# Makin' The Change



## SuperPug (Mar 5, 2013)

I'll be using this thread to post any random questions I come up with. We still have 1/4 left of our 30lbs of TOTW, but I figured I might as well get everything set right before I even think about setting up her new meals.

Here's what I am planning:
Chicken
Turkey
Pork
Fish
and Beef

Can beef be added earlier? Or is it too rich?

I plan on following this guide: Quick Start | Prey Model Raw I believe I saw this from DaneMama. Now are all these meals bone in?

I plan on feeding Emma on a towel or her blanket. She mostly chews her raw meaty bones on them, but she doesn't completely stay ON the designated area. She's always moving about and ends up moving off the blanket. Most times I just tell her to "drop it", tell her to sit or lay in the middle of the blanket. Say "Yes, Good Girl!" and give her the "chewie". I'm sure once she actually has to eat on that blanket everyday she'll figure it out faster. Right now she just eats her chewies on it once a week or so. I feel I am going about this the right way, if you have any ideas, lemme know. 

Thanks everyone!


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## naturalfeddogs (Jan 6, 2011)

You could feed beef in place of the fish, and intro fish between turkey and pork. All red meats are pretty rich, but I have always fed pork before beef. Heart is an important beef cut, and its super rich.


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## DaneMama (Jun 27, 2008)

It completely depends on how she does with the initial switch. If she does well, you could add in beef earlier. If she struggles I would not add it in early. 

Can you feed her outside? We used to feed indoors and now I would never go back to doing that. The dogs don't care if its raining- they love eating so much they're oblivious. Feeding outside means virtually no clean up :thumb:


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## SuperPug (Mar 5, 2013)

DaneMama said:


> Can you feed her outside? We used to feed indoors and now I would never go back to doing that. The dogs don't care if its raining- they love eating so much they're oblivious. Feeding outside means virtually no clean up :thumb:


We live in an upstairs apartment. And our front/back balconies have that thin carpet on concrete. So it's a bit difficult to feed her outside. I really would LURVE to feed her outside. Maybe in another year if we move to a downstairs unit(they all come with mini backyards).


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## SuperPug (Mar 5, 2013)

What can happen if too much bone is given?


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## FBarnes (Feb 17, 2013)

If you give too much bone, her poops will become dry and crumbly. Sometimes it looks like sand pouring out. That's too much bone  It can cause constipation and in very rare cases i guess it could cause some kind of intestinal problem but I haven't ever heard of a real case of that. Poops should be formed but not dry. If they start getting too loose, add some bone.

I taught my dog to eat in one spot by just picking him up and putting him back when he started to wander. he figured out quickly that if he tried to move off his spot, it would be a hassle to grab his bone and hang on to it while I moved him back. It didn't take very long but yes outside is a much better place when you can do it. Then they can drag it anywhere they want to.


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## wolfsnaps88 (Jan 2, 2012)

Yay. Are you excited? You should be excited. LOL. I am sure your dog will be excited about eating real whole food in no time. 

I feed my dogs outside. I guess I take that for granted. However, my small dog has no undercoat and gets cold quickly so in crappy weather he eats in a dog crate. The big guys seem to not care about weather. The mastiff will lay on the cold, snowy, frozen ground to relish an especially tasty meal as if its a beautiful spring day. The only thing my dogs do not care for is heavy rain but who can blame them?

Too much bone and poops are dry, crumbly, and usually light in color. Not enough bone and poops are liquid, black tar. Its a balancing act of knowing how much bone your dog needs. There is the rule of thumb of 80/10/10 but it is just a guideline. Some dogs need more, some need less. You have to know your dog really. Trial and error is how I learned and even to this day I will check their poops.


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

my three eat in our kitchen, on towels...we taught them to do that without stealing or fighting.

put the towel in the washer and that's cleanup. 

the bone thing boils down to what every one has said.....that and as time goes by, know thy dog....


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## SuperPug (Mar 5, 2013)

Thanks everyone!

I know Emma will enjoy being raw fed. I know for a fact that she will choose a piece of raw meat over a bowl of kibbles. I really did give her that choice last night. Chicken leg or a bowl of kibbles. She choose that leg without hesitation. And when she was done, she didn't bother checking for that bowl of kibbles.

I am very excited and nervous at the same time. Excited because I can't wait to see how much meat I can buy for $20-40 at the market I found and nervous because I keep over thinking everything. It's so simple, but IDK why I keep over thinking. Just watch the poos and adjust as needed!


Do any of y'all feed eggs? I heard egg shells are good for feeding. Would you replace them with a bone meal for smaller dogs? Or just add it as addition? What about just the yolk and whites, do any of y'all feed that?


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## Herzo (Feb 5, 2011)

I feed the whole egg shell and all. But I don't have a small dog so no I just add it to there meals. The white can interfere with some b vitamin absorption I think but I have also read if you feed the whole thing it will balance out.

I hope so because it is easier to do the whole thing. I hope some one that knows better will come on and give there opinion because I was just talking about this on another forum not to long ago. I did a search on here and this is all I came up with.


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## Liz (Sep 27, 2010)

Super Pug - congrats on making the change, you won't regret it. Think easy, add proteins slowly and soon you will be feeding anything you want. Yes we feed whole eggs, some dogs eat the shell some don't. Egg are rich though and I would not start those til right around the time you hit the beef stage.


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## Herzo (Feb 5, 2011)

Liz what do you think about the b vitamin thing?


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## Liz (Sep 27, 2010)

Hi Herzo, good to see you.  I don't worry much because the dogs get their nutrients and vitamins primarily from meat sources. I like eggs for protein, vitamin A, calcium and iron as well as the fat it provides. I would be more concerned if this was the only source for vitamin B in my dogs diet. The richness of eggs really makes their coats lovely and since we have our own chickens we don't have to worry about soy or corn based diets the chicken are commercially fed. We mix our own feed. 

Beef, lamb, fish, liver are where they probably get most of their vitamins.


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## DaneMama (Jun 27, 2008)

Man, sounds like it would be pretty impossible to feed outside unless you took her all the way down and out to feed her! 

Most of the time dogs learn quickly where their eating spot it. Even my dogs who eat outside and have plenty of space all to to their regular spots for eating. It's almost like they've got their own little territories for eating. 

Yep! Eggs are great- we feed them regularly. I crack a few whole eggs into a bowl, drop the shells in, pour a few tablespoons of wild Alaskan salmon oil on top and mix it up a bit. I do this once or twice a week for each dog. They usually consume all the shells doing it this way. I would agree with Liz that they should be added in later down the transition and added in slowly- ie one at a time for a large dog. 

Don't over think things too much. Soon enough it'll all become second nature to you and you'll wonder why you worried so much!


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## Liz (Sep 27, 2010)

I don't know about your dogs Natalie but mine will eat the shells from our own hens but won't eat the shells from store bought eggs. Maybe the freshness is a factor or the way ours are corn and soy free. Don't know.


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## SuperPug (Mar 5, 2013)

I've aten soft boiled eggs from my horse trainer. She has her own chickens, but I'm not really too aware of their diets. I do believe there is corn in their meals tho.

Emma ate those shells. Then again, she's my little weirdo and she eats anything xD Just today, at my trainer's, she was eating orange peels!


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## BearMurphy (Feb 29, 2012)

Liz said:


> I don't know about your dogs Natalie but mine will eat the shells from our own hens but won't eat the shells from store bought eggs. Maybe the freshness is a factor or the way ours are corn and soy free. Don't know.


There is definentely something similar going on when i feed eggs too. Murphy stopped finishing store bought eggs shells but likes the ones from a local farm. I noticed they are much thicker and crunchier so I'm assuming its because of what they are fed?


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## DaneMama (Jun 27, 2008)

At first yes, they ate the shells from our own eggs but not store bought. Now since we get so many (upwards of a dozen per day) they get plenty of eggs and they just get tired of the shells I think. They do eat some shells here and there and when I mix them up before feeding


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## SuperPug (Mar 5, 2013)

Besides livers, what other organs are fed? Is liver okay to feed as the only organ?


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

SuperPug said:


> Besides livers, what other organs are fed? Is liver okay to feed as the only organ?


half of her quota is supposed to be liver...which is approximately 5% of her organ intake.

the other half or 5% can be kidney, brains, thymus, pancreas, spleen, and i just went blank on the other offal....
you can feed testes and ovaries if you find them, too.

the more the merrier.

beef heart, though humans think it's an organ, is considered a muscle for dogs...so that's not an organ. 

my dogs will eat the shells from liz' eggs, but not store bought. smart dogs.

i also have a pug. these are fat soluble vitamins, so after a few years, i started to feed a little less organ...the liver stores months' worth.....but my dogs do get liver, kidney, brains, spleen, thymus.....i rotate it and am not terribly concerned.


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## SuperPug (Mar 5, 2013)

Thanks. Are intestines counted as organs?


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

SuperPug said:


> Thanks. Are intestines counted as organs?


no.....i don't feed intestines. maybe others do.....but they are not an organ.

the true definition of an organ is one that secretes.....

heart and the lungs are not considered organs for dogs either though technically they are in human terms.


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## Dobelover (Mar 14, 2013)

If you feed the whole egg they say it balances out. But, if you boil the egg for 30 sec, it will denature the egg without cooking it, so, it solves that problem without losing any nutrients


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## Tobi (Mar 18, 2011)

There isn't any nutritional value to be had in the gi tract...seems you might be inviting parasites that way... Besides who wants to eat poop... Oh wait... Dogs :suspicious:


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## SuperPug (Mar 5, 2013)

I'm planning Emma's meals for her transition. I do not believe the market I will be going to carry's neck bones.
So for pork, what small bone-in meals(besides ribs) can I use? Or do they not have to be bone-in? 

I could use just fish instead of pork. But I believe that is more expensive......should maybe double check my prices.


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

SuperPug said:


> I'm planning Emma's meals for her transition. I do not believe the market I will be going to carry's neck bones.
> So for pork, what small bone-in meals(besides ribs) can I use? Or do they not have to be bone-in?
> 
> I could use just fish instead of pork. But I believe that is more expensive......should maybe double check my prices.


because my pug is a gulper, i have no problem feeding the very bones i tell others not to feed dogs with noses and wider tracheas...

so soup bones, whilst they are the dense dense bones of a heavy animal......and not suitable for my corgi mix or collie (teeth and jaws are just so strong, 
they'd be able to crack the bone and consequently, their teeth)....

i would feed to my pug.

so the biggest soup bones you can find will keep your pug's teeth nice and clean.

pork ribs are a great edible bone. not the baby backs. they are harder and more expensive.....i believe what i'm talking about are called st. louis ribs....i hope your store carries those. they are quite useful as edible bone.

the information you need is whether or not your dog is a gulper or what i call a 'stupid' eater. bubba the pug is a stupid eater.


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## Fundog (Oct 25, 2012)

Pig feet are awesome raw, meaty bony meals. The bones in the feet are small, but soft and have a satisfying crunch-- like cartilage-- and there is a lot of meat surrounding them. My doggies love them, but they are very expensive at my store, so they are a rare treat for when I really feel like spoiling them. : ) I have fairly large dogs-- 50 lbs.-- and they do great with pig feet. But then, my two are thorough chewers. Pig feet should be awesome for Emma the Pug.


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## SuperPug (Mar 5, 2013)

She currently gets pig feet as a regular recreational chewing. It maybe on the larger side(she could do all the cutting herself) and seems more skin than meat.


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## SuperPug (Mar 5, 2013)

Emma was also quite a gulper. But since starting recreational chews, she's learned to slow down a bit and enjoy it more


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## wolfsnaps88 (Jan 2, 2012)

I think we need some pictures of Emma with her raw meals.


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## naturalfeddogs (Jan 6, 2011)

SuperPug said:


> Thanks. Are intestines counted as organs?


No, not organs. I don't know of anyone who feeds intestines because in most cases, that is where parasites live. The intestines and stomach.


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## SuperPug (Mar 5, 2013)

I'll be taking some picys once she starts. Mostly pics of her protein transitions for a while.


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## MollyWoppy (Mar 19, 2010)

I was going to say, and I don't think anyone else has touched on it, to be careful not to overfeed. That's my friends biggest problems with her Pugs, they devour their food and it's so easy to give them a little more than they should get as their meals are not really very big to begin with. I'm trying to get her to feed them once a day, that way it's a bigger, more work intensive, more satisfying meal for them, but the Pug's won't have it, they think their throats been cut if they don't get their morning meal. Good luck, I bet you won't look back, I know my friend is very happy with her Pugs PMR diet.


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## SuperPug (Mar 5, 2013)

Yes, for a while I kept looking at 4 ounces and going, "really? really? That's how much she has to eat in a meal?!" But when you really look at it all, she's getting way more nutrition in the same amount she'd get in kibble form. So giving her less is going to benefit her. 1/2 cup of meat would be too much nutrition vs half cup of kibble.


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## FBarnes (Feb 17, 2013)

When I switched my small dachshund, we went from counting out 8 little kibbles twice a day to almost 5 oz a day. So it seemed the opposite for me. Although I think there were issues just digesting kibble in general.

I think MollyWoppy has the BEST advice - it seems to me so many people start out by overfeeding which causes diarrhea even though the ratio of bone/fat/organ may be just fine, then they start switching up, removing fat, and getting everything out of whack - everything but going small because they can't stand to feed their dogs a lesser amount.


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## SuperPug (Mar 5, 2013)

When would you feed egg? Egg shells classify as bone correct?


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