# I'm having a hard time transitioning to a new food. Please HELP!



## hazards280 (Jan 30, 2012)

I have a 8 year old German Shepherd, her name is Roxie. She is just like a child to me and we go EVERYWHERE together. I just recently got my own place with her as I finished college and moved out of my parents home. 

About a month after the move, I decided that it would be a good time to introduce Roxie to a new and better food. My parents wouldnt let me feed Roxie a good food while she was there because it was too much of a hassle splitting the foods between dogs. 

Anyhow,

She was on (I know, its terrible) Alpo Come N' Get It Cookout Classics. 

Nutrition Label: Ground yellow corn, corn germ meal, meat and bone meal (source of pork flavor), soybean meal, beef tallow preserved with mixed-tocopherols (form of Vitamin E), egg and chicken flavor, corn gluten meal, animal digest, salt, dried peas, potassium chloride, natural steak flavor, natural grill flavor, choline chloride, added color (Red 40, Yellow 5, Blue 2), zinc sulfate, ferrous sulfate, DL-Methionine, Vitamin E supplement, manganese sulfate, niacin, Vitamin A supplement, calcium carbonate, copper sulfate, calcium pantothenate, garlic oil, pyridoxine hydrochloride, Vitamin B-12 supplement, thiamine mononitrate, Vitamin D-3 supplement, riboflavin supplement, calcium iodate, menadione sodium bisulfite complex (source of Vitamin K activity), folic acid, biotin, sodium selenite. F-5023

And I have tried to transition her to

4health Mature Adult : (It is brand new to TSC and I have to write the label in as it is yet to be online) 

Nutrition Label: Lamb, Lamb Meal, Oatmeal, Whole Grain Brown Rice, Cracked Pearled Barley, Millet, White Rice, Egg product, potatoes, chicken fat, tomato pomace, flaxseed, ocean fish meal, natural flavor, potassium chloride, choline chloride, dried chicory root, glucosamine hydrocloride....etc etc 20% Protein 10% Fat and various vitamins

Now, the problem...... I have been giving her about 3/4 old and 1/4 new on foods for the past week and I came home for lunch today and found a mess :suspicious: ie. Loose Loose Stool in the home. Let me stress that this dog NEVER goes potty in the house. EVER. She knew she was wrong and was crying when I walked in the door because she was so sad that she did it. What is the problem? I took her to the vet last week and everything checked out great. I have also began giving her Salmon Oil and Hip/Joint Pills.

I really dont want to have her on that horrible food she was on before.


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## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

COngrats on your own place, and for recognizing that the food she has been getting is horrible. She is a beautiful dog, but does look like she is a little fat.

first of all, I wouldn't waste any time transitioning from the corn based food. Just throw it out. She'll thank you for it.

Second, my dogs have had diarrhea in the house - it could be alot of things. Stress, for one, because of moving and being alone. there are so many things it could be besides a tiny change in food - really, 3/4 old food and 1/4 new food seems and unlikely candidate. 

We just moved a couple of weeks ago and my little dog suddenly became incontinent - peeing on the floor, peeing on our laps when she slept. It lasted a few days and as we all settled down, she quit peeing everywhere.


third, have you considered raw? You might look into it. 

Other folks can comment on the exact food you have chosen. Good luck, I know you will do what's best for your best friend


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## mythbuster (Jan 23, 2012)

So, I'm going to offer another option. 
I don't believe in choosing a diet based on the ingredient panel because it gives you no indication of the nutrient profile of the diet, quality, digestibility, feeding trials, etc......
Corn is not a bad ingredient. It provides energy in the form of protein and carbohydrates, it provides antioxidants, sulfur amino acids which are good for skin and coat health, omega 6 fatty acids..... it can be an excellent source of nutrition IF the company is choosing high quality corn and processing it appropriately. 

When looking for a new diet, I like to look for a company first, then choose a formula from within their range. I use the following questions as a starting point: 
1. Do you have a Veterinary Nutritionist or some equivalent on staff in your company? Are they available for consultation or questions?
2. Who formulates your diets and what are their credentials?
3. Which of your diet(s) is AAFCO Feed Trial tested? Which of your diets meet AAFCO Nutritional requirements?
4. What Testing do you do beyond AAFCO trials?
5. What specific quality control measures do you use to assure the consistency and quality of your product line? What safety measures do you use?
6. Where are your diets produced and manufactured? Can this plant be visited?
7. Can you provide a complete product nutrient analysis of your best selling canine and feline pet food including digestibility values?
8. Can you give me the caloric value per can or cup of your diets?

As far as the transition, your dog is clearly very sensitive to change, yes environmental stress can play a huge role as well, but doing a hard diet transition will just throw more insult to an already sensitive system. Did anything change today? Was she doing well on the combination until now? Generally for the very sensitive guys I aim for at least a 2 week transition.


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## hazards280 (Jan 30, 2012)

mythbuster said:


> As far as the transition, your dog is clearly very sensitive to change, yes environmental stress can play a huge role as well, but doing a hard diet transition will just throw more insult to an already sensitive system. Did anything change today? Was she doing well on the combination until now? Generally for the very sensitive guys I aim for at least a 2 week transition.


Nothing abnormal happened today. We went on a car ride up north yesterday, (I live in Michigan) however we do that about once every two weeks. She just slept the whole way. And up until now she has been doing great. Her stool was solid and was as happy as can be. The stool that was left in the house today was semi soft and then completely loose. I took her for a walk a minute ago and she passed more very loose stool.

The calorie count on the 4health food is 3421 kcals/kg


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## kevin bradley (Aug 9, 2009)

Transitions can take awhile. There is no set in stone rule for how long it can take. Also, just because a food doesn't agree with your girl doesn't mean its a bad food. I wouldn't give up on what you are doing. No way. Try adding a little Pumpkin to her food to help with the transition. Might be worth a try. 

Also, just my personal thought.... for those on a budget, I really, really, really like Fromm Classics. You can buy it for about $1/pound. Very nice company and I trust them.


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## hazards280 (Jan 30, 2012)

Thanks Mods!


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## hazards280 (Jan 30, 2012)

Update: Today Roxie did fairly well. She did not pass any stool what-so-ever. She did eat a 3/4 - 1/4 breakup of food. I did not give her the salmon oil, I have read that that may irritate the stomach when newly introduced. She did seem a little down in the dumps today, which is not like her, especially when it was in the 50's today.

I think I may stay on the 3/4 - 1/4 break down for another week and try switching to 1/2 - 1/2 then.

In your experience, what are the main (+'s) in switching to a better dog food such as 4health. I know it's not Wellness Core, but its much better than Come And Get It! :shocked:


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## Huginn (Nov 21, 2011)

hazards280 said:


> Update: Today Roxie did fairly well. She did not pass any stool what-so-ever. She did eat a 3/4 - 1/4 breakup of food. I did not give her the salmon oil, I have read that that may irritate the stomach when newly introduced. She did seem a little down in the dumps today, which is not like her, especially when it was in the 50's today.
> 
> I think I may stay on the 3/4 - 1/4 break down for another week and try switching to 1/2 - 1/2 then.
> 
> *In your experience, what are the main (+'s) in switching to a better dog food* such as 4health. I know it's not Wellness Core, but its much better than Come And Get It! :shocked:


IME, shinier coat, not as much dandruff, brighter eyes, less pickup in the yard, and feeding much less of the new food. 

So happy to see that you are getting her off of a corn diet! I loathe that Alpo food . . . with a passion. . .


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## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

Corn isn't used to be a good source of anything in dog food. It's a cheap filler. Recently, there have been several recalls of dog food for aflatoxin in corn-based foods. Aflatoxin is a mold that grows in corn. What faith do you have that people are using good quality corn for cheap dog food? And by "cheap" I don't mean cheap in price, I mean cheap in ingredients. Including brands like Iam's, which was recalled for aflatoxin. 

I used to see an ER vet alot that told me corn is good for dogs. His solution was Science Diet. Of course, he got a kickback from selling it.

The biggest advantage to moving to a better food is getting her off a cheap corn-based food and the possibility that you are feeding your dog cancerous and euthanized animals in that food. In my opinion. 

Look at this page that tells you what to avoid when you buy dog food:
The Dog Food Project - Ingredients to avoid

The following ingredients in Alpo are on the list:
Corn Germ Meal *An inexpensive by-product of human food processing, rich in protein but sadly often used as a booster in poor quality foods.* It is not a harmful ingredient but should not rank high in the ingredient list of a quality product

Meat & Bone Meal - AAFCO: The rendered product from mammal tissues, with or without bone, exclusive of any added blood, hair, hoof, horn, hide trimmings, manure, stomach and rumen contents except in such amounts as may occur unavoidably in good processing practices. *The animal parts used can be obtained from any source, so there is no control over quality or contamination. Any kind of animal can be included: "4-D animals" (dead, diseased, disabled, or dying prior to slaughter), goats, pigs, horses, rats, misc. roadkill, animals euthanized at shelters and so on. It can also include pus, cancerous tissue, and decomposed (spoiled) tissue*

Soybean Meal *A poor quality protein filler used to boost the protein content of low quality pet foods*. Has a biologic value lof ess than 50% of chicken meal.

Beef Tallow - Dogs and cats like the taste of this fat, so *it is often used to make low-quality food more palatable*. Beef tallow is very low in linoleic acid and much cheaper for the pet food industry to use than a good quality vegetable oil or nutritionally rich chicken fat. 

And that's just in the first five ingredients. I'm sure there are many more.

I wouldn't leave my dog on that food for 10 seconds, much less weeks, months, or years.


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## mythbuster (Jan 23, 2012)

xellil said:


> Corn isn't used to be a good source of anything in dog food. It's a cheap filler. Recently, there have been several recalls of dog food for aflatoxin in corn-based foods. Aflatoxin is a mold that grows in corn. What faith do you have that people are using good quality corn for cheap dog food? And by "cheap" I don't mean cheap in price, I mean cheap in ingredients. Including brands like Iam's, which was recalled for aflatoxin.
> 
> I used to see an ER vet alot that told me corn is good for dogs. His solution was Science Diet. Of course, he got a kickback from selling it.
> 
> The biggest advantage to moving to a better food is getting her off a cheap corn-based food and the possibility that you are feeding your dog cancerous and euthanized animals in that food. In my opinion.


I'm not suggesting that the diet the dog is on is good, but the arguments being made generalizing ingredients are completely incorrect. 

Corn is not a filler. It is an exceptional source of nutrients including protein, carbohydrates, antioxidants, omega 6 fatty acids....... It's just important to choose a company that uses high quality corn in their products. And good quality control practices will protect you from contamination from any of the raw ingredients. Any ingredient has the potential to be contaminated, so every company should have measures in place to catch this and stop it from making it into the food. 

As far as vets getting a "kickback", they don't get any more of a kickback than the pet stores and grocery stores selling food. Why is it acceptable for the owners of a pet store to earn a living but as soon as a vet does it makes them evil. Give me a break.


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## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

mythbuster said:


> I'm not suggesting that the diet the dog is on is good, but the arguments being made generalizing ingredients are completely incorrect.
> 
> Corn is not a filler. It is an exceptional source of nutrients including protein, carbohydrates, antioxidants, omega 6 fatty acids....... It's just important to choose a company that uses high quality corn in their products. And good quality control practices will protect you from contamination from any of the raw ingredients. Any ingredient has the potential to be contaminated, so every company should have measures in place to catch this and stop it from making it into the food.
> 
> As far as vets getting a "kickback", they don't get any more of a kickback than the pet stores and grocery stores selling food. Why is it acceptable for the owners of a pet store to earn a living but as soon as a vet does it makes them evil. Give me a break.


We will just have to disagree on the filler thing. I don't believe for a minute it's put in dog food as a quality ingredient.

The difference in a vet and a grocery store is this - people at the grocery store aren't telling you what food to buy. You are not relying on an "expert" to give you advice. AND, grocery stores don't have only one brand of food which they try to sell everyone.


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## mythbuster (Jan 23, 2012)

xellil said:


> The difference in a vet and a grocery store is this - people at the grocery store aren't telling you what food to buy.


SERIOUSLY????? um, they tell you to buy whatever will turn them the most profit. The vet makes a recommendation based on the nutritional needs of the animal. Right now I'm pretty sure most pet stores are pushing blue buffalo. I promise you, it's not because it's a quality product.


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## Makovach (Jan 24, 2012)

I am against corn in dog food. My dogs not only have corn allergies, but its not digestable. Do you really want your dog eating something that HAS to be processed (apparently in a "correct" manor) for the dog to be able to digest it? If it can not be fed in its raw form and be digested, i wouldnt want my dog to have it.

I simply dont like the fact that vets push the food after i have told them i think its overpriced garbage. I had a vet TELL me that its not the best food. She was sponsored by purina vet diets. And she said she wouldnt give it to her dog if it was dying! Yet her tech's are trained to push it and were pushing it on me with my dog that has seizures when given corn! 

Why must you always start a contradiction. If you have not knowticed you are the only one who believes "corn is good for dogs". The OP wasnt asking if corn was good or not. She was asking about transitioning her dog OFF of a CORN based food. 

To the OP. I fed my dogs the 4Health brand (and still do). Maybe she is haveing a harder time adjusting because she is on the lamb? Lamb is much richer than the chicken. I buy my dogs 4Health Small Bites. They like the smaller pieces better and its the same thing and the reg. chicken 4Health but its about $5 cheaper. 

Maybe try some pumpkin &/or yogurt to help with the stools and the probiotics in the yogurt have helped my pups with sensitive tummies.


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## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

mythbuster said:


> SERIOUSLY????? um, they tell you to buy whatever will turn them the most profit. The vet makes a recommendation based on the nutritional needs of the animal. Right now I'm pretty sure most pet stores are pushing blue buffalo. I promise you, it's not because it's a quality product.


The vets make a recommendation based on what is in their waiting room, ready to be sold. I have never, ever had a vet that sells Science Diet give me a recommendation for any other food.

The stores are advertising - not recommending as an expert. There is a big difference.


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## mythbuster (Jan 23, 2012)

Makovach said:


> I am against corn in dog food. My dogs not only have corn allergies, but its not digestable. Do you really want your dog eating something that HAS to be processed (apparently in a "correct" manor) for the dog to be able to digest it? If it can not be fed in its raw form and be digested, i wouldnt want my dog to have it.
> 
> 
> Why must you always start a contradiction. If you have not knowticed you are the only one who believes "corn is good for dogs". The OP wasnt asking if corn was good or not. She was asking about transitioning her dog OFF of a CORN based food..


Corn is highly digestible, and allergies to corn make up less that 1% of allergies. And I must start a contradiction because you're incorrect.


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## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

The Truth About Corn in Dog Food

Some insist corn is a nutritious dog food ingredient… while others denounce it as nothing more than a problematic cereal grain.

Dog Food CornSo, what should you believe? What’s the truth about corn in dog food?

Is it good? Or is it bad?

Well, that depends on whom you ask.

In general, anxieties expressed over the use of corn in dog food seem to come from consumers… pet owners, breeders and the like.

*Whereas the “Corn is Great” crowd appears to include those who have something to gain from making or selling products made with this controversial grain.*

Myths About Corn Promoted
by the Pet Food Industry

Makers and sellers of corn-based foods insist the negative stories about corn are simply unsubstantiated myths and rumors spread around the Internet by simple-minded consumers.

The truth is, the pet food industry itself is guilty of disseminating its own self-serving and myth-based distortions, too.

In fact, most of the exaggerated claims extolling the virtues of corn actually originate within the pet food industry and are unwittingly propagated by naive and well-meaning pet owners.

Here are some of the most enduring myths about corn promoted by makers and sellers of corn-based dog foods.

Myth #1
Corn Has a Low Glycemic Index

The glycemic index is a way of measuring the tendency of a specific food to raise the blood sugar level of an animal. The higher the index, the greater the risk of an unhealthy rise in blood sugar.

Here are the actual glycemic index figures1 for a few common dog food grains…2

Corn meal (69)
Brown rice (55)
Corn (53)
Oatmeal (49)
Wheat (41)
Barley (25)

Compared to most other cereal grains used for making dog food, corn does not have a low glycemic index.

Myth #2
Corn Does Not Cause Allergies

Cheerleaders for corn-based products like to point out that corn is one of the least allergenic ingredients in dog food.

*And according to some studies, that is probably true. One report found the incidence of corn allergy to be only 14%.3 And another places corn at just 3% of all allergies.4

Yet to be fair, other reports caution readers not to place excessive value on the accuracy of these studies due to the notable difficulty in confirming the precise incidence of food allergies in dogs.5

In any case, although it may not be a common food allergen, corn still cannot be completely excused as a potential cause.

When searching the Internet for these studies, it’s hard not to notice the thousands of legitimate reports by owners, breeders, forums and veterinary sites reporting corn and other cereal grains as a likely cause of their dogs’ allergies.

And then there’s the (very real) issue of cereal grain quality.

In many cases, problems aren’t so much a matter of allergies to the corn itself but rather to undetected contaminants within that grain.

It’s not unusual to find storage mites, their droppings and expired carcasses in bulk lots of feed grains6. And all of these are known to be notable canine allergens.

So, for these reasons (and until proven otherwise), we believe corn should still be considered a reasonable suspect when investigating the cause of any food-related canine allergy.*

Myth #3
Corn Is Highly Digestible

As a whole grain, corn is not easily digestible. Unless the kernel is first refined into a meal or a flour (and then cooked), corn can be very difficult for a dog to digest.

As a matter of fact, corn (and other grains) are only digestible to the extent to which they’re processed.

That’s why even though the grain may be listed as “whole” on a pet food label, it’s nearly always first ground before being cooked into kibble.

And the finer it’s ground, the more digestible corn will be. But also, the higher its glycemic index.

However, to the uninformed, the pet food industry’s claim that corn is “99% digestible” can be misleading. It’s easy to innocently take that statement to mean corn has a high nutritional value, too.

Unfortunately, as you’ll see, that is simply not the case.

Myth #4
Corn Has a High Biological Value

There’s nothing unique enough about corn’s content that makes it a nutritional standout… nothing that can’t be found in, or converted from, some other ingredient. Not even protein.

And to those who insist the protein content of a corn kernel has some important biological value we present the following table…7

Dog Food Ingredients and Their Biological Value

When it comes to its protein usability, corn has a measurably lower biological value.

Myth #5
Corn Is Rich in Vitamins and Minerals

Fans of corn also like to claim the grain is high in anti-oxidants and minerals.

High in anti-oxidants and minerals? Compared to what?

Aside from its energy content, corn’s nutritional completeness is certainly not exceptional.

The Nutrient Balance Completeness Score is a measure of how complete a food is with respect to vitamin, mineral and dietary fiber content. The higher the score of a food, the more complete its nutrients.

According to information gathered by NutritionData.com8 from the USDA’s National Nutrient Database for Standard Reference, the Completeness Score for corn and a number of other common ingredients are listed here in increasing nutritional value…

Brown rice (33)
Corn (34)
Barley (36)
Oats (43)
Quinoa (45)
Wheat (48)
Potato (51)
Peas (53)
Sweet potato (55)
Spinach (91)

So, when it comes to judging its vitamin and mineral content, corn is relatively unremarkable.

The Truth About Corn

So, why is corn used so abundantly in the manufacture of today’s commercial dog foods?

Well, as you’ve just seen, surely not because it could be considered more nutritious.

Then, could corn be “more natural”?

When you study a dog’s natural ancestral history, you won’t find any mention of corn. That is, until the year 1956. For that was the year indelibly marked by the invention of kibble.

So, why did the introduction of kibble bring with it such a dramatic rise in the use of corn in making dog food? What suddenly made carbohydrates (like corn, grains and potatoes) so popular with the pet food industry?

The truth is…

 Carbohydrates are cheap
Carbohydrates are vital to the kibbling process

You won’t find corn in commercial dog food because it contributes some unique nutritional property. No, it’s there simply because it supplies cheap calories to the product.

And starchy carbohydrates play a critical role in a process known as gelatinization… which is absolutely crucial to the workings of kibble machinery.

As proof, how often do you find corn in a raw or canned dog food?

The Bottom Line

In a nutshell, corn makes any pet food you find it in less expensive to produce. And it does this by diluting a recipe’s more costly meat ingredients.

Kibble is simply inexpensive fast food for dogs. And that’s OK. Because corn doesn’t just save money for manufacturers. It also makes dog food more affordable for pet owners, too.

However, to advertise that corn is included in commercial dog food mainly for its nutritional benefits is irresponsible and a gross misrepresentation of the facts.

To some manufacturers, it may seem OK for a dog food to contain corn. But it’s not OK to make such outrageous claims and excuses for its presence in a deceptive attempt to mislead consumers or to justify its contrived nutritional value.

Based upon human studies, canine figures unavailable ↩
Brand-Miller J et al, The Glycemic Index Foundation, “The New Glucose Revolution”, New York (2003), pp.291-296 ↩
Fadok V (1994), “Diagnosing and Managing the Food Allergic Dog”, The Compendium 16:12, 1541-1544 ↩
Roudebush P, “Ingredients associated with adverse food reactions in dogs and cats”, Adv Small Anim Med Surg 2002;15(9):1-3 ↩
Chesney, C.J., 2001, “Systematic review of evidence for the prevalence of food sensitivity in dogs”, Veterinary Record, 148:445–448 ↩
Extension Entomologists, North Central States, Federal Extension Service, U.S. Department of Agriculture ↩
Palika, Liz, The Consumers Guide to Dog Food, New York, Howell Book House, 1996 ↩
NutritionData.com ↩


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## Makovach (Jan 24, 2012)

mythbuster said:


> Corn is highly digestible, and allergies to corn make up less that 1% of allergies. And I must start a contradiction because you're incorrect.


But the contradiction has nothing to do with the OP's post. So you are making an unneeded rant. All the proof i need that corn is bad for dogs is all the dogs that are on diets with corn wether it be cheap, or the over priced stuff (iams, science diet, Royal Canin) do TERRIBLE. When taken off corn based foods, or foods high in corn, they do much better. Even if you have "Scientific evidence" that it is digestable and good for them. It doesn't take a scientest to figure out the corn is causeing the problem.


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## mythbuster (Jan 23, 2012)

Makovach said:


> But the contradiction has nothing to do with the OP's post.


It has everything to do with it. Corn is not what makes that food bad. And choosing a corn free food does not mean that the new food will be any better.


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## mythbuster (Jan 23, 2012)

dog food advisor is your reputable source of information? The guy is a human dentist. He doesn't know anything about pets OR nutrition!!!!
This study: Fadok V (1994), “Diagnosing and Managing the Food Allergic Dog”, The Compendium 16:12, 1541-1544 simply discusses how a diagnosis of adverse reaction to food is confirmed by elimination-challenge tests. 
This study: Roudebush P, “Ingredients associated with adverse food reactions in dogs and cats”, Adv Small Anim Med Surg 2002;15(9):1-3 finds that corn has fewer allergy cases than other protein sources, such as: beef, dairy products, chicken, egg, and lamb
This study: Brand-Miller J et al, The Glycemic Index Foundation, “The New Glucose Revolution”, New York (2003), pp.291-296 is on the glycemic index in humans... I thought dogs weren't people???? You cannot translate the glycemic index from people to animals, besides which, you have to consider the diet as a whole, not individual ingredients. 
This study: Chesney, C.J., 2001, “Systematic review of evidence for the prevalence of food sensitivity in dogs”, Veterinary Record, 148:445–448 basically found that the published studies looking at food allergies in dogs are crap.

PS.... I'm not the only one who believes in the benefits of corn
Corn In Pet Foods | GREATDANELADY.COM
Study finds maize gluten feed may be beneficial dog food ingredient
what? grains AREN'T cheap filler????? Grain market: here we go again does this mean GRAIN FREE is actually cheaper to make than grain containing???? WTF????


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## frogdog (Aug 10, 2011)

I have not read the entire thread but as asked in another post that has been ignored...mythbuster, what are your credentials along with formal training/ education? What schools, degrees, etc?

I have all faith in Dermatology - Allergy Focus :: North Carolina State University College of Veterinary Medicine ...would you argue against their program???


ETA: Also, my dog is highly allergic to corn, potatoes...list goes on.


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## Makovach (Jan 24, 2012)

mythbuster said:


> It has everything to do with it. Corn is not what makes that food bad. And choosing a corn free food does not mean that the new food will be any better.


But it has nothing to do with what the OP was asking. She wants to get her dog off corn.


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## The Expert (Jan 25, 2012)

Ok so first the glycemic index, these values are useless! They are from human studies for starters. Secondly, depending on what other nutrients are present will dictaate glycemic index, if you have fibre this value plumits!!!! This argument for starters is invalid due to species and what diet being fed. 

For allergies, ANYTHING with a protien can cause an allergic reaction. Half the information out there is based on case studies and most owners do not do a proper feeding trial as they are lazy. The body has MANY mechanisms in place in order to prevent allergies. Many times I have people who come to me thinking it is grains causing their issues. I look at what they were feeding and actually find that these cases are usually defecienies in nutrients found in high levels in high quality grains. I recomend a diet that still has the ingredietn they thought it was and have yet to have someone say the new diet didnt work. There are dogs with legitmate allergies, however, it can be to any protien. Really this hate against grains are other pet foods trying to use CHEAPER ingredients and get in the market by lying. Look at the cost of grains - they are more expensive to obtain then the rejected people food. NO pet food company feeding pretty little berries and such are getting their food from a human supplier that was still fit for human consumption - lets not be this blind please. 

Corn is highly digestible when cooked properly and processed properly. THis claim against it HAS NO PROOF, you are reading something and wanting to believe it. Everyone always wants references, so where is your reference for this statement? They state that "99% digestible" is misleading, they NEVER describe how, they just "tell" you, you are being mislead, so THIS misleading statement is ACTUALLY misleading you. Everyone wants to believe something is terrible, never the fact that something is good. 

For the biological value - in this supposed "book" where were the BV from? human? rat? how many trials were done, what method of analysis did they use? you cant just see a chart and go "ow wow look at that" yet you question everything I say, why not this? You want to believe corn is bad, but really there is NO REAL evidence. People think that pet food companies are trying to s*** them over. So you believer the ones that actually are!!! 

Nutrient score - this is complete BS. They are looking at vitamins, minerals and fibre. What about amino acid profile? I have actually compared to potato and I think this person (ow wait the writer is human dentist - very reliable *rolls eyes*) has the analysis mixed up. Rice (especially brown rice) is one of the most complete grains. 3rd wold countries thrive on this product, it is the only grain you can survive on solely for awhile and not become defecient. Yet is rates the lowest???? Yah, I really think when you read ANYTHING analyze it, even if you want to believe it. More than 3/4 of what you find on the internet is garbage with no proof. As for the rest of the "completness", why do you think in every diet anything eats there is variety? this is in order to obtain everything we need. There are hundreds of nutrients we need on a daily basis in differnt forms in order to maintain physilogical processes. Not one ingredient will ever FULLY meet these needs. 

Carbs are not cheap, grains are the most over priced commodity you can buy. Just search it, look at the trades if you dont beleive me. What we are trading things at DOES NOT LIE!!!! That should stop this whole BS about cheaper ingredients. Some companies do use crap ingredients - they are the ones that you get what you pay for. This ow the ingredeint deck looks the same but the price is better = better deal. Nope = you are feeding toxins. Same as human food. 

Sorry for my rant, but this just made me very mad. Most of the references were garbage and this is what I was hoping to be able to help people with. Learning what to read and what to ignore. So I hope this can help people with future reading in being able to actually critically anlaysze.


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## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

mythbuster said:


> dog food advisor is your reputable source of information? The guy is a human dentist. He doesn't know anything about pets OR nutrition!!!!
> This study: Fadok V (1994), “Diagnosing and Managing the Food Allergic Dog”, The Compendium 16:12, 1541-1544 simply discusses how a diagnosis of adverse reaction to food is confirmed by elimination-challenge tests.
> This study: Roudebush P, “Ingredients associated with adverse food reactions in dogs and cats”, Adv Small Anim Med Surg 2002;15(9):1-3 finds that corn has fewer allergy cases than other protein sources, such as: beef, dairy products, chicken, egg, and lamb
> This study: Brand-Miller J et al, The Glycemic Index Foundation, “The New Glucose Revolution”, New York (2003), pp.291-296 is on the glycemic index in humans... I thought dogs weren't people???? You cannot translate the glycemic index from people to animals, besides which, you have to consider the diet as a whole, not individual ingredients.
> ...


I would posit that maybe you don't know anything about animal nutrition either. And by one of your own references you say that allergy studies in corn are bogus. Then you can't say that only 1 percent of allergies are because of corn.

I wonder who funded the studies that say corn is good for dogs. Maybe when I have a little more time I will investigate. Since dogs are carnivores, my bet is there is a dog food company behind it.

I did take a look at one of the articles. The price of corn. Wonder what meat would cost to do the same thing? Bet it's alot higher. I will look through the other articles when I have time; I have relatives arriving in an hour.

I will let people judge whether that site is not a good one - personally I think it is. If all you have is "he's a dentist" well, that's not much of a condemnatioin, is it?

The cereal industry is a very powerful lobbyist. VERY powerful. We know that from human food. Who do we trust?


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## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

Ah.... getting testy.


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## mythbuster (Jan 23, 2012)

frogdog said:


> I have not read the entire thread but as asked in another post that has been ignored...mythbuster, what are your credentials along with formal training/ education? What schools, degrees, etc?
> 
> I have all faith in Dermatology - Allergy Focus :: North Carolina State University College of Veterinary Medicine ...would you argue against their program???


I don't ignore any question that is asked of me. If I didn't answer something, it's because I didn't see it. Unlike the other people in here who only seem to focus on one issue they want to argue while turning a blind eye on all facts and references that may be presented. 

I have an HBSc in Biology and Math. I have a DVM degree. I have completed continuing education courses in topics including endocrinology, cardiology, nephrology, radiology, surgery, dentistry, and nutrition. The past 2 years have been dedicated almost exclusively to nutritional training, and I am currently working as a nutrition consultant for veterinarians, meaning I help guide them working up medical cases, case management, and nutritional management. 

I'm not sure what NCSU is teaching... but I don't see anything in that link that states corn is a bad ingredient. The only way to positively diagnose a food allergy is through an elimination diet trial. Feed a single novel protein and carb source until all clinical signs are gone, and then "challenge" with ingredients to look for return of clinical signs. A dog can be allergic to ANYTHING. My point is that corn is no more likely (actually it is less likely) to be the cause of an allergic reaction than many other sources of protein.


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## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

Oh, and one more thing and then I must run.

They don't put the prime, expensive corn in dog food. They put the waste corn. Which is why it has aflatoxin in it and has to be recalled. That would never pass for human food consumption, but it sure gets in the dog food.

And I will read your references. I am not totally close minded. I think I've read all or most of them, but I'll check. I didn't come to the conclusion that dried dog food (including corn) was bad for my dogs because someone told me so.


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## mythbuster (Jan 23, 2012)

xellil said:


> If all you have is "he's a dentist" well, that's not much of a condemnatioin, is it?


the condemnation is that he doesn't know anything about animals or their nutrition, and people act like that website offers the gold standard of diet recommendations. It's complete bunk, and yes, I get very testy because I have patients presenting to me sick because they listen to the misinformation that is posted all over the internet. If you'll look at my last post, you will see I was showing you that all of the references posted by you quoting him do the opposite of prove that corn is bad.


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## mythbuster (Jan 23, 2012)

xellil said:


> Oh, and one more thing and then I must run.
> 
> They don't put the prime, expensive corn in dog food. They put the waste corn. Which is why it has aflatoxin in it and has to be recalled. That would never pass for human food consumption, but it sure gets in the dog food.


not every company does this.


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## frogdog (Aug 10, 2011)

mythbuster said:


> I don't ignore any question that is asked of me. If I didn't answer something, it's because I didn't see it. Unlike the other people in here who only seem to focus on one issue they want to argue while turning a blind eye on all facts and references that may be presented.
> 
> I have an HBSc in Biology and Math. I have a DVM degree. I have completed continuing education courses in topics including endocrinology, cardiology, nephrology, radiology, surgery, dentistry, and nutrition. The past 2 years have been dedicated almost exclusively to nutritional training, and I am currently working as a nutrition consultant for veterinarians, meaning I help guide them working up medical cases, case management, and nutritional management.
> 
> I'm not sure what NCSU is teaching... but I don't see anything in that link that states corn is a bad ingredient. The only way to positively diagnose a food allergy is through an elimination diet trial. Feed a single novel protein and carb source until all clinical signs are gone, and then "challenge" with ingredients to look for return of clinical signs. A dog can be allergic to ANYTHING. My point is that corn is no more likely (actually it is less likely) to be the cause of an allergic reaction than many other sources of protein.


My intent of posting the link is NCSU does more than a process of eliminaton. We had extensive test perfomed on our dog along with elimination...mainly because I wanted answers and not a long drawn out couple weeks possibly months relying on feeding alone.

Could you tell us where you received your education? Especially animal nutrition?


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## The Expert (Jan 25, 2012)

hazards280 said:


> 4health Mature Adult : (It is brand new to TSC and I have to write the label in as it is yet to be online)
> 
> Nutrition Label: Lamb, Lamb Meal, Oatmeal, Whole Grain Brown Rice, Cracked Pearled Barley, Millet, White Rice, Egg product, potatoes, chicken fat, tomato pomace, flaxseed, ocean fish meal, natural flavor, potassium chloride, choline chloride, dried chicory root, glucosamine hydrocloride....etc etc 20% Protein 10% Fat and various vitamins
> 
> ...


Hi Hazards280! 
The reason you are having issues transitioning is that GS have very very sensitive stomachs. Dog (even humans) are built like a donoght, the cells on the outside are the same as on the inside. This is why you can typically see GS with dandruff, dry rough coats, and often can have a very dull looking coat. 
Becuse they have such a senstive stomach they need a proper fibre balance in their diet in order to maintain a good flow. Old roy worked because it was a better formuation for her. That being said it is 100% garbage. I would recomend that you try a fromula with very digestible meats - chicken is better for digestbility (same ideas ws when you are sick and you eat chicken noodle soup, chicken is a smaller protien easier to be broken down into amino acids). For the fibre sources, you want brown rice, oatmeal, beet pulp (is an excellent soure of soluble and insoluble fibre). Fibre is no longer fibre anymore, you want to make sure you can balance between soluble (absorbs water and ensures a proper stool) and insoluble (aids digestive flow - ensureing proper transit times). These types can also be used by the large intestine bacteria and help promote a good microflora and pH. Prebiotics, whcih will help do this are another good thing to have in a formula. These can be beta-glucans, FOS, MOS. You can get these from beet pulp. Do not get a formula with probiotics (live bacterial cultures) this is a waste, they die and wont help her. 
Salmon oil is great for giving EPA/DHA whcih can help promote joints by decreasing inflammation. They do also give a shiny looking coat (but there is more to coat health then just omegas). I hope this helps guide you a little bit


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## The Expert (Jan 25, 2012)

xellil said:


> Oh, and one more thing and then I must run.
> 
> They don't put the prime, expensive corn in dog food. They put the waste corn. Which is why it has aflatoxin in it and has to be recalled. That would never pass for human food consumption, but it sure gets in the dog food.
> 
> ...


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## Rodeo (Sep 11, 2011)

mythbuster said:


> Corn is highly digestible, and allergies to corn make up less that 1% of allergies. And I must start a contradiction because you're incorrect.



Corn is highly digestible?? When is the last time YOU ate corn? Go eat you a few ears and then check your waste... *WE* cannot even digest corn and we are designed to digest fruits/veggies/plants. Dogs aren't and you think corn is good for them?

As far as allergies- my mom had blood work done on her Lhasa and corn was on the top of her allergy list.


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## Sprocket (Oct 4, 2011)

Even if corn isn't the devil, why do we (as humans) think that they need it as a main ingredient in their diet? I don't see wolves or coyotes stealing corn, I see them killing animals and stealing chickens and livestock. 

With all this arguing about corn, it really do not matter. Dogs don't need it anyway! They are designed to eat meat. No matter how processed the corn, it is still not what dogs are meant to eat. 

Can't argue with nature :smile:


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## Roo (Oct 17, 2010)

I found nutritionist Dr. Richard Patton's view on corn and carbohydrates interesting. I found his youtube nutrition seminar on behavior and diet to be very informative. I posted a link on it before, but I'm not sure how many people actually watched the whole seminar and all the videos. I don't agree with everything he talks about, but his views on carbs and corn seem to make sense to me.

Here's the part on his thoughts on carbs in dog food and blood sugar effects etc. K-9 Kraving presents Dr. Richard Patton, PhD - Part 2 - YouTube

On K9 Kraving's website (a raw dog food company he consults with) he did give his thoughts on corn, answering someone's question about it.

*Question:* _I have been looking into holistic dog foods. One in particular, along with some others, say only one formula is needed for all of life stages.
They recommend adding fresh raw meat and other whole foods to a pet’s daily fare, to maintain proper nutritional balance.

This brand states, “The grade of corn other companies use is the allergy problem, not the corn; premium-grade corn is one of the best sources of skin and coat conditioners. Corn is also an excellent source of amylase, a much-needed enzyme for the proper digestion of carbohydrates. Without amylase, much of what animals eat will no longer benefit them and may cause dramatic weight loss. Premium grade corn is also an excellent source of carbohydrates, protein, and fatty acids, which provide additional energy.”

I will be very curious to hear your take on that, since all I have ever heard is that corn is a no-no.

Now, there are others that are grain free, with certain veggies, and fruits, which sound good. Due to the fact that their digestive system is so short, and designed so different from ours, it only made sense to me that they require more meat, and just a little plant life – where we require more plants, and grains, and less meats.

I’m eager to hear what you have to say and would love to know the %’s of protein, etc. that pups need, adults, and the elderly dog.

-Tammy

PS – I was impressed that you responded to my email. This is quite important to me.
_
*Dr. Patton's Answer:*
_I am trying to make a mid March deadline on getting a book manuscript to the publisher in London–on pet nutrition. It is over 300 pages and the biggest problem has been keeping it from being 600 pages. The point I’m making is that I have a problem with your question: I know too much (or think I do). I don’t know where to begin eliminating what not to tell you from all the stuff I want you to know. And neither you or I have time for me to drone on for hours.

Anyway, here goes–The six sentence feeding guide:

*Fresh, raw, animal based protein is best;
*You can feed vegetables, high fiber ones much preferred;
*Some fruit OK. No grapes;
*Sold by a reputable store, produced by a reputable company, with nutrition backup available.

(I don’t say that because I’m a nutritionist I say it because it is an important indication a company understands nutrition science can make useful contributions to pet’s health and they can’t know it all themselves.)

*Diet should be balanced for vitamins and minerals. They don’t have to be added as an ingredient in the formula, but they should be in the pet food because they are included within the ingredients.

*Diet should be low in soluble carbohydrate (very low sugar and starch 6-8% is best).

I will say that a list of all known vitamins and minerals is not absolutely essential in a well formulated diet. By that I mean many micronutrients are common place in wholesome ingredients and if not cooked, are bio-available to a pet. They may not have included these micronutrients to fully meet AAFCO in and of themselves. They may have augmented the natural, endogenous vitamins and minerals already in the ingredients.

I do not agree that corn is OK to feed to a dog at any level, though what they say about quality may be true. I guess sometimes some bad corn can get into the supply channels, but I do not accept their argument (that corn is OK if pure and theirs is pure) as the reason, or sufficient reason, to include corn in their diet. However, it does not seem that they have used an excessive amount. It is 4th on the list, which means it is probably about 20% or so, if they are abiding by AAFCO regulations.

I am not at all accustomed to considering corn a good source of all those things they boast about. Yes, corn does contain protein, carbs, and fatty acids, but many other ingredients are higher and better. The fatty acids are called corn oil, and several plant oils are better nutrition than corn oil. I have never heard that natural corn contains amylase. If it does, it must be in-activate, and de-in-activated when it reaches the gut, or else corn would digest itself. I guess it does, if they are right. I’ll let them go on some of the other things they say that I feel are dubious, but on this one about amylase, I think you had better challenge them to produce proof of what they say. Either they are knowledgeable beyond anyone I ever met, or they are taking half sentences from elsewhere, adding thoughts of their own, and making them into a sales brochure. Perhaps I have something to learn here; let me know what they say.

What dogs really need is a diet that is about 8-10% soluble carbohydrate. I know the usual 35-45% or more in most expanded dry kibbles, if fed every day, is not the best for a dog–and even worse for a cat.

The dog’s GI system is not all that different from ours. Dogs and people are both mono-gastrics. True, dogs do wolf down their food, and are reported to have a smaller stomach, but dogs can survive fine on a human diet, provided it is a proper human diet.

- Dr. Richard Patton Phd_


*Dr. Richard Patton's credentials:* Since 1980, Dr. Patton has consulted for hundreds of businesses throughout the U.S. and 20 other countries, covering feeding of every possible type of food, feed-grain and forage. Emphasis has always been on keeping animals healthy, with quality ingredients as the foundation. Patton has a carefully developed skill for transferring technical information from the source to the end user, extracting the important facts from the nutritional biochemistry research and presenting the information in a manner that has relevance for animal owners.

Having authored twenty-eight scientific publications and established two patents, in addition, presented numerous papers at scientific meetings, Dr. Patton is a well-known animal nutrition consultant. Patton has helped position companies, like K-9 Kraving, for the marketplace, always with a focus on benefiting the animal and the owner of the animal. In this manner, he has become one of the leading experts in organic minerals in animal nutrition and a pioneer researcher in nutrition during late gestation. Additionally, he is an active international animal nutrition consultant for: Japan, Australia, Ireland, Spain, Egypt, Korea, Abu Dhabi, Belgium, Austria, Mexico, Singapore, Germany, Holland, Switzerland, Canada, Thailand, Italy, Denmark, Portugal and Check Republic.

EDUCATION: Bachelor in Animal Science, Pennsylvania State University ; Master of Science in Reproductive Physiology, Purdue University; Ph.D. in Animal Nutrition, Virginia Polytechnic Institute and State University; and Business studies at Washburn University, Topeka, KS.


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## mythbuster (Jan 23, 2012)

Rodeo said:


> Corn is highly digestible?? When is the last time YOU ate corn? Go eat you a few ears and then check your waste... *WE* cannot even digest corn and we are designed to digest fruits/veggies/plants. Dogs aren't and you think corn is good for them?
> 
> As far as allergies- my mom had blood work done on her Lhasa and corn was on the top of her allergy list.


Yes, *WE* can. we can't digest the shell of the kernel, which is what you see the next day if you don't chew it properly. What do you see the next day if you eat corn flakes?


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## Rodeo (Sep 11, 2011)

mythbuster said:


> Yes, *WE* can. we can't digest the shell of the kernel, which is what you see the next day if you don't chew it properly. What do you see the next day if you eat corn flakes?


Wouldn't know, don't eat it. 

And even still, corn flakes are processed. If the only way a dog can get nutrients out of an item is for it to be processed... seems to me they don't need it. What's best for the dog is what it's body is designed to breakdown on it's own.


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## mythbuster (Jan 23, 2012)

Processing can be as simple as grinding. AKA CHEWING. 
You don't NEED any one specific ingredient. You NEED nutrients. Which can be supplied in a variety of ways, using a variety of ingredients.


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## Caty M (Aug 13, 2010)

But the best way would be the most natural, no? Not something that HAS to be processed in order to extract nutrients.


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## mythbuster (Jan 23, 2012)

Caty M said:


> But the best way would be the most natural, no? Not something that HAS to be processed in order to extract nutrients.


a) what is natural for an unnatural species? dogs are man-made
b) why does one have to be better? If the animal is receiving appropriate nutrients in appropriate amounts in an easily digestible form, isn't THAT what matters?


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## Caty M (Aug 13, 2010)

Dogs aren't unnatural. They are a subspecies of the grey wolf. Domesticated, yes, and physically unnatural. But still a wolf.

As you said the nutrient profile of McDonalds vs fresh foods will never be the same.. and the same goes for bad kibble (including Royal Canin and Science Diet) vs a fresh diet. Even the type of fats are different. A dog's natural diet doesn't contain a lot of polyunsaturated fats that corn contains.. I know that my dogs diet is full of healthy, saturated fats good for dogs. Not so with corn.


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## mythbuster (Jan 23, 2012)

Caty M said:


> Dogs aren't unnatural. They are a subspecies of the grey wolf. Domesticated, yes, and physically unnatural. But still a wolf.
> 
> As you said the nutrient profile of McDonalds vs fresh foods will never be the same.. and the same goes for bad kibble (including Royal Canin and Science Diet) vs a fresh diet. Even the type of fats are different. A dog's natural diet doesn't contain a lot of polyunsaturated fats that corn contains.. I know that my dogs diet is full of healthy, saturated fats good for dogs. Not so with corn.


let's agree to disagree. I'll be sure to warn the kids to steer clear next time they see a Chihuawolf or a Wol-yorki-poo.


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## The Expert (Jan 25, 2012)

Sprocket said:


> Even if corn isn't the devil, why do we (as humans) think that they need it as a main ingredient in their diet? I don't see wolves or coyotes stealing corn, I see them killing animals and stealing chickens and livestock.


Actually I can, Wolves do eat corn, researchers have actually seen them raid farmers feilds. Also the livestock they are killing has eaten ALL GRAINS!!!! SO lets look at this using our brains for a little while. How unnatural is it when with every kill they eat is a vegetarian species that has EATEN some grain due to farmers feilds? Or even grass seeds (which are like a grain). The first part they go for, the digestive tract!!!!! FULL OF GRAINS!!!! You all just want to focus on one part, but there are SOOO many parts to nutrition and how a species acts. You keep thinking carnivore only meat this is natural. Come on, just watch national geographic for once and ACTUALLY watch what they eat! Yes a carcass, but ALO TONS of grains, or more specifically Carbs!!!!


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## Caty M (Aug 13, 2010)

Dogs (and wolves) generally do not eat the digestive tract of large prey, they will slice it open, shake out the contents and eat the stomach lining itself. That's straight from David Mech.. the leading wolf researcher.. in the entire world. They do NOT go for the digestive tract but the internal organs first. If wolves are raiding farmers' fields, well, so what? THEY CANNOT BREAK DOWN UNPROCESSED GRAIN. They lack grinding molars. 

I think your name "The Expert" is a tad misleading.

And Mythbuster, what about wolf hybrids? They are fully able to reproduce. No need to be sarcastic. Just because of the size difference toy dogs and wolves are unable to mate.. just like you don't see many great dane/chihuahua crosses running around.. but you can be sure there are plenty of wolf-huskies, wolf-malamutes, and other wolf-hybrids around.. in fact there is at least one that I know of on this board (Shiloh).


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## The Expert (Jan 25, 2012)

Maybe YOU should do some reading. Look up what do wolves eat, stomach contents of ungaltes. Funny, where I kept finding they did not was RAW diet websites....
International Wolf Center Learn - Frequently Asked Questions about Wolves
How about before you start saying people dont know things, you should make sure you KNOW what you are saying. The teeth arugment is bogus, they still secrete amylase, and if it is from the stomach contents the chewing was done for them. Maybe you should read what I said before, and think about the WHOLE picture not just one point!


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## Scarlett_O' (May 19, 2011)

mythbuster said:


> a) what is natural for an unnatural species? *dogs are man-made*
> b) why does one have to be better? If the animal is receiving appropriate nutrients in appropriate amounts in an easily digestible form, isn't THAT what matters?


This is, by far, the most ridiculous comment I've seen by "you guys" so far!!

A dog is an animal....a computer, car, etc are man made....animals are NOT!
Breeds might have been bred by humans, but dogs are not man made!


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## Caty M (Aug 13, 2010)

The Expert said:


> Maybe YOU should do some reading. Look up what do wolves eat, stomach contents of ungaltes. Funny, where I kept finding they did not was RAW diet websites....
> International Wolf Center Learn - Frequently Asked Questions about Wolves
> How about before you start saying people dont know things, you should make sure you KNOW what you are saying. The teeth arugment is bogus, they still secrete amylase, and if it is from the stomach contents the chewing was done for them. Maybe you should read what I said before, and think about the WHOLE picture not just one point!


I am reading what wolves eat. It's in David Mech's book, Wolves: Behavior, Ecology and Conservation. David Mech is the leading researcher on wolves. 

The teeth argument is not bogus. They cannot grind vegetation like a vegetarian, or even an omnivore (people) can. Cats, as everyone says, are strict carnivores, and they also secrete amylase from the pancreas.. so your point is moot.

I am thinking about the whole picture. It's you who is not. When a wolf is not going through a period of starvation, it eats meat, bone and organ. It's teeth are designed for killing and eating meat, bone and organ. It's digestive tract is designed for processing meat, bone and organ. I don't know what more you need to see that wolves are carnivores other than their behavior and physical makeup.. 

And there is still the point that, even if wolves do occasionally eat grass or berries or whatever, they don't need it. Mine and all of the other raw feeders on this website get no vegetation whatsoever... and their dogs are thriving. Now I realize that kibble does need a carbohydrate binder and that is fine, but the kibble should still most closely represent a *proper, canine, carnivorous diet.*


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## Huginn (Nov 21, 2011)

The Expert said:


> Maybe YOU should do some reading. Look up what do wolves eat, stomach contents of ungaltes. Funny, where I kept finding they did not was RAW diet websites....
> International Wolf Center Learn - Frequently Asked Questions about Wolves
> How about before you start saying people dont know things, you should make sure you KNOW what you are saying. The teeth arugment is bogus, they still secrete amylase, and if it is from the stomach contents the chewing was done for them. Maybe you should read what I said before, and think about the WHOLE picture not just one point!


I just read this and NO WHERE IN IT does it say that wolves eat the stomach contents. It says that they eat the ungulate itself. . . 



> *Wolves are carnivores, or meat eaters*. *Gray wolves prey primarily on ungulates - large, hoofed mammals such as white-tailed deer, mule deer, moose, elk, caribou, bison, Dall sheep, musk oxen, and mountain goats. Medium-sized mammals, such as beaver and snowshoe hares, can be an important secondary food source.* Occasionally wolves will prey on birds or small mammals such as mice and voles, but these are supplementary to their requirements for large amounts of meat. Wolves have been observed catching fish in places like Alaska and western Canada. They will also kill and eat domestic livestock such as cattle and sheep, and they will consume carrion if no fresh meat is available. *Some wolves eat small amounts of fruit, although this is not a significant part of their diet.* If prey is abundant, wolves may not consume an entire carcass, or they may leave entire carcasses without eating. This is called "surplus killing" and seems inconsistent with the wolves' habit of killing because they are hungry. Surplus killing seems to occur when prey are vulnerable and easy to catch - in winter, for instance, when there is deep snow. Since wolves are programmed to kill when possible, they may simply be taking advantage of unusual situations when wild prey are relatively easy to catch They may return later to feed on an unconsumed carcass, or they may leave it to a host of scavengers. Additionally, they may cache food and dig it up at a later time.
> 
> Red wolves primarily prey on white-tailed deer, raccoons, rabbits, nutria and other rodents.





> Getting enough to eat is a full-time job for a wolf. When wolves catch and kill a large mammal, they will gorge and then rest while the food is being rapidly digested. They will generally consume *all but the hide, some of the large bones and skull and the rumen (stomach contents of ungulates) of their prey*. Gray wolves can survive on about 2 1/2 pounds of food per wolf per day, but they require about 7 pounds per wolf per day to reproduce successfully. The most a large gray wolf can eat at one time is about 22.5 pounds. Adult wolves can survive for days and even weeks without food if they have to. Growing pups, however, require regular nourishment in order to be strong enough to travel and hunt with the adults by the autumn of their first year. Wolves often rely on food they have cached after a successful hunt in order to see them through lean times.
> 
> Red wolves may eat 2 to 5 pounds of food per day when prey is abundant. Because they are smaller than gray wolves, they can consume less at one time than their larger cousins. But like all wolves, eating for red wolves is a matter of "feast" followed by "famine."



International Wolf Center Learn - Frequently Asked Questions about Wolves

LOL, in fact it says they consume the whole thing EXCEPT the rumen . . . I love how you just proved yourself wrong in trying to prove you were right. The phrase "all but" indicates they do not eat the items following the phrase. 

Score one for the PMR feeders.


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

:usa::usa::usa::usa::usa::usa:


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## meggels (May 30, 2010)

Time out corner.


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## Amy18 (May 17, 2011)

Not to stir the pot here but i'm pretty sure these 2 are 1 in the same. Still a very good debate and interesting read nonetheless. If anything i think it provides a little comic relief. 

I do agree with most here, the nutritional requirements of dogs don't need to be so over complicated. It's plain to see they have no need for things like corn and the like in their diet. The OP has made the right decision to take her dog off it.


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

:usa::usa::usa::usa::usa::usa:


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## Huginn (Nov 21, 2011)

I don't know why this had to go all down hill and extremely OT in the first place. The OP didn't ask for opinions on what foods to feed in the first post, he/she just asked how to ease the dogs stomach in the transition and if there was a better way to transition. As far as I read, he/she did not ask for opinions on the food choice, so why it has ended this way I am not sure. . . it frustrates me to no end. 
As far as the original question is concerned good advice was given, it is just a shame to have to wade through all of the bickering and disagreement and comments bordering on insulting to get to the solution to the question asked. 
If this is what my first thread on a forum looked like I wouldn't stick around very long, hopefully the OP doesn't feel that way. 
IMO this thread, and some of the others as of late, are not a good representation of how wonderful this community is. It seems to me to be giving an image of a group of passionate, although near childish, argumentative and bitter dog lovers. I haven't been here long, but I have been here long enough to know that this is not true, and it saddens me that we (myself included) have represented ourselves as such lately. 

Just needed to get that off my chest. I hope I did not offend anyone.


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## Caty M (Aug 13, 2010)

You might want to go even slower, 1/10th of the new food at first, and over 2 weeks or so. Cut out all extras like treats and just use some of her own kibble.

I agree also that you may want to cut down a bit on the amount that you are feeding, she does look a little overweight, plus the new food likely has more calories per cup than the Alpo.


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## meggels (May 30, 2010)

OT, but Caty, your pic of Tess in your signature has me cracking up.


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## Caty M (Aug 13, 2010)

"I would _never_ go through the garbage when you turned your back.. it must have been the cats!"
Ha, she looks so innocent.. SO not her..


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## meggels (May 30, 2010)

I've noticed with whippets and IG's...they are trying to look innocent, but also have a look in their eye as if they are also plotting their world takeover.


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## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

Well, i think this all started because I suggested taking her dog off the Alpo right away, rather than go for weeks trying to transition. I still believe that - maybe i have been lucky in my life, but i have never gradually removed a dog from food and if they had digestive issues it was very minor. I figure it's better to chop off the head in one fell swoop rather than saw it slowly.


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

:usa::usa::usa::usa::usa::usa:


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## hazards280 (Jan 30, 2012)

Huginn said:


> I don't know why this had to go all down hill and extremely OT in the first place. The OP didn't ask for opinions on what foods to feed in the first post, he/she just asked how to ease the dogs stomach in the transition and if there was a better way to transition. As far as I read, he/she did not ask for opinions on the food choice, so why it has ended this way I am not sure. . . it frustrates me to no end.
> As far as the original question is concerned good advice was given, it is just a shame to have to wade through all of the bickering and disagreement and comments bordering on insulting to get to the solution to the question asked.
> If this is what my first thread on a forum looked like I wouldn't stick around very long, hopefully the OP doesn't feel that way.
> IMO this thread, and some of the others as of late, are not a good representation of how wonderful this community is. It seems to me to be giving an image of a group of passionate, although near childish, argumentative and bitter dog lovers. I haven't been here long, but I have been here long enough to know that this is not true, and it saddens me that we (myself included) have represented ourselves as such lately.
> ...


Update: Today Roxie did very well, she is a little more active than she was yesterday. As well, she did pass some stool today. It was (not to be graphic or anything) but fairly solid although, not the norm. I have stopped giving the Salmon Oil and continued on the 3/4-1/4 ratio of feed. I did compare the recommended feeding amount on both packages and they vary by 4 cups! I have dropped her daily intake to about 2 cups for now. She seems to be drinking quite a bit of water, however it may just be the warm weather we have been having. 

I did have her blood tested a month ago and it was perfect, so diabetes is not something to be concerned about! (Thank Gosh!) 

I understand where the opposing views in the previous pages came from. It was a lot to go through and read, however there was a lot to be learned in them. I am going to stick with my decision and transition Roxie into the new food. My feelings are, that before domestication dogs obviously ate meat. I have a hard time picturing them walking around plucking corn off the stalks! I don't want to cause any harsh feeling or anything, it's just an opinion, everyone has one 

I do want to say that I am very satisfied with the amount of participation in this thread. A lot of studying went into some of the posts! You seem like a great group of people and I plan on sticking around for quite a while. You can see how Roxie is doing and I can enjoy seeing your second children go through life as well!

I will continue to post updates so you can all see how things are going

Chad


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## biancaDB (Nov 3, 2011)

I just skimmed through this thread but as soon as I saw the comment that corn can be a good source of protein if its GOOD QUALITY corn, I cringed.

The same people saying corn can be a good ingredient are the same people that say high protein diets put a strain on a dogs liver. Does anyone else see the connection? Corn...bad protein...straining the liver AND THEN we take a look at high protein kibbles with quality meats contributing to the protein level and we see no issues. HMMMM makes sense.

Dogs need meat. I don't care that they graze on grass and berries when they're starving, I care about what they NEED and providing that for them... not giving them the garbage they graze on when they can't find what they NEED.

OP: in terms of foods to check out (could have been mentioned but again, i skimmed through this) Fromm is a trusted family company and I know a lot of the kibble feeders use that in their rotations. Taste of The Wild, GO! or NOW! and EVO are all other foods I've heard good things about and seen dogs do very well on.


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## Huginn (Nov 21, 2011)

So glad to hear that she is doing well. I can't wait to see how she improves, she is such a cute gal.


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

:usa::usa::usa::usa::usa:


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## Makovach (Jan 24, 2012)

glad she is doing better  transitioning food can be a long process. 

(P.S.- You should post some more pics of your beautiful girl!)


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## luvMyBRT (Mar 8, 2010)

Great news! :biggrin1:


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## hazards280 (Jan 30, 2012)

UPDATE:

I wish I could say things are going as well as they were a few days ago, but I can't. I just took her out for her morning walk and she is passing very loose stool again. I've had her on this 3/4 - 1/4 mixture for about a week now. During that time period she went from loose to solid and back to loose. Her stomach really isn't doing well with this change.


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## mythbuster (Jan 23, 2012)

hazards280 said:


> UPDATE:
> 
> I wish I could say things are going as well as they were a few days ago, but I can't. I just took her out for her morning walk and she is passing very loose stool again. I've had her on this 3/4 - 1/4 mixture for about a week now. During that time period she went from loose to solid and back to loose. Her stomach really isn't doing well with this change.


maybe it's not the right diet for this dog. If it was me, I would make a list of the things I wanted nutritionally for this dog (I would say #1 right now would be solid poop....). Then find a diet that addresses all the needs. Then start over with your transition. In the meantime, you could add a little bit of metamucil to help soak up some of the excess moisture in the stool so that it's not liquid diarrhea.


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## Scarlett_O' (May 19, 2011)

hazards280 said:


> UPDATE:
> 
> I wish I could say things are going as well as they were a few days ago, but I can't. I just took her out for her morning walk and she is passing very loose stool again. I've had her on this 3/4 - 1/4 mixture for about a week now. During that time period she went from loose to solid and back to loose. Her stomach really isn't doing well with this change.


I REALLY does take a while getting decent stool from an inept diet(like alpo) to a better one.

Give her some time, her stomach is just getting use to the more rich food!:thumb:

Leo went thru that, he was on NASTY crap(olroy stew something or another) when I swapped him to raw, fasted him a day and then fed.....he would have a solid, then loose, then semi-solid, then really loose, etc....its just the fact that their bodies are not use to having so much that is able to be properly digested!:thumb: (Especially where she is an older dog!)

If it was me, and this was one of the foods I wanted her on, I would give her more time....just expect that everything isnt going to be perfect off the get go!:smile:


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## hazards280 (Jan 30, 2012)

Scarlett_O' said:


> I REALLY does take a while getting decent stool from an inept diet(like alpo) to a better one.
> 
> Give her some time, her stomach is just getting use to the more rich food!:thumb:
> 
> ...


Thanks for the words of encouragement! She has always been a sensitive dog when it came to food, however, I have never made a big change to her diet until now. Its just hard to see her body reacting this way to a new food. I am just worried how things will go when I go to the 50/50 ratio; or even straight. Have you ever saw a dog that for some reason just CANNOT transition?

Should I be concerned about dehydration? I have water out at all times, but she doesn't seem to be drinking more than normal. 

Here is another photo of her: (*Mind you, she has lost some weight since then. She weighs 86.5 pounds according to the vet. *


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## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

Are you soaking the food? That would help with water.


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## hazards280 (Jan 30, 2012)

xellil said:


> Are you soaking the food? That would help with water.


I have not. I will give it a try, however she may not eat it. She isn't too fond of the new foods flavor as well.


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## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

Maybe try pouring some chicken or beef broth over the food.


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## Dude and Bucks Mamma (May 14, 2011)

I had some things to say about some the above posts about corn, chewing, etc, but I will refrain since we have FINALLY gotten this thread back on topic. 


If she doesn't seem to be liking the food then I would honestly look at a different food. While some will argue that switching foods from something you are trying to get her to eat will teach her to be picky and she will learn that she can dictate what you feed her, I think that sometimes, a dog just doesn't like the way a kibble tastes. If she does the same thing with a different brand then she is probably just being picky.

All of us raw feeders do know what it is like to have major cannon butt happen in our houses. I never did a slow transition back when I fed kibble either and had no problems but with raw we learned what cannon butt really was. I'm sure it happens with transitions for a lot of kibble feeders too but when we fed kibble we only switched once that I can remember. Unfortunately it was from Iams to Pedigree *shudder*

And no need to be bashful when talking about poo! It's a common topic on this forum. There are even a couple of threads dedicated to nothing BUT poo!


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## Emily (Feb 4, 2012)

Stress could be a big factor like the other guest suggested. But sometimes too there are just foods that our pets can not stomach. It is a lot of trial and error and of course doing your research on the ingredients you are feeding. I feed a brand called Earthborn Holistic which is sold in independent stores. This brand has holisitic and grain free formula's. The large bags are in the mid $40's. I am not sure how much you pay for the brand your feeding and I know that is also a factor in most people choice. Definately do your research into what you are feeding. Purchase smaller bags at first until you know if the dog likes and can handle the food. And most of these premium brand companies will return the food. Good luck in your search and getting this problem cleared up.


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## hazards280 (Jan 30, 2012)

Hello, all. I am the original poster on this thread and am back to give you a little update on Roxie's progress throughout last year.#1, I haven't been on here much as last year was very busy! Things are winding down a little and im going around to do some updates!

I tried getting Roxie to transition for a few weeks after this thread ended on 2-4-12 and she continued to have loose stool. I ended up deciding to go with a medium quality food "Eukanuba Large Breed" and she switched to that very nicely. She has since been on that however I have never really been happy with the choice as I know its not a great food. Today I started introduction Roxie to Blue Buffalo's line of Basics. This is a minimalistic food with lower protein (I think the last food was too rich) and the least ingredients. This particular version is grain free as well. It is the only basic one that is grain free however they are all no wheat , corn , soy, milk and egg. I hope this transitions nicely as it is very basic as far as ingredients go. I also hope the 7% fiber content helps make solid stool. 

*Deboned Turkey,
Turkey Meal,
Potatoes,
Pea Starch,
Peas,
Pea Fiber,
Tomato Pomace (source of Lycopene),
Flaxseed (source of Omega 3 and 6 Fatty Acids),
Canola Oil (preserved with Mixed Tocopherols),
Natural Turkey Flavor,
Alfalfa Meal,
Whole Carrots,
Blueberries,
Cranberries,
Barley Grass,
Dried Parsley,
Dried Kelp,
Yucca Schidigera Extract,
L-Carnitine,
L-Lysine,*

BLUE Basics Grain Free Turkey dog food, a limited ingredient diet

Here is an updated photo of Roxie
<a href="http://s190.photobucket.com/albums/z81/hazards280/?action=view&current=2012-09-23141406-2_zps0b51d916.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://i190.photobucket.com/albums/z81/hazards280/2012-09-23141406-2_zps0b51d916.jpg" border="0" alt="Photobucket"></a>


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## Herzo (Feb 5, 2011)

She's a cute girl.


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## hazards280 (Jan 30, 2012)

Herzo said:


> She's a cute girl.


Thank You!


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## MNBark (Jan 23, 2013)

She's gorgeous, and the last picture shows a definite improvement.


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## Shamrockmommy (Sep 10, 2009)

Try giving her a daily digestive enzyme. My PWD has a terribly sensitive stomach, she gets one daily and it helps keep things normalized. Your girl is looking beautiful by the way


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## DaViking (Sep 27, 2011)

MNBark said:


> She's gorgeous, and the last picture shows a definite improvement.


And that from Eukanuba. Hmmmm...

To the OP; There is no upgrade in going to BB from Eukanuba imo.


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## Georgiapeach (Jan 24, 2011)

hazards280 said:


> Hello, all. I am the original poster on this thread and am back to give you a little update on Roxie's progress throughout last year.#1, I haven't been on here much as last year was very busy! Things are winding down a little and im going around to do some updates!
> 
> I tried getting Roxie to transition for a few weeks after this thread ended on 2-4-12 and she continued to have loose stool. I ended up deciding to go with a medium quality food "Eukanuba Large Breed" and she switched to that very nicely. She has since been on that however I have never really been happy with the choice as I know its not a great food. Today I started introduction Roxie to Blue Buffalo's line of Basics. This is a minimalistic food with lower protein (I think the last food was too rich) and the least ingredients. This particular version is grain free as well. It is the only basic one that is grain free however they are all no wheat , corn , soy, milk and egg. I hope this transitions nicely as it is very basic as far as ingredients go. I also hope the 7% fiber content helps make solid stool.
> 
> ...


She looks good! All dogs are different in which kibble works for them. A friend of mine, who used to breed/show GSDs, tried all the super premium kibbles, which caused her show dogs' coats to shed excessively, develop dandruff, cause liquid poos and lose too much weight. The only thing she found that her dogs could eat was Pro Plan Performance, which isn't the best food at all. I wouldn't feed it to my dogs, unless it was the only thing they could eat - apparently, that was the case with my friend's dogs. 

Sometimes dogs can't handle high protein or any grains. My boxer (another breed known for VERY sensitive stomachs) can't handle protein unless it's under 30% (I've tried several different brands); he also can't handle grains of any type. That's just the way he is. No sense stressing about it. He can't eat the "best" kibbles. He does well on Taste of the Wild Pacific Stream (25% protein) and on Wellness Simple Turkey and Potato, and Salmon and Potato (also protein less than 30%). Like I said, every dog is different.

Another kibble that many super sensitive dogs do well on is California Natural. It comes in many formulas, each with a limited protein source, and either grain inclusive, grain free with potato, or grain free with peas or legumes.


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## Shamrockmommy (Sep 10, 2009)

Plenty of show people use and swear by Eukanuba. It can put amazing coats on dogs, from what I've seen. Not something I'd feed personally, but not because I haven't tried it. My girls (bichons) did terribly on it with ear infections and started chewing their legs/feet to bits, staining their fur red.

Now, the comment about shedding caught my eye. I have a PWD with the "improper" coat, so her coat grows like a border collie's or golden retriever. And she sheds constantly. There is no seasonal shedding to it. Her coat is single coat from her head to the middle of her back, and the rest is double coat and it ALL sheds terribly. It's been one of the most frustrating things about her. Other than that she's my golden child  
I've tried fish oil and that doesn't do anything to stop the shedding at all.


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## monster'sdad (Jul 29, 2012)

DaViking said:


> And that from Eukanuba. Hmmmm...
> 
> To the OP; There is no upgrade in going to BB from Eukanuba imo.


I think the opposite, IMO


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## monster'sdad (Jul 29, 2012)

Shamrockmommy said:


> Plenty of show people use and swear by Eukanuba. It can put amazing coats on dogs, from what I've seen. Not something I'd feed personally, but not because I haven't tried it. My girls (bichons) did terribly on it with ear infections and started chewing their legs/feet to bits, staining their fur red.
> 
> Now, the comment about shedding caught my eye. I have a PWD with the "improper" coat, so her coat grows like a border collie's or golden retriever. And she sheds constantly. There is no seasonal shedding to it. Her coat is single coat from her head to the middle of her back, and the rest is double coat and it ALL sheds terribly. It's been one of the most frustrating things about her. Other than that she's my golden child
> I've tried fish oil and that doesn't do anything to stop the shedding at all.


You have a PWD that is double-coated? Do you have a copy of the pedigree?


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