# The Verdict is In



## DaneMama (Jun 27, 2008)

And all of our dogs are in excellent health...officially! Had blood work drawn on all the mongrels the other day just to check things out and things came back looking great. Below are pictures of the results.

Akasha's results. BUN/Creatinine ratio is high, but that is normal for raw fed dogs.










Emmy's results. CPK is low, which is just fine because CPK is a muscle enzyme and if it were high then it would indicate muscle deterioration/destruction. 










Shiloh's results. Again, CPK is low...nothin' to worry about. Her neutrophils (a kind of white blood cell) is slightly elevated but not enough to worry about.


----------



## luvMyBRT (Mar 8, 2010)

Awesome news!!! :becky: Go raw!


----------



## BrownieM (Aug 30, 2010)

Interesting! So if someone were to have blood drawn on their raw fed dog and the bun/creatine ratio was high, BUT the vet didn't know they were raw fed, would the vet be concerned? And what does a high bun/creatine ratio reflect, usually? Finally, why do raw fed dogs have high bun/creatine ratios?


----------



## RawFedDogs (Jun 16, 2008)

BrownieM said:


> Finally, why do raw fed dogs have high bun/creatine ratios?


I'm not sure they do. I have owned 4 raw fed dogs and none of their bun/reatine levels were any different than kibble fed dogs. I have heard what Natalie said from several different sources but I can't confirm it by my dogs.


----------



## DaneMama (Jun 27, 2008)

BrownieM said:


> Interesting! So if someone were to have blood drawn on their raw fed dog and the bun/creatine ratio was high, BUT the vet didn't know they were raw fed, would the vet be concerned?


It depends a lot on many things. How high was the ratio? Was BUN or creatinine high alone or just the ratio high? How old is the animal? Does the animal have history of renal disease? Is the dog dehydrated? Is the dog normal and healthy otherwise? 



> And what does a high bun/creatine ratio reflect, usually?


Again this depends on the things I mentioned above. But generally it means the ratio of the two compared is high, which by itself doesn't tell you much. If you look at BUN and creatinine alone and they are both within normal ranges a high BUN/Creatinine ratio isn't something to worry about. A higher BUN alone can indicate the dog something as simple as dehydration. Obviously a REALLY high BUN is something to be concerned about. 



> Finally, why do raw fed dogs have high bun/creatine ratios?


Raw fed dogs have higher "kidney values" (meaning BUN and creatinine) because they eat an exclusively protein diet. Don't let this confuse you by meaning a HIGH protein diet because by weight, it's not because of water content. But the rest of the content of meats are proteins by majority. And since all we (PMR feeders) feed is whole meats...ergo an exclusive protein diet. It also tends to be higher because raw fed dogs don't drink as much water, since they get a lot of their daily moisture from their diet, and therefore are considered dehydrated (also the reason why the PCV or hematocrit is higher as well a lot of the time). 

Urine should be tested when a higher BUN or creatinine or ratio of the two shows up to make sure the urine is nice and concentrated, meaning the kidneys are doing their job!

ETA: it also depends on the individual, some dogs show higher levels and others do not.


----------



## BrownieM (Aug 30, 2010)

Ah, I see...I don't even know what BUN or creatine are, but it sounds like they have to do with kidneys.

So, Millie is due for her 1 year shots in May, I believe. I will have blood drawn then. Henry is due for his annual shots this month (which I will be skipping) but I am still going to bring him to the vet for yearly bloodwork. 

So, should I expect all levels to be normal? 

Another question - I am confused still, Natalie, by your saying that it is normal for raw fed dogs to have high BUN/creatine. It would just make me uneasy that a diet would raise these levels and that would be considered healthy. My uneasiness, though, probably stems from the fact that I really don't know what BUN and creatine are and their significance in the health of a dog. I have also never actually seen the results of my dog's bloodwork - only the "looks good for a dog of that age" from my vet. 

How often do you suggest raw feeders to bloodwork? Once yearly? Twice yearly?

ETA: I am also confused about what you mean about it being an exclusive protein diet yet not a high protein diet?:noidea:


----------



## BrownieM (Aug 30, 2010)

Okay, I may have answered my own question. This website: DogAware.com Health: Blood & Urine Tests for Dogs. Is helpful. It seems that perhaps an elevated BUN/Creatine is only elevated compared to dogs fed carbohydrate rich diets, which distorts the readings as well. Also, maybe an "average" BUN/Creatine ratio (which is our comparison point, from which we determine "elevated", right?) is not the same thing as "normal" or healthy. Am I right in my interpretation of this?


----------



## DaneMama (Jun 27, 2008)

You are exactly right, blood work values aren't based on the averages of countless dogs that are all fed raw. I'd venture to say that the values are all or nearly so based on kibble fed dogs. So a dog fed a raw diet is going to have some slightly different normal/healthy values than dogs on a kibble diet. 

What I mean by an exclusive protein diet is not a high protein diet is this: 

What is the primary component of a kibble dog's diet? Carbohydrates amongst various other ingredients protein being less than half that in most cases. 

What is the primary component of a raw fed dog's diet? Water, protein, fat and other minerals and vitamins naturally occurring in whole, unaltered food items

Since water composes approximately 70% of a raw fed dogs diet it's considered low protein. Take the water away and what you have left is nearly all protein. But since the water is there, the protein is "diluted" by default.


----------



## DaneMama (Jun 27, 2008)

BrownieM- make sure you don't feed a really rich meal the night before, fast your dogs overnight, have their blood drawn as early as possible in the day and try to keep your dogs as calm as possible beforehand (even stress can alter values to show up abnormal). This will get you the best results possible!


----------



## Angelwing (Feb 20, 2011)

That's excellent! So I want to get these tests done to my dog before I start feeding raw and then a year or so after that (and after that etc), what is this test called exactly? What does it look for (I can't read your results!)? How much is it (cost doesn't matter, just curious although it will vary in my country)?


----------



## jdatwood (Apr 13, 2009)

Pics are too small to read babe.. :wink:


----------



## MissusMac (Jan 6, 2011)

Awesome, thanks for sharing!

So do you feed exclusively PMR, meat, bones, and organ only (including fish and egg occasionally), or do you also supplement with other stuff?


----------



## DaneMama (Jun 27, 2008)

Angelwing said:


> That's excellent! So I want to get these tests done to my dog before I start feeding raw and then a year or so after that (and after that etc), what is this test called exactly? What does it look for (I can't read your results!)? How much is it (cost doesn't matter, just curious although it will vary in my country)?


I need to grab bigger copies of the pictures somehow...then you will be able to read them LOL

There are lots of different bloodwork tests that you can do. The one that I did for this was just a senior pre op panel (meaning pets would have this done before a surgery. But isn't restricted to just before surgeries). There are also adult and senior comprehensive tests that cover blood, urine and fecal tests. Typically "senior" panels are more thorough than just adult panels (the reference ranges don't change). I did senior pre-op panels because they are more thorough than an adult pre op but not as thorough as a comprehensive profile which is even more thorough (thorough meaning it tests for more blood values, you get more information). The more thorough the test the more expensive it is. I'd say bloodwork runs $50-150 depending on what you have done and where you live. Just tell your vet you'd like bloodwork done to check health, they'll know what you mean :wink:

MissusMac- all of our dogs are on an exclusively prey model raw diet. We follow the feeding plans/guidelines on our website linked in my signature below. Only supplements we give are fish oil caps and glucosamine/chondroitin


----------



## MissusMac (Jan 6, 2011)

DaneMama said:


> MissusMac- all of our dogs are on an exclusively prey model raw diet. We follow the feeding plans/guidelines on our website linked in my signature below. Only supplements we give are fish oil caps and glucosamine/chondroitin


That's what I thought. Is the glucosamine/chondroitin just for the danes hips?


----------



## DaneMama (Jun 27, 2008)

I actually don't give it to the Danes since they have good hips and no arthritis or anything. I give it to our two mutts who have terrible hip dysplasia! I like to give chicken feet as a joint supplement more than the pills since they are more natural.


----------



## DaneMama (Jun 27, 2008)

Edited first post with bigger photos :thumb:


----------



## MollyWoppy (Mar 19, 2010)

I've been meaning to get a blood test done on Mollie for some time now. Hopefully I'll find the time in the next month.
However, my friend just got one done on her 14yo pug and they said something was up with his kidney levels. They want to repeat the test again in a month. Of course she's freaking out.
I told her to get a copy of this latest test. And, that she needs to fast the dog before the next test to get a more accurate result. He's fed Orijen and looks absolutely great, rather porky though, although he is now on the big jenny craig.
How long do you reckon she should fast him for? Is 12 hours ok or would it be more accurate if it was longer?
Thanks by the way for posting these results. I've often wished we had a post like this to refer back to, just so you know what is normal and what is not.


----------



## Northwoods10 (Nov 22, 2010)

Great news!!! Yay for healthy raw fed dogs!!


----------



## pandaparade (Dec 29, 2010)

DaneMama said:


> Only supplements we give are fish oil caps


Given Daily? 

Also... I am worried our blood work results will end up bad since it is almost time to check but should I not worry? We have been following the rules pretty much.


----------



## BrownieM (Aug 30, 2010)

I give fish oil every day. LOTS of it. WAY more than it says on the bottle. It says 3 pumps and I give like 6 or 7. But, no loose stools or gas so I figure no harm no foul!  My dogs don't even smell fishy!


----------



## BrownieM (Aug 30, 2010)

Speaking of which...I recently heard someone say that giving salmon oil will deplete vitamin e, so you must supplement with vit. e. Is this true? If so I am probably really depriving my dogs of E!


----------



## Angelwing (Feb 20, 2011)

DaneMama said:


> I need to grab bigger copies of the pictures somehow...then you will be able to read them LOL
> 
> There are lots of different bloodwork tests that you can do. The one that I did for this was just a senior pre op panel (meaning pets would have this done before a surgery. But isn't restricted to just before surgeries). There are also adult and senior comprehensive tests that cover blood, urine and fecal tests. Typically "senior" panels are more thorough than just adult panels (the reference ranges don't change). I did senior pre-op panels because they are more thorough than an adult pre op but not as thorough as a comprehensive profile which is even more thorough (thorough meaning it tests for more blood values, you get more information). The more thorough the test the more expensive it is. I'd say bloodwork runs $50-150 depending on what you have done and where you live. Just tell your vet you'd like bloodwork done to check health, they'll know what you mean :wink:
> 
> MissusMac- all of our dogs are on an exclusively prey model raw diet. We follow the feeding plans/guidelines on our website linked in my signature below. Only supplements we give are fish oil caps and glucosamine/chondroitin


Awesome, thanks! Also which kind of fish oil caps do you use?


----------



## jdatwood (Apr 13, 2009)

We just buy the Kirkland brand fish oil caps from Costco...


----------



## pandaparade (Dec 29, 2010)

Hmm Ok, I'll go get some then. Do I just squeeze it on his food and go by what the bottle reccomends a day? Sorry for all the questions, you guys are the best.


----------



## BrownieM (Aug 30, 2010)

pandaparade said:


> Hmm Ok, I'll go get some then. Do I just squeeze it on his food and go by what the bottle reccomends a day? Sorry for all the questions, you guys are the best.


With gel caps you can feed them a variety of ways. You can pierce the cap so the fish oil spills out and put it on their food. You can feed it to them as is - like a treat - if they will eat it. OR you can feed it in peanut butter or ground meat like a pill.

I have used both gel caps and liquid. I currently use Grizzly Salmon Oil from a bottle with a pump.


----------



## DaneMama (Jun 27, 2008)

We give the capsules like treats. The dogs pop them with their teeth and love it!

As far as the vitamin E thing, I'm not sure if that is true or not. I guess it would depend on the source(s)


----------



## tracydr (Feb 25, 2011)

I thought the vitamin E was added to preserve the fish oil?


----------



## pandaparade (Dec 29, 2010)

I "accidently" threw the capsule down on the floor and said "Oooohhh nooo Jasper please don't pick that up." He ran for the bedroom and down it went :biggrin1:


----------



## BrownieM (Aug 30, 2010)

tracydr said:


> I thought the vitamin E was added to preserve the fish oil?


It must depend on the fish oil. My fish oil is preserved with Rosemary.


----------



## dogfoodlover (Mar 13, 2011)

Way to go, a great testament to the prey model of raw feeding!


----------



## schtuffy (May 17, 2010)

BrownieM said:


> Speaking of which...I recently heard someone say that giving salmon oil will deplete vitamin e, so you must supplement with vit. e. Is this true? If so I am probably really depriving my dogs of E!


Brownie, I also use Grizzly at the moment. Most fish oils in capsule form for human consumption (ie. Costco brand) contain vitamin E. But in our case with the Grizzly, I supplement with an occasional little gel cap when I remember. I use Naturemade brand that you can find at Target or most grocery stores because it doesn't contain any soybean oil (not easy to find them without soy!). Once I'm done with my bottle I might switch to human capsules, in which case I will probably stop the vitamin E supplementation.

As for the bloodwork results, I saw this thread today and scheduled to have Louis' done in 2 weeks :biggrin:

ETA: Darn...totally forgot about the fasting thing and had his appointment scheduled for 5:45 pm, I can't really take him during the work day anyway though. Should I still fast from the previous night, or will feeding him a little bit before I go to work be ok? He tends to be a little bile puker, this one....


----------

