# Allergy, Vet and Raw Food Drama



## BUTTERS (Mar 14, 2012)

New to this forum but not new to the raw food diet. We have a Min Pin that has been eating chicken thighs for almost 4 years now. We started after he has major skin allergies while eating kibbles. I believe it was Innova we had him on. Well, we switched and he loved it. The allergies were always back and forth though. We would feed him veggies with the chicken but over time we stopped. Just chicken thigh and omega3.

We noticed very sharp pieces of bone always left on the floor after he ate. Like he knew not to eat them. So, we always waited until he was done and threw away the rest. Over time, the allergies still there.

Recently he had very bloody stool caused by congestion infection. His stool had very sharp shards and and he got very lethargic. We had him treated with Science Diet(vets request),little bit of raw chicken, with Stella's as a treat mixed in with Pedialyte. Also daily meds. The infection went away very quickly and his skin cleared up for the first time in years. 

We then slowly went back into a RAW diet but this time chicken with no bone. Raw chicken mixed with Primal chicken that has veggies. He eventually got worse. Allergies worse and a bit of spotting stool. So, we just went straight to CHICKEN. No bone. 

He got better and a month later it starts again. Allergies back. Loosing hair,biting,scratching and now ear infection leading to a a swollen ear that may need surgery. Went to the vet and he said that he wasn't against the RAW food diet, but firmly believes that no other nutrients (veggies etc) will cause these allergies. Which we have done before and he still had the allergies. He's just worse this time. 

We're thinking of doing something new to his diet. Sadly to say, how can the science diet help him so much before? Was it a fluke? Our options right now is meds for ear and then to do testing for allergies. But food wise, there is nothing he is eating that could cause the allergies. Unless, not having just chicken with no bone, no veggies the problem?

I'm thinking since he is a Min Pin that he is experiencing .....Alopecia in Miniature Pinschers 

We want to feed him bones, but the sharp pieces have scared us off a bit. We don't want to have 4 years of RAW to have 1 bad day of a sharp piece making its way in wrong. As we believe the cause of the bloody stool before. Also, we don't know why he would need veggies. Might as well switch to a kibble like Orijin. Not to hate on kibbles but making the choices are getting exhausting. 

Any insight or pep talk would do wonders for us right now. We been thinking of continuing the raw chicken with a bit of grinded up kibble(orijin) on top OR back to a raw primal mixed with veggies/bone. Not to agree with the vet, but the best he ever was with the Science Diet. I'm sure his teeth would hate us later.

Thanks in advance.


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## Kat (Jul 12, 2011)

Did I read that correctly? You have just been feeding nothing but chicken thighs for the past 4 years? With raw, the more protein sources the better, and the more protein sources, the less chance there is for allergies to develop. Raw fed dogs need bone for the calcium and firming up of stools. You cant feed a raw dog no bone. My dog still poops out shards of bone, it is completely normal. Their body uses what it needs. If you want to stick with raw, you really need to intro more proteins, especially red meat. Chicken is the lowest in nutrients, I could not imagine feeding only chicken to my dog. I feed chicken, turkey, sardines, salmon, pork, lamb, beef, rabbit, eggs, and liver so far. I still will be introing other proteins in the future. *Variety is key* 

There is no need to be scared of raw chicken bones, they are soft, and usually a dog will not swallow something that is too big for them. My pug chomps down 3 times on a chicken wing and swallows it, no issues thus far. 

Science Diet is awful, it masks the problem for a while but then it comes back full force, or even worse. Read the ingredients, its nothing but by-products and fillers. You really need to look into a better version of raw. A lot of people on this forum follow Prey Model Raw (PMR) diet, this is the one I also follow. Here is the site, please read through it How to Get Started | Prey Model Raw


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## Ania's Mommy (Feb 8, 2009)

In very basic terms, a prey model raw diet consists of mostly meat, some bone, and some organ. All from a variety of different animals.

Ditch all the food you're feeding except the bone-in chicken.

Add in other types of meat (ie: beef, pork, fish, turkey, etc. Really, any kind of meat you can get your hands on).

ADD IN ORGANS. This is very important, as organs (liver and kidney especially) are chock full of nutrients that meat & bones don't have.

Please PLEASE look over that site that Kat posted above. I think you'll find that if you follow the instructions there, many of your issues will go away.


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## Dude and Bucks Mamma (May 14, 2011)

I am with the others. Just chicken is not enough. My guys, on a regular basis get chicken, beef, and fish with the occasional lamb, pork, venison and other wild game as often as I can get it. 

Organs should be ten percent of his diet. I feed primarily beef liver and beef kidney along with those organs from other animals when I can get it. If I have to, I will even buy tubs of chicken livers just so that they are getting organs from more than one animal.


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## dustinshaw98 (Feb 22, 2012)

Ania's Mommy said:


> In very basic terms, a prey model raw diet consists of mostly meat, some bone, and some organ. All from a variety of different animals.
> 
> Ditch all the food you're feeding except the bone-in chicken.
> 
> ...



I ditch the organs, too, especially beef liver. I stick to raw meaty bones for dog food.


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## DeekenDog (Aug 29, 2011)

dustinshaw98 said:


> I ditch the organs, too, especially beef liver. I stick to raw meaty bones for dog food.


No, organs are essential. The dog needs organs to get proper nutrition. 

I agree with everyone else. Your dog needs more than just chicken and needs bone in his diet. I would use the getting started guide above.


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## Scarlett_O' (May 19, 2011)

I agree with the everyone else variety is key when feeding raw....just one cut of chicken is not enough!




.


dustinshaw98 said:


> I ditch the organs, too, especially beef liver. I stick to raw meaty bones for dog food.


Ditch the organs????:wacko:


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## Love my lab (Dec 9, 2010)

Feeding raw it is so important to not feed just one protien especially with out any other source of nutrition. Chicken for 4 years could be why your dog is having problems. I am sorry your dog is having problems. I would read the pmr link and feed the dog following it closely. It ALL is important and is valuable for nutrition. Most vets don't agree with raw but there are a lot of people here that can help you with your dog and answer any questions you have.


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## Tobi (Mar 18, 2011)

dustinshaw98 said:


> I ditch the organs, too, especially beef liver. I stick to raw meaty bones for dog food.


:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: 


As for the OP, sounds like the dog needs some variety. like others have said, less chicken, more beef (heart, tongue, muscle meats of various sorts, liver, kidney) venison, anything you can get your hands on... feed it and follow the guide outlined on the previous posts.


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## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

Science Diet is a temporary fix. The stuff in there cannot sustain a dog - it helps for a little bit so you say WOW this stuff is great, but it doesn't last. And the ingredients are awful. Just the worst of the worst.

I agree with the others - a diet of chicken thighs is sorely lacking as raw diet. Your dog needs other stuff. Shoot, you might just ditch the chicken completely (or feed it very sparingly) and go to turkey, pork, and beef. And organs. Get rib bones or turkey necks for her to gnaw on for her teeth. 

Good luck. I know allergies can be very frustrating.


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## Ania's Mommy (Feb 8, 2009)

dustinshaw98 said:


> I ditch the organs, too, especially beef liver. I stick to raw meaty bones for dog food.


I wholeheartedly disagree with this, but I'm curious as to why you ESPECIALLY wouldn't feed beef liver.


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## ciaBrysh (Dec 16, 2011)

dustinshaw98 said:


> I ditch the organs, too, especially beef liver. I stick to raw meaty bones for dog food.


Idk..troll? Crazy person? Someone who CLEARLY didn't do any research???:der:

op2: Regardless...this should be fun lol


To the OP DO NOT DITCH THE ORGANS THAT YOU HAVE NOT FED YET!
Get some variety in that dogs diet the proper way and I am confident that her problems will change =)


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## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

ciaBrysh said:


> To the OP DO NOT DITCH THE ORGANS THAT YOU HAVE NOT FED YET!


I don't know why, but I think that is hilarious. And so true!


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## sozzle (May 18, 2011)

Could it be a typo and that there was a word or too missing with dustinshaw98? however this person has chimed in with some random comments at times and that I have wondered at? apologies if I am wrong though.

Yes variety is the key, please don't give up on your raw feeding and don't only feed chicken - how boring is that for your dog?
Good luck.


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## BUTTERS (Mar 14, 2012)

Thanks everyone for the positive input. Butters has been eating chicken for the past few years as his main diet. I didn't specify the extras on the side. He does get turkey,sardines,chicken feet,neck. It was more of a mix on the side. Kind of side dishes but definitely not his main meal. He did get a lot of beef on the side. Our freezer has been a very busy. 

So, after the stomach infection and skin problems. We did Vet's diet. After the 2 week science diet. He was all good. We ended it and we recently started doing nothing but Chicken with no bone(sharp uneat'n pieces scared us). It's been about 1 month. Then we changed it to a local Chick Primal mix. Its Pre-package of RAW chicken,bone,mixed with veggies etc. Plus adding beef and other goodies. Stellas sprinkled on top made his day. Just because feeding him variety does make him fancy dinner time. After a month of 2 later he has more skin problems. No bloody stool though. He got worse with the skin. We didn't think any of his food has a cause to his skin, but the Vet believes it could. Especially since the science diet the best he ever look.

So, we're thinking of going all local RAW Primal Package(chicken,turkey,beef mixes) plus DermaCaps and random goodies. Another thing is to scrap it up and get a good quality kibble. Easy serving, no one I know seems to have problems with their babies on it. Add some raw meat and bones as a side treat. Not that it's good to mix kibbles and raw, but a little shouldn't hurt.

Right now he's eating Primal Package mix, Stella's, DermaCaps and scraps from the inside of full chicken. He seems to be getting better again. We're starting to believe he has allergies but it has nothing to do with his diet. It may just be his breed. Downfall of package is that he doesn't get to chew bone, it's pre grinded. His teeth love the bone. We just scared about what we saw and how sharp those pieces were many times. Vet said that could of cut him going down.

Sorry to confuse anyone, but it was late and when I say chicken, I mean..chicken thigh but from a whole chicken. He does get the insides w/veggies grinded in the bullet. lol I was stating that if I'm going to continue the chicken, no bone etc that I might as well do a kibble because it's not doing much.
I'm sure we could do better mixing up the beef but we limit the beef. 

Sorry for the sporadic info. lol

Thanks again for all the comments and especially the link.

Anyone do 1/2? Raw with a good brand of kibble?


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## Dude and Bucks Mamma (May 14, 2011)

Lots of people on this forum feed 1/2 and 1/2. I'm sure someone will chime in. 

Just please, don't listen to the one person who said to ditch the organs. Organs are essential in a raw fed dog's diet.


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## GoingPostal (Sep 5, 2011)

If he has allergies, adding in more items to his diet with either veggies, ground mixes or kibble is not going to help matters, just make it harder to pin down. Can you give a sample of what his normal raw diet would be, amounts? Are you feeding organs? Only chicken thighs and necks for bone is a lot of bone if he's getting that on a daily basis, you only want 10% bone in meals and the rest meat, plus some organs, his issues could be due to diet imbalance. The more variety the better and if the chicken is grocery store stuff it really isn't very nutritious.


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## mwplay (Oct 10, 2010)

I've had a dog with on/off allergies, GI issues also, and DID rotate proteins. Chicken was my primary bone source, but muscle meat was lamb, beef, turkey, fish, pork, etc...

I would recommend you drop the chicken entirely. In Traditional Chinese Medicine (TCM), chicken is considered a warming/hot food. Often times, chicken can be inflammatory and cause itching, scratching, exacerbating allergies, etc. Lamb and venison are considered "hot". If your dog is having issues, try moving him to a cooler meat - duck, rabbit, pork, sardines. I use duck as my bone source (carcasses/necks) and add in pork or beef (beef is considered neutral), turkey, tripe, fish etc for muscle meat.

If you do a Google search on Traditional Chinese Medicine food properties dogs, you'll find lots of information.

I moved my boy off chicken and have had fantastic results. No more itching, scratching, yeasty feet, GI issues.

Might be something to consider.


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## brandypup (Jan 23, 2012)

Have you considered chinese medicain and the way bodies reposnd to food? When my beagle got itchy and red skin it was also warm tothe touch. He is on limited vaccines and so this wasn't neccasarly ffrom a vaccine. (vaccines can cause allergies) I feed raw, I had read Four Paws Five direction a while back and rememberd about hot and cool foods. Well it turned out I was feeding mostly hot food (Chicken) which comes through the skin as warm and hot (dry itchy ect). I can't always feed cool or neutral foods (beef, pork) so when I feed chicken that week I make sure he has the rest of the meals in cooling foods. (pork, certain grains and veggies becuase that is what I feed). It's a temendous differncce in skin condditions. there is also stuff on dampness and drynees and some other factors. It's a great book. 

The FOOD Files: Chinese Diet

Amazon.com: Four Paws, Five Directions: A Guide to Chinese Medicine for Cats and Dogs (9780890877906): Cheryl Schwartz, Mark Ed. Schwartz: Books

I hope you find a good solution.


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## NewYorkDogue (Sep 27, 2011)

mwplay-- thank you for some useful info. I am assuming the same foods would also affect humans in the same way?

Another reason to rotate meat sources...


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## NewYorkDogue (Sep 27, 2011)

brandypup-- haha you must have been posting as I was writing my reply to mwplay..

Thanks for the links; I always like learning about ancient theories and practices....


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## ciaBrysh (Dec 16, 2011)

I can't imagine doing both raw and kibble being beneficial to your dog at this point in time. 
You also really shouldn't be so wary of chicken bones. Stick to larger chicken bones if you are that worried such as quarters or backs (I think even breast with bone in should do fine) 
Everything will work out =) You just need to have the patience to go thru the stages


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## naturalfeddogs (Jan 6, 2011)

Think about it like this. If YOU only ate one thing, and one thing only for years, you would be lacking LOTS of important nutrients and probably not feel good. A raw diet is exactly the same. Thats the whole point of variety. To get ALL of the needed nutrients spread out over a period of time.


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## frogdog (Aug 10, 2011)

I was thinking the entire time reading your post...*why not stop feeding chicken*...maybe just maybe it's the chicken.

My dog is allergic to pork...if he eats it...he will have almost every symptom your dog is experiencing. Been there done that...lesson learned.

Like everyone has said more red meat and choose a different bone-in protein such as quail, duck or turkey necks....*VARIETY *is *VERY* important especially for allergy dogs.

Good luck...dealing with allergies are a real b--ch...I know.


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

mwplay said:


> I've had a dog with on/off allergies, GI issues also, and DID rotate proteins. Chicken was my primary bone source, but muscle meat was lamb, beef, turkey, fish, pork, etc...
> 
> I would recommend you drop the chicken entirely. In Traditional Chinese Medicine (TCM), chicken is considered a warming/hot food. Often times, chicken can be inflammatory and cause itching, scratching, exacerbating allergies, etc. Lamb and venison are considered "hot". If your dog is having issues, try moving him to a cooler meat - duck, rabbit, pork, sardines. I use duck as my bone source (carcasses/necks) and add in pork or beef (beef is considered neutral), turkey, tripe, fish etc for muscle meat.
> 
> ...


i also do not feed chicken. my dogs are ever so much better for it.

i will use quail and duck necks for bone, tho. and they are fine with that. i also do not feed chicken eggs.

i feed quail eggs.


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## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

If you feed a bunch of different stuff, you will never know what it causing the allergy.

My suggestion is to throw out the chicken and feed ONE protein for several weeks. Say, pork or turkey. See how the allergies are. If they are good, add in another protein, etc. 

If you want to feed a grind, get one protein in a grind, not several and one with alot of different ingredients. It needs to be only one thing. 

Then, you will know.


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## Gally (Jan 28, 2012)

frogdog said:


> I was thinking the entire time reading your post...*why not stop feeding chicken*...maybe just maybe it's the chicken.
> 
> My dog is allergic to pork...if he eats it...he will have almost every symptom your dog is experiencing. Been there done that...lesson learned.


This is exactly what I was thinking. My last dog was allergic to lamb and had very similar symptoms. Why not cut out the chicken and go to a different protein for 2+ weeks and see if he gets better?


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## bett (Mar 15, 2012)

maybe the dog developed a chicken allergy?
i'd switch to basically lamb (god knows why but they tell me this is the best for a dog with allergies) and thank goodness my husband is a butcher because not only does he grind the wretched stuff, but i make him boil it at the shop. the smell, in the microwave is enough to make me hurl.
but, i also want to add, that i don't think if you are feeding raw, you should only be feeding one protein source. and liver and organ meets should be part of the diet at some time as well .
i tried all raw, supplementing with whatever else they needed , but this one can't eat that, and the other one won't eat that, and the newest one barfs from raw. so.....i'm back to kibble and having my own issues and just posted re lamb kibble.


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## Blueszz (Oct 25, 2011)

I was thinking also about an allergy to chicken protein. One of my dogs is allergic to all birds I tried: chicken, pheasant, quail, duck, new guinea fowl + eggs.
Chicken egg allergy doesn't have to go along with chicken meat allergy but is very common. Also, I know a few dogs from a Dutch raw feeding community that are as my dog are allergic to all bird proteins. It's seems to happen more often than I could think off. Also I know from one dog that can't eat chicken raised in production farms but he can eat organic chicken.
I your case I would start an elimination diet with 1 single protein, something she never had before and stay away from birds to begin with.

Nicole


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## funshine (Jan 21, 2010)

This might have been mentioned already, but is the chicken un-enhanced for sure?
Many chicken cuts are high in sodium that might cause the issue...


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## bett (Mar 15, 2012)

Raw meaty bones, as a supervised treat, are a great way to clean your dogs teeth.the marrow ( we use marrow bones) could be too rich for first timers ,so you can either scoop some out, or give the bone for 20 minuts, rinse off, and refreeze.
Even tho mine are back on kibble, they do get raw meaty bones.
And, as i said, nick being a butcher is good and bad.he has preconceived notions regarding certain bones and meats (even chicken bones, except for necks) and i was mainly into chicken or turkey necks, giblets. Meanwhile, raw doesnt work for my 3 equally and i'm back to kibble.
For now.


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## Ania's Mommy (Feb 8, 2009)

bett said:


> Raw meaty bones, as a supervised treat, are a great way to clean your dogs teeth.the marrow ( we use marrow bones) could be too rich for first timers ,so you can either scoop some out, or give the bone for 20 minuts, rinse off, and refreeze.
> Even tho mine are back on kibble, they do get raw meaty bones.
> And, as i said, nick being a butcher is good and bad.he has preconceived notions regarding certain bones and meats (even chicken bones, except for necks) and i was mainly into chicken or turkey necks, giblets. Meanwhile, raw doesnt work for my 3 equally and i'm back to kibble.
> For now.


Be careful with those marrow bones. Check this out: http://dogfoodchat.com/forum/general-dog-discussion/4157-why-ill-never-give-dog-marrow-bone.html I don't personally think the risk is worth the benefit. 

Sounds like even though you're not currently feeding full raw, it might be something you'd consider working on...? I hope you do look into it more, because it really is worthwhile. Some dogs can be a bit of a pain to switch over and figure out what works for them. But once you do figure out what works, you won't regret it. :smile: So while you're clicking links, click on this one: Dedicated to proper carnivore nutrition - Prey Model Raw Feeding for Dogs & Cats :becky:


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## brandypup (Jan 23, 2012)

That could happen with any bone though. Not dissing pup with missing tooth though. My firends dog choked on a bone then the bone got stuck in the mouth and the vet had to remove it. Doesn't make all bones bad. But it definitly is something to watch for.


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## Ania's Mommy (Feb 8, 2009)

brandypup said:


> That could happen with any bone though. Not dissing pup with missing tooth though. My firends dog choked on a bone then the bone got stuck in the mouth and the vet had to remove it. Doesn't make all bones bad. But it definitly is something to watch for.


The chances that a dog is going to fracture a tooth on a chicken/pork/venison/other smallish animal bone is far less than the chances of fracturing a tooth on a large animal's bone. Beef bones are extremely dense because they have to support a great deal of weight. 

Choking on a bone isn't something that I worry about, as choking on kibble and/or socks is a far more likely occurrence. 

You are correct, bones are not bad at all. But there are so many other bones that are GREAT and pose very little risk, that beef bones aren't something I feel the need to feed. 

Back to the OP (sorry I got a little sidetracked), I think that you need to simplify your diet and cut out all processed foods. If the issues really are from a food allergy, there is no way to tell WHAT food it's coming from whey you feed as diversely as you've described. 

Feed mostly meat, some bone, and some organ from a variety of animals. Nothing else. I mean NOTHING. Not until you get this thing figured out. :thumb:


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

Blueszz said:


> I was thinking also about an allergy to chicken protein. One of my dogs is allergic to all birds I tried: chicken, pheasant, quail, duck, new guinea fowl + eggs.
> Chicken egg allergy doesn't have to go along with chicken meat allergy but is very common. Also, I know a few dogs from a Dutch raw feeding community that are as my dog are allergic to all bird proteins. It's seems to happen more often than I could think off. Also I know from one dog that can't eat chicken raised in production farms but he can eat organic chicken.
> I your case I would start an elimination diet with 1 single protein, something she never had before and stay away from birds to begin with.
> 
> Nicole


i think i've read that feeding the same protein for years and years ...would possibly cause a reaction after a while.

we don't feed chicken here, because they are fed a vegetarian diet of grains, corn and soy. i figure that affects the chickens....so if a dog is only eating chicken, perhaps the allergen is corn or soy, which is common in dogs.


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## bett (Mar 15, 2012)

well, i 've tried feeding raw. i have 3 labs and the newest one just barfs it up. of course , i've tried more than once but basically, i have fed chicken or turkey necks, and the organs. nick is a butcher so it's not hard for me to get (prime yet) stuff, but each one seems to have their issues. nick doesn't like certain bones and rex, is a goat (inhales, doesn't chew, even if broken into relatively bite size pieces. ) guess i could have nick grind the stuff for me, but somehow i always end up with a pile of barf, somewhere , and finding out who the barter is has started to outweigh the benefits. i've had him read all the stuff i can find regarding bones being eaten, but he's not budging. we've supplemented with all the stuff you need , if feeding raw. it just seems as a 'treat' for my guys at this time.
and the marrow bones, are cut so they can't get stuck in their mouths (i've heard those stories too) , watched carefully so that after the meaty part is gone and the marrow is gone, the bone is usually a day away from being thrown out. i have heard about fractures and my newest girl is a power chewer so i really haven't been even giving them their weekly bones. i am a chicken at heart , i think but rex's teeth, who we brush just about daily, seem to need those bones. the others have bright white teeth. rex developed crude and the crude is hard to get off with daily brushing.
i'm stuck.


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## Caty M (Aug 13, 2010)

The barfing could just be from taking it too quickly. Some dogs are more sensitive than others and should be switched very slowly, no organs until months in as per the guide written by Natalie. Some dogs are fine right off the bat. Mixing kibble and raw can cause barfing too- even if the kibble meal was more than twelve hours before the raw meal.


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