# Going raw! Need a little help....



## Paws&Tails (Sep 3, 2010)

I have Spike on an elimination diet and so far I know he is allergic to rice. 
A couple of days ago I had a brilliant thought rolleyes why not do raw instead of going through pains to make him homemade food? I'd wanted to put him on raw eventually anyways. And it's much less work than having to chop, cut and cook everything. 
He readily eats raw. A week ago I offered him some ground raw turkey and he ate it right off the spoon and looked for more. Yesterday I put a piece of turkey in his food bowl and he snatched it and ran into the living room to eat it, like I was going to take it away from him. 

Questions.....

How do I work him up to eating bones?

When do I start adding organs in?


----------



## DaneMama (Jun 27, 2008)

You want to start cold turkey, no pun intended!! Switch him off of kibble altogether and go straight to raw. What I suggest you do is fast your dog 12-24 hours before making the switch.

Starting with bone in chicken for two weeks straight is what is best. To be safe you can trim all fat and skin off for the first few days depending on if you see diarrhea. Slowly trimming less and less off. 

Organs won't be added in for quite some time, two months is usually when it's safe to do so. 

Please keep the questions coming! 

I highly suggest you read the link below:

Dedicated to proper carnivore nutrition - Prey Model Raw Feeding for Dogs & Cats


----------



## Jodysmom (Jan 9, 2010)

Paws&Tails said:


> I have Spike on an elimination diet and so far I know he is allergic to rice.
> A couple of days ago I had a brilliant thought rolleyes why not do raw instead of going through pains to make him homemade food? I'd wanted to put him on raw eventually anyways. And it's much less work than having to chop, cut and cook everything.
> He readily eats raw. A week ago I offered him some ground raw turkey and he ate it right off the spoon and looked for more. Yesterday I put a piece of turkey in his food bowl and he snatched it and ran into the living room to eat it, like I was going to take it away from him.
> 
> ...


I agree. It is so much easier feed PMR (Prey Model Raw) diet then all of the worrying and stress that goes along with an elimination diet. I was just posting in another thread how my rescued GSD was underweight and his dog kibble would go right through him. I spent so much time researching illness, allergies, and dog food it was crazy. You are going to find this is much more simple and biologically appropriate. 

I have only been feeding PMR for about 9 weeks now so there are many who are more experienced but I will try to help. I started feeding my dog Chicken Backs. They have just the right amount of bone verses meat to keep the stool firm and compact. You don't need to work up to giving a dog bone because they were designed to eat it and need it nutritionally and psychologcially. Most people recommend you fast your dog for a dog before you give the chicken back. Also, I removed the skin and organs from the chicken back for a few days. You can worry about adding other protiens and organ later. I know other more experienced feeders will chime in!


----------



## Paws&Tails (Sep 3, 2010)

He's been eating homemade for about a month now, so he's not eating kibble anymore. Should I still fast him?
Problem with feeding chicken is I _highly_ suspect he is allergic to it. Alternatives to it? 
They can't eat bones such as cow, turkey etc, right?


----------



## DaneMama (Jun 27, 2008)

I would still fast him.

He may he intolerant to cooked chicken but not raw chicken. I have seen dogs that have been diagnosed allergic to chicken do fabulous on raw chicken. I think you should give chicken a chance and go from there. There are other alternatives but chicken is easy to digest, easy to find and cheap.


----------



## luvMyBRT (Mar 8, 2010)

Yes, start with chicken backs for the first few days. Watch the stool to make sure it stays firm and solid. Do not over feed. This is something I did and it caused my pup to get diarrhea. He ended up needing half of what I was initially feeding him. In the beginning it is safe to feed less than what you think. Since the dog utilizes almost all of what he is eating, he will not need as much.

After you have fed only chicken backs for a few days, and your dogs stool stays looking good, add in a quarter here and there. Watch to make sure stools stay firm. For Lucky, my Pointer, I cut her quarters in half (since one quarter would be a full meal for her, and I like for her to eat twice a day). So she will eat a drummie (before you do this make sure your dog is a good chewier as a drumstick could be a choking hazard for some dogs) in the AM and the thigh (or something else) in the PM.

After two weeks with only chicken and if you dog is doing well, then you can add in another protein, like turkey.

Read the link that Natalie posted. This is what I refer to if I have a question....or I just ask here! :biggrin::tongue:

You are making a GREAT choice! Good luck!

ETA: Yes, I agree. I too think that you should give raw chicken a try.....


----------



## ubershann (Jul 29, 2010)

Paws&Tails said:


> He's been eating homemade for about a month now, so he's not eating kibble anymore. Should I still fast him?
> Problem with feeding chicken is I _highly_ suspect he is allergic to it. Alternatives to it?
> They can't eat bones such as cow, turkey etc, right?


My dog can't eat chicken either. I've tried in many ways, many times. No one knows your dog like you do. 

I feed raw, but not PMR so I can't help you in the meaty bone dept.


----------



## deb9017 (Aug 31, 2010)

They can eat bones from animals other than chicken. Turkey, pork, etc. You don't want to give them any weight bearing bones from large animals, such as leg bones from cattle,knuckle bones, etc. Because these bones are extremely dense and can break their teeth. But pork ribs, turkey necks, etc. are fine.

I would have to agree with Natalie on this though- there are a LOT of good cuts of chicken out there that are perfect for them, and they are almost always cheaper than the other stuff. I would at least give raw chicken a chance before writing it off.


----------



## DaneMama (Jun 27, 2008)

There's absolutely no harm in giving raw chicken a chance...if you're dog doesn't seem to handle it well, I suggest trying bone in turkey like turkey necks. They are extremely lean and have a high bone content and they are a good chew for the newbie raw eater. 

Good luck and let us know how it goes!


----------



## jdatwood (Apr 13, 2009)

It's VERY rare for a dog to be allergic to animal proteins in their raw form. It may take a few days of heavy bone in meals but I would wager your dog would end up doing fine on chicken.

Chicken definitely isn't a requirement in raw feeding but IS one of the cheaper meats available. To me it's worth trying out before completely dismissing it.

I would be cautious of any "raw diet" that doesn't include bone in meats & organs.


----------



## Paws&Tails (Sep 3, 2010)

danemama08 said:


> There's absolutely no harm in giving raw chicken a chance...if you're dog doesn't seem to handle it well, I suggest trying bone in turkey like turkey necks. They are extremely lean and have a high bone content and they are a good chew for the newbie raw eater.
> 
> Good luck and let us know how it goes!


Thank you for the link. I had found that website before and found it very helpful. Now that I'm going to start it I was trying to find it again but completely forgot the name of it.

I think I'm going to wait until he stops reacting from the rice to see what happens with chicken. Rice is the first thing I added back in and the same day he ate it he reacted to it. It's been a week and he's still really itchy and has itchy paws. So he's licking and biting at them resulting in red, sore paws. :frown:




deb9017 said:


> They can eat bones from animals other than chicken. Turkey, pork, etc. You don't want to give them any weight bearing bones from large animals, such as leg bones from cattle,knuckle bones, etc. Because these bones are extremely dense and can break their teeth. But pork ribs, turkey necks, etc. are fine.
> 
> I would have to agree with Natalie on this though- there are a LOT of good cuts of chicken out there that are perfect for them, and they are almost always cheaper than the other stuff. I would at least give raw chicken a chance before writing it off.


I was wondering about the bone thing. Thanks for clearing that up!


----------



## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

chicken is also easily digested...which is a very good reason to try it first before moving on.....unless, of course, your dog is intolerant...

the digestive system, teeth, neck and jaw muscles go through some pretty radical changes during transition....starting out with the easily digestible gives their stomachs the opportunity to adapt....and their teeth and the bones are soft, so muscles they've never had to work before has an easier time of it....


----------



## sassymaxmom (Dec 7, 2008)

Hoping the itchies go away fast! 

Don't buy a case of chicken just in case it doesn't work.


----------



## Paws&Tails (Sep 3, 2010)

The itchies are pretty much gone. Finally. I bought turkey drumsticks before I realized he couldn't eat the bone, so I ended up chunking the meat off the bone and he's eating that (I have bone meal, so he's getting that) for now. Next shopping trip I'm getting some chicken to try it out on him. Should I get drumsticks, thighs, or quarters? He's only 21 pounds.


----------



## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

we started our dogs on backs....for bone.....because they're soft. we stripped the excess fat, skin and definitely the organs (organs come later)

i'm glad we were advised to do it that way because i see now they have to have a chance to get their mouths and teeth healthy and learn how to eat a bone....

my one dog is 18 lbs and he only eats about 7 oz per day....so he would get half a back in the morning and half a back in the evening for the first two weeks....

but you've already started....and you don't know if you have a problem with chicken....i know my dogs could not eat kibble chicken but raw, they did fine....

i did buy turkey breast and used the breast bone....and i bought turkey necks...that came after the chicken backs....since you know he eats turkey.....maybe buy a few backs or carcasses from chickens and some turkey necks.....and see what happens with a chicken back stripped down..

if no reaction, then i'd say you're good to go...


----------



## Paws&Tails (Sep 3, 2010)

magicre said:


> we started our dogs on backs....for bone.....because they're soft. we stripped the excess fat, skin and definitely the organs (organs come later)
> 
> i'm glad we were advised to do it that way because i see now they have to have a chance to get their mouths and teeth healthy and learn how to eat a bone....
> 
> ...



I actually have some turkey necks. I'm using those as back up if he reacts to the raw chicken. Chicken backs.....I don't recall seeing those in the store...now I _did_ see some chicken necks, would those be good?


----------



## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

if he's a gulper, then no.....

you could, since he's been on raw for a month now, buy whole chickens and cut them up.

you eat the good parts, give him the boney parts....that's what we did for a while...


----------



## SerenityFL (Sep 28, 2010)

deb9017 said:


> You don't want to give them any weight bearing bones from large animals, such as leg bones from cattle,knuckle bones, etc. Because these bones are extremely dense and can break their teeth.


Quick question about weight bearing bones:

What about shoulder? I'm imagining a cow standing up and wonder if the shoulder bears weight...is it or is it not ok to feed shoulder?

Also, what about the hideous looking pig's feet and pig legs I found at our grocery store? Is that ok since pigs are smaller?

Thanks.


----------



## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

SerenityFL said:


> Quick question about weight bearing bones:
> 
> What about shoulder? I'm imagining a cow standing up and wonder if the shoulder bears weight...is it or is it not ok to feed shoulder?
> 
> ...


the weight shoulder bears is the neck and the head.
the weight legs bear is the entire body, neck and head.

so yes, you can feed shoulder.

hideous looking pig feet...up to you, but personally, they are too fatty for my dogs.....ratio wise...considering how little they weigh.

many give them as treats.....

don't knock pig feet....they're yummy when cooked just right 

on the other hand, medium weight animals, such as lamb and goat....and venison, i've heard, for bigger dogs, no problem....

just not those thousand pound beasties.


----------



## hbwright (Jul 14, 2010)

My dogs love pigs feet for treats. I have 2 dogs, 2 totally different weights that eat the same amount a day and the big one gets fat while the smaller one gets skinny. I love pigs feet for that reason too, I can just sneak her an extra one every now and then without feeling guilty for giving her an extra meal. 

I've also heard they are pretty good at cleaning teeth, don't know for sure about that though. I just know my dogs enjoy them and haven't had any bad reactions to them.


----------



## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

Amount Per Serving 
Calories 230
Calories from Fat 126 

Total Fat 14.0g22% 
Saturated Fat 4.0g20% 
Polyunsaturated Fat 1.0g 
Monounsaturated Fat 7.0g 
Cholesterol 100mg33% 
Sodium 150mg6% 
Protein 26.0g 

Vitamin A 0% • Vitamin C 0% 
Calcium 8% • 

just in case you're anal like me....seems they are about half fat, half protein....or close enough for a horse race..

ah, now i remember....wait until they are transitioned....too much fat in the beginning of raw might mean a few days of squirts.....or not, depending on the dog, of course....

mine were a pain in the arse, literally, in the beginning...i could probably give them now.


----------



## Paws&Tails (Sep 3, 2010)

I've run into a slight problem. He won't eat. He only ate one or two meals of the turkey drumstick meat chunked up and then he just stopped. Sunday night he grudgingly ate one piece after 20 minutes for dinner. He grudgingly ate one piece yesterday night for dinner. He's yet to eat anything today. I just had a brilliant thought that maybe he doesn't like actual chunks of meat * cold*, because he certainly likes the meat. He'll lick it and the plate, but he won't eat it. So I'm going to try and warm it up for his lunch. I'm hoping it works. *crosses fingers*


----------



## DaneMama (Jun 27, 2008)

I would soak it in warm water to warm it for him. You don't want to cook it at all....


----------



## Paws&Tails (Sep 3, 2010)

danemama08 said:


> I would soak it in warm water to warm it for him. You don't want to cook it at all....


I put the baggie in a bowl of warm water to warm it up. 
He walked over, sniffed it and walked away. I kept it out for 30 minutes. He never ate it. So I stuck it back in the fridge. 
It's a little frustrating. I can't figure out why he won't eat it.


----------



## DaneMama (Jun 27, 2008)

He's being picky. Just keep up with tough love. It took my girls like three days in a row of nothing to eat for them to give in. Now you'd never know they were picky eaters now though. I'm so glad I stuck with it and didn't give into them.


----------



## Paws&Tails (Sep 3, 2010)

He didn't eat anything yesterday, and nothing so far today. When do I start worrying about him getting sick or something from not eating? 
He's a really stubborn dog. I think he's probably just holding out.


----------



## jdatwood (Apr 13, 2009)

Paws&Tails said:


> He didn't eat anything yesterday, and nothing so far today. When do I start worrying about him getting sick or something from not eating?
> He's a really stubborn dog. I think he's probably just holding out.


How long has it been?

Our girls went 5 days when trying to introduce fish


----------



## DaneMama (Jun 27, 2008)

Paws&Tails said:


> He didn't eat anything yesterday, and nothing so far today. When do I start worrying about him getting sick or something from not eating?
> He's a really stubborn dog. I think he's probably just holding out.


Oh it certainly hasn't been too long yet. Give it more time! 

ETA: How much does he weigh? It's not good to fast dogs that are under ten pounds for too long....


----------



## Paws&Tails (Sep 3, 2010)

jdatwood said:


> How long has it been?
> 
> Our girls went 5 days when trying to introduce fish


He ate a little piece on Sunday night. He ate a little piece again Monday night. Since then, nothing.



danemama08 said:


> Oh it certainly hasn't been too long yet. Give it more time!
> 
> ETA: How much does he weigh? It's not good to fast dogs that are under ten pounds for too long....


He weighs 21 pounds (JRT mix).


----------



## DaneMama (Jun 27, 2008)

Oh then definitely hold out a bit longer...JRTs are some of the most stubborn dogs out there!


----------



## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

Paws&Tails said:


> I've run into a slight problem. He won't eat. He only ate one or two meals of the turkey drumstick meat chunked up and then he just stopped. Sunday night he grudgingly ate one piece after 20 minutes for dinner. He grudgingly ate one piece yesterday night for dinner. He's yet to eat anything today. I just had a brilliant thought that maybe he doesn't like actual chunks of meat * cold*, because he certainly likes the meat. He'll lick it and the plate, but he won't eat it. So I'm going to try and warm it up for his lunch. I'm hoping it works. *crosses fingers*


has he been eating boney meals without issue?

is it possible he has a cavity or a gum issue?

has he had his teeth checked recently?


----------



## Paws&Tails (Sep 3, 2010)

magicre said:


> has he been eating boney meals without issue?
> 
> is it possible he has a cavity or a gum issue?
> 
> has he had his teeth checked recently?



I haven't tried bone-in meals yet. I had the turkey drumsticks before I realized he couldn't eat the bone, so I chunked it off the bone and was feeding him that.

No, no teeth or gum issues. He has a check-up coming within a month (and he's been to the vet within the last 5 months).


----------



## DaneMama (Jun 27, 2008)

No bone in meals yet??? Hmmm....have you tried feeding him chicken wings or drummies all smashed up with a hammer yet? He may not know what to do with whole raw bones.


----------



## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

are you still giving him bone meal?


----------



## Paws&Tails (Sep 3, 2010)

danemama08 said:


> No bone in meals yet??? Hmmm....have you tried feeding him chicken wings or drummies all smashed up with a hammer yet? He may not know what to do with whole raw bones.


That's my next step....We're going shopping later and I'm going to pick up some bone in chicken. 



magicre said:


> are you still giving him bone meal?


Yes, I am still giving bone meal (though he isn't eating it because he's not eating his food).


----------



## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

i have an 18 lb. pug. we started him on chicken backs, minus skin and excess fat and organs....

your 21 lb. JRT should be able to eat chicken drumsticks without a problem.....if his stools are loose, take the skin off.....although backs are a softer bones...

another thing we do is buy whole chickens...and i cut the meat off the frame for us and then use the frame for bone, leaving some meat on....


----------



## whiteleo (Sep 7, 2008)

I have terriers and the last rescue is a pain in the a**, she won't eat chicken, but will steal it from her siblings all the time, one thing I did find she'll eat is chicken necks, they are a softer bone and easy to crunch. They weigh in at 60, 70, and 49 lbs and have no issues with eating chicken necks but I always , always watch my dogs eat. Good Luck with the JRT.


----------



## Paws&Tails (Sep 3, 2010)

Still hasn't eaten anything. For tonight's dinner I'm trying out some chicken wings (couldn't find any chicken backs or necks). I'm really hoping he'll eat tonight.


----------



## DaneMama (Jun 27, 2008)

Try smashing them up with a hammer first.


----------



## Mia (Oct 4, 2010)

danemama08 said:


> Try smashing them up with a hammer first.


Seriousily? LOL

Oh boy if I had a bad day....LOL (bring ON some MEAT baby!):biggrin:


----------



## DaneMama (Jun 27, 2008)

Rye&Ted said:


> Seriousily? LOL
> 
> Oh boy if I had a bad day....LOL (bring ON some MEAT baby!):biggrin:


Yep! It's a great way to help new raw eaters take to eating raw bones.


----------



## Mia (Oct 4, 2010)

Great way to relieve stress...er... too LOL.


----------



## Paws&Tails (Sep 3, 2010)

I'm getting ready to feed him right now. I'll hammer it. I definitely need to blow off some stress right now...


----------



## Mia (Oct 4, 2010)

Paws&Tails said:


> I'm getting ready to feed him right now. I'll hammer it. I definitely need to blow off some stress right now...


Bang a few for ME! :biggrin:


----------



## Paws&Tails (Sep 3, 2010)

Rye&Ted said:


> Bang a few for ME! :biggrin:



Hahaha! I did. :biggrin:
He still didn't eat....Sheesh! How long is this dog going to hold out for?! He's definitely a very stubborn dog.


----------



## Mia (Oct 4, 2010)

Be patient. What are you feeding?


----------



## Paws&Tails (Sep 3, 2010)

Rye&Ted said:


> Be patient. What are you feeding?



I had been offering him chunks of turkey meat. Last night I offered him a chicken wing (that I had banged with a hammer) since I obviously want him eating bone.


----------



## DaneMama (Jun 27, 2008)

I would not offer him the turkey anymore. Just the smashed up chicken wing.


----------



## Paws&Tails (Sep 3, 2010)

danemama08 said:


> I would not offer him the turkey anymore. Just the smashed up chicken wing.


Yeah, I threw away what was left of the turkey.


----------



## Mia (Oct 4, 2010)

How is going now with the chicken wing?


----------



## Paws&Tails (Sep 3, 2010)

Still hasn't eaten anything. Stubborn, picky dog.


----------



## DaneMama (Jun 27, 2008)

How long has it been?


----------



## Paws&Tails (Sep 3, 2010)

danemama08 said:


> How long has it been?


Monday night. So five days.


----------



## DaneMama (Jun 27, 2008)

Ok....well, if he doesn't give in tomorrow I would try something different.

With the chicken wing you've smashed up already, try cutting it up into tiny bite sized chunks too small that he could ever choke on. Try putting a small bit in his mouth, but not shoving it down his throat. Maybe if you can get the taste of it in his mouth he will go for it.

You should also try soaking the meat in hot water for a few minutes to increase the temperature to make it a bit more palatable. 

Keep me posted!


----------



## Mia (Oct 4, 2010)

I guess some dogs are really picky! LOL. My boys took them a day. I mean they literally went for it! The first few hours were quite interesting, they weren't sure but once I sat down and fed them the meats by hand they were like OH ok. so we CAN have this? LOL.


----------



## Paws&Tails (Sep 3, 2010)

danemama08 said:


> Ok....well, if he doesn't give in tomorrow I would try something different.
> 
> With the chicken wing you've smashed up already, try cutting it up into tiny bite sized chunks too small that he could ever choke on. Try putting a small bit in his mouth, but not shoving it down his throat. Maybe if you can get the taste of it in his mouth he will go for it.
> 
> ...


I'll try doing that at lunch time. He didn't eat this morning, either. He's literally the most stubborn dog I know.

I'll definitely keep you posted!





Rye&Ted said:


> I guess some dogs are really picky! LOL. My boys took them a day. I mean they literally went for it! The first few hours were quite interesting, they weren't sure but once I sat down and fed them the meats by hand they were like OH ok. so we CAN have this? LOL.


Lol!


----------



## sassymaxmom (Dec 7, 2008)

Go easy on him. As an allergic human I am very scared to try new foods that resemble stuff I am allergic to. He probably doesn't want to get a tummy ache.

I might go the cat routine. Put a chunk of raw meat with his usual food. Once he eats that put in 2 chunks. 

Or buy the chicken and make a stew with it using egg shell for calcium and 25% by weight fibrous veggies for bulk. Over time I would sneak in a bit of raw meat. If he goes for that continue. Then sneak in a tiny smashed up bit of chicken neck, make it larger and less smashed as he figures out he likes it and his tummy doesn't hurt. Chances are he will have a point where he will figure it out and you can go right to the raw and skip the fun raw meat with veggies stage altogether. Boning and chopping raw meat is not fun.


----------



## Mia (Oct 4, 2010)

Arent you suppose to wait 12 hours for kibble and raw (feed some raw and 12 hours later feed kibble? Or is doesn't matter? Or can you mix it? Maybe if you mix a tiny bit with kibble will that do? Maybe put chicken broth or beef broth with it? What about grounding it for the first few times? Feeding it by hand? I don't know just a few suggestions. Throwing some ideas out there.


----------



## sassymaxmom (Dec 7, 2008)

That is a myth. Raw meat and kibble are fine together if raw meat is fine and kibble is fine. How many people mix raw egg with kibble? I would hope it wouldn't be necessary for smashed necks and kibble to be fed but I doubt there would be a problem there either.


----------



## DaneMama (Jun 27, 2008)

It's ok to mix raw and kibble for *some* dogs. Dogs that have systems of steel can handle it well, but dogs with sensitive systems usually can't handle it. Personally I would go with either raw or kibble and not both. Since you've come this far with him I would continue to stick it out until he will eat raw.

If he shows no interest in the chicken all day today try feeding pork ribs instead. You'll want to smash up the ribs as much as possible for him in the beginning so that he handles the bones better. Usually dogs will go for pork ribs right off the bat. But pork is a richer meat than chicken and *can* be harder for dogs to adjust to but just be patient and give it time and he'll do great.


----------



## spookychick13 (Jan 26, 2010)

danemama08 said:


> I would still fast him.
> 
> He may he intolerant to cooked chicken but not raw chicken. I have seen dogs that have been diagnosed allergic to chicken do fabulous on raw chicken. I think you should give chicken a chance and go from there. There are other alternatives but chicken is easy to digest, easy to find and cheap.


For sure!

My cav was allergy tested and came out high positive for pork. However, he can eat raw pork no problem, but one bit of cooked pork and he's itching like mad.
The proteins change when cooked.


----------



## Paws&Tails (Sep 3, 2010)

I discovered that he just has _*no *_ idea what the heck to do with one bigger piece of meat. He licked it and kind of handled it oddly in his mouth a little, but gave up and walked away. He just doesn't know what to do to eat it. I cut it up into smaller pieces and hammered the bone into pieces. I warmed it up in a baggy in warm water and put it on his plate. He ate the meat!!!! :biggrin: But he did not eat the pieces of bone. I don't think he knows what to do with bone. Any ideas on how to get him to eat bone?


----------



## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

Paws&Tails said:


> I discovered that he just has _*no *_ idea what the heck to do with one bigger piece of meat. He licked it and kind of handled it oddly in his mouth a little, but gave up and walked away. He just doesn't know what to do to eat it. I cut it up into smaller pieces and hammered the bone into pieces. I warmed it up in a baggy in warm water and put it on his plate. He ate the meat!!!! :biggrin: But he did not eat the pieces of bone. I don't think he knows what to do with bone. Any ideas on how to get him to eat bone?


has he had pork ribs yet?

and since he ate the meat, i guess he's not adverse to eating raw...you could take those chunks you cut up for him and, over time, make them bigger and bigger...


----------



## Paws&Tails (Sep 3, 2010)

magicre said:


> has he had pork ribs yet?
> 
> and since he ate the meat, i guess he's not adverse to eating raw...you could take those chunks you cut up for him and, over time, make them bigger and bigger...


No, he has not had pork ribs. Just turkey drumstick meat. And now a chicken wing, minus the bone.


----------



## Mia (Oct 4, 2010)

I commend you for your patience! BIG THUMBS UP!


----------



## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

Paws&Tails said:


> No, he has not had pork ribs. Just turkey drumstick meat. And now a chicken wing, minus the bone.


he reminds me of a dog that needs to learn how to eat....

like my malia, who would look at me as if to say you want me to work at eating?


----------



## DaneMama (Jun 27, 2008)

Maybe try holding the smashed up wing in one piece to see if he will gnaw on I while you're holding it. So far he's making good progress!


----------



## Paws&Tails (Sep 3, 2010)

He ate the bone!!!!!! Finally!! I ripped the meat off the bone and left it in silver dollar size hunks (skin, connective tissue and all) and banged the bones up a little bit with a hammer, warmed it up, put it down and he ate it all!!

I have noticed that it has to be the perfect temperature or he won't eat it.

ETA-
I'll try holding the wing up to see if he'll gnaw on it tomorrow for breakfast.


----------



## DaneMama (Jun 27, 2008)

WOOHOOO!!!!! I knew your patience would pay off! Now its the hard work of getting him to eat the raw with no intervention from you, meaning cold and intact LOL

Keep us posted!


----------



## Paws&Tails (Sep 3, 2010)

Okay....So, today he ate it _intact_ bone and all! *BUT* I still had to warm it up and he still insists on having the supplement sprinkled on it that we used when he was eating cooked food.


----------



## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

do you think cold bothers his teeth?

and good for you.....

maybe, over time, you can sprinkle less and less of the supp...unless you're giving it to him for a reason...in which case, i'm shutting up now


----------



## Paws&Tails (Sep 3, 2010)

magicre said:


> do you think cold bothers his teeth?
> 
> and good for you.....
> 
> maybe, over time, you can sprinkle less and less of the supp...unless you're giving it to him for a reason...in which case, i'm shutting up now



Could be. He'll pick it up in his mouth and drop it like he was caught red handed if it's cold.

Good idea about the supplement. He doesn't really need it, but it's certainly not harming him.


----------



## RawFedDogs (Jun 16, 2008)

Paws&Tails said:


> Could be. He'll pick it up in his mouth and drop it like he was caught red handed if it's cold.


Are you talking about warming it up to room temp or beyond room temp?


----------



## Paws&Tails (Sep 3, 2010)

RawFedDogs said:


> Are you talking about warming it up to room temp or beyond room temp?



A little bit above room temp, but not by much. Just enough to take the chill off of it and to make it a tad bit warm. I put the food into a sandwich bag and the sandwich bag in a bowl of warm water.


----------



## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

Paws&Tails said:


> A little bit above room temp, but not by much. Just enough to take the chill off of it and to make it a tad bit warm. I put the food into a sandwich bag and the sandwich bag in a bowl of warm water.


but not enough to start cooking the bone, right?


----------



## Mia (Oct 4, 2010)

Are you asking because cooked bone - is bad for dogs (just curious)


----------



## Paws&Tails (Sep 3, 2010)

magicre said:


> but not enough to start cooking the bone, right?



Oh no no no! Definitely not long enough to even _start_ to cook the bone! It's still soft and raw.


----------



## Ania's Mommy (Feb 8, 2009)

Rye&Ted said:


> Are you asking because cooked bone - is bad for dogs (just curious)


Cooked bones are absolutely bad for dogs. They can splinter very easily when cooked. Whereas when they are raw, they just break naturally. (That's a weird explanation, but my point is no cooked bones!)


----------



## sassymaxmom (Dec 7, 2008)

Wow, he is doing great. Don't worry about it, he will drop the warming up and sprinkles soon.


----------



## Paws&Tails (Sep 3, 2010)

I no longer have to put the supplement on it. He's still very insistent on it being warmed. Other than that everything's going great!


----------



## Mia (Oct 4, 2010)

Yay!!!!:redface:


----------



## DaneMama (Jun 27, 2008)

Woohoo! I was confident that the tough love would pay off! So to wean him off of warming it...warm it less and less over the next couple of days or weeks. Hopefully he will get to the point of not caring whether its warm or not!


----------



## Mia (Oct 4, 2010)

What a good pup! Gotta take some pictures!!!


----------



## Paws&Tails (Sep 3, 2010)

danemama08 said:


> Woohoo! I was confident that the tough love would pay off! So to wean him off of warming it...warm it less and less over the next couple of days or weeks. Hopefully he will get to the point of not caring whether its warm or not!


I think it'll have to be over weeks. I tried warming it to just take the chill off of it and he wouldn't eat it.



Rye&Ted said:


> What a good pup! Gotta take some pictures!!!


I'll try to get some pics at lunch or dinner. :wink:


----------



## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

since they'll be on this diet over a lifetime, what's a few weeks....in the scheme of things...

i still have to wonder if his teeth or gums bother him..or maybe he's like my husband and just has a sensitivity to cold....


----------



## Mia (Oct 4, 2010)

Good point, do you think dential check up would help the matter any? Finding out if that is the cause?


----------



## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

Rye&Ted said:


> Good point, do you think dential check up would help the matter any? Finding out if that is the cause?


i honestly believe that what you're doing should take care of things....if a few weeks go by and there is no progress, then i would consider having a check up...

the reason i bring it up is because my malia had a cavity that we didn't know about.....and why would we since her english isn't so hot....

she was still kibble fed and we noticed she wasn't eating..and this dog is a foodie...

we took her to the vet, had a dental cleaning.....and he called to ask permission to pull the tooth because as he stated --- she had a cavity that was so deep, he swore it went to her brain.....i'm sure he was being tongue in cheek....

but i truly believe that newly transitioned dogs have gingivitis, probably mild...and even tooth sensitivity, because how much cold food do they eat for real....kibble is dry and room temp and cooked, well, it's cooked...


----------



## Paws&Tails (Sep 3, 2010)

magicre said:


> i honestly believe that what you're doing should take care of things....if a few weeks go by and there is no progress, then i would consider having a check up...
> 
> the reason i bring it up is because my malia had a cavity that we didn't know about.....and why would we since her english isn't so hot....
> 
> ...



If it's still bothering him in a few weeks I'll mention it at the vets. He's got a check up coming up in a few weeks anyways. 


Question. Just an hour or so ago he vomited what my sister said appeared to be liquid and egg shells?? He couldn't have possibly gotten ahold of any egg shells. The trash can is under the sink.


----------



## DaneMama (Jun 27, 2008)

It's probably just small pieces of bone. It takes a while for most adult dogs to be able to fully digest raw bones. This ability comes with time because you have to remember that up until this point his body has been digesting processed kibble and needs time to adjust to digesting raw, whole foods. For an adult dog it takes nearly 6 months to become fully adjusted to eating and digesting raw foods. Don't panic!


----------



## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

danemama08 said:


> It's probably just small pieces of bone. It takes a while for most adult dogs to be able to fully digest raw bones. This ability comes with time because you have to remember that up until this point his body has been digesting processed kibble and needs time to adjust to digesting raw, whole foods. For an adult dog it takes nearly 6 months to become fully adjusted to eating and digesting raw foods. Don't panic!


you are so right, natalie....mine are now seven months in...and i'm just seeing the beginnings of adaptation.....


----------



## hbwright (Jul 14, 2010)

You are the picture of persistence. Good for you. When we first started I would see chunks of bone in the stool and Jordan would vomit whole meals from gulping. It didn't take long before he could swallow a whole chicken quarter with 2 chomps and it would come out the other end completely digested. My other dog took a little longer to adjust but now can eat anything.


----------



## Paws&Tails (Sep 3, 2010)

hbwright said:


> You are the picture of persistence. Good for you. When we first started I would see chunks of bone in the stool and Jordan would vomit whole meals from gulping. *It didn't take long before he could swallow a whole chicken quarter with 2 chomps* and it would come out the other end completely digested. My other dog took a little longer to adjust but now can eat anything.




Spike's not much of a gulper. He chews it quite a bit before swallowing.


----------



## hbwright (Jul 14, 2010)

I wish Jordan would. I try to get him whole racks of ribs when I can to at least get some teeth benefit for him. He seems to chew smaller things like pigs feet too and turkey necks. Not much, but at least some. I don't think the 2-3 chomps provides much in the way of dental benefit.


----------



## jdatwood (Apr 13, 2009)

Try to find chicken frames. Find something larger than the quarters


----------



## hbwright (Jul 14, 2010)

I'm obviously not that persistent. He won't eat them. LOL. I often get them whole hen, good meal sizes. Won't eat rabbit either which I try whole. The large things that he does eat he does the same thing as soon as it is down to managable size. He'll chew good on a rack of ribs until it gets down to 2-3 ribs and then down the hatch it goes. I have started cutting up the organs because he's swallowed a whole beef heart and beef kidney before, mostly frozen.


----------



## jdatwood (Apr 13, 2009)

A WHOLE beef heart? Those things weigh like 10lbs each


----------



## hbwright (Jul 14, 2010)

This was not 10 pounds. It was around 2 pounds, calf? It did not appear to be cut in any way. He did the same thing that he usually does, chomp, chomp, swallow. The kidneys are huge and he does them too. I now cut them while they are still somewhat frozen and give them as a mixed organ meal sometimes with fish and raw egg. I have since found beef heart that is sliced, similar to liver. Those I'll give him a whole slice.


----------



## Mia (Oct 4, 2010)

hbwright said:


> This was not 10 pounds. It was around 2 pounds, calf? It did not appear to be cut in any way. He did the same thing that he usually does, chomp, chomp, swallow. The kidneys are huge and he does them too. I now cut them while they are still somewhat frozen and give them as a mixed organ meal sometimes with fish and raw egg. I have since found beef heart that is sliced, similar to liver. Those I'll give him a whole slice.


Just make sure you only give beef heart 2 times a week. I read somewhere that it is full of taurine.


----------



## spookychick13 (Jan 26, 2010)

Rye&Ted said:


> Just make sure you only give beef heart 2 times a week. I read somewhere that it is full of taurine.


Really? Only twice a week? Ugh, I buy one and feed it for a few days in a row until it's gone.


----------



## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

Rye&Ted said:


> Just make sure you only give beef heart 2 times a week. I read somewhere that it is full of taurine.


if you don't mind me asking, why is taurine bad for dogs?


----------



## sassymaxmom (Dec 7, 2008)

Taurine is good for dogs. Some dogs have heart disease that is managed by supplementing taurine. Some dogs have seizures that disappear when taurine is supplemented.

You might check your dog's toy box for some rubber object with a hole in it that you can shove an end of the bony bit in. I can fit the knobby end of a chicken wing or foot into the small kongs laying around the house and the dogs will gnaw down to the knob instead of trying to pull the bony bit out of the kong. I did this for Artie's first chicken foot and it worked great. Forgot to do it for the second foot but lucked out as he respected the foot and didn't try to gulp it down. You might be able to cut the heart and thread it through a rubber toy as well or stuff part of it into a toy and freeze for a couple hours to firm it up so it doesn't just get pulled out when it is still in one big bit. Use a rubber toy that is sized for your gulper!


----------



## Paws&Tails (Sep 3, 2010)

He's happily eating drumsticks and wings. :biggrin: I think I'm going to try turkey necks next.

His poop is FINALLY solid, _no more itching_ and his teeth are cleaner! He's never _not_ been itching. Ever since we adopted him last November he's been constantly scratching and biting himself raw. Twice to the point of bleeding. We were told it was because of a flea allergy, but it wasn't. I realized that about two months ago. He would still itch even on a cooked homemade diet.


----------



## DaneMama (Jun 27, 2008)

This is awesome news! Aren't you glad you stuck it out?! It was tough but totally worth it in the end?! 

Just remember there is no rush. Take it nice and slow. Now that hes eating on his own free will I would restart your initial two weeks now. So two weeks from now add in turkey.


----------



## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

that's the best news ever.....


----------



## Paws&Tails (Sep 3, 2010)

danemama08 said:


> This is awesome news! Aren't you glad you stuck it out?! It was tough but totally worth it in the end?!
> 
> Just remember there is no rush. Take it nice and slow. Now that hes eating on his own free will I would restart your initial two weeks now. So two weeks from now add in turkey.




So glad!! This just shows that patience and persistence pays off in the end!

I'll def. restart the time period.


----------



## SerenityFL (Sep 28, 2010)

Paws&Tails said:


> He's happily eating drumsticks and wings. :biggrin: I think I'm going to try turkey necks next.
> 
> His poop is FINALLY solid, _no more itching_ and his teeth are cleaner! He's never _not_ been itching. Ever since we adopted him last November he's been constantly scratching and biting himself raw. Twice to the point of bleeding. We were told it was because of a flea allergy, but it wasn't. I realized that about two months ago. He would still itch even on a cooked homemade diet.


Hurray! Good job being so consistent and persistent when it would have been easier to give in. 

(By the way, I know they are stubborn and have endless, bouncy energy but JRTs are some of my most favorite dogs, evah!! I adore them. Absolutely adore them. Even their stubborn nature is part of their charm.)


----------



## hbwright (Jul 14, 2010)

Paws&Tails said:


> He's happily eating drumsticks and wings. :biggrin: I think I'm going to try turkey necks next.
> 
> His poop is FINALLY solid, _no more itching_ and his teeth are cleaner! He's never _not_ been itching. Ever since we adopted him last November he's been constantly scratching and biting himself raw. Twice to the point of bleeding. We were told it was because of a flea allergy, but it wasn't. I realized that about two months ago. He would still itch even on a cooked homemade diet.


It sounds like this diet is just what he needed. What a great testimony!!!!


----------



## Paws&Tails (Sep 3, 2010)

I'm trying out turkey necks tomorrow...wish me luck! He just loves his chicken! He even started getting protective of it. Now that is something he would have never done with commercial food. I quickly nipped that at the bud, though.


----------



## Paws&Tails (Sep 3, 2010)

Still haven't tried turkey necks....I completely forgot to pull them out of the freezer. They're thawed already, so I'm going to cut them into the proper proportions tonight. 

He is finally eating it cold!


----------



## DaneMama (Jun 27, 2008)

Awesome! I knew over time he would. Keep up the good work!


----------



## Paws&Tails (Sep 3, 2010)

Okay...having a little trouble. I think it's because he's not sure what it is and how to eat it as it's a different shape then the chicken he was eating. Should I not feed him anything until he eats the neck or feed him chicken at his chicken meals and just keep offering turkey at his turkey meals?

I have a feeling this is going to happen with every new thing I try.


----------



## RawFedDogs (Jun 16, 2008)

No, its not going to happen with everything you try. What is he doing? Is he playing with it or just walking away? If he's walking away, wait 15 minutes then put it back in the fridge and feed it next meal. If he's playing with it, let him play, he will figure it out. I'm not sure how old your pup is but if he is adult or nearly an adult just don't feed anything else until he eats the turkey. It gets easier, believe me. :biggrin:


----------



## SerenityFL (Sep 28, 2010)

Paws&Tails said:


> Okay...having a little trouble. I think it's because he's not sure what it is and how to eat it as it's a different shape then the chicken he was eating. Should I not feed him anything until he eats the neck or feed him chicken at his chicken meals and just keep offering turkey at his turkey meals?
> 
> I have a feeling this is going to happen with every new thing I try.


It will get easier over time.

I wanted to congratulate you again on being consistent and persistent. I know what it's like to have a stubborn dog, that girl hoodlum is stubborn. STUB! BORN! (Not with food, thankfully, but with her training.)

Boy hoodlum does everything I ask, eager to please, makes my life a breeze.

She? She makes me crazy. She gets me frustrated. She tests my patience. She makes life hard. She takes a lot of time. Not because she's stupid but because she's so smart.

I'm a pretty strong person and I rarely ever give up on anything but there have been times when I've been ready to give up. At the last second I'll tell myself no, I'm not giving up. Keep at this...eventually, it's going to work. The rewards will be so. fricken. worth it.

It's hard sometimes. I hate to put her in her crate when she's misbehaved. I'm sure you didn't have fun putting the dog's food away when he didn't eat it. We want them to eat, we want them to listen, we want them to get it and be happy and healthy and sometimes that takes a lot of time, a lot of time, a LOT of time, an extreme amount of patience, tough love and consistency. It takes perseverance. 

And then, one day? You realize, it's all working. All your hard work is now yielding results and you think back to how much time and effort you put in and say, "Yah. Stubborn @$$ dog....you made me sweat and bleed for this...but look at you now. You're awesome."

So many people give up. You have not. I'm so proud of you.


----------



## Paws&Tails (Sep 3, 2010)

RawFedDogs said:


> No, its not going to happen with everything you try. What is he doing? Is he playing with it or just walking away? If he's walking away, wait 15 minutes then put it back in the fridge and feed it next meal. If he's playing with it, let him play, he will figure it out. I'm not sure how old your pup is but if he is adult or nearly an adult just don't feed anything else until he eats the turkey. It gets easier, believe me. :biggrin:


He's kind of mouthing it and then walks away. He's 6. I think he might eat it sooner than he took to eat chicken. He's just not sure about it.



SerenityFL said:


> It will get easier over time.
> 
> I wanted to congratulate you again on being consistent and persistent. I know what it's like to have a stubborn dog, that girl hoodlum is stubborn. STUB! BORN! (Not with food, thankfully, but with her training.)
> 
> ...



Thank you for the encouragement! :biggrin: I'm a pretty stubborn person myself. He's pretty stubborn with training as well, but he's _really_ smart. I've felt like giving up a few times with training but I'll tell myself "No, you can't do that. It'll just take even longer and get even more frustrating if you give up." He's never eaten well on commercial food. Ever. He wouldn't eat much and would shove his bowl around and grudgingly eat a few bites before walking away. Even with canned food. His breath stank horribly and his teeth were definitely not pearly white. Plus all of the constant itching and sore spots. All of that has changed in only a few short weeks of being off of commercial and cooked homemade foods. I do get frustrated when he won't eat it but know I won't ever give up.


----------



## DaneMama (Jun 27, 2008)

Just do tough love again with this protein, and any other that he turns his nose up to. He will get it eventually. And with each new addition he will figure it out faster.


----------



## Paws&Tails (Sep 3, 2010)

He's eating it! It took him a little while to figure out how to eat it, but he's now eating it! :biggrin:


----------



## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

some dogs adapt faster than others. my malia is very suspicious and circles and walks away, licks, walks away.....but eventually 'dances with food' pug influences her. i guess she thinks he's going to finish faster and take it.

he's not used to raw..and nothing about him physiologically or mentally is prepared for raw.....it's the dawn of a whole new age for him ....viva la raw!


----------



## Paws&Tails (Sep 3, 2010)

We ran into a few problems with him eating turkey but he's finally eating it well. I'm going to add fish in next. What are the best kinds of fish?


----------



## DaneMama (Jun 27, 2008)

I would see if he will even eat raw fish before you invest in any...but I would only get fish that is low in mercury and other heavy metals. There's a thread onhere somewhere...

ETA: there ya go!

http://dogfoodchat.com/forum/dry-canned-dog-food/4181-supplementing-fish-food.html


----------



## Paws&Tails (Sep 3, 2010)

I bought some wild-caught salmon and offered it to him for dinner tonight. He LOVES it! Yay! I put it down for him and he gobbled it up and looked at me for more.


----------



## Artisanal pet (Aug 26, 2010)

Paws&Tails said:


> I bought some wild-caught salmon and offered it to him for dinner tonight. He LOVES it! Yay! I put it down for him and he gobbled it up and looked at me for more.


I was just wondering. Are you also using the skin of the salmon?


----------



## Paws&Tails (Sep 3, 2010)

Artisanal pet said:


> I was just wondering. Are you also using the skin of the salmon?


It does have skin on it. I wasn't able to find any with bones though.


----------



## Paws&Tails (Sep 3, 2010)

I completely forgot what bones they shouldn't eat. Amongst other things I purchased some bone-in beef chuck short ribs. Can he eat the bone?

So far he's on chicken, turkey, fish, rabbit and beef. He took to fish, rabbit and beef immediately and did awesome. No runny poos etc. 

I bought some chicken liver and heart and will be adding that in next week. 
I'm crossing my fingers that he will eat organs!


----------



## sassymaxmom (Dec 7, 2008)

The short ribs round these parts are ~4" long, have a thick rib bone and are very meaty. They are just short enough to be swallowed whole after the meat is gone and most dogs aren't safe breaking up this bone. 

I love feeding the BBQ rib racks, the spine end is chewed on and they are too long for Max to consider swallowing whole.

If I had any I would be cutting the meat off and throwing away the bone for Max at least. Perhaps some dogs would be fine.


----------

