# New(ish) to raw feeding



## lucasanti (Feb 21, 2013)

Hi all! First post for me, as I've come to this forum to seek out some knowledge. We have a 4 1/2 yr old Boxer female we rescued almost 3 years ago. When we got her she was put on Taste of The Wild, as the person who was working with her said that she had exhibited grain allergies. She was on that diet with a bit of wet food added for flavor up until last October when she started having diarrhea from the wet food (Lotus Chicken). 

I should go back and explain that one of the biggest reasons for taking her off of the kibble was that she would over drink and throw up a lot. If we didn't monitor her drinking habits, we would have several messes a day to clean. When we returned the 2 cases of Lotus to the pet store, the manager we spoke to suggested trying raw because of well dogs process it. We figured it couldn't hurt to try so we transitioned her into over the course of a couple weeks. We got the Sojos vegetable mix and grind chicken in the food processor for her.

She has been on the diet for 4 months solid now but has lost about 6-8 lbs which actually makes her look a lot skinnier than her weight says. Her ribs show and it really is kind of embarrassing because honestly I would hate for people to think that we don't take care of our dog. The reason I care is because I am a pet photographer and having a malnourished looking dog doesn't speak volumes to my love for animals (which I have a surplus of)

The bottom line is that I want to what is best for our girl. She means the world to both of us and we want to make sure she is getting the best diet regimen for her health. Is 4 months enough evaluation time? Should we explore other protein options?


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## naturalfeddogs (Jan 6, 2011)

Welcome! Losing some weight is normal in the beginning of raw, but as they get into it more and onto red meats they will gain weight back. Most here feed prey model raw which is a variety of raw meat,bones and organs. Here is a link about getting started How to Get Started | Prey Model Raw


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## MollyWoppy (Mar 19, 2010)

It seems that I've heard about of a lot of boxers that have trouble keeping weight on. 
How much does she weigh and how much (weight) a day are you feeding her? Is her poop ok? 
Is there any particular reason why you grind her food? Is chicken the main source of protein so far? Have you added in organs of any type yet? 
Sorry for all the questions, just need a bit more background......


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## Mandy (Aug 30, 2012)

Welcome to the forums! I also own boxers, they're great aren't they? 

I'm still relatively new to raw, but will answer your questions to the best of my ability. Firstly, are you feeding her just chicken right now? When you say you grind the chicken, is it boneless? If so, you should include bones so that she's getting a good source of calcium which is crucial. Have you tried feeding her a "real" bone in piece of chicken to eat? By letting her jaws work to break the bone not only are you giving her jaw exercise, but you're also providing her with a great way to keep her teeth clean. She will also need organ meats, especially liver if she's getting that already.

Typically when you start raw you start with chicken since it's one of the easier proteins for them to digest. Once they have normal stools you can add the next protein which is usually turkey. Again, once the stools are normal you then add the third protein, then the fourth, etc. I think most raw feeders try to have a rotation of at least 4 different proteins, but the more variety you can feed them the better. I've been feeding raw since last August when my boy Logan started having problems on kibble. To date I've fed him the following proteins: chicken, turkey, lamb, beef, pork, rabbit, and fish. All were added slowly one at a time.

When I switched both of my boxers over to raw they both lost weight, but as already mentioned once they started getting red meats they put it back on. Right now they're weight has been steady and they both look great! They're lean as boxers should be.


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## lucasanti (Feb 21, 2013)

MollyWoppy said:


> It seems that I've heard about of a lot of boxers that have trouble keeping weight on.
> How much does she weigh and how much (weight) a day are you feeding her? Is her poop ok?
> Is there any particular reason why you grind her food? Is chicken the main source of protein so far? Have you added in organs of any type yet?
> Sorry for all the questions, just need a bit more background......


Thanks for the tip about the article on PMR, naturalfeddogs,

mollywoopy, 

She weighs about 53 lbs. She's a little on the small side anyway but when we brought her to the vet last year, she was at 59lbs and the vet said this was her ideal weight.
She gets fed a little over 4 cups of food a day including protein.
I guess I just figured it would be easier for her to eat if it was ground. Kind of built a habit around it but also prob. not nec.
I have not mixed in organ meats yet, but was unaware of the necessity for more complex proteins until I came here. The guy at the pet store did not say anything about changing and introducing proteins in stages so I'm glad I finally decided to do some research.
Her poops are quite regular in appearance and consistency from what I can tell, although she does go 3-4 times a day. We go through a lot of bags.

Thanks for the response!


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## MollyWoppy (Mar 19, 2010)

Oki doki. As a starter, I think you should probably feed her 3% of her ideal weight of 59lbs and if she keeps losing weight, start to increase her daily intake. 3% is approx 1.8lbs of meat/bones/organ per day at an approximate 80%/10%/10%. All dogs are different, my dog probably is 65/30/5% ratio, that is what seems to work for her. It all boils down to knowing thy dog, thats the best advice I can give you. If her poop is too hard we will increase the meat content or add in some skin/fat. Too soft means she'll need a bit more bone for a while.
Now, remember that 1.8lbs is just a base figure. I know I've read of Boxers on here that eat about 8% of their weight every day just to keep weight on, so it's going to be a month or two of trial and error before you learn exactly how your dog ticks and how much you need to feed.
Remember, too much food can make their poop soft so it's a fine line to tread.
As she seems to be use to raw ground chicken, and if you do want to make the change to PMR, I think I would be inclined to fast her overnight for 12 hours, and the next morning give her a chicken quarter, bone in, with the skin and fat cut off. Watch her and make sure she crunches the bone properly and doesn't try to gulp it all in one go. If she does, hold it so she has to chew it slowly.
Then, that night, another chicken drumstick or thigh, bone in, no skin, no fat and lets just see how she does. Watch the poop. Don't panic if she doesn't poop the first day, it's been known to take a dog a couple of days to poop when introduced to bone. Poop is the secret. With chicken it will be light coloured. In most cases, the density will tell you how much bone you fed. Bone is a stool hardener, organ softens the stool.
It's a slow process, but the process a bit quicker with your pup seeing she's use to ground raw. 

Have a read of the PMR starting sites Naturalfeddogs posted above, they go into a lot more detail than what I can write here. 
So you know, my dog has been on solely PMR for nearly 5 years now, no carbs, no veges, nothing other than various raw meats/bone/organ, salmon oil, coconut oil, fish and eggs. And, no dentals. I get yearly complete blood panels and urinalsis done by my doubting vet to make sure she is not lacking any vital minerals or vitamins and everything has come back A1 perfect so far.
Anyway, I'm carrying on too much, but do something along these lines. We are all here to help and, we have all been there and done that, been through the worry, the panic, the doubts that you are doing the right thing for you dog so we have probably already asked every question you can think of.


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## pogo (Aug 28, 2011)

I have heard boxers have very high metabolisms so need a higher percent off food to maintain their weight.

Also don't fret over seeing ribs you can see the ribs on my boys and i purposely keep them that way, i prefer a very lean, healthy dog


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## Mandy (Aug 30, 2012)

My boxers are very active when I'm home, but when I'm at work they sleep. I actually set up a web cam to check on them during the day. Every time I look they're snoozing. When I get home they are nonstop through most of the evening though. The same thing on weekends.

I think mine look perfect as they are now. Logan gets roughly 1.5lb of food daily (I used 75lb as his ideal adult body weight) and Abby gets roughly 1.3lb of food daily (I used 65lb as her ideal adult body weight). Sometimes they get a bit more, sometimes a bit less. I can see their ribs when they move certain ways, but I think they look lean and fit. Boxers are supposed to be lean and fit.

Lucasanti, is there a way that you can post some pics of your girl? From both sides and above so we can see her waist line. When I was nervous about my being too thin I posted pics and was reassured he looked fine.


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## lucasanti (Feb 21, 2013)

Mandy, I hope these help. Thanks for the responses everyone!


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## Mandy (Aug 30, 2012)

Thanks for posting some pics. I'd say she needs to put some weight on for sure. I would start following the PMR guidelines right away and get some red meats into her. With my Logan he lost some weight when he was getting just chicken and even though it's not suggested, I added beef as his 2nd protein (slowly - 3oz for the first few meals and gradually increased that amount until he could have a full beef meal) because it was the easiest, cheapest, and most convenient and he did fine with it. I could not find turkey that wasn't enhanced and I felt more comfortable feeding beef than I did pork in the beginning (now he gets both regularly). He put his lost weight back on pretty fast. Again, I want to say that adding beef as the 2nd protein wasn't advised because he has a sensitive tummy and beef is a richer red meat (which can cause loose stools in the beginning as they adjust), but I took it slow and he did fine with it. Maybe something for you to consider.


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## lucasanti (Feb 21, 2013)

Mandy, when you say slowly, how slow is a good rule of thumb for introducing new proteins? I'm going to look for other sources of protein today to get her back on track. My avatar has her a few lbs overweight so there's a huge disparity between the then and now. Also, how do you know if a certain meat is enhanced? Is it because the packaging says "natural flavors added"? Thanks!


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## Mandy (Aug 30, 2012)

When I was transitioning both of my dogs to new proteins I'd give them 3oz once daily for 4 or 5 days along with their bone in meals (since the bone helps to firm up their stools) and then I'd give them a day or two off and then I'd up it to 5-6oz and use the same time table. There may be a better way (and hopefully someone will chime in if there is), but this is what I did and it worked well for me and my boxers. 

If there are any added salts, seasonings, flavoring, broth, etc then it's enhanced and not good for dogs. The only turkey I could find here (besides ground) is all enhanced (stored in a broth solution). You basically want to look for the words "natural" on the packaging when possible, but still watch the salt content. I can't remember off the top of my head what the magic number is, but if salt is too high it's no good for our dogs.


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## naturalfeddogs (Jan 6, 2011)

Its around 75 mg sodium or lower in the enhancement, if you have to feed it enhanced. It can be hard sometimes to find that amount depending on where you are located.


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## Mandy (Aug 30, 2012)

Just checking in to see how your girl is doing. Drop a line when you can. I hope all is well!


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## lucasanti (Feb 21, 2013)

Thank for checking in Mandy. I took Sasha to the vet today and it didn't go well. The vet made me feel like a real jerk for how much weight Sasha had lost. She also said that none of the vets in the clinic we go to advocate raw feeding. Something about salmonella. I feel like I'm back to square one with the feeding. Since we really can't feasibly do PMR feeding due to availability of meat sources and not having a freezer to house the stuff in, I may transition her back to kibble and see if she'll gain any weight back. She was weighed at 50.6 lbs today so she's 14% down from her optimal body weight of 58. I opted to have her blood and urine screens done today which set me back a couple hundred but I have to know if there is anything else going on with her. Fingers crossed that those come back normal.


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## Herzo (Feb 5, 2011)

How about trying maybe half and half. That way you don't have to go back to all kibble. I do that for 2 of my 4, I do not mix it but sled dog people do all the time myself I feed twice a day so I will do one meal kibble with a topper then I may feed them something raw. Granted my one is a hound and they are usually iron guts but my other is a pit bull and I have seen no problems with it at all.

I read in your first post that you were feeding sojos (sp) I know I have heard of it but can't rightly think are they like Honest Kitchen? I hate to see you go back to all kibble because you were looking for something better.

Yes all chicken has salmonella but did you happen to ask the vets about the salmonella in kibble. Most dogs can handle it unless they have a compromised immune system. Vets have a way of making us feel like jerks but they are people to and most of them know nothing about raw. 

I do hope her blood tests come back good keep us updated.


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## Dude and Bucks Mamma (May 14, 2011)

There are very few vets who should be taken seriously when it comes to food. Many will make you feel terrible for feeding certain foods, even some kibbles. Nutrition is not taught in vet school like it should be. So many issues have roots in nutrition so it has always surprised me that vets aren't required to know more. That being said, there ARE vets out there who do know their stuff. They don't necessarily need to be holistic vets or raw feeding vets but a vet needs to be chosen very carefully. If your vet makes you feel like a jerk for the way you feed and you aren't feeding your dog something ridiculous like a vegan diet then perhaps you should consider keeping an eye out for a new vet. It's what I would do in your shoes.

Anyhow, it's normal for dogs to lose weight on chicken based raw but I don't know much about Sojos food. If your dog was mine I would start her on PMR but skip the just poultry phase and begin adding small bits of red meat in with the poultry right away just to get the weight back on her. If you don't think you can do just PMR then consider at least half like Herzo said. That way she will still be getting the benefits of raw while helping you keep the amount of raw meat you need to feed down a bit. We feed three large breed dogs full PMR but we also live in a place where getting raw meat isn't incredibly difficult. If you need a freezer you can always check Craigslist. We found a wonderful, huge, upright freezer for pretty cheap. We live in an apartment too so it sits in the front room next to the kitchen but, then again, I would put a freezer i my bedroom if I had to. Hahaha. 

I hope it's just a food issue with your girl and the bloodwork all comes back A-ok!


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