# I caved and got Advantix II



## Makovach

Fleas are TERRIBLE this year. I've heard a lot of people say fleas ticks and misquitoes are esspecially bad this year because we didnt have a long enough frozen streak to kill them off this winter. I've been using a mix of 50% raw unfilltered ACV, 50% water, a few drops of equliptis, lavendar, tee tree oils and spritz it on the dogs weekly. Spritz their bedding, the carpet and all that. I've been doing this for five years and never had a problem!! 

I've also been useing Diatomacious Earth in their bedding and on the carpets when I sweep this year. I tried putting it on them, but it dried their skin out terribly. 

So after haveing a flea here or there for about a month. I've become fed up with it. They are digging and scratching like no ones business and I found three on Tucker and four on Annie last night. Today at work, I bought a 4 pack of Advantix II. I brought it home and put it on them. 

I HATE useing chemicals. Does anyone else have any better ideas? 

Can I treat them every 7-8 weeks instead of every 3-4 weeks as reccomended? I do not like the idea of useing it, and I want to use it as little as possible.

Do you think I could just use one tube and split it between Annie and Tucker? The cost of it doesn't bother me, the idea of useing it does. I'm not trying to skimp on price, I just want to use as little as possible so that it will treat the flea problem, but they don't have to have much of it in their system. I HATE the stuff, But I've come to a loss...


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## MissusMac

I'm right there with you. I've been using DE like crazy since it stopped raining week before last, which is when the fleas came out. I've never seen them so bad and finally I bought some Sentry Natural Defense at Petsmart but I'm not sure if that's going to work very well. I'm about to cave, too.


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## MissusMac

I did bathe him with Melaleuca dish soap, which is made with tea tree oil, and it took care of all his fleas instantly... I just don't want to have to bathe him every week.


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## Makovach

MissusMac said:


> I'm right there with you. I've been using DE like crazy since it stopped raining week before last, which is when the fleas came out. I've never seen them so bad and finally I bought some Sentry Natural Defense at Petsmart but I'm not sure if that's going to work very well. I'm about to cave, too.


Bought it, Tried it, didnt work. I used it for about a week two weeks ago. I hope you have better luck!


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## Makovach

MissusMac said:


> I did bathe him with Melaleuca dish soap, which is made with tea tree oil, and it took care of all his fleas instantly... I just don't want to have to bathe him every week.


I vary between melaleuca dog shampoo with extra teetree added along with lavendar and equliptis oils, and Neem soapless shampoo. With both, it takes them off instantly, but they are back on in a day or so. I havent bathed them since we moved. I should have done that before we put the meds on!


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## kathylcsw

I bought some Revolution today. Lola had issues with fleas last year and it seemed to irritate her skin where she was bitten. From what I read Revolution is a little more gentle than most of the others. Plus it has heartworm protection. Guess I will see if it works since the Frontline I used last year did not.


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## malluver1005

I haven't used anything at all on Aspen as I haven't seen a single flea or mosquito...and I'm in so cal, so it gets pretty warm. I've been meaning to get DE but from what you guys are saying...that it dries the skin, I might not. I hope I don't see any fleas, but if I do, debating between Advantix II and Comfortis.


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## Makovach

kathylcsw said:


> I bought some Revolution today. Lola had issues with fleas last year and it seemed to irritate her skin where she was bitten. From what I read Revolution is a little more gentle than most of the others. Plus it has heartworm protection. Guess I will see if it works since the Frontline I used last year did not.


I can't use revolution because Annie is allergic to ivermectin.


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## bridget246

It worries me that your running into fleas. I get the feeling I might see them for the first time this year. I don't want to use chemicals and I don't want to over bath. This must be what they call a catch 22.


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## Makovach

bridget246 said:


> It worries me that your running into fleas. I get the feeling I might see them for the first time this year. I don't want to use chemicals and I don't want to over bath. This must be what they call a catch 22.


I hate it. i've never had fleas in five years of not useing chemicals. 

The box said 55+ extra large dogs. So I'm going to start useing half a tube per dog every 8 weeks and see how it goes. Then they are getting 1/4 the dose they usually would. I just can't stand to see them itch

Also I'm allergic to fleas and break out in hives when bit. then I itch too.


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## Makovach

malluver1005 said:


> I haven't used anything at all on Aspen as I haven't seen a single flea or mosquito...and I'm in so cal, so it gets pretty warm. I've been meaning to get DE but from what you guys are saying...that it dries the skin, I might not. I hope I don't see any fleas, but if I do, debating between Advantix II and Comfortis.


What is comfortis?


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## malluver1005

Makovach said:


> What is comfortis?


It's another type of flea crap. This one is a chewable tablet...Comfortis® (spinosad) Flea Protection Chewable Tablet — Comfortis4Dogs.com


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## InkedMarie

I've used bug off garlic, with great results, for years. Last year, one dog had just a couple ticks; other dog, who we had only had for six months and hadn't been on bog as long, had ticks and fleas. our holistic vet had us use Advantage. It's only for fleas and i felt guilty but we did what we have to. This year, we are getting cedar chips to put on the outside of our fence, it repels them (that's what the vet said)


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## Scarlett_O'

If we get fleas this year I will be getting flea busters....or what ever the little buggies are called that kill the fleas. There was a girl on here when I first joined(who I'm friends with on fbook) who speaks VERY highly of them....and I don't want any fleas!!LOL

I also have heard that all the bugs are suppose to be bad this year, time of fly preditors and flea busters I'm thinking!!


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## Kat

Of course, the first year I decide that I want to try it chemical free and there might be a huge increase in fleas -.-'


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## RCTRIPLEFRESH5

ugh now im nervous..comfortis is the safest flea product..but it doesnt kill ticks..also it reacts BADLY WITH ivermectin....so if anybody is using ivermectin for HW..buy trifexis which is comfortis plus interceptor in one.

right now winston isnt on any flea or tick stuff...confortis would be a waste as it doesnt kill ticks..we have frontline here(was included with Winston's adoption) but it is the 100-130 pound dose an wisnton is only 117....i' prefer the 50-100 dose


and yes give it every 8 wks...i know heartworm meds last 2 months...so flea mes should be fine

if comfortis killed ticks iwould give trifexis every 2 months..but since it doesnt im just going to use heartguard.


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## RCTRIPLEFRESH5

bug off is a hot topic...since garlic is suspected to be bad for dogs.


InkedMarie said:


> I've used bug off garlic, with great results, for years. Last year, one dog had just a couple ticks; other dog, who we had only had for six months and hadn't been on bog as long, had ticks and fleas. our holistic vet had us use Advantage. It's only for fleas and i felt guilty but we did what we have to. This year, we are getting cedar chips to put on the outside of our fence, it repels them (that's what the vet said)


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## RCTRIPLEFRESH5

doesnt natural defense discolor hair?


MissusMac said:


> I'm right there with you. I've been using DE like crazy since it stopped raining week before last, which is when the fleas came out. I've never seen them so bad and finally I bought some Sentry Natural Defense at Petsmart but I'm not sure if that's going to work very well. I'm about to cave, too.


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## Kat

I keep reading how DE can really dry out the skin and coat. For flea/tick/mosquito repellant im going to use a mixture of citronella, geranium, and lavender essential oils in an almond oil base to spray on Ruby for every walk. Do you think the almond oil would offset the drying effects of DE? Or could it cause clumping? This is going to be my first year using either DE or an oil based bug repellant (im making the repellant myself)


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## Liz

We are getting the nematodes for the yard as this is promising to be a bad year. I used them before in So. California and they were wonderful and cost effective.


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## malluver1005

Liz said:


> We are getting the nematodes for the yard as this is promising to be a bad year. I used them before in So. California and they were wonderful and cost effective.


That's what I did last year and the nematodes did their job!


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## InkedMarie

RCTRIPLEFRESH5 said:


> bug off is a hot topic...since garlic is suspected to be bad for dogs.


I don't have links or anything but all my research tells me personally that it's fine to use. You'd have to use a humongous amount to hurt a dog. Also, I weigh using the pesticides in flea/tick products over the Bug Off Garlic....give me the BOG please.


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## InkedMarie

This link was in a group email I just opened:

Natural Flea & Tick Control | Pest Repellent - Mercola.com


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## lovemydogsalways

I bought Advantix for the time being. I need to get some lavender, because I would really rather not keep putting the chemicals on them.


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## MissusMac

RCTRIPLEFRESH5 said:


> doesnt natural defense discolor hair?


I also read that in some reviews, but haven't noticed any discoloration. The smell has NOT gone away, though, so if it is bothersome to you then that would be really annoying. I kind of like the smell. It's been 4 days since the bath and Natural Defense application (3 tubes) and not a flea as of last night. *fingers crossed*


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## BearMurphy

liz and malluver, where do you order your nematodes from? I definitely want to try that this year for my yard and garden. probably have to wait until all threat of frost is gone though unless they can survive colder temps

also has anyone tried steeping lemon and rosemary in boiling water and bottling it to spray on your dog? i was going to use an ACV/water/essential oil combo but just read about the lemon one on another forum


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## shellbell

I am using Bug Off Garlic for the first time this year. No, it is not bad for my dogs to eat it. They would have to eat a TON of garlic (like more than they would probably willingly eat on their own anyway), for there to be a CHANCE that they might have a problem. 

I’m also going to spray them with Avon Skin-So-Soft before we go into any woodsy areas. This is our first summer being chemical free, so we will see what happens. I can’t use topical treatments on Tux b/c he has skin issues, and I’d rather not use them on Cabo either.


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## bridget246

I'm going to try the bug off garlic and the skin so soft. I'll just check for ticks after each visit in a woody area. My dog sheds a lot so getting combed is no big issue for her. 

I actually hated off with deet. It felt awful on my skin. The smell made me sick. Ruined everything I touched. Overall, it just wasn't good for night fishing and I still was bitten by bugs. I switch to skin so soft myself and I've noticed fewer bites and it doesn't ruin everything I touch. Was going to ask how safe it was to use on a dog.


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## shellbell

bridget246 said:


> Was going to ask how safe it was to use on a dog.


Before I even thought to use it on my dogs as bug repellant, my vet had mentioned to me that it is good to use for dogs who have dry skin. I do dilute the skin so soft with water before spraying it on them, I probably do about 1 part skin so soft to 4 or 5 parts water, combined in a spray bottle. Shake it and then spray. My vet had also said you can rinse them with skin so soft diluted with water in the bath tub, that would work for moisturizing and the scent would also linger for bug repellant.


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## chowder

Well, I just got done working in the yard, went to take a shower, and found 3 ticks on ME! None on the dogs. :twitch:

Life in North Carolina sucks. Literally. 


It's only March......I may end up taking the Advantix and using it on myself before the summer is over. We don't get fleas here (cross fingers) , but once you've starting picking ticks off yourself every night before you go to bed, you get a little twitchy.


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## InkedMarie

Earlier, I posted a link from Mercola. The spray is out of stock so I did some research and found that VetriScience makes a flea and tick repellant. I like VetriScience products so i figured I'd try it. Only Natural Pet has it for $18.95 a bottle, KV Vet has it for $10.95 a bottle!


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## 1605

Makovach said:


> Fleas are TERRIBLE this year. I've heard a lot of people say fleas ticks and misquitoes are esspecially bad this year because we didnt have a long enough frozen streak to kill them off this winter. I've been using a mix of 50% raw unfilltered ACV, 50% water, a few drops of equliptis, lavendar, tee tree oils and spritz it on the dogs weekly. Spritz their bedding, the carpet and all that. I've been doing this for five years and never had a problem!!
> 
> I've also been useing Diatomacious Earth in their bedding and on the carpets when I sweep this year. I tried putting it on them, but it dried their skin out terribly.
> 
> So after haveing a flea here or there for about a month. I've become fed up with it. They are digging and scratching like no ones business and I found three on Tucker and four on Annie last night. Today at work, I bought a 4 pack of Advantix II. I brought it home and put it on them.
> 
> I HATE useing chemicals. Does anyone else have any better ideas?
> 
> Can I treat them every 7-8 weeks instead of every 3-4 weeks as reccomended? I do not like the idea of useing it, and I want to use it as little as possible.
> 
> Do you think I could just use one tube and split it between Annie and Tucker? The cost of it doesn't bother me, the idea of useing it does. I'm not trying to skimp on price, I just want to use as little as possible so that it will treat the flea problem, but they don't have to have much of it in their system. I HATE the stuff, But I've come to a loss...


First & foremost, the chemicals in each tube are calibrated according to the weight of the dog PLUS putting it on the skin of the dog & it absorbing in. So you may want to stick with using the correct dosage for each dog. Otherwise you are compromising the effectiveness of the chemicals.

Also, if you are not using it according to directions regarding the duration, it is not going to be of much use: the chemicals are only effective for a certain length of time, given that dogs get wet, are bathed, etc.

If you don't want to use it, don't. But if you are, use it properly.


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## malluver1005

BearMurphy said:


> liz and malluver, where do you order your nematodes from? I definitely want to try that this year for my yard and garden. probably have to wait until all threat of frost is gone though unless they can survive colder temps
> 
> also has anyone tried steeping lemon and rosemary in boiling water and bottling it to spray on your dog? i was going to use an ACV/water/essential oil combo but just read about the lemon one on another forum


I get mine from fleabusters...

Flea Control Treatment Kills Dog Fleas and Cat Fleas - Fleabusters


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## Makovach

SubMariner said:


> First & foremost, the chemicals in each tube are calibrated according to the weight of the dog PLUS putting it on the skin of the dog & it absorbing in. So you may want to stick with using the correct dosage for each dog. Otherwise you are compromising the effectiveness of the chemicals.
> 
> Also, if you are not using it according to directions regarding the duration, it is not going to be of much use: the chemicals are only effective for a certain length of time, given that dogs get wet, are bathed, etc.
> 
> If you don't want to use it, don't. But if you are, use it properly.


Bluntly put. 

I hate the stuff. It turned white and powdery on their coats. And it stinks. And I don't want to poison my dogs. 

I'm looking into a few things others have mentioned. I'm getting rid of this crap.


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## RCTRIPLEFRESH5

malluver1005 said:


> I get mine from fleabusters...
> 
> Flea Control Treatment Kills Dog Fleas and Cat Fleas - Fleabusters


do they ship it overnight with plenty of ice packs to keep them alive???that's way cheaper then another site i found that was 80-200 for diff sizes.


how do i apply it?? do i grab them by hand and sprinkle them around? LOL. what bugs do they kill? for 39 bucks tht may be worth it.
are they safe for plants? my neighbor grows tomatoes an i was gonna put them on his tomatoes as they are right on the other side of the fence but i dont wanna poison him.


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## Scarlett_O'

RCTRIPLEFRESH5 said:


> do they ship it overnight with plenty of ice packs to keep them alive???that's way cheaper then another site i found that was 80-200 for diff sizes.
> 
> 
> how do i apply it?? do i grab them by hand and sprinkle them around? LOL. what bugs do they kill? for 39 bucks tht may be worth it.
> are they safe for plants? my neighbor grows tomatoes an i was gonna put them on his tomatoes as they are right on the other side of the fence but i dont wanna poison him.


It really helps to look around some times.....here are the answers to most of your questions, maybe you can look around your self for the others.

"Storage

Nematodes are alive and should be released within 7-10 days of arrival..you can see them with a magnifying glass. They will arrive to you unevenly dispersed in a strip of moist spore in the package. Refrigeration at 40-50 degrees f is the best way to temporarily store them...the sponge must remain damp. Add a few drops of water if the sponge appears to be drying out.

Release

Remove the sponge from the package. Neomatodes migrate into the sponge during shipping. Rinse the sponge and container, as completely as possible, into one gallon of water. You now have a concentrate. The neomatodes can withstand pressures up to 300 psi, therefore, you can apply them using your injector system, or dilute them with more water and use a pump sprayer, hose -end sprayer, watering can or pail. Constants agitation of the solution while applying will insure a more consistant application of the nematodes. They will survive in oxygen rich water, such as nutrient film technique (nft) systems, but you should not leave them in standing water for more than 2 hours. It is best to release them in the evening. They should be watered in to your media. A rinse of plain water after application will help insure that they have been carried into the root zone."

Fleabusters | Biobuster Flea Treatment Controls Fleas in Your Yard


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## 1605

Makovach said:


> Bluntly put.
> 
> I hate the stuff. It turned white and powdery on their coats. And it stinks. And I don't want to poison my dogs.
> 
> I'm looking into a few things others have mentioned. I'm getting rid of this crap.


Personally, we don't have that problem with "it turnin[ing] white and powdery on their coats": we use disposable gloves and make sure it is applied in more than one area and as close to the skin as possible. (Which is pretty hard to do with GSPs.)

Again, if you want to use the product or not, this is entirely your decision. But saying that you "don't want to poison my dogs" or referring to topicals as "crap" is misleading and inflammatory.

I'd like to reiterate a point I've made in other threads: chemicals are chemicals whether they be "natural" or "man made". So if you elect to use some other topical product to put on your dogs, or bathe them in a special shampoo, or put a special collar on them, YOU ARE STILL USING A CHEMICAL. 

And yes, "natural products" can be "poisons" too.


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## Makovach

SubMariner said:


> Personally, we don't have that problem with "it turnin[ing] white and powdery on their coats": we use disposable gloves and make sure it is applied in more than one area and as close to the skin as possible. (Which is pretty hard to do with GSPs.)
> 
> Again, if you want to use the product or not, this is entirely your decision. But saying that you "don't want to poison my dogs" or referring to topicals as "crap" is misleading and inflammatory.
> 
> I'd like to reiterate a point I've made in other threads: chemicals are chemicals whether they be "natural" or "man made". So if you elect to use some other topical product to put on your dogs, or bathe them in a special shampoo, or put a special collar on them, YOU ARE STILL USING A CHEMICAL.
> 
> And yes, "natural products" can be "poisons" too.



Its simply an opinion. 

I made sure to get it down to their skin in 4 different spots as the package recommended. For some reason it turned a powdery white color. Idk why. And IMO it smells terrible. 

Saying I don't want to poison my dogs, that's an opinion. I choose to use nothing. Or look into natural alternatives. Last I checked garlic, ACV, herbs, and plant based oils are not considered chemicals. Most of them that I use being edible, and taken by many as supplements. 

Saying its crap is an opinion. I could say its the most god awful thing on earth, its still just an opinion. 

Anything can be a poison if there is enough of it. Heck, you can poison yourself with water by drinking too much of it. 

But I'd rather use something more natural. That's all I was getting at. 

I just don't like the idea of chemicals going onto my dog. I wouldn't put chemicals like that on myself if I was to have lice or something.


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## Liz

That's true but DE has never caused a puppy to loose all motor control and Black Walnut has never caused neurological issues like heart worm preventative did. So for us naturally occurring toxins for flea and parasite prevention are a better option. There are many cases of problems with topicals and other conventional preventatives. I am glad you have not seemed to have issues with any.


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## shellbell

SubMariner said:


> we use disposable gloves and make sure it is applied in more than one area and as close to the skin as possible. (Which is pretty hard to do with GSPs.)


I’m confused, you say it is misleading to call topical treatments hazardous, yet you are concerned enough to wear disposable gloves when applying b/c you don’t want any of the product to get on your own skin? 

Yes, everyone is entitled to their own opinion. One of my dogs DOES have issues with topical treatments, so they are not used in my house. As always do your own research and do what you think is best for your dog, that is all anyone can do.


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## 1605

shellbell said:


> I’m confused, you say it is misleading to call topical treatments hazardous, yet you are concerned enough to wear disposable gloves when applying b/c you don’t want any of the product to get on your own skin?
> 
> Yes, everyone is entitled to their own opinion. One of my dogs DOES have issues with topical treatments, so they are not used in my house. As always do your own research and do what you think is best for your dog, that is all anyone can do.


NOWHERE did I say that topicals were not hazardous. I simply said that they are chemicals, just like any other treatment one chooses to use. 

EVERYTHING that you use to repel parasites, treat an illness, or feed to your animal is broken down by the animal's body as a chemical. And the body does not differentiate between a "natural" chemical or "synthetic" chemical.

I agree that everyone needs to do their own research and do as they think best. However, I am a little tired of being demonized because of what I choose to use to keep my dogs free of disease and pests.


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## Liz

I don't think anyone was saying you were bad for doing chemicals. I don't think you are. I think we do the best by our dogs that we can. Some have a harder time with fleas, ticks, mosquitos, etc. These are hard decisions to make. There have been some years fleas have been so bad I have wanted to use topicals desperately - but for me, naturally rearing and using naturally occurring remedies is what I have promoted for years so I really have to stick to my guns. For my placed pups I would love to have them continue to be naturally raised - but reality jumps in and about half are vaccinated although thankfully on a minimum schedule for the most part, most will be given flea/tick topicals though I do hold my ground on the heart worm. I believe you need to be comfortable with your plan for your pets. We just rarely use conventional medicine of any kind. I hope you don't feel you need to defend yourself - I don't. I try to be sure I am doing what I feel is right and the best I can by my guys as well as ethical because I state I am a naturally rearing breeder. :smile::smile:


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## 1605

Makovach said:


> Its simply an opinion.
> 
> I made sure to get it down to their skin in 4 different spots as the package recommended. For some reason it turned a powdery white color. Idk why. And IMO it smells terrible.
> 
> Saying I don't want to poison my dogs, that's an opinion. I choose to use nothing. Or look into natural alternatives. Last I checked garlic, ACV, herbs, and plant based oils are not considered chemicals. Most of them that I use being edible, and taken by many as supplements.
> 
> Saying its crap is an opinion. I could say its the most god awful thing on earth, its still just an opinion.
> 
> Anything can be a poison if there is enough of it. Heck, you can poison yourself with water by drinking too much of it.
> 
> But I'd rather use something more natural. That's all I was getting at.
> 
> I just don't like the idea of chemicals going onto my dog. I wouldn't put chemicals like that on myself if I was to have lice or something.


Hey, I will take the "less processed" route any time I can. For example, women like myself of [ahem] a certain age need a lot of calcium. I would have to consume far too many calories to get it all naturally, so I have to take supplements. I did some research to find out which type of calcium was best and discovered that some of the more "natural" sources were not really the best.

I just feel it is misinformation to state that using something like garlic or ACV means you are not using a chemical. If it's not a chemical, how does it work?

The other thing that I would like to point out that many "natural" products are not FDA regulated or approved. So while you may be getting a "natural product" it may not be in as concentrated/pure/effective a form to be of any use.

Pax


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## RCTRIPLEFRESH5

i always wonder if im doing the right thing by not using flea/tick products. I am greatly increasing winston's chance of lyme or other diseases..but at the end of the day I feel better about my decision....because those products WILL give your dogs cancer.
I DO give hw but only once every 2 months. I also use the 50-100 tabs for a 120 pound dog.
I've been using interceptor but after april i'm going to have to buy heartguard and ive heard a lot of dogs have bad reactions to ivermectin..so im scared.


SubMariner said:


> NOWHERE did I say that topicals were not hazardous. I simply said that they are chemicals, just like any other treatment one chooses to use.
> 
> EVERYTHING that you use to repel parasites, treat an illness, or feed to your animal is broken down by the animal's body as a chemical. And the body does not differentiate between a "natural" chemical or "synthetic" chemical.
> 
> I agree that everyone needs to do their own research and do as they think best. However, I am a little tired of being demonized because of what I choose to use to keep my dogs free of disease and pests.


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## RCTRIPLEFRESH5

supplements arent fda approved either. natural products lie ACV are real foods so they are approved by fda..not that it matters..pink slime is approved and that is s***.


SubMariner said:


> Hey, I will take the "less processed" route any time I can. For example, women like myself of [ahem] a certain age need a lot of calcium. I would have to consume far too many calories to get it all naturally, so I have to take supplements. I did some research to find out which type of calcium was best and discovered that some of the more "natural" sources were not really the best.
> 
> I just feel it is misinformation to state that using something like garlic or ACV means you are not using a chemical. If it's not a chemical, how does it work?
> 
> The other thing that I would like to point out that many "natural" products are not FDA regulated or approved. So while you may be getting a "natural product" it may not be in as concentrated/pure/effective a form to be of any use.
> 
> Pax


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## jiml

DE dust inhaled can cause silicosis


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## 1605

RCTRIPLEFRESH5 said:


> i always wonder if im doing the right thing by not using flea/tick products. I am greatly increasing winston's chance of lyme or other diseases..but at the end of the day I feel better about my decision....because those products WILL give your dogs cancer.
> I DO give hw but only once every 2 months. I also use the 50-100 tabs for a 120 pound dog.
> I've been using interceptor but after april i'm going to have to buy heartguard and ive heard a lot of dogs have bad reactions to ivermectin..so im scared.


With all due respect, unless you can provide links to some verified studies, you cannot say ".... because those products WILL give your dogs cancer". 

It all comes down to looking at the scientific evidence vs reactionary "feelings". If your dog or one of the dogs in his/her line have problems with certain chemicals, then by all means stay away from them. Likewise if there are a number of documented cases of Chemical X causing problems with your particular breed. But do some proper research first before rushing to judgment.


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## Makovach

SubMariner said:


> With all due respect, unless you can provide links to some verified studies, you cannot say ".... because those products WILL give your dogs cancer".
> 
> It all comes down to looking at the scientific evidence vs reactionary "feelings". If your dog or one of the dogs in his/her line have problems with certain chemicals, then by all means stay away from them. Likewise if there are a number of documented cases of Chemical X causing problems with your particular breed. But do some proper research first before rushing to judgment.


I do agree with this. There is no proof that it will give your dog cancer. I'm sure out of the thousands of people that use it, all their dogs do not/have not gotten cancer from this product alone. Sure, maybe some, maybe it contributes, but there is simply no evidence in that.


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## jiml

SubMariner said:


> Personally, we don't have that problem with "it turnin[ing] white and powdery on their coats": we use disposable gloves and make sure it is applied in more than one area and as close to the skin as possible. (Which is pretty hard to do with GSPs.)
> 
> Again, if you want to use the product or not, this is entirely your decision. But saying that you "don't want to poison my dogs" or referring to topicals as "crap" is misleading and inflammatory.
> 
> I'd like to reiterate a point I've made in other threads: chemicals are chemicals whether they be "natural" or "man made". So if you elect to use some other topical product to put on your dogs, or bathe them in a special shampoo, or put a special collar on them, YOU ARE STILL USING A CHEMICAL.
> 
> And yes, "natural products" can be "poisons" too.


Sub, I also use topical treatments however while natural chemicals may be less effective and also have potential hazards, those are usually much less severe and infrequent. The "chemicals" in ACV are no way equal, regarding possible hazzards, to the pestisides used in revolution.

Hanging around gundog forum to much? LOL:boink:


----------



## jiml

SubMariner said:


> With all due respect, unless you can provide links to some verified studies, you cannot say ".... because those products WILL give your dogs cancer".



Ill agree w this. Im all for being wary of pharmaceuticals, their overuse and side effects but lets not make thing up either


----------



## 1605

jiml said:


> Sub, I also use topical treatments however while natural chemicals may be less effective and also have potential hazards, those are usually much less severe and infrequent. The "chemicals" in ACV are no way equal, regarding possible hazzards, to the pestisides used in revolution.
> 
> Hanging around gundog forum to much? LOL:boink:


:lol: I try not to be as curmudgeonly as some of the "old timers" on GDF. AAMOF, I'm sure they consider me something of an "upstart liberal" who has all sorts of "fancy new-fangled notions". Like no corn or grains in my dogs' food! :tongue:
 
ALL chemicals, whether they be "natural" or "synthetic" carry with them pros & cons. To compare ACV with Revolution is really not apples to apples: for the purposes of this thread ACV is being used to repel fleas & ticks while Revolution does ticks, heartworm, mange, and a whole list of things I never knew it was used for. 

FWIW, we use a topical for fleas & ticks and ingested medication against heartworms.


----------



## 1605

jiml said:


> Ill agree w this. Im all for being wary of pharmaceuticals, their overuse and side effects but lets not make thing up either


I am TOTALLY on that page. I cannot believe how many people pester their physicians for antibiotics for viruses or the like that are unaffected by these types of drugs. 

That's how we wind up with "superbugs" and MRSAs...


----------



## RCTRIPLEFRESH5

SubMariner said:


> I am TOTALLY on that page. I cannot believe how many people pester their physicians for antibiotics for viruses or the like that are unaffected by these types of drugs.
> 
> That's how we wind up with "superbugs" and MRSAs...


i firmly believe cancer is caused by flea/tick products....tht shizz is toxic.


----------



## meggels

RCTRIPLEFRESH5 said:


> i firmly believe cancer is caused by flea/tick products....tht shizz is toxic.


Okay, but I could say I firmly believe that my dog will sprout a extra limbs if I feed him red jelly beans. 

It doesn't mean it is true. And you should be careful about making such um...strong statements...without any actual facts to back them up.


----------



## malluver1005

RCTRIPLEFRESH5 said:


> i firmly believe cancer is caused by flea/tick products....tht shizz is toxic.


I have to agree with this to some degree. Your dog is ingesting chemicals...that we know. It has not been proven that they CAUSE cancer. I firmly believe they contribute to it, and to a lot of other problems as well.


----------



## jiml

SubMariner said:


> :lol: I try not to be as curmudgeonly as some of the "old timers" on GDF. AAMOF, I'm sure they consider me something of an "upstart liberal" who has all sorts of "fancy new-fangled notions". Like no corn or grains in my dogs' food! :tongue:
> [/COLOR][/SIZE][/FONT]


Its like hanging out on 2 ends of the universe when it comes 2 nutrition.


----------



## jiml

malluver1005 said:


> I have to agree with this to some degree. Your dog is ingesting chemicals...that we know. It has not been proven that they CAUSE cancer. I firmly believe they contribute to it, and to a lot of other problems as well.


which cancer? An irritant or carcinogen leads to a specific cancer not just cancer in general.

risk/reward - depending on your area/circumstances the benefits MAY or MAY NOT outweigh risks.


----------



## malluver1005

jiml said:


> which cancer? An irritant or carcinogen leads to a specific cancer not just cancer in general.
> 
> risk/reward - depending on your area/circumstances the benefits MAY or MAY NOT outweigh risks.


Well if you go back and re-read my post, I said that I believe that it contributes to it. Not causes a certain cancer.


----------



## bridget246

SubMariner said:


> First & foremost, the chemicals in each tube are calibrated according to the weight of the dog PLUS putting it on the skin of the dog & it absorbing in. So you may want to stick with using the correct dosage for each dog. Otherwise you are compromising the effectiveness of the chemicals.
> 
> Also, if you are not using it according to directions regarding the duration, it is not going to be of much use: the chemicals are only effective for a certain length of time, given that dogs get wet, are bathed, etc.
> 
> If you don't want to use it, don't. But if you are, use it properly.


It is a fact that sometimes not using the full amount could still protect you. It is also a fact that another dog could use the full amount and still not be protected. 



Makovach said:


> Bluntly put.
> 
> I hate the stuff. It turned white and powdery on their coats. And it stinks. And I don't want to poison my dogs.
> 
> I'm looking into a few things others have mentioned. I'm getting rid of this crap.


I actually had the same experience when I tried it awhile back. Tried hard to wash it out of her. Stunk up the dog bad and left her with very dry skin. It was the only change we made. To us, it was poison and that was a fact rather or not it is the same for others.




meggels said:


> Okay, but I could say I firmly believe that my dog will sprout a extra limbs if I feed him red jelly beans.
> 
> It doesn't mean it is true. And you should be careful about making such um...strong statements...without any actual facts to back them up.


I'm not going to wait around for the debate to finish about cell phones giving cancer before using a bluetooth or living close to a coal plant can cause problems with breathing. I had some good teachers who gave us good facts on this stuff. Watched videos on a small community with a coal mind where everyone was dying early. Some expert came in and said it wasn't the coal plant that killed them. Of course the video was sponsored by the same people who owned the plant and that is who hired the research person and yet this actually still approved as fact. 

Deet makes me sick. Doesn't work well with bugs in my experience and it hurts the environment. It makes a lot people sick and yet it is still up for sell. I'm sure much less research money is spent on dogs. If this is allowed to happen to people then what makes us think it doesn't happen to dogs? How many years should we use it until someone says "oh look, this is causing pets to get sick". 

Here is my take on all this. If, and only if I can avoid using products that have been known, or suspected of causing harm then I will if it is affordable. I mean, why not? It helps me sleep at night and that is what is important to me. At the same time I hope that those who putting their trust into these companies are not going to end up regretting it.


----------



## RCTRIPLEFRESH5

does anyone have any facts to back anything up?????
we all say orijen is better than purina...plenty of dogs on orijen die before age 2 ..but purina dogs live to be 20......you guys are just getting upset because you know i'm most likely right, and you guys feel like me..trapped in a corner about what is right!
also im jsut sayig my opinion nothing wrong with that.opinions don;t need facts just education [/B]


meggels said:


> Okay, but I could say I firmly believe that my dog will sprout a extra limbs if I feed him red jelly beans.
> 
> It doesn't mean it is true. And you should be careful about making such um...strong statements...without any actual facts to back them up.


----------



## bridget246

RCTRIPLEFRESH5 said:


> does anyone have any facts to back anything up?????
> we all say orijen is better than purina...plenty of dogs on orijen die before age 2 ..but purina dogs live to be 20......you guys are just getting upset because you know i'm most likely right, and you guys feel like me..trapped in a corner about what is right!
> also im jsut sayig my opinion nothing wrong with that.opinions don;t need facts just education [/B]


When you boil it down all facts are actually opinion based. So if I base all my opinions on facts from my past can anyone fault my choices? I suppose they could, and some probably will. But you get the point.


----------



## Scarlett_O'

RCTRIPLEFRESH5 said:


> does anyone have any facts to back anything up?????
> we all say orijen is better than purina...plenty of dogs on orijen die before age 2 ..but purina dogs live to be 20......you guys are just getting upset because you know i'm most likely right, and you guys feel like me..trapped in a corner about what is right!
> also im jsut sayig my opinion nothing wrong with that.opinions don;t need facts just education [/B]


Wtf do you mean by "plenty of dogs on orijen die before age 2"?? I really think you need to stop just spewing...things, random things. 

Champion is better then purina for the plain fact that it is feeding a dog a diet towards being a carnivore, and purina is a complete 180 from that.


----------



## xchairity_casex

im not one to obsess about this stuff i mean sure im gonna do what i can to keep my pets as healthy as possable and keep as many harmful things out of there systems that i can but somethings i just have to use it and hope for the best. Cesar needs a spot on living here. hes been on a walk thru hte woods once this year and has already had 15 ticks on him this is an awful year for them hes gotten 5 ticks just from going out into the yard to go potty. ive tried the natural stuff on him and myself it doesnt work here the ticks just ignore it hell half the time the ticks ignore the chemical bug sprays i use on myself like off deep woods.
even went so far year before last to take a can of raid home and garden to spray my pant legs with didnt faze them little buggars. also the misquetos are also awful for us this year and the deer flies are already coming out and biteing and Cesar has allergic reactions to fly bites and last year nothing worked on the deer flys they were so bad tried avon skin so soft,all natural cittronella lotion/spray, all sorts of herbs and oils to no avail so this year he is getting a specfic fly ointment to repel them.

are those alot of dangerous chemicals going into his skin? yes. am i happy about doing it? not really but its either keep him happy and contented with chemicals now and deal with him maybe deal with him having an illness later or deal with him being miserable from the bugs forever.

we are all going to die we cannot even predict when or how or how awful it will be we cannot predict how or when our pets will die or from what so we have an obligation to keep there lives as happy and misery free for as long as we can untill that day comes for them. an if that means putting chemicals onto there bodies a few times a year to keep them happy for a while then ill do it at least untill somthing all naturally and safe does come along that REALLY works for our yooper super bugs.
(this is the only place ive seen that the deer flys are out biteing till 11 and midnight..not kidding)


----------



## RCTRIPLEFRESH5

there are dogs who live to be 20 on vegan diets and dogs who ie as puppies on orijen....''wtf'' are you spewing?
and YOUR OPINION is that dogs are carnivores......i agree with you, but it is an opinion.
so maybe you should stop spewing things....''wtf''
lie raw works for every dog when it doesnt....such as with jemma(i think thts her name...or amy?)


Scarlett_O' said:


> Wtf do you mean by "plenty of dogs on orijen die before age 2"?? I really think you need to stop just spewing...things, random things.
> 
> Champion is better then purina for the plain fact that it is feeding a dog a diet towards being a carnivore, and purina is a complete 180 from that.


----------



## Liz

Dogs being carnivores is a fact. They are not obligate carniviores like cats but they are carnivores. Let us notbe silly about actual facts. Even the Smithsonian lists dogs as carnivores.


----------



## Scarlett_O'

RCTRIPLEFRESH5 said:


> there are dogs who live to be 20 on vegan diets and dogs who ie as puppies on orijen....''wtf'' are you spewing?
> and YOUR OPINION is that dogs are carnivores......i agree with you, but it is an opinion.
> so maybe you should stop spewing things....''wtf''
> lie raw works for every dog when it doesnt....such as with jemma(i think thts her name...or amy?)



Hahahaha

Once again, a bunch of "facts" without anything I back them up. Vegan dogs living to be 20??? Really?? I would like to see where you get this from. 

Dogs are carnivores, that is a fact, everything about them states that they are, there is nothing, other then stupid/mislead people who say other wise. 

And if we must get into the raw/kibble thing again, well I will say once again.....human error.


----------



## bridget246

Scarlett_O' said:


> Wtf do you mean by "plenty of dogs on orijen die before age 2"?? I really think you need to stop just spewing...things, random things.
> 
> Champion is better then purina for the plain fact that it is feeding a dog a diet towards being a carnivore, and purina is a complete 180 from that.


We can keep playing the fact game if you like. It is a fact that some vets believe it is a fact that there is no point in buying a expensive bag of dog food. Consumers are being ripped off. Raw diets are hurting dogs, fact! Let us at least agree to be clear about one thing. Facts do not equal truth. They can be true but this isn't always the case and even when it is it often changes when we get more experience. 



RCTRIPLEFRESH5 said:


> there are dogs who live to be 20 on vegan diets and dogs who ie as puppies on orijen....''wtf'' are you spewing?
> and YOUR OPINION is that dogs are carnivores......i agree with you, but it is an opinion.
> so maybe you should stop spewing things....''wtf''
> lie raw works for every dog when it doesnt....such as with jemma(i think thts her name...or amy?)


Who is Jemma? I would argue that a raw diet would work with every dog. I could be wrong. Some people aren't willing to change their raw diet to fit their dog and this leads them to believe that the raw diet didn't work. 

I'm going to lose most of you with this next example. Samsung Android phones are really hard to brick. I'd say they were impossible to brick. But, that doesn't stop people from claiming they broke their device trying to install a mod. Once the common fixes fail to get the device working again they assume it can't be fixed. People like me come in and charge you a bunch of money to fix your device that you claimed couldn't be fixed. I've done the same with Iphones when people try to jailbreak them without reading up on how to do it right and what to do if that doesn't work. 

This is my last post on this. It isn't going to get us anywhere. Can we get back on subject? I want to more about alternative for fleas other than the flea prevent medication without people coming in and yelling about facts.



Scarlett_O' said:


> Hahahaha
> 
> Once again, a bunch of "facts" without anything I back them up. Vegan dogs living to be 20??? Really?? I would like to see where you get this from.
> 
> Dogs are carnivores, that is a fact, everything about them states that they are, there is nothing, other then stupid/mislead people who say other wise.
> 
> And if we must get into the raw/kibble thing again, well I will say once again.....human error.


There has been some vegan dogs who live up to 20 years. Look it up for yourself before you question it so much. Some facts argue against dogs being fully carnivore. Like it or not, facts are not black and white.


----------



## RCTRIPLEFRESH5

if cats are obligate carnivores why do they eat cat chow???
and scarletto emma or amy or w/e her name was...was coached by jon and nat in person and ithink they know how to feed raw .


Liz said:


> Dogs being carnivores is a fact. They are not obligate carniviores like cats but they are carnivores. Let us notbe silly about actual facts. Even the Smithsonian lists dogs as carnivores.


----------



## Scarlett_O'

RCTRIPLEFRESH5 said:


> if cats are obligate carnivores why do they eat cat chow???
> and scarletto emma or amy or w/e her name was...was coached by jon and nat in person and ithink they know how to feed raw .


You really dont understand about humans being so lazy and shoving processed foods into animals that it turns around and kills...do you??
Just because something eats something doesn't mean that that is what they need to thrive. 
Cats ARE obligate carnivores...I don't get why you are bothering to argue with of that FACT!


And human error can be made by anyone....doesn't mean that Nat and Jon dont know what they are doing, but someone sure was screwing up.....and it might very well go all the way back to the breeder, line developer...who knows? But I don't see why raw/kibble needed to come into this thread.


----------



## whiteleo

RCTRIPLEFRESH5 said:


> if cats are obligate carnivores why do they eat cat chow???
> and scarletto emma or amy or w/e her name was...was coached by jon and nat in person and ithink they know how to feed raw .


Do you ever read the crap you post before you hit "submit reply" because sometimes you sound like a crazy man......Cat's are obligate carnivores! LOOK IT UP............................................


----------



## Scarlett_O'

bridget246 said:


> We can keep playing the fact game if you like. It is a fact that some vets believe it is a fact that there is no point in buying a expensive bag of dog food. Consumers are being ripped off. Raw diets are hurting dogs, fact!  Let us at least agree to be clear about one thing. Facts do not equal truth. They can be true but this isn't always the case and even when it is it often changes when we get more experience.


I don't understand hardly a single part of this post.....why it is "to" me, or...well any of it!Haha


----------



## RCTRIPLEFRESH5

thn why do they eat cat chow? obligate means only meat.


----------



## Scarlett_O'

RCTRIPLEFRESH5 said:


> thn why do they eat cat chow? obligate means only meat.


Taken from a website I found when I googled "what does obligate carnivore mean"

"What does it mean to be an ‘obligate carnivore’?* It means that your cat was built by Mother Nature to get her nutritional needs met by the consumption of a large amount of animal-based proteins (meat/organs) and derives much less nutritional support from plant-based proteins (grains/vegetables). It means that cats lack specific metabolic (enzymatic) pathways and cannot utilize plant proteins as efficiently as animal proteins."

So long story short....."Why do cats eat kibble?" BECAUSE HUMANS ARE STUPID AND LAZY thus came up with kibble to make it "easy" on them selves!!!


----------



## bridget246

Scarlett_O' said:


> I don't understand hardly a single part of this post.....why it is "to" me, or...well any of it!Haha


You were talking about the pet food. That was it. It is only loosely related to you. I believe it was about Purina vs champion. Purina has more invested in research and is backed by more facts. Doesn't make it right to feed imo. To make this clear. I think we are both in agreement that dogs and cats should eat meat. If only a had a dollar for every professional that tried to argue against me on that with what they called "facts". 



RCTRIPLEFRESH5 said:


> thn why do they eat cat chow? obligate means only meat.


How about we agree to hang this up for now? It isn't getting you or anyone of us anywhere. Why do people feed their dogs vegan diets? I really don't know. If I had a cat they wouldn't be eating cat chow. So lets drop it. 

It is a fact that we at Dog Food Chat make better choices about what to feed our dogs. This thread has been derailed. Lets get it back on topic. I enjoyed reading about the alternatives that people were using. Sorry for even getting into the fact debate. I apparently only made it worse.


----------



## RCTRIPLEFRESH5

you aren't any better jsut bc u feed raw...but your worse for insulting half of this forum who feeds kibble.


Scarlett_O' said:


> Taken from a website I found when I googled "what does obligate carnivore mean"
> 
> "What does it mean to be an ‘obligate carnivore’?* It means that your cat was built by Mother Nature to get her nutritional needs met by the consumption of a large amount of animal-based proteins (meat/organs) and derives much less nutritional support from plant-based proteins (grains/vegetables). It means that cats lack specific metabolic (enzymatic) pathways and cannot utilize plant proteins as efficiently as animal proteins."
> 
> So long story short....."Why do cats eat kibble?" BECAUSE HUMANS ARE STUPID AND LAZY thus came up with kibble to make it "easy" on them selves!!!


----------



## bridget246

So how well does garlic work for those of you who use it? I've been thinking of giving it a try.


----------



## Dude and Bucks Mamma

RCTRIPLEFRESH5 said:


> i firmly believe cancer is caused by flea/tick products....tht shizz is toxic.


I'm sure you're right. I'm sure that flea/tick products can contribute to cancer but there are SO many things that cause cancer that I find it hard to believe that flea/tick medication is the only cause. You need to remember that Winston could never ever have flea/tick medication put on him and there is still a possibility that he could be diagnosed with cancer later. My dalmatian died from cancer at 14 years old and had never even been in the same room as flea/tick medication. My grandfather's doberman was diagnosed with cancer at ten years old and she had never been treated for fleas/ticks/heartworm ever. She had puppy vaccinations in the first few months of her life and that was it. 



RCTRIPLEFRESH5 said:


> does anyone have any facts to back anything up?????
> we all say orijen is better than purina...plenty of dogs on orijen die before age 2 ..but purina dogs live to be 20......you guys are just getting upset because you know i'm most likely right, and you guys feel like me..trapped in a corner about what is right!
> also im jsut sayig my opinion nothing wrong with that.opinions don;t need facts just education [/B]


I have a fact. My brittany lived to be 17 and had been treated with flea and tick medication many times. No signs of cancer. You say that it WILL give our dogs cancer. Hoss didn't have cancer. Sure, he is only one dog but that is proof that flea/tick medication is not a surefire way to give your dog cancer. 

Upset because we know you are right? No. I'm not upset. Just amused. I don't feel trapped in a corner at all. I used flea and tick products for years with no ill effects. I would rather not but I'm pretty sure I don't feel like you.



RCTRIPLEFRESH5 said:


> there are dogs who live to be 20 on vegan diets and dogs who ie as puppies on orijen....''wtf'' are you spewing?
> and YOUR OPINION is that dogs are carnivores......i agree with you, but it is an opinion.
> so maybe you should stop spewing things....''wtf''
> lie raw works for every dog when it doesnt....such as with jemma(i think thts her name...or amy?)


Food isn't the only thing that causes death. There are many health issues that happen in dogs and many dogs die from accidents and injuries.

Dogs ARE carnivores. It isn't an opinion. It's a fact. Sorry, but all of the proof points to carnivore. Abi also clearly stated that it is her OPINION that raw works for every dog. She never said she felt it was a fact.



RCTRIPLEFRESH5 said:


> if cats are obligate carnivores why do they eat cat chow???


Hmmm, because people MAKE them? All of my cats were hunters. If they didn't get let out or catch anything THEn they would eat their cat chow. If we found fur or feathers on the patio we knew they weren't going to eat their cat chow.





ANYHOW!!! Now that I have opened this for the first time and am being forced to face the horrendous flea/tick season that seems to be rapidly approaching... 

I think I will be looking into Fleabusters. I am not going to order any just yet because I have had dogs for 21 years and have yet to have a flea problem but with what everyone is saying I think that maybe I should have a backup plan in case we all start itching. I have heard great things about the nematodes form a large number of people from all over the states and in a few other countries. They are natural little organisms and, although it seems somewhat creepy to me to spread what, IMO, are like little bugs all over my house, I would MUCH rather go that route than the chemicals. I have never had good experiences with the chemicals. They smell, are greasy, discolor fur, and are just not fun to have around. I don't have a ton of experience with these products, however, so I was probably using some of the worst. I will be watching this thread to see what else people use that works.


----------



## Scarlett_O'

RCTRIPLEFRESH5 said:


> you aren't any better jsut bc u feed raw...but your worse for insulting half of this forum who feeds kibble.


I never said I was better then anyone. And any CAT OWNER who I have offended is welcome to step up, explain how I offended them and then I will apologized to them. However since I have, this whole time, been talking about the beginning of kibble, why it started, etc I can't see any one doing so.


----------



## bridget246

bridget246 said:


> So how well does garlic work for those of you who use it? I've been thinking of giving it a try.


That was a serious question. I don't know how much to give or when to give it. In the morning, or a few hours before going out in an area that might have more fleas than normal.


----------



## jiml

I would argue that a raw diet would work with every dog. I could be wrong.>>>>


My dog is one. wont take it, barks at it from an ealy age like it was alive and going to attack her. she will eat nothing raw wont even drink raw milk.

LOL


but she loves pickles


----------



## Liz

See, it's a fact - the pickles warped her!!! LOL :wink: JK


----------



## CorgiPaws

This thread makes my eyes twitch. 
And I'm glad we don't have flea issues here.
And cats are obligate carnivores because they require taurine intake to live, they do jot produce their own.


----------



## Muttkip

I just give a garlic pill with every meal and it seems to do the trick....just make sure to start it a month before the flea season hits. I've been doing this for about 2 years now with no flea problems and I live in Georgia which is like the flea capital of the world!


----------



## xellil

RCTRIPLEFRESH5 said:


> there are dogs who live to be 20 on vegan diets and dogs who ie as puppies on orijen....''wtf'' are you spewing?
> and YOUR OPINION is that dogs are carnivores......i agree with you, but it is an opinion.
> so maybe you should stop spewing things....''wtf''
> lie raw works for every dog when it doesnt....such as with jemma(i think thts her name...or amy?)


I would like you to name a dog who has lived to 20 on a vegan diet. Please, if you say something like that you need to have some proof.
Here is the ingredients list of one that won a PETA award:
Ingredients:
Wheat, Whole Corn, Soybean Meal, Quinoa and Oats Wheat Middlings, Corn Gluten Meal, Soybean Oil, Beet Pulp, Pasta, Rice, Peas, Dicalcium Phosphate, Brewers Yeast, Whole Flaxseed, Salt, Calcium Carbonate, Fructooligosaccharides, Rosemary, Parsley, Mineral Supplement (Iron sulfate, Zinc Oxide, Manganese Oxide, Copper Sulfate, Calcium Iodate, Cobalt Carbonate, Sodium Selenite), Choline Chloride, Vitamin Supplement (Vitamin E supplement, Vitamin A Acetate, Niacin, Vitamin B12 supplement, Biotin, Calcium Pantothenate, Riboflavin, Vitamin D2 supplement, Folic Acid), Mixed Tocopherols
Vegetarian Dog Food Ingredients - What is in V-dog, a complete balanced meat free dog food with nutrients

Some of the vegan dog foods I have seen say you need to supplement because it's not nutritionally complete. I believe that about this one also - I don't think a dog could live healthily solely on this food for many years. And i think the chance of developing allergies is extremely high - it has corn, soy, wheat - all the things that are likely to make a dog allergic.

And i've said it before - I think raw would work for every dog. But it doesn't work for every owner.

has anyone in Texas used the nematodes? I wonder how well they would work with the fire ants and the really dry ground in the summer.


----------



## RCTRIPLEFRESH5

it was obviously a hyperbole example that food doesnt matter much in lifespan...dogs die early on orijen..and live long lives on puppy chow all of the time....for those of you with reading comprehension deficiencies im using this example because i believe orijen is good and PC is not.....

but if you insist....
Vegetable-Eating Dog Lives to Ripe Old Age of 29; Also: Who is the Oldest Dog in the World; And: How to Make Your Dog Live 1.8 Years Longer

Oldest dog living (27 years) is a vegetarian??? - Boxer Board
[/B]


xellil said:


> I would like you to name a dog who has lived to 20 on a vegan diet. Please, if you say something like that you need to have some proof.
> Here is the ingredients list of one that won a PETA award:
> Ingredients:
> Wheat, Whole Corn, Soybean Meal, Quinoa and Oats Wheat Middlings, Corn Gluten Meal, Soybean Oil, Beet Pulp, Pasta, Rice, Peas, Dicalcium Phosphate, Brewers Yeast, Whole Flaxseed, Salt, Calcium Carbonate, Fructooligosaccharides, Rosemary, Parsley, Mineral Supplement (Iron sulfate, Zinc Oxide, Manganese Oxide, Copper Sulfate, Calcium Iodate, Cobalt Carbonate, Sodium Selenite), Choline Chloride, Vitamin Supplement (Vitamin E supplement, Vitamin A Acetate, Niacin, Vitamin B12 supplement, Biotin, Calcium Pantothenate, Riboflavin, Vitamin D2 supplement, Folic Acid), Mixed Tocopherols
> Vegetarian Dog Food Ingredients - What is in V-dog, a complete balanced meat free dog food with nutrients
> 
> Some of the vegan dog foods I have seen say you need to supplement because it's not nutritionally complete. I believe that about this one also - I don't think a dog could live healthily solely on this food for many years. And i think the chance of developing allergies is extremely high - it has corn, soy, wheat - all the things that are likely to make a dog allergic.
> 
> And i've said it before - I think raw would work for every dog. But it doesn't work for every owner.
> 
> has anyone in Texas used the nematodes? I wonder how well they would work with the fire ants and the really dry ground in the summer.


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## InkedMarie

xellil said:


> I would like you to name a dog who has lived to 20 on a vegan diet. Please, if you say something like that you need to have some proof.
> Here is the ingredients list of one that won a PETA award:
> Ingredients:
> Wheat, Whole Corn, Soybean Meal, Quinoa and Oats Wheat Middlings, Corn Gluten Meal, Soybean Oil, Beet Pulp, Pasta, Rice, Peas, Dicalcium Phosphate, Brewers Yeast, Whole Flaxseed, Salt, Calcium Carbonate, Fructooligosaccharides, Rosemary, Parsley, Mineral Supplement (Iron sulfate, Zinc Oxide, Manganese Oxide, Copper Sulfate, Calcium Iodate, Cobalt Carbonate, Sodium Selenite), Choline Chloride, Vitamin Supplement (Vitamin E supplement, Vitamin A Acetate, Niacin, Vitamin B12 supplement, Biotin, Calcium Pantothenate, Riboflavin, Vitamin D2 supplement, Folic Acid), Mixed Tocopherols
> Vegetarian Dog Food Ingredients - What is in V-dog, a complete balanced meat free dog food with nutrients
> 
> Some of the vegan dog foods I have seen say you need to supplement because it's not nutritionally complete. I believe that about this one also - I don't think a dog could live healthily solely on this food for many years. And i think the chance of developing allergies is extremely high - it has corn, soy, wheat - all the things that are likely to make a dog allergic.
> 
> And i've said it before - I think raw would work for every dog. But it doesn't work for every owner.
> 
> has anyone in Texas used the nematodes? I wonder how well they would work with the fire ants and the really dry ground in the summer.


Yikes and they call that nutritionally balanced?


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## xellil

I saw that article. I don't believe it, frankly. I believe that dog was also eating meat.


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## Makovach

I say that this went a little bit out of control. 

This post wasn't about dogs living longer on raw, orgin, purina, or vegan diet. Its not about weather dogs are carnivores or cats are obligate carnivores. Or if raw is better than kibble. Or any of the things it has come to be. 

It was simply about K9 advantix, not liking it, asking for more holistic, natural preventatives. 

I would really appreciate if it would get back on track.

I know bridget was asking about the garlic. I too would like to know about this. What is bug off garlic? What kind do you use? How much? how often?

What are nematodes? I read that they are like killer round worms? Are they safe to use in the house? or are they an outside use only? Will they hurt the dogs? Can the dogs contract worms from them?

I'm also looking into the spray that was mentioned. 

I hope we can get this turned around and back on track. Its pretty disappointing... :/


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## Liz

Here are a few things we use for fleas: This year nematodes from Flea Buster for outdoors (we have tons of stray cats)
Garlic one capsule per day per dog, ACV in their water, DE in their exercise pen, bedding, house furniture, alcohol and water spritz before hiking or going to the lake, night light with a shallow pan of water with a few drops of Dawn dishsoap in it to kill fleas in the house at night. Holistic cedar based dog shampoo - made from Dr. Bonner castile soap with cedar oil drops, and lemon oil. That's everything I can think of off the bat. Hope it helps a bit.


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## lovemydogsalways

Garlic has to be given daily to work, I believe, to those that are asking.


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## RCTRIPLEFRESH5

Liz said:


> Here are a few things we use for fleas: This year nematodes from Flea Buster for outdoors (we have tons of stray cats)
> Garlic one capsule per day per dog, ACV in their water, DE in their exercise pen, bedding, house furniture, alcohol and water spritz before hiking or going to the lake, night light with a shallow pan of water with a few drops of Dawn dishsoap in it to kill fleas in the house at night. Holistic cedar based dog shampoo - made from Dr. Bonner castile soap with cedar oil drops, and lemon oil. That's everything I can think of off the bat. Hope it helps a bit.


what about for ticcks?


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## wolfsnaps88

Guinea fowl and a tick twister


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## RCTRIPLEFRESH5

this looks good but isnt castor oil what gos into cars? Vetri-Repel Flea & Tick Spray or Wipes for Dogs and Cats


RCTRIPLEFRESH5 said:


> what about for ticcks?


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## Scarlett_O'

RCTRIPLEFRESH5 said:


> this looks good but isnt castor oil what gos into cars? Vetri-Repel Flea & Tick Spray or Wipes for Dogs and Cats


Castor oil is a vegetable oil obtained from the castor bean (technically castor seed) it is used to make MANY things, including industrial lubricants(along with many other industrial, medical, and more uses.)


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## CorgiPaws

Scarlett_O' said:


> Castor oil is a vegetable oil obtained from the castor bean (technically castor seed) it is used to make MANY things, including industrial lubricants(along with many other industrial, medical, and more uses.)


And it's sometimes used to induce labor! Lol


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## Scarlett_O'

CorgiPaws said:


> And it's sometimes used to induce labor! Lol


Haha, yet another "DID YOU KNOW?!?" learned here on DFC!Lol :laugh:


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## CorgiPaws

Scarlett_O' said:


> Haha, yet another "DID YOU KNOW?!?" learned here on DFC!Lol :laugh:


I'm such a pregnancy/ birth junkie.


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## bridget246

Liz said:


> Here are a few things we use for fleas: This year nematodes from Flea Buster for outdoors (we have tons of stray cats)
> Garlic one capsule per day per dog, ACV in their water, DE in their exercise pen, bedding, house furniture, alcohol and water spritz before hiking or going to the lake, night light with a shallow pan of water with a few drops of Dawn dishsoap in it to kill fleas in the house at night. Holistic cedar based dog shampoo - made from Dr. Bonner castile soap with cedar oil drops, and lemon oil. That's everything I can think of off the bat. Hope it helps a bit.


By capsule do you mean 1 clove of garlic?


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## Dude and Bucks Mamma

RCTRIPLEFRESH5 said:


> it was obviously a hyperbole example that food doesnt matter much in lifespan...dogs die early on orijen..and live long lives on puppy chow all of the time....for those of you with reading comprehension deficiencies im using this example because i believe orijen is good and PC is not.....


Reading comprehension deficiencies? Come on, RC. Don't stoop to that level.



From what I have heard about the nematodes, they can be used both inside and outside. You can have someone come out and spread them for you or you can order them and do it yourself. 

I haven't used garlic only because of the ongoing debate about whether it is toxic or not but I have a feeling that I will be reconsidering that if we end up with fleas!

Oh! Question! We use garlic ALL the time and in almost EVERYTHING we cook. Could that in and of itself contribute to a house with a lower chance of fleas? I mean, flies leave garlic fed horses alone so why not people? Horses and people both sweat it out.


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## RCTRIPLEFRESH5

wolfsnaps88 said:


> Guinea fowl and a tick twister


no way am i buying a bird lol


going bk to the cat discussion if cats are obligate carnivores then why don't they switch to raw easily?


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## lovemydogsalways

RCTRIPLEFRESH5 said:


> no way am i buying a bird lol
> 
> 
> going bk to the cat discussion if cats are obligate carnivores then why don't they switch to raw easily?


Cats are very picky and do not like certain textures of food. Could you imagine eating a dry food for three+ years and then you suddenly have this cold meaty stringy thing in your bowl.


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## Liz

We always used garlic in capsules - so I will have to look up the raw garlic amount. I will post it in a bit. 

Dosage According to Natural Dog Health Remedies, the following measurements are safe for your pet. Make sure you have an accurate weight of your dog:
10 to 15 lbs. - half a clove
20 to 40 lbs. - one clove
45 to 70 lbs. - two cloves
75 to 90 lbs. - 2.5 cloves
100 lbs. and over - three cloves
Only give five out of seven days to prevent any possibility of toxic build up. If giving raw garlic which we might have to this year I will do every other day.


Read more: How Much Garlic Does a Dog Need to Get Rid of Fleas? | eHow.com How Much Garlic Does a Dog Need to Get Rid of Fleas? | eHow.com


RC - cats are like some people and are very persnikketty. They do what they want whether it is good for them or not because they can. Some cats don't like change and some don't want to do the work to eat raw because we have taught them that they barely have to chew to get nutrients.


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## Scarlett_O'

Liz said:


> We always used garlic in capsules - so I will have to look up the raw garlic amount. I will post it in a bit.
> 
> Dosage According to Natural Dog Health Remedies, the following measurements are safe for your pet. Make sure you have an accurate weight of your dog:
> 10 to 15 lbs. - half a clove
> 20 to 40 lbs. - one clove
> 45 to 70 lbs. - two cloves
> 75 to 90 lbs. - 2.5 cloves
> 100 lbs. and over - three cloves
> Only give five out of seven days to prevent any possibility of toxic build up. If giving raw garlic which we might have to this year I will do every other day.
> 
> 
> Read more: How Much Garlic Does a Dog Need to Get Rid of Fleas? | eHow.com How Much Garlic Does a Dog Need to Get Rid of Fleas? | eHow.com
> 
> 
> RC - cats are like some people and are very persnikketty. They do what they want whether it is good for them or not because they can. Some cats don't like change and some don't want to do the work to eat raw because we have taught them that they barely have to chew to get nutrients.


What are your dosing guidelines for caps, or powder?

I know if/when I need to use garlic...if this year is bad, I will be SOL to get Dixi and Leo to eat a garlic clove, even Rhett is questionable!!LOL (I know the piggies, Brody and Keeva, will gladly eat it!!LOL)

Oh and just soemthing funny. I finally gotta more ACV, added a glop to the dog's water....now Keeva can't go more then 15 min without HAVING to have a drink or two!LOL (Jesse said its cause she thinks it's candy water!Lol)


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## Liz

I use one garlic capsule per dog. Everything I have researched on garlic is that the craze against garlic is due tot he same chemical found in onions that is so toxic to dogs. Difference is there is a ton more of this chemical in onion than there is in garlic. Yes it can build up which is why I only do every other day. But it would take a lot of garlic to get the same toxicity as onion.


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## meggels

My friend has been feeding his dogs garlic for 15 or so years, no problems what so ever. 


I give Murph & Ab like 3/4 tsp garlic granules in their dinners, i"m pretty sure their dosage is supposed to be higher though. Once that's finished I'll probably just order the bug off garlic.



My friend also recommends EVOO (company name) cedar oil to spray on your dog once a week. I cannot stand the smell though.


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## Scarlett_O'

Liz said:


> I use one garlic capsule per dog. Everything I have researched on garlic is that the craze against garlic is due tot he same chemical found in onions that is so toxic to dogs. Difference is there is a ton more of this chemical in onion than there is in garlic. Yes it can build up which is why I only do every other day. But it would take a lot of garlic to get the same toxicity as onion.


Thanks!:smile:

You know my mental issues with garlic and onions....but if the fleas get bad enough I might have to get past that road block!:wink:


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## RCTRIPLEFRESH5

Scarlett_O' said:


> Thanks!:smile:
> 
> You know my mental issues with garlic and onions....but if the fleas get bad enough I might have to get past that road block!:wink:


onions are definitely bad....garlic is debateable


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## RCTRIPLEFRESH5

i wonder if one bug off pil would be enough to have an effect on winston..i dont feel comfortable giving more.


Scarlett_O' said:


> Thanks!:smile:
> 
> You know my mental issues with garlic and onions....but if the fleas get bad enough I might have to get past that road block!:wink:


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## Scarlett_O'

RCTRIPLEFRESH5 said:


> onions are definitely bad....garlic is debateable


I've had bad experiences with both. That is what I was saying to Liz, which she already knows.


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## bridget246

I'm going to be to nervous to feed garlic if you leave it at what went wrong. I'm going to assume the worse.


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## Liz

We fed our shelties garlic capsules in california every other day year round and never had a problem other than garlic breath. I didn't like garlic breath so stopped and have use other alternatives but with the promised bad flea season will probably feed it this year.


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## Scarlett_O'

bridget246 said:


> I'm going to be to nervous to feed garlic if you leave it at what went wrong. I'm going to assume the worse.


It was with a much smaller dog then yours...my Dad's Frenchie at around a year old, he had a bad anemic reaction to both garlic and onion(at 2 different times), he is fine now, and was a few days later...but with having smaller dogs I'm not sure I could go thru it again.


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## bridget246

I'm going to try feeding half of the dosage and see what happens. I'm always afraid of capsule by how they are processed. I would rather use the actually food item and or make my own.


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## meggels

Smaller dogs are more at risk? I give the granules to Murph. Haven't been doing it for long though.


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## Scarlett_O'

meggels said:


> Smaller dogs are more at risk? I give the granules to Murph. Haven't been doing it for long though.


I have no solid proof, other then what I've wittnessed with my own eyes, and I'm just not to the point that I'm comfortable to move past it using what others have wittnessed with their own dogs. 

Like with any other holistic or modern approach everyone needs to do what they feel comfortable with.


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## meggels

what would make me most comfortable is to put him in a bubble...like that movie LOL


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## xellil

I just wonder why, if onions are poisonous to dogs, garlic isn't. Aren't they close to the same thing?

I'd love to try garlic but I'm afraid it might hurt them.


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## RCTRIPLEFRESH5

they are from the same family and thus contain some similar ingredients...one mutual ingredient is toxic...however it is present at levels high enough to be harmful to dogs in onions..and it is debated about whether the levels in garlic are harmful since the amount is much less than that of onion....I will not give winston garlic i;m not comfortable right now.


xellil said:


> I just wonder why, if onions are poisonous to dogs, garlic isn't. Aren't they close to the same thing?
> 
> I'd love to try garlic but I'm afraid it might hurt them.


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## Liz

This info is from Natural Dog Health

For a dog to develop Heinz-body anemia, he would have to eat over 0.5% of his body weight in onions to even begin the oxidative process. It means a healthy 60-pound dog would have to eat a whole 5-oz onion,

That would be a lot of garlic by comparison and garlic contains considerably less of this toxic chemical than onion so they would probably have to eat garlic by the whole bulb. You would only have an issue if your dog was pre anemic or anemic already.


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## RCTRIPLEFRESH5

isnt 50 percent of 60 pounds 30 pounds? where is the 5oz onion coming in?


Liz said:


> This info is from Natural Dog Health
> 
> For a dog to develop Heinz-body anemia, he would have to eat over 0.5% of his body weight in onions to even begin the oxidative process. It means a healthy 60-pound dog would have to eat a whole 5-oz onion,
> 
> That would be a lot of garlic by comparison and garlic contains considerably less of this toxic chemical than onion so they would probably have to eat garlic by the whole bulb. You would only have an issue if your dog was pre anemic or anemic already.


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## Liz

It said .5 not 50. so half a percent


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## Caty M

RCTRIPLEFRESH5 said:


> isnt 50 percent of 60 pounds 30 pounds? where is the 5oz onion coming in?


She said 0.5%.. not 50%. I doubt even garbage gut Tess would eat 50% of her weight in onions. Unless they were caramelized or something.. :shocked:


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## Dude and Bucks Mamma

I don't know how I feel with feeding garlic. I would constantly be paranoid that I was feeding too much and I am not fond of garlic breath. I'm not paranoid about much with my dogs but that is one thing I question.


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## Muttkip

This is what I use it's one pill with every meal once a day for my two and I have an almost 10 year old 22ish pound Beagle and a 38 pound Lab/Mountain Cur/Pit Bull mix. Again start giving them the pill with every meal a month before flea season to allow it to get into their blood. I've been doing this for two years now because I hate using chemicals on my dogs. And it works!


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## Makovach

After further research, I think I feel comfortable giving it to my dogs every other day. My only problem will be getting them to eat. it. 

Has anyone ever used brewers yeast and garlic tabs or powder? I've been using it for 5 years and its always held up. I hadn't been using it in the last 4-6 months because of winter and being so busy. I started to wonder how the brewers yeast could be affecting them so I stopped it again after starting a couple weeks ago. I'm working on researching it, but was wondering if anyone else had used it?


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