# 30/20 Kibble Suggestions?



## Squeeji (Feb 17, 2012)

My hard keeper Barnabus is at it again, and while I love him dearly I'm at my wit's end about his weight issues- he's a Boston Terrier, and thinks he's a terrier much, much bigger and active then he should be- he's in agility and goes on regular runs and bike rides. Just shy of two years, he's been on a half and half of raw and Fromm Puppy Gold, and no matter how much I feed (usually a cup of food a day, and 8 oz of raw, one meal at night, one in the morning) he doesn't keep weight, he's been on just raw, and just kibble...and hasn't done well on either on their own, so please don't tell me how wrong I'm doing there- I'm doing my best and keeping his meals separated so there isn't digestive issues (and there haven't). He's been to the vet, full blood work on his thyroid, checked for worms...the whole nine yards. Poops are good, eats everything you put before him. He's healthy and normal, just skinny!

The vet suggests putting him on a 30/20 hi-pro dog food and up the raw to fattier cuts, but I don't want him to just get FAT, I want him to be healthy! So I guess what I'm asking is some suggestions for some High Performance dog foods for this lapdog that thinks he's a working breed. I'm always willing to order on-line, and I have a few places that sell some good stuff around...things i should point out- he tends to have a lot of reactions to peas and potatoes (yeast issues) but he does well enough on grain inclusive.

Thanks in advance!


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## lauren43 (Feb 6, 2011)

I don't have any suggestions on what kibble to use, but if his stools and energy and health is all good, I don't see why you couldn't just add more food. What kinds of meat does he get?

Also is there a reason he is still on puppy food?


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## SaharaNight Boxers (Jun 28, 2011)

Are his ribs or spine showing? If you can see a last rib or so, I would say he's fine and doesn't really need to gain weight. I would personally try to keep him lean for agility. I would just up his amount of raw and kibble until he's at a good weight. I wouldn't completely switch everything if he's fine other than weight.


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## DaViking (Sep 27, 2011)

SaharaNightBoxers have a good point, switching food *can* open a can worms. However, if you want to try something else with more energy Annamaet Ultra is a safe bet.


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## Squeeji (Feb 17, 2012)

lauren43- He's on the puppy food because I like Fromm as a company, however, when I took him onto one of their lower calorie foods he didn't do very well at all. As for meats, he gets venison, chicken, goat, pork...a lot of pork actually. He does best on pork.

SaharaNights- His ribs do show, and his spine isn't OBVIOUS, but you can see it on occasion depending on the angle, and that's what bothers/worries me.


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## lauren43 (Feb 6, 2011)

The only reason I ask is because the levels in puppy foods aren't always appropriate for adult dogs. If I were you I'd be looking for a food with a higher min protein level, but I personally wouldn't go crazy with the fat. Daviking had a good food suggestion, haven't heard anything bad about that company but I haven't tried it personally (though the last time I switched my Tess, it was one of the foods I was considering)..


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## Squeeji (Feb 17, 2012)

DaViking- I've heard good things about Annamaet (a few of the folks at the agility club swear by it- others swear by others so I'm sort of just taking a poll of suggestions by this point), definitely something I'll have to order however.

Lauren43- Part of my concern as well, which is part of the reason I'm thinking of moving away from Fromm even if I like the company and he does well on their grain inclusives...except when it comes to keeping weight, he was almost on 2 cups of Gold Adult to maintain.


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## riddick4811 (Nov 2, 2011)

I have a Boston too that is a hard keeper. Jack is super active. I swear this dog can out do the Energizer Bunny! He is 4 yrs old now and doing a bit better with weight maintenance, but he can drop weight very easily. But he eats a lot for a dog his size. Raw chicken with lots of fat and fatty hamburger with performance kibble works the best for him. I feed him kibble 2x a day most days and 3-4 days a week he gets a raw meal. Sometimes if he looking thin, I feed him raw hamburger in the middle of the day for a snack. 

He did very well on Victor Hi Pro (30/20). But we are trying Annamaet Extra now which is 26/14. But with 3 days on the Annamaet Extra he is dropping weight so we may try the Ultra. He does love the Annamaet though, better than the Victor. 

Also had good results with Native Level 3 (used the puppy food b/c of smaller kibble pieces only difference between that and the adult per Native) but I can no longer order it and it isn't sold near me.


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## whiteleo (Sep 7, 2008)

My foster put on much needed weight with the Natures Variety Instinct raw boost, kibble with extra added stuff. He's kept the weight on with the one bag and now I'm feeding him just Instinct


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## monster'sdad (Jul 29, 2012)

Dr. Tim's Pursuit
Annamaet Ultra
Precise Endurance
Eagle Power Pack
Euk Premium 30/20
Pro Pac Performance

Let me also give a you a suggestion for hard keepers, sometimes a 24-26/20 is better for really tough cases. When the gap is smaller the dog will hold better weight. Lots of protein calories are wasted during metabolism, so when the total amount of calories is skewed to fat and carbs, weight gain is more. Some hunting dogs hold weight better on a 24/20 food and they are very easy to find. In agility, where lots of short burst activity is required the extra carbs are good.

Try the 30/20 first and that should be enough fat for that breed. If you want to continue to add raw use green tripe because it is well balanced and low in calcium and phosphorous.


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## monster'sdad (Jul 29, 2012)

riddick4811 said:


> I have a Boston too that is a hard keeper. Jack is super active. I swear this dog can out do the Energizer Bunny! He is 4 yrs old now and doing a bit better with weight maintenance, but he can drop weight very easily. But he eats a lot for a dog his size. Raw chicken with lots of fat and fatty hamburger with performance kibble works the best for him. I feed him kibble 2x a day most days and 3-4 days a week he gets a raw meal. Sometimes if he looking thin, I feed him raw hamburger in the middle of the day for a snack.
> 
> He did very well on Victor Hi Pro (30/20). But we are trying Annamaet Extra now which is 26/14. But with 3 days on the Annamaet Extra he is dropping weight so we may try the Ultra. He does love the Annamaet though, better than the Victor.
> 
> Also had good results with Native Level 3 (used the puppy food b/c of smaller kibble pieces only difference between that and the adult per Native) but I can no longer order it and it isn't sold near me.


Rid,

Three days is not enough to judge. Be patient.


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## riddick4811 (Nov 2, 2011)

monster'sdad said:


> Rid,
> 
> Three days is not enough to judge. Be patient.


Patience is not one of my virtues!


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## monster'sdad (Jul 29, 2012)

riddick4811 said:


> Patience is not one of my virtues!


LOLOLO are the stools ok? What is the weight of the dog and how much are you feeding?


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## riddick4811 (Nov 2, 2011)

Stools are fine. He is eating 1/2 cup 2x a day. He is 20lbs, 4 yr old, intact male Boston Terrier. He doesn't look bad, but I can see a difference. We have 40lbs to go through so we will see. I switched Jack w/o mixing. But I have been mixing the last bit of Victor with Annamaet for Ronon. Stools are good for him, but he is going 3 times instead of 2. But it is firm. So we will see. But they both love the food. Casper and Ronon eat from a raised feeder side by side and Casper keeps wanting in the Annamaet and he usually ignores Ronon's food. I am half tempted to try it. I don't know for sure what allergies he has, but I know all chicken foods I've fed have caused issues, but sometimes I wonder if it may be another ingredient or maybe just the quality of chicken. 

This goes on practically all day, every day so Jack needs plenty of energy to outrun Joey! He is a very hard muscled little dog. Weighs more than he looks. He is a tiny Boston compared to most we encounter. He runs for miles when we go hiking. He is very competitive and has to try and outrun the Greyhounds. He is a busy body even at home and constantly doing something even by himself. He will throw his own toys and go get them and "kill" them!


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## Sapphire-Light (Aug 8, 2010)

Neat! that's a pretty agile looking boston! some of the ones I see look nearly identical in body weight to common french bulldogs.


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## monster'sdad (Jul 29, 2012)

1/2 cup twice a day? If he runs around a lot and is intact, I would give another 1/4 cup. Weigh the dog today and then again in two weeks and then adjust. Little dogs burn a lot of calories, the stools should decrease as he gets in the groove with the food over the next week or so.


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## riddick4811 (Nov 2, 2011)

Sapphire-Light said:


> Neat! that's a pretty agile looking boston! some of the ones I see look nearly identical in body weight to common french bulldogs.


I post lots of picture in the picture section so go check Jack out. I have a Frenchie too. Rocky is bigger built than Jack, but he is pretty agile for a Frenchie too. He is not as active, but he goes hiking and keeps up quite well and he can even swim which I hear most Frenchies can't do. Rocky is also 9 yrs old and spent the first 6 yrs in a puppy mill, so he is pretty awesome! Or you can go to my photobucket acct- I have over 1,000 dog pics! http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/0903/Dogosndobes/#!cpZZ3QQtppZZ28


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## riddick4811 (Nov 2, 2011)

monster'sdad said:


> 1/2 cup twice a day? If he runs around a lot and is intact, I would give another 1/2cup. Weigh the dog today and then again in two weeks. Little dogs burn a lot of calories, the stools should decrease as he gets in the groove with the food over the next week or so.


I will try that.


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## Caty M (Aug 13, 2010)

I have two hard keepers (Italian greyhounds) and they eat around 1lb of raw a day... So 10% of their body weight. When I want them to gain weight I do more pork fat and beef heart- works great. Not sure on kIbble suggestions but I'm sure other members will give you some! What do you feed on raw?


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## riddick4811 (Nov 2, 2011)

Just realized, I misspoke or maybe it should mistyped!? Rocky gets 1/2 cup 2x a day, Jack was getting 3/4 cup 2x a day. So I gave him a full cup this morning. Probably keep the evening feeding at 3/4. Casper doesn't eat much more than he does! Life is so not fair sometimes and I know how Casper feels! He gets 1.5 cups AM and 1 cup PM and has 100lbs on Jack!


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## dr tim (Mar 27, 2011)

Riddick, do you ever stay on a food longer than a trial bag?


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## riddick4811 (Nov 2, 2011)

dr tim said:


> Riddick, do you ever stay on a food longer than a trial bag?


Yep. They were on Earthborn Grain free for about a year until they raised the price. Ronon has been on Victor Hi Pro for 3 months. Got about a pound left and been mixing with the Annamaet b/c I don't like having to drive and get the Victor and I can order Annamaet online and get it delivered to my door. Rocky has been on Victor Ocean Blend for a little over 3 months too and has about a month's worth of food left. I fed Pro Plan Performance for about 4 yrs to my Dobermans then I switched to raw and fed raw for 6 yrs straight w/ no kibble. Then my Dobe bloated and had trouble with raw after that and we went back to kibble. And since he passed on, kibble is just easier than raw since most of my suppliers went out of business or have so little it isn't worth the drive to get it. 

What does it matter to you what I feed or how long I feed it?


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## dr tim (Mar 27, 2011)

It doesn't matter to me but you try so many types of feeds it is interesting to hear your observations.


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## riddick4811 (Nov 2, 2011)

dr tim said:


> It doesn't matter to me but you try so many types of feeds it is interesting.


I feed a lot of dogs and I don't try different foods on all dogs. I used to foster a lot (but stopped the past year) and had sometimes up to 15 different dogs. So when something was on sale or a good, deal, I fed a wide variety to my fosters. They ate basically whatever was on sale at the time or whatever food the rescue provided (which was rare) I usually had to buy the food. 

My dogs now, don't eat the same food.

I am trying now to get it down to 2 foods that will work. Since my roommate is gone and it is just my 6 dogs. I have one active group with no allergies and one senior group with some of them having allergies. I would like to find a food that each group can eat so I only have to buy one big bag a month for each group. But so far, nothing has worked to fit this need. One does really well, the other not so much.


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## dr tim (Mar 27, 2011)

Thanks for fostering or rescuing those dogs


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## InkedMarie (Sep 9, 2011)

Dr. Tim's Pursuit is working well to help my Brittany gain.


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## jerrypardue (Jan 4, 2013)

If you are convinced that Barnabus is getting a balanced healthy diet, and it seems you are, some help may coming by not changing the diet but changing the dog. That may sound crazy but if there is a Tractor Supply Company store nearby, there is a product available there called Opti-Zyme. This is a yeast and probiotic supplement that is multi-species and has a broad spectrum of digestive aids in it. It is not very expensive and is fed according to body weight. In this way, Barnabus gets more out of what he does eat, increases digestive performance, and has numerous health benefits for your dog.


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## PDXdogmom (Jun 30, 2010)

If you are wanting to stay with a Fromm product for kibble, have you considered their Surf & Turf formula? It's 30% protein and 19% fat.


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## monster'sdad (Jul 29, 2012)

PDXdogmom said:


> If you are wanting to stay with a Fromm product for kibble, have you considered their Surf & Turf formula? It's 30% protein and 19% fat.


It won't work the way a performance kibble works. There is more to it than just the GA. The cooking process, grind, fiber all contribute to how the foods works, or doesn't. Performance foods always have a mix of carbohydrate too, from quick to slow burn and they are generally lower in soluble fiber.


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## monster'sdad (Jul 29, 2012)

InkedMarie said:


> Dr. Tim's Pursuit is working well to help my Brittany gain.


Great!! When you get her to weight you like cut back a bit. A pup that size should be on about 1.5 - 1.75 cups total of a 20% fat food, my guess, this time of year and given a Brits activity level.


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## Squeeji (Feb 17, 2012)

I'm appreciating all of this input guys...sorry if I don't get back with everyone's questions but. 

Riddick, your Boston boy reminds me a lot of my Bus only he still has that awful gangly teenager build lol. I'm happy with Fromm except that Barnabus is just eating so much to maintain and of course while his poops are well-formed, they are huge, and there are a lot of them just because so much mass coming in, is so much mass coming out. Again, I've tried their GF varieties but Barnabus doesn't do well on potatoes at all.


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## InkedMarie (Sep 9, 2011)

monster'sdad said:


> Great!! When you get her to weight you like cut back a bit. A pup that size should be on about 1.5 - 1.75 cups total of a 20% fat food, my guess, this time of year and given a Brits activity level.


At the moment, she is finishing up The Honest Kitchen in the morning so she gets one cup of Pursuit in the afternoon. When she's done with THK, I'll probably have to reduce the food. Thanks!


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## riddick4811 (Nov 2, 2011)

Squeeji said:


> I'm appreciating all of this input guys...sorry if I don't get back with everyone's questions but.
> 
> Riddick, your Boston boy reminds me a lot of my Bus only he still has that awful gangly teenager build lol. I'm happy with Fromm except that Barnabus is just eating so much to maintain and of course while his poops are well-formed, they are huge, and there are a lot of them just because so much mass coming in, is so much mass coming out. Again, I've tried their GF varieties but Barnabus doesn't do well on potatoes at all.


Thanks! Never though I liked Bostons until I got Jack. And I wasn't looking for or wanting a dog. Got a call about a dog fixing to go the pound and my friend said she would take him, but was at work and wanted me to go get him. I drove out to BFE at night, no cell phone reception and got this nasty, dirty, scrawny little Boston who was chained up outback with about 20 pit bulls. He kept causing fights and they were afraid he was going to get killed. Friend backed out and I was stuck with him, but he grew on me!  They are great dogs, but darn if they aren't active!


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## monster'sdad (Jul 29, 2012)

Squeeji said:


> I'm appreciating all of this input guys...sorry if I don't get back with everyone's questions but.
> 
> Riddick, your Boston boy reminds me a lot of my Bus only he still has that awful gangly teenager build lol. I'm happy with Fromm except that Barnabus is just eating so much to maintain and of course while his poops are well-formed, they are huge, and there are a lot of them just because so much mass coming in, is so much mass coming out. Again, I've tried their GF varieties but Barnabus doesn't do well on potatoes at all.


Squeeji,

Check out the Dr. Tim's FB Page.

Lots of folks in competition post there. New photos are a Malinois, a husky team out of Oregon and a NAVHDA Versatile Champion German Wirehaired Pointer.


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## Jacksons Mom (Jun 13, 2010)

monster'sdad said:


> Squeeji,
> 
> Check out the Dr. Tim's FB Page.
> 
> Lots of folks in competition post there. New photos are a Malinois, a husky team out of Oregon and a NAVHDA Versatile Champion German Wirehaired Pointer.


LOL, can I just say, I thought you were "squee"ing here - as in excitement. I was like, wtf, Monsters doesn't squee. Then I realized you were talking about a user name.


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