# Chicken as your only protein source?



## murbanski (Sep 25, 2012)

So I'm currently feeding my two, five month old puppies kibble. I have always wanted to do raw and I believe raw to be the healthiest alternative to kibble.
I have a very tight budget and I know variety is the key to having a healthy and well rounded diet. But for right now chicken and turkey meat (and offal) are really the only things I can afford to feed right now. So would it be okay if I fed just chicken and turkey RMB's, offal, muscle meat, etc. but fed a complete vitamin/mineral supplement mixed in with some canned tripe? I know if I fed a well rounded diet with different meats I wouldn't need the supplement, but like I said money is tight right now. 

I have access to really great chicken and turkey meat. Organic, free range, no antibiotics, etc. 

Here is the supplement I was thinking about using:

Wholistic Canine Complete All-In-One Dog Supplement, Human-Grade, Organic

And here is the tripe I was thinking about feeding:

Tripett Tripett Advanced Skin and Coat Beef Tripe Duck and Salmon Canned Dog Food | PetFlow.com


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## naturalfeddogs (Jan 6, 2011)

I think as long as you are supplementing, and being sure to add organ in, you should be fine for short term. I know what it is like to be short on money, and I have had to do the same as you in the past as well for about three weeks at a time. If you can also add some beef liver it would be even better. You do what you have to do, and it's still better than kibble, IMO. But, do try to add other stuff in there as you can.


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## sassymaxmom (Dec 7, 2008)

If you have access to lots of chicken/turkey hearts and gizzards then the diet would be much better too. The supplement you are using hasn't an analysis of mineral and vitamin content and the tripe isn't a complete feed so some of the minor minerals like zinc may be low with just bony chicken, tripe and the supplement but chicken/turkey hearts and gizzards are quite good in that respect. Try to keep bone intake down once dogs are used to the new diet and you would be fine. Use more chicken liver than turkey liver, for some reason turkey liver is exceedingly high in vitamin A and raw fed dogs get more than enough A from any liver anyway.


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## BeagleCountry (Jan 20, 2012)

It is understandable that you are eager to start feeding raw. Remember, it is Prey Model Raw. The idea is to attempt to duplicate what animals would eat in the wild which would be primarily red meat, not chicken or turkey which is white meat. If it were adult dogs that had been raw fed for several months there would be little concern if used short term, but starting pups out on an unbalanced diet with unknown percentages in a vitamin/mineral supplement could cause irreparable harm.

Until your financial situation improves consider alternatives. With kibble you have approx. 20% wiggle room before messing up the diet. Feed 20% balanced raw with the resources you have and 80% of a premium 4 or 5 star kibble. You will need to do some analysis and math as many brands of kibble are high in phosphorus which comes from bone. You do not want to feed too much especially if it is a large breed dog or too little for all breeds. Rotate kibble that has various red meat sources. There should be no harm if chicken or turkey is the forth or fifth ingredient. With 20%/80% feeding a supplement should not be used. Be careful of overfeeding fat soluble vitamins.

50% raw/50% kibble is an option. Do the nutrient analysis to assure the pups are receiving a balanced diet. Again, be careful with fat soluble vitamins.

Best Dry Grain Free Dog Foods

Request the Nutrient Analysis from the dog food manufacturer and the manufacturer of the Wholistic Canine supplement.

Download the New Personal Raw Feeding Guide Spreadsheet from the link below. The required nutrients for a raw diet are already entered. There is also info on the nutrients of various protein sources under the second tab.
PERSONAL RAW FEEDING GUIDE (New and Improved) - Raw Food Diet Forum

Additional nutrient info can be found at USDA National Nutrient Database.
NDL/FNIC Food Composition Database Home Page

While doing this request freezer burned or out of date meat from friends/family/co-workers and on CraigsList. Shop sales and watch the clearance bin at grocery stores. Once the freezer is stocked with various protein sources begin feeding 100% raw. Keep seeking meat to keep an ample supply.

ETA: Hopefully, Liz will be along soon. She is a very reputable breeder who feeds raw. I think, but am not certain, that there have been times that she has fed primarily chicken, but it has been short term. She can provide an experienced opinion on how well your idea would work with pups and for what length of time.

In the meantime, what breed are the pups and what brand of kibble are you feeding?

I don't want you to have health consequences or a vet to use your pups as examples of dogs fed an unbalanced raw diet.


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## Sheltielover25 (Jan 18, 2011)

BeagleCountry said:


> It is understandable that you are eager to start feeding raw. Remember, it is Prey Model Raw. The idea is to attempt to duplicate what animals would eat in the wild which would be primarily red meat, not chicken or turkey which is white meat. If it were adult dogs that had been raw fed for several months there would be little concern if used short term, but starting pups out on an unbalanced diet with unknown percentages in a vitamin/mineral supplement could cause irreparable harm.
> 
> Until your financial situation improves consider alternatives. With kibble you have approx. 20% wiggle room before messing up the diet. Feed 20% balanced raw with the resources you have and 80% of a premium 4 or 5 star kibble. You will need to do some analysis and math as many brands of kibble are high in phosphorus which comes from bone. You do not want to feed too much especially if it is a large breed dog or too little for all breeds. Rotate kibble that has various red meat sources. There should be no harm if chicken or turkey is the forth or fifth ingredient. With 20%/80% feeding a supplement should not be used. Be careful of overfeeding fat soluble vitamins.
> 
> ...


I totally agree with this. No, I don't think it's a good idea to feed growing animals, or really any but like mentioned you'd have some more wiggle room if older/raw fed for a while, the same protein, and it not even being a red protein, consistently. Would you have able to feed whole chickens/turkey? Feeding a dog a diet of 90% white meat isn't anymore like their natural diet honestly than feeding kibble. No where in the wild would you have a dog who ate like that; especially if you're not even dealing with the whole animal. I agree with waiting until you have more options. Those are growing pups; they definitely need more than white meat!


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## Liz (Sep 27, 2010)

Murbanski - I am glad you are wanting to feed raw. You would be starting on chicken and turkey anyway. There have been times chicken or turkey was our staple but I have always tried to get at least four proteins. If you had a Costco or Cash n Carry they carry pork for really good prices. I get beef from a friend who has access to a military commissary for a great price. Asian and Hispanic markets have a great variety for a very good price usually. You can talk to friends who fish and see if they will save scraps or unwanted fish for you. My neighbor freezes his excess or undesired parts and gives them to me when the bag is full. I would definitely try for four proteins. Two of them red meat. Hunters are a great source of organ and scraps. Even if you fed a base of chicken and turkey but also gave even canned mackerel or sardines and some pork of beef heart as an addition you would be doing well. You can also buy canned tripe at better dog food stores called Tripett - raw is better but that would be another protein source for you to add in every couple of weeks. You can also check here for co-ops and call around for food suppliers - some of them will sell to the public if you buy a few cases at a time. 

Hope that give you some ideas. I don't see a problem with chicken/turkey as a base but you will have to add other things to supplement and balance the nutrients. 

Liz


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## murbanski (Sep 25, 2012)

Well it is either kibble with ingredients coming from who knows where, and even if we do know where plants are there are still recalls, or limited protein sources and the lacking vitamins/minerals fulfilled with a supplement. I think feeding all white meat with a vitamin supplement and tripe is definitely better than any four or five star kibble just for that fact. At least I know where the chicken is coming from and I don't have to worry about it shutting down their vital organs. The website used to have all the information up, I don't know why they took it down. I will either find a different vitamin/mineral supplement or e-mail them to get the G.A. and post it here to see what you guys think. Suggestions are welcome. I just want it to be from a reputable company with as many ingredients sourced in the USA as possible. 




> The idea is to attempt to duplicate what animals would eat in the wild which would be primarily red meat, not chicken or turkey which is white meat.


This may be true of North American dogs but I know a lot of dogs that live on islands (like Iceland) were fed a diet of 100% fish and they did fine. Dogs are also opportunistic carnivores and can really survive on whatever. I feel like raw is so much better and as long as they are getting the vitamins/minerals/calories that they need they should be fine. 
I would love to not give them any supplements and fulfill their nutritional requirements with a varied diet. But I would rather have to go this route than feed them something that could potentially kill them. 





> Those are growing pups; they definitely need more than white meat!


Do you mean that they don't get all of the caloric requirements from white meat? It can't possibly be that bad. On PMR's website you don't even start adding red meat until you are a month in. 




> Feeding a dog a diet of 90% white meat isn't anymore like their natural diet honestly than feeding kibble.


I mentioned above that I would be feeding the correct bone to muscle meat to offal, only with chicken and turkey. I would probably be able to do some beef hearts for red muscle meat and probably beef offal. But that's about it. Also, I would love to do what is most natural for my dogs, but I am really trying to do what is best for them but that also must fit in to my budget. I feel of the two evils (kibble, and only white meat with supplements) the white meat method is better just for the fact that I know where its coming from and I know it won't kill my dogs, but I can't say as much about even the highest rated kibble. 





> I would definitely try for four proteins. Two of them red meat.


Is pork considered red meat? Because I could probably get a lot of pork. Probably more so than turkey. But I could definitely do chicken, turkey, and pork. During hunting season I *MIGHT* be able to find venison. Where I live deer meat is a coveted treat. So most hunters keep all of their meat and feed the scraps to their own dogs. Same with fish and small game. I check CL daily and have been for the past 6 months. I'm not doubting that people do advertise freezer burned meat, but I have yet to find it. I have also posted wanted ads at my local TSC, Big R, Wal-Mart, Lowe's, Menard's, Meijers, CL, Facebook groups, etc. for the past year. All of the grocery stores have my number if they need to sell any freezer burned meat or anything. :/



> You can also buy canned tripe at better dog food stores called Tripett - raw is better but that would be another protein source for you to add in every couple of weeks.


That is what I wanted to use. It says on the label that you can use it daily. Is that too much? I will probably be able to access a lot of raw tripe when fair comes around in July. 


I love PMR and one day that is really what I want to do because I know that is what's best for my dogs. But of the two 'evils':
1. Kibble- I don't _necessarily_ know where they source their products (companies aren't always as transparent as they lead us to believe). So I don't know where these ingredients are coming from, and what their country of origin's health inspection is like. Heck, I don't even know what OUR country's pet food inspection is like. This means I don't know the quality of those plants or the quality of ingredients. But I know the exact nutrients my dog is getting (through a guaranteed analysis). 
2. All white meat-not nutritionally complete. Will require vitamin/mineral supplement. Have to feed correct ratio of bone to muscle meat to offal ratio. But I can literally go to a friends farm, walk out into the part of the pasture where the chickens hang out, pick out five or six, go to the barn, kill the chickens, go to a prepared area outside where I watch the chicken be butchered and packaged, right at the farm.


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## Dude and Bucks Mamma (May 14, 2011)

"Do you mean that they don't get all of the caloric requirements from white meat? It can't possibly be that bad. On PMR's website you don't even start adding red meat until you are a month in. "

Puppies tend to be able to move on to newer proteins sooner than adults. Both of my puppies were eating pork and beef well before that month was up.


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## Fundog (Oct 25, 2012)

How do you feel about harvesting your dogs' food yourself? (aka, killing and butchering). That's what I do, and that's really the only way I can afford to give my dogs a quality food source. 

I scour ads on Craigslist almost daily for people selling off their livestock at amazing prices (I live in an agricultural area, with a heavy emphasis on 4H and Farming). Just a couple of weeks ago I bought an adult female sheep for only $100. (That's a steal, by the way). I did have to kill and butcher her myself-- in the middle of a cowpen-- but it was totally worth it.

Just tonight I see two ads: one for mutton sheep, at just $40 each (OMG!), and someone else selling some Barbados Rams for $150. I texted those people. I am going out of town on business in a couple of weeks. I asked them to remember me if they haven't sold in two weeks. The owner of the Rams texted back to say, "You bet. I actually have several, so let me know when you get back in town." 

There is someone else who has pregnant ewes that are already lambing (their lambs are included) for just $135! 

Fortunately, my in-laws farm, so I have somewhere to potentially raise some meat. And then harvest it myself.

I realize very few people have the kind of convenience an agricultural region offers, but if you have it, do attempt to shove your stomach and your heart into a little box in a corner of your brain and give it a shot. It is the most affordable way to feed yourself and your pets. Not to mention the healthiest.


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

> Is pork considered red meat? Because I could probably get a lot of pork. Probably more so than turkey. But I could definitely do chicken, turkey, and pork. During hunting season I *MIGHT* be able to find venison. Where I live deer meat is a coveted treat. So most hunters keep all of their meat and feed the scraps to their own dogs. Same with fish and small game. I check CL daily and have been for the past 6 months. I'm not doubting that people do advertise freezer burned meat, but I have yet to find it. I have also posted wanted ads at my local TSC, Big R, Wal-Mart, Lowe's, Menard's, Meijers, CL, Facebook groups, etc. for the past year. All of the grocery stores have my number if they need to sell any freezer burned meat or anything. :/


yes, pork is red meat. if you can offer four proteins, such as chicken, turkey, pork, and you are going to need supps, including tripe....then you could pull it off. 

you will need organs.

thing is with chicken and turkey, the nutritional profile is simply inadequate for dogs.

they are gentle nutritions; whereas, pork, beef, venison, etc. are nutritionally dense and dogs are made to eat red meat.

think squirrels and rabbits, although lean.....and other possibilities...

if you cannot provide red meat, then i too would recommend a balanced kibble until such time that you can. not sure i would go on a 'might'. i think, at least for me, i'd want to be sure i can provide a raw diet that is appropriate and healthy than maybe.


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## spliff (May 13, 2013)

Sheltielover25 said:


> I totally agree with this. No, I don't think it's a good idea to feed growing animals, or really any but like mentioned you'd have some more wiggle room if older/raw fed for a while, the same protein, and it not even being a red protein, consistently. Would you have able to feed whole chickens/turkey? Feeding a dog a diet of 90% white meat isn't anymore like their natural diet honestly than feeding kibble. No where in the wild would you have a dog who ate like that; especially if you're not even dealing with the whole animal. I agree with waiting until you have more options. Those are growing pups; they definitely need more than white meat!


May I ask what a dogs "natural" diet should look like? Seeing as dogs don't typically exist without human intervention, I don't see what a "natural" diet would consist for them? 
They don't have any "natural" predators nor any "natural" prey. They created a relationship with us *by eating our waste*. If there was no waste, there wouldn't be the dog. 
Confused.

If you wish to use the *dogs are wolves* argument- wolves don't consistently take down an elk, moose or deer; I wouldn't even say half of the time. They do when they can but generally live off of small game- birds (pheasant, quail or whatever can be caught), rodents (squirrel, rabbit, hare), and other small critters not excluding; fish, reptiles, amphibians etc. 

How can one claim to know the "natural" diet of an *unnatural* creature? Genuinely fascinated.


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## kathylcsw (Jul 31, 2011)

I guess I would say give it a try. If you look 90% of all kibble is made from chicken so I can't see how that would be better than getting fresh, local chicken plus supplements. It seems like you are feeding the same ingredients, except one is fresh and local. If you can get some beef hearts and pork that would give you red meat. I would also feed red meat organs as much as possible. Take my advice for what it is worth because I am surely not a nutritional expert!


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## Liz (Sep 27, 2010)

Murbanski - venison meat is highly prized but meat like lung is great for your dog and I don't k now of a person ever wanting it for themselves. If you do know of some hunters maybe ask for lung, organs they don't want, the head, tail, etc.


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## lauren43 (Feb 6, 2011)

spliff said:


> May I ask what a dogs "natural" diet should look like? Seeing as dogs don't typically exist without human intervention, I don't see what a "natural" diet would consist for them?
> They don't have any "natural" predators nor any "natural" prey. They created a relationship with us *by eating our waste*. If there was no waste, there wouldn't be the dog.
> Confused.
> 
> ...


Most people on this forum that feed raw believe dogs to be carnivores plain and simple - NOT WOLVES. To me their digestive tract speaks volumes as to what they should eat. Can they eat outside the meat department and still survive? Of course, they are not cats, they are not obligate carnivores. The point is that in my opinion my dog is a carnivore, so his diet should consist of meat. 

I don't mind those that feel dogs need veggies (as long as they're aware they will pretty much go undigested if not ground), its all a matter of opinion. I have no issues with people that choose to feed kibble, it's out there intended for dogs, actually there is a huge industry involving dog food. The bigger concern for me is not doing any research and buying the cheapest bag in the supermarket.

So I ask this thread not get muddled by the great "are dogs carnivores debate", Brindle/Skadoosh/Spliff I think we've had enough of those threads and by now you should have the answers you are looking for. We are all human (hopefully), everyone will have a different option on any topic, that includes things outside the dog world such as child raising, politics, and religion. That doesn't mean we always have to get our panties in a bunch every time someone doesn't see things our way. Take the information and learn from it.


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## spliff (May 13, 2013)

lauren43 said:


> Most people on this forum that feed raw believe to be dogs carnivores plain and simple - NOT WOLVES. To me their digestive tract speaks volumes as to what they should eat. Can they eat outside the meat department and still survive? Of course, they are not cats, they are not obligate carnivores. The point is that in my opinion my dog is a carnivore, so his diet should consist of meat.
> 
> I don't mind those that feel dogs need veggies (as long as they're aware they will pretty much go undigested if not ground), its all a matter of opinion. I have no issues with people that choose to feed kibble, it's out there intended for dogs, actually there is a huge industry involving dog food. The bigger concern for me is not doing any research and buying the cheapest bag in the supermarket.
> 
> So I ask this thread not get muddled by the great "are dogs carnivores debate", Brindle/Skadoosh/Spliff I think we've had enough of those threads and by now you should have the answers you are looking for. We are all human (hopefully), everyone will have a different option on any topic, that includes things outside the dog world such as child raising, politics, and religion. That doesn't mean we always have to get our panties in a bunch every time someone doesn't see things our way. Take the information and learn from it.


What I quoted was that a dog should eat mainly red meat (courtesy of sheltie lover). My question was why? How do we know that this is "natural" for them? I wasn't arguing the benefits of raw... that would be you.


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## lauren43 (Feb 6, 2011)

spliff said:


> What I quoted was that a dog should eat mainly red meat (courtesy of sheltie lover). My question was why? How do we know that this is "natural" for them? I wasn't arguing the benefits of raw... that would be you.


Actually there is not one single thing in my post about the benefits of raw. Thanks for reading.

And I believe the red meat is considered important, esp in a young dog, because many times that is the best way to keep weight on a young dog when they are doing most of their growing.

For murbanski, I don't see why not. You may have to supplement with kibble or freeze dried or just add some red meat when they hit 1 year (if you run into trouble keeping weight on). But I do know personally many raw feeders that feed chicken only and their dogs seem to be doing pretty well. Granted I do believe variety is the spice of life!


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## Liz (Sep 27, 2010)

Red meat is more nutritionally dense - and yes can include squirrel, pork, rabbit, etc. 

Are you planning to switch your dog to raw Spliff?


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## spliff (May 13, 2013)

Liz said:


> Red meat is more nutritionally dense - and yes can include squirrel, pork, rabbit, etc.
> 
> Are you planning to switch your dog to raw Spliff?


I was actually thinking about it. I have an amazing source that I could buy reasonably priced meats off of. I haven't decided yet... there are still things that concern me.


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## spliff (May 13, 2013)

lauren43 said:


> Actually there is not one single thing in my post about the benefits of raw. Thanks for reading.
> 
> And I believe the red meat is considered important, esp in a young dog, because many times that is the best way to keep weight on a young dog when they are doing most of their growing.
> 
> For murbanski, I don't see why not. You may have to supplement with kibble or freeze dried or just add some red meat when they hit 1 year (if you run into trouble keeping weight on). But I do know personally many raw feeders that feed chicken only and their dogs seem to be doing pretty well. Granted I do believe variety is the spice of life!


You were discussing how dogs are carnivores etc etc. 
My point wasn't disputing that fact, I was wondering how we suppose that dogs require a primarily red meat diet. Thank YOU for reading


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## wolfsnaps88 (Jan 2, 2012)

Ideally, a varied diet is best. But fresh, unprocessed foods are better than the alternative. If you can only do chicken, supplement with organs from red meat until circumstances are better. And be opportunistic. Look at Craigslist, roadkill (fresh obviously) and ask friends and family if they know anyone. Get the word out and you may be surprised what you can acquire. Wolves are pack animals and work together to bring down large prey. Their success rate sucks of course so they are opportunistic. But IDEALLY they want red meat.


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## Liz (Sep 27, 2010)

Spliff - without touching the wolf debate I just try to feed enough variety to cover nutritional needs and red meats are higher in many nutrients than white meat though each have their place. Personally if I had to I would feed white meat with as much red meat as I could afford. Though my dogs love tripe and fish also. A base of white meat is not a bad thing if we can add a bit of variety. Spliff to be very transparent I believe all living things should have a diet of whole foods not processed food. We try to eat the majority of whole unprocessed food, my dogs do and even my chickens get real seeds, grains, fruit, veg, meat and graze all over the lawn, we do not buy chicken feed for them we mix our own feed. 


Murbanski - the biggest issue with white meat diet and young dogs is it is more difficult to keep weight on them with some extra red meat. Once they mature it is not such an issue. Red meat makes all the difference with my youngsters both sheltie and collie though sometimes they only red meat I have been able to afford is sheep lung and pork. As adults I have two dogs who would live solely on chicken, turkey and rabbit.


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## murbanski (Sep 25, 2012)

I picked up a multi-vitamin today. What do you guys think?

VitaPet Puppy

Per 3 gram tablet:
Linoleic Acid (Omega 6) (30 mg) 1 %
Calcium 3.3 %
Phosphorus 2.56 %
Potassium 0.0005 %
Magnesium 0.00023 mg
Iron 1 mg
Copper 0.050 mg
Manganese 0.030 mg
Zinc 1.5 mg
Iodine 0.052 mg
Vitamin A 600 IU
Vitamin D3 150 IU
Vitamin E 15 IU
Thiamine (Vitamin B1) 0.243 mg
Riboflavin (Vitamin B2) 0.660 mg
Niacin 3.4 mg
Pantothenic Acid (Vitamin B6) 0.684 mg
Pyridoxine 0.250 mg
Folic Acid 0.055 mg
Vitamin B12 0.007 mg
Choline 50 mg
*Cobalt 0.014 mg
*Ascorbic Acid (Vitamin C) 10 mg
*Biotin 0.030 mg
*Menadione (Vitamin K) 0.300 mg
*Not recognized as an essential nutrient by the AAFCO Dog Food Nutrient Profiles.
(All values are minimum unless otherwise stated.)

Inactive Ingredients:
Dicalcium Phosphate, Maltodextrins, Natural Flavoring, Microcrystalline Cellulose, Kaolin, Non-Fat Dry Milk, Dried Whey, Choline Bitartrate, Lecithin, Brewer’s Dried Yeast, Vitamin E Supplement, Magnesium Stearate, Ferrous Sulfate, Vegetable Oil, Stearic Acid, Ascorbic Acid (Source of Vitamin C), Beta Carotene, Vitamin A Palmitate, Biotin, Zinc Sulfate, Niacin Supplement, Vitamin D3 Supplement, Silica Aerogel, Vitamin B12 Supplement, Riboflavin, Menadione Sodium Bisulfite Complex, Pantothenic Acid, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride, Thiamine Mononitrate, Manganese Sulfate, Potassium Iodide, Copper Carbonate, Folic Acid and Cobalt Carbonate.

Directions:
For puppies: 6 weeks - 1 yearWeight Daily Amount
Puppies under 10 lbs 1/2 tablet
Puppies over 10 lbs 1 to 2 tablets


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## Sheltielover25 (Jan 18, 2011)

spliff said:


> May I ask what a dogs "natural" diet should look like? Seeing as dogs don't typically exist without human intervention, I don't see what a "natural" diet would consist for them?
> They don't have any "natural" predators nor any "natural" prey. They created a relationship with us *by eating our waste*. If there was no waste, there wouldn't be the dog.
> Confused.
> 
> ...


Have you ever looked firstly at the ratio of Omega-3/Omega-6 in chicken? Unless you're getting pasture chickens it's incredibly off balanced. So that would be thing number one. 

Not to mention white meat also has lesser iron, zinc, niacin, riboflavin, thiamin, vitamins B6 and B12, amino acids -- namely ALA.

Also, I'm a big support of all living things needing as much good (saturated) fat you can get so I would always favor beef. And just because they've lived on a diet of waste and such doesn't mean it's good for them. Just like us humans their rate of obesity, diabetes and cancer is through the roof. 

Also, what you're referencing isn't relevant to most raw diets. Sure if you can feed whole chicken/turkey/birds/rodents etc you might be good, but consider the majority of people who feed raw feed bits and pieces, it's important to have the most nutritionally packed pieces.


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## spliff (May 13, 2013)

Sheltielover25 said:


> Have you ever looked firstly at the ratio of Omega-3/Omega-6 in chicken? Unless you're getting pasture chickens it's incredibly off balanced. So that would be thing number one.
> 
> Not to mention white meat also has lesser iron, zinc, niacin, riboflavin, thiamin, vitamins B6 and B12, amino acids -- namely ALA.
> 
> ...


This^^^ is why I feed kibble :bounce:


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## Sheltielover25 (Jan 18, 2011)

Yeah, well considering I routinely cycle through whole prey, I'm blessed and know my animals have a balanced diet. There's also blood work which is the best tool in our arsenals. You never know when the animal (or human) has a defect in converting a certain vitamin and using it. So no matter what you feed it's important to check out the blood work and make sure everything is working well. You never know if those vaccines and the mercury are leaching away at a certain nutrient or caused something to go wrong and block the receptors from being able to absorb it. (happened to me with lead) I've taken many nutrition classes and so many people become very sick/death due to a vitamin deficiency due to malabsorption. When we feed things that body doesn't recognize as food (kibble/meat tainted with chemicals along the process/water with chemicals/food that's leached chemicals from cans/bags) it causes damage over time... some quicker than other depending on a number of factors.

All animals/people should have routine blood work... really no excuse because by the time you see the physical effects of what's wrong the insides are bad.


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

murbanski, a multi vitamin is not necessary when you feed a well rounded diet. the one you picked has ingredients i would not feed a dog. let me get to my desk and i will post a link as to why variety is needed to provide nutrients to your dog.

we call it prey model or franken prey because we are using animals and their parts to provide nutrients.

so just as brazil nuts have selenium, and gouda cheese has vitamin k2 and an olive has omega 6 and is cured......making the combo a healthy combination....we take foods and feed them to our dogs to provide the vitamins and minerals they need.

proteins, fat, bone, organ are what dogs need.....the same protein over and over again, especially white meats of chickens simply do not provide all the nutrients they need.


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

http://www.kaossiberians.com/old kaos pages/health/Nutrients.pdf

check this out. the more proteins you feed, the more nutrients you provide....fortunately, for all of us, there is overlap, which is why i suggest four proteins minimal......a multivitamin simply does not provide what your dog needs.


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## murbanski (Sep 25, 2012)

Guys, I seriously appreciate all of the help. Seriously. I LOVE this board but jeez, will nobody read my freakin OP?! I understand that when you feed PMR (WHICH I CANNOT AFFORD TO DO RIGHT NOW. AGAIN, I CAN NOT FEED PMR RIGHT NOW. I HAVE NO MONEY.) you feed many different protein sources in order to fulfill all nutrient requirements. I CANNOT DO THIS RIGHT NOW. I DO NOT HAVE ANY MONEY.
I want to feed them stuff that I know EVERYTHING about. Where it came from, what it ate, how it was vaccinated/treated/etc. So I know it WON'T kill my dogs. UNLIKE KIBBLE. I have been having bad experiences with kibble. I don't care about anyone's opinion on which is better. I know that I will feel better when I know everything there is to know about the stuff I am feeding my dogs. I do NOT want to feed kibble. BUT I CAN NOT AFFORD TO FEED A GAZILLION DIFFERENT PROTEIN SOURCES.

I know that DOGS RECEIVE ALL OF THEIR NUTRIENTS IF THEY ARE GETTING MULTIPLE PROTEIN SOURCES. I. CAN. NOT. DO. THIS.

I know I am sounding crappy right now but it seems like no one is reading what I am saying. 

I ALSO posted that I would be feeding the suggested ratio of meat to bone to offal ratio. AGAIN. I WILL FEED THE CORRECT RATIO OF MUSCLE MEAT TO BONE TO OFFAL RATIO. However it will consist mainly of chicken and turkey parts, but I will be able to add in beef hearts for a second protein source of muscle meat. Occasionally pork parts. But again, MAINLY chicken parts.

AGAIN, I UNDERSTAND PREY MODEL RAW. I would LOVE to do this. But I CANNOT EXCLUSIVELY DO PMR, because I can't afford MULTIPLE PROTEIN SOURCES ON A REGULAR BASIS.


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## Felix (Oct 9, 2012)

murbanski said:


> Guys, I seriously appreciate all of the help. Seriously. I LOVE this board but jeez, will nobody read my freakin OP?! I understand that when you feed PMR (WHICH I CANNOT AFFORD TO DO RIGHT NOW. AGAIN, I CAN NOT FEED PMR RIGHT NOW. I HAVE NO MONEY.) you feed many different protein sources in order to fulfill all nutrient requirements. I CANNOT DO THIS RIGHT NOW. I DO NOT HAVE ANY MONEY.
> I want to feed them stuff that I know EVERYTHING about. Where it came from, what it ate, how it was vaccinated/treated/etc. So I know it WON'T kill my dogs. UNLIKE KIBBLE. I have been having bad experiences with kibble. I don't care about anyone's opinion on which is better. I know that I will feel better when I know everything there is to know about the stuff I am feeding my dogs. I do NOT want to feed kibble. BUT I CAN NOT AFFORD TO FEED A GAZILLION DIFFERENT PROTEIN SOURCES.
> 
> I know that DOGS RECEIVE ALL OF THEIR NUTRIENTS IF THEY ARE GETTING MULTIPLE PROTEIN SOURCES. I. CAN. NOT. DO. THIS.
> ...


You can get multiple meat sources from various places. I would hit up craigslist, I got a TON of FREE! (wait let me say this again) *FREE, FREE MEAT!* from there. Most of it was from hunters that were cleaning out their freezer. All I had to do was pick it up. Also, there are co ops that have very cheap meat, butchers and slaughter houses that would sell the cuttings and offal at a steal of a rate, if not give it to you (here that word goes again) FOR FREE! Look around, I know what it's like to feed a dog raw on a budget, but I did it on $20 a month because of all of the free stuff I would get. In Indiana there are a TON of farms that would be glad for you to take things/meat/offal off of their hands. You'll have meat coming out of YOUR ears before you know it (which would be uncomfortable, but no doubt your dogs would love it)

You CAN do it! There's definitely more than one way to skin a … cat?


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

murbanski said:


> Guys, I seriously appreciate all of the help. Seriously. I LOVE this board but jeez, will nobody read my freakin OP?! I understand that when you feed PMR (WHICH I CANNOT AFFORD TO DO RIGHT NOW. AGAIN, I CAN NOT FEED PMR RIGHT NOW. I HAVE NO MONEY.) you feed many different protein sources in order to fulfill all nutrient requirements. I CANNOT DO THIS RIGHT NOW. I DO NOT HAVE ANY MONEY.
> I want to feed them stuff that I know EVERYTHING about. Where it came from, what it ate, how it was vaccinated/treated/etc. So I know it WON'T kill my dogs. UNLIKE KIBBLE. I have been having bad experiences with kibble. I don't care about anyone's opinion on which is better. I know that I will feel better when I know everything there is to know about the stuff I am feeding my dogs. I do NOT want to feed kibble. BUT I CAN NOT AFFORD TO FEED A GAZILLION DIFFERENT PROTEIN SOURCES.
> 
> I know that DOGS RECEIVE ALL OF THEIR NUTRIENTS IF THEY ARE GETTING MULTIPLE PROTEIN SOURCES. I. CAN. NOT. DO. THIS.
> ...


if you go back to the beginning posts, you'll see where i said that if you CANNOT exclusively do PMR, you'd be better off choosing a good kibble and occasionally giving them a good recreational bone. i might not have said the part about the rec bone for teeth cleaning, but that is personally what i would do, if i could not afford to feed pmr the way it is supposed to be fed.


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## meggels (May 30, 2010)

magicre said:


> if you go back to the beginning posts, you'll see where i said that if you CANNOT exclusively do PMR, you'd be better off choosing a good kibble and occasionally giving them a good recreational bone. i might not have said the part about the rec bone for teeth cleaning, but that is personally what i would do, if i could not afford to feed pmr the way it is supposed to be fed.


Ditto this


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## murbanski (Sep 25, 2012)

No. I do NOT want to feed kibble. In my town alone 10 dogs have just died due to kibble being tainted. I am not going to feed them kibble. And again, if anyone has read what I have said. I scour Craigslist on a daily basis. I post wanted ads as well and on 10+ livestock groups on Facbook as well as my own personal Facebook. All of my friends and family know not to throw out any meat (however they all vegetarians), I have ads posted at 6 different local grocery stores plus Big R, Tractor Supply, Menards, Lowes, the 4H extension knows me by name because I call so frequently. But that is not my question. I know my budget. 

My question is, am I going to kill my dogs feeding them chicken and turkey parts and give them a vitamin?


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

murbanski said:


> No. I do NOT want to feed kibble. In my town alone 10 dogs have just died due to kibble being tainted. I am not going to feed them kibble. And again, if anyone has read what I have said. I scour Craigslist on a daily basis. I post wanted ads as well and on 10+ livestock groups on Facbook as well as my own personal Facebook. All of my friends and family know not to throw out any meat (however they all vegetarians), I have ads posted at 6 different local grocery stores plus Big R, Tractor Supply, Menards, Lowes, the 4H extension knows me by name because I call so frequently. But that is not my question. I know my budget.
> 
> My question is, am I going to kill my dogs feeding them chicken and turkey parts and give them a vitamin?


here is your answer. i'll be as direct as possible.

you will do your dogs no favours by feeding them a multi vitamin and chicken/turkey as their sources of protein.

will you kill them? can't answer that. but you will deny them nutrients which are on the site i posted above.

i suggested kibble simply because you said that money was tight. i feel if raw cannot be done in a way that is best for the dogs, then please don't do it.

kibble may be processed, but it will have a more balanced profile than chicken, turkey and a vitamin.

my opinion.


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## FBarnes (Feb 17, 2013)

I wonder how many times I have seen people say they would feed exclusively chicken rather than ever go back to kibble? I know I am one of those people. I would never, ever go back to kibble no matter if I have to run down rabbits and kill them with my teeth. 

Plus, I am faced with a looming financial situation where I won't be able to afford the things I can afford right now. So I know where you are coming from. If I had access to free range turkeys and chicken? I would be in heaven. Now, if you were talking about WalMart chicken I would say something different. That's unbalanced food filled with soy and corn and other things that aren't a natural diet, plus it comes from horribly abused animals.

Can you get beef heart now and then? I pay $1.69 a pound and use it almost exclusively as my beef source. And you'll be able to buy organs? I think your turkey and chicken is a high value food. No, it's not optimal to feed it exclusively I don't think. Plus, I did read your first post and you did seem to be asking people's opinions as to whether it would work. Personally, I would feed what you propose rather than kibble. I believe as you do - anything is better than what might be lurking in a bag of dog food. I would give my dogs table scraps, fruits, whatever, to supplement their diet rather than buy a bag of kibble ever again.


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## wolfsnaps88 (Jan 2, 2012)

If i could only afford chicken or could only get chicken (and it might happen sometime) I would still feed that over kibble. If I had to feed kibble, I would choose a high quality one. High quality means $$$$ so I would be spending a lot on kibble anyways so I could probably get red meat once in a while for the money spent. 

Most kibbles are chicken based with added vitamins. However, not being an expert on nutritional profiles compared to what vitamins have to offer, I can not address whether or not that is a good idea. Right now I feed mostly venison with some bison/beef/rabbit thrown in here and there. My diet is not as varied as what I see others feed their dogs. However, even with a mostly venison based diet, I am not too concerned about balance. My dogs' blood work came out fine and they have proper energy levels despite not having emu, lamb, alligator, giraffe, unicorn, and elephant added to their diet. 

If it was me, I would feed what I could get (chicken and turkey) and closely monitor how my dogs did with it. If their health was in decline, I would go back to kibble and also back to the bulletin board to see where else I could find sources of meat.


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## murbanski (Sep 25, 2012)

THANK YOU! The last few posts have been SO helpful. This is what I was looking for. I understand how PMR works and I want to do that so bad with my babies. But again, money is tight. I was feeding a really expensive kibble and it was recalled. Even Orijen has had recalls. So expensive 'high quality' kibbles even have recalls. That is my mentality. It doesn't matter how much you spend, you are always putting your dogs at risk when feeding them kibble. Again, that is just MY mentality. 

Today, I was able to get 
Chicken: wings, feet, hearts, gizzards, liver
Turkey: wings
Beef: Liver
Pork: Necks

Plus super low sodium canned (yes, I know) salmon, tuna, mackerel. Plus I have canned Tripe on its way. 

Can I give my dogs pork chitlins?


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## wolfsnaps88 (Jan 2, 2012)

Try to get more muscle meat if you can. Remember wings and necks are very bony which is great as long as you are feeding them for the bone content and not the meat content. I have found whole chickens on sale with no sodium added. When I see stuff like this, I buy all of it. LOL. Also, remember that canned is cooked. 

Chitlins are intestines. If you are getting them at a store, they are probably bleached. I feed whole animals...I feed everything off an animal except intestines. So my vote is no. If its bleached, any good nutritional value in intestines is stripped away. If it's not bleached, this is where most parasites come from and I avoid that.


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