# Obscene Nutrient Levels



## Shamrockmommy (Sep 10, 2009)

Saw this on another forum, but it's pertinent to the recent discussions we've been having: A Look at Orijen Adult Food, or Why I Should Stop Making Rules If I’m Just Going to Break Them |

This takes a look at the nutrient levels found in Orijen. 

It really only confirms for me that I won't be looking at pretty ingredient panels, or catchy marketing phrases on the bags. I'll be checking nutrient levels. I still need to be educated about zinc:iron ratios, however, that is a new one on me.

It's time for pet food companies to stop marketing the pretty ingredient lists and show us the nutrients provided. 

Thought I'd share


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## RRs (Aug 31, 2011)

Are nutrient levels listed in this format on the labels? Or is there a fair amount of conversions, calculations, and possible assumptions, involved in arriving at the results of that analysis.


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## Shamrockmommy (Sep 10, 2009)

Much of the time you will have to contact the company to ask for the "as fed" percentages. Some foods, like Hills and Purina, put a good chunk of the info on their bags.


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## NutroGeoff (May 15, 2013)

Yeah, I've noticed there aren't many bags with an as fed percentage or anything, and the only ones I've found really only list like calories per cup or something.


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## Taser (Mar 14, 2013)

Fromm, Go, Now, Innova and California Naturals all list their nutrient profiles. That's about all I have found so far. It would be nice if we could come up with a list of foods that actually come somewhat close to having normal profiles.


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## Shamrockmommy (Sep 10, 2009)

Optimal Nutrient Profiles (according to my niece's veterinary textbook)
There are several listings for life stages but I'll go with Adult Maintenance for now. This is a dry-matter percentage:

Protein 15-30, Fat 10-20, Fiber 5 max, Calcium 0.5-1.0, Phosphorus 0.4-0.9, Sodium 0.2-0.4

So you can have a wide range of protein/fat and still have safe mineral levels. 

Foods I know of so far:
Purina One Beyond Chicken or Lamb
Precise Naturals Foundation and Senior
Hills Ideal Balance (all)

These are the foods I'm feeding to my 4 dogs (each is on something different to see how they do) and I am as happy as ever, I can't believe it after all these years thinking Orijen and Acana and Merrick and Nature's Variety, etc were the "best" foods. I have absolutely no complaints, there are NO differences in the dogs at all (unless you count that they no longer have random diarrhea or vomiting). 

I'll poke around and see if I can find any others to add.


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## Jacksons Mom (Jun 13, 2010)

Shamrockmommy said:


> Optimal Nutrient Profiles (according to my niece's veterinary textbook)
> There are several listings for life stages but I'll go with Adult Maintenance for now. This is a dry-matter percentage:
> 
> Protein 15-30, Fat 10-20, Fiber 5 max, Calcium 0.5-1.0, Phosphorus 0.4-0.9, Sodium 0.2-0.4
> ...


I know, sometimes I feel sooo bad for how ignorant I was lol.


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## Dr Dolittle (Aug 2, 2013)

this is the most critical discussion we can have. A diet is nutrients delivered, not ingredients! Love that article! You need to remember the bags will never show you the actual nutrient numbers, just minimums and maximums. As Shamrockmommy said, you have to call the companies to get the actual numbers. A nutritionist would want to know the number in grams or milligrams per 100 kcals but most companies don't even know what that is. the next best accurate way is on a dry matter basis, which means removing the moisture content. Some companies offer that. the most common is the as fed basis so moisture levels could screw with the numbers but just a bit. If a company can't give me at least as fed numbers I would never feed it! the whole industry is based on these fancy ingredients and so ignores the excesses as stated in this article. When we look at all the renal, heart, and other diseases, never mind urinary stones and GI issues, it should be against the law! yet these are the very foods the most loving dedicated pet owners will choose! Some of you guys and gals are getting it though, and I am happy to see that!


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## LProf (Nov 12, 2013)

I am currently feeding my Pug Purina one Beyond with good results. But I am looking for another kibble with which to rotate. I need a lower protein, somewhere around 25%, with the lower nutrient levels Shamrockmommy suggested. The problem I am encountering is that the foods I have found that meet my criteria all contain Flaxseed, for which he has an intolerance.

Any suggestion about kibble I have overlooked will be appreciated.


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## Shamrockmommy (Sep 10, 2009)

That darn flaxseed is in everything! I'll see if I can find anything w/out it.


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## Maxy24 (Mar 5, 2011)

Wanted to give this a bump. Are there any foods with appropriate nutrient profiles that are still high in animal ingredients? I'm still not comfortable feeding foods that are more vegetable/grain than meat.


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## Shamrockmommy (Sep 10, 2009)

I think most of them will have more grain than meat in them... I've been happy with Precise Naturals and Petcurean Now! Grain free, (I had been trying out Purina and Hills Ideal Balance dry and canned for several months and just put them on Precise this week) 

BUT...

I had said earlier that I was happy and saw "no change" in my dogs who were eating Purina and Hills... and they've started to go down hill. Coat is suffering, they are having yeasty skin/ear issues, and they STINK. I bathe/groom my dogs weekly, ears cleaned, nails done, however, I cannot get the dog stench off them, they stink only a couple hours after their bath. I've never had my dogs smell like "dog" before. 

On higher end foods (Fromm) with home cooked toppers, they did not stink, nor did they ever have kidney issues (one dog has had biannual bloodwork since she was 8 and it was always within good values), etc. Once this stuff is gone, I'll be switching back, however, I do like Precise Naturals and Now! grain free enough to continue with that in my rotation. Going back to real food toppers (instead of canned). I'll watch annual bloodwork and adjust as necessary, but I am not pleased with them on the purina or hills, sadly.

Was worth a try. Took about 3 months for them to start falling apart. Echo's coat went from gloriously silky soft and fluffy, to sparse and wiry and she itched all the time. Darby turned back into a miserable yeast ball (ears, face, feet) and her senior dog warts started to grow and ooze foul goop. (giving her vitamin C has really helped her immune system deal with them, and they at least stopped oozing). 

Just my experiences here.


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## LProf (Nov 12, 2013)

I have started feeding Canine Caviar. Moderate protein and lower calcium and phosphorous levels, and no flaxseed. 

I know that there has been some adverse posting on some forums about their customer service, but my Pug seems to be doing good on it. I rotate between the Venison and turkey. 

Other then Purina Beyond, Canine Caviar was the only kibble I could find without flaxseed, and with moderate protein level and low nutrient levels.


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## Shamrockmommy (Sep 10, 2009)

Glad you found another option, Lprof!


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## Maxy24 (Mar 5, 2011)

I was switching my dog's food this past week and REALLY wanted to switch to Canine Caviar. He can be pretty gassy so I liked the single protein, single carb formulation. I was going to buy the Open Sky formula but couldn't afford it. The grain inclusive chicken and pearl millet was affordable but the phosphorus was 1.5%, the grain free was only .8% but too much money, so no canine caviar for Tucker. So we're doing Fromm Gold Small Breed for now, I really wanted something simpler though.


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## LProf (Nov 12, 2013)

Maxy24 said:


> I was switching my dog's food this past week and REALLY wanted to switch to Canine Caviar. He can be pretty gassy so I liked the single protein, single carb formulation. I was going to buy the Open Sky formula but couldn't afford it. The grain inclusive chicken and pearl millet was affordable but the phosphorus was 1.5%, the grain free was only .8% but too much money, so no canine caviar for Tucker. So we're doing Fromm Gold Small Breed for now, I really wanted something simpler though.


Yes, it is expensive, but I am feeding it to a Pug, so a bag lasts quite awhile. I didn't know that Canine Caviar was that much more expensive then a food like Fromm. Interesting.


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## Maxy24 (Mar 5, 2011)

The Fromm I bought was about $13 for 5 pounds, the grain free Canine Caviar was like $22 which I wasn't expecting because the grain inclusive CC was only around $13. We were feeding Taste of the Wild so didn't want anything much more expensive than that.


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## LProf (Nov 12, 2013)

Maxy24 said:


> The Fromm I bought was about $13 for 5 pounds, the grain free Canine Caviar was like $22 which I wasn't expecting because the grain inclusive CC was only around $13. We were feeding Taste of the Wild so didn't want anything much more expensive than that.


I pay $19 for the 5 pound bag. Still a lot more then you paid for the Fromm, but it is a food that works for my Pug, so it is worth it to me.


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## AngelaPrimanti (Feb 24, 2014)

LProf said:


> I pay $19 for the 5 pound bag. Still a lot more then you paid for the Fromm, but it is a food that works for my Pug, so it is worth it to me.


Canine Caviar is a very shady company. I think it just got in trouble for claiming its foods prevent cancer and had to remove it from the website. Does this company make its own food or is it a marketing company?


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## LProf (Nov 12, 2013)

AngelaPrimanti said:


> Canine Caviar is a very shady company. I think it just got in trouble for claiming its foods prevent cancer and had to remove it from the website. Does this company make its own food or is it a marketing company?


I am not going to defend the Company, but they have never claimed that their food prevents cancer. I have just been on their website and it still says that it can help prevent cancer. I agree that is a pretty brash claim. 

They do not manufacture their own food, it is copacked. But, my understanding is that the company that packs it for them is one of the more trustworthy packers.

Frankly, I woud prefer to feed a food that is manufactured by the company itself. But, I have been unable to find a food that fits that criteria, has moderate protein, does not contain flaxseed and has acceptably low calcium and phosphorus levels.

If you can suggest one, that would be great.


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## MollyWoppy (Mar 19, 2010)

I'm not sure what you call moderate protein, but Farmina doesn't have flaxseed (that I've seen), and has very low phosphorus and ash levels. And they make and pack their own foods.


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## LProf (Nov 12, 2013)

MollyWoppy said:


> I'm not sure what you call moderate protein, but Farmina doesn't have flaxseed (that I've seen), and has very low phosphorus and ash levels. And they make and pack their own foods.


I need a protein level of 25% or lower. I feed Farmina AG Cod to one of my dogs, who does great on it, but when I tried it for my Pug twice, he got loose stools. I would love to be able to feed him the Farmina.


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## Foodie (Apr 25, 2010)

LProf said:


> I need a protein level of 25% or lower. I feed Farmina AG Cod to one of my dogs, who does great on it, but when I tried it for my Pug twice, he got loose stools. I would love to be able to feed him the Farmina.


Look at Nature's Logic foods. Don't confuse crude protein with digestible protein. Do you think your Pug is getting loose stools from higher protein foods? This thinking is erroneous, too high a fat level or an ingredient(s) intolerance are usually to blame unless your dog has a medical issue. Are your dogs puppies? Why the need for low calcium and phosphorus? Commercial foods that have a high meat content will usually have a higher calcium and phosphorus level.

Just so you know, I don't recommend one brand or one formula of food to all dogs. Every dog is different, if a dog is having issues then it's worth pursuing specific formulas/ingredients for that dog. There isn't a dog food out there that will work for all dogs.


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## LProf (Nov 12, 2013)

Foodie said:


> Look at Nature's Logic foods. Don't confuse crude protein with digestible protein. Do you think your Pug is getting loose stools from higher protein foods? This thinking is erroneous, too high a fat level or an ingredient(s) intolerance are usually to blame unless your dog has a medical issue. Are your dogs puppies? Why the need for low calcium and phosphorus? Commercial foods that have a high meat content will usually have a higher calcium and phosphorus level.
> 
> Just so you know, I don't recommend one brand or one formula of food to all dogs. Every dog is different, if a dog is having issues then it's worth pursuing specific formulas/ingredients for that dog. There isn't a dog food out there that will work for all dogs.


I know, from long experience with different foods, that higher protein foods cause him to have loose stools. 

He is not a puppy. He is an 8 year old Pug. I also know, from long experience, that he has an intolerance from flaxseed. 

I am not just making assumptions here, but basing it on experience.

I shouldn't have to explain why I would want lower calcium and Phosphorus levels.


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## Foodie (Apr 25, 2010)

No need to get an attitude. In a normal dog high protein doesn't cause diarrhea. If your dogs have trouble digesting fat or need lower phosphorus due to medical conditions then you should feed them accordingly and not worry about other aspects of their food.


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## LProf (Nov 12, 2013)

Foodie said:


> No need to get an attitude. In a normal dog high protein doesn't cause diarrhea. If your dogs have trouble digesting fat or need lower phosphorus due to medical conditions then you should feed them accordingly and not worry about other aspects of their food.


Didn't intend an attitude. If you took it that way, my apology. There are many "normal dogs" who don't do well on high protein food, loose stools being the most common issue. And high phosphorus levels are not healthy for any dog.


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## Foodie (Apr 25, 2010)

LProf said:


> Didn't intend an attitude. If you took it that way, my apology. There are many "normal dogs" who don't do well on high protein food, loose stools being the most common issue. And high phosphorus levels are not healthy for any dog.


No hard feelings then, apology accepted. 
A food that lists a fat percentage that is 50% of the protein percentage is considered moderate fat. Look at the fat to protein ratios and make sure you aren't overfeeding. Normal kidneys excrete phosphorus that isn't used, no need to worry unless your dog is experiencing kidney failure.


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