# REALLY Worried



## Todd (Jan 13, 2010)

:frown:I have been feeding my dog a raw prey model diet for about a month now. I am VERY paraniod about my dog dieing from something like salmonilla, e-coli, or some sort of parasite. I have read that in the wild, dogs eat more fresh kill, and human grade meat found in stores are often infected from being handled from workers in the meat packing industry. Also, don't wolves in the wild have shorter lifespans? Also, if my dog DID happened to get salmonilla, e-coli, or a parasite, would she have a good chance of dieing or is it something that cane be trated fairly easily? Any advice would be appreciated. I REALLY want to continue this raw diet, I'm just very worried. 

Below is a link to a site I just read;

http://www.vetinfo.com/drawmeat.html


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## rannmiller (Jun 27, 2008)

Trust me, if your dog hasn't gotten salmonella, etc. yet, she won't! Remember, bacteria like that just isn't a problem for dogs; their digestive tracts are too small and their stomachs are too acidic, They are DESIGNED to handle and kill this bacteria. It's just not a problem for them. 

The main cause of a short lifespan for wolves in the wild is lack of medical care/treatment, and bullets. Not diet. 

Also, if your dog, by some tiny chance did manage to contract salmonella or e.coli, if you caught it early enough (which I'm sure you would because you're a good, observant dog owner) it is treatable.


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## CorgiPaws (Mar 31, 2009)

Dogs can handle this kind of bacteria far better than humans can. 
Keep in mind that kibble is not an alternative when this is your fear, as kibble has even more potential to be contaminated, and many have even been recalled because of these things being in them.
You're relatively new to PMR, only about 10 days according to your first post halfway through january, so these concerns will come up. Keep in mind most articles written by vets generally will not be in support of this diet, and are written by the same people who push science diet. 
You're doing what's best for your dog, but if you aren't comfortable with it, you can take a step back. You have to be comfortable with what you feed, and maybe you don't have enough questions answered to dive in yet. 
That's what we're here for. :biggrin:


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## RawFedDogs (Jun 16, 2008)

Todd said:


> :frown:I have been feeding my dog a raw prey model diet for about a month now.  I am VERY paraniod about my dog dieing from something like salmonilla, e-coli, or some sort of parasite.


Todd, stay away from those anti-raw websites. You should know that. They are trying to scare you into buying kibble. Dog dont get salmonella or e-coli. Remember, in the wild they would eat carrion and that is some very rotten meat. They can and do get parasites. They get worms, fleas and ticks among other things. These things are not diet related.



> I have read that in the wild, dogs eat more fresh kill, and human grade meat found in stores are often infected from being handled from workers in the meat packing industry.


When you read this stuff you have to use your head some and realize where the information comes from. Wolves/wild dogs eat carrion. Carrion is rotten carcasses of animals that have been dead for some time. Many raw feeders have dogs who will bury their chicken quarter and dig it up several days later and eat it with no ill effects.



> Also, don't wolves in the wild have shorter lifespans?


Yes, for the reasons already listed ... NOT because of diet.



> Also, if my dog DID happened to get salmonilla, e-coli, or a parasite, would she have a good chance of dieing or is it something that cane be trated fairly easily?


He won't get salmonella nor e-coli and he is no more likely to get a parasite than a kibble fed dog. They don't get parasites from the meat they eat. 



> Any advice would be appreciated.


The best advice I can give you is to watch what websites you read and use your logical mind to see if it is consistant with what you already know.



> I REALLY want to continue this raw diet, I'm just very worried.


I am disappointed. You should know better than to fall for that stuff.

ETA: If you want vet info on raw feeding, find a vet who actually feeds raw and ask them. The ones that have never fed raw don't have a clue.


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## LindaP (Jan 14, 2010)

I have to thank Todd for asking these questions and being open enough to express his misgivings. I would say someone new to this must be able to express these concerns in a place that makes it safe to do so. It's the only way to settle these fears--no matter that they were seeded by corporate marketing forces or misinformation. Otherwise, we who are new at this might never feel fully committed. Maybe we noobs "should know better," but it doesn't mean the questions don't exist anyway. See the quote below from rawmeatybones,com. The concerns are not entirely without foundation--although the occurrences are rare. Just sayin'...

So thanks to the vets, and please keep this a "safe" place to air these things that in the end benefit the owner and the doggies.

*From the raw meaty bones website:

Bacteria*_
Q. I am worried that my pet may contract bacteria from eating raw meat.

A. Pets can contract bacteria from eating raw meat, especially chicken, but this tends to be a mild or rare occurrence.
_________________________________________________________________
Q. My pet developed diarrhoea and vomiting after being fed raw chicken from the grocery store. Could it be due to a bacterial infection?

A. Yes. Bacteria, for instance Salmonella, Campylobacter or E.coli, could be responsible. Your veterinarian can diagnose and treat these infections.

_


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## Todd (Jan 13, 2010)

Thanks guys, I feel a lot better now:smile:

Also, how about the risks of me contracting these illnesses from Lucky? She sleep in my bed with me at night, licks me in the face, etc. Am I at risk for contracting an illness?


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## rannmiller (Jun 27, 2008)

I think maybe if you made out with her RIGHT after she got done eating or licked your hands after feeding her before washing them, then you're probably at risk of contracting these illnesses and should also see a psychiatrist because, well, you're making out with your dog! hehe

Aside from that, no, not at all. I let my dogs lick me all the time, whether they've just eaten or not and I have yet to contract any diseases from it.


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## RawFedDogs (Jun 16, 2008)

LindaP said:


> I have to thank Todd for asking these questions and being open enough to express his misgivings. I would say someone new to this must be able to express these concerns in a place that makes it safe to do so. It's the only way to settle these fears--no matter that they were seeded by corporate marketing forces or misinformation. Otherwise, we who are new at this might never feel fully committed. Maybe we noobs "should know better," but it doesn't mean the questions don't exist anyway. See the quote below from rawmeatybones,com. The concerns are not entirely without foundation--although the occurrences are rare. Just sayin'...


Linda, you are absolutely correct and I encourage these types of quesitions usually. However this time these questions that we see continously were from a person who has been giving out raw feeding advice like he is a veteran for weeks now. HE should know better. YOU have no way to know. You are not acting like an expert.



> *From the raw meaty bones website:
> 
> Bacteria*_
> Q. I am worried that my pet may contract bacteria from eating raw meat.
> ...


_

I haven't been to Tom's website for several years and I'm not sure what's on it. I can't argue with what he says. Dogs can and do eaten salmonella and other bacteria laden chicken and other meats. Salmonella has been found in stools of both raw fed and kibble fed dogs. However, the dogs don't get sick.
I have never known of a dog to be sick from a proven case of salmonella. Often when a vet sees a dog with diarrhea and/or vomit he will just assume it's salmonelly and go on from there.

I have fed my dogs some very rotten meat that MUST have had salmonella and tons of other bactria in it and they didn't get sick. They didn't even get lethargic. 

Sometimes a dog will get diarrhea or vomit. Does it mean it's caused from salmonella? Who knows? They are over it in a day or two without a trip to the vet so who cares exactly what caused it.

My raw fed dogs haven't had diarrhea for years. I can't remember my 5yo Dane ever having diarrhea but surely he must have at some time or other. 

What I'm using a lot of words to say is that salmonella, e-coli, or other bacteria injested through the mouth are just not a health risk to dogs. Their very acidic stomach acids kill most of it anyway as soon as it hits the stomach. I don't think this statement contradicts what Tom said.





Q. My pet developed diarrhoea and vomiting after being fed raw chicken from the grocery store. Could it be due to a bacterial infection?

A. Yes. Bacteria, for instance Salmonella, Campylobacter or E.coli, could be responsible. Your veterinarian can diagnose and treat these infections.

Click to expand...

Yes, its POSSIBLE. It's also very improbable. After a few years of experience or less, you will understand this. In the mean time, don't worry about bacteria in food. Your dogs will be ok. There are hundreds of thousands of dogs eating a raw diet with excellent health._


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## RawFedDogs (Jun 16, 2008)

Todd said:


> Thanks guys, I feel a lot better now:smile:
> 
> Also, how about the risks of me contracting these illnesses from Lucky? She sleep in my bed with me at night, licks me in the face, etc. Am I at risk for contracting an illness?


My dogs lick my face A LOT. Often right after eating. Sometimes I don't get around to washing my hands after feeding them. No one who lives in my house have gotten sick from my dogs. No one who visits my house has ever gotten sick from my dogs. My grandchildren who often play with my dogs on the floor and get licked a lot (not approved of my daughter in law) :smile: No one gets sick. Neither do the dogs.

This is a concern of people who have recently switched their dogs or are contemplating switching their dogs. After you have fed raw for a while these things won't bother you. You won't even think about them. It is a non-issue.

I know pregnant women and newborn babies that live with rawfed dogs without having any problems. In fact, I don't know of anyone who has ever had a problem.


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## DaneMama (Jun 27, 2008)

This forum is a place where you can come and ask those questions...100%. That is one of the main reasons why I post here...to help people, no matter what their question is. The newbies are the ones that are going to be the most susceptible to questioning things like the link above, I know this because I was one about a year ago. I have learned a lot since then, mostly from this forum and from others on here telling me that it will all be ok :biggrin:

But what it comes down to is that you have to feel comfortable with feeding you think is best for your dog.

To answer the question for Todd, you don't need to worry about bacteria. Your dog can pick up bacteria from anywhere, anytime and there is not much you can do about it. Bacteria are very persistent and prevalent in the environment, not just on raw meat.


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## J&T (Oct 13, 2009)

Of all the things about going raw that I was concerned about, bacteria etc wasn't very high on my list. These things are all over, ever present and will outlive everyone and everything on this planet. Other than feeding the dogs on a towel we don't do anything differant in our hygeine and cleaning routine.

As a sidelight to this, there was a very recent article about the extreme low rate of hospital infections, MRSA etc. in Norway. If I recall it is the lowest in the world. The doctors are no longer prescribing antibiotics, recommending antiseptics etc for most issues except those people with comprimised immune systems. It makes sense, if we are relatively healthy a little case of cannon butt from some bacteria isn't going to kill us. If we are not immuno compromised it will make us more healthy against future problems.


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## spookychick13 (Jan 26, 2010)

The Veterinary Practice I work for deals with our local Timber Wolf Reserve...these guys are fed a prey model raw diet and they live to be...are you ready? About 20!!!!!!!! I'm not joking 
They look great too. Of course she has them on heartgard, which helps to be sure.


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## Todd (Jan 13, 2010)

spookychick13 said:


> The Veterinary Practice I work for deals with our local Timber Wolf Reserve...these guys are fed a prey model raw diet and they live to be...are you ready? About 20!!!!!!!! I'm not joking
> They look great too. Of course she has them on heartgard, which helps to be sure.


what types of dogs are they?


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## CorgiPaws (Mar 31, 2009)

Todd said:


> what types of dogs are they?


"Timber Wolf Rescue" kind of expalined it.


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## Todd (Jan 13, 2010)

CorgiPaws said:


> "Timber Wolf Rescue" kind of expalined it.


how does that explain it???? a wolf and a dog are two different things:wink:


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## J&T (Oct 13, 2009)

My responses to people who ask me if I'm worried about bacterias etc.,
are something like this.

Did you ever have a BBQ for 20-30 people at your house, where you were cooking chicken, ribs, burgers etc? Do you sterilized everything moreso, just because of the quanity? The only differance is that you are feeding it to your dogs. You have just as much, watery/blood residue-greasey fatty-slimey stuff. You just have more to clean up from.

Do you have a kibble feed dog? Do you wash their bowl, clean the floor each time after they eat?

Do you wash their feet everytime they come in from the outdoors, where they probably ran through "crap and pee"?

Do you wash your dogs mouth out everytime he comes in from the outdoors, because there is a chance he ate some poop and then came in a gave you a sloobery lick?

The answers have always been , "well no".

My RFD bowls are cleaned more than the kibble fed, becaue they are fed in the kitchen where the dishwasher is and where the sink is and I'm too damned lazy to go and get the kibble fed bowls from the mudroom which is right next to the kitchen. My RFD dogs eat on a towel, which goes in the washer every 3-4 days when we do some laundry. We don't mop the mudroom floor every 3-4 days unless it gets muddy/dirty from going outside. My god the drool just from the boxer eating must be spawning billions of bacteria out there. 

A dog will drink out of the toilet, unless you shut the lid. A toilet is an Ecoli factory as those bacterias are already in us and when we crap them out they thrive in the toilet and smudge marks and little splatters.

Recent article I read talked about how Norway has the lowest rate of serious bacterial infections as the medical profession is urged to not provide antibiotics and to discourage the use of antiseptic sprays etc., because repeated uses is what causes resistency and mutation in bacterias. Also it is not a bad thing for a normal healthy person to get a "bug" as our body produces the best short and long term protection and will even provide a degree of protection to a mutated bacteria of a similar type.

Well sorry for the long rant, but I was on a roll.:biggrin:


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## DaneMama (Jun 27, 2008)

Todd said:


> how does that explain it???? a wolf and a dog are two different things:wink:


But in the post that you originally responded to, she said nothing of dogs but of the Timberwolf Rescue. You were the one that asked "what kind of dogs are they?"

The domestic dog is the sub-species to the grey wolf. This means that they are more closely related than any other two species. So they may be different species but only by about 0.02% genetically.


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## spookychick13 (Jan 26, 2010)

Oops sorry I wasn't specific, in the original post I saw a bit about wolves having a shorter life span, and just wanted to reassure you that they can actually live quite long.


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## Jem (Dec 17, 2009)

wolves in the wild do not die from illnesses due to what they eat. They can die from many different things: old age, starvation, other injuries that weren't treated, etc. Why would they die from what they are MEANT to eat? Doesn't make sense, and doesnt happen.


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