# Barking!



## lorih1770

Has anyone successfully stopped unnecessary barking? Citronella collar? Shock collar? Ideas? 

I have a crazy St. Bernard with anxiety/fear aggression issues. I used a remote shock collar a couple of years ago to control the barking. I used it for 2-3 months. It helped quite a bit and he is MUCH better than he used to be. I stopped using the collar because of his issues, I didn't want to make the fear aggression worse. He still barks anytime he sees anyone outside ( as far as he can see) or whenever hears any strange noise. I don't want him to never bark, but a neighbor complained and I don't want him to be the neighborhood nuisance either. He's always in the house except for a potty break or if I'm outside with him.


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## rannmiller

Something I've started doing to curb my dog's barking (at this very moment actually) is to keep her on leash with her prong collar on so that every time she goes to bark inappropriately, I give her a correction and say "that's enough." When she shuts up, I praise her. This, of course, is only effective if I keep her on leash inside so I can correct her whenever she barks. 

Other tactics I've heard is to only allow a certain amount of barks (because we all want our dog to bark at least once so people know you have a dog and feel less inclined to rob us), give a stimulus to make the dog bark, let the dog bark as many times as you want (three's a good number), say "that's enough" and if the dog continues barking, immediately put it in it's kennel. 

Or, when the dog starts barking, say "that's enough" and put it's favorite toy or bone in its mouth, then it can't bark. The dog then learns that that command means to stop barking and he'll get a reward.


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## nez

*barking*

Some people say this is good ,some not,but I use a spray bottle with water in it,when my pack bark the one that is barking gets sprayed .
It stops them ,some say its not a good way,but when they start barking,it is way better then yelling at them.
works for my pack,best of luck,nez


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## lorih1770

I tried the spray bottle of water and it didn't work. He LOVES water and LOVES getting sprayed in the face. LOL It was a reward instead of a deterrent.


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## rockymtsweetie82

I looked up bark collars today actually for my dog and I found some on eBay that are no shock collars. They transmit this high frequency noise that is supposed to deter the dog from barking. It's supposed to be a negative sound to make them stop barking. More like a trainer than a reprimand, like the shocker. I won't use a shock collar because of the breed of dog I have. I was advised against it. However, this transmitter collar, might just be the answer I"m looking for and so might you! They're fairly cheap on eBay too, brand new about $20. Take a look and GOOD LUCK!!!


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## rannmiller

Yeah, my mom tried one of those, but it was like a place it in the living room and when the dogs bark, it emits the sound and the dogs stop barking. My mom's dogs couldn't care less. My roommate said the loud-noise collar didnt work for her dog either. Just a thought.


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## RawFedDogs

lorih1770 said:


> Has anyone successfully stopped unnecessary barking? Citronella collar? Shock collar? Ideas?


Come on, folks. I can't believe all the different ways y'all have come up with to punish your dogs for doing what dogs do naturally. Shock collars? WOW! Jerks on pinch collars? another WOW! Squirt in the face with water? Not as bad but still not good. Would y'all treat your kids this way? Dogs aren't born knowing how to live in the human world. It is our responsibility to teach them proper behavior in a positive way.

This is the reason you hire a positive reinforcement professional trainer. They know how to handle problems like this without cruelty. The way to fix a barking problem is so easy AND IT ACTUALLY WORKS!

I am a clicker trainer (retired) and have taught clicker training for years. When the dog is barking you simply walk up to it and in a pleasant voice say the word "quiet". Wait for 5 seconds of no barking, click, and treat. It doesn't take the dog long to learn when you say "quiet" and he stops barking, he will get a tasty treat.

When you get 5 seconds of silence pretty reliably, wait for 10 seconds before clicking and treating. When 10 seconds is reliable, move to 15 seconds and so on. Usually by the time you get to 20 seconds, your problem is solved.

After he is reliable with treats, start weaning him off the click/treats by clicking and treating 3 out of 4 times he quits. Always praise him and rub him some whether he gets the click/treat or not. After a period of time click/treating 3 of 4 times, change to half the time. Then go to 1/4 the time and finally you can eliminate the clicker for that behavior.

If you are not a clicker trainer you can substitute an enthusiastic "YES!" or "GOOD BOY!".

When my dogs were bad barkers, It would usually be them barking out the window at someone walking down the street in front of the house. I would go to the window and say something like, "Oh, thats Mrs. Jones. She lives up the street. Its ok for her to be there. Thank you for letting me know. Now quiet." Usually the dog had stopped barking before I finished talking. All I had to do was wait 5 seconds of silence to click and treat.

If they don't stop barking when you start talking, simply say "quiet" and wait for the barking to stop. It MAY take 5 minutes. Just wait. After 5 seconds of silence, click/treat. If you have multiple dogs, as soon as each dog stops barking click/treat THAT DOG after 5 seconds, even if the other dog is still barking. They will learn even faster that way.

There is no reason to mistreat your dogs when you can teach them using positive methods. There is ALWAYS a positive method to teach your dogs anything.


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## rockymtsweetie82

and the high transmission noise? How is that inhumane?


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## lorih1770

Thanks Rawfeddogs! I support positive training 100%. We have seen a behaviorist and gone through alot of obedience. Clyde (the barking dog) listens very well and will stop barking as soon as I say "no bark". I started following your suggestion with the treats last night. He's improved so much since I've had him, but I recieved a hate letter from an anonomous neighbor the other day. He's not really that bad. I think I have a dog hating neighbor. I'm guess I'm just trying to get him to not bark as often and keep him quiet while I'm not home. I considered a bark collar only to stop the barking when no one is home. Looks like I need to work a little harder at my training.  

I saw the ultrasonic bark collar, but with multiple dogs I think it would create confusion.


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## RawFedDogs

rockymtsweetie82 said:


> and the high transmission noise? How is that inhumane?


You have to remember that dog's hearing is much stronger than ours. To see what the sonic collar does to your dog, get one of those compressed air horns and have someone follow you around for a day and blast it towards you everytime you say something.


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## RawFedDogs

lorih1770 said:


> I'm guess I'm just trying to get him to not bark as often and keep him quiet while I'm not home. I considered a bark collar only to stop the barking when no one is home.


If he is barking at people walking down the street when you are not home, don't let him have access to rooms where he can see the street out the window. If he is barking at noises like kids playing outside, there isn't a lot you can do while you are gone. Keep working on what you are doing and it will improve.

You definately don't want to get a bark collar if there are other dogs in the house. Another dog barking will cause the collar to "activate". 

Funny (in a strange way) story:
My brother got a bark shock collar for his dog one time. The dog stayed outside. The first day it was on, my brother came home from work and the dog was frozen still in the back yard. It seems that the tags rattling on his regular collar would cause the bark collar to shock him so he had to just freeze in place so the tags wouldn't rattle.


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## rannmiller

Haha, that is a funny and really sad story. Poor pup!


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## Rexandbaby

I don't think that shock collars should be used for when other things can work. There are times that they are helpful, but right now, I can't think of one.


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## rockymtsweetie82

Ok, so I've been using the clicking happy voice thing when China is barking...It's not working. She never quits. It's constant barking and complete disregard for my attention. Does anyone have any other suggestions other than "being patient and waiting"?? My neighbor really doesn't like being barked at just for going to his own shed every day.


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## RawFedDogs

rockymtsweetie82 said:


> Ok, so I've been using the clicking happy voice thing when China is barking...It's not working. She never quits. It's constant barking and complete disregard for my attention. Does anyone have any other suggestions other than "being patient and waiting"?? My neighbor really doesn't like being barked at just for going to his own shed every day.


Hehe, what did you expect a miracle cure??? LOL These things take time and consistancy. If I remember correctly, you are at work all day and you have only had 3 days to work on this problem. Believe me it works. While you are gone, confine the dog to a place in the house where she can't see the neighbor's house or shed. When she starts barking at the neighbor and you are there, walk up to her (not in an excited happy way but an authoritave confident way), tell her matter of factly but frinedly way that it's ok for the person to be here and to be quiet. Then you wait. You may have to way 15 minutes or more but the dog WILL stop barking. Wait for 5 seconds of silence then reward and praise her and walk away. Don't get all excited or make a big deal out of it. Just a "Good girl" in a friendly voice and give her a treat at the same time.


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## rockymtsweetie82

Remember wrong. I'm a stay at home mother and am with these dogs constantly. I've been working with her on this for more than 3 days as the collar idea was more of a last resort. Simply enough, coming across this post was more for seeing if there were any BRIGHTER ideas than just waiting it out since it's been almost her whole 10 months of her life having to deal with this. She barks at the neighbors ACROSS the street when they pull in or out of their driveway. I say, "Neighbors" And she shuts up. But saying it when my neighbor right next door is outside in his own yard, doesn't work. She ignores me and continues to bark at him until I go out there in her pen all pissed off and stand by her until she shuts up. I don't touch her, I don't make a noise. I just walk to her and stand there staring at her. Then she shuts up. Then I praise her. I do not treat my dogs. They get beef sticks when I feel like giving them out and they get rawhide bones when I feel like buying them. So the "believe me it works" theory just went out the window. It doesn't work. She still barks when she's out there in her pen. No matter what.


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## pgnation

my mom just started working at home, and she's solved this problem very well.
I'll ask her for her personal solution later, but I think I have a general idea.

First, we crate our dogs. Whenever we're gone, they're bad, or just need to be put somewhere. (and by no means is it considered a BAD place to be. They consider it their "2nd home" ... and my dog will sleep in her crate instead of outside willingly)

I know for a fact she uses a positive training method. And I do not consider a Squirt bottle (not a squirt gun) as unpositive. (yes if your dog likes the water, you have to find something else) She does know clicker training, but hasn't used it in some time. But what I believe she did was just a consistant use of praise while the dog is quiet (when nothing is around) and then a MASS amount of praise when someone is around and the dog is quiet. Of course if your dogs starts to bark, you must be on it IMMEDITATELY! You cannot let it happen for minutes until you control it. (if you control it) She uses the squirt bottle and tells the to be quiet, when they are, it's mass praise!
It's like a simple comparison here...
Barking = $50, while your current method of praise for not barking = $5 ... Which would you choose?


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## RawFedDogs

rockymtsweetie82 said:


> She ignores me and continues to bark at him until I go out there in her pen all pissed off and stand by her until she shuts up. I don't touch her, I don't make a noise. I just walk to her and stand there staring at her. Then she shuts up.


Looks like I may have misunderstood something. Does the dog live inside or outside?



> Then I praise her. I do not treat my dogs.


You should, it's a very good teaching aid.



> They get beef sticks when I feel like giving them out and they get rawhide bones when I feel like buying them. So the "believe me it works" theory just went out the window. It doesn't work. She still barks when she's out there in her pen. No matter what.


A couple of things. It DOES work. I have seen it work hundreds of times. This is not a training problem, it is a behavior problem and they generally take much longer to get a handle on than teaching a dog to sit. 3 days is no where near enough time. If the dog lives outside, you might as well forget it, the problem can't be solved.


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## RawFedDogs

pgnation said:


> First, we crate our dogs. Whenever we're gone, they're bad, or just need to be put somewhere. (and by no means is it considered a BAD place to be. They consider it their "2nd home" ... and my dog will sleep in her crate instead of outside willingly)


So, are you saying that when it's inconventient for your dog to be around, you put her in the crate?



> I know for a fact she uses a positive training method. And I do not consider a Squirt bottle (not a squirt gun) as unpositive.


The opposite of "positive" is "negative", not "unpositive" but yes, squirting a dog in the face is a negative behavior.



> She uses the squirt bottle and tells the to be quiet, when they are, it's mass praise!


A positive reinforcement trainer would never use a squirt bottle. A positive reinforcement trainer rewards good behavior and ignores bad behavior. Squirting a dog in the face is punishment. Punishment is negative.



> It's like a simple comparison here...
> Barking = $50, while your current method of praise for not barking = $5 ... Which would you choose?


A positive trainer would create the opposite situation.


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## pgnation

Yes I put my dog in a crate when it's "inconvenient."
Would I rather come home to a mess of my stuff chewed up because she's unsupervised or come home to a happy dog that's done nothing wrong? I think anyone that's had any dog ruin their things would choose the 2nd option. And like I said, a crate isn't anything negative at all. They will happily sleep in my bed when I allow them (and yes that's a specialty not a given) and when they need their own quiet time it works fine as well. You will never see my dog cringe or hesitate to go into a crate thinking "I've been bad and I know this is only a BAD place..." Also... Not everyone is dog friendly, or they're simply terrified of the Doberman stereotype, which my dog is a complete spoof of it... A crate is one of the best places for my dog to go, it's in my room and away from the guests.

Also, please rip-out my sentences and make it look bad also... negative, unpositive ... SAME THING.

And I talked with my mom today. I was using my observations of her using a squirt bottle when positive praise isn't possible. She's a work-at-home lawyer that has many conference calls going on all throughout the day. She cannot simply stop doing her work and wait for a dog to stop barking. Nor can she leave and crate the dog... So it's a "last resort"
So I guess "sorry" for the observation, but it's as positive as you can be in the current situation.

And saying my comparison isn't positive? Wow.
Maybe I didn't explain it enough ... for you
when you're praising your dog (like my $5 comparison) it's obviously not working...
Because they feel like they're getting more of a reward out of it.
So you need to praise MORE... like I said... MASS PRAISE! ... making your praise for your dog not $5 but $100. Hence positive training.

Also to your 1st of the double post... Not all methods work for all dogs. Uniqueness does have its own ways of solving things as well. Of course, the majority may work ... but it's a majority and not all... Some dogs have specific ways in which things are solved. Just because you've seen it done "hundreds of times" ..


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## rockymtsweetie82

Both of my dogs live inside. The sleep on my couches, on my bed with me when I allow it, they play with my children and have the same comfy environment as we do. The fenced in area outside is where they go to for potty breaks and for when we're not home. Other than that, she lives inside. 

And again, it's been more than 3 days. How much should I have to say that? I've been working on her with her barking since she was a little puppy. And yes, she's only 10 months old, so she's still young and I'm trying to get a handle on it immediately. 

I don't treat my dogs during training because there's no need of it. I've seen dogs trained with them and without them and feel they're better without them. Lots and lots of praise is a great training tool and I don't feel that handing her some tasteless treats are going to help her in any way. I learned that from Cesar Milan and prefer to continue to do it that way. 

So after reading your pick-aparts of my post, I love how people only read what they want to read and jump to conclusions.


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## Rexandbaby

I think that sometimes, especially when trying to teach or change a behavior, that treats can be beneficial. Then, you kind of wean them off, while praising good behavior.
And of course, you can buy something that tastes good for them like liver treats or something.:biggrin:


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## RawFedDogs

pgnation said:


> Yes I put my dog in a crate when it's "inconvenient."


A properly trained dog will never be "inconvenient" to have around. I have 2 Great Danes that live in my house. It is never inconvenient to have them around. There is no crate in my house. They are never locked away in another room. They are never "put" outside. They can open the door and go out when they want but they are never put out nor told to go out.



> Would I rather come home to a mess of my stuff chewed up because she's unsupervised or come home to a happy dog that's done nothing wrong?


My dogs have a lot of unsupervised time in the house alone and I never have to worry when I walk in the door that something will be damaged. Don't get me wrong ... When Thor was a puppy, he destroyed some stuff but it was part of his learning experience. By the time he was 6 months old, he was capable of being left alone. Crates are great for puppies but the goal should be to be able to eliminate it.



> I think anyone that's had any dog ruin their things would choose the 2nd option.


A dog properly taught how to live in a human world won't destroy anything.



> Also... Not everyone is dog friendly, or they're simply terrified of the Doberman stereotype, which my dog is a complete spoof of it... A crate is one of the best places for my dog to go, it's in my room and away from the guests.


Listen ... both my dogs are around 145lbs. NO ONE is hesitant to come into my house with them. We have company pretty frequently and the dogs know how to behave. Generally they will sniff the guest then lay on the floor as close to me as they can get. We had 6 adults visiting the other night. THey stayed about 3 hours and the dogs didn't bother any of them and there were a couple who definately NOT dog friendly. Dogs properly taught how to act around guests won't be a bother.



> Also, please rip-out my sentences and make it look bad also... negative, unpositive ... SAME THING.


Not the same thing ... "unpositive" is not a word. You are in college, you should know that.



> And I talked with my mom today. I was using my observations of her using a squirt bottle when positive praise isn't possible.


What is a time when praise is not possible?



> She's a work-at-home lawyer that has many conference calls going on all throughout the day.


Oh, sorry, I thought you said she was a dog trainer.



> She cannot simply stop doing her work and wait for a dog to stop barking. Nor can she leave and crate the dog... So it's a "last resort"
> So I guess "sorry" for the observation, but it's as positive as you can be in the current situation.


Again, a dog who is properly taught how to act in the human world would not have this problem. If my dogs are barking and simple "quiet" will stop them.



> And saying my comparison isn't positive? Wow. Maybe I didn't explain it enough ... for you
> when you're praising your dog (like my $5 comparison) it's obviously not working...
> Because they feel like they're getting more of a reward out of it.
> So you need to praise MORE... like I said... MASS PRAISE! ... making your praise for your dog not $5 but $100. Hence positive training.


No, I knew very well what you were saying. You misunderstood me. What I was saying is that you should change the situation around to where barking was worth $5 and not barking was worth $50. For a dog who has been properly taught how to live in the human world, a simple word "quite" is all that is necessary to stop barking.

Hehe ... a funny story ... I once had a Golden Retriever who would bark out the window at people walking down the street. Big LOUD barks. I would say, "Skylar, quiet". Then she would continue barking but in little tiny almost whisper like barks. 



> Also to your 1st of the double post... Not all methods work for all dogs.


Thats a common misconception of people who don't really understand real training principles. If you use postiive reinforcement training methods to the exclusion of any negative methods you can teach any animal to do anything he is capable of doing. There are no exceptions. 

I have been a professional trainer for 15 years. I have trained dogs, cats, rats, mice, birds of prey, and chickens. I have observed and worked with trainers of elephants, rhinos, gorillas, orangs, killer whales, and dolphins. I have read maybe 50 books on animal training and attended many seminars.

I have used all kinds of training techniques from the most negative to the most positive and all in between. I can tell you with authority that any animal including humans respond best to positive reinforcement training.

Dogs in particular, being social animals will follow a leader and do whatever is asked of it if it understands what it is the leader wants. Yes, it's possible to beat a dog into submission. Is that the way you want to treat your companion? Is that the way to get loyalty from him?


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## rockymtsweetie82

RawFedDogs said:


> I have used all kinds of training techniques from the most negative to the most positive and all in between. I can tell you with authority that any animal including humans respond best to positive reinforcement training.


Including humans? I'm a US Marine and in boot camp they come no where near using Positive Reinforcement Training with their recruits. I believe it's the negative that helps the humans train better. Yes, different for dogs, but just thought I'd point that out.


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## RawFedDogs

rockymtsweetie82 said:


> Both of my dogs live inside. The sleep on my couches, on my bed with me when I allow it, they play with my children and have the same comfy environment as we do. The fenced in area outside is where they go to for potty breaks and for when we're not home. Other than that, she lives inside.


Then don't let her outside alone until this problem is solved. You are setting her up to fail and she is fulfilling that. Don't say you have to let her out, figure out a way to keep her in except when you can accompany her out to potty. 



> And again, it's been more than 3 days. How much should I have to say that?


But you have been spinning your wheels. You have only been using my method for 3 days. Everytime you leave her outside to bark, you are wiping out any progress you made while she was inside. Barking is a reward to her and she is being rewarded for unwanted behavior. Of course its not going to stop.



> I've been working on her with her barking since she was a little puppy. And yes, she's only 10 months old, so she's still young and I'm trying to get a handle on it immediately.


As long as she is alone outside, she will never learn.



> I don't treat my dogs during training because there's no need of it.


The best animal trainers in the world use treats. While it's possible to train without them, they are a great tool and make teaching much easier AND FASTER. It makes keeping attention much easier. As Rexandbaby said, once a behavior is learned, you wean the treats away for the particular behavior you are teaching at that time.



> I've seen dogs trained with them and without them and feel they're better without them.


Your feeling is wrong. You, like many peope, have the mistaken impression that if you use treats to teach your dog, you must have a treat forever to get him to do anything. That is a 100% incorrect assumption.



> Lots and lots of praise is a great training tool and I don't feel that handing her some tasteless treats are going to help her in any way. I learned that from Cesar Milan and prefer to continue to do it that way.


I never said don't praise. If you learned all you know about dog training from Cesar, you know very little. Cesar is a very mediocre trainer. He's a great actor and self promoter but a very mediocre trainer. He doesn't accomplish anything on his show that tens of thousands of dog trainers don't do every day. His methods are very outdated. They were used 40 years ago but not today. So much more is known about dog training today than it was then. He was taught to train by his grandfather. That should tell you something. He says just enough things that are correct on his show to give him credibility with the general public who have never trained a dog in their life. 

Never forget, when you watch Cesar, you are watching a carefully scripted TV show. When you see a 15 minute segment where a dog was taught a better behavior, it took several trainers several days working with the dog to get him to behave that way. You don't see what happens when the camera is off.



> So after reading your pick-aparts of my post, I love how people only read what they want to read and jump to conclusions.


When I trained dogs, I would have a very lengthy interview with the client to determine exactly what the problem was, what the living conditions are, how the owner and dog relate to each other. I don't have that luxury here.

I also can show in person how properly teach the dog what he needs to learn. I don't have that luxury here either. All I can do is tell you and hope that you are visualizing the same picture I am.

You said you had a problem with your dog and asked for help. I gladly gave you that help for free. Peopls pay me big bucks to solve a problem like you have.


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## rockymtsweetie82

Glad they pay you the big bucks. I'm not using 'your method' as you say here. I'm continuing to use my method. She only goes outside when she has to potty. I already stated that. Yes, she's outside when we leave. But I'm a stay at home Mom and do not leave often at all and when I do leave, I'm gone for a couple hours at most, when usually one of my dogs comes with me. I'm consistent without the treats and it does work. Hence me saying "Neighbors" and her shutting up, but that only works when we're inside. When she's outside for her potty break, that's when she gets rowdy and barks at the neighbor and I can't make her stop aside from bringing her inside away from the situation. But she needs to learn while she's out there to stop. Me removing her from the situation is not helping her or me. So I need to find a better approach to this. I personally would not pay a know-it-all to train my dog.


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## pgnation

I would continue using your method as long as you see success and improvement in your dog. As much as I've heard people in reallife and forums about crates, if the person actually considers it and uses it properly then it's a great success for both the human and the dog.
I'm uncertain about you saying


> me removing her from the situation is not helping her or me.


 as in you're denying the crate idea or something else, maybe you could clarify.

But a crate being used for when you're leaving the house would be probably the most successful option of the ones listed. 
Your dog gets to see so many things and distractions when outside alone, and that's most likely a good reason why your dog is so crazy outside even when you're home. Yes our dogs are slightly crazy when we take them outside, but they've got a LARGE LARGE prey drive. (not saying that they're not controllable... but it would be a massive amount of time and patience to see any improvement in fixing, and it takes away the actual things dogs do...)

I agree with you that controlling them when outside is prettymuch impossible...


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## RawFedDogs

rockymtsweetie82 said:


> Including humans? I'm a US Marine and in boot camp they come no where near using Positive Reinforcement Training with their recruits. I believe it's the negative that helps the humans train better. Yes, different for dogs, but just thought I'd point that out.


I'll bet once you were out of boot camp things changed. Boot camp is designed to get into physical shape quickly, build comrodery, and to break the human spirit so the human can be re-moulded into something else. It's an old and outdated method. It began when we didn't have the knowledge we have today.

Boot camp is in the same mold of the few old dog trainers of today who still use adversives to train dogs. "It's worked for me for 30 years and I'm not going to change." Same with boot camp.

Thank you for serving our country. We all owe you a great debt. You have my respect. But that doesn't mean I agree with everything you say. :smile:


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## rockymtsweetie82

I just meant removing her from the situation isn't correcting her and teaching her that he's allowed to be in his yard and she doesn't need to bark at him so I'm hoping to find another solution to correct it there. She is crate trained but as of right now, only have one crate and two dogs so we just keep them together when outside. Our male rarely barks (probably cuz China barks enough for the both of them!! LOL) so she's not alone, but maybe protecting us? I'm not really sure why she barks so much. If I had a second crate I'd rather them be crated in my house where it's warm (especially where the cold weather will be joining us soon) then outside while we're gone especially when we can't take them with us.


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## rockymtsweetie82

Never said you had to agree with anything I say, much like I agree with hardly any of the advice you give to half the people on this board. You are, probably, well respected dog trainer. Yet you go around demanding that your way, and only your way is correct. You seem to "know it all" and that's not right. You don't understand every situation so you jump to conclusions. Like when you mistook me for someone who was never home with my animals but demanded results right then, which I of course, am not who you apparently thought I was. I come on here for advice, suggestions, kind heartedness. Not to get downed and feel like my method will never work or feel like I'm an incompetant pet owner because my dog barks at my neighbor. And whether the boot camp training method has been around for years or not, point blank, it works. Much like me not giving my dogs treats for every little thing they do. Much like some people crating their dogs. And much like others keeping them in a fence all day. Everyone has their own methods of how to do things. Doesn't mean they are right...But it also doesn't mean they are wrong. Just because something works for you doesn't mean it's going to work with everyone.


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## RawFedDogs

rockymtsweetie82 said:


> Glad they pay you the big bucks. I'm not using 'your method' as you say here. I'm continuing to use my method.


How long have you been trying your method? Is it 10 months? It's not working. I get called when the other methods don't work. As I have said before, you can not teach the dog while you are not there. Everytime you put the dog outside alone, you are encouraging her to continue her habits.



> She only goes outside when she has to potty. I already stated that.


Then stay out there with her until she if finished then take her back inside. Leaving her outside alone is sabatoging your efforts.



> Yes, she's outside when we leave. But I'm a stay at home Mom and do not leave often at all and when I do leave, I'm gone for a couple hours at most, when usually one of my dogs comes with me.


Five minutes is too long for this dog to be outside unsupervised at this point.



> I'm consistent without the treats and it does work.


I didn't say it doesn't work. I said it is faster and more effective to use treats. But you have been working on this problem for 10 months so what do I know? You are not being consistant ... being consistant means you will be right with her every time she barks. She often barks and no one tells her any different.



> When she's outside for her potty break, that's when she gets rowdy and barks at the neighbor and I can't make her stop aside from bringing her inside away from the situation. But she needs to learn while she's out there to stop.


Then bring her inside and away from the situation, even if she hasn't pottied yet. She needs to learn she can't stay outside if she misbehaves. She can't do that if she is barking her head off. There are sound psychological principles that back me up on that.



> Me removing her from the situation is not helping her or me.


Actually, its the only thing that works. Leaving her out to bark while you are away from the house is certainly not working.



> So I need to find a better approach to this. I personally would not pay a know-it-all to train my dog.


So you WILL pay someone who doesn't know how to solve the problem? Hehe

I have done this hundreds of times. I know it works. I know it works every time. But if you want to spend another 10 months and still not make any progress, be my guest.


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## rockymtsweetie82

I don't just open the door and leave her out there. I stay there with her. She barks I bring her in. It's taking her from the situation which I figured wasn't helping since it's NOT working and I've been doing this for so long. I do stay there and wait for them to finish because it's a mud/dust pit and prefer them not to be rolling around in it. So yes, I am right there. She goes out, immediately runs to the fence and starts barking. I open the door, say "China, COME." She comes. And since that doesn't work, like you state it will since it's supposed to, I figured I'd find another way to approach it. Again, you're not right. Enough already with the wise a** remarks and never mind because you are obviously not the one helping give advice.


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## RawFedDogs

pgnation said:


> I would continue using your method as long as you see success and improvement in your dog. As much as I've heard people in reallife and forums about crates, if the person actually considers it and uses it properly then it's a great success for both the human and the dog.
> I'm uncertain about you saying as in you're denying the crate idea or something else, maybe you could clarify.


Correct. In certain situations, a crate is a very effective training tool. This is one of those situations.



> But a crate being used for when you're leaving the house would be probably the most successful option of the ones listed.


I agree.



> Your dog gets to see so many things and distractions when outside alone, and that's most likely a good reason why your dog is so crazy outside even when you're home. Yes our dogs are slightly crazy when we take them outside.


Again, I agree


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## RawFedDogs

rockymtsweetie82 said:


> I just meant removing her from the situation isn't correcting her and teaching her that he's allowed to be in his yard and she doesn't need to bark at him so I'm hoping to find another solution to correct it there.[\quote]
> 
> Any good trainer would tell you to remove the dog from a situation that is causing problems. The only way to correct it is to be there with her. Removing her the very instant she barks the first time will quickly teach her not to bark at this person.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> She is crate trained but as of right now, only have one crate and two dogs so we just keep them together when outside.
> 
> 
> 
> Thats not working. Get another crate or put one dog in a bathroom or laundry room.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Our male rarely barks (probably cuz China barks enough for the both of them!! LOL) so she's not alone, but maybe protecting us? I'm not really sure why she barks so much.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> By alone, I mean with a human there to handle the situation. Your other dog is not going to stop her from barking. Thats already been proven. There are several reasons she could be barking. Either she see's herself as a watchdog and is warning the pack that an intruder is near OR she is trying to get the neighbors attention so he will play with her or she could be trying to scare him off.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If I had a second crate I'd rather them be crated in my house where it's warm (especially where the cold weather will be joining us soon) then outside while we're gone especially when we can't take them with us.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Dogproof a laundry room or a bathroom and use that as a crate for one dog.
Click to expand...


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## RawFedDogs

rockymtsweetie82 said:


> Yet you go around demanding that your way, and only your way is correct.


I trained dogs professionally for 15 years. I have trained well over 1,000 dogs. I have read many books and attended many seminars and worked with many excellent trainers. I know the best way to do things. I have tried them all. I know what works and what doesn't. I know how a dog thinks and I know how a dog learns.



> Like when you mistook me for someone who was never home with my animals but demanded results right then, which I of course, am not who you apparently thought I was.


I did have to make some assumptions going by what you said but I did not have the luxury of a 2 hour in person interview.



> I come on here for advice, suggestions, kind heartedness.


I have given you much advice and many suggestions all of which you don't want to try. You want to continue doing what is not working. There is no other solution for your problem than what I have suggested. I guess I'm not kind hearted because I don't tell you what you want to hear. I tell you the truth and give advice about how to solve your problem.



> Not to get downed and feel like my method will never work or feel like I'm an incompetant pet owner because my dog barks at my neighbor.


Your method WILL never work. You can try it for 10 years and the results will always be the same. I never said or implied that you are a good pet owner, just that you need help solving this problem and you already know that. You are just refusing compitent help and making excuses why you can't to them.



> And whether the boot camp training method has been around for years or not, point blank, it works.


You could shoot your dog with a BB gun out the window everytime he barked and it would work. I don't think you want to do that. I certainly wouldn't recommend it.



> Much like me not giving my dogs treats for every little thing they do.


I told you that would work. I have trained many dogs without treats. My opinion of treats was exactly what yours is several years ago until I tried it and found how much easier and faster it is to teach something using treats.



> Much like some people crating their dogs.


There are times that a crate is a good training tool. I think this may be one of them.



> And much like others keeping them in a fence all day.


I can't tell you how much money I have lost by refusing to take clients who kept their dogs outside. I would tell them that I don't train outside dogs and they shouldn't waste their money training a yard orniment.



> Everyone has their own methods of how to do things. Doesn't mean they are right...But it also doesn't mean they are wrong. Just because something works for you doesn't mean it's going to work with everyone.


There is a best way to do anything. There are also ways that will never work in 100 years. If something works for me, I can teach anyone to use it and have it work for them.


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## rockymtsweetie82

I do remove her the second she barks at him and still after doing this, it hasn't helped, at least not quickly. And when I said 10 months, that meant her age. I obviously wasn't teaching her not to bark at 2 months old. At least not consistanly because it was cute. Probably a mistake on my part, but hey, it happened. As for proofing a bathroom, that would probably work best. I find that to be the best advice I've heard all day. Thanks.


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## rockymtsweetie82

RawFedDogs said:


> Your method WILL never work. You can try it for 10 years and the results will always be the same. I never said or implied that you are a good pet owner, just that you need help solving this problem and you already know that. You are just refusing compitent help and making excuses why you can't to them.


You're the one assuming my method won't work, yet everything I'm already doing, and have been doing for months now, is what you're telling me to do and that it WILL work. So you tell me which is right. The method you're telling me to use (aside from the treats part), is the method I've been using for months, yet it's not working even though you swear up and down it will. I'm consistent. I'm home all day. My dogs listen to me. The only thing China doesn't do is QUIT her darn barking. I remove her (like you say is the best thing to do) and I praise her when she barks and stops when I tell her. Yet, the whole barking outside thing isn't stopping. And now you're telling me the method won't work. 1) You're confusing me. 2)...No that's it. I'm just confused now.


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## RawFedDogs

rockymtsweetie82 said:


> I don't just open the door and leave her out there. I stay there with her. She barks I bring her in. It's taking her from the situation which I figured wasn't helping since it's NOT working and I've been doing this for so long.


OK, try this ... take her out on a leash ... a long leash of 20' or longer is ok if you wish. The INSTANT she barks, turn around and take her back in. Don't tell her "quiet", don't say anything to her. Just turn around and go back inside, she will have to come with you. This must be done instantly and you don't bargain with her trying to get her qiet.

The big major problem you have here is leaving her outside for a couple of hours at a time when you are not home. She MUST be brought back inside the INSTANT she barks so that there is no confusion as to why she is being taken in. If you hesitate 2 seconds, she won't understand why she is being brought back in. Maybe you could crate her and leave the other dog outside when you go somewhere.

As I said before, leaving her outside without your supervision long enough for her to bark a time or two will undo progress up to that point.



> So yes, I am right there. She goes out, immediately runs to the fence and starts barking. I open the door, say "China, COME." She comes.


Wait, a second. You just said you go out with her and don't leave her alone. Why would you have to open the door to call her?

If you use this method, you should call her the INSTANT she starts running towards the fence. Don't wait for her to start barking. With this method, once she starts barking, its too late. You can't do that if you are inside.



> Again, you're not right. Enough already with the wise a** remarks and never mind because you are obviously not the one helping give advice.


I am at a disadvantage that i can't watch you and show you were you are going wrong. It is probably timing. It could be tone of voice. If she comes good when you call her, call her the instant she starts towards the fence before she barks.

Again, be patient. This is not a problem you are going to solve in 3 days of using a different method. If you can completely solve it in 3 or 4 months to the point you can leave her outside and she won't bark, you will be doing good. Again, this is a behavior problem, not a training problem.


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## rockymtsweetie82

Open the door to go back in. When I take them out, I have to sit on the top step or they won't leave the steps (unless the neighbor's out). So when she barks, I open the door and tell her to come. She comes quite well. I'll try the leash thing instead since this whole taking her away from the situation thing isn't working, maybe I can gain her attention with a pull on her collar.


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## RawFedDogs

rockymtsweetie82 said:


> You're the one assuming my method won't work, yet everything I'm already doing, and have been doing for months now, is what you're telling me to do and that it WILL work.


Ok, you have been confusing me also so lets start from the beginning and I will give you a step by step.

1. Never let the dog outside without you there with her and she is on a leash. It can be a long leash. I forget what size dog she is but if she is small enough, you could use a clothes line for a long leash.
2. Forget treats for now.
3. The INSTANT she breaks for the fence turn around and start back inside. Don't say anything to her. Don't wait to see if she is going to bark, you know she will. Timing is critical with this. You must do it instantly.
4. Once you get to the point that she doesn't rush the fence when the neighbor comes out is the time to treat. After 5 seconds of her not rushing the fence, give her praise and a treat. Continue a treat and praise every few seconds until she breaks. The instant she breaks, go back to #3.
5. When she is reliable at 5 seconds, go to 10 seconds and to 20 seconds after 10 is reliable.
6. Be ready at any time to back up a step if she loses reliability.
7. When she is reliable for 20 seconds, try going out with her without a leash. Start again at 5 seconds and work up to 20 the same way as with the leash.
8. When she is reliable at 20 seconds and no leash, try walking back inside for 5 seconds, then come back out and treat and praise. Work up to 20 seconds on that. Before long you should get to 5 minutes being back inside and I think your problem is solved at that point.
9. Don't try to rush or shortcut the process. It will only sabatoge your efforts.

Again, its a long slow process to change a behavior. There will be bumps in the road. You will have to back up sometimes to the previous level. Be patient. It will happen. Don't get discouraged.



> I'm consistent. I'm home all day.


You can't be consistent if you are not outside with the dog every time she is outside.



> My dogs listen to me.


Cool, that will make things easier.



> I praise her when she barks and stops when I tell her. Yet, the whole barking outside thing isn't stopping.


In this situation, stopping the barking before it starts is the secret. Once the barking starts, its too late to do anything about it.

If you want to go the route of praising when she stops, you have to be patient. She will stop sometime. No dog has ever barked forever. It's easier not to let it start to begin with.

Are you still confused? If so, what are you confused about. I expect you to have some questions. Using this method of me teaching you leaves a lot to be desired. :smile:


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## RawFedDogs

rockymtsweetie82 said:


> Open the door to go back in. When I take them out, I have to sit on the top step or they won't leave the steps (unless the neighbor's out). So when she barks, I open the door and tell her to come. She comes quite well.


OK I misunderstood that part.



> I'll try the leash thing instead since this whole taking her away from the situation thing isn't working, maybe I can gain her attention with a pull on her collar.


No, you misunderstand what the leash is for. It is not to get her attention. It is to get her back in the house the quickest way possible, hopefully before she barks even one time. She must learn that bark = go inside even if pottying is not complete. You can take her back outside in 5 minutes or so.


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## rockymtsweetie82

Right, apparently I should've elaborated. Gain her attention to get her inside lol. I'll try it. Thanks


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## kirsti71

I know I am new here, and I hope I don't get in on the wrong foot.. I have had animals all my life and have done animal rescue for the past 7 yrs out of my home. I live in town on an acre of land and have all breeds of dogs- even hound dogs- I'm in Tx- I have never gotten a complaint. more than 90% of the dogs that come in have issues - one way or another. dogs are pack animals and need a leader-you- in the wild- yes all dogs go by the same learning methods- do not get rewarded with treats. You have to be consistent on your training-praise-whether you are at home or not. Yes crate training is okay. When the dog is doing something wrong remove them from that situation- get them re-focused and try again- they have to be relaxed and focused on what you want them to do. It might take a few times but it works. I have had barkers, fence jumpers, biters, dog aggression, cat killers- you name it- But it works -for me- I know alot of you are going to disagree and thats ok- dogs want to please their leader- I hope I didn't upset anyone. I just wanted to share my opinion-


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## rockymtsweetie82

I agree. My biggest mistake here was not being confident enough to think that what I was doing was already the right thing (Removing her from the situation). I'm going to try the various techniques associated with removing her from that area when she barks and try it with the leash and maybe even with treats...I haven't decided that yet. I do keep them, but they don't get them for corrective training. I agree with what you wrote. They need a leader and that leader is me (and my husband but I'm home more often). They are wonderful dogs and listen intently. Hopefully once I have this barking down I can say I have excellent dogs =D


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## Rexandbaby

okay, I have to say that crates can and do work for some. Mine were out of the crates by 6 months old. My JRT needed to be in her crate for years, at night, if not, she would poop on the floor.
I am not saying that crates are the way to go, just that sometimes with a certain dog, they help.

RawFedDogs has some good points, but I think that crates can and do work for some.

That is not what is talked about. 

If you have a problem with your dog, barking, or whineing or what not, you have to understand the problem. Is the dog aggressive? Or scared? Or just wanting you out there to make him feel like you are the leader?

If you cannot be there for your dog, outside, so that he/she cannot understand that barking is not right, just leave it in the house in a crate. You say that you may leave your dogs for 2 hours a week, so leave it inside, and go out with the dog to do its potty thing, so you can say "Neighbor" If you do this, then when it has learned that your neighbor is fine, then and only then can you leave it out while you are gone. 

RawFedDogs did have a point, if you just put the dog out there, and don't try to make it listen, then whatever you do in the house, is wasted. In the house the dog will listen, but outside, that is a different thing. 

(Sorry my daughter, But that is what I think)


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## rockymtsweetie82

1) The dog is not aggressive. Playful, protective, yes, but not aggressive. She doesn't seem to be scared. No hair raising, just jumping and barking. "Neighbor" works when we're inside, but not when we're outside. I do go out side with my dogs when I take them out because if I don't, they don't get off the stairs and do their business. I'm not crating my dogs or leaving them to roam in the house. They're young, they chew, they mess. Not an option. And I'm not crating because I only have one. I am thinking of trying the bathroom thing like rawfeddogs said, but we'll see how that goes. And the point you're protecting is nil because I have stated numerous times that I am out there, telling her to stop, removing her from the situation when she barks. I'll try the leash thing and see how that goes.


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## Luvmypups

Teach you dog to bark on command, he barks reward with a treat do this a few times, once you treat say Quiet when he's quiet, then say bark and treat, he's going to bark for that treat but remember to always say Quiet right after you treat, wait a few seconds so he's quiet then say bark and treat, go on and on doing this. when went he barks at a passer by say good boy Quiet. you want him to bark to let you know someone is there but when you say quiet he must be quiet.
Hope I'm making sense. 

Elaine


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