# Hot spots



## FLM (Jan 13, 2009)

My Golden gets hot spots constantly. Anyone else have this problem?


----------



## BoxerMommie (Jun 26, 2008)

What kind of food do you feed? Does your dog have any allergies? Hot spots are many times caused by a poor diet and/or allergies. You can try putting some apple cider vinegar on with a cotton ball a couple of times a day which will hopefully dry it up and make sure your dog doesn't scratch, bite, etc at it or it will just make it worse.


----------



## FLM (Jan 13, 2009)

I'm going to change to a higher grade dog food. Maybe that'll help. When he gets them, it's a trip to the vet and antibiotics. I've read that Goldens are prone to them. My other dog has never had a problem.


----------



## BoxerMommie (Jun 26, 2008)

FLM said:


> I'm going to change to a higher grade dog food. Maybe that'll help. When he gets them, it's a trip to the vet and antibiotics. I've read that Goldens are prone to them. My other dog has never had a problem.


They're prone to them because they're a longer haired dog and only prone to them when people feed a lower grade food. It doesn't have to be a trip to the vet an antibiotics. My best friend has a golden and once he used the apple cider vinegar it was no more trips to the vet and antibiotics as it took care of them and once he switched to a premium food his Golden never got them again. That's been at least a year now if not longer.

I think taking care of the one(s) that is/are there now with some homeopathic and switching to a higher grade food such as Innova, Wellness, Blue Buffalo, etc will help greatly if not eliminate them completely.

Hot spots are a product of their environment not their genetics (ie it isn't like saying a dog is prone to cancer).


----------



## FLM (Jan 13, 2009)

I'm going to do what you suggest. Thanks.


----------



## RawFedDogs (Jun 16, 2008)

FLM said:


> My Golden gets hot spots constantly. Anyone else have this problem?


I used to have 2 goldens that were botherd by hot spots Switching them to a prey model raw diet did away with them. When they had the hot spots the vet would give me some antibiotic spray to help them and it did help a lot. I don't put a lot of credence in ACV. It is given credit for everything from killing fleas to curing cancer. To me, it's just a snake oil like they used to sell 100 years ago.


----------



## BoxerMommie (Jun 26, 2008)

RawFedDogs said:


> I used to have 2 goldens that were botherd by hot spots Switching them to a prey model raw diet did away with them. When they had the hot spots the vet would give me some antibiotic spray to help them and it did help a lot. I don't put a lot of credence in ACV. It is given credit for everything from killing fleas to curing cancer. To me, it's just a snake oil like they used to sell 100 years ago.


Except I've actually SEEN it work. This isn't me finding the info on the net. I've known people with Goldens that it has worked on. It has also brought down my girl's titer for her Valley Fever, it's a natural antibacterial agent and an antifungal agent as well. That's scientifically proven not a myth. I do not believe it can cure cancer, but it does help to build the immune system which may help the disease to not progress as quickly or help to keep it in remission. I haven't tried it with fleas. But until you've actually SEEN it work, don't knock it. I've seen it with my own eyes. I do not think it's a "cure all", but yes I have seen it help with many issues internal and external...including D-mange when nothing else worked.


----------



## RawFedDogs (Jun 16, 2008)

BoxerMommie said:


> That's scientifically proven not a myth.


Where is the scientific proof?



> But until you've actually SEEN it work, don't knock it.


Hehe, I have never seen snake oil work either but if a snake oil salesman drives up in his horse and box shaped buggy and knocks on my door, I'm not going to buy any from him. :smile:


----------



## BoxerMommie (Jun 26, 2008)

RawFedDogs said:


> Where is the scientific proof?
> 
> 
> 
> Hehe, I have never seen snake oil work either but if a snake oil salesman drives up in his horse and box shaped buggy and knocks on my door, I'm not going to buy any from him. :smile:



What I know is that my dog's titer was the same for SEVENTEEN MONTHS as were her liver enzymes, I started her on ACV and her titer dropped 2 steps PLUS her liver enzymes dropped by 200 points in 4 months...little too coincidental for me. I've seen it work on D-Mange when nothing else did. My point is, no it doesn't cure cancer but yes there IS scientific proof that it boosts immune systems to help the immune system fight things off, it is scientific proof that it IS a natural anti-fungal and anti-bacterial agent.

No I'm not doing the research for you, I did that about a year ago and had no reason to save it. Do your own google searches, I found the proof, not just here say, not to mention for myself, my proof is in my extremely ill dog as well as rescues I've seen that it helped their D-Mange, the rash it helped on my own dog as well. For me the proof was in using it and giving it a shot. I was skeptical but I figured hey it couldn't hurt and if it helps then fantastic. I tried it and 4 months later, well it had helped, so I'm sticking with it.

You seem extremely close minded, so hey, if you have an issue and don't try it, no skin off my back, but don't knock something you haven't tried as there are some of us it has greatly helped.


----------



## RawFedDogs (Jun 16, 2008)

BoxerMommie said:


> What I know is that my dog's titer was the same for SEVENTEEN MONTHS as were her liver enzymes, I started her on ACV and her titer dropped 2 steps PLUS her liver enzymes dropped by 200 points in 4 months...little too coincidental for me.


I think you put too much faith in titer. It doesn't measure what you think it does. A lot of things can change titer results. Recent exposure to valley feaver would cause the titer to increase. If it's been a long time since she was exposed, the titer will go down. Titer is not an accurate measure of immunity.



> My point is, no it doesn't cure cancer but yes there IS scientific proof that it boosts immune systems to help the immune system fight things off, it is scientific proof that it IS a natural anti-fungal and anti-bacterial agent.


I saw a post where someone claimed they saw a tumor turn black and fall off because of ACV. LOTS of stuff are anti-fungal and/or anti-bacterial. If it has alcohol in it, it would be both of those things. Rubbing alcohol would have the same effect as would 100 different products you can buy in most any drug store. Whiskey has the same properties. :smile:



> No I'm not doing the research for you, I did that about a year ago and had no reason to save it.


You wouldn't be doing research for me. You say scientific proof exists and I say it doesn't. I'm not going to spend time looking for something that doesn't exist.



> For me the proof was in using it and giving it a shot. I was skeptical but I figured hey it couldn't hurt and if it helps then fantastic. I tried it and 4 months later, well it had helped, so I'm sticking with it.


"it had helped" is a pretty vague statement and often is in the eye of the beholder.



> You seem extremely close minded, so hey, if you have an issue and don't try it, no skin off my back, but don't knock something you haven't tried as there are some of us it has greatly helped.


I think by "close minded" you mean I filter information going into my brain. If you don't filter the garbage going in, you end up with a brain full of garbage.


----------



## BoxerMommie (Jun 26, 2008)

RawFedDogs said:


> I think you put too much faith in titer. It doesn't measure what you think it does. A lot of things can change titer results. Recent exposure to valley feaver would cause the titer to increase. If it's been a long time since she was exposed, the titer will go down. Titer is not an accurate measure of immunity.
> QUOTE]
> 
> A valley fever titer is NOT immunity. Why don't you do some reach on it before you start pretending like you know anything about it. The higher the number means she still has an active infection and needs medication, the lower the number means her body is getting rid of it and given enough time at a lower enough titer you can stop meds. She cannot stop meds until her titer is at least a 1:2 or, preferably, a negative. Nothing except getting better or worse will change a titer result for VF. The higher the number the more dangerous the infection is and the dog can die. Recent exposure typically does NOT even produce a positive titer above 1:2 unless there is an active infection in their body and they need meds.
> ...


----------



## BoxerMommie (Jun 26, 2008)

And no Raw Fed by close minded I mean you refuse to believe anything outside the realm of what is 300% proven and if you haven't seen it then obviously it must not really be true. Sometimes, you just have to open your mind and just because something isn't "main stream" doesn't mean it is hogwash. There are many things that were once considered crazy, like the earth being round, doesn't mean the people claiming it to be so were wrong, in fact, they were right. I'm sure people thought Penacillian(sp?) was crazy once upon a time too and yet now we use it on a regular basis. 

I'm just saying, if you don't try new things sometimes, even if they seem a little "out their" in your opinion you never learn. I thought using Milk Thistle and Vitamin E to help liver disease was crazy...but you know what it worked! Sometimes, you just have to be a little open minded and open yourself to learning new things.


----------



## RawFedDogs (Jun 16, 2008)

BoxerMommie said:


> A valley fever titer is NOT immunity.


I was thought it was like titer for vaccinations. My bad.


----------



## RawFedDogs (Jun 16, 2008)

BoxerMommie said:


> And no Raw Fed by close minded I mean you refuse to believe anything outside the realm of what is 300% proven and if you haven't seen it then obviously it must not really be true.


Thats not exactly how I feel but not 100% wrong either. If something makes logical sense, I tend to accept the possibility more. But if its a bunch of wild claims, I pretty much dismiss it unless there is scientific proof. There are wayyyy too many unsubstantuated claims about ACV to take it seriously.



> Sometimes, you just have to open your mind and just because something isn't "main stream" doesn't mean it is hogwash.


By far ... the greatest majority of the time it does. Remember you have to filter the garbage. GIGO Garbage In, Garbage Out. When someone says, "I think it helped", "It helped a little", "I think there is improvement", "it seems to have helped." -- be skeptical. The speaker is talking himself into seeing improvement.

A good percentage of the time, if you do nothing, the sick animal or human will improve and get well. If in the mean time you have given him some whacko treatment, you will swear that it was the whacko treatment that made the difference but in reality if you had done nothing you would see the same result.



> There are many things that were once considered crazy, like the earth being round, doesn't mean the people claiming it to be so were wrong, in fact, they were right.


Yes because it was never scientifically proven to be flat. That was an assumption. Once it was scientifically proven then we knew the earth was round. Your statement helped my side. :smile:

Its the same with the earth revolving around the sun. The early assumption was that the sun revolved around the earth. Then it was scientifically proven that the earth revolved around the sun and then it was fact.



> I'm just saying, if you don't try new things sometimes, even if they seem a little "out their" in your opinion you never learn.


And if you go around blindly trying everything you see suggested on the interenet you are wasting valuable time in curing some abnomality. Anytime you hear of something you should stop and ask yourself, "does this make sense?" Read the claims about ACV and there's no way they make sense and in the absence of scientific research, I have to say, "No way"


----------



## BoxerMommie (Jun 26, 2008)

RawFedDogs said:


> I was thought it was like titer for vaccinations. My bad.


Unfortunately for everyone that lives in this state, there is no vaccination for Valley Fever. There is no cure, no preventative, and nobody is exempt from getting it.


----------



## BoxerMommie (Jun 26, 2008)

RawFedDogs said:


> Thats not exactly how I feel but not 100% wrong either. If something makes logical sense, I tend to accept the possibility more. But if its a bunch of wild claims, I pretty much dismiss it unless there is scientific proof. There are wayyyy too many unsubstantuated claims about ACV to take it seriously.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Here's your "scientific proof"...for almost 2 years my dog's titer nor her liver enzyme numbers changed...TWO YEARS, she gets bloodwork every 3-6 months and it NEVER CHANGED, I started her on ACV, she had her titer done 4 months later, her liver enzymes AND her titer had both dropped (ie she's improving) and I did absolutely nothing different, no different food, water, supplements, NOTHING (and by still taking the medication which is what is causing her liver enzymes to be high, they should either stay the same or increase, not decrease). Could it be a giant coincidence that her numbers were identical for almost two years and magically dropped after starting ACV? Sure I guess so, but personally I find that to be WAY too much of a coincidence for me. The proof is in her blood work IMO. After 2 years of nothing changing, 4 months on ACV and her numbers dropped and dropped a great deal. Probably not scientific enough for you, but after dealing with this for 3 years, it was enough for me to at least continue it and see what her bloodwork shows when she goes back in for it. To me, in our situation, it is NOT unsubstantiated. Unfortunately since this disease only affects one state in the entire country extremely minimal research is being done, and what IS being done is mostly being done for a vaccine not a cure so in our case, there won't be any "scientific research" on if ACV helps VF or not, but like I said, her bloodwork is enough proof for myself and that's about as scientific as it gets when it comes to this.


----------



## RawFedDogs (Jun 16, 2008)

BoxerMommie said:


> I started her on ACV, she had her titer done 4 months later, her liver enzymes AND her titer had both dropped (ie she's improving) and I did absolutely nothing different,


Hehe, yeah, I've heard this story half dozen times now. :smile: 

Do it with 50 more dogs and we will discuss it some more.


----------



## BoxerMommie (Jun 26, 2008)

RawFedDogs said:


> Hehe, yeah, I've heard this story half dozen times now. :smile:
> 
> Do it with 50 more dogs and we will discuss it some more.


I actually got the idea from a Valley Fever group, so it has worked on more than just my dog.

Like I said, when you have no other options at times you are willing to try something and it isn't my opinion her blood work is the scientific proof for her. My point to people when I recommend it is, it may not work, but it's cheap, and it worked for us, so it's worth a shot. It won't hurt, it may help, it isn't expensive to try or hard to get, so there's nothing to lose. 

Again, if you close your mind to everything you'll never learn new things. I am sorry for you to be honest, in your world your way is the only way and you won't even consider the possibility that there may be a new way...kind of reminds me of many vets that I know...and then fired. Very sad indeed.


----------



## claybuster (Dec 18, 2008)

FLM said:


> My Golden gets hot spots constantly. Anyone else have this problem?


It's most likely food caused. Some ingredients in whatever your feeding are probably causing the hot spots, or the ration is too weak in animal source proteins. Could be any number of ingredients, but be weary and skeptical when you hear it must be the chicken or beef. Point blame in the direction of non-species appropriate ingredients and go from there. Maybe the Yucca...or maybe the cranberry...maybe the sun-cured kelp, alfalfa spouts, garlic, etc, etc.

What happens is diets that are overwhelmingly inappropriate, or simply to week in quality proteins, causes defensive mechanisms to breakdown. One of them is the autoimmune system, and when that is weakened and not up to par, these problem like hot spots can manifest themselves. The best defense you have is avoidance of certain products that are most likely the culprits. They are the diets that are too weak like Supermarket kibbles, or diets too omnivore directed like many of the designer feeds. Too much plant matter is an issue with some of these designer feeds, inappropriate for carnivores. Your best offense is to feed very well and you avoid a lot of problems.

Is ACV the solution? I never tried it, no need for it, so I couldn't say.
If it does work, it does not solve the problem of what caused the hot spot which is what you really want to correct, rather than continuously masking the problem. Why continue with something that is causing the problem, only to have to purchase something else to fix a problem caused by the what you bought first?


----------



## 00BabyBunny00 (Jan 2, 2009)

*Stop being such children!!*

"RawFedDogs" and "BoxerMommie": I'm sorry but, MAN you guys are such children!! This is a forum not a court room. 

"RawFedDogs": I'm sure "BoxerMommie" is only giving her suggestion just like you the forum moderator should do. You don't have to agree with everything but you don't have to disagree so strongly about it (especially if you don't have proof that it doesn't work). "BoxerMommie" is only trying to help! The replys you have given here so far is not helpful at all and really boring to read (I stopped reading your argument after awhile anyway)

"BoxerMommie": you don't have to make everyone agree with what you said. If some people are so narrow minded then be the bigger "man" and let them be. One day, they might just open up and find it useful.


----------



## BoxerMommie (Jun 26, 2008)

Yeah I get it, it just gets REALLY aggravating and frustrating to read thread after thread of he's always right and his way is the ONLY way and if anyone goes outside of that "only way" then they're wrong wrong wrong and putting their dog in danger, and he basically calls people idiots without coming right out and saying it. It IS possible to be educated, and yet believe differently than someone else. It's extremely frustrating to all of the time have to deal with the "my way or the highway" "i'm always right and there is no other way" attitude.

I'd much rather see people who can say (as someone else in this thread has said) something like I've never tried it so I can't comment, or something to that regard...ESPECIALLY a moderator. It's okay to believe what you believe, but it's also important to realize that there is no "one size fits all" for everyone and everything...again ESPECIALLY for a moderator, someone who is supposed to represent this board and make people feel welcome...which I just don't see.


----------



## RawFedDogs (Jun 16, 2008)

BoxerMommie said:


> It IS possible to be educated, and yet believe differently than someone else. It's extremely frustrating to all of the time have to deal with the "my way or the highway" "i'm always right and there is no other way" attitude.


Hehe Early in this thread I said, _"I don't put a lot of credence in ACV. It is given credit for everything from killing fleas to curing cancer. To me, it's just a snake oil like they used to sell 100 years ago"_

Then you insisted this snake oil actually had some curing properties and said there was scientific proof to back it up. All I did was ask for such proof and so far I have gotten nothing. Just because someone makes wild claims on the internet does not make it true. When I see such claims, I always ask for proof and never get it, not just on ACV but on many other myths.


----------



## BoxerMommie (Jun 26, 2008)

RawFedDogs said:


> Hehe Early in this thread I said, _"I don't put a lot of credence in ACV. It is given credit for everything from killing fleas to curing cancer. To me, it's just a snake oil like they used to sell 100 years ago"_
> 
> Then you insisted this snake oil actually had some curing properties and said there was scientific proof to back it up. All I did was ask for such proof and so far I have gotten nothing. Just because someone makes wild claims on the internet does not make it true. When I see such claims, I always ask for proof and never get it, not just on ACV but on many other myths.


And just because there are not published, double blind studies/scientific proof does not mean it doesn't work nor does it mean that it doesn't work for some people. If it isn't going to hurt and it may help in some cases, IMO it's worth having an open mind. Just because the published double blind scientific studies haven't hit the air waves does not make something worthless.


----------



## RawFedDogs (Jun 16, 2008)

BoxerMommie said:


> And just because there are not published, double blind studies/scientific proof does not mean it doesn't work nor does it mean that it doesn't work for some people.


I agree that it works for some people. It works for those people who say, "I think he looks better" or "I don't think its as bad as it was 3 weeks ago" or make other similar statements. Ths is called placebo effect and works somewhere around 36% of the time.



> If it isn't going to hurt and it may help in some cases, IMO it's worth having an open mind.


We've been through the "open mind" thing before. I prefer a knowledgable mind. I prefer facts rather than hope. 

Problem is if you try 3 different things and all of a sudden the dog gets better for whatever reason, you will swear that last thing you used cured him. Thats how these things get started. Someone tries something and the dog gets better. Maybe because of what was tried or maybe just on its own but never the less, the thing that was tried all of a sudden becomes a miracle drug.



> Just because the published double blind scientific studies haven't hit the air waves does not make something worthless.


Pertaining to weird cures, generally it does.


----------



## 00BabyBunny00 (Jan 2, 2009)

RawFedDogs said:


> All I did was ask for such proof and so far I have gotten nothing.


I'm sorry but maybe you need to get some glasses??! What more prove do you want? Something that hasn't been tested by lab rats doesn't mean it's not scientific?

She hasn't only told you her own experience but she's given you lots of other people's experiences!


----------



## RawFedDogs (Jun 16, 2008)

00BabyBunny00 said:


> Something that hasn't been tested by lab rats doesn't mean it's not scientific?


Of course it does. Thats exactly what scientific is. As stated earlier in this thread, the world was flat until proven scientifically different. Everyone on earth though it was flat until it was proven scientifically that it was round. A few people saying something or even believing something isn't scientific and doesn't meake it true. 

You need to study and learn about the placebo effect.



> She hasn't only told you her own experience but she's given you lots of other people's experiences!


She told me a lot of "I think" and "I feel like" and "It appears like". SHe has not told me that XX% of dogs with any ailment were cured as opposed to yy% who were not treated or were treated by something else or were given a placebo. That is what proof is. YOu also don't know what other treatments were given at the same time or whether ACV was the actual cure or was juat in the right place at the right time.

The people claiming miraclous cures probably could have gotten the same results by feeding peanut butter, or salt water, or sugar pills or many other things. We don't know. Just because they gave their dogs ACV and the dogs got better doesn't mean that ACV was the cause. We don't know how much better. We don't know how long the better lasted. We don't know if the better was real or imagined. So you see, scientific proof tells you all this. Thats why It's so important. If there is no scientific proof you can't definatively say something is true or false.

Most physical or mental problems will go away on their own even if nothing is done. If you happen to give ACV in the mean time, how do you know whether it was the ACV or it would have gone away on it's own? This principle is what keeps homeopaths in business.


----------



## 00BabyBunny00 (Jan 2, 2009)

RawFedDogs said:


> Of course it does. Thats exactly what scientific is.


OK. In this case, may I ask how exactly can you perform these scientific test? As stated in dogfoodchat.com (Kidney Failure ? A Myth in High-Protein Dog Diets) even these research are not accurate! Lab rats are not dogs, they react to things differently.

_"... Before you hit the panic button, do understand that the research conclusion was not entirely accurate for carnivores and omnivores. The research subjects were rats. Rats feed on plants, and because of this predominantly herbivorous diet, their stomachs are unaccustomed to digesting great quantities of protein. What caused the kidney failure in rats was not the high-protein diet itself but the incompatibility of their system to digest and excrete protein..."_

Are you suggesting they should perform these test on dogs just to prove your point?


----------



## RawFedDogs (Jun 16, 2008)

00BabyBunny00 said:


> Are you suggesting they should perform these test on dogs just to prove your point?


Yes, thats exactly what I'm suggesting. Thats what they do on all medicines for humans. They must prove that they actually work and that they have some kind of positive effect on the diseases they claim to have. If they can't be proven, they are just voodoo medicine and have a placebo effect and nothing else. 

They shouldn't do it just to prove my point, rather to prove their own claims.


----------



## 00BabyBunny00 (Jan 2, 2009)

Then maybe you can send your dogs to the lab first. Coz I'm not and I'm sure a lot of people won't either. If it happens to me, I'd happily try it at home but I would never send my pet to the labs for to be a controlled testee.


----------



## RawFedDogs (Jun 16, 2008)

00BabyBunny00 said:


> Then maybe you can send your dogs to the lab first. Coz I'm not and I'm sure a lot of people won't either. If it happens to me, I'd happily try it at home but I would never send my pet to the labs for to be a controlled testee.


OK, obviously you have no clue how these things work. In this case, you would take your dog who has hotspots to the vet. The vet would say, Ok, I have this new ointment to try if you want to. This will be a clinical trial on that particular drug. It won't cost you anything. My fee will be paid by the drug company as will the drugs. We will even pay your traisportation back and forth to this office. Your dog will be checked weekly. You will be expected to continue this treatment for 6 weeks (or whatever time). Neither you nor I will know if your dog is getting the drug or a placebo.

It's as simple and harmless as that. Both me and my wife have participated in drug tests before. We haven't had the opportunity to put our dogs in a test.

You don't go to any lab. You don't take extensive tests other than a normal physical which is free. This stuff is done every day. THere is nothing to it. Sometimes you get paid for it.

*ETA:* How else are you going to know if something really works or not? Listen to 2 or 3 people on the internet???


----------

