# a poop question....



## kim79 (Aug 10, 2009)

so I started gizmo on raw this morning and he had chicken pieces, no bone. Now he just went poop and it was runny, lke chocolate syrup (sorry, all I can think of). Is this normal?


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## rannmiller (Jun 27, 2008)

It's normal if you don't add bone. The bone is so important in helping to firm up the poo and provide the calcium so you get the correct calcium-phosphorus ratio. That's why you NEED more bone in the beginning, it's so much easier on the digestive system. Try giving gizmo a very bony piece of meat tonight, like a chicken or turkey wing or chicken backs, and do that for the next several days. His poo should firm up pretty quickly.


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## kim79 (Aug 10, 2009)

I'll try that. Thanks! Hope it works because he really seemed to enjoy the raw chicken.


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## CorgiPaws (Mar 31, 2009)

It is normal consitering he had no bone content. 
Bone is necessary to deliver nutrients, but also as a firming aid. You'll want to feed more bone in the beginning of the transition than you'll need to later on. 
Also be prepared for the dotoxification phase. It is NORMAL for your dog to show incredible improvements when switching to raw, and then after about a week or so have some pretty nasty stools. A lot of people freak out at this stage and give up when in reality this shows why you should go raw. Their bodies adjust to the new, superior diet, and pass all the junk left behind from the commercial diet. If you can stick through those couple days, you'll be doing the best thing possible for your dog.


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## JayJayisme (Aug 2, 2009)

One of my dogs is at this stage, I think. I feed them raw beef ribs about every 2-3 days, supplemented by their Artemis Fresh Mix kibble and an occasional Innova biscuit. 

Two days ago the little male had the "chocolate fudge" poop. I didn't think anything of it at the time, figuring it was part of the adjustment period. Yesterday was raw beef day and all seemed well. I don't think he has eaten since last night when I gave him an Innova biscuit but today I came down to find him relieving himself in the back yard and it was a light colored, mucus covered stool that shot out of him like a cannon. Then an hour later he threw up. It was tan colored, like ground up kibble/biscuits so I figured it was nothing to worry about. Then a little while later, he started throwing up creamy colored mucus. 20 minutes after that, his barf was pink mucus, like it was full of blood. Oh, and there was some blades of grass in it so apparently he ate some to induce vomiting.

His belly has been convulsing all morning and he looks drained but I think the vomiting is over for now. I'll keep a close eye on him today. I don't want to run to the vet just yet. As soon as he hears I've been feeding the dog raw meat, he'll scold me and try to sell me more of the Hill's Prescription Diet, the same crap that brought me to this forum to begin with. But I have to admit, I'm a little worried about him. He looks pretty sad and sickly today, a complete 180 from yesterday. :frown:

My female Shepard-mix, on the other hand, has been eating the raw meat with no issues at all. She loves it and has had tons of energy since I introduced it into her diet.


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## JayJayisme (Aug 2, 2009)

Okay, midday update.

The little guy just had a bowel movement and his stools were runny and full of mucus, but what was really alarming is that they were full of undigested raw beef (and a little grass). It literally looked just like it did going in when I gave him a raw beef rib yesterday morning.

Is this normal? Is he eating too much meat? Will this stop? I don't want to sound paranoid or abandon this raw thing just because I'm freaked out, and again, my other dog is perfectly fine. Just looking for advice. This guy came to us very unhealthy and he seems to be really sensitive when it comes to food, environment, etc. I just want to make sure nothing is unusual or wrong. Thanks.

Jay


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## RawFedDogs (Jun 16, 2008)

I don't know where you are in the raw feeding diet but I know what you are doing is all wrong. The results seem to prove me out. You don't need to supplement a raw diet with any kind of kibble. You are merely dumbing down a good diet when you try that.

Here is how to fix your problem. Fast him for a day. No food of any kind for 24 hours. He can have all the water he wants. He is probably getting dehydrated now. Read my web page listed in my sig. Begin all over with him on a raw diet just as the instructions on my pages say. Begin with chicken. Nothing but chicken for 2 weeks. Backs should be fed the first week and leg quarters and backs alternated the 2nd week. A week on backs should straighten out his tummy pretty quickly. My page will tell you how to progress after that point.

Chicken is much easier to digest and will help him. Beef is a relatively difficult meat to digest and the bones are much more dense than chicken bones. He needs to build up to eating beef ribs. It will be a month or 6 weeks until he is ready for them.

If you have any questions, please ask.


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## JayJayisme (Aug 2, 2009)

Okay, well thanks RFD but as I've stated in the past, feeding them a full raw diet is not an option for me right now. Actually, I should have worded it differently and said I supplement their kibble with raw meat instead of the other way around. Anyway, I've already been through all of this in other threads here before. I don't have the resources or time to do a full raw diet at this time so I was hoping to feed them good quality, high protein kibble most days and supplement that with small raw meaty bones every 2-3 days so the net amount of meat products in their diet is significantly higher than anything else. But for reasons I won't get into here, I need to be able to free-feed them kibble most days.

So I guess what you are saying then, at least for this dog, is that if I can't give him a 100% raw diet that it's a complete waste of time to supplement his kibble with meaty bones? Has anyone been successful with a compromise between the two?

BTW, I've read your site and the others you link to. It's very informative and I understand the process you've outlined but I started them on beef because that is what I have practical access to and they both like it. I never could get the male to eat raw chicken so I got them going on beef. Is it worth trying to get him to eat raw chicken as an occasional supplement to his kibble if that is the best I can do for now? Or should I just skip the raw feeding altogether? Thanks for your help.


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## RawFedDogs (Jun 16, 2008)

JayJayisme said:


> Has anyone been successful with a compromise between the two?
> 
> Yes, many have. I do think you should get them to eat chicken instead of beef and beef bones. You see, when they eat meat all the time, their stomach juices become more acid. Kibble causes the juices to become less acid because of the carbs in it. Beef, being a more "rich" meat should have more acidic stomach juices digesting them. I suspect that is your problem.
> 
> ...


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## JayJayisme (Aug 2, 2009)

Okay, makes sense RFD. I'll take another shot at trying to get him to eat chicken. He's only about 18 lbs., should I give him a whole chicken back or try starting him out with a couple wings? What do you suggest to "dress" up the raw chicken? Should I try the same technique I did with beef where I just barely cooked it (just flash cooked the outside) so they identified with the aroma enough to eat it before I moved them to full raw?

Thanks for your help. BTW, he's doing much better this afternoon/evening. He's been drinking water and he ate a Innova biscuit earlier today. His playfulness came back later this afternoon and he ate some canned food this evening. I think the worst has passed although it will be interesting to see what kind of stools he produces in his next movement.

I'm glad my female isn't quite as sensitive. She has no adverse reaction whatsoever to raw beef ribs and she's as healthy and active as ever.

Jay


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## RawFedDogs (Jun 16, 2008)

JayJayisme said:


> He's only about 18 lbs., should I give him a whole chicken back or try starting him out with a couple wings?


Since my dogs are in the 125 to 155 lb range, I have a difficult time picturing exactly what an 18lb dog is. Feeding the way you are just feeding raw stuff 2 or 3 times a week, I think I would skip the backs and try something like wings or drumsticks or thighs or even a bone in breasts.



> What do you suggest to "dress" up the raw chicken? Should I try the same technique I did with beef where I just barely cooked it (just flash cooked the outside) so they identified with the aroma enough to eat it before I moved them to full raw?


You could try that or you could try something like cheese whiz in some slits you cut in the meat or maybe even some peanut butter. After he gets eating them good, gradually decrease these.



> Thanks for your help. BTW, he's doing much better this afternoon/evening. He's been drinking water and he ate a Innova biscuit earlier today.


Super! :smile:


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## JayJayisme (Aug 2, 2009)

RawFedDogs said:


> Since my dogs are in the 125 to 155 lb range, I have a difficult time picturing exactly what an 18lb dog is.


*LOL* An 18 lb. dog is one that your dogs would choke on! :biggrin:

Yeah, I had a hard time wrapping my brain around this in the beginning too. I've always had "real dogs" in the past but now that I'm living in a urban townhome, and I'm partially disabled (hopefully temporarily) a big dog was out of the question. I got our Shepard-mix female first, expecting her to reach 40 lbs or so, which she has, and which is perfect for our environment. She's just small enough to be able to run around the house and our small yard and have fun but big enough to effortlessly go up and down the stairs in our 3-level home. 

But my wife and her never really hit it off and my wife always wanted a "lap dog" so she ran out and adopted this little Cocker Spaniel/Dachshund mix. I had no idea what to do with him in the beginning either but at the end of the day, dogs are dogs and we've become great buddies.

I walk them 3-4 times a day and I have definitely established myself as the pack leader so there is relative harmony around here. They are both great dogs, I love 'em to death. But yeah, some day I hope to have a "real" dog again. For now though, at least the food bills are manageable! When I need to hang out with a big dog, I walk my neighbor's 150 lb. Rottie.

Here's a shot of them eating their meaty bones a couple days ago (after most of the meat was gone). Thanks again for your help and suggestions.


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## Doc (Jan 17, 2009)

Well, one of mine started on chicken backs, then backs and quarters, then backs, quarters, and turkey necks. Now she will not touch chicken but devourers the turkey necks. I'll add pork spare ribs next or pork shoulder roast. Do that with the chicken for a week or so, then try some fish 2 or 3 times a week. I'm not sure that bitch will ever eat chicken backs and quarters again!


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## rawfeederr (Sep 9, 2009)

Yeah, because he didn't have any bones. He needs about 10% bone in his diet to make his poo firm enough.


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