# Toy training



## bridget246 (Oct 26, 2011)

During this break I thought it would be a good time to also revisit the dog training. I want to mode Bridget's training. If, and this is a big if we have the money I will buy Bridget a new toy. This toy will only be used for a reward as a job well done and attention at me. I think I was getting much too heavy on treat rewards and found her only doing tricks for treats. I noticed she has picked a few commands that she ignores completely if there is no trick. So I thought there must be a way she picked some to ignore and others to follow every time. 

For example, stand. She will follow stand. Stand means join me in the bedroom. Or go for a walk. Sometimes it doesn't but it is usually rewarded as such but it is rewarded often enough for her to take it seriously. 

Stay is rewarded with a ton of praise. 

Down is general ignored and sit gets ignored half the time.

Recalls aren't done without food so I don't know if she would do if I didn't have anything. Which is fine with me. 

Retrieval is completely ignored unless rewarded. This also includes the find it game. 

Loose leash walking isn't ignored as much as I thought it would be. But I noticed it was rewarded with my voice. I'm talking with her when she is doing what I want her to do. She is looking at me talking to her. She notices when she isn't doing it.

Any clue what toys will work best for rewarded her? I'm thinking of using a number of them. A few I have and 1 more really special... but cheap one that is only produced for this purpose.


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## Maxy24 (Mar 5, 2011)

How does she know whether or not you have treats? Or does she follow the first command but after not receiving a treat for that she ignores all others? My concern is that with toys you'll just run into the same problem, if she doesn't see it then she won't listen. In the first case you should carry treats on you all of the time if you can so that she doesn't get all expectant when she noticed you grab treats and only use them as a REWARD that appears after the dog follows the command, never as a bribe. If it's the second then you should have some training sessions which specifically focus on doing multiple commands between treats. When you first train a command you reward for following every single one, regardless of what you reward with, so the dog learns to expect that, which is good because that's what gets them to perform. But later, when you can't get them the reward each time, they think something is wrong. Either they did something wrong or you're making a mistake, and they start to get super confused. So you need to introduce your dog to the idea that, just because she doesn't get a reward for every single command doesn't mean there is no reward coming if she continues to perform. You'd of course start with just asking for two command before a treat and SLOWLY build up to more and more. Make sure you don't consistently ask for a ton. Say you're up to the point where she can do seven command between treats, you wouldn't actually make her do seven commands before each treat, otherwise she'll be unenthusiastic and bored. You want her to think it could come at any time, but that she must stick with it and it'll come eventually. So give it after 1 command sometimes, 3, 2, 7, 4, 6, 2, 5, 3, 4, 2, 7 etc. Not the 7th each time, but UP TO 7. And when she's great there up the number you can go a little more. If she starts messing up go back down a little until she is successful again. I think this is a major failing of most positive obedience classes, they never teach people how to do this. They will teach proofing (adding distance, duration, and distractions to a command) but never teach the dog to be able to handle multiple commands without a reward. Once she's doing well in training sessions you can start using it in real life. She won't get rewarded for every single command she follows, but every 2nd or third (start easy at first, remember this is confusing for the dog and if it's too disappointing they'll give up. You can give the dog a reward after a single command sometimes, but not always). You can still use verbal rewards or petting just to give the dog an idea that he did do the right thing, but remember that the dog isn't actually going to work for that (well at least most dogs won't). At first you'll want to ask for the commands somewhat soon after each other. So ask for a sit, no treat. Go sit back on the sofa for like 5 minutes and then (as long as the dog isn't staring expectantly) get up and ask for another sit or a down, whichever is easier for now, and reward that one. And be goofy about your reward, don't just fork over a treat, be giggly and excited and pumped about it.


Now all that said, I think using a toy for rewards as well is a great idea, varying rewards keeps things exciting for the dog. Most people use tug, some people use a ball toss. I like tug better simply because it doesn't take as long. Just use whatever your dog likes. Mine likes skineeze toys and those luffa dog toys for tug. But fleece tugs are likely more durable, so if your dog likes them those might be better.


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## IslandPaws4Raw (Sep 7, 2011)

Any type of tug toy will work well with a high drive dog. If she doesn't like to tug now, you can introduce the idea through play at first. Get her really enjoying the game, then it's really important to teach her to release on command. Once she really enjoys tugging, you can build her drive for a specific tug toy. Once the value of the tug is really high, it would be easy to use a reward during training. Then you can switch out with the food rewards.
Maxy's advice about fading out the treats is great........I have a hard time with this one myself.

You can make your own tugs really cheap. If you now how to braid, you're good to go. Just get some scrap fleece cut into long strips and braid together and just knot at each end. 
Here is a really funny video from Susan Garret on how to build drive through bad "dog Training"
Building Drive by 'being' a Bad Dog Trainer - YouTube


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## werecatrising (Oct 15, 2010)

Dog training supplies - Dog toys & leashes for interactive, agility and motivational dog training.
This is one of my favorite toy sites. Quinn loves the buffalo tugs.


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## bridget246 (Oct 26, 2011)

Maxy24 said:


> How does she know whether or not you have treats? Or does she follow the first command but after not receiving a treat for that she ignores all others? My concern is that with toys you'll just run into the same problem, if she doesn't see it then she won't listen. In the first case you should carry treats on you all of the time if you can so that she doesn't get all expectant when she noticed you grab treats and only use them as a REWARD that appears after the dog follows the command, never as a bribe. If it's the second then you should have some training sessions which specifically focus on doing multiple commands between treats. When you first train a command you reward for following every single one, regardless of what you reward with, so the dog learns to expect that, which is good because that's what gets them to perform. But later, when you can't get them the reward each time, they think something is wrong. Either they did something wrong or you're making a mistake, and they start to get super confused. So you need to introduce your dog to the idea that, just because she doesn't get a reward for every single command doesn't mean there is no reward coming if she continues to perform. You'd of course start with just asking for two command before a treat and SLOWLY build up to more and more. Make sure you don't consistently ask for a ton. Say you're up to the point where she can do seven command between treats, you wouldn't actually make her do seven commands before each treat, otherwise she'll be unenthusiastic and bored. You want her to think it could come at any time, but that she must stick with it and it'll come eventually. So give it after 1 command sometimes, 3, 2, 7, 4, 6, 2, 5, 3, 4, 2, 7 etc. Not the 7th each time, but UP TO 7. And when she's great there up the number you can go a little more. If she starts messing up go back down a little until she is successful again. I think this is a major failing of most positive obedience classes, they never teach people how to do this. They will teach proofing (adding distance, duration, and distractions to a command) but never teach the dog to be able to handle multiple commands without a reward. Once she's doing well in training sessions you can start using it in real life. She won't get rewarded for every single command she follows, but every 2nd or third (start easy at first, remember this is confusing for the dog and if it's too disappointing they'll give up. You can give the dog a reward after a single command sometimes, but not always). You can still use verbal rewards or petting just to give the dog an idea that he did do the right thing, but remember that the dog isn't actually going to work for that (well at least most dogs won't). At first you'll want to ask for the commands somewhat soon after each other. So ask for a sit, no treat. Go sit back on the sofa for like 5 minutes and then (as long as the dog isn't staring expectantly) get up and ask for another sit or a down, whichever is easier for now, and reward that one. And be goofy about your reward, don't just fork over a treat, be giggly and excited and pumped about it.
> 
> 
> Now all that said, I think using a toy for rewards as well is a great idea, varying rewards keeps things exciting for the dog. Most people use tug, some people use a ball toss. I like tug better simply because it doesn't take as long. Just use whatever your dog likes. Mine likes skineeze toys and those luffa dog toys for tug. But fleece tugs are likely more durable, so if your dog likes them those might be better.


Bridget is a hard one for me to figure out. It is just my guess but I'm not 100% sure she is to treats. Yes, they excite her but I'm not sure if they are her favorite. They don't get that huge shake of the tail. 

How does she know I have a treat? She smells it. Doesn't matter if she can't see it. She can still smell it. Part of our training I hide things around the house and have her find them. I started out with treats and now I've moved on to balls. The ball isn't always in the open. It could be in a box and she still has to find it. But she won't find that ball unless she knows I have a treat to give her afterwards. 

If she smells the treat on me she will do a long series of commands. Touch, sit, down, roll over, stay, jump, bark, catch ball, fetch, beg or any of the other commands I've taught her without being rewarded every time or every other time. No treat on me, then she will cherry pick what she wants to do. I want her to catch the ball. No treats, she will watch it fly past her, or thump her lightly on the head without making any effort. With treats? I could throw a ball away from her and she still gets it most of the time. 

I tried a short tugs but she isn't 100% interested. She will look at the tug. Bite on it every now and then. But if I'm not pulling back with force, tug isn't fun. Unless I used one of the larger ropes and balls that I can't easily carry around with me. 

Stand was very hard to teach with treats. But very easy to teach with praise. Which is strange. Stand stay was even easier with no treats. Unless I was doing the conformation stand in which treats is the only way I shown to teach it.

Last note. I always use verbal and physical praises for feedback. I don't have any treats I want to give her right now but I want to keep playing the games we enjoy. My favorite ones are apparently not her favorite. Today I attempted to use the laser pen as an reward for sit and down stay. It is working really well for those exercises. Break stay, no more light. Watch me and wait for my command and the light stays for Bridget to chase around. 

On the video IslandPaws4Raw linked. I would like to see how that trainer taught those commands. I would have to use leave it and yes to get the same affect. Not really sure if that is 100% the same but it seems like it.

Update: I think I might get a bison tail from them.


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## IslandPaws4Raw (Sep 7, 2011)

I was also looking for this video when I posted earlier....but couldn't find it for some reason. This is a video by Kikopup. She emphasizes reinforcing calm behavior rather than letting a dog get too amped up, but she goes through step by step on how to train the "take it" and "drop it" when tugging

Dog Training Tip of the Day- Tugging with your dog - YouTube


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## Celt (Dec 27, 2010)

Why use a "treat" at all. I'd never "treat" trained before I got the boys and I really regret using this method. It seemed to take longer to train them and "after" training I had to train them to listen whether a "treat" was available or not. It seems that she enjoys being "praised" and having your attention why not train her to respond to that instead of "treats". 
Before the boys, I only treat trained "special" commands like find it, spin, etc. Not for "good manner" commands, I figured these were not fun and games so didn't deserve an "extra" for doing them. More than likely I won't be using treat training ever again (won't say never, who knows what the future will bring)


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## bridget246 (Oct 26, 2011)

Celt said:


> Why use a "treat" at all. I'd never "treat" trained before I got the boys and I really regret using this method. It seemed to take longer to train them and "after" training I had to train them to listen whether a "treat" was available or not. It seems that she enjoys being "praised" and having your attention why not train her to respond to that instead of "treats".
> Before the boys, I only treat trained "special" commands like find it, spin, etc. Not for "good manner" commands, I figured these were not fun and games so didn't deserve an "extra" for doing them. More than likely I won't be using treat training ever again (won't say never, who knows what the future will bring)


That is my problem. Sit and down need to have the possibility of a reward or it's ignored. I was praised and praised in obedience for my timing with the treats and attention. But I just not 100% happy with it. If she ignores me when I don't have a treat am I really teaching the dog obedience? I don't think so. But again, it is only a few commands that she chooses to ignore. I heard treat training is great when teaching something new. But if it is a difficult trick to teach then it is even harder for me with treats. Bridget will spend more time focusing on the treat than what I'm trying to show her. If by accident she gets it right I will reward it. Then we start again. After awhile she learns what gets her the treat and does it on command when I have treats. But does she actually understand the command? I'm not sure. She will do it at most once and get frustrated if I don't have any treats. 

I'll stick with treats for shows and meets but might remove them for other purposes. I would have never guessed that it would be harder to train certain commands. Stand for exam was my hardest and she learned it easy by petting. 

At game night in one of my classes I got to see some of the upper level dogs. Those dogs had a little trouble with recalls, and downs. A few dogs just plain ignored their owners down commands altogether. At first I felt better for having trouble. But then I started thinking. Is this the road I'm headed on? Will that be me 2 years down the line with my dog ignoring me? I don't want it to be. 

It was almost as if the dogs were trying to us that nothing in life is free. I have a lot more commands to teach. Some may actually be easier with treats. Others, maybe not. But I will be using a good tug, treats, praise, petting, and anything else I come across that might be rewarding. So what do you guys use? This is assuming that you trick train beyond the basics.


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## Maxy24 (Mar 5, 2011)

> Why use a "treat" at all. I'd never "treat" trained before I got the boys and I really regret using this method. It seemed to take longer to train them and "after" training I had to train them to listen whether a "treat" was available or not. It seems that she enjoys being "praised" and having your attention why not train her to respond to that instead of "treats".
> Before the boys, I only treat trained "special" commands like find it, spin, etc. Not for "good manner" commands, I figured these were not fun and games so didn't deserve an "extra" for doing them. More than likely I won't be using treat training ever again (won't say never, who knows what the future will bring)


Most owners use treats because dogs will work for them. Very few dogs will work for praise in anything but zero distraction environments UNLESS punishment is also used (or perhaps molding, which may or may not be seen as punishment by the dog...this would be if the dog breaks a sit you push him back into it, he learns he has no choice, you're going to force him to stay sitting). And then they aren't really working for praise, they're working to avoid a punishment. Not always the case of course, I'm sure some dogs would find praise/petting as motivational as most dogs find treats, but I'd bet not many.




> If she smells the treat on me she will do a long series of commands. Touch, sit, down, roll over, stay, jump, bark, catch ball, fetch, beg or any of the other commands I've taught her without being rewarded every time or every other time. No treat on me, then she will cherry pick what she wants to do. I want her to catch the ball. No treats, she will watch it fly past her, or thump her lightly on the head without making any effort. With treats? I could throw a ball away from her and she still gets it most of the time.


Would this apply even if you had had the treats in your pocket for several hours? Just curious if you'd ever tried it. For Tucker I always carry a couple of treats so he stops thinking about them. I also have treats in containers in both the living room and kitchen so that I can ask for a command to be followed, mark it as correct with my voice, then go over to the container and get the treat to reward with.



> Bridget will spend more time focusing on the treat than what I'm trying to show her.


Show her how? Do you mainly lure? Have you considered clicker training? it might make her a more active participant in the training.

What I'm a bit confused on, are you having trouble teaching the commands or getting her to follow them after she already knows them? Are you sure she actually knows them by their verbal commands? I know a lot of dogs who, especially with sit and down, don't really knows know the verbal commands well. The behaviors are often taught together at the same time and the dogs often seem to do really well with hand signals so the owners assume the dogs know it before they do. Then the dog often does the opposite (I have this problem with my own dog), he doesn't really know which is which, but guesses and gets it right sometimes. To fix it I'd have to go back and spend a whole session on each, then do "puppy push ups" alternating between the two.

A lot of people also make the mistake of letting the dog mess up too much. Like in the sit and down example if I asked for 10 sits and he only sat 6 times and I rewarded them all, that would be bad. After he messed up two or three times I should realize he's hasn't a clue what he's doing and stop to retrain it. By rewarding the correct guesses among many wrong ones I'm simply rewarding him for guessing repeatedly. He knows he'll get it right eventually, but that means a lot of wrong responses. So when your dog is doing something wrong you need to make sure you're not accidentally rewarding the wrong behavior, or the laziness, or the occasional obedience by rewarding intermittent compliance . You need to take a step back in training and make it so the dog stops failing, and then you can start rewarding. How you go about getting the dog back on track is the hard part of course, how you do it depends on the specific behavior, dog, and issue.



> She will look at the tug. Bite on it every now and then. But if I'm not pulling back with force, tug isn't fun.


Why not pull back with force then? Tug is only as fun as you make it!

I think it's great you are finding multiple ways to reward your dog, the laser light is great idea. 


Also want to mention, keep training sessions short, really short, really active (if your dog likes that), really fun -when you are going over known commands.




> On the video IslandPaws4Raw linked. I would like to see how that trainer taught those commands. I would have to use leave it and yes to get the same affect. Not really sure if that is 100% the same but it seems like it.


That trainer is Susan Garrett, a well known dog trainer in the agility world. She's awesome. I love watching her work with her dogs, they are the most enthusiastic workers I've ever seen. Here is her website: Say Yes Dog Training
She also has a facebook page: Susan Garrett Dog Agility Training | Facebook


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## Liz (Sep 27, 2010)

*Training*

We train obedience commands with praise and affection. Tricks and agility we train with treats because for me the obedience commands are not optional, treat or no treat they need to obey, tricks and such are more optional those are just for fun.


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## Maxy24 (Mar 5, 2011)

> We train obedience commands with praise and affection. Tricks and agility we train with treats because for me the obedience commands are not optional, treat or no treat they need to obey, tricks and such are more optional those are just for fun.


To me training with affection would be for more optional commands because it would create a weaker behavior in my dog. Not to pick on you, but I hear that from other people sometimes, that they HAVE to obey obedience commands so I don't use treats for them. My assumption is you use punishment (like collar corrections) then....is that true?


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## Liz (Sep 27, 2010)

Repetition is my first choice with a behavior they choose to disobey. Recalls are practiced until perfected. Praise is withheld until the behavior is accomplished properly - when done correctly play and affection is given in abundance. If all else fails - yes I will give leash corrections with critical behaviors such as a come command or wait at the door. If their life is involved I am not to worried about hurt feelings from a collar correction. Thankfully having "easy" dogs they really don't get much to the correcting stage as they want to be with their people and do like to please.


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