# beyond frustrated



## magicre

:usa::usa::usa::usa::usa::usa:


----------



## Huginn

Have you looked at MSM? We give it to our old horses and even the young ones in the winter when the cold is hard on their joints. Here's a little article on it. I don't know if this is the route you are looking to go, but it is an idea. I don't know much about herbal remedies sadly. 

Sulfur - MSM - methyl sulfonyl methane - Natural Health Site


----------



## magicre

:usa::usa::usa::usa::usa:


----------



## Huginn

I wish I was more familiar with joint health. . . But most of the human ones should work I think.


----------



## luvMyBRT

What about just raw chicken feet? Or are you looking for something more?
I give Lucky chicken feet and a tripe/trachea/gullet mix. She seems to be doing well with it.


----------



## magicre

:usa::usa::usa::usa::usa:


----------



## Mondo

Tuffy has been on Flexicose for 5 years now. He has severe arthritis, but gets around remarkably well. Vets often comment on how bad is arthritis is, and yet he really rarely limps. Although his good leg is giving him trouble lately. More likely his hip is getting arthritic. He's had the wiggle as a puppy, indicating hip issues.

I like this stuff, and it seems to help:

Flexicose® Official Website


----------



## Kat

Have you tried HomeoPet joint stress? Here's the link: HomeoPet - Joint Stress

And it has arnica which I know is an amazing natural pain reliever. My friend sprained her foot and didnt feel comfortable taking tylenol 3's, so her boyfriends dad who is all into natural stuff gave her arnica oil and she would just rub that on the area every few hours and it did wonders for her.


----------



## Scarlett_O'

Re...this is pure, no fillers, MSM: AniMed Pure MSM - Statelinetack.com


----------



## Kat

Scarlett_O' said:


> Re...this is pure, no fillers, MSM: AniMed Pure MSM - Statelinetack.com


That package looks familiar, I think my friend may have used that with her burnese mountain dog.


----------



## catahoulamom

I'm just recommending two supplements that I have used and had great results with, they are very high quality, haven't checked to see if they do/don't have the additives...

Nuviflex
Amazon.com: Olympus Brands NuviFlex Dog Hip and Joint Formula 150, Beef Flavored Chewable Tablets: Pet Supplies
K9 Liquid Health Glucosamine 
Liquid Health K-9 Glucosamine Hip and Joint Formula 32 oz


----------



## magicre

:usa::usa::usa::usa::usa:


----------



## Roo

What about trying some plain Hyaluronic acid, or Microlactin? I know both of these really made a difference for my Mom's lab with his arthritis along with acupuncture treatments. Maybe some Bromelain and Quercetin for inflammation, I'm not sure how effective they are for dogs, but I know Quercetin works better for me than fish oil for inflammation.


----------



## magicre

:usa::usa::usa::usa::usa::usa:


----------



## Chocx2

I read an article written by a holistic vet, she preferred raw food, like trachea, and herbs.. I used some of this with my injured dog. Don't know if it worked or the rehab worked or maybe all.

Just a thought


----------



## Ania's Mommy

Re, it's stevia. It could be worse. Much worse. If I HAD to choose a sweetener, I couldn't choose much better. And it's probably only in there to make it palatable. There isn't much stivia in there anyway. It's the second to last inactive ingredient listed.

I give Ania 4 teaspoons of the K9 Liquid Health (K9 Glucosamine | Liquid Health). I figure there's (at the absolute worst) 1/4 teaspoon of stevia per day, and I'm fairly certain that I'm overestimating. I can handle that. Especially since I notice a marked difference in Ania since giving it.

It be o-tay. :smile:

ETA: The glucosamine database closes tomorrow. Just sayin'...


----------



## Unosmom

Have you looked a hyaluronic acid? I have some pain in my knee and I've been taking it for 3 weeks and it seems to have taken care of the problem, I also take fish oil.


----------



## magicre

:usa::usa::usa::usa::usa::usa:


----------



## magicre

:usa::usa::usa::usa::usa:


----------



## magicre

:usa::usa::usa::usa::usa::usa:


----------



## magicre

:usa::usa::usa::usa::usa:


----------



## malluver1005

What about a series of adequan injections and then monthly after that? They help rebuild cartilage...


----------



## Imgliniel

hmmm..

ok, herbal blend, The one I see thatyou may not like is the microcrystaline cellulose. But no soy or sugar (but it does have maltodextrin, is that a sugar? gonna admit not an expert in this area, haha) or corn syrup

Only Natural Pet Get Up Go Dog Cat Supplement

Genesis Resources Joint Support Plus Dog Supplement or maybe this? Most of what I see is herbs or the glocosamine type stuff, there is the cellulose again, I am thinking it must be there to help hold things together or be an anti caking etc.

I thought she was doing much better with Tumeric? Did I stop following your thread to soon?


----------



## Scarlett_O'

magicre said:


> ok, i give up.
> 
> i ordered the liquid health....it has the least offensive amounts of additives in it and, whilst i will NEVER understand that adding stevia is okay for dogs or humans....
> 
> i hope it works, because my delaying is hurting her.....


My Mum has my sister's 16 year old Lhasa on it.....she is RUNNING up and down stairs(only one flight at a time....but for a dog who couldnt even climb the 3 steps up the doggy stairs to my sister's bed when I was there a month ago that is HUGE!!!:thumb

Also did you see the link for the no additive MSM I posted???


----------



## The Expert

I didnt read through everything, but you should look at a higher supplementation of Omega 3 specifically EPA and DHA. Some trials have shown that they work at the joint level to decrease inflammation. Also look into green lipped mussels they have been giving some really good trial results for dogs who couldnt even walk. I am not sure if you can find a supplement form of it. I tried for my horse, only things were in Europe and they couldnt pass the boarder  stupid laws! You could try adding it to the diet? 
From what I have learned the form found in joints and cartilage is not very effective once it passes the gasto intestinal tract, and that is why we add it directly into formulas. At this we even have to add it in a form so it can a) make it past the stomach in one piece and b) actually make it across the intestinal wall. But I am sure some still does make it.


----------



## magicre

:usa::usa::usa::usa::usa:


----------



## magicre

:usa::usa::usa::usa::usa:


----------



## magicre

Scarlett_O' said:


> My Mum has my sister's 16 year old Lhasa on it.....she is RUNNING up and down stairs(only one flight at a time....but for a dog who couldnt even climb the 3 steps up the doggy stairs to my sister's bed when I was there a month ago that is HUGE!!!:thumb
> 
> Also did you see the link for the no additive MSM I posted???


no, i didn't see a no additive msm that you posted...i got the vegetarian version with hyaluronic acid.....so we'll see....

what's wrong with msm? you mean, i missed something? OH NO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


----------



## magicre

:usa::usa::usa::usa::usa:


----------



## Imgliniel

If you want to try some herbals you can always get them in bulk form. Just dried herbs, no additives, like loose leaf tea, and add them to your veggie mix. Please note that I know herbs really well for PEOPLE, now, absorbtion in dogs is not something I have done alot of study on. But I imagine it would be along the same lines as veggies, as long as you make the active constituents available through breaking down the cell wall they can use them. Have you tried Boswellia? It is an eastern (chinese medicine type) herb that is showing some serieous promise against arthritis. Boswelia and Tumeric are ussually the first ones I recomend to people, but since you tried Tumeric, maybe give Boswelia a shot?

OOOOH! looky 

Clinical studies have also shown boswellia to benefit patients with arthritis. An uncontrolled study on dogs with arthritis showed a significant reduction in the severity of clinical signs.23 A human study on patients with osteoarthritis of the knee showed that boswellia decreased pain and swelling and increased range of motion and endurance.24

http://www.veterinarypracticenews.c...medicine/bountiful-benefits-of-boswellia.aspx


----------



## magicre

:usa::usa::usa::usa::usa:


----------



## Scarlett_O'

magicre said:


> my sincere apologies. i don't know how i missed this...as i had stated to huginn, i had wanted more ingredients than just MSM...but hey, thanks.
> 
> i ordered the damned liquid health...the one debbie ordered......
> 
> and just an FYI...stevia is not so harmless....unless you chew on the plant leaves. it still has to be processed into those cute little crystals and that is why stevia is not a good thing.....this is for ania's mommy, not you, abi.


No worries...that is why I asked you about it...I figured that you just didnt see it!:biggrin:
Ya, I saw that you said to Tiff that you wanted more then just MSM.....but you can mix it with what ever, and just get the things that you are wanting and mix your self, yes?:smile:
(That was my thought at least!:tongue


----------



## Ania's Mommy

magicre said:


> i ordered the damned liquid health...the one debbie ordered......


I really do think you'll notice a difference. Really. I think it's pretty good stuff. 



magicre said:


> and just an FYI...stevia is not so harmless....unless you chew on the plant leaves. it still has to be processed into those cute little crystals and that is why stevia is not a good thing.....this is for ania's mommy, not you, abi.


I never said it was harmless. I said that if a sweetener had to be used, I'd want it to be stevia. And if a minuscule amount of stevia per day was the only "crappy" thing Ania gets, well, I'm okay with that. 

I mean, really, we feed our babies the best of the best, I feel. A prey model raw diet comprised of a variety of animals that are mostly antibiotic/hormone free, grass fed, and humanely treated. A small amount of sugar a day doesn't bother me too much.

Is there something out there that could be used that is better and/or has less "filler"? Maybe. But, dammit, I really hate researching. I've already found a product that works well and I can sleep at night. 

I understand that you want something that is perfect. And you SHOULDN'T settle. In fact, I think it's awesome that you're still looking. And believe me, when you find the perfect thing, I'll be jumping all over it and eternally grateful (yeah, I'm a lazy mofo and will reap the benefits of your research while doing none of my own). But in the meantime, while you're looking, give the sugar laden Liquid Health! :becky:

ETA: I just saw that you ordered the vegetarian glucosamine. How come vegetarian?


----------



## magicre

:usa::usa::usa::usa::usa::usa:


----------



## Ania's Mommy

magicre said:


> and you're right.





magicre said:


> and you're right.





magicre said:


> and you're right.





magicre said:


> and you're right.


(I just wanted to post that part a few more times)




> want to split that case of saw scraps with me?


 I can't! I've got two cases of venison heart a'comin' next week, and I have NO idea where I'm going to keep it all. I couldn't possibly add another 25lbs! And anyway, I thought Dennis grounded you from ordering more stuff. Sounds like an intervention may be in order... 



> i think you and i had an unspoken deal...that i would research and you would benefit. anything for you, darling. LOL
> 
> i am more than happy, seriously, to do the research and once i find what i'm looking for, i will shout it to the world.....it's my thang, ya know to research.....


I'm glad we could come to an understanding. :tongue:


----------



## magicre

:usa::usa::usa::usa:


----------



## Ania's Mommy

Oh good! I'm glad you found a splitter. Have you and Abi met before? If not, I can tell you that you're both in for a real treat. :becky: Try not to take her out Commie spy/Philly gangsta style. She's one of the good guys.

And about that chanisaw pic? Way to blow my cover with your comment. Sheesh. I try to look like a badass one time, and get called out on it.


----------



## NZ Raw

magicre said:


> i have been looking for a supplement for my old girl and her joints.
> 
> each and every supp i have found has lecithin in it or soy outright or stevia or liver flavouring or rice bran or or or or ad nauseum.
> 
> is there either a homeopathic chew or pill or liquid that you recommend? or a remedy you all use.
> 
> i have tried curcumin and ginseng and it's not doing what she needs.
> 
> i had found something online and of course, lost the page for a product that had lots of cool homeopathics or at the very least, it didn't have all those additives.
> 
> it can be chewable or a pill or a liquid....
> 
> but the additives have to be at a minimum.
> 
> so far, i've looked at :
> 
> glycoflex
> nupro silver
> nuvet
> arthroplex
> 
> the only one, so far, that i've found to be the least offensive is hylasport canine....
> 
> sigh.


What about deer velvet. Deer Velvet, Antler Products by Silberhorn.co.nz
found some info on elk 
Elk velvet antler helps dogs with arthritis


----------



## magicre

:usa::usa::usa::usa::usa:


----------



## NZ Raw

Found this to :Benefits of Deer Velvet for dogs
and Deer Velvet For Dogs.
actually there is heaps of info .lol


----------



## magicre

:usa::usa::usa::usa::usa:


----------



## magicre

:usa::usa::usa::usa::usa::usa:


----------



## DeekenDog

What about lubrisyn? I know a lot of dogs at the clinic have taken it with really good success. Also, my dad takes the human version and has found it really helps with his arthritis (he has severe psoriatic arthritis). I couldn't find the ingredients for the canine version but I believe they are the same as the equine version. If you're interested I would check with the company though. LubriSyn (473 mL) 32 doses


----------



## magicre

:usa::usa::usa::usa::usa::usa:


----------



## Caty M

I would use human supplements.. I feel that the human vitamin/supplement industry is going to be better regulated than the dog one.


----------



## magicre

:usa::usa::usa::usa::usa:


----------



## magicre

:usa::usa::usa::usa::usa::usa:


----------



## DeekenDog

there's also bio iso g/bio iso g plus. These are veterinary only products though, it might be hard to find.


----------



## magicre

:usa::usa::usa::usa::usa::usa:


----------



## Ania's Mommy

That stuff you found at Mud Bay looks pretty good. I just love Mud Bay, don't you?!

Another plus for the Liquid Health is that it's liquid. And according to Debbie's research (yep, my research stealing extends far and wide), supplements in their liquid form are MUCH more easily absorbed. Whatchu think about that? 

And if this is true (I strongly suspect that it is because it makes a lot of sense to me), if you dissolved the Mud Bay powder in a liquid, would that make it the same as a liquid in terms of absorbson? Or do you think that there's no coming back from powder?


----------



## magicre

:usa::usa::usa::usa::usa::usa:


----------



## Liz

Mud Bay is my puppy socialization place - not too high traffic, very clean and they offer treats that are basically dehydrated meat. They also have killer clearances on collars and leashes. I can't afford anything not on clearance though. LOL


----------



## whiteleo

Maybe this will help someone out....It was just brought up on my B.T. raw forum and it is suppose to be all natural, the OP said it was a noticeable difference on her dog







*System Saver*


----------



## Herzo

Thanks I have book marked this and am going to read more when I get time. I'm not sure but I think I may need something for Maddie. She has since I've had her not tracked right in her hind end. It doesn't seem to slow her down but she drags her hind legs a little. I asked the new vet girl and she said it sounded like maybe she had a pinched nerve in her back at some point and there wasn't that much I could do about it. That maybe she couldn't feel her hind legs so well.

I'm not sure if there is anything I can do but it won't hurt to try.


----------



## magicre

:usa::usa::usa::usa::usa::usa:


----------



## whiteleo

magicre said:


> the two that i found were both glucosamine based, i think...
> 
> one is connectin and the other is arthro aid.
> 
> the more i read about glucosamine and chondroitin, the less i am enamoured with them....plus, i'm not sure i like the idea of feeding shell fish based remedies to my dogs...when shell fish are not species appropriate and often times, people and dogs can develop a sensitivity..
> 
> recent news reports talks about glucosamine and chondroitin and many state they are not the wonder solution once thought to be.
> 
> so i shall looked at this product too...thank you, robin...as soon as they tell me what the natural flavours are....i may well get it for the dogs and the human one looks good too


I just sent this link to my twice a month boss, there are two horses in the barn who would benefit from this...The killer for you might be the natural flavors but lets hope it is something you can live with..


----------



## magicre

:usa::usa::usa::usa::usa:


----------



## rockysdad

Hi Magicre,

I really appreciate all your research to find the best supplement that works for our beloved dogs. I had to sign up to ask you what you would recommend so far?

I actually have been using the Liquid Health supplement, but the K5000 stronger version for about a week now and it seems like its been very hard on my dog Rocky, he's a 50lbs husky and just turned 11 recently. He just threw up a couple hours ago and im pretty sure its because of the supplement. He does seem to have a more sensitive stomach nowadays, but this supplement he hasn't liked from day 1 and ive had to use a syringe to feed him the supplement in the morning and at night.

I am thinking of getting the regular version which might be a little less hard on his stomach. I havent noticed a difference with the k5000 liquid health supplement, it actually seemed to make him worse and have a harder time to get up.

What would you recommend getting? What have you been using for your dogs? I was thinking of switching to the Connectin you found? Or should i just try the liquid health regular version?

Thanks for all your help, I'm also out there researching the best supplement for our dogs. You might find this article interesting as it compares the main active ingredients in some of these supplements. That is how I ended up choosing the Liquid Health...

http://www.campcanine.com/articles/GlucosamineComparison.pdf

Let me know what you or anyone else researching this thinks!

Thanks,

P.S. I will also PM you this in case you dont get back into this thread...


----------



## rockysdad

Hi Magicre,

I really appreciate all your research to find the best supplement that works for our beloved dogs. I had to sign up to ask you what you would recommend so far?

I actually have been using the Liquid Health supplement, but the K5000 stronger version for about a week now and it seems like its been very hard on my dog Rocky, he's a 50lbs husky and just turned 11 recently. He just threw up a couple hours ago and im pretty sure its because of the supplement. He does seem to have a more sensitive stomach nowadays, but this supplement he hasn't liked from day 1 and ive had to use a syringe to feed him the supplement in the morning and at night.

I am thinking of getting the regular version which might be a little less hard on his stomach. I havent noticed a difference with the k5000 liquid health supplement, it actually seemed to make him worse and have a harder time to get up.

What would you recommend getting? What have you been using for your dogs? I was thinking of switching to the Connectin you found? Or should i just try the liquid health regular version?

Thanks for all your help, I'm also out there researching the best supplement for our dogs. You might find this article interesting as it compares the main active ingredients in some of these supplements. That is how I ended up choosing the Liquid Health...

http://www.campcanine.com/articles/GlucosamineComparison.pdf

Let me know what you or anyone else researching this thinks!

Thanks,

P.S. I will also PM you this in case you dont get back into this thread...


----------



## magicre

:usa::usa::usa::usa::usa:


----------



## bullyBug

Have you looked at wholistic canine complete? The Wholistic Pet: Wholistic Canine Complete Joint Mobility

Cosequin DS has some of the stuff that you don't want, but for my GSD it was the difference between being able to jump in to the car on his own or not.


----------



## magicre

:usa::usa::usa::usa::usa::usa:


----------



## rockysdad

Thanks for the info magicre.

Just out of curiosity, since you do a lot of research like me, what do you feed your dog/dogs on a regular basis, as far as foods (canned or dry) that I can buy from the store?

Interested to see what you like as far as dog foods/brands.

I've tried Blue buffalo, but found something I didnt like (I believe a recall) so I have switched to Wellness since (about 2 years ago). What do you think about Wellness? What would you recommend more?

I know the best would be to cook for him and give him all natural foods, but at this time I really dont have that much free time to do that...

And as far as supplements, I just got the regular version Liquid Health so hopefully it works out better this time  I was also giving him Greenies Joint care, but I'll stop now that Im giving him the Liquid health.


----------



## magicre

:usa::usa::usa::usa::usa:


----------



## xellil

rockysdad said:


> Thanks for the info magicre.
> 
> Just out of curiosity, since you do a lot of research like me, what do you feed your dog/dogs on a regular basis, as far as foods (canned or dry) that I can buy from the store?
> 
> Interested to see what you like as far as dog foods/brands.
> 
> I've tried Blue buffalo, but found something I didnt like (I believe a recall) so I have switched to Wellness since (about 2 years ago). What do you think about Wellness? What would you recommend more?
> 
> I know the best would be to cook for him and give him all natural foods, but at this time I really dont have that much free time to do that...
> 
> And as far as supplements, I just got the regular version Liquid Health so hopefully it works out better this time  I was also giving him Greenies Joint care, but I'll stop now that Im giving him the Liquid health.


Where do you live? If I was feeding dry dog food I would feed Victor but it's not available everywhere. They have a small manufacturing plant and they source almost 100 percent of their ingredients from within 200 miles of the plant.


----------



## IslandPaws4Raw

You guys might think I'm nuts.... but just thinking out loud. Just smack me Re if this is stupid.

What about copper? I don't know how you would put it safely on a dog, maybe a copper band on the inside of a collar?

I know that somehow it really helps with joint issues. I've never researched it, but I started wearing a bracelet years ago when I was having stiffness issues with my knees. After a while the stiffness went away completely. I am going to buy myself another one soon because I'm starting to get the same thing in my hip joints at night now.


----------



## magicre

:usa::usa::usa::usa::usa:


----------

