# Vegetables and vitamin supplements



## Maab (Nov 9, 2009)

I have been reading an article on a reputable breeder's website, where she advocates raw feeding quite extensively. 
There are thee quirks in the article that I would like You to be shed light on. 

First: she says that to complete the diet we need to add vegetables and fruits.

Second: we need to add supplements in their diets-she make a list of lots of vitamins like E, C, alfalfa, multivitamin and others.

Third: she only give dogs the yolk part of the egg. She doesn't say why. 

Any of you agree with this diet?


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## SuZQuzie (Nov 26, 2009)

Maab said:


> I have been reading an article on a reputable breeder's website, where she advocates raw feeding quite extensively.
> There are thee quirks in the article that I would like You to be shed light on.
> 
> First: she says that to complete the diet we need to add vegetables and fruits.


Need to? Nope. Would it be beneficial? Maybe. I did when I fed raw. I still give my dogs mangoes, bananas and apples. They LOVE it! Also, papaya helps with digestion and has been proven to reduce the incidence of stomach ulcers. :smile: When you do supplement with vegetable matter, make sure it is not toxic to your dog before doing so, such as those found in the allium (onion) family.



> Second: we need to add supplements in their diets-she make a list of lots of vitamins like E, C, alfalfa, multivitamin and others.


If the diet is balanced, supplementation is not needed unless the dog is at a very high level of performance.



> Third: she only give dogs the yolk part of the egg. She doesn't say why.


I'm clueless, too.


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## malluver1005 (Nov 15, 2009)

I agree with SuZQuzie. Fruits and veggies are not necessary for a canine. But, I believe they add nutritional value (even though I've been told they don't). Aspen gets broccoli and carrots with his fish for dinner. They say that carrots don't digest well in the canine stomach. When you give the carrot to them in big pieces, yes they come out the way they went in. I've seen it. That is why I puree them. The broccoli digests just fine. So do his apples. For him to be so healthy, I believe the fruits and veggies are helping. I know it's the fish too, but I don't give him a lot anyway. They aren't required in a canine diet, but my dog loves them and I choose to stick with them. :wink:

As for supplements, dogs don't need them if the diet is balanced. :wink:


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## claybuster (Dec 18, 2008)

Maab said:


> I
> 
> First: she says that to complete the diet we need to add vegetables and fruits.
> 
> ...


The first one, adding fruits and vegetables I would say has zero biological value for the dog so why waste your money?

The second one, only in regards to a kibble diet (not with raw) vitamin E can help because much of what has been added prior has been cooked out and possible nonexistent, or in such minuscule amount not beneficial.

The third one, humans do the same sometime, eating just the yoke for the protein and removing the white for health reasons. The breeder is mixing aspects of human health for carnivores, a common mistake.

Alfalfa is one of the ingredients to be avoided for dogs (toxins). Avoid it like the plague. It is also a green and serves no role in carnivore dogs diet other than delivering sub-lethal doses of poison over time. Ingredients like alfalfa and many others found in dog food are direct connections to allergies for dogs.


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## RawFedDogs (Jun 16, 2008)

Maab said:


> I have been reading an article on a reputable breeder's website, where she advocates raw feeding quite extensively.
> There are thee quirks in the article that I would like You to be shed light on.


I don't care how reputable she is, she obvously isn't an expert on canine nutrition. I know reputable breeders who recommend Purina Puppy Chow. 



> First: she says that to complete the diet we need to add vegetables and fruits.


There are no nutrients in vegetables and fruits that are not in the bodies of the prey animals that eat them. They probably won't hurt a dog but I have yet to see any convincing evidence that they help in the least little bit. One of my early mentors, Tom Lonsdale says they MAY help but I'm not convinced.



> Second: we need to add supplements in their diets-she make a list of lots of vitamins like E, C, alfalfa, multivitamin and others.


If you feed the meat, bones and organs from a variety of animals ... Mostly meat, some bone, and some organs, there is no need for any supplementation unless the dog has a health problem that might be helped by a supplement.



> Third: she only give dogs the yolk part of the egg. She doesn't say why.


I have seen that argument before. It's somethin about biotin in the egg white that does something harmful in the body. I think its an old myth. I feed my dogs whole eggs at least once a week.

If you have to process some food item (puree in this case) then the dog definately doesn't need it. They have evolved for millions of years without it and they don't need it today.


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## SuZQuzie (Nov 26, 2009)

The following is irrelevant to the OP:

I saw, malluver, that you mentioned feeding vegetables with fish. While this isn't true for all fish, many fish contain thiaminase, an enzyme that breaks down thiamine or vitamin B1. A diet with enough thiaminase-containing fish in it can result in B1 deficiency; one of the early warning signs of this is fatigue. Instead of brocolli, I would suggest you feed peas with the fish. They are a great source of vitamin B1 to balance out the thiaminase. :smile:

While this site is for turtles, it does state which fish do and do not contain thiaminase.


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## SuZQuzie (Nov 26, 2009)

RawFedDogs said:


> I have seen that argument before. It's somethin about biotin in the egg white that does something harmful in the body. I think its an old myth. I feed my dogs whole eggs at least once a week.


A protein found in egg whites, avidin, it known to "tie up" biotin and cause biotin deficiency. Biotin deficiency is known to cause cracking foot pads and poor hair quality. If you don't see those in your dogs, don't worry about it. If you do, cut back on the eggs.


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## malluver1005 (Nov 15, 2009)

SuZQuzie said:


> The following is irrelevant to the OP:
> 
> I saw, malluver, that you mentioned feeding vegetables with fish. While this isn't true for all fish, many fish contain thiaminase, an enzyme that breaks down thiamine or vitamin B1. A diet with enough thiaminase-containing fish in it can result in B1 deficiency; one of the early warning signs of this is fatigue. Instead of brocolli, I would suggest you feed peas with the fish. They are a great source of vitamin B1 to balance out the thiaminase. :smile:
> 
> While this site is for turtles, it does state which fish do and do not contain thiaminase.


This site for thiaminase was very helpful. Thanks. He gets salmon, so he's ok. As for peas, why instead of broccoli? I thought they were considered bad?


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## SuZQuzie (Nov 26, 2009)

malluver1005 said:


> This site for thiaminase was very helpful. Thanks. He gets salmon, so he's ok. As for peas, why instead of broccoli? I thought they were considered bad?


Broccoli is just fine; I only suggested peas as a natural supplement for thiamine to balance out the effects of thiaminase found in some fish.

Who said peas were bad? Why?  I fed my dogs peas for years and they survived. But then again, I have no problem with potatoes, aka DEADLY NIGHTSHADE!!! Spooky stuff. :tongue:


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## malluver1005 (Nov 15, 2009)

SuZQuzie said:


> Broccoli is just fine; I only suggested peas as a natural supplement for thiamine to balance out the effects of thiaminase found in some fish.
> 
> Who said peas were bad? Why?  I fed my dogs peas for years and they survived. But then again, I have no problem with potatoes, aka DEADLY NIGHTSHADE!!! Spooky stuff. :tongue:


I believe there is a thread on here that is titled "things you shouldn't feed a dog." And peas is on the list...

I didn't believe half of that stuff anyway...


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## SuZQuzie (Nov 26, 2009)

malluver1005 said:


> I believe there is a thread on here that is titled "things you shouldn't feed a dog." And peas is on the list...
> 
> I didn't believe half of that stuff anyway...


Glad to hear it. :biggrin:


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## claybuster (Dec 18, 2008)

SuZQuzie said:


> Broccoli is just fine; I only suggested peas as a natural supplement for thiamine to balance out the effects of thiaminase found in some fish.
> 
> *Who said peas were bad? Why? *  I fed my dogs peas for years and they survived. But then again, I have no problem with potatoes, aka DEADLY NIGHTSHADE!!! Spooky stuff. :tongue:


Me of course! Why? Just like the alfalfa, toxins...and yes the potatoes for the same reasons. I'll eat these myself obviously, but I really do avoid feeding any ingredients like that to my dog.


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## SuZQuzie (Nov 26, 2009)

claybuster said:


> Me of course! Why? Just like the alfalfa, toxins...and yes the potatoes for the same reasons. I'll eat these myself obviously, but I really do avoid feeding any ingredients like that to my dog.


Oooo! Toxins! Which ones? Why are those bad?


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## Maab (Nov 9, 2009)

One thing is to say that potatoes and alike are not necessary, but toxics? Where did you get the info?

It's interesting to see so many different points of view.


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## whiteleo (Sep 7, 2008)

Actually thinking back, I did once hear that raw potatoes were toxic to dogs, I think something to do with the eyes? Don't know if what I heard was true or a myth.


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## DaneMama (Jun 27, 2008)

claybuster said:


> Me of course! Why? Just like the alfalfa, toxins...and yes the potatoes for the same reasons. I'll eat these myself obviously, but I really do avoid feeding any ingredients like that to my dog.



But useless white rice is ideal though right?


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## oakley (Nov 18, 2009)

I feed Oakley bananas and apples and celery as treats... mostly just because she doesnt like the healthy dog biscuits I bought. I baked liver for treats and she loves those but its too rich to let her have too many. I plan to borrow my brothers dehydrator to make some lil chicken bits for her.


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## claybuster (Dec 18, 2008)

Maab said:


> One thing is to say that potatoes and alike are not necessary, but toxics? Where did you get the info?
> 
> It's interesting to see so many different points of view.


I got that info from my biochemist (non affiliated with grant money coming from Purina or Hills justifying cheap inappropriate ingredients).


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## claybuster (Dec 18, 2008)

whiteleo said:


> Actually thinking back, I did once hear that raw potatoes were toxic to dogs, I think something to do with the eyes? Don't know if what I heard was true or a myth.


You heard correctly.


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## jdatwood (Apr 13, 2009)

claybuster said:


> I got that info from my biochemist (non affiliated with grant money coming from Purina or Hills justifying cheap inappropriate ingredients).


Was that from your biochemist trying to sell you dog food?


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## claybuster (Dec 18, 2008)

SuZQuzie said:


> Oooo! Toxins! Which ones? Why are those bad?






The following ingredients commonly found in dog food today that contain toxins and should be avoided are:

*soybeans, beet pulp, sorghum, tomato pomace, alfalfa, peas, beans, oats, potatoes, garlic, and yucca.* 

Why...sub-lethal doses of poisons delivered over time and the direct connection to allergies in dogs.

And why won't you find that info in your Veterinary studies? Because the industry will protect its interests to justify the cheaper profitable omnivore ingredients for carnivore dog. Their interests are to stock holders and will sacrifice your dogs long term health and nutrition for the sake of the almighty dollar. And they will make sure test results and studies will yield the results they want to see, even if the have to do in 100 times over.


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## claybuster (Dec 18, 2008)

danemama08 said:


> But useless white rice is ideal though right?


Ideal because it is a non-allergenic ingredient for dogs. White Rice is much better than Brown Rice. Brown rice contains gluten which can damage the dogs ability to absorb nutrients.


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## SuZQuzie (Nov 26, 2009)

You didn't answer my question: which toxins? As in what specific compound in those vegetable materials is toxic?


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## claybuster (Dec 18, 2008)

SuZQuzie said:


> You didn't answer my question: which toxins? As in what specific compound in those vegetable materials is toxic?


saponins and phaseolins


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## claybuster (Dec 18, 2008)

jdatwood said:


> Was that from your biochemist trying to sell you dog food?


No, he never tried to sell me anything, I found them and I'm glad I did.


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## jdatwood (Apr 13, 2009)

claybuster said:


> No, he never tried to sell me anything, I found them and I'm glad I did.


You missed the point... you're still being fed marketing material even if YOU found the company. It's in his best interest to tell you things that would make you want to buy the food. 

Just take a step back and think about it...


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## SuZQuzie (Nov 26, 2009)

claybuster said:


> saponins and phaseolins


I love how their pages and pages written about both of those proteins by a *MR.* Robert Adaby.

Saponin is a storage protein found in legumes. It can be an eye and lung irritant in its pure, crystalline form. No toxicities shown in clinical or laboratory studies.

Phaseolins. Which one? There are dozens! Once again, found in mostly legumes. Medicagenic acid has been shown to reduce growth rates in simple monogastrics and, therefore, alfalfa intake should be limited. Some phaseolins are found in spinach and oats but they actually ASSIST in digestion by increasing uptake of calcium. 

So what about potatoes, spinach, sorghum, tomato pumace, oats, and yucca.

Yes, alliums are bad for dogs because they cause hemolytic anemia due to Heinz bodies damaging red blood cells.


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## claybuster (Dec 18, 2008)

SuZQuzie said:


> I love how their pages and pages written about both of those proteins by a *MR.* Robert Adaby.
> 
> Saponin is a storage protein found in legumes. It can be an eye and lung irritant in its pure, crystalline form. No toxicities shown in clinical or laboratory studies.
> 
> ...


Bloat is only a mystery to veterinary science. Saponins are the leading contributor to bloat and they are found all that I listed and they no way assist in digestion for dogs. These are in fact dangerous ingredients for dogs.
You added spinach to the list and I would never consider feeding that to my dog either. What they are is a direct connection to allergies and worse, like death from bloat. The science you are learning will defend these profitable ingredients. I don't buy into that science, it is misleading, skewed, and dangerous for dogs. You can defend these ingredients all you want. I will not believe you and choose NOT to feed any of those to my dogs.

There is no need to 'uptake' calcium in dogs. There is a need to uptake animal source proteins and fat so tissue growth can keep up with the rate of bone growth. Your science thinks it's better to limit food intake to slow down growth so tissue can then keep up. Feeding animal source proteins and fat in abundance to grow tissue is better than starving the animal to slow down growth. Restricting food intake to slow down growth is criminal and not an innocent mistake. It supports agenda which is maximize profit with cheap inappropriate ingredients for dogs like the dangerous ones listed prior.


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## DaneMama (Jun 27, 2008)

claybuster said:


> Ideal because it is a non-allergenic ingredient for dogs. White Rice is much better than Brown Rice. Brown rice contains gluten which can damage the dogs ability to absorb nutrients.


But just like lawn weeks (alfalfa and marigold) it is 100% species inappropriate right? Therefore making Abady products species inappropriate...


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## claybuster (Dec 18, 2008)

SuZQuzie said:


> I love how their pages and pages written about both of those proteins by a *MR.* Robert Adaby.


Oh BTW, that would be Dr. Robert Abady (RIP).


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## claybuster (Dec 18, 2008)

danemama08 said:


> But just like lawn weeks (alfalfa and marigold) it is 100% species inappropriate right? Therefore making Abady products species inappropriate...


Non-allergenic white rice will not harm your dog. Species inappropriate ingredients can and will harm your dog. It does not matter to me how hard you and your boyfried relentlessly and constantly feel the need to bash this product that you've never tried or had no desire to try. You will never change my opinion. Thanks.


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## DaneMama (Jun 27, 2008)

claybuster said:


> Non-allergenic white rice will not harm your dog. Species inappropriate ingredients can and will harm your dog. It does not matter to me how hard you and your boyfried relentlessly and constantly feel the need to bash this product that you've never tried or had no desire to try. You will never change my opinion. Thanks.


I just think it's funny that you relentlessly say that dogs are carnivores but choose to feed and support a species inappropriate diet...one that is made for an omnivore. And also put down other kibbles that are much more appropriate to feed a dog, one that is grainless altogether!

You have to remember that we would be "bashing" any food that is not a quality food, one that can compare to the big dog food industry brands.


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## claybuster (Dec 18, 2008)

danemama08 said:


> I just think it's funny that you relentlessly say that dogs are carnivores but choose to feed and support a species inappropriate diet...one that is made for an omnivore. And also put down other kibbles that are much more appropriate to feed a dog, one that is grainless altogether!
> 
> You have to remember that we would be "bashing" any food that is not a quality food, one that can compare to the big dog food industry brands.


You don't understand what constitutues a species appropriate diet. You think by being grainless it is perfectly fine to swap plant fiber for grain fiber.
I think you're nuts. thanks


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## claybuster (Dec 18, 2008)

You look at one diet and see White Rice. You look at another diet and see:

sun-cured alfalfa, chicory root, dehydrated organic kelp, pumpkin, carrots, spinach, turnip greens, apples, cranberries, saskatoon berries, black currants, , psyllium, licorice root, angelica root, fenugreek, marigold flowers, sweet fennel, peppermint leaf, chamomile flowers, dandelion, summer savory, rosemary.

I'll take the plain and simple non-allergenic white rice over the plethora of species inappropriate allergy causing ingredients any day of the week. We are all free to our opinions, I have mine and you have yours. You can call the diet with white rice crap and the other an excellent choice and species appropriate if you choose but I will never believe that.


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## SuZQuzie (Nov 26, 2009)

:sigh:

When will you stop blaming my schooling for everything I say? Quite honestly, most of the information I have learned comes from resources 100% unaffiliated with my school or their "financial backers." By the way, who are those financial backers? Right now, the amount of time I get to spend in class is cut by 10% simply because of a complete lack of financial backing. 

That is perfectly fine if you choose to not feed those items to your dogs. Really, I don't care what you or anyone else feeds their animals. If asked, I will offer advice and recommendations. You will never, ever find me saying anything along the lines of "you are doing physical harm to your dog by giving them this" when it isn't true. Onions, yes. Grapes, yes. 

It is not correct to claim that something is toxic and dangerous to a dog when there is absolutely nothing to support that claim.

Why would a doctor say he wasn't one? 



> A Scientific Study of Potential Risks Associated With Feeding
> Saponin-Containing Ingredients
> An Article by *Mr. *Robert Abady. President, Abady Dog Food Co. Ltd. Poughkeepsie, N.Y. 12601 USA. Ph. 1-845-473-1900


Saponins - a danger


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## DaneMama (Jun 27, 2008)

claybuster said:


> You don't understand what constitutues a species appropriate diet. You think by being grainless it is perfectly fine to swap plant fiber for grain fiber.
> I think you're nuts. thanks


Why am I nuts? I don't feed kibble. Plain and simple. I don't feed grains or veggies in any way, shape or form. I feed a biologically correct diet that is the next most accurate diet when compared to a whole prey diet. A kibble/granular diet with white rice in it is far from ideal.

You do on the other hand, even if you call it "granular" but I have really no concept of what that means. When I hear that, it screams "processed" and "inappropriate" because of the ingredients. So I think if someone doesn't understand what a species appropriate diet is when it comes to dogs and cats...its you :biggrin:


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## RawFedDogs (Jun 16, 2008)

"Granular" is kibble that wasn't formed into the little nuggets. It's a course powder.


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## DaneMama (Jun 27, 2008)

RawFedDogs said:


> "Granular" is kibble that wasn't formed into the little nuggets. It's a course powder.


So, in essence its they are one and the same :wink:


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## claybuster (Dec 18, 2008)

danemama08 said:


> Why am I nuts? I don't feed kibble. Plain and simple. I don't feed grains or veggies in any way, shape or form. I feed a biologically correct diet ...


Because of this, a reflection of what you feel would be best for carnivores:



> I just think it's funny that you relentlessly say that dogs are carnivores but choose to feed and support a species inappropriate diet...one that is made for an omnivore. And also put down other kibbles that are *much more appropriate to feed a dog, one that is grainless altogether*!


I'll say it again, I think you're nuts! I know your feeding an outstanding diet for your pets, no argument there. But if you really think all those ingredient mentioned are more appropriate than just white rice....yes, I'm sorry but I think you've flipped your rocker. Do you really feel grainless is great for dogs even though they just went to plant fiber instead? This has nothing to do with what you feed, this has to do with what you think. Honest, I won't come back at you with a negative. If you feel the fiber for plants make an acceptable option instead of grain, that is more appropriate, I can accept that and won't even comment back, promise. I may ask you why you feel the fiber from plants would be more appropriate but no more negatives...I'm trying to turn over a new leaf....no pun intended...haha...get it?


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## claybuster (Dec 18, 2008)

SuZQuzie said:


> :sigh:
> 
> When will you stop blaming my schooling for everything I say? Quite honestly, most of the information I have learned comes from resources 100% unaffiliated with my school or their "financial backers." By the way, who are those financial backers? Right now, the amount of time I get to spend in class is cut by 10% simply because of a complete lack of financial backing.
> 
> ...


Ok, I stop blaming your schooling on everything you say! I think Purina and Hills do exert a ton of influence and that influence travels far, even into education at the schools. After all, they were the first ones to make a big name in selling dog food, they conducted the early studies, they passed those studies on...no?

My vet graduated from Tufts University. He's a great guy and pretty sharp, however I do not accept the feeding and nutritional advice coming out of his office. You should see the diets the push their to the clients. I read the panel once on the stuff he sells and I was shocked. Really looks like terrible stuff. I think its a scam to keep you just coming back for more office visits!
I really just go there only for the state law shot (rabies). In fact they're due soon for the shots. I think I will pass on the Yorkie this time around. 17 years, I think he's all done with the shots.

I know it bucks the trend. Bloat is a mystery, allergies just happen, this and that is a genetic, etc. I read the Abady articles and the stuff just makes sense to me. These problems that face dogs today are food caused. Breakdowns that occur across breed lines, across the country, what other explanation can it be other than food caused? It just makes perfect sense to me. They (the big names) are obviously in it to make money, if they can offer up ingredients that are less costly to make more profit I think they will do so. There is no HD in the wild. There is no bloat in the wild. And along with a whole host of other problems that just don't exist in the wild, man created the problems with the diets. Abady is a extremely holistic in principle in the hopes to achieve optimum nutrition though what enters the body and the avoidance of common breakdowns. People love to criticize the HD stuff. Even that makes sense to me. There is no cure...all you can do is eliminate it for happening all together. I said it before, it's not rocket science, properly nourished bitches will yield pups with text book perfect hips each and every time. When optimum nutrition continues with the line, those pups in turn yield pups with again with perfect hips...just like in nature. It is not about curing, it is about eliminating it so it becomes a non-issue. Yea I know it is all crazy weird stuff, but its what I think makes sense most sense, and it is working for my dogs.

No not trying to sell you anything, but I know some Boxers as well thriving on Abady feeds. This woman with a Boxer grabbed the last box on me a few years back and I had like one day of food left! I was 5 minutes too late and had to scramble to find a different supplier. I was pissed!

I noted you put in bold type Mr. Abady in one of your posts. I had also seen it as Dr. Abady in some websites, that's why I included that. I have also read he was a veterinarian so there are references to both on the web, Dr. and Mr.

You look fantastic up on that horse BTW, I watched your video. My daughter just started riding a few years back and she loves it! I must admit, as a parent it really scares me and I was very much opposed to the riding lessons. But she wants to do it, mom lets her do it, it scares the heck out of me (she already had to jump off once), it makes me soooo nervous.


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## claybuster (Dec 18, 2008)

RawFedDogs said:


> "Granular" is kibble that wasn't formed into the little nuggets. It's a course powder.



I know what you think, but I think you're off base. It's too moist with oils, and would never hold together. My current granular is 31/28 at 876 cals per cup, 1% fiber. It would never hold together in kibble form. Yes, Abady does make a kibble diet if that is what people prefer (no fish smell), but it is obviously not nearly close to the strength of the granular mixes. It is thicker in consistency than a powder and more like a course oily sand texture. I know people that shape into ball with their hands much like meat ball, so it is easier for the dog to pick up. I don't bother to shape it, just pack it into a can and make a sand castle out of it in the bowl.

Alright, I have to stop talking about this, I need a break for a bit. Scrabble and Yacht on Facebook! Talk to you next year. Give the dogs a pat on the head for me.


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## SuZQuzie (Nov 26, 2009)

claybuster said:


> Alright, I have to stop talking about this, I need a break for a bit. Scrabble and Yacht on Facebook! Talk to you next year. Give the dogs a pat on the head for me.


Does he do that often?


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## RawFedDogs (Jun 16, 2008)

CB, Sometimes you are completely off the wall. Other times you make sense, and still other times you seem to just not have thought it through far enough. You tend to want to blame every thing in diet. There are problem caused by other things. My 9 1/2yo Dane has HD. She has been fed prey model raw since she was 2 years old. The vet thinks her HD was caused by an accident because it is only in one hip.



claybuster said:


> There is no HD in the wild.


I think in general HD is a genetic disease caused by breeders attempting to "improve the breed". Thats the reason there is none in the wild.



> There is no bloat in the wild.


There are no Great Danes in the wild (breed most likely to bloat). there are no akitas in the wild. There are none of those high incidence of bloat breeds in the wild.



> And along with a whole host of other problems that just don't exist in the wild, man created the problems with the diets.


I agree that the greatest majority of health problems today's dogs have are because of this relatively new fad diet that is the craze now (kibble). Unfortunately for the dog world, it's gonna be with is forever.



> I said it before, it's not rocket science, properly nourished bitches will yield pups with text book perfect hips each and every time.


I think that is stretching things. I used to know several breeders who has as many as 5 generations of prey model raw fed dogs. I don't remember discussing HD with them or the incidence of HD in their lines. But then you don't find many breeders who will admit that there is HD in their lines. :smile: I wish I still knew how to contact them.


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## RawFedDogs (Jun 16, 2008)

claybuster said:


> My current granular is 31/28 at 876 cals per cup, 1% fiber.


It has that many calories because the volume of the food in a cup is much larger. There is a lot of air between the nuggets when you fill a cup with regular kibble. With the "powder" there is MUCH MUCH MUCH less air in the cup.



> It would never hold together in kibble form.


Yes, it would ... you just said a few sentences below here that you can mold it into balls. It sticks together that well. If you can mold it into balls you can mold it into kibble nuggets. If it holds together that well there must be A LOT of rice in it.



> It is thicker in consistency than a powder and more like a course oily sand texture.


Well, I said "course" :smile:



> Alright, I have to stop talking about this, I need a break for a bit. Scrabble and Yacht on Facebook! Talk to you next year. Give the dogs a pat on the head for me.


You gonna be gone that long? I'm leaving Fri morn on a trip. Coming back Sun evening. Guess the board will be a pretty quiet place, huh? :smile:


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## malluver1005 (Nov 15, 2009)

So, all the animal that are in the wild, wolves and stuff, don't ever bloat...?


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## SuZQuzie (Nov 26, 2009)

Regarding hip dysplasia, or really any other debilitating disease, of course it's not in the wild. If an animal was in the wild with HD, it would die during the early stages. Can't catch your own food? Can't run from danger? Can't maintain your rank in the pack? Tough.

I was assisting in a study of at a zoo yesterday and they have a 20-year-old Serval there. The life expectancy in the wild for Servals is 13. This Serval has horrible arthritis and is 100% blind in one eye and can only see shadows in the other. She is wild born. If she was in the wild, she would have died yeeeeaaarrsss ago. But, she's in captivity so we can assist her to live much longer than she would otherwise.


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## SuZQuzie (Nov 26, 2009)

malluver1005 said:


> So, all the animal that are in the wild, wolves and stuff, don't ever bloat...?


How would one know? One can't. It probably does happen, but one wouldn't see a wolf with bloat walking around for very long. :wink:


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## malluver1005 (Nov 15, 2009)

I never thought of that. Very true indeed...hmmmm :wink:


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## claybuster (Dec 18, 2008)

RawFedDogs said:


> It has that many calories because the volume of the food in a cup is much larger. There is a lot of air between the nuggets when you fill a cup with regular kibble. With the "powder" there is MUCH MUCH MUCH less air in the cup.


JUST WHEN I THOUGHT I WAS OUT, THEY PULL ME BACK IN!

Was really my intent to take a break from all the Abady talk; I'm sure you all had quite enough of me, and my prose, and my thoughts, etc., but this one is too important to let go by. I refer to some Abady text in the article concerning 'Itching':



> While the percentage of fiber in most dry rations appear to be innocent enough, being in the three to five percent range when *analyzed correctly is actually monstrous*. The materials from which fiber is derived such as beet pulp, tomato pomace or cellulose flour are light and occupy a large volume, somewhat *like comparing the volume occupied by a quantity of lead to an identical amount of feathers.* While the 5% fiber content , for instance, represents 22.7 grams by weight out of a possible 454 grams or 1 lb of food, the amount of beet pulp that is required in order to deliver the 22.7 grams of fiber is 141.87 (by weight) *or more than one third of the ration.* The volume occupied can be greater than the volume occupied by all the food ingredients in the ration combined. *This enormous volume of indigestible cellulose not only has a devastating effect on the nutrition of the ration but is also the direct cause of probably a large if not the largest number of allergies.*


You see, what appears on the surface in comparison, a cup of Granular to a cup of kibble, the real cup of lead is in that kibble, not the granular. The fact that in itself is too weak in fat and animal source proteins to deliver the calories to begin with, when the hydration process starts to take place inside the stomach, the kibble actually represents a much larger amount of volume than that of the granular food.


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## RawFedDogs (Jun 16, 2008)

Apples - Oranges

Smoke & Mirrors


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## SuZQuzie (Nov 26, 2009)

claybuster said:


> You see, what appears on the surface in comparison, a cup of Granular to a cup of kibble, the real cup of lead is in that kibble, not the granular. The fact that in itself is too weak in fat and animal source proteins to deliver the calories to begin with, when the hydration process starts to take place inside the stomach, the kibble actually represents a much larger amount of volume than that of the granular food.


That... doesn't... make ANY sense.


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## DaneMama (Jun 27, 2008)

On the genetic diseases like HD, it takes two sets of DNA to make a puppy...so...wouldn't the sire of the puppy need to be fed a quality food to eliminate the disease?


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