# my pup's "first" raw chicken neck meal. looks ok?



## taem (Oct 29, 2011)

I say "first" in quotes because as it turns out her breeder weans her pups to both raw chicken neck and kibble, since she has clients who do both types of diet. So this isn't Maitreya's first chicken neck ever. It is however my first time feeding raw. As you can see it's not very hygienic lol. After this meal I switched to feeding her in a crate so she's not dragging raw chicken across tile.

She's chewing properly and managing the bone yeah? She looked fine to me.






Interestingly she stopped using her paws after that meal.

Her poop is nice and firm, about the consistency of modeling clay. My only worry is she hardly ever poops, some days she poops just once. And she hardly ever drinks water, but she pees just fine and about the amount I think she should.

I'm actually sort of in a quandry now because I had been planning on nothing but chicken neck for the first week at least, but since she doesn't have to go through the "introduction to raw" phase I find myself having to adjust her diet much sooner than I'd planned. So right now she gets three different things: (1) chicken neck, (2) SmallBatch 1 oz chicken sliders (smallbatch the main site seems to be down smallbatch pets), (3) boneless chicken leg.

Sometimes she'll eat eagerly, sometimes she hems and haws and I have to coax her, and even then she doesn't eat as much as I think she should. She's 5 lbs, I try to give her 7-8 oz a day, but sometimes she won't eat more than 2 oz in a sitting. I'm worried about amount, I'm worried about getting the proper nutrition, which is why I added the SmallBatch prepared raw patties. (Interestingly, she far far prefers the chicken necks and boneless legs to the prepared chicken sliders with all the other stuff in it.)

When should I start adding organ, offal, different proteins, etc? She's 10 weeks today.

PS - It's true what they say about raw food making dogs vicious!!


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## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

She is a really, really cute little dog!! 

What is her expected adult weight? If her estimated adult weight is 10 pounds, 3 percent is 4.8 ounces per day so you should be feeding her 4.8 ounces and then adjust up or down according to her weight.

If her estimated adult weight is 20 pounds (I have no idea) 3 percent is 9.6 ounces per day. But if 10 percent of her current weight is less than 9.6 ounces per day, you should feed her 10% of her current weight until the amount of food reaches 3% at full weight. Which would be 8 ounces per day right now.

It sounds like she is regulating herself somewhere around where she should be as far as amounts go.

I think she is doing great on the chicken leg. To get Snorkels to stay in one place I just kept picking her up and putting back where she belongs and after awhile she quit dragging it off.


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## taem (Oct 29, 2011)

I edited the post to put in a new vid instead, the new one shows much better how puppy eats. She seems to swallow the last chunk.

Anyway she's 5 lbs, so I'm figuring 7-8 oz a day for now, adult weight, I'm not sure, but I'm guessing at least around 20 lbs, 5 lbs is on the big end for a mini poodle at 10 weeks.

I threw in the SmallBatch because I didn't want to give her just chicken protein/bone. The chicken sliders ingredients are:

Freerange chicken (muscle and bone); yams; broccoli; squash; carrot; chicken heart & liver; kale; salmon oil; kelp; parsley; basil; rosemary; garlic; apple cider vinegar; bee pollen; grapefruit seed extract.

I just have no clue what to supplement the muscle and bone with for now, especially since I probably want to avoid red meat for now I'm guessing? And stick with chicken for at least a little while?


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## DeekenDog (Aug 29, 2011)

I would have a look at this getting started guide How to Get Started | Prey Model Raw

Typically the people here don't recommend anything other than meat, bones, and organ as we believe that they contain everything the dog needs. Things like veggies, fruits, etc. tend to just act as filler or a digestive irritant and don't add nutritional value to the dog's diet. There is a BARF sub-forum as well so if that's the direction you're looking to go in that direction I would post there


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## Liz (Sep 27, 2010)

She looks like a pro. I would add more meat and less bone in a day or two of chicken and see how she does. I would still do a whole week of chicken only because even if she seems to be adapting well she has still been stressed and stress can cause tummy problems so stick with chicken this week and maybe start adding some turkey or rabbit next week. If you can't find turkey try rabbit since she is so small - that is what we did with my sheltie pups mostly because they could eat the rabbit bone easier than turkey. She will be fine on meat and bone for a while and you will be feeding beef and organ before you know it. Make sure you don't hold a lot of food for her as seems to know what she is doing. Watch her but let her figure how to eat it and try to keep meal time non chalant. Little dogs are notorious for becoming picky eaters and that is the last thing you want her to think she can start. She is a lovely pup by the way, very pretty expression.


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## taem (Oct 29, 2011)

Thanks guys! What chicken part should I go with next, and how soon should I give it? I'm a bit worried about how she swallows that last chunk of chicken neck, so maybe something a bit bigger where she can't do that? Breast? Back? Can I go with that right away or should I go a few more days of neck?

She's not having problems pooping tho, just one time she seemed to strain a little bit and it took a few more seconds for the poop to come out, but that's the extent of it.

She loves the boneless chicken legs, really tears into it with mucho gusto! They warned me raw makes dogs [email protected]@!


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## Liz (Sep 27, 2010)

Yes you will have to sleep with one open, she definitely looks the type to turn on you. LOL Chicken thighs are probably a good size for her. Honestly my shelties (one is only 11 pounds full grown) chomps everything just enough to swallow. They even take down turkey necks like nothing. As long as they chew a bit their stomach acid really will break down the rest of the bone. I feed backs but with richer meat as they are very bone. I would move her to legs or thighs, cornish game hen is also fun for her as it is just a small chicken and you could probably give her a quarter of one and she would have a blast.


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## DeekenDog (Aug 29, 2011)

taem said:


> Thanks guys! What chicken part should I go with next, and how soon should I give it? I'm a bit worried about how she swallows that last chunk of chicken neck, so maybe something a bit bigger where she can't do that? Breast? Back? Can I go with that right away or should I go a few more days of neck?
> 
> She's not having problems pooping tho, just one time she seemed to strain a little bit and it took a few more seconds for the poop to come out, but that's the extent of it.
> 
> She loves the boneless chicken legs, really tears into it with mucho gusto! They warned me raw makes dogs [email protected]@!


I wouldn't worry. Keep in mind that dogs don't need to chew food like we do as their digestion begins in their stomach and ours begins in the mouth. My big guy swallows turkey necks like that- a few chomps to break it up so he can get it down and down it goes.


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

what an adorable pup.....everyone has given you great advice...with those nice healthy teeth, she'll have the jaws of a crocodile soon and will be able to enjoy lots of edible bones....

but take it nice and slowly....there's no hurry when introducing...

after we fed backs, i would buy either cornish game hens or whole chickens and then i learned how to take apart a chicken.....i'm quite skilled now LOL


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## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

i wouldn't worry about the bones - barring the freak venison rib incident, Snorkels swallows most bones whole, or almost whole - mostly chicken necks and chicken heads.

The only real problem I've had with that is with smaller dogs that much bone can be constipating.


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## taem (Oct 29, 2011)

Man she's stressing me out. First of all she doesn't poop much at all (like once a day; twice a day max). When she does poop she doesn't seem to have difficulty, and she poops nice chunks of firm poop.

But right now she hardly eats. Like this morning she had half of a 1.7 oz chicken neck and wouldn't touch anymore. I tried giving her a chicken patty, wouldn't eat that either. She should be eating like 2.6-2.7 oz a meal, so a breakfast of 0.8 oz seems like starvation rations. I took the food away and tried later, then again, she won't touch it.

Also she seems to be having difficulty all of a sudden with chicken necks. First few days, no problem, as you can see in the video. Now, she just works at it forever but seems to be gnawing on it rather than eating it. I've checked her teeth and they seem fine, but maybe she has tooth damage?

Puppy is very very hard to take care of!!


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## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

she will poop alot less and lots smaller poops. That's totally normal.

if her teeth are fine, she is just playing you. she was weaned onto chicken necks. you've given her some other stuff (veggies etc.) and they make those pre-made patties to be tasty. She's probably holding out.

If her poops are good, why don't you just take up her food after 10 minutes or so and give it to her (the exact same thing) an hour or two later. She will eat it eventually.


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

she seems awfully young to have tooth problems, but it never hurts to have it checked.

on the other hand, xellil is right...you're offering her patties that have sugar in them from the other ingredients besides chicken...so she's already got you whipped. 

put the neck down. pick it up after 20 minutes and let her know that's all she's getting.

and maybe hold off on the patties until she fully transitions to raw feeding.


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## taem (Oct 29, 2011)

But pooping just once a day is ok? That seems abnormal for a 10 week pup.

With the food, I do take it away. She doesn't care. She doesn't whine or beg, she just scampers off to play with her toys. I try to give it to her again later, no interest.

The chicken patties, that's what she has the least interest in. With the chicken necks and leg meat, she'll at least approach it with enthusiasm and start in it, she just doesn't eat enough of it. The patties she doesn't even approach, I coax her closer, and she nudges at it with her nose, goes away, will eventually put down a bit of it if I coax her more. I'll stop giving that to her tho.

I never thought lack of appetite would be an issue!


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## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

taem said:


> But pooping just once a day is ok? That seems abnormal for a 10 week pup.
> 
> With the food, I do take it away. She doesn't care. She doesn't whine or beg, she just scampers off to play with her toys. I try to give it to her again later, no interest.
> 
> ...


yes, that's kind of hard for me to fathom also. I think alot of people face this, though.

I really do think one poop a day is plenty. When you feed them meat and bones, they digest most of it. With dry dog food, it passes all the way through. If she's not showing any signs of illness I think she'll be fine.

How much is she eating in a day?


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## mwplay (Oct 10, 2010)

Another red poodle!!! Yay. I've got 4 red minis. 

As everyone already said, totally normal for 1 or 2 poops a day. 

So, if she's a mini, her weight will probably be closer to 12-15 lb range, depending on how tall she is going to be. For my poodles, I try to keep them about 1lb per inch of height. That keeps them on the lean side, but not too thin. Also, metabolism will come into play. My smallest is 12 inches & ranges between 12-13 lbs. I have to feed her at 2.75% of her body weight to keep it on. I've got a 14 inch boy, who I have to feed at the 1.75% - 2% range because he packs the weight on and he’s active! I've got an oversized boy at 16 inches and I need to keep him around 18 lbs so he isn't a rack of bones.

If she's had chicken for a while because her breeder fed it to her, why not add a little beef? Normally, if you were JUST starting, you would start slow, but sounds like she’s been there/done that on chicken. Maybe she needs a little change. 

One other thing I'll point out. My dogs - if they get really hungry or miss a meal, will vomit bile. You may just have a self regulator, which can be a good thing. If she's not throwing up bile because she hasn't eaten, then I think you are ok. Maybe some other members can weigh in here. I think the biggest issue is not losing weight.


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## taem (Oct 29, 2011)

xellil said:


> I really do think one poop a day is plenty.


Ok cool that really had me worried. She is peeing just fine.



> How much is she eating in a day?


Yesterday she had around 5 oz, out of the 7-8 oz I figure she needs. And this morning she had 0.8 oz. I'm really hoping she eats well for lunch. I'm not giving her very many treats right now.


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## mwplay (Oct 10, 2010)

Here's a thought, how about you cut back on all treats and give her a piece of muscle meat as a treat? That way, you know she's getting the food she needs and not taking up space in her small tummy for treats? Just an idea. Especially if you are worried she's not getting enough food. I realize how stressful it can be when you've got dogs who won't eat, especially a puppy.


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## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

taem said:


> O I'm not giving her very many treats right now.


How many treats are you giving her and what are they?


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## Liz (Sep 27, 2010)

Your puppy is adorable and I know how hard it is not to worry but the more invested you get in what she eats the less interested she will become. You will be playing the game of finding foods for her every week because you will have created a picky eater. If she is to be about 15 pounds I would try to feed about 6 - 8 ounces and if she eats close to that don't worry. Puppies don't like to be hungry and they will eat. Pups don't eat for a number of reasons - playing is more fun, need to go potty, treats are better, a butterfly went past the window, etc. Don't worry. Let her get hungry. Feed her in her crate and then leave her there for a short nap time. If she doesn't eat - take the food and leave her there for a short nap anyway. She will learn it is not all playtime. Oh, and don't worry so.


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## taem (Oct 29, 2011)

Ok well I just gave her a 2 1/4 oz chunk of boneless chicken leg and she just gobbled that up.

So maybe she's just being finicky with the chicken neck and the patties and I'm just worrying too much like Liz said. It's stressful! with a little puppy. This was so much easier when I was a kid and my mom handled all this.



xellil said:


> How many treats are you giving her and what are they?


She only gets freeze dried lamb lung puffs (from bestbullysticks). I tried some other stuff like zuke's mini peanut butter and purebites beef liver but she really wasn't all that interested. She loves the lamb lung puffs tho.



mwplay said:


> Another red poodle!!! Yay. I've got 4 red minis.


Would you call her a red? I considered her a deep apricot. She has red siblings tho, and one very pale apricot who's almost a cream at this point. I did meet a woman the other day who has poodles who calls her a red.



> So, if she's a mini, her weight will probably be closer to 12-15 lb range, depending on how tall she is going to be. For my poodles, I try to keep them about 1lb per inch of height. That keeps them on the lean side, but not too thin. Also, metabolism will come into play. My smallest is 12 inches & ranges between 12-13 lbs. I have to feed her at 2.75% of her body weight to keep it on. I've got a 14 inch boy, who I have to feed at the 1.75% - 2% range because he packs the weight on and he’s active! I've got an oversized boy at 16 inches and I need to keep him around 18 lbs so he isn't a rack of bones.


I had been assuming she'd be around 20 lbs, since 5 lbs is very big for a mini pup at 10 weeks. Some of her siblings are just over 3 lbs right now! Her mom is 13", dad is 14".



> If she's had chicken for a while because her breeder fed it to her, why not add a little beef? Normally, if you were JUST starting, you would start slow, but sounds like she’s been there/done that on chicken. Maybe she needs a little change.


I would dearly love to do that, I just didn't know if it was safe. She seems to like the boneless chicken leg the best, she really goes to town on those. I just want to make sure she's getting enough bone so I stress over her sudden lack of enthusiasm over chicken neck. I think I might get a cornish game hen and chop that up like Liz suggested, and if that doesn't work either, maybe I should try some beef.



> One other thing I'll point out. My dogs - if they get really hungry or miss a meal, will vomit bile. You may just have a self regulator, which can be a good thing. If she's not throwing up bile because she hasn't eaten, then I think you are ok. Maybe some other members can weigh in here. I think the biggest issue is not losing weight.


She threw up a bit of white foamy liquid last night. I probably should have mentioned that before. My toys did that from time to time so I didn't stress it, she's plenty (overly...) active today.


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## mwplay (Oct 10, 2010)

Personally, yes, I'd call her red. I was looking at her ears and some of her deeper coloring. I guess deep apricot would be fine too. I find the apricots are lighter in color with apricot/reddish guard hairs (she doesn't have any yet - will later). Her color could change over time. 

So, unless she gets a "giant" gene, she will probably be the same size as her parents. She may have been the "big" puppy/more assertive when feeding, etc. You may find she will lose weight and become more lean as she grows. 

Cornish game hens are perfect size for our smaller dogs, but honestly, they are still chickens, just a younger age. I personally would introduce beef muscle meat and continue with the necks as bone. As long as her poop is staying firm, she may be getting enough bone. 

Are you feeding her skin with the boneless chicken leg or are we talking about boneless/skinless thighs? Maybe she needs some fat?

The white foamy - was that after drinking a lot of water? If it was yellow/foamy I would consider a bile barf. 

I'm sorry - I'm definitely NOT an expert when it comes to feeding puppies raw. The breeder of my dogs does feed her pups raw, but grinds. I think she feeds about 8 oz a day for her pups . She feeds 2, 4oz meals a day. Her food always has beef in it and I think she uses chicken necks for the bone portion. But, again, I think the key here is your pup has already had chicken and seems to be handling this fine. If you were just starting her on raw from scratch, then I'd say stay with the chicken for now.


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

if you stop the treats and those patties, she will eat the food she is supposed to eat.

pooping once a day is normal....

keep in mind that she is transitioning to raw feeding...and a prey model at that...

i usually suggest that people don't feed extras whilst they are transitioning, because if you feed one thing at a time and there's a problem, you'll know what it is....rather than try to figure out if it is an ingredient in the patties or the treats.

chicken is just chicken...and she is manipulating you to give her the stuff that is sweeter or saltier or has a flavour that chicken doesn't have.

we all do this.....at some point...let our dogs manipulate us. we just have to be smarter than the dog. not always easy.


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