# Please help with Lily...I'm starting to doubt myself



## isabellak (Oct 26, 2010)

Hi all,
Lily has been eating some form of raw since she was about 8 weeks old (I started her on Primal). When she was younger (she's 16 month old now and 100 pounds), I tried her on some 'high-quality' kibble and she ended up with diarrhea and loose stool - I was told it was too rich for her. Last October, I switched her over to Prey Model Raw. Her poop got smaller and she transitioned fairly easily, although I'm still not feeding her required amount of organ. 

Since the switch, she's had 2 instances of Cannon Butt - one in November 2010 and one more recently in January. In January, her fecal came back saying she had Coccidia and she was treated and the stool improved - I never had her retested because the damn fecal tests are so expensive.

Well, 3 months later, she's back to loose, runny stool again. This time, I'm thinking it may have been a piece of chicken that I fed her that smelled a little off, but not sure. I called the vet, we put her on Flagyl for a week and I switched her to bone-heavy meals and there has been some, but not a lot of improvement - this is just not normal stool for her. I'm thinking it's the Coccidia again.

Anyhow, I took a sample in today and they'll be sending that out for testing. In the meantime, they've started with, "it's got to be the raw food," "we see this all the time in dogs who are fed raw." I ended up in an argument with the vet, saying, "I'm guessing you think she'd do better on Science Diet, right?"

Okay, so now I'm starting to doubt myself. Obviously, I want the best for Lily, otherwise I wouldn't be doing this, but I certainly don't want her sick every few months.

I need to make this work and my husband supports me and agrees that feeding raw is best. I wish I could find a supportive vet, but in the meantime is there anything I should be doing that I'm not doing? Probiotics??


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## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

Like dogs never get coccidia when they don't eat raw food. How come the test is so expensive? I can get a fecal done for about $20. 

Both of my dogs get some kind of parasite now and then - going to the dog park, wet weather, that stuff is all over the place. in the past year they have both had giardia and coccidia - while eating dry dog food.

i would say your first step is to wait for the fecal results - if it's a parasite, you have your answer. it's also possible she never got rid of it in January, and it's just now showing up again.

I hate arguing with vets. In my opinion, you work together with a vet, not take orders from them. Alot don't seem to understand that. hopefully, you can look around and find a better one.

As so many people have said to me - Don't panic! Take a deep breath, it will be ok. First things first, checking the fecal.

Oh, there is another thread on here about folks feeding their dogs food that is "off" - I'm very new so really can't give expert advice, but I would bet other people would tell you that's probably not the problem.


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## Ringoratter (Feb 13, 2011)

I am fairly new to feeding my dogs prey model raw myself so I probably don't need to give much advice. There is another post from yesterday I believe that is about the same thing so that might help you some.

One thing about the Coccidia though is that I was told all dogs have that parasite to begin with and it is only when they are stressed that it can then multiply rapidly and make the dog ill. Two of my dogs had a bad case of Coccidia right after we got them when they were 10 wks old. So I guess what I am saying is I don't think your dog could get it from eating raw meat.

I hope he gets over the diarrhea quickly and able to resume normal eating. I know it is distressing when they are sick or not themselves.


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## luvMyBRT (Mar 8, 2010)

It is my understanding (and I may be wrong) that dogs contract coccidia by ingesting infected soil or coming into contact with feces from an animal with coccidia. If this is true, then fresh, whole, raw, species appropriate foods would have nothing to do with Lily getting sick. Dang vets....always looking to blame raw.

I really doubt it was the smelly chicken. I know many here who have fed ripe meats with no ill effects to their dogs.

Keep us posted on what the results are. :smile:


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## werecatrising (Oct 15, 2010)

I'm sure most dogs get diarrhea now and then. I know mine do. Have you given Lily anything different at all? I know I sent Quinn into a major episode of cannon butt a couple of weeks ago by giving him a couple of milkbones. He was always a bit sensitive to grainy treats, but I think after being on raw he simply cannot handle that sort of thing. One thing that is prevalent in my area is giardia. I don't know how common it is where you are, but it might be something to test for if you haven't already. 

I am starting to see how blessed I am to work with vets who are supportive of my choice to feed raw. Both times I had to bring animals in and mentioned that I thought maybe it was something I had fed them I was told it was very unlikely their symptoms were due to being on raw. I can't imagine the added stress of having to argue with a doctor while being worried about my animal.


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## isabellak (Oct 26, 2010)

I'm hoping that the fecal test will include a test for giarda, as well. First, I do have a waterfall in the backyard and it's due for a cleaning:redface: Second, Lily LOVES to dig.

As far as the Coccida, the vet said that Lily could have gotten that from eating raw food. I said, but I thought that coccidia is transmitted through feces - well, she answered that the cow from the beef that I am feeding could have eaten contaminated feces and it is being spread that way - REALLY?? So, I explained that I freeze everything that I feed Lily - wouldn't that kill any kind of bacteria. She admitted that it would. I mean are they totally CLUELESS?? I've been on this forum long enough to know the answer to that one!


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## RachelsaurusRexU (Sep 4, 2010)

Raw feeding is apparently the perfect scapegoat for every dang illness under the sun  That's really annoying. 

Don't second guess yourself! I hope she feels better soon.


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## hcdoxies (Sep 22, 2010)

Coccidia is dormant in all dogs -- Mom's pass it to puppies through their milk. It can come about when there is stress. I wouldn't worry. I'm very surprised she had coccidia in January at 15 months old? Coccidia is almost always shown in puppies. The thing is - adults can "have it" but not show symptoms. That's the clincher.


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## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

hcdoxies said:


> Coccidia is dormant in all dogs -- Mom's pass it to puppies through their milk. It can come about when there is stress. I wouldn't worry. I'm very surprised she had coccidia in January at 15 months old? Coccidia is almost always shown in puppies. The thing is - adults can "have it" but not show symptoms. That's the clincher.


My small dog turned up with coccidia right after I adopted her and the vet said the same thing because I was freaking out about having parasites in my yard. I thought at the time the vet was just saying that so I wouldn't feel like I had a dirty yard, but I guess she might have been telling the truth.


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## luvMyBRT (Mar 8, 2010)

isabellak said:


> As far as the Coccida, the vet said that Lily could have gotten that from eating raw food. I said, but I thought that coccidia is transmitted through feces - well, she answered that the cow from the beef that I am feeding could have eaten contaminated feces and it is being spread that way - REALLY?? So, I explained that I freeze everything that I feed Lily - wouldn't that kill any kind of bacteria. She admitted that it would. I mean are they totally CLUELESS?? I've been on this forum long enough to know the answer to that one!


WOW. This vet doesn't have a clue. :twitch:
I would begin the search for a different vet (a good holistic vet if you can find one).

I wonder if it may have come from the water fall in your backyard?

And there was nothing new added diet wise? Too much organ meat or beef heart?


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## pandaparade (Dec 29, 2010)

Diarrhea: it had to be raw
Upset stomach: it had to be raw
Allergies: it had to be raw that caused it
Shiny bright white teeth the way a dog should have them: Ohhh you must of used the Hill's Science Diet Oral Care Adult Dog Food!


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## meggels (May 30, 2010)

Hope it's just a parasite, it happens! My boy has had giardia twice since owning him. When you are around multiple dogs, travelling places, it just happens.


If your vet is great in all other aspects then stick with him, but I would suggest finding a holistic based vet. I brought Murph in for an ear infection Friday and my vet asked what I was feeding him, and I told him what kibble, but that I'd be switching him over to raw in the next few days. I was over the moon when the vet said "Great, that will be great for him. I wish I could get more of my clients to feed raw"!!!!!


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## Northwoods10 (Nov 22, 2010)

I will ask your vet for a print out on Coccidia and ask her to highlight where it specifically says dogs can get it from raw meat. I'm guessing she won't be able to come up with it. 

I'd suggest getting the fecal done, and going from there. I think that vets like to "scare" us with what would be easily believed by somebody not so educated on raw....its an easy thing to blame. And somebody who didn't know much about the diet and different things that can occur, might get scared back into feeding crap again. For whatever reason, we all know that most traditional vets do not support the diet and will jump to conclusions without first researching the situation more themselves. 

Your vet works for you, ask her to provide some proof that what you are feeding could be the culprit. Maybe from here on out she will have a little more respect for your decisions and your knowledge. :wink:

Best of luck, I hope you can figure something out with Lily. As for probiotics....I would suggest feeding them if she is put on an antibiotic for any length of time.


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## isabellak (Oct 26, 2010)

Thanks everyone. I get the results back on Tuesday and will post them here. It saddens me that I may need to be looking for a new vet, I've used this one for 15 years, but I will not tolerate being challenged like this every time I bring Lily in for something. I'll start looking around for a holistic vet.


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## pandaparade (Dec 29, 2010)

Check this out to search for a holistic vet AHVMA - Find Member Vets in your area - Holistic, Alternative, Complementary Veterinarians


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## RaisingWolves (Mar 19, 2011)

pandaparade said:


> Diarrhea: it had to be raw
> Upset stomach: it had to be raw
> Allergies: it had to be raw that caused it
> Shiny bright white teeth the way a dog should have them: Ohhh you must of used the Hill's Science Diet Oral Care Adult Dog Food!


This is the sad truth.:frown:



pandaparade said:


> Check this out to search for a holistic vet AHVMA - Find Member Vets in your area - Holistic, Alternative, Complementary Veterinarians


Thanks for posting this! I found a vet on this list I'm going to try.:happy:
I do not talk to my current vet about nutrition. I have to argue why I will not spay my x-large breed @ 6 months old.


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## isabellak (Oct 26, 2010)

Just made an appointment with a holistic vet who supports and recommends raw fed diets. We'll see how that goes!


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## luvMyBRT (Mar 8, 2010)

isabellak said:


> Just made an appointment with a holistic vet who supports and recommends raw fed diets. We'll see how that goes!


Awesome news! Let us know how it goes. 
When we move my number one priority for my dogs is to find a holistic vet who supports raw.


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## KittyKat (Feb 11, 2011)

pandaparade said:


> Check this out to search for a holistic vet AHVMA - Find Member Vets in your area - Holistic, Alternative, Complementary Veterinarians


Hmm, there`s one in my area... but their website is under construction.

I`m not ready to leave my vet yet though. We just don`t talk about nutrition, she`s great in every other way though...


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## isabellak (Oct 26, 2010)

I got Lily's fecal results back. Everything was negative - giardia, coccidia. She had diarrhea again today and she seemed very lethargic yesterday and today - at least that's how it seemed. Of course the vet it telling me it's the food. I guess I need to get her eating chicken backs again and wait to see what the new vet says on Thursday.

Is there anything else I should be trying??


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## Northwoods10 (Nov 22, 2010)

Have you taken a temp on her? How do her gums look? (Should be nice & pink)

Any other symptoms other than the diarrhea & lethargy?


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## isabellak (Oct 26, 2010)

She seemed more herself this evening, with energy enough to run around the park. I don't have a thermometer to take her temp, but her gums look good. I haven't seen a bowel movement yet this evening, but this morning it was liquid, however, no urgency to go. 

Right now there appears to be no other symptoms but the liquid diarrhea or soft stool/mucus (no blood) for the last 3 weeks. There was no major change to her diet. The only thing I can recall is giving her the really smelly chicken around the same time the diarrhea started and I was starting to increase her daily liver amount, but as soon as I saw the diarrhea, I stopped the liver completely.

I did put her on flagyl for a few days, which has helped in the past, but not this time.


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## Northwoods10 (Nov 22, 2010)

Hmmmm this is a tough one!!

What do you have her eating right now?


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## isabellak (Oct 26, 2010)

Northwoods, thanks so much for trying to sort this out with me. The fact is, Lily has always had a sensitive stomach and she gets stressed easily. For instance, one day we decided to test leaving her out of her crate when we left the house - she had perfectly normal stool that morning. When we returned, 1-1/2 hours later, she had had cannon butt all over the house - not once, but a dozen times - we couldn't get the diarrhea under control after that and had a fecal done. That was when she tested positive for coccidia. 

I don't think that there is anything stressing her now, but who knows. Last night she had a fairly normal stool, I thought she was improving, this morning it was liquid. She did see my husband leaving for work early this morning, he's gone for a week at a time - maybe that stressed her??? 

Lily eats 2x per day. Her morning meal is boneless (1 pound) - pork, beef, beef heart, canned salmon/sardines. Her evening meal is always a chicken quarter (1 pound). I was giving her about a 1/2 oz of liver and progressing to 1 oz when this happened.

She hates beef, so I will sometimes melt a tsp of butter and stir it into the beef with a sprinkle of garlic powder.

She gets about 6 small slices of hot dog a day as a snack, along with one or two pieces of beef jerky. I will occasionally give her a handful of cat snacks when I'm giving them to the cats.

That's pretty much everything, and that has been our feeding routine for months with excellent results.

I'll be feeding her chicken backs tomorrow morning and evening and see how that works.

Thanks again.


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## Angelwing (Feb 20, 2011)

Is she still lethargic?


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## isabellak (Oct 26, 2010)

No, she was running around this evening and seems to be behaving normally.


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## luvMyBRT (Mar 8, 2010)

Have you tried fasting her for 24 hours to let her stomach have a rest/recoup? Don't know if that would help, but it might be worth a try. After the 24 hour fast, I would feed nothing but bone in chicken (smaller amounts than normal) for a few days to see if that helps.

Poor Lily...poor you! I hope she's better soon! :smile:


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## Angelwing (Feb 20, 2011)

isabellak said:


> No, she was running around this evening and seems to be behaving normally.


That's good! It's usually a bad sign if they stay lethargic for 2+ days so I'm glad she's acting normal. I second fasting her for 24 hours and then bone in chicken after that.


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## Northwoods10 (Nov 22, 2010)

luvMyBRT said:


> Have you tried fasting her for 24 hours to let her stomach have a rest/recoup? Don't know if that would help, but it might be worth a try. After the 24 hour fast, I would feed nothing but bone in chicken (smaller amounts than normal) for a few days to see if that helps.
> 
> Poor Lily...poor you! I hope she's better soon! :smile:


This!

Start from the beginning again and see if you can get things sorted out. 

Does she have a fairly regular routine everyday?


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## isabellak (Oct 26, 2010)

Oh my gosh yes she has a routine, LOL. She gets totally perplexed if it changes in the slightest. I did fast her this morning. Your suggestion about starting from scratch feels like the right thing to do now that I know there are not parasites/bacteria issues. I fastest her this morning and will start her on chicken backs (fat and organs removed) for a few days and then intro quarters again. I'm feeling much better about this today, thanks to everyone here!


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## Northwoods10 (Nov 22, 2010)

isabellak said:


> Oh my gosh yes she has a routine, LOL. She gets totally perplexed if it changes in the slightest. I did fast her this morning. Your suggestion about starting from scratch feels like the right thing to do now that I know there are not parasites/bacteria issues. I fastest her this morning and will start her on chicken backs (fat and organs removed) for a few days and then intro quarters again. I'm feeling much better about this today, thanks to everyone here!


Just a minor bump in the road, it happens!


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## isabellak (Oct 26, 2010)

*My Vet visit*

Just an update on my vet visit. He's a doctor of veterinary medicine, but also believes in a holistic, homeopathic approach. I can't tell you how wonderful it was to explain my diet for Lily and have him completely understand and concur that this was a healthy way of eating for her. He talked about the great disservice we did to our canine companions 100 years ago when we decided to 'improve' their diets with processed dog food. 

We discussed his concerns about over vaccinating - Lily was due for her annuals. She received her 3 year rabies and that was it. I have to admit that I have some trepidation about relying on homeopathic treatments for heartworm prevention, etc, but I'm much happier knowing that I'm not forcing her to ingest poison. Just curious if anyone here has an opinion on this?

I'm also happy to say that Lily's diarrhea has stopped and she is back to having normal stool. Next time this happens, I hope I can trust my instincts and follow what I've learned here to help her through that.

Thanks again everyone.


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## Northwoods10 (Nov 22, 2010)

That is GREAT news!!! I'm so happy she is doing well and you've found a vet you can relate to and trust!!! 

As for limited vaccines, we are following that pathway as well. I'm still learning about it but I'm hoping to do Titers for vaccines in the future. I have dropped a few vaccines since learning about "limited' ways but I still am looking into dropping a few more. 

IMO, raw feeding is great....but part of the whole grand scheme of things is taking a look at EVERYTHING that goes into their bodies, vaccines included. 

Best of luck to you and I hope Lily continues to thrive!


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## MollyWoppy (Mar 19, 2010)

I don't know, I think I'd be a touch nervous about homeopathic remedies for heartworm as well. Although, I guess it could depend on where you live. I hate the poisons in the vaccinations and won't give standard flea treatments, but Heartworm, well, I'm really careful about that.
I'm in two minds though, I mean, if his remedies don't work, then he runs the risk of being sued, so maybe he does have a tried and true natural heartworm solution. I really hope he does.
Do you know what he recommends/uses? I'd be interested to hear what other people think.....

I really hope you can get Lily sorted out as well. It is so frustrating when you can't put your finger on what exactly is wrong. Good luck, I think you've been given some good advice.


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## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

MollyWoppy said:


> I don't know, I think I'd be a touch nervous about homeopathic remedies for heartworm as well. Although, I guess it could depend on where you live. I hate the poisons in the vaccinations and won't give standard flea treatments, but Heartworm, well, I'm really careful about that.
> I'm in two minds though, I mean, if his remedies don't work, then he runs the risk of being sued, so maybe he does have a tried and true natural heartworm solution. I really hope he does.
> Do you know what he recommends/uses? I'd be interested to hear what other people think.....
> 
> I really hope you can get Lily sorted out as well. It is so frustrating when you can't put your finger on what exactly is wrong. Good luck, I think you've been given some good advice.


Me too. I would be freaked out at every mosquito I saw, if they weren't on something proven to stop it, even if it's a chemical


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## Northwoods10 (Nov 22, 2010)

Wanted to add that I do still give my dogs traditional heartworm preventatives: Heartgard.

I haven't done much research in this area, but that is next on my list. First was getting rid of Frontline. 

What methods does he suggest for warding off heartworm? The mosquitoes are horrid up here in the summer and I would be soooo worried about it. But then again...what is the Heartgard doing to them that we don't know about.


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## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

I actually never give my dogs flea/tick stuff. I think that stuff can truly be dangerous. But haven't seen any issues with Heartguard in umpteen years of giving it. I don't give it in winter, though.


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## isabellak (Oct 26, 2010)

Besides the Rabies vaccine, he did a ADx heartworm antigen and an ADx Distemper/Parvo Vaccine Titer. I left with a vial of liquid that I am to give her once daily for 7 days. I will get specifics on what that mixture includes and post it tomorrow, but that is the heartworm treatment.


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## RaisingWolves (Mar 19, 2011)

I'm so glad to read Lily's back to normal! Your vet sounds like a keeper! You are so lucky! I'm switching to a holistic vet for our next check-up.


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## isabellak (Oct 26, 2010)

Well, after our discussion last night, I began doing some research on vaccination. I found this very helpful site and thought I would share. So far I can say that I am happy with the distemper/parvo approach the vet took and will continue looking into the heartworm option - I still have concerns, but it sounds like if I do a heartworm antigen test 2x per year, I can avoid the medication AND/OR I could give 1/4 dose of heartworm meds and still protect her effectively (based on the Safeheart study that is mentioned). I live in So. Florida so mosquitos are an issue for us year-round.

Truth4Dogs


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## bumblegoat (May 12, 2010)

Homeopathy is pseudo science. It's just bogus. Please don't waste your money on anything homeopathic. Honestly, I wouldn't even want to go to a vet who recommends homeopathy.

Do you know what homeopathy is about?


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## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

Holy cow!!! I just looked it up. Maybe holistic would be better. i kinda thought they were the same thing.


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## MollyWoppy (Mar 19, 2010)

This heartworm stuff is something you can't really mess with. I live in SW FL and last year (I think, it could have been the year before) a human, about 40miles from us contracted heartworm. Poor bastard.


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## isabellak (Oct 26, 2010)

Thanks, Molly. I've decided to keep her on Heartguard. It's just not worth the risk.


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## DeltaNDoc (Nov 14, 2010)

Wow, pretty harsh about homeopathy. It's not really pseudo science. But to each their own. I am going to do black walnut tincture for our heartworm preventative this year. Do you know if that is what you were given? Sounds like an awesome vet. My adults only receive rabies and my puppies only parvo/distemper. Yes, they are still alive. I might be a little more concerned with heartworm where you live, but I am not too worried about it here... as long as I am taking precautions.


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## bumblegoat (May 12, 2010)

DeltaNDoc said:


> Wow, pretty harsh about homeopathy. It's not really pseudo science. But to each their own.


Really, it's not harsh at all. 

From Wikipedia:
"Homeopathy is a form of alternative medicine in which practitioners treat patients using highly diluted preparations that are believed to cause healthy people to exhibit symptoms that are similar to those exhibited by the patient. The collective weight of scientific evidence has found homeopathy to be no more effective than a placebo."
Homeopathy - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

So, according to homeopathy, caffeine diluted to the point of there being no caffeine left at all, is supposed to work as a sleeping pill. I honestly can't see how anyone who knows what homeopathy is about can say that it's not just bullsh*t. 

James Randi explains how incredibly stupid homeopathy:
YouTube - James Randi explains homeopathy

Here is a hilarious video:
YouTube - That Mitchell and Webb Look: Homeopathic A&E


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## RaisingWolves (Mar 19, 2011)

Are the homeopathic remedies a holistic vet administers prior to and after vaccination a waste of money?


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