# Is it possible to have two pack leaders?



## sozzle (May 18, 2011)

The problem is that our boy Stanley sees me as pack leader which is absolutely fine as I am the one who is at home with him during the day, I'm the one that mostly feeds him and walks him etc. Yesterday just before bed my husband tried to get him up for a pee and put his jacket on (winter here and greyhounds have very thin coats) with a treat as he is very food motivated. However he wouldn't budge from his bed even with a treat and DH tried to put jacket on him whilst he was lying down which he didn't like and he got growled at.
DH got pissed off about it (he is very sensitive about certain things) and said that I had to do it.
I walked into the room with a treat and he was up straightaway so I was able to do those things before bed.
Also when DH plays with him, Stanley tries to nip him and is quite rough as if he's a pack member. 
He doesn't do this with me when I play with him.
DH understands the pack leader 'thing' and I've told him that I am not sure whether he will see both of us as leaders or that maybe he will always bond with one person more than the other as I spend more time with him.
Do any of you more experienced owners have any advice please?


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## chowder (Sep 7, 2008)

I'm sure there are others here with more training expertise to help you, but I can put in my two cents worth here. While dogs sometimes will bond more with one family member then another, there is no reason that they can't learn to obey ALL the family members. All three of my dogs are definitely bonded more to me and it's real obvious that I am the 'momma' of the house. BUT....any one of our family, including the boys can handle the dogs and have them do their lessons and the dogs obey them. 

No one outside of our family could probably handle Rocky, but he definitely knows who all the family members are and obeys them all. I think it would probably help a lot if your DH would start doing some basic obedience lessons with your pup. Just working in the backyard and around the house on things like 'sit' and down' and 'stay'. This would give the pup the idea that DH is someone that has to be listened to and obeyed.

Hopefully someone else will chime in with more ideas.


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## sozzle (May 18, 2011)

Thanks Chowder. Yes we do all that at home and we are going to dog obedience (Canine Good Citizen) once a week and DH always has the dog for that reason.
I could go away for a couple of days I suppose so I'm not around?
He's ok with the two kids even they do basic training with him at home too, the 'sit' and 'wait', 'laydown' etc type of thing. 
He often ignores them though as well outside when called.


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## Liz (Sep 27, 2010)

I find similar situations occurring here. The problem seems to be other family members do not follow through 100% of the time or behave like pack members rather than leaders. My dogs would never jump on me but they will practically maul my husband or kids. They think it's cute I definately dont't. To have more control they have to practice something like NILIF consistently. Be consistent, fair but demand quality obedience. Obedience that is not immediate is not obedience.


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## sozzle (May 18, 2011)

Good point Liz. When my son doesn't do what he is told when he is told he is at risk of losing points and points mean pocket money and loss of privileges! 
My dog has never jumped up and I do ignore him for a few mins some days when I go out and come back in the door. DH doesn't as he is very pleased that the dog is pleased to see him after a long day at work. Maybe we will do more of this.
Yes I think there is a lot of behaving like pack members and not leaders that may be slightly confusing to the dog. He is generally very obedient and has never tried to be dominant which we were told by the greyhound rescue people. Of course being an ex racer they are not used to living in a 'domestic' situation but in saying that he was fostered for a few weeks and possibly lived in his trainer/owner's house for a little while before adoption.
My inlaws border collie goes nuts when he sees me and jumps up all over the place so I have taken to ignoring him for a few mins until he has calmed down which is really hard to do when he insists on giving you body blows to the stomach and legs and he's only small and I am not. Have mixed results with this but most times it works.
One of the dog trainers I go to owns two greyhounds and always has two foster dogs at home so is very handy to ask questions.


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## DoglovingSenior (Jun 26, 2011)

My dogs always bonded with my son and me-I think that the follow-thru is very important. It would drive me nuts when I would hear my spouse in another room saying"sit,sit,sit,SIT" I only said it once. Then one night, I was on the computer & spouse bent over to give me "hello" kiss-Apollo was lying down (he was supposed to belong to spouse) out of the corner of my eye I could see him coming up & hear his growl-I said "Down" & he did. Spouse was then through with the dog he had seen & heard also. I tried to explain that we would have to work on knowing his proper place in the pack & that -but he was through.


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## Maxy24 (Mar 5, 2011)

I don't believe in any of the pack theory in it's application to human-dog relationships. I don't think dogs see us as Alpha wolves or pack mates. It's not even certain if dogs (not wolves) form stable packs with pack leaders when left to their own devices. 

So I'd stop thinking about it like that, but I suppose it doesn't matter as long as you don't try to do the terrible things I see most pack theory trainers do (alpha rolls, scruff shakes, hand biting, etc.).

In my house Tucker listens best to me. Why? I go to college away from home, he lives at home with my mom and dad. Yet when I'm home he gets far more attention from me then he does from anyone else when I'm not home. I walk him every day, I feed him, I play with him, I groom him, I take him out to places, but most importantly I practice training with him. Because of all we do together we've formed a tight bond. Because I practice training with him (carry treats in my pocket always and randomly ask him to do a known command, then deliver treat) he always assumes I have treats without being shown any, so he always listens in hopes of payment. Sometimes he doesn't get any treats, but he never knows when that will be so he listens in hopes he'll get one.

Tucker listens to my dad better than my mom because my dad has started to reward him for listening with treats (again, treats kept out of sight). Mom doesn't reward anything so the dog doesn't see the point in listening to her. On the other hand he is more likely to growl at my dad for moving him off the couch or trying to take a stolen item than he is to growl at mom because mom is more bonded with him than dad. Mom cuddles with him and when I'm at school is responsible for feeding and walking. He likes mom better and trusts her more. When dad touches him it is usually to bring him to his crate for bed time, to get him to drop something, or to get him off of the couch...all negative things. Where as mom cuddles and massages him so her touch is frequently welcome, not an automatically bad thing like when dad touches him. Dad pets him once a day maybe and never cuddles with him, he rarely plays with him and never walks him. He does take him out sometimes. So they have a weaker bond, but Tucker still listens to dad best. It has nothing to do with pack structure, it has to do with bond and learning.


I think it's also important to reward with more than just treats, you have to try and excite the dog as well, with your voice or body language or toys, get him pumped and really happy after he follows a command. The treat is what he wants, so give that, but make it really fun by exciting the dog somehow. And make sure to incorporate practice throughout the day. If all I ever did was training sessions and never did random rehearsals of commands in day to day life he'd only ever listen during sessions. To me sessions are for teaching a command and proofing it. They don't teach your dog to listen, they teach him to understand what you are saying, what it means exactly. The commands you give without proof that you have treats (you still have it and reward with it, but the dog listens on faith) are the ones that teach the dog to listen in day to day life.


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## RawFedDogs (Jun 16, 2008)

Maxy24 is right. The old dominance, alpha male, and alpha bitch is way outdated and has been proven wrong. In the old days it was thought that the alpha male was the biggest meanest most powerful wolf in the pack. In actual fact, the alpha male and female are mom & dad to all the other pack members. Thats right. The pack is made up of mom, dad, and all their offspring. The pack follows these two because they are the oldest and smartest of all the wolves there. They know where to find food and how to catch and kill it. They know what dangers to avoid and they know that many things that appear to be dangerous really aren't. The kids don't challenge mom and dad for the same reasons you don't challenge your mom and dad. You know you can learn from their wisdom and they have much more life experience than you.

Now, what you want to do is become your dog's teacher, mentor, and guide through life. It is you that teaches him how to live in a human world. This is a big attatude change but will make a wold of difference in your bond and relationship with your dog. Rather than command your dog to perform specific behaviors, give him cues as to how to act in different situations. I know with me and my dogs, whenever they are in a situation that they don't know how to act, they always look to me for direction. I can communicate to them what to do and usually they understand the first time. Out in the real world and they are with me, when I'm nervous, so are they. When I am calm, they are calm. When I am excited, they are excited. When I am sad, they are sad. They always look to me for cues as to how to act and they behave accordingly.

Are they perfect? Heck no! They are dogs. Sometimes they screw up but they don't get punished for it. They are not jerked, yelled at, pulled away. They are gently shown how to act and almost always pretty quickly adust their attitude.

Hehe, I remember one time years ago, I was upset with my dogs for not being perfect. I thought, "I am a dog trainer. I should have perfect dogs." About that time I heard this voice in my head, "Bill, you wife isn't perfect ... your son isn't perfect ... if you look closely enough you will find inperfections in yourself ... these are dogs, why on earth do you expect them to be perfect." I have never worried again about my dogs not being perfect. Oops ... didn't mean to write a book.... sorry. :smile;


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## eternalstudent (Jul 22, 2010)

I am not the most experienced of dog owners on here but this is my observation.

I am the one that deals most with my pup, when I ask her to sit she nearly always does, when I ask her to go into a down she nearly always does etc etc. 

What I have noticed when I see other people try to interact with her she does not always do what she is asked, which leads to frustration. The big part I notice is that I have a very different body posture, stance etc. I do not think the dog is ignoring the other people, more not having a clue as to what she is supposed to be doing. 

I believe that this is why some dogs are considered to only have ONE master, it is not that they choose this it is more that they only understand one person.

The fact that you pup may be more delighted to see you rather than DH I would put down to you are probably more interesting - he see's you more often and knows something good is going to happen .

As for the play, do the other family members instigate play with him like you do? If not then he is probably wanting to play, but if you play with him then it might be a case of he knows you and him will play.

Again these are only my observations from mine and others interactions with my pup )


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## Kate (Sep 7, 2011)

Stanley needs to understand that your hubby is 'a might higher up on the totem pole' than he is and growling and disobedience is not permissible. But, who corrects Stanley when he shows disrespect? The Pack leader, that's who. Since Sozzle is the Pack Leader, it is up to you to get after Stanley when he's disregarding orders. Have his leash close by, clip him and once corrected, give the leash to your hubby who can complete the task at hand. Stanley will accept your hubby easier this way.. however, he needs to make a mistake first, before any kind of correction can be accomplished. Good luck.


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## caprisun (Sep 7, 2011)

IMO dogs can learn to listen to everybody, the question is is that person capable of "making" the dog listen to him?

I mean.. my mom has absolutely no clue about how to train or properly handle a dog..
and I honestly think that even if she was told or showed how to do.. she just doesn't have that *thing* that makes the dog want to work for you and obey you.
the dogs RUN all over her really lol
I mean, they are nice and all, but you just see they don't give a f*ck about what she wants from them lol


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## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

Rebel really only minds me.

But that's because my husband has never bothered to work with him or even understand basic commands - he will say "Stay" when he means "back" and Rebel gets confused. He never used any hand signals. So Rebel just ignores him, and that's my husband's fault. My husband also doesn't see the point of treats. I think they do have a better communication when I am not there.

Snorkels bows to no man (or woman). She does whatever the heck she wants, when she wants. She is the queen of all she surveys, and we can pretend we are alpha all we want. She knows better.,


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## SerenityFL (Sep 28, 2010)

Liz said:


> Obedience that is not immediate is not obedience.


That should be a quote of the day.


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