# Vets have contracts with kibble companies!



## evildiva (Jul 3, 2011)

This is part of a conversation on the Facebook group Poodles Worldwide in regard to the recent dog food recalls and transitioning to raw. Just highlights how vets are directly tied in to kibble manufacturers!!

Darlynn Webster
I am sick and scared of all these dog food recalls, I feed good food and pay top dollar and this what we get... GRR !! What so I do? Raw? Is there a simple raw way?

Donna Vuolo 
Raw can be dangerous also for the same reason as the recall. My nephew is a vet and messaged me. He advises his clients to go with the big companies like Purina (ONE or Proplan) or Hills science. There would be less incidence of recall. Hi=e says people are spending way too much on dog food and it's hard to balance cook yourself diets.

Nicky Jackson
Donna, I would check if your vet has a contract with certain feed companies hence his advice! I spoke to my vet before starting raw and asked his opinion and he actually admitted that he could not advise me because they had contracts with feed companies, Royal Canin ans Hills Science!!! I was quite appalled as I was under the impression that vets were there to do the very best for each and every animal! Apparantly that isn't the case!!!!


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## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

Oh My Lord. Purina and Hills are two of the WORST foods on the planet!

Yes, vets get paid for selling food out of their offices. They get a percentage, and they also get bonus money for selling in volume. In addition, their nutritional classes in vet school are normally sponsored by the food companies. There is one vet school that has named a building after Hill's - cant' remember the school right now.

Which is why you should NEVER take nutriotional advice from a vet. They aren't objective, and they make money if they are able to convince you to buy their Rx food.

If you can walk out of a vet's office with a bag of food, that vet is getting a percentage of the profit.

In reality, those Rx foods have some the cheapest, worst ingredients and they cost more than most dog foods.

And, that is just the tip of the iceberg with dog food companies. They do not have your dog's best interest at heart.

There are folks on this board from Scotland that feed raw - I know one is eternalstudent and hopefully he will see your post as he has good sources for raw food in your country, I think - if you want to try raw.

here is a getting started guide for raw - I think it's the best way to do it, the easiest, and you control the meat that your dog eats.
How to Get Started | Prey Model Raw

When your vet (or others) gives you a bunch of reason NOT to feed raw, take a look at this page. It is called "Many Myths of Raw Feeding" and you will see that the bad things people will say to you about raw are not true.
The Many Myths of Raw Feeding

Good luck - lots of people here to help. The bottom line is - don't trust the dog food companies, or your vet when it comes to your dog's nutrition. Their priority is money.


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## DaViking (Sep 27, 2011)

evildiva said:


> because they had contracts with feed companies, Royal Canin ans Hills Science!!! I was quite appalled as I was under the impression that vets were there to do the very best for each and every animal! Apparantly that isn't the case!!!!


Most of them are and do their best all day long (at insane prices though!) but when it comes to everyday nutrition you will get better advice elsewhere. Like here, training and competition circles, professional handlers, etc. Most vets sell one or two brands, you'll be better taken care of at pet stores with a good selection of brands. That being said, I don't think I have ever experienced any vet pushing their own products on me claiming it's better than I would get elsewhere. They either say nothing at all about food or they inform me about their selection and leaves it there. At our current vet office the technician ask us at each visit what we feed and how much so she can punch it into the computer and that's it. They have a big food store but they never try to sell us anything.


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## DaViking (Sep 27, 2011)

xellil said:


> In reality, those Rx foods have some the cheapest, worst ingredients and they cost more than most dog foods.


The Rx foods you are talking about is not the problem. In fact those are just fine since they serve a purpose in most cases. The problem is them selling the everyday maintenance lines from Hill's in addition, that's no good. The Rx foods, in particular the wet Rx foods are great at targeting specific needs over a short term. Would I take Medi-Cal over Hill's Rx? Absolutely if the option is there.


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## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

DaViking said:


> That being said, I don't think I have ever experienced any vet pushing their own products on me claiming it's better than I would get elsewhere.


Oh, I have. When Snorkels was going to the ER all all the time, the vets there repeatedly told me I was a neglectful owner if I didn't feed Science Diet.

Some vets will push services (like car mechanics) and try to get you to buy everything but the kitchen sink. 

My regular vet in Indiana wasn't like that. She didn't get me to waste money on unnecessary tests or food. I miss her more than anything else about Indiana.

My current vet sells three different Rx foods and pushes them, along with every test under the sun. My second visit with him, when he suggested I buy his dog food, I told him all his food was crap and never mention it to me again. 

So he hasn't - I'm still with him because he gives Snorkels laser therapy at a decent price but his HUGE waiting room is full of food and other products like a pet store.

And he was telling me about his swimming pool the other day. The swimming pool that Science Diet built, I'm sure.


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## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

DaViking said:


> The Rx foods you are talking about is not the problem. In fact those are just fine since they serve a purpose in most cases. The problem is them selling the everyday maintenance lines from Hill's in addition, that's no good. The Rx foods, in particular the wet Rx foods are great at targeting specific needs over a short term.


They only work short term, too. I gave a foster dog a horrible canned Rx food that was white and gluey. Her bladder stones went away, but when she went off the food they came right back. It's an expensive, temporary fix and does nothing but make money for the vets and food companies.

I know you and I agree on very little and we're not going to agree about this either. But I believe I could have changed that dog to raw food and helped her bladder issues long term. 

In fact, the food said you can't give it for more than a few weeks but it has no nutrition in it.

The one they wanted me to feed Snorkels was all corn and cellulose - the squirrels loved it because I actually bought the bag but couldn't bring myself to feed it to her.


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## DaViking (Sep 27, 2011)

xellil said:


> They only work short term, too. I gave a foster dog a horrible canned Rx food that was white and gluey. Her bladder stones went away, but when she went off the food they came right back. It's an expensive, temporary fix and does nothing but make money for the vets and food companies.
> 
> I know you and I agree on very little and we're not going to agree about this either. But I believe I could have changed that dog to raw food and helped her bladder issues long term.
> 
> ...


The majority of them are short term and target specific areas and therefor have a nutritional profile that is not fit for maintenance. In some cases they will restore a balance or clear an issue, in other cases they will only temporarily offer a solution while something permanent can be worked out. Some go ape***t when they see sub-par ingredients in Rx formulas but the truth is that those ingredients are there for a very good reason, not to add unwanted properties or side effects to the food. That is as important to the formula as the more "active" ingredients.

You might be totally right, the dog in question could been helped by a raw diet but that doesn't change the fact the while the owner/you figured out what to do, raw or what not, the dog was helped by the Rx food. And I am sure she appreciated that :smile:


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## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

Like I say, we definitely don't agree on this. I see it a totally different way. I don't see a three week reduction in kidney stones and then a return as anything to write home about. 

Most especially knowing the vet that prescribed it made money from it. If he/she had not been in the money loop by prescribing it, what would have been the solution to the problem? The same pricey food that someone else profited from? I kinda doubt it, frankly.


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## ciaBrysh (Dec 16, 2011)

IMO you are at much less of a risk at catching salmonella when feeding raw for two reasons
1. People tend to take more care when handling raw meat, washing their hands/work area
2. The US government has regulations on the meat that we feed our dogs, where dog food companies do not, if our meat in infected with salmonella, the government will do much more, at a much faster rate to fix the issue. There will hardly be time for a mass recall because they already would have taken care of most of the problem.


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## 7766 (Sep 20, 2011)

I am not saying these vets don't exist, I have just been lucky not to encounter them. I use two vets, my main one I use for annual check up is about 30-40 min drive. I have another I use for boarding and emergencies that is up the street. The latter is VERY expensive which is why I don't use them full time.

The latter treated my dog initially for hip dysplasia and my main vet reviewed the xrays and notes at her annual visit. Neither of them pushed any food on me. They suggested switching to a formula with high levels of Glucosimine but didn't specify the brands in their office or try to talk me into going home with a bag. If they pushed, I probably would stop using them. Then again like the rest of this board, I am an above average dog owner. Most people will take the food without question.

On the flip side, vet school loans are outrages and their are vet offices on almost every corner. You do what you can to stay in business. It is no different than doctors offering samples that the reps supply.


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## evildiva (Jul 3, 2011)

It wasn't me asking about raw feeding, it was someone on Poodles Worldwide who was thinking about switching. I've been feeding my standard poodle raw since I got him at 10 weeks old (he's now 9 months). The local vet's office is like a pet shop here... full of bags of Science Diet and other products. When the vet asked me what I feed, I told her, and she just said she doesn't agree with it and won't go into it further than that. So fair enough, but don't try pushing those bags of crap on me at the reception! They tried to give me a free sample bag of food as I was paying the fee but I turned it down of course. It would have gone straight in the bin anyway


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## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

nlboz said:


> On the flip side, vet school loans are outrages and their are vet offices on almost every corner. You do what you can to stay in business. It is no different than doctors offering samples that the reps supply.


Oh yes it is. If doctors made a profit from the meds they prescribe, they would go to jail.


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## 7766 (Sep 20, 2011)

xellil said:


> Oh yes it is. If doctors made a profit from the meds they prescribe, they would go to jail.


They don't make a profit, but the get rewards. I had reps take me out on deep see fishing trips when I worked at a Radiology Clinic. When I was in college I worked at an ENT clinic. We had free lunches catered by reps once a week. So they may have not peen paid with cash, but they got perks. The better the perks the more likely the doctor would order their drugs. 

The movie Love and Other Drugs is a very good look at the industry.


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## bridget246 (Oct 26, 2011)

I've been too lots of different vets. Yes they do get contracts from them. At least some do and this has been a known fact for awhile. Making a profit is making a profit. I don't care if that profit is a deep sea fishing trip or free tickets to the zoo. They trade in the dogs health so they can get these nice perks which are still considered profits because they have an actually value.


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## NewYorkDogue (Sep 27, 2011)

Sounds similar to the perks (free trips, etc.) that MD's get from the pharmaceutical companies...

And yet, in the end, who pays the price? Our animals do, and we all do... :tsk:


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## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

nlboz said:


> They don't make a profit, but the get rewards. I had reps take me out on deep see fishing trips when I worked at a Radiology Clinic. When I was in college I worked at an ENT clinic. We had free lunches catered by reps once a week. So they may have not peen paid with cash, but they got perks. The better the perks the more likely the doctor would order their drugs.
> 
> The movie Love and Other Drugs is a very good look at the industry.


That has all pretty much changed in the last few years, actually. If it's still going on, it's not legal. The FDA has really cracked down on that due to the relationships doctors had with sales reps. Everything has to be reported, there has to be a reason, only so many of certain types of people at any company paid meal, etc.

And the dog food business is no different, only there is no regulation. It's wrong.


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## 7766 (Sep 20, 2011)

I haven't worked in the Healthcare field in over a decade but when I did work in it, which was almost for a decade, the "perks" were very common. 

My ex-brother in law is a drug rep and he did the majority of his business on the golf course. His treat of course. The deep See fishing was a little extreme but when you are selling multi-million dollar equipment you get multi-million dollar treatment and perks.

Lucky for me I haven't had any pushy vet experiences.


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## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

It might be different with equipment, like your ex brother-in-law. That's a different ballgame than drugs.

I worked for a pharmaceutical company until last December. A few years ago my company got the biggest fine in history (at that time) for the way they marketed drugs. Because of that and a couple of other big companies doing similar stuff, the FDA has cracked down hugely.

Today I'm sure a salesman can take a doctor to the golf course although even that would be iffy and they better not be talking about prescription drugs. And if he pays for the course, lunch, anything and gets caught - that's big trouble.


The whistleblowers, by the way, are set for life  - maybe a few lives. We had to do dozens of hours more of compliance training every year, the paperwork was horrendous, and the FDA oversaw alot of stuff they didn't before. And I wasn't even in the marketing/sales area.

And what does that have to do with vets? Absolutely nothing. They are definitely in bed with the pet food manufactureres, it's very cozy in there, and they make money from the relationship.

If you don't ever have a pushy vet, you will be very lucky. Let's hope it never happens! I know I've had my fill of them.

Oh, and even though I wasn't in marketing I did work with vendors - I couldn't accept even a coffee cup from them. It all had to be educational. If they sent us candy we didn't have to return it, but we had to put it out for many people to share so it wouldn't seem like they were bribing us for contracts.


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## KittyKat (Feb 11, 2011)

xellil said:


> Yes, vets get paid for selling food out of their offices. They get a percentage, and they also get bonus money for selling in volume. In addition, their nutritional classes in vet school are normally sponsored by the food companies. There is one vet school that has named a building after Hill's - cant' remember the school right now.


Hill's Pet Nutrition Primary Healthcare Centre

Hill's Pet Nutrition Primary Healthcare Centre | University of Guelph


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

NewYorkDogue said:


> Sounds similar to the perks (free trips, etc.) that MD's get from the pharmaceutical companies...
> 
> And yet, in the end, who pays the price? Our animals do, and we all do... :tsk:


Glaxo built my ex husband's pool.


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## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

KittyKat said:


> Hill's Pet Nutrition Primary Healthcare Centre
> 
> Hill's Pet Nutrition Primary Healthcare Centre | University of Guelph


Thank you KittyKat! You are turning into our memories, aren't you? Can I adopt you?


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

xellil said:


> That has all pretty much changed in the last few years, actually. If it's still going on, it's not legal. The FDA has really cracked down on that due to the relationships doctors had with sales reps. Everything has to be reported, there has to be a reason, only so many of certain types of people at any company paid meal, etc.
> 
> And the dog food business is no different, only there is no regulation. It's wrong.


HAH. and to that i say HAH.

nothing's changed. it's just gone underground.


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## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

magicre said:


> HAH. and to that i say HAH.
> 
> nothing's changed. it's just gone underground.


I certainly believe that. You just do it so you don't get caught.


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