# Nutro Feeders?



## Shamrockmommy (Sep 10, 2009)

This question is spurred from the conversation with Dr. Doolittle which points out that phosphorus levels can indicate quality of the meat/meals used in dry foods. 
So in my spare time this morning I went poking about and found that some of my favorites have more phosphorus than is recommended but it turns out practically every one of Nutro Natural and Ultra have .6% phosphorus, which is supposed to be a great number.

I haven't tried Nutro for YEARS. The dogs always ended up throwing up yellow bile between meals. I see that the foods are very low calorie compared to the other foods I'm feeding, which may explain the yellow bile (we call it the 'hungries'). 

Anyway, anyone feed any of the natural or ultra line? They look pretty good, actually and I might rotate in a bag to see how the dogs do on it. I MAY especially try out the toy breed ultra on my (chubby!) tripawd chihauhua who gets SO hungry on the tiny amounts of Fromm, etc, that she will eat poop. I can give her more food and the poo eating stops. I'm sure she wouldn't mind being able to eat more kibbles!

WDYT? NutroGeoff will you chime in? How are dogs doing on the foods? My one bichon, I am so happy with her on the PetGuard because she doesn't chew her feet or scratch her ears/lips (yeast infections) nor does she get tear stains. So that would be a big deal for her. 

Just thinking! Plus, the cost savings would be significant for our budget as well (I can get it at a great price at the Commissary).


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## NutroGeoff (May 15, 2013)

Shamrockmommy said:


> This question is spurred from the conversation with Dr. Doolittle which points out that phosphorus levels can indicate quality of the meat/meals used in dry foods.
> So in my spare time this morning I went poking about and found that some of my favorites have more phosphorus than is recommended but it turns out practically every one of Nutro Natural and Ultra have .6% phosphorus, which is supposed to be a great number.
> 
> I haven't tried Nutro for YEARS. The dogs always ended up throwing up yellow bile between meals. I see that the foods are very low calorie compared to the other foods I'm feeding, which may explain the yellow bile (we call it the 'hungries').
> ...


I actually feed both foods to my dogs. My lab, Baxter, eats the Natural Choice line and my mom's shih tzus eat the Ultra. They are all extremely healthy on it. I have been feeding the oldest shih tzu, Andy, has been eating Ultra for about 5 years now and is about to turn 14. He had already begun to slow down on the food I was feeding before I switched but once I switched he started doing much better and has been much healthier since. Fergie, the 1 year old has been eating Ultra since I got her and she has been doing great on it. I actually started Baxter on the Ultra large breed puppy when we got him but decided to try him on the Natural Choice and I really saw a big difference in his skin and coat and he has been at an extremely healthy weight on that since. I definitely really recommend it, not only because I do work for Nutro but because of how well my dogs do on it.


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## Shamrockmommy (Sep 10, 2009)

Thanks. I'll throw a bag into the rotation and see what happens.


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## NutroGeoff (May 15, 2013)

Sounds great! Let me know how your pups do on it!


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## Dr Dolittle (Aug 2, 2013)

Shamrockmommy said:


> This question is spurred from the conversation with Dr. Doolittle which points out that phosphorus levels can indicate quality of the meat/meals used in dry foods.
> So in my spare time this morning I went poking about and found that some of my favorites have more phosphorus than is recommended but it turns out practically every one of Nutro Natural and Ultra have .6% phosphorus, which is supposed to be a great number.
> 
> I haven't tried Nutro for YEARS. The dogs always ended up throwing up yellow bile between meals. I see that the foods are very low calorie compared to the other foods I'm feeding, which may explain the yellow bile (we call it the 'hungries').
> ...


Hey Shamrock, Are you sure .6%? That seems really low. awesome if it is right, but you might want to check it. LOL! I like how you are thinking though!!!!


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## Shamrockmommy (Sep 10, 2009)

Well now that I went back and rechecked the amounts, some of the foods in the natural line don't have Phosphorus listed and others I see are .9 - 1%. I swear I saw .6% but I may have read it wrong. 

I tried to like and feed Nutro several times over the years. Every time I did, though, I ended up with dogs vomiting yellow bile at all times of the day and night. If I switched foods, the vomiting stopped. If I started it up again (different bag) it started again. So, while the food looks really good 'on paper' I'm still really leary of giving it a try. I want to... I just don't want sick, vomiting dogs again. 

I'll poke around more on their website and see if I can find where I saw .6%. Maybe that I was cross-eyed yesterday LOL


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## Shamrockmommy (Sep 10, 2009)

Nutro Ultra Adult has .6% phosphorus.


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## meggels (May 30, 2010)

Even though the products look decent enough, I wouldn't be able to trust the company since they were part of the huge 2007 recalls that killed pets...


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## Shamrockmommy (Sep 10, 2009)

meggels said:


> Even though the products look decent enough, I wouldn't be able to trust the company since they were part of the huge 2007 recalls that killed pets...


That's right! Forgot about that one. 
Considering the companies that have had recalls, that really narrows choices. I know Fromm hasn't had one (recently had a GREAT experience with Fromm when 2 of my dogs eating the gamebird were throwing up... I sent off a sample of my food and they called yesterday with the results being all clear of contaminants. It turned out to be the tomatoes they were getting into but still, they were very proactive in making sure it wasn't their food. Love that company!

What other companies have had no recalls?


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## InkedMarie (Sep 9, 2011)

Shamrockmommy said:


> That's right! Forgot about that one.
> Considering the companies that have had recalls, that really narrows choices. I know Fromm hasn't had one (recently had a GREAT experience with Fromm when 2 of my dogs eating the gamebird were throwing up... I sent off a sample of my food and they called yesterday with the results being all clear of contaminants. It turned out to be the tomatoes they were getting into but still, they were very proactive in making sure it wasn't their food. Love that company!
> 
> What other companies have had no recalls?


Fromm, Annamaet, Dr Tim's, pretty sure Natures Logic, Hi Tek, Victor as well. 

For me, it depends on the reason for the recall. The salmonella recalls....doesn't harm dogs so wash your hands and for me, not a big deal. THH's was for parsley. Since I like the company as a whole & that they stopped getting parsley there, I'm more than fine with them. Diamond? No way, too many. A company like Evangers with their many issues, no recalls but o trust.


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## Dr Dolittle (Aug 2, 2013)

Shamrockmommy said:


> That's right! Forgot about that one.
> Considering the companies that have had recalls, that really narrows choices. I know Fromm hasn't had one (recently had a GREAT experience with Fromm when 2 of my dogs eating the gamebird were throwing up... I sent off a sample of my food and they called yesterday with the results being all clear of contaminants. It turned out to be the tomatoes they were getting into but still, they were very proactive in making sure it wasn't their food. Love that company!
> 
> What other companies have had no recalls?


You are thorough, Shamrockmommy! I will comment on the recall of '07 on Meggels note but there were actually a number of companies that wern't part of the recall. Hills had no dog food involved in the recall but one feline diet. I checked and Hills has never had a recall on dog food


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## Dr Dolittle (Aug 2, 2013)

meggels said:


> Even though the products look decent enough, I wouldn't be able to trust the company since they were part of the huge 2007 recalls that killed pets...


Meggels, I will never forget the 07 recall. It taught some food companies it is best to make your own food, and not have someone else make it. There are lots of misconceptions about the recall. Cornell vet School put out a great newsletter explaining that the wheat gluten that was contaminated was human grade. Did you get that? Human grade. It could have shown up in your pizza dough from Dominos as easily as in your pet's food. China was adding ingredients to drive the crude protein level up to get a higher price. What they didn't know was by adding 2 different ingredients, when they mixed, they were toxic to kidneys. Actually I was surprised that some of the companies involved were actually using a better grade of anything! If you remember, months later, our govt found that China was doing the same thing to human foods and even killed a bunch of Chinese infants. It was not a conspiracy of pet food companies to sneak in sime cheap chines ingredients like the media portrayed. So who is Menu foods and why were so many companies having their food made by them? The market has changed where consumers, especially cat folks, want chunks and gravy and things like that. Most food companies have plants to make dry food and canned food but they had to outsource to do certain types of canned product. Menu Foods was a huge manufacturing plant that was used. Sadly, and no i don't work for them, they were made to be the bad guys and were totally innocent. Some companies like Iams and Nutro took really bad hits becasue so much of their canned food was made there, but I personally have no problem with any food affected by the poisoning. How were they to know. One could argue we never shoulf have trusted the Chinese market and now we don't and now the major food companies have to test for a whoile lot more things in raw ingredients than ever before. Personally I will only iuse a food made by the company that is not outsourced but to be fair, the 07 recall was no reflection of quality on the many companies involved. LOL! Old Roy has never had a recall and had no problem in 07. How many of us would feed that? 

Just a side note, many more cats died as a result of the poisoning, by far. Most vets believe there are millions of cats walking around with early renal failure, not showing signs till it is almost too late. When these cats ate the tainted foods that was the last straw. It makes me mad when i see the extremely excessive sodium and phosphorus in most cat foods, even so called Senior ones, when we know these undiagnosed cats are out there. A good arguement to do yearly blood work when your cat (and dog) gets older


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## Shamrockmommy (Sep 10, 2009)

Dr Dolittle said:


> You are thorough, Shamrockmommy!


Well, I believe Nutrition is super important for all organisms. Bodies are able to heal from (most) diseases (especially things like chronic ear infections, yeasty skin) when provided with the correct foods. So I keep a notebook of foods fed to my dogs and how they do on each food. I know which foods have caused chronic ear infections (TOTW, Nutro) which foods caused ongoing UTIs (Wellness), which foods they do wonderfully on (Fromm, Petguard, home cooked) which foods caused unexplained hives and itching (Viand, Volhard NDF and NDF2) or massive hairloss and pancreatitis (Bil-Jac) or massive pooping followed by poop eating (The Honest Kitchen when fed soley on its own, it's ok as a topper). 

I also don't want to risk exposing the dogs (or cat or guinea pigs or rabbit) to possible 'bad things' like the horrible recalls of 07, or the mysterious vomiting, or miserable ear and skin infections because of a food. Which is why it's almost agonizing to me to try a new food for them. I had a coupon for TOTW cat food, and bought a small bag but it's sitting in the pantry and I'm giving it the skeptical eyeball for a while before I try to feed it. Makes me worry. 

I do not have the time nor energy to cook/raw for the dogs (because of the enormous human food allergy issues here I am cooking ALL. THE. TIME.) so I rely heavily on dry foods. 

I've been able to stave off unnecessary vet visits for those "typical" pet ailments listed above by paying attention to my dogs' bodies and taking notes of foods fed at the time. It pays off to be thorough.


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## NutroGeoff (May 15, 2013)

meggels said:


> Even though the products look decent enough, I wouldn't be able to trust the company since they were part of the huge 2007 recalls that killed pets...


I completely understand your reluctance to try the food out again after those issues, however I can definitely assure you that we have gone to great lengths to ensure that we have improved our products, and quality. I would encourage you to go to http://www.nutro.com/pet-food-quality-safety/natural-pet-food-safety-and-quality.aspx to see how we have improved our quality testing. For example, just a few months ago we got in two trucks of turkey for our grain free food and the turkey didn't meet up with our standard so we actually sent the trucks away and didn't have any turkey to make the food for a couple more weeks. As I said earlier I have had my dogs on it for up to five years now and haven't had to take them to the vet for anything other than getting their shots.


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## lovemydogsalways (Mar 4, 2012)

I too want to find a food with low phosphorus. I am starting my search now. I want a company with no recalls and a food that is at least 26% protein. Also the ash needs to be under 8%. I feel like I am looking for a needle in a hay stack.


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## Dr Dolittle (Aug 2, 2013)

Shamrockmommy said:


> Nutro Ultra Adult has .6% phosphorus.


Shamrock, I called Nutro because the .6% on the bag just means the minimum. the girl was very nice but did not understand I was looking for the actual as fed %, so we can assume it might be around .65 to .7 % on a Dry Matter basis. I was looking at some bags in Petsmart and found that Nutro Natural Choice did not list phosphorus. When I talked with Nutro they said the phosphorus was 1.45% DMV! Wow! That's a good lesson that one company can make very different quality foods, at least based on nutrients. I would have thought of Natural Choice as a better product but there you go! Both will perform well I assume, for most dogs, but one is delivering some of the highest phosphorus levels out there! And it's funny that the first ingredient in the Natural Choice was Deboned Lamb, making you think it would be lower like the Ultra. See how ignoring nutrients really leaves you in the dark? I called Authority too just to check and they were 1.15% phosphorus, so not as good as I remembered. Hills Ideal Balance said .65 on the bag and was .67 actual so that was really good.
Nutro had 250 iu's of Vit E on the bag. Hills Ideal Balance had 400 on the bag but on the phone the actual is over 650 so that was surprising. it's just another example of how the bags, whether ingredient panels, or guaranteed analysis, don't give you the real story. For me it come down to the fact most foods are pretty good, very few are actually bad. Things that make the difference are controlled excesses that can potentially be harmful and how much antioxidants are in the food. And keeping our dogs at a healthy weight. so bottom line, Ultra impressed me. Would avoid Natural Choice.


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## Shamrockmommy (Sep 10, 2009)

Thanks for checking that out, Dr. Doolittle. I'm VERY reluctant to try Nutro, as I've said, it has caused lots of vomiting in the past. I don't know if that problem's been "fixed" or not but still, I'm leary. It 'looks' really nice on paper though.

I've been looking at Ideal Balance lately. Might try a bag. Might


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## lovemydogsalways (Mar 4, 2012)

Dr Dolittle said:


> Shamrock, I called Nutro because the .6% on the bag just means the minimum. the girl was very nice but did not understand I was looking for the actual as fed %, so we can assume it might be around .65 to .7 % on a Dry Matter basis. I was looking at some bags in Petsmart and found that Nutro Natural Choice did not list phosphorus. When I talked with Nutro they said the phosphorus was 1.45% DMV! Wow! That's a good lesson that one company can make very different quality foods, at least based on nutrients. I would have thought of Natural Choice as a better product but there you go! Both will perform well I assume, for most dogs, but one is delivering some of the highest phosphorus levels out there! And it's funny that the first ingredient in the Natural Choice was Deboned Lamb, making you think it would be lower like the Ultra. See how ignoring nutrients really leaves you in the dark? I called Authority too just to check and they were 1.15% phosphorus, so not as good as I remembered. Hills Ideal Balance said .65 on the bag and was .67 actual so that was really good.
> Nutro had 250 iu's of Vit E on the bag. Hills Ideal Balance had 400 on the bag but on the phone the actual is over 650 so that was surprising. it's just another example of how the bags, whether ingredient panels, or guaranteed analysis, don't give you the real story. For me it come down to the fact most foods are pretty good, very few are actually bad. Things that make the difference are controlled excesses that can potentially be harmful and how much antioxidants are in the food. And keeping our dogs at a healthy weight. so bottom line, Ultra impressed me. Would avoid Natural Choice.


I have been emailing a few different companies adding for their nutrient analysis, not the GA. One company would not give it because it is propriety information. but they would gladly give me the numbers if I asked for one specifically. ie phosphorus. That kinda irritates me because I want to find the best for my dogs.


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## Dr Dolittle (Aug 2, 2013)

Shamrockmommy said:


> Thanks for checking that out, Dr. Doolittle. I'm VERY reluctant to try Nutro, as I've said, it has caused lots of vomiting in the past. I don't know if that problem's been "fixed" or not but still, I'm leary. It 'looks' really nice on paper though.
> 
> I've been looking at Ideal Balance lately. Might try a bag. Might


Well, not here to defend Nutro but I am certain every food out there has dogs that have thrived on their food and other dogs that did terrible. I see that especially in growing puppies and then in geriatric dogs. Extremely difficult to identify what ingredient or combination makes certain dogs not do well on a particular food. I guess if we try to choose foods based on the basics, and avoid the marketing hype, the final test is feeding it.


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## Dr Dolittle (Aug 2, 2013)

lovemydogsalways said:


> I have been emailing a few different companies adding for their nutrient analysis, not the GA. One company would not give it because it is propriety information. but they would gladly give me the numbers if I asked for one specifically. ie phosphorus. That kinda irritates me because I want to find the best for my dogs.


It is getting harder and harder to get good info from food companies. The newer companies either don't know or don't make them public. I simply won't even consider a food from such companies. It just shows how far we have gotten away from nutrients being part of nutrition. But way to go!


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## danea (Oct 25, 2008)

*Dr Dolittle*

I always thought it was more calcium levels rather than phosphorus. 
If I understood this correctly http://japr.fass.org/content/7/3/309.full.pdf higher bone % in meat and bone meal would lead to much higher levels of Ca than P, yes P levels also rise with higher bone amount, but not as drastically as Ca. is it not better to compare by Ca?
Or do you mean that better\fresher meat would lead to lower levels of P?


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## NutroGeoff (May 15, 2013)

Shamrockmommy said:


> Thanks for checking that out, Dr. Doolittle. I'm VERY reluctant to try Nutro, as I've said, it has caused lots of vomiting in the past. I don't know if that problem's been "fixed" or not but still, I'm leary. It 'looks' really nice on paper though.


I have never had any issues with any of my dogs vomiting or anything like that. If you do decide to try it again I hope it does work great for you.


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