# fur/skin problem



## jezzdobbel8610 (May 27, 2012)

Hi all, We've been feeding our dogs, 2 golden retrievers and 1 german shepherd RAW for about 6-7 months now. We weighed them last week, and it finally hit my dad that one of the golden retreiver (Angel) is overweight (even tho I've been telling him that for weeks now) and she is now on a diet lol. Shylo, my gsd is still growing I believe, as he still has to broaden out in the chest, and he is now 94lbs, up from 88lbs 6 months ago. He's 2 next week. 

Anyway the reason I'm on here is cuz of Halo, Halo is a golden retriever as well, she is going to be 3 next week as well. She was doing so well on RAW, her beautiful coat was coming in again, but now, as it does every year in the winter (Feb, March) she loses her beautiful fur, and starts getting bald. She just appears to have dry skin, no sores or anything raw on her skin, just dryness and dandruff. We thought it might be dry air from the heat being turned on at this time of the year, and we bought a humidifier for her, but doesn't seem to be helping. We bathed her in oatmeal to help the itchiness, then rubbed her fur with baby oil, while it did soften her fur a bit, it's rough now and very thin now again. We give her fish once in a while, (sardine) trying to aim for 2 times a week or something like that. Does anybody else have any ideas or suggestion of what to do for this poor girl? Beside the vet because the vet will just want her to go on their vet food which WE REFUSES TO DO. So any ideas would be appreciated. 

Thanks.


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## whiteleo (Sep 7, 2008)

What is she eating? what is a typical week look like?


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## BearMurphy (Feb 29, 2012)

definitely need to know what you are feeding and any supplements.

has she had any blood work done? 

also, does she have any other symptoms.......any food stealing, pot bellied look, bony looking head, drinks large volumes of water, seem lazier than usual?


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## jezzdobbel8610 (May 27, 2012)

no other symptoms, very healthy dog except the skin/fur problem. she eats 2% of her body weight. She eats pork, chicken, beef, turkey, vension (if we have some), chicken carcasses if needs bones, kidney, liver, hearts, spleen. We try giving a various of meat that we can afford. She isn't on any supplements, that was another question, does the dogs need supplements if they are eating those kind of stuff? I read somewhere that they don't need supplements.


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## jezzdobbel8610 (May 27, 2012)

she eats organs and liver twice a week, about half of what she is suppose to get per week, (6.22 ozs of each, meaning 3.11 oz twice a week)


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## whiteleo (Sep 7, 2008)

Are these sources of proteins grass fed? I don't see any fish in the mix? fish is vital for omega 3's and unless your feeding all grass fed proteins she either needs fish or a fish oil supplement


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## monster'sdad (Jul 29, 2012)

Hair loss that occurs this time of year could be Seasonal Alopecia, it is related to the amount of sunlight. Vets have luck treating this with melatonin but please talk to a specialist about using melatonin.

It is very common in some breeds. It cannot be treated with food or fish oil.

Usually it presents itself in a symmetrical pattern but not always.

You might also think about whether your dog is getting enough zinc. Raw diets are very unbalanced so zinc deficiency could be part of the problem. Calcium blocks zinc absorption as well.

Talk to your vet.


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## Unosmom (May 3, 2009)

It's probably weather related, both of my dogs get dry skin and some dandruff during winter months, doesn't help that they like to sleep in front of a fireplace every night. I use fish oil (salmon) every day and they get fresh local eggs 2-3 times a week. I also recommend a product called Kalaya emu oil skin cream, it works well to moisturize skin and coat externally Kalaya Emu Oil Skin Cream


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## Sheltielover25 (Jan 18, 2011)

monster'sdad said:


> You might also think about whether your dog is getting enough zinc. Raw diets are very unbalanced so zinc deficiency could be part of the problem. Calcium blocks zinc absorption as well.




Sillyness. Don't listen to this.


Considering MEAT contains the highest percentages of Zinc and you're feeding a variety of parts like mentioned, highly doubt it's this. BEEF and PORK are the main ways meat-eating Americans get their Zinc. So tell me again how an animal eating a variety of meats would be deficient in zinc?


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## Liz (Sep 27, 2010)

Ah Sheltie Lover don't entertain him he is so constipated with ignorance in the area of raw feeding it is beneath you to argue. :smile:

For our dogs in the first year of raw feeding we needed to add more fat and fatty meats to their diet. I was worried as my vet kept spouting about pancreatitis that I kept their diet too lean. I slowly started upping their fattier meats and leaving more fat on their food until they had wonderful coats and much better body condition. Just up fat slowly starting with fattier curs of meat.


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## Khan (Jan 17, 2010)

Shellie lover & Liz, you hit the nail on the head. I just love how he comes in, spouts some craziness then follows it up with go to the vet. Such insight and knowledge. LOL!


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## Liz (Sep 27, 2010)

Kahn - it becomes tiresome. Let him spout all over the Kibble section and everywhere else but leave us some peace here. Plus lets start with something simple before adding the drama of syndromes and and such. 

I love the expressions on your dogs faces. They always make me smile.


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## kathylcsw (Jul 31, 2011)

Just want to add that *meat is what you eat when you have a zinc deficiency *so I can't see how a raw diet would lead to a deficiency.


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## naturalfeddogs (Jan 6, 2011)

Looks like you have a good variety you are feeding. I would add fish oil daily for omegas. I'm assuming you live in the states? Being that it's cold weather and heat being on the fish oil being given daily can also help that. Winter can be drying. 

And yes, like everyone else is saying, meat is a source of zinc. Obviously MD doesn't know enough about raw feeding and meat nutrients to be advising. Leaving fat on meats will help as well.


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## monster'sdad (Jul 29, 2012)

Sheltielover25 said:


> Sillyness. Don't listen to this.
> 
> 
> Considering MEAT contains the highest percentages of Zinc and you're feeding a variety of parts like mentioned, highly doubt it's this. BEEF and PORK are the main ways meat-eating Americans get their Zinc. So tell me again how an animal eating a variety of meats would be deficient in zinc?


It is very simple. Some dogs have difficulty absorbing zinc unless it is presented in the proper amount and the proper form with controlled calcium levels. High calcium levels can block zinc very easily. It is a problem that is becoming more common because of higher calcium levels in foods.

You obviously don't know much about this subject. It is something for the OP to look into.

Again, you are wrong. I keep count.


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## monster'sdad (Jul 29, 2012)

naturalfeddogs said:


> Looks like you have a good variety you are feeding. I would add fish oil daily for omegas. I'm assuming you live in the states? Being that it's cold weather and heat being on the fish oil being given daily can also help that. Winter can be drying.
> 
> And yes, like everyone else is saying, meat is a source of zinc. Obviously MD doesn't know enough about raw feeding and meat nutrients to be advising. Leaving fat on meats will help as well.


You too another expert.

Chances are this dog has a seasonal alopecia problem. It is extremely common in some breeds. It has nothing to do with temperature.

Zinc deficiency is something for a Dr., not you, to look into.

From Mary Strauss from her Raw Feeding Section:

*"Even diets that contains a wide variety of foods in appropriate proportions may be short on certain nutrients, most commonly vitamins D and E, and the minerals zinc, magnesium, potassium, selenium, and possibly iodine."*

There are more references than I care to post about this deficiency in raw, amateur made diets.


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## Kassandra (Jun 6, 2012)

Monster's Dad, I don't understand why you keep coming to the raw section of the forum. You do not feed raw so it does not make sense to me.

Sure, I guess there is a possibility that this dog is not getting enough zinc, but the likeliness of that is not high. It sounds exactly like what goes on with many of our dogs. Maybe not yours, since you know so much about everything and feed such high quality kibble and there is no way your dogs have anything wrong with them ever. But still, a lot of our dogs go through this, mine included. ME included for god sakes. 

Winter is drying. The cold air outside and heat on inside, the constant temperature changes draws the moisture out of our skin. I have very dry skin anyways which in winter is sometimes unbearable. I take fish oil myself, use lotions and creams, it works to some degree but I still have dry flaky skin and eczema flare-ups. It sucks that my oldest girl has dry skin, too. Giving fish oil daily seems to help a lot. She rarely scratches any more and when she does it's not a whole lot. 

My advice: try fish oil, start out with a small amount and then up it until their skin is no longer dry and flaky. IF that doesn't work, and odds are it will, then you should go to the vet and ask about a possible zinc deficiency. Trust me, you will see results within a few days with fish oil.


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## jezzdobbel8610 (May 27, 2012)

they do get the occasional fish. but ok will try the fish oil and see if that helps. is it better to get liquid stuff or pills?


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## Kassandra (Jun 6, 2012)

I give liquid, some people give pills. There isn't a difference, some people just find it easier to give pills so you know if they ate it all or not.


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## naturalfeddogs (Jan 6, 2011)

Mine get capsules, and eat them like treats.


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## naturalfeddogs (Jan 6, 2011)

Kassandra said:


> Monster's Dad, I don't understand why you keep coming to the raw section of the forum. You do not feed raw so it does not make sense to me.
> 
> Sure, I guess there is a possibility that this dog is not getting enough zinc, but the likeliness of that is not high. It sounds exactly like what goes on with many of our dogs. Maybe not yours, since you know so much about everything and feed such high quality kibble and there is no way your dogs have anything wrong with them ever. But still, a lot of our dogs go through this, mine included. ME included for god sakes.
> 
> ...


I just ignore him. He wants a rise, and if he doesn't get it he'll eventually go back to the kibble section. He's not even worth responding too. Notice, the OP (and others in the past) don't even take his advice. They listen to the raw feeders.


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## Sheltielover25 (Jan 18, 2011)

monster'sdad said:


> You too another expert.
> 
> Chances are this dog has a seasonal alopecia problem. It is extremely common in some breeds. It has nothing to do with temperature.
> 
> ...


Let's see Monster's dad,

Over the next five months my dogs will be eating two meals of deer trim, two meals of green tripe, one meal of deer hearts, a whole prey item for bone in the form of quail (feathers and all) or they will be getting a whole prey bunny divided up week for one 4 oz bone serving, they'll get 2 oz of lamb liver and lamb kidney, and then they will cycle through one meal of beef heart a week for a month, then sardines once a week for a month, and then ground goat once a week for a month, and ground lamb once a week for a month, and then they'll get trachea/lung once a week for a month. Plus this is ALL grass-fed, free-range. So tell me again about amateur diets? Pleaseeee. You WISH you could feed your dog like that.


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## naturalfeddogs (Jan 6, 2011)

Sheltielover25 said:


> Let's see Monster's dad,
> 
> Over the next five months my dogs will be eating two meals of deer trim, two meals of green tripe, one meal of deer hearts, a whole prey item for bone in the form of quail (feathers and all) or they will be getting a whole prey bunny divided up week for one 4 oz bone serving, they'll get 2 oz of lamb liver and lamb kidney, and then they will cycle through one meal of beef heart a week for a month, then sardines once a week for a month, and then ground goat once a week for a month, and ground lamb once a week for a month, and then they'll get trachea/lung once a week for a month. Plus this is ALL grass-fed, free-range. So tell me again about amateur diets? Pleaseeee. You WISH you could feed your dog like that.


I think his kibble has a better chance of coming up short than that meal plan for sure. Way better quality than what's in his kibble for sure!


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## meggels (May 30, 2010)

Unosmom said:


> It's probably weather related, both of my dogs get dry skin and some dandruff during winter months, doesn't help that they like to sleep in front of a fireplace every night. I use fish oil (salmon) every day and they get fresh local eggs 2-3 times a week. I also recommend a product called Kalaya emu oil skin cream, it works well to moisturize skin and coat externally Kalaya Emu Oil Skin Cream


Just wanted to second this suggestion. I have never used the cream, but my friends store sells god knows how many of their emu oil sprays. It really helps in so many different areas. It conditions and moisturizes the skin and coat, and it also has an anti-bacterial (or anti-fungal, I can't remember...) property and will take care any of that on your pets skin or coat. 

And it smells pretty nice


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## Unosmom (May 3, 2009)

^ yes it rocks, I've used the spray followed by the cream when Uno's coat gets really dry. Indy has been itching like crazy last week and I was worried because I thought he developed another food sensitivity, then I gave him an oatmeal bath and rubbed cream into his coat and he hasn't scratched since.


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## monster'sdad (Jul 29, 2012)

naturalfeddogs said:


> I think his kibble has a better chance of coming up short than that meal plan for sure. Way better quality than what's in his kibble for sure!


Tell this guy that:


*"Team Momentum news;

Mike Christman and Ridge, of Neenah, Wisconsin took 1st place in the ski jour race last weekend in Land o' Lakes, Wisconsin. It was a 2 dog race but they competed just with one dog. 

The best part is that Mike and Ridge also beat all thirty 4 dog sled teams that were competing in their own race on the same trail both days. Holy cow they have the Momentum!

Mike said after the race; “1st place at all the races in the mid west. Now to carry that momentum to Alaska at the world championships…”* [/B]

Enough said.


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## monster'sdad (Jul 29, 2012)

Sheltielover25 said:


> Let's see Monster's dad,
> 
> Over the next five months my dogs will be eating two meals of deer trim, two meals of green tripe, one meal of deer hearts, a whole prey item for bone in the form of quail (feathers and all) or they will be getting a whole prey bunny divided up week for one 4 oz bone serving, they'll get 2 oz of lamb liver and lamb kidney, and then they will cycle through one meal of beef heart a week for a month, then sardines once a week for a month, and then ground goat once a week for a month, and ground lamb once a week for a month, and then they'll get trachea/lung once a week for a month. Plus this is ALL grass-fed, free-range. So tell me again about amateur diets? Pleaseeee. You WISH you could feed your dog like that.


Inferior and yes amateur...you will get over this phase.


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## whiteleo (Sep 7, 2008)

monster'sdad said:


> Inferior and yes amateur...you will get over this phase.


Please go away, your not wanted here!


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## MollyWoppy (Mar 19, 2010)

FWIW, from what I've read, zinc deficiency is something that, if it happens, is mainly seen in Huskies. Some Huskies are predispositioned towards it.
My dog gets itchy and loses some hair every Feb/March. We live in Florida so we aren't in front of heaters or fires so I don't have a clue why it happens.
What I have found that works is increasing the salmon oil and adding in a good quality coconut oil to her diet. Also, bathing in Zymox shampoo, rinsing really, really well and using the Zymox conditioner. If she still itches, I massage the conditioner through her fur onto the skin and leave it on, don't wash it out. This really seems to help.
I'd be very interested in the Emu Oil Skin Cream too, looks like that would do the same thing, but in a more natural way. 

And, please ignore MD. He has an unhealthy obsession with this forum. It appears to be his quest in life to disprove that dogs can survive and even thrive on a raw diet.


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## Roo (Oct 17, 2010)

> Tell this guy that:
> 
> 
> "Team Momentum news;
> ...


Speaking of Team Momentum, Monster's Dad, I know you've only been a member of this forum since July of 2012, so you might have missed Dr. Tim's own thoughts on raw. . .

_"I do raw with the kibble, many on the forum do all raw-I think that is great. But many folks can't do it, lose interest/time/etc. It is labor intensive. Shoot, I have done raw for 18 years for 30 or more dogs twice daily. I understand that end of things. 1000 lbs of beef a month I would go through. But, with the realization that folks can't all do that ultimately best diet (raw), I devised a kibbled diet to reflect what I believe to be the closest possible without window dressing, I.e., fluff ingredients that I don't see as beneficial unless you use enough of them."_
http://dogfoodchat.com/forum/dry-canned-dog-food/7501-dr-tims-pet-foods-7.html#post78620

_"I have to say, I am 4 for 4 on chronic skin cases that have completely cleared using the raw food method. We have had some real interesting questions coming through our Ask Dr Tim site and the raw has been one of them. I am endorsing your methods, Bill."_
http://dogfoodchat.com/forum/dog-health-issues-question/10146-dog-food-allergies-2.html#post113599

_"If you want raw meat benefits, feed raw meat. No way to mass produce this idea with the current methods."_
http://dogfoodchat.com/forum/dry-ca...xpect-much-champion-petfood-3.html#post112400
_
"Talk to your vet about using prednisone in a pulse type fashion versus a whole bunch all the time. Also, there is an herbal called lymphomax that I use in addition to raw meat, antioxidants and omega 3 fish oil. I was able to keep mine going for almost 2 years when he had LSA."_
http://dogfoodchat.com/forum/dog-he...t-diagnosed-w-lymphosarcoma-4.html#post122899


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## monster'sdad (Jul 29, 2012)

Kassandra said:


> Monster's Dad, I don't understand why you keep coming to the raw section of the forum. You do not feed raw so it does not make sense to me.
> 
> Sure, I guess there is a possibility that this dog is not getting enough zinc, but the likeliness of that is not high. It sounds exactly like what goes on with many of our dogs. Maybe not yours, since you know so much about everything and feed such high quality kibble and there is no way your dogs have anything wrong with them ever. But still, a lot of our dogs go through this, mine included. ME included for god sakes.
> 
> ...


You won't see any improvement on fish oil. 

*If you read what I wrote, hair loss and limited balding this time of year is commonly related to a lack of sunlight exposure. I mentioned zinc as something else to look into.* The OP mentioned this happens each year. The chance it is seasona (light dependent) alopecia is pretty high IMO.

If all your dogs lose their hair because the heat is on, then it proves my point about how you feed.

I know more about raw feeding then all of you, that is why I don't do it.


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## Unosmom (May 3, 2009)

can you ban someone for being annoying? lets take a vote.


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## monster'sdad (Jul 29, 2012)

Unosmom said:


> can you ban someone for being annoying? lets take a vote.


Can you ban people for playing veterinarian?


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## Unosmom (May 3, 2009)

> Can you ban people for playing veterinarian?


are you referring to yourself?


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## MollyWoppy (Mar 19, 2010)

Well, in Florida, I don't think it's a case of lack of sunshine or having the heat on. It's been 80deg plus most of this year. Low humidity too. I think our problem lies in allergies with grass or the low humidity this time of year. She has this problem every year, kibble or raw. And I know other dogs here (kibble and raw) who do too. The fish oil, coconut oil and Zymox do work for us. Sorry.


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## Roo (Oct 17, 2010)

> I know more about raw feeding then all of you, that is why I don't do it.


"9. IF YOU DON'T HAVE ANYTHING NICE TO SAY, THEN DON'T SAY IT AT ALL. I'd say within the last six months or so it has become more and more of a problem that people just say downright mean things to each other, say things in a rude manner, without much thought to the audience. So, lets just do a general rule that if you really don't have something nice to say, or if what you have to say isn't nice, polite and constructive just don't say it. Telling people they'er lazy for feeding kibble...not cool. Telling people they're killing their pets with vaccines and chemicals....not cool. If you can't find a nice, constructive way to put your thoughts on the post, they're no longer welcome here. Too many people are being turned away, and getting hurt and that is NOT WHAT THIS FORUM IS ABOUT. This forum is about HELPING people...even if you don't agree with them. So lets cut the crap and just be helpful. "

http://dogfoodchat.com/forum/introduce-yourself/15833-general-forum-rules-new-members-must-read.html


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## Herzo (Feb 5, 2011)

It seems to me it's coming down not to whats right but who's right. It's getting so old. The way of the world.

It seems so unfortunate that I do believe MD probably has some good points and I would like to take them into consideration, but when the attitude comes into it I will just discount it. Very sad really, when your point is not all that good you must hurl insults, look at politics these days, if you don't like what people believe call them names make fun of them don't just give facts and let one make up there own mind.

That person must be discredited. Well give him this, I think this is his longest run on this forum so maybe he is learning something as he seems much nicer than his last how ever many names. Maybe not much, maybe some is a better word.


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## Liz (Sep 27, 2010)

jezzdobbel8610 - Add the oil and some fattier cuts to your dog's diet also groom regularly to stimulate circulation. Once there are no tangles or mats something like a Zoom Groom is nice on the skin. Make sure you are not bathing too much and rinse and rinse again so there is no soap left on that skin.


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## meggels (May 30, 2010)

Unosmom said:


> ^ yes it rocks, I've used the spray followed by the cream when Uno's coat gets really dry. Indy has been itching like crazy last week and I was worried because I thought he developed another food sensitivity, then I gave him an oatmeal bath and rubbed cream into his coat and he hasn't scratched since.


Nice! I really love the smell of it too. Dunno if all emu oil smells like that, but I like the Kalaya one!


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## monster'sdad (Jul 29, 2012)

The OP's dog probably has a minor medical condition, based on the comment that it happens every year in the winter, that many dogs have to some degree. Whether it needs treatment or not is the decision of a trained medical professional.

I recommended getting the advice of a medical professional, rather than the standard approach by laypeople which is to recommend fish oil or some other elixer because of something they read on another website.

I realize for some people that type of advice is hard to swallow.


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## Sheltielover25 (Jan 18, 2011)

yet another good week I have


monster'sdad said:


> Inferior and yes amateur...you will get over this phase.


Is your silly health things you think a phase? Didn't think so. I'm close to 30, and very confident in the way I've been feeding my animals for the last two plus years. Should I switch them back to Tim's or another kibble so they'll go back to have seizures? Is this what you'd recommend? Get over yourself. You don't know more than any of us, you only know what you've been brainwashed to believe. Again, when you look at my dogs and see they'll never need a dental/never have nothing but perfect stools/and nothing but muscle definition, you can't argue their health. Even vets who have been brainwashed for eight years are amazed by their health/blood tests.

Your comments like "go to a dog show and see what healthy is" or however you phrased it show you know little about health. Lots of very attractive looking people drop dead everyday due to health issues. I've said before, I'm 100lbs 5'4 and in good shape physical-wise but does that mean I feel as good as I'm capable? Hell no. I don't think you understand the difference between living and thriving... that's the main thing. I'm living alright, but I sure as hell don't feel as good as I should If I ate/exercised the way I should!


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## Sheltielover25 (Jan 18, 2011)

Roo said:


> Speaking of Team Momentum, Monster's Dad, I know you've only been a member of this forum since July of 2012, so you might have missed Dr. Tim's own thoughts on raw. . .
> 
> _"I do raw with the kibble, many on the forum do all raw-I think that is great. But many folks can't do it, lose interest/time/etc. It is labor intensive. Shoot, I have done raw for 18 years for 30 or more dogs twice daily. I understand that end of things. 1000 lbs of beef a month I would go through. But, with the realization that folks can't all do that ultimately best diet (raw), I devised a kibbled diet to reflect what I believe to be the closest possible without window dressing, I.e., fluff ingredients that I don't see as beneficial unless you use enough of them."_
> http://dogfoodchat.com/forum/dry-canned-dog-food/7501-dr-tims-pet-foods-7.html#post78620
> ...


You're good. This is awesome


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## naturalfeddogs (Jan 6, 2011)

Roo said:


> "9. IF YOU DON'T HAVE ANYTHING NICE TO SAY, THEN DON'T SAY IT AT ALL. I'd say within the last six months or so it has become more and more of a problem that people just say downright mean things to each other, say things in a rude manner, without much thought to the audience. So, lets just do a general rule that if you really don't have something nice to say, or if what you have to say isn't nice, polite and constructive just don't say it. Telling people they'er lazy for feeding kibble...not cool. Telling people they're killing their pets with vaccines and chemicals....not cool. If you can't find a nice, constructive way to put your thoughts on the post, they're no longer welcome here. Too many people are being turned away, and getting hurt and that is NOT WHAT THIS FORUM IS ABOUT. This forum is about HELPING people...even if you don't agree with them. So lets cut the crap and just be helpful. "
> 
> http://dogfoodchat.com/forum/introduce-yourself/15833-general-forum-rules-new-members-must-read.html



The only one I'm seeing who is making nasty rude comments and trying to start crap is MD,and I won't respond to any of his posts. They aren't even there as far as I'm concerned. I ignore him and continue on with the topic. His whole point isn't to give any real advice, considering he has none to give. He's a s**t starter plain and simple. As long as his posts are ignored, all will be well.


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## jezzdobbel8610 (May 27, 2012)

ok thanks for your advices everybody, we started giving her salmon oil, and will look into getting emu oil lotion somewhere. If it doesn't improve will take to vet for bloodwork. Thanks everybody.


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## frogdog (Aug 10, 2011)

I would suggest feeding whole fish more often and even daily if possible. Yogi's coat started looking unhealthy, more coarse and realized he wasn't getting enough fat in his diet...upped his fat and two weeks later gorgeous again. (just a suggestion)


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