# New here: Diamond Naturals vs. 4Health



## palominotwist

Hi all!

I'm new here, and looking for some advice on dog food. I have a 13 month old GSD/collie mix (my avatar) named Timber and an 8 year old beagle, Bonnie. (I also have a cat, chickens, and a horse.)

Anyways, to make a long story short, I had fed Purina One to several dogs over the years with good results, but now they've changed formulas and Purina One Smartblend is awful, so I've been researching my other options. (Smartblend made both dog's coats go to crap, and my beagle's eyes have been runny & I don't like her poops.) I currently am adding fresh eggs from our own chickens to their food.

The two brands I came up with that are in our price range and corn/soy/wheat free are Diamond Naturals and Tractor Supply's 4Health. (And yes, I know that they are not the "best," but they seem to be "better" brands.)

Now, here is where I need assistance: Besides price, and 4Health including glucosamine & chondroitin in all foods (not just the large breed formulas), what are the main differences between these two in terms of quality, etc?

Also, do you think it's beneficial for the GSD to stay on a "large breed" food? She's my first large breed dog, and had been on large breed food from when I got her as a pup until I tried the Smartblend about a month or two ago. 

(And if anyone's a cat person, I think I'm switching my kitty Hemi to 4Health's all life stage food.)

Thank you all so much, I appreciate it!
Jess


----------



## saltydogs

4 Health is made by Diamond as well. I know a few breeders using it and they seem to like it. You can also try Costco's Kirkland, which is also made by Diamond but is much cheaper than 4 Health or Diamond Naturals. I believe the Costco food is $23.99 for 40lbs. People that use it give it high marks.

What you will find on many forums is that people slam products they have never used just by reading labels.

The other recommendations I have are Canidae ALS & Pro Pac.

You will find many recommendations for Orijen, Acana and several other very expensive foods that have no known benefit, except to the company that sells them.


----------



## Doc

I don't think you will see much difference between Diamond Naturals Lamb and Rice and 4Health.


----------



## Caty M

Kirkland is a mid ranged food, and canidae is alright as well.. both are made by diamond. Pro pac has corn.. which I would avoid.. because of coat issues and allergies.

I think for the price Taste of the Wild is a great grain free food for a decent price. Don't just look at the price, look at the ingredients as well.. you will be feeding less of the TotW because there is no fillers like rice. Your dog's poops will be smaller as well. I think it would be no more expensive to feed than Purina One, and probably cheaper.

Acana and Orijen are great foods with many benefits to the dog, but they ARE on the pricier side. Check out Taste of the Wild. It's part of the rotation my dog's breeder was on.. and she feeds working herding dogs.


----------



## saltydogs

"Pro pac has corn.. which I would avoid.. because of coat issues and allergies"

This is what I am talking about. This person has absolutely nothing to support this. Every Vet school in country has looked into this and the answer is Rice & Corn have same incidence of allergies.

Please refer me to the scientific journal that say corn causes coat issues & allergies???

Please send me the link.


----------



## Caty M

This is why.. I am recommending a grain free food, which has neither. 

I am only going from my own experiences, with my two cats and my parent's dog, ALL THREE who have a corn allergy (not one to rice, wheat or soy). Either way, any grain is a mostly indigestable and cheap source of protein and filler... which would be better off being replaced by meat.

Anyway, I am still recommending the grain free food due to filler and allergy issues, it's a great price and can be found at Tractor Supply. If you like, here are the ingredients:

Bison, venison, lamb meal, chicken meal, egg product, sweet potatoes, peas, potatoes, canola oil, roasted bison, roasted venison, natural flavor, tomato pomace, ocean fish meal, choline chloride, dried chicory root, tomatoes, blueberries, raspberries, yucca schidigera extract, Enterococcus faecium, Lactobacillus casei, Lactobacillus acidophilus, Saccharomyces cerevesiae fermentation solubles, dried Aspergillus oryzae fermentation extract, vitamin E supplement, iron proteinate, zinc proteinate, copper proteinate, ferrous sulfate, zinc sulfate, copper sulfate, potassium iodide, thiamine mononitrate (vitamin B1), manganese proteinate, manganous oxide, ascorbic acid, vitamin A supplement, biotin, calcium pantothenate, manganese sulfate, sodium selenite, pyridoxine hydrochloride (vitamin B6), vitamin B12 supplement, riboflavin (vitamin B2), vitamin D supplement, folic acid.

4Health: 

Chicken, chicken meal, cracked pearled barley, millet, brewers rice, chicken fat (preserved with mixed tocopherols), dried beet pulp, natural chicken flavor, flaxseed, fish meal, potassium chloride, salt, choline chloride, dried chicory root, glucosamine hydrochloride, vitamin E supplement, iron proteinate, zinc proteinate, yucca schidigera extract, copper proteinate, ferrous sulfate, zinc sulfate, copper sulfate, potassium iodide, thiamine mononitrate, manganese proteinate, manganous oxide, chondroitin sulfate, ascorbic acid, vitamin A supplement, biotin, niacin, calcium pantothenate, manganese sulfate, sodium selenite, pyridoxine hydrochloride (vitamin B6), vitamin B12 supplement, riboflavin, vitamin D supplement, folic acid.

Diamond Naturals:

Lamb, lamb meal, cracked pearled barley, whole grain brown rice, egg product, chicken fat (preserved with mixed tocopherols), millet, beet pulp, potatoes, flaxseed, natural flavor, fish meal, potassium chloride, salt, choline chloride, dried chicory root, Yucca schidigera extract, vitamin E supplement, iron proteinate, zinc proteinate, copper proteinate, ferrous sulfate, zinc sulfate, copper sulfate, potassium iodide, thiamine mononitrate, manganese proteinate, manganous oxide, ascorbic acid, vitamin A supplement, L-Carnitine, biotin, niacin, calcium pantothenate, manganese sulfate, sodium selenite, pyridoxine hydrochloride (vitamin B6), vitamin B12 supplement, riboflavin, vitamin D supplement, folic acid


So both the two brands you listed are close to the same.. they are pretty decent.


----------



## kevin bradley

I wouldn't lose too much sleep on the 4Health --or-- Diamond Naturals decision. They are both manufactured by the same company...ingredient lists are nearly identical. Personally, I'd buy whichever is least expensive. 

For pete's sake, I saw Diamond Naturals Red Meat(whichever formula that is) on sale recently for 19.99 for 40 lbs. 

I wouldn't put any weight into Glucosamine.... most of believe its a gimmick and the levels are too small to have much if any impact. If you believe in Glucosamine(and there is some real evidence to indicate it doesn't do much for humans, not sure about Dogs)...I would supplement with it outside of the food. 

Don't be ashamed of Diamond Naturals or 4health. While they aren't the best, they are certainly decent foods and a nice option for those on a budget. I'm starting to give more slack to Diamond in lieu of their recent commitment to ommitting Ethoxyquin as a preservative and the associated guarantee.


----------



## cprcheetah

saltydogs said:


> "Pro pac has corn.. which I would avoid.. because of coat issues and allergies"
> 
> This is what I am talking about. This person has absolutely nothing to support this. Every Vet school in country has looked into this and the answer is Rice & Corn have same incidence of allergies.
> 
> Please refer me to the scientific journal that say corn causes coat issues & allergies???
> 
> Please send me the link.


http://www3.interscience.wiley.com/journal/118793301/abstract?CRETRY=1&SRETRY=0
Evaluation of the clinical and allergen specific serum immunoglobulin E responses to oral challenge with cornstarch, corn, soy and a soy hydrolysate diet in dogs with spontaneous food allergy
H. A. Jackson* , M. W. Jackson*, L. Coblentz‡ and B. Hammerberg†
*Department of Clinical Sciences, †Farm Animal Health and Resource Management, North Carolina State University, 4700 Hillsborough Street, Raleigh, North Carolina, USA ‡Evesham Veterinary Clinic, 800 Route 73 South, Marlton, New Jersey, USA
Correspondence to H. A. Jackson, Department of Clinical Sciences, North Carolina State University, 4700 Hillsborough Street, Raleigh, NC 27606, USA. E-mail: [email protected]
Copyright © 2003 European Society of Veterinary Dermatology
KEYWORDS
dog • food allergy • hydrolysed protein • IgE • intradermal test
Abstract
AbstractINTRODUCTIONMATERIALS AND METHODSRESULTSDISCUSSION

Abstract Fourteen dogs with known clinical hypersensitivity to soy and corn were maintained on a limited antigen duck and rice diet until cutaneous manifestations of pruritus were minimal (78 days). Sequential oral challenges with cornstarch, corn and soy were then performed. Subsequently, the dogs were fed a diet containing hydrolysed soy protein and cornstarch. Throughout the study period the dogs were examined for cutaneous manifestations of pruritus and, additionally, serum was collected for measurement of allergen-specific and total immunoglobulin (Ig)E concentrations. Intradermal testing with food antigens was performed prior to entry into the study and after 83 days. A statistically significant clinical improvement was measured between days 0 and 83. Significant pruritus was induced after oral challenge with cornstarch, corn and soy (P = 0.04, 0.002, 0.01, respectively) but not with the hydrolysed diet (P = 0.5). The positive predictive value of the skin test for soy and corn allergy was reduced after feeding a soy and corn free diet. Although increases in soy and corn-specific serum IgE concentrations were measured in individual dogs post challenge they were not statistically significant and could not be used to predict clinical hypersensitivity.


----------



## cprcheetah

saltydogs said:


> "Pro pac has corn.. which I would avoid.. because of coat issues and allergies"
> 
> This is what I am talking about. This person has absolutely nothing to support this. Every Vet school in country has looked into this and the answer is Rice & Corn have same incidence of allergies.
> 
> Please refer me to the scientific journal that say corn causes coat issues & allergies???
> 
> Please send me the link.


Dog Food Allergies This was from a published book:
Dog food allergies are linked to skin diseases in dogs (1). The gold standard for dog food allergies is the elimination diet. By removing suspected food allergens from your pet’s diet you may see a decrease in your best friend’s food allergy related symptoms.

Dog food may contain many highly allergenic foods such as wheat, corn, dairy, and soy (2). Based on a September, 2002 study published in Advances in Small Animal Medicine and Surgeryhese are the foods that may be the most allergenic for dogs:

* Beef – 34%
* Dairy – 20%
* Chicken – 20%
* Wheat – 16%
* Egg – 7%
* Lamb – 5%
* Soy – 5%
* Corn – 3%
* Pork – 2%
* Rice – 2%
* Fish – 1%

It looks like the foods dogs eat the most might be, or maybe “beef”, the cuplrits. After eating these foods your pet may experience an allergic reaction or it may not. There are common types of food allergies: IgE and IgG.

The IgE type reaction usually causes an immediate reaction and can cause swelling of the throat and other tissues that come in contact with the allergen.

The other type of dog food allergy is called an IgG type reaction or delayed hypersensitivity. The effects of this food allergy, if your dog experiences them, may take days to manifest. Thus, this type of food allergy is often hidden from the pet owners and more difficult to diagnose.

As I said at the beginning of this article, the gold standard for food allergy testing is the elimination diet. Many doctors prefer skin testing for IgE food allergies because elimination diets can be difficult to do because the diet can be very restrictive. A skin test involves injecting a small amount of the food allergen under the skin of the dog and waiting to see if a redness develops around the site. The bigger the red area or inflammation the more likely a food allergy has been detected.

There are other blood tests that seek to determine IgE food allergies. These involve drawing a sample of blood from the dog and testing it to see how many antibodies for different foods there are present in the dog’s blood stream. The accuracy of these tests is often disputed and some food allergies may be missed. Thus, if you suspect your dog has a food allergy and the test says its negative you do not have enough evidence to give your dog that food. It may be dangerous to base your dog’s diet on a blood test!

Currently, there is no test that I know of specifically to determine IgG dog food allergies. These are the “hidden food allergies” I discusses above. The benefit of testing for these types of food allergies is that you then have a guide to do a rotation diet. Rotation diets involve removing the suspected food for several days to see how symptoms change and then reintroducing the food to see if the symptoms reappear.

Research is being done at Meridian Valley Lab on dog food allergy testing

1. Griffin, CE. Skin immune system and allergic diseases. In: Scott, DW; Miller, WH; Griffin, CE (eds). Muller and Kirk’s Small Animal Dermatology. WB Saunders,Philadelphia PA, 2001.
2. Which Ingredients are Most Likely to Cause Food Allergies in Dogs and Cats?


----------



## palominotwist

*Large breed food?*

Thank you all for your input, I appreciate it. (Although the posts slamming each other are awkward...)

For those of you with adult large breed dogs- do you feed a large breed formula or just regular adult food? Large breed formulas seem to be lower in protein, fat, and calories, but is a special feed necessary if you monitor their weight to keep them fit and provide exercise?


----------



## DaneMama

Sorry that people are slamming each other on your thread. Just ignore it. It will be handled :wink:


----------



## RawFedDogs

palominotwist said:


> Large breed formulas seem to be lower in protein, fat, and calories, but is a special feed necessary if you monitor their weight to keep them fit and provide exercise?


Absolutely not!!! These large breed formulas as well as puppy, senior, etc are all marketing gimmics designed to convince you that this particular food was formulated with your dog in mind. The differences in them are so small as to make no practical difference.


----------



## cprcheetah

palominotwist said:


> Thank you all for your input, I appreciate it. (Although the posts slamming each other are awkward...)
> 
> For those of you with adult large breed dogs- do you feed a large breed formula or just regular adult food? Large breed formulas seem to be lower in protein, fat, and calories, but is a special feed necessary if you monitor their weight to keep them fit and provide exercise?


When I was feeding Shellie kibble (I feed raw now) I didn't feed a Large breed formula as my research showed they are just a marketing ploy to sell more dog food. I fed her Wellness Core, TOTW Pacific Stream & Blue Wilderness when she was eating kibble.


----------



## buddy97

palominotwist said:


> Thank you all for your input, I appreciate it. (Although the posts slamming each other are awkward...)
> 
> For those of you with adult large breed dogs- do you feed a large breed formula or just regular adult food? Large breed formulas seem to be lower in protein, fat, and calories, but is a special feed necessary if you monitor their weight to keep them fit and provide exercise?


as a large breed owner, the only thing i stay away from are higher Calcium contents, and only while they are doing most of their growing (mainly in many of the grainless foods, except orijen and a couple of the acana formulas)....once they are done growing i dont worry about Ca levels. 

there are adult foods that are fine for a large breed puppy, but IMO most of the grainless foods are not. heck, even Wellness themselves warns against feeding their most expensive product (Wellness Core) to large breed pups due to Cores Ca level. (dont you think they would love to sell more Core to puppy owners??)

puppy or adult, i am completely unconcerned about higher protein levels if they are at least coming mostly from animal products. i also dont worry much about fat levels or calorie counts. most of the more meat filled kibbles are going to have 450+ calories per cup.

more importantly than calories or fat are monitoring how much you feed and keeping yopur dog lean and strong.


----------



## cast71

TOTW Sierra Mountain formula looks good for large breed puppies. The calcium level is 1.6% and the phosphorus level is 1.0%. For large breed adults, all formulas are good. Just make sure you keep them lean, puppy or adult.


----------



## palominotwist

buddy97 said:


> as a large breed owner, the only thing i stay away from are higher Calcium contents, and only while they are doing most of their growing .


I've heard that before...However, how to you figure out the calcium content of a feed if the percentage isn't listed? Both 4Health and Diamond Naturals list "calcium pantothenate" on the label, but don't give a specific percentage. Or, should I not really be concerned anymore since she's 13 months now and seems to be done growing (at least height wise)?


----------



## cast71

If the company doesn't list it, you need to call them up. Diamond large breed formula lists calcium and phosphourous levels. They don't list maximum calcium levels. I was looking this up for a friend last week, so I called them up. I think it was 1.4%(can't remember :biggrin They don't list it for the rest of the formulas. Ideal is 1.5% or lower for calcium and 1% and lower for phosphourous. If your pup is done growing, than you dont have to worry about it. My dog and my sisters dog are on TOTW and are doing great:smile: If you could afford it, I would pick that over diamond naturals. Otherwise diamond naturals, 4health and Kirkland signature will be fine. My friends dogs are on diamond natural and they look good.


----------



## buddy97

palominotwist said:


> I've heard that before...However, how to you figure out the calcium content of a feed if the percentage isn't listed? Both 4Health and Diamond Naturals list "calcium pantothenate" on the label, but don't give a specific percentage. Or, should I not really be concerned anymore since she's 13 months now and seems to be done growing (at least height wise)?


at 13 months, i would not worry about it at all. your dog will add some muscle mass, but the skeleton has done most of its growth, if not all.


----------



## buddy97

cast71 said:


> TOTW Sierra Mountain formula looks good for large breed puppies. The calcium level is 1.6% and the phosphorus level is 1.0%. For large breed adults, all formulas are good. Just make sure you keep them lean, puppy or adult.


i never cared for foods like that for my growing GSD because i want to have more meat content, and at only 25% protein and only 337 calories, i know there isnt much meat in there. i dont understand why TOTW watered down the Sierra and Pacific Stream formulas.


----------



## cast71

Yeah, I wish it had higher protein and fat levels like the other 2 formulas. They did this to keep the pacific and sierra formulas, the same price as the wetlands and praire. Otherwise they would have had to jack the price up, wich is what they should have done. I still use them, as I rotate all 4 formulas 

Also when comparing calorie content, I use kcal/kg. kcal/cup is not a measurement of weight, its how much kibble can fit in an 8oz. cup. kcal/kg is better to compare different kibbles. Even though the calorie content is not much lower, it doesnt make up for the lower protein percentages :frown:


----------



## kevin bradley

I agree Derek. I've never understood the lower protein numbers on the TOTW formulas... Duck and Bison(not sure of the exact names) are up in the 30+% range. 

It does tell me on 2 of the flavors, they may not be putting "grains" in the food, but they are loading it up w/ potatoes or some vegetable that isn't a grain. 

A bit deceptive but I don't feel like any of them are awful to include in a rotation.


----------



## Caty M

danemama08 said:


> Sorry that people are slamming each other on your thread. Just ignore it. It will be handled :wink:


Sorry, I didn't mean to slam anyone.. I was just trying to state my opinion.. will refrain from posting on this topic..


----------



## DaneMama

bishopthesheltie said:


> Sorry, I didn't mean to slam anyone.. I was just trying to state my opinion.. will refrain from posting on this topic..


It wasn't your post that was being referenced. No worries, by all means post up! :wink:


----------



## ruckusluvr

i just wanted to say that i have used both 4health and naturals before. i was pleased with both! Honestly, i have to feed the SAME amount of TOTW pacific stream as i do 4health and naturals.
but on pacific stream poops are smaller. and their skin and coat is much better than when they were eating 4health and naturals.

but as far as feeding less??? no not really. maybe it depends on your dog...

however on blue buffalo i can feed quiet a bit less than on those three foods.
the blue buffalo WITH grain at that!


----------



## rescuedoglover

I have two rescued Standard Poodles. Poodles and some other breeds are susceptible to tear staining. I avoid any foods with beet pulp in any form in them. It makes tear staining worse. As a matter of fact I avoid grain inclusive foods altogether. I've embraced the grain-free foods. I think they are all good foods. The price varies quite a bit as does the size of the bag. The only one that gave my SPs the trots was EVO. Probably a combination of too high a protein and fat %.


----------



## palominotwist

*Reply from Purina*

So I had emailed Purina about all the issues my dogs began having, and told them what I thought about their new product. This is the email reply I received this morning: (Please note that they say "The situation you encountered is an unusual occurrence and certainly not typical of our products" YET the email they sent me is totally a pre-written standard email, meaning I'm definitely not the first complaint they've had.)


"Thank you for contacting Nestlé Purina PetCare Company.

We apologize for your recent disappointing experience with our Purina ONE(r) brand Dog Food - SmartBlend(tm). The situation you encountered is an unusual occurrence and certainly not typical of our products. We appreciate you bringing your concerns to our attention. They have been noted and reported to the appropriate individuals in our Company.

Please know that we have recently improved some of our Purina ONE(r) brand Dog Food formulas to our Purina ONE(r) brand Dog Food - SmartBlend(tm). Our improved formulas will now contain a tender meaty morsel in addition to the existing kibble. They have an improved taste compared to our previous formulas. They will also continue to contain real lamb, chicken, or beef as the #1 ingredient.

We are at a loss to explain why your dogs have been experiencing dry skin and coat. While we have made a slight change in the formula, we would not expect this change to cause ill effects in your pets.

We do offer other varieties of Purina ONE(r) brand Dog Foods that do not contain the tender morsel. You might be interested in feeding our Purina ONE(r) brand Dog Food - Sensitive Systems - Adult. This formula will contain real salmon as the first ingredient and is 100% complete and balanced for the maintenance of adult dogs. 

To learn more about our other Purina ONE(r) product offerings, please visit our web site, www.purinaone.com, or speak with us directly by calling 1-866-PURINA1 (1-866-787-4621) weekdays between 7AM to 7PM CST.

If you still have the product packaging, we would appreciate your e-mailing us with the UPC code and the information contained in the "Best If Used By" date box printed on the back or bottom of the packaging. This information will aid our Quality Assurance department in determining where and when the product was manufactured. In addition, the information will be shared with the manufacturing plant.

We are most anxious to restore your confidence in our products. Thus, we would like to mail a complimentary coupon for your use. Also, to help make up for some of your inconvenience, we will be including several high value discount coupons we hope you'll use the next time you purchase Nestlé Purina PetCare Company products. Upon our receipt of the packaging information, please allow 7-10 business days for their arrival.

We look forward to hearing from you."


----------



## DaneMama

Heh. Typical response from a big corporation. Non personal and even promotes their other products...you know what they have on their minds ($$$). You notice that they don't even address your issue other than saying it's unusual for them the receive such a complaint? The audacity astounds me!!! 

Have you made a decision on what food you're switching to?


----------



## palominotwist

danemama08 said:


> Heh. Typical response from a big corporation. Non personal and even promotes their other products...you know what they have on their minds ($$$). You notice that they don't even address your issue other than saying it's unusual for them the receive such a complaint? The audacity astounds me!!!
> 
> Have you made a decision on what food you're switching to?


I'm going to try Diamond Naturals, since it's so similar to 4Health, but a little cheaper. If that doesn't work out, everyone here has given me great suggestions to try.

I just got off the phone with Purina (a conversation which I recorded). I was upset, because yesterday my beagle who normally urinates 2x a day and poops once, urinated 4x yesterday (2 being accidents in the house) and had two soft poops. She's very well housebroken, and gets to go outside on a regular basis. Then this morning, my GSD who hadn't had any other complications besides poor skin/coat quality, vomited large amounts not long after eating this morning, and it wasn't pretty. I am so done with Purina.

The rep said the differences between original PurinaONE and the new Smartblends were “very very minor.” He said, “We removed lamb meal from the product, and we added the new irregular kibble, what’s called the shredded kibble, and then the following ingredients were added to make the kibble: Soy flakes, soybean meal, glycerin, and sulfur.”

The rep was quick tout their ProPlan Selects line when I told him I was switching to a corn/wheat/soy free product. He was all ready to send me a "free sample bag" and coupons, but I told him that all I wanted from him was to refund my money for a bag of dog food I will be throwing out. Surprisingly, he said he can do that, and I should have a check in 7-10 days.

I also let him know that on their OWN website, they have a food & nutrition forum, and most of the threads are COMPLAINTS about Smartblend, including accounts of dogs being hospitalized, getting sick, and a few deaths. I told them that perhaps they wouldn't think these incidents were so "unusual" if they bothered to listen to their customers.

Now I have to go call my girls' vet to see how he feels about me just switching to the new food without tapering due to all these problems. :frown:


----------



## Caty M

So they removed the main source of animal protein.. lamb meal. And I bet they didn't change the price!!


----------



## palominotwist

bishopthesheltie said:


> So they removed the main source of animal protein.. lamb meal. And I bet they didn't change the price!!


Precisely!!

Luckily, my vet said to feed them boiled chicken/beef with white rice, and once they're having good poops and no vomiting, I can start them on the new food.


----------



## cast71

If you switch cold turkey, add canned pumpkin for a while. It will help them not get an upset stomach, while they transition to the new food. Don't buy the one that has sugar in it, it should just contain pumpkin only in it. Good luck:smile:


----------



## RCTRIPLEFRESH5

danemama08 said:


> Heh. Typical response from a big corporation. Non personal and even promotes their other products...you know what they have on their minds ($$$). You notice that they don't even address your issue other than saying it's unusual for them the receive such a complaint? The audacity astounds me!!!
> 
> Have you made a decision on what food you're switching to?


unrelated but i posted a thread on here about me asking canidae if their foods will be totally ethox free...and the reply i got was fishy so i sent them a reply TWO TIMES..and they ignored..it and the third time i said if u ont reply back im switching and they didnt reply back...although im happy with hte food


----------



## palominotwist

RCTRIPLEFRESH5 said:


> unrelated but i posted a thread on here about me asking canidae if their foods will be totally ethox free...and the reply i got was fishy so i sent them a reply TWO TIMES..and they ignored..it and the third time i said if u ont reply back im switching and they didnt reply back...although im happy with hte food


I'd call them. I've always had better results directly calling a company.

Canidae's info: From 8:00 am to 4:30 pm (PST) Monday through Friday you may call 800-398-1600 or 909-599-5190.


----------



## braxtonandsasha

Canidae is not made by Diamond, it is made by the Canidae Corp in their private facility. It is a great food but the price has continued to increase. I switch my mastiff to diamond naturals chicken and rice formula. This is a solid food. There are better foods that are twice the price but not twice as good (nutro holistic, bil-jac and others) Unless you GSD has an allergy than you should look at chicken based foods. Like in humands red meat is tough on the digestive track. Taste of the wild is a good food made by diamond and chicken soup aswell. Diamond natural has two meats in the top 5 and one is in meal form. It will not hurt you dog at all. Also whole rice is not a filler. It is a highly digestable grain. Much better than soy, wheat, and corn 



bishopthesheltie said:


> Kirkland is a mid ranged food, and canidae is alright as well.. both are made by diamond. Pro pac has corn.. which I would avoid.. because of coat issues and allergies.
> 
> I think for the price Taste of the Wild is a great grain free food for a decent price. Don't just look at the price, look at the ingredients as well.. you will be feeding less of the TotW because there is no fillers like rice. Your dog's poops will be smaller as well. I think it would be no more expensive to feed than Purina One, and probably cheaper.
> 
> Acana and Orijen are great foods with many benefits to the dog, but they ARE on the pricier side. Check out Taste of the Wild. It's part of the rotation my dog's breeder was on.. and she feeds working herding dogs.


----------



## cast71

braxtonandsasha said:


> Canidae is not made by Diamond, it is made by the Canidae Corp in their private facility. It is a great food but the price has continued to increase. I switch my mastiff to diamond naturals chicken and rice formula. This is a solid food. There are better foods that are twice the price but not twice as good (nutro holistic, bil-jac and others) Unless you GSD has an allergy than you should look at chicken based foods. Like in humands red meat is tough on the digestive track. Taste of the wild is a good food made by diamond and chicken soup aswell. Diamond natural has two meats in the top 5 and one is in meal form. It will not hurt you dog at all. Also whole rice is not a filler. It is a highly digestable grain. Much better than soy, wheat, and corn


Canidae is made by diamond for canidae. What that means is, it's made in a diamond plant, under canidaes specification.

Diamond natural is a descent food. Nutro holistic and bil-jac not so much

Rice is not highyly digestable for dogs. It is a filler. Meat is highly digestable for dogs:smile: Anything else is a filler.


----------



## monkeys23

Usually just an all life stages, grain free food.

I have a GSD/Sibe mix and a Tervuran/GSD/Sibe foster. I fed Evo until Natura was acquired by P&G, then the three Acana grain free varieties (my foster is still on this), and right now my girl is eating The Honest Kitchen Force. I'm planning on finding some cheap chicken and starting the change to prey model raw this next week. Just didn't have time this last week. :smile:

I've seen a huge amount of benefit from feeding grain free kibble. Especially for dogs like GSD's that are very prone to skin/digestive upset from grains. And the reduction in shedding alone is worth the money. :wink:

Acana has been miraculous for my friend's Rhodesian Ridgeback/Lab mix. He has a thyroid condition and grain allergies. He finally lost all the excess weight and his skin has pinked back up (he gets excess pigmentation from his hypothyroidism) and she got to lower his meds.

TOTW would be a great economical grain free choice for you. Especially since it sounds like you are okay with feeding Diamond products.

It'd probably be even cheaper to go prey model raw.... Just saying. :biggrin:


----------



## GermanSheperdlover

Rice is not highyly digestable for dogs. It is a filler. WRONG!!! and actually brown rice and oatmeal are excellent for dogs. Sure meat should be the majority of any dogs diet but B.R and O.M are fine for dogs. Now I would agree millet, rice bran, brewers rice, barley and the other grains are just fillers, but so is half the stuff YOU EAT! Just like your ice cream, cookies, cakes, pies, donuts(are u a cop) and so on, lol just kidin there.


----------



## cast71

GermanSheperdlover said:


> Rice is not highyly digestable for dogs. It is a filler. WRONG!!! and actually brown rice and oatmeal are excellent for dogs. Sure meat should be the majority of any dogs diet but B.R and O.M are fine for dogs. Now I would agree millet, rice bran, brewers rice, barley and the other grains are just fillers, but so is half the stuff YOU EAT! Just like your ice cream, cookies, cakes, pies, donuts(are u a cop) and so on, lol just kidin there.


As the dude would say "Well that's like your opinion man" ahahahahahaha

Wanted to add simply that dogs are carnivores. Any other ingredient than meat in there diet is a filler, thats sole purpose is to reduce the cost of feeding. People are omnivores and we have a hard time digesting grains like brown rice and oatmeal. Grain are not part of a natural diet for omnivores or carnivores;0)


----------



## GermanSheperdlover

*It is not an opinion it is a fact !!!!*

The Dog Food Project - Identifying better products


----------



## cast71

GermanSheperdlover said:


> *It is not an opinion it is a fact !!!!*
> 
> The Dog Food Project - Identifying better products


I guess my dog didn't get the fact than. He does horribly on all grains, even brown rice and oatmeal. Horrible coat and huge sloppy craps. Take away the grains and he does great. When I read scientific data, facts and all the web facts on the internet, I try to keep an open mind. Same goes with the news. I do not believe everything I read. I believe what I actually see working. When my dog was on raw for 2 years, I saw awesome results. Coat was silk, he had actors teeth, no eye boogers or nasty ears, and almost no poops that disintegrate in a few days. I still feed raw a few days. I'm feeding mostly kibble for personal reasons. If you don't believe me, try out a PMR diet for 3 months and see for yourself.


----------



## GermanSheperdlover

Carbohydrates may originate from grains (rice, wheat, barley, oats, corn etc.) or alternative sources like potatoes, sweet potatoes, tapioca or peas. The claim that all carbohydrates in commercial dog food are nothing but fillers and can not be digested by dogs is incorrect - properly cooked (as in extruded and baked dry foods as well as canned foods) they are highly digestible and valuable sources of energy


To be honest I don't worry about it because I feed Orijen(the best) & TOTW (because he loves it) and supplement my dogs diet with meat every night. But I do get tired of seeing so many false statements and this forum is full of them. Without links or proof, it is nothing more than a opinion, that's why I leave links PROVING my statements and yes I am very involved in dog food. I can not say what I do but you can guess. *Dog food project* is THE BEST dog food site on the internet and is great reading for those who want to educate themselves in the knowledge about dog food


----------



## cast71

GermanSheperdlover said:


> Carbohydrates may originate from grains (rice, wheat, barley, oats, corn etc.) or alternative sources like potatoes, sweet potatoes, tapioca or peas. The claim that all carbohydrates in commercial dog food are nothing but fillers and can not be digested by dogs is incorrect - properly cooked (as in extruded and baked dry foods as well as canned foods) they are highly digestible and valuable sources of energy


Carbohydrates can be digested, but it is hard on a dogs digestive system that is made to digest meat. People have a more complex digestive system and grains are hard on there system as well. Dogs might have been domesticated, but they are still built to primarily digest raw meat. Even cooking meat, makes it harder on there digestive system. According to the way my dog digest grains, I say there fillers. I also think potatoes, sweet potatoes, tapioca and peas are fillers. The only reason I chose grain free diets are because of the low carbs. If it was chicken and rice with 36% protein 20% fat and 36% carbs I would feed that as well. I'd rather have even lower carbs or no carbs at all. I'm really not sure if a raw diet contains carbs, but if it does its low. So grains, vegetables fruits and everything else other than meat are useless for my dog. I do the same as you supplementing meat with his kibble. Sometimes its a piece of cooked leftover meat and other times it's a piece of raw meat. Today he had a juicy piece of raw london broil:wink:


----------



## cast71

GermanSheperdlover said:


> But I do get tired of seeing so many false statements and this forum is full of them. Without links or proof, it is nothing more than a opinion, that's why I leave links PROVING my statements and yes I am very involved in dog food. I can not say what I do but you can guess. *Dog food project* is THE BEST dog food site on the internet and is great reading for those who want to educate themselves in the knowledge about dog food


I'm not try to pick a fight, but I think otherwise. Just because there isn't science backing up these ideas, doesn't make them false. Also I never push my ideas on anyone. I'll recommend ideas and people can do whatever they like with them. My only involvement in dog food is, I use it to feed my dog. To be honest with you, I do not trust any dog food company. Not even champion. I think it would be a good experience, for you to see these benefits for yourself. Why not try raw for a couple of months. Think of it as switching dog food companies.


----------



## coolstorybro

cast71 said:


> I'm not try to pick a fight, but I think otherwise. Just because there isn't science backing up these ideas, doesn't make them false. Also I never push my ideas on anyone. I'll recommend ideas and people can do whatever they like with them. My only involvement in dog food is, I use it to feed my dog. To be honest with you, I do not trust any dog food company. Not even champion. I think it would be a good experience, for you to see these benefits for yourself. Why not try raw for a couple of months. Think of it as switching dog food companies.


right on cast, u can't trust anyone. the only way you know for sure what you are feeding your dog is when you feed raw.


----------



## cast71

Thanks coolstorybro, that's exactly how I feel. I also think that 99.9% of the posts on this site are true. I do not need scientific data to see what works. The funny thing is I'm applying what I learned on dog nutrition to modify my diet. Now I understand why dogs do well, with no or extremely low carb diets. People do as well. Majority of my diet is meat and green vegetables. No or very little grain. Than a little colored veggies and fruit and your good to go. By the way, colored veggies and fruits are where most of the carbs come from. I'm detoxing like the raw dogs:biggrin: And I've said it in the past and I will say it in the future. This site rocks


----------



## pitbullmommy

well i dont know much about dog, but I know that I have always tried to feed my dogs the best that I could afford. I used to feed this brand from wal-mart that was right there with purina one brand (which I consider to be top of the line for store bought food), but they stopped carrying it. I feed Eukanuba (which I thought was top-shelf mid grade dog food). When I got my pitbulls I started feeding diamond dog food, but there coats were getting really rough and their skin really dried out, so recently I switched to 4 health which is to be comparable to Blue buffalo, taste of the wild, and avoderm. It has no ground corn, no bi products. It has not even been a week yet and my dogs skin and coat looks a million times better. I dont know if this food is made by diamond or what but I really like it and it is top end dog food. much better than diamond food.


----------



## cast71

If you were feeding regular diamond foods, than you would see a huge improvement going to 4health. Regular diamond is not a good food. Diamond natural is a descent food. It's literally pretty much the same as 4health and costco's kirkland. It's made by diamond and has almost the exact ingredients if not exact. TOTW is a better food because it contains more animal product and less carbohydrates. Regular blue buffalo is comparable to 4health and blue buffalo wilderness is comparable to TOTW. Purina one and Eukanuba are not good foods. Glad to hear 4health is working out;0)


----------

