# Nutrition Education for Vets vs. Zookeepers



## SpooOwner (Oct 1, 2010)

What do zoos feed their wolves? I'm guessing that zoos don't feed kibble, and probably feed raw meat (with or without extras). Aren't zookeepers vets (or have similar training)? If so, how do they go from being taught to feed dogs grains to actually feeding wolves raw?


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## CavePaws (Jan 25, 2011)

No, Zookeepers are not vets. They have animal husbandry training, hopefully some behavior training too? I'm not sure of all the qualifications, I just know, they are definitely not veterinarians. Zoos have Veterinarians for the animals.

Well, in the case of wolves at a zoo, I've never been to one during feeding time so I couldn't say for certain...I would hope to god they give them whole carcasses though. In a perfect world, I'd want them to drop some live rabbits and deer in the enclosure and peace out, let the wolves do the rest. Wolves are my favorite animal and it really makes me sad knowing they can't use their instincts to hunt in a zoo.


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

my husband and i were talking about this one day..

the san diego zoo feeds what they call:


> Carnivore diet
> Carnivore diet consists mostly of ground beef and beef heart. It also contains additional amino acids, vitamins, and minerals such as calcium and phosphorus. 61.8 tons of carnivore diet are used in one year at the San Diego Zoo and the San Diego Zoo's Wild Animal Park!


National Zoo - Washington, D.C.


> Zoo Feedings
> Wolves housed in zoos are not fed a natural diet. They are provided dry dog food made specifically for canines of the wild. They are also fed treats such as mice, oxtail bones, chicks and hard-boiled eggs.


these are just two examples....i believe it varies from zoo to zoo.


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## Caty M (Aug 13, 2010)

When I went to our zoo last the three wolves were eating half a deer carcass. I sat there for like half an hour watching! 

The owls, condors, cougars, tigers, lions and snow leopards there as well were being fed raw.

"Mommy, why is that vulture cuddling the sleeping bunny????!"


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## CavePaws (Jan 25, 2011)

:shocked:

...That is pathetic and disgusting. San Diego Zoos diet for them I meant to say is pathetic and disgusting to me, when I say that I'm talking ethics...whatever if they're getting the proper nutrients, that's honestly the minimum they can do for them. At least they're doing better than Washington...

Washington's diet for them is deplorable and wrong on so many levels. I'm completely and utterly disgusted. 

Thank you for sharing this info, magicre...My funds won't be going to either zoo.

If you like wolves, check out this link. It seems these zoos are offering them a safer environment than what they're living in now, unfortunately, all due completely to humans. edit: That video contains some really sensitive footage, so, it's just a warning. Don't click it if you don't want to see what the Alaskan government has done to their Wolves.


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## BrownieM (Aug 30, 2010)

magicre said:


> my husband and i were talking about this one day..
> 
> the san diego zoo feeds what they call:
> 
> ...


I feel bad for the wolves at the zoo in D.C.! At least they get raw snacks :smile:


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## cprcheetah (Jul 14, 2010)

That is so incredibly sad that they aren't feeding them the proper diet.


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

i was personally surprised at the san diego zoo...they are considered to be one of the best zoos in the country....but, apparently, not when it comes to feeding.

we have something called northwest trek in washington state, where they feed a true carnivore diet....meaning real mammals....: )

but knowing that the national zoo feeds kibble is just nauseating....


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## RawFedDogs (Jun 16, 2008)

When I volunteered at Zoo Atlanta, they fed the carnivores something they called "compressed horse". It was a big bone shaped object about a foot or foot and a half long and as big around as my wrist. The way it was explained to me what that it was made up of ground horse (the whole horse ground up) that was compressed into this bone shaped object. I wasn't into animal nutrition at that time so I really didn't pay a whole lot of attention. I just knew enough to tell something to zoo visitors when they asked what the carnivores were fed.


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## CorgiPaws (Mar 31, 2009)

Somewhat unrelated:

After high school, I took a ROTC course on Animal Careers taught by one of the zookeepers at the San Diego zoo. It was really neat, on the last day, we went behind the scenes on a lot of the operations at the San Diego Zoo (I grew up in San Diego) and learn about the many things that go on there, aside from just having wild animals on display. I can't remember the exact statistic, but a good MAJORITY of the animals due to health are not suitable to live in the wild, and they do more releases into the wild than most zoos. (granted they're much bigger than most zoos, too... so...) 

The diet they feed may not be perfect. Clearly, it's not. But hey also said that it's contains *mostly* ground beef and heart. Consider the volume they feed, and the local resources. 

I guess what I'm saying is that it's really easy to jump on an organization for doing something less-than-stellar, but the San Diego zoo is doing SO much right, and the whole experience made me not quite so anti-zoo as I once was. They do a lot of good there, a lot of rehabilitation and medical treating of animals then released back into the wild. I'd not hesitate for a second to give my money to that cause.... even if their feeding regimen could improve. 

And for what it's worth, the day I was there, I can't remember which big cat it was, but they were being fed whole rabbit that day.


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

CorgiPaws said:


> Somewhat unrelated:
> 
> After high school, I took a ROTC course on Animal Careers taught by one of the zookeepers at the San Diego zoo. It was really neat, on the last day, we went behind the scenes on a lot of the operations at the San Diego Zoo (I grew up in San Diego) and learn about the many things that go on there, aside from just having wild animals on display. I can't remember the exact statistic, but a good MAJORITY of the animals due to health are not suitable to live in the wild, and they do more releases into the wild than most zoos. (granted they're much bigger than most zoos, too... so...)
> 
> ...


because of the san diego zoo's reputation and the zoo itself...i was just surprised...at least they get meat....especially when compared compressed to horse grind or kibble or g'd knows what....i think i read an article when we were looking up what wolves were fed at zoos...that san diego does feed small mammals, like rabbits and mice and rabbits...but as treats...

i was merely surprised....i've been to that zoo a number of times and it is so well run....it's held in high regard world wide....

but, the zoos and habitats that feed kibble? can't wrap my head around that one.....


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## CavePaws (Jan 25, 2011)

Corgipaws - That's nice to know that they gave whichever cat a good snack. I went there two years ago myself, have multiple pictures of their sign that says to watch out for the male lion spraying because we thought that was pretty hilarious there was a "spray zone". Anyway. I didn't see the wolves when I was there unfortunately, I'd love to have seen them. It is a really beautiful zoo and I did enjoy it while I was there. I'm not too big on zoos...I just feel like for the amount of money they bring in they could be spending it on whole prey for their wolves...

That would mean they would need to spend money on whole prey and better diets for the other animals. If the fact is that the _economy _stops them from doing this and that this is the best they can do, then, it's the best they can do. I'm not saying they're not doing other things right by their animals. I feel like feeding the animals a diet replicating the better of what they would receive in the wild is the least we as their keepers can do. It goes back to the morality of it in my eyes, their pocketbook aside.


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## CorgiPaws (Mar 31, 2009)

CavePaws said:


> I'm not too big on zoos...I just feel like for the amount of money they bring in they could be spending it on whole prey for their wolves...


I think you're under the impression that they are far greedier than they are. Now, I'm not saying they make no money. Clearly, that would be a lie. 
But, take into consideration that MOST of the animals there have different medical hitches, requiring medication.
Then take into consideration that the expenses given to rehabilitate the ones for release is huge. We're talking transporting large animals to other countries, even. 
Consider wages for employees, emergency veterinary expenses, transport fees, extensive training of staff, and can you IMAGINE their water and utility bills?! To keep an operation as large as the San Diego Zoo afloat, we're talking BIG bucks. Did you also keep in mind the Wild Animal Park that is also operating out of San Diego with the same mission? 




CavePaws said:


> That would mean they would need to spend money on whole prey and better diets for the other animals. If the fact is that the _economy _stops them from doing this and that this is the best they can do, then, it's the best they can do. I'm not saying they're not doing other things right by their animals. I feel like feeding the animals a diet replicating the better of what they would receive in the wild is the least we as their keepers can do. It goes back to the morality of it in my eyes, their pocketbook aside.


The economy plays a HUGE role in things like Zoos, especially one as iconic as the San Diego Zoo, where much of the revenue is brought in by tourists. If it weren't for donations, they'd e in big trouble. 


By no means am I claiming they are not money driven in the slightest. Everyone there has to ear a living. It's a fact of life, and you can not expect people to work long, hard shifts at any place let alone a zoo that takes on the responsibility of caring for live animals, and NOT make money. That's not only unrealistic, but also selfish. Shoot, I love my job, I get to take care of people's dogs all day, and educate them! But, if I wasn't making money doing it, there's NO way I could. 

What I can say is I've been there. I've picked their brains. I've seen some of the animals that are never on display because their health is too weak, they don't want added stress of crowds to come into play. I've discussed their rehabilitation program as well as their Release program with people right there in the middle of it. 

No one is perfect, No organization is perfect. But it is ENTIRELY unfair to expect perfection. Sad, really. 



> Thank you for sharing this info, magicre...My funds won't be going to either zoo.


Those funds could be what helps the next Panda cub make his way into the wild. But, because their raw feeding regimen doesn't quite stack up to your kibble/raw diet, you refuse.... That, in my eyes, is a tragedy. :sad::sad:


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

in all truth....when dh and i were looking things up, it was out of mere curiousity....but when i realised that many zoos and habitats were feeding kibble....we started digging deeper...

i agree that the san diego zoo is probably one of the most responsible of all animal keepers....

i will still send money to them....they have a fine outfit. i was just giving out information...

their wolves....whilst no one is tossing them a sheep or lamb or calf...they are getting nutritious food....hamburger and beef heart is a carnivore diet...

there are plenty of humans who feed ground beef..there are plenty of people who are more concerned with price than with quality...so which is worse...a diet of enhanced chickens? or a diet of hamburger and beef heart? i'll take the hamburger and beef heart.

as to other places....i am ashamed of the national zoo in washington...this is not just a city for politics...this is the smithsonian, the library of congress...this is a seat of learning and knowledge....and they don't know what to feed wolves? shame on them.


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## CorgiPaws (Mar 31, 2009)

magicre said:


> in all truth....when dh and i were looking things up, it was out of mere curiousity....but when i realised that many zoos and habitats were feeding kibble....we started digging deeper...
> 
> i agree that the san diego zoo is probably one of the most responsible of all animal keepers....
> 
> ...


I am all for information being out there! Knowledge is power. I'm not supporting the diet, nor claiming it to be ideal. 

But I'm also not about to discredit a great organization for one minor flaw. I'm far more impressed with this diet than any diet containing little doom nuggets so many affectionately call "kibble" in ANY amount. 

Fresh foods > processed....ALWAYS


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## RawFedDogs (Jun 16, 2008)

The zoo in Atlanta is a non-profit. 1/3 of their money comes from gate receipts, 1/3 for private and coorperate donations, and 1/3 from one big huge fund raising banquet held once a year.

This zoo, at the time I was there, spent a lot of time and money on research. There were always many research projects going on at the same time. There were zoo employees and other attached to the zoo through educational programs that traveled to destinations all over the world. There was always one employee (several rotated) in China working w/ pandas doing research in the wild and working with chinese keepers, etc. There were always 10 or 15 or 20 grad students doing research for their master's or Phd's.

There is nowhere nearly enough money to go around there. Another think no one thinks of is that they have to constantly be building new exhibits or upgrading existing ones. If they didn't build new ones, people would get tired of seeing just the old ones and would stop coming.

It takes A LOT of money to run a zoo if you run it right.


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## CavePaws (Jan 25, 2011)

I suppose it is easy to simplify a Zoo in your head if you've never been behind the scenes or didn't even think of the basic costs of electricity, water, and new exhibits. Those alone would be a nightmare number in a zoo the size of San Diego's. That's a crazy amount of money. I agree it's unfair to expect perfection...Though wouldn't it be nice if that is what we could give the animals living there.

In retrospect, I'm wrong in saying I wouldn't give San Diego Zoo my money if I could. That money does indeed go towards the animals living there in some form or another. My bad for jumping on that like a crazy person, it just touched a bit of a nerve.


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## CorgiPaws (Mar 31, 2009)

CavePaws said:


> I suppose it is easy to simplify a Zoo in your head if you've never been behind the scenes or didn't even think of the basic costs of electricity, water, and new exhibits. Those alone would be a nightmare number in a zoo the size of San Diego's. That's a crazy amount of money. I agree it's unfair to expect perfection...Though wouldn't it be nice if that is what we could give the animals living there.
> 
> In retrospect, I'm wrong in saying I wouldn't give San Diego Zoo my money if I could. That money does indeed go towards the animals living there in some form or another. My bad for jumping on that like a crazy person, it just touched a bit of a nerve.


We are all passionate people here, I think that's wonderful! 
I know I often times get a nerve struck and run with it, and get put back into perspective alllll the time!
:becky::happy:


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## CavePaws (Jan 25, 2011)

I think it's wonderful to have so many animal lovers who care about stuff like this out there too. :]

You live and you learn and I've got a habit of jumping into things like that before really thinking out what I'm saying. My entire comment about not giving them my money completely contradicts the fact that I do love the animals there and wish them the best. Zoos can only thrive on the money they make to support the animals who live there...Thinking about the cost of medicines for all the sick ones right now. O_O That's crazy stuff.


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

and, in an ideal world there would be no need for zoos or endagered species legislation....or captivity to keep an animal from going extinct, just because hunters want the ivory or the rhino horn or whatever is in fashion that day.

i know it takes money to run these kinds of operations....but if one is going to be a world class city, like atlanta, washington, d.c., philadelphi, new york, seattle, dallas, san diego...then damn it. spend the money on the appropriate food.

this isn't a friendly argument about whether wolves are carnivores....they are. period.
so feed them appropriately. it's not as if we aren't overpopulated with deer.

now. THAT is the circle of life.


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## SpooOwner (Oct 1, 2010)

OK, so (1) I misused the term zookeeper, and (2) we don't think very highly of the ground meat used at the San Diego Zoo. My larger point is this: the SDZ is feeding a relatively normal diet to their wolves. Why? Why are they getting it more or less right? Why aren't they feeding kibble, too? What's different in their training?


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## CorgiPaws (Mar 31, 2009)

SpooOwner said:


> OK, so (1) I misused the term zookeeper, and (2) we don't think very highly of the ground meat used at the San Diego Zoo. My larger point is this: the SDZ is feeding a relatively normal diet to their wolves. Why? Why are they getting it more or less right? Why aren't they feeding kibble, too? What's different in their training?


Ah, why didn't you say so?!

I don't think any of us actually know the answer, BUT, here's my best guess:

San Diego Zoo feeds wolves raw meat, whereas vets recommend kibble to dogs. I think this first stems from the common thought that through domestication their nutritional needs have also transformed. You and I know this to be incorrect but the sad matter of the fact is it is a widely accepted way of thinking. It's easier to look at a wolf and think "wild animal" than it is to look at a chipomipeekaboo and think "wild animal":happy: True wolves, as the world knows them, are widely accepted as opportunistic carnivores. Honestly I'm surprised they aren't fed a BARF diet, thank goodness. 

Where the difference comes in from zoo to zoo I can't really say, though I think it's safe to assume that when you run an operation as WORLD renowned as the San Diego Zoo, there is a bit more research and training going on.


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## Herzo (Feb 5, 2011)

CavePaws said:


> No, Zookeepers are not vets. They have animal husbandry training, hopefully some behavior training too? I'm not sure of all the qualifications, I just know, they are definitely not veterinarians. Zoos have Veterinarians for the animals.
> 
> Well, in the case of wolves at a zoo, I've never been to one during feeding time so I couldn't say for certain...I would hope to god they give them whole carcasses though. In a perfect world, I'd want them to drop some live rabbits and deer in the enclosure and peace out, let the wolves do the rest. Wolves are my favorite animal and it really makes me sad knowing they can't use their instincts to hunt in a zoo.


There is never a perfect world and though I do think wolves are magnificent animals so are rabbits and deer and seeing them killed before my very eyes or having there back ends eaten off while still alive is not something I would want to watch.I had to hear a rabbit scream when my Basset got it.That was not fun, thank goodness she killed it quick.Some times I hate nature.And a wolf doesn't always kill quickly or just for food.Sorry I just had to add the down side to life.


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