# Does my dog look emaciated?



## woganvonderweidenstrasse (Nov 22, 2012)

Help please!! 
My breeder emailed yesterday to say that she had a good look at the pictures I sent her of Logan and she feels I have to improve on his condition. She says he looks emaciated and tired, has no muscle on his hind legs and that his vertebrae is protruding on his back. Of course the raw diet is now getting the blame....
I'm attaching a few pics; please tell me if you guys agree with her? I don't want my dog to look emaciated!!! Until recently he's been getting 1.3kg - 1.4kg (that is 2.8 - 3 pounds) of food per day. I've now increased it to 2kg (4.4 pounds), that is more than 4% of his estimated adult body weight (45kg/99 pounds) - however I'm now starting to think he may end up weighing more than that judging by all the food he's consuming. Anyway, here are the pics: Oh, he's 10 months old at the moment and weighs 35.8kg (78.9 pounds) He's brothers weigh 36 and 37kg's, and is finer boned than him. They are getting 650gm(1.4 pounds) dry kibble/day.


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## woganvonderweidenstrasse (Nov 22, 2012)

Here are 2 more and one from the top


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## BearMurphy (Feb 29, 2012)

i'm no expert but he does not look emaciated. he looks like a puppy to me but I haven't put my hands on him


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## whiteleo (Sep 7, 2008)

He's growing as he should be, he looks perfect. What meats are you feeding though. Any kind of heart? Breeders who feed kibble are just so used to seeing dogs at ten months look more like an adult. I wouldn't worry, you are doing things right.


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## Sprocket (Oct 4, 2011)

I'll be the odd man (woman) out. Taking into consideration the GSD coat, yes..I would prefer more weight on him.


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## GoingPostal (Sep 5, 2011)

He looks fine to me but hard to tell without putting hands on him, are his hipbones protruding at all? How easily are his ribs felt? That 1st pic he looks lean but I think it's just the pic, he looks good in the rest and from the top. I wouldn't want to put extra weight on a young dog like that.


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## SpinRetrievers (Jun 1, 2013)

His body mass doesn't look good, I don't mean weight, just lack of muscle tone. His coat looks dull as well, the black should be like a seal. 

I would tend to agree with the breeder. The middle picture in your second post shows best what he or she is saying.

The breeder would best know what a pup from his/her breeding program should look like at that age, so listen to the breeder.

Nothing wrong with feeding fresh meat, but you may wanna use a good dry as a base.

If you had just shown the picture without any background, I would have guessed worms. Just has that wormy look.


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## Savage Destiny (Mar 16, 2011)

I don't think he's emaciated, per se. I like skinny dogs. But the lack of muscle tone is a little worrying to me, as well as the dull coat. Of course, you could be talking to the breeder about him being cow hocked, as that could be part of the reason he doesn't have good muscle mass in the rear. Doesn't explain lack of tone in his front end though. 

Has he had blood work done recently?


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## Liz (Sep 27, 2010)

He look to be in good weight but needs more muscle tone. Most breeders don't understand that a raw fed dog will mature more slowly and look puppyish for longer. We just showed my collie and they assumed he was about 6 months younger than he is even though he has reached his mature height he still has a lot of filling in to do. I make sure to feed my growing dogs a lot of red meat, much more than poultry though we use turkey and chicken mostly for bone content although they all love pork neck also. We feed tons of beef heart and turkey heart. Swimming, fetch, playing up and down hill will help improve his muscle tone. He has substantial bone. For a picture you are sending to the breeder try baiting him so he lifts his head and she can better see the lines of his neck and over all structure. 

Liz

He doesn't look wormy - you may need to get more undercoat out as he will keep shedding and growing a more mature coat.


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## SpinRetrievers (Jun 1, 2013)

Liz said:


> He look to be in good weight but needs more muscle tone. Most breeders don't understand that a raw fed dog will mature more slowly and look puppyish for longer. We just showed my collie and they assumed he was about 6 months younger than he is even though he has reached his mature height he still has a lot of filling in to do. I make sure to feed my growing dogs a lot of red meat, much more than poultry though we use turkey and chicken mostly for bone content although they all love pork neck also. We feed tons of beef heart and turkey heart. Swimming, fetch, playing up and down hill will help improve his muscle tone. He has substantial bone. For a picture you are sending to the breeder try baiting him so he lifts his head and she can better see the lines of his neck and over all structure.
> 
> Liz
> 
> He doesn't look wormy - you may need to get more undercoat out as he will keep shedding and growing a more mature coat.


Raw fed dogs take longer to mature? According to? I believe that opinion goes around to rationalize the fact that many raw fed dogs are not being fed correctly and their condition shows.

I can think of no scientific reason why this would be true. It is just a nice way to say undernourished.

If there is a peer reviewed study on this I would love to read it.


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## Herzo (Feb 5, 2011)

SpinRetrievers said:


> Raw fed dogs take longer to mature? According to? I believe that opinion goes around to rationalize the fact that many raw fed dogs are not being fed correctly and their condition shows.
> 
> I can think of no scientific reason why this would be true. It is just a nice way to say undernourished.
> 
> If there is a peer reviewed study on this I would love to read it.


MD I wish you would quit trying to get Liz to fight with you. If I had time I would go back and see just how many times you have tried to attack her. I just don't know why you can't get on with your life without starting fights all the time. You well know she has experience with raising pups on raw and if her dogs were not getting good nutrition then I guess she would be losing pups and they would not be growing up right.

Her dogs sure look to me like they are getting what they need to. Your first post was well meant looking but then when Liz comes on you go haywire. You say the breeder knows what her pups should look like, well that is probably right just as Liz knows that her pups on raw grow slower than other collies. She sees allot of them on kibble as well. I'm guessing that's enough science to know the difference.

Good Lord I'm am getting sick of this :boink: all the time.


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## SpinRetrievers (Jun 1, 2013)

Herzo said:


> MD I wish you would quit trying to get Liz to fight with you. If I had time I would go back and see just how many times you have tried to attack her. I just don't know why you can't get on with your life without starting fights all the time. You well know she has experience with raising pups on raw and if her dogs were not getting good nutrition then I guess she would be losing pups and they would not be growing up right.
> 
> Her dogs sure look to me like they are getting what they need to. Your first post was well meant looking but then when Liz comes on you go haywire. You say the breeder knows what her pups should look like, well that is probably right just as Liz knows that her pups on raw grow slower than other collies. She sees allot of them on kibble as well. I'm guessing that's enough science to know the difference.
> 
> Good Lord I'm am getting sick of this :boink: all the time.


Too bad, all I asked for was evidence. Why is a certain group of people permitted to make statements like this without any support. I have asked this question to two phd board certified clinical nutritionists in the past and they could hardly contain their laughter. It is total rubbish.

There is a lot of risk in what Liz said. Don't you see it? She has no idea what type of nutrition this dog is getting and for her to willy-nilly dismiss the possibility that the dog's diet is deficient by saying that raw fed dogs mature slower is reckless. 

She is by no means an expert, despite what you may think. The dogs breeder has more credibility than she does and the breeder knows his or her pups best. The statement by Liz that "breeders don't understand" is just pure reckless, childish arrogance.


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## lauren43 (Feb 6, 2011)

I think for a 10 month old dog he looks fine. I personally hate seeing "full" puppies at this age, too much weight while they are going can not be good for their joints. 

That being said, I do see the lack of muscle tone on his back legs.


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## Herzo (Feb 5, 2011)

SpinRetrievers said:


> Too bad, all I asked for was evidence. Why is a certain group of people permitted to make statements like this without any support. I have asked this question to two phd board certified clinical nutritionists in the past and they could hardly contain their laughter. It is total rubbish.
> 
> There is a lot of risk in what Liz said. Don't you see it? She has no idea what type of nutrition this dog is getting and for her to willy-nilly dismiss the possibility that the dog's diet is deficient by saying that raw fed dogs mature slower is reckless.
> 
> She is by no means an expert, despite what you may think. The dogs breeder has more credibility than she does and the breeder knows his or her pups best. The statement by Liz that "breeders don't understand" is just pure reckless, childish arrogance.


While I will agree that she may not be an expert on a GSD I do think she is on Collies and Shelties and yes I do think she would know if hers grow slower than kibble fed ones. I will give you that you are right and she doesn't know what this dog is being fed and I am not going to say maybe this dog doesn't need something else but it doesn't look like it is on deaths door to me.

But she is not the only one that has raised many pups on raw and most of them say the same thing. Jon and Natalie have raised at least 3 Great Danes on raw and they say the same thing so that is why I do believe in what she is saying.

I also know that if you are feeding lambs if you supplement them with grain they will grow faster than ones that are on just grass. So I guess that is why it makes perfect sense to me. That is why they put cattle and sheep in feed lots so they can grow them up faster.

I'm not sure what to tell you about the two phd board certified clinical nutritionists, it seems strange to me that they would laugh at something that we all know has not been studied. I know your big on science and I'm not saying your wrong but we all know that there are no studies of raw so there are no studies of whether a raw fed pup grows slower. So your people are laughing at something they know nothing about. Sounds like maybe they are making a judgement with out any knowledge on something to me.

I do understand your thinking and that maybe this dog does indeed need something more but I don't look at what Liz said as reckless I just don't, sorry.


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## Liz (Sep 27, 2010)

Herzo - Responding to someone who doesn't feed raw about raw issues is a waste of time and you are right that picking fights is useless. I do thank you for your kind words and I am sorry threads keep getting derailed by this nonsense. As for proof if the OP wants to talk about needing proof I will glad share what I have found with her but have no need to share information with Spin Retrievers or anyone else who does not even bother to feed raw. As for not know how the dog is fed, well Spin Retrievers is assuming there have been no Private Messages and information has never been exchanged. Assumptions never pan out real well. 


It must be really slow in the kibble section if kibble feeders have to come to the raw sections to give their two cents. 

Liz


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## lauren43 (Feb 6, 2011)

Spinretrievers has been banned. So don't hold your breath for a response. I had a feeling he was a returner but with different IP addresses had to wait until I was sure. A forever ban is a forever ban.


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## lauren43 (Feb 6, 2011)

And one more thing. The OP thought she found a great breeder but I think over time she has discovered the breeder wasn't quite as amazing as she initially thought? OP correct me if I am wrong..


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## Liz (Sep 27, 2010)

That is nice to hear Lauren. Do you have any other ideas for the OP to get some better muscle tone especially in the rear. Swimming, fetch, walking, have been suggested. I just can't think of anything else offhand. 


Liz


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## lauren43 (Feb 6, 2011)

Flirt pole could help if he would take to it. Also starting some very light weight pulling (something easy as he is young and you don't want to strain his joints)...


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## Herzo (Feb 5, 2011)

Well while I am not sorry that he has been banned once again, I was looking foreword to a response on my lamb feeding opinion. on how grain grows things up faster. Now that I do believe is a fact of science is it not?


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## Herzo (Feb 5, 2011)

Liz said:


> Herzo - Responding to someone who doesn't feed raw about raw issues is a waste of time and you are right that picking fights is useless. I do thank you for your kind words and I am sorry threads keep getting derailed by this nonsense. As for proof if the OP wants to talk about needing proof I will glad share what I have found with her but have no need to share information with Spin Retrievers or anyone else who does not even bother to feed raw. As for not know how the dog is fed, well Spin Retrievers is assuming there have been no Private Messages and information has never been exchanged. Assumptions never pan out real well.
> 
> 
> It must be really slow in the kibble section if kibble feeders have to come to the raw sections to give their two cents.
> ...


Liz I really do know this but it just gets under my skin when he is constantly trying to get you caught in a lie or what ever his beef is with you because you never are mean or try to start a fight. But he is trying so hard to get under your skin it just makes me skip that little thing in my brain that makes me stop and cancel that post. That thing that I have done twice today but not on this one.


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## Liz (Sep 27, 2010)

I totally understand Herzo. I type, and re type before actually posting. It gets so frustrating. I can't figure the problem either because I really don't care what he feeds. Silly to get banned continuously. Well we should be good for a while. Thanks for the back up. 

Your pups in your pictures look really good. Do you do lots of hiking?

Liz


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## Fundog (Oct 25, 2012)

Some insight into the psyche of people like Monster's Dad, Spin Retrievers and other raw opponent activists: They truly do believe it is very dangerous to feed raw, unless you are an absolute expert in it. Now... he does believe Liz is an expert, but he feels it is not adequate to share her expertise over the internet, and not in person, physically and personally guiding the novice raw feeder... Anything less is dangerous. And so he finds her to be an easy target for nit-picking. And that is just the personal opinion of "Dr. Fundog," Phd. Lol.


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## Liz (Sep 27, 2010)

Dr. Fundog - you need to start charging for analysis. LOL Very good insight. 

Liz


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

SpinRetrievers said:


> Too bad, all I asked for was evidence. Why is a certain group of people permitted to make statements like this without any support. I have asked this question to two phd board certified clinical nutritionists in the past and they could hardly contain their laughter. It is total rubbish.
> 
> There is a lot of risk in what Liz said. Don't you see it? She has no idea what type of nutrition this dog is getting and for her to willy-nilly dismiss the possibility that the dog's diet is deficient by saying that raw fed dogs mature slower is reckless.
> 
> She is by no means an expert, despite what you may think. The dogs breeder has more credibility than she does and the breeder knows his or her pups best. The statement by Liz that "breeders don't understand" is just pure reckless, childish arrogance.


she is an expert and she knows what the dog is being fed. i have one of liz' dogs and you'd not know the dog is almost 10 months old. his growth is slow and steady. his health is superb. you can tell by my avatar.

i don't know who you are and don't much care, really.....however, since liz has done her research for more than 20 years concerning breeding, vaccines, holistic health, and feeding, i think, if you want to see the peer evidence, you have a computer.

find it yourself. we have no need to prove to you or anyone else what we know. we took the time to study and before you say it, gasp, OFF the internet......so you too have the freedom to look things up before making statements as you are making. 

you do not know her nor do you know what she knows.

that'll teach me to post before i've read the entire thread . oh darn.


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

Liz said:


> Herzo - Responding to someone who doesn't feed raw about raw issues is a waste of time and you are right that picking fights is useless. I do thank you for your kind words and I am sorry threads keep getting derailed by this nonsense. As for proof if the OP wants to talk about needing proof I will glad share what I have found with her but have no need to share information with Spin Retrievers or anyone else who does not even bother to feed raw. As for not know how the dog is fed, well Spin Retrievers is assuming there have been no Private Messages and information has never been exchanged. Assumptions never pan out real well.
> 
> 
> It must be really slow in the kibble section if kibble feeders have to come to the raw sections to give their two cents.
> ...


sometimes, a girl just cannot help it, liz. it's tiresome.


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## Herzo (Feb 5, 2011)

Liz said:


> I totally understand Herzo. I type, and re type before actually posting. It gets so frustrating. I can't figure the problem either because I really don't care what he feeds. Silly to get banned continuously. Well we should be good for a while. Thanks for the back up.
> 
> Your pups in your pictures look really good. Do you do lots of hiking?
> 
> Liz


Thanks I do try. I have not been walking as much lately because I have been putting in garden and now I am helping my dad and uncle dock lambs. When I have time I saddle up and take Richter and Marlo with my horse and I can really run them then. Richter has been a very bad dog a couple of times these last few months so I am trying to get him as much exercise as I can. Maddie doesn't look to bad for an old gal does she.

I am having to take her on shorter walks as her one back leg is not doing good so it is making things hard because she wants to go and the other dogs need more so when I can the horse does help. Although her and Turtle are mad at me when I don't take them with.

Dr. Fundog that is goooooooooooood I think you have something there. He does sometime come across as meaning well but most of the time he is just being a poop.


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## Liz (Sep 27, 2010)

When you're hot you're hot. That was quite a reply - I was glad to be on your side. Thank you for having my back as usual. 

Liz


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## sozzle (May 18, 2011)

Herzo said:


> He does sometime come across as meaning well but most of the time he is just being a poop.


Bloody hell you americans are so polite!!! down here we call them "shit stirrers" and trust me, as one disappears another one takes their place.

(my husband is working with a particularly bad one at the moment and is hoping he will be digging himself into a big wide grave very soon.......but normally these people get away with murder)

Sorry OP to get off track a bit, but I hope you can find a solution to your dilemma and please don't be brow beaten by the breeder. I am not commenting on your dog because I don't really know.
cheers


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## Dude and Bucks Mamma (May 14, 2011)

I'll be another one to agree that dogs grow slower on raw. Buck looked much younger than he was for a long time. With Iorveth, I have had the pleasure of keeping track of two of his litter mates (a brother and a sister) as well as being friends with the owner of a half sibling a few months older than him. Xolos LOOK older as puppies (they often look like miniature adults) but, in comparison to other Xolos and his siblings, Iorveth is smaller. He has better muscle tone than the others and has clearer skin but he is not growing as quickly. I have no doubt that he will be a large dog as he was 46 lbs a couple of weeks ago and just hit 7 months a few days ago but he really is "behind" in growth compared to the others. 

OP, as far as your boy goes I will agree with Emily on this one. He does look like he could use just a few more pounds (not much at all) and better muscle tone in his rear. I have had experience with my two guys needing much more food than I think they should while they're growing. Buck was really thin for a while and he was up to 3 lbs a day. Once he hit 2 years old in March he started getting chunky all of a sudden and we had to cut his food back. Iorveth is easier to keep weight on but he still gets lean if he doesn't get enough red meat. 

I agree with Liz in that red meats, especially heart, are wonderful for growing dogs. That us, ultimately, kept the weight on Buck that he needed during growth.


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## BeagleCountry (Jan 20, 2012)

FWIW, if I connected the dots correctly, from another forum, his wife is a nutritionist (human). Not exactly unbiased opinions. I could be wrong.


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## bridget246 (Oct 26, 2011)

SpinRetrievers said:


> Raw fed dogs take longer to mature? According to? I believe that opinion goes around to rationalize the fact that many raw fed dogs are not being fed correctly and their condition shows.
> 
> I can think of no scientific reason why this would be true. It is just a nice way to say undernourished.
> 
> If there is a peer reviewed study on this I would love to read it.


Breastfed babies typically grow slower than formula fed babies and it doesn't mean they are undernourished. They do catch up to their peers in height, but not weight. I'd hazard a guess and say it might have something to do with the fact that they are being fed a more natural food that their bodies can actually take better advantage of.

I completely skipped page two completely missing the part where he was banned.


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## Fundog (Oct 25, 2012)

bridget246 said:


> Breastfed babies typically grow slower than formula fed babies and it doesn't mean they are undernourished. They do catch up to their peers in height, but not weight. I'd hazard a guess and say it might have something to do with the fact that they are being fed a more natural food that their bodies can actually take better advantage of.
> 
> I completely skipped page two completely missing the part where he was banned.



That's right, Bridget; I had forgotten about that! My now 17 year old "baby" was breastfed, AND I made his baby food at home-- everything the family ate, but pureed in a blender-- he was a slow gainer, at the 25th percentile of the growth charts. Today he is a beanpole, with a 30" waist and 36" length pants! Man, it is hard to find pants for that kid, lol! (And he is ALWAYS hungry, weighing just 130 lbs.)


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## Kassandra (Jun 6, 2012)

If she thinks he is emaciated she is crazy! On the thin side yes, but that's how he should be at this age. Emaciated, now definitely not. He should start filling in soon and he will look just as good (if not better) than his littermates. In the long run he will probably be healthier. 

As for building muscle, get him swimming it really helps. I know it's already been mentioned but it really will be the best thing for him to build muscle! We do it with some of the dogs in our rescue and it helps them a lot. Walking honestly won't do much, it'll be a slow slow process like that and I don't recommend running a GSD at this age, especially since he appears to be cow hocked (correct me if I am wrong, I'm not very familiar with it). Swimming will do it quick with as little strain on the joints as there can be. If you don't have a pool or fenced pond or whatever where he can be off-leash in safety, take him to a pond and put him on a longline, that's what I did with Charlie until she had a reliable recall. I'll probably have to do it with Remi because I don't trust her around other people yet.

Naturally fed babies (of every species) mature slower than if they are pumped full of weird chemicals and fats etc. We all know this there is no need to fight about it lol. Even MD knows it, he is just a poop as Herzo said. 

I promise you all that after I graduate I will be conducting a study on raw fed puppies vs kibble fed pups, if it had not already been done. Just to end this bull crap.


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## Tobi (Mar 18, 2011)

I believe they aren't undernourished and they do indeed grow at at a more natural rate. Look at how fast a human can grow from eating junk food... The body grows but the organs and the skeletal system will still be lacking... It's really not a difficult thing to understand, well maybe for some it is lol


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## bett (Mar 15, 2012)

BeagleCountry said:


> FWIW, if I connected the dots correctly, from another forum, his wife is a nutritionist (human). Not exactly unbiased opinions. I could be wrong.


he told me on another forum, his wife, is a much younger beauty, a former model from another country.


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## lovemydogsalways (Mar 4, 2012)

Hard to believe he keeps coming back with so many different names. It is always easy to see it is the same person.
OP I think your dog looks ok. I wouldn't let him lose any though.


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## bett (Mar 15, 2012)

i think it's funny that he says the dog has a "wormy" look.

and now, so i dont get myself in trouble, i wont say more.

without touching the dog, i think it's hard to tell but i wouldnt call him emaciated.


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## lindseycampbell358 (Jun 17, 2012)

woganvonderweidenstrasse said:


> Help please!!
> My breeder emailed yesterday to say that she had a good look at the pictures I sent her of Logan and she feels I have to improve on his condition. She says he looks emaciated and tired, has no muscle on his hind legs and that his vertebrae is protruding on his back. Of course the raw diet is now getting the blame....
> I'm attaching a few pics; please tell me if you guys agree with her? I don't want my dog to look emaciated!!! Until recently he's been getting 1.3kg - 1.4kg (that is 2.8 - 3 pounds) of food per day. I've now increased it to 2kg (4.4 pounds), that is more than 4% of his estimated adult body weight (45kg/99 pounds) - however I'm now starting to think he may end up weighing more than that judging by all the food he's consuming. Anyway, here are the pics: Oh, he's 10 months old at the moment and weighs 35.8kg (78.9 pounds) He's brothers weigh 36 and 37kg's, and is finer boned than him. They are getting 650gm(1.4 pounds) dry kibble/day.
> View attachment 9103
> ...


I have a Shepherd who I could NOT keep weight on as a pup. Now granted, I fed him Iams because I didn't know any better at the time. But Chief was eating me out of house and home, and my friends were accusing me of starving my poor dog! I think your dog is at a good weight, for a Shepherd of that age, based on the pics ALONE. It is definitely hard to tell for sure without putting hands on him, though. I'm not a fan of people who brag about having bulky German Shepherds. The breed isn't supposed to be heavy. I like lean, muscular dogs. On that note, I do think his coat condition and muscle tone have room for improvement though. Are you giving anything with extra Omega-3's, like salmon oil, or eggs daily? That could vastly improve the coat. Regular brushing with a Furminator works miracles too. And I would incorporate some extra light exercise daily, also, to improve that rear end. He's gorgeous though! I love those huge ears! =)


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## gorge77 (May 13, 2011)

hi all, thought i could ride on this thread so as not to duplicate it.

recently i had a group of friends over to my house & quite a number commented that my dogs look skinny. i felt, well, insulted but yet at the same, i started to wonder if i am starving them?

in my country, many dogs are viewed as normal if they didn't have a waistline. anything less is "skinny". i just needed a second opinion to have an assurance that my dogs are not skinny & that they are lean. they are both raw fed.


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## Herzo (Feb 5, 2011)

They don't look to skinny to me, they look just fine.


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## paw4x3 (Dec 2, 2012)

I would not describe him as emaciated, but again, a full coated dog needs to have hands on him to really tell. If you can feel his ribs but not spaces between with no fat or muscle and his hips are not protruding with no muscle over them or the shoulders and spine have a little muscle or fat over them, then he is not emaciated. I am concerned about the dullness of his coat, however. If you are feeding very lean meats you might want to try s l o w l y adding meats that are a bit fattier. Every thing needs fats for growth and brain development. Salmon oil may also help, but again go slow. As a pup grows he is just like a child. There is growth and then the body fills in a bit, then more growth until full maturity is reached so at times in this process he may look thinner than usual. At least that is what I observed when I raised Great Dane puppies. I've only been doing raw for a little over a year, so I would appreciate it if others would comment on my suggestions and their accuracy.


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