# Cost of feeding - PMR vs Orijen



## Makovach

This was just something I did to show people who bother me about how much it costs to feed my dogs PMR (no one on here, friends and family mostly). 

So, while writing up my list for this month, I decided to do some comparisons.

My boxers Weight Age Amount fed Daily PMR Amount if fed Orijen
Annie 65lbs 7yrs 1.5lbs 2.5 cups
Nalah 70lbs 5yrs 1.25lbs 2.5 cups
Tucker 62lbs 1yr 2lbs 3+ cups (very active boy.)

With PMR My dogs eat an average of 133lbs a month. My monthly budget for dog food is $100 a month. 

My shopping list (We but extra to keep enough for 1.5-2 months)








You can see at the bottom it shows the average per lb and the average cost per day. 

Next is my break down per day per dog 









Next I expanded that into weekly cost per dog, then monthly cost per dog. (Tucker, Nalah then Annie)








You can see at the end, the total they will use for the month is about $99.40. Just under our $100 budget.

Now to compare to Orijen adult dog($88 per 29.7lb bag)








With the amount they would eat, I would have to buy 2 bags a month and would start to run out before the end of the month. 

PMR- $3.56 per day
Orijen- $5.86 per day - This is also not including that Tucker would be on Prednizone for his allergies to food. He doesn't tolerate kibble well at all it has to do with something in the processing I do believe. Nalah would also have to be on her phenobarbital. As well as going back to the vet almost bi monthly for pancreatic problems. She has no seizure while on raw, when she has kibble, no matter the brand it seems, she has seizures about bi weekly. That was costing me about $150-$300 a month for the meds and vet visits. 

So clearly, PMR is cheaper than quality kibble in my house hold. You just have to know where to shop and what to get! And the benefits of PMR are priceless and keep money in my pockets


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## Malika04

Great breakdown of costs!

I also do not forget CA sales tax! 

We get taxed on kibble at almost 9.0% but not on raw meat. Raw meat is not taxed at all!


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## bridget246

Reading that makes me wish Bridget ate chicken...


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## sozzle

Bloody hell your meat prices are sooooooooooooo cheap, no way could I buy chicken or pork at that price!

I reckon I pay NZ$3-5 per day for my dog, but I've only got the one and I'm not on a tight budget.


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## Chocx2

I was getting pork hearts cheaper like you but recently they are going up, don't know why, but not to bad. Lamb hearts have gone up also. Beef hearts have gone down though. 

I use to spend over 200.00 a month on kibble, maybe more in the end. But my vet bills were killing me. I spend about 300.00 to fill my freezer and that will last about two months. I could feed a lot cheaper, but I don't, I feed the whole chicken which cost me about .95 a pound for whole chickens and .49 for quarters. I try to keep everything under a 1.00 a pound.


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## IslandPaws4Raw

Those are some FREAKIN AMAZING prices! I hope the people you did this little comparison for will stop giving you grief. The proof is in black and white!


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## 7766

I debated on responding to this. I don’t want to start a Raw/Kibble war. I just wanted to give a perspective from the other side. While I understand why you did this, it is something that varies greatly by household and dogs. I have three dogs who do not have allergies, who never go to the vet other than annual check ups. I have been blessed with healthy dogs. I have one dog with hip dysplasia and that is something raw couldn’t fix or prevent.

My dogs don’t get hot spots, or loose hair, itch they don’t lick their paws, they rarely have runny poops. When they are brushed regularly they barely shed. When I got Sam he was fed Dog Chow and had horrible eye boogers, sine he has been switched to Orijen they are gone. 

I don’t have a need to feed raw. I don’t have a dog with allergy or health issues. My dogs do great on good kibble. They have shiny coats, good poops, great energy and look fantastic. Why should I change? For me to feed raw fairly inexpensive I have to buy meat in bulk, get an extra freezer, which adds to my electricity costs and constantly search out new meat sources that may be cheaper. Spends hours on prepping the food and there still is no guarantee it will be cheaper than kibble.

I have never paid more than $60, $70 after taxes for a bag on Orijen Adult. I usually have some sort of coupon and it ends up being closer to $45 or $50. I don’t have price comparisons to meat because I don’t feed raw. But I have been feeding Orijen Adult for a while now. 

Sam – 65lb very active feed 3 cups per day
Stoli – 60 lbs, sorta active feed 2.5 cups per day
Bella – 40 lbs, not active feed 1 cup per day

Using your calculations of a 30lb bag holding 120 cups with the cost I get my bags $70 at; it would cost me $.58 per cup to feed, and $3.77 per day and $113 a month for 3 dogs. 

Most likely it would be $90 a month because of discounts. 

In my household kibble is working and is much more convenient than raw. Because I have a demanding job and a busy life by feeding good kibble at a reasonable price I have more time to spend with my dogs and that works for me.

I also want to reiterate I am not bashing raw or that it is better for some. I am just showing how the argument can be made on the other side as well.


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## BearMurphy

nlboz, must be nice to get a bag of orijen that cheap because it kept going up in price when I used to feed it.

i'm curious, why do you feel the need to show how much it costs to feed your dog kibble when this thread is about how Makovach is trying to show people how it's not extravagant to feed her dogs raw? it isn't a kibble vs raw debate, it is her proof that raw is cheaper than kibble for her dogs because people she knows give her a hard time about it.


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## Makovach

Like I said at the end of my post, its cheaper in my household.

I never spend hours prepping. Maybe an hour or so a month or every other month. 

Raw has also done wonderful things for Annie's hip. Did it fix the issue? No. But there is a major notable difference.


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## Liz

nlboz - as pointed out this is the raw section, no one has asked you to change to raw as far as I have seen and we are not posting in the kibble forum trying to coerce anyone. I am glad your dogs are ok. No one was talking about getting anyone to change their habits or feeding methods. Some dogs do very on kibble and I am glad your dogs are healthy. 

Makovach - I am glad you did this breakdown as I did the same myself and found it very satisfying to see where my money was going and exactly where I was saving. I try to never spend over $140.00 on my seven because that is what I would have paid for mid grade kibble. Mine were fine on kibble also - now they are astounding. I am also saving on supplements, chew toys, shampoo, pooper scoopering, and my costco membership. So for me I am saving about $150.00 per month. I don't count vets because my dogs have been holistically raised and naturally treated and reared for going on 9 years so vet care has always been minimal. The $140.00 I spend includes coconut oil and extra virgin olive oil which are pretty much their only supplements. DE is only purchased once a year so I have always absorbed that into household as it is for yard treatment also - and only $20.00 for a 50# bag


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## 7766

You are right, I am sorry. No one ever posts anything about raw in the kibble section. How dare I think it was okay to post a comment that did not bash anyone or anything. It just showed a different experience on how kibble works for my household better than raw. The post was titled cost of PMR vs Orijen. I feed Orijen and was showing a different example.


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## magicre

nlboz said:


> You are right, I am sorry. No one ever posts anything about raw in the kibble section. How dare I think it was okay to post a comment that did not bash anyone or anything. It just showed a different experience on how kibble works for my household better than raw. The post was titled cost of PMR vs Orijen. I feed Orijen and was showing a different example.


that was snarky.

here's the thing. this wasn't a post about raw vs kibble. this was a post about cost of feeding raw, since so often....it is said that feeding raw is more expensive.

as to you not feeding raw, that's fine with me.....we all do what we have to do.

my dogs don't have issues other than mild arthritis and comparatively, mild allergies....

and i feed raw because i think it's healthier in the short and long run.

i'm glad your dogs are healthy.....


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## magicre

melissa, i love that breakdown you gave. you should post that on facebook, too, so people can see how you've broken it down.


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## 7766

magicre said:


> that was snarky.
> 
> here's the thing. this wasn't a post about raw vs kibble. this was a post about cost of feeding raw, since so often....it is said that feeding raw is more expensive.
> 
> as to you not feeding raw, that's fine with me.....we all do what we have to do.
> 
> my dogs don't have issues other than mild arthritis and comparatively, mild allergies....
> 
> and i feed raw because i think it's healthier in the short and long run.
> 
> i'm glad your dogs are healthy.....



Yes it was, and it was meant to be. I didn't say anything about one being better than the other. I showed how it is more cost effective and does not hinder the well being of my dogs to feed good kibble. Which is what the post was about. She was just showing the opposite. 

She included in her post how kibble has effected her dogs and if she fed it she would have to include suppliment on top if the cost. I included that my dogs did not have issues on kibble so I did not need any extra added costs. 

I don't see how making a case for the opposite of what the post was about is wrong. I see day in and day out how people go into kibble posts and aruge back and forth about what is good for dogs and what isn't and it has NOTHING to do with what the OP mentioned. I feel my response did. 

Why is it okay to challenge kibble feeders in the kibble section over why raw would be better for their dogs issues then kibble, but not okay for a kibble feeder to comment on a post about cost of feeding Raw vs Kibble and the kibble being better not okay?


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## DaViking

nlboz said:


> You are right, I am sorry. No one ever posts anything about raw in the kibble section. How dare I think it was okay to post a comment that did not bash anyone or anything. It just showed a different experience on how kibble works for my household better than raw. The post was titled cost of PMR vs Orijen. I feed Orijen and was showing a different example.


How dare you :whip:

@thebunch; Geez, you guys are beyond sensitive. It was an alternative breakdown and point of view from nlboz, that's all it was. Where is the harm?


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## magicre

nlboz said:


> Yes it was, and it was meant to be. I didn't say anything about one being better than the other. I showed how it is more cost effective and does not hinder the well being of my dogs to feed good kibble. Which is what the post was about. She was just showing the opposite.
> 
> She included in her post how kibble has effected her dogs and if she fed it she would have to include suppliment on top if the cost. I included that my dogs did not have issues on kibble so I did not need any extra added costs.
> 
> I don't see how making a case for the opposite of what the post was about is wrong. I see day in and day out how people go into kibble posts and aruge back and forth about what is good for dogs and what isn't and it has NOTHING to do with what the OP mentioned. I feel my response did.
> 
> Why is it okay to challenge kibble feeders in the kibble section over why raw would be better for their dogs issues then kibble, but not okay for a kibble feeder to comment on a post about cost of feeding Raw vs Kibble and the kibble being better not okay?


honest to g'd, i wish we could have the discourse without the snarky. 

i think it's perfectly okay to challenge. this is how we learn. it's just not okay to resort to snarky. and it happens both in the raw and the dry food section, which will forever be a hatfield/mc coy setting.

that's the shame of it.

it all comes down to tone of voice and name calling. and that's the shame.

that you have dogs who are healthy and you believe is kibble is fine. great.

that i have dogs who are older and maybe healthy but seem healthier on raw is also great.

i believe in not feeding processed foods, i don't care how quality it is. if it doesn't look like the food closest to nature, i don't feed it nor do i eat it. but that's me.

i rarely enter the arena called dry food.....it degenerates so quickly....

and the sad part is i have friends who feed kibble. i too want to know about recalls and such. but i'm not welcome there nor are any other raw feeders....

i do know that as a raw feeder my dogs visit the vet less. no dentals. no issues. 

other than some physical attributes which make my pug have one ear that gets gunky due to narrow ear canals, well that's genetics...

on kibble, he was fine.

on home cooking, he was fine.

on raw, he is magnificent.

so until you've tried feeding raw, you are coming from a position with no frame of reference.

i will continue to applaud melissa in creating a document that shows what she intended.

that raw is not exhorbitantly expensive. and that was her point. 

again, you have no frame of reference, as we raw feeders hear all the time that someone cannot afford to feed raw and if it were affordable they would.

this is what she was addressing.


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## 7766

All I did was come in with a different point of view. The OP was referring to cost, which is what I replied to. Then I was questioned as to why I would bring up kibble, when it was in the title of the post and was part of the post. I was bringing something to the discussion. I wasn't bashing or even being rude. But I was made to feel like I did something wrong. 

I know why she did it. I commented on that. But if you are going to make an argument/point for something, you should be able to accept that people will disagree. She is making her point, I however I am making the opposite point. Doesn't mean she is wrong. That is why I stated it can not be a generic blanket statement. It should be a individual household/dogs needs.

I do have a frame of reference, I feed Orijen without issue and she was comparing costs of PMR to Orijen. Which is what I commented on.

If I came in and said your are just plain crazy, your numbers lie I think you made it up, then yes I would see there being an issue. But I didn’t do that. I came in and made a polite, rational argument/point that was different but still about the topic.


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## BearMurphy

DaViking said:


> How dare you :whip:
> 
> @thebunch; Geez, you guys are beyond sensitive. It was an alternative breakdown and point of view from nlboz, that's all it was. Where is the harm?


i don't think I was being sensitive in my post at all. when someone starts off a post with not wanting to start a kibble vs raw debate, i wonder why they would post in defense of kibble in a "pro raw for my dogs thread"? we raw feeders obviously don't care what it costs nlboz to feed kibble because we aren't looking to switch and they had no raw price comparison for their crew.

if you fed raw you would know that you are constantly questioned about the safety and cost effectiveness of it.....that's what the OP is speaking to in this thread.....she wasn't starting a debate with kibble feeders.

i don't understand why some kibble feeders are overly sensitive about raw feeders feeling that they are doing better for their dogs. when i fed dog food i never felt opposition towards raw feeders, i listened to what they said and thought it made sense but I didn't think i had the time, money, and resources to do it myself. now that I feed raw I don't look down on kibble feeders because i'm sure you feel you are doing the best for your dog even though its something I no longer want to feed


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## magicre

nlboz said:


> All I did was come in with a different point of view. The OP was referring to cost, which is what I replied to. Then I was questioned as to why I would bring up kibble, when it was in the title of the post and was part of the post. I was bringing something to the discussion. I wasn't bashing or even being rude. But I was made to feel like I did something wrong.
> 
> I know why she did it. I commented on that. But if you are going to make an argument/point for something, you should be able to accept that people will disagree. She is making her point, I however I am making the opposite point. Doesn't mean she is wrong. That is why I stated it can not be a generic blanket statement. It should be a individual household/dogs needs.
> 
> I do have a frame of reference, I feed Orijen without issue and she was comparing costs of PMR to Orijen. Which is what I commented on.
> 
> If I came in and said your are just plain crazy, your numbers lie I think you made it up, then yes I would see there being an issue. But I didn’t do that. I came in and made a polite, rational argument/point that was different but still about the topic.


you didn't 'all i did'. you came in snarky. that's what i'm addressing. anything you said after that was pointless.

you can't possibly have a frame of reference because you have no idea what it costs to feed raw. you only know what it is to feed orijen.

please don't say all you did was......you know exactly what you were doing. come on. let's be real.


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## 7766

BearMurphy said:


> i don't think I was being sensitive in my post at all. when someone starts off a post with not wanting to start a kibble vs raw debate, i wonder why they would post in defense of kibble in a "pro raw for my dogs thread"? we raw feeders obviously don't care what it costs nlboz to feed kibble because we aren't looking to switch and they had no raw price comparison for their crew.
> 
> if you fed raw you would know that you are constantly questioned about the safety and cost effectiveness of it.....that's what the OP is speaking to in this thread.....she wasn't starting a debate with kibble feeders.
> 
> i don't understand why some kibble feeders are overly sensitive about raw feeders feeling that they are doing better for their dogs. when i fed dog food i never felt opposition towards raw feeders, i listened to what they said and thought it made sense but I didn't think i had the time, money, and resources to do it myself. now that I feed raw I don't look down on kibble feeders because i'm sure you feel you are doing the best for your dog even though its something I no longer want to feed


This is exactly why I said it. Because instead of having a rational discussion about the post I have spent the time defending posting something that was ABOUT the topic. I am not defending points that I made, I am having to defend the actual act of posting it. I am sorry I didn't come in and just agree. But as I have stated over and over again if you are going to try to prove a point to somebody, there are going to be counter arguments, which is what I made. She can still use my argument that it doesn't cost much more to feed Raw then kibble, or if she doesn't get discounts then it’s not even cheaper. But that is not what happened.


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## 7766

magicre said:


> you didn't 'all i did'. you came in snarky. that's what i'm addressing. anything you said after that was pointless.
> 
> you can't possibly have a frame of reference because you have no idea what it costs to feed raw. you only know what it is to feed orijen.
> 
> please don't say all you did was......you know exactly what you were doing. come on. let's be real.


That's it I am done. Now you are calling me a liar, so much for your comments about rational discussions. MINE WAS!!! All that has happened since is bashing of me. This is why there is animosity.


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## magicre

nlboz said:


> That's it I am done. Now you are calling me a liar, so much for your comments about rational discussions. MINE WAS!!! All that has happened since is bashing of me. This is why there is animosity.


rational?

no one is bashing you. just calling you out for your intent.

someone comes into a discussion snarky and then admits to it....what did you expect? that's what happens in the dry food section. 



> You are right, I am sorry. No one ever posts anything about raw in the kibble section. How dare I think it was okay to post a comment that did not bash anyone or anything. It just showed a different experience on how kibble works for my household better than raw. The post was titled cost of PMR vs Orijen. I feed Orijen and was showing a different example.





> Yes it was, and it was meant to be. I didn't say anything about one being better than the other. I showed how it is more cost effective and does not hinder the well being of my dogs to feed good kibble. Which is what the post was about. She was just showing the opposite.


please don't go all innocent saying you're being bashed and being called a liar. it is clear your intent was to come into this discussion trying to teach the raw feeders a lesson about coming into the dry food section.


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## magicre

so, melissa. i think you did such a great job showing people how cheaply raw can be fed, what say you post this on your facebook page, too.

it's a great reference for those who want to make the switch but don't think they can afford it.


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## BearMurphy

nlboz, calm down.....i don't see where anybody bashed you

if you want to post another point of view in a raw thread that is about somebody else doing a price comparison for their dogs, then why would you feel attacked when others questioned your post? you weren't doing a raw/kibble price comparison for your dogs, you were just trying to compare what you feed to somebody else's dogs, so i asked you what the point of your post was because I didn't get it. it was an honest question that seems to have struck a chord with you. i question other people all the time to learn and understand. i have never seen someone get so upset about it though.

i don't know what goes on in the kibble area, but maybe some of those discussion have caused you to enter raw threads with a negative attitude. that's not needed here. as far as I know, this sub-forum is here to support raw feeders because there aren't many out there. i am grateful for it. i'm honestly sorry that you find raw posts so provocative when they are not meant to be. based on the way you feel, it seems like a waste of your time to even look at threads in this section.


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## DaViking

magicre said:


> rational?





magicre said:


> please don't go all innocent saying you're being bashed and being called a liar. it is clear your intent was to come into this discussion trying to teach the raw feeders a lesson about coming into the dry food section.


LOOOOOOOL. What a bunch of (language removed by CorgiPaws) [manure], pardon my french. Where is all this insecurity coming from? A handful of you think you are being challenged 24/7. Guess what, you are not. This place gets better by ppl offering all kinds of views, knowledge, opinions and experiences, regardless of section. That's what @nlboz did. What do you want re, a disclaimer in everyone's footer saying "I am not trying to teach anyone a lesson"? People take out whatever info and knowledge they want from posts and replies, it's not for you to police, correct or school anyone on what and/or where they can speak. Mods should seriously figure something out, but probably not because it's grrrrreat for seo. Man, @nlboz was nothing but polite in the first post and this is what happens.


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## 7766

BearMurphy said:


> nlboz, calm down.....i don't see where anybody bashed you
> 
> if you want to post another point of view in a raw thread that is about somebody else doing a price comparison for their dogs, then why would you feel attacked when others questioned your post? you weren't doing a raw/kibble price comparison for your dogs, you were just trying to compare what you feed to somebody else's dogs, so i asked you what the point of your post was because I didn't get it. it was an honest question that seems to have struck a chord with you. i question other people all the time to learn and understand. i have never seen someone get so upset about it though.
> 
> i don't know what goes on in the kibble area, but maybe some of those discussion have caused you to enter raw threads with a negative attitude. that's not needed here. as far as I know, this sub-forum is here to support raw feeders because there aren't many out there. i am grateful for it. i'm honestly sorry that you find raw posts so provocative when they are not meant to be. based on the way you feel, it seems like a waste of your time to even look at threads in this section.


Have you read the last 2 pages of posts? That is was I feel bashed. My intention was not to start a war. Regardless of what some believe I know my intentions and that is all that matters. I really thought if I posted a rational argument it could be discussed. She did a cost breakdown to prove a point to her friends and family. She used MY food!! If she put up Canidae I wouldn't have said a thing because I have no experience with it. I made points as to why for my household Orijen is the more cost effective. I feel if you are going to do something like that that other people should be able to make rational comments. None of the comments made were directed at what I said in the post but why I posted it. It became a how dare you put anything about pro kibble in the raw section. I have explained why I added my reasoning for including health issues and why I choose not to feed raw along with the price it costs me. No one has yet to say well with this, this and this raw could be cheaper. If she is going to use this to show people, people are going to make the same points I did. None has said, well if they do make this argument maybe this would help. None of that has happened.

I did not come in with an attitude, but with caution. I have seen this happen, right or wrong on all sections of this forum. Kibble feeders attack raw feeders in the kibble section and raw feeders attack kibble feeders in the raw section. I don't know how may times I can say this, I am bothered by the fact I was questioned for posting what it costs me to feed kibble in a post about costs of feeding raw and kibble only because it was in the raw section. If the post was about costs of feeding raw and never mentioned kibble then I could understand. But that is not what happened. Then I had to go on to defend my actions, like I did something horribly sinister. 

I am so tired of saying the same thing over and over again. I am frustrated and tired of defending something innocent. 

I come into the raw section because I am interested and want to learn. But, honestly right now I am so disgusted I want nothing to do with this forum. Maybe I am taking the responses the wrong way, but it sure doesn’t seem like it. I have learned a lot about kibble and raw from this forum and felt comfortable enough to discuss it. But that is impossible with this group.


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## magicre

so, melissa. i think you did such a great job showing people how cheaply raw can be fed, what say you post this on your facebook page, too.

it's a great reference for those who want to make the switch but don't think they can afford it.


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## BearMurphy

nlboz said:


> None of the comments made were directed at what I said in the post but why I posted it. It became a how dare you put anything about pro kibble in the raw section. I have explained why I added my reasoning for including health issues and why I choose not to feed raw along with the price it costs me. *No one has yet to say well with this, this and this raw could be cheaper.* If she is going to use this to show people, people are going to make the same points I did. None has said, well if they do make this argument maybe this would help. None of that has happened.


well if you wanted somebody to show you the price of raw for your dogs so you could compare you should have said so in your post. I honestly didn't think you were open to it since you only listed the reasons why feel kibble is cheaper for your situation even though you have never fed raw.

you are welcome to learn about raw in this forum, no one is prohibiting you from that. this thread does not change that for you


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## Dude and Bucks Mamma

Nlboz, what I don't get is how you didn't see that she wasn't comparing raw to Orijen. She was comparing raw to Orijen IN HER HOUSEHOLD. If feeding Orijen is cheaper than feeding raw for you then that's what it is. She didn't say anything about raw vs Orijen in general. She has people who tell her that there is no way she can feed raw for less than Orijen so she made this up to show them that she can, indeed, feed raw for less money.

You blatantly admitted that your post was meant to be snarky. How can you even try to say that you did not mean any harm after that?

Melissa, I wish I was as organized as you are! My cost of feeding went up because I went from Pedigree to raw (I know, I know. Haha) but Buck would cost me a fortune on kibble because he eats like a boxer!


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## Sprocket

*GREAT post Melissa! Thank you for taking the time and effort to put that up to show how much money you are saving!!!

I am sure your dogs love you for it. 

I am sorry your thread turned to poop because some people didn't learn manners in preschool or how to read properly.

I look forward to your next post! :biggrin:*


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## Makovach

magicre said:


> melissa, i love that breakdown you gave. you should post that on facebook, too, so people can see how you've broken it down.


Its on face book in my mobile uploads.  I'm trying to figure out how to make it a sticky.


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## magicre

Makovach said:


> Its on face book in my mobile uploads.  I'm trying to figure out how to make it a sticky.


good question. but it surely needs to be one for those who think they can't afford to feed raw. well done you.


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## KittyKat

Raw is more expensive then kibble for me, but not by a great amount. We fed Orijen and canned (plain kibble by itself just seems....) and that ran us about 40 a month for one dog. We used the smaller bag as we didn't have anywhere to store the giant bag where the dog couldn't get at it. If we still fed kibble we likely would have found a way to store it as it would have been too expensive otherwise.

For 1 month we spend about 80 bucks on raw. For kibble + canned on one dog it was about 20 bucks for kibble and 20 bucks (10 bucks every 2 weeks) for cans. So about 40 bucks. We'd save a bit going to the bigger bag, so i'd say about 70-75 bucks a month on kibble.

Considering all i'm saving on dental work and whatever else may befall them, i'm happy. We drive our dogs up to the farm to get the meat and eggs for them, and us! and then to the butcher for the beef heart for them, and cheese and other goodies for us. So we never end up going far out of our way for food. In fact we don't go to the pet store anymore really... 

My dogs are healthy - I didn't jump on this diet to a health issue, both my dogs were puppies when we switched. We did it as preventative maintenance, feeding processed foods to yourself and family all the time is not being health conscious imo. Being able to walk home with chicken for me and my dog is a feeling that a bag of... processed round weird bits could never replace. I especially like that they dig the dark meat (they dig any meat). I don't, so we can split up a chicken nicely.

Wish I could get some more super deals on MEAT.


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## CorgiPaws

I'm just throwing this out there....
My raw feeding bill pushes $900/month. I don't feed much white meat, and I don't have an awesome source.
I spend a solid day prepping every month.
I have a room in my basement full of 5 freezers. 

I could feed Evo for free. 

Raw is USUALLY cheaper for people, but not always, and it DOES get annoying when people make it out to be the cheapest thing ever. That said, I didn't see that happening in this thread. I saw two seprate people giving their breakdown of cost, and then a bunch of people getting their panties in a twist... It's not a competition! 
Though, with as upset as kibble feeders get when raw is mentioned in their section (even though it's usually brought up by kibble feeders themselves....) I'm not sure why the need to post here struck. Oh well. I'm certaintly not offended by someone.doing things differently than me. 


Be civil, or the thread will shut down.


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## Dude and Bucks Mamma

KittyKat said:


> Raw is more expensive then kibble for me, but not by a great amount. We fed Orijen and canned (plain kibble by itself just seems....) and that ran us about 40 a month for one dog. We used the smaller bag as we didn't have anywhere to store the giant bag where the dog couldn't get at it. If we still fed kibble we likely would have found a way to store it as it would have been too expensive otherwise.
> 
> For 1 month we spend about 80 bucks on raw. For kibble + canned on one dog it was about 20 bucks for kibble and 20 bucks (10 bucks every 2 weeks) for cans. So about 40 bucks. We'd save a bit going to the bigger bag, so i'd say about 70-75 bucks a month on kibble.
> 
> Considering all i'm saving on dental work and whatever else may befall them, i'm happy. We drive our dogs up to the farm to get the meat and eggs for them, and us! and then to the butcher for the beef heart for them, and cheese and other goodies for us. So we never end up going far out of our way for food. In fact we don't go to the pet store anymore really...
> 
> My dogs are healthy - I didn't jump on this diet to a health issue, both my dogs were puppies when we switched. We did it as preventative maintenance, feeding processed foods to yourself and family all the time is not being health conscious imo. Being able to walk home with chicken for me and my dog is a feeling that a bag of... processed round weird bits could never replace. I especially like that they dig the dark meat (they dig any meat). I don't, so we can split up a chicken nicely.
> 
> Wish I could get some more super deals on MEAT.


I didn't switch because of health issues either. Dude was healthy on Pedigree and Buck was switched the day we brought him home


----------



## 7766

BearMurphy said:


> well if you wanted somebody to show you the price of raw for your dogs so you could compare you should have said so in your post. I honestly didn't think you were open to it since you only listed the reasons why feel
> kibble is cheaper for your situation even though you have never fed raw.
> 
> Thank you. I am not looking for a breakdown of raw costs. I am still working on getting over the feeding parts of animals it disgusts me to eat let alone have to break it apart and feed it to my dogs. But that is another subject.


This was why I posted in the first place. You are going to face people just like me, but much more ignorant on the benefits of raw. If this breakdown is going to be used to educate people and teach them about the costs of raw, wouldn't it be good to discuss it with someone who feeds kibble and has good reactions on it. It will be much harder to explain it to people like me who are not trying to fix a problem with their dogs. To me this could have been a very good discussion the OP (or any raw feeder) could use when making these points to people. You guys all think it's great because you feed raw and know the benefits of it. Most people don't or stuff like this wouldn't be needed. I know I have no experience feeding raw, but neither will the people who you are showing this to. It's the people that feed kibble and don't object to raw you should be discussing it with. I think it's a very good tool, but I also think having someone to discuss pros and cons with is too. It is like playing devils advocate. Showing this to a person that feeds Dog Chow is futile any way you look at it. Dog Nutrition is not important to them.

What if I wasn't on this forum and someone showed it to me, my response would have been just what I posted. What happens then? 

I sent a message to Melissa, because I did not want this thread to turn into what it did. I felt and still fell I never bashed raw or raw feeders. I shouldn’t have to go through all that to prove I wasn’t trying to cause problems.


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## magicre

we didn't switch because of health issues. i was getting a migraine from the recalls and reading the labels to find the food that would satisfy what i thought they needed.

they did fine on wellness and then on home cooked.


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## Sprocket

*I switched because my pitbull puppy had bad Farts on TOTW. 

Not exactly a Health issue, it was more like a comfort issue! 

My other dogs were fine.

Glad I switched because it's cheaper and more fun!*


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## Makovach

CorgiPaws said:


> I'm just throwing this out there....
> My raw feeding bill pushes $900/month. I don't feed much white meat, and I don't have an awesome source.
> I spend a solid day prepping every month.
> I have a room in my basement full of 5 freezers.
> 
> I could feed Evo for free.
> 
> Raw is USUALLY cheaper for people, but not always, and it DOES get annoying when people make it out to be the cheapest thing ever. That said, I didn't see that happening in this thread. I saw two seprate people giving their breakdown of cost, and then a bunch of people getting their panties in a twist... It's not a competition!
> Though, with as upset as kibble feeders get when raw is mentioned in their section (even though it's usually brought up by kibble feeders themselves....) I'm not sure why the need to post here struck. Oh well. I'm certaintly not offended by someone.doing things differently than me.
> 
> 
> Be civil, or the thread will shut down.


I can't agree with you more. 

I have no problem with the post that was made about the kibble. I don't see why such a blow up. She wasn't bashing PMR, she was stating that in her house, she believes it is cheaper to feed Orijen Adult dog (The food I compared to) than PMR. Granted she doesn't know exactly how much she would spend on raw or if it would improve/disprove her dogs' health, but it is what she thinks, and everyone is entitled to their own opinion. It was just her own comparison.

I did not post this to become a "PMR is better and cheaper than kibble" argument, I did it to prove, as stated many times, to show the difference for me. And maybe to help some one out if they were looking into PMR but didn't think they could afford it. Maybe to give a few ideas to people looking into PMR or just learning. I think the post about her kibble being cheaper than PMR for her adds to the thread because it shows the other side from some one else. And as stated above, its not always the cheapest. Every house hold is different depending on number, size, age, breed and activity of dogs. 

I don't get why everyone can't just get along.

Maybe I should have posted this in the dog nutrition section to be more neutral as to not start an argument over kibble/raw. :/


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## 7766

Dude and Bucks Mamma said:


> Nlboz, what I don't get is how you didn't see that she wasn't comparing raw to Orijen. She was comparing raw to Orijen IN HER HOUSEHOLD. If feeding Orijen is cheaper than feeding raw for you then that's what it is. She didn't say anything about raw vs Orijen in general. She has people who tell her that there is no way she can feed raw for less than Orijen so she made this up to show them that she can, indeed, feed raw for less money.
> 
> You blatantly admitted that your post was meant to be snarky. How can you even try to say that you did not mean any harm after that?
> 
> Melissa, I wish I was as organized as you are! My cost of feeding went up because I went from Pedigree to raw (I know, I know. Haha) but Buck would cost me a fortune on kibble because he eats like a boxer!


I was not snarky in my first post. I was honest and trying to have a good debate or discussion. I became snarky when all of the comments were not made about the content of my post but why I posted in the raw section. It was pointed out several different times. My response was true, raw is mentioned in the kibble section a lot. I have never called anyone out on it even though others had. 

Even though I went on to say the same thing over and over again, that she can show that anyone who uses this spreadsheet to show cost analysis is going to have to explain it to people like me, who do well on kibble and are not looking for a change. 

But it was ignored and I was wrong no matter what I did.


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## Makovach

I personally switched to raw because of Nalah. When I had her before, she had epileptic seizures because of dog food ingredients. I had her on a raw diet (done so wrong!) for two years and she has no seizures or pancreatic attacks in those two years. Since then, I knew I wanted to switch all my dogs because I believe that it is better to feed whole foods in variety over the same thing day in and day out and processed. PMR opened a whole new door in my life to better health for my pets as well as my self.


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## BearMurphy

nlboz said:


> This was why I posted in the first place. You are going to face people just like me, but much more ignorant on the benefits of raw. If this breakdown is going to be used to educate people and teach them about the costs of raw, wouldn't it be good to discuss it with someone who feeds kibble and has good reactions on it. It will be much harder to explain it to people like me who are not trying to fix a problem with their dogs. To me this could have been a very good discussion the OP (or any raw feeder) could use when making these points to people. You guys all think it's great because you feed raw and know the benefits of it. Most people don't or stuff like this wouldn't be needed. I know I have no experience feeding raw, but neither will the people who you are showing this to. It's the people that feed kibble and don't object to raw you should be discussing it with. I think it's a very good tool, but I also think having someone to discuss pros and cons with is too. It is like playing devils advocate. Showing this to a person that feeds Dog Chow is futile any way you look at it. Dog Nutrition is not important to them.
> 
> What if I wasn't on this forum and someone showed it to me, my response would have been just what I posted. What happens then?
> 
> I sent a message to Melissa, because I did not want this thread to turn into what it did. I felt and still fell I never bashed raw or raw feeders. I shouldn’t have to go through all that to prove I wasn’t trying to cause problems.


i think melissa is trying to show her family and friends why feeding raw doesn't cost her more money. it's not about converting them, it's about them understanding why it's a better option for her dogs. but you're right this has gotten way off topic.............

i'm impressed by Melissa's dedication to her dogs and the ability to make raw work for her crew even when she has a tight budget. her numbers prove it, so even if somebody is disgusted but the thought of feeding raw meat they should be able to understand why she does it for the monetary benefits alone. i always wanted to do a concrete breakdown like she did but I'm not sure how many cups are in the bag of food i used to feed and now that its been 6 months since I've fed it, I can't remember how much I used to feed. i know it was around 1200 calories a day but I can't remember if I fed treats and canned in addition to that amount or if it included it


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## magicre

melissa, after what you've been through, and still you stuck it out.....it's just such a well done, you....

and this will help you with your family and friends who think that feeding raw is unaffordable.

i know you have to be so proud of yourself and your beloved dogs. i know i am.


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## monkeys23

It was pretty easy to be cheap and stick with kibble when I had one very thrifty dog that only went through 4 large bags of evo a year. But then I got a second dog... That got real pricey real fast. When I switched from Evo (due to the P&G acquisition... sorry don't care to give them profits!) I knew I was going to Champion. I had to feed Acana grain free because Orijen is way too expensive. Even Acana grain free was not sustainable for us in the long run.

I was paying at or over $120/month to feed two dogs Acana grain free kibble. I tracked my expenses during the first year of raw feeding and I only spend $60/month on average that year to feed my girls. Even without calculating what we've saved at the vet its clear what wins.
Its even cheaper now because most of what they eat is stuff I have free access to because my family hunts and are high quality small scale livestock producers. Not everyone is that lucky and frankly I'd have a hard time feeding them (and myself!) if I didn't have that source. But this gives me the leeway to get specialty items like tripe from greentripe.com or really high quality turkey necks, etc. for more variety without breaking the bank.

But I finally bit the bullet and switched because Lily was began having health issues on commercial food. Voila zero issues once she started eating real food. I wasn't having specific problems with Scout, but after the fact I've noted huge changes for the better in her health as well.

My stupid cat eats a good food. She literally will only pick at anything other than Wellness Core kibble. Being an indoor cat she's always had atrocious teeth. Since she's out at my mom's because of my current living situation, she can safely be an indoor/outdoor cat. Guess what when she started hunting again (she was a barn cat before I rescued her) her teeth magically got better! Nice that free food could do what the $4+/lb fancy kibble couldn't... Next cat I get is being raised PMR, no ifs ands or buts!

To me its not about money or being superficially "healthy," its about real whole foods being key to health for both our animals and ourselves. Sure I could look healthy on prepackaged crap marketed as "health food", but that doesn't mean I'm going to be healthy... organic mac n' cheese is still mac n' cheese. 

As someone with a vested interest in ethical, small scale livestock raising and processing who also works in an academic library I've been reading primary source books on CAFO's and our nations food economy as they come across my desk. We should all be very concerned about big corporate production of foods for animal and human consumption. And yes that includes grain/vegtable/etc crops as well as meat animal production.


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## xellil

nlboz said:


> Have you read the last 2 pages of posts? That is was I feel bashed. My intention was not to start a war. Regardless of what some believe I know my intentions and that is all that matters. I really thought if I posted a rational argument it could be discussed. She did a cost breakdown to prove a point to her friends and family. She used MY food!!


I guess my question is - how the hell could you POSSIBLY have anything to add to this conversation when you have never fed raw?

Only people who have fed raw AND dry would have anything to add here. Pointing out how much you feed YOUR dogs for dry food adds nothing.

you've never shopped for raw in your area.

You've never put up ads on craisglist, or joined a co-op, or talked to a butcher.

Maybe you could feed your dogs for $20 a month.

Your post was ridiculous from the first.


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## pibble_lover

Raw is also cheaper for me, as well.


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## pibble_lover

Also, what you feed your dog is your choice. If you want to spend more money feeding kibble, then go ahead. You will only feed raw if you want to. If you don't, why does it matter?


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## tem_sat

Correct me if I am wrong but, it all comes down to dental benefits. I feel confident stating that at some point in time a dog fed nothing but Orijen (or any other kibble, home cooked, dehydrated / freeze-dried raw, or ground meat for that matter) will be in need of a dental. Said dental should cost somewhere around $250.00 or more. That savings to those who feed PMR far outweighs the cost, regardless of location, of purchasing meats.


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## magicre

tem_sat said:


> Correct me if I am wrong but, it all comes down to dental benefits. I feel confident stating that at some point in time a dog fed nothing but Orijen (or any other kibble, home cooked, dehydrated / freeze-dried raw, or ground meat for that matter) will be in need of a dental. Said dental should cost somewhere around $250.00 or more. That savings to those who feed PMR far outweighs the cost, regardless of location, of purchasing meats.


i think, when we add in the cost of food and figure out as melissa did how much it costs to feed our dogs, we have to include the visits to the vet, not including the usual physical to make sure they are okay...a wellness check, if you will.

but i do know that before raw, we had dentals on both dogs....malia had to lose a tooth, so it cost us 500.....we had to have bubba's ears cleaned under sedation whilst on kibble, so that cost us almost 200.00.

on raw, no dentals and no ear cleanings...i have to factor in those costs, too.

good point.


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## xellil

tem_sat said:


> Correct me if I am wrong but, it all comes down to dental benefits. I feel confident stating that at some point in time a dog fed nothing but Orijen (or any other kibble, home cooked, dehydrated / freeze-dried raw, or ground meat for that matter) will be in need of a dental. Said dental should cost somewhere around $250.00 or more. That savings to those who feed PMR far outweighs the cost, regardless of location, of purchasing meats.


yes, I actually find it ironic when people say "my dog is healthy and they do fine on dry food."

Sure they do. Until their teeth need cleaning. And the stuff that happens that no one ever blames on food - like Rebel licking hot spots in his feet. And I guess no dog ever gets old. I know 100% that all of Snorkels' problems are food related.

Like they sayings go - everything is fine, until it's not. An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure. Etc etc.


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## Roo

I think it's difficult and unfair to add the other side (Orijen being cheaper to feed than raw), without the personal experience of feeding both to really compare. I didn't find Nlboz's initial post as bashing, I think it was being curious and discussing/asking questions about the benefits to switching to raw for her personally over feeding kibble. I think it might have been better to start a new thread with the topic, asking questions, but we're all only human.:smile:



> I don’t have a need to feed raw. I don’t have a dog with allergy or health issues. My dogs do great on good kibble. They have shiny coats, good poops, great energy and look fantastic. Why should I change?


I can only speak from my personal experience, one of my dogs didn't have health issues and both of my dogs did fairly well on high quality kibble (minus Lola's chronic colitis issues) they both had shiny coats, good poops (again when Lola wasn't having an episode), good energy etc., however they look even better on raw, their coats are even more shiny, very soft, and their poops are not only "good", they are also half the size they use to be on kibble, and break down much faster in my yard so I don't have to clean up as much. There have been other added health benefits for me like much less tartar on their teeth and elimination of Ronny's gingivitis problems. Ronny doesn't have the arthritis issues he was showing as an older dog, and they both have lost weight, and gained muscle mass/tone. Both of their blood work has come out with lower liver enzymes, and the ability to make red blood cells easier, which according to my non holistic vet, is very good. Lastly and obviously the biggest added plus for me personally has been that Lola no longer suffers from her painful chronic colitis. 

Beyond shiny coats and good poops, what about the internal health that you can't "see"? Do you think a processed food that is meant to sit on a shelf for a long time, looks nothing like it's whole food ingredients (chicken pellet vs a piece of actual chicken), and has to have the addition of vitamin/mineral premixes to be deemed nutritional could offer optimum internal health? Raw gives you the nutritional benefits of nutrients and enzymes from whole fresh food sources in the most bio-available form for the body, something kibble alone can't provide. (not meant as a kibble bash) Raw offers dental benefits built into the diet, which again kibble alone can't offer (again not meant as a kibble bash). If you're questioning what raw can offer your dogs personally over kibble, I think the best and only real way to answer that question is to just try it to find out. There isn't some magic rule that says once you go raw you can't go back to kibble or vice versa.



> For me to feed raw fairly inexpensive I have to buy meat in bulk, get an extra freezer, which adds to my electricity costs and constantly search out new meat sources that may be cheaper. Spends hours on prepping the food and there still is no guarantee it will be cheaper than kibble.


I agree raw is most likely cheaper to feed when you buy in bulk and get a freezer, which you're right, will add to your electricity costs, but have you researched what the costs might actually be? Have you looked at used and new freezer costs? Calculated out the added electricity costs? For example, I was able to buy my small used chest freezer off of Craigslist for 40.00 and the added electricity costs is about 26.00 a year. What about meat prices? Have you really looked into meat prices in bulk in your area? The prep work is a little more difficult to estimate unless you were to actually attempt raw, but you may find it isn't nearly as much work as you first thought and from experience, most people usually get faster and better at buying and prepping the longer they do it, you develop routines etc.



> In my household kibble is working and is much more convenient than raw.


I agree kibble is much more convenient than raw and realistically for the average person raw may be more expensive, yet so many people still choose to feed raw over kibble, I would think they must be experiencing some benefits to feeding it over feeding kibble, even high quality kibble, or why would they bother with the added expense and hassle?

While I'm sort of off topic here (sorry Mackovach :redface, I just wanted to add that in a forum setting it can be difficult sometimes to understand someones intentions by their words alone when tone of voice, facial expressions, etc are missing. Just a suggestion feel free to ignore, but by taking a few moments to reread someone's post, or asking them what they meant by what they wrote, before responding with possible assumptions, might help to avoid some unnecessary conflict. This forum is an amazing resource for people looking for nutritional advice for their pets, both the raw and kibble sections have very knowledgeable people, who without, some might not benefit. I would hate to see someone leave in either section because of unnecessary or unhelpful actions by someone else. If the arguing, personal attacks, snarky comments, "section posting disagreements" aren't helpful to anyone reading these threads/posts for advice, help, support, etc. then why are we including them? I think it's good to question/debate/discuss both kibble and raw, as long as it's done respectfully, and thank goodness we all don't have the exact same opinion, because more suggestions can mean more options to try in regards to health/diet/training etc. for the individual pet in need.


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## monkeys23

Indeed the dental benefits are a very important consideration, especially given the gravity that poor periodontal health has on the function of some of the most important organs like heart, liver, and kidneys.

Scout had nasty completely brown teeth when she was on kibble (and getting rmb's and dental chews regularly!) and even while on half pmr and half kibble. She was only 2 years old!!!! I couldn't stand to have her breathe near me. Her teeth look like they belong to a totally different dog now. Instead of saying yup looks normal, this time the vet was loudly exclaiming in shock at how clean her teeth are at her yearly checkup. 

And my cat that I mentioned earlier? She was supposed to be having yearly dentals... I can't afford that. And boy letting her live in a place where she can safely go out and hunt is an easier dental cleaning than paying $4-500 for a dental and extractions. Because thats what she would have had to have. Her first and only dental was like $400. Hmmm as opposed to free food that she hunts cleaning her teeth... yeah thats no contest!

And the other cat in the household who is 12, has beautiful teeth for her age and what kind of crap food they feed her. She's in such good shape because she hunts and eats her kills daily. If she were a strict indoor cat she'd be dead by now on that crappy commercial food.


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## Makovach

Thanks for getting back on topic everyone! I really appreciate it.


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## tem_sat

But wait, there's more!

I normally give my Doxie a treat so that I can catch him and put him in his harness before I take him out to do his thing. I will typically give him a tiny piece of beef heart, chicken toe, or fish. Occasionally I will run low on treats in the container I keep in the fridge and will have to resort to giving him a piece of Acana, that I have been feeding to the stray cats. The last time I tried this, I bent down to give him his one piece of Acana and he sniffed it and jumped back 3 feet! There was no way I could possibly catch him with that Acana! I had to resort to a tiny piece of roasted chicken!

That, to me = priceless! 

To be honest with you, feeding PMR is fun! It's hard to put a price on that.


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## Jacksons Mom

nlboz said:


> I debated on responding to this. I don’t want to start a Raw/Kibble war. I just wanted to give a perspective from the other side. While I understand why you did this, it is something that varies greatly by household and dogs. I have three dogs who do not have allergies, who never go to the vet other than annual check ups. I have been blessed with healthy dogs. I have one dog with hip dysplasia and that is something raw couldn’t fix or prevent.
> 
> My dogs don’t get hot spots, or loose hair, itch they don’t lick their paws, they rarely have runny poops. When they are brushed regularly they barely shed. When I got Sam he was fed Dog Chow and had horrible eye boogers, sine he has been switched to Orijen they are gone.
> 
> I don’t have a need to feed raw. I don’t have a dog with allergy or health issues. My dogs do great on good kibble. They have shiny coats, good poops, great energy and look fantastic. Why should I change? For me to feed raw fairly inexpensive I have to buy meat in bulk, get an extra freezer, which adds to my electricity costs and constantly search out new meat sources that may be cheaper. Spends hours on prepping the food and there still is no guarantee it will be cheaper than kibble.
> 
> I have never paid more than $60, $70 after taxes for a bag on Orijen Adult. I usually have some sort of coupon and it ends up being closer to $45 or $50. I don’t have price comparisons to meat because I don’t feed raw. But I have been feeding Orijen Adult for a while now.
> 
> Sam – 65lb very active feed 3 cups per day
> Stoli – 60 lbs, sorta active feed 2.5 cups per day
> Bella – 40 lbs, not active feed 1 cup per day
> 
> Using your calculations of a 30lb bag holding 120 cups with the cost I get my bags $70 at; it would cost me $.58 per cup to feed, and $3.77 per day and $113 a month for 3 dogs.
> 
> Most likely it would be $90 a month because of discounts.
> 
> In my household kibble is working and is much more convenient than raw. Because I have a demanding job and a busy life by feeding good kibble at a reasonable price I have more time to spend with my dogs and that works for me.
> 
> I also want to reiterate I am not bashing raw or that it is better for some. I am just showing how the argument can be made on the other side as well.



This. Very interesting thread though and a great resource for anyone considering feeding raw.

I appreciate those passionate about feeding raw. I think it's AWESOME actually and I definitely believe it's probably ideal for most canines. 

But to be honest? Jackson does really great eating what he does now. All the issues that people talk about that go away with raw feeding... he doesn't have. He's on a kibble and wet food diet and also has a very shiny coat, amazing muscles, a ton of energy, great breath and teeth (I do brush), great poop, zero to minimal eye boogers, why change a good thing? It would require a lot more on my part (to be honest, I don't really prepare any meat for myself. I'm in college, still living at home, and hardly cook for myself). When I fed him pre-made raw, I saw no real difference (maybe a bit less poop).

And anyone who says PMR is just as easy as kibble is lying. It's obviously not. Yes it can be made simple, but it's not going to be as simple as buy bag, scoop, pour. Not that easiest is always the best or ideal. But those dogs who do fine on kibble, and owners don't want to switch, I don't see a reason to. An unbalanced raw diet can be dangerous to a dog too IMO so I think it's important that an owner does a lot of research first before beginning. It's not as simple as throwing a raw piece of chicken down and there's the dogs meal (which I think is what a lot of people think of when they hear "raw" diet).


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## Jacksons Mom

Makovach said:


> I can't agree with you more.
> 
> I have no problem with the post that was made about the kibble. I don't see why such a blow up. She wasn't bashing PMR, she was stating that in her house, she believes it is cheaper to feed Orijen Adult dog (The food I compared to) than PMR. Granted she doesn't know exactly how much she would spend on raw or if it would improve/disprove her dogs' health, but it is what she thinks, and everyone is entitled to their own opinion. It was just her own comparison.
> 
> I did not post this to become a "PMR is better and cheaper than kibble" argument, I did it to prove, as stated many times, to show the difference for me. And maybe to help some one out if they were looking into PMR but didn't think they could afford it. Maybe to give a few ideas to people looking into PMR or just learning. I think the post about her kibble being cheaper than PMR for her adds to the thread because it shows the other side from some one else. And as stated above, its not always the cheapest. Every house hold is different depending on number, size, age, breed and activity of dogs.
> 
> I don't get why everyone can't just get along.
> 
> Maybe I should have posted this in the dog nutrition section to be more neutral as to not start an argument over kibble/raw. :/


I just briefly read through the thread.

Sorry your thread got turned into this.

I agree, I think it was a great comparison information post. I didn't take it that you were trying to shove it down peoples throats or anything. I think its awesome that you have a diet for your dogs that works well AND is cost efficient.


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## Jacksons Mom

xellil said:


> yes, I actually find it ironic when people say "my dog is healthy and they do fine on dry food."
> 
> Sure they do. Until their teeth need cleaning. And the stuff that happens that no one ever blames on food - like Rebel licking hot spots in his feet. And I guess no dog ever gets old. I know 100% that all of Snorkels' problems are food related.
> 
> Like they sayings go - everything is fine, until it's not. An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure. Etc etc.


But a lot of dogs are healthy on dry food.

I am sure there have been dogs that have died young on raw, and dogs that have lived to be very old on kibble and vice versa. There are sooo many things to factor in (i.e. how much exercise, their genetics, environment, etc). But everything can be fine on raw, too, and then it's not. Just playing devils advocate. I admit I don't spend a lot of time in the raw section.

And it's not that hard to brush a dogs teeth to prevent dentals and dental problems. One tube of dog toothpaste cost me around $7 and it's lasted me almost a year so far.

But I'm not arguing which way is better. Just that arguments can be made on both sides.

I wish I had the time, the energy, the money, the stomach and the desire to feed raw. But I don't at this point in time. Is raw probably ideal? Yeah, probably for a lot of dogs. But no every dog is not going to be 100% better, or have a higher chance of living longer and healthier, just by being on raw.

I have noted a lot of our grocery stores pricing on meat, and yeah, if I looked hard enough I could probably find better deals but right now, it's cheaper for me to feed primarily kibble (I do keep a bag of pre-made raw around in the freezer, for some meals, and will add any leftover cooked meat from our dinners to share with him - because I do believe a dog is designed to eat meat).

But I don't think that just because a dog isn't fed raw doesn't mean that they are doomed to die of some horrid problem caused by dry food either.

I'm definitely very curious about it, and interested in raw feeding but don't really have the desire to do it right now. If anything I'd feed pre-made raw first, but alas, can't afford it full-time (and I know premade is like a gazillion times more expensive than PMR).


----------



## tem_sat

Jacksons Mom said:


> This. Very interesting thread though and a great resource for anyone considering feeding raw.
> 
> I appreciate those passionate about feeding raw. I think it's AWESOME actually and I definitely believe it's probably ideal for most canines.
> 
> But to be honest? Jackson does really great eating what he does now. All the issues that people talk about that go away with raw feeding... he doesn't have. He's on a kibble and wet food diet and also has a very shiny coat, amazing muscles, a ton of energy, great breath and teeth (I do brush), great poop, zero to minimal eye boogers, why change a good thing? It would require a lot more on my part (to be honest, I don't really prepare any meat for myself. I'm in college, still living at home, and hardly cook for myself). When I fed him pre-made raw, I saw no real difference (maybe a bit less poop).
> 
> And anyone who says PMR is just as easy as kibble is lying. It's obviously not. Yes it can be made simple, but it's not going to be as simple as buy bag, scoop, pour. Not that easiest is always the best or ideal. But those dogs who do fine on kibble, and owners don't want to switch, I don't see a reason to. An unbalanced raw diet can be dangerous to a dog too IMO so I think it's important that an owner does a lot of research first before beginning. It's not as simple as throwing a raw piece of chicken down and there's the dogs meal (which I think is what a lot of people think of when they hear "raw" diet).


I will attempt to hit all the points you have made above. These points are applicable to PMR. Do not assume the same results for commercially produced raw dog food.

1. Dental: Jackson had a recent dental, correct? Assuming he had no need for extractions or additional procedures, that dental likely would not have been needed should he have been fed PMR.

2. Time Requirements: Your dog is slightly larger than mine. I purchase food once per year and on a whim, I will purchase what I feel would be neat to feed. I believe you purchase small bags on a very frequent basis. You could save time by simply purchasing bi-annually or annually and avoiding the time spent shopping for various brands which you like to include in rotation.

3. PMR IS as "easy" as kibble! I have 30 portioned Ziploc bags in my freezer. I grab one and toss it in the fridge to defrost. The next morning I grab the Ziploc and open it. I dump the contents into a bowl and give it to my dog. Is there something far more complex about this procedure?

4. Following this link will not result in an "unbalanced raw diet": Quick Start | Prey Model Raw When starting out, it IS as simple as as "throwing a raw piece of chicken down and there's the dogs meal".


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## xellil

Jacksons Mom said:


> This. Very interesting thread though and a great resource for anyone considering feeding raw.
> 
> I appreciate those passionate about feeding raw. I think it's AWESOME actually and I definitely believe it's probably ideal for most canines.
> 
> But to be honest? Jackson does really great eating what he does now. All the issues that people talk about that go away with raw feeding... he doesn't have. He's on a kibble and wet food diet and also has a very shiny coat, amazing muscles, a ton of energy, great breath and teeth (I do brush), great poop, zero to minimal eye boogers, why change a good thing? It would require a lot more on my part (to be honest, I don't really prepare any meat for myself. I'm in college, still living at home, and hardly cook for myself). When I fed him pre-made raw, I saw no real difference (maybe a bit less poop).
> 
> And anyone who says PMR is just as easy as kibble is lying. It's obviously not. Yes it can be made simple, but it's not going to be as simple as buy bag, scoop, pour. Not that easiest is always the best or ideal. But those dogs who do fine on kibble, and owners don't want to switch, I don't see a reason to. An unbalanced raw diet can be dangerous to a dog too IMO so I think it's important that an owner does a lot of research first before beginning. It's not as simple as throwing a raw piece of chicken down and there's the dogs meal (which I think is what a lot of people think of when they hear "raw" diet).


Yes, it IS as easy as buying a chicken and throwing it to a dog. It's exactly what I did. I found out about raw one day and started the next. I didn't have to do months of research. I followed directions here. No one has to do research to know fresh food is better than Burger King. Frankly, I don't understand why it's become some kind of common theme that you can't just jump right into it, with the right support like this place. No one who comes here is going to feed a diet of chicken breast.

It's not about how much more time someone can spend with their dog if they mindlessly pour food into a bowl rather than get it from the fridge.

It's not about how healthy a dog is when it's one year old, or two, or three. Come back when they are 12 and 14, and by the way - add up the cost of the dentals between now and then. Unless someone plans on dumping their dog when vet bills start adding up, or not getting them proper health care when they get rotten teeth, kidney and heart disease, and arthritis, old age should be a concern.

No human worries about a heart attack when they are 20, even if they live on pizza and beer.

Originally, this thread WAS about cost of dry vs. raw. Which is what so many people whine about - I can't afford it. Makovich was just pointing out that yes, you can feed raw cheaper. It can even be done for free, for some people. Anyone saying different is either a liar or ignorant. Or lives where meat is extremely expensive, which is not most places in the US. Or feeds Ole Roy.

No one was telling kibble owners they need to switch. Everyone should feed what they feel like. But don't argue that PRICE is lower with dry. It's not cut and dry like with kibble. You can spend as much or as little as you want with raw.


----------



## Jacksons Mom

Out of pure curiosity, since I am relatively, admittedly, unknowledgeable when it comes to raw feeding in the likes of PMR .... for those of you who have active 16lb or so dogs... I'd be curious how much you feed.

I pay around $16.99 for a 5.5lb of Acana grainfree and that will last us a little over a month for one dog (at 2/3 cup per day). He also gets one can a week of Weruva (the smaller can) and that runs $1.37 per can (from the site I order from) so that's about $5.48 per month in cans. So that's $22.47 per month approx (since the dry lasts a bit longer than a month) to feed one 16lb dog. Would it be possible to feed PMR staying around this price?

I know when I priced pre-made, like Primal, it was definitely a lot more. I think a 4lb bag of Primal chicken was around $24 and contains 64 nuggets. He would need 5 or 6 nuggets per day according to calculators. So that's 42 nuggets per week? did I do my math right?


----------



## Jacksons Mom

xellil said:


> Yes, it IS as easy as buying a chicken and throwing it to a dog. It's exactly what I did. I found out about raw one day and started the next. I didn't have to do months of research. I followed directions here. No one has to do research to know fresh food is better than Burger King. Frankly, I don't understand why it's become some kind of common theme that you can't just jump right into it, with the right support like this place. No one who comes here is going to feed a diet of chicken breast.
> 
> It's not about how much more time someone can spend with their dog if they mindlessly pour food into a bowl rather than get it from the fridge.
> 
> It's not about how healthy a dog is when it's one year old, or two, or three. Come back when they are 12 and 14, and by the way - add up the cost of the dentals between now and then. Unless someone plans on dumping their dog when vet bills start adding up, or not getting them proper health care when they get rotten teeth, kidney and heart disease, and arthritis, old age should be a concern.
> 
> No human worries about a heart attack when they are 20, even if they live on pizza and beer.
> 
> Originally, this thread WAS about cost of dry vs. raw. Which is what so many people whine about - I can't afford it. Makovich was just pointing out that yes, you can feed raw cheaper. It can even be done for free, for some people. Anyone saying different is either a liar or ignorant. Or lives where meat is extremely expensive, which is not most places in the US. Or feeds Ole Roy.
> 
> No one was telling kibble owners they need to switch. Everyone should feed what they feel like. But don't argue that PRICE is lower with dry. It's not cut and dry like with kibble. You can spend as much or as little as you want with raw.


Yeah but what went into preparing all that food that is in zipblock baggies in your fridge? I'm just saying, that yes maybe it's lazy, but kibble is easier. Not that it's necessarily ideal, but it is easier. 

Yup, Jackson had a dental - due to a different tooth problem. He had a canine tooth that was poking up into his gums due to a slight overbite. The need for a dental cleaning wasn't that great, but I did it anyways while he was under, since he did have a bit of build up on the top canine teeth. I had probably only brushed his teeth four times in all of his life also. I am certain teeth brushing would have kept it away, as it has been for the past 6 months or so. He does get Himalayan chews and bully sticks too which I think do help. 

I'm just pointing out that there's always going to be a right way for one dog and a wrong way for another. And yes there will be pros and cons to both. Nothing is ever perfect. I think we all on this forum love our dogs and will do the best we can for them.


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## xellil

i fed Snorkels 16 little nuggets a day. But it's hard to tell because she got so much other stuff - my cabinets were packed with prescription meds, pumpkin, beans, cottage cheese, yogurt. Her vet bills alone were in the thousands of dollars so I could feed her prime rib every meal and still come out way head.

My costs are way down with her just foodwise - maybe $20 per month. She's 10 pounds and not very active compared to a young dog.


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## tem_sat

Jacksons Mom said:


> Out of pure curiosity, since I am relatively, admittedly, unknowledgeable when it comes to raw feeding in the likes of PMR .... for those of you who have active 16lb or so dogs... I'd be curious how much you feed.
> 
> I pay around $16.99 for a 5.5lb of Acana grainfree and that will last us a little over a month for one dog (at 2/3 cup per day). He also gets one can a week of Weruva (the smaller can) and that runs $1.37 per can (from the site I order from) so that's about $5.48 per month in cans. So that's $22.47 per month approx (since the dry lasts a bit longer than a month) to feed one 16lb dog. Would it be possible to feed PMR staying around this price?
> 
> I know when I priced pre-made, like Primal, it was definitely a lot more. I think a 4lb bag of Primal chicken was around $24 and contains 64 nuggets. He would need 5 or 6 nuggets per day according to calculators. So that's 42 nuggets per week? did I do my math right?


12lb Doxie: annual cost $50 to 100$. Total pounds fed per year: 92. You are FAR AND AWAY spending more than I am, and I am not even including the occasional dental.


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## Jacksons Mom

tem_sat said:


> 12lb Doxie: annual cost $50 to 100$. Total pounds fed per year: 92. You are FAR AND AWAY spending more than I am, and I am not even including the occasional dental.


$50-$100 is a pretty wide range. What do you usually buy for her? (again, seriously just curious how this works). 

Like, do you go to the grocery store, find random meats, and feed? How many times a week do you prep, and how much freezer space is needed, etc?


----------



## xellil

Jacksons Mom said:


> Yeah but what went into preparing all that food that is in zipblock baggies in your fridge? I'm just saying, that yes maybe it's lazy, but kibble is easier. Not that it's necessarily ideal, but it is easier.
> 
> Yup, Jackson had a dental - due to a different tooth problem. He had a canine tooth that was poking up into his gums due to a slight overbite. The need for a dental cleaning wasn't that great, but I did it anyways while he was under, since he did have a bit of build up on the top canine teeth. I had probably only brushed his teeth four times in all of his life also. I am certain teeth brushing would have kept it away, as it has been for the past 6 months or so. He does get Himalayan chews and bully sticks too which I think do help.
> 
> I'm just pointing out that there's always going to be a right way for one dog and a wrong way for another. And yes there will be pros and cons to both. Nothing is ever perfect. I think we all on this forum love our dogs and will do the best we can for them.


I am not the one with ziploc baggies in the freezer. You can also make it alot more complicated. I buy it, thaw it enough to throw it into grocery bags, and pull out whatever is on top. I use it for a couple of days and throw it back in the freezer. Takes me maybe 15 minutes more a week than digging food out of a bag.

And if it's not bulk, I don't even do that much. I bought 60 pounds of beef heart yesterday and just chunked them all in the freezer.

The ONLY think that takes time is cutting up Snorkels meat. But on dry, I had to remember to soak it for half and hour. And i had to get out the pumpkin, and the cottage cheese, and the yogurt. And cook the green beans.

Heck, I'm probably saving time, too.


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## Jacksons Mom

I guess my main point, to get back on topic of the thread, is either diet can be made cost efficient. I guess it's all a matter of how much you are willing to spend, and what health benefits your dog will receive from the diet.

I'm just not personally ready to feed raw, so I'm content doing what I'm doing now. I could probably feed raw for the same or less, but at this current moment in time, it's not for me.

It is nice seeing cost all laid out, though, and the differences. Definitely something to think about.


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## tem_sat

Jacksons Mom said:


> $50-$100 is a pretty wide range. What do you usually buy for her? (again, seriously just curious how this works).
> 
> Like, do you go to the grocery store, find random meats, and feed? How many times a week do you prep, and how much freezer space is needed, etc?


$50 to $100 is really not a wide range annually for dogs of our size. If I wanted to try to hit $50 a year, I wouldn't go to Whole Foods and buy Mackerel at $5.00 per pound. If I wanted to try to hit $50.00 a year, I would ask my parents to always cut out the chicken back and wings and save that for my dog whenever they cooked a whole chicken. There are multitudes of ways to avoid all waste. I prep once per month. That takes 1 hour. I use my existing freezer for my dog's food. It's a standard freezer and holds about 100lbs at one time. So it will hold 1 year's worth of food. That's that!


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## Makovach

Jacksons Mom said:


> $50-$100 is a pretty wide range. What do you usually buy for her? (again, seriously just curious how this works).
> 
> Like, do you go to the grocery store, find random meats, and feed? How many times a week do you prep, and how much freezer space is needed, etc?


Your dog would eat 5oz- 7 oz a day depending on what he needs to stay trim and not fat (that is 2-3% of his weight.) If you bought 10 lbs pork heart - $7.50, 20lbs of chicken quarters- $11.80, 10lbs beef heart- $9.90, two lbs of beef liver, kidney and spleen each - $4.50 and 10lbs of turkey/chicken necks- $7.50 you would have 56lbs, spent $41.20 and would be able to feed your pooch for 179 days (5.5-6 months roughly) Making your monthly cost about $7.49 per month. I'll even throw in the extra $10 a month to run the freezer. 

So totaling $17.50 a month roughly (food and to run the freezer, which I personally don't count because we use it for ourselves too)
Granted, these are prices from where I shop, and it could be less/more for you where you live. But I would think $60-$70 should feed your dog for about five months atleast even if your products were more expensive. But like I said, could be more, could be less.


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## Jacksons Mom

tem_sat said:


> $50 to $100 is really not a wide range annually for dogs of our size. If I wanted to try to hit $50 a year, I wouldn't go to Whole Foods and buy Mackerel at $5.00 per pound. If I wanted to try to hit $50.00 a year, I would ask my parents to always cut out the chicken back and wings and save that for my dog whenever they cooked a whole chicken. There are multitudes of ways to avoid all waste. I prep once per month. That takes 1 hour. I use my existing freezer for my dog's food. It's a standard freezer and holds about 100lbs at one time. So it will hold 1 year's worth of food. That's that!


Gotcha!

Maybe someday.... I know my parents wouldn't let me use their freezer for Jackson's meals, lol. Our freezer is already wayyyy over packed. But it'd be something I'd possibly consider down the road, if I was in my own place.


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## Jacksons Mom

Makovach said:


> Your dog would eat 5oz- 7 oz a day depending on what he needs to stay trim and not fat (that is 2-3% of his weight.) If you bought 10 lbs pork heart - $7.50, 20lbs of chicken quarters- $11.80, 10lbs beef heart- $9.90, two lbs of beef liver, kidney and spleen each - $4.50 and 10lbs of turkey/chicken necks- $7.50 you would have 56lbs, spent $41.20 and would be able to feed your pooch for 179 days (5.5-6 months roughly) Making your monthly cost about $7.49 per month. I'll even throw in the extra $10 a month to run the freezer.
> 
> So totaling $17.50 a month roughly (food and to run the freezer, which I personally don't count because we use it for ourselves too)
> Granted, these are prices from where I shop, and it could be less/more for you where you live. But I would think $60-$70 should feed your dog for about five months atleast even if your products were more expensive. But like I said, could be more, could be less.


AWESOME, thanks for doing all the math for me. Haha! It's really interesting to see it all laid out like that.


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## kathylcsw

Because I am OCD I have a spreadsheet to track what I spend on feeding my dogs. I have a 1 year old JRT who weighs 9lbs and a 7 month old Toy Fox Terrier who weighs about 7lbs. Since I started feeding raw on December 22 I have spent $94 on meat. I have a small chest freezer that is full and some more meat in my fridge freezer and my other chest freezer. If I just fed out of what I still have left I could easily feed them for probably a year. So it costs me less than $100 per year to feed 2 small dogs.

I get a lot of free meat from Craigs List and deer scraps from my brother so I average about .50 per lb right now and I feed 4 lbs per week. I can't compare it with the cost of kibble because I only fed Lola all kibble for the first 3 months I had her. For the next 2 months I fed part raw, part kibble until the switch to all raw in December. I never fed Buster kibble so I don't know how much it would have been to feed them both.

I thaw out a few protein sources and weigh out their meals once per day. I probably spend 10-15 minutes a day cutting and weighing. It really isn't a big time constraint. On the weekends I may put in some time cutting up big pieces into manageable chunks. It is definitely more time consuming than kibble but for me and the pups I think the benefits outweigh the time I have to invest.

I totally believe that what and how you feed your dogs is a personal choice and in no way reflects on how much you do or don't love your dog. Everybody has to do what works for them and I would never judge or condemn someone who does it differently than I do. I don't like to see these wars flare up among the different feeding styles. I would love to think we can move to a place where there can be a dialogue with everyone respecting each other's right to have different opinions and ways of doing things. This forum has so many great people who truly love their dogs and want what is best for them and I would hate to see them leave because civil discourse is impossible. It is possible to disagree without being disagreeable.


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## jezzdobbel8610

Wow, i'm reading the last few posts on this thread, and realize how much difference there is in amount of feeding little dogs. Makes me a little bit jealous. I mean some of you guys can feed a dog 100lbs for one year???? the way i figure it out, Shylo will have to eat 100lbs for 1 and half MONTH!!!! lmao.:doh: Still love my baby boy, even if he's a giant lol.


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## xellil

jezzdobbel8610 said:


> Wow, i'm reading the last few posts on this thread, and realize how much difference there is in amount of feeding little dogs. Makes me a little bit jealous. I mean some of you guys can feed a dog 100lbs for one year???? the way i figure it out, Shylo will have to eat 100lbs for 1 and half MONTH!!!! lmao.:doh: Still love my baby boy, even if he's a giant lol.


I have a 100 pound dog and a 10 pound dog. honestly, I don't even count the small dog's food. It's just scraps off the meat for the big dog, basically.

He is eating about 90 pounds a month.


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## KittyKat

Piper did not like kibble, so it was just as much prep as raw is. 

"Eat your food."
*adds canned*
"See? Yummy! Eat your food!"
*mixes stuff around*
"mmmm yummy, eat it!"

*takes away*

*puts back*

"See? Food!"
"Yes I know it doesn't look like mine, but yours has a dog on the bag."
*Adds yogurt*
*dog eats yogurt*
"Yes, but what's UNDER it is what you want..."
*mixes more yogurt in*
*dog licks yogurt off food*

.... now we just toss meat and she devours it. In fact she's pinned to my side while I make it. She never heeled that good before I held fresh meat in my hands. Its a lot less hassle then the "please eat" dance. Especially before shows.
I'm sure it wouldn't be that way with Flynn (he'd eat his own foot if he could) but with Piper it was a task and a half.


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## riddick4811

jezzdobbel8610 said:


> Wow, i'm reading the last few posts on this thread, and realize how much difference there is in amount of feeding little dogs. Makes me a little bit jealous. I mean some of you guys can feed a dog 100lbs for one year???? the way i figure it out, Shylo will have to eat 100lbs for 1 and half MONTH!!!! lmao.:doh: Still love my baby boy, even if he's a giant lol.


Me too! If I went back to all raw, we would need 450lbs a month!


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## Liz

Our 7 get a total of about 10 pounds per day - so we feed around 300 pounds per month. On kibble I fed 4 - 5 forty pound bags per month and they were $35 each - the Nature's domain from Costco. $140.00 - $175.00 just on kibble. I never spend more than $140.00 per month on raw. 

Part of raw feeding is also part of natural rearing for us. I cannot claim to be a naturally rearing breeder while feeding my carnivores kibble and other processed foods. Neither do we use man made chemicals for flea, heartworm, or even mild medical care. They are holistically treated fro 90-95% of all issues. My family is cared for the same way. 

For some here raw feeding is about feeding your dog an unprocessed natural diet and offering similar care. It is about caring for your dog like the carnivore he is. If you feed good kibble and your dog is well I am glad for you. If it is easier for you and you feel good about your choice then more power to you. I feed raw because I believe it is the absolute best I can do for my pets whether it is super convenient for me or not is really not a consideration or a very big one anyway. I have found that we pretty much make a way for what we really want to happen. 

My family is cared for homeopathically, and eats very little to no processed foods and my dogs should get no less. Being able to feed them raw for less than kibble is just icing on the cake.


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## PDXdogmom

Very interesting thread . . . for the most part (minus the hurt and angry posts in the middle.)

One I thing I take away from it is that both kibble and raw feeding can be done very inexpensively or very expensively.

Raw: Go to the grocery store and buy sustainable regionally-raised meat free of antibiotics or hormones and pay quite a bit. Or, do some of your own hunting or know hunters, buy as a group in bulk, search out great finds, etc. and raw can be pretty inexpensive. 

Kibble: Buy a kibble like Orijen or Fromm in medium-size bags which is top dollar in price. Or, buy a good value, simple kibble like NutriSource or Pro Pac (without the dozens of veggies and fruit and 5 different proteins) in large bags and feed at a modest cost.

You just have to know what your focus and goal is; then you can find a way to make it work.


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## Makovach

PDXdogmom said:


> Kibble: Buy a kibble like Orijen or Fromm in medium-size bags which is top dollar in price. Or, buy a good value, simple kibble like NutriSource or Pro Pac (without the dozens of veggies and fruit and 5 different proteins) in large bags and feed at a modest cost.
> 
> You just have to know what your focus and goal is; then you can find a way to make it work.


Just wanted to point out that there are many major differences in Orijen, Nurtisource and Pro-pac. You pay for what you get. 

But I get the jist of what you are saying.


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## PDXdogmom

Makovach said:


> Just wanted to point out that there are many major differences in Orijen, Nurtisource and Pro-pac. *You pay for what you get. *
> 
> But I get the jist of what you are saying.


Yes and no to a degree.

Is the chicken meal in Orijen of Fromm versus the chicken meal in NutriSource any higher quality? I don't think there is any way the general public knows for sure.

Does including 5 or more different meat proteins make a kibble better than 2 different proteins?

Does including "potato, peas, sweet potato, pea fiber, organic kelp, pumpkin, carrots, spinach, turnip greens, apples, cranberries, blueberries, licorice root, angelica root, fenugreek, marigold flowers, sweet fennel, peppermint leaf, chamomile, dandelion, and summer savory (Orijen Adult) make it a better kibble than one like NutriSource Grain Free Chicken which has only peas for veggies and no fruits? Or is that primarily marketing to humans? They both have chelated vitamins and probiotics. 

I will admit that the higher protein in something like Orijen (38%) should command a higher price than one like NutriSource Grain Free (28%); but for the difference in kibble price a person can save money by adding an egg or chunk of meat to the kibble if they believe their dog needs higher protein. Your statement of "you pay for what you get" might ring more true when comparing something like Orijen to some of the Pro Pac. Some people will pay a higher price for what a kibble does not include: such as corn gluten or brewer's rice.

So while overall I think that some portion of a higher kibble price may give you something better, I don't think that dollar per dollar that is 100% true.


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## Makovach

PDXdogmom said:


> Yes and no to a degree.
> 
> Is the chicken meal in Orijen of Fromm versus the chicken meal in NutriSource any higher quality? I don't think there is any way the general public knows for sure.
> 
> Does including 5 or more different meat proteins make a kibble better than 2 different proteins?
> 
> Does including "potato, peas, sweet potato, pea fiber, organic kelp, pumpkin, carrots, spinach, turnip greens, apples, cranberries, blueberries, licorice root, angelica root, fenugreek, marigold flowers, sweet fennel, peppermint leaf, chamomile, dandelion, and summer savory (Orijen Adult) make it a better kibble than one like NutriSource Grain Free Chicken which has only peas for veggies and no fruits? Or is that primarily marketing to humans? They both have chelated vitamins and probiotics.
> 
> I will admit that the higher protein in something like Orijen (38%) should command a higher price than one like NutriSource Grain Free (28%); but for the difference in kibble price a person can save money by adding an egg or chunk of meat to the kibble if they believe their dog needs higher protein. Your statement of "you pay for what you get" might ring more true when comparing something like Orijen to some of the Pro Pac. Some people will pay a higher price for what a kibble does not include: such as corn gluten or brewer's rice.
> 
> So while overall I think that some portion of a higher kibble price may give you something better, I don't think that dollar per dollar that is 100% true.


This is not the time, nor the place. All I'm going to say is this, I was just stating that there is a difference. I chose Orijen for my review because it is the only kibble I recommend.


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## InkedMarie

nlboz said:


> You are right, I am sorry. No one ever posts anything about raw in the kibble section. How dare I think it was okay to post a comment that did not bash anyone or anything. It just showed a different experience on how kibble works for my household better than raw. The post was titled cost of PMR vs Orijen. I feed Orijen and was showing a different example.


Considering the subject of this thread is "cost of feeding=PMR vs Orijen", I don't see why anyone made a comment. The original poster could have just talked about the cost of PMR but they did bring up Orijen so in my mind, ball's in the water.


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## xellil

InkedMarie said:


> Considering the subject of this thread is "cost of feeding=PMR vs Orijen", I don't see why anyone made a comment. The original poster could have just talked about the cost of PMR but they did bring up Orijen so in my mind, ball's in the water.


Baloney. She did it so she could show her complaining relatives she can feed PMR cheaper than dry food. By default, dry food has to be mentioned. There is no way she could have talked only about PMR.

The only way any ball is in the water is if someone has fed dry AND raw. Otherwise, it's just blather. Comparing my costs of dry to her costs of raw means nothing.


----------



## Makovach

InkedMarie said:


> Considering the subject of this thread is "cost of feeding=PMR vs Orijen", I don't see why anyone made a comment. The original poster could have just talked about the cost of PMR but they did bring up Orijen so in my mind, ball's in the water.


If you bothered to read the post, it was purely a comparison for my family and friends that try to say I could feed quality kibble for less than PMR. I said it was for MY house, not everyone in the world. 

In all due respect, if you can't stay on topic, please do not start stuff, I would like my thread to remain open.


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## InkedMarie

xellil said:


> Baloney. She did it so she could show her complaining relatives she can feed PMR cheaper than dry food. By default, dry food has to be mentioned. There is no way she could have talked only about PMR.
> 
> The only way any ball is in the water is if someone has fed dry AND raw. Otherwise, it's just blather. Comparing my costs of dry to her costs of raw means nothing.


I disagree but that doesn't matter anyway. I'd be curious to do a survey of what kibble raw feeders fed. Did they feed some crap food and then go to raw or did they feed a high quality kibble then go to raw? If the OP wanted to just talk about the cost of raw, that info could have been shared. I'm relatively new here but I know darn well that when you have a thread with the name this one is, you all know what's going to happen.


----------



## magicre

InkedMarie said:


> I disagree but that doesn't matter anyway. I'd be curious to do a survey of what kibble raw feeders fed. Did they feed some crap food and then go to raw or did they feed a high quality kibble then go to raw? If the OP wanted to just talk about the cost of raw, that info could have been shared. I'm relatively new here but I know darn well that when you have a thread with the name this one is, you all know what's going to happen.


with all due respect, i don't think she knew this would happen.

it was a comparison she could show to her family and friends, the nay sayers who were not supportive of what she was doing.


----------



## xellil

InkedMarie said:


> I disagree but that doesn't matter anyway. I'd be curious to do a survey of what kibble raw feeders fed. Did they feed some crap food and then go to raw or did they feed a high quality kibble then go to raw? If the OP wanted to just talk about the cost of raw, that info could have been shared. I'm relatively new here but I know darn well that when you have a thread with the name this one is, you all know what's going to happen.


you can disagree all you want and you'd still be wrong. 

The OP did NOT want to talk about the cost of raw. She wanted to talk about HER cost of raw vs HER cost of dry. Sheesh.

most people who feed raw don't care if it costs more. We do it for other reasons. The cost of dry is irrelevant because there is no way in hell we'd feed Orijen if it was two dollars a bag.

Makovich had a specific reason for wanting to get her relatives off her back.


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## Makovach

InkedMarie said:


> I disagree but that doesn't matter anyway. I'd be curious to do a survey of what kibble raw feeders fed. Did they feed some crap food and then go to raw or did they feed a high quality kibble then go to raw? If the OP wanted to just talk about the cost of raw, that info could have been shared. I'm relatively new here but I know darn well that when you have a thread with the name this one is, you all know what's going to happen.


It wouldn't happen if people would read and take the thread for what it was. 

No need for panties in bunches. I said flat out what this was for and why I used it and how it pertained to my household. I'm not talking about the cost of PMR. I am talking about the difference in cost of ME feeding Orijen to ME feeding PMR. The whole point was to COMPARE. To compare you have to have two things. You can not compare one thing to itself. For a better comparison, it is best to have reference with both. You can't compare how much better plants grow being waterd with milk than water if you never water the plan with the milk. AKA- if you have not fed raw, you have no frame of reference. I posted this here, because raw feeders, at some point, fed kibble. They HAVE frame of referance. It was not meant to open a big debate or argument. 

Please keep it civil. I don't want any further unneeded arguments.


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## Sprocket

InkedMarie said:


> I disagree but that doesn't matter anyway.* I'd be curious to do a survey of what kibble raw feeders fed.* Did they feed some crap food and then go to raw or did they feed a high quality kibble then go to raw? If the OP wanted to just talk about the cost of raw, that info could have been shared. I'm relatively new here but I know darn well that when you have a thread with the name this one is, you all know what's going to happen.


*http://dogfoodchat.com/forum/raw-feeding/16152-what-did-you-feed-before-pmr.html*


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## wolfsnaps88

Hi. I am adding my two cents now.

Melissa! Wow. go you girl! You took the time, you did...MATH? Ewww...lol. Anyways, I hope you did show them and shut them up about the cost of raw issue. 


Here is how I feel. Firstly, prices vary by region. I am jealous of Melissa's prices because I pay somewhat more than that. But then, this wasn't about everyone. This was about HER PERSONAL situation.

I think raw can be cheaper than kibble. I think you can also spend an arm and a leg on it. It just all depends on your situation. I know a certain bull terrier owner that raids certain garbage bins (I think thats what she does?) and gets the majority of her meats for free! So this subject is not set in stone as far as 'raw is cheaper than (high quality) kibble".

I think we as raw feeders are passionate about it so much that we can become defensive if anyone questions raw (whether it be on price, effectiveness on health, convenience, etc.).

We all feed raw for different reasons. There doesn't have to be an allergy or some other problem for people to decide raw is the superior choice. I just did it because it seemed more logical to me (and I am not going to defend it in Melissa's thread). 

We really should stop attacking each other. I mean, you all are VERY good at it. LOL. I sure wouldn't want any of you fine people against me on something. But, aren't we all here because we love our dogs? Nutrition is super important but we must agree to disagree. 


Peace, love, and beef ribs everyone


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## Dude and Bucks Mamma

Jacksons Mom said:


> This. Very interesting thread though and a great resource for anyone considering feeding raw.
> 
> I appreciate those passionate about feeding raw. I think it's AWESOME actually and I definitely believe it's probably ideal for most canines.
> 
> But to be honest? Jackson does really great eating what he does now. All the issues that people talk about that go away with raw feeding... he doesn't have. He's on a kibble and wet food diet and also has a very shiny coat, amazing muscles, a ton of energy, great breath and teeth (I do brush), great poop, zero to minimal eye boogers, why change a good thing? It would require a lot more on my part (to be honest, I don't really prepare any meat for myself. I'm in college, still living at home, and hardly cook for myself). When I fed him pre-made raw, I saw no real difference (maybe a bit less poop).
> 
> And anyone who says PMR is just as easy as kibble is lying. It's obviously not. Yes it can be made simple, but it's not going to be as simple as buy bag, scoop, pour. Not that easiest is always the best or ideal. But those dogs who do fine on kibble, and owners don't want to switch, I don't see a reason to. An unbalanced raw diet can be dangerous to a dog too IMO so I think it's important that an owner does a lot of research first before beginning. It's not as simple as throwing a raw piece of chicken down and there's the dogs meal (which I think is what a lot of people think of when they hear "raw" diet).


My collie did great on Pedigree. He was always wonderfully healthy with the exception of his teeth. He did very well on one of the crappiest foods out there but, to me, the fact that he is doing well on a processed, crappy diet is no excuse to keep feeding processed. If I am not going to feed myself processed foods because I know they are unhealthy then I am not going to do the same to my animals.

To me, feeding raw IS just as easy as feeding kibble. The actual feeding process consists of buy meat, put in fridge or freezer, take out of fridge/freezer, toss to dog. It really is that simple. What makes it so simple is that I don't have to research the company/ingredients/ingredient sources/processing practices/etc that I would if I fed kibble. And I don't have to keep watch for a kibble company changing ingredients. All in all, I found kibble feeding exhausting but raw is MUCH easier to me. Just because the actual process of sorting and what not might require more than opening a bag of kibble I do still find raw feeding, as a whole, to be much easier than kibble.

But, to be honest, convenience is not relevant for me. I knew that, when getting a dog, I would be "inconvenienced". I would need to make sure that I planned day trips around his bladder, have things chewed up during puppyhood, plan vacations around them whether they go or stay with someone I trust, spend money on them that could otherwise be spent on me, etc. So, to be honest, whether his diet is "convenient" or not is completely irrelevant. I knew that I would have to provide optimum nutrition for him and I am not going to allow convenience to decide it for me.

I just firmly believe that whole, natural foods will always be better for a living being that processed frankenfood whether it be dog, cat, human, horse, cow, rat, hamster, etc.


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## meggels

Fwiw, I do think it's interesting to compare case by case (persons household by household) on what the differences are in price.

Since each dog has different needs or limitations, we will all have different numbers across this forum, but I think it'd be neat to see. 



I have one of those dogs, Abbie, who does beautifully on kibble. But I'm still considering doing raw with her just because to me, it makes the most sense as far as "what s healthiest for her?"


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## PDXdogmom

Makovach said:


> This is not the time, nor the place. All I'm going to say is this, I was just stating that there is a difference. I chose Orijen for my review because it is the only kibble I recommend.


I am sorry that I misinterpreted your first post. I didn't realize that Orijen was the only kibble that you would consider (in the past for yourself) or for anyone else. Since that is the case, I think you very effectively made your point to the relatives regarding your situation and your choice of feeding raw and how the finances of it all makes sense.

For others who might consider a broader number of choices of acceptable kibble, then the cost statistics could skew differently.


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## magicre

PDXdogmom said:


> I am sorry that I misinterpreted your first post. I didn't realize that Orijen was the only kibble that you would consider (in the past for yourself) or for anyone else. Since that is the case, I think you very effectively made your point to the relatives regarding your situation and your choice of feeding raw and how the finances of it all makes sense.
> 
> For others who might consider a broader number of choices of acceptable kibble, then the cost statistics could skew differently.


that is true.....and that was the point of her thread, as i understood it. the comparison wasn't about kibble in general, but a certain variety of kibble that she would have fed compared to the raw feeding that she does feed. 

this was a tool to be used for people who feed kibble in her circle who believe she could not feed raw for less than what she could feed using a premium dog food.

if i were ever to feed kibble, i would also use a premium food such as orijen as long as my dogs tolerated it....as a standard....or choice.


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## bridget246

PDXdogmom said:


> I am sorry that I misinterpreted your first post. I didn't realize that Orijen was the only kibble that you would consider (in the past for yourself) or for anyone else. Since that is the case, I think you very effectively made your point to the relatives regarding your situation and your choice of feeding raw and how the finances of it all makes sense.
> 
> For others who might consider a broader number of choices of acceptable kibble, then the cost statistics could skew differently.


On the same token if one wished to feed cheaper raw foods it would still turn out to be cheaper than kibble. I've found chicken backs as low as 38 cents a pound which is really hard to beat with cheap kibble. Free items are often grabbed off craigslist. Raw has the potential to be cheaper than kibble if one is willing to invest in finding good resources. With kibble your stuck with the luck of finding a sale and that doesn't even bring you close to getting free meat that some raw feeders find often.

Earlier I read a comment about raw needing supplements and that had to be added to the price. Anything I would supplement kibble with I would also add to raw. Only with raw I wouldn't use as much supplements as the meat takes care of a lot of it for me. The biggest issue being the teeth and we aren't even going to get into the cost of professional cleaning.


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## mischiefgrrl

I can't compare costs with Orijen because I've never bought it but I would also add to the total in savings the amount I paid in vet bills before switching to PMR for Tanis' skin conditions. Since the switch to PMR the only visits we've had were checkups and nail clippings. 

My two are fed primarily chicken with beef heart every couple of days, beef and pork organs a couple of times a week. I think I spend about $40-$60 a month.


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## Caty M

Jacksons Mom said:


> Out of pure curiosity, since I am relatively, admittedly, unknowledgeable when it comes to raw feeding in the likes of PMR .... for those of you who have active 16lb or so dogs... I'd be curious how much you feed.
> 
> I pay around $16.99 for a 5.5lb of Acana grainfree and that will last us a little over a month for one dog (at 2/3 cup per day). He also gets one can a week of Weruva (the smaller can) and that runs $1.37 per can (from the site I order from) so that's about $5.48 per month in cans. So that's $22.47 per month approx (since the dry lasts a bit longer than a month) to feed one 16lb dog. Would it be possible to feed PMR staying around this price?
> 
> I know when I priced pre-made, like Primal, it was definitely a lot more. I think a 4lb bag of Primal chicken was around $24 and contains 64 nuggets. He would need 5 or 6 nuggets per day according to calculators. So that's 42 nuggets per week? did I do my math right?


I live in Canada so my prices are going to be considerably higher than yours, but, I will try to do a comparison! I have an 18lb active dog with an average metabolism. I can buy enough chicken carcasses, beef heart, fish, pork for him per month (about 10 pounds per month) for about $20. In reality it's going to be less because I started buying whole chickens, cutting off the breast and thigh for us, and feeding the rest to the dogs and supplementing with boneless meat. That actually saves us money as buying whole chickens is cheaper than buying prepackaged breasts, let alone all the extras we get!  A small bag (5-6lb) of Acana here is around $27 so assuming he eats one of them a month I am a little bit ahead. I don't really buy bulk meat, and I do sometimes splurge on more expensive proteins or if I am too lazy to thaw something out I will get more expensive things like ground beef, lamb, etc from the store. As anything it can be done as cheap or expensive. 

My 10lb dog eats more than twice what he eats, so it totally depends on the dog's metabolism, but 1 bag every 1.5 months doesn't sound like he has an insanely high metabolism or anything.


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## Caty M

Oh, also, I don't spend a whole lot of time prepping. I do cut up the chickens, but even if I didn't have dogs I'd be doing that to save money for us!  Other than those, I spend maybe an hour a month, probably less, cutting up things like roasts, it's not bad. The cats require a lot more time because they are picky little things.


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## riddick4811

You know I keep reading about the cost of dental, yet I've never but one time in my life had a dental on a dog and that was b/c he was 9 yrs old when I got him and had bad teeth. None of my dogs have ever needed a dental b/c IMO, part of owning a dog is caring for the teeth so when I do weekly grooming I clean ears and teeth and clip toe nails. Even on all raw, I still had to clean my dogs teeth weekly w/ a scaler, especially the canines on my Greyhounds. Not arguing that raw isn't better, but just saying with proper care, I don't understand why so many people's dog needed dentals before raw. And cleaning the teeth takes usually no more than a minute or 2, so not like it takes a lot of time. 

When I get foster dogs w/ plaque on their teeth, I just scale them myself w/ a dental scaler. Unless a tooth needs to be removed, scaling teeth isn't that hard. No need to spend money on a dental. 

And even people here have complimented my dogs teeth!


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## InkedMarie

riddick4811 said:


> You know I keep reading about the cost of dental, yet I've never but one time in my life had a dental on a dog and that was b/c he was 9 yrs old when I got him and had bad teeth. None of my dogs have ever needed a dental b/c IMO, part of owning a dog is caring for the teeth so when I do weekly grooming I clean ears and teeth and clip toe nails. Even on all raw, I still had to clean my dogs teeth weekly w/ a scaler, especially the canines on my Greyhounds. Not arguing that raw isn't better, but just saying with proper care, I don't understand why so many people's dog needed dentals before raw. And cleaning the teeth takes usually no more than a minute or 2, so not like it takes a lot of time.
> 
> When I get foster dogs w/ plaque on their teeth, I just scale them myself w/ a dental scaler. Unless a tooth needs to be removed, scaling teeth isn't that hard. No need to spend money on a dental.
> 
> And even people here have complimented my dogs teeth!


My pbgv had his holistic vet visit on Friday, she asked when he had his dental (been a year since he's seen her). I told her, he hasn't had one, I just started adding more bones for him to gnaw. That made my day (no, he's not raw fed, half Honest Kitchen, half kibble).


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## DaViking

riddick4811 said:


> You know I keep reading about the cost of dental, yet I've never but one time in my life had a dental on a dog and that was b/c he was 9 yrs old when I got him and had bad teeth. None of my dogs have ever needed a dental b/c IMO, part of owning a dog is caring for the teeth so when I do weekly grooming I clean ears and teeth and clip toe nails. Even on all raw, I still had to clean my dogs teeth weekly w/ a scaler, especially the canines on my Greyhounds. Not arguing that raw isn't better, but just saying with proper care, I don't understand why so many people's dog needed dentals before raw. And cleaning the teeth takes usually no more than a minute or 2, so not like it takes a lot of time.
> 
> When I get foster dogs w/ plaque on their teeth, I just scale them myself w/ a dental scaler. Unless a tooth needs to be removed, scaling teeth isn't that hard. No need to spend money on a dental.
> 
> And even people here have complimented my dogs teeth!


I second this. I have never had any serious teeth issues with any of my dogs. I us a dbl sided brush and clean their teeth once a week or so. Well chewed hard nylabones work well too in grinding off buildup. Also, feeding kibble doesn't mean you can't throw the dog a bone... Bottom line, with proper care you will avoid most issues. Throwing them some Dog Chow before and after "alone in backyard all day time" will probably lead to issues.


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## tem_sat

DaViking said:


> I second this. I have never had any serious teeth issues with any of my dogs. I us a dbl sided brush and clean their teeth once a week or so. Well chewed hard nylabones work well too in grinding off buildup. Also, feeding kibble doesn't mean you can't throw the dog a bone... Bottom line, with proper care you will avoid most issues. Throwing them some Dog Chow before and after "alone in backyard all day time" will probably lead to issues.


I will be happy to tell you what I *tried* to do to avoid multiple dentals. Daily, religious brushing did not do it while on a combo of Acana + chicken wings. Those of us with small dogs really have a hard time keeping teeth clean. I am sure there are those who are genetically lucky, however, I speak from experience and can say that I *still* brush daily to keep up with my Doxie's teeth. I would not use a scaler due to risk of causing more harm than good, however, if it works for you (riddick4811), then that's fine.


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## Sprocket

IMO brushing, scaling and scraping IS your dog getting a dental, just not by your vet.

You simply cannot say your dog doesn't get a dental when you ARE giving them a dental. LOL

Glad those bones take care of all that work for me :wink:


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## PDXdogmom

InkedMarie said:


> My pbgv had his holistic vet visit on Friday, she asked when he had his dental (been a year since he's seen her). I told her, he hasn't had one, I just started adding more bones for him to gnaw. That made my day (no, he's not raw fed, half Honest Kitchen, half kibble).


I'm very much on the same page with my dogs. I've never paid the outrageous fees for dental cleaning at a vets - no need to. I also have never brushed my dogs teeth. One is 11 yrs. and the other is almost 5 yrs. They eat kibble, home-cooking and chew on bones. I attribute the bone-chewing to taking care of things.


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## xellil

tem_sat said:


> I will be happy to tell you what I *tried* to do to avoid multiple dentals. Daily, religious brushing did not do it while on a combo of Acana + chicken wings. Those of us with small dogs really have a hard time keeping teeth clean. I am sure there are those who are genetically lucky, however, I speak from experience and can say that I *still* brush daily to keep up with my Doxie's teeth. I would not use a scaler due to risk of causing more harm than good, however, if it works for you (riddick4811), then that's fine.


You are right because little dogs have little mouths with a bunch of teeth crammed in there. They are much more prone to dental disease than large dogs. 

I also think alot of small breeds have the reputation for getting heart disease when in reality it's bad teeth that causes it. Donnaa Little has seen alot more small dogs than me and I bet she would agree that as they older none of them escape bad teeth if not properly taken care of. 

My larger dogs, in the past, rarely or never got dentals and they didn't get heart disease, but they did get bones. I don't think I could follow that same course with a dachshund and expect good results.


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## InkedMarie

Sprocket said:


> IMO brushing, scaling and scraping IS your dog getting a dental, just not by your vet.
> 
> You simply cannot say your dog doesn't get a dental when you ARE giving them a dental. LOL
> 
> Glad those bones take care of all that work for me :wink:


I am not someone working in the veterinary field but I've been told by those that do that a proper dental can only be done if the dog has anesthesia, that you can't get under the gumline with an awake patient.


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## magicre

riddick4811 said:


> You know I keep reading about the cost of dental, yet I've never but one time in my life had a dental on a dog and that was b/c he was 9 yrs old when I got him and had bad teeth. None of my dogs have ever needed a dental b/c IMO, part of owning a dog is caring for the teeth so when I do weekly grooming I clean ears and teeth and clip toe nails. Even on all raw, I still had to clean my dogs teeth weekly w/ a scaler, especially the canines on my Greyhounds. Not arguing that raw isn't better, but just saying with proper care, I don't understand why so many people's dog needed dentals before raw. And cleaning the teeth takes usually no more than a minute or 2, so not like it takes a lot of time.
> 
> When I get foster dogs w/ plaque on their teeth, I just scale them myself w/ a dental scaler. Unless a tooth needs to be removed, scaling teeth isn't that hard. No need to spend money on a dental.
> 
> And even people here have complimented my dogs teeth!


i think you might be, along with other people who frequent or visit forums such as these, the exception, not the rule. and that, i believe, is true for both raw and kibble fed dogs.

i do think there are way too many people who do not scale or brush or give enough thought to the dentition of their dogs....so maybe that is why so many dogs need dental....

but the dogs of this forum are very fortunate to have caring owners.

i know my vet is always going on about the terrible teeth of both cats and dogs and tries to get people to pay more attention.

granted, that is a very tiny populace to even say it's a general truth, but with all of the articles i read about teeth....i am thinking it is a problem.

i will say that tom lonsdale is a vet who specialises in canine tooth and gum disease and that was his reason for feeding raw as a measure to take care of dog teeth..

many products are on the market now that will clean a dog's teeth.

for me, i was very ignorant about taking care of their teeth and just thought it a normal part of the caretaking of a dog, to get dentals.

whilst it may not be a parameter now, it was for me and many people.

which may well explain why raw feeders include the benefit of feeding raw as a dental benefit.

i think that anyone who takes care of their dogs' teeth is to be commended, regardless of what's being fed.


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## Sprocket

InkedMarie said:


> I am not someone working in the veterinary field but I've been told by those that do that a proper dental can only be done if the dog has anesthesia, that you can't get under the gumline with an awake patient.


There is a local woman here who does dentals without anesthesia. 

It's a good alternative for owners who don't want to put there dog under to get their teeth cleaned.


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## InkedMarie

Sprocket said:


> There is a local woman here who does dentals without anesthesia.
> 
> It's a good alternative for owners who don't want to put there dog under to get their teeth cleaned.


I know people do that, I was just saying that I've been told by vets and vet techs that you can't do a proper, thorough cleaning without anesthesia. I don't know if you can or can't, I brush my dogs teeth, give them bones & knock on wood, my almost 2yr old brittany hasn't needed a dental yet and my 6yr old pbgv has needed one. Now, I've also had smooth fox terriers and shelties and I can't say that about them!


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## xellil

InkedMarie said:


> I know people do that, I was just saying that I've been told by vets and vet techs that you can't do a proper, thorough cleaning without anesthesia. I don't know if you can or can't, I brush my dogs teeth, give them bones & knock on wood, my almost 2yr old brittany hasn't needed a dental yet and my 6yr old pbgv has needed one. Now, I've also had smooth fox terriers and shelties and I can't say that about them!


Who stands to gain from getting people to believe that? The vets and tech techs who tell patients that. The same vets who tell patients they need Science Diet, which is also a financial gain for those giving the advice.

I just had a "dental" because I haven't taken proper care of my teeth and they needed to get under the gumline. I had to get local anesthesia. For a regular cleaning, that's not needed.

I don't know whether this woman gets under the gumline or not, and if so how she can do it without deadening something. BUT, it all depends on your definition of dental, and whether there is gum disease in addition to teeth cleaning. I certainly believe people can clean their dogs' teeth without anesthesia.

Our problem is we've come to accept teeth/gum cleaning under anesthesia as just part of regular maintenance for our dogs. I no longer believe that's the case.

AND i wonder how many vets do a "dental" under anesthesia for dogs who only need a good teeth cleaning and have no gum involvement.


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## _unoriginal

I didn't read most of this thread but based simply off the OP and the thread title, I wanted to say something..

I may or may not spend as much as Orijen costs but my reasoning for being on raw go so much deeper than just cost. Whether it costs more or less, this is where I'm planning on staying because IMO raw is much healthier than any processed kibble available anywhere. Again this is just my opinion but if I were spending more per month, I'd still be feeding raw. I was feeding TOTW which is obviously much cheaper than Orijen and now sometimes I'm spending $10+ per month more to feed my dog. I'm assuming that number will only grow as I try to incorporate more exotic meats into Bentley's diet.

Bottom line, cost doesn't play as big of a role for me as the overall health of my dog.


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## PDXdogmom

xellil said:


> Who stands to gain from getting people to believe that? The vets and tech techs who tell patients that. The same vets who tell patients they need Science Diet, which is also a financial gain for those giving the advice.
> 
> I just had a "dental" because I haven't taken proper care of my teeth and they needed to get under the gumline. I had to get local anesthesia. For a regular cleaning, that's not needed.
> 
> I don't know whether this woman gets under the gumline or not, and if so how she can do it without deadening something. BUT, it all depends on your definition of dental, and whether there is gum disease in addition to teeth cleaning. I certainly believe people can clean their dogs' teeth without anesthesia.
> 
> Our problem is we've come to accept teeth/gum cleaning under anesthesia as just part of regular maintenance for our dogs. I no longer believe that's the case.
> 
> AND i wonder how many vets do a "dental" under anesthesia for dogs who only need a good teeth cleaning and have no gum involvement.


I totally agree. There are so many tests and procedures you're pushed to have at the vets these days that were never considered necessary a decade or two ago.


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## Unosmom

to OP, do you feed anything other than whats on the list? 

I stopped feeding raw full time because I could not afford anything more then chicken or turkey, since Uno can't tolerate pork, his coat became really dull and dry due to lack of omega 3's. Right now he's eating a rotation of grain free dry foods and I substitute it with raw for evening meals 4-5 days a week. At least with kibble, he's able to get a much wider range of proteins including fish and lamb which I simply cannot afford in raw form. Once deer season rolls around, I should be able to get a bunch of venison from processing plants. 

It may not be for everyone, but it works for us.


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## Makovach

_unoriginal said:


> I didn't read most of this thread but based simply off the OP and the thread title, I wanted to say something..
> 
> I may or may not spend as much as Orijen costs but my reasoning for being on raw go so much deeper than just cost. Whether it costs more or less, this is where I'm planning on staying because IMO raw is much healthier than any processed kibble available anywhere. Again this is just my opinion but if I were spending more per month, I'd still be feeding raw. I was feeding TOTW which is obviously much cheaper than Orijen and now sometimes I'm spending $10+ per month more to feed my dog. I'm assuming that number will only grow as I try to incorporate more exotic meats into Bentley's diet.
> 
> Bottom line, cost doesn't play as big of a role for me as the overall health of my dog.


I agree! I wouldn't care if it cost me twice as much as feeding Orijen. But I had to prove the haters wrong!


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## Makovach

Unosmom said:


> to OP, do you feed anything other than whats on the list?
> 
> I stopped feeding raw full time because I could not afford anything more then chicken or turkey, since Uno can't tolerate pork, his coat became really dull and dry due to lack of omega 3's. Right now he's eating a rotation of grain free dry foods and I substitute it with raw for evening meals 4-5 days a week. At least with kibble, he's able to get a much wider range of proteins including fish and lamb which I simply cannot afford in raw form. Once deer season rolls around, I should be able to get a bunch of venison from processing plants.
> 
> It may not be for everyone, but it works for us.


At the moment, Annie is starting beef heart, Nalah and Tucker as still transitioning to Pork heart. Once we get further into our transition, they will have rabbit, duck, goose, eggs, lamb, goat, venison, bison and anything I can get my hands on!


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## _unoriginal

Makovach said:


> I agree! I wouldn't care if it cost me twice as much as feeding Orijen. But I had to prove the haters wrong!


I know. And you did a good job of it.. I wish I had the patience to calculate it out.. But I don't so I just say..


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## magicre

Unosmom said:


> to OP, do you feed anything other than whats on the list?
> 
> I stopped feeding raw full time because I could not afford anything more then chicken or turkey, since Uno can't tolerate pork, his coat became really dull and dry due to lack of omega 3's. Right now he's eating a rotation of grain free dry foods and I substitute it with raw for evening meals 4-5 days a week. At least with kibble, he's able to get a much wider range of proteins including fish and lamb which I simply cannot afford in raw form. Once deer season rolls around, I should be able to get a bunch of venison from processing plants.
> 
> It may not be for everyone, but it works for us.


if you cannot get red meats for your dog, then i think you are doing what is best for you and the dog. 

at the end of the day, whilst i don't want to address convenience, i would address finances.

we do what we can afford to do.....and still sleep at night.

without red meats, ever...chicken and turkey will take its toll..and you recognised that. and, in the fall, you'll be giving uno venision.

when makovach decided to go raw, she had two dogs, now three. and a budget, which most of us have.

she's figured out a way to get the nutrients into her dogs and stay within budget.

not everyone can do that.....

her comparison chart was more for those who think she cannot afford to feed raw.

and uno looks magnificent, btw.


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