# dog with pancreatitis more susceptible to salmonella?



## Nana52 (Apr 28, 2012)

xellil said:


> dogs will get salmonella if they are immune compromised. And frankly, alot of dogs with food allergies, pancreatitis, cancer, etc. are probably susceptible.


I've been reading about and contemplating switching to raw for a few months now, on the verge of making the leap, and this is the first time I've seen/heard this! Kody had a bout of pancreatitis almost 4 months ago; so now I guess I shouldn't feed him raw? I wasn't even all that worried about the whole bacteria aspect, just trying to get over my fear of bones. Now must step back and rethink. Rats!


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## Gally (Jan 28, 2012)

"Pancreatitis, kidney disease, and other diseases claimed to be linked to raw feeding are in the same boat as bacterial septicemia. What generally happens is that a) there are underlying factors, b) there is an underlying disease, and c) the raw diet brings these to light. With pancreatitis, it is typically kibble-fed dogs that suffer from it when they receive a fatty meat they do not usually get. It is also incredibly important to note that fat does not cause pancreatitis; excess fat is simply a trigger for pancreatitis and may start the cascade of effects in the pancreas. If ingesting a fatty meal triggers a bout of pancreatitis, then that is indicative of some other underlying problem with the pancreas (again, ask "Why this dog? Why now?" Not every dog that eats raw meat or high quantities of fat "gets" pancreatitis, so something about that particular dog indicates "susceptibility"); the pancreatitis itself is a symptom that the pancreas (and possibly other organs) are not well, because a healthy dog with a healthy pancreas will not suffer from pancreatitis. Surprisingly, many dogs that previously suffered from these diseases while eating kibble have dramatically improved since switching to a raw diet. Just wander around the Yahoo! Rawfeeding group and you will hear some amazing testimonials. Just the fact that kibble-fed dogs can also suffer horrific and deadly bouts of pancreatitis should be sufficient to show that this is not a 'raw feeding' problem, particularly when dogs with pancreas problems can be greatly helped from a raw diet (since it is easier to digest and actually places less demand on the pancreas). Can pancreatitis or kidney disease happen in a raw-fed dog? Yes, they could. All things are possible, particularly when one has no control over the kind of start the dog received in life (breeding, what the parents were fed, what the pup was fed, what vaccinations and wormers it received, etc.)."
Myths About Raw: An Honest, Candid Conclusion
Rebuttal to Second Chance Ranch


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## Kwpgrooming (May 20, 2012)

My standard poodle has had mammary cancer. She has had surgery twice for it and is 12. She has no problem with raw. I think most food allergies and pancreatitis etc. are caused by poor diet. My shih tzu has had pancreatitis but only while eating kibble. Has never had it on raw. I would just transition slowly.


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## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

I woldn't worry about it, frankly. It's been four months. 

There is chronic pancreatitis and acute pancreatitis - chronic, over time, can weaken a dog. It doesn't sound like that is your case.

I did not mean to scare you off! Like Gally said, dogs that are susceptible will be susceptible from ANY source, and also to other problems because their bodies are not healthy.

In fact, from what i've read dogs that have bouts of pancreatitis are often cured on raw.


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## Nana52 (Apr 28, 2012)

I guess what I can't get a handle on is, at what point does acute turn into chronic. Or does it necessarily? He had the acute episode 4 months ago, really wasn't terribly sick (not even close to some of the accounts I've read where dogs exhibit signs of sever pain, repeated vomiting, requiring days of hospitalization and IV meds, etc). I really thought he was "off his feed" due to having a dental cleaning 1-1/2 weeks prior and the antibiotics at that time made him sick. But when his enzyme levels came back about 4-5 times higher than normal....yikes! Vet said he has really bad pancreatitis. Since then he seems to have recovered completely, from where I'm standing, not a single episode of not wanting to eat, not a single episode of vomiting or diarrhea or anything whatsoever, and his last set of lab was totally back within normal limits (scheduled for a recheck the first week in July). BUT vet keeps telling me I've got to be so careful not to do anything to trigger another attack, she's worried he'll have another attack, to the point I'm absolutely paranoid, obsessively removing skin and fat (I home cook, no kibble) yada yada yada. So one spell is acute until if/when he has another and then it becomes chronic? And if it becomes chronic, he would be more "susceptible" to bacteria in raw? Am I making any sense or just rambling?


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## Makovach (Jan 24, 2012)

Nalah had ongoing pancreatic problems when eating kibble. As well as seizures. We were going to the vet at least once a month for the pancreatic problems. After going raw with her, she stopped the pancreatic problems as well as the seizures. She was never affected by raw negatively. And now that I have her back and she is once again on raw, she is blossoming and becoming healthy again.


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## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

Nana52 said:


> I guess what I can't get a handle on is, at what point does acute turn into chronic. Or does it necessarily? He had the acute episode 4 months ago, really wasn't terribly sick (not even close to some of the accounts I've read where dogs exhibit signs of sever pain, repeated vomiting, requiring days of hospitalization and IV meds, etc). I really thought he was "off his feed" due to having a dental cleaning 1-1/2 weeks prior and the antibiotics at that time made him sick. But when his enzyme levels came back about 4-5 times higher than normal....yikes! Vet said he has really bad pancreatitis. Since then he seems to have recovered completely, from where I'm standing, not a single episode of not wanting to eat, not a single episode of vomiting or diarrhea or anything whatsoever, and his last set of lab was totally back within normal limits (scheduled for a recheck the first week in July). BUT vet keeps telling me I've got to be so careful not to do anything to trigger another attack, she's worried he'll have another attack, to the point I'm absolutely paranoid, obsessively removing skin and fat (I home cook, no kibble) yada yada yada. So one spell is acute until if/when he has another and then it becomes chronic? And if it becomes chronic, he would be more "susceptible" to bacteria in raw? Am I making any sense or just rambling?


No, it becomes chronic over time as the pancreas is destroyed. It's not the pancreatitis that would make him more susceptible, it would be him being really sick from it repeatedly to the point where his body is not functioning properly.

If that makes sense. I'm sorry I used the term "pancreatitis" and it scared you - it's any illness that makes a dog's immune system not work properly, or maybe make their stomach juices not kill the bacteria, or just something not go right in general. 


Personally, i think he is a prime candidate for raw, to solve the problem forever. It really doesn't seem to me like you have anything to worry about. 

He sounds perfectly healthy to me, with one weird instance a few months ago right after he had anesthesia and antibiotics.

Now, I want you to remove the fear of salmonella from your brain. I don't think he has any more chance of getting it than my dogs.

Read what Makovich said - THOSE are the stories you need to focus on!


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## Makovach (Jan 24, 2012)

Nana52 said:


> I guess what I can't get a handle on is, at what point does acute turn into chronic. Or does it necessarily? He had the acute episode 4 months ago, really wasn't terribly sick (not even close to some of the accounts I've read where dogs exhibit signs of sever pain, repeated vomiting, requiring days of hospitalization and IV meds, etc). I really thought he was "off his feed" due to having a dental cleaning 1-1/2 weeks prior and the antibiotics at that time made him sick. But when his enzyme levels came back about 4-5 times higher than normal....yikes! Vet said he has really bad pancreatitis. Since then he seems to have recovered completely, from where I'm standing, not a single episode of not wanting to eat, not a single episode of vomiting or diarrhea or anything whatsoever, and his last set of lab was totally back within normal limits (scheduled for a recheck the first week in July). BUT vet keeps telling me I've got to be so careful not to do anything to trigger another attack, she's worried he'll have another attack, to the point I'm absolutely paranoid, obsessively removing skin and fat (I home cook, no kibble) yada yada yada. So one spell is acute until if/when he has another and then it becomes chronic? And if it becomes chronic, he would be more "susceptible" to bacteria in raw? Am I making any sense or just rambling?


Dogs have the salmonella bacteria in their system naturally. They have the bile and highly acidic stomach acid it takes to kill keep the bacteria down to a minimum. People do not harbor the bacteria which is why they get sick easier. We also do not have the highly acidic stomach acid or bile to deal with it. 

Poor diet or (in Nalah's case) inappropriate diet makes it harder on the organs to function. By feeding raw, the system doesn't have to work as hard to get through the food and get what the body needs. Nalah had at least 8 attacks in less than a year. She was on kibble. Then went to a rice, potatoes and cooked chicken diet the vet recommended and it continued. I started her on raw (she at the skin and fat on the chicken quarters) and she never had another issue until she was re-homed and taken off of her raw diet. 

IMO and experience, feeding a prey model raw diet saved Nalah. I could not afford (and if I knew what I know now, wouldn't want her on) all the medications they wanted her to take. Simply changing her diet to something her body could process stopped the problem. My vet recommended home cooking in the first place to get her off the hard to digest kibble and give her body a break. Raw just took it that one step further to where she could process everything she ate there for- no more problems.


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## Nana52 (Apr 28, 2012)

Makovach said:


> Nalah had ongoing pancreatic problems when eating kibble. As well as seizures. We were going to the vet at least once a month for the pancreatic problems. After going raw with her, she stopped the pancreatic problems as well as the seizures. She was never affected by raw negatively. And now that I have her back and she is once again on raw, she is blossoming and becoming healthy again.


Did I mention Kody also has seizures? Working on getting him off phenobarbital or at least lowering as much as possible .... against vet's advice I might add. I've totally stopped any/all grains, and I'm convinced that's helping. If raw would help even more (realize it's not a "cure all") that would be awesome! Thanks for this.


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## Nana52 (Apr 28, 2012)

xellil said:


> No, it becomes chronic over time as the pancreas is destroyed. It's not the pancreatitis that would make him more susceptible, it would be him being really sick from it repeatedly to the point where his body is not functioning properly.
> 
> If that makes sense. I'm sorry I used the term "pancreatitis" and it scared you - it's any illness that makes a dog's immune system not work properly, or maybe make their stomach juices not kill the bacteria, or just something not go right in general.
> 
> ...


Thanks for this. I see what you're saying now (don't scare me again, okay?) Salmonella .... gone (at least moved way far back in my mind :smile.


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## KittyKat (Feb 11, 2011)

Like I said in the other thread - its not really an issue in a raw diet as everything moves through the system much faster. The types of salmonella encountered are also different. 

Its things like kibble that should be the worry in this case.


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## Kwpgrooming (May 20, 2012)

I would wonder if he really had pancreatitis. Is that the only time he as had it? Sometimes dogs throw up or get diarrhea just like humans do. Humans dont panic and think they are going to die and stop eating certain foods. Vets will sometimes use the label pancreatitis because they really don't know. It is a term kind of like hotspot. just a general label for I don't know. As a groomer I have sent dogs to the vet with hotspots and the vet tells them I clipper burned the dog which is amazing since it was there before the bath or haircut. I called a vet once and chewed him out and he said well if the dog got groomed recently we just assume that is the cause. Chronic means every time you turn around the dog is throwing up and has diarrhea. Stress can even cause diarrhea. My son moved out 2 months ago and my standard poodle pooped blood for 2 days. This happens any time I go out of town or board her or something different that stresses her. She gets over it on her own every time. For those whose dogs may get diarrhea pumpkin and/or red raspberry leaf help. Peppermint for upset stomache or constipation. I know these aren't meats but they work, and are better than chemical drugs. I make meat based treats and mix the herbs in. Makes for easy dosing.


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## Makovach (Jan 24, 2012)

Nana52 said:


> Did I mention Kody also has seizures? Working on getting him off phenobarbital or at least lowering as much as possible .... against vet's advice I might add. I've totally stopped any/all grains, and I'm convinced that's helping. If raw would help even more (realize it's not a "cure all") that would be awesome! Thanks for this.


Note that not all dogs seizures are related to diet.

Nalah has idiopathic seizures. Meaning they had no clue why it was happening. Her phenobarbital made her have more seizures. So I had to find a way to treat her with out it because I wasn't going to keep her on something that made her have them worse. I read up and learned about food when I noticed that when she was on home cooking, her seizures were less than eating kibble, but still occurred. We did trial and error (accompanied by my vet) and put her through hell. We found that she has terrible seizures when eating Wheat, soy or corn (a couple a week), With Oats, brown rice and potatoes they were less often (maybe every other week) and PMR is just what clicked in my head because she wasn't reacting to any meat components. So I gave it a shot against my vet's advice (she was against raw meat) and she didn't have any more problems.


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## Nana52 (Apr 28, 2012)

Makovach said:


> Note that not all dogs seizures are related to diet.
> 
> Nalah has idiopathic seizures. Meaning they had no clue why it was happening. Her phenobarbital made her have more seizures. So I had to find a way to treat her with out it because I wasn't going to keep her on something that made her have them worse. I read up and learned about food when I noticed that when she was on home cooking, her seizures were less than eating kibble, but still occurred. We did trial and error (accompanied by my vet) and put her through hell. We found that she has terrible seizures when eating Wheat, soy or corn (a couple a week), With Oats, brown rice and potatoes they were less often (maybe every other week) and PMR is just what clicked in my head because she wasn't reacting to any meat components. So I gave it a shot against my vet's advice (she was against raw meat) and she didn't have any more problems.


Kody was having seizures long before I adopted him, so I have not a clue what caused his either (my uneducated guess is genetics, because he is what one might call an "oversized" pomeranian, usually due to careless breeding), but of course could be any number of things. I do not necessarily related to diet, but did read about possibility of grains lowering seizure threshold (and being that dogs don't need grains in any case), I stopped them, you know, just in case. Now I'm oh, so, slowly decreasing his phenobarbital while oh, so, slowly adding on an herbal concoction that I hope is going to help. The phenobarb is slowly killing him, no doubt about it.

My vet says "no grain" just a fad, says I need to pick a kibble and feed it every day forever and ever, amen, says I really need to use flea "poison," vaccinate over and over and over .... haven't dared broach raw with her. Oy vey I need a new vet. Would give my eye teeth (whatever they are) for a holistic. I'm mostly just winging it. Give me strength.


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## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

Nana52 said:


> My vet says "no grain" just a fad, says I need to pick a kibble and feed it every day forever and ever, amen, says I really need to use flea "poison," vaccinate over and over and over .... haven't dared broach raw with her. Oy vey I need a new vet. Would give my eye teeth (whatever they are) for a holistic. I'm mostly just winging it. Give me strength.


Well that's horrible advice. Even if not a holistic vet, you need a vet that understands holistic principles even a tiny bit and will at least admit there may be a relationship between food/vaccines and illness.


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## Nana52 (Apr 28, 2012)

xellil said:


> Well that's horrible advice. Even if not a holistic vet, you need a vet that understands holistic principles even a tiny bit and will at least admit there may be a relationship between food/vaccines and illness.


Agreed. I gotta get me some wheels; right now I don't even have a way to get to another vet (this one is walking distance is the only reason I still go there). I'm so pathetic  I'm just trying to take care of them the very best I can, going with my gut (sure hope it's not just indigestion), and with a little help from my "friends." Thanks.


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

Nana52 said:


> I've been reading about and contemplating switching to raw for a few months now, on the verge of making the leap, and this is the first time I've seen/heard this! Kody had a bout of pancreatitis almost 4 months ago; so now I guess I shouldn't feed him raw? I wasn't even all that worried about the whole bacteria aspect, just trying to get over my fear of bones. Now must step back and rethink. Rats!



pancreatitis has more to do with kibble and sugar than anything else. pancreatitis involves the liver because the pancreas is inflamed....so it cannot do its thang with sugar...which then involves the liver.....once everything is cleared up.....all is well again.

pancreatitis is not a disease. it is an inflammatory process.

once done, generally, unless the dog is continually subjected to the conditions which caused pancreatitis in the first place or is an alcoholic, chances are, it won't come back.

and, just because blood chem values are off, doesn't mean the diagnosis is right in the first place.

doctors and vets too much go by these blood chem values. you should see mine. you'd think i were in multi system failure.

i am immune compromised in ways i'd rather not be.

the only reason to NOT feed raw is because you don't want to. period.

there is no reason to step back and rethink....nana....and we both know that. i say that with sincere respect and admiration for you wanting to try raw.

but, every time you come across yet another myth or something that is only supported by anti raw folks.....you get scared. 

i can understand it. i really do get it.

and fear is the most powerful motivation to not do something.

thing is. i have stage one liver disease, which kicks all kinds of crap into my blood stream. it's very possible your dog never had pancreatitis, if only blood panels were drawn.

all i'm saying is this.

if you're going to feed raw, the one thing that raw does that nothing else does is support the immune system. yes, there is a detox period of time, for which we have all sorts of supps we can give to help get the dog through transition.

but i can promise you, that, if you continue the way you're going now with your dog, kibble will probably create another condition that will take a little more out of your dog.....


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

Nana52 said:


> Kody was having seizures long before I adopted him, so I have not a clue what caused his either (my uneducated guess is genetics, because he is what one might call an "oversized" pomeranian, usually due to careless breeding), but of course could be any number of things. I do not necessarily related to diet, but did read about possibility of grains lowering seizure threshold (and being that dogs don't need grains in any case), I stopped them, you know, just in case. Now I'm oh, so, slowly decreasing his phenobarbital while oh, so, slowly adding on an herbal concoction that I hope is going to help. The phenobarb is slowly killing him, no doubt about it.
> 
> My vet says "no grain" just a fad, says I need to pick a kibble and feed it every day forever and ever, amen, says I really need to use flea "poison," vaccinate over and over and over .... haven't dared broach raw with her. Oy vey I need a new vet. Would give my eye teeth (whatever they are) for a holistic. I'm mostly just winging it. Give me strength.


what about what this vet doesn't make sense to you?

as judge judy says, if it doesn't make sense, then it can't be true.

and if one thing doesn't make sense, i'd be looking for all the rest.

grains cause pancreatitis. they cause colitis. grains are the bane of every dog's existence.
grains cause bad teeth. 

if that's true, then just about everything else your vet has told you might not be true. true?


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## Nana52 (Apr 28, 2012)

magicre said:


> pancreatitis has more to do with kibble and sugar than anything else. pancreatitis involves the liver because the pancreas is inflamed....so it cannot do its thang with sugar...which then involves the liver.....once everything is cleared up.....all is well again.
> 
> pancreatitis is not a disease. it is an inflammatory process.
> 
> ...


I hear you. Really. But just to clarify, dogs were only on kibble a very short time (2 months maybe) for the whole time I've had them (3-4 years), are not on kibble now, and will not be on kibble again. I'll either switch to raw or continue to home cook. But no kibble. Yes, I get nervous. Working on it.


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

Nana52 said:


> I hear you. Really. But just to clarify, dogs were only on kibble a very short time (2 months maybe) for the whole time I've had them (3-4 years), are not on kibble now, and will not be on kibble again. I'll either switch to raw or continue to home cook. But no kibble. Yes, I get nervous. Working on it.


whilst home cooking is a notch above kibble, it has very similar issues to kibble fed dogs. just sayin'.


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## Nana52 (Apr 28, 2012)

Well, I guess I don't know what else to say then. So I guess I'm done.


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