# Thin Fur



## BoxerParty (Nov 9, 2011)

So, as I've mentioned before, Malcolm lost a bunch of weight over Xmas (he was 53 lbs, lost 8 lbs). The weight is coming back on, and he looks otherwise healthy (SUPER shiny coat and well-muscled - I've attached a pic!) but his fur on this legs and belly is noticeably thin.

He did have demodex in early fall, but has since had two negative skin scrapings, so I don't think that's the problem. Also, the hair loss doesn't isn't patchy like demodex - it's generalized thinning rather than spots of baldness.

Is it possible that something is missing from his diet that I should add? He's currently eating chicken quarters (skin on) and turkey necks/breast, and we're going to add duck in shortly. I have both fish (herring, sardines, salmon) and venison/moose that I could add (but don't want to rush proteins, obviously). Any thoughts?



Handsome, shiny and muscular Malcolm! (with bonus Lila :wink: )


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## whiteleo (Sep 7, 2008)

Have you added in a fish oil supplement to his diet?


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## naturalfeddogs (Jan 6, 2011)

How much of the fish has he been eating? Maybe you could add some fish oil?


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## naturalfeddogs (Jan 6, 2011)

​Dang! LOL! Whiteleo you beat me to it! LOL!


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## BoxerParty (Nov 9, 2011)

No fish oil. I have some capsules I could give him...or I could feed him the fish.


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## naturalfeddogs (Jan 6, 2011)

Oil capsules are fine. Thats what I use.


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## DaneMama (Jun 27, 2008)

I'd give them both :thumb:

Also how much red meat does he usually get in your rotation?


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

he may well need more fat...and fish and red meat.


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## BoxerParty (Nov 9, 2011)

DaneMama said:


> I'd give them both :thumb:
> 
> Also how much red meat does he usually get in your rotation?


Will do!

Red meat hasn't been added yet (we started the transition over after Xmas since both got all digestively out of sorts while I was away). They seem to be doing reasonably well, so I could add in some of the venison/moose that I have if that would help.


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

BoxerParty said:


> Will do!
> 
> Red meat hasn't been added yet (we started the transition over after Xmas since both got all digestively out of sorts while I was away). They seem to be doing reasonably well, so I could add in some of the venison/moose that I have if that would help.


i remember you had had some problems...

have you added pork yet? 

because with your dogs, i'd be adding red meats a finger nail size at a time...and slowly increase....

it took close to two years before my dogs finally 'got' it.....some of it was me, and some was aging dog, and some i blame squarely on the pug, for he gets all the blame and doesn't care.

now, my dogs are gaw-jus and it'll be two years in march i think.


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## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

Before we started raw, Snorkels had a very nice coat - after we started raw, alot of her coat fell out. She was bald on her ears, her tail, tummy, rear end and hind legs.

She looked pretty funny, frankly. Then it all started growing back in. Now she has a great coat again - I don't know why it fell out or why it grew back. But even her tummy now has some hair on it.


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## BoxerParty (Nov 9, 2011)

magicre said:


> i remember you had had some problems...
> 
> have you added pork yet?
> 
> ...



We're not going to do pork. It's not affordable here (pricier than beef), and I have a thing about pigs. I think my mother read me "Charlotte's Web" one too many times as a child. :wink:

I'm happy to intro beef SUPER slowly as their next protein. I was going to do duck, but if the beef will be a better choice all-around, then I'm flexible!

In either case, I'll start giving both pups the fish oil caps.


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## twoisplenty (Nov 12, 2008)

I would also start to add in some red meats, very slowly of course  Your babies look a little leaner than what I like to see and could use a few lbs but I think you already know that. As mentioned it can take a while before you see new hair growth so I wouldnt really worry about it. Stick with what you are doing and it will all come together for you  I must admit they have some very shiney coats!


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## BoxerParty (Nov 9, 2011)

twoisplenty said:


> I would also start to add in some red meats, very slowly of course  Your babies look a little leaner than what I like to see and could use a few lbs but I think you already know that. As mentioned it can take a while before you see new hair growth so I wouldnt really worry about it. Stick with what you are doing and it will all come together for you  I must admit they have some very shiney coats!


Ok, red meat it is! I'll start it slowly this weekend - should I start with ~1oz per dog? (Malcolm eats ~1.5 lbs/day, Lila eats ~1 lb/day)

I totally agree - Both puppies are definitely thinner than I'd like. They were in perfect condition (in that thin, gangly boxer puppy sort of way) before Xmas:

















(These pics make it hard to see the "tuck", but it was there!)

Thanks for the compliments on their coats, twoisplenty! I'm SO pleased with how healthy they look, especially Lila (that ginger coat is SO difficult to get shiny!) - a couple of people have commented to me that they seem to "glow", and I agree! YAY RAW! :clap:


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## twoisplenty (Nov 12, 2008)

If you are adding in Venison I would do that very very slowly. I made the mistake of feeding an entire morning meal of venison and my dogs paid for it. They had horrible stomach upset and nasty stinky gas. If I were to do it over again I would do 25% venison to 75% chicken legs or backs.


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## BoxerParty (Nov 9, 2011)

I have some boneless beef I could add also - this might be better than the venison from a fat perspective, _n'est-ce pas_? 

I was thinking of doing a normal-sized meal, with 1 oz of beef and the rest something bony like chicken necks (e.g. for Lila, 1 oz beef + 7 oz chicken necks). When they are ok on that for several days moving to 2 oz/meal (2 oz beef + 6 oz chicken necks) until they can handle a good-sized portion. Would that make sense?


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## DaneMama (Jun 27, 2008)

Since you're still in the transition phase I wouldn't worry too much about a thin coat as it can be part of the process. By all means don't rush things, or feel that you have to since that'll just lead to more potential problems. Keep us all posted on his progress!


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## BoxerParty (Nov 9, 2011)

Mini-update: We started a tiny amount of beef last night. (I was planning to start duck, but went with the beef instead - at any rate, we were ready for a new "richer" protein). Each dog got about 0.75oz, and both are doing well today - no stool problems or vomiting! We will stick with this small amount for several more days, then gradually increase.


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

BoxerParty said:


> Mini-update: We started a tiny amount of beef last night. (I was planning to start duck, but went with the beef instead - at any rate, we were ready for a new "richer" protein). Each dog got about 0.75oz, and both are doing well today - no stool problems or vomiting! We will stick with this small amount for several more days, then gradually increase.


do it for a week....unless that's what you mean by several days...

i'm very glad so far, they have had no problems.

i'm not sure i would feed it every day in the beginning....but i can only go by my dogs.....their transition was touch and go with almost every protein. 

venison heart was our waterloo. and now they can eat two or three meals of it without bone. they make me so proud.


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## BoxerParty (Nov 9, 2011)

magicre said:


> do it for a week....unless that's what you mean by several days...
> 
> i'm very glad so far, they have had no problems.
> 
> ...


Yes, I was planning on a week plus before making any changes.  I'm adding the cube of beef to their regular turkey meals (neck + boneless breast), so they're getting beef in one out of every three meals (they eat twice a day, so for this week they would have beef today, Tuesday, Wednesday, Friday, Saturday).

The transition has been very interesting so far, because both of my dogs have reacted quite differently.

Malcolm always did poorly on kibble, and was my impetus for the switch. He took to raw like a champ, and I think that literally ALL of the issues we've encountered with him during the transition have been related to enhanced meat. (No meat I've found has any nutritional info listed, so I could never be sure. I did, however, make some chicken broth with some of the quarters I had been feeding, and it was SALTY, so mystery solved, I think. :wink: )

Lila has taken longer to be able to digest bone completely - it was several weeks with her before there were no bone chunks in the stool.

As always, the biggest barrier we face is my patience (or lack thereof). :biggrin: I understand the value of taking it super slowly, though, so I will contain myself for their benefit.


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## BoxerParty (Nov 9, 2011)

magicre said:


> venison heart was our waterloo. and now they can eat two or three meals of it without bone. they make me so proud.


Also, now I'm gonna have "Waterloo" by ABBA stuck in my head for DAYS...thanks for that. :tongue:


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

BoxerParty said:


> Also, now I'm gonna have "Waterloo" by ABBA stuck in my head for DAYS...thanks for that. :tongue:


yeah, well, i aim to please :tongue:

personally, i think you're doing great. you've faced each barrier with humour and only a little fear.....so you're way ahead of the game.

i wanted mentors to be on 24/7 call, which they refused and i AM holding a grudge.....

i remember lying awake at night....just overthinking everything, which is my norm, so you can imagine.....what i put these guys through LOL.


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## whiteleo (Sep 7, 2008)

magicre said:


> do it for a week....unless that's what you mean by several days...
> 
> i'm very glad so far, they have had no problems.
> 
> ...


This is for re...I don't mean to hijack! I got a elk heart awhile back along with the liver, I thought it should be no big deal since the dogs get venison heart ALL the time....Can you say liquid poo! LOL


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

whiteleo said:


> This is for re...I don't mean to hijack! I got a elk heart awhile back along with the liver, I thought it should be no big deal since the dogs get venison heart ALL the time....Can you say liquid poo! LOL


i can say liquid poo and i have the dogs to prove it. LOL

combine liver with eggs and fish. same deal. my bad.

how did they like the elk heart and why didn't you mail me any


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## whiteleo (Sep 7, 2008)

magicre said:


> i can say liquid poo and i have the dogs to prove it. LOL
> 
> combine liver with eggs and fish. same deal. my bad.
> 
> how did they like the elk heart and why didn't you mail me any


They loved it! ALL GONE, sorry...About the same size as the venison hearts we get. Funny, when I give my dogs fish, egg, kelp and the shell they don't get liquid poo, just smelly gas!


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## BoxerParty (Nov 9, 2011)

magicre said:


> yeah, well, i aim to please :tongue:
> 
> personally, i think you're doing great. you've faced each barrier with humour and only a little fear.....so you're way ahead of the game.
> 
> ...


Thank you! The positive feedback means a lot to me - I only know one or two other raw feeders in "real life", so it's great to have the validation that some more "seasoned" folk think we're on the right track!  DFC has been such a wonderful resource!

I, too, am a MAJOR overthinker (I'm a law student with an MA in Anthropology, so the word you're looking for is probably "duh"). I try to remind myself that even if I make big huge bad catastrophic errors, raw is light years better than kibble, and that even if my dogs are still skinny, or still have the squirts on occasion, that their coats are shiny, their teeth are clean, their ears and eyes are clear, and their health is perfect. I could certainly do worse.


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

whiteleo said:


> They loved it! ALL GONE, sorry...About the same size as the venison hearts we get. Funny, when I give my dogs fish, egg, kelp and the shell they don't get liquid poo, just smelly gas!


believe me there was gas and lots of it. the liver was too much. that's why.

ok. returning to emma's thread LOL


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

BoxerParty said:


> Thank you! The positive feedback means a lot to me - I only know one or two other raw feeders in "real life", so it's great to have the validation that some more "seasoned" folk think we're on the right track!  DFC has been such a wonderful resource!
> 
> I, too, am a MAJOR overthinker (I'm a law student with an MA in Anthropology, so the word you're looking for is probably "duh"). I try to remind myself that even if I make big huge bad catastrophic errors, raw is light years better than kibble, and that even if my dogs are still skinny, or still have the squirts on occasion, that their coats are shiny, their teeth are clean, their ears and eyes are clear, and their health is perfect. I could certainly do worse.


i have been feeding raw...let's see...it'll be two years in march...and i JUST started a thread in the raw section about an experiment i was doing with bubba my pug.....that lasted for three months....because he was losing so much fur....

it's a learning curve....gotta tell you. getting my MD was easier than this. LOL


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## DeekenDog (Aug 29, 2011)

BoxerParty said:


> Yes, I was planning on a week plus before making any changes.  I'm adding the cube of beef to their regular turkey meals (neck + boneless breast), so they're getting beef in one out of every three meals (they eat twice a day, so for this week they would have beef today, Tuesday, Wednesday, Friday, Saturday).
> 
> The transition has been very interesting so far, because both of my dogs have reacted quite differently.
> 
> ...


This worries me. I think there must be different regulations here about enhanced meat. I've looked over the packaging many times on the cases of chicken quarters I buy. Deeken doesn't have a problem with them but I'm really hoping they are not enhanced.


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

DeekenDog said:


> This worries me. I think there must be different regulations here about enhanced meat. I've looked over the packaging many times on the cases of chicken quarters I buy. Deeken doesn't have a problem with them but I'm really hoping they are not enhanced.


on the packaging, what does it say?

if there is a nutritional panel, it will tell you how much sodium is in a four ounce serving. if it's less than 100 or it's foster farms, it is not enhanced...

tyson is enhanced...so do you know which brand it is?

that would worry me too because their kidneys can't take sustained eating of enhanced anything.


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## BoxerParty (Nov 9, 2011)

magicre said:


> on the packaging, what does it say?
> 
> if there is a nutritional panel, it will tell you how much sodium is in a four ounce serving. if it's less than 100 or it's foster farms, it is not enhanced...
> 
> ...


No nutritional panel. I think in most provinces of Canada, "single-ingredient" foods (produce, fresh meat, etc.) don't have to list nutritional info.


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

oh. emma. i meant to tell you something.

i spoke to the meat people at the store where i buy meat. and i asked from where the meat came and asked for literature because of the meat glue thing and all the other crap being talked about meat.

and he had all kinds of literature plus he had visited the ranch in oregon and he even knew the slaughtering took place in yakima....which is allegedly very clean, if he can be believed.


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## DeekenDog (Aug 29, 2011)

BoxerParty said:


> No nutritional panel. I think in most provinces of Canada, "single-ingredient" foods (produce, fresh meat, etc.) don't have to list nutritional info.


Yup there's no nutritional panel on any of the meat I buy. They tell you if its Grade A or organic or anything like that but not salt content anywhere.


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

DeekenDog said:


> Yup there's no nutritional panel on any of the meat I buy. They tell you if its Grade A or organic or anything like that but not salt content anywhere.


i'm surprised....is it possible to talk to the meat people who do the cutting and packaging or does it come all packaged...


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## DeekenDog (Aug 29, 2011)

magicre said:


> i'm surprised....is it possible to talk to the meat people who do the cutting and packaging or does it come all packaged...


It all comes packaged. I've tried looking online but haven't been able to find anything. I don't remember the brand right now but will post it next time I'm at the grocery store and can check.


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

DeekenDog said:


> It all comes packaged. I've tried looking online but haven't been able to find anything. I don't remember the brand right now but will post it next time I'm at the grocery store and can check.


melanie, i'd try to find out the brand, if, for no other reason, than putting to bed whether or not it's enhanced.

you're not so far from where we live.....what about suppliers....we have willamette in portland and plymouth poultry in seattle...do you have something like this where you are?

it's such a shame you can't join our co op...i doubt they'd let you over the border with what you can get from the list.


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