# A vet who promotes RAW / Dr. Karen Becker



## ShanniBella (Jul 1, 2011)

Anyone familiar with her? She seems very knowledgeable about nutrition which I know alot of vets lack......I find her very interesting :smile:

Is Your Raw Pet Food Nutritionally Balanced?


*This has a video attached to the article so you can either read it or watch her speak about the article*
The Best and Worst Pet Foods


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## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

She advocates 25% fruits and veggies.


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## CavePaws (Jan 25, 2011)

At least she promotes raw. While I may not agree with the fruits and veggies part (really, how much value does sugary fruit add to a dogs diet?! plz expln ur logic?) I'm still happy she advocates feeding your dog raw meaty bones and organs.


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## DaneMama (Jun 27, 2008)

I agree with CavePaws. 

Its refreshing that she advocates a raw diet, even if it is a BARF diet. But where does she prove that dogs needs select fruits and veggies? Has she done research showing their benefits? 

But I will add that she is a catchy saleswoman....and not a whole lot more to me since I've been following her blog/articles.


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## runwiththewind (Aug 19, 2011)

I'm very familiar with her. I read some her articles and I contribute my advice sometimes on her blog. Pet Nutrition and Animal Wellness on Mercola Healthy Pets

•University of Wisconsin-Stevens Point majoring in Wildlife and International Resource Management, 1989
•International Veterinary Acupuncture Society's certification course in Houston, TX, 1996 
•Iowa State School of Veterinary Medicine, 1997 
•Exotic animal internship in California, 1997 
•Academy of Veterinary Homeopathy's certification course in Virginia, 1998

Dr. Becker has no official education in nutrition. She does promote "raw feeding" as the best way to feed pets. She's written books and also sells products. 

I think Monica Segal from K9 Kitchen is more knowledgeable as far as nutrition. Biography of Monica Segal

K9Kitchen : dog diets raw cooked allergies disease


"But I will add that she is a catchy saleswoman....and not a whole lot more to me since I've been following her blog/articles"

Thank you Natalie for your comments! I'm with ya. When reading some of her articles, she mentions her books & products.


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## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

I do have to wonder, though - if it's so bad for Billinghurst to promote BARF feeding, why is it ok for a vet to do so? Shouldn't we be happy that he's promoting some kind (any kind) of raw diet?


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## runwiththewind (Aug 19, 2011)

Dr. Billinghurst is the manufacturer of the BARF diet - he has financial gain. If a Vet recommends it, he has no financial gain. 

I'd also like to mention this about Dr. B with some of his supplements. 

E BARF Plus - ingredients come from China, Equador, Germany, Mexico - only the probiotics come from USA.

Dr. Ian Billinghurst's Canine Daily Nutritional Supplement has “Menadione" in it. When one of his customers phoned him to find out why that ingredient is in it, he became hostile & vulgar. Apparently Dr. B knows it doesn’t belong in his products and got defensive. 


Ingredients
Dried beef liver, Potassium chloride, Brewers dried yeast, Maltodextrins, Dicalcium phosphate, Ascorbic acid, Inulin, Dried whey protein concentrate, Taurine, Choline bitartrate, Flaxseed meal, Inositol, Glucosamine hydrochloride, Zinc amino acid chelate, Chondroitin sulfate, DL-Methionine, Mixed tocopherols (a source of natural vitamin E), Dried artichoke, Beta-carotene, Iron amino acid chelate, Natural flavor, Sodium molybdate, Fish oil, Dried kelp, L-Carnitine, p-Aminobenzoic acid, Dried broccoli, Dried kale, Dried radish, Dried barley grass, Turmeric, Yucca schidigera extract, Dried marigold flowers (source of lutein), Copper amino acid chelate, Niacinamide, Manganese amino acid chelate, Silcon dioxide, d-Calcium pantothenate, Biotin, Dried Aspergillus oryzae fermentation product, Dried Aspergillus niger fermentation product, Vitamin A palmitate, Folic acid, Pyridoxine hydrochloride, Dried Tomato (a source of lycopene), Thiamine mononitrate, Vitamin B12 supplement, Riboflavin supplement, Pork pancreatic tissue, Sodium selenite, Cholecalciferol (a source of Vitamin D3), *Menadione sodium bisulfite complex (a source of vitamin K activity), *Dried Lactobacillus acidophilus fermentation product, Dried Bifidobacterium bifidum fermentation product, Potassium iodide, Dried carrot and Dried blueberry.


The Dog Food Project - Menadione (Vitamin K3)


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

runwiththewind said:


> I'm very familiar with her. I read some her articles and I contribute my advice sometimes on her blog. Pet Nutrition and Animal Wellness on Mercola Healthy Pets
> 
> •University of Wisconsin-Stevens Point majoring in Wildlife and International Resource Management, 1989
> •International Veterinary Acupuncture Society's certification course in Houston, TX, 1996
> ...


most doctors don't have education in nutrition and i give her kudos for learning it on her own.

a doctor's education generally begins after graduation.


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## CavePaws (Jan 25, 2011)

There is a raw nutrition seminar online for APDT trainers to earn credits.  I can't wait to take it and share what I learn here. I'm sure she's been to countless seminars on nutrition.


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## sozzle (May 18, 2011)

I just read that posting on Dr Becker's website this morning and was alarmed to see that she advocates fruits and veges too! I didn't realise she did. In her opinion - to replicate all the nutrients your dog should be getting from prey model diet. You have to wonder. At least she IS promoting raw but all the other stuff I am not so sure about??? well put it this way, I am not going to start giving my dog fruit and veges. 
Sod that for a game of soldiers!!


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## chowder (Sep 7, 2008)

sozzle said:


> I just read that posting on Dr Becker's website this morning and was alarmed to see that she advocates fruits and veges too! I didn't realise she did. In her opinion - to replicate all the nutrients your dog should be getting from prey model diet. You have to wonder. At least she IS promoting raw but all the other stuff I am not so sure about??? well put it this way, I am not going to start giving my dog fruit and veges.
> Sod that for a game of soldiers!!


All I know is that if I start giving Chelsy fruits and vegies, I'm going to have one sick puppy! It wasn't until I took away all the vegies from her diet that she was finally healthy for the first time in her life!

I just LOVE the way you guys from NZ talk!!! It's always fun to read your post!!


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## runwiththewind (Aug 19, 2011)

I don't take what she or anyone says as "gospel." It is only their opinion.

Did anyone pick up Dr. Becker is promoting her book within the article and when you click on some of the links, it just so happens to promote her products? When I say hers, Mercola puts his name on it but they are partners. I've been a reader of Mercola's for years until one day I noticed after all the negative ingredients he was writing about, he just so happened to have a product that didn't contain the negative ingredients he wrote about.

Does anyone know what Beth Taylor's background is? She co-authored the book with Dr. Becker.


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

i think there is enough science to support feeding raw meaty bones to a dog. the physiology of a dog is pure carnivore.

i don't believe, and this is just opinion, that dogs are built to eat vegetables and fruits, nor do they need them. but, again, that's just my opinion.


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## KittyKat (Feb 11, 2011)

magicre said:


> i think there is enough science to support feeding raw meaty bones to a dog. the physiology of a dog is pure carnivore.
> 
> i don't believe, and this is just opinion, that dogs are built to eat vegetables and fruits, nor do they need them. but, again, that's just my opinion.


I'd agree with that. I think that wolves/dogs are opportunistic carnivores... and that if they come across something like a fruit/vegetable they would eat it, and may even enjoy it... but they don't *need* it. It's likely they go for it because of the taste, or because it fills them up. 

My dog loves carrots, but they come out the same way they go in.


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## Caty M (Aug 13, 2010)

Even if you disagree with the fact that dogs don't eat the stomach contents, the stomach contents aren't going to be a quarter of the weight of the animal.


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## RawFedDogs (Jun 16, 2008)

runwiththewind said:


> Did anyone pick up Dr. Becker is promoting her book within the article and when you click on some of the links, it just so happens to promote her products?


Isn't that just a wee bit hypocritical of you to say that? :smile:


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## runwiththewind (Aug 19, 2011)

Why do you think it's hypocritical, it's a fact.

Natalie also feels the same way "But I will add that she is a catchy saleswoman....and not a whole lot more to me since I've been following her blog/articles."


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

well....lew olson from b naturals has many degrees and she advocates raw feeding, but she also advocates her own product and book line, has a yahoo list and feeds her dogs cottage cheese and yoghurt.

she's knowlegeable, but she is going to make a living....

to all of these docs...who promote raw but also promote the un necessaries.....i applaud the fact that they have an audience being educated in raw.

for dr. becker, she has pursued continuing education; and, whilst her findings are flawed, her basics are true for me....she can sell a product. it's okay with me. 

and she can promote veggies and fruits. i don't have to feed them.

i like her. her voice is soothing. she's like mr. rogers of the dog world. very calm.


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

KittyKat said:


> I'd agree with that. I think that wolves/dogs are opportunistic carnivores... and that if they come across something like a fruit/vegetable they would eat it, and may even enjoy it... but they don't *need* it. It's likely they go for it because of the taste, or because it fills them up.
> 
> My dog loves carrots, but they come out the same way they go in.


carrots are sweet and chewy....that's why i eat them, but i don't eat them very often either since they are full of sugar and high on the glycemic index.....and there plenty of ways to get beta carotene and the other nutrients...

since wolves don't read the glycemic index, it may be wolves and dogs are turned onto sugar....since they have the pleasure center as all mammals do...


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## RawFedDogs (Jun 16, 2008)

Sandi, You are hypocritical because you critize Karen for selling books via her web postings when you are doing exactly the same here with every post you make.


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## runwiththewind (Aug 19, 2011)

"Sandi, You are hypocritical because you critize Karen for selling books via her web postings when you are doing exactly the same here with every post you make."

Are you kidding me - you're putting me in the same category as Dr. Becker?? I truly resent your remark. I got your permission as well as Natalie's to include my website in my signature. On occasion, I'll mention my book.

Are you defending Dr. Becker because you think she's a "hottie"?  You're entitled to think whatever you wish. Dr. Becker writes articles with the intention of promoting her book and products. Do you purchase her products? My other problem with her re: her blog - it seems she only answers people who have a question pertaining to her book after they purchase it or are thinking about purchasing it. Dr. Becker hardly answers anyone's questions. There was a lady who we all thought answered questions on behalf of Dr. Becker since she also plugged the books & products. She claimed she wasn't a moderator and merely volunteered to answer people's questions. She spent quite a lot of her time answering in lengthy posts as well as doing research for that person. 

"well....lew olson from b naturals has many degrees and she advocates raw feeding, but she also advocates her own product and book line, has a yahoo list and feeds her dogs cottage cheese and yoghurt."

Do you know what her education is in and what degrees she has besides breeding Rotties? I was on her list many years ago. I'm not a fan of Lew Olson.

"to all of these docs...who promote raw but also promote the un necessaries.....i applaud the fact that they have an audience being educated in raw".

Since the majority of the pet population feed kibble, don't you feel they should educate their readers in what's really in pet food and how to read labels? Why aren't these Vets trying to change the laws to make it safe for all pets. I suggested Dr. Becker attend the AAFCO meeting but she didn't have the courtesy to acknowledge my suggestion on her website.


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## RawFedDogs (Jun 16, 2008)

runwiththewind said:


> "Sandi, You are hypocritical because you critize Karen for selling books via her web postings when you are doing exactly the same here with every post you make."
> 
> Are you kidding me - you're putting me in the same category as Dr. Becker?? I truly resent your remark. I got your permission as well as Natalie's to include my website in my signature. On occasion, I'll mention my book.


I fail to see the difference in what you two do except Karen is making a living doing her stuff. She doesn't try to hide it. Actually, I've never read any web postings. All I've done is watch some of her youtube videos. The videos I have seen are very well put together and well informed. 



> "well....lew olson from b naturals has many degrees and she advocates raw feeding, but she also advocates her own product and book line, has a yahoo list and feeds her dogs cottage cheese and yoghurt."
> 
> Do you know what her education is in and what degrees she has besides breeding Rotties? I was on her list many years ago. I'm not a fan of Lew Olson.


I've known Lew for many years and not a big fan either but she also puts out some good knowledge and some not so good knowledge. Lew makes a living selling supplements for dogs. She does this through b-naturals.com and her discussion group on yahoo. Lew has a PhD in Natural Nutrition. Don't know which college and don't have time to look it up right now.



> "to all of these docs...who promote raw but also promote the un necessaries.....i applaud the fact that they have an audience being educated in raw".
> 
> Since the majority of the pet population feed kibble, don't you feel they should educate their readers in what's really in pet food and how to read labels? Why aren't these Vets trying to change the laws to make it safe for all pets. I suggested Dr. Becker attend the AAFCO meeting but she didn't have the courtesy to acknowledge my suggestion on her website.


Evidently you put more stock in the AAFCO than most knowledgable people. Do you know how easy it is to have your dog's diet certified and "Complete and Balalced" by the AAFCO. All that is necessary is that you feed your product to 8 dogs for 6 months. Six of the dog (yes only six) must complete the 6 months in "reasonably good health". By "reasonably good health", they mean loose no more that 15% of their initial body weight. 2 dogs can be removed from the study for any reason including death. I think you could have a diet of mostly cardboard certified and "complete and balanced" Check out this website _http://rawfed.com/myths/standards.html _. AAFCO is owned by the dog food companies and exists solely to aid them is selling their product.

I think you put way too much faith in formal education and organizations like AAFCO. In the canine nutrition world, formal education is pretty meaningless and actually somewhat of a hinderance.


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## SerenityFL (Sep 28, 2010)

magicre said:


> i think there is enough science to support feeding raw meaty bones to a dog. the physiology of a dog is pure carnivore.
> 
> i don't believe, and this is just opinion, that dogs are built to eat vegetables and fruits, nor do they need them. but, again, that's just my opinion.


They may not need them but they sure do eat them. In the backyard, there are some blackberry bushes and my hoodlums make a beeline for that bush when I let them out in the yard to play. They will sit there for 10-15 minutes chowing down on the blackberries.

They also continue to eat grass even though it's not "fresh, new, baby grass". I swear, I have a herd of cattle, not dogs!

And while I feed PMR, watching them do this, every. single. day makes me wonder.


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## RawFedDogs (Jun 16, 2008)

SerenityFL said:


> They may not need them but they sure do eat them. In the backyard, there are some blackberry bushes and my hoodlums make a beeline for that bush when I let them out in the yard to play. They will sit there for 10-15 minutes chowing down on the blackberries.


They don't need them like we don't need ice cream, cake, candy, etc. They eat berries because of the sugar content and great taste which is the same reason we eat the items I just listed and they get no more nutritional value from berries than we get from the cake, etc.



> They also continue to eat grass even though it's not "fresh, new, baby grass". I swear, I have a herd of cattle, not dogs!


The problem is, the grass comes back out from one end or the other looking just like it did going in. The neat thing, when grass comes out the back end, its twisted into a neat little rope. Wonder how they do that? :biggrin:



> And while I feed PMR, watching them do this, every. single. day makes me wonder.


I've been feeding PMR for 9 years and never have the though, "Wonder if I should be feeding them some plant matter." I am knowledgable of a dog's body and his GI tract and I know the answer is, "No way can their bodies make use of such stuff. They just aren't designed that way."


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## runwiththewind (Aug 19, 2011)

"I fail to see the difference in what you two do except Karen is making a living doing her stuff. She doesn't try to hide it. Actually, I've never read any web postings. All I've done is watch some of her youtube videos. The videos I have seen are very well put together and well informed."

You've never read any of her articles yet you defend her??? I know what I'm talking about whereas you don't. You apparently think she's well informed based on "her looks." I'm not questioning her knowledge or lack of. Luckily, I'm not depending on my books to make a living. I wrote the 2 books to help people. I wrote Who's Your Vet? based on my experience as well as others - real people, real stories. I have always been proactive in my health and Bernie's. When Bernie was diagnosed with a mast cell tumor in '06, I didn't know where to turn. Luckily I had met a breeder who recommended a cancer on-line group. After I posted my info on my Whippet group, people were kind to give me their opinion. I asked myself what the average pet parent does when they get that horrible diagnosis and are not on-line. I've spent many hours doing research. And that's why I wrote my book.

My motives are quite different from Dr. Becker's. Maybe I'll approach a private label company and manufacture my own brand of supplements. LOL I created, wrote, produced & directed a 30 min. tv show "Healthy People & Healthy Pets." Do you think Dr. Becker puts her videos together by herself? Do you really think she's writing all the articles on her website? I worked for a pet internet company who hired Vets to write the articles. If you notice, she never puts written by. She puts: "posted by Dr. Karen Becker". Maybe I'm wrong, but I think there's a difference there.

Mercola/Becker are marketers of products and sells them by offering health guidance that may/may not be true. They lead you to a product that they sell. 

Example:

I had a problem with one of the articles she posted "after the fact".

*AVMA Issues Alert for Chicken Jerky Treats from China posted by Dr. Becker on July 26th*
http://healthypets.mercola.com/site...lert-for-chicken-jerky-treats-from-china.aspx

I posted my comment that went unanswered: 

Posted On Aug 01, 2011 

I'm a little confused. The AVMA issued an alert to its members on *June 16th *informing them of the situation in Canada and recommending vigilance for any suspected cases in the U.S. 

Why is this article being posted by Dr. Becker on *July 26 2011*? A lot of dogs could have had a serious problem from the time it was reported until the time this article was posted. What is the purpose of writing this article now? Pet Food companies don't always report a problem in a timely fashion nor does the FDA. Towards the end of the article, if you click on Beef & Bison Bites, it takes you to another page. At the end of that page is an ad for Beef & Bison Bites that Mercola is selling. It is Becker's product but Mercola put his name on it - they are partners.

She tapped into how to make $$ from her readers with her products & books. I never buy products/supplements on line even if it has a Vet's name attached to it . The supplement industry isn't well regulated for people so I can't imagine how it's for pets. If you have a complaint, your post may not be approved by the owner/moderator. I experienced this on Dog Food Advisor when I questioned his rating on Hills N/D that he endorsed for over a year on tripaws.com. I've been interviewed numerous times and I know things can be taken out of context which he claimed was the case. I call the publication if what they wrote is incorrect. Mike wasn't willing to do that. It is very easy to make a change on the internet. I approached the website and they re-wrote the article to a different tune. It wasn't my place to approach the website, it was Mike's. I suddenly went on "moderated". When I noticed he didn't approve two of my posts, I told him I would no longer post my info to his readers. He claims he's unbiased - I question that. I worked for a pet website and they were getting $2M/yr + monthly checks from google. It's big business if you aren't already aware of.

"Sandi, You are hypocritical because you critize Karen for selling books via her web postings when you are doing exactly the same here with every post you make."

I am not promoting my book within every post I make. That is a false statement! I only have my website listed after my signature which most people are not looking at. I know exactly how many people look at my website and from which country. I spend more hours posting valuable info than people looking at my website. I like helping people when I can. 

Since there was no apology from you Bill, I will no longer contribute my info to DFC. Before you insult people, you should think twice before you hit the send button! I think you aren't a very tactful person in some of your responses to others.eace:


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## RawFedDogs (Jun 16, 2008)

runwiththewind said:


> You've never read any of her articles yet you defend her???


I'm not defending the content of her articles although if they are similar to her youtube videos, the content must be pretty good. What I am pointing out is your hyprocracy of attacking her articles and web pages because she has ads for her books just as you do in the posts you make here.



> Luckily, I'm not depending on my books to make a living. I wrote the 2 books to help people.


If that is your only motivation, why don't you post a link to a web page where people can download a PDF file of your books for free? Tom Lonsdale did that for years.



> Do you think Dr. Becker puts her videos together by herself?


Heck no. Of course not. They are too professional looking for an individual to do them herself.



> Do you really think she's writing all the articles on her website?


Don't know and don't care.



> Mercola/Becker are marketers of products and sells them by offering health guidance that may/may not be true. They lead you to a product that they sell.


As I said, all I have seen is her very informative youtube videos. I don't remember seeing her mention any books a single time. They are just informational videos. I don't know if the articles on her web page suggest buying her book or buying anything. All I've seen you mention are ads on her pages for her books. I don't understand why that upsets you unless she is just very strong competition for you.



> I had a problem with one of the articles she posted "after the fact".


I've seen you rant about that before. What do you expect? Her to post before it happened? Or are you just all hurt because she didn't answer your post?



> She tapped into how to make $$ from her readers with her products & books.


I don't have a problem with her making money. She has raised herself way beyond the ordinary vet runing an ordinary vet office. Thats a good thing. That shows a lot of ambition and I like that. It's like both Bill Gates and Steve Jobs rising above average boys building computers in their garage.



> If you have a complaint, your post may not be approved by the owner/moderator.


Thats what comes with being an owner or moderator. You make choices like that every day.



> I experienced this on Dog Food Advisor when I questioned his rating on Hills N/D that he endorsed for over a year on tripaws.com. I've been interviewed numerous times and I know things can be taken out of context which he claimed was the case. I call the publication if what they wrote is incorrect. Mike wasn't willing to do that. It is very easy to make a change on the internet. I approached the website and they re-wrote the article to a different tune. It wasn't my place to approach the website, it was Mike's. I suddenly went on "moderated". When I noticed he didn't approve two of my posts, I told him I would no longer post my info to his readers. He claims he's unbiased - I question that. I worked for a pet website and they were getting $2M/yr + monthly checks from google. It's big business if you aren't already aware of.


Do you always get upset when websites don't agree with you or don't behave in a way you expect?



> I am not promoting my book within every post I make. That is a false statement! I only have my website listed after my signature which most people are not looking at.


If you don't think your sig is promoting your book, why is it there? The link goes to a page which is nothing more than promotional material for your book. It has no other purpose.



> Since there was no apology from you Bill, I will no longer contribute my info to DFC. Before you insult people, you should think twice before you hit the send button! I think you aren't a very tactful person in some of your responses to others.eace:


I have written nothing to appologize for. From your post, it seems you have pretty thin skin and are very good at dishing out criticism but can't take your own medicine. You mentioned several examples in this post. I will apologize and say that I'm sorry the world is not going the way you want. BTW: I haven't seen you give out a lot of information on DFC. I've seen you post a lot of links. I've seen your posts that consist of nothing but a link or links. Heck, I've seen you try to start a thread with nothing other than one link with no narrative with it at all.

Oh, I guess you've noticed ... tact is not one of my strong points. I just tell it like I see it. :biggrin: OK, I thought twice ... opps I just thought again ... here it comes.


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## SerenityFL (Sep 28, 2010)

RawFedDogs said:


> They don't need them like we don't need ice cream, cake, candy, etc. They eat berries because of the sugar content and great taste which is the same reason we eat the items I just listed and they get no more nutritional value from berries than we get from the cake, etc.


Yes, RawFedDogs, I get that. But I also think it doesn't HURT them. And it makes me think that if there is a way for me to cut costs, maybe I will look in to something even if it has veggies in it.



> The problem is, the grass comes back out from one end or the other looking just like it did going in. The neat thing, when grass comes out the back end, its twisted into a neat little rope. Wonder how they do that? :biggrin:


Actually? It doesn't. I look at their poo every single time and for the amount of grass they are eating, one would think I'd be seeing grass in their poo and it simply is not there. Now, periodically, after they have binged on grass, and not every single time but maybe once every two weeks, they will hork up the grass they ate outside.

When I say "they eat grass" I mean, they would rather spend the entire hour that we are in the backyard, EATING grass! That is what they choose to do. I throw a ball, they chase it for 5 minutes, then they return to eating more grass and flowers and berries, on and on. I try to get them to run around the yard, they will do it for a short while, and back to the veggies. I get them to chase each other, again, for a few minutes and back to the veggies. If I were to leave them in the yard all day long, they would be happy as clams to eat the grass, the blackberries and, (I forgot about this one till now), the acorns that have fallen from the tree. To them, the backyard is one giant smorgasboard of goodies. And I have YET to see any of it come out in their poo. Their poos look exactly as they always have. (And I've been even MORE diligent about looking at their poos because of a dispute with a neighbor about cleaning up their dog crap and them trying to say it's mine and the landlord getting involved and me providing, "evidence" so I'm VERY aware of what their poo has been looking like for the past month.)



> I've been feeding PMR for 9 years and never have the though, "Wonder if I should be feeding them some plant matter." I am knowledgable of a dog's body and his GI tract and I know the answer is, "No way can their bodies make use of such stuff. They just aren't designed that way."


Well that's nice for you. I also have read many articles and looked at the dog jaw and looked at what for example the Smithsonian classifies them as and I think they would do better without grains or rice or whatever but I cannot argue that thus far, they are showing no ill effects from eating grass, blackberries, acorns and every so often, I give them pieces of my banana or some fruit just to see if they actually like the taste. I also like to keep an open mind as I am NOT a dog food nutritionist, do not have a degree on dog food nutrition, and have seen several arguments that dogs are omnivores. I also think about how we are omnivores yet so many out there do not eat meat yet those people seem to do just fine. 

So, again, while I feed PMR, I also know it's extremely expensive for me, I do not get meat for under a dollar a pound more often than not, and if I do, it's chicken. I do not find pork and beef for anywhere near under a dollar a pound nor am I able to find organs and other such goodies on a constant basis. For me, feeding raw is expensive. It's not as expensive as it was in Miami which was horrendously expensive, but it is still very expensive. 

Do I want my dogs to be healthy? Does anyone really need to ask that question? Really!?
Can I continue to afford a PMR diet with 2 dogs and 7 cats? No. It's getting to where I really cannot afford this. So I'm looking for something that I CAN do that's as close to it as I can get and if it has veggies or fruits, well..what's the HARM? Everyone says it doesn't benefit them, what is the HARM?


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## Caty M (Aug 13, 2010)

The thing with adding fruits and vegetables is, well, you'd need to add a LOT of them in order to make up even a moderate percentage of what they eat. Likely it won't be cost effective. Where it gets cheaper would be to feed grains or starchy vegetables since they are higher in calories, and that's when you run into health problems like diabetes because of blood sugar spikes.


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## RawFedDogs (Jun 16, 2008)

SerenityFL said:


> Yes, RawFedDogs, I get that. But I also think it doesn't HURT them. And it makes me think that if there is a way for me to cut costs, maybe I will look in to something even if it has veggies in it.


No, it doesn't hurt them. I have never said that it did. What I say is they get very little or no nutritional value from either berries, grass, or any other plant matter.



> Actually? It doesn't. I look at their poo every single time and for the amount of grass they are eating, one would think I'd be seeing grass in their poo and it simply is not there. Now, periodically, after they have binged on grass, and not every single time but maybe once every two weeks, they will hork up the grass they ate outside.


Well mine poop ropes and I have yet to figure out how they do it. :smile: The only time they hork it up is when they go rushing out of the house, straight to eating grass and a few minutes later it comes back. It's pretty plain that they they are in distress when they rush out the door.



> Well that's nice for you. I also have read many articles and looked at the dog jaw and looked at what for example the Smithsonian classifies them as and I think they would do better without grains or rice or whatever but I cannot argue that thus far, they are showing no ill effects from eating grass, blackberries, acorns and every so often, I give them pieces of my banana or some fruit just to see if they actually like the taste.


There are not going to be any ill effects from any of those. Just no benefit except the fun of chomping and swallowing thme.



> I also like to keep an open mind as I am NOT a dog food nutritionist, do not have a degree on dog food nutrition, and have seen several arguments that dogs are omnivores. I also think about how we are omnivores yet so many out there do not eat meat yet those people seem to do just fine.


I see a lot of arguments that dogs are omnivores but none with any substance to them. All they can say is that dogs sometimes eat plant material. When I ask what there is about a dog's body to indicate they are omnivores all I get is silence. 



> So, again, while I feed PMR, I also know it's extremely expensive for me, I do not get meat for under a dollar a pound more often than not, and if I do, it's chicken. I do not find pork and beef for anywhere near under a dollar a pound nor am I able to find organs and other such goodies on a constant basis. For me, feeding raw is expensive. It's not as expensive as it was in Miami which was horrendously expensive, but it is still very expensive.


PMR is getting more and more expensive due to the stupid rules about corn based ethynol gas in our cars. Thats driving up the price of all foods. Other than poultry I can't find anything under $2/lb except for rare sales. Well I can still get beef heart for close to $1/lb.



> Do I want my dogs to be healthy? Does anyone really need to ask that question? Really!?


Did anyone ask it? :biggrin:



> Can I continue to afford a PMR diet with 2 dogs and 7 cats? No. It's getting to where I really cannot afford this. So I'm looking for something that I CAN do that's as close to it as I can get and if it has veggies or fruits, well..what's the HARM? Everyone says it doesn't benefit them, what is the HARM?


The only possible harm is if because of the veggies/fruits, you lower the meat/bones/organ volume and I think that is what you are going to do. Veggies/fruits are harmless unless they take up stomach space for needed meat/bones/ organs.


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## PDXdogmom (Jun 30, 2010)

Caty M said:


> The thing with adding fruits and vegetables is, well, you'd need to add a LOT of them in order to make up even a moderate percentage of what they eat. Likely it won't be cost effective. Where it gets cheaper would be to feed grains or starchy vegetables since they are higher in calories, and that's when you run into health problems like diabetes because of blood sugar spikes.


Not all grains cause blood sugar spikes. Check out information on quinoa and millet. They are both complex grains with a fair amount of protein and don't cause blood sugar spikes.


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## Caty M (Aug 13, 2010)

Well grains especially (ALL starchy veggies and grains) would never be a natural part of a dog's diet. Leafy greens and berries, maybe, but not them.


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## Unosmom (May 3, 2009)

I like Dr. Becker, I've never really noticed her pushing the promo material until someone pointed it out, regardless shes a breath of fresh air in a vet industry and since she has many fans, I for one appreciate the light she sheds on proper nutrition and holistic preventative approach to pet care.


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

sandi, there's no reason for you not to post here.....and be a divisive voice....we are not robots and there are plenty here who feed kibble as you do or feed a barf type of raw or feed vegan, even.....g'd help me.

i said something about lew olson only because she has found a way to make money and to be pro nutrition beyond what most vets are.....

but kudos to any of them who educated.

perhaps you would want to read orijen's white paper, written in 1998...it's probably one of the most conclusive papers i've read and it's written by a dog food commercial company.

http://files.championpetfoods.com/ORIJEN_White_Paper.pdf

at any rate, i also don't see why bill needed to apologise, which i'm sure won't gain me any points....he just pointed out that, you also promoted your website and book in a thread that you and i were having, i believe....and it's fine...

all the links you provided were helpful and i read them, even yours, though i feed raw...because i always want to see the other side of things...

i don't have to follow what you say nor do you have to listen to what bill says. or agree with him. but bashing karen becker for promoting her stuff when you've promoted yours, is a little hypocritical...and life still goes on and the world still spins on its axis.

you, i can tell, have done quite a bit of research....on many subjects....i'm sure you're open enough to listen to some of the raw feeders in this chat and visit the other sections, like the ones where we talk about diet....for people...and other subjects.


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## sozzle (May 18, 2011)

PDXdogmom said:


> Not all grains cause blood sugar spikes. Check out information on quinoa and millet. They are both complex grains with a fair amount of protein and don't cause blood sugar spikes.


That may be so but I don't think anyone is going to be in any hurry to start adding quinoa and millet to their dogs diet as the price compared to rice/wheat would be prohibitive. (well they are pretty expensive grains in this country).
I also think it would be a shame if you (runwiththewild) left the forum and to be honest I didn't even notice your website until just now when I read your last posts on this thread and I've been reading quite a few of your posts in the last month.


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## chowder (Sep 7, 2008)

magicre said:


> sandi, there's no reason for you not to post here.....and be a divisive voice....we are not robots and there are plenty here who feed kibble as you do or feed a barf type of raw or feed vegan, even.....g'd help me.
> 
> at any rate, i also don't see why bill needed to apologise, which i'm sure won't gain me any points....he just pointed out that, you also promoted your website and book in a thread that you and i were having, i believe....and it's fine...


My only comment on this whole topic is that I'm really really glad this is a forum where people don't have to try real hard to be 'tactful' all the time and worry about watching every word that comes out of their mouths. That would take all the fun out of having our discussions!


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## lozzibear (Sep 13, 2010)

sozzle said:


> I also think it would be a shame if you (runwiththewild) left the forum and to be honest I didn't even notice your website until just now when I read your last posts on this thread and I've been reading quite a few of your posts in the last month.


I agree... I'm not a big poster here, but I do read a lot (call me a stalker if you wish :biggrin and I had never even noticed the link at the bottom of runwiththewild's posts, until it was pointed out here...


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## SerenityFL (Sep 28, 2010)

RawFedDogs said:


> No, it doesn't hurt them. I have never said that it did. What I say is they get very little or no nutritional value from either berries, grass, or any other plant matter.
> 
> Well mine poop ropes and I have yet to figure out how they do it. :smile: The only time they hork it up is when they go rushing out of the house, straight to eating grass and a few minutes later it comes back. It's pretty plain that they they are in distress when they rush out the door.
> 
> ...


Yep. Beef here is around 5 to 6 dollars a pound and the beef hearts are $3 a pound. Ugh. Pork, the cheapest I can find, with very extremely rare exceptions, is hovering around $3 a pound and turkey...depends. Sometimes I can get a deal, sometimes not. Chicken is about the only thing I can get a deal on and they are getting tired of chicken. I've even given in and given them my own meat that I was going to make for myself because I feel bad that they aren't getting much variety these days.

I'm sure someone will tell me that giving them chicken all the time is better than giving them veggies but again, there's no variety and the boy can't handle that much chicken with bone. I have to give him organs more often to balance out the bones. What is his deal with the bones. The girl, that little princess mutt, can handle everything.



> Did anyone ask it? :biggrin:


Just beating to the punch, as they say, just in case. I've seen it asked before...maybe not exactly in that way but it's been asked.



> The only possible harm is if because of the veggies/fruits, you lower the meat/bones/organ volume and I think that is what you are going to do. Veggies/fruits are harmless unless they take up stomach space for needed meat/bones/ organs.


I was actually thinking of trying to find some decent quality food that doesn't cost so dang much but I know will have veggies and fruit in it...hence the discussion. I don't KNOW if I will be able to find something I'm satisfied with, I want to keep feeding them PMR but I'm really not finding the deals that others talk about all the time. It's just not happening.


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## sozzle (May 18, 2011)

Serenity - at the end of the day you have just got to do what you can do and as your finances allow. If in the future you are able to go back to 100% PMR then I am sure you will.
It's not the end of the world by any means.
If it's any consolation, meat here is NOT cheap but I am not on a tight budget and I only have one dog but I still try to shop around as I like a bargain.
I'm sure you'll find something suitable, after all in the USA you have alot more choice in dog foods I would imagine.


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## Caty M (Aug 13, 2010)

Serenity, do you live near the coast of Maine? Can you get fish at a good price.. and will your dogs eat it? I wouldn't see a problem with the diet being up to 50% fish. There are plenty of fish kibbles that dogs do just fine on.


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## MollyWoppy (Mar 19, 2010)

Yeah, Serenity, I was just up your wayish (Eliot and Alfred) a week or so ago. And, I must admit, I was surprised at how much the meat cost in your neck of the woods, in fact it is comparable to my town here and I thought I was hard done by. 
On the other hand, whilst at a supermarket in IL, all I could do was just stand there fuming at how low their meat (and beer) costs. Its just not fair.


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