# Murph update



## meggels (May 30, 2010)

Murph has been back on raw for a few weeks and is doing great! I had him on Back to Basics kibble but just didn't feel right about it, so I found a good compromise in doing premade raw. He's back on Vital Essentials which is 99% meat/bone/organ and 1% kelp. 

I was adding in a little green beans or peas but haven't in several days. I've noticed since adding beef to his diet, he's filled out a bit, but is still lean, so that's great  


Beef formula:

Beef, beef tripe, beef lung, ground beef bone, beef liver, beef heart, beef kidney, beef blood, beef fat, herring oil (natural source of vitamin D), d-alpha tocopherol (natural vitamin E), mixed tocopherols (natural antioxidant)


Chicken formula:

Ground chicken with bone, chicken heart, chicken liver, herring oil (natural source of vitamin D), d-alpha tocopherol (natural vitamin E), mixed tocopherols (natural antioxidant)



Now, when I eventually add in fish, I think I will go outside of using Vital Essentials. This is their fish formula:

Whole, cold-water, Lake Superior Cisco, mixed tocopherols (natural antioxidant), d-alpha tocopherol, (natural vitamin E) .


I thought that when I posted this awhile ago, someone mentioned that Cisco isn't really a great fish. I was thinking of what else I could use....canned fish? Sardines? Mackerel? What else comes in a can that would be a better option?



I also plan to still do RMB's like chicken necks for meals instead of the premade chicken as much.


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## Caty M (Aug 13, 2010)

Salmon or mackerel but it's usually with salt added.. the better option would be to cook it yourself. Just pan sear it, or feed the whole fishy raw if you want. My dogs eat herring because they are meal sized.


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## CorgiPaws (Mar 31, 2009)

I'm so confused.


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## Scarlett_O' (May 19, 2011)

I agree with Caty!:smile:

I would look into getting whole, or as close to whole as possible, fish from your local ethnic market and going that rout!:thumb:

For "RMBs"(UGH, I actually tend to hate that term!LOL) I would suggest something with more substance!:wink: Turkey necks, or wings or something...for 1. thing that way Abbie can have some as well...and 2. I cant even imagine that Murph would be able to get all that much use out of chicken necks tooth/gum wise!LOL


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## chowder (Sep 7, 2008)

If you want to continue with a pre-made you could use Primal Grinds. They make a sardine grind:

Sardine Grind 

Ingredients: Whole Sardines (Includes bones and innards).

Someone on this forum was using them at one time for their fish. I usually give my guys canned salmon and sardines, but Chelsy had horrible fish allergies so she was limited to herring or a bit of tuna. My guys don't care for 'real' fish very much but go crazy over canned fish. I'm going to have to start mixing some real fish with canned since my guys are so big. With your's being a little dog, you could get away with using a pre-made or canned I would imagine.


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## Caty M (Aug 13, 2010)

Actually I agree with Abi.. turkey necks are much better than chicken if you can get them. They take my guys forever to eat and after they are gone I notice that any small amount of yellow on the gumline of Bishop's canines is gone.


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## meggels (May 30, 2010)

I can get both turkey and duck necks.


I can't give Abbie any  I gave her ONE TINY chicken neck once, and I came home the next day to diarrhea all over the apartment...


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## meggels (May 30, 2010)

Linsey- about what??


I'm not looking to get into an argument though about what I'm choosing for Murph. I've found something that is working for both he and I.


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## DaneMama (Jun 27, 2008)

meggels said:


> I can get both turkey and duck necks.
> 
> 
> I can't give Abbie any  I gave her ONE TINY chicken neck once, and I came home the next day to diarrhea all over the apartment...


The fact that she had diarrhea after one chicken neck doesn't surprise me, lots of dogs get diarrhea when switching over. I'm sure she would do fine if you adjusted her to raw the right way. 

Glad that Murph is doing better. I would go with the sardine grind if you're wanting to stay with premade stuff.


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## meggels (May 30, 2010)

And sorry if that sounded defensive. I just am happy with what his routine is right now and he's doing really well.


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## meggels (May 30, 2010)

DaneMama said:


> The fact that she had diarrhea after one chicken neck doesn't surprise me, lots of dogs get diarrhea when switching over. I'm sure she would do fine if you adjusted her to raw the right way.
> 
> Glad that Murph is doing better. I would go with the sardine grind if you're wanting to stay with premade stuff.



I think Abi meant giving her the necks as a treat though. So if she's still on kibble...I'm afraid she'll keep getting the diarrhea even if I try to give her the neck as a treat. Ugh...that was the worst day when I opened my apartment door...and the smell hit...and...okay sorry. it was gross, we'll leave it at that lol. Same thing happened when I gave her a measly tablespoon of canned food. Luckily, I was home to keep bringing her outside so she could go...


I put Abbie on a new kibble (in another thread) cause her coat was going to hell. And she's always gotten compliments on her gorgeous coat, so I think the NB was to blame! I'm going to be paying for it, and getting free kibble was nice, but I could really see/feel the difference when we were in puppy class on Monday night and she was sitting on my lap. So she's on Eearthborn HOlistic's bison grain free right now and then will be rotating with other grain free higher meat content kibbles  Acana, maybe Nature's Variety Instinct, maybe Pinnacle's GF, Fromm...


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## meggels (May 30, 2010)

Oh, and I'm open to (and hoping to) adding in "real" raw to his diet. He gets duck necks whenever we go to my guru's store (he gets spoiled rotten and fed like the piglet he is when we are down there working) and it doesn't throw his stool off at all. So I'd like to supplement with "real" cuts of meat. I can do duck and turkey necks for sure, he sells those for about 1.50/lb.


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## monkeys23 (Dec 8, 2010)

I was feeding Primal Sardine grind for fish. It stank worse than tripe. I stopped because my dogs really didn't like it at all, but if yours liked it Primal certainly produces a quality product. :smile:


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

we fed primal sardines.
my dogs liked that better than they like the real deal....

but they eat mackerel, herring, sardines and i'm looking in to dried anchovies.....that aren't salted.

for your formulas.....maybe check with the manufacturer to see how much liver murph will be getting, since he's eating once or twice a day so he's getting heart and liver once or twice a day.....and that could be a little rich...i'd also check to see from where the vitamin e is obtained, because much of tocopherols are soy based...


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## whiteleo (Sep 7, 2008)

monkeys23 said:


> I was feeding Primal Sardine grind for fish. It stank worse than tripe. I stopped because my dogs really didn't like it at all, but if yours liked it Primal certainly produces a quality product. :smile:


I have to say, my dogs wouldn't touch the primal fish grind, I bought a case through our co-op when I first started out and just got rid of the last of it. I know some dogs go crazy for it though...They do sell "no salt added" canned salmon at Trader Joes in the smaller size cans which is another option.


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## tem_sat (Jun 20, 2010)

Scarlett_O' said:


> I agree with Caty!:smile:
> 
> I would look into getting whole, or as close to whole as possible, fish from your local ethnic market and going that rout!:thumb:
> 
> For "RMBs"(UGH, I actually tend to hate that term!LOL) I would suggest something with more substance!:wink: Turkey necks, or wings or something...for 1. thing that way Abbie can have some as well...and 2. I cant even imagine that Murph would be able to get all that much use out of chicken necks tooth/gum wise!LOL


Agreed 1,000,000%.

When I was feeding combo 60-40 PMR / Acana, chicken wings were not sufficient for teeth cleaning. I wouldn't ever consider feeding chicken necks to a dog the size of Murph and expecting those to do the job. Turkey necks RULE. You need to realize it's the time spent crunching them that makes the difference. They are big and thick and have the perfect texture for scrubbing teeth clean. 

Also, regarding fish, you want to feed whole if possible. So, for example, I found whole mackerel for about $5.50 per pound at Whole Foods in the fish department. Yes, that is a bit high, but for the occasional once per month splurge, that allows you to feed the head, tail, etc. to Murph. Fish heads are great for teeth too!


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## tem_sat (Jun 20, 2010)

meggels said:


> I can do duck and turkey necks for sure, he sells those for about 1.50/lb.


I pay 69 cents per pound for a 30 pound case of turkey necks. I would suggest shopping around for a better price for turkey necks.


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## meggels (May 30, 2010)

magicre said:


> we fed primal sardines.
> my dogs liked that better than they like the real deal....
> 
> but they eat mackerel, herring, sardines and i'm looking in to dried anchovies.....that aren't salted.
> ...



Do you mean too rich for his stools? His stools are rock solid haha.


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## meggels (May 30, 2010)

tem_sat said:


> I pay 69 cents per pound for a 30 pound case of turkey necks. I would suggest shopping around for a better price for turkey necks.


All the places I contacted int he area about them would require a 30lb case, which I don't have room for. Where I can get them from now, I can buy as little as one neck, or as many as I like.


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## Scarlett_O' (May 19, 2011)

I did mean as a treat, or supplement yes....



But as for the Primal...I TOTALLY forgot about them...my guys all LOVE it...the kitties and pup-pups ALL LOVE the sardine grind that we got from Robin...in fact I would say that all of them would GLADLY THANK Robin's dogs for not liking it!!LOL :lol:


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## meggels (May 30, 2010)

I can't imagine Murph not liking anything edible, he's a glutton.


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

meggels said:


> Do you mean too rich for his stools? His stools are rock solid haha.


if the amount is more than what he needs, then diarrhea would be the least of your concerns...since liver is full of fat soluble vitamins that do not excrete as do water soluble vitamins.....

the idea is balance over time and approximately 5% of his diet will be liver and the other 5% will be another organ.

so no. diarrhea was not what i was talking about.


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## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

My dogs like everything, but fish doesn't seem to agree with them. Maybe I'll try the sardine stuff.

I haven't found any sardines without salt. I bought some the other day with the plan to soak them in water. They tolerate sardines better than anything else.


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## meggels (May 30, 2010)

I will send an email and ask how much liver is in the formulas.


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## meggels (May 30, 2010)

You guys have my paranoid now. Sigh.


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## Scarlett_O' (May 19, 2011)

meggels said:


> You guys have my paranoid now. Sigh.


That is one of, if not the BIGGEST, reason that most of us do not like pre-made raw!hwell:


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## meggels (May 30, 2010)

Cause you don't know the percentage?


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## Scarlett_O' (May 19, 2011)

meggels said:


> Cause you don't know the percentage?


Yep, and not knowing percentages can lead to MANY things, from too much or not enough bone to issues with too much or not enough organs/liver/etc....


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## Caty M (Aug 13, 2010)

It's harder to fix every problem on pre-made. If there is loose stools, you can't add more bone. If the stools are dusty, you certainly can't take bone away. Every dog is different so may not all do well on premades.


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

the intent wasn't to make you paranoid.....

the intent is to let you see how easy it is to feed a dog raw and how we can complicate things by letting someone else calculate for us.

my dog eats 6 oz per day.

x 7 days a week, he eats 42 oz per week.

10% of what he eats is organs.....5% is liver which comes out to 2.1 oz per week and the other 5% is any other organ besides liver which comes out to 2.1 oz.

that's me calculating what my dog gets.....and that's easy....and then i know exactly what my dog is eating.

when it comes to fat soluble vitamins, care should be taken and it's a simple case of mathematics...and once properly introduced, then it's easy.

if you 'mess up'.....it's not going to hurt murph....especially if you mess up by giving a little bit less ....but giving too much over a long period of time...or feeding only one protein forever and ever.....or not giving any variety because you're scared....

don't be scared...the only thing you can do badly with murph is to not ask questions and not experiment, not make mistakes so you learn.....

it's really not complicated....

mostly meat, a little bit of bone, and a little bit of organ....as much variety as you can afford...that's it.


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## meggels (May 30, 2010)

I just got so sick of skinning chicken wings and drumsticks and beating things. I like the ease of premade, even if that's "bad".


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## Scarlett_O' (May 19, 2011)

meggels said:


> I just got so sick of skinning chicken wings and drumsticks and beating things. I like the ease of premade, even if that's "bad".


I cant imagine "beating" anything....even with my 9# dog and 2 cats I dont have to hammer anything!hwell:


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## meggels (May 30, 2010)

I would beat drumsticks so I could cut them in half, because he had a hard time with them.


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## Scarlett_O' (May 19, 2011)

meggels said:


> I would beat drumsticks so I could cut them in half, because he had a hard time with them.


We didnt use drum sticks for the "smaller" dogs till they were farther along with raw, and when I did I just smashed them a couple times and left it to them....whole chickens were fed TOTALLY thru without using the drumsticks(they were either saved for another time, given to the big dogs or eaten by humans) and the rest was fed. The rest of the bird has MORE then enough bone for them without having to feed the drumstick. And it is easy to prep one week at a time, you would have less then 4lbs per week to prep, so a decent sized bird would work!:wink: 

I just prepped(TOTALLY removed the skin and fat, organs from)over 40lbs of chicken backs....NOTHING beats that!!LOL


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## meggels (May 30, 2010)

le sigh


Could I just use chicken necks instead? I like the chicken necks lol. 

Like, what about chicken necks, ground beef, roasts, duck and turkey necks? And then some sort of fish.


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

meghan....you have to pick your comfort level and be prepared to live with whatever that comfort level is.

if pre made lets you sleep at night, find the best one out on the market....and do that....

there are worse things in life...than not wanting to take skin and fat and kidneys off chicken backs for a month or so....


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## werecatrising (Oct 15, 2010)

When I had my cats on pre made they were getting the "batches" from this company.
smallbatch pets
I was happy wit their products. I didn't get the blends, but the all meat mixes. Maybe if you contact them they can tell you the actual percentages.


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## meggels (May 30, 2010)

I just hate that I want the best for him. I drive myself to neurosis wanting the absolute best for him.


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## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

meggels said:


> I just hate that I want the best for him. I drive myself to neurosis wanting the absolute best for him.


What do you think is the best for him? Pre-made? If you truly believe that, then be happy with your decision and find the best pre-made you can.

You seem to fret over this alot. You know what most people who feed raw think the best is. Everyone is here because they want the very best for their dogs.

You are feeding part kibble, part raw, and part pre-made raw. I kind of think you are overthinking and end up not really able to make a decision on what really is the best.

In your heart, i think you know what the best really is.


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## meggels (May 30, 2010)

I do, I just think it's a pain in the butt lol.


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

meggels said:


> I just hate that I want the best for him. I drive myself to neurosis wanting the absolute best for him.


not to mention what you do to us LOL.....just teasing.

we all drive ourselves crazy, but there comes a point where we have to consider the facts...

take into account what you can do, both emotionally and financially.....and then you do what you can do.

if you're not feeling secure that you can give him a balanced diet putting it together on your own, then feed pre made. it's still raw.....or you can feed one pre made meal and one real meal if you like...

you have to be true to yourself, no matter what is said.....and everything that is said is said to help you and your dog.....but in the end, you do what you gotta go so that you sleep at night and unless you're doing something to hurt him...which you are not....stop worrying about the ideal and settle for 'it'll do'......


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## Sprocket (Oct 4, 2011)

No one said owning dogs was easy 

Good luck with whatever you choose.


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## Scarlett_O' (May 19, 2011)

I've got to agree with Emily......that and the fact that I'm feeding 6 (soon to be 7:winkpet carnivores!!:tongue1:


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## Liz (Sep 27, 2010)

You are right in that it is not easy but it can be alot easier than we sometimes make it. I never crush or skin even for tiny puppies. We use duck necks, turkey necks, cornish game hen, pork ribs, whole chickens, chicken backs, beef ribs, beef trime, heart of all kinds, lung and liver, etc. My smallest sheltie is 7 pounds. She can plow through anything. I take about 2 hours per month and package a bulk purchase, then all I do is defrost enough for several days in the fridge. 

I uset o go crazy checking kibble percentages, new kibble, better kibble, trying to figure out what I could afford. Now I buy whatever meat I can afford that month and they eat great, looks great and are super healthy and happy and I don't worry that what I feed isn't as good as the other bag. Anyway, JMHO:biggrin:


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## swolek (Mar 31, 2011)

I just wanted to add that my dogs loved the Primal sardine grind so it's definitely an option . I only stopped feeding it because the raw food delivery company in my area shut down so it became easier to order whole sardines and herrings (which are great quality fish) from Hare-Today.


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## Dude and Bucks Mamma (May 14, 2011)

tem_sat said:


> I pay 69 cents per pound for a 30 pound case of turkey necks. I would suggest shopping around for a better price for turkey necks.


We pay about the same from our local butcher. More and more butchers are willing to sell meat for dogs. Ours actually has a raw meat dog menu. We can get things like 60lb cases of beef heart for $67, cases of chicken backs/necks for less than 50c/lb. Our turkey necks are somewhere around the same as tem_sat's. 

For fish, we feed fresh, whole fish whenever possible but since we are poor, it isn't always an option. That's when we buy canned or tinned sardines/mackerel in water. If we have to, on occasion we will buy the fish with salt in it but that doesn't happen very often. We try to avoid the salted fish like the plague. I will only buy the salted stuff when I get worried about the lack of Omega-3s. I think I have only bought salted fish for them once. I save that option for fish "emergencies".

See if you can find a co-op. Ours here has been great even though I have only ordered from them twice. You'll meet lots of other like minded people in your area. I met Abi through a combination of our co-op and DFC. I was on here and had just joined the co-op and she messaged me asking about my chicken necks order. She picked mine up and I met up with her to get them. She has been an immense help ever since!


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## CorgiPaws (Mar 31, 2009)

I was confused because I had no idea you switched him... again. I can't keep up!! lol

I think that we can easily over complicate things with PMR. I know I did in the beginning. My first 10 lb bag of chicken quarters took me THREE HOURS to prep, now I can do almost 800lbs in that amount of time. Literally! It gets better, I promise. 

As for the wacking and skinning: stop wacking. Necks are absolutely fine. Cornish hens and ducks are also really really easy bone. 

It's also perfectly OK for dogs to have a "hard time" with some cuts. Meal time shouldn't always be a two second affair. I actually try to buy things that take them longer, like lamb necks. That gnawing, ripping, tearing, and chewing is great for mental stimulation and dental benefits. Sometimes Annie can take over an hour to eat dinner, THAT'S OK! In fact... that's GREAT! DOn't skin so much. A little loose stool isn't the end of the world, and that's how they adjust!


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## meggels (May 30, 2010)

So I should leave skin on?? And just hope he doesn't get the cannon butt? 



Like I said, I can't buy in bulk due to space, so I don't particularly mind just buying from my guy. he has beef ribs, duck/turkey/chicken necks and probably other stuff that I'm not aware of. 


I like chicken necks lol. Those were great little meals for him. 


Okay, I have like...maybe 2 weeks worth of premade left, maybe I will start adding in more cuts of meat and give it a go PMR style again. SIGH.


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## Ania's Mommy (Feb 8, 2009)

meggels said:


> So I should leave skin on?? And just hope he doesn't get the cannon butt?


When we started Ania, we left all skin and fat on the chicken. She didn't have any issues. I think that most dogs don't. 

However, some still do. And people in general tend to fly off the handle and give up on raw at the slightest sign of trouble. So the recommendation to skin/de-fat comes from a preventative maintenance standpoint. We WANT people to stick with raw because we think it's the best thing.

If your dog has shown digestive issues in the past, you may want to skin/de-fat. If not, well, try feeding skin & fat inclusive meat and see how it works. 

By the way, loose stools isn't the end of the world. It's... loose... stools. Do YOU freak out when your poo is less than stellar & stop eating whatever it was that made them that way? Probably not. It's not really different with dogs.


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## tem_sat (Jun 20, 2010)

meggels said:


> So I should leave skin on?? And just hope he doesn't get the cannon butt?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I, meggels, solemnly swear to feed my very cute Murph nothing but Prey Model Raw by the book from Jan 5, 2012 until Feb 5, 2012. I promise to transition my Murph to the point where he will be fed something other than chicken so that I may see how he does on other proteins. I also promise to not freak out over the occasional bout of "cannon butt", as I realize that this is part and parcel of transitioning.

Said document shall be placed in public records and hereby witnessed by all members of D.F.C.

Date: December 22, 2011 


_________________________
Ms. Meggels


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## frogdog (Aug 10, 2011)

Meggels, I followed Prey Model Raw to the "T" and Yogi did fantastic. The following was his first several weeks on raw...no cannon butt.

1st wk...chicken backs only - no skin or fat
2nd wk...alternated with chicken quarters and backs - no skin or fat
3rd wk...introduced salmon slowly alternating with back and quarters - added skin and fat slowly

I don't know if this is the reason Yogi never experienced any upset but no issues. Remember go SLOW. 

Glad to hear you're giving it a go, again!


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## Dude and Bucks Mamma (May 14, 2011)

I would definitely try PMR again. You just have to remember that you may have some issues. A lot of us did. Dude had a bit of cannon butt and he did spray all over my carpet one day after Nick and I had a miscommunication and both of us were feeding him boneless meals. That may well be the way Abbie is. I honestly think you should just switch them both. Even after dealing with cannon butt, I will NEVER feed another dog kibble again. It has been WELL worth the effort and the extra cleaning supplies. All it takes is some baking soda cleaner in a big yellow spray bottle to get it out


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## meggels (May 30, 2010)

Jesse, I have tinkered with the idea of just switching her, in the past few days. I lay in bed at night and think about it lol.


Thanks guys, I will try to be incorporating more PMR style feedings into his diet. 


Funny thing, last night i had a dream that Abbie had plaque on her teeth and I said in my dream "I need to give her more bones!" LOL.


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## whiteleo (Sep 7, 2008)

I'm glad your going to try this again...


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## Dude and Bucks Mamma (May 14, 2011)

And, as I said before, we are in a boat very much like yours! We don't have a chest freezer and we don't have a lot of money but we still make it work. We can't buy in bulk either. And we have TWO big dogs. And dammit, I want a third! I met a freaking Wirehaired Pointing Griffon pup today... Puppy fever!!!!

Anyhow, I am MORE than willing to help you figure out how to do it with limited money and space.


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## 3Musketeers (Nov 4, 2010)

If drumsticks are too much work, feed another cut which isn't. If necks are the easiest thing to feed, feed them. In the end, chicken is chicken is chicken, no one cut is superior to another, the difference is the ratio of bone:meat in each cut. You can start with necks and move onto drumsticks as his jaw strength improves, and you can leave the skin and fat on once he can tolerate higher amounts of fat. Or you can stay on necks forever (while providing variety) if that is what works for you.

I bought a big pork shoulder roast once, with skin and bone, because it was cheap. Let me tell you, cutting through the skin and removing the meat from the bone and then cutting it all into meal sized portions was a nightmare. I never bought one again, they now get pork ribs since they are much easier to cut and portion.

Just go with what works for you. Don't feel like you HAVE to buy drumsticks instead of necks or you're doing it wrong, cause you're not.


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## meggels (May 30, 2010)

So I found out today that the Vital Essentials is 45% organ. 


Now, I'm guessing that is making most of you go "oh sh*t!"...

But my question is. In the wild, wouldn't wolves that are higher up in the pack. aka the "Alpha", be getting the best of the meal, which I thought was the organ meat? So they wouldn't be getting just 10% organ in their diet? And aren't the alpha's typically the healthiest because they eat the best?


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## Caty M (Aug 13, 2010)

45% is much too high. I feed 5-15% in any given week. Liver contains a ton of vitamin A which is toxic in large amounts. I don't feel that's healthy.. period.


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## Scarlett_O' (May 19, 2011)

I don't remember what the ing list was, but are hearts included in their "organ" list...or do they count them as meat as they should be?


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## Dude and Bucks Mamma (May 14, 2011)

Wolves don't eat as often and do more work for their food and for their own survival than your average house dog though. I don't know exactly what the alpha wolves will choose to eat but I doubt it is all organ.


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## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

Scarlett_O' said:


> I don't remember what the ing list was, but are hearts included in their "organ" list...or do they count them as meat as they should be?


That's an excellent question.

Because even with all the organs I feed Snorkels, it's not almost half her food. And I feed a much higher percentage of organs to her than most people.


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## meggels (May 30, 2010)

We are gonna use up what we have and then go PMR style.


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