# Good vs. Bad Dog Food, what do you feed your dogs?



## greyshadows (Jan 30, 2012)

New to the forums and want to know what most here feed their dogs. Not sure what good dog food is anymore since the 2008 recalls where we found out that supposed great foods were made in the same factories as the cheapest supermarket brands. I saw a few sick and dying dogs with that recall and I told myself I would never feed any of those brands to my pups. Then I began the long journey to find food. Fortunately I have a friend who repairs pellet machines and he goes into many plants and his stories would horrify you. I know the best food is home cooked but realistically I don't always have the time, but I do try. I tried Halo because it was never recalled and it looked decent. Unfortunately though my one Weimaraner has a problem with some probiotics so I had to stop using it. Then I looked into Orijen but my vet said the protein count was high so they would have to be periodically tested for liver issues, no thanks! Now I am using Purina Selects Turkey and Barley. Some of you will say yuck but it is fairly decent (no wheat, corn or soy) my dogs look and act great. Plus as I mentioned above my friend has worked in the Purina plants and he says you can eat off the floor there. I rambled on a bit but for now that is what my Weimaraners eat. How about your dogs? What are your thoughts on brands of foods?


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## MissusMac (Jan 6, 2011)

I feed my dog prey model raw, a species-appropriate diet. My thoughts on the brands of dog food out there today are not very high. Sure, some are better than others but now that I know what I do about dry dog food I could never, in good conscience, feed it again.


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## Sprocket (Oct 4, 2011)

I feed raw animal parts. Mostly muscle meats, fat, bone and organs. There is the odd part like eye balls and brains. They like those too :smile:


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## biancaDB (Nov 3, 2011)

This forum has given me the confidence to feed a PMR (raw) diet when I get the new pup. Like MissusMac said, now that I know all about dry pet food I will never feed it after I've successfully transitioned my cat to raw. After joining this board, I just think of a piece of kibble and a piece of raw chicken and I know which one makes more sense :smile:


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## ciaBrysh (Dec 16, 2011)

I feed PMR but before that I have fed the following kibbles 
Raj started with Science diet (back when I was naive and just got him from the shelter) then over to TOTW 
Willow was on TOTW from day one until I switched both dogs to Raw just over a month ago.


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## PDXdogmom (Jun 30, 2010)

You posted in the "dry and canned" forum; so I assume you're looking for some answers by those who also feed kibble.

I've tried dozens of brands for a variety of reasons. My current thinking: There is no company that is 100% reliable, but some are more reliable than others. You don't have to pay a ton to get a decent dog kibble. There is too much "window-dressing" to many kibbles in that having eggplant, figs, lemon balm, watercress, pear, etc. is all about appealing to the human. Moderation of proteins and fats works best for many dogs. I would pay extra to not have certain ingredients in a dog kibble. I'm leaning toward the "simpler is better" theory. And finally, there is a huge variation of opinion about all this.


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## Unosmom (May 3, 2009)

I fed variety of kibble starting with nutro, then slowly switching over to grain free which included rotation of acana, natures variety, earthborn, taste of the wild, blue buffalo wilderness, etc. Out of those my dog did best on acana. I decided to switch to raw 4 months ago and so far he's been doing well. More energy, better muscle tone, cleaner teeth, smaller poops, nice coat, so I dont plan on switching anytime soon unless I wont be able to afford it for some reason(thanks to craigslist and freecycle I get most of the meat for free). 

My main issue with Purina is their deceptive advertisement (most brands skew the truth to some extent), for example, look at the ingredients of the food you feed:

Turkey, brewers rice, pearled barley, chicken meal (natural source of glucosamine), corn gluten meal, oat meal, animal fat preserved with mixed-tocopherols (form of Vitamin E), dried egg product, fish meal (natural source of glucosamine), pea fiber, dried beet pulp, fish oil, animal digest, calcium phosphate, potassium chloride, salt, L-Lysine monohydrochloride, calcium carbonate, dried tomatoes, blueberry pomace, dried sweet potatoes, Vitamin E supplement, zinc proteinate, manganese proteinate, choline chloride, ferrous sulfate, L-ascorbyl-2-polyphosphate (source of Vitamin C), niacin, copper proteinate, Vitamin A supplement, calcium pantothenate, thiamine mononitrate, riboflavin supplement, Vitamin B-12 supplement, pyridoxine hydrochloride, garlic oil, folic acid, Vitamin D-3 supplement, calcium iodate, biotin, menadione sodium bisulfite complex (source of Vitamin K activity), sodium selenite. 

First ingredient is turkey, but keep in mind that ingredients are listed based on weight prior to extrusion, since meat is 80% water, once its cooked, it slides down the list. So you are primarily feeding brewers rice, barley and little bit of chicken meal. 

*Brewers rice*-dried extracted rice residue resulting from manufacture of beer or wort

*corn gluten*- dried corn residue after nutritious germ is extracted for human consumption, inferior source of protein.

*animal digest*-A cooked-down broth made from specified or unspecified parts of animals (depending on the type of digest used). If the source is unspecified (e.g. "Animal" or "Poultry", the animals used can be obtained from any source, so there is no control over quality or contamination. Any kind of animal can be included: "4-D animals" (dead, diseased, disabled, or dying prior to slaughter), goats, pigs, horses, rats, miscellaneous roadkill, animals euthanized at shelters, restaurant and supermarket refuse and so on

*animal fat*- fat of uknown origin, can include rancid restaurant grease or worse. 

*Menadione bisulfite complex*- theres a lot of controversy surrounding this ingredient, its been banned from human consumption due to liver toxicity but still used in pet food as an inexpensive source of vit k. 

I would not have had as much of a problem with this food if it went something like this : Turkey, chicken meal, barley, oatmeal chicken fat... etc, but it has a lot of iffy ingredients that most people overlook because they see turkey listed as the first ingredient and thats all they base their opinion on. 

And for $50 a bag, its highly overpriced for what it contains.


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## Jacksons Mom (Jun 13, 2010)

As far as me trusting kibble companies, I at least 90% trust Champion (Acana/Orijen), Fromm and Go! and Now! (made by Petceruan pet foods). I am currently feeding Acana with good results. Less protein/fat than Orijen and a little less rich, which works better for some dogs. They also have a new line out that is the "Singles" line (Duck and Pear, Chicken and Potato and Lamb and Apple).


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## wags (Jan 31, 2009)

I right now am feeding Champion Brand Orijen and I do feed Acana at times, also Wellness Core. I have fed many varieties durning my years with dogs! Sheesh satrted out feeding the worst like beneful and purina, have fed prairie which I like and sheesh most of the brands now at the mom and pop stores, I like to chit chat with them and find out what they like! Are you interested in kibble foods? There are alot of nice ones out there!


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## wolfsnaps88 (Jan 2, 2012)

Unosmom, You forgot to mention that pearled barley is not a very nutritious form of barley (unpearled is better). 

When I look at a kibble, I look at all the ingredients before the first fat source. This makes up the bulk of the food. And with this food mentioned, you have brewers rice, pearled barley, corn gluten meal, and oat. This appears to be a very grain heavy food. Not to mention everything unosmom already pointed out as to the questionable quality. And for that price? You could do better. 

Here is the ingredient list for Chicken Soup for the Dog Lover's Soul:
Chicken, turkey, chicken meal, turkey meal, cracked pearled barley, whole grain brown rice, oatmeal, millet, white rice, chicken fat (preserved with mixed tocopherols), potatoes, egg product, tomato pomace, duck, salmon, ocean fish meal, flaxseed, natural chicken flavor, potassium chloride, salt, choline chloride, dried chicory root, dried kelp, carrots, peas, apples, tomatoes, blueberries, spinach, dried skim milk, cranberries, rosemary extract, parsley flake, yucca schidigera extract, L-Carnitine, dried Enterococcus faecium fermentation product, dried Lactobacillus acidophilus fermentation product, dried Lactobacillus casei fermentation product and dried Lactobacillus plantarum fermentation product, dried Trichoderma longibrachiatum fermentation extract, vitamin E supplement, iron proteinate, zinc proteinate, copper proteinate, ferrous sulfate, zinc sulfate, copper sulfate, potassium iodide, thiamine mononitrate, manganese proteinate, manganous oxide, ascorbic acid, vitamin A supplement, biotin, niacin, calcium pantothenate, manganese sulfate, sodium selenite, pyridoxine hydrochloride (vitamin B6), vitamin B12 supplement, riboflavin, vitamin D supplement, folic acid.

No menadione sodium bisulfite complex which is good. They name the fat source as chicken. The first four ingredients are animal proteins and two of them are meals so they don't lose weight due to water loss from cooking it. So even though the first two ingredients are fresh sources and probably are more likely the eighth and ninth ingredients after the cooking process, you can be confidant there is still a lot of good animal protein from the meal. They use whole brown rice and millet which are much better quality grains with better nutrition than corn or wheat. 

This is just a food suggestion. I am going to try this food myself for my guys next bag. I like to rotate foods so they aren't eating the same thing their whole lives. As mentioned, Taste of the Wild is a good suggestion for a grain free food. Both of these foods I believe are less expensive than Purina Selects.


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## 1605 (May 27, 2009)

greyshadows said:


> New to the forums and want to know what most here feed their dogs. Not sure what good dog food is anymore since the 2008 recalls where we found out that supposed great foods were made in the same factories as the cheapest supermarket brands. I saw a few sick and dying dogs with that recall and I told myself I would never feed any of those brands to my pups. Then I began the long journey to find food. Fortunately I have a friend who repairs pellet machines and he goes into many plants and his stories would horrify you. I know the best food is home cooked but realistically I don't always have the time, but I do try. I tried Halo because it was never recalled and it looked decent. Unfortunately though my one Weimaraner has a problem with some probiotics so I had to stop using it. Then I looked into Orijen but my vet said the protein count was high so they would have to be periodically tested for liver issues, no thanks! Now I am using Purina Selects Turkey and Barley. Some of you will say yuck but it is fairly decent (no wheat, corn or soy) my dogs look and act great. Plus as I mentioned above my friend has worked in the Purina plants and he says you can eat off the floor there. I rambled on a bit but for now that is what my Weimaraners eat. How about your dogs? What are your thoughts on brands of foods?


Like you I have sporting dogs (2 German Shorthaired Pointers) and I cannot understand why your Vet would tell you that a high protein food would mean having to check their liver functions all the time. None of my vets have ever suggested that to us, especially since we feed Innova EVO grainless Turkey/Chicken which is ~ 42% protein.

Our dogs are active in Field work and Obedience, plus they are exercised several times a week, so EVO works very well for them.

Just putting that out there...


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## Javadoo (May 23, 2011)

I am a daily rotation feeder(different food at each meal)...kibble only with fresh meats, veggies and eggs added in.
In my rotation currently: Fromm Beef Frittata, Fromm Surf & Turf, Fromm Gamebird recipe, Fromm Salmon Tunalini, TOTW Pacific Stream, TOTW Sierra Mountain, NV Instinct Duck & Turkey Meal, Now! and Go!
I also add a spoonful of wet food-EVO or Wellness 95% meat, Weruva, etc.
All the foods I feed are grain free because my girls do much better on grain free than they did on grain inclusive foods.


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## The Expert (Jan 25, 2012)

wolfsnaps88 said:


> Unosmom, You forgot to mention that pearled barley is not a very nutritious form of barley (unpearled is better)


I just had to comment on the barley, barley is actually a really cheap ingredient. If they are pearling the barely - trust me you want it pearled. Pearling takes off the outer shell, why would we do that? To decrease mycotoxin contamination!!! This is a way that companies can still feed their product - if written this way - is a a very cheap ingreident. If you were worried about wheat then do not feed barley. They are pretty much the same and barley is harder to digest. 

As for Chicken soup: 
The first two meats are wet weight - basically giving taste to the diet. So the first real ingredient is Chicken meal and Turkey meal, then the next 5 ingredient are grains, NOT even the protein fraction of them. Then you have potato as well. This diet is VERY high in carb. The first 7 ingredients listed before fat are all added to the diet in similar quanties (prob around 10%). All those lacto.... are a WASTE of money! They die very quickly. 

Also I would like to know why you think millet is better? from a tox background it is SOOOOO much worse. Look up mycotoxins and millet - millet is a low farming grain. SO what that means is it will not really be paid attention to by the food company. And, chicken soup is not checking for these little things. 

Please keep in mind, many people look at ingredients and judge price off of this. What the ingredient deck does not tell you is QUALITY CONTROL!!!! You pay a bit more and you can get the quality. Two ingredients can read the same and yet one is crap and another is good and clean. THis is where price comes in.


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## The Expert (Jan 25, 2012)

SubMariner said:


> Like you I have sporting dogs (2 German Shorthaired Pointers) and I cannot understand why your Vet would tell you that a high protein food would mean having to check their liver functions all the time. None of my vets have ever suggested that to us, especially since we feed Innova EVO grainless Turkey/Chicken which is ~ 42% protein.
> 
> Our dogs are active in Field work and Obedience, plus they are exercised several times a week, so EVO works very well for them.
> 
> Just putting that out there...


The reason the vet would recomend this is that a high protein diet can be hard on a liver - especially if the breed is predisposed to liver issues. The digestive tract digests the protiens into amino acids. These amino acids then get absorbed and sent to the liver. The liver then turns these amino acids into protiens and sends them to where they need to go. SO if you have have alot of protien in the diet the liver can then become overwhelmed, and eventually lead to liver disease. 42% protien is to high for a dog, and many vets are actually seeing dogs coming in with diseases that are related to a high protein diet. Some dogs can deal with it better (small and giant dogs typically have the issues). From an animal nutritionist point of view I do not agree with these overly high protien diets.


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## 1605 (May 27, 2009)

The Expert said:


> The reason the vet would recomend this is that a high protein diet can be hard on a liver - especially if the breed is predisposed to liver issues. The digestive tract digests the protiens into amino acids. These amino acids then get absorbed and sent to the liver. The liver then turns these amino acids into protiens and sends them to where they need to go. SO if you have have alot of protien in the diet the liver can then become overwhelmed, and eventually lead to liver disease. 42% protien is to high for a dog, and many vets are actually seeing dogs coming in with diseases that are related to a high protein diet. Some dogs can deal with it better (small and giant dogs typically have the issues). From an animal nutritionist point of view I do not agree with these overly high protien diets.


With all due respect, you have not given me any scientific studies/proof indicating that feeding a very active dog a high protein diet is not advisable. Especially since most of the better hunting/sporting breed feeds have 30%+ protein and high fat levels. Also, I have yet to hear from any Pro Trainers of active breeds that there has been in increase in liver problems with these dog foods.

Furthermore, I find it hard to believe that an animal that is a carnivore would have problems with high levels of protein.


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## greyshadows (Jan 30, 2012)

Thank you everyone for all your posts especially "the expert" who put into simple language what my vet was trying to tell me about too much protein! I also don't know if I agree with all those super high protein diets, maybe if they are young and very active, but otherwise it can't be great. Reminds me of all those humans on the Atkins diet, sure people lost weight but not in the healthiest way or a way that was sustainable. Plus aren't dogs omnivores? I mean in the wild they eat not only carcasses but grasses, roots and fruit. Also, those of you who raw feed, where do you get the food? If through a store aren't you worried about injections or dyes put in by the packing plant? 
One last note, Quality control, where they get the ingredients and cleanliness is of utmost importance. Like I noted in my original post, my friend that goes into plants servicing machines will tell you a sad story of one "premium" dog food company that is in the upper price range for food, that had a pile of dead rotten horse carcasses waiting to be made into food. They even made him sign a waiver not to mention it publicly! Are we just being separated from our money?


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## biancaDB (Nov 3, 2011)

I've read multiple times (and can find sources later) that a HIGH PROTEIN DIET WITH PROTEINS COMING FROM MEAT SOURCES is FINE for dogs. Protein coming from corn gluten meal and all that garbage is what really puts a strain on the liver. There are TONS of people here feeding a raw diet and their dogs seem to be in excellent health with no liver issues, even the seniors. Nothing leads me to believe that a healthy, meat based, high protein diet puts a strain on the liver.


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## DaneMama (Jun 27, 2008)

I think it has more to do with the type of protein that is hard on the liver of a dog. Animal proteins are easier to digest than plant proteins, so high levels of plant protein is hard on a dog (and is humans).

*Also, a friendly reminder to keep raw feeding mentions out of the kibble section unless the original posted asks questions specifically about raw. *


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## biancaDB (Nov 3, 2011)

greyshadows said:


> Thank you everyone for all your posts especially "the expert" who put into simple language what my vet was trying to tell me about too much protein! I also don't know if I agree with all those super high protein diets, maybe if they are young and very active, but otherwise it can't be great. Reminds me of all those humans on the Atkins diet, sure people lost weight but not in the healthiest way or a way that was sustainable. Plus aren't dogs omnivores? I mean in the wild they eat not only carcasses but grasses, roots and fruit. Also, those of you who raw feed, where do you get the food? If through a store aren't you worried about injections or dyes put in by the packing plant?
> One last note, Quality control, where they get the ingredients and cleanliness is of utmost importance. Like I noted in my original post, my friend that goes into plants servicing machines will tell you a sad story of one "premium" dog food company that is in the upper price range for food, that had a pile of dead rotten horse carcasses waiting to be made into food. They even made him sign a waiver not to mention it publicly! Are we just being separated from our money?


Dogs are opportunistic carnivores. They thrive on a meat based diet but if they're starving, they will graze on grass and fruit unlike cats. Dogs are NOT omnivores. Companies like Hills and Purina will tell you they are so you don't feel bad about feeding wheat and grains to your dog. 

edit** in terms of quality and cleanliness, I heard Fromm is excellent for that! Look into them!


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## MollyWoppy (Mar 19, 2010)

Well, my vet is anti Orijen as well. Quotes the protein level as his evidence. Mol was on Orijen for over a year, she is now on raw, but has had 2 blood tests in the last year, and they came back fine. Windy the cat is on Orijen (and a bit of Fromm), she will be getting a blood test in May, I'll let you know how that goes, but, going by her condition, demeanor, weight and energy, I suspect it will be fine. 
Go onto the Orijen site and read the 'white paper', that might help clarify a few things.


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## Scarlett_O' (May 19, 2011)

To the OP:

As far as "what do you feed", I feed raw.

But as far as what I have fed, and what Ive had dogs do good on include Canadae grain free(we had both Lhasas and our Basset on this for while, they all did pretty darn good,) Acana(grain free, we used the chicken free line and this is the one that Brody did the BEST on!) Taste of the Wild(sierra mountain and Pacific stream ones, Brody was also on this and as long as we kept to just these 2-NO CHICKEN-the he did great!:wink and Orijen(Ive mixed their chicken in with what ever other foods Ive fed in the past 5-6 years....EVERYONE loves it!!:thumb

(We fed MANY others when I was growing up, and I tried a few others with Beauregard after I started working....but those up there are the only ones I would ever suggest!:wink


wolfsnaps88 said:


> Here is the ingredient list for Chicken Soup for the Dog Lover's Soul:
> Chicken, turkey, chicken meal, turkey meal, cracked pearled barley, whole grain brown rice, oatmeal, millet, white rice, chicken fat (preserved with mixed tocopherols), potatoes, egg product, tomato pomace, duck, salmon, ocean fish meal, flaxseed, natural chicken flavor, potassium chloride, salt, choline chloride, dried chicory root, dried kelp, carrots, peas, apples, tomatoes, blueberries, spinach, dried skim milk, cranberries, rosemary extract, parsley flake, yucca schidigera extract, L-Carnitine, dried Enterococcus faecium fermentation product, dried Lactobacillus acidophilus fermentation product, dried Lactobacillus casei fermentation product and dried Lactobacillus plantarum fermentation product, dried Trichoderma longibrachiatum fermentation extract, vitamin E supplement, iron proteinate, zinc proteinate, copper proteinate, ferrous sulfate, zinc sulfate, copper sulfate, potassium iodide, thiamine mononitrate, manganese proteinate, manganous oxide, ascorbic acid, vitamin A supplement, biotin, niacin, calcium pantothenate, manganese sulfate, sodium selenite, pyridoxine hydrochloride (vitamin B6), vitamin B12 supplement, riboflavin, vitamin D supplement, folic acid.


Ive never met a dog that did good on this food, both of Brody's parents did HORRID on it...this is actually something that I agree with "te" on...I dont like this food at all!


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## Caty M (Aug 13, 2010)

greyshadows said:


> Thank you everyone for all your posts especially "the expert" who put into simple language what my vet was trying to tell me about too much protein! I also don't know if I agree with all those super high protein diets, maybe if they are young and very active, but otherwise it can't be great. Reminds me of all those humans on the Atkins diet, sure people lost weight but not in the healthiest way or a way that was sustainable. Plus aren't dogs omnivores? I mean in the wild they eat not only carcasses but grasses, roots and fruit. Also, those of you who raw feed, where do you get the food? If through a store aren't you worried about injections or dyes put in by the packing plant?
> One last note, Quality control, where they get the ingredients and cleanliness is of utmost importance. Like I noted in my original post, my friend that goes into plants servicing machines will tell you a sad story of one "premium" dog food company that is in the upper price range for food, that had a pile of dead rotten horse carcasses waiting to be made into food. They even made him sign a waiver not to mention it publicly! Are we just being separated from our money?


No.. I don't worry about quality when I buy from a human quality source, like a supplier or supermarket. What do you think is in kibble, filet mignon? That was one argument I never understood, was people saying that feeding meat is bad because it is factory farmed, preserved etc.. unless you are feeding a vegetarian kibble you are feeding the exact same meat, except not the choice parts you may find in the supermarket, and the quality and handling of the ingredients is not likely to be as good as if it was intended for human consumption.

EVO is one of the better foods.. I don't love that it was bought out by P&G but I feed my cats it and have been happy with the results with no visible changes and no change in taste- according to the cats, that is.

Dogs aren't omnivores.. they are carnivores. Just because they may eat the occasional blade of grass or berry doesn't make them an omnivore. Everything from their dentition to their digestive system to their physical looks points to an animal that was designed to capture, kill and eat prey. There are no flattened molars, no amylase in the saliva, no long intestinal tract needed to break down vegetation.

Comparing Atkins to the raw or high protein diet of a dog is not really feasible.. we are two different species with two different dietary requirements. What I feed my dog breaks down to 65% protein, and they are thriving. Feeding a kibbled diet high in protein is a GOOD thing.. a diet of a dog in the wild does not consist of 50% carbohydrates like Purina, Royal Canin, Pedigree diets would lead you to feed.


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## Scarlett_O' (May 19, 2011)

Oh man, I didnt even see the "omnivore" comment.

As Caty and Bianca said, no dogs are not omnivores. They are opportunistic carnivores, meaning that they WILL eat what they can get a hold of, however, that doesnt mean that their body needs it nor does it mean that it is good for them. Just because a dog or wolf WILL(and some times gladly because of the sweetness) eat berries, fruit, greens, veggies, etc doesnt mean that they should or that it is good for them any more then the fact that my husband will GLADLY eat candy for lunch and dinner means that it is good for him or that he needs it!:wink:


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## malluver1005 (Nov 15, 2009)

I feed raw. When I fed Aspen kibble, we rotated between a couple. Orijen, Acana, Evo, Horizon Legacy...


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## sozzle (May 18, 2011)

When I fed kibble I was on Nutrience Active (given free to greyhound adoptees), then I started my research in earnest and went premade raw dinner, kibble breakfast. Then I decided to go with Orijen but it wasn't for sale in my town (it is now) and then I decided prey model raw made much more sense for all the reasons above. NZ meat is not injected or dyed, if it is it has to say so, we are very strict here.


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## meggels (May 30, 2010)

I've tried a ton of kibbles...

Premium Edge, Whole Earth Farms, TOTW, Acana, Back to Basics, Pinnacle, Hi-Tek Rations (current), several Earthborn formulas, Orijen, Now, Go, Wellness, Blue Buffalo, Natural Balance, Nature's Variety, Chicken Soup, Merrick, Fromm, and the list goes on.


Ones I've liked best would be Whole Earth Farms, Acana, Back to Basics, Pinnacle, Hi- Tek, Earthborn, Nature's Variety. 

Abbie did pretty poorly on Chicken Soup. Not a fan  Big soft stools. Which is interesting because Whole Earth Farms has similar ingredients but she had amazing stools on it.


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## mythbuster (Jan 23, 2012)

Caty M said:


> Dogs aren't omnivores.. they are carnivores. Just because they may eat the occasional blade of grass or berry doesn't make them an omnivore. Everything from their dentition to their digestive system to their physical looks points to an animal that was designed to capture, kill and eat prey. There are no flattened molars, no amylase in the saliva, no long intestinal tract needed to break down vegetation.


There are not 'stages of carnivore', you are a carnivore or you are not. a cat is a carnivore. a dog not. it is an omnivore. Dogs DO have flattened molars. They don't have salivary amylase because they don't chew their food for long enough for it to be effective, but they DO have pancreatic amylase, so they can digest carbohydrates just fine. Feeding a dog more protein than it needs is expensive, wasteful, and puts more work on the liver and kidneys. If there are liver and kidney issues, they can cause disease to progress more quickly.


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## The Expert (Jan 25, 2012)

Dogs are actually omnivores, they just come from the order Carnivora, this DOES NOT mean they are carnivores. An omnivore is soemthing that can live either off of plants or animals and survive. So if they go through a moment where there is no prey animals, they will turn to other sources. A carnivore does NOT mean they eat SOLEY meat. They can eat vegetable sources as well. BOTH cats and dogs secrete pancreatic amylase, yes they do not secrete salivary. However, salivary amylase barely does much and would only help with raw starches - once cooked the pancreas has NO ISSUE what so ever with digesting starch (all kibble diets). But back to carnivore, this means they need to have meat in their diet so that they can get a COUPLE (Only the cat with taurine and Arachidonic acid) nutrients they cannot get from plants due to a lack of enzyme - dogs have the enzymes! 


Now to the protein, plant protien and animal protien are basically the same, the same digestive enzymes digest protien (some to name a few- trypsin, chymotrypsin, proteinase). There is no plant specific and animal specific protien digeting enzymes in the digestive tract. NO animal differentiates between the two. What IS taxing is high protien diets filled with poor quality protien -these can both be from animal or plant (depends on cooking and source quality). If the manufacuturer does not pay attention to the cooking method they denature the protien (most common in meat). This means the protien structure will change in a way that digestive enzymes cannot get to it. 
The reason sporting dogs can eat high protien and +30 is fine, it is when you get to +40 you are above what is natural and you overburden the body. If you dog is highly active it can deal better than a non active dog. Reason why the active dog can handle a little higher protien? It is recycling alot of its protiens, as each day they are tearing and growing more muscle. However, there are only a handful of dogs doing this level of activity. Many other dogs are living sedentary lives and it is in these dogs high protien is an issue. That is why vets are trying to get clients to stay away. Yes there is not exact reasearch trials that "prove" it, reason why? they are dogs and a trial to prove it needs to be long term (so way to costly), and you are trying to hurt a dog (trying to see what a high protien diet does) so animal care will never let you! That is why, however, trends are evident and vets are working based off what they are seeing. They deal with these things on a daily basis, so they do know better than you what diets can be harmful. Also, blood work is not a very good measurement - alot of times we dont see anything until the animal is in later stages of organ faliure. Why is this? blood values are soooo differnt from breed to bree and even dog to dog due to genetics. 

You are right "greyshadow" this kind of trend is JUST like the atkins diet, it is societys way of trying to over supplement. We as people always think more is better, when really it isnt, moderation and reasoning is better. 
These high protien kibble diets are even more protien then a raw diet! So they have actually gone past natural and into unnatural. As for the high fat, this isnt necessarily an issue as long as the dog is active. Fat burns at a lower temp then protien and carbs, so for an active dog it can help reduce lactic acid build up = better endurance. So this is not an issue - within reason. If your dog does have any pancreas trouble a high fat diet will most likely kill them (pancreas issues may not have even been aparent yet to the naked eye). So with any diet that goes extreme you have to be careful.


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## The Expert (Jan 25, 2012)

A good read for anyone wanting to formulate or just learn about the basics. Also has ALOT of references about trials done in cats and dogs - pretty much will have the only trials done. 
National Research Council (U.S.). Ad Hoc Committee on Dog and Cat Nutrition (2006). 

The NRC is not bias, and just goes with research and states what trials have shown animals during differnt stages require.


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## biancaDB (Nov 3, 2011)

" A carnivore does NOT mean they eat SOLEY meat. They can eat vegetable sources as well. "

Thank you, that is what we have all been saying... that would be a dog. A carnivore...grazing on grass and berries if NEEDED (starvation).


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## DaneMama (Jun 27, 2008)

The Expert said:


> Dogs are actually omnivores, they just come from the order Carnivora, this DOES NOT mean they are carnivores. An omnivore is soemthing that can live either off of plants or animals and survive.* So if they go through a moment where there is no prey animals, they will turn to other sources.* A carnivore does NOT mean they eat SOLEY meat. They can eat vegetable sources as well. BOTH cats and dogs secrete pancreatic amylase, yes they do not secrete salivary. However, salivary amylase barely does much and would only help with raw starches - once cooked the pancreas has NO ISSUE what so ever with digesting starch (all kibble diets). But back to carnivore, this means they need to have meat in their diet so that they can get a COUPLE (Only the cat with taurine and Arachidonic acid) nutrients they cannot get from plants due to a lack of enzyme - dogs have the enzymes!


Exactly! But why feed a dog as if they're constantly in a "starvation" type lifestyle? You say that dogs will RESORT to other sources if no prey animals are around...why not feed our dogs like they have an endless supply of prey animals? That makes sense to me :thumb:



> What IS taxing is high protien diets filled with poor quality protien -these can both be from animal or plant (depends on cooking and source quality). If the manufacuturer does not pay attention to the cooking method they denature the protien (most common in meat). This means the protien structure will change in a way that digestive enzymes cannot get to it.


This is why cooking foods for dogs (and humans) is not as good as feeding whole, fresh foods in their natural state. This is also the reason why dogs who are diagnosed allergic to chicken can't tolerate cooked chicken but handle raw chicken just fine. 



> The reason sporting dogs can eat high protien and +30 is fine, it is when you get to +40 you are above what is natural and you overburden the body. If you dog is highly active it can deal better than a non active dog. Reason why the active dog can handle a little higher protien? It is recycling alot of its protiens, as each day they are tearing and growing more muscle. However, there are only a handful of dogs doing this level of activity. Many other dogs are living sedentary lives and it is in these dogs high protien is an issue. That is why vets are trying to get clients to stay away. Yes there is not exact reasearch trials that "prove" it, reason why? they are dogs and a trial to prove it needs to be long term (so way to costly), and you are trying to hurt a dog (trying to see what a high protien diet does) so animal care will never let you! That is why, however, trends are evident and vets are working based off what they are seeing. They deal with these things on a daily basis, so they do know better than you what diets can be harmful.


I just don't believe this "trend" you speak of. I've been working in vet clinics for years and have yet to see this. All the dogs I see that are in major organ failure or poor health are eating food packed with low quality fillers, starches and processed junk. Sure there's a handful of dogs that go into organ failure while ON a high protein diet, but other things impact organ health and function. Genetics is a key component. Dental disease is a HUGE factor in overall health and organ function. MOST dogs over the age of 2 have at least some degree of dental disease whether they have routine dental work done or not. All that bacteria constantly being fed in the mouth by cheap starchy foods creates more of a problem than high protein diets. 

Sedentary dogs who eat a high protein diet, just need to be fed less food. Easy as that. 



> Also, blood work is not a very good measurement - alot of times we dont see anything until the animal is in later stages of organ faliure. Why is this? blood values are soooo differnt from breed to bree and even dog to dog due to genetics.


A single blood panel doesn't give a whole lot of information other than how the organs are working in that particular moment in time. BUT annual and semi annual blood work will show trends and will eventually show a baseline. Its something that I do for all of my dogs and recommend to ALL pet owners. A physical exam can only diagnose so much, but blood work can be just as important as an internal physical exam. More and more people are catching onto this and being proactive about it. 



> *These high protien kibble diets are even more protien then a raw diet! So they have actually gone past natural and into unnatural. *


This I actually agree with you on. I think that soaking high protein foods in water bring them back down to "natural" amounts AND quality of protein.


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## wolfsnaps88 (Jan 2, 2012)

I agree that chicken soup dog food is high in grains. I have never fed it. Whole Earth Farms sounds good on paper but my mastiff gets horrible paint peeling gas from it. I think its what works for the individual dog. I am going to try Chicken Soup at least once to see how my guys do on it. Hoping to get them back to raw soon but until then, they have to eat something! 

If it was up to my husband, they would be eating Kibbles 'n' Bits so I don't think they have it too bad


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## Caty M (Aug 13, 2010)

Yes, dog foods such as EVO and Orijen ARE higher in protein than raw... until you compare them both on a dry matter basis, then raw is higher. If you bring Orijen up in water content around 65-75% like raw meat is (by soaking it in water) it lowers the protein content to less than raw. :wink:

Nice try though!


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## greyshadows (Jan 30, 2012)

Thanks all to your replies! Surprised it turned into a debate! I grew up with dogs my whole life but my two Weimaraners I own now are the first that are actually "mine." I spent the first two years experimenting with foods and consulting with several veterinarians and it has been challenging. My oldest dog has allergies so I feel as though I have tried everything out there. I have been worried about high protein due to my veterinarians warnings and an article in my local paper awhile back about two K9 dogs who at 4 and 7 years succumbed to liver issues. I have also been told by a breeder that at least with Weimaraners pancreatitis is also an issue with excessive protein. 
I read about dogs being omnivores at the Cornell Veterinary website. I also thought they were strict carnivores but cats are not dogs. I also just saw an article at my local shelter that said dogs being fed exclusively raw diets have more veterinary visits and are not living as long which I don't understand at all. I can see with Kibble it has fillers and preservatives but one would assume if you fed a dog close to what it would eat in the wild it would be best. Maybe someone out there who is a vet or a researcher could explain why this might be. Sorry for posing so many questions but I have a physicist in my house and we want to know the answers to everything and we research everything to death!


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## meggels (May 30, 2010)

wolfsnaps88 said:


> I agree that chicken soup dog food is high in grains. I have never fed it. Whole Earth Farms sounds good on paper but my mastiff gets horrible paint peeling gas from it. I think its what works for the individual dog. I am going to try Chicken Soup at least once to see how my guys do on it. Hoping to get them back to raw soon but until then, they have to eat something!
> 
> If it was up to my husband, they would be eating Kibbles 'n' Bits so I don't think they have it too bad


Isn't it interesting? When you look at the two on paper, they are pretty similar...but your dog did poorly on WEF where as mine did great on it but not on Chicken Soup. I always find the minor differences interesting given how similar they are...


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## mythbuster (Jan 23, 2012)

meggels said:


> Isn't it interesting? When you look at the two on paper, they are pretty similar...but your dog did poorly on WEF where as mine did great on it but not on Chicken Soup. I always find the minor differences interesting given how similar they are...


It's because if you compare only by the ingredient label... you don't get the whole story.


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## mythbuster (Jan 23, 2012)

greyshadows said:


> I can see with Kibble it has fillers and preservatives but one would assume if you fed a dog close to what it would eat in the wild it would be best.


Not all kibble can be painted with the same brush. Not all kibble is full of fillers, and there are a lot of misconceptions out there as to what constitutes a 'filler'. a filler has no nutritional value. people on this forum call corn a filler, but it is full of beneficial nutrients, not a filler. Preservatives in dog foods are simply antioxidants that prevent the fat from 'oxidizing' and going rancid. Antioxidants can be synthetic (ie: BHT and BHA), or natural, like vitamin E and rosemary. There are lots of naturally preserved diets available. Antioxidants are a very good thing, not just for preserving the food, but also for overall health. 

Can you imagine a yorkie or a pug fending for itself in the wild? or even a mastiff or a beagle or a shar-pei? Dog's can't be compared to wolves because they are not wolves (and wolves in the wild are not exactly the picture of health). When talking about pet food, the bottom line is different ingredients provide different nutrients. The combination of ingredients in dog food produces a nutrient profile. By studying the effect of feeding different nutritional profiles to pets, you can determine what works better, and what doesn't work better.


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## meggels (May 30, 2010)

mythbuster said:


> It's because if you compare only by the ingredient label... you don't get the whole story.



So what would set apart Chicken Soup and WEF?


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## Caty M (Aug 13, 2010)

Grey, I highly doubt that raw fed dogs are living shorter lives than kibble fed dogs.. and even if the vet visit thing were true (again, I doubt it is), I would say that people that have properly researched a raw diet are very invested in their animal's care and are more likely to bring the dog in for small injuries etc.. and routine bloodwork.

Mythbuster, what sets a dog and a wolf apart INTERNALLY.. ie, digestive system? Dogs have been selectively bred for thousands of years for size, appearance, coat, temperament... but not for a specific digestive system. Being that a wolf and dog thrive on the same diet I would say there is no difference... and in fact many zoos to save money are feeding wolves cheap kibbles.

There are SO many factors to say that wolves aren't in good health to say "it's diet!"... there are predators, starvation, disease, extreme weather conditions.. to say that their diet is the cause of it is pretty ridiculous imo.


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## mythbuster (Jan 23, 2012)

meggels said:


> So what would set apart Chicken Soup and WEF?


I honestly don't know much about either diet, but in general, even diets with identical ingredient panels will differ by: 
source and quality of ingredients, nutrient levels, digestibility, quality control...


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

:usa::usa::usa::usa::usa::usa:


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## MollyWoppy (Mar 19, 2010)

And, I have to chime in that my friends 14yo pug, who has been poorly all his life, (eye's, ear's, teeth, skin, allergies) was swopped over to Orijen and raw a year ago. And, this is the first time in 14 years he has not had to see the vet between his wellness exams, which are once a year. Hopefully, he will not need a dental either, even though 18 months ago they had to pull 4 teeth out. 
I'm only mentioning this, and I don't care what anyone else says, but I am proud to have been responsible for making one old sweetheart pugs life a lot happier.


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## Breathing Borla (Apr 30, 2010)

greyshadows said:


> New to the forums and want to know what most here feed their dogs. Not sure what good dog food is anymore since the 2008 recalls where we found out that supposed great foods were made in the same factories as the cheapest supermarket brands. I saw a few sick and dying dogs with that recall and I told myself I would never feed any of those brands to my pups. Then I began the long journey to find food. Fortunately I have a friend who repairs pellet machines and he goes into many plants and his stories would horrify you. I know the best food is home cooked but realistically I don't always have the time, but I do try. I tried Halo because it was never recalled and it looked decent. Unfortunately though my one Weimaraner has a problem with some probiotics so I had to stop using it. Then I looked into Orijen but my vet said the protein count was high so they would have to be periodically tested for liver issues, no thanks! Now I am using Purina Selects Turkey and Barley. Some of you will say yuck but it is fairly decent (no wheat, corn or soy) my dogs look and act great. Plus as I mentioned above my friend has worked in the Purina plants and he says you can eat off the floor there. I rambled on a bit but for now that is what my Weimaraners eat. How about your dogs? What are your thoughts on brands of foods?


I have a weim as well, she does really good on EVO turkey and chicken..


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## Breathing Borla (Apr 30, 2010)

SubMariner said:


> Like you I have sporting dogs (2 German Shorthaired Pointers) and I cannot understand why your Vet would tell you that a high protein food would mean having to check their liver functions all the time. None of my vets have ever suggested that to us, especially since we feed Innova EVO grainless Turkey/Chicken which is ~ 42% protein.
> 
> Our dogs are active in Field work and Obedience, plus they are exercised several times a week, so EVO works very well for them.
> 
> Just putting that out there...


agreed,my vet told me they love the EVO foods and that's what they feed their dogs.


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## greyshadows (Jan 30, 2012)

where do you find evo and is it expensive? You have a beautiful weim!


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## 1605 (May 27, 2009)

greyshadows said:


> where do you find evo and is it expensive? You have a beautiful weim!


Neither Petco or Petsmart carry EVO, but in our area Pet Supermarket does. However, we found the best local price at a one-off family owned pet store in our area called Pet City. A 28# bag of Turkey/Chicken costs me $58 just north of Tampa.

At the checkout you will pay more for EVO than "Brand X". However, because you feed LESS of it than the bargain brands, it actually winds up being more cost effective.


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## Caty M (Aug 13, 2010)

SubMariner said:


> Neither Petco or Petsmart carry EVO, but in our area Pet Supermarket does. However, we found the best local price at a one-off family owned pet store in our area called Pet City. A 28# bag of Turkey/Chicken costs me $58 just north of Tampa.
> 
> At the checkout you will pay more for EVO than "Brand X". However, because you feed LESS of it than the bargain brands, it actually winds up being more cost effective.


I agree. I used to feed Science Diet to my cats (the Urinary prescription one) and we would go through around 10lb a month- I have two cats. I now go through one bag of EVO every two months, with some raw supplementation, too. Per pound the cost is similar with the two but trust me, you feed WAYYY less of the EVO.


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## Breathing Borla (Apr 30, 2010)

greyshadows said:


> where do you find evo and is it expensive? You have a beautiful weim!


Thanks for the complement, Roxy thanks you too, LOL

try this Where to Buy - Natura Pet Products

I pay about 58-59 dollars for the 28lbs bag. Remember that you don't feed as much. I learned the hard way and she had loose stools, but when I asked around here people told me to cut down a bit and I did. 

She runs like a wild man and she gets 1 cup in the morning, 1 cup at night with a few EVO treats in the day. She stays a perfect 60 lbs where the vet told me they want her. Her coat is better than ever on the EVO, simply SUPER soft.

she also gets some canine caviar buffalo jerky from time to time to chew on

I do have a bowl that slows her down so she doesn't get bloat, she absolutely inhales her food.

this is the one I use Healthy Pet Product Search ? Organic Dog Food, Dog Treats and More ? Natura Pet Products


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## Caty M (Aug 13, 2010)

By the way- the bag of EVO I buy for two cats every two months is only around 6lb, very calorie dense stuff!


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## JustaLilBitaLuck (Jan 15, 2012)

mythbuster said:


> There are not 'stages of carnivore', you are a carnivore or you are not. a cat is a carnivore. a dog not. it is an omnivore.


There actually ARE stages of carnivores - three, in fact. You have hypercarnivores, also called "obligate carnivores" - animals whose diet must consist of 70%-100% meat, such as wild cats, sharks, snakes, and birds of prey. You then have mesocarnivores, also called "opportunistic carnivores" - animals whose diet must consist of 50%-70% meat, such as wolves, coyotes, foxes, martens, mongooses, and skunks. And finally you have hypocarnivores, also called "omnivores" - animals whose diet consists of 30%-50% meat, such as bears and pigs.

I believe the differences are classified based on the animal's natural preference in the wild and nutritional requirements, as well as the structure and function of the teeth and digestive process.


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## greyshadows (Jan 30, 2012)

I had always thought there were stages of carnivores too, but I couldn't find anything about it in my research. My vet just says dogs are "mostly carnivorous" but cats are "strict carnivores". Makes it sound like there are types as well. Funny how the veterinarian community doesn't seem to want to discuss this much. I guess as has been pointed out before, not much research is being done just those paid by food companies.:frown:


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## Caty M (Aug 13, 2010)

The only reason cats are "strict carnivores" is because they have a mutation where they cannot produce their own taurine and will go blind without it. Taurine is found in raw meat in abundant amounts but is not found in plant products. Dogs CAN produce their own taurine. Raw feeders feed cats and dogs mostly the same, except my cat often gets feeder mice/chicks.

One of my cats is a garbage gut and likes anything with sugar. He goes nuts over cookies, muffins and cakes. Once I left a banana bread sitting out and the entire top was eaten and in crumbs. :thumb: Yet, he's still classified as a carnivore no matter what he may like to eat!


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## greyshadows (Jan 30, 2012)

Is taurine what makes their urine smell badly? I know it smells like ammonia, but when I fed my cat a cheaper brand their urine smelled worse, now I feed them wilderness and it's not nearly as bad.


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## Caty M (Aug 13, 2010)

No, I think cat pee just stinks. :heh:


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## Jordan S. (Feb 2, 2010)

greyshadows said:


> Thank you everyone for all your posts especially "the expert" who put into simple language what my vet was trying to tell me about too much protein! I also don't know if I agree with all those super high protein diets, maybe if they are young and very active, but otherwise it can't be great. Reminds me of all those humans on the Atkins diet, sure people lost weight but not in the healthiest way or a way that was sustainable. Plus aren't dogs omnivores? I mean in the wild they eat not only carcasses but grasses, roots and fruit. Also, those of you who raw feed, where do you get the food? If through a store aren't you worried about injections or dyes put in by the packing plant?
> One last note, Quality control, where they get the ingredients and cleanliness is of utmost importance. Like I noted in my original post, my friend that goes into plants servicing machines will tell you a sad story of one "premium" dog food company that is in the upper price range for food, that had a pile of dead rotten horse carcasses waiting to be made into food. They even made him sign a waiver not to mention it publicly! Are we just being separated from our money?



I think Atkins is crap too, for humans, A dog's nutritional needs and a human's nutritional needs are like night and day, I just don't understand why people insist on comparing the two, atkins isn't sustainable for humans because human bodies are built for a heavily plant-based diet with some meat here and there, dogs on the other hand, have sharp teeth(no molars or flat teeth whatsoever) a short digestive system, acidic saliva, and are predominantly meat eaters



I feed Chocolate TOTW and occasionally hop over to NV Instinct. He does great on both, I throw in some raw days here and there as well


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## greyshadows (Jan 30, 2012)

I agree with dogs being carnivores too. I was just making the point that you should feed them something else as well. It's just confusing because my vet told me my dogs aren't "strict" carnivores but my cat was. Then looking on the internet I saw the controversy about omnivores vs carnivores in the canine world. Research is being done I guess but as has been pointed out before, it's hard to trust the data if only dog food companies sponsor the research.


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

:usa::usa::usa::usa::usa::usa:


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## Unosmom (May 3, 2009)

> others think differently. i have balkan friends who feed raw, but include veggies and grains and fruits and seeds and their dogs look gorgeous.....they are quite puzzled why we feed a prey model of only protein/bone/organs.


Growing up in europe, thats how its always been with our pets. Pet food was too expensive for us to feed, so we'd feed our cat, meat scraps, a lot of fish and canned food. Our cat was super healthy and at 15 looked like a 3 year old. 

My aunt lives overseas as well and they feed their dog basically byproducts, she goes to a butchers and gets a ton of free scraps, she cooks it, then mixes it with different type of porridge like oatmeal or buckwheat and adds cooked veggies leftover from soups and such. The dog is super healthy.


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## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

Unosmom said:


> My aunt lives overseas as well and they feed their dog basically byproducts, she goes to a butchers and gets a ton of free scraps, she cooks it, then mixes it with different type of porridge like oatmeal or buckwheat and adds cooked veggies leftover from soups and such. The dog is super healthy.


Can't argue with that. That's pretty much how we fed our dogs when I was little. A can of alpo was a real treat but mostly they got scraps.


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