# Opinions please! Sonya's "yin" needs strenghtening...



## SonyaBullyDog (Jun 6, 2011)

So, I just came home from a holistic vet that I've been meaning to try for Sonya's itchiness. Apparently, her chi is great but her yin/ yang is out of balance :biggrin: (I tried my hardest not to laugh during the appointment!)

Anyways, the vet seemed knowledgeable (except that she's convinced that dogs need veggies). She highly recommended a switch of diet to "cold" foods. She wants me to feed fish and duck together with green veggies, brown rice, sweet potato, greek yogurt, egg whites, and salmon oil capsules. This would be for 1 months after which I would be able to add more proteins one at a time. 

I told her that I was struggling with the idea of feeding the carbs to my dog, but she told me to have an open mind. I'm trying to decide if I should do it. I'm guessing 1 month of this would not hurt my dog, and if it did, I would just go back to my current diet. What's your opinion on this, should I try it? What would you do? I'm leaning towards trying it out...

Thanks!!


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## KittyKat (Feb 11, 2011)

I don't see how adding food would solve itchiness to be honest. The idea with food allergies (if they are that and not environmental) is to take away things until you have a baseline to work with.... not tossing in random things to see what happens.


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## DaneMama (Jun 27, 2008)

Did her itchiness just start? It may be due to the change in weather. Colder weather typically means dryer weather....Although I just now see that you're in FL, so never mind LOL.

But when did the itching start?


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## whiteleo (Sep 7, 2008)

You can try it out, I know lots of B.T. people who feed a barf diet who have good results. My real issue is with the carbs. B.T.'s are so prone to cysts a masses of benign and non benign types that I am hoping by keeping carbs out their diet that this will help NOT feed those outlets. But, that being said, every dog comes from different set of genes and Sonya may be just fine and never have a problem. I'd give it a try if you think she has merit in what she says.


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

that's a tough one, since there are so many allergies that are not food related....

i'd be leery about feeding starchy carbs to a dog, such as brown rice and sweet potatoes....i'd also be leery about feeding yoghurt to a dog....yoghurt doesn't stand a chance with a dog's stomach acids...so i don't know that it will do any good.

plus many dogs are lactose intolerant....

but, having said that....a month is an experiment....and you could try it and see.


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## nikkiluvsu15 (Jun 9, 2010)

Okay, so no advice as far as the diet/itchiness goes. However, you are in Gainesville?! That is so cool :smile: I'm over in the Alachua area every Monday for Harleigh's agility and we also visit Dogwood Park whenever we get the chance!


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## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

I'm still trying to get a grip on the yin/yang thing. I don't know why that seems so funny, but it does!

Someone told me the fung shwei (sp) in our house is bad because the staircase flows right to the front door. 

i wish I could help with the itching. The only thing I would be concerned about is if she has an allergy to something in all the new food, you won't know what it is.


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## SonyaBullyDog (Jun 6, 2011)

Thanks guys! So I think that I will try this as an experiment. I'm really not convinced but the vet did promise that all of her symptoms will go away magically and we will no longer need any medication for her. She does think that it's environmental allergies, but that once she regains "yin/yang balance" (lol), then magically everything will become great! I'm obviously very skeptical, but I'll try anything once! 

She did recommend dry/canned dog food with the fish and duck, but I flat-out refused, so she did think that it would be ok for me to "home-prepare" the ingredients myself. I think that she thought that I will buy filets of fish, but I will still stick to whole. Not sure if that is "cold" enough, but I guess we'll see! I'll start a thread in the barf section with photos of meals and the outcomes. I expect tons of scratching since I have stopped giving the hydroxyzine. Poor Sonya... 

Nikki, that's so awesome that you know Gainesville! I don't go to dogwood park, since it's expensive and I don't trust Sonya with little dogs... I do go to Squirel Ridge sometimes in the mornings when there is no one around. Maybe we could do a play date? Sonya is really obnoxious and rough when she plays though! Where do you do agility? I've been meaning to find a good one in Alachua county!

Danemama, Sonya has been itchy ever since we got her. So far, only hydroxyzine helps. 

Whiteleo, I really agree with you about the carbs. So that's why I'm so torn. But I guess I'll try and see how it goes...


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## DaneMama (Jun 27, 2008)

Have you tried supplementing with zinc? I've heard that can also relieve itching


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## Tobi (Mar 18, 2011)

I'd say it can't hurt, lol i giggled a bit at the yin/yang stuff, where are you finding these vets!! :lol:

But for a month sure go for it, and see what it does, like Robin said BT's can have soooooooooo many variables in their allergens, that's why i kinda always think that limited is better, but Sonya may thrive with the diet she's wanting to do! :becky:

Keep us posted!

And Natalie, i think she has been supplementing zinc, we've talked about it on another forum. and iirc she did start on a small dose i'm not sure if it ever helped.


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

some of the foods being recommended have zinc in them, so maybe that's why these particular foods are being recommended....

for a month, come over to the barf side and you can keep a log of what you're feeding and the symptoms each day.

you can join me with my experiment..just make your own thread .

i write down what they are fed daily and if i'm seeing hair growth or actually, what i'm seeing as a result...although my experiment will last six months...

for a month, it's like keeping a log so you can note if there is any improvement.


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## nikkiluvsu15 (Jun 9, 2010)

SonyaBullyDog said:


> Nikki, that's so awesome that you know Gainesville! I don't go to dogwood park, since it's expensive and I don't trust Sonya with little dogs... I do go to Squirel Ridge sometimes in the mornings when there is no one around. Maybe we could do a play date? Sonya is really obnoxious and rough when she plays though! Where do you do agility? I've been meaning to find a good one in Alachua county!


I've heard of Squirrel Ridge before - I think my obedience instructor used to take her dog there, but I've never been. Harleigh is crazy about small dogs, so she doesn't have a problem with them at Dogwood. I was paying by visit but broke down and got a park pass for $35 (I think its for 6 or 8 trips? Plus 2 free baths), I'm saving money this way. Harleigh doesn't like rough n tumble play.... her favorite thing is chase, but I think thats because she hasn't met another dog who can keep up with her. LOL However, we might have to try a playdate at some point :smile:

Oh, I go to agility at Windmill Agility Group, we've been going there for a little over a year now.


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## SonyaBullyDog (Jun 6, 2011)

Yeah, I've tried zinc, but maybe I need to go to much higher doses and for longer times to see results... I guess that will be the next thing if this doesn't work. 

I'll start a thread in the barf section as soon as she gets her first meal. I already bought the fish (3 different species!) and a duck ($3.50/lb, lucky dog...). I bought a sweet potato, frozen broccoli, and frozen green beans. I think I'll get the yogurt and the brown rice tomorrow. I asked what the percentages should be and the vet tech said about 50% meat, 50% veggies, 10-15% rice/potato, and a dab of yogurt (I guess vet techs don't take math classes :tongue: )


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## Tobi (Mar 18, 2011)

SonyaBullyDog said:


> Yeah, I've tried zinc, but maybe I need to go to much higher doses and for longer times to see results... I guess that will be the next thing if this doesn't work.
> 
> I'll start a thread in the barf section as soon as she gets her first meal. I already bought the fish (3 different species!) and a duck ($3.50/lb, lucky dog...). I bought a sweet potato, frozen broccoli, and frozen green beans. I think I'll get the yogurt and the brown rice tomorrow. I asked what the percentages should be and the vet tech said about 50% meat, 50% veggies, 10-15% rice/potato, and a dab of yogurt (I guess vet techs don't take math classes :tongue: )


Rofl... damn she's doing to get 115% 

Duck is way spendy, i haven't fed this yet lol he will probably get duck for thanksgiving  I really hope that it works for her!! poor baby.


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## rory (Oct 4, 2011)

Have you tried bathing her regularly with an anti-itch shampoo? A friend of mine has a similar problem with her lab, always itchy, and now she uses this special anti-itch shampoo by Virbac during allergy season and it really helped - just a thought.


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## SonyaBullyDog (Jun 6, 2011)

rory said:


> Have you tried bathing her regularly with an anti-itch shampoo? A friend of mine has a similar problem with her lab, always itchy, and now she uses this special anti-itch shampoo by Virbac during allergy season and it really helped - just a thought.


Yeah, she gets worse with any kind of medicated shampoos. I can only use hypoallergenic ones. The vet recommended (and many others) that I use vinegar as a wipe down to help with fungusy skin, and that seems to help with the smell, not so much the itchiness.


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## rory (Oct 4, 2011)

SonyaBullyDog said:


> Yeah, she gets worse with any kind of medicated shampoos. I can only use hypoallergenic ones. The vet recommended (and many others) that I use vinegar as a wipe down to help with fungusy skin, and that seems to help with the smell, not so much the itchiness.


so she has a fungal skin infection?

It seems your vet has essentially recommended an anti-inflammatory diet for your dog - can't hurt to try it. When you feed fish, you should probably stick to cold-water fish.


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## SonyaBullyDog (Jun 6, 2011)

rory said:


> so she has a fungal skin infection?
> 
> It seems your vet has essentially recommended an anti-inflammatory diet for your dog - can't hurt to try it. When you feed fish, you should probably stick to cold-water fish.


I think her overall immune system is really weak which lets all kinds of bacteria/ fungus/ etc grow. It seems that way, right? I asked her to "translate" the holistic talk into more conventional terms for me, but either she couldn't do it or I just didn't understand... But basically she did say that she wants her immune system to relax, which makes sense in terms of allergies. It's strange though, on one hand her immune system is overreacting but on another, it's not so functional (frequent infections). I guess we'll see what happens!

Also, what's cold water fish? I just bought sardines, carp, and milk fish. The guy in the store said that they were all river oily fish.


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## JayJayisme (Aug 2, 2009)

I understand the basics about the whole yin/yang thing. My wife is American-born Chinese, and I have a huge extended Chinese family. This comes up a lot in family discussions. 

The problem I see here is that your vet is applying human healing standards to your dog. Humans are omnivores, and dogs are carnivores (at least they are on this forum :biggrin: ). If my yin was supposedly off, I would eat more "cold" foods, such as melons and green tea (cha). But if my carnivore's yin was off, I'd feed it more meat from animals that eat a lot of plants, grasses to be specific. 

The problem with most meat we buy, including beef, chicken, pork, farmed fish, is they are fed a unnatural, grain-based diet. Grains are not natural food for anything but a few species of birds. Most grains are yang foods as they grow under the hot sun and are hard and dry (three characteristics of yang foods). Since carnivores are designed to receive the nutrients from plants second-hand, through the animals they eat, your dog is essentially getting yang food if you feed it commercially farmed meat.

I would lean more towards cold-water small fish, and grass fed/pastured meat (if you can afford it). Naturally raised, pastured meat comes from animals that have eaten a proper ancestral diet and contain a much better nutrient profile than their commercial counterparts, and are considered more neutral in Chinese medicine (so I'm told). Grain-raised meat is out of balance (yang) so if your dog eats it, it too gets out of balance. But it should continue with a meat-based diet so try more neutral meats.

Personally, I think the whole yin/yang thing is a crock and I've yet to find a single holistic practitioner who has helped solve a single heath issue of my own. My wife's family tell me it doesn't work on me "because I don't believe in it". My response is that if I have to believe in it in order for it to work, that is by definition a placebo effect, which makes it a crock.

But, if that's the path you want to follow, I'd at least make sure it is appropriate advice for a carnivore, not a human.


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## whiteleo (Sep 7, 2008)

JayJayisme said:


> I understand the basics about the whole yin/yang thing. My wife is American-born Chinese, and I have a huge extended Chinese family. This comes up a lot in family discussions.
> 
> The problem I see here is that your vet is applying human healing standards to your dog. Humans are omnivores, and dogs are carnivores (at least they are on this forum :biggrin: ). If my yin was supposedly off, I would eat more "cold" foods, such as melons and green tea (cha). But if my carnivore's yin was off, I'd feed it more meat from animals that eat a lot of plants, grasses to be specific.
> 
> ...



I couldn't agree more as far as the grass fed meats are concerned. I've never really had this issue since I only feed beef that is grass fed, and buy lots of stuff from my co-op which sells mostly grass fed proteins. I'm sure that my girl would have way more issues if I in fact just fed her a commercial farmed diet.

You have to do what you can afford, but Jay brings up very good points.


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## rory (Oct 4, 2011)

SonyaBullyDog said:


> I think her overall immune system is really weak which lets all kinds of bacteria/ fungus/ etc grow. It seems that way, right? I asked her to "translate" the holistic talk into more conventional terms for me, but either she couldn't do it or I just didn't understand... But basically she did say that she wants her immune system to relax, which makes sense in terms of allergies. It's strange though, on one hand her immune system is overreacting but on another, it's not so functional (frequent infections). I guess we'll see what happens!
> 
> Also, what's cold water fish? I just bought sardines, carp, and milk fish. The guy in the store said that they were all river oily fish.


Sardine and Carp are good - I don't know anything about milkfish.

Does she have any bald patches on her skin?


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## Tobi (Mar 18, 2011)

SonyaBullyDog said:


> Also, what's cold water fish? I just bought sardines, carp, and milk fish. The guy in the store said that they were all river oily fish.


Coldwater fish are generally species like mackerel, sardines, salmon, shad, herring, i think anchovies as well...

I think carp is a big gold fish :lol: and i'm not sure what a milk fish is... did they want you to get those for O3's?


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## cprcheetah (Jul 14, 2010)

If she has a tendancy to get yeasty....yeast feeds on carbs so adding rice to the diet may not be the best idea. My Zoey was SUPER DUPER itchy forever, about 3 months into feeding raw and she was no longer itchy, she hasn't had any allergy problems for about a year now. She gets just Prey Model Raw.


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## SonyaBullyDog (Jun 6, 2011)

Thanks for all of the awesome information! I'm really not a spiritual person and really can't believe in anything that is not logical. For me, it is logical that dogs are carnivores, and that some foods may have anti-inflammatory properties. It is also logical that O3's will help. It's not logical for me that duck would differ much from chicken or turkey (as I understand duck is considered "cold" while chicken and turkey "hot"). It makes sense for me to feed my dog grass-raised beef as the basis of the diet. It makes no sense to include any carbs as part of an actual diet plan.

However, the vet begged me to try it and promised that it will solve all of my issues. So this is more of a last-hope/desperation approach.

My goal will always to be feed a natural diet (which is PMR in my opinion).

About the fish, I just got the cheapest fish they had and made sure that they were not from the pacific and not tilapia (I heard that it's a useless fish in terms of O3's)

She doesn't have any bald patches any more since we started the hydroxyzine. But now we'll end it.... poor sonya... I won't let her get really bad, if she does, I'm going back!


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## SonyaBullyDog (Jun 6, 2011)

JayJayisme said:


> I understand the basics about the whole yin/yang thing. My wife is American-born Chinese, and I have a huge extended Chinese family. This comes up a lot in family discussions.
> 
> The problem I see here is that your vet is applying human healing standards to your dog. Humans are omnivores, and dogs are carnivores (at least they are on this forum :biggrin: ). If my yin was supposedly off, I would eat more "cold" foods, such as melons and green tea (cha). But if my carnivore's yin was off, I'd feed it more meat from animals that eat a lot of plants, grasses to be specific.
> 
> ...


So, if I want to give this yin/yang a try, I should do fish/grass-fed beef/ grass-fed any other animal (so no grain-fed pork or poultry?) What's the natural food for turkey/chicken? I thought it was grains/insects...

Or do you think the vet is more concerned with the carnivore vs omnivore problem and not the hot vs cold problem... I'm not sure...


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## rory (Oct 4, 2011)

SonyaBullyDog said:


> Thanks for all of the awesome information! I'm really not a spiritual person and really can't believe in anything that is not logical. For me, it is logical that dogs are carnivores, and that some foods may have anti-inflammatory properties. It is also logical that O3's will help. It's not logical for me that duck would differ much from chicken or turkey (as I understand duck is considered "cold" while chicken and turkey "hot"). It makes sense for me to feed my dog grass-raised beef as the basis of the diet. It makes no sense to include any carbs as part of an actual diet plan.
> 
> However, the vet begged me to try it and promised that it will solve all of my issues. So this is more of a last-hope/desperation approach.
> 
> ...


I just want to make sure - has the vet ruled out ringworm?


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## SonyaBullyDog (Jun 6, 2011)

rory said:


> I just want to make sure - has the vet ruled out ringworm?


I have never heard that potential diagnosis from either the old vet (very traditional, but open to raw) and this new slightly wacky one. What makes you say that?

edit: I just looked it up. Seems that the allergy/immune system problems diagnosis seems to be more parsimonious, no? There is no red circle and the itchiness is generalized, as well as the fungus...


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## rory (Oct 4, 2011)

Ringworm is a fungal skin infection, leads to bald/scaly circular patches in dogs, and can cause secondary bacterial infections in the skin that cause itchiness - I would look up the symptoms and if they fit, go see a vet who can do a culture. Environmental allergies is really a diagnosis of exclusion, so your vet should have ruled out mange, ringworm, etc. before diagnosing allergies. Your old vet might have, but it doesn't hurt to make sure.


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## Donna Little (May 31, 2011)

I have a couple of dogs with skin issues so I can feel your pain. I don't know if Sonya's skin is always a small problem but then flares up at times? All of mine are on PMR and I've been discouraged about Toby's skin. A few weeks ago it was suddenly worse and he was making raw places all over himself from scratching and just looked miserable. Then as fast as it came on it was gone. So I wonder if since both of us are in the south if there's just not something external (seasonal allergies) causing some of the skin issues. Also I think Toby may have been eating raw a few weeks longer than Sonya so like everyone has been telling me, give it a little time. Toby is at the 5 month point and for the first time since being on raw his skin looks genuinely better. 
I posted about his skin a few weeks ago and it looked awful. Then Zoey's mom told me it took her about 6 months to start seeing the results of PMR in her Chihuahuas skin and apparently Toby is going to be the same because suddenly my boy's skin looks almost normal. Maybe Sonya just needs a couple more months of raw eating. 
Whatever you decide to do I hope it works for you guys. It's never fun to see your baby itching and not be able to find relief for them. Best of luck!


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

and my pug did the opposite....ten months in, he went from wonderful to bald LOL


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## whiteleo (Sep 7, 2008)

Crusting 1.doc







Crusting 2.doc 

this might be useful info, it is about the zinc defiency in B.T.'s Hope you can open it!


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## SonyaBullyDog (Jun 6, 2011)

So maybe this should be a poll... Who think I should try the added veggies? Who thinks I should stick to PMR for a longer time?


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## whiteleo (Sep 7, 2008)

How long exactly have you been feeding a PMR diet? And if it hasn't been at least 6-8 months I'd say give it a go, but you have to eliminate all bad things from her system too like the itchy pills, vaccinations etc. She does need a chance for the diet to help build up her immune system and it will do that if you aren't also putting foreign things into it as well.


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## cprcheetah (Jul 14, 2010)

SonyaBullyDog said:


> So maybe this should be a poll... Who think I should try the added veggies? Who thinks I should stick to PMR for a longer time?


How long have you been feeding Raw? Personally I am of the opinion that veggies should not be needed. I have been through the whole severe allergies thing with Zoey she was scratching herself until she bleeds. I was about to give up, but knew I had to stick with it. Any time you switch diets you have to stick with it for at least 12 weeks/3 months before you give up.


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## SonyaBullyDog (Jun 6, 2011)

I started 6/5/2011, so 5 months ago.

Now I'm even more lost on what to do... It's hard to resist a vet telling you that whatever I'm feeding is "obviously" not working for Sonya...


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## cprcheetah (Jul 14, 2010)

SonyaBullyDog said:


> I started 6/5/2011, so 5 months ago.
> 
> Now I'm even more lost on what to do... It's hard to resist a vet telling you that whatever I'm feeding is "obviously" not working for Sonya...


I would bet it is environmental and not food allergies. Although I have heard of some dogs that are allergic to certain proteins in raw form as well. Has she ever been scraped for Sarcoptic Mange? that can make them mega itchy and it's kind of hard to diagnose. My dad did 4 scrapings on Ziva and only found 1 dead mite on her. She was getting itchy and losing hair so I had her checked. Maybe try doing an elimination diet like feed pork only for a few weeks then add a different protein and keep track of her symptoms.


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## SonyaBullyDog (Jun 6, 2011)

cprcheetah said:


> I would bet it is environmental and not food allergies. Although I have heard of some dogs that are allergic to certain proteins in raw form as well. Has she ever been scraped for Sarcoptic Mange? that can make them mega itchy and it's kind of hard to diagnose. My dad did 4 scrapings on Ziva and only found 1 dead mite on her. She was getting itchy and losing hair so I had her checked. Maybe try doing an elimination diet like feed pork only for a few weeks then add a different protein and keep track of her symptoms.


I already did the exclusion diet when switching to raw. The vet is not denying that she is allergic to everything in the world. It's just that she think that because her yin/yang is not balanced, she is not reacting normally to allergens/stressors in the environment. I doubt that's it's mange... she isn't losing hair except when she itched some parts raw when without hydroxizine...


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

SonyaBullyDog said:


> I started 6/5/2011, so 5 months ago.
> 
> Now I'm even more lost on what to do... It's hard to resist a vet telling you that whatever I'm feeding is "obviously" not working for Sonya...


as you get more into raw, it gets easier and easier to resist a vet....no offence to your vet.

thing is, i don't think your dog has been on raw long enough to gain all of the benefits of raw.

i suspect that my dogs are missing omega threes, and the veggies and fruits are not part of what's going on....but i said i'd do this experiment for six months and then eliminate....my dogs are raw fed for over a year and a half....plus, he started going bald ten months into raw....and still i didn't change until well october 8. see?

if you want to do this for a month, it's not going to hurt your dog, but what's wrong with her that she needs a change?


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## barneysmom2510 (Oct 12, 2011)

I have to say I see a holistic vet and she has never talked abot any of my dog's ying yang. How long has she been itchy I don't understand if she thinks it is enviornmental why adding more to her diet would help. That seems to be a risky way to get a food allergy all of a sudden adding all that to your dog's diet.


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## SonyaBullyDog (Jun 6, 2011)

barneysmom2510 said:


> I have to say I see a holistic vet and she has never talked abot any of my dog's ying yang. How long has she been itchy I don't understand if she thinks it is enviornmental why adding more to her diet would help. That seems to be a risky way to get a food allergy all of a sudden adding all that to your dog's diet.


Yeah I know it's not what I would except would help. She seemed VERY convinced that I would see huge results in 4 weeks, so I figured why not try... I still haven't had the courage to add dairy or rice/oatmeal though...


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