# Constipation and too much organ meat



## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

I am feeding Snorkels about 40% organ meat now, and a small amount of bone ground in food plus some eggshell to make up the calcium.

She is still struggling about half the time. She'll be good for a day or two and then it will take her 10 minutes of struggle to get out a small poop.

I think if i" gave her 100% liver she might poop normally all the time. Right now she's getting about half liver and half other organs like tripe and kidney and spleen.

Am i going to hurt her by the amount of organs she is getting? I just had labs done and her bloodwork is perfect, nothing is even marginal.

I can't reduce bone/eggshell any more, I think she's at the minimum.

Why is she so fricken constipated? My husband is out in the front yard with her now and I'm looking at the window - she's just straining and straining and straining.

Edited to add: This is not a raw food problem. Before we started raw, she was much worse and on so much stuff for it that the remedies were making her very ill.


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## Imgliniel (Sep 1, 2011)

Aww, poor Snorkels  I have heard of someone with raw fed kitties with the same type of problem using guar gum to soften their stools. It is basically just fiber. But unlike psyllium apperently guar gum does not add bulk to the stools. Simply draws water into it to make it softer. I have not tried this myself but I have heard of this person and several others who have kitties with colon abnormalities using it with great results.


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## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

Imgliniel said:


> Aww, poor Snorkels  I have heard of someone with raw fed kitties with the same type of problem using guar gum to soften their stools. It is basically just fiber. But unlike psyllium apperently guar gum does not add bulk to the stools. Simply draws water into it to make it softer. I have not tried this myself but I have heard of person and several others who have kitties with colon abnormalities using it with great results.


thanks - i was trying to stay away from plant matter but if it will help I'll sure use it. My problem with pumpkin was that it worked for a few weeks, and then quit working. Green beans, too.


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## MiniSchnauzerLove (Oct 8, 2011)

Hi xellil!
Frankly, I think 40% organ meat is some burdens the pancreas. I don't know how long you feeding her with this amount of organ meat. I think it would help to reduce the inorganic Ca (egg shell) and to add little olive oil, fiber. Is she mini dachshund?


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## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

MiniSchnauzerLove said:


> Hi xellil!
> Frankly, I think 40% organ meat is some burdens the pancreas. I don't know how long you feeding her with this amount of organ meat. I think it would help to reduce the inorganic Ca (egg shell) and to add little olive oil, fiber. Is she mini dachshund?


yes she is a mini dachshund - and I am definitely worried about the amount of organ. But if i reduce the egg shell she won't get enough calcium. I wonder if I could supplement with calcium in a way that isn't constipating.

I have done olive oil and pumpkin - it all works great for a little while, and then doesn't work any more. She seems to build up a tolerance. And then all the stuff i was giving her started making her sick.

She doesn't seem to build up a tolerance to the organ meat - every time I increase it she gets a little better, but not good enough - and I do think I'm giving her too much organ.

I wish there was a way I could slick up her intestines so things would pop out without having to change her diet.

I can certainly try the guar gum since I haven't already tried it - maybe it will be the thing that helps. She is real good about drinking water if I add it to her food, so she is staying hydrated well.


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## Imgliniel (Sep 1, 2011)

xellil said:


> thanks - i was trying to stay away from plant matter but if it will help I'll sure use it. My problem with pumpkin was that it worked for a few weeks, and then quit working. Green beans, too.


Yeah I know what you mean. But this is something used by a vet who is an major advocate for raw and also a major advocate for no plant matter. But when you have special medical circumstances sometimes you have to make a slight exception. Let me look up some other info and see what I can find. Better to go with a more natural remedy then a drug regardless of what you settle on. Have you ever tried givving her an enzyme and probiotic blend to see if it helps level out her digestion?


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## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

Imgliniel said:


> Yeah I know what you mean. But this is something used by a vet who is an major advocate for raw and also a major advocate for no plant matter. But when you have special medical circumstances sometimes you have to make a slight exception. Let me look up some other info and see what I can find. Better to go with a more natural remedy then a drug regardless of what you settle on. Have you ever tried givving her an enzyme and probiotic blend to see if it helps level out her digestion?


I agree - if it works, i will do it. I love raw feeding and think it's been so good for my dogs, but in this area I am getting stumped. It just makes me cry to watch her struggle. The vets says with dachshunds it's also hard on their backs to strain like that, and she has arthritis in every spinal joint and both her back legs.

She was on probiotics for a long time - not sure about the enzymes. i couldn't see a different, the probiotics really helped my foster dog with a terrible tendency toward diarrhea, though.


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## chowder (Sep 7, 2008)

What kind of organs are you giving? Just chicken or also beef and pork?

You know about Chelsy and her back problems. Yesterday she was having a really hard time going and I had just given her a big piece of chicken liver the night before. She just walked around in circles hunched over for awhile until something finally came out. Sometimes I think the chicken liver actually makes her worse for some reason. 

She does better with certain meats and worse with others. Beef makes her 'go' but she hates beef. So I have to sneak it into her somehow but not too much or we'll have the opposite reaction. Turkey seems to plug her up more. So more red meat helps Chelsy.

I don't know if the kind of meat makes a difference with Snorkels or not. Also, what about canned fish? That will go right through Chelsy pretty quick.


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## Imgliniel (Sep 1, 2011)

ok, here is the vets info on it. I can find tons of info on using it in cats for constipation with great results but very little in dogs lol. Maybe because more people use things like pumkin in dogs? who knows. But if it works for cats in a raw diet I see no reason it would not work for dogs. They both have the digestive tract of a carnivore. They have some different enzymatic abilities but we are not trying ot alter anything like that, just keep poo softer, lol.

Constipation:

April, 2011 update: One of my cats, Robbie, has an anatomical abnormality in his rectum and needs to have his stools softened to facilitate defecation. I have been using guar gum (purchased from Whole Foods Market - or you can order it online) which is a soluble fiber source and it is working very well.

There are two types of fiber sources: soluble and insoluble.

Soluble fiber traps water in the stool, thereby softening it, but does not swell. It is fermented into compounds that can be helpful for colon health.

Insoluble fiber (e.g., cellulose from vegetables) also traps water but it swells - adding bulk to the stool. However, this is not what we want for cats. Cats are not designed to eat a high plant fiber diet that results in a high volume (large diameter) stool.

Vegetables contain predominantly insoluble fiber making them much less desirable for treating constipation in the cat.

I have been adding 1/8 - 1/4 of a tsp of guar gum to 100 grams (3.5 ounces) of a meal of the recipe on this site + plus an extra ~2 TBS of water. (I am not adding the guar gum to the whole batch of food since I am playing around with the amount.)

There is one drawback to using guar gum....you will no longer be able to brag that your cat's feces do not have any odor. The feces of a cat fed the recipe discussed on this webpage (without guar gum) have very little odor but guar gum is fermented into some pretty stinky gases by the bacteria in the colon.

guar gum link: http://www.amazon.com/Barry-Farm-Guar-G ... B00015UC5M


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## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

yep, i know Chelsy has a similar problem - actually liver does help snorkels - all the organ meats seem to help. i give her mostly beef liver, spleen, kidney, and beef tripe. Some chicken livers now and then. 

Salmon gives her diarrhea, but it's not real diarrhea - it's really bad straining but the little poop that comes out is liquid. So I give her a little bit every day - I think maybe a small amount might help with the constipation. i give her lots of red meat because I think it's richer - i am giving her mostly heart now.

i haven't given her too much canned fish because I can't find it without salt. maybe I will look harder. Regular grocery stores seem to sell all the bad stuff. I get whiting from My Pet Carnivore but I know it doesn't have the good oils in it and doesn't effect her poop either way.

the thing that totally plugs her up for days is eating a real bone, like a chicken back. I've had to cut those out altogether and give her the little bit of ground up bone and let her chew on a rib for her teeth. Life would be good if I could let her have a chicken neck now and then.

Every time I up the organ, she improves. She is normally good now 4-5 days a week. But i would sure hate for her to get pancreatitis or something.

that walking around hunched over thing will sure get to you.


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## MiniSchnauzerLove (Oct 8, 2011)

Maybe Guar gum is a good idea, I never used it but agree with Imgliniel about drawing water into poop to make it softer. Probably her large intestine absorbing liquid to good. Might help her to add flaxseed(linseed), submerged in water gives a slimy, viscous liquid - mucilaginozum. This liquid or whole seeds that sit in water or yogurt is used for chronic constipation.


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## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

Imgliniel said:


> ok, here is the vets info on it. I can find tons of info on using it in cats for constipation with great results but very little in dogs lol. Maybe because more people use things like pumkin in dogs? who knows. But if it works for cats in a raw diet I see no reason it would not work for dogs. They both have the digestive tract of a carnivore. They have some different enzymatic abilities but we are not trying ot alter anything like that, just keep poo softer, lol.


Thanks so much - that is extremely helpful. Sure worth a shot! If it works differently than pumpkin (i.e not adding bulk) maybe it will be something that she doesn't build up a tolerance to.

I can stand stinky poo, that's for sure. In fact, my dogs both still have really stinky toots.


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## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

MiniSchnauzerLove said:


> Maybe Guar gum is a good idea, I never used it but agree with Imgliniel about drawing water into poop to make it softer. Probably her large intestine absorbing liquid to good. Might help her to add flaxseed(linseed), submerged in water gives a slimy, viscous liquid - mucilaginozum. This liquid or whole seeds that sit in water or yogurt is used for chronic constipation.


if I did add the flaxseed, would that be just the whole seed soaked, or grind it up first? we eat it ourselves, I grind it in a coffee grinder.


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## MiniSchnauzerLove (Oct 8, 2011)

You can try both ways, give her with water/yogurt/soup, if you give her whole seed let stand in liquid overnight.


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## Imgliniel (Sep 1, 2011)

MiniSchnauzerLove I have concern for your recomendation of soaking flax before feeding, and I'll tell you exactly why. Please note this is based more on equine nutrition but the compounds in flax are the same regardles of what animal you give them too. Flax seeds contain cyanogenic compounds. In other words, chemicals that when combined react to form cyanide. Which we all know is a bad bad bad poison. Now, normally these compounds are bound and contained in different part/tissues of the seed and pose no threat. HOWEVER, soaking in water allows the compounds to leach out into the water, combine and form cyanide. While the levels are pretty small and generally regarded as not toxic in one dose, using it over time worries me. This is not to say you can't give flax in water, as it takes time for the compounds to be leached from the seeds. I mix ground flax into a mash for my horses, but it is in the water for maybe 2 min tops and the horses have eaten it. Once it hits the gastric acids, the compunds are neutralized and not able to combine any longer. If you want to give the flax for fibre I suggest BOILING it. As cooking also neutralizes the compounds. The reason cooking is not generally recomended is that it destroys much of the ALA (omega 3) content. However, since dogs really don't utilize ALA well (much better to give DHA and EPA in fish, carnivore all and you know) in this application strictly for the fibre content, boiling to get that mucousy liquid would probably be beneficial. Just a heads up.


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## MiniSchnauzerLove (Oct 8, 2011)

I did not know it, now I read on the internet. I know people who use linseed like that for many years(for themselves, not dogs). I use it ground over a year for my dog. Better then it is not used at all(soaked), just in case. Is it combines only with water?


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## DaneMama (Jun 27, 2008)

Feeding too much liver can cause vitamin A toxicity in dogs...I'd back off on feeding so much liver to avoid this. The other organs are safer to feed in high quantities. 

Have you tried really rich red meats like pork, lamb, llama, bison, elk, venison? What about higher fat content meats? 

Her constipation issue is most likely due to the physical anatomy of her intestines. Something about them causes constipation with her....maybe they're twice the length they should be, who knows.


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## Imgliniel (Sep 1, 2011)

MiniSchnauzerLove said:


> I did not know it, now I read on the internet. I know people who use linseed like that for many years(for themselves, not dogs). I use it ground over a year for my dog. Better then it is not used at all(soaked), just in case. Is it combines only with water?


Like I said, most scientists consider the amounts to small to be toxic in one dose. You won't die from it unless you consumed a rediculously large amount of soaked flaxseed all in one sitting. Cyanide is water soluble and removed from the body and peed out, so theoretically If you gave a small amount of soaked flax every day the cyanide created isn't enough to cause toxicity and then is flushed out so the next day there is none in your system. But frankly, they also say no residual growth hormone is left in cows milk treated with RBGH, and the amounts in meat are insignificant etc etc, yet over time I firmly believe that stuff reeks havoc with our systems so *shrug* it is kind of a judgement call. I don't like the term "insignificant amounts" when it comes to toxic or poisonous things.

Better in my oppinion to not use it soaked unless it is boiled (so like slow cook it for an hour or two). It depends on what you are using it for. If you are using it for your dog for fibre, just boil it instead of soak it. If you want the omega three benefits use it ground but not soaked. You can add water immediately before feeding because it won't be in the water long enough to leach out the compunds. I believe most liquids can have the same effect but honestly I have never seen any research about soaking it in anything besides water. 

So I guess the question is, what do you want your dog to get from it. Fibre or omega threes?

For people, sprinkling ground flax on your cereal etc poses no threat, your saliva will neutralize the compounds long before they get a chance to react.


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## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

i see stuff like this all over the internet:

_"Liver is a good source of vitamin A. However, feeding the dog large amounts of liver can result to toxicity given that vitamin A is one of the 2 vitamins that when over supplemented can give negative results. Three or more servings of liver a week will result to vitamin A toxicity that would cause deformed or excessive bone growth especially on the elbows and the spine. Other symptoms of toxicity are weight loss and anemia resulting from the dog�s refusal to eat, constipation or diarrhea. Because of the deformed bones, dogs with vitamin A toxicity would limp. "_

but absolutely nothing to back it up. When they say "a serving" that means nothing to me. I read somewhere here (but can't find it now) that you couldn't physically give a toxic level of liver - the dog would reject it. Who knows what is really true. Out of the organ meat I feed them, probably 30% is liver. They are on kidney and tripe right now.

I'm going to ask my vet if they can test for Vitamin A levels in their blood.


I haven't given some of those meats - I don't give her alot of chicken or turkey - she gets mostly beef, rabbit and goat and I make sure there is alot of fat in whatever she is eating. I can order bison and venison. I don't think she has extra intestines! But maybe her long body does make it anatomically hard to poop - I don't know if other doxie owners have the same problem. I know pooping doesn't clear out her anal glands like it seems to do with other dogs.

Thanks for all the advice. I hope I can figure it out.

Edited to add: she IS much better than before, a bazillion times better.


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## Imgliniel (Sep 1, 2011)

here is some good numbers info

K9joy Education: free article on " The Dangerous(?) Vitamin A " by Mogens Eliasen

it says beef liver averages 550 IU per gram and possibly problematic amounts in a golden retriever eating liver for 2 months would be 2/3 a pound per day. Just a few numbers to give you a guideline


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## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

Imgliniel said:


> here is some good numbers info
> 
> K9joy Education: free article on " The Dangerous(?) Vitamin A " by Mogens Eliasen
> 
> it says beef liver averages 550 IU per gram and possibly problematic amounts in a golden retriever eating liver for 2 months would be 2/3 a pound per day. Just a few numbers to give you a guideline


This is EXTREMELY helpful. Exactly what i needed, thanks.


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## Imgliniel (Sep 1, 2011)

the article also mentions there is no reason to expect toxic levels at double or triple the normal intake and that you need to get into 25-50 times the normal intake to see serious problems. Sooo...

Normal liver amount is 5%, triple that would be 15% total diet. You feed 40% organs, 30% of which is liver. Thats like, 12% liver total in the diet? Did I do my math right! haha. So in theory that should not cause problems.


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## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

yes, i think I am not even close to toxicity - I switch between that and kidney, pancreas, spleen, and tripe. So it's probably more like 8% except I tend to give them more of what i just got on sale. right now they are getting alot of kidney - I just bought something like 20 pounds of it.

thanks again. I think I'll try the gum and see how that does, and then after that try the flax seed if needed and remove the gum. I made a big mistake before of adding a bunch of stuff and the last two or three weeks before we switched to raw food she was really really sick and I think it was from all the stuff I was giving her for constipation.

Oh, and find some canned fish. I haven't even really given that a try.


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## Kat (Jul 12, 2011)

Have you ever tried slippery elm? It helps to lubricate the digestive tract


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## Liz (Sep 27, 2010)

Pure aloe vera is also helpful for tummy troubles just be sure you don't get the flavored ones.


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## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

Kat said:


> Have you ever tried slippery elm? It helps to lubricate the digestive tract


i thought that is short term?

Never heard of aloe vera, I'll look for it also. Thanks.


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## CavePaws (Jan 25, 2011)

Img, you are proving to be such a valuable resource. I'm glad to have someone so knowledgeable join the forum. Thanks for all the info, I've been following the thread.

Xelil, I hope everything gets worked out with Snorkels.  I'm having issues with Puck, my 12 year old, right now. He has an issue with needed a ton of bone in his diet and I think I gave him too much fat over the last couple of days...He actually was biting at his tail and but so badly this morning that it started bleeding.


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## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

CavePaws said:


> Img, you are proving to be such a valuable resource. I'm glad to have someone so knowledgeable join the forum. Thanks for all the info, I've been following the thread.
> 
> Xelil, I hope everything gets worked out with Snorkels.  I'm having issues with Puck, my 12 year old, right now. He has an issue with needed a ton of bone in his diet and I think I gave him too much fat over the last couple of days...He actually was biting at his tail and but so badly this morning that it started bleeding.


I agree.

Was the biting because of too much fat? I know Rebel does that now and then - oddly enough, more bone seems to help him. When he bites at his rear, he normally rubs his butt on the ground also.


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## Imgliniel (Sep 1, 2011)

I have aso used slippery elm in horses to help with ulcers, fabulous digestive herb! Although you are right I would be wary of giving it every day long term. Aloe juice (make sure it is pure and not flvored etc) is a great tummy tonic for people. I honestly have never used it in dogs or cats. But I have taken it myself! 

And cavepaws Thanks you! that is quite a compliment lol. :biggrin1:

edited because I can't spell right now! haha


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## Imgliniel (Sep 1, 2011)

looks like the ASPCA considers aloe toxic to dogs, so I would not try this without first consulting a holistic vet.

ASPCA | Aloe


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## swolek (Mar 31, 2011)

xellil said:


> i haven't given her too much canned fish because I can't find it without salt. maybe I will look harder. Regular grocery stores seem to sell all the bad stuff. I get whiting from My Pet Carnivore but I know it doesn't have the good oils in it and doesn't effect her poop either way.


Hare-Today has whole sardines and herrings (plus other fish but those are the ones I get), our dogs love them! They have them ground, too. Just an idea if you do try fish.


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## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

swolek said:


> Hare-Today has whole sardines and herrings (plus other fish but those are the ones I get), our dogs love them! They have them ground, too. Just an idea if you do try fish.


Yes I do, thanks - My Pet Carnivore only has salmon and whitefish. I appreciate it.


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