# New Puppy is Kibble Fed :/



## BrownieM (Aug 30, 2010)

My new puppy, Tiger, (6 months) is kibble fed. He was on Iams when I got him and I am transitioning him to Acana Pacifica. As most of you know, I feed my other two poodles raw. I want to switch Tiger to raw SO BADLY, but I'm not sure if it is feasible because he will be living with a handler off and on when he is shown in conformation. Sending him with homemade raw is not an option, unfortunately. Sending him with pre-made raw is far too expensive for me.  He will go to the handler in about 2 months. I hope that his career will be very short and sweet.

Anyway, I am really not enjoying the "side effects" of feeding kibble. Tiger has massive poops, he poops 2-3 times a day, his teeth have plaque (he's 6 months and he has more plaque than raw fed Henry at 3!) and his breath stinks like dog breath.

It seems that feeding a high quality kibble until his championship is finished is the only way to do it. 

Fingers crossed that he will attain his championship quickly and will be finished as a puppy. He will no doubt be raw fed as soon as I can manage it!


----------



## Tobi (Mar 18, 2011)

Gosh i don't know if i could have a dog that had to live with somebody else... I don't show and probably will never but ugh that seems like not only a hassle but a heartbreaking experience. Hopefully He gets his championship quick and can get raw fed!!! :biggrin:


----------



## BrownieM (Aug 30, 2010)

Well, it's really not that big of a hassle. :wink: He'll be just fine and well taken care of. He will be 90 minutes from me and it will be a very short part of his life. I trust this particular handler very much and so does his breeder. I plan to go to as many shows as I can to see him. It _will_ be sad, but it will be the quickest and cheapest way for him to be finished. It will be quicker because the handler knows how to show him, groom him, take care of his coat, etc. I won't have to worry about ruining his coat, learning how to do a show groom, etc. It will be cheaper because I won't have to buy all of the expensive grooming equipment, drive to all of the shows and because he will be finished quicker.

In the future, I do hope to owner handle a poodle! It is not an easy task, though. Poodles (esp. the standard variety) are one of the hardest, if not the hardest, breeds to owner handle.

The sooner he finishes, the sooner he comes home to momma and gets shaved down into a pet clip, living a doggy life, eating raw meat! :smile:

Think of it this way, if I hadn't bought him (with an agreement to show and finish him), he'd probably never have been given the opportunity to eat raw meat! He was going to be kept and shown by the breeder. :wink:


----------



## DaneMama (Jun 27, 2008)

Just feed him raw when he's with you, fast him before he ever leaves to go to a show and send him with kibble each time he goes. 

Sucks you can't feed a dog you own what you'd like him to eat :frown:


----------



## BrownieM (Aug 30, 2010)

Well, I did know that I was getting myself into this situation before I bought a show dog that I planned to send with a handler. He could be living with the handler for 3-5 weeks at a time, so I'm not sure if I can just feed him raw and then send him away with kibble. Would most dogs adjust right away? I'd be concerned about diarrhea...

He will leave in about 2 months. Would 2 months even be enough time to get him adjusted fully to raw? I feel like it took my dogs a bit longer. I really am OK with feeding him a grain free kibble for the next few months of his life, although it is not ideal in my mind. I will have the rest of his life to make up for it! :biggrin: I would think that maybe it would be easier on his system to just wait until he is done showing, and then switch him to raw forever.

I wish I could do some sort of a mix - like one kibble meal a week or something that would allow him to switch back to kibble easily for those weeks that he is away.


----------



## CorgiPaws (Mar 31, 2009)

That sucks, I don't think I could tolerate compromising my dog's nutrition for show. Did you talk to the handler about feeding raw? Why can they not do it? I'd be pretty uncomfortable putting my dogs in the care of someone who can not take proper care of them, diet included. They won't even feed a commercial raw while they have them? Why do they have these limitations?
Best of luck, you must be a stronger person than I am, I don't think I could fathom sending mine away for those periods of time. I am sure glad I won't be sending my Danes away!!


----------



## BrownieM (Aug 30, 2010)

PuppyPaws said:


> That sucks, I don't think I could tolerate compromising my dog's nutrition for show. Did you talk to the handler about feeding raw? Why can they not do it? I'd be pretty uncomfortable putting my dogs in the care of someone who can not take proper care of them, diet included. They won't even feed a commercial raw while they have them? Why do they have these limitations?
> Best of luck, you must be a stronger person than I am, I don't think I could fathom sending mine away for those periods of time. I am sure glad I won't be sending my Danes away!!


The handler will absolutely, positively feed commercial raw! I know many people who have dogs that eat commercial raw with this handler and with other handlers. I simply cannot afford it.  

While I believe that raw is best for my dogs, I don't think that a few extra months of feeding high quality kibble to my dog is going to sacrifice his longevity or overall health in the long term. While it's not ideal, there are far worse things that my dog could be eating than Acana Pacifica! I don't see feeding a high quality kibble for a few months of a dog's life to be sacrificing his health. Not at all! 

Before I even bought this dog, or decided on this dog, I knew he would be leaving me for a minimum of 3 weeks at a time. I have had months to adjust to this fact. It was in my mind when I decided to get this dog. Yes, it will be difficult, But, in the grand scheme of his entire life, this will be a very short and insignificant part. :smile:


----------



## DaneMama (Jun 27, 2008)

If they are comfortable feeding a commercial raw, why not prepackage your own raw? Down to the day and meal? Sure it'll take a bit more time to plan it out this way...but ultimately it's best for the dog. I would at least ask about it.

You're probably right that being on kibble probably won't hurt for another few months, but I think its not ideal. It's like a mom saying that when their kids go off to summer camp it won't hurt them in the long run to eat cheap, inappropriate foods. It probably won't hurt, but definitely not ideal.


----------



## CorgiPaws (Mar 31, 2009)

DaneMama said:


> If they are comfortable feeding a commercial raw, why not prepackage your own raw? Down to the day and meal? Sure it'll take a bit more time to plan it out this way...but ultimately it's best for the dog. I would at least ask about it.
> 
> You're probably right that being on kibble probably won't hurt for another few months, but I think its not ideal. It's like a mom saying that when their kids go off to summer camp it won't hurt them in the long run to eat cheap, inappropriate foods. It probably won't hurt, but definitely not ideal.


But, it's a SHOW dog.


----------



## jdatwood (Apr 13, 2009)

Sorry, I just don't get it...

Why buy a dog to let someone else raise it, feed it what they want, so you can take possession again at a later date with an extraneous piece of paper that states someone thinks the dog looks better than some others.


----------



## BrownieM (Aug 30, 2010)

PuppyPaws said:


> But, it's a SHOW dog.


What is this supposed to mean?


----------



## tem_sat (Jun 20, 2010)

No guarantees, but you may start with 2 days a week raw (chicken quarters or backs to start) and the rest of the week feed Acana. Then raise that to 3 days a week if Tiger is doing well. I would think for a bit more as a monetary "bonus" the handler could "handle" buying and storing some chicken quarters to supplement Tiger's Acana. He would be fine on that until he comes back and can have more variety.


----------



## BrownieM (Aug 30, 2010)

jdatwood said:


> Sorry, I just don't get it...
> 
> Why buy a dog to let someone else raise it, feed it what they want, so you can take possession again at a later date with an extraneous piece of paper that states someone thinks the dog looks better than some others.


Ooh goodness gracious! I'm sorry I ever posted in this forum today. 

I thought perhaps my fellow raw feeding friends would empathize with the ickiness of kibble feeding, but would be understanding and supportive that sometimes it is necessary in certain circumstances. Apparently, I was wrong! 

I bought a very nice quality dog and have agreed to have him finished to his championship. He should be very easy to finish. Then, I hope that he will go on to do other wonderful things, WITH ME, like agility, conformation and therapy work. Eventually, he will be health tested. If he attains his championship, demonstrantes superior personality and health, and passes health tests, he may be offered for stud, way down the line, after he has turned two. If everything goes right (which is not guaranteed, of course!) and breeders actually want ot use him, he has a diverse pedigree that will be a positive thing in the poodle pool. I'm sorry, but I hardly think that what I am doing is wrong. Disagree if you want, but I didn't ask for advice on whether or not I should send my dog with a handler.

It's a tough decision, but it is the fastest way to get my dog back to a normal life, without having to be in show coat.


----------



## stajbs (Jun 5, 2010)

Another possible concern I would question would be if this pup/dog was intended for show, does that mean breeder intended to keep him/her(sorry forgot to check gender)to show just until the dog receives their championship title. Or what if the dog does well in shows they may want to "special" the dog and then they could be away from you even longer. Or what if it takes a long time to achieve the championship title. Perhaps this is stipulated in your contract already? I'm trying to understand, in fact I always struggle to understand having a dog that is mine away from me. The friends I have who show are owner/handlers and they feed raw. Hopefully the championship is achieved quickly sometimes that can be a juggling game from what I understand. Sorry, but showing was never my thing, and I'm trying to understand.


----------



## CorgiPaws (Mar 31, 2009)

BrownieM said:


> What is this supposed to mean?


It saddens me that ANY aspect of a dog's well being would be compromised for some stupid titles, that's all. Every time the topic of showing dogs comes up, I'm reassured that it's something I will never subject my dogs to. 
It's your show dog. You make those calls. I wouldn't be able to do that for my pack. More power to you, and good luck in the ring.


----------



## jdatwood (Apr 13, 2009)

I didn't offer advice. I gave my OPINION.

I think it's LUDICROUS to buy a dog to have it be raised by someone else, fed what THEY want, just so you can have some "title" that really doesn't mean ANYTHING except your dog is prettier than others according to some judges OPINION. 

These beauty contests do more harm to breeds than good. 

I feel sorry for your puppy that its health is being sacrificed for a beauty pageant.

Congrats on buying a "pretty" dog


----------



## luvMyBRT (Mar 8, 2010)

Why can't you learn to show him and be his handler? Then you can feed him what ever you want.....

Duncan was purchased as a show dog (companion dog first and foremost). Both his parents and grandparents are Champions. Duncan's breeder was going to be my mentor and I was going to take classes to learn how to be a handler. If my dog was going to a show I wanted to be there. If my dog was going into the ring I wanted to be at his side. Showing was something that I was going to be involved with, so I wanted to learn the ends and outs. However, due to Duncan's health condition plans changed....and that's okay. Maybe it's just me, but I just didn't want anyone else handling my dog but me.


----------



## jdatwood (Apr 13, 2009)

luvmybrt said:


> duncan was purchased as a show dog (*companion dog first and foremost)*. Maybe it's just me, but *i just didn't want anyone else handling my dog but me*.


thank you!! What's the point...


----------



## CavePaws (Jan 25, 2011)

jdatwood said:


> Sorry, I just don't get it...
> 
> Why buy a dog to let someone else raise it, feed it what they want, so you can take possession again at a later date with an extraneous piece of paper that states someone thinks the dog looks better than some others.


I was thinking the exact same thing...I guess if it was in the contract you signed, I could see somewhat of a point to sending him off if you want him to become a "pet" sooner...Honestly, I really think you should just pre-package your dogs food yourself and send it with him. The handler can store it. I mean how much will he eat a day, anyway? I agree that it isn't right to sacrifice the overall well being and happiness of your dog for a title that who knows how many other dogs have. If you can't afford to buy commercial raw which I wouldn't suggest anyway, my next suggestion would be to package your dogs food and send it with him. What is so difficult about that?


----------



## CorgiPaws (Mar 31, 2009)

BrownieM said:


> Ooh goodness gracious! I'm sorry I ever posted in this forum today.
> 
> I thought perhaps my fellow raw feeding friends would empathize with the ickiness of kibble feeding, but would be understanding and supportive that sometimes it is necessary in certain circumstances. Apparently, I was wrong!
> 
> ...


I can't empathize with you on a choice that you willing make for yourself and your dogs. 
I don't see it as a "tough" decision. 
Have your dog, at home, with you, where he belongs, where he will recieve the care any dog deserves.... or send him away with a handler, where you really have no idea what care he's getting, other than that they won't even feed him an appropriate diet, but will get some nifty titles? No brainer, for me anyway. 
I get that you want to get him "back to a normal life the fastest way" but why subject him to the abnormal life at all? Why not just show him yourself? Sure, it might take longer, but then you'd have control over his well being.


----------



## BrownieM (Aug 30, 2010)

stajbs said:


> Another possible concern I would question would be if this pup/dog was intended for show, does that mean breeder intended to keep him/her(sorry forgot to check gender)to show just until the dog receives their championship title. Or what if the dog does well in shows they may want to "special" the dog and then they could be away from you even longer. Or what if it takes a long time to achieve the championship title. Perhaps this is stipulated in your contract already? I'm trying to understand, in fact I always struggle to understand having a dog that is mine away from me. The friends I have who show are owner/handlers and they feed raw. Hopefully the championship is achieved quickly sometimes that can be a juggling game from what I understand. Sorry, but showing was never my thing, and I'm trying to understand.


I co-own the dog until he has his championship title. As soon as this dog has his championship title, he is fully mine and nobody has any say in his life except for me. If I want to special him, I can, but that is not in the plans. It is not likely that he will take a long time to finish, he has been assessed by a handler already. Actually finding his 2 majors (enough dogs in a show to beat) will be the greatest challenge. Some shows simply don't have enough competition. 

If I was an owner/handler, I could feed him raw, of course.


----------



## DaneMama (Jun 27, 2008)

BM- Its not that I don't empathize with you, you're certainly stronger than I could be with sending him off. I guess I don't understand why you would want to send him off JUST so that he can finish early. Why not learn to show him yourself, even if it takes longer? If you're going to be in the world of showing and breeding poodles I think its a good thing for you to learn and experience on your own. If you do show him yourself, you can make every decision in his life since YOU are the owner AND handler. Its also a great honor to a named a "breeder/handler" and not just be the owner. If that makes sense.....

If I were in your shoes, I would take this as a learning opportunity and dive right into showing yourself. I don't agree with showing really, but if I did...*I* would certainly want to be the person there, with him, sharing in his wins and accomplishments.


----------



## jdatwood (Apr 13, 2009)

This just reminds me of...


----------



## SilverBeat (Jan 16, 2011)

I don't have an opinion on showing other than I'm really not interested in it, I just wanted to say that if I got a dog and it was being fed a crap kibble like Iams, and had bad teeth at such a young age, I would want to get it on the most nutritious diet possible, as soon as possible. 

Yes there are worse things than "premium" kibble... there are also worse things than high fructose corn syrup and GMOs. I like the fact that my dog thrives on his raw diet... not just survives.


----------



## BrownieM (Aug 30, 2010)

PuppyPaws said:


> I can't empathize with you on a choice that you willing make for yourself and your dogs.
> I don't see it as a "tough" decision.
> Have your dog, at home, with you, where he belongs, where he will recieve the care any dog deserves.... or send him away with a handler, where you really have no idea what care he's getting, other than that they won't even feed him an appropriate diet, but will get some nifty titles? No brainer, for me anyway.
> I get that you want to get him "back to a normal life the fastest way" but why subject him to the abnormal life at all? Why not just show him yourself? Sure, it might take longer, but then you'd have control over his well being.


Owner/handling a poodle is an extremely difficult task. Something I am not up for the challenge of yet.

Not to mention, owner/handling may not ever be in my cards due to my allergies. To be honest, I simply cannot spend that much time in the grooming area of a dog show. 

I am doing my best to help improve the breed.


----------



## CorgiPaws (Mar 31, 2009)

jdatwood said:


> this just reminds me of...


yes!!!!!!!!!!!!


----------



## BrownieM (Aug 30, 2010)

SilverBeat said:


> I don't have an opinion on showing other than I'm really not interested in it, I just wanted to say that if I got a dog and it was being fed a crap kibble like Iams, and had bad teeth at such a young age, I would want to get it on the most nutritious diet possible, as soon as possible.
> 
> Yes there are worse things than "premium" kibble... there are also worse things than high fructose corn syrup and GMOs. I like the fact that my dog thrives on his raw diet... not just survives.


He does not have "bad teeth". He has the beginnings of tartar. I would not buy a dog with bad teeth.

I think you forget that you are talking to a raw feeder here. I eat plenty of high fructose corn syrup, btw!


----------



## stajbs (Jun 5, 2010)

Well based on all you have said, lets just hope that the championship is achieved quickly. Handlers and owners play games all the time about who is and isn't going to certain shows. Hopefully your new show dog can achieve those majors quickly, and then be back with you.


----------



## BrownieM (Aug 30, 2010)

I thought I had a group of people who supported me but I was clearly wrong. I couldn't feel any more unwelcome.


----------



## SilverBeat (Jan 16, 2011)

BrownieM said:


> He does not have "bad teeth". He has the beginnings of tartar. I would not buy a dog with bad teeth.
> 
> I think you forget that you are talking to a raw feeder here. I eat plenty of high fructose corn syrup, btw!


Sorry, I was generalizing. I would consider early stages of tartar at 6 months to be bad teeth.


----------



## luvMyBRT (Mar 8, 2010)

That's exactly my thoughts. I knew that Duncan would have show potential. So I went into it preparing to learn all that I could about the show world because I wanted to be with him every step of the way.


----------



## jdatwood (Apr 13, 2009)

BrownieM said:


> I thought I had a group of people who supported me but I was clearly wrong. I couldn't feel any more unwelcome.


I just don't get it... I want to support your decisions but this just seems silly to me


----------



## DaneMama (Jun 27, 2008)

BrownieM said:


> I thought I had a group of people who supported me but I was clearly wrong. I couldn't feel any more unwelcome.


I'm sorry you feel this way, that wasn't my intent. I'm just wanting to know more about why you wouldn't want to get into showing yourself, even if it is a challenge to be an owner/handler. Wouldn't that make it more worthwhile on both of your parts? Honestly I'm just trying to help, not only Tiger be healthier but also help you dive into something that you are clearly passionate about.


----------



## SilverBeat (Jan 16, 2011)

BrownieM said:


> I thought I had a group of people who supported me but I was clearly wrong. I couldn't feel any more unwelcome.



A lot of the "main" users on the raw board are not involved with showing either out of lack of interest or a dislike for the tradition. Therefore many of us don't understand why or how people in the habit of showing do the things that they do. It is nothing personally against you.

I can empathize because my dog had to be fed Pedigree for three months before I took him home, and often I was the one feeding it to him.. It hurt my heart to see what that kibble did to him, I will never willingly put him in a situation like that.


----------



## BrownieM (Aug 30, 2010)

jdatwood said:


> I just don't get it... I want to support your decisions but this just seems silly to me


The dog is going with a handler. IF he was not going with a handler, I likely could not have gotten a dog of this quality. Many breeders will not sell a poodle of this quality to a newbie because it is *that* hard to finish them. It doesn't matter what you think, silly or not, he is going with a handler. That has been decided for a long time and I have not come here to debate it. Really, it is a shameful thing you are doing, beating someone up about showing their dog with a handler who will take excellent care. At least I am trying to do something for the breed. Really, what is this fight worth to you? To make a stranger across the country feel bad?


----------



## jdatwood (Apr 13, 2009)

SilverBeat said:


> A lot of the "main" users on the raw board are not involved with showing either out of lack of interest or a dislike for the tradition. Therefore many of us don't understand why or how people in the habit of showing do the things that they do. It is nothing personally against you.


Exactly! It's not a personal thing at all. I just can't wrap my head around it...



BrownieM said:


> The dog is going with a handler. IF he was not going with a handler, I likely could not have gotten a dog of this quality. Many breeders will not sell a poodle of this quality to a newbie because it is *that* hard to finish them. It doesn't matter what you think, silly or not, he is going with a handler. That has been decided for a long time and I have not come here to debate it. Really, it is a shameful thing you are doing, beating someone up about showing their dog with a handler who will take excellent care. At least I am trying to do something for the breed. Really, what is this fight worth to you? To make a stranger across the country feel bad?


Oh come on now BM.. Don't pull the pity card now.

I'm not trying to make you feel bad. I just don't get it. I probably never will

I never will understand why a paper title stating that some judges think your dog is prettier than others is "helping" a breed.

I can't fathom buying a dog to give it to someone else to raise just so you can pat yourself on the back for having a "pretty" dog (and maybe getting some stud fees down the road)


----------



## BrownieM (Aug 30, 2010)

DaneMama said:


> I'm sorry you feel this way, that wasn't my intent. I'm just wanting to know more about why you wouldn't want to get into showing yourself, even if it is a challenge to be an owner/handler. Wouldn't that make it more worthwhile on both of your parts? Honestly I'm just trying to help, not only Tiger be healthier but also help you dive into something that you are clearly passionate about.


You have to understand that I am extremely allergic to dogs. While I can live with poodles with mild to moderate symptoms, it is not likely that I could ever spend the time necessary in a grooming section of a dog show, full of golden retrievers and labs, to be able to show my own dog. I am trying to do the best that I can with those limitations.


----------



## luvMyBRT (Mar 8, 2010)

BrownieM said:


> IF he was not going with a handler, I likely could not have gotten a dog of this quality. Many breeders will not sell a poodle of this quality to a newbie because it is *that* hard to finish them.


:twitch::twitch::twitch::twitch:


----------



## BrownieM (Aug 30, 2010)

luvMyBRT said:


> :twitch::twitch::twitch::twitch:


Please, tell me what you are implying? Is it that difficult to be understanding and kind to someone? What did I ever do to you? I don't think I have ever said an off comment to you on this entire forum and thought that you were a supportive friend that I had here.


----------



## CorgiPaws (Mar 31, 2009)

Making you feel unwelcome was not the intent. A lot of us simply do not understand why he must be sent away in the first place. 

We have many differing opinions on this forum in regards to nutrition, training, showing, and breeding. That's what makes it exciting. 
I recall a recent thread about the ethics of breeding. In said thread, I was jumped on from all angles based on my decision to NOT show my breeding stock, and NOT stick to an element of the standard I felt was NOT in the breed's best interest and saw as ultimately damaging. Multiple members, including yourself, were very harsh in their replies to my ethics and practices. That is fine, I respect your opinion, but ultimately stood by my own. I do NOT feel that conformation titles, or ANY title for that matter, is worth sacrificing the well being of a dog in any degree for any amount of time, no matter how brief. 
Now, here you are, posting about a decision that you have made for your own dog, who will possibly be bred at some point down the line. Now you get a taste of what it feels like to be jumped on for what you feel like is the best interest of your breed. Many of us disagree. It's how the world works. You put a lot of merit into titles, and will go to certain degrees to obtain them. That's fine. If that's something you're passionate about, and honestly believe in, then surely some strong opposing opinions won't break your spine. 

If other people's opinions make you feel unwelcome here, then I'm sorry.... it is a very opinionated and blunt group. I make no apologies or what I believe in, nor for voicing them. It does not make you or myself unwelcome, but rather different. So, chin up, sweetheart, it's a harsh world out there. Welcome to the world of dog breeding and showing.


----------



## DaneMama (Jun 27, 2008)

BrownieM said:


> You have to understand that I am extremely allergic to dogs. While I can live with poodles with mild to moderate symptoms, it is not likely that I could ever spend the time necessary in a grooming section of a dog show, full of golden retrievers and labs, to be able to show my own dog. I am trying to do the best that I can with those limitations.


That sucks...could you not groom them elsewhere? Most of the shows I've been to have an outside area for that...

Overall, I guess I'm confused why you'd want to get a puppy that is meant for the show ring if all you would want in the long run is a family companion, which you possibly do agility with. You have said that you don't have much interest and have allergic limitations to being a handler which makes it pretty hard to accomplish showing your own dog. 

Why not get a family companion "valued" dog and do agility with it and skip all this showing business? It doesn't seem to me (based on what you've said thus far) like you care about the showing as long as he finishes quickly.


----------



## SilverBeat (Jan 16, 2011)

BrownieM said:


> The dog is going with a handler. IF he was not going with a handler, I likely could not have gotten a dog of this quality. Many breeders will not sell a poodle of this quality to a newbie because it is *that* hard to finish them. It doesn't matter what you think, silly or not, he is going with a handler. That has been decided for a long time and I have not come here to debate it. Really, it is a shameful thing you are doing, beating someone up about showing their dog with a handler who will take excellent care. At least I am trying to do something for the breed. Really, what is this fight worth to you? To make a stranger across the country feel bad?


It's human nature to question things that we don't understand. If you look back and take away your presumptions from the results of previous threads, you would see that Jon, Natalie, Linsey and the others were just asking because, like they said, they don't get it.


----------



## BrownieM (Aug 30, 2010)

PuppyPaws said:


> Making you feel unwelcome was not the intent. A lot of us simply do not understand why he must be sent away in the first place.
> 
> We have many differing opinions on this forum in regards to nutrition, training, showing, and breeding. That's what makes it exciting.
> I recall a recent thread about the ethics of breeding. In said thread, I was jumped on from all angles based on my decision to NOT show my breeding stock, and NOT stick to an element of the standard I felt was NOT in the breed's best interest and saw as ultimately damaging. Multiple members, including yourself, were very harsh in their replies to my ethics and practices. That is fine, I respect your opinion, but ultimately stood by my own. I do NOT feel that conformation titles, or ANY title for that matter, is worth sacrificing the well being of a dog in any degree for any amount of time, no matter how brief.
> ...


Agree or disagree with titles, it doesn't make sense to beat me down about it. I am not doing anything that will harm this breed!


----------



## jdatwood (Apr 13, 2009)

BrownieM said:


> Agree or disagree with titles, it doesn't make sense to beat me down about it. I am not doing anything that will harm this breed!


You're not being beat down. We're trying to understand why you want someone else to raise your PET for the sake of a beauty title

It's never been said you're doing anything to damage the breed?? You're reaching now...


----------



## CavePaws (Jan 25, 2011)

I still want to know why you can't package his food yourself and send it with him. I don't feel she is all that great of a handler if she is not willing to find a way to store a couple weeks worth of dog food for your dog. I am assuming you are paying her for this, am I correct?


----------



## BrownieM (Aug 30, 2010)

DaneMama said:


> That sucks...could you not groom them elsewhere? Most of the shows I've been to have an outside area for that...
> 
> Overall, I guess I'm confused why you'd want to get a puppy that is meant for the show ring if all you would want in the long run is a family companion, which you possibly do agility with. You have said that you don't have much interest and have allergic limitations to being a handler which makes it pretty hard to accomplish showing your own dog.
> 
> Why not get a family companion "valued" dog and do agility with it and skip all this showing business? It doesn't seem to me (based on what you've said thus far) like you care about the showing as long as he finishes quickly.


?? I already own this dog. He must be shown. I would like for him to be shown because I hope to contribute to the breed in some way. I know that you differ in your opinion on this, but I personally would never breed a dog that does not have a Ch. title. I can respect that you would, but in order for me to feel comfortable ever offering a dog to be bred, I need him to be finished.

I purchased this dog on an agreement that he will be finished.


----------



## CorgiPaws (Mar 31, 2009)

BrownieM said:


> Agree or disagree with titles, it doesn't make sense to beat me down about it. I am not doing anything that will harm this breed!


Agree or disagree with the dane color code, it doesn't make sense to beat me down about it. I am not doing anything that will harm this breed. 


BM: you're not getting what your point is. We are simply disagreeing with your descision- AND explaining why. I see no attacks being made. You posted about a controversial topic on a passionate, open forum. WHat did you expect? roses?


----------



## BrownieM (Aug 30, 2010)

CavePaws said:


> I still want to know why you can't package his food yourself and send it with him. I don't feel she is all that great of a handler if she is not willing to find a way to store a couple weeks worth of dog food for your dog. I am assuming you are paying her for this, am I correct?


Thank you, CavePaws. This is a good idea and I will ask if I can do this. Thank you, too, for not beating up on me, even if you disagree with me.


----------



## BrownieM (Aug 30, 2010)

PuppyPaws said:


> Agree or disagree with the dane color code, it doesn't make sense to beat me down about it. I am not doing anything that will harm this breed.
> 
> 
> BM: you're not getting what your point is. We are simply disagreeing with your descision- AND explaining why. I see no attacks being made. You posted about a controversial topic on a passionate, open forum. WHat did you expect? roses?


I was hoping for some empathy, and instead I get almost a dozen members attacking me because I will be sending my dog with a handler, and because I won't be showing him myself, and because I have to feed him kibble for 3 months of his life.

How would you feel?

I am following the grain of what is expected in the ethical breeding of poodles.


----------



## DaneMama (Jun 27, 2008)

BrownieM said:


> ?? I already own this dog. He must be shown. I would like for him to be shown because I hope to contribute to the breed in some way. I know that you differ in your opinion on this, but I personally would never breed a dog that does not have a Ch. title. I can respect that you would, but in order for me to feel comfortable ever offering a dog to be bred, I need him to be finished.
> 
> I purchased this dog on an agreement that he will be finished.


I get that you have already entered an agreement. I've just been trying to offer you advice on how to make your situation better all around, for you AND your dog  :frown:


----------



## BrownieM (Aug 30, 2010)

jdatwood said:


> You're not being beat down. We're trying to understand why you want someone else to raise your PET for the sake of a beauty title
> 
> It's never been said you're doing anything to damage the breed?? You're reaching now...


My point is that, so long as I am not doing anything to damage the breed, I see no reason to attack me on my showing decisions. So long as I do not plan to offer an unfit specimen for breeding, I see no reason to be so harsh on me.


----------



## CorgiPaws (Mar 31, 2009)

BrownieM said:


> ?? I already own this dog. He must be shown. I would like for him to be shown because I hope to contribute to the breed in some way. I know that you differ in your opinion on this, but I personally would never breed a dog that does not have a Ch. title. I can respect that you would, but in order for me to feel comfortable ever offering a dog to be bred, I need him to be finished.
> 
> I purchased this dog on an agreement that he will be finished.


And if he develops flaws as he matures?
Oh, nevermind, then you can just track down judges that judge based on personal preference rather than actual breed standard, or judges that overlook that flaw more than others. 
Ohh the wonderful world of dog showing. 
Where any dog can finish!


----------



## BrownieM (Aug 30, 2010)

DaneMama said:


> Why not get a family companion "valued" dog and do agility with it and skip all this showing business? It doesn't seem to me (based on what you've said thus far) like you care about the showing as long as he finishes quickly.


I was responding to this. I cannot skip the showing business and I do not wish to skip the showing business.


----------



## jdatwood (Apr 13, 2009)

BrownieM said:


> My point is that, so long as I am not doing anything to damage the breed, I see no reason to attack me on my showing decisions. So long as I do not plan to offer an unfit specimen for breeding, I see no reason to be so harsh on me.


I'm not attacking nor have I attacked you.

I'm sorry that my honest opinion is viewed as harsh. I'm a very blunt person but harsh...?

As I've stated quite a few times now, it just doesn't make sense.

What if it takes your dog 2 years to finish instead of the 3 months you're hoping for? How much $$ (and time with your PET) are you willing to sacrifice for a beauty pageant win?? (I'm curious... not "bashing")


----------



## BrownieM (Aug 30, 2010)

PuppyPaws said:


> And if he develops flaws as he matures?
> Oh, nevermind, then you can just track down judges that judge based on personal preference rather than actual breed standard, or judges that overlook that flaw more than others.
> Ohh the wonderful world of dog showing.
> Where any dog can finish!


He, and any dog, could develop structural issues in the future, and then his (hopeful) Ch. title would and should not override those.


----------



## CorgiPaws (Mar 31, 2009)

BrownieM said:


> I was hoping for some empathy, and instead I get almost a dozen members attacking me because I will be sending my dog with a handler, and because I won't be showing him myself, and because I have to feed him kibble for 3 months of his life.
> 
> How would you feel?
> 
> I am following the grain of what is expected in the ethical breeding of poodles.


Well, I'd probably feel about how I did when I got attacked for my decisions, which were also harmless to the breed as a whole. 
Granted, my opinions and practices also didn't compromise the well being of my own dogs, either... for any length of time. 

And how did I feel? frustrated, somewhat angry. Annoyed. And I thought most people were idiots for about 48 hours, if I'm being entirely honest. :biggrin:


----------



## DaneMama (Jun 27, 2008)

BrownieM said:


> I was hoping for some empathy, and instead I get almost a dozen members attacking me because I will be sending my dog with a handler, and because I won't be showing him myself, and because I have to feed him kibble for 3 months of his life.
> 
> How would you feel?
> 
> I am following the grain of what is expected in the ethical breeding of poodles.


Thats not really how it went down. Several people gave you advice about how to make the situation better. I never once attacked you in this thread or any other. I will shut this thread down once it does get to the point of attacks. 

The problem YOU presented to these boards REVOLVES around you sending your dog with a handler. Firstly, we wanted to know why you'd do this if this is in fact the SOURCE of your problem. Secondly, you were presented with the idea of getting rid of the handler and doing the work yourself. Which now we know is a bit of a hardship on you since you have bad allergies, you want him finished ASAP which requires you to use a handler.


----------



## CavePaws (Jan 25, 2011)

I have a co-worker who sent her Rhodesian Ridgeback to a well known handler as apparently she was having trouble having the dog finished by other less experienced handlers - the dog was finished extremely quickly after being sent to this well known handler. Of course, she feeds kibble so I'm sure this was a much easier decision for her to make. I hope your dog is finished quickly AND is able to eat food you would have him eat if he were with you.


----------



## stajbs (Jun 5, 2010)

BrownieM,

In the show world plenty of dogs get their championship title who never should. Judging is subjective, totally up to a judges interpretation of the breed standard, and what is "in for the breed" at that time. Shoot often times the particular judge who is judging your breed is not all that familiar with the breeds standard. That is why for example, a lot of pretty and flashy siberians get their CH before their name. Stick them in a harness and they can't do what they were bred and created to do initially. No dog is perfect and totally meets a breed standard or at least this is my understanding of why people continue to breed to improve some portion of how a dog is put together conformationally. 

Again, just trying to understand, not trying to be attacking here. I don't even feed raw, I cook and feed 95% canned to our dogs.


----------



## BrownieM (Aug 30, 2010)

jdatwood said:


> I'm not attacking nor have I attacked you.
> 
> I'm sorry that my honest opinion is viewed as harsh. I'm a very blunt person but harsh...?
> 
> ...


The chances of this dog taking 3 years to finish with someone who knows how to handle properly are slim to none. But, in that event, the breeder would re-assess the dog. I would not finish a dog that is not structurally correct. The point, for me, is to prove just how GREAT the dog actually is.


----------



## Caty M (Aug 13, 2010)

Sometimes people on pet forums can be so judgmental about something that wasn't even being debated. It's her dog, it's her decision. I guarantee the dog will be well taken care of. Feeding Acana is better food than the majority of people feed. Seriously guys.. she isn't drowning live puppies.. she's sending a dog off for a few months so he can be shown/titled and eventually bred. It's nice to see a potential breeder who cares as much as she does about her breed.

You guys are being ridiculous!

By the way, I have no interest in ever showing.. not my thing. But you guys are blowing this out of proportion and being rather cruel.


----------



## jdatwood (Apr 13, 2009)

BrownieM said:


> The point, for me, is to prove just how *PRETTY* the dog actually is.


Fixed it for you...

Sorry, you'll never convince me that a beauty title earned in front of the right judges makes your dog any better than the one that didn't get the title. It's ALL based on PERSONAL OPINION of a judge


----------



## BrownieM (Aug 30, 2010)

stajbs said:


> BrownieM,
> 
> In the show world plenty of dogs get their championship title who never should. Judging is subjective, totally up to a judges interpretation of the breed standard, and what is "in for the breed" at that time. Shoot often times the particular judge who is judging your breed is not all that familiar with the breeds standard. That is why for example, a lot of pretty and flashy siberians get their CH before their name. Stick them in a harness and they can't do what they were bred and created to do initially. No dog is perfect and totally meets a breed standard or at least this is my understanding of why people continue to breed to improve some portion of how a dog is put together conformationally.
> 
> Again, just trying to understand, not trying to be attacking here. I don't even feed raw, I cook and feed 95% canned to our dogs.


Oh, trust me, I agree. I see poodles shaved down after they win and it is clear that their large coat was hiding horrendous flaws. But, based on his current structure, this dog actually is of the quality in which he *should* win. He truly does meet the breed standard. If he attains his Ch., it will not be because he is covered in coat that is hiding flaws. He actually has amazing structure.


----------



## BrownieM (Aug 30, 2010)

jdatwood said:


> Fixed it for you...
> 
> Sorry, you'll never convince me that a beauty title earned in front of the right judges makes your dog any better than the one that didn't get the title. It's ALL based on PERSONAL OPINION of a judge


Putting words in my mouth? I want to show off this dog because he DESERVES to win. He is pretty, yes, but he is also structurally sound, has a fabulous personality and temperament, and a diverse pedigree. So what if I want to show my dog? What is it to you?


----------



## luvMyBRT (Mar 8, 2010)

No hard feelings. I just couldn't understand why you wouldn't want to show your own dog. I went into things with Duncan wanting to learn about showing and to be his handler. Getting his CH would be my accomplishment just as much as it was his. 

I think I posted my response before learning about your allergies....which would play a role in what you can do. But, like Natalie said, don't shows have some grooming areas which could be outside? Or groom him before you arrived? Not sure.....


----------



## jdatwood (Apr 13, 2009)

BrownieM said:


> Putting words in my mouth? I want to show off this dog because he DESERVES to win. He is pretty, yes, but he is also structurally sound, has a fabulous personality and temperament, and a diverse pedigree. So what if I want to show my dog? What is it to you?


Meh, whatever BM... I'm done. You want to spin things into an attack even if they're not.

Good luck with your handler. I hope your beauty queen wins the title quickly so you can raise it how you feel best. I honestly think you have the best intentions, I just couldn't make those same sacrifices for the sake of a piece of paper.


----------



## CorgiPaws (Mar 31, 2009)

bishopthesheltie said:


> Sometimes people on pet forums can be so judgmental about something that wasn't even being debated. It's her dog, it's her decision. I guarantee the dog will be well taken care of. Feeding Acana is better food than the majority of people feed. Seriously guys.. she isn't drowning live puppies.. she's sending a dog off for a few months so he can be shown/titled and eventually bred. It's nice to see a potential breeder who cares as much as she does about her breed.
> 
> You guys are being ridiculous!
> 
> By the way, I have no interest in ever showing.. not my thing. But you guys are blowing this out of proportion and being rather cruel.


Again, I have yet to see anyone actually attack. SImple opinions are stated, and defended, but I see NO ONE saying that BM is a bad owner, nor that she is harming her breed. I also see a lot of reasonable suggestions being given to better the situation. I asked several questions in my first response, to be able to give meaningful suggestions, but they were dodged. No big deal, really.
WHat were we supposed to respond with? emoticons of llamas? It's a forum for crying out lot, people respond with their thoughts, no matter what they might be!

I feel it's silly I even NEED to point this out, but *I harbor no hard feelings*, not after this thread, nor the one in which I was spoken against in the SAME manner as the OP... BY the OP...


----------



## Mokapi (Apr 7, 2011)

bishopthesheltie said:


> Sometimes people on pet forums can be so judgmental about something that wasn't even being debated. It's her dog, it's her decision. I guarantee the dog will be well taken care of. Feeding Acana is better food than the majority of people feed. Seriously guys.. she isn't drowning live puppies.. she's sending a dog off for a few months so he can be shown/titled and eventually bred. It's nice to see a potential breeder who cares as much as she does about her breed.
> 
> You guys are being ridiculous!
> 
> By the way, I have no interest in ever showing.. not my thing. But you guys are blowing this out of proportion and being rather cruel.


No joke- there have been a lot of seriously snide comments that seemed pretty unnecessary. 

The risk of anaphylactic shock- always a concern with someone with allergies- far outweighs the puppy not being able to be fed raw for a few months. Not showing him is not an option. 

I really hope nobody here ever encounters personal issues that force you to temporarily place your dogs in someone else's care where raw feeding may not be an option. 

I'd personally pre-package his raw food. I hope he finishes soon


----------



## BrownieM (Aug 30, 2010)

DaneMama said:


> Thats not really how it went down. Several people gave you advice about how to make the situation better. I never once attacked you in this thread or any other. I will shut this thread down once it does get to the point of attacks.
> 
> The problem YOU presented to these boards REVOLVES around you sending your dog with a handler. Firstly, we wanted to know why you'd do this if this is in fact the SOURCE of your problem. Secondly, you were presented with the idea of getting rid of the handler and doing the work yourself. Which now we know is a bit of a hardship on you since you have bad allergies, you want him finished ASAP which requires you to use a handler.


I'd like him finished ASAP because it will allow him to live a normal live sooner. A poodle in show coat simply cannot rough and tumble with other dogs. Their neck hair must be protected. Again, I don't expect you to understand or agree with this, but it is what happens in the world of showing poodles. The sooner my dog is finished, the sooner he can be a DOG.


----------



## Caty M (Aug 13, 2010)

I don't know anything about the show world. Heck, I can't even tell a spoo from a doodle half the time. But I do believe that dogs should be bred towards the breed standard.. but not compromising health. It's not a beauty pageant.. Dogs should absolutely be bred towards the breed standard. She is doing everything right. I hope your breeder allows you to send in prepackaged meals for him. Good luck in his titling. He's a cutie.


----------



## jdatwood (Apr 13, 2009)

Mokapi said:


> I really hope nobody here ever encounters personal issues that force you to temporarily place your dogs in someone else's care where raw feeding may not be an option.


Sorry, wouldn't happen.



bishopthesheltie said:


> Dogs should absolutely be bred towards the breed standard.


Like German Shepherds right? *sigh*


----------



## BrownieM (Aug 30, 2010)

luvMyBRT said:


> No hard feelings. I just couldn't understand why you wouldn't want to show your own dog. I went into things with Duncan wanting to learn about showing and to be his handler. Getting his CH would be my accomplishment just as much as it was his.
> 
> I think I posted my response before learning about your allergies....which would play a role in what you can do. But, like Natalie said, don't shows have some grooming areas which could be outside? Or groom him before you arrived? Not sure.....


Every show I have been to is inside with grooming areas inside. There could be some shows with grooming areas outside, I'm not sure.


----------



## BrownieM (Aug 30, 2010)

PuppyPaws said:


> Again, I have yet to see anyone actually attack. SImple opinions are stated, and defended, but I see NO ONE saying that BM is a bad owner, nor that she is harming her breed. I also see a lot of reasonable suggestions being given to better the situation. I asked several questions in my first response, to be able to give meaningful suggestions, but they were dodged. No big deal, really.
> WHat were we supposed to respond with? emoticons of llamas? It's a forum for crying out lot, people respond with their thoughts, no matter what they might be!
> 
> I feel it's silly I even NEED to point this out, but *I harbor no hard feelings*, not after this thread, nor the one in which I was spoken against in the SAME manner as the OP... BY the OP...


I didn't even realize I skipped over questions that you asked - it was unintentional. I will go back and look for them.


----------



## DaneMama (Jun 27, 2008)

BrownieM said:


> I'd like him finished ASAP because it will allow him to live a normal live sooner. A poodle in show coat simply cannot rough and tumble with other dogs. Their neck hair must be protected. Again, I don't expect you to understand or agree with this, but it is what happens in the world of showing poodles. The sooner my dog is finished, the sooner he can be a DOG.


I just don't understand why its important to show a dog but not let them be a DOG that lives a normal life first and foremost. Doesn't seem fair....you'd think that the big poofy show coats would go out of style with people wanting their dogs to live normal, happy lives but still wanting to show their dogs. How did this big poofy hair dog come about and why is it important to showing poodles?


----------



## Caty M (Aug 13, 2010)

I said, WITHOUT COMPRIMISING HEALTH, Jdatwood.. As far as I know, the structure of poodles still allows them a full range of movement. I do NOT support breeding dogs like bulldogs, GSDs, heck even Cavaliers with their horrible health problems.


----------



## BrownieM (Aug 30, 2010)

DaneMama said:


> I just don't understand why its important to show a dog but not let them be a DOG that lives a normal life first and foremost. Doesn't seem fair....you'd think that the big poofy show coats would go out of style with people wanting their dogs to live normal, happy lives but still wanting to show their dogs. How did this big poofy hair dog come about and why is it important to showing poodles?


The hairstyle in which poodles are shown is an exaggerated representation of the clip that they originally sported as water retrievers. I'd like it if poodles could be shown shaved down, but they cannot.


----------



## Mokapi (Apr 7, 2011)

jdatwood said:


> Sorry, wouldn't happen.


I also didn't think a massive tsunami would annihilate Japan, or that my neighbor's house would burn down. 

You can act like you're high and mighty because you'd NEVER have to have someone else take care of your animals for an extended period of time or you'd NEVER not be able to feed raw, but...you NEVER know. Think before you judge people on personal things to the point where it's ridiculous.


----------



## Caty M (Aug 13, 2010)

bishopthesheltie said:


> But I do believe that dogs should be bred towards the breed standard.. but not compromising health.


Please read my posts properly before making a wrong judgment about me. THanks.


----------



## BrownieM (Aug 30, 2010)

PuppyPaws said:


> That sucks, I don't think I could tolerate compromising my dog's nutrition for show. Did you talk to the handler about feeding raw? Why can they not do it? I'd be pretty uncomfortable putting my dogs in the care of someone who can not take proper care of them, diet included. They won't even feed a commercial raw while they have them? Why do they have these limitations?
> Best of luck, you must be a stronger person than I am, I don't think I could fathom sending mine away for those periods of time. I am sure glad I won't be sending my Danes away!!


I'm fairly certain I already answered these questions, but you think that I didn't, so I'll answer them again.

I have not talked to the handler about feeding raw, but I know someone who has a dog with that handler. The handler will not feed a homemade raw, but will feed a commercial raw. They may or may not feed a prepacked, ground raw, that I create. I will have to ask.

They cannot feed the diet that I currently feed because it would be impractical. A simple, commercial diet is the only practical way for a handler to feed my dog while it is in their possession.

They will feed a commercial diet. There are no limitations.


----------



## jdatwood (Apr 13, 2009)

bishopthesheltie said:


> I said, WITHOUT COMPRIMISING HEALTH, Jdatwood.. As far as I know, the structure of poodles still allows them a full range of movement. I do NOT support breeding dogs like bulldogs, GSDs, heck even Cavaliers with their horrible health problems.


That's great to hear. You do see my point that the "standard" may not be in the best interest of a breed


----------



## jdatwood (Apr 13, 2009)

Mokapi said:


> You can act like you're high and mighty


EXCUSE ME?? 



Mokapi said:


> Think before you judge people on personal things to the point where it's ridiculous.


Please show me where I judged someone?


----------



## CorgiPaws (Mar 31, 2009)

BM: Good luck in the ring. I *honestly* hope he finishes quickly, so he can be back with you. I know you take good care of your dogs. 
_While I will never understand the compromises made for the sake of show_, I commend you in your effort to adhere to breed standard and better the breed you are so passionate about. 
DO understand that the world you are diving into is a very controversial one. One in which this is just the tip of the iceberg of passionate opposing responses you will receive. You must believe firmly is the choices you make, and be able to stand your ground without wavering, or it can eat you alive. I've had my share of angry emails, angry conversations, and even being turned away as a foster home because of my decisions involving breeding. Does it suck? Absolutely it does, but your passion for what you're doing, and your faith in your standards and beliefs MUST outweigh the consideration you give to opposition. 
My apologies if my opinion was taken as an attack. That is not how it was intended. I do, however, stand by my words and beliefs, something I'm certain you understand. 
:smile:


----------



## Caty M (Aug 13, 2010)

As I said, I agree with breeding to breed standard without comprimising health. I think that the plight of GSDs is terrible. They can't work, they can barely walk properly. I believe in preserving breeds and the only way you can do that properly is breeding to a standard.. which has to be judged in some way. I do think that the process is a bit wearing and long. 

Poodles do not have any structural problems in their breed standard.. she is doing the right thing by showing and then health testing..


----------



## DaneMama (Jun 27, 2008)

BrownieM said:


> The hairstyle in which poodles are shown is an exaggerated representation of the clip that they originally sported as water retrievers. I'd like it if poodles could be shown shaved down, but they cannot.


Why not try and change the show standard to help the breed? 

If the exaggerated show coats allow some dogs to hide their flaws but still win...it seems like changing the standard would be a better move for the breed as a whole. Not only would it eliminate these "cheaters" but it would also allow show dogs to live normal, happy lives like a dog should. 



Mokapi said:


> I also didn't think a massive tsunami would annihilate Japan, or that my neighbor's house would burn down.
> 
> You can act like you're high and mighty because you'd NEVER have to have someone else take care of your animals for an extended period of time or you'd NEVER not be able to feed raw, but...you NEVER know. Think before you judge people on personal things to the point where it's ridiculous.


I think comparing these situations to the problem BM is having with her handler is a bit over the top. BM is choosing to send her dog with the handler, she isn't forced to do so. She could continue to feed the dog raw either by showing the dog herself (which has been established she wont) OR finding a new handler that WILL feed her dog to her specifications. 

I'd like to think that if anything happened to Jon and I both that our dogs would be taken care of by someone who would feed raw. In fact that is something that I am going to focus on ASAP just in case :thumb:


----------



## jdatwood (Apr 13, 2009)

PuppyPaws said:


> BM: Good luck in the ring.
> 
> I know you take good care of your dogs.
> 
> ...


My sentiments EXACTLY


----------



## Mokapi (Apr 7, 2011)

jdatwood said:


> EXCUSE ME??
> 
> 
> 
> Please show me where I judged someone?


"Excuse me"...yeah, "sorry, wouldn't happen" implies you somehow know that nothing unfortunate will ever happen to you, which you don't know and therefore shouldn't be acting like this is never an issue you would have to encounter and therefore you don't need to try and put yourself in her shoes. The way this entire thread is being handled also shows a complete lack of being able to see past one's own nose- and that you feel that you are raising your dogs in a more superior fashion because you don't show and therefore don't have to ever have your dogs away from you. That, to me, is acting high and mighty/on a high horse/pick your phrase.

Despite the obvious biases on this forum, showing/not showing and feeding raw/not feeding raw doesn't decide superiority in dog owning. Is it not good enough that the puppy will be going to a good home with an owner that has a passion for its breed and wants to do right by her dog once it is a feasible option?


----------



## CorgiPaws (Mar 31, 2009)

DaneMama said:


> I'd like to think that if anything happened to Jon and I both that our dogs would be taken care of by someone who would feed raw. In fact that is something that I am going to focus on ASAP just in case :thumb:


You got it, dude. :wink:


----------



## BrownieM (Aug 30, 2010)

DaneMama said:


> Why not try and change the show standard to help the breed?
> 
> If the exaggerated show coats allow some dogs to hide their flaws but still win...it seems like changing the standard would be a better move for the breed as a whole. Not only would it eliminate these "cheaters" but it would also allow show dogs to live normal, happy lives like a dog should.
> 
> ...


Please, let me know if you know of a handler in my area that will feed the current diet that I feed to my dogs. From the research that I have done, there are none. I have found the most trustworthy handler who is willing to feed premade, commercial raw. I can't afford this. Perhaps she would be willing to feed pre-made raw of my creation, too.

I'd love to show a dog on my own in the future. Of course, that is ideal! Not sure if that is in the cards due to allergies, but we'll see, down the road. Perhaps I can try to get some of the single points on him while he shows. This may not be possible, though.


----------



## jdatwood (Apr 13, 2009)

Mokapi said:


> "Excuse me"...yeah, "sorry, wouldn't happen" implies you somehow know that nothing unfortunate will ever happen to you, which you don't know and therefore shouldn't be acting like this is never an issue you would have to encounter and therefore you don't need to try and put yourself in her shoes.


It "implies" that I'll make sure that no matter what happens to Natalie or I our dogs will continue to be raised in the manner which we feel best.

Unless everyone we select gets "raptured" I can say with almost 100% certainty that our dogs would continue being raised as we do so today


----------



## DaneMama (Jun 27, 2008)

PuppyPaws said:


> You got it, dude. :wink:


Haha...I knew I could count on you LOL

You ready for 6 more????


----------



## Mokapi (Apr 7, 2011)

DaneMama said:


> I think comparing these situations to the problem BM is having with her handler is a bit over the top. BM is choosing to send her dog with the handler, she isn't forced to do so. She could continue to feed the dog raw either by showing the dog herself (which has been established she wont) OR finding a new handler that WILL feed her dog to her specifications.
> 
> I'd like to think that if anything happened to Jon and I both that our dogs would be taken care of by someone who would feed raw. In fact that is something that I am going to focus on ASAP just in case :thumb:


I'm under the impression she also CANNOT (not just she "won't") because of health limitations on her part.

Over the top, sure, but so is assuming you know your own fate. Finding those people now is probably a great idea  Considering I live in tornado alley and every storm brings the chance of my home being lost, I have a list of 5 separate people that I know would take in my boys and feed them the way I like.


----------



## jdatwood (Apr 13, 2009)

BrownieM said:


> Perhaps she would be willing to feed pre-made raw of my creation, too.
> 
> I'd love to show a dog on my own in the future. Of course, that is ideal! Not sure if that is in the cards due to allergies, but we'll see, down the road. Perhaps I can try to get some of the single points on him while he shows. This may not be possible, though.


That would be awesome if she is! <fingers crossed>

We have a friend that owns a show Dane. She raises her Dane day to day and then the "handler" takes over on show days. Is this not an option?


----------



## BrownieM (Aug 30, 2010)

jdatwood said:


> That would be awesome is she is! <fingers crossed>
> 
> We have a friend that owns a show Dane. She raises her Dane day to day and then the "handler" takes over on show days. Is this not an option?


It may not be possible as the handler lives 120 miles from me. We have not decided our plan, yet. There is always the possiblity that I can keep him in between shows, or maybe he would only go for 1-2 weeks at a time, but this has not been discussed yet.

I am just planning for the worst. Assuming he will be gone and I must do the best I can in that situation.


----------



## jdatwood (Apr 13, 2009)

BrownieM said:


> I am just planning for the worst. Assuming he will be gone and I must do the best I can in that situation.


That's all you can do :wink: Work for the best but assume the worst

Personally I'd go out of my way to raise my dog personally and even if it meant 4-6 hours of driving to shows (both ways) I personally would happily welcome the drive every week or two :biggrin:


----------



## DaneMama (Jun 27, 2008)

Mokapi said:


> I'm under the impression she also CANNOT (not just she "won't") because of health limitations on her part.
> 
> Over the top, sure, but so is assuming you know your own fate. Finding those people now is probably a great idea  Considering I live in tornado alley and every storm brings the chance of my home being lost, I have a list of 5 separate people that I know would take in my boys and feed them the way I like.


Apparently the best person I know for the job is up to the task :thumb: :wink: :biggrin:


----------



## DaneMama (Jun 27, 2008)

jdatwood said:


> That's all you can do :wink: Work for the best but assume the worst
> 
> Personally I'd go out of my way to raise my dog personally and even if it meant 4-6 hours of driving to shows (both ways) I personally would happily welcome the drive every week or two :biggrin:


And you could even coordinate transports for rescue groups with your driving to and from places. Sometimes they pay for your gas :thumb:


----------



## CavePaws (Jan 25, 2011)

jdatwood said:


> That's all you can do :wink: Work for the best but assume the worst
> 
> Personally I'd go out of my way to raise my dog personally and even if it meant 4-6 hours of driving to shows (both ways) I personally would happily welcome the drive every week or two :biggrin:


I know so many agility trainers who do this, EVERY weekend. I envy them as I cannot afford to pay for the cost of competing every weekend with my dog and traveling all over the states! I would if I could in a heartbeat. It's a dream of mine!

BrownieM I certainly hope that you can get this worked out with her. I have absolutely no earthly idea why she would shut you down on the pre-ground raw. It would be far more easy for her to store. Perhaps she will give him a few recreational bones for his teeth. I just don't see why she wouldn't go above and beyond to give these dogs that people care so much about the best replicate of what they would receive as care at home - so long as it is morally within reason(no beatings!)


----------



## whiteleo (Sep 7, 2008)

BrownieM I think you are making the right decision as to having a well known experienced handler show your dog especially if you want him to finish his points quickly.

The dog show world is just as much about who knows who and who is showing your dog as anything else.
He will survive on Acana, this is my favorite kibble when and if I have to feed a kibble, you can always give Beef ribs for his teeth to help with the tarter build up.

Good Luck and I hope he finishes quickly and your nerves don't get you watching from the sidelines!


----------



## bernadettelevis (Feb 2, 2011)

I'M sorry i only saw this so late, buti also don't understand it... not only because of the raw feeding but i couldn't give my dog away..

I had a similar situation with my horse! I bought him when he was 1 year old. He's going to compete in show jumping and he's a pretty good horse form what you could tell at that age. He's still a stallion not the easiest horse. So i do have a lot of experience with "difficult" horses, but i never trained a horse from the beginning. Many people said i should send him to a professionalbecause i cannot handle him. Well i didn't send him away. I have a friend who works a lot with young horses, come every other week to tell me what to do and what not and to make sure i don'T screw him up 

So when he was three I kind of "showed" him. I don'T know what you call it in english but it is like showing the stallions and seeing if they are potential breeding material! He was pretty good and over all was 2nd best in his age group! So they offered me to take him for 3-4 months and finish him. Don'T ask me why, but they said that there is no possibility i coulddo it my self :/ so i didn'T do it! If i did it i could probably earn some money now by breeding him, but it's not worth it.

Overall, i think i did the right thing! As much as i love horses and show jumping, it is still a hobby. I made the decision not to make it my job. So what'S the point of sending my horse away for so long? I just couldn't do it. And for me the dog is even more a family member so i could never send him to live with someone else! Hack, it was even hard for me when i went to australia for a month to visit family there, to leave him with my parents .

But that's just my opinion, and i wish you luck that everything works out for you and your dog


----------



## Dude and Bucks Mamma (May 14, 2011)

I have to say that I am shocked at some of the statements in this thread. The comments that got to me were the ones about shows being "beauty pageants" and how you "wouldn't subject your dog" to being a show dog. I can't speak for everyone in the show world, but I show my dogs and THEY tell me if they want to do it or not. I have always bought show dogs from show breeders (my Bluetick pup is my new one) and I show them. However, when we are in the ring, I pay attention to him. If he is showing me that he has no interest, I will take him to shows for a month or two as pups and if they don't gain any more interest, they just become pets. I have had a few who just decided they had no interest in it, but all the other I had in the ring couldn't WAIT until show day. They would see me packing up our stuff and would just light up with excitement. They gave their all to the ring just like other dogs give their all in agility and tracking, etc. 

Yes, judges can tend to be a bit biased sometimes, but that's why I stick to hardcore working dogs. Dogs like the coonhounds tend to still be judged on their actual conformation and attitude and the dog that wins is always the coonhound that shows the strongest coonhound traits. I don't show the flashy breeds because I do agree that some judges tend to ignore some faults. That is the advantage to coonhounds 

What I do not agree on though is not owner handling. I can see why, in her case, Tiger is going to be shown by someone else who will finish him quickly. The way I am seeing it, if SHE owner handles the dog, the dog will have to stay in show coat longer and will not be able to be a dog. On the other hand, if he is handled by a professional, he will be finished MUCH quicker and will be able to come home, be shaved down and will be able to romp and roughhouse like any other dog. She can also not opt out of showing this dog.

Just because we show, it does not mean we do not care about our dogs. To those who show, titles are not JUST a piece of paper. They are pieces of paper that say your dog is a dog worthy of being bred. To those who don't, they may just be a piece of paper to you and that's fine. In my eyes, not showing a dog you do not intend to breed does not make you any less of a pet owner. If a dog is going to be bred, it should be shown. Not all judges are biased. Dogs aren't titled solely by biased judges. If we could eliminate the breeding of untitled dogs, we may be able to eliminate other faults. No, no dog is perfect, but we try to breed (I am not a breeder) the best possible and we want our best dogs' litter to be even better than their parents are. Dogs are not judged on how PRETTY they are. They are judged on how well built and put together they are as well as temperament. 

Here is my issue. A few people on here have made it sound like those of us who show our dogs are being awful pet owners by "subjecting" our dogs to it. Again, my DOGS tell ME if they want to show or not. Again, I understand that not all owners work that way, but a lot of us do. I would not tell you that you are a lesser dog owner because you are NOT showing your dog. Show owners should not be told that they are. It may not have been said outright in this thread, but it has been strongly implied. 

That being said, while I could never send my dog away for it (I will only owner handle, but I show short haired, from field to ring breeds with the Bluetick being my favorite), I understand that you want to own him outright and this is the quickest way to do that. I agree with those who said to ask your handler if she would be willing to feed Tiger prepackaged raw meals that you supply. Maybe she would be willing to do it for an extra fee, although I don't see what is so hard about thawing out some meat, especially if you already have every meal packaged up for her.


----------



## meggels (May 30, 2010)

bishopthesheltie said:


> Sometimes people on pet forums can be so judgmental about something that wasn't even being debated. It's her dog, it's her decision. I guarantee the dog will be well taken care of. Feeding Acana is better food than the majority of people feed. Seriously guys.. she isn't drowning live puppies.. she's sending a dog off for a few months so he can be shown/titled and eventually bred. It's nice to see a potential breeder who cares as much as she does about her breed.
> 
> You guys are being ridiculous!
> 
> By the way, I have no interest in ever showing.. not my thing. But you guys are blowing this out of proportion and being rather cruel.


Agreed. 

Brownie, I understand and I think you are doing the right thing. Good luck.


----------



## SpooOwner (Oct 1, 2010)

It sucks that you have to be without your puppy for so long, and that he'll have to eat a commercial food while with the handler. I hope he finishes quickly and comes home soon.


----------



## Northwoods10 (Nov 22, 2010)

Well, I'm late to the party, as usual! :wink:

Here's the thing. The utmost important thing for my dogs is their HEALTH. It is a lifestyle we believe in and practice, and I'll be damned if that has to change for a show. 

Simply put, if I couldn't feed raw, I wouldn't be sending my dog off to a show. Thats just me. 

Secondly, I would never sign up for a dog that I couldn't show & compete with myself. What happened to the owners showing their own dogs? Where's the pride in that? I understand that you want him to finish quickly, but I, along with most everyone else, don't understand why you would ever get a dog that you can't show yourself, or feed what you are so true to while its gone? 

Maybe its the competitive side of me, but it would just seem like a piece of paper to me if I sent my dog off with someone else to be shown in the ring because they "know what they're doing". 

When I take in a dog, whether it be a runt (Nallah), a rescue (Morgan), or a dog with champion lines (Remi).......the first thing that I will provide for them is a happy, healthy, and fun lifestyle. I compete in dog sports with all of my dogs, and sure, I could send them all off to training and have somebody else compete with them to "better" themselves.......but they are MY pride and joy, MY dogs, and I will feed and take care of MY dogs, MYself and under MY beliefs. And if that means I don't have a top quailty show dog......thats fine. 

I think what we are all not understanding is why are you willing to sacrifice your own beliefs for this dog to gain a title? Maybe that should have been thought of before you purchased him. 

I want to wish you the best of luck with him, He is gorgeous and he probably does have huge potential. Its just not something I would ever do.

ETA: We travel all over the country doing dock dogs in the summer, I package raw ahead of time for ease. It can be done. I've never been gone for months at a time, but I am sure you could devote a day to preparing meals ahead of time and sending them along with him.


----------



## BrownieM (Aug 30, 2010)

Northwoods10 said:


> Well, I'm late to the party, as usual! :wink:
> 
> Here's the thing. The utmost important thing for my dogs is their HEALTH. It is a lifestyle we believe in and practice, and I'll be damned if that has to change for a show.
> 
> ...


Yep, and again, I'd love to owner handle him or any other poodle. Perhaps in the future, depending on my allergies. Maybe with enough exposure, I will be able to tolerate being around so many dogs being groomed at some point. Also, I hope that through Tiger's career, I will learn how to do all of the scissoring

It will be hard for him to be gone for a few weeks at a time, but *trust me* - it could be worse. I won't have to _constantly_ separate him from Millie and Henry while he is gone to protect his coat. In the long run, he will be happiest because he will a DOG sooner than later because he will finish quicker. 

Also, I DO hope that I can have the opportunity to put some of his single points on him. I am preparing for the worst - which is that he will go to the handler for several weeks. It very well could end up quite differently. 

And, while I think that raw is best, I don't see a high quality kibble as "sacrificing my pet's nutrition." He will still be healthy and he will eat raw for the rest of his life when he is done showing. I guess the difference between me and the majority is that I don't believe feeding high quality kibble to be sacrificing my dog's nutrition and health. I see it as less than ideal, but still healthy.

Also, addressing your statement of me sacrificing my beliefs: I *did* know before I got him that he would likely have to eat kibble with the handler as I cannot afford commercial raw. I am not sacrificing any "beliefs" as I consider high quality kibble to be a decent choice. Unlike many here, I don't think that *anybody* is depriving their dog by feeding high quality kibble, especially if it is for only a short time!

I eat fast food several times a week - am I still healthy? You bet! Thin and healthy! I exercise, don't smoke, take care of myself, aside from not paying much attention to what I eat. Would it be better if I ate baked salmon and veggies? Totally! But I just don't have time!


----------



## Northwoods10 (Nov 22, 2010)

BrownieM said:


> Yep, and again, I'd love to owner handle him or any other poodle. Perhaps in the future, depending on my allergies. Maybe with enough exposure, I will be able to tolerate being around so many dogs being groomed at some point. Also, I hope that through Tiger's career, I will learn how to do all of the scissoring
> 
> It will be hard for him to be gone for a few weeks at a time, but *trust me* - it could be worse. I won't have to _constantly_ separate him from Millie and Henry while he is gone to protect his coat. In the long run, he will be happiest because he will a DOG sooner than later because he will finish quicker.
> 
> ...


I personally never said it was sacrificing your dogs health. I just think that if it were my dog, and I chose to send it off to the show world, raw would be a priority. No matter how much work it was for me OR the person taking care of him.


----------



## BrownieM (Aug 30, 2010)

Northwoods10 said:


> I personally never said it was sacrificing your dogs health. I just think that if it were my dog, and I chose to send it off to the show world, raw would be a priority. No matter how much work it was for me OR the person taking care of him.


Wonderful idea theoretically, but I simply don't have the money to pay for commercial raw. I have to be practical. I am not going to drain my entire bank account to keep my dog from having to eat a very high quality kibble for a few months.


----------



## Caty M (Aug 13, 2010)

Are your allergies really bad? Can they be controlled with medications? I don't know much about allergies since the only thing I am allergic to is avocados, and those are pretty easy to avoid.. hehe.

Maybe send along some llama legs or beef ribs and ask the handler if maybe twice a week she can pop one out of the freezer and give it to him, just for his teeth.

Can they not play with other dogs when they are showing??...


----------



## BrownieM (Aug 30, 2010)

bishopthesheltie said:


> Are your allergies really bad? Can they be controlled with medications? I don't know much about allergies since the only thing I am allergic to is avocados, and those are pretty easy to avoid.. hehe.
> 
> Maybe send along some llama legs or beef ribs and ask the handler if maybe twice a week she can pop one out of the freezer and give it to him, just for his teeth.
> 
> Can they not play with other dogs when they are showing??...


Oh my goodness...my allergies. Let's say I have an inhaler, eye drops, steroid nose spray and allergy pills and I still start wheezing badly in the presence of most dog breeds. With three dogs in my house right now, my allergies are only bothering me mildly with all of these medications. With the poodles, I believe it is more of the grass they run around in that bothers my allergies, as they do have much less dander than most breeds. I can handle mild to moderate symptoms, because it is worth it to have dogs. However, I really do have to limit exposure. For example, I had to stop indoor puppy classes with Millie when she was a pup because I was wheezing so badly. 

Re: playing and showing, there can be no neck biting, because they must have 10-12 inches of neck hair (as an adult). I do hope that he will be finished before going into his adult clip, but that depends on whether or not he hits those majors. Anyway, even in puppy clip, his neck hair is precious gold and therefore rough play that involves neck biting (which Millie does constantly) is not okay. It's one of the biggest bummers of showing poodles, and this is my very first experience with it. 

I am really just dipping my feet into the show world, seeing how it goes, seeing how I like it. If I end up being able to show him myself, that's fabulous! But he will be finished regardless, most likely with a handler. Because he has potential to finish as a puppy, that is HUGE! That means that he could potentially never have to be in the continental clip, which DOES require a foot of neck hair, extensive banding and wrapping of coat, etc. It is unlikely that I could finish him as a puppy, which means he would definitely have to go into a continental clip and extensive coat care and protection would be required. I'm just not sure that I am up for that, so I am willing to send him with a handler in hopes that he will finish faster. 

Then, once he is finished, I could always decide that I want to show him a few times myself for practice. I would have no strings attached, I could shave him down at anytime, feed him whatever diet I choose, and have the practice for any future dog I choose to show. Then, perhaps I could owner handle in the future. 

All in all, by starting out with a dog that is not merely "finishable", but actually has *superior* structure, I am able to start off on the right foot, see if showing is even for me. If it is for me, I might consider a bitch in the future, (who WOULD take much longer to finish - as bitches do), possibly show her myself (depending on the allergy situation - this really is an issue), maybe even make her my foundation bitch. Of course, this is all hypothetical speculation, but it sure doesn't hurt to start off with a VERY strong foot. :wink:

Trust me, it breaks my heart that many things I want to do I cannot because of my allergies. I had give away my pony as a child because I reacted so badly when brushing him. It's a miracle that I can live with 3 dogs. My allergist thinks I am nuts!

*I like your idea of sending beef ribs! I will do that. He also has really taken to the antler, so I hope that this helps as well, although I know it's not nearly as effective as crunching bone!


----------



## catahoulamom (Sep 23, 2010)

It would be very difficult (actually, impossible) for me to send my dog to live with a handler for a few weeks, especially if they were not able or willing to feed my diet of choice. I understand why you made your decision, I hope everything goes as planned and he's at home and able to live out the rest of his life rough-housing, eating raw meat, and is able to 'be a dog' with Henry & Millie.  He sure is a handsome pup.


----------



## CavePaws (Jan 25, 2011)

Yes, I've been wanting to know how bad your allergies are as well. Not because I doubt their severity at all, just because I have very bad allergies. I used to get shots a couple times a week as a kid for mine and they did actually help. I have allergy induced asthma and exercise induced asthma so I sympathize with you. It really freaking sucks being allergic to animals; I'm allergic to my cats and even if I take my inhaler and a bunch of pills for it I still end up itching and wheezing and it is absolutely no fun at all. 

These are just my thoughts, because like Northwoods, I am also very competitive and want to be the person who titles all my dogs in agility - which means I've had to learn from some of the best handlers so that I can one day be an amazing handler. Can you not have someone come with you to shows, even a hired assistant, to watch over Tiger while he is in the grooming area? Just a thought! And even if you are sending him away so he can be titled, perhaps you can take some lessons on handling from some really renowned handlers in the show world while he is gone. Then when Tiger comes back to you, you can be more experienced in how to show your next dog.


----------



## BrownieM (Aug 30, 2010)

CavePaws said:


> Yes, I've been wanting to know how bad your allergies are as well. Not because I doubt their severity at all, just because I have very bad allergies. I used to get shots a couple times a week as a kid for mine and they did actually help. I have allergy induced asthma and exercise induced asthma so I sympathize with you. It really freaking sucks being allergic to animals; I'm allergic to my cats and even if I take my inhaler and a bunch of pills for it I still end up itching and wheezing and it is absolutely no fun at all.
> 
> These are just my thoughts, because like Northwoods, I am also very competitive and want to be the person who titles all my dogs in agility - which means I've had to learn from some of the best handlers so that I can one day be an amazing handler. Can you not have someone come with you to shows, even a hired assistant, to watch over Tiger while he is in the grooming area? Just a thought! And even if you are sending him away so he can be titled, perhaps you can take some lessons on handling from some really renowned handlers in the show world while he is gone. Then when Tiger comes back to you, you can be more experienced in how to show your next dog.


I did allergy shots as a kid too, they didn't work! 

I do plan on having this handler teach me as many tools of the trade as possible. She is a wonderful teacher and I think that I can learn a lot from her. I am taking Tiger for some scissoring in about 4 weeks - we will discuss the possibility of me getting some of his single points, of course. Possibly I could have him scissored and clipped the night before a show, and then just bring him to the show, limiting my exposure. 

Again, I am just planning for the worst!


----------



## lunagal (Aug 4, 2010)

hi BrownieM 
I know it must be really hard send you little one away! But I definatley understand why you are doing it and why you desire a championship. I think your choice to use a handler is very much understandable. So if I understand correctly your handler is comfortable feeding pre-made patties but really is not comfortable feeding PMR and/or it would be difficult to arrange that. I can see why pre-made raw would be very expensive but have you considered using a dehydrated raw like the honest kitchen while he is away from you? It would be less expensive than patties and much better than kibble. Although you would get no tooth cleaning benefits his nutrition would be better since it is not as heavily cooked. 
~Jill


----------



## Liz (Sep 27, 2010)

*Showing*

I am sorry for how you feel about this thread. It is diffcult for most to understand the importance of a title. I have collies and due to some health issues cannot show them myself. I do however have a handler locally and either meet them early at the show so they can groom or take my dog up the night before. He will have to find some majors but would only be gone for a long weekend and I prepackage raw into patties for them to feed. 
I breed my dogs occassionally so I want the best health, structure and temperment I can find. I will not let them leave for prolonged periods of time for any reason - that is just me. My dogs are my pets first and foremost anf if it takes three years tro finish then so be it. 
I do hope you get your boy back soon and can start working comeptions with him and enjoy him.


----------



## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

brownie, i give you credit....although i don't get it, i give you credit for doing what you think is best.

i couldn't. i get separation anxiety when i leave my two with their best friend....and i package their raw and she feeds it...she is definitely NOT a raw feeder...but she does it for us....and then takes them with her to work (grooming) and takes her to her house to play with her dogs...

and still i feel badly that i left them....

actually, on our traditional thanksgiving spacation....we are taking them with us....honey gets his massage and then i get mine, so they're not alone....very dog friendly nice massages place : )...what a way to spend thanksgiving..


----------



## BrownieM (Aug 30, 2010)

I have lived with this dog for a total of 3 days (I left for Vegas 2 days after I got him, so he was in my mom's care for 4 days). I am sure it will be even harder to part with him when the time comes. But, again, it is only a short period of time and I KNOW he will be in good hands. My friend sent her poodles with this handler for 5 weeks and the poodles wag their tails and jump up and down whenever they see the handler. 

It's hard to understand, especially if someone is not familiar with poodles. Showing poodles is NOT for the faint of heart. It requires extensive time, skilled grooming and coat maintenance that truly only the crazy would attempt. I had *dozens* of breeders refuse to sell me a show poodle because I have never handled a poodle myself. They will not show a show quality dog to a novice because nearly all fail. When I explained that I was thinking of using a handler, some give me a second chance. I finally found a breeder who was willing to give me a chance.

It would be nearly impossible for me to send Millie away for a long period of time, it would break my heart because she is my best friend and companion and because I purchased her knowing that she would be with me, by my side, for her entire life. But, the situation is different because I already knew this boy would go with a handler when I purchased him. It is in my mind every minute that I am with him. I will be prepared and it will be worth it, in the long run. 

Tiger is my little guy and my companion first as well. This is why I want him to be shown and finished ASAP so that he can live a dog's life. In my opinion, it is FAR more FAIR and allows him to be my companion *first* by allowing a handler to finish him quickly and return him to me.


----------



## Dude and Bucks Mamma (May 14, 2011)

One question I do have... how good IS this handler if she won't feed raw to your dog? I asked around my circle of handler friends (I wouldn't know because I won't send my boys with handlers) but they feed whatever the owner sends. They have fed kibble, BARF and RAW to various dogs depending on what the owner provided. They feel that, if the owner is going to take the time to set apart meals for them to feed to their charges, then they should feed what the owner wants.


----------



## BrownieM (Aug 30, 2010)

Dude and Bucks Mamma said:


> One question I do have... how good IS this handler if she won't feed raw to your dog? I asked around my circle of handler friends (I wouldn't know because I won't send my boys with handlers) but they feed whatever the owner sends. They have fed kibble, BARF and RAW to various dogs depending on what the owner provided. They feel that, if the owner is going to take the time to set apart meals for them to feed to their charges, then they should feed what the owner wants.


 This handler is one of very, very, very few in the entire Midwest with whom I would feel comfortable leaving my dog. I don't care what they feed, I won't leave my dog with a handler who won't treat my dog the way I want.


----------



## tem_sat (Jun 20, 2010)

Have you looked into any raw delivery services in the area where he will be shown? Something along the lines of Sashimi, Muscle Meat, Organ Meat,Raw dog food, free delivery in Austin for example? I also think you may have skipped over my original response, which may be found here: http://dogfoodchat.com/forum/raw-feeding/8519-new-puppy-kibble-fed-2.html#post92053. I would be totally fine with Acana + chicken quarters.


----------



## BrownieM (Aug 30, 2010)

tem_sat said:


> No guarantees, but you may start with 2 days a week raw (chicken quarters or backs to start) and the rest of the week feed Acana. Then raise that to 3 days a week if Tiger is doing well. I would think for a bit more as a monetary "bonus" the handler could "handle" buying and storing some chicken quarters to supplement Tiger's Acana. He would be fine on that until he comes back and can have more variety.


Woops! I didn't even see this post. I think I got overwhelmed by all of the others!!! 

I have never had any luck with dogs digesting kibble and digesting whole bone, even if the meals are spread out. My dogs could do pre-made raw together with kibble, but not whole bone and kibble.

Millie and Henry both could not do it, but I could try and see what happens if I give Tiger a chicken quarter! If this doesn't work, maybe I could send both pre-made raw and kibble. I might be able to afford everything if the pre-made raw was only some of his food.

He will be living about 120 miles from me, in the middle of nowhere. As far as I know, there isn't any raw delivery. That would be nice, though! However, I assume it would be pricey?


----------



## tem_sat (Jun 20, 2010)

Try a few things...

Start with 2 days a week. As you know, do not feed bone-in + Acana on the same day. See how that goes.

If that does not work, try supplementing the Acana with some boneless chicken meat (thigh meat). Not alot, just a little bit a few days a week. See how that goes. You may also want to try canned sardines as an option. My doxie had no problems at all with Acana + canned sardines. And those are cheap!

If neither works, then try supplementing the Acana with a few days (whatever is affordable) of commercial raw. Even just one day or 2 days a week would be great!


----------



## BrownieM (Aug 30, 2010)

Thanks!! This really is great advice. I wonder if I could eventually do 6 days a week of raw and 1 day a week of kibble? I think I know somebody who does this in case there is ever an emergency in which someone else must care for her dog and can't feed him raw.


----------



## Dude and Bucks Mamma (May 14, 2011)

And I totally get that. That is why I will never do anything but owner handle. Again, I don't have severe allergies OR handle a high maintenance breed like Poodles. Blueticks are supposed to be able to be taken from the field straight to the show ring. Like Labs, half of us don't even need to groom before we go in. Just a quick once over is all we need to do to make them look their best.

I understand where you are coming from but I feel that if I were a handler being paid to show someone else's dog, I would also feed their way. I like the idea of at least getting SOME raw in there if feeding all raw is not an option as tem_sat has suggested.


----------



## Serendipity (Aug 13, 2010)

I'm glad that everyone seems to be on good terms again. And for that very reason, I really don't want to add more fuel to the fire. But, one thing has been bothering me A LOT.

Do "oh, he's a SHOW dog" comments and stupid baby pageant videos seem very nice? No, they're childish, snide, and totally uncalled for. They didn't add anything worthwhile to this thread. 

I'm just pointing this out because many people denied being rude. I think DaneMama was the only one who refrained from childish and rude remarks.


----------



## monkeys23 (Dec 8, 2010)

Lots of good luck wishes for getting him CH'ed asap!!!

Acana Pacifica is a great food. He'll be fine. Just do some RMB's to scrub up those teeth periodically. If he's got a tough tummy you could totally do both too.


----------



## Grandiose (Apr 2, 2011)

Whew! This is the thread that never ends!! Took awhile to get to the end !!

Ok, as a breeder, exhibitor, and occasional handler for other people, I can completely understand where you are coming from. What people not involved in the show world generally fail to realize is that there is a TON of money involved in showing dogs!
For a dog with a coat like a Poodles, start up costs to procure all the basic necessary grooming equipment can run in excess of $1000...and that's before you even start going to shows! The longer an owner-handler drags a dog around showing it, while learning to groom and learning to handle dogs (both of which are arts that are mastered over YEARS not days weeks or months) the more money they are flushing down the toilet.
Very few shows have outdoor grooming, and if they do, it is generally tented, and you are still exposed to all the stuff from the other breeds.

As far as handlers and what they feed - 4 months ago, if someone approached me and wanted to send their dog out, but wanted me to feed it raw, the answer would have been "Sorry, I'm not set up for that." and I would have refused to take the client. I just had two client dogs with me for Nationals that are raw fed, and it wasn't a problem now because I feed my own dogs raw now and have a set up for it. MOST handlers will feed kibble and nothing else. 

Is it an option to do ringside pickup? That way, you can just take the dog to the handler in the morning to be groomed and shown, and take him back with you when he is done for the day. You would incur more traveling expenses, but you could care for and feed the dog how you want him to be fed. My second option would be something that has already been suggested, and that is to make a weekly or bi-weekly delivery of pre-packaged raw meals for your dog to the handler. 
Is it possible for you to travel with the handler at all? Go to shows with them? Some appreciate the extra help feeding and x-ing dogs, and it generally creates a credit on the bill 

In crazy-competitive breeds, like Poodles, owner-handlers are rare (and newbie owner-handlers have far too much of the deck stacked against them!) and Pro handlers dominate, and there is a BIG difference between your average handler and the big-name breed specialists. I have been handling dogs since I was 10, shown so many different breeds I've list count, finished countless Champions....and my Doberman STILL went out with a handler (breed specialist, well known) to finish after I put half his points on him (including a major) because we just weren't getting anywhere, and he is a gorgeous, CORRECT, dog! He finished in 3 weekends, picked up his second major during a HUGE specialty/supported entry weekend. And then he came home. It was VERY worth it to me.

Best of luck to you and your boy, I hope he does well for you


----------



## TuckersMom (Apr 27, 2011)

BrownieM said:


> My new puppy, Tiger, (6 months) is kibble fed. He was on Iams when I got him and I am transitioning him to Acana Pacifica. As most of you know, I feed my other two poodles raw. I want to switch Tiger to raw SO BADLY, but I'm not sure if it is feasible because he will be living with a handler off and on when he is shown in conformation. Sending him with homemade raw is not an option, unfortunately. Sending him with pre-made raw is far too expensive for me.  He will go to the handler in about 2 months. I hope that his career will be very short and sweet.
> 
> Anyway, I am really not enjoying the "side effects" of feeding kibble. Tiger has massive poops, he poops 2-3 times a day, his teeth have plaque (he's 6 months and he has more plaque than raw fed Henry at 3!) and his breath stinks like dog breath.
> 
> ...


How about something in between raw and kibble, like dehydrated? The Honest Kitchen dehydrated food may be a good option for you :smile: I was feeding Tucker just THK for a couple of months before I started transitioning to raw and he did fantastic on it. His coat got shinier and thicker and he was also more energetic. It's a lot cheaper than frozen raw.

ETA: Gosh, I posted this before I read everyone's responses. I just want to encourage you and tell you that you aren't doing anything wrong and I wish the best for you and your dog! :smile:


----------



## TuckersMom (Apr 27, 2011)

lunagal said:


> hi BrownieM
> I know it must be really hard send you little one away! But I definatley understand why you are doing it and why you desire a championship. I think your choice to use a handler is very much understandable. So if I understand correctly your handler is comfortable feeding pre-made patties but really is not comfortable feeding PMR and/or it would be difficult to arrange that. I can see why pre-made raw would be very expensive but have you considered using a dehydrated raw like the honest kitchen while he is away from you? It would be less expensive than patties and much better than kibble. Although you would get no tooth cleaning benefits his nutrition would be better since it is not as heavily cooked.
> ~Jill


Hi Jill, I posted a reply to Brownie before I read all the responses. Whew! Anyway, I said almost the exact same thing as you, lol, re The Honest Kitchen :smile:


----------

