# Help with Raw Feeding



## isabellak (Oct 26, 2010)

Please see my last post.

Hi everyone. I've been exploring this forum and there is a lot of great information here. I hope someone can help with this issue I am having. I have a Great Pyrenees puppy. She is 10 months old and weighs 85 pounds. I have been feeding her raw since she was 2 months old.

I started out by researching raw food recipes and making my own. She has never done well on bones, so I would use ground meat, veggies, fruit, eggs. As she got older, that became overwhelming and I switched to Primal raw.

At first she devoured her food, but in the last 6, or so, weeks, she has become very finicky. She's barely eating 2 patties a day, which is no where near what she requires based on weight.

I really don't want to switch her to Kibble, but I'm not sure what to do at this point. I'm thinking about going back to making my own food.

Any suggestions? Thanks so much for your help.


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## SerenityFL (Sep 28, 2010)

First I have to ask, what do you mean when you say, "She's never done well on bones"? What does that mean, exactly?

As for picky...you do it how you want but I don't give in to stubborn behavior. 

I would put the food down to eat, if the dog doesn't eat it after a certain amount of time, I'd pick it up, store it and put it out again the next day. I would continue to do this for a few days. 

How big are the patties that you are feeding her?


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

i would ask the same question.....about her not doing well on bones...

like serenity, i'm a great believer in putting the food down, give her twenty minutes and picking the food up.

they get the message pretty soon.

i can hear the frustration in your post.....can you give us a little more information?


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## deb9017 (Aug 31, 2010)

I think bones are an important part of the raw diet. I know that the premade raw food has ground bone in it, but by getting it this way they are missing out on all the dental benefits of chewing on the bones and tearing the meat off the bones. Maybe your dog just needs to get used to eating bones, and then will do okay?


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## isabellak (Oct 26, 2010)

You are right, she is stubborn and I do give into her :frown:
It ridiculous what I'm doing, adding moist food, hand feeding, adding parmesan cheese. I guess I'm just concerned that she needs to eat because she is a growing puppy.

The few times I have given her chicken necks and she got diarrhea, so I stopped. That's when I started her on Primal.

The more I'm reading here, though, the more I'm starting to rethink this whole approach. Maybe I should just try the PMR. I really have never given it a chance.


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## SerenityFL (Sep 28, 2010)

They can have some interesting deposits as they switch but keep it up. I'd start off with feeding chicken quarters, backs for a couple of weeks. The poop should become more solid. (Might be yellow, though.)

Still not sure what you mean when you say she hasn't done well on bones. If she chews them, that's good. If she gulps, hold it for her until she learns to chew. Also, they don't have to chew as much as we do. This was alarming for me the first time I watched the dogs eat their chicken bones. I was already apprehensive, after receiving years of brain washing telling me that chicken bones will kill my dogs, so when they chewed them once, twice, three times, GULP! I was like, 'AH! Oh crap!' But no, they don't chew their food like we do. Just make sure they chew.

She needs food, yes but she can go without food longer than you think. Don't be alarmed if she doesn't eat the first day or even second day. Heck, I wouldn't worry too much on the third day, either. (I'd be irritated, but not worried.) As has been said here on this forum, dogs will not starve themselves. But if you give in to them and their wants, you're going to have a rough go on your hands.

Listen, when a child asks you for candy, do you give it to them every single time? Or do you tell them, "no" because you know it's not good for them? If they don't want to eat their dinner because they hate lima beans, do you tell them, "ok, here's an ice cream cone instead" or do you say, "eat your beans or you'll find them on your plate again tomorrow"? 

Don't give in to her...she's basically telling you what to do and that's the opposite of what is supposed to be happening.


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

i think she's too big for chicken necks....that's even too big for my pug who used to try to swallow them whole.

if you were feeding something along with chicken necks, it's possible the diarrhea came from that.....generally, dogs don't get diarrhea from bones....

when we started our dogs, it was on chicken backs with skin removed, the organs removed and the excess fat removed...

i'd suggest starting over and give her backs for a few weeks until she stabilises and then slowly add in food.

if you're concerned because she is still a puppy, essentially...then put the food down....if she doesn't eat it in 15 -20 minutes, pick it up...and offer it to her again in an hour or so....she'll get the idea...

i only suggest that because she's still a puppy and i'm no expert in puppyhood...


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## isabellak (Oct 26, 2010)

Okay, I'm going to try this again. Please tell me if this makes sense.

I'll start with chicken backs for a few weeks. Her current weight is 85 pounds (as an adult, she'll probably be closer to 100), so 2% of that would be 1.7 pounds. I'll feed her half of that 2x per day. What about fruits, veggies, eggs?

When I first started researching this months ago, I had read that just meat/bones/organ meats is not enough, they need fruits and veggies, too.

Thanks so much everyone for your help.


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## DaneMama (Jun 27, 2008)

Most of us raw feeders here use the PMR (prey model raw) style of feeding which does not include fruits or veggies. Occasionally I will give them as treats but I don't see them as an essential part of a dogs diet, and if they were I think I would have seen some issue popping up in the last few years. If you do want to add any type of plant material, I would only add in a small amount of fruit (berries only) but not until youve been feed real raw foods for at least 2 months. Add them in slowly and only a few times a week. Eggs are a great thing to add in as well, but again don't add them in right away and I'd say an egg or two a week is a good amount. You can give them shell and all. 

For your initial start I would give 1/2 a normal ration (so like a pound) the first two days. Too much too fast can cause digestive upset. I would also start with just chicken backs for the first week and then start adding in meatier cuts of chicken like whole leg quarters. Alternate chicken backs and quarters until you see normal solid stools for a week. Then we will talk about what to do from there.

I would also say that you're most likely going to have your work cut out for you. It sounds to me like this sweet pup of yours already has you doing exactly what she wants...catering to her every whim. Be patient and be just as stubborn as her. Don't give into her not eating. She is ten months old so she is more than capable of going probably a whole week without food, so don't worry about her being a growing puppy. What you concern yourself with now is reversing this "picky eater syndrome" before she gets any older.

Youve gotten some wonderful advice so far and I really do hope you give PMR a fighting chance because in the end your pup will be getting the best she possibly can and YOU will be respected so much more, and vice versa! Be patient and strong!

Refer to this website for more help with getting started:

Dedicated to proper carnivore nutrition - Prey Model Raw Feeding for Dogs & Cats


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## luvMyBRT (Mar 8, 2010)

I don't have anything to add since you have gotten great advice so far. I just want to say stick with it! Don't get discouraged. :smile:

Read the link that Danemama posted. I refer to it all the time, plus I ask tons of questions. If you do decide to start a PMR diet I would just "start over" so to speak. Start from the beginning and take it slow. I would suggest fasting her for a bit and then starting with only chicken backs. 

And, like the others have said stay firm. Don't cater to her every whim. You are in charge and you decide what she eats and when she eats. Put her food down, leave it for 15 minutes, pick up what she doesn't eat, feed it at the next meal time. She needs to learn that your the boss. :smile:

Keep us posted!

ETA: Okay...so I did have a bit to add.....LOL!


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## isabellak (Oct 26, 2010)

Well, I had to run home for lunch, so I stopped for some chicken backs, trimmed the fat and the organs and gave Lily one. At first, she didn't know what to do with it. She ran around whimpering, looking like she wanted to hide it somewhere. Then she chowed down and finished it. 

I'll give her one more tonight and repeat tomorrow to see how she digests.

I'll also check out that link. 

Thanks so much everyone, I know the primal is decent food, but it would be great to be able to feed her like this.

And, I also appreciate your comments about how my little puppy is manipulating me. It was starting to get absurd, so I needed that :redface:


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## DaneMama (Jun 27, 2008)

I wouldn't actually give anything else but that one back for today. Give her another tomorrow morning. I know that isn't a lot of food but it's so much better to start out slow! Let us all know how she does!


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## SerenityFL (Sep 28, 2010)

danemama08 said:


> Youve gotten some wonderful advice so far and I really do hope you give PMR a fighting chance because in the end your pup will be getting the best she possibly can and YOU will be respected so much more, and vice versa! Be patient and strong!


Just wanted to add that danemama means you will be respected so much more by your dog. :biggrin:

I firmly believe this to be true. I have 6 month old puppies and their behavior has changed drastically. I'm not a dog trainer, I've only had one other dog in my life and while I may get advice from a trainer, I'm doing this on my own and using common sense. In other words, I am not any sort of expert but they are making me look like I am simply because their entire attitude and behavior has changed after they started PMR. 

Sure, we have some training still to do but it's a whole lot easier these days. (Some of it...I don't think anything will ever keep a dog from screaming like a banshee their first couple of nights in a crate.)


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## DaneMama (Jun 27, 2008)

Yep, that's exactly what I meant. Your dog will respect you and you will respect your dog a whole lot more when you're in control and the "boss"


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## isabellak (Oct 26, 2010)

Thanks, everyone. 
I will check in tomorrow.


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## isabellak (Oct 26, 2010)

*Checking in*

Lily did great on her first day. In the morning she ate 1-3/4 beef primal patties (14 oz). At 1 p.m. I gave her the first trimmed chicken back. She pooped around 7 p.m. and it was formed, but soft (50). 

She was obviously hungry and waiting at the refrigerator, so I gave her another 1/2 chicken back. This morning she got another trimmed chicken back, her poop was very small and firm (100).

So far, so good!

Do I continue with just the backs for a few days? Also, should I continue trimming the fat? Also, how long can I safely keep the chicken in the fridge for her? For humans, it would be only 2 days; I would freeze after that.

Thanks so much everyone. I am thrilled to be able to finally feed her this way. I don't know why I didn't find this forum 8 months ago when I was first researching feeding raw, but I'm SO happy I found it now.


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

my first start was disastrous because i made two mistakes....i overfed and fed too much fat.

when i started over, i fed chicken backs stripped of skin, excess fat and organs for two weeks. i slightly underfed them and now they eat anything.


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## isabellak (Oct 26, 2010)

Thanks Magicre,
That's good advice. What do you think a good amount of food for her is for the next two weeks, assuming I feed her 2x per day? She's 10 months old and 85 pounds.


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## RawFedDogs (Jun 16, 2008)

isabellak said:


> She was obviously hungry and waiting at the refrigerator, so I gave her another 1/2 chicken back. This morning she got another trimmed chicken back, her poop was very small and firm (100).


Be careful about judging how much to feed by whether the dog acts hungry or not. They love this food and will alway beg for more regardless of how hungry they are.



> Do I continue with just the backs for a few days?


Yes, for a week. After that alternate with chicken quarters.



> Also, should I continue trimming the fat?


I would for a couple of weeks. You might start gradually leaving more skin/fat on them.



> Also, how long can I safely keep the chicken in the fridge for her?


For the next couple of months, judge it like human food. After their body has had time to adjust, you can leave it in the fridge for as long as you can stand the smell and you can still feed it even at that point. :smile:


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## DaneMama (Jun 27, 2008)

I would feed her the exact same thing a few days in a row until you see consistent stools in the 100 category on the poo scale. After those few first days, start gradually cutting less and less fat off the backs until she can eat an unaltered one without upset. After this watch her body condition. Does she look skinnier or fatter? Adjust level of food accordingly but so ever so gradually. Too much food too fast can take her back a few steps. 

Chicken for dogs can be kept in the fridge for like a week. It may start to smell a bit funky but that isnt an issue with dogs. They can handle the bacterial load that we can't.


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

isabellak said:


> Thanks Magicre,
> That's good advice. What do you think a good amount of food for her is for the next two weeks, assuming I feed her 2x per day? She's 10 months old and 85 pounds.


i think danemama answered you on the amount. since i've never had a puppy.....especially that large...i'm not sure i'd be accurate or even close.

but given the problems, i'd probably feed one back per meal per day for a few days.

i calculate my dogs like this:

18 lbs x 16 oz x .02% = 5.76...which i round up to 6 oz per day. that was in the beginning. i fed less than i do now.....

i now feed bubba 3% of his body weight and he still weighs 18 lbs...i also don't get too accurate..even though i weigh because i suck at eyeballing. lots of people eyeball. i'm just not one who can....

if i see him losing his girly waist, then i cut back for a few days....

in the beginning, though, he got 6 oz per day, divvied into two meals and that was that. i fed him heavy on bone because i had screwed up their systems by feeding them that which they were not used to eating.

i didn't realise they needed time to get used to raw....their teeth, jaws, mouths, gums, necks, muscles....strength comes with time....bone they couldn't eat in february, they now eat with gusto.....

i think you said your baby is going to weigh in at about 100 lbs...? 2% is 32 oz.....that's two pounds a day. for you, i'd start with a pound....per day.

as she stabilises, you can start adding skin and fat back in, not organs, though. that's the last thing she'll get added in....and then add some muscle meat.....and read danemama's and jdatwood's site. preymodelraw.com


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## isabellak (Oct 26, 2010)

Thanks everyone. That sounds like a plan. I'll do 1 to 1-1/2 backs a.m. and p.m., gradually adding more fat for 2 weeks.

I'll keep reading here and check in with progress after about a week, unless something changes.

I don't know what I'm going to do with all the money I'm saving by not buying the Primal food - like $90 to $100 per week!!


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## isabellak (Oct 26, 2010)

*Having a rough time. Need help, please.*

My 85 pound Great Pyr puppy has been eating raw since 10/26. She did fine for the first 2 weeks and then a week ago started having uncontrolled diarrhea at night, leaving me several nasty accidents every morning. 

It's possible she got into something outside. I know she grabbed 1/2# of cheese from the table and ate that, so it's possible it was that. I guess it's also possible that it was the food. 

I tried for several days to control the diarrhea with more bone (right now she's still just doing chicken), and wasn't successful. I took her to the vet this weekend and she put her on Flaygl. Two doses firmed up her stool. 

At this point, I don't know whether to start all over or go back to the Primal, which she turns her nose up at.

If I start over, I was thinking about doing 2 chicken backs in the morning (about 6 ounces each) and 1 chicken quarter (about 12 ounces) for 2 weeks. Does this sound right?


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## DaneMama (Jun 27, 2008)

I would fast her one full day before starting over. Then I'd do just one chicken back in the morning and another in the evening for the first day. If all goes well, increase it to 2 back in the morning and two in the evening. If all goes well, change it to 2 backs in the morning and then a quarter for dinner.

I bet it was the cheese. If this happens again, for whatever reason, fast her for 24 hours and then start on the regimen I stated above.


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## isabellak (Oct 26, 2010)

*Thanks*

Thanks danemama, I'll give that a try.


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

besides the cheese you think she got into, what were you feeding her...what was her diet?

was it still chicken backs? or had you added in chicken? and how much were you feeding her? how many ounces approximately?


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## isabellak (Oct 26, 2010)

I wasn't doing backs anymore. I had started introducing a meat-only meal (chicken) or chicken breast with bone in the morning with a chicken quarter in the evening. About 27 ounces of food per day, but less bone than I was doing at the beginning.


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## Ania's Mommy (Feb 8, 2009)

That might be a bit soon to do bone exclusive meals.

I would add more bone at this time. 

I would strongly suspect that it was the cheese. 1/2lb is a lot of cheese for anyone. And dogs are lactose intolerant. 

Hope things clear up quickly!


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

i agree with ania's mommy...it takes about a year for a dog to adapt....fully transition and you're in stage one.....

i'd go back to backs in the morning and quarters at night....

for at least a week, until she stabilises...and then you can intro a new protein....not cheese LOL

maybe turkey necks....heavy on the bone until stabilisation....and fasting is not a bad thing, if only 12 hours...to slow down the motility of the intestinal tract....cause sometimes the runs can be self perpetuating once the intestines get themselves going...


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## isabellak (Oct 26, 2010)

I wasn't aware of the lactose issue...not to mention the plastic that was wrapped around the cheese, which I'm sure didn't get in her way 

I'm going to stop the Flagyl and start doing backs and quarters again for a while. Hopefully, that will do the trick.

Thanks again, everyone!


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

is there anything else you're feeding her on a daily basis?

when you started the chicken backs on the 26th of october....were her stools firm?

and then you started feeding too little bone? is that what happened?


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## isabellak (Oct 26, 2010)

I give her a little yogurt frozen in a hollow bone, along with a few pieces of dehydrated raw dog food or a few slices of hot dog when I put her in her crate in the morning. She usually gets one or two chicken jerkys as a treat. This is all stuff she's eaten since she was 8 weeks old.

When I started her on raw, her stool was hard, small and firm - I was concerned she was getting constipated. When I changed the proportion of bone-to-meat, her stool got softer, but the cannon butt started right after the cheese incident.

Lily has always had a sensitive stomach, so this makes sense to me. I've seen this before with her:



> sometimes the runs can be self perpetuating once the intestines get themselves going


This morning she had (this was before I got advice here):
1-6 oz chicken back
4 oz (approx) primal beef (force fed)
9 oz chicken thigh meat
frozen yogurt in bone
small handful dehydrated raw food

This evening she got:
1-6 oz chicken back


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## SamWu1 (Oct 15, 2010)

isabellak said:


> This morning she had (this was before I got advice here):
> 1-6 oz chicken back
> 4 oz (approx) primal beef (force fed)
> 9 oz chicken thigh meat
> ...


Man, she's really making you run around like a chicken with its head cut off. Unless it's a medical condition or some sort of trauma, I absolutely will *not* force feed or tolerate a picky eater.

Now don't necessarily think of her as being a picky eater either, sometimes these are conditioned habits from humans "offering" food as opposed to them "earning" their meals.

My proven program consists of a 24 hours fast, next day, vigorous physical and mental exercise (biking, hiking, running, fetching, swimming, etc.), then put Lily's food on one of your plates and sit down at the dinner table as if you were going to eat it.

If she approaches you, offer a tid bit to whet her appetite. If she accepts it, offer a bit more and eventually just put it on the floor and walk away. Allow 15-20 minutes max, if there's leftovers, put it away for another day.

Create an appetite i.e. exercise and you'll have better success at curing a finicky eating habit. Give food as a reward instead of "begging" her to eat. Sometimes it's a psychological thing.

Keep things simple. I generally don't mind mixing proteins but feed just chicken back with a little bit of extra muscle meat (thigh or breast) for a few days and see how it goes. Skip all the treats, yogurt, dehydrated food, etc. and condition her to not be picky.

I had a woman with a Collie mix that was rail thin. She used to come to my store every 3-4 days trying every single brand and flavor of kibble, canned, dehydrated, raw we carried. The dog would pick through a tid bit of this and that and not much else. 

I put him through my little boot camp routine and lo and behold, he eagerly ate his meal, a cut up bone-in chicken breast and begged for more.


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## isabellak (Oct 26, 2010)

Thanks, Sam Wu.

This sounds a little like me, although I never did kibble :frown:


> I had a woman with a Collie mix that was rail thin. She used to come to my store every 3-4 days trying every single brand and flavor of kibble, canned, dehydrated, raw we carried. The dog would pick through a tid bit of this and that and not much else.


I will say that I never have an issue of Lily not eating when it comes to 'raw' vs pre-made raw. Your comments and suggestions are well-taken.


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

i honestly think.....given the troubles you're having.....that starting from scratch is your best bet...

backs, frames and quarters for two weeks...nothing else....get her stool firm....

like sam wu says...keep it simple and don't let her manipulate you so much. there are other ways to show love


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## isabellak (Oct 26, 2010)

Thanks Magicre, that's my plan.

Today
2-6oz backs in the morning
2-6oz backs in the evening
I pulled off a little of the excess fat.
This morning her stool was formed and fairly firm, except for the last bit of it.

If she does okay today, tomorrow will be:
2-6oz backs in the morning
1 chicken quarter (about 1 pound)


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

isabellak said:


> Thanks Magicre, that's my plan.
> 
> Today
> 2-6oz backs in the morning
> ...


in all truth, i would do chicken backs for the first week....

as she solidifies, next week add in a quarter for one of her meals...

honest...this is not a race to the finish line and it's balance over time....she's not going to suffer ill effects on a limited diet for a few months....

i was one of the ones who did what you're doing....and ended up having to start over....and once i listened, really listened.....i finally realised that i was overfeeding, feeding things they didn't need, and progressing too fast....

i'm now into my ninth month and i have to tell you...i'm glad i listened and asked a zillion questions...because my dogs are great....

and they didn't get organs, i think, for the first three months....one of my dogs is almost eleven and acts like she is five, so i don't think i hurt her any....

if i recall...they were on chicken backs, stripped of fat, skin and organs for like three weeks LOL...because i had messed up their digestive tract so much....i was my own worst enemy.....

i also realised their teeth and gums, jaw and neck and digestive system had to get used to eating this new way of eating....so in looking back....i'm glad i finally slowed down, took a deep breath....and now they are perfect.

i have faith. you'll be fine. honest. and so will your baby...


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## isabellak (Oct 26, 2010)

Sigh of relief...
Magicre, thank you, thank you. That's exactly what I needed to hear.



> honest...this is not a race to the finish line and it's balance over time....she's not going to suffer ill effects on a limited diet for a few months....


I have to admit that I got some poor advice (although I know the intention was good) from another raw feeding forum. They led me to believe that the amount of bone I was feeding was way wrong (I was feeding backs) and to switch to more meat 80/10/10, even though I had only just started her on this feeding method. 

Of course I know that eventually 80/10/10 would be wonderful, but I moved WAY too quickly.


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## schtuffy (May 17, 2010)

isabellak said:


> It's possible she got into something outside. I know she grabbed 1/2# of cheese from the table and ate that, so it's possible it was that. I guess it's also possible that it was the food.


You know I bet it's the cheese too. I used to give Louis a little yogurt with his meals here and there. Then one day he stuck his face into the container and swallowed a whole bunch. Next day I came home from work to his vomit projectiled everywhere outside the crate followed by the worse diarrhea he ever had. Never feeding yogurt or kibble after that one :biggrin:

Good luck with the pup, she's beautiful by the way!


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## isabellak (Oct 26, 2010)

I think you are right schtuffy, it probably was the cheese. Yikes, for you and poor Louis. I can sympathize with the cleanup effort :smile:


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## hcdoxies (Sep 22, 2010)

She's been eating raw (in some form or another) since 2 months old... Is it possible that she is learning how to self-regulate? My Lizzy, who is the only one who has been on PMR since 5 weeks old (she was born here) self-regulates. Sometimes, she'll eat all of her meal and look at me like, "That's it?" Sometimes, she pushes it away, because she ate enough the day before, then the next day, she'll eat it up again.


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## isabellak (Oct 26, 2010)

I did think about that, hcdoxies. She loved the Primal at first, and then refused to eat it. I never really tested the self-regulating theory, because I was a frantic doggie mom and I became concerned about her being a growing puppy and not getting enough food, so I started exploring other options. 

I've gotten some great advice here about how I should have handled that situation and that is how I'll handle things if this happens again.

But not knowing that then, when she stopped eating the Primal, I started feeding her PMR. Now, she stands at the refrigerator waiting for meals.


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