# Training method dilema



## eternalstudent (Jul 22, 2010)

I find myself at a bit of a crossroads in my 8 m/o pups training. Somethings have been going really really well. However, one thing I have been consistently failing at. Meeting other dogs and people in the street and park.

To get round this I have found myself going to less populated places, which has the effect that I think everything is great but it obviously is not.

I have been following a 100 % positive training method using a praise word for actions well done before treating. 

when I meet people my pup will try and pull towards them and no mater how much I pull back, jerk etc, works as a way of breaking the train of thought to re-direct. 

I have recently started using a check chain but I am finding that she will happily choke herself on it. 

I have found myself looking now into prong collars (which I never thought I would look at) and clicker training. Neither of which I have a great deal of understanding about.

I can use a head control lead but when on this I have an instantly obedient pup
but not a trained pup .

I take it clicker training can be started at any time in life?
Is 8 monts to young to be using leash corrections?

Any help comments welcomed!

(note. we are still in OB classes and in the class she is very good around the other dogs and when I need to control her around new people dogs I simply hold her in a sit position. This works fine in the class but not when walking.)


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## Khan (Jan 17, 2010)

If I were you I would make it a point to "go find people" instead of avoiding them. Teaching them to sit when a person approaches is Exactly what you want them to do. This is also part of the CGC testing. Your dog should be in a sit when someone approaches. The person can then "shake your hand" while your dog is in a sit. The dog can get attention from that person, a pat under the chin, only while they remain sitting. We practice this ALOT! Khan is 16 months and we STILL practice this. Khan loves people, so he is very excited when he sees someone who will pay attention to him. (he never gets that at home! LOL!) When we see someone on our walks or when we visit the pet store, Home Depot, etc. He MUST be in a controlled sit before I will allow anyone to pay attention to him. If he breaks the sit, the attention stops until he is calm. He knows what to do, I think his brain just gets so excited he forgets! I actually ask people to help me in our training. I think it's becoming more common (Thankfully) to have people/kids ASK if they can pet your dog. I tell them yes; but again, I ask them to please wait until I have him in a sit. I explain he is only allowed to have people pet him when he is calm. When he tries to jump, I correct him, put him in a sit, and we try it again. 
Hope this helps.
Keep up the good work!!


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## RawFedDogs (Jun 16, 2008)

eternalstudent said:


> To get round this I have found myself going to less populated places, which has the effect that I think everything is great but it obviously is not.


There is a method to handle this and I think you are skipping a critical step. Yes ... go to less populated places. Places where the dog can control himself. GRADUALLY increase the distractions allowing the dog to adjust to more and more people around, closer and closer.

Keep your distance from people for a while. There IS a distance your dog can handle. Give him treats while he is acting acceptably. Very gradually work your way closer to people. Watch your dog very carefully. When he is near his limit of maintaining control, stop the treats, turn around and walk about 10 feet back away from the people and let him settle some then begin again. You want to stop and turn around before he looses contol if possible. If he breaks, turn around anyway and get him further away and begin again.

This is not a quick fix and will take weeks, maybe months, to get him where you want him but he will be very reliable once you do.



> I have been following a 100 % positive training method using a praise word for actions well done before treating.


This is the same thing. In this instance you are praising and teating for no action. Treats stop when action begins. You don't need to jerk the leash or use any negative actions other than what is needed to move the dog further away from his distractions to a point he can regain control.



> when I meet people my pup will try and pull towards them and no mater how much I pull back, jerk etc, works as a way of breaking the train of thought to re-direct.
> 
> I have recently started using a check chain but I am finding that she will happily choke herself on it.
> 
> I have found myself looking now into prong collars (which I never thought I would look at) and clicker training. Neither of which I have a great deal of understanding about.


You can jerk, pull, yell while using choke chains, pinch collars or shock collars and you will still have the same problem until hell freezes over. Believe me, I've been that route for a long time.



> I can use a head control lead but when on this I have an instantly obedient pup but not a trained pup .


Yes, but there is a method you can use while using a head harness. To use this method, you have to leashes. One connected to head harness and one to the regular collar. You do this by starting off using the head harness leash only and don't put any pressure on the regular collar leash. Gradually you should be able to start switching and using less and less head harness and more and more collar without having to put a lot of pressure on the regular collar. Eventually you won't have to use the head harness leash at all and will have to put very little pressure on the collar leash. Just a little tug for guidance. Also you should use verbal cues during all this and hopefully the dog will eventually work off the verbal cues only. :smile:



> I take it clicker training can be started at any time in life?


Yes. I began with 2 10yo Golden Retrievers.



> Is 8 monts to young to be using leash corrections?


In my book, there is not an acceptable age to use leash corrections.

In my paragraph above about using the head harness & collar, when using the collar leash, you are not going to do anything resembling a correction. Just a light tug to encourage the dog to come back to you.



> (note. we are still in OB classes and in the class she is very good around the other dogs and when I need to control her around new people dogs I simply hold her in a sit position. This works fine in the class but not when walking.)


There is good reason for that. The dog was taught how to behave in class but he doesn't transfer that to the real world. With the methods listed above, he will. It's just a gradual process like switching to raw feeding :smile:
Good luck :smile:


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## BrownieM (Aug 30, 2010)

8 months is definitely not too young to be using a prong collar, leash corrections or clicker training. I began clicker training with Millie at about 2 months and continued until I had established most basic commands. Millie was about 6 months when I began using leash corrections with a flat nylon collar. She did not respond and I did not want to injure her trachea so I switched to a prong collar.

Anytime I want to teach Millie something new I always whip out the clicker :smile: I taught her how to spin in circles within minutes using the clicker the other week!

Re: head halters - I am not a big fan. Millie acted like I was torturing her and I felt as though I was simply "controlling" her rather than actually teaching her. She is _much_ less bothered by the prong collar. Additionally, what she has learned with the prong collar has translated to when she is not wearing the collar. On the contrary, whenever I took off the Gentle Leader, she would be right back to pulling. If anyone wants my Gentle Leaders, I have two that are barely used!


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## RawFedDogs (Jun 16, 2008)

BrownieM said:


> 8 months is definitely not too young to be using a prong collar, leash corrections or clicker training. I began clicker training with Millie at about 2 months and continued until I had established most basic commands. Millie was about 6 months when I began using leash corrections with a flat nylon collar. She did not respond and I did not want to injure her trachea so I switched to a prong collar.


I know this is probably upset you but I just don't understand your logic. You say you teach your dog w/ a clicker which is wonderful BUT then you switch to the jerk and pull method afterward when she did not respond? Most people I know, once they learn how to use a clicker and positive training methods NEVER, EVER, UNDER ANY CIRCUMASTANCES ever regress back to jerk and pull again. And with a prong collar??? That just goes against all I learned in my 15 years as a professional dog trainer.

Once you have taught your dogs with a clicker there should never be a need to resort to adversive methods to elicit the proper behavior from him. I suspect you never really finished the training process. I suspect you taught him behaviors in the home and in the back yard and expected him to behave that way away from home. It just doesn't happen that way.

OR ... you taught him with the clicker and didn't know how to wean the clicker from him and he wouldn't "perform" without a clicker and/or treat in your hand. A properly clicker trained dog will never need to be jerked again in his life. I know this from years of experience with hundreds of dogs.

I have a 6 year old Great Dane who has never been jerked in his life. There has never been a need to. Does that mean he is perfect with every cue? Heck no, but there are other ways to motivate him to perform the behavior I ask without negativity.

I have an almost 11 year old Great Dane who in her younger years, before I knew better would stand on hind legs pulling against a prong collar. It had no effect on her at all. I did a lot of jerking and pulling on her before I learned about positive reinforcement only training.



> Anytime I want to teach Millie something new I always whip out the clicker :smile: I taught her how to spin in circles within minutes using the clicker the other week!


Isn't it a wonderful way to train? You can teach a dog anything with a clicker that you can with jerk and pull.



> Re: head halters - I am not a big fan. Millie acted like I was torturing her and I felt as though I was simply "controlling" her rather than actually teaching her. She is _much_ less bothered by the prong collar. Additionally, what she has learned with the prong collar has translated to when she is not wearing the collar. On the contrary, whenever I took off the Gentle Leader, she would be right back to pulling. If anyone wants my Gentle Leaders, I have two that are barely used!


When I was a professional trainer, I used halters sometimes on large dogs. They are wonderful when properly fitted and properly used. I can control a 150lb dog with one finger with a head halter and have many times. Properly introducing them can weaken some of the resistance you get from the dog.

You are right that transfering behaviors from the head halters to a regular colar is difficult but with the proper methods isn't real difficult. I've done it many times. A small owner with a big dog often has no choice but to use a head halter. With clicker training head halters are rarely needed.

If any of my potential clients insisted on using pinch collars or prong collars, I would tell them to find another trainer as I refused to use such out of date devices. After showing them better methods most of them hired me anyway. :smile:


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## BrownieM (Aug 30, 2010)

RFD - I very much respect what you have to say. The only thing that slightly offended me is the assumption that I was training my dog in the "backyard" and expected her to behave that way outside of the home. I enrolled her in training classes from 12 weeks on. Eventually I switched from group classes to personal training classes. When clicker training, she always the first to learn. She is a Standard Poodle - they are too smart for their own good :wink: She got her CGC at 6 months and I am considering competitive obedience. She is VERY well trained :biggrin: The advantage that I like about the prong collar is the reliability of commands (she WILL sit the very second I say sit. NO hesitation) and the increased speed in which she learns.

Also, the biggest rule IMO about using a prong collar properly is that you never, NEVER jerk or pull the dog. The dog's body should not be moved by the correction. If you are pulling the dog, that is wrong. I do a very _slight_ twist of my wrist which in turn slightly pinches her skin. I have put the prong collar on my own bare neck to ensure it is not painful. 

I think that clicker training is great. But, my dog learned even faster when I began using the prong collar. I do have patience, though. So I tend to only use the prong collar when building immediacy and reliability are important. In competitive obedience, I cannot afford to ask her to sit and have her "ponder" for a second. But anyway, now that she heals off leash, I probably won't use the prong collar much unless I decide to go ahead with training for competitive obedience. :wink:


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## RawFedDogs (Jun 16, 2008)

BrownieM said:


> RFD - I very much respect what you have to say. The only thing that slightly offended me is the assumption that I was training my dog in the "backyard" and expected her to behave that way outside of the home.


OK, understood. What I said is almost always the problem when potential clients stated the problem you are having.




> She is a Standard Poodle - they are too smart for their own good :wink:


Cool, the smarter they are the easier they are to clicker train and Standard Poodles are very smart dogs. I have worked with a few of them.




> She got her CGC at 6 months and I am considering competitive obedience. She is VERY well trained :biggrin:


Impressive. Keep it up.



> The advantage that I like about the prong collar is the reliability of commands (she WILL sit the very second I say sit. NO hesitation) and the increased speed in which she learns.


You can teach reliability and speed with clicker training. To increase speed you give a cue and if the response isn't faster than usual, no click/treat. Keep tightening the criteria until you have the desired speed reliably. When you give a cue and they perform a behavior they are used to getting treats for, they will definately work harder if they don't get a treat. Increasing speed, reliability and "sharpness" is one of the great benefits of clicker training. By "sharpness" I mean straighter sits etc. Keep tightening the criteria until you get the exact behavior you are looking for.

Don't expect to go from a slow crooked sit to a fast straight sit immediately and only work on one at a time. If you are working on speed, don't be too concerned if the sit isn't straight. When speed is good, move to straight sits and begin working on them. Only work on one criteria at a time and gradually increase the criteria is to where you want it. 

One thing to remember is to don't tighten the criteria so fast that the dog looses interest. Make sure the dog succeedes at least 80% of the time. If that goes away, you have moved faster than the dog is capable and you should loosen your criteria some and give the dog a chance to "catch up" before you slowly tighten it again. I hope I made sense during all that. I'm in a hurry and may not.



> Also, the biggest rule IMO about using a prong collar properly is that you never, NEVER jerk or pull the dog. The dog's body should not be moved by the correction. If you are pulling the dog, that is wrong. I do a very _slight_ twist of my wrist which in turn slightly pinches her skin. I have put the prong collar on my own bare neck to ensure it is not painful.


The whole power behind a pinch collar is pain. If it doesn't inflict pain, it would be no more effective than a leather or nylon collar. Think about that a little.



> I think that clicker training is great. But, my dog learned even faster when I began using the prong collar.


That means you need more practice with the clicker. Back in the days when I taught clicker training regularly I would click about 10 times a minute while teaching or "perfecting". Thats a lot of clicking and a lot of teaching and learning.



> In competitive obedience, I cannot afford to ask her to sit and have her "ponder" for a second.


Now you know how to prevent that with a clicker. I know you can't use the clicker in competitive obedience so you will have to know how to wean the clicker off for each behavior when the dog is ready.



> But anyway, now that she heals off leash, I probably won't use the prong collar much unless I decide to go ahead with training for competitive obedience. :wink:


In my last 2 or 3 years of professional training, even with novice dogs and puppies I never used a leash except when teaching loose leash walking. :wink: People don't realize that in normal pet training, leashes are just a crutch. Anyway, gotta run. I'll talk to you more tomorrow if you wish.


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## eternalstudent (Jul 22, 2010)

Thanks for the replies.

I need to change the behaviour which I am sure she has leant though my lack of lessons on the subject rather than me teaching wrong, if that makes sense. Twice in the last few weeks I have ended up in situations which I would rather not have been.

One was where she high tailed over to an older couple with an old shunzer where she completely ignored the dog but jumped straight up on the old lady, and if she was not an ex dobe owner I think there could have been problems.
The second was where my pup was of the lead in a mostly unpopulated park where we were doing some distance recall work and she spotted a dog and owner (probably 400-500 yards away) and decided to run off to play. The dog in this case was a known dog aggressive terrier being walked also off the lead by an owner who did not even have a lead with them!!

Yes I should have not had my pup of the lead in either cases needless to say lesson learned and will be avoided in the future. But I have to teacher not to do this

BrownieM your response is inline with what is suggested on the rotti forum I post on, and a lot of people there will agree with you- train until there is an understanding and fine tune with corrections. I have not got a clue how I am supposed to use leash corrections for a slow sit or down and being that I have never tried to force her to either of these positions its a huge change for her. No shops sell prong collars over here, and check chains are hard to come by in big retailers (they all still sell rope slip leads which I don't understand).

My feeling was always if I could stay away from the check collars completely I would be doing great but I guess I failed on that one along the way.

To go along with this when my pup pulled like a locomotive (at 12 weeks old) I used a twisted rope lead (as a bit-less bridle) to stop her. This worked an absolute treat. However, now when I put her on it her demeanour changes to complete oh god what have I done wrong. She won't fight it but she has no drive with it on. I still use it when I need complete control ie. walking past a pub at kicking out time!!

Yes with work I can make her go back to liking it 

Getting to the park will be the fun bit during more populated times  as it is quite a long distance that she gets excited about but we will work on it. I have just cut up 2lbs of roast chicken for treats in this.

I will get a clicker tomorrow when the shops open as much for anything to keep both of us interested in new training ideas and try and give her some new lessons as she can do most of the things she has been taught already all over the house (currently working towards turning the light switches on and off).


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## doggiedad (Jan 23, 2011)

i think you need to set up meeting people and other
dogs on the street. have people meet you as often as possible
with or without dogs. set meetings with people from your class. if you can't find anyone to train with use the pet stores or dog park. train and socialize often. train and socialize many times during the course of a day.


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