# Oral-nasal fistula - wonder if I caused it?



## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

i took Parker to the vet today and he said where his canines were extracted there are holes up to his sinuses. I had noticed that he sometimes choked and sneezed with food, and he makes this goofy clicking noise when he sniffs.

I was told to give him soft food for 30 days, and I did for almost 30 days, and then two days ago I gave him a chicken head and today he had a turkey neck.

I wonder if that's what did it, OR the ground meat with bones in it, which were very tiny. The only other food he's had is chicken cut up, or some pork loin etc - nothing he had to chew.

But, he was doing the choking thing and the clicking before the chicken head.

Is this normal for a dog with extractions? My vet said that normally he would pack and stitch the holes at the time of the extraction.


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

i doubt you did this.

what did the vet say was the fix.....and did he stitch it? or not? if not, maybe he's the cause.

my honey had roots growing into his sinuses, making root canal difficult. there were stitches once the roots were removed.


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## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

magicre said:


> i doubt you did this.
> 
> what did the vet say was the fix.....and did he stitch it? or not? if not, maybe he's the cause.
> 
> my honey had roots growing into his sinuses, making root canal difficult. there were stitches once the roots were removed.


no, my vet suggested it be fixed - the vet for the rescue did the extractions. So the rescue wants me to go back to the original vet for the stitches.

They said he has to stay there for two whole days  and it's about an hour's drive from me. Maybe i can talk them into letting him come back sooner.

Honestly, i'm just a little scared they will look in his mouth and decide I've been feeding him stuff that hurt his gums and take him away from us.


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

you have simply got to stop. don't make me come over and smack you.

you didn't do this. 

the vet from the rescue most likely did not put stitches in when he should have.....seems like a d'oh to me....although, i am, admittedly, opinionated, not necessarily educated. 

you did not do this. repeat after me.

besides...all they'd have to do is say we're going to take him away from you and i want pictures of them trying to catch your quickly disappearing behind...


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

how will they know what you fed him?

how do they know this dog doesn't get into things?

how would they know if this dog isn't crazy nuts and gnaws on rocks like my pug sometimes does....


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## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

magicre said:


> you have simply got to stop. don't make me come over and smack you.
> 
> you didn't do this.
> 
> ...


That's it - if they ask I'll tell them it was a rock!! Thank you!

Three days ago Rick was sitting there and he said to me "you don't think anyone is going to want to adopt him do you?" And I said why, you want to keep him? And he said well, I don't think anyone could take better care of him.


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## MollyWoppy (Mar 19, 2010)

I mean, like, sure, if the original vet didn't suture the holes, then any type of food could get up there, whether it was raw, kibble, cooked or canned. 
When they took my wisdom teeth out, there were big holes back there and of course food got into them and blocked them up so they couldn't bleed out, ached like hell till the dentist drained them out. (didn't have water picks back then, but they would have hurt like hell so probably wouldn't' have used one anyway).
So, go in with your head held high, it's not your fault in the slightest.


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## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

MollyWoppy said:


> I mean, like, sure, if the original vet didn't suture the holes, then any type of food could get up there, whether it was raw, kibble, cooked or canned.
> When they took my wisdom teeth out, there were big holes back there and of course food got into them and blocked them up so they couldn't bleed out, ached like hell till the dentist drained them out. (didn't have water picks back then, but they would have hurt like hell so probably wouldn't' have used one anyway).
> So, go in with your head held high, it's not your fault in the slightest.


Thanks - he's been clicking since I got him. I bet they probably should have been stitched in the first place. My vet said they were awfully large to have been left open. 

Poor fellow, every time he eats he's snorting food up into his nose. I couldn't figure out why he was coughing and sneezing so much!


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## MollyWoppy (Mar 19, 2010)

Awww, poor pup! He's had it so hard, the poor little so and so. Thank GOD you and your husband have him now, it's the best thing that ever happened to him.


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## DaneMama (Jun 27, 2008)

Unfortunately this is just something that happens, especially with Doxies and Italian greyhounds. These particular breeds have very small, brittle bone in their jaw structure to begin with that they're vulnerable to become rotten from poor dental hygiene that no amount of the best sutures would fix some of the worse cases of oral-nasal fistulas. Its more so that the bone itself is just gone...and diseased tissue has a hard time healing once the infection is gone. 

There's a chance that it can be repaired. But there's also a good chance that there's just NOT enough healthy tissue there to close those holes. I've seen it too many times in the past go either way. 

This is another reason its so important to feed appropriate diets to these smaller breed dogs.


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## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

DaneMama said:


> Unfortunately this is just something that happens, especially with Doxies and Italian greyhounds. These particular breeds have very small, brittle bone in their jaw structure to begin with that they're vulnerable to become rotten from poor dental hygiene that no amount of the best sutures would fix some of the worse cases of oral-nasal fistulas. Its more so that the bone itself is just gone...and diseased tissue has a hard time healing once the infection is gone.
> 
> There's a chance that it can be repaired. But there's also a good chance that there's just NOT enough healthy tissue there to close those holes. I've seen it too many times in the past go either way.
> 
> This is another reason its so important to feed appropriate diets to these smaller breed dogs.


Yikes. I hope they can fix him. My vet did say if the gum had withdrawn, it's very difficult to suture up and get the holes to close.

If they can't close them, can he just live that way?


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## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

MollyWoppy said:


> Awww, poor pup! He's had it so hard, the poor little so and so. Thank GOD you and your husband have him now, it's the best thing that ever happened to him.


I am very glad he is with us. He is such a happy fellow - not at all like Snorkels. Snorkels is the one sending dirty words my way and wanting to be left alone unless it's totally on her terms, but Parker is all rainbows and love and roses. 

I hate the thought of him sitting in a cage over there for two days. I would never let Snorkels do that. But then again, I wonder if he has to do it for two days. Seems like if they did it Thursday morning, I could get him the next day.

Of course, whatever fixes him up I'm not gonna gripe about. Maybe he doesn't stress out over cage life like Snorkels does.


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## DaneMama (Jun 27, 2008)

Unfortunately yes, he would just have to live with it. Lots of dogs do....and they live fairly normal lives for the most part.


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## Donna Little (May 31, 2011)

Poor little baby. My wee Tommy had no teeth on the top at all when I got him and 3 on the bottom I think. Ended up with just one by the time he passed away. So he made little strange noises too and also his nose dripped a lot. The vet said it was because he had no top teeth. 
Hopefully all will be well with little Parker soon and I think he needs to stay with you guys.... Hint, hint....:wink:


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## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

Donna Little said:


> Poor little baby. My wee Tommy had no teeth on the top at all when I got him and 3 on the bottom I think. Ended up with just one by the time he passed away. So he made little strange noises too and also his nose dripped a lot. The vet said it was because he had no top teeth.
> Hopefully all will be well with little Parker soon and I think he needs to stay with you guys.... Hint, hint....:wink:


Yes, I think Rick especially would be heartbroken to see him go. We'll see - I want to foster but my allergies won't let me have alot of dogs like you do and if I keep adopting them I can't foster any more! But maybe no one will want him. My door hasn't been being beaten down with people wanting him, that's for sure.

I wonder if Tommy had the same thing. I never heard of having holes like that before. I also wonder if Snorkels didn't have that issue because the canines were the four teeth she kept. Or maybe they stitched her up when they did the extractions. The vet said the canines have very deep roots.

Actually, Snorkels is pretty lucky to have two on top and two on bottom. Three teeth on the bottom would seem to be pretty useless because there's nothing on the top to grab stuff. Of course, I am always underestimating their determination.


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## Donna Little (May 31, 2011)

xellil said:


> Yes, I think Rick especially would be heartbroken to see him go. We'll see - I want to foster but my allergies won't let me have alot of dogs like you do and if I keep adopting them I can't foster any more!


Do you have springtime allergies? Mine are absolutely in full swing right now. I can't step outside without wanting to pluck my head off. My eyes are so itchy it's all I can do to leave them alone and the roof of my mouth itches like crazy. I literally had to walk around yesterday with kleenex stuck up my nose because it was pouring like a faucet. :mmph:
I've just started keeping my dogs off the bed and only letting 4 of them sleep with me at night AFTER I wipe them down so I think that's helping. And of course one of those 4 is Nat who has 10 hairs on her entire body so she's not really holding any pollen on her. We had no winter to speak of so they're saying the pollen is going to be off the charts. And I believe them because I'm about to go crazy. And nothing makes me happier than to see winter end. Why does the great outdoors dislike me so much when all I want to do is love it?? :noidea:


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## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

Donna Little said:


> Do you have springtime allergies? Mine are absolutely in full swing right now. I can't step outside without wanting to pluck my head off. My eyes are so itchy it's all I can do to leave them alone and the roof of my mouth itches like crazy. I literally had to walk around yesterday with kleenex stuck up my nose because it was pouring like a faucet. :mmph:
> I've just started keeping my dogs off the bed and only letting 4 of them sleep with me at night AFTER I wipe them down so I think that's helping. And of course one of those 4 is Nat who has 10 hairs on her entire body so she's not really holding any pollen on her. We had no winter to speak of so they're saying the pollen is going to be off the charts. And I believe them because I'm about to go crazy. And nothing makes me happier than to see winter end. Why does the great outdoors dislike me so much when all I want to do is love it?? :noidea:


Me too! I think your pollen allergies are worse than mine, though. I do not have Kleenexes stuck up my nose at this time  And when the roof of my mouth itches, it's usually a fruit allergy. I have to say, though, my allergies are worse since we moved and I can't really figure out whether it's dogs or pollen - when I go to sleep at night I am laying there listening to myself wheeze.

Parker seems to have more dander and gets dirtier than my other two dogs. And of course they all sleep at least in the same room with us - Rebel on the bed, Parker on the floor, and Snorkels either place depending on how she feels. But she doesn't want to sleep on my face like Parker does.


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

xellil said:


> Thanks - he's been clicking since I got him. I bet they probably should have been stitched in the first place. My vet said they were awfully large to have been left open.
> 
> Poor fellow, every time he eats he's snorting food up into his nose. I couldn't figure out why he was coughing and sneezing so much!


is it possible it was left open so it didn't become infected? and now it's time to close it?

and if you keep this guilt trip up, i'm sending penny over to smack you


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

DaneMama said:


> Unfortunately yes, he would just have to live with it. Lots of dogs do....and they live fairly normal lives for the most part.


if he still has enough teeth....would it be better to feed him big pieces as opposed to grinds? 

or would he still inhale food up his nasal cavities?


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## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

magicre said:


> if he still has enough teeth....would it be better to feed him big pieces as opposed to grinds?
> 
> or would he still inhale food up his nasal cavities?


He has not figured out bones yet at all. I gave him a half a turkey neck and an hour later he had made no headway. He'll probably start getting the hang of it. I have some chicken backs but haven't tried them yet. i thought the bones might be a little sharper than the turkey neck.

But you are right - I put water in their food so with either grinds or meat cut up, he snarfing that in. Sometimes he does fine, sometimes he doesn't.

I'm not sure if they planned it that way or not. Or, perhaps they did stitch them? But I don't think so.


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## chowder (Sep 7, 2008)

xellil said:


> I wonder if Tommy had the same thing. I never heard of having holes like that before. I also wonder if Snorkels didn't have that issue because the canines were the four teeth she kept. Or maybe they stitched her up when they did the extractions. The vet said the canines have very deep roots.


I was told with both my Lhasa's that they wouldn't extract their canine teeth no matter how bad they were because it would expose the sinus's and that would be worse then the bad teeth. Apparently it is a common thing when you pull the canines. This was awhile ago, though so maybe they do it now. 



Donna Little said:


> Do you have springtime allergies? Mine are absolutely in full swing right now. I can't step outside without wanting to pluck my head off. My eyes are so itchy it's all I can do to leave them alone and the roof of my mouth itches like crazy. I literally had to walk around yesterday with kleenex stuck up my nose because it was pouring like a faucet. :mmph:
> I've just started keeping my dogs off the bed and only letting 4 of them sleep with me at night AFTER I wipe them down so I think that's helping. And of course one of those 4 is Nat who has 10 hairs on her entire body so she's not really holding any pollen on her. We had no winter to speak of so they're saying the pollen is going to be off the charts. And I believe them because I'm about to go crazy. And nothing makes me happier than to see winter end. Why does the great outdoors dislike me so much when all I want to do is love it?? :noidea:


My allergies are so bad here in NC now that it's ridiculous. It was over 80 degrees outside today and I swear every single thing is flowering even though it's only March! I've loaded up on so much Allegra and Sudafed that they're starting to look at me suspiciously at the Walgreens! I personally LOVE winter and we never even got to have one here this year :frown:


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## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

chowder said:


> I was told with both my Lhasa's that they wouldn't extract their canine teeth no matter how bad they were because it would expose the sinus's and that would be worse then the bad teeth. Apparently it is a common thing when you pull the canines. This was awhile ago, though so maybe they do it now.


Wow. I wonder if that's why they left Snorkels canines, although they do seem to be ok. And you are right - i just talked to the people who are doing the procedure and they said it often takes SEVERAL tries, over several procedures, to get them closed. And they expect Parker to take several tries since his are so big.

i am wondering if he even needs it. Natalie says they do ok. He does choke and cough sometimes but it's not every time. Maybe there is a chance of infection. It seems almost cruel to keep putting him under, over and over again.

I may have to copy Donna Little and stuff some Kleenex up my nose. Hubby is out mowing the grass and there is something he is blowing around that is making me drip like crazy!!!


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## Donna Little (May 31, 2011)

xellil said:


> Wow. I wonder if that's why they left Snorkels canines, although they do seem to be ok. And you are right - i just talked to the people who are doing the procedure and they said it often takes SEVERAL tries, over several procedures, to get them closed. And they expect Parker to take several tries since his are so big.
> 
> i am wondering if he even needs it. Natalie says they do ok. He does choke and cough sometimes but it's not every time. Maybe there is a chance of infection. It seems almost cruel to keep putting him under, over and over again.
> *
> I may have to copy Donna Little and stuff some Kleenex up my nose.* Hubby is out mowing the grass and there is something he is blowing around that is making me drip like crazy!!!


It's not a pretty look but it helps. I was cutting up some beef heart yesterday when mine was pouring. It's a little difficult to wipe your nose with blood all over your hands... My husband walked in and just said, "Mmmmm, sexy...."


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## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

Donna Little said:


> It's not a pretty look but it helps. I was cutting up some beef heart yesterday when mine was pouring. It's a little difficult to wipe your nose with blood all over your hands... My husband walked in and just said, "Mmmmm, sexy...."


Oh Donna you are gorgeous - I am sure you are sexy even with soggy Kleenexes hanging out of your nose.

Although I WOULD like to see a photo.


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## Donna Little (May 31, 2011)

xellil said:


> Oh Donna you are gorgeous - I am sure you are sexy even with soggy Kleenexes hanging out of your nose.
> 
> *Although I WOULD like to see a photo.*


Yeah, that's not likely to happen....


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

Donna Little said:


> It's not a pretty look but it helps. I was cutting up some beef heart yesterday when mine was pouring. It's a little difficult to wipe your nose with blood all over your hands... My husband walked in and just said, "Mmmmm, sexy...."


this post is useless without pics.


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

chowder said:


> I was told with both my Lhasa's that they wouldn't extract their canine teeth no matter how bad they were because it would expose the sinus's and that would be worse then the bad teeth. Apparently it is a common thing when you pull the canines. This was awhile ago, though so maybe they do it now.
> 
> My allergies are so bad here in NC now that it's ridiculous. It was over 80 degrees outside today and I swear every single thing is flowering even though it's only March! I've loaded up on so much Allegra and Sudafed that they're starting to look at me suspiciously at the Walgreens! I personally LOVE winter and we never even got to have one here this year :frown:




it is so bad here right now. i truly do not like this state between january and april.....i have a headache t h i s big...so big, that honey has to bring pizza home for dinner.

we bought over the counter zyrtec, which seems to help more than sudafed and allegra or claritin. maybe try it.


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## Donna Little (May 31, 2011)

magicre said:


> this post is useless without pics.


I think that's all I've been on this forum lately. Useless, but sometimes amusing... :wink:
So for your viewing pleasure, here's a picture of me taken a couple of years ago, on my 20th wedding anniversary, having a violent allergic reaction to something. No idea what. My head was like a balloon and it was seriously scary. Ended up with sacks of fluid under my lovely blackened eyes, and hanging jowls  for a couple of days. We were on a trip out of town and this oh-so-pretty photo was taken at the hospital. 









I think for me the fear was mostly that my throat would swell shut and I'd die. My husband on the other hand, seemed more scared my face would stay like this, and he'd be stuck with Mrs. Potato head for the rest of his life. :shocked: 
The swelling in my face was there for what seemed like forever but I was looking more like my old self about 4 days later. 
So as luck would have it, I clearly survived, and the rest of the trip was fun and uneventful. And Tommy, my precious tiny Chi was with me, so that made it all better! 
Here I am days later, still a little swollen, but happy to be alive, and with my 2 favorite men! :smile:


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## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

Oh you poor thing!! That looks scary. You don't look like Mrs. Potato head  you do look really different than normal, though! Amazing how a little swelling changes everything.

I know how you feel, I do that regularly although mostly it's my tongue. I have no photos thank goodness!!! The first time it happened it was my upper lip and cheek, which got gigantic with a black eye, and hubby took me to the ER where they called the police and questioned us about spousal abuse.

So now when it happens, I have to go to the ER all by myself. Hubby says if I want, he'll drop me at the door and I better tell them I have no significant other. So what I normally do is sit in the ER parking lot and wait and see if my throat starts to swell shut. It never has, so after a few hours I go back home. 

I will say one thing, every time I wake up I am feeling around on my tongue for a lump. i am so conditioned to it I automatically check my tongue and the inside of my lips to see if I need to start freaking out.


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## Donna Little (May 31, 2011)

xellil said:


> Oh you poor thing!! That looks scary. You don't look like Mrs. Potato head * I may have to agree. She's much cuter than this... *you do look really different than normal, though! Amazing how a little swelling changes everything.
> 
> I know how you feel, I do that regularly although mostly it's my tongue. I have no photos thank goodness!!! The first time it happened it was my upper lip and cheek, which got gigantic with a black eye, and hubby took me to the ER where they called the police and questioned us about spousal abuse.
> *I thought about that too. I was SOOO congested though I think it was apparent that I couldn't breathe through my nose so I assume they believed me and didn't think Mark had beaten me. But if he had it was awfully nice of him to take me to the hospital.... :wink:*
> ...


I've had one other incident since like this but I immediately got a huge dose of Benedryl in me and it was under control much faster. I don't want to do it any more though please... Not fun. :nono:


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

ok. you need to smack your honey for thinking you look like mrs. potato head LOL

you are adorable.


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## Donna Little (May 31, 2011)

magicre said:


> ok. you need to smack your honey for thinking you look like mrs. potato head LOL
> 
> you are adorable.


I think he actually said to a friend that I looked like some scary old hag. They advised him to sleep with one eye open after that comment...


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## chowder (Sep 7, 2008)

magicre said:


> it is so bad here right now. i truly do not like this state between january and april.....i have a headache t h i s big...so big, that honey has to bring pizza home for dinner.
> 
> we bought over the counter zyrtec, which seems to help more than sudafed and allegra or claritin. maybe try it.


I can relate to both of you with the swelling faces and the heads. Last night was a 'two ice pack' night. The first melted and I had to move on to the second. We keep many ice packs in the freezer and they really help when your face is all swollen up from allergies. Last night was one of those where I had to sit on the side of the bed sneezing for twenty minutes before I could even lay down to try to sleep. Then it was a toss up to which was throbbing more, my head or my face..... so the ice packs alternated.

I see no evolutionary need for allergies!!! But I will take your suggestion and switch over to Zyrtec today and see if that helps (I have them all in the cabinet!).


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

actually, surprise surprise...it worked better than anything else i've tried.

i try so hard not to take any meds....but sometimes the headache from this weather is just too much.


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## Donna Little (May 31, 2011)

chowder said:


> I can relate to both of you with the swelling faces and the heads. Last night was a 'two ice pack' night. The first melted and I had to move on to the second. We keep many ice packs in the freezer and they really help when your face is all swollen up from allergies. Last night was one of those where I had to sit on the side of the bed sneezing for twenty minutes before I could even lay down to try to sleep. Then it was a toss up to which was throbbing more, my head or my face..... so the ice packs alternated.
> 
> I see no evolutionary need for allergies!!! But I will take your suggestion and switch over to Zyrtec today and see if that helps (I have them all in the cabinet!).


Allergies are just pure evil. I whined half the day yesterday about being trapped in the house. I LOVE to open my house up when the weather feels like this. I have a screened porch off of my bedroom and another off of the dining room on the other side of the house. When both are open it's like spring heaven with a breeze blowing through. But NOOOO. I can't even crack a window. It's so frustrating! :frusty: I would spend every day outside if I could but I think the great outdoors is trying to kill me. I'm getting ready, and heading out for some Zyrtec right now. I'm willing to try just about anything at this point....


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## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

chowder said:


> I see no evolutionary need for allergies!!! But I will take your suggestion and switch over to Zyrtec today and see if that helps (I have them all in the cabinet!).


Several people have told me recently Zyrtec is the best. I had three months worth of Claritin and just ran out so I'm going to get some.

I've always heard you need to switch those things around, because they stop working.


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## chowder (Sep 7, 2008)

xellil said:


> Several people have told me recently Zyrtec is the best. I had three months worth of Claritin and just ran out so I'm going to get some.
> 
> I've always heard you need to switch those things around, because they stop working.


You know, our conversations were a lot more fun last week before the sneezing, throbbing, and wheezing started. :biggrin:


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## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

chowder said:


> You know, our conversations were a lot more fun last week before the sneezing, throbbing, and wheezing started. :biggrin:


I know! I have such a horrible headache right now I'm not sure I could even enjoy a good sex toy thread.


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