# Terrible Twos



## SerenityFL (Sep 28, 2010)

In the last three or so days, my girl hoodlum has been demonstrating a nasty attitude towards the boy hoodlum and the cats. Seems every five seconds, she's growling and showing her teeth to any one of them. I'm not sure what's going on except that they are coming up to about a year and a half in age and I suspect that some things in their behavior will change.

But she's growling for stupid things that never bothered her before. Example, she growls at the cats if they stand in the door way to the bedroom. She growls at the boy or the cats if they walk by her. She growls when she's lying on her bed and they come "too close" according to her, trying to get up on my bed, (the cats), or the boy is lying too close to her. She's growling if they walk by her crate while she's eating. (They get fed in the crate to keep the mess down and to avoid this behavior...sigh. The crate is closed while they eat and no time has any cat or the other dog EVER been able to interrupt their meal or take their food from them, ever.) She growls if I'm petting both hoodlums and she thinks the boy needs to go away.

What is her problem?

Now, outside, they get to run around together and the girl likes to be chased. She doesn't bark very often at all, hardly ever, but sometimes she gets so excited to be chased that she'll bark, playfully, at the boy to chase her. He does and he eventually catches her. Sometimes he plays way too rough with her and she gets mad. I have, as hard as it has been for me, let them "have it out" as I've been told to do, from people on here, and the fight, (yes, it's a fight), will end, the boy's tail high, her tail low, and sometimes her crouching down. Ok, I've let them determine who is higher up. It doesn't stop the fighting, she continues to do it and I'm afraid as they get older....but, I do what I've been told to do, here, and frankly just hoping for the best. 

So, because they have chosen that he is higher up, I try to honor that by feeding him first, allowing him to go outside first, (of the dogs, that is), doing everything with him first. 

They've established their ranking, is what I'm saying.

But...she's getting real witchy about things lately and I'm wondering what on earth do I do now? 

Again, they are brother and sister, I know things have to be done differently and that sometimes brother and sister dogs don't get along. Just about every vet and trainer I've talked to says I should rehome one but I, again, would like to try to work things out before I EVER give up on one of them. I think, in the year I've had them, I've done a good job with that. However, they are getting older, getting to their "adult" stage or whatever, (let's please not argue semantics here, I just hope you know what I'm trying to say), and I've been told, several times, that things can change as that happens, especially as they approach around the age of two years old.

The girl dog responds well to clicker and treats, she's a soft dog so I cannot really train her other ways, so I'm open to suggestions that include something like that.

Her health is fine, by the way, as I know some will ask that first. Nothing wrong with her, health wise. 

So...why is she acting like and what do I do about it?


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## Liz (Sep 27, 2010)

Serenity, she is becoming an adult. In my house my male appears to be the leader/dominant member of their little pack but what the girls say goes. He really is a figurehead - poor boy. They let him have his bed and his ducky everything else is theirs. Even my sheltie overruns my boy. I would do training together such as walks, sit stays, down stays, and if they are crated crate them near each other. I would not push mealtimes and would feed separately or in crates so they don't fight. I think every time they fight it reinforces that they can get away with it. I would remove triggers such as food, special toys, etc. At this age mine also wear a leather tab about four inches long so i have a handle to control them shoud a situation occur. Is she spayed/ he neutered? Some girls get more and more PMS'y with every heat cycle. My seven year old makes you think about comitting hari kari during her heat cycle. We have four girls and one male and everyone is intact. Only one girl gives me issues and she is definately the dominant female so we molnitor her and don't put her in situations where she feels the need to discipline or control the other adults. She is great with pups by the way.


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## angelbears (Jun 9, 2011)

I totally agree with Liz, Sounds like she is ready to take control.


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## SerenityFL (Sep 28, 2010)

Liz said:


> Serenity, she is becoming an adult. In my house my male appears to be the leader/dominant member of their little pack but what the girls say goes. He really is a figurehead - poor boy. They let him have his bed and his ducky everything else is theirs. Even my sheltie overruns my boy. I would do training together such as walks, sit stays, down stays, and if they are crated crate them near each other. I would not push mealtimes and would feed separately or in crates so they don't fight. I think every time they fight it reinforces that they can get away with it. I would remove triggers such as food, special toys, etc. At this age mine also wear a leather tab about four inches long so i have a handle to control them shoud a situation occur. Is she spayed/ he neutered? Some girls get more and more PMS'y with every heat cycle. My seven year old makes you think about comitting hari kari during her heat cycle. We have four girls and one male and everyone is intact. Only one girl gives me issues and she is definately the dominant female so we molnitor her and don't put her in situations where she feels the need to discipline or control the other adults. She is great with pups by the way.


Ok, see, I was of the same school of thought as you that I should not let them fight but I was told, HERE, by members HERE to let them do it. That if I interfered with that, they would never work things out between them. So I did what I was told even though I felt it was wrong. Sigh. I'm so fricken confused now.

They are both fixed, they eat in their crates separately, (no way could I EVER put them in the same crate), they get one on one time with me as well as together time. Their crates are now near each other but they are only both in their crates when it's feeding time.

Training I work on them separately AND together. They are pretty darn well trained, actually. Not everything is perfect, we have more things to learn but they really are a LONG ways from where they were when I first got them. I use hand signals as well as voice and they are very good with sit, stay, the long down stay, recall, "come", "go", "follow", and are even learning parlor tricks like "left" and "right", (with shaking with paws and with directions...I started this because I would throw a ball, it would land in tall grass and to help them find it, I would just say, "left" or "right" and even "back" and they are starting to understand what those words mean...haha), corrections are either, "Ah!" or "No!" And they follow those instructions.

I guess I don't understand her need to control every little thing like where the cats are standing or how close anyone, (cats and other hoodlum), is allowed to walk near her...but even as I write this, she is growling at the boy because he is "too close" to her little bed, according to her. 

So what do I do? Do I stop the growling? Do I tell her to nok it off? Do I "let them have it out" like I have been told on here?! I feel like I'm supposed to stop this but then when I have said that in the past I was told I was wrong.

And if she's ready to take control...does that mean that at some point, one of those fights outside that happens when the boy pins her down and gnaws on her after catching her, (and really, if she hated it that much, why would she keep asking him to chase her?), is going to get worse and there may be some injuries?

Some here told me to let them "work it out" and that I am supposed to allow growling and fighting. Trainers tell me I'm NOT to allow that, at the first sign of aggression I'm supposed to step in and stop it.

I just don't know the right answer and want to do the right thing because as they get older, it won't be as easy to break it up like when they were younger. I really don't want one of them getting hurt because I don't know what to do.


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## Liz (Sep 27, 2010)

Well I can only tell you what we do. I may be old school but I do not accept aggressive behavior. If they can solve their problem with a lifted lip or soft growl I probably won't interven but when body language gets serious I put a stop to it with abfirm "leave it" or "he's mine" (he/she/it is mine means keep your mouth off)I have alrge and small dogs so the littles woudl be severely injured if I let them go at it. I know they are dogs but they must live in our human society and aggression is frowned upon and misundertsood by us people. 

I try my hardest to make it so they will succeed. If I know a situation will cause an outburst I either avoid it or put both "problem" pups on leash so I can control their reactions. I know many allow some aggressive displays but Once body posture gets stiff I step in. We do alot of long downs in the living room which means all dogs must hold a down stay while we watch a movie all together. No fighting or wrestling. Often the kids will sit on the floor with the dogs to cuddle and pet them so I cannot have dog fights breaking out with my kids in the middle.

My dogs are individuals with individual personalities - is they truly hated each other I might consider rehoming but most of what I see is pushiness/dominance stuff and that really can be controlled. You really need to decide what you can tolerate and try to work toward that goal. What others say really doesn't matter as no one else is living with your pups. I hear that anti pack stuff but it works for me and my crew and we have adjusted alot since the old days but I am still the boss when push comes to shove. I pay for the house and the food so I deserve a little respect. In my home I am "she who must be obeyed" ask my kids as this goes for them too.LOL 

If your girl is telling your boy to back off you might just tell her enough and call hom to you. I would and she would 1- get her space but 2 - she would see he was still getting affection from me. I guess I want them to know that like a pack they are all special and have their place according to their personality. My girl loves to work and is high drive I love that. My boy is mellow and easy going he is very special to me. They both have a place in my heart and they are both important - it just takes some owrk sometimes to get them to respect that. As far as the bed - if someone is on my boys bed he wil growl softly and stand there - usually the culprit leavesif they don't I just call him to me and love him a bit. He is good with that and there was no serious confrontation and he feels special because mommy cuddle him extra.

I hope this helps a bit - feel free to PM and maybe we can brainstorm some ideas., there are tons of ways to train and sometimes you just have to try a bunch before you hit on the right one.


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## SerenityFL (Sep 28, 2010)

Liz said:


> Well I can only tell you what we do. I may be old school but I do not accept aggressive behavior. If they can solve their problem with a lifted lip or soft growl I probably won't interven but when body language gets serious I put a stop to it with abfirm "leave it" or "he's mine" (he/she/it is mine means keep your mouth off)I have alrge and small dogs so the littles woudl be severely injured if I let them go at it. I know they are dogs but they must live in our human society and aggression is frowned upon and misundertsood by us people.
> 
> I try my hardest to make it so they will succeed. If I know a situation will cause an outburst I either avoid it or put both "problem" pups on leash so I can control their reactions. I know many allow some aggressive displays but Once body posture gets stiff I step in. We do alot of long downs in the living room which means all dogs must hold a down stay while we watch a movie all together. No fighting or wrestling. Often the kids will sit on the floor with the dogs to cuddle and pet them so I cannot have dog fights breaking out with my kids in the middle.
> 
> ...


I'm of the same school of thought and I'm going to toss what I've been told to do here and do what I FEEL is the right thing to do. I agree, aggression should not be accepted and I also believe in pack structure whether some wish to deny it, not my problem. It's there, it's been there, it's been going on for millions of years, and I'm going to continue to think that way. 

Good ideas and I now know that those fights are no longer allowed. I always thought it was crap anyway. Like you said, we have different sizes here, one is 24 pounds, one is 46 pounds...seems rather stupid to just let them tear each other apart. The little one, the girl, can get seriously hurt. I'm not cool with that.

Alright, I'm going to nip that little aggression in the bud.

Thanks, Liz.


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## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

Serenity, do you have a trainer? A good trainer would do wonders. Like those of us who sometimes don't really know what we are doing might give wrong food advice, the same thing happens with training tips. Everything I have ever learned about dogs told me that you don't let them "fight it out" and my own long, long history of owning multiple male dogs (mostly intact) taught me the same thing. Fights just escalate, in my experience.


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## RawFedDogs (Jun 16, 2008)

OK, time for my 2 cents. I don't think they are really fighting. Of course I can't see them but from my experience as a multiple dog owner for 20 years and as a professional for 15 and from your description, these two dogs are playing. The two Danes I have now used to do this every single day until Abby just got too old. Thor would get her to chase him. She would chase him and when she caught him she would pick him up and throw him 5 or 6 feet away from her and she would jump on him again, put her mouth either on his neck or throat and hold him down for a few minutes. All the time there was this feroucious growling. When she would let him up, he would jump up as if to say, "Hey, that was fun! Let's do it again" and off they were again. She would catch him 3 or 4 times before they wore themselves out. My 2 Goldens weren't quite that aggressive. They would tug on a rope. Everyday just after dinner, one would get the rope and shove it in the other's face until the tug started. There was lots of growling during that also.

You didn't say anything about blood or yelping so I assume there wasn't any. This is classic 2 friends playing together. If it were real fighting there would be lots of blood and there would be yelps when pain was inflicted. During a real fight there would always be pain inflicted. This is play.

Now for the other growling you are describing. I don't know what that is about but that is a situation were I would step in and stop it. Just a quick authoritative repremand. Not a lot of yelling or shouting. Just enough to stop it. You might put the growler in time out for a couple of minutes. I think I would also let the vet take a look at her to make sure she isn't experiencing some kind of pain or something causing her not to want another animal close to her. Another possibility is that maybe for some reason, she can't see well. I don't know. Thats why I would feel better if the vet took a look. If she gets a vet clearance, just stop her growling whenever it starts except during the previously mentioned play. Play is an acceptable time to growl.


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## SerenityFL (Sep 28, 2010)

RawFedDogs said:


> OK, time for my 2 cents. I don't think they are really fighting. Of course I can't see them but from my experience as a multiple dog owner for 20 years and as a professional for 15 and from your description, these two dogs are playing. The two Danes I have now used to do this every single day until Abby just got too old. Thor would get her to chase him. She would chase him and when she caught him she would pick him up and throw him 5 or 6 feet away from her and she would jump on him again, put her mouth either on his neck or throat and hold him down for a few minutes. All the time there was this feroucious growling. When she would let him up, he would jump up as if to say, "Hey, that was fun! Let's do it again" and off they were again. She would catch him 3 or 4 times before they wore themselves out. My 2 Goldens weren't quite that aggressive. They would tug on a rope. Everyday just after dinner, one would get the rope and shove it in the other's face until the tug started. There was lots of growling during that also.
> 
> You didn't say anything about blood or yelping so I assume there wasn't any. This is classic 2 friends playing together. If it were real fighting there would be lots of blood and there would be yelps when pain was inflicted. During a real fight there would always be pain inflicted. This is play.
> 
> Now for the other growling you are describing. I don't know what that is about but that is a situation were I would step in and stop it. Just a quick authoritative repremand. Not a lot of yelling or shouting. Just enough to stop it. You might put the growler in time out for a couple of minutes. I think I would also let the vet take a look at her to make sure she isn't experiencing some kind of pain or something causing her not to want another animal close to her. Another possibility is that maybe for some reason, she can't see well. I don't know. Thats why I would feel better if the vet took a look. If she gets a vet clearance, just stop her growling whenever it starts except during the previously mentioned play. Play is an acceptable time to growl.


Well Bill, you continue to say that they are not fighting but they ARE fighting. It's NOT playing in the slightest. The girl does not jump up and say, "Hey, that was fun, let's do it again", the girl finally breaks free from the boy who has caught her, pinned her down and clamped on to her throat, dragging her around, and tries to attack him. That is when the fight starts. When I said, "if she hates it so much why does she keep having him chase her", I meant the next day. She doesn't ask him to chase her again after they have it out. It's not every single time they chase, either. Some times he doesn't act like a prat when he catches her or sometimes she chases him. But many times, he is way too rough with her when he catches her. (High prey drive...something else I don't know how to fix when it comes to him catching her.)

Yes, he has drawn blood on her before, I have stated this before when talking about this before. And yes, she does yelp. I have, in the past, called him off but again, I was told that puppies never fight, I was told that I don't know what fighting really is, I was told it was just play and I was told I was wrong to break it up.

I'm telling you Bill, they are FIGHTING! And when he catches her, she yelps. When he's got her by the neck? She's yelping. When she finally gets free of him, she's so mad that she attacks him and then they start fighting and it is not play barking and growling, it's full on fight mode. They attack each other. He wins, every time, because he's twice her size. But it is not play. 

As for a vet check, I just took them to the vet, that's why I said they are healthy. She's just being a b*tch these days. So, I will step in and stop it. Time outs work really well on the boy so I guess it's her turn to learn what they are. (She's never had one...the worst thing she has ever done is sit on my couch while I'm gone.) 

xellil: Yes, I have a trainer now, I did not at the time I was given the advice I am talking about in these posts. The trainer I have obviously teaches for both dogs but the focus is on the boy and his dog aggression. Yes, it is behavior training but again, she never did anything wrong except jump on my couch the second I closed the door.  She just listens well and she's the one who picks up all the tricks really fast. She is, really, an exceptional dog. Just this growling business...that's why I'm so taken aback. She likes every human and every dog and never even cared about the cats before.

Edit, I should point out, his dog aggression is with dogs he doesn't know, not the girl.


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## chowder (Sep 7, 2008)

Well, I'll just tell you about the one situation that I had like yours, just for another point of view. I had two chows that were not related but were very very close in age. They did fine until they hit 2 years old. Then one girl got real bitchy. She started growling at the other and picking fights out of the blue (particularly when something like the meter reader came or they each got a treat or something like that). They would be playing and then suddenly it would turn into a 'rip your throat out' fight. As they got older, it became less and less playing and more and more fighting. These always ended up with blood and torn body parts. And she was the one that always started it all by growling first. 

Eventually we just had to keep them both separated at all times. It wasn't anything that I could ever work out with her. She was perfectly fine with people and never once growled at a human. It was just other animals. 

I know more about training now then I did back then so maybe I could work with a dog like that, but in all reality, I think she would have been best in a different situation. She was fine with my one male puppy that was a lot younger then her, so maybe she would have been okay in a house with a dog of a different age. 

I'm hoping a trainer helps with you. We did NOT allow any of the growling and fighting to 'take it's course' and stopped it every time just for safety sake. I had little kids in the house then and never allowed any dogs to growl at any time (unless it was real playing, you can tell when there's a difference).


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## Celt (Dec 27, 2010)

Just giving my own experiences here, but I have let dogs "work it out" but generally it's young pups (under 6 months) or if older dogs (just starting to "live together") as long as it's no more than a snarl, snap kinda thing and never more than that. Yes, I've seen as dogs get older their "attitude" can often change a lot (especially at about 6 months, 2 and 5 years). My experience is mostly with intact males though. 
Without being able to see how they play, I don't know how "violent" they get. I know with some of mine it sounded and looked like they were trying to kill each other, but that being said, I was "trained" (lol) that if any behavior "disturbs/annoys" you then "get rid of it". Personally, I would stop the "chase game", doesn't matter if sometimes it's fun or how much she seems to enjoy it. This game seems to be a "trigger" for a behavior you don't like, so get rid of the "trigger". As far as growling, I'm very "old worldish" in that I don't think a dog should ever seriously growl about my stuff, and it's all my stuff. Play growls are one thing, but serious growling no way, no how. The growler instantly loses what caused the growling. Growl over something (toy, food, etc), I take it away, but don't put it up. It's mine and I shouldn't have to. if it's an area, the dog has to move out of the area and is not allowed back until I decide. Umm, I'll stop babbling now.


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## SerenityFL (Sep 28, 2010)

Celt said:


> Just giving my own experiences here, but I have let dogs "work it out" but generally it's young pups (under 6 months) or if older dogs (just starting to "live together") as long as it's no more than a snarl, snap kinda thing and never more than that. Yes, I've seen as dogs get older their "attitude" can often change a lot (especially at about 6 months, 2 and 5 years). My experience is mostly with intact males though.
> Without being able to see how they play, I don't know how "violent" they get. I know with some of mine it sounded and looked like they were trying to kill each other, but that being said, I was "trained" (lol) that if any behavior "disturbs/annoys" you then "get rid of it". Personally, I would stop the "chase game", doesn't matter if sometimes it's fun or how much she seems to enjoy it. This game seems to be a "trigger" for a behavior you don't like, so get rid of the "trigger". As far as growling, I'm very "old worldish" in that I don't think a dog should ever seriously growl about my stuff, and it's all my stuff. Play growls are one thing, but serious growling no way, no how. The growler instantly loses what caused the growling. Growl over something (toy, food, etc), I take it away, but don't put it up. It's mine and I shouldn't have to. if it's an area, the dog has to move out of the area and is not allowed back until I decide. Umm, I'll stop babbling now.


No, don't stop "babbling", that was very helpful! Thank you! I now know what I'm going to do with her when she gets uppity. I'm sad that they won't get to chase anymore...because they both have great fun...until the end.


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## SerenityFL (Sep 28, 2010)

chowder said:


> Well, I'll just tell you about the one situation that I had like yours, just for another point of view. I had two chows that were not related but were very very close in age. They did fine until they hit 2 years old. Then one girl got real bitchy. She started growling at the other and picking fights out of the blue (particularly when something like the meter reader came or they each got a treat or something like that). They would be playing and then suddenly it would turn into a 'rip your throat out' fight. As they got older, it became less and less playing and more and more fighting. These always ended up with blood and torn body parts. And she was the one that always started it all by growling first.
> 
> Eventually we just had to keep them both separated at all times. It wasn't anything that I could ever work out with her. She was perfectly fine with people and never once growled at a human. It was just other animals.
> 
> ...


Yah, that's what I'm told. I'll either have to rehome one of them or keep them separate. Thus far I have defied those odds...as they tend to be fine when I'm there. However, they have fought when I wasn't there, (yes, fighting, I KNOW the difference), and I've had neighbors tell me they heard them fighting. I even heard them one time when I stepped out to talk to a neighbor. I was gone no more than 5-10 minutes. I was walking back to my place and heard them tearing in to each other. I will never be able to have them both out in the same room at the same time when I'm not there. I have to resort to a baby gate to keep them in different rooms. As they get older, the potential for serious injuries is greater.

But, when I'm there, I can nip it in the bud if I have to and I will be doing that each and every single time now. I started tonight. I did let them both out together and the boy wanted to chase and I let them for a little bit but when he finally caught her, I told him to come over to me. It took him a second, or two, but he did. So we will be reinforcing that! She is a high distraction for him so while I understand that he took a second or two to obey, for him to obey at all when she's around is enormous. Clearly I've done something right in all that training.

I would also like to know how to train him not to be such a jerk when he's caught her. Why can't he just act like other dogs that when he catches her, that's it. Why does he feel the need to pin her down, flip her around, bite on her neck, drag her around? God, it's so annoying! Just bowl her over and then chase again. Seriously!

I am doing everything I can to continue to defy the odds and I know that means that some things I do will have to be different than if these were two dogs, different ages, different litters. But I will keep working at this, feverishly, so that they CAN be together when I'm there.


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## Liz (Sep 27, 2010)

I was just thinking - what breeds are they? It amost sounds like a high prey drive. She starts running and becomes prey in his little boy mind and he can't shut off quick enough when he catches her. Just a thought. If she does not have a high prey drive herself she would not knwo to regulate her own behavior in the face of "danger".


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## lauren43 (Feb 6, 2011)

I personally would not let them get so "intense" as others have said. If you can seperate them with a little training secession when it gets too rough that would awesome. If they go at it again and its too rough try another training secession or just seperate them for a couple of minutes.

As for the girl guarding, I would take away anything you know she will guard (that may include her bed for the time being)...If she starts growling at the cats or the boy, I would try to get her attention by either doing a small training secession (sit, paw, down) or try to find something to take her mind off of it (like giving her a toy you know she will not guard from the others)...


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## SerenityFL (Sep 28, 2010)

Liz said:


> I was just thinking - what breeds are they? It amost sounds like a high prey drive. She starts running and becomes prey in his little boy mind and he can't shut off quick enough when he catches her. Just a thought. If she does not have a high prey drive herself she would not knwo to regulate her own behavior in the face of "danger".


They are lab mixes...mixed with what, I'm not sure. Remember, they were dumped off out of a car in to the middle of traffic so they are rescued and I don't know anything about their history, ("family" wise), nor their first three months of life.

She doesn't have much of a prey drive at all. She is just now starting to play fetch...sort of...but it's only with one toy, a little stuffed bear I found out in the garden when I was cleaning up the place. That's the only toy she is in love with. (Figures...how much money have I spent? And she wants the abandoned, dirty teddy bear. Sigh.)

His prey drive has always been high. It was a source of great problems when teaching him recall. I guess I don't understand that if she knows he's going to catch her and the result is typically the same, him playing too rough, why on earth does she beg him to chase her? What the real problem is, he plays too rough. I have started working on this but it's kind of hard to train to "back the hell off" with a long lead because he is unable to really chase her and work himself up when he's restrained. So...how do I do this? I'm not going in there while they are fighting, I'm not getting bit. So how do I work on teaching him to calm the hell down with voice? Last night what I did was say, loudly, and very firmly, "Enough! Shasta, come! here!" 

(Today we tried it again, he didn't want to listen so when I did finally get his damn attention, I hauled his butt off to the crate for a time out while Sakari and I continued to play outside. He really did not enjoy that. Whine!!! That's all he did. I waited for him to finally be quiet and let him back out, he started to go right for her again and I called him. He was a lot more responsive...but we still have work to do.

So, I know I'm speaking correctly to him...but I'm probably speaking wrong to her...someone is probably going to tell me I'm reinforcing even though she didn't start a fight that time, I was just calling him off of chasing her at high speeds.)

Like I said, he took a few seconds but he did come. I want him to get to the point where they can chase and he doesn't treat her like she's kill. What I would like is to have him act like a NORMAL dog that plays, chases and when catches, it's just a bit of rough housing or bowling over or mouthing, not clamping down on her neck, hard, and dragging her around. Because that's the only thing that pisses her off in play. Otherwise, they get along GREAT when they are outside together.

In the house, I will work on her thinking things belong to her, not me. I do this with toys, I let them know that the toys are MINE! I have done that since they were little puppies. They did get aggressive over toys, her mainly, growling, showing teeth, snapping. (And I know, if she really wanted to bite, she would bite because dogs don't miss.) And what I would do is say, "Ok, you clearly can't play nicely so the toys go away." And I would pick up all the toys and put them back in the bin. At night time I would do the same. When it was time for bed, I would pick up all the toys, making a huge ceremony out of it to let them know, these are mine, I bought them, they belong to me, not you. I'm just letting you play with them but now I'm taking them back. And in the morning, I would put out one toy for each. If they started to do that whole, "Wow! This is the best toy EvAh!!!11!!!" and then decide that the toy I gave the other hoodlum is even better than that and try to steal it, I would take the toys up.

But now she's getting all uppity with the fricken mat in front of the door. "My mat! Get away!" Really?! "My bed, how dare you come near!" Am I supposed to make her sleep on the hard floor?

Regardless, something seems to be working in the short time I've been trying this because last night, Shasta was on his bed, a cat was on Sakari's bed and she chose to sit outside the bedroom door, staring in, back and forth to me and the cat on her bed, rather than have a sh*t fit about her bed. LOL! Seriously, dog. Seriously.

Now, you'll probably tell me that what I did was wrong but when it was time to go to bed, I picked up the cat off of her bed and then opened the door all the way, gesturing to her in my usual way, (a dramatic hand sweep from door to bed), to let her know she could now come in and sleep on her bed. I want them next to my bed for two reasons: I like them there. They are my little "pack" and I want them near me when we sleep. And also, I don't want them roaming the house while I'm sleeping, getting in to trouble.

So, since I'm learning that things I do mean all kinds of different in dog speak, any idea what I just told my girl hoodlum with that action?

Oh and also, I tested the toy thing again and yep, she gets uppity about toys and growls. Does that mean she never gets a toy? Even when I distract her or tell her, "no", she quiets for a second and then goes back to growling if she feels one of the others is going to take the toy away. Or will this eventually stop if I keep telling her, "no" when she growls. And that brings us to another point...I was told, here, that if I don't let them growl, they will never learn to communicate properly and that they will just up and bite one day since I don't allow the growling.

So. Lost!


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## lauren43 (Feb 6, 2011)

I personally would have no toys (or anything she gets uppity about) out when everyone is free roaming in the house. For me toys would be items only for 1 on 1 time. Depending on the dog, sometimes toys outside are not the same as inside, so if she doesn't guard outside they can have them out there. 

As far as the bed goes, if you want her to have a bed to sleep in and it hasn't caused any fights (ie she only growls at everyone when they are too close to her bed) then I would leave it at that. Praising when another animals walks by and she doesn't growl at them. If however, she is already snapping when the other animals get "in her space" I would remove the bed, that bed is a privilege and she is taking advantage of it. The last thing you want is your pups getting into a tiff over the bed (or worse her going after the cat)...

As for the boy, I would stop all chasing. They are allowed to play but if that play leads to chasing I would distract them or find something more appropriate for them to do together. If this is the root of the most fights and the most intense fights, you want to do everything in your power to stop these particular fights from happening. Does this mean they can never play chase again? Hopefully not, but if stopping the chasing keeps the peace between the two of them...Woo Hoo! I think time outs are great, I think you can use time outs for many of these issues...even if they end up in time out 5+ times (in a row), they will learn!

=======================================================
Sadly this is the reason some rescues will not adopt out siblings or same sex pairings, unfortunately they seem more likely to fight. I know many many people who's dogs lived in peace for months (sometimes years) and then either they near 2 years or they have one little tiff and things never go back to complete harmony...

Actually of the 3 ppl I can think of:
One has 4 dogs and the two boys cannot be together
One has 2 dogs boy and girl, one fight and now they are on rather strict crate and rotate, she is actually looking to rehome the newest pup 
And the other is the same as the one above but she loves both her dogs far to much to consider rehoming so they manage seperately.


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

sounds like a teenager, moody and all pms-y...

on the verge of womanhood...


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## RCTRIPLEFRESH5 (Feb 11, 2010)

im confused are they all fed at the same time? if they are all fed together in their own closed crates than i dont understand what you mean by ';'her growling when they walk by her crate. sorry ican;t offer any other help 


SerenityFL said:


> In the last three or so days, my girl hoodlum has been demonstrating a nasty attitude towards the boy hoodlum and the cats. Seems every five seconds, she's growling and showing her teeth to any one of them. I'm not sure what's going on except that they are coming up to about a year and a half in age and I suspect that some things in their behavior will change.
> 
> But she's growling for stupid things that never bothered her before. Example, she growls at the cats if they stand in the door way to the bedroom. She growls at the boy or the cats if they walk by her. She growls when she's lying on her bed and they come "too close" according to her, trying to get up on my bed, (the cats), or the boy is lying too close to her. She's growling if they walk by her crate while she's eating. (They get fed in the crate to keep the mess down and to avoid this behavior...sigh. The crate is closed while they eat and no time has any cat or the other dog EVER been able to interrupt their meal or take their food from them, ever.) She growls if I'm petting both hoodlums and she thinks the boy needs to go away.
> 
> ...


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## Celt (Dec 27, 2010)

I guess, since my last babbling helped I'll try it again. :0) In my experience it is possible to sorta train a dog not to "kill" at the end of a chase but it takes a lot of effort, and it takes less than a blink of an eye for all that effort to go down the drain. It would be easier and (more likely) longer lasting to just stop the chasing. As for mats/beds, the dog has to move away from whatever it is and not come back towards it until I allow it. The behavior you described of her bed "incident" would be exactly what I would be looking for. Because instead of trying to deal with the situation (fit throwing) herself, she looked to you to "fix it" and you did in your own "sweet time" and she ended up with what she wanted. Like with everything else, toys are mine that means I can take them away and if I feel like it give it to someone else. Just like with most dog sounds, there are different "types" of growls. If a dog is giving a "I'm playing with this you can't have it" growl (usually has a play like posture)to another pet then I don't do much, but a "get away or I'll get you" growl (threat posture) that I put a stop to. I'll leave it at this, hope something I said might help.


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## catahoulamom (Sep 23, 2010)

When it comes to the guarding, I also think it's best to remove all items she tends to guard. Topher and Rambo are great with toys, they share and trade and there's never so much as a lip lifted or growl, but Finnigan absolutely CANNOT have toys around other dogs. If I give it to him, he'll squeak it for a minute, and then lay down with it between his front legs with his head down over it. Sometimes it looks darn cute, he'll lay down with his head on his toy, but I know the second a dog walks by too close he'll give them the stink face and if they get too close he might snap. I've been able to manage this situation very well by rotating... while Toph & Rambo & Podie are outside I'll let Finn run around the living room with his toy, and before I let them back in I take it away and put it out of sight (out of mind). I used to feel bad, but I don't anymore because as long as theres other dogs around he isn't able to fully enjoy his toy anyway, hes so damn neurotic about guarding it.

If you notice her body language change and see her guarding something, such as the mat in front of the door, I would immediately make a loud high-pitched noise or say something silly to get her attention (or even run into another room - she'll follow you), and hopefully she'll leave the spot and forget that she has to "protect it". Once the attention has been taken off the item I remove it. 

Sorry I don't have any better input, that's just what I do! I've been told many times I cannot completely stop his guarding, it's a natural behavior (he doesn't guard when it comes to people, anybody can take anything away from him - just dogs). I think it's manageable.


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## SerenityFL (Sep 28, 2010)

lauren43 said:


> I personally would have no toys (or anything she gets uppity about) out when everyone is free roaming in the house. For me toys would be items only for 1 on 1 time. Depending on the dog, sometimes toys outside are not the same as inside, so if she doesn't guard outside they can have them out there.


The funny thing is, she doesn't give a fig about the toys outside. She enjoys playing with her dirty teddy bear but I only play with that with her when we are one on one. Mainly because I want it to last, the boy will destroy it in minutes. My concern, though, is during the day. What do I give her to do so that she isn't bored? I keep her and the boy separate with a baby gate but what about when a cat has the audacity to come by or investigate what she's doing and she wants to give attitude? Do I really give her nothing to do all day while I'm gone? 



> As far as the bed goes, if you want her to have a bed to sleep in and it hasn't caused any fights (ie she only growls at everyone when they are too close to her bed) then I would leave it at that. Praising when another animals walks by and she doesn't growl at them. If however, she is already snapping when the other animals get "in her space" I would remove the bed, that bed is a privilege and she is taking advantage of it. The last thing you want is your pups getting into a tiff over the bed (or worse her going after the cat)...


She hasn't snapped, just growled.



> As for the boy, I would stop all chasing. They are allowed to play but if that play leads to chasing I would distract them or find something more appropriate for them to do together. If this is the root of the most fights and the most intense fights, you want to do everything in your power to stop these particular fights from happening. Does this mean they can never play chase again? Hopefully not, but if stopping the chasing keeps the peace between the two of them...Woo Hoo! I think time outs are great, I think you can use time outs for many of these issues...even if they end up in time out 5+ times (in a row), they will learn!


So I did this tonight. I thought, "Ok...they can still play together but the whole chasing business and catching...no." Well, of course he started to chase her and I made a split second decision to let it happen but that I would stop it when he caught her, as I did last night. Tonight, when he caught her, before he clamped down, I said, in a normal tone even! "Alright! That's it. You're done."

AND HE STOPPED AND LOOKED AT ME! Then? He found something else to do.

Holy crap!

Later, she chased him, which happens once in awhile and that never ends badly so I'm far, far more relaxed when she's chasing him. And then, even later, they decided to chase again, him chasing her and again, right when he caught her and their legs were still smacking at each other, (they're still playing here), I said what I said earlier, "Alright! That's enough. Come here."

And he did. No "killing the prey" tonight. 



> =======================================================
> Sadly this is the reason some rescues will not adopt out siblings or same sex pairings, unfortunately they seem more likely to fight. I know many many people who's dogs lived in peace for months (sometimes years) and then either they near 2 years or they have one little tiff and things never go back to complete harmony...


As much as I hate to say this, I completely understand now why that is. If someone is not willing or able to put in the time, (I can because I have no life), or if someone is not willing to work with a trainer, (and not Petco "feel good" training, either, I'm talking a "real" trainer who can work on behavior, not walking your dog on a leash around other dogs...and yes, they cost a pretty penny), if someone is not willing to be "on them" constantly, (and I mean, all. the. time), and if someone is not willing to admit that things have to be done differently, then no, they really should not get two siblings. 

I have worked my ARSE off with these hoodlums. I couldn't even possibly tell you the hours we have accumulated with training because it's constant. It's not like I go outside and train for 10 minutes and we are done, it's constant because if I was not constantly on them, letting them know what was right and what was wrong, I am sure I would have had to rehome one by now. I'm doing everything I can, spending a lot of money and time and asking questions for all kinds of opinions and experiences so that I do this right and they CAN be together in the capacity that they are able. Like I said, I will never be able to leave them both alone, in the house, without something separating them. I know this. But while I'm there, they can be together because we have done so. much. work. Some of it's hard on me. Like, when they are lying on their little beds looking adorable, I cannot go up to them and pet them like I want to. I have to have them come to me. For these two, it HAS to be that way. I can NOT let them on the bed or furniture. For these two, it can NOT be that way. I can not ever, for even a second, have them believe they are "in charge" and not me. Because these two will exploit it, will run with it, will then start barking orders to the other one...it has to be different. It's not all "feel good, happy, clicker, treat, yay!!!!!!" all the time. It's different. I acknowledge this and accept it. Not everyone can. And that is why I agree with them. And who knows...as they get older, I may find out that all of my hard work will not have worked out anyway. But I am trying with everything I have. 



magicre said:


> sounds like a teenager, moody and all pms-y...
> 
> on the verge of womanhood...


Yep. That's what I've been told...not in those words but basically, just that. As they get older, things are going to change and I'll have to work even harder.



RCTRIPLEFRESH5 said:


> im confused are they all fed at the same time? if they are all fed together in their own closed crates than i dont understand what you mean by ';'her growling when they walk by her crate. sorry ican;t offer any other help


I meant the cats. The hoodlums eat in their own crates. It's when the cats walk by her crate while she's chowing down that she growls...which, to me, is ridiculous because there is no way they can get to her food. They never have. Yes, they are all fed at the same time but sometimes the cats like to drag their food to other parts of the house, away from the other cats and sometimes that means they walk right by her crate while she's eating.



Celt said:


> I guess, since my last babbling helped I'll try it again. :0) In my experience it is possible to sorta train a dog not to "kill" at the end of a chase but it takes a lot of effort, and it takes less than a blink of an eye for all that effort to go down the drain. It would be easier and (more likely) longer lasting to just stop the chasing. As for mats/beds, the dog has to move away from whatever it is and not come back towards it until I allow it. The behavior you described of her bed "incident" would be exactly what I would be looking for. Because instead of trying to deal with the situation (fit throwing) herself, she looked to you to "fix it" and you did in your own "sweet time" and she ended up with what she wanted. Like with everything else, toys are mine that means I can take them away and if I feel like it give it to someone else. Just like with most dog sounds, there are different "types" of growls. If a dog is giving a "I'm playing with this you can't have it" growl (usually has a play like posture)to another pet then I don't do much, but a "get away or I'll get you" growl (threat posture) that I put a stop to. I'll leave it at this, hope something I said might help.


Well thank God, I did something right! lol

I was HOPING that was the message I was sending to her last night...I was so sure I was going to be told I said something else but to find out that what I was trying to say to her actually was what she was "hearing", what a relief.

Her growls when she's sitting on the mat by the front door or on her bed are not play growls. She's telling the cats to get away. The mat thing is going to be hard because it gets wet and dirty here in Maine and I'd like to be able to keep it there to wipe my shoes before I walk further in to the house. So I guess when I'm there, I just remove her from the mat? And do I just tell her to come to me or do I actually get up and make her move?

The bed situation...the room I chose for my bedroom is not all that huge. It's decent sized but once you throw in a bed, dresser and night stand with t.v. on top, it doesn't leave a lot of room. I have down a sleeping bag, the one they slept on the very first night I found them. On top of that are their two little beds, one on each end of the bag. I'd say there is about 2 feet between them but that's all the room I have. She never had an issue before...now she is. She isn't growling so much at the boy, (sometimes), as she is the cats. Although she's small, she does eat raw and has powerful jaws so I don't want her injuring a cat. 

So...since it's not snapping...just let her growl or still tell her, "no" or distract her when she does?


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## Liz (Sep 27, 2010)

Sounds like you are getting a handle on it. They are lucky to have you. I understand how much work you put into them but it will pay off. You will have lovely companions in the future. You are doing a good job - stay firm and keep control.


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## lauren43 (Feb 6, 2011)

SerenityFL said:


> The funny thing is, she doesn't give a fig about the toys outside. She enjoys playing with her dirty teddy bear but I only play with that with her when we are one on one. Mainly because I want it to last, the boy will destroy it in minutes. My concern, though, is during the day. What do I give her to do so that she isn't bored? I keep her and the boy separate with a baby gate but what about when a cat has the audacity to come by or investigate what she's doing and she wants to give attitude? Do I really give her nothing to do all day while I'm gone?


Is she in her crate when you are gone? Or just a seperate room? I take it, in this case your worried about the cats? I really wouldn't worry about her not having toys while you are not home (as long as she's not the type of dog to go after something she shouldn't). Avery has had restricted toys since I got him, he is no less "entertained". I rent and I am on the upper floor with very thin floors, at night Avery used to take his toys at chuck them around the room...lets just say at 2am that was not appreciated by my roommate. He also can't have toys in his crate because he destroys them and I don't want to worry about him eating a toy while I am not home. So don't worry too much about her being bored during they day, besides they spend most of their time sleeping anyways.



SerenityFL said:


> So...since it's not snapping...just let her growl or still tell her, "no" or distract her when she does?


You could do either. Tell her no. Ask her off the mat. Distract her. Or even praise her when the cats walk by and she doesn't make any noises.


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## Celt (Dec 27, 2010)

With my lot, I've always made them move. Usually, I'll just walk up and kind of "herd" them off, sometimes I'd add the command "off". With the bed, I would start with just saying "enough" and if that doesn't work making her leave for a bit then reinviting her in. And I understand about not everything can be about click and treat. Yes, most things can be trained this way but I've had times where it just wasn't working. But then again it took a looong time before I could even be convinced to use "food" for training rewards, I was raised that praise was the reward otherwise the dog would be looking for food to work for instead of working for you. Better sto rambling now.
Wanted to add a "good on you" for getting the boy to play nice. :0)


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## MollyWoppy (Mar 19, 2010)

I'm reading what you say about the dog with the cats very closely. Mollie, surprised the hell out of me, took a chunk of fur out of Windy last night when Windy went after her cornish hen. So we are now having some attitude adjustments round here as well. 
I think you are doing a great job and I'm learning a lot from your experience.


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## SerenityFL (Sep 28, 2010)

Julie said:


> I used to feel bad, but I don't anymore because as long as theres other dogs around he isn't able to fully enjoy his toy anyway, hes so damn neurotic about guarding it.


I am going to feel bad about it but you raise a good point. You're right, they aren't truly, fully enjoying it if they think they have to guard it all day long. 



lauren43 said:


> Is she in her crate when you are gone? Or just a seperate room? I take it, in this case your worried about the cats? I really wouldn't worry about her not having toys while you are not home (as long as she's not the type of dog to go after something she shouldn't). Avery has had restricted toys since I got him, he is no less "entertained". I rent and I am on the upper floor with very thin floors, at night Avery used to take his toys at chuck them around the room...lets just say at 2am that was not appreciated by my roommate. He also can't have toys in his crate because he destroys them and I don't want to worry about him eating a toy while I am not home. So don't worry too much about her being bored during they day, besides they spend most of their time sleeping anyways.


She's got access to the house, (except the kitchen where the boy stays), because, again, up until recently, she has done NOTHING wrong. Ever. (Except, like I said, she will jump on the couch the minute I close that door. She's a little liar, too because she'll "pretend" to go to her crate as if she's going to be a good dog all day while I'm gone but I've told her, "Oh nok it off, we both know you're going to the couch the second you hear my car start up." She must speak English because she doesn't even try to fake it anymore. LOL!) The cats also have free roam and because she has never even been remotely interested in them in the past, they walk right on by her, stick their noses in her business, sleep right next to her, etc. It's just this past week that she started growling at them for doing what they have always done. And I fear that if I'm not there...will she do something? I'll try this tomorrow and see what happens. And pray that she does not decide to chew on my couch. I will then have to kill her.



> You could do either. Tell her no. Ask her off the mat. Distract her. Or even praise her when the cats walk by and she doesn't make any noises.


Lately the only time she doesn't make noise when they walk by is when she's sleeping. But I've been telling her, "no" and poking her to make her look at me, not them. 



Celt said:


> With my lot, I've always made them move. Usually, I'll just walk up and kind of "herd" them off, sometimes I'd add the command "off". With the bed, I would start with just saying "enough" and if that doesn't work making her leave for a bit then reinviting her in. And I understand about not everything can be about click and treat. Yes, most things can be trained this way but I've had times where it just wasn't working. But then again it took a looong time before I could even be convinced to use "food" for training rewards, I was raised that praise was the reward otherwise the dog would be looking for food to work for instead of working for you. Better sto rambling now.
> Wanted to add a "good on you" for getting the boy to play nice. :0)


The leaving and re - inviting thing might just work with her. She is a soft dog so the click and treat has worked well on her in the past: Getting her to focus on me, getting her to heel, getting recall down, with her, click and treat was the answer. She became extremely eager to please. However, I started weaning her off of that as we advanced in training on those because she got to the point that she was no longer focusing on me and was focusing on my hand where the treat was. 

With her, really, tons of attention and hugs and the like are actually working better than treats. She now looks at my eyes and not my hand. She is now doing things because she WANTS to do them because she knows she's gonna get a ticker tape parade, complete with mariachi band and dancing. She loves that more than treats. With corrections, I really have to be soft with her because she's soft. I over corrected her one time, way, way back when. Boy was that the wrong thing to do. I realized, at that time, I could not train her like I train the boy. The boy is hard, stubborn and he does not respond to clicker and treats. She did and she cannot be told things firmly, either. I have to speak to her softly and then we go paint the town red when she does something good or right.

She's smart as hell, too. She picks things up quick. The "left", "right" paw trick? She learned that in about 5 minutes. The boy still doesn't understand, "shake". 

Anyway, finding the right way to correct her was not easy but then again, I've never really had to correct her because she did everything I asked, once she knew what I was asking her to do. If I tell her, "sit"? She sits. If I tell her "stop"? She stops. I can stand clear across the yard and tell her, "come", she starts coming over, I then say, "stop", she drops, right there and lies down until I say, "come" again. We do this all the way across the yard and she makes me look like a professional dog trainer. (The boy is another story..."Shasta, come!" "Hurray, I'm going to the human!" "Shasta, stop!" "Hurray, I'm going to the human....stop? Huh? Oh look! A butterfly!")

I'm hoping that instead of just saying to her "no" every time she growls, I can say, instead, "no" and then move her somewhere else for a few minutes. With her, I think that will actually work. I'll let you know how it goes.

I will also give it another shot with playing/chasing tomorrow and if he continues to respond how I want, I will continue to reinforce. In fact, I may bring out a bucket o' treats for him. If he fails...then I'll have to put him on a long line and stop the chasing until he learns to calm the hell down.


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## lauren43 (Feb 6, 2011)

As far as the toys and the cats, do you think she has the potential to go "after" the cats? Or do you think she is just doing it when your home? Perhaps a video camera is in order (LOL). I believe 'know thy dog' if you think she could attack a cat I wouldn't even leave them unsupervised. If you think she is unlikely to go after a cat, then I wouldn't worry too so much.


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## SerenityFL (Sep 28, 2010)

lauren43 said:


> As far as the toys and the cats, do you think she has the potential to go "after" the cats? Or do you think she is just doing it when your home? Perhaps a video camera is in order (LOL). I believe 'know thy dog' if you think she could attack a cat I wouldn't even leave them unsupervised. If you think she is unlikely to go after a cat, then I wouldn't worry too so much.


"Know thy dog" is right. I thought I did. Then she up and changed things. I have never worried about her around the cats. Do I think she would go after one? I don't know, 100%, for sure. I mean, she's a dog...she may, she may not.

However, update:

We tried the playing/chasing again today and again, the boy did brilliantly. They chased, he started to go for her throat and I told him to, "Leave it". (I KNOW, I have to pick ONE and stick with it...I'm just blurting things out right now but 'leave it' seemed to get his attention fast.) He "left it" and he came to me even though I did not ask him to come to me. 

Then she chased him, (I think she's starting to feel more comfortable now because while she has chased him in the past, it's never been this often...twice already this week? That hasn't happened before), and of course, everything went fine. He did spin around on her and I saw his mouth reaching for her throat so I said, "leave it", again and he listened. And, yes, they chased a third time, him chasing her, and again, "Leave it" and he didn't bite her neck and drag her around. He pulled back, looked at me, then they went off together sniffing the yard. 

(Of course, I'm wondering if some of this had to do with him witnessing me "handle" the neighbor dog. There's a dog, another Golden, on the other side of the fence and this dog LOVES to come charging over to the fence, barking his fool head off. Naturally, Sakari bolts over to say hi and wants to play, Shasta charges over to kill. There are gaps in the fence and I have had to put things up to block those gaps, (mainly it was to keep Sakari in cause she did slip through one day and was in their yard...gah!), which includes logs, 5 gallon drums filled with water, a lattice, etc. Well, the one gap that this Golden goes to all the time is where the lattice is. I saw today, that the boy and this Golden can actually touch. They couldn't do much but they could maybe get a tooth scrape in if they were lucky. This has been part of our ongoing training with Shasta's dog aggression, this encounter with the Golden, and I called him off...he didn't listen at first but he didn't bark at first, either...which is a step in the right direction. But he did, eventually and those two, God, if that fence ever comes down, there's going to be dead dogs, for sure. So I had to go over there and push his butt while telling him to "GO!" but the Golden kept on barking and barking and barking like he wanted to rip Sakari's head off, which upset Shasta but he was "Go" ing like I asked him to. Anyway, I stared at the Golden through this gap, clapped my hands and then said in the calmest voice I've ever had, "That's enough". That dog shut up immediately. My boy witnessed this, (which is a very good thing), and he did absolutely everything I wanted him to do today after that. So...that could have been part of the success.)

In other news, Sakari got a time out today because she was pissing me off. I tried the moving her thing from one spot to another when she growled and all she did was growl from her new spot. :doh:

I took the toys away but she still growled at them for being too close to her.

I went downstairs to start making something to eat and she just growled and growled and growled and I was tired of saying, "NO!" So that was it. I, frustrated, said, "No, damnit!" and put her in her crate. Left her there for about 10 minutes.

She hasn't growled since.

Interesting.


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## chowder (Sep 7, 2008)

It sounds like you are doing great with them! If anyone has a chance with these guys, it is you. I think you may just out 'stubborn' them!

Do you think maybe the girl is flexing her muscle because she has full access to the house when you are gone and the boy doesn't? Maybe she is now seeing the house as "her's" because he is put up in the kitchen. Sort of like 'nyah nyah....this is all mine, not yours'. 

We do the same thing with Shade and Rocky. Shade is put in the laundry room at night and Rocky roams free....just because Shade used to chew things when we first got him. So far it hasn't been an issue but I could see where it might cause jealousy problems. 

Then again.....maybe it's just her going through a cranky stage.


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## SerenityFL (Sep 28, 2010)

chowder said:


> It sounds like you are doing great with them! If anyone has a chance with these guys, it is you. I think you may just out 'stubborn' them!
> 
> Do you think maybe the girl is flexing her muscle because she has full access to the house when you are gone and the boy doesn't? Maybe she is now seeing the house as "her's" because he is put up in the kitchen. Sort of like 'nyah nyah....this is all mine, not yours'.
> 
> ...


Oh, I can get pretty darn stubborn. And when it comes to these hoodlums, while it's exhausting at times, I will out stubborn them. I out stubborned the girl when she held her pee for 24 hours. I wanted to KILL her, but I out stubborned (new word) her. Now she pees when I fricken tell her to, "hurry up", after she pulled that stunt and realized she was not going to win.

Anyway, I don't know if she's flexing her muscles. Before I moved here, the boy had to be in his crate while I was gone. The reason is because where I lived, none of the doors stayed shut and the doorways were far too narrow for a baby gate. That is, I could NEVER find one that fit 24". The closest was 25". The good news is, I worked very close to where I lived so I was able, almost every day, to come home at some point and let them out to do their bidness and stretch their legs. Anyway, she did have free access back then because once she realized that peeing in the house was not going to win her any favors, she did everything I asked. She left the cats alone, she didn't tear up my things, she didn't chew my couch, bed, comforter, cupboards, etc like the boy did when I would test him. And she never acted like this.

When I first moved here, I didn't have a baby gate and while I was out, he had to go to his crate. She had access. Still she didn't act like this. I finally got a baby gate, put him in the kitchen, (which is a good sized room), and she had the rest of the house and she still didn't act like this. It wasn't until this week that she started with her growling bit. So I'm not sure that has anything to do with it.

I think she's just being a cranky little beast.

She was silent most of the rest of the evening after her time out in the crate but she did growl a few times later on. I will be reinforcing those time outs. Really, it doesn't take long for her to get the picture...I just have to find out WHAT means something to her. Apparently, "No" and moving her to another spot, (not in the crate), does not bother her enough to stop. But the crate? She HATEESSSSEEESSSSS the crate. The only time she likes going in there is when it's feeding time. Then the crate is the best place in the world. So, I think I shall continue with the crate...something she terribly despises, and maybe that will send the message home. We'll see.


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## chowder (Sep 7, 2008)

SerenityFL said:


> I think she's just being a cranky little beast.
> 
> She was silent most of the rest of the evening after her time out in the crate but she did growl a few times later on. I will be reinforcing those time outs. So, I think I shall continue with the crate...something she terribly despises, and maybe that will send the message home. We'll see.


I think you probably hit the nail on the head, and also the solution. I LOVE the idea of time out for a really smart dog like she seems to be. They are the ones that know darn well what they are suppose to do and are usually so easy to train. The good thing with that kind of dog is that it probably won't take many 'time outs' for her to get the message. 

Now the dogs that take 6 months to learn to shake paws.....those guys are tougher!


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## SerenityFL (Sep 28, 2010)

chowder said:


> I think you probably hit the nail on the head, and also the solution. I LOVE the idea of time out for a really smart dog like she seems to be. They are the ones that know darn well what they are suppose to do and are usually so easy to train. The good thing with that kind of dog is that it probably won't take many 'time outs' for her to get the message.
> 
> Now the dogs that take 6 months to learn to shake paws.....those guys are tougher!


HAHAHA! I know! Shasta is the one who appears to be "slow". I don't know if he just doesn't get, "shake" or he adamantly refuses to give up the power by lifting a paw to me. The other thing is, he is just so. damn. happy all the time. He smiles all the time. Everything is an adventure to him.

"ZomG! We're going in to the next room! Road trip!!!!!" He is so eager to please but again, he started his life having to be "in charge" and protect his siblings. One of them was hit and killed and I think, (just guessing), he may have taken on that role even more serious after that. He is so reluctant to let it go. But, we are getting there. God, just today...ok, a little off topic but it's a story that sort of goes with all of this:

Because the neighbors just couldn't see fit to clean up their dog's poo and I got tired of cleaning it up, (I filled a 13 gallon kitchen garbage bag with their dog's poo over the time I've been here and finally said to the landlord, "Enough of this!" So she came and put up a plastic fence. I have 3/4 of the yard to use, the neighbors with the Golden, (not the one on the other side of the wooden fence that comes over and riles Shasta up), got 1/4 of the yard. They seem content, I think it's sad but at least we got the bigger section. And no more stupid dog poo to clean up. 

Anyway, that fence has been up one week now. I was doing some weedeating today, the hoodlums were in my part of the yard, playing and whatever, were getting along great so I started to do some yard work. I saw out of the corner of my eye that the neighbor came out with their Golden, I watched a little bit, called Shasta off from the fence line cause he was barking at the dog and he backed off. I resumed my weed eating. He did it again about 5 minutes later so I called him off again. He backed off, I resumed my weed eating. My fault. I should have put him in a long down stay. But, I was concentrating on this weed eating trying to make the yard look good, I felt safe with the fence there and I made a stupid choice by not watching and reinforcing.

The next thing I know, both of my hoodlums are on THEIR side of the fence. Sakari was all, "hurray! play with me!" and Shasta was all, "I'll kill you!!!" and he and the Golden were just getting started with having a good fight. They weren't really fighting just yet...a lot of smack talking was going on, some leg punches were being thrown but they hadn't got to the point of really getting in to it. The neighbor, (who was not out with her Golden), came back out and was trying to break it up. I heard the commotion, saw my damn hoodlums over there, ran over there and called my boy off. I was livid. I put him in his crate inside without speaking to him after, "NO!" because I was so mad at him. I then kept asking, "How the f*** did that happen?!!?!" Because I know they won't jump over the fence, the baby gate across the back of the porch steps to the neighbors is impossible for the hoodlums to get over because of how it is situated...how did this happen!?! 

We eventually found a gap at the far end near the wooden fence that separates the property from other homes. GAH! So the neighbor and I spent a good 10 minutes gathering things up to block that gap as well as "staple" down areas in the plastic fence where my hoodlums might try to push under. I then got Shasta out, I stood in the neighbor's yard and called him over. He could not get through, (and he first made a beeline to where that gap had been which confirms for me that was how they got in), and started whining. Great. Problem solved.

The neighbor brought her dog back out, I put Shasta on a leash, just in case, let it drag and we watched to see if there would be any repeats. Well. For some reason, Shasta didn't want to have anything to do with that other dog now. He wouldn't even LOOK at that other dog. I threw a ball right to the fence line and he went to get it but kind of lipped it and dropped it and came back away from the fence. I kept telling him, "Look! There's a dog over there! Close to the property! He's having fun and playing! Aren't you going to stop that?" Shasta wouldn't even acknowledge. The neighbor threw a frisbee for her dog and her dog was jumping and running around and Shasta ignored it all.

This is good for two reasons. He can get used to another dog being in the same fricken vicinity as him and not get all riled up. He can learn to fricken calm down around other dogs. He also learned, (and thank GOD no dog got hurt), that not all dogs are going to back down. That golden held its own and I think Shasta didn't know what to do with that. It was like a mind ---- for him. "Oh crap, other dogs could beat my arse!"

It also calmed him down around the girl. They chased after that, really got in to it, chasing and chasing and chasing and chasing and chasing and chasing....top speed...and he didn't even try to go for her neck. The most they did was bat at each other with their legs, get bowled over and it was done.

In turn? She hasn't growled YET today! (This all happened earlier.) They are getting along splendidly on their little doggie beds, 2 feet from each other and not a peep from her.

Very. Interesting.

I'm learning quite a bit from these two. 

Anyway, also yes, you are very right, she knows damn good and well what she's supposed to be doing. I have seen her look at me under her eyelashes more times than I care to count, seeing if I'm serious and thinking if she's going to test me or not. I just stare right back at her and make the face that says, "Oh, please, go ahead and try me, miss thang". And she looks a little longer, trying to read whether I'm serious or not, figures I am and then does what she's supposed to do. Yah, she's a smart one and I HAVE to be extremely consistent with her. One time I am not, I will have to start all. over. and I cannot take that again.


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