# Help! I need an expert on 32/32 dog foods.



## Pitlover (Mar 5, 2017)

Hello,
I am really hoping for some in depth knowledge regarding high performance dog foods.
I am getting a new Puppy from a breeder (American Pit Bull), the father of the puppies is 136lbs and the mother is around 80 lbs. He has full grown females walking around at 105 lbs...
The reason I am telling you this is because he insists that the size of his dogs is related to him feeding his dogs Inukshuk 32/32. He tells me that if I don't feed my puppy the Inukshuk 32/32 then she wont get as big as his dogs get...
Now I am really trying to rap my head around this and understand WHY? I use the site "dog food advisor" to get ratings on different foods, Inukshuk is only at 3.5 stars and i'm not a fan of the corn filler. It has a calorie weighted basis of 24% carbs, 25% protein and 51% fat.
I have been trying to find a 5 star rated food that has a similar calorie weighted basis, but all of the suggested foods (Wellness core, Taste of the wild etc..) have a higher carb % and lower fat %.
I have been reading and reading and I can't find any supporting evidence as to why Inukshuk would benefit these dogs in this way, I am really hoping someone can give me some knowledgeable insight on this subject and maybe educate me a bit.
Thank you in advance.
Kahlil


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## naturalfeddogs (Jan 6, 2011)

I don't feed kibble, so I'm not sure about that food, other than it's making those dogs way to big, in an unhealthy way. If it's genetics your will get that big( still not good), and if it's the food it's just making them huge with fat. I absolutely would not feed that food.


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## OtherGuy (Nov 30, 2016)

Hard working dogs should get about 50% of calories from fat (remembering fat has 9 calories per gram vs 4 calories for protein and carbs).

The problem with kibbles, even this one that has relatively high fat (a good thing) and high protein is that it still has too many calories from carbohydrates. I feed raw, but with plenty of fat. Quality fat is a positive in good canine nutrition. 

Bill


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## naturalfeddogs (Jan 6, 2011)

From my understanding, this puppy is going to be pet, not a hard working performance dog. The OP didn't specify, but unless this dog will be doing weight pulling competition, there is no reason for a pit to be so big, fed such a performance food. This sounds more like a breeder who isn't breeding for what the breed should be. Like Dobes and German Shepherds considered "king size" of 150 or so lbs. IMO, poor breeders. Would you buy a Vizla from a breeder who told you this? One who says his Vizlas are well over 100 lbs because of the food? That's an irresponsible breederIMO. 

I feel like this breeder is breeding pits for their "tough" reputation, which is the wrong reason to breed. Breeding to standard is more important. JMO.


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## OtherGuy (Nov 30, 2016)

naturalfeddogs said:


> From my understanding, this puppy is going to be pet, not a hard working performance dog. The OP didn't specify, but unless this dog will be doing weight pulling competition, there is no reason for a pit to be so big, fed such a performance food. This sounds more like a breeder who isn't breeding for what the breed should be. Like Dobes and German Shepherds considered "king size" of 150 or so lbs. IMO, poor breeders. Would you buy a Vizla from a breeder who told you this? One who says his Vizlas are well over 100 lbs because of the food? That's an irresponsible breederIMO.
> 
> I feel like this breeder is breeding pits for their "tough" reputation, which is the wrong reason to breed. Breeding to standard is more important. JMO.


One, I don't believe the "size" issue is very related to the balance of calories from fat vs carbohydrates. I think this breeder is misinformed. 

I also think it is a bad idea to overfeed puppies in terms of calories, as every study (backed by the consensus of experience in the dog world) points to slow steady growth rates (promoted by keeping pups on the lean side) results in better ultimate joint health in adulthood with no size differences.

While the potential to overfeed is possible with a high-fat food (given the energy denseness) fat is also the energy source best metabolized by dogs and most likely to be turned into energy rather than stored as body fat. The complicating issue in the discussed feed are the carbohydrates, which are a negative in all kibbles. But at 30% protein (unweighted total) it is above the 26% minimum protein below which muscle tears and poor muscle repair are a problem, and the calories from fat squeeze out carolies from carbohydrates (not to the degree I'd prefer as a raw feeder, but better than most kibbles).

Where one would need to be cautions with this food is not to overfeed. It is always best with dogs to feed less volume of food (using energy dense options) that getting the same calories via a large amount of low density foods.

That is true of pets as well as performance dogs. The only problem with this is due to human beings who have no sense of portion control. But a dog fed a high-protein high-fat kibble will be stronger (more muscular), leaner (less body fat), and have more edndurance and energy that a dog fed the same total calories from a high-carb kibble diet.

So it think this pit owner would do better getting a high-protein/high-fat kibble vs a high-carb option. Thinking it will be "super-sized" as a result is folly, as that is mostly a matter of genetics and pushing fast growth is NOT advisable, but when fed in reasonable amounts the dog will be stronger and leaner with the the same total calories if they come from a high-protein/high-fat source.

Bill


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## Pitlover (Mar 5, 2017)

naturalfeddogs said:


> I don't feed kibble, so I'm not sure about that food, other than it's making those dogs way to big, in an unhealthy way. If it's genetics your will get that big( still not good), and if it's the food it's just making them huge with fat. I absolutely would not feed that food.


Thanks for the input!


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## Pitlover (Mar 5, 2017)

OtherGuy said:


> One, I don't believe the "size" issue is very related to the balance of calories from fat vs carbohydrates. I think this breeder is misinformed.
> 
> I also think it is a bad idea to overfeed puppies in terms of calories, as every study (backed by the consensus of experience in the dog world) points to slow steady growth rates (promoted by keeping pups on the lean side) results in better ultimate joint health in adulthood with no size differences.
> 
> ...


Thanks Bill,
I appreciate the detail in your response.
My only hesitation with Inukshuk is the corn filler, and the fact that "dogfoodadvisor" only rates the 32/32 at 3 stars. 
I am looking at a similar food called "Bully max high performance" the calorie weighted basis is 29.7% carbs 26.7% protein and 43.6% fat... Not as good of a ratio as Inukshuk but "Dogfoodadvisor" rates it at 5 stars..


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## Pitlover (Mar 5, 2017)

naturalfeddogs said:


> From my understanding, this puppy is going to be pet, not a hard working performance dog. The OP didn't specify, but unless this dog will be doing weight pulling competition, there is no reason for a pit to be so big, fed such a performance food. This sounds more like a breeder who isn't breeding for what the breed should be. Like Dobes and German Shepherds considered "king size" of 150 or so lbs. IMO, poor breeders. Would you buy a Vizla from a breeder who told you this? One who says his Vizlas are well over 100 lbs because of the food? That's an irresponsible breederIMO.
> 
> I feel like this breeder is breeding pits for their "tough" reputation, which is the wrong reason to breed. Breeding to standard is more important. JMO.


The blood line is a "working dog" line, his dogs do weight pulling. He is not breeding his pits for a "tough" reputation but more so for clientele demand. People are wanting bigger and bigger pits. He is a responsible breeder and all of his dogs have impeccable temperaments as well as come with a lifetime health guarantee from any genetic disorders or major health problems.
With that put aside, my question here was more in relation to the food and understanding why it could benefit the dogs in the way he claims it does.


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## naturalfeddogs (Jan 6, 2011)

I think maybe it would benefit you if you were going to compete in weight pulling, but I'm a raw feeder so I really am not too familiar with most kibble.


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## naturalfeddogs (Jan 6, 2011)

And on a side note, if raw is going to be considered and discussed, it needs to go to the raw forum.


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## Pitlover (Mar 5, 2017)

naturalfeddogs said:


> And on a side note, if raw is going to be considered and discussed, it needs to go to the raw forum.


My mistake, I have deleted the post pertaining to that.


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## naturalfeddogs (Jan 6, 2011)

You didn't have to delete it, it just didn't need to turn into a raw discussion in the dry food section. Feel free to join the raw discussions as well!


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## OtherGuy (Nov 30, 2016)

Pitlover said:


> Thanks Bill,
> I appreciate the detail in your response.
> My only hesitation with Inukshuk is the corn filler, and the fact that "dogfoodadvisor" only rates the 32/32 at 3 stars.
> I am looking at a similar food called "Bully max high performance" the calorie weighted basis is 29.7% carbs 26.7% protein and 43.6% fat... Not as good of a ratio as Inukshuk but "Dogfoodadvisor" rates it at 5 stars..


"Dogfoodadvisor" has joined a regrettable trend of treating carbohydrates from corn or other grains as if they are more problematic than when they come from potatoes or rice. Nothing in nutritional science supports that (aside from specific allergy issues).

Calories from carbohydrates are the issue. The fewer the better. I prefer none. The National Research Council (the recognized conventional authority on canine nutrition) has determined dogs have no essential need for carbohydrates. A Pet-food industry study showed unfit dogs who'd been fed a high-carb kibble diet had dramatic improvements in vitality and endurance (as measured by VO2 Max scores on a treadmill) when moved to a high-protein/high-fat ration. They went from very poor scores, to VO2 Max scores nearly riviling conditioned canine athletes based on a change in diet alone.

I only mention raw in it being one of the few way to completely eliminate carbohydrates from the diet. Barring this reducing carbs as much as possible in kibble formulations is a good thing. I don't buy for one moment that the rice or millet in Bully Max has any advantage over corn in Inukshuk.

When raw feeders have the non-mineral non-fiberous portions of the diet in the ratio of about 70% lean meat to 30% fat we are getting almost the same 50% of calories from fat that one gets with Inukshuk. I'd (very strongly) prefer no carbs, and some red meat in the diet, but this is a better formula type than a higher carb ration.

Dogfoodadvisor's ratings should be taken with a lump of salt. Carbs are carbs.

Bill


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## OtherGuy (Nov 30, 2016)

Pitlover said:


> The blood line is a "working dog" line, his dogs do weight pulling. He is not breeding his pits for a "tough" reputation but more so for clientele demand. People are wanting bigger and bigger pits. He is a responsible breeder and all of his dogs have impeccable temperaments as well as come with a lifetime health guarantee from any genetic disorders or major health problems.
> With that put aside, my question here was more in relation to the food and understanding why it could benefit the dogs in the way he claims it does.


High-protein benefits dogs as it is critical in building muscles, preventing muscle tears, and in rebuilding muscle tissues that have been under stress.

High-fat diets provide dogs with endurance and vitality from the energy source they evolved to trive on. When carbs become the primary energy source (as with most kibble) there is a spike in blood glycogen, which gives a short-term boost of energy. But this spike is not replenishable, and carb fed dogs quicky experience a fade in energy. 

In contrast fat conditioned dogs start with a slighly lower level of blood gycogen, but when the supply is tapped they can keep churning out a steady supply of energy by efficiently converting fat. There is no contest.

So your breeder isn't wrong about these benefits. On the size issue, the best evidence points to genetics being the determining factor and pushing fast growth is not what experienced dog trainers advocate as it puts too much stress on developing joints.


Bill


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## Pitlover (Mar 5, 2017)

OtherGuy said:


> Pitlover said:
> 
> 
> > Thanks Bill,
> ...


Thank you again for all of the information, I really appreciate you taking the time to explain this to me.
Based off what you're telling me, I'm thinking I'll use the "Inukshuk" kibble mixed with "wellness core wet food" which has a calorie weighted basis of 61% fat 38% protein 1% carbs.. this will ultimately bring my overall carb % down further. I understand that's still not as good as raw, but raw is not an option for me right now!


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## OtherGuy (Nov 30, 2016)

Pitlover said:


> Thank you again for all of the information, I really appreciate you taking the time to explain this to me.
> Based off what you're telling me, I'm thinking I'll use the "Inukshuk" kibble mixed with "wellness core wet food" which has a calorie weighted basis of 61% fat 38% protein 1% carbs.. this will ultimately bring my overall carb % down further. I understand that's still not as good as raw, but raw is not an option for me right now!


Sounds reasonable to me. While I'm sold on raw as optimal, I'm also not one to make perfect the enemy of the good. I'm sure your dog will thrive on this sort of combo. 

I would not overfeed in an attempt to promote the maximum growth rate. I do not believe you'd end up with a larger dog (and nutrition studies back this up) but you could end up with one with orthopedic problems. Keep the pup lean. With a high-protein/high-fat diet the muscular development and endurance will come. As will the ultimate size.

I'd also look for a beef, venison, lamb type wet food to complement the Inukshuk, and not feed more chicken or (especially) fish.

Bill


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