# Credentials



## SuZQuzie

Just curious. 

Everyone says that they won't listen to this person or that professional in the real world because they lack the credentials and haven't done the research. Let's see what the level of expertise on dog nutrition is here at DFC.

What are your credentials?
Who are your mentors?
Why are they valid mentors?
What are your most commonly used sources?
Define what "research" is to you.


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## whiteleo

Owning animals is my resource:tongue:. Having a dog who couldn't digest carbs, and had horrible diarreah for most of her puppyhood. A older cat who has no teeth but was overweight, I thought I was feeding her a pretty good food, but since I switched her to a grainfree "GO Natural" she has lost weight and looks like a young kitten. And my many years in the horse industry where corn was the norm, hot horses where no matter what you did, they couldn't calm down.


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## RawFedDogs

SuZQuzie said:


> What are your credentials?


Over 7 years of feeding a raw diet to both dogs and cats.

I attended 2 canine nutrition college courses

I have attended 3 seminars on raw feeding and one on cannine denistery

I have read books by the real experts in the field such as L. David Mech. a wild wolf researcher w/ 30 years of observing wolves in the wild. Robert Wayne has done many studies on how wolves and dogs are connected through DNA.



> I have studied wolves, their behavior and diet





> I have had discussions both in person and via email with experts in the field of raw feeding and nutrition.





> Who are your mentors?


The main one you would have heard of is Dr. Tom Lonsdale. I have spent hours of one on one discussions with him, attended 2 of his seminars, read 2 of his books on raw feeding and have communicated via email on many occasions.



> Why are they valid mentors?


Tom Lonsdale is one of the pioneers of the present day raw feeding movement. He is a vet with many years in practice and many years of studying the effects of raw feeding on dogs, cats and ferrets.



> What are your most commonly used sources?


Nature. You see ... nature designs all beings to have certain needs and sees to it that those needs are met whether it be diet, environment or anything else. If not, those animals go extinct. Nature says wolves/dogs should eat meat, bones, and organs. Period. Nature go it right and millions of years of evolution prove it. It is man that steps into the picture and ruins things.



> Define what "research" is to you.


Research means doing something and observing the results of that "thing". We do raw feeding research every day. We feed our dogs a raw diet and observe the results. :smile: There are tens of thousands of us doing this research and getting similar results.

Now you could answer your questions for us. :smile:


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## DaneMama

Credentials?

Personally the credentials that most people have in the animal nutrition department mean nothing to me because they are based off of a falsehood.

I have a Bachelor's degree (well almost...only 12 credit hours left til I graduate LOL) with an emphasis in Zoology and a Chemistry minor.

My personal experience is my biggest credential, and that of the hundreds of other case histories that I have heard on this forum as well as others and seen in person.

My mentors would definitely be:
Bill Carnes aka RFD :biggrin: 
Jon Atwood :wink:
Tom Lonsdale

They are all valid mentors to me because they see the truth and are not blinded by misguided research and system, like the majority of the animal nutritionists out there. Most of those "nutritionists" are just trying to formulate a way to feed animals cheap, inappropriate diets that do more harm than good.

Research to me is using my student account at my school to do key word searches in published, peer reviewed publications and text books...AS WELL AS my own search on the internet for things that I think are correct. Not all things written in text books and peer reviewed articles are fact or even slightly correct. That is why I try and make the broadest scan for information from as many different sources as possible.


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## jdatwood

Let's see... my credentials.... Hmm...........

I'm a high school drop out. I have no formal education aside from that except for my A school training in the Navy. I'm a self taught entrepreneur that runs a 6 figure business from the comfort of my couch :biggrin:

When I got my first carnivore, Shiloh, I knew that the ONLY thing she should & would eat was a raw diet. Everyone around me questioned this (some still do) even though I knew in my guts it was the right thing to do.

I've spent countless days on forums, groups, reading books, articles, etc on raw feeding.

Most of all I have my life experience. All 4 of our dogs and our 5lb Kitah are raw fed. They are the epitome of a healthy animal. I know that the only thing I could do better for them would be bringing home whole prey every day (maybe that'll be my goal for next year)

My mentors would definitely be

Bill Carnes (not sure if you've met him before)
Tom Lonsdale (the godfather of raw feeding) :biggrin:
Natalie Sinton (my voice of reason... I'd be lost in life without her)

Like RFD said, I do my research daily when I feed my carnivores. Nothing beats field studies!!

I choose not to be blinded by big business "research" and "marketing". I know my animals are carnivores and feed them as such because doing anything else would be risking their lives simply for someone else's profit

I don't need science to validate what I'm doing is right. I see it in every carnivore I've helped get back to their natural diet.


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## ruckusluvr

nothing, nadda, zip.
i just do what 
the dog food analysis web site tells me to do. 

just being honest here....

BTW- do we not have a spell check feature on the forum? i cant spell or find a spell checker on here.


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## claybuster

SuZQuzie said:


> Just curious.
> 
> Everyone says that they won't listen to this person or that professional in the real world because they lack the credentials and haven't done the research. Let's see what the level of expertise on dog nutrition is here at DFC.
> 
> What are your credentials?
> Who are your mentors?
> Why are they valid mentors?
> What are your most commonly used sources?
> Define what "research" is to you.


I'm not going to comment on any of the first four, but being nobody cares to comment on the last one, I will.

*Define what "research" is to you.*

This won't sit well with a lot of people, I realize it is very upsetting to some, but IMO there is no other option, you must experiment obviously with live animals. Some are going to get sick, some are going to die, but there really is know other way IMO. The PETA folks, ultra libs, the extremely ignorant and rude, etc., will always bitch holler and moan when it comes to this sort of thing, but reality is you have to 'break a few eggs to make an omelet'. The rude and ignorant who only care about themselves and could care less about you or your dog, cry to Kingdom come about animal testing and would rather see untested results be released rather than tested results. In other words your dog would in essence becomes the 'guinea pig', and being they only care about themselves, if your dog dies and thousands of others, too bad. They would rather see thousands of dead dogs due to untested results, as opposed to doing live animal testing sacrificing a much smaller number of dogs (that is where the ignorance and stupidity lies).
Problem is they are blindsided by emotion and fail to see the reality. They see a caged animal awaiting the hypodermic, feel overwhelmingly sorry, and fail to see the big picture this dog being tested could save the lives of hundreds of thousands down the road. The needs of the many in this case outweigh the needs of the few. Part of research IS live animal testing.


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## DaneMama

^^^ I don't think that is what she quite meant when she asked the question. I think she was referring to the research you do yourself to figure out what is best for him to eat. Unless you are one of the people who does clinical tests on animals.

My question in regards to your post is: Why just forget the testing and feed something natural? Why do you have to "test" and probably kill thousands of animals to get dog/cat food right? To me if you have to formulate food to that extent, you are doing the opposite of what is right. I am not saying that testing animals in clinical trials should be stopped altogether, but rather just the animal testing in regards to nutrition.


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## JayJayisme

Credentials? Here's my credentials.

I have a Master's Degree in Business with emphasis in my studies on Marketing Communications and Sociology. Therefore I am uniquely qualified to recognize marketing bullshit when I see it and I can tell you that the pet food industry is brimming with it in their advertising and marketing programs. 

The pet food industry is like the wild west and is virtually unregulated. It's a marketer's paradise. Okay, I know there are some pet food companies that really try hard to produce quality commercially processed pet foods but really, is there anything more revolting than the dog food advertising campaigns from Purina, Iams, Science Diet (Hills) and some of these other, mass-market "pet food" companies? 

The most offensive thing from all of them is the way they perpetuate the notion that canines are omnivores in an attempt to justify the crap (read: cheap) fillers that go into dog food, put money in their bank accounts, and kill dogs (perhaps slowly, but it kills them nonetheless). Don't get me wrong, I am a hard core capitalist and I'm all for companies, big and small, making money. But not at the expense of the health and well being of my dogs (or me for that matter).

As they say, it takes a bullshitter to know a bullshitter and I can run with the best of them, which is precisely why I refuse to buy commercial dog food. BTW, you can run all the studies you want, create all the magic formulas and potions you can dream up, but in the corporate world it's the marketing department that decides what product goes on the shelves, not R&D. So even researchers with the best intentions rarely ever see their most desirable formulas put into production. But the marketing department will put a silver bow on the box, extrapolate some loosely related data from the R&D department, and proclaim the ingredients on the box (bag, whatever) are the end all and be all for every dog owner. It's all smoke and mirrors. But good luck with your studies. :biggrin:


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## RawFedDogs

danemama08 said:


> My question in regards to your post is: Why just forget the testing and feed something natural? Why do you have to "test" and probably kill thousands of animals to get dog/cat food right? To me if you have to formulate food to that extent, you are doing the opposite of what is right. I am not saying that testing animals in clinical trials should be stopped altogether, but rather just the animal testing in regards to nutrition.


Awwwww .... it's just CB stirring the pot. :biggrin:


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## Guest

My credential is that I care enough about my dogs to want them to eat the best I can offer, I care enough to come on this Forum and learn about canine nutrition. Simply being a responsible dog owner who truly cares about what her dogs eat.

It does not matter what degree I have (I do have a college degree and spent several years as a teacher of the deaf, by the way) but the fact that I want the best for my dogs is sufficient credential to be here and learn.


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## malluver1005

Well, I don't have credentials in animal nutrition or whatever you call it. But, I do have an Associate's Degree in Arts and I will complete my certificate for Computer Information Management this May 2010. I do the best that I can for Aspen, and he shows it. I am a very responsible dog owner and I care about my dog's health and well being. I spend many hours on the computer learning about animal nutrition and behavior. I have learned a ton since coming to this wonderful forum...that's it!!

And still learning...


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## CorgiPaws

SuZQuzie said:


> What are your credentials?


Though I did not graduate college, I spent my high school years focusing on Journalism and communications. My junior year and senior years of high school I picked up R.O.P. Marketing courses, and learned the business relatively well. Knowing marketing tricks is half the game when it comes to canine nutrition as most of what's out there is from commercial pet food companies. Even if it isn't printed from the dog food company themselves, it's PAID FOR by he dog food company, and thus you have propoganda without even knowing it. 

Kumpi Dog Food Comparison Chart
This is one of the most bogus dog food webpages I've come across in a while. I could spend hours on the bogus crap on there. 



SuZQuzie said:


> Who are your mentors?


My mentors aren't anything big and fancy. They aren't paid by commercial dog food companies. They are real people, some of which are on this very board 
RFD has had a huge impact on the health of the animals in my house. I very muchso appreciate the experience and information that he, as well as other experienced raw feeders bring to this board. 
Also, Natalie and Jon have brought so many little tips on saving money, preparing meals, etc. that have really helped me in the last two and a half months of raw feeding my dogs.




SuZQuzie said:


> Why are they valid mentors?


Experienced raw feeders are valid mentors to me because rather than running "trials" and getting paid, they simply tell you what does and doesn't work for them. Nutrition has been made into a "science" when it does not need to be... not if it's done as natural as possible. 
To me all the companies and vets who need to do trials and studies are simply trying to see how far away from nature they can get and still keep animals alive, with no regard to actual health or optimal life span. Anyone who throws exact numbers and percentages at me is disregarded as another swallowed up by "the biz" and no experienced raw feeder has yet to do that for me. 
Not to mention their advice saved my Corgi, who is that one special pet that we all come across at some point in time.





SuZQuzie said:


> What are your most commonly used sources?


Experienced feeder's personal experience. It is worth far more to me than any clinical trial or study. 



SuZQuzie said:


> Define what "research" is to you.


*Good research is good observation.*
Clinical trials are done under such unnatural circumstances I feel they lose their credibility.


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## claybuster

danemama08 said:


> ^^^ I don't think that is what she quite meant when she asked the question. I think she was *referring to the research you do yourself *to figure out what is best for him to eat. Unless you are one of the people who does clinical tests on animals.
> 
> My question in regards to your post is: Why just forget the testing and feed *something natural*? Why do you have to "test" and probably kill thousands of animals to get dog/cat food right? To me if you have to formulate food to that extent, you are doing the opposite of what is right. I am not saying that testing animals in clinical trials should be stopped altogether, but rather just the animal testing in regards to nutrition.


In my own research I have concluded PMR diets have sent more dogs to the emergency vet than the diet I choose to feed. My research has also indicated PMR diets have killed more pets than the diet I choose to feed? In fact, the person who started is thread is part of that research. She has had a kitten die from a PMR diet. Anything else you want to know in regards to research I've done myself? 

The second part of your post I really have nothing to say about. If you feel animal testing should stop "in regards to nutrition", all I have to say is you're entitled to your opinion. It's a crap shoot, right? Let's just roll the dice and see what happens when they put products on the shelves. I can't really say I agree with your logic.


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## rannmiller

claybuster said:


> In my own research I have concluded PMR diets have sent more dogs to the emergency vet than the diet I choose to feed. My research has also indicated PMR diets have killed more pets than the diet I choose to feed? In fact, the person who started is thread is part of that research. She has had a kitten die from a PMR diet. Anything else you want to know in regards to research I've done myself?


Since we don't know FOR SURE that the PMR killed the kitten, I guess you can count that as part of your experience with it. I would love more personal examples of your own experience with PMR which supports any of the claims you just made. I know of hundreds of dogs and cats who have been hospitalized and/or killed by a kibble/processed diet. 

I know of several dogs and cats personally who are on a PMR diet and absolutely thriving on it.


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## claybuster

rannmiller said:


> Since we don't know FOR SURE that the PMR killed the kitten, I guess you can count that as part of your experience with it. I would love more personal examples of your own experience with PMR which supports any of the claims you just made. I know of hundreds of dogs and cats who have been hospitalized and/or killed by a kibble/processed diet.
> 
> I know of several dogs and cats personally who are on a PMR diet and absolutely thriving on it.


I know several too doing well on it...but that's about it. lol. Sorry, you're last person I want to see get upset with me, but she did ask me about MY research. I was speaking in general about the big picture of my thoughts on what research means to me, and the next thing you know I've mis-read the sentence according to some and it was really about MY personal research. I'll have to head back to the research center and check my lab notes I guess:biggrin: Until then, I know of a poor kitten passed away whos owner feels it was attributed to PMR, and one trip to the emergency vet coughing up blood and that's just on this one board. I went to the vets office to today for the once every 3 years rabies shot and distemper. The topic of raw came up and the vet mentioned it just about the most stupidest thing he ever heard of...so, if Danemamma still wants to know that is also part of MY research.


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## rannmiller

Haha well no offense but your vet sounds like the stupidest person _I've_ ever heard of! Ok that's a lie, but definitely in the top 50 :biggrin:

I'm just saying, I know of a lot more members on here who have dogs who had chronic diarrhea and weight loss for months on kibble, dogs in renal failure, having seizures, vomiting, excessive shedding, dental issues, etc. who have/had kibble-fed dogs than I've heard of for people with PMR fed dogs. 

And don't worry, I'm not upset with you, we're just having a good old fashioned discussion, it's what the forum is here for!


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## claybuster

rannmiller said:


> Haha well no offense but your vet sounds like the stupidest person _I've_ ever heard of! ...


You should have heard his reasoning (really stupid), but I shook my head like I was interested in what he had to say, and I was, but did not at all agree with his logic. However he is a Vet, a good one, from one of the top Vet Universities so for Danemamas benefit I will include what he had said as part of MY research. Getting back to animal testing and the big picture of 'research', I feel it is vital and absolute necessity. I know my guru injected enough rabbits (and maybe dogs as well; but I've only seen the charts on rabbits) with toxins (sapions). To research what amounts will cause abortions, what amount will cause cardiac arrest, what amount will cause death at what rate of time, etc., etc. All dog food manufacturers must test, unfortunately some dogs are going to be sacrificed, but the 'needs of the many outweigh the needs of a few' in this scenario.

I didn't want to get involved with the first 3-4 items in Suzie's post (too dangerous). But I figured the last one might be safe enough to dabble with; however seeing Danemamma wants to start up with 'why not feed something natural', it seems like a good time to exit.


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## DaneMama

I was commenting on it because you have not included the research you have done personally to conclude what you feed your dog and what you think is best. This does include what you have read about a PMR diet, but considering you don't feed it I think that the research you have done something you feel is better is correct here. 

But I think we all know where you have done ALL of your research 

It just seems silly to sacrifice dogs and cats trying to formulate something that is not necessary, IMHO. We all are entitled to our own opinions.

I know that the number of animals that have been sacrificed for clinical research far outweighs the number of animals that have died for no other reason than the raw meats, bones or organs they ingested. Most of the deaths on a raw diet, is because of ignorance and lack of knowledge, not because of the actual meat items they ingest. 

I know the number of animals that have died because the clinical trials that big dog food companies do fail at supplying life long data. Do you have any idea how long a clinical feeding trial is in the dog food world? Months. Not years (in AAFCO regulations that is...but not all foods are AAFCO approved and have variable feeding trials, if they have ANY at all since there are no laws governing it). How is that anything close to being accurate to what is healthy for dogs/cats?

What about the number of deaths due to recalls on bad dog foods? Lets just take that number of deaths into consideration.


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## GermanSheperdlover

Oh no it's back, what a shame.

I have no credentials but, I do have the ability to read and search the net for answers. I love being able to hold down the left side of mouse and google and research any word or statement made by people. It really helps when tyring to find FACTS about certain ingredients. Boy, I have had some good laughs when people MAKE FALSE STATEMENTS or statements with no factual backing. :biggrin:


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## JayJayisme

Well, I have to say that virtually everything you read about canine nutrition on the 'net or otherwise are "statements with no factual backing". When you have a virtually unregulated industry with millions to be made off of "concerned" pet owners, studies will be paid for and executed by the very companies who stand to benefit the most from the "research". 

I don't believe much of anything I read, especially if it comes out of a specific industry. It has to pass the critical thinking test and it has to make some good old fashioned common sense. For me that happens to be prey model raw, in part because it just makes sense, and in part because no particular company or individual promoting it stands to gain anything from people feeding this diet to their dogs.


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## claybuster

danemama08 said:


> But I think we all know where you have done ALL of your research




7 years worth of feeding the same product no mixing of other feeds, and very pleased with the results. OK, that is my research in regards to what I feed. Now please feel free to belittle, criticize, ridicule, condemn, to your hearts content, for I could really care less about what you think. All that matters to me is I get the results I want, not what you or anyone else thinks about the product I use. Now please stop baiting on trying to get me to discuss nutrition aspects of what choose to feed...it is off the table, not open for discussion. Besides, you have yet to ever disprove ANYTHING they state or claim, all you offer is your opinion of something you never tried. Your opinion is welcome but means absolutely nothing to me.


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## claybuster

JayJayisme said:


> Well, I have to say that virtually everything you read about canine nutrition on the 'net or otherwise are "statements with no factual backing". When you have a virtually unregulated industry with millions to be made off of "concerned" pet owners, studies will be paid for and executed by the very companies who stand to benefit the most from the "research".
> 
> I don't believe much of anything I read, especially if it comes out of a specific industry. It has to pass the critical thinking test and it has to make some good old fashioned common sense. For me that happens to be prey model raw, in part because it just makes sense, and in part because no particular company or individual promoting it stands to gain anything from people feeding this diet to their dogs.


You're opinion is noted. I am of the opinion of what they state is factual.
I also know the company I support was and still is self-funded by the owner and does not have to answer to the stock holders like the multi-national corporations. Bottom line, you either like what they have to offer or you don't. I happen to like the products and find they work well so I will continue to use their products. 7 years of feeding, no complaints. Just curious, who else on this board has consistently without ever changing what they do, feed the same type of diet for 7 years, whether it be PMR, commercial, home-prepared? My research would also indicate, I read all awful lot about people trying something different because it was not yielding the results the were looking for, a few months later onto something else, then again, and again. It is possible RFD and myself are the only ones (here) with a consistent track record of doing the same thing for 7 years. If there is anyone out there feeding the same diet over time for longer than 7 years, I would like to hear about what your feeding and how it is working for you ... as part of my research.


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## jdatwood

claybuster said:


> I could really care less about what you think.


Then why do you continue posting to these threads if our opinions don't matter. 



claybuster said:


> Besides, you have yet to ever disprove ANYTHING they state or claim, all you offer is your opinion of something you never tried. Your opinion is welcome but means absolutely nothing to me.


We're waiting on the proof still. The supposed science behind the miracle claims. It's not for us to DISprove. It's for them to prove... Personally I don't care though. You feed a substandard food from a company I don't trust with a bunch of scientific claims but no published science to back it up. I'm glad it works for you. 


Also, please keep in mind that you're essentially bashing raw feeding a few posts back with NOTHING to back it up. There are FAR MORE health issues caused DAILY by kibble. If every dog was fed a prey model raw diet I would venture to say that Vets would probably lose 60-80% of their daily business.

Dental cleanings would go away. Ear infections would go away. Skin issues would go away. Digestive issues would go away..... 

Vets would have to go back to their roots and provide more emergency services.




claybuster said:


> I also know the company I support was and still is self-funded by the owner


I thought he was dead 




claybuster said:


> 7 years of feeding, no complaints. Just curious, who else on this board has consistently without ever changing what they do, feed the same type of diet for 7 years, whether it be PMR, commercial, home-prepared? My research would also indicate, I read all awful lot about people trying something different because it was not yielding the results the were looking for, a few months later onto something else, then again, and again. It is possible RFD and myself are the only ones (here) with a consistent track record of doing the same thing for 7 years. If there is anyone out there feeding the same diet over time for longer than 7 years, I would like to hear about what your feeding and how it is working for you ... as part of my research.


Wow, you have an obsession with the number 7??? I've been feeding PMR for 3 years now.... but that won't matter to you because my opinion means nothing to you and it hasn't been 7 years 

PMR for 3 years. No change. Never will change. EVERY dog I EVER own for the REST of my LIFE will be fed PMR.


You know what really gets me.... you said you were done discussing dog nutrition because nobody cared about what you had to say yet HERE YOU ARE stirring the pot again trying in every way possible to take jabs at people on here, bash raw, spread more misinformation. What's your agenda CB? I'm really starting to question your motives yet again


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## GermanSheperdlover

LOL, this guy really is a joke, just a salesman with not one fact to back up his typed words. I've always wondered if his second job was a used car salesman. Maybe thats his first job and and being a dog food salesman is his second job.


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## claybuster

jdatwood said:


> PMR for 3 years. No change. Never will change. EVERY dog I EVER own for the REST of my LIFE will be fed PMR.





I feel the same way you do in regards to what I am doing with my feeding. My current dogs and any future dogs will be fed the same diet. Casey is 18 this year. The breed has a life expectancy of 12-15 (and you people look for proof...lol, the proof is in the dogs. I'm 47. At that rate, sad but true, if they all live as long as this little guy has done, I only have 1.5 dogs left in my lifetime. I think my next dog will be either one of three choices, a GSD, a Doberman, or maybe a Bouvier.

My Setter has a life expectancy of 10-12. If PMR is good enough to increase life expectancy, how confident are you PMR folks that your dog will exceed it's life expectancy? Now there is some good research for you all. I have one dog now 3 years beyond maximum life expectancy. The way my Setter is going, lean and mean, looking good, she’s going beyond her life expectancy as well, I can all but guarantee it pending any tragic events like getting hit by a car or something. I’d put some money on that. How about those Great Danes? Are they going to exceed life expectancy on PMR? My research indicates the average life is under 10 years, but some have been know to go 12-13. Great Dane Information and Pictures, Great Danes

What do you think JD, you confident your dog(s) are going 3 years beyond the average of 10? If some go to 12-13 then split the difference and call the max life expectancy 11. Your dogs going 3 years beyond max to 14? How much you wanna lose…lol. I got a $1000 my dog makes it to 15, 3 years beyond max…any takers…and you know me, I won’t be feeding anything else than what I’m doing now…no need to, got the proof in my other dog already.

Suzie, I am so sorry this thread went in this direction, but there is some decent research here in regards to nutrition and life expectancy. My dog is on the research table. Zoe is 7 so I’ll check back in a 2017 and show you all some pics.


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## claybuster

GermanSheperdlover said:


> LOL, this guy really is a joke, just a salesman with not one fact to back up his typed words. I've always wondered if his second job was a used car salesman. Maybe thats his first job and and being a dog food salesman is his second job.


I wonder if dandelions and marigold flowers will help dogs exceed their life expectancy?

Where are the facts people backing up what any dog food manufacturer states or claims? Why would anyone believe what Champion foods states or 
Natura foods? Why believe one over the over? Because of popularity and a lot of people discuss it? Just follow along with crowd? Where's the proof EVO is a great food? Where is the proof Orijen is a great food? Where's the facts backing up what say? hmmmm? These food are judged strickly by popularity and which company markets better than the other, that's about it.
Everything else is fiction, lies and no proof backing up their products...right.
It's very easy to say that....ahhh just fiction and lies, nothing factual to back it up...where's the proof?


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## jdatwood

claybuster said:


> What do you think JD, you confident your dog(s) are going 3 years beyond the average of 10? If some go to 12-13 then split the difference and call the max life expectancy 11. Your dogs going 3 years beyond max to 14? How much you wanna lose…lol. I got a $1000 my dog makes it to 15, 3 years beyond max…any takers…and you know me, I won’t be feeding anything else than what I’m doing now…no need to, got the proof in my other dog already.


I'm bored with you dude. You've become laughable. There are dogs that live past their "life expectancy" being fed Pedigree or Science Diet. 

Am I confident my dogs are in optimal health? YES. Do I feel they could be in better health? Probably not... certainly not being fed a diet of white rice

That's no proof. What I'm asking for is the proof of the outlandish health claims made by your... umm... cult leader

If claims like that were made in the HUMAN marketplace there would need to be proof. Unfortunately there isn't any needed for the dog food industry is there now?



claybuster said:


> Suzie, I am so sorry this thread went in this direction, but there is some decent research here in regards to nutrition and life expectancy. My dog is on the research table. Zoe is 7 so I’ll check back in a 2017 and show you all some pics.


Don't be sorry. She posted this thread to stir the pot in the first place. She got exactly what she was after. She sucked you BACK into posting about pet nutrition even though you swore you were done for years... that you'd lost your passion for it. :wink:

She hasn't even been bothered to answer her own questions 




claybuster said:


> I wonder if dandelions and marigold flowers will help dogs exceed their life expectancy?


You know what I REALLY love... you're back to your old routine... "dandelions and marigold..." I mean seriously, is that all you've got?

Marigold flowers, dandelions, saw dust, white rice... NONE of these things are biologically appropriate for a carnivore.



claybuster said:


> Where are the facts people backing up what any dog food manufacturer states or claims?


EXACTLY!!!!!! That's what we've been saying all along. I'm glad you've seen the light now. Where ARE the facts backing up the claims that Abady makes regarding things like curing hip displaysia and bloat??



claybuster said:


> These food are judged strickly by popularity and which company markets better than the other, that's about it.


I'd have to disagree. From what I've seen they're judged based on their ingredients, not because of a popularity contest or who has the largest marketing war chest. You might try harder... you're losing your touch




claybuster said:


> Everything else is fiction, lies and no proof backing up their products...right.
> It's very easy to say that....ahhh just fiction and lies, nothing factual to back it up...where's the proof?


Again, EXACTLY. Where IS the proof CB? None of the food you're bashing make outlandish claims like "curing hip displaysia" or "curing bloat". What do they need to prove? They just claim to make a good kibble....

It's a tired argument CB....


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## GermanSheperdlover

JUST REMEMBER IF YOU FEED YOUR DOG A DIET OF *LARD, PORK FAT*, *CHICKEN FAT AND FISH FAT *AND NOTHING MORE . YOUR DOG CAN LIVE A LONG LIFE JUST LIKE THOSE ON PURNIA.

Some people just can't figure out the dfference between whats good and whats not!!!!! Some people are just down right jealous of those that are something they can never be AND THIS INCLUDES DOG FOODS.



I feed my dog only the ""best""! WHY? Because I can afford it....


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## GermanSheperdlover

claybuster said:


> I wonder if dandelions and marigold flowers will help dogs exceed their life expectancy?
> 
> Where are the facts people backing up what any dog food manufacturer states or claims? Why would anyone believe what Champion foods states or
> Natura foods? Why believe one over the over? Because of popularity and a lot of people discuss it? Just follow along with crowd? Where's the proof EVO is a great food? Where is the proof Orijen is a great food? Where's the facts backing up what say? hmmmm? These food are judged strickly by popularity and which company markets better than the other, that's about it.
> Everything else is fiction, lies and no proof backing up their products...right.
> It's very easy to say that....ahhh just fiction and lies, nothing factual to back it up...where's the proof?[/QUOTE
> 
> LET ME TELL YA RIGHT OFF THE BAT I DO NOT FOLLOW ANY CROWD AND I MAKE UP MY MIND BASED ON FACTS AND NOT SOME SALESMAN QUOTING A LIEING WEBSITE.
> 
> Let me see if I have this correct their are TEN, count them TEN meat ingredients ALONG with fresh whole eggs in the first several ingredients in this food. And you think all thats in this product is dandelion and marigold flowers? Marigold flowers and dandelion are a MINOR food in this product. ANNNND after reseaching through the internet, I have no problem with marigold flowers and dandelion being a minor food ingredient. It's WAAAY better than PORK FAT, LARD, AND FISH FAT!!!!!
> 
> THIS IS PROOF ENOUGH FOR ME...PROVE TO ME YOUR PORK FAT, LARD, AND FISH FAT food with NO MEAT AND A POISIOUS FISH IS A HEALTHY DIET FOR A DOG...
> 
> Fresh deboned wild boar, fresh deboned lamb, lamb meal, russet potato, fresh deboned pork, peas, salmon meal, whitefish meal*, herring meal, fresh deboned bison, fresh whole eggs, potato starch, fresh deboned salmon (a natural source of DHA and EPA), alfalfa, sweet potato, fresh deboned walleye, salmon oil (naturally preserved with vitamin E), pea fiber, psyllium, pumpkin, tomatoes, carrots, apples, cranberries, Saskatoon berries, black currants, chicory root, licorice root, angelica root, fenugreek, marigold flowers, sweet fennel, peppermint leaf, chamomile flowers, dandelion, summer savory, rosemary, organic kelp, vitamin A, vitamin D3, vitamin E, niacin, zinc proteinate, thiamine mononitrate, riboflavin, vitamin B5, iron proteinate, vitamin B6, manganese proteinate, copper proteinate, folic acid, biotin, vitamin B12, selenium, dried Lactobacillus acidophilus product, dried Enterococcus faecium fermentation product.
> 
> By the way I have researched every food in this product and this product is the best food you can by today(kibble).


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## claybuster

GermanSheperdlover said:


> marigold flowers and dandelion being a minor food ingredient. It's WAAAY better than PORK FAT, LARD, AND FISH FAT!!!!!


Okey dokey. Thanks for your insight.


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## claybuster

GermanSheperdlover said:


> Some people just can't figure out the dfference between whats good and whats not!!!!! Some people are just down right jealous of those that are something they can never be AND THIS INCLUDES DOG FOODS.
> 
> I feed my dog only the ""best""! WHY? Because I can afford it....



Comical.

In all honesty I have no idea what Orijen cost per pound. I will tell you what I am paying though as of late, $65 for 35-lbs (Basic) and that is a very decent price. I know of some charging a bit more for the same box. NYC Pet Supply has that same box for $76.65. 2.19 per pound at the NYC price.

Wanna bump it up a notch to more powerful formula? How about a 35-box of Maintenance and Stress for $83. Want more power? How about State of the Art High Stress and Competition Formula 35-lbs for $94.

I can very easily afford to feed my dogs ANY of those formulas at the NYC Pet Supply prices. I choose Basic because I feel it works well for my dogs.

I know you don't understand this, but the cost is relative. The $94 box will last more much longer than the $76.65 box (despite both being 35-lb boxes) BECAUSE, they consume less product every time you bump it up to a higher level of protein, and the feeding tables would indicate those lesser amounts needed as well. So, yea I can easily afford to feed any of those boxes at the NYC prices, and there is no need to bring what YOU can afford into discussion because you look even MORE FOOLISH and immature. You do that easily enough by telling us all lawn weeds and flowering plants is better than pork fat and fish fat.


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## claybuster

GermanSheperdlover said:


> By the way I have researched every food in this product and this product is the best food you can by today(kibble).


Mickey Mouse research leads to Mickey Mouse results. Dog Food Analysis has to IMO the absolute worst source of information available regurgitating industry rhetoric and silly AAFCO statements, 100% complete backing of omnivore nutrition. If they said over there the sky is falling the mentality of the people using that site would probably believe that to be true. Food critics who never tried products and when people take what is said for granted off of sites like that is the perfect example of 'the blind leading the blind'.



> Let me see if I have this correct their are TEN, count them TEN meat ingredients ALONG with fresh whole eggs in the first several ingredients in this food.


You can have 167 different named sources, it does not matter. It is what it is, out numbered by at least 2-1 with veg, fruits, and plants. I'm glad your happy with it and it works for your dogs but I for one would never feed it to my pets even if given a free bag.




> I feed my dog only the ""best""! WHY? Because I can afford it....


The reality is you are the one fallen victim to crafty marketing and slick advertising (it shows by you're convinced lawn weeds and plants are a good thing for dogs). Hate to burst your bubble, but do your homework and research the cost of kibble diets from the company I support. They are much more expensive with good reason (higher meat and fat content from just a few sources as opposed to a ton a plant matter, veg and fruits). You can believe one thing off Orijen and that is the calorie distribution where you will find the relationship between the protein core of the food and what is coming from animal source or something other than animal source. When you can understand that, then you can understand why kibbles from the company I support are more expensive because cost is in the animal source protein content and fats...not the weeds and flowers. 20 pounds of kibble from Abady will cost you a lot more than 20 pounds of kibble from Champion. Do your homework kiddo before you start shooting your mouth off about money and what you can afford, because nobody here is impressed by that sort of talk.


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## Guest

Doesn't anyone find it really odd and annoying that the person who started this thread never came back on, and never offered any info about her own credentials? Nobody really needs any credentials to come on the Forum, they just need a sense of compassion and concern for their pets and a willingness to learn, explore, and share what they have experienced.


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## RawFedDogs

Yes, I noticed that but I'm not surprised. :smile:


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## DaneMama

I am not surprised either. The fact that no one on here cares about misguided credientials is apparent. I don't think she got the response she was hoping for, but I was wanting her to come back in and at least give us what she thinks is important...just like us all, we are entitled to our opinions (which really ARE factually based :biggrin: )

Actually I'm surprised that she posted the thread up in the first place...since she doesn't like the whole debate thing that goes on between raw feeders and kibble feeders.


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## malluver1005

This is turning into one of those "why is this kibble better than that kibble" arguments...sheesh


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## CorgiPaws

malluver1005 said:


> This is turning into one of those "why is this kibble better than that kibble" arguments...sheesh


Almost every thread turns into this kibble vs. that kibble or raw vs. commercial pet food. 
It's the way it goes.


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## wags

Credentials? I didnt know you actually needed any to be able to distinguish a good food from a bad food! Simple common knowledge applies to that!:wink:

I knew this couldn't be a complete discussion without silly arguments going on UGH!!!!!!!! Only takes one person to have a go at it! UGH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## GermanSheperdlover

I aplogize to everyone on this board. The only exception would be clay.

I NOW fully realize that with some people THEIR REALLY IS NO HOPE. To bad mouth (mickey mouse) reseach, that is totally factual still seems odd to me. But I guess when you actually believe a dog food can solve hip dysphasia and bloat their really is no Hope. This is the last post I will make in regaurds to this hopeless situation. I was going to comment on the posts, but I already realize everyone feels pretty much the way I do. It's like the old saying "where the majority of the fisherman are, are where the fish really are". Ya know it is one thing to tell a joke, but it is another to be the joke.


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## SuZQuzie

I was told that my answers were wanted. Sorry for the wait. I was busy with things other than the internet. Not really sure why I am being attacked, though? 



SuZQuzie said:


> What are your credentials?


I am working simultaneously on my BA in Animal Science and my MA in Animal Nutrition. I have participated in the conduction of numerous feed studies on several species including cats, dogs, mice, box turtles, horses, and cattle. I have attended a seminar on companion animal nutrition at UC Davis and two equine nutrition conventions. I worked as a "junior vet tech" at a vet's office through high school where the vet fed raw, hence why I started feeding raw initially. More recently I have worked under an equine vet and an Olympic rider. I have also attended many other animal seminars on subjects ranging from feline genetics to bovine behavior to zoo management. I am also a member of the American Society of Animal Science and a UC Davis Certified Hay Sampler.



> Who are your mentors?


Dr. K. Martin, DVM - A companion animal vet.
*Dr. L.Werner, DVM - An equine vet.
*Dr. M. Edwards, PhD - A comparative animal nutritionist, former head nutritionist at the San Diego Zoo and still a consultant for them
Dr. L. A.Pettey, PhD - A nonruminant nutritionist, primarily swine
*Dr. J. Pettey, PhD - A nonruminant nutritionist, primarily companion animals

* denotes someone I work with on a daily basis.



> Why are they valid mentors?


They are people who have numerous published papers in a variety of journals and have experience both in laboratory settings and in "real life" settings. 



> What are your most commonly used sources?


PubMed, Biosis, AACOP, the NRC publications, and a variety of textbooks.



> Define what "research" is to you.


Not google.  I love my scientific papers and steer away from popular papers. Research is being able to view a variety of sources and use critical thinking to come up with a conclusion that meets or explains the results. 


Thanks for the good times, but I don't know how often I'll be here anymore. It is just not the community I was looking for.


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## GermanSheperdlover

*Hey SuZQuzie
I enjoy your posts you seem to be well educated in this field. Some of us take what you say and use it the way it should be. Like I said I got lulled into an arguement that almost every poster here has been in at one time or another and I am sorry for letting that happen. Keep posting I for one can use any information I can get.:wink:*


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## iiVI

*My $.02*

_Define what "research" is to you._

To me, it is definition number 2 (see below). Definitions 1 and 3 are what I do as background for research (I work in Pharmaceutical R&D).

1 : careful or diligent search
*2 : studious inquiry or examination; especially : investigation or experimentation aimed at the discovery and interpretation of facts, revision of accepted theories or laws in the light of new facts, or practical application of such new or revised theories or laws*
3 : the collecting of information about a particular subject 

Interesting questions. I am new to this forum and I find some of the "tone" discussion somewhat strange. 

The fact that there exists a place to discuss "dog food" is an amazing testiment to the internet. I assume most folks to take the time to sign-up, read and participate in a cyber-community such as this _must love their dogs dearly and care enough abvout other people's dogs to share_. We may all come to different conclusions based on data (whether that is a peer reviewed publication or one's own emperical experience), but we all make decisions because we feel that it is best for our dogs. 

We speak up and advise others sometimes as to why we think what we think. Others may disagree (hopefully, with civility and respect) and present alternative points of view. I am getting the sense from the tone of some of the posts that some threads really just become attack threads. When that happens the discussion stops, people take sides and things may not get discussed because no one wants to stick their hand into a "dog fight".

My $.02



Bob


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## Orange

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## steve

This is sad. There is definitely a correlation between the arguing and the lack of new posters that stay here. 

Thanks for the read, but i too will be looking elsewhere a little more friendly and not so confrontational to post. The knowledge here is skewed, but good. It would be nice to have a little more constructive discussions.

Thank you


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