# Pancreatitis Diet



## Petrucci914 (Apr 5, 2011)

Hello,

Our 20 month old Schnoodle, Rosie, was just diagnosed with Pancreatitis. She's been lethargic and not eating her food unless I put some wet food in it. I read that Pancreatitis can be caused by an overweight dog or feeding a lot of table scraps. She is a perfect weight and we never feed her human food. I've always fed her Fromm or 'Taste of the Wild' Grain Free Dry Food. I read that Schnauzers have a predisposition for Pancreatitis so that is what I figure caused it. They say that I need to have her on a low-fat, low-card, high protein diet for at least the short-term but I figure I should continue this diet forever to prevent it from reoccuring. The only food I can find that specifically addresses this issue is Purina Gastric and Royal Canin Low Fat. I don't want to feed any of those foods because I do not trust the quality of those brands. Are there other good brands I can get that fit these needs? Otherwise, are there certain fat, protein, carb, levels that I should be looking for?

Thanks!


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## CavePaws (Jan 25, 2011)

Well, Royal Canin and Purina Gastric are not low in carbs. Yes they are low in fat, but not low in carbs at all. The first ingredient of Royal Canin is Rice. With kibble there is no way to avoid lots of carbs.

I have a friend who is feeding Honest Kitchen Embark, her dog did have Pancreatitis. Embark says to add in your own meats and things to add variety if you use their formula. I would just add in very lean meats, no extra carbohydrates. A kibble you may consider is EVO Weight Management.

Home Cooked is another option.


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## RawFedDogs (Jun 16, 2008)

Petrucci914 said:


> I read that Pancreatitis can be caused by an overweight dog or feeding a lot of table scraps. She is a perfect weight and we never feed her human food.


Pancreatitis is caused by the digestion of carbs putting a great strain on the pancreas. The dog's pancreas was never intended to process carbs. Eliminate them from the diet completely and the pancreatitis will go away.


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## Maxy24 (Mar 5, 2011)

Is there any way you can switch to a raw diet or all wet food diet? Those would GREATLY reduce the carbs, just choose a wet food without grains or a bunch of fruits and veggies (Before Grain and Evo 95% wet foods come to mind). With raw you can reduce fat yourself by not feeding fatty items and removing excess fat, with wet you'd have to read the labels and find one with lower fat levels (I don't know what is ideal for dogs with pancreatitis though, so you might want to find that out). Home made raw would likely be cheaper than wet, wet would be less time consuming. I don't know exactly how low carb you need the diet to be, but generally dry food has to have a decent amount of carb in it to be dry, so wet or raw would be better.


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## Petrucci914 (Apr 5, 2011)

Thanks for the responses!

How can I figure out how many carbs a food has? It's never really listed. I would think the Grain-Free food I feed her would already be low in carbs. I don't have a problem feeding her wet food if I need to. I noticed that Innovo does have a low-fat food and a lot of the 'Senior' foods are low in fat and such.


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

Petrucci914 said:


> Thanks for the responses!
> 
> How can I figure out how many carbs a food has? It's never really listed. I would think the Grain-Free food I feed her would already be low in carbs. I don't have a problem feeding her wet food if I need to. I noticed that Innovo does have a low-fat food and a lot of the 'Senior' foods are low in fat and such.


every dog food has to have a list of ingredients....grains are not the only carbs...if they use pea starch or potatoes, that would count as a starch.


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## Petrucci914 (Apr 5, 2011)

magicre said:


> every dog food has to have a list of ingredients....grains are not the only carbs...if they use pea starch or potatoes, that would count as a starch.


I see. I know that those things are carbs/starches but I was saying that it never says the total of Carbohydrates like you'd see on human food.


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

i don't think the total is nearly as important as what the carb is...so if the food you're feeding has potatoes, then you may want to find, let's say, a wet food, that is 95% meat or chicken or fish....without carbs...

by feeding protein and as few carbs as possible, including grains, of course, you're giving the pancreas a rest....


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## RawFedDogs (Jun 16, 2008)

In general the higher the protein, the lower the carbs. All foods contain 5 basic elements: protein, fat, carbs, moisture, & ash.

Percent of carbs = 100 - (percent of protein + percent of fat + percent moisture + percent of ash).


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## dr tim (Mar 27, 2011)

The pancreas is very responsive to fat in the diet as well.


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## DaneMama (Jun 27, 2008)

Dr. Tim is right. A pancreatic special diet needs to be carb free and low in fat. 

It also depends on if the case is chronic or acute pancreatitis. This will make a huge difference in what needs to be done in regards to long term vs short term changes/treatments.


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## RawFedDogs (Jun 16, 2008)

dr tim said:


> The pancreas is very responsive to fat in the diet as well.


Thats true with fats derived from plants. Not so much so with animal fats. Animal fats are much easier for a dog's body to handle and less work for the pancreas.


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## Petrucci914 (Apr 5, 2011)

RawFedDogs said:


> In general the higher the protein, the lower the carbs. All foods contain 5 basic elements: protein, fat, carbs, moisture, & ash.
> 
> Percent of carbs = 100 - (percent of protein + percent of fat + percent moisture + percent of ash).


That's really helpful. Thanks!


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## DaneMama (Jun 27, 2008)

RawFedDogs said:


> Thats true with fats derived from plants. Not so much so with animal fats. Animal fats are much easier for a dog's body to handle and less work for the pancreas.


An already compromised pancreas is sensitive to high fat diets even if they are appropriate animal fats. A normal pancreas thrives with natural animal fats.


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

i hope i'm understanding correctly....i would not increase fat in a diet of a dog with pancreatitis, but i certainly would not decrease the fat....


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## DaneMama (Jun 27, 2008)

Re- it depends on the particular case you're dealing with. Very acute serious cases you have to be very careful with the amount of fat during treatment and recovery. Once the pancreas has rebounded and is back to normal function the diet can be back to normal fat levels.


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

DaneMama said:


> Re- it depends on the particular case you're dealing with. Very acute serious cases you have to be very careful with the amount of fat during treatment and recovery. Once the pancreas has rebounded and is back to normal function the diet can be back to normal fat levels.


you're right......i had a brain event about two weeks ago and it causes me to do things like what i just posted above.

what i meant to say was i would change the type of fat, such as leaner red meats feed pork loin as opposed to picnic roast...i would also probably feed chicken breast as opposed to the fattier cuts....and increase fish, which has great healing properties....like sardines and anchovies....i wouldn't feed salmon, however because it would be too fatty.


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## Petrucci914 (Apr 5, 2011)

magicre said:


> you're right......i had a brain event about two weeks ago and it causes me to do things like what i just posted above.
> 
> what i meant to say was i would change the type of fat, such as leaner red meats feed pork loin as opposed to picnic roast...i would also probably feed chicken breast as opposed to the fattier cuts....and increase fish, which has great healing properties....like sardines and anchovies....i wouldn't feed salmon, however because it would be too fatty.


Sooo....

I want it to be low in fat and low in carbs? What is more important for the recovery from Pancreatitis?


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## DaneMama (Jun 27, 2008)

Both are important. You may have to get away from the world of processed kibble diets to get something that is truly ideal.


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

this is a problem for those who feed kibble, for there are carbs that are not grains or 'obvious' carbs....

you could home cook, which many people do and use ground egg shells or human grade bone meal for the calcium content and stool stability....but you can't use potatoes or rice or peas or tomatoes or fruits or anything with sugar...and the fat in the proteins would be the lower proteins, such as pork loin or lean beef and fish and chicken breast without the bone....

or you could go raw...which would probably be in your dog's best interests, but i don't want to push a philosophy that you may not be ready to hear or do.


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## Petrucci914 (Apr 5, 2011)

DaneMama said:


> Both are important. You may have to get away from the world of processed kibble diets to get something that is truly ideal.


I always tried to purchase high-quality food from specialty stores. The raw food thing has always interested me but I find different explanations everywhere.......some people see the food must be cooked to kill bacteria, others say you shouldn't cook the food. Anywhere I could look to get a common sense start?


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

i'd say here is a great place to start....: )

Dedicated to proper carnivore nutrition - Prey Model Raw Feeding for Dogs & Cats

and ask all the questions you want....there are so many who will hold your hand as your start this path from which you will
never turn back. promise.


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## Caty M (Aug 13, 2010)

Even the 'high quality' kibbles, though much better than the Kibbles n Bits and Dog Chow they sell at grocery stores, are still highly processed and contain carbs (even brands like EVO and Orijen still have around 30%.. the only way you can truly control what your dog eats is with homecooked or raw.. trust me.. your dog will be doing so much better.. and it's surprisingly cheap and easy..


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

i think that's key when your dog has a 'condition'.....it's a grand feeling to be in control....maybe for the first time in your dog's life....to cook for or raw feed...whichever is in your comfort zone..and, while many of use believe raw is more beneficial, many of us also believe that home cooking can be just as beneficial....


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## RawFedDogs (Jun 16, 2008)

Petrucci914 said:


> The raw food thing has always interested me but I find different explanations everywhere.......some people see the food must be cooked to kill bacteria, others say you shouldn't cook the food. Anywhere I could look to get a common sense start?


The place to get information about feeding raw is to ask someone who has been doing it successfully for a very long time ... that would be me. Don't cook food, it destroys nuntients. I've been raw feeding multiple dogs for 9 years and none of them as been sick one single time from bacteria. Neither have I or any members of my family. People who have fed raw for a good period of time know that bacteria just isn't a problem. I usually don't even wash my hands after feeding them anymore. I just rense then and forget it. 

To get my recomendations on how to start feeding a raw diet, visit my web page linked in my sig. After you have read my page and DaneMama's page, come back here and ask any questions you may have, and you will have some. :smile:


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

RawFedDogs said:


> The place to get information about feeding raw is to ask someone who has been doing it successfully for a very long time ... that would be me. Don't cook food, it destroys nuntients. I've been raw feeding multiple dogs for 9 years and none of them as been sick one single time from bacteria. Neither have I or any members of my family. People who have fed raw for a good period of time know that bacteria just isn't a problem. I usually don't even wash my hands after feeding them anymore. I just rense then and forget it.
> 
> 
> To get my recomendations on how to start feeding a raw diet, visit my web page linked in my sig. After you have read my page and DaneMama's page, come back here and ask any questions you may have, and you will have some. :smile:


i agree with you but i'm one of the all time converts to the religion of raw....and its miraculous benefits...well, natural to many, but a miracle to me..

but not everyone is in the place where they want to or can for whatever reason, get into raw. 

at least home cooking still gives control to the dog's owner and will benefit a dog who has pancreatitis....or is healthy, for that matter. just sayin'


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## Petrucci914 (Apr 5, 2011)

RawFedDogs said:


> The place to get information about feeding raw is to ask someone who has been doing it successfully for a very long time ... that would be me. Don't cook food, it destroys nuntients. I've been raw feeding multiple dogs for 9 years and none of them as been sick one single time from bacteria. Neither have I or any members of my family. People who have fed raw for a good period of time know that bacteria just isn't a problem. I usually don't even wash my hands after feeding them anymore. I just rense then and forget it.
> 
> To get my recomendations on how to start feeding a raw diet, visit my web page linked in my sig. After you have read my page and DaneMama's page, come back here and ask any questions you may have, and you will have some. :smile:



I just read your site and it actually doesn't sound as hard as I originally thought. I saw a lot of dog food recipes where people were adding different supplements, cooking rice, adding this, adding that..........sounded more complicated than my meals! I'm still a little put off by adding bones though. Rosie is just 22 lbs....I can't see her crushing a bone, or getting it down without me reaching down her throat so she doesn't die.......or maybe I'm overthinking it. She's mostly terrier breed so she's used to smaller varmints like mice, rabbits, etc. I would probably start with chicken, game birds, maybe some rabbit and stuff like that. If I start this I wouldn't want to be ordering cases until I'm confident in the whole thing. Is it bad to buy some of it from supermarkets? A lot of that stuff isn't organic and could have added hormones and whatnot in them...........do I need to be overly conscious of that?

Thanks!


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## Nani (Apr 14, 2010)

I do like to buy organic, I don't always. I do try and buy only grass-fed and I only buy antibiotic/hormone free. You can absolutely buy from the grocery store! I buy all sorts of meat from them. A 20lb dog should not have a prob chewing bones especially from chicken, game hen, fish.... There are many many threads on this website that have very good info about how to start. I started over 10yrs ago and dove head first into it but I have read a lot of info here and there is some really good advise on what to do week by week to get your dog's digestive tract used to a better diet. One way to save money is to get to the supermarket in the morning and look in the clearance meat bin!


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## RawFedDogs (Jun 16, 2008)

Petrucci914 said:


> I just read your site and it actually doesn't sound as hard as I originally thought. I saw a lot of dog food recipes where people were adding different supplements, cooking rice, adding this, adding that..........sounded more complicated than my meals!


It's very very little more difficult than feeding kibble.



> I'm still a little put off by adding bones though. Rosie is just 22 lbs....I can't see her crushing a bone, or getting it down without me reaching down her throat so she doesn't die.......or maybe I'm overthinking it.


You are overthinking but thats typical for someone considering raw or a new raw feeder. After a few months of feeding bones, you won't think anything of it. Dogs have been eating bones for millions of years. They know how and they are well equipped to do it.



> She's mostly terrier breed so she's used to smaller varmints like mice, rabbits, etc. I would probably start with chicken, game birds, maybe some rabbit and stuff like that.


Remember to start slow. Chicken only for the first couple of weeks. As you progress throught the first couple of months, you will both learn and become more comfortable. When I first started feeding my Thor raw, he was 23 lbs and was eating chicken backs the first day and chicken quarters the 2nd week. Your dog won't have any problems with any piece of chicken.



> If I start this I wouldn't want to be ordering cases until I'm confident in the whole thing. Is it bad to buy some of it from supermarkets? A lot of that stuff isn't organic and could have added hormones and whatnot in them...........do I need to be overly conscious of that?


ALL the food I feed is supermarket food. I don't get organic. I just buy what they order me which is normal stuff. Chicken doesn't have added hormones and whatnot. That will probably make up the biggest part of his diet forever because it's cheap and easy to get. I don't worry bout the hormones and other stuff allegedly in meats.


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## CavePaws (Jan 25, 2011)

I have a 16 lb terrier mix, so he is smaller than your dog. He eats a raw diet and I have given him tons of stuff I questioned if he could truly "crack", mostly because I didn't know if he would be zealous enough about it. He has had no problem, crunching up his bones or being zealous about his food. In fact, he now dances to get his food, when before it was a struggle to make him eat kibble. He's had pork ribs many times and never had a problem with them, I think those are the densest bones I have ever given him - other than just recreational bones for cleaning his old man teeth (which look amazing!)

DO IT. Go raw! I don't think you'll regret it at all. It is by far one of the best things I have ever done for my dogs.

edit: Oh and chicken bones are by far one of the easiest bones to crunch up. Puck is normally done with a drumstick in five minutes if he is _really _slow about it.


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## Maxy24 (Mar 5, 2011)

My 9 pound cat had no problem with bones, so your dog should do just fine. Just make sure the bones are the appropriate size for your dog.


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## Petrucci914 (Apr 5, 2011)

I think I may start Rosie on RAW after I get her through this Pancreatitis stuff. I may get a food processor, though, to kind of make her a patee' of sorts.

Anybody doing it with their cat? I've done a little Wikipedia'ing on this diet and for research done on it, it seems like it wasn't as successful with cats due to the diets being low in taurine or having parasites. Thoughts?


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## CavePaws (Jan 25, 2011)

Any diet that is balanced will be balanced in taurine. Thankfully, hearts are high in taurine. Cats and Dog are very different animals, so comparing the raw diet nutritionally between dogs and cat's really shouldn't be done. Cats need a lot of taurine, less than dogs.

Organs in a prey model diet would include liver, pancreas, kidneys, spleen and any other secreting organ; liver and kidneys supposedly being the most nutritious but I think for a truly "balanced" diet you should mix it up quite a bit. Liver needs to be 5% of the diet in some people's opinions, I couldn't verify how true this is, someone else will probably be able to.

Don't know why there would be a difference in the meat you would feed a cat over a dog and why there would be a difference in # of parasites in the meat.


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## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

RawFedDogs said:


> The place to get information about feeding raw is to ask someone who has been doing it successfully for a very long time ... that would be me. Don't cook food, it destroys nuntients. I've been raw feeding multiple dogs for 9 years and none of them as been sick one single time from bacteria. Neither have I or any members of my family. People who have fed raw for a good period of time know that bacteria just isn't a problem. I usually don't even wash my hands after feeding them anymore. I just rense then and forget it.
> 
> To get my recomendations on how to start feeding a raw diet, visit my web page linked in my sig. After you have read my page and DaneMama's page, come back here and ask any questions you may have, and you will have some. :smile:


Your page is great. It is one thing to read a bunch of stuff on the internet, and something totally different to come here and learn from people who have actually been doing it. Then, it's not theory any more.


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

of course it is up to you...and changing diets to one that is considered by some to be controversial can make anyone nervous,

but if changing to raw can actually help your dog's pancreatitis, wouldn't that make the most sense? just sayin'.


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## Maxy24 (Mar 5, 2011)

I fed my cat raw, but not for a very long time because my parents couldn't do it once I went to college. Now he gets wet food. He was very healthy on raw, and continues to be healthy on wet food. The only real change I noticed was his poop smells a bit more, his teeth are starting to get bad, and he's lost a little muscle mass. But I'm not worried about internal/possibly fatal harm like I would be if he were on kibble. Kibble is absolutely terrible for cats. I am a member of a cat forum with a lot of raw feeders and have not heard of issues with taurine or parasites. It is recommended to freeze pork or any wild caught meat for a little while before feeding to kill anything it could have. Also remember hearts have a lot of taurine and dark meat has more than light meat. So I'd always buy chicken thighs instead of breasts. Also remember to vary your meat. They can have any meat, but bones are limited to chicken, quail, or rabbit. Or if you do whole prey you can buy frozen mice/rats/guinea pigs which makes everything really simple. Really the hardest thing about feeding cat raw is getting them to eat it. Cats are VERY wary of new things so every time you introduce something new, the first raw meat ever, the first raw fish, raw beef, raw venison, raw liver, raw kidney, etc. the cat may reject it and you'll have to go through a whole process of getting him to just TRY it. The organs are what made feeding Willie raw very difficult, he hated them so I had to sneak them into him. My other cat, Neko, wouldn't touch anything so he was never put on raw. 

Of course not all cats are this difficult, but I find that is the biggest complaint by those trying to switch.


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## Caty M (Aug 13, 2010)

My sheltie weighs 16lb and eats bones.. pork, turkey, chicken, duck, quail.. he can't eat beef ribs though! He has been eating raw since he was a 3lb puppy.


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## Petrucci914 (Apr 5, 2011)

bishopthesheltie said:


> My sheltie weighs 16lb and eats bones.. pork, turkey, chicken, duck, quail.. he can't eat beef ribs though! He has been eating raw since he was a 3lb puppy.


I guess the thing that most worries me by not grinding is that she'll be running around with a raw piece of food on our floors.....seems a little messy and unsanitary. If I could grind everything up she would eat it all in her bowl.


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## KittyKat (Feb 11, 2011)

Petrucci914 said:


> I guess the thing that most worries me by not grinding is that she'll be running around with a raw piece of food on our floors.....seems a little messy and unsanitary. If I could grind everything up she would eat it all in her bowl.


My dog is a "grab and run" kinda gal... so I hold her meat while she eats it. It's actually pretty fun. She doesn't tend to eat it if I just dump it in her bowl... she'll keep licking it and then pull it out. I've tried laying it on the floor and sometimes she nudges it towards me.

When she's done,I just take a soapy cloth and wipe up where she was eating. Nothing messy or unsanitary about it.


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## Jackielyn (May 27, 2009)

Petrucci914 said:


> I guess the thing that most worries me by not grinding is that she'll be running around with a raw piece of food on our floors.....seems a little messy and unsanitary. If I could grind everything up she would eat it all in her bowl.


I fed mine outside, something to consider if it's option. I also gated them in the kitchen, just a quick spray of some vinegar water where they ate and we were good


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## Caty M (Aug 13, 2010)

My dog eats in his kennel. I have taught him that he only gets his food once he is sitting in there, now I just have to hold up a piece of quail or beef and he runs in there and sits down. I too don't like feeding around in the house.


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## KittyKat (Feb 11, 2011)

bishopthesheltie said:


> My dog eats in his kennel. I have taught him that he only gets his food once he is sitting in there, now I just have to hold up a piece of quail or beef and he runs in there and sits down. I too don't like feeding around in the house.


I would do that, but it seems to be the same, cleaning kitchen floor versus cleaning the kennel... only with the kennel i'd have to take out all her pillows, and her snugly.


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## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

I am a very slobby housekeeper but I like my filth to be of the inorganic nature, not the remains of animals, or something that comes out of animals. 

So I was worried about that also - where do I feed them? I just started, but so far it hasn't been that bad - my larger dog wants to stand in one place and eat, so it's just a quick wipe when he is finished.

My little dog wants to run to a corner and hide it, but I just put it on a towel a couple of times and now she doesn't run off any more.

Plus, it's warm now so I've fed them a couple of times out on the deck - when they are finished I just throw some water on it and sweep it off.

Now my husband is a whole different story - he is freaking out about the counters and salmonella. So I feed the dogs, wipe the counters down, and he comes along with his Comet and paper towels and disinfects everything about three times. I keep reminding him that WE eat chicken and put it on those counters and he says "but our chickens don't have HEADS and FEET!" I'm sure that's where all the salmonella is concentrated


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## Petrucci914 (Apr 5, 2011)

Brought Rosie in for her followup. Her Lipase was still really high. It is supposed to be between 200-1200 and she is at 4800. A few weeks ago it was at 5200. She has been on a low-fat wet food diet and she has no symptoms so I'm not sure what to do


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