# Best food for...



## DogLuver (Oct 19, 2011)

I've decided to start this thread instead of continuing on the other threads, and going off topic.

As per some discussions with MythBuster and The Expert, there are some contradicting theories here, and apparently it all depends on the dog when deciding which diet is best for THAT dog. So here's my dogs, what do you think I should be feeding them? All opinions advice from anyone welcome 

Dog#1: Trooper
BREED: Golden Retriever
GENDER: Male
AGE: 4.5yrs
WEIGHT: 85lbs, tall and lean
ACTIVITY: always going, very active dog. Loves to run/retriever and can go on and on and on, endless energy. When in the house, sleeping, but gets plenty of exercise outside during play, and daily 1hr walks.
MY BELIEFS/EXPERIENCE: Trooper is very active, and if fed a kibble with low kcal/cup he loses weight fast
HISTORY: Used to be a picky eater when he was free fed. When put on a eating schedule, started eating full amount that was presented to him. He won't eat foods such as Purina, or Iams, also tried some generic brands, all grain inclusive that he wasn't crazy about. He went nuts over Acana, EVO, and Orijen, so have stuck with those.
DIET/HEALTH HISTORY: First 1.5yrs was fed MainStay (similar to Ol'Roy, bought at grocery store), had re-occurring bladder infections, bad ones, with crystals and lots of blood in urine. Switched to a Generic Performance kibble (http://www.brtpetfoods.com/dogs_profile.htm), but on this food he still had the bladder infections, and had itchy feet, always licking, and excessive eye boogers. At about 3yrs old, switched him to EVO Turkey & Chicken Formula, and he began to gain weight finally (he was 70-75lbs before this, and just too skinny). Started rotating between EVO, Acana and Orijen, found that he liked Acana best, and held a steady weight without the bladder infections/itchy feet. No problems now so have been feeding Acana since. 
CURRENT DIET: Rotation of Acana Ranchlands, Acana Grasslands, Acana Pacifica, Orijen 6-Fish
RESULTS ON THIS DIET: Good, no problems (bladder infections gone, itchy feet gone, eye boogers minimized, but still there sometimes) high energy as always, SUPER DUPER shiny coat...I've never seen his coat so beautiful in his 4.5yrs. All around seems good, eats well, and has small, solid regular stools.

Dog#2: Gus
BREED: Great Dane
GENDER: Male
AGE: 7mths
WEIGHT: 100lbs tall and lean
ACTIVITY: 1hr walk daily, regular romps/playing outside with Trooper, very relaxed/lazy when inside does a lot of sleeping.
MY BELIEFS/EXPERIENCE: I did a RIDICULOUS amount of research on Great Danes/Giant Breed dogs prior to getting Gus, and chose his food according to what I learned in regards to bone growth, bloat, and so forth.
DIET/HEALTH HISTORY: The breeder had him on Royal Canin puppy, and she gave me a small bag of it, I continued feeding it, and Gus had bad diarhea for the 2 weeks that he continued that. The diarhea could have been from the change (leaving his family and such). But after the research I did, I decided I didn't like Royal Canin, so I switched him to Innova Large Breed Puppy (gradually switched him), and his diarhea got worse, and didn't improve after a 30lb bag, so I then gradually switched him to Orijen LBP, diarhea went away immediately, he was able to keep a steady weight/growth with Orijen LBP so I have been feeding him that since (for about 3.5mths now)
CURRENT DIET: Orijen LBP, occasionally Orijen 6-Fish and Acana Pacifica
RESULTS ON THIS DIET: Good, no problems, very shiny coat, plenty of energy, growing steadily, no odor, no eye boogers, loves his food. Has regular, solid stools (but they're still fairly large, I don't know if they get small for a Great Dane though??)

so based on this information, or any other information (just ask) what would you recommend I feed Trooper and Gus? And why? I personally believe ultimately I should be feeding them a properly balanced RAW diet...and I'm working towards that, but if someone wants to tell me that a RAW diet is not ideal for them, I'm open ears, but please to do explain  Thank you all in advance.


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## whiteleo (Sep 7, 2008)

Can't comment on the raw option here as it's the dry/canned section! But if the dogs are doing great on their current diets then i would stick with it. BTW I love Acana products, have used them on my fosters and if I didn't feed raw I would feed this kibble.


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## Mondo (Dec 20, 2011)

Acana and Orijen are both excellent kibbles, and I fed them in my pre-raw days .. back in November 2011. lol.


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## MollyWoppy (Mar 19, 2010)

I'm thinking along Robins lines, if you think your dogs are doing wonderfully on their various diets, why change? I think the foods you have chosen are both great foods, made by trustworthy companies. You are rotating between the different proteins, which I personally like to do as well. Mollie was on the various proteins of Orijen (we don't get Acana here) before we made the move to raw, and I was very happy with her condition. My cat is on Orijen, I did a lot of research before persuading her to eat this food, but I'm very happy with the results so far. My friends 14 year old pug is on mostly Orijen (and premade raw), he was on Science Diet, but his health, coat and general demeanor are like night and day compared to a year ago.
Seriously, from what you have written, what you are currently feeding seems to be a good thing.


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## mythbuster (Jan 23, 2012)

DogLuver said:


> so based on this information, or any other information (just ask) what would you recommend I feed Trooper and Gus? And why? I personally believe ultimately I should be feeding them a properly balanced RAW diet...and I'm working towards that, but if someone wants to tell me that a RAW diet is not ideal for them, I'm open ears, but please to do explain  Thank you all in advance.


Question: what has convinced you that raw is the way to go? (ie: what nutritional benefits do you perceive coming from raw vs a commercial diet or even a cooked homemade diet)
If you do go raw, how will you determine that the diet is a) balanced b) safe d) is meeting the nutritional requirements of your dogs?

There is something to be said for the 'if it ain't broke don't fix it' rule of thumb, however, there is also a difference between adequate nutrition and optimal nutrition, and it can be difficult to know the difference between the two. 

To take a step back, when I'm choosing a diet for a patient, first I make a list of companies that I feel produce optimal nutrition. 
To start, I ask the following questions: 
1. Do you have a Veterinary Nutritionist or some equivalent on staff in your company? Are they available for consultation or questions?
2. Who formulates your diets and what are their credentials?
3. Which of your diet(s) is AAFCO Feed Trial tested? Which of your diets meet AAFCO Nutritional requirements?
4. What Testing do you do beyond AAFCO trials?
5. What specific quality control measures do you use to assure the consistency and quality of your product line? What safety measures do you use?
6. Where are your diets produced and manufactured? Can this plant be visited?
7. Can you provide a complete product nutrient analysis of your best selling canine and feline pet food including digestibility values?
8. Can you give me the caloric value per can or cup of your diets?

I have asked these questions of a lot of companies. Most companies don't bother answering at all, a couple have answered one or two of the questions and left the rest blank. Champion (who makes Acana) did not answer me.
Once I have a list of companies I trust, I look at what the animal needs, and look at the products available from my 'trusted companies', to see what produce best meets the needs of the animal. 

Trooper
-young active dog
-history of urinary issues (this is a bit of a question mark for me... Male dogs very rarely get bladder infections, so I'm curious about how he got a UTI, what crystals he formed, the concentration of his urine at the time, and what his urine looks like when he's healthy)
-history of itchy skin; is this a food allergy, environmental allergy, or due to the fact that golden's are a breed that is predisposed to hot spots and skin issues? 
-breed predispositions; joint disease, skin issues, cancer

Nutritional wish list: 
-moderate protein/fat levels to meet needs of a high energy/activity dog
-skin support: EPA/DHA for anti-inflammatory benefits, sulfur amino acids (these are abundant in corn... as an aside...), omega-6s like LA and GLA to strengthen the strength of the skin barrier
-for joints: EPA/DHA for anti-inflammatory benefits, maybe some glucosamine/chondroitin added in as well
-cancer: maintain a good body condition (already doing that), supplement with a blend of antioxidants to help reduce free radical damage 

Gus
-growing giant breed dog
-breed/size predisposition to diarrhea, GDV, joint disease, dilated cardiomyopathy, cancer

Nutritional wish list: 
-diet produced to meet the growth requirements of a giant breed dog
-GI support; highly digestible to decrease fermentation which can lead to diarrhea, and easily broken down to help decrease risk of bloat
-for joints: EPA/DHA for anti-inflammatory benefits, maybe some glucosamine/chondroitin added in as well
-heart support: EPA/DHA for anti-inflammatory benefits, L-carnitine to ensure adequate supply and decrease risk of DCM, antioxidants to help reduce free radical damage.
-cancer: maintain a good body condition (already doing that), supplement with a blend of antioxidants to help reduce free radical damage 

Royal Canin is my first choice of companies when I am recommending a diet, because I believe they are light years ahead of anyone else when it comes to research, product development, and product safety. Plus, they have a ton of specific formulas, which allows me to choose diets that meet my nutritional wish list better than using a generic 'one size fits all' approach. So, if I were choosing diets for your dogs, the ones I would be considering would be: 

Trooper: Golden Retriever 25 / Breed / Dog Diets / Pet Store Exclusive Diets / Home - RoyalCanin
Maxi Joint and Coat Care 28 / Maxi / Dog Diets / Pet Store Exclusive Diets / Home - RoyalCanin (this is actually what I feed my dog and he does amazingly well on it)
Maxi Adult 25 / Maxi / Dog Diets / Pet Store Exclusive Diets / Home - RoyalCanin
Gus: Giant Junior / Giant / Dog Diets / Pet Store Exclusive Diets / Home - RoyalCanin


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## PDXdogmom (Jun 30, 2010)

DogLuver:

You rotate foods for both dogs. You list the results for both dogs as "good, no problems".

I think you have your answer: stay with what you're doing.


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## DogLuver (Oct 19, 2011)

mythbuster said:


> *Question: what has convinced you that raw is the way to go? (ie: what nutritional benefits do you perceive coming from raw vs a commercial diet or even a cooked homemade diet)
> If you do go raw, how will you determine that the diet is a) balanced b) safe d) is meeting the nutritional requirements of your dogs?*
> 
> Royal Canin is my first choice of companies when I am recommending a diet, because I believe they are light years ahead of anyone else when it comes to research, product development, and product safety. Plus, they have a ton of specific formulas, which allows me to choose diets that meet my nutritional wish list better than using a generic 'one size fits all' approach. So, if I were choosing diets for your dogs, the ones I would be considering would be:
> ...


I've read your entire answer, thank you for your advice and reasoning, I appreciate it. I am not doubting your knowledge or education, or even your reasoning, but with my experience/knowledge/advice/understanding, I wouldn't feel comfortable feeding either dogs a food with such little meat content.

To answer your question, what convinces me that RAW is the way to go. I've been convinced by my current vet, by my current dog trainer, by friends/family that feed their dogs a RAW diet with much success, from several educated and experienced people, from people who have sled huskies and feed RAW and people who have working farm dogs, from several people on this forum, and other forums, from success stories I've heard/read, and based on my belief of trying to do things naturally, and create natural health.

_If you do go raw, how will you determine that the diet is a) balanced b) safe d) is meeting the nutritional requirements of your dogs?_ I've done a ton of research online about how to properly balance a RAW diet, I believe I have a good understanding of it, but I am also going to continue trying to learn more before I do decide to make the switch or not. I've consulted with my vet about a properly balanced RAW diet, and he too has experience with feeding his own dogs a RAW diet, he also treats dogs that are fed various diets, and he believes in feeding a RAW diet, which is a great piece of mind for me. How am I going to know if it's meeting all the nutritional requirements of my dogs, again, based on others advice/experience and by trying it with my dogs. If I realized that this diet was not working for them I would change it of coarse. 

In all honesty....I DON'T know forsure that feeding a RAW diet meets all the nutritional requirements for my dogs, but I also DON'T know that any commercial diet, or home-made diet would meet those nutritional requirements either. I am doing my very best to provide them the very best I can, and I have good reason, after learning, confiding in professionals, and seeing the results of other people who feed their dogs RAW, seeing the improvements, and learning from previous peoples mistakes/experiences to believe that a RAW diet is ideal for my dogs.

I don't know much about Royal Canin, and I appreciate your in depth explanation. I'm not completely writing you off and saying "you don't know what you're talking about, I'm doing it my way", I do believe you know what you're talking about and I am trying to learn from you (I am open to hearing everyones opinions/advice, and from there making my own decision)...but as for now, I'll just say thank you for your advice  and leave it there.

PS...sorry for so much RAW talk in the dry/kibble section, just trying to answer the question.


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## mythbuster (Jan 23, 2012)

DogLuver said:


> I wouldn't feel comfortable feeding either dogs a food with such little meat content.


I'm not trying to sway you, but I do feel the need to correct a misperception...... There is a huge difference between meat content and protein content. AAFCO minimum protein requirement for adult dogs is 18%. The lowest of the diets I listed has a protein level minimum of 25%. Protein is necessary for certain metabolic functions (enzymes etc...), maintaining muscle mass, producing skin and hair, and is used for energy. Excess protein is turned into fat or is wasted. There is no benefit to feeding an animal more protein than it requires. In fact, certain disease conditions (ie: renal disease) progress more quickly in the face of excess protein. Meat is 80-90% water, depending on the meat you're looking at, so if you have a pound of meat, you actually only have a couple of ounces of nutrients left after water is removed.


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## whiteleo (Sep 7, 2008)

You know, I'm just tried of the same old crap! I really find it hard to believe that you are not from a "dog food co." Raw is taking over and the kibble co. are getting worried so they must send out their people to put scare tactics on the forums.....Enough is enough!

Try raw the right way and you too will be convinced!


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## The Expert (Jan 25, 2012)

Ok so myth buster basically said what I would have said. 
I really feel that anyone wanting to use ANY diet should use those questions!!! Even for a pre-made RAW diet. You cannot assume that because a company says it is “good and wholesome” it is. If they do not answer your questions then you basically know they are lying to you on their packaging. Back to that pretty packaging thing and their scare tactics and playing off of people’s emotions. They know people want to feed the best and they find ways to make them believe this is the best. To be honest I wouldn’t feed a company that ever said “we do not add ……”, for the very reason of they never give scientific proof as to why it isn’t added. Many times they just state because of this, with nothing to back up the claim. Anyone can claim something, but truly only science can back up the claim. I know some people seem to be against research, and say they see differences, which is fine. But science truly is the only way we can conclusively determine something, as it does control many variables to ensure the result was due to whatever they were studying not by chance. No trial will ever give you all the answers, that isn’t biology. But a trial can definitely open more tunnels for research. 
From the companies listed I would never use them for the reason that I know they do not formulate properly. I have heard, and seen firsthand many bad cases with these supposed holistic diets. Based on how diets are made and the ingredients they add, I know the pet is not getting everything, and every bag varies greatly. These companies prey on the un-educated consumer, which is not right, but is fact. This trend occurs not only in pet food but people health as well. However, as we see every dog is different.
Just because their coat looks great does not mean it is great. It can still be brittle and fall out a lot, the skin can too oily, or not produce enough. Many of these companies state they have omegas which will make the skin and coat nice. But nutrition is never just one ingredient, often it is over 20 different nutrients for just one area. 
Troopers urinary issues are very interesting, I would keep an eye on that. If they were calcium oxalate stones I would avoid a potato based diet as research is showing an increase in calcium oxalate stones and the common denominator is a potato diet. As for Gus I would really recommend a large or giant breed puppy food (Giant breed is even better). Giants have a remarkable growth period, and research has been showing that dogs of this size if not fed properly actually are suffering from osteo-arthritis at very young ages. During the first 8 months these dogs have grown about 8X their initial body weight. This is HUGE, meaning they do require a diet precisely formulated to their needs. I cant think of any other animal that in that short of times increases its body weight by that much! (not much like I wolf I think). 
One thing I am seeing and am more concerned about is what appears to be the lack of fibre in the RAW diet. You actually need fibre in order to ensure healthy transit and proper friction in the gastro intestinal tract. You actually need this in order to ensure the cells are rejuvenating properly, without this cancer can be an issue. You may not see it in larger dogs as they do not live long enough, but more small dogs. To me like I have said before you really want to feed a prey model diet, you should feed a carcass – skin, hair organs, and all. This is the MOST accurate. If you have ever seen wolf scat, it has hair and grass in it. For this exact reason, I just feel if you wanted to fed RAW this is what should be done. 
My next thing is based on digestibility. If you are only feeding protein and fat, no carb (which includes fibre). You should have nothing come out the other end. Anything that comes out was not digested. Also the bigger the chunks swallowed the less digestible it is as the stomach has to work very hard to break it up and in most cases will not. If things are eaten in smaller sizes (so kibble with the ground food) this actually increases digestive efficiency. As well believe it or not, cooking actually makes all food more digestible. That is a reason people started cooking foods, decreased digestive upsets (as well as parasites). I know many people want smaller poop, however, there can be too small of a poop and this can be a whole other issue. I just recently rescued a springer who was fed pedigree and I have NEVER seen poop that big come out of a dog that small (kinda scary). He now has a poop that is appropriate for that size. So yes feeding a diet that is not formulated right nor digested well will lead to bigger messes, but like I said too small is an issue too. 

Personally I am against rotation, if you would like to know why just ask  I thought the post was long enough haha 

I think I have hit every point, but really for any diet you buy ask the company those questions, I have a feeling some of the companies (pre-made raw or kibble) will shock you either with lack of response or that you deemed them bad based of false facts and they actually do write you back.


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## mythbuster (Jan 23, 2012)

magicre said:


> although, i do get the feeling that 'the expert' and 'mythbuster' are one and the same or they are sisters and brothers or something....too much similarity in their writing styles. just sayin'.


How much time do you think I have in a day???? I have a full time job... I wish I had enough time to have multiple personas........
Reality is, when you study nutrition and talk nutrients and safety and quality, the same answers keep coming up. Doesn't make us the same person, just means we've found the same answers. 

I've been a member of another forum for several months and I have to say, it's refreshing to have found someone that understands nutrition the way I do, that's what made me join this forum in the first place.


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## DogLuver (Oct 19, 2011)

whiteleo said:


> You know, I'm just tried of the same old crap! I really find it hard to believe that you are not from a "dog food co." Raw is taking over and the kibble co. are getting worried so they must send out their people to put scare tactics on the forums.....Enough is enough!
> 
> Try raw the right way and you too will be convinced!


Thanks whiteleo, but don't worry, no one is scaring me into believing anything, and I did ask for these people's opinion specifically.

Let's keep this thread pretty please  I am truly trying to learn as much as possible and understand from all points of view. Thank you all.


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## whiteleo (Sep 7, 2008)

DogLuver said:


> Thanks whiteleo, but don't worry, no one is scaring me into believing anything, and I did ask for these people's opinion specifically.
> 
> Let's keep this thread pretty please  I am truly trying to learn as much as possible and understand from all points of view. Thank you all.


Dogluver, I've not pointed this at you, Just about every 3-4 months or so someone pops up and does the same old song and dance, probably the same person just different user name and IP address. They always try to discredit anything to do with r-- feeding, (I feel bad about using the word here) and I've just had enough! I've been here awhile and get tired of it because kibbles only been around maybe 100 years, so what were people feeding before that?


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## The Expert (Jan 25, 2012)

Yes lets please stop accusing people of things. If you look at any scientific paper they will sound the same. Part of getting a higher level degree is learning how to write scientifically. This is how the scientific world trys to keep things on the same playing feild. If we write the same then it means anyone reading the literature can understand it. I am not necessarily against RAW and I not 100% for kibble. I just feel many people in both worlds are mis-lead and the more we can get the information out there the better and more progress we can make. Kibble started not because companys wanted to s*** people over, it started because a need was seen that dogs and cats were suffering from malnutrition. Then organizations came into place in order to ensure these companies were actually giving the pets what they needed. Why didnt we just stay with the raw/sooked diets? Point blank it is REALLY REALLY hard to formulate a diet. I know we keep saying the wolf eats this and switch it up and I get blood work done. And I am not bashing anyone who has said this. But I dont think dogs are anything like wolves, they differ by about 1 - 2% in genes, us and chimps differ by 2%. Should we eat like chimps or vice versa? No, they are a differnt animal. Same as the dog and wolf. I think we need to feed dogs like dogs. Now, with the blood work, it really isnt a good way to determine health. I know no one has said anything about it, but I just wanted to mention it from the last post. There is so much individual variation, that blood work really only shows something when it is almost too late. Researchers hate using it for this reason, but if i trial is not terminal it is the only thing we have. I am not saying for people to not do it, I just wanted to shed some information on it. I do think RAW can be done right and I do think a kibble can be done right. I DO NOT think though that we should be adding too much to any diet that it puts strain on the body, such as a higher protien diet. One thing I find everyone no matter what thinks more is always better. I have been hearing of alot of these higher protien kibble diets being the common factor in kidney failure in young dogs (puppies in most cases) all of differnt breeds. In many cases this high protein kibble diets can give even more protien than a RAW diet as there is no wet weight. I just think people need to be more aware of the gimmicks out there. In many cases I am seeing people switch from poor formulas to RAW and seeing differences then you believe that is the best diet there is. I am not saying it isnt, or it is. I am just saying this is a trend I am seeing, who is to say it still is the best? Maybe there is another diet out there even better? As well, every animal is differnt such as every person is differnt, and not every diet is made for every dog or cat. But I really really think proper education is better, not well they did this so it will work for me, and forums like this are good to get some ideas to then further research from real science (which I cannot push enough - the only way we can prove something is better or not). Like I have said and will say again, a chicken in Florida is not the same Chicken in Alberta Canada, their carcass will be very very differnt, kibble and RAW both face this.


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## DogLuver (Oct 19, 2011)

magicre said:


> to the OP...it's kind of a touchy subject to speak about raw...but...
> 
> if you are ever interested, read the subjects in the raw section and maybe that will help you.


Thank you for your opinion magicre, I have read LOTS AND LOTS in the RAW section of this forum, and some others, and like I said, I feel that it is what would be best for my dogs and I'm working towards it. Thanks again for your input.



mythbuster said:


> How much time do you think I have in a day???? I have a full time job... I wish I had enough time to have multiple personas........
> Reality is, when you study nutrition and talk nutrients and safety and quality, the same answers keep coming up. Doesn't make us the same person, just means we've found the same answers.
> 
> I've been a member of another forum for several months and I have to say, it's refreshing to have found someone that understands nutrition the way I do, that's what made me join this forum in the first place.


I'm trying not to judge you MythBuster or The Expert, but I see where Magicre is coming from, there have been some heavy trollers on this thread, so everyone has their guard up. Mythbuster and The Expert have joined at the same time, and are giving the same information that contradicts what many many other people on this forum believe, and it's similar to what the "troller" would say, but I do believe you are 2 different, educated people, I'm just trying to figure out if what you're saying is true/correct. No offense, I don't want this thread to get ugly!!!!

_*Reality is, when you study nutrition and talk nutrients and safety and quality, the same answers keep coming up. Doesn't make us the same person, just means we've found the same answers. *_ There are other people who study nutrition and talk nutrients, safety, and quality and very different answers come up, the opinion coming from the two of you (mythbuster and The Expert) are very unique, and this is why everyone is questioning what you're saying (and some getting fed up with your answers I guess). I'm not stating that you both are wrong, so don't get the wrong impression, but I also understand why you both are under the spot light.


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

:usa::usa::usa::usa::usa::usa:


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

:usa::usa::usa::usa::usa::usa:


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## wolfsnaps88 (Jan 2, 2012)

myth buster....do you work for Royal Canin or something? All the foods you suggested are Royal Canin brand. I know when I suggest food to people, I recommend more than one brand. Not every dog does well on the same brand. I know you like that brand...but...yeah. 

The Expert...I think you are either myth buster as well, or westminterofthree . But, I have to agree with you on something. Whole model prey is inclusive of hair and stomach contents. I also agree that for fiber in a diet, dogs should be eating the hair/fur of their prey. They should eat the animal whole. 


There are a lot of great kibbles out there, I am not here to knock kibble. I do believe in rotation though. I mean, I really love Wheaties. But sometimes, I want Lucky Charms or Cookie Crisp. Wheaties has more fiber, Lucky Charms has more ....horseshoes. Um, ok bad analogy. But variety can't be a bad thing and what one food lacks, another can provide. 

You have to do what is best for your dog. If they are doing good now, GREAT. If you want to try something like raw, then lets meet up on the raw forum and we can chat. Unless....this thread was to talk to anti~raw people to see what they have to say?

In which case, I am listening (well, reading...) as I want to learn as much as possible too


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## DogLuver (Oct 19, 2011)

whiteleo said:


> Dogluver, I've not pointed this at you, Just about every 3-4 months or so someone pops up and does the same old song and dance, probably the same person just different user name and IP address. They always try to discredit anything to do with r-- feeding, (I feel bad about using the word here) and I've just had enough! I've been here awhile and get tired of it because kibbles only been around maybe 100 years, so what were people feeding before that?


Gotcha  I hear ya about the person who comes back under different IP addresses....it's ridiculous I agree.


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

:usa::usa::usa::usa::usa::usa:


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## DogLuver (Oct 19, 2011)

wolfsnaps88 said:


> *1)* There are a lot of great kibbles out there, I am not here to knock kibble. I do believe in rotation though. I mean, I really love Wheaties. But sometimes, I want Lucky Charms or Cookie Crisp. Wheaties has more fiber, Lucky Charms has more ....horseshoes. Um, ok bad analogy. But variety can't be a bad thing and what one food lacks, another can provide.
> 
> *2)* You have to do what is best for your dog. If they are doing good now, GREAT. If you want to try something like raw, then lets meet up on the raw forum and we can chat. Unless....this thread was to talk to anti~raw people to see what they have to say?
> 
> In which case, I am listening (well, reading...) as I want to learn as much as possible too


1) bahahahaha....lucky charms.....horseshoes.....hahaha thanks for that, good laugh!!!!
2) Thank you, I am looking into RAW, and I will definitely start posting in the RAW forum when I do, this thread was sort of SORT OF to see what the anti-raw people have to say, and just to learn as much as I can, I didn't know exactly where to put it, because it sort of addresses both kibble and RAW and nutrient/digestability...so sorry RAW feeders/Kibble feeders for the discrepancies, I sorta wanted to address both.


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## mythbuster (Jan 23, 2012)

wolfsnaps88 said:


> myth buster....do you work for Royal Canin or something? All the foods you suggested are Royal Canin brand. I know when I suggest food to people, I recommend more than one brand. Not every dog does well on the same brand. I know you like that brand...but...yeah.


Like I said, I look for a company I trust, and I look for a diet within their options to suggest. Royal Canin happens to be the company I go to first because in my opinion they are unmatched by any other company when it comes to research, quality control, and safety. If none of their diets work, I work down my list of companies looking for options until we come up with the right solution for the individual. I don't recommend a list of companies from the get go because I don't believe they are all the same quality, and I don't believe in a 'one size fits all' approach.


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## The Expert (Jan 25, 2012)

Acutally I am me and no one else. I honestly am new to forums, I have always tried to stay away for the reason of not wanting to start a fight. But the more I actually teach seminars the more I am seeing a need for educating outside of this method. I am not hear to tell anyone what to do, as I have said before what you feed your pet is your perogative and what I feed is mine. However, I do feel that unbias information just stating facts is improtant for every pet owner who wants to do the best for their furry friends. I do not fully understand the ideas behind RAW personally as I see some flaws, the same way you see flaws in kibbles. It will always be like the argument who came first the chicken or the egg. The knowledge I have gained is from the same way I teach; here are the facts, you decide on your own what is best. I know I will sound like a broken record but I truly beleive in research, this mostly likely comes from research background in toxicology. This is where food safety is a huge thing for me and I know what some companies do in order to ensure this, and I know what others state and how flawed they are. I also know how hard it is in a RAW diet to guarantee toxicity of any compound does not occur. But knowledge is power and more people can learn the better off society will be and the quicker we can change things that are not right. As well the more people can open their eyes and not shout their mouth off at anyone who oposes them the better we will be (I am not accusing anyone on this post about that, just so you know  the last forum maybe haha).


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## The Expert (Jan 25, 2012)

magicre said:


> to the expert:
> 
> kibble was started because two brothers in england thought up a way to make dog food, although in those days, it was dehydrated.
> and then it came to the US and well, we all know what happened then and now.
> ...


I actually do have scientific articles that are published in peer reviewed journals, however, this is here nor there. Also, I have went to many conferences, and those words are used alot, but that is because I am attending animal nutrition seminars that well, we talk about nutrients and what is happening with them. Sorry, if you find this offensive, it is just my common language, as every day i use these words. 

I never said you needed a degree to read anything, I just said that this is where you should get your information from, reviews are even crap (with your medical background you would know that). If we just kept going on reading what everyone in the world had an opinon on then we would never go anywhere. I am not saying read papers by pet food companies either, there is tons of research out there from non pet sources on pets. However, do not judge who funded the paper either. The company who funded my research allowed me to publish all my findings which actually disproved their product. So should we judge all funding sources for being bias? 

I thought this was supposed to be a nice forum, what have I said that has made you feel the need to attack me? Or do you just like to pick at people who have a differnt opion then you?


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

:usa::usa::usa::usa::usa:


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## meggels (May 30, 2010)

Royal Canin is considred top notch over in Europe, aren't they?


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## DogLuver (Oct 19, 2011)

meggels said:


> Royal Canin is considred top notch over in Europe, aren't they?


I'm not sure (someone else will chime in I'm sure)....but meggels, I know you get this a lot, but Murph is just toooooooo cute!!! Your signature picture with his little legs behind him like that...like a froggy awww!!!

I had small dogs my whole life, and decided I would only have big dogs when I had the choice (got older and moved out lol)...but I may get a french bulldog someday, they're just SO DAM CUTE!

Sorry everyone....Back to the topic ....


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## PDXdogmom (Jun 30, 2010)

Putting the possibility of trollers aside,

it is possible to have 2 (or more) well-spoken educated posters who may have varying opinions to what the core of raw feeders believe. I don't see why that should be so impossible to imagine. 

There are many sources of information, studies, theories and unanswered questions regarding nutrition. I, frankly, would find it surprising if everyone did come to the same conclusion.


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## DogLuver (Oct 19, 2011)

PDXdogmom said:


> Putting the possibility of trollers aside,
> 
> it is possible to have 2 (or more) well-spoken educated posters who may have varying opinions to what the core of raw feeders believe. I don't see why that should be so impossible to imagine.
> 
> There are many sources of information, studies, theories and unanswered questions regarding nutrition. I, frankly, would find it surprising if everyone did come to the same conclusion.


I agree, it is very possible that we have 2 well-spoken educated posters here...I'm trying to be open minded  It's a good learning opportunity to hear from different experiences, and different ideas/opinions...it IS a good thing but people try to fight over it, try to learn from it (whether you believe a persons opinion or not). If someone is spewing absolute crap information you'd know, I don't see that happening here, whether the information is correct or not, it makes us think, and helps us learn.


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## pogo (Aug 28, 2011)

meggels said:


> Royal Canin is considred top notch over in Europe, aren't they?


Nope  it is pushed alot here at vets as is hills etc but is not that widely used TBH


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## Celt (Dec 27, 2010)

Well, I don't know much about what makes up "good" foods, but I'll give my opinion anyways (I'm in a "mood"). So, I've had dogs for what seems like forever, have fed everything from scraps to raw, what some considered absolutely horrendous foods (Ol' Roy) and better quality ones. Now, I've been blessed (knocking on wood) in that not one (except for a parvo incident) of my dogs has lived less than 14 yrs and most of those have been what many consider large breeds and without any "serious" health problems. 
My belief is to find a diet that your dog thrives on, "no" health problems, looks and feels good, "likes" to eat, and that you can accept/like/deal with. I also believe that to feed anything just one "food" is setting yourself and them up for a lot of problems. When I fed kibble, I changed what they eat constantly. I don't mean a "rotation", at least the kind I've read about here, or a slow change over. I bought 2 or more bags of kibble at a time, whatever brands I felt like. Sometimes this meant foods they'd had before or something totally new. Didn't even stay within "companies" and then every day they got one or another of what was available. I believe that it was this kind of feeding that was the main reason, I never (knock on wood) had any kind of "digestive upset". Another reason, might be that we never saw a reason not to feed "extras". I will admit to being a little nervous feeding chicken bones but I never had a problem feeding other bones. So my reccommendation, would be to feed what works for you and your dogs. If you feel they'll do "better" on something else try it, if it doesn't work go back to what works, or try something else until you find what you need/want in a diet.


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## MollyWoppy (Mar 19, 2010)

mythbuster said:


> Like I said, I look for a company I trust, and I look for a diet within their options to suggest. Royal Canin happens to be the company I go to first because in my opinion they are unmatched by any other company when it comes to research, quality control, and safety. If none of their diets work, I work down my list of companies looking for options until we come up with the right solution for the individual. I don't recommend a list of companies from the get go because I don't believe they are all the same quality, and I don't believe in a 'one size fits all' approach.


Please correct me if I am wrong, but wasn't Royal Canin one of the many companies who had products recalled during the 2007 melamine scare?


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## JustaLilBitaLuck (Jan 15, 2012)

mythbuster said:


> To take a step back, when I'm choosing a diet for a patient, first I make a list of companies that I feel produce optimal nutrition.


I was wondering which companies are on your "list"? You don't have to list them all, maybe just a "Top Five" or a "Top Ten"?

I work at a pet food store, and I always try to judge a food by it's ingredients as well as my feelings/opinions about the company that produces it - I think both are important, so I was just wondering which companies made your list!


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## meggels (May 30, 2010)

pogo said:


> Nope  it is pushed alot here at vets as is hills etc but is not that widely used TBH



Ahh okay. I thought that it had originated in Europe for some reason and was considered very reputable and top notch.


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## meggels (May 30, 2010)

MollyWoppy said:


> Please correct me if I am wrong, but wasn't Royal Canin one of the many companies who had products recalled during the 2007 melamine scare?


Yup:

Royal Canin recalled products on 20 April 2007 due to the presence of a melamine derivative in the rice protein concentrate in some of its dry pet food products.[4] The South African subsidiary stated, "We at Royal Canin want to express our support and condolences to owners whose pets may have fallen ill or passed away as a result of eating our food."[5]



And I was right that it originated over in Europe (France) by a veterinarian. That's why I thought it was considered a premium food over there...


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## meggels (May 30, 2010)

I do think RC is an interesting dog food company. Dunno why. Their marketing of the breed specific formulas annoys me though. I'd never personally feed it. We had a client frenchie stay with us for a bit, and the owner sent RC Bulldog with it. The kibble was yellow and smelled pretty darn awful. 


Royal Canin has nine production operations:
Aimargues, southern France
Cambrai, northern France
Johannesburg, South Africa
Rolla, Missouri, USA
Descalvado, Brasil
González Catán near Buenos Aires, Argentina
Dmitrov near Moscow, Russia
Castle Cary near Bristol, UK
Guelph, Ontario, Canada
One further production facility is under construction in Poland.


Interesting that they have so many production companies all over....


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## pogo (Aug 28, 2011)

meggels said:


> Ahh okay. I thought that it had originated in Europe for some reason and was considered very reputable and top notch.


don't get me wrong it is used as is hills, but NOT that much and is more widely regarded as shite!


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## mythbuster (Jan 23, 2012)

JustaLilBitaLuck said:


> I was wondering which companies are on your "list"? You don't have to list them all, maybe just a "Top Five" or a "Top Ten"?
> 
> I work at a pet food store, and I always try to judge a food by it's ingredients as well as my feelings/opinions about the company that produces it - I think both are important, so I was just wondering which companies made your list!


The only time I look at an ingredient list is if I have a known food allergy and am trying to avoid a specific ingredient. Beyond that, the ingredient deck is useless as a source of information. It doesn't give any indication of the nutrients being supplied in the diet by the individual ingredients, of the quality of the ingredients, processing, etc..... 

As I stated before, RC is generally the first company I recommend for a patient for the following reasons: 
-I believe their quality control is light years ahead of any other commercial companies
-they are constantly doing research to improve the products they have or create new nutritional options
-they do clinical trials that go way beyond aafco
-there are a lot of diet options, so there’s almost always a diet that fits the nutritional specs I’m looking for. 
…........If I had a cat come in diabetic, I wouldn’t give the owner the option of using Caninsulin, Humilin, or Glargine.... I would tell them that Glargine is the best option and that’s what I would prescribe. If the Glargine didn’t work, then I would look at other insulin options. 

If RC doesn’t work for whatever reason, I will typically go to one of the following: 
Welcome to Pet Diets
Rayne Clinical Nutrition
https://secure.balanceit.com/index.php?
Sign Up for a Case Study | Nature's Variety
HILARY'S BLEND (formerly THE BALANCER) supplement for home-made meals
and there are a couple of prescription Purina diets that I will recommend for specific health conditions.


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## mythbuster (Jan 23, 2012)

The melamine disaster was a tragedy that affected thousands of pets and pet owners. It impacted both prescription and retail diets, and if you’ll recall, human baby formula. It happened because a product supplier intentionally added melamine to their wheat gluten to falsely elevate the protein level. Until it happened, it never occurred to anyone that something like that could ever be possible. 

It affected the larger food companies because the supplier of some ingredients was the same for different companies. It happened because these companies were lied to by the supplier. The fact that some companies were not affected does not mean that they were better, it means they were lucky. The affected ingredients were not cheap. They were sabotaged. Unless you are going to personally harvest every ingredient that goes into a diet and personally deliver it to the production facility, suppliers are a necessity. Every pet food company relies on suppliers. 

Royal Canin is extremely stringent with regards to who and where ingredients come from, and every ingredient source must qualify through an intense screening process. Learning from the melamine disaster and moving forward with that knowledge, they incorporated NIRS testing into that process. This test provides the fingerprint of the raw ingredients as well as the finished product. This is done IN ADDITION to several other tests to ensure consistent superior quality, on every single batch of ingredients and final products. If there is a contaminant, be it biological or inert, intentional or otherwise, the NIRS test will identify that the ingredient or product is not what it’s supposed to be. 

I feel confident supporting Royal Canin because they learned from the melamine disaster and improved themselves, so the next time a supplier sabotages an ingredient source (and maybe next time it will be a US supplier, or a Canadian supplier....), I can be assured those ingredients will not make it into the Royal Canin products I am recommending for my patients. Even if the company isn't looking for a specific contaminant, the test will identify it. How many companies do you think have this level of quality assurance? 

I wish the melamine disaster had never happened. But I'm relieved that there are some (sadly, not many) companies that took it seriously enough to develop methods to ensure nothing like that will ever happen again.


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## mythbuster (Jan 23, 2012)

Celt said:


> When I fed kibble, I changed what they eat constantly. I don't mean a "rotation", at least the kind I've read about here, or a slow change over. I bought 2 or more bags of kibble at a time, whatever brands I felt like. Sometimes this meant foods they'd had before or something totally new. Didn't even stay within "companies" and then every day they got one or another of what was available.


The concern I have with rotating diets is this; The more protein sources an animal is exposed to, the more potential allergens are on the list if the animal ever presents with a food allergy, meaning it will be more difficult to find an appropriate diet that the animal is not allergic to. This goes especially for puppies with soft stool, because the gut is already more permeable, so larger protein pieces are passing through the gut and are more likely to initiate an allergic response by the body.


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## DogLuver (Oct 19, 2011)

mythbuster said:


> The concern I have with rotating diets is this; The more protein sources an animal is exposed to, the more potential allergens are on the list if the animal ever presents with a food allergy, meaning it will be more difficult to find an appropriate diet that the animal is not allergic to. This goes especially for puppies with soft stool, because the gut is already more permeable, so larger protein pieces are passing through the gut and are more likely to initiate an allergic response by the body.


I've heard this several times. And I understand/agree, when trying to decide an allergy...but for the rest of those dogs that don't have allergies, or problems with any of the foods that are rotating...do you agree that rotating is a good idea? Or are you against the idea all together?


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## biancaDB (Nov 3, 2011)

mythbuster, are you a Royal Canin rep or something? I can't quite understand why you think feeding a dog corn is acceptable or why you push Royal Canin to everyone who asks for dry food opinions? I don't need a response explaining why "high quality" corn is so great though, because in MY opinion there's no such thing as good quality grains or vegetables for any dog.


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## Caty M (Aug 13, 2010)

DogLuver, I would keep your lovely dogs on the foods they are on, with rotating proteins, if they are doing well, until the time comes to switch to raw later on! Acana and Orijen are both from Champion foods, which have a pretty good track record and have always answered my emails pretty quickly. If you did want other options, Innova EVO (though I don't think they have a LBP formula, but for your older dog), Horizon Legacy, Back to Basics and Go! are all good brands. 

I'll admit, I never understood the whole reasoning behind the "omg, it's so complicated to formulate a diet!" thing. I mean, you feed yourself don't you? You trust your own judgement enough not to eat a scientifically formulated 'cereal' that provided 100% of your daily nutrition requirement? You (should, at least!) eat a variety of fresh, whole foods, well, it's the same for dogs.. a variety of fresh, whole animals or animal parts. There are a few things to look out for- ie, vitamin A in liver.. but honestly, your dog would get cannon butt far before it got vitamin A toxicity. Unless of course you are feeding arctic/antarctic predator's livers, like polar bear and seal.. those contain a LOT of vitamin A. The other would be salmon poisoning.. freeze the salmon, trout, sturgeon etc caught in the Pacific northwest a few months before feeding or lightly cook. I wouldn't feed wild boar or bear either. Other than that, go nuts :wink:.


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## meggels (May 30, 2010)

I rotate Abbie every.single.bag. No problems so far. I would not want to eat the same kibble day in and day out.


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## greyshadows (Jan 30, 2012)

I recently joined this forum as well and I have to say, it is waaay more interesting than the others I have been on! Come on guys lighten up on mythbuster and the expert they are obviously educated and very well informed, "don't shoot the messenger" just because you don't like the message. What bothers me though is this is the kibble section and so far, every query I've seen has most of the answers given by the raw feeders. Now, I have nothing against them, but I don't choose to feed my dogs that way and you have your own section. Just as you criticize mythbuster for liking royal canin and accusing him of working for them you sound like you have some sort of vested interest in the BARF and PMR diets. I know you like and trust those diets and that's great but others don't choose them at least for now. Back to the issues....
Like Celt has said earlier, I have had my dogs on a lot of varied foods from cheap to expensive and the cheaper worked better (her fur even fell out on Orijen!). Not liking that my vet and I set out to test my Ava to see what was bothering her. After a year and a half we finally discovered it was the probiotics in the high end foods! They put in acidophilus and other "healthy bacteria" but she can't tolerate it. Does anyone know any other premium foods that doesn't have these in them? Right now I am feeding them Purina Selects Turkey (has no grains or soy) but I would like advice on other premium foods.


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## Caty M (Aug 13, 2010)

Well the OP asked a question about raw in this particular thread. I agree it's mentioned too much overall in this section.. but a lot of the time it's relevant especially when I am explaining why I prefer say Orijen over Ol'Roy.. it's closer to a dog's natural diet (raw).


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## shellbeme (Dec 8, 2010)

For what it is worth, I love this forum. I love the information provided here and agree or disagree I also love the different perspectives. I like hearing from raw feeders, premium kibble feeders, and yes I do enjoy reading mythbuster and theexperts posts too. I like to keep an open mind and I hope the debates do not chase anyone off, I think they are healthy and informative


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

:usa::usa::usa::usa::usa::usa::usa:


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## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

I'm pretty sure "vernacular" is a five dollar word


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

:usa::usa::usa::usa::usa::usa:


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## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

magicre said:


> LOL....well, the ivy league does that to a body.
> 
> my father, however, taught me something i consider to be very smart.
> 
> never use a five dollar word when a fitty cent one gets the message across...


Yes - or , “If you cant dazzle them with brilliance, then baffle them with bulls**t.” And that is in the vernacular, of course


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## greyshadows (Jan 30, 2012)

I am not throwing a hissy fit, I too enjoy the debate. However, some of us either have tried or can't or don't want to use a raw diet. I'm glad it works for you, I really am. It works for my brother and his dogs. In fact I thought perhaps I would use a raw or modified diet, but unfortunately my one dog ended up needing emergency treatment after a week eating a raw diet. I live near a very good veterinary college and we saw many vets who said emphatically that she must not have a raw diet. Maybe she has a metabolic disorder, a bacterial issue or something else, we still do not know. My other dog seems to be fine with it, but I don't want to have to worry about them eating each others food. We tried to feed her very good premium food but of the four brands(Orijen, blue buffalo, Halo and Fromm) she had her suspected allergy to probiotics. I just was curious to find another food that might be acceptable to her palate and her allergies. That's the reason I joined this forum, to find answers and maybe chat with others who have food problems or experiences that I have had since getting my sweet dog. I love good debate and welcome it, but I kind of felt like the parent who has friends that keep suggesting their child eat peanuts because they are good for you even though the kid is allergic to them. For whatever reason, (it even puzzles the vets, that's why I was invited to the veterinary college) I have a dog that has a weird stomach. hwell:


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## DogLuver (Oct 19, 2011)

Caty M said:


> DogLuver, I would keep* your lovely dogs* on the foods they are on, with rotating proteins...


Why thank you Caty  I think they're lovely too hehe...we appreciate a compliment every now and again.



greyshadows said:


> I recently joined this forum as well and I have to say, it is waaay more interesting than the others I have been on! Come on guys *lighten up on mythbuster and the expert they are obviously educated and very well informed*, "don't shoot the messenger" just because you don't like the message. What bothers me though is this is the kibble section and so far, every query I've seen has most of the answers given by the raw feeders. Now, I have nothing against them, but I don't choose to feed my dogs that way and you have your own section.


You're right about this forum being interesting, it gets pretty heated at times, but none-the-less....interesting. 

I don't get this (bold) part...the more inquiries, the more people ask questions, the more in depth conversations/debates come about, so "lightening up" on someone doesn't contribute much to a forum like this...and many people come and go, some that are _in fact_ educated and very well informed, and others that give off a GREAT impression that they are educated and well informed, while their sources may not be reliable. I hate seeing people say "just because you don't like the answer someone gave you, doesn't make it wrong"...people are arguing their opinion based on more than just "I don't like this new-comer, and I don't agree with him/her", why is it assumed so often that the people here have their arguments based anger and "internet brain-wash" rather than knowledge and experience, there ARE educated/experienced people here already, just because they're not stating their "degree" and where they were educated. Some people can't handle the debates that go on here, and resort to name calling and "mr/mrs nice guy", while those that can put bias opinions and bullhonkey aside, can really learn a lot. I'm still not sure as to whether I agree with MythBuster or TheExpert...but I'm trying real hard to take in the information provided, and with as much logic and sense, along with my experiences and advice from other sources I trust, make a good decision. I had to start my own thread because this DOES involve both RAW feeding and kibble, and with this "new-ish" information that I'd never heard before, I'm stuck between which way to go, so the debate between RAW and kibble in this thread is educational for me anyhow. Though I gotta add that just because one person is saying Royal Canin is a great company, does plenty of research...and so forth, that's just not enough for me to make that decision. I've heard of many dogs that didn't do well on Royal Canin, and I've heard those stories, opinions, and experiences as well, and I wouldn't disregard them just because someone else has an opposing opinion.

Danemama...I'm sorry if it is getting people to discuss RAW in the kibble section...I didn't know where else to put it??? Let me know if this is a problem, I feel like this thread has been pretty civilized and educational.



shellbeme said:


> For what it is worth, I love this forum. I love the information provided here and agree or disagree I also love the different perspectives. I like hearing from raw feeders, premium kibble feeders, and yes I do enjoy reading mythbuster and theexperts posts too. I like to keep an open mind and I hope the debates do not chase anyone off, I think they are healthy and informative


I completely agree with everything you've said here.



magicre said:


> but, since that will never happen.....once again....i'm outta here....because the one true thing is that most raw feeders came from kibbles of all kinds.
> 
> so, please don't discount what we know, just because we think we found a better way. we have been where you are.


Please don't leave...I appreciate your input, and believe you know what you're talking about! I know a lot of people here "discount" the information that they don't like...but I'm not discounting anything you've said, I find it very helpful 

......

so now my own input/opinion...
Seeing that I'm not a nutritionist, and I do not have the time to take up a new career in processing kibble...I can't resort to the fact that a kibble is only as good as how the ingredients were processed, and the digestibility of each ingredient, how on earth am I going to figure that out about each and every ingredient in each and every kibble. I know (mythbuster) you've recommended Royal Canin, but that's one company, with my personal experience, and knowledge, I wouldn't choose Royal Canin over RAW or Orijen/Acana. I do appreciate you taking the time to help me though mythbuster, so thank you!!!

I also believe dogs are carnivores, and don't need grains. JMO of coarse, but I don't understand how it's debatable whether a species is a carnivore or omnivore...isn't there a right and wrong answer to this? Everywhere I look, anyone I ask, it/they are telling me that dogs are carnivores. Not that this proves my idea to be right or wrong, because, this IS the internet we're talking about here, but if you google "are dogs omnivores" for 3 pages...it comes up with answers why dogs are not omnivores, they're carnivores...so can they ALL be wrong....really? 

As for the person who posted "if I give my dog an apple and a piece of chicken, my dog will choose the apple"...well your dog is a one of a kind IMO...I've NEVER owned a dog who would turn down a piece of raw meat to a piece of fruit, nor have I seen anyone else's dog turn down a piece of meat, but hell...give him the apple if he wants it, does he need that apple??? Will it help him any??? I dunno, beats me???


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## Caty M (Aug 13, 2010)

Dogs don't need grains.. but they just don't need carbs in general. IMO potato is just as bad as any grain out there.. but the "low carb" foods tend to be grain free, ie Orijen and EVO. No kibble can be "carb free".. but you can get as close to that as possible. :wink:


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## meggels (May 30, 2010)

I love the never ending debate of whether or not a dog is a carnivore. 


You would think at least that one fact could be undoubtedly proven LOL.


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## Caty M (Aug 13, 2010)

The only place I ever see "dogs are omnivores" are on dog food company's websites... which makes sense, since the ones that do (like Hill's) are nearly vegetarian.

The Smithsonian classifies dogs as carnivores. The fact that dogs can survive long term on a diet of raw meat, bone and organ only but not on raw fruit, vegetables and grains only says something to me.


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## Caty M (Aug 13, 2010)

I've even seen "Dogs are carnivores!" on the IAMS website.. "That's why meat is the first ingredient!" :wacko:


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## biancaDB (Nov 3, 2011)

greyshadows said:


> I recently joined this forum as well and I have to say, it is waaay more interesting than the others I have been on! Come on guys lighten up on mythbuster and the expert they are obviously educated and very well informed, "don't shoot the messenger" just because you don't like the message. What bothers me though is this is the kibble section and so far, every query I've seen has most of the answers given by the raw feeders. Now, I have nothing against them, but I don't choose to feed my dogs that way and you have your own section. Just as you criticize mythbuster for liking royal canin and accusing him of working for them you sound like you have some sort of vested interest in the BARF and PMR diets. I know you like and trust those diets and that's great but others don't choose them at least for now. Back to the issues....
> Like Celt has said earlier, I have had my dogs on a lot of varied foods from cheap to expensive and the cheaper worked better (her fur even fell out on Orijen!). Not liking that my vet and I set out to test my Ava to see what was bothering her. After a year and a half we finally discovered it was the probiotics in the high end foods! They put in acidophilus and other "healthy bacteria" but she can't tolerate it. Does anyone know any other premium foods that doesn't have these in them? Right now I am feeding them Purina Selects Turkey (has no grains or soy) but I would like advice on other premium foods.


Yes I have a vested interest in PMR but as it was mentioned, nearly all PMR feeders came from kibble. I may have missed it a few threads ago, but did mythbuster ever show us any credentials? It seems to me they research this topic just as any of us do but try to one up everyone else every time they post and quite frankly it's getting old. Many PMR feeders here have no problems recommending a quality kibble either so it's not like they're trying to push raw on any body, they're just here to help but get slammed for feeding raw by SOME PEOPLE every time they post.


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## greyshadows (Jan 30, 2012)

I understand what you are saying Bianca DB, but no one has to show their credentials. I for one am not a professional but one could tell that based on my writings. That's why I am here to ask questions. Mythbuster and the expert just write like they know what they are talking about. No one has to agree, it is just very informative. I enjoy it, I feel like it makes me a better person. I'm not slamming anyone, I just want folks who go on this forum and ask which kibble they use to get answers. They wouldn't be asking if they were happy with what they are feeding! 
After debating here I called my vets office and asked if dogs are carnivores. When she called me back she laughed and said she is going to Cornell University School of Veterinary medicine this summer for a seminar on findings they are researching. She emailed me the tease from the press booklet and said they are discussing their findings thus far with other vets. Here goes:


"There's much debate about whether dogs are carnivores or omnivores. Carnivores absolutely need meat in order to survive. Omnivores can survive on either plant-based proteins or meat-based proteins. Whenwe work with dogs, what we see is that many dogs need several sources of protein in order to feel good. Their survival instincts are connected to a healthy diet. If the diet isn't complete, the nervous system sends off constant alerts that the dog is not safe. This, in turn, leads to behavioral issues. By introducing several sources, a dog's body is able to gather all the nutrients it needs to support the body and the nervous system sends out the message that everything is fine.

Normally we would say your dog needs a meat-based protein source. That being said, many canines are shifting their physical body composition and in this shift, their nutritional needs are changing to a cleaner diet more in line with a omnivores diet." Drs. Dewey and Barr.


My vet also tells me that there is no pet food money involved just research funds from the University. Hopefully they will publish their findings completely so we can find out what are pooches are really about!


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## Caty M (Aug 13, 2010)

Dogs can't survive without meat, unless the plant material they are eating is processed in some way. If a dog were to be dropped on an island with no animals, no fish and no animal products, it would starve. They can't cook. If an animal was dropped on an island where all it could eat was other animals, it would thrive.


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## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

Yes, I would be very interested to know what "behavioral issues" are caused by a lack of some nutrient. 

If were to buy into the fact that dogs are omnivores, I would definitely buy fresh fruit/veggies/whatever just to make sure my dogs weren't being poisoned by aflatoxins or melamine or some other horrible thing people think up to cheap out on dry food.


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## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

Caty M said:


> Dogs can't survive without meat, unless the plant material they are eating is processed in some way. If a dog were to be dropped on an island with no animals, no fish and no animal products, it would starve. They can't cook. If an animal was dropped on an island where all it could eat was other animals, it would thrive.


The dog food industry is very powerful. The PMR industry doesn't exist. Therefore, we are to believe that a dog can be put out to pasture in a cornfield and consider it fine dining.


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## Caty M (Aug 13, 2010)

Of course dogs should get more than one source of protein.. they should get fish, beef, chicken, turkey, lamb and whatever else your budget can afford. :wink: They do not need PLANT protein. Meat contains every essential amino acid and a varied diet will have them in the right proportion for the dog.


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## greyshadows (Jan 30, 2012)

I definately agree dogs do need meat. I guess my husband would say so too! He would starve if I dropped him on a desert island without steak! I see on another thread that there is going to be several vegetarian and vegan food lines. I wonder if anyone will use it and if they will post here?


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## Caty M (Aug 13, 2010)

If dogs need meat they are carnivores :wink:

I doubt anyone would use it on here. Most "dog-savvy" people are NOT impressed with a vegetarian food. All the food is is grains. Your personal beliefs (animal rights etc) shouldn't be imposed on your dog who has no such care in the matter.


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## biancaDB (Nov 3, 2011)

Caty M said:


> If dogs need meat they are carnivores :wink:


thaaaankkk youuuu:thumb:


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## Celt (Dec 27, 2010)

mythbuster said:


> The concern I have with rotating diets is this; The more protein sources an animal is exposed to, the more potential allergens are on the list if the animal ever presents with a food allergy, meaning it will be more difficult to find an appropriate diet that the animal is not allergic to. This goes especially for puppies with soft stool, because the gut is already more permeable, so larger protein pieces are passing through the gut and are more likely to initiate an allergic response by the body.


I wrote a long reply but it "disappeared", so I'll give a shorter version. Most "protein" allergies (from my understanding) are either from "long exposure" or "immediate". It has always been my opinion that "limiting" a pup's diet caused most "sensitivities". In my family, we have, generally, fed a mutlitude of foods from various sources. It is difficult to get a "variety" within a company's "line" because while the "flavor" changes the rest of the "recipe" remains the same. Even different brands often have similar ingredients with only a difference in placement of ingredients, but this is why we add in "extras" (meat scraps, bacon drippings, potato skins) fairly often. 
If I ever own a dog with "sensitivities", I would find a food that worked then I would look for others that have similar "recipes" so as to add at least a minimal variety to its diet. My mind always thinks of worst case scenarios, like what would happen to my dog if, for whatever reason, I'm unable to get that particular food. Better to have a selection to choose from, imo. (hope this made sense)


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

:usa::usa::usa::usa::usa::usa:


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## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

Drew Barrymore just adopted a dog. I wonder what she's going to feed it. Wouldn't it be nice if just one celeb came out and said dogs should be fed meat. I guess that's not the trendy thing to do right now.


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## Herzo (Feb 5, 2011)

I know I haven't read the whole thread just wanted to say to the Weim person I get what your saying about the raw feeders. But they do have some good things to say about Kibble I mean I think everyone started there. So don't discount them and I want them to write in this area. Well goodness I'm one. Where I do have a problem is when someone posts on here and then is asked if they ever thought of trying raw. I guess I think when someone comes on the dry and canned section that's what there looking for. I don't mind when we get into these arguments that any one say's they do raw I think that's normal debate. I just think it would be better to answer questions about kibble and if they stay around at some point I'm sure they will look into the raw section. Then decide on there own if they want to and if they have a question on raw will start to post there.
Goodness if none of the raw people didn't post in the dry and canned and cooked section there wouldn't be much talk. I also like that mythbuster and Theexpert are here even if I don't agree with everything they say every little bit helps us form our own opinion. I do think they know somewhat what there talking about and think they have done research. People just sometimes come to a different conclusion.

Like rotation for instance I think it makes sense to me and feel like celt put it quite well. These threads are for us all not just to post in the ones you are doing at the time. Just because I'm not a dog trainer does that mean I can't post in that section?


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## Emily (Feb 4, 2012)

I have three Great Danes and I feed Earthborn Holistic formula's. They carry holistic formula's and grain free. I feed dry in the morning and raw at night. For my dogs the combination works for their digestive system, healthy structures and show quality coats. There are many brands out there but I particular like this company being USA made, eco friendly and affordable for a high quality food.


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## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

Herzo said:


> I know I haven't read the whole thread just wanted to say to the Weim person I get what your saying about the raw feeders. But they do have some good things to say about Kibble I mean I think everyone started there. So don't discount them and I want them to write in this area. Well goodness I'm one. Where I do have a problem is when someone posts on here and then is asked if they ever thought of trying raw. I guess I think when someone comes on the dry and canned section that's what there looking for.


i agree with you to a point - but I think it's a valid question.

When I was feeding dry food, I never heard of feeding a dog raw food. I was looking for alternatives that would help my dog - when I ran across this site I was thinking about maybe cooking some stuff for my dog. 

So basically I was looking for a better dry food or a cooked food. If no one had asked me "have you thought of raw?" I probably never WOULD have thought of raw.


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## Herzo (Feb 5, 2011)

Well maybe, but how can you belong to this forum and not at some point take a look at the other threads. I just wonder how long it would take raw feeders to get mad if when people came on here looking for how to feed raw a kibble feeder would say well how about a better kibble. I think they would tell them to do it on the dry and canned section.
I'm not trying to start a fight I just think they should get more than one or two posts before this is brought up. When you join you look and you have to know there are the different sections don't you. I guess I do know that maybe some have never thought of it but I think it is brought up a little to soon sometimes.

And I guess I already new about it as I had fed it before and when I found this sight I had already put Turtle on a PMR diet though I didn't know how to do it so when I found this sight it was a god send. I just think we need to be a little careful not to rock the boat so to speak.
And I'll bet you would have looked and probably went to the PMR diet in time anyway. Maybe it would have taken a little longer but maybe not that's all I'm sayin.


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

:usa::usa::usa::usa::usa::usa:


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

:usa::usa::usa::usa::usa::usa::usa:


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## MollyWoppy (Mar 19, 2010)

I think that every single person who is on this forum has a vested interest in the food their dogs eat, whether it's raw or kibble. 
I just feel a bit sad when a lot of people, kibble feeders, who are good people and great dog owners are scared off and made feel bad because of comments like 'doom nuggets.' In my humble opinion, I am thrilled with anyone who has taken the time out to research and think about their dogs health, and as long as they are feeding a quality kibble, cooked or raw, then they are feeding their dogs better than 99% of the people in this world. Isn't that neat?
And, yes, there aren't too many kibble feeders left, and the raw feeders could leave the kibble forum to stutter along. But almost everyone of us has fed kibble, probably started off on very low quality and over time improved to what we truly feel is the best, whether it's a quality kibble, homecooked, premade raw or PMR. We may not have scientific, nutritional degree's, but when I look at my dogs health, my friends dog's health and the comments we get, then it's hard to deny to ourselves that we aren't somewhere on the right track.


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## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

Herzo said:


> Well maybe, but how can you belong to this forum and not at some point take a look at the other threads. I just wonder how long it would take raw feeders to get mad if when people came on here looking for how to feed raw a kibble feeder would say well how about a better kibble. I think they would tell them to do it on the dry and canned section.
> I'm not trying to start a fight I just think they should get more than one or two posts before this is brought up. When you join you look and you have to know there are the different sections don't you. I guess I do know that maybe some have never thought of it but I think it is brought up a little to soon sometimes.
> 
> And I guess I already new about it as I had fed it before and when I found this sight I had already put Turtle on a PMR diet though I didn't know how to do it so when I found this sight it was a god send. I just think we need to be a little careful not to rock the boat so to speak.
> And I'll bet you would have looked and probably went to the PMR diet in time anyway. Maybe it would have taken a little longer but maybe not that's all I'm sayin.


i think there is a difference between:

Have you thought of raw?

and

You should feed raw, it's much better for your dog.

I have been guilty of the latter, for sure. 

I have to admit, I have a hard time not saying something when someone says something like corn is great for dogs. i honestly don't read alot of the kibble threads, but sometimes I do when the topic interests me (like the one on heart issues) or out of curiosity when the thread gets really long. 

Maybe I would have found PMR. I know when I first heard about it I thought just loony tunes would give their dogs bones. 

But I recognize that not everyone wants to do raw - heck, I can't even convince people in my own family that I am not a nutcase.


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## MollyWoppy (Mar 19, 2010)

I mean, maybe I'm taking an over simplistic view, but if corn is broken down to a cellular level and as such is easily assimilated as a nutritional protein (with added vitamins and minerals) in both dogs and cats, why aren't all the dog food companies jumping on it? It must be heaps cheaper to procure and produce than adding meat to their foods.


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## Scarlett_O' (May 19, 2011)

xellil said:


> i think there is a difference between:
> 
> Have you thought of raw?
> 
> ...


TOTALLY agree!!:thumb:

AND if someone had fed raw, to the degree of KNOWING what it can do to your dog(as nearly ALL of us raw feeders have done for kibble/canned/home-made/etc) and where still choosing processed foods(with no money, space, time, laziness issues involved) ONLY because they KNEW that their dog(s) could/would be better on it.....well then MAYBE most of us raw feeders WOULD be welcoming for them to come to the raw section to try and persuade people away from it. But as it is...well I know of NO ONE who has ever done that......yet know of hundreds--well THOUSAND--who have left processed foods for raw!!:thumb:


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## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

Scarlett_O' said:


> TOTALLY agree!!:thumb:
> 
> AND if someone had fed raw, to the degree of KNOWING what it can do to your dog(as nearly ALL of us raw feeders have done for kibble/canned/home-made/etc) and where still choosing processed foods(with no money, space, time, laziness issues involved) ONLY because they KNEW that their dog(s) could/would be better on it.....well then MAYBE most of us raw feeders WOULD be welcoming for them to come to the raw section to try and persuade people away from it. But as it is...well I know of NO ONE who has ever done that......yet know of hundreds--well THOUSAND--who have left processed foods for raw!!:thumb:


That's a very good point.


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## meggels (May 30, 2010)

I think we should let people decide what works well in a combination of factors such as their particular pet, their lifestyle, their space issues, money issues, and commitment, and just let them decide what is the best decision and what they are comfortable with doing. The people that come to this forum are certainly trying to do the best for their pets, and should not be criticized for choosing to feed "doom nuggets". If they were feeding their dogs chicken mcnuggets coated in rat poison, sure. But I think sometimes we really need to realize that just because it might not necessarily be what WE would choose to do, it does not give us the right to bash someone. That's at least what I've learned in the past month or so.


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## Rodeo (Sep 11, 2011)

meggels said:


> I think we should let people decide what works well in a combination of factors such as their particular pet, their lifestyle, their space issues, money issues, and commitment, and just let them decide what is the best decision and what they are comfortable with doing. The people that come to this forum are certainly trying to do the best for their pets, and should not be criticized for choosing to feed "doom nuggets". If they were feeding their dogs chicken mcnuggets coated in rat poison, sure. But I think sometimes we really need to realize that just because it might not necessarily be what WE would choose to do, it does not give us the right to bash someone. That's at least what I've learned in the past month or so.


There are a lot of opposing views here but I don't really remember seeing anyone flat out BASH someone who was doing the best for their dogs. If you come here spewing about how beneful is great for your dog... you're just asking for it. But I think we are all mature enough to know that people have the right to feed as they wish. Can we recommend what we feel is better? SURE! And the recipient has EVERY right to say "no thanks." 

Seems simple enough to me.


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

:usa::usa::usa::usa::usa::usa:


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## meggels (May 30, 2010)

Rodeo said:


> There are a lot of opposing views here but I don't really remember seeing anyone flat out BASH someone who was doing the best for their dogs. If you come here spewing about how beneful is great for your dog... you're just asking for it. But I think we are all mature enough to know that people have the right to feed as they wish. Can we recommend what we feel is better? SURE! And the recipient has EVERY right to say "no thanks."
> 
> Seems simple enough to me.


I've seen it several times, kibble feeders given a hard time for their choice. Snide remarks usually. A lot of the time a simple recommendation is not made. 

Just my two cents


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## Herzo (Feb 5, 2011)

I don't think it happens all the time and I think if the suggestion happens when people are introducing themselves then it's fine. I just have seen it happen a couple of times after someone is in the dry section a little to soon. I do think we all should be able to post anywhere as there are many more PMR feeders than anything here which of course I like about this forum.
And re I did miss most of the barf posts till after the fact. I think that whole thing was sad because we lost a member over it and I find it strange that he was so against it. I like having it. And re I don't know why so many time people think you are arguing, I think your posts are always informative and well put.
I wish we as people weren't so touchy me included. I know even myself when you don't think your being rude are taken that way and have come to know allot of people don't mean it that way. I remember a few months ago a guy came on here looking to help his dogs and was feeding beniful. I can't remember the whole story but I suggested if he had ever thought of feeding a better food and then he was gone. I still feel bad about it, I was just trying to help.
I'm hoping that kibble feeders don't want PMR feeders to stop writing in this section because if they do then it will be a very lonely place.


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