# Breeder Who Doesn't Vaccinate



## nortknee (May 5, 2011)

I'm new to the forum, and haven't had a chance to read through threads very far back, but I know I'm in the right place!

We're looking at a breeder who doesn't vaccinate. I guess their theory is "less is more" when it comes to a healthy dog. (This is out in rural Canada) I'm originally from the US. To me, an unvaccinated dog is a dog that will die young from something that was probably preventable with vaccines. :\
I just want to know thoughts, personal opinions, questions to ask further of this breeder, etc.

Thanks guys.


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## DaneMama (Jun 27, 2008)

I personally look for vaccinating puppies no earlier than 8 weeks. I believe that puppy boosters should be given around 8 weeks, then again and 12 weeks and then again at 4 months. Rabies shouldn't be given before 6 months. Then one more set of booster shots 1 year after their last round of puppy shots. Then one more rabies shot one year after their first one. The dog should be set for life. 

Other people may believe that no vaccines at all are best.


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## MollyWoppy (Mar 19, 2010)

Is it part of the buyers contract that you are not permitted to vaccinate the pup for the rest of its life? Or, or can you give it what vaccinations you think are necessary once you take ownership?


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## nortknee (May 5, 2011)

MollyWoppy said:


> Is it part of the buyers contract that you are not permitted to vaccinate the pup for the rest of its life? Or, or can you give it what vaccinations you think are necessary once you take ownership?


The latter, I believe. I didn't think to ask.
Purchase price is a bit cheaper BECAUSE they don't vaccinate though. Which is kind of nice. ($800)


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## nortknee (May 5, 2011)

DaneMama said:


> I personally look for vaccinating puppies no earlier than 8 weeks. I believe that puppy boosters should be given around 8 weeks, then again and 12 weeks and then again at 4 months. Rabies shouldn't be given before 6 months. Then one more set of booster shots 1 year after their last round of puppy shots. Then one more rabies shot one year after their first one. The dog should be set for life.
> 
> Other people may believe that no vaccines at all are best.


Great.  So not a cause for concern.

I thought of you today (even though I don't know you) at the dog part. It must have been great dane day because there were 3 of them there, out of about a dozen dogs.
My favorite was this massive 2 year old male who was a beautiful gray color with white chest/jowls, and bright blue eyes. He was definitely shy though.  Don't think he'd been socialized well...


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## Angelwing (Feb 20, 2011)

I think you should ask them why they don't vaccinate. I don't believe in over-vaccinating but I also don't believe in not vaccinating at all.


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## CorgiPaws (Mar 31, 2009)

There are several ways of viewing vaccinating. One is that every dog needs every vaccine annually. Another is that no vaccines should be given ever. Then you have every possible variation in between the two extremes. I personally do puppy boosters at 8, 12, and 16 weeks given the choice, and then call it quits. 
Not vaccinating isn't necessarily a huge red flag, but you need to look at the entire picture of their breeding program. What do they have to offer? SOme breeders don't vaccinate due to a firm belief that it is better for the dogs that way. Other breeders don't vaccinate because they're cutting corners to make a buck. The fact that they don't vaccinate alone is not enough information to determine good breeder vs. bad breeder.


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## DaneMama (Jun 27, 2008)

nortknee said:


> Great.  So not a cause for concern.
> 
> I thought of you today (even though I don't know you) at the dog part. It must have been great dane day because there were 3 of them there, out of about a dozen dogs.
> My favorite was this massive 2 year old male who was a beautiful gray color with white chest/jowls, and bright blue eyes. He was definitely shy though.  Don't think he'd been socialized well...


Unfortunately people who don't socialize their Danes end up with giant potential problem dogs. Poor thing...


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## RawFedDogs (Jun 16, 2008)

There are several places around the internet that you can find breeders who have several generations of dogs that were never vaccinated and I haven't ever heard of one of their dogs dying from any of those diseases we vaccinate against. They claim none of them do. Many of them say that even if the parents of the puppies were vaccinated, the puppy will suffer for it. They say you need 5 or 6 generations of not vaccinating to get all the effects of vaccine out of their genes. I have no opinion one way or the other on this. I would probably be afraid to try it.


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## Little Brown Jug (Dec 7, 2010)

There is an ACD breeder I've been looking at that doesn't vaccinate. All her dogs appear healthy, and I've heard nothing but extremely great remarks from people that have met her and her dogs in and out of the show ring. She doesn't vaccinate because she believes it is healthier for the dog. 



> We test the parents for genetic diseases, research pedigrees, and breed only from healthy, intelligent, loyal, biddable versatile stock. Oh yes, our dogs have plenty of herding instinct..parents have all been worked on our sheep. We also aptitude test all of the puppies, and measure their angulations of front and hind limbs to help assure balance and correct and effortless movement, needless to say they are socialized and handled right from day one.Since we are holistic breeders our ACDs are fed a unprocessed diet, and all are treated with homeopathic nosodes instead of vaccinations


I've always only done the basics (rabies) with my dogs, and only since it is require by law and they have never caught anything (I also don't do flea/tick treatment and have never had a problem). I don't like the idea of over vaccinating and putting all those chemicals in their bodies.


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## BrownieM (Aug 30, 2010)

Little Brown Jug said:


> There is an ACD breeder I've been looking at that doesn't vaccinate. All her dogs appear healthy, and I've heard nothing but extremely great remarks from people that have met her and her dogs in and out of the show ring. She doesn't vaccinate because she believes it is healthier for the dog.
> 
> 
> 
> I've always only done the basics (rabies) with my dogs, and only since it is require by law and they have never caught anything (I also don't do flea/tick treatment and have never had a problem). I don't like the idea of over vaccinating and putting all those chemicals in their bodies.


Are dogs even allowed in the show ring without having been vaccinated???


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## Little Brown Jug (Dec 7, 2010)

Honestly I have no idea, but she shows(or has shown) and does herding with her dogs as well. So I assume its OK since she does the nosodes and it does pretty much the same thing as a vaccine from what I understand.


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## BrownieM (Aug 30, 2010)

What is a nosode?


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## Little Brown Jug (Dec 7, 2010)

From what I understand they are the byproduct of a disease(so affected mucus or tissue) and are diluted until the live parts of the disease are gone only the parts that help the immune system make antibodies remain. Its given orally


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## Liz (Sep 27, 2010)

I breed collies and due to a lot of research we raise them naturally. They are non vaccinated, no flea meds, we don't have a heartworm issue, and they are raw fed. My oldest totally non vaccinated dog is 6 and I also have 5 month old pups we have not given shots to. Out of a litter of 7 all the pups rode well in cars, were calm and easy around people and other animals, very nice even keel, socialized pups. They were crate trained and housebroken before going to new homes. The two pups who were given multiple disease vaccines at once have developed car sickness and nervousness. Some may be attriubuted to age but nto all - the other 5 have had no change in demeanor or bahvior. Three others were given 1 parvo then 2 weeks later a distemper then a rabies. They are doing well. This is the first litter I can track differences on as we do not breed often. I thought it was interesting.


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## nortknee (May 5, 2011)

Now, if only I could find a lab breeder who believed this and fed raw, we'd be in good hands.


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## rannmiller (Jun 27, 2008)

Is a lab the breed you decided on then? There are so many of them out there, I'm sure you could find one!

I did Peyton's vaccines the exact way Nat described, I believe she should be set for life now. If nothing else it will keep the clinic off my back about her for 3 more years. Milo was vaccinated by the shelter when I got him, I'm assuming since he didn't have parvo and was already trained, housebroken, and socialized when I got him at 1.5 years old, he probably had some puppy shots, so I'll just assume he's good for life. Poor Penny was vaccinated routinely growing up cuz I didn't know any better. Her last set was about 3 years ago and she's never getting them again!


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## nortknee (May 5, 2011)

rannmiller said:


> Is a lab the breed you decided on then? There are so many of them out there, I'm sure you could find one!
> 
> I did Peyton's vaccines the exact way Nat described, I believe she should be set for life now. If nothing else it will keep the clinic off my back about her for 3 more years. Milo was vaccinated by the shelter when I got him, I'm assuming since he didn't have parvo and was already trained, housebroken, and socialized when I got him at 1.5 years old, he probably had some puppy shots, so I'll just assume he's good for life. Poor Penny was vaccinated routinely growing up cuz I didn't know any better. Her last set was about 3 years ago and she's never getting them again!


Yep, we've decided to stay with our original decision of a lab, despite new developments about my allergies. 
We'll just be neat freaks and give it a bath weekly (just water and a good scrub) to try and alleviate some of the issues that go along with it.

Finding a breeder (we have a decent one in mind, but I'm not sure how he feels about vaccinations or feeding raw; he feeds Purina) that feeds raw is more difficult than I thought it would be. :\

Any suggestions?


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## RaisingWolves (Mar 19, 2011)

I met a bordeaux breeder on a mastiff health forum who does not vaccinate, period. The conditions of her puppy agreement are- they must be fed a raw diet, no vaccinations, and no spay/neuter prior to 24 months of age. 
I couldn't agree to zero vaccinations. I feel the first vacs are important(I think). I'm now wondering...

What I found the most interesting... her pups have not required deworming for 3 generations. Three generations of pups tested negative for worms. 
I thought all pups were born with worms. 
It makes me think of the 'Hypothesis on Worming" http://www.rawlearning.com/worming.html 
and the research that sparked the article Idea Lab - The Worm Turns - Curing Diseases With Parasites? - Idea Lab - NYTimes.com

Do you think our canine's ability to handle parasites has anything to do with what we are doing to their immune system? Feeding generations of processed food and over vaccinating? 

This should probably be in another thread...but I'm reading arguments from anti-raw members on another forum about the risks associated with raw meat and parasites. One member claims to have fed raw until her dog contracted parasites (couldn't remember which parasite) from raw meat. 
How is it that thousands (dare I say millions?) of raw feeders can feed multiple dogs raw meat for 8, 9, 15+ years and our dogs never get worms?


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## RawFedDogs (Jun 16, 2008)

RaisingWolves said:


> Do you think our canine's ability to handle parasites has anything to do with what we are doing to their immune system? Feeding generations of processed food and over vaccinating?


Absolutely, yes. 



> This should probably be in another thread...but I'm reading arguments from anti-raw members on another forum about the risks associated with raw meat and parasites.


Many new raw feeders are concerned about parasites and raw meat but you just don't get parasites from raw meat with very few rare exceptions. Almost all parasites in the body are in the GI tract and you don't feed the GI tract usually.



> How is it that thousands (dare I say millions?) of raw feeders can feed multiple dogs raw meat for 8, 9, 15+ years and our dogs never get worms?


9 years of raw feeding to 4 dogs and 2 cats and not one case of worms. One of them did have worms before I begain feeding raw.


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## RaisingWolves (Mar 19, 2011)

RawFedDogs said:


> 9 years of raw feeding to 4 dogs and 2 cats and not one case of worms. One of them did have worms before I begain feeding raw.


8.5 years two boxers, 8 months mastiff puppy, no worms.


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## rannmiller (Jun 27, 2008)

nortknee said:


> Finding a breeder (we have a decent one in mind, but I'm not sure how he feels about vaccinations or feeding raw; he feeds Purina) that feeds raw is more difficult than I thought it would be. :\
> 
> Any suggestions?


Go join a lab forum and ask around there. There should be a huge community of lab owners and breeders there who can point you in the right direction :smile:


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## nortknee (May 5, 2011)

rannmiller said:


> Go join a lab forum and ask around there. There should be a huge community of lab owners and breeders there who can point you in the right direction :smile:


Oh, there ARE plenty of breeders, and I'm on a couple lab forums, but none are really the "less is more" sort when it comes to raw feeding/vaccinations. Some breeders even require you to feed x brand for the first 12 months of the puppies life. I'm pretty sure I'd be flamed or worse if I brought up wanting to look for a breeder who feed raw. :\


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## Little Brown Jug (Dec 7, 2010)

I only know of one breeder (mentioned through a friend) that raw feeds her dogs. I'm not sure if she even stills breeds or not and she's in Ontario. But maybe if that's too far for you and if she doesn't breed anymore she might know of a kennel that does? I'm not sure on her stance about vacc. though...


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## Liz (Sep 27, 2010)

Here are a couple of raw feeding, naturally raising lab breeders. You might want to check them out.
www.evenstarlabradors, Mining Camp Labradors, 
They were listed on a raw feeding site I belong to, they look decent at a glance but I have not researched their breedings. They both title and test their dog, rear naturally and raw feed. Hope it helps. They may also have contacts to other breeders.


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