# Puppy mills and pet stores



## bridget246 (Oct 26, 2011)

I brought my dog from a pet store. Didn't know any better at the time. Wasn't planning on getting a dog randomly. GF wanted her so we had to get her. She is helping out now so it is all good. So here is what has been bugging me the most.

Bridget was well taking care of. I don't think she was touched or played with much at the pet store. But beyond that she was great in terms of looks and body. We tested for a ton of genetic problems and she doesn't have any. Even her hips are looking awesome. People kept telling me my dog wasn't a full GSD. Not trainers, just random people. I went online and after looking through lots and lots of pictures I found my dog. Finally I found out the name of some of the dogs that look just like that. I had no idea I brought a rare breed of Shepherd's known as the King GSD. I'm not even 100% sure why the owner wanted to create it. I'm happy they did because I love her and now I want more of them. 

Sometimes I wish I could call up her parents owner. I really want to meet them. My papers might not even be real though. Would you check to see if they are real? I'm sure i'm not the only one who brought their dog from a pet store. Share your story if you did make that choice to buy the cute dog starring at you from the pet store.


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## nupe (Apr 26, 2011)

bridget246 said:


> I brought my dog from a pet store. Didn't know any better at the time. Wasn't planning on getting a dog randomly. GF wanted her so we had to get her. She is helping out now so it is all good. So here is what has been bugging me the most.
> 
> Bridget was well taking care of. I don't think she was touched or played with much at the pet store. But beyond that she was great in terms of looks and body. We tested for a ton of genetic problems and she doesn't have any. Even her hips are looking awesome. People kept telling me my dog wasn't a full GSD. Not trainers, just random people. I went online and after looking through lots and lots of pictures I found my dog. Finally I found out the name of some of the dogs that look just like that. I had no idea I brought a rare breed of Shepherd's known as the King GSD. I'm not even 100% sure why the owner wanted to create it. I'm happy they did because I love her and now I want more of them.
> 
> Sometimes I wish I could call up her parents owner. I really want to meet them. My papers might not even be real though. Would you check to see if they are real? I'm sure i'm not the only one who brought their dog from a pet store. Share your story if you did make that choice to buy the cute dog starring at you from the pet store.



Dobermans Pinschers have a similar sub set within the breed known as THE 'Warlock" Dobermans, but are not really recognized by the Doberman community basically it is said the Warlock Doberman is just a marketing ploy by some dobie breeders to sell oversized Dobermans....similar to 'tea cup' yorkies for example,,,, Is this the same with the King GSD??...and Is the "King" GSD also the same dog as the Shiloh GSD??...........


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## Huginn (Nov 21, 2011)

nupe said:


> Dobermans Pinschers have a similar sub set within the breed known as THE 'Warlock" Dobermans, but are not really recognized by the Doberman community basically it is said the Warlock Doberman is just a marketing ploy by some dobie breeders to sell oversized Dobermans....similar to 'tea cup' yorkies for example,,,, Is this the same with the King GSD??...and Is the "King" GSD also the same dog as the *Shiloh GSD??*...........


I looked this up, I had never heard of a King GSD so I did some research. It said that they used three "breeds" to "make" it, the Shiloh Shepherd (which I read is not even a breed), the German Shepherd, and the Great Pyrenees. I don't know how I feel about this, I am sure some dogs from pet stores are bred responsibly (depending on the store and crossing my fingers on these ones), but most pet stores are in it for the money. That is where you get your puppy mill involvement. I am not saying that all the dogs that come from here are healthy, but they are bred for the wrong reason. That is the problem is that by purchasing a dog from these places you are encouraging them to keep breeding for money and throwing quality out the window. I read that you (the OP) vote with your wallet, if you are all about humane raising of animals this goes the same way. Not all are bad, but most are.


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## kady05 (Jul 29, 2011)

Papers are hung all the time, so they very well might not be "real". But, it's up to you if you want to research them further. What organization are her papers through?

I have never heard of a King GSD; the only recognized GSD is just that, the GSD. 

And, any breeder selling puppies to a pet store is NOT a responsible breeder. By supporting them, people only fuel the puppy mill fire which keeps them in the business of breeding dogs for quantity, not quality.


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## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

Every single puppy bought from a pet store comes from a puppy mill. There are no exceptions.

When we look at the puppy, we often don't think of the misery the mother goes through to produce a cute little dog. And that we are funding and supporting one of the most cruel animal industries in the US.

What kind of papers do you have? A King Shepherd is a mixed breed dog. I don't consider that a bad thing except that he came from a puppy mill. King Shepherds haven't been bred to be deformed like so many GSDs and have a bigger gene pool.

If you got a healthy dog, you are still lucky. Puppy mills aren't known for the quality control of the animals they sell. 

"Warlock" Dobermans are a crock of a breed also. They are mixed with something else. Dobermans don't come in monster size. It's just a sucker line to make money.


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## naturalfeddogs (Jan 6, 2011)

xellil said:


> Every single puppy bought from a pet store comes from a puppy mill. There are no exceptions.
> 
> When we look at the puppy, we often don't think of the misery the mother goes through to produce a cute little dog. And that we are funding and supporting one of the most cruel animal industries in the US.
> 
> ...


I looked up the whole "Warlock" thing years ago when we had dobes, and what I found was that there was indeed an AKC doberman in the 60s who earned a championship. I forget what his registerd name was, but Warlock was part of it. He was only bred very limited because all of his puppies were growing to unusualy large sizes and were not able to be shown. Thats supposedly where the large "Warlock" doberman stuff comes in. Its used as a sales gimic to make people think they are getting a huge dobe related to the real Warlock.


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## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

naturalfeddogs said:


> I looked up the whole "Warlock" thing years ago when we had dobes, and what I found was that there was indeed an AKC doberman in the 60s who earned a championship. I forget what his registerd name was, but Warlock was part of it. He was only bred very limited because all of his puppies were growing to unusualy large sizes and were not able to be shown. Thats supposedly where the large "Warlock" doberman stuff comes in. Its used as a sales gimic to make people think they are getting a huge dobe related to the real Warlock.


Actually, Warlock is a bloodline. He wasn't an unusually large Dobie. There are Dobies that are from the Warlock bloodline, but they are not huge if they are purebred.

the fake warlock Dobies are believed to be mixed with Great Danes and MAYBE the original Warlock bloodline. Like "King Shephereds" they are a re-packaged mixed breed that are then passed off as "rare" and give these people bigger bucks.

What is a warlock Doberman


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## twoisplenty (Nov 12, 2008)

I always thought "King" Sheppard was a term to describe size such as the term "micro" chihuahua. I didnt realize it actually was a combination of breeds. I see people referring to some boxers as "King" boxers now, lol. I just laugh and say a boxer is a boxer, they can come in many different sizes but the standard states the following....... Why do people feel the need to either make everything pocket sized or everything extremely large? They are only asking for problems.


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## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

twoisplenty said:


> I always thought "King" Sheppard was a term to describe size such as the term "micro" chihuahua. I didnt realize it actually was a combination of breeds. I see people referring to some boxers as "King" boxers now, lol. I just laugh and say a boxer is a boxer, they can come in many different sizes but the standard states the following....... Why do people feel the need to either make everything pocket sized or everything extremely large? They are only asking for problems.


My Doberman is really large - he is a rescue but had AKC papers. I found his breeder and she is either a puppy mill or backyard breeder. She was banned by the AKC for falsifying records. I just wonder if she was selling these "Warlock" Dobermans, actually AKC registered. And got caught.


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## GoingPostal (Sep 5, 2011)

bridget246 said:


> I went online and after looking through lots and lots of pictures I found my dog. Finally I found out the name of some of the dogs that look just like that. I had no idea I brought a rare breed of Shepherd's known as the King GSD. I'm not even 100% sure why the owner wanted to create it. I'm happy they did because I love her and now I want more of them.


So you looked at pictures and decided your dog is something else? The "King Shepherd" is about as much of a breed as a Great Doodle, it's a mutt, only recognized by puppy mill and scam registries. You can't go off what strangers say, most people have no idea what they are talking about. What do the papers say and who are they through, you probably just have your typical poorly bred byb dog. What genetic problems was she tested for?


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## twoisplenty (Nov 12, 2008)

GoingPostal said:


> What genetic problems was she tested for?



I see your girl is only 9mths. I'm not sure what genetic tests you had done because there arent many that can be done at that age. Hips/elbows (24mths), Heart (12mths), Thyroid (12mths).

Alot of people think their dog is genetically sound if they pass a rountine vet check. Unless you have the proper testing done, you will never know for sure. Most pet owners dont even bother because health testing can become costly.


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## Sprocket (Oct 4, 2011)

Not all pet stores carry puppy mill puppies.

I worked at a small store who would feature local shelter dogs in the store from day to day.

Our dog had puppies one year (I was 10 and yes my parents are ignorant). It was accidental but it happened. Anyway, my boss let us rehome the puppies through his store at no cost. There was an adoption fee that paid for a sterilization voucher through the local shelter.


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## kady05 (Jul 29, 2011)

Sprocket said:


> Not all pet stores carry puppy mill puppies.
> 
> I worked at a small store who would feature local shelter dogs in the store from day to day.
> 
> Our dog had puppies one year (I was 10 and yes my parents are ignorant). It was accidental but it happened. Anyway, my boss let us rehome the puppies through his store at no cost. There was an adoption fee that paid for a sterilization voucher through the local shelter.


We do have local "big" pet stores (like Petsmart, Pet Supplies Plus & Care-A-Lot) that do adoption events, which is great. 

But the vast majority of pet stores that have puppies are all getting them from puppy mills.


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## wolfsnaps88 (Jan 2, 2012)

I briefly worked at a Pet Land (ducks to avoid getting hit with rotten tomatoes) Notice the word BRIEFLY. I quit after four days. The things I saw! 

I wont bore you with the details. But I was trained to tell people that asked where we got our dogs that they came from USDA qualified dealers. Total crap. They came from a BROKER (middleman) who bought them from puppymills. Petland didn't actually buy them from the mills but through a middleman. So if someone askes "Are these puppies from puppymills?" We could say no. 

I quit four days later. Just long enough to know what was going on and see a lot of horrible things. But yes. Pet stores like this sell very sickly, parvo stricken puppies and it is horrific.


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## Caty M (Aug 13, 2010)

A King shepherd IS a breed, it's not King GSD.. it's a new one and one not recognised by any major kennel clubs or organisations. It's a breed because it breeds true. They are a mix of great pyrenees, Alaskan malamutes, GSDs and shiloh shepherds. Though I doubt one would be in a pet store. What is it registered with and with whom? If it's the AKC it is not a King shepherd because they don't recognise them as a breed. They are so rare I'd be shocked to see one in a pet store. Likely just a badly bred GSD.

And agree with other posters.. it IS too young to properly test for many genetic structural problems and heart problems. Your dog's hips may look just fine now but in two years may be a mess.. too early to say.


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## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

Sprocket said:


> Not all pet stores carry puppy mill puppies.
> 
> I worked at a small store who would feature local shelter dogs in the store from day to day.
> 
> Our dog had puppies one year (I was 10 and yes my parents are ignorant). It was accidental but it happened. Anyway, my boss let us rehome the puppies through his store at no cost. There was an adoption fee that paid for a sterilization voucher through the local shelter.


If they are SELLING the dogs, they are from puppy mills. Period. If they are ADOPTING the dogs from shelters, they will say so and there will be an adoption fee - not a purchase price.


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## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

wolfsnaps88 said:


> I briefly worked at a Pet Land (ducks to avoid getting hit with rotten tomatoes) Notice the word BRIEFLY. I quit after four days. The things I saw!
> 
> I wont bore you with the details. But I was trained to tell people that asked where we got our dogs that they came from USDA qualified dealers. Total crap. They came from a BROKER (middleman) who bought them from puppymills. Petland didn't actually buy them from the mills but through a middleman. So if someone askes "Are these puppies from puppymills?" We could say no.
> 
> I quit four days later. Just long enough to know what was going on and see a lot of horrible things. But yes. Pet stores like this sell very sickly, parvo stricken puppies and it is horrific.


Petland is one of the worst offenders in the country. Sorry you had to work there.

The store employees of all these places are trained on exactly what to say so people can fool themselves into thinking they are getting a dog that was raised in a nice environment and the mother dog is off frolicking in the fields when she's not taking care of her babies.

Edited to add: PetSmart and Petco don't sell dogs. They sponsor adoption events, and adopt cats from local shelters. They DO, however, sell fish, birds, reptiles, and ferrets.


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## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

Caty M said:


> A King shepherd IS a breed, it's not King GSD.. it's a new one and one not recognised by any major kennel clubs or organisations. It's a breed because it breeds true. They are a mix of great pyrenees, Alaskan malamutes, GSDs and shiloh shepherds. Though I doubt one would be in a pet store. What is it registered with and with whom? If it's the AKC it is not a King shepherd because they don't recognise them as a breed. They are so rare I'd be shocked to see one in a pet store. Likely just a badly bred GSD.
> 
> And agree with other posters.. it IS too young to properly test for many genetic structural problems and heart problems. Your dog's hips may look just fine now but in two years may be a mess.. too early to say.


I don't know who decides whether they are breeding true or not, but I found several breeders who don't think they are. here's one breeder (I have no idea what kind of breeders, breeds Alsations) that doesn't think they breed true at all, and he/she is not alone.



> Now that we have the web and computers, go look up the KING SHEPHERDS and y*ou will find that these dogs are not breeding true. *What does that mean? that means that sometimes you will see consistancy in a breeders stock and in another breeders stock, well, they look like Great Pyrenese or Saint Bernards or Belgians or something else. A 'BREED" is not a breed unless and untill it breeds true. When the KING SHEPHERDS all look the same and act the same, then they will be a breed


WHAT IS A KING SHEPHERD


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## wolfsnaps88 (Jan 2, 2012)

The puppies at Petland LIVE in those cages. They aren't allowed on the floor (where I worked) except in those tiny cubicles where people could play with them. THAT was the only interaction they got other than they cages. They don't go outside. They don't go ANYWHERE (unless they are sick with parvo, in which case they go in this metal refridgerater thing that was an isolation area). They buy parvo test kits in BULK.


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## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

wolfsnaps88 said:


> The puppies at Petland LIVE in those cages. They aren't allowed on the floor (where I worked) except in those tiny cubicles where people could play with them. THAT was the only interaction they got other than they cages. They don't go outside. They don't go ANYWHERE (unless they are sick with parvo, in which case they go in this metal refridgerater thing that was an isolation area). They buy parvo test kits in BULK.


yes, so imagine how they treat the parents, who will never see the public. It is thoroughly and totally sickening, and even worse that we as consumers keep supporting this wretched industry by buying these dogs at such inflated prices it goes beyond ridiculous - because if we pay more, we get more - right???? They must be special in some way or they wouldn't cost so much. Gag.


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## Sprocket (Oct 4, 2011)

xellil said:


> If they are SELLING the dogs, they are from puppy mills. Period. If they are ADOPTING the dogs from shelters, they will say so and there will be an adoption fee - not a purchase price.


I understand that  I just thought I would give an example of a situation where it would be wrong to frown upon the puppy in the window before you ask questions


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## CoverTune (Dec 20, 2011)

Petland in Canada is no longer selling puppies or kittens. Any you may see in the stores at the moment are from their "last batch", and they will not be getting any more.

I work at a vet clinic that has a contract with Petland, we did all the 'warranty exams' on the newly purchased puppies and kittens and I would say that 90% came with giardia, and probably at least 60% had some kind of surgery that needed to be paid for by Petland - luxating patella, cherry eye, umbilical hernia etc etc. I've never heard of a case of Parvo at Petland though.


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## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

Sprocket said:


> I understand that  I just thought I would give an example of a situation where it would be wrong to frown upon the puppy in the window


yes, when there is a big sign out front that says "HUMANE SOCIETY ADOPTION EVENT TODAY." 

normally, rescue groups do not go to ANY stores where puppies from puppy mills are sold for profit. And that's as it should be- don't give them any opportunity to make money on so much as a bag of dog food.


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## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

CoverTune said:


> Petland in Canada is no longer selling puppies or kittens. Any you may see in the stores at the moment are from their "last batch", and they will not be getting any more.
> 
> I work at a vet clinic that has a contract with Petland, we did all the 'warranty exams' on the newly purchased puppies and kittens and I would say that 90% came with giardia, and probably at least 60% had some kind of surgery that needed to be paid for by Petland - luxating patella, cherry eye, umbilical hernia etc etc. I've never heard of a case of Parvo at Petland though.


'

Petland has been targeted more fiercely than other stores because they deserved it. I think I read they also closed down or stopped selling dogs in New York City - but, i would be surprised if they hadn't started operating other stores under a different name.

Everyone knows who the puppy mill stores are here, and yet they stay in business. One was successfully shut down - for not paying sales tax.


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## Sprocket (Oct 4, 2011)

xellil said:


> yes, when there is a big sign out front that says "HUMANE SOCIETY ADOPTION EVENT TODAY."
> 
> normally, rescue groups do not go to ANY stores where puppies from puppy mills are sold for profit. And that's as it should be- don't give them any opportunity to make money on so much as a bag of dog food.


At this particular store it was not labeled as an adoption event. It was a special circumstance where the local shelter would allow a group of puppies spend the day at the store without shelter employees or other volunteers. People who enquired were recited information about the pups, instructed to fill out applications and were contacted later by the shelter when they came to pick up the pups. It was over a decade ago when this was going on so it was not an overly organized event. It was a small shelter in a small town so they did what they could to gain attention for their available puppies. 

There was never a sign announcing an adoption event, just playful puppies in a window, enticing children to drag their parents in. It was a lot of fun and a very positive experience.


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## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

Was it a positive and fun experience for the puppy mill dogs he was also selling, if he was?

No pet store sells dogs from a reputable breeder - none.


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## Sprocket (Oct 4, 2011)

xellil said:


> Was it a positive and fun experience for the puppy mill dogs he was also selling, if he was?


No, he never sold any puppies himself. He allowed the shelter to leave the puppies in his care for the day. He and his employees (my sister and I) would take care of them, tell the customers all about them, have them fill out applications. He never saw a penny that went towards those dogs. He profited from the people who adopted the dogs and spent their money at his store on supplies. He was the only pet store in the town of 15,000 and the shelter was the only shelter. The only way people knew those were shelter dogs was when we told them and gave them the application. No signs, no volunteers.

When the shelter had no puppies, guinea pigs or rabbits went in the window.


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## bridget246 (Oct 26, 2011)

kady05 said:


> Papers are hung all the time, so they very well might not be "real". But, it's up to you if you want to research them further. What organization are her papers through?
> 
> I have never heard of a King GSD; the only recognized GSD is just that, the GSD.
> 
> And, any breeder selling puppies to a pet store is NOT a responsible breeder. By supporting them, people only fuel the puppy mill fire which keeps them in the business of breeding dogs for quantity, not quality.


Don't spread about false info. It is a recognized breed and there are few others as well. It is an official breed under the AKC. I have no idea if other organizations would recognize it. I believe GSD's are not the only breed to have different sub groups within them.

I stopped spending my money at these stores a long time ago. I just didn't know. It wasn't very long until I caught on to my mistake of allowing this. I don't regret it though as I would change anything about her so in a strange way I'm kind of glad I didn't know then what I know now.


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## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

Sprocket said:


> No, he never sold any puppies himself. He allowed the shelter to leave the puppies in his care for the day. He and his employees (my sister and I) would take care of them, tell the customers all about them, have them fill out applications. He never saw a penny that went towards those dogs. He profited from the people who adopted the dogs and spent their money at his store on supplies. He was the only pet store in the town of 15,000 and the shelter was the only shelter. The only way people knew those were shelter dogs was when we told them and gave them the application. No signs, no volunteers.
> 
> When the shelter had no puppies, guinea pigs or rabbits went in the window.


Well, he wasn't selling puppies then. he was like PetSmart.

Edited to add: I do see your point. Just because a puppy is in a pet store doesn't mean it is being sold from a puppy mill. However, I do think people know the difference between adopting and buying.


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## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

bridget246 said:


> Don't spread about false info. It is a recognized breed and there are few others as well. It is an official breed under the AKC. I have no idea if other organizations would recognize it. I believe GSD's are not the only breed to have different sub groups within them.
> 
> I stopped spending my money at these stores a long time ago. I just didn't know. It wasn't very long until I caught on to my mistake of allowing this. I don't regret it though as I would change anything about her so in a strange way I'm kind of glad I didn't know then what I know now.


it is definitely not a recognized breed by the AKC. If you have papers saying so, they are false.


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## CoverTune (Dec 20, 2011)

bridget246 said:


> Don't spread about false info. It is a recognized breed and there are few others as well. It is an official breed under the AKC.


Please tell me where on this list, of AKC recognized breeds, you see 'King GSD':
American Kennel Club - Complete List of Breeds

Be careful of accusing others of spreading false info, when you yourself do not have the facts straight.


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## bridget246 (Oct 26, 2011)

xellil said:


> Petland is one of the worst offenders in the country. Sorry you had to work there.
> 
> The store employees of all these places are trained on exactly what to say so people can fool themselves into thinking they are getting a dog that was raised in a nice environment and the mother dog is off frolicking in the fields when she's not taking care of her babies.
> 
> Edited to add: PetSmart and Petco don't sell dogs. They sponsor adoption events, and adopt cats from local shelters. They DO, however, sell fish, birds, reptiles, and ferrets.


Fish that are poorly treated. I would know. I've been raising and breeding fish for about 6 years. I'm out of the breeding now that I have a dog. Not enough time to watch over them and keep them straight. It is so hard to get a fish from the pet store. 95% of the time they aren't healthy and the immune systems are weak in fish that _appear_ healthy. A had a few that were exceptions of this. But even those who were that were awful had a few awesome off spring that lead to more stable fish. I passed and traded my fish within the community so we didn't have to support the pet stores for fish buys. Currently I'm out of room. This last batch is going to be sold off and after that I'm done for awhile.


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## bridget246 (Oct 26, 2011)

CoverTune said:


> Please tell me where on this list, of AKC recognized breeds, you see 'King GSD':
> American Kennel Club - Complete List of Breeds
> 
> Be careful of accusing others of spreading false info, when you yourself do not have the facts straight.


Actually I suppose in a way the AKC does. They currently see it under the normal GSD. My source was off but yet still the info of it not existing was wrong. Edit: This may still be wrong. 

King Shepherd Information and Pictures, King Shepherds

Here is a link to shows where they are recognized. It should be noted that I was careful. My source was off.


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## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

I don't agree with selling any of those animals in pet stores - we brag on Petco and PetSmart but they are making alot of profit from fish and birds. 

I shop at those stores but really it's hypocritical of me to do so. I cringe when i see people buying fish or birds. I know they aren't selling rare giant macaws but those little love birds all caged up - it's really painful to see.

my personal belief is that we shouldn't cage living creatures like that - fish, birds, dogs, whatever. 

I realize I am a little out of the norm and perceived as slightly fruitcake-y, but I can't help how I feel. It's why I have never owned fish or birds, and why I will always find another way to manage my dogs without using a crate, as well as teach them to stay within the property without restricting them with a fence.


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## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

bridget246 said:


> Actually I suppose in a way the AKC does. They currently see it under the normal GSD. My source was off but yet still the info of it not existing was wrong.
> 
> King Shepherd Information and Pictures, King Shepherds
> 
> Here is a link to shows where they are recognized. It should be noted that I was careful. My source was off.


you are wrong. That page says nothing about AKC recognition. They are mixed breed dogs.


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## bridget246 (Oct 26, 2011)

xellil said:


> you are wrong. That page says nothing about AKC recognition. They are mixed breed dogs.


Yep, another bad source. Why are there so many? They are mixed within the AKC and the UKC.


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## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

You love your dog. There's no need to try to make it something special in the eyes of others - he is special to you and that's what counts. ALL dogs are special, all are wonderful dogs and if they have a loving home they are the luckiest dogs in the world.

I love mixed breed dogs. i think they are healthier, smarter, and longer-lived and I've owned close to 50 of them. 

you said you just found photos on the internet and decided your dog was this rare breed. Are you embarrassed of him otherwise?


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## CoverTune (Dec 20, 2011)

There's nothing but bad sources because it's a designer breed.


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## kady05 (Jul 29, 2011)

Yeah sorry, but as others have said, definitely not an AKC or UKC recognized breed. All of those registries that the Dog Breed Info. site listed are bogus ones.. you could send them a picture of a cat and get it registered as a Chihuahua, I'm sure.


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## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

kady05 said:


> Yeah sorry, but as others have said, definitely not an AKC or UKC recognized breed. All of those registries that the Dog Breed Info. site listed are bogus ones.. you could send them a picture of a cat and get it registered as a Chihuahua, I'm sure.


Yes I thought maybe it was registered with an international or European registry but nothing remotely respectable - the American Pet Registry? Gee whillikers - now we know it's legit!

ARBA = American Rare Breed Association
AKSC = American King Shepherd Club
WWKC = World Wide Kennel Club
ERBDC = Eastern Rare Breed Dog Club
SKC = States Kennel Club
APRI = American Pet Registry Inc.
DRA = Dog Registry of America, Inc.


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## Caty M (Aug 13, 2010)

All breeds are 'mixed breed dogs' I guess.. all were mixed at the beginning.. but I would consider a King shepherd a breed. It's a NEW breed, but still a breed (in progress?) still, 99.99999% positive yours is not one since they are hard to find, very uncommon. Again, probably just a badly bred GSD or mix.

There are no subgroups for a king shepherd under the GSD breed. A GSD is not a breed where there are size variations such as poodles and Mexican hairless dogs. A king shepherd is just in no way AKC recognised.


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## DaneMama (Jun 27, 2008)

Is there any chance you could post pictures of your puppy? That way we can see what you're talking about?


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## bridget246 (Oct 26, 2011)

xellil said:


> You love your dog. There's no need to try to make it something special in the eyes of others - he is special to you and that's what counts. ALL dogs are special, all are wonderful dogs and if they have a loving home they are the luckiest dogs in the world.
> 
> I love mixed breed dogs. i think they are healthier, smarter, and longer-lived and I've owned close to 50 of them.
> 
> you said you just found photos on the internet and decided your dog was this rare breed. Are you embarrassed of him otherwise?


No, not embarrassed. I care for her just the same. We still plan on doing shows the same as before. I'm for sure going to keep my dog. 

I attempted to look up my dog. I didn't succeed which means my papers are probably false. Going to call AKC tomorrow to check for sure. She was sold to me as a purebreed GSD from a petstore. Puppymill or not they shouldn't have lied. I haven't 100% confirmed if it was a lie. I typed in the moms numbers and nothing came up. Same with the dad. There is always a chance that I did it wrong. I'm really interested in finding out what she is. I always loved GSD's and I find her to be prettiest I've ever seen so I really want to do a DNA test. Not being "pure" doesn't change the fact of how pretty I find her and does little to cure my curiosity. 

My girlfriend reminded me that I never wanted a petstore dog. I totally forgot about that. I wanted a breeder with papers and I wanted to do a lot more research first so I knew what I was looking for. Petland had papers... they told me a lot so I accepted it with the plan to do more research later because my GF wanted the dog to not stay in the store. I wanted to go home research it and come back the next day. If I had done that I wouldn't have brought her. I will get a DNA test to get some real answers. I will also make plans that aren't illegal to help stop these things from happening to anyone else. I wonder how many non pure breeds the AKC has walking around as "purebreeds". Without forcing DNA test the system is pretty faulty. As I think about it more I really don't understand how giving them a name would make them any less or better than a dog that wasn't given a general name. All mixed breed means now is a dog that wasn't purposely breed or wasn't breed with a name that was recognized. As Xelil has pointed out, some of the mixed breeds turn out better. Only _good_ thing about purebreds is that people pay more for them. What use to make sense to me about dogs doesn't anymore. 

With fish it was different. I breed fish as a way to keep people from shopping in the stores. The stores would buy them from breeders and some of these breeders would get the fish out of their home with giant nets. This lead to a serious decline of the fishes in the wild(fishes is correct, more than one type). The ones in tanks now wouldn't survive going back in the wild. With my fish you got my number, name and address so you could come by and look at the parents. Other useful info was PH I kept them in, behavior of parents, temp of the tank and anything else you wanted to know. I also didn't open the sells or trades or donations to just anyone without the proper home for them.



> Is there any chance you could post pictures of your puppy? That way we can see what you're talking about?


Yea. I'll take some more tomorrow. I have a few already up on this site.

http://dogfoodchat.com/forum/raw-feeding/5504-raw-picture-thread-36.html

That is one of them. She now eats her raw food in the crate lol. I tried to do in the kitchen. No, she thought the living room carpet was better.


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## Dude and Bucks Mamma (May 14, 2011)

bridget246 said:


> Don't spread about false info. It is a recognized breed and there are few others as well. It is an official breed under the AKC. I have no idea if other organizations would recognize it. I believe GSD's are not the only breed to have different sub groups within them.
> 
> I stopped spending my money at these stores a long time ago. I just didn't know. It wasn't very long until I caught on to my mistake of allowing this. I don't regret it though as I would change anything about her so in a strange way I'm kind of glad I didn't know then what I know now.


It is not an AKC recognized breed. Here are the "shepherds" in the AKC Registered Breeds list:

-Anatolian Shepherd
-Australian Shepherd
-German Shepherd
-Pyrenean Shepherd

Here all the "K" breeds:

-Keeshond
-Kerry Blue Terrier
-Komondor
-Kuvasz

Here are the "shepherds" from the FSS list:

-Miniature American Shepherd

And the "K" breeds from the FSS list:

-Kai Ken
-Karelian Bear Dog
-Kishu Ken
-Kooikerhondje


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## Dude and Bucks Mamma (May 14, 2011)

Here is the AKC standard for the GSD:

German Shepherd Dog Breed Standard
Herding Group

General Appearance
The first impression of a good German Shepherd Dog is that of a strong, agile, well muscled animal, alert and full of life. It is well balanced, with harmonious development of the forequarter and hindquarter. The dog is longer than tall, deep-bodied, and presents an outline of smooth curves rather than angles. It looks substantial and not spindly, giving the impression, both at rest and in motion, of muscular fitness and nimbleness without any look of clumsiness or soft living. The ideal dog is stamped with a look of quality and nobility--difficult to define, but unmistakable when present. Secondary sex characteristics are strongly marked, and every animal gives a definite impression of masculinity or femininity, according to its sex.

Temperament
The breed has a distinct personality marked by direct and fearless, but not hostile, expression, self-confidence and a certain aloofness that does not lend itself to immediate and indiscriminate friendships. The dog must be approachable, quietly standing its ground and showing confidence and willingness to meet overtures without itself making them. It is poised, but when the occasion demands, eager and alert; both fit and willing to serve in its capacity as companion, watchdog, blind leader, herding dog, or guardian, whichever the circumstances may demand. The dog must not be timid, shrinking behind its master or handler; it should not be nervous, looking about or upward with anxious expression or showing nervous reactions, such as tucking of tail, to strange sounds or sights. Lack of confidence under any surroundings is not typical of good character. Any of the above deficiencies in character which indicate shyness must be penalized as very serious faults and any dog exhibiting pronounced indications of these must be excused from the ring. It must be possible for the judge to observe the teeth and to determine that both testicles are descended. Any dog that attempts to bite the judge must be disqualified. The ideal dog is a working animal with an incorruptible character combined with body and gait suitable for the arduous work that constitutes its primary purpose.

Size, Proportion, Substance
The desired height for males at the top of the highest point of the shoulder blade is 24 to 26 inches; and for bitches, 22 to 24 inches.

The German Shepherd Dog is longer than tall, with the most desirable proportion as 10 to 8½. The length is measured from the point of the prosternum or breastbone to the rear edge of the pelvis, the ischial tuberosity. The desirable long proportion is not derived from a long back, but from overall length with relation to height, which is achieved by length of forequarter and length of withers and hindquarter, viewed from the side.

Head
The head is noble, cleanly chiseled, strong without coarseness, but above all not fine, and in proportion to the body. The head of the male is distinctly masculine, and that of the bitch distinctly feminine.

The expression keen, intelligent and composed. Eyes of medium size, almond shaped, set a little obliquely and not protruding. The color is as dark as possible. Ears are moderately pointed, in proportion to the skull, open toward the front, and carried erect when at attention, the ideal carriage being one in which the center lines of the ears, viewed from the front, are parallel to each other and perpendicular to the ground. A dog with cropped or hanging ears must be disqualified.

Seen from the front the forehead is only moderately arched, and the skull slopes into the long, wedge-shaped muzzle without abrupt stop. The muzzle is long and strong, and its topline is parallel to the topline of the skull. Nose black. A dog with a nose that is not predominantly black must be disqualified. The lips are firmly fitted. Jaws are strongly developed. Teeth --42 in number--20 upper and 22 lower--are strongly developed and meet in a scissors bite in which part of the inner surface of the upper incisors meet and engage part of the outer surface of the lower incisors. An overshot jaw or a level bite is undesirable. An undershot jaw is a disqualifying fault. Complete dentition is to be preferred. Any missing teeth other than first premolars is a serious fault.

Neck, Topline, Body 
The neck is strong and muscular, clean-cut and relatively long, proportionate in size to the head and without loose folds of skin. When the dog is at attention or excited, the head is raised and the neck carried high; otherwise typical carriage of the head is forward rather than up and but little higher than the top of the shoulders, particularly in motion.

Topline-- The withers are higher than and sloping into the level back. The back is straight, very strongly developed without sag or roach, and relatively short.

The whole structure of the body gives an impression of depth and solidity without bulkiness.

Chest--Commencing at the prosternum, it is well filled and carried well down between the legs. It is deep and capacious, never shallow, with ample room for lungs and heart, carried well forward, with the prosternum showing ahead of the shoulder in profile. Ribs well sprung and long, neither barrel-shaped nor too flat, and carried down to a sternum which reaches to the elbows. Correct ribbing allows the elbows to move back freely when the dog is at a trot. Too round causes interference and throws the elbows out; too flat or short causes pinched elbows. Ribbing is carried well back so that the loin is relatively short. Abdomen firmly held and not paunchy. The bottom line is only moderately tucked up in the loin.

Loin Viewed from the top, broad and strong. Undue length between the last rib and the thigh, when viewed from the side, is undesirable. Croup long and gradually sloping.

Tail bushy, with the last vertebra extended at least to the hock joint. It is set smoothly into the croup and low rather than high. At rest, the tail hangs in a slight curve like a saber. A slight hook- sometimes carried to one side-is faulty only to the extent that it mars general appearance. When the dog is excited or in motion, the curve is accentuated and the tail raised, but it should never be curled forward beyond a vertical line. Tails too short, or with clumpy ends due to ankylosis, are serious faults. A dog with a docked tail must be disqualified.

Forequarters
The shoulder blades are long and obliquely angled, laid on flat and not placed forward. The upper arm joins the shoulder blade at about a right angle. Both the upper arm and the shoulder blade are well muscled. The forelegs, viewed from all sides, are straight and the bone oval rather than round. The pasterns are strong and springy and angulated at approximately a 25-degree angle from the vertical. Dewclaws on the forelegs may be removed, but are normally left on. The feet are short, compact with toes well arched, pads thick and firm, nails short and dark.


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## Dude and Bucks Mamma (May 14, 2011)

And the rest:

Hindquarters
The whole assembly of the thigh, viewed from the side, is broad, with both upper and lower thigh well muscled, forming as nearly as possible a right angle. The upper thigh bone parallels the shoulder blade while the lower thigh bone parallels the upper arm. The metatarsus (the unit between the hock joint and the foot) is short, strong and tightly articulated. The dewclaws, if any, should be removed from the hind legs. Feet as in front.

Coat 
The ideal dog has a double coat of medium length. The outer coat should be as dense as possible, hair straight, harsh and lying close to the body. A slightly wavy outer coat, often of wiry texture, is permissible. The head, including the inner ear and foreface, and the legs and paws are covered with short hair, and the neck with longer and thicker hair. The rear of the forelegs and hind legs has somewhat longer hair extending to the pastern and hock, respectively. Faults in coat include soft, silky, too long outer coat, woolly, curly, and open coat.

Color 
The German Shepherd Dog varies in color, and most colors are permissible. Strong rich colors are preferred. Pale, washed-out colors and blues or livers are serious faults. A white dog must be disqualified.

Gait
A German Shepherd Dog is a trotting dog, and its structure has been developed to meet the requirements of its work. General Impression-- The gait is outreaching, elastic, seemingly without effort, smooth and rhythmic, covering the maximum amount of ground with the minimum number of steps. At a walk it covers a great deal of ground, with long stride of both hind legs and forelegs. At a trot the dog covers still more ground with even longer stride, and moves powerfully but easily, with coordination and balance so that the gait appears to be the steady motion of a well-lubricated machine. The feet travel close to the ground on both forward reach and backward push. In order to achieve ideal movement of this kind, there must be good muscular development and ligamentation. The hindquarters deliver, through the back, a powerful forward thrust which slightly lifts the whole animal and drives the body forward. Reaching far under, and passing the imprint left by the front foot, the hind foot takes hold of the ground; then hock, stifle and upper thigh come into play and sweep back, the stroke of the hind leg finishing with the foot still close to the ground in a smooth follow-through. The overreach of the hindquarter usually necessitates one hind foot passing outside and the other hind foot passing inside the track of the forefeet, and such action is not faulty unless the locomotion is crabwise with the dog’s body sideways out of the normal straight line.

Transmission The typical smooth, flowing gait is maintained with great strength and firmness of back. The whole effort of the hindquarter is transmitted to the forequarter through the loin, back and withers. At full trot, the back must remain firm and level without sway, roll, whip or roach. Unlevel topline with withers lower than the hip is a fault. To compensate for the forward motion imparted by the hindquarters, the shoulder should open to its full extent. The forelegs should reach out close to the ground in a long stride in harmony with that of the hindquarters. The dog does not track on widely separated parallel lines, but brings the feet inward toward the middle line of the body when trotting, in order to maintain balance. The feet track closely but do not strike or cross over. Viewed from the front, the front legs function from the shoulder joint to the pad in a straight line. Viewed from the rear, the hind legs function from the hip joint to the pad in a straight line. Faults of gait, whether from front, rear or side, are to be considered very serious faults.

Disqualifications
Cropped or hanging ears.
Dogs with noses not predominantly black. 
Undershot jaw.
Docked tail.
White dogs. 
Any dog that attempts to bite the judge.


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## bridget246 (Oct 26, 2011)

I agreed with being wrong about the AKC. Not only that but my friend told me they were wrong and they misread their sources. So we are all in agreement on the AKC part.


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## Dude and Bucks Mamma (May 14, 2011)

"Only good thing about purebreds is that people pay more for them. What use to make sense to me about dogs doesn't anymore. "

I beg to differ. I know how big Buck is going to get. I know what his temperament will be like and I know how he will behave. I could begin to formulate a training program before I even got him as well as hound-proof my house. I knew that he would fit into our lifestyle and not end up being a dog that would be more of a burden than a joy. Purebreds are predictable. For me, personally, it probably wouldn't matter much if I adopted a mutt puppy at a shelter who got huge and had a ton of energy because 1) I own a high energy hound and 2) I want a dane next anyway but size and behavior are two big reasons dogs end up in a shelter in the first place. 

I absolutely agree that you should keep her. There is no reason to get rid of her. What people are correcting you on is that the King Shepherd is not an AKC recognized breed. They are not a type of GSD and are not really even a true breed at all yet. Maybe one day they will be an AKC breed. They must breed true first. Even just for the chocolate color to be added to the dane standard it has to breed true for 6 generations first.


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## kady05 (Jul 29, 2011)

Oh and FWIW, those DNA tests are a waste of money. So even doing that isn't going to definitively tell you if she's purebred or not.


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## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

Actually, people pay alot more for mixed breeds than purebreds alot of times - labradoodles, malti-poos etc. Those dogs can cost into the thousands. There's a site out there with teeny tiny dogs about 2 pounds that go for $7000 on up. 

Honestly, folks could get a better dog for less money by going to someone reputable, where you can see the parents, check their health, and make sure they aren't living in inhumane conditions. And have help and support to boot.


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## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

Caty M said:


> All breeds are 'mixed breed dogs' I guess.. all were mixed at the beginning.. but I would consider a King shepherd a breed. It's a NEW breed, but still a breed (in progress?) still, 99.99999% positive yours is not one since they are hard to find, very uncommon. Again, probably just a badly bred GSD or mix.
> 
> There are no subgroups for a king shepherd under the GSD breed. A GSD is not a breed where there are size variations such as poodles and Mexican hairless dogs. A king shepherd is just in no way AKC recognised.


Well, you said they are a breed because they breed true. Apparently they don't. Besides, I read that they have to breed true for multiple generations, starting with a large gene pool, for a minimum of 20 years. It's not that easy to create a new breed no matter how much people say they have one.

It's a mixed breed dog.


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## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

bridget246 said:


> I agreed with being wrong about the AKC. Not only that but my friend told me they were wrong and they misread their sources. So we are all in agreement on the AKC part.


you probably have a GSD. Puppy mills often do the designer dogs because it is impossible to get AKC registration for mixed breeds and it saves them alot of hassle, but you can also get purebreds. Do you think she's out of the AKC standard? All purebred dogs don't always fall within the standard.

I think you should forget about any King Shepherd stuff - you can't determine a dog by looking at photos on the internet.

You can call the AKC just to double check. On the weird chance someone is falsifying papers, they would probably be interested. Especially from a pet store.


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