# Kelp meal



## Angelwing (Feb 20, 2011)

Does anyone feed this? I think the petstore here sells it. If you do feed, how much and how often?


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## whiteleo (Sep 7, 2008)

I feed dried kelp once a week to my dogs in their fish/egg meal, this particular brand says to feed: dogs to 25 lbs 1/4 tsp. 25-50lbs 1/2 tsp. and 50lbs+ 1 tsp. cats 1/8 tsp. Here is the link if you like. Life Line Pet Nutrition Inc.


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## RawFedDogs (Jun 16, 2008)

Angelwing said:


> Does anyone feed this? I think the petstore here sells it. If you do feed, how much and how often?


The answer is no. I always look to nature when feeding my animals. I don't see wild dogs or wolves eating a whole lot of kelp. By far the greatest majority will never see kelp.


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## JayJayisme (Aug 2, 2009)

Dogs in the wild barely eat fish, let alone kelp. What nutritional need is it supposed to fulfill in a raw fed dog that the diet alone doesn't cover? Not being argumentative, just asking since I have no idea even after reading the link above which sounds like it was written for humans rather than dogs.


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## G_slave01 (Dec 24, 2010)

This is what I found:

"Kelp" AKA the "vegetable of the sea" is a form of seaweed that is rich in nutrients. Kelp is rich in fiber and can increase fecal bulk or act as a mild laxative if needed. Besides keeping your dog regular, Kelp provides energy and endurance, promotes circulation and relieves nervous tension. 

I, for one, am very interested to know why Whiteleo feeds this.


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## JayJayisme (Aug 2, 2009)

G_slave01 said:


> This is what I found:
> 
> "Kelp" AKA the "vegetable of the sea" is a form of seaweed that is rich in nutrients. Kelp is rich in fiber and can increase fecal bulk or act as a mild laxative if needed. Besides keeping your dog regular, Kelp provides energy and endurance, promotes circulation and relieves nervous tension.
> 
> I, for one, am very interested to know why Whiteleo feeds this.


The key word being "vegetable". With the exception of increasing fecal bulk (why?) and acting as a mild laxative, the PMR diet already does these things since it's a balanced diet. I'm looking for what kelp provides above and beyond what the PMR diet provides. Still, I have no idea why you would want to increase fecal bulk. Kibble does that too with all the fillers in it. What's the point?

Searching for answers.

Jay


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## Angelwing (Feb 20, 2011)

It's nutritious but I'm not sure if it's suitable with a raw diet. Someone else told me they feed it to their dogs with good results so I was curious to know if anyone here did and if they noticed any benefits?


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## luvMyBRT (Mar 8, 2010)

I have found that kelp contains the following: Vitamins A, B-1, B-2, B-3, B-12, C, E, G, S, calcium, chlorine, copper, iodine, iron, lithium, magnesium, phosphorus, potassium, selenium, silicon, sulfur, zinc, chromium, cobalt, manganese, niacin, riboflavin, sodium and thiamine.

I give kelp to Duncan because he is not able to eat any organ meat or any red meats due to a health condition. He gets a modified BARF diet and I had to replace the vitamins and nutrients lost from not eating organs and a variety of meats with a veggie puree and extra supplements. His vitamins/supplements are given about once a week and contain kelp.

He is doing wonderful with this diet.


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## sassymaxmom (Dec 7, 2008)

Max is going to be getting a kelp supplement too. He is fed a low percentage of his body weight and magnesium, maganese and zinc are a bit low. Some seaweeds are a very good source of this as well as iodine of course. Max gets some whole prey with all the blood and guts but not much. Perhaps if he ate 2% of his body weight and got more whole prey he wouldn't need anything added but as it is I do see an improvement in his condition when he gets the extra minerals.


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## whiteleo (Sep 7, 2008)

I'm so glad Sara spoke before I could because I always feel attacked about how I feed my dogs. I've been feeding this for well over 1 1/2 years and have not seen any negative affects on my dogs, only positives. I don't feed organs every day and try to remember to feed them a meal every two weeks, but just in case I don't get it right this is my little bit of assurance that they get some of what they need. 

I'm not sure why people here care so much that I feed kelp, its like people taking a vitamin everyday, do we tell them not to?


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

JayJayisme said:


> Dogs in the wild barely eat fish, let alone kelp. What nutritional need is it supposed to fulfill in a raw fed dog that the diet alone doesn't cover? Not being argumentative, just asking since I have no idea even after reading the link above which sounds like it was written for humans rather than dogs.


i'm neither supportive or against feeding certain non prey model elements......the one thing we can't say is that our dogs live in the wild. they don't.

we have no idea what feral dogs eat or don't eat to stay alive, dependent on where they reside.


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## luvMyBRT (Mar 8, 2010)

magicre said:


> i'm neither supportive or against feeding certain non prey model elements......the one thing we can't say is that our dogs live in the wild. they don't.
> 
> we have no idea what feral dogs eat or don't eat to stay alive, dependent on where they reside.


I totally agree with this statement. And, come to think of it....if Duncan lived in the wild he for sure would be dead by now. Thank goodness he doesn't and I am able to modify a diet that is perfect for his condition. While it's not the ideal diet for a carnivore, it's the diet that works for Duncan and that's what matters.....and yes, kelp is a part of it.


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## CorgiPaws (Mar 31, 2009)

I don't fed kelp- mostly because I have a dog. 


Unless your dog has a serious medical condition preventing them from being able to eat any one of the three factors on a prey model diet(meat, bone, organs) there is no need to buy them fish food.


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## whiteleo (Sep 7, 2008)

And that is totally your opinion puppypaws, just like tripe. Don't condemn someone because they don't feed exactly like you!


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

JayJayisme said:


> Dogs in the wild barely eat fish, let alone kelp. What nutritional need is it supposed to fulfill in a raw fed dog that the diet alone doesn't cover? Not being argumentative, just asking since I have no idea even after reading the link above which sounds like it was written for humans rather than dogs.


depending on where dogs live determines what they eat, since they hunt and forage. dogs, for instance, in alaska have been studied extensively and can be seen to eat salmon in season.

i would imagine that dogs who reside near oceans eat anything that will fill their bellies, so why not kelp. i eat it. : )


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## RawFedDogs (Jun 16, 2008)

magicre said:


> i'm neither supportive or against feeding certain non prey model elements......the one thing we can't say is that our dogs live in the wild. they don't.


Just because they live in your house doesn't mean their nutritional needs are different. Look to wild wolves. Thats what our dogs should eat. Yes, wolves that live close to the rivers in salmon territory will eat salmon during the runs. The greatest percentage of wolves don't live near those rivers. Are they less healthy? I doubt it. I don't remember ever seeing pictures, documentaries, or seen written that wolves eat sea weed. That is a plant and as such, have no nutritional need for it.

If a human moved out to the wilderness and depended on nothing but himself to get his food, would his nutritional needs change. Of course not. He may not be able to get all the stuff he gets in the grocery store but his needs don't change.


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

RawFedDogs said:


> Just because they live in your house doesn't mean their nutritional needs are different. Look to wild wolves. Thats what our dogs should eat. Yes, wolves that live close to the rivers in salmon territory will eat salmon during the runs. The greatest percentage of wolves don't live near those rivers. Are they less healthy? I doubt it. I don't remember ever seeing pictures, documentaries, or seen written that wolves eat sea weed. That is a plant and as such, have no nutritional need for it.
> 
> If a human moved out to the wilderness and depended on nothing but himself to get his food, would his nutritional needs change. Of course not. He may not be able to get all the stuff he gets in the grocery store but his needs don't change.


i think i might not have made myself clear. i would imagine that dogs are adaptive. perfect example are dogs eating kibble and still living to old ages.

i think that dogs adapt, just as humans do. 

do i believe that a dog sees kelp and says...wow...look at all those minerals, i gotta get me some? no.

but i do believe that dogs adapt to their environment, whatever it is.

i read forums where dogs are fed nothing but chickens. that does not mimic a dog in the wild at all.
chickens are not at the top of the list for dog nutrients, yet dogs live on chicken in peoples' homes who cannot afford to buy much else.

then there are dogs who eat emu and llama and all kinds of exotic meats. do they need them here in north america? no.

but, do dogs in africa eat venison? not to the extent they eat other animals and other animals indigenous to the area.

in australia, dogs eat kangaroo. they don't much eat it here. 

google 'dogs eating kelp' and there are plenty of pictures of dogs eating kelp. again, i am neither for nor against...but i also try not to become too rigid about what a dog wants or needs or eats when i'm not there to feed.

which also means, there are areas of the world where dogs eat what they can, what's available and they adapt. so why not kelp. especially since it has a salty odour...and that would appeal to a dog's appetite, just as sugar does.

i'm not saying they need it or don't need it....i'm saying that we have no idea what dogs eat in the wild. 

that's all i'm saying.


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## DaneMama (Jun 27, 2008)

This is what I think about kelp....

Do dogs need it? No....unless they're like Duncan and can't have a normal raw diet due to genetic disease.

Will it do any harm giving it to a normal healthy dog? Most likely no. 

Will it help? Maybe. Those who do feed it say they see good results. 

Me personally? I see wonderful results with just meat, bones and organs. I guess you could say I live by the rule of "if it ain't broke don't fix it" so I dont see a need to add in things like kelp. If I were to start seeing problems you betcha I would be exploring my options! 

I don't see those who don't feed this kind of stuff as condemning those who do...it's just a difference of options and that's it.


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## whiteleo (Sep 7, 2008)

And that is exactly my point Natalie, "if it ain't broke, don't fix it!" It works in my feeding program.


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## DaneMama (Jun 27, 2008)

Thats great, keep doing what works well! :thumb:


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## RawFedDogs (Jun 16, 2008)

Before I begin, I need to remind you that I never said kelp would hurt dogs. I just said that it's totally unnecessary in their diet. If it were necessary, all wolves would live near the seashore.



magicre said:


> i think i might not have made myself clear. i would imagine that dogs are adaptive. perfect example are dogs eating kibble and still living to old ages.
> 
> i think that dogs adapt, just as humans do.


To me, "adapting" means a change in the digestive system or nutritional needs and I haven't see that happen.

but i do believe that dogs adapt to their environment, whatever it is.



> i read forums where dogs are fed nothing but chickens. that does not mimic a dog in the wild at all.
> chickens are not at the top of the list for dog nutrients, yet dogs live on chicken in peoples' homes who cannot afford to buy much else.


That doesn't mean they wouldn't be healthier or a more varied diet.



> then there are dogs who eat emu and llama and all kinds of exotic meats. do they need them here in north america? no.


I would think llama would be pretty much the same as deer and goats and maybe rabbits as far as the nutrition in their body parts.



> but, do dogs in africa eat venison? not to the extent they eat other animals and other animals indigenous to the area.


All places in the world have animals that are similar to deer, elk, sheep, goats. I would think the nutritional makeup of wolves' diets around the world would be pretty much the same.



> in australia, dogs eat kangaroo. they don't much eat it here.


It's still pretty much the same red meat thats in other animals.



> google 'dogs eating kelp' and there are plenty of pictures of dogs eating kelp. again, i am neither for nor against...but i also try not to become too rigid about what a dog wants or needs or eats when i'm not there to feed.


I did google it and didn't find any pictures of dogs eating kelp. I would like to see pictures of wild dogs or wild wolves eating kelp in nature. Most of the pages that came up were places selling kelp.



> which also means, there are areas of the world where dogs eat what they can, what's available and they adapt. so why not kelp. especially since it has a salty odour...and that would appeal to a dog's appetite, just as sugar does.


Well, we know how good sugar is for dogs. I think kelp is much healthier than sugar. I'm just not sure it would be part of a dog's/wolf's diet in the wild, thefore not necessary or particularly beneficial.



> i'm not saying they need it or don't need it....i'm saying that we have no idea what dogs eat in the wild.
> 
> that's all i'm saying.


My only problem is before long people are going to think kelp is like tripe. Some kind of miracle food. Tripe is much more appropriate to feed a dog than kelp. Eventhough kelp has a lot of nutrients in it, we have no idea how much of that is actually bioavailable. I'm thinking not much. I'm also not convinced that there are any nutrients in it that aren't available in meat, bones, and organs.


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## RachelsaurusRexU (Sep 4, 2010)

I guess I don't really understand why there's always such controversy over these topics of feeding 'extras' or 'supplements'. Perhaps they aren't necessary for the average dog, but if kelp isn't detrimental then it can only either be beneficial or totally pointless. If it is beneficial, awesome! If it's pointless, it's not your money down the drain, so why should it bother you so much? 

I could see debating this if kelp were harmful, but come on. If it makes somebody more comfortable to feed their dog kelp once a week and they see positive results with it, who's that really harming?


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## RawFedDogs (Jun 16, 2008)

RachelsaurusRexU said:


> I guess I don't really understand why there's always such controversy over these topics of feeding 'extras' or 'supplements'. Perhaps they aren't necessary for the average dog, but if kelp isn't detrimental then it can only either be beneficial or totally pointless. If it is beneficial, awesome! If it's pointless, it's not your money down the drain, so why should it bother you so much?


There is a very good reason. When wild claims about most anything works its way into the raw feeding world, if no one challenges it, it all of a sudden becomes ingraved in stone and becomes an absolute truth. Examples would be the 80-10-10 rule which everyone swore by until people started questioning it. The miracles of green tripe went unchallenged for a while and eveyone thought their dog couldn't be healthy without green tripe in the diet. It had all these miracle properties. Now kelp is working its way into the world with some pretty wild claims about its necessity in a raw diet.

One of the excuses kibble feeders use not to start feeding raw is that "t's too complicated and I'm not sure if I am going to get it right." Well when people start throwing around 80-10-10 and green tripe and kelp,it starts to get complicated and starts to look difficult. People wonder how the heck do I balance all those things .. meat, bones, organs, tripe, kelp? How does tripe and kelp fit into 80-10-10? This is just too complicated. It's too much trouble to feed raw. *You can't claim to feed PMR and feed kelp.* It just doesn't fit. It's not a part of the prey. At least tripe is part of the prey.

To feed PMR, you feed a variety of animal parts from a variety of animals. You feed mostly meat, some bone, and some organs. There ... thats simple. Start throwing a bunch of other unncessary junk and it starts getting complicated.

So, although kelp isn't harmful, it isn't PMR. If you feed kelp then you must call yourself a BARFer. :smile:


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## CavePaws (Jan 25, 2011)

I'll just add that I don't think it matters what you supplement your dogs diet with...Seriously if it has some form of nutritional *benefit *to add to the diet, why does anyone who doesn't use it care so much if it's fed to someones dog?

I don't use the argument that we should look to wolves to see what to feed our dogs. Look to what early people fed to their *dogs*, or what dogs scavenge off of and we take the best, most nutritious and ideal food they could eat, and feed them that. I have seen what feral dogs eat, largely because I lived in an area full of them where they had little positive interaction with humans...Other than the benefit of being able to scavenge off of food. Dogs are opportunistic feeders, albeit having the anatomy of any other canines - making them carnivores, opportunistic scavengers in my opinion will fill their stomach with whatever appeals to them. Please keep in mind that they are not obligate carnivores, they do consume plant matter, whether they digest it well or at all is another debate in itself. They are survivalists and wonder when their next meal will be. They eat to survive and won't survive if they don't meet their nutritional needs at least at the minimum. I can tell you what a feral dogs mouth looks like after years of living on their own, it's not pretty. Broken teeth likely from chewing on bones too hard for them which they do come across, they often have dull coats, and parasites up the wazoo. Why would you look to what dogs eat in the wild, or wolves for that matter? One of the only reasons I feed a prey model raw diet now with comfort is because my dogs receive human grade food that likely doesn't contain parasites. If I went out and gathered up what my dogs and their ancestors were eating I am positive they would have parasites, dull coats, and all around appalling health. 

And just so it is known. Canines who have access to fish will eat them...Seriously, why pass up a healthy meal? I've witnessed sun baked, rotting fish eaten by a feral dog on more than one occasion...I bet she LOVED it.


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## RachelsaurusRexU (Sep 4, 2010)

RawFedDogs said:


> There is a very good reason. When wild claims about most anything works its way into the raw feeding world, if no one challenges it, it all of a sudden becomes ingraved in stone and becomes an absolute truth. Examples would be the 80-10-10 rule which everyone swore by until people started questioning it. The miracles of green tripe went unchallenged for a while and eveyone thought their dog couldn't be healthy without green tripe in the diet. It had all these miracle properties. Now kelp is working its way into the world with some pretty wild claims about its necessity in a raw diet.
> 
> One of the excuses kibble feeders use not to start feeding raw is that "t's too complicated and I'm not sure if I am going to get it right." Well when people start throwing around 80-10-10 and green tripe and kelp,it starts to get complicated and starts to look difficult. People wonder how the heck do I balance all those things .. meat, bones, organs, tripe, kelp? How does tripe and kelp fit into 80-10-10? This is just too complicated. It's too much trouble to feed raw. *You can't claim to feed PMR and feed kelp.* It just doesn't fit. It's not a part of the prey. At least tripe is part of the prey.
> 
> ...


This is SO over the freaking top. I've never once seen anybody claim that either kelp or tripe were necessary in a PMR diet or any other diet, for that matter. 

I think a bigger reason that people would be turned off by PMR is because of condescending elitists who belittle anyone that doesn't conform exactly to their every opinion. The key word there is "OPINION".


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## RawFedDogs (Jun 16, 2008)

CavePaws said:


> If I went out and gathered up what my dogs and their ancestors were eating I am positive they would have parasites, dull coats, and all around appalling health.


Hehe, I like you CP. You are one of my favorites on the board. However I have to strongly disagree with that statement. Wolves(our dogs) have thrived for a million years eating meat, bones, and organs. They also eat rotting carrion and still were healthy and probably had beautiful coats as does any animal who eats what nature intends them to eat.

IMO feral dogs have such poor health and poor coats and are riddled with parasites is because they are eating human food (garbage). If they ate only other animals, I think they would be more healthy than most dogs in the world. Its the plant matter they eat that is so unhealthy for them and causes them to be such physical wrecks.


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## RawFedDogs (Jun 16, 2008)

RachelsaurusRexU said:


> This is SO over the freaking top. I've never once seen anybody claim that either kelp or tripe were necessary in a PMR diet or any other diet, for that matter.


Oh, I used to see tripe being claimed to be a necessary part of the diet 8 or 9 years ago. Kelp will get that way if outrageous statements about aren't challenged.



> I think a bigger reason that people would be turned off by PMR is because of condescending elitists who belittle anyone that doesn't conform exactly to their every opinion. The key word there is "OPINION".


My emails say just the opposite. I get 10 or 15 emails a week from people asking advice about raw feeding. They don't see me as condescending in the least. They see me as a knowledgable source of advice. And it is not opinion about dogs eating plant matter. They were never designed to eat, digest, nor extract nutrients from plants. Thats a fact. No more than humans were designed to eat, digest, or extract nutrients from rocks.


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## RachelsaurusRexU (Sep 4, 2010)

Keep pumping up that ego!

And, no, I was right the first time when I said OPINION. It's your OPINION that no possibility exists that anything other than meat, bone or organ could offer the slightest bit of benefit to a dog, correct? THAT, to me, is what's outrageous. You have to be pretty closed-minded to believe that just because something isn't a necessity means it can't be in any way beneficial. Unless you can somehow prove that kelp offers no benefit whatsoever, I don't think it's terribly farfetched that the possibility exists. 

You may be a knowledgeable person but you don't know everything. Nobody does. I very often see you ridicule and belittle other members for their differing opinions or even for asking questions which you apparently find to be elementary. I've seen you step on other members to try and prove your points. You may think everyone views you as some omniscient expert, but I'll be honest. I don't give a baboon's bare bottom how many years you've been feeding PMR or training, that you're a moderator, or anything else. You'll STILL catch more flies with honey. There's no reason to treat people (people who are all here for the same common interest; the well-being of our beloved dogs) the way you often do.


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## CavePaws (Jan 25, 2011)

I value your opinion very much RFD, and you've provided a great deal of info for me to base some of my arguments off of. 
I tend to agree that if we did feed our dogs what they would prefer to eat, fresh kills and delicious carrion, then they would be in excellent health and most of our raw fed dogs are! I do think that the garbage they eat definitely gives them parasites, so does the wild game that sits out for days in he sun. I'm not sure how many parasites the food they scavenge off of us contain, I wouldn't think too many. They have fleas and ticks and those creates tape worms, so not all parasites come from the diet they eat - obviously. 

Wolves do eat what our dogs would prefer to eat - most of the time! Which is why I look to what they eat as a simple guide, but don't copy what all wild canines eat to the T...because it's uncalled for and not always ideal. I'm not going to lie I would not be against grabbing -fresh- road kill. I'm sure my dogs would think I'm the greatest hunter if I brought them back a whole deer to feast on...Now that would be one of the most ideal meals I could possibly feed them. :] Organs, odd parts like the tongue, fur and all. If/when I am able to find them fresh game animals I would be all over feeding them just that instead of cow and chicken all the time. 

Honestly, I've always had the secret desire to let my dogs pack up and hunt if they were capable of pulling off such a feat. Despite the fact that a death of a prey animal would be involved, I'd probably watch with a smile as they let their instincts take over. Just the circle of life in my opinion. If my dogs were able to pick out their own kills and carrion I don't doubt either that they would have gleaming coats and perfect health, because they would be getting the most optimal diet nature intended.

But - for dogs like Duncan, as Luvmybrt said, he would be dead right now unfortunately if he had to rely on the resources around him in the wild. He is a very lucky pup to have such a caring owner to look after him. I wonder though if certain disease and sickness presented by our domesticated companions is caused by their evolution along side humans.


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## BrownieM (Aug 30, 2010)

Well, okay, if one feeds kelp then they aren't a true PMR feeder according to RFD. Fabulous, I don't need a label. I do add some kelp to my dogs' diet (as of late) as well as probiotics and fish oil. I wouldn't call myself a BARF feeder because I don't know the first thing about feeding a barf diet. I follow the 80/10/10 guidelines and anything else I add are just extra. I suppose I feed a modified PMR diet. 

I just don't see a label as necessary. A label won't impact your dog's health.


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## CavePaws (Jan 25, 2011)

I don't think labels are really needed either...It doesn't matter. 

I would call myself a modified pmr feeder...You know why? I add things into their diet that they don't need at all. Indi eats cheese with her meds and the other dogs get cheese at the same time. It doesn't do her any harm, but it certainly doesn't add anything nutritional to her diet.


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## CorgiPaws (Mar 31, 2009)

When did disagreeing become condescending or a put down? I never said "how dare you feed kelp, you terrible, terrible person!" So chill out. 

It makes no sense to me. Period. Carnivores eat animal parts. This doesn't mean I'm belittling anyone, just that I find the whole idea a bit silly. Feed your dogs what you want. 

I see Bill's point entirely about things becoming accepted as fact if left unchallenged. It's not so over the top, and spending a few hours on some other raw forums and lists will show you that. Kelp is becoming as big of a "miracle worker" as tripe has been accepted as.

Will either harm your dog? Tripe certainly won't, pretty sure kelp won't. So what's the big deal? It's been proven time and time again that neither are necessary and plenty of us have fed either or with zero improvement. But if it makes you more comfortable in feeding your dogs, then go for it. 

If I didn't think "my" way was the best way, I wouldn't be doing. Just like if you wouldn't be doing "your" way if you didn't feel it was best. What humors me the most is when people feel their dog has some special genetic makeup making their nutritional needs different from any other carnivore. The exception, or course, being dogs like Duncan.


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## CavePaws (Jan 25, 2011)

> What humors me the most is when people feel their dog has some special genetic makeup making their nutritional needs different from any other carnivore. The exception, or course, being dogs like Duncan.


Please clarify what you mean by this? What argument do people use about a dog's special genetic makeup? I think it needs to be remembered that dogs do have different nutritional needs depending on their health which can definitely be caused by genetics.....Evolution...evolution changes genes, thus changing health.


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## DaneMama (Jun 27, 2008)

I would say that most dogs wouldn't fall into the category of needing a modified diet like Duncan. Therefore not actually needing supplements like kelp or tripe.

I think Linsey's point is the people who consider their dogs to be omnivores and *needing* certain things that they don't actually need. I know from experience on several other dog forums that some people believe to the bottoms of their souls that dogs are omnivores and NEED fruits and vegetables. There are some on here as well. I'm perfectly fine with people believing this, even if it is false. 

I don't think this should be an "us" versus "them" debate. Some people just feel more comfortable feeding their dogs extras and supplements...maybe just for peace of mind or maybe because they do see benefits of some kind. 

Although, the prey model raw style of raw feeding is based off of what a wolves' natural diet is in an IDEAL setting...meaning one not of famine where they will eat whatever they can survive on. If we follow what wolves eat in times of plenty that is whole prey animals, comprised of meat, bones and organs. Ideally nothing else is needed. Unless your dog happens to have some kind of medical/genetic problem that requires something to be modified.


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## CavePaws (Jan 25, 2011)

I sort of doubt many wild canines would pass up a good carrion meal...No matter what you say about prey being plentiful, they have to hunt to get fresh kills, so it is on their mind when their next meal is going to come around. Plentiful prey or not they will scavenge...

I don't know why people think that fruits and veggies are _needed_. Maybe because they don't/can't feed organ meat for some reason.
On another note, if your dog isn't getting a small amount of organ everyday, then I would argue that kelp is a beneficial additive. Especially if it is given everyday.

I've always wondered why people choose to feed an overdose on vitamins once a week? Wouldn't feeding 1 lb of liver cause an "overdose", whether it has negative effects or not, it would still be considered an overdose...Or I would assume. Correct me if I'm wrong. I don't think a giant meal of organ meat once a week is considered something a dog would get in the wild.


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## DaneMama (Jun 27, 2008)

CavePaws said:


> I sort of doubt many wild canines would pass up a good carrion meal...No matter what you say about prey being plentiful, they have to hunt to get fresh kills, so it is on their mind when their next meal is going to come around. Plentiful prey or not they will scavenge...


Oh, I never said they wouldn't scavenge! But what would they scavenge first? Dead animals....meat, bones and organs. I'm sure if times get really tough they scavenge for whatever they can survive on. But I don't base my dogs' diet off of times of famine.



> I don't know why people think that fruits and veggies are _needed_. Maybe because they don't/can't feed organ meat for some reason.
> On another note, if your dog isn't getting a small amount of organ everyday, then I would argue that kelp is a beneficial additive. Especially if it is given everyday.


I can see why people would need to feed fruits and veggies and kellp if they couldn't find a good source of organs.



> I've always wondered why people choose to feed an overdose on vitamins once a week? Wouldn't feeding 1 lb of liver cause an "overdose", whether it has negative effects or not, it would still be considered an overdose...Or I would assume. Correct me if I'm wrong. I don't think a giant meal of organ meat once a week is considered something a dog would get in the wild.


I actually see feeding one large meal of anything, whether it be meat and/or organs as more of how dogs would eat in the wild. Wolves gorge/fast probably more often than not because not every day are they able to make a kill or find a good carcass. They eat what they can stomach, go and sleep it off and maybe eat a few days later. That is why a lot of die hard raw feeders do gorging/fasting with their dogs...we do on occasion (we are actually going to do it tonight with a whole hog!).


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## whiteleo (Sep 7, 2008)

I have never been to another forum where kelp was even suggested, the only forum I even go to is yahoo groups rawbullterriers and they by no way say to feed kelp, I did this on my own research and knowledge, I don't need someone else to tell me what I think my dogs might need. Tripe I decided to try because it was the biggest order that always came through our co-op, I'm glad I did too.:thumb: 

I can't say whether or not the way I feed has anything to do with the way my dogs, skin and hair are as soft as a baby's butt, or their teeth as white as a porcelain tooth, or they have never had the desire to eat their or any other dogs poop, have not lost any hair or bald spots, don't eat grass like cows anymore. All I know is that this diet works and I haven't promoted the use of kelp to anyone.:tongue::amen:


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## RawFedDogs (Jun 16, 2008)

whiteleo said:


> I have never been to another forum where kelp was even suggested, the only forum I even go to is yahoo groups rawbullterriers and they by no way say to feed kelp,


Several years ago the idea of feeding kelp was popular on the raw feeding forums, particularly the yahoo rawfeeding list, because of the iodine in kelp. Some people thought and probably still do think that there isn't enough iodine in a PMR diet or RawMeatyBones diet or whatever they call their diet. I don't know that thyroid problems in raw fed dogs is any worse than kibble fed dogs. The thyroid gland is the iodine center of the body.


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## CavePaws (Jan 25, 2011)

I agree they gorge and fast. They probably wouldn't need to in an ideal setting, but I couldn't say they wouldn't as that is entirely their own personal preference. I don't agree that they will find a giant meal of solely organs once a week in the wild though. There is simply no way for that to happen. When I think of a true to the bone PMR feeder I am thinking of someone who offers organs at every meal, as if a dog were eating whole prey items, as you say this diet is based off of, they would be getting organs at every meal.

But here is the argument that wolves and dogs won't share organs. They eat what they can manage to stuff their mouth with and I highly doubt each member of a pack is going to take a small bite out of an animals liver and leave the rest of it for the other members to get the nutrients they need. I'm sure they hunt on their own at times, eating whole smaller prey items, so they would in fact be getting the amount of organ they need...But in no way will they find a meal of solely organs. There are so many organs in an animal that each member of a pack could in fact be getting at least a small amount of organ each if the pack is small enough at each big -shared- meal.

If we're going to slap a label on people, I don't think anyone around here is feeding the gold standard of what a PMR diet is said to be based on by so many - the feeding of what a dog or wolf would be getting in the wild - whole prey items and let's not forget anything they could scavenge off of that appeals. Everyone here feeds a modified diet. Remember that, and let's not condemn the way other people feed.

edit: And let's not forget the common ground upon which we all stand here...We all do believe that raw meat is what our dogs were designed to digest and eat, and that is what we feed.


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## DaneMama (Jun 27, 2008)

Cavepaws, you're making a good point but since whole prey items aren't really readily available or affordable for most people we have to make due with what's available. That's why the diet is called prey MODEL raw where we model after the composition of prey animals. In an ideal world we would feed whole prey. 

I personally agree that organs should be fed at every meal but since my dogs (and many more) hate organs, it's just simply easier to condense organ meals into one large meal every week or two. Its easier on me and my dogs to not have to shove organs down their throats everyday. If my dogs loved organs...you bet I would feed a small amount every day. A lot of people are in the same boat as me, and since balanced over time still works really well there's no reason to put both humans and dogs through a fight every day to get organs in.


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## CavePaws (Jan 25, 2011)

Agreed on all your points Danemama. :] It is prey "model" raw. I sort of forget that "model" is part of the title sometimes, however, if we are to use the argument about what our dogs would be getting out in the wild, we need to remember one serious flaw to our side of the argument - we don't always model our meals after whole prey items...Thus, I call us modified feeders. 

And I agree it isn't worth it to fight your dog to eat organs at every meal if they don't like it. If you can balance the diet over time, then that is the ideal way to feed for you and yours!

edit: And hey, just so you know, I'm able to feed organs every day thanks to the wonderful advice you and other members have given me.  I'm hoping when I get another pup one day I can feed the same way, but you never know, I might come across a picky eater! I wonder if you start them off on a PMR diet as pups if it is easier to get them to eat organs.


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## DaneMama (Jun 27, 2008)

The only dogs of ours that eat organs are the ones we raised on raw


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

bill....the brain is a beautiful organ....it takes in all kinds of information about the body and does what it needs to do
to ensure survival right up to the moment it can't.

shoot someone in the heart and the brain says...oops, can't help you there.

feed a dog kibble and the brain talks to each and every system and comes up with a plan to help the dog survive...in other words, adaptation.....the digestive system does adapt...it does not evolve....because the moment a dog goes back to a more natural diet, the digestive system begins to change....and sighs a happy sigh...and every system of the dogs body from the skin to the muscles to the organs to the teeth to the brain begin to revert back to what it should be....it re adapts to the norm.

we can agree to disagree on what adaptation means, but look at any smoker or drinker and you'll see that the body adapts...or tries to right until the moment when the veins of the esophagus begin to bleed and the liver explodes...or the lung air sacs can no longer open and close.....it can take years...for this all to happen..

we do agree that adaptation means adapting to the environment, and that includes what's eaten.

dogs would be healthier if they were fed more than chicken....it's a model of raw...not a particularly healthy one...and probably in this case, kelp would go a long way.

feeding raw is a model of feeding. a prey model....dogs in the wild eat berries. does that mean they are not eating a prey model?
no. it means they are attracted to sugar, as unhealthy as it is, but it gives energy...and i believe that dogs from generation to generation innately know things....that were passed down from their ancestors, the wolf...because even wolves will eat fruit and kelp and fish and all kinds of anything to stave off hunger.

we do what we need to do to survive.

now..do I think dogs need kelp? no....i looked up what's in kelp and everything i feed my dogs is a redundancy of kelp....however, for those who believe in the benefits of kelp, have at it and it doesn't mean they are not feeding a model of raw.....it's not your model.

i very much agree that we always have to be careful about the unseen, non speaking readers of any forum....there are things they will read and take for gospel and suddenly it is the 'thing' that must be added...since so many do not wish to do their own research..

however, it's not as if whiteleo has suggested gummy bears as part of a diet...kelp is a very healthy item, filled with all kinds of nutrients.....tripe, as i said before, is part of the raw puzzle and i think should be included....

i don't believe coconut oil is okay....i don't believe flax oil is okay. i have a list of ingredients i don't think are okay....for a variety of reasons, yet..people feed them. i have seen it recommended that if a dog is picky, add stinky parmesan cheese....i want to scream. 

there are far worse foods people feed as part of their raw model than kelp....

and if you want....perhaps say something to the effect that kelp is not a necessary part of the raw model, but there are those who believe that kelp is beneficial.....


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## KittyKat (Feb 11, 2011)

magicre said:


> i don't believe coconut oil is okay....i don't believe flax oil is okay. i have a list of ingredients i don't think are okay....for a variety of reasons, yet..people feed them. i have seen it recommended that if a dog is picky, add stinky parmesan cheese....i want to scream.


What are your reasons against coconut oil? Besides the fact that dogs don't need it...


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

i think for humans, cocounut oil is wonderful. it's good for our skin.....

if it's put on a dog's fur topically, sure.

but ingesting it.....no....they get enough fat from the food they eat.....and they get the kind of fat that works to ensure their health...but coconut oil is just fat and does not have the same properties as animal fat....

coconut oil is good for humans and human skin...i'll even go so far as to say it's good for a dog's fur, topically....but not something to ingest, especially if the dog is receiving adequate amounts of animal fat and varieties of animal fat...if a dog is being fed fat, why feed more fat? especially since dogs don't pee out fat, as they do water soluble ingredients, like kelp....the liver can only take so much.

but, that's just my opinion. : )


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## CavePaws (Jan 25, 2011)

Really? How is it used topically for people and dogs? I'm interested because I'm always looking for good ways to keep my skin healthy in a natural way...I feel like rubbing lotion on my skin that has synthetic stuff isn't always helpful! Especially cause I have sensitive skin.


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

CavePaws said:


> Really? How is it used topically for people and dogs? I'm interested because I'm always looking for good ways to keep my skin healthy in a natural way...I feel like rubbing lotion on my skin that has synthetic stuff isn't always helpful! Especially cause I have sensitive skin.


well, we're getting way off topic here, but food has always been useful to humans....egg yolks for shiny hair...egg whites as an astringent...olive oil baths.....

milk baths, coconut oil topically applied like a lotion, then pat it with a towel to get the excess off..you'll smell like coconuts, but you're skin will be satin....

lemons for your hair or limes as a rinse to get all the nasty leftover chemicals out plus lemons on your hair plus sun can give you highlights.

i don't want to go way off topic here, but any local library or bookstore will tell you how to use common ingredients as an effective way to improve your health....except flax seed oil and cod liver oil. stay away from them....they have laxative properties and the colon was not meant to work against itself.


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## KittyKat (Feb 11, 2011)

magicre said:


> i think for humans, cocounut oil is wonderful. it's good for our skin.....
> 
> if it's put on a dog's fur topically, sure.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the response! I was curious as my parents would give my dog coconut oil every once and awhile as she goes nuts for it... she would steal the crackers off the plate otherwise - it's like crack for her. I put some on my cats paw as it cracked a bit and i wanted something on there that he wouldn't lick and get sick from, but would help his skin... and she followed him around the house licking where he stepped, and then would try and lick his paw. Poor guy, she acted like he was a tasty treat. 

I was worried it might be bad for her, but if i put it on her topically... she would lick it off.

I put it in my hair once when my scalp was really dry, it did wonders... but my cat kept trying to lick my hair.


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

KittyKat said:


> Thanks for the response! I was curious as my parents would give my dog coconut oil every once and awhile as she goes nuts for it... she would steal the crackers off the plate otherwise - it's like crack for her. I put some on my cats paw as it cracked a bit and i wanted something on there that he wouldn't lick and get sick from, but would help his skin... and she followed him around the house licking where he stepped, and then would try and lick his paw. Poor guy, she acted like he was a tasty treat.
> 
> I was worried it might be bad for her, but if i put it on her topically... she would lick it off.
> 
> I put it in my hair once when my scalp was really dry, it did wonders... but my cat kept trying to lick my hair.


coconut oil tastes good..and smells good. if the cats and dogs lick it off, that is different than if you were to give them tablespoons of coconut oil....i use it on my dog's pads in the winter....i use it on my feet in the winter...

a little bit won't hurt them...and most likely the way people use it as a supplement won't hurt them...i just don't believe it's necessary as an additive to a raw diet. just sayin'.


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## RawFedDogs (Jun 16, 2008)

CavePaws said:


> IBut here is the argument that wolves and dogs won't share organs. They eat what they can manage to stuff their mouth with and I highly doubt each member of a pack is going to take a small bite out of an animals liver and leave the rest of it for the other members to get the nutrients they need.


This is the reason that a wolf/dog wouldn't get organs every meal but MAY get some organs with SOME meals at irregular intervals.


> I'm sure they hunt on their own at times, eating whole smaller prey items, so they would in fact be getting the amount of organ they need...But in no way will they find a meal of solely organs.


I agree.



> If we're going to slap a label on people, I don't think anyone around here is feeding the gold standard of what a PMR diet is said to be based on by so many - the feeding of what a dog or wolf would be getting in the wild - whole prey items and let's not forget anything they could scavenge off of that appeals.


We feed what we can to approximate whole prey eventhough as mentioned above, wolf/dogs wouldn't get to eat the whole prey animal. The pack would eat it together.



> Everyone here feeds a modified diet. Remember that, and let's not condemn the way other people feed.


Nobody is condeming anyone. I don't know where you are getting that. A person can make a statement that kelp isn't a normal part of a wolf/dog diet without condeming anyone.


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## naturalfeddogs (Jan 6, 2011)

JayJayisme said:


> The key word being "vegetable". With the exception of increasing fecal bulk (why?) and acting as a mild laxative, the PMR diet already does these things since it's a balanced diet. I'm looking for what kelp provides above and beyond what the PMR diet provides. Still, I have no idea why you would want to increase fecal bulk. Kibble does that too with all the fillers in it. What's the point?
> 
> Searching for answers.
> 
> Jay


 I agree. If you want laxatives, feed bone free meals for a couple of days. Or like me, who fed Copper liver last night, ran off to work today, came home this afternoon and BAM!!! Cannon Butt. Liver is a great laxative!!! I promise.


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## DaneMama (Jun 27, 2008)

naturalfeddogs said:


> I agree. If you want laxatives, feed bone free meals for a couple of days. Or like me, who fed Copper liver last night, ran off to work today, came home this afternoon and BAM!!! Cannon Butt. Liver is a great laxative!!! I promise.


Just clarifying...I don't like that you came home to cannon butt but do like your suggestion to a better technique as a laxative!!! Lol


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## CavePaws (Jan 25, 2011)

RFD, I knew in some ways I was wrong about dogs/wolves not getting organs at every meal, that is why I presented that side of the argument.

:]

Oh, no one has 'condemned' anyone, perhaps that word is too strong and I should have picked something better. I think I was just trying to say that we all stand on the same ground here as far as feeding raw goes, some people just modify their dogs diet with different items. And I do think that all of this "argument" has been friendly debate, so don't think I'm trying to be rude or anything, please!


edit: Oh -sigh- -__- I really hope there aren't harmed feelings!


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## Boxers&Pom's Mom (Jan 17, 2011)

It is the first time that i heard about it, but honestly it sound like a great product. It even said that is good for arthritis. I am agree that it can be something like a vitamin to assure we offer our dogs a balance diet. I will read more about it and I may added to my dogs diet.


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## RawFedDogs (Jun 16, 2008)

CavePaws said:


> And I do think that all of this "argument" has been friendly debate, so don't think I'm trying to be rude or anything, please!
> 
> 
> edit: Oh -sigh- -__- I really hope there aren't harmed feelings!


Hehe, If you are concerned about me, don't be. I have been in much more inflamed discussions than this without getting my feathers ruffled. :smile: I still think you are an amazing young lady. I am proud to have you on the board. :biggrin:


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## CavePaws (Jan 25, 2011)

Why thank ya!  I've seen my fair share of flames on a forum as well.  I'm not one to get my feathers ruffled too easily either.


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## hamblekg (Feb 1, 2011)

I add a sprinkle of kelp to the dogs meals; usually once a day. They are fed twice daily. I figure it can't hurt. It may not be something that they would get normally in a prey meal, but the extra vitamins just can not hurt them. Then again, I try not to get obsessive about this. They also get alfalfa sprinkled on once every day or two. But that is it for any additional supplements.


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## Ivy (Mar 16, 2011)

I read that adding kelp to a dogs diet will help with weight loss because the iodine speeds up thier metabolism.
So I wonder if for an overweight dog, if adding some kelp will help until the ideal weight is acheived.


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

and too much iodine can also cause problems....for the thyroid...


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## CorgiPaws (Mar 31, 2009)

CavePaws said:


> edit: Oh -sigh- -__- I really hope there aren't harmed feelings!


Takes a lot to harm the feelings of *most* of the long-time members around here. That's why we've lasted so long!! lol. :biggrin:


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## CorgiPaws (Mar 31, 2009)

tyti said:


> I read that adding kelp to a dogs diet will help with weight loss because the iodine speeds up thier metabolism.
> So I wonder if for an overweight dog, if adding some kelp will help until the ideal weight is acheived.



Hmm, it COULD... but at the same time, much like human weight loss aids, I would say it's probably healthier and safer to do it the good old fashioned way. Calories in. Calories out. Feed less, move more.


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

bubba's feelings are hurt.

: )


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

whiteleo said:


> I feed dried kelp once a week to my dogs in their fish/egg meal, this particular brand says to feed: dogs to 25 lbs 1/4 tsp. 25-50lbs 1/2 tsp. and 50lbs+ 1 tsp. cats 1/8 tsp. Here is the link if you like. Life Line Pet Nutrition Inc.


just a silly question, but the sea kelp they sell at the grocery store...is that not okay for dogs?


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## RawFedDogs (Jun 16, 2008)

Watching the news the last few days. They were talking about taking iodine pills for the radiation. Doctors advised against it because of possible side effects (vomiting, diarrhea, lethargy, sore muscles, and others I can't remember). Kelp is fed because it contains high amounts of iodine. Wonder if the same thing applies to feeding kelp? I don't know, just asking.


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

RawFedDogs said:


> Watching the news the last few days. They were talking about taking iodine pills for the radiation. Doctors advised against it because of possible side effects (vomiting, diarrhea, lethargy, sore muscles, and others I can't remember). Kelp is fed because it contains high amounts of iodine. Wonder if the same thing applies to feeding kelp? I don't know, just asking.


also just supposin'...don't the japanese already eat a lot of kelp in their food? wouldn't taking iodine for them kind of be overload?
i don't know either...


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## martye (Mar 9, 2011)

RFD,
is it the same kind of Iodine? the pills are potassium Iodine.

Be careful about feeding Kelp, too much can cause thyroid problems
Hyperthyroidism and all of it's associated symptoms.
Another thing to be aware of is Kelp is a natural filter of much of the crap we throw into
the ocean, kelp can have very high levels of pollutants, Arsenic being one of them.
Now, I'm not saying if you feed Kelp to your dog it's going to become hyperthyroid and have arsenic
poisoning, but be aware those are considerations for Kelp in both Humans and Dogs.

speaking of dogs, does anyone here talk about African Wild Dogs ( Cape Hunting dog) when we
talk about Prey model? wouldn't they be a better model than a wolf or coyote since they
are much closer to our ancestral dogs? 
I lived in South Africa for a number of years, and have to tell you they eat large ungulates almost
exclusively, are very successful hunters and significantly allow the young to eat first, thus the
young get the choice organ meat and the adults get the pickins.
I've never read anything about them eating grass, fruit, veggies etc. 
My dog Mouse eats grass, and not for an upset gut, he likes it, I don't know if its
the chewing that it satisfies, or he likes the taste or what. I figure it's causing no harm so I let
him. 

Marty


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## RawFedDogs (Jun 16, 2008)

martye said:


> speaking of dogs, does anyone here talk about African Wild Dogs ( Cape Hunting dog) when we
> talk about Prey model? wouldn't they be a better model than a wolf or coyote since they
> are much closer to our ancestral dogs?


They aren't much closer. Our domestic dogs ARE gray wolves. DNA evidence proves it.
_Evolution of the Family Dog
http://www.floridalupine.org/publications/PDF/Of_Wolves_and_Dogs--Dispelling_the_Myths.pdf_

and most importantly ...
_http://www.mnh.si.edu/GeneticsLab/StaffPage/MaldonadoJ/PublicationsCV/Heredity_Dog_Paper_1999.pdf_



> I lived in South Africa for a number of years, and have to tell you they eat large ungulates almost
> exclusively, are very successful hunters and significantly allow the young to eat first, thus the
> young get the choice organ meat and the adults get the pickins.
> I've never read anything about them eating grass, fruit, veggies etc.
> ...


That's cool but they are not our dogs. If you want to disucss this subject further, make another thread and I"ll be glad to discuss it with you. It's off topic for this thread.


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## whiteleo (Sep 7, 2008)

I'm not sure about the kelp that others feed but my kelp is grown specifically to be harvested off of Iceland. And if you look at the ingredients you will see that iodine is not a huge number.


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## CavePaws (Jan 25, 2011)

RawFedDogs said:


> They aren't much closer. Our domestic dogs ARE gray wolves. DNA evidence proves it.
> _Evolution of the Family Dog
> http://www.floridalupine.org/publications/PDF/Of_Wolves_and_Dogs--Dispelling_the_Myths.pdf_
> 
> ...


I'd like to get in on that too if the thread does get started....


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