# My top choices



## MarkM (Apr 4, 2013)

My wife and I finally settled and figured out some foods we thought were good enough quality for our dogs. We have a 6 month old jackabee and a 14 week old rott/shar pei. This was our selection of choice: wellness core puppy formula, blue wilderness puppy, blue buffalo puppy life protection formula, halo puppy wholesome chicken and wild samon recipes, Merrick classic puppy all breeds, or Merrick ALS? Please list from most preferred to least. 

Ps- how much protein is too much protein? Also how would you transition into new foods?


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## Elliehanna (Jan 16, 2012)

hmm I am not sure on what one I would list where (I am a PMR feeder) BUT I want to see a photo of your rott/shar pei mix!


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## SaharaNight Boxers (Jun 28, 2011)

I'd say Wilderness, Core, Life Protection, Halo, Merrick. 

I raised Duke on Blue, first the Life Protection, then the Wilderness. He did fine until the end. I know not everyone likes Blue, but they haven't had any major recalls and I trust them. Merrick's had too many problems for me. 

I wouldn't say you can have too much protein in kibble. I do think you need to make sure you float the kibble or give enough water though. And I switched slowly and cold turkey before between kibbles. I think either way is fine.


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## Roo (Oct 17, 2010)

I'd say Wellness core, Halo, Blue Wilderness, and lastly Merrick, but I may be out of the loop with kibble, hopefully DaViking will chime in, I think he often gives good advice when it comes to commercial dog foods.


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## Dobelover (Mar 14, 2013)

I'd stay away from Merrick...I would recommend Summit Go fit and Free formula...it worked great for our puppy until we switched to raw. It's grain free and has fantastic protein sources.


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## MarkM (Apr 4, 2013)

Dobelover said:


> I'd stay away from Merrick...I would recommend Summit Go fit and Free formula...it worked great for our puppy until we switched to raw. It's grain free and has fantastic protein sources.


Where did you get such foods?


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## MarkM (Apr 4, 2013)

I think I sent the pictures.. Haha, his name is Bocephus or more commonly Bo. Nevermind.. Didn't allow me to send, hang on.


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## MarkM (Apr 4, 2013)

I really hope this works


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## doggiedad (Jan 23, 2011)

is a jackabee a Jack Russel and bee? i've never fed puppy food to my dogs. i switch my dog's kibble often
and i top his kibble with a variety things.



MarkM said:


> My wife and I finally settled and figured out some foods we thought were good enough quality for our dogs. We have a
> 
> >>>>> 6 month old jackabee <<<<<<
> 
> ...


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## MarkM (Apr 4, 2013)

doggiedad said:


> is a jackabee a Jack Russel and bee? i've never fed puppy food to my dogs. i switch my dog's kibble often
> and i top his kibble with a variety things.


Haha, It means jack Russell mixed with beagle.

Also why no puppy food? Doesn't it hold the requirements for proper growth?


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## Dobelover (Mar 14, 2013)

Bought ours at a pet store...and it's not so much the protein level in the food. You want to look at the metabolizable energy, the higher the better.


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## Elliehanna (Jan 16, 2012)

awwww Bo is WAY TO CUTE!!!!!!!!


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## DaViking (Sep 27, 2011)

MarkM said:


> My wife and I finally settled and figured out some foods we thought were good enough quality for our dogs. We have a 6 month old jackabee and a 14 week old rott/shar pei. This was our selection of choice: wellness core puppy formula, blue wilderness puppy, blue buffalo puppy life protection formula, halo puppy wholesome chicken and wild samon recipes, Merrick classic puppy all breeds, or Merrick ALS? Please list from most preferred to least.
> 
> Ps- how much protein is too much protein? Also how would you transition into new foods?


Of those I'd go with Wellness Core. Never cared much for BB, non of their marketing sit well with me and the food is nothing to rave about when you peel away the commercials. How did you end up with this shortlist? What brands did you "discard"?


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## doggiedad (Jan 23, 2011)

pick a brand and read the analysis for puppy food, all life stages, etc.
and compare. when i feed fresh meat, chicken or fish there's no adult
or puppy version.



MarkM said:


> Haha, It means jack Russell mixed with beagle.
> 
> Also why no puppy food? Doesn't it hold the requirements for proper growth?


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## Sillydogs (Mar 30, 2013)

Never fed wellness, halo, or merrick. BB puppy gave mine loose stool, although she was only 11 weeks at the time, but havent tryed it again since. The foods that my pup did good on was 1st Grandma Mae's country naturals puppy food (which cleared her loose stool from the BB pretty much over night), then Grandma Mae's country naturals grain free, and now on Acana Wild Prairie all life stages and she is doing great at 4 n a 1/2 months old.


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## monster'sdad (Jul 29, 2012)

Those look like all foods available at Petco and Petsmart. If that is where you wanna shop, I would just buy Pro Plan, Eukanuba, Royal Canin or Eagle Pack.

If you wonder what type of kennel uses Pro Plan, well here you go,

http://www.crystalkennels.com/honorroll.cfm
http://www.crystalkennels.com/josh.cfm

And if anyone on here is competing at this level, let me know.

Sounds like you have two dogs that will be companions, so you need not go crazy trying to feed them.


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## MarkM (Apr 4, 2013)

Dobelover said:


> Bought ours at a pet store...and it's not so much the protein level in the food. You want to look at the metabolizable energy, the higher the better.


What do you mean the metabolizable energy?


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## MarkM (Apr 4, 2013)

Elliehanna said:


> awwww Bo is WAY TO CUTE!!!!!!!!


Haha thanks!


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## MarkM (Apr 4, 2013)

DaViking said:


> Of those I'd go with Wellness Core. Never cared much for BB, non of their marketing sit well with me and the food is nothing to rave about when you peel away the commercials. How did you end up with this shortlist? What brands did you "discard"?


We ended up with this list because it met the requirements we set for our puppy. Eukanuba, pedigree, purina, science diet, longevity, some organic stuff, nutro, natural choice, etc.


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## MarkM (Apr 4, 2013)

monster'sdad said:


> Those look like all foods available at Petco and Petsmart. If that is where you wanna shop, I would just buy Pro Plan, Eukanuba, Royal Canin or Eagle Pack.
> 
> If you wonder what type of kennel uses Pro Plan, well here you go,
> 
> ...


We didn't like the ingredients, protein/fat levels, etc in those. They were fairly far from decent protein and fat, from what we've researched. They may not be competitors, but for our companions; we still want good quality food.


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## monster'sdad (Jul 29, 2012)

MarkM said:


> We didn't like the ingredients, protein/fat levels, etc in those. They were fairly far from decent protein and fat, from what we've researched. They may not be competitors, but for our companions; we still want good quality food.


So you are suggesting you know more that trainer/breeder? This is the utter foolishness of these discussions.


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## InkedMarie (Sep 9, 2011)

Bocephus is cute! Would you be interested in ordering online?


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## Georgiapeach (Jan 24, 2011)

I'd feed BB Freedom over the Wilderness line. I've heard of too many problems with loose stool with the Wilderness line (not overfeeding either). I'm not crazy about feeding a puppy, especially a large one a high protein kibble. Slow, steady growth is better for their joints, IMO - with protein being no higher than 28% for the first year.


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## monster'sdad (Jul 29, 2012)

Georgiapeach said:


> I'd feed BB Freedom over the Wilderness line. I've heard of too many problems with loose stool with the Wilderness line (not overfeeding either). I'm not crazy about feeding a puppy, especially a large one a high protein kibble. Slow, steady growth is better for their joints, IMO - with protein being no higher than 28% for the first year.


Why is above 28% bad? Is there some evidence it is bad?


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## MarkM (Apr 4, 2013)

monster'sdad said:


> So you are suggesting you know more that trainer/breeder? This is the utter foolishness of these discussions.


No. Those were the requirement from breeders/trainers. People that have experience.


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## MarkM (Apr 4, 2013)

Inkedmarie, Yeah maybe it's a possibility. And thanks


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## Liz (Sep 27, 2010)

MarkM - just feed what you are comfortable with, you owe no explanations or data to anyone, and you don't have to agree with a food just because a breeder or trainer feeds their dogs that food. DaViking and others gave some good suggestions. Finding a food you are happy with and your dog does well one can sometimes be daunting. I am glad you are researching for yourself as well as getting input from others. I hope you find something that works very well for your pup and you are happy to feed. He is adorable.


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## monster'sdad (Jul 29, 2012)

Liz said:


> MarkM - just feed what you are comfortable with, you owe no explanations or data to anyone, and you don't have to agree with a food just because a breeder or trainer feeds their dogs that food. DaViking and others gave some good suggestions. Finding a food you are happy with and your dog does well one can sometimes be daunting. I am glad you are researching for yourself as well as getting input from others. I hope you find something that works very well for your pup and you are happy to feed. He is adorable.


I disagree with you. The reason I mentioned Judy Zeigler and put up those links because she is an extremely well known dog expert, just like JP Yousha on the other thread. Forums are a really good place for misinformation to flourish, so I thought the OP should know what an expert like Ms. Zeigler uses.

Liz, why is it you discount the opinions and practices of people with such high credentials?


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## DaViking (Sep 27, 2011)

MarkM said:


> We ended up with this list because it met the requirements we set for our puppy. Eukanuba, pedigree, purina, science diet, longevity, some organic stuff, nutro, natural choice, etc.


Ok. If you elaborate a little more on your requirements maybe we will be able to help you come up with more and better alternatives than your original shortlist?
Just a little tip. Don't be too hung up on theoretical numbers like absolute protein and fat numbers. Unless we have a perfect world where all dogs are identical and all foods use the same ingredients and have identical digestibility those numbers mean very little. Brand A 22/12 might provide better nutrition for an individual than a brand B 28/18 food.


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## Liz (Sep 27, 2010)

I don't remember discounting the breeder, rather was supporting the informed choices of the OP without challenging their choices. They stated clearly what they were looking for and what they were comfortable feeding. It seems like a lose - lose situation. If I say anything against processed food there is an attack and if I support someone who is making informed choices then I am wrong again. They are researching and discussing options so to me that shows they care and are better informed than the average owner, if they state they have particular desires they want to try to meet in feeding their dog I support them in their choices. I never negated the breeder and their practices, only defended the OP choices.


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## monster'sdad (Jul 29, 2012)

Liz said:


> I don't remember discounting the breeder, rather was supporting the informed choices of the OP without challenging their choices. They stated clearly what they were looking for and what they were comfortable feeding. It seems like a lose - lose situation. If I say anything against processed food there is an attack and if I support someone who is making informed choices then I am wrong again. They are researching and discussing options so to me that shows they care and are better informed than the average owner, if they state they have particular desires they want to try to meet in feeding their dog I support them in their choices. I never negated the breeder and their practices, only defended the OP choices.


I don't think people really get objective advice on here. It is what they "feel". It is probably a good idea that someone points out that some really serious and accomplished dog people use foods that are considered second rate because they don't cater to the label reading crowd.


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## MarkM (Apr 4, 2013)

DaViking said:


> Ok. If you elaborate a little more on your requirements maybe we will be able to help you come up with more and better alternatives than your original shortlist?
> Just a little tip. Don't be too hung up on theoretical numbers like absolute protein and fat numbers. Unless we have a perfect world where all dogs are identical and all foods use the same ingredients and have identical digestibility those numbers mean very little. Brand A 22/12 might provide better nutrition for an individual than a brand B 28/18 food.



But those requirement were highly recommended for larger breed puppy's for proper growth.


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## Liz (Sep 27, 2010)

Suggestions and counsel are great. Comments like 

"So you are suggesting you know more that trainer/breeder? This is the utter foolishness of these discussions."

are rude and inflammatory and serve only to shut down discourse. If someone states what they desire in a food I thought you would strive to help them find something that would fit the bill rather than belittling their decisions. There are so many kibbles out there I can't imagine it is that impossible to find something that would closely meet their criteria. It is very nice to see this group come together and help people find a food that will meet the dog's need and the owners desires. I thought that was what we were here to do - help each other. It seems I am mistaken.


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## MarkM (Apr 4, 2013)

Amen Liz


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## DaViking (Sep 27, 2011)

MarkM said:


> But those requirement were highly recommended for larger breed puppy's for proper growth.


This is the only requirements I found in the other thread you started. "28% protein, 18% fat, at least 1% calcium and phosphorus" That's not much to go by and I am pretty sure you can find the whole specter of foods fitting this. From el crappo foods to uber expensive stuff. There is way more to finding a great food for the individual than to just sniff out brands that fit some theoretical numbers. I knew something was up when I saw your shortlist because non of those foods are what you typically see in large and giant breed circles.


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## MarkM (Apr 4, 2013)

The protein and fat is the minimum. How is it theoretical? Those are the percentages that are highly recommended for proper growth for a larger dog. I think I have said this before. Oh, and that short list is what we found at pet co that met those requirements, that we saw.


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## DaViking (Sep 27, 2011)

MarkM said:


> The protein and fat is the minimum. How is it theoretical? Those are the percentages that are highly recommended for proper growth for a larger dog. I think I have said this before. Oh, and that short list is what we found at pet co that met those requirements, that we saw.


It's theoretical because it does not say anything about digestibility and how your individual will digest the food. For example, I said from the list I'd go with Wellness but based on experience Wellness core doesn't have a broad acceptance meaning optimal digestion is anything but guaranteed, which in turn mean that some of the energy and the protein will pass through undigested. Result, a 28/18 food is no longer a 28/18 food. Panel data means little against real life digestion.

This is one of the most widely used puppy food for large and giant breeds. As you can see it is not a 28/18 food. http://www.eaglepack.com/product-orignal-dog.aspx?product=82#.UWDU072ebms The adult version doesn't differ much but have less minerals. http://www.eaglepack.com/product-orignal-dog.aspx?product=85#.UWDVIr2ebms


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## MarkM (Apr 4, 2013)

DaViking said:


> It's theoretical because it does not say anything about digestibility and how your individual will digest the food. For example, I said from the list I'd go with Wellness but based on experience Wellness core doesn't have a broad acceptance meaning optimal digestion is anything but guaranteed, which in turn mean that some of the energy and the protein will pass through undigested. Result, a 28/18 food is no longer a 28/18 food. Panel data means little against real life digestion.
> 
> This is one of the most widely used puppy food for large and giant breeds. As you can see it is not a 28/18 food. Eagle Pack - Large & Giant Breed Puppy The adult version doesn't differ much but have less minerals. Eagle Pack - Large & Giant Breed Adult



Ok.. Then why were my requirements highly recommended then? Other than the previous foods you listed I.E. pro plan, what do you suggest?


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## riddick4811 (Nov 2, 2011)

I have raised several giant breed dogs from puppyhood and several large breed dogs 80-100lbs at maturity. I fed the heavier boned dog (Danes, Mastiffs) adult food with protein 23-25 % and fat 12-15% (these were grain inclusive foods). Lighter boned dogs that had trouble maintaining weight (Dobes, Greyhounds) ate high protein/fat food 30/20. Raised a litter of Dobe pups on Pro Plan Performance and they did fabulous. Current Greyhound puppy is 8 months old 29" tall/68lbs and eating a 32/20 food. 

Pro Plan and Eagle Pack were 2 foods I used to the most with puppies. Worked for me, never had an issue with their growth. No pano, deformities, etc. 

Wellness was the worst food by far that I've ever fed, digestibility sucks IME.


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## DaViking (Sep 27, 2011)

MarkM said:


> Ok.. Then why were my requirements highly recommended then? Other than the previous foods you listed I.E. pro plan, what do you suggest?


The person who recommended this did they actually feed any of the foods on your list? Did he/she actually recommend a brand or did you figure out this list yourself based on the 4 requirements he/she mentioned?

I never listed or recommended ProPlan, that was Monster.

First of all, portion control is very important with large and giant breeds. I know a few owners with large working dogs and among those who take nutrition more seriously than the average owner I'd say Royal Canin, Eagle Pack, Holistic Select and Now are well liked. But by all means, you'll find large breeds fed all kinds of food. Monster like Bil-Jac and I see some giant breed owners swear to it. Dr Tims Kinesis should work too. Hope this helps


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## lauren43 (Feb 6, 2011)

All I'll say is I'm not a fan of Wellness, Tess (who eats everything) liked it for a while then stopped eating it..


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## MarkM (Apr 4, 2013)

DaViking said:


> The person who recommended this did they actually feed any of the foods on your list? Did he/she actually recommend a brand or did you figure out this list yourself based on the 4 requirements he/she mentioned?
> 
> I never listed or recommended ProPlan, that was Monster.
> 
> First of all, portion control is very important with large and giant breeds. I know a few owners with large working dogs and among those who take nutrition more seriously than the average owner I'd say Royal Canin, Eagle Pack, Holistic Select and Now are well liked. But by all means, you'll find large breeds fed all kinds of food. Monster like Bil-Jac and I see some giant breed owners swear to it. Dr Tims Kinesis should work too. Hope this helps


some of them were recommended, such as BB and and wellness. Whether or not they used it.. I don't know.


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## Dobelover (Mar 14, 2013)

ME is defined as the amount of energy available from pet food once the energy lost in the feces, urine, and combustible gases has been subtracted. Essentially, ME is the energy left for your pet's body to use once all digestion is complete.
The protein level is also related to the digestibility and the ME per cup or other volume. protein level does not directly affect developmental orthopedic disease. Body condition score, rate or growth, calcium levels are important. Calcium taken in by the dog is not just related to the level on the food, but by the ME level.


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## MarkM (Apr 4, 2013)

Dobelover said:


> ME is defined as the amount of energy available from pet food once the energy lost in the feces, urine, and combustible gases has been subtracted. Essentially, ME is the energy left for your pet's body to use once all digestion is complete.
> The protein level is also related to the digestibility and the ME per cup or other volume. protein level does not directly affect developmental orthopedic disease. Body condition score, rate or growth, calcium levels are important. Calcium taken in by the dog is not just related to the level on the food, but by the ME level.


Oh ok. So you do you determine the "ME" in the food?


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## monster'sdad (Jul 29, 2012)

MarkM said:


> Oh ok. So you do you determine the "ME" in the food?


The ME calories (per kg of food) are listed on the bag, use it as a guide but don't make your buying decision based on that. You can always just adjust the amount of food you feed based on activity and time of year.


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## MarkM (Apr 4, 2013)

So the ME is the calories a cup? What would I want to look for in that? 430+ calories?


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## monster'sdad (Jul 29, 2012)

MarkM said:


> So the ME is the calories a cup? What would I want to look for in that? 430+ calories?


The cup measurement of calories is not a good guide because some kibbles fit better in the cup so the cups weighs more. You want to look at calories per KG or LB of the food. Don't obsess about it because its not very important for the average pet owner and the differences between similar foods are not significant. Judge by how the dog looks and feels not by calories. Don't decide which food is best for your dogs because of something like calories. 

However, they do vary by the cup (measured cup) because kibble sizes and shapes are not uniform.


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## MarkM (Apr 4, 2013)

Oh ok thanks, that makes sense


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## Dobelover (Mar 14, 2013)

The higher the ME the more dense the calories the more your dog gets out of the food. So it does play an important role in deciding what to feed. Also, just looking at the ingredient list is a big deal. You want to see good protein sources, no grains, fillers etc. If you go to dogfoodadvisor.com they list out some great foods for you...how the protein sources are listed is extremely important. Obviously it is listed by weight. But if whole chicken is the first ingredient that means it includes the water still so of course it's the heaviest. You want to see proteins like chicken meal, turkey meal, de-boned chicken, de-boned salmon, salmon meal etc. You don't want to see gluten...of course dogs stools will be good on a food that contains gluten...that's what's it's supposed to do..bulk up the stool. If you like food that contains corn, cornmeal, etc then go for it. But it's not as healthy a choice.


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## DaViking (Sep 27, 2011)

Dobelover said:


> of course dogs stools will be good on a food that contains gluten...that's what's it's supposed to do..bulk up the stool.


No. Corn and wheat gluten meal does *not* bulk up the stool, quite the opposite. They are highly highly digestible and are excellent sources of *complementary* amino acids among other things.

Fillers? Fillers are in the eye of the beholder. In terms of digestion and metabolically very very few dog foods today have "fillers"


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## Dobelover (Mar 14, 2013)

Yes they will bulk up the stool. Some fiber sources have a dual effect...rice does too. Example of purina pro plan...first few ingredients..Chicken, brewers rice, whole grain wheat, poultry by-product meal, corn gluten meal, whole grain corn, 
Chicken is first but of course it is because the water in it makes it the heaviest. Dogs can't digest whole grains, just like they can't digest whole vegetables. When corn is ground it becomes more digestible but also raises the glycemic index.
Just go to www.dogfoodadvisor.com to help you understand each ingredient. There are fillers in dog foods..especially the "cheap" ones.


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## monster'sdad (Jul 29, 2012)

Dobelover said:


> The higher the ME the more dense the calories the more your dog gets out of the food. So it does play an important role in deciding what to feed. Also, just looking at the ingredient list is a big deal. You want to see good protein sources, no grains, fillers etc. If you go to dogfoodadvisor.com they list out some great foods for you...how the protein sources are listed is extremely important. Obviously it is listed by weight. But if whole chicken is the first ingredient that means it includes the water still so of course it's the heaviest. You want to see proteins like chicken meal, turkey meal, de-boned chicken, de-boned salmon, salmon meal etc. You don't want to see gluten...of course dogs stools will be good on a food that contains gluten...that's what's it's supposed to do..bulk up the stool. If you like food that contains corn, cornmeal, etc then go for it. But it's not as healthy a choice.


So next year at Westminster stop by the Doberman area, any breed area for that matter, and explain to the all the dog owners and handlers there using Pro Plan, Eukanuba & Royal Canin how wrong they are and how right you are. Keep in mind those owners have spent well over $100,000 to get to that show over the course of a year or two and would find the advice helpful.

I will bring the popcorn.


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## monster'sdad (Jul 29, 2012)

Dobelover said:


> Yes they will bulk up the stool. Some fiber sources have a dual effect...rice does too. Example of purina pro plan...first few ingredients..Chicken, brewers rice, whole grain wheat, poultry by-product meal, corn gluten meal, whole grain corn,
> Chicken is first but of course it is because the water in it makes it the heaviest. Dogs can't digest whole grains, just like they can't digest whole vegetables. When corn is ground it becomes more digestible but also raises the glycemic index.
> Just go to Dog Food Reviews and Ratings | Dog Food Advisor to help you understand each ingredient. There are fillers in dog foods..especially the "cheap" ones.


Yes the Glycemic Index, I forgot.


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## monster'sdad (Jul 29, 2012)

Dobelover said:


> The higher the ME the more dense the calories the more your dog gets out of the food. So it does play an important role in deciding what to feed. Also, just looking at the ingredient list is a big deal. You want to see good protein sources, no grains, fillers etc. If you go to dogfoodadvisor.com they list out some great foods for you...how the protein sources are listed is extremely important. Obviously it is listed by weight. But if whole chicken is the first ingredient that means it includes the water still so of course it's the heaviest. You want to see proteins like chicken meal, turkey meal, de-boned chicken, de-boned salmon, salmon meal etc. You don't want to see gluten...of course dogs stools will be good on a food that contains gluten...that's what's it's supposed to do..bulk up the stool. If you like food that contains corn, cornmeal, etc then go for it. But it's not as healthy a choice.


I don't think you understand how ME is calculated and what the limitations are. Do some homework on it.


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## DaViking (Sep 27, 2011)

Dobelover said:


> Yes they will bulk up the stool. Some fiber sources have a dual effect...rice does too. Example of purina pro plan...first few ingredients..Chicken, brewers rice, whole grain wheat, poultry by-product meal, corn gluten meal, whole grain corn,
> Chicken is first but of course it is because the water in it makes it the heaviest. Dogs can't digest whole grains, just like they can't digest whole vegetables. When corn is ground it becomes more digestible but also raises the glycemic index.
> Just go to Dog Food Reviews and Ratings | Dog Food Advisor to help you understand each ingredient. There are fillers in dog foods..especially the "cheap" ones.


With all due respect but except for the water weight pretty much nothing of this is correct. Corn and wheat protein isolates are 99% digestible and will absolutely not bulk up any stool. That's why they are used in low residue LIP foods. Secondly, look up what "whole" means in this context. They are milled and processed intact or "whole" if you want. Some of it are digestible some is not and form part of the total dietary fiber. The dietary fiber is carefully calculated to achieve appropriate transit times of the digesta. Thank you very much but dogfoodadvisor.com is a poor source of information. It's only good as a rolodex of brands, nothing more. There is more incorrect information on that website than any other pet food related site.

Lol, yes, if something is not digestible it's pretty low on the glycemic index, sorry


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## DaViking (Sep 27, 2011)

To put this in a real life context. I'd much rather buy a food that use gluten meals to balance a full amino acid spread than foods that use lower quality animal meals to achieve the same result. Earthborn is a good, or bad if you will, example here. For many of their formulas ash is out of control. Earthborn would have better products if they used gluten meals to save a buck, or better use top quality animal meals but that's not their game. This is the kind of things DFA completely misses making it less valuable for consumers looking for good foods.


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## MarkM (Apr 4, 2013)

All of that just completely confused me..


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## FBarnes (Feb 17, 2013)

monster'sdad said:


> So next year at Westminster stop by the Doberman area, any breed area for that matter, and explain to the all the dog owners and handlers there using Pro Plan, Eukanuba & Royal Canin how wrong they are and how right you are. Keep in mind those owners have spent well over $100,000 to get to that show over the course of a year or two and would find the advice helpful.
> 
> I will bring the popcorn.


Tell that to the 2006 Best in Show winner, who was a raw fed dog. You need to also mention that dog food companies give away free food AND sponsor these shows. Maybe they have a giant bag of Pro Plan sitting out but who knows what they feed when they aren't at the dog show?

You bring your popcorn. If you think winning a dog show means you have the finest of the finest of dogs, maybe you ought to actually LOOK at some of those winners.


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## monster'sdad (Jul 29, 2012)

FBarnes said:


> Tell that to the 2006 Best in Show winner, who was a raw fed dog. You need to also mention that dog food companies give away free food AND sponsor these shows. Maybe they have a giant bag of Pro Plan sitting out but who knows what they feed when they aren't at the dog show?
> 
> You bring your popcorn. If you think winning a dog show means you have the finest of the finest of dogs, maybe you ought to actually LOOK at some of those winners.


blah blah, yes and those owners spend big 6 figure $$$$ to finish a dog for a show like that and they use Pro Plan because its free, which it isn't....do you how silly that is???

Yes the winning dog at a show or canine sports event is in fact the finest, at least on that day.

When you achieve what some people have achieved over a lifetime, feel free to preach. At this point in time, you have no credible argument.


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## FBarnes (Feb 17, 2013)

monster'sdad said:


> blah blah, yes and those owners spend big 6 figure $$$$ to finish a dog for a show like that and they use Pro Plan because its free, which it isn't....do you how silly that is???
> 
> Yes the winning dog at a show or canine sports event is in fact the finest, at least on that day.
> 
> When you achieve what some people have achieved over a lifetime, feel free to preach. At this point in time, you have no credible argument.


I'm not arguing. I'm stating facts. The winner of the 2006 Westminster dog show was a raw fed dog. That's not an argument, except to point out that you talk out of your rear half the time. I didn't say they FEED Pro Plan because it's free, either. You didn't even read what I said. I said they could have a big bag of it because it was GIVEN to them by the sponsors of the dog show.

Your patronizing, pathetic attacks on people for no reason would hold more water if you actually knew what you were talking about.


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## Sapphire-Light (Aug 8, 2010)

DaViking said:


> To put this in a real life context. I'd much rather buy a food that use gluten meals to balance a full amino acid spread than foods that use lower quality animal meals to achieve the same result. Earthborn is a good, or bad if you will, example here. For many of their formulas ash is out of control. Earthborn would have better products if they used gluten meals to save a buck, or better use top quality animal meals but that's not their game. This is the kind of things DFA completely misses making it less valuable for consumers looking for good foods.


How are the quality of the meat and ash related? sounds interesting.


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## Dobelover (Mar 14, 2013)

I'll supply the popcorn. I bet if some people did some research and up to date education they would be very surprised at what they would learn!
And no where did I say feed a poor quality protein...it should always be a good quality!
You need to go beyond just reading the "label".


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## Herzo (Feb 5, 2011)

FBarnes said:


> Tell that to the 2006 Best in Show winner, who was a raw fed dog. You need to also mention that dog food companies give away free food AND sponsor these shows. Maybe they have a giant bag of Pro Plan sitting out but who knows what they feed when they aren't at the dog show?
> 
> You bring your popcorn. If you think winning a dog show means you have the finest of the finest of dogs, maybe you ought to actually LOOK at some of those winners.


Ah man didn't you just love that bull terrier, I can't remember his call name. Somewhere I have the article in some dog magazine about him. I don't know very many show people but I have one that I hope to get my next basset puppy from and she feeds American National I believe is the name. I had never heard of it before getting on her sight. She was a defendant raw hater until just recently and is now feeding some raw.

I was shocked when I found out so a win win for me 

And monster you are way to smart to say that the dog is the best on that day. I may not have experience at a dog show but I do in sheep, cattle and horse and it can be politics. I know you know this. And I'm not saying that maybe sometimes the one that wins doesn't deserve it but I do think we all know sometimes it doesn't.

Now how corrupt the dog show world is I don't know but I know the horse world is bad and some areas worse than others. But I do know from talking to the people that I have that if you don't have a professional handler it can be very hard to win even if your dog is good.


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## Dobelover (Mar 14, 2013)

Why can’t dogs and cats digest grains and starches?

It’s time for a little biology 101 lesson. Dogs and cats need a lot of good quality protein. The kind of protein and food found in a raw fresh food diet without any chemicals or additives.

So, it’s no surprise one of the main reasons is that dogs and cats can’t easily digest vegetables or grains unless they are partially digested first. As for the reason? They don’t have a long intestinal tract like humans. Since theirs is short, it doesn’t have the ability to digest vegetable matter.

When starches are broken down, they must first be broken into sugars in order to be usable. Cooking of cereal grains is necessary for your animal to properly digest starches. Dogs and cats do not normally produce enzymes in their saliva to actually break-down carbohydrates and starches. Essentially, it’s a no-brainer: dogs and cats can’t digest grains and starches. Their pancreas is forced to produce large amounts of this enzyme to deal with the starches.

Since dogs and cats are not efficient or successful at digesting and assimilating plant material as high quality protein, it’s apparent that feeding your pet as if they were humans is not a wise choice. 
Instead of grains, ponder the possibilities: beef hearts, lamb hearts, chicken, pork, finely ground beef bones, beef liver, egg, kefir, broccoli, celery, spinach, beef kidney, green tripe, etc.

Feeding your dog and cat pure ingredients which are easily digestible is the ultimate way to go for your pet’s overall nutrition.


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## meggels (May 30, 2010)

Herzo said:


> Ah man didn't you just love that bull terrier, I can't remember his call name. Somewhere I have the article in some dog magazine about him. I don't know very many show people but I have one that I hope to get my next basset puppy from and she feeds American National I believe is the name. I had never heard of it before getting on her sight. She was a defendant raw hater until just recently and is now feeding some raw.
> 
> I was shocked when I found out so a win win for me
> 
> ...


Rufus was his name  He passed away last year 

And yes, dog shows can be VERY political. There are many judges that look to see who is holding the lead, and that is a big factor. It's not always like this though. My friend who is a non-professional handler has gotten Awards of Merit at Westminster with frenchies before.


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## Riveroaks (Apr 7, 2013)

DaViking said:


> No. Corn and wheat gluten meal does *not* bulk up the stool, quite the opposite. They are highly highly digestible and are excellent sources of *complementary* amino acids among other things.
> 
> Fillers? Fillers are in the eye of the beholder. In terms of digestion and metabolically very very few dog foods today have "fillers"



You must be kidding!? If you don't know better or can't afford better quality food that's fine but saying that corn is highly digestable and an excellent source of anything for dogs is a joke! It's a cheap useless garbage filler that just comes out the other end all held together by gluten... the superglue of sub par canine kibble. 

Someone had mentioned dog food adviser website... Look up the foods you're interested in on that site it's impartial and provides up to date science and information. It explains all the ingredients in each food in detail and scores each food.
Exactly what you're looking for!


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## MarkM (Apr 4, 2013)

This thread is definitely not starting to help me anymore.. And turned into an argument.. Wow.


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## DaViking (Sep 27, 2011)

Riveroaks said:


> You must be kidding!? If you don't know better or can't afford better quality food that's fine but saying that corn is highly digestable and an excellent source of anything for dogs is a joke! It's a cheap useless garbage filler that just comes out the other end all held together by gluten... the superglue of sub par canine kibble.
> 
> Someone had mentioned dog food adviser website... Look up the foods you're interested in on that site it's impartial and provides up to date science and information. It explains all the ingredients in each food in detail and scores each food.
> Exactly what you're looking for!


Another misguided ingredient cop, sigh. First of all we where talking about protein isolates not corn. But, stick around for a bit and learn what's going on, that's the only advice I can give you. You are too new here to possibly know anything about anyone. DFA, haha, it's a good rolodex with I am sure the best of intentions, nothing more. It's filled with well meant arguments but the lack of experience and knowledge won't lead consumers to find a great food for their pooch. As I said, use it as a directory of foods/brands but be very careful reading the reviews and articles.


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## DaViking (Sep 27, 2011)

Dobelover said:


> Why can’t dogs and cats digest grains and starches?
> 
> It’s time for a little biology 101 lesson. Dogs and cats need a lot of good quality protein. The kind of protein and food found in a raw fresh food diet without any chemicals or additives.
> 
> ...


This is the kind of post that is hard to reply to because it is full of random sentences with some truths, some conditional or partial truths and some nonsense. Just don't pass it on as a biology 101 lesson, it's a C+ at best. I'll leave it there as this is not what MarkM wanted for the thread.


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## DaViking (Sep 27, 2011)

Sapphire-Light said:


> How are the quality of the meat and ash related? sounds interesting.


Not the quality of the original meat but rather the meal. Low quality meals are less digestible and have more ash.


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## MarkM (Apr 4, 2013)

Because of the arguing.. And disagreements.. My head is going in circles. One person says this, the other says that. Now I don't know what to go by.


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## Dobelover (Mar 14, 2013)

In the end you have to go by what fits you and your dogs needs and what you're comfortable with. Just do your own research and do what YOU feel is best 
We all will have different opinions and there will always be disagreements. Just use whatever information YOU find useful.


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## MarkM (Apr 4, 2013)

Dobelover said:


> In the end you have to go by what fits you and your dogs needs and what you're comfortable with. Just do your own research and do what YOU feel is best
> We all will have different opinions and there will always be disagreements. Just use whatever information YOU find useful.


Thanks i will do my best. Maybe I can even update you guys.


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## kathylcsw (Jul 31, 2011)

MarkM said:


> Thanks i will do my best. Maybe I can even update you guys.


Mark just do some research and decide what ingredients you think are important and which you think are not. As you saw in this thread there are many, many different opinions on how to best feed your dog - some shared more nicely than others! Anyway just be sure to pick a food with a named protien meal first. I THINK that everyone here would agree with that. Then feed it to your dog for a month or so and see how your dog is doing. Also keep reading the posts here to get an idea of what people are feeding and recommending. After being here a while you wlll figure out which members' opinions you respect and which you do not.


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## monster'sdad (Jul 29, 2012)

Dobelover said:


> Why can’t dogs and cats digest grains and starches?
> 
> It’s time for a little biology 101 lesson. Dogs and cats need a lot of good quality protein. The kind of protein and food found in a raw fresh food diet without any chemicals or additives.
> 
> ...



You really don't have a clue about what you are talking about but you just keep at it.

Wolves Evolved into Dogs by Feasting on Carbs - David Wagner - The Atlantic Wire

Dobelover give it a rest please.......


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## monster'sdad (Jul 29, 2012)

FBarnes said:


> Tell that to the 2006 Best in Show winner, who was a raw fed dog. You need to also mention that dog food companies give away free food AND sponsor these shows. Maybe they have a giant bag of Pro Plan sitting out but who knows what they feed when they aren't at the dog show?
> 
> You bring your popcorn. If you think winning a dog show means you have the finest of the finest of dogs, maybe you ought to actually LOOK at some of those winners.


Oh yes now I remember, he also ate Bil-Jac, mostly actually.....the Bull Terrier from Holmdel, NJ????


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## FBarnes (Feb 17, 2013)

monster'sdad said:


> Oh yes now I remember, he also ate Bil-Jac, mostly actually.....the Bull Terrier from Holmdel, NJ????


you could also remember that he ate Beneful but that wouldn't make it so.

And of course dogs eat scraps of ANYTHING. Of course they were domesticated because they ate what people threw out. Good Grief. What a breakthrough study that was!!


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## kevin bradley (Aug 9, 2009)

MarkM said:


> Because of the arguing.. And disagreements.. My head is going in circles. One person says this, the other says that. Now I don't know what to go by.


Mark,

Find a company you feel good about and pick a food. I like Tim's, Fromm and Nutrisource as companies. None of them have had recalls or were part of the disaster a few years ago(not sure of the exact year). Note-I don't know what formulas are appropriate for puppies. Some of the others will have to advise there.

As far as finding consensus on grains, corn, whether Dogs should have carbs... good luck there. Its just a battle waiting to happen. You'll never find an answer. Ever.

I just lost my boy to Cancer and I pounded my head against the wall trying to find THE perfect food. It was probably just a waste of time. Find a decent food, know you did your best and enjoy them. 

By the same tolken, I had a stray live to about 18-19 on Grocery store, carb ridden "garbage"...oh, we upgraded her to Pedigree later in her life 

good luck.


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## monster'sdad (Jul 29, 2012)

kevin bradley said:


> Mark,
> 
> Find a company you feel good about and pick a food. I like Tim's, Fromm and Nutrisource as companies. None of them have had recalls or were part of the disaster a few years ago(not sure of the exact year). Note-I don't know what formulas are appropriate for puppies. Some of the others will have to advise there.
> 
> ...


Mark, precisely, if you look through this thread you will see the trouble makers that: 1) Don't know what they are talking about and 2) Want to spend your money. They come over from the raw food section and act like they are Dr. David Kronfeld, PHD or something. 

Once their false facts are pointed out they run. 

If anyone goes on a rant about wolves, protein levels and salivary enzymes you know they are blowing smoke. The fact they dismiss that the finest dogs in the world in every aspect of canine competition eat rather ordinary dry foods should be enough to quite them down. But, noooo.

You don't have to spend much more than say a $1.0lb for dog food, and the boogie man ingredients you see people worrying about on here are in many cases the better ingredients.


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## Dobelover (Mar 14, 2013)

I used to feed kibble for a very long time...Do I feel that raw is better? Yes. I have complete control of what my dog eats, I prefer that. But yes, there are excellent dry foods out there, I have used them. I just prefer to have complete control of where my food comes from. So, would I push for raw absolutely. And no, I'm not out to spend anyone's money. That's just an absurd statement. But my raw is less expensive than the kibble I was feedings that's for sure.


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## kevin bradley (Aug 9, 2009)

I want to be clear, I'm not slamming raw feeders--I stay WAY clear of those discussions. Some of my better friends on the forum feed raw and the last thing I want to do is insult them. They are doing what they feel is best for their Dogs. I honestly don't KNOW if its better. I mean that very literally. I just don't know.

The challenge with the discussions is that almost all of the proof of ANY aspect of Dog food is anecdotal. You are almost NEVER going to get a conclusive answer on anything. You just have to do what you feel is right.

Funny... I recall a friend who got me into feeding better foods telling me... "And your Vet bills will go WAY down when you are feeding better foods." I knew this sounded crazy when I heard him say it but I was in the whirlwind of doing something better for my Dogs so I ran with it. "YEAH, My Dog will be the healthiest Dog on the planet!"......................
So one of the FIRST foods I ever fed was Canidae. This was probably 4 years ago or so. I think it was shortly after their formula change that caused the big stir. My little Beagle got SO sick the day I started her on Canidae... vomitting, lethargy... completely listless. I had to take her on an emergency visit to the Vet. An overnight IV and $500 later, she was ok. I can't prove it was the food but that was the ONLY variable I could ever think of. Then, of course... Harry and his Cancer and I don't even want to say how much I spent just in a futile wish and a prayer.

I'm not slamming good foods. Even after the above, I still feel that common sense says to feed better foods from companies I trust. 

But the be all/end all to perfect health? Not even close.


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## riddick4811 (Nov 2, 2011)

I have always heard about feeding raw or xxx kibble and your vet bills will be less. But very few if any of my vet bills have to do with food. Broken toes? I highly doubt being fed a certain food would have prevented that. Scratched cornea, again not food related. My dogs teeth are fine, never had but one dog in my entire life get a dental and he was 9 yrs old when I got him and they were putting him under for stitches and drain tube after getting into a fight and I figured they could go ahead and clean his teeth. 

Never taken a dog to the vet for skin issues or ear issues b/c if I get a foster with them, I treat them myself and they normally clear up within a few weeks if that. Rocky had a hematoma, but again I doubt diet had anything to do with it. 

Only vet bill I blame on food is when Zeus bloated and he bloated on raw so go figure!


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## MarkM (Apr 4, 2013)

Thank you all for your opinions and advise!


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## FBarnes (Feb 17, 2013)

monster'sdad said:


> Mark, precisely, if you look through this thread you will see the trouble makers that: 1) Don't know what they are talking about and 2) Want to spend your money. They come over from the raw food section and act like they are Dr. David Kronfeld, PHD or something.
> 
> Once their false facts are pointed out they run.
> 
> ...


Nope, just to point out when you say something that's totally nuts like dog show winners feed Iam's and Pro Plan without mentioning that those companies sponsor the shows and give out free dog food. Or so conveniently forgot that the 2006 winner didn't eat kibble. Or that MSDS are some kind of standard. Etc etc etc. Or how when you are proven wrong you either pop up somewhere else with some other cockamamie stuff or start throwing out personal attacks, as you are doing now.

I am afraid people believe you because you state things as facts that are either not true, half true, or obviously true, like wolves were domesticated by eating people's garbage as proof of anything. If dogs are evolved from wolves, as they are, they got here somehow. Some government probably wasted alot of money on that study. What it proves as far as how dogs are built to eat is neither relevant nor pertinent to that paragraph. And you don't even link to the study nor a reference to the study, just a paragraph in a newspaper which makes it totally irrelevant to anything.

I personally don't care what people feed their dogs. I only care that people voice their opinions as opinions and not as fact unless they have something to back it up.


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## FBarnes (Feb 17, 2013)

And Kevin it might not have been your imagination about the Canidae. There are plenty of similar complaints on Consumer Affairs. 402 Complaints and Reviews about Canidae Pet Foods
I fed one of my dogs chicken based food for a long time, switching brands etc. and never associated the ear infections nor the constantly licking hot spots with the cooked chicken protein in all the foods I was buying. Other dogs I'm sure did fine on the same food but mine had allergies. So you never know.


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## DaViking (Sep 27, 2011)

FBarnes said:


> Nope, just to point out when you say something that's totally nuts like dog show winners feed Iam's and Pro Plan without mentioning that those companies sponsor the shows and give out free dog food. Or so conveniently forgot that the 2006 winner didn't eat kibble. Or that MSDS are some kind of standard. Etc etc etc. Or how when you are proven wrong you either pop up somewhere else with some other cockamamie stuff or start throwing out personal attacks, as you are doing now.
> 
> I am afraid people believe you because you state things as facts that are either not true, half true, or obviously true, like wolves were domesticated by eating people's garbage as proof of anything. If dogs are evolved from wolves, as they are, they got here somehow. Some government probably wasted alot of money on that study. What it proves as far as how dogs are built to eat is neither relevant nor pertinent to that paragraph. And you don't even link to the study nor a reference to the study, just a paragraph in a newspaper which makes it totally irrelevant to anything.
> 
> I personally don't care what people feed their dogs. I only care that people voice their opinions as opinions and not as fact unless they have something to back it up.


You care more than you say. Monster is, oops sorry was, just a balance to a lot of outrageous "facts", advice and statements found elsewhere here, and that have nothing to do with this versus that, absolutely nothing. The trick is to just let it go and realize that most are actually intelligent human beings that don't need the p**s match back and forth to figure out what they want to go with. In this respect there are a lot of "Monster's" here. Geez, spend the time on perfecting your dogs diet and well-being instead of the endless bickering.


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## MarkM (Apr 4, 2013)

Well I figured I would give you an update.. My wife and I decided to switch to TOTW. It's been 2 days so far. We are slowly introducing our dogs into the food. Oh by the way, my wife and I realized our rott mix itched a lot on our previous food (diamond naturals LBP).. We hope this golf stops this as we have heard grains can make dogs itch badly.


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