# ANY Studies?



## CoverTune (Dec 20, 2011)

There's definitely plenty of opinion regarding raw food, just wondering if there are actually any published studies on it that anyone can provide. I know, funding for this kind of thing is nil etc etc. Just hoping there might be something out there.


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## meggels (May 30, 2010)

Hey, I know you.


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## JayJayisme (Aug 2, 2009)

This thread is 15 pages long but it will shed some light on this subject for you.

http://dogfoodchat.com/forum/dog-food-ingredients/2329-backed-scientific-study.html


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## Mondo (Dec 20, 2011)

*Short answer seems to be "no"*

There are no studies on kibble either. 

It's all anecdotal, but at some point when the anecdotes are 98% positive, and there are a lot of anecdotes, you need to give them some credence.

I'm late to raw feeding, only been at it 100% the last couple of weeks. One of my dogs had 3 teeth removed, has periodontal disease and is close to 12 years old. Just a little guy. I was apprehensive to go raw, but as I told my wife, it seems I've been killing the boys slowly with their diet (sorry for they hyperbole, but that's how I felt) ... so if they die quickly with raw, at least they die happy. lol.

They are doing great. Wasn't sure the toothless one would do very well but he has most of his teeth, and there is something gratifying about hearing that cracking of bone, the sheer enjoyment of dismantling a turkey neck. Both boys are doing fine on raw. For me, given how I was providing a "balanced" menu before (veggies, cooked chicken, kibble, pre-made raw, tripe etc), raw is easy. Some hunks of meat, a bit of pre-made raw (still have some left but am moving away from that), and some chicken necks for dessert. Some days wings, or backs. I'm loving turkey necks. For my 20 pound dogs, they are a workout. 

For a bit of an expose on kibble, I just watched this today. Pretty eye opening:
http://dogfoodchat.com/forum/dog-food-ingredients/12088-documentary-pet-food-dogs-breakfast.html


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## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

you know, I don't think there are true definitive studies. But what did dogs eat before 1930? 

We act like this dry food thing has been around for millenia. It hasn't. It's an iota dot on the evolutionary scale. 

Why do we need a scientific study to tell us that animals successfully eat raw meat?

What's crazier to me is that we are so brainwashed by the marketing companies that we think dry processed crap is what dogs are supposed to eat. And I include myself in that. We ALSO like convenience. It is easy for us to tell ourselves that pouring crap out of a bag is good for our dogs because it takes no work.

I am taking a different tack these days. Don't prove to me PMR works. I have enough proof with my dogs, and with the knowledge of those who have been feeding PMR for years.

Prove to me it doesn't. THAT cannot be done.


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

http://orijen.ca/downloads/ORIJEN_White_Paper.pdf

whilst that might not be proof, it's the closest i've found that suggests dogs are related to wolves and are total carnivores.

i am taking the same stance xelill is taking...prove to me that kibble is the only way to roll.....


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## Dude and Bucks Mamma (May 14, 2011)

I feel the same way xellil does. 

WHY do people think that dogs are supposed to eat kibble? How are dogs still around if they have only had kibble for the past century (and it hasn't even been THAT long since kibble became the mainstream dog diet)? We don't see ANY wild animals eating kibble in their natural habitat. How can something man made and processed to death be better than whole foods that have been minimally, if at all, tampered with?

The others posted great links and what is great about Orijen's white paper is that it is a dog food company basically telling you that their kibble is as close as they can get to what is best for dogs.


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## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

You know, in the other thread I posted about my dog Captain we were too poor to buy dog food, but the ranch we lived on furnished beef. At that time, my dog lived on T-bone steaks!! I had totally forgotten. I probably cooked them, though.


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

xellil said:


> You know, in the other thread I posted about my dog Captain we were too poor to buy dog food, but the ranch we lived on furnished beef. At that time, my dog lived on T-bone steaks!! I had totally forgotten. I probably cooked them, though.


back in the day, and i mean way back in the day, hunting dogs were fed bread soaked in sour milk to give them endurance. whilst it might be grain, i can see why these dogs were fed that, as grains would be something that sticks to the ribs.

was it right? maybe not...but certainly it wasn't kibble.

and a cooked t bone still is better than kibble. at least it looks real.


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## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

magicre said:


> back in the day, and i mean way back in the day, hunting dogs were fed bread soaked in sour milk to give them endurance. whilst it might be grain, i can see why these dogs were fed that, as grains would be something that sticks to the ribs.
> 
> was it right? maybe not...but certainly it wasn't kibble.
> 
> and a cooked t bone still is better than kibble. at least it looks real.


yep, in the places we didn't get free beef our dogs often ate what we ate - which was powdered milk, beans, cornbread and whatever veggies I had canned. 

I am trying to remember the first time I bought a bag of dry dog food. I remember feeding our dogs a can of Alpo now and then as a little kid, but as an adult I just can't remember. It snuck up on me, I guess. I probably saw one of those great commercials on TV and ran out and bought some.


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## CoverTune (Dec 20, 2011)

Mondo said:


> There are no studies on kibble either.


Actually there are heaps of feeding trials done by the prescription diet companies. NOT that I'm supporting them/kibble/etc, but they do studies on packs of their own dogs.

Thanks for the links, I look forward to reading them!


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## SpooOwner (Oct 1, 2010)

This question has been asked a lot here. If you look through the archives, you'll find that there is no science behind the raw diet - either for or against raw. But Champion has a white paper and JAHVMA has a few articles by Dr. Steve Brown that are relevant and support a natural diet.


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## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

Where's that thing that says when dog food is tested, only four of eight dogs have to live through an eight week trial? Or something similarly horrible?


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## naturalfeddogs (Jan 6, 2011)

​Wolves and the effects on my dogs, that I see with my own eyes is proof enough for me. When was the last time you saw a wolf in walmart buying a bag of kibble? Or cooking their kill over an open fire in the wild?


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## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

naturalfeddogs said:


> ​Wolves and the effects on my dogs, that I see with my own eyes is proof enough for me. When was the last time you saw a wolf in walmart buying a bag of kibble? Or cooking their kill over an open fire in the wild?


Yes, it's easy to look at my own dogs and see the difference. It's a huge difference - not only in the dogs, but in the $$$ spent on vet bills.


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## Herzo (Feb 5, 2011)

xellil said:


> Where's that thing that says when dog food is tested, only four of eight dogs have to live through an eight week trial? Or something similarly horrible?


This is my understanding also. So to me this is no test. I bet I could feed my dog straight chicken for that long no organs and have the same luck or better. How do they get away with saying this is a test?


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## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

Herzo said:


> This is my understanding also. So to me this is no test. I bet I could feed my dog straight chicken for that long no organs and have the same luck or better. How do they get away with saying this is a test?


Yes. I was pretty appalled by it and i wish I had it so maybe I'll look tonight if someone else doesn't turn it up. 

One of the things I read yesterday was that the calcium in dry dog food is often binded in limestone so absolutely none of it is available to your dog. It goes through with being absorbed at all.

So the ingredients list has a boatload of calcium listed that might as well say rocks and sticks.

But I doubt a calcium deficiency would show up in 8 weeks.


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## doggoblin (Jun 6, 2011)

CoverTune said:


> Actually there are heaps of feeding trials done by the prescription diet companies.


But you need independent studies not ones where they may fudge the method to get the results they want. The documentary already posted Pet Food: A Dog's Breakfast I believe has an example of this.
LeppertSapy Report suggests "homemade food" could potentially add 3 years to your dogs life. Not raw specifically but something to think about.


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## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

I found it, or at least a reference to it:



> In an AAFCO feeding trial, *SIX ANIMALS (OUT OF EIGHT) must survive on the food for SIX MONTH*S
> 
> Question
> What does it mean on a pet food label that a product has been tested using animal
> ...


Yep, I'd trust my dog with food tested like that. :wacko: And some dog food dont' even have a feeding trial with real dogs! They just test the ingredients to make sure they are there.

Pet Food Crusade - Inadequacy of AAFCO requirements, pet food feeding trials, complete balanced nutrition for pets, dogs, cats


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## Mondo (Dec 20, 2011)

What would be needed is a double blind study, with PMR, BARF, and an assortment of kibbles. Some grain free premium, some grocery store brands.

As many have mentioned, there isn't any money in that. 

The parallels between bad human diets, with fast food and processed foods, and kibble, to me, is eye opening.


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## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

Mondo said:


> What would be needed is a double blind study, with PMR, BARF, and an assortment of kibbles. Some grain free premium, some grocery store brands.
> 
> As many have mentioned, there isn't any money in that.
> 
> The parallels between bad human diets, with fast food and processed foods, and kibble, to me, is eye opening.


i have a feeling if the dog food companies thought a real trial putting kibble up against PMR or BARF would prove something good for them, they would have done it long, long ago. They are the ones with the cash.

Maybe they tried it, and we'll just never see it. Or maybe they know better than to try it because they know how their dog food is made and what goes into it.

OR, maybe they don't think it's worth it because they have such a powerful marketing machine and don't see raw feeding as any kind of threat to them.


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## Imgliniel (Sep 1, 2011)

Mondo said:


> What would be needed is a double blind study, with PMR, BARF, and an assortment of kibbles. Some grain free premium, some grocery store brands.
> 
> As many have mentioned, there isn't any money in that.
> 
> The parallels between bad human diets, with fast food and processed foods, and kibble, to me, is eye opening.



I swear if I ever become filthy rich I am going to do this. Except I don't know if I could stand feeding a group of dogs the low end kibble, but on the flip side if no one ever does an unbiased study prooving there is a difference between premium and crap there will never be proof to point to. *sigh* The ethical dilema of a study group vs the greater good of Dog kind. haha.


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## 3Musketeers (Nov 4, 2010)

Look at it this way...

Kibble studies, they exist. Who funds them? Multi-billion dollar Pet food companies. They publish whatever results will benefit them and profit from them.
They can spew out whatever information will gain them an increase in sales.


Raw studies, there is no such thing as a multi-billion dollar "Raw" Pet food company to fund studies for profits.
Kibble companies are obviously not going to publish any studies which may show benefits of a raw diet. It is in their best interest to publish studies *against* raw diets. Even if it is falsified information.
Some of them already do, look at Science Diet for example.

Will it ever change? Who knows? But right now, the studies are where the money is.
If they have the power to scare clueless people out of home-cooking or raw and put more money in their pockets, who's to stop them?


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## tem_sat (Jun 20, 2010)

xellil said:


> i have a feeling if the dog food companies thought a real trial putting kibble up against PMR or BARF would prove something good for them, they would have done it long, long ago. They are the ones with the cash.
> 
> Maybe they tried it, and we'll just never see it. Or maybe they know better than to try it because they know how their dog food is made and what goes into it.
> 
> OR, maybe they don't think it's worth it because they have such a powerful marketing machine and don't see raw feeding as any kind of threat to them.


Think back to Tom Lonsdale. A test such as that would screw up the perfect workings of the Big Ag / Big Pet Food / Vet Machine. There is zero motivation, I would assume. Please excuse the exaggeration, but you know what I mean.


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## bully4life (Aug 9, 2010)

Im guessing that thousands of years of evolution is good enough for me....


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

whenever i used to look up prescriptions......so much of the time it would say 

mechanism of action: unknown.

it just worked for whatever ailment we were prescribing for.....no one knew why...

that's how i feel about raw.....i fed kibble...and my dogs looked fine until they died prematurely because of my ignorance.....i fed home cooked and my dogs looked fine.

if the mechanism of action for raw is unknown, that's fine, because my dogs are fine......they are better than fine....i don't care why.


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## Dude and Bucks Mamma (May 14, 2011)

People ARE starting to realize that they are being lied to though. Even Petco and PetSmart are starting to carry premade raw. I don't know if it is any good but it's a start. We have a store here called Naturally4paws that has several freezers full of premade and whole raw. They have things like Nature's Variety little chicken disk things as well as some other commercially made premade as well as some bison, venison,rabbit, beef, etc sausage rolls of ground meat (and other things). They even carry duck necks, turkey necks and (unfortunately) beef and bison marrow bones. They have some other whole things but I can't remember what. It is all ridiculously overpriced compared to what most of us buy but they are headed in the right direction. It's a great little store.


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## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

yes, they do see the options. I remember when I first saw frozen Bill-Jack. Really, it was like finding a toad in my underwear drawer. What????


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## Noodlesmadison (Sep 18, 2011)

CoverTune said:


> Actually there are heaps of feeding trials done by the prescription diet companies. NOT that I'm supporting them/kibble/etc, but they do studies on packs of their own dogs.
> 
> Thanks for the links, I look forward to reading them!


You do realize that they perform these tests on abused and starved dogs... correct? Have you seen inside the Iams testing facility? Google that.


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## CoverTune (Dec 20, 2011)

Noodlesmadison said:


> You do realize that they perform these tests on abused and starved dogs... correct? Have you seen inside the Iams testing facility? Google that.


We don't carry Iams, we carry Hills and Medi-Cal, and several of our doctors actually did go and visit the manufacturing plants in person. I'd rather NOT rely on Google for everything, because *gasp* the internet isn't always right... but thanks.

I also don't understand how they could possibly do feeding trials on starved dogs.. that's an oxymoron or something, lol.


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## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

CoverTune said:


> We don't carry Iams, we carry Hills and Medi-Cal, and several of our doctors actually did go and visit the manufacturing plants in person. I'd rather NOT rely on Google for everything, because *gasp* the internet isn't always right... but thanks.
> 
> I also don't understand how they could possibly do feeding trials on starved dogs.. that's an oxymoron or something, lol.


Well, you also wouldn't think they'd put sawdust in dog food. Or euthanized animals. But they do.

No, you shouldn't rely on Google for everything but you shouldn't dismiss it out of hand either. 

I don't know if they use starved dogs or not - but do you know they don't? PETA has taken hidden cameras into alot of these places and caught things on tape I would have never believed. I'm not a big fan of PETA but they have certainly opened people's eyes as to what these people will and will not do - and it normally hits a low that's unimaginable to most people.

And if you take an undernourished dog and feed it something, it's probably going to get better. Makes perfect sense to me.


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## CoverTune (Dec 20, 2011)

I really really don't want to debate prescription diets.. so I'm not going to. :smile:


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## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

CoverTune said:


> I really really don't want to debate prescription diets.. so I'm not going to. :smile:


That's probably a good idea, although you seemed perfectly willing to debate when snarky comments about someone looking at things on Google were what you wanted to say.

Is Iam's prescription?


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## CoverTune (Dec 20, 2011)

I believe Iams has a prescription line, yes.


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## Scarlett_O' (May 19, 2011)

xellil said:


> That's probably a good idea, although you seemed perfectly willing to debate when snarky comments about someone looking at things on Google were what you wanted to say.
> 
> Is Iam's prescription?


Ya, they have their "Iam's Veterinary Formulas" uke:


And just for sh**s and giggles, here are a couple of their lines and their ingredient list!:tongue:

Iams® Veterinary Formula™ Renal Plus
"Renal - Early Stage is designed to address the nutritional needs of your dog once kidney problems have been identified by your veterinarian. It provides optimum protein levels to help maintain body condition, muscular mass, and immune and organ function. There are special ingredients to minimize wastes building up in the bloodstream. It has reduced phosphorus levels to help slow the progression of renal damage. "

"Corn Meal, Corn Grits, Chicken, Brewer's Rice, Dried Beet Pulp, Soy Protein Isolate, Fish Meal, Chicken Flavor, Chicken Fat (preserved with mixed Tocopherols, a source of Vitamin E), Dried Egg Product, Gum Arabic, Fructooligosaccharides, Brewer's Dried Yeast, Calcium Carbonate, Salt, Fish Oil (preserved with mixed Tocopherols, a source of Vitamin E), Potassium Chloride, Flax Meal, Vitamins (Vitamin E Supplement, Beta-Carotene, Calcium Pantothenate, Biotin, Niacin, Vitamin B12 Supplement, Thiamine Mononitrate [source of Vitamin B1], Pyridoxine Hydrochloride [source of Vitamin B6], Vitamin A Acetate, Riboflavin Supplement [source of Vitamin B2], Inositol, Folic Acid, Vitamin D3 Supplement), Potassium Citrate, DL-Methionine, Choline Chloride, Minerals (Ferrous Sulfate, Zinc Oxide, Manganese Sulfate, Copper Sulfate, Manganous Oxide, Potassium Iodide, Cobalt Carbonate), Ethoxyquin (a preservative), Rosemary Extract"




Iams® Veterinary Formula™ Skin & Coat Plus Response™ FP 

"Start to nutritionally manage his itching, whether from food or environment, in as little as 3 weeks.The nutrition in Iams® Veterinary Formulas Skin & Coat - Response™ FP formula can help nutritionally manage your dog's itching and scratching. So whether his sensitivities are coming from food, his environment or both, you can promote a healthy skin and coat through:

a balance of omega-6 and omega-3 fatty acids, which are found in ingredients such as canola and fish oil, can nutritionally manage your dog's OR cat's itching and scratching,
a combination of unique proteins and carbohydrates which can reduce the risk of a reaction to food,
a complete vitamin and mineral package which restores nutrients to develop a healthy skin and coat,
an optimal level of linoleic acid, which is found in high-quality animal-based protein (without enough linoleic acid, your pet may experience a dull/dry coat, hair loss, oily skin, and increased susceptibility to skin inflammation)."

"Potato, Herring Meal (source of Fish Oil), Catfish, Animal Fat (preserved with mixed Tocopherols, a source of Vitamin E), Dried Beet Pulp, Fish Digest, Calcium Carbonate, Dicalcium Phosphate, Sodium Hexametaphosphate, Vitamins (Vitamin E Supplement, Ascorbic Acid, Vitamin A Acetate, Calcium Pantothenate, Biotin, Thiamine Mononitrate [source of Vitamin B1], Vitamin B12 Supplement, Niacin, Riboflavin Supplement [source of Vitamin B2], Inositol, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride [source of Vitamin B6], Vitamin D3 Supplement, Folic Acid), Choline Chloride, Potassium Chloride, DL-Methionine, Minerals (Ferrous Sulfate, Zinc Oxide, Manganese Sulfate, Copper Sulfate, Manganous Oxide, Potassium Iodide, Cobalt Carbonate), Ethoxyquin (a preservative)"

and last but NOT least this one...which makes me throw up in my mouth every time I read it!! This SH** is suppose to be for a PUPPY...a FREAKING PUPPY!!!!

Iams® Veterinary Formula™ Intestinal Plus Low-Residue™ Puppy 

"Loose stools can have many causes. Although the problem can be caused by something more serious, your veterinarian can explain how dogs and cats can develop loose stools from something as simple as heat, exercise, diet, or stress from boarding.

In 3 days*, you can start to soothe your pet's digestive sensitivities. Iams® Veterinary Formulas Intestinal - Low-Residue™ works by providing a unique blend of high-quality fiber, protein, and fat sources to help naturally strengthen the intestine and make digestion easier. In a clinical study, dogs with stress-related loose stools were fed Intestinal - Low-Residue™. Overall, they showed:

noticeable improvement (some firming) after 3 days
fewer daily episodes of loose stools after 1 week

Like the dogs in our study, your pet may start to show results in 3 days, although results may vary based on the cause of loose stools and individual response to nutritional management.

*Data on file, P&G Pet Care

Managing intestinal health.

Not only do Intestinal - Low-Residue™ formulas help manage intestinal health, they offer complete nutrition, so they can be fed long-term. In addition to being formulated to provide complete nutrition, our dry puppy formulas also contain Iams Daily Dental Care™, which:

helps promote healthy teeth by slowing tartar buildup†
works on the whole mouth, not just the chewing surface
is designed to work during and after meals

Ask your veterinarian about our intestinal health formulas.

†Data on file, P&G Pet Care

Intestinal health formulas. Iams® Veterinary Formulas Intestinal - Low-Residue™ formulas are designed to nutritionally aid in the management of gastrointestinal conditions. Your veterinarian may recommend these diets when your pet is experiencing vomiting, loose stools, gas, or constipation. Ask your veterinarian about other intestinal concerns that Low Residue may be recommended for."

"hicken By-Product Meal, Corn Grits, Chicken, Brewer's Rice, Chicken Fat (preserved with mixed Tocopherols, a source of Vitamin E), Dried Beet Pulp, Chicken Flavor, Dried Egg Product, Fish Oil (preserved with mixed Tocopherols, a source of Vitamin E), Dicalcium Phosphate, Brewer's Dried Yeast, Fructooligosaccharides, Salt, Potassium Chloride, Flax Meal, Vitamins (Vitamin E Supplement, Ascorbic Acid, Vitamin A Acetate, Calcium Pantothenate, Biotin, Thiamine Mononitrate [source of Vitamin B1], Vitamin B12 Supplement, Niacin, Riboflavin Supplement [source of Vitamin B2], Inositol, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride [source of Vitamin B6], Vitamin D3 Supplement, Folic Acid), Calcium Carbonate, Choline Chloride, DL-Methionine, Minerals (Ferrous Sulfate, Zinc Oxide, Manganese Sulfate, Copper Sulfate, Manganous Oxide, Potassium Iodide, Cobalt Carbonate), Ethoxyquin (a preservative), Rosemary Extract"


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## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

I don't know whether to laugh or cry at that. By-product a first ingredient? Or corn? That's just sad, and sick.


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