# 36 pound Cavalier King Charles Spaniel - diet kibble suggestion?



## ahbuilder

Hey forum,
My parents always had larger dogs and figured they are similar to smaller breeds. After being away from home for 5 years I return to see the small/mid size breed dog had become an obese one. He is at 36 pounds. For more than 2 months now I have cut his food portion drastically to even less than energy requirements - giving him only 1 1/4 cup of kibble. I give him (for the last 2 months) Chicken Soup for the dog lovers soul. I had him on the lighter formula but his stomach acted up with that. Switched to the normal one with just a low amount. Ironically he has gained weight rather than lost it even with going for walks. At this point his metabolism im sure is screwed up. Had him get tested for a thyroid issue and came negative with the vet saying urgent diet concern. He recommended as always - hills prescription diet r/d. I know how the Hills diet works with vets and the ingredient list is terrible. But at this point I am at a loss. Chicken Soup was even lower in calories than other ligher foods. The protein wasnt too high like others as well since he is in no way an active dog. 

Does anyone on here have advice on what kibble I should give him or canned food? I am asking for kibble or canned because i am away from the house and its the parents who take care of him. Need something they dont need to worry about much. I mean at this point im at the 'oh might as well get hills diet.' 

Again, not an active dog at all, weighs 36 pounds, and has been gaining weight for the last 2-3 months with 1 1/4 of chicken soup regular formula - which already has low protein and low calories and not that much fat and good fiber amount and is far less than what he should be getting. At a loss. He is 5 years old and a few months. With this breeds heart issues and ease of getting diabetes, i could really use the help.

Thanks


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## ubershann

California Natural makes a weight management kibble, and Canidae does too. Are either of those available anywhere near you? They both have store locaters on their web sites


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## ahbuilder

Thanks. yea both are available. Looking at the nutritional info they seem similiar to chicken soup so thats good. Not too high in protein since he isnt active at his weight. Fat is low. However shouldnt fiber be higher for overweight dogs? Too much fiber I think affected him - as was the case with the Light forumla for chicken soup. Or could be some ingredient in there. But the California Natural are pretty fiber low as compared to Canidae. Also none of them have L-Carnitine that I see - might be missing it. Is this important for weight loss and energy conversion or is this a marketing ploy by chicken soup? 

again thank you


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## Unosmom

Actually higher protein foods work best for overweight dogs because they keep them fuller longer and help build and retain lean muscle mass. 

How much are you feeding now?
What kind/ how much exercise does he get?
Any treats/people food besides regular food?

I had really good results with Wellness core reduced fat, its a bit pricy, but it works and once the dog has slimmed down, you can go to regular maintanance food. 

If youre looking for something less expensive, try taste of the wild, it may take longer for the dog to lose weight, but with regular exercise routine and reduced portions, it'll work the same.


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## ahbuilder

Oh so even if a dog isnt active, heavy protein is still good for them? I know it keeps them fuller but was told that if a dog is obese extra protein may prevent weightless. But this is from the vet who keeps promoting r/d kibble 

prior to 2 months ago my parents would feed him 2 cans of cesars food on top of whatever amount of kibble they felt worked. Or they would give him 2 slices of chicken/turkey (fosterfarm cooked slices) and kibble with that. And that is just for the 4pm meal. At 9am they would give him two dog treats - a natural balance potato one and another for teeth cleaning. Basically they failed the dog and its sad.

For the last 2 + months I have had him on a small bag of chicken soup light and that made his stool runny and frequently occurring. I switched to the normal adult formula of it and give him that now. Even with the light the portion i give is 1 and 1/4 cup spread morning and afternoon. And yet he was 31 pounds or so before 4 months ago and now he is at 36 with no thyroid issue. So im at a loss. I mean the food amount i give him is far less than even the required energy level that his weight needs - though thats cause he is obese. 

He gets walked 2 to 3 times a day but for no more than 20 minutes each walk. And a walk with him isnt a run at any means. Its a struggle to get him moving now and he tires often and needs to sit. 

For treats I cut up the what was once used as breakfast - the natural balance treat - very small - im talking nickel size at this point. Though I am sure my parents still think thats 'cruel' and probably give him quarter size or larger of the treat behind my back. 

So basically i need something that can help reduce his weight as quickly as possible but with good ingredients cause he has a history of a bloody stool or diarrhea - probably due to unhealthy eating lifestyle. Seems extra fiber might be another cause but not sure again. 

Thanks


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## sassymaxmom

I have a couple of wonders here.

I wonder if you are feeding a starvation amount so his body is conserving calories. Perhaps more food would be better.

I wonder if this is a people problem. The tiny amount of food seems cruel to your parents so they are sabotaging your efforts. Perhaps feeding a good quality canned food in small cans would seem like enough food to them. Canidae comes in small cans as does Innova, Nature's Variety and Wellness. You would need to transition it slowly and overfeeding could trigger tummy upset. 

You could leave super low calorie treats for them to offer him like dehydrated lung. A whole ounce of raw lung is 24 calories, that would be quite a chunk of the dehydrated. The dehydrated chunk of beef lung sitting on my cutting board right would about 3 ounces raw [if I add the water back in]. Guess it is about 75 calories for that 1/2"x2"x5" chunk. Guessing your parents might think that a fifth of that would be a nice sized treat. Lots of dogs like to chew on carrots and they are pretty much just fun for dogs. NB roll is still 150 calories per inch of the 1 pound roll, quite a bit. Cut up his daily allotment and put the rest deep in the refrigerator. Cut very thin so the treat can appear larger.

I used to feed food puzzles whenever possible for my gulping dog and it makes sense for overweight dogs to work for their food too. It means they are on their feet and doing something fun instead of licking out a bowl. If you keep him on kibble I suggest using some sort of toy to feed him. I personally hate my buster cubes as they are noisy and hard to open and clean but have a number of other rubber hollow balls I can put treats in these days. I would buy an easy one just so your parents think he is eating fast enough so he won't starve and get a harder one if he takes to the idea. I also used to roll kibble down the hall, maybe just do that for part of the meal. Does have to be far or fast, just roll a bit so he gets to chase and kill his dinner, kibble by kibble.

Fats and protein sate a dog's appetite but we think a fat heavy meal doesn't look like enough food and we worry that it is bad for the dog. Carbs aren't as good for dogs but they add bulk and dogs love them. Also a bored dog is going to want to eat, make meal time last longer and engage him and he won't be looking for treats quite as much.

Or you could even feed him completely as treats. No food from a bowl, your parents could just treat away from a bowl with an allotted amount of kibble and bits of low cal treats.


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## ahbuilder

I got to the 1 1/4 cup portion through the vet who says though it is below the recommended energy level, he is so obese that he needs to heavily cut down. Seems I might be getting a bunch of odd info from the vet - hills r/d, not much protein, super low food amounts. 

Before food toys and rolling the food, since I am away most of the day, I just need a fat burning kibble plan so the parents can just let the dog be till I can give him longer walks at night or what not. Id prefer for the time being just kibble since with raw food or cooked id feel they would over feed again haha. Going with numbers might work best on them since they keep using a card of how they each had 6-7 dogs growing up (large breeds) and they know what to feed. Though seems they might be getting the point now. 

I have been comparing the suggestions so far with Cali Natural Low Fat, Canidae Platinum, and Welless Core Reduced Fat. So just to confirm that my vet is misinformed or promoting heavily the hills r/d, its ok for obese dogs to have kibble that is protein heavy even if not active? Is there something like L-Carnitine (chicken soup) that is used to help reduce fat I should be looking for and comparing - or is that marketing? Is low fiber like in California Natural Low Fat the way to go for lowering fat or should I use more - or is there a reason they didnt use much fiber in it? 

Thanks again. Looking to switch and put him on a new kibble plan (though other food options are best but for now kibble will need to do) right away since again, seems he is gaining weight even with not eating much at this point. And at 36 pounds for a 5+ year old cavalier, thats terrible considering they need to be between 15-20.


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## Penny & Maggie's Mom

Many I know have used a 10 calories/ per pound you want them to weigh. For my goldens, that would be 700 calories/ day. They've had good success and can supplement with some green beans to help add bulk and make them feel full. Personally, I would cut the food even more.


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## ubershann

I think the suggestion of a food puzzle is great. I've used this one before and I really like it because it's very simple Bob-a-Lot Dog Treat Puzzle Dog Products - GregRobert

Some puzzles can be pretty tough, and not all dogs are willing to work for their food or be able to figure them out, but this one is like a weeble-wobble with a hole the food comes out of. Very easy and fun. 

From what I know you don't need to go low protein to lose weight. But I'm far from an expert on the subject of dog diets. I will say this, do your own research and don't just rely or believe what the vet says about food. Rarely does a week go by that I don't have at least one customer saying "My vet told me..." followed by some completely ridiculous statement. One of my favorites is the vet who said it's unhealthy for a dog to eat anything but kibble. I told the customer last I checked there were no kibble trees in nature and that dogs were around long before the invention of kibble. 

I don't know how easy it is to find an animal nutritionist, but if there's one in your area I'd suggest spending the money on visits there instead of the vet. Or maybe look for a holistic vet? I've found they're at least a bit better about animal nutrition


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## ahbuilder

Ok so so far i am going with the Bob-o-lot toy feeder - seems easy enough so I don't need to monitor much.

Now it just comes down to the food questions regarding the kibble to put in. Ill look into a nutritionist for sure but for now I just want to at least see if switching the Chicken Soup kibble with something else for a month or less might help lower his weight with all else being constant + the dog toy. Him gaining weight with less food and a decent kibble is worrisome. Each of those three are different with fiber levels, protein levels and fat levels. I think for a true obese dog like the one I have wouldn't I need a moderate or high fiber intake and very low fat? And with the low fat, perhaps the higher protein might be ok than - though again maybe protein does NOT have anything to do with gaining weight as my vet might suggest and therefore more protein is always better.


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## Unosmom

No, higher protein will not make him gain weight, if he's getting sufficient exercise. Does he like to swim? Swimming is great low impact exercise for heavy dogs since its easy on the joints. 

I dont reccomend or particularly like "diet" foods because they are very grain heavy, which is actually counter productive to a dog trying to lose weight because it elevates insulin levels and basically sends the body into the conservation mode, slowing down the metabolism to save energy for basic needs. 

I posted this a while back, but Uno put on 7 lbs while my parents were watching him, he would finish the cats food and get people food leftovers, I basically yelled at them and told them that they are killing my dog ( ok, I may have been a bit overdramatic, but it worked). 
Here are the pics from before and after



















I put him on wellness core reduced fat and he lost the weight in about a month. I also increased his exercise(biking and swimming).


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## ahbuilder

Wow drastic difference. Unfortunately no he isnt a water fan. More of a dont bother me im fat and sleeping fan - or is at this point sadly. 

Which is my concern with the protein confusion from the vet and otherwise. Without activity - he gets id say 30 minutes to 40 minutes walking time - slow pace- each day - will a 30+ protein still be fine? 

Of those three dog food types I noted from the suggestions, seems the only light formula that uses grain is California Natural - unless im missing it. The others use rice heavily for the added protein and fat. Also not the best but if he is gaining weight on chicken soup adult which isnt calorie heavy and only 1 1/4 cup a day, i think at this point he might have to go with a diet kibble. Seems less food of normal formulas arent working with his slow metabolism by now.


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## Unosmom

I would increase the exercise to at least an hour each day, but watch his pace, make sure not to overexert him. 

What is his ideal weight? I'm not familiar with small breeds, but I looked up online and it looks like for males it should be between 13-18 lbs, so say his ideal weight is 18 lbs, he should be eating a cup a day of Chicken soup or 3/4 cups (total) of Core RF a day. So you can still cut back, but grain free would be your best bet. 

For snacks you can give him green beans.


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## ahbuilder

Great thanks everyone for the help. Got to hit the thanks button on quite a few members haha. 

With the WC light - the fat content, though lighter than normal formula, is still pretty high. And the fiber is really high as well. I think the high fiber might lead to his bloody stool problem again - think he has a mild form of colitis. Though might be with only poor quality fiber kibble. Is WC light targeted for weight loss using other ingredients as opposed to the others? Or is it for general weight loss but not as direct as those with a fat content of 8% or so - which i assume is for more obese - though could be wrong and might in fact not be needed to be cut as much. 

Thats why i am at a loss. Some weight loss are very low fiber - though i thought fiber helps weight loss - just need to be cautious with colitis issues. And fat percentage should be less than 10 percent with caloric intake of 350 or less. Is WC light used more often for weight loss than Canidae Platinum - which seems to be in the middle of fiber, fat and caloric intake - though protein is mid/low with it. 

Again, sorry if some of the questions repeat, just trying to get a broader understanding of dog nutrition so I can approach the vet next time with a better understanding.


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## Unosmom

Well its up to you, WC worked really well for me (and few other people I know), I dont know much about Canidae Platinum other then its very grainy. 

And I wouldnt bother asking the vet for advice, unless they are certified in nutrition (even so, I've seen many push inferior products), their sole focus is on masking the problem, not treating it and of course spending a fortune on prescription diets which are terrible.


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## Penny & Maggie's Mom

How many calories/ day is he getting??? Be sure to factor in treats too.


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## Unosmom

Something else I wanted to mention, if your dog has colitis, he would greatly benefit from probiotic/enzyme supplement, I really like Prozyme and I also add plain yogurt to the food for healthy bacteria. 
You also want to keep in mind that grains are very difficult for dogs to digest, it seems that most dogs do better on potato/tapioca/pea with stomach issues.


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## ahbuilder

Good catch. I fell for the marketing of Canidae Platinum thinking it was entirely grain free diet kibble. Its wheat free and corn free but has heavy grain. Only toss i have is with the fiber - which i guess that i can at least ask the vet on since its a mild colitis issue and not a nutrition issue. 

Seems upon further review sites that Wellness Core RF is a great choice - though if cost is sky high, I can compare it with Canidae (or a similiar product ?) for best outcome with price in mind. So I can just double check with the vet on the fiber level and go with an option - unless there is something similar to ingredients and no grain that has less fiber but not too much less.

He has a mild form of colitis - which I think is why he had a bloody stoll with an 8 percent fiber intake with chicken soup light - though could be bad fiber that doesnt digest well. 

Thanks for the probiotic/enzyme info. Will look at those too. When he gets a bloody stool my parents would just give him pills - name escapes me. So I guess grain free would be a safe bet just to be cautious.


As far as his cal intake now, one cup of chicken soup adult is 336 and he is given 1 1/4 - yet still gaining weight. Which is why I am baffled and trying to find something fast.


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## Unosmom

Well, make sure your parents arent sneaking in food without your knowledge, trust me, I know how it is, they just cant resist those begging eyes. 

Yes, the Core is expensive, in fact I wont be buying it after I'm done with this bag, they really raised their prices from last year. Up on the upside, you'll be feeding less of it then Chicken soup. 
You can try Canidae grain free or Taste of the Wild both are pretty affordable (thought Totw is the least expensive).


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## ahbuilder

My only concern with the grain free ones that are not low in fat is that he might be gaining weight as is the case now with the chicken soup small amount. I mean I could lower the mount even more and feed those but if there were some diet that was whole grain and reasonably priced or less than WC that would be perfect. Though the world and in this case dog kibble is not fair haha.


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## ubershann

Unosmom said:


> I put him on wellness core reduced fat and he lost the weight in about a month. I also increased his exercise(biking and swimming).


I'm really glad you mentioned this. I have several customers who buy reduced calorie dog foods and a couple of them have mentioned they are having a hard time getting weight off. I will definitely start recommending they try wellness core reduced fat!


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## Unosmom

I was a bit skeptical about it at first, but it really does work! thought the cost bites


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## spookychick13

Holy cow, that is HUGE.
My cav was overweight at 16lbs and he ended up having a thyroid issue.

Did your parents have his thyroid checked?


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## ahbuilder

Yea he is massive. Pretty concerned. And posted here because yea his thyroid test came out ok which is a concern since he is gaining weight non stop even with a food cutback. I know they messed him up for good. Wonder how much more he can live this way before his heart stops - since cavs have heart conditions. Pretty sad since the dog is a great dog. Even more sad is the fact he used to be super energetic at 1 years old and now he just naps and has no energy. 

Looks like the best bet is to go with WC light i guess (though expensive) and see if a one bag will help for the time being right away. I mean the vet recommendation of unhealthy food is very expensive because of Hill' connection to vet funding. This is costly i guess cause of brand reputation - which is a good thing. 

Again thanks and hopefully if all goes well, i will let you all know what hes like in a couple months. Not sure how fast it will take for him to lose drastic weight to get to around 25 at least, but hopefully soon enough before his health plummets.


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## Unosmom

I think you're making the right choice, remember to take it very slowly, you certainly dont want to overexert him with too much exercise, its better to lose weight in small ammounts over a longer period of time, for a dog of that shape, I wouldnt be suprised if it takes a year or longer to get back to decent shape. 

Some other tips:

1) Lay the facts out to your family, they are killing their dog with food, plain and simple its no different then starving dog to death, both suffer in the hands of the owners. 
2)Keep a weight journal and weigh him once a week to track progress, it may only be 1/2 lb at a time or less, but as long as he's losing weight, it means he's well capable of it. 
3) Once he gets lighter and fitter, increase the ammount and intensity of exercise. Find something he really likes, swimming, playing with other dogs, hiking, etc. 
4) if he begs, dont give in, keep some canned low sodium green beans stocked up, most dogs seem to like it (rinse it in water first to remove excess salt).
5) Remember that guidelines on the bag, are just guidelines, in most cases they are excessive and meant for "maintenance" not weight loss. I would start off with 1 cup a day, split in 2, if he doesent lose weight, reduce it slightly until you start seeing progress. 

And most of all, dogs give up, you have to be consistent and patient, this may well be a long process. Best of luck.


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## spookychick13

ahbuilder said:


> Yea he is massive. Pretty concerned. And posted here because yea his thyroid test came out ok which is a concern since he is gaining weight non stop even with a food cutback. I know they messed him up for good. Wonder how much more he can live this way before his heart stops - since cavs have heart conditions. Pretty sad since the dog is a great dog. Even more sad is the fact he used to be super energetic at 1 years old and now he just naps and has no energy.
> 
> Looks like the best bet is to go with WC light i guess (though expensive) and see if a one bag will help for the time being right away. I mean the vet recommendation of unhealthy food is very expensive because of Hill' connection to vet funding. This is costly i guess cause of brand reputation - which is a good thing.
> 
> Again thanks and hopefully if all goes well, i will let you all know what hes like in a couple months. Not sure how fast it will take for him to lose drastic weight to get to around 25 at least, but hopefully soon enough before his health plummets.


My other concern is cushing's disease...perhaps ask your parents if they had him tested for this too? 

Poor little guy, good thing he has you to try to get them to help.


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## Devils of York

Unosmom said:


> No, higher protein will not make him gain weight, if he's getting sufficient exercise. Does he like to swim? Swimming is great low impact exercise for heavy dogs since its easy on the joints.
> 
> I dont reccomend or particularly like "diet" foods because they are very grain heavy, which is actually counter productive to a dog trying to lose weight because it elevates insulin levels and basically sends the body into the conservation mode, slowing down the metabolism to save energy for basic needs.
> 
> I posted this a while back, but Uno put on 7 lbs while my parents were watching him, he would finish the cats food and get people food leftovers, I basically yelled at them and told them that they are killing my dog ( ok, I may have been a bit overdramatic, but it worked).
> Here are the pics from before and after
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> I put him on wellness core reduced fat and he lost the weight in about a month. I also increased his exercise(biking and swimming).


Your before and after pictures are amazing -- dramatic difference! Great job getting Uno back into tip top shape.


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## Unosmom

yeah, I was surprised too what 7 lb difference can make in a 60 lb dog. My parents still insist that he's too skinny because you can see the outline of his ribcage when he runs(which is totally normal, especially for the breed and him being short haired).


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## flippedstars

I sent you a PM with some details about how we got our dog to lose HALF of her body weight...yep, half.


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## ahbuilder

Ill look into cushings with the vet - see if he was checked for that. And funny a comment was made about a leg. He was stepped on as a puppy and his leg was fine til recently when his weight i assume exerted so much pressure on it that he is limping now. And vet (same one) had it checked and no issue according to him. So i take it its weight related as well.


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## ahbuilder

Just wanted to say thank you again. after some time has past my dog is now at 24pounds. a whopping 12 pound loss. he is nearing 7 years so the metabolism might make it harder to lose more, but the options all worked out.

Highly recommend the wellness core diet if a dog is obese. made the difference.


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## tanalive

I had been given a 7 year old male king Charles cavalier 2 weeks ago and he is most definately overweight. I've read thru all the posts re the 36 lb cavalier and great to see the dog has lost 12 lbs so far. Anyway, I have weighed my dog , hes now 33 lbs. The previous owner told me they gave him about a cup of purina dog food (he came with a huge bag of it) at morning and at night. I asked the local little pet store what I could switch the dog to to lose weight and they suggested wellness grain free so I've been giving him 1/2 a cup in the am and in the pm another 1/2 with several tablespoons of chopped up carrots and green beans mixed in. He seems to be starting to lose a bit but does inhale his food in a matter of seconds. So, I've started giving him his dinner on a large cookie sheet so he has to at least move his head around to get it. My question is this - should I only be giving him one meal a day? And any suggestions for other additives to the dry food that won't pile on the pounds? Thanks for any suggestions!


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## Candyd

Don't change the rhythm of his meals, two meals is best. Dogs gain more weight with only one big meal rather than 2 small meals. Green beans and carrots are a good idea for helping him losing weight too.
I agree with you, your dog eats too fast. There are special toys for obese dogs, balls with small holes which dispense kibble, and your dog would have to run after the ball to get his kibble one after one. It would make him more exercise and prevent him from eating too fast.
If it doesn't work, I suggest to reduce the quantity of kibble. Maybe you give him too much. Ask your vet for adjusting the quantity of kibble.


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## Georgiapeach

Also, make sure you're feeding the amount for the weight the dog SHOULD weigh, not what he currently weighs. I took in my MIL's cockapoo at 28 pounds - double her ideal weight (looked like a swollen tick - UGH!), and got her to lose 1/2 her body weight in about 7 months feeding her Wellness Core Reduced Fat, along with a few baby carrots and a couple of TBSP. of green beans to add filling fiber to her evening meals. At first, she refused to eat these veggies, but hunger won her over within a few days! Yes, feed two smaller meals a day, rather than one meal. It keeps the metabolism going - just like with humans (better to eat several small meals a day).

I have a fast eater (my minipoo, believe it or not), so I feed him in his food bowl turned upside down. He has the type of bowl that has a "moat" around the edge when turned upside down. You can also feed the dog on a large cookie sheet, with the kibble spread out all over it. If you wet the food first in his bowl (I recommend this) its easier when you put it on the cookie sheet, than to try and wet it when it's already on the sheet.


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## tanalive

Thanks to both of you. The bag of Wellness Grain Free gives the diet amount for a dog 20-35 lbs (this fellow should be 18-20 lb range) as 1-1 1/4 cups per day so I'm giving him just the half cup of dry food in the am and the dry food/very mix in the pm. Thanks a lot for the input about fast eaters! I never thought to moisten the food - is that better for him or just a slow down tactic? Presently I'm using the large cookie sheet but that upside down bowl sounds like a good idea - if he eats to quickly, he just throws it up (I learned that in the first 2 days he was here)


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## Candyd

Give your dog the appropriate quantity for his ideal weight, not for his real weight. Weight loss should eventually happen.
I never had a fast eater, so I didn't know about wet kibble for making dogs eat slower, but giving wet kibble is always good as almost all dogs who are fed with dry kibble don't drink enough and are permanently dehydrated.


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## InkedMarie

To Tanalive: you said Wellness grainfree: are you using the Core reduced fat? If yes, that worked well for a dog we adopted. Good luck!


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## Liz

Feeding in a muffin tin slows them down also - just be sure he can get to the bottom of each muffin cup. 

Liz


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## tanalive

Hello InkedMarie, the product is made by Core and says Wellness Grain Free on the bag . There's also the Reduced Fat Formula label on it so it must be the same stuff  thanks so much for your input! I've only had the dog 2 weeks but am hoping this food and long walks will reduce his girth eventually. Thanks again!


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## InkedMarie

tanalive said:


> Hello InkedMarie, the product is made by Core and says Wellness Grain Free on the bag . There's also the Reduced Fat Formula label on it so it must be the same stuff  thanks so much for your input! I've only had the dog 2 weeks but am hoping this food and long walks will reduce his girth eventually. Thanks again!


Yep, that's the one! My gal should have weighed about 25 lbs but weighed 43.7 when we got her.


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## Georgiapeach

tanalive said:


> Thanks to both of you. The bag of Wellness Grain Free gives the diet amount for a dog 20-35 lbs (this fellow should be 18-20 lb range) as 1-1 1/4 cups per day so I'm giving him just the half cup of dry food in the am and the dry food/very mix in the pm. Thanks a lot for the input about fast eaters! I never thought to moisten the food - is that better for him or just a slow down tactic? Presently I'm using the large cookie sheet but that upside down bowl sounds like a good idea - if he eats to quickly, he just throws it up (I learned that in the first 2 days he was here)


I'd feed a little less than the recommended amount posted on the bag. After all, the company is trying to sell dog food! I fed my MIL's cockapoo (ideal weight 14-15 lb.) around 1/2 - 3/4 c. a day. Wellness Core is very nutrient dense, and dogs don't need a whole lot of it.
I've read that you should always moisten dry dog food, b/c it's like eating dehydrated food. It needs moisture to rehydrate it. Otherwise, the dog's system becomes dehydrated trying to hydrate the kibble once it's in its system. I hope that makes sense. I add enough water to just make the food barely float, let it sit for a couple of minutes (not to get it mushy), then feed. My dogs generally lick all the water (becomes flavored with the food) out first, then eat the kibble.


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## Felix

What is the weight you WANT him to be? I'm thinking they shouldn't be more than about 25 lbs. My *50lb* dog gets 2 cups per day at the height of his activity level (summer). In the winter we do 1.5 cups. So to hear that a dog that should be half his weight is getting 1.25 cups, I tend to think that's *way* to much. I would drop him down to 3/4 cup per day with a good amount of exercise. 

I love the Bob-a-lot and also I agree with getting him on a higher quality food. Feeding my dog Wellness CORE or EVO right now.


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## tanalive

Hello Felix, he's 33 lbs now but should be 15-18 so I'll shoot for 20lbs. The original owners were giving him 2 cups for dinner and I would think close to the same for breakfast. I don't seem to be able to add a picture but trust me, he really really needs to lose weight! I really sympathized with the person that had the 36 lb cavalier (original post) as I suspect that's what this fellow weighed when he got to us 2 weeks ago. I don't know the EVO brand but think the Wellness Core is doing the trick (he's walking a bit longer each time I take him out) The total (of both meals) I give him is 1 cup. So, 1/2 cup in the am and 1/2 a cup in the pm but along with the pm allotted amount, I'm adding chopped up carrots and green beans (probably 1/2 cup of the veggies mixed in) I did take georgia peaches advise and moisten the food with water and have been using the muffin cups successfully. I'll remember what you've said about adjusting the amount depending on activity level throughout the seasons - thanks!


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## Candyd

If you want to calculate with precision how many kcal and how much food your dog needs (enter your dog's ideal weight), you can use this tool :
Hilary Watson Pet Nutritionist


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## RawPitbulls

I think diet kibbles are silly and ineffective. Just portion control and exercise does the trick!


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## FBarnes

RawPitbulls said:


> I think diet kibbles are silly and ineffective. Just portion control and exercise does the trick!


The problem with diet kibbles is they replace good stuff with things like sawdust and other fillers. Just another marketing ploy.

I agree about adding water - I have always added water to my dog's food to get them to drink enough and keep them hydrated. I think kibble has about 8% water and I know we're not supposed to equate people and animals but I imagine eating a handful of crackers without anything to drink.


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## Tobi

RawPitbulls said:


> I think diet kibbles are silly and ineffective. Just portion control and exercise does the trick!


True story right here!

Something I think is funny though... Think about what they fatten grass fed beef up with weeks before slaughter... Grains. Dundundun! :nerd:


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## brindle

FBarnes said:


> The problem with diet kibbles is they replace good stuff with things like sawdust and other fillers. Just another marketing ploy.
> 
> I agree about adding water - I have always added water to my dog's food to get them to drink enough and keep them hydrated. I think kibble has about 8% water and I know we're not supposed to equate people and animals but I imagine eating a handful of crackers without anything to drink.


What brand uses sawdust?


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## kathylcsw

brindle said:


> What brand uses sawdust?


Many brands contain cellulose or powdered cellulose. That is sawdust.


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## StellaLucyDesi

I feel Wellness Core reduced fat is one of the best diet kibbles out there. It helped my Shih-Poo (now deceased) lose the weight he needed to lose. I also supplemented with green beans and as treats. There is another new diet kibble that looks interesting. It's not grain free, though some dogs do fine with grains. It's Natural Balance's Fat Dog kibble. They also have a Fat Cat version. It's a moderate protein, lower fat, higher fiber kibble. Moderate carbs, imo, though it does have low calories. The premise is you can feed your dog a larger portion and still benefit from weight loss....hmm. I also think this food would be a good one to try if your dog has fat intolerance issues or pancreatitis.


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## FBarnes

brindle said:


> What brand uses sawdust?


Science diet for one.


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## NewfieAussie

My dogs break down their own cellulose by chewing on branches and twigs.

So what if it has powdered cellulose(you call it sawdust for the drama), if you took a vitamin this morning you had sawdust too.

If you took any medication you had sawdust....I'll use your word, I like drama too.

Did you eat shredded cheese yesterday or sprinkle parmesan cheese on any spaghetti, it has sawdust in it.

I think some of these straining raw feed dogs could benefit from sprinkling some powdered cellulose on their carcass for lunch.


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## Candyd

No dog is able to break down molecules of cellulose. Only herbivores can do that.
And I've never heard of parmesan with cellulose in it, or it's not real parmesan.


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## FBarnes

NewfieAussie said:


> My dogs break down their own cellulose by chewing on branches and twigs.
> 
> So what if it has powdered cellulose(you call it sawdust for the drama), if you took a vitamin this morning you had sawdust too.
> 
> If you took any medication you had sawdust....I'll use your word, I like drama too.
> 
> Did you eat shredded cheese yesterday or sprinkle parmesan cheese on any spaghetti, it has sawdust in it.
> 
> I think some of these straining raw feed dogs could benefit from sprinkling some powdered cellulose on their carcass for lunch.


I don't call it sawdust for drama. I call it sawdust because that's what it is. Here's AAFCO's definition: 


_AAFCO: Purified, mechanically disintegrated cellulose prepared by processing alpha cellulose obtained as a pulp from fibrous plant materials._

And here's what Dog Food Project says about it: "Dried wood is the most common source for cellulose (I'm not kidding.). It is cleaned, processed into a fine powder and used to add bulk and consistency to cheap pet foods. I would consider this ingredient appropriate for termites, but certainly not for dogs or cats."

The only problem is Science Diet is cheap in ingredients, not in price. You feed YOUR dog sawdust if you like. I'll spend my money on alot better stuff.


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## brindle

Candyd said:


> No dog is able to break down molecules of cellulose. Only herbivores can do that.
> And I've never heard of parmesan with cellulose in it, or it's not real parmesan.


When I feed my dog a whole carrot, it isn't a visible carrot out the other end. Maybe some dogs CAN break down cellulose. 
I'm not a herbivore and I break down cellulose just fine and dandy.


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## Candyd

I'm afraid not. It's possible to partly digest a carrot for omnivores and carnivores, but it's impossible to break down cellulose. You and your dog should produce cellulase (the enzymes which breaks down cellulose into smaller molecules) for that. Only herbivores make cellulase and can break down cellulose. And actually, they don't even make cellulase by themselves, but a bacteria in their intestines does this work. It's taught at school and at university.


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## FBarnes

brindle said:


> When I feed my dog a whole carrot, it isn't a visible carrot out the other end. Maybe some dogs CAN break down cellulose.
> I'm not a herbivore and I break down cellulose just fine and dandy.


Neither humans nor dogs have the enzyme that breaks down cellulose. So no, you don't break down cellulose just fine and dandy. There might be a limited amount of digestion, but most of it passes right through you, also.


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## FBarnes

Candyd said:


> I'm afraid not. It's possible to partly digest a carrot for omnivores and carnivores, but it's impossible to break down cellulose. You and your dog should produce cellulase (the enzymes which breaks down cellulose into smaller molecules) for that. Only herbivores make cellulase and can break down cellulose. And actually, they don't even make cellulase by themselves, but a bacteria in their intestines does this work. It's taught at school and at university.


Exactly. There's a reason WE don't eat sawdust. Our dogs sure don't need it.


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## Tobi

FBarnes said:


> Exactly. There's a reason WE don't eat sawdust. Our dogs sure don't need it.


I always see carrots when I don't chew them good enough...and I still chew them kinda good for the most part, it's why I very much believe that dogs with their inability to grind vegetation don't get much from them if they weren't digested by another animal... If I'm eating carrots for instance, I chew it to a Mash and then I'll give it to tobi... Like a mama bird :lol:


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## NewfieAussie

But you do eat powdered cellulose, it's in all kinds of human foods.... ice cream, yogurt, the vitamins I already mentioned, grated cheese and a huge list of things. It helps keep you regular Barnes.

Call it sawdust, call it wood pulp, call it powdered cellulous. I'm afraid you spend your money on sawdust too in your food. It is really quite amazing how many human foods have it.

Tobi sure has a great Mama bird.


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## FBarnes

NewfieAussie said:


> But you do eat powdered cellulose, it's in all kinds of human foods.... ice cream, yogurt, the vitamins I already mentioned, grated cheese and a huge list of things. It helps keep you regular Barnes.
> 
> Call it sawdust, call it wood pulp, call it powdered cellulous. I'm afraid you spend your money on sawdust too in your food. It is really quite amazing how many human foods have it.
> 
> Tobi sure has a great Mama bird.


No I don't because I know how to read an ingredients list. My dogs don't so it's up to me to read it for them.


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## Candyd

Fresh fruits and vegetables are rich in cellulose, much better for you than all those processed foods with added cellulose. Nobody needs sawdust, but everybody needs fresh fruits and vegetables.


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## FBarnes

We eat alot worse than sawdust. Processed food is thoroughly disgusting. Most anything with red dye has crushed beetles in it. Ice cream - don't even get me started on how nasty it is. Far cry from what we made as a kid with our own arm power in the back yard and blackberries we picked off our own bushes.

11 Disgusting Ingredients That Aren't Advertised In Food - Business Insider


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## FBarnes

Candyd said:


> Fresh fruits and vegetables are rich in cellulose, much better for you than all those processed foods with added cellulose. Nobody needs sawdust, but everybody needs fresh fruits and vegetables.


Yep, give me carrot cellulose any day over wood cellulose.


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## NewfieAussie

Hey, I hand cranked vanilla ice cream with wild blackberries picked while on my horse so I wouldn't get chiggers. My horse would pick them and eat them too. 

Anyway, I'm tired of talking about cellulose. Need to get daughter to the bus for her senior trip to Pensacola Florida. They will be driving all night.


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## brindle

FBarnes said:


> Neither humans nor dogs have the enzyme that breaks down cellulose. So no, you don't break down cellulose just fine and dandy. There might be a limited amount of digestion, but most of it passes right through you, also.


I guess I had better not eat carrots. They aren't part of my "ancestral" diet lol


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## FBarnes

brindle said:


> I guess I had better not eat carrots. They aren't part of my "ancestral" diet lol


Did anyone here even mention ancestral diets? You are just trying to say something snarky and you should be able to do better than that. Go have a carrot.


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