# Poor hair condition since i started feeding BARF to my 4 dogs...



## kimouette (May 2, 2012)

It's been couple of weeks now since i've noticed the hair condition of my dog is not getting any better. All 4 dogs have dry hair not soft like it used to.
I read on the net that it could possibly be related to a lack of vitamin D, iodine, or fatty acids.

It's true, I haven't given any vitamin D supplements to my dog, but I'm not sure either about the iodine and fatty acids amounts....

Here's a normal week menu

RMB are chicken necks and backs
Meat is either chicken, beef or horse + sardines once a week
Offal are beef liver, chicken liver or gizzard or beef kidney
I also add 2 tablespoon of mixed vegetable once a day
One egg with shell once a week
A tiny supplement of vitamin E et Kelp
and that's about it.

I guess I have to supplement Vitamin D to eliminate that possibility. 
Fatty acids, well, I thought by giving an entire meal of sardines once a week it was enough fatty acids for a dog, or am I wrong? 
And iodine is a delicate issue.. like I said I give kelp supplements, but I am so afraid of giving too much (which could cause thyroid gland issues) that I might not have been giving enough.

Or maybe all 3 possibilities are completely out of the subject and something else is causing that poor hair condition to my dogs?

Any help would be greatly appreciated!
Kim


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## naturalfeddogs (Jan 6, 2011)

First, two weeks is still new into raw so there is a chance there is still some detoxing going on.

Second, most here feed PMR because it is more species appropriate than BARF. All dogs need to cover all nutritional bases is raw meat,bones and organs. Thats it. BARF adds a lot of unnecesary ingredients like veggies, fruits and other stuff that dogs can't even digest well enough to make a difference to their bodies. It's only been two weeks, and your dog isn't quite ready for red meats. Organs aren't introduced for at least two to three months after starting. 

I probably wouldn't hurt to add some fish oil to the diet. That should really be the only supplement you should have to use, most of us do. Otherwise, if you feed only raw meat, bones and organs in variety you are getting all you need and no supplements are needed.


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## barneysmom2510 (Oct 12, 2011)

When I started feeding one of my dachshunds she had a rough detox. Her hair was was thin, oily she even got a bad hot spot. Before raw she would lick herself raw and have bald spots. Very quickly it turned around. Now her coat is thick and beautiful and she never licks herself anymore. It gets worse sometimes before it gets better but believe me it gets better. I personally never added any supplements so I don't know if they would help.


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## Boxers&Pom's Mom (Jan 17, 2011)

It took my dogs few months, for me start seeing the results of raw feeding. I think you are doing it the right way. Just be patience.


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## Liz (Sep 27, 2010)

When you first start you are really feeding a very lean diet as you increase variety you will be increasing fats and their coat will soften and shine and their skin will improve also. Pork will help when he is ready, and some dogs need even more fat. My collies get extra fat when I have very lean meats for them due to their long coats. We only feed meat, bone and organ.


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## Roo (Oct 17, 2010)

If you're feeding fatty fish/fish oil, beef liver, and egg yoke, you're giving foods with fairly high amounts of vitamin D. I agree with Naturalfeddogs I would supplement with a good quality fish oil and consider also possibly adding a couple spoonfuls of coconut oil weekly to help with the coat condition. Also adding a little more raw fat, as Liz suggested as the dog adjusts more to the diet and you feed more variety of meats with a higher fat content should help with the coat condition too.

While "detox" per say isn't scientifically proven one way or another, when a significant change in diet is made, there is going to be changes to the body positive or negative overtime, this has been proven. I've had a vet nutritionist tell me it can take up to 1.5-2 months for a dog to fully adjust to a different brand of kibble (including reflective changes in coat, skin etc.), so imagine the possible time it could take for a dog to adjust to a diet change even more different. 

From personal experience, one of my dogs (my 9yr beagle mix) experienced weird cycles of dandruff, and dry/dull coat even after 4 months into raw, I was beginning to doubt the switch and was upset because so many other raw fed dogs had these gorgeous coats. At around 5-6 months on raw, his coat condition changed again, the weird cycles stopped and his coat became very soft and super shiny, more so than when he was on the considered higher quality kibbles, and has remained so ever since (no changes were made to the diet that would reflect the sudden change except longer time on the diet), his body may have just still been adjusting. Not all changes from diet can be seen or experienced immediately, diet is not like a drug that can be a quick fix, it can take time.


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## BeagleCountry (Jan 20, 2012)

The general guide for Prey model Raw is 80% muscle meat, 10% bone, 5% liver, 5% other organs. This is based on 2-4% of the ideal weight of your dog. For raw feeding gizzards are considered a muscle meat, not an organ. They are not overly nutritious so do not make them a large part of the meat portion. Beef heart is one of the most nutritious meats that can be fed. 

For BARF include a larger variety of vegetables such as greens, kale, broccoli, carrots, almost anything you find in the vegetable section of the store. If your dog has a thyroid problem limit cruciferous vegetables. They are also known to cause gas. Dogs have no natural need for vegetables. They must be pre-processed for them to be digested. This can be done in a food processor or by lightly cooking. Pour all liquid into the bowl to maintain the nutrients. This is referred to as veggie slop.

With BARF or PMR variety is needed. Do not feed just beef shoulder or chicken legs. Feed other parts of the animal. Try to get more variety such as venison, pork and rabbit. You may need to increase the overall fat content of the meals. Adding some extra beef or pork fat works. Salmon is needed for the omega 3's. Some people add coconut oil.

Organs are the multi-vitatmin mineral supplement of raw feeding. Be certain you are feeding enough.

Below is a link to find the nutrients is all foods. For raw meat start with the word " raw", such as raw beef heart.
NDL/FNIC Food Composition Database Home Page

Some links on raw feeding.
Dedicated to proper carnivore nutrition - Prey Model Raw Feeding for Dogs & Cats
http://puppybutt.weebly.com/uploads/7/6/9/2/7692088/beginners_guide_to_prey_model_raw_rv.4.1.pdf

ETA: I fed BARF for several years. Then, back to kibble. I have been feeding PMR for the past few years. PMR is easier without all the vegetables to prepare and is much more natural as it is a species appropriate diet.

Be sure to include the blood when feeding either BARF or PMR as it contains valuable nutrients.


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## woganvonderweidenstrasse (Nov 22, 2012)

I also wouldn't supplement with anything other than fish oil. It's to easy to over supplement on some things. With Logan I notice a clear difference in his coat (less shiny) when I run out of fish oil for a few days. The only days I don't supplement with fish oil are the days he gets fish to eat.


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## Felix (Oct 9, 2012)

Yup, I would supplement with fish oil daily. When I was feeding PMR, He would get fish oil over top of his evening meal.


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## woganvonderweidenstrasse (Nov 22, 2012)

Felix said:


> Yup, I would supplement with fish oil daily. When I was feeding PMR, He would get fish oil over top of his evening meal.


Why did you stop feeding PMR?


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## Felix (Oct 9, 2012)

woganvonderweidenstrasse said:


> Why did you stop feeding PMR?


He started vomiting every meal on it. And I just don't have the freezer space as I live in a small apartment. I would definitely go back though, it was a fun experience.


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## monster'sdad (Jul 29, 2012)

kimouette said:


> It's been couple of weeks now since i've noticed the hair condition of my dog is not getting any better. All 4 dogs have dry hair not soft like it used to.
> I read on the net that it could possibly be related to a lack of vitamin D, iodine, or fatty acids.
> 
> It's true, I haven't given any vitamin D supplements to my dog, but I'm not sure either about the iodine and fatty acids amounts....
> ...


Two weeks is not long enough to judge a diet's impact on skin and coat, whether good or bad. Feeding trials usually go for 3 - 9 months and include objective measures to judge a die'ts performance.

I wouldn't supplement fat just by dumping fish oil in the bowl. Fat balance is critical for skin and coat quality. Use a balanced Omega 9,6,3 product from both plant and animal sources. 

Also, keep in mind that terms like "Prey Model Raw" and "de-toxing" mean nothing in the world of science or husbandry. Wolves and other wild canines are fed dry dog food in captivity and do quite well, living long, happy lives.

Give your dog what it needs on a consistent and deliverable basis without regard to fashion.

If it is a raw diet great, but if it proves inadequate there is no reason to hold the dog hostage and guess on suplementation due to peer pressure or made up science.


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## Roo (Oct 17, 2010)

> I wouldn't supplement fat just by dumping fish oil in the bowl. Fat balance is critical for skin and coat quality. Use a balanced Omega 9,6,3 product from both plant and animal sources.


I would think using a 9,6,3 product would create less of a balance because you're not including the amounts of omega 6 fed in the diet already.


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## monster'sdad (Jul 29, 2012)

Roo said:


> I would think using a 9,6,3 product would create less of a balance because you're not including the amounts of omega 6 fed in the diet already.


I don't.... 

Adding fish oil and other vitamins is just quess work. If someone showed me the calculation on paper I might change my mind but raw diets tend to be much lower in Omega 6, especially ones with beef, lamb, and white meat chicken and turkey meat, than kibble. True, Chicken Fat is high in Omega 6 but that is the fat taken from the skin, not found in the meat. This is the higher Omega 6 fat that is used in dry food.

Since everyone is just guessing day to day, adding a balanced product consistenly makes the most sense. 

I don't add any fat to the kibble I use. If I need to use more fat I would just choose a richer food. I don't have the time nor the interest to calculate fat ratios. People do that for me.


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## naturalfeddogs (Jan 6, 2011)

monster'sdad said:


> I don't....
> 
> Adding fish oil and other vitamins is just quess work. If someone showed me the calculation on paper I might change my mind but raw diets tend to be much lower in Omega 6, especially ones with beef, lamb, and white meat chicken and turkey meat, than kibble. True, Chicken Fat is high in Omega 6 but that is the fat taken from the skin, not found in the meat. This is the higher Omega 6 fat that is used in dry food.
> 
> ...



Most raw feeders feed raw, because we have the time, or make the time. We also have 100% intrest and love for for feeding this way. That's why we do, and you don't. If you don't, you won't ever feed raw successfuly.


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## Roo (Oct 17, 2010)

> I don't....
> 
> Adding fish oil and other vitamins is just quess work. If someone showed me the calculation on paper I might change my mind but raw diets tend to be much lower in Omega 6, especially ones with beef, lamb, and white meat chicken and turkey meat, than kibble. True, Chicken Fat is high in Omega 6 but that is the fat taken from the skin, not found in the meat. This is the higher Omega 6 fat that is used in dry food.
> 
> ...


Which is why, with all due respect monster, maybe it isn't the best idea for you to try to give nutrient advice on this type of diet.


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## naturalfeddogs (Jan 6, 2011)

In fact, this IS the raw section so let's just not feed the trolls and go on with our normal conversations.


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## meggels (May 30, 2010)

I've been feeding Murph a little green tripe with his meals, it seems to keep the little extra weight on him and of course, he loves it. Makes ME want to barf though


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## Herzo (Feb 5, 2011)

I feed it too, but I am a puss so I feed canned, it's still gross though.


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## Sprocket (Oct 4, 2011)

I feed it steaming hot fresh from the goat  All the dogs slurp it up.


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## kimouette (May 2, 2012)

Thanks for all the replies!
I will definately try to give more fatty meat (the current one is pretty lean) and add omega 3 and 6 to their diet.

I made a typing mistake in My first post... Sorry about that it made everything pretty confusing!
My dogs have been eating Barf for several months now (not weeks like I said)!
So the poor hair condition definately is a result of their new raw food diet.

I also forgot to mention that the small portion of vegetables that I feed is all mixed in a mixer so like a purée texture.
No problem with their stool ever since they started to eat Barf. 

Except for that hair problem I really do notice a better general health condition (lost weight-which was my first goal, no more stinky breath and stinky stool, more energie ect...) but their hair definately looks bad


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## jerrypardue (Jan 4, 2013)

Based on what you have said there are two considerations. One is that many of those ingredients lack an adequate vitamin mineral profile that is adequate for your dog's lifestyle and that may be reflected in the quality of the hair coat. The other thing is that adding one or two vitamin supplements is usually not adequate unless you have evidence that those specific vitamins are insufficient. You may need a broad spectrum of vitamin supplementation because all are valuable and effective in total metabolism. Also, minerals are important because they affect every metabolic function that goes on in a dog. Minerals in many forms are also very hard to digest and when you combine low inclusion rates with low digestibility rates, you often have a problem. Further complicating that problem is that minerals work in combination with other minerals. For example, copper, important in reproduction, vitamin assimilation, immune system response, and hair coat quality can become tied up because of excessive protein and high iron levels. The effective way to manage around that is to use an organic mineral supplements or a chelated mineral supplement. These complex minerals bridge the antagonistic relationship between minerals which demands certain ratios of digestible nutrients because they go into the bloodstream of dogs in much higher levels and meet or exceed those minimums that are often found listed on dog food products.


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## Sprocket (Oct 4, 2011)

How many is "several months"?


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## CorgiPaws (Mar 31, 2009)

Kimouette-
I think what you will find on this forum is that there is a lack of BARF feeders to weigh in because most people that are willing to feed a home-prepared diet that come here end up going the PMR route. That is what a vast majority of the raw feeders on this forum feed for several reasons, and if you want more information on that, you'll definitely find it here. 
That said, feeding real, whole foods will ALWAYS be what's best for any living creature, so long as it's done properly. With BARF and the inclusion of plant matter it is difficult because you are starting with ingredients (fruits and veggies) that in and of themselves are not biologically available to canines in their raw form, and having to process them (via cooking/ puree) to make what nutrients they do hold as available as possible. It's a game of balance, and it's not easy to know what nutrients are destroyed by cooking. 
I don't know of *any* BARF feeders that successfully feed the diet over an extended period of time without regularly using vitamin supplements. NuVet is popular, but there are also others. Feeding a home prepared diet doesn't need to be complicated, and can yield great results. 

All of that aside, a couple months isn't even always enough time for a superior diet to give results. I saw improvements in my dogs nearly a year after making the switch, and see improvements every time we tweak their diet for the better. I have seen a lot of newly transitioned dogs look dull, dingy, and flaky, whether it is symptoms of detox, or simply the fact the beginning stages consist of a fairly lean diet lacking in fat content, I'm not sure.


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## Unosmom (May 3, 2009)

I would add more eggs (2-3 a week) plus fish oil


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## kimouette (May 2, 2012)

My dogs have been eating raw meat since the beginning of last June (about 7 months ago).

I know that most people here are feeding raw meat and bones ONLY, but there's no way my dogs are sick because of the 2 tablespoon of raw vegetables they are getting! I can understand why some of you aren't giving any (even though I dont share the same opinion), but telling someone that her dog is going sick because of that does't make much sens to me... unless there's diarrhea or something related to the digestion of those veggies. And particularly in my case, where my dogs are LACKING something, I dont see how it could be related to getting a little extra vitamins though vegetables!

I will add more fatty meat, eggs (3 eggs instead of one every week), and make sure to evaluate the omega 3,6, and 9 they are getting to supplement the missing fatty acids, and add vitamin D and we'll see if they get any better within couple of months...

??? About vitamin D though... I was wondering what is the minimum/maximum requirement
I found many answers but all are based on pounds of food (dry matter basis), which doesn't help me at all!
Anyone knows how many IU of Vitamin D per pound of dog weight they should be getting (minimum and maximum)?
And Is D3 more appropriate than D?

??? I read somewhere that fat doesn't necessarily make our dogs fatter, but instead, give them more energy, is that true? I mean, if I want them to lose a little weight but still want to add fat and fatty acids, will I have to lower their daily ration of food to compensate for the extra fat?


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## Sheltielover25 (Jan 18, 2011)

kimouette said:


> My dogs have been eating raw meat since the beginning of last June (about 7 months ago).
> 
> I know that most people here are feeding raw meat and bones ONLY, but there's no way my dogs are sick because of the 2 tablespoon of raw vegetables they are getting! I can understand why some of you aren't giving any (even though I dont share the same opinion), but telling someone that her dog is going sick because of that does't make much sens to me... unless there's diarrhea or something related to the digestion of those veggies. And particularly in my case, where my dogs are LACKING something, I dont see how it could be related to getting a little extra vitamins though vegetables!
> 
> ...


To be fair, I don't think she was saying the veggies in and of themselves are causing the problem but more that it's harder to pinpoint the problem the more stuff you're adding and also like she mentioned it's a guessing game as to how many of the nutrients they're really getting from said veggies/fruits. I'm not against feeding veggies/fruits but for this reason alone I chose not too. I think it complicates things too much. 

Are you feeding factory-farmed meat? I need to look back and see if you said it, but if not, what's the majority of meat this dog is being fed and where is it sourced from? Contrary to some beliefs, it does matter what the animal you're feeding was fed. A grain-fed animal can cause issues for someone who is allergic to grains. Same with a soy-fed animal and issues for those with soy intolerance.

Okay. I read back over what you're feeding and the variety seems good. A lot of times if chicken is your main source, factory-farmed chicken, it's possible to have a vitamin D deficiency due to the chickens never having access to daylight and the same applies to pork. But horses and cows definitely get sun so I doubt it's vitamin D. 

You might try going to websites like nutritional data and putting in what you feed and then seeing what's missing. You could add in cod liver oil but you have to be careful due to the vitamin A so you'd only need to add a tiny bit once a week. If you feel dogs need veggies and such, can you find tripe? That's really the only reason I can think of to justify, the fact being they eat the stomach which sometimes has grass, but then again mine instinctively shake their tripe to get any grass out so you might be surprised when you see that they don't want anything to do with anything but the meat.


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## naturalfeddogs (Jan 6, 2011)

What we are saying about the whole veggie thing, is that there isn't enough in them that a dog can actually use. So, the veggies could be causing a deficiency in certain vitamins. Raw meat, bones and organs by themselves contain all a dog needs when fed in variety. 

Not sure on this, but isn't it vitamin D that both dogs and people's bodies produce themselves? Either way, with a PMR diet you wouldn't need to supplement.


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## meggels (May 30, 2010)

naturalfeddogs said:


> What we are saying about the whole veggie thing, is that there isn't enough in them that a dog can actually use. So, the veggies could be causing a deficiency in certain vitamins. Raw meat, bones and organs by themselves contain all a dog needs when fed in variety.
> 
> Not sure on this, but isn't it vitamin D that both dogs and people's bodies produce themselves? Either way, with a PMR diet you wouldn't need to supplement.


If she is already covering her bases by feeding meat, bone, organ, and her dogs are getting everything they need, then how would a tiny amount of veggies cause a deficiency? Wouldn't it just be a few extra ADDED vitamins? I'm not understanding.


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## naturalfeddogs (Jan 6, 2011)

I just think maybe she should try taking out the vegetable matter all together. It may or may not be causing a problem, but you never know unless you use process of elimination. I believe I would be willing to try at least. What could it hurt?


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## woganvonderweidenstrasse (Nov 22, 2012)

meggels said:


> If she is already covering her bases by feeding meat, bone, organ, and her dogs are getting everything they need, then how would a tiny amount of veggies cause a deficiency? Wouldn't it just be a few extra ADDED vitamins? I'm not understanding.


Also, to add veggies you have to remove some of the meat/bone/organ to stay inside the daily ration of food. So you're removing something they need to replace it with something they don't need.....? - I also feed veg every now and again when I have left over sweet potato or butternut I'm not gonna just throw it away, so I give it to Logan - but it is not part of his diet as in strictly feeding it daily.


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## Sheltielover25 (Jan 18, 2011)

woganvonderweidenstrasse said:


> Also, to add veggies you have to remove some of the meat/bone/organ to stay inside the daily ration of food. So you're removing something they need to replace it with something they don't need.....? - I also feed veg every now and again when I have left over sweet potato or butternut I'm not gonna just throw it away, so I give it to Logan - but it is not part of his diet as in strictly feeding it daily.


Eh, I'm a big beliver in raw feeding of meat/bones/organs but I highly doubt she's having to remove much considering it's only 2 tbsp a day! I know what you mean about some barf people who make veggies/fruits a big deal, but I'm pretty sure her small amount isn't causing the problem. I agree, you never know until you eliminate it, and it won't HURT to eliminate it, but I have a feeling it isn't the problem.


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## frogdog (Aug 10, 2011)

It seems your dog could use more variety than chicken, horse, beef and only sardines once a week. Variety is key! I saw a huge difference in my dogs when I started feeding fish daily...I feed on rotation wild caught whole sardines, anchovies and mackerel. They also get one whole quail egg daily. 

By the way, my dog Yogi took about a year before looking amazing on raw...now, he gets compliments all the time how gorgeous his coat looks and how healthy he is. 

I do not have to administer any supplements since I feed such a wide variety and feed a rotation of fish along with giving eggs daily...none needed.


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## jerrypardue (Jan 4, 2013)

*Barf*

I don't know much about this but I do know this, take a look at a bag of dog food sitting over in the corner of your shed or back porch or whatever. The only thing that you can depend on from that bag is two nutrients, protein and calories. Most consumers buy dog food based on price but then protein level and fat level which ties right back into those two nutrients. 
Protein is the absolute necessity for building bone, muscle mass, and soft tissue. There is not other way. Also, in older dog, the only way to replace bone, muscle mass, and soft tissue that is lost during the aging process is by feeding higher levels of protein. Now, for other life styles, there are other considerations which I will address later.
Other growth and metabolic issues must be addressed by a complete vitamin/mineral profile and one that originates in high fortification levels, not near the minimum like most dog foods are formulated around.


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## Roo (Oct 17, 2010)

> I don't know much about this but I do know this, take a look at a bag of dog food sitting over in the corner of your shed or back porch or whatever. The only thing that you can depend on from that bag is two nutrients, protein and calories. Most consumers buy dog food based on price but then protein level and fat level which ties right back into those two nutrients.
> Protein is the absolute necessity for building bone, muscle mass, and soft tissue. There is not other way. Also, in older dog, the only way to replace bone, muscle mass, and soft tissue that is lost during the aging process is by feeding higher levels of protein. Now, for other life styles, there are other considerations which I will address later.
> Other growth and metabolic issues must be addressed by a complete vitamin/mineral profile and one that originates in high fortification levels, not near the minimum like most dog foods are formulated around.


A homemade raw diet and commercial dog food are different, using commercial dog food in example relation to raw food really doesn't make much sense from a nutrient standpoint. Fortification really shouldn't be necessary, if at all with a raw diet fed properly and with enough variety.


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## Savage Destiny (Mar 16, 2011)

CorgiPaws said:


> I don't know of *any* BARF feeders that successfully feed the diet over an extended period of time without regularly using vitamin supplements.


Riddle has eaten BARF-style almost her entire life- she will be 7 in April. She doesn't get quite the amount of veggies recommended by the BARF diet, nor does she get any fruits, but she has had plant matter included in her diet for the majority of her life. We did PMR for a little bit, but after her mast cell tumor we went back to adding certain vegetables for their tumor-fighting properties. The only supplements she gets are for her various issues like her joints, which are not diet related but structure related. Hooray for cruddy breeding.


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