# Sticky  Tis' the season to poison our dogs.........



## ShanniBella

Laboratory studies of ingredients in seven popular flea and tick control products reveal adverse health effects in all animals tested. The effects of these well known and aggressively marketed products range from convulsions, body tremors and labored breathing to thyroid cancer, brain lesions, and liver and lung tumors. Yet TV commercials with trusty looking veterinarians pitch only the happy side of these products.

Which flea and tick pesticide are you using on your dog and/or cat? If your favorite treatment contains the active ingredient Fipronil, Imidacloprid, Methoprene, Permethrin, Pyriproxyfen or the inert ingredient Butyldydroxytoluene, Butylhydroxanisole, Carbitol, Ethanol, or Polyvinlpyrrplidone, you need to know about the not-so-happy side of these products as well.

If you think your veterinarian or local pet store would never sell you such a sinister poison, think again.

Advantage (Bayer Corporation), Adams Spot-On Flea & Tick Control (Farnam Pet Products), BioSpot Flea & Tick Control (Farnam Pet Products), Defend EXspot Treatment (Schering-Plough Animal Health), Frontline Top Spot (Merial Limited), Frontline Plus (Merial Limited), and Zodiac FleaTrol Spot On (Wellmark International) - all contain one or more of the aforementioned active or inert ingredients.

Toxicology and morbidity findings from these pesticide products were gathered over a decade of laboratory testing by the United States Environmental Protection Agency; Occupational Safety & Health Administration, U.S. Department of Labor; Extension Toxicology Network; Journal of Pesticide Reform; Pesticide Action Network North America and other sources, with additional information supplied by Material Safety Data Sheets.

Most testing was performed for the benefit of new product manufacturers in order to qualify for EPA registration. Scientists overdose laboratory animals to determine how much of the product will kill 50% of the test population. Information is then extrapolated and assumptions made that may apply to domestic animals and human beings.

According to laboratory tests, Fipronil (Frontline Top Spot and Frontline Plus) is a neurotoxin and suspected human cancer agent. Fipronil can cause liver toxicity, thyroid cancer, kidney damage, raised cholesterol, lack of coordination, labored breathing, miscarriages and stunted offspring.

Laboratory testing of Imidacloprid (Advantage) on mice, dogs and rats shows this insecticide to be neurotoxic to laboratory animals, also causing a breakdown of coordination, labored breathing, lesions of the thyroid, reduced birth weight, and increased birth defects.

The synthetic broad spectrum pyrethroid insecticide Permethrin (Adams Spot-on Flea & Tick Control; BioSpot Flea & Tick Control; and Defend EXspot Treatment) shows indications of being an endocrine disrupter and the cause of lung cancer and liver tumors in laboratory animals.

Methoprene and Pyriproxyfen (Zodiac FleaTrol Spot On; and BioSpot Flea & Tick Control) are known as insect growth regulators (IGR), both of which restrict the growth of fleas to the juvenile stage where reproduction is not possible. Laboratory testing reveals that Methoprene causes enlarged livers and degeneration of the kidneys.

Unfortunately, few people actually read EPA test results. Fewer still want to hear about the many laboratory test subjects (unwanted dogs and cats) killed during and after the studies in order to determine damage to specific systems and organs. But it only takes a few people with straightforward thinking to bring about change. Are you ready to stop this insanity? There are effective alternatives, as you know.

Today there are totally natural flea and tick remedies - completely harmless to kids, pets and the environment - made from pure botanical essential oils. Some natural products work fairly well, some don't, and some work much better than the toxic stuff!

The mode of action - the way these natural remedies kill fleas and ticks - is to disrupt the insect's ability to function by blocking a substance called octopamine. In nature, certain plants have developed a natural defense against bugs. These "octopamine blockers" in plants are extracted as oils and used as active ingredients. Octopamine is to an insect what adrenalin is to a human. When blocked from the system, the insect quickly dies. No muss, no fuss. Nobody gets hurt but the bug.

Please begin today to stop supporting the heartless laboratory testing of innocent animals, the insidious cover-up and rush to market of big business, and the unwitting harm we may be doing to our children, our pets, and our planet.

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/06/17/health/17pets.html
http://www.ehow.com/about_6304479_dangerous-flea-tick-treatments.html
How Safe is Your Flea and Tick Killer?
EPA Evaluation of Pet Spot-On Products: Analysis and Mitigation Plan | Pesticides | US EPA
PDF] Are "Spot-On" Flea Killers Safe?
Adobe PDF - View as html
18 | FEBRUARY 2002 Copyright© 2002, Belvoir Publications, Inc. TO SUBSCRIBE, CALL (800) 829-9165 BY KATHLEEN DUDLEY Are "Spot-On ...
www.apnm.org/publications/resources/fleachemfin.pdf


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## RCTRIPLEFRESH5

ShanniBella said:


> Laboratory studies of ingredients in seven popular flea and tick control products reveal adverse health effects in all animals tested. The effects of these well known and aggressively marketed products range from convulsions, body tremors and labored breathing to thyroid cancer, brain lesions, and liver and lung tumors. Yet TV commercials with trusty looking veterinarians pitch only the happy side of these products.
> 
> Which flea and tick pesticide are you using on your dog and/or cat? If your favorite treatment contains the active ingredient Fipronil, Imidacloprid, Methoprene, Permethrin, Pyriproxyfen or the inert ingredient Butyldydroxytoluene, Butylhydroxanisole, Carbitol, Ethanol, or Polyvinlpyrrplidone, you need to know about the not-so-happy side of these products as well.
> 
> If you think your veterinarian or local pet store would never sell you such a sinister poison, think again.
> 
> Advantage (Bayer Corporation), Adams Spot-On Flea & Tick Control (Farnam Pet Products), BioSpot Flea & Tick Control (Farnam Pet Products), Defend EXspot Treatment (Schering-Plough Animal Health), Frontline Top Spot (Merial Limited), Frontline Plus (Merial Limited), and Zodiac FleaTrol Spot On (Wellmark International) - all contain one or more of the aforementioned active or inert ingredients.
> 
> Toxicology and morbidity findings from these pesticide products were gathered over a decade of laboratory testing by the United States Environmental Protection Agency; Occupational Safety & Health Administration, U.S. Department of Labor; Extension Toxicology Network; Journal of Pesticide Reform; Pesticide Action Network North America and other sources, with additional information supplied by Material Safety Data Sheets.
> 
> Most testing was performed for the benefit of new product manufacturers in order to qualify for EPA registration. Scientists overdose laboratory animals to determine how much of the product will kill 50% of the test population. Information is then extrapolated and assumptions made that may apply to domestic animals and human beings.
> 
> According to laboratory tests, Fipronil (Frontline Top Spot and Frontline Plus) is a neurotoxin and suspected human cancer agent. Fipronil can cause liver toxicity, thyroid cancer, kidney damage, raised cholesterol, lack of coordination, labored breathing, miscarriages and stunted offspring.
> 
> Laboratory testing of Imidacloprid (Advantage) on mice, dogs and rats shows this insecticide to be neurotoxic to laboratory animals, also causing a breakdown of coordination, labored breathing, lesions of the thyroid, reduced birth weight, and increased birth defects.
> 
> The synthetic broad spectrum pyrethroid insecticide Permethrin (Adams Spot-on Flea & Tick Control; BioSpot Flea & Tick Control; and Defend EXspot Treatment) shows indications of being an endocrine disrupter and the cause of lung cancer and liver tumors in laboratory animals.
> 
> Methoprene and Pyriproxyfen (Zodiac FleaTrol Spot On; and BioSpot Flea & Tick Control) are known as insect growth regulators (IGR), both of which restrict the growth of fleas to the juvenile stage where reproduction is not possible. Laboratory testing reveals that Methoprene causes enlarged livers and degeneration of the kidneys.
> 
> Unfortunately, few people actually read EPA test results. Fewer still want to hear about the many laboratory test subjects (unwanted dogs and cats) killed during and after the studies in order to determine damage to specific systems and organs. But it only takes a few people with straightforward thinking to bring about change. Are you ready to stop this insanity? There are effective alternatives, as you know.
> 
> Today there are totally natural flea and tick remedies - completely harmless to kids, pets and the environment - made from pure botanical essential oils. Some natural products work fairly well, some don't, and some work much better than the toxic stuff!
> 
> The mode of action - the way these natural remedies kill fleas and ticks - is to disrupt the insect's ability to function by blocking a substance called octopamine. In nature, certain plants have developed a natural defense against bugs. These "octopamine blockers" in plants are extracted as oils and used as active ingredients. Octopamine is to an insect what adrenalin is to a human. When blocked from the system, the insect quickly dies. No muss, no fuss. Nobody gets hurt but the bug.
> 
> Please begin today to stop supporting the heartless laboratory testing of innocent animals, the insidious cover-up and rush to market of big business, and the unwitting harm we may be doing to our children, our pets, and our planet.


the only two products ive found that i'd be comfortable giving winston are
sentry natural defense
and ''bug offgarlic''

but ive heard sentry discolors hair so that's out
and ive heard garlic is horrible for dogs.....

the other product id use (capstar) isnt a preventative.


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## Scarlett_O'

This thread is EXACTLY why I only use DE for my boys and girls!!

Im SOOOO glad to have researched and found out about DE...as I HATED putting those nasty poisons on my babies...but they got fleas sooo bad because of our ID/OD cat!!(Who is THANKFULLY gone now!!!)


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## RCTRIPLEFRESH5

Scarlett_O' said:


> This thread is EXACTLY why I only use DE for my boys and girls!!
> 
> Im SOOOO glad to have researched and found out about DE...as I HATED putting those nasty poisons on my babies...but they got fleas sooo bad because of our ID/OD cat!!(Who is THANKFULLY gone now!!!)


what do DE, ID, and OD mean?

if DE is as good as u sat i might look into it


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## Scarlett_O'

RCTRIPLEFRESH5 said:


> what do DE, ID, and OD mean?
> 
> if DE is as good as u sat i might look into it


DE is Diatomaceous Earth(food grade only)....I believe there have been QUITE a few threads about it:smile: I dust it on them, feed a little to them and dust the out side with it....I havent seen a single flea this year, even with 3 dogs....last year with JUST the one cat going in and out side(Brody was indoor only last year) both cats AND Brody where COVERED in fleas if I didnt use something.....this year...Ive not seen a SINGLE flea!:smile:

ID/OD is indoor/outdoor!:wink: (I was on my phone, so went lazy, sorry!:tongue


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## Tobi

RCTRIPLEFRESH5 said:


> what do DE, ID, and OD mean?
> 
> if DE is as good as u sat i might look into it


diatomaceous earth

Let me google that for you


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## RCTRIPLEFRESH5

Tobi said:


> diatomaceous earth
> 
> Let me google that for you


i know what diatomeceous earth is, but i wasn't given enough info to find that out for google. i tried googling too, and i came to the conclusion it was a shampoo de-flea rofl.


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## newlndnfire

DE is used as a natural insect replant right? People put it in their gardens to keep ants and other bugs away. This is the DE that I know from a Horticulture class I took and my teacher told us to ALWAYS use a mask when spreading the stuff. It is shards of something (can't remember what) and it slices the bodies of the bugs which can also slice into your lungs. Of course, you would have to use a lot of it but still... I don't think I could ever use that on my dog. Is there something that changes my whole idea? Am I missing something? Haha. I saw DE advertised for that and I flinched thinking it would hurt the dogs so bad!


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## Scarlett_O'

newlndnfire said:


> DE is used as a natural insect replant right? People put it in their gardens to keep ants and other bugs away. This is the DE that I know from a Horticulture class I took and my teacher told us to ALWAYS use a mask when spreading the stuff. It is shards of something (can't remember what) and it slices the bodies of the bugs which can also slice into your lungs. Of course, you would have to use a lot of it but still... I don't think I could ever use that on my dog. Is there something that changes my whole idea? Am I missing something? Haha. I saw DE advertised for that and I flinched thinking it would hurt the dogs so bad!


I *believe* that is the difference between "food grade" and non food grade. I don't wear a mask while using it and haven't had anything wrong.:wink:


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## ShanniBella

Diatomaceous Earth Flea & Tick Control.. PLUS..
*Safe FOOD GRADE Diatomaceous Earth Pet Wormer*, Livestock Wormer & Helper To Our Best Friends.
PETS: Our best friends come in all shapes and sizes. Protect them with Diatomaceous Earth. When lightly rubbed into their coats & dusted in their area, it is very effective against fleas, ticks, lice, and other pests on dogs, cats, and birds. DE is also an effective ORGANIC WORMER and will kill any worms or parasites the pets may have. When using as a daily food supplement or as a safe wormer, mix Food Grade Diatomaceous Earth with pet food as follows:

Large Cats - 1 teaspoon
Kittens - 1/4 teaspoon
Dogs 100 lbs + - 1-2 tablespoons
Dogs 50 - 100lbs - 1 tablespoon
Dogs Under 50 lbs - 1 teaspoon
Mini dogs - 1/2 teaspoon
As pets get older, they also get sore joints. With Diatomaceous Earth in their diet they will feel better. Also apply to moist kennel areas to reduce odors, dry the area, and prevent pest breeding. Deodorizing and absorption are natural functions of DE, so add to kitty litter to absorb odors and keep the litter box drier. 

Buy Diatomaceous Earth Now for Pets and Livestock! 

(See Livestock below).

Veterinary naturopaths Drs. Kim Bloomer & Jeannie Thomason, hosts of the online radio show, Animal Talk Naturally Animal Talk Naturally, have this to say about our Permaguard Diatomaceous Earth:

"Our work is based on natural, preventive care for animals so of course we are always on the lookout for good, quality NATURAL products to help our clients and our listening audience that won't break the bank. We've long been proponents of FOOD-grade diatomaceous earth as a natural pest control for both external and internal use in animals. Earth Works Health has provided both the high quality and affordability of DE in their Permaguard product that we look for in our own personal use as well as for our clients."

DIATOMACEOUS EARTH FOR LIVESTOCK: 
Diatomaceous Earth for Goats, Chickens, Horses, Cows, Pigs, Sheep, Rabbits and others will benefit from the use of Diatomaceous Earth. As well as being benefitial to animal health and pest control, our Diatomaceous Earth also act as an anti-caking additive to help the feed ingredients from sticking together. Some other benefits that have been observed:*

Control of fleas and ticks
Stimulates basic metabolism
Converts feed better
Reduces the desire to lick soil
Scouring or diarrhea: when fed it seems to act as a material that draws both virus and bacteria out of the body and solidifies the stool
Reduces odor and moisture in barns and stalls
Better coat and hoof condition
Keeps fly larvae from developing in manure, noticeably reducing the fly population
Reduces annual vet bills--Decreased Mortality
In Cattle: Decreased Mastitis
Dairy Cattle: Increased milk production
Kills parasites without chemicals
Better egg production, stronger eggs, and reduces overall animal stress
Added to livestock waters, will prevent algae from growing
LIVESTOCK - Suggested Feeding and Application Rates:

Animal
Suggested Rate

Beef Cattle
1% of total weight of dry ration 5% in grain or 1 oz. per day

Dairy Cattle
1% of total weight of dry ration or 1 oz. per day

Calves
4 grams in morning milk per calf or 2 oz. per day in feed

Chickens
5% in feed, use at full strength in dusting boxes

Hogs
2% of total feed ration, dust or spray on bedding and animals

Horses
5 oz. (1 cup) in daily feed ration

Sheep
1% in ground grains 1 part Diatomaceous Earth to 2 parts T-M salt

Goats
1% in grain, 1/2 oz per day, up to 50% in T-M salt


FOR LARGE ANIMALS, DE may be offered as "free choice" as long as the dispenser is well protected from the wind. Your livestock will also gain benefits from the many trace 
MINERALS naturally provided by our Freshwater Food Grade Diatomaceous Earth.

*Important Notice: 
Only Feed Organic Freshwater Food Grade DE To Animals.*
PERMA-GUARD CRAWLING INSECT CONTROL---EPA REGISTERED AND APPROVED!
EPA REG. NO. 73729-1-67197 EPA ESTABLISHMENT NO. 67197-UT-001 

*** EPA Notice: In order to claim that Perma-Guard DE kills insects, the EPA approved label needs to be on the bag. We sell both the EPA approved label bag and the Non EPA approved label bag. The only difference is the label---it is exactly the same product dug out of the same mine. You, of course, can buy either product---we just need to inform you that we can legally only make insect killing claims on the diatomaceous earth with the EPA approved label.

* FDA DISCLAIMER
Content on this site is for reference purposes only, based on reviews from users of diatomaceous earth. It is not intended to substitute for advice given by a physician, pharmacist, or other licensed healthcare professional. User statements regarding this dietary supplement have not been evaluated by the Food and Drug Administration and are not intended to diagnose, treat, cure, or prevent any disease or health condition. Those with health problems, pregnancy or who are nursing are specifically advised that they should consult their physician before taking any nutritional supplement. 

Any food grade diatomaceous earth uses other than those approved by the EPA, FDA, or USDA are strictly reports of what hundreds of users as well as we ourselves have done with diatomaceous earth.


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## SpooOwner

OP - where did that language come from? Does it have references? I'd like to read those studies. TIA.


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## whiteleo

So glad I feed raw. since I have I have not seen a flea on my dogs and therefore do not treat them with any flea products!


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## ShanniBella

SpooOwner said:


> OP - where did that language come from? Does it have references? I'd like to read those studies. TIA.


Hi there! I have found numerous articles on the net about these flea and tick treatments. Let me see how many I can dig up for you. I refuse to use these poisons on my pets and subject my child and myself to them as well. 

How Safe is Your Flea and Tick Killer?
EPA Evaluation of Pet Spot-On Products: Analysis and Mitigation Plan | Pesticides | US EPA
PDF] Are "Spot-On" Flea Killers Safe?
Adobe PDF - View as html
18 | FEBRUARY 2002 Copyright© 2002, Belvoir Publications, Inc. TO SUBSCRIBE, CALL (800) 829-9165 BY KATHLEEN DUDLEY Are "Spot-On ...
www.apnm.org/publications/resources/fleachemfin.pdf


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## nikkiluvsu15

Interesting read.

However, not giving Harleigh flea medicine here....is NOT going to happen.  I use Comfortis for her.


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## ShanniBella

^^^^Have you looked into more natural treatments or tried any? I understand down south has issues with fleas and ticks all year round. I just can't help to think that people are slowly killing there dogs by using these pesticides and poisons. Years ago you never heard of so many dogs dying of cancer. Nowadays it's an epidemic and I personally believe it has alot to do with over vaccinating, early S/N, and these flea and tick spot on treatments. Again, people can use what they want on there pets it's just that the information is there on the dangers and side affects of these products. I don't think alot of people are aware of the dangers of them because if the vets recommend it then it must be safe......or so the average pet owner thinks. JMPO


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## Tobi

nikkiluvsu15 said:


> Interesting read.
> 
> However, not giving Harleigh flea medicine here....is NOT going to happen.  I use Comfortis for her.


Have you attempted to not use it? i'm not sure how much different the flea epidemic is from Florida to where i am, but were still considered a "sub-tropical" climate here as well and we've not used it for the last 6 months and had no fleas, ticks are still a pain but those are big enough we can spot.


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## nikkiluvsu15

Yeah, in the "cooler" months I try to use Bug Off Garlic and it works fine (I just have to give her double the dosage). I tried using just that in the hotter months and it doesn't work at all... just wound up with a huge flea problem on all the animals! Fleas are just a giant problem here all year long... they never go away.

Since Comfortis only works for fleas, I do use a natural mosquito/tick repellant.


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## SerenityFL

Those of you using chemicals...you DO have two choices that are NATURAL and DO NOT poison your dogs:

DE as was mentioned earlier.

FleaBusters. (I say this all the time and it feels like no one hears me because we continue to have conversations about poisonous flea control.)


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## Tobi

nikkiluvsu15 said:


> Yeah, in the "cooler" months I try to use Bug Off Garlic and it works fine (I just have to give her double the dosage). I tried using just that in the hotter months and it doesn't work at all... just wound up with a huge flea problem on all the animals! Fleas are just a giant problem here all year long... they never go away.
> 
> Since Comfortis only works for fleas, I do use a natural mosquito/tick repellant.


I was just curious, it must be a much worse problem down there, that sucks!! or we might just be getting lucky, and Comfortis is what we used to use, never had any ill effects from it, and from what i've learned about the actually active ingredient it seems a bit more sound than others. Glad it works so well for Harleigh! :biggrin: btw, they make a new one called Trifexis that is spinosad (active ingredient in comfortis) with heartworm and other parasite protection, not sure if you've seen this one yet


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## RachelsaurusRexU

Even food grade DE is a lung irritant. It should absolutely not be inhaled. Please use a mask when applying DE!


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## nikkiluvsu15

SerenityFL said:


> Those of you using chemicals...you DO have two choices that are NATURAL and DO NOT poison your dogs:
> 
> DE as was mentioned earlier.
> 
> FleaBusters. (I say this all the time and it feels like no one hears me because we continue to have conversations about poisonous flea control.)


For those who CAN use natural products - more power to 'em! :biggrin: However, it just isn't going to happen here... _especially_ in our peak season. I've tried it and ended up with a huge flea problem.

This is the flea activity for my zip code/surrounding counties - looks fun doesn't it, LOL.

Fleas by AdventuresOfACrazyLab, on Flickr


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## Porphyria

I'm very interested in DE, but I've read that, because it works by drawing out moisture (in effect, dehydrating the insect), it doesn't work as well in very humid environments. Can someone with more experience with/knowledge of DE weigh in? Also, when applied to a dog's coat, does it dry the skin and coat? I've read that one should wear gloves when dealing with it because it draws the moisture out of whatever it touches. Is food-grade DE less drying? If so, how does it work to kill insects?


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## Paws&Tails

SerenityFL said:


> Those of you using chemicals...you DO have two choices that are NATURAL and DO NOT poison your dogs:
> 
> DE as was mentioned earlier.
> 
> FleaBusters. (I say this all the time and it feels like no one hears me because we continue to have conversations about poisonous flea control.)



Totally 100% agree with you on that.

Spike has a horrible flea allergy. One bite from a flea and he's miserable.

I started searching for natural flea control a few weeks ago and found FleaBusters. It works incredibly well. We put the nematodes in the yard and had them put the Rx for Fleas Plus Flea Powder inside after we steam cleaned and vacuumed everywhere. Worked incredibly well. I haven't seen a single flea. It wasn't a bad infestation, but it was there.

DE also works well. I dust it on him before walks.


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## 1605

RachelsaurusRexU said:


> Even food grade DE is a lung irritant. It should absolutely not be inhaled. Please use a mask when applying DE!


If it's a lung irritant I wouldn't think it would be particularly good to apply to your pet, either.


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## SerenityFL

nikkiluvsu15 said:


> For those who CAN use natural products - more power to 'em! :biggrin: However, it just isn't going to happen here... _especially_ in our peak season. I've tried it and ended up with a huge flea problem.
> 
> This is the flea activity for my zip code/surrounding counties - looks fun doesn't it, LOL.
> 
> Fleas by AdventuresOfACrazyLab, on Flickr


I used to live in Florida and used FleaBusters and it worked. They are nematodes, the heat and humidity doesn't bother them one bit.


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## SerenityFL

Paws&Tails said:


> Totally 100% agree with you on that.
> 
> Spike has a horrible flea allergy. One bite from a flea and he's miserable.
> 
> I started searching for natural flea control a few weeks ago and found FleaBusters. It works incredibly well. We put the nematodes in the yard and had them put the Rx for Fleas Plus Flea Powder inside after we steam cleaned and vacuumed everywhere. Worked incredibly well. I haven't seen a single flea. It wasn't a bad infestation, but it was there.
> 
> DE also works well. I dust it on him before walks.


Are you using the DE for something other than fleas? Because if your home and yard are treated with FleaBusters, your dog isn't going to get fleas...even if your dog was around another dog with fleas. Guaranteed.


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## nikkiluvsu15

SerenityFL said:


> I used to live in Florida and used FleaBusters and it worked. They are nematodes, the heat and humidity doesn't bother them one bit.


I know you used to live in FL - you are one of like 4 people I know that can use something natural. Heck, I know one person who has lived in FL their entire life and never once used a flea product on their dogs... no problems whatsoever. Harleigh must be a flea magnet or something, but they just do NOT work for her


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## SpooOwner

Like many of you, the original post confirms what I already believe to be true. However, it's still important to fact check the sources:



ShanniBella said:


> How Safe is Your Flea and Tick Killer?


No references AND he's selling his own product. 



ShanniBella said:


> EPA Evaluation of Pet Spot-On Products: Analysis and Mitigation Plan | Pesticides | US EPA


These are the EPA's conclusions re: dogs:


EPA found that the products could be used safely but that some additional restrictions are needed. EPA’s team of veterinarians learned that most incidents were minor, but unfortunately there were some pet deaths and “major incidents” reported. The Agency learned that the most commonly affected organ systems were dermal, gastrointestinal, and nervous.

Dog Findings: EPA's expert veterinarian team found that:
- small breed dogs were affected more than larger breeds for some products
- the amount of product in a single dose needed to vary more for small to large dogs – that is, how much the dog weighs matters a lot in deciding how much of a product should be used.​

Their overall recommendation was basically to narrowly tailor the weights for dosing - in other words, the current dosing for a topical pesticide may be, e.g. 20 mgs for dogs weighing 55-80 lbs, and the improved dosing may be 15 mgs for 55-65 lbs, 17.5 mgs for 65-75 lbs, etc.

For people living in areas with year round flea and tick problems, you can reduce your dogs' risk of pesticide-related health effects by simply applying a smaller dosage.



ShanniBella said:


> www.apnm.org/publications/resources/fleachemfin.pdf


 This is an article from WDJ, Feb 2002. It's 10 years old, but things probably haven't changed that much. If you go to the March 2002 issue, they discuss their recommendations for safer ways to eliminate/minimize pests. For those of you touting FleaBusters, it contains (or contained) boron, which is toxic and should not be used if your dog has an open sore.


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## pandaparade

Both my dog's heartworm and flea medicine made my dog very lethargic for days every time I gave it to him. He would not eat, all he would do is lay there. NOT something I wanted to see. Taking my chances I stopped giving my dog medicine since / March 2011. I have not seen any fleas on my dog as to this day. He is raw fed, and I think that has something to do with it. Other dogs are getting it around here so I am hoping it is the diet I am feeding that is preventing them. One can only guess!


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## runwiththewind

I have been feeding holistic kibble since '96. The breeder had him on Frontline. I never applied any meds and never had a problem with fleas or ticks. He's 15 years old now. 

There are side effects when using spot ons.

GreenPaws Flea and Tick Products Directory | Smarter Living 

Apple Cider Vinegar Repellant: Mix apple cider vinegar 50/50 with water & put in a spray bottle. Spray all over your dog remembering especially behind the ears and around the head generally (careful of eyes), around the base of the tail (once again keep away from delicate bits) and under your dog's 'armpits'.


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## BrownieM

Has anyone had experience using Neem Oil Spray? I have been using it intermittently this summer. I gave Frontline doses twice this summer but have been putting it off the past month or two. I go for walks in the woods (not through tall grass, though) and the poodles' haven't gotten any ticks. Ticks are more of a concern to me than fleas. We really haven't ever had a flea problem with our dogs (knock on wood).


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## SpooOwner

BrownieM said:


> Has anyone had experience using Neem Oil Spray? I have been using it intermittently this summer. I gave Frontline doses twice this summer but have been putting it off the past month or two. I go for walks in the woods (not through tall grass, though) and the poodles' haven't gotten any ticks. Ticks are more of a concern to me than fleas. We really haven't ever had a flea problem with our dogs (knock on wood).


I use neem oil. I can't tell how much it works, though, as we hike in deep woods, the dogs always get ticks, and they often run through water, washing off the neem oil. My best guess is that it helps, but doesn't totally prevent ticks: I often find ticks on their legs (where the oil may have washed off) but rarely on their backs. However, that's not too different from our hikes without neem oil, so who knows. I've also used shampoos with natural flea and tick repellents with some success, at least for the first few days. But these shampoos won't get Tiger show-ready.


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## catahoulamom

I live in Miami and have been lucky... I haven't had to fight the great flea battle for the past six months. It's not that they aren't around, they are, I work in a dog store and I can't count how many times a day I am asked for natural flea/tick preventatives (we don't sell anything chemical). My neighbor has like twelve outdoor cats (infested with fleas) that are often in my yard. I have used Comfortis in the past but haven't used any preventative other than a natural mosquito repellent over the past six months. I think it has a lot to do with their diet, because I've always had a problem with fleas and Miami until now. *knock on wood*

Also - I bathe them with Richards Organics Flea & Tick Shampoo, even though they don't have fleas or ticks. It smells good and only uses natural oils to kill/prevent anything.


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## BrownieM

SpooOwner said:


> I use neem oil. I can't tell how much it works, though, as we hike in deep woods, the dogs always get ticks, and they often run through water, washing off the neem oil. My best guess is that it helps, but doesn't totally prevent ticks: I often find ticks on their legs (where the oil may have washed off) but rarely on their backs. However, that's not too different from our hikes without neem oil, so who knows. I've also used shampoos with natural flea and tick repellents with some success, at least for the first few days. But these shampoos won't get Tiger show-ready.


I don't use anything on Tiger. I have used Neem and he still had a few ticks in his hair but they were tiny baby ticks and easy to see in his white fur. I just picked them off while they were crawling on his hair strands. Right now he is living with his handler so he's really not going on any hikes or walks in the woods.

I do the same for Millie and Henry, but I doubt I'd be able to see any ticks on them...I do go over them with a slicker outside when I get home from a walk in the woods with the hope that I would brush off any baby ticks in their hair. I have not found any engorged ticks in their skin this entire summer, so this is a good sign.


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## SerenityFL

nikkiluvsu15 said:


> I know you used to live in FL - you are one of like 4 people I know that can use something natural. Heck, I know one person who has lived in FL their entire life and never once used a flea product on their dogs... no problems whatsoever. Harleigh must be a flea magnet or something, but they just do NOT work for her


Have you tried it? You don't put it on the dog. You put it around your house and if you want, you can put it in your yard but the house should be enough. The nematodes eat the fleas, they are there as soon as you put that stuff in your house. It can take up to two weeks to see all the fleas disappear but this. stuff. works.


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## Scarlett_O'

pandaparade said:


> Both my dog's heartworm and flea medicine made my dog very lethargic for days every time I gave it to him. He would not eat, all he would do is lay there. NOT something I wanted to see. Taking my chances I stopped giving my dog medicine since / March 2011. I have not seen any fleas on my dog as to this day. He is raw fed, and I think that has something to do with it. Other dogs are getting it around here so I am hoping it is the diet I am feeding that is preventing them. One can only guess!


Do you mind if I ask you which ones you used?


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## pandaparade

comfortis and interceptor


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## chowder

SerenityFL said:


> Have you tried it? You don't put it on the dog. You put it around your house and if you want, you can put it in your yard but the house should be enough. The nematodes eat the fleas, they are there as soon as you put that stuff in your house. It can take up to two weeks to see all the fleas disappear but this. stuff. works.


Do you know if it has any effect on ticks? We don't have any flea problem at all, but do get really bad ticks at the start of every summer. Since it is called 'fleabusters' it doesn't sound like it would work on ticks but maybe?


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## 1605

I hope people realize that "natural" products are chemicals too. So if you think you aren't "giving/applying chemicals" to you dog when you use a "natural product", think again.

Also, a product that is labeled "all natural" is not automatically better for your dog. Not only can they be just as toxic, but they may not be as stringently regulated as similar "chemical" products.

FWIW,


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## BrownieM

SubMariner said:


> I hope people realize that "natural" products are chemicals too. So if you think you aren't "giving/applying chemicals" to you dog when you use a "natural product", think again.
> 
> Also, a product that is labeled "all natural" is not automatically better for your dog. Not only can they be just as toxic, but they may not be as stringently regulated as similar "chemical" products.
> 
> FWIW,


Very true. I suppose we have to pick and choose our "chemicals" when we live in areas that have pests that pose a health risk to our dogs. My first dog got Rocky Mountain Spotted fever from a tick when we used no preventative because we didn't like the idea of poisoning our dogs. The disease was detrimental to his health and led to a downward spiral in which he ultimately died.


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## RCTRIPLEFRESH5

Richards Organics Flea & Tick Shampoo,

seems good for ticks any other ideas?


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## SerenityFL

chowder said:


> Do you know if it has any effect on ticks? We don't have any flea problem at all, but do get really bad ticks at the start of every summer. Since it is called 'fleabusters' it doesn't sound like it would work on ticks but maybe?


Ack, sorry Chowder, didn't see this until now. No, it doesn't work on ticks because the FleaBusters powder, if used in the yard, goes to the ground. Ticks generally climb up shoots of grass or weeds or trees. So, while it may have a little effect on ticks, it's not something that they tout as a tick control. I emailed them and asked and that was the answer they gave me.

I do know that someone...dang it I forget where I read it...was working on a remedy for ticks, using nematodes, but that story came out years ago and thus far, they haven't found a way. I mean, how do you get the powder of nematodes to stay on the top of the grass blades or the side of a tree? 

I am, however, interested in that mix of ACV that was on the other page. I'd like to know if anyone else has used that with any modicum of success. Cause right now...seems only chemicals really do the trick on ticks and even then it's not perfect.

Oh and by the way, I had said somewhere on this forum that when we first moved here that my girl got all kinds of tick bites on her. She did have a tick on her, I did find one. But she had so many bites. When I was explaining this to the vet, I was told that while she may have picked up a tick somewhere, the bites were more than likely black fly bites. Which, makes total sense because when we got here, they were everywhere. So now I have to find something that repels black flies, too. Ugh.


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## catahoulamom

RCTRIPLEFRESH5 said:


> Richards Organics Flea & Tick Shampoo,
> 
> seems good for ticks any other ideas?


Richards Organics rocks. I've only used it when my dog had fleas, I'll lather them up and let it sit as long as I can get away with, then rinse it and ALL the fleas fall off dead. My coworkers who have had problems with ticks swear by the stuff.


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## RCTRIPLEFRESH5

but the real question is whether it prevents ticks or fleas..and how often to use it


catahoulamom said:


> Richards Organics rocks. I've only used it when my dog had fleas, I'll lather them up and let it sit as long as I can get away with, then rinse it and ALL the fleas fall off dead. My coworkers who have had problems with ticks swear by the stuff.


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## 3Musketeers

Ya, I stopped using front-line and flea sprays etc about a year ago, I used to use them because I didn't know any better. Just like I fed Puri-crap for 5 years because I didn't know any better :frown:. 
So far no big flea infestations, though I had found a flea here and there (before nematodes). I tried DE and it did help, granted there weren't many fleas to start. I tried giving ACV (Braggs Unfiltered) for a while but it was impossibly hard to get my brats to drink anything that had the acv in it. They don't seem to turn their nose up at garlic however, though I cannot say whether or not it works as they don't get it regularly.

I have to agree the nematodes (FleaBusters) are doing a darned good job of eating the fleas in MY yard, but the whole rest of the world on the other side of the gate isn't full of flea-eating nematodes. I didn't use their indoor product, whatever it is, only the nematodes (outdoor).
I don't use DE on my dogs anymore as it made them look like little ghosts, but I do use it at my door and the kitchen to keep the ants out (and other bugs possibly).


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## cast71

SubMariner said:


> I hope people realize that "natural" products are chemicals too. So if you think you aren't "giving/applying chemicals" to you dog when you use a "natural product", think again.
> 
> Also, a product that is labeled "all natural" is not automatically better for your dog. Not only can they be just as toxic, but they may not be as stringently regulated as similar "chemical" products.
> 
> FWIW,



Products like frontline, advantics...... use synthetic chemicals. There's a huge difference between synthetic and natural chemicals. Perfect example is borax. borax is a natural occurring mineral. It can be toxic at very high levels, but is safe at low levels. Table salt is more toxic than borax. Now take boric acid, a synthetic human made version of borax. It is much more toxic than borax.

I'll use my dog as an example. When I use to give my dog frontline, advantics.... he would immediately develop hives on his back. Now I use apple cider vinegar in his food for fleas and an effective homemade tick/biting fly spray and no blistering skin. When I use to give my dog heartworm pills, his whole body would be covered in pimples with puss coming out. He would get them everywhere, even in his ears. The ivermeticin pesticide caused a staph skin infection. Nasty stuff. Now I give my dog the proper amount of raw garlic, that effectively takes care of heartworm and all other internal parasites. The best part is no staph skin infection. The proper amount of natural chemicals, are safe. I do not have any confidence that the proper amount of synthetic chemicals are safe.


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## cast71

3Musketeers said:


> Ya, I stopped using front-line and flea sprays etc about a year ago, I used to use them because I didn't know any better. Just like I fed Puri-crap for 5 years because I didn't know any better :frown:.
> So far no big flea infestations, though I had found a flea here and there (before nematodes). I tried DE and it did help, granted there weren't many fleas to start. I tried giving ACV (Braggs Unfiltered) for a while but it was impossibly hard to get my brats to drink anything that had the acv in it. They don't seem to turn their nose up at garlic however, though I cannot say whether or not it works as they don't get it regularly.
> 
> I have to agree the nematodes (FleaBusters) are doing a darned good job of eating the fleas in MY yard, but the whole rest of the world on the other side of the gate isn't full of flea-eating nematodes. I didn't use their indoor product, whatever it is, only the nematodes (outdoor).
> I don't use DE on my dogs anymore as it made them look like little ghosts, but I do use it at my door and the kitchen to keep the ants out (and other bugs possibly).


Try adding the organic raw apple cider vinegar to some raw chop meat. you can also put in raw chopped garlic in the mix. Your dog will definitely eat it;0) It does work, you just have to do it routinely. I use it 5 days a week. The acv repells fleas, and the garlic kills internal parasites. The de is great for putting around your foundation, spraying your lawn and dusting your house.


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## bridget246

Tobi said:


> diatomaceous earth
> 
> Let me google that for you


Just reading up on this as I was planning to put frontline on my dog soon. I too didn't know what DE was. Google is not your friend when it comes to overused abbreviations. OD, ID, OD, and there were a few others I saw on here that I didn't recognize at first.

What about ticks? If I take my dog fishing with me I'm really afraid of what might get on her if I don't protect her.

Edit: Would have already have used it if she hadn't got sick yesterday. Again, it seems I wasted my money because now it looks like I'm not going to use my frontline. What about the heartworm pill? Is that safe? And why oh why are vets recommending things that aren't safe to use? Why can't be as easy to find good dog info as it is to find good info on what to feed and use on humans?


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## 1605

cast71 said:


> Products like frontline, advantics...... use synthetic chemicals. There's a huge difference between synthetic and natural chemicals. Perfect example is borax. borax is a natural occurring mineral. It can be toxic at very high levels, but is safe at low levels. Table salt is more toxic than borax. Now take boric acid, a synthetic human made version of borax. It is much more toxic than borax.


*Boric acid & borax are not the same thing. *From Wikipedia:
"Boric acid may be prepared by reacting borax (sodium tetraborate decahydrate) with a mineral acid, such as hydrochloric acid..."




> I'll use my dog as an example. When I use to give my dog frontline, advantics.... he would immediately develop hives on his back. Now I use apple cider vinegar in his food for fleas and an effective homemade tick/biting fly spray and no blistering skin. When I use to give my dog heartworm pills, his whole body would be covered in pimples with puss coming out. He would get them everywhere, even in his ears. The ivermeticin pesticide caused a staph skin infection. Nasty stuff. Now I give my dog the proper amount of raw garlic, that effectively takes care of heartworm and all other internal parasites. The best part is no staph skin infection. The proper amount of natural chemicals, are safe. I do not have any confidence that the proper amount of synthetic chemicals are safe.


Obviously your dog has a very sensitive system. Not every dog reacts like that to these treatments; I know mine don't. However, that being said, I do not know of any empirical scientific data that supports garlic as an effective preventative against heart worms or other internal parasites. Do you have links to any studies that support this statement?

People seem to be under the impression that something "natural" cannot be harmful or toxic, or that it's always better than a "synthetic" version. Unfortunately, this more marketing ploy that fact. If something is CHEMICALLY identical, your body cannot tell the difference whether or not that chemical is "natural" or "synthetic"; it uses them in the same way.


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## bridget246

Should I keep giving the heart worm pill?


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## 1605

bridget246 said:


> Should I keep giving the heart worm pill?


YES you should!!!


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## ShanniBella

bridget246 said:


> And why oh why are vets recommending things that aren't safe to use?


I would like to know that answer as well. I know some vets in my office that won't even use it on there own dogs so why are they suggesting it to others? Vets can be money hungry though and let's face it.....that crap sells. You see all those cutesy commercials advertising k9 advantix and people buy into it...kind of like Beneful. They see all the veggies and meats they advertise on a beneful commercial and these owners think they are feeding there dogs excellents food :tsk:


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