# Getting Tired of Milo's Aggression



## rannmiller (Jun 27, 2008)

So of course, my smallest dog is my biggest trouble-maker. On the 4th of July he went after Penny and wasn't going to let up so my mom and I managed to kick them apart and he ran after her again so I grabbed him by the tail, he flipped around to bite me, but i anticipated it so I moved my hand fast enough to scruff him and pin him to the ground across the room where he promptly peed all over himself and me and made no more attempt to get up or move. I held him there for about a minute or two, made sure he was calm, let him back up, and put him in my room away from everyone else for a time out for several hours. 

This is the first time he's ever gone after Penny and ever started a fight like that, he's usually just a snarky jerk who snaps/growls at other dogs when he feels overwhelmed by them. Or just when he feels like it. I just chalked it up to him being stressed by all of the festivities of the weekend. 

Well ever since then, he's been more snarky with Peyton (he was always kinda of snarky with her before but much worse now) and I keep finding scratches from him nipping her all over her beautiful face and she's getting scars from it and it's really starting to piss me off 

I just started separating them during the day when I'm not here to supervise so he gets to stay inside the house while Penny and Peyton can have the garage conversion and backyard to themselves. But he's so fast that even when I'm home, he can get her in less than a second if I'm not on top of him all the time so now I'm thinking about getting him a muzzle for when they are together so he can't even have the chance of hurting her anymore. 

I'm hoping that after a while of him not being able to go after her, I'll be able to wean him off of the muzzle and they'll be able to peacefully coexist again. 

I've also knocked him down several pegs on the doggie totem poll at my house so he's on the very bottom:

1. He gets fed last every single time no matter what I'm feeding them, from meals to treats to recreational bones. 

2. He's not allowed on any furniture anymore (obviously not enforced when I'm not home, which kinda sucks but I think it gets the point across when everyone else is and he isn't when I'm there to love on them). 

3. He used to get to walk ahead of everyone else on walks/runs, now I make sure to keep him at the back of the pack. 

4. If he makes any sort of aggressive/dominant move towards any of my pets, I put him in time out. 

5. I praise him when he is being a good, nice boy and leaving poor Peyton alone. 

I really love this dog but I'm getting so frustrated with him. If anyone has any other suggestions, I'm open to it!


----------



## TokenAndSeth (Jul 11, 2010)

Is Milo DA?

Was he fed/given treats/first out/in the door first (after you of course) before all of this? I don't know your dogs but is it possible that the hierarchy of your pack is changing? If so that could explain the increased aggression.


----------



## DaneMama (Jun 27, 2008)

^^^ My thoughts exactly. 

I want to know more about what instigated the issue on the 4th in the first place...? If you know that would be helpful. How old is Milo?

I can definitely seeing him getting more cranky with the other dogs if he's lost all of his status in the family because that contrary to natural pack order. When we bring a foster dog into our house they are at the bottom of the power scale, just because they are the newcomer into the house and not based on their personality. Why? Because if we bring a new dog into the pack and automatically make him/her leader, it would throw off the balance of our pack even more. We reinforce our dogs' places even if the dog we get is more dominant. 

Milo will not make the connection of taking all of his usual rights away with needing to "mellow out" his aggression. If anything it will just make it worse. I would re-establish his place in the pack because that will make him more confident and hopefully mellow him out more. Did this behavior (snipping and biting) start up with Peyton in the beginning when you first got her or just recently? It might be his way of telling you that he's jealous of the new puppy...?


----------



## rannmiller (Jun 27, 2008)

Milo is a little over 3 years old and he was always just second to Penny in the pack. 

On the 4th, my mom brought Peyton's brother with her and they were playing in the living room totally away from Milo and Penny who were in the kitchen. At that point it was just my mom, my bf, and myself in the house at the time. 

I had just walked into the kitchen after changing into heels and a skirt (yes, the perfect outfit for kicking two fighting dogs apart, I know ) my mom was standing in the door of the kitchen and I was standing in the middle of the kitchen. Milo was by me, Penny was by her. There was no food anywhere nearby and the dogs had all been fed that morning, hours prior to the event. Penny took one step towards me to get out of my mom's way and Milo flew at her snarling and biting so Penny fought back (she can hold her own very well for being almost 9 years old). 

Before that, Milo had always been sort of snarky with other dogs, he would do the growl and snap thing at them if they were infringing on his attention time with people or if they got too annoying for him and wouldn't leave him alone. But that is more of a dog park or in outside or new locations behavior. He's almost always just fine with other dogs in the home so long as they're well behaved. When I adopted him, he'd been living in a dog daycare for over a month, so he obviously had no issue with dogs then/there. 

Knowing this, I have always made sure that Peyton didn't bug him too much since she is an obnoxious puppy and she's gotten very good at knowing her boundaries with him. She never gets in his face or bites at him or anything. He even enjoys licking her face all the time! But sometimes, for some reason, he just snaps and gets her with his stupid teeth and she bleeds and scabs and scars from it which is totally unfair to her. 

I had no problem with Peyton being bottom dog, she had no problem with it either! She accepted her place happily and has made no attempts to change it, Penny humps her on a fairly regular basis just to remind her as well :biggrin:

But I do have a problem with Milo thinking he needs to spontaneously eat her face in order to keep her at the bottom. I don't want to reinforce that, and if him staying in second dog position makes him think that's acceptable behavior then he can just lose that position and lose that attitude as well.


----------



## TokenAndSeth (Jul 11, 2010)

I don't know if this will help at all but here is what I would do in that situation. 

In my house I am the alpha bitch, period. I decide who eats, when they eat, who humps who, when they can play and what they can play with. We follow NILF religiously!

Perhaps Milo needs a reminder of just who is really in charge in your home, which is YOU :wink:

*ETA*
I wonder how much of having another male in the house had to do with Milo's behavior?


----------



## CorgiPaws (Mar 31, 2009)

TokenAndSeth said:


> *ETA*
> I wonder how much of having another male in the house had to do with Milo's behavior?


Peyton is a female.:wink:


----------



## xxshaelxx (Mar 8, 2010)

CorgiPaws said:


> Peyton is a female.:wink:


lol. They were talking about Rachel's mum's pup.


----------



## rannmiller (Jun 27, 2008)

well it may have had something to do with his aggression towards Penny (though as I said before, he was in the other room with peyton, nowhere near him). And he (Adonis, my mom's dog) hasn't been here since the incident and it's his post-incident snarkiness that has me the most concerned. Besides, Adonis is a super submissive puppy so I don't know how much influence he had.


----------



## rannmiller (Jun 27, 2008)

My trainer/the president of the rescue I got Milo from in the first place says my pack was probably changing that night and Milo was trying to take top dog position and I should try making him top dog for a week and see if things get better. Guess I'll try that and see if it helps.


----------



## geneseeker66 (Jun 20, 2010)

*Milo's agression*

Have you considered having Milo's thyroid checked? I have heard that if a dogs thyroid levels are off they can become aggressive. Just a thought. Lori


----------



## rannmiller (Jun 27, 2008)

Well that's it, he threw away his last chance tonight. Around midnight he bit Peyton's ear and gave it a pretty good-sized gash. This is in addition to the various other slashes he's put all over her body including two right on her nose. I'm fed up with it. Not to mention the fact that while he would never harm my older cat as long as she can ward him off, she is almost 16 years old and my kitten adores dogs and wouldn't stand a chance against him so I haven't been able to trust him alone with the kitten. He's already contributed to the death of another cat as well. I just am sick of him and don't trust him anymore. He's out of my house and I don't even care. 

After waiting an hour for the wound in her ear to clot I finally took her to the emergency clinic and $150 later she still needs to be anesthetized at my clinic tomorrow so she can get a stitch or two put in it. She currently has her head all wrapped up to keep from shaking any clots out and she has a giant cone on her head and hydro on board so she's pretty well out of it. 

My sweet bf took Milo for the night so I don't have to deal with him anymore and I'm calling the rescue first thing in the morning to come get him because I refuse to have him in my house for another day torturing my animals. He has always been a snarky jerk, and sketchy with other animals but this takes the cake. Peyton doesn't deserve to be bullied like this constantly when she's the sweetest dog on the planet and has never shown aggression towards another animal in her life. 

I think he'll be a lot happier being the only pet in his new home and my pets and I will be a lot happier without him around raising the tension and snapping at everyone constantly. 

Thank you for listening to my rant. Hopefully I will be much more peaceful and happy from now on with him gone.


----------



## hcdoxies (Sep 22, 2010)

So sorry to hear this :-(


----------



## Little Brown Jug (Dec 7, 2010)

Personally I would have put him down. Especially considering he's played part in the death of an animal. There is an overload of well behaved dogs in shelters that can't find homes let alone ones with behaviour problems such as that and so few homes that have the experience to handle a dog with aggression issues.

Sorry to hear about it though. Hopefully things won't be so stressful in a few days once everyone has calmed down.


----------



## xxshaelxx (Mar 8, 2010)

Oh yeah, because we should totally murder a dog with a problem, because we should totally murder all of the people in this world that break the law on a regular basis. We should totally murder every person who ever gets into a physical fight.

It's not that easy to just put a dog down for issues like that. It's not even a ginormous issue, because it can be solved with Milo being in a one dog family where he doesn't have to compete for attention.

Even though there were problems, Rachel loved that dog, and still does, but she just can't have him there to upset the balance with her other dogs, and possibly kill her new cat. He's just not the right fit for HER home. I know the feeling, because I've had a dog like that, too, who upset the balance of my home, and I found him a new home where he's just RIGHT for them. I loved that dog, and I still do, and I miss him from time to time. I would NEVER be able to make the decision to put him down because of the issues that drove him away from THIS home.


----------



## SerenityFL (Sep 28, 2010)

Little Brown Jug said:


> Personally I would have put him down. Especially considering he's played part in the death of an animal. There is an overload of well behaved dogs in shelters that can't find homes let alone ones with behaviour problems such as that and so few homes that have the experience to handle a dog with aggression issues.
> 
> Sorry to hear about it though. Hopefully things won't be so stressful in a few days once everyone has calmed down.


This attitude really bothers me. Some dogs do not do well in a household with other animals but that is not a reason to put those dogs down. That should not be the first thing to seek out.

The solution is as ranmiller has done, albeit unfortunate that it didn't work out in her home, she did the absolute right thing. Once a dog has started fighting with its housemates, it may very well not stop...dynamics have changed. The best solution is to remove the animal from the home if it's getting to the level revealed here. This does not mean automatically put the animal to sleep.

The dog can thrive in another household. The dog can get the one on one attention it craves, the complete and total focus on training and rehabilitation. 

It is not fun, it's not an easy decision, it would be nice to have it work out but sometimes, that just doesn't happen. It's just not the right environment for that particular dog. So you find another environment. Not death. It should only be in extreme cases that a dog should be considered for euthanization. This type of behavior happens more often than we know in multiple dog/multiple animal households. Sometimes we get lucky and things work out, sometimes we don't.

And this is not an insult to anyone at all: sometimes we know what to do to solve the problem and most of the time, we just don't. Or we cannot because we do not have the time, the space, the resources, the knowledge. And I say this as someone who may have to do something similar...we'll see what happens. My two dogs were rescues, (from the streets), are brother and sister and there is some aggression happening to the point I don't feel comfortable letting them off leash, together nor can I leave them alone, unattended, together. That cannot happen not even for 5 minutes. They have gotten in to a few fights. And I do know the difference between puppies play fighting and an actual fight. 

Should I put one of the dogs down? Is that really the answer? Or maybe I should consider giving one of the dogs up for adoption as I may not have the knowledge I need to fix the problem.


----------



## RachelsaurusRexU (Sep 4, 2010)

Not to mention the fact that... isn't Milo a terrier? Terriers very often have a tendency to be DA and prey-driven with smaller animals (whatever that mention of killing another animal was...) Why should he be euthanized for that?

I know Rachel said he was in a daycare situation before, but I've seen dogs behave perfectly in a large group of dogs then do TERRIBLE one on one. Besides, now he's settled into 'his' home. That makes a big difference, too. 

I have certain dogs that do not get along, which isn't uncommon for many multiple pit bull households. For me, it's easy to crate and rotate and keep them separated in two groups. One group will hang out in their yard (fenced) while others hang out inside with me, then we pull the old switcheroo. When I take them out hiking, etc I take one group at a time. It works very well for us. Rehoming, for me, was never an option for several reasons, but I would never ever judge anyone for not being willing or able to do what I have to do. 

Rachel is doing the right thing, albeit a difficult thing, for herself, her dogs, and Milo. How insensitive of you to insinuate that her dog should be euthanized...


----------



## CorgiPaws (Mar 31, 2009)

Rach,
My hearty goes out to you for having to make this difficult decision. I know first hand how incredibly difficult rehoming can be, and I'm sure you're torn up about it. 
Absolutely no one can know better than you what is best for Milo. Happy, settled dogs don't lash out like that, and I applaud you for not keeping Milo in a situation in which he is unhappy and on edge. What a selfless act!


As for Milo needing to be put down- I suppose there are many ways to look at it. This is a dog, that is unsettled in his home, that probably would do GREAT in a single dog home. Why rob him of that? PLENTY of dogs out there would kill a cat if given the chance. We have a cat that lives at my boarding facility, but she is kept safe from the dogs. There are PLENTY of my customer's dogs who would rip her to pieces if given the chance, but it makes them no less wonderful with people or other dogs. 
my dogs have killed several rabbits, should they be put down? I think not. 


I am an absolutely firm believer in rehoming pets that do not seem happy or well-adjusted in their current environment. Rehoming my Corgi was one of the hardest things I have EVER done, and it still catches up to me in the middle of the night a few times a week. But I know dang well, I did what's best for him... and I find peace in that. I believe that Rachel will make the best decision, not only for herself and her other pets, but for Milo. 


Grissom, my Corgi, had had several scuffles with Annie. She has a few scars from him nipping at her. They didn't mesh. They didn't get along. He drew blood a few times (mind you she's the only dog he hates like that?) Keeping them seprate was tough, and the tension is insane. I can NOT live in an environment lacking harmony. I guess I could have put him down to save all those other dogs, or kept him for fear of being one of "those" people who "dumps" their dogs. But, had I have done that, I'm positive his new owner would be missing out on a lot....








...and so would Grissom.


----------



## SerenityFL (Sep 28, 2010)

RachelsaurusRexU said:


> For me, it's easy to crate and rotate and keep them separated in two groups. One group will hang out in their yard (fenced) while others hang out inside with me, then we pull the old switcheroo. When I take them out hiking, etc I take one group at a time. It works very well for us. Rehoming, for me, was never an option for several reasons, but I would never ever judge anyone for not being willing or able to do what I have to do.


This is pretty much what I'm having to do with my two dogs. They get some time together, in the house and some time together, on walks, ON leash. But I cannot allow them even a minute unsupervised. I have to be on their behinds, and when the aggression is getting revved up, (I can see when it's about to happen now), I let them know who is in charge. 

However, off leash? Can't. The boy seems to be very prey driven and he chases the girl and starts the fights outside, when off leash. They play for a little bit and then the boy gets dominant and a fight breaks out. They've had three fights off leash, and I mean, FIGHT--me having to pull them apart, (used the leash to wrap around the legs one time and one time, the fight was so bad, I had to "kick", (and do not take that one the wrong way, people...), one off of the other. The third fight I raised my voice, used as low a tone as I could and basically bellowed at them to stop. That got their attention. That was also when I realized, at least right now and maybe forever, they cannot run around off leash together. 

They've had some fights over toys although they have P lenty of toys. In the house, the girl is toy aggressive and will growl and snap and, if I don't stop it, will start a fight with the boy when he tries to pick up a toy even though she's not using it.

So, for the most part, they are separate but they do get some time together. However, when they are, they are closely, and I mean very closely, monitored.

I tried the advice of just "letting them be" and that's when the fights got worse so we are trying this. There is still a chance that when they get a little older, if they are trained properly, this will not be an issue but there is also a chance that it will always be an issue. This leaves me with two choices:

Keep them separate for the rest of their lives or give one up.

It is a lot of hard work, meaning everything is double now but in some cases, that is the way it is. What I have to determine is if they will be able to "grow out of this" or if I am ok with keeping them separate and if so, is it fair to them. I don't know the right answer at this point. What I do know is that neither one of them will be euthanized for it.


----------



## 3Musketeers (Nov 4, 2010)

Doggie boot camp! Let's start one! All the spoiled brat dogs all around the world can go there and get a well deserved butt kicking. Gimme 100 Sits! NOW! Or you go into the ISOLATION CAGE... while wearing a CONE OF SHAAAAMEE D:<

Anyways...
It's great that you managed to find Milo a home, although things didn't quite work out with his aggression.

No dog, or animal should be put down just because it is aggressive to other pets. Definitely sounds like a hassle to have them around being that way, but re-homing them is much, much better than having them killed.

If one of you, right now, went ahead and punched me in the face, does that mean I should demand you be given the death penalty? Of course not, that's ridiculous.




CorgiPaws said:


> PLENTY of dogs out there would kill a cat if given the chance.


Speaking of which, PLENTY of (feral)cats, and kittens have tried to kill my Sparky. That dog never learns, he happily trots over to play with them despite their hissing, and then gets attacked. Then he wants me to save him, pfffft.


----------



## rannmiller (Jun 27, 2008)

Well I talked to his former rescue and they basically told me that if I return him they will probably put him to sleep because no one wants a dog who is aggressive towards other animals and they don't want him to spend the rest of his life in a cage  then they offered me free, in-home training to work with him on his issues. 

After feeling like crap about everything and taking a couple of naps, I decided to give him yet another chance. Now I have some new techniques to try on him that seem to be helping already so we'll see I guess. Thanks everyone for your input. 

SerenityFL, I'm so sorry to hear about what's happening with your dogs. We went through that with my mom's dogs for four years keeping them separated the whole time. It worked well for us and the dogs got equal amounts of attention but it's definitely not for everyone. I hear siblings tend to be more prone to long-term rivalry issues too unfortunately  either way I know you will find the best solution for you and your dogs.


----------



## RachelsaurusRexU (Sep 4, 2010)

Good luck, I hope it works out.


----------

