# It Starts



## CoverTune

As I type this, the dogs are in their crates... Corona with a chicken wing, George with a drumstick. Here we go!


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## twoisplenty

Enjoy babies!!!!!


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## Herzo

Good luck. Crunch, crunch. Num num


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## CoverTune

Is it normal for there to be "shards" of bone left behind? George gobbles up most everything, but after both meals now he's left behind some bits of bone.

I should also add that last night, he got so excited he jumped up on top of Corona's crate (with her in it!) when I was telling him to get in his bed (crate) for dinner.. never done that before!! lol


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## CoverTune

George had diarrhea this morning, and vomited twice. Corona wasn't super excited for dinner tonight, but she did eat it all.

Can anyone offer any tricks or tips for getting the skin off? It's taking me forever to prepare their meals cuz I'm trying to cut and tear off all the skin and I'm getting frustrated.


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## xellil

The shards of bone are normal I think. 

Sorry i can't help with the skin - I never took it off. It sure does seem like alot of work, but I know quite a few people do it. If I had to do that, I'd probably just give them pork loin because I am lazy.

To me, it would be easier to take skin off a drumstick than something like a chicken wing. I also feed my smaller dog chicken necks - I get them skinned and they are easy to eat.

I'm not sure if the real experts are around to help tonight, because I'm not one of them, but it doesn't sound like things are too terribly off. The diarrhea and vomiting obviously needs to be worked on, but if all he's had is a skinless chicken leg - how big is he? Is that maybe too much meat? Did you give them breakfast?


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## meggels

Yup, wings are a pain in the arse to get skin off. I would get 90% of it off but it would take several minutes. I would mostly cut and pull with my fingers.


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## CoverTune

George is about 14lbs. I've been cutting off most of the meat, and feeding 1 in the AM and 1 in the PM. He probably needs a bit more than that, but I'd rather start out small.

Also, Corona has been licking her feet like a maniac. Gosh I hope she's not allergic to chicken. hwell:


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## xellil

Well i think you are supposed to start out with a low amount of food, to avoid digestive upset. For George, two percent of his body weight is about 4.5 oz per day. Are you somewhere around there?

Snorkels licks her feet all the time - but it's not allergies, it's because after she eats a bone she has grease on her feet. Could it be that?


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## happygirlx3

Maybe a drumstick is too much food for the 14lbs dog? My dog is about 25lbs and drumsticks are too much for her. We started her out on chicken wings and on bone-in days all she eats is 1 chicken wing. She's still pudgy! hwell:


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## CoverTune

I don't have a scale, but I'm guessing he is between 4 and 5oz per day. Like I said, I'm cutting off almost all the meat.. but maybe I should try something like 1 drumstick and 1 wing instead? He's a touch on the thin side though. I think he may have had diarrhea again last night, he woke me up around 4am, which he has never done before, and raced outside - I just haven't been out yet to find the evidence.

Corona is licking all throughout the day, not just after meals.

Really really appreciate the feedback, thank you!


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## Liz

Hi, I just saw your thread. Your George should get about 4.5 ounces per day. That's 2%. personally I start my dogs at about 1.5 - 1.75% until they are stable. Also with a small dog you might want to try cornish game hen (just little chicken) - they weight about 24 ounces each so three would probably feed your tow dgos for a little over a week. The bones are softer and they are easier to feed and skin if you choose. JMHO If your little guy is getting 2 drumstick that could defintately be too much and could cause loose stools.


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## CoverTune

Just took George outside and he "peed out of his a**", it couldn't even be called diarrhea, it was pure liquid, and seemed painful. I'm thisclose to quitting raw, my boy is miserable.


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## xellil

i would be considering quitting also. I'm sorry - there are ways to fix this, but I just don't know enough about it to tell you. Maybe someone else will. I hate for you to quit so soon after you start.l


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## RachelsaurusRexU

Feeding too much will cause loose stool. I would reduce the amount you're feeding and consider going with something like chicken necks. They're bone heavy and generally already skinned. Make sure your chicken is not enhanced!


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## Amy18

Poor George, it always pains me to read these threads of people having such a tough time transitioning. I was lucky to have a smooth switch with mine. I don't have any advice to offer but don't give up so fast, the experts will chime in and i'm sure there is a solution. One thing though, i would consider buying a small kitchen scale. I was eyeballing when i first started but when i got the scale discovered i was way overfeeding


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## xellil

Amy18 said:


> Poor George, it always pains me to read these threads of people having such a tough time transitioning. I was lucky to have a smooth switch with mine. I don't have any advice to offer but don't give up so fast, the experts will chime in and i'm sure there is a solution. One thing though, i would consider buying a small kitchen scale. I was eyeballing when i first started but when i got the scale discovered i was way overfeeding


That's a good point. I was eyeballing at first also, and my eyeball of four ounces was about 9 ounces.


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## whiteleo

Definitely go with Liz's advise, Cornish hen's as i've never seen them enhanced and they are softer bones. Feeding too much definitely will cause loose to liquid stool. Please make sure that all poultry that you feed is not enhanced....


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## CoverTune

I've never seen a Cornish hen available, but I'll keep an eye out. My concern about feeding him a chicken wing is that he's just going to swallow it whole, which he has done before. Any idea how to prevent that? And if he's eating such small, soft bones, he's going to miss out on all the benefits of chewing and tearing...


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## whiteleo

Right now the issue is getting the enzyme levels up in his gut to be able to process the bones, that happens over time..Raw feeding is a process and you want to always start slow....Once he is able to digest well and have solid poo for a couple weeks then you can worry about the ripping and tearing part. If you have a worry about the wings you can always hold it while he chews at it and never leave your dogs unattended while eating. Cornish hens are usually found in the freezer section...Good Luck!


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## CoverTune

Is there anything I can do in the immediate moment to help his tummy?


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## xellil

I think not eating for awhile should help. And people also recommend slippery elm and probiotics, I think. For big dogs, they suggest fasting for a day and starting over. Not sure if that's appropriate for dogs your size, though.


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## naturalfeddogs

CoverTune said:


> George had diarrhea this morning, and vomited twice. Corona wasn't super excited for dinner tonight, but she did eat it all.
> 
> Can anyone offer any tricks or tips for getting the skin off? It's taking me forever to prepare their meals cuz I'm trying to cut and tear off all the skin and I'm getting frustrated.


​Yep, bone is normal at first. As far as the skin removal, run the chicken under warm water while you are removing it. For some reason, that seems to take away the slippery "Slime" feeling.


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## DaneMama

I'm so sorry your little one is having issues, but I hope you don't give up yet. From the sounds of it he's just got an upset tummy from too much food, from too much fat/skin right off the bat, or both. Unfortunately some dogs have a harder time with it in the beginning so they need a little more help. Once the initial transition is over you wont have to do so much prep all the time. I think if you stick with raw you'll be happier in the long run with the results. Just be patient and try not to worry too much...we are all here to help you and most of us have gone through what you have. I've been there with dogs with "cannon butt" diarrhea! 

Fast him for a day, so that his system can settle down. Only give him fresh water to drink, but no food or treats. 

I would go with Cornish game hens (they are usually located in the frozen food section in the store...not with the fresh meats) or chicken wings with the skin removed. You can use a kitchen mallet or a hammer to smash up the bones in the wing if you're worried about him swallowing it whole. Keep the wing intact so that it becomes just a blob of meat and bones all stuck together. Once he's done fasting just give him ONE small meal that first day. See how he does with that. If all goes well give him TWO small meals the next day. Very gradually add more food in until he's at a good maintenance level. 

Please keep us posted and I hope this helps!


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## CoverTune

Thanks for the help.. I'm barely hangin' on!

Running warm water over the chicken while removing the skin actually did help a little, thanks for that tip!

I feel like I got almost no sleep last night.. I was up every 2 hours letting Corona out. George went out once and had diarrhea as well. This morning I only gave them each a TINY piece of meat.

I'm curious.. I've had them on pre made raw before and never had issues like this, the transitions were always simple and smooth. I've got 3lbs of Nature's Variety Lamb in my freezer.. what if I were to try feeding that for a few days, do you think that would make the transition to "real raw" any easier?


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## magicre

CoverTune said:


> George is about 14lbs. I've been cutting off most of the meat, and feeding 1 in the AM and 1 in the PM. He probably needs a bit more than that, but I'd rather start out small.
> 
> Also, Corona has been licking her feet like a maniac. Gosh I hope she's not allergic to chicken. hwell:


the one thing you don't want to do is change their proteins....that surely will give them cannon butt...

stay the course...you can make some chicken broth and give that to them, whilst resting their stomachs...you can also give slippery elm bark or aloe juice....

the obvious question is to ask if the chicken is enhanced. nutritional panels will tell the story. foster farm chickens, for instance have 80 mg. per 4 oz serving.

this is why we fed backs...easier to get the skin off.....my little one was eating drummettes and it was hell getting the skin off those...so we went to back, stripped the skin and excess fat and kidneys off and fed him a half in the morning and a half in the evening. he got 6 oz total for the day.....and a whole back was about 6 oz.

it was a real pain in the arse for a few months.....looking back, it was worth it, although there were days when i asked my self why i was doing this?

i look at my dogs now and it was so worth it......


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## DaneMama

CoverTune said:


> I feel like I got almost no sleep last night.. I was up every 2 hours letting Corona out. George went out once and had diarrhea as well. This morning I only gave them each a TINY piece of meat.


First...I wouldn't feed them ANY meat when they're having diarrhea. Fasting is the first step to getting them back on track. I wouldn't feed either of them until tomorrow morning. For that meal only a very TINY meal of bone heavy chicken, either a wing or a chunk of Cornish game hen (if you're able to find them). You don't want to feed just meat when they're already having diarrhea because it will only exacerbate the problem. What they need is smaller meals of higher bone content chicken. 



> I'm curious.. I've had them on pre made raw before and never had issues like this, the transitions were always simple and smooth. I've got 3lbs of Nature's Variety Lamb in my freezer.. what if I were to try feeding that for a few days, do you think that would make the transition to "real raw" any easier?


I don't recommend feeding the NV raw. I've seen many times that it will actually make the transition even worse. I think any food right now will just upset their systems even further despite them doing well on it in the past, especially one as rich as the NV lamb.

What they need is to take a step back, get their intestines back on track and then feed them smaller meals more slowly. I think the culprit here was simply too much food all at once.


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## CoverTune

I'm really not comfortable fasting Corona, missing a meal makes her feel really ill, and then I start to worry about hypoglycaemia.

Both pups were starving today.. they were restless, whining, and inhaling anything they could get their lips on. No diarrhea today after about 6am. I wish I had checked here first, but I gave them each a small portion of a wing for dinner. Ugh.

I'll try to find some necks or backs tomorrow.. but I'll be honest, I'm pretty squeamish, and breaking up spines into little pieces makes my stomach turn!

This is HARD.. I'm going to try putting a puppy pad down tonight and hopefully, if Corona needs to go, she'll use that instead of waking me up.


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## DaneMama

CoverTune said:


> I'm really not comfortable fasting Corona, missing a meal makes her feel really ill, and then I start to worry about hypoglycaemia.


Typically dogs that are under 5 pounds are those who are truly at risk for hypoglycemia. 



> Both pups were starving today.. they were restless, whining, and inhaling anything they could get their lips on. No diarrhea today after about 6am. I wish I had checked here first, but I gave them each a small portion of a wing for dinner. Ugh.


Most dogs are not used to being fasted act this way. Once they get used to it you wont have them being restless and whining. We fast our girls on a regular basis as its kind of a part of raw feeding to most people. Not everyone fasts their dogs regularly but I'd say a good amount of us do so we can feed larger meals more often. 

I personally think that fasting is a good "tool" to have when it comes to situations like diarrhea and vomiting. Dogs that are used to being fasted wont have near the shock as compared to dogs that aren't used to it. 

Don't worry too much about feeding them, the part you gave them is the ideal part to give at this point. Just keep an eye on their condition. 



> I'll try to find some necks or backs tomorrow.. but I'll be honest, I'm pretty squeamish, and breaking up spines into little pieces makes my stomach turn!
> 
> This is HARD.. I'm going to try putting a puppy pad down tonight and hopefully, if Corona needs to go, she'll use that instead of waking me up.


I'm sorry this is turning out to be so difficult, I know lots of people who aren't great with raw meats who have gotten used to doing this kind of stuff in time. I think if you stick with it that tearing, smashing, cutting up meaty bones will become second nature to you...you wont even bat an eyelash at it. Just be patient and keep truckin' along :wink:


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## CoverTune

Thanks Natalie.

For the record, miss Corona is only 4lbs.. not sure if I stated that already or not.


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## xellil

CoverTune said:


> I'll try to find some necks or backs tomorrow.. but I'll be honest, I'm pretty squeamish, and breaking up spines into little pieces makes my stomach turn!


You are not alone! I dry heaved alot at first, and the first time I messed with thawed spleen I actually puked. I still don't like the spleen but I keep it half thawed so I don't have to get the stuff on my fingers. But the rest is a piece of cake now - you really do get used to it and actually enjoy it after awhile.


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## Herzo

I'm sorry your having so much trouble. And it does get easier, I haven't done spleen I still can't cute up cow tongue but when I started I couldn't cute up heart and I can now. I was a little squeamish about kidneys but I made it.


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## DaneMama

Well, in the case of a 4 pound dog (I'm not sure if you've posted weights of your dogs yet...I can tend to glaze over important details like that LOL) I wouldn't fast more than 12 hours, but 12 hours should be fine as we have dogs this small or smaller fast all the time for things at work (I'm a vet tech). 

Any updates for today?


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## Donna Little

My largest dog is a 12 or 13 lbs and I don't give her a whole drumstick as one meal. It's too much. I would get some necks if you're seeing runny poop. They are a breeze to pull the skin off of. I think your other little one is licking also because they have chicken on their paws. Mine love their raw food and will find any speck of fat or juice and lick until it's alllll gone!


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## CoverTune

Today is a better day! Everyone slept through the night and George's TINY poop was soft, but formed. I gave them each a section of wing again for breakfast.. I'm sure they think I'm trying to starve them to death.

DaneMama, is anyone at your clinic supportive of raw feeding? I work at a clinic as well (reception) and don't even dare mention raw food around there.


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## DaneMama

The first clinic I worked at...NO! It actually was really tense and awkward when the vet/owner found out I fed raw AND got the other tech to switch LOL. 

But the clinic I work at now, yes. The main vet that works there is 100% in support of raw/alternative feeding. She does homecooked herself as she's squeamish to raw meat...she's vegan. But I'm working on her LOL! The other two vets that work there, one is not and the other is indifferent. 

Maybe ask the vets at your work what their opinions are on home prepared diets? Thats how I tiptoed into telling them I feed raw at my current workplace.


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## CoverTune

Today went well. I don't want to rush things, and take a step backward, but George is pretty skinny.. would adding in a third meal be ok? Just another section of wing.. instead of making his current meals any bigger..


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## DaneMama

Yes, a third small meal would be better than two larger meals...


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## sozzle

I know a good way to get the skin off chicken, grab the skin using kitchen paper (the paper napkin stuff on a roll) so you can get a grip and pull, that works quite well if you are getting frustrated.
Good luck with the transition. My dog has been raw fed since April and is doing really well after being on kibble and god knows what else as he was a racing dog. His coat is lovely and shiny now, back teeth good, front teeth not so good, unfortunately greyhounds are notorious for not having good teeth from what I can deduce reading greyhound sites.


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## CoverTune

Another good night! I gave George a third meal late last night and that seemed to be just fine.. he did vomit late this morning, but it looks like it was all bile and veggies - I shared a SMALL amount of my raw veggies with him last night (carrot, cauliflower & broccoli), which was clearly not a great idea.

I've noticed that both dogs have kind of a weird smell to them now... but on the plus side, Corona's breath has improved a LOT already, and even George's is a bit better.

This weekend I'm going to buy some cheap containers, and divide up the rest of the wings, so I can have a day's worth of food ready to go in each container. Not sure what I'm going to do with the remaining 20 or so drumsticks I have in the freezer now.. lol.


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## magicre

during the time your dog is getting used to raw, i would suggest not giving cauliflower or broccoli...these are cruciferous vegetables and can effect thyroid function.
plus, since you're not breaking the cellular wall, they are going to go through undigested....

right now, he needs to concentrate on getting used to eating raw.......i'd stop veggies until he is stable.

and, if you are going to feed veggies, they will only need a tiny bit, like a teaspoon...and it should all be either blended or chopped really fine.


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## Mondo

"since you're not breaking the cellular wall, they are going to go through undigested"

I wonder if this is entirely true? My boys have eaten the occasional floret of both, and they appear to get digested. Not trying to be contrary. I was going to be a bit more BARF oriented, but after coming here and discovering PMR, and given that one of my dogs apparently is really biased towards PMR, not sure that veggies are part of the future much. I did give them a little Sojos today. Toby ate his, and Tuffy's. Tuffy ate around it, enjoying a teaspoon of tripe soaked in the juices of a little blade roast and some chicken hearts. Then each got a tiny chicken neck to round things out.


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## meggels

Murph has been getting green beans and peas with his premade and I see no sign of them when they come out the other end LOL.


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## Mondo

Corn is another story.


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## xellil

I'm not sure you'd actually see a cauliflower floret pop out the other end! I don't think visibility (or not) is the determining factor in whether they are digesting the food. 

They lack the enzyme in their saliva to start breaking down the outer covering of a vegetable, but I think the pancreas does produce some of that enzyme. 

This is from a site that thinks people should add veggies, but that you should grind them up first:


> All vegetables must be put through a food processor or blender or chopped finely to be broken down to bite size chunks. Dogs and cats do not digest large pieces of vegetables easily.


Dr. Goodpet - Scratch Free


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## DaneMama

The others have covered veggies pretty well. 

As far as the drummies left over, keep em. I'm sure in the future when your dogs are professional raw eaters they'll handle them just fine.


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## magicre

meggels said:


> Murph has been getting green beans and peas with his premade and I see no sign of them when they come out the other end LOL.


now that you are giving your dog raw chicken.....his system needs a chance to adjust....we didn't start feeding veggies until we were well into a year of raw.....

i don't recommend anything other than protein/bones/organs....because it takes a bit to adapt the gut...and if there are loose stools, you won't know why if you feed treats or grains or veggies....during this time.

i think this is the time to keep it simple.


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## magicre

Mondo said:


> "since you're not breaking the cellular wall, they are going to go through undigested"
> 
> I wonder if this is entirely true? My boys have eaten the occasional floret of both, and they appear to get digested. Not trying to be contrary. I was going to be a bit more BARF oriented, but after coming here and discovering PMR, and given that one of my dogs apparently is really biased towards PMR, not sure that veggies are part of the future much. I did give them a little Sojos today. Toby ate his, and Tuffy's. Tuffy ate around it, enjoying a teaspoon of tripe soaked in the juices of a little blade roast and some chicken hearts. Then each got a tiny chicken neck to round things out.


i don't know if it is entirely true either, but i think if barf is going to be discussed, it should go over to the barf forum...otherwise, it confuses things, ya know?


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## Mondo

Sorry, new here. I'm confused as to what forum I'm in .. ah, I see, there's a subforum. Just finding my way around .. although it seems that discussion of veggies should be avoided as well.


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## magicre

Mondo said:


> Sorry, new here. I'm confused as to what forum I'm in .. ah, I see, there's a subforum. Just finding my way around .. although it seems that discussion of veggies should be avoided as well.


not at all...but we are a people of strong beliefs.....which is why i, a raw feeder, do not post about raw in the dry food/canned section and barf feeding which is a whole different kind of feeding too.....it's not just about buying a bag of veggies and throwing it at your dog......

that's why we have a separate forum for it......it is confusing to say the least....when starting to feed raw and finding that balance....so throwing barf feeding into a pmr section...seems more confusing...but that doesn't mean you can't talk about barf feeding...i'd just head on over to the barf section....



and welcome.


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## meggels

magicre said:


> now that you are giving your dog raw chicken.....his system needs a chance to adjust....we didn't start feeding veggies until we were well into a year of raw.....
> 
> i don't recommend anything other than protein/bones/organs....because it takes a bit to adapt the gut...and if there are loose stools, you won't know why if you feed treats or grains or veggies....during this time.
> 
> i think this is the time to keep it simple.


His stools are perfect. But I'll keep an eye out.


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## CoverTune

I wasn't meaning to "feed" veggies, as part of the diet.. I was just snacking on some, and he gave me that cute George face and.. he LOVES veggies... I'll try to behave better from now on.


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## xellil

CoverTune said:


> I wasn't meaning to "feed" veggies, as part of the diet.. I was just snacking on some, and he gave me that cute George face and.. he LOVES veggies... I'll try to behave better from now on.


I gotta admit, i sometimes feed my dogs other stuff also. Not usually veggies but watermelon, bananas. etc. And i know some folks who give carrots as treats - I wonder if you did that if you could just not count them at all as food since they can't digest them very well.


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## CoverTune

So, what do I do next? Tummies all seem to have settled, Corona's licking has almost stopped... however, the last couple of meals, both dogs have decided that swallowing the wings whole is acceptable. I've only got enough wings left for today and tomorrow.

George is still losing weight, I can feel his hips and spine now. Also I'm losing my job in two weeks, so $$ is a huge concern.


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## xellil

Go here and get the info - if they are doing good it's probably time to add another protein:

How to Get Started | Prey Model Raw

If a dog is losing weight, increase food.

I just lost my job recently also. I am moving so haven't done much here, but when I get where I'm going I'm going to be hitting up friends and relatives for meat, and finding all the deer hunters in my area as well as butchers that will sell me cheap scraps.


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## chewice

On that website... (since I am stocking up on meats)... when they say to add another protein (say turkey necks) does that mean chicken for breakfast and turkey for supper... or do you guys have a chicken turkey breakfast and a chicken turkey dinner? Or does it even matter....


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## xellil

chewice said:


> On that website... (since I am stocking up on meats)... when they say to add another protein (say turkey necks) does that mean chicken for breakfast and turkey for supper... or do you guys have a chicken turkey breakfast and a chicken turkey dinner? Or does it even matter....


it's easier for me to do chicken one meal and turkey the next. but really, I think either way would work fine.

The thing that hasn't set well with my dog is mixing beef spleen with tuna fish. Urp. But you aren't to those kinds of proteins yet.


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## chewice

xellil said:


> it's easier for me to do chicken one meal and turkey the next. but really, I think either way would work fine.
> 
> The thing that hasn't set well with my dog is mixing beef spleen with tuna fish. Urp. But you aren't to those kinds of proteins yet.


haha definatly not yet... but im a far far far in advance kinda planner! I can't wait til I can just grab whatever meat and go for it!


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## CoverTune

Damn. I'm nearly out of wings, so I tried giving George a drumstick again last night, stripped of almost all the meat. Twelve hours later I woke up to him barfing on the carpet again, although this time all it was, was a small pile of bits of bone. Kinda confused about that...

I've got just enough wing pieces to get through today, and tomorrow I'll see if I can find necks.. if not, I'll stick with wings for now I guess.


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## Serenity

I'd love to be in my room with one of my fav treats!!! LoL


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## magicre

CoverTune said:


> Damn. I'm nearly out of wings, so I tried giving George a drumstick again last night, stripped of almost all the meat. Twelve hours later I woke up to him barfing on the carpet again, although this time all it was, was a small pile of bits of bone. Kinda confused about that...
> 
> I've got just enough wing pieces to get through today, and tomorrow I'll see if I can find necks.. if not, I'll stick with wings for now I guess.


how much does george weigh?

has he only had wing pieces so far? it's possible that if he's a lightweigh, drumsticks is too much for him...have you tried giving him a little piece of chicken without bone along with some bone?


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## CoverTune

George should weigh around 14lbs.. he's a bit skinny at the moment.

I started him on drumsticks, but that gave him liquid poops, so he's been on wings for about a week now and doing ok, just losing a bit of weight. I haven't tried giving chicken meat with bone separate, why do you recommend that?

I'm not sure what I can give him that's bigger than a wing, but smaller than a drumstick... maybe chicken thigh?


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## Mondo

Thighs are good. You can trim them a bit if you like. I'll mix a bit of the trimmings with another meat. I get the thighs down to 100 grams, feed them, and then maybe a neck and/or some meat. I feed meat and bony meat (wings and necks primarily) about half and half.


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## DaneMama

CoverTune said:


> George should weigh around 14lbs.. he's a bit skinny at the moment.
> 
> I started him on drumsticks, but that gave him liquid poops, so he's been on wings for about a week now and doing ok, just losing a bit of weight. I haven't tried giving chicken meat with bone separate, why do you recommend that?
> 
> I'm not sure what I can give him that's bigger than a wing, but smaller than a drumstick... maybe chicken thigh?


Thighs are about the same size as drummies...possibly a bit bigger. 

I think what Re means is giving a small chunk of boneless chicken with a chicken wing for a meal. This way you can increase the meat content in his meals without making them too big. Does this make sense? 

I would however do this gradually. Start out with a chunk of boneless chicken about the size of an almond. If he handles that well, double it the next day. Gradually increase until he's putting on a bit of weight back but still handling things well. Eventually he should be able to handle a drummie or a thigh without issue...its just a matter of having the patience of getting to that point.


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## magicre

CoverTune said:


> George should weigh around 14lbs.. he's a bit skinny at the moment.
> 
> I started him on drumsticks, but that gave him liquid poops, so he's been on wings for about a week now and doing ok, just losing a bit of weight. I haven't tried giving chicken meat with bone separate, why do you recommend that?
> 
> I'm not sure what I can give him that's bigger than a wing, but smaller than a drumstick... maybe chicken thigh?


i'm just sort of thinking out loud......seems like when you try to increase his food or lessen the bone content, he throws up....we are talking about a full vomit, right? not just yellow bile?

it's not abnormal for a dog to lose a little weight during the transition....

since wings are very bony, i was thinking, since you're trying to increase food, perhaps give the wing and a bit of boneless chicken, maybe an ounce or so...to start...see what that does..


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## magicre

DaneMama said:


> Thighs are about the same size as drummies...possibly a bit bigger.
> 
> I think what Re means is giving a small chunk of boneless chicken with a chicken wing for a meal. This way you can increase the meat content in his meals without making them too big. Does this make sense?
> 
> I would however do this gradually. Start out with a chunk of boneless chicken about the size of an almond. If he handles that well, double it the next day. Gradually increase until he's putting on a bit of weight back but still handling things well. Eventually he should be able to handle a drummie or a thigh without issue...its just a matter of having the patience of getting to that point.


see. nat....i should just signal you so you can interpret what i mean...that's exactly what i meant LOL


----------



## DaneMama

magicre said:


> see. nat....i should just signal you so you can interpret what i mean...that's exactly what i meant LOL


Great minds think alike :thumb:


----------



## CoverTune

Well, he didn't vomit until at least 8 hours after eating, so all that was in his tummy was bile and tiny pieces of bone.


----------



## magicre

when you're first transitioning, that's normal. 

how often do you feed him?


----------



## meggels

Stacey, Murph would get those as well. I would find little piles of bile with tiny pieces of bone in them the first time I tried him on PMR. But it went away pretty quickly.


----------



## CoverTune

I feed twice a day, but I wouldn't give him two drumsticks a day.


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## DaneMama

How long is he going between meals?


----------



## ruthie

i have a ? i just started feeding raw and i don't no if i'm doing right i have 3 chi's do i feed chicken mostly or beef my husband told me 80% should b red meat and i thought it should be mostly chicken and i give organ meat on week ends. i need help please


----------



## xellil

ruthie said:


> i have a ? i just started feeding raw and i don't no if i'm doing right i have 3 chi's do i feed chicken mostly or beef my husband told me 80% should b red meat and i thought it should be mostly chicken and i give organ meat on week ends. i need help please


Have you seen this site? You should not be feeding beef if you just started - that comes later. no organs, either:

How to Get Started | Prey Model Raw


----------



## magicre

CoverTune said:


> I feed twice a day, but I wouldn't give him two drumsticks a day.


are you saying that you feed him wings twice per day? is that what he's getting right now?


----------



## CoverTune

Yes, he gets two sections of wing per day - one around 10am, and one around 5 or 6pm. So he's going about 8-16hrs between meals at the moment.


----------



## magicre

and his stools are solid? 

if so, and it's been more than a week that his stools are solid, it might be time to add in some boneless chicken....small piece, quarter size maybe....to one of the meals.

he might be hungry or he's just adapting.

if he continues to have bile pukes, i'd guess he's hungry....for more than just bone. 

and now i'll wait for nat to come in and tell you what i really meant LOL -- teasing you nat.


----------



## CoverTune

Yay, I found necks/backs today! And I got a scale, AND I found a cornish hen. Here's dinner for the pups tonight:









That's 1oz for Corona and 3oz for George.

Now that I can weigh it out, I'll start adding more meat and a bit less bone. This might actually be kinda fun, lol.

What do I do with the cornish hen now? lol Should that be what they solely eat for a week, or can I just have it as a meal or two over the weekend?


----------



## DaneMama

I would break up the Cornish game hen into its parts. Hind quarters, wings, breast bone and back. Weigh them all out to see the difference in them. Go from there. 

How are they doing in this past week? Have you seen 7 days straight of normal bowel movements?


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## CoverTune

Doing well, poops have all been good, just that weird vomit from George.


----------



## DaneMama

Describe this vomit? When? How long after eating? Etc?


----------



## CoverTune

DaneMama said:


> Describe this vomit? When? How long after eating? Etc?


Just bile and pieces of bone. About.. 12-14hrs after eating.


----------



## DaneMama

Ah, just a classic case of the hunger pukes. Nothing to be alarmed about.


----------



## CoverTune

Should I try harder to make the meals 12hrs apart? My work schedule is pretty crazy this month, but I can definitely try if it's better for the pups.


----------



## swolek

CoverTune said:


> Should I try harder to make the meals 12hrs apart? My work schedule is pretty crazy this month, but I can definitely try if it's better for the pups.


It might go away on it's own, it seems that certain dogs get the hunger pukes when first switched. One way to prevent the puking is to feed "snacks" to tide them over until the next meal.


----------



## CoverTune

I came home to find diarrhea all over my bedroom carpet tonight. It was definitely George, but Corona may have taken part as well. Would switching from wings to backs/necks cause that?

I'm starting to get worried with how thin George is.


----------



## DaneMama

Man...just having a hard time with this. 

Are you measuring their meals out?


----------



## CoverTune

I am now.. George is getting 5oz a day, and Corona is getting 1.5oz per day.. all divided into two meals. Maybe I'm just feeding too much, need to cut back again? But like I said, George's weight is starting to concern me.. not that I think it's the diet, it's just the amount I'm feeding, but I have to start small.

Maybe I just need to go with 3 meals a day for him for now? Like.. 2oz per meal? I don't know..


----------



## DaneMama

I would try that....is there much fat or skin on the RMBs you're giving?


----------



## meggels

I'm sorry you're having such a tough time Stacey


----------



## CoverTune

Ok so... around 6am George woke me up with some retching and chewing, so I came downstairs and grabbed a small piece of meat for him. Seemed to settle things down. This morning he's getting 1.8oz of back and will get the same for dinner.


----------



## magicre

i read where you're giving him 5 ounces, up from 3...maybe he's the type of dog who needs three tiny meals a day.

don't get too upset....the early weeks and months are the trickiest for some and i've not seen a dog not settle out eventually.....

you'll get a headache and lose sleep...he'll be fine 

if you're feeding backs, you may want to remove the kidneys...those red coloured little things....my two were not the best in show for transition. actually they were poster dogs for what not to do......but even they made it


----------



## xellil

I feed Snorkels three times a day. It's more of a hassle and harder to manage the amount of food intake, but she seems to do much better on three meals than two.


----------



## Mondo

My boys have been hinting they'd like to be fed in the morning as well as the evening. We're gone all day though, from 6:30am until 4pm. Not sure how their digestive systems would manage. Thoughts?


----------



## DaneMama

I think they'd handle two meals per day just fine....just start with smaller meals at first and gradually add more food in per meal.


----------



## magicre

i have a small dog and i think he does better on more than one meal a day. we tried going to one.....did not work.

when you are increasing meals or changing foods or feeding times, just do it slowly and gradually...things go ever so much easier....

and he'll gain the weight back.....promise.


----------



## CoverTune

Corona refused breakfast this morning, which is not normal for her at all.

George, on the other hand, apparently enjoyed his chicken back so much that he had to eat it twice. Gross.


----------



## lucky

sorry that you have had a hard time with the transitioning, my jrt had a lot of hunger pukes when first starting out too so not to worry.

You are in the best place for advice here, everyone is the best help


----------



## CoverTune

Corona was excited for dinner, so that's good. I need to get more meat/less bone in her diet though, her poop today was literally the size of 3 peas, and yellow.

Both dogs stink (body & breath) like raw chicken. hwell:


----------



## DaneMama

CoverTune said:


> Corona was excited for dinner, so that's good. I need to get more meat/less bone in her diet though, her poop today was literally the size of 3 peas, and yellow.
> 
> Both dogs stink (body & breath) like raw chicken. hwell:


Glad to hear that she is having "rabbit" poos. Thats what we want! Yellow is normal for an all chicken diet. Weird I know...but perfectly normal. 

Thats a downside of feeding all chicken..they start to stink like it. Eventually once you get passed this step in transition and they get more variety you wont have that smell to them to deal with. Just be patient and it'll all work out fine!


----------



## CoverTune

Well that's good to know! I hacked up the cornish hen tonight (which was amusing when I was breaking it's legs, but nearly vomit-inducing when a kidney burst in my hand), and will start feeding it this week. If that goes ok, I think I'll look at adding in some turkey next week.

So far, this seems to be averaging around $2/day to feed both dogs.. which hurts when it only cost $0.71/day to feed them both kibble. Hope I can find a way to keep up with this.


----------



## xellil

CoverTune said:


> Corona refused breakfast this morning, which is not normal for her at all.
> 
> George, on the other hand, apparently enjoyed his chicken back so much that he had to eat it twice. Gross.


Yep, this afternoon Rebel threw up some of his turkey neck and Snorkels helped him get it back down again. My brother who is here from California and isn't really familiar with the fact that dogs (mine at least) puke more on a raw diet was thoroughly grossed out.

Aren't Cornish hens pretty expensive? I haven't bought any. I've never SEEN any in the grocery store. i wonder if those are what is making your costs $2 per day.


----------



## DaneMama

Cornish game hens are pretty expensive for what they are. When we fed two mini dachshund foster dogs raw it was much more time consuming and expensive than feeding 4 Danes. Smaller portions mean more work AND making buying things in bulk not convenient. 

We have four GIANT freezers for our dog's food. We buy in bulk for better prices. I bet all the meat we have in our freezers would last your dogs YEARS...but it only lasts us months. 

One thing to take into consideration is that the food might be more expensive...but it will prevent a lot of expensive vet bills down the road. Small dogs are notorious for bad dental hygiene which makes expensive dentals a normality for small dog owners. Since dentals tend to run at $200-400 per dog per year...take that money into consideration. As dogs fed a raw diet rarely if ever need dental procedures.


----------



## CoverTune

I've only purchased the one cornish hen, and it was only $8. Just wanted to give it a try, since it was recommended on here a few times, but it definitely won't be a staple.

I spent well over an hour tonight prepping just enough meals for the week. It's really tough breaking things down into such tiny portions, less than 1oz per meal for Corona. *phew*! But perhaps when I move in a few months, I can look at getting a small freezer and maybe finding SOME things in bulk, to bring the cost down a bit.

Unfortunately, Corona will likely need regular dentals regardless of her diet.. she just had 5 teeth pulled a couple months ago due to bone degeneration.. I don't think there's a diet in the world that can help with that.  BUT, I do get your point, honest.

Another question.. George has white legs, and has bad saliva staining on his front feet. He's had it for months now, but it had improved a lot just before we made the diet change, now they're bad again. Is the healthier diet going to eventually remedy this, or are we "doomed" now because he's going to lick meat juices off his feet?


----------



## DaneMama

I think it is due to just chicken in their diet at this point. I think in time when you get more variety in the staining will ease up or go away all together. My girls sometimes have staining as well and its usually when they get chicken. 

And I think that the raw diet will for sure help with the teeth issues. Bone degeneration is due to several things, one of which is from the constant infection of the gums with bacteria that is housed in tartar buildup. Take away the tartar buildup and the bacteria leave creating a healthier environment in the mouth as a whole, as well as the surrounding tissues and whole body organ systems. Not to mention the higher quality sources of minerals will most likely help the bone regenerate stronger. Have faith :thumb:


----------



## kathylcsw

CoverTune said:


> I spent well over an hour tonight prepping just enough meals for the week. It's really tough breaking things down into such tiny portions, less than 1oz per meal for Corona. *phew*! But perhaps when I move in a few months, I can look at getting a small freezer and maybe finding SOME things in bulk, to bring the cost down a bit.


I feel your pain at having to cut up small portions for little dogs. My JRT gets 4 oz per day divided into 2 meals and my Toy Fox Terrier puppy gets 2.6 oz divided into 3 meals per day. It is especially hard when feeding bone in meals and trying to get them the right size. I have been giving the puppy wings or drummies and taking them away once he has eaten his amount for that meal. I have to do that with the JRT too when I give her beef ribs, pork necks, or any larger bony piece. It is a lot of work but so far I am hanging in there! I wish you luck with it all too.


----------



## Liz

Cornish game hen is only about $2.50 here so we use it on tiny/small dogs to start them chewing up bones until they progress to chicken. I am way too lazy to cut up tiny portions - my shelties get about 8 ounces per day. Once you can buy bulk, or even just bigger portions at once you will see a savings. We feed for under $1 per pound - and get some great variety. The beginning is the hardest. Hang in there. Oh, you also need to calculate in all the dentals you probably won't need, vet visitis for allergies, skin issues, etc. My dogs rarely went to the vet but now haven't "needed" a visit all year. My old boy will get a blood panel next month but that it is. Also no doggy smell means less bathing (so fewer shampoos, conditioners, etc).


----------



## magicre

your dogs smell like my dogs did.....i almost gave up feeding raw because i had two chickens following me around. and they still had weird breath...

it took time...

cornish hens are way too expensive, though perfectly sized for your little one..

at one of our stores, we have wings and little drummettes..if you don't have a gulper, you can feed these...if you can find them. my sister in law is having the same issue with her five pound min pin/ chi whatever dog.....the dog eats an ounce per meal....


----------



## CoverTune

Poor George doesn't seem well today. He ate his breakfast fine, about an hour ago, but now seems quite lethargic. The meat was a touch green.. did I poison him??


----------



## magicre

CoverTune said:


> Poor George doesn't seem well today. He ate his breakfast fine, about an hour ago, but now seems quite lethargic. The meat was a touch green.. did I poison him??


is it possible he's being overfed or fed too much at one sitting?

no, i don't think you poisoned him. how green was it?


----------



## CoverTune

All his meals are measured out at 2oz now, so we definitely shouldn't be having the overfeeding issue anymore.

It was just barely green, defrosted over night, less than 12 hours.

He's a little brighter at the moment, enticed him with a treat.. but still has this really tired look in his eyes. Maybe being underweight is catching up with him? Although it's not like he's emaciated.


----------



## magicre

so is he getting three meals of two ounces each?

and what kind of green meat did you feed? are you still feeding chicken?


----------



## magicre

the other thing is this.

we had your dogs. it was their stomachs and always user error that kept them from progressing the way other dogs did. 

i was so jealous, but i couldn't stop because even with the cannon butt and the hunger pukes and ribs sticking out and tiny pug waists.....they were getting white teeth, beautifully brilliant black coats...

i could almost feel the toxins coming out of their pores.....and yeah, they had bad breath, goobers, stinky coats, even greasy sometimes.....there were days they would just want to sleep...they didn't play after eating like they usually do.

nothing was normal.

in truth, it was normal because they were going through a transition. and, in looking back, when i started juicing, after a gadzillion surgeries in too short a period of time and i wanted to detox my cells, i went through something very similar...so why wouldn't they.

granted, i'm not a dog and they aren't human, although sometimes i forget that ....

don't give up....

and the one thing you can't do during this and for the next several months as you intro new proteins, is to give them anything but bone, protein and eventually organ....it may take a year, but resist the carrot, the green bean, the treat......and only because they are having a rough transition.....

it will work out. mine did and i despaired. go back to the archives if you want and you'll hear me crying and whining about how my dogs did the opposite of what they were ideally supposed to do.

ach, if i read one more post about someone's dog starting out on beef and doin' fine...i was going to punch someone....

in the end, my dogs can and do eat anything....sometimes they get a loose stool, but that's because i forgot to feed bone soon enough....my bad. it's usually my bad if they go off.....and i'm pretty careful.

i weigh everything because eyeballing put five pounds on both my dogs....and they got chunky....no good at eyeballing


----------



## CoverTune

magicre said:


> so is he getting three meals of two ounces each?
> 
> and what kind of green meat did you feed? are you still feeding chicken?


He's been getting two meals for the last few days. And yeah, chicken and cornish hen at this point, with hopes of adding in turkey starting this weekend.

And thank you for that post.. I actually may go back and read some of your posts, just so I know I'm not alone! Everyone here has been SO great, answering all my questions and helping me out.. well, helping US out really, which I'm really really thankful for. Corona doesn't seem to be having any problems, really, which is also encouraging.

Do you think it takes longer for an older dog to make the transition? George is estimated to be 9 years old, so maybe that's making things a bit tougher on him as well.


----------



## magicre

you can pm me any time.....i made the experts age.

i made the same mistake that you're making now....which is not seeing the whole picture...and being obsessive.....

'course, there's no way to see the whole picture unless you take that leap of faith which i didn't do.....and now wish i had. 

if ever malia dies and she's not allowed to.......spitting on finger....and i get a puppy, i promise to drive EVERYONE around here nuts.....even though i know how to feed a dog raw.

my pug had the same cannon butt at age 2 that my corgi mix had at age 10 when we started.....

i overfed based on advice from a so called expert on another board.....stopped feeding raw when my dogs shat the entire contents of their bodies out....day after day after day.....good times....

when i finally got here, i overfed backs.....then i had to take the skin off. then i had to feed less. then i had to stop treats. then i had to take the kidneys off the backs.

i would buy thirty to forty pound cases because i swear my dogs were on chicken for two months....probably not, but it felt that way. and every time i tried to add boneless, they would be off and running again, literally.

and i drank a lot.

and i'm sure my mentors drank a lot too.

and then one day, they started to transition, in spite of me. i was feeding them less than what they were supposed to get. feeding backs.
watching them lose weight.
bubba's waist was so tiny that we thought he was top heavy and would fall over.

and then gradually, it happened. i stopped being their worst enemy and i fed them only backs, which then cleared up the diarrhea. 

i added teensy tiny pieces of chicken with their backs......and increased so slowly.....and still their stools remained fine.

and then finally every month, i would add another protein in dime sized pieces.....

it took, if i remember correctly, six months to transition my dogs.

in looking back, i wish i had been a little more trusting, which was hard because i trusted the first person and followed her instructions to the tee and my dogs got cannon butt.

i wish i had found this place sooner. but that's fantastical thinking. i didn't even come to the boards about food. i joined forums because i had the dog from hell....and didn't know how to deal with him. 'course, now he's a bubba and wonderful...but not then. and then as he became more of a real dog, the subject of food came up.....and that's when raw became my magnificent obsession.

i wish i had started them earlier. i think everyone does.

and, in the end.....it works out. they will adjust....even the worst of the worst, eventually gets it....but so much depends on you.


----------



## Liz

I think age has a lot to do with it. My oldest two have taken longer to move from protein to protein. While all the younger ones just bound from one to another and the weaned to raw pups eat almost anything by 8 weeks old! My old boy still adores his chicken best and I think it just may be easier on his tummy. He gets 1 3/4 pounds so part of his food is a piece of chicken every day - then he gets organ and heart, pork etc. But he must have at least 1 piece of chicken. Take your time with your older pup and let him set the pace, he really know what feels right.


----------



## magicre

Liz said:


> I think age has a lot to do with it. My oldest two have taken longer to move from protein to protein. While all the younger ones just bound from one to another and the weaned to raw pups eat almost anything by 8 weeks old! My old boy still adores his chicken best and I think it just may be easier on his tummy. He gets 1 3/4 pounds so part of his food is a piece of chicken every day - then he gets organ and heart, pork etc. But he must have at least 1 piece of chicken. Take your time with your older pup and let him set the pace, he really know what feels right.


i think you're probably right....i would not have known that because of too much user error so both dogs were affected equally.....

now that i think about it though.....malia will loosen up sooner than bubba does....when it comes to bone or richer foods.


----------



## CoverTune

Dangit. Came home from work tonight to diarrhea in my bedroom again. Then George went outside and snacked on poop. What the.. ??

*sigh*


----------



## magicre

i honest to G'd think he's getting too much food or it's possible he's getting inappropriate food. my SIL's dog was eating cat food which finally cleared up her bouts of diarrhea, so if george is getting into something, or someone is feeding other than breakfast and dinner, that could explain it.

if you're feeding five ounces a day, i'd go back to four...hunger pukes are normal for this time of transition and most of the dogs who go through this lose weight...time will take care of it..

also, if you're really stressing out and who can blame you....it will be felt by george....this is one boy where there can be no extras, no deviations........i would back up to 2 ounces in the a.m. and 2 ounces in the p.m. and feed wings or backs, minus excess skin and organs, if feeding backs...and i would feed bony meals until he stabilises his poo for at least two weeks.

and just to make sure you've covered all of your bases, i'd take a fecal in for testing.


----------



## CoverTune

Well crap.. Probably literally. I'm visiting my parents for a few days and the moment we got here, George ran inside and ate the kibble that was out for my mum's dog, it was only half a dozen pieces, but still not good!

First thing tomorrow I'm going to buy some split chicken wings, and start all over again with George.


----------



## magicre

well, at least you have your sense of humour 

i think it's a good idea to start over with him.....he seems to be having a hard time....like mine did.

and honestly, the only way i got them through this was to feed them only chicken, 1-1 1/2 per cent of their ideal weight.....and keep doing it for, i think, a month....
no treats
no supplements
nothing but chicken backs...that's all i fed. and no skin, no organs.

and then finally, finally things got better....now when i take them to a friend's house, i make sure their dog dish is up and this is two years later...so my dogs won't eat kibble or anything not species appropriate.


----------



## CoverTune

I don't have a scale here, so I'm going to err on the side of feeding too little rather than too much.

I also picked up a small package of turkey stir-fry meat to start giving Corona. I'm thinking of just adding a tiny bit of meat to her chicken wing at dinner, and work her up to a turkey meat only meal over the next few days.


----------



## Scarlett_O'

magicre said:


> well, at least you have your sense of humour
> 
> i think it's a good idea to start over with him.....he seems to be having a hard time....like mine did.
> 
> and honestly, the only way i got them through this was to feed them only chicken, 1-1 1/2 per cent of their ideal weight.....and keep doing it for, i think, a month....
> no treats
> no supplements
> nothing but chicken backs...that's all i fed. and no skin, no organs.
> 
> and then finally, finally things got better....now when i take them to a friend's house, i make sure their dog dish is up and this is two years later...so my dogs won't eat kibble or anything not species appropriate.


As always a GREAT post by Re!!

TOTALLY agree with EVERYTHING that she said....and IMO, especially when feeding the little ones you REALLY need a scale! Bones are dense and can look like only 2oz but really weigh 4! My scale has been a life safer more times then not!!!:wink:


----------



## CoverTune

I'm noticing now that George's coat is really shiny.. but he's also really greasy. Just another step in the process!


----------



## CoverTune

It's been about 7 hours since dinner time and Georgie just had what I suspect is hunger pukes, though nothing came up at all, not even bile. Poor guy.


----------



## magicre

your assignment for today, should you take it...is to GET A SCALE 

that greasiness will go away....although that, the breath, the chicken smell.....i was glad when it went away and two dogs emerged.


----------



## CoverTune

Oh I have a scale, but it's at home and I'm away visiting my parents for a few days.


----------



## CoverTune

I gave Corona a bone-free meal tonight, just some chicken & turkey meat. She was fed less than 2 hours ago, and is crying for more food. Should I give her a little bone? More meat? Just leave her hungry?


----------



## minnieme

Just wanted to say, DON'T LOSE HOPE. There are people out there who will tell you until they're blue in the face that raw is the best thing in the world and every dog can adapt to it (most of us here, hehe :biggrin: ). Well...it's true BUT... now that I have my second dane, she has shown me that some dogs do have a VERY hard time transitioning no matter how great you are doing! In any case, DON'T LOSE HOPE! My first dane girl who is 2 was a real son of a b*tch to transition and we aren't even on raw at the moment...I threw in the towel. My newest girl took to raw like a fish to water though -- the difference is remarkable. Please keep posting...even if you think "eh, should I?" or that you might be annoying us, just keep posting! I promise you're not. :smile: A lot of us have done it and this is the one place where you won't be judged, chastised or heckled for your desire to feed your dog the best, most natural diet possible. Keep up with the bone heavy meals -- and don't even think about jumping the gun because you see a solid poo for a day or two! :wink: It's easy to get swept up in the excitement of raw... but with some of our kids, we have to go super-de-duper slow. You will get there....I promise!


----------



## CoverTune

Thanks Jill.. I can't wait until I can look back on this thread while the dogs are chowing down on some venison or something, lol.


----------



## DaneMama

To answer your previous question, I would keep her hungry just on the side of caution seeing as this was her first boneless meal....right?


----------



## CoverTune

It was her second boneless meal.. I ended up breaking down and giving her a small wing bone, she was relentless! lol

We'll be back home by tomorrow night, so I'll be able to weigh things again and get us back on track, but everyone's been doing pretty well this week thankfully. Even with adding in some turkey, things have been fine. Corona can likely move on to another new protein this weekend.. I think pork is next.

Both dogs, however, have toxic breath, omg. It's a different smell than when they were on kibble, but it's just as bad.


----------



## kathylcsw

CoverTune said:


> It was her second boneless meal.. I ended up breaking down and giving her a small wing bone, she was relentless! lol
> 
> We'll be back home by tomorrow night, so I'll be able to weigh things again and get us back on track, but everyone's been doing pretty well this week thankfully. Even with adding in some turkey, things have been fine. Corona can likely move on to another new protein this weekend.. I think pork is next.
> 
> Both dogs, however, have toxic breath, omg. It's a different smell than when they were on kibble, but it's just as bad.


Lola had that nasty breath going on too! It lasted about 2 weeks after I switched to all raw and now it is mostly gone. I get a whiff of it now and again but not like it was at first. I am guessing this is just part of the transition?


----------



## CoverTune

I'm about ready to throw in the towel. George had diarrhea at 5am again. He's only eating chicken wings and a tiny bit of turkey.


----------



## kathylcsw

I'm sorry you are having so much trouble. Poor George! I have been fortunate with both of mine having no real issues. Maybe taking out the turkey and just feeding bone heavy chicken? I am too new with this to really give any advice.


----------



## minnieme

Bone heavy chicken all the way. I really do feel your pain..... I went back to kibble because I just couldn't deal with the diarrhea anymore -- but more so, the fact that she looked like a walking skeleton. Hope things work out for your kids soon. It makes me sad for Minnie that she's on kibble and Maya isn't... Maya has been on it for 2 weeks and already looks so much better. And she had a rough few days with diarrhea too... she stole some skin off the counter while I wasn't looking and it was so hard not to beat myself up for it. She has also lost some weight as I started her out on the low end and have very SLOWLY increased her amount - and for me, that's the hardest thing -- seein' em so skinny. Have your kids lost weight?

edit: went back and reread and see that they have. are they looking okay or are you concerned about it still?


----------



## Scarlett_O'

CoverTune said:


> I'm about ready to throw in the towel. George had diarrhea at 5am again. He's only eating chicken wings and a tiny bit of turkey.


IMO, cut back to JUST chicken.

It took my Dixi a whole month to be able to have anything other then chicken, other wise it was squirts ALL OVER!!:wacko:


----------



## CoverTune

Well chicken pretty much IS all he has had since starting a month ago, and his poops were fine on it for 2 weeks before I tried something new. How long am I supposed to keep him on just chicken? I know variety is super important, so I'm worried about him missing out on a lot of nutrients. 

And yes, he is continuing to lose weight. He was 15lbs, and as of today he is only 12.75lbs.


----------



## Scarlett_O'

CoverTune said:


> Well chicken pretty much IS all he has had since starting a month ago, and his poops were fine on it for 2 weeks before I tried something new. How long am I supposed to keep him on just chicken? I know variety is super important, so I'm worried about him missing out on a lot of nutrients.
> 
> And yes, he is continuing to lose weight. He was 15lbs, and as of today he is only 12.75lbs.


Well it is variety over time.:smile:

So if he needs to be on bone in chicken with an almond sized piece of turkey(or pork if you want to skip turkey and make sure that that isnt what is up stetting him) for a few weeks, and then work up to 2 almond size pieces, and so forth that is ok!:thumb:

Also make sure that your meat isnt enhanced at all. Chicken, turkey and pork are the 3 that are effected by enhancement the most!:wink:


----------



## Mondo

Is this diahrrea or some puddin' poops? My boys still experience puddin' poops. They had chicken wings for lunch today, and on our afternoon walk both had a couple of softies. Back to chicken necks for supper. They got a bit of canned salmon today too, that't their omega 3 supplement. 

I recall there always has been a variation in the hardness of poops, regardless of whether they were getting kibble or not. 

I've probably rushed things too much with introducing variety. But all in all I've been quite fortunate. I hope in time to see a bit more consistency.


----------



## CoverTune

Mondo said:


> Is this diahrrea or some puddin' poops? My boys still experience puddin' poops. They had chicken wings for lunch today, and on our afternoon walk both had a couple of softies. Back to chicken necks for supper. They got a bit of canned salmon today too, that't their omega 3 supplement.
> 
> I recall there always has been a variation in the hardness of poops, regardless of whether they were getting kibble or not.
> 
> I've probably rushed things too much with introducing variety. But all in all I've been quite fortunate. I hope in time to see a bit more consistency.


It was pure liquid, with a couple of soft blobs.


----------



## DaneMama

I agree with Abi. Cut back to just bone in chicken. Some dogs just need more patience and a slower transition. I know that some dogs here have taken a whole year for the whole process but now they can eat anything and everything under the sun without issue. Its just a matter of being obsessively slow at the going. It might take him an ENTIRE month straight of just bone in chicken AND normal stools before he's able to move on. 

As far as him missing nutrients in regards to overall health...in the long run it wont make a difference. Nutritional deficiencies typically take months and months to occur with dogs (in cats it happens MUCH faster). They're built to survive on whatever they can scrounge up...so a diet of nothing but bone in, fresh chicken is in reality pretty darn good. Will it sustain a dog for a lifetime? Probably not, as you'd need to add in organ meat in at the very least. Variety IS key, but that is in the long run. Focus now on the present and get past this hurdle. Or...don't and go back to kibble.


----------



## CoverTune

Can I at least feed him a bit more? He's getting 4oz per day (in 2 meals) right now, can I try to bump that up to 4.5oz and see if the weight loss stops?

Corona, on the other hand, is doing great. She's mostly doing one bone meal and one meat meal per day, and is handling chicken, turkey & pork without a problem.


----------



## magicre

i wouldn't.

at the very least, it might help him to feed less, rather than more. 

personally, i'd cut back to 3 meals a day at 2 oz each. that would give him 6 oz a day.

my pug weighs 22 lbs...and he only gets 6 oz total per day. 

that your dog is losing weight....i know it worries you. but he won't starve, i promise.

high bone and only chicken.

no treats of any kind...

look, i know this is breaking your heart and george is a heart dog and older....but honest, if you do it right the first time around, you won't have to give up and then start again or never start. not that that is the worst tragedy, but raw really does give dogs a new lease on life...and sometimes some dogs take to it more easily than others, as you witness between george and corona.

i have a dog who is twelve now. she was started two years ago and we had a very rough start.....it took close to a year before we finally got things right....and now? she's better. so much better.

raw is no guarantee george will live longer, any more than my malia...but she has not dental problems....her blood is good...and she can still run and walks an hour a day.....it was worth it.....

be strong.


----------



## Liz

George will take a while. Older dogs seem to have a harder time of it. My boy was started at 10 and while he did great we took it super slow. He lost weight, he detoxed and was a fright. Now he is stunning again just like in his prime not only that but bouncing and healthy at almost 13! He had chicken backs only for 3 and 1/2 weeks then I started adding a leg for two more weeks then he moved to quarters. He was on chicken only about two months. After that we could add a protein per month and he did well. We have to remember they have been eating junk food their whole lives and it is going to take a while to get them transitioned and healthy. Have patience and you will be glad of it in the long run.


----------



## CoverTune

Hunger pukes today around 8-10 hrs after eating. Poor dude.


----------



## CoverTune

And add to that a small amount of really foul diarrhea, for the second day in a row.


----------



## minnieme

Sounds like his gut is all out of whack.  Poor kid....poor YOU.... I know a lot of people here really hate metronidazole for some REALLY valid reasons... but I have used it in the past for diarrhea and it has seemingly "reset" my animals' guts. I have only ever given it for 1-3 days... and I'm not suggesting that you give it to George, I'm just saying that it sounds like his little tummy is all out of sorts and sometimes antibiotics can help (SOMETIMES....seldom...but SOMETIMES). I apologize in advance for this question because perhaps it's been answered elsewhere, but have you brought in a fecal sample?

edit: I'm not suggesting you give an antibiotic before running a fecal, but I bet there's something going on there... even if it's just elevated clostridia..


----------



## magicre

and he's been tested for giardia or other buggies.....

slippery elm bark works for my dogs.....and bony meals, chicken....or broth.....home made so i know what's in it. no salt.


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## minnieme

George has for sure been tested? Sorry, I couldn't see this anywhere in the thread unless it was talked about elsewhere -- just Re suggesting that George should be tested?

Was it just a basic float or a comprehensive fecal?


----------



## CoverTune

No, actually he hasn't, but he was dewormed not all that long ago. But.. I will look into having a fecal done as soon as we have that capability up and running at the clinic, hopefully in the next day or two.

And for dinner tonight he had two chicken wing bones, and some spine.


----------



## chewice

Dont know if im being helpful or not...but cant you give a childs dosage of pepto bismol to a dog with a tummy ache just to settle it down and give his bum a break?


----------



## magicre

with his symptoms, maybe take a fecal sample in to be tested.

if you are strictly following bony chicken and this kid still has the runs or is puking hunger pukes.....it's time to take him in....

all things being equal, something makes this worth checking out.

giardia is so easily cured with pannacur....

and you can give too much slippery elm,.......so i would want to see him be able to eat more, but my gut says either his motility is now hyper motile or there is something not right that has nothing to do with the raw.

it happens.....i don't think it's the diet. i think poor george is malia's twin.


----------



## CoverTune

Yeah, he had more chicken spine for breakfast today, then diarrhea around 3 hours later. 

I've asked the doctor to take a look at him today, and we'll be able to send out a fecal sample today or tomorrow. 

How would he pick up Giardia without being around other animals, or water sources? Could it be salmonella?


----------



## magicre

unless your chicken is totally contaminated with millions up on millions of salmonella, the answer would be most likely not and i'll give that a 99% assurance 

dogs have the most incredible digestive systems. they can eat meat that's really gone bad and not have a problem 99% of the time.

what they can't fight off all the time are bugs like giardia...and all it takes is them walking in the grass where another dog took a dump and possibly stepping into the area where it was cleaned up. dogs smell everything.

or wet grass or any number of scenarios.

so when george eats, he is stimulating the whole digestion from mouth to intestines...this, in turns, stimulates intestine motility and peristalsis...movement, so to speak...if he's got giardia or another parasite or bug, he will have unexplained diarrhea, even if you are doing every thing right and he's not getting into something you have not found yet.

i just think after all this time, everything being equal and righteous, it's time for a fecal.

hope that helps.


----------



## Liz

Shoot I thought I saw he had a fecal. I would definately check for worms, coccidia and giardia. Many dogs can carry giardia but show bo symptoms until theyare physically or mentally stressed. I almost hope this is the answer as at least it can be taken care of relatively easily.


----------



## magicre

Liz said:


> Shoot I thought I saw he had a fecal. I would definately check for worms, coccidia and giardia. Many dogs can carry giardia but show bo symptoms until theyare physically or mentally stressed. I almost hope this is the answer as at least it can be taken care of relatively easily.


i thought i had seen it too...liz.


----------



## CoverTune

Well, I'm not sure what the issues here are with metronidazole, but that's what we've put George on. Doctor figured its stress colitis, which totally makes sense, as I started bring George to work with me last Friday. So hopefully this will help settle his tummy and get things back on track!


----------



## kathylcsw

Poor George! I hope that this gets him feeling better. I know how hard this has been on the two of you and hopefully you can get him back on track. Feel better fast, George!


----------



## Scarlett_O'

CoverTune said:


> Well, I'm not sure what the issues here are with metronidazole, but that's what we've put George on. Doctor figured its stress colitis, which totally makes sense, as I started bring George to work with me last Friday. So hopefully this will help settle his tummy and get things back on track!


Awwww.....poor little guy!!:hug: 
I remember you guys from the _other_ forum and always thought he was SOOOO cute!!

Glad that you know the reason though!! That would TOTALLY explain the issues!! Here is to feeling better and getting on track!!! :cheer2:


----------



## minnieme

add new foods to stress colitis and it sounds like the perfect recipe for what you've been experiencing. I think the metro will get him back on track right away. BUT with that said, still go super slow with him... I'm thinking you'll likely need a month of bone-in chicken and that's jUST FINE. don't rush him... or you'll be in this mess all over again. is Corona still doing so well?


----------



## CoverTune

Yep, I'm not even thinking of anything new for him at this point, just bony chicken for a good while. He's already improved today, not needing to rush outside. 

Corona is still truckin along, little iron belly! She's handling chicken with the skin left on now. I'll probably wait another week before trying anything else new. 

I have noticed that both pups have really dry skin, and dandruff. Anything I can do for that, or just wait it out? Oh, and George is eating poop again.. Anything I can do for that?


----------



## magicre

CoverTune said:


> Well, I'm not sure what the issues here are with metronidazole, but that's what we've put George on. Doctor figured its stress colitis, which totally makes sense, as I started bring George to work with me last Friday. So hopefully this will help settle his tummy and get things back on track!


starting him on raw and then taking him to work with you....ah, if it's not a bug, i can see how it could be stresfull...let's see if that's the deal. in the meantime, the metro should calm things down to help with transition.

right now, i would do nothing other than transition him in the least stressful way you can.....


----------



## CoverTune

WOW.. I got an updated weight on Corona. The last time I weighed her was before we started on raw and she was 1.97kg (4.34lbs), which was on the high side for her... well, now my girl is down to 1.68kg (3.7lbs)!!! She looks great! On kibble it was a constant battle to keep her weight down, and now she's in great shape without any effort. SO happy!


----------



## Scarlett_O'

CoverTune said:


> WOW.. I got an updated weight on Corona. The last time I weighed her was before we started on raw and she was 1.97kg (4.34lbs), which was on the high side for her... well, now my girl is down to 1.68kg (3.7lbs)!!! She looks great! On kibble it was a constant battle to keep her weight down, and now she's in great shape without any effort. SO happy!


YAY, that is AWESOME!!:thumb:

All that nasty carb weight is GONE!!!:becky:


----------



## CoverTune

I gave Corona 0.1oz of chicken liver tonight for the first time.. she was not a fan, lol. She did eventually eat it though.


----------



## Scarlett_O'

CoverTune said:


> I gave Corona 0.1oz of chicken liver tonight for the first time.. she was not a fan, lol. She did eventually eat it though.


LOL, I always find it so funny when people have issues with their dogs and cats not eating organs......all of mine would LOVE to gorge themselves on organs and organs alone!:tongue:

But just as an fyi....you can try freezing it and see how she takes to that!!:wink:


----------



## Amy18

CoverTune said:


> I gave Corona 0.1oz of chicken liver tonight for the first time.. she was not a fan, lol. She did eventually eat it though.


Lex is not a fan of organs either. I've been lightly searing hers in butter for a while but have slowly transitioned to feeding it raw. Sometimes the only way to get her to eat it is for me to get down on all fours beside her and act like i want some lol - the things we do for our dogs.


----------



## Scarlett_O'

Amy18 said:


> Lex is not a fan of organs either. I've been lightly searing hers in butter for a while but have slowly transitioned to feeding it raw. Sometimes the only way to get her to eat it is for me to get down on all fours beside her and act like i want some lol - the things we do for our dogs.


I wouldnt suggest starting out searing it, try freezing first, since that doesnt change the properties!:wink:
(and definitely dont suggest using anything to sear it....but that is just me.)


----------



## Amy18

Scarlett_O' said:


> I wouldnt suggest starting out searing it, try freezing first, since that doesnt change the properties!:wink:
> (and definitely dont suggest using anything to sear it....but that is just me.)


I guess i should have clarified feeding organs to Lex was a special case. She wouldn't touch it at all frozen or raw(believe me i tried), tough love didn't work and i had to find a way to get her at least accustomed to the taste of it. The only way she would eat it was for me to very lightly sear the outside in something tasty like butter.. just a tiny amount, leaving most of it raw. 

Once she got used to that i began searing it less and less, to now feeding it completely raw. This is just what worked for my dog. I'm not suggesting you don't try frozen first. I'm just stating what worked for me.


----------



## Scarlett_O'

Amy18 said:


> I guess i should have clarified feeding organs to Lex was a special case. She wouldn't touch it at all frozen or raw(believe me i tried), tough love didn't work and i had to find a way to get her at least accustomed to the taste of it. The only way she would eat it was for me to very lightly sear the outside in something tasty like butter.. just a tiny amount, leaving most of it raw.
> 
> Once she got used to that i began searing it less and less, to now feeding it completely raw. This is just what worked for my dog. I'm not suggesting you don't try frozen first. I'm just stating what worked for me.


I figured that was your "last resort" kind of thing....I was just trying to clarify for the OP and anyone else new to raw NOT to start out heating in butter!LOL :smile:


----------



## magicre

how did corona do on the liver? any problems?


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## CoverTune

No problems at all!


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## minnieme

How is George doing??


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## CoverTune

George is doing better.. Stools are good and I even increased his food to 4.4oz per day. We still have a long ways to go.. He's skinny, his coat is dull and gross, eyes are goopy/runny all the time.. But I think we're back on track now.


----------



## minnieme

Aside from the stress colitis diagnosis, was there anything even remotely abnormal in the fecal sample?


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## CoverTune

I didn't end up doing a fecal. We're a brand new clinic and still don't have pricing from the lab yet.


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## CoverTune

I'm thinking about trying turkey with George again tomorrow. He's been eating bone-in chicken with skin and had no problems since going on the metronidazole. If I do it, I'll just give him a TINY piece.. almond sized.


----------



## CoverTune

So, Mr George is down to 12.5lbs and his breastbone is clearly protruding when he sits. As of two days ago, he's been getting approx. 5oz/day split into three meals, which is about 2.2% for his "ideal weight". He's getting chicken wings with the skin left on, and I have been sneaking in one tiny piece of turkey per day and so far, we don't seem to have any digestive upset.

When making a change in feeding amount with kibble, it generally took about 2 weeks to see a difference in the dog's body condition.. is it the same with raw? Should I keep him at the 5oz for another 12 days, or should I add in a bit more every couple of days, or.. ? His body condition is really starting to scare me.


----------



## magicre

how is his poo? has it stabilised?

no digestive upset with a little turkey is good.....you could probably increase his food by a 1/2 ounce per day and slowly include the turkey....

is he getting fat or are you stripping the fat off still?


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## CoverTune

Poops are good, and he's getting all the skin and fat left on the chicken... which I have to say, makes things SOO much easier, lol.


----------



## magicre

then i would say it's time for a new protein...work on first, increasing his food by 1/2 ounce....and slowly increase the turkey.....but feed with bony meal.

do that for at least two weeks, given his stomach......

and then you can start including boneless....


----------



## CoverTune

Do you think I should try switching him to beef, or pork, instead of turkey? Or is that a terrible idea? lol

ETA: What do you think about beef ribs for Corona (3.6lbs)? Not as edible bone, but something for her to get a good chewing workout. Would that be ok, or risky for her remaining teeth?


----------



## Liz

Yes, I give my little shelties ribs and they can't get through the bone but love chewing. The littlest pup is about 11 pounds so she is tiny. I am glad George is doing better - he is slim but not scary skinny, once some red meat and heart is added in he will get some really nice muscle tone in and look really good. Keep up the good work.


----------



## magicre

i think for george, turkey necks and boneless turkey are next, as well as for corona.

beef is rich....and you're not there yet.

george is not scary skinny.....we are so used to seeing our dogs kind of meaty...we are not used to seeing them lean.

going faster will not make the process easier. 

you're doing great. and if you take your time, and intro protein by protein, from easiest to digest to richer red meats....your dogs' intestinal tracts will thank you. so will your carpets.


----------



## CoverTune

Ok, I'll be good.. turkey it is, lol. 

I think I'm going to start beef with Corona... she can now do chicken, turkey, pork and boneless meals without issue. I'll just start adding a bit to a bony meal.

I've also learned the hard way that I cannot prepare a week's worth of food and have it in the fridge for them.. I'll have to just do 3-4 days worth at a time. Annoying.


----------



## magicre

it gets easier with time.

agreed on corona.....but thumb sized first, then increase. beef is richer than anything else. well, except for hearts.


----------



## CoverTune

*cry* George has the runs again.


----------



## magicre

CoverTune said:


> *cry* George has the runs again.


go drink. then breathe. then tell us what happened.

what was he fed differently than yesterday or the day before.

keep in mind that once the intestinal tract is not so good...it takes a while to get back to normal......trust me, i know just how you feel.


----------



## CoverTune

Nothing changed.. still just chicken wing with a little bit of turkey, same thing he's had all week. Chicken has been getting a bit stanky, but not THAT bad, he ate worse before without issue. I don't know how bad the poop was, the other girl at work found it and had it mostly cleaned up by the time I got there, but there was definitely a really runny element.

Should I fast him now? And go back to straight chicken, again? This is getting ridiculous..


----------



## SaharaNight Boxers

Did you ever try adding in a probiotic?


----------



## CoverTune

I did.. it didn't seem to make any difference. I think I still have some though, so I could give some when I get home.

I was just wandered around the clinic, and found another poop puddle. Not pure liquid like he was having before, but definitely no form whatsoever, just a puddle that looked almost greasy.


----------



## SaharaNight Boxers

Since he's in a clinic could he have picked up a germ?


----------



## magicre

he is on three meals a day now?

how many ounces total and when did you increase his food?


----------



## CoverTune

SaharaNight Boxers said:


> Since he's in a clinic could he have picked up a germ?


Unlikely, we haven't had anything come in since Wednesday, and that was a lumpectomy, an ear infection, and an elderly cat.

He is getting 3 meals a day which totals about 5.1oz.. give or take 0.1oz either way. I did the increase on Monday.

ETA: His last meal was at about 5pm. Usually I'd feed him again now, but I think I'll hold off for tonight.. I'd rather have to clean up hunger pukes than diarrhea.


----------



## magicre

also, tomorrow, get some slippery elm and some low sodium chicken broth.....the slippery elm will line his intestinal tract. i have a feeling he has a little colitis from previous diarrhea....

he is obviously hungry.....so feed him..... just a little....

.....if he's going to have the runs...he might as well have some food in him.


----------



## magicre

by how much did you increase his food?

he's on 5.1 oz. what was he on before?


----------



## CoverTune

Where would I find slippery elm? Specialty pet store, or could I get it at a human pharmacy?

He definitely is hungry, poor buggar.. he's sitting in his crate (where he gets fed) and staring at me sadly.. I'll see if I've got a little piece of chicken.. or should he have bone? Good lord, I feel like a complete idiot.

He was on 4.4oz for a while, in 2 meals per day... then up to the 5.1oz in 3 meals. Too fast? If so, why would it have taken so long for him to react?


----------



## magicre

no....i don't think you are doing anything wrong.

give him a little piece of chicken with a tiny piece of bone. the worst that can happen is you'll have diarrhea to clean up.

super supplements has slippery elm....in powder form and in capsule form....

mix it with some pedialyte ( you can get that at any walgreen or store like that) and some low sodium chicken broth.

don't feel stupid.....george probably has a little colitis.


----------



## CoverTune

K, so I did 0.5oz... then he went outside and ate some poop. :tongue1: Jerk.

Should I still feed him tomorrow, or just give the slippery elm mixture and see how he does? And I assume no more turkey until things clear up.. actually, do you think he could be allergic to the turkey?? I'm pretty sure the last time he got the runs was when I tried to intro the turkey too..


----------



## magicre

no..you're overthinking, which i can hardly blame you, since i do the same thing.

he is old and has old insides. they are not, in his case, going to transition as easily as corona.....

actually, he's doing pretty good....

does he eat poop often? my old girl, who is twelve, who never used to eat poo before, now has...and i have to stop her, although it's not an often thing. perhaps she is a gourmand poo eater. 

you can give turkey and chicken....bony plus boneless....

just get the slippery elm and give him a half a capsule or the equivalent in powder twice a day, i think..i'm going from memory here....and some chicken broth to keep him hydrated....

and it hopefully will soothe the savage intestinal tract that's been a little bruised and battered over the past several weeks.

he'll get there...


----------



## SaharaNight Boxers

I was thinking colitis possibly. Duke had it when he was little, his poops were literally clear liquid and he'd just poop crouch wherever poor dog...anyway if he does have colitis one thing I was told is they are probably crampy too so he may not want to eat. I know he went on some prescription canned dog food. I think it was SD....I read the ingredients and I felt bad for feeding him it. He was better after probably a day or two on this food. He's still on kibble though also, so it was t that big of a deal for me, but it was also before I found raw. So a better alternative to that I've found now is Grandma Lucy's Rescue Remedy. It's freeze dried chicken and rice and while it might not be all raw which I know isn't the best. I've heard of great success with this and it might just help him get on track.


----------



## CoverTune

CAN I skip turkey and just try going to pork? If you really think I should stick with turkey, I will.. I'm just awfully leery of it now, since both times I've tried it with him he's ended up having diarrhea.

Eating poop is certainly not a rare occurrence for him, but I sure wish he would cut it out!

I gave him a chicken back this morning, and will grab some slippery elm when I go out this afternoon.


----------



## Herzo

Just wanted to add I think I read the chicken was a little off? If this is right maybe make sure he doesn't eat it unless it's fresh. Your doing a good job. And so is re.


----------



## magicre

if he still has the runs. hell to the no. 

he can have chicken and turkey. that's two proteins. i promise on my dog's life that he is okay. dogs, like humans, have a storage of nutrients. 

it would take longer than this to deplete what he's got.


----------



## CoverTune

Wow.. $23 for slippery elm powder, this stuff better be magic!


----------



## magicre

well, it's pretty magical. but i don't remember spending 23.00...hmmmm

i think i bought this one...or one similar....

Nature's Herbs Slippery Elm Bark -- 100 Capsules - Vitacost


----------



## CoverTune

I couldn't find it at the grocery store or pharmacy, so I had to get this stuff at the pet store:

Urban Carnivore Slippery Elm

I mixed it with water, as directed, and George slurped it all up. Thinking I'll give a chicken neck and a touch of turkey for his dinner, with another dose of slippery elm.


----------



## magicre

i thought the directions were once in the morning and once in the evening.....

feed him for sure...this will clear up as it clears up.

don't overfeed and take it slowly. he's an old boy.....old boys can sometimes take longer.


----------



## CoverTune

We've got semi-solid poop now, it's formed but still really soft. I'll keep the meals relatively bone heavy with the chicken necks for now. He's still getting turkey now as well, so hopefully that will continue to go well and I can consider another protein for him in a week or two. Sticking around 5oz per day at this point.


----------



## magicre

slippery elm is good for a few days.....but then you'll have to stop it and see what happens...

i really think chicken broth is in order to soothe the intestinal walls.....pedialyte wouldn't hurt either when you stop the slippery elm.


----------



## CoverTune

I actually didn't give slippery elm today, so I guess I'll see where we're at tomorrow.


----------



## magicre

ok. let us know.....


----------



## CoverTune

More puke.. bile is REALLY hard to get out of the carpet, ugh. Not sure why he puked, his last meal was around 9:30pm, and he puked at 6:20am, a good sized pile of bones and bile. At least he was kind enough to hop off the bed to do it, lol.

Poops looked fine this morning, all formed. Hopefully we're back on track again.


----------



## magicre

folex from bed bath and beyond takes it out.

what are his feeding times?

his transition is a rough one.....i know. and i'm sorry that it's happening to you. then again, i was sorry when it happened to me. 

how are his stools today?


----------



## CoverTune

First meal is generally around 8:30am, second meal at about 5pm, and third about 9pm.

I definitely don't mind vomit as much as diarrhea! lol


----------



## xellil

yep, that yellow stuff is like it has dye in it or something.

I think alot of times it just resolves itself. Rebel did it for weeks and one day he pretty much stopped. He had a puke maybe two weeks ago after a couple of months of nothing.


----------



## magicre

CoverTune said:


> First meal is generally around 8:30am, second meal at about 5pm, and third about 9pm.
> 
> I definitely don't mind vomit as much as diarrhea! lol


i guess if i had to choose, i'd go with yellow puke, too.

i am not so sure that this isn't normal.

how are the stools? any better?


----------



## CoverTune

Stools are good today!


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## magicre

i have waited 22 pages to hear you say this. 

don't change anything for at least a week. k?


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## CoverTune

Lol got it!

We have more vomit. *facepalm*


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## magicre

it will clear up.....my pug did it for weeks.....then we upped his food and he got fat.....

malia did it too.....i don't think it's all that uncommon...


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## CoverTune

Fish! Yeah, we're starting fish, with both dogs. 0.2oz each, added to one meal a day. Corona has also been getting the occasional piece of chicken liver, frozen, also 0.2oz at a time.

Georgie's teeth are getting some nasty plaque and tartar on them, so as of last night, I'm letting him chew on the beef rib that Corona has stripped 99.5% clean. He also has yet to start putting any weight back on, but he seems to have stopped losing.. he weighs himself at the clinic every day and it's always the same. So I'm less freaked out about that, and hope that once I get him on pork or beef, he'll get some muscle mass back.


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