# Supplements: Vitamin E and Fish Oil



## Grey (Jul 6, 2012)

I've had Quinn on Spring Valley Omega 3 Fish Oil 1000MG (note: you can get twin packs at Wal-mart for about $7 if on sale) for just over a year now after a recommendation from Iowa State due to her early stages of hip dysplasia. She receives one a day and it works well for her.

I've been reading around and have noticed that the general consensus is that puppies can also have fish oil. Would I be all right feeding my 35 pound, nearly-5 month old 1000mg or is this too high?

Additionally, I have a bottle of NatureMade Vitamin E at 200 I.U. I've also read that Vitamin E capsules are okay for dogs, too, but have never tried it. Does anyone have any experience with this? Could I give both of them a pill of this per day? I think 200 I.U. is a fairly low dose.


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## doggiedad (Jan 23, 2011)

isn't there enough vitamin E in your dog's food? fish oil, it's the oil from what fish?


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## Grey (Jul 6, 2012)

There might be. I didn't think of that -- duh...

He's on Fromm's Gold Large Breed Puppy: 210 I.U. as is / 225.39 I.U. dry matter
She's on Fromm's Gold Adult: 180 I.U. as is / 193.03 I.U. dry matter

And Spring Valley doesn't specify the type of fish it's from:
http://www.healthy-oil-planet.com/spring-valley-fish-oil.html


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## doggiedad (Jan 23, 2011)

i live for the duh moments. i have them all of the time. duh!!



Grey said:


> There might be. I didn't think of that -- duh...
> 
> He's on Fromm's Gold Large Breed Puppy: 210 I.U. as is / 225.39 I.U. dry matter
> She's on Fromm's Gold Adult: 180 I.U. as is / 193.03 I.U. dry matter
> ...


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## DaViking (Sep 27, 2011)

I believe in bumping up vitamin E doses. Vitamin E starts to get depleted already in the bag as a scavenger, before anything is eaten. I personally believe many foods are deficient in vit E, you don't reap the benefits of its many functions because most of it is already used up as a scavenger. 300-400 IU


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## monster'sdad (Jul 29, 2012)

There is enough real research at this point showing fish oil is not as effective or as safe as Perna. I would talk to your vet about using Perna instead. I think fish oil will become the pet rock of nutrition at some point, as each study that comes out shows it doesn't do that much as a therapy. 

Funny how people do nothing but talk about glucosamine and fish oil while the evidence is simply not there, especially for glucosamine.


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## DeekenDog (Aug 29, 2011)

I give fish oil and Vitamin E but for coat/nails, not for joints. My 68 lb dog gets 1200 mg fish oil and 200 IU Vit E twice daily. These are the recommended doses for his weight. I have no idea what would be considered a therapeutic dose for joints.


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## Kat (Jul 12, 2011)

If I were you I would look into a better fish oil. I was not able to find what type of fish they use in their fish oil, and I do not like how they coat the capsules, that is very strange. I do not like the looks of the fish oil you posted. JMHO


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## BearMurphy (Feb 29, 2012)

I think there are pretty clear recommendations available on the internet if you google it. I want so say it's something like 300 epa/dha per 30 lbs of body weight for maintenance and more for therapeutic reasons, so don't just go by the total mg of the capsule. There is also a recommendation for vitamin e dosages by body weight because it is believed that fish oil can deplete the body's levels of vitamin E but it's not something you want to overdue either.

I would say to ask your vet but some aren't really knowledgeable about balancing out fish oil with vitamin e. Once you do some research it's worth a try though


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## Grey (Jul 6, 2012)

monster'sdad said:


> Funny how people do nothing but talk about glucosamine and fish oil while the evidence is simply not there, especially for glucosamine.


Not to come off as rude, but I couldn't disagree with your statement re: glucosamine more. The changes I've seen in Quinn's hip dysplasia and joints while on a glucosamine/chondroitin sulfate supplement (Nutramax DS) are profound. It has made a huge difference. It wasn't a wham-bam overnight change, but it was a significant gradual change given the fact that her x-rays looked horrible. Several people have commented on her progress. Keep in mind, she's under two years old -- not the average age for hip dysplasia problems. I'd not hesitate for one minute to reccommend the routine we have her on to any dog with researched joint problems. Jack Hanna promotes the line, which some probably laugh at and think it's a gimmick because of that.

The fish oil combination with the Nutramax was recommended by an expensive visit to Iowa State. I know there's not as much that is to be said about fish oil, though. Some vets believe there are benefits for joints, while others view it simply as a coat conditioner. I just know that Quinn's progress has went leaps and bounds when we started her on this combination.



Kat said:


> If I were you I would look into a better fish oil. I was not able to find what type of fish they use in their fish oil, and I do not like how they coat the capsules, that is very strange. I do not like the looks of the fish oil you posted. JMHO


Thanks! I bought it because it was on this list for human-grade reputable brands organized by safety levels of ingredients: Fish Oil Supplements Guide - Seafood Selector - Environmental Defense Fund -- I'm going to look around into other brands after these bottles are finished, though.


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## Kat (Jul 12, 2011)

Different things work for different dogs. I'm glad you found something to help with her joints. Butlike I said, my only suggestion is to look into a better fish oil. I use Carlson's omega 3 gems as I bought a years supply lol.


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## Unosmom (May 3, 2009)

What about raw eggs? I never thought to supplement with vit E, they just get liquid salmon oil and fresh eggs on weekly basis.


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## monster'sdad (Jul 29, 2012)

Grey said:


> Not to come off as rude, but I couldn't disagree with your statement re: glucosamine more. The changes I've seen in Quinn's hip dysplasia and joints while on a glucosamine/chondroitin sulfate supplement (Nutramax DS) are profound. It has made a huge difference. It wasn't a wham-bam overnight change, but it was a significant gradual change given the fact that her x-rays looked horrible. Several people have commented on her progress. Keep in mind, she's under two years old -- not the average age for hip dysplasia problems. I'd not hesitate for one minute to reccommend the routine we have her on to any dog with researched joint problems. Jack Hanna promotes the line, which some probably laugh at and think it's a gimmick because of that.
> 
> The fish oil combination with the Nutramax was recommended by an expensive visit to Iowa State. I know there's not as much that is to be said about fish oil, though. Some vets believe there are benefits for joints, while others view it simply as a coat conditioner. I just know that Quinn's progress has went leaps and bounds when we started her on this combination.
> 
> ...


I think everyone would like to find a natural silver bullet for problems. Sadly though G & C for joint problems simply does not work, for dogs or people. Perhaps if fed long-term, but who knows. Fish oil might be good for nutritional purposes as a source of fat, but the data as a therapy is simply not there. 

Science-Based Medicine » The Top Ten Pet Supplements: Do They Work?

Insofar as supplements for joints, Perna is the only one with enough testing to show it helps. The mechanism is also well understood.


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## bett (Mar 15, 2012)

Glucosamine & Chondroitin for Hip Dysplasia & Arthritis in Dogs


there are studies pro and con


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## monster'sdad (Jul 29, 2012)

bett said:


> Glucosamine & Chondroitin for Hip Dysplasia & Arthritis in Dogs
> 
> 
> there are studies pro and con


That material is not a study, that is marketing material for Dr. Foster & Smith and not one study is cited in that article.


Science-Based Medicine » Glucosamine: The Unsinkable Rubber Duck

Glucosamine and Chondroitin for Arthritis: Benefit is Unlikely

Science-Based Medicine » Glucosamine Update: A New Study and a New Product

http://www.bmj.com/content/341/bmj.c4675

It does not work period.


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## bett (Mar 15, 2012)

ok, so i guess all the folks i talk to , who use it themselves , dont know what they're talking about. 
and i guess all the folks who give it to their pets, and see a difference, are just wishing it so.
ok.

http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/glucosamine/NS_patient-glucosamine/DSECTION=evidence


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## Kat (Jul 12, 2011)

I have seen first hand that fish oil works for joint problems in humans. My friends landlord has severe arthritis, she is an elderly lady and does not like to use medications from doctors. She has been using high doses of fish oil for years, and she has felt improvement. Before fish oil she couldn't go up or down stairs, now she can - of course she is still stiff, it's not like she is walking up and down stairs with ease, but it has made a significant change. There may not be lots of scientific research behind it, but it does work.


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## naturalfeddogs (Jan 6, 2011)

bett said:


> ok, so i guess all the folks i talk to , who use it themselves , dont know what they're talking about.
> and i guess all the folks who give it to their pets, and see a difference, are just wishing it so.
> ok.
> 
> http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/glucosamine/NS_patient-glucosamine/DSECTION=evidence


No kidding. I guess our older horse who is on a glucoseamine/condroiten supplement really isn't being helped. 
It's just my imagination that he isn't stiff in his hocks anymore. It's my imagination also when I see him lope across the pasture.


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## bett (Mar 15, 2012)

i wonder why dr. tim adds it to some of his foods?

http://dogfoodchat.com/forum/dry-ca...ats-ive-had-im-buying-tims-food-10-print.html

answered my own question, i guess.


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## flashyfawn (Mar 8, 2012)

I guess I don't feel like I need a study to tell me what I can see with my own eyes. My dog is slow to get up and slower on walks without her daily joint supp. With it, those symptoms disappear 100%. And I was skeptical at first because those aren't cheap and I don't like throwing my money at things that don't work. Now that said, I do think arthritis gets to the point where just a joint supp isn't going to work. My older girl Zoey is dealing with 3 bad legs and pain meds are her lifeline at this point. I did stop giving her the joint stuff because I could see no difference. I also think different products work for different dogs. I had tried Cosequin and Glycoflex and saw no change at all, but Hylasport really, truly does work for Madison.


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## larjo4 (Mar 8, 2013)

*Fish Oil Supplements*

Try Ocean Blue Professional. It's one of the better fish oil supplements on the market. Good for people and animals. They also have minicaps for those who cannot swallow larger pills. oceanblueprofessional.com


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## bett (Mar 15, 2012)

have you considered organic coconut oil?


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## monster'sdad (Jul 29, 2012)

Perna is really the only nutritional item that shows efficacy. It is not a silver bullet but it does help. Over and over and over, glucosamine and fish oil and have been shown to do nothing, especially glucosamine.

I have heard stories too, but if it can't be recreated and measured, it simply doesn't exist.

I highly recommend the book by R. Barker Bausell, PHD: *Snake Oil Science: The Truth About Complementary and Alternative Medicine.* It will save you a lot of money and may save your pet's (or your) life.

This is also a good link:


http://skeptvet.com/Blog/2010/06/holistic-vet-asks-if-cam-doesnt-work-why-is-it-allowed/

Has some interesting thoughts as to why people choose things that don't work.


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## bett (Mar 15, 2012)

monster'sdad said:


> Perna is really the only nutritional item that shows efficacy. It is not a silver bullet but it does help. Over and over and over, glucosamine and fish oil and have been shown to do nothing, especially glucosamine.
> 
> I have heard stories too, but if it can't be recreated and measured, it simply doesn't exist.
> 
> ...


kind of surprised you like dr tim's food, then. 
he believes in glucosamine, i wonder what he thinks of fish oil. i just answered my own question-he uses salmon oil . 

and if you are a skeptic regarding alternative medicine, dont use it.
others believe in it, and have proof that it works.
do you believe in acupuncture (just curious) or is that another fraud?
chinese herbs?


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## monster'sdad (Jul 29, 2012)

bett said:


> kind of surprised you like dr tim's food, then.
> he believes in glucosamine, i wonder what he thinks of fish oil. i just answered my own question-he uses salmon oil .
> 
> and if you are a skeptic regarding alternative medicine, dont use it.
> ...


Fish oil provides needed nutrition. Omega 3's are needed in the diet. Where the line is drawn is using fish oil for therapeutic purposes for something like arthritis.

Others believe in things that do not work, including accupuncture. The Chinese don't even use it. I love this quote about accupuncture:

"Acupuncture studies have shown that it makes no difference where you put the needles. Or whether you use needles or just pretend to use needles (as long as the subject believes you used them). Many acupuncture researchers are doing what I call Tooth Fairy science: measuring how much money is left under the pillow without bothering to ask if the Tooth Fairy is real."

:smile:


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## PDXdogmom (Jun 30, 2010)

Here's a supplement that includes both glucosamine & chondroitin as well as the perna (green lipid mussel). It might increase the chances of the product working for more dogs than just using one or the other.

Supplements - Endure


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## monster'sdad (Jul 29, 2012)

PDXdogmom said:


> Here's a supplement that includes both glucosamine & chondroitin as well as the perna (green lipid mussel). It might increase the chances of the product working for more dogs than just using one or the other.
> 
> Supplements - Endure


The active ingredient in that supplement is Perna, and that would be the reason to use it.


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## bett (Mar 15, 2012)

monster'sdad said:


> Fish oil provides needed nutrition. Omega 3's are needed in the diet. Where the line is drawn is using fish oil for therapeutic purposes for something like arthritis.
> 
> Others believe in things that do not work, including accupuncture. The Chinese don't even use it. I love this quote about accupuncture:
> 
> ...


"the chinese dont even use it"/

that's weird, because i know chinese that use it, do it, and believe in it . i'm guessing you mean in china?

and please, dont quote from the straight dope. i read it already.


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## monster'sdad (Jul 29, 2012)

bett said:


> "the chinese dont even use it"/
> 
> that's weird, because i know chinese that use it, do it, and believe in it . i'm guessing you mean in china?
> 
> and please, dont quote from the straight dope. i read it already.


So then you know it doesn't work. Study after study shows it is a sham. I remember reading the study where poking patients with wooden toothpicks was actually more effective.


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## bett (Mar 15, 2012)

monster'sdad said:


> So then you know it doesn't work. Study after study shows it is a sham. I remember reading the study where poking patients with wooden toothpicks was actually more effective.


please, dont put words into my mouth. i never said it doesnt work. straight dope says that. then there's other articles that say it does work.
do you know anyone who had acupuncture? i did. and it worked. and the chinese do use it. during a time many moons ago, when the communists took over, they didnt allow it. in today's world, it is used.
i'm guessing you only believe in traditional medicine, even for your dogs.
good think i went elsewhere. especially after the internist told me to enjoy the few weeks i had left with rex. that was in june. he just turned 11 and has normal liver levels , for the last 4 months.
yeah, those chinese herbs.
and some voo doo.


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## FBarnes (Feb 17, 2013)

Here is a list of the research referenced by the company that makes Dasequin and Cosequin. This is the list of references for joint health - there are just as many each for liver, intestinal, and oxidative health. So monster's dad you've read every one of these articles plus the hundred more just by this one manufacturer and determined their products have no efficacy? 

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## FBarnes (Feb 17, 2013)

Just doing a cursory search and look in PubMed I find several trials that are on the surface positive. Plus some negative. Here's one. I don't think anyone can say glucosamine supplements don't work with any degree of certitude.

Vet J. 2007 Jul;174(1):54-61. Epub 2006 May 2.
Randomised double-blind, positive-controlled trial to assess the efficacy of glucosamine/chondroitin sulfate for the treatment of dogs with osteoarthritis.
McCarthy G, O'Donovan J, Jones B, McAllister H, Seed M, Mooney C.
Source
Department of Small Animal Clinical Studies, School of Agriculture, Food Science and Veterinary Medicine, College of Life Sciences, UCD Dublin, Belfield, Dublin 4, Ireland. [email protected]
Abstract
Thirty-five dogs were included in a randomised, double-blind, positive controlled, multi-centre trial to assess the efficacy of an orally-administered glucosamine hydrochloride and chondroitin sulfate (Glu/CS) combination for the treatment of confirmed osteoarthritis of hips or elbows. Carprofen was used as a positive control. Dogs were re-examined on days 14, 42 and 70 after initiation of treatment. Medication was then withdrawn and dogs were re-assessed on day 98. Response to treatment was based on subjective evaluation by participating veterinarians who recorded their findings at each visit. *Dogs treated with Glu/CS showed statistically significant improvements in scores for pain, weight-bearing and severity of the condition by day 70 (P<0.001). Onset of significant response was slower for Glu/CS than for carprofen-treated dogs. The results show that Glu/CS has a positive clinical effect in dogs with osteoarthritis.*


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