# Breeder requiring certain foods to be fed per contract?



## flippedstars (May 22, 2010)

I am writing up my contract for my 1st litter of puppies next year (yes, registered; yes, health tested; yes, champion parents; yes, temperamentally sound; yes, I consider them my responsibility for the duration of their life; yes, very very minimally vaccinated at an older age, so on and so forth lol).

I am wondering if it would be over the top to require that my puppies be fed certain foods or diets?

It would include dry options; realistically I do not expect everyone to want to feed raw that also is a great home for one of my puppies...but, I want them on at least a decent kibble (Acana, Fromm, Taste of the Wild Etc), a dehydrated raw such as Ziwipeak, etc. I would include The Honest Kitchen as well as a few other things, with prey model raw and frozen raw diets such as Stella & Chewy's or Nature's Variety being 'preferred' diets.

I know there is no real way I can enforce it though, am I just being crazy? I do 100% believe that nutrition during development drastically affects how the dog turns out. 

I thought about saying they void the health guarantee of the puppies if they choose not to feed a food from the list, but, I don't want to do that because obviously certain problems ARE genetic no matter WHAT you feed...so really there is no way that I can 'enforce' it but at least I can feel better knowing they signed a contract and went home with a list of foods that are available that are also worthwhile?

Forgot to say...puppies are being weaned onto fresh goat's milk mixed Stella & Chewy's pre-made, plenty of opportunity to knaw on and experience RMB's, and ultimately Ziwipeak and will be sent home with a 2.2 lb bag.


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## GoingPostal (Sep 5, 2011)

I know breeders that do require certain foods be fed, but usually it's for the first year, growth issues/concerns kind of thing. I think most people looking for a dog from a breeder like you (not only responsible but naturally reared dogs) would already be feeding a decent diet. People that I know switch from breeder recommendation do because it's a low quality food, they can't get it locally or the dog isn't doing well on it which I don't see being an issue, you've given plenty of options, kibble, raw, premade so they can find what works for them and should be able to feed without cost being an issue with such little dogs even if they have to order food in.


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## hmbutler (Aug 4, 2011)

I think if you wean the pups onto raw, and then explain what they are fed, and discuss it with potential buyers, you probably wont find many problems. You are right, some people just wont be willing to feed raw, but if you explain why you have weaned them onto raw and why you think it is best for the pup, and they still disagree with it, then you can offer them what you think are acceptable alternatives. If they are willing to go to a reputable breeder they are probably people who have thought it through and want a dog for the right reasons, and will care for it in the best way possible. Most people I know who wont switch to raw say it's because their breeder told them to feed whatever it is they are currently feeding - so if you tell people the pups are currently eating raw, and give them a run down of how to continue feeding that way, I think most would probably follow it, especially if this is their only dog.


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## flippedstars (May 22, 2010)

I think part of the appeal of chihuahuas to some people is their pack em up and go ability...if that makes sense. Part of why I don't feed full prey model raw is that on show weekends, it just isn't feasible when I don't even always have a fridge, to feed PMR...so I like having dehydrated alternatives as well. But, I do keep their diets as natural as possible and while I won't wean the puppies onto PMR they will be weaned to raw (as listed above)...

I do worry honestly, that people will do raw 'wrong'. Mess it up. And that can be as bad as a bad food. I will have a handout on PMR with the puppy folders as well as a week of 'sample meals' handout, but I will let people choose within reason obviously how and what they want to feed. It is my hope that if they have NOT done research, the info in the puppy folder as well as convos with me will prompt them to do so.

I'd love to believe only people who have done their research will bump into me, hahaha but my first few pets I just got lucky and found a good breeder and fed crap food for awhile, etc. but, I did start doing my research, moreso tho when I got into showing. Unfortunately I think not 'all' responsible pet owners have done as much research as they should. Thus why I think it is just as important to have 'put it in a bowl' options as well as providing info on PMR. 

You can feed just about anything to a dog as small as a chihuahua for less than it costs to eat out a meal, per month, so people really should not see cost as an object when feeding one, ridiculously enough, I know people that DO. 

I just don't want any of the 'crappy' kibbles fed, and that includes stuff like Royal Canin, grain-heavy kibbles, or kibbles with bad preservatives or horrible 'meat' ingredients. I know a lot of people think foods like Royal Canin, Iams, Science Diet, etc...are great. They really believe that. I have seen the difference it makes in a dog as small as a chi when they have completely available nutrition versus one with fillers...I really don't want my puppies fed 'crap!'


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## flippedstars (May 22, 2010)

I forgot to say that the reason I am putting them on Ziwipeak before they go to their new homes at 16 weeks is because they need to be eating and eating WELL. Chihuahua puppies (well bred ones anyway lol) are very small, and skipping even one meal can put them in hypoglycemic attacks. So, for the welfare of the puppies, I don't want the new owners messing around the first few weeks they have the puppy while it adjusts.


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## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

I think you can educate, but you can't enforce. You are, after all, selling a piece of property and once they pay you the money and take their property the transaction is complete. The only thing you can do is void warranties for not following your guidelines. Or file a civil lawsuit in certain cases.

Your power is before the dog leaves your hands. Ask them to spend X amount of time talking to you about nutrition. Or however you want to do it. 

Just make sure they aren't checking a box on a contract without any getting any real information. Don't just give them a handout they can toss when they get home. The best thing is to actually talk with them.


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## CorgiPaws (Mar 31, 2009)

I put a lot of thought into this as well, and what I determined is that I won't have anything in contract, but since there's so much communication between buyer and breeder, or at least should be, I simply won't sell a puppy to someone if I feel they are not educated to some degree or willing to listen to me on recommendations. 
I won't refuse a pup to a kibble family based on them feeding kibble alone, but do plan to make nutrition a large part of the "interview" for prospective homes. I need to be sure thwy "get it" when it comes to corn and soy packed junk kibble.


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## cprcheetah (Jul 14, 2010)

I think it's a matter of educating. Working for a vet we see lots of puppies and the majority of them are eating what the Breeder recommended whether it's crap or high quality food. I would educate them, and include links and articles as to WHY this/these foods are the best.


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## tem_sat (Jun 20, 2010)

I don't think it would be a bad idea to also include a recommendation to the buyer to visit this forum if he or she needs additional sources for nutritional information.


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## Dude and Bucks Mamma (May 14, 2011)

Personally, I don't like it when puppies are sold with contracts. When I buy a puppy, I want to be able to do what I want with it. I have looked at so many dane breeders in the past that I recently started my search for a breeder last week even though Nick still has at least 1.5 years left in the Navy (we have a 2 dog limit) and Dude is only 8. 

Nearly every dane breeder I have come across has something wrong with the contract. 

-Required spay/neuter
-Don't sell puppies with full registration
-If you choose to keep your dog intact the breeder has the right to use your dog for breeding
-If you choose to keep intact and show then you can ownly co-own the dog with the breeder

I want a dane to keep intact and show but not breed and I want to fully own him. I don't mind some contracts like the ones that state that the dog must be returned to the breeder rather than put into a shelter but some of them just make it too hard to own a dog. It weeds out potential crap owners but it also turns away great owners. 

As far as food... that is another thing I have found difficult regarding contracts. Many of the breeders I have fond have stated in the contract that the puppy MUST be fed Eagle Pack. I asked one breeder if, in the future, should I get a puppy from her, how she would feel about me raw feeding the pup and she straight up told me that she would never sell me a puppy and told me not to contact her again.


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## CorgiPaws (Mar 31, 2009)

Limited Registration I COMPLETELY support. 

Why?
Every Tom, Dick, and Harry thinks they ought to breed their dogs. If everyone handed out full registration on every dog they sold, they would be contributing to overpopulation, big time. A lot of people (also known as idiots) seek out full registration dogs for breeding when they are just out to make money. As the breeder of a pup, I do feel that I have the right to make the call on if that dog should or should not be considered for breeding. Remember, any puppy bought on full registration carries the breeder's name with it. 
If I sell a puppy on LIMITED registration it means: 1. I don't think the puppy has the potential to develop into a breeding-worthy adult. 2. I don't think the potential buyer has the potential to develop into a worthy breeder. LOL. 
I know that not having registration doesn't necessarily stop people from breeding their dogs, but I don't want my name on a litter that I didn't think should be bred in the first place, especially if the pups are peddled off in a Wal Mart parking lot or some crap like that. I don't want MY dogs out there being bred by idiots, and selling on limited registration is one way to deter that from happening.


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## Dude and Bucks Mamma (May 14, 2011)

PuppyPaws said:


> Limited Registration I COMPLETELY support.
> 
> Why?
> Every Tom, Dick, and Harry thinks they ought to breed their dogs. If everyone handed out full registration on every dog they sold, they would be contributing to overpopulation, big time. A lot of people (also known as idiots) seek out full registration dogs for breeding when they are just out to make money. As the breeder of a pup, I do feel that I have the right to make the call on if that dog should or should not be considered for breeding. Remember, any puppy bought on full registration carries the breeder's name with it.
> ...


It completely makes sense how you say it but not everyone who wants to have full registration is a future breeder. I have NO interest in breeding dogs. I love puppies but I don't want a whole litter of them in my house. I am the type who, for the duration of the pregnancy and until the pups are gone, would worry so much about mom and her pups that I would get no sleep. I love females but I have no desire to own one ever again. I would take in a female stray but I would never voluntarily go out and buy a female pup. EVER. I don't want my dogs studded out because I just have no interest in breeding nor do I feel that I understand enough about dog genetics to have any business attempting it. 

I will admit that I am probably part of a very small group of dog owners . Most people who want to show want to eventually breed the dog. Most who want full registration are the same. 

I want a pup with full registration and ownership because I want to show him. That's it. And, being in this very small group, I have come to hate breeder's contracts. Buck doesn't have one. He was also bred by a houndsman and they, themselves, are an entirely different breed of person! haha. 

But you have to think about it. I am not looking at all this from a breeder or future breeder's standpoint. To me, my dogs are not money makers. My dogs are more like money pits...


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## CorgiPaws (Mar 31, 2009)

Dude and Bucks Mamma said:


> It completely makes sense how you say it but not everyone who wants to have full registration is a future breeder. I have NO interest in breeding dogs. I love puppies but I don't want a whole litter of them in my house. I am the type who, for the duration of the pregnancy and until the pups are gone, would worry so much about mom and her pups that I would get no sleep. I love females but I have no desire to own one ever again. I would take in a female stray but I would never voluntarily go out and buy a female pup. EVER. I don't want my dogs studded out because I just have no interest in breeding nor do I feel that I understand enough about dog genetics to have any business attempting it.
> 
> I will admit that I am probably part of a very small group of dog owners . Most people who want to show want to eventually breed the dog. Most who want full registration are the same.
> 
> ...



No, not everyone does... but a huge, huge HUGE majority of those that specifically look for full registration have intent to breed. Unfortunately, this makes it tough to trust someone that says they aren't/won't. This is when it might be in your best interest to make really really good friends with a breeder you like.l I'd say just buy from a show breeder, but then you have all the co-owning BS to deal with.


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## Dude and Bucks Mamma (May 14, 2011)

PuppyPaws said:


> No, not everyone does... but a huge, huge HUGE majority of those that specifically look for full registration have intent to breed. Unfortunately, this makes it tough to trust someone that says they aren't/won't. This is when it might be in your best interest to make really really good friends with a breeder you like.l I'd say just buy from a show breeder, but then you have all the co-owning BS to deal with.


Yea. I found a great breeder who fits all my requirements except the co-owning part. This is all why I started my search now. A Dogue de Bordeaux id another breed we are considering and I have already found a breeder who fits every single one of my requirements. It's actually Mateo's breeder. It's funny because I had bookmarked that breeder before I asked about Mateo. 

I think it will take some time but I'll eventually find a breeder that I like.


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## meggels (May 30, 2010)

So Linsey- are you and/or Natalie ever going to breed? Can I have a Timber baby pulease?


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## Scarlett_O' (May 19, 2011)

If, or when, I do breed I will HIGHLY suggest raw, other wise I will pretty much REQUIRE a few brands, no you cant MAKE people feed soemthing....but you can weed out those who you can tell wont feed it!:wink:

I believe Liz does at least require, or at least weeds out those who wont, grain free...


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## twoisplenty (Nov 12, 2008)

Dude and Bucks Mamma said:


> It completely makes sense how you say it but not everyone who wants to have full registration is a future breeder. I have NO interest in breeding dogs. I love puppies but I don't want a whole litter of them in my house. I am the type who, for the duration of the pregnancy and until the pups are gone, would worry so much about mom and her pups that I would get no sleep. I love females but I have no desire to own one ever again. I would take in a female stray but I would never voluntarily go out and buy a female pup. EVER. I don't want my dogs studded out because I just have no interest in breeding nor do I feel that I understand enough about dog genetics to have any business attempting it.
> 
> I will admit that I am probably part of a very small group of dog owners . Most people who want to show want to eventually breed the dog. Most who want full registration are the same.
> 
> ...


I am not sure what the regulations are with the AKC but with the CKC you can still show a dog with limited registration. 

As for food requirements in a contract, we state that nutrition plays a vital role in the development of your dog. The breeder prefers that a species appropriate raw diet is fed but in the case that this is not feasible or desirable by the client the following grain free foods are suggested.


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## Liz (Sep 27, 2010)

I breed shelties and collies occassionally, and I do require either raw feeding or grain free food, as well as a set minimal vacciantion schedule (though I prefer no vacc) and a different heartworm protocol when necessary. If this is not adhered to I have nullified my guarantee. We had a little female placed with a great family - vet terrified the dad into heartworm meds. Day after taking the meds puppy looses all muscle control and collapses. Quite a few hours later she is fine, this happens three times with vet visits at about $1500 at this point. They finally call me to say she is ill - after a long discussion she is taken off heartworm meds and this has not occurred again in over 8 months. Their contract is nullified. I will not be responsible when they do damage to a very healthy puppy. I don't know exactly what long term effects they will see but it could be very unpleasant. I was very upset when I was told and they were understanding that they had broken our contract and now understood why these restrictions were placed. 

As for limited registration - no puppy goes with full registration unless I am co-owner. For one family I co-owned for three years with them and then turned over the pup. I needed to knwo they were serious about showing and not just looking to breed every heat cycle. They actually just spayed her and she is continuing to show in obedience. Other pups I co-own because I would like to have access them for my own breeding program but cannot keep them all. I am currently waiting for the right placement on a white sheltie for this very reason. I shouldn't keep him forever but I don't want to lose total availability with this line. Anyway, I hope that helps a little. Yo can give info and put requirements but be ready for people to do what they want and you might have to nullify some contracts. It is hard placing puppies. Sometime I wait up to a year to find the right home.


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## tem_sat (Jun 20, 2010)

Liz said:


> I breed shelties and collies occassionally, and I do require either raw feeding or grain free food, as well as a set minimal vacciantion schedule (though I prefer no vacc) and a different heartworm protocol when necessary. If this is not adhered to I have nullified my guarantee. We had a little female placed with a great family - vet terrified the dad into heartworm meds. Day after taking the meds puppy looses all muscle control and collapses. Quite a few hours later she is fine, this happens three times with vet visits at about $1500 at this point. They finally call me to say she is ill - after a long discussion she is taken off heartworm meds and this has not occurred again in over 8 months. Their contract is nullified. I will not be responsible when they do damage to a very healthy puppy. I don't know exactly what long term effects they will see but it could be very unpleasant. I was very upset when I was told and they were understanding that they had broken our contract and now understood why these restrictions were placed.
> 
> As for limited registration - no puppy goes with full registration unless I am co-owner. For one family I co-owned for three years with them and then turned over the pup. I needed to knwo they were serious about showing and not just looking to breed every heat cycle. They actually just spayed her and she is continuing to show in obedience. Other pups I co-own because I would like to have access them for my own breeding program but cannot keep them all. I am currently waiting for the right placement on a white sheltie for this very reason. I shouldn't keep him forever but I don't want to lose total availability with this line. Anyway, I hope that helps a little. Yo can give info and put requirements but be ready for people to do what they want and you might have to nullify some contracts. It is hard placing puppies. Sometime I wait up to a year to find the right home.


Please forgive me for going slightly off topic but, what is your recommended heartworm protocol for a high risk state, such as Texas? Thanks in advance.


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## SpooOwner (Oct 1, 2010)

I know several breeders who have required reading for people on their waitlist on topics like clicker training, positive reinforcement, health, and diet.  It seems like something you can only get away with if you have a lot of interest.


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## flippedstars (May 22, 2010)

Interesting comments on spay/neuter. I have it in my contract that puppies must be altered by 9 months - most breeders do 6. The chihuahua growth plates close at 8-10 months, so hopefully growth plates will be closed by the time the pups are altered. However if a knowledgeable pet owner comes along and expresses interest in waiting until the puppy is older or more mature, I would write that into the contract for them. Unfortunately, a lot of people don't know how to contain intact pets. I think it's best to not spay/neuter even in toy breeds until they are a year old, but I also know not everyone wants to deal with a heat cycle or a male marking. I do support limited registration - some people, while excellent pet owners, do not need the temptation of being 'able' to breed and register puppies. 

Since I likely will only have 2-4 puppies available per year as pets, I do feel I have the ability to be selective in where they go. I don't think requiring certain food to be fed is 'over-the-top'. 

Any puppies I sell for breeding/show will be over a year old and will have cleared the CHIC health test requirements for the breed. That is the only way I feel that I can ensure I know the dogs I send out for breeding are healthy. Not enough people are health testing in my breed, so, that is my way of ensuring MY dogs are. Ideally tests are repeated at 2 years of age, but, I think screening at 1 year of age and registering the tests is enough for my peace of mind. If they fail? Then they would be spay/neutered and placed in a pet home. If it is a dog I want finished, then yes, I will co-own and sign off once championship is completed. But, I won't be over-bearing about it. It's just that if I send out a young adult that in my very picky opinion deserves a championship title, and I produce a limited number of dogs, I want it finished. Chances are I will keep any I get like that for the first few years though. Since my main goal is to produce my own sound, healthy show dogs, it's just logical I'd keep them unless I get too many (and am forced to thank my lucky stars LOL).

The other thing that I will require is if someone wants to use my stud, they must have the health tests completed on their bitch and register the results. Aren't I wicked? ha ha. But seriously, I do not want my name on 'crap'. Enough breeders are breeding 'crap'.


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## flippedstars (May 22, 2010)

Liz said:


> I breed shelties and collies occassionally, and I do require either raw feeding or grain free food, as well as a set minimal vacciantion schedule (though I prefer no vacc) and a different heartworm protocol when necessary. If this is not adhered to I have nullified my guarantee. We had a little female placed with a great family - vet terrified the dad into heartworm meds. Day after taking the meds puppy looses all muscle control and collapses. Quite a few hours later she is fine, this happens three times with vet visits at about $1500 at this point. They finally call me to say she is ill - after a long discussion she is taken off heartworm meds and this has not occurred again in over 8 months. Their contract is nullified. I will not be responsible when they do damage to a very healthy puppy. I don't know exactly what long term effects they will see but it could be very unpleasant. I was very upset when I was told and they were understanding that they had broken our contract and now understood why these restrictions were placed.
> 
> As for limited registration - no puppy goes with full registration unless I am co-owner. For one family I co-owned for three years with them and then turned over the pup. I needed to knwo they were serious about showing and not just looking to breed every heat cycle. They actually just spayed her and she is continuing to show in obedience. Other pups I co-own because I would like to have access them for my own breeding program but cannot keep them all. I am currently waiting for the right placement on a white sheltie for this very reason. I shouldn't keep him forever but I don't want to lose total availability with this line. Anyway, I hope that helps a little. Yo can give info and put requirements but be ready for people to do what they want and you might have to nullify some contracts. It is hard placing puppies. Sometime I wait up to a year to find the right home.



I am so with you - I would rather wait for the right home. I have spent a lot of time researching vacs and will do Parvo at 9 weeks and distemper/adenovirus at 14 weeks. Another Parvo at 15 weeks, and that's it. If puppy buyers want to do one set at 18 weeks, I guess that is fine but I hate that vets only have the combos. I would love more info on why you choose not to vaccinate at all and how you handle potential exposure to yuckies out there - I am not ready to not vaccinate at all, but do feel its ridiculous to start at 5 or 6 weeks FFS. 

I also only do HW in the warm months every 45 days. We had a dog get HW as a kid and I just cannot stand not protecting them from that.


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## Caty M (Aug 13, 2010)

I would put in the contract that they feed raw, and go over it hugely with potential puppy buyers. Invite them over for feeding/prep time. Give a huge handout on prey model raw. Direct them to the forum/website and stress how awesome it is. Show them your dog's sparkling white teeth. If you give enough information most people will choose raw I'd think.


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## PDXdogmom (Jun 30, 2010)

I think the goal is to educate about nutrition and recommend a variety of foods and feeding styles. Mandating really turns people off and doesn't take into account individual circumstances.


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## KittyKat (Feb 11, 2011)

This is something i have mulled over a bit... I worry about finding the right people, people who will do right by their dogs. As far as I know though... a contract is really worth the paper it is written on. I think more of it is really knowing the people you are dealing with. 

I mean, I would love dog owners who would feed raw, who would be up for using more holistic methods with their dogs, share pictures on facebook with me... among plenty of other things.... would I be able to find dog owners like that?


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## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

When I signed all the paperwork for my dogs through rescue groups, one lady candidly told me they can't enforce any of it. They just put it in there in hopes that people follow the guidelines.

But then again, that rescue group sued Ellen DeGeneres for giving away her rescue dog and won, even though they pretty much got destroyed in the process.


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## CorgiPaws (Mar 31, 2009)

xellil said:


> When I signed all the paperwork for my dogs through rescue groups, one lady candidly told me they can't enforce any of it. They just put it in there in hopes that people follow the guidelines.
> 
> But then again, that rescue group sued Ellen DeGeneres for giving away her rescue dog and won, even though they pretty much got destroyed in the process.


A well written breeder's contract is very much so enforceable. The hard part is proving they broke it when it comes to certain things, like feeding regulations.


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## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

Yes, and that's what makes it unenforceable. 

Of course, you can stop all that on the front end, by making sure dogs go to the right people. Really, a seller only has real power before the sale.

If Rebels' rescue group contacted me at this point and asked me to prove anything about my dog, I'd tell them to pound sand no matter what the contract says. And they couldn't do a thing about it because it would cost them legal fees.


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## flippedstars (May 22, 2010)

CorgiPaws said:


> A well written breeder's contract is very much so enforceable. The hard part is proving they broke it when it comes to certain things, like feeding regulations.


What if you tell them to save receipts from food they buy?


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## hmbutler (Aug 4, 2011)

flippedstars said:


> What if you tell them to save receipts from food they buy?



I honestly think that would be going too far. I know you have the best intentions, and knowing what I know now, I'd be very willing to sign a contract to feed a certain way etc etc, but I'd probably look for another breeder if one told me I had to keep receipts, like they were going to audit me or something. Once I have the puppy, I'd want to be able to do whatever I want, however I want, with said puppy. I would be happy to give updates, send pictures etc, but I think all the "co-own" and constant checking up would put me off for sure.


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## Dude and Bucks Mamma (May 14, 2011)

hmbutler said:


> I honestly think that would be going too far. I know you have the best intentions, and knowing what I know now, I'd be very willing to sign a contract to feed a certain way etc etc, but I'd probably look for another breeder if one told me I had to keep receipts, like they were going to audit me or something. Once I have the puppy, I'd want to be able to do whatever I want, however I want, with said puppy. I would be happy to give updates, send pictures etc, but I think all the "co-own" and constant checking up would put me off for sure.


The co-owning and constant checking up on me put me off of a dane breeder. In their contract it stated that those who were shown could only be co-owned and every puppy owner had to check in every 6 months for the duration of the dog's life. If not, they would come to your house. I would have them at my house every 6 months because I wouldn't remember to email them with pictures.


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## flippedstars (May 22, 2010)

I guess it comes down to selling to people you can trust, I guess. And I'm sure providing recommendations won't hurt. Checking in every 6 months is kinda ridiculous lol.


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## Dude and Bucks Mamma (May 14, 2011)

I am more than happy to keep in contact with my pup's breeders. I talk to Buck's breeder every once in a while. Either he asks how Buck is doing and asks for pictures to see how he is growing up or I just email him some. But, really, telling me that I HAVE to email or call you every 6 months for 5-12 years is too much for me. I think you will be able to judge those who inquire about your pups well enough to prevent them from going to neglectful owners.


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## meggels (May 30, 2010)

I MOVED IN with the woman I got Murph from! 

Is that not normal?

Kidding, kidding 


I tried to email his actual breeder to let her know how loved he is, with pics, and she never responded to me lol.


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