# malia and bubba's hair seems to be thinning



## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

y'all know they eat a variety of foods, get enough bones...and organ...

bubba the pug - belly hair seems thinner...has one tiny spot on his back foot that has no hair. it's a circle about 1 mm around.

malia's hair is soft still but not as thick.

bubba's hair on his back and head and tail - glossy....


they are both happy, energetic, eyes bright, noses wet.....they seem fine...

but bubba's belly seems thinner and coarser and malia's fur isn't quite as thick.

any thoughts?


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## funshine (Jan 21, 2010)

Could this be seasonal shedding just a bit too early? I would think that could happen off the regular schedule. Or not?
Just a thought though...
It doesn't really explain the bold spot hwell: That could be just from biting?

Hopefully it'll go away and won't bother the dogs ever :smile:


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

actually, they seem to be shedding less....

the only thing that we've added to their diet are raw eggs..

they used to get them once in a great while.

lately they have been getting them once a week....i did read that it's possible for eggs to cause thinning hair....so maybe?


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## DaneMama (Jun 27, 2008)

Is it possible to decrease their bone intake at all? I know they had a rough time switching and need a lot of bone compared to other dogs. A friend of mine was noticing the same issues with their dog's coat and she decreased the amount of bone and increased the amount of red meats and noticed a big difference in coat quality within a few weeks.

When was the last time they had bloodwork done?


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

well, it's malia who seems to require more bone than bubba....

they get quite a bit of red meat.....actually, more red meat, lamb, venison, than chicken fish or turkey....

the only thing new for them regularly are eggs and lamb lung is totally new for them...

i'm going to eliminate the eggs first.....and increase the red meats....they get chicken frames every three to four meals....which is about how long they can go without loose stools....

i'm also going to make their liver/kidney pieces a little smaller, which will also help with stools...

and then we'll see....

how does that sound?


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## DaneMama (Jun 27, 2008)

Sounds like a good plan to me. It just takes a little bit of tweaking of things to get it ideal for each dog. 

I would also think about doing bloodwork on the both of them if you haven't already just to make sure nothing else is going on.

Any way you can take good, detailed photos of what your seeing and post them here?


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

i would, nat....except i have a crappy camera and they are very black dogs....but i'll see what i can do...

it's not patches of lost hair...it's just thinner, especially his belly...more noticeable on bubba than malia....

i probably should ask my groomer if she's furminating which also could explain it....she does have free rein with my kids....she's like their godmother LOL

malia is scheduled for a geriatric panel now that she's eleven...so i might as well have a blood draw for both to make sure they aren't hypo something.....

it's confusing because they act normal...there seems to be no reason for it..


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## DaneMama (Jun 27, 2008)

How often do they get groomed? 

Shiloh's coat is much thinner right now than normal because we have had such an unseasonably warm winter. Her big, fluffy winter coat came in and then it all came out about a month ago. She looks plain pathetic.


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

they are groomed every six weeks....bathed, really......and ears cleaned out...nails clipped..

anal glands expressed and hair shaved off around the anus because, well, i think that's self explanatory...

i just noticed it really about a week ago....because he is such a small dog...lays on his back for that belly scritch..i was going to make this one my avatar...but i have no pics that are 19.5 kb.....i think that's what it says...so couldn't upload another one, even though the one i have now is larger than 19.5kb...

at any rate....it's evenly thin....so maybe that's what it is....

i always look at fur as the first line of defence, just like skin is for humans...and when i'm feeling both dogs constantly....even malia, with her thick mutt corgi part of her seems not so thick...

it's been warm and cold here...quite annoying weather actually....think that might be it?

i'm going to have to get a photobucket account and then i can upload pics to there....

PS...their rough beginning (mostly malia) is over....she needs a little more bone than bubba....maybe it's cause she is older....but other than that...she's just getting older and both have transitioned perfectly....DFC poster dogs.


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## JayJayisme (Aug 2, 2009)

Slightly OT but I'm curious to know why you have your dogs anal glands expressed. One of the outstanding benefits of raw feeding is how their firm poop presses on these glands during a bowel movement to "express" them naturally. It's the "soft serve" poop that kibble causes that has created the whole need for manual anal gland expression. In fact, many vets recommend that you don't do this if it isn't absolutely necessary (indicated by a dog constantly scooting their butt on the ground) since it can actually irritate and damage the anal glands.

I've never had my dogs go through this procedure and they don't "scoot". My mom's dog was a chronic "scooter" until I convinced her to switch to PMR and that put a stop to it. It's one of the wonderful advantages of raw.


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

i read that, too, jay.....because of bubba's skunk glands and malia's scooting.

we started having the glands expressed when malia was younger and she was scooting like a madwoman......we thought she had worms...but this dog has been scooting since we found her at five weeks..

still does......scoot, that is...she doesn't leave marks....nor does she smell like skunk..but scooting is a daily thing for her. we think her butt is itchy....

i wonder what would happen if we stopped doing it...because about a week before grooming, bubba will begin to release his and the smell is OMG awful....

he's a nervous dog...if he hears a sound on television, he'll jump....frying pans make him jump...and we can be rubbing a belly on the couch, when, suddenly, that odour comes out of his cute little behind and i look at him, and wonder if he's half skunk...

i wonder if we stopped getting them expressed........his poop is generally firm and it would occur naturally

malia's isn't always but hers never was....i'd have to feed her bone every day to get firm from her....she's been like that from the beginning...with her, if she is not doing hershey squirts, we call it good...

we don't overfeed, but we do feed a high percentage of red meats....more red meat than chicken


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## Caty M (Aug 13, 2010)

I feed bone every day.. in the morning I feed bone in chicken/quail/duck/turkey.. and the boneless red meat is in the afternoon.. I don't think it's too much.. my dog isn't constipated at all.


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## DaneMama (Jun 27, 2008)

Jay- some dogs just need to be expressed on a regular basis because it's a morphological issue than a poo issue. Just depends on the dog. I agree that it shouldn't be done unless absolutely necessary....just depends on the dog. Our youngest Dane pup has been scooting since we brought her home and every time I express her anal glands they are FULL!


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

on the other hand....we're so used to doing it on a regular basis.....i need to ask my groomer if they're full when she does it...

because why do it if they aren't full..

dogs will express their glands when they get scared or perceive a threat.....with bubba...it's a dog barking on the television....or explosive sounds....things like that....

we never ever raise our voice to him because he's so sensitive to sound...and his widdle feelings get hurt and he reacts physically...

actually, jay, whilst it probably has nothing to do with the thinning of the fur....i'm glad you brought it up....: )


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## JayJayisme (Aug 2, 2009)

danemama08 said:


> Jay- some dogs just need to be expressed on a regular basis because it's a morphological issue than a poo issue. Just depends on the dog.


Hi Natalie,

I understand this. I just wondered if this was one of those situations or if it was just being done out of "habit". I've noticed that it's not uncommon for people who switch to raw forget to stop doing the anal gland expression thing when they take their dogs in for grooming. My groomer even mentioned it when I went there the first time and was very emphatic about them NOT doing this. He said a lot of raw feeders forget even though its clear their dog doesn't need it. I just saw this thread as an opportunity to remind the raw feeding folks here that it may not be necessary. As magicre said, it may be time to re-evaluate this procedure and determine if it really is needed. 

Magicre, I have a very fearful, skittish dog as well and we live in a pretty noisy urban environment. I know how it is. Fortunately she doesn't "skunk off" when she is startled. She does a lot of other weird things, but thankfully, that isn't one of them.

Cheers!

Jay


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

i'm glad you brought it up, jay...i'm one that didn't even think about anal gland expressing when we switched...we had had so much trouble transitioning...the first six months were all about the stabilisation of the poo...

now we can move on to anal glands LOL


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## lmgakg (Jan 1, 2011)

I started a new thread about this - sort of, the scooting and butt itch thing, because I didn't realize this was here. Jivago, my maltese, had his glands removed years ago, because of the constant fullness of them. I was bringing him to teh vet almost weekly and was told they were totally full each and every time. Part of the reason I switched to raw was because I have tried every (i am not exagerating) food there is and everything made him chew his butt and paws until they were raw! We have been doing raw for 10 days now, his butt is swollen and red - poop seems good, and he is scooting. I was wondering if it could be a chicken allergy?? Is that possible????? When he was on kibble, I would give him a tiny bit of infant motrin and that would help with the swelling and I would assume the pain. I was always told that if butt scooting/itching is present, they are probably allergic to the food because that's where it comes out! Any thoughts/suggestions would be awesome!


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## lmgakg (Jan 1, 2011)

magicre said:


> or explosive sounds....things like that....
> 
> we never ever raise our voice to him because he's so sensitive to sound...and his widdle feelings get hurt and he reacts physically...


hahaha, awwwww poor baby!!!!!!!!!!!! That sounds like my Raja!!!!!!!!!! scared of everything!


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## Liz (Sep 27, 2010)

*Coat loss*

Re, It might be this crazy weather. My 10 year old male collie generally has a enomous coat but this year he has been shedding and not really filling back in, my smooth girl is a bit coarser and not as dense int he coat either. The only ones with big coats are the younsters.


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## RawFedDogs (Jun 16, 2008)

lmgakg said:


> I was wondering if it could be a chicken allergy?? Is that possible?????


It's very rare for a dog to be allergic to any kind of meat. Are you feeding anything other than meat, bones, and organs? Supplements? If the answer to both of these is, "no", are you feeding enhanced chicken or pork? If so, try unenhanced for a month or so.


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## lmgakg (Jan 1, 2011)

RawFedDogs said:


> It's very rare for a dog to be allergic to any kind of meat. Are you feeding anything other than meat, bones, and organs? Supplements? If the answer to both of these is, "no", are you feeding enhanced chicken or pork? If so, try unenhanced for a month or so.


Nope, nothing! Chicken backs with occasional piece of chicken from breast just to give more meat for good poop. He has eaten a chicken wing and a leg. He ate a thigh the other day. And then the rib bone this weekend. No supplements, no treats (although this weekend he did get a couple pieces of the rib meat that I cut off the bone - but those pieces were like fingernail size)....and nope, it's not enhanced....I was told to stay away from that because it's just extra crap pumped in.


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

lmgakg said:


> I started a new thread about this - sort of, the scooting and butt itch thing, because I didn't realize this was here. Jivago, my maltese, had his glands removed years ago, because of the constant fullness of them. I was bringing him to teh vet almost weekly and was told they were totally full each and every time. Part of the reason I switched to raw was because I have tried every (i am not exagerating) food there is and everything made him chew his butt and paws until they were raw! We have been doing raw for 10 days now, his butt is swollen and red - poop seems good, and he is scooting. I was wondering if it could be a chicken allergy?? Is that possible????? When he was on kibble, I would give him a tiny bit of infant motrin and that would help with the swelling and I would assume the pain. I was always told that if butt scooting/itching is present, they are probably allergic to the food because that's where it comes out! Any thoughts/suggestions would be awesome!


i would keep an eye on jivago...but continue to do what you're doing...his butt is swollen and red but is it AS red or AS swollen as it was?

malia scoots no matter what...it's not worms...it's not anal glands...i think she's has an itch...she scratches it and then she's fine....although not very ladylike...there's nothing that we ever could find that was wrong.

your dog doesn't have anal glands....that in and of itself can cause a host of issues...

i'm surprised your vet had you remove them.....that's a subject for another day, i suppose...

for now, maybe apply some benedryl creme to the affected area....to reduce the swelling and keep feeding raw...after a month or so, let's see if there is some change...follow what natalie and jon have said and all that you've read...because i honestly don't think food and anal glands or scooting are connected...other than loose stools not allowing for internal natural squeezing..common amongst kibble fed dogs....but rarely raw fed....i would think...


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## lmgakg (Jan 1, 2011)

magicre said:


> i would keep an eye on jivago...but continue to do what you're doing...his butt is swollen and red but is it AS red or AS swollen as it was?
> 
> malia scoots no matter what...it's not worms...it's not anal glands...i think she's has an itch...she scratches it and then she's fine....although not very ladylike...there's nothing that we ever could find that was wrong.
> 
> ...


Well he was pretty red and swollen when we started the PMR - this is def not the worst I've seen though...yeah, that's also the same vet that wanted him on lifelong steroids basically too!!! I don't go there anymore. Maybe it's just taking him time to adjust and get used to it??? I mean it's only been 10 days and we have had bouts of too hard, too soft poop (I realize that is mom's error) but I think I've got it down now....so is 10 days still too new to expect great changes??? I don't know...if I put benedryl on it, he licks it all off, that's why I used to use the infant motrin - because he's only 10 pounds....think I can do that??? Does your babe just scoot?? See if Jivago only scooted, I probably would ignore it, but because it's obviously sore and looks bad, I worry. Also this is grooming week, so both of them pretty much stink and look homeless to me, so that could be part of the problem too!!!! I can't wait for my groomer to see them though - she's been giving Raja hot oil treatments and all kind of special attention because his skin was sooooo dry and always had been, he bites like he has fleas (I should say used to - because that has stopped!!!) and you can now pet him without a handful of dandruff!!!! Yippee to that!


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

if jay hadn't brought up the anal glands....they'd be getting expressed forever....

now that it's been brought up...if i were in your position...i'd stop any and all hair treatments....use hypoallergenic shampoo and conditioner...don't bathe too often...and let the raw do its work...

i think ten days is too soon...especially since the beginning is all about changing their system and giving yourself time to learn this new system...of feeding...

i know all about mom error...i am the guinness book of records for mom errors...and still, my dogs transitioned in spite of me....

the one thing i did do was concentrate on the food and the stools and i watched them...slowly, but surely, their teeth whitened..it wasn't overnight....

if i were you, i'd research the issues of post surgical anal gland removal....maybe natalie can give you some ideas about the red swollen butt....although i have a feeling it's because the stools are not stable yet...but they will be and keep checking...i would not give your dog a beef rib just yet....

keep in mind, too...that when they are first switched over, at least my dogs....they smelled..it was like toxins coming out of their skin....and i wish i could remember how long that went on...not long...it's kind of a blur to me now....it was nightmarish in the beginning...but that's what happens when i didn't listen....my dogs and i paid for it each and ever time...once i adhered to a schedule of progression....the dogs blossomed....


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## lmgakg (Jan 1, 2011)

They go to the groomers once every 6-7 weeks....and the stink they have is just that "I need a bath smell!" Seriously, I hate taking them anywhere the last week, because that funk just sits in my car forever!!! But if I try to do a week earlier, it seems like it's too much! I will research that. I never really thought about that because it's been so long since he's had them out. You saying ten days is too soon makes me feel better though....Raja seems soooo much better!! No more room clearing gas and no more biting on himself!!


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## lmgakg (Jan 1, 2011)

Oh, and Raja's teeth are perfect, he's just a year old, so I'm starting this with him before any damage occurred. But Jivago's teeth aren't so pretty - although his breath is better, and I'm kinda just realizing this as I'm typing, but usually the last week before the groomer his breath is just nasty!!!! And he was laying on me last night and I didn't even notice it!!!! Okay, so anyway, do you think or suggest a tooth cleaning like by the vet or just let the bones do their job by themselves???? Honestly, they both have toothbrushes and I used to do jivago's up until he was 3 (7 years ago), but haven't since and have never done raja's....


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

the stink you speak of goes away....at least it did for my dogs....i think the only reason they go to a groomer is she is a friend to me, their godmother and they live with her when we go away..LOL

they don't smell like wet dog anymore....they don't 'stink' like they need a bath..so yeah, i think ten days is too soon...it takes a bit of time for the toxins to clear....

it's almost a year for my guys....mistakes and all? wow....the difference is night and day...and each dog is different....

bubba stopped stinking before malia did...but her teeth whitened up faster than his...

how bad are jivago's teeth? do they look better than they did ten days ago?

the anal gland thing...it's something he's done since we got him, although he does it less than he did before...

i'm wondering if we stopped kelly from expressing them, he might stop expressing them, so the food can do its job....

in your case...not sure about what happens to a dog when anal glands are removed...but research it....

everything else? patience, grasshopper ..that's what everyone kept telling me LOL


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## lmgakg (Jan 1, 2011)

Awww, yes, my groomer is def family too! But no stink???? That's awesome!!!! I don't think his teeth have changed much. I honestly don't think that they are that bad, considering he hates hard bones and has never chewed on anything like that in his life (except that rib bone - he literally never came up for air, I almost took it from him just to force him to breath for a minute!!!) and doesn't get his teeth brushed and is 10 years old. I've seen dogs with waaaaay worse teeth. But they do have brown stuff.....I took pictures because I knew I would forget - but they basically the same.


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

i don't know how bad the placque is on jivago....i'd give it a month or so....

and keep in mind...this is a time thing, too.....the gums are sore, the teeth are weak and probably sore....the jaw is weak, the muscles are weak...after all, how much strength does it take to eat kibble...

actually, if jivago didn't react stool wise, badly, from the rib....i'd give it to him....anything to clean the teeth....

when my dogs first started....neither my pug nor my corgi mix could eat bone very well....chicken backs gave them trouble...now they plow through them....and other bones, that, in the beginning they could not eat...like pork ribs....they started out by eating the ends of the rib...now they just crunch and gone..

but keep checking the teeth for improvements....if you have to...get them cleaned one more time...but give it at least a month and then reasess...that's only my opinion, as i am not a dentist....nor do i play one on tv


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## lmgakg (Jan 1, 2011)

magicre said:


> but keep checking the teeth for improvements....if you have to...get them cleaned one more time...but give it at least a month and then reasess...that's only my opinion, as i am not a dentist....nor do i play one on tv


:biggrin:


The rib bone made it a little softer, but not like watery diarrhea - I pretended to still be asleep Sunday morning when they boys woke up to go outside, after giving it to them saturday night....and so Jivago taught me a lesson and went downstairs and pooped, then came back to bed!!!! Oh well, in all honestly, if I get another hour in bed in the morning - I'll clean up a mess in the basement gladly!!!! But it really wasn't as runny as I would have expected, being it a new thing so soon.


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

they're not ready for rib bones.....unless all of the meat is stripped off and i mean all...

they are less than 2 weeks into raw....the reason natalie has a schedule and raw fed dogs has a schedule is to avoid the soft poops.....and to allow their system to change...

it would be like giving a steak to an infant...and then wondering why all hell broke loose.

just my opinion....because, believe me, i am no expert...but i'd give it a little more time..

you may be at the point where you can add in turkey necks and turkey....although each time you intro a new protein, intro it with chicken....so you have a control...and if anything happens, you'll know...

for the first few months...most likely, every meal you feed will have bone in it...turkey necks are great for cleaning teeth...they are a little harder than chicken backs...

but read natalie's website....because it's pretty methodical....read raw fed dog's website, because it's also methodical and makes what we conjuire up as difficult in our own heads.....well, it eases our dogs into raw and that's the part that counts...in spite of our excitement...

if anyone had ever told me i'd be excited that i'm getting a goat today...i would have laughed....BUT I'M GETTING A GOAT TODAY AND I CAN'T WAIT!!! LOL


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## lmgakg (Jan 1, 2011)

magicre said:


> they're not ready for rib bones.....unless all of the meat is stripped off and i mean all...
> 
> they are less than 2 weeks into raw....the reason natalie has a schedule and raw fed dogs has a schedule is to avoid the soft poops.....and to allow their system to change...
> 
> ...


I did cut and pick as much meat off the bones as I could without chewing it off myself!!! I have both of those printed off and they are staples on my counter now!!! Jivago does better when I do morning of backs, and then evening of like part of a wing, so a tiny bitof bone and breast pieces - otherwise, he is constipated. Honestly, I think that the beef meat that he did get really helped. 

Ummmm, okay, I have to ask - are you getting a goat for a pet???? Because if you are, I AM SOOOOO EXCITED and JEALOUS!!!!!!!!!!!!! I have always wanted a goat!


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

lmgakg said:


> I did cut and pick as much meat off the bones as I could without chewing it off myself!!! I have both of those printed off and they are staples on my counter now!!! Jivago does better when I do morning of backs, and then evening of like part of a wing, so a tiny bitof bone and breast pieces - otherwise, he is constipated. Honestly, I think that the beef meat that he did get really helped.
> 
> Ummmm, okay, I have to ask - are you getting a goat for a pet???? Because if you are, I AM SOOOOO EXCITED and JEALOUS!!!!!!!!!!!!! I have always wanted a goat!


what i'm talking about is the type of protein....if jivago is getting constipated, then of course, feed back in the morning and then try some boneless chicken at night...do that for a week, see how that goes...

and if all goes well...

intro a turkey neck in the a.m. and some boneless chicken at night...

and see how that goes..

i'm so sorry to disappoint.....this goat is for my dogs....it be food.....

a year ago....i was opening a bag of kibble.....10 months ago, i was concocting home cooked food....now, i long for picking up dead animal parts to feed my dogs LOL...it think it's my own little human journey from processed to real.....for both my beloved pets and myself....


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## lmgakg (Jan 1, 2011)

magicre said:


> i'm so sorry to disappoint.....this goat is for my dogs....it be food.....
> 
> ..



I am still happy for you....I'm not really as jealous anymore though! I am adjusting, this is better for my babies, so I'm dealing with it. But I have spent the last 4 years reading labels for shampoo and lotions and clothes even and making sure everything was animal free and that the companies did not support animal testing and so this is a HUGE change for me... 

I think I may start Raja on Turkey necks this coming weekend - he is to the point where he is getting bored I think with teh chicken. He eats it, but he kinda looks at it and then at me, like umm, I had this yesterday. I worry less about him because he is so young and big....and I think the younger the easier adjustment period any person/animal has to any situation. Jivago though, I'm gonna stick with the chicken for a little longer, maybe another week...His butt is definately getting better too, still a little irritated, but when I really looked last night, it is better. The hair around it is brown tinged though from him licking - you know the brown that is around white dogs mouths and eyes usually especially when they are older....so that makes it look worse when I'm just glancing....I'm sure I'm just paranoid.


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## whiteleo (Sep 7, 2008)

Just an FYI for Jay, I certainly wish I didn't have to have my females anals expressed every 6-7 weeks but the raw feeding hasn't helped in the last 2 years of not needing it done.

Some breeds of dogs are just more prone to have to have this done manually.


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## lmgakg (Jan 1, 2011)

whiteleo said:


> Just an FYI for Jay, I certainly wish I didn't have to have my females anals expressed every 6-7 weeks but the raw feeding hasn't helped in the last 2 years of not needing it done.
> 
> Some breeds of dogs are just more prone to have to have this done manually.


I noticed Natalie mentioned having to do her dane's glands too. I thought the anal gland thing was a small dog problem.....Jivago is my first little guy and he is the only dog I have ever known to have issues - except my girlfriend's mom's yorkie, but again a small guy. Learn something new every day!!!


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

whiteleo said:


> Just an FYI for Jay, I certainly wish I didn't have to have my females anals expressed every 6-7 weeks but the raw feeding hasn't helped in the last 2 years of not needing it done.
> 
> Some breeds of dogs are just more prone to have to have this done manually.


that's why i'm going to ask.....i never questioned it....i'm glad jay brought it up....even if they still have to have their glands expressed and bubba skunks when he's scared....ah well..that's what we signed up for....

'course, i have to wonder if expressing begets the need for it...if we keep doing it, it keeps needing to be done...just a thought...


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

lmgakg said:


> I am still happy for you....I'm not really as jealous anymore though! I am adjusting, this is better for my babies, so I'm dealing with it. But I have spent the last 4 years reading labels for shampoo and lotions and clothes even and making sure everything was animal free and that the companies did not support animal testing and so this is a HUGE change for me...
> 
> I think I may start Raja on Turkey necks this coming weekend - he is to the point where he is getting bored I think with teh chicken. He eats it, but he kinda looks at it and then at me, like umm, I had this yesterday. I worry less about him because he is so young and big....and I think the younger the easier adjustment period any person/animal has to any situation. Jivago though, I'm gonna stick with the chicken for a little longer, maybe another week...His butt is definately getting better too, still a little irritated, but when I really looked last night, it is better. The hair around it is brown tinged though from him licking - you know the brown that is around white dogs mouths and eyes usually especially when they are older....so that makes it look worse when I'm just glancing....I'm sure I'm just paranoid.


observation is a good thing....point is, it's not worse....

as for boredom...well, malia now frowns...i swear she does...when she sees chicken and she doesn't get fed chicken very often anymore....too bad for her, but her mouth goes into a pout and she looks soulfully at me and then, sigh, eats it....as if to say ---- REALLY? : )


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

both dogs went to the groomer today.....and she knows my dogs well....

even she believes their fur is not quite as thick as it usually is....seems to be growing slower....

and she does believe their anal glands are full each time they go to her...but this makes me wonder....

does expressing beget expressing?

if we stop, will their bodies take over and do what they should be doing naturally?

is it worth a try?

the other thing i'm thinking about is perhaps they are not getting enough fat...

chicken is lean, turkey is lean, fish is lean, goat is lean....pork not so lean...beef, well, the beef they get is leaner than the beef i buy for me because it's grass fed/grass finished....the lamb i have is so fatty that i'm trimming the fat off....

i wonder if i'm depriving them of fat...so i have fur that is thinning...and you can see it on bubba, like under his arms....that one foot has a teeny tiny 1 mm bald circle...he chases that foot, but i've not seen him chew it...

the hair around his anus always needs to be shaved around grooming time...and it barely needs to be shaved this time...

pugs are the shedding capital of the world and corgis are right behind them....they are still shedding, but i'm not coughing up hair balls, so it's less than usual....

it can't all be the weather...other than that, they seem fine...


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## DaneMama (Jun 27, 2008)

I would hold off expressing them on a regular basis and see what happens. Make sure to keep a close eye out for problems because you dont want to end up with an impacted or infected anal gland. 

It may be that they aren't getting enough fats. I would stop trimming things gradually and see how they do with that...


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## Ania's Mommy (Feb 8, 2009)

Keep trimming the fat off the sheep, but stop throwing it away. Feed it WITH the other proteins. That way, they won't get a ton of fat all at once, but still get an appropriate amount throughout the week.


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## bumblegoat (May 12, 2010)

Chicken really isn't that lean, if the skin is left on. Chicken wings for example are actually quite fatty.


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

they don't get a hole lot of chicken; and, when they do, mostly, it's the frame...

richelle? you really think they're not getting enough fat?

you know what the beef looks like..and that goat is the leanest meat i've seen in a while..so is llama...

the venison hearts are lean....

they get beef tongue occasionally....

so now i'm thinking pork ribs and pork shoulder...that's the only real fatty food they get and occasionally lamb riblets and i'm sorry but that lamb is almost total fat..

but you're right...i should keep it and give it to them....that may be their problem...not enough fat


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## Ania's Mommy (Feb 8, 2009)

I don't think that adding more fat to their diet would hurt (and it would be a good way to use up that fatty sheep). And it COULD help a little bit too. It's worth a shot.

We have had some frickin' weird whether around here lately. 18*-25* one week, 50*-60* the next. It could just be that their little systems are all screwed up and don't know how to compensate.

Who knows? But adding fat is the first thing I'd do. I know that a lot of the stuff you have is pretty lean (except that damn sheep!). So I'd start there and see what happens.


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

it's ten days later...here's what i've done.

jay - i spoke to my groomer. malia's anal glands were not full. bubba's were. we are, however, going to stop expressing them for a bit and see what happens.
***note to self*** buy more laundry detergent for blankies that get skunked, in anticipation : )

1. we are feeding less liver and kidney

2. we are feeding higher fat foods and treating them with lamb fat cubes (tiny ones, so as not to overwhelm)

bubba has more thinning than he did ten days ago in more areas. malia has more thinning than she did ten days ago.

they are both shiny and playful. i don't want to take them to the vet....

and the only disease i can think of that both dogs could get would be demodectic mange...but there is no redness, no rash, no flakes.....just missing hair under their arms, bellies, necks, but not where the collar is.

i just keep thinking they are lacking something nutritionally because both dogs are exhibiting the same exact symptomatology....and, as bill used to tell me, for him, that points to user error...LOL...so i'm thinking i'm doing something wrong....

we were swinging along for 11 months....but, at least it's not poop issues : )


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## DaneMama (Jun 27, 2008)

Have you changed anything within the past two months (other than recent changes)? 

When was the last time you did bloodwork on them both?


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## whiteleo (Sep 7, 2008)

We have been on the diet for over 2 years, with no hair loss. We pretty much feed the same way but I don't feed chicken backs/frames. Google iodine defiency in dogs on a raw diet. I feed kelp maybe once a week, it really has to do with where we live and the meat we get.


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

let's see...

groomer has not changed shampoo or conditioner. both hypoallergenic.

raw eggs increased from once in a while to once a week.

pork kidney - that was a first. intro'd about a month ago, i think....both dogs did not like it.
stopped feeding about a week ago and switched to lamb kidney which they've had before.

pork kidney was new.
goat was new.
lamb was not new, but this lamb was bought within the past two months.

chicken frames are fed maybe once a week.

liver and kidney portions cut in half when i reported this ten days ago.

i don't want to change too much, lest i miss something....

robin, i'll look up iodine deficiency....see what it says..

primal sardine - they've had before, but i ran out of fresh fish so i was feeding that...

what i might have to do is go back to basics....and start over. how does that sound.

feed chicken for a few weeks without anything else and see what happens...they always did fine on chicken....and then add in a protein every few weeks?

they just aren't acting 'sick'.....

it's not mange, not ringworm, not dandruff...no pustules, nothing but bald spots and thinning hair in places.


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## DaneMama (Jun 27, 2008)

When was the last time you had bloodwork done on both of them?

Starting over sounds a lot easier to me....


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## Ania's Mommy (Feb 8, 2009)

Just a little thought about the possible iodine deficiency.....

I know that you strive very hard to not feed any enhanced meats. Meat that is enhanced is done so with salt. Salt typically has iodine in it (artificially added, of course, but usually added, just the same).


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## Ania's Mommy (Feb 8, 2009)

Oh, and I'm not suggesting you start feeding enhanced meat. Just maybe shedding some light on why there *might* be an iodine deficiency.


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## whiteleo (Sep 7, 2008)

Yes, but the sodium phosphate is the icky part. Kelp also has other good things in it that is good. Nummy!


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

they had blood work less than a year ago.....

i have to find it again, but i swear there are foods with iodine in it...might not be a lot, but i'll have to look for it again.

i have a thyroid problem - no thyroid function at all.... and my hair is fine....LOL and i don't eat enhanced meats or added salt....i know, i know....i'm not a dog....much as i long to be one of my dogs...

they were being fed raw eggs weekly and raw eggs contain iodide....


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## DaneMama (Jun 27, 2008)

I recommend doing bloodwork once a year....hair loss is a symptom of thyroid issues in dogs.


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

danemama08 said:


> I recommend doing bloodwork once a year....hair loss is a symptom of thyroid issues in dogs.


i'm not going to mess with this.....they're going to the vet tomorrow....i suspect this might be ringworm.....it threw me, since that tell tale red ring is not present.....

but their diet is stellar....and egg yolks have iodine in them, as does sea food and fish....and to a lesser degree meats....

they don't act like thyroid dogs....

natalie, have you ever seen a dog with ringworm, without the accompanying red ring....?


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## DaneMama (Jun 27, 2008)

We don't see much ringworm. I'd take my dogs in as well if I were you....


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

danemama08 said:


> We don't see much ringworm. I'd take my dogs in as well if I were you....


400 dollars later and we know this:

they most likely do NOT have ringworm or demodectic mange...i like that. but, he looked for them and other derma fungi and did skin scrapings....so...

they are healthy and shiny and wonderful.

it would be really coincidental that both dogs are hypothyroid, but we had senior panels drawn on both dogs.

it's possible they have been 'blowing their coats' due to this crazy weather, which would explain the 'not as thick a coat as we're used to seeing...malia's got that corgi tail which is lush and wide and it's now half the width....

when i run my fingers through their top coat, used to be i couldn't see my fingers, they are that thick. now i can.

both bellies are showing thinning.....we can see skin where we never saw skin before.

the only two things i can think of at this point, all things considered is they are not getting enough fat...or this is the craziest washington winter we've had.

each dog is now getting fattier proteins and 1000 iu salmon oil instead of 500.

so we'll see. i'm reluctant to make too many changes as i've been taught well.

next week, i will add back eggs, since they contain iodide in them, plus they are rich in fats and good stuff.

the vet can't figure it out and is not ashamed to admit that....but is running tests to see what's going on.


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## harrkim120 (Feb 2, 2010)

Keep us posted!!! I'm enthralled!!! :tongue1:


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

harrkim120 said:


> Keep us posted!!! I'm enthralled!!! :tongue1:


yep. you and me both.

the other strange thing. they are eight years apart in age. eat exactly the same food. 

both are double coated and hoo rah shedders.

when the corgi mix is on the vet table she is a vibrating machine and sheds a whole dog. yesterday, she vibrated but only shed a quarter of a dog.

i think raw feeding can reduce shedding....and that's fine...because they still look lush and bright....

i didn't think it caused little bald spots or missing hair on their belllies so as to see skin and fuzzy hair...


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## DaneMama (Jun 27, 2008)

Please post pictures of bloodwork results here if you can....sounds like WA is having a strange winter!!!!


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

danemama08 said:


> Please post pictures of bloodwork results here if you can....sounds like WA is having a strange winter!!!!


as soon as they come in, i'll ask them to mail me copies. and i'll get them online.
we're setting up our domain for pics...

nat....may i ask why the pic size for avatars was changed?


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## DaneMama (Jun 27, 2008)

I asked for them to be bigger...as well as signature pics as well.


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

danemama08 said:


> I asked for them to be bigger...as well as signature pics as well.


bless you. 19.7 kb is almost impossible : )


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

i've received the results of the senior panels drawn on both dogs.

i'm only going to post the abnormal values......

MALIA:

all values are well within normal range, except:

ALBUMIN - 4.1 
normal: 2.5-4.0 g/dl

CHLORIDE: 116
normal: 105-115 mEq/L

HGB: 19.4
normal: 12- 18 g/dl

THYROID: 1.8
normal: 1.0 - 4.0 ug/dL

pH: 8.00

urinalysis - free catch - yellow, mildly cloudy but otherwise, normal.

from this, i'm concluding she is a little dehydrated..and needs to drink more....

but i'm open to suggestions...the hair loss has not gotten worse..it has seemed to stop...but i don't see it getting better...the pics i posted in the picture thread were taken prior to the hair loss...i will see if i can get honey to hold them so i can take more current ones.

BUBBA:

AMYLASE: 446
normal: 450 - 1240 U/L ( Low)

LIPASE: 779
normal: 100 - 750 U/L (slightly elevated)

BUN: 30
normal 7 - 27 mg/dl

CHOLESTEROL - 348
normal: 112 - 328 mg/dl

B/C ratio: 33.3
does not give a normal

THYROID: T4 2.2
normal: 1.0 - 4.0 ug/dl

red blood cell and white blood cell count normal

urinalysis - free catch
yellow and a little cloudy, but otherwise normal

pH 7.5


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## DaneMama (Jun 27, 2008)

Looks fine to me for the most part...you'll have to do follow up bloodwork done to see if those values are chronically off or not. The values may be slightly high or slightly high depending on so many factors. Which is why routine bloodwork is important...not just one set. You need to see values way off or trend of off values to be concerned. 

Right now I wouldn't do anything differently with them other than the slight changes you've made to their diet.


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

actually, none of them jump out at me as being something...

malia's had blood work...but you're right..this is a baseline for bubba...

i figure, at this point, they aren't getting worse...they're not itching or chewing....and the hair is growing back a little i think.....so we'll see.


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## DaneMama (Jun 27, 2008)

Definitely keep us posted!


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

this is now.


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

this was toward the end of the summer.


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## DaneMama (Jun 27, 2008)

I can't really tell a difference between the photos. They look great to me still....


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

don't get me wrong, natalie...they don't look bad...they have bald spots and i can see his skin...if you look at his face....there is less hair on his jowls...

on his chest, those are hairless spots, not white hair.

on his belly, the hair is so thin, we can see his skin....

when i grab his hair on his back, i used to be able to bury my hand in the fur, not so anymore...it's still shiny black....but not nearly as thick....no matter what kind of winter we've had, which was crazy cold/warm...nuts.....they should have a winter coat, not no coat.....right?


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## sassymaxmom (Dec 7, 2008)

In Optimal Nutrition by Monica Segal the chart showing symptoms of deficiency shows biotin and zinc as important for skin and coat health. More egg yolks, more zinc from oysters? I know Max doesn't get enough zinc from his meager 1.6% raw diet.


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## DaneMama (Jun 27, 2008)

We have given Shiloh extra zinc before...


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

ok....so a slight increase in dietary fat, which i hadn't done since they started transition....and bring back egg yolks, minus the whites....

i thought they were getting enough zinc, based on this:

Foods Containing Zinc
Zinc is very much associated with protein foods. Thus, you may assume that most foods high in zinc are protein-rich as well. The best sources of zinc include beef, lamb, pork, crabmeat, turkey, chicken, lobster, clams and salmon.

whilst they don't get crab, lobster, clams or salmon (other than cooked)...they get plenty of beef, lamb, pork...not so much turkey. may be time to increase that, too


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## sassymaxmom (Dec 7, 2008)

Max only gets half the zinc he is supposed to get according to NRC from raw. Part of it is he is fed 1.5% his actual body weight, part is he does gets 25% or so low zinc poultry. If he got 100% beef meat he would have enough zinc but there needs to be bone in there too! Excess copper, phosphorus and calcium are supposed to interfere with zinc absorption as well.
See page 16 here.
What Is Complete And Balanced Nutrition For Dogs


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

magicre said:


> this is now.


this is what i ended up doing. i stopped the salmon oil. i had read on a gsd forum that not all dogs do well on salmon oil and since my dogs eat mackerel, sardines, and anchovies, plus a lot of grass fed red meat, i figured it couldn't hurt.

i also upped their dietary fat..since they were already getting red meats, but they were getting lean red meats....

this is what they look like now. 

liz saw them yesterday and says it takes a while to grow back in and i believe her....we are just about at a month....and we get to witness the miracle of raw...their underbellies are still a little thin....but the difference a month makes and a diet tweak...


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## DaneMama (Jun 27, 2008)

So glad to hear that they are doing better already! Thanks for the update! Gorgeous black dogs :wink:


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

i think maybe i'm starting to get the hang of this raw thing.....now, if only i could convince honey we need another freezer LOL


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## Angelwing (Feb 20, 2011)

They look much better now! And it's great that you get them groomed that often.  Just so you know, even when anal glands don't physically get expressed, quite often the dog will express them himself once the blow-dryer comes on. Or even at some other point during the grooming.


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

my dog is part skunk. he expresses his glands whenever anything comes on. LOL


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

as an update...i think this thread was started in january....

since then, malia is now fully back...and bubba mostly.....he is still a little thin on his underbelly but not nearly as much and now, when i grab his fur on his back, it is thick and luxurious...both of them are...

so fat was the answer....so simple....and yet, that simple thing was enough to make them bald.


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## DaneMama (Jun 27, 2008)

Glad to hear that they are both growing good, thick coats back!


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## PennyGreyhuahua (Aug 13, 2011)

magicre said:


> as an update...i think this thread was started in january....
> 
> since then, malia is now fully back...and bubba mostly.....he is still a little thin on his underbelly but not nearly as much and now, when i grab his fur on his back, it is thick and luxurious...both of them are...
> 
> so fat was the answer....so simple....and yet, that simple thing was enough to make them bald.


i'm so glad i've found this thread...Penny's having the same issue right now...today's her 2 weeks on raw and the hair is thinning...the chicken thighs, drumsticks & backs she ate have skin/fat on them so maybe she's detoxing?? currently her arms, neck, behind the ears are thinning...little worried


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## monkeys23 (Dec 8, 2010)

Lol, I've had the opposite happen. I swear they've got more fur now! But its even more luxurious so thats okay.


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

don't be worried....things will happen the first year of raw that you'll be puzzled at, or astounded with....

she's eating the skin and the fat from the chicken?

how are her stools?


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## swolek (Mar 31, 2011)

monkeys23 said:


> Lol, I've had the opposite happen. I swear they've got more fur now! But its even more luxurious so thats okay.


That's what happened with Sophie, her fur got thicker but also softer .


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## PennyGreyhuahua (Aug 13, 2011)

magicre said:


> don't be worried....things will happen the first year of raw that you'll be puzzled at, or astounded with....
> 
> she's eating the skin and the fat from the chicken?
> 
> how are her stools?


Thanks for the advice!...yes she's been eating the skin/fat since day 1 (didn't know back then no skin/fat in the beginning)...her stool is perfect firm, soild & no smell...i hope she's detoxing not allergies...i didn't know pug's a shedder till saw ur posts! we have a lot of pugs here in our city


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

PennyGreyhuahua said:


> Thanks for the advice!...yes she's been eating the skin/fat since day 1 (didn't know back then no skin/fat in the beginning)...her stool is perfect firm, soild & no smell...i hope she's detoxing not allergies...i didn't know pug's a shedder till saw ur posts! we have a lot of pugs here in our city


the only reason not to feed fat/skin is if there are problems....my problem was i forgot to add it back in, hence the loss of hair...

my pug sheds entire dogs every day, so does my corgi mix, malia.

i think dogs go through detox because it's such a drastic change to their diets...every dog is different and some are more noticeable than others....


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## Liz (Sep 27, 2010)

We had a coat loss also - but the coat that came back in is lovely. My 11 year old has a young dogs coat, brilliant whites and the blackest black. he is a blue merle and his black was rusty and his white was yellowed. No more though he is striking again.


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