# Stubborn dog recall



## 02SVT (Jan 15, 2011)

My pup turns one year old next month. The biggest problem I have had with her so far is recall. She will come just fine in the house. I taught her to sit and stay in one spot, then I will walk to the other side of the yard and call her and she will come, everytime. The problem is any other time we are outside and I call her, like when it's time to go inside. Most of the time she will just stand there and look at me. Ignoring her hasn't produced any reasults. I'v tried using treats to lure her into the house, doesn't really have any affect on her. I'm looking for any other ideas anyone has used in this situation that they have gotten good reasults from. She seems to have taken on the "I'll come in whenever I feel like it" attitude.


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## SerenityFL (Sep 28, 2010)

02SVT said:


> My pup turns one year old next month. The biggest problem I have had with her so far is recall. She will come just fine in the house. I taught her to sit and stay in one spot, then I will walk to the other side of the yard and call her and she will come, everytime. The problem is any other time we are outside and I call her, like when it's time to go inside. Most of the time she will just stand there and look at me. Ignoring her hasn't produced any reasults. I'v tried using treats to lure her into the house, doesn't really have any affect on her. I'm looking for any other ideas anyone has used in this situation that they have gotten good reasults from. She seems to have taken on the "I'll come in whenever I feel like it" attitude.


Put her on a long lead, 30' or so. Put her in a sit position, walk away. Get to the end of that lead. Call her to come. Then give the slightest tug on the leash and "reel" her in, so to speak. Do it a thousand times.


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## schtuffy (May 17, 2010)

Sigh...I just wrote up a semi-long post and lost it. This computer at work drives me nuts :doh:

Anyways, I was going to say Louis sort of has the same problem. We used to practice in my parents' old yard with high reward treats like hotdogs, and generally he would come no problem. He almost _always_ comes when called in the house, for instance when we are on another floor out of sight. But basically, if there is a distraction then we have trouble. If there's something he's fixated on at the window, or if he sees a bunny, then he's a goner. Once he chased a bunny across the street into a neighbors yard and beyond. He eventually came back, but I don't even want to think about what could have happened (ie. a car). So we kinda put that on the back burner for a little while. My parents have since moved so we don't really have a yard to practice in either. I'd rather keep him leashed than risk anything. I know that's not the right attitude to take, but it's only until I find a workable solution.

The biggest headache right now is calling him when it's time to go home at the dog park. Of course he doesn't want to come to me...because coming means getting leashed and going home :frown:

So where does one find an absurdly long leash? I've checked at pet stores and I can't seem to find anything over 6 feet.

ETA: Hmm...I guess when in doubt, Amazon?


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## 02SVT (Jan 15, 2011)

schtuffy said:


> Sigh...I just wrote up a semi-long post and lost it. This computer at work drives me nuts :doh:
> 
> Anyways, I was going to say Louis sort of has the same problem. We used to practice in my parents' old yard with high reward treats like hotdogs, and generally he would come no problem. He almost _always_ comes when called in the house, for instance when we are on another floor out of sight. But basically, if there is a distraction then we have trouble. If there's something he's fixated on at the window, or if he sees a bunny, then he's a goner. Once he chased a bunny across the street into a neighbors yard and beyond. He eventually came back, but I don't even want to think about what could have happened (ie. a car). So we kinda put that on the back burner for a little while. My parents have since moved so we don't really have a yard to practice in either. I'd rather keep him leashed than risk anything. I know that's not the right attitude to take, but it's only until I find a workable solution.
> 
> ...


Make one. Get 100ft of clothes line (cheap at Wal-mart) and cut it down to size, then make a loop for a handle at one end and tie a clip to other, total cost, about $6.

I think thats part of our problem as well, distraction. If anything gets her attention, forget it. I will try the method descibed above though. I'm going to ake this part of her daily routine, without fail, until she "gets it"


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## Tobi (Mar 18, 2011)

From owning a stubborn ass and recall being our biggest issue, i can tell you that just reeling in won't work, you HAVE to be 100 million times more exciting and better than anything that they are at the moment interested in. A bag of treats, and a lot of patience will go a long way, we work with free shaping and it's improved Tobi's recall 10fold, we loaded his name, and now he knows that his name means food every single time! if were someplace exciting a few clicks and he's practically running us over from the expectation of something tasty. just my 2c.

When pigs fly!: training success with impossible dogs [Book]

I'm not quite sure what kind of dog you're having trouble with, but mine is about as stubborn as they come breed wise. this book goes into more detail on recall and getting your stubborn dog conditioned to want to please you.


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## Celt (Dec 27, 2010)

If you only call you dog to come to you when fun time is over, they're not going to want to come. One thing, you can try is to get you dog running/chasing you, then either get ahead and stop or just stop and call them to you. Make a big deal using you recall word and handing out treats. Call them over just to get treats, then send them back out. Call them to you to play a game. Run/play around and when your dog comes towards you to see what's up, use your word and treat when they get to you. Making recall the best game ever with grand prizes of yummy treats and fun times with you.


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## RawFedDogs (Jun 16, 2008)

02SVT said:


> My pup turns one year old next month. The biggest problem I have had with her so far is recall. She will come just fine in the house. I taught her to sit and stay in one spot, then I will walk to the other side of the yard and call her and she will come, everytime.


Your problem is simple and easy to fix once you understand what the problem is. Your dog has learned the recall in certain specific instances and not generally. Dogs don't generalize things well and that is your present problem. He knows in the house when you call him, he is to go to you. You have taught him that well. The next issue: You have also taught well, "when i put you in a sit stay and walk across the yard, you will come when I call you." What you have failed to teach is "anytime I call your name (or other cue), you are to come to me." She has learned recall in specific situations but not generally.

So, what you do is go out in the yard with her on a long line ... from a pretty small distance (6' -8') call her to you. If she doesn't come pretty quickly (remember she is learning so she MAY have to think about it a few seconds), give a light tug on the line and gently pull her to you. When she gets to you, get real excited, praise, praise, praise, and treat. Make a real big deal out of it. When she gets proficient at that distance, increase it some (maybe 12'). Repeat the same thing over and over until she is proficient at that distance. Gradually increase distance until she is proficient from any reasonable distance (at least anywhere in the yard). All this should be done without distractions.

Now, start back pretty close again with small distractions. Increase distance w/ small distractions. THen bigger distractions from shorter distance and work to longer distance again.

Once you start the distractions phase, don't just do this in the back yard. Do it in other locations. If you are not careful you will have a dog with great recall in the yard and no place else. I think you probably get the picture now so its time to get to work. Keep us posted on progress. :smile:




> The problem is any other time we are outside and I call her, like when it's time to go inside. Most of the time she will just stand there and look at me.


She is looking at you because she doesn't know what she is supposed to do at this point in her training.



> She seems to have taken on the "I'll come in whenever I feel like it" attitude.


I strongly suspect her attitude is "I'll come in when I learn what it is you want me to do." You see, a big secret to animal training is to learn how to communicate to the animal what you want it to do in a way it understands. Dogs will do most anything you wish as long as they know what it is you are asking them to do. They often get accused of being stubborn when in reality the problem is the trainer not knowing how to communicate with the dog. Their thought processes are a lot different from ours. Their mental capacity is a lot less than ours.


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## KittyKat (Feb 11, 2011)

I agree with the above. I got a long line from my trainer and I would use it out in the yard, and even on some walks. I'd let Piper wander off and get distracted and then call her... if she didn't come I would call her and then pop the leash... and I would keep popping it until she started to run to me. Then I would praise and treat like mad. She picked up pretty quickly that she had to come when called. After that occasionally she would falter, and i'd bring out the long line again to remind her that no matter what, and no matter where... I can reach her quick little butt.


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## SerenityFL (Sep 28, 2010)

schtuffy said:


> Anyways, I was going to say Louis sort of has the same problem. We used to practice in my parents' old yard with high reward treats like hotdogs, and generally he would come no problem. He almost _always_ comes when called in the house, for instance when we are on another floor out of sight. But basically, if there is a distraction then we have trouble. If there's something he's fixated on at the window, or if he sees a bunny, then he's a goner. Once he chased a bunny across the street into a neighbors yard and beyond. He eventually came back, but I don't even want to think about what could have happened (ie. a car). So we kinda put that on the back burner for a little while. My parents have since moved so we don't really have a yard to practice in either. I'd rather keep him leashed than risk anything. I know that's not the right attitude to take, but it's only until I find a workable solution.
> 
> The biggest headache right now is calling him when it's time to go home at the dog park. Of course he doesn't want to come to me...because coming means getting leashed and going home :frown:
> 
> ...


I am surprised you can't find one at a pet store...I got two of them from PetSmart. 

I thought the rewarding part when the dog got to you after you "reeled" them in was a given but apparently not. So, I'll say that adding to what I said above, of course, when they get to you, you throw them a ticker tape parade. You do this over and over and over and over and over again, (like I said, a thousand times....of course I'm exaggerating but only slightly), the dog will learn that when you say, 'come' the action is to lift their butt off of the ground and come to you. If your dog a) knows the command and b) respects you, it won't matter what distractions are going on around it.

Also, I used to mix things up a bit when we were doing training. I'd let them "free run" as I call it. Then I'd call them over, put the leash on them, walk around with them and let them sniff and roll around and go for short little jogs, (I'm talking short), and then walk again, meet people if they were people I didn't mind them meeting, etc. Then I'd let them off the leash again and "free run". Then I'd call them back again and put the leash back on. I may or may not repeat the actions from above. This way, when I called them to come over and put the leash on them, they didn't associate that with, "Aw man, the fun is ending."


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## trikerdon (May 14, 2011)

SerenityFL said:


> Put her on a long lead, 30' or so. Put her in a sit position, walk away. Get to the end of that lead. Call her to come. Then give the slightest tug on the leash and "reel" her in, so to speak. Do it a thousand times.


I have the same problem I guess I have only done the 30 ft leash thing a hundred times, maybe I need to do it a few hundred more. Like in the one post she does everything well in the house. Don't dare take her out without a leash (don't have a fenced yard) And watch out if she sees a squirrel or any other animals, she is gone......


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## RawFedDogs (Jun 16, 2008)

KittyKat said:


> if she didn't come I would call her and then pop the leash... and I would keep popping it until she started to run to me.


Popping the leash is unnecessary and counterproductive to your relationship with your dog. You cannot be a positive reinforcement trainer and pop the leash.



> Then I would praise and treat like mad.


Leash popping cancels out the praise. Your dog isn't coming to you because it wants to, its coming to get you to stop popping.



> She picked up pretty quickly that she had to come when called. After that occasionally she would falter, and i'd bring out the long line again to remind her that no matter what, and no matter where... I can reach her quick little butt.


I wish you would study some about positive reinforcement training. It would change your attitude about your dog and your relationship with it. I recommend the book The Power of Positive Dog Training by Pat Miller. You will be glad you did and your dog will thank you for it. :smile:


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## SerenityFL (Sep 28, 2010)

I have to agree with RawFedDogs that when you are doing recall training, popping the leash like that is not a good way to do it. You want to mark the activity that she does that you like.

So, for example, when I did the recall, I'd put them on the lead, have them sit, (and for me, I don't say, "stay", sit means sit until I give you a command otherwise...same with "down"), and then I'd walk to the end of the lead. I would then stand there, call their name. If they had been looking at something else, when they did look at me, I'd mark it with a "YES!" 

(Of course, I started that whole marking when looking at me long before I started out on recall. That looking at me and marking it started in the house before any sort of recall training.)

Anyway, when they STARTED to come to me after I called them to me, on the long lead, I'd mark it with, "YES!" (very enthusiastically), and THAT alone would get the dog running. So when they went from a walk to a run, another "YES!"

When they got to me, we would do a happy dance, they would get tons of petting and other assorted happy sundries and we would do it again and again and again. 

So, instead of popping the leash to make her run to you, mark it with a "YES!" as that makes them MUCH more enthusiastic about barreling over to you. They pick that stuff up quick and WANT to do it again. In the dog's mind, "Wow! That was great! I run to her, I get all this! Let's do that again!"


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## DaneMama (Jun 27, 2008)

One thing I suggest you try with the long line to take it to the next level is as follows:

First, you will need another person...just to hold the dog still and make sure to keep a hold on the other end of the long line. Have that person hold the dog firmly by the collar, but not rewarding the dog for staying. Just simply holding them still.

Then you start running about 10 paces as you yell out your pup's name ONCE and ONLY once while you continue to run the opposite direction. As soon as you call the dogs name the person holding the dog still needs to let go and run after the dog still holding onto the long line (to ensure control and safety). The long line should never get tight, it should stay nice and loose. Clap your hands, speak all squeaky, get a little wacky but make sure you have you dog's attention and the dog follows you. 

The moment the dog reaches you, grab the collar and IMMEDIATELY start reinforcing for a solid 30 seconds. Rapid fire treat, after treat, after treat. Don't be cheap here, give out a major JACKPOT of treats. This will solidify the behavior. Jackpot EVERY recall for the first couple of sessions and then make your reinforcement variable. Only give jackpots randomly but still reinforce your dog on every recall.

Repeat this exercise as many different places as you can, the more the better. 

And as a reminder, NEVER call your dog to you if you plan on doing anything the dog doesn't like in the beginning. This will establish a questioning attitude from the dog because sometimes when you call its fantastic but sometimes when you call its less than ideal (like a bath or nail trim, etc). 

Good luck and I hope this helps!


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## RawFedDogs (Jun 16, 2008)

One more thing I forgot to mention is that after the very beginning, I don't hold the long lead. I just let the dog drag it around. I stay close enough to it that I can step on it if the dog starts to run away. This is also a good way to practice other off leash stuff.


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## CavePaws (Jan 25, 2011)

Don't know if this has already been said or if you are doing this, but if you're standing in the exact same spot every time you call your dog to come inside it's realized that you're going to bring it inside. (duh? you say ) So recall to the opposite side of the yard, praise for a good minute (literally, go over the top) and then leash up and go inside. Call to a different spot in the yard every time so that your dog does not start associating one spot with going inside. Dogs are very clever creatures and they'll do just about anything they can to get around something they don't want to do or find unpleasant sometimes. This is why your recall needs to be infinitely rewarding. I really couldn't find a percentage that fit; I was about to say 100% then 200% then I gave up. You MUST make your recall the most exciting thing in the world for your dog. Use the highest of value treats, play with them, physically praise, verbally praise - overall, be happy your dog actually came to you. Last thing, NEVER repeat your recall command. Say your dogs name as many times as your need to in order to get that look (may be once, may be 20x) but NEVER repeat your recall command after you've already said it. Example of a good one: (command) "BARNEY! BARNEY! BARNEY?! YES! COME!" (gap in time from when barney starts running and gets to you) "OH WHAT A CLEVER BOY. YOU'RE SUCH AN AMAZING DOG. GREAT BOY. AWESOME PUP!" Clap, sing, get happy. Do a little dance! I mean really, don't skimp on the praise here.

example of the bad: "Barney, COME! COME BARNEY! COME! COME!" and Barney doesn't come, why? Barney is probably waiting on the 10th time you've said come to actually come. :]


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## SerenityFL (Sep 28, 2010)

CavePaws said:


> Don't know if this has already been said or if you are doing this, but if you're standing in the exact same spot every time you call your dog to come inside it's realized that you're going to bring it inside. (duh? you say ) So recall to the opposite side of the yard, praise for a good minute (literally, go over the top) and then leash up and go inside. Call to a different spot in the yard every time so that your dog does not start associating one spot with going inside. Dogs are very clever creatures and they'll do just about anything they can to get around something they don't want to do or find unpleasant sometimes.


Where I used to live, we had a "meeting place" and that was under a tree on the corner of the field. This is where I would call them and would leash them up to go back, every single time. However, when they came to that spot, they were either ready to go because they had just had a TON of exercise or I would, as I said in an earlier post, mix it up with calling them over and we leave to calling them over, I put the leash on and we continue to walk around and sniff things, etc. 

I wanted a meeting place so that no matter what happened, they would know to go there and I would show up and get them. (Remember, this was in the Everglades...) Nine times out of ten, they are the ones who went there first, to let me know, "Ok, we're ready to go in now."

As for calling their name over and over...that's what I meant by the "marking when looking at me thing" in my previous post. I would say their name. I would say it in a very soft voice, I would say it in almost a whisper, I would say it like I was excited, I would say it normal....every single time they looked at me after I said their name, "YES! Good boy!" (or girl), the ticker tape parade, pettings, treats, etc. Now? I say their name once. They look at me every single time I say their name. Remember, dogs hearing is very good. They KNOW you said their name. They heard you the first time. 

The point in doing that, for me, was so that they would constantly look to me. What I mean by that is that we would go out, whether on leash or not, they'd be walking, running around, sniffing at things, playing with each other but about every couple of seconds or every 5-10 seconds, you will see that my dogs look over to me, to where I am, and are always aware of where I am. It was easier with the girl...heck, when I walk her on leash, out of the corner of my eye I can see her looking up at me about every 3-4 steps. That's the kind of focus I want. It leads me to be able to do other things with her. The boy was harder but when we are in "free run", he is the one who is extremely aware of where I am at all times and if I walk away from them at one of the yard to the other, he will ALWAYS, without fail, follow me whether I called him or not...unless I put him in a down.

When it's time to come in, I say their name once. "Shasta, come." "Sakari, come." And I walk to the door like I expect that they will follow. And you know what? No matter what they've been doing, they come.


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## doggiedad (Jan 23, 2011)

train her while she's leashed. train indoors and outside.
train her from a short distance and add length as she learns.
i find training in sessions works best. each sessions should be 5 to 10 minutes
long. as more time as the dog learns. train often. have many sessions during
the course of a day.


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## 02SVT (Jan 15, 2011)

Lots of good advice here. I started yesterday as part of her new routine. I am going to do short sessions (15 min or so) everyday. By the end yesterday she seemed to know what I wanted her to do. I went out to the yard today (she was already out) and called her over, and she came right over with no hesitation. Good sign!

One other question; as far as rewarding with treats...whats the threat of a dog getting too used to treats? For example; the dog will only perform when it knows you have something?


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## RawFedDogs (Jun 16, 2008)

02SVT said:


> One other question; as far as rewarding with treats...whats the threat of a dog getting too used to treats? For example; the dog will only perform when it knows you have something?


Great question. So few people do this correctly. Yes, treats are a great training tool. They make training faster and easier. Here is what you do. As you are teaching a new behavior, treat every single time the dog does it correctly. After he has learned the behavior and is pretty proficient with it, start weaning him off the treats FOR THAT PARTICULAR BEHAVIOR. 

For example ... you are teaching "sit". Treat every time for about a week. After a week the dog should be pretty good at it. If he is, start treating 3/4 of the time and not on a schedule like three treats then no treat. Keep it random but only treat about 3/4 of the time. Do that for a week. Then treat 1/2 the time FOR SITTING. By this time treat only the fastest sits but still half the time. The next week treat only 1/4 the time. Now you treat only for the fastest sharpest sits but 1/4 the time.

After a week of that you wean him off the treats "completely". I put that in quotes because you must remember one very important psychological truism. _*"Behaviors that are rewarded are repeated."*_ This is true with all animals in all phases of life. So, remembering that, you should always treat sometimes for sit just to reinforce it but it shouldn't be required by the dog to get a treat before he sits.

I hope I explained this well enough to be understood. :smile: Sometimes things that are real easy to explain in person are not as easy with the written word.


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## lmgakg (Jan 1, 2011)

schtuffy said:


> So where does one find an absurdly long leash? I've checked at pet stores and I can't seem to find anything over 6 feet.
> 
> ETA: Hmm...I guess when in doubt, Amazon?


Just use a rope or a piece of twine. Double it if need be, loop one end through the link on the collar and then you have the other end or both ends, whichever. I would assume this would work, unless you have a 150 pound dog that is set on taking off on you, if that's the case, wear gloves to avoid rope burn!!


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## lmgakg (Jan 1, 2011)

RawFedDogs said:


> Great question. So few people do this correctly. Yes, treats are a great training tool. They make training faster and easier. Here is what you do. As you are teaching a new behavior, treat every single time the dog does it correctly. After he has learned the behavior and is pretty proficient with it, start weaning him off the treats FOR THAT PARTICULAR BEHAVIOR.
> 
> For example ... you are teaching "sit". Treat every time for about a week. After a week the dog should be pretty good at it. If he is, start treating 3/4 of the time and not on a schedule like three treats then no treat. Keep it random but only treat about 3/4 of the time. Do that for a week. Then treat 1/2 the time FOR SITTING. By this time treat only the fastest sits but still half the time. The next week treat only 1/4 the time. Now you treat only for the fastest sharpest sits but 1/4 the time.
> 
> ...


That sounds exactly like what you should do, let me know if you will be in the detroit area....I'll give you my address and my dogs!!!!


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## monkeys23 (Dec 8, 2010)

A lunge line from any horse supply place: Super cheap and very sturdy. Mine was free actually.

A lot of dog supply sites have both tubular nylon and biothane tracking/training lines, tough and fairly easy on the hands. I have a 10ft biothane leash and I love it. I don't use it for recall, but you get the picture. I think dogsportgear.com was where I got that one.

Ella's Lead - Home has some really nice ropes that you can get long lines made from. Sure you might get hand burn from a puller, but its never going to fail and result in an escaped dog. I heart them for leads and collars!

Or you can go to REI or something and get tubular nylon or mountain rope cheap to put on a snap.

I know some people with lines from petsmart or whatever... ouchy hand burn! But maybe that is just me.

I imagine clothesline from the evil empire would be pretty sucktastic on the hands too. But hey if it works for ya.


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## lmgakg (Jan 1, 2011)

DaneMama said:


> And as a reminder, NEVER call your dog to you if you plan on doing anything the dog doesn't like in the beginning. This will establish a questioning attitude from the dog because sometimes when you call its fantastic but sometimes when you call its less than ideal (like a bath or nail trim, etc).
> 
> Good luck and I hope this helps!



Okay, this is the part that confuses me...Raja went to kindergarten and passed with flying colors...now he is really pretty good, but not totally good. I really have to be on top of him and reminding and reminding and reminding that he can't go say hi to everyone he sees and he can't chase the butterfly over there because I'm calling him over here. But there are times that are not ideal, such as when it's time to go in the house when we are out playing....but I need to call him to come. Or when we have to go somewhere, he hates the car, I have to call him to get him to get in the car - he won't eat in the car, so treats means nothing, I could have 10 steaks laying in the car and he still won't eat them or like the idea of getting in the car. Soooooo how do I call him when it is bath time (another activity he HATES)?????????


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## DaneMama (Jun 27, 2008)

So just don't call him or say his name at all when you need him to come in from playing or to get into the car. Just go get him and lead him to wherever he needs to be. 

Calling your dog in from playing in the yard isn't necessarily a terrible thing, just make sure your reinforcement is 10 times better than the game of being outside.


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## Celt (Dec 27, 2010)

For fun stopping recalls, when I'm training, I use a "special" treat that they only get for "giving up" the fun times. Right now the "drop everything" treat is Beggin' Strips. I know they're horrible but I don't give them out often. At the beginning, I would give a small "chunk" for every recall, then it became pieces. Now I only give them on "special" ocassion.


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