# meat meal?



## Unosmom

I got this article in the mail from Halo:

Why Doesn't Halo Use Chicken Meal?

whats interesting though is that they have supplied an FDA link below which states:


> The weights of ingredients are determined as they are added in the formulation, including their inherent water content. This latter fact is important when evaluating relative quantity claims, especially when ingredients of different moisture contents are compared.
> 
> For example, one pet food may list "meat" as its first ingredient, and "corn" as its second. The manufacturer doesn't hesitate to point out that its competitor lists "corn" first ("meat meal" is second), suggesting the competitor's product has less animal-source protein than its own. However, meat is very high in moisture (approximately 75% water). On the other hand, water and fat are removed from meat meal, so it is only 10% moisture (what's left is mostly protein and minerals). If we could compare both products on a dry matter basis (mathematically "remove" the water from both ingredients), one could see that the second product had more animal-source protein from meat meal than the first product had from meat, even though the ingredient list suggests otherwise.


so this is their food:

Chicken, Eggs, Pea Protein, Oats, Vegetable Broth, Pearled Barley, Chicken Fat (preserved with mixed tocopherols and citric acid), Whole Peas, Chicken Liver, Salmon, Flax Seed, Salmon Oil (preserved with mixed tocopherols), Pea Fiber, Sweet Potatoes, Apples, Blueberries, Green Beans, Carrots, Cranberries, Zucchini, Alfalfa, Inulin, Calcium Sulfate, Potassium Chloride, Taurine, Salt, Vitamins (Folic Acid, Vitamin A Supplement, Vitamin D3 Supplement, Vitamin E Supplement, Choline Bitartrate, Niacin, d-Calcium Pantothenate, Ascorbic Acid, Riboflavin Supplement, Thiamine Mononitrate, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride, Biotin), Minerals (Zinc Proteinate, Iron Proteinate, Cobalt Proteinate, Copper Proteinate, Manganese Proteinate, Calcium Iodate, Sodium Selenite), Lactobacillus acidophilus, Bifidobacterium longum, Enterococcus faecium, Lactobacillus plantarum.

Does it mean then that most of the protein comes from eggs and pea protein and not chicken since its exclusive of water. 

I actually think they're trying to make their food sounds better then it is, but hiding behind the chicken, when in fact majority of the protein comes from pea protein, which is the same as pea meal.


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## DaneMama

That is exactly what they are doing unfortunately. The ingredients in dog food are listed by their weight PRIOR to processing. So chicken weighs the most because of the water content, but after processing all the water is taken out placing it much further down the list. Its an easy way for companies to get the best of people who don't know how it really works. The bags of dog food are supposed to say that the ingredients are listed by weight before processing, but its usually in microscopic print in an obscure place


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## rannmiller

Haha there's no meat meal in that food at all!


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## Unosmom

I know the whole thing is a joke. Its like saying whey protein is bad because its a byproduct of a cheese manufacturing, no it doesent sound pretty, but its the most popular source of protein among atheletes.


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## Unosmom

Whats funny is that theyre coconspiring with Pet promise which has horrible ingridients as the only foods that do not have meat meals in them.

What about Iams, purina, science diet? all those have a chicken as a first ingridient and no specified meat meals. :wink:


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## allisonglass123456

*Kibble is not the best dog food*

You say that Halo has no meal like that is a bad thing. 

1. Dogs never ate kibble until after WWII. They were healthier then eating our scrapes. 
2. Do you really know what is in meat & bone meal? 

You should read this article "In a September, 1995 article titled What's Cooking , Baltimore City Paper takes their readers through Valley Proteins, Baltimore's only rendering plant with very graphic pictures of dead animals stuffed into barrels, one picture shows a dead dog ; another is of fried animal parts! Neil Gagnon, general manager of Valley Proteins says that 150 million pounds of rotting flesh are fed into the plants grinders and cookers each year to produce 80 million pounds of the plants three products; meat and bone meal, tallow and yellow grease. Most goes into chicken feed, the rest into dry pet food." at


HTML:


http://vonhapsburg.homestead.com/petfood.html

Feeding your dog *ONLY* dry kibble is terrible. I'll say it! 

Dry kibble was created by BIG BUSINESS. The same people who make your twinkies, sodas, etc who obviously care more about your $ than your health. Read the article from Balt. City Paper & you can see big business is making $ from waste products. 

Learn what's really in dog food:
Good dog food sites

http://www.truthaboutpetfood.com

petfood

Ethoxyquin in Pet Foods

The Dog Food Project - Ingredients to avoid

Pet Food Ingredients

Pet Food information, manufacturers, products, ingredients, cat, dog, pet food.

I always feed my dogs freeze dried dog food or Halo kibble WITH Premium wet dog food or chicken soup w/ veggies & brown rice. I also give them organic free range hormone free eggs, human grade fish oil, & human grade joint supplements.


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## RawFedDogs

allisonglass123456 said:


> I always feed my dogs freeze dried dog food or Halo kibble WITH Premium wet dog food or chicken soup w/ veggies & brown rice. I also give them organic free range hormone free eggs, human grade fish oil, & human grade joint supplements.


Dang!! As I'm reading this post, I'm thinking, "This person has figured things out" only to find in the last sentence she still feeds her dog commercial dog food. She doesn't quite have it figured out, yet, but maybe real soon it will finally hit her. :biggrin:


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## 1605

RawFedDogs said:


> Dang!! As I'm reading this post, I'm thinking, "This person has figured things out" only to find in the last sentence she still feeds her dog commercial dog food. She doesn't quite have it figured out, yet, but maybe real soon it will finally hit her. :biggrin:


I don't think it's ethical to have an exclusively Raw Feeding forum where you can talk about raw feeding to your heart's content (Raw Feeding - Dog Food Forum) only to come into other areas like this one and insinuate that those of us who have chosen not to feed raw are wrong, ignorant, bad pet owners, etc. 

Sometimes there is a true feeling of community here. The way that people help each other out here is commendable. The way they snipe at you if you aren't part of the RF club is not.


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## Unosmom

allisonglass123456- you need to get your facts straight.

Unspecified meat meal ( poulty meal, meat and bone meal) means the manufacturer can use various sources chicken, turkey and in some cases euthanized animals. 

SPECIFIED MEAT MEAL( chicken meal, lamb meal, etc)- is muscle meat with moisture and fat boiled out of it, which leaves behind dry concentrated protein and if you feed kibble, it should make up the bulk of it. 
Why? because if chicken is listed as the first ingridient, its not a true first ingridient since the water is removed and its moved down the list, so the true ingridient becomes whatever grain or carb that follows, in case of HALO its pea protein. 

Good quality kibble should have a named meat first (ex. chicken) followed by a named meat meal ( ex. Chicken meal). 

If you buy from a reputable company ( innova,wellness, natures variety, orijen, etc), the meat is inspected and is passed to be suitable for human consumption. In fact you can go to their factory tour to see how the food is made. 

My original post is to make people see how misleading Halo makes their product to be, truly chicken is not the first ingridient on the list, but pea protein is, and unless your dog is a turtle, then I'd pick something that is meat based. 

If you've actually looked at those links, you'd see my point exactly. One of the most reputable sources the dog food project:

The Dog Food Project - Identifying better products



> What to look for:
> ►Specifically named meats and meat meals such as chicken, chicken meal, turkey, turkey meal, lamb, lamb meal, duck, duck meal, beef, beef meal, eggs and so on.
> ►The following are lesser quality ingredients and are not found in truly high quality products, but may be present in smaller amounts (not as the main protein ingredients) in "mid range" foods: fresh byproducts indicating a specific species (e.g. beef/chicken/turkey/lamb byproducts), corn gluten, corn gluten meal.Products that include these as main ingredients should be avoided.





> What to avoid:
> ►All generic meat ingredients that do not indicate a species (meat, meat byproducts, meat byproduct meal, meat meal, meat & bone meal, blood meal, fish, fish meal, poultry, poultry byproducts, poultry meal, poultry byproduct meal, liver, liver meal, glandular meal etc.)
> 
> ►Byproduct meals, even if a species is identified (chicken/beef/turkey/lamb byproduct meal etc.), since highly questionable ingredients may be used in these rendered products.
> ►Any food that contains corn (ground or otherwise) as a first ingredient, especially if corn gluten meal is also a main ingredient and no concentrated source of identified meat protein (e.g. chicken meal, lamb meal etc.) is present.
> ► Corn gluten or soy(bean) meal as main ingredients. Note: Not all dogs tolerate soy products! Small amounts, especially of organic soy, are okay as long as a dog is not sensitive. There are only very few products on the market that include high quality soy ingredients, none of them sold at grocery stores or mass retailers.





> Contrary to what many people believe, meat sources in "meal" form (as long as they are from a specified type of animal, such as chicken meal, lamb meal, salmon meal etc.) are not inferior to whole, fresh meats. Meals consist of meat and skin, with or without the bones, but exclusive of feathers/hair, heads, feet, horns, entrails etc. and have the ... Read Moreproper calcium/phosphorus ratio required for a balanced diet. They have had most of the moisture removed, but meats in their original, "wet" form still contain up to 75% water. Once the food reaches its final moisture content of about 9-12%, the meat will have shrunk to sometimes as little as 1/4 of the original amount, while the already dehydrated meal form remains the same and you get more concentrated protein per pound of finished product. This means that in the worst case you are left with only 4 ounces of actual meat content per pound of fresh meat included in a dry kibble, many of which contain less than one pound of meat per 2-3 pounds of grain to begin with. Preferably a food contains quality meat meal as well as some fresh meat


I think the main confustion comes from the fact that they use generalized " meat meal" which can be anything, on the other hand if its specified meal like chicken meal, its fine.


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## RawFedDogs

Unosmom said:


> If you buy from a reputable company ( innova,wellness, natures variety, orijen, etc), the meat is inspected and is passed to be suitable for human consumption. In fact you can go to their factory tour to see how the food is made.


Unosmom, you made a very good and informative post ... with one exception which I have quoted above. Meat in dog foods is not inspected by anyone. It is refuse from human food processing plants and garbage from grocery stores and restaurants. The food my have been inspected at one time when it was in those plants but as soon as it's loaded on the truck going to the renedering plant it is no longer human grade. It is usually been kept in unrefigerated bins and then shipped in unrefigerated trucks to the rendering plant. It bears no resemblance to food you would find in a grocery store or restaurant. This is true of all kibbles regardless of the company of manufacture. Rendering plants just don't get good meat. It's not what they do.


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## Unosmom

RFD- I know thats whatever I say, you'll spin it into raw/kibble debate( yet again), nto all companies use garbage to manufacture their product, a lot of the smaller premium food companies have their own plants where fresh meat is shipped to them to be rendered and extruded into kibble. Of course it cannot be labeled human grade by FDA but its inspected and pass the USDA requirement. 
So if the meat is fresh, non-diseased, passed to be safe for consumption, thats kinda all that really matters. 

FAQ's - Safety and Quality | Nature's Variety

Champion Petfoods | F.A.Q

Dog & Cat Food Developments from a Natural Pet Food Manufacturer – Natura Pet Products


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## RawFedDogs

Unosmom said:


> RFD- I know thats whatever I say, you'll spin it into raw/kibble debate( yet again),


I'm not spinning anything into anything. Just factually stating that there is no "human quality" meat in kibble. Just the act of dumping it on the floor or in a bin at the rendering plant ruins any possiblity of it being human quality. Rendering plants do not deal in human quality meat.



> nto all companies use garbage to manufacture their product, a lot of the smaller premium food companies have their own plants where fresh meat is shipped to them to be rendered and extruded into kibble. Of course it cannot be labeled human grade by FDA but its inspected and pass the USDA requirement.


You're taking up CB's habit of quoting from kibble company's promotional material. If' it's graded by FDA and inspected and passed USDA requirement it CAN be labeled as USDA inspected. Once it arrives at the rendering plant its not anymore. Think of it as taking a good T-bone steak and dropping it in a septic tank. Once it hits the septic tank, it is no longer a "good T-bone steak". 

Several dog food companies claim to use human quality products and possibly they were at some stage but not at the time they are rendered and extruded. ALL food at human food processing plants are human quality until they are not anymore because of something during the processing. Once it becomes refuse, it's no longer human quality. Dog food companies use refuse. 

_*Doing The Math:*
Now when I go to the grocer or health food store and find these types of ingredients in raw, unprocessed, fresh packaged form, I don't see hardly anything for $1 a pound, let alone 50 cents. Some of the organic meats are more than $15 a pound! Something's afoul. But people are just not putting two and two together. How could a producer buy such expensive ingredients (as they are leading the public to believe they do) transport them to their "human grade" factory, grind, mix, extrude, retort, freeze, package, ship, advertise and pay salespeople and hefty margins to distributors, brokers and retailers and then sell them at retail for less than the cost of the bare starting materials? They can't. So obviously manufactured pet foods making such claims are misleading (to put it gently). They may have organic filet mignon and caviar in the food but it would have to be an inconsequential sprinkle at best. Consumers must do the math and get realistic in their expectations._ http://www.wysong.net/health/hl_969.shtml



> So if the meat is fresh, non-diseased, passed to be safe for consumption, thats kinda all that really matters.


Not really. If it's inspected at some stage then mixed with dirty stuff, it is no longer what was inspected.


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## Unosmom

What is this "dirty stuff" you speak of? have you actually been to the manufacturing plant and witnessed it? No? well I have and there are still few companies that care about intergrity and animal welfare. The rules and regulations are enforced and if this food indeed was so contaminated, why would they spend thousands of dollars on extensive testing to make sure thats its safe for the dogs to eat? 
A lot of the meat also comes from the grocery stores thats expired and cannot be sold to general public, but its completely fine to be fed to animals as long as its frozen. A lot of raw feeders will buy expired meats and freeze it for months. Aside from the fact that some of use chose to feed kibble, I dont see how thats any different.


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## RawFedDogs

Unosmom said:


> What is this "dirty stuff" you speak of?


The "dirty stuff" is very spoiled garbage meat and agriculturial products that come into the rendering plant and are dumped there. Stuff that was never from the beginning of its existance every human quality food. This former human quality stuff you are talking about comes in and is dumped in containers that formerly held that "dirty stuff".

"have you actually been to the manufacturing plant and witnessed it? No?"

I have been to a rendering plant and I've been to a beef slaughtering house and I've been to a chicken processing plant. So I guess my answer to your question would have to be "yes".



> well I have and there are still few companies that care about intergrity and animal welfare.


Maybe so but they don't make dog food.



> The rules and regulations are enforced and if this food indeed was so contaminated, why would they spend thousands of dollars on extensive testing to make sure thats its safe for the dogs to eat?


There are basically no rules and regulations concerning dog food other than it must be properly labeled. No sanitation rules at all.



> A lot of the meat also comes from the grocery stores thats expired and cannot be sold to general public, but its completely fine to be fed to animals as long as its frozen.


I have talked to many and I mean many grocery stores about getting their expired meat. I have been unsuccessful. The store I shop at regularly told me what they do with their expired meat. They take it out back and dump it in a normal garbage bin. The only thing in this bin is expired meat and meat scraps. ONCE A WEEK a truck from the rendering plant (At the grocery store, they call it "the dog food plant"), picks up the meat that has been in the unrefigerated bin for up to a week. The truck is unrefigerated also. This is some of the "dirty stuff" you get at the rendering plant.

As a side note ... I remember a story on TV news about 3 or 4 years ago about a truck going from a human food processing plant to the rendering plant had a wreck, spilling its cargo all over the road. It took the highway department 3 days to find someone willing to clean up that stinking mess. That was stuff bound for some dog food company.



> A lot of raw feeders will buy expired meats and freeze it for months. Aside from the fact that some of use chose to feed kibble, I dont see how thats any different.


OH, I have fed my dogs rotten meat on occasion. You never saw me claim it was human quality. 99.9% of the meat, bones, and organs they get ARE human quality. They come straight from the grocery store to my house.

*ETA:* Whats your comment about "Do the Math" in my post above? Does it make sense to you?


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## Unosmom

No it actually doesent, if it makes you feel any better, you can read this first hand experience of someone who actually toured such facility:

Green Dog Pet Supply Dog Food Nirvana – My Tour of Natura’s Facilities


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## claybuster

RawFedDogs said:


> You're taking up CB's habit of quoting from kibble company's promotional material.


Any raw feeding/carnivore theme that came about after 1972 are all followers, not leaders. Lonesdale and Billinghurst were still in grade school when the Robert Abady Co was selling frozen packaged lung. Lonsedale and Billinghurst are early 90's people. They learned from Robert Abady (more like stole his concepts). In other words, these guys were still riding the yellow school bus when Abady first introduced raw feeding in the USA.


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## RawFedDogs

Hehe, I know used car dealers who have been in buisness for over 50 years. They are still used car dealers. Promotional material is promotional material. It is not science. It is designed with one purpose in mind ... to make you want to buy their product. It seems to have done its job with you. :smile:


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## Unosmom

Not all pet food manufacturing plants are filthy and disgusting, instead of relying on some preconcieved notion, you should actually visit a facility whose main priority is the health and well being of animals, not some generic mass produced grocery store kibble run by a giant corporation like Proctor and Gamble or Nestle.


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## RawFedDogs

Unosmom said:


> Not all pet food manufacturing plants are filthy and disgusting, instead of relying on some preconcieved notion, you should actually visit a facility whose main priority is the health and well being of animals, not some generic mass produced grocery store kibble run by a giant corporation like Proctor and Gamble or Nestle.


Hehe, If I knew of one relatively close by, I would do that. Don't care enough about it to travel all the way to the mid west. BTW: I have known Christine (the author of the web page you linked to in your previous post) for about 10 or 12 years. I knew her when she worked as a primate keeper at Zoo Atlanta and I was a volunteer there. I did some web page work for her for a couple of years on Orangatan.com. We discussed raw feeding back then. I haven't talked to her in several years but best I remember, she was feeding her dog a raw diet. Don't know what she is feeding now.

BTW: Did you go to the Natura website and watch the movie of their manufacturing processes? DId you notice they didn't show the rendering process? Wonder why? I must admit, it is a good promotional film.


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## Unosmom

I've contacted Natura couple days ago and heres the response I got:

Thank you for contacting Natura Pet Products. We do not have our own rendering facility. All animals have received ante- and post- mortem inspection at USDA approved facility with no evidence of systemic disease of animal and human health significance. The meat meets all USDA/FDA standards for product safety, where applicable.


Natura’s products are subjected to well over 100 defined quality control checks throughout the manufacturing process. Along with the use of only the highest-quality ingredients, these structured and rigorous checks ensure a high-quality and safe pet food product.


Multiple tests must be passed and specifications must be met for all raw materials and at many key control points during the manufacturing process before any food, treat or supplement makes it out of the manufacturing facility and onto the shelves of your local retailer.


Some of the key points in Natura’s Quality Management and Manufacturing Process that have numerous checks are:

• Material Supplier Selection & Approval
• Delivered Raw Material Inspection, Analysis & Traceability
• Accurate Recipe Assembly & Consistent Mixing
• Monitoring of the Cooking Process with In-process Specifications Confirmed
• Correct Packaging Verification & Tracking
• Ingredient & Finished Product Testing including for melamine & cyanuric acid
• Warehouse Inventory Management with Full Traceability of Ingredients & Finished Products
• All checks conducted require quality control verification. Some of the checks used involve laboratory analysis for a nutrient such as protein or for a potential naturally occurring toxin such as aflatoxin.


Other checks involve a sensory assessment by an experienced technician for product characteristics such as color and aroma. In addition, many more in-depth analyses on a detailed and structured schedule are performed on both raw materials and finished products.


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## RawFedDogs

Thats great promotional material. I wonder what response you would get from Hill's or Pruina or P & G if you contacted them in the same way? Why don't you try it? :smile:


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## Unosmom

*yawn*... yes, everything is a conspiracy for you 

moving on...


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## RawFedDogs

Not a conspiracy ... just wondering if they use the same flowering words to describe their manufacturing processes as Natura. Are you afraid they will?


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## Unosmom

No, they have not given me a reason to doubt them, you can ask hundreds of pet owners who switched from grocery store to good quality kibble how their pets have thrived and have made full recovery from various disorders. Now how would that be possible if they all followed the same recipe?


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## jdatwood

Nobody said they followed the same recipe.... ??


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## Unosmom

RFD is insinuating that all rendering facilities are disgusting and unsanitary, the bin thats used for ol'roy is the same one thats used for orijen or other premium brands, its never cleaned and yet somehow none of the brands I've mentioned have been involved in the recalls due to contamination even though thousands of people use them with great results.


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## jdatwood

I fully understand what he's insinuating. 

Saying that they use crappy meat, poor sanitation, etc. doesn't imply the same recipe...


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## claybuster

RawFedDogs said:


> Hehe, I know used car dealers who have been in buisness for over 50 years. They are still used car dealers. Promotional material is promotional material. It is not science. It is designed with one purpose in mind ... to make you want to buy their product. It seems to have done its job with you. :smile:




Twist it around any way you like, the facts speak for themselves. Robert Abady was selling raw meat diets when Lonesdale and Billinghurst were still riding the yellow school bus.

Lonesdale and Billinghurst had a goal, to sell books. Abady on the other hand 20 years prior, was already selling raw meat products, interested in the health and welfare of the animals, not book sales.


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## Unosmom

sorry for miswording, I mean recipe for how the food is cooked, not the actual ingridient list.


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## RawFedDogs

claybuster said:


> Twist it around any way you like, the facts speak for themselves. Robert Abady was selling raw meat diets when Lonesdale and Billinghurst were still riding the yellow school bus.


Doesn't have anything to do with the accuracy of his promotional material. Remember teh purpose of promotional material. To sell kibble. I give him credit for being real good at writing promotional material but thats all.



> Lonesdale and Billinghurst had a goal, to sell books. Abady on the other hand 20 years prior, was already selling raw meat products, interested in the health and welfare of the animals, not book sales.


Well do you expect him to tell you his food is no better than anyone elses? of course he's not going to say that. Why would you buy his product if he told you that. Ever hear a used car salesman tell you the car he is trying to sell you is junk? :smile:

I will repeat something I said earlier, "Always be wary of information someone gives you when he is going to make money from a decision you make on that information."

Tom and Ian are not in that category. You buy their product before you get the information.


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## RawFedDogs

Unosmom said:


> RFD is insinuating that all rendering facilities are disgusting and unsanitary, the bin thats used for ol'roy is the same one thats used for orijen or other premium brands, its never cleaned and yet somehow none of the brands I've mentioned have been involved in the recalls due to contamination even though thousands of people use them with great results.


Here is the web page from a rendering plant. It explains what they do. No where do they say, "we take in human quality animal parts and convert it into dog food or handle it in any way." or do they say anything about handling anything but garbage. Rothsay | Learn how Rothsay is creating a renewable future


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## claybuster

RawFedDogs said:


> Doesn't have anything to do with the accuracy of his promotional material. ...


yea yea yea, blah blah, blah.... all you got is information from people trying to sell books...on already long established concepts in feeding...no different than writing books about how mice like cheese.

Abady was selling Raw in 1972. Lonesdale and Billinghurst starting writing books about raw concepts in '92. They had to write about it to help those with extra freezer space figure out dogs like meat, fat, blood, and bone.


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## RawFedDogs

claybuster said:


> Abady was selling Raw in 1972. Lonesdale and Billinghurst starting writing books about raw concepts in '92.


Actually if you would actually read some of these books, Tom's first book, Raw Meaty Bones Promote Health was more about why not to feed kibble than it was about eating raw. There was only one chapter devoted to eating raw. It wasn't until his second book came out about 5 years ago or something that the goes into the "how to" of eating raw.

Tom and Ian worked together in the beginning until they had a big split about veggies. Ian headed off in the BARF direction while Tom when in the RMB direction. Ian is now selling pre-made patties and Tom isn't selling anything I know of. Tom's 2nd book, _Work Wonders_, was free for the first couple of years it was in print so to say he is just out to sell books is a big stretch. I have a PDF file of that book that Tom sent me just before publication. I didn't agree with everything in it and had some discussions about some of the points but in the end it's his book and he can include what he wants. :smile:

You don't seem to be able to grasp the concept that Abady is a businessman and as such his first duty is to maximize profits. He does that, just like Hill's, by extensive promotion.


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## Unosmom

again it doesent prove that all companies use the same methods of rendering.


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## RawFedDogs

Unosmom said:


> again it doesent prove that all companies use the same methods of rendering.


Rendering is rendering. You don't render good meat. Good meat is very valuable and rendered meat is almost worthless. Did you read the web page I linked to about the rendering plant? Rendering is a process to dispose of garbage. Thats what it was designed to do and its what it does. 

Its the same principle as you don't grind up filet mignon to make hamburger meat. Filet is $18+/lb and hamburger is less than $2/lb. Scoll back and re-read *Doing the Math* in a previous post in this thread. If you stop and think about it seriously you will see they just can't do it. They would have to charge at least $200 for a 40lb bag of kibble and not make hardly any money at that price.

*ETA:* I know you want to believe the food you are feeding your dog is wonderful, tasty, pretty, clean, human quality food but it just isn't so. KIbble is the refuse from human food processing plants. Just doing the math will prove that. You can't build a new Rolls Royce for $10,000 and you can't make kibble out of the food you think for under $1/lb.


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## claybuster

RawFedDogs said:


> Actually if you would actually read some of these books, Tom's first book, Raw Meaty Bones Promote Health was more about why not to feed kibble than it was about eating raw. There was only one chapter devoted to eating raw. It wasn't until his second book came out about 5 years ago or something that the goes into the "how to" of eating raw.
> 
> Tom and Ian worked together in the beginning until they had a big split about veggies. Ian headed off in the BARF direction while Tom when in the RMB direction. Ian is now selling pre-made patties and Tom isn't selling anything I know of. Tom's 2nd book, _Work Wonders_, was free for the first couple of years it was in print so to say he is just out to sell books is a big stretch. I have a PDF file of that book that Tom sent me just before publication. I didn't agree with everything in it and had some discussions about some of the points but in the end it's his book and he can include what he wants. :smile:
> 
> You don't seem to be able to grasp the concept that Abady is a businessman and as such his first duty is to maximize profits. He does that, just like Hill's, by extensive promotion.


Extensive promotion???? Have you ever seen it sold it stores? Ever seen a TV commercial, magazine article? Where does Abady extensively promote their products...off a website they just put together a few short years ago? A website with no pictures, just words is extensive promotion? Abady could have easily expanded up to 4 times from its current operations and chose not too based upon the current status of our dog population and availability of raw materials. Our dog population is out of control due to cheap omnivore food products. If everyone tomorrow decided to feed their dogs properly, there simply isn't enough raw material to go around. Abady is not trying to maximize it potential in business, on the contrary, they set limits.

Promotional data from Abady:



> With the size of the dog population as it stands to-day, even if a fraction of the people who own dogs decided to feed properly, there simply would not be enough quality feed-grade, raw materials available to meet the demand.
> This would force prices to rise on existing supplies and require the use of feeding materials that are currently sold for human consumption.
> 
> Dogs and Cats are at the top of the food chain and require much higher levels of fat & protein in their diets if they are not to break down.
> The cost of feeding dogs and cats under this scenario would rise dramatically and the dog population might shrink to a size that would match people's ability to take care of their animals on realistic terms.
> 
> For this reason, and others, the Abady Company has decided to limit the maximum growth of its company to under four times its present size.


You see RFD, it is not all about dollars and cents for Abady, it is about what is right for the animals.

Now, anybody can write books about how dogs like meat and fat, blood and bone, how mice like cheese, etc. But everyone already knows that. These guys like Billinghurst and Lonedale are authors, book writers, with one goal in mind, to sell books to make money. If your book writers were asked where can I purchase some quality raw meats for my dog, they might very well say try from frozen beef lung from the Robert Abady Co. You see, there are those who just write about it and the health benefits, and those actually manufacture and sell the products.

When I saw a package of frozen lung in a pet shop freezer from Abady, I thought to myself who the heck is going to buy this stuff...but there is a market for it coming from the raw feeders. Being that Abady has been selling raw since '72, when your people came around with books 20 years later, they no doubt given a promotional boost to the raw products being sold by Abady Co.


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## RawFedDogs

claybuster said:


> Extensive promotion???? Have you ever seen it sold it stores?


He can only find a few stores to sell his stuff.



> Ever seen a TV commercial, magazine article?


Those things cost more money than he has. It is almost free to write outlandish things on a web page to sell your product.



> Where does Abady extensively promote their products...off a website they just put together a few short years ago?


Obviously it's all he can afford.



> A website with no pictures, just words is extensive promotion?


He won't have to sell a lot more before he can afford a camera and then he can have pictures on his site. 



> Abady could have easily expanded up to 4 times from its current operations and chose not too based upon the current status of our dog population and availability of raw materials.


AND the availability of money.



> Our dog population is out of control due to cheap omnivore food products. If everyone tomorrow decided to feed their dogs properly, there simply isn't enough raw material to go around. Abady is not trying to maximize it potential in business, on the contrary, they set limits.


Why is it that when I have a discussion with you, I feel like I am really discussing with Abady and he is just using you as a conduit.



> You see RFD, it is not all about dollars and cents for Abady, it is about what is right for the animals.


What you don't see is that it IS about dollars and cents. It's why Abady is still a hole in the wall company.



> Now, anybody can write books about how dogs like meat and fat, blood and bone, how mice like cheese, etc. But everyone already knows that. These guys like Billinghurst and Lonedale are authors, book writers, with one goal in mind, to sell books to make money.


I guess you missed the part in my previous post about Tom giving away his last book for 2 years.



> If your book writers were asked where can I purchase some quality raw meats for my dog, they might very well say try from frozen beef lung from the Robert Abady Co. You see, there are those who just write about it and the health benefits, and those actually manufacture and sell the products.


You know, I've discussed buying raw food with Tom several times. I can't remember him once mentioning Abady.


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## Unosmom

I get raw chicken for $1 per lb, they can probably get it wholesale for $.10 or less, ... so no, your calculations dont add up.


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## RawFedDogs

Unosmom said:


> I get raw chicken for $1 per lb, they can probably get it wholesale for $.10 or less, ... so no, your calculations dont add up.


Nope, they won't get whole chicken for $1/lb. MAYBE they might get chicken meal for that price. Chickens weigh 3 or 4 lbs usually. At $.10/lb that would be $.30 to $.40 per chicken. It costs more than that to feed a chicken throughout it's short life, haul it to the processing plant and run it down the line. You have to pay truck drivers, assembly line people, sales people, electricity for freezers, trucks to haul them to final user, etc. Like I said, doing the math will teach you a lot.


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## Unosmom

I was going to type up a bunch of stuff, but I dont want to waste anymore time on this pointless headbutting. 

I've emailed couple more companies for some insight regarding their regulations, but I'm quite happy with Natura's response and will continue to feed it in my rotation of foods.


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## steve

I have first hand been to the Natura Facility in 2007. I did a fairly extensive tour with about 15 people who own pet food stores. I first hand saw the Chicken and Turkey used along with the cottage cheese, apples etc all go into a auger(sp) The smaller inspection facility just outside the Larger facility where they inspect the ingredients before they come into the main one. The different colored brooms that match the different colored sections of the plant to prevent cross contamination. I have been to Wendell Belfield center and seen their staff care for the animals that live their. It was pretty amazing all in all.


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## claybuster

RawFedDogs said:


> Here is the web page from a rendering plant. It explains what they do. No where do they say, "we take in human quality animal parts and convert it into dog food or handle it in any way." or do they say anything about handling anything but garbage. Rothsay | Learn how Rothsay is creating a renewable future


From the webpage of Rothsay:



> Animal by-products are collected from butcher shops, restaurants, supermarkets, farmers, abattoirs and other operations to be processed under high temperatures in order to remove water and to eliminate bacteria.


If the animal starts off to be used for the human consumption, i.e., from the butcher shop or supermarket, that meat and whatever leftovers derived there from obviously are human grade quality as well. There is no getting around that no matter how some people like to twist that around. Even if the animal part was discarded in a bin as an undesirable part of leftover, it doesn’t change the meat itself from human grade to something less.


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## RawFedDogs

claybuster said:


> Even if the animal part was discarded in a bin as an undesirable part of leftover, it doesn’t change the meat itself from human grade to something less.


Oh, man!!!! Yes it does!!! If, during the processing at the slaughter house, if a T-bone steak falls off tne conveyer belt onto the floor, it is no longer human grade. In that instant it's classification changed.

Once meat is thrown in the bin or loaded onto the truck to the rendering plant it is no longer human grade. When a grocery store puts the meat in the "throw away" bin out back, it is no longer human grade.

Those are just the rules that define the term "human grade". I didn't make them up. The FDA or USDA did.

*ETA:* Any kind of meal (chicken meal, lamb meal, meat meal, etc) is NEVER human grade.


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## claybuster

RawFedDogs said:


> Oh, man!!!! Yes it does!!! If, during the processing at the slaughter house, if a T-bone steak falls off tne conveyer belt onto the floor, it is no longer human grade. In that instant it's classification changed.
> 
> Once meat is thrown in the bin or loaded onto the truck to the rendering plant it is no longer human grade. When a grocery store puts the meat in the "throw away" bin out back, it is no longer human grade.
> 
> Those are just the rules that define the term "human grade". I didn't make them up. The FDA or USDA did.
> 
> *ETA:* Any kind of meal (chicken meal, lamb meal, meat meal, etc) is NEVER human grade.


Nope, the fact that it is no longer going to end up going to the human consumption market, does not mean the meat parts were not human grade or quality to begin with. You have a piece of steak that fell on the floor, all that means is it is not going to be sold to the human consumption market. That meat has not under gone any changes other than the fact it landed on the floor and got dirty.

Chickens in this county are killed for the human consumption market. Therefore all parts and by-products are human grade. That fact the humans don't eat doesn't make a hoot of difference, it is still human grade.


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## RawFedDogs

claybuster said:


> Nope, the fact that it is no longer going to end up going to the human consumption market, does not mean the meat parts were not human grade or quality to begin with.


Everything is human grade in the beginning.



> Therefore all parts and by-products are human grade.


There is no way by-products are ever classified as human grade.



> That fact the humans don't eat doesn't make a hoot of difference, it is still human grade.


Actually one of the definitions I have read about human quality specifies that if humans don't eat it, its not human quality.


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