# Want to change to a single food, and struggling to find one....



## beardieluvr (May 6, 2012)

Here's the story: we've recently added a new adult dog to the family. She's been on Costco gf salmon, but I refuse to buy anything that's come through the Diamond plant (annoying, as many of those products are so GOOD in all other ways). Our boy, on the other hand, has been on Wellness Duck & Oatmeal for some time and does well, but with two of them, this will start to break the bank. Also, I LOVE what her coat is like on the fish-based food, and would love to keep some fish in their diet. 

I thought I was going to go with Nutrisource Seafood Select or (if funds will stretch the extra) Pure Vita Duck & Sweet Potato (which has fish in it) - and maybe mix in the Wellness in canned form just for taste, since he likes it - BUT I now see both products have a lot of pea in them, and I'm learning that peas can be controversial if fed to breeding stock; it is likely she will be bred, so I don't want to find myself affecting her future by feeding something that's going to cause problems. The more I look around, the more I see pea/pea starch/pea protein seem to be ingredients in most products. Huh? The more I research, the more confused I get................

She has a pretty cast iron gut and will eat anything; he has no specifically-identified allergies or sensitivities but is a picky eater with a stomach that tends towards runny at times. Raw is not an option for us; in principle, no problems, but the practicalities of it simply can't work for us for a variety of reasons. 

I guess that means I'm hoping to find a kibble I can feed both of them that is: 

- not Diamond or Diamond-packed
- relatively affordable 
- would like fish at least somewhere in the ingredient list, although duck is definitely our boy's preference
- smaller amounts of (or no) pea products 
- enough fiber to keep one with a slightly runny tummy (the boy) consistent

HELP!!!!


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## NutroGeoff (May 15, 2013)

I was looking at some of ft he grain free foods in Petco, all the ones I saw did have peas in them. I'm not familiar with the controversy over peas. What is it that you have read?


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## beardieluvr (May 6, 2012)

A couple of breeders mentioned it to me, so I started researching a little. I can't found out enough to know how substantiated current research is, hence why I posted here, hoping maybe somebody knows more and can elaborate. I believe there's more info available on its impact on humans, but I do trust the people who mentioned it, so I figure I should do due diligence and find out as much as I can before feeding a potential brood-bitch a food that contains something which *could* impact her fertility. The foods I've been considering have pea protein/starch/whole peas listed as ingredients, which sounds like it could add up to more than is immediately obvious. 

Here are a few articles I've found. Again, I do trust the people who mentioned it to me in passing, but I was hoping somebody here might have some more info or links to more in-depth research. I'm curious to read more, and ideally more extensive, information. 

5 Unfriendly Foods for Fertility
A journey with SARDS - from despair to a cure!: Phytoestrogens in dog food
Green Fertility: Peas May Impede Fertility


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## leaveittoweaver (Nov 15, 2013)

The Pure Vita would be a good choice or even just the regular Nutrisource Grain Free...but I feel that might be a little too complex for the sensitive tummied dog. I use the Pure Vita GF Bison and I get great stools and the dog loves it. It's a little pricey though.


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## flashyfawn (Mar 8, 2012)

Have you looked at Petcurean? I think their Go line has some things that could work. I'm pretty sure they don't all contain peas, but not sure if there are any duck options. Also don't remember how the price compares to Wellness. I fed a couple of the Now and Go flavors for a while and was very happy with them. I think a lot of companies add in peas because people want grain free. I don't worry about peas but I do stay away from potato, which is equally annoying to find.


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## FarminaND (May 23, 2013)

We do not use peas, lentils, chickpeas, pea protein or canola oil in any of our formulas. Our formulas use whole ingredients.

There are increasing reports that pea ingredients are causing issues with pets.

OP, we have a mono-protein Wild Cod formula that is 47% cod with 30% protein and 18% fat. It is intended for sensitive dogs including those with gastric sensitivities.

This food uses only 20% carbohydrate from organic farro and organic oats. No chicken, chicken fat or eggs. 92% of the protein content is from the two cod ingredients, both whole fish ingredients excluding the viscera and sharp fins.

You should compare this food to other mono-protein diets and you will be impressed. This food can be fed to all pets, even puppies and lactating mothers.

Single Animal Protein Wild Cod & Ancestral Grain Recipe | Farmina Pet Foods - Happy pet. Happy You.


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## beardieluvr (May 6, 2012)

"The Pure Vita would be a good choice or even just the regular Nutrisource Grain Free...but I feel that might be a little too complex for the sensitive tummied dog. "

Can you explain what you mean by "too complex"? Thanks!

Farmina, that sounds like a great product but I can't find a US vendor so I can price it! Given your ingredients list, I have to guess it would be out of my price range, unfortunately, plus it looks like your only US location is in Indiana, which is many miles from me.... 

Flashyfawn, will check out Petcurean - not one I'd hear of before, so will have a look - thanks!

I'm honestly not that worried about inclusion of "peas", particularly if it's down the ingredient list a bit - what flagged me (once I started looking) was the splitting of pea protein/pea starch/whole peas as separate ingredients, which I'm guessing means there's a *lot* more there than immediately meets the eye; that does make me wonder what's going on..... which is why I'm doing my research


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## Georgiapeach (Jan 24, 2011)

Check out Hi-Tek Naturals Grain Free (comes in a fish formula, too). It's made in GA and reasonably priced. It does have some peas in it, but they're listed as the 7th ingredient, so pretty far down the ingredient list. The link below says it's the lamb, but it actually takes you to the fish formula - go figure!
Hi-Tek Rations: Hi-Tek Naturals Grain Free Lamb Meal & Sweet Potato Formula Dog Food


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## FarminaND (May 23, 2013)

beardieluvr said:


> "The Pure Vita would be a good choice or even just the regular Nutrisource Grain Free...but I feel that might be a little too complex for the sensitive tummied dog. "
> 
> Can you explain what you mean by "too complex"? Thanks!
> 
> ...


It will be available on Chewy.com in about two weeks. It will also be available in 30 states and close to 3,000 stores. We have 6 distributors that have food being delivered.

The food I suggested will retail for about $50 for 26.4lbs, which is about the same price as others mentioned.


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## StellaLucyDesi (Oct 29, 2008)

I'm using Annamaet Option for my sensitive one, actually they all get what she gets lol. Annamaet also has a grain free fish formula, but Option is working fine for mine. Grains don't seem to bother them as much as peas, etc. I also use Wellness 95% canned food to add some more meat and they like it a lot. I will use the lamb, salmon and beef flavors with them. My sensitive one can't have poultry. I'm glad I found this food! I may try Victor's soon, as we are supposed to be getting it locally at one of the stores I frequent.


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## MollyWoppy (Mar 19, 2010)

And don't forget that you don't normally have to feed as much with a very high quality food.


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## beardieluvr (May 6, 2012)

Thanks so much, Farmina! I'll look at that once it's online - that is pretty much the price point I'm considering, so good catch! 

StellaLucy, Annamaet is $80 a bag where I live - definitely out of my price range, alas. My boy's breeder uses it, actually (although I know she gets it at a major discount because she works somewhere that it is sold!)

Hi-Tek looks interesting, but not available in a 100 mi radius. I'll sniff around to see if it's online, but looks like it may be hard to find. 

Molly, my two get about 2cups a day of their current rations, so we definitely don't overfeed! They're thriving - it's annoying to feel compelled to make a change when they're doing nicely on the current products. If Costco wasn't Diamond-made, I'd just switch to it... 

Thanks for the suggestions, folks - really appreciate it! 

Does anybody ahve any more information about the inclusion of peas, splitting of pea components, and the impact on dogs (fertility or otherwise)? I'm just curious, and would love to read more, simply to become better informed


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## FarminaND (May 23, 2013)

beardieluvr said:


> Thanks so much, Farmina! I'll look at that once it's online - that is pretty much the price point I'm considering, so good catch!
> 
> StellaLucy, Annamaet is $80 a bag where I live - definitely out of my price range, alas. My boy's breeder uses it, actually (although I know she gets it at a major discount because she works somewhere that it is sold!)
> 
> ...


Thanks, we are one of the very few companies to have filed a complete disclosure of the country of origin of all our ingredients and we are also 1 of only 22 foods on TruthAboutPetFoods Most Trusted list.

http://truthaboutpetfood.com/FarminaPledge.pdf









If you come by the Facebook Page we also disclose the names of individual suppliers.

https://www.facebook.com/FarminaUSA


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## InkedMarie (Sep 9, 2011)

Regarding peas, my holistic vet is wondering about them. She didn't mention specifics while we were discussing what to put one of my dogs on next but said she's wondering about all the foods that have peas/pea protein etc. she also mentioned chick peas.


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## Shamrockmommy (Sep 10, 2009)

If you need a canned product, Costco's Kirkland Cuts in Gravy are really good, no peas and grain free. Not fish based, but chicken and beef. It helps my super (annoyingly!!) sensitive tummy poodle be able to have normal stools. I mix some in with the dry food for my others and it firms their stool up as well.


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## speedog (Feb 17, 2014)

Anything from Champion Pet Foods' Orijen line should met the OP's needs - there are peas in their formulas but the peas are far enough down in the ingredient list that they are by no means a major portion of these dog food formulas.

Also, Orijen's products should be readily available in many locations in the United States.


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## FarminaND (May 23, 2013)

InkedMarie said:


> Regarding peas, my holistic vet is wondering about them. She didn't mention specifics while we were discussing what to put one of my dogs on next but said she's wondering about all the foods that have peas/pea protein etc. she also mentioned chick peas.


Consumers should be aware that different types of lentils are still lentils whether red, brown or green and that peas and chickpeas are chemically very similar. 

It is best to keep a sharp eye for the splitting of legumes and legume derivatives on the label. This is done to deceive the consumer.

Also, legumes like lentils, chickpeas and peas are closely related to soy and act very much like soy when metabolized. They are all legumes.


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## beardieluvr (May 6, 2012)

FarminaND said:


> Consumers should be aware that different types of lentils are still lentils whether red, brown or green and that peas and chickpeas are chemically very similar.
> 
> It is best to keep a sharp eye for the splitting of legumes and legume derivatives on the label.


Precisely what I've been noticing as I research further. I don't think inclusion of "peas" as a single ingredient - especially down the list - as that big a deal, but seeing pea/pea protein/pea flour/pea starch all listed separately does make me wonder. The nutrisource product does this, which I'm not 100% comfortable with. Pure Vita is better - the pea sources are further down the list - but still split up so there's likely a higher percentage of pulses than is immediately obvious. Frustrating, as this is a good company and generally good products. 



> Also, legumes like lentils, chickpeas and peas are closely related to soy and act very much like soy when metabolized. They are all legumes.


This is what my breeder friends were discussing, which prompted me to start this thread. Are there any studies out there yet, or is it still simply consumers reporting back? 

Back to my dliemma: these dogs do great on what they're on... I'm wondering if I'm making complications by trying to reinvent the wheel, and should simply try to sustain the status-quo. The Wellness duck/oatmeal isn't an issue (although more $ than I really want to spend for two), only the Diamond-made Costco product. Am I being over-principled about this? EVERY formula which resembles the Nature's Domain (Costco) salmon & sweet potato turns out to also have been made by Diamond. Hve things there improved since the last recalls? Does less product come from China? Has testing improved? Do I just need to stop worrying and watch for recalls? 

Alternatively, am considering feeding them both the Wellness, and mixing in a small quantity of a salmon-based food (eg a small bag of Acana or Orijen, although I note that even Acana is including peas and chickpeas these days). 

So frustrated by all of this. :-/

PS SHamrock, we use Wellness duck and oatmeal canned food as a toppper -t hey both LOVE it. I get about 3 days out of a can, so it's an affordable way to dres things up. They both get a little cottage cheese or yogurt sometimes too. Very happy dogs 

Farmina, thanks for your continued posts. I see you're an Italian company - is the product going to be shipped, or made in the USA? If the former, how on earth are you going to keep the price down to what you mentioned above?!


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## FarminaND (May 23, 2013)

We will import all products from Europe. It costs less to ship from southern Italy by sea than you think. Italy is blessed with a very pure food supply and Italy is one of the few countries that has resisted the use of GMO products. In fact, in most of Italy GMO products are illegal to use. Several regions have 2 year prison sentences for GMO use.

Italy

So, we would be diluting our brand and the quality of the food by using US ingredients.

If you come to the Facebook Page, you can order samples. They are here now.


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## Grey (Jul 6, 2012)

I'd normally suggest Earthborn Holistics' Coastal Catch, but it does have quite a bit of pea protein. I just received a response from Nutrisource re: their Seafood Select the other day, stating that the ash content in the Seafood Select is 10%. That's too high for me. It's something to keep in mind.

I am personally switching to Nutrisca Salmon and Chickpea very soon. It's 4% ash and does have peas, but I need to try it because it's potato-free and grain-free. However, it is $62 on Chewy.com and $58 on PetFoodDirect. Truthfully, that's a bit out of my price-range, but I need to try the process of elimination and if potatoes are the culprit, it would be great to know while still keeping her on a fish-based food.

I was originally wanting to put both my dogs on the same food to cut down on costs. However, make sure it is cost effective. I buy a 48lb bag of Dr. Tim's Pursuit for Riggs and a specialized diet for Quinn. When I was feeding Earthborn, I calculated this out to my saving $20 by buying separate foods. I'll need to re-do the math for Nutrisca if it ends up working out, though, and suspect it may be relatively the same cost-wise to put them on the same. Just make sure you consider that.


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## beardieluvr (May 6, 2012)

Thanks, Grey. I contacted Nutrisource about pea inclusion and had a fairly non-informative answer from them; wasn't impressed by the "oh, don't believe everything you hear" response. I do hear great things about the company, but given that this girl is likely to be bred and I'm a co- rather than sole owner and both Nutrisource AND their PureVita lines have a *lot* of pea product in them, I feel I have to find something else. So, starting from scratch: 

I was running out of the Wellness Duck & Oatmeal, so I had to order a fresh bag; we still have a week or more of the Costco product she came with. All this gives me a little more time to figure it out. 

I tried them giving them both a little Merrick Duck GF and even on small portions mixed in with their existing foods, they both had the worst and smelliest gas, which neither of them have ever had before. That one is now off the list. 

I had to return the bag of Nutrisource Seafood Select (I bought it locally), and while there had another look at what they had. Somebody had mentioned Petcurean to me, and they had the full line... including the GO! Seafood "Sensitivity + Shine" formula. 



> Salmon meal, oatmeal, potatoes, whole oats, de-boned salmon, canola oil (preserved with mixed tocopherols), apples, natural flavour, flaxseed, quinoa, kamut flakes, calcium carbonate, potassium chloride, sodium chloride, dried kelp, vitamins (vitamin A supplement, vitamin D3 supplement, vitamin E supplement, inositol, niacin, L-ascorbyl-2-polyphosphate (a source of vitamin C), d-calcium pantothenate, thiamine mononitrate, beta-carotene, riboflavin, pyridoxine hydrochloride, folic acid, biotin, vitamin B12 supplement), minerals (zinc methionine complex, zinc proteinate, iron proteinate, copper proteinate, zinc oxide, manganese proteinate, copper sulphate, ferrous sulphate, calcium iodate, manganous oxide, selenium yeast), dried chicory root, L-lysine, dried Lactobacillus acidophilus fermentation product, dried Enterococcus faecium fermentation product, dried Aspergillus niger fermentation product, dried Aspergillus oryzae fermentation product, yucca schidigera extract, dried rosemary.


NO PEAS OR LENTILS!! And since our boy does well with an Oatmeal product, I am hope hope hoping this may work. It is a little more than I had hoped ($61/25lbs vs the $50/30lbs of the Nutrisource or ~sob~ the $35/32lbs of the Costco food), but keeps the salmon protein (her coat really is noticeably better than any we've ever had, which I attribute at least in part to the fish protein source). Bought a small bag to try out and we'll see how we go.

PS Semi-related question: how much fiber is optimum? The Wellness is about 6%; the GO! is about 3.5%. I've wondered if the higher fibre is why my boy's stool has been best on the Wellness Duck & Oatmeal.


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