# Nutro



## bellamicuore

I found this on 2 other boards and thought it was important to share:

A total of six dogs died as indicated in this article:

http://www.consumeraffairs.com/news04/2 ... lls98.html


----------



## imported_admin

Check out the link... I tried to visit it but got an error.

Good to go... Very nice article. Thanks for bringing it to the forum.


----------



## bellamicuore

admin said:


> Check out the link... I tried to visit it but got an error.


Sorry. Try it now.


----------



## smeneb

I feed my 3 little dogs Nutro Max and haven't had any problems but this is worrying me. I switched from Purina Pro Plan about 6 months ago because they liked the taste of Nutro Max better. Now I'm worried.


----------



## bellamicuore

I think you should be worried. I've heard many people on different message boards say that this food is making their dog sick. Good foods to try would be:
Canidae
Solid Gold
Innova
California Kitchen
Fromm
Wellness
Wysong


----------



## Guest

I'm not a fan of Nutro at all, though their Ultra formula is decent. However, Nutro has recently been purchased by Purina so I'm not sure if the formulas will change. Currently the Natural Choice line is being repackaged and has been for several months now.


----------



## steedaunh32

*Worried about Nutro*

Well I've had my pup on Nutro for a little bit now (not even a month) and I'm hearing so much negativity about it I'm seriously considering taking him off it. I've heard good things about Innova but I also heard that it might be too much protein for small dogs? I have a mini doxie pup. Any advice? This is my first small dog and I'm not sure what to do here...thanks!

-Nicole


----------



## bellamicuore

I don't think it's the Innova that has too much protein. I believe it's the Evo. It's grain free and therefore higher in protein. My Bella couldn't take the richness of the Evo.


----------



## Roccaes

*I switched*

I fed my NUTRO for years and had no problems personally but I was not willing to take the chance and switched to a California Natural instead.


----------



## mastifflover2

*nutro*

Here is another link about Nutro, an important article from June 2008:
http://hubpages.com/hub/Nutro_Dog_Food_Recall_Information


----------



## bellamicuore

I got an email today from dogstarspace.com that I wanted to share:

A message to all members of www.DogStarSpace.com Nutro "Nature Choice" line of food is highly suspected in the deaths of 6 Dogs in the past month. 2 were Rottwieler Rescues, and 1 German Shepherd, which were part of one household in Florida. Then another household had 3 German Shepherds in Central Florida, who all consumed this product, then all died within 48 hours. Nutro ignored the parent of the 3 dead German Shepherds and has refused to cooperate. If you use any Nutro products: stop using them at once. Return them to the store where you bought them, and tell that store why you are returning them. Please repost this critical food alert, and tell your neighbors and friends with Dogs!! A BIG thank you to DSS member Beagahoula pen for notifying us of this alert!! Visit www.DogStarSpace.com at: http://www.dogstarspace.com


----------



## domari

I've been feeding most of my dogs Nutro dry food for years. They get Lamb and Rice, or Chicken, Rice and Oatmeal. They've never had any health issues at all. 
I still haven't seen any real reason to worry about it.

I called the store about it, they aren't taking it back because there aren't any recalls.


----------



## domari

LPacker79 said:


> I'm not a fan of Nutro at all, though their Ultra formula is decent. However, Nutro has recently been purchased by Purina so I'm not sure if the formulas will change. Currently the Natural Choice line is being repackaged and has been for several months now.


Nutro was bought by Mars, and Purina is made by Nestle. I can't find anything that said Nutro is made by Purina, do you have any info about that? Thanks.


----------



## BoxerMommie

domari said:


> I've been feeding most of my dogs Nutro dry food for years. They get Lamb and Rice, or Chicken, Rice and Oatmeal. They've never had any health issues at all.
> I still haven't seen any real reason to worry about it.
> 
> I called the store about it, they aren't taking it back because there aren't any recalls.



Personally I would not purchase a food that did not have a 100% satisfaction guarantee no questions asked. I canot tell you how many bags of food I have returned due to my dog's tummy issues no questions asked just said it didn't work for us. All of the premium brands have this guarantee, you may want to check on the nutro bag I don't know if they do or not.


----------



## rannmiller

domari said:


> Nutro was bought by Mars, and Purina is made by Nestle. I can't find anything that said Nutro is made by Purina, do you have any info about that? Thanks.


THANK YOU!! People have been saying that all over this site, but Nutro is definitely not made or purchased by Purina to the best of my knowledge and according to both of their websites. The reason they changed their Nutro Max packaging was because it looked "out-dated" and they reformulated their ingredients. I know their cat food ingredients got a little better 

On another note, Nutro does have a 100% guarantee, you just have to call the number on the bag, not the store you got it from. Of course, if your dogs aren't having a problem with it and you are satisfied, they may be more reluctant to work with you, especially if you don't have a receipt.


----------



## domari

rannmiller said:


> THANK YOU!! People have been saying that all over this site, but Nutro is definitely not made or purchased by Purina to the best of my knowledge and according to both of their websites. The reason they changed their Nutro Max packaging was because it looked "out-dated" and they reformulated their ingredients. I know their cat food ingredients got a little better
> 
> On another note, Nutro does have a 100% guarantee, you just have to call the number on the bag, not the store you got it from. Of course, if your dogs aren't having a problem with it and you are satisfied, they may be more reluctant to work with you, especially if you don't have a receipt.


A lot of companies change the look of the packaging, Raisin Bran just did and it's still made in the same place the same way, just the box is different. I haven't checked the Nutro cat food lately, I used to feed it to my cats, but switched to Chicken Soup which isn't all that great either. 

Nutro has a guarantee, but that doesn't mean the store will take it back. If the dogs get a belly ache from the food, it's not the fault of the store. I never checked the guarantee because the dogs all seem fine and happy with it. Even my most finicky dog who hated most dry food will eat it.


----------



## rannmiller

Yeah but I did check the ingredients before and after and they definitely changed. 

And like I said, the stores don't give the guarantee, the companies do.


----------



## BoxerMommie

domari said:


> A lot of companies change the look of the packaging, Raisin Bran just did and it's still made in the same place the same way, just the box is different. I haven't checked the Nutro cat food lately, I used to feed it to my cats, but switched to Chicken Soup which isn't all that great either.
> 
> Nutro has a guarantee, but that doesn't mean the store will take it back. If the dogs get a belly ache from the food, it's not the fault of the store. I never checked the guarantee because the dogs all seem fine and happy with it. Even my most finicky dog who hated most dry food will eat it.


Most of the time the dog food company does the guarantee through the store. The store takes it back sends back the UPC code of the food to the company and the company reimburses them. I have always returned foods to the store and trust me, I've returned over $500 worth of food easy in the past year many many different brands to include California Natural, Canidae, chicken Soup, Blue Buffalo, Taste of the Wild, Wellness, Kirkland Signature, to name just a few, all were taken back by the store, refunded and then the store gets the money back from the manufacturer. This isn't all of the time, but it's the majority of the time.


----------



## Guest

domari said:


> Nutro was bought by Mars, and Purina is made by Nestle. I can't find anything that said Nutro is made by Purina, do you have any info about that? Thanks.


The info came from the Nutro rep at my store. I'll double check with him again on Thursday though. He's new, so maybe he was mistaken.


----------



## rannmiller

Wow, if a Nutro rep told you that, he should probably not be working for Nutro since that's not true and an insult to the food. I know most of you aren't too keen on Nutro, but you have to admit it's better than Purina.


----------



## domari

Nestle owns Purina, but they have other brands as well. Mars owns Nutro and other brands as well. 

Many people thought Chicken Soup was the best food for their dogs and cats until they found out Chicken Soup was made by Diamond, which most consider trash. When there was a problem with one ingredient in Diamond pet food (which didn't even affect all varieties) all of a sudden people who always bragged about Chicken Soup being the best food, changed their tune and stopped feeding it. Taste of the Wild is also made by Diamond. I know a lot of people think it's no good because of the company that owns it.


----------



## rannmiller

Most of the time, the large companies own the smaller ones and let them do their own thing, for the most part. I know that Royal Canin has referred to Mars (who owns them as well) to being their "sugar daddy." They use them for the money and do their own thing with it. Conversely, Mars also owns Pedigree and Whole Meals, that doesn't mean that Nutro and Royal Canin are going to start adding whole ground corn, chemical preservatives, animal by-products, and artificial color just because they're all owned by Mars. 

Anyway, the point is: judge a food by its ingredients and performance, not the overarching company it's owned by... and that Nutro and Purina aren't owned by the same company.


----------



## rannmiller

Okay, so I have a "friend" who works for Nutro as one of their reps. She turns in her time cards via fax after every shift as is required of her. Every now and then (12 or more times) the time cards don't go through or get cut off or blurred. She got in trouble for this because she didn't know this was happening, so she started sending them through 6 or 7 times each, to make sure that at least one copy would be legible or that they could piece them together or something.
Finally in May, she got an angry e-mail from her Territory Demo Manager (TDM) saying that she had 12 time cards that didn't go through, some of them from as far back as January. She'd had no idea, and was chastised for it. She collected all of these time cards and mailed them in to payroll to be taken care of.
Two weeks later she received another angry e-mail that said she still owed time cards from the first batch and now new ones that weren't coming in. Confused, she e-mailed her TDM back and called her telling her that she'd already mailed them in, so payroll had her only copy of them so there was nothing she could do about it short of forging signatures.
After no reply from her TDM for a month, she assumed the issue was resolved and tried to watch her pay stubs more closely to make sure it didn't happen again.
Today, her TDM called her, angry as usual, saying that these time cards were still missing and that she had e-mailed and called her several times regarding them (not true). The Nutro rep, confused, explained what had happened to her TDM who barreled on continuing to tell her it was her fault and her irresponsibility that causes these problems even though she's done everything she can to avoid them short of driving them the 9 hours to the payroll office herself.
The TDM ends the call with "I'll e-mail you some signed time cards so you can get this taken care of. If they aren't in within 24 hours of the day they are delivered to you, you won't be working that week and I will drive down and we can discuss what your problem is in person." In order for her to get the time cards in within 24 hours, she'll have to fax them, a method known for repeatedly failing in the past.
She's now extremely tempted to put in her two weeks notice with Nutro and get a better-paying job with a better, more organized pet food company or perhaps go work for the SPCA (not nearly as much money). Any advice for my "friend" would be greatly appreciated, thank you!


----------



## domari

What brands are better than Nutro, yet around the same price range?
Our Tractor Supply store sells Nutro Lamb and Rice or Chicken Rice and Oatmeal for around $35 fo 40lb bag.


----------



## BoxerMommie

domari said:


> What brands are better than Nutro, yet around the same price range?
> Our Tractor Supply store sells Nutro Lamb and Rice or Chicken Rice and Oatmeal for around $35 fo 40lb bag.



I get Healthwise (made by Natura who makes Innova) that is a good food for a 40 pound bag for $38 and change. Also there's Avoderm and Blue Buffalo that are around the same price (maybe a few bucks more, but within that range anyway). There's also Canidae, where I would get a 40 pound bag for $35. They downgraded their product but it still isn't bad, it's just not as good as it was. Chicken Soup, I used to get that which is a 35 pound bag for $27 at a feed store


----------



## domari

BoxerMommie said:


> I get Healthwise (made by Natura who makes Innova) that is a good food for a 40 pound bag for $38 and change. Also there's Avoderm and Blue Buffalo that are around the same price (maybe a few bucks more, but within that range anyway). There's also Canidae, where I would get a 40 pound bag for $35. They downgraded their product but it still isn't bad, it's just not as good as it was. Chicken Soup, I used to get that which is a 35 pound bag for $27 at a feed store


I feed my cats Chicken Soup dry food, along with Innova canned food, it works for most of them. I considered giving it to it for the dogs. I brought home samples of it before and it seemed a bit too rich for some of the dogs. 
Since it has fish in it, and made by Diamond, wouldn't it have the same thing in it that's in Taste of the Wild that you said causes cancer?

I don't know if the store carries Healthwise, the name doesn't sound familiar. They don't have Avoderm or Blue Buffalo. Tractor Supply carries one variety of Blue Buffalo for cats, but it's too expensive, a lot more than the Chicken Soup.


----------



## BoxerMommie

domari said:


> I feed my cats Chicken Soup dry food, along with Innova canned food, it works for most of them. I considered giving it to it for the dogs. I brought home samples of it before and it seemed a bit too rich for some of the dogs.
> Since it has fish in it, and made by Diamond, wouldn't it have the same thing in it that's in Taste of the Wild that you said causes cancer?
> 
> I don't know if the store carries Healthwise, the name doesn't sound familiar. They don't have Avoderm or Blue Buffalo. Tractor Supply carries one variety of Blue Buffalo for cats, but it's too expensive, a lot more than the Chicken Soup.


Chicken Soup used to use Ethoxyquin free fish, but that was oh 2 years ago that I used that food, I couldn't tell you if they still do or not you'd have to contact the company.

Healthwise is made by Natura if they sell Innova they can order Healthwise as it's the same company. The place I get it has to special order it for me but since they carry the contract with Innova it isn't a big deal, I just have to give like a week's notice on when I need more and they order it no problem.


----------



## domari

BoxerMommie said:


> Chicken Soup used to use Ethoxyquin free fish, but that was oh 2 years ago that I used that food, I couldn't tell you if they still do or not you'd have to contact the company.
> 
> Healthwise is made by Natura if they sell Innova they can order Healthwise as it's the same company. The place I get it has to special order it for me but since they carry the contract with Innova it isn't a big deal, I just have to give like a week's notice on when I need more and they order it no problem.


I just thought all the ingredients in Diamond food would come from the same suppliers, so if one has it, they all would. 

As far as ordering food, I wish it was that easy. I went through hell and back with the feed store as well as Tractor Supply and was furious because I got nowhere other than around in circles. 

I get TOTW for two of the dogs from Tractor Supply, they carry only two varieties for dogs only but that's ok. I wanted to try it for my cats, so I asked if they could order it. Sounds simple. 

The manager said they can only get what they get from the main warehouse. So I contacted the main headquarters of TSC and asked if they could get the cat food. Nope. Then I contacted Diamond to see if they could send a rep to TSC and find out if they could get the cat food. The regional sales manager from Diamond replied and said "Tractor Supply is only trying Taste Of The Wild in the dog formulas. It is only a trial basis in around 60 of their 700 stores". So I suppose if it doesn't sell really well, it will disappear off the shelves in a few months. 

So I asked about TOTW at the other feed store which is a smaller NY state chain. First I went to the manager, who said it's not in their computer system so they can't order it. They carry other Diamond products, that's where I buy Chicken Soup for the cats. I also buy Innova canned for the cats, but they don't have Innova dry for cats. They carry all kinds of regular Diamond dog and cat food. So getting TOTW should be simple, right?? NOPE. 

The local store manager said she couldn't order TOTW for dogs or cats. So I go over her head, to the main office, got absolutely nowhere, they didn't even reply to me by phone or email. 

So I asked Diamond about contacting them, the sales manager told me that store has the ability to special order this product in. They have 11 stores and 3 of them are selling the full product line of TOTW! That really ticked me off. If three stores are selling it, why can't this one?

So back to the beginning... I'm going to the feedstore tomorrow to buy cat food and printing out the email that the Diamond sent me. Now I really don't even care if they get the TOTW cat food or not, the point is, they lied about the ability to order it in the first place. 

I've had to special order Chicken Soup, and half the time they don't get it when they say they will. 

This is probably why most people around here feed Purina or Old Roy. Just go to Walmart and pick up a bag, simple and easy.


----------



## BoxerMommie

domari said:


> I just thought all the ingredients in Diamond food would come from the same suppliers, so if one has it, they all would.
> 
> As far as ordering food, I wish it was that easy. I went through hell and back with the feed store as well as Tractor Supply and was furious because I got nowhere other than around in circles.
> 
> I get TOTW for two of the dogs from Tractor Supply, they carry only two varieties for dogs only but that's ok. I wanted to try it for my cats, so I asked if they could order it. Sounds simple.
> 
> The manager said they can only get what they get from the main warehouse. So I contacted the main headquarters of TSC and asked if they could get the cat food. Nope. Then I contacted Diamond to see if they could send a rep to TSC and find out if they could get the cat food. The regional sales manager from Diamond replied and said "Tractor Supply is only trying Taste Of The Wild in the dog formulas. It is only a trial basis in around 60 of their 700 stores". So I suppose if it doesn't sell really well, it will disappear off the shelves in a few months.
> 
> So I asked about TOTW at the other feed store which is a smaller NY state chain. First I went to the manager, who said it's not in their computer system so they can't order it. They carry other Diamond products, that's where I buy Chicken Soup for the cats. I also buy Innova canned for the cats, but they don't have Innova dry for cats. They carry all kinds of regular Diamond dog and cat food. So getting TOTW should be simple, right?? NOPE.
> 
> The local store manager said she couldn't order TOTW for dogs or cats. So I go over her head, to the main office, got absolutely nowhere, they didn't even reply to me by phone or email.
> 
> So I asked Diamond about contacting them, the sales manager told me that store has the ability to special order this product in. They have 11 stores and 3 of them are selling the full product line of TOTW! That really ticked me off. If three stores are selling it, why can't this one?
> 
> So back to the beginning... I'm going to the feedstore tomorrow to buy cat food and printing out the email that the Diamond sent me. Now I really don't even care if they get the TOTW cat food or not, the point is, they lied about the ability to order it in the first place.
> 
> I've had to special order Chicken Soup, and half the time they don't get it when they say they will.
> 
> This is probably why most people around here feed Purina or Old Roy. Just go to Walmart and pick up a bag, simple and easy.


Good grief! And no just because it's owned by Diamond, I *believe* (although I am not 100% sure) that Chicken Soup where owned by them does not receive their stuff from the same supplier and has their own processing plant as well, however I am not 100% certain of that. I know when I fed it it was Ethoxyquin free, however I haven't fed it in probably a good 2 years so I could not tell you for sure now. 

I can't believe they are such a pain in the rear about ordering food! The place I order from is all too happy to order it, they even call me when it comes in. The other feed store I used to use was like that also. Love them both!


----------



## domari

BoxerMommie said:


> Good grief! And no just because it's owned by Diamond, I *believe* (although I am not 100% sure) that Chicken Soup where owned by them does not receive their stuff from the same supplier and has their own processing plant as well, however I am not 100% certain of that. I know when I fed it it was Ethoxyquin free, however I haven't fed it in probably a good 2 years so I could not tell you for sure now.
> 
> I can't believe they are such a pain in the rear about ordering food! The place I order from is all too happy to order it, they even call me when it comes in. The other feed store I used to use was like that also. Love them both!


I remember when there was the big recall, Diamond products were all lumped together. A lot of people who swore by Chicken Soup decided not to feed it anymore because they said everything from Diamond was bought from the same suppliers. Diamond said that wasn't true, but a lot of dog food experts stopped feeding Chicken Soup. 

Who was it that said Nutro quality was bad because it was owned by the same company that other brands, does Mars use the same supplier for all their food? Why wouldn't Diamond do that?

I'm not complaining about any of the Diamond products, just wondering why you'd say TOTW contains Ethoxyquin, but other Diamond products containing fish would not. Since I still haven't seen any proof that TOTW contains Ethoxyquin, I'm going to assume that Diamond gets their ingredients from the same suppliers and it's all good. Chicken Soup and TOTW should be just as safe to use. 

Yes the feed store is a pain. You don't know how many times I had a fit going in there to get cat food, which they were supposed to order for me and put in the back with my name on it, only to find they didn't get it in. I've had to buy the little bags of cat food for $2.99 just to get by for a few days, then drive back up there when they get it in.


----------



## BoxerMommie

domari said:


> I remember when there was the big recall, Diamond products were all lumped together. A lot of people who swore by Chicken Soup decided not to feed it anymore because they said everything from Diamond was bought from the same suppliers. Diamond said that wasn't true, but a lot of dog food experts stopped feeding Chicken Soup.
> 
> Who was it that said Nutro quality was bad because it was owned by the same company that other brands, does Mars use the same supplier for all their food? Why wouldn't Diamond do that?
> 
> I'm not complaining about any of the Diamond products, just wondering why you'd say TOTW contains Ethoxyquin, but other Diamond products containing fish would not. Since I still haven't seen any proof that TOTW contains Ethoxyquin, I'm going to assume that Diamond gets their ingredients from the same suppliers and it's all good. Chicken Soup and TOTW should be just as safe to use.
> 
> Yes the feed store is a pain. You don't know how many times I had a fit going in there to get cat food, which they were supposed to order for me and put in the back with my name on it, only to find they didn't get it in. I've had to buy the little bags of cat food for $2.99 just to get by for a few days, then drive back up there when they get it in.


I'm not assuming anything I CALLED THEM and SPOKE TO THEM and verified that Chicken Soup was Ethoxyquin free (this was before TOTW existed). When I did this with TOTW they could not tell me this, but again, this was 2 years ago or more for Chicken Soup, they may have changed suppliers and it's not guaranteed anymore, I have not cared to look into it because I do not feed it anymore for other reasons. I have spoken to them know (knew) first hand, when I e-mailed them regarding taste of the wild I was given the run around which means that it is not guaranteed, I was told point blank at the time (again before TOTW existed, at least as far as I know) that Chicken Soup WAS guaranteed to be Ethoxyquin free, they could not and would not say that about TOTW 2+ years later. Again if you aren't going to take the tiem to speak to the companies personally don't assume anything, and stop arguing about it if it obviously doesn't mean anything to you, it did to me so I spent the time necessary to find out. I spent days e-mailing back and forth and finally just called them, it was and is important to me to not use a food and support a company that uses it not to mention given that I have Boxers especially I don't need to be stackign the odds against them since they're walking cancer sticks to begin with.


----------



## domari

BoxerMommie said:


> I'm not assuming anything I CALLED THEM and SPOKE TO THEM and verified that Chicken Soup was Ethoxyquin free (this was before TOTW existed). When I did this with TOTW they could not tell me this, but again, this was 2 years ago or more for Chicken Soup, they may have changed suppliers and it's not guaranteed anymore, I have not cared to look into it because I do not feed it anymore for other reasons. I have spoken to them know (knew) first hand, when I e-mailed them regarding taste of the wild I was given the run around which means that it is not guaranteed, I was told point blank at the time (again before TOTW existed, at least as far as I know) that Chicken Soup WAS guaranteed to be Ethoxyquin free, they could not and would not say that about TOTW 2+ years later. Again if you aren't going to take the tiem to speak to the companies personally don't assume anything, and stop arguing about it if it obviously doesn't mean anything to you, it did to me so I spent the time necessary to find out. I spent days e-mailing back and forth and finally just called them, it was and is important to me to not use a food and support a company that uses it not to mention given that I have Boxers especially I don't need to be stackign the odds against them since they're walking cancer sticks to begin with.



I never said it doesn't mean anything to me. I just have not seen any drop of evidence of proof from anywhere that TOTW contains Ethoxyquin. 

And taking someone's word for it over the phone is not at all a "guarantee" in my book. As I said before, I want to see some evidence, some sort of dog food analysis that proves that Ethoxyquin is in that food. 

There was a big stink made about pet food companies using euthanized pets in their food. It was rumoured that shelters dumped off their dead animals to rendering companies, which turned the dead pets into dog food. But when the food was tested for DNA not a drop of dog or cat DNA was found. The naysayers refuse to admit they might have been wrong, so the same old story about using euthanized pets continues to make it's rounds. 

Pet food is analyzed all the time, so these sorts of horrors are broadcasted all over the internet. I'm sure if Ethoxyquin was really in the food, someone would post some scientific proof that it's there.


----------



## RawFedDogs

domari said:


> But when the food was tested for DNA not a drop of dog or cat DNA was found.


I'm still not convinced either way but I don't really care since I don't feed it. They have found traces of pentabarbatol(spelling is very bad here) in dog food.



> Pet food is analyzed all the time,


Who does this?



> I'm sure if Ethoxyquin was really in the food, someone would post some scientific proof that it's there.


There is no need. The law says that fish caught commercially that will not be for human use MUST be preserved with Ethoxyquin. There are ways to get exemptions but it's a lot of trouble and I doubt it's done very often if ever. If the Ethoxyguin is put in the fish by the fishermen, the dog food company does not have to list it as an ingredient and they don't have to tell you it's in there. Chances are very great that if the dog food contains fish, it also contains Ethoxyguin regardless of what a person tells you on the phone. They have no legal obligation to tell you it's there. I would also think that if it is in the dog food, it is in VERY small amounts. Probably not enough to be concerned with.


----------



## domari

RawFedDogs said:


> I'm still not convinced either way but I don't really care since I don't feed it. They have found traces of pentabarbatol(spelling is very bad here) in dog food.
> 
> 
> 
> Who does this?
> 
> 
> 
> There is no need. The law says that fish caught commercially that will not be for human use MUST be preserved with Ethoxyquin. There are ways to get exemptions but it's a lot of trouble and I doubt it's done very often if ever. If the Ethoxyguin is put in the fish by the fishermen, the dog food company does not have to list it as an ingredient and they don't have to tell you it's in there. Chances are very great that if the dog food contains fish, it also contains Ethoxyguin regardless of what a person tells you on the phone. They have no legal obligation to tell you it's there. I would also think that if it is in the dog food, it is in VERY small amounts. Probably not enough to be concerned with.



Is this a US law?? Is it required in all fish or just the fish meal?

Yes, I read that the food companies only have to list their own ingredients, not what was in the food prior to their obtaining it. This would also go for all the other ingredients, and has become obvious when there are so many recalls of pet and human food because of unknown whatever coming from unknown sources. 

Want a jalpeno pepper? 

Who analyzes food? Don't know, must be the same people who find all the other stuff that's bad for dogs in it. Who found the Pentobarbital in the food? Who is analyzing food to see what kind of cooties are in the grain?

What are the fish eaten by humans preserved with?


----------



## domari

"The whole ethoxyquin scare started from a single rumour, which became so blown out of proportion via internet chat forums that it eventually turned into another urban myth. 
The only reason that this preservative ever came into question, was due to a study performed on rats back in 1987 where the dose level of 5,000 ppm ethoxyquin, which is FAR higher than approved levels in pet food, suggested a carcinogenic
potential. Ethoxyquin has since been blamed for a myriad of problems, none of which have ever been proven. 

Considering the outcry over this preservative by dog owners worldwide, one would think that by now there would be a plethora of data/studies that actually proved that this preservative caused at least some type of long-term health issue in pets. 
There is not a single documented case where ethoxyquin used at approved levels has been found to cause any type of long term negative health condition in a dog, cat, fish, or otherwise. One would think that with all of the hysterical anti-ethoxyquin crusades that have taken place over the past 20 yrs or so that at least one non biased study would be able to prove that this substance can cause serious long term health issues in pets, even when used at appropriate or approved levels. Yet to date, there is not a single shred of scientific evidence that supports such a view. "


----------



## RawFedDogs

domari said:


> Is this a US law?? Is it required in all fish or just the fish meal?


Yes it's US law. I'm under the impression it's done while still at sea but I'm not sure about that. That would mean it would have to be fish.



> Who analyzes food? Don't know, must be the same people who find all the other stuff that's bad for dogs in it. Who found the Pentobarbital in the food?


This is just ordinary people who pay for independent lab analysis.



> What are the fish eaten by humans preserved with?


I don't know. I THINK it is just iced down but again, I'm not sure.


----------



## RawFedDogs

domari said:


> Considering the outcry over this preservative by dog owners worldwide, one would think that by now there would be a plethora of data/studies that actually proved that this preservative caused at least some type of long-term health issue in pets.


Studies take time and cost A LOT of money. Who would pay for these studies? Certainly not the pet food companies. There is MUCH more involved than just paying a lab a few bucks for an analysis.



> There is not a single documented case where ethoxyquin used at approved levels has been found to cause any type of long term negative health condition in a dog, cat, fish, or otherwise. One would think that with all of the hysterical anti-ethoxyquin crusades that have taken place over the past 20 yrs or so that at least one non biased study would be able to prove that this substance can cause serious long term health issues in pets, even when used at appropriate or approved levels. Yet to date, there is not a single shred of scientific evidence that supports such a view. "


Again, who is going to pay for such a study? Ethoxyquin is used as an insecticide. Who is comfortable feeding their dog an insecticide in any amount?


----------



## domari

RawFedDogs said:


> Studies take time and cost A LOT of money. Who would pay for these studies? Certainly not the pet food companies. There is MUCH more involved than just paying a lab a few bucks for an analysis.
> 
> 
> 
> Again, who is going to pay for such a study? Ethoxyquin is used as an insecticide. Who is comfortable feeding their dog an insecticide in any amount?


Who pays for all the other studies? 

If studies aren't done on dog foods, and if they aren't analyzed, then how does anyone know that the most highest priced dog foogs out there aren't full of all kinds of creepy things too?


----------



## domari

RawFedDogs said:


> Yes it's US law. I'm under the impression it's done while still at sea but I'm not sure about that. That would mean it would have to be fish.
> 
> I don't know. I THINK it is just iced down but again, I'm not sure.


So do the fishermen decide right there on the boat which fish will be fed to humans and which ones will be fed to animals?

Do you know where this law might be written? Since I eat fish, I'd like to find out more about this. I haven't been able to find any law that says fish must be preserved with this.

I did find that the FDA says it's ok to use as a preservative in human food.

CHAPTER I--FOOD AND DRUG ADMINISTRATION, DEPARTMENT OF HEALTH AND HUMAN 
SERVICES (CONTINUED)

PART 172_FOOD ADDITIVES PERMITTED FOR DIRECT ADDITION TO FOOD FOR HUMAN 

CONSUMPTION--Table of Contents


Subpart A_General Provisions

Sec.
172.5 General provisions for direct food additives.

Subpart B_Food Preservatives

172.105 Anoxomer.
172.110 BHA.
172.115 BHT.
172.120 Calcium disodium EDTA.
172.130 Dehydroacetic acid.
172.133 Dimethyl dicarbonate.
172.135 Disodium EDTA.
172.140 Ethoxyquin.
172.145 Heptylparaben.
172.150 4-Hydroxymethyl-2,6-di-tert-butyl-phenol.
172.155 Natamycin (pimaricin).
172.160 Potassium nitrate.
172.165 Quaternary ammonium chloride combination.
172.170 Sodium nitrate.
172.175 Sodium nitrite.
172.177 Sodium nitrite used in processing smoked chub.
172.180 Stannous chloride.
172.185 TBHQ.
172.190 THBP.


----------



## rannmiller

Has anyone heard anything recently about Nutro (especially the Max) making dogs sick lately?


----------



## mastifflover2

This was from 04/18/2008 
http://www.consumeraffairs.com/news04/2008/04/pet_food_recalls93.html
June 23, 2008
http://www.consumeraffairs.com/news04/2008/06/pet_food_recalls98.html
August 6, 2008
http://www.consumeraffairs.com/news04/2008/08/pet_food_recalls99.html
August 2007
http://www.consumeraffairs.com/news04/2007/08/pet_food_recalls69.html
I have read many other places about Nutro making their dogs sick. My older Mastiff was on it for years, never had a problem thank goodness. I think they must have changed their formula or something because he absolutely refused to eat it. So I had to change foods. I'm glad I did now. Hope this helps!


----------



## rannmiller

Thank you! My brother's girlfriend was feeding their dog Kirkland brand and switched to Nutro Max and a week later the poor guy was vomiting every day. So they're switching him back again, lets hope for the best.


----------



## Catahoulagirl

I switched my dogs from Nutro Natural Choice several months ago. They had been on it for years. They both started vomiting yellow bile everyday and my lab mix had several bouts of diarrhea. I then started noticing that they really didn't seem to like it. I switched to Merrick and The Honest Kitchen and have had no problems at all.


----------



## rannmiller

Wow the vomiting of yellow bile is exactly what's happening to their lab only he still loves the food! The complained of the Nutro Max being too expensive and when the vet suggested Sensible Choice lamb and rice (apparently a very simple, formula and holy crap a vet that doesn't pedal SD or Purina or something else terrible) at $40/30lbs. So she switched him back to Costco brand food.


----------



## domari

rannmiller said:


> Has anyone heard anything recently about Nutro (especially the Max) making dogs sick lately?


Nope, but those rumors like to make their rounds every now and then. 

I wonder if the price of Nutro has gone up a lot in other places as it has around here. It's gone up from $35 to $44 for a 40 lb bag. Chicken Soup for dogs and Canidae are now less expensive than Nutro, I can still get them for less than $1 a lb.


----------



## rannmiller

Oh yes it has gone up here, I think it's pretty ridiculous. People who used to buy Natural Choice could now easily buy a MUCH higher quality food for the same price.


----------



## domari

I've fed four of my dogs Nutro Natural Choice Lamb and Rice or Chicken Rice and Oatmeal for years and never ever had a problem with it. They're all perfectly healthy, no vomiting, diarrhea or anything like that. 

I'm changing food now because the price of Nutro has gone up quite a bit.


----------



## rannmiller

My one dog ended up getting bloated when she was switched to Nutro Ultra, so I changed her to Wellness Core. My two other dogs did okay on Natural Choice, but always had really soft stools and lots of 'em! *shrug* I guess different dogs react differently to the foods, I have no clue.


----------



## BrandysMom

*I am so glad I found this site!*

We switched our Senior dog to Nutro Natural Choice Senior about 4 or 5 months ago and had no problems whatsoever. She seemed to like it and we even bought the biscuits to feed her as well. She loves them and the Old Mother Hubbard . Long story short Tuesday she became violently ill. She was vomitting/slobbering all over her chin and had black (pitch Black) almost tarry like diarrhea/bloody stool (the smell was so awful I had to open all the windows) it lasted all day. I was so upset I called my husband home from work and we made a list of all the things she'd eaten that day and the previous day. She was ill all Tuesday and a little bit on Wednesday and then that night she started getting her appetite back but REFUSED to touch her dog food. Everything seemed to be back to normal except she wouldn't eat her food. We gave her a little hamburger on Wednesday night and she's had some gas (REALLY awful smelling gas) but no vomitting, no diarrhea since she's been off her dog food. Yesterday (thursday) I gave her boiled chicken breast with rice and she's been good with that. I've never had a problem with Nutro ever and I just don't want to believe that's what did it but she's been so much better since we quit giving it to her. Is it possible we just got a bad bag? We bought this bag from the Commissary here on post and only used about 4 cups 2 of those went directly into the trash!

ANY advice would be greatly appreciated. We used to feed her Beneful and she's tried Science Diet and didn't like it. At this point I"m thinking of just sticking with homemade food I know what she's getting.


----------



## rannmiller

Hey my senior dog was on Natural Choice Senior too and there was a huge improvement from when she was on Science Diet, however like I said, she still had lose stools. I switched her and all my other pets to raw and now there's no more lose stools, no vomiting, diarrhea, it's been great. So long story short, I really like the homemade food thing and if it works for your dog, I'd say stick with it. At least you know what's in it and you don't have to worry about getting a "bad" batch.


----------



## andrewlo

*Nutro Small Bites*

All Three of my dogs have had the runs for most of this week and I couldn't figure it out. I am switching foods today.


----------



## BrandysMom

So true, and she's been doing so much better I think she'll be eating homemade from now on. I just can't risk her health trying different foods and your right I know just what she's getting.

Thanks!:smile:


----------



## lconversa

*Nutro food*

I had some Nutro and it made 6 of my rescue dogs sick so I took them off it and called the company. I was asked to return samples of the food for testing, which I did. It took 11 weeks to get a response from Nutro but finally I received their response and results. They sent me a letter stating that there was nothing wrong with the food PERIOD. I had already switched back to the food I was using prior and the dogs were fine after a couple of weeks and some medication. It only took two days for the dogs to become very, very ill on Nutro, and with meds and new food they recovered. I kept some of the food to make sure I had samples here if I lost any dogs. After another 2 weeks I got a check from Nutro completely re-imbursing me for the food purchased. No explanation, just a check. Since I have so many dogs coming thru for rescue I was fortunate there were no deaths. Will I recommend this food??? NEVER AGAIN.


----------



## domari

Which varieties of Nutro are you feeding them that's made them sick. 

Either my dogs have strong digestive systems or the food I've been giving them just isn't a problem. I have one dog that's had stomach issues doesn't matter what brand or variety it is, so he doesn't eat Nutro. But the others still have never had a problem on it.


----------



## hlorax

*Nutro poisoning cover-up*

I had fed Nutro natural choice for over 10 years with no issues. In April 2008, my malamute and mal/shep mix, who had never had any health issues, both became critically ill within the same weekend. They had fevers of 105, and their liver/pancreatic levels were off the charts. The vets at the emergency clinic were stumped, only said the symptoms were consistant with poisoning. (They had absolutely no access to any poisons). My vet bills were over $2000. My 12-yr old girl died 2 days later, My 9-yr old recovered when I began cooking his own food, but has a permanant head-tilt from the neurological damage he suffered. 
If you go to consumer affairs.com, there are dozens of similar stories, most taking place between March and July of this year. Nutro is denying any involvement whatsoever. Every time new evidence is released, (including recent proof of zinc/copper toxicity) they refute the evidence and issue a statement stating how safe their food is. I've talked to their customer service reps on multiple occasions. They read canned statements and lie to me about looking into my case. They want all the information I have sent to their legal department, and offer no other recourse. 
Earlier in the year you could not find Nutro lamb and rice on the shelves. Nutro stated it was a 'supplier issue'. That is a lie. This was the same time as the poisonings. 
More and more information will hopefully continue to come out. I believe this case will be as big as the 2007 case. Please don't feed your dog Nutro! Even if it's not every bag, it's just not worth the risk!


----------



## Crzy4Bostons

*Please stop ragging on Nutro!!*

I wish people would learn things before posting and freaking everyone out. Look at Nutroproducts.com and you will see the food is SAFE with very high quality ingredients. If you suddenly change a dogs diet and don't wean he/she off of the old food and give other kinds of lower quality treats, table food and junk, yes there is a greater chance for upset. Not to sound like a know it all but I have 8 dogs all on Nutro for almost 10 years and NEVER had a problem!!!!! I have given them every single line Nutro Max, Nutro Natural Choice, and Nutro Ultra. No, not every food will agree with every dog and cat and Nutro may not agree with every dog or cat. All I am saying is the food is very very safe and manufactured here in the U.S. Nothing imported!!!!! They guarantee safety as there is a whole section dedicated to this due to all the remarks on their quality and safety on the left of their homepage as well as contact info etc. so nobody should worry. If you google every brand of pet food you will find bad and good comments about all of them.


----------



## BoxerMommie

I would just like to say that Nutro is FAR from a food with "high quality ingredients", especially for the price tag.


----------



## Crzy4Bostons

What is it you don't consider high quality?, it is ALL Natural, No By-Products, No Whole ground corn, lots of vitamins/minerals that are naturally preserved, no colors added, or artificial flavors, glucosamine/Chondroitin for joints, and omega's for skin and coat. Every single ingredient in the food serves a purpose. I'm not one of those that believes it's the ONLY good food out there, I just think people should read for themselves and know the truth about the food.


----------



## rannmiller

We do agree that Nutro is not the worst food out there, it is mentioned serveral times in this thread and on this forum. However, their meat sources are of questionable quality, and there have been many reported cases of animals becoming ill and dying from it after being switched to Nutro. 

My lab mix was on Purina dog chow for until she was 4 years old until I switched her to Canidae, then Nutro Ultra. On neither of the first two foods did she have digestive upset. After the first month or so of being on Ultra she started getting bloated and acting very strange. I switched her to Wellness Core and she was fine again. Now she's on raw and couldn't be better.

My brother took almost two weeks to switch his lab over to Nutro Max and the dog started vomiting twice a day, every day. They switched him off and the vomiting has now decreased to once a month at the most. 

My friend's small dog is on Nutro and has been for a year now and has random bouts of vomiting or diarrhea every month or so. The ony way she's found to curb this is adding yogurt to his food. 

Nutro doesn't use by-products, which is great, or corn in MOST of their foods (corn gluten meal is still pretty questionable) but it's also a very grain-heavy food and not the best food out there at the price it sells for. 

Like you said, some dogs can handle Nutro just fine, but others can't and have reactions that should be a cause for concern.


----------



## domari

I have one dog that doesn't do well on Nutro, but he doesn't tolerate a lot of food so I can't blame the Nutro for his stomach issues. He had problems before the Nutro and after. He spent three months in the shelter where they only fed the dogs Purina, and who knows what he ate before that, probably Dad's or Old Roy!

I asked the feed store if they had anyone complain about their dogs getting sick on Nutro or returning it, they said no they haven't heard of any problems. Neither has my vet. So I still don't know if this is a food problem or just a random thing going on. It's not like when Diamond had the problem and dogs were getting sick and it made all the headlines.


----------



## BabyHusky

Nutro def isnt the worst pet food out there and maybe you're right Domari...maybe it is just random cases. But even in our forum, there are many accounts of pets being sick off of it whether it be our own or someone we know. I had my cat on Nutro when I first got him and quickly switched to Wellness after he was vomiting frequently. 

Boston...I'm glad that you have had no problems and hope that you never do. This forum is just here so everyone can share their experiences and what they have heard about different pet foods. We're not shunning anyone for feeding Nutro, we're just informing and people can make their own decision. 

As for googling any pet food and finding negative reactions, yes...you are correct. But there is far more of Nutro than lets say naturapet foods, natural balance, wellness, etc. Many people still feed Pedigree and their dogs are fine along with other lower grade food. If nothings happened to those people and their pets, i'm sure the food is good, correct? 

My observation after reading everyones post about Nutro is that many people seem to have issues, so why risk it. Why wait until something happens. But once again, this is all merely opinion and everyone has the right to choose whatever food they prefer. There is no right or wrong, its up to us on how healthy our pets are. I love my dogs and cat more than anything, and I would want all opinions about the food I feed them.


----------



## lulusmom

Any dog with food allergies or digestive problems would probably be miserable on Nutro as it is mostly grains and other low quality fillers.


----------



## Crzy4Bostons

Nutro has no fillers!!!! Nutro uses rice for carbs, as dogs need them included in their food for energy and it's very digestible, as for corn gluten, why is it questionable to people. It's used for additional protein, very digestible, it's a natural amino acid thats beneficial to the skin/coat and it aids in the digestion process if you are referring to some of these ingredients. As I said before, everything Nutro puts in it's food serves a purpose, research all of their ingredients and you will find reasons why they are beneficial to dogs/cats. Again, it's not going to agree with every single dog or cat and there could be one single ingredient that Nutro puts in it's food that doesn't sit well with an animal. The food does have very digestible ingredients. The company has been around over 80 years and has the #1 selling Lamb & Rice formula in America!!!


----------



## domari

lulusmom said:


> Any dog with food allergies or digestive problems would probably be miserable on Nutro as it is mostly grains and other low quality fillers.


The only thing I see in here considered to be a grain is the rice. What's in here that's supposed to be making dogs sick??

Nutro Lamb and Rice:
Lamb Meal, Ground Rice, Rice Flour, Rice Bran, Poultry Fat (preserved with mixed Tocopherols, a source of Vitamin E), Natural Flavors, Soybean Oil (preserved with mixed Tocopherols, a source of Vitamin E), Sunflower Oil (preserved with mixed Tocopherols, a source of Vitamin E), Whole Brown Rice, Dried Egg Product, Dried Plain Beet Pulp, Potassium Chloride, L-Lysine, Dried Kelp, Choline Chloride, Zinc Sulfate, Vitamin E Supplement, Taurine, Ferrous Sulfate, Ascorbic Acid (source of Vitamin C), Biotin, Copper Proteinate, Niacin, Manganous Oxide, Calcium Pantothenate, Vitamin B12 Supplement, Riboflavin Supplement (source of Vitamin B2), Vitamin A Supplement, Glucosamine Hydrochloride, Chondroitin Sulfate, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride (source of Vitamin B6), Thiamine Mononitrate (source of Vitamin B1), Vitamin D3 Supplement, Menadione Sodium Bisulfite Complex (source of Vitamin K activity), Calcium Iodate, Folic Acid.


----------



## rannmiller

I think it's the questionable quality of their protein sources and the fact that ground rice + rice bran + rice flour + whole brown rice = rice as the heaviest ingredient in the food. 
I've also heard that beet pulp is supposed to be a filler. 
Dogs just don't need that much grain as the main component of their diet. Dogs don't need many carbohydrates at all actually, but that's another argument.


----------



## Crzy4Bostons

The meat is the main ingredient in Nutro. The first ingredient in dog food is what makes up a majority of the food (which most know should be a meat source). So as with Nutro, Lamb Meal is first, so it's NOT a mojority of grains. Beet Pulp is NOT a filler it's a fiber source and firms stools!


----------



## rannmiller

It's actually the first ingredients before the poultry fat that make up the bulk of the food. Yes the first ingredient is lamb meal, but then it's closely followed by three rice grain fragments. Which is a clever and sneaky way for the company to use more grains than meat without having to list it as such on the label.


----------



## Crzy4Bostons

Again, the first ingredient (Lamb Meal) is what it consist mostly of. Dogs need a proportion of fiber sources and carbs. for energy, these ingredients are a DIGESTIBLE way for dogs to get them. If they didn't serve a purpose, then they WOULD be a filler, in this case, they serve a purpose. Foods are guaranteed to have the amount of each ingredient that is listed on the bag, that is why AFFCO regulates foods. There is nothing sneaky about Nutro, they work with vets in their food developing and are vet recommended.


----------



## rannmiller

Eukanuba also claims "no fillers" in their food, yet uses two different corn sources in their foods (corn meal and corn grits). Do you also believe them? 

Hills (Science Diet) also works with vets to make a food that is veterinarian recommended, yet their ingredients are all corn, soybean meal and by-products. Does that still make it good? 

Now back to the argument of lamb being the first ingredient. I can't deny that it's the first listed ingredient and that's great, but that also means the ingredients are listed in descending order of weight. 

So let's say as an example in a 5 lbs bag: Lamb meal is 2 lbs of it, ground rice is 1 lb, rice flour is .75 lb, and rice bran is .5 lb, the rest is .75 lbs. The rice content is still heavier than the lamb content. This is just a rough example of how even though each fragment may way less than the lamb meal individually, in the end it still makes up a larger portion of the food.

And I'm not the only one who believes this either: http://www.dogfoodanalysis.com/dog_food_reviews/showproduct.php/product/16/sort/2/cat/all/page/6


----------



## rannmiller

And if we only look at the first ingredient in a dog food to determine its quality, then Iams with "chicken" as the first ingredient would be a great food, along with many others. It's usually the first five ingredients that count for the most.


----------



## Crzy4Bostons

I'm not a fan of corn its hardest to digest for dogs and Science Diet, Iams, and Eukaneuba use corn. If you ask vets why, it is because to get that corn gleuten for pretein, it's otherwise useless to dog and it poops the rest out. Claiming just chicken is good like you say in Iams vs. chicken by-product, which I believe if you read down the line in Iams it list Poulty by-product, however, chicken meals are better to have in a dogs diet. Yes, they are all recommended by vets and vets are paid to do so by those companies, but rice, rice bran, beet pulp and all others that were mentioned all serve a purpose for the fiber/carbs. and are easiest to digest.


----------



## rannmiller

Actually, if you ask vets why corn is in dog food, they'll probably tell you "it's a good source of antioxidants and omega 3 and 6 fatty acids which are important for a healthy skin and coat condition."

Just because something is veterinarian recommended doesn't always make it a good product. Veterinarians aren't nutritionists. Find a food that is developed and recommended by an animal nutritionist, and you've probably found a much higher quality product than anything just "veterinarian recommended" as far as food goes. 

If Nutro is paying veterinarians (not to be confused with nutritionists) to help them develop and recommend their product, then how is that different than what Iams, Purina and Science Diet do? 

Again, no one said Nutro is the worst food out there, simply that it is grain-heavy (which it is if the bulk of the food after the first ingredient is mostly grains and fiber) and their sources for protein are questionable. They don't guarantee ethoxyquin-free protein sources, or that the meat wasn't of the Three D's (dead, diseased, dying).

Plus, my own experience of seeing at least 3 dogs in my life get sick from Nutro makes me think twice about its quality. Personal choice, personal preference.


----------



## BabyHusky

Once again, I agree with Rann. We are not saying that you should not feed your pets Nutro, Boston.

Rann and I, along with a few other members, have had pets and known pets to have gotten sick off of Nutro. Of course, we aren't scientists or nutritionists so maybe it was a coincidence that all the dogs and cats got sick off of something else. Either way, this thread seems to be going no where. We obviously are not going to see eye to eye. We will continue to feed our pets the highest quality kibble or raw diet, and you will continue to feed Nutro. Theres no wrong in it, just preference.

I hope Rann made sense to you when she described the example of why Nutro is grain heavy. Lamb may be the main ingredient, but add the different types of grain together and they will most likely outweigh the meat.


----------



## Crzy4Bostons

Look, I understand what everyone is saying, you may think I don't, lol. It may even seem like I'm being stubborn. I know you guys aren't saying Nutro is a terrible food, my thing was to just get the link that started this chat cleared up by having people go to Nutroproducts.com and read the article. It's terrible that animals got upset from the food if it was the cause. What I was getting at with the grains you see in Nutro is it may not be multiple ingredients just a part of the grain for example, if you see whole ground yellow corn, you see corn gluten follow because it's the protein found in the ground yellow corn, does that make sense? So when you see a grain, things that follow may just be a part of that grain. It just looks like a whole list of them. I have asked my vet, and that was his reasoning for corn, but just may be opinion. I agree that vets can suggest foods that aren't the greatest. There are hundreds of pet foods out there and everyone is going to have their preference. As long as our pets are healthy and happy right?


----------



## BabyHusky

Bottom line...yep!!!

Different foods agree with different dogs, so whatever works and keeps them happy and healthy!!!!


----------



## LoveNewfies

Crzy4Bostons said:


> What I was getting at with the grains you see in Nutro is it may not be multiple ingredients just a part of the grain for example, if you see whole ground yellow corn, you see corn gluten follow because it's the protein found in the ground yellow corn, does that make sense? So when you see a grain, things that follow may just be a part of that grain. It just looks like a whole list of them.


It is a whole list of them. Pet food manufacturers put the list of ingredients in order based upon the weight of each ingredient used. If a food lists corn, then lists corn gluten, they are, in fact, two separate ingredients. Rice, brown rice, rice hulls, rice bran....all separate ingredients even when listed one right after the other. They are not listed one right after the other because they are part of one another, they are, indeed, separately added ingredients. Unfortunately, many manufacturers do this so that they can place the meat or meat meal on the top of the list. A food can contain 10% corn, 10% corn gluten, 10% rice, 10% brewers rice, 10% brown rice, 10% pearled barley, 10% pea protein and 10.5% meat. That 10.5% meat will end up on the top of the ingredients list even though that food would clearly be very light on the meat and very heavy on the carbs. 

Keep in mind, too, that the protein percentage listed on the packaging is not entirely meat derived. Rice, etc. do contribute to the total protein. So, when you have a food that lists that many carbs, you can be certain the food is, indeed, quite carb heavy and not enough protein in the food comes from meat sources.

As far as the comments about the corn, it doesn't really matter what it contributes to the food, it is a very unnatural and unnecessary ingredient in pet food. Why have proteins and omegas come from corn when the same can be provided by meat, the most natural form of protein, energy, etc. for dogs?


----------



## rannmiller

Thank you so much! That is exactly what I was trying to say! I even tried to exemplify by weight comparisons, etc. They don't list it because that's what's in the grain, they list it because they use each part of the grain in different weights. 
Bien sur, if it was as Crzy4bostons said, they'd be listing out each part of the chicken they use too. 

I had given up trying to explain and repeat myself so thank you for saying it clearer than I did.


----------



## LoveNewfies

You're welcome. 

It can all be very confusing.


----------



## Oz'sMommy

oz was eating nutro when he got deathly ill at 8 weeks old. i'm not saying it's the food though, who knows what it was. my sister feed her two dogs a lhasa/tzu mix and a lhasa/tzu/pom mix nutro for a good year. the older dog would vomit every day and have runny stools. she finally started refusing to eat so they switched foods. in the meantime the younger dog would eat her share and then the older dogs food that she left behind. she was never sick a day in her life from it. unfortunately my sister changed them to kibbles n bits which in my opinion is like feeding your kid captain crunch every morning and night but hey that's just me. HOWEVER, both dogs are thriving on it. the older dog started eating again, is back to a healthy weight, no more vomiting or messy stools. and the younger dog still eats like a horse, i swear for a 6 pound dog she eats like she's a 50 pound dog, lol.

like others have said. it really just depends on each dog sometimes.


----------



## rannmiller

Thriving on Kibbles n Bits? I never thought I'd hear that!


----------



## Oz'sMommy

rannmiller said:


> Thriving on Kibbles n Bits? I never thought I'd hear that!


yeah but they've never been happier.

but i guess most kids you feed mcdonald's everyday would be just as happy, lol.

i've tried convincing her to switch but to no avail. and it's not like they can't afford it. when they hear how much oz's food/treats run me per month i get this look 

but at least they don't have to worry about oz eating out of their bowls. he won't touch the stuff.


----------



## rannmiller

oh good at least Oz is smart enough to stay away. 

Yeah, I have to tell people the McDonalds reference all the time, sometimes they get it, sometimes they order a Big Mac afterwards.


----------



## Rexandbaby

I haven't had a big Mac in years, now I want one!!


----------



## Oz'sMommy

okay now i'm craving a burger. lol

well i think people i tell the mcdonald's thing to for the most part get it. i eat it occasionally but i would never eat it for every meal every day, you know. your body starts to act weird if you do. i tried explaining that to my sis that her dogs may suffer in the long run but you can only do so much.


----------



## Yorkie Mom

So before I read this posting I bought some Nutro dog treats. They have berries in them and are supposed to help combat doggie breath.. they smell great, but do you think the treats are as bad as the food? I just bought them today,so my dogs haven't had more than two treats.. But now I'm worried.


----------



## rannmiller

No I think so long as you stick to their healthy crunch treats or whatever they're called, then those are the only thing to be somewhat trusted in the Nutro line. They do smell good, that's for sure. 

My friend is a Nutro rep and gets so upset when people don't want to feed Nutro anymore once they find out what it's done to other peoples' dogs. She didn't even know about the 4 D's of dog food which is has been rumored that's the type of meat Nutro uses. 

The funniest thing is, there's a guy who works at Pet Supermarket who gets a free bag of Nutro Ultra every month, and he's decided that he'd rather pay for Natural Balance or Blue Buffalo so he doesn't have to worry about the quality. Basically saying: you couldn't _give_ Nutro to him. In my opinion, that's when you should start wondering.


----------



## Yorkie Mom

Wow thats funny that that guy won't even take the free food. He should donate it to the animal shelter, I'm sure they'd use it.

The treats are their 'Natural Choice' and smell wonderful. The lady at the store (the Nutro Representative) got me to look at them. I put the bag on the ground and my dog sniffed it and then sat and put up her paw (that's what they do to get a treat) so I figured I would try them. It was really cute and a bunch of people stopped to watch her give me a high five and I opened the bag and gave her one in the store. I have been watching them closely after reading the earlier posts, and they seem to be just fine.


----------



## rannmiller

Yeah, those crunchy treats are the best of the treats in the Nutro line. It's when you start getting into their chewy treats (propylene glycol anyone?) you should really stay away from. That's really cute that your yorkie did that in the store, I would've definitely stopped to see that. 

But yeah, those treats are mostly rice, berries (or apples or carrots), chicken meal, and molasses I do believe. 

Oh and I definitely agree that the people at Pet Supermarket who aren't taking the free Nutro should be donating it to the animal shelters and rescues that can't afford food. 

I don't have the heart to really tell my friend who's a Nutro rep all the things that are wrong with it. For the most part she already knows about the grains, doesn't really get the problem with "grain-heavy" food, and doesn't mind the whole corn gluten meal thing. She's also managed to shelter herself from all of the complaints Nutro has gotten, even with her own dog. She's just happy they pay her decently, give her free food, and have the Max brand for her to convert grocery brand customers to. All legitimate points I suppose. She almost got in a fight with the SD rep today, oh the drama in the pet food industry!


----------



## rannmiller

Hey just thought I should warn anyone feeding Nutro Natural Choice that they recently changed their formulas (and not for the better, IMO) and didn't even bother to tell their reps about it. They also decreased the size of their large bags by $5 but kept the same price (a common trend in dog food, I've noticed). Anyway, the formulas that have changed are their regular lamb and rice, the chicken rice and oatmeal, and their senior formulas. So if your dogs start getting upset stomachs, at least you'll know why.


----------



## rawfeederr

Wow... ugh... that's horrible! Nutro sucks!


----------



## sganow

Yeah, stay away from Nutro! I don't use Nutro anything. There have just been too many 'coincidences' with dogs that eat Nutro.


----------



## rjc

I have had both my cat and dog on Nutro for years. Great results. Most negative Nutro talk is just a bunch of libel and slander against them based on what people read on CONSUMER websites. Humans get sick, animals/pets get sick. I feel like every time a dog or cat gets sick they want to blame the food. The new Nutro Ultra recipe is phenomenal. It is jam-packed with antioxidant-rich formulas with many fruits and veggies not found in other brands, such as blueberries and pomegranates. Additionally, it has some of the highest levels of Omega-Fatty-Acids on the market--in both the dog and cat food. Both of my animals have shiny, glossy skin and coat. I would not switch their food for anything. I trust Nutro and appreciate their dedication to quality. I've contacted Nutro's consumer affairs number and received extensive information on their pre-testing, manufacturing-testing, and post-testing. I like that they are manufactured in my home-state of Tennessee. I feel comfortable feeding anything Nutro. I just wish that people would communicate with the company before jumping to crazy conclusions after reading an thread posted by a specific consumer with his/her specific situation. Just saying. Regarding cat food, the Natural Choice Ideal Nutrient Balance formula is great. High sky-rocket Omega-Fatty-Acid levels, dramatically reduced litter box odor, natural ingredients, and high protein; my cat LOVES the taste too. She always lets me know when it's feeding time. In closing, get educated the right way, do your own company research (NOT through he-said she-said consumer threads), stop unjustifiably hating on Nutro, give it a try, and you will see amazing results like I have!


----------



## RawFedDogs

rjc said:


> I have had both my cat and dog on Nutro for years. Great results. Most negative Nutro talk is just a bunch of libel and slander against them based on what people read on CONSUMER websites.


Thats just not true. Most of us on this board actually read the ingredients list and nutrient profile. If you did that, you would see that Nutro Ultra is mostly rice. It also has A LOT of useless plant material in it. Looking at the nutrient profile, it is 50% carbohydrates. Dogs and cats don't need carbohydrates in their diet at all. Mine haven't eaten any carbs in over 7 years.



> Humans get sick, animals/pets get sick. I feel like every time a dog or cat gets sick they want to blame the food.


It depends on how they get sick. If they are vomiting or have diarrhea, it is almost always caused by food. I can't remember the last time any of my dogs had diarrhea. Probably well over 5 years.



> The new Nutro Ultra recipe is phenomenal. It is jam-packed with antioxidant-rich formulas with many fruits and veggies not found in other brands, such as blueberries and pomegranates. Additionally, it has some of the highest levels of Omega-Fatty-Acids on the market--in both the dog and cat food.


You believe too much of their marketing hype. Nutro Ultra recipe is very mediocre. Fruits and veggies are fillers. They have no nutritional value to a dog. The Omega Fatty Acid info is more marketing hype. What particular OFA's are they talking about?



> I trust Nutro and appreciate their dedication to quality.


Thats like trusting a used car salesman trying to sell you a clunker.



> I've contacted Nutro's consumer affairs number and received extensive information on their pre-testing, manufacturing-testing, and post-testing.


I bet they made it sound pretty impressive just like their marketing material.



> I just wish that people would communicate with the company before jumping to crazy conclusions after reading an thread posted by a specific consumer with his/her specific situation.


OR simply studying the ingredient list and nutrient profile. Once you understand how to interpet those two things, there is no need to communicate with the company. All the info you need is there.



> Just saying. Regarding cat food, the Natural Choice Ideal Nutrient Balance formula is great. High sky-rocket Omega-Fatty-Acid levels, dramatically reduced litter box odor, natural ingredients, and high protein; my cat LOVES the taste too.


There are no natural ingredients in kibble. All ingredients have been thouroughly "unnaturalized" in the manufacturing process. Ingredients in kibble is the refuse from human food manufacturing plants. If not for dog/cat food these ingredients would be thrown away.



> In closing, get educated the right way, do your own company research (NOT through he-said she-said consumer threads), stop unjustifiably hating on Nutro, give it a try, and you will see amazing results like I have!


I think you should follow your own advice. There is a lot to know about canine nutrition and the manufacturing processes used in the making pet foods. Study the dietary needs of dogs & cats. Learn where the ingredients in kibble comes from. You don't educate yourself by calling a company and listening to their sales pitch.


----------



## wags

I have heard nothing but negative about Nutro products! I would saty away form that brand! I liked when a rep treid to talk to me about the product at petco and how well her dogs were doing on this brand and I looked at her and told her good luck with it~ its like playing russian roulette with that brand then! I walked away!:wink:


----------



## rannmiller

Boy oh boy where to begin? First off, thanks for reigniting this thread, I've learned even more terrible things about Nutro since it was last posted on here and I was just gonna leave it alone because everyone on here already knows how awful it is so posting such things would be redundant. But here's a new person to share my knowledge with so yay! 

I used to work for Nutro. My dog got sick off of it. After a month or two on the food (you know, after it gets fully integrated into their system) my dog started getting bloated, getting foam around her mouth, licking the carpet, eating everything in sight (like receipts on the floor, etc.). The vet put her on some steroids and told me to feed half Ultra, half rice. My dog got better while on this treatment but went right back to being sick as soon as it was over. I switched her food to Wellness Core and lo and behold she got better. Coincidence? I think not. 

My brother's gf switched her labrador retriever (slowly) from Kirkland food to Nutro Max thinking it was a better quality food for him. He started vomiting once or twice a day for several weeks until she switched him back to Kirkland brand and he stopped vomiting. Another coincidence? Suuuuure. 

My mom's cat had always been a very healthy, happy, chubby cat. Switched him to Nutro Natural Choice Indoor Complete Care and about 6 months later he was in severe renal (kidney) failure and died about 6 months after that. One more coincidence, of course. 

Two cats at the clinic I work at now had been fed Nutro for a while and then got violently ill off of it. One of them took weeks to recover and is only just now getting better. Their owners switched their food to Nature's Variety Instinct, and the cats are magically doing better and recovering. Just another coincidence I'm sure. 

I know of at least 8 people personally who have switched their pets to Nutro and their pets have gotten horribly sick off of it. That doesn't include all the random strangers who told me about it weekly. 

I had at least 2 complaints per week from customers about how the food had made their dogs or cats sick and they would never feed or trust it again. Heck, I wasn't even feeding it to my dogs anymore. 

After I started doing more research on the brands and ingredients and shortly after joining this forum and educating myself rather than listening to the loads of garbage that Nutro was telling me, I could no longer live with myself knowing that I was recommending a product that was making people's animals horribly ill. It wasn't even worth the paycheck anymore. They were giving me vouchers for food and I was giving them away to desperate rescues (probably very mean of me since it probably made their animals sick as well and cost them more money in vet bills than anything else). So literally, Nutro couldn't _pay_ me to feed their food to my pets anymore. And if I can't recommend it for my own pets, I sure as heck couldn't recommend it for other peoples'. 

Heck even my friend who's a Nutro rep, her mom feeds stray cats and used to feed them Nutro Max but all the cats kept getting sick. Switched them to Kirkland brand and they got better too. Weird!


----------



## rannmiller

So why is Nutro so bad? Well first off they use a ton of grain fragments to trick their customers into thinking there's more meat in the food than there actually is. For example: Chicken Meal, *Whole Brown Rice*, *Ground Rice,* *Rice Bran,* Chicken, Lamb Meal, Salmon Meal, Chicken Fat. Those are the first several ingredients in Nutro Ultra Adult food copied directly from Nutro's website. You have three different forms of rice right after the chicken meal, do you really think there's more chicken than rice in that food? 

Now this one was taken off their website too, but it's lying to you because if you look at the actual bags of their food, it actually lists "lamb" rather than "lamb meal" as the first ingredient. So swap those two and it will be what it actually is: Lamb Meal, *Ground Rice, **Whole Brown Rice, Rice Bran, Rice Flour*, Pea Protein, Lamb, Poultry Fat. This means that there are FOUR different types of rice grain fragments in the first several ingredients. Dog food companies do this to make it look like there's more meat in the food than there actually is. And since we all know that just a straight meat source such as "lamb" rather than "lamb meal" is about 70% water inclusive, there's even LESS lamb in this formula than they're misleading you to believe. Good thing they also recently did this to the formulas without telling anyone, added the pea fiber without telling anyone (this includes their reps btw), lowered the size of the bag by 5 lbs and jacked up the price about $5 - $10 per bag. This way, dogs are more likely to get sick from the quick switch and people are paying more for less of it. What a fantastic company! 

Second, they use a bunch of wheat and glutens in their food. Both of these can cause allergic reactions in dogs and it is glutens which help greatly contribute to kidney failure in dogs and cats. So feed this for life and you're almost guaranteed a renal failure pet. Heck, I don't know why anyone pays so much for and believes so highly in their Natural Choice Complete Care Indoor line for cats when the second ingredients in there is corn gluten meal. What a low quality garbage, renal failure-causing filler to add for such a "high quality and trustworthy" company. 

Third, they add menadione sodium bisulfite to their food as a Vitamin K3 synthesizer which can lead to cytotoxicity of your dog's organs (The Dog Food Project - Menadione (Vitamin K3)). This has been banned for use in human food by the FDA for HUMANS who are usually far larger than our pets. Yet it's still allowed and used in some pet foods. Who adds this? Nutro, Purina, and Nature's Recipe are the three brands I've found so far. So you're literally feeding your pets poison every time you feed them Nutro (or either of those other two brands, to be fair). 

Fourth, they add powdered cellulose to their cat food for hairball control but this is literally sawdust. So you're paying to feed your cat sawdust. Wow, good choice. Maybe it's pine and that's why their litter box doesn't smell as bad. I can tell you right now that after switching my cats to raw food, I don't ever smell when they take a number two in the litter box. It's fantastic. Its not reduced litter box odor, its nonexistent litter box odor. And I can almost guarantee you my kittens who I started on raw won't be suffering from renal failure either. 

Fifth, I love how they now added corn gluten meal to their Ultra puppy formula in addition to both of their Ultra large breed formulas it was already in. As if their food wasn't awful enough. Now you literally can't feed your puppy Nutro Ultra without feeding it corn gluten meal as well. Why would such a reputable company do that? 

Sixth, they were the worst company ever to work for. Their management was a joke, their payroll department was completely incompetent, and they treat their employees like trash while jerking them around about everything, guilt-tripping them for doing any outside research, and they're one of the lowest paying companies in the industry.


----------



## DaneMama

^^^ Well said...your fingers tired now?


----------



## RawFedDogs

Don't hold back. Go ahead and say what you mean. :biggrin:


----------



## rannmiller

rjc said:


> Most negative Nutro talk is just a bunch of libel and slander against them based on what people read on CONSUMER websites.


Well yeah, that's because CONSUMERS are the ones who are going to be the most honest and open with you about what's going on with their pets and their experiences with a product. This is also why I read consumer reviews of a product on amazon.com before I buy it too. I want to know what the people who actually use it think of it, duh. 



rjc said:


> I just wish that people would communicate with the company before jumping to crazy conclusions after reading an thread posted by a specific consumer with his/her specific situation. Just saying.


I agree wholeheartedly that it's important to inform a company that they're poisoning your and other peoples' pets. Unfortunately, most of the time the company doesn't care what you have to tell them about it. They'll sweep it under the carpet and either ignore you or give you vouchers for more of their poison err - I mean food - until you go away and leave them alone. This is exactly why consumer websites are so important and why it is so important for people to do their research on products before purchasing them.


----------



## rjc

All people can do is go with what they feel comfortable doing. I responded to this thread, because I want people to hear my pets' positive story after having eaten Nutro, especially after seeing that some people's decision to not try Nutro are made solely on the negativity that they've read from specific cases. After calling other companies for product information, I felt most comfortable with Nutro. I wouldn't feed my dog/cat anything I didn't feel comfortable purchasing for them. So do not dare suggest that your way is the only way/the best. Nutro is an amazing food. And the Ultra formula has great results. It does contain grains, but both my dog and cat did absolutely horrible on grain-free diets. So congratulations on feeding raw/grain-free diets, but they do not work for all animals, like my own. I'm happy you've found something that you feel comfortable feeding your animals. Awesome! But I am super happy with Nutro products. I wouldn't dare tell a friend about the products if I thought they were dangerous/had no benefits.


----------



## BabyHusky

we appreciate your story and I'm sure that Nutro does work for many people or they would not still be in business. our forums are in no way bashing brands, etc but the majority of us are health conscience for our pets. Scientifically, there are things that are bad for us and good. I'm happy that your pets are doing wonderfully on Nutro but all Rannmiller is stating is facts...she is not stating her way is the only/best way. My pets have gotten sick in the past on Nutro which is why I stopped purchasing it and began research on other brands.

There are parents that feed their kids McDonalds and all sorts of junk food. A lot of those kids grow up fine but there will always be those that are unhealthy, overweight, etc. Most of us here just figure, "why take the chance and hope we're a lucky one?" We just go for the food with the best ingredients.


----------



## rjc

I can appreciate that. However, I wouldn't exactly equate Nutro to McDonald's. It's naturally preserved, high Omegas, great quality. Not exactly your Mickey D's Happy Meal.


----------



## DaneMama

rjc said:


> I can appreciate that. However, I wouldn't exactly equate Nutro to McDonald's. It's naturally preserved, high Omegas, great quality. Not exactly your Mickey D's Happy Meal.


But isn't food that's NOT preserved in any way better?


----------



## BabyHusky

i suppose we will jsut have to agree to disagree.

As Rann pointed out by listing the ingredients, Nutro has a lot of rice. I know many people feel that dogs are omnivores and I won't get into that debate BUT even those that say dogs are omnivores will admit that if you had to choose carnivore or vegetarian, dogs are carnivores. So why would you feed a carnivore a diet that is not mostly if not all meat?


----------



## rjc

BabyHusky said:


> i suppose we will jsut have to agree to disagree.
> 
> As Rann pointed out by listing the ingredients, Nutro has a lot of rice. I know many people feel that dogs are omnivores and I won't get into that debate BUT even those that say dogs are omnivores will admit that if you had to choose carnivore or vegetarian, dogs are carnivores. So why would you feed a carnivore a diet that is not mostly if not all meat?


In my opinion and from what I've researched, dogs are omnivores; however, like you said we must agree to disagree. I think natural preservatives are great, they provide a source of Vitamin E. My concern is with BHT and other harmful artificial preservatives. And I don't think it's fair to just make us choose between a carnivorous or vegetarian diet, because that's just not the case with what's available with products in pet stores. I think vegetarian diets are a little strange, and personally don't think any dog thrives on them. As I said, grain-free diets did not work for either of my animals (I did try them, because I originally liked the idea). I tried Blue Wilderness and Evo. I gradually transitioned their food, over 2 weeks time. My cat had very runny stools/diarrhea, wiped her mess on the carpet, and her litter box smell was atrocious. Absolutely horrible experience that I will never consider doing again. So, regarding the rice in products like Nutro, I think it's just fine. My pets' stomachs are thanking me for switching their food back.


----------



## rannmiller

Well I'm glad Nutro isn't poisoning your animals like it is others, but like I said, I have way too much experience with them to call it a safe food or a good company. And for this reason, I would also never recommend it to a friend. 

But sincerely, I am happy it's working for your pets. Sometimes grain-free is too rich for some animals, especially if you feed the same amounts of it as a grain-full food. Did you ever try raw? Just curious


----------



## rjc

I'm a college student with limited funds. I'm happy if I can buy chicken or beef for myself, much less my animals. I am truly sorry about your Nutro experiences. However, I'll continue to recommend it to anyone since it hasn't "poisoned" my animals or any other friend's/family member's animals who eat it as well.


----------



## DaneMama

rjc said:


> I'm a college student with limited funds. I'm happy if I can buy chicken or beef for myself, much less my animals. I am truly sorry about your Nutro experiences. However, I'll continue to recommend it to anyone since it hasn't "poisoned" my animals or any other friend's/family member's animals who eat it as well.


Shouldn't you care more about what your animals eat, considering they have NO choice in the matter? They rely completely on what you choose for them...why not pick the best out there? Just plain old curious...

And a raw diet is cheaper than buying Nutro, if you know where to shop. Even still, having them on a species appropriate diet will keep them outta the vets office, which in turns saves big $$$. 

I'm a college student too and I can afford raw for all 5 of my "kids." I eat healthy just like my animals...South Beach Diet FTW!!!


----------



## CorgiPaws

Just throwing this out there, but when I pick a dog food, as I already feel like kibble is innapropriate, but it's my only option right now, I look at more than just ingredients. 
I do not trust Nutro as a company. I do not feel they are reliable. I do not feel that they oversee any bit of manufacturing. 
..just sayin'


----------



## rannmiller

rjc said:


> I'm a college student with limited funds. I'm happy if I can buy chicken or beef for myself, much less my animals.


I am also a college student with limited funds and I have found that feeding prey model raw is far and beyond cheaper than feeding kibble.


----------



## CorgiPaws

rjc said:


> I wouldn't exactly equate Nutro to McDonald's. .


I would. :biggrin:


----------



## rjc

danemama08 said:


> I'm a college student too and I can afford raw for all 5 of my "kids." I eat healthy just like my animals...South Beach Diet FTW!!!


I guess you're just a better human being than I. Congrats! I do care about what I feed my "kids" as well, which is why I feed Nutro.


----------



## DaneMama

rjc said:


> I guess you're just a better human being than I. Congrats! I do care about what I feed my "kids" as well, which is why I feed Nutro.


I don't remember typing that in the slightest...hmmmm...not saying that I'm better than you at all. I don't really like that you are putting words into my mouth. I was basically asking you a question. Thats all. FYI....you can do better than Nutro.


----------



## rjc

danemama08 said:


> Shouldn't you care more about what your animals eat, considering they have NO choice in the matter? They rely completely on what you choose for them...why not pick the best out there? Just plain old curious...


You asked me this question as if I don't care about my animals. You're wrong. Which is why I feed what I think is best/have seen out-of-this-world results: Nutro Ultra. Also, I'm tired of you preaching about raw food in a dry and canned dog food forum. I think the moderator addressed that issue when I mentioned something about feeding Nutro in the raw thread. I think that rule should apply here too. I'm so glad you have the time and money to feed five animals raw ingredients. I don't and I personally don't think it's safe. I'm not debating on raw feeding here on this thread; that should be left for the RAW thread. Regarding dry kibble, I'm beyond satisfied with Nutro Ultra and the Natural Choice cat food. And in my opinion regarding my animals, nothing has worked better.


----------



## rannmiller

Well raw food aside I was extremely dissatisfied if not downright horrified by the results I've seen from Nutro of any variety with my friends' and family's, random strangers', and my own pets. And working for them was a nightmare, too. And I also know several other people who don't/didn't like working for Nutro as well. So again it isn't just me.


----------



## rjc

Okay, I'm truly sorry for your experiences. I on the other hand, know many people satisfied not horrified with Nutro. And I know a Nutro rep who has worked for the company for 5 years and loves it. I guess it depends on different managers in different regions.


----------



## whiteleo

rjc, you have got to be kidding me! Do you not READ or investigate all the recalls that Nutro has had. All the dogs that got REALLY sick from eating their food, you either don't give a s**t about what you feed your dog or you just plain and simple can't read.


----------



## CorgiPaws

Okay, setting raw aside, and setting all the other better kibbles aside, I'll focus on Nutro and Nutro alone.

Lets look at ingredients. This is the first 20 in Nutro Ultra Adult. 

Chicken Meal, *Whole Brown Rice, Ground Rice, Rice Bran,* Chicken, Lamb Meal, Salmon Meal, Chicken Fat (preserved with mixed Tocopherols, a source of Vitamin E), Natural Flavors, Flaxseed, Oatmeal, Dehydrated Alfalfa Meal, *Dried Plain Beet Pulp, Soybean Oil *(preserved with mixed Tocopherols, a source of Vitamin E), Sunflower Oil (preserved with mixed Tocopherols, a source of Vitamin E), Fish Oil (preserved with mixed Tocopherols, a source of Vitamin E), Potassium Chloride, Egg Product, *Tomato Pomace*, Dried Pomegranate, Dried Blueberry

I only put the first twenty because the ingredient list was SO long. A ton of useless crap.
I put in bold a few things to point out. The first ingredient is great, but the combined weight of the next three rice products definately put rice at number 1. Splitting ingredients like that is as easy way for manufacturers to make it look like the protien source is at the top of the list, when in fact it makes up a very minimal portion of the food as a whole.
Bried Beet Pulp and Soybean Oil are both not only common allergens, but entirely inappropriate for any dog. Translation: crap.
Tomato Pomace is a cheap filler, and also commonly causes problems. 

Lets move onto price. For this I can not leave all other kibbles out. 

*Nutro Ultra Adult*- $46.79 for 30lbs according to PetCo website. (lets keep in mind this is generally cheaper than in store. 
Lets compare. Also based on PetCo website. 
*Wellness*-$47.99 for a 30lb bag. MUCH higher quality, only $1 more
*Natural Balance L.I.D.-*$47.99 for a 30lb bag. grain-free, better quality.
I do not have a website for these, so I will base it off of the prices where I work.
*Canidae*- $53 for 44lbs. Much higher quality, MUCH cheaper price. 
*California Natural*- $43 for 30lbs. Still cheaper, still beter quality without all the unnecessary ingredients. 
I would even rather feed my boys Kirkland than Ultra, and it's only $22 for a 40lb bag, CLEARLY much more affordable. 
You're paying a premium food price for a food with rice as the main component. How do you make sense of that? If I were so set against raw, and so set on feeding kibble, I would, in my mind, find the absolute best food I could afford on my budget. The choice based off of that is clearly not Nurto Ultra. If it's truely a money thing, being a college student, there are still better foods for the same price.


Now lets move on to reliability of Nutro as a company. I simply put "nuto" in google search engine and clicked news. Here are the tites in the order they apper. I'll put the first five. 


1. *Diamond Pulls Premium Edge Cat Food from Shelves*
Consumer Affairs - Lisa Wade McCormick - ‎Oct 5, 2009‎
The action comes just days after Nutro Products quietly removed from the market three types of its puppy food because of a production error. ...

2. *Possible foreign bodies in Nutro pet food prompts voluntary withdrawal*
Examiner.com - ‎Oct 1, 2009‎
Nutro Pet Food has issued a voluntary withdrawal of select pet foods due to the possibility of plastic pieces in bags of kibble. There are three specific ...


3. *Dog Food Recall Alert: Another voluntary recall from Nutro *- this ...
Examiner.com - ‎Oct 2, 2009‎
Nutro Products is back in the news and not in a good way. You may recall earlier this year, select dry cat food products were recalled. ...

4.* NUTRO Pulls Some Puppy Food from Shelves*
Consumer Affairs - Lisa Wade McCormick - ‎Sep 30, 2009‎
Nutro Products is pulling some of its puppy food off store shelves because of a production error, ConsumerAffairs.com has learned. ...

5. *Consumer Confidential: Pocketbooks, protection and pups*
Los Angeles Times - ‎Oct 1, 2009‎
Nutro Products is pulling some of its puppy food from store shelves because a worker's hard hat was apparently sucked into the machinery, ...


Have you looked at their history of recalls? Lack of supervision in production? Number of dogs suffering illness or death as a direct result of eating their food? Consumer reports? 
How can you POSSIBLY *trust *this company? How can you have any confidence in their food? How can you fill your dogs bown feeling confident you are not poisoning him or her? I'm sure your pets look great and you feel they're very healthy. I'm sure ll those loyal Nutro customers had the _same thoughts_... right before their babies dropped dead because of this food. 


Looking at ingredients, price, and integrity (or lack thereof) of this dog food, there is no way in Hell I would give this to any of my pets. pretty sure antifreeze has the same results. 


... just sayin'


----------



## DaneMama

rjc said:


> You asked me this question as if I don't care about my animals. You're wrong. Which is why I feed what I think is best/have seen out-of-this-world results: Nutro Ultra. Also, I'm tired of you preaching about raw food in a dry and canned dog food forum. I think the moderator addressed that issue when I mentioned something about feeding Nutro in the raw thread. I think that rule should apply here too. I'm so glad you have the time and money to feed five animals raw ingredients. I don't and I personally don't think it's safe. I'm not debating on raw feeding here on this thread; that should be left for the RAW thread. Regarding dry kibble, I'm beyond satisfied with Nutro Ultra and the Natural Choice cat food. And in my opinion regarding my animals, nothing has worked better.


I'm sorry if you misunderstood what I was saying. I was not preaching at you about RAW. Just merely stating that I can afford it, because it is cheaper than most kibbles out there, including Nutro Ultra, which means you can too, and the excuse of "its too expensive is not valid." I only brought that up because you made the association of a RAW diet being too expensive. Again, not preaching.

If you look back at my posts, you will see that I not once stated "YOU need to feed a RAW diet!!!" Which in my eyes is preaching. If you were interested in it I would then commence with preaching :biggrin:

I have just been stating the facts, thats it.


----------



## whiteleo

You Go Girl!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


----------



## JayJayisme

Wow, that's a pretty hideous ingredient list. Hardly any meat at all, except as meals and some chicken meat. Meals are basically the animal carcass dried and ground up. There is some meat but not a lot, it's mostly bone. There are no organs in meals. The bone is good but it needs the right ratio of meat to go with it. Between all the meals and grains in this food, I wouldn't consider it very high quality food for a canine.

If you add the three rice products up, I'd bet that this would put rice as the number one ingredient. Definitely not good.

FWIW, both Taste of the Wild and Canidae, which both seem to be respected brands here, are manufactured by Diamond. I feed my pups TOTW Pacific Stream (as well as Artemis Fresh Mix) and it's been one of the best foods for them so far (except for the raw meaty bones they get every 2 to 3 days). 

Diamond has received a lot of bad press but I don't know that they are any better or worse than any other pet food company. They all seem a bit slimy to me. :biggrin: But they are one of the biggest, which makes the chances of problems from their products showing up in the marketplace relatively high compared to a lot of other manufacturer's brands. Plus, it makes them a juicy target for the media. I'm not defending them mind you. I just take everything I read and hear in the mainstream media with a grain of salt. Just because the media crucified Diamond doesn't mean there aren't other dog food manufacturers that are just as bad, or worse. 

Still, this Nutro stuff looks like total garbage and Linsey is right, it doesn't look like a very good value at all. Remember that the higher quality the ingredients, the less food your dog will have to eat. So if a higher quality kibble is pound for pound cheaper than a lower quality one, the savings are twofold. One is the straight price per pound and the second is that you will simply use less food.


----------



## EnglishBullTerriers

whiteleo said:


> You Go Girl!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


Cute, very funny! :biggrin:


----------



## rjc

whiteleo said:


> rjc, you have got to be kidding me! Do you not READ or investigate all the recalls that Nutro has had. All the dogs that got REALLY sick from eating their food, you either don't give a s**t about what you feed your dog or you just plain and simple can't read.


I actually can read, and do indeed give a "s**t" about what I feed my animals. Thx for your concern, jerk.


----------



## rjc

I love the ingredients: deal with it. You have issues with rice, I don't: deal with it. 

None of the listed foods have as high Omega-fatty-acid levels as Ultra. My dog's coat has never been healthier or shinier, considering the mess it was in beforehand. Although, you equate its quality and benefits as what you'd get with antifreeze. I do not.

I'm aware of recalls, and I have been aware of them since the big one occurred a few years ago. I realize that production issues happen with all products. Nutro VOLUNTARILY recalled. If you still don't like that, don't buy it. I really could care less what you decide to feed your OWN animals. I love the benefits of Ultra, how it saved my dog's coat, the antioxidants in the food, etc. Sorry, you just aren't going to dissuade me from buying it. Do not insult my intelligence by saying I feed the wrong stuff. You have your opinions and I have mine. You value the absence of certain ingredients, (as do I) however, I also value what's IN Ultra that's NOT found in other foods. Once more, NONE of the suggested brands have the same levels of Omegas as Ultra. That's the only thing the worked for MY dog. Gracias!


----------



## CorgiPaws

rjc said:


> I love the ingredients: deal with it.


No one ever had a problem with you loving it. No one said it is the worst food out there. If you can't handle the opinions of others, perhaps a forum isn't right for you. This is a place to share, discuss, question, challenge, and understand your opinion, as well as others: deal with it.



rjc said:


> You have issues with rice, I don't: deal with it.


I have no issues with rice. I personally love rice. I understand, however, that it holds no nutritional value for my dog, being a carnivore and all, and therefore would never feed him a food consisting of mostly rice. On what planet that is appropriate for a carnivore, I am not sure, but it's definately not this one. 



rjc said:


> None of the listed foods have as high Omega-fatty-acid levels as Ultra. My dog's coat has never been healthier or shinier, considering the mess it was in beforehand.


In light of the growing popularity of holistic premium foods, many crap foods have added omegas to the food, such as Beneful, to improve coat conditions so they appear on the outside to be as healthy as the dogs on good food. While omegas are important, you can' take rice, throw in some omegas and call it good food just because the coat is shiney. If you really want to get down to it, I asked a customer of mine what she was feeding because her dog was absolutely stunning. She feeds Beneful. 
My point is, you can not base the quality of a food on omegas and coat condition alone. There is a lot more to it than that. 




rjc said:


> I realize that production issues happen with all products. Nutro VOLUNTARILY recalled.


Yes, they do happen with all products, but not annually like with Nutro. 
Recalls are voluntary 99.9% of the time. It doesn't make Nutro any better.




rjc said:


> If you still don't like that, don't buy it. I really could care less what you decide to feed your OWN animals.


I absolutely will not buy it for my babies. I know better. 



rjc said:


> I love the benefits of Ultra, how it saved my dog's coat, the antioxidants in the food, etc.


Again, you can't put some fish oil on top of rice and call it perfect, just because their coat is healthy. what about what's going on on the inside? what about all the sick and dead animals this food is to blame for?



rjc said:


> Sorry, you just aren't going to dissuade me from buying it. Do not insult my intelligence by saying I feed the wrong stuff. You have your opinions and I have mine.


No one is trying to convince you to not feed Nutro. There are worse things you could be feeding. We're simply sharing our educated opinions, which is what this forum is for: deal with it. No one insulted you. I personally can't wrap my mind around anyone deciding to feed this food.


----------



## jdatwood

rjc said:


> None of the listed foods have as high Omega-fatty-acid levels as Ultra.


So you're going to feed bad food because it's high in Omegas? Wouldn't it be easier to feed a higher quality food and supplement Omegas?



rjc said:


> \ I also value what's IN Ultra that's NOT found in other foods. Once more, NONE of the suggested brands have the same levels of Omegas as Ultra. That's the only thing the worked for MY dog. Gracias!


Ok, I'm curious. What do you like that's IN Ultra??  (besides Omegas)


----------



## EnglishBullTerriers

rjc said:


> I love the ingredients: deal with it. You have issues with rice, I don't: deal with it.
> 
> None of the listed foods have as high Omega-fatty-acid levels as Ultra. My dog's coat has never been healthier or shinier, considering the mess it was in beforehand. Although, you equate its quality and benefits as what you'd get with antifreeze. I do not.
> 
> I'm aware of recalls, and I have been aware of them since the big one occurred a few years ago. I realize that production issues happen with all products. Nutro VOLUNTARILY recalled. If you still don't like that, don't buy it. I really could care less what you decide to feed your OWN animals. I love the benefits of Ultra, how it saved my dog's coat, the antioxidants in the food, etc. Sorry, you just aren't going to dissuade me from buying it. Do not insult my intelligence by saying I feed the wrong stuff. You have your opinions and I have mine. You value the absence of certain ingredients, (as do I) however, I also value what's IN Ultra that's NOT found in other foods. Once more, NONE of the suggested brands have the same levels of Omegas as Ultra. That's the only thing the worked for MY dog. Gracias!


Ok, now I have to say that if you are only feeding your dog that food because on ONE ingredient, you are not looking at the whole picture. You are dismissing everyone for being wrong because you like ONE ingredient in the list of ALL of them. If you want more Omegas in your dogs diet, go to your local store and get some Omega capsuls and put it on your dogs food. 
Another thing, if you are not open to opinions and the thoughts of other people, maybe you shouldn't be here. You can't just log into a chat site and tell everyone that they are jerks because they are trying to tell you what they have learned. You can ask questions, post replies, and give advice. But you cant accept that everyone is wrong and write them off. I didn't see anything about anyone saying that you HAD to feed raw or any other kibble. I have only seen people ask why you would like something that clearly has known ingredients that cause a lot of issues in dogs and then you act like they attacked you. This thread was started over a year ago and you started it back up with how it 'saved your dogs hair'! What about his liver, kidneys, heart, intestines, joints, longevity of life? Yes, he might be ok for now, but how long will that last? That is all everyone is saying. Not that you were a bad owner or anything!


----------



## DaneMama

rjc said:


> I love the ingredients: deal with it. You have issues with rice, I don't: deal with it.
> 
> None of the listed foods have as high Omega-fatty-acid levels as Ultra. My dog's coat has never been healthier or shinier, considering the mess it was in beforehand. Although, you equate its quality and benefits as what you'd get with antifreeze. I do not.
> 
> I'm aware of recalls, and I have been aware of them since the big one occurred a few years ago. I realize that production issues happen with all products. Nutro VOLUNTARILY recalled. If you still don't like that, don't buy it. I really could care less what you decide to feed your OWN animals. I love the benefits of Ultra, how it saved my dog's coat, the antioxidants in the food, etc. Sorry, you just aren't going to dissuade me from buying it. Do not insult my intelligence by saying I feed the wrong stuff. You have your opinions and I have mine. You value the absence of certain ingredients, (as do I) however, I also value what's IN Ultra that's NOT found in other foods. Once more, NONE of the suggested brands have the same levels of Omegas as Ultra. That's the only thing the worked for MY dog. Gracias!


So...what were your thoughts when they had their recalls? Were you concerned about the welfare of your dog from eating their food? Do you really feel that its safe now? And how are you for sure...just cuz they say so?

I don't think that you should take what people are telling you as an insult to your knowledge...more as a suggestion that you look into something better, thats all.

Other than Ultra having antioxidants and omega 3's in the food...what specifically do you like about it? FYI you can get antioxidants AND omega 3's in their NATURAL state from whole fresh foods...(again, not pushing RAW....just stating that Nutro isn't the only place where you can find these miracle workers) :biggrin:

And to be 100% honest...Ultra has nothing in it that you can't find somewhere else that is a better source.

I think that maybe you should take into consideration that you are the only one here that thinks its great and everyone is asking you to take a step back and digest what people are telling you. We are only doing this to better YOUR knowledge and hopefully your dog's health.


----------



## DaneMama

And yet another recall from Nutro...will it ever end???

Pet Connection Blog Nutro recalls puppy food that may contain melted plastic


----------



## rjc

*I'm done arguing*

I'm no longer participating in this forum. There are countless things I love about Nutro Ultra. And since I voiced my opinion, I've been attacked. Really just not interested in continuing any conversation with people who can't value a person's opinion for what it is. So go ahead, respond to this comment, and continue your campaign for raw foods/foods that are in your opinion better than Nutro. Enjoy, but you'll get no response from me.


----------



## Whiskey's Momma

Sorry that you feel that way. We had our Sheltie on Natural choice and he died at old age but he had tons of problems, bad skin and coat, heart problems. I dont think food is the cause of ALL problems but it can certainly add issues to your dogs health. My current dog suffers from allergies and we took him off. I suppose you have been on Dog Food Analysis - Reviews of kibble and rated nutro most got 2 out of 6. I do not feed raw to my dog, but I feed a better food than nutro. His allergies are getting better but are not completely gone. I don't think you will convince people on this site that Nutro is a good food, especially when the max formula has corn in it. But you can keep feeding your dog(s) what you like. Also why is it so important to you to convince others? Believe me I was heart broken when I found out that Nutro was not a good food......but I got over it and looked for a better product....do you work for Nutro?


----------



## wags

*thats a shame*

Awww thats a shame! No one should be offended by anyones opinions. Alot of things that people say here are though true and found to be reliable! 
We all can't agree with everything ~everyone says this is how we form our own opinions by looking at all the possibilities. sometimes we agree with people sometimes we just dont and we go with it. Hopefully you didn't feel attacked and if you did take it with a grain of salt throw it over your shoulder and be done with it.
You can't let things on a discussion board bother you. Like I said you either can take some ones opinion and go with it or just forget about it!
Not everyone will agree with certain dog food brands or manufactures or even with raw feeding or whatever! Its what you think is best for your dog and what you feel your doing is right for the pups health and well being.
People here are just trying to give information that they find reliable and a good source for you to look at! What they actually know and have heard form reliable sources. If you feel you are doing the best with this food then this is what your going to do no one will change your mind if you are set on this one product. Everyone is just trying to give you facts on what they have heard seen and actually experienced with this food brand.
Recalls are done by regulated sources, and that is facts. 
Most folk want to know what is recalled and what is actually valued by others and I think everyone here is pretty darn honest in what they have found out about dog foods and actually experienced themselves with their dogs on this forum! No one is hear to let anyone down!:wink:


----------



## RawFedDogs

No one is arguing with you. Just correcting your misinformation. Instead of getting all pissy, you should learn from the posts made in your thread. How many people have to tell you something before you stop and think, "maybe, just maybe they are right. Afterall I have no knowledge about the product other than my opinion of what my dogs look like."


----------



## claybuster

You people crack me up. RJC brings up a very good point that this is dry and canned Food Forum. Every person that comes along that has good results with a brand of food, you have to rain on their parade and start bashing. Why don't you keep the raw food chat where it belongs, in that forum or change the name of the board to Raw Dog Food Chat. What is there, 2 feeds that you folks allowed to be discussed here, EVO and Orijen, where that person doesn’t get railroaded out? Anything else you mind as well hit the road, not welcome discussion. Green Dog Admin., you have to step up to the plate as CEO and give a lecture on what good customer service is all about and in these challenging economic times. These guys and girls can't be running people out of town. There is a polite correct way to go about expressing difference of opinion and then there is what is witnessed here, the rude and intolerant approach. And it happens time and time again. Something clearly has gone disarray and needs to be but back on track.


----------



## claybuster

:biggrin: :biggrin: :biggrin:


----------



## whiteleo

Hey I never said one word to rjc about raw food and I get called a jerk, but thats O.K., I'm a big girl and I can take it.........................................................................


----------



## jdatwood

Are you friggin kidding me Claybuster? Up to your normal tactics trying to stir the pot??

Go back and read the posts... here's a good place to start
http://dogfoodchat.com/forum/13536-post118.html


----------



## rannmiller

CB you know that isn't fair, all of us raw feeders tried to tell her about other kibble brands out there that rjc could try as well. We even said several times "raw food aside" or "let's leave raw food out of this" and could continue on telling her what was wrong with the food based on facts, research, and experience, and rjc kept bringing up raw until he/she/it couldn't take it anymore and left because rjc didn't hear what rjc wanted to hear. No one wants to hear that their food is garbage. It's how you receive and process that food that matters. Learn from others, don't join a forum with lots of different people and different opinions and expect everyone to just blindly agree with you. (PS - welcome back!)


----------



## CorgiPaws

CB, did you even read the posts? I get rjc jumping down my throat and getting defensive and not once did I suggest a raw diet, and I mentioned a whole list of kibbles, not ONE of them being Evo OR Orijin, and many of them being ''less accepted'' brands like Canidae. RJC got defensive because he/she could not actually support their case with hard facts. Every single one of us specificly stated that there are definately worse foods out there, but perhaps Nutro isn't trustworthy.

and I just want to throw this out there again:

*A forum is a place for ideas and opinions to be shared, challenged, discussed, questioned, explained, and supported.* All of this can and usually is done in a friendly fashion, and you simply can not take it personal and get angry when others don't agree. That is the beauty of a forum like this. _Lets all keep in mind that we all have opinions, and we will all have our opinions challenged._ That's when you can either support your opinion with facts ("because-i-said-so" is NOT a fact)and turn it into a friendly debate where other people, qust starting their quest to learn more about canine nutrition can read and follow along, and develop their own opinions. OR, you can get defensive, close up, and pout like a little kid, vowing to never return to the forum because of all the big bad people who don't agree with you. 


There is not one single diet that is going to be accepted by every member of the forum. Not one. So, lets drop the subject of RJC and go about our friendly debating and call it good. I firmly believe that no one tried to drive any member off the forum, someone simply had no answers to the questions, and ran off with their tail between their legs. It's a shame people feel the need to take dog food that personal. 
This forum has a lot of members, but you and I both know there's about ten of us who are really active on an almost daily basis. I've enjoyed my time here, and plan on sticking around for a very long time, not only to voice and support my opinion and give advice o those seeking help, but also to post my questions (as I have many regarding my poor mess of a Corgi) and learn from all of the wonderful people here.


----------



## EnglishBullTerriers

I think that this thread needs to be closed, since other then for reading information, there really isn't any reason to keep going on about something that was ended last year. (Or the beginning of this year... I don't remember.) Someone brought up a soar subject that everyone here knows is crap food, and they got upset. I don't see where we need to keep going back and 'reviewing' it!  IMO!!


----------



## claybuster

rannmiller said:


> CB you know that isn't fair, all of us raw feeders tried to tell her about other kibble brands out there that rjc could try as well. We even said several times "raw food aside" or "let's leave raw food out of this" and could continue on telling her what was wrong with the food based on facts, research, and experience, and rjc kept bringing up raw until he/she/it couldn't take it anymore and left because rjc didn't hear what rjc wanted to hear. No one wants to hear that their food is garbage. It's how you receive and process that food that matters. Learn from others, don't join a forum with lots of different people and different opinions and expect everyone to just blindly agree with you. (PS - welcome back!)


You are without question IMO one of the nicest people around, on _any_ board I've visited. If anyone deserves the title of moderator, it should belong to you. BTW, I never left but thanks for the welcome back! I just made a decision not to engage in discussions related to nutrition. It is blatantly obvious anything I have to say in regards to nutrition is not welcome discussion. This is a Raw Food Forum, why bother discussing anything else? That doesn’t mean I'm backing my bags and leaving, I just have nothing to say about raw foods. Hunting season is quickly approaching (next weekend).
Hopefully I can get some more pics and videos together for sharing. There is other stuff to do beside talk nutrition.

I did read through this thread. It seemed to me like the person didn't get testy until the end after being repeatedly bashed by several. Can't really say I blame them for not coming back.

Oh, one last thing in regards to "moderators". I think their role is best served to help facilitate conversation rather than being a constant active participant interjecting their beliefs or opinions. Moderators should be more like referee's, not combatants with other users. They are different roles, and when one takes on the duties of being a moderator, IMO they should do just that, be a moderator, which means take a backseat to the conversation, help facilitate conversation, but not constantly engage in the conversation.

JMHO.


----------



## littleboodog

LPacker79 said:


> I'm not a fan of Nutro at all, though their Ultra formula is decent. However, Nutro has recently been purchased by Purina so I'm not sure if the formulas will change. Currently the Natural Choice line is being repackaged and has been for several months now.


Nutro Products was purchased by Mars in 2007. Changes have been made to all lines--Natural Choice, Max, Ultra, since the purchase.

Natura was recently purchased by Proctor and Gamble. Perhaps you mean to say California Natural, not Natural Choice.


----------

