# Trifexis is Dangerous!



## susan cotton

Hello to Alll Pet Lovers.
I joined this site to inform other pet owners of recent severe problems my little dog had with Trifexis. As some of you may know, Sentinel was taken off the market this year due to shortages. I have a Maltipoo who is 2 years old. She has been perfectly healthy since birth. We tried her on Trifexis. First dose we noticed that she was having intermittent vomiting. At first, we thought it might be something she had eaten. She is always kept indoors except to go outside for toileting and so we could not imagine her eating something accidentially. Anyway, the second dose of Trifexis caused vomiting, diarrhea, lethargy and then she had a grand mal seizure. She has been at the vet this week getting IV fluids in an effort to wash out what the vet called "toxins." She is now in liver failure. When I asked my vet whether or not he thought the medication made her sick, he said he had no way of knowing for sure. He DID instruct us to bring the medication back and gave us a refund for the remaining doses we had. However, this does not help my little dog.....it is little and late... I cannot begin to express how sad I feel about this. I wish I would have waited until more information was available and not expose my little dog to this medication. So, everyone take some good advice - DO NOT GIVE YOUR DOG TRIFEXIS. It could be potentially life threatening.


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## Nana52

I'm so very sorry to hear about your little girl. I just don't give my dogs any "chemicals" anymore; you never know what kind of problem they might cause, either short or long term. You and your girl will be in my thoughts, and I sincerely hope she will come through this ordeal okay.


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## InkedMarie

I'm sorry about your dog. I prefer to give my dogs their heartworm pill and go natural for fleas/ticks. Even their heartworm is only given every 40-45 days, not monthly. I hope your dog will recover.


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## Herzo

I'm so sorry about your dog. I don't even know what trifexis is. Is it a flea medication?

I hope your dog come through this.


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## naturalfeddogs

It's a heartworm prevention. Brand new on the market too. As far as giving it, I don't give anything chemical anymore, topical or otherwise.


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## naturalfeddogs

Yea, it' s a combo. Regardless, it's chemicals either way.


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## DaneMama

My thoughts and healing vibes are headed her way. Keep us posted on how she does....


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## Panchovilla

Sorry your dog is sick, but your vet has no way of knowing for sure if the medication made her sick, but you know for sure. So sure you post this to scare people out of giving their dog heartworm prevention. Why do you go to a vet if you know more than he?


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## DaneMama

Panchovilla said:


> Sorry your dog is sick, but your vet has no way of knowing for sure if the medication made her sick, but you know for sure. So sure you post this to scare people out of giving their dog heartworm prevention. Why do you go to a vet if you know more than he?


I don't see this post as a "scare" against giving all heartworm medication....just this particular brand, Triflexis. 

It is true that the community here is more in tune with natural and holistic types of veterinary care and treatments. That we tend to stay away from chemicals and drugs that can (and do) cause disease. There are risks of giving any RX drug...its just the way things are. Did Triflexis make this dog sick? No one will ever know 100%, without a shadow of doubt, absolutely, positively...that this drug caused the disease. There is no diagnostic test to say for sure or not with any sick animal. You can have lab work done to rule out things, x-ray, ultrasound, etc. But there is not for sure way to know one way or another. So LEGALLY any vet can't say "oh yes, that medication for sure made that dog sick" because that could be turned around on them in court of law. So....they can say "well the symptoms lead us to believe it could be caused by the drug or it could be something else" to save face as well as cover their butts. 

I am a vet tech and we see these things all the time and very rarely do things happen coincidentally like that. The dog was perfectly healthy, no problems whatsoever. BOOM...dog is sick after first dose of Triflexis. Coincidence? Maybe, the dog could have gotten something in the yard. Maybe not....considering symptoms progressively got worse as the dog was dosed. Its hard to overlook the link here. 

And at this point it doesn't really matter. All that matters is the member's poor dog being sick and us providing a good, supportive group to help them through this tragedy. This member also has the right to share her experiences and opinions here on DFC :thumb:


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## Panchovilla

This is most definitely an attempt to scare. All drugs have potential side effects, and true there is probably no way to know for certain without heavy diagnostics whether this was truly a drug reaction or not. As far as reactions to Heartworm preventives go, they are rare, but do happen. However drugs are the only proven way to prevent Heartworm disease, which we know (some firsthand) to be fatal quite often. If you care about keeping your dog healthy, please keep it on prevention (ie using a drug). It is the commenters that say "I don't use chemicals" that scare me. I hope they don't live next door, as they could be endangering MY dog by serving as a reservoir of infection.


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## Chocx2

I'm so sorry about your little one, I hope she recovers, prayers your way!!

I myself have stopped all the flee and tick stuff, my dog that was sick was very sensitive when I would apply the medication to her she would charge the pool and dive in. And for days she wouldn't be herself. I noticed this with all my dogs.

Its hard to trust big companies anymore.


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## MollyWoppy

I'm so very sorry to hear about your little girl as well. Best of luck to you and her, I hope she can overcome her illness. Please let us know how she gets on. Thinking of you.


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## DaneMama

Panchovilla said:


> This is most definitely an attempt to scare. All drugs have potential side effects, and true there is probably no way to know for certain without heavy diagnostics whether this was truly a drug reaction or not. As far as reactions to Heartworm preventives go, they are rare, but do happen. However drugs are the only proven way to prevent Heartworm disease, which we know (some firsthand) to be fatal quite often. If you care about keeping your dog healthy, please keep it on prevention (ie using a drug).


The reaction gained by the observer is subjective. While you see the original post as a scare, biased, unuseful, etc....others may see it as informative, insightful, useful, and moving. That's be beauty of subjective. You take it for what it's worth. '

Your experiences and knowledge lead you to question a post like this while others place great emphasis on it as another's firsthand experience. 

Same could be said for a post made on holistic methods for preventing heartworm disease. 

It's all subjective. Which is why I always recommend that people do their own research, rehtoric and reading to base their own opinions. If someone else based their sole opinion on this ONE firsthand experience.....that's their business. 



> It is the commenters that say "I don't use chemicals" that scare me. I hope they don't live next door, as they could be endangering MY dog by serving as a reservoir of infection.


If you were living next door to someone who uses holistic medicine but you yourself were 100% confident in "drugs" to protect your dog from diseases....why the doubt in their effectiveness to protect your dog? If these neighbor dogs were truly a reservoir for infection, wouldn't these "drugs" you give effectively elimitate the threat? To me...if you were 100% confident in their effectiveness at preventing disease, the thought of what your neighbor does with their dogs is a moot one because it wouldn't matter one way or another. 

Because isn't that the point of these "drugs"? To be effective at preventing disease that they're created for? 

But at what cost? The cost of the life of 1 in 100 dogs? Or 1 in 1000? 

What if the dog who has a bad reaction to the drug is YOUR dog? What if there is a natural way with NO drug interaction to prevent these diseases?


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## Georgiapeach

I hope your girl is improving. My thoughts and prayers are with you. I've read recently on other forums about problems with Trifexis and small dogs. I was about to switch when I read about this, and I decided against it. Very scary! I would contact the company and lodge a complaint. Nothing may come of it, but at least it will be on record. Maybe if the company receives enough acecdotal evidence, they'll stop marketing it to small dogs (hope springs eternal!).


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## Liz

Reservoir of infection really - my dogs are chemical and vaccine free as well as raw fed. Like Natalie stated my pets are no danger to your "protected" dogs. Your dogs are a danger to mine, your dogs who shed whatever vaccine they have recently received in a mutated form are the issue. We have no vaccinated dogs near our property to keep our young ones healthy. I will not petsit vaccinated dogs when I have a litter. We, who Naturally Rear are actually at risk from your dogs not vice versa.


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## 1605

I know I have said this before, but given the "us" vs "them" mentality that springs up in these threads, I think it bears repeating:

ANYTHING you give your dog is broken down into CHEMICALS. Just because something is "natural" or "holistic" does not mean that it is not potentially dangerous to your dog. Nor is it automatically "superior" to something that can buy in a more pure/concentrated form in a pill, liquid, whatever.

Yes, it may well be biologically and nutritionally better to give a dog a whole natural item from which their body extracts the necessary chemical because the way the body breaks it down in order to use that chemical may also be beneficial. However, in some cases the amount of the chemical available "naturally" would require you to give the dog excessive amounts of the item in order to achieve a therapeutic dose. Or the "natural" version of the chemical would simply not be as effective. In such cases it would be better to actually give the dog a more direct/pure dose of the chemical in question.

IMHO you CAN do both; it doesn't have to be one or the other.


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## PunkyPug

Did you research the product before using it?


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## Makovach

SubMariner said:


> I know I have said this before, but given the "us" vs "them" mentality that springs up in these threads, I think it bears repeating:
> 
> ANYTHING you give your dog is broken down into CHEMICALS. Just because something is "natural" or "holistic" does not mean that it is not potentially dangerous to your dog. Nor is it automatically "superior" to something that can buy in a more pure/concentrated form in a pill, liquid, whatever.
> 
> Yes, it may well be biologically and nutritionally better to give a dog a whole natural item from which their body extracts the necessary chemical because the way the body breaks it down in order to use that chemical may also be beneficial. However, in some cases the amount of the chemical available "naturally" would require you to give the dog excessive amounts of the item in order to achieve a therapeutic dose. Or the "natural" version of the chemical would simply not be as effective. In such cases it would be better to actually give the dog a more direct/pure dose of the chemical in question.
> 
> IMHO you CAN do both; it doesn't have to be one or the other.


To me this is like comparing apples to a beef brisket. Natural "chemicals" are just that, NATURAL. as to where all the vaccines and treatments that you get from your vet are man made.

Not wanting to start anything. 

Just saying I don't get how they compare. Yes anything can be harmful and have side affects. But for example, using diatomacious earth to worm my dogs instead of fenbenzol or ivermectin, I see a lot more things that ponit to the better of diatomacious earth, and a lot more bad possiblilties to man made drugs. two compleatly different things. Its a choice to use holistics and avoid man made drugs and chemicals. I don't get what the big deal is over it.


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## PunkyPug

Liz said:


> Reservoir of infection really - my dogs are chemical and vaccine free as well as raw fed. Like Natalie stated my pets are no danger to your "protected" dogs. Your dogs are a danger to mine, your dogs who shed whatever vaccine they have recently received in a mutated form are the issue. We have no vaccinated dogs near our property to keep our young ones healthy. I will not petsit vaccinated dogs when I have a litter. We, who Naturally Rear are actually at risk from your dogs not vice versa.


Please do explain how you think your "naturally reared" dogs are at risk when exposed to dog who is protected?
How well do you think your dogs could handle the rabies disease? The heartworm? etc etc

A friend of mine was raised anti vaccine and "all natural" his whole life. We both purchased a doberman pup from the same litter. He never vaccinated his dog. I vaccinated mine. During Fall 2009 we we're out on a trail ride and a rabid **** crossed our paths. The **** attacked both dogs. Both dogs received intensive care AT THE SAME TIME. And yet, his dog died. He felt he did wrong by his dog and that he wasn't correctly educated. He now vaccinates and treats all his animals.


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## Liz

We have made our choices as a family after much research. There is risk involved in every choice we make. I accept the risks of not vaccinating and prepare to deal with the eventuality of disease. Rabies is a concern and I do my best to mitigate the risk. Can something go wrong yes, of course. I am more willing to take the small risk of rabies exposure to injecting toxins into my dog and knowingly risking his health in ways I can't even see. Every vaccine carries toxins in the adjuvants and I am unwilling to do this to my pets purposefully. Every vaccinated dog sheds copious amounts of whatever they have recently been vaccinated against. I don't want my dogs around such a concentrated amount of various diseases. 

This is the same reason we do not use flea/tick chemicals, heart worm, yard sprays and even household cleaners are as organic as possible. I do believe that removing toxins and chemicals from our family and dog's life is in their best interest and increases their immune system and ability to fight disease, infection and other bacteria.

I do not judge those who have made different choices. It is a big leap of faith to move away from conventional medicine and treatment and many people are not ready and may never be ready. We are all in a different place and that's fine. I only ask that the same respect I give to those who make choices different than mine. I hope your dogs remain healthy and happy.


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## DaneMama

PunkyPug said:


> A friend of mine was raised anti vaccine and "all natural" his whole life. We both purchased a doberman pup from the same litter. He never vaccinated his dog. I vaccinated mine. During Fall 2009 we we're out on a trail ride and a rabid **** crossed our paths. The **** attacked both dogs. Both dogs received intensive care AT THE SAME TIME. And yet, his dog died. He felt he did wrong by his dog and that he wasn't correctly educated. He now vaccinates and treats all his animals.


Rabies is a disease that doesn't have a cure. If both dogs actually got rabies they wouldn't have been treated. They both would have been euthanized. So....the rabies vaccine did nothing to "protect" your dog from the attack of the raccoon. The wounds caused by the raccoon (I pressume) are the real cause of death of your friends dog. Raccoons are known to be cess pools of disease, bites from raccoons can and do kill dogs.


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## PunkyPug

Liz said:


> We have made our choices as a family after much research. There is risk involved in every choice we make. I accept the risks of not vaccinating and prepare to deal with the eventuality of disease. Rabies is a concern and I do my best to mitigate the risk. Can something go wrong yes, of course. I am more willing to take the small risk of rabies exposure to injecting toxins into my dog and knowingly risking his health in ways I can't even see. Every vaccine carries toxins in the adjuvants and I am unwilling to do this to my pets purposefully. Every vaccinated dog sheds copious amounts of whatever they have recently been vaccinated against. I don't want my dogs around such a concentrated amount of various diseases.
> 
> This is the same reason we do not use flea/tick chemicals, heart worm, yard sprays and even household cleaners are as organic as possible. I do believe that removing toxins and chemicals from our family and dog's life is in their best interest and increases their immune system and ability to fight disease, infection and other bacteria.
> 
> I do not judge those who have made different choices. It is a big leap of faith to move away from conventional medicine and treatment and many people are not ready and may never be ready. We are all in a different place and that's fine. I only ask that the same respect I give to those who make choices different than mine. I hope your dogs remain healthy and happy.


Shed what? Do you have any proof of protected animals shedding whatever and how it is harmful to your animals?


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## InkedMarie

Liz said:


> This is the same reason we do not use flea/tick chemicals, heart worm, yard sprays and even household cleaners are as organic as possible. I do believe that removing toxins and chemicals from our family and dog's life is in their best interest and increases their immune system and ability to fight disease, infection and other bacteria.


Not dog related but you brought it up above.....what do you use for household cleaners? What about laundry detergent? I picked up a new laundry soap, trying to be "better" but I'm not sure it's cleaning as well, curious what you use. Thanks!


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## lily

I did vacs,frontline,wormers on my dog and she became too ill to have any quality of life ,even her breathing became affected,I loved that dog dearly but decided to put her to sleep ,a dog that can't play on grass,walk without becoming breathless,allergic to other dogs ,allergic to the meat I was feeding her is not living the way it should,I had her allergy tested after 14 months of trying to figure out what went wrong with her,the test came back with 37 listed allergens all due to vaccination damage,we are drip fed an awful lot of bad advice by our vets,tv,advertising ,and other dog owners and breeders who all seem to think that putting toxic chemicals into our dogs is the only way to protect them,well we live and learn ,I learnt the hard way ,I lost my friend and companion to bad advice ,my chi has had the tiniest dose of puppy vacs,I didn't do the lepto vacs ,YES I worry from time to time regarding her becoming ill,but not as much if I was still putting chemicals into her,if I need help I ask here and am always helped and reassured,we do what we think is best for our dogs ,we are responsible for them and it's all about our own choices,I really don't think the original post is scaremongering at all it's all about informing others after that we make our choices,this board is not a peeing competition for many of us it's a lifeline of knowledge and support ,when I'm given information I google the information the make my choice,but have to say that I usually go with what I've been advised here ,karen


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## naturalfeddogs

PunkyPug said:


> Shed what? Do you have any proof of protected animals shedding whatever and how it is harmful to your animals?


They shed the diesese itself in their poop. Here's a site with more about it. The whole article is good, but the info on the shedding of the virus is down just above where all the html's are listed. Maybe halfway down the page. Limited Vaccine Protocol


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## 1605

Makovach said:


> To me this is like comparing apples to a beef brisket. Natural "chemicals" are just that, NATURAL. as to where all the vaccines and treatments that you get from your vet are man made.
> 
> Not wanting to start anything.
> 
> Just saying I don't get how they compare. Yes anything can be harmful and have side affects. But for example, using diatomacious earth to worm my dogs instead of fenbenzol or ivermectin, I see a lot more things that ponit to the better of diatomacious earth, and a lot more bad possiblilties to man made drugs. two compleatly different things. Its a choice to use holistics and avoid man made drugs and chemicals. I don't get what the big deal is over it.


Please re-read my post. 

Meanwhile, by way of example, take a look here about aspirin: Where did Aspirin come from?
The original/natural formulation came from willow tree bark. But there were some very nasty side effects. Was it "wrong" to reformulate it so that it was actually usable?

A slightly different example is calcium. Everyone agrees that it is best to get your calcium "naturally" through foods that you eat. However, all calcium is not "equal", and some forms (like from oyster shells) may actually be harmful: What type of calcium supplement should I buy?

BTW, "holistic" doesn't mean to "avoid man-made drugs and chemicals". It means to look at the body/person/environment as a whole, as opposed to separate parts.

Again, I assert that "natural" and "synthetic/man made" are not incompatible. One can use the best of BOTH.


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## Liz

Punky pug - I don't need the attitude. You can look it up yourself like I did. I don't need to explain my choices to you or ask your permission and your attitude is aggressive and annoying. If you think injecting your dogs with toxins and covering them with chemicals is a great idea well you go for it. I do not. I really don't understand your combativeness as no one is trying to change you. Yes, dogs and people shed the vaccine/disease they have just been giving in their bodily fluids and stool for two to three weeks after receiving a vaccine. It is a concentrated version of the natural disease therefore more dangerous to my unvaccinated dogs as in nature they would not be exposed to that concentration of disease all at once. 

I don't tell anyone what they should do other than educate themselves before poisoning their pets or their children. I don't understand anyone having a problem with that. 

Inked Marie - we make our own laundry soap - these are the ones I have found work the best - my husband is a mechanic and it does a pretty good job on even oil and grease and I have two teenagers. There are two liquid recipes and one powdered. I also add essential oils for aroma. Whatever strikes my fancy when I make the soap. If husband has been annoying i add rose oil, sometimes lavender, etc. 

Hot water
1/2 cup Washing Soda
1/2 cup Borax
1/3 bar Soap (grated)
In a large pot, heat 3 pints of water. Add the grated bar and stir until melted. Then add the washing soda and borax. Stir until powder is dissolved, then remove from heat.
In a 2 gallon clean pail, pour 1 quart of hot water and add the heated mixture. Top pail with cold water and stir well.
Use 1/2 cup per load, stirring before each use (will gel).

Powdered – Recipe #4
2 cups Fels Naptha Soap (finely grated – you could also try the other bar soaps listed at the top)
1 cup Washing Soda
1 cup Borax
Mix well and store in an airtight plastic container.
Use 2 tablespoons per full load.
#5
Hot water
1 bar (4.5 oz) Ivory Soap – grated
1 cup Washing Soda
In a large saucepan add grated soap and enough hot water to cover. Heat over medium-low heat and stir until melted.
Fill a large pail with 2.5 gallons of hot water, add hot mixture. Stir until well mixed.
Then add the washing soda, again stirring until well mixed.
Set aside to cool.
Use 1/2 cup per full load, stirring well before each use (will gel)


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## Liz

Submariner - I agree with you that we need to take the best of both. I do think that we accept rather too easily that something is not toxic because it does not kill or do damage instantly. There is also internal damage that we may not ever see, but it is there and much of it is passed on to future generations. I really believe a lot of what we are seeing in allergies and stomach ailments as well as behavioral issues requiring drug intervention is due to the last 50 or 60 years of increased chemicals and vaccines being introduced to our pets and ourselves. No one has to agree - and I am fine with agreeing to disagree. I respect your position and know that you are probably someone who does research before just giving something, many people are not like that. If a vet says do it they do without looking at side effects or complications. Those are the people I personally encourage to do their research and then make their choices. 

When my female collie got open pyo I did try to treat quickly and through conventional medicine but the only option given to me was spaying her because according to them she would be sterile anyway. We treated homepathically and she has just had a lovely litter. My male collie was treated with both types of medicine because what he had was aggressive and fast moving. We lost him anyway even trying the best of both worlds. There is always risk and understanding what risks we are choosing is all I am advocating.


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## Sheltielover25

Liz said:


> We have made our choices as a family after much research. There is risk involved in every choice we make. I accept the risks of not vaccinating and prepare to deal with the eventuality of disease. Rabies is a concern and I do my best to mitigate the risk. Can something go wrong yes, of course. I am more willing to take the small risk of rabies exposure to injecting toxins into my dog and knowingly risking his health in ways I can't even see. Every vaccine carries toxins in the adjuvants and I am unwilling to do this to my pets purposefully. Every vaccinated dog sheds copious amounts of whatever they have recently been vaccinated against. I don't want my dogs around such a concentrated amount of various diseases.
> 
> This is the same reason we do not use flea/tick chemicals, heart worm, yard sprays and even household cleaners are as organic as possible. I do believe that removing toxins and chemicals from our family and dog's life is in their best interest and increases their immune system and ability to fight disease, infection and other bacteria.
> 
> I do not judge those who have made different choices. It is a big leap of faith to move away from conventional medicine and treatment and many people are not ready and may never be ready. We are all in a different place and that's fine. I only ask that the same respect I give to those who make choices different than mine. I hope your dogs remain healthy and happy.


I live the exact same kind of life as Liz, learning more and more daily and flushing out bad things daily. We make our own shampoos, toothpaste, deodorant, all cleaning supplies, laundry soap, uhh anything else you can think of. We drink raw milk, eat butter oil from grass-fed cows, buy almost all produce/meat locally, make our own kefir and other fermented drinks, and wouldn't dream of using an antibiotic unless one of us were really, really sick. I plan to have a child in the next year and it will never see a vaccine... it will start off being born at home and hopefully have as little doctor interaction as possible. I won't get ultrasounds or anything that is done that doesn't have to be done.

I fostered two puppies who had just been vaccinated with Zoonosis or whatever it is and all three of mine got ill. One got ill for two days, and the younger ones just got a brush of it. That's all the proof I needed to know vaccines shed. There are so many chemicals in the soil and air these days, why not try to reduce them whenever we can? Research vaccines and perhaps you'll understand why some of us feel the negatives easily outweigh the positives. The vets are amazed by healthy my dogs are and don't even question me not vaccinating/heart worm/flea anymore because my dogs are so healthy, what can they say? I believe in this lifestyle for my whole family, pets included, and so far, I've seen nothing but positives.


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## naturalfeddogs

Wow Liz, you are just amazing! :washing: You have the best "recipes". :thumb:


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## naturalfeddogs

Sheltielover25 said:


> I live the exact same kind of life as Liz, learning more and more daily and flushing out bad things daily. We make our own shampoos, toothpaste, deodorant, all cleaning supplies, laundry soap, uhh anything else you can think of. We drink raw milk, eat butter oil from grass-fed cows, buy almost all produce/meat locally, make our own kefir and other fermented drinks, and wouldn't dream of using an antibiotic unless one of us were really, really sick. I plan to have a child in the next year and it will never see a vaccine... it will start off being born at home and hopefully have as little doctor interaction as possible. I won't get ultrasounds or anything that is done that doesn't have to be done.
> 
> I fostered two puppies who had just been vaccinated with Zoonosis or whatever it is and all three of mine got ill. One got ill for two days, and the younger ones just got a brush of it. That's all the proof I needed to know vaccines shed. There are so many chemicals in the soil and air these days, why not try to reduce them whenever we can? Research vaccines and perhaps you'll understand why some of us feel the negatives easily outweigh the positives. The vets are amazed by healthy my dogs are and don't even question me not vaccinating/heart worm/flea anymore because my dogs are so healthy, what can they say? I believe in this lifestyle for my whole family, pets included, and so far, I've seen nothing but positives.


I'm leaning more and more that way the more I learn here. I think it's a wonderful, healthy lifestyle.


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## InkedMarie

Liz said:


> Whatever strikes my fancy when I make the soap. If husband has been annoying i add rose oil, sometimes lavender, etc.
> 
> )


ROFL!!

(thank you for the recipes)


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## Scarlett_O'

InkedMarie said:


> Not dog related but you brought it up above.....what do you use for household cleaners? What about laundry detergent? I picked up a new laundry soap, trying to be "better" but I'm not sure it's cleaning as well, curious what you use. Thanks!


Im not Liz, but for us we use Baking Soda and Vinegar as our top cleaning supplies. (I use baking soda for a TON of stuff....deo, shampoo, tooth paste, etc)
And for laundry detergent we use soap nuts...LOVE them!!:biggrin:
(Im not a big recipe person...cant ever get my self around to making stuff!LOL)



Sheltielover25 said:


> I live the exact same kind of life as Liz, learning more and more daily and flushing out bad things daily. We make our own shampoos, toothpaste, deodorant, all cleaning supplies, laundry soap, uhh anything else you can think of. We drink raw milk, eat butter oil from grass-fed cows, buy almost all produce/meat locally, make our own kefir and other fermented drinks, and wouldn't dream of using an antibiotic unless one of us were really, really sick. I plan to have a child in the next year and it will never see a vaccine... it will start off being born at home and hopefully have as little doctor interaction as possible. I won't get ultrasounds or anything that is done that doesn't have to be done.
> 
> I fostered two puppies who had just been vaccinated with Zoonosis or whatever it is and all three of mine got ill. One got ill for two days, and the younger ones just got a brush of it. That's all the proof I needed to know vaccines shed. There are so many chemicals in the soil and air these days, why not try to reduce them whenever we can? Research vaccines and perhaps you'll understand why some of us feel the negatives easily outweigh the positives. The vets are amazed by healthy my dogs are and don't even question me not vaccinating/heart worm/flea anymore because my dogs are so healthy, what can they say? I believe in this lifestyle for my whole family, pets included, and so far, I've seen nothing but positives.


That is AWESOME!!!:thumb:

I am 30 weeks along, he will be born either here at home or at my MW's birthing center. I dont plan on him ever getting a jab of any kind, and we also will not be taking him to the doctor but for EXTREME times!:wink:




Vaccines are a huge thing that Ive looked into....havent found a single good thing about them...not even one!!:hand:

As far as chemicals....ya, nope...totally against them, they dont come into my home other then under extreme circumstances!:wink:


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## Nana52

I'm just wondering, those of you who don't get your kids vaccinated, is it not required for school? Or do you home school? I was freaked out recently when my 5-year-old granddaughter had to have 6 .... count them, 6 .... booster shots to go into kindergarten!!! I just don't get it. I mean, I had mumps, chickenpox, measles and all that jazz when I was a kid, no big deal except for a few days of itching and mild discomfort. Vaccinating for serious, potentially life-threatening diseases is one thing ... but geez louise ... that's crazy, isn't it?


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## Liz

My children are not vaccinated and we do homeschool. Every state has exemptions - you do NOT have to vaccinate your children. I would no more introduce those toxins into my children than my pets.


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## Scarlett_O'

Nana52 said:


> I'm just wondering, those of you who don't get your kids vaccinated, is it not required for school? Or do you home school? I was freaked out recently when my 5-year-old granddaughter had to have 6 .... count them, 6 .... booster shots to go into kindergarten!!! I just don't get it. I mean, I had mumps, chickenpox, measles and all that jazz when I was a kid, no big deal except for a few days of itching and mild discomfort. Vaccinating for serious, potentially life-threatening diseases is one thing ... but geez louise ... that's crazy, isn't it?


I plan on home-schooling my little one as I was also.

But there are exemptions for each and every state. Some states allow for all 3 types(Medical, Physical and religious.) 
Here is a good link: State Vaccine Requirements

And yes there are FAR too many vaccines pushed onto parents, from the time that the babies are born! It is deplorable!!


----------



## Sheltielover25

Scarlett_O' said:


> Im not Liz, but for us we use Baking Soda and Vinegar as our top cleaning supplies. (I use baking soda for a TON of stuff....deo, shampoo, tooth paste, etc)
> And for laundry detergent we use soap nuts...LOVE them!!:biggrin:
> (Im not a big recipe person...cant ever get my self around to making stuff!LOL)
> 
> 
> 
> That is AWESOME!!!:thumb:
> 
> I am 30 weeks along, he will be born either here at home or at my MW's birthing center. I dont plan on him ever getting a jab of any kind, and we also will not be taking him to the doctor but for EXTREME times!:wink:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Vaccines are a huge thing that Ive looked into....havent found a single good thing about them...not even one!!:hand:
> 
> As far as chemicals....ya, nope...totally against them, they dont come into my home other then under extreme circumstances!:wink:


Aw CONGRATS! YAY to a STRONG mother who doesn't give into pressure and researches what's best for their child! My baby will be going to the Chiropractor if he/she gets sick. On a side note, my girlfriend (soon to be wife if WA upholds gay marriage) will be moving to Seattle in January!!! I'm in Oklahoma right now and having a kid here AIN'T happening lol

I just saw something on Facebook... there's a huge pertussis scare going around and it turns out, Bic pens kill more people per year than pertussis. Seriously, no joke! People chewing on lids and accidentely swallowing them (around 100) happens more than someone dying from pertussis. (I believe 11 in the last yr per the CDC) YEAH I'll take my risks and you keep your poison!


----------



## Panchovilla

I believe an unprotected dog next door as a reservoir of heartworm infection is a threat to my dog, even if my dog is on monthly heartworm prevention and I will tell you why. I am not 100% confident in the drugs' efficacy. I am more like 99% confident in the drugs' efficacy which is why I give it. I am not however as confident in my giving the drug on schedule each month. I know I have missed doses and sadly put my dogs' health at risk. If the dog next door is unprotected, or if the dog's owner mistakenly believes there is some holistic method of preventing heartworm, then the risk to my dog when I miss prevention is increased tremendously. I am not aware that there is anyone advocating a holistic method of prevention, but if there is I would like to see their research. I am all ears. I am also aware that people get worms mixed up, and someone who has rid their dog of intestinal worms, holistically or not, sometimes mistakenly believes they have taken care of heartworms also.


----------



## 1605

Nana52 said:


> I'm just wondering, those of you who don't get your kids vaccinated, is it not required for school? Or do you home school? I was freaked out recently when my 5-year-old granddaughter had to have 6 .... count them, 6 .... booster shots to go into kindergarten!!! I just don't get it. I mean, I had mumps, chickenpox, measles and all that jazz when I was a kid, no big deal except for a few days of itching and mild discomfort. Vaccinating for serious, potentially life-threatening diseases is one thing ... but geez louise ... that's crazy, isn't it?


I can understand people who homeschool thinking that vaccinations are not needed. But unlike pets who can be sequestered away from the rest of the world for their entire lives, children grow up & leave the nest. 

As a kid I too went through measles, chicken pox, etc. I got off relatively lightly in most cases. But there were several kids in my neighbourhood who were not so lucky. And when the first wave of "Asian Flu" went through in the early 70's I was bedridden for a month and literally could not even stand on my own all that time. Now I am a firm believer in getting a flu shot every year because I don't want to go through something like that again.

Those who think vaccinations are a waste might want to read this from the World Health Organization about measles: WHO | Measles

FWIW,


----------



## Liz

I am sorry for your experience. My kids are not sequestered. We are very involved in our church bus ministry and they have always visited the kids on their bus route weekly and have 40-60 kids on each bus weekly. They are involved in other community activities from visiting nursing homes to children's hospital's . They are rarely ever sick and a flu is a two day thing they sleep off. We have recently had an outbreak of whooping cough in our area - my kids did not get it but many kids on our busses and that they see at other functions have and they had all been vaccinated for it. I will stick with our non toxic lifestyle as I am seeing the benefits daily. Like I said there is a risk with every decision and you should understand and accept those risks. 

I just notice but my dogs are not "sequestered" either. They are mascots on our busses and attend handling classes and go to shows as well as run around with me all week. Not a like where they are housebound.


----------



## Sheltielover25

SubMariner said:


> I can understand people who homeschool thinking that vaccinations are not needed. But unlike pets who can be sequestered away from the rest of the world for their entire lives, children grow up & leave the nest.
> 
> As a kid I too went through measles, chicken pox, etc. I got off relatively lightly in most cases. But there were several kids in my neighbourhood who were not so lucky. And when the first wave of "Asian Flu" went through in the early 70's I was bedridden for a month and literally could not even stand on my own all that time. Now I am a firm believer in getting a flu shot every year because I don't want to go through something like that again.
> 
> Those who think vaccinations are a waste might want to read this from the World Health Organization about measles: WHO | Measles
> 
> FWIW,


Now, I know this is a dog forum, but I can't help but CRINGE when I read someone write the words " I get the flu shot every year." In my opinion, besides the DTAP, it's the worst one. I would list it as the worst, but the combination of the DTAP pushes it up to the top spot. I mean: Triton X-100 (a detergent); polysorbate 80 (a potential carcinogen) gelatin; formaldehyde; and residual egg proteins and many of the influenza vaccines still contain thimerosal as a preservative COMBINED with the fact there are no guarantees that the influenza viruses selected for the vaccine will be the identical strains circulating during a given flu season -- I'll take my chances of getting the flu any day over injecting up to 25 ug of mercury into my blood. They've taken thimerosal out of almost all of them.... what does THAT tell you?

I'm trusting what our higher being/mother nature put here and eating healthy nutritious foods and building my immune system over some billion dollar industry that fast-tracks vaccines and have a court specifically. Not to mention, the people that die from the flu each year compared to those injured is enough for me to take a chance. Life in general is risky, but I don't need to live my life or risk my animals/childrens lives by injecting them with poison. To each their own, though, just thought I'd let you know the ingredients.


----------



## Herzo

sheltielover the formaldehyde would preserve your bod. Hahahaha OK that was just not nice....... sorry. I just had to be a smart ........you know what. I never get the flu shot. People are on me all the time. 

I wonder when they will be short again, I think that was all about getting more people to get it.


----------



## 1605

Liz said:


> I am sorry for your experience. My kids are not sequestered. We are very involved in our church bus ministry and they have always visited the kids on their bus route weekly and have 40-60 kids on each bus weekly. They are involved in other community activities from visiting nursing homes to children's hospital's . They are rarely ever sick and a flu is a two day thing they sleep off. We have recently had an outbreak of whooping cough in our area - my kids did not get it but many kids on our busses and that they see at other functions have and they had all been vaccinated for it. I will stick with our non toxic lifestyle as I am seeing the benefits daily. Like I said there is a risk with every decision and you should understand and accept those risks.
> 
> I just notice but my dogs are not "sequestered" either. They are mascots on our busses and attend handling classes and go to shows as well as run around with me all week. Not a like where they are housebound.


Liz, it's great that your chosen lifestyle works for you. I'm all for "non toxic lifestyles". But as active as you & yours are in your community, I don't think they are as "exposed to outside organisms" as you think you are by virtue of where & how you live. For example, what is the population of your town? How much interaction do you actually have with people outside your local area?

For most of my life I lived in Toronto. Unless you live & work in a similarly large urban area, I probably came in contact with more people using mass transit to/from work in a day than you do in a month. 

I'm not trying to be condescending or patronizing, I'm just trying to put things in perspective when talking about exposure to pathogens. You can't gain antibodies or immunity if you have never come in contact with anything to trigger that response. You just have to look at what happened to Aboriginal people when they were first exposed to measles to see the results when there is no immunity.

Pax,


----------



## 1605

Sheltielover25 said:


> Now, I know this is a dog forum, but I can't help but CRINGE when I read someone write the words " I get the flu shot every year." In my opinion, besides the DTAP, it's the worst one. I would list it as the worst, but the combination of the DTAP pushes it up to the top spot. I mean: Triton X-100 (a detergent); polysorbate 80 (a potential carcinogen) gelatin; formaldehyde; and residual egg proteins and many of the influenza vaccines still contain thimerosal as a preservative COMBINED with the fact there are no guarantees that the influenza viruses selected for the vaccine will be the identical strains circulating during a given flu season -- I'll take my chances of getting the flu any day over injecting up to 25 ug of mercury into my blood. They've taken thimerosal out of almost all of them.... what does THAT tell you?


With all due respect, from where are you getting this information? It's all well & good to say "they contain..." and "a potential carcinogen" "injecting up to 25 ug of mercury into my blood". I am especially skeptical of the mention of mercury. Do you honestly think that someone is putting MERCURY into a product for people?

Also, you contradict yourself saying "many of the influenza vaccines still contain thimerosal"... then two sentences later "They've taken thimersosal out of all almost all of them". Your argument is confusing.

While it's true that influenza is a virus, it's not a lottery that decides which version they use to create a vaccine. Research determines which is the most prevalent strain and that is used as the template. Frankly, when the pandemic flus go around like various Asian or H1 versions, I would much rather get a jab than risk being bedridden for 3 weeks. Or worse.



> I'm trusting what our higher being/mother nature put here and eating healthy nutritious foods and building my immune system over some billion dollar industry that fast-tracks vaccines and have a court specifically. Not to mention, the people that die from the flu each year compared to those injured is enough for me to take a chance. Life in general is risky, but I don't need to live my life or risk my animals/childrens lives by injecting them with poison. To each their own, though, just thought I'd let you know the ingredients.


Again, from where are you getting "the people that die from the flu each year compared to those injured is enough for me to take a chance"?

Yes, it's true you can build immunity to certain diseases, but people have been lulled into a false sense of complacency by the fact they personally haven't been affected by some of the more virulent strains that are around today. There is no more "herd immunity" because the herd is no longer immune.


----------



## Caty M

Submariner, I also live in a fairly large urban area (well, Calgary!) and also do the non toxic lifestyle. Our dogs go everywhere and have built up immunity- neither have shots and their one year titers showed antibodies to both parvo and distemper. We do not have heartworm so I don't have to deal with that, but we've been quite successful and we go to all sorts of germy places like dog parks, pet stores, etc.


----------



## Caty M

I don't see the point in flu shots- the only time I've had the flu in the last ten years was two weeks after the flu shot- LOL. I was in bed for a week and a half.


----------



## naturalfeddogs

My mother -in-law got a flu shot a couple of years ago. About two or three weeks later, she was critical in ICU with the flu. She has not gotten another shot, and not had the flu again. I was sick regular as a child, getting all my childhood vaccinations. I haven't been sick at all as an adult, other than a mild cold on occasion. Not enough to even slow me down. My son, Kirby also stayed sick every year he started school while he was still having to have his vaccinations. Since he is now done with childhood vaccines, he hasn't been sick at all. If I had it to do over again, there would sure be NO shots given. At the doctors office when getting the shots, they gave us a whole page of potential side affects and problems to look for. When they give you that kind of info along with the shots you know they can be potentially more harmful than helpful.


----------



## Sheltielover25

Where did I get my information from? The CDC. Are you aware of what Thimerosol is? on the CDC website (and no I don't trust anything they say, but most people seem to consider then a valid source) "Thimerosal is a mercury-based preservative that has been used for decades in the United States in multi-dose vials (vials containing more than one dose) of some vaccines to prevent the growth of germs, bacteria and fungi, that can contaminate them." When I say they've taken it out of almost all of them, I mean just that. They're are many more vaccines than just the flu and the government has removed it from almost all of them BUT the flu. Considering when a thermometer bursts, a whole building needs to be evacuated, I'm not shooting it into my veins no matter how safe they say it is. How do you feel know that you know you've been shooting up mercury? You can request one without the thimerosal, but since you weren't aware of the ingredient, I doubt that's been your case. At least you know for the future.


----------



## Liz

While Toronto is huge we are in areas like Seattle and Tacoma and Federal Way which are decent size cities. No they are not New York or Toronto but neither are they a rural farm town. We are in these areas several times per week and visit people in their homes and in the community. 

Federal Way and Tacoma in the recent years have been the center for outbreaks of menengitis twice and lately whooping cough. Even though we are in the area often we remain unaffected and have no fear of these outbreaks. My family has good immunity through exposure. 

Thirmesol is a nightmare and if you only investigated what was used to "stimulate" your response to vaccines you would cringe. I have no problem with building immunity to the actual disease but what else they put in the vaccines is the toxic and dangerous part which is meant to stimulate an immune response but can actually send your immune system into a self attacking response. 

I do not think you will change your stance but neither will we who have researched and found the dangers unacceptable. Just please don't believe "they" would not do that to people because yes, most certainly they do, have and will continue to do so. Think of all the chemicals, medications, etc that were once so very proven safe only to be found out to be toxic. 

I am not out to change anyone's mind. If someone asks a question I will lead them to the info I have but otherwise I hope you do well. Just realize man made medications and therapies are not harmless and well tested and can be very toxic and harmful. Just because you do not see a reaction visibly does not mean one is not occurring internally.


----------



## 1605

Sheltielover25 said:


> Where did I get my information from? The CDC. Are you aware of what Thimerosol is? on the CDC website (and no I don't trust anything they say, but most people seem to consider then a valid source) "Thimerosal is a mercury-based preservative that has been used for decades in the United States in multi-dose vials (vials containing more than one dose) of some vaccines to prevent the growth of germs, bacteria and fungi, that can contaminate them." When I say they've taken it out of almost all of them, I mean just that. They're are many more vaccines than just the flu and the government has removed it from almost all of them BUT the flu. Considering when a thermometer bursts, a whole building needs to be evacuated, I'm not shooting it into my veins no matter how safe they say it is. How do you feel know that you know you've been shooting up mercury? You can request one without the thimerosal, but since you weren't aware of the ingredient, I doubt that's been your case. At least you know for the future.


You "don't trust anything they [the CDC] say, but most people seem to consider them a valid source". Really? And yet you use them to support an argument (which, BTW, you haven't fully presented). 

Here is ALL the information from the CDC about Thimerosal: CDC - Seasonal Influenza (Flu) - Questions & Answers - Thimerosal and 2012-2013 Seasonal Flu Vaccines, most specifically the sections about whether or not Thimerosol in vaccines is safe and whether or not it has been linked to autism. They also present findings from independent agencies other than the CDC about this subject. 

Further information can be found here: Thimerosal in Vaccines: Experts Review the Evidence. In fact, this website seems to be well worth visiting: Immunization Action Coalition (IAC): Vaccine Information for Health Care Professionals who are a non-profit, non-affiliated organization.

Meanwhile, the alarmist rhetoric is not helping in this discussion. Your argument would be better presented without statements like "how do you feel know [sic] that you know you've been shooting up mercury?"

Pax,


----------



## NewYorkDogue

I remember back in the 1980's when they used thimerosal in contact lens solutions. I had bought a bottle when staying over at a friend's house- the following day after using it, my eyes had almost swollen shut with huge amounts of mucousy-yellow discharge. The discomfort was intense; I thought I had really damaged my eyes and couldn't figure out what I had done. Well, they shortly came out with a thimerosal-free contact lens solution due to the overwhelming complaints by consumers. 

Wow. I mean you would think they might have done some more thorough testing prior to releasing that onto the market...

Recently I have had to push my "conventional" vet to order me a t-free rabies vaccine. He pulled some strings to get just one dose for Mateo, and I am so happy that at least I won't have to worry about that worrisome component in the shot...it's just bad news.


----------



## 1605

Liz said:


> While Toronto is huge we are in areas like Seattle and Tacoma and Federal Way which are decent size cities. No they are not New York or Toronto but neither are they a rural farm town. We are in these areas several times per week and visit people in their homes and in the community.
> 
> Federal Way and Tacoma in the recent years have been the center for outbreaks of menengitis twice and lately whooping cough. Even though we are in the area often we remain unaffected and have no fear of these outbreaks. My family has good immunity through exposure.
> 
> Thirmesol is a nightmare and if you only investigated what was used to "stimulate" your response to vaccines you would cringe. I have no problem with building immunity to the actual disease but what else they put in the vaccines is the toxic and dangerous part which is meant to stimulate an immune response but can actually send your immune system into a self attacking response.
> 
> I do not think you will change your stance but neither will we who have researched and found the dangers unacceptable. Just please don't believe "they" would not do that to people because yes, most certainly they do, have and will continue to do so. Think of all the chemicals, medications, etc that were once so very proven safe only to be found out to be toxic.
> 
> I am not out to change anyone's mind. If someone asks a question I will lead them to the info I have but otherwise I hope you do well. Just realize man made medications and therapies are not harmless and well tested and can be very toxic and harmful. Just because you do not see a reaction visibly does not mean one is not occurring internally.


I have been on various scientific/medical sites regarding vaccines and the only thing they mention is using a weakened or dead version of a virus or bacteria in order to stimulate the body into creating antibodies. Can you give me a link to a reputable website that shows other things are the vaccines that are "toxic and dangerous... which is meant to stimulate an immune response but can actually send your immune system into a self attacking response"? It is not my intention to seem obtuse or obstinate, I simply want some facts. 

And again, ANY "medication" whether it be "natural" or "man made" can be "toxic and harmful".


----------



## DaViking

Liz said:


> Think of all the chemicals, medications, etc that were once so very proven safe only to be found out to be toxic.


And on the way we have moved the world forward and discovered new things. It's called progress, progress comes with casualties. The world is inherently a dangerous place. You can spread your word about natural living and homeopathic snake oil because of progress, not despite it. The alternative is falling into the abyss when you reach the end of a flat world.


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## naturalfeddogs

DaViking said:


> And on the way we have moved the world forward and discovered new things. It's called progress, progress comes with casualties. The world is inherently a dangerous place. You can spread your word about natural living and homeopathic snake oil because of progress, not despite it. The alternative is falling into the abyss when you reach the end of a flat world.


Why do you always have to be so rude?


----------



## DaViking

naturalfeddogs said:


> Why do you always have to be so rude?


I am not always rude. Why do you always have to be so sensitive?


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## naturalfeddogs

When it comes to anyone who raw feeds or prefers natural care for themselves or their animals, you have to jump in on them starting s**t. There is no point in it.


----------



## DaViking

naturalfeddogs said:


> When it comes to anyone who raw feeds or prefers natural care for themselves or their animals, you have to jump in on them starting s**t. There is no point in it.


I am not starting s**t, once in a blue moon I jump into other sections here and give my opinion on whatever. Usually not appreciated by ppl with more extreme views. I get and respect that, but I can still call homeopathic medicine snake oil or think ppl who buy into "natural care" are acting anything but natural. A complete no vaccination policy falls into the latter imho. "Natural" for human kind have been/is to eradicate or minimize dangerous diseases through vaccinations (among other measures of course). Not participating is not "natural" You can always discuss some' eagerness to sell or push vaccinations, but that's a different part of the discussion I feel.


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## naturalfeddogs

So, you just have no manners. I get it. I personally prefer the natural methods myself. You don't and that's fine, but nobody downs you for it. Quit downing others for the way they choose to live.


----------



## DaViking

naturalfeddogs said:


> So, you just have no manners. I get it. I personally prefer the natural methods myself. You don't and that's fine, but nobody downs you for it. Quit downing others for the way they choose to live.


In my lunch I walked a clients dog around the neighborhood. It's a small 20lb hothead terrier mix. Halfway into our walk a woman in her late twenties early 30s in oversized sunglasses, knitted wool cap and headphones blasting came walking the opposite way with her huge rottweiler. I got Spartacus in a heel and focused on me. The rottweiler seemed to be "heeling" nicely too but there where no control. As we where passing, accompanied by something that sounded like Nicki Minaj, the rottweiler jumped out towards Spartacus behind the woman's back, literally spinning her around. We where stopped dead in our tracks, huge chunk of rotti blocking us. A good second or three later she managed to say the letters "Oohhhhh!" I replied, "that's a little late now don't you think? You have 120lbs of muscle there and yet show no control or responsibility" She paused for a second while she figured out what to say then she replied, "Have you no manners?" I guess I have no manners. I guess she was right. I could have just walked on, but I didn't.

I have to add to the story that I was certain that the rotti would not harm anyone as it was displaying clear non aggressive communication. I had eye contact with the "beast" long before she even knew we was there. I would have done things differently if I suspected aggression from either.

I don't down anyone for choosing a different way of life, I salute diversity and minority opinions, anything else is unhealthy for society and quite frankly boring. Anyone who knows me will sign off on that. But, the educated hipster down at @johnnyscoffee sipping americanos while whipping up some new revolutionary code for a piece of software want to save us from ourselves too, only difference is that they understand believing in snake oil anything is not going to get it done. Thanks for the judgement though.


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## naturalfeddogs

You are very closed minded. But if you choose not to even consider learning anything about natural feeding and remedies, then just don't say anything. You won't change my mind anymore than I will change yours. Just agree to.disagree, and keep your comments about it to yourself.


----------



## DaViking

naturalfeddogs said:


> You are very closed minded. But if you choose not to even consider learning anything about natural feeding and remedies, then just don't say anything. You won't change my mind anymore than I will change yours. Just agree to.disagree, and keep your comments about it to yourself.


No; to being closed minded, No; to choose not to learn anything about natural feeding and remedies and no; to keeping comments and views to myself. I have done this for a long time now and I where part of a group who fed raw years ago back in my home-country of Norway. I was all over the "natural life" as a lifestyle for the longest time. After some time in the rat race I purchased and ran an all organic duck and chamomille farm out in the boonies. I was very into living a healthy sustainable life in tune with nature. So basically nothing of what you say is true. And for the record, I am not talking to you, Liz, SubMariner or anyone specific. I am talking, full stop. Whoever will take home whatever they feel make sense and put the rest in the thrash, or disregard everything for that matter. It's an open forum, don't try to mold the discussion into what you see fit.


----------



## naturalfeddogs

I am going to say this. Yes,.you are very rude the way you approach other peoples lifestyles, so I will agree to disagree on this. No one knocks the way you live and calls your beliefs "snake oil". I think you can be much nicer the way you talk to people. No, I Don't agree with you but it's your life and your dogs. Do as you please, no one can stop you if they tried. Agree to disagree. End of story.


----------



## DaViking

naturalfeddogs said:


> I am going to say this. Yes,.you are very rude the way you approach other peoples lifestyles, so I will agree to disagree on this. No one knocks the way you live and calls your beliefs "snake oil". I think you can be much nicer the way you talk to people. No, I Don't agree with you but it's your life and your dogs. Do as you please, no one can stop you if they tried. Agree to disagree. End of story.


Aha, I knew there was a trigger. Yes, yes, todays crazy rotti lady, you and some others here think I am rude. I beg to differ but that's not going to change anything.
I don't want to make this into a discussion about Homeopathy since it's a thread about trifexis, vaccines, etc. but I believe that's where it started and you now brought it up, so; If you choose to embrace homeopathic medicine in favor of trad. western medicine and science or some documented eastern medicine you shouldn't be too sensitive about "snake oil" comments. There is pretty much a unified world against you and any opportunity to speak up against the sale of homeopathic medicine should be used. I still believe in saving the world from ourselves but that doesn't mean I (or others) should buy into far fetch claims and junk science. Again, thanks for the judgement and yeah, we have to agree to disagree, like that was news 

Now back to your regularly scheduled programming.


----------



## Sheltielover25

SubMariner said:


> You "don't trust anything they [the CDC] say, but most people seem to consider them a valid source". Really? And yet you use them to support an argument (which, BTW, you haven't fully presented).
> 
> Here is ALL the information from the CDC about Thimerosal: CDC - Seasonal Influenza (Flu) - Questions & Answers - Thimerosal and 2012-2013 Seasonal Flu Vaccines, most specifically the sections about whether or not Thimerosol in vaccines is safe and whether or not it has been linked to autism. They also present findings from independent agencies other than the CDC about this subject.
> 
> Further information can be found here: Thimerosal in Vaccines: Experts Review the Evidence. In fact, this website seems to be well worth visiting: Immunization Action Coalition (IAC): Vaccine Information for Health Care Professionals who are a non-profit, non-affiliated organization.
> 
> Meanwhile, the alarmist rhetoric is not helping in this discussion. Your argument would be better presented without statements like "how do you feel know [sic] that you know you've been shooting up mercury?"
> 
> Pax,


First off, forgive me for typos, I'm trying to provide closed-captioning on live television and type this at the same time which isn't always the easiet of things. Either way, I really don't care to discuss this anymore with you and don't care what you put into your body. If you're okaying putting toxins in your body, go ahead, be my guest. Why would I care? Survival of the fittest and if you think shooting up mercury and formaldehyde and carbolic acid in hopes of avoiding the flu, then that's your right. The only thing that sucks is when it catches up to you, I just hope you have insurance so we're not having to bear the burden of uprising costs of medical care should you have no insurance or it exceed your insurance coverage. I don't need facts to support the fact they are toxins in vaccines, and mercury in the flu shot, it's common sense. You could possibly argue whether the benefits outweigh the positives as that's subjective based on where you stand, but the ingredients aren't up for debate. When I mention hoping we're not going to be responsible for your future medical care due to putting mercury into your system, here's a list of those diseases you run the risk of dealing with:

Mercury and Aluminum in Vaccines: a Primer on NVIC’s Vaccine Ingredients Calculator | VaxTruth.org (scroll down a little)

Again, your body, your right. If someone is educated on the ingredients and the toxins and continues to vaccinate then there's no hope for them.


----------



## Scarlett_O'

Liz said:


> While Toronto is huge we are in areas like Seattle and Tacoma and Federal Way which are decent size cities. No they are not New York or Toronto but neither are they a rural farm town. We are in these areas several times per week and visit people in their homes and in the community.
> 
> Federal Way and Tacoma in the recent years have been the center for outbreaks of menengitis twice and lately whooping cough. Even though we are in the area often we remain unaffected and have no fear of these outbreaks. My family has good immunity through exposure.
> 
> Thirmesol is a nightmare and if you only investigated what was used to "stimulate" your response to vaccines you would cringe. I have no problem with building immunity to the actual disease but what else they put in the vaccines is the toxic and dangerous part which is meant to stimulate an immune response but can actually send your immune system into a self attacking response.
> 
> I do not think you will change your stance but neither will we who have researched and found the dangers unacceptable. Just please don't believe "they" would not do that to people because yes, most certainly they do, have and will continue to do so. Think of all the chemicals, medications, etc that were once so very proven safe only to be found out to be toxic.
> 
> I am not out to change anyone's mind. If someone asks a question I will lead them to the info I have but otherwise I hope you do well. Just realize man made medications and therapies are not harmless and well tested and can be very toxic and harmful. Just because you do not see a reaction visibly does not mean one is not occurring internally.


As always THANK YOU SOOOO much for your amazing knowledge!!:thumb: 
You are one of THE BEST mentors a young mother(fur and skin) could EVER ask for!!:hug:


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## Liz

Panchovilla - your dog cannot get heartworm from another dog. Here is a quote for you on how dogs get heartworm.

Transmittion
Heartworms are transmitted to dogs through bites from infected mosquitos. Heartworms are spread when a mosquito bites an infected animal then bites another animal passing the infected blood along.

This is from Merrick's Veterinary Manual. Again people using chemicals/topicals etc. worried about the untreated dog. He is no danger to you or yours.


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## DaViking

@Panchovilla; Re. your concern, Liz is correct, an infected neighbor dog can not infect other dogs directly. However, mature worms in an infected dog discharge tiny worms into the bloodstream that can stay active for up to three years. These tiny worms in the blood are being sucked up by local mosquitos. Two to three weeks later they are ready to be deposited to a new host when the mosquito penetrate the skin of another dog.

ENY-628/MG100: Mosquito-Borne Dog Heartworm Disease

@Liz; *Any* dog with active worms in the bloodstream is a danger. Not in terms of physical contact but as "production facility"


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## Liz

That is true but there are many factors including temperature which play a part in a dog getting infected and the larvae maturing.


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## DaViking

Liz said:


> That is true but there are many factors including temperature which play a part in a dog getting infected and the larvae maturing.


You need daily minimum temp of 13+C (55+F) for min 3 days (nights) straight for the larvae to molt into the different stages. That doesn't have anything to do with treated or untreated dogs. An infected dog is a big threat regardless as long as the temp requirements are met.


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## 1605

Sheltielover25 said:


> First off, forgive me for typos, I'm trying to provide closed-captioning on live television and type this at the same time which isn't always the easiet of things. Either way, I really don't care to discuss this anymore with you and don't care what you put into your body. If you're okaying putting toxins in your body, go ahead, be my guest. Why would I care? Survival of the fittest and if you think shooting up mercury and formaldehyde and carbolic acid in hopes of avoiding the flu, then that's your right. The only thing that sucks is when it catches up to you, I just hope you have insurance so we're not having to bear the burden of uprising costs of medical care should you have no insurance or it exceed your insurance coverage. I don't need facts to support the fact they are toxins in vaccines, and mercury in the flu shot, it's common sense. You could possibly argue whether the benefits outweigh the positives as that's subjective based on where you stand, but the ingredients aren't up for debate. When I mention hoping we're not going to be responsible for your future medical care due to putting mercury into your system, here's a list of those diseases you run the risk of dealing with:
> 
> Mercury and Aluminum in Vaccines: a Primer on NVIC’s Vaccine Ingredients Calculator | VaxTruth.org (scroll down a little)
> 
> Again, your body, your right. If someone is educated on the ingredients and the toxins and continues to vaccinate then there's no hope for them.


With all due respect, after looking around the VaxTruth website I think a more fitting name might be VaxOpinion, as they seem to rely on one person's subjective opinion rather than actual facts. The whole "vaccines cause autism" discussion, for example. VERY interesting reading on that website.

Which leads me to this quote from you, which pretty much sums up your POV: "I don't need facts to support the fact they [sic] are toxins in vaccines, and mercury in the flu shot, it's common sense."

'Nuff said,


----------



## meggels

DaViking said:


> You need daily minimum temp of 13+C (55+F) for min 3 days (nights) straight for the larvae to molt into the different stages. That doesn't have anything to do with treated or untreated dogs. An infected dog is a big threat regardless as long as the temp requirements are met.


I was told it was more like 60 consecutive days and nights...


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## Sheltielover25

Considering there's been no long-term studies on vaccines, you nor I nor anyone else can say what they do and do not cause. Again, you continuing doing what you want with your body and I'll continue doing what I want with my body.  I don't feel the need to inject known carcinogens in my body because I'm confident in my immune system being strong and healthy by eat whole foods not ridden with pesticides and meat raised ethically and fed the correct diet along with nothing at all processed and very little sugar. Things like raw milk, raw liver, raw butter oil, farm-fresh eggs, a variety of veggies, and a variety of meats from different animals, those are my alternatives to vaccines. You know, giving the body the proper nutrients to survive and work properly.... I suppose if I ate a diet full of sugar, processed foods, store-bought meat/eggs, hormone filled milk, I'd consider relying on foreign things to make me healthy. However, I prefer the natural route that takes a bit more effort on my part, but gives me the relief of knowing I'm not having to put carcinogens directly into my bloodstream. To each their own, right?


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## Sheltielover25

meggels said:


> I was told it was more like 60 consecutive days and nights...


It's around 45 days. A far cry from 3!

- Terrierman's Daily Dose -


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## Liz

Thank you for the information. I appreciate it. It gets tiresome to try to link everything. I forget where I learned this or that. 

I love your blue sheltie and am somewhat jealous as mine are a bi black and a sable merle.


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## Sheltielover25

Liz said:


> Thank you for the information. I appreciate it. It gets tiresome to try to link everything. I forget where I learned this or that.
> 
> I love your blue sheltie and am somewhat jealous as mine are a bi black and a sable merle.


Thanks! Everyone thinks she's an Aussie because of her coloring...Most people comment they didn't know they came in blue merles! She's a sweet dog, but boy, she knows how to use her voice! LOL


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## meggels

Sheltielover25 said:


> It's around 45 days. A far cry from 3!
> 
> - Terrierman's Daily Dose -


Thank you  I knew it was somewhere between 30-60 days lol.

HEARTWORM FACTS, THE TRUTH ABOUT HEARTWORM

That's an interesting read as well. 


Sheltielover- curious what you do for HW since you're in a far warmer climate than I am?


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## DaViking

Sheltielover25 said:


> It's around 45 days. A far cry from 3!
> 
> - Terrierman's Daily Dose -


Those 3 days at 13°C is for the cycle to start in the first place, not to complete and become a L3 larvae. Total time from the process starts is less interesting than actual temperature. If you find yourself in a sudden heatwave or even just unnaturally hot temps for the season you better not cling to 45, 60 or whatever days. I use 13°C for 3 straight days/nights as a guide (based on known facts, see below) for when to start to worry about a preventative.

From "Seasonal Timing of Heartworm Chemoprophylaxis (Heartworm Meds) in the United States" and "Seasonality of heartworm infection and implications for chemoprophylaxis" David H. Knight, DVM, Diplomate (ACVIM), and James B. Lok, PhD:

"For development to even begin, a 
threshold of 57°F (14°C) must be exceeded. Larvae withm the 
mosquito are more cold tolerant than the intermediate host 
itself. Consequently, when the ambient temperature is below 
the developmental threshold, maturation will be only tempo- 
rarily suspended until warmer conditions resume. The critical 
denominator is the cumulative amount of heat required to 
complete the incubation. This heat requirement can be ex- 
pressed in degree days, also referred to as heartworm develop- 
ment units (HDUs) m excess of the 57°F threshold tempera- 
ture. 4 On average, a total of 234 HDUs on the Fahrenheit scale 
(130°C) are needed to support development of microfilarlae to 
transmissible infective larvae. This cumulative threshold can 
be reached in as few as 8 days when the average daily 
temperature is 86°F but take as long as a month when it is as 
low as 65°F"

My memory missed by 1°C, sorry about that. It's pointless giving an exact number of days for L1 through L3 since it's dependent on cumulative heat.

So to sum it up; It's not 45 days, not 60 days and not 8 days. It depends on cumulative temperature/degree days and it all starts (and halts) @ 57°F (14°C)

Re. the website you linked above; Yet another site which should be taken with a grain of salt since linking/referencing sources seems random at best. I can crank out 10 sites like that per day. Costing me 100 bucks in Asian copywriters and 50 bucks in template design for the lot.


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## PunkyPug

naturalfeddogs said:


> You are very closed minded. But if you choose not to even consider learning anything about natural feeding and remedies, then just don't say anything. You won't change my mind anymore than I will change yours. Just agree to.disagree, and keep your comments about it to yourself.


So I guess everyone on this forum should be forced to believe what all of y'all believe?
DaViking never started anything with any of y'all. She gave her opinion bluntly and suddenly you take offense and attack her for it. Now you have no manners. Respect the fact that everyone has their opinion and not everyone isn't going to have the same opinion as you. THIS is why several users often leave this site. Because if they don't have the same opinion as the majority here, instead of being educated, they are attacked and then they leave without even being educated.


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## Sheltielover25

meggels said:


> Sheltielover- curious what you do for HW since you're in a far warmer climate than I am?



I just feed my gang a raw diet from animals who have been grass-fed, no hormones, antibiotics and are mostly locally raised, along with filtered water and no chemicals whatsoever. I use essential oils from time to time to repel any fleas, ticks or mosquitoes. I don't really buy into the whole heart worm thing as I haven't seen very many cases where a healthy dog gets heart worms. I see lots of dogs coming into the pound who have probably spent the majority of their lives outside and been fed a diet that isn't appropriate and has been vaccinated and destroyed their immune system catching it, but I don't even know if I've even seen a case where a dog fed a proper diet and not given any chemicals is diagnosed. Two of mine have a neurological issue that prevents them from receiving any medications so it's not even an option for them. It honestly never crosses my mind or concerns me not giving them heart worm pills... I'm considerably more terrified of what those chemicals are doing on their bodies overtime than I am of the chances of them getting heart worms. The not vaccinating causes a little more concern for me because I suppose there's always the chance one of them may bite someone or something, and we plan to move abroad so I know I'm going to have to face the issue eventually, but heart worm isn't something I ever worry about. We will be in the Seattle area as of Jan '13 so I guess it really won't even be an issue then.


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## naturalfeddogs

PunkyPug said:


> So I guess everyone on this forum should be forced to believe what all of y'all believe?
> DaViking never started anything with any of y'all. She gave her opinion bluntly and suddenly you take offense and attack her for it. Now you have no manners. Respect the fact that everyone has their opinion and not everyone isn't going to have the same opinion as you. THIS is why several users often leave this site. Because if they don't have the same opinion as the majority here, instead of being educated, they are attacked and then they leave without even being educated.


She replied to Liz's post ny refering to her beliefs as."snake oil". There is no reason to put down anyone's way of life. Those of us who live a natural lifestyle may also consider traditional feeding and medicine snake oil as well, but we are not going to refer it to that because it's what they believe. That's stupid and rude. If you like traditional way of life that's fine, just as we prefer a natural lifestyle. Actually, the snake oil comment even though directed at Liz, is offensive to all here who prefer that lifestyle.


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## Liz

Hi Sheltielover

Well said. That is our stance also. I don't know what Punky Pug was talking about. We are not asking for anything other than basic respect. I agree about the healthy non medicated dogs having more resistance to heart worm. I am sure someone will chime in about a dog who got it but that is hardly representative of the millions of cases that vets talk about. 

You have to let me know when you move out here. We will have to get the herding guys together.  What area are you moving to?


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## Scarlett_O'

Sheltielover25 said:


> I just feed my gang a raw diet from animals who have been grass-fed, no hormones, antibiotics and are mostly locally raised, along with filtered water and no chemicals whatsoever. I use essential oils from time to time to repel any fleas, ticks or mosquitoes. I don't really buy into the whole heart worm thing as I haven't seen very many cases where a healthy dog gets heart worms. I see lots of dogs coming into the pound who have probably spent the majority of their lives outside and been fed a diet that isn't appropriate and has been vaccinated and destroyed their immune system catching it, but I don't even know if I've even seen a case where a dog fed a proper diet and not given any chemicals is diagnosed. Two of mine have a neurological issue that prevents them from receiving any medications so it's not even an option for them. It honestly never crosses my mind or concerns me not giving them heart worm pills... I'm considerably more terrified of what those chemicals are doing on their bodies overtime than I am of the chances of them getting heart worms. The not vaccinating causes a little more concern for me because I suppose there's always the chance one of them may bite someone or something, and we plan to move abroad so I know I'm going to have to face the issue eventually, but heart worm isn't something I ever worry about. We will be in the Seattle area as of Jan '13 so I guess it really won't even be an issue then.


You know its amazing, we had 3 dogs who grew up on the road(as did us 3 kids, but thats another story!LOL) Clara-Belle, Bonnie-Belle and Beauregard never once were given HW(sadly we didnt know better and they did get vaccines every 3 years, but again, thats another story) and they were on different "EH" food(3-ish stars where ever you look.) We lived in the South nearly every summer for 12-ish years, the years that we werent in the south we were still in places that people say need HW meds....again never given them. None of them ever tested positive for HW, even though **GASP** they didnt get the meds...and Im VERY proud to say that!

And yes, yes, let Liz and I know when you are in the area and we will have to get all the Seattle/DFC herders together!!:thumb:
Do you know what area you are coming to?


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## Sheltielover25

Scarlett_O' said:


> You know its amazing, we had 3 dogs who grew up on the road(as did us 3 kids, but thats another story!LOL) Clara-Belle, Bonnie-Belle and Beauregard never once were given HW(sadly we didnt know better and they did get vaccines every 3 years, but again, thats another story) and they were on different "EH" food(3-ish stars where ever you look.) We lived in the South nearly every summer for 12-ish years, the years that we werent in the south we were still in places that people say need HW meds....again never given them. None of them ever tested positive for HW, even though **GASP** they didnt get the meds...and Im VERY proud to say that!
> 
> And yes, yes, let Liz and I know when you are in the area and we will have to get all the Seattle/DFC herders together!!:thumb:
> Do you know what area you are coming to?


Well originally we're like we're going to live in Capitol Hill! Then we realized that's not too realistic with three dogs, we both work from home, and want to start a family next year. So we're looking at the northern suburbs... we really like Vashon Island but not sure how realistic that is since my partner wants to be somewhat close to her friend who lives in Capitol Hill. We want to be able to get a 2 bedroom house or possibly townhouse and our budget is $1500 a month.... we plan to move out there and stay in a hotel for a few weeks while we scope out areas and find a place. We're so excited as we're coming from Oklahoma so you can imagine how happy we are to be moving somewhere that our lifestyle is a little more in tune with the people around us lol


----------



## DaViking

naturalfeddogs said:


> She replied to Liz's post ny refering to her beliefs as."snake oil". There is no reason to put down anyone's way of life. Those of us who live a natural lifestyle may also consider traditional feeding and medicine snake oil as well, but we are not going to refer it to that because it's what they believe. That's stupid and rude. If you like traditional way of life that's fine, just as we prefer a natural lifestyle. Actually, the snake oil comment even though directed at Liz, is offensive to all here who prefer that lifestyle.


I really didn't want to continue this conversation but for some reason there is always someone prepared to not letting off topic personal "entertainment" die. So... Pretty much an entire world call Homeopathic medicine "snake oil" I try to live as a sustainable and natural life as possible too but I do not want anything to do with Homeopathy. You don't have to be an extremist to live a green, natural, healthy and sustainable life you know. I have absolutely nothing against natural remedies and various alternatives to western medicine but sneaking homeopathy in under a "Natural" umbrella is quite frankly offensive to me. Asking for money selling homeopathic "medicine" is offensive to me and everyone's wallet. (Don't know if Liz or anyone else here sell or promote homeopathic medicine directly so it is not directed at anyone in particular) In the last years there have been more homeopathic remedies with much greater potency (actually they do have some documented effects as opposed to homeopathic medicine) hitting the market, but it's all smoke and mirrors in an attempt to make homeopathy more palatable. These "new" remedies are simply natural formulations which have been used in various forms for centuries already, on every continent. Branding and making money off them as homeopathic remedies is offensive to me. But here's the kicker, I see and read this stuff all the time in various sections here. Do I cry "offensive" every time I read it? Do I cry "offensive" every time I see someone is talked into something that could potentially be harmful? No, I don't, I just keep on reading whatever because I know it will be a sh**storm if I comment. And so do the countless who will never return here simply because of all the drama that is sure to start if you question or challenge extremist views some here have. The second I call Homeopathic medicine "snake oil" I am called rude and offensive. See the difference?

I don't put down anyone's lifestyle so please stop it with the broken record. I hope there are more to a persons lifestyle than Homeopathy and homeopathic medicine. Jeez, ppl who call me narrow minded should really look at themselves in the mirror. Ppl who call me defensive should also take a long look at themselves in the mirror. Please stop it with attacks on my character, that is offensive to me. I have not attacked anyone's character. Calling homeopathic medicine for "snake oil" is not an attack on Liz' or anyone else' character or lifestyle. I am smarter than that. No one is defined by one thing and I have no doubt Liz is a great person. I strongly disagree with many of her views and practices but I still recognize here for the good person she is. For the record, I also agree with some of her views and opinions that is not necessarily mainstream opinions. I tried to pick her brains on one of those topics not long ago but to no avail. What can you do.

And btw, it's a he with the name of Tim, not the Dr. one, the MSE one


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## PunkyPug

Liz said:


> Hi Sheltielover
> 
> Well said. That is our stance also. I don't know what Punky Pug was talking about. We are not asking for anything other than basic respect. I agree about the healthy non medicated dogs having more resistance to heart worm. I am sure someone will chime in about a dog who got it but that is hardly representative of the millions of cases that vets talk about.
> 
> You have to let me know when you move out here. We will have to get the herding guys together.  What area are you moving to?


I'd really like to see your proof and studies that "non-medicated" dogs have more resistance to heart worms and whatever else you think your dogs are invincible to.


----------



## 1605

Scarlett_O' said:


> You know its amazing, we had 3 dogs who grew up on the road(as did us 3 kids, but thats another story!LOL) Clara-Belle, Bonnie-Belle and Beauregard never once were given HW(sadly we didnt know better and they did get vaccines every 3 years, but again, thats another story) and they were on different "EH" food(3-ish stars where ever you look.) We lived in the South nearly every summer for 12-ish years, the years that we werent in the south we were still in places that people say need HW meds....again never given them. None of them ever tested positive for HW, even though **GASP** they didnt get the meds...and Im VERY proud to say that!
> 
> And yes, yes, let Liz and I know when you are in the area and we will have to get all the Seattle/DFC herders together!!:thumb:
> Do you know what area you are coming to?


You have been very lucky. 

Since we do foster home assessments as well as GSP verification visits at the Hillsborough County AS for the Southeast GSP Rescue organization, I personally know of at least two dogs in the past 4 months that have come into the rescue system with heartworm. The local director mentioned one of them costing $400+ in medical treatment alone for this disease. So the dog has permanent (but luckily manageable) heart damage and must be on meds for life because someone didn't give them **GASP** heartworm preventative. 

BTW, I'm happy to say that last I heard the aforementioned GSP was placed with a loving & caring family & was doing very well.


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## Liz

Just FYI - I don't sell any medicines, treatments, homeopathics, herbs, supplements, etc.


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## PunkyPug

Liz said:


> Just FYI - I don't sell any medicines, treatments, homeopathics, herbs, supplements, etc.


No one said you did.


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## Liz

You know Punky Pug it is not all about you. Shock!! 

I was replying to DaViking "Don't know if Liz or anyone else here sell or promote homeopathic medicine directly "


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## Liz

Here is one study done and this is the link if you desire - this is just about vaccine damage but it is a start. 
haywardstudyonvaccines

"One control group was not vaccinated and the other group was vaccinated with a commercial multivalent vaccine at 8, 10, 12, 16, and 20 weeks of age and with a rabies vaccine at 16 weeks of age.

A definition of autoimmune disease is now necessary. In dogs as well as humans, the body sometimes forms antibodies against itself (self antigens) which can lead to diseases of the pancreas (diabetes), thyroid (Hashimoto's Disease), collagen and fibronectin (Scleroderma, Lupus),cardiolipin (Cardiomyopathy), etc. The body literally attacks itself to cause the autoimmune disease.

The vaccinated group developed significant levels of autoantibodies against: fibronectin, laminin, DNA, albumin, Cytochrome C, transferrin, cardiolipin, collagen. The responses varied among individual animals, probably reflecting genetic differences. The clinical significance of those autoantibodies remains to be determined, but speculation must be that something in the vaccines is one of the etiologies (in the genetically susceptible dog) of such diseases as Cardiomyopathy, Lupus Erythematosus, Glomerulonephritis, etc. I apologise for using these technical terms but this is a complex study and adds validity to the report."


Specific Hypotheses Tested: 

Vaccinated compared with unvaccinated Great Dane dogs have: 


1) A significantly higher serum concentration of antibodies directed against their own tissues 


2) A significantly higher serum concentration of TSH and lower concentrations of T3 and T4 hormones 


3) A significantly higher proportion of dogs with a history or clinical signs of an autoimmune disease, particularly hypothyroidism 


Homeopathic veterinarians and other holistic practitioners have maintained for some time that vaccinations do more harm than they provide benefits. Vaccinations represent a major assault on the body's immune system. Attentuated organisms or chemically killed viruses or bacteria are injected directly into the blood stream, an unnatural route of infection. This profound insult, avoiding the body's first line of defenses, and flooding the system with millions of organisms or viral particles, stresses the immune system in a way not of natures design. This insult causes irregularities and abnormalities in the immune system which then manifests as chronic diseases in animals." Dr Charles E Loops DVM 

"We see a lot of epilepsy/seizures, often after a rabies vaccination. Or dogs or cats can become aggressive for several days. Frequently, you'll see urinary tract infections in cats, often within three months after their [annual] vaccination. If you step back, open your mind and heart, you'll start to see patterns of illness post-vaccination." Dee Blanco, D.V.M (Vaccines - Are They Safe for Your Dog?) 

"Routine vaccination has adverse side-effects, either short or long term. With vaccines that are repeated year after year, the frequency and severity of these side-effects in our pets has increased dramatically. Most of the problems involve the immune system. After all, the immune system is what vaccines are designed to stimulate. But they do so in a very unnatural way that can overwhelm and confuse the immune system." Donna Starita Mehan DVM 

We worry about the research that shows that vaccinated dogs have antibodies against THEIR OWN CELLS, while a control group of un-vaccinated dogs does not. (Larry T. Glickman, DVM, "Weighing the Risks and Benefits of Vaccination," Advances in Veterinary Medicine, Vol. 41, 2001) 

I have seen while working at veterinary clinics that the majority of cases of Parvo are actually in puppies that HAVE been vaccinated. The majority of them died even with support/treatment. 

In the few cases I witnessed first hand of puppies that were not vaccinated and contracted Parvo, they all healed and lived with minimal support and treatment; their immune systems were better equipped to fight and win. 

Okay, that said, what do you think the immune system does with a virus that sets up in its cells but causes no acute symptoms? Those suppressed acute symptoms become chronic disease. And chronic disease is deeper and more serious than an acute disease. 
Dr.Jeanette (Jeannie) Thomason 

There - some information. All vets.


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## Liz

Here are studies on feeding and quotes from vets.


Dog and Cat Nutrition: The Optimum Natural Healthy Diet 
A growing number of vets are stating that processed pet food is the main cause of illness and premature death in the modern dog and cat. In December 1995, the British Journal of Small Animal Practice published a paper contending that processed pet food suppresses the immune system and leads to liver, kidney, heart, and other diseases. This research, initially conducted by Dr Tom Lonsdale, was researched further by the Australian Veterinary Association and proven to be correct.

Dr. T.J. Dunn D.V.M."There is ample proof that today's pet dogs and cats do not thrive on cheap, packaged, corn-based pet foods. Dogs and cats are primarily meat eaters; to fill them up with grain-based processed dry foods that barely meet minimum daily nutrient requirements has proven to be a mistake."

Dr. Francis M. Pottenger's nutritional studies have shown that a regular diet of cooked or canned foods causes the development of chronic degenerative diseases and premature mortality.

Dr. Alfred Plechner, D.V.M "The most common and most visible symptoms of nutritionally caused deficiencies are allergies of one kind or another. Because many commercial foods are woefully deficient in key nutrients, the long-term effect of these foods makes the dog hypersensitive to its environment. . . . [It's a dinosaur effect. Animals are being programmed for disaster, for extinction. Many of them are biochemical cripples with defective adrenal glands unable to manufacture adequate Cortisol, a hormone vital for health and resistance to disease." Allergies can be, and often are, unrecognized deficiency diseases. 

Dr. William Pollak D.V.M. "Recent studies have shown processed foods to be a factor in increasing the numbers of pets suffering from cancer, arthritis, obesity, dental disease, and heart disease. Dull or unhealthy coats are a common problem with cats and dogs, and poor diet is usually the cause, according to many veterinarians and breeders. "Dogs, cats, and other animals live for years on foods that come out of bags, cans and boxes. But do these foods promote health? If they did, our companion animals would enjoy long, happy lives free of arthritis, hip dysplasia, eye problems, ear problems, fleas and other parasites, gum disease, lick granulomas, thyroid imbalances, skin and coat problems, personality disorders, birth defects, breeding problems, diabetes, cancer and other major and minor illnesses. Before World War II, most North Americans fed their pets raw bones and table scraps. Today, everyone uses convenience foods, and pet food companies are industry giants. Diet isn't the only thing that has changed. So has life expectancy, with the life span of many breeds now less than half what it was two or three decades ago. Skin and coat problems are so common that we accept them as unavoidable, and today's vets routinely treat conditions that used to be unusual or even rare." Learn more: The Poisons in Pet Food

William Pollak D.V.M. - "The results of a clinical trial suggest that 74.7% of common diseases in dogs and 63% of common diseases in cats can be eliminated without medical intervention over a period of one year with proper diet modifications and an understanding of the healing process as exhibited through healing episodes. Approaching disease from the perspective of health is the most powerful means of eliminating disease." (clinical trial) 

Vaccinosis Dr. Pat Bradley, DVM, Conway, USA - "The most common problems I see that are directly related to vaccines on a day to day basis are ear or skin conditions, such as chronic discharges and itching. I also see behaviour problems such as fearfulness or aggression. Often guardians will report that these begin shortly after vaccination, and are exacerbated with every vaccine. In a more general and frightening context, I see the overall health and longevity of animals deteriorating. The bodies of most animals have a tremendous capacity to detoxify poisons, but they do have a limit. I think we often exceed that limit and over-whelm the body's immune system function with toxins from vaccines, poor quality foods, insecticides, environmental toxins, etc. This is why we've seen such a dramatic increase in allergies, organ failures, and behaviour problems.
Dr. Pat Bradley, DVM, Conway, USA - "The most common problems I see that are directly related to vaccines on a day to day basis are ear or skin conditions, such as chronic discharges and itching. I also see behaviour problems such as fearfulness or aggression. Often guardians will report that these begin shortly after vaccination, and are exacerbated with every vaccine. In a more general and frightening context, I see the overall health and longevity of animals deteriorating. The bodies of most animals have a tremendous capacity to detoxify poisons, but they do have a limit. I think we often exceed that limit and over-whelm the body's immune system function with toxins from vaccines, poor quality foods, insecticides, environmental toxins, etc. This is why we've seen such a dramatic increase in allergies, organ failures, and behaviour problems."

Since everything I have posted will probably be dismissed I am done. You asked for information here is some. Enjoy


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## Sheltielover25

PunkyPug said:


> I'd really like to see your proof and studies that "non-medicated" dogs have more resistance to heart worms and whatever else you think your dogs are invincible to.


By this same token, do you have studies that show heart worm medicine is effective? Do you have studies that show the long-term effects of giving your animal poison month and after month? If heart worm medicine is proven to work, which I have no clue because I could careless as my animals will never be given that stuff, then you'll never convince me it isn't leading to other severe issues. Sure, let's rule out heart worms but give dogs liver failure! My proof is based on the dogs I've seen come into the rescues I've worked with and based on the dogs coming into the animal shelters with heart worms. Anyway, I never said it's 100% effective, just like nothing in life is 100% effective. My point is by putting an animal in their natural state, it helps detract things such as fleas getting on them and other ailments that effect animals who aren't given such care. For example, my raw-fed, unvaccinated, unpoisoned dogs haven't had fleas in two years. I live in a hot climate and they spend time outside playing and on walks. All the dogs around them, and cats, have fleas.... but they prefer not to go after my guys. That tells me something right there. It's just common sense if you put the body in the most natural state you can, the less likely you are to be affected by such things. This applies to humans and animals. The majority of the diseases animals and humans face these days have to do with man-made products causing the body to not work as it's supposed to. I'll take my chances and deal with heart worms should it ever be an issue.

On another note, I know my dogs aren't immune to things as I have two dogs with vaccine damage, so therefor, I'm well aware they're not immune to things.


----------



## Scarlett_O'

SubMariner said:


> You have been very lucky.
> 
> Since we do foster home assessments as well as GSP verification visits at the Hillsborough County AS for the Southeast GSP Rescue organization, I personally know of at least two dogs in the past 4 months that have come into the rescue system with heartworm. The local director mentioned one of them costing $400+ in medical treatment alone for this disease. So the dog has permanent (but luckily manageable) heart damage and must be on meds for life because someone didn't give them **GASP** heartworm preventative.
> 
> BTW, I'm happy to say that last I heard the aforementioned GSP was placed with a loving & caring family & was doing very well.


My point is that its a crap shoot.
(Oh and BTW, for anyone who wondered, Clara Belle,the Basset,lived to be almost 13 and passed because of cancer, Beauregard, a Lhasa, lived to be just over 14 and passed away from back injuries and Bonnie-Belle, also a Lhasa, passed away just last month at 16.5 because of nothing but "old age".)


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## 1605

Liz said:


> Here is one study done and this is the link if you desire - this is just about vaccine damage but it is a start.
> haywardstudyonvaccines
> 
> "One control group was not vaccinated and the other group was vaccinated with a commercial multivalent vaccine at 8, 10, 12, 16, and 20 weeks of age and with a rabies vaccine at 16 weeks of age.
> 
> A definition of autoimmune disease is now necessary. In dogs as well as humans, the body sometimes forms antibodies against itself (self antigens) which can lead to diseases of the pancreas (diabetes), thyroid (Hashimoto's Disease), collagen and fibronectin (Scleroderma, Lupus),cardiolipin (Cardiomyopathy), etc. The body literally attacks itself to cause the autoimmune disease.
> 
> The vaccinated group developed significant levels of autoantibodies against: fibronectin, laminin, DNA, albumin, Cytochrome C, transferrin, cardiolipin, collagen. The responses varied among individual animals, probably reflecting genetic differences. The clinical significance of those autoantibodies remains to be determined, but speculation must be that something in the vaccines is one of the etiologies (in the genetically susceptible dog) of such diseases as Cardiomyopathy, Lupus Erythematosus, Glomerulonephritis, etc. I apologise for using these technical terms but this is a complex study and adds validity to the report."
> 
> 
> Specific Hypotheses Tested:
> 
> Vaccinated compared with unvaccinated Great Dane dogs have:
> 
> 
> 1) A significantly higher serum concentration of antibodies directed against their own tissues
> 
> 
> 2) A significantly higher serum concentration of TSH and lower concentrations of T3 and T4 hormones
> 
> 
> 3) A significantly higher proportion of dogs with a history or clinical signs of an autoimmune disease, particularly hypothyroidism
> 
> 
> Homeopathic veterinarians and other holistic practitioners have maintained for some time that vaccinations do more harm than they provide benefits. Vaccinations represent a major assault on the body's immune system. Attentuated organisms or chemically killed viruses or bacteria are injected directly into the blood stream, an unnatural route of infection. This profound insult, avoiding the body's first line of defenses, and flooding the system with millions of organisms or viral particles, stresses the immune system in a way not of natures design. This insult causes irregularities and abnormalities in the immune system which then manifests as chronic diseases in animals." Dr Charles E Loops DVM
> 
> "We see a lot of epilepsy/seizures, often after a rabies vaccination. Or dogs or cats can become aggressive for several days. Frequently, you'll see urinary tract infections in cats, often within three months after their [annual] vaccination. If you step back, open your mind and heart, you'll start to see patterns of illness post-vaccination." Dee Blanco, D.V.M (Vaccines - Are They Safe for Your Dog?)
> 
> "Routine vaccination has adverse side-effects, either short or long term. With vaccines that are repeated year after year, the frequency and severity of these side-effects in our pets has increased dramatically. Most of the problems involve the immune system. After all, the immune system is what vaccines are designed to stimulate. But they do so in a very unnatural way that can overwhelm and confuse the immune system." Donna Starita Mehan DVM
> 
> We worry about the research that shows that vaccinated dogs have antibodies against THEIR OWN CELLS, while a control group of un-vaccinated dogs does not. (Larry T. Glickman, DVM, "Weighing the Risks and Benefits of Vaccination," Advances in Veterinary Medicine, Vol. 41, 2001)
> 
> I have seen while working at veterinary clinics that the majority of cases of Parvo are actually in puppies that HAVE been vaccinated. The majority of them died even with support/treatment.
> 
> In the few cases I witnessed first hand of puppies that were not vaccinated and contracted Parvo, they all healed and lived with minimal support and treatment; their immune systems were better equipped to fight and win.
> 
> Okay, that said, what do you think the immune system does with a virus that sets up in its cells but causes no acute symptoms? Those suppressed acute symptoms become chronic disease. And chronic disease is deeper and more serious than an acute disease.
> Dr.Jeanette (Jeannie) Thomason
> 
> There - some information. All vets.


I tried to use the link @ the bottom of the information, but it was no longer valid. Is there another one? 

Also, do you know if there is any more recent data that has been done on other breeds? 

Finally, the meat of the matter is this (bolding & red colour added by me):

*Conclusions *

​As in two previous studies we conducted, we confirmed that vaccinated dogs when compared with non-vaccinated dogs have a higher concentration of antibodies in their serum directed against bovine proteins such as thyroglobulin and fibronectin. These antibodies are probably produced in response to contaminants from fetal calf serum commonly used to make canine vaccines. These anti-bovine antibodies probably then cross-react with a dog’s own thyroglobulin and fibronectin, resulting in detectable concentrations of autoantibodies in their serum. *It would be difficult to design a study in pet dogs to prove this process of cross-reaction between bovine and canine proteins actually causes clinical signs of autoimmune disease in vaccinated dogs. * *There were too many differences between the vaccinated and unvaccinated Great Danes in the present study to further explore the clinical consequences of vaccine-related auto-antibodies produced against fibronectin or thyroglobulin.*

A lot of "probablies" in there too.


​
​


----------



## Liz

I agree - they would probably have to study litter mates for many years to be totally conclusive and have many litter to study to be effective. 

I was just grabbing the first studies I had - I will try to find more current studies.


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## DaViking

Liz said:


> Since everything I have posted will probably be dismissed I am done. You asked for information here is some. Enjoy


Just for the future. If you are talking to someone in particular could you quote or at least do an @. Sometimes it's a bit difficult to grasp what your point is since there is a lack of context.


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## Liz

Daviking - sure , I will try to remember


----------



## PunkyPug

Liz said:


> You know Punky Pug it is not all about you. Shock!!
> 
> I was replying to DaViking "Don't know if Liz or anyone else here sell or promote homeopathic medicine directly "


ROFL
I wasn't acting like it was "all about me". I find it hilarious that every time I ask for proof or studies of your claims you all get defensive.


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## Liz

I just provided two pages of studies and vet commentary. I don't see how that is defensive.


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## Sheltielover25

I have all the proof in the world vaccinating animals comes with a high risk and one I consider much higher than the risk of contracting said diseases. My dogs developed Cerebral Ataxia, one 3 weeks after their puppy shot, and another 6 weeks after his rabies, they're littermates so guessing something in their DNA made them more susceptible.
Videos of their ataxia:
VID_20110509_134857.mp4 video by maddy_ciccone18 - Photobucket
MVI_3801.mp4 video by maddy_ciccone18 - Photobucket
MVI_3803.mp4 video by maddy_ciccone18 - Photobucket

Studies on on ataxia and vaccines, granted they're humans but still.
Ataxia after Vaccination in United States, a Report from the CDC/FDA Vaccine Adverse Event Reporting System [1990-2010] (P05.016) -- Sheikh et al. 78 (1001): P05.016 -- Neurology
[Acute cerebellar ataxia and facial palsy aft... [No To Hattatsu. 1989] - PubMed - NCBI
Flu Vaccine Side Effects

So when you take your pet into get vaccinated, I pray this doesn't happen to them. Once you vaccinate them... there's no way to undo it.


----------



## PunkyPug

Sheltielover25 said:


> By this same token, do you have studies that show heart worm medicine is effective? Do you have studies that show the long-term effects of giving your animal poison month and after month? If heart worm medicine is proven to work, which I have no clue because I could careless as my animals will never be given that stuff, then you'll never convince me it isn't leading to other severe issues. Sure, let's rule out heart worms but give dogs liver failure! My proof is based on the dogs I've seen come into the rescues I've worked with and based on the dogs coming into the animal shelters with heart worms. Anyway, I never said it's 100% effective, just like nothing in life is 100% effective. My point is by putting an animal in their natural state, it helps detract things such as fleas getting on them and other ailments that effect animals who aren't given such care. For example, my raw-fed, unvaccinated, unpoisoned dogs haven't had fleas in two years. I live in a hot climate and they spend time outside playing and on walks. All the dogs around them, and cats, have fleas.... but they prefer not to go after my guys. That tells me something right there. It's just common sense if you put the body in the most natural state you can, the less likely you are to be affected by such things. This applies to humans and animals. The majority of the diseases animals and humans face these days have to do with man-made products causing the body to not work as it's supposed to. I'll take my chances and deal with heart worms should it ever be an issue.
> 
> On another note, I know my dogs aren't immune to things as I have two dogs with vaccine damage, so therefor, I'm well aware they're not immune to things.


I don't give my dogs poisons. I find that the ACV I give them every morning keeps biting bugs off them.



Liz said:


> I just provided two pages of studies and vet commentary. I don't see how that is defensive.


The comment you made earlier was clearly defensive.
Also, I asked for STUDIES not CLAIMS. And since 90% of vets sell and push vaccines, and poisons like heartworm meds and flea topical, I find their claims not worthy to be considered. That is, unless they are vets that actually look out for their patients well being and not making money.


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## Sheltielover25

PunkyPug said:


> I don't give my dogs poisons. I find that the ACV I give them every morning keeps biting bugs off them.


I'm glad you don't give them poisons such as heart worm, flea, or vaccines. There are many alternatives out there so it's nice to know people think outside the box and use safer, non-toxic alternatives.



T


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## Liz

haywardstudyonvaccines
www.vet.purdue.edu/epi/gdhstudy.htm.
Dangers of Vaccinations
ADVERSE EFFECTS OF ADJUVANTS IN VACCINES by Viera Scheibner
Science of Vaccine Damage
Dogs Naturally Magazine » Lyme Disease And Lyme Vaccine Disease
Purdue Vaccination Study


Here are some studies.


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## Makovach

PunkyPug said:


> I don't give my dogs poisons. I find that the ACV I give them every morning keeps biting bugs off them.
> 
> 
> 
> The comment you made earlier was clearly defensive.
> Also, I asked for STUDIES not CLAIMS. And since 90% of vets sell and push vaccines, and poisons like heartworm meds and flea topical, I find their claims not worthy to be considered. That is, unless they are vets that actually look out for their patients well being and not making money.


Punky- You bounce back and forth and change your mind millions of times on feeding kibble v.s. raw, Using natural things, v.s chemicls and thats fine, but don't be badgering other people for the way they live when they have spent years researching it when you still jump the fence back and forth. 

With ALL due respect. If you want studies, Why don't you go find it your self? Why don't you use the computer for something other than trying to start a war? Why does it matter to you what people do with their lives/animals. 

With all due respect, I can't stand the way "people" jump in and start adding fuel to a fire. Is it for fun? Is it to get a rise out of people? Is it to make yourself feel smarter and superior? Because thats probably not going to happen.

There is more stuff on vaccines and such being "great" because there is money behind it. Who wants to pay out the butt for studies that are not going to cause anyone to make money? 

Yall are a bunch of kids and need to grow up and stop being so dang snarky and rude. Calling others rude doesn't justify your behavior.


----------



## DaViking

*@Liz*; Thanks for the two pages of various quotes etc. Most of it was vaccine related with a few mix-ins of processed food thoughts. I won't be saying much on vaccine side of things because, lo and behold, I don't think we are that far apart in views actually. I have some unpleasant first hand experience with having to vaccinate some Scandinavian dogs so they would be admissible into North America. Vaccinations was done in Norway but to N. American specifications. In some circles this is done all the time with very few issues but our story was not that uncomplicated. I do vaccinate but are very restrictive and particular these days. We'r not fully aligned, just partly  In light of that I was a bit bummed out that you didn't want to share some of your knowledge surrounding the whole complex of easing puppies and young dogs into a big bad world in a more natural way (ref older thread). Maybe some other day?

I'm a bit short on time right now (I could say I have to work but it's really sports and I need to get my order in for processed food for the guys, lol) but I'll have a look at the quotes re. food you provided.


----------



## Liz

DaViking,

To be honest I declined because I did not want just anyone thinking you could take a pup with a low immune system, previously vaccinated, flooded with topicals and fed a less than stellar diet which can also inhibit immune response to decide to not vaccinate or to take a pup and do all of the above with the exception of vaccines and hope their dogs do well. My pups are from non vaccinated, raw fed and naturally raised parents and I am sure of their immune system and overall health. I know my dogs. It is the same when someone decided to try a "natural remedy". They don't realize you can't pick and choose all the time and lifestyle choices have a huge affect on responses to particular remedies. 

When my raw fed bitch had open pyo the only answer I got from vets was spay her she will be sterile anyway. I finally reached my mentors and they walked me through treating my girl. She just delivered 3 beautiful pups. I would not advocate this treatment plan to another person because I would not be sure of their dog's ability to respond to the treatment plan. I knew my girl had nothing in her system to compromise treatment and it really was the best shot at saving her as the vets only gave her a 25% chance of survival with a spay. It was tedious and at times very tiring but very worthwhile. 

I would one day love to sit with you and discuss things but I don't feel comfortable on a open forum because people do what they read without fully understanding the ramification and risks involved. 

I understand about the vaccinating - I am currently working on details for an AI of a sheltie bitch because the male I want to breed her to is in Canada and neither of us want to vaccinate our dogs for a breeding.  It is the U.S. side which is causing issues. Though I prefer natural I guess it will be an AI this time.


----------



## PunkyPug

Makovach said:


> Punky- You bounce back and forth and change your mind millions of times on feeding kibble v.s. raw, Using natural things, v.s chemicls and thats fine, but don't be badgering other people for the way they live when they have spent years researching it when you still jump the fence back and forth.
> 
> With ALL due respect. If you want studies, Why don't you go find it your self? Why don't you use the computer for something other than trying to start a war? Why does it matter to you what people do with their lives/animals.
> 
> With all due respect, I can't stand the way "people" jump in and start adding fuel to a fire. Is it for fun? Is it to get a rise out of people? Is it to make yourself feel smarter and superior? Because thats probably not going to happen.
> 
> There is more stuff on vaccines and such being "great" because there is money behind it. Who wants to pay out the butt for studies that are not going to cause anyone to make money?
> 
> Yall are a bunch of kids and need to grow up and stop being so dang snarky and rude. Calling others rude doesn't justify your behavior.


I don't bounce back in forth.
I left the whole side of giving my dog chemicals because I'd rather not fill her with poison. If I wouldn't do the same to myself, why do it to my dog?
I mingled with the idea of feeding RAW. I wanted to feed RAW but my resources don't allow me too. I'm not going to be either paying **** ton just for 10lbs of meat or buying several lbs of meat that I CANNOT store especially when I cannot find someone to use the some odd lbs left over that i cannot store.

Also, I cannot count the times I HAVE gone and looked for studies. There IS no studies that prove vaccines are more harm than good. Only claims. You need a controlled environment to prove this such n such vaccine is causing this such n such issue. What everyone fails to see is WHY bash the whole thing when you see no prove that their doing more harm than good? That's like bashing a brand of kibble because your dog did horrible on it while other dogs are doing great on it.


----------



## meggels

Punky- if you view these things as poison, I don't understand why you are asking for proof that these things are bad? It seems like you're arguing against your own stance...


----------



## Sheltielover25

PunkyPug said:


> I don't bounce back in forth.
> I left the whole side of giving my dog chemicals because I'd rather not fill her with poison. If I wouldn't do the same to myself, why do it to my dog?
> I mingled with the idea of feeding RAW. I wanted to feed RAW but my resources don't allow me too. I'm not going to be either paying a **** ton just for 10lbs of meat or buying several lbs of meat that I CANNOT store especially when I cannot find someone to use the some odd lbs left over that i cannot store.
> 
> Also, I cannot count the times I HAVE gone and looked for studies. There IS no studies that prove vaccines are more harm than good. Only claims. You need a controlled environment to prove this such n such vaccine is causing this such n such issue. What everyone fails to see is WHY bash the whole thing when you see no prove that their doing more harm than good? That's like bashing a brand of kibble because your dog did horrible on it while other dogs are doing great on it.


Not to be rude, but newsflash: there isn't going to be a study showing vaccines cause damage, or showing these toxins are harmful. Do you understand how much money the vaccine industry brings in? We're talking billions and billions. That means the manufacturers are running the show. If there's any sort of "study" done most likely it's going to be funded by someone tied to vaccines in one way or another. With that being said, there are some studies out there on humans you can find and read to get an idea of the damage they do. You can study how the body works and then put two and two together and see why trying to gain immunity in such ways such causes damage. You can look at studies on the known carcinogens like formaldehyde and then carry that over into vaccines. You can look at the other ingredients and pick them apart. Same for the flea toxins and such. You have to do your own studies on these things because the big guys are running the show and they're not going let a study that in anyway puts their vaccines or their toxins in in an unfavorable light. Even the university studies are funded by the same companies who produce the vaccines and profit from them. You realize they're the ones supplying all the medical lab equipment, influencing what textbooks they use, and so on. Also, just listen to people around you. Hear the stories of their animals getting sick, see the increase in diseases and such, and look at the dogs who don't get such treatment and notice how they don't have allergies, or they aren't overweight, or they don't have rotten teeth. When you're not on the profitable side of the fence, you're responsible for doing your own research and studying the people/animals around you and seeing whose healthier and mimic what they do.

And as far as bashing all kibble because your dog did bad on it -- you can bash all kibble because unless you're feeding ZiwiPeak, you're feeding processed chemical-ridden food. Even Orijen uses synthetic vitamins, and while not from China, it's still not the correct way for them to get their nutrients. They're not designed, as no living thing is, to get their nutrients from something made in a lab. So therefor, yes, all kibble is inferior and is not the proper way they should be getting their nutrients.


----------



## Makovach

meggels said:


> Punky- if you view these things as poison, I don't understand why you are asking for proof that these things are bad? It seems like you're arguing against your own stance...


Thank you! Glad I wasn't the only one wondering this!


----------



## PunkyPug

Makovach said:


> Thank you! Glad I wasn't the only one wondering this!





meggels said:


> Punky- if you view these things as poison, I don't understand why you are asking for proof that these things are bad? It seems like you're arguing against your own stance...


I view them as posions via their INGREDIENTS.
I ask for studies because nearly all of you bash these products and claim they do harm. Yet you have no proof. Just like I said before, you are doing the equivalent of an owner bashing a kibble brand because her dog did horribly on it. EVEN tho there are several other dogs doing just perfectly fine on it.


----------



## RedneckCowgirl

PunkyPug said:


> EVEN tho there are several other dogs doing just perfectly fine on it.


I don't think that* any* dog does fine on kibble. I think that a lot of owners see what they want to see when it comes to their dog doing well on it. Its like when I human eats fast food and takes TONS of vitamins and supplements. That crappy processed stuff is still in the way. Its much better to just get the vitamins and such from good fresh foods just like it is for dogs to eat raw.


----------



## PunkyPug

RedneckCowgirl said:


> I don't think that* any* dog does fine on kibble. I think that a lot of owners see what they want to see when it comes to their dog doing well on it. Its like when I human eats fast food and takes TONS of vitamins and supplements. That crappy processed stuff is still in the way. Its much better to just get the vitamins and such from good fresh foods just like it is for dogs to eat raw.


That's your view.
I was giving an example. Not stating a fact or opinion.


----------



## Makovach

PunkyPug said:


> I view them as posions via their INGREDIENTS.
> I ask for studies because nearly all of you bash these products and claim they do harm. Yet you have no proof. Just like I said before, you are doing the equivalent of an owner bashing a kibble brand because her dog did horribly on it. EVEN tho there are several other dogs doing just perfectly fine on it.


When two of my dogs have consecutive siezuers after receiving vaccinations/HW meds or flea meds, I pretty sure that I don't need any studys to prove that it causes harm. When my sister's dogs break out in hives and loose their fur every year after recieving their vaccinations, That kind of clears it up. When my friends dog was partially paralized with in hours after being given vaccinations, That kind of answers my question as to weather or not vaccinations are harmful. I know of too many stories as I have stated to fall into giving vaccinations. Life lessons you could say. When you jump off a bridge and break your leg, you probably shouldn't do it again.


----------



## RedneckCowgirl

Moose breaks out in hives too. When we first got Laddie from the shelter she was 100% healthy, until they gave her the bordatella vaccine. A week later, guess who had kennel cough? Every dog I've ever had that has been vaccinated have had major flu like symptoms for a week or so after being vaccinated. 

Honestly, its just like when someone asks for proof of benefits of raw in the way of studies. There are none because there is no money in it. But anecdotal proof rings plenty loud enough for me.


----------



## RedneckCowgirl

PunkyPug said:


> That's your view.
> I was giving an example. Not stating a fact or opinion.


No. Its fact. Raw might not be best for every owner, but it IS right for every dog. Every. Single. One


----------



## meggels

PunkyPug said:


> I view them as posions via their INGREDIENTS.
> I ask for studies because nearly all of you bash these products and claim they do harm. Yet you have no proof. Just like I said before, you are doing the equivalent of an owner bashing a kibble brand because her dog did horribly on it. EVEN tho there are several other dogs doing just perfectly fine on it.


Ok, but you do view them as poisons...so you feel the same as the people bashing them. What are your reasons for not using them?

Again, it just doesn't make sense, because you are arguing against your own stance.


----------



## naturalfeddogs

PunkyPug said:


> I view them as posions via their INGREDIENTS.
> I ask for studies because nearly all of you bash these products and claim they do harm. Yet you have no proof. Just like I said before, you are doing the equivalent of an owner bashing a kibble brand because her dog did horribly on it. EVEN tho there are several other dogs doing just perfectly fine on it.


The ingredients are what make them poison. What else would make them poison?


----------



## InkedMarie

RedneckCowgirl said:


> No. Its fact. Raw might not be best for every owner, but it IS right for every dog. Every. Single. One


I think I agree with this and I don't feed PMR, just pre made for one meal.


----------



## PunkyPug

RedneckCowgirl said:


> No. Its fact. Raw might not be best for every owner, but it IS right for every dog. Every. Single. One


Again!
I was stating an EXAMPLE.


----------



## Nana52

I wonder if the OP's poor dog is doing okay.


----------



## 1605

Liz said:


> haywardstudyonvaccines
> www.vet.purdue.edu/epi/gdhstudy.htm.
> Dangers of Vaccinations
> ADVERSE EFFECTS OF ADJUVANTS IN VACCINES by Viera Scheibner
> Science of Vaccine Damage
> Dogs Naturally Magazine » Lyme Disease And Lyme Vaccine Disease
> Purdue Vaccination Study


Ok, this is going to be a fairly lengthy reply, so please bear with me.

1) The first two links do not work. So I can’t really tell where they go. However, they appear to be the same ones from your earlier post, which I believe lead back to the Perdue Study. I will address the Perdue study at the end.

2) “Dangers of Vaccinations” – is basically a series of anecdotal testimonies with no objective research. It resides on a website that also has sections devoted to “Spirit Sightings” and “Spiritual Readings”, “Crystal Healing” and “Animal Spirit Communications”. They also sell a variety of products including “advanced bimolecular supplements”.

3) “Adverse Effects of Adjuvant in Vaccines by Viera Scheibner” resides on a junk science website which features these kinds of books:
_“9/11: Enemies Foreign & Domestic…Secret Evidence Censored from the Official Record Proves Traitors Aided Israel in Attacking the USA”_. The cover illustration features the Presidential Seal of the US with the Star of David prominently displayed over the Eagle’s head. From the introduction: “….The truth is that the attacks on 9-11 were perpetrated by Israel, aided and abetted by high officials in the U.S. Government….”
_“Solving the Mystery of Babylon The Great … Tracking the Beast from the Synagogue to the Vatican”. _….”The Jews could not change the true church of Christ, but the Jews succeeded in creating a false church, a heathen church, a church that appeared to follow Christ but was in fact an antichrist church. That antichrist church is the Roman Catholic Church….”

The article by Ms. Scheibner goes to great length to describe, in lush technical jargon, the history of what goes into vaccines, much of which is no longer valid. In the end the author opines “Vaccination procedures are a highly politically motivated non-science, whose practitioners are only interested in injecting multitudes of vaccines without much interest or care as to their effects. Data collection on reactions to vaccines is only paid lip service, and the obvious ineffectiveness of vaccines to prevent diseases is glossed over.” A quick “Google” of Ms. Sheibner yielded the fact that she is a retired Micropaleontologist whose career was actually in the Dept of Mineral Resources in Australia. There is no mention of her having any training in any applied science which would lead credence to her assertions. More about her here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Viera_Scheibner

4) “Science of Vaccine Damage” – goes back to the Purdue study. 

5) “Dogs Naturally Magazine – Lyme Disease & Lyme Vaccine”. I frankly don’t know of anyone who actually uses this vaccine, despite being an active member of the hunting dog community who would probably have the dogs with the highest potential exposure to this disease. Of the several references I have found on websites like Vetstreet, they are not even pushing the vaccine, stating that “The Lyme vaccine is not necessarily recommended for all dogs. Ask your veterinarian about the risk of Lyme disease where you live and whether the Lyme vaccine is recommended for your dog.”

However, again, I am unimpressed by the “science” in this article, and find this passage very suspicious: “Lyme vaccines were removed from the human market because they failed to perform the proper safety studies prior to release and because of the numerous adverse events that followed the vaccine, some resulting even in death. Safety studies that evaluate the risk of carcinogenicity, teratogenicity, genetic damage, autoimmune disease, and immune mediated disease from vaccination are non-existent.” Which I translate as “there are all these problems which I believe come from these vaccines but there is no empirical data to back me up, so it must be a plot to keep the truth from the general public.” In actuality the human vaccine was removed from the market in 2002 due to lack of demand http://www.immunizationinfo.org/vaccines/lyme-disease)


6) Purdue Vaccination Study AKA “Vaccine-Induced Autoimmunity in the Dog” Yes, THE study that everyone keeps quoting, yet not quite quoting. I actually read the study. The conclusions (my emphasis in red):Although the pathogenic significance of the vaccine-induced autoantibodies is still unclear, there are a number of ways to prevent their induction. Not vaccinating dogs is not a viable option because the benefits of vaccination clearly outweigh the still uncertain risks of immune-related disease. However, since bovine serum components in the vaccine may be responsible for the majority of autoantibodies, elimination of these bovine components may avoid this problem…. New generations of vaccines, especially naked DNA vaccines, are free of serum components, and these should not include autoantibodies. A recent study in mice indicates that DNA vaccination does not induce or accelerate autoimmune disease (Mer et al, 1997). Finally mucosal vaccines are less likely to induce auto antibodies than parenterally administered vaccines. Depending on the formulation of the vaccine, soluble serum components are less likely to be absorbed via the mucosal surface, and, in fact, may induce tolerance instead of autoantibodies (Weiner at al., 1994).

 In conclusion, we have demonstrated that vaccination of dogs using a routine protocol and commonly used vaccines, induces autoantibodies. The autoantibody response appears to be antigen driven, probably directed against bovine antigens that contaminate vaccines as a result of the cell culture process and/or as stabilizers. The pathological significance of these autoantibodies has yet been determined.

​To summarize, this 1999 study does NOT support the anti-vaccine movement. While the paper seems to indicate that there are certain components in vaccines which MAY trigger autoantibodies, it also puts forward several ideas as to how to re-formulate vaccines so that these possible triggers are no longer an issue. (Which may or may not have been implemented in present day vaccines.)

However, ultimately their research is inconclusive as they admit that although autoantibodies are present, they have no idea what that fact actually means.

Respectfully,


----------



## 1605

RedneckCowgirl said:


> No. Its fact. Raw might not be best for every owner, but it IS right for every dog. Every. Single. One


In. Your. Humble. Opinion.

Please, let's stop this already. No owner worth their salt is "deluding themselves" or "seeing what they want to see" when it comes to the appearance & health of their beloved family member, AKA their dog. Either the dog is thriving, or it's not. And if yours are happy/healthy/thriving on your regimen and mine are happy/healthy/thriving on mine, NO ONE has the right to demonize the other for what they are doing.


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## RedneckCowgirl

SubMariner said:


> Please, let's stop this already. No owner worth their salt is "deluding themselves" or "seeing what they want to see" when it comes to the appearance & health of their beloved family member, AKA their dog. Either the dog is thriving, or it's not


I can name at least one from this forum off the top of my head who does, probably more if I'd actually gotten any sleep last night. 

And exactly. Either the dog thrives or it doesn't, and I have yet to see a dog thrive on kibble. And trust me, I have been around LOTS of dogs. More than the average person


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## DaViking

SubMariner said:


> Please, let's stop this already. No owner worth their salt is "deluding themselves" or "seeing what they want to see" when it comes to the appearance & health of their beloved family member





RedneckCowgirl said:


> I can name at least one from this forum off the top of my head who does, probably more if I'd actually gotten any sleep last night.


Would you be so kind and share with us who?


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## RedneckCowgirl

DaViking said:


> Would you be so kind and share with us who?


I'm sure if you did a quick forum search you would find many threads by this person talking about switching, giving it a few days then giving up and saying that the dog does better on kibble. Only to post the same thing the next month.


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## GoingPostal

SubMariner said:


> 5) “Dogs Naturally Magazine – Lyme Disease & Lyme Vaccine”_. I frankly don’t know of anyone who actually uses this vaccine, despite being an active member of the hunting dog community who would probably have the dogs with the highest potential exposure to this diseas_e. Of the several references I have found on websites like Vetstreet, they are not even pushing the vaccine, stating that “The Lyme vaccine is not necessarily recommended for all dogs. Ask your veterinarian about the risk of Lyme disease where you live and whether the Lyme vaccine is recommended for your dog.”




Really? It is heavily pushed by both local vets where I live, they include it as part of their "normal" shots, they also give giardia and lepto to every dog they can, most around here don't question it. Even my out of town vet tried to get me to do lymes.


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## meggels

Oh boy, this argument never ends well lol.


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## Caty M

C'mon, no passive aggressive remarks about other DFCers, please. Keep personal vendettas and such off the boards.

As for the raw vs kibble debate, it never ends. Never will. I personally feed raw and love it, but it's not for everyone and dogs can thrive off several types of feeding whether it be raw, homecooked or kibble. They can also do really crappy on any of the aforementioned types. We welcome all here, it's not just a raw forum. What you feed doesn't make or break you as a dog owner.

And this probably doesn't make sense, it's 7 am and I'm on my phone, which is never good lol


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## 1605

GoingPostal said:


> Really? It is heavily pushed by both local vets where I live, they include it as part of their "normal" shots, they also give giardia and lepto to every dog they can, most around here don't question it. Even my out of town vet tried to get me to do lymes.


Obviously it's a local thing. As I said before, none of the vets in our area mention anything about lyme vaccines, nor do any other trialers with whom I've come in contact with talk about it. hwell:


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## Brian 6

When I first graduated from vet school I had a breeder who thought like this and did not vaccinate any of her dogs. I tried my best to convince her explaining that when people came in to buy her pups they might be carrying parvo from a pet shop etc... Even though she asked people not to visit any other dogs before seeing hers, people are busy so they cheat. On a saturday they want to see a number of pups to choose from.

She had been a breeder for 30 and had around 40 dogs. Long story short. Within 1-2 years she had a parvo outbreak and lost ALL her dogs!

Up until that point she was adamant about no 'chemicals' in her dogs. I think that you have to analyze each thing on its own merits. 

This Trifexis thing is sad and I agree it warrants looking into.
You may want to report it here: Is Trifexis safe? Are the internet rumors of severe side effects true? | Veterinary News

Also HAVE your vet report it to the maker of the drug. We do this anytime we see anything that may be a reaction to a drug. That way a database is started. If their are enough similar incidents then the drug gets pulled.

Personally I have never used Trifexis so I have no personal experience to add.

Hope your dog gets better


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## Brian 6

"New generations of vaccines, especially naked DNA vaccines, are free of serum components, and these should not include autoantibodies. A recent study in mice indicates that DNA vaccination does not induce or accelerate autoimmune disease (Mer et al, 1997)."
We use these whenever possible and there are many available.

Regarding vaccines. What a dog gets has to be tailored to his/her individual lifestyle which determines what things he/she is at risk of exposure to.

Unfortunately all vets are not the same. There are some 'chains' that insist all vets working for them give ALL dogs ALL vaccines. This is purely a business decision and not in the best interest of the dog. These sorts of places give vets a bad name. 

Also, some vets don't keep up properly. When the new lepto strains started (I'm in Ontario) many of my colleagues were using an old vaccine that did not protect against them and cause a huge number of reactions due to it being made with old technology. The vaccine in question ground up the entire spirochete (Lepto bacteria) and turned it into a vaccine. Only the outer shell of the spirochete was necessary for protection. The insides or 'guts' of the bacteria caused most of the reactions. I had stopped using this vaccine right when I graduated because of the high number of swollen faces I had seen together with the fact that I had never seen a case of Leptospirosis.

Unfortunately Leptospirosis is now a problem in our area. (One of our technicians was even hospitalised with it) Fortunately there is a new vaccine made from just the outer membrane and causes far fewer reactions. Nonetheless we ONLY recommend this cvaccine to dogs that are at risk, i.e. dogs that are near ponds, rivers, puddles etc... If they are in an apartment and are walked around the block or in a park with no access to water then they don't need it. Leptospirosis is carried by raccoons in their urine so dogs get it by drinking contaminated water.
We also avoid it in certain breeds that are prone to reactions or breeds that are prone to autoimmune disease.

This is what I mean by tailoring what you give your dog to what his/her needs are based on the risks they run by what they are likely exposed to.


----------



## PunkyPug

RedneckCowgirl said:


> I'm sure if you did a quick forum search you would find many threads by this person talking about switching, giving it a few days then giving up and saying that the dog does better on kibble. Only to post the same thing the next month.


Oh I'm sorry I cannot afford over priced chicken at just 10lbs every month.
I'm sorry I cannot store or find someone else to use the leftovers of 90LBS OF MEAT!


Also this forum seems to hold a little cult here. Once the RAW feeders find out you feed kibble they feel it is their duty to convert you to RAW. And even after you do all your research and find out your resources don't allow you to make the switch then they turn all primal on you. I honestly have no respect for this forum. The only time I visit this forum is when I bored and have a day off. And every time I do visit this forum I ALWAYS find a thread like this. I think these users in their little cult need to step back and stop being so rude when someone cannot make the switch to RAW. Believe me, I WANT to make the switch, but I will NOT waste 60lbs of meat because I cannot store that half or find someone to use it and I will not pay for 10lbs of meat at $50 every month. I keep eyes and ears open for another meat market like the one that shut down by my mother's house.


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## meggels

PunkyPug said:


> Oh I'm sorry I cannot afford over priced chicken at just 10lbs every month.
> I'm sorry I cannot store or find someone else to use the leftovers of 90LBS OF MEAT!
> 
> 
> Also this forum seems to hold a little cult here. Once the RAW feeders find out you feed kibble they feel it is their duty to convert you to RAW. And even after you do all your research and find out your resources don't allow you to make the switch then they turn all primal on you. I honestly have no respect for this forum. The only time I visit this forum is when I bored and have a day off. And every time I do visit this forum I ALWAYS find a thread like this. I think these users in their little cult need to step back and stop being so rude when someone cannot make the switch to RAW. Believe me, I WANT to make the switch, but I will NOT waste 60lbs of meat because I cannot store that half or find someone to use it and I will not pay for 10lbs of meat at $50 every month. I keep eyes and ears open for another meat market like the one that shut down by my mother's house.



I wouldn't get too offended, chances are she was talking about me :thumb:


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## InkedMarie

PunkyPug said:


> Also this forum seems to hold a little cult here. Once the RAW feeders find out you feed kibble they feel it is their duty to convert you to RAW. And even after you do all your research and find out your resources don't allow you to make the switch then they turn all primal on you. I honestly have no respect for this forum. The only time I visit this forum is when I bored and have a day off. And every time I do visit this forum I ALWAYS find a thread like this. I think these users in their little cult need to step back and stop being so rude when someone cannot make the switch to RAW. Believe me, I WANT to make the switch, but I will NOT waste 60lbs of meat because I cannot store that half or find someone to use it and I will not pay for 10lbs of meat at $50 every month. I keep eyes and ears open for another meat market like the one that shut down by my mother's house.


First of all, I don't feed raw, unless you consider pre made raw to be raw. The raw feeders on this forum do not consider it raw and funny, none of them have turned all primal on me, they haven't converted me to raw....Cult? Funny, I'm in a couple groups with the raw feeders here and we get along just fine, they don't act like a cult. Maybe it's just you, PunkyPug. Maybe you need to find something to do with your time so you're not so bored that you have to come here, a board you obviously don't like.


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## Herzo

PunkyPug said:


> Oh I'm sorry I cannot afford over priced chicken at just 10lbs every month.
> I'm sorry I cannot store or find someone else to use the leftovers of 90LBS OF MEAT!
> 
> 
> Also this forum seems to hold a little cult here. Once the RAW feeders find out you feed kibble they feel it is their duty to convert you to RAW. And even after you do all your research and find out your resources don't allow you to make the switch then they turn all primal on you. I honestly have no respect for this forum. The only time I visit this forum is when I bored and have a day off. And every time I do visit this forum I ALWAYS find a thread like this. I think these users in their little cult need to step back and stop being so rude when someone cannot make the switch to RAW. Believe me, I WANT to make the switch, but I will NOT waste 60lbs of meat because I cannot store that half or find someone to use it and I will not pay for 10lbs of meat at $50 every month. I keep eyes and ears open for another meat market like the one that shut down by my mother's house.


This is a bunch of bunk. I feed two of my dogs part kibble and two of them PMR. Yes when I told them , these people that you say, simply asked why and I told them then they leave me alone about it. It's when you make a big deal about it I guess, cause they don't bother me and yes I am in contacted with some of them so called shove it down your throat types.

I think that maybe you feel inferior about it and so you maybe make a big deal about it. Do what you have to do for your dog and if you ask questions don't get so defensive if you don't like the answer. If you think it sounds wrong or you can't do that then just do what you can and thank them for trying.

Get off the soap box. I'm tired of everyone saying oHHHHHHHHH my feeling is hurt. And No feeling was not a typo.


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## Herzo

InkedMarie you beat me to it.


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## InkedMarie

Herzo said:


> InkedMarie you beat me to it.


I aim to please!


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## PunkyPug

I'm sry, when several users attack me because I have no space to put a spare freezer in my home so I can feed my animals RAW, I feel that is very rude. And many of the RAW feeders act "cult like". They find out you feed kibble then that take it upon themselves to convert you to RAW. They all act like that religious person who thinks everyone should worship the same God. Yes, some RAW feeders are polite. But there are some RAW feeders who make this forum very unfriendly.
I actually come here when I am bored, which I may tell you is quite few times, for entertainment. Everyone is always going at each others throats. It is never ending here.


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## MollyWoppy

Don't forget you've also been given a LOT of good information on this forum. There have been many people, both kibble and raw feeders, who have given you good advice on several topics concerning your pup.


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## DaneMama

PunkyPug said:


> I'm sry, when several users attack me because I have no space to put a spare freezer in my home so I can feed my animals RAW, I feel that is very rude. And many of the RAW feeders act "cult like". They find out you feed kibble then that take it upon themselves to convert you to RAW. They all act like that religious person who thinks everyone should worship the same God. Yes, some RAW feeders are polite. But there are some RAW feeders who make this forum very unfriendly.
> I actually come here when I am bored, which I may tell you is quite few times, for entertainment. Everyone is always going at each others throats. It is never ending here.


First of all, I run a pretty tight ship here. There's not much that I don't see or I'm not in tune with that would be considered "attacking" or "bashing" as this behavior is NOT allowed. That said, I cannot make everyone happy and cannot guarantee that ones words won't hurt another's feelings even if comments are made with respect and dignity. What I've learned from my experience on the web is that you have to take what people say with a grain of salt and grow an extra sturdy back bone. Do my feelings still get hurt by what people say? Absolutely but I've learned that it's a waste of time and energy to put much thought into it. 

Second of all, I will say that it doesnt help your reputation or image here to basically say this forum is garbage and you only come here out of boredom on your days off. Not that I think you should have to suck up to anyone here, even me...but maybe just be a little more positive and constructive in your posts and you might get a more positive response from members here. What goes around, goes around.


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## mheath0429

PunkyPug said:


> I'm sry, when several users attack me because I have no space to put a spare freezer in my home so I can feed my animals RAW, I feel that is very rude. And many of the RAW feeders act "cult like". They find out you feed kibble then that take it upon themselves to convert you to RAW. They all act like that religious person who thinks everyone should worship the same God. Yes, some RAW feeders are polite. But there are some RAW feeders who make this forum very unfriendly.
> I actually come here when I am bored, which I may tell you is quite few times, for entertainment. Everyone is always going at each others throats. It is never ending here.


Funny, I felt that way about the kibble side. So instead of getting preachy and sensitive, I put on my big girl panties and offered advice on the kibble I view as positive. I reply to kibble threads and don't preach raw. Do I think raw is the best thing for your dog, absolutely. Do I think it is the best for every owner? Nope. At the very least I suggest premium, grain free kibble. I don't get on a soap box and whine about someone not sharing my opinion. The only time I even get defensive is when someone is a butthead and attacks me personally. At that point, I have to remind myself that people wouldn't get so defensive if they were 100% confident in something. I shrug it off. I am doing what I feel, through research and experience, is the best thing for my dogs (and cats). Whatever decision you make is your own. Don't like the thread? Leave. 

Just my two cents. 

@DaViking - I was very putoff by you initially, because you are a bit of a jerk. You are knowledgeable, but don't you think you could get more flies with honey? Just a thought.


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## 1605

DaneMama said:


> First of all, I run a pretty tight ship here. There's not much that I don't see or I'm not in tune with that would be considered "attacking" or "bashing" as this behavior is NOT allowed. That said, I cannot make everyone happy and cannot guarantee that ones words won't hurt another's feelings even if comments are made with respect and dignity. What I've learned from my experience on the web is that you have to take what people say with a grain of salt and grow an extra sturdy back bone. Do my feelings still get hurt by what people say? Absolutely but I've learned that it's a waste of time and energy to put much thought into it.
> 
> Second of all, I will say that it doesnt help your reputation or image here to basically say this forum is garbage and you only come here out of boredom on your days off. Not that I think you should have to suck up to anyone here, even me...but maybe just be a little more positive and constructive in your posts and you might get a more positive response from members here. What goes around, goes around.


As someone who is and has been a Moderator on other boards the first thing I would like to do is thank people like DaneMama for putting in all that time/effort to make not just a forum, but a community here on DFC. 

However, while if find some of what has been said in this thread a bit over the top, I have to agree that there seems to be a small cadre of people who are dead set against anything but raw. They are vocal and aggressive almost to the point of labelling people who do not share their passion for raw as being unfit owners. Not only that, but these people seem almost pathologically driven to proselytize in what are clearly not raw threads or forums. I wouldn't dream of going to the RAW or BARF section and throwing dry or canned food comments into those areas. Yet the same courtesy is not afforded to those of us who do not share the raw or barf philosophy.

Sometimes I think people lose sight of the fact that most of use who participate here care about their pets. Otherwise we wouldn't be here. 

If everyone could just step back from the keyboard once in a while & RESPECT each others' opinions instead of trying to outshout each other, then this would not be such a polarized board.

JMHO,


----------



## Sheltielover25

SubMariner said:


> As someone who is and has been a Moderator on other boards the first thing I would like to do is thank people like DaneMama for putting in all that time/effort to make not just a forum, but a community here on DFC.
> 
> However, while if find some of what has been said in this thread a bit over the top, I have to agree that there seems to be a small cadre of people who are dead set against anything but raw. They are vocal and aggressive almost to the point of labelling people who do not share their passion for raw as being unfit owners. Not only that, but these people seem almost pathologically driven to proselytize in what are clearly not raw threads or forums. I wouldn't dream of going to the RAW or BARF section and throwing dry or canned food comments into those areas. Yet the same courtesy is not afforded to those of us who do not share the raw or barf philosophy.
> 
> Sometimes I think people lose sight of the fact that most of use who participate here care about their pets. Otherwise we wouldn't be here.
> 
> If everyone could just step back from the keyboard once in a while & RESPECT each others' opinions instead of trying to outshout each other, then this would not be such a polarized board.
> 
> JMHO,


IMO it's not about sharing a passion for raw that causes me to be so vocal about the subject. It's the passion of properly caring for a carnivore that gets me going. Just because it's become socially acceptable to go the lazy route and feed our carnivorous friends a processed, carbohydrate/sugar-ridden, inadequate diet does not in any way make it the RIGHT thing to do. So when I preach about feeding a proper diet, I'm preaching on behalf of the animals who are getting the short end of the stick here and suffering right and left It wouldn't be acceptable to bring home a snake and feed it vegetables and grains... so why has it become socially acceptable to do it with other pets? I don't feel there is any excuse for not feeding a raw diet. Time, space, money are all inadequate excuses. If you're taking in an animal, you have to think about proper diet and care and if you're able to give that. It shouldn't be socially acceptable to feed something that's convenient. Same goes for toxins such a flea medicine...There are easy alternatives that do take a little more work, but in the end, benefit your animal and that's what you're seeking when you're caring for a pet. We as a society have gotten too lazy when it comes to nutrition and are suffering greatly from the consequences and that's what I feel passionate about. 

I will add it's one thing if you don't know about the dangers of kibbles, or don't understand the proper way of caring for a carnivore, but if you've spent time on this board, your mind should broaden, you should expand that to your own research, and apply the proper way of feeding and such. So while one might come in ignorant, there's no excuse for leaving with that same ignorance.


----------



## 1605

Sheltielover25 said:


> IMO it's not about sharing a passion for raw that causes me to be so vocal about the subject. It's the passion of properly caring for a carnivore that gets me going. Just because it's become socially acceptable to go the lazy route and feed our carnivorous friends a processed, carbohydrate/sugar-ridden, inadequate diet does not in any way make it the RIGHT thing to do. So when I preach about feeding a proper diet, I'm preaching on behalf of the animals who are getting the short end of the stick here and suffering right and left It wouldn't be acceptable to bring home a snake and feed it vegetables and grains... so why has it become socially acceptable to do it with other pets? I don't feel there is any excuse for not feeding a raw diet. Time, space, money are all inadequate excuses. If you're taking in an animal, you have to think about proper diet and care and if you're able to give that. It shouldn't be socially acceptable to feed something that's convenient. Same goes for toxins such a flea medicine...There are easy alternatives that do take a little more work, but in the end, benefit your animal and that's what you're seeking when you're caring for a pet. We as a society have gotten too lazy when it comes to nutrition and are suffering greatly from the consequences and that's what I feel passionate about.
> 
> I will add it's one thing if you don't know about the dangers of kibbles, or don't understand the proper way of caring for a carnivore, but if you've spent time on this board, your mind should broaden, you should expand that to your own research, and apply the proper way of feeding and such. So while one might come in ignorant, there's no excuse for leaving with that same ignorance.


Exhibit A....


----------



## mheath0429

SubMariner said:


> Exhibit A....


Why is it not.okay for her to state her opinion, but its okay for you to be snippy.

Don't wanna get preach but dogs share 99.8% of their DNA with wolves. They are carnivores.


----------



## 1605

mheath0429 said:


> Why is it not.okay for her to state her opinion, but its okay for you to be snippy.
> 
> Don't wanna get preach but dogs share 99.8% of their DNA with wolves. They are carnivores.


How about because it illustrated exactly what I was saying in my post and was entirely off topic.

To which you have just provided Exhibit B, btw.


----------



## naturalfeddogs

SubMariner said:


> Exhibit A....


Maybe if you elaborate a little more? Leaving like that only can be taken in more ways than one. "Snippy" is just one of them.


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## 1605

naturalfeddogs said:


> Maybe if you elaborate a little more? Leaving like that only can be taken in more ways than one. "Snippy" is just one of them.


With all due respect, I believe I was quite clear in my post. Please re-read it. Then look at the responses.

"Snippy"? Hardly. "Incredulous"? Perhaps....


----------



## DaViking

Sheltielover25 said:


> IMO it's not about sharing a passion for raw that causes me to be so vocal about the subject. It's the passion of properly caring for a carnivore that gets me going. Just because it's become socially acceptable to go the lazy route and feed our carnivorous friends a processed, carbohydrate/sugar-ridden, inadequate diet does not in any way make it the RIGHT thing to do. So when I preach about feeding a proper diet, I'm preaching on behalf of the animals who are getting the short end of the stick here and suffering right and left It wouldn't be acceptable to bring home a snake and feed it vegetables and grains... so why has it become socially acceptable to do it with other pets? I don't feel there is any excuse for not feeding a raw diet. Time, space, money are all inadequate excuses. If you're taking in an animal, you have to think about proper diet and care and if you're able to give that. It shouldn't be socially acceptable to feed something that's convenient. Same goes for toxins such a flea medicine...There are easy alternatives that do take a little more work, but in the end, benefit your animal and that's what you're seeking when you're caring for a pet. We as a society have gotten too lazy when it comes to nutrition and are suffering greatly from the consequences and that's what I feel passionate about.
> 
> I will add it's one thing if you don't know about the dangers of kibbles, or don't understand the proper way of caring for a carnivore, but if you've spent time on this board, your mind should broaden, you should expand that to your own research, and apply the proper way of feeding and such. So while one might come in ignorant, there's no excuse for leaving with that same ignorance.


Absolutely rubbish written by one of the more extreme persons here. Dogs thrive when the owner(s) get the dog < -- > owner(s) connection right providing the right balance of physical and mental stimulation, boundaries and affection. When you see those who got it right it's actually an emotional experience, what food they feed plays a very small part in their relationship. You can preach and judge publicly all you want but your way will lead to nothing but tension and bickering. That judging you are doing could easily be flipped right back at you, but do you see anyone doing that? You don't because we know it would lead to nothing fruitful what-so-ever. Focus on getting your raw feeding regime as optimal as humanly possible. Help documenting raw. Help research raw. Research the science behind ingredients and nutrition in raw forms. Spend your time on something positive. Those looking to start their dogs on raw are looking for reliable info and concrete detailed help, not what's wrong with every other way of feeding.


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## naturalfeddogs

Not much to re read. "EXIBIT A". 
That could be taken in more ways than one. I think that's what Sheltilover was gettin at, in her post.


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## 1605

naturalfeddogs said:


> Not much to re read. "EXIBIT A".
> That could be taken in more ways than one. I think that's what Sheltilover was gettin at, in her post.


The post to which I was referring when I said "re-read my post": http://dogfoodchat.com/forum/dog-health-issues-question/17500-trifexis-dangerous-15.html#post219623

THEN read the response from Sheltielover25 et al. 

The context of my subsequent comments should then become clear.


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## Nana52

Sheltielover25 said:


> IMO it's not about sharing a passion for raw that causes me to be so vocal about the subject. It's the passion of properly caring for a carnivore that gets me going. Just because it's become socially acceptable to go the lazy route and feed our carnivorous friends a processed, carbohydrate/sugar-ridden, inadequate diet does not in any way make it the RIGHT thing to do. So when I preach about feeding a proper diet, I'm preaching on behalf of the animals who are getting the short end of the stick here and suffering right and left It wouldn't be acceptable to bring home a snake and feed it vegetables and grains... so why has it become socially acceptable to do it with other pets? I don't feel there is any excuse for not feeding a raw diet. Time, space, money are all inadequate excuses. If you're taking in an animal, you have to think about proper diet and care and if you're able to give that. It shouldn't be socially acceptable to feed something that's convenient. Same goes for toxins such a flea medicine...There are easy alternatives that do take a little more work, but in the end, benefit your animal and that's what you're seeking when you're caring for a pet. We as a society have gotten too lazy when it comes to nutrition and are suffering greatly from the consequences and that's what I feel passionate about.
> 
> I will add it's one thing if you don't know about the dangers of kibbles, or don't understand the proper way of caring for a carnivore, but if you've spent time on this board, your mind should broaden, you should expand that to your own research, and apply the proper way of feeding and such. So while one might come in ignorant, there's no excuse for leaving with that same ignorance.


OK. I DO feed raw, and even I'm offended by this post. Of course, I only started raw 12 weeks ago. I guess before that, I was lazy, inadequate, ignorant and didn't love and/or deserve to have my dogs. I don't care what you feed your dogs, I guaran-damn-tee you don't love your dogs any more than I love mine. :banplease: I don't think I even want to be here anymore.

Donna/Nana


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## DaneMama

Sheltielover25 said:


> IMO it's not about sharing a passion for raw that causes me to be so vocal about the subject. It's the passion of properly caring for a carnivore that gets me going. Just because it's become socially acceptable to go the lazy route and feed our carnivorous friends a processed, carbohydrate/sugar-ridden, inadequate diet does not in any way make it the RIGHT thing to do. So when I preach about feeding a proper diet, I'm preaching on behalf of the animals who are getting the short end of the stick here and suffering right and left It wouldn't be acceptable to bring home a snake and feed it vegetables and grains... so why has it become socially acceptable to do it with other pets? I don't feel there is any excuse for not feeding a raw diet. Time, space, money are all inadequate excuses. If you're taking in an animal, you have to think about proper diet and care and if you're able to give that. It shouldn't be socially acceptable to feed something that's convenient. Same goes for toxins such a flea medicine...There are easy alternatives that do take a little more work, but in the end, benefit your animal and that's what you're seeking when you're caring for a pet. We as a society have gotten too lazy when it comes to nutrition and are suffering greatly from the consequences and that's what I feel passionate about.




This kind of post is what labels "us raw feeders" as extreme, and preachy with our views. While I agree with most of what's stated above (I don't agree that people who don't feed raw are lazy...thats just a generalized sterotype of kibble feeders)...I've learned that it doesn't do anything but upset and anger others who don't agree. Trust me, I used to post the same types of messages and got nothing but negativity and resistance in return. So what's the point in posting something that doesn't do what you want it to? Isnt it the point of raw feeding, holistic care and natural rearing to help others see the benefits of what we are taking about? 

I know that by changing our wording slightly to make the message a little more open, the message would actually be heard and not disregarded with anger. It's hard to really process what people are saying when they feel hurt or upset. 



> I will add it's one thing if you don't know about the dangers of kibbles, or don't understand the proper way of caring for a carnivore, but if you've spent time on this board, your mind should broaden, you should expand that to your own research, and apply the proper way of feeding and such. So while one might come in ignorant, there's no excuse for leaving with that same ignorance.


I disagree with this. Just spending time on here and doing research isn't necessarily going to lead everyone down the same path. Everything is taken differently everyone. While some of us thrive and base a lot of decisions on anecdotal evidence others balk in its worthlessness. True scientific studies is what motivates a lot of people's decision makings with pet food. It's just the way of the world that we don't all agree.


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## kathylcsw

Nana52 said:


> OK. I DO feed raw, and even I'm offended by this post. Of course, I only started raw 12 weeks ago. I guess before that, I was lazy, inadequate, ignorant and didn't love and/or deserve to have my dogs. I don't care what you feed your dogs, I guaran-damn-tee you don't love your dogs any more than I love mine. :banplease: I don't think I even want to be here anymore.
> 
> Donna/Nana


I hope that you decide to stay. I enjoy reading your posts and following your raw journey with Kody and Kacey. Not all raw feeders are so judgemental. When I first discovered this site there was the same crap going on with some raw feeders actually saying that if you fed kibble you didn't love your dogs as much as they did. At that time I was feeding kibble and had honestly never even heard of raw. I was so put off by the attitude that I refused to even consider raw for fear that I would become "one of them." I finally did move toward raw and after almost a year of raw feeding I am still not "one of them." 

I am very satisfied with my feeding choices for my dogs. I do not judge people who feed differently. I am positive that everyone who vists this site loves their dogs as much as I love mine, no matter what they feed. Raw feeders who come across as strident and judgemental do much to harm the concept and actually may make some people not even bother to learn more. This forum should be about sharing our love of dogs and helping each other make the best choice for our lives and our dogs. As long as you aren't feeding Ol Roy that is!


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## Tracy

As a new member to this forum, I've followed this thread with great interest.
I really hope no one leaves and peace can be resumed.eace:
I think if you're on this forum looking for advice, then it really does not matter what you feed. You'll take away from it what you need and what works for you and your dog. This is what I do anyway. 
Every single person on here obviously loves their animals (that's the MOST important thing).:thumb:


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## Sheltielover25

I do feel kibble is mainly used for convenience, as it's like if I wanted to make my own bread so I know what's exactly in it, I can do so but it will take a lot more time than it would to just go out and buy bread. So when I said "lazy" I should clarify, I mean convenient which in my mind translates to lazy. I don't know if people are sitting there deliberately being lazy as I understand we all work, have kids, have lives etc but it is our responsibility to balance such acts so we can adequately provide for our family members (canines included) properly in the nutrition department.

Nana, you're a perfect example of what I'm talking about. You, like me, probably didn't realize the dangers of kibble or the fact it's not the proper way a carnivore should be fed. But then you came on here, or other sites, and discovered you were wrong. Just what happened to me... the wheels started turning, I did hours of research and listened to my peers and learned the right way to feed a carnivore. Did you love your dog any less before when you fed kibble? No, you were just misinformed because we have a system that is set up to misinform people. So, I think you're a perfect example of what I described earlier. You're one that started with incorrect knowledge and put everything together on your own and switched to the proper way. THAT's what I expect people to do I don't think it's too absurd as I expect the same thing for people and their human children. In a perfect world we'd be given the proper education and knowledge on nutrition, but our society is corrupt and we have to branch out and do our own research and learn about the anatomy of a carnivore, their digestive track, and all those things and feed them a diet in which they can derive their essentials through actual food, not man-made vitamins. Hopefully, researching animal's diet/health goes into our own health as I know it's opened the doors for me in terms of how I eat as well.


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## InkedMarie

The only raw I feed is pre made. Maybe in time that may change but not the immediate future. I also feed a new (to me) kibble for one meal. I'm feeding that for a reason, as dogs I see pictures of look amazing and what their owners tell me, I like. So, for now, trying that. I think there was one or two who made me feel a little bad but to be honest, I don't know if it was here or a fb offshoot group. I can handle myself. I love my animals, I do the best I can for them which IMO, is pretty damn good. I'm constantly researching to learn more, one can never know too much. I come to this board because I hope to feed raw at sometime. I need to learn somewhere.


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## Nana52

Sheltielover25 said:


> I do feel kibble is mainly used for convenience, as it's like if I wanted to make my own bread so I know what's exactly in it, I can do so but it will take a lot more time than it would to just go out and buy bread. So when I said "lazy" I should clarify, I mean convenient which in my mind translates to lazy. I don't know if people are sitting there deliberately being lazy as I understand we all work, have kids, have lives etc but it is our responsibility to balance such acts so we can adequately provide for our family members (canines included) properly in the nutrition department.
> 
> Nana, you're a perfect example of what I'm talking about. You, like me, probably didn't realize the dangers of kibble or the fact it's not the proper way a carnivore should be fed. But then you came on here, or other sites, and discovered you were wrong. Just what happened to me... the wheels started turning, I did hours of research and listened to my peers and learned the right way to feed a carnivore. Did you love your dog any less before when you fed kibble? No, you were just misinformed because we have a system that is set up to misinform people. So, I think you're a perfect example of what I described earlier. You're one that started with incorrect knowledge and put everything together on your own and switched to the proper way. THAT's what I expect people to do I don't think it's too absurd as I expect the same thing for people and their human children. In a perfect world we'd be given the proper education and knowledge on nutrition, but our society is corrupt and we have to branch out and do our own research and learn about the anatomy of a carnivore, their digestive track, and all those things and feed them a diet in which they can derive their essentials through actual food, not man-made vitamins. Hopefully, researching animal's diet/health goes into our own health as I know it's opened the doors for me in terms of how I eat as well.


Okay. So you weren't born knowing that you were right and everyone else was wrong? That's a comfort. Seriously, if yours had been the first post I read upon coming here, I'd have thought "wow, these raw food folks are a bunch of fanatics, and I don't want any part of it." A knee-jerk response maybe, but be that as it may.

I appreciate your passion on the subject, really I do. Everyone has an opinion (much like b---holes) and/or a belief system, to which they are fully entitled, and I'll fight to the finish for your right to express yours. I just think you might win more folks over if you don't come off quite so .... well, arrogant? But, of course, that's just MY opinion. 

Donna/Nana


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## Nana52

kathylcsw said:


> I hope that you decide to stay. I enjoy reading your posts and following your raw journey with Kody and Kacey. Not all raw feeders are so judgemental. When I first discovered this site there was the same crap going on with some raw feeders actually saying that if you fed kibble you didn't love your dogs as much as they did. At that time I was feeding kibble and had honestly never even heard of raw. I was so put off by the attitude that I refused to even consider raw for fear that I would become "one of them." I finally did move toward raw and after almost a year of raw feeding I am still not "one of them."


I'll hang in ... for now. This is the only place I've found (so I thought) that didn't put me off with the "it's my way or the wrong way" attitude of the members. I still need a support system of some kind, so I'll just stay on the side lines and try not to engage. 

Kody and Kacy are doing good. If we can get past the itchies and Kody's lab is "somewhat" normal, I think we'll make it.


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## RedneckCowgirl

Honestly, I don't think its the raw people who have issues with kibble feeders.

I think it the other way around. Notice how kibble feeders who are secure in their choice of feeding kibble (even if its just for now) don't really take offense to what has been said. I think there is some MAJOR insecurities with what you feed, so you feel the need to get more defensive every other post. Currently I feed as much raw as I can, with the remainder being kibble/homecooked/whatever I throw in the bowl (basically I try for as little kibble as possible). Once I am living on my own again I will be feeding 100% raw again, but that won't be till I'm done with school. I am NOT secure in what I feed, but my mom will only allow so much, and she is slowly becoming more openminded about it, as raw is the only way to get her dog to eat reliably. At this point they get maybe two kibble meals a week.

Also, to comment on the "its our love that makes them thrive comment" Are you freaking kidding me?!?! I just lost the miniscule amount of respect I had for you. And no, I didn't read the rest of your post.... I was to dumbfounded by that first line or two.... ridiculous.


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## lauren43

I don't think that kibble feeders are by any means lazy. Many of the ppl right here on this forum spend hours upon hours researching the proper diet for their dogs and if they find a kibble that will suit their needs, that's great! It is not an easy feat to pick a kibble, I've been going back and forth trying to find the proper kibble for my parents dog and trust me its not easy. People do not always pick kibble because of lack of knowledge, some people will never be able to wrap their head around feeding a dog raw meat and bones. Its not about being lazy, its about being an individual. 25 people can all be given the exact same information and those 25 people could all take the information and use it in completely different ways. I know lots of people that whole-heartily love their dogs but could/would never feed raw or never even consider it and there is absolutely nothing wrong with that. Regardless of my own personal beliefs. If you are doing the best you personally can for your dog, then I believe you are doing right by them.


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## 1605

RedneckCowgirl said:


> Honestly, I don't think its the raw people who have issues with kibble feeders.
> 
> I think it the other way around. Notice how kibble feeders who are secure in their choice of feeding kibble (even if its just for now) don't really take offense to what has been said. I think there is some MAJOR insecurities with what you feed, so you feel the need to get more defensive every other post. Currently I feed as much raw as I can, with the remainder being kibble/homecooked/whatever I throw in the bowl (basically I try for as little kibble as possible). Once I am living on my own again I will be feeding 100% raw again, but that won't be till I'm done with school. I am NOT secure in what I feed, but my mom will only allow so much, and she is slowly becoming more openminded about it, as raw is the only way to get her dog to eat reliably. At this point they get maybe two kibble meals a week.
> 
> Also, to comment on the "its our love that makes them thrive comment" Are you freaking kidding me?!?! I just lost the miniscule amount of respect I had for you. And no, I didn't read the rest of your post.... I was to dumbfounded by that first line or two.... ridiculous.


I thought that approaching this in a calm, diplomatic way would be of use. Unfortunately, I seem to have been mistaken. While I personally have not felt the need to be bellicose or abusive in this discussion, it's obvious that this sentiment is not reciprocated. Kind of typifies much of this thread, really.

It's like talking to a bunch of Klu Klux Klanners: "excuse me... about this burning cross in the middle of the yard..." Seriously, this would make fine material for a Eugene Ionescu play.

BTW, when you move out of Mommy & Daddy's house and have to make your own way in the world then perhaps you may earn the right to be scornful of people who actually make adult decisions.


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## RedneckCowgirl

SubMariner said:


> BTW, when you move out of Mommy & Daddy's house and have to make your own way in the world then perhaps you may earn the right to be scornful of people who actually make adult decisions.


Yes, I can totally see how I am being the rude one here 

And yes. I live with my mother. Yes, she is helping me pay for school AND most of my stuff AND letting me live with her till I'm done with school. I also never had to pay for my car, as it was given to me. I have had far from a tough life, and I'll be the first to admit that. But don't think that I feel I am entitled to it, or that it makes me unprepared for the real world in any sense. I have lived on my own, and a series of events brought me back to my moms.

But you know what, I don't have anything to prove to you. You have no idea the person I am and what made me this way, so I am kindly stepping out of this thread. How's that for an "adult decision"


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## naturalfeddogs

SubMariner said:


> I thought that approaching this in a calm, diplomatic way would be of use. Unfortunately, I seem to have been mistaken. While I personally have not felt the need to be bellicose or abusive in this discussion, it's obvious that this sentiment is not reciprocated. Kind of typifies much of this thread, really.
> 
> It's like talking to a bunch of Klu Klux Klanners: "excuse me... about this burning cross in the middle of the yard..." Seriously, this would make fine material for a Eugene Ionescu play.
> 
> BTW, when you move out of Mommy & Daddy's house and have to make your own way in the world then perhaps you may earn the right to be scornful of people who actually make adult decisions.


*sigh* Are you REALLY resorting to needless comments like those? Are they REALLY necessary? I think those were pretty low. JMO.


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## DaViking

My post


DaViking said:


> Dogs thrive when the owner(s) get the dog < -- > owner(s) connection right providing the right balance of physical and mental stimulation, boundaries and affection. When you see those who got it right it's actually an emotional experience, what food they feed plays a very small part in their relationship.


Your post


RedneckCowgirl said:


> Also, to comment on the "its our love that makes them thrive comment" Are you freaking kidding me?!?! I just lost the miniscule amount of respect I had for you. And no, I didn't read the rest of your post.... I was to dumbfounded by that first line or two.... ridiculous.


Don't re-write or twist what I said. Anyways, why did this offend you? I'd really like to know why this is ridiculous in your experience? Unless this is the twilight zone I don't think someone who lives with mom and dad have earned any rights to discard and discredit something a more or less unified world of reasonably informed dog parents, owners and handlers already know, live by or work towards. These are the 3 cornerstones necessary for a thriving dog. Calling this ridiculous implies a serious lack of understanding. When you observe that special partnership for the first time you will know what I am talking about. Somewhere down the road, when you get out of your parents basement you'll understand how this makes sense. You are the case in point SubMariner is talking about. Reading you now I don't think you have enough experience to understand what we are talking about here.


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## RedneckCowgirl

DaViking said:


> ] When you see those who got it right it's actually an emotional experience, what food they feed plays a very small part in their relationship.


That was the part I was referring to. Its ridiculous to me because without proper food you have no health, and with unhealthiness comes lack of energy, and with that comes depression. Trust me, I know how that one goes personally. You can love something all you want, but that doesn't make them healthy. Anyone whose ever lost a loved one could tell you that. 

And I don't see that age makes that much of a difference in my case. I may not legally be able to drink, but I sure as heck know my way around when it comes to animals. I've read everything I could get my hands on from a young age, watched every video, formed my own conclusions. I've been a sponge to all things animal since I knew what they were. Do I know everything? Of course not. Do I plan on learning the way I have for the past 20 years? You can bet your ass I do!


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## Roo

I thought this thread was about Susan's dog and informing others about possible reactions to Trifexis, not rabies vaccination, raw vs kibble, supposed raw cult or certain clique on the forum, raw feeders extreme views, kibble feeders insecurities, what makes a dog thrive, who lives with their parents. .etc. etc. etc...

It would be sad if Susan's whole reason for starting this thread was lost among the many topic spin offs/disagreements it's become.


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## RedneckCowgirl

Roo said:


> I thought this thread was about Susan's dog and informing others about possible reactions to Trifexis, not rabies vaccination, raw vs kibble, supposed raw cult or certain clique on the forum, raw feeders extreme views, kibble feeders insecurities, what makes a dog thrive, who lives with their parents. .etc. etc. etc...
> 
> It would be sad if Susan's whole reason for starting this thread was lost among the many topic spin offs/disagreements it's become.



Its a public forum, and this is what happens. Going off topic is how we all learn new things. It gets opinions out there without a billion different threads. Besides. OP hasn't been back


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## DaViking

RedneckCowgirl said:


> That was the part I was referring to. Its ridiculous to me because without proper food you have no health, and with unhealthiness comes lack of energy, and with that comes depression. Trust me, I know how that one goes personally. You can love something all you want, but that doesn't make them healthy. Anyone whose ever lost a loved one could tell you that.
> 
> And I don't see that age makes that much of a difference in my case. I may not legally be able to drink, but I sure as heck know my way around when it comes to animals. I've read everything I could get my hands on from a young age, watched every video, formed my own conclusions. I've been a sponge to all things animal since I knew what they were. Do I know everything? Of course not. Do I plan on learning the way I have for the past 20 years? You can bet your ass I do!


Again, what you say show how little experience you have. Feeding Bil-Jac, Orijen or raw is of lesser importance when it comes to getting a dog to thrive. A dog doesn't stop to exist after meal time. You won't get a dog to thrive simply by exchanging DogChow with PMR, won't happen. To get a happy thriving dog you need to work on those 3 fundamentals.
Yes age and experience got everything to do with it. You can read all the books you want but experience is the only way to get anywhere.


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## RedneckCowgirl

DaViking said:


> Again, what you say show how little experience you have. Feeding Bil-Jac, Orijen or raw is of lesser importance when it comes to getting a dog to thrive. You wont't get a dog to thrive simply by exchanging DogChow with PMR, won't happen. To get a happy thriving dog you need to work on those 3 fundamentals.
> Yes age and experience got everything to do with it. You can read all the books you want but experience is the only way to get anywhere.



I agree, but to say that nutrition pays a small part in the equation is what I was referring too. Healthy comes first. Then love and mental stimulation. Its like 80% health, 20% the other


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## DaneMama

I think we've let this go on a bit too long now. I've been more open to letting discussions go but really....hate speech?! I'm appalled.


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