# Question about fish



## Lynn In Tenn (Aug 20, 2009)

My dogs are getting alot of deer meat right now. Is it still necessary to feed them fish once a week also????


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## DaneMama (Jun 27, 2008)

I would recommend it because there are omega 3 fatty acids in fish that will help with skin and coat. If not for that it would also be a good thing to include in their diet to give them as much variety as possible. Fresh, whole fish are best (especially salmon-but its $$$) but canned mackarel, salmon, tuna or sardines would be just fine. We feed whole tilapia and pollock, but only the Danes will eat them whole. The others only get canned.


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## Lynn In Tenn (Aug 20, 2009)

Thanks Natalie. I agree, fish is expensive. Gonna have to get the fishing pole out:biggrin: I fed them canned mackeral last week for the first time. They lapped it up. Get it for $1 a can at Dollar General Market. This raw diet is great!!!! The only thing they've turned their nose to is kidney. I did the same But they will get their organ meat, just not kidney.


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## RawFedDogs (Jun 16, 2008)

There is just as much O3's in Deer meat as in fish, maybe more. Any animal that eats a natural diet will have a lot of O3's in his body. It's the domestic animals like cows, pigs, etc that are fed "artificial" food that lack O3's.


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## DaneMama (Jun 27, 2008)

Technically you could supplement her with flaxseed oil, considering all the omega 3 fatty acids found in raw meats is plant derived in the first place. Fish and mammals cannot produce their own omega 3's and therefore get it from their diet, hence why mammals/fish (deer, beef, chicken, fish...etc) fed a natural plant based diet have higher levels of omega 3's.

There is some debate about fish oils, or cold water fish (salmon, mackarel, sardines) being contaminated by heavy metals. But from all the research I have done, if fishes are fed in moderation you shouldn't have a problem at all. I guess this would be a reason to stay away from supplementing with fish oil caps since the oils are more concentrated, altho we still give them occasionally more as a treat than anything.

I would still add in fish to the diet for variety alone. It is one of my dog's favorite meals...heck Bailey and Akasha eat two whole tilapia every morning. If your dog enjoys fish and you can afford to feed it...why not?


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## Lynn In Tenn (Aug 20, 2009)

RawFedDogs said:


> There is just as much O3's in Deer meat as in fish, maybe more. Any animal that eats a natural diet will have a lot of O3's in his body. It's the domestic animals like cows, pigs, etc that are fed "artificial" food that lack O3's.


So if they are getting a lot of deer meat, then I should not have to worry about fish???? Can they get too much Omega 3????


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## RawFedDogs (Jun 16, 2008)

Lynn In Tenn said:


> So if they are getting a lot of deer meat, then I should not have to worry about fish???? Can they get too much Omega 3????


No I don't think you can OD on O3's. :smile: In your case I don't think you have to worry too much about fish for the purpose of O3's but they are still good for variety. If they are a problem for you, don't worry about them.



> *danemama08:* Technically you could supplement her with flaxseed oil, considering all the omega 3 fatty acids found in raw meats is plant derived in the first place.


The problem is how well carnivorous dogs absorb nutrients from plants ... Not very well. Herbivores and omnivores ... much better.


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## DaneMama (Jun 27, 2008)

RawFedDogs said:


> The problem is how well carnivorous dogs absorb nutrients from plants ... Not very well. Herbivores and omnivores ... much better.


NO!!! REALLY??? I had NO idea that was so :tongue:

I will break this down even further for you to understand:

If you give a dog a whole flaxseed, its going to come out the same way it went in, unscathed. Hence, not being able to use any of the omega 3's from whole veggies/seeds. Same thing with something like whole broccoli. So you are 100% right about dogs not being able to get nutrition from whole veggies and fruits.

Dogs cannot digest _cellulose_, but the minerals and nutrients within the plant cells, *of course*. The problem is getting to those minerals/nutrients past the barrier of the cell wall. In this case we are talking about omega 3 fatty acids. 

Nutrients, minerals, fatty acid chains, etc are not different from species to species...ie they are the same if found within an animal cell or plant cell. Dogs will use these the exact same way, no matter the source. Again, the problem is...getting to those nutrients, minerals, fatty acid chains, etc.

There are no "omnivore" nutrients or "carnivore" nutrients, calcium is calcium, phosphorus is phosphorus, magnesium is magnesium, omega 3 fatty acids are omega 3 fatty acids, so on and so forth. The elements are the building blocks of these nutrients (fatty acids), and therefore have no "variety" in terms of who uses them. 

The differences between species is what is found where and who produces what. In the case of fatty acids like omega 3's, plants are the ones that *produce* them. They are found in cold water fishes, like salmon and herring, because they eat algae that is rich in omega 3's. They are not changed into "carivore" fatty acid chains within the fish therefore making them suitable for dogs to use, just like the flaxseed doesn't produce "omnivore" fatty acids.

When flaxseed oil is *extruded* from the whole flaxseed (ie taken OUT of the plant cell wall), the fatty acid chains are available for the dog to use, just like the fatty acids found in fish or venison or grass fed beef or grain fed chickens. They are not contained in some omnivore only vesicle or something, that is what the plant cell wall is there for.

All in all, it is 100% ok and worthwhile to give dogs flaxseed oil caps as a supplement. Do they need them when they get enough in their diet? Nope...but you can give them and the dog *will* use the omega 3's!



End rant :biggrin:


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## RawFedDogs (Jun 16, 2008)

Ok, I'm gonna change it just a little to see what you think. It has never been proven that a human absorbs any vitamins from a vitamin pill. It has never been proven that a human benefits from taking vitamin pills. If this is true of humans, I think we can conclude this would be the same for all mammals. 

Sooo ... if its not proven that a human can absorb vitamins in supplement form, couldn't we also conclude the same be true with O3's? So the question is, does a dog actually absorb O3's from supplements whether plant or animal or chemical originated?


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## rannmiller (Jun 27, 2008)

danemama08 said:


> There are no "omnivore" nutrients or "carnivore" nutrients, calcium is calcium, phosphorus is phosphorus, magnesium is magnesium, omega 3 fatty acids are omega 3 fatty acids, so on and so forth. The elements are the building blocks of these nutrients (fatty acids), and therefore have no "variety" in terms of who uses them.


Sorry, I'm gonna have to go off topic a little and disagree with this statement. Saying that calcium is calcium and protein is protein no matter where it comes from so it doesn't matter if carnivores or omnivores eat it is erroneous. As we have all come to learn, glutens are plant-based proteins, which are still proteins, but completely inappropriate for a carnivore to ingest, much like how beef would be terribly inappropriate for a chicken to eat. Same goes for calcium: it is much better and more appropriate for a dog to get its calcium from bones and egg shells rather than lapping up a bowl of milk. 

Just thought I should add that.


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## DaneMama (Jun 27, 2008)

RawFedDogs said:


> Ok, I'm gonna change it just a little to see what you think. It has never been proven that a human absorbs any vitamins from a vitamin pill. It has never been proven that a human benefits from taking vitamin pills. If this is true of humans, I think we can conclude this would be the same for all mammals.
> 
> Sooo ... if its not proven that a human can absorb vitamins in supplement form, couldn't we also conclude the same be true with O3's? So the question is, does a dog actually absorb O3's from supplements whether plant or animal or chemical originated?


I have no idea if that is true or not. From what I know and have heard, supplementation does work, but there are better forms than others. I know that when I give my dogs too many fish oil caps...they start to smell like them. In that fact alone I know that their bodies are at least absorbing the O3's. Are they using them? I have no clue!!! I would think so since they are expelling the fishy scent from the oil glands in their skin...which is why O3's are given right? Skin and coat?

I would think that if humans cannot absorb nutrients in supplement form, then there would be massive amounts of lawsuits against them. There are clinical forms of vitamins/minerals, and if they don't work people's lives would be at stake. 

But....if people's daily diets were 100% species appropriate, etc, etc...then we wouldn't have to take supplements at all and probably most disease would be unheard of. Just like what we do with our dogs.



rannmiller said:


> Sorry, I'm gonna have to go off topic a little and disagree with this statement. Saying that calcium is calcium and protein is protein no matter where it comes from so it doesn't matter if carnivores or omnivores eat it is erroneous. As we have all come to learn, glutens are plant-based proteins, which are still proteins, but completely inappropriate for a carnivore to ingest, much like how beef would be terribly inappropriate for a chicken to eat. Same goes for calcium: it is much better and more appropriate for a dog to get its calcium from bones and egg shells rather than lapping up a bowl of milk.
> 
> Just thought I should add that.


I agree with you 1000% about the protein. There are plant proteins and animal proteins and they are VERY different. That is why if you reread that paragraph, I in no way put anything in there about proteins. The elements that make up the amino acids, that make up the proteins are all the same...no matter the source. 

Also, you are way off topic about the calcium too in the same way. I was just stating that the calcium found in plants is the EXACT same calcium found in bones (guess where the calcium comes from that is found in bones??? Plants-an herbivore's diet). I was not in any way saying that dogs should drink milk to get calcium. Nor am I saying that it's appropriate to feed your dog plants to get calcium. They are carnivores for a reason, and therefore should eat meat, bones and organs.

Omega 3 fatty acids are the same whether they are found in animal sources or plant. Dogs will only benefit from omega's from plants if they are EXTRUDED first. Basically break past the cell wall boundary in order to get them. I am in no way saying that you should give your dog flaxseeds in order to get the omega's inside.

I just wanted to make clear to the OP that she can supplement with the flaxseed caps, and to RFD that omega 3's found in flaxseed oil can be assimilated by a dog just the same as from salmon.

Would I ever give my dogs flaxseed oil caps by choice??? NOPE!!!


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## Lynn In Tenn (Aug 20, 2009)

Nice debate folks. I wasn't really thinking I needed to supplement for 03's. I was worried that they might be getting too much if I fed fish along with all the venison I was feeding.


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## Kristofski (Nov 18, 2009)

Lynn In Tenn said:


> Nice debate folks. I wasn't really thinking I needed to supplement for 03's. I was worried that they might be getting too much if I fed fish along with all the venison I was feeding.


I'm wondering if it would be somewhat similar to how the body processes "too many" vitamens? In humans, if your intake of vitamens per day, is over the recommended dose, then your body just flushes the rest out in your urine "unused" Maybe it would be the same with excess O3's? I dunno, just a thought


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## oakley (Nov 18, 2009)

RawFedDogs said:


> There is just as much O3's in Deer meat as in fish, maybe more. Any animal that eats a natural diet will have a lot of O3's in his body. It's the domestic animals like cows, pigs, etc that are fed "artificial" food that lack O3's.


Interesting!  :biggrin:


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## oakley (Nov 18, 2009)

Kristofski said:


> I'm wondering if it would be somewhat similar to how the body processes "too many" vitamens? In humans, if your intake of vitamens per day, is over the recommended dose, then your body just flushes the rest out in your urine "unused" Maybe it would be the same with excess O3's? I dunno, just a thought



I actually just saw on the news yesterday - that his theory has been busted.. sorta. Some vitamins, when taken in excess can cause cancer. This was a study in people. 


I would think a dog would be able to deal with excess, as in nature- they would eat ALL natural animals and get lots an lots of Omegas! :biggrin:


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## CorgiPaws (Mar 31, 2009)

oakley said:


> I actually just saw on the news yesterday - that his theory has been busted.. sorta. Some vitamins, when taken in excess can cause cancer. This was a study in people.
> 
> 
> I would think a dog would be able to deal with excess, as in nature- they would eat ALL natural animals and get lots an lots of Omegas! :biggrin:


Good point. 
I give Annie salmon oil like mad for heart health. About 5 "pumps" a day, but shen she goes on raw I don't think I'll need to. 
Well, maybe I will because I'm sorry, I LOVE my dogs, but free-range organic meats are in fact out of my price range. They get wal mart or target brand meats. lol.
Hey, at least it's not kibble, right?


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## Kristofski (Nov 18, 2009)

oakley said:


> I actually just saw on the news yesterday - that his theory has been busted.. sorta. Some vitamins, when taken in excess can cause cancer. This was a study in people.
> 
> 
> I would think a dog would be able to deal with excess, as in nature- they would eat ALL natural animals and get lots an lots of Omegas! :biggrin:


Wow, very interesting. Man, I need to keep updated hehe. Good to know though!


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## Lynn In Tenn (Aug 20, 2009)

Here's a little info I found on O3's. It pertains to supplements though, not raw. I'm still looking for that.

What Is the Recommended Dosage of Omega 3 for Dogs? | eHow.com


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## Lynn In Tenn (Aug 20, 2009)

Found this also:

Omega 3 for dogs is an excellent way to show your love. Omega 3 is for the whole family. If you are like me- the doggie is part of the family. He listens to me a lot better then both my kids and wife. A dog really is a man’s best friend. My dog named Barney “Stinky” Marsh has certainly benefited from increasing his Omega 3 levels. See some more of the Omega 3 Benefits 

Omega 3 is Important
A long time ago when dogs were wild animals they used to eat a lot like us humans. They are omnivores like us. Pretty much eat what ever they can get like plants and animals. The ratio of Omega 3 for dogs to Omega 6 was much closer like 1 to 5. Today the ratios are much worse then that. Dog’s diets are way too high in Omega 6. 
Dogs are almost totally reliant on us humans for their food. We all know what a terrible state our food is in these days. SO if they don’t care about people’s food they definitely do not care about dog’s food. So we have to take care of our dogs and make sure they get enough of the proper nutrients.


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## RawFedDogs (Jun 16, 2008)

Lynn In Tenn said:


> Omega 3 is Important
> A long time ago when dogs were wild animals they used to eat a lot like us humans. They are omnivores like us.


Where does that information come from??? Dogs are carnivores and always have been. If you would like information as to why they are carnivores, I can list them if you wish.


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## Kristofski (Nov 18, 2009)

I have read a few things in the past, that mention that the wild dogs would kill their prey, and proceed to eat the stomachs and contents of them... of their prey, and then they would consume the meat. In a prey animal, the stomach contents would be purely vegetation, meaning the dogs were consuming plant protines. Perhaps a tiny bit of vegetation could be considered natural?


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## Lynn In Tenn (Aug 20, 2009)

RawFedDogs said:


> Where does that information come from??? Dogs are carnivores and always have been. If you would like information as to why they are carnivores, I can list them if you wish.


Hey RFD. I didn't notice that in the article Had I paid attention to that I probably wouldn't have read the rest of it.:redface:


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## Lynn In Tenn (Aug 20, 2009)

Kristofski said:


> I have read a few things in the past, that mention that the wild dogs would kill their prey, and proceed to eat the stomachs and contents of them... of their prey, and then they would consume the meat. In a prey animal, the stomach contents would be purely vegetation, meaning the dogs were consuming plant protines. Perhaps a tiny bit of vegetation could be considered natural?


To the best of my knowledge, I think they would shake out the contents of the stomach before eating the stomach.


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## RawFedDogs (Jun 16, 2008)

Kristofski said:


> I have read a few things in the past, that mention that the wild dogs would kill their prey, and proceed to eat the stomachs and contents of them... of their prey, and then they would consume the meat. In a prey animal, the stomach contents would be purely vegetation, meaning the dogs were consuming plant protines. Perhaps a tiny bit of vegetation could be considered natural?


Lynn is right. They sissor open the stomach and shake out the stomach contents before eating the stomach. I've seen my dogs do it with whole rabbits many times. With smaller animals like squirrels or rats, they don't bother to do anything, they just crunch the animal a few times and swallow it almost whole.

There are a lot of articles around that say what you just did but years of research of wild wolves say different.

From David Mech's Wolves: Behavior, Ecology and Conservation (2003):

_"Wolves usually tear into the body cavity of large prey and...consume the larger internal organs, such as lungs, heart and liver. The large rumen [, which is one of the main stomach chambers in large ruminant herbivores,]...is usually punctured during removal and its contents spilled. The vegetation in the intestinal tract is of no interest to the wolves, but the stomach lining and intestinal wall are consumed, and their contents further strewn about the kill site."_
-p123

_"To grow and maintain their own bodies, wolves need to ingest all the major parts of their herbivorous prey, except the plants in the digestive system."_ 
-p124


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## Kristofski (Nov 18, 2009)

RawFedDogs said:


> Lynn is right. They sissor open the stomach and shake out the stomach contents before eating the stomach. I've seen my dogs do it with whole rabbits many times. With smaller animals like squirrels or rats, they don't bother to do anything, they just crunch the animal a few times and swallow it almost whole.
> 
> There are a lot of articles around that say what you just did but years of research of wild wolves say different.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the updated information. That info is new to me. I read an artical about the stomach, a long time ago, and I guess as you mentioned, they studied further to find differntly. Good to know


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## Todd (Jan 13, 2010)

Like many people have already said, yes it would be good to feed your dog fish once per week. I'd personally recommend 2 times per week. It is a great source of Omega 3 fatty acids, which is not only beneficial to the coat and skin, but also benefits the joints acting as a lube. Just like an engine needs oil to run, your dogs joints need oil to run smoothly. 

The only thing you need to look out for is mercury levels in fish. It's best to stick with salmon, which has the lowest mercury levels. Hope this helps. Good luck!:smile:


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