# Grain Free or no and why?



## tamfitness (Aug 28, 2011)

Right now I'm doing TOTW but the stoole is huge..I'm cutting back like some suggested lets see if that works

Meanwhile if I switch ....I was thinking Kirklands brand?

Why is it good to have them on Grain Free if they have no food allergy issues?

Thanks for any input on this.

If TOTW does not work what other food should I try?

Thanks


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## Jacksons Mom (Jun 13, 2010)

I'm becoming iffy on this. I used to think grain-free was the way to go with kibble and I still don't believe dogs_ need_ grains but I also don't think peas and potatoes are a whole lot better than oatmeal and rice.

I guess it's just what you are comfortable with. I still prefer most grain-free formulas than not but I am not sure it's as important or hyped up as it's made to be.


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## 1605 (May 27, 2009)

tamfitness said:


> Right now I'm doing TOTW but the stoole is huge..I'm cutting back like some suggested lets see if that works
> 
> Meanwhile if I switch ....I was thinking Kirklands brand?
> 
> ...




We switched to grain free for the higher protein content. They also tend to be higher in calories, which is good for extremely active dogs like our GSP. (Also translates to feeding LESS of that particular food.)

As for which one to try, there are multiple threads already here on the Board... just do a search.

Bonne chance,


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## Unosmom (May 3, 2009)

I dont necessarily think that potatoes are any better then grains, but thats not why I feed the food, most grain inclusive kibble is 23-26% protein vs 30% and up in grain free. I feed it because of higher meat content. But its really a personal choice, some dogs do better on grain inclusive and vice versa. I noticed a difference when I switched to grain free, more muscle tone, shinier and healhier coat, no ear infections, lots of energy.


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## Porphyria (Jul 13, 2011)

I don't think grains are a problem as long as they are quality grains. I completely agree with what has been said about white potatoes being no better than good grains. I do understand the argument for grain free based on its higher meat content. But not all dogs tolerate high protein kibble well; my dog had problems on really high protein grain free. I currently feed grain inclusive foods, but I also supplement with canned food and raw eggs for added meat content. But some dogs do very well on a high protein grain free diet, it really comes down to what your dog does best on. There are a lot of different factors to look at when choosing a food, and grain vs. no grain is just one of them.


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## Lisa_j (Apr 7, 2011)

Porphyria said:


> I don't think grains are a problem as long as they are quality grains. I completely agree with what has been said about white potatoes being no better than good grains. I do understand the argument for grain free based on its higher meat content. But not all dogs tolerate high protein kibble well; my dog had problems on really high protein grain free. I currently feed grain inclusive foods, but I also supplement with canned food and raw eggs for added meat content. But some dogs do very well on a high protein grain free diet, it really comes down to what your dog does best on. There are a lot of different factors to look at when choosing a food, and grain vs. no grain is just one of them.


I agree, when I fed kibble my danes both lost a ton of weight on grain free kibble.


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## RCTRIPLEFRESH5 (Feb 11, 2010)

Jacksons Mom said:


> I'm becoming iffy on this. I used to think grain-free was the way to go with kibble and I still don't believe dogs_ need_ grains but I also don't think peas and potatoes are a whole lot better than oatmeal and rice.
> 
> I guess it's just what you are comfortable with. I still prefer most grain-free formulas than not but I am not sure it's as important or hyped up as it's made to be.


what about tapioca?


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## Caty M (Aug 13, 2010)

NO starch is natural for a dog. The most important thing would be meat content, and the best starch is that which is low on the GI scale- I think sweet potatoes are good, white/russet not as much so.


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## PDXdogmom (Jun 30, 2010)

Tapioca provides another alternative for the binding carb in grain-free food. It's primarily a non-gluten starch with next to no protein. So when you look at a formula containing tapioca, you know that the protein is pretty much coming from the listed meat sources. Some dogs don't do well with potatoes; and I've never heard of any intolerance problems with tapioca.


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## KittyKat (Feb 11, 2011)

The idea of grain free is that they are trying to add in as much animal protein as possible. Dogs are carnivores so no grain/starch is appropriate but they are needed to bind kibble together. Basically it's just finding what enables the most amount of meat, and least amount of everything else.


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## kevin bradley (Aug 9, 2009)

I'm less into grain free because I think grains are horrible for Dogs. 

Moreso, I think grain free foods are just better, with more meat and protein. Thats why I feed grain free. I'm lost on whether or not grains/carbs are awful for Dogs. I've read both arguments and cannot come to an absolute conclusion.


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## CorgiPaws (Mar 31, 2009)

I questioned this for a long time, and honestly I don't think that a food being grain free in and of itself makes it superior. 

Grains are common allergens, so of course for any dog experiencing allergies grain free formulas will be strong contenders in what to try next. But, aside from that.... I have a couple qualms with the whole grain free bandwagon. 
I won't deny that it is pretty obvious that Orijen and Evo have higher meat content than any other food that comes to mind BUT... there are several grain inclusive foods in which the first few ingredients are meat. Canidae ALS comes to mind. On the other hand, there are plenty of grain free foods with only one meat ingredient listed followed by a million different kinds of potato. In that respect, I think a few grain inclusive foods ARE better than some grain free. 

Also, on the protein issue. A natural whole foods diet for a carnivore is going to be somewhere between 18-28% protein. For that reason, I don't think that unnaturally high protein content should be a deciding factor in WHY to go with grain free. Sure, there's a strong chance that most of that protein comes from meat sources but you simply can NOT guarantee. 

I sell a lot of dog food, several thousand dollars a month of it. I am on a first name basis with a lot of my customers, and actually take the time to TALK to them when they come in. 
Taste of the Wild seems to sit well with more dogs than Canidae Grain Free. 
EVO is entirely hit or miss. They either do really well, or it's a train wreck. It doesn't sell fast. 
Wellness flies off the shelves and people seem happy with it. 
Canidae ALS is a big hit, i think it's more of a bang for the buck type thing though because for some reason even when people's dogs could be doing better- they keep buying it. 
California Natural Herring.... easily our highest rated food from the people who buy it. I can not even begin to tell you how many people walk in the door with so many allergy and diarrhea issues that this food has helped. They also look excellent on it. On paper it's not my favorite, but I can't deny the results I've seen people get with it. 

I just don't find potato and peas any better than rice. And really, by the time it makes it to the food bowl, it's all so processed to the point of hardly even resembling the ingredients claimed on the bag- I'm not so sure it matters WHAT the starch supply is. In reality, you have NO idea how much meat is in your kibble. You have NO idea what percent of the total food each ingredient makes up. You have NO idea how much of that "chicken meal" is actually chicken. There are far too many unknown variables in processed commercial foods for me to put much worry into a rice vs. potato debate. They're both bad. They're both inappropriate. They're both fillers.


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## Caty M (Aug 13, 2010)

> A natural whole foods diet for a carnivore is going to be somewhere between 18-28% protein. For that reason, I don't think that unnaturally high protein content should be a deciding factor in WHY to go with grain free.


Raw is water inclusive, though. If it were dehydrated like kibble it would be over 50% protein. If you add water to kibble to make it similar to raw (70%? water) then it's going to have lower protein than raw. Thats why I think that the higher the protein (meat based!!) is better in kibble.

Water SHOULD be added to kibble.


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## CorgiPaws (Mar 31, 2009)

Caty M said:


> Raw is water inclusive, though. If it were dehydrated like kibble it would be over 50% protein. If you add water to kibble to make it similar to raw (70%? water) then it's going to have lower protein than raw. Thats why I think that the higher the protein (meat based!!) is better in kibble.
> 
> Water SHOULD be added to kibble.


True, but how many people actually do that? Not many. 
And even so, there's no guarantee or clue as to what comes from meat and what is vegetable protein. 
SO many dang unknowns.


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## meggels (May 30, 2010)

I really agree with Linsey's post. 


I tend to go with grain free's because of the slightly higher meat content (but I don't really like to go over 32% protein) and I've just noticed that my dogs poops are almost always smaller on grain free's. 

Abbie is on Natural Balance's chicken/lamb/rabbit Alpha formula and is doing okay on it. Not great, but okay. She was pooping way too much on their Synergy formula, which isn't grain free.

Oddly though, she did WONDERFULLY on Whole Earth Farms adult formula. Great poops. Shiny coat.

I have a coupon for a free 30lb bag of Pinnacle from a territory manager for Pinnacle I met this weekend.

After that it's back to NB, not sure what formula. None of them really are perfect to me....


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## Caty M (Aug 13, 2010)

You can usually tell by the ingredient list though if the majority of the protein comes from animal or plant based ingredients. If you compare Orijen to Ol'Roy (Just using those two to show an extreme difference).

Orijen:
Fresh boneless chicken*, chicken meal, fresh boneless salmon*, turkey meal, herring meal, russet potato, peas, sweet potato, fresh boneless turkey*, fresh whole eggs*, fresh chicken liver*, fresh boneless lake whitefish*, fresh boneless walleye*, sun-cured alfalfa, pea fiber, chicken fat (preserved with mixed tocopherols), organic kelp, pumpkin, chicory root, carrots, spinach, turnip greens, apples, cranberries, blueberries, licorice root, angelica root, fenugreek, marigold flowers, sweet fennel, peppermint leaf, chamomile, dandelion, summer savory, rosemary, vitamin A, vitamin D3, vitamin E, niacin, thiamine mononitrate, riboflavin, d-calcium pantothenate, pyridoxine, folic acid, biotin, vitamin B12, zinc proteinate, iron proteinate, manganese proteinate, copper proteinate, selenium yeast, Lactobacillus acidophilus, Enterococcus faecium.

Ol'Roy:
Ground Yellow Corn, Meat and Bone Meal, Soybean Meal, Chicken By-Product Meal, Wheat Middlings, Animal Fat (Preserved With Bha and Citric Acid), Natural Flavor, Brewers Rice, Salt, Calcium Carbonate, Potassium Chloride, Choline Chloride, Color Added (Titanium Dioxide, Yellow #5, Yellow #6, Red #40, Blue #2), Zinc Sulfate, Vitamin E Supplement, Ferrous Sulfate, Zinc Oxide, Niacin, Copper Sulfate, Vitamin A Supplement, Biotin, Manganous Oxide, Calcium Pantothenate, Vitamin B12 Supplement, Thiamine Mononitrate, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride, Menadione Sodium Bisulfite Complex (Source of Vitamin K Activity), Riboflavin Supplement, Sodium Selenite, Calcium Iodate, Folic Acid, Vitamin D-3 Supplement, Cobalt Carbonate.

The only real high protein plant ingredient in Orijen is peas, and it's pretty far down the list.

In Ol'Roy corn is not especially high in protein (about 10% on dry matter basis from what I've read, I could be wrong). Meat and bone meal is an animal source. Soybean meal is over 50% protein- I bet that's where the majority of the protein is from, soybeans and unknown animals. These are the second and third ingredients.

Even if the water is not added to the kibble, the animal will usually make up most of that in drinking later. As digestion occurs everything is kind of a slurry- it's not digested dry (obviously). I feel the only way you can compare the nutrients between raw and kibble is on a dry matter basis.


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## kevin bradley (Aug 9, 2009)

I need someone to explain to me what a "wheat middling" is? Please? 

Its funny to see Orijen on the same screen with Old Roy. Just funny.


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## Caty M (Aug 13, 2010)

As per Wikipedia:

Wheat middlings or wheat mill run, stated by AAFCO, is coarse and fine particles of wheat bran and fine particles of wheat shorts, wheat germ, wheat flour and offal from the "tail of the mill".
Wheat middlings is an inexpensive byproduct intermediate of human food processing, commonly referred to as floor sweepings (although such products are generally captured long before they would end up on the floor). It is an inexpensive filler in pet food and a basis for manufacturing semolina. It has 96 percent of the energy value of barley and 91 percent of the energy value of corn.[1]
Due to its high energy content and low price, wheat middlings is being researched as a biofuel.[2]. A burner designed to make good use of it is the USDA-OARDC AFBC, a small scale Atmospheric Fluidized Bed Combustor.[3]; this technology originated in the 1920s in the chemical industry and was adopted by the power sector in the 1980s. Dr. Harold Keener has led the research on the OARDC-AFBC for the past twenty years, though the project lost some funding after the resolution of the energy crisis associated with the 1990 oil price shock.[4]


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## PDXdogmom (Jun 30, 2010)

I strongly agree with most of Linsey's post #12. Her observations on the the specific brands and formulas especially seem accurate from my experience.

People searching for which kibble to try really shouldn't be primarily focused on the grain-inclusive versus grain-free issue. If your dog doesn't do well with a particular ingredient, be it chicken or potato or barley, simply look for formulas without it. There are some good and bad examples among both grain-inclusive and grain-free.

Look at the whole picture: protein/fat percentages, ingredient list, any special health issues your dog has, cost, company profile, and availability.
Then make a reasonable choice and feed it for a few months. Then assess how well your dog is doing.
And since it is very challenging to know the meat protein content, add some fresh meat/egg protein to the kibble for a little added insurance.


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## tamfitness (Aug 28, 2011)

Hmm

Ok 

Well I have my sr dog who has bad allergies this time a year...would not touch her TOTW the last 2 days. This morning she did finally. 
My other two are doing better on it since I cut back the amount I ffed.

Here is my concern with TOTW: lots of potato could this be what is making my golden have a problem. Not sure I know she always gets allergies but she has been on the food about a month.....She at first seemed to love it at it with no problem...now not so much?

This is why I'm not sure if I should switch or not...and if so to what. 

She did eat this am plus giving her benedryl...per vet before to see if that works before we have to do pred.

Right now they are on TOTW LAmb my vet wanted me to go with a lower protein not something that has 32%. My vet also only gives names like Iams, Eukenba and so on to feed. Not sure he does not believe in all the hype and those foods have been around forever.

I'm really stuck. What would you do and why?

Thanks everyone


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## monkeys23 (Dec 8, 2010)

I've tried TOTW several times with my cat... I've never been totally happy with the results...

My dogs had horrible digestive upset with anything grain related, even rice. Evo worked fantastic and after the P&G buyout (I did notice changes in how they did on the food, who knows if its related or not, but to suddenly be gassy and blowing coat when nothing else changed was really off and weird) went to Acana grain free. They liked Grasslands best, but it made Lily's poo overly hard. And after being on a rotation of the flavors for six months Lily's coat started getting greasy and she lost some muscle mass. 

After a vet trip for constipation for Lily, I bought a box of The Honest Kitchen Force. Even with adding RMB's, meat, etc. she was still dropping muscle (though her poo issue was fixed!) and gaining fat. I finally woke the hell up one day and said to myself, wtf am I doing? She would not graze on alfalfa in the field.... she'd catch and eat a mouse! So I finally quit making excuses and went to PMR. The detox she went through during transition was disgusting, I don't know what the hell is in commercial pet foods, but whatever it is isn't good for them. She's not only gained her muscle back, she's got more than ever. And her coat is better than ever too.

I did half raw, half Acana (and later a small bag of TOTW SM) with Scout for a while. I told myself for cost reasons, but it actually cost more than full PMR does. 
And all it did was upset her tummy to keep her partially on kibble. I don't know if it was specifically the TOTW, but the half n' half went fine with Acana Grasslands and then spiraled quickly downhill when I got some TOTW SM.


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## PDXdogmom (Jun 30, 2010)

How about trying a kibble that isn't high in either potato or rice; also a more simple formula.

Take a look at:
California Natural Herring. The only potato is sweet potato which falls #7 on the ingredient list Healthy Pet Product Search ? Organic Dog Food, Dog Treats and More ? Natura Pet Products

Also look at one that's working very well for both my dogs (especially my senior golden with a number of food intolerances): Canine Caviar Chicken and Pearl Millet. Chicken And Pearl Millet Adult

Five years ago after repeated hot spots and bouts of yeasty ears my vet (no longer my vet) was suggesting to put our golden on prednisone long-term. Having seen what continued usage does to humans, I was determined to look at alternative - mainly different food choice.


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## wags (Jan 31, 2009)

I am liking right now Orijen the adult regular formula one, best food ever . ( well all the Orijen foods are great!)I like that its grain free and the meat content is the best, and the high protein it contains, my dogs go very well on it. Also I get Wellness Core. Right now I have the Ocean one. I have used all the Wellness Cores and have been extremely happy with these also.


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## kevin bradley (Aug 9, 2009)

I agree with Wags. I have to say that...

Orijen
EVO
Wellness
(I'd probably add Honest Kitchen)...

the most elite foods available in the dry aisle. There may be more but these are tops on my list.


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## Javadoo (May 23, 2011)

I switched to grain free because grains *can* cause inflammation in joints. Java had bilateral ACL surgeries, so wanted to eliminate that variable. 
I switched both girls to TOTW to start and the results were startling. Lean, muscular, shiny coats, clear eyes, clean ears....they did lose weight and leaned right up (which is a good thing for labs). 
I now rotate 4-5 different grain free foods (TOTW, Fromm, NV & Go!) and couldn't be happier with the results for my girls.


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## tamfitness (Aug 28, 2011)

Thanks for all the input...still trying to decide what to do.

My golden is the one I have issues with...but vet says it is allergies....this time of year.

Doing TOTW right now but still not sure that is the right choice for all three dogs?


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## RCTRIPLEFRESH5 (Feb 11, 2010)

how come they can't make high meat content foods using brown rice as the binder?


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## RCTRIPLEFRESH5 (Feb 11, 2010)

totw is leaps and bounds better than most foods. i wouldn't feel bad about feeding it. winston hated it though..he loves evo red meat though 
stupid dog 


tamfitness said:


> Thanks for all the input...still trying to decide what to do.
> 
> My golden is the one I have issues with...but vet says it is allergies....this time of year.
> 
> Doing TOTW right now but still not sure that is the right choice for all three dogs?


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## RCTRIPLEFRESH5 (Feb 11, 2010)

kevin bradley said:


> I agree with Wags. I have to say that...
> 
> Orijen
> EVO
> ...


orijen and evo are elite foods ..yes
but why hoenst kitchen? it is vegatable soup...used as a com suppliment to meat..so it's useless.
wellness is ok core is a good food i dont see how it's any better than totw.
go endurance and earthborn are good foods...although ive gotten bad results in 2/2 dogs from the earthborn

evo red has been a huge hit with 2/2.....the palitability on it is crazy
are dog on red meat diets prone to heart issues lie human


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## CorgiPaws (Mar 31, 2009)

RCTRIPLEFRESH5 said:


> orijen and evo are elite foods ..yes
> but why hoenst kitchen? it is vegatable soup...used as a com suppliment to meat..so it's useless.
> wellness is ok core is a good food i dont see how it's any better than totw.
> go endurance and earthborn are good foods...although ive gotten bad results in 2/2 dogs from the earthborn
> ...


Only one of the Honest Kitchen formulas is a veggie/fruit blend, the others are actually meat inclusive and designed to be a whole diet. I'm not personally in love with the food, because the texture to me is just all wrong, but I'm also used to feeding whole foods to my pets, so that's probably why it seems so weird to me. 

No, red meat is not going to cause heart problems for dogs.


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## PDXdogmom (Jun 30, 2010)

RCTRIPLEFRESH5 said:


> how come they can't make high meat content foods using brown rice as the binder?


The dog food companies most certainly could manufacture a high meat protein kibble using a grain like brown rice or millet (both better in my book than white potato).

However, that's not where the money is. The big marketing strategy for the $ is the "grain-free" concept. It's so easy to tout: "grain-free and high protein" on a bag and in print. It's much less easy to explain that a food may be great because it has high protein and a "really good grain". It would take a lot of education for some of the public to distinguish between brewer's rice oand corn versus brown rice, quinoa or millet.


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## Slayer Girl (Sep 8, 2011)

I can honestly say Grain free seems a safer choice. I know my breed of choice is plagued by skin allergy issues and grains in food are a HUGE trigger.


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## Caty M (Aug 13, 2010)

Slayer- does your particular dog have allergies? I've noticed that as well... pits having skin problems. The neighbor's has had a few skin cancers removed and she is allergic to a few things. Potato being one of them so most grain free foods are out.

Most all grain free foods are higher in meat content than grain ones- Canidae ALS is pretty good as well as a few others- but for the most part, grain free is the way to go. 

There are some lower quality foods jumping on the bandwagon- Nutro for example. Venison and potato formula-

Venison Meal, Dried Potatoes, Potato Starch, Potato Protein, Pea Protein, Sunflower Oil (preserved with mixed Tocopherols), Chicken Fat (preserved with mixed Tocopherols), Dried Plain Beet Pulp, Natural Flavors, Flaxseed, Potassium Chloride, Salt, Powdered Cellulose, Choline Chloride, Zinc Sulfate, Taurine, Vitamin E Supplement, Ferrous Sulfate, L-Ascorbyl-2-Polyphosphate (source of Vitamin C), Potassium Iodide, Copper Sulfate, L-Carnitine, Niacin Supplement, Calcium Pantothenate, Biotin, Manganous Oxide, Thiamine Mononitrate (Vitamin B1), Selenium, Vitamin A Supplement, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride (Vitamin B6), Riboflavin Supplement (Vitamin B2), Vitamin D3 Supplement, Vitamin B12 Supplement, Folic Acid, Rosemary Extract.

So as always... reading the label is the way to go. :wink:


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## Slayer Girl (Sep 8, 2011)

My dog has minor allergies..mostly in the form of gross runny poo. I have her on TOTW pacific stream. She loves it.


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## kady05 (Jul 29, 2011)

I've actually never fed my dogs a food with grains, except when I first got Wilson and he ate Chicken Soup for 6 months. Right now I feed Orijen to Wilson, NV Instinct to Sako, and Piper is now on raw. All of them do great on their respective foods.


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## PDXdogmom (Jun 30, 2010)

Caty M said:


> Slayer- does your particular dog have allergies? I've noticed that as well... pits having skin problems. The neighbor's has had a few skin cancers removed and she is allergic to a few things. Potato being one of them so most grain free foods are out.
> 
> Most all grain free foods are higher in meat content than grain ones- Canidae ALS is pretty good as well as a few others- but for the most part, grain free is the way to go.
> 
> ...


Wow - the ingredient list for Nutro Venison and Potato formula is eye-opening. Once you add the dried potatoes, potato starch, potato protein and pea protein all together; I'm sure they are a much higher percentage than the venison meal.

I no longer think "grain-free" is the automatic default way to go - unless a dog has an allergy/intolerance to all grains. I've seen some better grain-inclusive formulas. than some of the poorly formulated grain free foods, that make a great base formula. Simply add some extra fresh protein on top and you have a healthier overall meal without paying the higher price of some of the grain-frees.


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## InkedMarie (Sep 9, 2011)

My Boone is 5yrs old, he started with yeast ear infections and paw licking at age 16 weeks. California Natural herring was the food that finally worked for him. 
Back then, I don't think TOTW was even around. I was recommended to find a food with no chicken, corn, wheat, soy, rice or flax. There was the Cal Nat, Solid
Gold Holistique Blendz and Timberwolf Ocean Blue. I couldn't find Timberwolf, I didn't care for the ingredients in the SG so we went with Cal Nat. I wanted to 
change his food because I wanted to find other foods he could eat. Since then, he has done fine on Orijen adult and fish (the adult is chicken but he does fine), 
one of the Acana's, TOTW fish and The Honest Kitchen's Embark. Right now, he is on the new turkey Nature's Variety LID diet and their raw venison. 
To the OP: I have a brittany who has no issues so I thought I'd "cheapen out" a bit and get her THK's Keen and NV's Prairie. She may not need grain free but
after she's done with the Prairie, that what she'll be on. Oh man, the poops! It may not be the grain, it may be the NV but I'm not going to try all kinds of foods
to see what doesn't give her lotsa poop so she'll probably go on what Boone is one, that way I can buy one bag of food for two dogs!


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## truthdog (Sep 10, 2011)

PuppyPaws said:


> I questioned this for a long time, and honestly I don't think that a food being grain free in and of itself makes it superior.
> 
> Grains are common allergens, so of course for any dog experiencing allergies grain free formulas will be strong contenders in what to try next. But, aside from that.... I have a couple qualms with the whole grain free bandwagon.
> I won't deny that it is pretty obvious that Orijen and Evo have higher meat content than any other food that comes to mind BUT... there are several grain inclusive foods in which the first few ingredients are meat. Canidae ALS comes to mind. On the other hand, there are plenty of grain free foods with only one meat ingredient listed followed by a million different kinds of potato. In that respect, I think a few grain inclusive foods ARE better than some grain free.
> ...


Where is the data that says grains cause allergies. You are in fact dead wrong. Over 80% of allergies are caused by meat sources, eggs & dairy. Let me ask you something, you mentioned Canidae ALS because it has multiple meat sources but is just 24% protein. Is that better than a food with one meat source but is 32% protein?

I would really like to know where you come up with the idea grains cause allergies.


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## CorgiPaws (Mar 31, 2009)

truthdog said:


> Where is the data that says grains cause allergies. You are in fact dead wrong. Over 80% of allergies are caused by meat sources, eggs & dairy. Let me ask you something, you mentioned Canidae ALS because it has multiple meat sources but is just 24% protein. Is that better than a food with one meat source but is 32% protein?
> 
> I would really like to know where you come up with the idea grains cause allergies.


Uh... welcome to DFC? 

I have no study to pull put for you. I'm on the road. But, I know of MANY dogs and cats first hand that have made complete turn around on grain free. I myself have a cat that turns into an itchy, dandruff mess if she has grains. 

I am not on the grainfree bandwagon. I thought I made that clear. And I mention Canidae's multiple proteins as a pro because a lot of people fail to rotate their dogs foods. I can not tell you if it has more or less meat than a one meat, higher protein food and neither can you because there is no way of knowing. Even so, i'd say that slightly less meat content with more variety would be better. Of course that would be better achieved by a rotation but people are dumb. 

I'm not an advocate for ANY kibble. It's ALL a complete money driven industry with all unknowns and no guarantees. I was simply sharing a few observations from working on a professional level with hundreds of dog owners. 

Introduce yourself, you might have more people take you seriously when you spout off if you tell us a little about yourself. Then again, probably not. 

Happy Posting!

By the way, cases of allergies to meats in their RAW form are very rare. The stuff in kibble hardly qualifies as meat.


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## truthdog (Sep 10, 2011)

RCTRIPLEFRESH5 said:


> how come they can't make high meat content foods using brown rice as the binder?


There are tons of these: Annamaet Ultra, Dr. Tims Pursuit/Momentum, Precise Endurance, Native Level 3/4, many more.

And its not a binder it is used because it is good for the animal.

The first 3 are the best foods on the market.


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## truthdog (Sep 10, 2011)

PuppyPaws said:


> Uh... welcome to DFC?
> 
> I have no study to pull put for you. I'm on the road. But, I know of MANY dogs and cats first hand that have made complete turn around on grain free. I myself have a cat that turns into an itchy, dandruff mess if she has grains.
> 
> ...


It is better to use fewer protein sources than introduce many to a dog. If, even if the odds are low, that the dog develops an allergy, you have an easier time finding an option. There is no reason to have multiple sources if the source has a complete amino acid profile. So chicken and herring or menhaden is best.


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## jdatwood (Apr 13, 2009)

truthdog said:


> And its not a binder it is used because it is good for the animal.


How is brown rice "good" for a carnivore??


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## truthdog (Sep 10, 2011)

jdatwood said:


> How is brown rice "good" for a carnivore??


Whole grains like brown rice and corn have a variety of nutrients that are essential to good health like fats, protein, fiber and numerous phytochemicals in amounts far greater than many vegetables. Corn in fact has 3 times the cancer fighting compounds as broccoli, as proven by Cornell.

Dogs can and will eat anything. They are not strict carnivores by any stretch of the imagination. A dog's protein is best from animal sources but whole grains are very nutritious and many type of dogs must have some.

Provided they are gelatinzed, dogs have no problem digesting them.

You can romance all you want that your dog is wolf but your dog is not a wolf. 

You will never see a dog in better coat than one that has some corn in its diet. I do try to keep carbs below 30% on a calorie
basis.


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## CorgiPaws (Mar 31, 2009)

...Claybuster, is that you you old fool?! LOL :biggrin: 

I am not sure where you get off saying that brown rice is "good for" a dog. A dog is a carnivore. While they absolutely WILL eat plant matter such as grass, berries, and even veggies and grain if given the opportunity, they are designed nose to tail to eat, digest, and thrive on meat bones and organs. This is not the place to go into raw, so I won't, but based on that simple fact- dogs are carnivores- you can come to the simple conclusion that animal ingredients= good. Plant ingredients= bad. 

I had a Corgi. His name was Grissom. He was my gateway into raw feeding. See, Grissom had digestive issues from day 1. I started him on Wellness Puppy. He was ok for a few days, then the diarrhea started at 9 weeks old. 
I persisted with Wellness (a grain inclusive food, mind you) for about a month, and that's when I started to worry and looked into things further. That's when I stumbled on this forum. He went from Wellness to Innova Puppy. No improvement. Then he went from Innova Puppy to California Natural. There was slight improvement for a couple days, I had my hopes up! Then, the diarrhea and vomiting came back... worse. So, I put him on EVO Red Meat. Again, improvement for a couple days, and the diarrhea returned. This was over 8 months time. All the while, I had him in the vet for every test we could come up with. It wasn't a simple matter of loose stools... it was watery, bloody diarrhea with large amounts of mucus, vomiting, and lethargy. My Corgi puppy did not act like a puppy. He was skinny, gaunt, and dull. I ached for him. 
His fecal results came back with HUGE quantities of bacteria- bacteria that could be put under control with antibiotics. The food source for this bacteria- the overload of carbohydrates in his food. But he was on Evo, that's about as low carb as it comes! Thus began our journey into raw. 
My point with this whole thing: Dogs don't need carbs. They have NO nutritional need for them, and while you might think they are harmless, for some dogs, they're not. I do not doubt in my mind that there are millions of people, with pets on steroids, antibiotics, and miserable who are suffering from the same reaction to unnecessary carbs in their commercial food, whose vets and owners have not yet had the "ah ha!" moment yet to simply do away with all the carbs, and fix the problem. 

So, while I will respect the differing in opinions a lot of people have on the grain free bandwagon, thinking that a grain, or any carbohydrate source is GOOD for dogs... well, that's laughable at best.


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## CorgiPaws (Mar 31, 2009)

truthdog said:


> You will never see a dog in better coat than one that has some corn in its diet. I do try to keep carbs below 30% on a calorie
> basis.


No?









He begs to differ. 
When he came to me, on low quality kibble (or rather, when he came to Jon and Natalie) he was DULL, shedding like mad, and STUNK. Now, well...look at him. No corn involved. 










...and so does he.


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## meggels (May 30, 2010)

jdatwood said:


> How is brown rice "good" for a carnivore??


this has me cracking up because of the question and then you look to the left with akasha's picture and she looks perplexed as well


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## Scarlett_O' (May 19, 2011)

And so does he!(He also came to me on a low quality processed diet...was "puppy cannon butt" and now....well he is perfect!:wink



















So does he....although he was on Acana from the time he was 8 weeks old, he still has never been healthier with less shedding then now!:biggrin:











And so does Leo, who came to me on olroy....but he says no photos!:wink:


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## Caty M (Aug 13, 2010)

truthdog said:


> Corn in fact has 3 times the cancer fighting compounds as broccoli, as proven by Cornell.


And funded by whom?... Dog food companies I bet!

I think you ought to remind the dogs eating Ol'Roy (a big sack of corn, might I add) that they should NOT be dying at age 5 of cancer like they are, riddled by allergies... 

By the way, broccoli isn't good for dogs, either. :wink:


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## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

truthdog said:


> Whole grains like brown rice and corn have a variety of nutrients that are essential to good health like fats, protein, fiber and numerous phytochemicals in amounts far greater than many vegetables. Corn in fact has 3 times the cancer fighting compounds as broccoli, as proven by Cornell.


you sound just like the ER vet I took my dog to once/twice a month until I quit giving her that stuff and started her on raw food. We haven't had to listen to that stuff being spouted since then, thank goodness.


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## jdatwood (Apr 13, 2009)

meggels said:


> this has me cracking up because of the question and then you look to the left with akasha's picture and she looks perplexed as well


HAHAHAHH!!!


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## meggels (May 30, 2010)

yes bahaha, that's what I had in my head. Akasha with the speech bubble like "rutrow, we don't wanna eat brown rice."


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## Scarlett_O' (May 19, 2011)

meggels said:


> yes bahaha, that's what I had in my head. Akasha with the speech bubble like "rutrow, we don't wanna eat brown rice."


HAHAA...that is EXACTLY what I thought when I saw it like that!LOL Or "Why would *I* eat* THAT*?!?!" LOL :rofl:


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## truthdog (Sep 10, 2011)

Caty M said:


> And funded by whom?... Dog food companies I bet!
> 
> I think you ought to remind the dogs eating Ol'Roy (a big sack of corn, might I add) that they should NOT be dying at age 5 of cancer like they are, riddled by allergies...
> 
> By the way, broccoli isn't good for dogs, either. :wink:


I don't think I have seen so many idiots in one place, seriously. I cannot believe anyone would take advice from a such a group of posers.

Idiots, morons, marketers dream


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## Scarlett_O' (May 19, 2011)

truthdog said:


> I don't think I have seen so many idiots in one place, seriously. I cannot believe anyone would take advice from a such a group of posers.
> 
> Idiots, morons,* marketers dream*


What marketers??

We dont buy from any one marketer! I for one am VERY happy about that as a raw feeder that there is NO big company that I have to buy from....I get to support local farmers, ranchers, butchers and buy from what ever suppliers can offer me the best deals and supply me such a WONDERFUL, natural way to feed my pet CARNIVORES!!


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## hmbutler (Aug 4, 2011)

truthdog said:


> I don't think I have seen so many idiots in one place, seriously. I cannot believe anyone would take advice from a such a group of posers.
> 
> Idiots, morons, marketers dream


yeh we're fricking loonies hey...

oh ps, we're not a dog food marketer's dream... we're actually their nightmare, coz we know better than to believe their crap


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## Scarlett_O' (May 19, 2011)

hmbutler said:


> *yeh we're fricking loonies hey...*
> 
> oh ps, we're not a dog food marketer's dream... we're actually their nightmare, coz we know better than to believe their crap


And PROUD loonies at that!!LOL :lol: :laugh: :rofl: :bounce::madgrin::dance::eyebrows::rockon::roll:ound:


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## RCTRIPLEFRESH5 (Feb 11, 2010)

the best thing about corn is that it reusable feed ur dog corn then when it comes out whole use it for his next meal.


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## Scarlett_O' (May 19, 2011)

RCTRIPLEFRESH5 said:


> the best thing about corn is that it reusable feed ur dog corn then when it comes out whole use it for his next meal.


HAAHAHHAAHAHAHA :rofl:
THAT is SOOOOO true!!LOL :lol:


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## DaneMama (Jun 27, 2008)

truthdog said:


> I don't think I have seen so many idiots in one place, seriously. I cannot believe anyone would take advice from a such a group of posers.
> 
> Idiots, morons, marketers dream


Honestly you've got yourself a bit confused. Why would we be their dream? To me it's you who has been swindled into believing that of all things corn is good for dogs. Marketing done by dog food companies has definitely worked with you. 

Their marketing did nothing for me (and most members here) because we don't even feed commercially processed, puffed, unnatural foods to our dogs. If it had worked, we would all be complaining about dog smell, bad breath, the cost of dentals, and allergy issues. If anything it did the complete opposite...drove us away from feeding kibble.


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## CorgiPaws (Mar 31, 2009)

I just "liked" AND "thanked" a post by rc... this just keeps getting better. 

I'm not sure whose marketing I fell victim to both...Springville Meat Co. and Chao's had never heard of raw feeding dogs before, and they get about $700/ month out of me.... commercial dog food? I don't buy any.


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## InkedMarie (Sep 9, 2011)

truthdog said:


> I don't think I have seen so many idiots in one place, seriously. I cannot believe anyone would take advice from a such a group of posers.
> 
> Idiots, morons, marketers dream


I'm new here but I don't think the rest of us would be called idiots.


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## MollyWoppy (Mar 19, 2010)

truthdog said:


> I cannot believe anyone would take advice from a such a group of posers.
> 
> Idiots, morons, marketers dream


Thats funny, I was thinking the exact same thing about you.


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## Caty M (Aug 13, 2010)

If you think we are idiots why do you keep coming back here every couple months under a different screen name just to argue with us? The proof is in the dog... all of us have gorgeous. shiny, healthy dogs.. Corn (and most dogs being fed a food very high in carbs) dog owners have dull coats, itchy skin, gross teeth. Corn has a ton of Omega 6.. which basically everyone that eats a western diet has too MUCH of, including our western fed dogs... it causes an increase in all inflammatory diseases... cardiovascular, diabetes, cancer, autoimmune disease (including arthritis...), IBS... 

Why would you? :heh:


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## RawFedDogs (Jun 16, 2008)

OK, everyone has had a chance to have his say. Let's get back to the orignal subject. No more sniping from either side.


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## RCTRIPLEFRESH5 (Feb 11, 2010)

oh come on! this forum would be lost without me =p


PuppyPaws said:


> I just "liked" AND "thanked" a post by rc... this just keeps getting better.
> 
> I'm not sure whose marketing I fell victim to both...Springville Meat Co. and Chao's had never heard of raw feeding dogs before, and they get about $700/ month out of me.... commercial dog food? I don't buy any.


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## Javadoo (May 23, 2011)

truthdog said:


> Whole grains like brown rice and corn have a variety of nutrients that are essential to good health like fats, protein, fiber and numerous phytochemicals in amounts far greater than many vegetables. Corn in fact has 3 times the cancer fighting compounds as broccoli, as proven by Cornell.
> 
> Dogs can and will eat anything. They are not strict carnivores by any stretch of the imagination. A dog's protein is best from animal sources but whole grains are very nutritious and many type of dogs must have some.
> 
> ...


Yeah, my 2 labs look absolutely disgusting on grain free food!!





































LOOK at those coats....so nasty.


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