# Heartworm alternatives



## RiverRun (Jun 29, 2011)

Alright all you knowledgeable people! I have a good friend that has rescued two dogs from a bad owner and they have turned out to be heartworm positive. She wants to go the alternate route when it comes to treatment(I don't blame her). She has done a bit of research and Im not sure what exactly she is trying right now, but what are some suggested alternatives to treating heartworms? We are in the south so mosquitoes are prevalent here, and I wouldn't mind storing some information away just in case something happens with my girls.


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## SaharaNight Boxers (Jun 28, 2011)

This is the best one I found. 

Bandit's Buddies Heartworm Program


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## Felix (Oct 9, 2012)

My sister is a vet tech in the south where there have been a lot of heart worm problems. She said what they do in her clinic for heart worm positive dogs, is give the animal heart guard or some other heart worm preventative for a year and it slowly kills the heart worms without killing the dog. It's a slower way of getting rid of it, but still produces the same results.


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## monster'sdad (Jul 29, 2012)

There are none. Listen to a licensed, experienced Dr. Let that person handle it.

As far as prevention, the cost of Heartguard is largely to blame for people not using ivermectin. I switched years ago to liquid ivermectin and paste. You don't have to buy paste in large quantities so for a person with one or two larger dogs it makes sense, assuming the dog is not a breed that is sensitive to ivermectin.


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## RiverRun (Jun 29, 2011)

Thank you monster'sdad for your input, but I believe I requested the opinions of the knowledgeable people that have done some research for alternatives. Licensed, experienced Drs have also told me I am killing my dogs because I feed them raw............I am pretty sure I do not want someone THAT unintelligent injecting poison into my dog's body. I worked at vets for over 5 years, I know what happens behind closed doors. 

Sahara, that link is very interesting! I will tuck that away and look into it more! 

Felix, I have also heard of vets giving heartguard for extended periods of time to treat heartworms. Although all the vets I worked for would scoff at that option because they are so closed minded, I could see it being a better alternative than the doses of poison a dog is injected with as the normal method. 

Anything that requires a dog keeping absolutely calm for more than a day for fear that the heart may pump the poison through too quickly and kill the animal is NOT a way I want to treat my dogs. I have never understood how people could risk that.


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## monster'sdad (Jul 29, 2012)

RiverRun said:


> Thank you monster'sdad for your input, but I believe I requested the opinions of the knowledgeable people that have done some research for alternatives. Licensed, experienced Drs have also told me I am killing my dogs because I feed them raw............I am pretty sure I do not want someone THAT unintelligent injecting poison into my dog's body. I worked at vets for over 5 years, I know what happens behind closed doors.
> 
> Sahara, that link is very interesting! I will tuck that away and look into it more!
> 
> ...


You can romance all you want about berries, herbs and light therapy, but heartworms are serious business. Treatments are much better than they were years ago when arsenic-based drugs were used.

Low-dose ivermectin is one way to go but it all depends. That approach is also an off-label use.

One person just "prescribed" kelp for a possible thyroid condition she knows nothing about for a dog she will never even see. It is easy to give medical advice for someone else's pet.

Talk to a Dr., most will use Immiticide. Some dogs may also need surgery.


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## RiverRun (Jun 29, 2011)

once again; Drs are the ones that stalked straight up to my face and in his exact words, "I went home and read one article about feeding raw meat; just wanted to let you know you are killing your dogs".....not long after that he told me to find a new job because I obviously did not believe in what he was doing at the clinic, when I refused he fired me. When a dog is injected for heartworm treatment, it is customary to keep them kenneled for at least 24 hours, NO exercise, leash walked; for fear that the dog's excitement will cause the dog's heart to pump the blood through the dog's veins too quickly and rush the poison injected into the dog's rump in two separate doses, to the dog's heart and KILL the animal. Now if an alternative treatment is not working, it is just as easy to keep a dog healthy by a good diet and lack of vaccines so that the animal's immune system can TOLERATE the worms and not be affected by them. We have to remember that these are ANIMALS, not humans. What do you believe wolves do in the wild if they were to contract heartworms? Do you believe that they would run to the closest town to get injected with poison? I think not. They thrive on a healthy diet of meat, so their systems are strong enough to handle internal worms and parasites. 
I have to ask, why are you even posting in this section? If I had wanted opinions on common methods, do you think I would have posted here?


Edited to add: I have an Australian shepherd, you do know that it can be very dangerous to give those breeds ivermectin right?


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## monster'sdad (Jul 29, 2012)

RiverRun said:


> once again; Drs are the ones that stalked straight up to my face and in his exact words, "I went home and read one article about feeding raw meat; just wanted to let you know you are killing your dogs".....not long after that he told me to find a new job because I obviously did not believe in what he was doing at the clinic, when I refused he fired me. When a dog is injected for heartworm treatment, it is customary to keep them kenneled for at least 24 hours, NO exercise, leash walked; for fear that the dog's excitement will cause the dog's heart to pump the blood through the dog's veins too quickly and rush the poison injected into the dog's rump in two separate doses, to the dog's heart and KILL the animal. Now if an alternative treatment is not working, it is just as easy to keep a dog healthy by a good diet and lack of vaccines so that the animal's immune system can TOLERATE the worms and not be affected by them. We have to remember that these are ANIMALS, not humans. What do you believe wolves do in the wild if they were to contract heartworms? Do you believe that they would run to the closest town to get injected with poison? I think not. They thrive on a healthy diet of meat, so their systems are strong enough to handle internal worms and parasites.
> I have to ask, why are you even posting in this section? If I had wanted opinions on common methods, do you think I would have posted here?
> 
> 
> Edited to add: I have an Australian shepherd, you do know that it can be very dangerous to give those breeds ivermectin right?


If your dog is MDR-1 positive you have to be careful, yes I know. Ivermectin can still be given safely. Get the test done. 

Forget the wolf fantasy, wolves die too and generally pretty young.

Why am I posting here? Simple, the information and advice is ludicrous and people read it and take the advice.

No one should take your advice about heartworm prevention or treatment. It is completely crazy.


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## RiverRun (Jun 29, 2011)

Well then please leave this post. I do not want, nor did I ask for your advice. 


...I hope you realize that these vets you speak so highly of are wrong more often then not on their diagnosis. It was a vet that told me I should let him do an FHO on my dog, it was her 'only' way of living comfortably. Now 3 FHO surgeries later from said Dr, she is barely mobile and in pain, on top of throwing all of her weight into her front legs which is causing her elbows to go. It was also a vet that told me to spay my dog at 6 months old, it was the 'only' option to stop her urinary tract issues, now Im told it would have been much better to let her go through a heat first and her problem is common and usually cured after the heat cycle. It was also a vet that told me if I did not give my cat her meds when she contracted toxoplasmosis from 'her awful meat diet'(despite the fact that she killed and ate birds daily and was being fed nasty cat food from the neighbors right before she got sick) she would die....low and behold, I never gave her one pill and she was healthy as a horse after spending one week inside on 'bed rest'.....these were all different vets at different clinics, so forgive me if I do not trust your 'theory' that vets know best. 

Vets are great at what they are taught, but nothing beyond that. If pet owners were not open to alternatives, our pets would be dieing at early ages just as the wolves are. Why should I forget the wolf fantasy? Are you stating that dogs are not 99.9% biologically identical to wolves? Wolves die early, yes. Your point is? They also live in the wild and it is survival of the fittest, is it not? More often than not, wolves die due to injury, not heartworms. 

You Sir are ludicrous and no one should take your advice. Open your eyes, and do some research my dear friend. You cannot depend solely on what others say. If you never research for yourself, you will go nowhere in life. 


If you have nothing to contribute to this topic, I kindly ask that you but out. Your negative comments are not wanted here.


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## Chocx2 (Nov 16, 2009)

I know I'm late in posting but wolfcreekranch has something they say works, I haven't used it but they swear by it


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## RiverRun (Jun 29, 2011)

does anyone know what to watch out for? heard of anything that was recommended, but turned out dangerous?


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## DaViking (Sep 27, 2011)

RiverRun said:


> ...I hope you realize that these vets you speak so highly of are wrong more often then not on their diagnosis.


Bah. I hope you realize that millions of pet parents everywhere get invaluable help from vets every second of the day, 365 days a year. A handful loud internet complainers doesn't change that.


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## Liz (Sep 27, 2010)

You might want to check out the information on this site. Heartworm Cures


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## werecatrising (Oct 15, 2010)

The reason for keeping a dog quiet after heartworm treatment is not that the blood pushes the poisons through too quickly. Once the worms start to die off therecan be large clumps of them in the heart. Exercise increases the risk of one of these breaking off and causing the dog to throw a clot.


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## werecatrising (Oct 15, 2010)

RiverRun said:


> Well then please leave this post. I do not want, nor did I ask for your advice.
> 
> 
> ...I hope you realize that these vets you speak so highly of are wrong more often then not on their diagnosis. It was a vet that told me I should let him do an FHO on my dog, it was her 'only' way of living comfortably. Now 3 FHO surgeries later from said Dr, she is barely mobile and in pain, on top of throwing all of her weight into her front legs which is causing her elbows to go. It was also a vet that told me to spay my dog at 6 months old, it was the 'only' option to stop her urinary tract issues, now Im told it would have been much better to let her go through a heat first and her problem is common and usually cured after the heat cycle. It was also a vet that told me if I did not give my cat her meds when she contracted toxoplasmosis from 'her awful meat diet'(despite the fact that she killed and ate birds daily and was being fed nasty cat food from the neighbors right before she got sick) she would die....low and behold, I never gave her one pill and she was healthy as a horse after spending one week inside on 'bed rest'.....these were all different vets at different clinics, so forgive me if I do not trust your 'theory' that vets know best.
> ...


Do you mind my asking how your dog had 3 FHO surgeries? A femoral head osectomy is a procedure where you remove the femoral head. A dog only has 2 of them.


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## tem_sat (Jun 20, 2010)

Been there done that with Immiticide. I would never trust anything that has not been proven to work. Either way, you are dealing with a very deadly disease. I prefer to limit any future damage to my pet's heart and would avoid any long term methods. It all depends upon the severity of the disease. That needs to be assessed and then options presented.


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## RiverRun (Jun 29, 2011)

werecatrising said:


> The reason for keeping a dog quiet after heartworm treatment is not that the blood pushes the poisons through too quickly. Once the worms start to die off therecan be large clumps of them in the heart. Exercise increases the risk of one of these breaking off and causing the dog to throw a clot.


You are correct with this, but there is still the risk of the poison being pushed through the bloodstream too quickly.


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## RiverRun (Jun 29, 2011)

tem_sat said:


> Been there done that with Immiticide. I would never trust anything that has not been proven to work. Either way, you are dealing with a very deadly disease. I prefer to limit any future damage to my pet's heart and would avoid any long term methods. It all depends upon the severity of the disease. That needs to be assessed and then options presented.


What were your issues with the Immiticide? Did it not work at all, and/or cause more damage than good?


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## tem_sat (Jun 20, 2010)

RiverRun said:


> What were your issues with the Immiticide? Did it not work at all, and/or cause more damage than good?


For 8 weeks I was a basket case, however, my vet specializes in customized heartworm treament, so I knew there was no better place to be. He did a very slow initial test over a series of days to make sure my Doxie's liver could handle the full Immiticide dosage and we went on from there. It came out perfectly fine without any issues. I did indeed carry my Doxie everywhere. Even just walking from the living room to the kitchen was enough to make him gag heavily. So I was EXTREMELY careful and after it's all over, you have a totally happy energetic dog! Before the treatment, he was always out of breath, bloated, etc. It's like having a new dog.


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## monster'sdad (Jul 29, 2012)

tem_sat said:


> For 8 weeks I was a basket case, however, my vet specializes in customized heartworm treament, so I knew there was no better place to be. He did a very slow initial test over a series of days to make sure my Doxie's liver could handle the full Immiticide dosage and we went on from there. It came out perfectly fine without any issues. I did indeed carry my Doxie everywhere. Even just walking from the living room to the kitchen was enough to make him gag heavily. So I was EXTREMELY careful and after it's all over, you have a totally happy energetic dog! Before the treatment, he was always out of breath, bloated, etc. It's like having a new dog.


You cannot deal with heartworms any other way than with conventional medicine. And you must use a preventative, whether it is ivermectin or the other ones that are available. The least expensive and safest is ivermectin. If you have a MDR1 dog, get the test and stick with the 6 mcg/kg dosage.

If you have a large dog, or several for that matter, use can safely use 1% liquid or the apple flavored paste.


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## woganvonderweidenstrasse (Nov 22, 2012)

Here is a quote from the book "The Nature of animal healing" by Dr Martin Goldstein: "To judge by your local vet's stern insistence on regular heartworm pills for your dog, you'd think we're in the midst of a brutal epidemic, leaving piles of the dead in its wake. I think there's an epidemic, too, but of a different sort: of disease-causing toxicity instilled in our pets by heartworm preventative pills. Granted, heartworm is a serious condition. An infected mosquito bites your dog, injecting microscopic worms that first hibernate, then gain access to his bloodstream. The worms find their way to the heart, where they grow to as long as twelve inches, constricting the heart's passages and causing symptoms that range from coughing to labored breathing to heart failure. If the image of giant worms literally blocking the life blood of your dog isn't horrifying enough-and it can seem more so when viewing a real heart preserved in a jar of formalin, on display in a veterinarian's office as a sales tactic for heartworm preventative-the fact that they spawn hundreds of thousands of baby larvae, called "microfilaria," which circulate through the bloodstream, is nothing short of grotesque. A few caveats are in order, however. Only a small percentage of dogs who get heartworm die of it, especially if they're routinely tested twice yearly for early detection. Even in untreated dogs, after a period of uncomfortable symptoms, the adult worms die. The microfilaria do not grow into adult worms on their own. To reach the next stage in their life cycle, they have to be sucked back out of the body by another mosquito, and go through the other stages of their maturation process withih the mosquito. Only when that mosquito alights again on a dog and bites it can the microfilaria reenter the bloodstream with the ability to grow into adults. The chances of a microfilaria-infected mosquito biting your dog the first time are slim. Of it happening to the same dog twice? Very slim. And after two decades of pervasive administration of heartworm pills in the U.S., the chances of your dog contracting heartworm in most parts of this country even a first time are slimmer still. Early in my career, I saw and treated hundreds of cases of heartworm disease, most with routine medication, yet witnessed only three deaths. By comparison, we're seeing cancer kill dogs on a daily basis. To my mind, the likelihood that toxicity from the heartworm pills is contributing to the tremendous amount of immune suppression now occurring, especially in cases of liver disease and cancer, is far greater and more immediate than the threat of the disease they're meant to prevent. The most common form of hearworm prevention is a monthly pill taken just before and during mosquito season. It's toxins-ivermectin, for example-sweep through the body, killing any microfilaria that have been introduced by mosquito bites in the previous month, and thus preventing the growth of adult worms. Some brands also contain other toxins to kill intestinal parasites. The other approach to treatment is with daily dose of the drug diethylcarbamazine, starting several weeks before mosquito season. The drugs called for in either course if treatment are, simply put, poisons. Unfortunately, while they kill of microfilaria, they have the toxic effects of poisons, and can be especially damaging to the liver.I've saved a product evaluation for diethylcarbamazine mixed with oxibendazole, a preventative also used for hookworms. The evaluation, published by the company itself in a medical journal, reported that of 2.5 million dogs given the stuff, the company received only 176 reports of problems, including cases of liver toxictity and fatalities. To me, 176 is too many. But also, how may more went unreported? The evaluation concludes, "Of course, not all incidences are reported to the manufacturer, so the true magnitude of occurences is really unknown." The manufacturer would argue, no doubt, that many of the symptoms I've seen cannot be linked in any provable way to any of the heartworm preventatives. Perhaps-though the anecdotal evidence has long since persuaded me not to put dogs on the stuff. But I have seen one obvious, immediate effect of these once-a-month preventatives in case after case: when you give a dog that pill, over the next few days, whereever he urinates outside, his urine burns the grass. Permanently! In some cases, you can't grow grass there until you change the soil. What, I wonder, can it be doing internally to your dog in that time? When the first daily preventative came out, my brother and I witnessed evidence of hemorrhaging in the urine of several dogs put on them. We stopped the medication; the bleeding stopped. We started it up agin; the bleeding resumed. When we reported this to the manufacturere, we were informed that the company was aware of the problem from other complaints. Aware-but not about to pull its product from the shelves. All we could do was to stop giving the medication ourselves to the dogs we treated. Since then, the company has changed the product, diminishing this side effect and bringing it into the realm of acceptability for use in areas of high heartworm incidence. The dogs I treat from puppyhood receive no heartworm preventative pills. It may be said, of course, that I practice in an area where cases of heartworm are pretty infrequent. But while my clinic is in Westchester County, just north of New York City, my practice encompasses patients from around the country. In the last decade, 98 percent of my patients, on my recommendation, have not been given heartworm preventative. In that time, I've seen less than a handull of clinical cases. Two of them I treated herbally, starting with heart support supplements (a heart glandular, vitamin E, co-enzyme Q10) and regular doses of black walnut, an herb known to kill parasites. (It comes in a liquid extract form; I recommend putting a dropperful in the food or mouth at each meal.) The third I treated medically, with a new drug (Immiticide) reported to be a lot less toxic than intravenous arsenic, at a lower-than-recommended dosage. All three are clinically normal-no evidence of heartworm recurrence-years after treatment. As a precaution, I recommend that all dogs be tested twice a yearfor hearworm. For clients who insist on a more active form of prevention, I suggest doses of black walnut given tow to theree times a week, as I've actuallyreversed clinical heartworm with it. (For a thirty-pound dog, one capsule three times weekly during mosquito season in areas that have reported any incidence of heartworm.) We also use a homeopathic nosode. In areas where the chances of heartworm exposure appear greater than those in my own - like southern Florida and the Bahamas, where the chances of contracting it are high- I recommend adding to this regimen the conventional daily heartworm pill, given three times weekly. Veterinarians trained in homeopathy can get your pet on a good nosode prgeam for heartworm prevention.


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## monster'sdad (Jul 29, 2012)

Black Walnut is a folk remedy. There is no proof it is effective. Black Walnut is also toxic to dogs. Use at your own risk. Just because is Black Walnut is "natural" doesn't make it safe. Its toxicity to many mammals is well documented.

Also, ivermectin is a natural compound derived from fermentation. Toxicity is almost unheard of.

Vets normally dose ivermectin at 100 times the once a month dose in Heartguard daily for extended periods of time. Daily, not once a month.

If you want to play games with something that has a 100% infection rate be my guest.


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## RiverRun (Jun 29, 2011)

werecatrising said:


> Do you mind my asking how your dog had 3 FHO surgeries? A femoral head osectomy is a procedure where you remove the femoral head. A dog only has 2 of them.


 The Dr did not get the entire femoral head after her surgery on her second hip and had to go back in and redo it. So not only did she have an awful time recovering, it was a nightmare, she was in extreme pain until the last surgery and then was STILL in pain because she had a bone shard 'floating' around. Also, because we had such a hard time getting her to recover from the surgeries, we were unable to do the physical therapy until it was too late so she was unable to rebuild her muscle. She walks everyday with NO muscle on her backend. It's awful. ....thank you vet. 


Tem_sat, I am confused, I thought you said Immiticide did not work? Your last post states that it did? 


Monster'sdad, I do hope you realize that you sound like a vet trying desperately to sell their product. Most vets will give you some horror story about anything from shots to food JUST to get you to buy their products. I have worked for 5 different vet clinics and they were all focused on money only. One vet clinic had over 5 vets working there and I had heard them all at some point in time comment that they could care less if a dog died or not. 
I would like you to show me proof that alternatives do not work.


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## RiverRun (Jun 29, 2011)

woganvonderweidenstrasse said:


> Here is a quote from the book "The Nature of animal healing" by Dr Martin Goldstein: "To judge by your local vet's stern insistence on regular heartworm pills for your dog, you'd think we're in the midst of a brutal epidemic, leaving piles of the dead in its wake. I think there's an epidemic, too, but of a different sort: of disease-causing toxicity instilled in our pets by heartworm preventative pills. Granted, heartworm is a serious condition. An infected mosquito bites your dog, injecting microscopic worms that first hibernate, then gain access to his bloodstream. The worms find their way to the heart, where they grow to as long as twelve inches, constricting the heart's passages and causing symptoms that range from coughing to labored breathing to heart failure. If the image of giant worms literally blocking the life blood of your dog isn't horrifying enough-and it can seem more so when viewing a real heart preserved in a jar of formalin, on display in a veterinarian's office as a sales tactic for heartworm preventative-the fact that they spawn hundreds of thousands of baby larvae, called "microfilaria," which circulate through the bloodstream, is nothing short of grotesque. A few caveats are in order, however. Only a small percentage of dogs who get heartworm die of it, especially if they're routinely tested twice yearly for early detection. Even in untreated dogs, after a period of uncomfortable symptoms, the adult worms die. The microfilaria do not grow into adult worms on their own. To reach the next stage in their life cycle, they have to be sucked back out of the body by another mosquito, and go through the other stages of their maturation process withih the mosquito. Only when that mosquito alights again on a dog and bites it can the microfilaria reenter the bloodstream with the ability to grow into adults. The chances of a microfilaria-infected mosquito biting your dog the first time are slim. Of it happening to the same dog twice? Very slim. And after two decades of pervasive administration of heartworm pills in the U.S., the chances of your dog contracting heartworm in most parts of this country even a first time are slimmer still. Early in my career, I saw and treated hundreds of cases of heartworm disease, most with routine medication, yet witnessed only three deaths. By comparison, we're seeing cancer kill dogs on a daily basis. To my mind, the likelihood that toxicity from the heartworm pills is contributing to the tremendous amount of immune suppression now occurring, especially in cases of liver disease and cancer, is far greater and more immediate than the threat of the disease they're meant to prevent. The most common form of hearworm prevention is a monthly pill taken just before and during mosquito season. It's toxins-ivermectin, for example-sweep through the body, killing any microfilaria that have been introduced by mosquito bites in the previous month, and thus preventing the growth of adult worms. Some brands also contain other toxins to kill intestinal parasites. The other approach to treatment is with daily dose of the drug diethylcarbamazine, starting several weeks before mosquito season. The drugs called for in either course if treatment are, simply put, poisons. Unfortunately, while they kill of microfilaria, they have the toxic effects of poisons, and can be especially damaging to the liver.I've saved a product evaluation for diethylcarbamazine mixed with oxibendazole, a preventative also used for hookworms. The evaluation, published by the company itself in a medical journal, reported that of 2.5 million dogs given the stuff, the company received only 176 reports of problems, including cases of liver toxictity and fatalities. To me, 176 is too many. But also, how may more went unreported? The evaluation concludes, "Of course, not all incidences are reported to the manufacturer, so the true magnitude of occurences is really unknown." The manufacturer would argue, no doubt, that many of the symptoms I've seen cannot be linked in any provable way to any of the heartworm preventatives. Perhaps-though the anecdotal evidence has long since persuaded me not to put dogs on the stuff. But I have seen one obvious, immediate effect of these once-a-month preventatives in case after case: when you give a dog that pill, over the next few days, whereever he urinates outside, his urine burns the grass. Permanently! In some cases, you can't grow grass there until you change the soil. What, I wonder, can it be doing internally to your dog in that time? When the first daily preventative came out, my brother and I witnessed evidence of hemorrhaging in the urine of several dogs put on them. We stopped the medication; the bleeding stopped. We started it up agin; the bleeding resumed. When we reported this to the manufacturere, we were informed that the company was aware of the problem from other complaints. Aware-but not about to pull its product from the shelves. All we could do was to stop giving the medication ourselves to the dogs we treated. Since then, the company has changed the product, diminishing this side effect and bringing it into the realm of acceptability for use in areas of high heartworm incidence. The dogs I treat from puppyhood receive no heartworm preventative pills. It may be said, of course, that I practice in an area where cases of heartworm are pretty infrequent. But while my clinic is in Westchester County, just north of New York City, my practice encompasses patients from around the country. In the last decade, 98 percent of my patients, on my recommendation, have not been given heartworm preventative. In that time, I've seen less than a handull of clinical cases. Two of them I treated herbally, starting with heart support supplements (a heart glandular, vitamin E, co-enzyme Q10) and regular doses of black walnut, an herb known to kill parasites. (It comes in a liquid extract form; I recommend putting a dropperful in the food or mouth at each meal.) The third I treated medically, with a new drug (Immiticide) reported to be a lot less toxic than intravenous arsenic, at a lower-than-recommended dosage. All three are clinically normal-no evidence of heartworm recurrence-years after treatment. As a precaution, I recommend that all dogs be tested twice a yearfor hearworm. For clients who insist on a more active form of prevention, I suggest doses of black walnut given tow to theree times a week, as I've actuallyreversed clinical heartworm with it. (For a thirty-pound dog, one capsule three times weekly during mosquito season in areas that have reported any incidence of heartworm.) We also use a homeopathic nosode. In areas where the chances of heartworm exposure appear greater than those in my own - like southern Florida and the Bahamas, where the chances of contracting it are high- I recommend adding to this regimen the conventional daily heartworm pill, given three times weekly. Veterinarians trained in homeopathy can get your pet on a good nosode prgeam for heartworm prevention.


I LOVE his book! I have it all marked up and highlighted!


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## monster'sdad (Jul 29, 2012)

RiverRun said:


> The Dr did not get the entire femoral head after her surgery on her second hip and had to go back in and redo it. So not only did she have an awful time recovering, it was a nightmare, she was in extreme pain until the last surgery and then was STILL in pain because she had a bone shard 'floating' around. Also, because we had such a hard time getting her to recover from the surgeries, we were unable to do the physical therapy until it was too late so she was unable to rebuild her muscle. She walks everyday with NO muscle on her backend. It's awful. ....thank you vet.
> 
> 
> Tem_sat, I am confused, I thought you said Immiticide did not work? Your last post states that it did?
> ...


You are pushing pop science you provide the evidence. Alternatives are called Alternatives for a reason, they don't work. 

By the way, I can't prove a negative.


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## RiverRun (Jun 29, 2011)

monster'sdad said:


> You are pushing pop science you provide the evidence. Alternatives are called Alternatives for a reason, they don't work.
> 
> By the way, I can't prove a negative.



sooooo, are you going to tell that to the people that have successfully used an alternative? There is an alternative for everything. Ever wonder why people and animals are so unhealthy now? Also notice that more and more Drs and vets are beginning to realize their mistakes in pushing their traditional methods. Why else have they developed a 3 year rabies vaccine? I believe it is because vets are realizing they ARE in fact over-vaccinating, but they cannot stop it all together because they will lose money. 


I would be more than happy to provide you with evidence that what YOU are pushing, also has its risks. Nothing in life is 100% safe nor 100% effective. I also love how you state I am playing games with something that has a 100% infection rate........my dogs have not had heartworm preventative in years. I live in the south, with an overload of mosquitoes, .....no heartworms. Lucky? or my dog's immune systems are healthier because of their diet. If their systems are healthy enough, their natural immune defenses can actually kill off the larva. Ever wonder why you almost always see UNhealthy dogs with heartworms?


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## monster'sdad (Jul 29, 2012)

RiverRun said:


> sooooo, are you going to tell that to the people that have successfully used an alternative? There is an alternative for everything. Ever wonder why people and animals are so unhealthy now? Also notice that more and more Drs and vets are beginning to realize their mistakes in pushing their traditional methods. Why else have they developed a 3 year rabies vaccine? I believe it is because vets are realizing they ARE in fact over-vaccinating, but they cannot stop it all together because they will lose money.
> 
> 
> I would be more than happy to provide you with evidence that what YOU are pushing, also has its risks. Nothing in life is 100% safe nor 100% effective. I also love how you state I am playing games with something that has a 100% infection rate........my dogs have not had heartworm preventative in years. I live in the south, with an overload of mosquitoes, .....no heartworms. Lucky? or my dog's immune systems are healthier because of their diet. If their systems are healthy enough, their natural immune defenses can actually kill off the larva. Ever wonder why you almost always see UNhealthy dogs with heartworms?


You are just lucky. I am happy for you but what you don't realize is that others may not be lucky and they read your misinformation. A dog bitten by an infected mosquito will have virtually a 100% infection rate. I didn't say 100% of dogs get heartworms. 

All dogs are at risk to heartworms, it has nothing to do with immune reponse. 

I am waiting for the peer reviewed studies on Black Walnut. I was just reading it works on Alzheimer's too. LOL

One by one when the so-called Alternative remedies are subject to scientific scrutiny they fail, with one in a million holding up.


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## Liz (Sep 27, 2010)

River Run it is nice to see someone who is interested in more natural care. Don't feel the need to defend your position becasue you will never had enough or acceptable "scientific facts" for people like Monster's Dad. Alternative are alternative because they are different than conventional not because they don't work.


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## Sheltielover25 (Jan 18, 2011)

RiverRun said:


> sooooo, are you going to tell that to the people that have successfully used an alternative? There is an alternative for everything. Ever wonder why people and animals are so unhealthy now? Also notice that more and more Drs and vets are beginning to realize their mistakes in pushing their traditional methods. Why else have they developed a 3 year rabies vaccine? I believe it is because vets are realizing they ARE in fact over-vaccinating, but they cannot stop it all together because they will lose money.
> 
> 
> I would be more than happy to provide you with evidence that what YOU are pushing, also has its risks. Nothing in life is 100% safe nor 100% effective. I also love how you state I am playing games with something that has a 100% infection rate........my dogs have not had heartworm preventative in years. I live in the south, with an overload of mosquitoes, .....no heartworms. Lucky? or my dog's immune systems are healthier because of their diet. If their systems are healthy enough, their natural immune defenses can actually kill off the larva. Ever wonder why you almost always see UNhealthy dogs with heartworms?


I second this. I lived in Texas/Oklahoma/Arkansas in the dead of summer and I haven't used heartworm medicine in over two years (or flea for that matter) I have had this discussion with people who are so adamant for HW preventions and they never recall a dog who was healthy catching them. Sure lots of dogs are brought into rescues with them -- who knows what they've been through. I'm not in any way/shape/form the least bit worried about heartworms and even if I were two of mine have neurological damage preventing them from taking such medications so it's not even an option. Vets are amazed when I bring my dogs in... to the point they don't even question them not getting HW because they can tell by how healthy they are their mom has researched and they're getting the best care. I've had TWO vets tell me they wish they'd see more dogs like mine coming in through the door-- with fur/teeth/and health LIKE MINE. Vets go on and on about how well-cared for they are and how much muscle they have. It's great. One vet started out saying dogs need veggies/fruits and by the time we left she said she must have been wrong because my dogs weren't missing anything based on their blood and their physical appearance. Actually, one more, they went to the groomer last week and the groomer kept going on and on about how they have the softest/nicest fur of any dog they've seen and how good their diet must be.  At PetsMart for their Santa picture everyone commented also on them being the softest dogs with the cleanest teeth and were told many times they were the cutest they've seen! People stop and ask me how I keep them looking so good and what do I feed almost every time I go to the Farmer's Market... so I'm doing something right


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## tem_sat (Jun 20, 2010)

monster'sdad said:


> You cannot deal with heartworms any other way than with conventional medicine. And you must use a preventative, whether it is ivermectin or the other ones that are available. The least expensive and safest is ivermectin. If you have a MDR1 dog, get the test and stick with the 6 mcg/kg dosage.
> 
> If you have a large dog, or several for that matter, use can safely use 1% liquid or the apple flavored paste.


You are talking about preventative when I am talking about treatment. I do not agree that Ivermectin is the "safest" route for TREATMENT. I also never said anything about nonconventional methods. Correct me if I am wrong, but the topic of discussion is TREATMENT for a HW+ dog.


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## tem_sat (Jun 20, 2010)

RiverRun said:


> Tem_sat, I am confused, I thought you said Immiticide did not work? Your last post states that it did?


That's exactly what I am saying. It did work and I would do it again if I had to. 8 weeks is a drop in the bucket compared to 6 months or a year for the "slow cure" Ivermectin or the untested holistic approaches. If you read further you will see that at least one states that if your dog shows to be HW+ after the 6 month period, go ahead with the conventional approach. I personally wouldn't do it any other way. If in a MAJOR financial bind, I can see going with the "slow kill" method, but only due to finances.

Added: For those who think Heartworm doesn't occur in their area, the way to really know is to run stats on the percentage of HW+ dogs that are strays and are taken in to a shelter and tested. You wouldn't believe the numbers in San Antonio, Texas. Yes, my dog was a stray, yes he was HW+ positive, and yes I adopted him, and he's fine now after treatment. My vet does an average of 3 HW treatments a week. That's just him! It's rampant where I live.


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## Sheltielover25 (Jan 18, 2011)

tem_sat said:


> That's exactly what I am saying. It did work and I would do it again if I had to. 8 weeks is a drop in the bucket compared to 6 months or a year for the "slow cure" Ivermectin or the untested holistic approaches. If you read further you will see that at least one states that if your dog shows to be HW+ after the 6 month period, go ahead with the conventional approach. I personally wouldn't do it any other way. If in a MAJOR financial bind, I can see going with the "slow kill" method, but only due to finances.
> 
> Added: For those who think Heartworm doesn't occur in their area, the way to really know is to run stats on the percentage of HW+ dogs that are strays and are taken in to a shelter and tested. You wouldn't believe the numbers in San Antonio, Texas. Yes, my dog was a stray, yes he was HW+ positive, and yes I adopted him, and he's fine now after treatment. My vet does an average of 3 HW treatments a week. That's just him! It's rampant where I live.


No one is arguing if it's high in certain areas... we're saying healthy dogs don't have to worry about it because their immune system can handle things. I see rescues coming in all the time to shelters with heart worms, but I've never heard of a healthy, well-cared for dog getting them, and if there have been cases, they're certainly not the norm.

Heartworms exist there's no debating that. The debate lies in healthy animals getting them and since there hasn't really been much research into the issue we have to go by our gut-feeling on this one... I've never seen anything that shows whether an unvaccinated dog is healthier than a vaccinated dog or vice versa. I've never seen anything on healthy dogs and heart worms -- only on shelter dogs. I know there has never been a study conducted on vaccinated people vs unvaccinated sooo until then no one really knows and we all go based on our research on the particular subject and do we feel is safest for our pets. I cringe when I see people giving monthly medicines like this but it's not my place to tell someone what to do...


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## RiverRun (Jun 29, 2011)

monster'sdad said:


> . A dog bitten by an infected mosquito will have virtually a 100% infection rate. I didn't say 100% of dogs get heartworms.
> 
> All dogs are at risk to heartworms, it has nothing to do with immune reponse.


Let me act like you for a moment.
.
.
.WRONG.
An infected mosquito must bite a dog, inject the larva; bite the dog again and pick up the larva and incubate it, then bite a dog again to inject the matured worm. Only that worm can travel through the bloodstream and enter the heart.


So NO, all dogs bitten by infected mosquito will NOT be 100% guaranteed to be infected. New larva cannot survive in the dog. It will be killed before it can reach maturity.


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## RiverRun (Jun 29, 2011)

Sheltielover25 said:


> No one is arguing if it's high in certain areas... we're saying healthy dogs don't have to worry about it because their immune system can handle things. I see rescues coming in all the time to shelters with heart worms, but I've never heard of a healthy, well-cared for dog getting them, and if there have been cases, they're certainly not the norm.
> 
> Heartworms exist there's no debating that. The debate lies in healthy animals getting them and since there hasn't really been much research into the issue we have to go by our gut-feeling on this one... I've never seen anything that shows whether an unvaccinated dog is healthier than a vaccinated dog or vice versa. I've never seen anything on healthy dogs and heart worms -- only on shelter dogs. I know there has never been a study conducted on vaccinated people vs unvaccinated sooo until then no one really knows and we all go based on our research on the particular subject and do we feel is safest for our pets. I cringe when I see people giving monthly medicines like this but it's not my place to tell someone what to do...



I second everything you just said.


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## tem_sat (Jun 20, 2010)

Sheltielover25 said:


> No one is arguing if it's high in certain areas... we're saying healthy dogs don't have to worry about it because their immune system can handle things. I see rescues coming in all the time to shelters with heart worms, but I've never heard of a healthy, well-cared for dog getting them, and if there have been cases, they're certainly not the norm.
> 
> Heartworms exist there's no debating that. The debate lies in healthy animals getting them and since there hasn't really been much research into the issue we have to go by our gut-feeling on this one... I've never seen anything that shows whether an unvaccinated dog is healthier than a vaccinated dog or vice versa. I've never seen anything on healthy dogs and heart worms -- only on shelter dogs. I know there has never been a study conducted on vaccinated people vs unvaccinated sooo until then no one really knows and we all go based on our research on the particular subject and do we feel is safest for our pets. I cringe when I see people giving monthly medicines like this but it's not my place to tell someone what to do...


Just to be clear, you and I agree on so many things! I switched to virtually all grass fed / pastured / locally farmed PMR because of you. :becky:

The one thing I could not possibly go through again would be to have my dog end up HW+ for the 2nd time. For that reason, I religiously give him his monthly preventative. I could also live with a 45-day schedule. I feel that I am informed enough to be comfortable with that. 

One last comment...the PRIMARY reason I switched to PMR from kibble was to improve his immune system post Immiticide treatment. I can't prove that it works either, however, I feel much more comfortable this way.


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## Sheltielover25 (Jan 18, 2011)

tem_sat said:


> Just to be clear, you and I agree on so many things! I switched to virtually all grass fed / pastured / locally farmed PMR because of you. :becky:
> 
> The one thing I could not possibly go through again would be to have my dog end up HW+ for the 2nd time. For that reason, I religiously give him his monthly preventative. I could also live with a 45-day schedule. I feel that I am informed enough to be comfortable with that.
> 
> One last comment...the PRIMARY reason I switched to PMR from kibble was to improve his immune system post Immiticide treatment. I can't prove that it works either, however, I feel much more comfortable this way.


If there's on thing in life I've learned we all feel/do things based on strong convictions and if I'd been through treating a dog with heartworms I might think/feel different. Unfortunately, I was on the end where damage was done due to a toxin so I base my feelings on that. You know more about your dog and their heath than anyone else.. I haven't dealt with a dog who had heartworms or weak immuned systems so again I might handle it differently.

Everyone should do what they're comfortable with after they have assessed the situation and researched the pros/cons of what that situation may be. And I'm glad you switched to the ethically raised stuff and I bet your pup appreciates it! And nobody should tell someone to use or not use a drug, but rather explain why you would or wouldn't so the person can see where you're coming from. And we should all be open to different methods as one might come along that works better for our pups than what we had been doing.


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## shellbell (Sep 24, 2011)

I feed raw and don't vaccinate or use any flea or tick preventatives, but HW is not something I want to mess around with. My dogs get monthly preventative year round, per the guidance of the holistic vet that we see. If I were dealing with a HW+ dog, I woud treat conventionally with a proven method, and work with my holistic vet who also believes in using conventional medicine when necessary. There are lots of natural options out there for preventing or treating HW, but this is one area where I would go with what I know works, and it is kind of iffy on the natural stuff when it comes to HW, unfortunately. I had this conversation with my holistic vet when I was wondering if I was doing the right thing by giving monthly preventative. She told me that none of the natural preventatives or treatments have ever been proven to work, or else she would be all over it. She recommends Heartguard or Interceptor year round for where we live. Used to be she recommended it every 45 days and only certain times of the year. However there has been a recent mosquito gene mutation causing the lifecycle of the HW to shorten. Right now this is moreso down south but will probably travel up the Mississippi and spread. Which is why she has changed her recommendation. And she does not even sell HW preventative out of her office, she just writes a script for it...so it's not a matter of her thinking she is going to make money telling clients it is necessary. Jut my 2 cents and I will leave it at that....


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## SaharaNight Boxers (Jun 28, 2011)

I agree with the above. Some holistic vets say it works and others don't. I'm only going to give Heartworm May-October (end) or less depending on the weather. I'm not in a high risk area.


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## DaViking (Sep 27, 2011)

RiverRun said:


> Let me act like you for a moment.
> .
> .
> .WRONG.
> ...


Hmmmm, no. With all due respect. Everyone should look away from this, including the ones who liked it so much. This is exactly how erroneous information is spread.

Mosquito bites and ingest microfilariea from dog X --> Mosquito incubates microfilariea into infective larvae -- > Mosquito deposit infective larvae on skin of dog Y, larvae then enter the bite wound and mature in the tissue of dog Y --> Juvenile larvae move to systemic veins and embolize the pulmonary arteries --> Larvae produces new microfilariea to complete the cycle.

http://www.terrierman.com/heartworm-seasonality-knight-LOK.pdf

Also, the argument that some dogs and wild wolfs do not get heartworm is vague at best. Spreading of heartworm is a local issue. Mosquitoes doesn't fly all over the place and doesn't migrate to nearby areas or cities. Dogs in rural areas with no heartworm positive dogs as neighbors is at minimal risk of getting heartworm. So are wolfs since they for the most part stay away from densely populated areas with thousands of dogs.

If you want to leave it up to faith and the all mighty immune system be my guest, just glad it's not my dog.


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## CorgiPaws (Mar 31, 2009)

This is the Holistic Alternatives and Remedies Section. 
This is the section to ask questions about holistic alternatives and remedies... and to suggest holistic alternatives and remedies to those asking.
If you have no suggestions on Holistic Alternatives and Remedies, please do not post here. If the OP wanted advice on or to discuss conventional medicine surely they would have posted there. 

WHY am I having to tell the SAME people over and over again to keep to the applied sections?


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## DaViking (Sep 27, 2011)

CorgiPaws said:


> This is the Holistic Alternatives and Remedies Section.
> This is the section to ask questions about holistic alternatives and remedies... and to suggest holistic alternatives and remedies to those asking.
> If you have no suggestions on Holistic Alternatives and Remedies, please do not post here. If the OP wanted advice on or to discuss conventional medicine surely they would have posted there.
> 
> WHY am I having to tell the SAME people over and over again to keep to the applied sections?


who are you referring to?


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## CorgiPaws (Mar 31, 2009)

DaViking said:


> who are you referring to?


Anyone who came to a thread in this section to say "holistic alternatives don't work."

who happens to be the same person who went to the raw section to tell someone to feed kibble to their puppy.


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## meggels (May 30, 2010)

RiverRun said:


> Let me act like you for a moment.
> .
> .
> .WRONG.
> ...


Also, the temperature it needs to remain outside for I think 30 days and nights straight to allow for the full cycle is highly unlikely in much of the US.


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## meggels (May 30, 2010)

Sheltielover25 said:


> If there's on thing in life I've learned we all feel/do things based on strong convictions and if I'd been through treating a dog with heartworms I might think/feel different. Unfortunately, I was on the end where damage was done due to a toxin so I base my feelings on that. You know more about your dog and their heath than anyone else.. I haven't dealt with a dog who had heartworms or weak immuned systems so again I might handle it differently.
> 
> Everyone should do what they're comfortable with after they have assessed the situation and researched the pros/cons of what that situation may be. And I'm glad you switched to the ethically raised stuff and I bet your pup appreciates it! And nobody should tell someone to use or not use a drug, but rather explain why you would or wouldn't so the person can see where you're coming from. And we should all be open to different methods as one might come along that works better for our pups than what we had been doing.


Well said, both sheltie lover and tem_sat...

I ended up feeding Murph raw because of a nasty reaction to his first and only rabies vaccine that wrecked his immune system.


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## naturalfeddogs (Jan 6, 2011)

CorgiPaws said:


> This is the Holistic Alternatives and Remedies Section.
> This is the section to ask questions about holistic alternatives and remedies... and to suggest holistic alternatives and remedies to those asking.
> If you have no suggestions on Holistic Alternatives and Remedies, please do not post here. If the OP wanted advice on or to discuss conventional medicine surely they would have posted there.
> 
> WHY am I having to tell the SAME people over and over again to keep to the applied sections?


I was wondering exactly the same thing.


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## twotonelover (Jan 10, 2011)

I'd like to just make a comment on heartworm. I've worked in an animal shelter for almost 3 years. I would say 80-90% of the dogs surrendered to us were NOT on monthly preventative (heck, most of them had never even stepped into a vets office), and of the thousands of dogs that we have gotten, only *2 * tested positive for heartworm. One of them ended up having cancer, and the other was a very old, blind dog. These dogs were not the dogs kept outside year round, they were mostly indoor dogs who only went out for walks and potty breaks. I think its safe to say a dogs immune system plays a very large part in whether or not they become infected with heartworm. And I wouldn't say Massachusetts has a low incidence of heartworm, especially southeastern MA. Maybe moderate to lower high range.

As for alternative methods to treat HW, I haven't used any myself. The only ones I've heard of were Heartworm Free, Black walnut and paratox.


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## tem_sat (Jun 20, 2010)

twotonelover said:


> ...and of the thousands of dogs that we have gotten, only *2 * tested positive for heartworm.


It's not uncommon for a dog to test negative and then end up HW+. My own pet tested negative for HW when he arrived at the shelter. 6 months later he tested positive (less than 1 week after I adopted him). 

For further info about the accuracy of testing, see: American Heartworm Society | Canine Heartworm


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## bett (Mar 15, 2012)

monster'sdad said:


> There are none. Listen to a licensed, experienced Dr. Let that person handle it.
> 
> As far as prevention, the cost of Heartguard is largely to blame for people not using ivermectin. I switched years ago to liquid ivermectin and paste. You don't have to buy paste in large quantities so for a person with one or two larger dogs it makes sense, assuming the dog is not a breed that is sensitive to ivermectin.



dangerous. dangerous. dangerous.


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## TTs Towel (Jul 10, 2012)

Liz said:


> You might want to check out the information on this site. Heartworm Cures





SaharaNight Boxers said:


> This is the best one I found.
> 
> Bandit's Buddies Heartworm Program



These seem legit... :rollseyes:


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## TTs Towel (Jul 10, 2012)

Sheltielover25 said:


> but I've never heard of a healthy, well-cared for dog getting them, and if there have been cases, they're certainly not the norm..


I don't know about anyone else but this is enough proof for me. You've never heard of healthy, well-cared for dogs getting HW = I'm stopping my HWP on my dog immediately because he is otherwise healthy and def. taken care of.


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## Liz (Sep 27, 2010)

As our moderator stated "This is the Holistic Alternatives and Remedies Section. 
This is the section to ask questions about holistic alternatives and remedies... and to suggest holistic alternatives and remedies to those asking.
If you have no suggestions on Holistic Alternatives and Remedies, please do not post here. If the OP wanted advice on or to discuss conventional medicine surely they would have posted there. 

WHY am I having to tell the SAME people over and over again to keep to the applied sections?" 

Your commentary was in the wrong section as we are not discussing allopathic medicine.


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## meggels (May 30, 2010)

Liz said:


> As our moderator stated "This is the Holistic Alternatives and Remedies Section.
> This is the section to ask questions about holistic alternatives and remedies... and to suggest holistic alternatives and remedies to those asking.
> If you have no suggestions on Holistic Alternatives and Remedies, please do not post here. If the OP wanted advice on or to discuss conventional medicine surely they would have posted there.
> 
> ...



Yes. Thank you for quoting Liz.

If you don't agree with someone, keep the snarky comments to yourself, please.


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## Herzo (Feb 5, 2011)

I think TT is having a bad day, all comments seem to be a bit snarky today.


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## naturalfeddogs (Jan 6, 2011)

Sort of smells suspicously like MD? Just a thought that crossed my mind......


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