# Would YOU get offended?



## meggels (May 30, 2010)

I have a few friends that don't agree with french bulldog breedings because they are a very man-made breed. They don't like that they are impregnated using AI, or born during c-section, all the health issues with frenchies, etc.

I get their point, and there are problems with frenchies that I have also, but I do love them and consider them probably my favorite breed, if not, one of the top three for sure. I can respect their point and stance, but they have told me SEVERAL times their views on the breed, and basically have gone as far to say that frenchies are a breed that probably shouldn't exist and we should have let nature run it's course. 

They accuse me of being overly sensitive, and agree that Murph has a great personality, but it doesn't make up for all the things the breed as a whole has going wrong with them, and they don't see why I'm getting offended because they are talking about the breed, not my own dog. Um, well, my dog IS the breed you are talking about, so yeah, I'm going to be offended by what you are saying, esp when you say it over and over again and don't exactly use much tact. 

Am I being over sensitive here? I can respect someone not agreeing with me but you don't have to tell me several times and tell me that my breed basically should be extinct because of their health problems. I don't think it's me being "over sensitive" when you are basically trashing my favorite breed.


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## SilverBeat (Jan 16, 2011)

I think there's an underlying issue here. Otherwise this conversation wouldn't have come up multiple times. You like the breed, they don't, it would have been established and moved on from. 

I don't think you're being overly sensitive. I love smooth-coat collies and a coworker of mine HAS one and always talks about how much she hates him/the breed, how ugly or creepy it is. I have offered, seriously, to take him [his name is Dragon, seriously who could not love that?!] multiple times, and every time I do the conversations tapers off with her saying, "yeah but... this or that lame excuse." I don't know what her reasoning for wanting to keep him is, since she seems to hate everything about this dog--he has Separation Anxiety and is rarely exercised. And yet every time she's offered a solution to her problem, she declines.. I'm still trying to figure her out.

I think you should take a step back and look at what brings up these conversations, maybe then you'll find out why this seems to be such a big issue for you guys.


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## meggels (May 30, 2010)

Usually it's when I'm talking about something related to him. 

Like last night with the whole peeing on the bed issue, and I made a comment about how frenchies can be hard to housetrain. And then she went off into her stance on it. 

Or before when I said how they are bred with AI and c-section.


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## meggels (May 30, 2010)

Btw, that's very bizarre that she hates the breed yet has one lol. I vote you should get him 


I dunno, I'm of the persuasion that just because you have an opinion, you don't need to state it. And if it's to a friend, perhaps consider if it's going to actually be worthwhile or useful to state it. I really believe in tact and courtesy when speaking with people.


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## SilverBeat (Jan 16, 2011)

meggels said:


> Usually it's when I'm talking about something related to him.
> 
> Like last night with the whole peeing on the bed issue, and I made a comment about how frenchies can be hard to housetrain. And then she went off into her stance on it.
> 
> Or before when I said how they are bred with AI and c-section.





meggels said:


> *I dunno, I'm of the persuasion that just because you have an opinion, you don't need to state it. And if it's to a friend, perhaps consider if it's going to actually be worthwhile or useful to state it. I really believe in tact and courtesy when speaking with people.*


This this this a thousand times. I don't know what your friend hopes to accomplish, other than making you angry, when she brings this up then. Maybe you should just ask her? It's not like you're going to get rid of Murph just because she disapproves of his/his breed's existence. Or at all. Ever. Because who couldn't love that little face.



meggels said:


> Btw, that's very bizarre that she hates the breed yet has one lol. I vote you should get him


 You have no idea how much I want him. The dog is technically hers but she moved out of her mom's house recently and only sees her/the dog a few times a week. Her favorite breed is APBTs. Her mom does not care for Dragon either.


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## Scarlett_O' (May 19, 2011)

I would get offended because of how she saying it, yes!!

However, I do *kind of* understand how she feels...Im torn about it as well, as you know my family consists of 2 Frenchies.....3 if you end up sending your bratty boy to me!:tongue1: But I understand the "if they cant breed/birth naturally...." but at the same time I love the breed.


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## meggels (May 30, 2010)

I don't think there's any reasoning with her.

I understand saying your stance once...but multiple times? And you don't think I should take it personal when you are saying that frenchies shouldn't exist? I don't get it. She loves to debate though. That is her reasoning apparently. But I don't see why you would keep saying such things to someone who is a "friend", what you really get out of it, and if it's even worth it?


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## meggels (May 30, 2010)

That's exactly how I feel Abi.

I totally get the issues surrounding the breed, and I can't say I fully agree with it on a moral/ethical level, but they HAVE stolen my heart.

But as a friend, I don't need you to tell me your opinion on them every time I bring up something about the breed that you don't agree with. Sometimes, people just need to smile, nod, and shut up  And to say I'm being oversensitive because you ARE basically bashing my breed that I love....who the hell wants to sit there and hear someone talk bad about something they love? Whether it's frenchies, chinese food, the sport they take part in....etc? Who the heck would be like "okay this is fun! go ahead and trash what I love!"


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## Scarlett_O' (May 19, 2011)

meggels said:


> That's exactly how I feel Abi.
> 
> I totally get the issues surrounding the breed, and I can't say I fully agree with it on a moral/ethical level, but they HAVE stolen my heart.
> 
> But as a friend, I don't need you to tell me your opinion on them every time I bring up something about the breed that you don't agree with. Sometimes, people just need to smile, nod, and shut up  And to say I'm being oversensitive because you ARE basically bashing my breed that I love....who the hell wants to sit there and hear someone talk bad about something they love? Whether it's frenchies, chinese food, the sport they take part in....etc? Who the heck would be like "okay this is fun! go ahead and trash what I love!"


TOTALLY agree!!

That is just like EVVVVVVERY one asking me "OH WOW, you have **2!!** Border Collies...do you ever get any sleep?!?!?!!? They are SOOO hyper!! How can you stand having 2?!?!?!" UGH it gets annoying! I laugh at them and, if he is with me point at, or tell them about, my 5 month old sleeping/standing/sitting at my feet!:wink:


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## Liz (Sep 27, 2010)

I believe she is being tactless. She obviously wants you to believe what she believes. I understand her stance but once said is enough between friends. On the other hand I would avoid telling her anything negative aboutt he breed, ever. Yes the friendship won't be 100% open but you won't be continually insulted and she won't be trying to change your mind. If her friendship is valuable to you that's where I would start. Hopefully that would be enough. If not bodly telling her that you must agreed to disagree on this issue might be the next step. Also remind her that he is you pup and you do love him and as a friend would appreciate her respect of that relationship. JMHO


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## SilverBeat (Jan 16, 2011)

Liz said:


> On the other hand I would avoid telling her anything negative aboutt he breed, ever. Yes the friendship won't be 100% open but you won't be continually insulted and she won't be trying to change your mind.


I agree, this has worked for me in the past. A friend of mine believes in ~*Caesar's Way*~ which I just think is out and out stupid. So I have just stopped bringing up training/pointing out problems I'm having or things I'm working on with Wallaby. We haven't had a huge issue since then... I think she understands it is just too much of a sore subject. Hopefully your friend will take the hint.


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## Scarlett_O' (May 19, 2011)

SilverBeat said:


> I agree, this has worked for me in the past. A friend of mine believes in ~*Caesar's Way*~ which I just think is out and out stupid. So I have just stopped bringing up training/pointing out problems I'm having or things I'm working on with Wallaby. We haven't had a huge issue since then... I think she understands it is just too much of a sore subject. Hopefully your friend will take the hint.


Yep same here! I also have a friend(same friend who believes in "~*Caesar's Way*~")who believes that dogs are omnivores...and unless someone else brings the subject up, or she out and out ASKS me I just dont bring my raw feeding up....although I will roll my eyes, "pfft" or else wise voice my opinion when she says something about it!:wink:


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## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

So French bulldogs can't have babies naturally? Why not, just out curiosity?

I have a friend who has one that just wandered up on her doorstep. I would think if someone went to all the trouble to do AI to get him, it sure is nuts to dump him off out in the country.


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## CorgiPaws (Mar 31, 2009)

I'll be totally and brutally honest. Your friend sucks. LOL
While I totally and entirely understand and agree with what she is saying... I think that between friends, if it's a sore subject, she needs to just learn to agree to disagree and move on. Boxers have a higher c-section rate than a lot of other breeds, but if someone were to over and over tell me that Annie, my heart dog, pretty much shouldn't exist, I honestly don't think the friendship would last. You're not being overly sensitive. Facts aside, Murph is a huge part of your life, and SHE is the one being under-sensitive to how you feel about the breed, Murphy especially. I don't know how she can claim to not be talking about your dog when she's talking about the entire breed which Murphy is obviously a part of.


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

there are plenty of dogs who are artificially inseminated....plenty of dogs who have to be delivered by c-section....frenchies aren't the only ones...

why is she picking on frenchies. they are not the only dogs who have to have help in order to be bred.

so what. big deal. 

not a friend. at least not a good friend. not even nice. 

frenchies are a very cool breed. lots of breeds are very cool breeds.

if a woman needed help with getting preggers and needed a c section, would she have something to say about that, too?


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## Liz (Sep 27, 2010)

I think sometimes we expect too much from people. I do have a couple of excellent friends who I can honestly say love me even though they reeeaaaallly know me. They respect my thoughts and I theirs. That said, I believe they are special people and they come along only every so often. Most of our friends have limits and we may have to have relationship with in those limits. I mostly deal with that kind of thing in regards to my religious beliefs, homeschooling and raw feeding although now vaccinations are creeping up now and again. If you enjoy spending time with them, then you have to adapt to what they can accept - just don't allow yourself to be disprespected int he name of friendship.


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

Liz said:


> I think sometimes we expect too much from people. I do have a couple of excellent friends who I can honestly say love me even though they reeeaaaallly know me. They respect my thoughts and I theirs. That said, I believe they are special people and they come along only every so often. Most of our friends have limits and we may have to have relationship with in those limits. I mostly deal with that kind of thing in regards to my religious beliefs, homeschooling and raw feeding although now vaccinations are creeping up now and again. If you enjoy spending time with them, then you have to adapt to what they can accept - just don't allow yourself to be disprespected int he name of friendship.


that was very well said....and then i think about the other side, for intelligent people try to see both sides....

a friend knows there are lines we all have that we've drawn in the sand and said friend generally doesn't step over because they are your friend.

that is part of my definition of a friend.....liz, you and i are friends. i vaccinate more than you do. we could have a great debate and we would still come out of it as friends....

religious beliefs....what great fun i should think it would be for you and i to discuss our beliefs.

the reason that friends can do this is because they do not cross the line drawn in the sand by the other and they respect where the line is because they've taken the time to find out the triggers and not push them.

if meggels has a sensitivity that has been tromped on once too many and has said something, then her friend should kind of back off. if the friend does not back off, then for me, that friend is not being a friend......

and yes....when we let someone into our inner circle, no matter how small a thing might be to someone else, it could be huge to us as individuals....which makes us unique...but needs to be respected and maybe not talked about.

our dogs mean quite a bit to us. i would no more allow something to be said about my pug....or my corgi ditch dog mix than i would about my friends or my husband who is at the top of my pyramid....and keep poking at the things i hold dear, and that person is out of my life....because they know these are things i hold dear....whether it's a breed of dog or how i put mayo on my sandwich.

i will also say that as i get older, i no longer have the tolerance i used to have for people who step on the line, go over the line or just don't plain care about the line.


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## doggiedad (Jan 23, 2011)

i say you're being overly sensitive. whatever they think
about Frenchies it's their opinon. everybody isn't going to
like everything about you or agree with you about things,
but so what. the next time your friends want to talk down
about the Frenchies contact me. i'll muzzle them (your friends)
for you. i might give them a harsh verbal correction.


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## Liz (Sep 27, 2010)

I have a bark collar you might try - one zap and she should start letting it go. LOL (JK)anda:


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## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

I am no longer friends with my best friend of 20 years, who was like a sister to me for so long, because she made me feel so horrible all the time - guilty and defensive, mostly not voicing my opinion and very often not telling her when I was spending time with other friends or family. I am still heartbroken over it almost a year later but I am not sorry i broke off the friendship because it was eating me alive.

When I got my Doberman, she told me she hates all Dobermans because of something that happened in her childhood but she wouldn't tell me what it was. She was so sorry I chose to get a dog she felt uncomfortable around and felt it was an insult to her. So she met my Doberman and he was of course a wonderful dog and I tried to get her to admit she was wrong and she said no she still feels the same way, my Doberman isn't even like a real Doberman to her because he's not black and his ears flop. She doesn't count defective Dobermans as real ones and even if she did, she thinks he could "turn" any minute.


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## doggiedad (Jan 23, 2011)

your friends that are bashing the Frenchies what
breed of dogs do they have???


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## Scarlett_O' (May 19, 2011)

Liz said:


> I have a bark collar you might try - one zap and she should start letting it go. LOL (JK)anda:


OH OH OH...can I have it?!? Im closer!!LOL :lol:


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## meggels (May 30, 2010)

PuppyPaws said:


> I'll be totally and brutally honest. Your friend sucks. LOL
> While I totally and entirely understand and agree with what she is saying... I think that between friends, if it's a sore subject, she needs to just learn to agree to disagree and move on. Boxers have a higher c-section rate than a lot of other breeds, but if someone were to over and over tell me that Annie, my heart dog, pretty much shouldn't exist, I honestly don't think the friendship would last. You're not being overly sensitive. Facts aside, Murph is a huge part of your life, and SHE is the one being under-sensitive to how you feel about the breed, Murphy especially. I don't know how she can claim to not be talking about your dog when she's talking about the entire breed which Murphy is obviously a part of.



Thank you. <3


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## meggels (May 30, 2010)

magicre said:


> there are plenty of dogs who are artificially inseminated....plenty of dogs who have to be delivered by c-section....frenchies aren't the only ones...
> 
> why is she picking on frenchies. they are not the only dogs who have to have help in order to be bred.
> 
> ...



She probably would lol 


She picks on them when I bring them up.

Like, with me telling her about murph peeing on the bed and how frenchies can be hard to house train. it literally went into "Why are these dogs bred? nature should have taken care of it. they are hard to hosue train, they can't breed on their own, health problems..." blah blah blah.


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## meggels (May 30, 2010)

xellil said:


> So French bulldogs can't have babies naturally? Why not, just out curiosity?
> 
> I have a friend who has one that just wandered up on her doorstep. I would think if someone went to all the trouble to do AI to get him, it sure is nuts to dump him off out in the country.



I'm not sure why they don't breed naturally. I heard it's because their hindquarters aren't strong enough but I've seen many males mount a female and begin to mate. I think AI is just easier and less of a hassle. They are also winded easily LOL. Sex can be tiring  

And they get c-sections because of their skull size in comparison to the mothers birth canal, it can pose problems. So again, the c-section just makes it easier.


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## meggels (May 30, 2010)

magicre said:


> that was very well said....and then i think about the other side, for intelligent people try to see both sides....
> 
> a friend knows there are lines we all have that we've drawn in the sand and said friend generally doesn't step over because they are your friend.
> 
> ...



that's very well said. 

I can respect someones stance. They don't have to agree with me. But why bash something that I love? What do you get out of that? Is it worth what you get out of it to do it to a friend??? To me, it's not. Some people though, cause I know a few, really just like to throw their opinion around with no regards to how it might make some people feel.


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## meggels (May 30, 2010)

doggiedad said:


> your friends that are bashing the Frenchies what
> breed of dogs do they have???


She doesn't, she has a horse.

But I believe the dogs she tends to prefer are border collies.


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## meggels (May 30, 2010)

I think the best example of some peoples lack of sensitivity is a situation that happened a few months ago. 

The same friend posted this article on her FB wall:

Thousands Turn Out For Empire State Building's Annual No-Hassle Suicide Day | The Onion - America's Finest News Source



Now, I lost my father 7 months ago to suicide.

I get that the Onion is supposed to be funny, but I posted a comment on her FB link about how I thought the article was pretty awful. Another friend who knows how my father died said "I find the article hilarious". It set me off. And then several other mutual friends joined in and said I was being over-sensitive and just trying to make everyone feel bad for me. Seriously????


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## Scarlett_O' (May 19, 2011)

meggels said:


> *she has a horse.
> 
> But I believe the dogs she tends to prefer are border collies.*


OH GAWD...your talking about me!:tongue:


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

meggels said:


> She probably would lol
> 
> 
> She picks on them when I bring them up.
> ...


i know bubba is a pug. the first thing he did was pee on my bed. big deal. it's part of the package.


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

meggels said:


> I think the best example of some peoples lack of sensitivity is a situation that happened a few months ago.
> 
> The same friend posted this article on her FB wall:
> 
> ...


OMG. you have got to be kidding. these are not your friends. suicide is off limits. and i am sorry for your loss. this is a hard one.


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## DoglovingSenior (Jun 26, 2011)

meggels said:


> That's exactly how I feel Abi.
> .
> 
> But as a friend, I don't need you to tell me your opinion on them every time I bring up something here and hear someone talk bad about something they love?
> ...


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## mischiefgrrl (Oct 28, 2010)

It's not really a question of if you "should" get offended - because you are offended no matter what the intentions are. You should speak up and let her know that those comments hurt and that she needs to lay off. If she gets upset, then it might be time for a break from that friendship. 

I say stupid things all of the time and I almost always have an opinion. I've had friends who let me know when they've been offended by something I honestly never meant to offend them with. I always apologize and make note to not do/say that again. I've also told those friends that I was very glad they told me rather than just letting it fester and holding a grudge. It means a lot to a friendship if you are willing to speak up in order to save it.


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## meggels (May 30, 2010)

magicre said:


> OMG. you have got to be kidding. these are not your friends. suicide is off limits. and i am sorry for your loss. this is a hard one.


I don't think I've ever been quite as angry as I was during that fight. With several of them telling me to not take it personal and that I just shouldn't have commented on it or read it if I knew it was going to upset me. I think I was literally fuming with smoke coming out of my ears.


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## MollyWoppy (Mar 19, 2010)

meggels said:


> I don't think I've ever been quite as angry as I was during that fight. With several of them telling me to not take it personal and that I just shouldn't have commented on it or read it if I knew it was going to upset me. I think I was literally fuming with smoke coming out of my ears.


I'm so sorry they are so insensitive. (thats the nicest word I could think of). They obviously have had charmed lives with no concept of how absolutely devastating it is to lose a parent at a young age. And, suicide with all the raw feelings that go with it. 
Try to put it down to ignorance. 
One day they will lose someone who is part of their soul and they will understand and on that day I hope they have the grace to apologise.
(hugs to you).


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## chowder (Sep 7, 2008)

Personally, I would relieve myself of any of those friends that were upsetting me so much. I've been around a long time and found out that friends come and go, whether you mean for it to happen or not. You move, relocate, grow up, things change. Suddenly you have a whole new set of friends and never even miss the old ones. 

Don't waste any precious minutes on people who make you unhappy. If someone doesn't like my kids or my dogs, I find new people to be with that do like them. There are a whole lot of people in this world just waiting to be met.


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## MollyWoppy (Mar 19, 2010)

chowder said:


> Personally, I would relieve myself of any of those friends that were upsetting me so much. I've been around a long time and found out that friends come and go, whether you mean for it to happen or not. You move, relocate, grow up, things change. Suddenly you have a whole new set of friends and never even miss the old ones.
> 
> Don't waste any precious minutes on people who make you unhappy. If someone doesn't like my kids or my dogs, I find new people to be with that do like them. There are a whole lot of people in this world just waiting to be met.


AMEN, sister.


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## KittyKat (Feb 11, 2011)

While I agree that I have concerns about any dog that can't give birth naturally(or is riddled with health problems), and wish people would work towards creating a breed that's capable of giving birth naturally (or getting pregnant... and a breed that doesn't have so many health issues) - I wouldn't harp on anyone who had a dog from that breed.


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## catahoulamom (Sep 23, 2010)

Those "friends" seem to get a kick out of your reaction (getting your feelings hurt). It is disgusting that they would be that insensitive about suicide given what you went through with your father. Sounds like it's time to write these people off. And I do disagree with the breeding practices of Frenchies, but I would NEVER insult the breed! I LOVE them! I mean, how can you say this little dude shouldn't exist?!


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## Caty M (Aug 13, 2010)

There are health problems with most every breed, unfortunately. I do think that brachy breeds have it worst. I'd love it if breeders would shift the focus away from the extreme shape and focus more on a smaller head, healthier respiratory system. But to say that they shouldn't be bred altogether?.. It would be sad to lose one of our dog breeds. Improvement, not eradication! :wink:

And hard to housetrain?.. that's not exclusive to frenchies. Italian greyhounds aren't exactly easy, either!


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

chowder said:


> Personally, I would relieve myself of any of those friends that were upsetting me so much. I've been around a long time and found out that friends come and go, whether you mean for it to happen or not. You move, relocate, grow up, things change. Suddenly you have a whole new set of friends and never even miss the old ones.
> 
> Don't waste any precious minutes on people who make you unhappy. If someone doesn't like my kids or my dogs, I find new people to be with that do like them. There are a whole lot of people in this world just waiting to be met.


i'd rather have no friends.....than these kind....well said, chowder.


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

KittyKat said:


> While I agree that I have concerns about any dog that can't give birth naturally(or is riddled with health problems), and wish people would work towards creating a breed that's capable of giving birth naturally (or getting pregnant... and a breed that doesn't have so many health issues) - I wouldn't harp on anyone who had a dog from that breed.


what concerns do you have...?
i'm not asking to attack you in any way. i'm genuinely curious..

some dogs are built a certain way and don't fit through the vagina...english bulldogs, i believe are delivered by c section...are they not? and plenty of other breeds that are not a 'fad' or far out breed have the same issue....

personally, i'm glad that c sections are performed...it means more live births and fewer dead mommies....


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## KittyKat (Feb 11, 2011)

magicre said:


> what concerns do you have...?
> i'm not asking to attack you in any way. i'm genuinely curious..
> 
> Some dogs are built a certain way and don't fit through the vagina...english bulldogs, i believe are delivered by c section...are they not? and plenty of other breeds that are not a 'fad' or far out breed have the same issue....
> ...


Yes, English Bulldogs are delivered like that (they used to be able to give birth naturally but people kept breeding the dogs with the biggest heads, which means they have to use a C-section now), I also think that Dogue de Bordeaux can occasionally have issues due to head size of puppies. 

My concern is this: If a dog is not capable of giving birth naturally, they are susceptible to dying during birth, and their puppies are susceptible to dying as well. For instance, if a dog that requires a C-section goes into labour early while no one is around (or they can't get to a vet in time), the puppies can become stuck and suffocate because the dog is not able to give birth naturally, and then the mother is at risk of dying also. 

I'm glad they preform C-sections as well, but it's my opinion that they *shouldn't* be required for a breed to exist. I don't think these sorts of breeds should exist in their current state because of this... it's for our own selfish reasons that they are around and they are at risk of dying because of this. 

I think Frenchies are adorable and sweet, same with bulldogs... but it isn't reasonable to perpetuate a breed that isn't able to actually.... breed and give birth naturally... in this case their own puppies are liable to kill them. With some careful breeding it should be possible to take a breed that and remove these health issues.... they wouldn't be exactly the same, but they would be healthier, stronger... better.

I'm also boggled at how these breeds even come to be. Mom gets pregnant, babies aren't coming out... rush them to a vet to get them out... "Hmm, well.... they ARE cute.... lets just bypass the whole 'unable to give birth' problem shall we?". 

It just doesn't sit right with me. Then again my feelings are the same for other breeds which have huge health issues... Cavalier King Charles Spaniel for example (careful breeding should alleviate this health problem that was brought on by in-breeding)... same goes for brachycephalic breeds... who suffer health problems because we humans have a thing for squished in faces.

I just feel we should breed healthy dogs who don't suffer from a myraid of problems that could be avoided with good breeding.... and not breeding for extreme traits (like a sloped back on a GSD... which leads to health problems, or giant heads that prevent natural birth). I wish there would be a new movement towards breeding for health and temperament over looks.


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

KittyKat said:


> Yes, English Bulldogs are delivered like that (they used to be able to give birth naturally but people kept breeding the dogs with the biggest heads, which means they have to use a C-section now), I also think that Dogue de Bordeaux can occasionally have issues due to head size of puppies.
> 
> My concern is this: If a dog is not capable of giving birth naturally, they are susceptible to dying during birth, and their puppies are susceptible to dying as well. For instance, if a dog that requires a C-section goes into labour early while no one is around (or they can't get to a vet in time), the puppies can become stuck and suffocate because the dog is not able to give birth naturally, and then the mother is at risk of dying also.
> 
> ...


i certainly agree with your last statement...and yes, i can see your points...you have valid concerns.......thank you for explaining.

on the other hand, if the breeder is responsible as my friend is with her italian mastiffs, she has a vet on call and she herself has taken courses in c-sections...they set a date for the delivery....and the pregnant dog goes off to the vet....she breeds for health also....but they are neopolitan mastiffs...

brachycephalic dogs...i've had many of them....and i blame their problems on back yard breeders and puppy mills....responsible breeders whoever they are.....take great care to not breed problem dogs....

the cavalier king charles spaniel...indeed, all cocker spaniels.....the joy of them is gone, it seems...and i, who love them, will most likely never have one again....due to all the inbreeding and problems.

but we're more talking about breeding issues, here, aren't we? 

did breeders really breed the english bulldog to have a larger than normal sized head? if that's the case, my G'd...what were they thinking....no wonder they don't live long. that's horrid. one of my favourite breeds, too.

did you know there is now a miniature english bull dog for the apartment dweller? i kid you not.


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## catahoulamom (Sep 23, 2010)

magicre said:


> did you know there is now a miniature english bull dog for the apartment dweller? i kid you not.


Yes *facepalm* They are all OVER Miami.


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## meggels (May 30, 2010)

magicre said:


> i certainly agree with your last statement...and yes, i can see your points...you have valid concerns.......thank you for explaining.
> 
> on the other hand, if the breeder is responsible as my friend is with her italian mastiffs, she has a vet on call and she herself has taken courses in c-sections...they set a date for the delivery....and the pregnant dog goes off to the vet....she breeds for health also....but they are neopolitan mastiffs...
> 
> ...



I lived with a frenchie breeder this past year, as most know.

It was really eye opening. Seriously. Her vet was on speed dial, and he often would come in after hours with a few of his staff members to deliver a litter if necessary. She would keep track of breeding dates, and know the date range which the dog would go into labor. There were several times where she and her husband were at work, and I was home luckily, so I would be on puppy duty. Taking the bitches temp every hour or so to make sure it's not falling (which would indicate going into labor). Checking on her often (neurotically lol) to make sure she isn't showing the physical signs of going into labor. Even once she goes into labor, you do have some time to get her to the vet, so it's not a matter of an hour before the puppies will run into problems.

Now, I agree with your concerns. It's something I often think about. But I think that with people who are doing it right (like mentioned above), being responsible and SUPER diligent, the births can be pretty easy. Well, somewhat.

Then you get the bitch onto the table and you can have issues with the anesthesia. But I was in the room with the vet and my friend while the c-sections were going on. He was very skilled, was in and out, to try to make it as quick a procedure as possible. I was handed puppies and had to get them breathing, sucking out their mouths, it was really quite an experience. I don't have the stomach for such medical procedures though LOL  

It was really a great experience though. Getting to see them come out, getting them going and making sure they are breathing and have a good body temperature....and then the care afterwards, hooking them up to the mom for feedings, weighing them several times a day to make sure they are gaining....I will never forget my year with her, that's for sure 

And hey, who else can say that they've had a newborn frenchie puppy in their bra to keep him warm!? HA


The first litter that I helped deliver was truly special. She kept one of the males, and he has such a special place in my heart. 

Him when he was first born:











When we took him to the vet for the first time (always my favorite experience with the litters)










Me holding him:










His first Christmas photo shoot 











Getting to see him from the MOMENT he was born, and he just turned a year in June (and I have a birthday present that I've been meaning to mail to him LOL)....it really is special. He's got a very special place in my heart  Love him almost as much as if he were mine. 



Okay, now I really am just rambling....


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## Scarlett_O' (May 19, 2011)

magicre said:


> i certainly agree with your last statement...and yes, i can see your points...you have valid concerns.......thank you for explaining.
> 
> on the other hand, if the breeder is responsible as my friend is with her italian mastiffs, she has a vet on call and she herself has taken courses in c-sections...they set a date for the delivery....and the pregnant dog goes off to the vet....she breeds for health also....but they are neopolitan mastiffs...
> 
> ...


This DISGUSTS me!! Someone I know who was looking into getting either a Frenchie or EB was asking me about them...I nearly barfed when she mentioned the "Mini-EBs" UGH!!!!!


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## KittyKat (Feb 11, 2011)

magicre said:


> i certainly agree with your last statement...and yes, i can see your points...you have valid concerns.......thank you for explaining.
> 
> on the other hand, if the breeder is responsible as my friend is with her italian mastiffs, she has a vet on call and she herself has taken courses in c-sections...they set a date for the delivery....and the pregnant dog goes off to the vet....she breeds for health also....but they are neopolitan mastiffs...
> 
> ...


I know there are many responsible breeders out there(and thank goodness for them), however I still cannot support a breed that cannot breed or give birth of it's own volition. The very fact that these dogs have to be cut open to give birth just seems wrong. I would say in the case of these breeds (say the Mastiff), they should be bred to a similar breed that is able to give birth by itself. Shrink head sizes, strength back legs... do whatever it takes to make these dogs capable of giving birth without the aid of humans.

As for the brachycephalic dogs.... yes backyard breeders are a problem... however the biggest problem are the breeds themselves. Our desire for a "certain look" has superceeded the health and well-being of the dog. I mean when you get a disease named after your breed (Pug Dog Encephalitis) you have to really wonder.... why are we doing this to animals that are supposed to be mans best friend? I guess i shouldn't be surprised... i mean humans do horrible things to themselves too - but that isn't a valid excuse. We have compromised the respiratory systems of these animals because it "looks cute". This is one of these cases where I don't think we could keep the look exactly the same, since it is the look that's causing the problem in these dogs. It's the look that causes their suffering.

In other cases like the Mastiff's, Frenchies, Bulldogs (yes, they bred for a larger head...), Spaniels you could likely breed in other dogs to fix their concerns without dramatically changing their appearance. Smaller heads for some, stronger back legs for a few... brains that aren't larger then skulls for others. Changes that could really give a quality of life improvement to these dogs (especially the cocker spaniels...).

I think it's the whole idea of being as holistic as possible. I suppose that's easy coming from someone who owns a dog from a breed that's rather healthy - but that is *why* i have her. I did my research and I wanted a dog that wasn't coming from a background riddled with issues. If i did have a dog like that... well i'd be rather tempted to do a ton of research and attempt to fix the health problems through a careful breeding campaign. I don't think we should perpetuate breeds that have so many health problems... but at the same time i'm not saying these breeds shouldn't exist... just that they shouldn't exist in their current state. I suppose in some circumstances (like pugs... pekingese, Boston Terrier, Shih Tzu etc.) that means they would be radically changed(okay, maybe i am saying some breeds shouldn't exist, because it's just not possible to make them healthy without a radical face lift[pun intended])... another breed would be made really, but in most cases I think a carefully executed breeding campaign could be really helpful. I know many people would get their hackles up over this because they "love" their breed.... but I would ask them... if you love them so much, why do you let them continue to suffer? Why would you not support making a healthier breed?


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## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

And let's thank the AKC for that. Add frog-legged GSDs to the list - when I see one, I want to just sit down and cry.


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## KittyKat (Feb 11, 2011)

xellil said:


> And let's thank the AKC for that. Add frog-legged GSDs to the list - when I see one, I want to just sit down and cry.


Yeah I noted that as well in an earlier post. That could be fixed within the breed... they just have to stop exagerating the features and judges have to stop favouring dogs with that look. I will say however... I saw a GSD at a show this weekend who wasn't suffering a case of frog legs. Nice straight back... gorgeous dog... and it beat out the other GSDs... good on 'em.

I know breeds like Shar Pei also went through a bad period where the breed became popular and genetic issues flourished.... but responsible breeders have been working out genetic problems like entropion - where the eyelashes curl inward, irritating the eye (untreated, it can cause blindness). Surgery can fix it, but it can be bred out... so why not?


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## Scarlett_O' (May 19, 2011)

xellil said:


> And let's thank the AKC for that. Add frog-legged GSDs to the list - when I see one, I want to just sit down and cry.


This is the LARGEST reason that I LOVE that my breed's mother club doesnt support the AKC any more then TOTALLY needed!! They allow dog's registered with them to be registered to the AKC, but not the other way around and do NOT support entering AKC shows. (Main reason is because of the distinct difference between the breeding of "show" BCs and working BCs!)


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## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

I am glad to hear that. there is a fellow who brings one to the dog park who has had seven (seven!) operations on his rear legs and the poor dog can barely walk.

There is a website somewhere that i can no longer find that showed photos of AKC GSD champions over the years - they were straight-backed until about 1980, and then the difference became dramatic over the years, to dogs that barely resembled dogs.


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## KittyKat (Feb 11, 2011)

xellil said:


> I am glad to hear that. there is a fellow who brings one to the dog park who has had seven (seven!) operations on his rear legs and the poor dog can barely walk.
> 
> There is a website somewhere that i can no longer find that showed photos of AKC GSD champions over the years - they were straight-backed until about 1980, and then the difference became dramatic over the years, to dogs that barely resembled dogs.


Hmm, i checked the CKC standard and it mentions they should have a straight back... but maybe i'm missing something.


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

Julie said:


> Yes *facepalm* They are all OVER Miami.


now, THERE is a surprise


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## Scarlett_O' (May 19, 2011)

xellil said:


> I am glad to hear that. there is a fellow who brings one to the dog park who has had seven (seven!) operations on his rear legs and the poor dog can barely walk.
> 
> *There is a website somewhere that i can no longer find that showed photos of AKC GSD champions over the years - they were straight-backed until about 1980, and then the difference became dramatic over the years, to dogs that barely resembled dogs.*


OHHH...there was a thread like that on one of the dog forums Im on....but I cant remember which one!LOL


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## chowder (Sep 7, 2008)

Here is the current distortion of Chow Chows by breeders. 

Chow Chow from 1915 
View attachment 3470


Modern Chow Chow
View attachment 3471


The first one has actual legs and a face with a muzzle. The second one has legs so stubby it can't run and a face with eyelids so heavy that they roll in and need surgery as a puppy. 

The goal now is to make them perfectly 'square' which leads to shortened digestive tracts and even more hobbled gaits. It's all about the look, with no thought to their health.


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## Scarlett_O' (May 19, 2011)

chowder said:


> Here is the current distortion of Chow Chows by breeders.
> 
> Chow Chow from 1915
> View attachment 3470
> ...


This is SOOO true too!! I know my dad grew up with a Chow(Sue-Ming) and, in the 60s, she looked pretty much JUST like that one in your picture from the early 1900s!! She was BEAUTIFUL!! I LOVE Chows, I had a Chow-Chow mix-my first heart dog-before we moved into the rv she was AMAZING! But I do NOT like how they have twisted the breed now!!


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## KittyKat (Feb 11, 2011)

I would love it if i saw more "counter culture" (for lack of a better term) movements among dog breeders... like that of the Shiloh Shepard... breeding GSD-type dogs with the straight back, a powerful look to them... more-or-less resembling what the original GSD stock used to look like.


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## meggels (May 30, 2010)

I wish there was a website that had a gallery/timeline of breeds physical changes throughout the years for each breed recognized by AKC. Would be interesting to look at. 


Maybe I'm vain, but I don't know that I'd love the frenchie as much if they didn't look like they do today.


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## KittyKat (Feb 11, 2011)

meggels said:


> I wish there was a website that had a gallery/timeline of breeds physical changes throughout the years for each breed recognized by AKC. Would be interesting to look at.
> 
> 
> Maybe I'm vain, but I don't know that I'd love the frenchie as much if they didn't look like they do today.


Well i have to say, i'm honestly curious as well. Considering that most (if not all?) frenchies can't give birth naturally i'd think that something would have had to change over the years. Perhaps selective breeding of certain traits that caused them unable to give birth normally. 


Here's a link. You know a lot more about the breed then I do, so i'm sure you would get more out of it then I would! The pictures are interesting though.


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## candiceb (Jan 22, 2010)

To respond to the original question, yes, I would be offended if a friend repeatedly bashed my breed, regardless of why.

I have a friend that does this about cats. I no longer have cats, but when I did I was very much attached to them. I had a cat for 12 years that was like my child, and I was truly heartbroken when she passed. When my friend makes some of the harsh remarks that she does about them, I have to wonder what she thought of my cats. Sometimes I'll say, "Hey now, remember I used to have cats!" That usually shuts her up, but on occasion it hasn't. Generally I try to limit how often we talk about topics that I know we disagree and she's very opinionated about. I like her a lot when she isn't doing that, which I suppose is why I continue the friendship. 

I would like to comment on where this topic is going, as far as "whose fault" it is that certain breeds have exaggerated features. It is not the AKC's fault and it burns me up when people start saying that crap. It's the fault of the breeders of that particular breed. The breeders write the standards, *not* the AKC. And to make blanket statements about how dog shows ruin breeds is asinine. There are plenty of breeds who are not really differentiated between "working" and "show", because the breeders of that breed care to make sure it doesn't happen. 

Personally, I believe all breeds should be "dual purpose". They should have a conformation that is uniform, and useful for the purpose for which it was designed. They should also retain the instinct and ability to fulfill that purpose. If a dog does not have both conformation and ability, then it should not be bred. Breeding such dogs only contributes to differentiation that results in breed splits.


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## Liz (Sep 27, 2010)

I agree with the AKC issue. We as breeders have a standard. That we have tweaked and bred to exaggerate a feature is our fault. I see sheltie and collies who have such a ridiculous coat I am amazed if they can do obedience let alone actually herd for any length of time. If they can still move with this huge coat on who would want to maintain it after a long day on the ranch. AKC did not cause that and the standards do not require that much coat. The other is movement - AKC never demanded we sacrifice structure but we did and are still paying the price with choppy horrid moving dogs. I think we are a nation of irresponsible people and we do love to pass blame. I don't like what I see winning, we breed to standard and if that doesn's always win - oh, well. My dogs are healthy, move well, look lovely and have great temperments. I can't ask for more.


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## meggels (May 30, 2010)

KittyKat said:


> Well i have to say, i'm honestly curious as well. Considering that most (if not all?) frenchies can't give birth naturally i'd think that something would have had to change over the years. Perhaps selective breeding of certain traits that caused them unable to give birth normally.
> 
> 
> Here's a link. You know a lot more about the breed then I do, so i'm sure you would get more out of it then I would! The pictures are interesting though.


Thanks, that was neat. My friend sent me a picture months ago that was a collage of frenchies from over the years. Very neat.

I wonder how they bred into frenchies to get rid of their tails? I see the ones in the link you posted all have tails of varying lengths. Also noticed their legs are much longer.


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## meggels (May 30, 2010)

candiceb said:


> To respond to the original question, yes, I would be offended if a friend repeatedly bashed my breed, regardless of why.
> 
> 
> Personally, I believe all breeds should be "dual purpose". They should have a conformation that is uniform, and useful for the purpose for which it was designed. They should also retain the instinct and ability to fulfill that purpose. If a dog does not have both conformation and ability, then it should not be bred. Breeding such dogs only contributes to differentiation that results in breed splits.



What about the breeds, like a frenchie, that literally have no purpose other than to be passed out in my bed snoring lol? 










I would love to find a breed that is similar to the frenchie in every way possible, minus the health/conformation issues. I truly think Murph is the perfect companion for me. So laid back, friendly, not active (lol), I love him. The only thing I would change about him is perhaps make him less stubborn and more easily trained.


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## candiceb (Jan 22, 2010)

meggels said:


> What about the breeds, like a frenchie, that literally have no purpose other than to be passed out in my bed snoring lol?


Frenchies are companion dogs, yes? So what makes a companion good at his job? Obedience, good temperament...

So a good "working" Frenchie might have titles in obedience, Rally, or as a therapy dog. All dogs were bred for a purpose, and any dog can have a job. Even if it's as a "bed warmer".


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## meggels (May 30, 2010)

He's definitely not obedient.....


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## candiceb (Jan 22, 2010)

Lol, well, it's a good thing he's not one of my dogs! 

I have nothing against individual dogs per se, nor people who are content to have dogs who are simply pets. But to be that, simply a pet, in my mind does not justify why a dog's genetic material should be passed down from one generation to the next. It doesn't matter if it's a French Bulldog or a Border Collie, that's my standard for breeding. That's all I'm trying to say. And above all I want to reiterate the fact that this is my opinion, and I don't want you to think I'm in any way criticizing your dog or your choices for your dog. 

But yeah that's me. I prefer breeds who have a specific purpose for breeding. Both my dogs are conformation champions, and I hope both my Brittany and my Dachshund will earn field championships and therefore a dual champion title within the next couple years. With my Dachshund specifically, I'm attempting to work toward a Versatility Certificate, which shows that he's excelled in Conformation plus at least three of the following: Field Trials, Obedience/Rally, Earthdog, Tracking, or Agility. Brittanies don't have an equivalent certificate, but I would like him to be a dual champion, and I'll probably try out Rally or Agility with him here in the next few months. 

But again, that's my preference for my dogs.


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## frogdog (Aug 10, 2011)

I'm late jumping into this discussion but just joined DFC. I came across your thread and had to respond. I am totally aghast and appalled that someone much less a friend would make such a remark. In my opinion...which may not be much...she seems uneducated with dogs on a wide scale and definitely the French Bulldog. A large majority of dogs are/were created by man and perfecting the breed. 

The French Bulldog because of having very slim hips, makes it difficult for the male to mount the female to reproduce naturally. This doesn't mean they cannot reproduce naturally at all but most breeders especially show breeders AI. This is the same for natural birth due to the birth canal. You can see natural birth by French Bulldogs on YouTube. 

House training comes with understanding the breed and having patience. Their bladder is not fully developed until the age of 6 months which makes it nearly impossible not to have accidents. We would take Yogi out and 10 minutes later he would be squatting on the floor but come 6 months and it was almost a complete thing of the past. (minus a few uh oh's mostly our fault not noticing him standing at the door patiently waiting - bark dog bark, lol) Now he wines profusely and if we don't come he paws at us profusely. 

For being hard headed...cannot agree with this one but do think it's more an individual bases. Yogi was the easiest to train and listens better than any dog I've ever had. He is remarkable! When we brought him home within the first week he knew: come, sit, down, shake...second week: rollover, play dead, circle, high five,...third week: speak, stay, high-five, bow (my favorite) etc...he even will pray on command:amen:
He behaves and responds to commands - golden - unlike me as a child:heh: Believe me, I've had stubborn dogs and loved them just as much but had a mind of their own and that was part of why they were so special.

This little breed has the most warming, comical, happy personality and so pleasing of any I've ever known. People stop me everywhere I go even at stoplights and while driving along side on the road - craziness. 

I cannot imagine going forward not ever having a Frenchie as part of the family. I'm a "lifer".

I have to say, all my dogs have always been companion dogs no matter what breed and all have been loving and great.


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## frogdog (Aug 10, 2011)

frogdog said:


> I'm late jumping into this discussion but just joined DFC. I came across your thread and had to respond. I am totally aghast and appalled that someone much less a friend would make such a remark. In my opinion...which may not be much...she seems uneducated with dogs on a wide scale and definitely the French Bulldog. A large majority of dogs are/were created by man and perfecting the breed.
> 
> The French Bulldog because of having very slim hips, makes it difficult for the male to mount the female to reproduce naturally. This doesn't mean they cannot reproduce naturally at all but most breeders especially show breeders AI. This is the same for natural birth due to the birth canal. You can see natural birth by French Bulldogs on YouTube.
> 
> ...


oops meant third week...give me 10...just like high-five but 10:tongue:


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## doggoblin (Jun 6, 2011)

To answer the original post I would say, if you have a companion dog, and not breeding, one mention would have been more than enough. For a breeder it depends.. French Bulldog Health and Genetic Issues, Part 1 | Absolut Bullmarket French Bulldogs shows a breeders view on the health problems for french bulldogs. Full marks to them for not trying to hide them. It's very much a case that in some breeds, modifications are required for the health of the breed in the long term. The first step in my mind is acknowledging that there is a problem. This is what a lot of breeders fail to do. Depending on circumstances, in my view, mentioning it more than once would be justified to a breeder who was in denial.


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