# Bad Raw Diet



## TuckersMom (Apr 27, 2011)

Some of you have said that a bad raw diet is worse than a kibble diet. Can you give some examples of what a bad raw diet would look like? 

Thank you!

ETA: I am referring to a raw diet we provide rather than a commercial one. Thanks!


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## Ania's Mommy (Feb 8, 2009)

Hmmm... I'm not sure that I've heard that here... If anything, I'd say that the general consensus is that the worst raw diet is better than the best kibble diet.

To answer your question, I would say that (for me) a "bad" raw diet would be one with a lack of variety. So, feeding only chicken. But, again, if I had to feed only chicken or Orijen/Ziwipeak, I'd take the chicken any day of the week.


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## Tobi (Mar 18, 2011)

Yar... here is an example...

Bil Jac Raw food :lol:
Ingredients: Beef, meat by-products, cereal food fines, poultry, poultry meal, animal liver, fish meal, eggs, cane molasses, dried beet pulp, wheat germ meal

I won't go into why it is bad....

here is another one.
Addiction Dehydrated raw formulas...
Ingredients: Sweet potatoes, USDA turkey, whole egg, broccoli, celery, apples, flax meal, pecans, tricalcium phosphate, pumpkin, cranberries, basil, dried alfalfa, ginger root, dried kelp, zinc sulfate, vitamin E acetate, vitamin D2
laughable...

As far as a raw diet you're throwing together yourself i would say a lack of variety, and a lack of knowledge will lead to a bad diet. giving organs weekly, bones, and alot of good red meats are going to be a good diet, giving chicken bone in daily weeks on end... thats going to lead to problems. Raw is a lot easier than people make it out to be frankly.


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## rannmiller (Jun 27, 2008)

I would say a bad raw diet would be one that didn't have all three: meat, bones, and organs. I've heard of some people who just feed their dogs raw hamburger. That's it. Just raw hamburger. That is a bad raw diet, and I'd rather feed kibble than that. Or my mom's friend started her dogs off with just chicken drumsticks, no organs whatsoever. Don't worry, i set her straight :smile: 

However, I would say if one would feed a diet of just chicken with bones and organs too, but no other variety of protein sources, that would still be better than kibble.


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## rannmiller (Jun 27, 2008)

Tobi said:


> As far as a raw diet you're throwing together yourself i would say a lack of variety, and a lack of knowledge will lead to a bad diet. giving organs weekly, bones, and alot of good red meats are going to be a good diet, giving chicken bone in daily weeks on end... thats going to lead to problems. Raw is a lot easier than people make it out to be frankly.


I don't think there's anything wrong with giving chicken bone in daily, as long as they're giving other protein sources as the other meal. Peyton was getting a chicken leg quarter every night and something different almost every morning. Except three days a week, breakfast is CLQ with organ and dinner is a CLQ. Now that she's reached her ideal body condition, I'm going to try her on only getting a CLQ for dinner 4 or 5 times a week. Trying to figure out her maintenance amount now. Either way, I could not have afforded to get her to her perfect body condition without feeding her CLQs daily and she will still get them almost daily.


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## Tobi (Mar 18, 2011)

rannmiller said:


> I don't think there's anything wrong with giving chicken bone in daily, as long as they're giving other protein sources as the other meal. Peyton was getting a chicken leg quarter every night and something different almost every morning. Except three days a week, breakfast is CLQ with organ and dinner is a CLQ. Now that she's reached her ideal body condition, I'm going to try her on only getting a CLQ for dinner 4 or 5 times a week. Trying to figure out her maintenance amount now. Either way, I could not have afforded to get her to her perfect body condition without feeding her CLQs daily and she will still get them almost daily.


I said only bone in chicken... meaning NOTHING ELSE ever...

It is fine for starting out, because the system needs time to adjust, but if they are still only feeding CLQ's a year into it and they aren't feeding organs or any other variety they will most likely have problems.


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## rannmiller (Jun 27, 2008)

Oh gotcha, the way you worded it made it sound like feeding it daily was a bad thing, but you mean feeding that and only that daily. since you said "giving chicken bone in daily weeks on end... thats going to lead to problems" that's why i responded the way I did since you didn't specify. Thanks for clearing that up :smile:


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## Tobi (Mar 18, 2011)

you would be suprised at how many peole on other forums are like my dog is acting really wierd and tired all the time...

Q. My dog is losing weight on a raw diet, and he's acting really wierd all the time like tired and stuff...
A.how much are you feeding how long has he been on raw?
Q. about a chicken a week give or take he's been on a raw diet for 7 months.
A. How about organs and other meats? 
Q. no just chicken, and sometimes some chicken livers and hearts.

that is a real convo between on person and another no a different forum... i was floored that somebody would just go and feed like that without really properly researching it.


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## RawFedDogs (Jun 16, 2008)

Tobi said:


> I said only bone in chicken... meaning NOTHING ELSE ever...
> 
> It is fine for starting out, because the system needs time to adjust, but if they are still only feeding CLQ's a year into it and they aren't feeding organs or any other variety they will most likely have problems.


_"When I ran a busy veterinary practice, many of my clients fed almost exclusively chicken backs and frames -- whether to adult dogs or litters of puppies -- and their animals showed excellent health."_Dr. Tom Lonsdale Work Wonders Page 25


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## SerenityFL (Sep 28, 2010)

My pets get a lot of chicken. A lot. They do get organs and some pork, from time to time....on rare occasions, they get beef...rare occasions...and an egg every so often, turkey sometimes, venison if I have it...(which, reminds me, I need to give them the rest of that this week before I go)...

But mostly...they get chicken. The reason is, chicken is about the most inexpensive thing to buy and helps me afford to keep them on raw.


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## KC23 (Nov 17, 2010)

I also think a "bad raw diet" would be one where bone and/or organ meat is missing from the diet. 

My dogs eat bone-in chicken for dinner pretty much every day. Occasionally, they have boneless chicken for breakfast, but they usually have beef, pork, fish or turkey. They get their organ meat (liver & kidney), and they get some eggs too. I count on getting large amounts of leg quarters or backs at a good price to be able to feed this way.


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## CavePaws (Jan 25, 2011)

RawFedDogs said:


> _"When I ran a busy veterinary practice, many of my clients fed almost exclusively chicken backs and frames -- whether to adult dogs or litters of puppies -- and their animals showed excellent health."_Dr. Tom Lonsdale Work Wonders Page 25


That sounds pretty darn unhealthy to me...Wonder what the almost stands for in almost exclusively. If it's organs then it may not be so bad...


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## Nani (Apr 14, 2010)

The worst raw diet I've heard or at least one of the worst was ground beef and chopped veggies only! No bone no organ.


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## whiteleo (Sep 7, 2008)

I personally think chicken exclusive of organs and bones is a pretty bad raw diet, JMO! They also need FISH..................


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## Ania's Mommy (Feb 8, 2009)

Just to be clear, I meant whole chicken. Inclusive of bone and organs. :wink:


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

RawFedDogs said:


> _"When I ran a busy veterinary practice, many of my clients fed almost exclusively chicken backs and frames -- whether to adult dogs or litters of puppies -- and their animals showed excellent health."_Dr. Tom Lonsdale Work Wonders Page 25


i remember reading that and i can't see how that's possible...given they are lacking in nutrients necessary for health.

although, i would imagine their teeth and gums were healthy. i think tom lonsdale has done a great service to the world, bringing raw meaty bones to the forefront.....but only eating chicken frames and backs?

the backs probably had the kidneys still attached, so the dog got organ...certainly they had bone...and if the frame and back had meat on it and wasn't stripped down, then they got more than just a little meat and a lot of bone...and they got fat if the fat were not stripped off.

which means they got their zinc for the day....

but every animal protein offers different and necessary , sorry, brain won't engage for the words i want here....but the good stuff, vitamins, enzymes and the lot....

to eat chicken every day and be healthy? i don't see it.


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## eternalstudent (Jul 22, 2010)

If dogs can live on a diet of primarily fruit then I think they would be able to survive on just chicken. I think there is more to health than simply the diet that they eat. Chickens eat a wide range of foods and have nearly all the essential requirements for a dog. That coupled with a good active life I am sure they would be healthy.

Don't get me wrong here though. They would not be as healthy as they can be, but there is a far cry from ideal and kibble fed. 

Humans can survive on just chicken or eggs with a good supply of fresh water. 

That being said.....

I will always feed as much variety as I can


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

eternalstudent said:


> If dogs can live on a diet of primarily fruit then I think they would be able to survive on just chicken. I think there is more to health than simply the diet that they eat. Chickens eat a wide range of foods and have nearly all the essential requirements for a dog. That coupled with a good active life I am sure they would be healthy.
> 
> Don't get me wrong here though. They would not be as healthy as they can be, but there is a far cry from ideal and kibble fed.
> 
> ...


i agree.....and i agree with the word you used...'survive'....but they would not be thriving..which i thought was the whole idea...: )


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## Northwoods10 (Nov 22, 2010)

SerenityFL said:


> My pets get a lot of chicken. A lot. They do get organs and some pork, from time to time....on rare occasions, they get beef...rare occasions...and an egg every so often, turkey sometimes, venison if I have it...(which, reminds me, I need to give them the rest of that this week before I go)...
> 
> But mostly...they get chicken. The reason is, chicken is about the most inexpensive thing to buy and helps me afford to keep them on raw.


Our dogs mostly get chicken & turkey for their bone in. Sometimes pork ribs. 

For boneless I offer beef, pork, turkey, venison & tripe when available. Mostly beef though. They do get A LOT of chicken, but that is a staple that makes it affordable for us. And obviously they get their organ meat as well. 

Sometimes I wish I could offer more variety, and they could get something new everyday, but then I remind myself that this is still wayyyy better than any kibble out there!


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## eternalstudent (Jul 22, 2010)

I think we come from this discussion from trying to feed the best and have the best health in our animals. (which is what I think every animal owner should be striving for). However, what I got from reading his book was that the dogs would be better if fed nothing but chicken, compared to the majority of kibbles. 

I think it is a great shame but when I speak to people they think that 6 - 8 is old for a dog (GSD, rotti, colie) this to me is madness and anything that changes this has to be for the best. Chicken is the cheapest of all meats, and probably the most accessible, and if we are lucky then it would lead to closer to the PMR ideal


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## Savage Destiny (Mar 16, 2011)

Perfect example of a "bad" raw diet? 

Raw ground turkey and a mix of broccoli, cabbage, carrots, and a couple other veggies. Nothing else. And yes, this was really a diet someone was feeding and calling raw.


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## chowder (Sep 7, 2008)

My MIL feeds a cooked homemade diet that she got from somewhere and her vet said it was fine for her dogs but I personally think it is TOTALLY inadequate. It is always ground turkey, canned tomatoes, spinach, and some other vegies ( she has a specific list) all cooked to death into a big mush. Sometime she puts one egg into the big pot. The dogs love it but it never changes and never varies. I tried to convince her to at least add canned fish or some beef or pork once in awhile but this is the diet as written so this is what they get. Plus, the VET said it was good !


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## Tobi (Mar 18, 2011)

RawFedDogs said:


> _"When I ran a busy veterinary practice, many of my clients fed almost exclusively chicken backs and frames -- whether to adult dogs or litters of puppies -- and their animals showed excellent health."_Dr. Tom Lonsdale Work Wonders Page 25


I don't know anything about australia's Livestock or how they keep chickens down there, but i know here commercial chickens are mostly loaded up on corn and finished that way, to me that chicken isn't healthy so i can't see how feeding just an unhealthy animal is going to keep your animal healthy.... now this says when he ran a busy practice, how long ago could that have been? 15-20 years ago? alot has changed in that time, his patients could have been getting free range all natural farm chickens where they were at, I personally would make chicken a main source at that point and feed chicken organs etc, but i just wouldn't do it with this chicken we have here unless it was non commercial raised chicken just my opinion of an unhealthy diet .


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

in all truth, the worst chicken is better than a kibble diet...which is processed to the point of ---my god might as well eat cardboard...and maybe that's dr. lonsdale's point....

unfortunately, tho, those who read that statement sometimes are influenced by it, so they subject their dogs to frames and backs for life....and as it's been said many times on this board and others....what we say here might be read by lurkers who don't ask what we mean or they take literally what we say....


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## TuckersMom (Apr 27, 2011)

To answer your question said:


> This is good to hear. I'm so afraid that I am going to do something wrong/leave out some critical nutrient, etc. (I've started raw but am not full raw yet).


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## TuckersMom (Apr 27, 2011)

chowder said:


> My MIL feeds a cooked homemade diet that she got from somewhere and her vet said it was fine for her dogs but I personally think it is TOTALLY inadequate. It is always ground turkey, canned tomatoes, spinach, and some other vegies ( she has a specific list) all cooked to death into a big mush. Sometime she puts one egg into the big pot. The dogs love it but it never changes and never varies. I tried to convince her to at least add canned fish or some beef or pork once in awhile but this is the diet as written so this is what they get. Plus, the VET said it was good !


I used to think kibble was good! How stupid could I be! I feel like blinders have been taken off my eyes and I now see how inadequate kibble really is! And now I feel bad for all the dogs who only get the same kibble day in and day out


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## TuckersMom (Apr 27, 2011)

Savage Destiny said:


> Perfect example of a "bad" raw diet?
> 
> Raw ground turkey and a mix of broccoli, cabbage, carrots, and a couple other veggies. Nothing else. And yes, this was really a diet someone was feeding and calling raw.


I'm just curious, do you think that is better than a kibble diet even though it is a "bad" raw diet?


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## TuckersMom (Apr 27, 2011)

Tobi said:


> Yar... here is an example...
> 
> Bil Jac Raw food :lol:
> Ingredients: Beef, meat by-products, cereal food fines, poultry, poultry meal, animal liver, fish meal, eggs, cane molasses, dried beet pulp, wheat germ meal
> ...


 Wow, that Bill Jac is horrible! I can't imagine anyone thinking that is good, but then again, I used to think kibble was good....


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