# Canidae grain free ALS



## Guest (Dec 2, 2009)

Does anyone here feed Canidae grain-free?

My local feed store stocks it regularly. It would be much easier for me to get than Acana grain-free (which is what I've been feeding over the last several weeks) and Horizon Legacy grain-free (I got a free 8 pound bag, thanks to a tip by Unosmom)

Canidae grain-free has 34% protein which is good.

After we're out of the Horizon and Acana, I think I will start feeding the grain-free Canidae.

Any feedback?


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## Guest (Dec 2, 2009)

Ingredients for the Canidae ALS grain-free formula: 

Chicken meal, turkey meal, lamb, potatoes, peas, chicken fat (preserved with mixed tocopherols), lamb meal, ocean fish meal, tomato pomace, natural flavor, choline chloride, suncured alfalfa meal, inulin (from chicory root), lecithin, sage extract, cranberries, beta-carotene, rosemary extract, sunflower oil, yucca schidigera extract, dried enterococcus faecium fermentation product, dried lactobacillus acidophilus fermentation product, dried lactobacillus casei fermentation product, dried lactobacillus plantarum fermentation product, dried trichoderma longibrachiatum fermentation extract, vitamin E supplement, iron proteinate, zinc proteinate, copper proteinate, ferrous sulfate, zinc sulfate, copper sulfate, potassium iodide, thiamine mononitrate, manganese proteinate, manganous oxide, ascorbic acid, vitamin A supplement, biotin, calcium pantothenate, manganese sulfate, sodium selenite, pyridoxine hydrochloride (vitamin B6), vitamin B12 supplement, riboflavin, vitamin D3 supplement, folic acid, cobalt proteinate, papaya, pineapple.


In addition, Canidae offers a grain-free salmon formula.


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## Unosmom (May 3, 2009)

The chicken one looks fine, but a while back I was looking at the fish formula and it looks like theyre using potato protein to bulk up the protein content since fish is expensive to use, so I would pass on that one.


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## malluver1005 (Nov 15, 2009)

LabbieMama said:


> Ingredients for the Canidae ALS grain-free formula:
> 
> Chicken meal, turkey meal, lamb, potatoes, peas, chicken fat (preserved with mixed tocopherols), lamb meal, ocean fish meal, tomato pomace, natural flavor, choline chloride, suncured alfalfa meal, inulin (from chicory root), lecithin, sage extract, cranberries, beta-carotene, rosemary extract, sunflower oil, yucca schidigera extract, dried enterococcus faecium fermentation product, dried lactobacillus acidophilus fermentation product, dried lactobacillus casei fermentation product, dried lactobacillus plantarum fermentation product, dried trichoderma longibrachiatum fermentation extract, vitamin E supplement, iron proteinate, zinc proteinate, copper proteinate, ferrous sulfate, zinc sulfate, copper sulfate, potassium iodide, thiamine mononitrate, manganese proteinate, manganous oxide, ascorbic acid, vitamin A supplement, biotin, calcium pantothenate, manganese sulfate, sodium selenite, pyridoxine hydrochloride (vitamin B6), vitamin B12 supplement, riboflavin, vitamin D3 supplement, folic acid, cobalt proteinate, papaya, pineapple.
> 
> ...


What is the difference between "meal" instead of just chicken or turkey...? And which is better...?


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## SuZQuzie (Nov 26, 2009)

malluver1005 said:


> What is the difference between "meal" instead of just chicken or turkey...? And which is better...?


Meal is defined as the physical form of an ingredient which has been ground or otherwise reduced in particle size. Meal is usually dried as well and consists of over 90% dry matter compared to 30-40% dry matter usually found in meat. 

Let's use an example to show what this actually means.

You have a feed that states it is "70% real chicken." 

If that real meat is chicken, then is actually only contains about 25% chicken. The rest is water of that 70% is water. 

If the real meat is chicken meal, then is actually contains 63% and you only lose 7% of the chicken to water.

If you have the two feeds available and they seemed equal in every other way, go with the chicken meal. :smile:


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## RawFedDogs (Jun 16, 2008)

malluver1005 said:


> What is the difference between "meal" instead of just chicken or turkey...? And which is better...?


Meal is the ground up part of the carcass that is left over after all human editable parts have been removed. It's basically ground up garbage. It's usually the chicken frame that is ground into a powder. 

The frame is the body minus the wings, legs, thighs, and any meat that can be removed. It's basically a rib cage with what little meat remains on it after everything has been removed. I used to buy chicken frames to feed my dogs for 14 cents/lb. which was about half what I paid for backs at the time and backs are not good quality parts. There is non quality meat in chicken or turkey meal. All that has already been removed for human consumption.

Chicken by-product meal is the ground up head, beak, feet, intestines, bone etc. It's everything that can't be sold anywhere else. 

There is no such thing as human quality chicken meal or any other meal. Anytime a kibble company touts their food as human quality and it contains meals, they are lying to you.

ETA: Meals are measured in dry weight because they are moslty bone which doesn't hold water anyway.


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## SuZQuzie (Nov 26, 2009)

I just looked at the ingredients list of Canidae and noticed that it contained chelated mineral supplements! Those are absolutely fabulous things are the most viable type of mineral supplement since they are in the same form found in most founds. I haven't seen that before except in specific mineral supplements, but never in feeds. Very impressive.

Usually, chelated minerals are the ones that are listed "[mineral] proteinate". 

The other two forms are organic and inorganic. It depends on the individual mineral-containing compound to determine which is more bioavailable. Chelated is the best, though.


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## SuZQuzie (Nov 26, 2009)

RawFedDogs said:


> Meal is the ground up part of the carcass that is left over after all human editable parts have been removed. It's basically ground up garbage. It's usually the chicken frame that is ground into a powder.
> 
> The frame is the body minus the wings, legs, thighs, and any meat that can be removed. It's basically a rib cage with what little meat remains on it after everything has been removed. I used to buy chicken frames to feed my dogs for 14 cents/lb. which was about half what I paid for backs at the time and backs are not good quality parts. There is non quality meat in chicken or turkey meal. All that has already been removed for human consumption.
> 
> ...


Nope, nope, nope. The term for meal that contains bone in it is "meat with bone meal." Unless it says "with bone," legally, there can't be bone in it.

Meat meal is usually dry-rendered which is when the residues of animal tissues are cooked in an open vessel till most of the water is evaporated. THAT is why it has the high amount of dry matter. I, myself, have made porcine meal. No bones present, otherwise it would have been porcine with bone meal. :smile: The meat for meal came from bruised portions of the pig, trimmings, and miscolored meat (primarily PSE meat, which stands for "pale, soft, exudative." NOTHING is wrong with it other than it not being the right color. When it comes to meat, consumers are obsessed with color.) 

What do you mean they are measured in dry weight?


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## malluver1005 (Nov 15, 2009)

Isn't it a lot of carbs though? I just saw and it has 26.90%...


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## SuZQuzie (Nov 26, 2009)

malluver1005 said:


> Isn't it a lot of carbs though? I just saw and it has 26.90%...


Maybe a bit.

Other grain-frees:

Orijen 20.0% (max)
EVO 12.0% (max)
Acana Grain-Free 26/0% (max)

Can't find any others.


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## malluver1005 (Nov 15, 2009)

SuZQuzie said:


> Maybe a bit.
> 
> Other grain-frees:
> 
> ...


I really like Evo because the carbs are low and I want to give it a try, but the fat is 22% in the turkey and red meat formulas. A bit high...


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## RawFedDogs (Jun 16, 2008)

SuZQuzie said:


> Nope, nope, nope. The term for meal that contains bone in it is "meat with bone meal." Unless it says "with bone," legally, there can't be bone in it.


Yep, yep, yep ... maybe what you say for pork meal is correct. My brother has been in the chicken business for close to 40 years. He owns 16 chicken houses. Each house contains around 50,000 chickens. He knows chickens and chicken processing. I get my information from him.



> I, myself, have made porcine meal. No bones present, otherwise it would have been porcine with bone meal.


But you are not mass producing it and having it hauled off to the dog food company by the tractor trailer loads daily.



> The meat for meal came from bruised portions of the pig, trimmings, and miscolored meat (primarily PSE meat, which stands for "pale, soft, exudative." NOTHING is wrong with it other than it not being the right color. When it comes to meat, consumers are obsessed with color.)


Yes, what you are saying is that the use the parts of the pig that can't be sold for any other purpose. The garbage. It's the same with the chicken industry. However, there is not much left of a chicken that can't be sold elsewhere except bone. The chicken frame. Wings, legs, thighs, quarters, breasts, backs are are sold for human consumption. Whats left? The frame. Of course there are heads, feet, and the insides that aren't eaten by humans such as intestines and lungs but that would comprise chicken by-product meal.



> What do you mean they are measured in dry weight?


As you said in your previous post. Meat is contains about 70% water. It is measured as wet weight which includes the weight of the water it contains. Chicken meal contains no water and can't really absorb water so it is measured by dry weight (it's dry when it's weighed and has no water to add to the weight). You actually get more stuff per pound in the meals.


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## RawFedDogs (Jun 16, 2008)

malluver1005 said:


> I really like Evo because the carbs are low and I want to give it a try, but the fat is 22% in the turkey and red meat formulas. A bit high...


Don't worry about fat. It's not harmful to dogs like it is humans.


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## SuZQuzie (Nov 26, 2009)

malluver1005 said:


> I really like Evo because the carbs are low and I want to give it a try, but the fat is 22% in the turkey and red meat formulas. A bit high...


For some dogs, that may be a good thing, such as reproductive bitches or working dogs. For the most part, the only problem with high fat is that it can cause obesity if the energy isn't utilized (duh). 

It is easy to see if the fat level of the feed is too high by watching their poop; too much fat will cause fatty stools.

Since dogs can use fats to supply 25-50% of their daily caloric needs, I think 22% is a fine number and I would feel comfortable feeding Evo to my dogs.


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## malluver1005 (Nov 15, 2009)

SuZQuzie said:


> For some dogs, that may be a good thing, such as reproductive bitches or working dogs. For the most part, the only problem with high fat is that it can cause obesity if the energy isn't utilized (duh).
> 
> It is easy to see if the fat level of the feed is too high by watching their poop; too much fat will cause fatty stools.
> 
> Since dogs can use fats to supply 25-50% of their daily caloric needs, I think 22% is a fine number and I would feel comfortable feeding Evo to my dogs.


What exactly do you mean by fatty stools. Greasy or runny, or just big and fat...?


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## SuZQuzie (Nov 26, 2009)

RawFedDogs said:


> Yep, yep, yep ... maybe what you say for pork meal is correct. My brother has been in the chicken business for close to 40 years. He owns 16 chicken houses. Each house contains around 50,000 chickens. He knows chickens and chicken processing. I get my information from him.
> 
> But you are not mass producing it and having it hauled off to the dog food company by the tractor trailer loads daily.
> 
> Yes, what you are saying is that the use the parts of the pig that can't be sold for any other purpose. The garbage. It's the same with the chicken industry. However, there is not much left of a chicken that can't be sold elsewhere except bone. The chicken frame. Wings, legs, thighs, quarters, breasts, backs are are sold for human consumption. Whats left? The frame. Of course there are heads, feet, and the insides that aren't eaten by humans such as intestines and lungs but that would comprise chicken by-product meal.


I looked up the AAPFO definition of chicken meal. It was different from meat meal. Chicken meal is a "dry rendered product from a combination of clean flesh and skin with or without accompanying bone, derived from whole carcasses of chicken thereof, exclusive of feathers, heads, feet and entrails". My apologies.

Meat processing always involves hand labor to harvest the meat off the bone. There is no other way to do it. Even when one is shipping out truck loads of meat. I went on a tour of Foster Farms. :biggrin:

I know lots of people that eat chicken feet. :smile: Then again, I am in a college town and colleges seem to attract those of Asian descent.


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## SuZQuzie (Nov 26, 2009)

malluver1005 said:


> What exactly do you mean by fatty stools. Greasy or runny, or just big and fat...?


Hahaha, you reminded me of my BF who likes to announce that he successfully passed a "fatty log." Ahhh, the romance. 

I meant more greasy and usually stinkier than normal poo and light in color. They can be loose, but not like diarrhea.


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## RawFedDogs (Jun 16, 2008)

SuZQuzie said:


> I know lots of people that eat chicken feet. :smile: Then again, I am in a college town and colleges seem to attract those of Asian descent.


Yes, you can get chicken feet in some grocery stores. I guess that makes them human quality. I know a lot of raw feeders that feed them to their dogs.


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## malluver1005 (Nov 15, 2009)

RawFedDogs said:


> Yes, you can get chicken feet in some grocery stores. I guess that makes them human quality. I know a lot of raw feeders that feed them to their dogs.


I'm going shopping for chicken feet tomorrow for Aspen...Thanks!!! I never knew some grocery stores had them...


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## SuZQuzie (Nov 26, 2009)

malluver1005 said:


> I'm going shopping for chicken feet tomorrow for Aspen...Thanks!!! I never knew some grocery stores had them...


Try Food4Less. That's where my friend's get them.

I tried them once... they're crunchy. :tongue:


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