# Wondering about raw



## ann g (May 6, 2010)

I have never wanted to feed raw but the more time I spend here, I'm beginning to have a lot of questions. First of all, my husband says he's stricly against it. 

Reasons

- he says its not safe
- we cant eat raw meat, so dogs shouldn't be able to either
-we knew people with rottwielers who were fed raw since puppies, 2 died unexpectantly around 3 and 4 yrs old
-not enough known of effects of long term feeding raw
- dogs have been domesticated long enough to not eat this way
-not safe to chew/eat bones
Now, my family rarely eats meat, I only eat poultry and frankly, the idea of handling raw meat grosses me out, BUT I want to keep my dog as healthy as possible and I want to learn about it as much as possible. My dog is very healthy, lean and is coat is great but could it all get better? 

A question of mine

- can you try raw while feeding kibble?

Now, I'm not deciding to feed raw right now, I just want some good honest information. Thanks everyone for any help you can provide me.


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## Paws&Tails (Sep 3, 2010)

ann g said:


> I have never wanted to feed raw but the more time I spend here, I'm beginning to have a lot of questions. First of all, my husband says he's stricly against it.
> 
> Reasons
> 
> ...



#1.
How is it not safe? 

#2.
That's absolutely ridiculous. Dogs are completely different from humans. 

#3.
Did you ever find out why or how they died? Or was it just automatically blamed on raw?

#4.
All I know is in the past week or two since Spike has been off of kibble he's done a complete 180. Same with everyone who feeds PMR.

#5.
Just because an animal has been domesticated does not mean their dietary needs change.


Feeding kibble in addition to raw is generally not recommended. They have very different digestion rates.

As far as gross factor, I am a vegetarian. I was very grossed out about the idea of it but did it anyways. He's my dog and my responsibility. It's not fair for him just because I don't want to touch the meat. I wore gloves in the beginning. Now I handle it bare-handed. I don't have a problem with it anymore. Now organs, on the other hand, I don't think I will ever touch bare-handed.


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## Mia (Oct 4, 2010)

Just because humans can't doesnt mean dogs can't. Dogs, wolves etc are a breed of their own. I guess that's where humans are at fault. We relate to dogs, as humans not as dogs. 

Think of this. Way before any of our time they never had kibble. They didn't have fifty different commercial food brands, chemicals, perservatives, all that. Dogs had what we had, or they got given raw. 

Long term effects, alot of testimonials are posted all through the net about how much of a difference PMR makes. Live longer, healthier, more active, not overweight, no odor, no tartar, less poop, more attention (focussed on you instead of being hungry), PMR is def less money for us, fur is softer/shiny, no issues with fleas, shedding reduces. How can it not be a good thing when you see benefits pop out. It means the body and food are cooperating. The dogs are in sync with what they should have been fed all along. 

I always say never say never, because there is always....hope. :smile: Rule out the questions, find the facts, then decide.

I was one of those yeah right uhmmm PMR? I honestly am so glad I switched.


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## SerenityFL (Sep 28, 2010)

There is no scientific data to PROVE that raw is good or bad except for the thousands of years that wolves have eaten raw food. There’s also the debate that dogs are omnivores, not carnivores. Everyone agrees that cats are carnivores but no one can agree on dogs. Science shows us dogs are carnivores and frankly, The Smithsonian Institute describes them as carnivores so, that’s where I stand.

My dogs are on week three of their raw diet. Already their eyes are even shinier and brighter than before...which is saying something considering they are puppies. They do. not. smell. There is NO doggy odor. None. I picked them up, I smelled all around them. There is no smell. Their...deposits are fewer and smaller because they are actually utilizing the food better. Their teeth I can’t really comment on yet because puppies usually have white teeth anyway but we’ll see what happens as they grow in adulthood.

They are happy, well fed and frankly, a lot calmer than before. Sure, they still get lively and playful, they’re puppies, but they aren’t as out of control as before. 

Now, about the food. They get a lot of chicken, WITH bones, yes. As long as the bones are NOT cooked, they will not splinter. It’s the cooked bones that become softer and splinter in their mouths. The only thing to make sure is that they don’t inhale the bone, that they chew it. My dogs chew. (By the way, this diet is so much better for their jaw muscles, they get a major work out.) They will get beef with bone, (nothing weight bearing, the bones can break their teeth), turkey drumsticks, turkey necks, gizzards, livers, kidney, lamb, ribs, eggs, some fish, just to name a handful.

All of it will be raw.

“But what about salmonella? Ecoli? Bacteria?”

First and foremost, dogs and cats have a shorter digestive track. That stuff doesn’t stay in their system as long as it does ours. It doesn’t have time to take hold like it does in our system. They may eat, say, chicken with salmonella but it will be deposited right back out and as long as you aren’t eating that dog’s deposits, you won’t get it from the dog.

Second, they are designed for this type of eating. Yes, we have domesticated dogs but all we’ve done is change their appearance and a bit of their temperament. We have NOT changed their inside anatomy. They have higher acid levels in their stomach, higher than humans. Their saliva has enzymes in it. They do not have chefs out in the wild, they eat their food raw, in the wild. We have changed them a bit but we haven’t changed them THAT much since we have domesticated them.

Third, keep in mind, commercial dog food has not been around that long. It was in the late 1800s that some dude came up with dog biscuits. Then canned food was developed. Then WWII came along and we needed all the metal we could get and pet food was NOT a priority for the war effort. Everyone went back to how they fed their dogs before. 

After the war, in around the 50s and 60s is when commercial dog and cat food started making a showing. My co-worker, who spent her youth in East Germany, says they didn’t HAVE dog food in their country. There was no such thing. They made their dog food just like people used to do before commercial dog food. Commercial dog food was a hit because it was faster, more convenient, less expensive and it went along with all the other stuff that came out in the 50s and 60s that were faster, more convenient and less expensive. Go look back and see what people used to feed their dogs. 

Fourth, there’s always the option to freeze the meat. Certain types of fish, for example, from the Pacific Northwest, should be put in to the freezer for some time before use to kill the bacteria it gets. (I forget the name.)

So, the cats and dogs are on raw. Why on earth they would want that dry food I do not know because it has all kinds of garbage in it that if you looked at it in a bowl, not all chopped and cooked and mashed together, you may wonder what you are doing feeding that to your animals. 

I didn’t know either. I heard talk of it. I had two vets in the past, one who told me that bones are nature's toothbrush, give them to my dog, not the ones from the pet store but bones from meat, uncooked. The other told me that all pet food you get at the store was utter "garbage" and it didn't matter what the brand was, it was all still garbage--in some cases you would just pay more for the same garbage.

Dogs are not humans. Dogs have not changed, internally since we domesticated them. Who said that the rott pups died from eating raw? Was it documented somewhere or just speculation? It's not safe to eat/chew COOKED bones. Raw bones are fine. 

Yes, you can give them kibble and some raw if you want to test it out for yourself. 

All of the information I have written has been gathered by extensive reading on the subject not just here on this forum but all over the place. Add to that the two vets who basically were telling me, "kibble is no good".

Whatever you decide, make sure you are doing for your dogs. These are your dogs, you obviously want them to be happy and healthy and no matter what you choose to do, no one here, that I know of, will give you a hard time for it. But if you're interested in raw, read, read, read, read, read. 

I would highly suggest you start off by reading what exactly goes in to that kibble you're feeding your dog.

I would then do a bit of studying of the dog anatomy. 

I would then read as much as possible from those who have raw fed for years.

I would then go back in history and find out what people fed their dogs before commercial dog food was invented.

Also, someone had a list somewhere, (maybe on this forum), that details the nutritional value of foods...very informative list. Very handy and helpful should anyone ever try to tell you that your dogs aren't getting enough of what they need.

Most of all, ask as many questions as you can think of. Ask away, people here are extremely nice and from my observations, I've discovered some intelligent people here, very well informed.


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## BrownieM (Aug 30, 2010)

I feed mine pre-made raw and kibble. Mine eat raw for breakfast and kibble for dinner. If you are hesitant to jump right in to buying your own meat and creating your own diet, this is a nice way to ease in. It is convenient and you still get many benefits from a pre-made raw diet. I feed mine Nature's Variety.

You could always try one meal a day of pre-made raw until your hubby gets used to the idea :wink: You will see many health benefits and improvements even on pre-made raw. Then you could transition to a 100% raw diet, like PMR.


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## sassymaxmom (Dec 7, 2008)

Here is a good rebuttal to all of your husband's concerns.The Many Myths of Raw Feeding

I eat raw fish sushi often and used to snitch ground beef from the pot and round steak slices from beef stroganoff before it was cooked and never got sick. I used to make royal icing from raw egg white without a problem too. I dare to eat raw tomatoes, spinach and carrots too. No peanut butter, I am allergic.

Things happen, many breeds have horrible defects that can kill before the dog is old. Unless you know what happened it could have happened no matter what those dogs ate.

Dogs have always eaten raw. Raw scraps. Small prey caught while wandering loose. Commercial food is a new fangled invention.

Dogs eat bone. I see coyote scat all the time. I can tell it is coyote poop because of the indigestible fur and seeds in it. No bones visible ever. My 20 pound terrier swallowed a gopher whole and no bones or teeth were ever seen. Max turns pork, chicken, turkey, rabbit, lamb, venison, fish, llama and even beef bone into a a uniform poop with no bone visible.

You can easily try a little raw while eating commercial food. Figure 2% of the weight of your dog so you are aware of the amount of food needed on a daily basis and substitute one meal for about half that amount of raw. A chicken quarter perhaps? Perhaps donate one of a holiday turkey's wings to the dog? Cut a couple beef [most of the bone will be left by most dogs] or pork ribs [bones are completely edible for larger dogs] off a rack going on the BBQ? 

Max was perfectly fine before raw. I hated his sticky outy fuzzy undercoat that felt nasty but no allergies and he ate and pooped fine. On raw that undercoat feels like the best velvet, is blacker and he eats and poops fine. His fur is about twice as long and much shinier. 

He is more sensible now, doesn't go into a tizzy about things like before. His teeth are much cleaner. I didn't expect that a not particularly athletic dog could gain 10% of his weight in muscle and get stronger at the age of 10 years but that happened as well. On kibble he could sit up. On raw he can sit up, stand up and jump off the ground. He is doing amazing things on the agility field these days. Even his stops on the contacts are easier for him now he has more muscle.

Lots of people go on about small non stinky poop. I don't really care about that but I am taking care of a kibble fed dog half Max's size right now that poops 3-4x as much as Max does. Person on poop patrol might care about that.


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## ann g (May 6, 2010)

First of all, thx for everyone who has answered so quickley. Do dogs get all the proper nutrients from raw, or should they be on supplements as well as a necessity?


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## cprcheetah (Jul 14, 2010)

- he says its not safe

This is my hubby's concern with the cats...he wants me to feed the dogs raw first as he's more attached to the cats ha ha....3 months so far my dogs are healthier than they were on kibble and no sicknesses (nor do I anticipate any). There have been recent articles in the news about kibble having salmonella, so which is safer?

- we cant eat raw meat, so dogs shouldn't be able to either

We are not dogs, and dogs are not humans, our digestive tracts are COMPLETELY different. As are our teeth. Dogs are carnivores. Humans are omnivores, compeletely different requirements.

-we knew people with rottwielers who were fed raw since puppies, 2 died unexpectantly around 3 and 4 yrs old

Was an autopsy performed? What was the cause of death? Rotties are prone to cancers, heart problems & other issues that can cause sudden death.

-not enough known of effects of long term feeding raw

Dogs ate raw LONG before they started eating kibble

- dogs have been domesticated long enough to not eat this way
Dogs are descendants of wolves. Kibble was only invented after WWII, before then dogs ate what their people ate both cooked & raw. Kibble was invented for convenience not necessity.

-not safe to chew/eat bones
If they are cooked yes that is correct, however raw is completely different.

- can you try raw while feeding kibble?
I started Shellie out on 50% raw (breakfast) and 50% kibble until I got another freezer, as long as you don't feed in the same meal, it's not a problem. She was fed that way for about a month and a half, and did just fine


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## Spaz (Sep 3, 2009)

ann g said:


> First of all, thx for everyone who has answered so quickley. Do dogs get all the proper nutrients from raw, or should they be on supplements as well as a necessity?


As long as you are feeding meat, bone and organs you shouldn't need to supplement. Some people do, some people don't. The only supplement I give Hannah when I remember to is Salmon oil capsules.


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## bully4life (Aug 9, 2010)

Ask your husband where they grow kibble in the wild !?!?


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## DaneMama (Jun 27, 2008)

Ann...you've gotten some wonderful replies! I really hope you have your husband read them! I think it would help a lot for you to read through all the pages from my website:

www.preymodelraw.com

Also, I just wanted to post up that I am SO proud of Paws&Tails, Rye&Ted, SerenityFL, and cprcheetah for their excellent replies. You guys are so new to raw but already have the knowledge and passion to be so influential to someone who is interested but skeptical of raw! You guys are awesome and keep up the good work!!!


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## SamWu1 (Oct 15, 2010)

I will never claim that a dog can't be healthy unless they're on a raw diet. However, there's no argument that fresh, unprocessed foods is better for the dog's health or for any living creature for that matter.

Raw meat is absolutely safe for dogs. The dog's digestive tract is designed for the digestion of raw meat, bones and fat. A canine's stomach juices are around 50% hydrochloric acid, and the food generally stays in an acidic condition for much longer than us, thus eliminating all pathogens in the process. In addition, the digestive tract is extremely short, so waste material moves out of the small intestine quickly before they have an opportunity to make the animal ill.

I can understand your husband's concern and I would never push someone to go raw unless they're ready to do so but to say raw is unsafe simply isn't fair. One of the longest lived dogs, a Blue Heeler from Australia lived to be 29 years of age eating nothing raw kangaroo and emu without much assistance of modern medicine, just good nutrition.

Finally, with all due respect, saying that we can't eat raw so dogs can't either is utterly ridiculous. You simply cannot compare humans and canines, we're of different species. Cattle thrive on fresh grass so perhaps he should graze it as well?


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## sassymaxmom (Dec 7, 2008)

I have found analysis of some meaty bones and use nutritiondata.com and the NRC requirements for dogs to calculate what my dog is eating. Just meat is fantastic nutrition. Add a bit of liver and other organs along with some bone and done. 

I give Max exactly what NRC recommends and need to add a bit of zinc, magnesium and manganese. I doubt they are really needed but he is a senior dog and gets a low percentage of his weight daily so I do it.

Kibble companies are constantly adjusting the formulas. They do not know it all. They only figured out about taurine and magnesium levels for cats recently when cats started being kept indoors. Feed fresh natural food and your dog will get the stuff the kibble companies don't know is missing from their overcooked and over processed food.


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## Mia (Oct 4, 2010)

bully4life said:


> Ask your husband where they grow kibble in the wild !?!?


LMAOOOOO!
I nearly spit out my juice with this comment. Too funny.


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## ann g (May 6, 2010)

bully4life said:


> Ask your husband where they grow kibble in the wild !?!?


I replayed this question back to my husband and he just gave me a nasty glaring look. ha ha


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## ann g (May 6, 2010)

I talked to my husband about all your posts and everything I've seen so far. He wants me to read up some more about feeding raw but agreed that its something we possibly could try. Again, thanks to everyone for all your responses. I will be sure visit the raw section more and learn everything I can. I also hope to visit bookstore and see if there's any good new books on the subject, if anyone knows any plz let me know.


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## whiteleo (Sep 7, 2008)

Try "raw meaty bones" by Tom Lonsdale, its a great read and very informative.


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## Mia (Oct 4, 2010)

whiteleo said:


> Try "raw meaty bones" by Tom Lonsdale, its a great read and very informative.


I second that!


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

you can also try 'work wonders' by tom lonsdale...

Raw Meaty Bones

and visit, if not already suggested: http://www.preymodelraw.com/

google 'tom lonsdale'.....it's a good start.


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