# Considering Raw



## hund (Aug 7, 2012)

I'm considering putting my dog on raw but I'm a little intimidated. What about bone perforations, how common are they? Pathogens? Bacterias? I'm interested and have the gist of what to do (I know to start with chicken backs/necks) but I AM scared of hurting my dog with good intentions....
Has anyone on here had their dogs on raw for one of your dogs entire livespan? I have heard a lot from people that have had their dogs on PMR for a short period but nothing about a dog for its entire life.... that would be very helpful


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## Liz (Sep 27, 2010)

We have been feeding raw about three years and I have a one year old and a 20 month old who have never tasted kibble. I have two mentors who have been feeding raw for over thirty years - so for several generations of dogs. My own puppies have been weaned directly onto raw. 

blockages due to chew toys, rawhides, socks, rocks, tennis balls, etc are way more common than a perforation by a "raw' bone. Your dog is built to handle the normal bacteria and such found in meat, bone and organ.


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## DaneMama (Jun 27, 2008)

hund said:


> I'm considering putting my dog on raw but I'm a little intimidated.


Welcome to the forum! You've come to the right place to learn how to feed raw :thumb:



> What about bone perforations, how common are they? Pathogens? Bacterias?


Bone perforations are very rare, especially from raw bones. Bone perforations are usually done by COOKED bones, not raw ones because raw bones are a lot softer and easily digested. 

Pathogens and bacteria are everywhere, not just on food. Are they present on raw foods, yes but they are also present on kibble foods, in the environment, etc. Worrying about these things is valid, but I wouldn't worry about it in regards to raw feeding because with a species appropriate diet comes a stronger, more resilient immune system to combat pathogens dogs come across in everyday life. My six girls have eaten some pretty gnarly, stinky meat and have never gotten sick from it (albeit my dogs are used to these things and have been eating raw for years....I don't suggest giving rotten meat to newly switched dogs!). 



> I'm interested and have the gist of what to do (I know to start with chicken backs/necks) but I AM scared of hurting my dog with good intentions....


Not to mention you have the world's best support team to guide you through your transition! We will help dispel your worries and intimidation :wink: 



> Has anyone on here had their dogs on raw for one of your dogs entire livespan? I have heard a lot from people that have had their dogs on PMR for a short period but nothing about a dog for its entire life.... that would be very helpful


Yes, four of our dogs have been raised since puppyhood on a PMR diet. Shiloh is almost 6, Akasha is almost 4, Zuri is just over 2 and Panda is 10 months. All have been the picture of health! I will admit that I was skeptical at first when switching a giant breed puppy to raw and if it would be "enough" for them. Well, I would never choose to raise a dog on kibble ever since going raw. Most people who have done kibble and switched to raw would agree with me too. 

Keep asking questions as its the best way to learn!


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## doggoblin (Jun 6, 2011)

Bone perforations etc. I can't think of any occasion on a couple of forums I've heard any raw feeder who has experienced it. If it's a regular or even common thing it would seem strange as I know I would scream about it on any raw feeding forum.

Choking hazard, we had one dog choke on kibble. Puts things into perspective.

http://k9joy.com/dogarticles/doghealth01salmonella.pdf is an interesting read regarding salmonella etc.


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## naturalfeddogs (Jan 6, 2011)

Fear is normal in the beginning. We have all been there. Your dog, by nature is designed to handle all the bones and bacteria. Otherwise, wolves and other wild carnivores wouldn't still be around after so many thousands of years.

Here is a site to read that will be a huge help. It was started by members of this board, Natalie and Jon.(Danemamma and Jdatwood) How to Get Started | Prey Model Raw

We are glad to have you!


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## kathylcsw (Jul 31, 2011)

I have 2 small dogs on a raw diet and they have never had any problems with bones. Lola is 14 months old and was on partial raw from 4-6 months old. She went to full raw 7 1/2 months ago. She is an 8 lb Jack Russell Terrier - yes she is a small JRT! Buster is a 7 lb, 9 month old Toy Fox Terrier who has been on raw since I brought him home at 8 weeks old. Thye are doing well on a raw diet with no choking or perforations!


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## hund (Aug 7, 2012)

Well I decided to start very slowly. She is now on a chicken quarter every second day. I know not to mix the kibble with the meat so they are fed at separate intervals. Her poops seem to be ok other then a bit of mucous (normal??). What do you guy think of pre-mades? I have access to a quality pre-made that is using only a bone/meat/organ blend from grass fed animals. The selections are beef, chicken, goat, lamb, rabbit, elk and venison. Made locally. 
The pre-mades are more affordable then most meats that I have access to...? I would probably just purchase the "odd" meat items like elk and goat and then the rest would be PMR... 
Any advice? 
Oh, and thank you all for your stories and info! Very much appreciated.


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## hund (Aug 7, 2012)

Any advice?


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## SaharaNight Boxers (Jun 28, 2011)

I think some premades are great. I feed Blue Ridge Beef and it's all meat, some is grass fed. Your premade sounds good too. Do you're alternating raw and kibble every other day?


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## LilasMom (Mar 10, 2012)

I have found that the premades are extremely expensive compared to actual whole meats. Kibble and raw should be fed at least 7-8 hours apart. Mucous is normal. 

Premades are okay, but for me prey model is easier for several reasons. One is ground meat has a higher surface area for bacteria and also you don't really get to pick what your dog gets. 80-10-5-5 is a general guideline for raw, but some dogs need different amounts. My yorkie can go over a day with no bone and stay firm, but my maltese must have bone every other meal. If my yorkie had 10% bone in her food everyday her poops would be very hard. 

If you find some good sources, prey model will be much cheaper.


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## hund (Aug 7, 2012)

SaharaNight Boxers said:


> I think some premades are great. I feed Blue Ridge Beef and it's all meat, some is grass fed. Your premade sounds good too. Do you're alternating raw and kibble every other day?


Right now I feed a chicken quarter every other day. Just kind of as a starting point. I AM kind of nervous I will admit it


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## SaharaNight Boxers (Jun 28, 2011)

hund said:


> Right now I feed a chicken quarter every other day. Just kind of as a starting point. I AM kind of nervous I will admit it


Just do it, trust me. Duke seemed like a new dog in a week. No more ear problems, happier seeming, excited to eat, more energy, and his coat is amazing. He is seriously so soft feeling! And his mange spot started filling it almost immediately without even using the borax mix. He's doing great and we're introing quail next week.


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## hund (Aug 7, 2012)

LilasMom said:


> I have found that the premades are extremely expensive compared to actual whole meats. Kibble and raw should be fed at least 7-8 hours apart. Mucous is normal.
> 
> Premades are okay, but for me prey model is easier for several reasons. One is ground meat has a higher surface area for bacteria and also you don't really get to pick what your dog gets. 80-10-5-5 is a general guideline for raw, but some dogs need different amounts. My yorkie can go over a day with no bone and stay firm, but my maltese must have bone every other meal. If my yorkie had 10% bone in her food everyday her poops would be very hard.
> 
> If you find some good sources, prey model will be much cheaper.


I have been researching raw for about 6 months. I have looked and LOOKED for any easy access meat and honestly EVERYTHING is pricey here. I can not find any abattoirs or local butchers, all I have are grocery stores which charge an arm and a leg for everything other then chicken. Beef is around 4 dollars or more per pound whereas the pre-made is around 3.50/pound and it includes the meat and bone. 
If I were to feed raw I would include pre-made as a more affordable meat source mixed with PMR when I could get good deals or when my family hunts (my uncles hunt a lot of deer, moose and elk). The pre-made that I found has proteins like goat and lamb which are unique proteins that I can't easily get a hold of and that would be another reason to purchase them. 
I realize pre-made tends to be bone heavy and that is why I would add more muscle meat and organ when feeding it.
Oh also-- I feed her raw and kibble 10 hours apart.


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

:usa::usa::usa::usa:


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## LilasMom (Mar 10, 2012)

Don't be nervous! Be excited that you are starting you dog on a great diet that not only will be better for him, it will be much more mentally stimulating. What kind of dog do you have? If it helps ease your worry, my littlest is 3.5 pounds and she can handle everything up to pork bones with no digestive upset. 

If I were you, I would cut out the kibble completely (if you are ready). I think when switching from kibble to raw it is best to just jump right in. 

I was a tiny bit nervous in the beginning, but when I saw how much Lila enjoyed eating as compared to kibble, it was a done deal for me. The healthy benefits are great but I think Lila is happier. Meals are now an event rather than just "breakfast, meh I'll eat it later". Lila rushes to meals and I can see her enjoying and savoring every bite. If it was a recreational bone, then almost 100% of the time she takes a satisfied nap after. I literally saw a positive change in her attitude. It was much easier for me to handle the crunching sounds and worries of raw when I focused on how much she enjoyed eating. The healthy benefits are amazing, but it really helped to see a positive effect as soon as I started raw. 

So don't be nervous, you are doing a great thing for your dog. There are so many knowledgable raw feeders here that you will have no shortage of support and advice either.


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## Quossum (Jul 6, 2011)

A little late to the party, but...

The dog in my siggie, Flame, is a borzoi, a giant breed with a life expectancy of around 11 years. We've fed raw since '97, so yes, she lived her entire life on raw, starting the day she got off the plane and came to our house. She had a congenital heart condition (not uncommon in the breed). She lived a life of amazing good health, never had a dental, shocked my new vet with her health and condition for her age at the time, and aside from the heart defect never had any health issues. She died just short of 13 years of age, when her heart condition caught up with her.

All my other dogs (10, 9, 3, and 8 mo.) have eaten raw all their lives, too. They're all still alive and healthy. 

Hope this helps!

--Q


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## hund (Aug 7, 2012)

magicre said:


> i'm not sure i understand the reasoning behind the every other day raw feeding.....
> *The reason I have been chicken quarters every second day was for the dental benefits. I wasn't sure (still not completely sure) if I wanted to do full PMR. *
> the mucous is normal...it's the shedding of the intestinal lining....
> *Ok good to know!*
> ...


Thank you for all of the advice!!


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## hund (Aug 7, 2012)

LilasMom said:


> Don't be nervous! Be excited that you are starting you dog on a great diet that not only will be better for him, it will be much more mentally stimulating. What kind of dog do you have? If it helps ease your worry, my littlest is 3.5 pounds and she can handle everything up to pork bones with no digestive upset.
> 
> If I were you, I would cut out the kibble completely (if you are ready). I think when switching from kibble to raw it is best to just jump right in.
> 
> ...


I want to research it a bit more before I jump right on. I'm a very tentative type of person lol.


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## hund (Aug 7, 2012)

Quossum said:


> A little late to the party, but...
> 
> The dog in my siggie, Flame, is a borzoi, a giant breed with a life expectancy of around 11 years. We've fed raw since '97, so yes, she lived her entire life on raw, starting the day she got off the plane and came to our house. She had a congenital heart condition (not uncommon in the breed). She lived a life of amazing good health, never had a dental, shocked my new vet with her health and condition for her age at the time, and aside from the heart defect never had any health issues. She died just short of 13 years of age, when her heart condition caught up with her.
> 
> ...


This helps VERY much. Do you feed PMR or barf?


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## Quossum (Jul 6, 2011)

hund said:


> This helps VERY much. Do you feed PMR or barf?


Starting so long ago, I have been through every variation of raw feeding. When I first started, it was all about Billinghurst and Schultze, BARF style diets consisting of one meal of RMB's and the other meal of "patty mix" consisting of ground beef and vegetables. Like many BARFers of the day, I purchased a super-nice Champion grinder and we spent one day a month creating massive amounts of the patty mix with ground veggies mixed with ground beef, which we packaged and froze.

That all did get a bit tedious, so it was something of a relief to come upon the PMR model. More research, and without a backwards glance we switched to that style. We upped the organ and fish proportions from what we'd been doing, but I feel we've missed nothing by stopping with the veggies. I guess we've been doing pure PMR for the last, oh...seven to ten years or so. No regrets!

My dogs are so used to eating *meat* that my puppy, when offered a Milk Bone (poor-quality grain-based treat) by a kind store clerk, recoiled in horror and wouldn't eat it. 

We are very, very casual about feeding, and our way probably wouldn't work for everyone. No measuring, weighing, or obsessing allowed. Balance over time. If dog feels skinny, feed more. If dog feels fat, feed less. We buy from grocery stores when we can and from the incomparable Bones2Go. We usually have some freeze-dried (like Honest Kitchen) or high-quality kibble on hand in case of emergency (though we've been out for a while, oopsie!), so we're not like, "kibble is poison!!!1!!", but seriously...we wouldn't feed any other way but raw.

--Q


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