# Very Underweight Dog - Please Help!



## h&j (Nov 9, 2010)

I am the loving owner of a one-year-old German Shorthaired Pointer named Halley. Halley is bright and extremely high energy, and though we don't hunt with her I have done my best to make sure that she has plenty of stimulation - trips to the area dog parks, visits with other dogs, playtime in the yard, and training classes - so she really gets a decent amount of exercise.

Since we got her at 8 weeks, Halley has had on and off digestive problems, basically really loose stools/ diarrhea. I worked with the vets a lot (lots of bills - yikes!) her first 3 months with us, and while we never really got things perfect, she did get well enough for them to recommend I switch back to regular puppy food from the low-residue puppy kibble & wet food she'd been on. It didn't seem to make much difference. Over the course of the year we switched her dry puppy food maybe twice more, and my husband and I read more and more about raw diets, and have thought this might be something to try.

Well, to come to the point, over the past two months Halley has gradually been looking more and more emaciated. I had my first baby three months ago, so at first thought she might be adjusting to our new less dog-centric lifestyle. She started out thin, and after a bit of a growth spurt at the beginning, we noticed her looking skinnier. She should be at least 45 pounds, but at the vet's yesterday she weighed 35 pounds. After talking to another local pet owner at the dog park about the BARF diet she feeds her dogs, I decided to switch Halley over. I read what I could find online, and bought leg quarters, sardines, liver and yoghurt to start her off. 

She mainly had leg quarters for the first two weeks, with some yoghurt every day for the beneficial bacteria, as well as a tin of sardines about every other day for the omega-3s. She got about a pound of chicken a day - between 2 & 3% of her ideal weight. Her poop immediately looked different-much like the photos in the poop comparison thread. She was still looking painfully thin, so over the past weekend (about 1 1/2 weeks into eating raw) I gave her some beef liver, which I now suspect may have been rushing things.

Yesterday I couldn't take it any more and brought her to the vet. They were at first very discouraging and in fact downright insulting when I explained how we want to feed her a biologically appropriate diet. However, once they did the tests they were much more reasonable. She was clean for parasites, and her blood work came back mostly normal (she had rather low protein levels - I don't know why considering what I've been feeding) and her liver seemed to be the proper size. The vet then recommended I get her more fat, something she had to admit might be easier to do on a raw diet than with the commercially produced foods she has available.

Soooooo...

I read danemama's article about starting PMR, and wonder do I need to buy some chicken backs and go back to just chicken for a while, or do I need to find a better source of fat and get her on that as fast as I can?

Any advice at all would be welcomed! Sorry about the epic post, but I am desperately trying to get my girl back in shape before it gets too cold out. 

Thanks so much everyone!


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## hbwright (Jul 14, 2010)

Hey and welcome. My boys best friend is a GSH. Very active breed. With my boxer we fee do heer more than our doberman who weighs twice her and she is still lean. At times bordering on bony. It its her physique and activity and we go based on her condition what and how much to feed. Don't get overzealous at first. You know she will gain and is not starving so she just may need a vest to get her cushion in the cold. Especially with the tummy problems I'd state slow and increase steady. Add more bone in chicken at lesser amounts and tasker off the fat. This can be added in more amounts slowly as her tummy gets used to the diet. When you've worked up to the 2-3% keep her there and see how she does. You can increase and decrease as needed. I would start organ only when she has started a few protein sources without problem and again gradually work up the amounts. This can be even a month after starting or more. 

Take it easy and let her build up at a slow pace. Don't be alarmed at small setbacks. They are temporary.


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## h&j (Nov 9, 2010)

Thanks for your response. I know we should go slowly, and I need that reminder to be patient and not freak out!

I do want to make sure there are enough calories available to her so that while she may be adjusting she shouldn't be losing any more weight--there's not too much more for her to lose. Does one pound still seem like a reasonable amount of food for her, given her energy and current and target weights? 

I'm also a little unsure how to tell when it's time to move to the next stage. How did you know whether or not your dogs were digesting well and ready for the next sources of proteins?

Thanks so much, it is really helpful for me to hear others' thoughts right now!


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## RawFedDogs (Jun 16, 2008)

h&j said:


> Yesterday I couldn't take it any more and brought her to the vet. They were at first very discouraging and in fact downright insulting when I explained how we want to feed her a biologically appropriate diet. However, once they did the tests they were much more reasonable.


It was because of their ignorance. If you have done much research, you already have more nutrition training than your vet does. They take ONE course in vet school on animal nutrition. One course. And thats all animals, not just dogs, but cats, cows, horses, etc.



> The vet then recommended I get her more fat, something she had to admit might be easier to do on a raw diet than with the commercially produced foods she has available.


Yes, it definately is but for the moment don't worry about all that stuff. Right now don't worry about nutrition. The first priority is to ger her used to digesting real food. That should be very easy and not take long. Usually no more than a month or two. Forget everything else until this goal is reached. Where she can eat several different protein sources, bones, and organs and maintain relatively solid stools. Don't worry about omega 3's, vitamins, nothing at this point.

After that goal is reached then we can start tweaking the diet to get it the way she needs. I think you will find that after the first month or so that no tweaking will be necessary.

Reread Natalie's web page and look at mine that is linked in my sig.



> I read danemama's article about starting PMR, and wonder do I need to buy some chicken backs and go back to just chicken for a while, or do I need to find a better source of fat and get her on that as fast as I can?


Yes, if you can find them, feed chicken backs for a week then alternate chicken quarters every other meal after the first week. Don't worry about fat, don't worry about any nutrients. That will come in time. Be patient. This is a process. When you try to shortcut or modify the process, digestive upset can occur. There will be a time in a month or so that we will worry about nutrients and get all that she needs into her diet.

If you can find a small independent grocery store that sells meat to special order you chicken backs by the case, it would make your life a lot easier. Thats what most of us here do.



> Any advice at all would be welcomed! Sorry about the epic post, but I am desperately trying to get my girl back in shape before it gets too cold out.


It took her time to get into this shape and it will take a short while longer to get her all fixed up. :smile:


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## DaneMama (Jun 27, 2008)

Hello and welcome. I'm glad to hear that you have read my article and are going to try out PMR. I can say with all certainty that she will do much better on this style of feeding. I recommend that you re read my website on how to get started and go from there. It goes into much detail so I suggest you go with the quick start version to get past a lot of the "bulk" of the message since you are not 100% new to raw feeding altogether.

Raw is actually a lot less "high protein" than most people think. Because raw meats are all water inclusive (~70% on average by weight) that dilutes the protein a lot. Most meats fall within 18-26% protein. So in reality a raw diet is about as low protein as you can get, but its the right protein that matters...ANIMAL proteins. This kind of diet is very good for the liver and kidneys, contrary to what vets will tell you about protein.

Please, come back with ANY and ALL questions that you have because that is how you learn. But remember to take things slow, even if she is underweight. You don't want to rush it and her get sick because that will set her back even further!

Good luck and keep us posted!!!

Getting Started (quick start) | Prey Model Raw


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## h&j (Nov 9, 2010)

Thank you so much for your replies! I re-read your great articles (I had actually seen both of them before in my research but got away from them somehow) and I have contacted a local meat store and arranged to get a case or two of chicken backs as soon as they come in. For now, Halley is exclusively eating leg quarters.

I have a couple of questions, if you wouldn't mind weighing in.

First, how important is it that she receive only uncooked meat & bones of the type I am currently feeding? 

Halley's training classes encourage us to use lots of healthy treats, so she is used to getting some goodies between mealtimes (usually bits of carrots, tiny strips of nori [the type of seaweed used to wrap sushi], cooked chicken, or bison bites). I usually have a bit of pork fat on hand from uncooked bacon that I could give her instead if that wouldn't interfere with this process. I would just strictly adhere to the plan, but she looks at me so sadly wanting food, and she's so darned skinny, I really want to give it to her.

Second, which may play into the first, about how much should she be getting per day taking into account her high energy? 

I originally figured that I would give her a pound a day, which is roughly one chicken quarter, and a bit more than 2% of her target weight of 45 pounds. So, I cut a quarter in two and gave her half in the morning and half at night. However, this doesn't really seem like enough for her if I'm not giving her any kind of extra snacks at all. Should I up it to a whole quarter at one meal and half at another? One leg quarter per meal? I really want to make sure she has enough calories available to her, whether or not she is effectively processing them yet. 

Again, thank you so much for your advice and encouragement. I realize it may take a while, but I am completely committed to getting Halley up to a more healthy weight, and I am hoping that PMR feeding will allow us to do so as well as improve her overall health and well-being. She is already super excited to crunch down on those chicken bones whenever a meal is served! :biggrin:


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## 3Musketeers (Nov 4, 2010)

From what I have seen at least, chicken backs tend to have a generous amount of fat attached.
Maybe feeding higher amounts of RMBs (3%+) would be more beneficial than only adding extra fat? 
But I'm not sure feeding a higher amount is a very good idea yet at this point in the process. It might cause digestive upsets? 

I'm sure RawFedDogs and Danemama could shed more light on the issue


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## DaneMama (Jun 27, 2008)

h&j said:


> First, how important is it that she receive only uncooked meat & bones of the type I am currently feeding?
> 
> Halley's training classes encourage us to use lots of healthy treats, so she is used to getting some goodies between mealtimes (usually bits of carrots, tiny strips of nori [the type of seaweed used to wrap sushi], cooked chicken, or bison bites). I usually have a bit of pork fat on hand from uncooked bacon that I could give her instead if that wouldn't interfere with this process. I would just strictly adhere to the plan, but she looks at me so sadly wanting food, and she's so darned skinny, I really want to give it to her.


Not very important. Its ok to use cooked foods for treats, as long as it doesn't contribute to a huge amount of the daily intake. We give all kinds of different treats while feeding a raw diet. Of course if you see any digestive upset you'll want to cut out anything extra for a bit to get it under control.



> Second, which may play into the first, about how much should she be getting per day taking into account her high energy?
> 
> I originally figured that I would give her a pound a day, which is roughly one chicken quarter, and a bit more than 2% of her target weight of 45 pounds. So, I cut a quarter in two and gave her half in the morning and half at night. However, this doesn't really seem like enough for her if I'm not giving her any kind of extra snacks at all. Should I up it to a whole quarter at one meal and half at another? One leg quarter per meal? I really want to make sure she has enough calories available to her, whether or not she is effectively processing them yet.


How is she doing with ~1 pound per day? Does she have normal bowel movements consistently? If she is doing well, I would start increasing her daily ration very, very gradually. Maybe just give an extra half quarter at one meal and see how she does.

Dogs utilize raw foods a lot more efficiently than they do kibble, which is why they poo so much less. So it may seem like not a whole lot of food, but you have to remember that she is using about 95%+ of it rather than 30-60% on kibble.



> Again, thank you so much for your advice and encouragement. I realize it may take a while, but I am completely committed to getting Halley up to a more healthy weight, and I am hoping that PMR feeding will allow us to do so as well as improve her overall health and well-being. She is already super excited to crunch down on those chicken bones whenever a meal is served! :biggrin:


We are always happy to help. But I will say that some dogs are just naturally skinny. As long as they have normal behavior and show no symptoms of disease, I wouldn't worry at all about her being skinny. Its better for dogs to be underweight than even slightly over weight.


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## Ania's Mommy (Feb 8, 2009)

h&j said:


> First, how important is it that she receive only uncooked meat & bones of the type I am currently feeding?


Just to clarify, cooked meat in small amounts is fine. Cooked BONE in ANY amount is NOT fine.:wink:


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## hbwright (Jul 14, 2010)

danemama08 said:


> We are always happy to help. But I will say that some dogs are just naturally skinny. As long as they have normal behavior and show no symptoms of disease, I wouldn't worry at all about her being skinny. Its better for dogs to be underweight than even slightly over weight.


My Jubilee is about 42 pounds and eats more than my 80 lb dog and she is still very lean. You can see her ribs in most positions but she is extremely muscular. I add more to her diet and the ribs start to dissappear but then as soon as she gets a smaller meal they appear again. On and on and on. She is just so extremely active that the food is used up as energy, which she has pleanty of obviously. I know she's healthy and I portion her food daily according to body condition. Ribs, extra; no ribs, normal/smaller portion. She did lose weight when we first started raw and her ribs were prominent. Within a month she was eating her normal portion and I just kept increasing as her tummy withstood more food to the amount of food she needed. It didn't take long at all for her to be back to a healthy weight.


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## DaneMama (Jun 27, 2008)

hbwright said:


> My Jubilee is about 42 pounds and eats more than my 80 lb dog and she is still very lean. You can see her ribs in most positions but she is extremely muscular. I add more to her diet and the ribs start to dissappear but then as soon as she gets a smaller meal they appear again. On and on and on. She is just so extremely active that the food is used up as energy, which she has pleanty of obviously. I know she's healthy and I portion her food daily according to body condition. Ribs, extra; no ribs, normal/smaller portion. She did lose weight when we first started raw and her ribs were prominent. Within a month she was eating her normal portion and I just kept increasing as her tummy withstood more food to the amount of food she needed. It didn't take long at all for her to be back to a healthy weight.


Is this the dog the OP is talking about? If so it sounds like a perfectly healthy dog to me and weight really souldnt be an issue. Boxers that are in peak shape usually have all of their ribs showing and are super muscular. Now if she had poor muscular development then I'd be worried. 

If she is so high energy that she needs twice as much food as the "guideline" says, thats perfectly fine. The guideline of 2-3% is just there for people to get an idea of how much to start with. Then that amount must be adjusted for each individual dog because they are all a bit different in their energy requirements. 

Again, I wouldn't worry about her weight one bit from the sounds of her, but pictures are helpful as well :wink:


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## hbwright (Jul 14, 2010)

danemama, no, this is just my dog I used as an example. She is thin and perfectly healthy. On a 40 lb dog 10 pounds can be a lot and it can be tempting to try to get them to gain weight fast to improve their condition but with good nutrition the condition will naturally follow.


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## h&j (Nov 9, 2010)

No, Halley is a 35 pound GSP who so far as I can tell ought to be at least 45 pounds...I have spoken to many other GSP owners, both online and in person, and those who have seen Halley agree that her current condition goes beyond "naturally lean," as did the vet I took her to. Halley has always been thin, to the point that other dog owners have constantly asked me if she's supposed to be that skinny. I always used to smile and say yes, but over the past two months I can't say that I think that's the case any more. This is why I used the more dramatic "Very Underweight" in the thread title...not to be alarmist, but to get information about safely and effectively increasing her weight.

I have some pictures up on my profile that are somewhat recent, but I don't have one that really shows how clearly you can see each of her ribs or how far her hips protrude. Her face has also lost all extra "padding" and her coat is thinner and not as glossy as it was this summer. I'll see if I can get a picture today.

I really have no idea why her weight and condition took this downturn...she was still eating kibble the entire time, perhaps not quite as much as she ought to have had, but it wasn't like she just quit eating. As relieved as I was that everything seemed normal at the vet, I am just a little concerned that I can't tell why this happened.

On the plus side, Halley remains as energetic as ever, loving to spend hours outside with us rocketing around the yard and playing fetch. If anything, I'd say her energy and desire to run around might have increased as she's lost the weight. Could she simply be using up way more calories than she's getting?

Thanks again for the super helpful posts--it is such a relief to me to be able to talk about this with such knowledgeable folks!


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## DaneMama (Jun 27, 2008)

Sounds like and looks like she is a normal healthy dog to me...GSPs are very lean and thin. She's still very young and may just need time to fill out in adulthood. I don't even know how many times I've been asked if I fed my puppies because they have all been skinny and lanky.


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## hbwright (Jul 14, 2010)

I agree. She has the energy she needs. She still has quite a bit of maturing physically. She probably is on the thin side but there are a lot of puppies that go through lanky periods and periods of weight standstill while the rest of their body continues to grow. How do the muscles look at heer shoulders and hips? 

I think she'll definitely benefit from her new diet both in weight and fur condition. 

Jubilee worked her way up from about 1/2 a pound and is now at about 1.5, which is 3.5%, sometimes more and she is a year and a half, so I feel safe to say with heer small size she is done growing. On the other hand my 80 lb. doberman eats a pound a day and I have to cut him back if her gets larger meals or he'll get fluffy.


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## h&j (Nov 9, 2010)

Just updating to say...

I think it's working already!

It's been about 3 1/2 - 4 weeks since Halley had her last kibble, and while she was seemingly still deteriorating when I started this thread, there are a few things I've noticed that have made me do a happy dance. :biggrin:

One, she's stopped shedding like a maniac. She still has areas, particularly on the undercarriage, that could use some more hair, but I can't run my hand across her and come up with a fist full of (German Short-) hairs anymore!

Two, the dandruff also seems to have disappeared. I was quite worried at the time of my original writing that she was getting worse and the dandruff was a sign of that. However, I did some more reading on here and saw that it could be a sign of the dog adjusting to a raw diet and perhaps detoxifying. I'm happy to say that it has cleared up and her skin is looking much better.

Aaaaand! Third, her front ribs are getting harder to see! I thought I might have been imagining it just a few weeks in, but I checked with some friends who don't see her everyday, and she is definitely looking a bit better. 

Someone posted an image in another thread of five dog weights, and Halley was, at the time of my first posting, a bit closer to "emaciated" than "thin". Now she seems to be on her way to thin! Thanks guys, for all your support. I'm sure I'll continue to pester with questions, but I have really benefited from reading threads on here, and best of all Halley has benefited too. :biggrin:


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## hbwright (Jul 14, 2010)

That is wonderful. In time you'll have to post her story in the success stories section. And I bet she loves it!


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