# HELP!!! Local GAS CHAMBER!!



## qnkmatson (Feb 28, 2010)

It has been recently brought to my attention, and the attention of several other in my community, that our pound is currently using a co2 gas chamber to euthanize animals and then dumping them in the county dump!

This is NOT ok! I understand, as sad as it is, that sometimes dogs need to be euthanized. However, a gas chamber is NOT a humane way of doing so. Especially since both of the wardens are certified to euthanize by injections, but are currently choosing not to do so!

Please visit the following website to show your support or email the local commissioners or whatever you see fit. Stop the gassing at the Fayette County Dog Pound

We are willing to FIGHT strong and hard for this! And we would appreciate anyone's advice and support in doing so! 

Thank you all so very much!! I am the owner of a rescue mutt and she's the greatest thing that has ever happened to my husband and I! I couldn't imagine getting another dog but her! I also couldn't imagine a sweetheart like her never getting a second chance at life because some cruel, inhumane person decided to stuff her in a box and suffocate her!

Ok, I apologize for the rant. I just am absolutely APPALLED that all this has been going on and no one knew about it! Thank you all so much for anything you can offer in terms of support!! You are all AMAZING people!


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## rannmiller (Jun 27, 2008)

Wow I wasn't sure if shelters still used this method! I know the Elko Animal Shelter in NV used to do this when I worked there in 2005 but I have no idea if they still do. It is extremely sad to see the poor pups with tails wagging thinking they're finally going to go for a walk, then they get near that gas chamber and they just know they aren't coming out. The employs hoist in several dogs at a time, usually, shut the door, and turn on the machine. The most heartbreaking thing might be hearing them howl as they go down :frown:
Or dragging out the sad, furry bodies that have defecated all over themselves/each other in their final moments of terror before stuffing them into a trash bag and putting them in a giant chest freezer until the flatbed truck can come by once a week to haul them up the road to the dump (yes, the shelter is about 1/4 mile from the dump in Elko). 

Sorry if that's too graphic for people but it is a truly sickening experience and the only thing humane about it is that the animals finally get to escape their awful fate when they finally succumb to the poison *sigh*


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## DaneMama (Jun 27, 2008)

Something needs to be done. The fact that this happens is appalling and sickening to think about. I think the only thing that will stop things like this from happening is education. Education about responsible pet ownership is all it would take.


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## PUNKem733 (Jun 12, 2009)

rannmiller said:


> Wow I wasn't sure if shelters still used this method! I know the Elko Animal Shelter in NV used to do this when I worked there in 2005 but I have no idea if they still do. It is extremely sad to see the poor pups with tails wagging thinking they're finally going to go for a walk, then they get near that gas chamber and they just know they aren't coming out. The employs hoist in several dogs at a time, usually, shut the door, and turn on the machine. The most heartbreaking thing might be hearing them howl as they go down :frown:
> Or dragging out the sad, furry bodies that have defecated all over themselves/each other in their final moments of terror before stuffing them into a trash bag and putting them in a giant chest freezer until the flatbed truck can come by once a week to haul them up the road to the dump (yes, the shelter is about 1/4 mile from the dump in Elko).
> 
> Sorry if that's too graphic for people but it is a truly sickening experience and the only thing humane about it is that the animals finally get to escape their awful fate when they finally succumb to the poison *sigh*


OMG!! I didn't need to hear that. People should be euthanized, not animals. After all we're destroying this planet. Jesus I went to the link and watched the gas box, I can't see how people could work there, unless you're a sadist, psychotic a'holes.


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## Khan (Jan 17, 2010)

OMG! I knew better than to watch that. Would like to stick them in there.


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## whiteleo (Sep 7, 2008)

Until people start taking responsibility and fixing their animals and stop the throw away mentality; this will be a sad truth of what happens. 

Maybe if more people were made to see it, it would open their eyes to how life really is for their dogs when they give them up to have a child, or move to a place they can't take them with them.


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## RCTRIPLEFRESH5 (Feb 11, 2010)

rannmiller said:


> Wow I wasn't sure if shelters still used this method! I know the Elko Animal Shelter in NV used to do this when I worked there in 2005 but I have no idea if they still do. It is extremely sad to see the poor pups with tails wagging thinking they're finally going to go for a walk, then they get near that gas chamber and they just know they aren't coming out. The employs hoist in several dogs at a time, usually, shut the door, and turn on the machine. The most heartbreaking thing might be hearing them howl as they go down :frown:
> Or dragging out the sad, furry bodies that have defecated all over themselves/each other in their final moments of terror before stuffing them into a trash bag and putting them in a giant chest freezer until the flatbed truck can come by once a week to haul them up the road to the dump (yes, the shelter is about 1/4 mile from the dump in Elko).
> 
> Sorry if that's too graphic for people but it is a truly sickening experience and the only thing humane about it is that the animals finally get to escape their awful fate when they finally succumb to the poison *sigh*


wow this is messed ujp. why not use injections? does it cost more time and money?? im not sure how gas chambers worked, but i know theyw were used in the holocaust, and the nazis are not known for their human acts of kindness and friendlines.


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## spookychick13 (Jan 26, 2010)

Piling those poor dogs on top of already dead dogs?

Horrible.
Despicable. I hope this gets solved.


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## wags (Jan 31, 2009)

Have you written a letter to your congressman or gotten any petitons going on this matter? Voicing your opinion and letting people in on this is a great way to get things rolling to stop this! Write your congressman and the local area humane shelters and such! It sounds to me like people in your area want this stopped so get them involved in writing to newspapers and anyone who will help out! Good Luck!
Your doing a great service for these animals! Kudos to you!


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## Unosmom (May 3, 2009)

Its a horrible practice and I've been trying to spread the word around the dog loving community around here, since multiple counties still gas animals on weekly basis here in NC and rescues can only do so much due to high costs of boarding and rehabilitation. Check the link in my signature, theres a great organization based in RI that almost weekly pulls dogs and cats from high kill gassing facilities, they recently acquired a property which gives them a great opportunity to board multiple animals without having to pay boarding costs, they still need weekly donating to assist with vet and transport fees. 
If you can please spread the word and support davie's law:
Urge NC Senate to Pass Davie's Law! | Animal Law Coalition


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## kevin bradley (Aug 9, 2009)

thanks for your work on this...

sickening. I had to stop the video. 

I think when all your Dogs come from the shelter, it's even more hard hitting. 

I've got to be a little careful because I'm pretty revved up after reading this and watching 1/2 the video....

but I'm gonna say it anyway...

I think anyone who BREEDS Dogs or goes to a breeder...or doesn't get their Dog fixed...is cruel. Period. I know this will rub many of you the wrong way but it is beyond me...w/ this type of garbage going on every day, literally MILLIONS of this earth's most perfect and loving animals...being destroyed barbarically like this....and we have people replenishing us with more and more of them every day...

This is all I will say and as I said, I realize this will rub some of you wrong, but I can't hide it and it needs to be said. 

QUIT BREEDING MORE AND MORE DOGS. GO TO A DAM SHELTER IF YOU WANT A DOG.


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## luvMyBRT (Mar 8, 2010)

I agree and disagree with your points. Here is my rant.....:wink:

I feel that if you are purchasing a puppy from a responsible, reputable, ethical breeder it is okay. I am talking about breeders that test their breeding dogs for genetic problems such as hip and elbow displasia, etc. I am talking about breeders that screen their puppy buyers to make sure they are going to good homes. I am talking about breeders whose purpose is the betterment of the breed. I am talking about breeders who are willing to take any puppy back for whatever reason. Breeders that care about the health of their breeding stock and their puppies. Breeders that put the utmost importance in finding the right family for their puppies. And only let their puppies go to homes that have responsible pet owners. Breeders that form a life long friendship with puppy owners.

I am NOT talking about puppy mills and backyard breeders. THESE people are the ones who are the problem. The puppy mills who just churn out hunders of puppies for only money. Who have no care in the world about the puppies health and where it will end up. Backyard breeders who breed whatever dogs they want to make money. Owners who DON'T get their PET dogs and cats spayed and neutered and let them run and roam free. Irresponsible pet owners who don't do what they need to do. THESE people are the REAL problem. 

That's just how I feel about the matter....and I respect your opinion. :smile:


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## PUNKem733 (Jun 12, 2009)

I watched a vid of dogs being put to sleep with injections, and honestly that didn't bother me at all. It was so peaceful, no howling or anything, they just put their heads down and look like they go to sleep. They were talking to the female tech who performs it, and she was crying talking about how she coddles the dog, and whispers sweet things to them. I can't see how you'd use a gas box. I think they are doing it cause it's quicker, you can shove a bunch of animals in, rather than take the time to do each animal one at a time. 

I think it's laziness, that has these TRUE savages gassing these animals.


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## qnkmatson (Feb 28, 2010)

Thanks everyone for the support! I'm sure this is going to be a tough battle and I really appreciate it!

There are several things in the works currently. Monday there will be a county commissioners meeting and several people are supposed to be attending that to speak out to the commissioners on WHY they are allowing this to continue. Also a petition is being started since there are several supporters who will not be able to attend the meeting, because its at 9 am on a Monday. 

Again, thank you all so much for the support! It makes me sick to think about the suffering those poor babies have to go through!! Especially when there are more painless options available!

As far as the wardens, I have attempted to talk to them on several occasions when we were first looking to adopt a puppy. They both were rude and heartless. Knew NOTHING about the dogs we were asking about and seemed to have little interest in finding them a forever home. When we attempted to adopt from them they said she has already been taken somewhere else. When we asked where, so that we could contact them to get her the said they didn't know. I asked about looking in the adoption paperwork and got a rude remark about how busy they were and that they would get back to me. Needless to say that never happened...and it breaks my heart to think what could have happened to that little puppy!! 

People need to be educated! Breeders aren't bad...but just make sure you find a reputable one. But the best dogs, the ones with the most love to give, are the ones that have been in horrible situations before and will be so happy to love you just because you gave them another chance at life!


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## malluver1005 (Nov 15, 2009)

Oh my goodness gracious!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I didn't see when they turned on the gas because I couldn't take it. Who are these monsters????



PUNKem733 said:


> OMG!! I didn't need to hear that. People should be euthanized, not animals. After all we're destroying this planet. Jesus I went to the link and watched the gas box, I can't see how people could work there, unless you're a sadist, psychotic a'holes.


And yes!!! People should be euthanized!!!!!


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## PUNKem733 (Jun 12, 2009)

qnkmatson said:


> Thanks everyone for the support! I'm sure this is going to be a tough battle and I really appreciate it!
> 
> There are several things in the works currently. Monday there will be a county commissioners meeting and several people are supposed to be attending that to speak out to the commissioners on WHY they are allowing this to continue. Also a petition is being started since there are several supporters who will not be able to attend the meeting, because its at 9 am on a Monday.
> 
> ...


I believe when a group of people put there minds in achieving a common goal, that goal can be reached. You may call it prayer, positive thoughts, or whatever; we should all wish these wardens a horrifying, mutant strain of Ebola or cancer. Then when they need medical help, sow them the gas box, and tell them hop inside, we'll take the pain away. It would be great to watch them howl. God I am so infuriated, I'm damn near shaking. 

I know it is horrible of me to think this, or feel this way, but I can't help it. I never, EVER wish people ill will, but I just can't help it.


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## xxshaelxx (Mar 8, 2010)

In my opinion, I don't think breeding dogs is bad, as long as it's coming from a reputable breeder, as stated before. What disgusts me is all of the people SELLING puppies on CraigsList, or people looking for stud services. I mean, seriously? If you have to sell your puppies or dog's sperm on an Internet advertising site, then OBVIOUSLY you shouldn't be breeding the damned dogs, and OBVIOUSLY you don't give half a rats arse about them! If only it were possible to eradicate all of the puppy mill businesses and backyard breeding, we wouldn't even need shelters or humane societies or rescues. And yes, I classify anything as Backyard Breeding except for people who show their dogs, breed them only a FEW (like three of four) times in their lives, screen potential buyers, test for genetic defects, and FOR GAWDSAKE, don't let the puppies go before eight to twelve weeks OLD! Same goes for the poor kittens...Saw someone advertising to sell kittens when they hit FIVE WEEKS old!

People are sick and twisted...It reminds me so much of the Holocaust, gassing dogs....It's just like gassing people, loading them all up into a small room and shutting the doors. How can anyone listen to the helpless screams without even blinking? I really, honestly wish that people like that could experience the feelings of horror and terror that those dogs (and people) went through in their last moments of life, if not to die, but only to learn a lesson about compassion.


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## kevin bradley (Aug 9, 2009)

I understand what everyone is saying about "responsible breeders" and I respect your opinion. 

Diplomatically...I say this...I suppose responsible breeders are not DIRECTLY to blame for the problem. 

However, I would say this...they certainly don't HELP the problem of overpopulation by continuing to breed. 

Responsible or not, for every NEW dog they bring into the world, it virtually automatically means that person wanting a Dog WON'T go to a shelter. 

It would be nice if Breeders would just STOP for awhile until we can get a handle on the overpopulation and cruel Euthanization of Dogs and Cats(I don't believe much breeding of Cats goes on though)...

Again, I respect everyone's opinion and certainly there are Breeders more unethical than others. But again, every new dog brought into the world is an immediate death sentence for a Shelter Dog.


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## CorgiPaws (Mar 31, 2009)

kevin bradley said:


> I think anyone who BREEDS Dogs or goes to a breeder...or doesn't get their Dog fixed...is cruel. Period.


1. Two of my four are from breeders, and I have NO regrets on it, I'd do it again, and I'm NOT cruel to my pets. BOTH of those dogs have contracts that if for any reason I am unable to keep them, I MUST take them back to the breeder at any time in their lives, and not dump them in a shelter. 

2. I know PLENTY of people with intact dogs due to their beliefs on the health benefits of keeping a dog in tact, who do nto contribute to the overpopulation issue one bit. That's a matter of being a responsible pet owner or not, NOT a matter of intact/ fixed. 

I find this statement to be INCREDIBLY narrow minded and self righteous. I suppose my GSD mix that I took in from an abusive situation, rehabilitated, did extensive training with on his male aggression from a year of being beat violently, spent hundreds and hundreds of dollars getting him fit to be a family pet doesn't matter when I have two other dogs from breeders does it? No, I'm cruel. period. I guess the hundreds of hours I've volunteered for shelters and rescues doesn't matter. No. I'm cruel. Period. I get the hundreds of miles put on my cars transporting rescue animals to new homes doesnt matter, because I'm cruel. Period. 

And I guess the fact that my next dog will be a quality Pembroke Welsh Corgi female intended for breeding pretty much makes me the worst person on earth, right?




kevin bradley said:


> Diplomatically...I say this...I suppose responsible breeders are not DIRECTLY to blame for the problem.
> 
> However, I would say this...they certainly don't HELP the problem of overpopulation by continuing to breed.


I will say that in search of a Boxer from a great breeder, I found a hard time even finding one that didn't have a wait list a few years long, or had a litter even planned. 
You make it sound like responsible breeders are just churning out litter after litter, and it's not the case. I am very muchso passionate about the preservation of my breeds, and yes, it does irk me to see someone bashing good breeding practices.





kevin bradley said:


> Responsible or not, for every NEW dog they bring into the world, it virtually automatically means that person wanting a Dog WON'T go to a shelter.


Wrong, wrong, wrong!!! I know plenty of people who will ONLY go to breeder, and if there weren't any, probably just wouldn't have a dog. To me, health testing is too important to give up. I have other pets in my house that I'll be totally honest, are by far my first priority. As long as I have Champ, there's no way I could bring an adult male dog into my house. Puppy, sure, adult, no. It's not even an option. I want a male Boxer in the future, and you betcha he'll come from a breeder. 
I will also say that almost EVERY breeder I spoke with about puppies that didn't have any, or had wait lists forever long actually recommended going to a rescue. Such terrible, cruel people. 




kevin bradley said:


> But again, every new dog brought into the world is an immediate death sentence for a Shelter Dog.


wrong. 
Some people won't give up health testing. 
Some people won't give up puppyhood. 
Some people won't want to deal with the damage previous owners might have done. 
Some people can't risk the wellbeing of their children or other pets. 





I will say that of COURSE I'm not against rescuing. Heck, just last month I was trying to rescue but it didn't work out. I volunteer my time and money to many rescues and shelters. I support rescue. I support shelters. But I do know that it's not the route for every single person, and I don't think that those people should be judged for it. Pet shops, puppy mills, and BYBs are another story. But in all reality, A LOT of people don't even understand that. The woman that I got my cocker spaniel from had gotten her from a pet store and was in TEARS when I told her the horrors of puppy mills and pet shops. She had NO idea becaused the pet store told her that they "don't use puppy mills, only USDA approved breeders" Now you and I both know that doesn't meak diddly squat, but for people not so immersed in the world of dogs, BYBs and pet shops have a way of making their business out to be not so bad. 



/end rant


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## kevin bradley (Aug 9, 2009)

Linsey,

I'm not self righteous about this issue....and I took to heart many of your comments. 

I'll give you this point...I suppose some just won't ever get a Dog from a Shelter so if they can't have some pure breed, they just won't get a Dog. 
But surely you must admit that doesn't apply to ALL. And I'd say if there were fewere BREEDERS, some of those people you think would NEVER adopt from a shelter might change their tune. Hell, how do we know WHAT they'd do as it takes my one second in the newspaper to find 4,000 people turning out new litters. And for ALL these people you THINK would never go to a shelter....funny, in my experience, if you can talk with many of these people, explain to them how great a shelter Dog can be, you can turn them quickly to your way of thinking. I've done it twice in the last year and it wasn't even difficult. AND, these people were HEADED to Breeders before going to the local Humane Society.

So if we didn't have all of these Breeders, you believe the number of dogs euthanized every year wouldn't be impacted positively(decreased)? Seriously? Is this your stance? Anyone who believes that is pretty naive or biased towards pure bred Dogs. It's simple math. Less Dogs brought into the world would mean less Dogs euthanized. 

I give you credit for your volunteering. However, were there fewer breeders out there churning out Dogs, possibly you wouldn't NEED to volunteer at shelters as much. 

We won't agree on this issue. Period. I never once said you TREATED your Dogs cruel. I said the process of breeding new dogs while some shelter is gasing another lot is cruel. Big difference. 

Just because you aren't RESPONSIBLE for the problem doesn't mean you can't positively impact the problem. One addl point, as I recall, I saw a stat once that said a large number of dogs IN shelters CAME from breeders!....now you've got your example of responsible breeders and thats fine and all...I'm not going to split hairs over some small portion of the trainwreck of a process that contributes to almost 4 million dogs being killed every year. 

I know I could never bring more animals into the world knowing that about 3 or 4 million are euthanized every year. Self Righteous?...if that's what you call it, I'm ok with being SELF RIGHTEOUS. Again, we just won't agree on this issue. Ever.

You are right on one point....not EVERY bred dog means death to a shelter dog....but Linsey, even if it means only 1 out of 4 Dogs, that's ONE MILLION Dogs that would have been adopted.


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## xxshaelxx (Mar 8, 2010)

kevin bradley said:


> It would be nice if Breeders would just STOP for awhile until we can get a handle on the overpopulation and cruel Euthanization of Dogs and Cats(I don't believe much breeding of Cats goes on though)...


Oh yeah, stop breeding dogs. No more purebred, good quality, health tested dogs. You know, there is probably only about a five to six year period in which is safe and humane to breed dogs. It would take a LOT longer than that to get a handle on the pet overpopulation issue. If all breeders were to stop breeding their dogs for five to six years, there would be no dogs left to breed, and all we would be left with are the mutts that idiots irresponsibly breed.

MANY dog breeds are bred for a REASON. Siberian Huskies and Alaskan Malamutes are bred to pull sleds. They are still employed in places like Antarctica. Australian Shepherds, Border Collies, etc., bred to herd. Labs, Pointers, etc., bred for hunting.

What you suggest is ridiculous, because if all the reputable breeders were to stop breeding, all of these breeds will be diminished to horrible quality breeding stock, when most of these people working their dogs are looking for dogs of good quality for the jobs that they're bred to do.



> Hell, how do we know WHAT they'd do as it takes my one second in the newspaper to find 4,000 people turning out new litters.


THESE are not good quality dogs. THESE are backyard bred dogs. THESE are untested dogs. THESE are dogs most likely to be rebred, have health issues, and end up at shelters.



> funny, in my experience, if you can talk with many of these people, explain to them how great a shelter Dog can be, you can turn them quickly to your way of thinking. I've done it twice in the last year and it wasn't even difficult. AND, these people were HEADED to Breeders before going to the local Humane Society.


I own two purebred Siberian Huskies from a BREEDER. Oh yeah, I'm SO horrible. Well, you know what? There are REASONS I went through a breeder. I have dreamed of owning a Siberian Husky my whole life, and about a year ago, I was in a really rough spot. I was down on myself, depressed, going nowhere in life, and suicidal. I decided that a dog was what I needed, and I wasn't going to settle for anything less than what I'd dreamt of my whole life, because for once, I wanted to be selfish in some other way than wanting to off myself. So yes, I decided I was getting a Siberian Husky, BUT, I have cats, cats that I am unwilling to let go of, cats that I love to death, and if you don't know, Siberian Huskies are natural predators. I couldn't just get myself a grown Siberian Husky from a shelter knowing full well that it'd probably eventually turn on my cats (because even if they're good with one cat, they might see another and go "OH FOOD!" That is what my dogs do around other cats than my own). So I needed a puppy. Not only that, but my cats had never been around a dog.

There is NO way you--or anyone else for that matter--would have changed my mind.



> One addl point, as I recall, I saw a stat once that said a large number of dogs IN shelters CAME from breeders!


Umm..yeah, BACKYARD BREEDERS. Any responsible breeder has it in their contract that if, for any reason, you are unable to keep the dog, it goes back to the breeder. I am not ALLOWED to rehome my dogs. I'm not ALLOWED to take them to a shelter. It would be illegal. If I could no longer have my dogs, I would be FORCED to give them back to my breeder for her to find a new home for them, and she does.

AND if someone goes through the trouble of finding a reputable breeder, they're less likely to give up their dog. I mean, seriously, have you never seen the process it takes to get a dog from a reputable breeder? I spent DAYS on the phone with my breeder. MOST of them have forms you have to fill out. I was denied a puppy because I wanted to show him, and they wouldn't allow ANY puppy of theirs to go out with ANY breeding rights to ANYONE who MIGHT be thinking of breeding.​


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## CorgiPaws (Mar 31, 2009)

kevin bradley said:


> I'm not self righteous about this issue....and I took to heart many of your comments.


As did I. It bothers me that someone would call me cruel based off of my two dogs from breeders, and state it so matter-of-factly. Like there's nothing else that plays into role. period. 



kevin bradley said:


> I'll give you this point...I suppose some just won't ever get a Dog from a Shelter so if they can't have some pure breed, they just won't get a Dog.
> But surely you must admit that doesn't apply to ALL.


No, of course it doesn't apply to all. Just some. No statementcan be applied to all people.



kevin bradley said:


> Hell, how do we know WHAT they'd do as it takes my one second in the newspaper to find 4,000 people turning out new litters.


I don't consider 99% of breeders advertising in the newspaper to be reputable breeders. In fact I don't know of a reputable breeder that advertises at all. It's all word of mouth and club recommendations. Aside from show breeders who have their dogs in magazines, of course. 



kevin bradley said:


> And for ALL these people you THINK would never go to a shelter....funny, in my experience, if you can talk with many of these people, explain to them how great a shelter Dog can be, you can turn them quickly to your way of thinking. I've done it twice in the last year and it wasn't even difficult. AND, these people were HEADED to Breeders before going to the local Humane Society.


I'm not saying there's a huge population who won't. What I do know is a lot of people just can't take in the baggage. 



kevin bradley said:


> So if we didn't have all of these Breeders, you believe the number of dogs euthanized every year wouldn't be impacted positively(decreased)? Seriously? Is this your stance? Anyone who believes that is pretty naive or biased towards pure bred Dogs. It's simple math. Less Dogs brought into the world would mean less Dogs euthanized.


I don't believe that dogs from ETHICAL breeders impact the shelters nearly what puppy mills and BYB's do. I have a hard time putting an ethical breeder who health tests, has a legit contract, carefully places puppies, plans breedings years in advance, etc in the same category as puppy mills and BYB's. 



kevin bradley said:


> I give you credit for your volunteering. However, were there fewer breeders out there churning out Dogs, possibly you wouldn't NEED to volunteer at shelters as much.


Ethical breeders aren't out there just "churning out dogs" they are maintaining the dignity of their breed, and placing puppies very carefully into homes. 
When I got my Annie from her breeder, I had a phone interview that lasted over three hours. I sent pictures of my home in. I had to provide four personal references. And yes, she checked them ALL. And this was all before even being placed on the WAIT LIST. And yes, she had a wait list. Homes found for puppies that weren't even on the ground yet. 
When I got my cat from the shelter.... sign here, pay the man at the desk, bring my corgi in to make sure she didn't attack dogs, and she was ours. 
In fact, I've even heard of some rescues BREEDING dogs of that breed to make money off the puppies inflated "adoption fees" so just as all breeders are not created equally, there's more than a few shady rescues out there, too.




kevin bradley said:


> We won't agree on this issue. Period. I never once said you TREATED your Dogs cruel. I said the process of breeding new dogs while some shelter is gasing another lot is cruel. Big difference.


really? hmmm. odd. 


kevin bradley said:


> I think anyone who BREEDS Dogs or goes to a breeder...or doesn't get their Dog fixed...is cruel. Period


You may not have said that I treat my dogs cruel, but you did say that I am a cruel person. I FULLY INTEND to breed pemmies, I got my dogs from a breeder, and by golly, Chesney is in tact!! I am just a terrible, terrible person.I wonder how I sleep at night. 



kevin bradley said:


> Just because you aren't RESPONSIBLE for the problem doesn't mean you can't positively impact the problem. One addl point, as I recall, I saw a stat once that said a large number of dogs IN shelters CAME from breeders!....now you've got your example of responsible breeders and thats fine and all...I'm not going to split hairs over some small portion of the trainwreck of a process that contributes to almost 4 million dogs being killed every year.


I am not ignorant to the pet overpopulation issue. I get it. It sickens me. I just don't feel the need to group ALL breeders in the same category just because there are so many awful ones out there. That's not fair to the ones doing it right. At all. 



kevin bradley said:


> I know I could never bring more animals into the world knowing that about 3 or 4 million are euthanized every year. Self Righteous?...if that's what you call it, I'm ok with being SELF RIGHTEOUS. Again, we just won't agree on this issue. Ever.


I didn't call you self righteous because you don't want to breed dogs. I think it came across VERY self righteous calling everyone who goes to breeders cruel. 



kevin bradley said:


> You are right on one point....not EVERY bred dog means death to a shelter dog....but Linsey, even if it means only 1 out of 4 Dogs, that's ONE MILLION Dogs that would have been adopted.


I recognize that, I just know of a lot of people that want a purebred dog, from an ETHICAL breeder, or no dog at all. I've gone BOTH routes. 




I'm sure that I'll get some terrible image on here now, but it's just my opinion. I'm not againt shelters an d breed rescues. I think puppy mills, BYBs, pet shops, and irresponsible owners are to blame. I do not feel that ethical breeders having a litter every year or two that do it all right are to blame for very many of these homeless pets at all. In fact, due to the economy, Annie's breeder just took an eight year old boxer she placed that long ago. She took this senior dog back because it was from HER breeding and therefore HER responsibility. She also kept him until a suitable home was found, but did NOT let one of HER dogs go to the shelter.


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## spookychick13 (Jan 26, 2010)

I see both sides of this debate, but I have to throw in my 2 cents.

Responsible breeders are few and far between in many cases. If you can find one that TRULY delivers as promised, more power to you, I suppose. To the good breeders out there who truly love their dogs, I say, "THANK YOU!!"

I think the world of dog showing/breeding is becoming frighteningly akin to pageantry and quite frankly the state of some of the current popular breeds is appalling. I know that people will flame me for this, and feel free, I am just stating my opinion here, but some breeds look awful to me. I honestly believe a stacked shepherd looks crippled. I think that cockers (sorry Linsey, I think Chesney is adorable and the exception to the rule) are mostly genetic disasters who look like they have something inherently wrong with them. Same with most chihuahuas. We see so many goldens and labs with epilepsy and cancer it's heartbreaking. Why are some breeds so prone to this? Selective breeding...for looks? I don't even know what breeders are trying to achieve anymore. 

Heck before anyone gets defensive, I will pick on one of my own breeds...Cavalier King Charles Spaniels. Jack is fortunate in the fact that his heart and brain are alright (for now), but he has gone deaf at 4 years old due to poor genetics. I can say in all honestly I would never EVER get another Cavalier again.

I wish some sort of humane breeding law would be put into place, where breeders have to be screened/checked over/approved or something.

I will only ever have rescue dogs.

Here is an interesting thing to watch on the subject:
BBC NEWS | UK | Pedigree dogs plagued by disease


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## luvMyBRT (Mar 8, 2010)

Just my opinion again.....:wink:

Having breeders stop breeding for a while would do NOTHING to help the problem of over filled shelters.

Finding the kind of breeders that myself and others are talking about is hard. Breeders like this are very few and hard to find. Another thing is that if you are purchasing a puppy from a quality breeder the last thing on your mind is to dump the dog at the pound or to let it irresponsibly breed.

I have two children. A 2 year old and a 4 year old. I WILL NOT PUT THEM IN THE PRESENCE OF A DOG THAT I DON'T TRUST OR KNOW IT'S BACKGROUD. When getting a adult dog from the shelter it is hard to know what problems will come along with that dog. For me, getting a puppy from a responsible breeder solves these problems. I will know the puppys background and be able to train/raise it from puppyhood. This is the only dog that I would trust around my kids at this time.

You say just get a puppy from a shelter? That would be great, but I don't know anything about its background or health. We could end up with a puppy with parvo that dies....I would like to keep that experience from happening to my kids if at all possible.

However, I am not saying that I wouldn't adopt a dog from a shelter. I have done my fair share of helping and rescuing dogs in the past. BEFORE I had small children I needed to protect. Once my children are older/moved out I have no problem getting an adult dog that I can work with. I will NOT put any family members in danger by adopting a dog I know nothing about.

The TRUE problem is puppy mills, backyard breeders, and irresponsible pet owners who do not spay and neuter their pets and let them breed/run/roam free. STOP the puppy mills and backyard breeders and part of the problem would be solved. Next, get all pet owners who are NOT responsible breeders to have their pets spayed and neutered. Then, and only then, would the problem be truely solved. :smile:


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## mstngchic2012 (Jan 30, 2010)

I would adopt an adult dog even with small children around. An adult dog is obviously mature so their temperament is set in place. Shelters evaluate these dogs so you know exactly what you are getting.

As far as getting puppies from a responsible breeder isn't always as predictable. There are still temperament issues which can come up creating an ustable dog even if the bitch and dog are stable... there are still genetics which contribute to unstable dogs.

I completely agree with getting control over puppy mills, backyard breeders, and irresponsible pet owners. But that's easier said than done obviously. There are laws out there for puppy mills but they are hard to enforce unfortunately.

But to get back on topic. It's sad that places still resort to these methods. In my opinion there really isn't a humane way of "putting down" an animal. The euthanasia cocktail (sodium pentobarbital) that is injected causes the lungs to basically shut down in turn causing cardiac arrest. Granted it's quick but that's what happens to the animals.


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## RCTRIPLEFRESH5 (Feb 11, 2010)

qnkmatson said:


> It has been recently brought to my attention, and the attention of several other in my community, that our pound is currently using a co2 gas chamber to euthanize animals and then dumping them in the county dump!
> 
> This is NOT ok! I understand, as sad as it is, that sometimes dogs need to be euthanized. However, a gas chamber is NOT a humane way of doing so. Especially since both of the wardens are certified to euthanize by injections, but are currently choosing not to do so!
> 
> ...


just watched the video did they dump the last round of dogs in the dumpster alive?


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## mstngchic2012 (Jan 30, 2010)

RCTRIPLEFRESH5 said:


> just watched the video did they dump the last round of dogs in the dumpster alive?


I don't think so. But that video isn't from the Fayette County shelter.


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## luvMyBRT (Mar 8, 2010)

mstngchic2012 said:


> > I would adopt an adult dog even with small children around. An adult dog is obviously mature so their temperament is set in place. Shelters evaluate these dogs so you know exactly what you are getting.
> 
> 
> Even though there are shelter workers who are more knowledgable then others, I would be hesitant to fully trust a shelter workers evaluation of a dog. What makes them think they know exactly how the dog will act in a certain situation? Just because they are mature does not mean that their temperment is set in place and will always be the same. There are many, many different situations where the dog would act one way one time and different the next time. A different environment. Different people. Just different factors. How do they know exactly how the dog will react around small children? Does the shelter have small children that they keep around random dogs for extended periods of time so they can evaluate the dogs behavior? Even though the shelter evaluates so you THINK you know exactly what you are getting, how do you know you won't run into problems later?
> ...


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## PUNKem733 (Jun 12, 2009)

I don't know, I just feel like shelter dogs are the best dogs. They almost instinctively know where they are, and what will happen to them if they stay. Almost as if they can smell death. I've adopted a few times from shelters, and almost always I've taken them into the room to get aquainted with them, they jump on me and absolutely lick me to death as if I have owned them all their lives. 

Almost as if, "please take me away from here...PLEASE!!!"


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## CorgiPaws (Mar 31, 2009)

I think the bottom line is that there is no right or wrong choice when it comes down to ETHICAL breeders or a shelter dog. It's a matter of which route fits best for what you're looking for and what you intend to get out of that dog or puppy. 

It has nothing to do with where the "best dogs" come from or how cruel or kind the individual is. In fact, my SMARTEST dog is Chesney, the pup I got on craigslist (no, I didn' buy her, there was a very very small "rehoming fee" from a woman who bought her and then her landlord said no) and she originally came from a pet shop! She's a great dog! And Champ is probably my second smartest dog. He came from an ex of mine who was severely abusing him, so I simply took him. Annie and Grissom have both come from great breeders, and they're great pets, too! I guess what I'm getting at is it's invalid to say "the best dogs are from *******" 

WONDERFUL dogs are in shelters waiting for loving homes. If I could save them all, I would, but I can't so until then, I'll be volunteering my time and whatever money I can spare. (forever)
There are also WONDERFUL breeders out there with healthy puppies for loving homes. These kinds of breeders are few and far between but their effort is great, their love of the breed is exceptional, and their goals are admirable. It is a slap in the face to group them with the "other" breeders. 

I will never support a puppy mill, backyard breeder, or pet shop, no matter how wonderful the dogs are because of the damage they do.


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## kevin bradley (Aug 9, 2009)

Linsey and others...

I've read and re-read your posts. 

Heck, I'm not even sure we disagree that much on this issue. Some of you that replied consistently make references that the majority of breeders are NOT ethical. I even read a comment that 99% of breeder's are of the unethical sort. Then seriously, how do we disagree THAT much? Because of the 1%? Fine, I have no issue conceding that there are as much as 10% ethical, good breeder's out there. Zero issue with that. 

I don't recall if I said to STOP ALL breeding. I honestly don't and if I did, I retract that stance. Fine, keep RESPONSIBLE breeder's...set up some strict regulations on them...and STOP THE BACKYARD BREEDING. I don't want to destroy the pure breds. My only wish is to stop the millions of Dogs destroyed every year. 

I'll try not to post any more on this issue as I think I hijacked this thread somewhat. My intent was not to inflame everyone with pure bred dogs. I guess I'm just passionate about "mutts" from shelters because I have 3. And the video riled me up...watching that go down while there are people turning out dog after dog just makes me angry.


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## xxshaelxx (Mar 8, 2010)

kevin bradley said:


> Heck, I'm not even sure we disagree that much on this issue. Some of you that replied consistently make references that the majority of breeders are NOT ethical. I even read a comment that 99% of breeder's are of the unethical sort. Then seriously, how do we disagree THAT much? Because of the 1%? Fine, I have no issue conceding that there are as much as 10% ethical, good breeder's out there. Zero issue with that.
> 
> I don't recall if I said to STOP ALL breeding. I honestly don't and if I did, I retract that stance. Fine, keep RESPONSIBLE breeder's...set up some strict regulations on them...and STOP THE BACKYARD BREEDING. I don't want to destroy the pure breds. My only wish is to stop the millions of Dogs destroyed every year.


You said that ANYONE who breeds is cruel. That is what flamed us up, because not everyone is unethical, and we didn't want you grouping those who are reputable in with those who are not, because they are not the problem. 

Yes, it would be nice to stop all of the backyard breeding, and the puppy mills, and the accidental breedings by irresponsible parties, but that is never going to happen unless there is a MASS movement to enlighten people on the dangers of owning a dog that is bred by a BYB or Puppy Mill, and I don't mean one hour long documentary on Animal Planet that is only shown at 1:00 in the morning... (because that's when I saw it). I mean, the news would need to be plastered all over NBC, CBS, FOX, ABC, and the other news broadcasters around the world that I don't know about. Make it a big deal, like a war, not just a movement within the dedicated pet community. I can imagine that ninety percent of the people who walk through a humane society's doors do not know anything about these issues, before or AFTER they leave...it's sad, but it's the truth.

Backyard Breeders and Puppy Mills aren't going to stop what they're doing just because it's unethical. They're in the business to make money, and by golly are they doing just that! I've seen puppy mill dogs sold for $3,000 in pet shops! I doubt the workers in pet shops even know where these dogs come from, aside from the owner or people who order the dogs...

I do my best to educate people who I know what to get a dog. I don't know how many people I've told since getting my puppies to do their research of different breeds and to never go through pet shops and to always find a breeder who is ethical in every way. But I can only help so many people, and I can't say that they're going to turn around and do the same. We can educate people into making the right choice, but it's not going to mean they will be as passionate about the issues as we are, and that's also what's really sad. Also a huge reason why I hate people. I mean, even my husband is stupid about these things. He knows DAMN well about the issues, comes to me one day telling me that one of the people at his old work wanted a dog from my breeder (who I've recently found out ISN'T the most ethical breeder(not when my dog's mothers already have another litter, and my dogs were seven and eight months old when the litters were born. -.-)).

Anyways, I'm rambling. Gotta go out shopping for good meat deals for the dogs.​


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## luvMyBRT (Mar 8, 2010)

kevin bradley said:


> I don't recall if I said to STOP ALL breeding. I honestly don't and if I did, I retract that stance. Fine, keep RESPONSIBLE breeder's...set up some strict regulations on them...and STOP THE BACKYARD BREEDING. I don't want to destroy the pure breds. My only wish is to stop the millions of Dogs destroyed every year.


Maybe going back and re-reading your posts from page 1 would be helpful in refreshing your memory. :wink:

I think that the people who have bought from breeders and are going to buy from breeders felt offended by certain statements, me included.

In July we will be purchasing a Black Russian Terrier puppy from a reputable breeder. I won't even go into detail about what I had to go through to be put on the waiting list. I have been waiting for this puppy for a VERY long time. :smile:

All we can do is try to educate as many people as possible in any way that we can. We can do what is right and try to set the example. Be a responsible pet owner and try to educate others on how important it is. :smile:


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## mstngchic2012 (Jan 30, 2010)

saraj2878 said:


> Even though there are shelter workers who are more knowledgable then others, I would be hesitant to fully trust a shelter workers evaluation of a dog. What makes them think they know exactly how the dog will act in a certain situation? Just because they are mature does not mean that their temperment is set in place and will always be the same. There are many, many different situations where the dog would act one way one time and different the next time. A different environment. Different people. Just different factors. How do they know exactly how the dog will react around small children? Does the shelter have small children that they keep around random dogs for extended periods of time so they can evaluate the dogs behavior? Even though the shelter evaluates so you THINK you know exactly what you are getting, how do you know you won't run into problems later?
> 
> I have absolutly NO problem adopting an adult dog from a shelter if he were just going home with me (or me and my husband). My points are coming from the fact that I have small children. A dog attack or bite can happen in seconds.


IMO if a dog can be stable and calm in a shelter environment then I believe that it can handle pretty much any environment. But like I said that is my opinion. I also happen to know many people have taken in some pretty rough adult dogs in with young children around and have had NO issues what so ever.


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## kevin bradley (Aug 9, 2009)

Agreed. 

I guess what confuses me is that Linsey and some others readily conceded that 99% of the Breeder's out there are unethical. Puppy Mills and backyard breeders pollute the environment...contributing extensively to the overpopulation of Dogs. 

And yet, I hear Breeder's vehemently defended....so you are expending energy to defend the 1% who do it ethically and in a caring way? 

Seriously, guys?...that doesn't even make any sense. If you are admitting that virtually ALL breeder's(and I would contend that 99% pretty much constitutes about as close to ALL as you can get and most staticians would agree)...then WHY are we arguing? 

I've said it and I'll say it again...you can have your 1%. Fine. Help me stop the other 99% and I'll be as happy as can be. You can have your pure breed Russian Super breed, Labrapoodledoodle's and whatever's and I'll keep my Mutts and we can all be happy and stop this disaster that faces us.


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## xxshaelxx (Mar 8, 2010)

You REALLY might want to go back and reread all of the messages, because YOU are the one that said ALL people who breed or do not get their animals fixed or go through breeders are cruel. I went through a breeder, CorgiPaws went through a breeder, others here have gone through breeders. Some of us plan to ETHICALLY breed. Heck, I even entertained the idea, but Amaya doesn't stack right, has a floppy ear, and doesn't have the size. We defend OUR choices against your thoughtless words. We defend OUR ethical breeders (not mine) against your all-encompassing accusations of EVERYONE who breeds, doesn't fix, or buys from breeders.


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## luvMyBRT (Mar 8, 2010)

kevin bradley said:


> You can have your pure breed Russian Super breed, Labrapoodledoodle's and whatever's and I'll keep my Mutts


WOW. Why the need for such sarcasm and rudeness?


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## DaneMama (Jun 27, 2008)

Kevin- the reason for the arguement here was your attitude and blatant, unjustified attacks against a lot of people. Period. You even threw in the disclaimer of "I might get flames for this" in your initial post. To me, I feel that if you plan on making a statement that requires a disclaimer like that, it shouldn't be said. Find another way to express your opinions and ideas about it in a more tactful, respectful way. People will actually listen to what you have to say in that case rather than dismiss your input because of your initial rudeness.

All that being said, I understand what you are saying, but I don't agree with you 100%. I see that you have good thoughts and ideas on this subject and that is what matters.

What we need to do is rally and talk to our lawmakers and get the pet rights movement. Get more regulation on breeding and more education our there to pet owners.


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## Unosmom (May 3, 2009)

Kevin- I used to think that way for quite a while and I'm still pretty defensive regarding the whole topic, on one hand I would like to see some of the breeds preserved, but where do you draw the line when it comes to the ammount of breeders. Even if someone choses to breed and they have all qualifications in order, should they?

I just feel like there are far more noble professions out there then contributing to existing pet overpopulation problem. So from a personal perspetctive, no, I dont get why anyone would chose to do it. 
If there was a way to set up guidelines to control the ammout of ethical breeders, I would be all for it. (and of course ban puppy mills and BYB's)


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## RCTRIPLEFRESH5 (Feb 11, 2010)

Unosmom said:


> Kevin- I used to think that way for quite a while and I'm still pretty defensive regarding the whole topic, on one hand I would like to see some of the breeds preserved, but where do you draw the line when it comes to the ammount of breeders. Even if someone choses to breed and they have all qualifications in order, should they?
> 
> I just feel like there are far more noble professions out there then contributing to existing pet overpopulation problem. So from a personal perspetctive, no, I dont get why anyone would chose to do it.
> If there was a way to set up guidelines to control the ammout of ethical breeders, I would be all for it. (and of course ban puppy mills and BYB's)


if we ban breeders, then we will increase the percentage of genetic defects in current breeds. what we need to do is ban puppy mills, and increase breeders. by breeders i mean ethical breeders of course id hate to see them dissapear also.


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## rannmiller (Jun 27, 2008)

saraj2878 said:


> WOW. Why the need for such sarcasm and rudeness?


the funny thing is, labradoodles are mutts so I'm not sure why he's hating on them too :wink:


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## kevin bradley (Aug 9, 2009)

Unosmom said:


> Kevin- I used to think that way for quite a while and I'm still pretty defensive regarding the whole topic, on one hand I would like to see some of the breeds preserved, but where do you draw the line when it comes to the ammount of breeders. Even if someone choses to breed and they have all qualifications in order, should they?
> 
> I just feel like there are far more noble professions out there then contributing to existing pet overpopulation problem. So from a personal perspetctive, no, I dont get why anyone would chose to do it.
> If there was a way to set up guidelines to control the ammout of ethical breeders, I would be all for it. (and of course ban puppy mills and BYB's)



Said in a far more poetic and diplomatic way than I probably did. 

In my view, the issue is so very horrific and abominable that I feels it calls for transformational viewpoints. I won't apologize for my belief that breeding more and more dogs into this world is morally and ethically wrong. As I said, we will have to disagree on the subject.


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## wags (Jan 31, 2009)

rannmiller said:


> the funny thing is, labradoodles are mutts so I'm not sure why he's hating on them too :wink:


Labardoodles and other dogs such as goldendoodles, puggles, schnnodles, cockapoo, yorkipoo, are called designer dogs, hybrid dogs and some folk say mutts. They are a cross between two purebred dogs of two breeds. Like the labraddodle is Labrador and poodle. Designer dogs are supposedly bred by breeders who are trying to get the perfect dog like there non shedding ,hypo allergenic, getting the kinks out of the pure bred dogs, and it seems to me its gotten out of control with the breeders breeding these type of pooches!
Of course their title DESIGNER DOG is controversial.
But I know a true mutt is a cross mix of any type of dogs combined, usually they are unknown what they are mixed with and it becomes a guessing game for people to try and guess the breed!
People agree and disagree on this subject of whether they are mutts or hybrids or Designer dogs! Ha~ Maybe someone just mixed up two breeds by mistake and came up with a fancy name for selling tactics, this may be it haha! But what a marketing technique~ it worked !
They are now really popular! I do have to admit I like they way some of the pups look though very cute! Gee I have one haha! My ori~pei is 1/2 shar~pei and 1/2 pug! Whether he's called designer, hybrid or mutt He's unique and gee spoiled rotten, well that goes for the other three who are pure bred that we have haha!


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## rannmiller (Jun 27, 2008)

well if we want to get into the semantics of it the definition of a mutt is a mongrel dog. A mongrel is: An animal or a plant resulting from various interbreedings, especially a dog of *mixed* or undetermined breed.

By definition, "hybrid" or "designer" breeds are mongrels/mutts. So either all mixed breed dogs are mutts or they're "designer" or "hybrid." Whether intentional or not. I call Milo a purebred mutt because people look at him and go "what the heck is that?" then name what they see. As far as I can guess he's a corgi/heeler/dachshund mix. It's easier to say purebred mutt and it confuses people who actually fall for it :smile:


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## xxshaelxx (Mar 8, 2010)

Unosmom said:


> I just feel like there are far more noble professions out there then contributing to existing pet overpopulation problem. So from a personal perspetctive, no, I dont get why anyone would chose to do it.


Breeding is not a profession if done in an ethical manner. People spend THOUSANDS of dollars on these dogs that they breed, if not tens of thousands of dollars, and the so-called "profit" they make off of puppies is NOTHING compared to that. Not to mention the fact that properly taking care of the puppies is going to cost almost as much as they are selling them for. Yeah, BYBs can make a couple hundred bucks off their dogs if they sell them at six weeks old (which most do), don't do a vet check, don't get vaccines, don't get dew claws removed, and don't do all of the should-be-necessary ultrasounds, vitamins, etc. for the pregnant bitch, then there's the health tests done basically yearly after the age of two. Not only that, but if there's an emergency, such as needing to take the dog to the vet for a C-section, that can cost into the thousands. There are other things that breeders do for their pups that I can't remember, but it's not cheap for them, and generally they're not making ANY profit off of them, considering how much they put into the bitch, AND the fact that they most likely paid a stud fee, AND the fact that they probably aren't getting huge litters like ten puppies, they're going to keep one for themselves and possibly give one as the stud fee to the person who owns the stud. In other words, most of these "ethical" breeders have jobs, actual jobs, where they're making money to support their hobby of preserving the original breeds as they are supposed to be.



> If there was a way to set up guidelines to control the ammout of ethical breeders, I would be all for it. (and of course ban puppy mills and BYB's)


There are ways to set up guidelines to control the amount of ethical breeders. Actually, most places have them. People are breaking the law every day when they breed their animals.

Here are the laws I found for Nevada even:

7.40.110 Breeders--Fees--Restrictions.

Any person who, for pay or other compensation, causes the breeding of a male or female dog or cat or makes a dog or cat available for breeding purposes, or any person who sells or offers for sale any dog or cat shall pay an annual permit/inspection fee of fifty dollars for the privilege of engaging in such activity. However, any person who possesses a valid City permit to operate a dog kennel, cat kennel or pet shop and has paid the annual permit fee therefor shall receive a credit in the amount of the fee paid but in no event shall the amount of credit exceed the amount of tax hereunder.

(A) Each person subject to the provisions of this Section shall:

(1) Not allow the whelping of more than two litters per each female dog or cat in an eighteen-month period;

(2) Not cause the whelping of more than two litters in the permit holder’s or any other person’s domestic household in an eighteen-month period. Notwithstanding this provision, however, the Animal Control Center is hereby authorized, upon application of a permit, to allow on a one-time basis the whelping of up to a total of three dog or cat litters in a domestic household in an eighteen-month period where the permit holder establishes within regulations promulgated by the Animal Regulation Officer that such breeding is required to protect the health of the animal. In the event a permit holder is forced to destroy a litter of dogs or cats, the Animal Regulation Officer may authorize the whelping of one additional litter of dogs or cats within the same year by the permit holder;

(3) Not have more than six adult dogs or cats over the age of one year and no more than ten dogs or cats over the age of three months;

(4) Cause all dogs and cats prior to their sale to be immunized against common disease; in the case of dogs, against distemper, DHLD, and in the case of cats, against panleukopenia. The sale of a dog or cat shall include a signed statement from the seller attesting to the seller’s knowledge of the animal’s health. Such statement shall include the animal’s immunization history;

(5) Not sell any dog or cat under the age of seven weeks;

(6) Furnish the Animal Control Center with the animal breeder’s permit number and the name, address, and telephone number of the buyer or new owner of any dog or cat sold or transferred within five days after the date of such sale or transfer.

(B) The Animal Control Center shall furnish the permit holder with printed information regarding the pet care and control services of the City which shall be provided by the seller to the purchaser of any dog or cat.

(C) Persons subject to this Section shall not publish or advertise the sale of any dog or cat unless said publication or advertisement is accompanied by the seller’s breeder’s permit number.

(D) Each permit issued hereunder shall expire one year from the date of issuance. However, it may be renewed at any time up to and including the last day of the calendar month in which it is due to expire.

(E) The payment of this permit fee shall not exempt the permit holder from compliance with any other applicable provision of the City of Las Vegas Municipal Codes.

(Ord. 3618 § 180, 1991)


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## CorgiPaws (Mar 31, 2009)

kevin bradley said:


> And yet, I hear Breeder's vehemently defended....so you are expending energy to defend the 1% who do it ethically and in a caring way?
> 
> Seriously, guys?...that doesn't even make any sense.


...seriously? Are you kidding, you can't possibly be THAT wrapped up in yourself, can you?
WHY does that 1% or 10% or however small of a percent they make up deserve to be grouped with the ones that are terrible? WHY should their efforts go unrecognized? WHY should their dedication and love of their breed be overlooked? Because the guy next to them does it wrong??? YES, I am expending energy to defent that percent because they DESERVE to be defended when ignorant people try to group them in with puppy mills and BYB's. And because I FULLY INTEND TO BE PART OF THAT FIGURE. 





kevin bradley said:


> If you are admitting that virtually ALL breeder's(and I would contend that 99% pretty much constitutes about as close to ALL as you can get and most staticians would agree)...then WHY are we arguing?


the 99% was just a figure i threw out there out of nowhere, so don't get so hung up on it. My point was I recognize there are A LOT more bad breeders than good. 



kevin bradley said:


> )...then WHY are we arguing?


Because of your blatent attacks on purebred dogs, which I have three of, and your claims that I am a cruel individual based on where I got my dogs, from caring, ethical breeders. Did you seem to miss that part? It was in your posts full of self righteous ignorant claims. 



kevin bradley said:


> I've said it and I'll say it again...you can have your 1%. Fine. Help me stop the other 99% and I'll be as happy as can be.


First ignorant people need to stop grouping that small percent of good breeders with the awful ones, and stop telling people they're wasting their efforts in defending those who do it right. 



kevin bradley said:


> You can have your pure breed Russian Super breed, Labrapoodledoodle's and whatever's and I'll keep my Mutts and we can all be happy and stop this disaster that faces us.


Some people should really just think before they post. Doodles aren't by any stretch of the imagination a purebred dog. Lets keep in mind many of us have BOTH purebreds and rescue mutts. I will say that with going to a breeder who breeds to standard you have a MUCH better idea of what you're getting yourself into. With a mutt, you haven't the slightest idea. 


Not to mention that the mutts you so want to defend are the *PRODUCT* of irresponsible breeding and bad owners. I'm glad you think every home should have one.
I'd rather support an ethical breeder.


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## kevin bradley (Aug 9, 2009)

Yeah, I'm wrapped up in myself, Linsey. 

yep, that's it. Wrapped up so much in myself that I spend my days defending the mutts, the unwanted dogs of our world...yep, you caught me. I have a real love of myself....yep, that's what most people are made of who surround themselves with shelter Dogs. You pegged all of us.

THEIR LOVE of THEIR breed. You nailed it right there. F the world...forget about helping the situation...why should WE tread on their rights to breed away? 

one thing you should consider...I'M wrapped up in MYSELF? Funny, everything you defend is FOR THE BREEDER's....and does zero to address the horrors of the millions of dogs euthanized every year. 

Take pride in your defense of breeder's though. They are lucky to have you. 

Don't bother replying.


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## CorgiPaws (Mar 31, 2009)

kevin bradley said:


> Yeah, I'm wrapped up in myself, Linsey.
> 
> yep, that's it. Wrapped up so much in myself that I spend my days defending the mutts, the unwanted dogs of our world...yep, you caught me. I have a real love of myself....yep, that's what most people are made of who surround themselves with shelter Dogs. You pegged all of us.


I was moreso referring to the fact that you've recognized that not ALL breeders are terrible, yet you think it's pointless to defend those who are doing it right. THAT makes no sense. It's like you take your stance against ALL breeders, and don't care at all about the good ones. 

The sarcasm is unnecessary and unwanted. One of my dogs is a mutt. I took him in, I put over fourty pounds on him to get him at a healthy weight. I rehabilitated him and got him to be a fit member of society. 
I volunteer my times and efforts just like you do. 




kevin bradley said:


> THEIR LOVE of THEIR breed. You nailed it right there. F the world...forget about helping the situation...why should WE tread on their rights to breed away?


Where does the future of dogs lie if we end the breeding of purebred dogs? What about working dogs, bred with a purpose? I still stick with my original stance that ETHICAL breeders aren't impacting the problem at hand nearly what you seem to think. Someone who goes through the extensive process of obtaining such a dog is far less likely to dump it.
I wish I could find the statistic on how many shelter dogs wind up in shelters more than once. I think it was somewhere in the 60% range. I can't find it, though. 
There is NOTHING wrong with being passionate about a certain breed and wanting to preserve the integrity of that breed. WITHOUT ethical breeders, breeds would disappear, and all that would be left is mutts. Mixed breeds. Not bred for any specific purpose or temperment. Not bred to any kind of standard. Not health tested. Not predictable. 




kevin bradley said:


> one thing you should consider...I'M wrapped up in MYSELF? Funny, everything you defend is FOR THE BREEDER's....and does zero to address the horrors of the millions of dogs euthanized every year.


Please stop implying that you're the only person that cares about shelter animals. We ALL do. We're ALL dog lovers, or we would not be on this forum.
MOST ethical breeders are JUST as involved with rescue work as they are breeding. 
I don't think you'll find a single person on this forum who does not support rescuing. SO please STOP acting like you're the only one with a noble cause.


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## DaneMama (Jun 27, 2008)

I guess about 80-90% of the people out there would considered cruel in the eyes of someone like Kevin, at least the majority of people here he thinks are cruel considering there are a lot of pure bred dog owners and got our dogs from a breeder. Just seems like a really negative way to think...at least to me!

Personally I think people who abuse, neglect and discard their pets (for unjustified reasons) are cruel. These are the people who should be blamed, which can include puppy mills, BYBs, or the common pet owner. This is a more constructive way to think IMO.


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## kevin bradley (Aug 9, 2009)

we can sit back, never DIRECTLY harm anything in this world and believe we didn't do anything wrong. 

Or we can become AWARE of how many things we do/decisions we make DO indirectly impact this world. 

Pick. You could go get 1000 breeder created Dogs, love them, make a great home for them...certainly never directly treat them in a bad way....turning your back on the alternative of adopting 1000 rescue dogs heading for the gas chamber. 

But did you do the RIGHT thing? I guess most here would think you did the right thing.


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## Ania's Mommy (Feb 8, 2009)

Well, I, for one, am grateful for both philosophies. We NEED people like CorgiPaws to ethically preserve breeds and keep them healthy and as they were supposed to be. We also NEED people like Kevin to help take in wonderful pets that are left with no other options.

You two are on opposite ends of the spectrum. And unfortunately, it's the middle of the road "breeders" that are screwing things up.

You BOTH passionately agree in your stance, and (the important part) follow through on your beliefs. And the thing is, the world needs both of you.

So, thank you! 

Richelle


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## mstngchic2012 (Jan 30, 2010)

kevin, you are so totally ignorant! People here are aware of the issue with unwanted dogs. Just because they want a purebred dog that has a known history and most likely bred for a specific purpose give you NO right to sit here and bash them.

Yes, it is terrible that so many unwanted dogs are put to death every year but these dogs are a result of poor decisions! They are more than likely NOT the result of ETHICAL breeders!

I will say that I rescused my dog from a bad situation -- 6 months old and was going to be put to sleep. But when I get another dog it will be from a breeder and I will be working my dog AND will plan on breeding my dog FOR THE PURPOSE OF BETTERING THE BREED AND PRESERVING IT!!! So I guess I will be lumped in the same category.


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## CorgiPaws (Mar 31, 2009)

kevin bradley said:


> we can sit back, never DIRECTLY harm anything in this world and believe we didn't do anything wrong.
> 
> Or we can become AWARE of how many things we do/decisions we make DO indirectly impact this world.


Alright. THis is just becoming silly. Now because I got my dogs from a breeder I'm not helping anything?
The hours volunteering don't count?
The transpoting pets to their new homes don't count?
The rehabilitation of a GSD mix doesn't count?

I can't imagine living with such a negative view of the world. You have such a narrow minded way of thinking about the whole situation. "If this then that" If you get your dog from a breeder then you're cruel. If you don't adopt from the shelter then you're the problem. There IS the grey area, you know. 



kevin bradley said:


> Pick.


Right or wrong does not equal shelter or breeder. I don't have to pick. I can get my dogs from ethical breeders AND help the pet overpopulation issue. Crazy, I know.



kevin bradley said:


> But did you do the RIGHT thing? I guess most here would think you did the right thing.


Every dog that I have gotten in my adult life has been the right choice for me. And with EACH one I attempted rescue first. 
By the way, the Boxer rescue in my area will not place a female in a home that has another female, and I can not bring an adult male in with Champ, so that's not even an option for me, and it's not MY fault.


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## kevin bradley (Aug 9, 2009)

CorgiPaws said:


> Alright. THis is just becoming silly. Now because I got my dogs from a breeder I'm not helping anything?
> The hours volunteering don't count?
> The transpoting pets to their new homes don't count?
> The rehabilitation of a GSD mix doesn't count?


Linsey, that is way off track. 

You seriously think that I don't admire the hours you volunteer with rescue groups?...or the other work you do to place unwanted animals?

My life has been devoted to rescues...the most unwanted dogs in the world. EACH of my 3 Dogs would have been put down and 2/3 were within days of end of life. 

I guess I don't understand how you can't see at least SOME of what I'm saying. HAD I went to a Breeder for my 3 Dogs...and I can assure you that I couldn't have much more than 3 dogs as I live in an 800 sq. foot home that is pretty maxxed out right now...HAD I went to a Breeder, these 3 dogs would have certainly been killed. Now would I be RESPONSIBLE for their death? Most would say no. I looked at it differently.

Good Breeder, Bad Breeder...wouldn't have matterred....MY DOGS WOULD BE DEAD!

You will probably accuse me of being self righteous of this post...it's not my intention. I would like to do more. I'd like to have 100 rescue Dogs but the practicalities of life prevent it. I'm only saying this to illustrate the fact that going to a breeder would have CERTAINLY had an impact on MY shelter Dogs.


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## luvMyBRT (Mar 8, 2010)

kevin bradley said:


> Yeah, I'm wrapped up in myself, Linsey.
> 
> yep, that's it. Wrapped up so much in myself that I spend my days defending the mutts, the unwanted dogs of our world...yep, you caught me. I have a real love of myself....yep, that's what most people are made of who surround themselves with shelter Dogs. You pegged all of us.
> 
> ...


Once again: WOW. 
Do you even actually READ the posts that we are posting??????? We are NOT DEFENDING THE BREEDERS! See??? Once again you are lumping ALL breeders together. What we ARE defending is: THE ETHICAL BREEDERS! And this DOES address the problem of overpopulation! We are NOT supporting the puppymills by purchasing a puppy from a pet store!!!!! We are NOT supporting the backyard breeders by purchasing one of their dogs. We are not letting our random dogs breed. We HAVE our dogs spayed and neutered.

Have you thought of the fact that it is WHERE YOUR MUTTS CAME FROM THAT IS THE REAL PROBLEM!

I had told myself that I was not going to get upset and post again, but you left me no choice with your, once again, ignorant comments. I too agree that yes, we need people like you that are passionate about helping the shelter dogs and we also need people like us who are passionate about ethical breeders.

WHY CAN'T PEOPLE WHO ARE PASSIONATE ABOUT ETHICAL BREEDERS ALSO BE PASSIONATE ABOUT HELPING SHELTER DOGS????????? I AM!!!!!!

*sheesh*


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## xxshaelxx (Mar 8, 2010)

kevin bradley said:


> we can sit back, never DIRECTLY harm anything in this world and believe we didn't do anything wrong.
> 
> Or we can become AWARE of how many things we do/decisions we make DO indirectly impact this world.
> 
> ...


EXCUSE ME?! I guess by you saying that means that all of us here who have purebred dogs did the wrong thing. Maybe I should have just committed suicide, rather than doing something selfish for myself and getting what I wanted? Maybe I should have gone to the Humane Society and adopted a dog that was said to be good with cats and brought it home to find out that it's great with cats that are NICE to it, but the second a cat (unused to contact with other dogs) scratches it in the nose, it attacks and KILLS my cat. Or maybe I should have got a six week old puppy from the humane society because some jack a55 dumped them on their doorstep so as to get a dog that could grow up with my cats, only to find out it has worms, parvo, temperament issues from being weaned from its litter far too early and that it has SEVERE issues with biting...which includes the cats, because the poor thing just doesn't know anything about bite inhibition.

Any of those UNPREDICTABLE situations would have been the absolute BEST route to take, because I'd be "saving" a dog set for death row just to appease your selfish and ignorant beliefs.



CorgiPaws said:


> Where does the future of dogs lie if we end the breeding of purebred dogs? What about working dogs, bred with a purpose? I still stick with my original stance that ETHICAL breeders aren't impacting the problem at hand nearly what you seem to think. Someone who goes through the extensive process of obtaining such a dog is far less likely to dump it.
> I wish I could find the statistic on how many shelter dogs wind up in shelters more than once. I think it was somewhere in the 60% range. I can't find it, though.
> There is NOTHING wrong with being passionate about a certain breed and wanting to preserve the integrity of that breed. WITHOUT ethical breeders, breeds would disappear, and all that would be left is mutts. Mixed breeds. Not bred for any specific purpose or temperment. Not bred to any kind of standard. Not health tested. Not predictable.


I have to TOTALLY agree with Corgi here. If we end the breeding of purebred dogs by ethical breeders who care about preserving the health and ideals behind the breed, then we'll be left with ONLY mutts, mutts that don't do the job quite as right, mutts that have all kinds of health defects of breeds combined. In my opinion, more people with mutts are the problem, because they just don't care as much about these kinds of things. To MANY of them, it's just a dog. That is not to say that it is all of them, but many.

And at least I know that if my dog contracts cataracts or gets genetic hip dysplasia, I'm guaranteed my money back or another dog. At least I know that if my dog dies before its eighth birthday, I'm guaranteed my money back or another dog. At least I know that if something happens, my dog will go back to the breeder and be found an equally decent home and will never end up in a shelter.

And without ethical breeding, what would happen to dogs like the bloodhound? Bloodhounds are essential in jobs such as search and rescue, or bomb squads for seeking out bombs, or drug detectors.

So yes, we stand up to protect these people who breed ethically, because you forget, it was YOU who said that ANYONE who breeds is cruel. No, it is those who breed for the purpose of a hobby, for the purpose of making money, or for the purpose of wanting another dog in your dog's lines are cruel. People who allow their dogs to accidentally breeds are cruel. People who do not care about the welfare of animals are cruel.

When you opened your mouth and said that all people who breed or do not fix their animals are cruel, you opened your mouth up against many of us. So yes, we do feel the need to defend OURSELVES. We do feel the need to defend OUR PRACTICES. We do feel the need to defend the ETHICAL breeders, who are NOT the problem. You may have only needlessly attacked about 1% of the dog breeding/not fixing their animals community, but think about it... For the 3-4 million dogs being euthanized yearly, there are probably three times as many people who own them and do not give them up. That is 9-12 million people combined. That is 90,000-120,000 people that you are attacking for ethical breeders. Considering they turn out MAYBE five puppies a year (as that is generally NORMAL with ethical breeders), and that ALL of those puppies will NEVER go to a pound due to the fact that they will ALWAYS take their dogs back, that is 450,000-600,000 people who have received dogs from ethical breeders that you are attacking, including some of us.


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## DaneMama (Jun 27, 2008)

It's a good thing that I have made the right choice each and every single time we have gotten a dog, regardless of where or what kind of dog. You see Kevin, there are mutiple decisions that I could make on where to get my next dog, and they would all be the right choice for me. If it were up to someone else deciding what is right for me...I wouldn't end up with the right dog. Which is one of the reasons why dogs end up in shelters. We have 6 animals in our permanent care, they are family or the kids. We would take more if we had the space (and we live in a MUCH smaller house than you with twice the amount of animals...so maybe you should consider getting another one, or better yet...foster a dog or two). We rescued some and got some from breeders, they are all wonderful and don't regret any decision I have made.

We actually foster dogs that were taken off of death row and find them good homes. I personally think that while adopting a dog is a noble thing to do, it takes a lot more courage and perseverence to foster dogs and then say goodbye when they find a new home. Finding good foster homes is far harder than finding a good adoptive family. The idea of fostering is not ideal to a lot of people, they don't want to have to say goodbye, but that is the best part for me (not seeing them go of course), but knowing that they have found their new family. If more people were open to the idea of fostering dogs there wouldn't be quite as many facing death in shelters. A lot of dogs on death row are there for aggression, like our last foster, but animal shelters just don't have the time or energy into rehabing those types of dogs (who are probably aggressive because they're scared or starving).


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## xxshaelxx (Mar 8, 2010)

danemama08 said:


> It's a good thing that I have made the right choice each and every single time we have gotten a dog, regardless of where or what kind of dog. You see Kevin, there are mutiple decisions that I could make on where to get my next dog, and they would all be the right choice for me. If it were up to someone else deciding what is right for me...I wouldn't end up with the right dog. Which is one of the reasons why dogs end up in shelters. We have 6 animals in our permanent care, they are family or the kids. We would take more if we had the space (and we live in a MUCH smaller house than you with twice the amount of animals...so maybe you should consider getting another one, or better yet...foster a dog or two). We rescued some and got some from breeders, they are all wonderful and don't regret any decision I have made.
> 
> We actually foster dogs that were taken off of death row and find them good homes. I personally think that while adopting a dog is a noble thing to do, it takes a lot more courage and perseverence to foster dogs and then say goodbye when they find a new home. Finding good foster homes is far harder than finding a good adoptive family. The idea of fostering is not ideal to a lot of people, they don't want to have to say goodbye, but that is the best part for me (not seeing them go of course), but knowing that they have found their new family. If more people were open to the idea of fostering dogs there wouldn't be quite as many facing death in shelters. A lot of dogs on death row are there for aggression, like our last foster, but animal shelters just don't have the time or energy into rehabing those types of dogs (who are probably aggressive because their scared or starving).


THANK YOU! THANK YOU! THANK YOU! THANK YOU! THANK YOU! THANK YOU! THANK YOU! THANK YOU! THANK YOU! THANK YOU! THANK YOU! THANK YOU! THANK YOU! THANK YOU! THANK YOU! THANK YOU! THANK YOU! THANK YOU! THANK YOU! THANK YOU! THANK YOU! THANK YOU! THANK YOU! THANK YOU! THANK YOU! THANK YOU! THANK YOU! THANK YOU! THANK YOU! THANK YOU! THANK YOU! THANK YOU! THANK YOU! THANK YOU! THANK YOU! THANK YOU! THANK YOU! THANK YOU! THANK YOU! THANK YOU! THANK YOU! THANK YOU! THANK YOU! THANK YOU! THANK YOU! THANK YOU! THANK YOU! THANK YOU! THANK YOU! THANK YOU! THANK YOU! THANK YOU! THANK YOU! THANK YOU! THANK YOU! THANK YOU! THANK YOU! THANK YOU! THANK YOU! THANK YOU! THANK YOU! THANK YOU! THANK YOU! THANK YOU! THANK YOU! THANK YOU! THANK YOU! THANK YOU! THANK YOU! THANK YOU! THANK YOU! THANK YOU! THANK YOU! THANK YOU! THANK YOU! THANK YOU! 

Because I didn't think that one thank you was enough for you post. XD


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## CorgiPaws (Mar 31, 2009)

kevin bradley said:


> Linsey, that is way off track.
> 
> You seriously think that I don't admire the hours you volunteer with rescue groups?...or the other work you do to place unwanted animals?


I guess my feathers are just still ruffled by your "anyone who buys their dog from a breeder is cruel. period" because it discredits any other factor, like rescue work and volunteering, that may come into play. 



kevin bradley said:


> You will probably accuse me of being self righteous of this post...it's not my intention.


I appreciate your passion SO much. I LOVE that people like you are willing to go to any length to save these dogs. It is so needed, and the issue at hand is a true tragedy that needs to be addressed, and fixed. Unfortunately, most pet owners out there are so uneducated on breeding, rescue, etc. They have it in their minds that "USDA approved" must mean the breeder is great! (A trick pet shops thrive on) They think that being "papered" is some kind of health and conformation guarantee. SO really, the root of the issue is uneducated pet owners being sucked in by the tricks of BYB's and pet shops. 
BYB's a puppy mills are a soft subect for me, as I'm sure it is for all of us. It's insane they even get away with it in this day and age. It amazes me that there are people unaware of the horrors that lie behind that cute fluffy face in the pet shop window. 

I, too, would love to see the abuse and neglect to these animals end. I don't think that going after the small percent of great breeders is going to do anything about it, but rather lets educate the public on the lack of compassion of the BYB looking to make a buck... about the cramped sadness of a puppy mill where their pet shop puppy came from. THAT is where real progress will be made. I don't think that many pet owners want to support such cruelty, rather thy just don't comprehend the magnitude of it. These industries are not stupid. They are not unaware of the bad publicity shining on them. 


I worked at a pet shop for a grand total of three days back in high school. My first day of training was about cleaning. My second day of training was about puppy sales paperwork, contracts, and commissions. My THIRD day of training, was about lying. We were taught how to convince people these puppies came from great USDA approved breeders. That they had great bloodlines. Oh, and don't forget those "papers" they came with. We were taught how to convince someone looking at a purebred why purebreds were better, and how to convince someone looking at a designer breed why those were better. We were taught how to price quote the puppies $100 more than the sales price, so we could offer them $100 off if they bought that day, and still the store kept their money, and the buyer thought they got a good deal. Now you and I both know the tactics of pet shops, but the terrifying reality is, all these tricks of the trade actually WORK on the average buyer. I quit after that day. I was pretty sure it was a bad idea to work there to begin with, but I was 16, loved animals, and really needed the money and a friend got me the job. THESE are the operations that need to be exposed and put to a hault. Not the few reputable breeders out there.

ETA: This pet shop bought their puppies from the "USDA approved breeders" for no more than $200 per puppy, but many of them in the $65- $125 range, and were sold for no less than $800 but as much as $2500 for breeds like english bulldogs and weims.


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## kevin bradley (Aug 9, 2009)

I will concede again that my comment that "anyone who goes to a breeder is cruel" was out of line. 

It was intended to be more of a reflective statement that it would be my preference to see MOST people opt for shelter Dogs.


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## wags (Jan 31, 2009)

rannmiller said:


> well if we want to get into the semantics of it the definition of a mutt is a mongrel dog. A mongrel is: An animal or a plant resulting from various interbreedings, especially a dog of *mixed* or undetermined breed.
> 
> By definition, "hybrid" or "designer" breeds are mongrels/mutts. So either all mixed breed dogs are mutts or they're "designer" or "hybrid." Whether intentional or not. I call Milo a purebred mutt because people look at him and go "what the heck is that?" then name what they see. As far as I can guess he's a corgi/heeler/dachshund mix. It's easier to say purebred mutt and it confuses people who actually fall for it :smile:


Mongrel is a good term also and very well true to the mixed breed designer breed hybrid breed!! :wink: But the term Mongrel just makes me think of a poor old junk yard dog guarding an old used scrap car lot! Sad! Like a feral dog who reverts to its wild state~ scary! I just like designer it has a nice ring to it versus mongrel! But purebred mutts is good! Too bad though puppy mills and pet shops are taking such advantage of this. Opportunity to sell these breeds at ridiculous prices!:frown:
I really like a mixed breed due to their genetic variations in them! They have such different looks and personalities than some dogs! They do seem at times bit healthier but then again I have pure bred ones who are just as hearty!
And with a mix bred dog,you get the variety of the different breeds ~love that effect! 
Of course all dogs are great no matter what~ mixed or pure bred! 
Heck when I was a kid that is what we always had mutts~ mongrels~ whatever they were mixed with many, many breeds of dogs. I actually don't think they were identifiable at all! Healthy and adorable! :smile:


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