# Prong collars?



## rawfeederr

LOL!

Tiger just has an orange collar, orange leash, & silver prong collar. :smile:

*NOTE FROM MOD: This has been split off from another thread to maintain the original discussion*


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## DaneMama

Why prong collar? They are not a good thing to use at all...?


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## rawfeederr

danemama08 said:


> Why prong collar? They are not a good thing to use at all...?


Prong collar because they are very useful training tools, when used correctly. 
Why are they bad?


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## CorgiPaws

rawfeederr said:


> Prong collar because they are very useful training tools, when used correctly.
> Why are they bad?


You can not use a torture device "correctly" on a dog in the name of training. I'll leave this subject alone for now, it makes me angry. 

My dogs only wear collars when they go anywhere, but they're nekkid at home. I don't like collars. But they each have their own coordinating set. If I buy a new collar, they have to have a matching leash too.


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## rawfeederr

CorgiPaws said:


> You can not use a torture device "correctly" on a dog in the name of training. I'll leave this subject alone for now, it makes me angry.
> 
> My dogs only wear collars when they go anywhere, but they're nekkid at home. I don't like collars. But they each have their own coordinating set. If I buy a new collar, they have to have a matching leash too.



I don't think they are torture at all; my dog is excited when I get his out. But to each their own I guess.


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## RawFedDogs

rawfeederr said:


> I don't think they are torture at all; my dog is excited when I get his out. But to each their own I guess.


They certainly aren't positive reinforcement by any stretch of the imagination. Any good trainer has no need for such a "tool". I don't even use a collar when I train unless I'm teaching loose leash walking.


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## rawfeederr

RawFedDogs said:


> They certainly aren't positive reinforcement by any stretch of the imagination. Any good trainer has no need for such a "tool". I don't even use a collar when I train unless I'm teaching loose leash walking.


I don't do only positive reinforcement. If my dog does something undesirable he is corrected, which isn't positive reinforcement (I don't think; I haven't really read up on it). I guess that is another reason I use them.
Works fantastic for me.


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## RawFedDogs

rawfeederr said:


> I don't do only positive reinforcement. If my dog does something undesirable he is corrected, which isn't positive reinforcement (I don't think; I haven't really read up on it). I guess that is another reason I use them.
> Works fantastic for me.


You can beat him with a hose also but it doesn't mean its the right thing to do. You should try only positive reinforcement. You will be amazed. There are better ways than "correcting". Teaching is a far superior method.


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## DaneMama

rawfeederr said:


> I don't think they are torture at all; my dog is excited when I get his out. But to each their own I guess.


The people who use training tools like this one are those who don't think that they are "torture" devices. They are also ones that use negative reinforcement because they haven't learned that training can be done with nothing but positive reinforcement. Dogs learn faster and better with nothing but positive interactions.



rawfeederr said:


> I don't do only positive reinforcement. If my dog does something undesirable he is corrected, which isn't positive reinforcement (I don't think; I haven't really read up on it). I guess that is another reason I use them.
> Works fantastic for me.


Punishment is not positive reinforcement, you are correct in this. Punishment is something that is undesirable that happens to a dog when he doesn't do the right thing. This can be yelling or some kind of physical cue, whatever it is and no matter how "small" or "innocent" it might seem. Negative punishment is negative punishment. 

If your dog doesn't do the right thing, the best thing you can do is not give him positive reinforcement or in other words ignore the undesired action. This is all that needs to be done for it to be corrected. I would read up on more use of positive reinforcement and get rid of your prong collar because you really don't need it. It only works because it hurts the dog whenever he does something you don't like.


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## wags

A prong collar is a series of large metal links with prongs protruding inwards. When the collar is placed on the pups neck, the prongs sit against the neck of the pup. When you attach the leash to the collar and pull on the leash, it works in a similar way to that of the choke chain, in that the collar contracts and chokes.:frown: The prongs dig into the animal’s flesh and pinch it, forcing the dog to correct its behavior.:frown:

So correcting a dog with this type of collar is not the best choice! Victoria Stillwells show has many great points of training methods other than force and harm. Also The culture Clash great training book.:smile:


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## dogtrainer1507

I'm going to only say this once and it's not to get people fired up. If your a good dog trainer you learn all methods of training and how all collars in general work. Every dog is different and people too and in some instances with certain cases those collars are appropriate. A prong collar actually gives the dog a soft bite just like a mother corrects her puppies. And I know because I have tried it on myself. Like any collar if used the wrong way it can harm. I'm not saying eveyone go but one and use one, or that positve doesn't work as well, but if that collar works don't let people tell you different. You know your dog and know yourself. No other comment needed.


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## DaneMama

dogtrainer1507 said:


> I'm going to only say this once and it's not to get people fired up. If your a good dog trainer you learn all methods of training and how all collars in general work. Every dog is different and people too and in some instances with certain cases those collars are appropriate. A prong collar actually gives the dog a soft bite just like a mother corrects her puppies. And I know because I have tried it on myself. Like any collar if used the wrong way it can harm. I'm not saying eveyone go but one and use one, or that positve doesn't work as well, but if that collar works don't let people tell you different. You know your dog and know yourself. No other comment needed.


The slight "bite" is still a negative interaction with you and the dog. YOU are in no way ANYTHING like a motherdog to the dog in training. The dog does NOT see you as a mothering figure. It see's you as a threat, nothing more. Lets remember here that humans are not dogs, and dogs are not EVER going to think that you are a dog, so don't try and act like one. There are body language cues that dogs can pick up on, but these are non abrasive in any way and work across species...a little something called calming signals. End of story. 

When the collar "bites" them it teaches them that they get pinched or hurt when they do a certain action hence the steep learning curve. Punishment trains dogs very quickly because they don't like to be hurt so they avoid confrontation as much as possible. Doesn't matter how slight the "bite" is to the animal, its still a negative interaction no matter how you describe it. 

Positive reinforcement is the only way to go that you will gain full trust of the dog and be in full respect of the dog. If you resort to using negative training tools like a prong collar you are nothing more than a bully to a dog. Nothing more.


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## dogtrainer1507

Hhhmm so you think every situation can be solved by positive you try it with a red zone aggressive dog that wants to rip another dog or person to shreds or has and let's see if hanging food and praising the dog or ignoring it works. It's doesn't work in all cases I'm a professional dog trainer and have been for over twelves years and have studied and been to many seminars on every type of training method and I have no problem saying that. You can't always use just one method of training it's not just the dog or the person your training. There are so many different options available and if your smart you read up and know all of them otherwise you limit yourself. If you don't agree with it don't get on other people who do. Because you have no idea what their situation is or their dogs. I don't have a problem with opinion but don't tell someone you don't need it because you really don't know. State your preference that's all I'm saying


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## DaneMama

dogtrainer1507 said:


> Hhhmm so you think every situation can be solved by positive you try it with a red zone aggressive dog that wants to rip another dog or person to shreds or has and let's see if hanging food and praising the dog or ignoring it works.


If this was a "real" life situation, I would think the trainer unexperienced to see that this situation is one, if not, MANY steps too far past the dog's ability to concentrate. You have to take baby steps and work slowly with a dog. A dog like this one takes LOTS and LOTS of work. You cannot take an aggressive dog like this one and stick into a situation just arbitrarily and expect it to do what you want. And I find it especially harmful to use AGGRESSIVE methods on an already AGGRESSIVE dog. Its like feeding the fire! 

It might take 2 weeks to get a dog like this one to even begin to trust you, but at least you are gaining its respect instead of bullying it. But lets remember that most people are too impatient to use positive methods. 



> It's doesn't work in all cases I'm a professional dog trainer and have been for over twelves years and have studied and been to many seminars on every type of training method and I have no problem saying that. You can't always use just one method of training it's not just the dog or the person your training. There are so many different options available and if your smart you read up and know all of them otherwise you limit yourself.


It's great that you have been in training for 12 years, but the methods that you condone tell me that you are outdated in your practices. A person with one year of experience using nothing but positive reinforcement is more qualified in my book. There are better methods out there than coercing a dog to do what you want.




> If you don't agree with it don't get on other people who do. Because you have no idea what their situation is or their dogs. I don't have a problem with opinion but don't tell someone you don't need it because you really don't know. State your preference that's all I'm saying


I don't have issues with people having their own opinions, but I don't like it when people advertise inappropriate methods and recommend using things like prong collars. Like I have said earlier, there are better and more effective ways to train a dog other than pain and coercion.


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## dogtrainer1507

I don't recall saying what methods I use I actually just said I have learned alot of different methods and studied a lot. But then again every thread I comment on people put words in my mouth won't post on any of the threads here anymore and won't recommend anyone else does either. Maybe there's a reason that there aren't very many people here.


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## DaneMama

dogtrainer1507 said:


> *If your a good dog trainer you learn all methods of training and how all collars in general work. Every dog is different and people too and in some instances with certain cases those collars are appropriate. A prong collar actually gives the dog a soft bite just like a mother corrects her puppies. And I know because I have tried it on myself. Like any collar if used the wrong way it can harm. I'm not saying eveyone go but one and use one, or that positve doesn't work as well, but if that collar works don't let people tell you different. You know your dog and know yourself. No other comment needed*.





dogtrainer1507 said:


> *Hhhmm so you think every situation can be solved by positive you try it with a red zone aggressive dog that wants to rip another dog or person to shreds or has and let's see if hanging food and praising the dog or ignoring it works. It's doesn't work in all cases I'm a professional dog trainer and have been for over twelves years and have studied and been to many seminars on every type of training method and I have no problem saying that. You can't always use just one method of training it's not just the dog or the person your training. There are so many different options available and if your smart you read up and know all of them otherwise you limit yourself. If you don't agree with it don't get on other people who do. Because you have no idea what their situation is or their dogs. I don't have a problem with opinion but don't tell someone you don't need it because you really don't know. State your preference that's all I'm saying*





dogtrainer1507 said:


> I don't recall saying what methods I use I actually just said I have learned alot of different methods and studied a lot. But then again every thread I comment on people put words in my mouth won't post on any of the threads here anymore and won't recommend anyone else does either. Maybe there's a reason that there aren't very many people here.


Looking at your two previous posts in this thread, I would have pretty high confidence in saying that you at least suggest using them to others if not use them personally. And if you use prong collars, I am also confident in the assumption you use other negative reinforcement training methods. Just what I'm gathering from what you say about training. If you have been to all sorts of training schools and classes I would hope that you would find that all negative training methods are unnecessary and outdated.

You are the one choosing not to post anymore, for your own reasons whatever they might be. We all have different ways of seeing things but that is no reason to get upset about anything. Just means that we agree to disagree. There are not a lot of people on this forum because it is still relatively new in the grand scheme of things. Most of the larger forums out there have been around 10 years. This particular forum is a year and a half old. I would say that we are doing quite well!


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## CorgiPaws

dogtrainer1507 said:


> I'm going to only say this once and it's not to get people fired up. If your a good dog trainer you learn all methods of training and how all collars in general work.


We all know how they work, that does not make them okay to use. I know how a whip works too, does that mean I'm about to bust one out next time one of my dogs steps out of line? No! Why? I don't abuse in the name of training. 



dogtrainer1507 said:


> . Every dog is different and people too and in some instances with certain cases those collars are appropriate.


Every kid is different, too, maybe parents should abuse as they see necessary. 



dogtrainer1507 said:


> I'm not saying eveyone go but one and use one, or that positve doesn't work as well, but if that collar works don't let people tell you different.


Abuse works, too. Downright smacking or kicking a dog will keep him in line real fast. Does that mean it's okay? NO. That does nothing for the relationship and bond, and only intimidates the dog into submission. I like to think the quality of life for my dogs is a bit better than that.


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## RawFedDogs

dogtrainer1507 said:


> Hhhmm so you think every situation can be solved by positive you try it with a red zone aggressive dog that wants to rip another dog or person to shreds or has and let's see if hanging food and praising the dog or ignoring it works.


Yes, if you are a first rate trainer and know what you are doing.



> It's doesn't work in all cases I'm a professional dog trainer and have been for over twelves years and have studied and been to many seminars on every type of training method and I have no problem saying that.


I was a professional trainer for 15 years and trained not only dogs but many wild animals. I have trained animals who had no intent or desire to please me or be my friend. Killing me was the top priority on their mind.

I too have studied in many seminars and with many top notch professional trainers. I have used pinch collars and choke chains. I have jerked and pulled dogs all over town. That was before I learned how to train effectively using 100% positive methods.



> You can't always use just one method of training it's not just the dog or the person your training.


Assuming the animal isn't brain damaged, any animal can be trained (I prefer the term "teach") using only positive reinforcement IF the trainer is competent. I have seen anything from rhino's to gorillas to elephants to lions and tigers and many other so called dangerous animals trained this way. 



> There are so many different options available and if your smart you read up and know all of them otherwise you limit yourself.


I know them all by experience but it is down right cruel to use pain to get an animal to perform a behavior you wish if you can get the same behavior without pain. If you are competent with that species, you can.



> If you don't agree with it don't get on other people who do.


Well, I do. When I see someone using pain it is showing me that the animal is smarter than the trainer and the trainer has no other way to control the animal, whatever species the animal happens to be.



> Because you have no idea what their situation is or their dogs.


Don't need to know. If they are using pain, they are wrong and/or ignorant. One or the other. If ignorant they need to get educated. The days of the compulsive trainer are quckly coming to an end. There are fewer and fewer of them every day. The end won't come too soon for me.



> I don't have a problem with opinion but don't tell someone you don't need it because you really don't know. State your preference that's all I'm saying


I do know and you don't need it. EVER! If you think you need it, so some research and/or ask for help.

As you can tell, I don't have a lot of patience with trainers who still insist on using aversive methods in todays world.


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## spookychick13

Ironic, but we just had a dog in at the clinic who had an abscess on the back of her neck from her prong collar breaking the skin.


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## harrkim120

spookychick13 said:


> Ironic, but we just had a dog in at the clinic who had an abscess on the back of her neck from her prong collar breaking the skin.


Random question...how did she get an abscess on the BACK of her neck? Were they leaving it on all the time?


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## DaneMama

Prong collars pinch the entire neck, it's why they work so well. My gues is that it was left on all the time. The constant pressure and pinch from the prongs eventually just damaged the skin to the point of infection.


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## harrkim120

danemama08 said:


> Prong collars pinch the entire neck, it's why they work so well. My gues is that it was left on all the time. The constant pressure and pinch from the prongs eventually just damaged the skin to the point of infection.


They shouldn't pinch the whole neck if sized properly...problem is most don't know how to. Apparently they didn't know much since it seems they left it on all the time...:frown:


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## DaneMama

harrkim120 said:


> They shouldn't pinch the whole neck if sized properly...problem is most don't know how to. Apparently they didn't know much since it seems they left it on all the time...:frown:


Or they didn't know much by using them in the first place *shrug* ?!?!?


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## Todd

although i dont use nor do i believe that it's acceptable to use prong collars, if used correctly i believe that prong collars are better for people to use than chocker chains because the choker chains could cause damage to the trachea. i guess the prong collars could cause damage as well. maybe nerve damage?


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## spookychick13

harrkim120 said:


> Random question...how did she get an abscess on the BACK of her neck? Were they leaving it on all the time?


Yes, sadly. And the idiots didn't even realize it was RUSTING.

They left her outside with it on, using the prong collar to connect her to her chain.


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## whiteleo

This is why they shouldn't be sold to the general public! Let me just say that I have a prong collar and I can count 2 times that I have used it.
My male dog is not socialized, and when meeting his new sister last thursday I put it on him as a distraction to agression. It works great put in the right hands, not too tight and just a little "I'm here" and he didn't go after her like he does when meeting up close. I've done the private positive reenforcement lessons with him, but he is so insecure other dogs feel that.

It all need to start at puppyhood, and unfortunately I didn't rescue him until he was 11 months old.


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## spookychick13

Someone *cough* called animal control on that guy.


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## Unosmom

any training tool can be misused and abused, I find gentle leader/halti to be quite severe and have seen it cause serious eye injuries. 
Personally I dont have a moral dillema with using one.


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## malluver1005

Unosmom said:


> any training tool can be misused and abused, I find gentle leader/halti to be quite severe and have seen it cause serious eye injuries.
> Personally I dont have a moral dillema with using one.


And, the gentle leader (what I use) can cause severe neck injuries if abused.


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## rawfeederr

spookychick13 said:


> Ironic, but we just had a dog in at the clinic who had an abscess on the back of her neck from her prong collar breaking the skin.


That's what happens when they are used _incorrectly_. You have to use them correctly for them to safe & effective.


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## harrkim120

spookychick13 said:


> Someone *cough* called animal control on that guy.


Props to that someone. :biggrin:

However...I am not condoning using a training collar or not, but when used incorrectly ANY collar can cause damage... I don't know how many dogs I've seen walking through my job coughing, hacking, and sometimes throwing up because they just keep pulling and pulling. The biggest rule of thumb is that no matter what collar you use, training needs to be partnered with it too!!! The dogs don't teach themselves....not yet at least. lol


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## rawfeederr

RawFedDogs said:


> You can beat him with a hose also but it doesn't mean its the right thing to do. You should try only positive reinforcement. You will be amazed. There are better ways than "correcting". Teaching is a far superior method.


I have tried it.
Did *not* work for my dog.

So I will just stick with my prong collars.


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## rawfeederr

danemama08 said:


> I would read up on more use of positive reinforcement and get rid of your prong collar because you really don't need it. It only works because it hurts the dog whenever he does something you don't like.


I don't want to try positive reinforcement again.. it just didn't work for my dog. I have been advised by 2 or 3 professional trainers to use a prong. Not saying they are right or wrong, but it's what works for me.


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## rawfeederr

wags said:


> A prong collar is a series of large metal links with prongs protruding inwards. When the collar is placed on the pups neck, the prongs sit against the neck of the pup. When you attach the leash to the collar and pull on the leash, it works in a similar way to that of the choke chain, in that the collar contracts and chokes.:frown: The prongs dig into the animal’s flesh and pinch it, forcing the dog to correct its behavior.:frown:
> 
> So correcting a dog with this type of collar is not the best choice! Victoria Stillwells show has many great points of training methods other than force and harm. Also The culture Clash great training book.:smile:



The collar doesn't "dig" into the neck unless you pull hard. When I use mine, I do NOT pull on it at all unless I'm correcting. And even then, I just pop the leash gently. It feels uncomfortable to the dog.

They don't really "hurt". I've tried one on and pulled pretty hard, it really didn't cause any pain.

Victoria Stillwell? I'd rather not! lol


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## spookychick13

What about Mr. Zak George?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vIdeT5S9u4Y


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## DaneMama

rawfeederr said:


> I have tried it.
> Did *not* work for my dog.
> 
> So I will just stick with my prong collars.


Ok 




spookychick13 said:


> What about Mr. Zak George?
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vIdeT5S9u4Y


He is better than Cesar Milan by leaps and bounds but I still don't believe that all of his ideas and methods are great. I don't like the idea that he advocates getting in a dog's face...not a good idea. But at least he is using positive reinforcement methods and not training crutches like prong collars or choke chains.


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## dogtrainer1507

The collar doesn't "dig" into the neck unless you pull hard. When I use mine, I do NOT pull on it at all unless I'm correcting. And even then, I just pop the leash gently. It feels uncomfortable to the dog.

They don't really "hurt". I've tried one on and pulled pretty hard, it really didn't cause any pain.

Victoria Stillwell? I'd rather not! lol
__________________
Mariah & Tiger 

Don't feel bad if that is the method you use not everyone is going to like it, but its their own opinion and its not their dog. You know yourself so if positive doesn't work for you, that is your own choice. I don't advocate either way as a trainer. I do what the client wants me to do, it;s their choice. If I think it could be done a better way or use positive that is always my first option, but I don't condone other methods in anyway. Some people it just doesn't work for them. Or the time that it takes it to long for them. Especially if they are a 80 year old grandma with a huge pulling lab and no one to practice with the dog but her. I never say strickly one way or another. So if people have issues it's their own problem.


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## dogtrainer1507

and actually it is super easy to get the dog used to a flat collar after a prong collar is used also.


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## rawfeederr

dogtrainer1507 said:


> and actually it is super easy to get the dog used to a flat collar after a prong collar is used also.


My dog *does* wear a flat collar.


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## rawfeederr

spookychick13 said:


> What about Mr. Zak George?
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vIdeT5S9u4Y


Tiger doesn't pull though.


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## RawFedDogs

dogtrainer1507 said:


> They don't really "hurt". I've tried one on and pulled pretty hard, it really didn't cause any pain.


Have you put one around your neck and had someone stand behind you and jerk hard enough to pull you backward a few steps? Until you have done that, don't experience what a dog experiences.

In my mind, pinch collars are cruel in any circumstance and should be outlawed. ANYONE can train positively if they bother to learn the way to do it.

As you might guess, I am kinda against them. :smile:


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## spookychick13

Sorry I should have put it in context...I wondered what you thought of him vs. Stillwell.

I like Zak personally, but I have a history with him.


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## malluver1005

rawfeederr said:


> Tiger doesn't pull though.


I'm just curious, if your Tiger doesn't pull, why do you need the prong collar?


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## rawfeederr

RawFedDogs said:


> Have you put one around your neck and had someone stand behind you and jerk hard enough to pull you backward a few steps? Until you have done that, don't experience what a dog experiences.
> 
> In my mind, pinch collars are cruel in any circumstance and should be outlawed. ANYONE can train positively if they bother to learn the way to do it.
> 
> As you might guess, I am kinda against them. :smile:


I don't pull that hard to jerk my dog off his feet.. I just tug it.

I really don't get how they are cruel. I have learned how to train positively and it just DIDN'T work for my dog.. one training method just doesn't work for all dogs. 

Anyhow... can we stop the "controlled argument" over prongs? I'm using them with *my* dog, not anyone else's dogs.


:smile::redface::smile:


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## rawfeederr

malluver1005 said:


> I'm just curious, if your Tiger doesn't pull, why do you need the prong collar?


For corrections when he does something undesirable; dogs do more undesirable things than just pull.


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## rawfeederr

spookychick13 said:


> Sorry I should have put it in context...I wondered what you thought of him vs. Stillwell.
> 
> I like Zak personally, but I have a history with him.


I didn't watch the whole vid because my internet crashed during it, so I can't really say, but I don't think I'd have either of them train my dog; they don't use my preferred method, which isn't pure positive reinforcement.


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## DaneMama

spookychick13 said:


> Sorry I should have put it in context...I wondered what you thought of him vs. Stillwell.
> 
> I like Zak personally, but I have a history with him.


Oh, I guess I prefer Stillwell, but that might just be because I haven't seen too much of Zak...There are things that she does that I don't agree with. I guess I can say with all honesty that there is probably no trainer out there that I would agree with 100% of the time!


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## Magic Lyn :3

*Wow...*

Whoa! This has turned into a huge huge huge discussion... All of this resumes to:

IN THE WRONG HANDS, LIKE EVERY TRAINING TOOL, PRONGS\E-COLLARS\CHAINS CAN WORK OUT BADLY... BUT IN THE RIGHT HANDS, THEY ARE EXCELENT TRAINING TOOLS!

Says who uses them in a responsible way, unlike the idiots who are giving them the fame of "torture tool"...

~Lyn :biggrin:


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## rawfeederr

Magic Lyn :3 said:


> Whoa! This has turned into a huge huge huge discussion... All of this resumes to:
> 
> IN THE WRONG HANDS, LIKE EVERY TRAINING TOOL, PRONGS\E-COLLARS\CHAINS CAN WORK OUT BADLY... BUT IN THE RIGHT HANDS, THEY ARE EXCELENT TRAINING TOOLS!
> 
> Says who uses them in a responsible way, unlike the idiots who are giving them the fame of "torture tool"...
> 
> ~Lyn :biggrin:


Hi Lyn, welcome to the forum. And thanks for your post - I agree 100%! :smile:


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## Magic Lyn :3

*NP!*



rawfeederr said:


> Hi Lyn, welcome to the forum. And thanks for your post - I agree 100%! :smile:


Thanks Mariah! I agree 100% with you agreeing 100%: TEE-HEE.

I wonder if some clickery moron will reply to me? 

~Lyn :biggrin:


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## rawfeederr

Magic Lyn :3 said:


> Thanks Mariah! I agree 100% with you agreeing 100%: TEE-HEE.
> 
> I wonder if some clickery moron will reply to me?
> 
> ~Lyn :biggrin:


Hehe. :biggrin:


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## DaneMama

Lyn, welcome to the boards! :wink:

But with all due respect, please respect everyone on here and don't name call. I find it offensive and it shows poor netiquette and considered highly unacceptable here.


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## CorgiPaws

Magic Lyn :3 said:


> Thanks Mariah! I agree 100% with you agreeing 100%: TEE-HEE.
> 
> I wonder if some clickery moron will reply to me?
> 
> ~Lyn :biggrin:


As much as everyone's opinion is welcome here, I do find uncalled for to begin name calling, and I don't think it gives a good first impression for your first post. Uhhh.... welcome to the forum. 



And I guess I will be the "clickery moron" as I'm already the "idiot" who dubbed these as torture devices, which is exactly what they are. 

A GOOD trainer does not need tools to train with. A GOOD trainer builds a positive bond with the animal being trained. A GOOD trainer uses positive methods to make the animal want to behave and learn. A GOOD trainer does not in any way use *fear or PAIN in ANY amount *to get the results they want. A GOOD trainer has a level of resepct for the animal they are training beyond that of using negative methods. A GOOD trainer understands that positive training doesn't necessarily give the instant results people crave, but rather lasting results based off of trust. A GOOD trainer has patience. A GOOD trainer would never even think of wrapping a pokey metal device around their dog's neck in the name of training. A GOOD trainer's dog respects him and listens because he knows his best interest is at hand. 

a POOR trainer uses pain and fear to get the results he wants. A POOR trainer uses devices such as choke chains, prong collars, and shock collars for instant results because he doesn't know enough about training to do it right. A POOR trainer's dog fears him, or will come to resent him. A POOR trainer thinks negative training is beneficial because results come quickly.


----------



## rawfeederr

CorgiPaws said:


> As much as everyone's opinion is welcome here, I do find uncalled for to begin name calling, and I don't think it gives a good first impression for your first post. Uhhh.... welcome to the forum.
> 
> 
> 
> And I guess I will be the "clickery moron" as I'm already the "idiot" who dubbed these as torture devices, which is exactly what they are.
> 
> A GOOD trainer does not need tools to train with. A GOOD trainer builds a positive bond with the animal being trained. A GOOD trainer uses positive methods to make the animal want to behave and learn. A GOOD trainer does not in any way use *fear or PAIN in ANY amount *to get the results they want. A GOOD trainer has a level of resepct for the animal they are training beyond that of using negative methods. A GOOD trainer understands that positive training doesn't necessarily give the instant results people crave, but rather lasting results based off of trust. A GOOD trainer has patience. A GOOD trainer would never even think of wrapping a pokey metal device around their dog's neck in the name of training. A GOOD trainer's dog respects him and listens because he knows his best interest is at hand.
> 
> a POOR trainer uses pain and fear to get the results he wants. A POOR trainer uses devices such as choke chains, prong collars, and shock collars for instant results because he doesn't know enough about training to do it right. A POOR trainer's dog fears him, or will come to resent him. A POOR trainer things negative training is beneficial because results come quickly.




Just because you don't like them doesn't mean they are evil, but okay... 
No one called you a clickery idiot because you aren't.

Prong collars aren't torture tools... they just aren't. And positive reinforcement..just..doesn't work for Tiger. 
I *do* praise my dog when he does something good. Did you think I just corrected & that's it? Because that sure wouldn't work.. that's not what I'm doing. So I guess you could say I am doing part positive reinforcement, since I reward good behavior, and part negative, because I correct bad behavior.

Either way, I do respect my dog. I love my dog. He is a family member.. why wouldn't I love him?
I've tried positive reinforcement all Tiger's life, and he's always been unruly 'til I started using this method. And my dog does respect me. 
So if I am a poor trainer, fine. But I am going to keep using the prong.

I believe that there is a different approach to be taken to training each dog. A blend of positive & negative is just what works for Tiger.


EDIT
___
You said everyone's opinion is welcome here but it doesn't seem like it by the way you are acting towards they way *I* chose to train *my dog*.


----------



## CorgiPaws

rawfeederr said:


> I believe that there is a different approach to be taken to training each dog. A blend of positive & negative is just what works for Tiger.


I was an unruly kid. 
I'm glad my mom didn't have your approach. 
I'd have been a beaten bloody pulp years ago. 


ps. I'm not saying you don't love your dog. I do feel, based on the methods you use, that you have a lot to learn about training, and are currently not a good one. But by all means, I am NOT claiming the love for your dog isn't there, because I know it is. You would not be here if it wasn't:wink:


----------



## rawfeederr

CorgiPaws said:


> ps. I'm not saying you don't love your dog. I do feel, based on the methods you use, that you have a lot to learn about training, and are currently not a good one. But by all means, I am NOT claiming the love for your dog isn't there, because I know it is. You would not be here if it wasn't:wink:


I know you don't like the way I train & I accept that... but you shouldn't go around calling people "bad" trainers because they don't train they way you like.
I don't see WHY I should use positive reinforcement only. It doesn't work for me!


----------



## dogtrainer1507

This is what bothers me about this forum. If you have stated your opinion on the subject fine. Everyone heard you. And this is were I see someone starting to feel like they are being picked on. This is a dog chat forum. I didn't see anything that said it was a debate forum. Rawfeederr asked opinions and got them all points have been made. Maybe everyone should agree to disagree. Just a thought before you hurt someones feelings. Just because your not face to face doesn't mean they don't have feelings.


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## DaneMama

I agree to disagree on the whole needing to train debate with using "tools" :wink:


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## dogtrainer1507

I second that motion. Agree to disagree


----------



## rawfeederr

dogtrainer1507 said:


> This is what bothers me about this forum. If you have stated your opinion on the subject fine. Everyone heard you. And this is were I see someone starting to feel like they are being picked on. This is a dog chat forum. I didn't see anything that said it was a debate forum. Rawfeederr asked opinions and got them all points have been made. Maybe everyone should agree to disagree. Just a thought before you hurt someones feelings. Just because your not face to face doesn't mean they don't have feelings.


Who's hurting someone else's feelings? It's the Internet... you shouldn't let your feelings get hurt over some person on the Internet!

I didn't even ask for opinions. All I did was state that my dog has an orange collar, orange leash, and a silver prong collar...


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## dogtrainer1507

I find people calling people bad trainers and morons offensive no matter where I'm at. Sometimes it's better to agree to disagree. Before someone does get hurt


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## RawFedDogs

rawfeederr said:


> Just because you don't like them doesn't mean they are evil, but okay...


Unnecessarily inflicting pain on an animal, ANY ANIMAL, just to get them to preform the way you wish is evil by any definition.



> Prong collars aren't torture tools... they just aren't.


They cause pain. That makes them torture tools. If they didn't cause pain, they would be no more effective than a leather or nylon collar.



> And positive reinforcement..just..doesn't work for Tiger.


I have trained for 15 years and I never found an animal, domestic or wild, that couldn't be trained using 100% positive reinforcement. I ask you to get the book The Power of Positive Dog Training. Read it carefully and try it's suggestions. You will be amazed. Don't think I am attacking you. I am just telling you that once you learn the proper way to train a dog, you will understand what I say.

Very few people know what it's like living with a dog who trusts you completely. A dog who has never ever experienced pain inflicted by you. A dog that knows absolutely that no matter what happens, you will not harm him in any way. A dog who has your absolute devotion just as he gives you his absolute devotion. Once you have lived with a dog like that, you will never inflict pain on another animal.



> I *do* praise my dog when he does something good. Did you think I just corrected & that's it? Because that sure wouldn't work.. that's not what I'm doing. So I guess you could say I am doing part positive reinforcement, since I reward good behavior, and part negative, because I correct bad behavior.


Thats what you don't understand. You can't be a 100% positive dog trainer and also "correct" the dog. One leash jerk will undo months of positive bonding. It will wipe out all the work you put in to get the dog's trust. You cannot expect postitive reinforcement to work while the dog doesn't trust 100% that you won't do anytying to hurt him. It just will not work. The dog must trust you completely and he won't if you are jerking the leash with a prong collar at unexpected times.



> Either way, I do respect my dog. I love my dog. He is a family member.. why wouldn't I love him?


Why would you cause him pain if you can get the same or better results without it?



> I've tried positive reinforcement all Tiger's life, and he's always been unruly 'til I started using this method.


Then you need more study. Positive dog training is not something you pick up over night. It takes a long time to perfect it. It also takes dedication and patience. Once you master it, it is well worth the effort.



> And my dog does respect me. So if I am a poor trainer, fine. But I am going to keep using the prong.


Stop and think about it. How would you feel about someone who will at random times purposely inflict pain on you and probably yell at you at the same time? Often times you will have no idea why the pain was inflicted. Would you respect that person or fear him? Your dog acts the way that makes his life more comfortable. If his life is more comfortable acting like he respects you and loves you then thats the way he will behave.



> I believe that there is a different approach to be taken to training each dog. A blend of positive & negative is just what works for Tiger.


There are many different approaches to training a dog but only one best way that will work for every dog and every wild animal with a brainstem. Heck, I've even seen gold fish trained using positive reinforcement. I have myself trained chickens using positive reinforcement. I have trained rats and mice as well as birds of prey. ALL using positive reinforcement. 

Remember if you use negative reinforcement on a bird one single time, he will fly away and you'll never see him again. You MUST build that trust. You can't do it while using negative reinforcement.



> EDIT
> ___
> You said everyone's opinion is welcome here but it doesn't seem like it by the way you are acting towards they way *I* chose to train *my dog*.


Its a discussion. During a discussion, people express their knowledge based on their experiences. You can't expect everyone to agree with you all the time. When the greatest majority don't agree with you, perhaps you should take a look at yourself.

I have had my say, so now we can agree to disagree. :smile:


----------



## Magic Lyn :3

*Sorry And...*

Sorry for me being such an ass. 

However, with all the respect, I'd have to strongly disagree. No matter what you say I will continue using prongs, because I've had excelent results with prongs. Yes, I also had it combined with positive reeforcement! I prefer a balance rather than kicking out a training method without trying it. 

When a dog is doing something wrong, you can't just use "positive reenforcement".

~Lyn:biggrin:


----------



## CorgiPaws

dogtrainer1507 said:


> I find people calling people bad trainers and morons offensive no matter where I'm at. Sometimes it's better to agree to disagree. Before someone does get hurt


I'm sorry you're sensitive to the topic, it wasn't my intention to offend. I was simply stating the things i feel make a trainer good, and the things i feel make a trainer bad. I was respectful in my approach, and not once did I get agressive. I said I FELT, based off of methods used, that someone who uses these devices is a poor trainer. That's how I feel. 


I don't mean to call anyone out on anything, but it seems like lately people are being incredibly sensitive to anything said on the forum. This is a forum, and people will disagree. This used to be a place where we could share our opinions and have healthy discussion, but lately there are people around that seem to think any time there are differing opinions it is "attacking people" and being "hurtful" when really it's just a discussion. Yes, the name calling is not necessary, but now I can't say the things i feel are good and bad for training? I certainly can't say the word "wolf" in the kibble section. There is not one thing that EVERY single person will agree on, so what the heck CAN I say? "Yes, i agree" to every post?


----------



## rawfeederr

Well guys, whatever, I really don't *care* what anyone says.

I know that the prong collar is what works for me, and like it or not, I'm gonna keep using it.

I KNOW how to use positive reinforcement. Do you know how many trainers I have contacted??

Don't even tell me that my dog doesn't have a bond with me. lmao!


If you think positive reinforcement works with EVERY DOG, come meet Tiger.

I know this is a forum and I know that not everyone's gonna agree. I didn't ask anyone to agree. Or for this war to begin!!! I was simply replying to someone's thread ("My addiction") and stated
"LOL!
Tiger only has an orange leash, orange collar, & silver prong collar. "

I didn't mean to offend anyone.. sorry if I did.


----------



## DaneMama

^^^ I wasn't offended at all by anyone, just a different opinion. People need to realize that we are just expressing our own opinions on the matter...not bashing, name calling or making people out to be horrible.

So, no offense taken in the slightest bit :biggrin:


----------



## rawfeederr

danemama08 said:


> ^^^ I wasn't offended at all by anyone, just a different opinion. People need to realize that we are just expressing our own opinions on the matter...not bashing, name calling or making people out to be horrible.
> 
> So, no offense taken in the slightest bit :biggrin:


No offense taken here either :smile::smile::smile:


----------



## spookychick13

I guess I would call myself a "clickery moron".

However I am confident my 11 month old puppy behaves better than 99.9% of the dogs I see come into my practice.
He can distance sit/stay, wait, down, shake (wave from a distance), roll over, and high five (jump up from a distance).
He passed obedience and puppy star top of his class and is the best performing dog in agility class. 

He never wore a choke or prong collar ever, I'm such a moron.

For the record, I also trained my african grey parrot, a cat and two horses with clickers.


----------



## rawfeederr

spookychick13 said:


> I guess I would call myself a "clickery moron".
> 
> However I am confident my 11 month old puppy behaves better than 99.9% of the dogs I see come into my practice.
> He can distance sit/stay, wait, down, shake (wave from a distance), roll over, and high five (jump up from a distance).
> He passed obedience and puppy star top of his class and is the best performing dog in agility class.
> 
> He never wore a choke or prong collar ever, I'm such a moron.
> 
> For the record, I also trained my african grey parrot, a cat and two horses with clickers.


Just because you don't use chock/prong collars, it doesn't mean your a moron.

Clickers might work for your dogs but it doesnt mean they will work for mine.

BTW, my dog can do all that too - sit/stay, wait, down, shake (wave from a distance), roll over, and high five, and more. Yep, I positive *&* negative reinforcement on that too!
And my dog also does Agility.


----------



## spookychick13

I admit I took offense to the 'clickery moron' comment, especially after all the work I've done with my animals. I pride myself on their intelligence and responsiveness, and rightly so.


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## DaneMama

spookychick13 said:


> I admit I took offense to the 'clickery moron' comment, especially after all the work I've done with my animals. I pride myself on their intelligence and responsiveness, and rightly so.


I did too...I was taken aback when someone, a newbie at that, posted something so bold and inappropriate. But at least they apologized for their comment :wink:


----------



## Sir

I just enjoy making fun of the prong collar at the dog park by asking if their owner is a canine dominatrix, with a smile on my face. :biggrin:


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## spookychick13

Sir said:


> I just enjoy making fun of the prong collar at the dog park by asking if their owner is a canine dominatrix, with a smile on my face. :biggrin:


LOL

Do you get a laugh out of people?


----------



## wags

rawfeederr said:


> The collar doesn't "dig" into the neck unless you pull hard. When I use mine, I do NOT pull on it at all unless I'm correcting. And even then, I just pop the leash gently. It feels uncomfortable to the dog.
> 
> They don't really "hurt". I've tried one on and pulled pretty hard, it really didn't cause any pain.
> 
> Victoria Stillwell? I'd rather not! lol


Gee after reading all the posts here, do I dare say anything about this subject anymore!
I have tried these on my upper arm its uncomfortable not that I cant handle it but then I had my hubby pull it a bit harder than I could on myself just to find out if it felt any differnt! Well for me it did! 
If you think about it you really dont know what the dog feels though with a prong! If you Opps pull the leash too hard maybe you dont have a dog who crys out in pain alot or maybe the dog is juts fine with the feeling of the prong on its neck whatever! I am not comfortable useing this type of collar that is my opinion. If your comfortable and you feel you know how to use this who am I to say you can't! Go for it! I will not use these type collars ever though! As for Victoria Stillwell, I love her calmness and her training ways. She has the gift for training in my opinion! Whether anyone agress thats fine if the disagree certainly their right to do this! I love Culture Clash a very great way of training and a wonderful read for anyone who cares to read it! Again agree to disagree~ that is what the forums all about! 
This thread has gotten alot of views from everyone and right so it should! We each can contribute something intelligent as to what we care for and dont care for. As for anyone having hard feelings no one should its just opinions on what each of us choose and like to use for our dogs!


----------



## spookychick13

wags: There is nothing wrong with a healthy debate and discussion, however name calling gets my hackles up. But whatever, to each their own I suppose.

As far as Victoria Stillwell goes, I like her a lot too! I think she's got a lot of excellent methods and advice.  As a lot of folks have said before, no one method or trainer is perfect, but I think as dog owners we have the obligation to educate ourselves on different methods and find what works best. Personally I think using pain and negative reinforcement on animals is just plain lazy.

Have you ever read Patricia B. McConnell's _The Other End of the Leash_ or _For the Love of a Dog_ ? Both very enlightening books on dog psychology,I really enjoy her works. 

Don't worry all you 'hardcore' types, she doesn't anthropomorphize dogs or anything of that nature...she references a lot of different sources as well. She is very open minded about her research on canine behavior and realizes it is a very 'sticky' subject.

I definitely have to check out _Culture Clash_, thank you for the recommendation!


----------



## wags

wags: There is nothing wrong with a healthy debate and discussion, however name calling gets my hackles up. But whatever, to each their own I suppose.
Dear Spoookychick13,
Where did I at any time in my post call anyone by any names?
I think you are a bit mistaken if you are telling me that I called anyone names here. I just dont get where you find anything about name calling in my post!


----------



## spookychick13

wags said:


> wags: There is nothing wrong with a healthy debate and discussion, however name calling gets my hackles up. But whatever, to each their own I suppose.
> Dear Spoookychick13,
> Where did I at any time in my post call anyone by any names?
> I think you are a bit mistaken if you are telling me that I called anyone names here. I just dont get where you find anything about name calling in my post!


Not you!! I was referring to the new person who said something about "Clickery Morons." Sorry for the confusion.


----------



## spookychick13

Magic Lyn :3 said:


> Thanks Mariah! I agree 100% with you agreeing 100%: TEE-HEE.
> 
> I wonder if some clickery moron will reply to me?
> 
> ~Lyn :biggrin:


This message here, is what I was referring to.

Clearly looking for a fight, and it annoyed me, but he/she or whoever doesn't seem to be back. Fine by me.


----------



## DaneMama

wags said:


> wags: There is nothing wrong with a healthy debate and discussion, however name calling gets my hackles up. But whatever, to each their own I suppose.
> Dear Spoookychick13,
> Where did I at any time in my post call anyone by any names?
> I think you are a bit mistaken if you are telling me that I called anyone names here. I just dont get where you find anything about name calling in my post!


She wasn't calling you out at all wags...she was mentioning that others have resorted to that, unfortunately. I think she actually like your post very much and was telling you that :biggrin: :wink:


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## wags

The way the post was addressed I though it was directed at me! I am sorry for any confusion on my part! No hard feelings I hope! :redface:


----------



## wags

I dont pay attention to things like this Magic lyn3 people say! I figure it this way when I'm on the web if I am writing something and I couldnt say it to the person face to face over coffee then I shouldnt write it at all haha! Everything I say here I could say to someone personally face to face with no regrets and no controversy hmmmm hopefully ! As for someone saying clickey morons(obviously knowing nothing about clicker training) that is something not well thought out by them. I wonder if they would say it face to face with anyone (well maybe) but not without reprecussions haha! Oh well whoever that is really is not contributing to the thread!


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## spookychick13

I agree.
If someone called me a moron to my face...well that's a different story.

It wouldn't end well for them.

Of course cowards can hide behind fake persona's.

I also say what I would say in person as well.


----------



## Sir

spookychick13 said:


> LOL
> 
> Do you get a laugh out of people?


Yes, they do.


----------



## wags

I just read on your avatar~your from Wisonsin I'm in Illinois! Ha we are neighbors!:smile:Snow Snow Snow! I love wisconsin! We have gone camping there many many times!


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## spookychick13

wags said:


> I just read on your avatar~your from Wisonsin I'm in Illinois! Ha we are neighbors!:smile:Snow Snow Snow! I love wisconsin! We have gone camping there many many times!


Boo snow!

Where do you camp?


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## wags

spookychick13 said:


> Boo snow!
> 
> Where do you camp?


I have not camped in a while now! I miss it. we use to have a pop up with all the fancy smancy stuff ha toilet, shower, air conditioning heater ! We thought at that time it was wonderful even though it was a pop up!
We generally went to state parks like in the southeast area. Potowatami, Penninsual state park. Now that was our favorite we went there quite alot and loved it there! Kinda wish we didnt sell the camper but what happened is our youngest just well wasn't into it anymore and we got tired of cranking up the camper as my hubby would complain no one was helping haha! We have also and I can't remember where it was (I have to ask) rented cabins there and also in Michigan that was also alot of fun! Enjoyed those days and miss them now!


----------



## spookychick13

Awww. 

Well maybe again one day!



My family had a motorhome while I was growing up, I loved that thing! We went to Canada every summer, it was awesome.


----------



## rawfeederr

wags said:


> Gee after reading all the posts here, do I dare say anything about this subject anymore!
> I have tried these on my upper arm its uncomfortable not that I cant handle it but then I had my hubby pull it a bit harder than I could on myself just to find out if it felt any differnt! Well for me it did!
> If you think about it you really dont know what the dog feels though with a prong! If you Opps pull the leash too hard maybe you dont have a dog who crys out in pain alot or maybe the dog is juts fine with the feeling of the prong on its neck whatever! I am not comfortable useing this type of collar that is my opinion. If your comfortable and you feel you know how to use this who am I to say you can't! Go for it! I will not use these type collars ever though! As for Victoria Stillwell, I love her calmness and her training ways. She has the gift for training in my opinion! Whether anyone agress thats fine if the disagree certainly their right to do this! I love Culture Clash a very great way of training and a wonderful read for anyone who cares to read it! Again agree to disagree~ that is what the forums all about!
> This thread has gotten alot of views from everyone and right so it should! We each can contribute something intelligent as to what we care for and dont care for. As for anyone having hard feelings no one should its just opinions on what each of us choose and like to use for our dogs!



I didn't say you had to use it, and I wasn't trying to make anyone use it.
I personally don't like any TV Trainers.

I wish I would have never even mentioned that I have a prong.


----------



## rawfeederr

wags said:


> I dont pay attention to things like this Magic lyn3 people say! I figure it this way when I'm on the web if I am writing something and I couldnt say it to the person face to face over coffee then I shouldnt write it at all haha! Everything I say here I could say to someone personally face to face with no regrets and no controversy hmmmm hopefully ! As for someone saying clickey morons(obviously knowing nothing about clicker training) that is something not well thought out by them. I wonder if they would say it face to face with anyone (well maybe) but not without reprecussions haha! Oh well whoever that is really is not contributing to the thread!



How do you know that she doesn't know anything about clicker training? 

I think that Lyn probably would say it to someone's face lol.


----------



## rawfeederr

spookychick13 said:


> Personally I think using pain and negative reinforcement on animals is just plain lazy



I have tried other methods, and yes I tried them correctly, but it didn't work out.

BTW What entitles you to call Lyn & I lazy? The fact that we use a useful, humane training tool?


----------



## Broken

Positivedogtraining.com states of prong collars:



> In addition to the fact that the dog training prong collar can result in having negative effects on a dog, it has also been known to have absolutely no impact on the behavior of a dog at all, with the exception of increasing the dog's pure will, and *pain tolerance* level. Many dogs, after having the prong collar used on them for a period of time, eventually *build up an incredible tolerance to the painful pinching* effect of the collar, and as a result become even more difficult to walk or train.


Dictionary.com's definition of "humane":



> characterized by tenderness, compassion, and sympathy for people and animals, esp. for the suffering or distressed: humane treatment of horses.


I struggle to understand how a training method known to cause pain signficant enough to build up a dog's pain tolerance could possibly be classified as "humane".


----------



## DaneMama

rawfeederr said:


> BTW What entitles you to call Lyn & I lazy? The fact that we use a useful, humane training tool?


She is entitled to have opinion...which is that people who use training tools like a prong collar are lazy. Which I know that lots of people think that, me included. Which generally is true most of the time. Most people don't go through all the lengths that you say you have with positive reinforcement training done correctly, before using these tools as a last resort. 

People want fast results nowadays and these tools typically work very fast because dogs don't like pain or discomfort on any level...who does? And lets be honest here, the prong collar works because it DOES cause discomfort to the dog, there is no denying that. So you can say that we all have different opinions on whether a prong collar is humane as well, I don't think they are in the slightest bit. I agree to disagree with you on the subject of prong collars.

There is nothing wrong with stating an opinion here, as long as it is respectful. I think that saying someone is lazy isn't necessarily the nicest thing to say...but it certainly isn't name calling like saying someone is a moron. I'm lazy about many, many things so don't get the impression that I am saying that I'm perfect by any means!


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## harrkim120

Words can be what you make of them. "Sticks and stones may break my bones, but words will never hurt me."

Hey, I got a lazy Boston Terrier because I'm lazy, and I'll admit it!!! :biggrin:

Sorry...totally irrelevant. Just trying to lighten the mood. lol


----------



## RawFedDogs

harrkim120 said:


> Words can be what you make of them. "Sticks and stones may break my bones, but words will never hurt me."


"Stick and stones may break my bones, but whips and chains excite me!" ... Sorry, I couldn't resist. I'm going to bed now. :biggrin::biggrin::biggrin:


----------



## harrkim120

RawFedDogs said:


> "Stick and stones may break my bones, but whips and chains excite me!" ... Sorry, I couldn't resist. I'm going to bed now. :biggrin::biggrin::biggrin:


Perfect example of my point. lol


----------



## whiteleo

Hey, I work in the public transit industry and we regularly have disabled riders aboard our buses who have certified services dogs, I believe I've seen 2 prong collars on those dogs, so tell me WT*?. I think that certain dogs react to certain training differently, just like my many years of training horses, you never could train the same way twice, although I never reverted to the ways of the big time trainers who needed to win.


----------



## Magic Lyn :3

spookychick13 said:


> This message here, is what I was referring to.
> 
> Clearly looking for a fight, and it annoyed me, but he/she or whoever doesn't seem to be back. Fine by me.


I'm sorry. I wasn't feeling very well. I didn't knew you would take it so seriously. If you do, then I'm very sorry and won't repeat it. Mutt invited me to this and it certainly wasn't for messing around with users... -.-

I respect your opinion, if that helps, don't want to start any fight. 

BTW: Out of topic, but I WOULD totally say it to someone's face if there was any need. xD


~Lyn :biggrin:


----------



## wags

rawfeederr said:


> How do you know that she doesn't know anything about clicker training?
> 
> I think that Lyn probably would say it to someone's face lol.


Well, if she knows alot about this subject then I guess she does not care for clicker training or understand the concept of it. But calling names is not nice in the post. So I don't think that should have been done as well. Because someone enjoys training their dogs and has success in the clicker technique doesnt make them anything less than smart and appreciative of the technique!
I am glad this is something she could say in face to face in a conversation~ that is what it should be here just like you see the person and are speaking with them face to face! not hiding behind your user name!:wink:


----------



## CorgiPaws

If you have to use ANY kind of device long term, it is NOT a "training tool."

A training tool, like a clicker, is used during the praining process, but the dog learns the desired behavior, and the proper tool is not needed long term.

How can you call the prong a training tool? Training implies learning, obviously no learning is going on to continue to need the prong, therefore no training.


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## dogtrainer1507

You can use a prong collar short term but most people don't but I have seen it done before. I'm just curious of those of you who have used a clicker what is your response if the dog doesn't do what you ask it too? I guess the right way to ask that question is what would you do to let the dog know your not happy it ignored you? I'm just wondering.


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## spookychick13

dogtrainer1507 said:


> You can use a prong collar short term but most people don't but I have seen it done before. I'm just curious of those of you who have used a clicker what is your response if the dog doesn't do what you ask it too? I guess the right way to ask that question is what would you do to let the dog know your not happy it ignored you? I'm just wondering.


Personally, I can tell when the animal I am working with is getting tired or distracted, and I will tone it down to a simple trick and end the session on a positive note.

I have found the animals I work with to be so enthusiastic about the training sessions that I very rarely have to deal with them ignoring me. When I'm doing agility work with Flip and he does something wrong, I tell him 'try again' and make him do it again. If he loses his mind and goes nuts, running all over the course, I call him back and end it there, then wait for the other dogs in my class to do the particular course, then try it again with him. Taking him off the course is the best way of letting him know that his running around isn't the desired behavior.

With clicker training, the clicker itself is just a bridge, so it is to be phased out. I haven't used the clicker with my bird in ages...but she does still make the clicking noise herself on occasion.


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## harrkim120

dogtrainer1507 said:


> You can use a prong collar short term but most people don't but I have seen it done before. I'm just curious of those of you who have used a clicker what is your response if the dog doesn't do what you ask it too? I guess the right way to ask that question is what would you do to let the dog know your not happy it ignored you? I'm just wondering.


A lot of the times a word, phrase, or sound is added to show disapproval such as "try again" or "wrong" or that ever famous "ssshhhhttt" (or however you would spell it lol)

Wow...incase you didn't notice, it's pretty apparent that the word of the day is "or." :biggrin:


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## harrkim120

spookychick13 said:


> Personally, I can tell when the animal I am working with is getting tired or distracted, and I will tone it down to a simple trick and end the session on a positive note.
> 
> I have found the animals I work with to be so enthusiastic about the training sessions that I very rarely have to deal with them ignoring me. When I'm doing agility work with Flip and he does something wrong, I tell him 'try again' and make him do it again. If he loses his mind and goes nuts, running all over the course, I call him back and end it there, then wait for the other dogs in my class to do the particular course, then try it again with him. Taking him off the course is the best way of letting him know that his running around isn't the desired behavior.
> 
> With clicker training, the clicker itself is just a bridge, so it is to be phased out. I haven't used the clicker with my bird in ages...but she does still make the clicking noise herself on occasion.


Awwww...beat me to it. :frown: lol


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## spookychick13

Hehe, sorry.

Flip definitely knows the word 'no' as well.


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## dogtrainer1507

just curious everyone opinion seems to vary so i was just curious.


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## DaneMama

If I notice that my dogs are ignoring me, I ignore them. I don't reinforce any "bad" or undesired begaviors. Even negative reinforcement can "reward" a dog out of sheer attention alone. Depends on the dog. With Emmy if I show her any kind of " attention/affection that is reward enough, even if it's telling her off. I tend to just walk away if my dogs ignore me. Dogs HATE to be ignored most of the time, they cherish attention and most of all positive affection.


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## RawFedDogs

It depends on the situation but most likely in a training situation, I turn my back and ignore the dog for a few minutes ... very effective if the dog really loves you. Again, depending in the situation, a "time out" is called for. Time out is the most drastic form of punishment I use. It lasts no more than 2 minutes. Done right, it is also very effective.


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## harrkim120

RawFedDogs said:


> Again, depending in the situation, a "time out" is called for. Time out is the most drastic form of punishment I use. It lasts no more than 2 minutes. Done right, it is also very effective.


Mr. RFD, could you please elaborate on this "time out?" Thanks :biggrin:


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## RawFedDogs

harrkim120 said:


> Mr. RFD, could you please elaborate on this "time out?" Thanks :biggrin:


Sure, no problem. When the dog displays a behavior that calls for a time out, he is immediately taken to his crate. He is not fussed at. Take him to his crate while displaying a neutral demeanor. Or if he knows how, he is just told to go to his crate. After the crate door is close, walk away without saying anything. It's best if the crate is isolated from other people so he will have a chance to think, "what did I do to cause this to happen?" 

After 2 minutes, return to the crate and with a neutral demeanor, open the door and let him out. No fussing, no praising. Hopefully he will return and immediately begin doing the behavior again that got him in time out to begin with. If he does, its right back in the crate again for another 2 minute time out. The shorter the period of time between subsequent time outs, the faster the learning takes place.

It's important that the time out be initiated immediately after the undesirable behavior begins. Putting him in time out 10 seconds after he stopped that behavior won't teach him anything. Putting him in time out only sometimes when he does the behavior won't teach anything. It must be done immediately when the behavior begins and it must be done every time that behavior happens.

Remember that there is no negative response on your part except to calmly put him in the crate. It's important that the dog doesn't get upset during this. Learning takes place while the dog is using the logical side of the brain. When he is upset or emotional, he begins thinking with the emotional side of the brain and learning doesn't take place as well under those conditions.


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## harrkim120

RawFedDogs said:


> Sure, no problem. When the dog displays a behavior that calls for a time out, he is immediately taken to his crate. He is not fussed at. Take him to his crate while displaying a neutral demeanor. Or if he knows how, he is just told to go to his crate. After the crate door is close, walk away without saying anything. It's best if the crate is isolated from other people so he will have a chance to think, "what did I do to cause this to happen?"
> 
> After 2 minutes, return to the crate and with a neutral demeanor, open the door and let him out. No fussing, no praising. Hopefully he will return and immediately begin doing the behavior again that got him in time out to begin with. If he does, its right back in the crate again for another 2 minute time out. The shorter the period of time between subsequent time outs, the faster the learning takes place.
> 
> It's important that the time out be initiated immediately after the undesirable behavior begins. Putting him in time out 10 seconds after he stopped that behavior won't teach him anything. Putting him in time out only sometimes when he does the behavior won't teach anything. It must be done immediately when the behavior begins and it must be done every time that behavior happens.
> 
> Remember that there is no negative response on your part except to calmly put him in the crate. It's important that the dog doesn't get upset during this. Learning takes place while the dog is using the logical side of the brain. When he is upset or emotional, he begins thinking with the emotional side of the brain and learning doesn't take place as well under those conditions.



Thank you. :smile:

Another question though...what type of behaviors are the dogs engaging in that would merit a time out?


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## DaneMama

I personally think that using a crate for timeout is a bad idea. When crate training you don't want to associate the crate with any sort of negative feelings which includes time outs. Just simply ignoring the dogs suffices as "punishment." Usually people don't keep their crates in close enough proximity to make a timeout feasable because it just takes too long to even get to the crate as fast as possible. You say to take the dog immediately to his crate, but if the crate happens to be a 30 second walk away, the dog is not going to make the connection. And it's not really practical to have crates everywhere within a few second walk to accomodate a timeout area. 

Just simply walk away. Do a time out where ever you happen to be by ignoring the dog. That way they don't think they are going to a time out anytime you take them to their crate, because crates are used for keeping dogs confined while left alone or overnight by the majority of people. Crates should be the safe place for a dog. They should be able to enjoy being in their crates. They are den animals by instinct.

I suppose you can use a crate just for the sole purpose of a time out place, but I still don't think is a good idea. There might be a time when you have to kennel the dog on emergency and have no other choice. In this case the dog should know that kennels are a safe place. There are dogs that will injure themselves trying to get out of a kennel. Most likely these dogs were never socialized to kennels early on to know that they are a safe place.

I personally think every dog should be kennel trained, no matter what because it might come in handy one day.


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## harrkim120

danemama08 said:


> I personally think that using a crate for timeout is a bad idea. When crate training you don't want to associate the crate with any sort of negative feelings which includes time outs. Just simply ignoring the dogs suffices as "punishment." Usually people don't keep their crates in close enough proximity to make a timeout feasable because it just takes too long to even get to the crate as fast as possible. You say to take the dog immediately to his crate, but if the crate happens to be a 30 second walk away, the dog is not going to make the connection. And it's not really practical to have crates everywhere within a few second walk to accomodate a timeout area.
> 
> Just simply walk away. Do a time out where ever you happen to be by ignoring the dog. That way they don't think they are going to a time out anytime you take them to their crate, because crates are used for keeping dogs confined while left alone or overnight by the majority of people. Crates should be the safe place for a dog. They should be able to enjoy being in their crates. They are den animals by instinct.
> 
> I suppose you can use a crate just for the sole purpose of a time out place, but I still don't think is a good idea. There might be a time when you have to kennel the dog on emergency and have no other choice. In this case the dog should know that kennels are a safe place. There are dogs that will injure themselves trying to get out of a kennel. Most likely these dogs were never socialized to kennels early on to know that they are a safe place.
> 
> I personally think every dog should be kennel trained, no matter what because it might come in handy one day.


Oh, I totally agree with everything you said...I just wanted to hear what RFD had to say on the topic.:biggrin: I tell the same things to all my classes, but the other trainer I work with recommends to use the crate for "time outs" as well. So I just wanted to pick the brain of someone else with the same opinion.


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## RawFedDogs

harrkim120 said:


> Another question though...what type of behaviors are the dogs engaging in that would merit a time out?


Any behavior that you want to stop and the dog just doesn't understand that the particular behavior is unacceptable. These would include jumping up on people, barking at things out the window, chewing on unacceptable items, chasing the cat, stealing food off the table, or any other behavior you want stopped. Yes, there are other ways to stop each of these behaviors. Time out is just one option. Timeouts often are successful when other methods fail.

A time out is the most serious punishment I give a dog and they never last more than two minutes. I never yell (well most of the time :smile, never jerk the leash, throw things at the dog, hit or kick the dog in any way, roll, or use any other form of physical punishment. They just aren't necessary.

It is very very rare that a dog misbehaves intentionally. Mostly they just don't understand people rules and don't know what they are doing is unaccptable. Most of what we call misbehaving is actually very acceptable in the canine world. Dogs must be taught the rules of living in a human world and I think time out is a very good teaching tool.

Dogs are very good at understanding that any behavior causes something to happen. That something may be positive or negative. Once he understands that X behavior causes at time out, X behavior will cease to exist for that dog. Often it takes several time outs for a dog to narrow down exactly which behavior caused the time out. Thats why a time out must be initiated the instant the behavior begins and must happen every time that behavior happens. It helps the dog narrow down exactly what behavior caused the time out.


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## RawFedDogs

danemama08 said:


> I personally think that using a crate for timeout is a bad idea. When crate training you don't want to associate the crate with any sort of negative feelings which includes time outs.


2 minutes in the crate won't teach the dog that the crate is a bad place. You are not fussing at him while you are taking him to the crate nor when he is in the crate no you let him back out again less than 2 minutes later. I had many clients use the crate for time outs and it didn't affect the dogs attitude towards the crate negatively at all.

*ETA:* It might be different if you used 2 or 3 or 4 hour timeouts. But 2 minutes is NBD in that regard.




> Just simply ignoring the dogs suffices as "punishment."


In my training days, I taught that method also. A time out is when you need to excalate your efforts a little.



> Usually people don't keep their crates in close enough proximity to make a timeout feasable because it just takes too long to even get to the crate as fast as possible. You say to take the dog immediately to his crate, but if the crate happens to be a 30 second walk away, the dog is not going to make the connection.


When you stop the dog's behavior and start moving him toward the crate, I think he has associated going to the crate in his mind. The critical time is when you actually stop the behavior. 

I have no problem with using a bathroom or a laundry room, or a bedroom as a time out place. All you want is for the dog to be isolated for a couple of minutes to give him time to think. You can use the closest empty room where the dog will be alone for a couple of minutes.



> I personally think every dog should be kennel trained, no matter what because it might come in handy one day.


I own one huge crate. It is disassembled out in the garage, sored up on the rafters. :smile: I use a bedroom for timeouts. The funny thing is, I never need to use a time out unless we have company. 

Sometimes Abby will be excited when company comes and I will just say her name. She stops, and goes to the bedroom without me having to say or do anything else. After a few minutes, she comes back out and is calmed down. BTW: The bedroom is where she sleeps at the foot of our bed. She goes back there and lays on her bed for a while. It's usually more than 2 minutes but I never close the door so she can come back out when she has calmed down. She just goes to the bed room, lays down a few minutes and comes back out on her own. I am proud of her for that. :smile:


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## dogtrainer1507

guess I agree with some of the things said and others I don't . Dogs in a pack do correct and don't put up with unwanted behavior in my house I don't put up with this either and my dogs respect that. I can see how those ways of training would work on some dogs but not on all dogs. And are you guys talking about just training with your own person dogs or people who have paid money to have you train their dog? If it's the latter then what would you do if you got a client that would only wNt to use a prong collar or wouldn't use a clicker would you not train their dog because they wouldn't do training your way? I'm just curious. Because there are people who are like that. So I'm just curious if your training is part of your lively hood or just something you do personally.


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## rawfeederr

Okay, I am back. But I am so done with this thread.

I do not care what anyone has to say about prong collars. I really, truly, do not. I know that they work for me, and that I'll continue to use them.

I didn't call anyone names.

I have tons of things I'd like to add to this thread but I know that there's no point.. it will just get drowned out by rants about positive reinforcement.

If anyone wants to know anymore about the prong/negative training/why I use it/etc., please PM me, Yahoo Messenger me, or email me.

See everyone in the raw feeding section! :smile:


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## notilloc

I have to say that in the last two pages I have learned a lot about training dogs. I have never used a prong collar. To me I have felt that I do not have the training experience to use one and it just doesnt seem right to me. I do occasionally yell at my dogs when they misbehave and when putting them in time out am usually very angy with them and that is probably why it doesnt work for me. I thank everyone for informing me of a couple new ways of training. I have been trying positive reinforcement and it is very difficult for me because i am kind of a hot head at times. lol I will work on keeping my cool and see how my dogs react to it. I know that the way I am training my dogs is not the right way because they are extremely loving to my gf and they love me but it isnt the same bond that they have with my gf who is much more calm than me and they really seem to respect that.


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## RawFedDogs

dogtrainer1507 said:


> Dogs in a pack do correct and don't put up with unwanted behavior in my house I don't put up with this either and my dogs respect that.


Yes, dogs in packs do correct. They are dogs and they correct in a different way than humans do. It's like CM who says that jabbing a dog in the neck with your fingers simulates a mothers bite on the neck. Baloney. If you want to simulate a mother's bite, then bite the dog on the neck yourself. Dogs who are properly taught never need correcting. Dogs rarely misbehave just for the fun of it. They misbehave because they don't know any better. Once they know the proper behavior, it has always been my experience that they will then behave properly.

When you "correct" a dog, you are only showing him what not to do. You aren't showing him proper behavior. Teaching proper behavior eliminates the need to "correct".



> I can see how those ways of training would work on some dogs but not on all dogs.


Never found a dog it wouldn't work on, nor any wild animals. If you can't train with 100% positive reinforcement then either you haven't learned how or the dog is smarter than you are. It often takes thought and planning to teach some dogs proper behaior but it can be done.



> And are you guys talking about just training with your own person dogs or people who have paid money to have you train their dog?


I'm talking about being a professional trainer for 15 years. Admittedly, I wasn't a positive trainer during the first 7 or 8 years of that 15. But once I learned a better way, I never trained with compulsion again. I have trained several other species of animals besides dogs.



> If it's the latter then what would you do if you got a client that would only wNt to use a prong collar or wouldn't use a clicker would you not train their dog because they wouldn't do training your way?


I never insisted on a clicker. A clicker is a handy tool but you can train with positive reinforcement without a clicker. If someone insisted on using a prong or even a choke chain, I told them to find another trainer. In my last 4 or 5 years of training I probably turned down more clients than I accepted for various reasons.

I charged a good bit of money to train but I wasn't financially dependent on training for a living. I have never counted the dogs I have trained but I'm sure its way over 1,000.


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## harrkim120

RawFedDogs said:


> I have no problem with using a bathroom or a laundry room, or a bedroom as a time out place. All you want is for the dog to be isolated for a couple of minutes to give him time to think. You can use the closest empty room where the dog will be alone for a couple of minutes.


What would you do if the dog you're working with is the type to scratch at the door while it's shut? 

What if the dog is crying? Would you keep him in there until he's quiet? 

What if you go to let the dog out, and catch him chewing on your $200 comforter? 

Feel free to elaborate on any other circumstance that could happen that I didn't think of. :wink::biggrin:


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## CorgiPaws

harrkim120 said:


> What would you do if the dog you're working with is the type to scratch at the door while it's shut?


I personally NEVER,under ANY circumstance give into this, I don't know if that's the right or wrong thing to do, but jumping on, pawing at, or scratching the door is probably the one behavior that I absolutely can not stand at all. 
In the beginning stages of this I only expect them to stop for maybe three seconds before getting what they want (being let out/in) but as they learn, the time is lengthened until they learn to sit patiently at the door. At 6 months old, Annie is finally getting it, and thank God because one more frantic fit of her throwing herself at the back door, and she'd drive me nuts. lol.



harrkim120 said:


> What if the dog is crying? Would you keep him in there until he's quiet?


I do. I feel like even though being put away is the "punnishment" for unwanted behavior #1, letting them out in the middle of a fit is reinforcing the the crying, so you might be helping one bad behavior to end, but you're encouraging another to continue, which I see no point in doing. 
Mine catch on fast, that if you do [insert unwanted behavior here] you get a time out, and that time out is over as soon as you be good. They aren't ever on time out for more than about two minutes if they're good the whole time. Any longer and they seem to forget why they're in there in the first place.



harrkim120 said:


> What if you go to let the dog out, and catch him chewing on your $200 comforter?


Then I deal with THAT behavior as if it is entirely unrelated to the previous time out. I don't see how they'd be connected?


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## harrkim120

CorgiPaws said:


> Then I deal with THAT behavior as if it is entirely unrelated to the previous time out. I don't see how they'd be connected?


They aren't really. RFD was just saying that he has no problem using an unoccupied room for the time out. So I was just picking his brain asking what he would do under certain circumstances. I'm not a user of the time out, but I know of a few dogs that when shoved in a room would be like "Oooooo....fluffy comforter." :biggrin:lol


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## RawFedDogs

harrkim120 said:


> They aren't really. RFD was just saying that he has no problem using an unoccupied room for the time out. So I was just picking his brain asking what he would do under certain circumstances. I'm not a user of the time out, but I know of a few dogs that when shoved in a room would be like "Oooooo....fluffy comforter." :biggrin:lol


Then with a dog like that, you don't use a room with a fluffy comforter. You dogproof a room to use. Prolly a bathroom or laundry room. If you think hard enough you can come up with two dozen "what if"s. When a "what if" arrises, you use your head to get around it. :smile: You are the human. You are supposed to be smarter than the dog. :biggrin:


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## dogtrainer1507

So I'm guessing those first 7-8 years you didn't just use negative I'm guessing you mixed both. All I can say is at least you had the luxury of denying clients because they wouldn't do it your way. Most people don't have that luxury. I use a lot of different methods mixed together and it's customized to the person and the dog. You want to say I'm a bad trainer be my guest. Doesn't bother me in the least. You would be the first. But if it's only because I don't do things your way I feel sorry for you RFD. Not every client can grasp or wants to do or will take the time that it's takes to do strictly positive and most people rely on even them for cash flow. Your not only looking at the dog you have to look at the people and what they are able and willing to do. Not only did you miss out on money--which I guess you didn't care about but in the long run you missed an opportunity maybe to get them to see your way eventually. Just something to think about.


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## CorgiPaws

harrkim120 said:


> They aren't really. RFD was just saying that he has no problem using an unoccupied room for the time out. So I was just picking his brain asking what he would do under certain circumstances. I'm not a user of the time out, but I know of a few dogs that when shoved in a room would be like "Oooooo....fluffy comforter." :biggrin:lol


Oh I misunderstood that connection I guess. 
I use my half bathroom downstairs for little time outs, nothing in there for them to ruin even if they wanted to... but luckily my three aren't destructive at all.
If I had a destructive dog, I'd work around that, and teach what is ok to chew, and what is not.


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