# Breeding for Longevity



## SpooOwner (Oct 1, 2010)

Did anyone else see this video?






I'm intrigued by the breeding philosophy. It struck me as a refreshing approach to breeding for the health of the dogs, but as I am not a breeder, I can't critique it.


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## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

If all breeders did that and cared that much, we would never have an overpopulation of dogs in this country. Too bad the vet says she can't find many of them to interview.

I like the term - species appropriate diet.

i also think this fellow is real validation for the diet - not adopting to people who won't feed raw? Just amazing. Really convinces me I am doing the right thing.


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## RaisingWolves (Mar 19, 2011)

I would love to find a holistic breeder! How do you find a breeder like this?


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## SpooOwner (Oct 1, 2010)

RaisingWolves said:


> I would love to find a holistic breeder! How do you find a breeder like this?


I know! I could have slapped my head when I saw this - it's so obvious and yet I've never heard of a breeder selecting for longevity. It makes so much sense!


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## RaisingWolves (Mar 19, 2011)

There are very few breeds that do not have a long list of health problems. I was surprised to see the African Boerboel has little to no health issues. I actually spent some time reading about this breed yesterday. They haven't been a breed for very long so they do not have the health issues of old breeds with narrow gene pools. 
Too bad the breed is too dominant for me. It wouldn't be a problem for my husband, but I don't think I could handle a dominant breed.
I think beagles are healthy too, but the barking would drive me insane!!!


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## CavePaws (Jan 25, 2011)

What an awesome breeder. He deserves some kind of award. You can tell he cares so much about those dogs. 

Newfoundlands are actually very sweet dogs, some of them can be "dominant" but it's probably mistaken a lot for a natural instinct to protect. I think they came from mastiff lineage, not sure I'd have to go look it up, but I believe that would play a pretty large role in their will to protect. If I wanted a giant breed I would definitely want to get a dog from Dr. Bergin!

Thanks for sharing!


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## eternalstudent (Jul 22, 2010)

He is one of the people that you would wish were the norm. 

The primary thing in any breeding should be health!!, not head size (I want a rotti with a bulls head ), not weight, not looks. If we want nice dogs that can last somewhere close to there biological maximum (cell life span I think in is called) then breeders have to get on board and breed for the right reasons.

Maybe one day I will find a breeder like that


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## 1605 (May 27, 2009)

SpooOwner said:


> Did anyone else see this video?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Very interesting interview. :thumb:


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## KlaMarie (Dec 30, 2010)

eternalstudent said:


> He is one of the people that you would wish were the norm.
> 
> The primary thing in any breeding should be health!!, not head size (I want a rotti with a bulls head ), not weight, not looks. If we want nice dogs that can last somewhere close to there biological maximum (cell life span I think in is called) then breeders have to get on board and breed for the right reasons.
> 
> Maybe one day I will find a breeder like that


I totally agree. My family had GSDs growing up, and almost all of them had to be put down at what I considered an early age due to health problems. Then we rescued a mix, Beauty, and she is still going strong (with some minor hip problems) at almost 13. Even my mom's purebred little dogs, who you assume are supposed to live longer, are showing serious health problems at 9 and 10 yrs old. 

All of this contributed to when I was looking at breeders, the absolute #1 priority would have to be health. I looked for a breeder who was doing everything they could to weed out genetic problems, and who was also providing correct nutrition and mental stimulation for their dogs.
Even now, picking a pup out of a litter of 11... of course I have color preferences, but I want a dog who is #1 healthy, and #2 has a temperament that will fit my life. Everything else comes after that.


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## KittyKat (Feb 11, 2011)

Whippets are a pretty healthy breed. Thats partly why I got one. They can however get heart murmurs, some of which are genetic, and eye issues (which are genetic). Both of which can be tested for. Whippets can also carry a trait for having anxiety... I've run into a few at one dog show already that were whining away. 

My breeder was the one that mentioned raw to me. She asked if I ever gave them chicken wings and I said "no". She said she gave them chicken wings on the weekends. So I started to look into it.... and then the owner of one of my dogs sisters mentioned she fed raw... and now Piper is on raw.

Can you check and see when the other dogs in their lineage died? I know I have checked back for my pups lineage and I can only see a couple of reported deaths (15 & 16 years, which is the norm) and some don't have date of birth listed and whatnot... so you can't really see longevity if you can only look so far back. All i can tell is her sire was from poland and has a really varied background and the damn, being Canadian has a background of US/Canadian dogs (and I did find one dog that appeared twice in her damns history =/).


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## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

I attribute alot of my dog's health problems to poor breeding. I haven't had many purebred dogs, and I've spent more $$ on these two in the last year than I did on my last dog in the entire 17 years he was alive. Granted, I raised neither from a puppy and both have suffered both abuse and neglect. But what they have is not restricted to poorly cared-for dogs.

I am hoping feeding raw will help - it's too late for my dachshund because she has mitral valve disease (prominent in the breed) and has already lost most of her teeth (also common in all small dogs). There's no reversing either of those. BUT she doesn't have spinal issues which is terrrible for a dog, and she doesn't have Cushing's either. So maybe we can prevent those things and keep her fairly healthy for as long as we can. She also has some stiffness and arthritis - don't know if this food will help that or not. Probably not.

My Doberman is only 7 and so far only has low thyroid and a small afibrillation in his heart (Dobermans also tend to drop dead from cardiac arrest). Maybe I can keep him healthy to his lifespan or beyond, if I start feeding him raw now.

The only other "purebred" dog I had was a Dalmation I got at a garage sale for $20 because I just couldn't stand leaving him in a box in the heat. He fell over dead at 3 years old - presumable heart attack.

Mutts just have such a deep gene pool - I love my two purebreds, but honestly you have to be rich to keep treating, testing, going through the same problems over and over, it seems. My Doberman just wore a 24 heart monitor that cost $540 - you should never have to do that for a youngish dog. I was told I need to keep repeating that test every 6 months, for his lifetime.


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## DaneMama (Jun 27, 2008)

I'm actually doing a TON of research on holistic and natural dog breeding practices and getting set up for it in the future. Health, temperament and genetic diversity are my goals, with looks and conformation last. It will be an exclusively Raw fed breeding program with very limited vaccinations and traditional medicine. I still have lots more to learn and read, but it is a goal for me someday!


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## luvMyBRT (Mar 8, 2010)

The only thing I wish this Newfie breeder would have mentioned was how important temperament is as well. I don't think he mentions it at all....does he?

I know with BRTs temperament is the number one thing I look for, then health. A BRT with a bad temperament is a law suit/accident waiting to happen, especially with how big and dominant they can be.


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## Boxers&Pom's Mom (Jan 17, 2011)

I show it to my daughter that own a Newfoundland and did a big homework about breeder before buying it and she said that how they breed an allergic dog? She said that his partner is a great breeder, but the best breeder in in Canada. I don't know much.


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## RaisingWolves (Mar 19, 2011)

Boxers&Pom's Mom said:


> I show it to my daughter that own a Newfoundland and did a big homework about breeder before buying it and she said that how they breed an allergic dog?


The dog was fed an innappropriate diet. Did she hear him say he had a different dog when they stopped feeding kibble and switched to a species appropriate diet?


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## SpooOwner (Oct 1, 2010)

I wish there was a poodle breeder who was this focused on health. (Yes, I dream of being such a breeder.)

I have heard that dogs with a COI < 2% live, on average, 2 years longer than dogs with higher COI. I look at my dog's background and shudder.

What do y'all think about temperament testing and breeders' choosing the puppies for the prospective owners? I have mixed feelings - I hear that temperament testing doesn't really work, and it seems like a knowledgeable owner could choose a puppy better than a breeder (though the breeder can choose better than an unknowledgeable owner, who may simply choose the one who jumps into his/her lap).


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## CorgiPaws (Mar 31, 2009)

RaisingWolves said:


> They haven't been a breed for very long so they do not have the health issues of old breeds with narrow gene pools.


I think that the show world contributes more to this problem than absolutely anything. I think a LOT of breeders start breeding for the love of their breed, and the more they get enveloped in the show world, the ore it becomes about raking in the titles and creating that perfect LOOKING dog to put in the ring. I think the original vision and passion gets twisted in the competition all too often. That's where inbreeding comes into play. Or, as breeders will call it "line breeding." (they are the same thing- breeding related dogs) They use it to "lock in" desirable traits, and really what they are doing is a total injustice to their breed by limiting the gene pool to a devastating extent. It's a shame, a true shame. 
Now, I'm NOT saying that this is the case for every breeder that shows their dogs. That's not the case. I know this. I understand this. BUT, the amount of time I've spent in the show crowd, and the more show breeders I talk to, the more put off I am to the show world. 



eternalstudent said:


> The primary thing in any breeding should be health!!, not head size (I want a rotti with a bulls head ), not weight, not looks. If we want nice dogs that can last somewhere close to there biological maximum (cell life span I think in is called) then breeders have to get on board and breed for the right reasons.
> 
> Maybe one day I will find a breeder like that


They are out there. You have to look a bit harder. Finding a show breeder is easy peasy. The thing is- breeders like this generally aren't in the show ring and tend to be shunned by the big names because their dogs may have conformation flaws. I know one of my dog's breeders was flamed for letting show potential dogs go to pet homes. How silly is that?!



DaneMama said:


> I'm actually doing a TON of research on holistic and natural dog breeding practices and getting set up for it in the future. Health, temperament and genetic diversity are my goals, with looks and conformation last. It will be an exclusively Raw fed breeding program with very limited vaccinations and traditional medicine. I still have lots more to learn and read, but it is a goal for me someday!


Oh? You don't say! Sounds like a very interesting plan. LOL. 



SpooOwner said:


> What do y'all think about temperament testing and breeders' choosing the puppies for the prospective owners? I have mixed feelings - I hear that temperament testing doesn't really work, and it seems like a knowledgeable owner could choose a puppy better than a breeder (though the breeder can choose better than an unknowledgeable owner, who may simply choose the one who jumps into his/her lap).


I think that any breeder that includes dogs with poor temperaments in their program has a lot to be ashamed of- no matter how beautiful they are, or what color puppies they produce.
As for temprament testing the pups and hand picking homes for them... I kind of have mixed feelings too. The way Annie's breeder did it, is she let families pick BUT if she really felt it was simply the wrong match, she reserved the right to refuse the sale. I don't think it's my place to judge a breeder on this particular issue. The way I see it, is those pups belong to that breeder, and it is that breeder's right and responsibility to do whatever they feel is best. Is it fool proof? No, it's not. But at the same time, if that's what makes them more comfortable then so be it.


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## RaisingWolves (Mar 19, 2011)

PuppyPaws said:


> I think that the show world contributes more to this problem than absolutely anything. I think a LOT of breeders start breeding for the love of their breed, and the more they get enveloped in the show world, the ore it becomes about raking in the titles and creating that perfect LOOKING dog to put in the ring. I think the original vision and passion gets twisted in the competition all too often. That's where inbreeding comes into play. Or, as breeders will call it "line breeding." (they are the same thing- breeding related dogs) They use it to "lock in" desirable traits, and really what they are doing is a total injustice to their breed by limiting the gene pool to a devastating extent. It's a shame, a true shame.
> Now, I'm NOT saying that this is the case for every breeder that shows their dogs. That's not the case. I know this. I understand this. BUT, the amount of time I've spent in the show crowd, and the more show breeders I talk to, the more put off I am to the show world.


I spent some time reading about the African Boerboel yesterday after a member mentioned their breeder told them they have had no health issues in over 10 years. 

Boerboel, OVK Boerboels USA

Do you know of any other breed that does this?


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## 1605 (May 27, 2009)

PuppyPaws said:


> I think that the show world contributes more to this problem than absolutely anything. I think a LOT of breeders start breeding for the love of their breed, and the more they get enveloped in the show world, the ore it becomes about raking in the titles and creating that perfect LOOKING dog to put in the ring. I think the original vision and passion gets twisted in the competition all too often. That's where inbreeding comes into play. Or, as breeders will call it "line breeding." (they are the same thing- breeding related dogs) They use it to "lock in" desirable traits, and really what they are doing is a total injustice to their breed by limiting the gene pool to a devastating extent. It's a shame, a true shame.
> Now, I'm NOT saying that this is the case for every breeder that shows their dogs. That's not the case. I know this. I understand this. BUT, the amount of time I've spent in the show crowd, and the more show breeders I talk to, the more put off I am to the show world.


Having a hunting breed I think you can really see this where the field dogs look significantly different from the conformation lines. Our dog is very much within "breed standard" but would be considered too small for the show ring as his breeder was more interested in getting a field champion rather than a show champion. 

That being said, his sire is a dual champion: field & conformation while his dam is pure field. 

The show hunting dogs? They look pretty, but they're dumb as bricks... hwell:

Thankfully, they haven't messed with them very much and there are few, if any, genetic problems.


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## KlaMarie (Dec 30, 2010)

SpooOwner said:


> What do y'all think about temperament testing and breeders' choosing the puppies for the prospective owners? I have mixed feelings - I hear that temperament testing doesn't really work, and it seems like a knowledgeable owner could choose a puppy better than a breeder (though the breeder can choose better than an unknowledgeable owner, who may simply choose the one who jumps into his/her lap).


My breeder does this. But she doesn't match people and pups based soley on official evals. She spends 8-9 weeks, 24hours a day with the pups and she knows more about GSDs and the right temperament for the right job than I ever will. She knows what protection sport prospects act like at 8 weeks, and she knows what OB and agility prospects act like. 

But it's not not always that she picks one specific pup for a person. She picked out 2 that had temperaments that matched what I was looking for. Then she described each one and we will come to a decision together about whcih one is best for me. 

Out of 6 females, she had 3 Schutzhund prospects and 3 OB/agility/etc prospects. So you have wiggle room in terms of the specific pup you get, but she's not going to let someone pick a pup suited for protection sports when all they want is an active family companion.

Once I get more experience in the dog sport world, know more about what I'm doing  , for the next dog, I'll be more prepared to do evals on the puppy myself and make a decision based on my own knowledge (plus the breeder's input).


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## Boxers&Pom's Mom (Jan 17, 2011)

RaisingWolves said:


> The dog was fed an innappropriate diet. Did she hear him say he had a different dog when they stopped feeding kibble and switched to a species appropriate diet?


If the dog get Allergies for been feed kibbles, even that it stop after feeding her raw, still in my book is an Allergic Dog, specially in this Society. What guarantee you have that the new puppy's owners are not going to feed Kibbles to their puppy and going to end with another Allergic Dog?


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## Boxers&Pom's Mom (Jan 17, 2011)

When I was looking to add a new Ragdoll cat to my crew, I called my breeder and explained to her how I want my new cat's temperament to be.
She choose the right cat for me. It is amazing how good she choose him for me.


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## RaisingWolves (Mar 19, 2011)

Boxers&Pom's Mom said:


> If the dog get Allergies for been feed kibbles, even that it stop after feeding her raw, still in my book is an Allergic Dog, specially in this Society. What guarantee you have that the new puppy's owners are not going to feed Kibbles to their puppy and going to end with another Allergic Dog?



I think it is reasonable to expect the healthiest dog to have allergy problems when fed an inappropriate diet. I love RawFedDogs signature line and I believe it to be 100% truth....
"Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
Dr. Tom Lonsdale

The guarantee the new puppy owner will not have the same problem is simple....screen the home your pup goes to, educate them how to feed a species appropriate diet. If you listened to the breeder in the interview, he said he would not place his pups in a home that was not willing to feed a raw diet.


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