# How to appraise for "ideal" defecation.



## ManaSpirit (Mar 7, 2010)

Hi, i'm new! i hope this is the place to post this question. 

i'll try to be a pc as possible and forgive me if i get too clinical. i've read people that a dog's doo (oh heck with pc i'll just go with cutesy teeheehee) should ideally be a certain texture and size and a certain amount of times per day. but i do not have a very firm grasp about what a "firm" specimen should be and i have no idea how to judge the size or how often. 

mana is a 4 month old labrador pitbull (weighs 25lbs),. eats three times a day (1 cup each meal). she goes between 3 and 4 times. one in the early am. one after lunch. and twice after dinner. right now she is on science diet lamb/rice puppy (ps: our vet exclusively sells every formula available). (which will change as soon as her shipment of 100% grain free comes in). 

here are some stats if it helps:

frequency: 3-4 time daily

texture/firmness: firm enough that i can pick it up without it sticking to the grass.

size: bear with me ... diameter: maybe 1/2in. length: 6-8 inches (if unbroken). 

sorry for being so technical. if anyone has any wisdom or thoughts to impart. they are VERY appreciated!


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## RawFedDogs (Jun 16, 2008)

You couldn't find a worse food to feed your dog except maybe for Ol' Roy from Walmart. The volume of your pup's stools seem huge to me. I have two Great Danes and their output is about 10% of your pups and they weigh 125 and 145 lbs. Poop volume is directly related to quality of food. Poop is nothing more that the food that passed through the dog undigested. Science Diet produces HUGE stools.


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## malluver1005 (Nov 15, 2009)

^^^I agree. 3-4 times a day is way too much for a dog to be poopin'. Like RFD said, it all depends on the quality of the food. My dog poops about 10% of what your pup does. He goes only once a day. Sometimes, but hardly ever, he'll go twice. And he's 115 lbs. :smile:


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## ManaSpirit (Mar 7, 2010)

wow. I HAD NO IDEA! EEEK! now this is something i wouldn't have known! thank you. *sigh. to think i only asked because i was curious about comments made by other owners. thank you again! her diet will be changing very soon, if not by tomorrow. 

note: at her first check up dh was asked if the stool was normal. and he guessed it was and that was the end of it.


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## whiteleo (Sep 7, 2008)

Her stool is normal for a kibble fed dog that is full of inappropriate fillers that dog food companys like to cram in there for the sake of money making. Once you switch to a grain free kibble her stools will change to less frequency and amount, but your talking to people who don't feed kibble at all.:biggrin:


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## RawFedDogs (Jun 16, 2008)

But the principles are still the same. The more garbage in the more garbage out.


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## wags (Jan 31, 2009)

When I did not read ingredient labels and went by gee that bag looks so inviting(( the outside of the bag ))knew nothing I also at one point fed my dogs which I thought was wonderful science diet. I think a lot of people have been down this road not knowing it was an unfit choice of food. heck the commercials for Iams, & Eukenuba sponsors dog shows, Purina is out there promoting their junk & we all get caught up in the hype of televsion and the magazine ads! But then we learn! We start to go to sights that tell us gee just read the ingredient label find products that have meat in the first two three ingreditents of he list, not by products or soy or corn or wheat in the product. Garuinless is a great great choice for your dog! There are places on line that sell them and if you have mom and pop stores to supposrt. 
Well from the others you can tell your pups eating not a great food and is doing way too much popping! So going on a higher quality kibble and you can top it at times with a high quality canned (wet) food. There is a lot of good foods out there!
Go to dogfoodanalysis.com and look at the better quality foods! You will be happier with the less pooping! and your dog will give you lots of kisses!


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## 1605 (May 27, 2009)

RawFedDogs said:


> You couldn't find a worse food to feed your dog except maybe for Ol' Roy from Walmart. The volume of your pup's stools seem huge to me. I have two Great Danes and their output is about 10% of your pups and they weigh 125 and 145 lbs. Poop volume is directly related to quality of food. Poop is nothing more that the food that passed through the dog undigested. Science Diet produces HUGE stools.


Great synopsis!

Zio's "output" has decreased dramatically with him going on EVO Large Bites Turkey & Chicken (vs. a brand that shall remain nameless but is a big hit on some other forums). 

Also, the quality tells in his ability to keep weight on with less food, even though he's so high energy.


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## ManaSpirit (Mar 7, 2010)

all this insight is invaluable. and it makes sense to me that the less stool she excretes, the more she is keeping to grow off of. 

i have stopped SD for two days now. My first choice was Canidae GrainFree ALS. But since I wanted to get her off SD immediately, I bought TOTW Wetlands formula because it is the most grainfree brand i can buy locally (and therefore immediately) and also the one with less protien (26%) as she is a 4mo old. The bag says it's for all stages. And I'd like to give it a try since it's stocked at our local farm feed store. 

I proportioned her SD and TOTW, but by her second bowl, she wasn't eating the mix. so out of curiosity, i seperated a few bits of TOTW and SD ... she ingested the TOTW and completely ignored the SD bits. For the last two days, she's been on TOTW, 100%. No vomiting or leaky stool so far. 

_HOWEVER_, her stools have not changed. They are a very good consistency, pick it up without it sticking to the ground, and nicely segmented. _But they are still big. _

Do I need to wait a bit more or can I try the rest of the 5lb bag? thanks!


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## JayJayisme (Aug 2, 2009)

Before I started feeding my dogs raw meaty bones, they were on TOTW Wetlands formula and their stools were the biggest I had ever seen. They were good quality, firm stools, but HUGE! 

Sure, TOTW Wetlands is grain free. But the primary filler is potato, which is just as useless to a canine as grains and very much the reason the stools are huge. Your dog cannot process potatoes, therefore they pass right through.


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## DaneMama (Jun 27, 2008)

ManaSpirit said:


> _HOWEVER_, her stools have not changed. They are a very good consistency, pick it up without it sticking to the ground, and nicely segmented. _But they are still big. _


This is not surprising. Grain free foods are *better* than grain inclusive because potato is a better quality filler, but a filler none the less. I see grain free foods as kinda like a bag of potatoes instead of a bag of grain. Some grain free formulas are better than others, so you might want to try and feed another one and see if it changes.

If you want "perfect" small bowel movements you will have to go raw exclusively.


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## ManaSpirit (Mar 7, 2010)

JayJayisme said:


> Before I started feeding my dogs raw meaty bones, they were on TOTW Wetlands formula and their stools were the biggest I had ever seen. They were good quality, firm stools, but HUGE!
> 
> Sure, TOTW Wetlands is grain free. But the primary filler is potato, which is just as useless to a canine as grains and very much the reason the stools are huge. Your dog cannot process potatoes, therefore they pass right through.


thank you so much! it's great to know from someone with that formula experience. your thoughts on filler make me wonder if they are there to of necessity ... to keep the protien content low. 



danemama08 said:


> This is not surprising. Grain free foods are *better* than grain inclusive because potato is a better quality filler, but a filler none the less. I see grain free foods as kinda like a bag of potatoes instead of a bag of grain. Some grain free formulas are better than others, so you might want to try and feed another one and see if it changes.
> 
> If you want "perfect" small bowel movements you will have to go raw exclusively.



great reasoning! i'll keep trying. i kinda had hopes got TOTW because it's available locally but i'll do what i must. and actually, the more i read about raw diet, the more i'd like to start her on it. of course, from what i've read it's not too good for a pup her age. but i'm gradually increasing my knowledge of raw as i have hopes of incorporating her food budget into the rest of the families (maybe a more economical).


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## DaneMama (Jun 27, 2008)

ManaSpirit said:


> of course, from what i've read it's not too good for a pup her age.


I would love to know where you read that raw is not good for puppies so I can go tell them that they are wrong. 

Raw is the best thing to feed a growing puppy. It give a more consistent base of nutrition that allows for more gradual growth than kibble does. My first Great Dane was raised on kibble and had numerous growth spurts. Our second Great Dane puppy has been raised on exclusively raw and has had no such growth spurts. She has had a more gradual growth over the past year and is as healthy as can be. 

Actually the earlier you switch a puppy over, the better and easier the transition is because the less time the dog is exposed to kibble the better.


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## ruckusluvr (Oct 28, 2009)

danemama08 said:


> This is not surprising. Grain free foods are *better* than grain inclusive because potato is a better quality filler, but a filler none the less. I see grain free foods as kinda like a bag of potatoes instead of a bag of grain. Some grain free formulas are better than others, so you might want to try and feed another one and see if it changes.
> 
> If you want "perfect" small bowel movements you will have to go raw exclusively.


Just had to say. I agree 100%


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## 1605 (May 27, 2009)

danemama08 said:


> Raw is the best thing to feed a growing puppy. It give a more consistent base of nutrition that allows for more gradual growth than kibble does. My first Great Dane was raised on kibble and had numerous growth spurts. Our second Great Dane puppy has been raised on exclusively raw and has had no such growth spurts. She has had a more gradual growth over the past year and is as healthy as can be.


No offense, but unless you had a complete genetic background on BOTH dogs, then carefully charted the impact of all environmental factors on BOTH, how can you empirically attribute "numerous growth spurts" to kibble?

Also, I find your assertion that raw is "a more consistent base of nutrition" than kibble somewhat misleading. On what are you basing this statement?

I am not trying to start up yet another RAW vs kibble war. I just want people to realize that anecdotal information is not necessarily fact.


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## RawFedDogs (Jun 16, 2008)

SubMariner said:


> No offense, but unless you had a complete genetic background on BOTH dogs, then carefully charted the impact of all environmental factors on BOTH, how can you empirically attribute "numerous growth spurts" to kibble?


More anecdotal information ... BUT ... it has always been talk on all the Great Dane discussion boards about the numerous growth spurts Great Dane puppies go through. Tons of information about it, etc. Many many discussions. There were many discussions on how to stop these growth spurts because many physical problems were attributed to them.

However once a good number of Dane fanciers began feeding raw, it was quickly noticed that raw fed Dane puppies do not have these growth spurts. Growth is slow and even throughout puppyhood.



> Also, I find your assertion that raw is "a more consistent base of nutrition" than kibble somewhat misleading. On what are you basing this statement?


I don't find it misleading at all. People seem to assume that every batch of any particular kibble is identical to every other batch of the same kibble and thats just not true. They all vary very greatly depending on the ingredients in that particular batch. For example, Chicken meal only has to contain 51% chicken. The other stuff can come from any animal. One batch can be 51% chicken and the next batch 80% chicken. You just never know from one batch to the next what it will be. It depends on the garbage arriving at the rendering plant that day. This is the same will all the meals.

When you feed a chicken quarter, its 100% chicken every time. Thats consistancy.



> I am not trying to start up yet another RAW vs kibble war. I just want people to realize that anecdotal information is not necessarily fact.


Its often the fact that many people can't look at 2 + 2 and realize that it comes out to 4 every time. They have to have dozens of double blind studies before they are convinced.

ETA: If you notice the dog food analysis on each bag of kibble it says many times "not less than" or "not more than". This is because of the inconsistency of each batch of the food. Each run is different than the proceeding one.


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## DaneMama (Jun 27, 2008)

SubMariner said:


> No offense, but unless you had a complete genetic background on BOTH dogs, then carefully charted the impact of all environmental factors on BOTH, how can you empirically attribute "numerous growth spurts" to kibble?


Like RFD said, a lot of raw feeders have seen these same results with growing puppies, especially from a lot of raw feeding Dane owners on that forum since we have to keep close track on their growth and bones. Testimonials and personal experiences mean more to me than clinical trials and research because usually those studies are not even close to what real life is like for dogs. I guess its all coincidence that it seems to be a major trend among raw feeders 

And FYI: when you start off your statement with "No offense..." that alone is offensive to most people, or it just gives the disclaimer that "what I have to say is going to be offensive regardless of this disclaimer". Just start off your statement with what you actually mean to say. Just a thought.



> Also, I find your assertion that raw is "a more consistent base of nutrition" than kibble somewhat misleading. On what are you basing this statement?


I am basing this off of numerous testimonials and personal stories that people have shared over the years about raising their puppies on raw vs kibble. The fact that growth spurts are not observed at least in most cases tells me that puppies are getting a more well rounded diet on raw as compared to kibble, with which growth spurts are a normality (at least with Danes because they grow so fast and so much in comparison to other breeds). 

What do you find misleading about my statement?

We already know that there are not "scientific studies" done on raw feeding. All of our basis for following this diet are done on other peoples experiences and looking to nature.



> I am not trying to start up yet another RAW vs kibble war. I just want people to realize that anecdotal information is not necessarily fact.


Unfortunately when asking these types of questions you are opening the door for another debate on raw vs kibble. Just comes with the territory...which is just fine with me!!! I love debating the subject and well equipped to do so :wink:

You are right anecdotal information isn't necessarily fact...but you can hardly say that the "scientific studies" are fact when they are all based on completely, 100% FALSE ideas and concepts. The whole "scientific" nutrition backed community is based off of a fallacy and nothing more. Unfortunately there are more "facts" than we can all keep track of and each "fact" is subjective to the person...one person may think that one thing is true or law but another think that person wrong in what they believe.

What I think is fact:

Raw is the BEST nutrition and diet for ANY growing puppy or kitten.

Raw is the BEST nutrition and diet for ANY adult dog or cat.

My "facts" may be based on anecdotal information and personal experience, but that is all I need to know to feel comfortable with saying these as facts to others. :biggrin:


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## JayJayisme (Aug 2, 2009)

ManaSpirit said:


> thank you so much! it's great to know from someone with that formula experience. your thoughts on filler make me wonder if they are there to of necessity ... to keep the protien content low.


Fillers are there for two reasons:

1. To bind all the junk in kibble together.

2. To fatten the bank accounts of the commercial pet food manufacturing companies.

It is NOT there to provide any nutritional benefit to your pet.


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## RCTRIPLEFRESH5 (Feb 11, 2010)

what are you switching her to?


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## RCTRIPLEFRESH5 (Feb 11, 2010)

danemama08 said:


> *What I think is fact:*
> 
> Raw is the BEST nutrition and diet for ANY growing puppy or kitten.
> 
> ...


facts are not thoughts they are proven. what you said were opinions.

if we wanted to go by the facts there are plenty of dogs on purina living to be 15-20.

although i agree that raw is what a dog should eat =p. but there is nothing wrong with a grain free meat based kibble like canidae, orijen ,evo. all good kibble.


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## DaneMama (Jun 27, 2008)

RCTRIPLEFRESH5 said:


> facts are not thoughts they are proven. what you said were opinions.
> 
> if we wanted to go by the facts there are plenty of dogs on purina living to be 15-20.
> 
> although i agree that raw is what a dog should eat =p. but there is nothing wrong with a grain free meat based kibble like canidae, orijen ,evo. all good kibble.


But what you think is fact may be completely different than what anyone else thinks as fact...so all the "facts" out there are completely opinion based no matter how you look at it or how much scientific study has been done. You are never going to believe a fact unless you agree with it. I think that raw is the beat option out there for many, many more reasons than I'm going to list in this post...whether they are backed by "facts" or "opinions".... to me they are one and the same. Scientific LAW on the other hand is a different story altogether.

You and I disagree on kibble then because i see a LOT wrong with even the grain free kibbles...


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## CorgiPaws (Mar 31, 2009)

RCTRIPLEFRESH5 said:


> there is nothing wrong with a grain free meat based kibble like canidae, orijen ,evo. all good kibble.


Purple= wrong

CANIDAE GRAIN FREE ALS:
Chicken meal, turkey meal, lamb, potatoes, peas, chicken fat (preserved with mixed tocopherols), lamb meal, ocean fish meal, tomato pomace, natural flavor, choline chloride, suncured alfalfa meal, inulin (from chicory root), lecithin, sage extract, cranberries, beta-carotene, rosemary extract, sunflower oil, yucca schidigera extract, dried enterococcus faecium fermentation product, dried lactobacillus acidophilus fermentation product, dried lactobacillus casei fermentation product, dried lactobacillus plantarum fermentation product, dried trichoderma longibrachiatum fermentation extract, vitamin E supplement, iron proteinate, zinc proteinate, copper proteinate, ferrous sulfate, zinc sulfate, copper sulfate, potassium iodide, thiamine mononitrate, manganese proteinate, manganous oxide, ascorbic acid, vitamin A supplement, biotin, calcium pantothenate, manganese sulfate, sodium selenite, pyridoxine hydrochloride (vitamin B6), vitamin B12 supplement, riboflavin, vitamin D3 supplement, folic acid, cobalt proteinate, papaya, pineapple.


EVO
Turkey, chicken, turkey meal, chicken meal, potatoes, herring meal, chicken fat, natural flavors, egg, apples, tomatoes, potassium chloride, carrots, vitamins, garlic, cottage cheese, minerals, alfalfa sprouts, ascorbic acid, dried chicory root, direct-fed microbials, vitamin E supplement, lecithin, rosemary extract.


ORIJEN REGIONAL RED:
Fresh deboned wild boar, fresh deboned lamb, lamb meal, russet potato, fresh deboned pork, peas, salmon meal, whitefish meal*, herring meal, fresh deboned bison, fresh whole eggs, potato starch, fresh deboned salmon (a natural source of DHA and EPA), alfalfa, sweet potato, fresh deboned walleye, salmon oil (naturally preserved with vitamin E and citric acid), pea fiber, psyllium, pumpkin, tomatoes, carrots, apples, cranberries, Saskatoon berries, black currants, chicory root, licorice root, angelica root, fenugreek, marigold flowers, sweet fennel, peppermint leaf, chamomile flowers, dandelion, summer savory, rosemary, organic kelp, vitamin A, vitamin D3, vitamin E, niacin, zinc proteinate, thiamine mononitrate, riboflavin, vitamin B5, iron proteinate, vitamin B6, manganese proteinate, copper proteinate, folic acid, biotin, vitamin B12, selenium, dried Lactobacillus acidophilus product, dried Enterococcus faecium fermentation product.


....I did this at a glance, Im sure i missed other "wrong" ingredients, but it's almost 2am, and I think what I have is enough to show that yes, there are quite a few things wrong with a "grain free meat based kibble."

I'm alarmed at the number of "product" ingredients in canidae grain free als. Nifty. already overly processed ingredients going in to be processed further!! yayyyy


ETA: my corgi going from his deathbed to romping and playing like a one year old corgi should simply off of cutting carbs out of his diet, no medication, no "treatment" is all the "fact" i need.

Those "meat based" kibles are so overly processed, that while I'm sure some of the ingredients may have qualified to be called "meat" at some point in time.... I'm pretty darn sure the prosessing kills most of the nutrients, and I wouldnt even call the final product meat at all, by a long shot

meat   /mit/ Show Spelled[meet] 
–noun
1.the flesh of animals as used for food


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## rawfeederr (Sep 9, 2009)

RCTRIPLEFRESH5 said:


> although i agree that raw is what a dog should eat.


Then why did you call raw BS??


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## RCTRIPLEFRESH5 (Feb 11, 2010)

so youre basically saying that its raw or no way.
im sure your dogs are healthy, but my dog is healthy as well. hes going on 7, and is just as rambunctious as most puppies. smells like flowers,and is smart as a whip.

he was on science diet as a puppy ,then nutro for a few years then canidae in maybe 2007? and has been on canidae ever since, soon to be on grain free canidae. my dog may not be on raw, but that doesnt mean he isnt as healthy or even healthier than yours!

diet is very important but so are genetics. and i disagree with the raw is the only way approach. high quality kibbles are still good choices for dogs.

dogs arent wild dogs, and some people may want the convenience of feeding kibble.

also the wrong ingredients you highlighted in regional red are pretty low on the label, and they arent necessarily wrong, but more like unecessary.


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## rawfeederr (Sep 9, 2009)

Nope, not what I'm saying at all.

My dog was fed *bad* kibble to up until a few years ago, too. I started feeding healthy when I started studying pet nutrition.



I doubt that in most cases a kibble fed dog would be healthier than a properly raw fed one.

Domestic dogs are the same on the inside as wild ones.


High quality kibble is a good choice, but it's the truth that raw is what _should_ be fed 99.9% of the time.


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## CorgiPaws (Mar 31, 2009)

RCTRIPLEFRESH5 said:


> so youre basically saying that its raw or no way.


No, I never said that. I am saying there is no prefect kibble, there is something wrong with each and every one of them. What you feed your dogs is your business. 



RCTRIPLEFRESH5 said:


> my dog may not be on raw, but that doesnt mean he isnt as healthy or even healthier than yours!


So ust imagine how much healtheir he'd be on a species appropriate diet. :wink: instead of processed omnivore junk.



RCTRIPLEFRESH5 said:


> diet is very important but so are genetics. and i disagree with the raw is the only way approach. high quality kibbles are still good choices for dogs.


You're right. There are many approaches to feeding your dog. There is one natural, species appropriate way. (unless you want to deny that dogs are carnivores, and deny that kibble is processed.)
I wouldn't call feeding a carnivore a processed omnivore diet a "good choice" but to each their own I suppose. 




RCTRIPLEFRESH5 said:


> dogs arent wild dogs, and some people may want the convenience of feeding kibble.


Dogs may look different on the outside, but they are the same inside as they have been for millions of years. The same parts, same digestive system, same nutritional requirements. Kibble has only been around for about fifty years, you can't possibly believe that that's enough time to even BEGIN to change the genetic makeup of a species. 

I put health and nutrition above convenience.. but even so. You scoop kibble, I dump a plastic bag in the grass. 
You might argue that you don't have two hours a month to prepare their food, but IMO someone who doesn't have two hours a month to dedicate to their dog's health, has no business having a dog. (NOTE: don't turn this into a feed raw, or you don't deserve a dog claim. that's NOT what I said.)





RCTRIPLEFRESH5 said:


> also the wrong ingredients you highlighted in regional red are pretty low on the label, and they arent necessarily wrong, but more like unecessary.


That's because it's the best food listed here. 
Notice Canidae's species inappropriate ingredients are all over the place, including in the top 5 ingredients. Good choice! lol.
You might call them unnecessary. I call them wrong because they're the wrong thing to feed a carnivore. Therefore, not right to feed a dog.


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## RawFedDogs (Jun 16, 2008)

RCTRIPLEFRESH5 said:


> diet is very important but so are genetics. and i disagree with the raw is the only way approach. high quality kibbles are still good choices for dogs.


No, they aren't anymore of a good choice for dogs as a diet of pizza, quarterpounders, KFC, and hot dogs are healthy for humans. The humans who live on a diet of this junk food think they are healthy but often are grossly overweight with bad heart, kidneys and other organs and develop cancer more often. Dogs who live a lifetime on highly processed cereal (kibble) with a lot of questionable ingredients also develop more health problem later in life than the dogs fed a proper diet.



> dogs arent wild dogs, and some people may want the convenience of feeding kibble.


Our domestic dogs are exactly the same as wild dogs and the people who decide their dogs diet based on convenience are just too lazy to feed the proper way.



> also the wrong ingredients you highlighted in regional red are pretty low on the label, and they arent necessarily wrong, but more like unecessary.


They are terribly inappropriate to feed a carnivore and have no place in their diet. It doesn't matter how low in the list they are, they are still there and still are harming the dog's health.


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## harrkim120 (Feb 2, 2010)

RawFedDogs said:


> No, they aren't anymore of a good choice for dogs as a diet of pizza, quarterpounders, KFC, and hot dogs are healthy for humans.


 These things aren't healthy??? Why didn't anyone tell me??? 

Haha...sorry, just had to add that. :biggrin:


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## RCTRIPLEFRESH5 (Feb 11, 2010)

rawfeederr said:


> Then why did you call raw BS??


i said''get out of here with your raw bs''

cause you were promoting it in the kibble section.

i think raw is the best way to go, but not the only way.


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