# So... you don't make your food and have to contract with another production facility-



## kevin bradley (Aug 9, 2009)

...to produce your food, how much control do you have over what happens to your food? I have a bunch of questions...

1. Say one of these Comanufacturers really destroys your brand thru some horrendous food issue, what recourse do you have? 

2. Can you drop into the facility anytime you want to see whats going on...to do your own audit? 

3. How do you know they are staying true to the ingredient profile you've outlined contractually? IE-what if you find out the protein levels aren't within the agreed upon numbers?

4. I guess, just overall, how do you "keep an eye on things?"

I know we have Tim and some ardent supporters out here(not a jab, we just do) so this question might work well for them. However, I think we also have some others familiar with the industry and process associated with it. Really curious how the entire contractual thing works with developing your own Dog food and having someone else make it for you.

Note-I'm not planning on making food.


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## monster'sdad (Jul 29, 2012)

kevin bradley said:


> ...to produce your food, how much control do you have over what happens to your food? I have a bunch of questions...
> 
> 1. Say one of these Comanufacturers really destroys your brand thru some horrendous food issue, what recourse do you have?
> 
> ...


You can sue and yes the other things happen.

These are the reasons why I prefer foods made by a co-packer. I know it sounds counterintutive to some but there is a natural tension when you have someone else making a food that keeps them honest, both parties actually. Both are always making sure the other isn't going to ruin them. Customers of facilties do talk to each other about how the plant is performing which is another check and balance. 

In the case of Diamond, well, you have a different dynamic. All the companies that use Diamond have no choice because they are pretty large. They knew it was just a matter of time before a recall, and if they didn't they are just plain stupid. 

The nature of your questions suggests that there may be less quality control than in a company-owned facility but the opposite is true. Secrets are better kept when the only food made there is yours and there are no third parties asking questions.

It comes down to there are good companies and bad companies.


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## dr tim (Mar 27, 2011)

1. Say one of these Comanufacturers really destroys your brand thru some horrendous food issue, what recourse do you have? *This actually happened to me but was not a recall issue. You move onto another plant.*

2. Can you drop into the facility anytime you want to see whats going on...to do your own audit? *Yes you can if they are any good. If they do not, do not use them.*

3. How do you know they are staying true to the ingredient profile you've outlined contractually? IE-what if you find out the protein levels aren't within the agreed upon numbers? Run your own tests to make sure. Level of trust is a huge key and very hard to find, IMO.

4. I guess, just overall, how do you "keep an eye on things?" *Visits, phone calls, tests. I used 5 plants before I settled on the one we are at now and will be staying at. What a learning experience that was.*


I know we have Tim and some ardent supporters out here(not a jab, we just do) so this question might work well for them. However, I think we also have some others familiar with the industry and process associated with it. Really curious how the entire contractual thing works with developing your own Dog food and having someone else make it for you.

Note-I'm not planning on making food.


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## kevin bradley (Aug 9, 2009)

thanks Tim. I find the topic(not to sound boastful because I picked it) really interesting. We are being bombarded with new foods every day and I'd say most of them are made at a few plants around the country. I could have shortened up my topic... "How do you know they are doing what you want them to do"... but you get it. 

I know Monster thinks it can be an advantage. Thats a loaded discussion and I would could get into many different aspects of it.

Actually I think it would be a shame to work your butt off to build a brand and have it impacted negatively by an outside producer. You are right, it takes lots of trust.


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## dr tim (Mar 27, 2011)

And easily destroyed because the plant changes ingredients on you due to market pricing. There are many levels of chicken meal, for example, and a change can be a huge impact.

We have produced in Canada, USA and Europe. Always a learning curve.


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## monster'sdad (Jul 29, 2012)

It is better in my experience. Just because a company owns its own plant doesn't mean it cares more or makes a better food. 

Secrets stay hidden when the customers are retail and not guys like Tim Hunt.

The Diamond example is unusual because Canidae, for example, has little choice. Diamond has three big factories and is the only company that can make millions of tons of food across the country.

Just imagine if Dr. Tim's was made at Fromm. Could they have kept the fact they gave up EU Certification a secret? No.

They sure as hell didn't tell the retail customers.

Don't get sucked into the 'we have our own plant". Midwestern Pet Foods has several and doesn't produce for anyone else. Why do you suppose that is? Think about it.


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## kevin bradley (Aug 9, 2009)

Monster,

I'd be cautious... you seem to walk the line of inferring that using your own plant is nearly a NEGATIVE. 

I'm open to the belief that you don't necessarily have to own your own plant to make quality food. Tim seems to have a nice food and doesn't own his plant. However, I find it disingenuous to say that it wouldn't at least be some benefit to own your plant, oversee the hiring of everyone that touches the food, directly mandate all quality control processes.... and to be able to walk into your plant every day, even if just to show your face symbolically. Sure, you have contracts with 3rd parties but come on!... I think its crazy to say there aren't at least SOME advantages to having your own plant.


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## monster'sdad (Jul 29, 2012)

kevin bradley said:


> Monster,
> 
> I'd be cautious... you seem to walk the line of inferring that using your own plant is nearly a NEGATIVE.
> 
> I'm open to the belief that you don't necessarily have to own your own plant to make quality food. Tim seems to have a nice food and doesn't own his plant. However, I find it disingenuous to say that it wouldn't at least be some benefit to own your plant, oversee the hiring of everyone that touches the food, directly mandate all quality control processes.... and to be able to walk into your plant every day, even if just to show your face symbolically. Sure, you have contracts with 3rd parties but come on!... I think its crazy to say there aren't at least SOME advantages to having your own plant.


You are using faulty logic. You assume that companies with their own plant are 1) Capable and 2) Honest. This is how some companies market and people swallow the hook. Fromm for example. How would any retail customer know if Fromm started to cut corners? The guys at Red Paw would (they use Fromm) because that is their business. 

I don't need to be cautious I know what I said. As a retail customer I have no idea what goes on at a plant and no way of finding out. When everyone is employed by the same company, bad news stays hidden. There are some I trust and many I don't. I prefer having two unrelated and somewhat opposing parties involved. If I ever had a problem with Pursuit and called Tim to complain, the first thing he would do is call Ohio Pet and start asking questions. If you call Fromm, some customer service person will take down some information, apologize and get right back on Facebook to chat with his or her friends. Your complaint will never get beyond the bounds of a Fromm employee, and that is the risk.

The only advantage would be how long it takes to introduce new products and scheduling production and that is all.


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## PDXdogmom (Jun 30, 2010)

I think that companies that own their own plant and make only their own food have the potential to be much better OR much worse than a large company that co-manufactures for a number of brands. 

I live in a city that attracts a lot of smaller independent businesses dealing with food (human), coffee beans, furniture, etc. For the most, they tend to produce a better quality product but often at a somewhat higher cost. Their livelihoods depend on their product being produced with high standards and a continued good track record. There is nothing to fall back on financially if their product doesn't measure up. They tend to have a real sense of pride in their business at all levels. There are exceptions of course.


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## kevin bradley (Aug 9, 2009)

Fair points guys.

I'd like to see a recall history of comanufactured foods vs. non comanufactured foods.


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## bett (Mar 15, 2012)

monster'sdad said:


> You are using faulty logic. You assume that companies with their own plant are 1) Capable and 2) Honest. This is how some companies market and people swallow the hook. Fromm for example. How would any retail customer know if Fromm started to cut corners? The guys at Red Paw would (they use Fromm) because that is their business.
> 
> I don't need to be cautious I know what I said. As a retail customer I have no idea what goes on at a plant and no way of finding out. When everyone is employed by the same company, bad news stays hidden. There are some I trust and many I don't. I prefer having two unrelated and somewhat opposing parties involved. If I ever had a problem with Pursuit and called Tim to complain, the first thing he would do is call Ohio Pet and start asking questions. If you call Fromm, some customer service person will take down some information, apologize and get right back on Facebook to chat with his or her friends. Your complaint will never get beyond the bounds of a Fromm employee, and that is the risk.
> 
> The only advantage would be how long it takes to introduce new products and scheduling production and that is all.


i'm not sure fromm was a good example to use. they've never had a recall and since i had such doings with diamond i did call them. and email them. they called me back and we spoke at length-about many different things. as it turned out, i switched from fromm to something else but certainly NOT because of their customer service.


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## Kibblelady (Jul 13, 2012)

Ohio Pet Foods have never had any of the products they produce recalled. Some of the foods they make are: Life's Abundance, Blackwood, Annamaet, dr Tim's, regal, Dave's simply the best, and some others. This plant is pricier to contract due to their quality and QA so there are not as many foods as other plants. All they produce are very effective and highly digestable.


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