# Not very food-motivated



## Debo & Jinny (Apr 26, 2011)

Jinny is my 3 yr old GSD, who I've had for about 6 months. We've been going to Schutzhund training for about 6 weeks now. She is not very food-motivated at training, though she is more so in the house or in other lower distraction settings (she's always very amped up to go to training). I feed raw, but my trainer keeps telling me I should feed kibble so the training treats are more appealing. I just think there's got to be another way, so I'm looking for opinions & ideas. 

When she came to me, she was a bit overweight. She's now at a healthy weight. But I just don't think she's ever experienced real hunger. She knows she's always going to get dinner that night. So I think I will vary her feeding schedule & have her wait longer than 24 hours for a couple meals this week (I currently feed once a day). I also need to find better training treats. I've been using hot dogs, cheese & cooked meat. The hot dogs are the least effective. 

I know that food isn't her biggest motivator. She's highly prey-driven, so play & tug is a better motivator. But having more food drive would help a lot in tracking, and even in some obedience. 

What do you think?


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## Ania's Mommy (Feb 8, 2009)

I think that food is just not your dog's currency. It happens from time to time. :wink: Is it easier to train a food-motivated dog? Absolutely. Is it impossible to train a non-food motivated dog? Absolutely not!

My husband did Schutzhund with Ania for a minute. We stopped because Ania was not quite cut out for it, and we decided that that was not the kind of dog we wanted (I have the utmost respect for people/dogs that do Schutzhund, it was just not the right fit for us at this time). What we learned from her brief stint was that Ania's favorite reward is playing with that tug thing you use in Schutzhund. We now do Search & Rescue, and her ultimate reward is a few minutes of tug with the Schutzhund thingy. The only time she gets to play with that toy is when she finds someone. NO other times. It sounds like your dog is similar, in that play/interaction is her currency.

Oh, and the advice to feed kibble so that the training treats are more appealing is just... bad advice. You might be able to get Jinny on the food wagon by using better food treats. What kind of raw diet are you feeding? Does she have any foods that she shows a preference for?


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## DaneMama (Jun 27, 2008)

Debo & Jinny said:


> Jinny is my 3 yr old GSD, who I've had for about 6 months. We've been going to Schutzhund training for about 6 weeks now. She is not very food-motivated at training, though she is more so in the house or in other lower distraction settings (she's always very amped up to go to training). I feed raw, but my trainer keeps telling me I should feed kibble so the training treats are more appealing. I just think there's got to be another way, so I'm looking for opinions & ideas.


Maybe try drying out meats that she would get as a meal for her treats. A good dehydrator for meats are only about $50ish (link below). Dehydrate some of her rations and make training treats with it. 

Amazon.com: Nesco FD-75PR 700-Watt Food Dehydrator: Kitchen & Dining



> When she came to me, she was a bit overweight. She's now at a healthy weight. But I just don't think she's ever experienced real hunger. She knows she's always going to get dinner that night. So I think I will vary her feeding schedule & have her wait longer than 24 hours for a couple meals this week (I currently feed once a day). I also need to find better training treats. I've been using hot dogs, cheese & cooked meat. The hot dogs are the least effective.


What about training days...how many days a week are you doing Schutzhund? I would feed her in the morning the day BEFORE training and then not feed her at all until AFTER the training session but even a small meal depending on if you can make some dehydrated meat treats for her. 

What about baby food? I've seen a few handlers use small jars of baby food (meats) as a treat. Open the jar and let the dog lick it once. There are also squeeze tubes that you can fill with peanut butter, canned food, or anything that is messy. They are really convenient and clean. Just let the dog lick the small opening to get the treat.

Amazon.com: Squeeze Tubes: Sports & Outdoors



> I know that food isn't her biggest motivator. She's highly prey-driven, so play & tug is a better motivator. But having more food drive would help a lot in tracking, and even in some obedience.


It doesn't surprise me that she is a tug dog! Maybe downplay the tug game so that she doesn't become too dependent on it?



> What do you think?


Hope this helps!


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## Northwoods10 (Nov 22, 2010)

I was going to suggest not feeding her for a while before the training class.

Our trainers for the labs always asked that we bring HUNGRY dogs to class so they were more willing to learn. 

Is she toy motiviated? Maybe a praise with a special toy would do the trick?


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## SerenityFL (Sep 28, 2010)

DaneMama, I just want to thank you for the squeeze tube idea. I'm not getting my dogs in to any type of Shutzhund stuff but I can also use these for training around here. Way better than what I've been doing, I think and filling it with peanut butter may be just what I need to get them to listen. Or baby food meats....how genius! You're a fricken genius!


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## Debo & Jinny (Apr 26, 2011)

Thanks for all the suggestions! I never knew about the squeeze tube thingy. I might have to look into that. 
I think one of our problems last week (currently we only train w/ the club on Sundays), was that I didn't feed her early enough in the day on Saturday. So she wasn't hungry enough Sunday morning. 
Like most dogs, she goes NUTS for green tripe, but I hope I don't have to resort to that! That wouldn't be fun to handle


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## SerenityFL (Sep 28, 2010)

I've been meaning to ask for the longest time and I suppose it fits in this thread:

Is Shutzhund ONLY for GSD?


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## bernadettelevis (Feb 2, 2011)

SerenityFL said:


> I've been meaning to ask for the longest time and I suppose it fits in this thread:
> 
> Is Shutzhund ONLY for GSD?


i've never done schutzhund, but as far as i know not. I know some mutts and a lab that also do schutzhund.


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## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

Here's a fantastic video of a Jack Russell doing Shutzhund - sorry I can't imbed it, and it's got too many commercials at the first, but I think almost any dog could it.

Schutzhund With A Jack Russell - Video


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## MollyWoppy (Mar 19, 2010)

I want to thank you for that squeeze tube idea too Natalie. I'd never thought of something like that. I can fill it with baby food and it would work perfectly for jackpot treating Mollie whilst we're working on her desensitisation to other reactive dogs. I'm so clumsy that I'm dropping treats all over the place the way I do it now.
You are full of great ideas. Thank You!


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## KlaMarie (Dec 30, 2010)

SerenityFL said:


> I've been meaning to ask for the longest time and I suppose it fits in this thread:
> 
> Is Shutzhund ONLY for GSD?


If you want to compete in certain places or under certain organizations, yes. In some competitions, the GSD also had to be registered and have a tatto. I'm just getting into it myself, but I think if it's not a GSD, you have to compete in a separate "all breed" category, maybe. I don't know that any other breeds are really competative at it though, except for Malinois and GSDs. I know of a couple Dobermanns and Rotties, but finding a real working dog in those breeds is a lot harder do that finding a working GSD or Mal. From what I've heard, a lot of the people with Mals do IPO instead of SchH.


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## luvMyBRT (Mar 8, 2010)

KlaMarie said:


> If you want to compete in certain places or under certain organizations, yes. In some competitions, the GSD also had to be registered and have a tatto. I'm just getting into it myself, but I think if it's not a GSD, you have to compete in a separate "all breed" category, maybe. I don't know that any other breeds are really competative at it though, except for Malinois and GSDs. I know of a couple Dobermanns and Rotties, but finding a real working dog in those breeds is a lot harder do that finding a working GSD or Mal. From what I've heard, a lot of the people with Mals do IPO instead of SchH.


I know of a few Black Russian Terriers that excel at Shutzhund and Personal Protection work. When you think about what they were bred for (Russian Military police/protection dogs) they are for sure a breed that would excel at this....but there just aren't very many BRTs as apposed to GSD and Mals.


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## SerenityFL (Sep 28, 2010)

I don't think I'd ever bother with the competing, just thought it would be pretty neat to have my dogs learn this stuff. Well, the boy, anyway. The girl is too soft for it but the boy, I think he could actually do pretty good. Not competition, but learn it and there are some things about it that I'd really like him to learn.

Anyway, thanks for the answers to that.


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## maplewood (Apr 14, 2011)

Debo & Jinny said:


> Jinny is my 3 yr old GSD, who I've had for about 6 months. We've been going to Schutzhund training for about 6 weeks now. She is not very food-motivated at training, though she is more so in the house or in other lower distraction settings (she's always very amped up to go to training). I feed raw, but my trainer keeps telling me I should feed kibble so the training treats are more appealing. I just think there's got to be another way, so I'm looking for opinions & ideas.
> 
> When she came to me, she was a bit overweight. She's now at a healthy weight. But I just don't think she's ever experienced real hunger. She knows she's always going to get dinner that night. So I think I will vary her feeding schedule & have her wait longer than 24 hours for a couple meals this week (I currently feed once a day). I also need to find better training treats. I've been using hot dogs, cheese & cooked meat. The hot dogs are the least effective.
> 
> ...


Interesting as most working dog trainers I know prefer toy's as a reward to food. While I don't train Sch I have tought people to train the basic obedience using toys as a reward. Absolutely nothing wrong with using toy's if it your dog's best motivater/reward.

If she likes green tripe, you could try the dehydrated stuff. Not as messy as the fresh. Just a thought.


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## KlaMarie (Dec 30, 2010)

luvMyBRT said:


> I know of a few Black Russian Terriers that excel at Shutzhund and Personal Protection work. When you think about what they were bred for (Russian Military police/protection dogs) they are for sure a breed that would excel at this....but there just aren't very many BRTs as apposed to GSD and Mals.


I guess I should have clarified what I said. For sure, many breeds can work in the sport, and even get titled. I've seen a video of a Golden Retriever doing bitework with enthusiasm, he probably could've gotten a SchH1 if he wanted it. 

But the top national and international comptitors in all protection dog sports, almost all have Mals. So if you just wanted to do club level training (like me!), you could find a BRT, Rott, Corso, American Bulldog, or a Jack Russel that would do the work. It might take a little more work and effort to bring out the prey drives you need, but with the right dog, it can be done. 
I've watched in person GSDs, Corsos, Pitt Bulls, American Bulldogs, Dobermanns, and Mals all do correct bitework exercises. But If you REALLY want to be competative in the world of protection dog sports, almost every single person will tell you to get a Malinois/Dutch Shepherd, and I would agree with them. 
It is like night and day to compare the average Mal's drive to any other breed's average drive. And trust me, if BRTs as a breed had the drives Mals do, you would see more of them. These guys don't give a flying flip what a dog looks like, or where he comes from, they only care about work ethic.

But I'd rather have a GSD any day :tongue:, and I'm sure you would rather have a BRT!


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## Debo & Jinny (Apr 26, 2011)

maplewood said:


> Interesting as most working dog trainers I know prefer toy's as a reward to food. While I don't train Sch I have tought people to train the basic obedience using toys as a reward. Absolutely nothing wrong with using toy's if it your dog's best motivater/reward.
> 
> If she likes green tripe, you could try the dehydrated stuff. Not as messy as the fresh. Just a thought.


Yeah, I was looking at some dehydrated tripe treats last night. That would probably work well.

The toy/tug is a good reward for many things. But, since we are just starting, tracking w/ food is important. Not really any other way to do that I can figure. 
Also, using food as a lure to get into correct heel position or frontal postion is helpful. We can train at home w/ food as a lure, easily, but at training, she often will blow it off. Like I don't care about that treat you have, I'm looking at that over there! lol


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## Ania's Mommy (Feb 8, 2009)

I understand why you would use food for tracking; it smells more. But I wonder if you also do a quick session of tug play after she locates the food if that would motivate her to seek out the food.  Might be worth a shot. I would think eventually, she would associate the scent of food with play/reward and then you'd have 'er! :becky:


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## Debo & Jinny (Apr 26, 2011)

That's a good thought, I was sorta thinking along the same lines. I'm going to try a little tracking session tomorrow, and again at training on Sunday. If we complete the track successfully (we did not last Sunday), I will do a 'break & play' at the end of the track w/ the tug toy. 

Thanks for all the ideas! I will report back next week after training & let you all know how we did.



Ania's Mommy said:


> I understand why you would use food for tracking; it smells more. But I wonder if you also do a quick session of tug play after she locates the food if that would motivate her to seek out the food.  Might be worth a shot. I would think eventually, she would associate the scent of food with play/reward and then you'd have 'er! :becky:


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## KlaMarie (Dec 30, 2010)

I read a older thread just recently on the GSD board about how to develope ball drive in a dog that is very tug movitated. The dog didn't have much food drive either. It is a LONG read, but there was a lot of different suggestions.
Ball drive? - German Shepherd Dog Forums

They started discussing building food drive in the same dog after the owner was having success with ball drive on this page.
Ball drive? - Page 7 - German Shepherd Dog Forums

Hope this helps!!! Good luck!


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## monkeys23 (Dec 8, 2010)

I will say it is a huge pita to wean off the food lures for fuss. Just throwing that out there.

Scout when I first got her, we did some confidence & relationship building lessons with a agility instructor who uses clicker and shaping exercises. We had to get really creative with treats for Scout because she'll refuse treats. Cheese, lunchmeat, etc.
I really really like how the shaping exercises with the clicker reinforced her natural focus on me. Scout likes toys way better though.

This site had a really interesting portion on introducing articles. I found it useful anyway. Schutzhund-Training.com - Obedience

Stella & Chewey's treats are a huge hit. Maybe try those? Or the tripe you were looking at...

I have an easier time working Scout an on empty tummy, but Lily is a huge bitch if she's hungry and will blow me off. She has an eating disorder basically though, so she's excused.

USA is GSD centric: United Schutzhund Clubs of America - For the German Shepherd Dog
DVG is all breed: DVG AMERICA Main Menu

I love Schutzhund, but I don't have the resources to compete right now and frankly while I could force it and get my mutt dogs titled... I really don't care that much, its more about learning for me. I'll worry about competing when I've got a "real" dog.

I've seen Boxer's, Dobe's, Rotties, Beaucerons (awesome, awesome breed!), a giant Schnauzer, and an Austrailian Shepherd out at club/training.

Man... I wish we had more ringsport out west... My trainer's dogs were trained in French Ring. They are freaking glorious dogs.
My trainer is awesome, he's so positive with the dogs. I do obedience on my own and train in protection with him a couple times a week. I did a lot of groundwork in sport tracking with Lily, but none with Scout yet... I've not had time to track recently to be honest.
I almost died laughing the one day Scout suddenly decided she wanted to work. She gets tied out when we work Lily because we use my car as part of it and after watching for nearly a year, one day she just started barking. Even being much newer to it, its obvious she is more genetically geared to the work from the way she plays tug. She actually has really nice drives despite her baggage from past owners.

I thought I wanted a GSD next. Until I met a real Malinois. Holy. Crap. They are amazing. I fully admit I am sick and twisted for loving them so much. Next dog will be a Malinois or Dutch Shepherd for sure. I really, really love brindle dogs so I may go with the latter. You have no idea how much a brindle shepherd just geeks me out. I can't wait until I can just start with a clean slate and have a dog with no issues from previous owners and who knows what kind of breeding. Its probably a long damn way off though.

I got to watch to watch two 13 week old imported pups (from the Netherlands out of KNPV titled parents) doing some groundwork games (one will be a K9 and the other a PP/sport dog... won't know which till they are finished) the sunday before last.... amazing what drive and confidence is present even in the babies! LOL, the fact that you have to work on imprinting the calming down out of drive instead of the building, building, building of drive that you have to do with other breeds (even many GSD's) says a lot I think.

We've got two Dobe's that just started coming to training. One is an old lady of 8 who was titled to a Schutzhund 1 before becoming a brood bitch, she's now an old dude's service dog in her retirement. Its interesting to see how she's totally focused on just the equipment from that Schutzhund training, as opposed to on the "bad guy". She's only doing very light work of course, but its fascinating to watch the exercises trying to get her less focused on the equipment (or toy if you will...).


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## Debo & Jinny (Apr 26, 2011)

Thanks for the links KlaMarie & Monkeys. I will definitely look into those. And I could see where the lure could become a problem down the road. Since luring isn't working that well anyways, I think we won't rely on it too much & just try to use the food for rewards. She's starting to get it, so we are making progress. Slow, plodding progress, but progress all the same.

And Monkeys, you are sick & twisted. LOL! j/k I love Mals too, but I really don't think I could handle one. I'm too lazy. :heh:


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## monkeys23 (Dec 8, 2010)

I will say that weaning off the food luring was probably more a problem with Lily than it would be with most dogs... poor thing has a compulsive eating disorder + Sibe aloofness... I heart my nutbar.

Hahaha, yeah I think I have a problem. Its bad when you think the GSD/Sibe mix isn't cracked out enough...

You know, I bet she does the slow progress and then bam one day she'll shock you with what she's picked up slowly thinking through things.


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## Debo & Jinny (Apr 26, 2011)

Just a little update: Training last Sunday went GREAT!!! 

Her food-drive was good, she tracked better than she has yet since we started. I'm going to keep it up for the next couple weeks, just to make sure we get it a little ingrained, but I'm SO encouraged! 

I just cut her feed a little, did a mini-fast one night in the middle of the week (she got a 1/3 of what she normally gets), did OB routine for dinner 3 nights, and made sure to feed her a full 24 hours before training day. So she was definitely experiencing some more hunger than she's used to, and also having to work for that food a little more. She's lost a little weight, but I'm keeping an eye on it & feeding her a couple of bigger meals this week. But I will still mini-fast, and always make sure to feed 24 hours before training. 

I still think food will never be her major currency (like someone mentioned), but this has helped tremendously. And I also incorporate the tug-toy reward into training and corrections when warranted.


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