# prescribed dog food vs Acana



## Fougere

Our dog (lab shep x) will be 2 in Nov/13, last Dec he was diagnosed with osteoarthritis and had both front knees operated on. The vet suggested Hill's JD food which he has been on since last week also he takes 1 cosequin daily . we're trying Acana Pacifica, which he loves, however the vet is saying this food may not be the right choice for long term because of his condition and that there are too many nutrients in it. This doesn't make sense to me. We'll check the other Acana foods maybe with less nutrients, and hopefully find something for long term. Any ideas?


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## bett

you can always supplement a kibble of your choice, rather than the hills food.


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## Celt

I'm not sure about the nutrient comment either. Maybe ask the vet to go into more detail. I would feel uncomfortable feeding this food (only/main) diet due to protein and fat content.


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## Dr Dolittle

Fougere said:


> Our dog (lab shep x) will be 2 in Nov/13, last Dec he was diagnosed with osteoarthritis and had both front knees operated on. The vet suggested Hill's JD food which he has been on since last week also he takes 1 cosequin daily . we're trying Acana Pacifica, which he loves, however the vet is saying this food may not be the right choice for long term because of his condition and that there are too many nutrients in it. This doesn't make sense to me. We'll check the other Acana foods maybe with less nutrients, and hopefully find something for long term. Any ideas?


I am copying most of this from a previous post but it applies even more to a dog so young and diagnosed. The reason your vet recommended j/d is because he probably has seen how well it works! I know all the therapeutic diets out there and of the 4 vet diets for arthritis, j/d is the best. Basically it provides an incredible amount of Omega 3's to help reduce the pain and inflammation of arthritis.in fact, in clinical studies, it worked as well as any NSAID but it took longer, about 30 days. but the real magic of j/d is that it was formulated to actually turn down the expression of the genes that are producing the enzymes destroying your dog's cartilage! You could look up Nutrigenomics, the study of how nutrients affect gene expression. Hills and Purina have been studying it, as well as human medicine. Pretty amazing stuff actually! That is something no NSAID can do. Most orthopedic specialist who have no stake in the pet food sales or promotion, heartily recommend it. in fact, it is virtually impossible to feed enough supplements to get the amt of Omega 3's your dog will get in j/d. The other problem with feeding supplements is the ratio of Omega 3s to 6s. Omega 6's are great for skin and coat, but they increase inflammation, not good for your dog. Canine j/d is only one of two diets in the world that have more 3's then 6's. Normal food, no matter the quality will always be much higher in 6's, working against your supplements. Other therapies have been very useful as well, but again, you want to stop the damaging process. Canine j/d will do that in 30 to 45 days. If not by then, it won't work. Added glucosamine and chon is another good thing but supplements are totally unregulated so you have to go with trusted brands with research to back up their claims. Just know this. Their is not one study out there proving added glucosamine/ chon to a diet is beneficial. in fact, food companies can't add enough to be therapeutic, by law! That needs to be supplemented. Canine j/d to reduce the pain and inflammation and perhaps Dasaquin or Cosequin to help the body repair and you have a simple, safe, and a bit more affordable remedy. I don't like drugs but those NSAIDS are nice for immediate relief but not the healthiest long term. Your guy is way too young to start using NSAIDS and you should be looking for more natural remedies. Your guy is young but still an adult so the protein and fat are fine for him. Keeping him lean the rest of his life is a priority anyway. Not sure what your vet met by too many nutrients . I am not familiar with that other food but again, if it is not designed to treat the disease, why feed it. You could supplement but its pretty much a guessing game as to which supplement and how much. 

I would recommend you stay on the j/d for a few months and get familiar with how well your dog does. is he limping, does he go up stairs, etc. You know when he is feeling well. If you at that time what to come off the food and try something different you will then be able to see if something else works just as well, or better. As I said I know all the RX diets from all the companies very well and this is one of my favorites. never needed to feed it myself, but I know many dogs who got their lives back again from it. Most were older of course. Lets hope and pray your pup lives a long and as healthy and pain free life as possible so I would say be open to different therapies, including acupuncture and /or chiropractic but I can't stress enough to give the j/d 30 to 45 days to see if it has an impact. try and measure the results so then you can try other things and always go back. I know 2 dogs that were thriving on j/d but the pet owners thought it was too expensive. they switched to another RX joint diet that was just a little cheaper. In 2 months both were back on j/d. Some dogs get some gassy episodes with all that fish oil, much like people, but it isn't common. Kudos to your vet for not just rushing to drugs! I like that! God Bless


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## Roo

My concerns with J/D omega 3 therapeutic amounts would be the oxidation that could happen with the supplement being in the dog food itself, omega 3 is so sensitive to heat, light, and air. How much of it really survives the manufacturing, storage, and use of the product? Doesn't oxidized fatty acids have the potential to cause free radicals? At least with a supplement bottle of fish oil or krill oil, it's easy to keep in the fridge.


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## Dr Dolittle

Roo said:


> My concerns with J/D omega 3 therapeutic amounts would be the oxidation that could happen with the supplement being in the dog food itself, omega 3 is so sensitive to heat, light, and air. How much of it really survives the manufacturing, storage, and use of the product? Doesn't oxidized fatty acids have the potential to cause free radicals? At least with a supplement bottle of fish oil or krill oil, it's easy to keep in the fridge.


Roo, Your concerns are valid. WhenPurina came out with the first joint diet with high 3's from fish oil they did have that problem, and they had hardly the level that j/d has. Remember an RX diet like j/d will be tested as a finished product, measuring the surviving fatty acids in blood syrum tests. Most bags of dog food actually allow air transfer, enabling the bag to breathe. J/d is actually in an airtight bag with a zipper. And to reduce ax ideation, which is as you said, a major concern with fat and fatty acids, nitrogen is blown into the bag when it is sealed to help reduce that risk. I can honestly say I know of no rancidity issues with any of the RX joint diets out there, though none are as widely used as j/d. Like most of us, we gauge the quality of a food by how well our dogs do on it. I love the science of a diet like this but the results speak for themselves. By the way, fish oil fatty acids are much more stable than flax seed. the amounts of flax seed have to be increased to allow the damage that will occur in processing. But again, testing the levels in the dog being fed is key to knowing how much is therapeutic vs just adding some so you can claim it on the bag.


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## Roo

Are the bags ever tested after 3 or 4 months sitting on a shelf in a vet's office, or a food warehouse for surviving fatty acids? Most dog foods don't go directly to a consumer from the manufacturer.


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## Dr Dolittle

Roo said:


> Are the bags ever tested after 3 or 4 months sitting on a shelf in a vet's office, or a food warehouse for surviving fatty acids? Most dog foods don't go directly to a consumer from the manufacturer.


can't say whether bags are tested after a few moths. Know companies like Hills and others that make RX diets, keep bags of every batch made so they can test it if any issues should come up later. hats why there is that obscure batch number on many foods. I believe the Best if Sold By dates are 12 months for j/d, while 18 months on other dry foods. but yeah, no one gets that food directly from the manufacturer. I could think of issues like hot trucks in the summer, freezing trucks in the winter, etc. But to be honest, vets don't seem to see any issues. the food works within 30 to 45 days and has some pretty dramatic results. If the fatty acids were destroyed I don't believe it would work so well. And rancidity is much more serious than most pet owners might realize and we really never see that in name brand foods.


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## dogg

Can you explain how the ingredients are good?
Whole Grain Corn, Chicken By-Product Meal, Flaxseed, Soybean Mill Run, Brewers Rice, Soybean Meal, Pork Fat (preserved with mixed tocopherols and citric acid), Chicken Liver Flavor, Powdered Cellulose, Fish Oil, Lactic Acid, Potassium Chloride, L-Lysine, Calcium Carbonate, Choline Chloride, Iodized Salt, DL-Methionine, Vitamin E Supplement, vitamins (L-Ascorbyl-2-Polyphosphate (source of vitamin C), Vitamin E Supplement, Niacin, Thiamine Mononitrate, Vitamin A Supplement, Calcium Pantothenate, Biotin, Vitamin B12 Supplement, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride, Riboflavin, Folic Acid, Vitamin D3 Supplement), L-Threonine, Taurine, Soy Lecithin, Glucosamine Hydrochloride, minerals (Ferrous Sulfate, Zinc Oxide, Copper Sulfate, Manganous Oxide, Calcium Iodate, Sodium Selenite), L-Tryptophan, L-Carnitine, preserved with Mixed Tocopherols and Citric Acid, Chondroitin Sulfate, Phosphoric Acid, Beta-Carotene, Rosemary Extract.

I have seen a good food along with a good supplement work wonders, Glucosamine, Chondroitin, MSM, and Hyaluronic Acid is really what can help the joints, not corn, soybean, and byproducts.


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## Shamrockmommy

Although I don't have the expertise of Dr. Doolittle, I agree with dogg. My Darby has bilateral Hip Dysplasia and it's pretty bad. I was urged to put her on j/d and I just can't get past the corn, by products, flax and soy, soy , powdered cellulose, and more soy. Citric acid is corn also. 

I do a good quality food (grain free, because grains are inflammatory, especially glutenous grains) plus a high quality joint supplement with the things dogg listed plus mine has ester C in it and bromelian (wholistic pet carries it). 

She's doing well but is on adequan and metacam as needed.


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## PetFoodRatings.org

dogg said:


> I have seen a good food along with a good supplement work wonders, Glucosamine, Chondroitin, MSM, and Hyaluronic Acid is really what can help the joints, not corn, soybean, and byproducts.


That's exactly the point.

Ask your vet what his opinion is of a food made predominantly from corn, by-products, soybeans, and brewers rice. Perhaps he should feed his kids Mc Donalds sprinkled with crushed vitamin tablets?

Acana is a quality food, and should give your dog an excellent source of omega 3s for his joints.


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## bett

when rex was first poisoned during the diamond fiasco, my vet convinced me to use the ld food, and i did for a few weeks. 

then i switched to home a cooking, supplementing, a liver support diet. i added chinese herbs. now, 18 months after rex was pronounced, by an internist, in liver failure, i am still home cooking.

i went into the vet's office with the can of "food" and asked him to read the label and identify the protein.
enough said,when he said "i can't."

right.


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## dogg

Unfortunately most people only go by what they are told and think that will be the fix all. Little do they know it usually is only the start to more issues, fix something with something bad and then fix that with something else, add a couple shots and see you next week.


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## Dr Dolittle

Hey Dogg, I think a good way to explain how those ingredients are good, if not great) is to say that those ingredients deliver the exact nutrient levels that produce all the results I mentioned in the previous entries. Its really two very different perspectives which is why you asked. Nutrition used to be the science of delivering nutrients and optimal levels. Now it is who can come up with the most attractive ingredients to differenciate their food from everyone else and charge you more money. Every food company now playes the game with their diets for healthy dogs but therapeutic diets that are very specific do not have that luxury. When we actually look at an ingredient panel that is not manipulated to sell the client and it made simply for the benefit of the animal, we don't like it. Its okay, I know you will strongly disagree. That's cool. Well, it really isn't but I have learned its the way it is. We live in the information age which really just means we have way too much info from too many sources and most of it is simply to sell us something. Every day for the last 26 years I have seen the sad reality of canine and feline disease and have seen ho therapeutic diets from all 4 brands have helped dogs and cats live longer healthier lives and then read on here and other sites how these very diets are crap. Based on????? Well, I remember in '86 when Purina ProPlan came out "with chicken as the first ingredient" and a few years later Nutro pulled the "no By products" scam and both techniques today are mainstream myths so believed they are now facts. My son is studying nuclaer medicine and tells me that now a fact is determined by what the majority believes, not by the scientific model. So its everywhere. Critical thinking is gone. We just get online and find what we agree with. The majority of pet owners have been told corn is a worthless filler long enough that it is a fact. nevermind the fact it is an excellent source of carbs for energy, fatty acids, fiber for GI health, and even amino acids (protein). there are scores of studies and years of proof from the top nutritionists in the wolrd but we believe food companies with no research or not even anyone to do the research. Just drove by a sign that said, We have enough youth. What we need is a Fountain of Smart. Amen! LOL! Sorry for the rant, but you did ask! God Bless!


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## Dr Dolittle

One could ask what corn, by products, soybeans, and brewers rice have to do with an arthritic dog. I would say nothing. Flax seed and fish oil and the actual amount of Omega 3's especially EPA, and the ratio of #'s to 6's. I agree with glucosamine and Chondriotin but food cannot add enough to be therapeutic by law so I would use a proven supplement like Dasaquin or Cosaquin. I wonder what the actual levels of EPA and Omega 3's are in Acana. Do you know or do you just "believe"? If you really want to rate a food, that would be a good exercise. I can go to dog food advisor to get the usual ingredient nonsense. You should dig deeper and offer help to dog lovers. I assume thats your motivation, or our you selling something? Sorry, I haven't seen to your site.


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## LeonilCraig

Well, I must say this is the ultimate food mimics one that Mother Nature intended..


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## Georgiapeach

My older dogs did well when given the supplement: Cosequin DS plus MSM. I fed a grain free, fish based dog food (TOTW Pacific Stream or Acana Pacifica worked for my dogs-labs and boxers, plus a poodle with grade 4 luxating patellas), not worrying about the supplement levels in the food. I've read that it looks good on the bag, but doesn't really contain enough to do any good in reality; never mind what the processing does to them. When the joints get really bad, there are several pain relievers available to help provide relief (Rimadyl, Metacam, etc.).


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## Shamrockmommy

It's interesting to me that these therapeutic Rx diets are full of wheat, soy and corn, ALL of which cause inflammation. 
I choose a good, healthful, high quality food and add my own joint supplements at therapeutic levels appropriate for my dog's weight. 

I am quite sure it's based on emotion but I've seen the difference between my dogs on SD and on the higher end foo foo foods with fancy ingredients. <shrugs>
World of difference.


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## Dr Dolittle

LeonilCraig said:


> Well, I must say this is the ultimate food mimics one that Mother Nature intended..


It so want to agree with that and for people that might be true but the fact is nature is not very friendly to dogs in the wild and they don't get the luxury of geriatrics. Nutrition science has dogs living well past their wild counterparts, along with parasite control, vaccines, etc. Back to nature sounds really good and does sell dog food but I prefer science. As a wolf lover I wish we could do all we do for our domestic dogs for them too


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## Dr Dolittle

Shamrockmommy said:


> It's interesting to me that these therapeutic Rx diets are full of wheat, soy and corn, ALL of which cause inflammation.
> I choose a good, healthful, high quality food and add my own joint supplements at therapeutic levels appropriate for my dog's weight.
> 
> I am quite sure it's based on emotion but I've seen the difference between my dogs on SD and on the higher end foo foo foods with fancy ingredients. <shrugs>
> World of difference.


can't really say I know if grains cause inflammation. I will have to check on that. I know omega 6’s, which are great for skin and coat, contribute to inflammation and every dog food is much higher in 6’s than 3’s, so that is why an arthritic diet needs to invert that ratio. I know of no other diet that does that besides j/d. Again, we can cling to our favorite ingredients as pet food marketers want us to or dig deeper to the actual nutrient amounts. It's interesting that you believe certain diets are FULL of this or that, again, only because they are listed by actual weight and the company hasn't manipulated the ingredient panel to hide certain ingredients or promote other more desirable ones. We just have to accept we as consumers live on marketing. no wonder it costs 4 million dollars now for a 30 second commercial during the Super Bowl, while everyone of us is certain they have absolutely no effect on us! You're a good lady, Shamrocklady, and I always enjoy talking with you!


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## Shamrockmommy

I likely would have the same opinion as you, DrD, if I had learned what all you know. 

And again. I've fed the 'scientifically balanced and researched' foods and had itchy, yeasty, cow plop poopin' gassy dogs with dry, flakey skin. <shrugs> Don't have that on the foods I choose now.

May I add!! My very first foster dog, a toy poodle, is 20 years old this year!! Since age 7 he's been eating SD w/d (more for his digestion than anything else). There is NOTHING wrong with this guy. He gets an ooky ear now and again, but he's active and happy. Nice coat, poops just about every time you take him outside, but it's firm at least. So got to be something to that one, anyway! The ultimate test would be to feed it to my bichon, Darby, who is my 'canary in the coal mine' who will take only a few days to turn into a giant yeasty hot spot 

And thanks for calling me a good lady  I'm happy to 'know' you because you've taught me helpful things wrt dog food, which is pretty important to me.


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## flashyfawn

So what if you (generic "you", not directed at anyone in particular) had a very arthritic dog who could not tolerate NSAIDs, and for whom joint supplements no longer worked? Do you try the j/d or just let your dog hobble around?

Sometimes you really do have to suck it up and do what your dog needs, even if it isn't what you want your dog to need. As I've explained before, I always said I would never feed Hills but I have a dog who is thriving on w/d. She had a pretty serious case of pancreatitis and although she seemed to recover, it was like her digestion just went haywire and no matter what I fed her, it went straight through. She had total liquid diarrhea for a solid month. She was skin and bones, nobody (including a specialist) could figure out why it was happening. I was getting ready to sign the paperwork for my vet to come to my house to put her down. I asked him if there was anything else we could try, any other food (I was cooking a low fat bland diet which he was totally fine with) and he suggested the w/d, not sure if it would work. It did, almost immediately, and here we are 5 months later. I really, really hate to think that I could have prematurely ended my dog's life had I refused to use a "crappy" food. She is happy to eat it, she seems to feel amazing and her coat/skin look fine. I'm so thankful that now I have extra time with her. She has a lot of health problems in addition to the pancreatitis so I'm happy that right now we have everything balanced and she's doing as well as she is.

At some point, it is not about how the ingredient list reads, it is only about how the food functions in the dog's body. From my understanding, the w/d is able to slow my dog's digestion enough that her body is actually able to properly digest it. I also understand that there is nothing commercially available that comes close the the w/d. And no, adding fiber through extra veggies or even Metamucil to my dog's home cooked meals did not work at all. I'm on an email group for owners of dogs with pancreatitis, and recently there was a post about how sometimes you have to consider the food as a medication, and that totally makes sense to me.


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## bett

flashyfawn said:


> So what if you (generic "you", not directed at anyone in particular) had a very arthritic dog who could not tolerate NSAIDs, and for whom joint supplements no longer worked? Do you try the j/d or just let your dog hobble around?
> 
> Sometimes you really do have to suck it up and do what your dog needs, even if it isn't what you want your dog to need. As I've explained before, I always said I would never feed Hills but I have a dog who is thriving on w/d. She had a pretty serious case of pancreatitis and although she seemed to recover, it was like her digestion just went haywire and no matter what I fed her, it went straight through. She had total liquid diarrhea for a solid month. She was skin and bones, nobody (including a specialist) could figure out why it was happening. I was getting ready to sign the paperwork for my vet to come to my house to put her down. I asked him if there was anything else we could try, any other food (I was cooking a low fat bland diet which he was totally fine with) and he suggested the w/d, not sure if it would work. It did, almost immediately, and here we are 5 months later. I really, really hate to think that I could have prematurely ended my dog's life had I refused to use a "crappy" food. She is happy to eat it, she seems to feel amazing and her coat/skin look fine. I'm so thankful that now I have extra time with her. She has a lot of health problems in addition to the pancreatitis so I'm happy that right now we have everything balanced and she's doing as well as she is.
> 
> At some point, it is not about how the ingredient list reads, it is only about how the food functions in the dog's body. From my understanding, the w/d is able to slow my dog's digestion enough that her body is actually able to properly digest it. I also understand that there is nothing commercially available that comes close the the w/d. And no, adding fiber through extra veggies or even Metamucil to my dog's home cooked meals did not work at all. I'm on an email group for owners of dogs with pancreatitis, and recently there was a post about how sometimes you have to consider the food as a medication, and that totally makes sense to me.


i would suck it up "in the meantime", meaning, yes i'd feed that food, while i investigate other things more like green lipped mussel, traumeel, acupuncture. i have a liver impaired dog, who was so poorly bred. the only labby thing is his beautiful head. he's too long , he has straight hocks and luxating patellas, his neck is screwed up. and he can't take any of those drugs for arthritis as his liver is that fragile. he gets chinese herbs for his liver, and his structural difficulties. i live in a split level so he walks the steps all day. at one point they thought he had a spinal stroke but it was an issue with a disc in his neck.

everyone has to do what they are comfortable with. i am retired so i have all the time in the world to research and research and try other things. it took me months to finally get to a liver support diet, proper supplements and herbs, and now his liver levels are normal (a fluke every now and then but nothing like before. (this was from toxic diamond food). the internist who couldn't do the needle guided biopsy is in awe. she told us 19 months ago "your boy has a cirrhotic liver, i believe, (ultrasound) and his blood isn't coagulating. go home and enjoy him".
19 months ago.

all that being said, everyone has to make decisions for their own animals and hopefully base it on something other than selfish "i hate that food". 
been there, done that and so far, we are successfully treating rex's many ailments. 
right now, i have 6 lbs of prime, un-enhanced ground chicken(nick is a butcher in a prime shop, thank god), 2 bs of organic sweet potatoes cooking, and 6 lbs of organic broccoli, green beens and spinach, being cooked to death. that will last about 8 days and next week will probably be cod, as the protein.
fun, it's not but…..keeps his numbers where they need to be.
hopefully, rex will be 12 in feb tho he now has a lob that has consolidated for reasons unknown to all of us. and since we're not operating to remove it, it stays and he wretches a few times a day. 

so yes, sometimes you must consider the food as the medication, whether it comes raw, home cooked or canned or bagged.


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## Shamrockmommy

flashyfawn said:


> So what if you (generic "you", not directed at anyone in particular) had a very arthritic dog who could not tolerate NSAIDs, and for whom joint supplements no longer worked? Do you try the j/d or just let your dog hobble around?
> 
> .


This right here hits home for me. My Darby has HD, and is on Adequan and Metacam. Both of which are sending her ALT (liver enzymes) high. ALthough, they've been stable for the last 4 years now ranging from 225-228. 
My vet thinks I should try the j/d. I'm convinced she'll be a giant ball of yeast. I don't know. I guess I'd have to suck it up and try it. 
Still don't think, though, with the severity of her HD, that she'd be able to stop the drugs at all.


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## Dr Dolittle

Shamrockmommy said:


> This right here hits home for me. My Darby has HD, and is on Adequan and Metacam. Both of which are sending her ALT (liver enzymes) high. ALthough, they've been stable for the last 4 years now ranging from 225-228.
> My vet thinks I should try the j/d. I'm convinced she'll be a giant ball of yeast. I don't know. I guess I'd have to suck it up and try it.
> Still don't think, though, with the severity of her HD, that she'd be able to stop the drugs at all.


You have absolutely nothing to lose. If you don't see any results in 30 to 45 days, the j/d isn't going to work. It would really help the blood values and liver numbers if we could reduce some of the mess, which is very common with j/d. JUST do it, lol!


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## Dr Dolittle

flashyfawn said:


> So what if you (generic "you", not directed at anyone in particular) had a very arthritic dog who could not tolerate NSAIDs, and for whom joint supplements no longer worked? Do you try the j/d or just let your dog hobble around?
> 
> Sometimes you really do have to suck it up and do what your dog needs, even if it isn't what you want your dog to need. As I've explained before, I always said I would never feed Hills but I have a dog who is thriving on w/d. She had a pretty serious case of pancreatitis and although she seemed to recover, it was like her digestion just went haywire and no matter what I fed her, it went straight through. She had total liquid diarrhea for a solid month. She was skin and bones, nobody (including a specialist) could figure out why it was happening. I was getting ready to sign the paperwork for my vet to come to my house to put her down. I asked him if there was anything else we could try, any other food (I was cooking a low fat bland diet which he was totally fine with) and he suggested the w/d, not sure if it would work. It did, almost immediately, and here we are 5 months later. I really, really hate to think that I could have prematurely ended my dog's life had I refused to use a "crappy" food. She is happy to eat it, she seems to feel amazing and her coat/skin look fine. I'm so thankful that now I have extra time with her. She has a lot of health problems in addition to the pancreatitis so I'm happy that right now we have everything balanced and she's doing as well as she is.
> 
> At some point, it is not about how the ingredient list reads, it is only about how the food functions in the dog's body. From my understanding, the w/d is able to slow my dog's digestion enough that her body is actually able to properly digest it. I also understand that there is nothing commercially available that comes close the the w/d. And no, adding fiber through extra veggies or even Metamucil to my dog's home cooked meals did not work at all. I'm on an email group for owners of dogs with pancreatitis, and recently there was a post about how sometimes you have to consider the food as a medication, and that totally makes sense to me.


Flashyfawn, That was really a great post. As someone who has total faith in those vet diets it's nice to read from someone else! when I talked with nutritionists that formulate these diets they are very insulated from the sales and marketing and sometimes I think they could be sensitive to the ingredient games of food companies and maybe adjust some ingredients to at least look better! but these people are amazing and talk and live in a whole different mind set? sadly, there is a trend now of animals suffering and being put down because the vet's food looked like crap! of course it does compared to fresh meat, blu berries, etc and the focus on ingredients these days. As you said, we all have our bias and we like believing our opinion is the right one, but if your pet becomes ill, you don't have the same luxuries of opinion like when your pet is healthy. A rule of thumb is, if your pet has a disease like renal, heart, urinary stones, etc, anything you feed them that is not designed specifically for that disease, is actually harming them every time you feed them! And that is the truth! You can feed your dog with kidney disease an expensive bag of food that attracts your interest and/or emotion all you want, but it's still hearing your pet! So you're right. Suck it up and feed what the animal needs. Most vet diets will reveal how well they will work pretty quickly. If it doesn't work, try something else. If I had an ill dog! I would hope I'd be open to try almost anything if it had some research and precedent behind it? And w/d isn't even a diet as impressive as some of the others but vets do call it Wonder Diet because it works so well on so many issues. Glad it worked for your little one!


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## flashyfawn

Dr Dolittle said:


> but if your pet becomes ill, you don't have the same luxuries of opinion like when your pet is healthy.


Yes, this is what did it for me. My younger dog can eat anything with no problems. It becomes a totally different ballgame with a sick dog, especially in my situation where we didn't even really know what the problem was. We had no idea what to try OR avoid. My vet said the same thing about the w/d working for a variety of issues. She will be on it for the rest of her life, no question. 

One reason I feel like I have to comment on these kinds of topics now is that there seems to be an assumption, or thought, that anyone who feeds these diets is either blindly following their (money hungry) vet's advice, or unwilling/too lazy/whatever to find a prettier alternative. I was 100% fine with cooking for my dog, I don't have unlimited time or money but I gladly give all that I have to my dogs. My vet was also 100% fine with me cooking for her. I'm not trying to be defensive or anything, because I am totally satisfied in what I'm choosing to do for my dog, but I just think it's important to show the alternative view, not the one that is popular on this forum. And I promise my vet did not suggest the w/d to get more money out of me. Many of you would probably fall out of your chairs if I wrote out all the things we no longer test for with my dog, all at the vet's suggestion. She is on some really serious pain meds that she cannot come off of, and I cannot change her food. So now other things don't matter because we cannot treat for them anyway and we've chosen to only treat the dog, not the test results. Not all vets are only in it to see how much they can pad the bill. I feel for those who don't have a vet they can trust, that must be really frustrating.

Bett, I remember reading Rex's story over on the Lab board. If my dog had become that ill from dog food that I thought was good, I'd fight hard for home cooking also. I get that, totally. Unfortunately some dogs seems to be health train-wrecks. My dog is no particular breed and as far as I can tell based on how she's built, she was most likely simply put together from spare parts. Fantastic dog, though. I'd take her personality 1,000 times over but I doubt I'll ever get so lucky again. I wish Rex many more happy, healthy years. 

Shamrock, I don't know if the j/d would cause yeasty issues, but my dog has a tendency towards hot spots and since she's been on the w/d she hasn't had any. I know it's a different issue (yeasty ears/feet have never been her problem) but her skin really looks good. Have you ever looked into Duralactin (or microlactin for people, which I think is the same thing)? My younger dog was just diagnosed with arthritis in both elbows, and we already knew she had it in both knees and hocks (apparently both of my dogs took a dip in the wrong end of the gene pool on that issue) so we started her on Previcox. She tolerates it fine but I started microlactin and I've just cut her back to a half dose of Previcox. We walk about 60-90 minutes a day, most of that with her running off leash, and so far she's fine. My older lady dog did well on tramadol for a little while, although for the past year we've actually had to resort to oxycodone, so needless to say none of the other stuff works for her anymore. Tramadol isn't an NSAID though, so it won't get that inflammation out of the joint. But maybe you can find some combination that will allow you to reduce the metacam. Good luck, I know it is hard watching them struggle.


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## Shamrockmommy

I can't remember why I was avoiding Duralactin. I think it might have brewer's yeast in it (makes her yeasty) but I'd have to look again to be sure.

Would I continue the salmon oil/glucosamine (synflex) supplement she's currently on if I switch her to j/d?


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## bett

Shamrockmommy said:


> This right here hits home for me. My Darby has HD, and is on Adequan and Metacam. Both of which are sending her ALT (liver enzymes) high. ALthough, they've been stable for the last 4 years now ranging from 225-228.
> My vet thinks I should try the j/d. I'm convinced she'll be a giant ball of yeast. I don't know. I guess I'd have to suck it up and try it.
> Still don't think, though, with the severity of her HD, that she'd be able to stop the drugs at all.


have you tried traumeel for the pain, and sam-e and milk thistle for the high liver levels? i also use chinese herbs which have been totally miraculous. also, green lipped mussel from hare today , actually has proven studies (more so than glucosamine and chondroitin, believe it or not)?


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## Shamrockmommy

She gets traumeel from time to time and milk thistle as well. I can look into sam-e and mussel too.


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## flashyfawn

I think you have to just try different things and see what works for your dog. Traumeel didn't do anything for either of mine, and wasn't terribly impressed with the green lipped mussel either. I don't see brewers yeast on my bottle of microlactin, there may be something different in the Duralactin for dogs, I don't remember. But I did read reviews of it and some people said it seemed to cause allergy/itchy type issues in some dogs after they had been on it for a while.


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## Shamrockmommy

I really made a point to watch Darby today. She's been more cuddly in the last week since I put her on fromm and the honest kitchen again. She also is on salmon oil, synflex, DGP and adequan every three weeks. If I notce her acting stiff then she gets metacam (2-3 times a week). 

She is also galloping around in the snow today. I can see she uses the left more than right but she doesn't hold her leg up nor does she limp during a walk or trot. She's doing really well as I see it and dh thought so too when I asked him. She's better than the times where she would hardly walk. 

So I guess something's working for her there. 

For those who say their dog didn't tolerate metacam orNSAIDs, what made you believe they weren't tolerated?


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## dogg

In my experience, feeding a food that has better ingredients and giving a supplement for the joints seems to do well. 
I would prefer feeding ingredients like:
Chicken meal, brown rice, white rice, rice bran, peas, potatoes, oatmeal, cracked pearled barley, millet, turkey meal, lamb meal, chicken fat (preserved with mixed tocopherols), tomato pomace, natural flavor, flaxseed meal, ocean fish meal.

Rather then:
Whole Grain Corn, Chicken By-Product Meal, Flaxseed, Soybean Mill Run, Brewers Rice, Soybean Meal, Pork Fat (preserved with mixed tocopherols and citric acid), Chicken Liver Flavor, Powdered Cellulose, Fish Oil

I do not see anything that can help in the second food. As far as ingredients quality I guess the second must be far better because the price on line is $81.29 for 27.5#, the food that looks like better ingredients is $45.99 for 30# at the same online store. 

I would not feed a high protein, high fat food to a pet that is older or shows signs of joint pain. I would use a good food along with a good supplement like Liquid Health which has what the joints need.
Glucosamine Hcl 1600 mg
Chondroitin Sulfate 1200 mg
MSM 1000 mg
Manganese Chelate 7 mg
Hyaluronic Acid 10 mg 

This is just an example of what I use and it works very well.


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## Candyd

This British product actually has even more omega-3 fatty acids (DHA and EPA) than j/d. It contains added glucosamine and chondroitin too (but I don't know how much). My old dog eats this brand (with canned food) and he digests it extremely well. It's available everywhere in Europe since a few months.

*Simpsons Premium 80/20 Fish*

*Composition:*

Deboned Salmon (21%), Dried Herring (21%), Deboned White Fish (17%), Potato, Sweet Potato, Salmon Oil (7.5%), Dried Salmon (6%), Dried White Fish (6%), Lucerne, Salmon Stock (1.5%), Pea Fibre, Minerals, Vitamins, Dried Apple, Dried Carrot, Spinach, Dried Seaweed, Dried Cranberry, Glucosamine, MSM, Chondroitin, Aniseed, Fenugreek, Thyme, Marjoram, Oregano, Parsley, Sage, Prebiotic FOS.


*Analytical Constituents:*

Protein : 38% Oil : 18% Fibre: 2% Ash : 10.5% Calcium : 1.90% Phosphorous : 1.24% Omega 6 : 1.89% Omega 3 : 3.34%


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## Shamrockmommy

Orijen Six fish has nearly equal amounts of omega 3 and 6. J/D only lists omega 3 amounts but not 6, so I have no idea what the ratio is there for comparison.
Not sure I want to try Orijen again. It results in cannon butt for most of my dogs. Acana Pacifica is similar and they've been know to do decently on that.


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## Dr Dolittle

Shamrockmommy said:


> Orijen Six fish has nearly equal amounts of omega 3 and 6. J/D only lists omega 3 amounts but not 6, so I have no idea what the ratio is there for comparison.
> Not sure I want to try Orijen again. It results in cannon butt for most of my dogs. Acana Pacifica is similar and they've been know to do decently on that.


I have found it is extremely difficult to dig that deep into food formulas. that is interesting to find a food with equal 3s and 6s. I don't think I have ever seen that? I know the ratio in JD is .7 to 1, delivering more 3’s than 6's. I have been learning some interesting facts about flax seed. It is a great fiber source for GI health and provides high Omega 6’s and though fish oil is much higher in EPA/DHA for inflammation, 20% of the fatty acids in flax seed convert to EPA in the dogs body. So you can use more flax seed for the other benefits and still get inflammatory benefits if you use enough. Actually found a food with flax seed that had more EPA than a food with fish oil! Again, the actual art and science of nutrition really is hard to dicipher thru all the individual ingredient claims.


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## Dr Dolittle

dogg said:


> In my experience, feeding a food that has better ingredients and giving a supplement for the joints seems to do well.
> I would prefer feeding ingredients like:
> Chicken meal, brown rice, white rice, rice bran, peas, potatoes, oatmeal, cracked pearled barley, millet, turkey meal, lamb meal, chicken fat (preserved with mixed tocopherols), tomato pomace, natural flavor, flaxseed meal, ocean fish meal.
> 
> Rather then:
> Whole Grain Corn, Chicken By-Product Meal, Flaxseed, Soybean Mill Run, Brewers Rice, Soybean Meal, Pork Fat (preserved with mixed tocopherols and citric acid), Chicken Liver Flavor, Powdered Cellulose, Fish Oil
> 
> I do not see anything that can help in the second food. As far as ingredients quality I guess the second must be far better because the price on line is $81.29 for 27.5#, the food that looks like better ingredients is $45.99 for 30# at the same online store.
> 
> I would not feed a high protein, high fat food to a pet that is older or shows signs of joint pain. I would use a good food along with a good supplement like Liquid Health which has what the joints need.
> Glucosamine Hcl 1600 mg
> Chondroitin Sulfate 1200 mg
> MSM 1000 mg
> Manganese Chelate 7 mg
> Hyaluronic Acid 10 mg
> 
> This is just an example of what I use and it works very well.


Dogg, You prove my point of why ingredient marketing works so well. Why all those glamorous sources of protein? Are they all really that different in amino acids? And look how they split up all that rice into different names. ANY real nutritionist can tell you corn is a better carbohydrate, amino acid provider, and fatty acid provider than rice, 5 times more fatty acids! They both use flax which is great but one uses fish oil as well, really good for arthritic dogs. they both use the same flavor enhancer called natural flavor in one and chicken liver flavor in the other. As long as food companies can keep you just looking at attractive ingredients and not the nutrients the food delivers, you'll continue to shop and buy the way they want. Again, all companies are doing this now so it is even more difficult to dig and see which foods are good and which ones are junk. And I should add! some dogs will do well as far as we can tell on a food that could end up being very bad for them over time? But thanks for providing the comparison of ingredients!


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## dogg

Dr Dolittle said:


> Dogg, You prove my point of why ingredient marketing works so well. Why all those glamorous sources of protein? Are they all really that different in amino acids? And look how they split up all that rice into different names. ANY real nutritionist can tell you corn is a better carbohydrate, amino acid provider, and fatty acid provider than rice, 5 times more fatty acids! They both use flax which is great but one uses fish oil as well, really good for arthritic dogs. they both use the same flavor enhancer called natural flavor in one and chicken liver flavor in the other. As long as food companies can keep you just looking at attractive ingredients and not the nutrients the food delivers, you'll continue to shop and buy the way they want. Again, all companies are doing this now so it is even more difficult to dig and see which foods are good and which ones are junk. *And I should add! some dogs will do well as far as we can tell on a food that could end up being very bad for them over time?* But thanks for providing the comparison of ingredients!


I must be reading this wrong, How can a food be good but over time very bad, to me that means a bad food to start with... If all we have is to go by the ingredients that are list along with analysis then that is what we have to go by. If you have proof of research that says JD by itself is all that is needed then I can understand paying that price for the food. Everything I have read on this post along with other forums the person also supplements with some type of medication. If you have to supplement JD with something to help movement then why not feed a better ingredient looking food and use a good supplement.


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## Shamrockmommy

Darby gets Fromm plus the honest kitchen, and the second ingredient in thk is flax, so I wonder if that has something to do with her recent bouncy happy snugglyness.


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## Dr Dolittle

dogg said:


> I must be reading this wrong, How can a food be good but over time very bad, to me that means a bad food to start with... If all we have is to go by the ingredients that are list along with analysis then that is what we have to go by. If you have proof of research that says JD by itself is all that is needed then I can understand paying that price for the food. Everything I have read on this post along with other forums the person also supplements with some type of medication. If you have to supplement JD with something to help movement then why not feed a better ingredient looking food and use a good supplement.


Sorry, what I mean is you can be on a food that performs well as far as coat and skin, stool quality, etc but it could be a very unbalanced food that can harm your pet long term. I know there is a study that says you can reduce NSAIDS by 25% on j/d but I can only tell you from lots of experience that many many dogs come off everything on jd. And I really mean MANY! The proof is how well it works! If after 30 to 45 days you are not really happy with the results, than I would switch and use other appraoaches. $69.99 for a 27.5 LB bag doesn't seem much higher than lots of foods out there. I am no expert on supplements but I know it is a real guessing game since there is so little regulation. Again, arthritis treatments are one of those things we can observe if they are working. And most vets would tell you to take a multi model approach. Mine would be j/d and Dasaquin, but theres lots of options out there.


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## Dr Dolittle

Shamrockmommy said:


> Darby gets Fromm plus the honest kitchen, and the second ingredient in thk is flax, so I wonder if that has something to do with her recent bouncy happy snugglyness.


2nd ingredient? Wow, that alot of flax seed! Maybe! Sure can't hurt. Again, theres an example where you wish you could just get the actual EPA/DHA in the food.


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## dogg

Where can you get the price of $69.99? Everything I found was in the $80 price range when shipping was figured. At the vet by me that goes for over $85.


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## Dr Dolittle

dogg said:


> Where can you get the price of $69.99? Everything I found was in the $80 price range when shipping was figured. At the vet by me that goes for over $85.


Dogg, Sorry about that! The company's suggested retail is $76.99. I was looking at a different vet diet. Obviously vets can sell it at any price they want. maybe that's including tax. Lately there are some companies offering free shipping but I don't have much knowledge on those. At that price it's less than $2.00 a day for a 60 LB dog. If the diet worked and you didn't need additional pain mess that's a pretty good deal. We sometimes don't realize what we pay for the additional stuff.


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## InkedMarie

Shamrockmommy said:


> Darby gets Fromm plus the honest kitchen, and the second ingredient in thk is flax, so I wonder if that has something to do with her recent bouncy happy snugglyness.


Which THK are you feeding?


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## Shamrockmommy

InkedMarie said:


> Which THK are you feeding?


Embark. Ingredients:Turkey, organic flaxseed, potatoes, celery, spinach, carrots, organic coconut, apples, organic kelp, eggs, bananas, cranberries, rosemary extract*, tricalcium phosphate, choline chloride, zinc amino acid chelate, vitamin D3 supplement, vitamin E supplement, potassium iodide, potassium chloride, iron amino acid chelate, copper amino acid chelate. - See more at: Embark - Grain Free, High Protein Dog Food | The Honest Kitchen

It's pretty crazy, that's a LOT of flax. More than the potatoes and everything else! I "love" the idea of THK but I also think that it's making the dogs itchy. 
Once my boxes (I have a box of Love also) are gone I'm not sure I'll feed it again. I do this every now and again, keep trying it out with mixed results just because I love the idea and the company So much


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## stbernardlover

I came across this thread and wanted to add my experience with J/D food. My golden retriever was diagnosed with immune-mediated arthritis at only the age of four. She has been on prednisone and tramadol since then, and now is about to turn 10. About 6 months ago, my vet recommended me to try this prescription diet to see if it improved her mobility at all. Let me add that about 6 months before trying this food, she slept most of the day, never went upstairs, struggled to get up and was overall not a happy dog. From age 4-8 her mobility was decent, but entering her senior years it got absolutely terrible. Within about 38 days, I couldn't believe my eyes- she now runs around my house (still with a slight disability, of course), tail-wagging full speed and is always very excited about going on walks and her surroundings in general. Overall a much, MUCH happier dog. In my opinion, Dr. Dolittle has a wonderful point about most of us overlooking nutrients/scientific research and focusing more on an attractive list of ingredients. I admit that before trying the Hill's J/D diet, I was guilty of this. I became obsessive over what my dogs were eating, solely based on the ingredients list and ignoring the fact of whether the company did research, hired nutritionists, etc. Being a pre-vet/animal science major, companion animal nutrition is something that has greatly interested me. Therefore, I strive to learn as much as possible and love hearing what everyone has to say. Anyways, I know that most will not agree with my choice of feeding this food, however it is impossible to regret my decision seeing how happy my golden now is at such a ripe age with a terrible disease.


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## Shamrockmommy

One of the major things keeping me from even trying out j/d is that it has corn in it. I'm allergic to corn (it's in everything, it's a total pain in the…). I was around some poodles that eat Purina (corn!) who licked me after eating and I got hives. My own dogs who do not eat corn anything can lick me and I'm fine.
SO, I'm not sure I even want something corny in the house. 
I had chickens whose feed contained corn, naturally. I had to rehome the hens because i'd be covered in hives just feeding them.


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## dogg

I am glad to hear that the J/D was able to get you pet off the prednisone and tramadol, we all know how bad that is. I have seen supplements that have done wonders so I thought I would pass that along. I have not seen or read any proof that changing the levels of omegas in a food will help lessen arthritis pain. I am glad to see that J/D has been able to state that claim.


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## Dr Dolittle

stbernardlover said:


> I came across this thread and wanted to add my experience with J/D food. My golden retriever was diagnosed with immune-mediated arthritis at only the age of four. She has been on prednisone and tramadol since then, and now is about to turn 10. About 6 months ago, my vet recommended me to try this prescription diet to see if it improved her mobility at all. Let me add that about 6 months before trying this food, she slept most of the day, never went upstairs, struggled to get up and was overall not a happy dog. From age 4-8 her mobility was decent, but entering her senior years it got absolutely terrible. Within about 38 days, I couldn't believe my eyes- she now runs around my house (still with a slight disability, of course), tail-wagging full speed and is always very excited about going on walks and her surroundings in general. Overall a much, MUCH happier dog. In my opinion, Dr. Dolittle has a wonderful point about most of us overlooking nutrients/scientific research and focusing more on an attractive list of ingredients. I admit that before trying the Hill's J/D diet, I was guilty of this. I became obsessive over what my dogs were eating, solely based on the ingredients list and ignoring the fact of whether the company did research, hired nutritionists, etc. Being a pre-vet/animal science major, companion animal nutrition is something that has greatly interested me. Therefore, I strive to learn as much as possible and love hearing what everyone has to say. Anyways, I know that most will not agree with my choice of feeding this food, however it is impossible to regret my decision seeing how happy my golden now is at such a ripe age with a terrible disease.


thanks for making my day! I never get tired of hearing stories like that! It's worth all the beating up I get! LOL!


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## Penny & Maggie's Mom

I couldn't have imagined feeding JD until last Feb. For years our AI springer was on Fromm 4 star duck, omega 3 supplementation of 300 mg of EPA/DHA per 10 lbs of body weight (a therapeutic dose from several rehab vets), Cosequin or the Annamaet Endure. However, he still had occasional back pain necessitating opiates and combos of other pain meds. Last Feb, he was in such pain that without being sedated to the point of being unconscious that his quality of life was almost nil. Sedated xrays revealed not only back issues but bilateral severe hip dysplasia and severe arthritis. All this in a dog that is 9 years old, and an AIHA survivor. As a last ditch effort, the orthopedic surgeon suggested JD. I've never been so surprised in my life when 4 weeks later he was running with his golden sisters and taking only 25 mg of Rimadyl every day or two. We've recently moved and have over an acre of wonderful lawn and to see him run the length of it multiple times/day brings tears to my eyes. My boy has been given quality time. For that I am immensely grateful. I never would have believed this if it wasn't our story.


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## Dr Dolittle

that is so awesome. hopefully someone will read this and see the same results with their beloved pet! It's just one of those things that makes life a little more special!


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