# good food i can feed them all



## bubbabear (Nov 3, 2010)

I have 2 german shepherds 2 1/2yrs & 11 months, and 2 dachshunds 7yrs & 4yrs. I'm looking for ideas for an affordable food i can feed them all. My oldest doxie and shepherd both seem to have some allergies, and my shepherd puppy doesnt really ever have firm poop. With 4 mouths to feed, 2 of them being big mouths i need something that isnt super expensive. but i want the best for these guys.


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## Caty M (Aug 13, 2010)

Do you know what the allergies might be to? Try a grain free food like Taste of the Wild.. if you are on a tight budget Kirkland food from costco is quite good for the price, but isn't grain free.


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## wags (Jan 31, 2009)

Wellness has their limited ingredients line which appears to be good.
Look for a top brand with limited ingredient types. Go to their web sight if you like wellness and you can sign up for coupons. One main meat ingredient could be fish ~whatever your dog is not allergic to~.
Of course Orijen is what I like or Acana, but their are great top notch foods out there. Foir my dogs I swicth every couple months the type of food they are eating protein wise, this way they have less chances of allergies. You say two of yours have allergies. what are they allergic to?


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## cast71 (Sep 16, 2010)

Whats your monthly budget on dog food? It looks like you'll be going through at least 2 large bags of food a month. There's alot of foods to choose from. Grainless are better, but cost more money. You feed less with grainless, so it's not so bad. Taste of the wild is good for dogs with allergies and its not so bad on the pocket book ;0)


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## bubbabear (Nov 3, 2010)

I'm not really sure what they are allergic to. both seem to do better without the chicken in their food, and best on a fish based food. I've feed TOTW before and they did ok on it. I'm looking for more options around that price range. We go through usually about 2-2 1/2 big bags of dog food a month. And i dont have a costo around me so that doesnt work. just looking for more options then totw i can feed them that around that price range. I'm paying about $45 for a bag of totw usually comes to about $49 after tax


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## cast71 (Sep 16, 2010)

If you have a tractor supply around its cheaper. I buy 3 bags at a time from Greenies, Orijen, Acana, Wellness, Flossies, Natural & Organic Dog Food - DoggieFood.com I use Coupon DFC100 SPEND $100.00 GET 15% OFF ENTIRE STORE! It brings it to around $41 a bag including shipping. Depending where you live, the shipping could kill the deal. That's the cheapest grainfree I know of. Before Grain is a couple of bucks more. They have 3 formulas but there really mostly chicken:biggrin: I think TOTW is better. The next step up is canidae grainfree. Its around $50 a bag, but has higher protein and fat levels. It also contains more calories. Its a descent food and might even be a better deal than TOTW. If your looking for lower options, diamond natural is ok. They sell it at tractor supply.


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## bubbabear (Nov 3, 2010)

i looked at that website doggiefood.com and looks like their food is reasonably priced. i found Earthborn Holistic dog food is about the same price as TOTW, and they are pretty high in calories from 500-700 depending on the formula so i wouldnt have to feed as much since i believe totw is 300something. Has anyone fed this food? is it ok to feed to an 11month old german shepherd puppy as well?
thanks


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## RCTRIPLEFRESH5 (Feb 11, 2010)

earthborn hollistic is an awesome food...if its the same price as totw grab it.


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## cast71 (Sep 16, 2010)

When comparing food I go by kcal/kg. Still a big difference. There Earthborn Holistic Primitive Natural formula has 5184 kcal/kg, while TOTW is at 3,750 kcal/kg. That formula looks pretty good. It has 38% protein and 20% fat. Alot of meat and low carbs. Meaning less fillers:smile: The other formulas have low protein and fat percentages and probablly high carbohydrates. That means there probablly grain heavy. You can save 15% from doggiefood.com by entering code earthborn. As far as feeding your GSP, you need to find out the calcium and phosphourous levels(give them a call). Calcium should be at 1.5% or lower max and phosphorous should be at 1% or lower max. You should feed that until your puppy finishes growing. You can feed Oriejen LBP, TOTW sierra mounatin, Welness LBP, chicken soup LBP, or diamond natural LBP. There's probablly others, these are a few I can think of.


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## RCTRIPLEFRESH5 (Feb 11, 2010)

if its the primitive natursl id reccoemnd it over totw, but if its the others i say go with totw.


Earthborn Holistic® Primitive Natural™ Dog Food: Ingredients

INGREDIENTS: Turkey Meal, Chicken Meal, Whitefish Meal, Potatoes, Chicken Fat (preserved with mixed tocopherols, a source of vitamin E), Dried Egg Product, Tomato Pomace, Apples, Blueberries, Carrots, Peas, Spinach, Garlic, Yucca Schidigera Extract, Taurine, Cottage Cheese, L-Lysine, DL-Methionine, Beta-Carotene, Calcium Carbonate, Zinc Oxide, Magnesium Proteinate, Copper Sulfate, Manganous Oxide, Niacin, D-Calcium Pantothenic Acid, Vitamin A Supplement, L-Carnitine, Vitamin B12 Supplement, Ascorbic Acid, Ferrous Sulfate, Biotin, Riboflavin (Vitamin B2), Thiamine Hydrochloride (Vitamin B1), Calcium Iodate, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride (Vitamin B6), Vitamin D3 Supplement, Folic Acid, Manganese Proteinate, Iron Proteinate, Zinc Proteinate, Copper Proteinate, Dried Lactobacillus Plantarum, Enterococcus Faecium, Lactobacillus Casei, Lactobacillus Acidophilus Fermentation Products.


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## meggels (May 30, 2010)

I'm a rep for Earthborn and am actually feeding two of my dogs the primitive natural formula right now. They love it and are doing great on it. It is higher in calories but so far it doesn't seem like either of them are gaining weight even though I have been feeding them about the same amount as when they are on lower calorie (more normal calorie) foods. My 20lb frenchie eats about 1 cup a day of it, and my 35lb hound mix eats 1.5 cups of it a day. Actually, I take that back, I have noticed that they may seem a *smidge* heavier, but not much. I like to keep my dogs more on the lean side anyways, they aren't fat by any means. 

My frenchie has always had allergies and skin & coat issues and I think that right now, his coat is the softest it's ever been. Granted, it could be that I've been better about remembering to squirt some fish oil on his food more often, but who knows, maybe it's something in the food. 

I think it's about the same price as TOTW though, but it only comes in 28lb bags as the largest, whereas TOTW is 30lbs at the largest.


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## cast71 (Sep 16, 2010)

Hi meggels, the ingredients in the primitive natural formula, looks pretty good. Is the fish meal ethoxyquin free? It doesn't really make sense, that you should have to feed the same amount, of a much lower calorie content food Maybe most of the protein is not coming from meat sources? That would also explain why the price is comparable to TOTW.


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## meggels (May 30, 2010)

cast71 said:


> Hi meggels, the ingredients in the primitive natural formula, looks pretty good. Is the fish meal ethoxyquin free? It doesn't really make sense, that you should have to feed the same amount, of a much lower calorie content food Maybe most of the protein is not coming from meat sources? That would also explain why the price is comparable to TOTW.


Honestly, I'm not sure. I can look into that if you want. It might say somewhere in my info that I have for it that I missed. 

They did gain a *smidge*, but it isn't all that noticeable and it's not like they ballooned up LOL.


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## cast71 (Sep 16, 2010)

I currently feed TOTW. I am interested in feeding him this in rotation. There's a big difference in calorie content. I feed my dog about 3.5 cups, which comes out to about 1300 calories a day. He's in good shape. A lot of people think he's skinny, but the vet thinks he's good. I don't think I would want to feed 3.5 cups of primitive natural to him. That would be like double the calorie intake. Maybe I would feed him 2-2.5 cups??? Next time I order food, i'll try out a bag and see how it goes. That's kool that your frenchie that had allergies, is doing great on it. My dog is pretty sensitive to ingredients as well. I can't feed him any grains. He does horrible on them. Bad skin and coat, nasty ears, and gross eyes  I was also thinking of trying canidae grainfree in rotation. I'm going to still use TOTW. I've had the closest results with it, to when he was on raw. He always gets compliments on how soft he is, like a soft polar bear ahahaha. Today a lady asked how old he was, and couldn't believe he was 8. She thought he was a puppy. She started asking all sorts of questions about diet. I basically told her good diet, alot of exercise and keep them at a good weight. I need to take my own advice:biggrin:


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## saltydogs (Oct 31, 2010)

bubbabear said:


> I have 2 german shepherds 2 1/2yrs & 11 months, and 2 dachshunds 7yrs & 4yrs. I'm looking for ideas for an affordable food i can feed them all. My oldest doxie and shepherd both seem to have some allergies, and my shepherd puppy doesnt really ever have firm poop. With 4 mouths to feed, 2 of them being big mouths i need something that isnt super expensive. but i want the best for these guys.


The best affordable foods are Kirkland & Pro Pac. Pro Pac is made by the same company that makes Earthborn Holistics, which is recommended above.


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## cast71 (Sep 16, 2010)

I was looking into primitive natural formula and found it use to contain Menadione (Vitamin K3), which has a bunch of negative effects. The Dog Food Project - Menadione (Vitamin K3) I did a quick look at all there formulas including pro pac and it looks like they don't contain it anymore. Pro Pac does have rice gluten meal in three of its recipes.


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## saltydogs (Oct 31, 2010)

I use High Performance, no glutens of any kind, no K3, nothing artificial, 575 cals a cup, with coupons and the free bags (#10) it goes for well below $1lb.

Excelllent food, one of the best values. It is one of the few 30/20's that you can go cold turkey and not get a whiff of gas. It is very digestible and you can tell because the dogs drink very little water after eating. I would rank it in the top 5 performance kibbles. Very meat heavy for the money.

Also EU certified, which means the chicken meal grade is top notch and the other ingredients are "human grade"


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## cast71 (Sep 16, 2010)

Whats the calorie content measured in kcal/kg? I couldn't find it on there site. If your looking to compare foods by calorie content, thats the best way. It's by weight and not fluid ounces. Also, you can not use this to compare alone. Especially grain versus grainfree. I would take a lower calorie content grainfree, over a grain food, just because of the higher meat content.

The food doesn't look too bad. There's no byproducts and limited ingredients, but the *second *ingredient is corn. I would say just from that, it's not meat heavy. It probably has as much corn in it, as it does meat. That's probably how there boosting the calorie content and protein levels??? You still can't sell me on corn or any other grain. My dog was on corn at one time. He did horrible on all grains. In fact, if I give him a grain inclusive food for more than a few days, all hell breaks out. Especially from his butt ahahahahaha. 

If your looking for a budget food, I think this is better or at least comparable to pro pac performance. It's also a lot cheaper. Extreme Athlete Dry Dog Food | Diamond Pet Foods I bet if you go by kcal/kg, its comparable as well. It probably has more meat in it. The first 2 ingredients are meat and the protein and fat are way higher. Plus rice has less calorie content as corn. That makes me think, it has higher meat in it as well.


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## saltydogs (Oct 31, 2010)

cast71 said:


> Whats the calorie content measured in kcal/kg? I couldn't find it on there site. If your looking to compare foods by calorie content, thats the best way. It's by weight and not fluid ounces. Also, you can not use this to compare alone. Especially grain versus grainfree. I would take a lower calorie content grainfree, over a grain food, just because of the higher meat content.
> 
> The food doesn't look too bad. There's no byproducts and limited ingredients, but the *second *ingredient is corn. I would say just from that, it's not meat heavy. It probably has as much corn in it, as it does meat. That's probably how there boosting the calorie content and protein levels??? You still can't sell me on corn or any other grain. My dog was on corn at one time. He did horrible on all grains. In fact, if I give him a grain inclusive food for more than a few days, all hell breaks out. Especially from his butt ahahahahaha.
> 
> If your looking for a budget food, I think this is better or at least comparable to pro pac performance. It's also a lot cheaper. Extreme Athlete Dry Dog Food | Diamond Pet Foods I bet if you go by kcal/kg, its comparable as well. It probably has more meat in it. The first 2 ingredients are meat and the protein and fat are way higher. Plus rice has less calorie content as corn. That makes me think, it has higher meat in it as well.



Pro Pac high performance has 572 cals per 4 ounces by weight. It is on the website.

Ground corn only has 8% protein, so it can't be much of total protein. Protein from meat sources is about 75%, for this priced food it is quite high. If it had corn gluten then I would agree with you.

Why does Diamond have to put ground paper in the food? LOL

I can tell you why its cheaper and it has to do with the cost of ingredients. Pro Pac is EU Certified, meaning it can be exported to Europe and ingredient requirements are much tougher. You have to use "human grade" ingredients. I am not saying its better but that is probably why it costs more.

I have used Extreme Athlete and I think it is terrible.

Pro Pac HP is not cheap, actually its more expensive than Canidae by the Lb, but it goes really far.


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## cast71 (Sep 16, 2010)

> Pro Pac high performance has 575 cals per 4 ounces by weight, so it has slighly more cals than Diamond. In this case its 4 ounces by volume and weight, rare coincidence.


When dog food companies use kcal/cup, it is how much kibble that can fit in an 8 oz. fluid cup. Since kibble comes in different forms, you can not use this to compare. If you use kcal/kg, its being measured by weight. Doesn't that make sense?



> Ground corn only has 8% protein, so it can't be much of total protein. Protein from meat sources is about 75%, for this priced food it is quite high. If it had corn gluten then I would agree with you.


They are using corn to boost the calorie content, since it has a lot more calories than rice. That would boost the protein up as well.



> Why does Diamond have to put ground paper in the food? LOL


If you talking about powdered cellulose, I agree. To me corn is the same thing as ground paper. My dog does not digest corn, or any other grain. Like I said before, he has a real hard time with it. I will not put him through anymore suffering, to save a buck. Every dog I've seen go from grain food, to grainfree food, has done 100% better. That's not scientific, but logic tells me I should recommended grainfree. If you physically see something, sometimes you do not need scientific studies. They probably don't exist anyway. The other diamond formulas do not contain ground paper, but they do contain grains, which is equivalent for dogs:biggrin:




> I have used Extreme Athlete and I think it is terrible.


Honestly, I have no experience with this formula. I was just going by the ingredients. Why do you think its terrible? Did your dog do bad on it? Two of my friends are using the chicken formula and lamb formula. There dogs are doing excellent. That's a total of 6 dogs. I reccomend that food to get people off of ol' roy, which is what they were on:biggrin: Some people just can't afford any better, which is understandable. I think you should get the best you can afford. 

How much does your dog weigh and how much pro pac do you give? If you used a low calorie grainfree like TOTW, do you think you would have to feed more or less? Have you tried TOTW before?


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## saltydogs (Oct 31, 2010)

cast71 said:


> When dog food companies use kcal/cup, it is how much kibble that can fit in an 8 oz. fluid cup. Since kibble comes in different forms, you can not use this to compare. If you use kcal/kg, its being measured by weight. Doesn't that make sense?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


My dogs range from 50lbs to 95lbs. I have used all the grain frees and they lose to much weight and I have seen several hunting dogs collapse with exertional hypoglycemia on them. That type of food just doesn't work for dogs that run for hours in front of horses, day after day.

My largest gun dog is a young intact male, 95lbs and he gets 3 cups of Pro Pac HP. The smallest is a female that gets 1.5 cups. I have some young hunting terriers, friends dogs, on half a cup.

They both are trained pretty heavily and I do not supplement.

By the way the calories of 572 are by WEIGHT of 4 ounces, which is 8 ounes by volume. I understand completely what your are saying.

Rice is 6% protein so the differential to corn is noted but not that significant.

If grains are not cooked properly they can give a dog problems, but once corn is processed properly the protein in corn is more digestible than any grain 99% and the carbs are just as digestible as rice. No matter what grain it is it has to be gelatinzed properly.

I would not use anything with wheat or oats. Oats are way too hot.


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## cast71 (Sep 16, 2010)

How do you know they collapsed with exertional hypoglycemia? Don't you need to do a blood test? Did you go to a vet to get this conclusion? 

My dog is not a working dog. 1 time he was out 3 hours and another time 7 hours in a blizzard. He has a very short coat, so that means he has to keep moving. So he basically kept moving for 7 hours straight, in very low temperatures(around 5-15 degrees, I don't remember the actual temp), in about 2 feet of snow. He was in 2000 acres of state forest the whole time, so I doubt he found anything to eat. When I did find him, he looked fine. He did not look cold at all. If he sits for too long, he gets cold and starts shivering. That means he never stopped moving. I don't remember if he was on raw at that time, but if not he was definitely on grainfree. He always goes out on the worst of weather, for hours at a time. He never looks cold or tired when he gets back. I don't get it, but he loves rain, snow mud you name it. He is a hunting dog, so that might explain it. Maybe the dogs that you saw collapse with exertional hypoglycemia, could of had other health problems? Could be from too many carbs. Dogs do get diabetes. 

I guess your dogs need alot of calories and using corn is a way to bring the cost of feeding them down. I still think more meat is better. How do you explain wolfs diets? They eat 99.9% meat. Almost no carbs and no grains. They use more energy than a working dog. They are surviving and in balance with nature. They are thriving in yellow stone park. There not doing so good in idaho. Cheap ranchers and farmers can't give up a few livestock. If there livestock could defend itself, they wouldn't have that problem:biggrin: There not native to this land. Maybe they should breed traits of the buffalo into there cattle, or better yet switch to buffalo ahahahahaha Wolfs do more good than harm, if any to the ecosystem. Losing a few livestock is no excuse for genocide. 

Also what pro pac formulas are you recommending? Only the performance formula? What was the results, when you had your dogs on diamond naturals athlete formula? What about the rest of diamond naturals?

You feed corn and I'll feed no grains:wink:


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## saltydogs (Oct 31, 2010)

cast71 said:


> How do you know they collapsed with exertional hypoglycemia? Don't you need to do a blood test? Did you go to a vet to get this conclusion?
> 
> My dog is not a working dog. 1 time he was out 3 hours and another time 7 hours in a blizzard. He has a very short coat, so that means he has to keep moving. So he basically kept moving for 7 hours straight, in very low temperatures(around 5-15 degrees, I don't remember the actual temp), in about 2 feet of snow. He was in 2000 acres of state forest the whole time, so I doubt he found anything to eat. When I did find him, he looked fine. He did not look cold at all. If he sits for too long, he gets cold and starts shivering. That means he never stopped moving. I don't remember if he was on raw at that time, but if not he was definitely on grainfree. He always goes out on the worst of weather, for hours at a time. He never looks cold or tired when he gets back. I don't get it, but he loves rain, snow mud you name it. He is a hunting dog, so that might explain it. Maybe the dogs that you saw collapse with exertional hypoglycemia, could of had other health problems? Could be from too many carbs. Dogs do get diabetes.
> 
> ...


I only use 30/20's so PP HP. By the way wolves don't eat just meat. They eat lots of fruit, grass tops, wild oats, certain roots and obviously the grasses and grains inside prey. Wild canines eat what they can find. Have you ever seen coyote poop? You would be amazed how much plant matter is in it.

I think you overestimate the amount of corn in this food and the amount of protein wolves get from animals. I have seen coyotes dig up carrots in gardens and pull corn and tomatoes down many times.

By the way, every hunter has seen extertional hypoglycemia before and thats why you always have some Karo Syrup with you. 

Diamond foods always have very inconsistent stools, gas and the food from bag to bag always looked and smelled differently.


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## buddy97 (Mar 29, 2010)

saltydogs said:


> I only use 30/20's so PP HP. By the way wolves don't eat just meat. They eat lots of fruit, grass tops, wild oats, certain roots and obviously the grasses and grains inside prey. Wild canines eat what they can find. Have you ever seen coyote poop? .


first, dogs descended from wolves, not coyotes.

second, wolves generally do not eat contents of their prey's stomach.

The following quotations are taken from L. David Mech's 2003 book Wolves: Behavior, Ecology, and Conservation. Mech (and the others who contributed to this book) is considered the world's leading wolf biologist, and this book is a compilation of 350 collective years of research, experiments, and careful field observations. These quotes are taken from chapter 4, The Wolf as a Carnivore.

_"Wolves usually tear into the body cavity of large prey and...consume the larger internal organs, such as lungs, heart, and liver. *The large rumen [, which is one of the main stomach chambers in large ruminant herbivores,]...is usually punctured during removal and its contents spilled. The vegetation in the intestinal tract is of no interest to the wolves, but the stomach lining and intestinal wall are consumed,* and their contents further strewn about the kill site." (pg.123, emphasis added)

*"To grow and maintain their own bodies, wolves need to ingest all the major parts of their herbivorous prey, except the plants in the digestive system*."_


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## xxshaelxx (Mar 8, 2010)

saltydogs said:


> I only use 30/20's so PP HP. By the way wolves don't eat just meat. They eat lots of fruit, grass tops, wild oats, certain roots and obviously the grasses and grains inside prey. Wild canines eat what they can find. Have you ever seen coyote poop? You would be amazed how much plant matter is in it.


HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!! Once again, thanks for the laugh. Seriously? The fact that you can tell there is plant matter means they don't DIGEST that plant matter. They get NO nutrients from it. If you can TELL that it's plant matter, that's how it goes in, and it's how it comes back out. And have you never read up anything on wolves? Wolves don't eat the stomach contents. On larger prey, they will take the stomach out, rip a hole in it, an shake everything out of it. Therefore, they do not eat what is actually in the stomach. It is also a proven fact that wolves are opportunistic eaters, meaning they will eat whatever they can get when they can get it, because they don't know when their next meal is going to be. 




saltydogs said:


> I think you overestimate the amount of corn in this food and the amount of protein wolves get from animals. I have seen coyotes dig up carrots in gardens and pull corn and tomatoes down many times.


BS. I live in a state with coyotes around every corner. First of all, they're nocturnal. Coyotes are RARELY seen during the day, and most often do their hunting at night. So I'm guessing your guard your corn in the middle of the night? And you have bright, bright lights on it so you can see them in the pitch black? Oh, let's not forget that I've taken many walks and found more animal bones than I've EVER found holes from where coyotes have dug ANYTHING up. Actually, I've never found a hole where a coyote has dug anything up... Explains EVERYTHING!




saltydogs said:


> Diamond foods always have very inconsistent stools, gas and the food from bag to bag always looked and smelled differently.


Wow, so that explains why my dogs always had solid, consistent stools, rarely had gas, and their food always looked and smelled the same? Yeah, I did feed TOTW. Oh, and by the way, they could handle that a LOT better than the Solid Gold that I fed them as well! *gasp* What a concept!


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## saltydogs (Oct 31, 2010)

xxshaelxx said:


> HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!! Once again, thanks for the laugh. Seriously? The fact that you can tell there is plant matter means they don't DIGEST that plant matter. They get NO nutrients from it. If you can TELL that it's plant matter, that's how it goes in, and it's how it comes back out. And have you never read up anything on wolves? Wolves don't eat the stomach contents. On larger prey, they will take the stomach out, rip a hole in it, an shake everything out of it. Therefore, they do not eat what is actually in the stomach. It is also a proven fact that wolves are opportunistic eaters, meaning they will eat whatever they can get when they can get it, because they don't know when their next meal is going to be.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I have fed granny smith apples to wolves have you?


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## saltydogs (Oct 31, 2010)

*here you go wolf boy*

"Since wolves in captivity live longer than wild wolves (and possibly longer than comparably sized domestic dogs) , what is the recommended diet for captive wolves? The husbandry chapters of the Nutrition Advisory Group of the American Zoo and Aquarium Association seem to recommend dry, commercial dog food as the primary source of food for captive wolves. (here, here, and here). There is also some evidence that the dental hygiene of captive wolves is better when fed commercial dry dog food then when fed a raw meat diet supplemented with bone meal and vitamin and mineral supplements. These recommendations indicate that professional zoologists and zoo veterinarians find commercial diets superior to raw meat diets for several reasons. Bones and whole prey may be given for behavioral enrichment, or to help transition wolves to predation in reintroduction projects, but ordinary dog food is perfectly adequate to maintain wolves in captivity and avoids problems associated with nutritional imbalances, bacterial contamination and spoilage"


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## xxshaelxx (Mar 8, 2010)

saltydogs said:


> I have fed granny smith apples to wolves have you?


I could probably feed my dogs apples, too. They'd probably love it. I can feed my dogs chocolate. They would LOVE that.


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## saltydogs (Oct 31, 2010)

*Smithsonian Zoo - Wolf Diet*

"Dry kibble dog food made for wild canines, plus treats of chicks, mice, hard-boiled eggs, and oxtail bones"


I could go on and on about this. Wild canines in zoos eat a lot of kibble. They also seem to like romaine lettuce.

Some zoos use "wild canine" blends which have more by-products but some just use regular high protein kibbles.

Ironically, the zoo vets say the wolves are healthier with normal commercial dog food as the basis for the diet.


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## xxshaelxx (Mar 8, 2010)

saltydogs said:


> "Since wolves in captivity live longer than wild wolves (and possibly longer than comparably sized domestic dogs) , what is the recommended diet for captive wolves? The husbandry chapters of the Nutrition Advisory Group of the American Zoo and Aquarium Association seem to recommend dry, commercial dog food as the primary source of food for captive wolves. (here, here, and here). There is also some evidence that the dental hygiene of captive wolves is better when fed commercial dry dog food then when fed a raw meat diet supplemented with bone meal and vitamin and mineral supplements. These recommendations indicate that professional zoologists and zoo veterinarians find commercial diets superior to raw meat diets for several reasons. Bones and whole prey may be given for behavioral enrichment, or to help transition wolves to predation in reintroduction projects, but ordinary dog food is perfectly adequate to maintain wolves in captivity and avoids problems associated with nutritional imbalances, bacterial contamination and spoilage"


Inconclusive when you look up the direct reference here, and the references made on the actual page. The dental health records show that the dogs fed a meat based diet were fed a soft diet, a pre-made raw diet with no solid bones.

As for the links to the pages about suggested nutrition in zoos, it does not say anything about kibble vs. raw. It simply states what KIND of kibble to feed, and if you did not notice, it is complete crap. IE: Purina, Science Diet, etc. They recommend to stay away from such diets as Ol Roy.

Per the last article listed for zoo nutritional recommendations, I've got one link for you:

http://dogfoodchat.com/forum/raw-feeding/5265-duncan-going-barf.html



Perhaps you should do a little more research when trying to back your outlandish ideas than just someone's blog.


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## buddy97 (Mar 29, 2010)

saltydogs said:


> "Since wolves in captivity live longer than wild wolves (and possibly longer than comparably sized domestic dogs) , what is the recommended diet for captive wolves? The husbandry chapters of the *Nutrition Advisory Group of the American Zoo and Aquarium Association seem to recommend dry, commercial dog food as the primary source of food for captive wolves.* (here, here, and here). There is also some evidence that the dental hygiene of captive wolves is better when fed commercial dry dog food then when fed a raw meat diet supplemented with bone meal and vitamin and mineral supplements. These recommendations indicate that professional zoologists and zoo veterinarians find commercial diets superior to raw meat diets for several reasons. Bones and whole prey may be given for behavioral enrichment, or to help transition wolves to predation in reintroduction projects, *but ordinary dog food is perfectly adequate to maintain wolves in captivity and avoids problems associated with nutritional imbalances, bacterial contamination and spoilage*"



yes, dog food can maintain captive wolves, just as many humans can be maintained by food that is less than ideal. what this passage fails to disclose is the biggest reason kibble is used to maintain wolves in zoos. i am friends with a couple people who used to work at Brookfield Zoo outside of chicago. while they agree raw diets are more natural and healthy, they also admit the *realities of the tight budgets facing zoos necessitates the use of commercially prepared foods whenever possible.*
the kibble bought in bulk is many, many times cheaper than buying/preparing/storing a biologically appropriate diet.

the quote you have used seems to propose 3 reasons for not using raw model diets for captive wolves:

-nutritional imbalances, which would occur only because they are not feeding a raw diet in its proper proportions

-bacterial contamination....canines are generally welll equipped to handle this, but properly procured and stored raw meat wouldnt have this problem.

better dental hygiene on kibble....that has been proven false for so long, im wondering if those quotes are from 1975...anyone who has fed raw realizes how much cleaner their dogs teeth are vs when they ate kibble.

im not trying to push raw here....only refuting that a diet utilizing grains is "superior" to a meat based diet (or kibble, for that matter).

finally, keep in mind that sadly, wolves in captivity at zoos are far less active than probably 95% of the dogs on this board.


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## xxshaelxx (Mar 8, 2010)

saltydogs said:


> Ironically, the zoo *vets* say the wolves are healthier with normal commercial dog food as the basis for the diet.


Vets are not taught about nutrition in school, thus gain a highly overrated view that they know more than anyone else about it and will recommend the wrong diet in all the wrong places in most cases, and when given the chance to speak highly of such brands as Science Diet, which they get kickbacks for, will definitely do so.


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## xxshaelxx (Mar 8, 2010)

buddy97 said:


> better dental hygiene on kibble....that has been proven false for so long, im wondering if those quotes are from 1975...anyone who has fed raw realizes how much cleaner their dogs teeth are vs when they ate kibble.
> im not trying to push raw here....only refuting why a meat based diet (or kibble, for that matter), is better than a diet utilizing grains.


Buddy, here's the actual article that statement is based off of:

JSTOR: An Error Occurred Setting Your User Cookie


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## Caty M (Aug 13, 2010)

Of course wolves can be maintained on dog kibble. Dogs are physically the same as wolves. And I agree. Bone meal does not clean teeth.. whole bones do.

Personally the fact that in their natural state grains offer nothing to dogs is enough to convince me they are not necessary. And cheap dog food is mostly grain.. which tells me its only there to bring the cost down. Dogs thrive with no carbohydrate at all.. again means grains are unnecessary and potentially harmful.


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## buddy97 (Mar 29, 2010)

xxshaelxx said:


> Buddy, here's the actual article that statement is based off of:
> 
> JSTOR: An Error Occurred Setting Your User Cookie


ha. i was close with my guess....1982...and who knows from how far back they gleaned their "information."

....back when vets tried to push their special Science Diet Dental diet kibble to help clean pets teeth. (i guess they still do)


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## saltydogs (Oct 31, 2010)

*Another Kibble Fed to Wolves*

The Project also uses a dried, pelleted food (Mazuri Exotic Canine Diet) that is specifically formulated for the zoo trade and commonly referred to as “kibble.” The primary meat ingredients in kibble are poultry and pork. Other ingredients as detailed on the label include: ground corn, poultry byproduct meal, ground brown rice, corn gluten meal, animal fat preserved with BHA, poultry fat preserved with ethoxyquin, poultry digest, porcine meat meal, brewer’s dried yeast, dried beet (the root vegetable) pulp, ground soybean hulls, dried whey, dried egg product, flash dried blood meal, calcium carbonate, dicalcium phosphate, potassium chloride, salt, choline chloride, pyridoxine hydrochloride, menadione dimethylpyrimidinol bisulfite, DL-methionine, taurine, cholecalciferol, biotin, DL-alpha tocopheryl acetate, vitamin A acetate, inositol, folic acid, calcium pantothenate, thiamine mononitrate, ethoxyquin (a preservative), riboflavin, nicotinic acid, cyanocobalamin, manganous oxide, ferrous sulfate, cobalt carbonate, copper sulfate, zinc oxide, calcium iodate, and sodium selenite.


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## saltydogs (Oct 31, 2010)

*Wolf Kibble*

http://www.mazuri.com/PDF/5MN2.pdf

First Ingredient is Corn.

So might point is....don't believe everything you read on the internet.

I think I would feed those wolves Pro Pac HP instead.


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## Caty M (Aug 13, 2010)

What are you trying to prove... that wolves live longer in captivity on a low grade kibble? Of course they do. They get medical care, regular meals, shelter etc.. things which wild wolves don't. Id like to see how long wolves maintained on a species appropriate kibble like orijen or raw would live.


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## cast71 (Sep 16, 2010)

> It is also a proven fact that wolves are opportunistic eaters, meaning they will eat whatever they can get when they can get it, because they don't know when their next meal is going to be.


I totally agree with this. That's why your seeing plant matter in the stools, as well as them raid your garden. There hungry. I've heard horror storys lately, of people going into forclosure, and abandoning there house with the dogs locked in the closet They end up eating sheet rock! If it was naturally digestible, you wouldn't see it in there stool. 



> BS. I live in a state with coyotes around every corner. First of all, they're nocturnal. Coyotes are RARELY seen during the day, and most often do their hunting at night. So I'm guessing your guard your corn in the middle of the night? And you have bright, bright lights on it so you can see them in the pitch black? Oh, let's not forget that I've taken many walks and found more animal bones than I've EVER found holes from where coyotes have dug ANYTHING up. Actually, I've never found a hole where a coyote has dug anything up... Explains EVERYTHING!


Got to agree again. Coyotes in the daytime most likely have rabies.



> By the way, every hunter has seen extertional hypoglycemia before and thats why you always have some Karo Syrup with you.


I would use organic blackstrap molasses for the same results. It's natural, organic and unprocessed. You really love your corn man:smile:



> Diamond foods always have very inconsistent stools, gas and the food from bag to bag always looked and smelled differently.


My friends have had nothing but success with there six dogs on Diamond natural. I can contest of no gas problems. Chicken soup and TOTW are excellent. Diamond took such a beaten 5 years ago, that they invested alot of money in quality control equipment. The local rep told me all the testing is computer monitored. It might be one of the best quality control systems as of right now. For some reason I believe this. I guess if diamond ever screws up again, there done. 

The bottom line is pro pac performance doesn't sound like a bad food, but its far from the best. I guess your going to believe processed corn is great and most people here are going to stick with meat.


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## cast71 (Sep 16, 2010)

> yes, dog food can maintain captive wolves, just as many humans can be maintained by food that is less than ideal. what this passage fails to disclose is the biggest reason kibble is used to maintain wolves in zoos. i am friends with a couple people who used to work at Brookfield Zoo outside of chicago. while they agree raw diets are more natural and healthy, they also admit the realities of the tight budgets facing zoos necessitates the use of commercially prepared foods whenever possible.
> the kibble bought in bulk is many, many times cheaper than buying/preparing/storing a biologically appropriate diet.


That's exactly why there using kibble and it's also the reason why corn is a top ingredient!


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## cast71 (Sep 16, 2010)

> http://www.mazuri.com/PDF/5MN2.pdf
> 
> First Ingredient is Corn.
> 
> ...


What does that prove, wolfs can survive on garbage and toxins in captivity. That formula has, by products, corn gluten meal, ethoxyquin, menadione, and probablly more crap I missed. You can't compare wolfs in captivity to active dogs. That's like comparing locked up convicts to athletes.


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## xxshaelxx (Mar 8, 2010)

And remember, people are living into their eighties on McDonalds.


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## bubbabear (Nov 3, 2010)

well my thread took so many different turns lol. i saw there had been over 40 commments and was suprised. interesting read though. i do not want to feed them corn if i can help it, i just dont think there is any use for it in their food.


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## Gia (May 29, 2009)

Just thought I'd add that I see coyotes during the day quite often! One day I was on the main freeway through a long stretch of grassy hills peppered with cattle and I saw 4 coyotes. I saw one standing alone observing the herds...another hill later I saw another one standing alone and another hill later I saw a mother with two teenage pups trotting along a ridgeline. This is not an isolated incident. I see them during the day quite often, in pastures mostly and on hillsides.


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