# Ear Cropping Thoughts (Moved)



## nupe

DaneMama said:


> Akasha is our mini Dane! But I love to watch her run. She's so graceful and so fast, she may even be able to keep up with your Tessie! How many Danes do you know who could do that?! I honestly don't mind having Danes on the smaller side. The giant ones definitely age faster and usually have more issues with health. I have a feeling that Zuri will also be a petit girl, but I'm 100% fine with that.
> 
> I also don't like the cropped look, not to metion its inhumane.



INHUMANE!!...thats a little exreme wouldnt you say?


*EDITED BY PUPPYPAWS: I moved this from another thread, because as it always does when something like cropping and docking are mentioned, I KNEW it would go off track so ta daaa, new thread... and freaking play nice, mmk?*


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## CorgiPaws

nupe said:


> INHUMANE!!...thats a little exreme wouldnt you say?


Nope. But that's a topic for an entirely DIFFERENT thread. so take it elsewhere.


ETA. I took it elsewhere. :tongue:


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## jdatwood

hmbutler said:


> EDIT: Off-topic here, just a question after looking at that website - why do people crop the ears of Danes? Is it purely an appearance thing? I love the big floppy Dane ears! Lol


I don't like it and I think it's cruel and unusual punishment. They have to cut off 1/2 of the dogs ear to achieve that horrible look.

Have I mentioned that I LOVE Akasha's ears?? :biggrin: I can't imagine her not having these lovely, soft, ears that are so full of emotion


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## hmbutler

Yep, I'm a HUGE fan of the floppy ears :biggrin:

But the reason I asked was because it did seem to me to be a bit cruel - if it's not done for a health reason (but instead for appreance or "show" dog standards) then that's terrible, in my opinion. Why CUT OFF half an ear?? Sounds painful to me. I mean, I wouldn't mind someone cutting off half of my stomach/butt/thighs for a better appearance but at least that would be my choice :lol:


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## CorgiPaws

I just love Braxton's cropped ears....





































(ETA: If he were chopped up, I'd never get awesomely cute pictures like that!)
Oh wait..... 








Nope, I wouldn't trade that look for ANYTHING!!!!

IN all seriousness, while I can appreciate the look of a really well done crop on some breeds, I simply could never bring myself to chop off half of my dog's ears, and then proceed to mess with them regularly (posting) while they are still healing from being hacked up. I'm sorry but you simply can NOT tell me that it doesn't hurt to mess with them, its wounded flesh. SO sad.

Even if it weren't evil (which it is, in fact, evil) I really just like the look of natural ears more. They have so much personality.


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## jdatwood

It's all about physical appearance these days sadly. Plastic surgery for dog owners


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## Tobi

I also think cropping is cruel to achieve a "look" if it's for a JOB okay there is some need for it... sure... but anymore these are done for look, and it's painful for the dog, and it's cruel imo...

If you want a dog with cropped ears... get one that's got it naturally! :lol:

BTW Jon Akasha's ears are pretty beautiful they fit her so well!!! :becky:


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## CorgiPaws

jdatwood said:


> It's all about physical appearance these days sadly. Plastic surgery for dog owners


A lot of advocates of the procedure like to claim that it's for ear infection prevention..... which is kinda funny. 
The only dogs I've ever had ear infection issues with were the cocker spaniel we had for a while right when we got her... and other than that, Grissom, the Corgi, is the only other dog I've ever had with so much as one ear infection. Last I checked, he had pointy ears.


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## xellil

And the Doberman owners who say it's better to crop tails because the tails get injured. 

Like a billion zillion dogs haven't gone through life with a long tail with no problems.

My poor dog has cropped ears and they don't even stand up. At least his tail was done properly by a vet and not with a rubber band.


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## Scarlett_O'

PuppyPaws said:


>


See...now I was ready to come, read this thread and be able to obtain knowledge....now...well I cant!!!! I just keep staring at those BEAUTIFUL eyes!!! 




Tobi said:


> I also think cropping is cruel to achieve a "look" if it's for a JOB okay there is some need for it... sure... but anymore these are done for look, and it's painful for the dog, and it's cruel imo...
> 
> If you want a dog with cropped ears... get one that's got it naturally! :lol:
> 
> BTW Jon Akasha's ears are pretty beautiful they fit her so well!!! :becky:


HEHE....(I hope you dont mind I add Tobi in here)

You mean like these beautiful babies?!??!?!





































Edit to add Bishop!


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## CorgiPaws

xellil said:


> And the Doberman owners who say it's better to crop tails because the tails get injured.
> 
> Like a billion zillion dogs haven't gone through life with a long tail with no problems.
> 
> My poor dog has cropped ears and they don't even stand up. At least his tail was done properly by a vet and not with a rubber band.



I'll play devil's advocate here, in that I really don't have an issue with tail docking (or dew claw removal) if done properly. To me, the differences are vast because cropping is a full on surgery, with sedation (thus added risk) and prolonged healing, not to mention posting which requires constant manipulation of the wounded flesh. 
Both tail docking and dew claw removal are very very quick- some don't even bleed more than one little drop! I've actually witnessed several different litters being done. Some don't even cry- some do. Puppies that young squeal just from being picked up, so I think a lot of the videos on it seem a lot more dramatic than it really is. Plus healing time and process is night and day to the cropping.


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## CorgiPaws

Scarlett_O' said:


> See...now I was ready to come, read this thread and be able to obtain knowledge....now...well I cant!!!! I just keep staring at those BEAUTIFUL eyes!!!


HAHA, How do you think I feel? I'm expected to be productive every single day with those eyes on me!


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## cprcheetah

I feel it is a personal choice. Ziva was cropped by the puppy mill she came from and they did a horrible job, I hate it, but what's done is done, no fixing a bad crop job. Both my danes were cropped, female came that way as an adult and I chose to crop Kronos, although with all his health issues, his ears never stood up so he was a floppy cropped boy. I do not know if I would crop again, but I definitely like the look of both natural and cropped dogs as I think the cropped really gives them the 'profile' of the breed yet the flopped gives them more personality.


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## chowder

PuppyPaws said:


>


Nobody has ears like Braxton! Seriously, you have got to enter that picture in some contests, it would win every time. I've never seen a dog look so gosh darn happy!! :becky:


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## Scarlett_O'

PuppyPaws said:


> I'll play devil's advocate here, in that I really don't have an issue with tail docking (or dew claw removal) if done properly. To me, the differences are vast because cropping is a full on surgery, with sedation (thus added risk) and prolonged healing, not to mention posting which requires constant manipulation of the wounded flesh.
> Both tail docking and dew claw removal are very very quick- some don't even bleed more than one little drop! I've actually witnessed several different litters being done. Some don't even cry- some do. Puppies that young squeal just from being picked up, so I think a lot of the videos on it seem a lot more dramatic than it really is. Plus healing time and process is night and day to the cropping.


TOTALLY agree with this post. I was born into a Springer Spaniel family, they where born, bred and raised for hunting...I, from a very young age, knew about tail docking and removal of dew claws because of this...it can be done quite well, and quite quickly and so young that the puppies will never ever remember!:smile:





PuppyPaws said:


> HAHA, How do you think I feel? I'm expected to be productive every single day with those eyes on me!


HAHA, See I just dont know how you do it!!!


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## xellil

I do agree that cropping is worse medical wise- healing, standing those poor ears up etc.

But I don't think tail docking is any less a mutilation, even though it's easier. 

In all honesty, I think there are alot worse things people can do to their dogs, if it is done properly under veterinary supervision. I don't get horribly exercised about it. My problem with it is it's for looks, not for function. Cropped ears are only functional for dogs that are going to be fighting another animal.

But I think tails are much more likely to be done with rubber bands or other crude methods as tiny puppies because the results are easy to get, whereas ears are not. That's why you see so many rescue Dobies with natural ears, but most of the time their tails will be docked because the owners did it.


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## Caty M

Abi... you forgot Bishop!










I'll be honest. I love the look of a cropped dog. But I will always have 'natural' breeds... no docked tails or ears.


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## Scarlett_O'

Caty M said:


> Abi... you forgot Bishop!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I'll be honest. I love the look of a cropped dog. But I will always have 'natural' breeds... no docked tails or ears.



DAAAAWWW...Im sorry Sir Bishop!!! (You are being added now dear Sir!! )


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## nikkiluvsu15

xellil said:


> And the Doberman owners who say it's better to crop tails because the tails get injured.


I don't know much about Dobes, but with Vizslas it _is_ important that the tail gets docked (they are usually left with 2/3-3/4 of their tail though, so its not a very extreme dock). They have extremely thin tails that will easily break and cut up when they are going through the brush during a hunt... and really just thin/fragile tails in general. Maybe its a bit different because many of the Vizslas still do what they were bred to do (in a sense). My V will have a docked tail thats for sure.

I generally prefer floppy ears, but I don't really care if someone wants to crop their dogs ears. When done right, I actually think it looks quite regal :biggrin:


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## minnieme

I've read many books too that claim dogs have a harder time "reading" the emotional and behavioral cues from other dogs with cropped ears or docked tails. I, too, believe that mutilating a dog's body for human desires is...disturbing. I've never really understood it since we always had rescue dogs -- never any fancy show dogs. And now that I have my own Great Dane, a breed whose ears are often cropped, I just can't imagine not having my velvety soft, beautifully dappled Minnie ears!


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## swolek

About the "cropping helps prevent ear infections" point someone brought up...I've heard that too and it cracks me up. If that's truly the case, AKC better start allowing cropped Cockers and Bassets!

ETA: I'm not a fan of tail docking, either, but it's not quite the same as ear cropping to me. I don't think I would have chosen to have it done to my Cockers now but I didn't think about it with my first (Sophie) while Bambi and Gracie came done already. Sometimes I kind of appreciate it when we're running around the woods but I think we all would have lived if they had tails! I've heard tail injuries are common with un-docked working Cockers but I couldn't say either way.


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## cprcheetah

swolek said:


> About the "cropping helps prevent ear infections" point someone brought up...I've heard that too and it cracks me up. If that's truly the case, AKC better start allowing cropped Cockers and Bassets!


Hmm.....labradors....goldens.....german shepherds too


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## Dude and Bucks Mamma

DaneMama said:


> I sure hope you don't! I've never had issues with ear infections with my Danes and they go swimming, playing in the mud, etc and their ears stay clean all by themselves. But...I am happy to hear that your next dog will be a Dane! You don't live that far from us...you can come hang with the Danes here anytime!


We had HUGE issues with our dobies and ear infections. It was awful. Our first dobie was in so much pain with the constant infections that it was worth it to crop our current dobie's ears. Her ears get really dirty really fast (need to be cleaned every other day)even with being cropped. After watching our first dobie suffer through all these ear infections we don't regret cropping. I don't know if it has anything to do with location (she lives in Southern California) or not because my brittany had chronic ear infections too. I am really anal about ears so they are always clean, but the ear infections were still a nightmare. Buck and Dude are ok up here. Not a whole lot of dirt in their ears despite Buck having hound ears.

Anyhow, it was worth it for Xena to have her ears cropped because it was a decision between a couple months of wounded ears and a lifetime of pain and irritation with ear infections. Our dalmatian (also in Southern California) never had issues with ear infections though. I really don't think we will crop our danes ears because natural eared danes are doing better and better in the show ring and I want to title my dane in hopes that he will turn out to be an exceptional dog that can help contribute to the breed in a positive way. I would love to see my stud contribute to creating healthier danes.

Natalie... I would LOVE to come play with the danes sometime!!! We saw 2 danes (both blue) at the dog park today. Both velcro dogs and both TOTAL lovers!


***ETA BY PUPPYPAWS: moved from another active thread, no need for two cropping convos to go on at once. *


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## CorgiPaws

Dude and Bucks Mamma said:


> We had HUGE issues with our dobies and ear infections. It was awful. Our first dobie was in so much pain with the constant infections that it was worth it to crop our current dobie's ears. Her ears get really dirty really fast (need to be cleaned every other day)even with being cropped. After watching our first dobie suffer through all these ear infections we don't regret cropping. I don't know if it has anything to do with location (she lives in Southern California) or not because my brittany had chronic ear infections too. I am really anal about ears so they are always clean, but the ear infections were still a nightmare. Buck and Dude are ok up here. Not a whole lot of dirt in their ears despite Buck having hound ears.
> 
> Anyhow, it was worth it for Xena to have her ears cropped because it was a decision between a couple months of wounded ears and a lifetime of pain and irritation with ear infections. Our dalmatian (also in Southern California) never had issues with ear infections though. I really don't think we will crop our danes ears because natural eared danes are doing better and better in the show ring and I want to title my dane in hopes that he will turn out to be an exceptional dog that can help contribute to the breed in a positive way. I would love to see my stud contribute to creating healthier danes.
> 
> Natalie... I would LOVE to come play with the danes sometime!!! We saw 2 danes (both blue) at the dog park today. Both velcro dogs and both TOTAL lovers!
> 
> 
> ***ETA BY PUPPYPAWS: moved from another active thread, no need for two cropping convos to go on at once. *



My brother gets really bad allergies. He's miserable all Spring, with itchy puffy eyes, and runny nose. 
After watching how miserable he gets, it makes sense for me to remove a portion of my nose, so I don't get allergies to. 


Oh... wait... except for that makes no logical sense whatsoever. My bad.


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## Dude and Bucks Mamma

PuppyPaws said:


> My brother gets really bad allergies. He's miserable all Spring, with itchy puffy eyes, and runny nose.
> After watching how miserable he gets, it makes sense for me to remove a portion of my nose, so I don't get allergies to.
> 
> 
> Oh... wait... except for that makes no logical sense whatsoever. My bad.


See, Linsey... Personal attacks are not appreciated. First of all, cropping Xena was not my decision, but it has saved her from ear infections. It is a fact. I know people think it is silly, but I have dealt with too many dogs who get ear infections way too easily. From my experience with 3 dobermans, they are a breed prone to ear infections. My best friend growing up had several labs who, despite taking great care of their ears, had to be treated for severe ear infections. They are a breed prone to ear infections as well. I, myself, have never had a dog's ears cropped. Xena was owned by my grandfather but I lived with them for many, many years and pretty much raised Xena. She is going on 10 years old now so the last time ANY dog in my family had it's ears cropped was nearly a decade ago. I am not going to accept you jumping on me like this. I would appreciate it if you didn't call me stupid by adding a sugar coating to not make it so obvious.

Notice that I also said that although my next dog will be a dane, I will more than likely (meaning that I am 99.9% sure I will NOT crop) not crop his ears because more and more natural eared danes are doing well in the ring and I would love for my boy to contribute to creating healthier danes. 

Again, ear cropping has not been done in my family (immediate or extended) for almost a decade and I may as well add to the numbers of naturally eared danes and save myself the time, money, and effort required for a show crop as well as the pup the time and pain. 

Don't jump on people for something that happened 10 years ago.


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## kady05

minnieme said:


> I've read many books too that claim dogs have a harder time "reading" the emotional and behavioral cues from other dogs with cropped ears or docked tails.


That argument is the biggest load of crap ever, sorry. Sako is completely able to communicate with cropped ears.. in fact, I think he's better at communicating how he's feeling with them.

Sako is my first cropped dog. I wasn't sure if I wanted to have it done at first, but went ahead and let the breeder take him to her vet for the surgery. I picked him up 2 days after, he was bouncing around acting like a perfectly normal pup (no pain meds). She sent me a video of him the night after surgery and he was playing with a toy acting just fine. So while I realize there is some pain involved, I don't think it's nearly as painful as some would like to make it out to be.

I also never had to post or tape his ears. Took the stitches out after 7 days and was done. Only thing I had to do was point ointment on his ears, which he never minded.

I think cropping is a personal choice. I would never own a natural earred (or undocked) Dobe.. I think they look like **** Hounds. Danes, Boxers, etc., I can go either way with the ears. I have a friend with a Dane who has a lovely crop..










As long as it's done by a qualified vet, I don't have a problem with it.


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## Ethel

I have a gorgeous Doberman girl with natural ears. She looks so elegant and dignified. 
I love the look of cropped Dobermans too (I love Dobermans LOL), but I didn't want to put her in any discomfort with cropping and posting. So I chose natural.


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## IslandPaws4Raw

I agree that this is a personal choice. Something that I, personally, would never do to any of my pets regardless of breed. It would have been REALLY convenient for ME to have Kai's dew claws removed when she was spayed ( she's a real grabber when excited ). I didn't see the point of doing something cosmetic for my comfort.

I also gave my human daughter the CHOICE of piercing her ears or not......she decided to at 12.

It's a shame what we do to our companions for cosmetic or breed standards. You have to ask the question, where does it end? Look at the extremes some breeders are are going to, to get a certain "look" that now somehow has become the "breed standard" eg. GSD's ( these poor creatures you see in the show ring now are a far cry from what they were originally bred for) and CKCS......just WRONG!

Anywho........hope I don't go down in flames on that one.........


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## RawFedDogs

The only reason to crop a dogs ears is the ego of the owner. If you have a bunch of dogs, all with ear infection problems, I would look elsewhere for the cause, not the floppy ears. There are zillions of floppy eared dogs that never have ear infections. I think diet would be the first place I'd look concerning ear infections.

As for docking, dogs use tails for communications. No tail makes that pretty difficult. It would be kinda like cutting our tongue off. If certain breeds have thin tails that get injured easily, why don't these breeders that spout so much about improving the breed, actually breed for thicker tails?

Now, with my rant about cropping .. here's something else to consider I guess ... there is no animal in nature that has floppy ears. Man created floppy ear dogs.


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## hmbutler

RawFedDogs said:


> Now, with my rant about cropping .. here's something else to consider I guess ... there is no animal in nature that has floppy ears. Man created floppy ear dogs.


what about rabbits? lol


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## Zar

hmbutler said:


> what about rabbits? lol


Wild rabbits do not have floppy ears.
Same as dogs, domesticated rabbits like lops were bred to have floppy ears.


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## hmbutler

Zar said:


> Wild rabbits do not have floppy ears.
> Same as dogs, domesticated rabbits like lops were bred to have floppy ears.


Well there ya go, I never knew that. But I still thing breeding for looks is different to surgically altering a living animal for looks, so I don't think it's a good argument (tho I know rfd wasn't trying to argue that point, I'm just saying)


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## chowder

Personally, I think anyone who wants to have their puppy's ears cropped should have to stand there in the surgery and hold the ear while the vet slices it off and then have to throw that lovely little piece of ear in the trash can. Then they should have to stay in the room while the puppy is waking up and hear it crying and see it shaking it's head violently, trying to get those bandages off it's ears. 

I've been there, done that, seen way too many puppies shake off their bandages and have the entire cage covered in blood before I got to them. Of course we got them all cleaned up before the owner got there. And of course we told the owner they were fine and didn't have any problem. We didn't send them home until they were wide awake, clean, and bouncing around like puppies again. But that doesn't mean it was as easy as cutting a toenail. It's bloody and traumatic and painful the first day. 

I worked for one of the only remaining vets in the area that would still do ear croppings so we did quite a few of them. I really think it will become a thing of the past once the older vets retire and the new breed of vet starts refusing to do them. I just don't see any of the young vets continuing on with the practice when there are so many other health concerns they can devote their practice to now. 

By the way, I've never owned a dog with a cropped tail or ears. I've spent to much time working at vet clinics trying to actually reattach parts to broken dogs.......


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## lauren43

To me, for some reason, Danes look silly with a crop. Idk, I rarely ever like the look of a crop on any dog. Most times you can see the exact line they were cut on because its always mildly crooked. I guess its just too much for me. Now thats not to say I would never rescue a cropped dog, esp one with a terrible crop...why? Because those many times are the dogs no one wants...

Tail docking I don't have as much of an issue with. But when they dock mixed bred dogs it really really really rubs me the wrong way. My friend has two Schnoodles (don't get me started on that one) and they both have short cropped tails! While I realize they are both breeds that are commonly docked, usually poodles have a longer dock than Schnauzers, so how can you dock puppies when you have no clue what they will look like as adults.

As pups these two were both black and both were curly...








As adults they look nothing alike and both of them have almost no tail at all...


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## xellil

kady05 said:


> I think cropping is a personal choice. I would never own a natural earred (or undocked) Dobe.. I think they look like **** Hounds.


No, they don't. They look like Dobermans. Cropped ears change the way they look and just because we are used to it doesn't mean natural ears makes them look like another breed. There is a reason Europe doesn't allow cropping.

I know folks with Dobies who live in certain areas insist on natural ears so they don't get in trouble with insurance and their neighbors aren't freaked out because their dogs look like "dobies."

And don't greyhounds have skinny tails? I don't think they get their tails cropped as a matter of course. My dachshund has a really skinny tail, also.

My Doberman with cropped ears had terrible infections - the vet said the worst she has ever seen. It wasn't the ears, it was the food. He hasn't had an infection since we went to raw.

AND my dachshund with floppy ears - no infection since we went to raw. i was having to wash her ears every day and I never do that any more. I don't think it's the shape of the ears that are the problem.

I do think there are lots worse people do to dogs. But it needs to be called what it is - mutilation.


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## kady05

xellil said:


> No, they don't. They look like Dobermans. Cropped ears change the way they look and just because we are used to it doesn't mean natural ears makes them look like another breed. There is a reason Europe doesn't allow cropping.
> 
> I know folks with Dobies who live in certain areas insist on natural ears so they don't get in trouble with insurance and their neighbors aren't freaked out because their dogs look like "dobies."


Well, I personally think they look like Hounds with natural ears. 

And I could care less if someone is freaked out by my dog solely based on his ears.. those aren't the type of people I would want to associate with anyway! As for insurance purposes, I don't see how ear cropping could effect if a company will cover you or not. If we go by your thinking, Dobe's with natural ears look like Dobe's, so in the insurance companies mind, it's still a Dobe no matter what.


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## nikkiluvsu15

Well, I prefer that the breed be kept like it has been since the Vizsla breed was first "introduced". I mean - at least they haven't changed very much throughout and there isn't a spilt. Unlike the Lab who has seen a major spilt and they look like two different breeds (which I personally love both "types", but I'm used to more moderate ones).

In other words - I'd rather a Vizsla look like its supposed to and be the breed they have been, than trying to change the breed for the "better" and end up with a Vizsla that doesn't look like a Vizsla or introduce major health problems. JMO (and I know many will disagree, but whatever).

Looking at todays V's (the well-bred ones) and ones from the past.... they haven't changed very much at all, even they were docked back then.
http://annianvizslas.com/PDFs/HungarianVizsla937KB.pdf
http://annianvizslas.com/PDFs/VizslaAmericasGoldenDog480k.pdf

Okay so the above is more because I think they are interesting.... and really love how the V hasn't changed much at all.


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## xellil

Because if you make a claim and an insurance rep comes to your house and he sees a Doberman you might get your insurance cancelled. If he sees a **** dog you won't. Many companies won't insure houses with Dobermans, but no company excludes people with hound dogs.


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## kady05

xellil said:


> Because if you make a claim and an insurance rep comes to your house and he sees a Doberman you might get your insurance cancelled. If he sees a **** dog you won't. Many companies won't insure houses with Dobermans, but no company excludes people with hound dogs.


So now you're saying they DO look like Hounds with natural ears? LOL.


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## minnieme

I think we're all aware of how little insurance companies know about dog breeds. Did you read Linsey's story about Annie (boxer) being mistaken for a pit/pit mix and almost having her insurance cancelled?? Arguing on behalf of insurance companies means you think they know about various breeds, which most of them don't. 

A lot of people think dogs look "meaner" with cropped ears -- which I realize is a misconception but it's a pretty broad mentality. Ex: My friend has two rescue Great Danes, both fawn colored and look very much alike, but people ALWAYS gravitate towards the floppy eared one...and shy away from the one with cropped ears. Insurance companies can pick up on that fear and probably hold a lot of misconceptions themselves. Anyway, what I'm trying to say is that arguing about insurance company policies is pretty much a moot point -- they're all pretty uneducated about dogs.


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## xellil

Nope, I'm saying hounds look like Dobermans!! I am one of the scofflaws who has an illegal dog according to my insurance company. If i have to make an insurance claim, I will hide him from them. But if he had natural ears and tail, I wouldn't worry about it at all. 

Funny how that one ear chop changes a dog from a good family pet into a potential killer.

Actually, I think Dobermans have alot of greyhound in them. I hadn't seen a real live greyhound until recently when I met some at a rescue event. I was amazed at how much they looked like my Dobie.


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## lauren43

minnieme said:


> I think we're all aware of how little insurance companies know about dog breeds. Did you read Linsey's story about Annie (boxer) being mistaken for a pit/pit mix and almost having her insurance cancelled?? Arguing on behalf of insurance companies means you think they know about various breeds, which most of them don't.
> 
> A lot of people think dogs look "meaner" with cropped ears -- which I realize is a misconception but it's a pretty broad mentality. Ex: My friend has two rescue Great Danes, both fawn colored and look very much alike, but people ALWAYS gravitate towards the floppy eared one...and shy away from the one with cropped ears. Insurance companies can pick up on that fear and probably hold a lot of misconceptions themselves. Anyway, what I'm trying to say is that arguing about insurance company policies is pretty much a moot point -- they're all pretty uneducated about dogs.


Thats exactly what I was going to say about the cropped ears!

I think its aweful that insurance companies will cancel you because of the breed of dog you own. It baffles my mind...if they are going to cancel you for a dog then they should cancel you for having a pool or a gun for that matter...


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## xellil

minnieme said:


> A lot of people think dogs look "meaner" with cropped ears -- which I realize is a misconception but it's a pretty broad mentality.


Exactly. People use alot of excuses to crop, but in the end that's what it is in most cases.


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## magicre

danes, without the cropping of course.....don't get ear infections do they?


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## Caty M

Kady, you may not have had to post the ears because Sako has a short crop, not a long show crop for dobes and danes. Sometimes they never fully stand. 









(He's gorgeous by the way!!!)

VS









or


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## xellil

lauren43 said:


> I think its aweful that insurance companies will cancel you because of the breed of dog you own. It baffles my mind...if they are going to cancel you for a dog then they should cancel you for having a pool or a gun for that matter...


when I got the insurance company I have now, I had a dog that was Dobermany/houndy looking. They insisted on coming to look at him. he was a large 65 pound dog and didn't look a whole lot different than my current Dobie - I have no doubt if his ears had been cropped they would have not accepted me. But because he didn't, they labelled him "beagle cross" in their paperwork so I wouldn't get refused for insurance.

It's so ignorant.


----------



## kady05

Caty M said:


> Kady, you may not have had to post the ears because Sako has a short crop, not a long show crop for dobes and danes. Sometimes they never fully stand.


Yes I got lucky, my breeders vet is awesome and she has never had to post any ears. Her friends with pups all have to post them, definitely not as long as Dobe & Dane owners do though!

My insurance company has no issue with my dogs (I have State Farm). Having CGC's on all 3 of them is helpful, but they told me as long as none of them have ever bitten anyone, it's not a problem.


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## minnieme

magicre said:


> danes, without the cropping of course.....don't get ear infections do they?


I think diet does play the biggest role in ear infections, but I admit I am very watchful of Minnie's ears. So far no ear infections. I'd much rather have to deal with an ear infection if and when it pops up then slice up her ears as a preventative measure. While ear infections CAN be painful the further along they get, it's usually pretty easy to spot and can be cleared up quickly -- and is more of an annoyance than anything. I've never heard of a dane that has recurring ear infection issues. I'm not saying it doesn't happen, but it's definitely not a widespread problem.


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## GoingPostal

Compared to some of the things we've done to dogs for looks, I don't see cropping as that serious, look at all the pushed in face breeds who have to worry about dropping dead in the heat because we like the look, spaniels with their brains outgrowing their skulls, ridgebacks, dwarfism in bassets and doxies, etc. I wouldn't crop my dogs, seems like a waste of money and extra risk putting them under but I don't care if other people do there's properly, by a vet who knows what he's doing. I do think it makes dogs seem more "aggressive" to the public though.


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## DaneMama

kady05 said:


> That argument is the biggest load of crap ever, sorry. Sako is completely able to communicate with cropped ears.. in fact, I think he's better at communicating how he's feeling with them.


This may be just YOUR dog. But dogs in general don't communicate well when body parts have been surgically altered. It is a fact in the world of dog behavior and communication. Not to mention you're adding in there that you THINK he does...how would you know for sure? 



> Sako is my first cropped dog. I wasn't sure if I wanted to have it done at first, but went ahead and let the breeder take him to her vet for the surgery. I picked him up 2 days after, he was bouncing around acting like a perfectly normal pup (no pain meds). She sent me a video of him the night after surgery and he was playing with a toy acting just fine. So while I realize there is some pain involved, I don't think it's nearly as painful as some would like to make it out to be.
> 
> I also never had to post or tape his ears. Took the stitches out after 7 days and was done. Only thing I had to do was point ointment on his ears, which he never minded..


Hmmm....not as painful as some make it out to be. Dogs naturally have a higher pain threshold. Its instinct to them because showing pain is a sign of weakness and their inner "wolf" knows to minimize this. So dogs are naturally stoic, even puppies who just had their ears chopped off. Still doesn't justify the act of removing body parts for cosmetic reasons. 

You are VERY lucky to have had such a short and easy post op care. With MOST crop jobs, that isn't the case...at least not with Danes and Dobes because of the longer crop job. Posting can last weeks, months, years even. Not to mention infection, seborrhea, death (more puppies are lost during crop jobs than you even want to know!) and ultimately a failed crop job...whats the point of all that trouble if they wont stand? I've known several show Danes that are retired very young just because their ears wont stand right. How idiotic is that? If they would have kept the ears natural, the dog would have continued in the show ring! 





magicre said:


> danes, without the cropping of course.....don't get ear infections do they?


All three of my Danes have never had an ear infection. But like Minnieme posted, I think its due to diet more so than anything. Usually ear infections start out as a fungal infection with a secondary bacterial infection. Its true that some floppy ears create a moist environment for yeast to grow, but if you cut off the food source for the yeast to survive on, then BOOM...no more ear infections. Rarely are ear infections JUST bacterial, but they do happen and they tend to be more severe.



GoingPostal said:


> Compared to some of the things we've done to dogs for looks, I don't see cropping as that serious, look at all the pushed in face breeds who have to worry about dropping dead in the heat because we like the look, spaniels with their brains outgrowing their skulls, ridgebacks, dwarfism in bassets and doxies, etc. I wouldn't crop my dogs, seems like a waste of money and extra risk putting them under but I don't care if other people do there's properly, by a vet who knows what he's doing. I do think it makes dogs seem more "aggressive" to the public though.


I will agree with you on the brachycephallic breeds. BUT they were also created by humans...just like humans are the ones who surgically alter dogs. I've said it before, I think that some serious outcrossing needs to be done on certain breeds to bring them back to at least moderate health.


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## Unosmom

I like my dog floppy eared


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## kady05

DaneMama said:


> This may be just YOUR dog. But dogs in general don't communicate well when body parts have been surgically altered. It is a fact in the world of dog behavior and communication. Not to mention you're adding in there that you THINK he does...how would you know for sure?
> 
> *Well, considering I've been around numerous dogs with cropped ears, all of whom communicated just fine with their ears, I don't think it's just Sako. When I said "I think" I meant, I think he communicates better WITH cropped ears than my other two dogs with natural ears. His ears are like little radar detectors, you always know how he's feeling based on them. My friends Rottie who has a docked tail is the same way, does just fine with other dogs and it's pretty hard to misunderstand a dog with its entire back end wiggling!*
> 
> Hmmm....not as painful as some make it out to be. Dogs naturally have a higher pain threshold. Its instinct to them because showing pain is a sign of weakness and their inner "wolf" knows to minimize this. So dogs are naturally stoic, even puppies who just had their ears chopped off. Still doesn't justify the act of removing body parts for cosmetic reasons.
> 
> *Stoic and Sako are two words that should never go together LOL. He is by far the wussiest dog I have. However, Wilson cried the entire night after his neuter.. cried and cried, and didn't want to walk for the entire next day. Definitely more traumatic (to him anyway) than Sako's night after he was cropped.*
> 
> You are VERY lucky to have had such a short and easy post op care. With MOST crop jobs, that isn't the case...at least not with Danes and Dobes because of the longer crop job. Posting can last weeks, months, years even. Not to mention infection, seborrhea, death (more puppies are lost during crop jobs than you even want to know!) and ultimately a failed crop job...whats the point of all that trouble if they wont stand? I've known several show Danes that are retired very young just because their ears wont stand right. How idiotic is that? If they would have kept the ears natural, the dog would have continued in the show ring!
> 
> *Yes, I was lucky. Although, all of Sako's siblings had the same type of recovery and required no posting. My friends Dane (the one I posted a picture of) certainly never seemed to mind when she re-taped his ears though. It took her at the most 2 months of posting til his ears were done.
> 
> Cropping will always be a hot topic, kind of like how cosmetic surgery for people is a hot topic. If you want to have your dogs ears cropped, find a good vet and do it. If you don't like the look of cropped ears, then by all means, leave them natural! Like others have said, there are PLENTY of worse fates for a dog.*


My replies in bold.


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## schtuffy

I think danes and dobermans look beautiful and graceful with the crop, not mean. But knowing what the procedure entails, no, I would not do it. I prefer pointy ears over floppy ears, so that's why I got a dog that was born with them! :biggrin:


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## swolek

Dude and Bucks Mamma said:


> From my experience with 3 dobermans, they are a breed prone to ear infections..


I know you don't intend to crop your future dog but I'm curious. If you think cropping is acceptable to breeds prone to ear infections (though I've found that chronic ear infections are due to diet/allergies 99% of the time) then why aren't the breeds who are legitimately prone to them not cropped? Do you think they should be? It's well-known that Cockers are prone to ear infections but no one crops Cockers at birth. Instead, Cocker people try to find solutions which has lead to many owners trying raw diets and making ear washes (the best one out there was made by a Cocker breeder, ha). Plus keeping the fur on the inside of the ear trimmed.

Sorry, it's just bizarre to me that someone would remove a body part from a puppy to "prevent" something that may never happen, can be solved using other methods, and might happen even to a cropped dog anyway.


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## chowder

Unosmom said:


> I like my dog floppy eared


I have to agree with you !! I love the pointy ears on Chows, but I spend every evening playing with Shade's floppy ears!! Sometimes its a wonder the poor dog has any hair left on his ears! There's just something relaxing about sitting there with a floppy eared dog on the couch and messing with his ears. I couldn't imagine anyone cutting those off when he was a little guy. They're so soft and silky and totally fun to mess with!


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## prntmkr

Personally, I have mixed feelings over ear-cropping, as I have seen (other people's) dogs which have been butchered. 

Cropping is not a option with our chosen breed, the Black Russian Terrier. Aesthetically, it would not (IMO) be an improvement. However, for practical reasons, if it _were_ an option, I would opt to have the ears done ...

My own experience with both cropped and natural ears is that yes, cropped ears_ definitely _stay cleaner, and are_ far _less prone to ear infections. 

It's also my firm belief that, generally speaking, dogs with upright or cropped ears _hear _better than their floppy-eared counterparts; this, I strongly suspect, is why there are no wild dog relatives, (canine, lupine or vulpine - that I know of, anyways) with floppy ears. 

With some notable exceptions in breeds that were actually bred to work (the Bassett Hound and BRT come immediately to mind), floppy ears were bred in, _not_ because they posed any particular advantage(s) to the dog, but simply because they looked "cute". 

And lastly, back at the Dobermans for a moment:
_Many_ (not all) Dobes have _paper-thin ear leather_! Their floppy ears are _highly_ vulnerable to tearing.


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## xellil

I have read that sniffing dogs, like Bassett and bloodhounds, actually have good use of the floppy ears because they gather the scent toward their nose.

And I havent' seen a Doberman with paper-thin ears. They are very soft, silky, and functional ears that wouldn't be any more prone to tearing than any other dog I've had with floppy ears.


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## swolek

prntmkr said:


> Personally, I have mixed feelings over ear-cropping, as I have seen (other people's) dogs which have been butchered.
> 
> Cropping is not a option with our chosen breed, the Black Russian Terrier. Aesthetically, it would not (IMO) be an improvement. However, for practical reasons, if it _were_ an option, I would opt to have the ears done ...
> 
> My own experience with both cropped and natural ears is that yes, cropped ears_ definitely _stay cleaner, and are_ far _less prone to ear infections.
> 
> It's also my firm belief that, generally speaking, dogs with upright or cropped ears _hear _better than their floppy-eared counterparts; this, I strongly suspect, is why there are no wild dog relatives, (canine, lupine or vulpine - that I know of, anyways) with floppy ears.
> 
> With some notable exceptions in breeds that were actually bred to work (the Bassett Hound and BRT come immediately to mind), floppy ears were bred in, _not_ because they posed any particular advantage(s) to the dog, but simply because they looked "cute".
> 
> And lastly, back at the Dobermans for a moment:
> _Many_ (not all) Dobes have _paper-thin ear leather_! Their floppy ears are _highly_ vulnerable to tearing.


Floppy ears are actually just a result of domestication because it's a trait linked to what could be called the "tameness genes" or "domestication genes". It's not necessarily because it's a terrible trait to have in the wild or because we tried to get "cute" ears (not originally, anyway!).

Anyway, let's say that floppy ears are deemed unnatural and a bad trait for a dog to have. Should we straighten the tail of a Spitz? The kind of tail that curves over the back is also linked with domestication and is "unnatural". I could probably come up with an argument as to why it would be a bad trait to have "in the wild", too.

You know, friendliness towards humans is pretty unnatural for a wolf descendent. What a terrible trait to have in the wild! We should breed meaner dogs. I know that last one was ridiculous but it's a steep slope when you start playing the "unnatural" card with an animal that's anything BUT "natural"! If natural means without human intervention.


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## minnieme

prntmkr said:


> And lastly, back at the Dobermans for a moment:
> _Many_ (not all) Dobes have _paper-thin ear leather_! Their floppy ears are _highly_ vulnerable to tearing.


Minnie's ears are as thin as any doberman I've ever met, but I don't have constant fears of them tearing. She's not a boar hunter like her ancestors and she doesn't often run through thorny brush (although she does romp through fields and the woods at the dog park). Her tail is also incredibly thin but I wouldn't think of willingly docking it for a second.


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## CorgiPaws

Dude and Bucks Mamma said:


> See, Linsey... Personal attacks are not appreciated.
> 
> Notice that I also said that although my next dog will be a dane, I will more than likely (meaning that I am 99.9% sure I will NOT crop) not crop his ears because more and more natural eared danes are doing well in the ring and I would love for my boy to contribute to creating healthier danes.
> 
> 
> Don't jump on people for something that happened 10 years ago.


I was not making a personal attack on you, but rather using another example to show how much sense the logic behind the argument made. 
I don't find it logical to remove part of Dog B's body because Dog A has issues. 
That's like me going and having my leg removed because there was a story in the paper about a guy losing his in an accident. It makes no sense. 

But out of curiosity, if you're such a firm believer in there being so many benefits, why NOT crop your next dog? 




prntmkr said:


> Cropping is not a option with our chosen breed, the Black Russian Terrier. Aesthetically, it would not (IMO) be an improvement. However, for practical reasons, if it _were_ an option, I would opt to have the ears done ...
> 
> My own experience with both cropped and natural ears is that yes, cropped ears_ definitely _stay cleaner, and are_ far _less prone to ear infections.
> 
> It's also my firm belief that, generally speaking, dogs with upright or cropped ears _hear _better than their floppy-eared counterparts; this, I strongly suspect, is why there are no wild dog relatives, (canine, lupine or vulpine - that I know of, anyways) with floppy ears.


Why is cropping not an option for your breed? Because it's not the standard set by the parent club? I you feel that it would have health benefits, why would a standard set by someone else prevent you from making a decision that you feel is best for your dog?

I think them hearing better is a load of crap. Floppy dogs hear just fine. 



I have seen SOME crops that look great. Most don't... but some do. I think Sako is too handsome for his own good, but it doesn't make me like the process any more. I think Boxers particularly look really stupid with cropped ears. 

While dogs are just fine generally when they go home, what the owner generally does NOT witness is the puppy waking up from the crop, screaming in agony, thrashing and pawing at their head, sometimes with blood all over if they succesfully paw the bandage off. 
It is in a dog's nature to hide pain. In their world pain is weakness and weakness is death. To think that handling raw, stitched, or otherwise wounded flesh causes no pain to the dog is nuts. 

To say a dog with natural ears does not look like their breed is so backwards I wish I could count the things wrong with that statement. A Dobie, Boxer, Dane, etc. is born looking as they should. Just because some people are used to seeing mutilated dogs, does not mean that's what the breed is supposed to look like. Surgically altering a dog does not make it look like a [fill in the blank] it makes it look like a modified version of [fill in the blank]. Huge difference. 

A Great Dane puppy looks something like:









A MODIFIED Great dane puppy looks something like:









Both, IMO are cute. I have a personal preference of natural, and I HATE the process of cropped.


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## KittyKat

I think cropped ears look dumb. You can tell someone went at them with a knife. Not even getting into the whole cutting up your dog for looks bit.

The closest my dog will get to that look is when she's running full tilt.










I like my dog natural. Natural fed, natural look. Healthy and whole.


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## Celt

I don't like cropping because it involves putting a pup under for a procedure that generally serves no real purpose. Dewclaw removal is a "useful" surgery, (imo) in that many dogs end up ripping, snagging or some how injury it and the "difficulty" of keeping that nail trimmed. As far as docking, I don't mind it one way or another. It's usually a quick, fairly painless procedure (if done correctly). There are breeds whose "jobs" and "tail types" do not mix. A lot of "hunting" dogs were used in "brush" where a waving tail could smack into things and break. Sighthounds with their whippy tails were used in more open areas (and I've learned from various sources that they do break easily). Personal experience, I came home one day and found Blaise with a swollen "lump" on his tail. He'd broken it, I wouldn't have notice it except I've gotten into the habit of running my hands all over him everyday. It didn't seem to bother him though and it healed mostly straight.


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## xellil

I am almost embarrassed to show a photo of my dog amidst all these natural eared dogs, but he is a good example of a crop job that didn't work. They were obviously not a homemade job but they don't stand up - and they are small, not cropped long. I hate it because he's got these little stubs where ears should be and Dobermans in their natural state have these gorgeous, soft ears. It just makes me sad that someone mutilated him like this.










And it proves I'm not a good housekeeper - YES that is an unmade bed!!!


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## CorgiPaws

xellil said:


> I am almost embarrassed to show a photo of my dog amidst all these natural eared dogs, but he is a good example of a crop job that didn't work. They were obviously not a homemade job but they don't stand up - and they are small, not cropped long. I hate it because he's got these little stubs where ears should be and Dobermans in their natural state have these gorgeous, soft ears. It just makes me sad that someone mutilated him like this.
> 
> And it proves I'm not a good housekeeper - YES that is an unmade bed!!!


Don't be embarrassed! You did not do it to him, and what matters is he has an awesome loving home that loves him even with his stubby ears! :tongue:



I also forgot to mention in my last post, I'm not sure where insurance companies become relevant on the topic of ear cropping. They are not the best source for determing what breed your dog looks like or not. According to GMAC, my natural eared brindle Boxer is a Pit. 


















Yeah... I'm really not sure how she could look any more Boxer. :wacko: I actually had to send her registration papers in to prove she was in fact a Boxer. The Boxer face, Boxer nose, Boxer mouth, Boxer body, Boxer personality... clearly, were not enough. They saw her through the window, it's not like she was out causing problems... she is far from aggressive with new people. In fact, dontcha know everyone was put on this planet for her enjoyment? She thinks so, anyway.


----------



## SerenityFL

kady05 said:


> Well, I personally think they look like Hounds with natural ears.
> 
> And I could care less if someone is freaked out by my dog solely based on his ears.. those aren't the type of people I would want to associate with anyway! As for insurance purposes, I don't see how ear cropping could effect if a company will cover you or not. If we go by your thinking, Dobe's with natural ears look like Dobe's, so in the insurance companies mind, it's still a Dobe no matter what.


It's not that they are freaked out by your dog based solely on his ears, they are freaked out by anyone who would DO THAT to their dog. And I have to agree with them.

If you want a dog with ears that stand up, then get a dog whose ears stand up naturally. Mutilating a dog for your own "preference" is cruel and selfish.


----------



## xellil

And of course we all know a boxer would never bite anyone, so as a pit bull that exact same dog is dangerous but as a boxer that makes it ok! ha ha. Idiot insurance companies.


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## Unosmom

> I have to agree with you !! I love the pointy ears on Chows, but I spend every evening playing with Shade's floppy ears!! Sometimes its a wonder the poor dog has any hair left on his ears! There's just something relaxing about sitting there with a floppy eared dog on the couch and messing with his ears. I couldn't imagine anyone cutting those off when he was a little guy. They're so soft and silky and totally fun to mess with!


Oh I know, Uno has the softest velvety ears I have ever felt, everyone always wants to play with his ears, I cant imagine him without them. I wish his tail wasnt docked either. It was a home job and they pinched a nerve or something in the process, it often bothers him and when hes anxious, he starts nibbling on it.


----------



## Porphyria

swolek said:


> Floppy ears are actually just a result of domestication because it's a trait linked to what could be called the "tameness genes" or "domestication genes". It's not necessarily because it's a terrible trait to have in the wild or because we tried to get "cute" ears (not originally, anyway!).
> 
> Anyway, let's say that floppy ears are deemed unnatural and a bad trait for a dog to have. Should we straighten the tail of a Spitz? The kind of tail that curves over the back is also linked with domestication and is "unnatural". I could probably come up with an argument as to why it would be a bad trait to have "in the wild", too.
> 
> You know, friendliness towards humans is pretty unnatural for a wolf descendent. What a terrible trait to have in the wild! We should breed meaner dogs. I know that last one was ridiculous but it's a steep slope when you start playing the "unnatural" card with an animal that's anything BUT "natural"! If natural means without human intervention.


That's a really great point. There is an experiment in Russia that has been going on for many years, in which they are attempting to breed truly domesticated foxes. They're learning a lot about the evolution of canines and domestic animals as a whole because of it. One of the things they've found is that some of the newer generations of these domestic foxes have floppier ears and other "cute" traits. They weren't intentionally breeding for these ears, they turned out to be a "side effect" of the domestication for some lines. So not every trait we see in a given breed was necessarily selected for. Off topic, but I thought it was an interesting side note. And I agree that "not natural" hereditary traits are not bad as long as the trait isn't linked with health issues. Dogs are such an unnatulal species, how do we even determine what's"natural"for them?

S for the original question...I don't really have an opinion on danes or boxers, but I prefer the look of cropped dobes and I love the looks of a cropped amstaf (Sako is gorgeous!) That said, I could never bring myself to surgically alter a dog for purely aesthetic reasons (I don't know enough about the infection issue to weigh in there). But if I was going to adopt an amstaff rom a shelter/rescue, I would probably be more inclined to go for one with cropped ears simply because that is the appearance I'm more drawn to.


----------



## CorgiPaws

xellil said:


> And of course we all know a boxer would never bite anyone, so as a pit bull that exact same dog is dangerous but as a boxer that makes it ok! ha ha. Idiot insurance companies.


I'm with you there, it SHOULDN'T matter if she was a pit. It was really freaking annoying to be told my homeowners insurance was being revoked for a reason that wasn't even true. They asked about pets when we bought the house, and I told them I had a Boxer, and a few Danes. I guess if you're REALLY dumb you might think Annie is something else but it should have been right there that we have a Boxer!

Next, I'll be accused of having horses on the property. LOL


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## hmbutler

PuppyPaws said:


> I'm with you there, it SHOULDN'T matter if she was a pit. It was really freaking annoying to be told my homeowners insurance was being revoked for a reason that wasn't even true. They asked about pets when we bought the house, and I told them I had a Boxer, and a few Danes. I guess if you're REALLY dumb you might think Annie is something else but it should have been right there that we have a Boxer!
> 
> Next, I'll be accused of having horses on the property. LOL


Why do pets matter to your insurance? Does your insurance cover liability over your dog biting people? Our home insurance just covers our home and contents against fire, theft, etc lol, nothing that our pets can have an effect on (in actual fact, a dog should minimise the risk of theft, so I should be getting a discount haha)


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## CorgiPaws

hmbutler said:


> Why do pets matter to your insurance? Does your insurance cover liability over your dog biting people? Our home insurance just covers our home and contents against fire, theft, etc lol, nothing that our pets can have an effect on (in actual fact, a dog should minimise the risk of theft, so I should be getting a discount haha)


I don't know the complete answer to that. It may have to do with the fact we are technically not the home owner. (Because I own a business and certain things can pierce the cooperate veil, my home is legally in my Grandfather's name, he bought it from the bank with cash and I pay my mortgage with interest to him, but should anything ever happen with my business, no one can come after my house.) But when we got our policy, I had to give breed info on the dogs, as well as any bite history (there was none) and they would not cover anyone with certain breeds.


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## xellil

I think it's just the company - I had to do the same and i am owner of the house. I guess there is no opt-out here if your dog bites someone and they sue. 

I asked the insurance company when they were balking at my mixed breed dog if I could just sign something that said they weren't liable for anything he does, and they said no.

Which seems crazy as they refuse to pay for alot of stuff. Seems like they could do the same for dog bites.


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## hmbutler

xellil said:


> I think it's just the company - I had to do the same and i am owner of the house. I guess there is no opt-out here if your dog bites someone and they sue.
> 
> I asked the insurance company when they were balking at my mixed breed dog if I could just sign something that said they weren't liable for anything he does, and they said no.
> 
> Which seems crazy as they refuse to pay for alot of stuff. Seems like they could do the same for dog bites.


Yeah I was just confused because if my dog bit someone and they sued, I wouldn't be covered by my household insurance, so my dog makes no difference to my insurance. I think you can get some sort of personal liability insurance, don't know if it covers dog bites (most people get it when they run a business, to cover them doing anything on the job that could sued over).


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## xellil

I think it falls under some blanket personal injury clause - if someone trips on your steps and breaks their leg, for example. 

We are just totally sue happy in the US. In fact, alot of people make a living out of filing lawsuits. I knew a couple a few years ago who worked in a little town at a grocery and both got injured on the job. They got disability until it ran out, got another job, and got injured within two weeks of starting. And then did it a third time. We moved away before the fourth time. What a scam.

I know darn well I stayed far away from them for fear they would sue me for something.

And this was a very small town - there were only about 10 places to work! I wondered if the store owners ever spoke to each other.


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## MollyWoppy

When we got offered outtake insurance from a company other than Citizens, (the State established, not for profit insurance co), one of the first questions they asked me was do we have a dog. When I said yes, the next question was, what breed? I told them ACD cross. Then asked them why it mattered. They told me that there was a list of about 10 breeds that, should we own one, they would refuse to insure us at all. As it is, we are not covered for any liability or damage done by my dog. I feel so sorry for those with German Shepherds, Dobes, Pitbulls and others on the 'banned' list as it's just so hard to get insurance down here, and so bloody expensive as well. 
I should add that we've had one massive claim, plus we live in a high risk area, we're screwed every which way.


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## kady05

SerenityFL said:


> It's not that they are freaked out by your dog based solely on his ears, they are freaked out by anyone who would DO THAT to their dog. And I have to agree with them.
> 
> If you want a dog with ears that stand up, then get a dog whose ears stand up naturally. Mutilating a dog for your own "preference" is cruel and selfish.


I've had people tell me they're afraid of dogs with cropped ears because they're "meaner".. so no, I don't think the general public shies away from cropped earred dogs because of the "OMG WHAT DID THAT PERSON DO?!" factor. Working with shelter dogs, I have heard that same "mean" story over and over again. Not sure how people can associate temperament with a dogs ears, but hey, most people aren't very bright anyway. 

If someone wants to base their entire opinion of me solely on one of my dogs ears, then so be it. Pretty close-minded, if you ask me.


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## SerenityFL

kady05 said:


> I've had people tell me they're afraid of dogs with cropped ears because they're "meaner".. so no, I don't think the general public shies away from cropped earred dogs because of the "OMG WHAT DID THAT PERSON DO?!" factor. Working with shelter dogs, I have heard that same "mean" story over and over again. Not sure how people can associate temperament with a dogs ears, *but hey, most people aren't very bright anyway. *
> 
> If someone wants to base their entire opinion of me solely on one of my dogs ears, then so be it. Pretty close-minded, if you ask me.


Well I agree with you about the part I bolded.


----------



## GoingPostal

PuppyPaws said:


> Yeah... I'm really not sure how she could look any more Boxer. :wacko: I actually had to send her registration papers in to prove she was in fact a Boxer. The Boxer face, Boxer nose, Boxer mouth, Boxer body, Boxer personality... clearly, were not enough. They saw her through the window, it's not like she was out causing problems... she is far from aggressive with new people. In fact, dontcha know everyone was put on this planet for her enjoyment? She thinks so, anyway.


Your pup is beautiful! If it makes you feel any better, I've been told my dogs are nice looking boxers, we get asked all the time why their tails aren't "cropped". Well maybe it's because they aren't boxers and you don't "crop" tails idiot. And if they _were_ boxers, they wouldn't be nice looking ones at all. On the cropping topic, my cropped girl is the only dog who gets ear infections, but maybe because they are far too short and she almost has no ear on one side.


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## CorgiPaws

GoingPostal said:


> Your pup is beautiful! If it makes you feel any better, I've been told my dogs are nice looking boxers, we get asked all the time why their tails aren't "cropped". Well maybe it's because they aren't boxers and you don't "crop" tails idiot. And if they _were_ boxers, they wouldn't be nice looking ones at all. On the cropping topic, my cropped girl is the only dog who gets ear infections, but maybe because they are far too short and she almost has no ear on one side.


Thank you, I'm quite partial to her myself!
You have very good looking dogs, but you're right, they don't make very "nice looking Boxers" LOL.


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## prntmkr

swolek said:


> Floppy ears are actually just a result of domestication because it's a trait linked to what could be called the "tameness genes" or "domestication genes". It's not necessarily because it's a terrible trait to have in the wild or because we tried to get "cute" ears (not originally, anyway!).


Yes... the floppy ears occurred as a direct result of domestication. 
The point was that, aside from human aesthetic tastes, 
floppy ears were simply not an evolutionary advantage, 
which is why we do not see them in the wild.



PuppyPaws said:


> Why is cropping not an option for your breed?


Good question ...
Floppy ears helped keep the driving Siberian snows out of the dogs' ears. 
BRT's are never cropped.



PuppyPaws said:


> I you feel that it would have health benefits, why would a standard set by someone else prevent you from making a decision that you feel is best for your dog?


Another good question ...
A good breeder would _never_ crop the ears of his/her BRT puppy. 
And regardless, any potential health benefits are not sufficient for me 
to put an older puppy through what, at that point would be, major surgery. 



PuppyPaws said:


> I think them hearing better is a load of crap. Floppy dogs hear just fine.


Sorry. I can't hear you. :becky:
Whilst, for example, watching T.V.:
Try lightly covering your ears with your hands ...
Now, try cupping your ear as if you were hard of hearing.
See (or rather, "hear") if that makes any difference.
Wild dogs ears are shaped to catch sounds.

It's certainly not that floppy-eared dogs cannot hear well;
it's just that they could hear better with appropriately shaped ears.



PuppyPaws said:


> I have a personal preference of natural, and I HATE the process of cropped.


Really?!? 
And you have hidden that fact so well! :biggrin1:




minnieme said:


> Minnie's ears are as thin as any doberman I've ever met, but I don't have constant fears of them tearing...


It seems that you haven't met all that many Dobies. 
Go on a Doberman forum and ask there. op2:

Ciao, y'all! :smile:


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## minnieme

prntmkr said:


> It seems that you haven't met all that many Dobies.
> Go on a Doberman forum and ask there. op2:
> 
> Ciao, y'all! :smile:




What do you want me to ask them exactly?


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## RachelsaurusRexU

Poor Romeo was already cropped pretty short (kind of a hack job) when I adopted him and is my only dog who suffered from frequent ear infections. However, he's now been raw fed for just over thirteen months and it's been several months since he's had one! 

I don't dislike the look of cropped ears, but would not have it done to a dog. For some reason I find myself drawn to rescue pit bulls with cropped ears...but not because I think it looks tough. Quite the opposite. To me, it gives them a sort of endearing "I've been through hell, please love me" thing. There's an urgent boy in one of the local shelters who has almost NO ears and looks like a little sea lion. I want to pull him so bad, but don't have another foster at the moment :-/

Don't get me wrong, I'm in no way saying that I think every or even most dogs with cropped ears have remotely crappy lives, I just mean that when it comes to shelter dogs in need, there's something very sad that draws me to cropped dogs. I don't even know if I'm making sense. It's been a long day.


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## hmbutler

kady05 said:


> I've had people tell me they're afraid of dogs with cropped ears because they're "meaner".. so no, I don't think the general public shies away from cropped earred dogs because of the "OMG WHAT DID THAT PERSON DO?!" factor. Working with shelter dogs, I have heard that same "mean" story over and over again. Not sure how people can associate temperament with a dogs ears, but hey,* most people aren't very bright anyway. *
> 
> If someone wants to base their entire opinion of me solely on one of my dogs ears, then so be it. Pretty close-minded, if you ask me.


haha I'm obviously not that bright then because I posted on an early page about that being my impression of a cropped dog. I don't know what it is, and it's not so much that they look "mean" but I cant think of how to describe it. Maybe its because their ears are so perked up (in a way that looks unnatural to me) it makes me think they're more alert or something, so maybe thats why they seem to pose more of a threat? i honestly can't explain it, and I KNOW that a cropped dog is not necessarily a dangerous dog (the crop makes no difference) but I just think thats how they LOOK... really hard to explain lol


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## RawFedDogs

I read an article several years ago that said that people were most afraid of black dogs whose ears stood up and least afraid of light colored dogs with floppy ears. All the other combinations fell in between.


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## hmbutler

RawFedDogs said:


> I read an article several years ago that said that people were most afraid of black dogs whose ears stood up and least afraid of light colored dogs with floppy ears. All the other combinations fell in between.


that sounds about right... in terms of misconceptions, not in terms of whats true lol

Honestly I think if I was walking down the street and was faced with a black dog with its ears up (doberman for example) I'd be pretty scared, but if I was faced with a beagle, I highly doubt I would be. But then again I'm always pretty cautious about strange dogs that are out on their own, so maybe anything would scare me! lol


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## chowder

RawFedDogs said:


> I read an article several years ago that said that people were most afraid of black dogs whose ears stood up and least afraid of light colored dogs with floppy ears. All the other combinations fell in between.


Well, that certainly holds true with my bunch. People were terrified of my black chow in my avatar (black with pointy ears) No body even offered to come near him. But they all want to hug on Rocky because he is white and fluffy (until he gives them the 'stare'). Everyone comes up to Rocky and wants to pet him. Shade is a conundrum......all he wants to do is LOVE them and he has those big eyes and floppy ears but then he has the blocky head look so they end up not sure what to do.


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## kady05

hmbutler said:


> haha I'm obviously not that bright then because I posted on an early page about that being my impression of a cropped dog. I don't know what it is, and it's not so much that they look "mean" but I cant think of how to describe it. Maybe its because their ears are so perked up (in a way that looks unnatural to me) it makes me think they're more alert or something, so maybe thats why they seem to pose more of a threat? i honestly can't explain it, and *I KNOW that a cropped dog is not necessarily a dangerous dog (the crop makes no difference)* but I just think thats how they LOOK... really hard to explain lol


Well that (bolded) shows you realize that the crop doesn't matter  I've had people come up to me in the shelter (I photograph shelter dogs) and say: "That does has it's ears cropped (or some other use of the word cropped), is it mean?" or something like that. Kind of like the people who sometimes walk up to me and ask me if Wilson is mean because he's "a red nose".. oy vey.


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## nupe

What do you want me to ask them exactly?




He wants you to ask the owners about ear infections from dogs with floppy ears specifically Doberman owners...and let me see if I read a couple of threads correctly here...Docking and dew claw removal is ok, but ear cropping is cruel and unusual punishment??..did i see that right in a couple of early posts on this thread?


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## Tahlz

Nupe, your dog is stunning!. Can you please post another two photo's?. What a looker.

Also, Nupe made a point. Why is everyone ok with tail docking and dew claws being removed but have a issue with ear cropping?. I'm sorry but to me that's calling the kettle black.*

I myself have no problem with ear cropping, I personally like it. I love ears that stand up but I also like floppy ears, it really doesn't bother me. Sunny has floppy ears while Serenity's stand up (breed trait, Kelpie x). I much prefer her ears honestly but there just ears so I really don't care.

I personally like dogs with cropped ears on certain dogs, I also liked docked tails on certain dogs. I want a Rottweiler in the future, I am hoping to get one that is born with a stubby nail. It's illegal hear to crop dogs ears and if I had the choice when I get my future bully breed, I wouldn't go crop but if I came across a dog in the shelter with cropped ears, I'd take him/her home. Though, there would be none sadly. I personally love the cropped look but I also love natural ears.

I'm not against it but I do see why so many people don't like it.


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## nupe

TY TAHLZ...and here you go!!


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## hmbutler

Tahlz said:


> Also, Nupe made a point. Why is everyone ok with tail docking and dew claws being removed but have a issue with ear cropping?. I'm sorry but to me that's calling the kettle black.


I personally don't like tail docking either, and hadn't even heard of dew claw removal until this thread. From what I very vaguely understand about it, I think dew claw removal wouldn't be quite as bad as ear cropping (or even tail docking) because it's a much more minor procedure. Yes, you are removing a part of the dogs body, but I don't think it's as bad as cutting away flesh all the way along the ear, purely for cosmetic purpose. Dew claw removal isn't for aesthetic reasons, so I think it's less of an issue for that reason. I don't know much about tail docking (what reasons it is done, etc, never had a dog who would need it done), but I kind of assume it's as painful for a dog as ear cropping so I'm not really a fan of either.




Tahlz said:


> I myself have no problem with ear cropping, I personally like it. I love ears that stand up but I also like floppy ears, it really doesn't bother me. Sunny has floppy ears while Serenity's stand up (breed trait, Kelpie x). I much prefer her ears honestly but there just ears so I really don't care.


But serenity was born with pointy ears, am I right? So there is no problem with preferring pointy or floppy, but would you like to have cropped sunny's ears, and put her through all of that as a pup, purely because you like the look? I don't like it because from everything I understand, it is done for cosmetic purposes and not for the true benefit of the dog - it's just a "looks" thing and I dont find that a good enough reason to put a dog through surgery.

Just my 2cents :smile:


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## KittyKat

I'm against tail docking and cropping ears. Dew claws I can get behind depending on the situation. My dog has a deformed one that comes in all odd which I'd like removed because it digs into her skin (ow). When she's eventually spade i'll likely have it removed at the same time.

I know as really young pups they can be removed really easily without even sedation or complaint, and for dogs involved in sport it could be good as a safety thing. My dog lure courses and I sometimes worry about it getting caught on the wire. I suppose it's high enough that it shouldn't though.

For me it's more of a circumstantial basis.


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## Caty M

Dew claws on young pup- 2 days old- are just a flap of skin.. easy to take off.


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## nikkiluvsu15

Harleigh has her front dewclaws (not back ones) and she has no issues with getting them caught or torn off. I've heard that it hurts much more and recovery is longer when you get dewclaws removed on an older adult (though I have no experience with that).

She also has super soft ears and I love them, but I think its someones own decision whether or not they want to crop/dock their dog and I'll respect that opinion. I've never had a dog that gets cropped and all the breeds that I would like to own someday either have floppy ears or pointy ears that come that way. 

Well I take that back, Rebel didn't get his ears cropped. Though we did have the option. 

















My Vizsla will be docked. Partly because it is done so young and at that age the breeder won't know which one is a fit for me and another reason is I do plan to hunt with her/him. Better safe than sorry for me, but I don't have a problem with people disagreeing. It's the way of life :smile:


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## leilaquinn

I would NEVER make this choice for my own dog (though i wouldn't hesitate to adopt an already cropped dog). I would have no need, and esthetically it just doesn't usually appeal to me, i hate that one edge stops so abrubtly, if that makes sense, it often looks like a imperfect craft project to me. I have seen plenty of exceptions, and some crops that I think look great, but I would always be too scared the vet would sneeze or something, and some dogs grow into their ears so differently than others, there are just so many things that can come out looking less than great. I also couldn't make the choice to have a young puppy put under for anything that offers no medical benefit. I think there is obviously pain for the puppy, how could there not be some? This used to seem like the cruelest thing I could think of, to willfully hurt a creature dependant on you for it's well being. I somehow don't feel as strongly as I used to. I could not live with it myself, but that's becauce I have the personal guilty emotions and logic that I do. I don't think a puppy feels betrayed or even traumatized, and they certainly don't blame anyone for the discomfort they woke up in. I think you can hurt a pups feelings much more easily by accidentally quicking a nail when they are cuddled in your lap, and what's great about most dogs is that they hold no grudge for these mistakes on our part.

I think Kady's Sako is a good example of when I'm, at least, much less apposed to than I used to be. Kady has rescue mutts with funny ears who she adores, Sako's ears were SUPER goofy before they were cropped, and i'm sure if she had met him in a shelter with his original ears she whould have loved him and thought they were cute (they were, and are) but after putting a lot of time and effort into fostering, adopting, helping out at a shelter, she wanted a dog that she could compete in shows with. For better or worse (worse, actually, IMO) amstafs with cropped ears do better in akc shows, and if they have natural ears they benefit from being the correct shape. It seems like Sako enjoys training and showing, and i doubt in the middle of having fun with her he is feeling sad about those ear flaps he lost. 

I DO think amstaff/APBT/ambully crops tend to be easier, often requiring no aftercare beyond preventing infection, etc. These are also just tough dogs who are often unfazed by discomfort, Luigi smashes into things all the time and shows no distress, he jumped over the couch once, caught his leg on a table and ripped the inside of his back leg open. He kept zooming around unaware he was spraying blood everywhere. That said, if my husband gets out of the car to run in the store he is inconsolable, even with me in the car. he is a big marshmallow emotionally, but the only physical thing he's ever acted sad about was a bee sting. I think there is some breeds and crop styles, such as really long crops on danes that do get into semi-cruel territory, I think the dog has much more discomfort and frustration spending months with their ears in contraptions that have to keep being replaced, than they do for a week or so just waiting for stiches to come out. I have no problem with tail docking , if done right at a few days old I think pups get some treatment from their mom that causes more discomfort. Dewclaws, again, if it's done right doesn't really bother me (I wish Luigi's original owner had opted for it, he GRABS with his paws sometimes when he's playing and I swear it's like he has sharp opposable thumbs, ouch!)

Ultimately, I think a dog going through a cosmetic procedure is unneccesary, but I think some dogs, like Sako, for example, have great lives with people who adore them and spend their time enriching their lives and keeping them safe, which compared to even the average ok dog owner is way more important than that one ear detail. The guy who bought Luigi from a (I'm sure backyard) breeder spared Lu the trauma of any unessicary surgery. He also was let him escape the yard at 11 weeks old, remain missing for three days, and then dropped him off at the shelter with a hematoma and a belly full of rat poison, which the guy admited was sitting out in the same yard his puppy had been left unattended in. I think situations like these (at least for my favorite breed) are more common than ear cropping, and are way more detrimental to dogs. I don't think it's the best thing you could ever do for a dog, but it is not on the list of things that really make me want to berate someone for their choice. Of course when some idiot tries to crop their puppy's ears at home, awake, in a dirty kitchen, I would happily see that puppy confiscated.


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## catahoulamom

The only "modification" I am okay with is spaying or neutering. All of the dogs I have ever had, my whole life, have had dew claws in the front, and never had a problem. I understand that sometimes they can be very loose and can get caught on things and rip off (I've only seen these weird dew claws on one dog), go ahead and get it removed if it's *in the interest in your dog*.

Getting a dogs ears cropped is *never* in the interest of the dog.

K, great danes used to be used for hunting. They cropped their ears to protect them or whatever, great. Well, my breed of choice is now what they primarily use for boar hunting. They have floppy, soft, velvety ears. No cropping here. Why? Because it's not necessary. Nor would it be necessary for a "working" dane. Ever. I have a pit bull and would never have even thought of cropping his ears. Yet, as Rachel said, I am drawn to cropped dogs in shelters. I may rescue a cropped pit one day.

Docking I'm not really into. I've seen how it's done. They also do it to baby pigs in pig farms. I don't think that's very nice either. If you have a dog with a docked tail, no, I do not think you are cruel, your dog probably came like that from the breeder. But I've also met lots of vizslas, boxers, aussies (I always thought they were born without a tail), and dobies with tails and they never had any problems. 

In my opinion, it is selfish to crop your dog for "breed standard" or because you like the way it looks.

ETA: Oh and the whole thing about floppy eared dogs getting ear infections... like others said, look at the diet. Keep your dogs ears cleaned. I volunteered at the same shelter for 18 months and the two dogs that were constantly getting ear infections were a german shepherd x and a cropped dobie.


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## Porphyria

Some Aussies are born with the naturally bobbed tail and some are not. So not every bobbed Aussie you see has been docked.


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## emilie

well i don't really mind cropping the ears and i find it looks nice, to be honest i was thinking about for cali but my dad and mom said hell no lol they just think it looks mean.. my gsp has her tail docked and i don't know any gsp with there tail not docked and ive been around them my hole life. i guess its just a matter of opinion but when people say heidi was mistreated because her tail is docked i get defensive. and her dewclaws are off and im happy for that because when we go to the barn she chases birds in the bushes and i think they would of ripped off if they were still on.

but i do love cali with her ears floppy and her dewclaws intact lol its all matter of opinion so don't think we can get mad at anyone who believes the opposite


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## SerenityFL

Tahlz said:


> Also, Nupe made a point. Why is everyone ok with tail docking and dew claws being removed but have a issue with ear cropping?. I'm sorry but to me that's calling the kettle black.*


No, not "everyone". I did not say I was ok with tail docking and dew claw removal. I said nothing about those two because I also don't believe in removing those. I've had a dog with dew claws and not a thing happened to her. They never ripped or got caught on anything and she was a wild one, running around like a lunatic all the time.

I don't understand tail docking being ok but ear cropping not being ok, either. I think all of those procedures suck.


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## chowder

Just for the record, Shade has double dew claws on his hind legs. They are big, floppy things that dangle all over the place. He was a totally outdoor dog for his first 4 years. He is almost 6 (in January). He runs around through the woods and fields at full speed like a total lunatic and has never ripped or tore one of those big floppy double dewclaws in his 6 years of life. 

So, the argument that they need taken off (especially front legs) to prevent tearing on working dogs just doesn't hold up. They are mandatory on Great Pyrenees (and I think some other working breeds) that are outdoors all day working sheep. I do have to trim them and they are an extra toenail to cut, but big whoop. Takes me an extra ten seconds per paw. It's just bizarre that people want to cut something off one dog that is mandatory for another breed to actually have. Can't we just accept them the way they come out the hatch without surgically manipulating them to our liking?


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## whiteleo

chowder said:


> Just for the record, Shade has double dew claws on his hind legs. They are big, floppy things that dangle all over the place. He was a totally outdoor dog for his first 4 years. He is almost 6 (in January). He runs around through the woods and fields at full speed like a total lunatic and has never ripped or tore one of those big floppy double dewclaws in his 6 years of life.
> 
> So, the argument that they need taken off (especially front legs) to prevent tearing on working dogs just doesn't hold up. They are mandatory on Great Pyrenees (and I think some other working breeds) that are outdoors all day working sheep. I do have to trim them and they are an extra toenail to cut, but big whoop. Takes me an extra ten seconds per paw. It's just bizarre that people want to cut something off one dog that is mandatory for another breed to actually have. Can't we just accept them the way they come out the hatch without surgically manipulating them to our liking?



Chowder, I'm going to disagree with this! My boy Leo has had his dew claws ripped and torn several times and I so wish that my vet would remove them, mind you it is only the front ones we have issue with. He's had them cauterized twice from being torn too close. My vet won't take them off as he says it is just like declawing a cat, he won't do that either. But I feel there has to be a middle ground, I so wish they were taken off when he was a puppy.


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## nupe

*The only "modification" I am okay with is spaying or neutering. All of the dogs I have ever had, my whole life, have had dew claws in the front, and never had a problem. I understand that sometimes they can be very loose and can get caught on things and rip off (I've only seen these weird dew claws on one dog), go ahead and get it removed if it's in the interest in your dog.

Getting a dogs ears cropped is never in the interest of the dog.* 


Umm Did you not see ear infections mentioned in this thread??...Just do not think it does not happen because it did not happen to your dog or dogs.
..Hey I say to each his own , whatever helps you to sleep at night.!!! I just didnt agree with some people agreeing on or justifying one procedure , but saying another procedure is cruel!!!...I just found that a little hypocritical.


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## chowder

whiteleo said:


> Chowder, I'm going to disagree with this! My boy Leo has had his dew claws ripped and torn several times and I so wish that my vet would remove them, mind you it is only the front ones we have issue with. He's had them cauterized twice from being torn too close. My vet won't take them off as he says it is just like declawing a cat, he won't do that either. But I feel there has to be a middle ground, I so wish they were taken off when he was a puppy.


I've never actually owned a dog that had his front ones removed in all the years I've had dogs (and we're talking a lot of dogs here) and it's never been an issue. I can't actually say I've ever seen it be an issue where I've worked, either, but I believe it when you say poor Leo has had a problem with it. I just don't see it as a major problem with the majority of dogs. Front dewclaw removal is only required in one or two AKC breeds. It's optional with almost all breeds now. Even rear dewclaw removal is only required in a few breeds but not very many dogs are born with rear dewclaws. 

I think Leo is probably an exception to the rule unfortunately for him, and I agree, he probably has a legitimate health reason for having it done. But, unless there is a health reason, you are back to doing surgery on a puppy to prevent something that may or may not ever happen.


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## RawFedDogs

whiteleo said:


> Chowder, I'm going to disagree with this! My boy Leo has had his dew claws ripped and torn several times and I so wish that my vet would remove them, mind you it is only the front ones we have issue with. He's had them cauterized twice from being torn too close. My vet won't take them off as he says it is just like declawing a cat, he won't do that either. But I feel there has to be a middle ground, I so wish they were taken off when he was a puppy.


I think you have good reason to have them removed and if I were you, I'd find a vet that would do it.


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## Caty M

Bishop also has two ones on the rear legs, but they are small and I keep the nails trimmed very short. Tess has none- they were removed. I don't care either way, it's a tiny flap of skin when done as a newborn and not a mutilation of a body part like an ear crop would be. I don't really agree with a tail dock either but it's not as bad.

Why risk putting the dog under anaesthesia for something purely cosmetic? You can argue ear infections but it's also been said there are dogs with cropped ears that get them also.


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## catahoulamom

nupe said:


> Umm Did you not see ear infections mentioned in this thread??...Just do not think it does not happen because it did not happen to your dog or dogs.
> ..Hey I say to each his own , whatever helps you to sleep at night.!!! I just didnt agree with some people agreeing on or justifying one procedure , but saying another procedure is cruel!!!...I just found that a little hypocritical.


Since you posted something that I said, I'm assuming you're addressing me. Did you not read my whole post? 



> ETA: Oh and the whole thing about floppy eared dogs getting ear infections... like others said, look at the diet. Keep your dogs ears cleaned. I volunteered at the same shelter for 18 months and the two dogs that were constantly getting ear infections were a german shepherd x and a cropped dobie.


I've volunteered in numerous shelters for the past 8 years, worked in a grooming salon for 3, worked in a kennel, high-quality dog food store, and for the past year I have had my own business that revolves around everything "dog". Walking, grooming, training, etc. The only dogs that I have dealt with that had SEVERE ear infection problems were labs, a couple cockers, a GSD mix, a cropped dobie AND my friend's cropped APBT. I've switched several of the dogs mentioned to a better (often raw) diet and if the ear infections didn't cease immediately, they were significantly reduced (to the dogs I didn't have the option to switch their diet, I recommend ZYMOX OTIC and cleaning the ears reguarly with an enzymatic wash). If your dog is still getting ear infections and it doesn't have to do with diet (which in that case would mean your dog would have to be on a NO.CARBS.PERIOD. diet), you aren't properly maintaining your dogs ears. 

I'll say it again. If you want to crop your dogs ears to prevent ear infections, you really shouldn't have a dog born with floppy ears. No matter what breed you have, floppy ears or not, cropped ears or not, you HAVE to maintain basic hygiene to avoid issues such as ear infections. Isn't it common sense?

I probably wouldn't be able to "sleep at night" if I had a puppy with newly cropped ears that had to be posted and messed with every day. I have seen sooooooooo many dogos, dobies, and danes with issues after cropping that, if I were to think about it at night, I would probably have trouble sleeping! Those poor dogs. From what I've seen, pit bull-type dogs get their ears cropped much shorter and don't require posting. I still think it's unnecessary and disrespectful to the dog to do that to his body for no reason other than you like the way it looks, or you want to show them.


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## Celt

The reason I dislike ear cropping is because the pup has to be put completely under for the surgery. On the other hand if done correctly, tail docking barely causes any pain and seldomly has "complications". As for dewclaw removal, most dogs don't have problems but when they do, it's generally a nearly constant source of injury. The removal of a dewclaw as a young pup is a simple, no anethesia/painkiller needed procedure but as an "adult" dog it's a lot more complicated.I think that if ear cropping could be done in a similar manner then I wouldn't disagree with it. I just dislike the idea of "endangering" a pup for a surgery that doesn't serve a "purpose".


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## CorgiPaws

nupe said:


> He wants you to ask the owners about ear infections from dogs with floppy ears specifically Doberman owners...and let me see if I read a couple of threads correctly here...Docking and dew claw removal is ok, but ear cropping is cruel and unusual punishment??..did i see that right in a couple of early posts on this thread?


Yeah, I'm pretty ok with tail docking and dew claw removal. I do, however, think ear cropping is cruel. 
All this crap about ear infections is entirely BOGUS, and not at all the reasons it was done. I meet a lot of dogs of a lot of different breeds every single day. I'm the "foodie" at work, and help a lot of people with their dog's various problems. Ear issues... we see a lot of cockers and labs. In fact, probably just as many labs as cockers! ONE Dobie, that was cropped, a cropped boxer, and a few mutts here and there. 
Ear infections are more diet and hygiene related. If you have to hack a dog's ear off instead of just cleaning the damn things every day if they need it, well... then perhaps get a gecko instead?





Tahlz said:


> Also, Nupe made a point. Why is everyone ok with tail docking and dew claws being removed but have a issue with ear cropping?. I'm sorry but to me that's calling the kettle black.*


No, Nupe did not make a point. 
You can not compare apples to orange. 
Dew Claw Removal: if done in the first couple days of life is a very fast procedure, literally... a second long! It is not like an adult dog's dew claw, but more like a little flap of skin. They don't bleed more than a drop or so, and often times puppies don't even make a peep more than they already do just from being held and they heal very very fast with no aftercare. The procedure does not require the added risk of being put under, either.
Tail Docking: Also, like Dew claws, it is a very fast procedure, with minimal blood shed, and no manipulation of the wounded flesh required afterward. They heal very quickly as well and only require one quick stitch that dissolves and falls out on its own pretty quickly.
Ear Cropping is a surgical procedure, requiring the added risks of anesthesia. Half of the ear is removed. Most crops require posting the ears to stand properly which requires continual manipulation of the wounded flesh, including taping the flesh which also can lead to infections of the skin. Most dogs seem pretty OK by the time they go home, but when coming out of anesthesia scream in pain and generally thrash about and have to be restrained. Heaven forbid they actually unstick their bandages and blood is flying everywhere. All of that, with absolutely no guarantee they will even stand... and all for purely cosmetic reasons. 




nupe said:


> *The only "modification" I am okay with is spaying or neutering. All of the dogs I have ever had, my whole life, have had dew claws in the front, and never had a problem. I understand that sometimes they can be very loose and can get caught on things and rip off (I've only seen these weird dew claws on one dog), go ahead and get it removed if it's in the interest in your dog.
> 
> Getting a dogs ears cropped is never in the interest of the dog.*
> 
> 
> Umm Did you not see ear infections mentioned in this thread??...Just do not think it does not happen because it did not happen to your dog or dogs.
> ..Hey I say to each his own , whatever helps you to sleep at night.!!! I just didnt agree with some people agreeing on or justifying one procedure , but saying another procedure is cruel!!!...I just found that a little hypocritical.


it's not hypocritical when the procedures are NIGHT AND DAY in difference


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## SerenityFL

PuppyPaws said:


> If you have to hack a dog's ear off instead of just cleaning the damn things every day if they need it, well... then perhaps get a gecko instead?


Have I told you lately how much I adore you?


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## KlaMarie

Personally, I probably wouldn't ever get any of my dogs' ears cropped, mainly because I don't want to go through the hassel of posting them. It's one of the reasons I didn't get a Dobie, because I don't like the natural ear look on them..........looks like a hound, but that's just me. 

I don't think it's inhumane though, at least the dogs are under sedation when the procedure is done. And the dogs I've seen go through the recovery process don't even seem to notice. 

And I'm just going to step on toes all the way around on this one but.......if you think cropping is inhumane, but it's ok to have your son circumcised, you are a *HYPOCRITE*!!!!! I've seen babies circumcised many times in person, and there is a reason they take the baby away from you to a "procedure" room to have him circumcised. Because it's completely barbaric! The babies don't even get the anesthesia that the dogs do, and there is no medical reason to do it. Period.

And I'll get off my soap box now :wink:


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## whiteleo

RawFedDogs said:


> I think you have good reason to have them removed and if I were you, I'd find a vet that would do it.


I like that thought, my vet just makes it seem so cruel at this stage of the game. I will look into it but it means a trip to Seattle or Lynnwood to get it done though. I will talk to him next week as Sh**bird and Cayenne are both due for wellness exams and they have an appt on Tuesday.


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## nupe

*No, Nupe did not make a point. 
You can not compare apples to orange*


I thought Nupe made a good [email protected] puppy paws...you just didnt agree with it!



*Since you posted something that I said, I'm assuming you're addressing me. Did you not read my whole post?*

Just RE READ your whole post again @ Julie...AND my statement still stands!...like I said earlier to each his own, that what makes this country so beautiful. "GOD BLESS AMERICA"! and I personally know 1 Dobie owner who dog had floppy ears and they got ear infection, also there dogi se and was then on the raw diet, thats all I know about their diet . I personally did not see them clean their dog ears but this was what I considered really responsible owner so I assume they did and they answered yes when I asked them if they did clean the ears. *shrugs*....So do I BELIEVE there is a health benefit to it...YES..do I also like the look of cropped ears especially on a Dobie..UMMM yes again! Hey its not like I am a cat thief or feeding my dog euthanised dead dogs!!! sheeesh!


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## catahoulamom

Yeah. God bless America! Home of the brave and do-whatever-the-f*&@-we-want-to-our-animals-because-god-dangit-we-think-it-looks-cool!!!

Nope, I'll be proud when this country cares enough about its animals to make altering for looks illegal. Like in the UK.

And for the record, Nupe, I think your dog is absolutely gorgeous. Stunning, one of the most handsome dobies I've seen. Whoever did his ears did a good job, I don't think they're ugly. However, I personally could never do that to my dog, nor would I wish it on anybody else's dog. Not saying you're a bad owner, or the other owners who crop and dock are cruel or bad, as a matter of fact, 99% of the people on this forum that crop I would consider WONDERFUL owners in every other aspect, I just don't think it is in the dogs interest, and I know it's not a necessary procedure.


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## nupe

ty JULIE AND WELL SAID..Appreciate that!! we just having a difference of opnion thats all!!


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## KlaMarie

Julie said:


> Yeah. God bless America! Home of the brave and do-whatever-the-f*&@-we-want-to-our-animals-because-god-dangit-we-think-it-looks-cool!!!
> 
> Nope, I'll be proud when this country cares enough about its animals to make altering for looks illegal. Like in the UK.


But where do you draw the line? Breeding for certain physical characteristics could also be considered "altering" a dog. And I KNOW that some of the things breeders will breed selectively for, are much more detrimental to the dog that an ear crop is. Some of the extremes in GSD breeding.....those dogs die young and are in pain for the entire short life they have, are we going to make that illegal too???? They are bred that way JUST for their looks, it is certainly not in the best interest of the dog, definately not neccesary, but people create these dogs. That's much more inhumane that an ear crop under anesthesia and then a couple months of recovery (in which most dogs don't even show pain).


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## nupe

KlaMarie said:


> But where do you draw the line? Breeding for certain physical characteristics could also be considered "altering" a dog. And I KNOW that some of the things breeders will breed selectively for, are much more detrimental to the dog that an ear crop is. Some of the extremes in GSD breeding.....those dogs die young and are in pain for the entire short life they have, are we going to make that illegal too???? They are bred that way JUST for their looks, it is certainly not in the best interest of the dog, definately not neccesary, but people create these dogs. That's much more inhumane that an ear crop under anesthesia and then a couple months of recovery (in which most dogs don't even show pain).


are you refering to the slopE back in GSD'S?


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## catahoulamom

Cayla, I completely agree! As much as I love frenchies, pugs, english bulldogs, I do NOT agree with the way they are bred and the characteristics they breed into the dogs. I cringe every time I see a sloped-back GSD. It breaks my heart. There are SO many english bulldogs in Miami, I know of 3 that passed away this past summer because they could not breathe in the heat (and I'm not talking about outside dogs). It's absolutely disgusting! Don't even get me started on people breeding "american bullies" that can barely stand their legs are so far apart. Horrible, horrible, HORRIBLE!

It just goes back to the fact that the majority of people do not care about the best interest of the dog. I see so many people come into the shop I work at, every day, and spend $100 on a bag of Orijen, or $200 stocking up on pre-made raw, and they'll buy a $250 collar... yet they only have their dog for their own ego's fulfillment, to say "I have a cane corso I shipped in from [insert country here]", look at how tough I am. Look at ME, ME, ME.


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## minnieme

KlaMarie said:


> Some of the extremes in GSD breeding.....those dogs die young and are in pain for the entire short life they have, *are we going to make that illegal too????*


Yes.

Well...I wish.


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## KlaMarie

nupe said:


> are you refering to the slopE back in GSD'S?


Yes, the extreme of both the sloping topline (American show line) and roached topline.



minnieme said:


> Yes.
> 
> Well...I wish.


Well, I don't wish that....because even though I hate those type of breeding practices, laws that would outlaw it would bring with it a whole slew of other regulations that I probably would NOT like.

I'm just saying to want to make something like ear cropping against the law, to be even remotely fair to the dogs, we would also have to outlaw the things that are REALLY hurting them, like horrible breeding practices -- that's just not going to happen.


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## xellil

I don't know if it's illegal to crop in the UK but it's illegal to show a cropped Doberman.

That's where you stop it - right at the top, where all the money is. If you have a champion dog that's going to make you a bazillion dollars - but only with natural ears -- you'd stop hearing all these rationalizations like it helps ear infections.

Or if it's deformed, and cant' breathe or walk or its brain pops through its skull.


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## SerenityFL

xellil said:


> I don't know if it's illegal to crop in the UK but it's illegal to show a cropped Doberman.
> 
> That's where you stop it - right at the top, where all the money is. If you have a champion dog that's going to make you a bazillion dollars - but only with natural ears -- you'd stop hearing all these rationalizations like it helps ear infections.
> 
> Or if it's deformed, and cant' breathe or walk or its brain pops through its skull.


There you go. That's how to stop it. I don't want it to be made illegal in general because I think the government does enough damage with what they do have their hands in. Keep the fricken government as much out of my life as possible! KlaMarie brings up a good point...you make this illegal, they'll start having all kinds of regulations with pets which will make it even harder to find homes for those who need one.

But stopping it where the money comes? Absolutely. THAT is how we stop most of the nonsense done to animals. Backyard breeders, dog fighting, etc, etc....stop the money flow and the people will stop fricken doing it. (I do agree making dog fighting illegal....good Lord I hope no one read in to that.)

What I wish is that people were more educated about animals, period. I wish people had more respect for animals. I wish people would understand that animals are companions for their life time not just as long as it's convenient. I wish people would stop living with blinders on and understand exactly what the animals need, exactly what each procedure entails, (ie: declawing), and not thinking that their dog or cat just HAS to have at least ONE experience with procreation.

I wish people would understand breeds and not be scared of some of them, (ie: pitbulls who get blamed for EVERYTHING!!!!!!!!!!!), I wish people would stop with their bias and I wish people who do abuse and neglect animals would get extraordinarily harsh punishments for what they have done.

Until this country, or anywhere else in the world for that matter, wakes the hell up and stops accepting what we do to animals, or simply shakes their head but does nothing more about it, until we stop glorifying all this crap, it will continue.

When we really start, as a whole, to admonish, shun and in the cases where it is illegal what they have done, (beaten, tortured or starved their dog or cat or any other animal they have), give harsh, harsh, HARSH punishments, less people will be apt to do such horrific things to animals.

Until we stop making excuses for every last thing we do to animals, the animals will continue to suffer at the hands of humans.


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## leilaquinn

I would also NEVER circumcise my child, for the same reason I wouldn't crop a dog's ears. But i feel the same way about both issues that if the parent or dog owner who chooses it is otherwise responsible and loving then it's not my place to judge them. I think it's a *perfect* analogy, actualy, cosmetic, painful and or uncomfortable, can be botched resulting in great cosmetic or functional problems (I have a friend who's son will uavoidably have problems for life, including pain during erections after the doctor took off way too much skin, my mom is a doula, sort of like a midwife, and a lactation consultant, she has delt with *4* botched jobs in the past 10 years, I think that's a lot). Both things are widely more accepted in some cultures than others, and both imply that a tiny helpless baby needs surgery to be whole or better.


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## swolek

prntmkr said:


> Yes... the floppy ears occurred as a direct result of domestication.
> The point was that, aside from human aesthetic tastes,
> floppy ears were simply not an evolutionary advantage,
> which is why we do not see them in the wild.


You said people bred them in to be cute which isn't true. They're linked to tameness and are a sign of domestication. So, technically, I could argue that they're natural for a domestic dog.

What exactly is "natural" to you? Dobermans have thin coats compared to wolves and wouldn't do as well in the "wild" in colder areas like their ancestors. I guess that's pretty "unnatural" by your definition .


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## nupe

SerenityFL said:


> There you go. That's how to stop it. I don't want it to be made illegal in general because I think the government does enough damage with what they do have their hands in. Keep the fricken government as much out of my life as possible! KlaMarie brings up a good point...you make this illegal, they'll start having all kinds of regulations with pets which will make it even harder to find homes for those who need one.
> 
> But stopping it where the money comes? Absolutely. THAT is how we stop most of the nonsense done to animals. Backyard breeders, dog fighting, etc, etc....stop the money flow and the people will stop fricken doing it. (I do agree making dog fighting illegal....good Lord I hope no one read in to that.)
> 
> What I wish is that people were more educated about animals, period. I wish people had more respect for animals. I wish people would understand that animals are companions for their life time not just as long as it's convenient. I wish people would stop living with blinders on and understand exactly what the animals need, exactly what each procedure entails, (ie: declawing), and not thinking that their dog or cat just HAS to have at least ONE experience with procreation.
> 
> I wish people would understand breeds and not be scared of some of them, (ie: pitbulls who get blamed for EVERYTHING!!!!!!!!!!!), I wish people would stop with their bias and I wish people who do abuse and neglect animals would get extraordinarily harsh punishments for what they have done.
> 
> Until this country, or anywhere else in the world for that matter, wakes the hell up and stops accepting what we do to animals, or simply shakes their head but does nothing more about it, until we stop glorifying all this crap, it will continue.
> 
> When we really start, as a whole, to admonish, shun and in the cases where it is illegal what they have done, (beaten, tortured or starved their dog or cat or any other animal they have), give harsh, harsh, HARSH punishments, less people will be apt to do such horrific things to animals.
> 
> Until we stop making excuses for every last thing we do to animals, the animals will continue to suffer at the hands of humans.



wow this thread still going...I thought all points were made by the pro crop people and the anti crop people? I dont think anyone mind will be changed!! I tell you what I wish...I wish some of you will start drinking decaf...thats what I wish for!!!


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## chowder

nupe said:


> wow this thread still going...I thought all points were made by the pro crop people and the anti crop people? I dont think anyone mind will be changed!! I tell you what I wish...I wish some of you will start drinking decaf...thats what I wish for!!!


It's Friday night, maybe it's just time to start drinking, period eace:


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## minnieme

chowder said:


> It's Friday night, maybe it's just time to start drinking, period eace:


amen to that!


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## 3Musketeers

I don't agree with cropping, the whole thing just doesn't make sense to me. Cutting off half an ear, for what? For looks? To prevent ear infections? Would you take your children to have their ears cut off so they don't get ear infections? Would you do it to yourself because it looks "cool"? Then why do it to your dog, who doesn't have a choice in the matter? They don't care what they look like. 
Pretty sure diet plays a bigger role in infections than cropping does anyways. There are plenty of dogs with upright ears as well, why get a floppy eared dog if you're going to chop them off?

Tail docking (and dewclaw removal) I don't like either, BUT it is done when the pup is days old and the recovery time is minimal or even non-existant.
However, Popi had a dewclaw on her back-right leg, and it was one of those weird, loose kinds, so I did have it removed (3 days old), kept the front ones on, and there was no recovery process, it was just snip, and good to go.
Patchie has no dewclaws, was that way when I got her.
Sparky and Popi have their front dewclaws, the only time I've ever had an issue has been once that I let the nails get too long and Sparky got one of them caught, I try to keep them short and don't have any problems with them there.


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## SerenityFL

nupe said:


> wow this thread still going...I thought all points were made by the pro crop people and the anti crop people? I dont think anyone mind will be changed!! I tell you what I wish...I wish some of you will start drinking decaf...thats what I wish for!!!


You're right, Nupe. We should just stop giving a sh*t and calm down and watch as animals continue to be treated like objects.

What the hell was I thinking for caring.


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## Muttkip

SerenityFL said:


> You're right, Nupe. We should just stop giving a sh*t and calm down and watch as animals continue to be treated like objects.
> 
> What the hell was I thinking for caring.


Overract much?


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## CorgiPaws

nupe said:


> wow this thread still going...I thought all points were made by the pro crop people and the anti crop people? I dont think anyone mind will be changed!! I tell you what I wish...I wish some of you will start drinking decaf...thats what I wish for!!!


If you don't like it, don't read it. 
Why people insist on coming back to threads, just to post how much they don't care about it, I will never understand. 



Muttkip said:


> Overract much?


Care, much?


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## rannmiller

I know this thread has pretty much run its course, but as a Doberman owner, I just want to throw in my two cents since my thoughts on cropping have evolved greatly over the last two years. When I first learned about the breed when I was 8, I loved the cropped ears and thought they were natural. As I got a little older and found out it was actually a cosmetic surgery, I decided I'd never do that to my dog and fell in love with the natural, floppy Doberears instead. Over the last year and a half of having my girl, I grew ever more in love with her velvety, floppy, awesome ears. They're so stinkin' cute and really soften the look of the breed. However, they are also a target of aggression from my other dogs, unfortunately :frown: Now I'm seriously thinking my next Dobe is going to be cropped for that very reason. I'm sick of the tips of her ears being chomped off or the middle of her ears getting bruised, puffy, and scabbed from being chomped right in the middle. It really makes me think she might have been better off cropped so she wouldn't have to put up with all of these ear wounds. 

However, I hate the look of crops on other traditionally cropped breeds and would never even consider it for them. 

The ear infection excuse is total BS though. Peyton's ears stay clean and pristine all by themselves.


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## CorgiPaws

rannmiller said:


> I know this thread has pretty much run its course, but as a Doberman owner, I just want to throw in my two cents since my thoughts on cropping have evolved greatly over the last two years. When I first learned about the breed when I was 8, I loved the cropped ears and thought they were natural. As I got a little older and found out it was actually a cosmetic surgery, I decided I'd never do that to my dog and fell in love with the natural, floppy Doberears instead. Over the last year and a half of having my girl, I grew ever more in love with her velvety, floppy, awesome ears. They're so stinkin' cute and really soften the look of the breed. However, they are also a target of aggression from my other dogs, unfortunately :frown: Now I'm seriously thinking my next Dobe is going to be cropped for that very reason. I'm sick of the tips of her ears being chomped off or the middle of her ears getting bruised, puffy, and scabbed from being chomped right in the middle. It really makes me think she might have been better off cropped so she wouldn't have to put up with all of these ear wounds.


...I'd probably work on the aggression issues with the other dogs in the pack, than cut off my next dog's ears? Or hold off on a next dog if the dogs in the house are having that many aggression issues in the first place. 



rannmiller said:


> However, I hate the look of crops on other traditionally cropped breeds and would never even consider it for them.


But, I thought your whole agreement to cropping was to "protect" the ears from your other's aggression, not about the look?

Bleh, every argument "for" cropping makes me more and more against it.


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## rannmiller

PuppyPaws said:


> ...I'd probably work on the aggression issues with the other dogs in the pack, than cut off my next dog's ears? Or hold off on a next dog if the dogs in the house are having that many aggression issues in the first place.


Almost all dogs in a multi-dog household will get into scuffles every now and then. The aggression issues are almost completely resolved but every now and then they have an argument and for whatever reason they just go for her ears every time. 




PuppyPaws said:


> But, I thought your whole agreement to cropping was to "protect" the ears from your other's aggression, not about the look?


It is about protecting the ears. The fact that it would look ok and not make my dog look like a gremlin (hopefully) would be an added bonus. 

If you're against cropping, don't get your dogs' ears cropped. As long as people go to a licensed and experienced veterinarian and are prepared to do all of the necessary proper after care, then at least they're doing it right rather than cutting them off with scissors in their kitchen at home.


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## nupe

SerenityFL said:


> You're right, Nupe. We should just stop giving a sh*t and calm down and watch as animals continue to be treated like objects.
> 
> What the hell was I thinking for caring.



so WHAT are you doing ABOUT STOPPING ear cropping besides sitting on your a** at your house..typing on your computer??....ANYTHING? start a movement here on the dogfoodforum...STOP HIDING BEHIND YOUR SCREEN AND WALK THE WALK IF YOU CARE SO MUCH!!!.....So I figure Dana and or puppy paws will chime in now and tell everyone to calm down, , but all I am saying we dont need 14 pages of people saying the same thing...its been said over and over...some are for ear cropping some against. But all this the animals are treated like objects and would you treat your kids like that !!! WTH is that??............DECAF PEOPLE!!! DECAF!!!.


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## nupe

*If you don't like it, don't read it. 
Why people insist on coming back to threads, just to post how much they don't care about it, I will never understand. *

WOW ....Surprised at that talk from a moderator...very surprised!!!!...and I come back to the thread to see if someone has a question directed at me or for me!!! I also like to laugh at you guys who ramble on about the same thing... Just mad at the world...and yall vent on here ...the dogfoodforum!!!! SAD!!.."....."tHIS EAR CROPPING THING WILL BE THE DEATH OF THE CONUTRY i TELL YOU"""..lol


LOOK AT THIS DOG I TREAT AS A OBJECT AND MISTREAT DAILEY!!! CALL PETA ON ME RIGHT NOW!!


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## CorgiPaws

I'm sure you don't abuse him, but he is quite.... chunky. 

Nupe- you are not in charge of this forum, and you will not be dictating what people can and can not talk about. If you don't want the thread to go on any more- don't look at it and don't post on it: problem solved. No one is breaking the rules around here (except you) so quit bossing people around and blatantly insulting members. You do not get to decide what this forum "needs" and if anyone wants to go on for 15 pages, as long as the debate remains respectful, then so be it. So far, the only disrespect I've seen has been from you, so cool it.



Thread closed.


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