# Limiting RMBs



## TuckersMom (Apr 27, 2011)

I am not entirely comfortable feeding Tucker RMBs since his constipation issue. What finally came out was a very large piece of bone and I think it was obstructing him. He's been fine since he passed that. I haven't given any bones since.

If I'm only going to be giving him RMBs now and then, do I need to give him anything to compensate for vitamins/minerals he will not be getting from bone? This leads to another question, I know the bones are good for keeping teeth clean, breath fresh, building jaw muscles, etc., but are there other benefits in addition to those which are usually the benefits mentioned? For instance, do dogs get their calcium or vitamins from bones?

Thank you all for helping educate someone who doesn't know much about dog nutrition or handling raw meat. I know I've been asking A LOT of questions :smile:


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## Ania's Mommy (Feb 8, 2009)

Absolutely they need bones. For calcium mostly, but there are vitamins/minerals that are essential. If you are not feeding bone in some form (ground, smashed, or whole), the diet is not complete. 

Also, if you're not feeding any bone, you may be sitting on a ticking time bomb, as too little bone usually results in cannon butt.

I would REALLY urge your to work on your fears and feed whole bones. But until then, you might try grinding bones to feed.


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## Northwoods10 (Nov 22, 2010)

Tucker is new to raw correct? 

Its a pretty common thing to see pieces or chunks of undigested bone pass through them when they first start out. Its nothing to worry about. 

What types of bones are you feeding and is he chewing them up well or is he gulping them?


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## Tobi (Mar 18, 2011)

He may have simply had too much bone, and it may have just gotten rushed through, I've never experienced this, and we give sometimes full bone meals (pork femur, with tons of marrow inside) and i've only seen itty bitty bone shards. Richelle is right he will be missing vital nutrients if he's not getting bone, you can compensate but it to me isn't proper. Dogs are meant to handle it he passed it as he would have no matter what he will learn that he needs to chew better over time. Cannon butt is inevitable if you're only feeding boneless meats, and then on top of it you will see it faster when you start to give organs... it will just pass right through.


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## TuckersMom (Apr 27, 2011)

Ania's Mommy said:


> Absolutely they need bones. For calcium mostly, but there are vitamins/minerals that are essential. If you are not feeding bone in some form (ground, smashed, or whole), the diet is not complete.
> 
> Also, if you're not feeding any bone, you may be sitting on a ticking time bomb, as too little bone usually results in cannon butt.
> 
> I would REALLY urge your to work on your fears and feed whole bones. But until then, you might try grinding bones to feed.


I agree that I need to work through my fears with whole bones, but in the meantime, what can I give him to compensate for not getting all the bone? Calcium carbonate powder? If so, how do I determine how much to give him? 

I would like to grind the bone, but my husband doesn't want me to buy a grinder because we have no place to keep it


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

TuckersMom said:


> I am not entirely comfortable feeding Tucker RMBs since his constipation issue. What finally came out was a very large piece of bone and I think it was obstructing him. He's been fine since he passed that. I haven't given any bones since.
> 
> If I'm only going to be giving him RMBs now and then, do I need to give him anything to compensate for vitamins/minerals he will not be getting from bone? This leads to another question, I know the bones are good for keeping teeth clean, breath fresh, building jaw muscles, etc., but are there other benefits in addition to those which are usually the benefits mentioned? For instance, do dogs get their calcium or vitamins from bones?
> 
> Thank you all for helping educate someone who doesn't know much about dog nutrition or handling raw meat. I know I've been asking A LOT of questions :smile:


i bet if we took a poll....no one was entirely comfortable feeding that first bone....fascinated, morbid curiousity, lots of feelings, but i know, for me, i had heart failure every feeding for the first three months. ask the members of this board. i was a basket case.....

i think my husband only came home because he had nowhere else to go....i know he wanted to change his phone number...that's how nuts many of us get. IN THE BEGINNING.

i saw a shard of bone coming out of malia's behind and i knew, just knew i had killed her....when i gave her cannon butt from feeding too much, i cried, thinking how will i explain to my honey that i just killed his dog....

the people on this board held my hand just as we will hold yours...and don't think i didn't know y'all were laughing behind my back, to my face, along with me.....

here's the thing, though...no matter how afraid you are...think about what's best for your dog, not your blood pressure....

rmb - that's what is best.

in the beginning, your dog is either going to be too loose or too hard or even constipated or diarrhea...it's transition..... the first three months is a good time to start drinking or taking anti anxieties or getting daily massages....

the second three months, you'll start to breathe, and by the time a year has passed, you'll be an old pro laughing at yourself for your beginning reactions.....we'll all laugh together....


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## Northwoods10 (Nov 22, 2010)

TuckersMom said:


> I agree that I need to work through my fears with whole bones, but in the meantime, what can I give him to compensate for not getting all the bone? Calcium carbonate powder? If so, how do I determine how much to give him?
> 
> I would like to grind the bone, but my husband doesn't want me to buy a grinder because we have no place to keep it


What about smashing them up a bit with a hammer or mallet before feeding? That way they are already broken up but he still gets the benefits of chewing them and you don't need to worry about supplementing?


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## TuckersMom (Apr 27, 2011)

Northwoods10 said:


> Tucker is new to raw correct?
> 
> Its a pretty common thing to see pieces or chunks of undigested bone pass through them when they first start out. Its nothing to worry about.
> 
> What types of bones are you feeding and is he chewing them up well or is he gulping them?


 Tucker has been on raw about a month. The problem I have is that the chunk of bone caused him to be constipated - I could tell that something was wrong with him. He was not doing well. After he passed it (after giving him The Honest Kitchen dehydrated "raw" food), he was fine.

He has gotten chicken legs and wings. He had been eating the leg and was chewing really good. Then he got to the other half and seemed to just chew a few times and then gulp it down. In the past (before raw), he has seemed to have some throat issues. Sometimes his breathing will be rattly and sometimes he acts like he's having a hard time breathing (this is rare). It sounds like phlem is causing him problems, but I don't know for sure.


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## TuckersMom (Apr 27, 2011)

Northwoods10 said:


> What about smashing them up a bit with a hammer or mallet before feeding? That way they are already broken up but he still gets the benefits of chewing them and you don't need to worry about supplementing?


 That's a good idea. It won't create sharp edges of broken bone?


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## Northwoods10 (Nov 22, 2010)

TuckersMom said:


> That's a good idea. It won't create sharp edges of broken bone?


Not if your smashing something up thats already covered in a good amount of meat.

ETA: You aren't wanting to "emulsify" the bone, but just break it up a bit so that its already done for him. You really don't need to do this, but if it calms your fears a little that is what I would suggest.


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## TuckersMom (Apr 27, 2011)

magicre said:


> i bet if we took a poll....no one was entirely comfortable feeding that first bone....fascinated, morbid curiousity, lots of feelings, but i know, for me, i had heart failure every feeding for the first three months. ask the members of this board. i was a basket case.....
> 
> i think my husband only came home because he had nowhere else to go....i know he wanted to change his phone number...that's how nuts many of us get. IN THE BEGINNING.
> 
> ...


 Thank you for this very nice note of encouragement and support. After this incident, I am feeling just like you did. If I ever did anything to cause Tucker harm, I would just die.


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## TuckersMom (Apr 27, 2011)

Northwoods10 said:


> Not if your smashing something up thats already covered in a good amount of meat.


 So wings and legs would be okay to smash?


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## DaneMama (Jun 27, 2008)

Yes they are fine to smash. You will have to smash them really well and you'll build up nice muscle in your smashing arm! But I agree with the others, I think it's best to let Tucker eat the RMBs naturally and let him learn to eat the way he's supposed to. Since he's a month into the process it would be a huge step backwards to smash everything for him. Let his body adjust naturally and allow him to learn. 

I don't think anyone here would be able to help you how to add supplements like calcium to his diet to make up for lost minerals and vitamins if you do limit his RMBs. I highly discourage this for health and nutritional reasons.


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## luvMyBRT (Mar 8, 2010)

I too agree that you just try to let him eat the whole RMB as he normally would. If it makes you feel better you can smash it for a while to help his digestive system get used to digesting raw bones as well as to help him learn how to chew up the bone.

Duncan can not eat many RMBs do to a health condition. I do a modified barf/home cooked diet for him. I add calcium to his diet regularly. I used ground up eggshells. I rinse the shells and let them dry over night. I then use my coffee grinder to grind them into a powder. You want to add 900 milligrams (approx. 1/2 tsp) of calcium per pound of food.

However, I am sure that Tucker will do great with eating his RMB. And, let me tell you this.....it is SO much easier to just throw them a RMB then to have to mess with calcium supplements! :smile:


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

TuckersMom said:


> Thank you for this very nice note of encouragement and support. After this incident, I am feeling just like you did. If I ever did anything to cause Tucker harm, I would just die.


believe me, i understand...and it took everything i had not to pull the bone out of bubba's mouth...(he's a gulper and regurgitated four or five times before he got whatever he was eating down).....

my boy got constipated, he passed bloody bits of bone...my girl regurgitated bone...

this is all part of transition.....and yes, it's a nail biter....

but, trust me, there IS a light at the end of the tunnel.

if it makes you feel better to mallet the drumstick (don't feed wings anymore)....then do so...until you think he's more used to it....

but at some point, you're going to have to take the training wheels off, and let him learn how to be the descendant of the wolf...which is what he is on the inside....

a year from now, we'll all meet and have cosmopolitans and beer to celebrate we lived through this and so did our dogs....


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

luvMyBRT said:


> I too agree that you just try to let him eat the whole RMB as he normally would. If it makes you feel better you can smash it for a while to help his digestive system get used to digesting raw bones as well as to help him learn how to chew up the bone.
> 
> Duncan can not eat many RMBs do to a health condition. I do a modified barf/home cooked diet for him. I add calcium to his diet regularly. I used ground up eggshells. I rinse the shells and let them dry over night. I then use my coffee grinder to grind them into a powder. You want to add 900 milligrams (approx. 1/2 tsp) of calcium per pound of food.
> 
> However, I am sure that Tucker will do great with eating his RMB. And, let me tell you this.....it is SO much easier to just throw them a RMB then to have to mess with calcium supplements! :smile:


i remember when you started...truth be told, duncan would have been on RMB had he not developed a condition.....but you did right by him, because every dog is different....and good for you...


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## TuckersMom (Apr 27, 2011)

luvMyBRT said:


> I too agree that you just try to let him eat the whole RMB as he normally would. If it makes you feel better you can smash it for a while to help his digestive system get used to digesting raw bones as well as to help him learn how to chew up the bone.
> 
> Duncan can not eat many RMBs do to a health condition. I do a modified barf/home cooked diet for him. I add calcium to his diet regularly. I used ground up eggshells. I rinse the shells and let them dry over night. I then use my coffee grinder to grind them into a powder. You want to add 900 milligrams (approx. 1/2 tsp) of calcium per pound of food.
> 
> However, I am sure that Tucker will do great with eating his RMB. And, let me tell you this.....it is SO much easier to just throw them a RMB then to have to mess with calcium supplements! :smile:


 I'm afraid Tucker might have a health condition regarding his throat because of the issues I mentioned earlier in this thread. I guess I should have the vet check him to make sure his throat is normal. Is store-bought powdered calcium the same as grated egg shells? I don't think I would want to grind shells, lol


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

TuckersMom said:


> I'm afraid Tucker might have a health condition regarding his throat because of the issues I mentioned earlier in this thread. I guess I should have the vet check him to make sure his throat is normal. Is store-bought powdered calcium the same as grated egg shells? I don't think I would want to grind shells, lol


you may want to have his palate checked to make sure it's not elongated.....which is usually fixable....

grinding egg shells is easy.....get a coffee grinder, crack some eggs, let the shell dry and then grind away.....i believe the measurement is 900 mg per pound of food...


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## FL Cracker (May 4, 2011)

As stated...we were pretty overwhelmed with the whole Prey diet a month ago now....scared the crap out of me handing over a raw chicken quarter to our pup...and watching her try and figure out how to get it down.
It's been a month now...and so far...so good. The holy crap factor is down to a minimum...and we still feed a lot of chicken and turkey. I have introduced venison...pork...beef...liver...ect to make weight with the chicken quarter. 
I had no idea how much she liked the chicken feet...they are like potato chips for her now. 
In regards to big bones...like ribs...ect. I give them to her long enough to get the meat off...marrow out...ect...and then toss them. CoCo get's most of her bone in the chicken...turkey...ect. 
Once and a while she will get a good lamb shank with some tendon...ect. on it...and I feel that helps. Were still learning...and doing great. 
Our last "holy crap" was when I gave her a big turkey leg...and she was just trying to get the whole thing down...back it up...chew....try to swallow...back it out...chew...ect. Finally she got it down after grinding the bones up. I was close to helping her with it...but was able to restrain myself...and let her figure it out. Then came the concern that she would actually pass the bone...as it seemed so big. 
Alas...that morning... and evening after...normal old poop... normal appetite. CoCo is a Rottie..so I consider her a good powerful chewer.
A month ago she had just lost all her puppy teeth...and her adult teeth (most) were just poking through....so I still had big concerns with obstruction...due to her lack of ability to chew through bones. We kept them small...chicken drumett's....legs...and thigh's...with the fat cut up...or pulled off.
Hang in there...and don't be surprised if you still get concerned about the Prey diet... I believe it's a normal concern...and just shows that you love your dog...and want the best for him/her.


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## TuckersMom (Apr 27, 2011)

FL Cracker said:


> As stated...we were pretty overwhelmed with the whole Prey diet a month ago now....scared the crap out of me handing over a raw chicken quarter to our pup...and watching her try and figure out how to get it down. It's been a month now...and so far...so good. The holy crap factor is down to a minimum...and we still feed a lot of chicken and turkey. I have introduced venison...pork...beef...liver...ect to make weight with the chicken quarter. I had no idea how much she liked the chicken feet...they are like potato chips for her now. In regards to big bones...like ribs...ect. I give them to her long enough to get the meat off...marrow out...ect...and then toss them. CoCo get's most of her bone in the chicken...turkey...ect. Once and a while she will get a good lamb shank with some tendon...ect. on it...and I feel that helps. Were still learning...and doing great. Our last "holy crap" was when I gave her a big turkey leg...and she was just trying to get the whole thing down...back it up...chew....try to swallow...back it out...chew...ect. Finally she got it down after grinding the bones up...and I was close to helping her with it...but was able to restrain myself...and let her figure it out. Then came the concern that she would actually pass the bone...as it seemed so big.
> Alas...that morning... and evening after...normal old poop... normal appetite....now she is a Rottie..so I consider her a good powerful chewer...but a month ago she had just lost her puppy teeth...so I still had big concerns with obstruction..ect.
> Hang in there...and don't be surprised if you still get concerned about the Prey diet... I believe it's a normal concern...and just shows that you love your dog...and want the best for him/her.


 Thank you for your encouraging words and sharing your recent experiences. I really appreciate it! :smile:


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## FL Cracker (May 4, 2011)

TuckersMom said:


> Thank you for your encouraging words and sharing your recent experiences. I really appreciate it! :smile:


On a side note... I did try to break bones with a BFH (big friggin hammer) but felt that there were more splinter's in there than if the dog had just learned how to chew the bone properly. SO...what I did was look for the smaller chickens...ect. That way it was size proportionate...and CoCo still had the chance to figure things out. It's funny...I have watched many...many videos of dog's eating a prey diet...some lay down...paw and pull at their dinner...and others simply just stand over and chew...never using their front paws to pull the meat away. CoCo has yet to "touch" anything that I have given her...she will just keep on chewing versus putting a paw on it and pulling the meat away. Guess that's just the way she is built...or there is actually a "phenomenon" associated with this that's instinctive? Not sure. Glad the reassurance helps...and hang in there.


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

wine helps.


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## TuckersMom (Apr 27, 2011)

FL Cracker said:


> On a side note... I did try to break bones with a BFH (big friggin hammer) but felt that there were more splinter's in there than if the dog had just learned how to chew the bone properly. SO...what I did was look for the smaller chickens...ect. That way it was size proportionate...and CoCo still had the chance to figure things out. It's funny...I have watched many...many videos of dog's eating a prey diet...some lay down...paw and pull at their dinner...and others simply just stand over and chew...never using their front paws to pull the meat away. CoCo has yet to "touch" anything that I have given her...she will just keep on chewing versus putting a paw on it and pulling the meat away. Guess that's just the way she is built...or there is actually a "phenomenon" associated with this that's instinctive? Not sure. Glad the reassurance helps...and hang in there.


 Tucker tries not to have to touch it, but he's a littlier guy and can't leverage without placing one of his paws on the RMB so he can rip off the meat


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

TuckersMom said:


> Tucker tries not to have to touch it, but he's a littlier guy and can't leverage without placing one of his paws on the RMB so he can rip off the meat


malia tries not to touch it, either, but in order to eat certain foods, she has to...and, if i've learned nothing else feeding raw, is that i cannot teach them how to eat raw....i can only provide the proper tools, which is the raw food and they will figure it out themselves...it's a mental stimulation for them. good for their brains.


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