# Grain-free Formulas for a LBP



## SpooOwner (Oct 1, 2010)

Is this the complete list of high-end GF foods suitable for a LBP? Does anyone have any formulas to add?


Acana Pacifica - 1.4-1.5% Ca :: 1.1-1.2% Ph
Acana Prairie - 1.3-1.4% Ca :: 1.1-1.2% Ph
Dogswell Chicken and Chickpea Recipe - 1.7% Ca : 1.1% Ph (Note: citric acid)
Fromm Grain-free Surf and Turf – 1.0% Ca : 0.9% Ph
Orijen Adult - 1.4-1.6% Ca :: 1.2-1.4% Ph
Orijen LBP - 1.5 - 1.7% Ca :: 1.2 - 1.4% Ph
Orijen Regional Red - 1.6 - 1.8% Ca :: 1.4 - 1.6% Ph
Orijen 6 Fish - 1.4-1.6% Ca :: 1.2-1.4% Ph
TOTW Sierra Mountains - 1.6% Ca

Not Suitable:

Acana Grasslands - 2% Ca
Canidae Grain-free ALS - 2% Ca
Dogswell Lamb and Chickpea Recipe - 2.2% Ca : 1.1% Ph (Note: flaxseed, citric acid)
Evo - high Ca
Fromm Grain-free Beef Fritata - low proportion of meat, but suitable Ca levels
Merrick Before Grain Chicken – 2.1% Ca
Merrick Before Grain Buffalo - 2% Ca
Merrick Before Grain Salmon - 2% Ca
TOTW High Prairie - 2.1% Ca
TOTW Pacific Stream - 1.9% Ca
TOTW Wetlands - 2.1% Ca


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## buddy97 (Mar 29, 2010)

SpooOwner said:


> Is this the complete list of high-end GF foods suitable for a LBP (<2% Ca, and <40% protein)? Does anyone have any formulas to add?
> 
> 
> Acana Prairie - chicken
> ...


Canidae ALS chicken is 2% as fed.

Fromm Fritata-i couldnt find Ca levels. also, for a grainless, it has very little meat

Fromm Surf and Turf-couldnt find anything but minimum levels

Before Grain- couldnt find levels on any of the formulas

do you know the levels in the Fromm or Before Grain?


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## SpooOwner (Oct 1, 2010)

Canidae - removed.

Fromm and Before Grain - Hopefully someone here has a bag and can check the Ca levels. I don't know why manufacterers don't post Ca and Ph levels on their website. And I don't know how to interpret minimum levels - obviously, it's a minimum, but how much higher will the actual amount be?

If we omit the Fromm and Merrick lines, we're down to just Acana and TOTW. Does that sound right to you, Buddy?


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## buddy97 (Mar 29, 2010)

SpooOwner said:


> And I don't know how to interpret minimum levels - obviously, it's a minimum, but how much higher will the actual amount be?
> 
> ?


thats a good question. the difference from the minimum to the maximum can be small or very large, which is why i feel better when the max listed is low.

so, totw sierra/acana/orijen. some of the others may be fine. maybe the numbers are listed on the bags?


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## whiteleo (Sep 7, 2008)

I thought Orijen was in the mix for proper Ca Ph levels for LBP?


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## SpooOwner (Oct 1, 2010)

I rule out Orijen because of the protein levels. On a raw diet, the % protein is only about 26-32%, so I rule out kibbles with protein levels significantly higher.

I also justify this on the basis that my dog didn't do well on Orijen. I have heard though, that if you start with Acana and then move to Orijen, many dogs handle the transition better.


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## DarDog (Sep 6, 2010)

> On a raw diet, the % protein is only about 26-32%


That's not on a dry matter basis (as it is measured for kibble). Considering the dry matter for a raw diet, protein would be higher than 26-32%.


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## DarDog (Sep 6, 2010)

> Fromm Fritata-i couldnt find Ca levels. also, for a grainless, it has very little meat


I was very disappointed about the level of meat in this too! Their surf n turf seems quite a bit better.
As for the levels, I don't know if they have them figured out completely because it was new - which is kind of scary. I have a small bag I got for free from our food store because of a promotion and there is no info on Ca or Ph. As well, their AAFCO statement is different to their normal ones - this one is formulated to meet the levels, whereas most of their other food was feed trial tested (not that this says much because I know those trials aren't the greatest example of a "trial" :frown


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## SpooOwner (Oct 1, 2010)

DarDog said:


> That's not on a dry matter basis (as it is measured for kibble). Considering the dry matter for a raw diet, protein would be higher than 26-32%.


Do you know what the actual numbers are? I know how to convert kibble to a dry matter basis: Orijen and Evo were both in the 44-47% range when you subtract out moisture.


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## List (Oct 28, 2008)

Just on a side note the new LBP Orijen is 38% protein.
And DarDog is right, comparing kibble which is dry matter and comparing a complete raw diet water inclusive is like comparing apples and oranges.


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## buddy97 (Mar 29, 2010)

DarDog said:


> That's not on a dry matter basis (as it is measured for kibble). Considering the dry matter for a raw diet, protein would be higher than 26-32%.


yeah, someone figured it out on another forum i am on. raw meat on a dry matter basis was more like 40-45% protein.

...or, if you took a 40% protein kibble and added enough water to make it 65% water like raw meat is, you would get a dramatically lower protein % since it is based on total weight.

at any rate, id consider orijen large breed puppy one of the most well designed large breed puppy foods made.


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## DarDog (Sep 6, 2010)

Thanks, yeah, I wasn't sure about the numbers, just knew it was more than what was said :smile:


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## whiteleo (Sep 7, 2008)

I have to say I'm a total Acana fan and don't feed any of my rescues anything else before transitioning to raw but I just thought you were looking for all options.


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## SpooOwner (Oct 1, 2010)

buddy97 said:


> yeah, someone figured it out on another forum i am on. raw meat on a dry matter basis was more like 40-45% protein.


OK, so kibbles with up to and including 40% protein are ok (assuming 10% moisture). And 42% protein isn't that much higher - around 47% protein on a dry weight basis.

If so, then Orijen LBP and Evo are back in. Unless someone has a reason to rule Evo out (I can't parse out their quality since P&G took over).


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## List (Oct 28, 2008)

Evo's cal/phos ratio isn't appropriate or a large breed pup.


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## SpooOwner (Oct 1, 2010)

List said:


> Evo's cal/phos ratio isn't appropriate or a large breed pup.


I'll take it off the list, then.

WL - yes, I'm looking for all options in the high-end, widely available kibbles.


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## DarDog (Sep 6, 2010)

I have a question regarding the Orijen LBP Vs Orijen adult. Looking at the adult formula, it doesn't look very different to the LBP, in fact, the %s of Ca and Ph are even (slightly) lower in the adult.

So, are the Orijen adult formulas ok then for a LBP?


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## buddy97 (Mar 29, 2010)

DarDog said:


> I have a question regarding the Orijen LBP Vs Orijen adult. Looking at the adult formula, it doesn't look very different to the LBP, in fact, the %s of Ca and Ph are even (slightly) lower in the adult.
> 
> So, are the Orijen adult formulas ok then for a LBP?


i think the only orijen formula with higher ca levels is the regional red, so i think all but that would be ok.


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## SpooOwner (Oct 1, 2010)

Dar - I have heard that many dogs prefer Orijen's LBP formula to the adult. It's strange because the ingredients are identical and formulas are so similar.


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## cast71 (Sep 16, 2010)

I emailed champion, about the max calcium and phosphorous levels, for the acana formulas. The website only lists the minimum levels. I'll post them as soon as I get a reply.


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## sassymaxmom (Dec 7, 2008)

Here is a possible weekly recipe for raw fed Max.
Nutrition Facts and Analysis for mackerelchickenfootporkbeef
320 grams total weight with 59 grams of protein and 216 grams of water. The rest is fat and ash, no fiber at all. 
320-216=104 dry weight grams. 59/104=56% protein in this particular meal plan.

If I didn't take the water into account 59/320=18.4% protein.


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## SpooOwner (Oct 1, 2010)

sassymaxmom said:


> 56% protein in this particular meal plan.


Wow - that's significantly higher than any kibble. Thanks, Sassy.


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## SpooOwner (Oct 1, 2010)

I got a response from Merrick about Ca and Ph levels in the Before Grain line. It looks like their Buffalo and Salmon formulas are in.

BG Buffalo
Ca: 1.97
Ph: 1.28

BG Salmon
Ca: 1.94
Ph: 1.27

BG Chicken
Ca: 2.12
Ph: 1.30


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## cast71 (Sep 16, 2010)

SpooOwner said:


> I got a response from Merrick about Ca and Ph levels in the Before Grain line. It looks like their Buffalo and Salmon formulas are in.
> 
> BG Buffalo
> Ca: 1.97
> ...


I thought the calcium levels should be under 1.5% and the phosphorous should be under 1%? Or as close to that as possible. I could be wrong though


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## SpooOwner (Oct 1, 2010)

My understanding is that the Cah ratio should be close to 1.2:1, and absolute Ca should be under 2%. Of course, this is a relatively new idea, and so I'm not confident how much science is really behind these numbers. But it's what we have, so....

The Merrick foods are definitely high in Ca and low in Ph, but they're probably fine.


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## cast71 (Sep 16, 2010)

If you go by the 1.2:1 ratio, the TOTW pacific formula looks like it should be fine for a LBP.

Pacific Stream Dog-- calcium: 1.9%, as-fed; phosphorus: 1.1%, as-fed

1.9/1.2=1.58 

So phosphorous should be under 1.58. Is this correct? If so than that's another grainfree to add:smile:


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## SpooOwner (Oct 1, 2010)

Yes, in that I'll add TOTW Pacific Stream to the list; no, in that the Ph levels are too low (phosphorous should be 1.58, not under 1.58). Merrick's ratios are only slightly better.


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## buddy97 (Mar 29, 2010)

the ratios are important, but the absolute Ca levels are what studies have implicated in growth issues. the most common recommendation continues to be keeping absolute Ca levels at 1.5% or below (or as close as possible).


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## buddy97 (Mar 29, 2010)

SpooOwner said:


> I got a response from Merrick about Ca and Ph levels in the Before Grain line. It looks like their Buffalo and Salmon formulas are in.
> 
> BG Buffalo
> Ca: 1.97
> ...


those are minimum level or maximum/as fed levels? either way, i think id avoid them for a large breed pup.


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## SpooOwner (Oct 1, 2010)

Thanks, Buddy. I wasn't sure which was more important: the ratio or the Ca level.

If 1.5 is our new cutoff, then I'll remove a bunch from the initial list. Too bad, it had the makings of a nice rotation with lots of variety.


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## cast71 (Sep 16, 2010)

Not to many options for grain free LBP formulas:frown:


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## SpooOwner (Oct 1, 2010)

Right? I'm surprised. I never tracked the numbers before this, just listened to the anecdotal evidence, and to end up with only Acana and maybe Orijen is disheartening.


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## cast71 (Sep 16, 2010)

Hello,



Thank you for taking the time to write to us. The ACANA Grain Free products have been formulated for all life stages. I would recommend either the ACANA Wild Prairie or the ACANA Pacifica for your large breed puppy. The ACANA Grasslands, because it is a red meat formula might be a little too high in calcium and phosphorus for a large breed puppy. Below are the calcium phosphorus levels minimum and maximum for each of the formulas.



ACANA Wild Prairie

Calcium min 1.3% max 1.4%

Phosphorus min 1.1% max 1.2%



ACANA Pacifica

Calcium min 1.4% max 1.5%

Phosphorus min 1.1% max 1.2%



ACANA Grasslands

Calcium min 2.0% max 2.2%

Phosphorus min 1.2% max 1.3%



I hope that I have been helpful and please contact us again with any further questions or concerns that you may have.



Kind regards,


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## cast71 (Sep 16, 2010)

Pacifica and praire are perfect levels:smile:

Ideal praire phosphorous levels are between 1.08 and 1.16 

Ideal pacifica phosphorous levels are between 1.16 and 1.25


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## DarDog (Sep 6, 2010)

Thanks Cast,
That completely answers another thread that I started a bit ago on this forum :smile:.

As well, I do think Fromm Surf and Turf is likely ok for a LBP. The typical analysis is 1.0% Ca and 0.9% Ph - I know they don't list min and max though.


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## cast71 (Sep 16, 2010)

Also I think we can let origen lbp slide with the 1.7% calcium level. Especially when I read on here, that lbp's do better than the adult formula.


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## cast71 (Sep 16, 2010)

DarDog said:


> Thanks Cast,
> That completely answers another thread that I started a bit ago on this forum :smile:.
> 
> As well, I do think Fromm Surf and Turf is likely ok for a LBP. The typical analysis is 1.0% Ca and 0.9% Ph - I know they don't list min and max though.


 Yeah now I remember I was suppose to post the reply on that thread ahahaha No need now. 

I emailed fromm a few weeks back, but nothing. Maybe you will have better luck:wink: With levels that low, I doubt the max cal would go over 1.5%. It's probablly good for a LBP, but I would like to know the max levels


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## buddy97 (Mar 29, 2010)

SpooOwner said:


> Thanks, Buddy. I wasn't sure which was more important: the ratio or the Ca level.
> 
> If 1.5 is our new cutoff, then I'll remove a bunch from the initial list. Too bad, it had the makings of a nice rotation with lots of variety.


i guess there is no real "official" cutoff. i wouldnt exclude orijen at 1.6% max, but that is a food that has established a good track record so with many large breed dog owners.


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## Jenny (Dec 7, 2010)

Hi!

I would like to read, if somebody has used Acana Wild Prairie or Pacifica for medium/large breed puppies. Have they grown steadily? Any problems? Would be grateful for all information, thanks! :smile:


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## cast71 (Sep 16, 2010)

Jenny said:


> Hi!
> 
> I would like to read, if somebody has used Acana Wild Prairie or Pacifica for medium/large breed puppies. Have they grown steadily? Any problems? Would be grateful for all information, thanks! :smile:


I have no experience with using acana with a LBP, but I suggest you keep the puppy lean while they are growing. This will prevent them from growing too fast. Do not go by the feeding chart on the bag, it's overkill. I am also interested in any feedback using acana for LBP's:smile:


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## cast71 (Sep 16, 2010)

Response from Nutrisca

"Hi,

 Thank you for contacting DOGSWELL®. I am glad to hear about your interest in our newest grain free and potato free dry food NUTRISCA™. The meats are not denatured and the meat is human grade. NUTRISCA™ is made in the US will all the meat, protein, fruit and vegetables sourced from the US , Canada or New Zealand . Less than 1% of our ingredients come from outside the US , Canada , or New Zealand as sometimes we cannot source certain minerals and vitamins from domestic sources. In the Lamb and Chickpea Recipe there is 2.22% calcium and 1.11% phosphorous. In the Chicken and Chickpea Recipe there is 1.7107% calcium and 1.135% phosphorous. I hope this helps to answer your questions. Have a good day!


Thank you, "

Looks like the chicken and chickpea recipe might be good for a LBP. The only concern is they use citric acid as a preservative. It's recommended to avoid citric acid to prevent bloat in deep chested breeds.


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## SpooOwner (Oct 1, 2010)

A neighbor feeds Acana Wild Prairie to her LBP, and the dog (a lab) is doing well, growing at about 2 lbs/week max.


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## SpooOwner (Oct 1, 2010)

I'll add the Nutrisca Chicken formula to the list.

Also, I heard back from Fromm:

Grain-Free Recipes of Surf & Turf and Beef Frittata
1.0% Calcium
0.9% Phosphorous

All other Four Star recipes:
1.2% Calcium
1.0% Phosphorous

Fromm's a sentimental favorite for me. My pup did well on their LBP formula before I switched to raw. In fact, I think she did best when she was getting raw beef in the morning and Fromm LBP in the evening (heresy, I know), though it might have been my impression simply because there was a huge difference in her coat soon after I started the transition to raw.


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## cast71 (Sep 16, 2010)

You have the note for citric acid next to fromm instead of nutrisca. The list is getting longer:biggrin:


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## SpooOwner (Oct 1, 2010)

Thanks for the catch, Cast.

It was looking bleak for a while there. Even so, most of the recipes are chicken- or fish-based. TOTW isn't my favorite, but variety is always good.


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## Jenny (Dec 7, 2010)

I cannot find the information anywhere, what is ash % in Acana Wild Prairie and Acana Pacifica (and other Acana foods). I counted it would be about 10,5 % in Wild Prairie and 9 % in Pacifica?? I think it's quite a lot... Orijen LBP and adult has "only" 7,5... Any comments?


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## SpooOwner (Oct 1, 2010)

That's a good question. I have never heard discussion of the Ash content. What's the significance? We can email Champion and find out.


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## Jenny (Dec 7, 2010)

Ash = all minerals. Please let me know if you get an answer, thanks! :smile:


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## SpooOwner (Oct 1, 2010)

Jenny - can you expand on that? (I.e. ash is a good thing? What are typical levels in other foods? How did you calculate the 10,5%? Where can I find out more?) Thanks!


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## Jenny (Dec 7, 2010)

Now I found... when I realized to read from pack itself, not only from internet... :biggrin: It´s 7,5n % in both, and that's "normal" I think. Too much or too little is bad, especially in growing dogs.

More information here:
http://www.dogfoodadvisor.com/choosing-dog-food/dog-food-ash/


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## SpooOwner (Oct 1, 2010)

Jenny - Here's the response I got:

ACANA Wild Prairie & Pacifica 7.5%
ACANA Grasslands 8.0%

Weird - that link doesn't really explain anything. But it does say not to focus on ash content ("All the same, don’t be overly concerned about ash.").


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## Jenny (Dec 7, 2010)

Thanks. I wonder why they don't publish all the information (such as max calcium & phosphorus, ash) about Acana to internet. They do publish them from Orijen...

Here is another link I found about ash / minerals: 
Minerals in Pet Food

How did I calculate?

Acana Wild Prairie:
Crude protein 33.0%
Crude fat 17.0%
Crude fiber 3.5%
Moisture 10.0%
Carbohydrate 26%

33+17+3,5+10+26 = 89,5%

100% - 89,5% = 10,5% 

Orijen adult:
Crude protein 38.0%
Crude fat 17.0%
Crude fiber 3.0%
Moisture 10.0%
Carbohydrate 25%

38+17+3+10+25 = 93%

100%-93% = 7% 

Orijen and Acana analysis says 7,5% ash, so you cannot calculate it very accurately... (max, min etc...)


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## BRT (Dec 1, 2010)

cast71 said:


> I have no experience with using acana with a LBP, but I suggest you keep the puppy lean while they are growing. This will prevent them from growing too fast. Do not go by the feeding chart on the bag, it's overkill. I am also interested in any feedback using acana for LBP's:smile:


My BRT is on Acana LBP for the last 4 months.He is now 7 months old. I give it along with RMB. If i give it separately in one meal, tosa has loose stools. Apart from the loose stools, Tosa i growing very lean and healthy.
I´ve heard in this thread that we should not give Orijen Regional Red to LBP but actually the guys from Champions recomended me to give either Orijen LBP or Regional Red to my BRT puppy. I don´t think it is dangerouse to give Regional Red for a LBP if it is not to be puppy´s 100% daily food intake. Tosa´s daily intake is around 25% Kibble and 75% RMB, so i think its safe to give Regional Red. What do you guys think?


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## SpooOwner (Oct 1, 2010)

I just checked Champion's website, and the Ca and Ph levels are fine: 1.6-1.8% and 1.4-1.6%, respectively. Was there another reason why we vetoed this formula? Or did they change their formulas, lowering the Ca/Ph?

Also, this will be an evolving list, so feel free to keep checking....


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## BRT (Dec 1, 2010)

Thanks SpooOwner!


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