# Another dog on ZD



## revc (Mar 27, 2014)

Hey guys. 

One of our dogs has a case of the "bad guts"- we adopted him as a puppy and soon found ourselves battling his nasty case of giardia for over a year. Since then (he's 3 now) he's never been in a good place, really. We've tried high quality kibble (Orijen, Acana) canned diets (Addiction) and raw (Primal, Sojos supplemented with ground beef/chicken parts and raw bones), freeze-dried things (Honest Kitchen) and every time it's the same old thing. He gets excited to be eating the new food, then a month or two goes by and he's no longer interested- picks at it, abandons it, loses weight at a disturbing rate. We've run out of foods to try, and have had trouble pinpointing what the problematic proteins could be. He's done this with all sorts of fish, chicken, beef, and lamb, and things like adding probiotics don't seem to really make a difference.

We've moved recently, and the stress of it plus it being "that time" for him caused him to drop weight VERY rapidly, and the vet has put him on ZD. I absolutely hate Science Diet as it feels like we're just feeding him the equivalent of Twinkies to fatten him up, but he IS gaining weight and doing quite well. Still, I'd like to feed him something that actually has some sort of nutritional content.

Any advice is appreciated.


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## Georgiapeach (Jan 24, 2011)

Grain free and raw diets are good for keeping a dog lean, so that may be your problem. I've never had a dog who did well on the super premium foods; the high protein upset their tummies. Have you tried a grain inclusive kibble (non-prescription)? Sometimes, you have to ignore what everyone else says is a good kibble, and feed what works for your dog. I used to have a boxer who only did well on Taste of the Wild Pacific Stream, which many on this site trash b/c it's a Diamond product. I fed it b/c it worked for him.


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## Dr Dolittle (Aug 2, 2013)

revc said:


> Hey guys.
> 
> One of our dogs has a case of the "bad guts"- we adopted him as a puppy and soon found ourselves battling his nasty case of giardia for over a year. Since then (he's 3 now) he's never been in a good place, really. We've tried high quality kibble (Orijen, Acana) canned diets (Addiction) and raw (Primal, Sojos supplemented with ground beef/chicken parts and raw bones), freeze-dried things (Honest Kitchen) and every time it's the same old thing. He gets excited to be eating the new food, then a month or two goes by and he's no longer interested- picks at it, abandons it, loses weight at a disturbing rate. We've run out of foods to try, and have had trouble pinpointing what the problematic proteins could be. He's done this with all sorts of fish, chicken, beef, and lamb, and things like adding probiotics don't seem to really make a difference.
> 
> ...


As someone who loves twinkles and knows the vet diets very well! I can safely say you are feeding an excellent diet. As Georgia Peach said, sometimes you have to stop listening to the popular myth makers and go with what works. I just had lunch yesterday with 3 veterinarians and were talking about derm specialists and their latests rants. I confess I do not respect derm specialists at all? Canine z/d is a very popular derm diet for GI and skin because it has absolutely no intact protein molecules to be an allergen for your dog. Not even intact protein from a carb! it is an excellent diagnostic tool to determine and confirm food is the issue? Kudos to your vet for suggesting it! The diet is providing all the nutrients your dog needs, which is why you are seeing the results you are. I know the ingredient panel is freaking you out but it is designed to perform not to include the latest foo foo ingredients, as Shamrockmommy calls them. Hydrolyzed protein is simply broken down so small that your dog' sim mine system can't react to the protein as an allergen. It's the same thing as baby formula. Once your guy is ideal weight and doing great, you can try introducing another food very slowly and see what happens, but you have nothing to rear or feel guilty about. most dogs on z/d end up being on it for life because it simply works so well. the problem with finding a novel ingredient diet is that your dog's immune system may very well start reacting to it over time. that is one reason I don't like high protein for hypersensitive dogs? the theory is that the more of that protein they get over time the faster they will start reacting. But again, just a theory. if you like treating your dog, the vet can get Hydrolyzed treats too so you can still give her some fun too. Sounds more like a food intolerance to me than a true food allergy but always hard to tell and the symptoms and solution are usually the same. And I saw on their website they have $7 coupons on their Prescription diet foods. Hope that helps a little. God Bless!


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## BrownieM (Aug 30, 2010)

Dr Dolittle said:


> As someone who loves twinkles and knows the vet diets very well! I can safely say you are feeding an excellent diet. As Georgia Peach said, sometimes you have to stop listening to the popular myth makers and go with what works. I just had lunch yesterday with 3 veterinarians and were talking about derm specialists and their latests rants. I confess I do not respect derm specialists at all? Canine z/d is a very popular derm diet for GI and skin because it has absolutely no intact protein molecules to be an allergen for your dog. Not even intact protein from a carb! it is an excellent diagnostic tool to determine and confirm food is the issue? Kudos to your vet for suggesting it! The diet is providing all the nutrients your dog needs, which is why you are seeing the results you are. I know the ingredient panel is freaking you out but it is designed to perform not to include the latest foo foo ingredients, as Shamrockmommy calls them. Hydrolyzed protein is simply broken down so small that your dog' sim mine system can't react to the protein as an allergen. It's the same thing as baby formula. Once your guy is ideal weight and doing great, you can try introducing another food very slowly and see what happens, but you have nothing to rear or feel guilty about. most dogs on z/d end up being on it for life because it simply works so well. the problem with finding a novel ingredient diet is that your dog's immune system may very well start reacting to it over time. that is one reason I don't like high protein for hypersensitive dogs? the theory is that the more of that protein they get over time the faster they will start reacting. But again, just a theory. if you like treating your dog, the vet can get Hydrolyzed treats too so you can still give her some fun too. Sounds more like a food intolerance to me than a true food allergy but always hard to tell and the symptoms and solution are usually the same. And I saw on their website they have $7 coupons on their Prescription diet foods. Hope that helps a little. God Bless!


Just out of curiousity, I looked at the ingredients of ZD. I looked at the dry and the canned. The canned contains Corn Starch and Soybean Oil. Would those not affect a dog allergic to corn and/or soy?


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## Shamrockmommy (Sep 10, 2009)

I'm allergic to corn, and yes, I react to corn starch, so I imagine a dog with a true corn allergy would probably react to it.

Don't feel bad about feeding z/d if your dog is doing well on it. Do you feed a "better" food because people on the internet say it is so and then watch your dog fall apart again, or do you keep feeding z/d and give him comfort and health since it's working? 

Once in a while I feel a little bit sorry for myself and eat something corny. (There is corn in everything, it's exhausting! laundry soap, hand soap, dish soap, deodorant, fragrance, toilet paper, paper towels, feminine products, herbs/spices/table salt, vitamins, medicine, shampoo, lotion, hair spray, it's on fruits and veggies that are waxed, any prepared veggies have been rinsed with citric acid derived from corn, beef/pork/certain brands of chicken carcasses are sprayed with corn derived lactic or citric acid. The absorbent pads underneath cuts of meat- corn!... there's SO much more! it's in milk, juices, soft drinks, and on and on... popcorn, movie theaters are off limits, people wearing perfumes, I generally find myself wheezing by the time I'm done in a grocery or TARGET with their popcorn machine...). So I Feel sorry for myself and eat the corny thing and then I get a bad headache, swollen, bleeding gums and lips, spend all night scratching myself silly and get cystic acne on my face as part of the reaction. I won't even tell you what it does to my GI tract, though I'm sure you can guess! It takes 4 days to work itself out of my system, and by then my face is flushed with dry, peeling skin and I'm SO tired because I can't sleep from the itching 

Allergies are miserable, and if he's feeling good on this, snub your nose to anyone who says Rx food is "garbage" and enjoy your dog's good health. 

HTH!


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## Dr Dolittle (Aug 2, 2013)

BrownieM said:


> Just out of curiousity, I looked at the ingredients of ZD. I looked at the dry and the canned. The canned contains Corn Starch and Soybean Oil. Would those not affect a dog allergic to corn and/or soy?


Good question! I know hills used to make a less expensive ZD Low Allergen that contained potato and it was positioned as the same Hydrolyzed protein but the potato did have intact protein so it had to be called low Allergen because though rare, there are some dogs allergic to potato. Royal canin makes a Hydrolyzed diet but contains rice, which has intact protein. The ZD's corn starch and soy oil must have a smaller molecular weight? Don't know but it sure seems to work! I would say the rarity of a corn or soy allergy will only get people mad here but it is true. Most general practitioners have switched to Hydrolyzed diets because how well they work, though derm specialist living in their little academic bubble still prefer novel ingredient diets. as diets and mess improve, one day they will be out of a job!


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## BrownieM (Aug 30, 2010)

Dr Dolittle said:


> Good question! I know hills used to make a less expensive ZD Low Allergen that contained potato and it was positioned as the same Hydrolyzed protein but the potato did have intact protein so it had to be called low Allergen because though rare, there are some dogs allergic to potato. Royal canin makes a Hydrolyzed diet but contains rice, which has intact protein. The ZD's corn starch and soy oil must have a smaller molecular weight? Don't know but it sure seems to work! I would say the rarity of a corn or soy allergy will only get people mad here but it is true. Most general practitioners have switched to Hydrolyzed diets because how well they work, though derm specialist living in their little academic bubble still prefer novel ingredient diets. as diets and mess improve, one day they will be out of a job!


I don't doubt that it is rare - especially a true allergy. That said, I do have a dog that I have done the NutriScan test on that is "highly reactive" (food intolerance not true allergy) to corn. I haven't needed to go as far as to feed a hydrolyzed diet because its easy enough to avoid corn...That said, it just got me thinking and I was sort of surprised, I would say, to see it in the hydrolized diet.


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## Dr Dolittle (Aug 2, 2013)

BrownieM said:


> I don't doubt that it is rare - especially a true allergy. That said, I do have a dog that I have done the NutriScan test on that is "highly reactive" (food intolerance not true allergy) to corn. I haven't needed to go as far as to feed a hydrolyzed diet because its easy enough to avoid corn...That said, it just got me thinking and I was sort of surprised, I would say, to see it in the hydrolized diet.


I know sometimes those tests can give false positives but if you're managing with a non corn food that's cool. I know grains fall into the same families as they call it and so times causes those false positives. The most ironic thing about corn and the myth of allergies and non digestibility is when a person looks at the top GI diets used in vet clinics, no matter the brand, and find corn! LOL! And these diets work incredibly well! it should make us wonder who actually started these myths?........follow the money! I do know there are problems lately with companies making novel ingredient diets over the counter but their sources are not pure, containing other protein sources, and they don't shut down and clean the facilities before and after processing like the vet diets do. can be one of the frustrating things to deal with so you made out good!


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## BrownieM (Aug 30, 2010)

Dr Dolittle said:


> I know sometimes those tests can give false positives but if you're managing with a non corn food that's cool. I know grains fall into the same families as they call it and so times causes those false positives. The most ironic thing about corn and the myth of allergies and non digestibility is when a person looks at the top GI diets used in vet clinics, no matter the brand, and find corn! LOL! And these diets work incredibly well! it should make us wonder who actually started these myths?........follow the money! I do know there are problems lately with companies making novel ingredient diets over the counter but their sources are not pure, containing other protein sources, and they don't shut down and clean the facilities before and after processing like the vet diets do. can be one of the frustrating things to deal with so you made out good!


As I understand it, with something like a sensitivity/intolerance, it is a much less immediate or severe reaction than a true allergy and so the amount of exposure matters. I am not sure that low levels from cross contamination would be large enough to really cause an effect in the same way that actually ingesting significant amounts of a protein that a dog is intolerant to. But I would imagine that with a true allergy this cross contamination really could be an issue, much like it is with people.

From what I understand of the NutriScan test, which is a saliva test that looks for IgA and IgM, is that false positives are not common and that any reaction shown on the results shows that there has been a reaction within the body, even if the dog isn't yet symptomatic. I think that the blood tests are much less accurate and they are testing for true allergies and not sensitivities/intolerance. I know that for the dog the results of the NutriScan test were dead on and all loose stool issues cleared up as soon as I tailored the diet to avoid the reactive proteins.


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## Dr Dolittle (Aug 2, 2013)

BrownieM said:


> As I understand it, with something like a sensitivity/intolerance, it is a much less immediate or severe reaction than a true allergy and so the amount of exposure matters. I am not sure that low levels from cross contamination would be large enough to really cause an effect in the same way that actually ingesting significant amounts of a protein that a dog is intolerant to. But I would imagine that with a true allergy this cross contamination really could be an issue, much like it is with people.
> 
> From what I understand of the NutriScan test, which is a saliva test that looks for IgA and IgM, is that false positives are not common and that any reaction shown on the results shows that there has been a reaction within the body, even if the dog isn't yet symptomatic. I think that the blood tests are much less accurate and they are testing for true allergies and not sensitivities/intolerance. I know that for the dog the results of the NutriScan test were dead on and all loose stool issues cleared up as soon as I tailored the diet to avoid the reactive proteins.


Yeah, makes sense!


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## Shamrockmommy (Sep 10, 2009)

BrownieM said:


> . But I would imagine that with a true allergy this cross contamination really could be an issue, much like it is with people.


Hooboy! Bob's Red Mill is one of the worst companies for cross contamination with corn. I react to all their products, flaxseed, almond meal, everything. 

Not to single out a company because there are others, but this one I have a big cross contamination issue with. 

Also, ALL dog food is corny. the vitamin/mineral mix is corny. Grain free/corn free, etc. All corny. <shrugs>


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## Dr Dolittle (Aug 2, 2013)

Shamrockmommy said:


> Hooboy! Bob's Red Mill is one of the worst companies for cross contamination with corn. I react to all their products, flaxseed, almond meal, everything.
> 
> Not to single out a company because there are others, but this one I have a big cross contamination issue with.
> 
> Also, ALL dog food is corny. the vitamin/mineral mix is corny. Grain free/corn free, etc. All corny. <shrugs>


LOL! We can all just rub our favorite kibble on Shamrockmommy to test for corn! LOL!


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## flashyfawn (Mar 8, 2012)

I have a 12 year old dog who has been on Hills w/d for nearly a year now. When we put her on the w/d, she was failing and doing so poorly that I would have literally fed her rabbit food if that had gotten her back to good health. I did not care what food she needed, nothing else had worked, but the w/d did. Once she stabilized, I did briefly look for an alternative because I thought the w/d wasn't good enough and I always said I would never feed anything Hills. But then I looked at my dog, and looked at how good she felt and how her issues were suddenly all under control, and switching just did not make sense at all. The z/d is a prescription, look at it as a medication that your dog needs right now to return to good health. The ingredient list may not be popular but there is a ton of research that goes into these diets, and I do believe they can make a huge difference for dogs who have specific health problems. As time goes on and your dog continues to do well, the z/d might not seem as bad as you think.


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## Celt (Dec 27, 2010)

Umm, I guess I'm missing something, but the original post doesn't seem to be about a food not working as a dog who got "bored" of a food and is a "hard keeper". If the pup eats a food eagerly for a couple of months then just kind of "stops" eating it (with no health "issues") then I would just change up the foods to prevent "boredom". If your dog has a hard time keeping weight on then high calorie foods are generally best. Carb "heavy" foods are usually best for putting weight on, although some dogs do better on high protein foods. My "middle" pup does better on "meat based" foods and will drop weight if you look crossed eyed at him. My oldest gains weight quickly on "carb based" foods but will lose the weight easily.
That being said, I strongly believe that if a food works for your dog then it's the "best/good" food to buy. Don't worry about what is "supposed" to make a "good" food, just keep track of how your dog is doing on a food.


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