# REALLY need advice!



## Donna Little (May 31, 2011)

My little guy Tommy has been eating raw for close to 6 weeks now and for the first time since I've had him he's eager to eat. He's very old and not in good health, late stages of dementia as well as possible cancer. So, when he started on raw he weighed just at 3.8 lbs and is quite underweight. He gained one oz in the beginning but started losing again. I'm giving him 3 or 4 meals a day to spread it out and not have too much food hit his stomach at once. That has been working well in regards that he hasn't had any tummy problems at all. I'm feeding him WAY more than my other dogs in relation to his size and he's continuing to lose weight. He got something stuck in his foot yesterday so had to go to the vet and he was down to from 3.8 to 2.13 from last month. I was shocked. He doesn't look like he's lost that much so I was hoping their scale was wrong. When I got home I weighed him on my scale and unfortunately it was correct. This little guy is eagerly eating 3 oz of food per day and that's all he weighs! I asked the vet if she thought his weight loss had to be cancer related and she said maybe but not neccessarily. That sometimes old dogs just lose muscle mass and fat. How is this possible when he eats so well? 
What I want to know is if there's anything I can do to help him stop losing. He eats mostly chicken but has had tripe and venison and all is still great with his digestion. Can I up his meals at all or add in another or would that just be way too much. He is still looking for more food when he eats everyday but I'm scared to press my luck. I know my time with him is limited but I want to give him the best. He usually gets a meal of either venison or tripe 2 or 3 times a week so should I add more of that? I have ground up eggshell to add to it if needed to keep his poop firm so would that be better?


----------



## Ania's Mommy (Feb 8, 2009)

Has he been tested for worms?


----------



## Donna Little (May 31, 2011)

Yes. He was at the vet for a check up on June 22 and I had them do a fecal. I actually got concerned that maybe he had a parasite anyway and went ahead and dewormed "just in case" anything was missed.


----------



## RawFedDogs (Jun 16, 2008)

Yes, I'd feed more venison and up the size of his meals some.


----------



## Donna Little (May 31, 2011)

Thank you, I'll start adding a tiny bit more with each meal tonight.


----------



## hcdoxies (Sep 22, 2010)

Wouldn't venison, being so lean, actually have the opposite effect? When I had a free venison source, I fed it for about 4 months straight (along with organ and chicken necks) and had to up my dogs by 1-2% (mini dachshunds) because the venison was so lean that they were losing weight.

If you're looking to feed a red meat, wouldn't beef be a better option (for weigh gain)?


----------



## DoglovingSenior (Jun 26, 2011)

Is he vomiting?


----------



## Donna Little (May 31, 2011)

No he isn't vomiting and his poop is great. When he was on kibble he pooped every day but now it's every other day and is slightly smaller than in the past. I would be inclined to think that means his body is using what goes in so that should be a good thing. 
@hcdoxies, I don't know about the venison being a bad choice for weight gain but that won't be the staple of what he gets but just an addition to what he's already getting. Because he hasn't been eating raw for very long and is so delicate I don't want to go to fast in giving too many different things. I am going to the market this week though and plan to buy some beef. If he continues doing okay (with the food) I'll try giving him some of that in a couple of weeks. He's eating better than he's eaten in the entire time he's been with me so I hate to see him wasting away.


----------



## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

has he had blood work?


----------



## Donna Little (May 31, 2011)

He had bloodwork done probably 6 months ago and they told me it looked perfect. I know things could have changed in the last few months but at this point I don't know that even if new bloodwork shows anything I could fix it. Today has been a bad day already for him and I think he's getting tired and that I'm going to have to let him go. I'm crying just thinking about it.


----------



## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

Donna Little said:


> He had bloodwork done probably 6 months ago and they told me it looked perfect. I know things could have changed in the last few months but at this point I don't know that even if new bloodwork shows anything I could fix it. Today has been a bad day already for him and I think he's getting tired and that I'm going to have to let him go. I'm crying just thinking about it.


you are in such a tough and terrible place right now.....since he's not having good days....and he's old...and losing weight...i think you may be right in that he's getting tired....

how old is he? not that age matters...it's quality of life that matters.....


----------



## Donna Little (May 31, 2011)

I don't really know his age. He was definitely a senior when I pulled him out of animal control almost 5 yrs ago. The vet guessed him to be in the neighborhood of 12 then.


----------



## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

Donna Little said:


> I don't really know his age. He was definitely a senior when I pulled him out of animal control almost 5 yrs ago. The vet guessed him to be in the neighborhood of 12 then.


that was a blessing for both of you when you pulled him out of animal control....he is an old man...and old men get tired....

only you can decide what's best for him....if he's eating and still losing weight....then feed him however much he can eat without it being an overfeed....

if he's tired in a way that means he's tired because he's old, that's one thing. but if you mean he's tired at that age where life is just getting to be a little much for him....then maybe he's trying to tell you something.

on the other hand, if he's able to hold his urine and still get up and walk over for a petting....it may well not yet be time...

but you are right. something is causing him to lose weight...although if his white count is normal, i would not suspect disease, since that's one
of the first changes with cancers and stuff...

he's an old, old man....and what i would do is stare him straight in the eyes, see if he's trying to tell you something....and go from there...it's a tough place you're in.....


----------



## Donna Little (May 31, 2011)

magicre said:


> that was a blessing for both of you when you pulled him out of animal control....he is an old man...and old men get tired....
> 
> only you can decide what's best for him....if he's eating and still losing weight....then feed him however much he can eat without it being an overfeed....
> 
> ...


Tommy has been a blessing to me in more ways than I could put into words. I love this tiny dog so much that it hurts. I think he is tired in the way that is telling me he needs to go. He has dementia so spends a lot of time pacing in a circle. It's not pleasant to watch because he can't seem to stop even when he needs to. There are days when he sleeps well and yesterday was a rare treat for me in that he slept on my chest for about 3 hours last night while I watched tv. I soaked it up as long as he rested and it was like a gift to me. Today has been a different story. He's been up almost all day with small 10 minute naps here and there. The pacing has been mostly in a tight circle that then makes him dizzy and so he falls and can't get back on his feet. I've been with him all day watching over him. He's walking in a circle beside me right now. I don't know what's in his mind but whatever is wrong it's not allowing him to rest like an old dog should be able to do. He doesn't cry as if he's physically in pain but I can't say that he isn't. 
I have actually done just what you said and looked into his face and asked if he needed to go. I think he would tell me yes if he could. He doesn't ask to be petted anymore or held but has been allowing this more in the last few days. I'm taking that as a sign that on some level he appreciates being stopped from the pacing and can take a few minutes to relax before struggling to be put down and the pacing resumes. I'm just having a very hard time with this.


----------



## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

Donna Little said:


> Tommy has been a blessing to me in more ways than I could put into words. I love this tiny dog so much that it hurts. I think he is tired in the way that is telling me he needs to go. He has dementia so spends a lot of time pacing in a circle. It's not pleasant to watch because he can't seem to stop even when he needs to. There are days when he sleeps well and yesterday was a rare treat for me in that he slept on my chest for about 3 hours last night while I watched tv. I soaked it up as long as he rested and it was like a gift to me. Today has been a different story. He's been up almost all day with small 10 minute naps here and there. The pacing has been mostly in a tight circle that then makes him dizzy and so he falls and can't get back on his feet. I've been with him all day watching over him. He's walking in a circle beside me right now. I don't know what's in his mind but whatever is wrong it's not allowing him to rest like an old dog should be able to do. He doesn't cry as if he's physically in pain but I can't say that he isn't.
> I have actually done just what you said and looked into his face and asked if he needed to go. I think he would tell me yes if he could. He doesn't ask to be petted anymore or held but has been allowing this more in the last few days. I'm taking that as a sign that on some level he appreciates being stopped from the pacing and can take a few minutes to relax before struggling to be put down and the pacing resumes. I'm just having a very hard time with this.


i'd worry if you weren't having a hard time with this....the passion in your voice as you talk about letting go of your friend....is so evident....and, as his friend, he's given you the answer you didn't want to hear, but you'll heed, because he is your friend.....and you are his.

just know that i speak for all of us and i think i can in this case, that we are all with you. we've all been where you are, dread where you're going, and offer a shoulder for you later....


----------



## Donna Little (May 31, 2011)

Thanks so much for your compassion. I know that everyone on this list probably feels the same way about their furry companions that I do and only wants what's best for them. Tommy finally fell asleep about 2 hours ago after being up all day. That's just not normal for a dog his age and has to be exhausting for him. The last thing I want is to lose him but I don't want to think he's suffering either. I just want to do the right thing.


----------



## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

Donna Little said:


> Thanks so much for your compassion. I know that everyone on this list probably feels the same way about their furry companions that I do and only wants what's best for them. Tommy finally fell asleep about 2 hours ago after being up all day. That's just not normal for a dog his age and has to be exhausting for him. The last thing I want is to lose him but I don't want to think he's suffering either. I just want to do the right thing.


i think you already know what the right thing is...and my heart breaks for you.


----------



## JayJayisme (Aug 2, 2009)

I'm sorry to hear about Tommy's deteriorating condition. You have clearly given him a warm and compassionate life, and probably saved him from a horrible fate 5 years ago. I'm sure whatever you decide to do at this stage will carefully take into account what is best for Tommy, regardless of how difficult a decision it is. You are obviously very much "in tune" with him.

I'm going to make a crazy suggestion but please consider it. Feed him more animal fat. If he has just been eating small chicken meals, and other lean meats, he could literally be starving. If you think I'm crazy, Google "rabbit starvation" for a little glimpse of how one can starve on plenty of meat if its too lean. And this is with humans, let alone dogs, which are carnivores and absolutely need animal fat in their diet.

I'm not promising any miracles. Obviously there is a lot going on here in an aging dog. But I would try adding small amounts of fat into his meals, and if he tolerates it, increase it little by little until 20 to 25% of his meal is fat. It may help him gain some weight, and it may provide some other health benefits. It seems like it would be worth a try under the circumstances, especially if he's still a good eater.

I wish you well, whatever you decide to do. But please keep us in-the-loop.

Jay


----------



## RachelsaurusRexU (Sep 4, 2010)

I don't really have anything to add that hasn't already been said, but I just wanted to send some hugs to you and your little fella. First of all, kudos to you for adopting a senior dog! Second, it is sooo obvious by the things you write that you absolutely adore him and cherish every single moment you've had together. I would put money on him returning the feeling. I know how you're feeling right now, it's a terrible decision to have to make. Just remember what a difference you've made in his life and that when you do make the difficult decision, whenever it may come to that, you'll be giving him another special gift. Remember that he'll always be with you in spirit and in your heart. ((Hugs))


----------



## Donna Little (May 31, 2011)

Thank you all for your kind words. He's actually been getting chicken quarters ground up into small chunks. He only has one tooth and is very weird about eating certain things if he doesn't like the texture of it. I've tried giving him slices of chicken and he doesn't care for it but will eat the ground with no problem. A friend has a grinder so I took it to her house and I would assume that cut of meat has plenty of fat in it so I don't think that's the problem.
His demetia is just to a point that I honestly feel like he's struggling so much that it would be in his best interest to be let go. Yesterday he paced literally all day and is doing it again right now. The reason I started him on raw was because he was losing weight and deteriorating so much and it was sort of my last hope. Even then he was getting a high calorie wet food with a little dab of nutracal in his evening meal just to add calories. That wasn't helping so there must be something physical going on that hasn't been detected. I do know what I need to do for him but I've just continued to hold on hoping that something would improve. I told him last night that if he was as restless today as he was yesterday that I would let him go. I'm coming to terms with it but am heartbroken at the thought of losing him.


----------



## Jynical (Jun 22, 2011)

Sending you lots of love and peace. It's heartbreaking to watch your friend deteriorate... whatever you decide, know that you aren't alone. <3


----------



## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

Donna Little said:


> Thank you all for your kind words. He's actually been getting chicken quarters ground up into small chunks. He only has one tooth and is very weird about eating certain things if he doesn't like the texture of it. I've tried giving him slices of chicken and he doesn't care for it but will eat the ground with no problem. A friend has a grinder so I took it to her house and I would assume that cut of meat has plenty of fat in it so I don't think that's the problem.
> His demetia is just to a point that I honestly feel like he's struggling so much that it would be in his best interest to be let go. Yesterday he paced literally all day and is doing it again right now. The reason I started him on raw was because he was losing weight and deteriorating so much and it was sort of my last hope. Even then he was getting a high calorie wet food with a little dab of nutracal in his evening meal just to add calories. That wasn't helping so there must be something physical going on that hasn't been detected. I do know what I need to do for him but I've just continued to hold on hoping that something would improve. I told him last night that if he was as restless today as he was yesterday that I would let him go. I'm coming to terms with it but am heartbroken at the thought of losing him.


do let us know. you sound a little more at peace today.....even though this is such a hard decision. jay had a good point to add fat to his diet to see if that would help. it's a long shot but maybe worth it.....if not, you know we're here for you.


----------



## Donna Little (May 31, 2011)

I spent the evening yesterday trying to prepare myself to put him down today. And I'm dogsitting for 2 former foster dogs that were leaving today. They were supposed to go home at 1 pm and I was pretty sure I had myself talked into taking him after that. Then shortly before 1 their owner texted me to say she'd just realized she'd told me the time she was arriving at her destination NOT the time she would be arriving back home and that she'd be here to pick her dogs up around 5 pm. Well, needless to say I wouldn't be able to make it to the vet after that and there was no way I was going to be able to stand there with her and chat right after losing my baby if I took him before she got here. So, now I'm driving myself crazy wondering if that was a sign that I should give him more time. I know that sounds a little stupid and I suppose I'm grasping at straws but now it's like the mental preparation that I went through to come to that decision is gone. I just guess I'm going to have to take it one hour at a time. 
Do you think with me already feeding him chicken quarters that it would be okay to add a little fat or am I asking for diarrhea? And if I do add fat, should I add a pinch of eggshell to give it a little more bone-like substance?


----------



## JayJayisme (Aug 2, 2009)

Doesn't sound stupid at all. This is one of the most difficult things a dog owner has to face in life. Nothing wrong with looking for signs that help guide your decision.

Don't over think the fat thing too much. Just add some fat and see what happens. The worse thing that can happen is loose stools but so what? If it persists, and it probably won't, add some bone. But don't worry about trying to anticipate everything that may or may not happen. No need to fret over minor details even though they may not seem so minor under the circumstances. But really, they are. If the fat thing doesn't work out after you've given it ample time, just stop feeding it. He'll go back to the way he was. Sounds to me like there is just about nothing worse that can happen here than him losing more weight. Anything else that may happen from feeding will be minor in comparison to more weight loss.


----------



## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

once it's done, you can't change your mind, so if you believe in signs...as long as he's not suffering....another day or week or month waiting whilst you try things that may or may not work.....why not?

and if you did get diarrhea? as long as you don't give him cannon butt, i think a little more fat might be something to try, but a little more....not like a gigantic cube of fat LOL

even my dogs when i give them a treat, get a 1/2 inch by 1/2 inch cube of fat. not very big at all..

but it's made quite the difference. now, they are younger and for us, it was because of not enough dietary fat....

like jay says, just give a little bit of fat....

you have dogs. of course, you're going to drive yourself crazy. goes with the turf....


----------



## Herzo (Feb 5, 2011)

I'm so sorry you are having to go through ,but I think your getting very good advice. Good luck with the little guy. I'm rooting for you.


----------



## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

If he is still hungry, i would definitely feed him more. Can he eat chicken? That has some nice fat. Never mind, i see you are already feeding him chicken.

I'm so sorry about his illness. I feel for you, and for him.


----------



## Donna Little (May 31, 2011)

Well today has all in all been a pretty good day with Tommy. He's been calmer, no frantic pacing, and has napped several times for a good while which is great since I know he needs rest. He's up and pacing about right now but he's just walking around the room slowly so it can't be as tiring as what he's been doing the last few days. Starting yesterday I cut his meals into smaller portions and have been feeding him like a young puppy or kitten every 3-4 hours. Well other than the middle of the night. Although, he was awake this morning at 5:30 and I fed him then so he's already had 4 meals and will likely get a couple more before I get in bed tonight. This seems to be working. I've just added a little venison in with one of the meals and stole a bit of chicken fat off my other guy's food so we'll see how it goes. He pooped yesterday and it was small and a perfect consistency so hopefully that won't change. I suppose if he keeps eating like this and it helps him gain a little more as well as some strength we'll both be happy with the outcome. And it'll hopefully continue to buy me a bit more time with him. 
I appreciate everyone listening to me ramble about him. I've never had a dog that was as strange yet endearing, quirky to the point of making me laugh out loud, and completely perfect and imperfect all at the same time. He was so totally broken when I got him and over the last few years I've watched him become a dog. Now that he has dementia all that he's gained living here is lost again and it just sucks. I want my dog back and I know that's not going to happen. So I'll take what I can get even if it's just for a few more days or weeks.


----------



## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

That is so sad. Being someone who adopts older dogs, i know what it is to lose them just when you think you and they both deserve to enjoy some good years together. My heart goes out to you. But you know you are doing the best for him, and since dogs don't fear death making him comfortable is making him happy, which is exactly what you are doing.


----------

