# Mateo Needs Surgery



## NewYorkDogue (Sep 27, 2011)

Just came back from the vet, where they took x-rays of his shoulders, and front leg joints. He had been limping for awhile, usually only after rough play or running a lot. I originally thought it was due to rough play (with the Newf that's in my sig pic), because that's when I noticed it first. 

Nothing seemed swollen, and he did not limp when he walked or ran; only when he sort of "trotted' along. After some rest and extra time for it to heal (which it didn't), I took him in for x-rays. 

The condition he has is called Osteochondrosis of the right shoulder. Apparently common in young, giant breed dogs, found more in males than females, and has a genetic component. My vet advised surgery (which, apparently can be done arthroscopically) at the Animal Medical Center, on the east side of town. 

This just sucks. But, I am going to move forward and do what I need to do, sooner rather than later. Yeah, finances are an issue, but I will beg, borrow, steal to have him get the care he needs. (Problem is, my work is slow and I owe the IRS a big chunk of change...).

Meanwhile, I have a bottle of Rimadyl now to give him, and will probably see the orthopedist at the AMC next week or so. Mateo doesn't show that he is in pain; still loves to play and interact with his friends at the park. Stoic guy.

Does anybody have any experience with this condition? Hopefully, they can scrape away what they need to on the shoulder and he will fully recover with no ill effects.

This is my hope and prayer.


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## creek817 (Feb 18, 2012)

I'm so sorry =( I have no good advice or experience with that, but we are all pulling for Mateo! I know he will be just fine =) Keep us posted.


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## GoingPostal (Sep 5, 2011)

Yuck! My friends female mastiff had that and had surgery, she seems to move fine from what I've seen.


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## Sprocket (Oct 4, 2011)

Bummer :frown:

I know you will do right by him, even if it does break the bank.


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## Liz (Sep 27, 2010)

This is info I found on the condition. Have you contacted his breeder about this. They really should have this covered in his contract. This has a highly hereditary component though large breeds are very susceptible under the best of circumstances. There are also a few herbal remedies to prevent further damage while you save for surgery or research some more. I will post them at the end of this but I would definitely call your boy's breeder first and see what they can do to help you with this. I am sorry you have to deal with this issue.

Osteochondrosis is a form of developmental orthopedic disease that involves a local or generalized failure of endochondral ossification affecting the epiphyseal and/or metaphyseal cartilage. Larger breeds of dog have a genetic predisposition towards the condition, which results from rapid growth. (The pain from osteochondrosis is similar to the “growing pains” experienced by adolescents.)
Areas most commonly affected by osteochondrosis include the shoulder, elbow, stifle and hock in young dogs. Osteochondrosis can occur bilaterally and may involve several joints. There are several types of osteochondrosis:
Conditions that affect the forelimbs include osteochondritis dessicans (OD) of the elbow or shoulder, fragmented coronoid process (FCP), and ununited anconeal process (UAP). When the elbows are affected, these conditions are often referred to as simply “elbow dysplasia.” Osteochondrosis affecting the hind limbs is less common.
Although osteochondrosis is not a type of arthritis, it frequently leads to degenerative joint disease.

Vitamin C: Vitamin C has been studied clinically in animals. Brown (1994), Berg (1990), and Newman (1995) reported on the benefits of vitamin C in the treatment of degenerative joint disease and movement in dogs and in horses. Belfield (198) reported on the beneficial effects of using vitamin C in treatment and prevention of hip dysplasia in dogs.
Botanical Cox2 inhibitors: Botanical Cox2 inhibitors have been shown to have antioxidative and antiinflammatory effects. Botanical Cox 2 inhibitors offer the benefit of inflammation reduction without the inherent side effects of Cox2 medications.

*H97 HipGuard*: Contains achyranthes (Niu xi), aconite / chuan (Chuan wu), angelica (Bai zhi), angelica root (Dang gui), astragalus (Huang qi), atractylodes (Cang zhu), cinnamon (Rou gui), citrus (Chen pi), corydalis (Yan hu suo), curcuma (Yu jin), dioscorea (Chuan shan long), dipsacus (Xu duan), dragon’s blood (Xue jie), drynaria (Gu sui bu), eucommia bark (Du Zhong), eupolyphaga (Tu bie chong), jujube (Da zao), lycopodium (Shen jin cao), mastic (Ru xiang), morinda (Ba ji tian), myrrh (Mo yao), pubescent angelica root (Du huo), white atractylodes (Bai zhu), and white peony (Bai shao). The herbs not mentioned above (under Appropriate Chinese Herbs) help increase the efficacy of the formula.


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## NewYorkDogue (Sep 27, 2011)

Liz, my contract with the breeder is guaranteed against death, ..."due to major congenital health defects (heart, kidney and liver) for one year." So, that's it.

I will try and contact the breeder within the next few days just so I can get her input on this, whether or not she's dealt with this before (most likely); and info on her experience with the surgery. I'll let you know, just fwiw...

It's scary; but we'll soldier through, whatever needs to be done. Fortunately, it appears to be manifest in only the right shoulder; the other joints look perfect.

Thank you for the info on Vit. C, and the H97 HipGuard (is there a website for this?) How much Vit. C would you give, per day?

Also, I just found this: What is Recovery SA - award-winning natural pet supplement that promotes healing and pain relief 

Have you heard of this/what do you think? It does include vitamin C in the formula, as well.

Thanks for any further input- helps a lot!


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

what you're talking about and what liz is talking about are two different approaches ....
modalities of palliative support

i would take the one liz recommends and give vitamin c plus a probiotic to make sure he's in top shape for surgery....

i don't know what liz would say, but he's a big boy....at least 1000 mg to start.....NOW has a decent one that isn't expensive and has rose hip in it.

i am so sorry that my boy has to be operated on....what else has the vet said? that it's arthroscopic is good news....does the vet think this will be a cure?

http://zooveterinary.com/complementary-medicine/osteochondrosis#chinese-herbal-medicine


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## Kat (Jul 12, 2011)

I am sorry to hear about Mateo! I hope everything will go well with the surgery and that he heals quickly, and most importantly that it doesnt start up somewhere else. Good luck, sending healing vibes Mateo's way!


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## NewYorkDogue (Sep 27, 2011)

magicre said:


> what you're talking about and what liz is talking about are two different approaches ....
> modalities of palliative support
> 
> i would take the one liz recommends and give vitamin c plus a probiotic to make sure he's in top shape for surgery....
> ...


I just looked up Natural solutions for the HipGuard product... turns out they are located just out of NYC, in Long Island. I will email them. 

Thank you. 

You know, Mateo has always been known for his "shoulder roll" when he plays. He has this move where he sort of drops his head to the ground and rolls over his shoulder so that the rest of his body just flips over. Really cracks me up-- and I used to say the I hoped he would stay as flexible as he gets older. Now I wonder if he has been doing damage to his shoulder from doing this over and over, so many times...


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## frogdog (Aug 10, 2011)

Thinking of Mateo and you....sending puppy prayers. 
I hope surgery goes well and keep us informed of his progress.


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## Liz (Sep 27, 2010)

I will be looking up the best amount for vitamin C but starting at 1000 would be good. if you need to up it I will let you know. How much does Mateo weigh?


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## DaneMama (Jun 27, 2008)

I'm so sorry to hear of this with Mateo....OCD is not that common but it is seen in many larger breed dogs who are young. I highly recommend getting the procedure done ASAP because the less damage that is done to that joint the better. Most younger dogs I've seen go through it bounce right back to normal quickly after the initial resting after surgery. Definitely worth the price and time he'll spend out on medical rest. 

I've always given my Dane girls about 1500mg of Vitamin C when needed since they're all about 100 pounds or so. I would also give milk thistle to support the liver while giving Rimadyl and through surgery for those drugs. You want that liver functioning well for all that! 

Keep us posted on how things go!


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## AveryandAudrey (Sep 20, 2010)

Poor buddy, I hope it all goes well. I just love big guy Mateo!


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## whiteleo (Sep 7, 2008)

I'm so sorry...I always recommend warm water therapy for dogs who have a potential for surgery...Good Luck and I'll be thinking of you both!
_Canine Hydrotherapy_ | Animal Massage Guide


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## Janet At Nutro (Mar 11, 2011)

I am so sorry to hear about Mateo. Tank was diagnosed with joint issues before he was a year old.
I second the recommendation that DaneMama gave you about the Milk Thistle. I gave it to Tank
with his Deramaxx. Please keep us updated on Mateo.


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## NewYorkDogue (Sep 27, 2011)

Liz said:


> I will be looking up the best amount for vitamin C but starting at 1000 would be good. if you need to up it I will let you know. How much does Mateo weigh?


Mateo weighs 124 pounds; just turned 1 year old May 2nd. I have powdered Vitamin C that I use for myself, but I am thinking I can regulate his amounts more if it's in a capsule. So, I'll pick some up.

Dane Mama- thanks for the medical input. In your experience, is this procedure done arthroscopically? Hopefully we can go this route...
I did pick up some Milk Thistle yesterday to give to him... I was thinking it would help his liver recover and clean out from the anesthesia he was given during the x-rays. Good to know that it will be helpful as well for the Rimadyl he's taking. I am also going to look into ordering the HipGuard that Liz suggested; this can be used in conjunction with NSAIDS.

Since I have told a few people about Mateo's OCD, I have been getting all kinds of advice in terms of which hospital to go to, which surgeon is the best, who to talk to, etc. It's a bit overwhelming, actually. But I agree, sooner rather than later. I want my boy back in the best of health, ASAP!

Thanks all-- Mateo is feeling the love :smile:


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## NewYorkDogue (Sep 27, 2011)

whiteleo said:


> I'm so sorry...I always recommend warm water therapy for dogs who have a potential for surgery...Good Luck and I'll be thinking of you both!
> _Canine Hydrotherapy_ | Animal Massage Guide


Thanks for that; I have heard of a hydrotherapy pool for dogs downtown. Another thing to look into..


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## Javadoo (May 23, 2011)

My lab girl Java was diagnosed with OCD in her knees when she was 13 months old. She also had bilateral ACL repairs. 
The OCD lesions were scraped away during her knee repairs and she's fine now.

I also supplement with Vit. C-1000 mg per day. 
You may also want to consider giving MSM (natural anti-inflammatory), fish oil (Omega 3 & 6), Glucosamine and Chondroitin.

Java daily supplement regimen is:

1000 mg human grade Vit. C
Grizzly Salmon Oil
Hylasport Canine (Gluc/Chond/HA/MSM & Vit. C)
Vit. E 
6000 mg MSM 
Adequan injection once a month. 

The MSM Java gets is considered a mega dosa-normal dose for a large dog is 1500 mg per day, but Java had both knees repaired, has OCD in her knees as well as DJD (degenerative joint disease) and ED (elbow dysplasia).

Good luck!!


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## NewYorkDogue (Sep 27, 2011)

Javadoo said:


> My lab girl Java was diagnosed with OCD in her knees when she was 13 months old. She also had bilateral ACL repairs.
> The OCD lesions were scraped away during her knee repairs and she's fine now.
> 
> I also supplement with Vit. C-1000 mg per day.
> ...


This all sounds good. Mateo has been getting fish oil/krill oil everyday, plus sardines or other fatty fish once a week or so. The MSM is a good idea. Also, I started putting a 1/2 teaspoon or so of tumeric in his food since I noticed him limping (also anti-inflammatory)-- he seems to like the taste, strangely enough. 

I am wondering if the glucosamine/chondroitin that is found in chicken feet is enough? He gets those regularly. Maybe it wouldn't hurt to supplement with a capsule at this point...

What does the injection of Adequan do for her?


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## Javadoo (May 23, 2011)

NewYorkDogue said:


> This all sounds good. Mateo has been getting fish oil/krill oil everyday, plus sardines or other fatty fish once a week or so. The MSM is a good idea. Also, I started putting a 1/2 teaspoon or so of tumeric in his food since I noticed him limping (also anti-inflammatory)-- he seems to like the taste, strangely enough.
> 
> I am wondering if the glucosamine/chondroitin that is found in chicken feet is enough? He gets those regularly. Maybe it wouldn't hurt to supplement with a capsule at this point...
> 
> What does the injection of Adequan do for her?


The beneficial dosage of glucosamine/chondroitin is 1500 mg Gluc/1000 mg chond....so I am very doubtful that chicken feet has a large enough dose. 
Be sure that if you dose him with it, that you give him at least 1500 gluc/1000 mg chond otherwise there is no benefit there.

Also, is mateo getting human grade fish oil? Fish oil requires Vit. E in conjunction with it for proper absorption. Java gets 200 iu every other day. 

The Adequan injections are like crack-seriously. I noticed a HUGE improvement in the subtle limp she still had in her knees after exercise. 
Now, she can run, hike and swim for HOURS with no after-effects at all, where as before she would be sore and stiff the next day. 
I give the injections at home, once a month. It is a prescription given to us by her ortho surgeon and he also trained me to give the injections properly. 
I am a very big fan of Adequan, but that may be something for you to look into later, after Mateo's surgery, if he still has any residual limping issues. It's not something he needs now. Java had her surgeries when she was 13 months old and she is now 3. We started the Adequan last spring.


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## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

Awwww... poor Mateo! Rats. 

I hope everything goes well and whatever treatment you do fixes it - I of course have no suggestions in this area but I am sending good thoughts to both of you.


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## DaneMama (Jun 27, 2008)

NewYorkDogue said:


> Dane Mama- thanks for the medical input. In your experience, is this procedure done arthroscopically? Hopefully we can go this route...
> I did pick up some Milk Thistle yesterday to give to him... I was thinking it would help his liver recover and clean out from the anesthesia he was given during the x-rays. Good to know that it will be helpful as well for the Rimadyl he's taking. I am also going to look into ordering the HipGuard that Liz suggested; this can be used in conjunction with NSAIDS.


Yes, less invasive that way so definitely go to someone who has a good reputation...don't hesitate to ask for any and all info to make you feel more comfortable with it all. 

Milk thistle is a great supplement. Since Rimadyl is processed through the liver you should really support it during.


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## IslandPaws4Raw (Sep 7, 2011)

I'm sorry to hear this. I'm sure he'll make a full recovery. He's young and you have a great support team here to give him the best possible chance with supplementing the traditional medicine with holistic care to help him heal and maintain.


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## meggels (May 30, 2010)

I'm sorry, I'll be thinkin of you guys


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## NewYorkDogue (Sep 27, 2011)

IslandPaws4Raw said:


> I'm sorry to hear this. I'm sure he'll make a full recovery. He's young and you have a great support team here to give him the best possible chance with supplementing the traditional medicine with holistic care to help him heal and maintain.


This^^^ exactly. The idea is find the right blend of traditional plus holistic care. I believe they _can_ work together synergistically.

Surgery has it's place; I have had 3 invasive knee surgeries myself (which includes a permanent screw in one knee) which has solved a genetic, mechanical problem. Now, my knees will never be as if I never had an issue, but they no longer dislocate and slide around at the slightest little turn...

The prognosis post surgery for OCD, from what I have read, looks really good; no real further issues. And he is a young, strong, healthy boy, with an easy-going attitude... I am optimistic that related joint issues will not follow him down the road...


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

that's good news.

i'd be giving him a probiotic now, too....to help with his gut flora and secondarily that will help with his surgery and getting the toxins out of his body.

we use primal defense ultra....for bubba...

a strong gut can be very important for surgery, along with what liz and natalie suggested for his liver and the rimadyl....plus the anaesthesia.

glad to hear it's being done arthroscopically. less stress and a faster recovery.

from what i'm reading, i also see this as a recoverable situation.


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## NewYorkDogue (Sep 27, 2011)

magicre said:


> that's good news.
> 
> i'd be giving him a probiotic now, too....to help with his gut flora and secondarily that will help with his surgery and getting the toxins out of his body.
> 
> ...


Well, what do you know. I found a bottle of Primal Defense (from Garden of Life) towards the back of my supplement shelf. It's not the ultra, but still. It expires in 7 months.

Question: Do you give on an empty stomach like it suggests? It's so much easier to give supplements in with his food; he just swallows it all down...


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

i open the capsule and put it on his food.

might not be right but that's how they eat it best.


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## Liz (Sep 27, 2010)

I always give on their food. Cool at least that saves a tiny bit!


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## Neeko (Aug 11, 2010)

So sorry to hear this. Isn't it amazing how tough dogs are? Most humans would probably cry to whomever would listen about the pain. 

I have researched vit c, as I give it to my young girl who sometimes act as though her hips are stiff. It has to be Ester-C, to be more readily absorbed. Dogs synthesize their own vitamin c, so they don't "need" it, per se. Some theorize that at high doses, it's antioxidant effect kicks in, helping to rebuild/repair cartilage, which is why I give it.

I give my girl 1000 mg one day, 2000 mg the next. I bought the 1000 mg tablets. I contacted the company, they are safe to crush. I had to work up a bowel tolerance with her, but I started them before we switched to raw. 250 daily for a week. Then 250, 500, 250 etc. then 500 for a week. Then 500, 750, 500 etc.

Positive thoughts your way!


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## NewYorkDogue (Sep 27, 2011)

Neeko said:


> So sorry to hear this. Isn't it amazing how tough dogs are? Most humans would probably cry to whomever would listen about the pain.
> 
> I have researched vit c, as I give it to my young girl who sometimes act as though her hips are stiff. It has to be Ester-C, to be more readily absorbed. Dogs synthesize their own vitamin c, so they don't "need" it, per se. Some theorize that at high doses, it's antioxidant effect kicks in, helping to rebuild/repair cartilage, which is why I give it.
> 
> ...


Very helpful-- thanks!

And I agree about how dogs react (or not) to pain or discomfort...some maybe more than others. I have never heard a whimper or peep or any sign of distress from Mateo. He just keeps truckin' along... with a big, happy state of mind. :smile:


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