# Would you say this diet is OK, even though it is not 80/10/10?



## monkey (Oct 21, 2016)

I'm afraid this diet is nowhere near 80/10/10 or the likes.... But our dogs have been eating it since I remember myself, and always seemed to fare exceptionally well, some are even better than expected. Such as our previous dog english bullterrier died at the age of 14, with the breed average lifespan being 10-12 years. And she has been active and bright right until the end. 

I would love to hear your feedback, good or bad. My current dogs are fox terriers (about 8kg), very active and as a breed can be hyper. They eat the following mixture twice a day:


Raw meats - 150g

A choice of pretty much everything except pork: beef, lamb, chicken, turkey, hearts, liver, kidneys, tripe, game (when on sale!) All is human grade where possible organic and always free range. Except tripe which cannot be bought raw in human shops here, so we get it from a pet shop. Occasionally they get fish, white or salmon. Of the bones I feed chicken necks regularly at least 3 times a week (for growing puppies every day) these are from an organic local farm.

Carbs - 2/3 of a good size mug

A choice of rolled oats, buckwheat, amarant, quinoa, sweet potatoes, very occasionally rice, all organic. These are all cooked: buckwheat and rice boiled; sweet potatoes steamed; oats amarant and quinoa soaked for 10-12 hours. 

Raw veggies - a handful

A choice of (and often a mixture of) carrots, lettuce, broccoli, white/red cabbage, cauliflower, tomatoes, cucumber, beetroot and so on - all organic, all grated/chopped.

Oils - a spoonfull

A choice of olive oil, salmon oil, coconut oil, or fat if there is any on the meat.


So the above is twice a day. In addition they get treats most days: a choice of pigs ears, fish skins, dried tripe, dried fish+potato cakes, a dollop of kefir or cottage cheese. They love pretty much all fruits (no grapes) and especially apples and eat these regularly. They eat raw egg yolk about twice a week. For training treats we use good quality kibble (currently Lilly's Kitchen). They get supplements for joints (Yumove).


I love my doggies more than life, they are like children to me. So I try to give them the best I can afford in everything. In our fridge the only 'dog food' is meats because I'm vegetarian. The rest is just 'food' for all the family including dogs. 

I'd be grateful for your opinions, and especially if it would be better for my dogs to be fed more meats? One consideration is that these are smallish dogs, and they can be hyper, hence perhaps too much protein may not be advisable for them.


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## naturalfeddogs (Jan 6, 2011)

Im not sure I understand what proteins you are feeding? You said "except" for the ones listed above. Which ones are you actually feeding? What about organs? Are those included? I don't think I saw any of those listed, and they are a must. 

As far as vegetables and grains go, they aren't needed at all. They work more as fillers than anything.


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## monkey (Oct 21, 2016)

I found this recent AKC article on grains in dog's diet: akc.org/content/health/articles/can-dogs-eat-wheat/


To Jenny: the only meat my dogs don't eat is pork (I think you missed the ":" sign :smile 

I understand the argument that grains and veggies may not be necessary - my question is rather, is there an argument that substitution of this portion of veggies and grain by meat *is* necessary?

I have been asking myself this question for a while now, because in our family dogs always had carbs in their diet. My parents fed their dogs this way, and their parents also, and so on. I don't think they ever asked the question about nutrition, it was just the way majority of dogs were fed at the time, when there was no dry food etc. For most people it was unimaginable to fill the dog's bowl with meat only, which was at premium. But apart from economic considerations, it would seem that at the time feeding all meat was also believed to be unnecessary. 

As I say the dogs were none the worse for the diet, and still are - but with the advancement of internet and discussions/suggestions about nutrition and people feeding their dogs all meat, this makes me wonder. Is it necessary to feed all meat.


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## naturalfeddogs (Jan 6, 2011)

Dogs have no biological need for carbs. Kibble is made with it which is why so many dogs are over weight. And really, the AKC doesn't mean anything, even with breeding, but that's a whole different subject. 

I don't see where you are adding any organs, u less I missed that. Those are essential in a raw diet. 

All a dog needs to meet all nutrional needs are raw meat/bone/organs. Fed in variety, that's all they need. 

I know you said your dog eats all proteins except pork, but what are they? If you are feeding at least a minimum of four, and adding organ at least weekly you should be fine. The 80/10/10 thing is just a guideline as all dogs are different. Some need more of something, some less.


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## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

Dogs have no daily nutritional requirement for carbohdrates. Also, carbohyrates are sugars. It would be difficult for me to feed my dogs sugars for no reason. 

It is fantastic your dogs have been healthy. I've had several dogs live healthy lives on Purina Dog Chow. But then, I've had dogs that were not healthy on much better quality kibble. I can't speak for everyone, but I know that I and many of my raw feeding friends who fed kibble for years and years switched when we were searching for answers for a dog that didn't. 

Today, I choose not to give them anything they don't need. Cooked and pureed vegetables do have some nutrition dogs can absorb so likely that would need to be replaced in some way unless it's totally extraneous due to the raw diet also being fed, in which case you wouldn't. However, I suspect you would certainly need to add organs with no vegetables.


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## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

I've never heard that too much protein makes a dog hyper.


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## naturalfeddogs (Jan 6, 2011)

monkey said:


> I found this recent AKC article on grains in dog's diet: akc.org/content/health/articles/can-dogs-eat-wheat/
> 
> 
> To Jenny: the only meat my dogs don't eat is pork (I think you missed the ":" sign :smile
> ...


It is necessary to feed all meat, along with bone and organs. Fed in variety that's all they need.


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## monkey (Oct 21, 2016)

xellil said:


> I've never heard that too much protein makes a dog hyper.


I've heard this, even on this forum - I think just a few threads back an owner reports positive results of switching to raw (all meat?) diet by saying that her older dog now has much more energy. 

My dogs already have a lot of energy. If I add to it "much more" - that's where the danger of hyperactivity comes


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## monkey (Oct 21, 2016)

naturalfeddogs said:


> It is necessary to feed all meat, along with bone and organs. Fed in variety that's all they need.



Why is it necessary - what is the argument for this? Do we have some data which tells us that diet where meat is supplemented by grains and veggies is less healthy than diet where all the dog eats is meat?


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## monkey (Oct 21, 2016)

BTW, just in case I'm not stuffing my doggies with veggies and grain. They like it :smile: The lifespan of a piece of raw broccoli accidentally dropped on the floor is but half-a-second. When they come out to the garden, they never fail to check for goodies on whatever fruit is in season - apple tree, strawberry patch, blackcurrants bush....


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## monkey (Oct 21, 2016)

xellil said:


> It is fantastic your dogs have been healthy. I've had several dogs live healthy lives on Purina Dog Chow. But then, I've had dogs that were not healthy on much better quality kibble. I can't speak for everyone, but I know that I and many of my raw feeding friends who fed kibble for years and years switched when we were searching for answers for a dog that didn't.


Lastly many thanks all for replies. I think this is probably the solution for now, to continue doing what feels right until and unless it no longer feels right. There is many scientific data that highly processed food is overall less healthy for dogs (as it is for humans!) hence moving to natural wholesome diet makes sense. I will continue looking for data that substituting part of the dog's meaty diet with grains and veggies is also overall less healthy. 

As I said I aim to give the best to my doggies - and them being small, it would not hurt my wallet to move to all meats - but I need to convince myself first that it is necessary, i.e. that doing so would be more healthy for my dogs than their current diet...


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## naturalfeddogs (Jan 6, 2011)

monkey said:


> I've heard this, even on this forum - I think just a few threads back an owner reports positive results of switching to raw (all meat?) diet by saying that her older dog now has much more energy.
> 
> My dogs already have a lot of energy. If I add to it "much more" - that's where the danger of hyperactivity comes


More energy maybe, not hyper. With raw, they are using so many of the nutrients, so they feel better. Its an appropriate diet. We also have more energy and feel better ourselves when we eat healthy. Meat, bones and organs are what dogs are designed to eat, so their bodies use it correctly. They get steady energy from it, vs. carbs, veggies etc.... which convert to sugar and supply energy spikes, then drops. That's the same effect as kibble.


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

we all do what makes us sleep at night.

the problem is this.

dogs are carnivores. will they eat carbs and other things? yes. will they thrive? for a while.

long term, your dogs will have stressed the pancreas, gallbladder, liver and kidneys...for they are meant to eat protein/fat/bone/organ. 

do some research, because it's obvious you love your dogs.....but dogs are not meant to be on a vegetarian diet and you are not feeding enough red meat. this is what they thrive on.


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## monkey (Oct 21, 2016)

naturalfeddogs said:


> vs. carbs, veggies etc.... which convert to sugar and supply energy spikes, then drops. That's the same effect as kibble.


Is this truly correct, vegetables causing energy spikes? Or low GI grains such as buckwheat or amaranth?


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## monkey (Oct 21, 2016)

magicre said:


> the problem is this.
> 
> dogs are carnivores. will they eat carbs and other things? yes. will they thrive? for a while.
> 
> long term, your dogs will have stressed the pancreas, gallbladder, liver and kidneys...for they are meant to eat protein/fat/bone/organ.





magicre said:


> but dogs are not meant to be on a vegetarian diet and you are not feeding enough red meat. this is what they thrive on.


That's were my question really originated, we've had dogs since I remember myself, and none of them had stressed pancreas, gallbladder, liver and kidneys on this diet. My dogs are not on vegetarian diet they do eat meat/fat/bone/organ.

What worries me though- how can I tell that the amount of meats they get daily is not enough?


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## monkey (Oct 21, 2016)

Think about it this way: people get stomach cancer. Dogs get stomach cancer. There is fairly strong scientific data that confirms raw broccoli contains elements which act as a strong preventative. 

This is just one single example. But there are many others. Stating that grains are nothing but sugar is rather sweeping wouldn't you think. There are multitude of vitamins and minerals that grains add to the diet, which are not found in meat/bone/organ. 

And this is why the dogma "Dog's don't need anything other than meat/bone/organ" doesn't appeal. Unless such diet for some reason is necessary - which I am yet to find an argument for, hence my question on this form.


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## monkey (Oct 21, 2016)

There are three objections to the argument "that's how the dogs' were designed to eat, when they were running with wolves" that I found, that seem to make sense:


1) just because dogs ate a particular way when they were wild and in nature, doesn't necessarily mean it was good for them. For example wild dogs would eat dense bones and brake their teeth, and die young. Now that we know better we can avoid these and similar disasters.

2) very long time has passed since our dogs were wild, and domesticated dogs were typically fed leftovers, some meaty, some not. Suggesting that perhaps our dogs have adapted to thrive as omnivores. 

3) and this is the one which makes the most sense. We no longer live in a natural world. Perhaps a dog cloned from a DNA of prehistoric wild animal, placed and raised in a sealed environment bubble, would thrive on meats only. But look at what's going on outside that bubble. Pollution, toxic chemicals, resistant viruses and bacteria, genetically inherited disorders and so on. Can you really really say that all the dog needs to thrive in such environment is meats? Can you really say that nothing extra may be needed: some small defences provided by other foods, that can one day - perhaps -make a difference between illness and health, or life and death?


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## naturalfeddogs (Jan 6, 2011)

monkey said:


> Is this truly correct, vegetables causing energy spikes? Or low GI grains such as buckwheat or amaranth?


Yes, because they convert to sugar...


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## naturalfeddogs (Jan 6, 2011)

monkey said:


> Think about it this way: people get stomach cancer. Dogs get stomach cancer. There is fairly strong scientific data that confirms raw broccoli contains elements which act as a strong preventative.
> 
> This is just one single example. But there are many others. Stating that grains are nothing but sugar is rather sweeping wouldn't you think. There are multitude of vitamins and minerals that grains add to the diet, which are not found in meat/bone/organ.
> 
> And this is why the dogma "Dog's don't need anything other than meat/bone/organ" doesn't appeal. Unless such diet for some reason is necessary - which I am yet to find an argument for, hence my question on this form.


Raw meat bones do supply everything a dog needs. Some veggies have SOME nutrients, but they are only available when pureed, and in small amounts.The same nutrients are already available in raw meat, bone, organ in a much more usable form for the dogs body to be able to handle. 

Their bodies trying to digest veggies and grains is very tasking on the organs. That's why a lot of dogs don't do well with them, and need grain veggie free diets. Even the dogs who seem to do well with them, when switched to a species appropriate diet will visibly and physically do much better.


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## naturalfeddogs (Jan 6, 2011)

monkey said:


> There are three objections to the argument "that's how the dogs' were designed to eat, when they were running with wolves" that I found, that seem to make sense:
> 
> 
> 1) just because dogs ate a particular way when they were wild and in nature, doesn't necessarily mean it was good for them. For example wild dogs would eat dense bones and brake their teeth, and die young. Now that we know better we can avoid these and similar disasters.
> ...


1) They don't eat weight bearing bones in the wild. They do eat the other edible ones, the same ones we give. And that's not why they die early. The biggest reason for the ones who die early is injury from hunting the large game they do. Broken jaws or leg=not able to hunt or eat, so those then would starve. Being exposed to harsh elements is a factor also.

2) Dogs and wolves still share the same DNA. Its so close, they can interbreed with each other. Only the same species can do that. And if needed, wolves would also eat our leftovers if they had no choice just to survive until they could find their own prey. It doesn't mean they could live forever on it. I'm pretty sure raiding our gardens of vegetables would be easier and safer than chasing down an elk, but they don't do that for a reason.

3) Just because our dogs don't live in the wild, doesn't mean their DNA's have changed. Their bodies still work just like a wolves does, therefore they should still eat the same species appropriate diet they were designed to eat. That diet equals good strong health to live in the harsh world we do....and just don't use chemicals on or in your dog, and that's another huge plus to their health....


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

there is approximately a .01% difference in dna between dogs and wolves. i guess that means we don't evolve so quickly.

the diet for a dog differs from humans....the absence of significant amylase is one reason.....

sugar and dogs do not jive. period. 

all carbs, be they candy or broccoli convert to sugar in the body...yes, that is energy but it doesn't mean the same thing as bursts of activity......

the energy source that dogs need is fat, mostly, and protein......the minerals and vitamins they need come from protein and fat and bone and organ....

i realise you don't force feed your animals grains and veggies, that they like it......my dogs did, too, when i fed a barf diet. 

there are those who agree that barf is the way to go....and it was in the beginning when we started feeding raw to our dogs

we were so concerned they were not getting adequate nutrition, that, we added all kinds of things.......

one cannot say their dogs' organs were not stressed , because you don't always know.

just because a dog doesn't get pancreatitis, doesn't mean the organ is not stressed and possibly shortens a life span or causes discomforts....

most dogs are stoics.....it is not often we know whether or not there is inflammation in their bodies....specifically, the organs and bones and muscles....well, basically, the whole dog. inflammation is insidious

the problem with feeding dogs is we don't have science to back us for dogs......it's not worth it to most companies or universities who are being taught by major commercial kibble companies......

what we do have is approximately 50 thousand testimonials over the past 25 years........collective stories of feeding dogs raw food......

we're not even sure if the 80-10-10 is correct carved in stone numbers or a guideline. for me, i believe it to be a guideline.

when i study the anatomy and physiology of a dog, i see similarities to humans and great differences, since they digest bone and we do not.....

i think, personally, if you feed your dogs a diet that consists of mostly red meats, and you're adding other stuff, as long as the diet is mostly red meats, you're good


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## naturalfeddogs (Jan 6, 2011)

Monkey, here is a list of nutrients found in meats....






Try to blow it up if you can, it posted really small.....


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

dang, that sucks......jenny.

it is such a great little resource to show people that animal protein gives dogs everything they need, along with bone and fat and organ. i don't know how to make that pic bigger....

there used to be a website which broke it down and the site is down....has been.

i'll see if i can find another one, though nutridata will break down each and every protein and will give a good picture of what dogs get out of meat......and other proteins.....

so does the usda database


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

try this


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

"I'm afraid this diet is nowhere near 80/10/10 or the likes.... But our dogs have been eating it since I remember myself, and always seemed to fare exceptionally well, some are even better than expected. Such as our previous dog english bullterrier died at the age of 14, with the breed average lifespan being 10-12 years. And she has been active and bright right until the end. 

I would love to hear your feedback, good or bad. My current dogs are fox terriers (about 8kg), very active and as a breed can be hyper. They eat the following mixture twice a day:"

this .....this is what i hear way too often....even in my own forum, which is a non vax'd, raw fed forum......using natural methods only

there is no reason for breeds to die so young and they didn't before we interfered with their natural diet.....injected them with toxins and gave them so called preventatives which are not preventatives, but treatments for conditions they don't yet have......

look back.......and look at certain areas in europe ...where you will see breeds who die here at 12-14....live into their late teens to twenties...and not because they being kept alive, but are alive and healthy.

i'm one of a few who no longer believes in the 80-10-10 as a carved in stone rule. i think it's a guideline........but i do believe that dogs deserve to eat what their bodies are made to eat........mostly protein (red meat) , as much bone as they individually need.......fat.....and a few organs once in a while......


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## naturalfeddogs (Jan 6, 2011)

There is a nutrient data base in the stickies of this forum, which will give some info.


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## naturalfeddogs (Jan 6, 2011)

Click on magicre's picture, it enlarges...


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## Herzo (Feb 5, 2011)

I have to laugh about the dogs eating the veggies out of the garden. This summer I picked my first cucumber of the year put it in my bowl and set it down by my beans to pick. I got busy doing something else in the garden and when I got back to pick beans the cuc was gone. I remembered Richter had gone through and so I went out back to find he had already eaten half my cuc then finished it off.

Do I think veggies are necessary, no, but I guess if you feel better giving them, well give them. I am just not going to stress with such things any more. I tried like hell to fix the Turtle even stopped feeding the birds because the dogs would eat the seed. Her ears didn't clear up any better so I now feed the birds again and well the dogs still eat it. Do I get tired of picking up dog poop with bird seed in it, yes goes right through, but it is what it is.

I guess I don't really have anything to add but I don't think protein will make your dogs more hyper, that's a breed problem.


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## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

Personally, I was thrilled to find out I didn't need to feed veggies or fruit. I had tried cooking for a day or so and I knew that was never gonna work. Being essentially lazy, I find it's a lot harder to add stuff they don't need than to just leave it out altogether.


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## Herzo (Feb 5, 2011)

xellil said:


> Personally, I was thrilled to find out I didn't need to feed veggies or fruit. I had tried cooking for a day or so and I knew that was never gonna work. Being essentially lazy, I find it's a lot harder to add stuff they don't need than to just leave it out altogether.


I agree. But sometimes a pup has to have a cuc now and then or perhaps a plum :shocked: you see I haven't forgotten.


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## naturalfeddogs (Jan 6, 2011)

Oh the plum story....Lol!


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## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

Herzo said:


> I agree. But sometimes a pup has to have a cuc now and then or perhaps a plum :shocked: you see I haven't forgotten.


ROFL! I had angst over all the sugar but in the end being able to poop won out.


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

xellil said:


> ROFL! I had angst over all the sugar but in the end being able to poop won out.



how well we remember snorkels and her plums........they served her well.....


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## InkedMarie (Sep 9, 2011)

Plum story?


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## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

Snorkels had horrible constipation. It was just a thing with her, or the way she was built, but I tried to fix it for years. Her constipation and other stomach issues were the reason I found DFC. When we went raw it was a little better but not fixed. Organs didn't help, reducing bone didn't help, she still had it. 

We moved and there was a plum tree. She got into the plums and ate 30. I counted the seeds as they came out the other end. And miracle of miracles, she had a normal poop. Most 9 pound dogs would have had horrible diarrhea after 30 plums, but she had just a regular poop like every other dog. So every day for the rest of her life, she ate a plum. She never had the terrible constipation again.

It don't ever recommend this solution, though. It was a lot of sugar. 99.9% of dogs can reverse constipation in a myriad of ways that are much better for them.


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## InkedMarie (Sep 9, 2011)

Oh Snorkels! She gave you a run for your money LOL!


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## Herzo (Feb 5, 2011)

I miss that old girl. I miss my old girl on the bottom of my page. I can't take down the picture.


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## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

Herzo said:


> I miss that old girl. I miss my old girl on the bottom of my page. I can't take down the picture.


I know, it's kinda sad how times change and our dogs pass away. I have another old lady dachshund now and I love her but she'll never be Snorkels. Snorkels was the reason I found this place, and forced me to change pretty much everything I had believed for years about taking care of a dog. 

Some dogs change your life. Just like you'll never have another Maddie even though you'll have other dogs that you love. Funny how we all do things so differently; I can't look at photos of Snorkels yet and you can't take Maddie's down. I keep waiting for the time to pass when I can talk about her without bawling and I suspect you are the same.


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

levi jacob's been gone going on three years in january......and i still cannot look at him without crying.
some dogs grab hold of your heart and soul; and, no matter what, never let go.

and it's okay......he will always be with me


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## Herzo (Feb 5, 2011)

So sad I know. On a happier note, the Schwan man was here on Friday and we were all talking about how good old Maddie bit his boss. She was going to bite him also but lucky for him he hadn't gotten into the yard yet. She looks sweet and innocent in the picture but she meant business. What a card, easy for me to say.


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## OldGnarlHead (Feb 17, 2016)

Just read through all this.. I find it kind of odd that the person came onto the forum asking to see what your thoughts were, and then when given honest opinions, didn't take any of it into consideration.. I wonder why people even come to ask questions, if all they are going to do is fight back with what they've been told, even if they asked for help... I totally believe in being skeptical and looking further into the advice people give but.. I dunno. Seems weird to me. 

The plum thing was hilarious, I probably would have had an anxiety attack and died! I hope Cricket gets to be really old..


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## naturalfeddogs (Jan 6, 2011)

I think people do that expecting to be told what they are feeding is great and wonderful, nothing wrong. Then when they are told otherwise, and realize they don't know what they thought they did, they just go away because they don't know how to discuss it anymore after that. They aren't willing to learn what's actually the correct way. I saw the op's name at the bottom of the screen after this, they just didn't bother to post anymore. Its frustrating to me.


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## OldGnarlHead (Feb 17, 2016)

I noticed OP didn't reply back after a couple of pages, it feels so disheartening when people ask questions and don't return to them. I see it all too often here


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## Herzo (Feb 5, 2011)

I agree, but there is nothing we can do I guess.


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