# Breeder wants us to stay on Purina Pro Plan LB Puppy...



## Cur

...but is it really a good idea with all the fillers / less than ideal protein sources? She wants us to feed it to him for the first 6 months or so. She's a very well respective breeder, AKC breeder of merit, and has a great line of top winning dogs in her breed.

We just picked up our 11 week old Bullmastiff puppy and bought a bag of the Purina Pro Plan LB Puppy on her insistence / advice, and I was given a small bag of Orijen LB Puppy by our friendly grain store folks. I've been using the Orijen as treats for potty / crate training, and putting a small amount into his breakfast / dinner, to just see if it's compatible with his tummy. He seems to have no reactions to it.

Would you follow the breeders advice? Or would you move your new puppy to a much better food? 

I'm really torn.


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## Caty M

I'd switch. She can't force you to feed any food and there are much better options than Purina. What is her reasoning behind it?


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## Sprocket

If you want what is best for your pup, switch it.

If she wants to pay your vet bills for the rest of the dogs life, then keep it on PP.


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## BrownieM

It's your dog, I'd go ahead and switch.

A lot of breeders and show handlers to feed Pro Plan, btw.


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## 6Goldens

BrownieM said:


> It's your dog, I'd go ahead and switch.
> 
> A lot of breeders and show handlers to feed Pro Plan, btw.


Yes, several folks on the GR forum rave about Purina PP.


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## Maxy24

I'd switch. The breeder just thinks she's doing what's best for the pup, being a good breeder doesn't mean she knows anything about nutrition.


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## DaViking

Cur said:


> ...but is it really a good idea with all the fillers / less than ideal protein sources? She wants us to feed it to him for the first 6 months or so. She's a very well respective breeder, AKC breeder of merit, and has a great line of top winning dogs in her breed.
> 
> We just picked up our 11 week old Bullmastiff puppy and bought a bag of the Purina Pro Plan LB Puppy on her insistence / advice, and I was given a small bag of Orijen LB Puppy by our friendly grain store folks. I've been using the Orijen as treats for potty / crate training, and putting a small amount into his breakfast / dinner, to just see if it's compatible with his tummy. He seems to have no reactions to it.
> 
> Would you follow the breeders advice? Or would you move your new puppy to a much better food?
> 
> I'm really torn.


I would ditch them both and pick up a bag of Fromm Large Breed Puppy or Now GF Large Breed Puppy


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## domika

The ONLY reason I would stay on purina is if the dog was seems anxious at home and needed time getting used to the new surroundings. I wouldnt want to put extra stress on the puppy by adding a new food. But if he seems ok I would definitely switch. Right now I am a bit leery of champion foods with the yes/no were changing! So I agree with DaViking's suggestions.


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## 1605

Cur said:


> ...but is it really a good idea with all the fillers / less than ideal protein sources? She wants us to feed it to him for the first 6 months or so. She's a very well respective breeder, AKC breeder of merit, and has a great line of top winning dogs in her breed.
> 
> We just picked up our 11 week old Bullmastiff puppy and bought a bag of the Purina Pro Plan LB Puppy on her insistence / advice, and I was given a small bag of Orijen LB Puppy by our friendly grain store folks. I've been using the Orijen as treats for potty / crate training, and putting a small amount into his breakfast / dinner, to just see if it's compatible with his tummy. He seems to have no reactions to it.
> 
> Would you follow the breeders advice? Or would you move your new puppy to a much better food?
> 
> I'm really torn.


Despite the fact that we got our GSPs from two different breeders, BOTH advocated PPP. It took us a while to switch the older dog to a better food, but after doing some research, it wasn't too hard a decision. And the results speak for themselves.

Needless to say, puppy #2 was eating the "good stuff" before we picked him up.


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## Cur

domika said:


> The ONLY reason I would stay on purina is if the dog was seems anxious at home and needed time getting used to the new surroundings. I wouldnt want to put extra stress on the puppy by adding a new food. But if he seems ok I would definitely switch. Right now I am a bit leery of champion foods with the yes/no were changing! So I agree with DaViking's suggestions.


He's settled in quite nicely now I think. Poops are pretty well formed, but not rock hard. 

We keep him on a good routine, feedings at the same times of the day, same routine of taking him outside after uncrating for potty breaks, then play until he's pooped out, and then nap time.

I called around and a store close by carries Fromm, so I guess that's what I'll switch to. 

Thank you everyone for your tips and info.


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## lovemydogsalways

I agree he is your puppy and you can feed him what you want. Especially since you are going way up in quality. I have heard nothing but good things about Fromm. If it were around me I would add it to my rotation.


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## InkedMarie

The only reason I'd stay on what he's on is if it says you have to feed him a certain food in the contract.


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## DaViking

InkedMarie said:


> The only reason I'd stay on what he's on is if it says you have to feed him a certain food in the contract.


I would disregard any contract that instructed me to feed ProPlan. Compared to any of the other big brands with premium products Purina PP is inferior. PP is comparable to Pedigree, I would actually pick up a dry Pedigree formula any day over PP.


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## InkedMarie

DaViking said:


> I would disregard any contract that instructed me to feed ProPlan. Compared to any of the other big brands with premium products Purina PP is inferior. PP is comparable to Pedigree, I would actually pick up a dry Pedigree formula any day over PP.


I agree with you. I wouldn't buy any dog from a breeder who specified what I had to feed. My contract with Ginger's breeders just said to make sure I feed her a good quality food. She came to me on Nutro Ultra which isn't good enough quality for me. She had humongous, frequent poops. Still does on her Honest Kitchen days but we're used to it.


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## Cur

InkedMarie said:


> The only reason I'd stay on what he's on is if it says you have to feed him a certain food in the contract.





DaViking said:


> I would disregard any contract that instructed me to feed ProPlan. Compared to any of the other big brands with premium products Purina PP is inferior. PP is comparable to Pedigree, I would actually pick up a dry Pedigree formula any day over PP.


Nothing in our contract about brands to be fed. She just stated that her dogs do well on it, and expressed a desire (not a demand) that we keep him on it until ~6 months old. She's sticking with what she knows, and I honestly can't blame her for that.


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## LilasMom

Cur said:


> Nothing in our contract about brands to be fed. She just stated that her dogs do well on it, and expressed a desire (not a demand) that we keep him on it until ~6 months old. She's sticking with what she knows, and I honestly can't blame her for that.


I would switch, especially since he is a puppy and seems to be doing well at his new home. A high quality food will be very beneficial while he grows and develops into an adult. My boy Jack came from a great breeder with champion lines and everything, but he was on Purina as well. 

You can't blame her for it just as I can't blame my breeder for also feeding Purina, but you can greatly improve his quality of food and by doing so, hopefully his quality of life. The sooner the better to get that yucky animal digest and menadione out of his growing body, not to mention the other inappropriate ingredients.


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## Kibblelady

Maxy24 said:


> I'd switch. The breeder just thinks she's doing what's best for the pup, being a good breeder doesn't mean she knows anything about nutrition.



I am shaking my head at this. Of course the breeder knows about nutrition which is why she wanted the puppy on the *Large Breed* formula. She is obviously aware of the importance to bone and joint development in a large breed dog. Blindly suggesting this poster just switch without advising them of the unique needs of such a large breed puppy without suggestions about calorie levels, protein and fat percentages and the detrimental rates of growth that can come out of the wrong selection do the poster a disservice IMO  I don't think this was about forcing the owner to feed something etc it is about what can bring about the best outcome for their puppy and the breeder has faith in what she recommends. This IMO should not just be poo pooed without understanding her reasoning. If this poster were to just run out and by say Orijen it could potentially be a disaster  Their large breed puppy has 38% protein and 16% fat... and is concentrated on the calcium and phosphorous and not so much on calories...this is a different mind set from the breeder. 

Nothing is simply a matter of a breeder not knowing something....those with serious breeding programs know what works for their dogs and would not suggest something "bad" for their puppy buyers  While many may not be thrilled with her recommendation do not just automatically think it was made without nutrition in mind. Product selection and nutrition are totally different topics.

My advice to the original poster is so consult with the breeder about their concerns and find out what her goal is in recommending the food she recommended and then if they want to feed something else look for something that matches her concerns that also matches your desires.


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## Kibblelady

DaViking said:


> I would ditch them both and pick up a bag of Fromm Large Breed Puppy or Now GF Large Breed Puppy


Good suggestion.


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## Kibblelady

DaViking said:


> I would disregard any contract that instructed me to feed ProPlan. Compared to any of the other big brands with premium products Purina PP is inferior. PP is comparable to Pedigree, I would actually pick up a dry Pedigree formula any day over PP.



Oh man Viking we have to disagree on this lol No way is Pedigree even close to Pro Plan, for many reasons


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## LilasMom

Kibblelady said:


> I am shaking my head at this. *Of course the breeder knows about nutrition which is why she wanted the puppy on the *Large Breed* formula. She is obviously aware of the importance to bone and joint development in a large breed dog. Blindly suggesting this poster just switch without advising them of the unique needs of such a large breed puppy without suggestions about calorie levels, protein and fat percentages and the detrimental rates of growth that can come out of the wrong selection do the poster a disservice IMO * I don't think this was about forcing the owner to feed something etc it is about what can bring about the best outcome for their puppy and the breeder has faith in what she recommends. This IMO should not just be poo pooed without understanding her reasoning. If this poster were to just run out and by say Orijen it could potentially be a disaster  Their large breed puppy has 38% protein and 16% fat... and is concentrated on the calcium and phosphorous and not so much on calories...this is a different mind set from the breeder.
> 
> Nothing is simply a matter of a breeder not knowing something....those with serious breeding programs know what works for their dogs and would not suggest something "bad" for their puppy buyers  While many may not be thrilled with her recommendation do not just automatically think it was made without nutrition in mind. Product selection and nutrition are totally different topics.
> 
> My advice to the original poster is so consult with the breeder about their concerns and find out what her goal is in recommending the food she recommended and then if they want to feed something else look for something that matches her concerns that also matches your desires.


Buying a large breed formula does not mean you know anything about nutrition. She had large breed puppies so she bought a large breed formula, it was most likely just common sense to her. If she really knew about nutrition she wouldn't be feeding Purina in the first place. Why would she want to keep the dog on Purina if it wasn't about her nutritional concerns because her dogs to well on it? It isn't like she is selling the Purina to the OP. Those with serious breeding programs wouldn't suggest something bad, but they may not know about the dangers of the ingredients. Just because you are a breeder does not mean you know about nutrition, it should go hand in hand but the reality is that they don't. If they did, I highly doubt anyone would pick Purina as the best food for making puppies. She may have good intentions but there is no good reason to stay with Purina in my honest opinion. There are better foods out there that also have large breed formulas.


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## DaViking

Kibblelady said:


> Oh man Viking we have to disagree on this lol No way is Pedigree even close to Pro Plan, for many reasons


Hehe  I knew you wouldn't like that one.

I'll stand by it. I think ProPlan is on the same level as Pedigree. I'll throw Science Diet into the mix too. All PP formulas I can remember are way rice and wheat or rice and corn heavy. PP loves wheat. Meals are usually down the list and more often than not unnamed by-products. This is comparable to Pedigree and Science Diet and I'll buy a Waltham or Hills product before I'd pick up a Purina product. I rank Iams and Eukanuba ahead of these 3 and Royal Canin ahead of them all.


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## 1605

Kibblelady said:


> I am shaking my head at this. Of course the breeder knows about nutrition which is why she wanted the puppy on the *Large Breed* formula. She is obviously aware of the importance to bone and joint development in a large breed dog. Blindly suggesting this poster just switch without advising them of the unique needs of such a large breed puppy without suggestions about calorie levels, protein and fat percentages and the detrimental rates of growth that can come out of the wrong selection do the poster a disservice IMO  I don't think this was about forcing the owner to feed something etc it is about what can bring about the best outcome for their puppy and the breeder has faith in what she recommends. This IMO should not just be poo pooed without understanding her reasoning. If this poster were to just run out and by say Orijen it could potentially be a disaster  Their large breed puppy has 38% protein and 16% fat... and is concentrated on the calcium and phosphorous and not so much on calories...this is a different mind set from the breeder.
> 
> Nothing is simply a matter of a breeder not knowing something....those with serious breeding programs know what works for their dogs and would not suggest something "bad" for their puppy buyers  While many may not be thrilled with her recommendation do not just automatically think it was made without nutrition in mind. Product selection and nutrition are totally different topics.
> 
> My advice to the original poster is so consult with the breeder about their concerns and find out what her goal is in recommending the food she recommended and then if they want to feed something else look for something that matches her concerns that also matches your desires.





LilasMom said:


> Buying a large breed formula does not mean you know anything about nutrition. She had large breed puppies so she bought a large breed formula, it was most likely just common sense to her. If she really knew about nutrition she wouldn't be feeding Purina in the first place. Why would she want to keep the dog on Purina if it wasn't about her nutritional concerns because her dogs to well on it? It isn't like she is selling the Purina to the OP. Those with serious breeding programs wouldn't suggest something bad, but they may not know about the dangers of the ingredients. Just because you are a breeder does not mean you know about nutrition, it should go hand in hand but the reality is that they don't. If they did, I highly doubt anyone would pick Purina as the best food for making puppies. She may have good intentions but there is no good reason to stay with Purina in my honest opinion. There are better foods out there that also have large breed formulas.


Initially, I would tend to agree with LilasMom: "Large Breed breeder" does not automatically equate with knowledge on what other large breed dog foods are out there other than the one that h/s has been using. I don't think most breeders think that way: they recommend what they have been feeding, and haven't really researched other brands. There is also the consideration that with larger numbers of dogs, they literally may not be able to afford to upgrade to more premium brands. 

However, that being said, I also concur with Kibblelady that the OP should question the breeder as to why that particular food was chosen over other large breed formulas from other manufacturers.

FWIW,


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## Kibblelady

LilasMom said:


> Buying a large breed formula does not mean you know anything about nutrition. She had large breed puppies so she bought a large breed formula, it was most likely just common sense to her. If she really knew about nutrition she wouldn't be feeding Purina in the first place. Why would she want to keep the dog on Purina if it wasn't about her nutritional concerns because her dogs to well on it? It isn't like she is selling the Purina to the OP. Those with serious breeding programs wouldn't suggest something bad, but they may not know about the dangers of the ingredients. Just because you are a breeder does not mean you know about nutrition, it should go hand in hand but the reality is that they don't. If they did, I highly doubt anyone would pick Purina as the best food for making puppies. She may have good intentions but there is no good reason to stay with Purina in my honest opinion. There are better foods out there that also have large breed formulas.



Umm look I was a breeder and* YES* did select Purina Pro Plan for my bitch while in whelp due to the research I did about present nutrients compared to other foods on the market including ones that people here approve of, this was 8 years ago. Suggesting that a breeder is only feeding a large breed food to puppies because it says large breeds on it can be seriously inaccurate. You do not know this breeder, nor do I but I do know many breeders who feed this brand of food without problems who are very happy with the results and recommend it to their clients. This does not make them ignorant and people here on this forum better educated.... I will say again it is about results as well as economics with a breeder with many dogs. To insinuate above that someone like myself knew nothing about nutrition and therefore that is why I fed the Pro Plan is insulting Lilasmom... There is no "dangers" in the ingredients for crying out loud, I am sorry to say.

I most certainly at the time DID pick Pro Plan for "making puppies." "Better" in reference to brand is subjective based on the person in all reality. I looked for content and what nutrients were actually contained and balanced in 7 brands of pet foods and the Pro Plan Performance came out on top for my bitch in whelp. I certainly was not ignorant to what I was doing and the assumption that this person's breeder is ignorant or misinformed is only your opinion based on your preference for brands and not the breeder's thought process in what she selects.

Pro Plan Large Breed Puppy Formula

Chicken, brewers rice, corn gluten meal, whole grain corn, poultry by-product meal (natural source of glucosamine), whole grain wheat, animal fat preserved with mixed-tocopherols (form of Vitamin E), pea fiber, fish meal (natural source of glucosamine), dried egg product, fish oil, natural flavor, salt, potassium chloride, calcium phosphate, calcium carbonate, potassium citrate, L-Lysine monohydrochloride, dried colostrum, choline chloride, zinc sulfate, ferrous sulfate, Vitamin E supplement, manganese sulfate, niacin, Vitamin A supplement, copper sulfate, garlic oil, calcium pantothenate, pyridoxine hydrochloride, Vitamin B-12 supplement, thiamine mononitrate, riboflavin supplement, calcium iodate, Vitamin D-3 supplement, menadione sodium bisulfite complex (source of Vitamin K activity), folic acid, biotin, sodium selenite. 

There is **NO** proof of anything above being "dangerous" or "bad" it is all opinion and internet lore.


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## Kibblelady

DaViking said:


> Hehe  I knew you wouldn't like that one.
> 
> I'll stand by it. I think ProPlan is on the same level as Pedigree. I'll throw Science Diet into the mix too. All PP formulas I can remember are way rice and wheat or rice and corn heavy. PP loves wheat. Meals are usually down the list and more often than not unnamed by-products. This is comparable to Pedigree and Science Diet and I'll buy a Waltham or Hills product before I'd pick up a Purina product. I rank Iams and Eukanuba ahead of these 3 and Royal Canin ahead of them all.


See this gets into other things related to pet food production that I never see discussed such as fixed or open formulations.... fixed stays the same regardless of market price of ingredients, open will change ingredients based on market price of those ingredients. With an open formula you can never be sure as to what is going on in the food from batch to batch.

Tim look at these next to each other...

This is Pedigree Adult







































 GROUND WHOLE CORN, MEAT AND BONE MEAL, CORN GLUTEN MEAL, ANIMAL FAT (PRESERVED WITH BHA/CITRIC ACID), SOYBEAN MEAL, GROUND WHOLE WHEAT, BREWERS RICE, DRIED PLAIN BEET PULP, NATURAL FLAVOR, SALT, VEGETABLE OIL ([SOURCE OF LINOLEIC ACID] PRESERVED WITH BHA/BHT), POTASSIUM CHLORIDE, VITAMINS (CHOLINE CHLORIDE, a-TOCOPHEROL ACETATE [SOURCE OF VITAMIN E], NIACIN, BIOTIN, d-CALCIUM PANTOTHENATE, RIBOFLAVIN SUPPLEMENT [VITAMIN B2], PYRIDOXINE HYDROCHLORIDE, VITAMIN A SUPPLEMENT, VITAMIN B12 SUPPLEMENT, THIAMINE MONONITRATE [VITAMIN B1], VITAMIN D3 SUPPLEMENT) MINERALS (ZINC SULFATE, ZINC PROTEINATE, COPPER SULFATE, POTASSIUM IODIDE, COPPER PROTEINATE, MANGANESE PROTEINATE), ADDED FD&C COLORS (RED 40, YELLOW 5, BLUE 2)






































 335 calories per serving (8 oz measuring cup).

Crude Protein 
Min 21.0%

Crude Fat 
Min 10.0%

Crude Fiber 
Max 4.0%

Moisture 
Max 12.0%

Linoleic Acid (omega 6 Fatty Acid) 
Min 3%

Copper 
Min 10 mg/kg

Zinc 
Min 200 mg/kg

Vitamin E 
Min 300 IU/kg

Ascorbic Acid (Vit. C*) 
Min 70 Mg/kg



This is Pro Plan

Chicken, brewers rice, whole grain wheat, poultry by-product meal (natural source of glucosamine), corn gluten meal, whole grain corn, animal fat preserved with mixed-tocopherols (form of Vitamin E), corn bran, fish meal (natural source of glucosamine), animal digest, dried egg product, calcium phosphate, salt, potassium chloride, calcium carbonate, Vitamin E supplement, choline chloride, zinc sulfate, ferrous sulfate, L-ascorbyl-2-polyphosphate (source of Vitamin C), manganese sulfate, niacin, Vitamin A supplement, calcium pantothenate, thiamine mononitrate, copper sulfate, riboflavin supplement, Vitamin B-12 supplement, pyridoxine hydrochloride, garlic oil, folic acid, Vitamin D-3 supplement, calcium iodate, biotin, menadione sodium bisulfite complex (source of Vitamin K activity), sodium selenite. 

Crude Protein (Min)26.0 %Crude Fat (Min)16.0 %Crude Fiber (Max)3.0 %Moisture (Max)12.0 %Linoleic Acid (Min)1.4 %Calcium (Ca) (Min)1.0 %Phosphorus (P) (Min)0.8 %Selenium (Se) (Min)0.30 mg/kgVitamin A (Min)15,000 IU/kgVitamin E (Min)460 IU/kgAscorbic Acid* (Min)70 mg/kgGlucosamine* (Min)400 ppmGlutamine* (Min)1.0 %

<tbody>

</tbody>

Man are these two things so very different..... while the PP may not be the quality level in your opinion as other foods that is fine but it is not on the level of Pedigree...not even close  Simply looking at them shows this.

Not arguing  Just showing something....


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## Kibblelady

I just wanted to say I personally have never met a serious breeder that does not seriously think about what they are feeding their dogs as well as watch for the performance of the diet and results on their dogs and program...... this is such an important element to a kennel period.


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## SaharaNight Boxers

Just saying being a breeder means almost nothing, unless you are a responsible, knowledgable, and open to learning breeder. 

People who run puppy mills are technically breeders. Would I trust something they say or told me to do? Probably not because of who they are and their "philosophies". I hate to use that word, but I can't think of something better. Saying you were a breeder could mean anything. It could mean you bred your bitch to some random dog down the road. 

And I hate using the word breeder honestly. To me a breeder isn't just someone who breeds dogs. They love the breed, want to preserve the breed, better it, make it healthier, are fully committed to their dogs and breed, put the breed first, etc. I wish there was another word because "breeder" is far too vague. 

As far as this situation who knows where they got the dog from. Responsible breeder, BYB, puppy mill? 

Most field people feed Purina. It's pretty much a fact. Purina sponsors the trials and leads in field trials. If the winner of a trial you were at fed Purina wouldn't you want to try it? It must've helped their dog somehow.I see lots of show breeders who feed Eukaneuba, why because it's been around forever and sponsors the national championship. Again, if something sponsors it must be important to that area it seems. A lot feed Purina too. Not to mention lots of shoe sponsors send out free food to handlers, winners of the day, etc. What I really wonder is how much better those dogs would look on a food food. 

As far as that ProPlan, come on. Corn gluten meal is the lowest of corn meals. That's so grain heavy it's not even funny. Menadione, I bet the Vitamin E is soy. DaViking is right. All of that is on the same level. I really don't think it's a good reason just because you saw nutrition possibilities in it. And where in it? There are so many better kibbles for a dog to be whelped and raised on. Early nutrition is do important for the well being of the puppy. The first few months set up the rest of a dogs life. I've read personal stories of breeders switching what they feed in the first two months and during gestation determined how strong, healthy, and long lived their puppies were. Nutrition is major during pregnancy and whelping. Give the best you can and supplement, it's fair for the bitch that you got pregnant and you're now responsible for not only her life, but the life of her unborn puppies and they deserve the best.


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## SaharaNight Boxers

Sorry it turned ranty. The whole "I was a breeder" thing got me going.


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## SaharaNight Boxers

And at the OP...

I'd get off that food as soon as possible. Give your pup the best you can for his future. You could have the next #1 Bullmastiff in your house without even knowing it.


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## Unosmom

I agree with majority here, most breeders recommend it because Purina has been around for years and they tend to be stuck in their little box of recommending it to everyone because they don't know any better. Pro plan is made up mostly of corn, wheat and rice, not exactly biologically appropriate for an animal thats primarily a carnivore. 
The only thing to be aware of when it comes to large breed vs All life stage food is the calcium/phosphorus levels which are controlled to regulate proper growth and development. But as others said, there are tons of good quality foods on the market that make large breed puppy food including Fromm. 
Large Breed Puppy Gold dog food - Fromm Family Foods


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## DaViking

@kibblelady

I get what you are saying but don't see the big difference that would set it apart. Indeed they are different but none stand out as particularly better to me. PP uses oxides and sulfates, Pedigree uses proteinate versions of same for example, PP got wet chicken Pedigree do not, etc etc. The composition prior to fiber and flavoring is nothing to write home about compared to some of their peers. You probably have to feed a little more Pedigree but that's about it. At the end of the day the main macro nutrients in both brands (across all formulas) arn't that different imho.

edit;just to add: I know breeders who swear by both brands, I have nothing but respect for them and know they take their breeding very serious. I refuse to judge a breeder based on what she/he feeds; I've seen too much to be that dumb.


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## Kibblelady

SaharaNight Boxers said:


> Just saying being a breeder means almost nothing, unless you are a responsible, knowledgable, and open to learning breeder.
> 
> People who run puppy mills are technically breeders. Would I trust something they say or told me to do? Probably not because of who they are and their "philosophies". I hate to use that word, but I can't think of something better. Saying you were a breeder could mean anything. It could mean you bred your bitch to some random dog down the road.


I did write serious breeders....




> As far as this situation who knows where they got the dog from. Responsible breeder, BYB, puppy mill?


Yeah cause BYBers and puppy mills usually strongly recommend a higher priced food? But then again, no one asked to find out...



> What I really wonder is how much better those dogs would look on a food food.


These show dogs look terrible or "bad?" The field dogs look terrible or not so good? Do they fail to perform? Maybe, just maybe these fanciers use what they use because they are pleased with the results? Maybe?



> I really don't think it's a good reason just because you saw nutrition possibilities in it. And where in it? There are so many better kibbles for a dog to be whelped and raised on.


I am not going to explain why I chose it, I'm not interested in that discussion as it will mean nothing to you. Not a good reason because I saw the nutritional possibilities in it? Are you serious?? Isn't that the reason we all chose a product? Do you breed? Have you ever whelped or raised a litter? I whelped my bitch with a litter of 12 on PPP we lost one due to suffocation...the labor took 8 hours and my bitch had energy and whelped the entire litter as I was next to her to assist. All the puppies were over 15oz at birth a number of them were 17oz. No defects, all were vigorous, latched on on their own without help, quiet and healthy. 11 of them, 11 of them. Want photos? After whelping she was put on Blackwood 2000 for the kcals she needed to nurse such a litter. I do not need to wonder if I did the right thing, I know I did. As for my bitch she is 13 and sitting right next to me, she went through her pregnancy and whelp beautifully at age 5 and never lost her coat or looked ragged like many bitches do, I was complimented by 3 other breeders that saw her and wondered how I did that lol I would never treat my bitch "fair" or my puppies. There was no need to supplement her diet as it supported her fully. Thinking, or feeling, that I somehow am daft or was ignorant to have done what I did because you may not like PP is not based on anything but your personal preference. I based my decisions on nutritional and caloric content and apparently I chose well as demonstrated by the results I got. I do not feel PP is "perfect" as I usually find something in a product I do not like but it is checks and balances with all of my selections.

( I really am sorry if my posts today are coming off terse, I do not mean them to, I have a horrid headache and abscess in a tooth  I am also stressed with some personal things going on...but this is distracting me, I do not mean for my tone to be not so nice as usual so please forgive that.)


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## SaharaNight Boxers

Kibblelady said:


> I did write serious breeders....
> 
> 
> *I didn't see that post before I wrote mine.*
> 
> Yeah cause BYBers and puppy mills usually strongly recommend a higher priced food? But then again, no one asked to find out...
> 
> *
> I just rechecked and they got him from a responsible breeder, thank goodness. *
> 
> These show dogs look terrible or "bad?" The field dogs look terrible or not so good? Do they fail to perform? Maybe, just maybe these fanciers use what they use because they are pleased with the results? Maybe?
> 
> *They have duller coats, seems like less energy. I've seen one dog that was raised on Eukaneuba and she skips or hops her hips during gaiting every so often although hips aren't a problem in the line. And maybe it's because they haven't seen how much better their dogs could look on a better food.*
> 
> I am not going to explain why I chose it, I'm not interested in that discussion as it will mean nothing to you. Not a good reason because I saw the nutritional possibilities in it? Are you serious?? Isn't that the reason we all chose a product? Do you breed? Have you ever whelped or raised a litter? I whelped my bitch with a litter of 12 on PPP we lost one due to suffocation...the labor took 8 hours and my bitch had energy and whelped the entire litter as I was next to her to assist. All the puppies were over 15oz at birth a number of them were 17oz. No defects, all were vigorous, latched on on their own without help, quiet and healthy. 11 of them, 11 of them. Want photos? After whelping she was put on Blackwood 2000 for the kcals she needed to nurse such a litter. I do not need to wonder if I did the right thing, I know I did. As for my bitch she is 13 and sitting right next to me, she went through her pregnancy and whelp beautifully at age 5 and never lost her coat or looked ragged like many bitches do, I was complimented by 3 other breeders that saw her and wondered how I did that lol I would never treat my bitch "fair" or my puppies. There was no need to supplement her diet as it supported her fully. Thinking, or feeling, that I somehow am daft or was ignorant to have done what I did because you may not like PP is not based on anything but your personal preference. I based my decisions on nutritional and caloric content and apparently I chose well as demonstrated by the results I got. I do not feel PP is "perfect" as I usually find something in a product I do not like but it is checks and balances with all of my selections.
> 
> *I am serious. I have not whelped a litter number one because I own a male, and number two because I can't find a bitch I really like and would want as my foundation. Maybe Duke will get bred and she'll be produced, but until then I can't find one And instead of photos what I would really want to see is health testing results. Results for the dam, sire, and the puppies as they grew up. Health problems present themselves over the years, not when they're young. I never said you were ignorant or daft, everyone has their own way of thinking.*
> ( I really am sorry if my posts today are coming off terse, I do not mean them to, I have a horrid headache and abscess in a tooth  I am also stressed with some personal things going on...but this is distracting me, I do not mean for my tone to be not so nice as usual so please forgive that.)


Answers in bold.


----------



## KittyKat

Kibblelady said:


> These show dogs look terrible or "bad?" The field dogs look terrible or not so good? Do they fail to perform? Maybe, just maybe these fanciers use what they use because they are pleased with the results? Maybe?


Nothing to do with being pleased with results of food. If you ever go to a show someday you should watch these dogs get ready. The special shampoos to brighten coats, the chalking to make them seem whiter and so on... even with sighthounds they chalk up the white areas so they will stand out. The food doesn't play a role here as they use every trick in the book to fix their dogs coats. Plenty of these dogs come in looking dull - it's only through the primping process that they get that shiny coat. 

Me, I just brought my dog in and went into the ring. Piper got her Ch. au natural. 

Plenty of breeders are approached by companies like Eukanuba, Royal Canin, Purina etc. and are offered sweet deals in exchange for recommending their product. 

I won't step into field issues as that would get me on the topic of raw.


----------



## DaViking

SaharaNight Boxers said:


> Answers in bold.





> Maybe Duke will get bred and she'll be produced


Didn't Duke develop mange and other infections/issues you thought was food related? Mange can develop when the immune system is not functioning properly. In some lines it's a huge problem. You shouldn't breed dogs with suspected immune issues imho.


----------



## SaharaNight Boxers

DaViking said:


> Didn't Duke develop mange and other infections/issues you thought was food related? Mange can develop when the immune system is not functioning properly. In some lines it's a huge problem. You shouldn't breed dogs with suspected immune issues imho.


We never got it technically diagnosed as mange so we weren't completely sure what it was. It wasn't generalized though. I wouldn't breed if it was. Boxers are more prone to it as they have more skin problems in the breed. It may have even just been allergy related as it happened in the spring. Duke's lines were incredibly healthy though, most lived into their 12s without health problems which isn't common at all so it's not something I'm worried about. His line was some of the healthiest in the country. Of course, it would be fully disclosed to anyone that would want to breed to him. It started healing up as soon as we put him on raw though and it turns out others had hair loss problems with Blue...wasnt happy to find that out. 

I completely understand what you mean though. I wouldn't breed a dog that had major immuno problems or that was immune compromised. That's asking for problems. And then everything still depends on all his health testing results.


----------



## Cur

I appreciate the discourse, I really do. Thank you all. 

I was purposely vague about the breeder because I didn't want to "out" them in peoples minds as someones who has less than anything but the best in mind for their pups. They are NOT a BYB or a puppymill. They are very serious about the breed, and making sure their dogs are taken care of and "advancing the breed". They are an AKC Breeder of Merit for bullmastiffs, and dogs from their kennels, and bloodlines are among the tops in show wins in the past few years. For whatever that's worth. 

That's sort of what prompted me to post. I thought from my research, that "I could do better" for my little guy.


----------



## Cur

And because everyone loves puppies!










And because Duke is awesome looking fawn... Remy the white boxer says "hello!"










Together


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## SaharaNight Boxers

Cur said:


> I appreciate the discourse, I really do. Thank you all.
> 
> I was purposely vague about the breeder because I didn't want to "out" them in peoples minds as someones who has less than anything but the best in mind for their pups. They are NOT a BYB or a puppymill. They are very serious about the breed, and making sure their dogs are taken care of and "advancing the breed". They are an AKC Breeder of Merit for bullmastiffs, and dogs from their kennels, and bloodlines are among the tops in show wins in the past few years. For whatever that's worth.
> 
> That's sort of what prompted me to post. I thought from my research, that "I could do better" for my little guy.


You definitely have a nice boy there then. I definitely think that's worth something to be at the top of your breed. Congrats for getting such a nice pup!


----------



## Cur

I made a post with a pic of him (and my boxer, Remy) but I guess it's in the moderation queue. Give your wiggly kidney bean a belly scratch from me!


----------



## magicre

Kibblelady said:


> Umm look I was a breeder and* YES* did select Purina Pro Plan for my bitch while in whelp due to the research I did about present nutrients compared to other foods on the market including ones that people here approve of, this was 8 years ago. Suggesting that a breeder is only feeding a large breed food to puppies because it says large breeds on it can be seriously inaccurate. You do not know this breeder, nor do I but I do know many breeders who feed this brand of food without problems who are very happy with the results and recommend it to their clients. This does not make them ignorant and people here on this forum better educated.... I will say again it is about results as well as economics with a breeder with many dogs. To insinuate above that someone like myself knew nothing about nutrition and therefore that is why I fed the Pro Plan is insulting Lilasmom... There is no "dangers" in the ingredients for crying out loud, I am sorry to say.
> 
> I most certainly at the time DID pick Pro Plan for "making puppies." "Better" in reference to brand is subjective based on the person in all reality. I looked for content and what nutrients were actually contained and balanced in 7 brands of pet foods and the Pro Plan Performance came out on top for my bitch in whelp. I certainly was not ignorant to what I was doing and the assumption that this person's breeder is ignorant or misinformed is only your opinion based on your preference for brands and not the breeder's thought process in what she selects.
> 
> Pro Plan Large Breed Puppy Formula
> 
> Chicken, brewers rice, corn gluten meal, whole grain corn, poultry by-product meal (natural source of glucosamine), whole grain wheat, animal fat preserved with mixed-tocopherols (form of Vitamin E), pea fiber, fish meal (natural source of glucosamine), dried egg product, fish oil, natural flavor, salt, potassium chloride, calcium phosphate, calcium carbonate, potassium citrate, L-Lysine monohydrochloride, dried colostrum, choline chloride, zinc sulfate, ferrous sulfate, Vitamin E supplement, manganese sulfate, niacin, Vitamin A supplement, copper sulfate, garlic oil, calcium pantothenate, pyridoxine hydrochloride, Vitamin B-12 supplement, thiamine mononitrate, riboflavin supplement, calcium iodate, Vitamin D-3 supplement, *menadione sodium bisulfite* complex (source of Vitamin K activity), folic acid, biotin, sodium selenite.
> 
> There is **NO** proof of anything above being "dangerous" or "bad" it is all opinion and internet lore.


my answer in bold.

there is plenty of reason to avoid this ingredient as it raises liver enzymes....fed for a long enough period of time, it can raise them to dangerous levels.

nutro ended up eliminating this particular ingredient for that reason....

and, since all five of my dogs had higher than explainable liver enzymes, i would say it's not internet lore or myth.

not everything on the internet is myth or lore.


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## SaharaNight Boxers

Cur said:


> I made a post with a pic of him (and my boxer, Remy) but I guess it's in the moderation queue. Give your wiggly kidney bean a belly scratch from me!


Gotta love the wiggly kidney bean! Give your boy one too!


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## LilasMom

magicre said:


> my answer in bold.
> 
> there is plenty of reason to avoid this ingredient as it raises liver enzymes....fed for a long enough period of time, it can raise them to dangerous levels.
> 
> nutro ended up eliminating this particular ingredient for that reason....
> 
> and, since all five of my dogs had higher than explainable liver enzymes, i would say it's not internet lore or myth.
> 
> not everything on the internet is myth or lore.


I agree. And even if it was myth, why would you take the chance? Better safe than sorry. 

Kibblelady, I was not trying to insult you, but it would be irresponsible for someone to think a breeder knows about nutrition just because they breed. I never said all breeders are ignorant or have little knowledge of nutrition. But I have to disagree with you, menadione and animal digest are dangerous. Menadione is a chemical that has been linked to liver problems (even if myth, why take chance?) and animal digest, well, who knows what is going in to your dogs body. Natural flavor? Made of what? Most of the ingredients aren't great, but some ARE bad. There ARE much better foods, and that isn't subjective. There is no way purina is better than a high quality dog food without chemicals and unknown ingredients. I actually don't have a preference for brands but I do have a preference for foods without questionable ingredients. Again, even if it was myth, I would never risk putting those ingredients into my dogs body, especially when there are other options. And no offense to breeders, but if they are choosing low quality foods because they are on a budget, they should not be breeding.


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## tem_sat

Kibblelady said:


> There is **NO** proof of anything above being "dangerous" or "bad" it is all opinion and internet lore.


It might help if you reconsider Purina for at least ethical reasons, as they are the maker of Waggin' Train dog treats. I wouldn't support that company if they made the last remaining bag of kibble on earth.


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## DaViking

There is no need to supplement with vitamin k3 (menadione) and AAFCO (NRC) do not have any dietary vitamin k requirement for dogs
Nutrient Requirements of Dogs, Revised 1985
Merck Veterinary Manual

Vitamin K is present in various greens. With today's production methods more of the natural occurring vitamin k might be preserved. I know it used to be an issue since vitamin k is not very tolerant to processing. I need to research that more. I know I saw a few manufacturers listing Vit K in their laboratory assays without supplementing with K3 but can't remember who at the moment.

You can build arguments for menadione too. This is a good reply from Weruva regarding the use of K3. It's related to their cat products but the science and the arguments would be the same for dogs.
Vitamin K Substances and Animal Feed

Personally I have never seen anywhere any scientific reasoning for why a dog food formula *must* contain menadione. The only theory I have is that some formulations will actually lead to poor production of fibrin needed for blood clot if K3 is not present, and their nutritionists know that. Pure speculation on my part.

Animal digest dangerous? That's a stretch. Animal digest is used as a flavoring if I'm not wrong.


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## DaViking

LilasMom said:


> And no offense to breeders, but if they are choosing low quality foods because they are on a budget, they should not be breeding.


I respectfully disagree, a lot  There are thousands and thousands of ppl who should never be allowed to breed dogs. That they have money to pay for pallets of super premium food is no guarantee for a good breeder, sometimes it's the opposite. At some point the elitist views should end. You are absolutely not an irresponsible breeder if you choose to feed something like Kirkland, ProPlan, Science Diet, Iams or Pedigree for that matter.


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## LilasMom

DaViking said:


> I respectfully disagree, a lot  There are thousands and thousands of ppl who should never be allowed to breed dogs. That they have money to pay for pallets of super premium food is no guarantee for a good breeder, sometimes it's the opposite. *At some point the elitist views should end. You are absolutely not an irresponsible breeder if you choose to feed something like Kirkland, ProPlan, Science Diet, Iams or Pedigree for that matter.*


Well I guess we can agree to disagree lol. I think if you choose to feed these foods knowing their ingredients, it is irresponsible, just as it would be irresponsible for a pregnant woman to eat things like junk food everyday. I never said just because someone has a lot of money they have a right to breed dogs, but if you are on a budget and having to feed low quality food you should not be breeding. Breeding can cost a LOT of money, and if they can't afford a high quality food than how can they afford all the genetic and health testing done? What money will they use just incase something goes wrong? It isn't being elitist, it is being realistic. Why should someone breed if they can't give their dogs a great start at life? I don't believe that someone who breeds and feeds things like Iams or pedigree is being responsible. If they can't afford anything else, they shouldn't be breeding. It is harsh, but we are talking about bringing lives into the world, lives that should not be raised on low quality foods with chemicals, unknown meat sources, and lots of grains. High quality food does NOT equal a good breeder. BUT, I truly believe a great breeder who knew about nutrition and dog health would not feed any of these brands. I do think it is irresponsible to feed these foods to breeding animals. Their lives are our responsibility because we are choosing to bring them into the world. They deserve the best possible start just like any infant, animal or human. We owe them that.

Animal digest is dangerous because no one knows what it is, it could be cows or chickens, or worse, euthanized animals. I think it is dangerous to not know what one is giving to their dog. I would rather eat my dogs raw dinner than feed a food with menadione, chemicals, food colorings, or unknown ingredients.


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## SaharaNight Boxers

You have to remember almost everyone supplements though too. 

I'd rather a good breeder who breeds true quality from healthy lines feed crap, than them not breed at all. I do understand what you're saying though. Most show dogs have some sort of insurance with them too for any health problems that might arise. And most of the time it's what they're used to versus it being good or bad quality. I do totally agree with Lila'sMom though as I'm trying to find a raw breeder that breeds what I want. Some things you just have to sacrifice. I'd rather they feed a crappier food and supplement, than not health test. And just do you know a lot seem to supplement out the wazoo from what I've seen. 

And it's not responsible breeding CAN cost a lot of money, it DOES cost a lot of money.


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## magicre

> At some point the elitist views should end


i think, and just sayin', maybe it's time to retire the word 'elitist'.

that i might choose a different way of feeding or disagree about an ingredient that i feel does not belong in a dog's diet does not make me an elitist.

picky, yes. 

and i am not an elitist because i'd like the breeder of my future dog to be concerned about the food fed to the mother of the puppies....

we are what we eat. i would expect that breeder to be as knowledgeable about food as the breeder is knowledgeable about the temperament, health and structure of the animals bred.


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## Liz

I have never been called "elistist' before. i have to get used to that one. Crazy, difficult, stubborn, picky and a pain the a** I have been called just to name a few. We have always strived to improve what our dogs are fed as i learned more and more about raising the standard of their health. I keep studying, learning and listening to those with way more experience than me. I have some really good lines in our area to breed to, they are not fed the way I want the sire of my girl's pups to be fed, and are in my view over vaccinated and given too many chemical interventions. I have spent a year looking for the right sire for my Cherri. We will be doing AI from Canada and it won't be cheap and people will think I am crazy for not using the available studs in my area. That doesn't matter because we have a waiting list of people wanting service dogs and their health is of the utmost importance. We breed to the best we can find according to standard, working ability, trainability, and longevity and a big part of that for me is raw fed, non vaccinated, no chemical treatments.


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## hund

Liz said:


> I have never been called "elistist' before. i have to get used to that one. Crazy, difficult, stubborn, picky and a pain the a** I have been called just to name a few. We have always strived to improve what our dogs are fed as i learned more and more about raising the standard of their health. I keep studying, learning and listening to those with way more experience than me. I have some really good lines in our area to breed to, they are not fed the way I want the sire of my girl's pups to be fed, and are in my view over vaccinated and given too many chemical interventions. I have spent a year looking for the right sire for my Cherri. We will be doing AI from Canada and it won't be cheap and people will think I am crazy for not using the available studs in my area. That doesn't matter because we have a waiting list of people wanting service dogs and their health is of the utmost importance. We breed to the best we can find according to standard, working ability, trainability, and longevity and a big part of that for me is raw fed, non vaccinated, no chemical treatments.


You don't vaccinate? That isn't particularly safe for not only your dogs but for other peoples dogs... I understand the want to not pump toxins into your dog, but the risks of illness from not vaccinating far outweigh the benefits IMO. I'm not trying to come across as rude but.... that seems very extremist.
I'm passionate on this topic as my husband lost a dog as a child to parvo. This dog died an agonizing death when my husband was 12 years old, he was in love with his American Pit Bull Terrier named Zed. The puppy pooped blood until he finally died in my husband's bedroom....
Not vaccinating at least minimally is reckless IMHO.


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## Liz

Have not vaccinated in 9 years and have not had parvo, distemper or anything actually since. While following strict vaccination guidlines had two bouts or parvo, lost one whole litter under veterinary care on their third shot having never left home and the second time we lost all but one pup also having had their third in the series of shots and all under veterinary care. Reckless would be something done without research, study and treatment options available. My not vaccinating does not affect vaccinated dogs but vaccinated dogs shedding the vaccines they have just gotten is detrimental to my dogs. If you vaccinate and are happy with it you should be very confident that your dogs will not succumb to disease and it should be of no concern whether I vaccinate mine or not.  No offense taken and none intended. i do understand parvo, it is a man made disease that just keeps mutating and is getting more and more difficult to treat. I have had 6 calls this year from people who want at home treatment for vaccinated pups who have acquired parvo and cannot afford the $1500 or more for veterinary care. It is very sad.


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## hund

Liz said:


> Have not vaccinated in 9 years and have not had parvo, distemper or anything actually since. While following strict vaccination guidlines had two bouts or parvo, lost one whole litter under veterinary care on their third shot having never left home and the second time we lost all but one pup also having had their third in the series of shots and all under veterinary care. Reckless would be something done without research, study and treatment options available. My not vaccinating does not affect vaccinated dogs but vaccinated dogs shedding the vaccines they have just gotten is detrimental to my dogs. If you vaccinate and are happy with it you should be very confident that your dogs will not succumb to disease and it should be of no concern whether I vaccinate mine or not.  No offense taken and none intended. i do understand parvo, it is a man made disease that just keeps mutating and is getting more and more difficult to treat. I have had 6 calls this year from people who want at home treatment for vaccinated pups who have acquired parvo and cannot afford the $1500 or more for veterinary care. It is very sad.


Did you take the puppies to a clinic? That to me would mean that the clinic didn't take the proper time/effort to clean up between patients, not that the puppies got parvo from the vaccine. 
What about rabies? Have you ever seen a person with rabies? Unless you live in a fish bowl, there is always a chance that your dogs could get bit by an infected animal and then your entire kennel would be done for...


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## Liz

Not a clinic a proper vet and it has of course been many years and the litters were three years apart. I didn't say they got it "from" the vaccine but rather vaccinating does not guarantee immunity. Yes, I guess we live in a "fish bowl' we show, train, and my dogs are mascots for many of our community activities. they are never unsupervised and since bats are the biggest carriers of rabies around here we avoid playing with them. We have had collies and shelties for over 20 years. My mentors have been vaccine free for over 25 years. Thank you for your concern though.


----------



## hund

Liz said:


> Not a clinic a proper vet and it has of course been many years and the litters were three years apart. I didn't say they got it "from" the vaccine but rather vaccinating does not guarantee immunity. Yes, I guess we live in a "fish bowl' we show, train, and my dogs are mascots for many of our community activities. they are never unsupervised and since bats are the biggest carriers of rabies around here we avoid playing with them. We have had collies and shelties for over 20 years. My mentors have been vaccine free for over 25 years. Thank you for your concern though.


I'm not only concerned for your dogs but for the people and other dogs around your unvaccinated dogs... 
Ah well. Obviously people have tried to persuade you to vaccinate without success and I'm not going to try.
To people possibly reading this post on this thread>> always vaccinate. Talk to your vet (possible holistic vet) about a personalized vaccination regime or titers but DEFINITELY VACCINATE YOUR PETS. It is reckless not to.
OP-- sorry for the hijack.


----------



## Sprocket

hund said:


> I'm not only concerned for your dogs but for the people and other dogs around your unvaccinated dogs...
> Ah well. Obviously people have tried to persuade you to vaccinate without success and I'm not going to try.
> To people possibly reading this post on this thread>> always vaccinate. Talk to your vet (possible holistic vet) about a personalized vaccination regime or titers but DEFINITELY VACCINATE YOUR PETS. It is reckless not to.
> OP-- sorry for the hijack.


To further educate myself and others, would you please elaborate on WHY unvaccinated pets are a threat?

With facts of course. Please keep in mind that vaccination does not promise immunity.


----------



## DaViking

magicre said:


> and i am not an elitist because i'd like the breeder of my future dog to be concerned about the food fed to the mother of the puppies....


No one said you or anyone else are elitist for caring about what knowledge of dogs your breeder got, including nutrition. It's the extremes I am addressing and calling breeders who feed for example ProPlan irresponsible breeders comes as a result of an extremist point of view.



magicre said:


> we are what we eat. i would expect that breeder to be as knowledgeable about food as the breeder is knowledgeable about the temperament, health and structure of the animals bred.


No actually you are what you digest and synthesise. Dietary vegans are experts at this.


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## Liz

Oh DaViking, i was just getting comfortable with elitist. LOL Actually to a point I do agree. We are all in a different place as far as feeding, veterinary care, even understanding genetics. I was blessed to have parents who let me explore my passions with dogs so have been do this a long time. I don't think people who feed what I think is a really low quality kibble are irresponsible just maybe they haven't learned enough or been mentored well enough but that also doesn't mean their dogs would be included in my breeding program as I am looking for something beyond looks. I do agree looking down on them is not going to help them change or improve and there is room for improvement in every breeding program. 

I have enjoyed this discussion - a bit enlightening as i really just worry about my dogs and let others do what they will do.


----------



## DaViking

Liz said:


> Oh DaViking, i was just getting comfortable with elitist. LOL Actually to a point I do agree. We are all in a different place as far as feeding, veterinary care, even understanding genetics. I was blessed to have parents who let me explore my passions with dogs so have been do this a long time. I don't think people who feed what I think is a really low quality kibble are irresponsible just maybe they haven't learned enough or been mentored well enough but that also doesn't mean their dogs would be included in my breeding program as I am looking for something beyond looks. I do agree looking down on them is not going to help them change or improve and there is room for improvement in every breeding program.
> 
> I have enjoyed this discussion - a bit enlightening as i really just worry about my dogs and let others do what they will do.


Hehe, changed it up due to popular demand :smile: It actually fits better.

Anyways, the huge majority of breeders who feed lesser quality foods, according to some here, would probably take issue with use of the words "knowledge" or "learned" here. I'd think one or two would like to "school" you too you know :smile:


----------



## Scarlett_O'

Liz said:


> I have never been called "elistist' before. i have to get used to that one. Crazy, difficult, stubborn, picky and a pain the a** I have been called just to name a few. We have always strived to improve what our dogs are fed as i learned more and more about raising the standard of their health. I keep studying, learning and listening to those with way more experience than me. I have some really good lines in our area to breed to, they are not fed the way I want the sire of my girl's pups to be fed, and are in my view over vaccinated and given too many chemical interventions. I have spent a year looking for the right sire for my Cherri. We will be doing AI from Canada and it won't be cheap and people will think I am crazy for not using the available studs in my area. That doesn't matter because we have a waiting list of people wanting service dogs and their health is of the utmost importance. We breed to the best we can find according to standard, working ability, trainability, and longevity and a big part of that for me is raw fed, non vaccinated, no chemical treatments.


GAWD...I can NOT wait!!!:happy:

Although, I DO want my own Dom and Jesse wants his own Dixie....so we might end up waiting till you either breed to Panda again or Dixie is ready!! But PUPPIES....that is what I care abound!!!:biggrin1:


----------



## SaharaNight Boxers

hund said:


> I'm not only concerned for your dogs but for the people and other dogs around your unvaccinated dogs...
> Ah well. Obviously people have tried to persuade you to vaccinate without success and I'm not going to try.
> To people possibly reading this post on this thread>> always vaccinate. Talk to your vet (possible holistic vet) about a personalized vaccination regime or titers but DEFINITELY VACCINATE YOUR PETS. It is reckless not to.
> OP-- sorry for the hijack.


It's definitively not reckless. Ever heard of vaccinosis? Look up how many many dogs have died from having reactions to vaccines. Duke got all his puppy shots, but I'm probably not going to do that with my future dogs. You can't just come one here and say its reckless. Hav you ever looked at holostic approaches? Herd immunity? Anything regarding not vaccinating? 

And just to say that I don't believe vaccines really work. Duke got his bordatella, then got kennel cough. It was a giant waste to me. If you ever read what's inside vaccines and all the side effects you'd see why some don't vaccinate. 

Learn about something before you go and criticize it.


----------



## Liz

DaViking, I am sure they would. I have been schooled a plenty.  I guess it just matters what direction you take. I have a very good friend over about 17 years who breeds and it is a bone of contention that I will not use her studs and will not allow my males to be used by her. She and I just have different goals and at this point neither of us will give on issues we feel are important. I don't think that should end a friendship or conversation. I can appreciate her dogs are lovely but I also see some behaviors we have irradicated in our program through nutrition and natural rearing. I am still her friend and as with many other breeders and handlers I am friends with just agree to disagree. From children to religion to dogs I am on the minority side - but that is fine because I like it there.


----------



## DaViking

Liz said:


> DaViking, I am sure they would. I have been schooled a plenty.  I guess it just matters what direction you take. I have a very good friend over about 17 years who breeds and it is a bone of contention that I will not use her studs and will not allow my males to be used by her. She and I just have different goals and at this point neither of us will give on issues we feel are important. I don't think that should end a friendship or conversation. I can appreciate her dogs are lovely but I also see some behaviors we have irradicated in our program through nutrition and natural rearing. I am still her friend and as with many other breeders and handlers I am friends with just agree to disagree. From children to religion to dogs I am on the minority side - but that is fine because I like it there.


And I am sure she got her opinions but see no point in forcing any issues either. I think that's how it's supposed to work when you appreciate a friendship. The only thing is that those who represent the extremist views shouldn't be too touchy or surprised when the majority question opinions and views made in public.

Actually, to get back somewhat on topic, the big majority of knowledgeable and good breeders I know feed what many would call a mid level formula, and yes cost is part of the picture. All these breeders do it on a professional basis and are very knowledgeable about everything dog and of course breed specific issues. There are some exceptions but few full time professional breeders feed an ultra premium food like Orijen, Evo or similar. Breeders who feed these foods are usually smaller occasional breeders and their general and breed specific knowledge are not always on par with bigger professional breeders who have been around for a long time. Before the smaller breeders start to bash me, I do recognize that smaller "home" breeders can be highly educated and devoted too.


----------



## naturalfeddogs

hund said:


> I'm not only concerned for your dogs but for the people and other dogs around your unvaccinated dogs...
> Ah well. Obviously people have tried to persuade you to vaccinate without success and I'm not going to try.
> To people possibly reading this post on this thread>> always vaccinate. Talk to your vet (possible holistic vet) about a personalized vaccination regime or titers but DEFINITELY VACCINATE YOUR PETS. It is reckless not to.
> OP-- sorry for the hijack.


If I was to buy a pup from Liz, or a breeder with her practices, I wouldn't vaccinate either. All of mine had rounds of vaccs. as puppies, but only because they didn't come from raw fed naturally reared breeders. Since giving mine puppy vaccines they never have and never will have another. Naturally reared pups tend to have higher immunity than others.


----------



## magicre

as i will most likely be getting a dog from liz, it behooved me to look at things differently than i ever had before.

until i started talking to breeders and getting myself educated and not just through liz.....i never realised what goes into a breeding program other than a meeting b and producing c,d,e,f, etc...

now i certainly don't know enough and never will, i imagine....but i do think i am comfortable knowing:

a. nutrition is important to me. what is fed to the mommy/daddy and generations before
b. vaccinations. the more i read, the more i realise that vaccines are not a direction i want to go.

i realise everyone is different and many have different needs for their dogs....

and i can appreciate those different views....

i hope that anyone considering the purchase of a puppy does their research and is comfortable with the food fed, the vaccines given, the home environment, the testing, and all that which goes into a breeding program....


----------



## Liz

Well put Re. I do not believe it is about condemning anyone. Educating yourself is critical as you should be 100% happy with everything to do with your pup. 10 - 15 years or more is a long commitment when you are not 100% behind the ethics and practices of the breeder your purchase your pup from. 

Choose well from someone you can talk to and who will talk and explain the reasoning behind decision made to you. I know I am passionate about my practices/my dogs and expect whoever wants one of my puppies to be the same. If you don't care much you won't be walking away with one of my babies.  Re, you will be getting one of my babies and we will look into service issues.  Only the best will do.


----------



## hund

naturalfeddogs said:


> If I was to buy a pup from Liz, or a breeder with her practices, I wouldn't vaccinate either. All of mine had rounds of vaccs. as puppies, but only because they didn't come from raw fed naturally reared breeders. Since giving mine puppy vaccines they never have and never will have another. Naturally reared pups tend to have higher immunity than others.


I would like to know where you found the study stating that naturally reared dogs have higher immunity? 
I'm sure if any vets were to read this would swoon.... it's ridiculous. 

Here's a little story for ya'll... my grandma and grandpa were a part of a religion that stated that they could NOT immunize and had to eat natural. Well they lived off of the land and lived as "natural" as one can live. My Aunty ended up getting diphtheria and dying at age 15. My uncle almost died as well and he was about 4 at the time. Someone's life was ended because they thought living "naturally" could cure all things. 
Vaccinating isn't the greatest thing but neither is dying of the diseases they protect against. The lesser of two evils. 
I really hate the extremist view point that dogs should not be vaccinated. Fine of your entire kennel dies of parvo, that's not my problem. but if it gets rabies then it certainly is, as this is a zoonotic disease. I don't know what else to call it but stupid. I'm sorry but that is me being direct and honest. 
If you dont wish to vaccinate then keep your dog away from the genera public. *shudders*


----------



## SaharaNight Boxers

hund said:


> I would like to know where you found the study stating that naturally reared dogs have higher immunity?
> I'm sure if any vets were to read this would swoon.... it's ridiculous.
> 
> Here's a little story for ya'll... my grandma and grandpa were a part of a religion that stated that they could NOT immunize and had to eat natural. Well they lived off of the land and lived as "natural" as one can live. My Aunty ended up getting diphtheria and dying at age 15. My uncle almost died as well and he was about 4 at the time. Someone's life was ended because they thought living "naturally" could cure all things.
> Vaccinating isn't the greatest thing but neither is dying of the diseases they protect against. The lesser of two evils.
> I really hate the extremist view point that dogs should not be vaccinated. Fine of your entire kennel dies of parvo, that's not my problem. but if it gets rabies then it certainly is, as this is a zoonotic disease. I don't know what else to call it but stupid. I'm sorry but that is me being direct and honest.
> If you dont wish to vaccinate then keep your dog away from the genera public. *shudders*


Umm dogs are very different than people. And my personal story. Got a flu vaccine envy year until last year. Every year I got the vaccine I got sick. This year nothing.

You'll find that most breeders fon't fully vaccinate against everything because they know the risks and side effects better than most.


----------



## hund

Liz said:


> Well put Re. I do not believe it is about condemning anyone. Educating yourself is critical as you should be 100% happy with everything to do with your pup. 10 - 15 years or more is a long commitment when you are not 100% behind the ethics and practices of the breeder your purchase your pup from.
> 
> Choose well from someone you can talk to and who will talk and explain the reasoning behind decision made to you. I know I am passionate about my practices/my dogs and expect whoever wants one of my puppies to be the same. If you don't care much you won't be walking away with one of my babies.  Re, you will be getting one of my babies and we will look into service issues.  Only the best will do.


I wouldn't want one of your "babies" if I couldn't have the animal vaccinated. I think plenty of people would agree with me on that. It's not worth the risk to my family.


----------



## 1605

Sprocket said:


> To further educate myself and others, would you please elaborate on WHY unvaccinated pets are a threat?
> 
> With facts of course. Please keep in mind that vaccination does not promise immunity.


How about taking the vaccination discussion to PMs or to another thread in the appropriate section?

To any Mods reading this thread: can you please pull out these posts & put them elsewhere? 

Thanks,


----------



## hund

SaharaNight Boxers said:


> Umm dogs are very different than people. And my personal stories. Got a flu vaccine envy year until last year. Every year I got the vaccine I got sick. This year nothing.


There are vaccines that tend to do that. The flu vaccine is one of them. 
I have fostered a LOT and I mean a LOT of dogs over my lifespan and I have vaccinated every SINGLE ONE OF THEM. Not one of them has every gotten sick from the vaccine. Not one. 
Long term dogs that I have vaccinated have lived long, healthy lives. 
Dogs dying or becoming very sick from vaccines is a rarity and not the general rule.


----------



## hund

SubMariner said:


> How about taking the vaccination discussion to PMs or to another thread in the appropriate section?
> 
> Thanks,


Well if someone could split off this thread I would love to argue it further but I don't have the power to do that. Where's the moderator?


----------



## hund

Sprocket said:


> To further educate myself and others, would you please elaborate on WHY unvaccinated pets are a threat?
> 
> With facts of course. Please keep in mind that vaccination does not promise immunity.


Well show me that dogs vaccinated against rabies have the same likelihood of becoming infected with rabies. I don't care if it lessens the chance by 10%, it is still less then it was before.


----------



## SaharaNight Boxers

hund said:


> Well show me that dogs vaccinated against rabies have the same likelihood of becoming infected with rabies. I don't care if it lessens the chance by 10%, it is still less then it was before.


She asked that you do that.


----------



## hund

SaharaNight Boxers said:


> She asked that you do that.


Take your hand and firmly slap it against your forehead, jk but on a serious note. 
If a dog gets rabies and in some way their saliva/blood gets into your blood stream-- you are then infected with rabies.
Factual enough?


----------



## Sprocket

hund said:


> Well show me that dogs vaccinated against rabies have the same likelihood of becoming infected with rabies. I don't care if it lessens the chance by 10%, it is still less then it was before.


I am not the one stating these "facts" about unvaccinated dogs being a threat (that is you). I am asking you to show your research to back up your posts. I have nothing to back up because I am still on the fence about it all. :smile:


----------



## SaharaNight Boxers

hund said:


> Take your hand and firmly slap it against your forehead, jk but on a serious note.
> If a dog gets rabies and in some way their saliva/blood gets into your blood stream-- you are then infected with rabies.
> Factual enough?


I don't know can you prove that? What if an immunity is already built up?


----------



## Sprocket

hund said:


> Take your hand and firmly slap it against your forehead, jk but on a serious note.
> If a dog gets rabies and in some way their saliva/blood gets into your blood stream-- you are then infected with rabies.
> Factual enough?


Vaccinations don't guarantee immunity so therefore every dog is at the same risk. What about a natural immunity from generations of vaccinating.


What about the rest of the vaccines?


----------



## hund

Here's a thread from Pit Bull Chat Forum - Home
Rabies, I need to rant.
We can carry this on in the health section titled- vaccination??
Sprocket I believe you are a member of pitbullchat.com. Maybe you should tell them you beliefs lol.


----------



## SaharaNight Boxers

hund said:


> Here's a thread from Pit Bull Chat Forum - Home
> Rabies, I need to rant.
> We can carry this on in the health section titled- vaccination??
> Sprocket I believe you are a member of pitbullchat.com. Maybe you should tell them you beliefs lol.


And she was prejudiced because she had to get shots. How many people do you think didn't answer because they knew it would cause chaos or they'd be shot down? How many just had their comments removed by mods?


----------



## Sprocket

hund said:


> Here's a thread from Pit Bull Chat Forum - Home
> Rabies, I need to rant.
> We can carry this on in the health section titled- vaccination??
> Sprocket I believe you are a member of pitbullchat.com. Maybe you should tell them you beliefs lol.


Yes I am a member. Not sure why that is relevant?

Pitbullchat is a terrible forum. Why would I subject myself to that abuse? :rofl:


----------



## hund

Sprocket said:


> Yes I am a member. Not sure why that is relevant?
> 
> Pitbullchat is a terrible forum. Why would I subject myself to that abuse? :rofl:


They are blunt and direct. Something the world apparently needs right now. 
What I meant by sharing your views on Pitbull chat is that most people tend to change their view points when the majority does. I'm not about to follow the majority just because there is a new fad out there. 
I've seen dogs with distemper, rabies and parvo. If youve never seen it, don't talk about it. 
Sahara- of course she was biased. You would be too if you had to go through all of that bs. THATS THE POINT. If you have ever actually seen animals go through this because their owners were negligent and didn't vaccinate, then you would change your mind REAL quick.


----------



## SaharaNight Boxers

hund said:


> They are blunt and direct. Something the world apparently needs right now.
> What I meant by sharing your views on Pitbull chat is that most people tend to change their view points when the majority does. I'm not about to follow the majority just because there is a new fad out there.
> I've seen dogs with distemper, rabies and parvo. If youve never seen it, don't talk about it.
> Sahara- of course she was biased. You would be too if you had to go through all of that bs. THATS THE POINT. If you have ever actually seen animals go through this because their owners were negligent and didn't vaccinate, then you would change your mind REAL quick.


See the word is negligence. Any naturally reared puppy that comes from a good breeder will be introduced slowly. They make time to build up immunity to things. They don't just dump them in the middle of everything. There's a way to do non vaccination correctly and then there's a way to do it incorrectly. You said they were from rescue. There immune systems at already compromised probably, they weren't fed or watered possibly, they weren't treated well possibly. You can't base a good opinion and surmise off of one side.


----------



## naturalfeddogs

hund said:


> I would like to know where you found the study stating that naturally reared dogs have higher immunity?
> I'm sure if any vets were to read this would swoon.... it's ridiculous.
> 
> Here's a little story for ya'll... my grandma and grandpa were a part of a religion that stated that they could NOT immunize and had to eat natural. Well they lived off of the land and lived as "natural" as one can live. My Aunty ended up getting diphtheria and dying at age 15. My uncle almost died as well and he was about 4 at the time. Someone's life was ended because they thought living "naturally" could cure all things.
> Vaccinating isn't the greatest thing but neither is dying of the diseases they protect against. The lesser of two evils.
> I really hate the extremist view point that dogs should not be vaccinated. Fine of your entire kennel dies of parvo, that's not my problem. but if it gets rabies then it certainly is, as this is a zoonotic disease. I don't know what else to call it but stupid. I'm sorry but that is me being direct and honest.
> If you dont wish to vaccinate then keep your dog away from the genera public. *shudders*



My response to this would need to be taken up in the raw feeding section. It will start a WHOLE different discussion, since thats where a high immunity starts.


----------



## hund

As I stated earlier. There is another thread in the health section. http://dogfoodchat.com/forum/dog-health-issues-question/17268-no-vaccinations.html


----------



## Sprocket

hund said:


> They are blunt and direct. Something the world apparently needs right now.
> What I meant by sharing your views on Pitbull chat is that most people tend to change their view points when the majority does. I'm not about to follow the majority just because there is a new fad out there.
> I've seen dogs with distemper, rabies and parvo. If youve never seen it, don't talk about it.
> Sahara- of course she was biased. You would be too if you had to go through all of that bs. THATS THE POINT. If you have ever actually seen animals go through this because their owners were negligent and didn't vaccinate, then you would change your mind REAL quick.



There is a difference between being rude (PBC) and tactfully explaining your position (members I enjoy on this forum).

I don't think I have logged in for a few months now. I have stated before that I don't agree or get along with most bully breed owners. Many of them are just not the type of people I connect with.


----------



## hund

I will say one more thing. This extremist point of view on vaccination regimes (or lack thereof) makes me seriously question the validity of a full PMR diet. 
People on this forum seem to think that the PMR diet is a cure for all issues in dog's of today. Making fantastical comparisons between dogs of today to wolves in the wild. I have hard time making the comparison between a raw diet and not getting parvo. Or not getting intestinal parasites. 
You seem to all make great leaps in understanding- raw fed=no health issues. This is a deluded way to think. 
There are little considerations for genetics, environment (pollution), stress levels etc. It's all diet! Nothing else. 
It's conjecture and googling. I want more then that. 
Raw feeders tend to always be demanding studies that kibble is this or vaccines do that but as soon as the same thing is asked of you the statement is always "all I have to do is look at my dog"..... 
I came on here to learn about the PMR diet and possibly make the switch but all it did was raise more questions and doubts.


----------



## Sprocket

hund said:


> I will say one more thing. This extremist point of view on vaccination regimes (or lack thereof) makes me seriously question the validity of a full PMR diet.
> People on this forum seem to think that the PMR diet is a cure for all issues in dog's of today. Making fantastical comparisons between dogs of today to wolves in the wild. I have hard time making the comparison between a raw diet and not getting parvo. Or not getting intestinal parasites.
> You seem to all make great leaps in understanding- raw fed=no health issues. This is a deluded way to think.
> There are little considerations for genetics, environment (pollution), stress levels etc. It's all diet! Nothing else.
> It's conjecture and googling. I want more then that.
> Raw feeders tend to always be demanding studies that kibble is this or vaccines do that but as soon as the same thing is asked of you the statement is always "all I have to do is look at my dog".....
> I came on here to learn about the PMR diet and possibly make the switch but all it did was raise more questions and doubts.



Like I have said previously. If you do not have an open mind, then you do not need to be questioning the methods of others. Making these accusations and assumptions about raw feeders does nothing. You say that if we don't see dogs dying of parvo, then we shouldn't talk about it. You don't feed raw, don't put words in our mouths. 

Why should anyone here, give you their research just to have it thrown back in our faces? Our time is to valuable to waste it on someone who is not genuinely interested.

The vaccination debate has NOTHING to do with raw feeding. 

Frankly, people like you are why I stopped going to PBC.


----------



## DaViking

Liz said:


> 10 - 15 years or more is a long commitment when you are not 100% behind the ethics and practices of the breeder your purchase your pup from.


Something about that sentence that doesn't sit well with me, but I can let it go since I respect what you are trying to achieve and I don't think you meant it in a bad way.


----------



## hund

Sprocket said:


> Like I have said previously. If you do not have an open mind, then you do not need to be questioning the methods of others. Making these accusations and assumptions about raw feeders does nothing. You say that if we don't see dogs dying of parvo, then we shouldn't talk about it. You don't feed raw, don't put words in our mouths.
> 
> Why should anyone here, give you their research just to have it thrown back in our faces? Our time is to valuable to waste it on someone who is not genuinely interested.
> 
> The vaccination debate has NOTHING to do with raw feeding.
> 
> Frankly, people like you are why I stopped going to PBC.


If I had an open mind to watching puppies die then I guess we could discuss this. 
Liz and naturalfeddogs stated that dogs who are fed raw have a higher immunity and do not need vaccines. Thats why I made the reference. 
Why should I call my vet and ask her to type up a written statement as to why dogs should be vaccinated, dated and signed by a professional just to have the raw feeders say "well shes a vet, she's in it for the money". 
Everything's a big conspiracy. Vets are conspiring to exploit us lol.
My vet and I have a very good relationship and she isnt for over vaccination. She is for taking proper precautions.


----------



## naturalfeddogs

hund said:


> If I had an open mind to watching puppies die then I guess we could discuss this.
> Liz and naturalfeddogs stated that dogs who are fed raw have a higher immunity and do not need vaccines. Thats why I made the reference.
> Why should I call my vet and ask her to type up a written statement as to why dogs should be vaccinated, dated and signed by a professional just to have the raw feeders say "well shes a vet, she's in it for the money".
> Everything's a big conspiracy. Vets are conspiring to exploit us lol.
> My vet and I have a very good relationship and she isnt for over vaccination. She is for taking proper precautions.




We will gladly discuss that with you in the raw feeding section, if you want to know more about that approach to not vaccinating.


----------



## newlndnfire

hund said:


> I will say one more thing. This extremist point of view on vaccination regimes (or lack thereof) makes me seriously question the validity of a full PMR diet.
> People on this forum seem to think that the PMR diet is a cure for all issues in dog's of today. Making fantastical comparisons between dogs of today to wolves in the wild. I have hard time making the comparison between a raw diet and not getting parvo. Or not getting intestinal parasites.
> You seem to all make great leaps in understanding- raw fed=no health issues. This is a deluded way to think.
> There are little considerations for genetics, environment (pollution), stress levels etc. It's all diet! Nothing else.
> It's conjecture and googling. I want more then that.
> Raw feeders tend to always be demanding studies that kibble is this or vaccines do that but as soon as the same thing is asked of you the statement is always "all I have to do is look at my dog".....
> *I came on here to learn about the PMR diet and possibly make the switch but all it did was raise more questions and doubts.*


The bolded part is what I will be responding too. You say that you have more doubts and more questions after coming here to find out about raw? If this is true, why are you switching to raw as you have stated in a different thread?


----------



## whiteleo

Sprocket said:


> There is a difference between being rude (PBC) and tactfully explaining your position (members I enjoy on this forum).
> 
> I don't think I have logged in for a few months now. I have stated before that I don't agree or get along with most bully breed owners. Many of them are just not the type of people I connect with.


Sprocket, that doesn't include me and my Bull Terriers does it? LOL


----------



## Sprocket

whiteleo said:


> Sprocket, that doesn't include me and my Bull Terriers does it? LOL


I did say "most", not all! :biggrin: 

I do enjoy the majority of the bully breed owners on this forum. They are, for the most part, the kind of people I enjoy speaking to.


----------



## hund

newlndnfire said:


> The bolded part is what I will be responding too. You say that you have more doubts and more questions after coming here to find out about raw? If this is true, why are you switching to raw as you have stated in a different thread?


I still haven't decided if I want to go FULL PMR. I should have clarified... I'm on the fence ATM. I don't want to just be lead by a bunch of extremists. I want to educate myself in a factual way. Anecdotes are helpful but I want facts as well.
Regardless if I go 100% PMR, I will still be doing partial raw feeding.


----------



## whiteleo

hund said:


> I still haven't decided if I want to go FULL PMR. I should have clarified... I'm on the fence ATM. I don't want to just be lead by a bunch of extremists. I want to educate myself in a factual way. Anecdotes are helpful but I want facts as well.
> Regardless if I go 100% PMR, I will still be doing partial raw feeding.


http://groups.yahoo.com/group/rawfeeding/?yguid=353968719
Since we are extremists here, maybe you should go here for your raw info.
_rawfeeding_


----------



## newlndnfire

hund said:


> I still haven't decided if I want to go FULL PMR. I should have clarified... I'm on the fence ATM. I don't want to just be lead by a bunch of extremists. I want to educate myself in a factual way. Anecdotes are helpful but I want facts as well.
> Regardless if I go 100% PMR, I will still be doing partial raw feeding.


Sorry to say but it's doubtful you'll find facts. I'm sure that you've been told time and time again that no one would fund the study. Kibble companies want you to buy kibble, not raw food from the grocery store. Maybe now that there is a few pre-made raw foods there will be a study done but right now, all we have is anecdotal evidence. Something that you will have to learn to deal with. It's worked for many people, does it really make a difference if there's a study done or not?


----------



## newlndnfire

P.S. 



> I put up an ad on kijiji for any unwanted meats and I'm hoping I'll gets some hits soon!
> Its coming close to hunting season and there will be a lot of elk, deer and moose for the taking! My uncles both hunt deer, moose and elk. Not to mention my husband's boss hunts goose and will be taking the breasts and giving me the rest of the meat off of the carcasses.
> I have also just found a whole lamb that was butchered and is for sale for 40 dollars fully dressed. I responded to that ad.
> *I have made the decision to go full PMR *but I want a freezer full of meats to get me started! Also looking into some meat scissors and possibly a scale (not sure if I will be that precise or if ill wing it). Anything else I might need?
> I want to be 100% prepared and I'm sure I'll have plenty of questions! Pretty excited, is that lame or what? Lol


From your thread http://dogfoodchat.com/forum/raw-feeding/17256-so-i-put-up-ad.html]So I Put Up an Ad!


----------



## DaViking

this thread is way off topic now


----------



## hund

newlndnfire said:


> P.S.
> 
> 
> 
> From your thread http://dogfoodchat.com/forum/raw-feeding/17256-so-i-put-up-ad.html]So I Put Up an Ad!


Exactly. I stated I am questioning it AFTER I put up that thread. I don't want to be the blind man being lead by the blind...


----------



## hund

DaViking said:


> this thread is way off topic now


*sigh* you are correct. I totally derailed this thread. My apologies to the OP.


----------



## DaViking

hund said:


> *sigh* you are correct. I totally derailed this thread. My apologies to the OP.


i'm the one in grey...


----------



## hund

Cur said:


> ...but is it really a good idea with all the fillers / less than ideal protein sources? She wants us to feed it to him for the first 6 months or so. She's a very well respective breeder, AKC breeder of merit, and has a great line of top winning dogs in her breed.
> 
> We just picked up our 11 week old Bullmastiff puppy and bought a bag of the Purina Pro Plan LB Puppy on her insistence / advice, and I was given a small bag of Orijen LB Puppy by our friendly grain store folks. I've been using the Orijen as treats for potty / crate training, and putting a small amount into his breakfast / dinner, to just see if it's compatible with his tummy. He seems to have no reactions to it.
> 
> Would you follow the breeders advice? Or would you move your new puppy to a much better food?
> 
> I'm really torn.


I don't particularly like Pro Plan as a food. Not enough meat proteins for me. However a switch from Pro Plan to Orijen might be very tedious as it is a rich food. If you do decide to go that route I would do it VERY slowly-- at least a week of transition, maybe more.


----------



## hund

DaViking said:


> i'm the one in grey...


Pretty sexy.


----------



## Cur

Trying to post a pic again... seems the last try was eaten by the internet.

The 'lil guy... Guinness.















Big brother watching over (well napping over!)


----------



## hund

Cur said:


> Trying to post a pic again... seems the last try was eaten by the internet.
> 
> The 'lil guy... Guinness.
> View attachment 8162
> 
> View attachment 8164
> 
> 
> Big brother watching over (well napping over!)
> View attachment 8163


Oh my. That is one of the cutest puppies I have ever seen... I want to smooch him!


----------



## Cur

hund said:


> Oh my. That is one of the cutest puppies I have ever seen... I want to smooch him!


Lol he'd be willing, but the line is long... Grandma Cur, Mrs. Cur and the Cur-lings spend quite a bit of time getting puppy kisses. His other time is usually spent treating poor Remy as another chew toy. But he takes it like a trooper and plays pretty gentle.

Seems my job is food and potty!!


----------



## lauren43

Oh my god! He is adorable. Bullmastiff is on my list of dogs I must one day have!!


----------



## NewYorkDogue

Cur said:


> Trying to post a pic again... seems the last try was eaten by the internet.
> 
> The 'lil guy... Guinness.
> View attachment 8162
> 
> View attachment 8164
> 
> 
> Big brother watching over (well napping over!)
> View attachment 8163


OMG. Cu- Tie- Pie! What sweetness...


----------



## Liz

He is just adorable. I can't wait to see how majestic he is when he matures. Congrats


----------



## magicre

they are majestic dogs......and yours is a very very cute one....

no matter what you choose to feed, whether you vaccinate or not, i wish you and your pup a joyful time together.


----------



## kathylcsw

What a sweet puppy face!!


----------



## nupe

KittyKat said:


> Nothing to do with being pleased with results of food. If you ever go to a show someday you should watch these dogs get ready. The special shampoos to brighten coats, the chalking to make them seem whiter and so on... even with sighthounds they chalk up the white areas so they will stand out. The food doesn't play a role here as they use every trick in the book to fix their dogs coats. Plenty of these dogs come in looking dull - it's only through the primping process that they get that shiny coat.
> 
> Me, I just brought my dog in and went into the ring. Piper got her Ch. au natural.
> 
> Plenty of breeders are approached by companies like Eukanuba, Royal Canin, Purina etc. and are offered sweet deals in exchange for recommending their product.
> 
> I won't step into field issues as that would get me on the topic of raw.


TY I was going to ask ...well why do the dogs on the dog shows look so good coat wise....but ty for telling some tricks of the trade...lol....sorry now back to our show!!!


----------



## monster'sdad

Cur said:


> ...but is it really a good idea with all the fillers / less than ideal protein sources? She wants us to feed it to him for the first 6 months or so. She's a very well respective breeder, AKC breeder of merit, and has a great line of top winning dogs in her breed.
> 
> We just picked up our 11 week old Bullmastiff puppy and bought a bag of the Purina Pro Plan LB Puppy on her insistence / advice, and I was given a small bag of Orijen LB Puppy by our friendly grain store folks. I've been using the Orijen as treats for potty / crate training, and putting a small amount into his breakfast / dinner, to just see if it's compatible with his tummy. He seems to have no reactions to it.
> 
> Would you follow the breeders advice? Or would you move your new puppy to a much better food?
> 
> I'm really torn.


Let me ask you something. You know the breeder and trust the breeder. She is a decorated professional and an expert in your breed. So why in the world would you listen to people on here you don't know and that don't have any expertise in canine nutrition? Professionals don't use the foods people on here rave about. Why? That is simple, they aren't that good. Case closed.

If you can't trust her to pick the right food how in the world can you trust her breeding decisions?

If you decide to show this dog, or do other types of competition, you will see that foods like Orijen aren't even talked about.


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## Dude and Bucks Mamma

hund said:


> Exactly. I stated I am questioning it AFTER I put up that thread. I don't want to be the blind man being lead by the blind...


I don't know who you're following but I'M not blind.



monster'sdad said:


> Let me ask you something. You know the breeder and trust the breeder. She is a decorated professional and an expert in your breed. So why in the world would you listen to people on here you don't know and that don't have any expertise in canine nutrition? Professionals don't use the foods people on here rave about. Why? That is simple, they aren't that good. Case closed.
> 
> If you can't trust her to pick the right food how in the world can you trust her breeding decisions?
> 
> If you decide to show this dog, or do other types of competition, you will see that foods like Orijen aren't even talked about.


The sad fact is that many dog owners simply don't educate themselves. My mom fed her boxer Pedigree until she was so itchy she was chewing her paws open. She only switched after it was determined that it was food allergies. My mom has never read the ingredients on the bag. Neither has my stepdad, dad, stepmom, grandparents, aunts, uncles, etc. Most people just don't look. When it comes to my coonhounds breeder... I trust his breeding but he fed Purina. It isn't the best food. He may know breeding but, when I asked him why he feeds Purina, he said it was because it was what his dad had always fed his hounds. 

When I got my collie I asked the breeder why he needed Pedigree. She said it was because the dogs did well on it. She had no other reason other than "they do well". Many people feed a certain food simply because it's what they have always fed. 

And, I hate to burst your bubble but, some people who rave about certain high quality foods, as well as raw, ARE professionals and ARE people who show their dogs and/or compete in various dog sports.


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## magicre

monster'sdad said:


> If you can't trust her to pick the right food how in the world can you trust her breeding decisions?


i'm getting a collie in the near future.

i trust my breeder with my life. literally.

if she fed purina pro plan, i'd not get a dog from her.

the reason is simple.

i've done my research. and i am satisfied with the results i have determined to be true for me and my dogs.

i would then wonder why my breeder did not do his/her research on food...and that would lead me to wonder what else she didn't research and implement.

not to say a kibble fed puppy would deter me. but a purina pro plan kibble fed puppy would deter me. 

and the reason?

the ingredients, man....study the ingredients. forget about the processing for one moment. study the ingredients.

i did. and they came up wanting. case closed.


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## DaViking

magicre said:


> i've done my research. and i am satisfied with the results i have determined to be true for me and my dogs.
> 
> i would then wonder why my breeder did not do his/her research on food...and that would lead me to wonder what else she didn't research and implement.


I absolutely disagree with this but I can see how it makes sense for you, as a person with extreme views and requirements you would more than likely find other major issues with said breeders knowledge, standards and practices. The rest of us who care more about getting the right puppy for the right situation into the right hands can continue to keep ProPlan feeding breeders in the mix and discard your views on this topic as extremist.


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## magicre

if it suits you to call me extremist, so be it.

i've certainly been called worse names.


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## DaneMama

I am THIS [-----] (like 1/2 inch) close to handing out some time outs to those who cannot just figure it out and agree to disagree. Either figure it out or I WILL give you all some time to think about things.


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