# Regarding the Alpha Debate



## spookychick13

Dog Training: Animal Experts Debunk the Alpha-Dog Myth - TIME

I found this to be a pretty interesting read.


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## ruckusluvr

yeah i have been knowing about this for about a year now. 
there is even some debate that does are NOT even pack animals. much-less have an alpha.

who knows... no one is a dog. i bet the dogs themselves dont even know.


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## DaneMama

There is no one true alpha in our pack. If I were to classify them in a hierarchy I would put Bailey on top. But she is not always alpha, just depends on the situation. Sometimes Emmy gets a hair up her butt and decides she's top dog LOL

ETA: Cesar Millan is a hack and a fraud. I dislike him greatly!


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## spookychick13

I am surprised it isn't Shiloh!


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## DaneMama

Her and Bailey but heads but Shiloh almost always backs down or walks away. Especially when Bailey means business. They have gotten into it a few times (in the past but not lately) and they just put up with each other now.


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## spookychick13

I don't think either of our dogs are in charge to be honest...it's definitely Echo the African Grey.
Ha. She let them both know who is boss right away.
She actually likes Jack but still hates Flip. Brat.

Flip has a screaming monkey toy and we call it "Mon-Kay" (don't ask, but Flip goes and gets it when we say it). 

Just recently Echo has taken to yelling 'MON KAY!!' and poor Flip goes running to find it.

lols


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## RawFedDogs

spookychick13 said:


> Dog Training: Animal Experts Debunk the Alpha-Dog Myth - TIME
> 
> I found this to be a pretty interesting read.


This is a good article. I wish more people realized this. A wolf pack is not really a pack at all, rather a family of Dad, Mom, and all their offspring. Mom and Dad are the leaders and teachers. Pups follow their parents the same way we all do. We don't fight for leader of the family. Mom and Dad are always the leaders.

In my latter days of training professionally, I would try to emphasize to my clients to stop thinking of this as dog training but think of it as teaching your dog desirable behaviors and teaching him to live in the human world. Be his leader, teacher, and mentor. Don't be his trainer and you don't have to dominate him. If you lead, the dog will gladly follow. 

OOPS!!! rambling ... sorry :smile:


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## DaneMama

We have screaming monkeys too! Bailey's favorite toy...and there is no other way to say it other than MON-KAY??? With an emphasis on making it a question LOL


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## yuffie

why do you hate cesar millan danemamma? i read his books and have seen his tv show and think he has a lot of good information and has helped a lot of dogs and people.


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## RawFedDogs

yuffie said:


> why do you hate cesar millan danemamma? i read his books and have seen his tv show and think he has a lot of good information and has helped a lot of dogs and people.


I'm not danemama but I'll be glad to answer your question. CM learned his training techniques from his Grandfather when he was a child. These techniques were out of date before he ever began. He uses techniques that are abusive and cruel. SOME of what he says is good information but if you are not knowledgable enough to know the difference, then stay away from him or his techniques.

There are 10,000 dog trainers around the US that do a better job at what he does every day. Back in the day I was a professional trainer, my day was about what you see on CM's show except I didn't have to be rough or abusive on my client's dogs. I saw the same type dogs with the same type problems. I worked with the clients exactly as he does except I showed them how to use positive reinforcement to get the same results.

CM is an actor ... a showman. NEVER forget you are watching a TV show. It has a script. You don't see what goes on when the camera is turned off or you don't see what was edited out of his show. He is a very good TV personality but a medicore dog trainer.

Watch Victoria Stilwell's show "It's Me or the Dog" on Animal Planet. She is 10 times the trainer CM is.


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## DaneMama

Um...exactly what RFD said. And to add, some of the videos I've seen of him just make me sick. He strangles dogs to the point of near suffocation and declares that its merely his "power" over the dog working it's "magic" to calm the dog down. Just do a google search for "Cesar Millan choking dog" and see what pops up.


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## luvMyBRT

I will be the first to admit that when I first watched CM I was totally into it, thought he was great.

However, the more I watch it and the more I learn about teaching with positive reinforcement I am not a fan anymore. There are a FEW things (a very select few things) that I agree with like how important exercise is, but not much of anything else. Just the other day I caught a few minutes of The Dog Whisperer and it really bothered me....

I do think you need to be a strong, positive, calm leader and you must see your role as more of a teacher than one who wants to dominate in a negative way. I too am a fan of Victoria and watch her show often. :wink:


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## whiteleo

Apparantly his wife doesn't like his technique either as she is divorcing him! LOL


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## luvMyBRT

whiteleo said:


> Apparantly his wife doesn't like his technique either as she is divorcing him! LOL


LOL! Your kidding!! :tongue:


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## spookychick13

Maybe he tries to make her submit too.


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## yuffie

wow i didn't realize there was so much hate for cesar millan. i admit i haven't watched his shows as much as i have read his books and i never felt like any of it was "abusive." i think he had a lot of good things to offer dog owners including the need to exercise dogs regularly, the importance of good dog walking, only praising them for behaviors you want, creating consistent rules and boundaries, and being calm assertive (sorry if some people find this common sense but i haven't read that many dog behavior books either). here's a quote from his book cesar's way that mention's his techniques:

"How we go about correcting our dogs is also the subject of much debate. There is an influential school of thought right now that argues that positive reinforcement and positive training technique alone should be used with dogs, or with any animal. In my opinion, positive reinforcement is to be desired and is wonderful- when it works. It works for happy-go-lucky dogs and for the dogs we raise as puppies. If you can get the behavior you desire out of feeding your dog treats, by all means go for it. But the dogs that come to me are often ones whose behavior is way out of control. They're rescued dogs who've had terrible pasts filled with abuse, deprivation, and cruelty. Or they're dogs who've lived their whole lives without any rules, boundaries, or limitations whatsoever. Then there are red-zone dogs that we've discussed. These dogs are too far gone to be rehabilitated simply by using treats."

ok so that's my take on his defense. i don't personally know CM or what's not shown behind the scenes or is failed to be mentioned in his books, but from what i read he seems to really love his dogs and has helped other dogs when other trainers have given up on them and would have been euthanized otherwise. i googled cesar millan choking dog and found a clip of him using a choking collar on a husky. i don't know what its like to train an aggressive dog because i would definitely use the choker to prevent myself from being mauled by that dog too if i had it on a leash. but hopefully i won't be in that situation and i obviously would never want to hurt my own dog yuffie, but we love each other and she listens to me too. so sorry for my long rant, and i will definitely check out that other dog trainer rfd mentioned - Victoria Stilwell's show "It's Me or the Dog" on Animal Planet. sorry for my long post, i guess i just found some of CM's info useful. and a "celebrity" getting divorced? wow that's surprising....


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## DaneMama

Don't be sorry. We are all entitled to our own opinions on things like this. I don't like him at all. But many people do. And I do think he's helped a lot of people out, BUT it could have been done in a better, more positive way.


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## Jacksons Mom

I personally can't stand Victoria. She really bothers me. I can't pinpoint it. It's not even her training techniques, because I use quite a few of her techniques. It's just her... she rubs me the wrong way. For one, she always seems TOTALLY against a dog sleeping in a humans bed. I, personally, don't find anything wrong with this at ALL. If a dog is guarding a bed, yes, that's a problem that needs to be fixed. But she just automatically thinks it's a terrible idea.

She will often times throw out peoples clothes they have for their dogs. OK, I'm not big on dressing your dog every single day for no good reason, or wearing dresses, etc. Jackson's got a few coats for winter and a few holiday shirts (and tons of bandanas and collars) but anyways... she will just plain throw stuff out. Some dogs DO need coats in the winter, hello. I really don't think there's anything wrong with putting a shirt on your dog every now and then, either. Your dog, your choice, as long as it's not harming the dog. She acts totally disgusted. The thing I DO like about Cesar, is when he comes across people who are obsessed with making their dogs human thru clothing, and everything, he doesn't judge or make rude remarks or throw anything away.... he just explains they need to be a dog first, then you can treat them like a human or whatever.

I also don't like that I've never seen Victoria with her own dogs. Does she even have any? I feel like Cesar is so much more personable and you get to see the love and bond between him and all of his dogs at the center.

With that said, I really like Cesar as a person. I think he's done alot of good for dogs when it comes to rescue, spay/neuter campaigns, awareness, and he's saved a ton of dogs from death row. Would I personally agree with some of his methods? Not entirely. But I love a lot of his basic principles, such as exercise, discipline and affection. I think he means well and truly loves dogs (unlike that Brad whatshisname, who is just... ugh, no words). Recent episodes have shown a much softer Cesar, and I think it's wonderful that he's learning and willing to change and try new things. Alot of trainers wouldn't do that. Everyone has to start and learn somewhere.

Again, I use positive methods only, but I also don't have a real dominant, aggressive or problem dog, so I have no first hand experience.


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## DaneMama

This is evidence for my dislike of Cesar (I don't see these as the "aggression" that many people do...because most people don't know what true aggression looks like). 

First thing, they don't show continuous feed. Second, he starts choking the dog before any signs of aggression are shown. Third, he KICKS the dogs (watch Cesar's right leg, about 3 or so seconds into the video), he flippin' kicks the dogs to elicit a reaction (IE an attack) so Cesar can make the dog out to be aggressive. Fourth, he feeds the leash through the handle loop in the leash to choke the dog more efficiently (he shows you how to do this). Finally, at the end of the video the dog is gasping for air, collapsed on the ground. This dog is not in a "relaxed" state, he is fighting for a breath of air. How is this even "technique" or even "training"??? This is just plain old animal abuse.

Shadow, Jake & Riley and Norton | Entertainment Videos | Comcast.net

There are just no words to descirbe this one:

YouTube - ‪Safe or Unsafe Handling of an Aggressive Dog‬‎

Just watch his right hand. You will see the shock collar remote for yourself. 

YouTube - ‪GSD Cesar shocl collar‬‎

These are just a few of the reasons that shows that Cesar is just a TV personality that is paid to look good, but has no real skill in training dogs. He uses outdated techniques, over dominance, and cheap/abusive tools (IE shock collar) to "train" dogs. Why? Because he doesn't possess the knowledge or experience that his books make him out to have. My guess is that they used some good trainers and got their ideas and then made it into a big marketing deal. Did it help a lot of people? I'm sure it did. But what is the right kind of help? Most likely not. This is just my opinion. What is your opinion after watching these videos???


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## harrkim120

danemama08 said:


> This is evidence for my dislike of Cesar (I don't see these as the "aggression" that many people do...because most people don't know what true aggression looks like).
> 
> First thing, they don't show continuous feed. Second, he starts choking the dog before any signs of aggression are shown. Third, he KICKS the dogs (watch Cesar's right leg, about 3 or so seconds into the video), he flippin' kicks the dogs to elicit a reaction (IE an attack) so Cesar can make the dog out to be aggressive. Fourth, he feeds the leash through the handle loop in the leash to choke the dog more efficiently (he shows you how to do this). Finally, at the end of the video the dog is gasping for air, collapsed on the ground. This dog is not in a "relaxed" state, he is fighting for a breath of air. How is this even "technique" or even "training"??? This is just plain old animal abuse.
> 
> Shadow, Jake & Riley and Norton | Entertainment Videos | Comcast.net
> 
> There are just no words to descirbe this one:
> 
> YouTube - ‪Safe or Unsafe Handling of an Aggressive Dog‬‎
> 
> Just watch his right hand. You will see the shock collar remote for yourself.
> 
> YouTube - ‪GSD Cesar shocl collar‬‎
> 
> These are just a few of the reasons that shows that Cesar is just a TV personality that is paid to look good, but has no real skill in training dogs. He uses outdated techniques, over dominance, and cheap/abusive tools (IE shock collar) to "train" dogs. Why? Because he doesn't possess the knowledge or experience that his books make him out to have. My guess is that they used some good trainers and got their ideas and then made it into a big marketing deal. Did it help a lot of people? I'm sure it did. But what is the right kind of help? Most likely not. This is just my opinion. What is your opinion after watching these videos???


Now I'm not saying that I approve of everything that CM does, but I just wanted to give my opinion. In the first video, he "kicked" (I wouldn't really call it kicking) the dog because it was getting focused on the other dog. That's what caused the dog to go after him. I just wanted to make it clear that he didn't just randomly kick it for no reason.

As for the second video...have you ever tried grooming one of those brush-loving pooches? I have and it's definitely not fun. I've held them back too to avoid getting bit. 

The third video you do have a point. 

Just my two cents. :biggrin:


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## DaneMama

harrkim120 said:


> Now I'm not saying that I approve of everything that CM does, but I just wanted to give my opinion. In the first video, he "kicked" (I wouldn't really call it kicking) the dog because it was getting focused on the other dog. That's what caused the dog to go after him. I just wanted to make it clear that he didn't just randomly kick it for no reason.


But my point is WHY kick a dog? Why not first teach a dog a cue word or distract the dog with a treat or a funny noise? Why resort to violence that just compromises the dog's trust for you? I just don't see the logic in provoking a dog, let alone a dog that is supposedly aggressive.



> As for the second video...have you ever tried grooming one of those brush-loving pooches? I have and it's definitely not fun. I've held them back too to avoid getting bit.


Absolutely. That is a difficult thing. But that is what a muzzle is for. And telling the owners to start desensitizing their dog to brushes and being groomed. 



> The third video you do have a point.
> 
> Just my two cents. :biggrin:


Adding your 0.02 in gives a different opinion and gets people to think :biggrin:


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## Jacksons Mom

harrkim120 said:


> Now I'm not saying that I approve of everything that CM does, but I just wanted to give my opinion. In the first video, he "kicked" (I wouldn't really call it kicking) the dog because it was getting focused on the other dog. That's what caused the dog to go after him. I just wanted to make it clear that he didn't just randomly kick it for no reason.


I was going to say the same thing about the first video with the Husky dog. However, I don't agree with the way he went about that situation. I've seen this video multiple times and this is the only one that ALWAYS pops up in CM debate threads. 

Also, the grooming dog, to be perfectly honest, I didn't think he did anything wrong. I think the dog acting out the way he did made it look alot worse. Jackson, for example, HATES his nail being clipped. I've tried desensitizing him to it multiple times (we use clicker training and positive reinforcement) but he doesn't care. He just hates it. He's gotten *better* and of course I will continue the positive reinforcement to get him to be better with his nails. But his groomer has to hold him down (not as drastic as this dog) to cut his nails real quick. I've watched her, she's not harming him, she's just getting her job done and it's over within 60 seconds. My friends little Yorkie looks somewhat similar to the dog in the clip and has to have two people hold him down, while one cuts the nails, and it's over fast and the dog gets over it.

The third one with the remote collar is pretty bad. I just don't like shock collars at all, and I don't agree with them. I've probably seen every episode of DW (and It's Me or the Dog actually) and I've probably only seen him actually use a shock collar around 3-4 times in the past 6 seasons. One was for a dog that chased cars and had been hit multiple times, they lived on a farm. One was for a Boxer that jumped and cleared and 8 foot fence easily and he used a static mat to keep him away from the fence. This GSD in the clip. And I know there was probably one or two more but that's all I remember. It's not like he's going around shocking dogs in every episode, which alot of CM haters make it seem like.

I think the first two seasons were probably the worst in terms of bad training. He did way too many unnecessary things and spouted the dominance thing way too often. I personally feel he's chilled out a lot and his recent episodes have been pretty much all positive. He uses treats and positive reinforcers more than ever before. He also doesn't just worry about dominating every dog. If there's a real shy dog, he uses slow, calm and positive methods. Like I said, I think he's come a long way and I'm happy about that. 

He came from an entirely different culture when it comes to dogs specifically. He did not know any better and he used what worked for him. I believe he had just learned English a year before his show started up. Jada Pinkett Smith and Will Smith were the ones who paid for his English tutor and got him involved with celebrities, so I think that's the only reason he ended up getting his own show. And Daddy had once belonged to rapper Red Man or something. So of course it's been a learning process for him, just like it has for anyone else who grew up with dogs who had been trained using these methods. I commend him for trying new things and being willing to learn from his mistakes.

Do I believe in everything he does? No. I don't dominate Jackson, or believe in shock collars, or any of that. But I envy his calm energy and state of mind and do believe dogs benefit from that, as well as exercise, discipline and affection.


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## Jacksons Mom

danemama08 said:


> But my point is WHY kick a dog? Why not first teach a dog a cue word or distract the dog with a treat or a funny noise? Why resort to violence that just compromises the dog's trust for you? I just don't see the logic in provoking a dog, let alone a dog that is supposedly aggressive.


He's not really what I'd call 'kicking' the dog, but I agree other methods should have been used. His point in using his foot to give the dog a nudge in the side is to re-direct his attention, but I agree that something else should have been tried first. More often than not though, a dog in that state of mind won't care about a toy or a funny noise. I know my dads JRT could care less when she goes on her little barking freaking out pulling on leash tangents. You could have the yummiest steak in the world and she could care less. Even a 'kick' to her side probably wouldn't do the trick for her, lol.



> Absolutely. That is a difficult thing. But that is what a muzzle is for. And telling the owners to start desensitizing their dog to brushes and being groomed.


He has done this quite a few times actually. I remember one episode and it was another tiny dog, I don't remember what kind, who hated the brush. So he slowly desensitized the dog to it, putting treats on it, and just waving it in front of the dogs face, etc. Also, I believe in the full episode of the little white spazz dog you posted, he also did that. I don't remember if treats were involved in that one though but he did make the cutting noise of the shears before actually cutting, etc, and getting the dog used to it.


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## DaneMama

We will just agree to disagree about Cesar :wink:


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## chowder

I have raised Chows and Lhasa's for over 30 years so basically have had nothing but dominant and problem dogs:smile: I started out watching every episode of Cesar and in the beginning thought that he might have some potential. But after seeing almost all of his shows, I realized there was no way his 'training' methods would work on Chows, and most independent breeds.

Cesar's problem in the hour long show is that he doesn't spend any time learning the dogs personality. A true problem dog needs to have a significant amount of time spent with it. You can't walk up to the dog, snap your fingers, and establish a bond with it in twenty minutes and then demand things of it. All that trainer is going to do is establish a great amount of distrust in the dog. The dog may actually obey the trainer after twenty minutes of harrassment, but it will be with total beligerance and it won't last. I know the show is edited but he still does not spend anywhere near the amount of time with the dogs that is needed to establish a relationship with them. 

As far as the Husky video goes, it doesn't surprise me in the least. An independent breed is just not going to tolerate aggressive physical contact by a stranger he has just met, especially a stranger that is already acting aggressivly towards him. By looping a leash over his head and taking him from his owner, Cesar was performing an aggressive act towards the Husky. The minute his foot touched the Husky's back, it became another aggressive act in the Husky's mind. The dog went into protection mode for himself and his owner. You have to understand how these dogs think and Cesar doesn't really. My Chows might have reacted the same way if some stranger had looped a leash over their head and walked them away from me and then 'tapped' them in the butt with their foot while I was within arms length. 

I had the head trainer of a school try the 'dominance theory' on my 6 month old male chow once. He was happily standing next to me in class and had no problem with her until she walked up to him, suddenly leaned over him and put him in a bear hug. He leaped away from her and growled for the first time in his life and never let her near him again. She told me she just wanted to see if he had a dominant personality or not. She was the only trainer in the class who couldn't pet him from that point on and in fact was scared to come near him when other trainers would walk right up to him and ruffle his head. That same chow let the vet handle him any time he wanted because the vet was a very calm man who moved slowly and gently and didn't try to dominate or use force on the chows. 

So, Cesar has some things that I have used like introducing new dogs together while taking walks around the neighborhood. (actually, that is the only thing). But I don't agree with his domination theorys. You will never get your Chow to be a family member by dominating it or using those forceful kinds of tactics. It has to be positive feedback with them, clicker training, and constant encouragement, etc. 

sorry for the ramble.......I hate to see the independent breeds get labelled as mean or stupid when they really are wonderful, very smart dogs!


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## CorgiPaws

A few things here. 

1. Cesar is a quack. 

2. I have PERSONALLY met him.. and he's a arrogant jerk. 


3.


chowder said:


> You will never get your [dog] to be a family member by dominating it or using those forceful kinds of tactics. It has to be positive feedback with them, clicker training, and constant encouragement, etc.


I think this hits the nail on the head. It is true for any breed....
but then, there will always be those who like to think their "breed" is the exception to everything...


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## Jacksons Mom

danemama08 said:


> We will just agree to disagree about Cesar :wink:


Lol, definitely. I'm not arging with that.

Like I said, I don't really promote his training methods or anything. 



chowder said:


> I have raised Chows and Lhasa's for over 30 years so basically have had nothing but dominant and problem dogs:smile: I started out watching every episode of Cesar and in the beginning thought that he might have some potential. But after seeing almost all of his shows, I realized there was no way his 'training' methods would work on Chows, and most independent breeds.
> 
> *Cesar's problem in the hour long show is that he doesn't spend any time learning the dogs personality. A true problem dog needs to have a significant amount of time spent with it.* You can't walk up to the dog, snap your fingers, and establish a bond with it in twenty minutes and then demand things of it. All that trainer is going to do is establish a great amount of distrust in the dog. The dog may actually obey the trainer after twenty minutes of harrassment, but it will be with total beligerance and it won't last. I know the show is edited but he still does not spend anywhere near the amount of time with the dogs that is needed to establish a relationship with them.
> 
> As far as the Husky video goes, it doesn't surprise me in the least. An independent breed is just not going to tolerate aggressive physical contact by a stranger he has just met, especially a stranger that is already acting aggressivly towards him. By looping a leash over his head and taking him from his owner, Cesar was performing an aggressive act towards the Husky. The minute his foot touched the Husky's back, it became another aggressive act in the Husky's mind. The dog went into protection mode for himself and his owner. You have to understand how these dogs think and Cesar doesn't really. My Chows might have reacted the same way if some stranger had looped a leash over their head and walked them away from me and then 'tapped' them in the butt with their foot while I was within arms length.
> 
> I had the head trainer of a school try the 'dominance theory' on my 6 month old male chow once. He was happily standing next to me in class and had no problem with her until she walked up to him, suddenly leaned over him and put him in a bear hug. He leaped away from her and growled for the first time in his life and never let her near him again. She told me she just wanted to see if he had a dominant personality or not. She was the only trainer in the class who couldn't pet him from that point on and in fact was scared to come near him when other trainers would walk right up to him and ruffle his head. That same chow let the vet handle him any time he wanted because the vet was a very calm man who moved slowly and gently and didn't try to dominate or use force on the chows.
> 
> So, Cesar has some things that I have used like introducing new dogs together while taking walks around the neighborhood. (actually, that is the only thing). But I don't agree with his domination theorys. You will never get your Chow to be a family member by dominating it or using those forceful kinds of tactics. It has to be positive feedback with them, clicker training, and constant encouragement, etc.
> 
> sorry for the ramble.......I hate to see the independent breeds get labelled as mean or stupid when they really are wonderful, very smart dogs!


Very true! 

However, I do want to add, a large majority of his show, he does take dogs to his center and keeps them there for weeks at a time.


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## Jacksons Mom

CorgiPaws said:


> 2. I have PERSONALLY met him.. and he's a arrogant jerk.


I've never met the man personally but I have a close online friend who got a chance to hang out with him for a few days, dinners, dogs, etc. (It was through Make a Wish foundation) and he was nothing but sweet and nice.


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## CorgiPaws

Jacksons Mom said:


> I've never met the man personally but I have a close online friend who got a chance to hang out with him for a few days, dinners, dogs, etc. (It was through Make a Wish foundation) and he was nothing but sweet and nice.


Consider the cause it was for and what circumstances it was under. :wink:


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## Jacksons Mom

CorgiPaws said:


> Consider the cause it was for and what circumstances it was under. :wink:


You've got a point! :biggrin: May I ask what he did to make you believe he's an arrogant jerk?

Because I've met quite a few celebrities who will come across as arrogant one time, and the next they're total sweethearts. People have bad days, including celebrities. Just sayin'. I'm not sticking up for him or anything. Like I said, I've never met the guy.


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## malluver1005

spookychick13 said:


> Just recently Echo has taken to yelling 'MON KAY!!' and poor Flip goes running to find it.


Hahahaha!! too funny! Poor Flip!!


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## merlin371

yuffie said:


> wow i didn't realize there was so much hate for cesar millan. i admit i haven't watched his shows as much as i have read his books and i never felt like any of it was "abusive." i think he had a lot of good things to offer dog owners including the need to exercise dogs regularly, the importance of good dog walking, only praising them for behaviors you want, creating consistent rules and boundaries, and being calm assertive (sorry if some people find this common sense but i haven't read that many dog behavior books either). here's a quote from his book cesar's way that mention's his techniques:
> 
> "How we go about correcting our dogs is also the subject of much debate. There is an influential school of thought right now that argues that positive reinforcement and positive training technique alone should be used with dogs, or with any animal. In my opinion, positive reinforcement is to be desired and is wonderful- when it works. It works for happy-go-lucky dogs and for the dogs we raise as puppies. If you can get the behavior you desire out of feeding your dog treats, by all means go for it. But the dogs that come to me are often ones whose behavior is way out of control. They're rescued dogs who've had terrible pasts filled with abuse, deprivation, and cruelty. Or they're dogs who've lived their whole lives without any rules, boundaries, or limitations whatsoever. Then there are red-zone dogs that we've discussed. These dogs are too far gone to be rehabilitated simply by using treats."
> 
> ok so that's my take on his defense. i don't personally know CM or what's not shown behind the scenes or is failed to be mentioned in his books, but from what i read he seems to really love his dogs and has helped other dogs when other trainers have given up on them and would have been euthanized otherwise. i googled cesar millan choking dog and found a clip of him using a choking collar on a husky. i don't know what its like to train an aggressive dog because i would definitely use the choker to prevent myself from being mauled by that dog too if i had it on a leash. but hopefully i won't be in that situation and i obviously would never want to hurt my own dog yuffie, but we love each other and she listens to me too. so sorry for my long rant, and i will definitely check out that other dog trainer rfd mentioned - Victoria Stilwell's show "It's Me or the Dog" on Animal Planet. sorry for my long post, i guess i just found some of CM's info useful. and a "celebrity" getting divorced? wow that's surprising....


Victoria isnt a dog Lover she really is an actress she started as an actress and when that didnt work out she went for dog training so that she could be on TV, Dont get me wrong she knows the techniques, cause anyone can go to a training school and learn how to train a dog, but you can see from how she reacts to people that just pet their dogs or just simply hug them, or like you said stay on the couch or on the bed and she always goes "I've never seen anything like this". If you love a dog you let him on the couch or on the bed you consider him one of your family, I dont get why she finds so much problem with it. And what's the deal with her castrating like half the dogs that are on the show, does she have some repressed anger towards males? 

I wish they would made another show with Ian Dunbar.


----------



## RawFedDogs

merlin371 said:


> Victoria isnt a dog Lover she really is an actress she started as an actress and when that didnt work out she went for dog training so that she could be on TV,


She is an actress and has been on many shows in the UK. However, she didn't just begin to be a dog trainer to get on tv. It takes years of experience to be a compitent dog trainer.



> Dont get me wrong she knows the techniques, cause anyone can go to a training school and learn how to train a dog,


It takes years to be a good dog trainer and she is 10 times better than CM. Much more modern and up to date.



> but you can see from how she reacts to people that just pet their dogs or just simply hug them, or like you said stay on the couch or on the bed and she always goes "I've never seen anything like this". If you love a dog you let him on the couch or on the bed you consider him one of your family, I dont get why she finds so much problem with it.


You would have to be a professional dog trainer to know that. Many, if not most, of the dogs on her show have behavioral problems because of over indulgent "parents". It is the "parents" who have allowed the dog to become problem dogs by their own unwillingness to step up and be the leader, teacher, and mentor.

With non-problem dogs, I agree 100% with you that those customs are not a problem.



> And what's the deal with her castrating like half the dogs that are on the show, does she have some repressed anger towards males?


I haven't watched her show a lot in the last year or so and I can't comment on that.



> I wish they would made another show with Ian Dunbar.


ME TOO!!!! EXCEPT ... Ian Dunbar doesn't have an entertaining personality. Week in and week out he would become very boring although there is probably no more knowledgable trainer in the world. Both CM and VS are good entertainers.


----------



## merlin371

RawFedDogs said:


> You would have to be a professional dog trainer to know that. Many, if not most, of the dogs on her show have behavioral problems because of over indulgent "parents". It is the "parents" who have allowed the dog to become problem dogs by their own unwillingness to step up and be the leader, teacher, and mentor.


No i mean in cases like one episode there was this girl that gave kisses to the dog and she was like "omg you kiss the dog, I've never seen such a thing" loads of people do, and tbh it doesnt make the dog any worse if you do, is not really a reason to go "omg how could you", or the dog on the bed thing, on that book "the power of positive training" that even you recommended the writer even says it herself the dogs can be on the bed if trained right. She just rather avoid the issue. My dog goes on the bed and on the couch, but whenver i tell him to get off it he just does. Again on another episode of her's a dog was always on the couch and wouldnt come off it when asked and would get aggressive, she said that dogs should never be on the couch because then they become possessive over it, I'm not a trainer and I managed to find a medium with my dog where he go on it and come off it when i tell him, so why cant a "trained" trainer do that?

She had a cocker spaniel euthanized in one of her episodes, only because she couldnt deal with it, where maybe someone else might have not saying CM just saying another trainer could've but she's very up her high horse about her training technique that she cant see past what she does, ("I am the very best in this country" YouTube - ‪Greatest American Dog fight‬‎ said it herself). Ian Dunbar himself says himself that there is never a time when a dog is gonna bite that you cant tell is gonna happen. And you shouldnt allow the dog to be in a situation where he's gonna bite someone.



> ME TOO!!!! EXCEPT ... Ian Dunbar doesn't have an entertaining personality. Week in and week out he would become very boring although there is probably no more knowledgable trainer in the world. Both CM and VS are good entertainers.


Well considering these shows are on Documentary TV station knowledge and information should be more important then entertainment tho


----------



## CorgiPaws

merlin371 said:


> ("I am the very best in this country" YouTube - ‪Greatest American Dog fight‬‎ said it herself).


I heard "I follow the very best in this country"


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## merlin371

CorgiPaws said:


> I heard "I follow the very best in this country"


Ya sorry the part just before when she asked "are you the god of dog training?" and she said yes I am.

Either way you can disagree with a training method but people should be open minded.


----------



## CorgiPaws

There's something to be said about any celebrity... and that's that their every decision is in the spotlight. Combine that with the fact that a "team" decides what they get to say, do, dress, and act like... and the truth comes out: we don't REALLY know any of them.


----------



## RawFedDogs

merlin371 said:


> but she's very up her high horse about her training technique that she cant see past what she does, ("I am the very best in this country" YouTube - ‪Greatest American Dog fight‬‎ said it herself).


I haven't seen most of those episodes you talk about so I can't comment on them. However, I did see the clip you posted and saw it on tv when it was originally broadcast and what Victoria said was 100% right. I applauded her when she originally said it and I applaud her now.



> Ian Dunbar himself says himself that there is never a time when a dog is gonna bite that you cant tell is gonna happen.


Well, thats true and its not true. If a dog is going to bite you for something when it has time to think about it, yes, thats a correct statement. When he is reacting to something that has just happened to him and surprised him, no, there will be no warning.



> And you shouldnt allow the dog to be in a situation where he's gonna bite someone.


Absolutely ... Thats one of the first things a dog trainer should learn. :smile:



> Well considering these shows are on Documentary TV station knowledge and information should be more important then entertainment tho


Should be but it's not. I had a big disagreement with my boss years ago when I was a people trainer. I had just made a training video that I didn't like because of production quality. He tried to tell me that it was the content that counted, not the production quality. He was proved wrong. I gave him several examples of video's with perfect production quality with no real information in them and people loved the videos eventhough they didn't learn anything. Anyway ... sorry for rambling. :smile:


----------



## RawFedDogs

merlin371 said:


> Either way you can disagree with a training method but people should be open minded.


I refuse to be open minded about using force and/or coersion to train any animal. It's just plain wrong when you can accomplish the same thing without using force or pain. There is no way it can be justified.


----------



## merlin371

RawFedDogs said:


> I refuse to be open minded about using force and/or coersion to train any animal. It's just plain wrong when you can accomplish the same thing without using force or pain. There is no way it can be justified.


Would ya justify it as the last resource of either that or put a dog down? cause it might not be humane to use force on a dog, but i think is a lot less humane to just kill it.

And btw she's a very strong believer in dominance of the dog she says it a lot on her show, that you gotta be the alpha dog and such, yet this article while it discredits CM it does the same to her, as that's what she also believes, ofc she uses different methods to establish dominance but the end result is the same.


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## RawFedDogs

merlin371 said:


> Would ya justify it as the last resource of either that or put a dog down? cause it might not be humane to use force on a dog, but i think is a lot less humane to just kill it.


It is never a last resort. You can teach anything with positive reinforcement that you can with coersion, force, and pain. You've just got to be a leader, teacher, and mentor and understand motivation. It's just finding someone who knows how. Yes, it takes more energy. Yes, it takes more knowledge. Yes it takes more understanding about how a dog's brain works. We are humans, they are dogs. We are supposed to be smarter. If you have to resort to violence to get a dog to behave the way you want, you are admitting that the dog is smarter than you. :smile:



> And btw she's a very strong believer in dominance of the dog she says it a lot on her show, that you gotta be the alpha dog and such, yet this article while it discredits CM it does the same to her, as that's what she also believes, ofc she uses different methods to establish dominance but the end result is the same.


The word "dominance" means different things to different people. Look at the way VS "dominates" and compare it to the way CM "dominates". What VS is using is what I call motivation. She may call it dominance. It is being the leader, teacher, and mentor without using coersion, force or pain. You have to pay attention to what you are watching instead of relying so much on the words you hear. When you say, " ... the end result is the same", if you mean you have a dog who presents the behaviors you want, yes the result is the same. However MUCH different methods are used to get those results.


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## merlin371

RawFedDogs said:


> It's just finding someone who knows how.


Right there you just pretty much said that she didnt know how to fix that dog.

You would expect that the trainers in TV would be the best and wouldnt resort to thing such as euthanization which is the thing that i most disagree with, since it can just be done without really getting approval from almost no one, most vets just do it. (not the case in every country thankfully)

And either way if you watch a few of her episodes she does overly states that you gotta be the alpha leader of the pack, the fact that she gets the wording wrong only reinforces what I think of her, which is that she's just a talking book.


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## RawFedDogs

merlin371 said:


> Right there you just pretty much said that she didnt know how to fix that dog.
> 
> You would expect that the trainers in TV would be the best and wouldnt resort to thing such as euthanization which is the thing that i most disagree with, since it can just be done without really getting approval from almost no one, most vets just do it. (not the case in every country thankfully)


Unfortunately behavior problems are the #1 cause of dogs being euthanized. I didn't see the show you are talking about but I can't imagine VS telling someone to euthanize the dog. I think you must have misunderstood something in the conversation. Even if she said it, why on earth would they put that on TV? There is something here I'm not being told.



> And either way if you watch a few of her episodes she does overly states that you gotta be the alpha leader of the pack, the fact that she gets the wording wrong only reinforces what I think of her, which is that she's just a talking book.


Again she is a good trainer and 10 times the trainer that CM is. I have never seen her cause pain to a dog either physically or mentally or emotionally. Admittedly I haven't watched her show much in the last year or so.


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## Jester's King

I came upon this thread late and haven't read through all the posts, so forgive me if this has been said.

There is only one thing that two dog trainers agree on... ...that the third trainer is wrong!!!

That being said, thanks to the OP for this thread, as it is a very important issue. I agree that CM is a showman with very limited working knowledge of the right way to work with a dog. Dogs need guidance, not an alpha, but like a big brother or sister (or parent) to look up to. When I volunteer at the animal shelter, the first thing I do is just connect with a dog, making it see me as the best thing possible...What that means is different for each dog, but I don't tell the dog to do a single thing, other than try to be with me. After time (again different for each dog) start showing him how to behave... In other words I want the dog to act like me. So I would never do any of the alpha dog crap because I don't want to create a dog with an alpha complex any more than I want a dog to cower in submission. I want to guide a dog into being as social as possible. But the dominance stuff just makes the dog hide its intentions until it can't hold back anymore... Very dangerous.

If I don't stop now I'll just ramble on top a great big soap box. I will say that Victoria Stillwell is smoking hot!!! And seems to be a good trainer.

-Bryan


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## RawFedDogs

Jester's King said:


> I will say that Victoria Stillwell is smoking hot!!! And seems to be a good trainer.
> 
> -Bryan


Heck, If I was 5 years younger and single, I'd marry her. :biggrin:


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## merlin371

RawFedDogs said:


> I didn't see the show you are talking about but I can't imagine VS telling someone to euthanize the dog. I think you must have misunderstood something in the conversation. Even if she said it, why on earth would they put that on TV? There is something here I'm not being told.


Apparently she disowned the episode and Channel4/Animal Planet pulled it off the air and the net after the first viewing that's why it's really hard to find this was the episode in question

It's Me or the Dog - Series 3 - Episode 2 - It's Me or the Dog - Channel 4

it's not listed on her website either I'm gonna try and find it, they are also talking about that very episode on the comments on the article linked at the beginning, if I find the episode I'll let upload it on youtube or something :smile:


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## Jester's King

I haven't read through the posts on this debate, but will say that most realistic people who work on saving homeless dogs find out pretty quick that u can't completely shy away from euthanasia. It is very unfortunate, but reality. The shelter i work with is not no-kill, but TRIES VERY HARD to save every dog. Fact is there just are tooooo many unwanted dogs, so there does come a time when we are faced with unspeakable decisions.
Again, I don't know the history of what she said, but can imagine that she was mentioning a terrible, but possibly best case scenario.


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## Jester's King

She also may have wanted to shake up her clients into understanding how serious the situation was.


----------



## spookychick13

merlin371 said:


> Victoria isnt a dog Lover she really is an actress she started as an actress and when that didnt work out she went for dog training so that she could be on TV, Dont get me wrong she knows the techniques, cause anyone can go to a training school and learn how to train a dog, but you can see from how she reacts to people that just pet their dogs or just simply hug them, or like you said stay on the couch or on the bed and she always goes "I've never seen anything like this". If you love a dog you let him on the couch or on the bed you consider him one of your family, I dont get why she finds so much problem with it. And what's the deal with her castrating like half the dogs that are on the show, does she have some repressed anger towards males?
> 
> I wish they would made another show with Ian Dunbar.


Wait, what? Castrating male dogs is a fantastic idea.
Do you have any idea how many unwanted pets there are out there?
Castrating a male will also help with some aggression issues.

Also, I love my dog, absolutely and unquestioningly, but I don't allow him on my bed. That's my choice and it has nothing to do with how much I care about him, but more about the dirt and allergy factor.


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## CorgiPaws

spookychick13 said:


> Also, I love my dog, absolutely and unquestioningly, but I don't allow him on my bed. That's my choice and it has nothing to do with how much I care about him, but more about the dirt and allergy factor.


*GASP!* How dare you! I surely love my dogs more than you love yours!
Haha, just kidding. :biggrin:Champ was never allowed on furniture, either. Too much dang hair. I suppose I'm cruel, too. :tongue:


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## spookychick13

CorgiPaws said:


> *GASP!* How dare you! I surely love my dogs more than you love yours!
> Haha, just kidding. :biggrin:Champ was never allowed on furniture, either. Too much dang hair. I suppose I'm cruel, too. :tongue:


I know!
Look at poor Flip, suffering on the floor.


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## CorgiPaws

spookychick13 said:


> I know!
> Look at poor Flip, suffering on the floor.


Oh no!! Someone ought to report you for such animal cruelty! haha:tongue:


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## merlin371

You both compleatly missed the point, Not letting a dog on furniture because it destroys it's normal, but if someone else does it's also fine because maybe they dont care, but not understanding why anyone would ever do that it's the problem.


----------



## CorgiPaws

merlin371 said:


> You both compleatly missed the point, Not letting a dog on furniture because it destroys it's normal, but if someone else does it's also fine because maybe they dont care, but not understanding why anyone would ever do that it's the problem.


OO, let me clerify... I *DO* let my dogs on the furniture... just didn't let *that* one... because he was a 90lb hairy beast, and when I brought him home, I lived with my mom who insisted he not be on it, so out of respect for her house, I trained him to stay off. I didn't love him any less. I don't think that there's anything wrong with dogs on the furniture, some people make the decision based off of things that have nothing to do with unacceptable behavior. :biggrin:

I suppose my point, that I was awful at making, probably because I was distracted by a very cute Mr. Flip... was that I do not think there's anything wrong with dogs on the bed or couch, at all... but I also don't think the people who don't allow it are cruel or love their dogs any less, or anything of that nature.


----------



## spookychick13

merlin371 said:


> You both compleatly missed the point, Not letting a dog on furniture because it destroys it's normal, but if someone else does it's also fine because maybe they dont care, but not understanding why anyone would ever do that it's the problem.


I just don't like it, and I don't like it when people let their dogs do it.
Maybe I'm OCD, I don't know.

I get WHY people do it though.


----------



## spookychick13

CorgiPaws said:


> Oh no!! Someone ought to report you for such animal cruelty! haha:tongue:


If you look closely, you can see his trail of discarded toys strewn behind him.

Just like hubby, he doesn't pick up after himself! :wink:


----------



## jdatwood

merlin371 said:


> Apparently she disowned the episode and Channel4/Animal Planet pulled it off the air and the net after the first viewing that's why it's really hard to find this was the episode in question
> 
> It's Me or the Dog - Series 3 - Episode 2 - It's Me or the Dog - Channel 4
> 
> it's not listed on her website either I'm gonna try and find it, they are also talking about that very episode on the comments on the article linked at the beginning, if I find the episode I'll let upload it on youtube or something :smile:


That was easy to find... took about 15 seconds searching Google. 
Searching Videos for "it's me or the dog" | Veoh

I agree with her. If one of our dogs attacked someone in my family, TWICE, I would put it down. Especially since the 2nd attack was MUCH worse and unprovoked.


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## JayJayisme

Wow, that was the first time I've seen Victoria Stilwell, and it will be the last. That was one of the saddest things I've ever seen. 

That dog's problem was a PEOPLE PROBLEM. His people let him down. His people were clueless. How on earth can Victoria make a call like this on a dog (claiming it has a "neurological problem") after only spending a few hours here and there with it? 

Everyone gave up and the dog paid the price. I would never give up on a dog that easy, especially if it was ME that made him this way in the first place. From the moment the clip started running I was cringing watching those stupid people let the dogs run the house like that. It was a disaster waiting to happen that *they* created. These people made the dogs into monsters!

Then they thought they could have someone else come in and "train" the dogs to see things differently within a few weeks? Morons...all of them. I'm disgusted by the whole thing. The dog obviously needed special attention and so did his people. Euthanizing it was not the answer. At the very least he should have been re-homed with adults. Some people just shouldn't own dogs and this family was a perfect example of that.

Godspeed Benjy. Forgive the clueless people who needlessly took your life to cover up their mistakes. :frown:


----------



## merlin371

JayJayisme said:


> Wow, that was the first time I've seen Victoria Stilwell, and it will be the last. That was one of the saddest things I've ever seen.
> 
> That dog's problem was a PEOPLE PROBLEM. His people let him down. His people were clueless. How on earth can Victoria make a call like this on a dog (claiming it has a "neurological problem") after only spending a few hours here and there with it?
> 
> Everyone gave up and the dog paid the price. I would never give up on a dog that easy, especially if it was ME that made him this way in the first place. From the moment the clip started running I was cringing watching those stupid people let the dogs run the house like that. It was a disaster waiting to happen that *they* created. These people made the dogs into monsters!
> 
> Then they thought they could have someone else come in and "train" the dogs to see things differently within a few weeks? Morons...all of them. I'm disgusted by the whole thing. The dog obviously needed special attention and so did his people. Euthanizing it was not the answer. At the very least he should have been re-homed with adults. Some people just shouldn't own dogs and this family was a perfect example of that.
> 
> Godspeed Benjy. Forgive the clueless people who needlessly took your life to cover up their mistakes. :frown:


exactly, and she never even had the kids spend time with the dog to let him get used to them and let the dog associate kids with good, everytime my nephew is here i always give him some dogs treats to give the dog all the time, and he loves him and would never do anything to him, I find it amazing that she didn't let the dog and kids bond at all, and like you said that dog needed a re-home he wasn't aggressive

And one more thing just like you said she gave up on the dog, i can understand a family to give up on a dog more but she is there to help dogs, she's there to be the voice of this dogs and try to save them, this is the exact same that if an anger management teacher said to the lot, you are hopeless just kill yourself.


----------



## spookychick13

Wow.
Those two dogs were absolutely out of control.
There is no way I could tolerate that behavior.
To be fair, I would never have let it get that bad.


----------



## RawFedDogs

OK, I watched the show and I agree with Victoria. In this particular case, there was no other option. You absolutely under no circumstances rehome a dog that has bitten twice, once as severly as this dog did. The dog could not stay in the home. No way for that to happen. There was no other possible outcome.

We can argue a lot about what caused that. Obviously this family was not in the slightest a dog savy family. They had no clue about how to control dogs. This is a typical family that hire trainers like me. I saw many families like then when I was training. Rarely was it this severe but very similar problems and cluless about what to do about it. I do know that several years ago, spaniels got overbread and there were a lot of cocker spaniels bred with mental problems. Was that the case with this dog? Don't know ... possibly. Could a more dog savy family handled things better? probably. But once the situation got to the point this one did, there is no other recourse.

Most rescue organizations will not accept a dog that has bitten and drawn blood. This one did it twice.


----------



## merlin371

On another forum i was reading about this they were saying how Cocker spaniel become very aggressive if they have otitis externa, yet the dog was never brought to a vet that could've checked if the dog had another reasons to be aggressive or anything, no she just stayed there for 2 days, the family gave the dog 2 months and when he bit again because of their own fault they just said "just kill him, he aint worth efforts on our part", the only efforts they did was pretty crap anyway.

My grandma years ago had a dog that was actually agressive he mauled a guy that just came in the yard to get his ball back, he also mauled another guy that was pissing him off the whole time, one time the gate opened and the guy was outside and he just went for him, yet we didn't give up on him, he showed aggression towards everyone it took years and him getting hit by a car before she decided to have him put down. But in the end we managed to get him to calm down a lot before he had to go, when people came visiting we made sure that the dog wasn't in a situation where he would bite someone, if a dog really is part of the family you would put the effort in, isn't that after all the most *humane *thing to do?


----------



## jdatwood

merlin371 said:


> she never even had the kids spend time with the dog to let him get used to them and let the dog associate kids with good,
> 
> I find it amazing that she didn't let the dog and kids bond at all


Sure she did. I guess you overlooked the part where the kids were participating in the training? You don't know that the kids weren't bonding with the dogs.



merlin371 said:


> And one more thing just like you said she gave up on the dog, i can understand a family to give up on a dog more but she is there to help dogs, she's there to be the voice of this dogs and try to save them, this is the exact same that if an anger management teacher said to the lot, you are hopeless just kill yourself.


The dog had shown itself to be aggressive and dangerous. The 2nd unprovoked attack was worse than the first. 

I'm sorry but when violence escalates from one instance to the next sometimes you have to make a very difficult judgement call.

Sometimes you have to "give up" to preserve the safety of others.

At what point do you think it would be ok to put the dog down? 3rd attack? 4th attack? Maybe once it killed a child??


----------



## merlin371

jdatwood said:


> The dog had shown itself to be aggressive and dangerous. The 2nd unprovoked attack was worse than the first.
> 
> I'm sorry but when violence escalates from one instance to the next sometimes you have to make a very difficult judgement call.
> 
> Sometimes you have to "give up" to preserve the safety of others.
> 
> At what point do you think it would be ok to put the dog down? 3rd attack? 4th attack? Maybe once it killed a child??


Why would they let the dog alone with the child? (My dog is in no way aggressive and i never ever leave him alone with my nephew ever) are we sure that the attack was unprovoked anyway? at the beginning of the episode you can very well see that the child that god bit was "air slapping" the dog when she was at the table is definatly not a smart thing to do to any dogs.

And no i wouldnt give up on the dog after a second attack, i would rather find someone that was able to deal with the dog to take him to another home, maybe one with no kids or something, but i wouldnt have gone with the euthanasia option. And I think it was worth a bit more then just a phone call tbh, she should've checked more about it.
Many trainers even bring the dogs with them to their facilities for a few weeks to fully take away the aggression, was that not worth a shot either? it's a lot easier to just kill off the problem.


----------



## DaneMama

The family would have definitely had to put extensive work into their dog and themselves to even begin to work on the problems that dog had. The problem is they just weren't able to do what they needed to to save him. It would have taken countless hours of their time as well as lots of money for the help of professional dog trainers. I don't think this family was up for that, not many are. Especially ones as utterly clueless as that one. I think VS picked up on the fact that this family was too "lazy" to give their dog the attention it needed, so suggested that the dog be put down. I think it would have been incredibly negligent on her part to not suggest it since that little girl was mauled.


----------



## JayJayisme

I'm still in shock and saddened by this episode. Ruined my whole day. I've got some construction projects around the house and as mindless as these tasks are, I can't help but dwell on the anger I feel after seeing this show.

RFD, you MAY be right about there not being an other option for Benjy but as far as I can tell after watching the episode, and someone correct me if I'm wrong, VS never personally witnessed the attacks or even any actual aggression from this dog other than the time it snarled and quivered it's lip at it's clueless owner. When she asked him if he saw it, he had no clue. Yet she based her recommendation to put the dog down on the information about the attack that she never saw and only heard second-hand from a couple of people who are dog-tarded. Sorry, but that doesn't fly with me. She should have removed the dog from the home and evaluated it first-hand, up close and personal (as they say), to determine the reason for the aggression before going to the extrteme of recommending euthanasia.

Every time I've seen a dog exhibit aggression towards a human, it was for a reason caused by a human. Not necessarily the one on the receiving end of the aggression, but a human nonetheless. No dog deserves to be put down because it was screwed up by stupid people. Sure, maybe it shouldn't be re-homed with a family with kids. Maybe it should be placed with someone who can handle it, work with it, and rehabilitate it. At least someone should try. Killing it should be an absolute last resort. Unfortunately, I don't feel this way about career criminals, but I do about dogs because they are almost always the hapless victims of stupid people.

And for those of you Cesar Milan haters, all I can say is this. Awhile back, I was accused of being a CM fan in this thread...

http://dogfoodchat.com/forum/dog-training/1968-male-dog-psychology-question.html

...which I wasn't. I barely knew who he was. But since then, since I was told I seemed to share many beliefs with him, I sought out some of his shows online and watched them. Yeah, he's controversial for sure. I don't agree with everything he does or says. But in all the episodes I've seen, I've never seen (or even heard of) Cesar giving up on a dog and recommending euthanasia. In fact, he seems to be one of the the few people in this field who has the balls to point the fingers at dog owners as much (or more) than the problem dogs themselves, as the root of the dog's behavior issues. Even better though is that he spends the necessary time with the *people* to train them how to correct their own dog's issues rather than making it all about "training" the dog.

Love him or hate him, he makes some valid points that I firmly believe in (whether they are "outdated" or not). One thing is for sure, I don't think CM would EVER tell someone to euthanize their dog. Seems like a lot of the dogs at his center in L.A. are dogs that others gave up on. In fact, his beloved Pit Bull "Daddy" was apparently one of those aggressive dogs that everyone gave up on except him. And until Daddy died (from old age IIRC), he was the poster-pup for rehabilitating aggressive dogs and he helped Cesar restore pack order to many confused dog-owning families. 

CM and VS are entertainers, as others have pointed out. Sadly, this family who owned Benjy took her advice seriously and while it made for dramatic TV, it was not their only option. So to me, both of these entertainers have their controversy but CM never told someone to put a dog down that I know of and at the end of the day, despite some flaws, that makes him okay in my book.


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## JayJayisme

jdatwood said:


> I'm sorry but when violence escalates from one instance to the next sometimes you have to make a very difficult judgement call.
> 
> Sometimes you have to "give up" to preserve the safety of others.
> 
> At what point do you think it would be ok to put the dog down? 3rd attack? 4th attack? Maybe once it killed a child??


Jon, I hear what you're saying, but what if it was *YOU* who was the root of the problem that caused this dog to be aggressive? What if you owned a dog, and you were clueless, and the dog got this way, then you figured out that it was you who caused the problem to begin with, by allowing bad behavior from the dog? Do you euthanize it to cover up your mistake? 

Okay, this is hypothetical. I know you and Natalie are exemplary dog owners. But, hypothetically, what if you weren't then one day you realized (either by waking up or by having someone tell you) that your dog's problems are the result of your own lack of knowledge and experience. Do you brush it aside or do you suck it up and do what's right for the dog?

It's one thing if you inherit crazy dogs. It's another if you cause their behavioral problems. If you can't handle the situation, you should find someone who can. Killing an animal because someone is too stupid or lazy to deal with their own mistakes is unconscionable to me, as was the case here as I see it.


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## RawFedDogs

JayJayisme said:


> So to me, both of these entertainers have their controversy but CM never told someone to put a dog down that I know of and at the end of the day, despite some flaws, that makes him okay in my book.


On a tv show like the two we are discusing, you only see what they choose to show you. I would guess that CM has a couple of hundred clients a year. You see maybe 15 or 20 of those 200+. You don't know how many he recommended to be put down. Maybe none ... maybe a lot. We just don't know.

There was no other option with the dog in question. Yes, maybe CM could have taken him in and controlled him enough to integrate him into his pack but there are not many people who could do that. Possibly I could have taken the dog and integrated him into my pack but I have no desire to do that. Like most trainers, I don't go looking for problem dogs to bring home. I want an easy dog when I get one. :smile:

Most people who have the ability to take in that dog don't want to because they know whats involved. 

You really can't rehome a vicious dog like this. I feel sorry for the dog. Maybe it's his fault and maybe not but his fate was sealed once he mauled the girl. It wasn't just a bite. 

Reputable rescues won't touch him. The family couldn't keep the dog around the house for the months it sometimes take to find another home. I see no other realistic option.


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## DaneMama

I agree with every word you are saying Jay, at least about the spaniel. I think they shouldn't have given up on him the way that they had, but I have to look at this a realistic way. With working in rescue, we have to take into account the past history of any dog, especially attacks made towards a human. It's a legality issue that most people don't want to touch with a ten foot pole because of the risk of a lawsuit. 

I think in this case the best thing for this dog would have been to place him with very experienced dog owners and trained him extensively, IF they were willing to take on a "high risk" dog with a bite history. I thinknwe can all agree that this dog needed to get away from the original family that made him that way. But I don't see many people willing to take on such a high risk case like this. There are so many unwanted dogs in pounds that have no history or any aggression at all. Who would have put the effort into this dog that it needed? Obviously not the original family....a lot of trainers won't take on cases like these either.

As far as who's better: CM or VS? That is easy for me to say, because I agree with more of VS's techniques. But we all have different opinions on what makes a good trainer. Do I like everything she does? No. I don't think there is a trainer on this planet that I agree with fully.


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## Jester's King

Well put Natalie!!!


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## spookychick13

RawFedDogs said:


> OK, I watched the show and I agree with Victoria. In this particular case, there was no other option. You absolutely under no circumstances rehome a dog that has bitten twice, once as severly as this dog did. The dog could not stay in the home. No way for that to happen. There was no other possible outcome.
> 
> We can argue a lot about what caused that. Obviously this family was not in the slightest a dog savy family. They had no clue about how to control dogs. This is a typical family that hire trainers like me. I saw many families like then when I was training. Rarely was it this severe but very similar problems and cluless about what to do about it. I do know that several years ago, spaniels got overbread and there were a lot of cocker spaniels bred with mental problems. Was that the case with this dog? Don't know ... possibly. Could a more dog savy family handled things better? probably. But once the situation got to the point this one did, there is no other recourse.
> 
> Most rescue organizations will not accept a dog that has bitten and drawn blood. This one did it twice.



English Cockers don't have anywhere near the amount of issues (ear and otherwise) as American Cockers.
I think the dog was just beyond control at this point, thanks to the family.
I agree completely with never rehoming a dog that has bitten twice, unless it's a very special case.


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## Jacksons Mom

Wow. I have never seen that episode and I am appalled.

First of all, Victoria says "WHY do you feed your dogs dry food every day?" as if it's some major crime to feed your dogs... *gulp* DOG FOOD every day?! OK, honestly, a dog that is fed dry food and human food mixed, or canned food mixed, does _not_ help a begging dog, in my opinion. Training does. Which she did enforce as well but I didn't see a reason for her to act so appalled by a person feeding their canine plain dog kibble.

I liked how she taught leave it, and the on your mat commands. Those were very good. I love her methods when it comes to that kind of stuff. But I feel like, in general, she didn't really work with the dogs that much. But of course, I realize she can only show so much within a 23 minute program.

Bottom line... the dog should have went to live at a house with NO children. That would have been a good start. With Spaniel experience, and aggression experience, although this dog didn't seem full out aggressive, it seemed to only be towards children. I've seen episodes of the DW where dogs were seriously just attacking anybody or anything that came near them.... this Spaniel seemed pretty happy for the most part. Why did she not recommend exercise, to start with? Taking the dogs for a LONG walk before eating would have definitely helped calm down the dinner table a bit, combined with the mat training. Maybe feed the dogs their food at the same time the humans were eating theirs so they were pre-occupied eating their own food.

I just can't support a trainer who tells someone so quickly to put a dog down without witnessing the attack herself. The owners say there was no warning but there is always a warning in a dog attack, often times people just miss their signals and cues. What that poor little girl went through was horrible, I feel terrible for her and it never should have happened. Would I keep a dog that did that to my child? No!! Would I put a dog down like that? I definitely would like to say no, if it was my own child, I suppose I can't judge because I don't know what I'd do if it was my own child. But this dog had already bitten before, why was this kid even with the dog in the first place? 

A perfectly good and healthy dog was put down because he bit a kid once, and attacked another kid, and he was.. how old? All he needed was a home without kids. Putting a dog down should really be a final total LAST resort. Not enough effort was put into him and it's a total shame. 

Wow, I'm not even writing or thinking clearly because that episode just blew my mind away. I have lost a lot of respect for VS actually. 

I wish we could just freakin' get someone else on tv. Zak George has an awesome personality, and he's a great trainer, and he had Superfetch on AP, but I think he needs a better show dealing with behavior issues, etc.


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## whiteleo

Well in my opinion, there are just some dogs that no matter how much love and training you put in, aren't going to change! Just like people and addiction!


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## Jacksons Mom

whiteleo said:


> Well in my opinion, there are just some dogs that no matter how much love and training you put in, aren't going to change! Just like people and addiction!


Just because a human has a bad addiction doesn't mean they should die or be killed. Yeah, they may be better off dead but it doesn't make it right.


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## whiteleo

I didn't mean that a person should die! use your head: Many addicts cannot change!


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## Jester's King

Is it just me or did this thread regarding the alpha debate get way way off track?


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## StdPoo Dad

I don't allow Seamus or Teaghan on the furniture either. They also sleep in their crates, I like my bed to be *my* bed.
Last summer Seamus had exploratory surgery, I was running an IV on him at home. Of course he didn't sleep in his crate with the IV tube. 
However, the day I took the tube out it was time to to to bed, I pointed at the pile of bedding he'd been sleeping on and told him "lets go to bed"
He just stood and stared at the spot until I put his crate back there, then he toddled right into it and went to sleep.

Look at the poor poo's suffering on the floor. Poor kids don't get to sleep on the couch. My god, the horror!













spookychick13 said:


> I know!
> Look at poor Flip, suffering on the floor.


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## luvMyBRT

Jester's King said:


> Is it just me or did this thread regarding the alpha debate get way way off track?


Isn't it wonderful!? I think it's the nature of the beast on this forum!

I think first and foremost we don't know exactly every little thing that VS did with the dogs, kids, family, etc. We don't know exactly how much time she spent with the dogs, etc. Maybe she really took the time and care to work with this dog, maybe she did work more with the kids...maybe she didn't. Who was there when the bite occurred? Where the children being supervised? We will probably never know....

Secondly as a mother of two, there is NO WAY I would allow a dog to stay in my house after he bit my child once, let alone twice. Did you see the bite and bruise marks that were left on that kid?? The dog didn't just do a quick nip, he actually ATTACKED the child. In this case I would think that the dog needed to be put down. The safety of a child comes before a dog. The ONLY place where I think he could have been re homed is to someone without children, who knows his bite history, and who was totally capable of rehabilitating the dog and working with him. This dog was a BIG liability and a HUGE responsibility for someone to take on. 

I think what is very important here is that children are NEVER left alone with dogs. When my children are playing with our dogs they are always supervised and they have been taught from day one how to properly act around dogs. Another thing is that my dogs do know that I am in charge and that my children are "above" them so to speak. One thing that I have been working on with Duncan is how he is supposed to interact with my children. He is learning that it's not okay to mouth, nip, or get too ruff with my kids and in return my kids have been taught how to respect Duncan and Lucky (really any dog for that matter). And, I can tell you one thing for sure....I know that my kids could probably do just about anything to any of my dogs and NEVER get attacked. Not saying that they are allowed to because they have been taught proper manners as have my dogs, just saying....

I think this episode is so sad. I had to turn it off at the end because I almost started to cry. I feel so bad for this dog as his outcome was NOT his fault and could have been totally avoided if his family had had a clue....


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## merlin371

StdPoo Dad said:


> I don't allow Seamus or Teaghan on the furniture either. They also sleep in their crates, I like my bed to be *my* bed.
> Last summer Seamus had exploratory surgery, I was running an IV on him at home. Of course he didn't sleep in his crate with the IV tube.
> However, the day I took the tube out it was time to to to bed, I pointed at the pile of bedding he'd been sleeping on and told him "lets go to bed"
> He just stood and stared at the spot until I put his crate back there, then he toddled right into it and went to sleep.
> 
> Look at the poor poo's suffering on the floor. Poor kids don't get to sleep on the couch. My god, the horror!


Why do people only read what they want? I said before that if someone doesnt want the dog on the bed or on the couch it's more then normal and it's *their*decision much like is *their*decision if they wanna allow the dog on the couch/bed, a trainer or anyone going into someones house saying "omg you cant do that" it's just plain rude, and shows that it doesnt understand how everyone is different in many different ways, and they should work around that, there's plenty of people that have very nice and calm dogs and let them up on furniture and beds so saying that the aggression is because of that, is proven wrong by all the other ones.

But back on topic, "dominance" "alpha" and "leader" they all fall under the same thing the dog gotta listen to ya, and seeing that you call the shots no matter what you are always gonna be the leader, you choose when the dog eats if he can or cant get on beds or furniture, if he can run or whatever he does in the house so the dog will definitely see you as the leader. It's like when I'm walking with the dog if he wanna cross the road and pulls towards the other side i tell him no and continue straight, 10 seconds later I cross the road myself with the dog so it was my shot not his, it establishes dominance very easily and it's not harsh in any sort of way, but I think many people are too concerned with semantics.


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## Jester's King

I agree that semantics often cloud this debate. The scenario of crossing the street is an excellent example of displaying leadership to your dog. When I say trainers/owners should not be concerned with dominating and being alpha, I'm speaking of things like CM doing alpha-rolls where he pins down a dog he just met on it's side. IMO that's unacceptable and stems from misunderstanding wolf behavior. Those actions are what an insecure wolf would do, but not one who actually leads the pack, as leaders are the calm, "well balanced" members of the pack.


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## jiml

Watch Victoria Stilwell's show "It's Me or the Dog" on Animal Planet. She is 10 times the trainer CM is.>>>>

I dont know if i totally agree. I am not as they say "purely positive" but I do think CM is sometimes outdated and many times just ignorant either in technique or explanation. That said VS is good w common everyday house dog probs. For the big probs sometimes i feel she bails. Ex dog begs - feed him tastier stuff and put up a baby gate LOL. I need to be on tv for that LOL.


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## jiml

Even among trainers that do use aversives some of CM's techs are a no-no. Like alpha rolls. 

I DO believe that every dog is different. Ex for one (maybe even most)dog/s a pinch collar may be what i would call abusive. For another less so than a flat or head collar.

------------

some is semantics. EX from the article - " "All I have to be is one position higher than that dog," says Beaver. "I raise him to see me as a leader. Not an alpha, a leader.""

well most would use the terms interchangeably. 

I despise CM's usage of the word dominance in practically every situation. but if you practice NILF you are controlling resources - the very definition of dominance.


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## RawFedDogs

jiml said:


> I DO believe that every dog is different. Ex for one (maybe even most)dog/s a pinch collar may be what i would call abusive. For another less so than a flat or head collar.


Once you advance to purely positive training and you have to be VERY knowledgable about dog psycology, you will understand that every dog operates under the same psycological priciples. They may not be alike but the same principles of learning and behavior apply to each.



> some is semantics. EX from the article - " "All I have to be is one position higher than that dog," says Beaver. "I raise him to see me as a leader. Not an alpha, a leader.""
> 
> well most would use the terms interchangeably.


I see them as different things. An alpha is a controller who usually uses coersion, force or the thread of force in most everything in order to get what he wants.

A leader is a teacher, guide, and mentor.

I think it is more a difference in attitude. In my dog training days, I would find that I would get different behaviors out of my clients when I used the word "alpha" vs. "leader or teacher"



> I despise CM's usage of the word dominance in practically every situation. but if you practice NILF you are controlling resources - the very definition of dominance.


By the very strictest definition of the word you are correct. However, NILIF almost never uses adversives. It usually just witholds rewards until a behavior is performed. Dominance almost always uses adversives in the common usage of the word.


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## jiml

Once you advance to purely positive training >>>> LOL - I know your beliefs and will not take offence LOL

As we all know there is really no PP. just limiting of aversion to levels acceptable to the individual.


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## merlin371

Interesting read from K9-1 regarding the alpha debate this are guys that actually have trained wolfs as well.

This part is quite interesting



> What they are referring to is the original study where wolves were observed in captivity. Here unrelated wolves were placed together and an “alpha” emerged as the most assertive wolf that would be in control of limited resources and ultimately social interaction.
> They are now attempting to debunk this theory because of further studies out in the wild typically will be made up of related wolves, and naturally there is less aggression seen in these established packs where the pups are born to parents that already have the upper hand. Wolves, like normally acting dogs, do not show aggression for no reason. And, if they must it is always minimal amount.
> Now, let me ask you this… How many dog owners have actually giving birth to their family dog? Compare this to the number of families that are actually bringing outsiders (pups or rescued adults) into their home and are unrelated. Ok, that will be 100%. A dog, just like a wolf, will need to know who has the dominant role in the household in order to relate properly to the humans and know who makes the important group decisions – whether it be who to trust at the door or who is entitled to take possession of the unclaimed poisoned rat discovered in the yard at the same time. If no one shows this to the dog, depending on the dog’s personality, he may either claim the role himself, or just be insecure and wait for someone else to take the role. This is what dominance is about in our relationship with dogs – and if you don’t communicate that you want the role, yes, a dog may “dominate” us if it fits his personality type. To “dominate” is to be in control and this does happen all the time in households with no knowledge of how to “dominate” their pets. Does dominating a dog have anything to do with force as suggested… only to the uneducated “old school” trainer and those who credit them as representing professional dog training. Dominating your relationship with your dog has to do with who is making the initiatives, who is in control of unclaimed possessions, play, and other activities. This is what gives you the upper hand needed in the dog-human relationship and tools to motivate your dog for further training. It involves calm leadership with precise relationship rules. It is not about “alpha rolls” or physical punishment of any kind.


rest of the article is here

“Dominance in Dog Training Debunked” or is it?


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## RawFedDogs

I don't have time right now to read the link, what is quoted here is very good. I agree completely. I don't even like to use the word "dominate" even if it's put in quotes showing that is not really domination in the way we picture. I prefer the words "teach", "guide", "lead", and "mentor" to describe my relationship with my dogs and thats the concept I tried to teach my clients back in my training days.


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