# You all know more than the Vets - HELP!! puppy scratching herself raw



## Kimber (Apr 9, 2011)

I am new to this site and forums in general.
I have read the posts "Yeasty Paws" and "Itching Puppy" as well as many others here.
I haven't quite seen our puppy's symptoms. Here's a quick rundown:
She is almost 5 mths old - large mixed breed, we were told Austrailian Shepherd/Blue Heeler. 30 pounds now. she was a rescue situation - on her way to the pound, I took her in.
We have had her 2 months. 4 trips to the Vet for scratching.
1st trip: yeast infection in her ears, round worms, 1 tick, a few fleas
2nd trip: infection and worms gone, skin scraping for mange, scrip to ease itching. no mange found
3rd trip: she is literally bleeding from the scratching. Found 1 flea on her. Another scraping, no mange found, a second flea prevention and oral preventative, Temaril-P for itching. Symptoms eased and skin begin to heal. Finished Temaril-P and within 2 days, the scratching returned, skin became raw and bleeding.
4th trip: A third flea preventative and oral dose, another scraping-no mange found, refill Temaril-P. Found 3 fleas the next day. but the scratching is much better and skin is healing.

The Problem: I am almost out of the scrip - and am afraid the scratching will start again!

Diet: I was told she was on Puppy Chow when we got her. I put her on Nutro Puppy.
When I noticed the constant scratching, I began researching- then spent a month switching her to Castor & Pollux Organix and now on to their Natural Ultramix Puppy - they have no wheat. She has been on Natural Ultramix for 2 weeks - and no wheat in treats, etc...the only problem there, is now she seems gassy - whew!

Vets response: says it's unusual for puppy's her age to exhibit food allergies or even environmental allergies. Thinks she has an extreme reaction to even a few flea bites.

Other info: at times we have felt a moistness in her skin around the tummy and chest - almost like sweating.
She has had a strange odor at these times - not just puppy smell
Her scratching is mostly on her underside from the neck to the rear.

I know this is long - but I am going for 'thorough'. 
I have read the posts regarding Apple Cider Vinegar and probiotics.
Do you all think they could help in this situation.
Thank you very much for considering our problem.


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## Tobi (Mar 18, 2011)

I personally don't know much about the ACV as i haven't started it on my guy, i have seen some AMAZING results from it though in pups with allergies. Personally if mine was having this problem and i have exhausted the vets remedies, i would be going with something else, like the ACV i don't think it could hurt anything. are you using any topicals for the affected area? medicated shampoo etc?

I've been recommended for skin allergies by many people to use "distilled white vinegar" 50/50 split with water after bathing you just wash them down in that mixture scrubbing as you go and then rinse one more time, i have also seen many before and afters using this method as well, they had some of the same symptoms as your pup, scratching hair loss etc, and it began to relieve them. you can try these but i am by no means absolute they will work, it is just from things that i would try that were recommended to me for mine.

and a :bump: for more help


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## DaneMama (Jun 27, 2008)

Hello and welcome! Sorry to read your puppy is so uncomfortable! 

The "sweating" you see/feel is a reaction of the skin to extreme irritation, kinda like oozing. Either way its a sign of skin in need to desperate help. 

I personally would get her off all kibble and go for something like a prey model raw diet. That way you know exactly what she is eating, so that if its a food allergy you can do process of elimination. A diet like this will also jump start her immune system to help her fight off bugs like fleas and get rid of yeasty problems. There's a wealth of information here on raw feeding and we will all be happy to answer your questions. 

For the time being I would keep her on the Temaril P to keep her itching under control. The ideal scenario with Temaril is to find the lowest effective dose that will keep her comfortable until it can be weeded out completely.


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## dogmom (Aug 14, 2010)

My 7 year old Shih Tzu had very similar problems from the time he was 2 years old. Over the years I've used Malaseb medicated shampoo and the Malaseb spray for in-between baths. He had a lot of ear infections and his hair was completely gone in a large area on his chest and the skin was red and irritated in this bald area. He also had that "moist" feeling and the "odd smell" you refer to. The vet used to prescribe 4 mg of Chorpheniramine which is an antihistimine and really helped with the itching. There would be 30 in the bottle for around $8.00. One day one of the other vets told me you could buy this same medicine at the drug store so I now buy a bottle at Walmart with 100 tablets for around $2.75. I would give 1/2 a tablet twice a day for my 15 lb. dog. If you want to try these they're in the allergy isle and the bottle reads "Equate Chlortabs Chorpheniramine Maleate" and it's the 4 MG dose.

However, I was only treating the systems and not solving the problem. I stumbled across this site last August and realized that his problems were probably food related (don't get me started, but he was on Science Diet ZD Ultra at the vet's suggestion). I had nothing to lose so I immediately started both my dogs on PMR and all their problems disappeared. It took 5 months for the hair to fully grow back on his chest but in that time he was no longer itchy, smelly or moist feeling. Also, I don't remember the last time either of them had an ear infection.

I still keep the Chlortabs on hand for environmental allergies and occassionally take one myself and probably will today since I can't breathe with all the pollen.


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## Kimber (Apr 9, 2011)

Wow! I am so impressed with the posters here and the time you are giving me. Thank you for the recommendations.
I will begin researching the Raw Diet. And I will compare what the Vet is giving me to the drug at WalMart. I will also try the apple cider vinegar and a vinegar wash after a bath. I am using and oatmeal shampoo on her, but it doesn't seem to help.
Again, thank you for welcoming me- and for your input. Please keep me updated with other remedies you know of. I will let you know if we make any progress.
DaneMama - I especially appreciate the info about the "sweating" as my Vet seemed confounded.
thanks!


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## 3Musketeers (Nov 4, 2010)

About the oatmeal shampoo, if the pup does have some sort of allergy, maybe to grains, it could be possible that the oatmeal in the shampoo could make it worse as well.
Raw really would be the best way to go, you could also try using a shampoo with no oatmeal, and no irritants (no sodium laureth sulfate) etc.


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## Kimber (Apr 9, 2011)

Thank you for the great suggestion. I hadn't considered that oatmeal might be an irritant. 
I also found a flea on her last night. And she has been scratching like crazy for a couple of days. Vet says treat with another dose of Vectra preventative. And refilled her Temeril-P. It has only been 2 weeks since her last Vectra. This has been the pattern. The 30 day dose only seems to work for 2 weeks. 
Anyone else know of a successful prevention.?
Thanks again.


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## Jack Monzon (Jul 25, 2010)

Kimber said:


> Vets response: says it's unusual for puppy's her age to exhibit food allergies or even environmental allergies.


My dog has had allergies since he was 7 months old (when I adopted him). I don't know why age would matter for something like environmental allergies.

I would seek the advice of an animal dermatologist/allergist. You can have environmental allergies tested and treated. Switching food was a good move, but keep in mind that it can take 10-12 weeks to see results -- IF the allergies are food-related, which the majority are not. Most allergies in dogs are environmental. I don't know anything about the food your feeding now, but hopefully it has no common ingredients with the previous food. 

Allergies can be caused by something seemingly benign -- your laundry detergent, fabric softener, carpet powder, floor cleaner, etc. Think about all the things in your puppy's environment and try to switch to allergen-free versions if possible. I bought an air purifier and a humidifier, and a Dyson vacuum cleaner. I also towel him off after EVERY trip outside with microfiber towels. Things have been great since last summer, but I'm bracing for the change in seasons.


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## RaisingWolves (Mar 19, 2011)

My pup came to me at 17 weeks old eating a kibble with 3rd ingredient corn gluten (yum, corn gluten is a herbicide... perfect food for a dog.:tsk:).
I promised the breeder I would keep her on kibble and I tried to honor that but I couldn't.
The first day I picked her up, I noticed she had redish brown gunk in her ears. Our vet noticed it immediately. We used ear drops, the infection came back. 
My pup was scratching so much, I kept running a flea comb through her coat...no fleas. She was waking up from a sound sleep every night to scratch herself like crazy (her crate is next to my bed). 
By 5 months old she had black nail beds, staining between her paws, bad breath, and puppy vaginitis. I know many people will say PV is normal, but it is another indication the immune system is in overdrive. 

Two weeks after the switch from artificial food (kibble) to whole, fresh raw prey model, the scratching was subsiding and her ears cleared up. She was no longer waking up from a sound sleep scratching and only scratching herself a few times a day. The feet took several months. FYI, Google dog's yeast overgrowth.

I supplemented the raw diet with heavy doses of probiotics (Wysong Innoculant & iFlora Critical Care). 

Health begins from within....it's that simple. You know the old saying...you are what you eat is 100% true. Change the diet to a species appropriate and whole foods. Dr. Becker makes a good point about feeding your dog a raw diet vs. kibble....You wouldn't raise your children on meal replacement bars, would you?

Hey, if we're wrong and this is environmental....your dog will have a stronger immune system to deal with everything else. 


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G3wLTlqnMMg


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

Kimber said:


> Wow! I am so impressed with the posters here and the time you are giving me. Thank you for the recommendations.
> I will begin researching the Raw Diet. And I will compare what the Vet is giving me to the drug at WalMart. I will also try the apple cider vinegar and a vinegar wash after a bath. I am using and oatmeal shampoo on her, but it doesn't seem to help.
> Again, thank you for welcoming me- and for your input. Please keep me updated with other remedies you know of. I will let you know if we make any progress.
> DaneMama - I especially appreciate the info about the "sweating" as my Vet seemed confounded.
> thanks!


not trying to push on you, honest, but if ever there was a dog who belongs on a raw diet, which is less scary than what you're going through now...this baby is it.

i wish you the best of luck.


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## chowder (Sep 7, 2008)

If you aren't ready to try a raw diet yet, you could go to a food without as many allergens in it as the Castor n Pollox. These are the ingredients in the puppy version and I've highlighted all the ones that are known dog allergens. (my own dogs have bad reactions to flaxseed, yeast, oats, salmon, and cranberries.) It also contains salt and sugar which are not needed in dog food. I had to look up milo :nerd: but it is a variety of grass or grain (like sorghum). 

Chicken, Chicken Meal, Turkey Meal, *Milo*, *Ground Whole Oats*, *Ground Whole Barley*, Dried Bananas, Chicken Fat (Naturally preserved with Mixed Tocopherols and Citric Acid), *Brown Rice*, Dried Peas, Natural Chicken Flavor, salmon, Tomato Pomace, *Brewers Dried Yeast*, *Ground Whole Flaxseed*, Dried Sweet Potatoes, Dried Carrots, Dried Egg Product, Potassium Chloride, Salt, Freeze Dried Peas, Dried Cranberries, Dicalcium Phosphate, Fructooligosaccharide, Calcium Carbonate, Zinc Sulfate, Vitamin E Supplement, Choline Chloride, Ferrous Sulfate, Niacin, Copper Sulfate, Thiamine Mononitrate, Calcium Pantothenate, Vitamin A Supplement, Manganous Oxide, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride, Sodium Selenite, Riboflavin, Vitamin D3 Supplement, Biotin, Vitamin B12 Supplement, Calcium Iodate, Folic Acid, Rosemary Extract.

Try and find a canned 95% meat or a high meat content kibble without all the extra ingredients and see if that helps.


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

if you're not wanting or ready to go raw, which is fine, have you considered cooking your dog's food....in this way, you'd be in complete control of what the puppy ate.


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## Kimber (Apr 9, 2011)

[QUOTEI would seek the advice of an animal dermatologist/allergist. You can have environmental allergies tested and treated. Switching food was a good move, but keep in mind that it can take 10-12 weeks to see results -- IF the allergies are food-related, which the majority are not. Most allergies in dogs are environmental. I don't know anything about the food your feeding now, but hopefully it has no common ingredients with the previous food. 

wow, I didn't know it would take 10 -12 weeks to see results!! whew. I think the dermatologist is our next step - unfortunately....


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## Kimber (Apr 9, 2011)

Chowder:
Thank you for taking the time to list the suspect ingredients. I had actually given her liquid flaxseed in an effort to improve her coat! yeesh - what a wrong move!


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## Kimber (Apr 9, 2011)

By the way, I will try the 95% canned.
Have any of you ever given "Food Grade Diotimacious (sp?) Earth" to your dogs to help repel fleas???
I have read that an approx. 1/2 teaspoon added to food, can help them repel fleas... a little scary...


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## Unosmom (May 3, 2009)

are you using any medicated shampoos? it almost sounds like yeast/bacterial infection due to allergies. I've had good results with zymox products, so I would get a shampoo and rinse 
Amazon.com: Zymox Medicated Pet Shampoo, 12-Ounce: Home & Garden

Amazon.com: Zymox Medicated Antibacterial Pet Rinse, 12-Ounce: Home & Garden

as far as diet goes, raw or homecooked is the best way to narrow down an allergy but if you want to try a kibble, I'd pick california natural, pinnacle or nutrisca (lamb/chickpea). It would also help to add fish oil to the diet.

As far as D-earth, I dont see how it would get rid of fleas internally, just worms, but you can use it externally. I dont use topical flea treatments anymore since d-earth works pretty well, there are few downsides like being messy and it must be reapplied if the dog gets wet. I use a spice bottle to apply it on the fur and then brush it in. Focusing especially around the neck area, and base of tail. I would also advice covering dogs face with a towel while applyng the powder since it dehydrates moist tissue and can be very irritating. When you purchase d-earth, make sure its food grade and not treated with chemicals.


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## Kimber (Apr 9, 2011)

Thank you for the Zymox recommendation. And the DE application tips. I went to a specialized pet food store yesterday and they didn't have any. I'm going to try Whole Foods today.


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## Unosmom (May 3, 2009)

I couldnt find it locally either, so I ended up ordering a 10 lb bag online.


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## Syd (Apr 6, 2011)

I've had dogs almost my entire life, but our new puppy was the first like this...Now 7 months old, he has been itching himself raw for the last few months. It has been really stressful for us.
We have tried Orijen, Nutrisca (lamb and chickpea), Wellness, Grandma Lucys (very expensive dehydrated), Honest Kitchen (very expensive dehydrated), Blue, Evo...No change at all. The only food that he does somewhat decent on is Nutro (a horrible quality of food)...

We are on day 6 of raw feeding (the first day or two I gave him raw chicken, lamb and beef, before switching to just the chicken quarters)...He is doing so much better. He was allergic to chicken in dog food (chicken, fish, potato and sweet potato were his main ones, but I suspect grains bothered him as well, just to a lesser extent)...But he is doing awesome with the raw chicken.

My wife is a vegetarian, and was not thrilled with the idea of having him eat raw (she thought it would be unsanitary, but acknowledged it was likely healthier). But to have him stop itching, it has been worth it.

After all the dog foods we've tried, looking back, I think his body just reacts strongly to carb's (esp cooked carb's) and it messes up his digestive system. Obviously with him able to eat raw chicken, he's not allergic to chicken.

By the way we tried ACV, probiotics, Chia, Salmon Oil, Chlorella etc...Nothing changed.


His last month before the switch we spent $355 on his food and supplements!


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

Syd said:


> I've had dogs almost my entire life, but our new puppy was the first like this...Now 7 months old, he has been itching himself raw for the last few months. It has been really stressful for us.
> We have tried Orijen, Nutrisca (lamb and chickpea), Wellness, Grandma Lucys (very expensive dehydrated), Honest Kitchen (very expensive dehydrated), Blue, Evo...No change at all. The only food that he does somewhat decent on is Nutro (a horrible quality of food)...
> 
> We are on day 6 of raw feeding (the first day or two I gave him raw chicken, lamb and beef, before switching to just the chicken quarters)...He is doing so much better. He was allergic to chicken in dog food (chicken, fish, potato and sweet potato were his main ones, but I suspect grains bothered him as well, just to a lesser extent)...But he is doing awesome with the raw chicken.
> ...


it's such a feeling, isn't it? 

i'm so very pleased for you..

and, as i've said, for myself........ i wished i had heeded the warning signs of every kibble that made my dogs' ears icky, their coats dull, the slight lethargy....smack me upside the head.....and start looking for different answers years ago. but. we live. we learn. and then we see the miracle.

i'm very happy for you.


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## Jack Monzon (Jul 25, 2010)

Syd said:


> I've had dogs almost my entire life, but our new puppy was the first like this...Now 7 months old, he has been itching himself raw for the last few months. It has been really stressful for us.
> We have tried Orijen, Nutrisca (lamb and chickpea), Wellness, Grandma Lucys (very expensive dehydrated), Honest Kitchen (very expensive dehydrated), Blue, Evo...No change at all. The only food that he does somewhat decent on is Nutro (a horrible quality of food)...
> 
> We are on day 6 of raw feeding (the first day or two I gave him raw chicken, lamb and beef, before switching to just the chicken quarters)...He is doing so much better. He was allergic to chicken in dog food (chicken, fish, potato and sweet potato were his main ones, but I suspect grains bothered him as well, just to a lesser extent)...But he is doing awesome with the raw chicken.
> ...


Awesome story. Please keep us all posted on your puppy's progress in the coming weeks/months!


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## RaisingWolves (Mar 19, 2011)

Syd said:


> I've had dogs almost my entire life, but our new puppy was the first like this...Now 7 months old, he has been itching himself raw for the last few months. It has been really stressful for us.
> We have tried Orijen, Nutrisca (lamb and chickpea), Wellness, Grandma Lucys (very expensive dehydrated), Honest Kitchen (very expensive dehydrated), Blue, Evo...No change at all. The only food that he does somewhat decent on is Nutro (a horrible quality of food)...
> 
> We are on day 6 of raw feeding (the first day or two I gave him raw chicken, lamb and beef, before switching to just the chicken quarters)...He is doing so much better. He was allergic to chicken in dog food (chicken, fish, potato and sweet potato were his main ones, but I suspect grains bothered him as well, just to a lesser extent)...But he is doing awesome with the raw chicken.
> ...



This is awesome! I'm so happy for you and your pup! :clap2:


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## Khan (Jan 17, 2010)

I am sorry to hear you and your pup are going through all this. As someone who can attest, as many of the previous posters, going raw was what saved our house!
As a baby, Khan was at the vet time and time again due to explosion butt! We did test after test for parasites, which always came back negative. He was eating massive amounts of food, only to have them come out the other end yet he was underweight. At 6-7 months old, he was bordering on being malnourished. Finally after spending months trying every kind of kibble on the store shelf, I found that a cure for malabsorption is feeding an animal a raw diet. When he was 8months old I took the plunge and started him on raw. Within a week, the black yeasty gunk in his ears was almost completely gone, and the licking chewing started to subside. In the first month he gained over 10lbs! That was over a year ago! Since then, he has NOT been back to the vet!
I encourage you to check into feeding raw. My husband thought I had truly lost it, when I explained to him what I was going to "try" as my last resort to help this little guy. 
After a few months, he asked why I hadn't switched the other 2 dogs off kibble! It really was a life changer for Khan.
Good luck!


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## Kimber (Apr 9, 2011)

*to Syd*

Wow - it sounds like a similar tale. I just purchased ACV and probiotics today. As well as, Wellness grain-free canned. oh and a topical spray. You are 2 months into my future! I would be interested to hear if your puppy continues to improve beyond the 6 days.
Have you ever been told that his allergies were environmental? My vet says extreme sensetivity to flea bites is a best guess. Even 1 or 2 will cause all this scratching. I really didn't expect this out of a 'mutt' haha...
Also, since we are still 'house breaking' what changes in bowels did you notice. Runny? loose? more frequent?
And did you switch gradually - or just began to serve raw one day??
I added some photos that i took this morning. She was asleep... this is the improved skin after beginning our 3rd round of Temaril P. It may be hard to tell, but the photo of her neck under what little fur there is - is red and scratched...Did yours look similar?
thanks for weighing in...

By the way,
1st pic = pup laying on her back with neck and chest exposed. fur is almost gone - red scratches can be seen underneath
2nd pic = left hind leg with bits of fur missing where she has chewed it out
3rd pic = abdomin showing red rash and scratches.
No animals were harmed in the making of this story!! hahaha! She was sound asleep, like a ragdoll.


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## Syd (Apr 6, 2011)

I've been feeding 2x day. No treats at all. Only raw. 99% of his meals have been chicken quarters. Poops are solid (with the exception of day 1, and the day I gave him a bit of raw fish). His poops are much smaller. He was pooping _at least_ 4x/day. Now we are seeing 2 small poops a day.

Day 1 his first stool was runny, and the 2nd was 50% solid.

He had runny stools on Sunday when I gave him the raw fish. He also was gaseous for the first time since we went to the PMR.

As far as transitioning, there was no gradual change. 100% all in from day 1.

I can't really tell what I'm looking at in the first 2 pic's. The 3rd one is the same as what he had. 

Like you say, time will tell, but he's essentially a normal dog now. I don't think things will go back. I wouldn't be surprised if he had some meats he is more sensitive to, but for the most part I think he just needed to eat what a dog is supposed to eat.

Good luck to you. I think if you commit to the change and doing it properly (exactly as it is recommended here), you will see a very nice change. My puppy had never been on any med's (I didn't want to go that route) so possibly your 'results' _may _take a little longer.


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## Kimber (Apr 9, 2011)

Syd - thank you.
I put my big toe in today. I fed her chicken tenders that were slightly cooked this a.m.
And tonight, a slightly cooked half chickent breat and one undercooked chicken liver.
I am going to try this under cooking method for a week (you've inspired me since your had results in 6 days). If i get braver, I'll put the raw chicken out there.
What about thighs?? any opinions?
again, thanks!


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## Syd (Apr 6, 2011)

Good work Kimber...
Just to let you know, my puppy was actually allergic to chicken before the raw. So, I'm guessing that means there is something about cooked chicken that doesn't work for him...possibly the denaturing of he proteins???


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

Kimber said:


> Syd - thank you.
> I put my big toe in today. I fed her chicken tenders that were slightly cooked this a.m.
> And tonight, a slightly cooked half chickent breat and one undercooked chicken liver.
> I am going to try this under cooking method for a week (you've inspired me since your had results in 6 days). If i get braver, I'll put the raw chicken out there.
> ...


for your baby, nothing is more important than going slowly...one protein at a time. that way, you'll know right off if she reacts to something.

liver is something that usually waits for a few months of eating raw or slightly undercooked....because it is so rich and can give your dog the squirts because her system isn't ready.

more importantly, one protein at a time, especially chicken because it's the most easily digested.....gives her body a chance to adjust.....and keeps everything simple and orderly.

speed is not your friend....and if you're feeding boneless undercooked chicken, that's fine. but you will need something for bone...and since you can't cook bone...what you can do is get some human grade bone meal (NOW is a good brand)..otherwise, you could very easily give her diarrhea....

syd is feeding leg quarters, so his dog is getting bone....yours is not.....see?


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## Kimber (Apr 9, 2011)

Again - thank you. I hadn't thought that slightly cooking the chicken could be altering the allergen producers...

Magicre - 


> [/speed is not your friend....and if you're feeding boneless undercooked chicken, that's fine. but you will need something for bone...and since you can't cook bone...what you can do is get some human grade bone meal (NOW is a good brand)..otherwise, you could very easily give her diarrhea....QUOTE
> 
> What happens when you cook bone? does it splinter? And what about feeding a raw thigh, bone and all?? or even a slightly cooked thigh? I suppose I'm cooking the chicken because I'm so squeamish about handing her a raw piece of meat!!
> 
> ...


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

Kimber said:


> Again - thank you. I hadn't thought that slightly cooking the chicken could be altering the allergen producers...
> 
> _Magicre -
> 
> ...


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## Kimber (Apr 9, 2011)

ok, I give.
She just had a very runny bm...
I've got a few fresh raw thighs from Whole Foods - I'm going to give her one for dinner. I don't have time to hit the store before dinner. But tomorrow, it's chicken wings.
Magicre - you and every one else here have convinced me. You have been very gentle and understanding in your persuasion.
I'll let you know tomorrow how it goes... oh, what did you mean by 'heavier' bone?? something besides chicken?
thanks again.
By the way, I too am a horse rider. I volunteer at a therapeutic equstrian facility. LOVE it. I hated it when my mom fed our cats horsemeat...


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

Kimber said:


> ok, I give.
> She just had a very runny bm...
> I've got a few fresh raw thighs from Whole Foods - I'm going to give her one for dinner. I don't have time to hit the store before dinner. But tomorrow, it's chicken wings.
> Magicre - you and every one else here have convinced me. You have been very gentle and understanding in your persuasion.
> ...


i don't mean a heavier bone, but a bone heavier meal....like a chicken back....which is what many of us started with. if you can't find them, buy whole chickens on sale and cut them up. food network won't care if it's not a work of art....get a cleaver, a carving knife and a good set of kitchen scissors...

but you might have a butcher..or even the butcher at whole foods might give you 'crab' bait or 'bait'...of the waste from chickens that end up being ground...might ask about backs...

if you have a butcher in town...ask about backs...my first batch came from a butcher local to me and i bought them in bulk, because user error was me and i think my dogs were on chicken for a month LOL....i had screwed up badly enough....it's a wonder they still love me LOL

and now, they can eat anything, but in the back of my head.....when i feed venison heart, which is crack to my dogs and does produce a looser stool if more than one meal is given.....there is always drumsticks or chicken frames or backs....for the meal before and the meal two meals later....because eventually, you get to know what causes loose stools...beef is richer than chicken..

that's why many of us start out that way...

the biggest thing is overfeeding...that's the biggest i made and most people make....so i'm not sure i remember how much your baby should get in a day.

i feed an 18 lb. pug and a 36 lb. corgi mix.

in the beginning, after i learned my lesson the hard way...the six ounces that bubba gets per day, was more like 4.5 ounces per day....it only lasted a week, but he didn't starve....and he got no treats. no veggies. no human cooked food. just raw chicken.

when we graduated to drumsticks, we learned he was a gulper.....see, every step of the way, we learn things...because he swallowed the whole thing...not one crunch. and that's a story unto itself....

but do you see what i'm saying....bone heavy in the beginning..not heavy bone..so i don't recommend thighs in the beginning, unless your dog is gigunda in size....: )


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## doggiedad (Jan 23, 2011)

my first thought is find another Vet or a
specialist. maybe she's allgergic to something
that you're feeding, maybe it's something in your house
or yard, the water, something you clean with.


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## Kimber (Apr 9, 2011)

Thank you for the personal account - i think it's just what i need.
My pup is 30 lbs. at not quite 5 months.
In an effort to avoid overfeeding her... I just gave her 1 chicken wing and picked off the meat of 1 thigh. I hope this was enough for tonight - with the runny stool, I am trying to be conservative...
I do see what you mean about the bone-heavy meal... it just seems to go against everything I think I'm supposed to do!! whew!
She licked all over the wing - then finally devoured it in seconds, a few crunches and gone! I hope I don't have a drumstick chugger!! glad to hear of your success!
thanks!


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