# Having to give commands multiple times



## emirae1091 (Sep 16, 2013)

I'm sure it's something I've done, and most likely not my dog's fault! But, I am getting a little frustrated because I don't know what my response should be.

Recently, when I give her a command, like to go jump up on my bed for bed time, she'll walk over to the bed, and sit next to it, and look at me with her ears perked up. It's like she's not sure what I mean? Or wants to double check that she's doing the right thing? It's getting annoying to have to give a basic command I know she knows more than one time. She does the same thing sometimes when I tell her to come. She'll sit up/look at me, so she's obviously paying attention, but I have to call her again to get her to actually move. I'm pretty sure I've made it worse by repeating the command, but I don't know what else to do when she's sitting there looking at me like she's not sure I mean it.

What can I do to fix this, so I only have to give the command once, like we used to? Like I said, I'm getting frustrated because she's doing it with simple things that I know she knows! I've tried not to react negatively, because she's not doing anything wrong, exactly.

I've started introducing the clicker, but I don't thing it's totally confirmed as a reward without a treat quite yet. And a remote collar that I use the tone only feature to call her to me from far away at the riding stable. She does come reliably when it beeps, but not always when I call with my voice.

TIA!


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## NutroGeoff (May 15, 2013)

I would say a good way to help that would be to pour positive praise over her when she does actually do what you want, even if it is the second or third time, just so she knows "ok that is what I'm supposed to do." Just keep reinforcing the good behaviors when they happen and she will be more likely to pick up the good habits again quickly. Dogs love to please us and when they see that they have they are more likely to do that thing again.


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## lauren43 (Feb 6, 2011)

A clicker is not a reward without a treat. The clicker marks the behavior you want. Basically it says "Yes that right there is correct, your treat is on the way." In order to develop this relationship between the clicker and the reward, you must reward every time you click, even if you clicked in the wrong place.

As for repeating commands, well I think there is a stigma alone around the word command. A command is "do what I say when I say it, or else". Which is why in training I use the word cue. Chances are, no matter how many times you have rehearsed a behavior, your dog does not actually know the cue...or something has changed. What you are looking for is stimulus control. There are 4 parts to stimulus control. (1) The dog responds to the cue immediately and correctly. (2) The dog responds to the cue in any and all environments (outside, inside, in the bathroom, at your neighbors house). (3) Your dog does not offer some other behavior in response to the cue (ie you say "sit" and your dog lays down). (4) Your dog does not offer the behavior in the absence of a cue (ie when you are preparing treats, or before the cue has been given)...

Also your demeanor alone may have changed now that you are frustrated with her. Perhaps you are prepared for her to fail and your tone has changed. Or the environment has changed. Even though dogs don't have great eye sight, they know their environment. Something as simple as moving the furniture around in a room can change the dogs perception of the cue, for a dog (or any animal really) every new environment changes the meaning of the cue. Or your dog never really knew the cue to begin with. Each cue should be only one signal, you say "sit", or you put your hand up for stay...no extraneous signals. 

For example, some people will say sit and very slightly lean forward, the dog may perceive the body movement as the cue rather than the word. I can tell you when my dog and I were training for my KPA workshop, I had the cue jump. He could do it verbally, I say "jump". Or he could do it in response to a body cue, I physically jump...After I changed the behavior to a body cue, I would jump and my treat bag would be open, so all my treats would fly everywhere. Because of this, I got into the habit of hitting my treat bag closed before I jumped every single time. Guess what, by the time we showed the behavior to the class, my dog knew that hitting my bag meant it was time to jump.

Just remember they are highly perceptive. They watch your every move, and listen to your voice.

With repeating cues. Stop doing it. We all fall into patterns, I do it all the time. If she doesn't respond the first time. Walk away. Do something different. Get her excited. Play with her. Then give her an easy cue, most dogs know "sit" the best. Then try again. Don't keep repeating the cue.


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## Olive (Nov 2, 2013)

Hi Tia, 

First, don't let yourself get impatient. It's easy to to want and expect your dog to understand, but the truth is it does sound like she's a bit confused. I would start all over as if you didn't ever teach her with training on this issue/trick, so that there is no confusion in her mind. It's also important to be sure your voice is in command mode. In case it's not, ask yourself if you sound like your'e cooing her or asking a question in a sweet voice. Commands should sound strong and authoritative. Corrections-almost like an authoritative growl (it's not mean, it's their language), and, of course, when commands or corrections are obeyed comes the praise, love, and cooing. Praise is the only time a voice should be full of love and affection until your dog is completely trained and submissive to you. Then, there's a little more flexibility once total understanding takes place between you two on most subjects at least;-)


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## lauren43 (Feb 6, 2011)

Olive said:


> Hi Tia,
> 
> First, don't let yourself get impatient. It's easy to to want and expect your dog to understand, but the truth is it does sound like she's a bit confused. I would start all over as if you didn't ever teach her with training on this issue/trick, so that there is no confusion in her mind. It's also important to be sure your voice is in command mode. In case it's not, ask yourself if you sound like your'e cooing her or asking a question in a sweet voice. Commands should sound strong and authoritative. Corrections-almost like an authoritative growl (it's not mean, it's their language), and, of course, when commands or corrections are obeyed comes the praise, love, and cooing. Praise is the only time a voice should be full of love and affection until your dog is completely trained and submissive to you. Then, there's a little more flexibility once total understanding takes place between you two on most subjects at least;-)



Would you try commanding a dolphin? What about a horse or an elephant? I don't understand when in our culture it became ok or even the accepted rational that we need to control and command our companion animals. You do not need an authoritative voice to get the message to your dog, in fact you could train them without using your voice at all.


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## Olive (Nov 2, 2013)

*Please Understand...*

Hi Lauren43, I understand your feelings and would have agreed with you just a few months ago. For years, I owned an extremely sweet German Shepherd mix that wanted nothing other than to please. One would never have to use any type of 'command' voice with him. All one had to do was teach him a command or trick. He would learn within seconds (very smart) and comply with no issue at all whatsoever. A lovely creature to say the least. 

Now, I have Molly. She is part beagle, part lab, and part pit bull. She has the stubborn/independent behavior often seen in Beagles and lab puppies and the hyper activity often seen in pit bulls. She has also been diagnosed by two trainers and the doggie daycare as being not only 'alpha' but extremely alpha. She will not obey without firm, serious tone and instruction. She also loves to talk back (bark in protest and growl) when simply asked to sit or other normal request. She has bit someone so far who tried to instruct her (instruct her in a very sweet way at that) breaking skin and causing for bleeding that could almost not be stopped. My bathroom was covered in human blood in a way that I never could have imagined. Well, at least not from a dog bite.

This type of training has been recommended by three different specialist who, by the way, LOVE dogs. The Humane Society recommended that she be put down. I won't allow it just yet. I do not want to end her young life. I want to give her a chance! She is young and needs firm instruction! This does not involve anything physical, except to pull her leash to redirect her thoughts (like Cesar Milan and other trainers recommend). The 'command or correct' tone I spoke of is also not a MEAN thing. We love Molly! It's simply a serious or very serious tone rather than a cooing or loving tone, which she gets plenty of when she actually does what we ask of her. We take every opportunity to love her up, so that she knows what it is to be loved and adored. 

Again, as the trainer says 'we are saving her life'. Please hold off on judgment, as we love Molly and hold no grudge in our tone even during the moments of command and correction. I think you might have imagined something a bit different. I've seen people be mean and nasty to dogs, and I don't like it either. That's why I reminded the original poster, Tia, to not let herself become impatient. It's easy to do, but is not an energy that helps the dog learn or feel good about themselves and I know that. 

I appreciate your concern for animals, in any case. I can assure you though that Molly is getting exactly what she needs to live and be able to live out her life and become a lovely creature like my Claude, instead of being 'put down' as recommended. 

Kindly, 

Olive
p.s. I got my info on command, correct, praise from the book "good owners/great dogs". The man who wrote it loves dogs and his training techniques are extremely humane and dog oriented/dog loving.


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## StdPooDad (Mar 16, 2012)

As I recall (it's been a long time since I've read that book), Brian Kilcommons also recommends the use the Woodhouse "training" collar. 
Are you suggesting that it be taken as gospel just because it's from a 20 year old book?

Lauren43, I would like see specific recommendations, not just "don't do that" type of thing.



Olive said:


> Hi Lauren43,
> 
> Olive
> p.s. I got my info on command, correct, praise from the book "good owners/great dogs". The man who wrote it loves dogs and his training techniques are extremely humane and dog oriented/dog loving.


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## Olive (Nov 2, 2013)

*Oh no...*



StdPooDad said:


> As I recall (it's been a long time since I've read that book), Brian Kilcommons also recommends the use the Woodhouse "training" collar.
> Are you suggesting that it be taken as gospel just because it's from a 20 year old book?
> 
> Lauren43, I would like see specific recommendations, not just "don't do that" type of thing.


Hi StdPooDad, Good Morning,

No, I would not recommend anything be taken as gospel. It just works very well on my dog with behavioral issues, so I would imagine it would work well on dogs without them. Tia's dog may be a very well behaved dog with need for clear instruction. I do feel Kilcommon's way of instructing dogs is clear and helps both the owner and dog. It's simply worked for me, so I would recommend it as something to try. And, yes, it is an older book but, again, I feel it's pretty good if not very good overall (old or not). 

It does seem that people are pretty passionate about training methods. I like whatever works that's humane and healthy for both owner and dog and certainly don't take anything as gospel.


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## Celt (Dec 27, 2010)

I sometimes think that the only "corrective" dog trainers most have ever seen are the dimwits or the brutals neither of whom has the slightest idea of how to use this method correctly. it is a fact that this method can be easily misused. But having trained both ways I'm more likely to reccommend the positive only way, simple because a person is less likely to screw up and if they do screw up it's not damaging. That being said I've known several dogs that find positive only training to be a joke or simply ineffective due to their personality. My Scotty is an example of making positive only into a joke. Unless a treats is available (not neccessarily in hand or even immediatley accessible), he sees no reason to interrupt what he's doing to perform a command and if not "paid" in a timely manner or in suffiecent and appropriate treats will quit working. I lmao at a trainer who thought she could make it work (because I had obviously messed up) when she "washed her hands" of him. An example I'll use (mostly as it works for most people) is the jumping up for attention. Ignoring this behavior escalates to him grabbing on to and yanking on clothes, ignore=nipping, "yelping"/saying ouch=harder biting, leaving the room/kenneling him=his winning and the behavior continued. Using corrective training which involve a firm command of stop it and a leash correction (do not attempt without good exeperience help) had him ending this behavior in 2 weeks. He's still thrilled to see people and does a wiggling, dancing (while standing) and spinning greeting but there's no no jumping on people. I prefer people to use positive only training but understand that sometimes it doesn't work for a few dogs.

Training is a lot like feeding in that not all dogs do well on the same thing. The majority of dogs eat and thrive on kibble but for some kibble is detrimental to their health. An owner must determine what is best for their dog based on their knowledge and experiences.


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## lauren43 (Feb 6, 2011)

StdPooDad said:


> As I recall (it's been a long time since I've read that book), Brian Kilcommons also recommends the use the Woodhouse "training" collar.
> Are you suggesting that it be taken as gospel just because it's from a 20 year old book?
> 
> Lauren43, I would like see specific recommendations, not just "don't do that" type of thing.


You know I have tons of suggestions. But 98% of the time I'll write a book length response and it will fall on deaf ears.


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## lauren43 (Feb 6, 2011)

Celt said:


> I sometimes think that the only "corrective" dog trainers most have ever seen are the dimwits or the brutals neither of whom has the slightest idea of how to use this method correctly. it is a fact that this method can be easily misused. But having trained both ways I'm more likely to reccommend the positive only way, simple because a person is less likely to screw up and if they do screw up it's not damaging. That being said I've known several dogs that find positive only training to be a joke or simply ineffective due to their personality. My Scotty is an example of making positive only into a joke. Unless a treats is available (not neccessarily in hand or even immediatley accessible), he sees no reason to interrupt what he's doing to perform a command and if not "paid" in a timely manner or in suffiecent and appropriate treats will quit working. I lmao at a trainer who thought she could make it work (because I had obviously messed up) when she "washed her hands" of him. An example I'll use (mostly as it works for most people) is the jumping up for attention. Ignoring this behavior escalates to him grabbing on to and yanking on clothes, ignore=nipping, "yelping"/saying ouch=harder biting, leaving the room/kenneling him=his winning and the behavior continued. Using corrective training which involve a firm command of stop it and a leash correction (do not attempt without good exeperience help) had him ending this behavior in 2 weeks. He's still thrilled to see people and does a wiggling, dancing (while standing) and spinning greeting but there's no no jumping on people. I prefer people to use positive only training but understand that sometimes it doesn't work for a few dogs.
> 
> Training is a lot like feeding in that not all dogs do well on the same thing. The majority of dogs eat and thrive on kibble but for some kibble is detrimental to their health. An owner must determine what is best for their dog based on their knowledge and experiences.


This is an issue with many many dogs. It's not that the trainer gave you bad info or that positive training didn't or wouldn't work in this case...it was that the alternative was faster. And lucky for you, you have a very happy go lucky dog. For some dogs a leash yank every time they greet a strange could change their associations with people...people=pain, so they avoid people or they start barking at people to get them to go away before the pain is inflicted.

Yes many different methods work but be sure to know all the repercussions of each method...


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## [email protected] (Oct 14, 2013)

The thing with repeating commands is that the dogs can actually think the full command is "sit. sit. sit!" So, instead of sitting on the first sit, they wait until we say it two or three times, since we've accidentally trained them to do this. You can help your dog by physically guiding the dog to do what you want after the first command and then really exaggerating the praise. For example, if you give the command for the dog to jump up onto the bed and she walks over to you but doesn't jump up, just help her up and then give her lots of praise. Keep practicing and she'll catch on in no time.

I can't remember if you said you're using any type of hand signals? Most dogs actually learn easier when we use hand signals versus verbal commands. Humans tend to prefer verbal commands, but whenever you can use both it will only help your dog. Not sure if you're doing that already.


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## Olive (Nov 2, 2013)

Hi Celt, Yes! Thank you. 

I naturally tried the super positive training on my new dog, Molly, as our older dog, Claude, was so easy to train that way. He wants nothing more than to absolutely please his humans. Molly is so different in personality though. The trainers actually said that I was making her behavior worse using the ever popular positive training. The two trainers had different training philosophies too, yet both noticed she is alpha and was taking my super positive and loving training (that worked so well with Claude) as weakness. She's just different and needs very clear, strong instruction. I think she's going to be a very good girl with time though...

Thanks for chiming in-it's easy to feel picked on in reference to this type of stuff.


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## Celt (Dec 27, 2010)

lauren43 said:


> This is an issue with many many dogs. It's not that the trainer gave you bad info or that positive training didn't or wouldn't work in this case...it was that the alternative was faster. And lucky for you, you have a very happy go lucky dog. For some dogs a leash yank every time they greet a strange could change their associations with people...people=pain, so they avoid people or they start barking at people to get them to go away before the pain is inflicted.
> 
> Yes many different methods work but be sure to know all the repercussions of each method...


I agree that you have to know all the repercussions and the proper way to use the method. The speed that the corrective method used was a plus but it wasn't like we just gave the positive way a short time. Iggies are known to be soft breed, so we used the positive only method (worked great on our first and is doing the same with our newest). But after almost a year of his behavior, we decided to go the other way.


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## lauren43 (Feb 6, 2011)

Olive said:


> Hi Celt, Yes! Thank you.
> 
> I naturally tried the super positive training on my new dog, Molly, as our older dog, Claude, was so easy to train that way. He wants nothing more than to absolutely please his humans. Molly is so different in personality though. The trainers actually said that I was making her behavior worse using the ever popular positive training. The two trainers had different training philosophies too, yet both noticed she is alpha and was taking my super positive and loving training (that worked so well with Claude) as weakness. She's just different and needs very clear, strong instruction. I think she's going to be a very good girl with time though...
> 
> Thanks for chiming in-it's easy to feel picked on in reference to this type of stuff.


I don't believe in alpha theory. Actually the dominance theory has been proven wrong. And the original guy who started the dominance theory has come out and revoked his findings. Nor do I believe that dogs are out to take over the world. Yes some dogs may test boundaries but that's about as far as that goes. 

I wish you the best of luck with your dog. I personally think the methods you are currently sticking to could end up disastrous for you or the people working with her.

As for positive reinforcement training, I think you are misunderstanding the concept completely. It by no means makes you weak, nor does it make you appear weak to your dog. It has nothing to do with talking baby talk to your dog and rubbing and kissing them 24/7. It's about a mutual respect and trust. It's about setting your dog up for success and increasing difficulty based on what the dog is ready for. It is a theory completely based in science. 

Simply put it's about ignoring the behaviors you don't want and rewarding the ones you'd like to see repeated. But obviously that's the very simple version. It's much more complex than that. It's about getting rid of troublesome behaviors by replacing them with behaviors that can not coincide with the troublesome behavior. For example: jumping. Instead of just ignoring the dog, which can be extremely frustrating for many dogs, you ask for a sit. The dog can simply not jump and sit at the same time. You start indoors with people the dog is familiar with, walk up to the dog or when the dog is walking towards you ask for a sit before they jump. Reward with treats at the beginning. Though for some dog getting attention maybe of more value than treats. You do this every single time you or anyone else walks up to the dog. No exceptions. The dog will learn that an automatic sit gets them the attention they were seeking fastest and without any frustration.


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## Olive (Nov 2, 2013)

*Hi Lauren, Good Morning...*



lauren43 said:


> I don't believe in alpha theory. Actually the dominance theory has been proven wrong. And the original guy who started the dominance theory has come out and revoked his findings. Nor do I believe that dogs are out to take over the world. Yes some dogs may test boundaries but that's about as far as that goes.
> 
> I wish you the best of luck with your dog. I personally think the methods you are currently sticking to could end up disastrous for you or the people working with her.
> 
> ...



Hi Lauren, Good Morning, 

You know, the way you describe your training is a lot like what we do actually. We do a ton of positive reinforcement-so much in fact. The only difference I would say is that when I tell Molly to do something aka give a command, I have to use a much firmer and more authoritative voice than I do with our other family dog. She just won't respond if we do it any other way. But, yes, we do a lot of positive reinforcement whenever it's appropriate, we try not to reward the undesirable behaviors, and we use a very firm voice with commands (no mean stuff or physical though). It's working well, and I notice she is happier lately. We train her in front of a lot of dog lovers and those who aren't crazy about dogs. No one has ever showed any sign of being disturbed by what we do. They actually praise us for working so hard with her, b/c everyone agrees she has quite a personality of her own. Many people think we're strange for not returning her or 'getting rid of her' as I've heard a few people say. I thought the term was 're-home' but whatever;-)

In reference to 'alpha theory', I don't know. That's just what the trainers and the owner of the doggie daycare said. In any case, I do know Molly is simply different than any other dog or animal we've had. She requires a lot of attention and a ton work.

Thanks for the help and input-will keep all ideas and feelings in mind for sure. Going over to the raw forum now...

Olive


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## emirae1091 (Sep 16, 2013)

Just to clear up the confusion, TIA in this case stands for Thanks in Advance. 

Command = cue in this instance as well...

Thanks for point out both that I probably do sound frustrated occasionally (making it more confusing than if it were 100% of the time probably!). And, at this point, she may very well think that saying it 3 times is 1 command! ^_^ I do use hand signals, but that doesn't usually seem to make a difference. I do my best to not respond, do something else entirely, and then come back to the command, and that works about 50% of the time. I don't always treat after a click because although I want her to understand that the click marks the correct behaviour, I can't really go throughout my whole life giving her a treat every time she does something right. She'd be as wide as a house! Also I was thinking that I could use the clicker as a long range marker. For instance, when I call to her at the riding stable and she's further away, and she comes/gives me her attention/does whatever else I've asked. often times this would be a leave it, and I can't carry dog treats while riding. Her other option there would be to be tied/contained at all times. Or (what is currently working really well) is for her to wear the remote collar, so I can use the tone function to call her without having to yell. 

Sorry I haven't checked back in a while. I appreciate everyone's input, and I think continuing on as I have been (command 1 time, do something completely different and come back to it) is best. I was hoping I had missed something or there was a better way to do it.


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## lauren43 (Feb 6, 2011)

Would you go to work everyday if you weren't getting paid? 

It's the same concept with dogs. Building the history of reinforcement will make them more likely to do it again exactly when asked. No you do not have to reward every single time. When the behavior is new then yes you should absolutely be rewarding every single time. Once the behavior has been rehearsed 1000 times, then perhaps switch to variable reinforcement. When you move to variable reinforcement, I personally still reinforce with attention or play. Also its important to remember that variable reinforcement works best when its completely random, we as humans love patterns, so you will find yourself rewarding every 5 secs or every 3rd correct response...Make it random. Think of your treat delivery as a slot machine. People who gamble are completely randomly reinforced and will continue playing for hours without a reward, that's due random reinforcement.


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## emirae1091 (Sep 16, 2013)

i only get paid every two weeks, but i still go to work every day, so that may not be the best analogy. 

all kidding aside, i understand what you mean. but at the same time, i simply cannot always have treats on hand, so i'd rather completely randomise it: sometimes at home she gets them, sometimes at the riding stable she gets them, since these are the two main places i need commands/cues. i could reliably treat at home, but not at the barn, and i think she is smart enough to figure that one out!


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## rogerharris (Jun 13, 2013)

Nice Post! :hand:


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## CesarMillan56 (Apr 4, 2014)

I advice that please refer the dog training academy for trained your dog to getting the commands at once.

Thank you


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## StdPooDad (Mar 16, 2012)

Lauren43...I, for one, am very interested in your responses. Anytime I can read more about science based training from a KPA person, that's a good thing!


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