# Concern over how much protein? :S



## Pinnacle (Aug 16, 2010)

Hello there. 

I recently rescued a 4 y/o corgi & GSD mix.
She's currently on the Purnia junk, which is what she was fed in the pound, and I'm a bit confused as to what I should switch her to.

After doing some homework, I understand the most 'recommended' brands seem to be the grain-free kibble with ~40% protein.
Which is great, I suppose, for a working dog. But does the average city dog really require kibble with such high % of kibble?
If she doesn't utilize the majority of the protein, its just extra strain on her kidneys, no?

She gets ~40 mins of a rigorous run with me along with another hour of outdoor playtime in the evening.

Any opinions as to whether I should feed her 25%, 30%, or 40% protein kibble?
Or is it just a matter of trail and error and what the dog does best on?

Thank you!


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## RawFedDogs (Jun 16, 2008)

Pinnacle said:


> Feed her the highest protein/fat food you can find, just feed less of it. There are 4 main "components" of foods: protein, fat, carbs, & moisture. Dogs have no (zero) need for carbs. Misture is pretty constant at 10% in most all kibbles. That leaves protein and fat as the two variables that are important. Soooo the more protein & fat and the less carbs, the better.
> 
> It's really not the percentage of protein and fat that is important, its the total volume of protein and fat. So feed him less volume and she will be great. :smile:


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## Pinnacle (Aug 16, 2010)

But if I fed my dog 800 cal/day of 20% protein kibble and switched her to one with 40%, I can't just feed her less of it because I'd also be reducing the amount of calories I feed her.

I understand why /portions/ would work like that, but not when considering calories.


Or am I thinking too much? 

Edit: The whole reason I brough this up is because my vet told me some formulas are too 'protein rich' for moderately active dogs.
But then again, this is the same vet the recommeded me Science Diet. P:


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## RawFedDogs (Jun 16, 2008)

Pinnacle said:


> Or am I thinking too much?


Yeah, I think you are overthinking. Most of the calories you get from the low protein/high carb foods are sugar which are not "good" calories. Remember that dogs have no dietary need for carbs at all. My dogs haven't eaten a carb in 8 years and they are both healthy. Actually my 5 yo Dane, Thor, hasn't had any carbs in his life.

Sooo, the less protein in a kibble its automatically more useless carbs.



> Edit: The whole reason I brough this up is because my vet told me some formulas are too 'protein rich' for moderately active dogs.
> But then again, this is the same vet the recommeded me Science Diet. P:


The last place in the world you want to get canine nutrition advice from is a vet. It's a shame but it's a fact.


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## Pinnacle (Aug 16, 2010)

Wait. But a calorie is still a calorie, regardless of where is comes from.

I can feed my dog 2 cups of garbage, which adds up to 600 cals.
Or I can feed my dog 1 cup of 'quality' kibble, which, being more calorie dense, would still add up to 600 cals.

I can't suddenly give her 1/2 cup, saying 'oh theres more % protein in this one' because then I'd only be feeding her 300 cals. :/

Right?
Or not. Maybe you're right all along, and I just need to wrap my head around it. :redface:

In the meantime, I'll go grab a bag of Acana and see how she fairs on that.


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## luvMyBRT (Mar 8, 2010)

Good call with the Acana.

Get a bag. Look at the feeding guidelines and what is recommended for her weight. Start out by feeding her the LOWEST that it shows. Keep an eye on her body condition. Feed less if she puts on weight, feed more if she starts to look thin.

Don't over think it...:biggrin:


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## RawFedDogs (Jun 16, 2008)

Pinnacle said:


> Wait. But a calorie is still a calorie, regardless of where is comes from.


No. Feed your dogs enough grass to produce 600 cals and see how long they survive. There are more than enough calories in protein and fat to take care of your dog's needs. Calories from plants just aren't absorbed by a dog's body like they are from animal sources. Your argument assumes that every calorie that goes into a dogs mouth are absorbed into the body. 



> I can't suddenly give her 1/2 cup, saying 'oh theres more % protein in this one' because then I'd only be feeding her 300 cals. :/


You can feed 600 calories of garbage, which 200 maybe be absorbed by the body or you can feed 300 calories of animal product which 250 may be absorbed by the body. See the difference? It's not what goes in the mouth, its what is absorbed by the body.

Calories from carbs must be fermented in the body before being absorbed. The food doesn't stay in a dog's body long enough to ferment. There is a LARGE difference between a human injesting calories and a dog. Dog's just don't handle carbs well at all. They are designed to eat meat, bones, and organs. They get all the nutrition they need from those items. They need nothing else. 

Dog food companies MUST put plant matter into their product both for cost control and for sticking the kibbles together into the little nuggets.



> Maybe you're right all along, and I just need to wrap my head around it. :redface:


Hopefully you will understand a little better now. I think you are applying human physiology to dogs and dogs are another species whose body operates a good bit different than ours.


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## whiteleo (Sep 7, 2008)

Pinnacle, you will start to understand the difference when you start looking at the poop, what comes out of a dog that is fed garbage food is a much higher output then a dog that is fed a quality kibble. Alot comes out of a dog fed garbage because they don't utilize half of what is in the kibble but when you look at the poop of a quality fed dog say that is fed Orijen or Acana the output is much less because they utiliize the ingredients (protein) and not fillers.


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## Pinnacle (Aug 16, 2010)

Guilty as charged for anthropomorphism . :redface:

& Yes, that is much clearer now. It didn't occur to me that absorption rates would differ.
Thanks for that. 

And I'll be sure to keep an eye on her figure (and poop ) over the next couple of weeks.
Hopefully she makes a nice transition over from her current food.


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## schtuffy (May 17, 2010)

I love penguins and I love your avatar! :biggrin:


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## Pinnacle (Aug 16, 2010)

Ha, and I love yours~
/steals Louis

Anyway, I was surprised to see the price differences between Acana and Orijen. The large bag of Acana was $50 as opposed to $75 for Orijen. 

I don't think Sapho's moving up the food chain anytime soon. @[email protected]


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## kevin bradley (Aug 9, 2009)

Pinnacle said:


> Ha, and I love yours~
> /steals Louis
> 
> Anyway, I was surprised to see the price differences between Acana and Orijen. The large bag of Acana was $50 as opposed to $75 for Orijen.
> ...



thats a bit extreme. Most of the prices I've seen on Acana/Orijen are about a $10 difference...$50 for Acana and $60 for Orijen. I'm talking about their run o the mill Chicken formula.


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## Pinnacle (Aug 16, 2010)

I'm referring to the chicken one, as well. The regional red is $89. :frown:

Ehh. I think its because its the only retailer in my area that carries Orijen.
Anyone within a 30km radius HAS to come to them.


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## kevin bradley (Aug 9, 2009)

Pinn,

Check out heartypet.com.....they have 50% off shipping right now I believe. 

I think PFD might have some nice deal going also...i think its 20 bucks off 100. 

good luck.


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## Unosmom (May 3, 2009)

It depends on individual dog really, as much as I'd like to keep feeding Uno Orijen, he just doesent do well on it, he's moderately active, but still packs on weight very easily, I cut back to only 1 cup a day (which is very little for 60 lb dog) which kept him in decent shape, but because of how little he ate, I think it left him unsattisfied, so he started scavenging, counter surfing, eating poop outside. I decided to go back to feeding him more but with slightly lower protein. 

Right now hes on wellness core, I want to try blue buffalo wilderness next and of course he loves Acana prov. (but its hard to come by around here).


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## Pinnacle (Aug 16, 2010)

Unosmom said:


> I cut back to only 1 cup a day (which is very little for 60 lb dog) which kept him in decent shape, but because of how little he ate, I think it left him unsattisfied, so he started scavenging, counter surfing, eating poop outside. I decided to go back to feeding him more but with slightly lower protein.
> 
> Right now hes on wellness core, I want to try blue buffalo wilderness next and of course he loves Acana prov. (but its hard to come by around here).


I think I'd end up with the same problem on Orijen. Not that I can afford it. :tongue:
& The only reason I dislike blue buffalo is when I gave a sample to Sappho, she didn't eat any of the small, darker pieces. :/

& Thank you Kevin, but I live in Canada. I don't think too many online retailers ship there at reasonable price. :smile:


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## whiteleo (Sep 7, 2008)

But Acana and Orijen are made in Canada you should be able to find some decent prices for the product, I would opt for the Acana grasslands if it were my dog and I fed kibble, this is what I have always fed my rescues before transitioning them to raw. Good Luck!


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## Pinnacle (Aug 16, 2010)

My thoughts exactly!
But I do live in a small town and only have one pet food store. And the store in the town next to us doesn't carry Orijen and only sells Acana for a buck less. :frown:
Ah well, I need to start cutting back on my morning donuts to avoid breaking my budget. 


On a different note, when I got a coop placement near Champion's plant last semester, I'd see tons of trucks carrying fish and meats go up north daily.
Which is comforting. :biggrin:


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## Unosmom (May 3, 2009)

if youre in canada also look into horizon legacy.


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## Pinnacle (Aug 16, 2010)

Horizon is $70 there. :/
Bleh, I need to tweek up my monthly budget. >.>

Anyway, I mixed 25% of Acana with Purina yesterday, and today Sapho's poop rocketed out of her. D:
(Which, btw, a family took the time to watch me scrape up )

I assume I shouldve started with a lower %?
Is it usually difficult to switch from something like Purina?


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## whiteleo (Sep 7, 2008)

Well Purina is definitely full of fillers and Acana is not, so do a little slower change over and mix alittle less Acana in until the poop is normal, when its normal then add alittle more until your feeding 100% Acana


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## luvMyBRT (Mar 8, 2010)

Remember your switching from a really crappy food to a really good food. Purina which is grain inclusive and full of fillers and by products to Acana which has top notch ingredients and is a grain free kibble. I would go a bit slower. You may have to transition over a couple weeks if she is that sensitive.


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