# Synthetic Vitamins in Kibbles



## Sheltielover25 (Jan 18, 2011)

I've been researching kibble for a while as my cat won't adjust to the raw diet -- as in she won't eat any at all. We haven't given up, but we have to feed her something in the mean time. We also feed our fosters kibble because most are only with us 2-3 weeks.

I'm really confused why the majority of brands use spray-on chemicals(aka synthetic vitamins) to give animals their vital nutrients. Why are their ingredients so inferior that this must be done? It's clearly not impossible as Nature's Logic (and maybe others I'm unaware of) don't use any synthetic vitamins and derive vital nutrients from their ingredients only. I couldn't find any tests that have been done to make sure animals can break down synthetic vitamins and benefit from them. I found some information that suggested only around 60% of the vitamins can be broken down and absorbed. 

I see these brands that are top dollar --Acana, Orijen, and others that seem to be considered good quality but then I see they're adding all these man made vitamins and I can't help but wonder what the deal is? Does anyone else? Anyone know of any studies done to show animals can get what they need from synthetic vitamins? Kibble has only been around 90 years or so and I'm just a bit worried that's really not enough time for animals to be adapting to digesting synthetic vitamins. 

What are your thoughts?


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## PDXdogmom (Jun 30, 2010)

Without giving it much serious thought, couldn't we compare the kibble to human breakfast cereal? They are both very processed and exposed to high heat. Much of the vitamin content of the original ingredients is lost in the cooking process. Most cereals add synthetic vitamins back into the cereal to provide X% of the daily total requirement. Same with the kibble.


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## FurMom1089 (Apr 22, 2012)

I agree ^

the good stuff is cooked all out of the food, a big reason why dehydrated is better than kibble, but not as good as raw...you simply cannot use cheap ingredients and expect all the nutrients to survive, so its added back in... just as cheaply...

I couldnt get misha to eat raw either she would snub it then spend the whole day crying and running to her dish :/

but I cheated... kinda... I started with mixing a tiny bit of ground turkey or pork into the wet food, and in semi-equal amounts decreased the wet and increased the raw, I cut up heart and gizzard into tiny bite sized pieces and slowly increased it to a small mouthful, we are currently stuck at this size, but shes getting better! I have now phased out the wet entirely, I added the meat juices back in though to create an almost drinkable meal with chunks. Tonight shes eating a few globs of ground turkey and pork with no extra yummies, she ate half atleast and she'll likely finish it sometime tonight  it'll be slow going, but eventually she'll graduate to whole bone in meals.. I scooped her box earlier and found one formed poo! woot! its been a looooong time... probably a year... yes im excited dammit! lmao


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## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

For your cats - I have read here that dry food is really bad for them. Can you feed them wet food? Or a combo?


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## wolfsnaps88 (Jan 2, 2012)

well during the high heat used to cook kibble, whatever natural occurring vitamins are killed off. So, they have to add them back in so its balanced. Don't even get me started on menidione sodium bisulfite. I have gotten into fights about this synthetic vitamin K. It may not be in the higher end kibble, but its in a LOT of kibble.


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## CavePaws (Jan 25, 2011)

Nutrients do not survive the high temperatures required to make kibble or canned food. I would go with all wet food for your cats. Try evo, merick 96%, tiki cat, Wellness core canned.


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## DaViking (Sep 27, 2011)

Sheltielover25 said:


> I've been researching kibble for a while as my cat won't adjust to the raw diet -- as in she won't eat any at all. We haven't given up, but we have to feed her something in the mean time. We also feed our fosters kibble because most are only with us 2-3 weeks.
> 
> I'm really confused why the majority of brands use spray-on chemicals(aka synthetic vitamins) to give animals their vital nutrients. Why are their ingredients so inferior that this must be done? It's clearly not impossible as Nature's Logic (and maybe others I'm unaware of) don't use any synthetic vitamins and derive vital nutrients from their ingredients only. I couldn't find any tests that have been done to make sure animals can break down synthetic vitamins and benefit from them. I found some information that suggested only around 60% of the vitamins can be broken down and absorbed.
> 
> ...


Natures Logic spray it on too. From their website "Each dry diet is specially *coated* with digestive enzymes and plasma protein containing high levels of natural vitamins, minerals, and albumin and globulin proteins." Only difference is they use "natural" vitamins as a marketing point. Fact is 999 out of 1000 brands add these vitamins for a reason, it works. If not waiting rooms across the globe would be filled to the brim with dogs showing signs of vitamin deficiencies. That's not the case since these foods are adequately balanced vitamin wise, synthetic or natural. Their ingredients are not inferior as you put it, some are obviously better than others. Problem is that some nutrients are rendered inactive or destroyed completely at certain temperatures and production methods. If needed these are added back to the kibble at the end of the production line. Except for menadione/K3 there is no serious controversy adding in various vitamins, none. Look at kibble as a designed food. You can design it poorly with very little thought to anything except profit like Ol Roy, Dog Chow and similar, or you can design it with high quality like some of the sled dog formulas. To illustrate that further, a low quality food might just include 1 isolated B vitamin but a quality formula will include the whole B-complex so they can work together.


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## DaViking (Sep 27, 2011)

CavePaws said:


> Nutrients do not survive the high temperatures required to make kibble or canned food. I would go with all wet food for your cats. Try evo, merick 96%, tiki cat, Wellness core canned.


When said like that it's not necessary true anymore. Only some nutrients like enzymes and vitamins are added back in. Secondly, today there is for example cold extruding and low temperature cooking and baking which retains various properties.


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## Sheltielover25 (Jan 18, 2011)

WOW This stuff is scary. These vitamins are totally toxic. I wasn't aware I was feeding my animal formaldehyde in the form of Vitamin B-6. Nature's Logic does add back in nutrients, but the point is they don't use synthetic vitamins, only real ingredients to add it back in. I get it has to be added back in because of cooking it, but I don't get why it has to be so toxic in so many cases.

The Truth About Vitamins in Nutritional Supplements


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## Sheltielover25 (Jan 18, 2011)

FurMom1089 said:


> I agree ^
> 
> the good stuff is cooked all out of the food, a big reason why dehydrated is better than kibble, but not as good as raw...you simply cannot use cheap ingredients and expect all the nutrients to survive, so its added back in... just as cheaply...
> 
> ...


Have you tried dehydrated? What's it like? I wonder if she'd go for that. Maybe I could do that and switch her over. I need to get serious and buckle down because this is too much.


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## Unosmom (May 3, 2009)

I dont really have much of an issue with it, since commercial food is processed, they have to add in the vitamins to balance it out. Some are better then others like sodium selenite vs selenium yeast and so forth. Also a lot of synthetic vitamins come from china, but thats also true for human supplements as well. 
I kinda look at it like us taking a daily multivitamin, yes, ideally we would get all our nutrients from whole foods, but in some cases we have to make a compromise and do what we feel is best and what we can afford. 
On a separate note, I've tried Uno on natures logic few years ago and he had the worst reaction (I later found out that he's allergic to yeast which is high up on the ingredient list), my parents dog is eating this brand right now and seems to like it and does fine on it.


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## CavePaws (Jan 25, 2011)

DaViking said:


> When said like that it's not necessary true anymore. Only some nutrients like enzymes and vitamins are added back in. Secondly, today there is for example cold extruding and low temperature cooking and baking which retains various properties.


Ya. sorry for the blanket statement. I was too lazy and typing on my phone to add "some" before the nutrients. I think the person asking the question gets the general idea...Since they asked why synthetic vitamins have to be added back in... Well, because those nutrients were lost. Simple answer.

But. Aside from that, ya some kibbles are now baking at low temperature and there are a TON of dehydrated raw, freeze-dryed raw, and air-dried foods available now.  ZiwiPeak and Stella and Chewys are my favorite.

This just gave me an idea, though. *runs to the suggestions forum*

Something cool - Nature's Variety - Instinct is adding a freeze-dried raw coating to their kibble now.


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## Sheltielover25 (Jan 18, 2011)

CavePaws said:


> Ya. sorry for the blanket statement. I was too lazy and typing on my phone to add "some" before the nutrients. I think the person asking the question gets the general idea...Since they asked why synthetic vitamins have to be added back in... Well, because those nutrients were lost. Simple answer.
> 
> But. Aside from that, ya some kibbles are now baking at low temperature and there are a TON of dehydrated raw, freeze-dryed raw, and air-dried foods available now.  ZiwiPeak and Stella and Chewys are my favorite.
> 
> ...


I have looked into ziwipeak and love the idea but it's sooo expensive. It might not be too bad, though, for one animal. I've just been reading about these synthetic vitamins and the side-effects of some seem rather toxic. Especially the one a previous poster mentioned, the Vitamin K, I believe. I have been taking the back of Evo, for example, and googling each vitamin and finding it's made in a process that consist of formaldehyde or carbolic acid is ALARMING! My dogs have a neuro disorder and toxins set off episodes. I fed him a handful of kibble the other day, not even sure why as I was feeding the foster dog and my mine did it without thinking, but he had an episode later. I tried again a week later out of curiosity and sure enough he did again. That's what got me thinking because vaccines set him off too and I assumed it was the formaldehyde or something in the vaccine... then I find out it can be traced in the food!


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## DaViking (Sep 27, 2011)

Sheltielover25 said:


> I have looked into ziwipeak and love the idea but it's sooo expensive. It might not be too bad, though, for one animal. I've just been reading about these synthetic vitamins and the side-effects of some seem rather toxic. Especially the one a previous poster mentioned, the Vitamin K, I believe. I have been taking the back of Evo, for example, and googling each vitamin and finding it's made in a process that consist of formaldehyde or carbolic acid is ALARMING! My dogs have a neuro disorder and toxins set off episodes. I fed him a handful of kibble the other day, not even sure why as I was feeding the foster dog and my mine did it without thinking, but he had an episode later. I tried again a week later out of curiosity and sure enough he did again. That's what got me thinking because vaccines set him off too and I assumed it was the formaldehyde or something in the vaccine... then I find out it can be traced in the food!


K3 is really the only controversial one. Vit K is an unnecessary addition. Only needed if your dog is poisoned and then it should be administered directly. If you feed raw regular chicken from the grocery store your dog is likely to be exposed to various toxins too. Studies of industrial raised chicken have found toxin levels high enough to affect humans. In this respect your average purdue chicken is no safer than the chicken meals that go into kibble formulas.


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## Sheltielover25 (Jan 18, 2011)

DaViking said:


> K3 is really the only controversial one. Vit K is an unnecessary addition. Only needed if your dog is poisoned and then it should be administered directly. If you feed raw regular chicken from the grocery store your dog is likely to be exposed to various toxins too. Studies of industrial raised chicken have found toxin levels high enough to affect humans. In this respect your average purdue chicken is no safer than the chicken meals that go into kibble formulas.


Oh, even if I could, they'd never come near a Purdue Chicken or a Tyson Chicken or any factory farmed chicken, beef, turkey, pork, or any animal for that matter. We don't feed things unless we're able to know for sure how the animal lived. Meaning it must see day light and not be GMO and not have been given antibiotics/hormones. That's the thing that bothers me a lot about kibbles, most of the sources, you can't determine. Nature's Logic tells you the state their meat comes from but not the actual place. Bothersome. 

I was reading about niacin and how it's processed with formaldehyde and ammonia. Scary. So they're getting double toxins in kibble -- from the vitamins and from the meat sources probably. Great. Maybe I can e-mail NL and ask where their chicken comes directly come.


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## Makovach (Jan 24, 2012)

Will your cat eat canned food? 

I know I have heard of people mixing ground raw with canned food to disguise it. Then slowly making the pieces of raw bigger and slowly reducing the canned. 

As far as the addeds in the kibble, I don't think your going to get far from it. Some use different things, but they are still additives. I wish cats were like dogs and could do the whole eat or starve thing. It would be so much easier. Cats can wrap you around their finger so quickly!


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## Sheltielover25 (Jan 18, 2011)

Makovach said:


> Will your cat eat canned food?
> 
> I know I have heard of people mixing ground raw with canned food to disguise it. Then slowly making the pieces of raw bigger and slowly reducing the canned.
> 
> As far as the addeds in the kibble, I don't think your going to get far from it. Some use different things, but they are still additives. I wish cats were like dogs and could do the whole eat or starve thing. It would be so much easier. Cats can wrap you around their finger so quickly!


You got that right. I've been trying for over a year to get her switched. Here's the thing with canned -- she's picky as hell. Some days she'll eat it, most days she won't. She waste SO much of it. And it's expensive. So I had to take a break from it because I am going through a tight spot with moving and needing to save money. I'm all for giving her canned, just the wasting sucks. I need to work harder once I get settled into our new place. She's so stubborn. I got her addicted to fresh cream from raw milk so maybe if I pour that over the canned? 

I am surprised how healthy she is honestly. I fed purina for years! I never thought about it until I got sick animals who couldn't handle toxins then realized what was in animal food. Surprisingly, minus the teeth cleaning, she's in good health and has never been sick. Maybe cats are just tougher, though. She's a funny girl and stubborn as hell!

Thanks for the suggestions.


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## DaViking (Sep 27, 2011)

Sheltielover25 said:


> Oh, even if I could, they'd never come near a Purdue Chicken or a Tyson Chicken or any factory farmed chicken, beef, turkey, pork, or any animal for that matter. We don't feed things unless we're able to know for sure how the animal lived. Meaning it must see day light and not be GMO and not have been given antibiotics/hormones. That's the thing that bothers me a lot about kibbles, most of the sources, you can't determine. Nature's Logic tells you the state their meat comes from but not the actual place. Bothersome.
> 
> I was reading about niacin and how it's processed with formaldehyde and ammonia. Scary. So they're getting double toxins in kibble -- from the vitamins and from the meat sources probably. Great. Maybe I can e-mail NL and ask where their chicken comes directly come.


If all of this is a concern just go with a formula with traceable organic ingredients. Those have been popping up everywhere the last 10 years or so. You just have to pay a premium for the comfort.


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## PDXdogmom (Jun 30, 2010)

DaViking said:


> K3 is really the only controversial one. Vit K is an unnecessary addition. Only needed if your dog is poisoned and then it should be administered directly. If you feed raw regular chicken from the grocery store your dog is likely to be exposed to various toxins too. *Studies of industrial raised chicken have found toxin levels high enough to affect humans. In this respect your average purdue chicken is no safer than the chicken meals that go into kibble formulas.*




That is so true. I don't eat meat myself; but when I buy some ground meat to cook for my dogs, I make sure it's a regional source that i know the background of. Otherwise, I'm losing a large part of the reason to add some of my own food to the kibble in the first place.


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