# wasting away ....



## minnieme (Jul 6, 2011)

To the kindest and most compassionate raw feeders around,

I need to hear about people who have also struggled like Minnie and I have. I keep reading through these forums and it seems like no one has problems like we do. The topic I previously posted about was Minnie (1.5 y.o. Great Dane) having diarrhea again. So I fasted her. I cut her food intake in half (only 1lb/day now). We have only gone for a few walks in the cool nighttime -- no more running around the dog parks (it has been EXTREMELY hot here recently). Still, the diarrhea continues. I mentioned before that she woke me up 5x in one night a few days ago -- that was awful -- but that hasn't happened again. She poops about 1-2x a day now (normal) but they are still runny, goopy messes. I suppose in a sense this is progress (she is going less often now) but I am still struggling so much with this. I am going to take a fecal to the vet tomorrow for sure. Does this sound on par with Giardia or some other parasite/bacteria?

I hate to be that person that wigs out over what I'm sure most of you take in stride, but she is my first dog. Not to mention she is WASTING away right before my eyes. She looks more sunken and hollow every day and a part of me wants to switch her over to a "premium" kibble so I can at least fatten her up, and then try raw again (I can recognize premium kibble is a bit of an oxymoron, but at least when she was on kibble her overall health seemed far better and moreover, consistent). She is emaciated. I have had her for only a few months now and I feel like her quality of life is poor when she frequently goes hungry due to fasting or cutting her rations, and then also having diarrhea. And we are only on her first protein! Chicken quarters -- no skin! We haven't even made it to anything else in...a little over a month roughly. I know that slow and steady wins the race, but I was hoping to see at least a little progress by now.  The only thing I know for sure is that she does love her meals, and I love that.... but otherwise, it's breaking my heart. 

Am I alone in this or are there others out there too? I so believe in raw...but it just doesn't seem to be working for Minnie (yet). I know a month and a half isn't a long time, but it is a long time to go hungry! I'm seriously concerned that I am hurting her and starving my dog. She looks absolutely dreadful.

Sorry for the constant postings....just have nowhere else to turn.

Thanks,

Jill and Minnie the Great Dane


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## lauren43 (Feb 6, 2011)

I do not believe raw is for every person or every dog, if you no longer feel comfortable feeding her this way or it doesn't seem to be "working" for her, switch her. You many want to get that fecal and perhaps have blood work done first to ensure nothing else is going on.

I only say this because I have seen a dog not respond well to raw and their were other ongoing issues as well.


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

keep posting...believe me, i understand....

sure sounds like a parasite to me...i'm not so sure this is diet.....

i'm thinking this might be a parasite. it sounds like giardia or something similar, which does not always show up on the first fecal.

you have made progress in that she's not pooping as often, which tells me she was being overfed....so that's a help.

i understand she is looking dreadful....but that might be because she has a bug....i would take three fecal samples in...one per day, if you can manage that and make them test each one.....

you've had blood work, i presume..

will she eat home cooking?

that is also a route you can go to put weight on her....and there are ways to firm up her stools...

how often are you giving her slippery elm?


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## Liz (Sep 27, 2010)

Are you sure this chicken isn't enhanced? And maybe feeding chicken quarters and chicken backs might work. I hope someone else chimes in soon with more suggestions.


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

lauren43 said:


> I do not believe raw is for every person or every dog, if you no longer feel comfortable feeding her this way or it doesn't seem to be "working" for her, switch her. You many want to get that fecal and perhaps have blood work done first to ensure nothing else is going on.
> 
> I only say this because I have seen a dog not respond well to raw and their were other ongoing issues as well.


There are dogs with health issues which exclude them from being fed a raw diet...one of our posters whose dog was on raw...is one such dog....

there are very few dogs who do not thrive on raw....unless there are other, as you said, ongoing issues....

which is what i think...is next...finding out if there are ongoing issues....


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## minnieme (Jul 6, 2011)

Liz said:


> Are you sure this chicken isn't enhanced? And maybe feeding chicken quarters and chicken backs might work. I hope someone else chimes in soon with more suggestions.


Nope, chicken isn't enhanced -- it's the same kind she's been on since we switched to raw and is under 80mg of sodium. Troubles started (again) when I gave her a different cut of chicken (a thigh - also not enhanced), though any new protein no matter how small (an ounce or less) seems to cause similar results (diarrhea for days). 

She had whipworms when we got her and those were treated promptly with Panacur. We did repeated fecal tests after the drug ran its course (weeks after the fact and repeatedly as mentioned before) and doc deemed her okay. I know they are particularly difficult to get rid of and her time in the dog park probably hasn't helped -- I'm sure parasites and bacteria run rampant there. We will start gathering poop today and bring in more fecal samples tomorrow and see what the vet says. As far as blood work goes, she had some done a few weeks before we got her and everything checked out normal (that was roughly 3 months ago).


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## Liz (Sep 27, 2010)

Well, if she was mine I would also try giving her some bentonite clay for a few days and see if that helps or slippery elm. I would try the bentomite clay first as it is excellent for detoxing and sometimes a particular bug of bacteria won't show unless specifically tested for.


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## Love my lab (Dec 9, 2010)

my suggestion is more backs then quaters at least for a week straight. If worms is part of your problem you are fighting a losing battle at the moment. Maybe keeping her out of the dog park until you figure out what is going may help if you think she is catching something from there......just a suggestion. Also, maybe she can not handle chicken protien. I know some say that raw chicken is different then cooked, but that doesn't mean she may not have an intolerance to it. From what I am reading no matter what cut of chicken she is eating it is causeing a problem....definatly no a good thing to have happen. I am not saying she is intolerant to it becasue I am no specialist by far, but have you thought of possible feeding turkey necks instead? They are bone heavy, have meat and usually the next protien to switch to after chicken. 

Good luck w/ the poop samples and keep updates  Sending prayers and happy thoughts your way.


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

Love my lab said:


> my suggestion is more backs then quaters at least for a week straight. If worms is part of your problem you are fighting a losing battle at the moment. Maybe keeping her out of the dog park until you figure out what is going may help if you think she is catching something from there......just a suggestion. Also, maybe she can not handle chicken protien. I know some say that raw chicken is different then cooked, but that doesn't mean she may not have an intolerance to it. From what I am reading no matter what cut of chicken she is eating it is causeing a problem....definatly no a good thing to have happen. I am not saying she is intolerant to it becasue I am no specialist by far, but have you thought of possible feeding turkey necks instead? They are bone heavy, have meat and usually the next protien to switch to after chicken.
> 
> Good luck w/ the poop samples and keep updates  Sending prayers and happy thoughts your way.


that's not a bad idea...have you tried turkey necks? there was a poster on here and no matter what.....her dog got diarrhea from chicken....
maybe switch to a boney protein such as turkey necks....good idea..

but do one thing at a time....i agree about giving only backs...they are bonier and lend themselves to better stools....this is what i had to do, along with stripping the organs from the back and the skin and excess fat....just until their stools stabilised....and then they stayed on backs longer as i added back the skin, a little at a time....

in the meantime, the bentonite clay to detox and slippery elm to coat the stomach and intestine for the short term might ease some of the inflammation i'm sure her bowel has...


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## minnieme (Jul 6, 2011)

Love my lab said:


> my suggestion is more backs then quaters at least for a week straight.
> 
> Also, maybe she can not handle chicken protien. have you thought of possible feeding turkey necks instead? They are bone heavy, have meat and usually the next protien to switch to after chicken.
> 
> Good luck w/ the poop samples and keep updates  Sending prayers and happy thoughts your way.




Unfortunately I haven't had any luck finding just backs.....only thing we can find is an actual whole chicken, so we'd have to buy and butcher a ton to get her at her daily ratio. She had trouble with the quarters at first (it's what I fed for her first week of raw), but she has grown accustomed to them and has done quite well on them. It's when I add in new things that trouble arises (new things here means dif cuts of chicken too).

As far as turkey necks go, I've always heard these are a no-no for giant breeds. While she isn't a gulper, I'm concerned that these could be a choking hazard. Not to mention, she WAS doing well on quarters.....it's just when I decide to change things up that there's issues. 

Slippery elm seems to quell the nausea but little else. Will look into bentonite clay...and will keep you all posted. Thanks for the thorough and kind responses -- would love to hear more if anyone has any other thoughts or suggestions.


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## chowder (Sep 7, 2008)

If the fecals turn out okay, then maybe she just has a very sensitive system. Rocky is one of those type of dogs. After a year of eating raw, he still can't have hardly any beef without getting the runs. I can give him a few pieces of stew beef, but that is all he can manage at once. He has always been real sensitive to some foods. Maybe for your dog it is the chicken. 

Maybe it is time to try a different protein. There was someone here (can't remember who) that started with a totally different protein then chicken and did fine.


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## Unosmom (May 3, 2009)

Has she been checked for IBD?


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

if she did well on chicken quarters, then let's stay on them....until her stool is totally stabilised and you've taken a number of fecals in to rule out any parasites....

since she did well on them....but don't increase the amount just yet...let's take it very slowly with her....if she has solid poops for a week, then you can add a little more...she may be on chicken for a while....because with all of the diarrhea, i would not be surprised if she doesn't have inflammation in her stomach and colon.

the slippery elm will help but remember to take a break from it, because it does coat things and will interfere with absorption of nutrients....

keep posting about her progress, daily even if you want..hourly if it makes you feel better...this is a tough time for you....we all know.....our dogs are our lives...and any support you need...someone is always around....

but if she does well on a pound of chicken quarters....then let's do that...but for more than a few days.
slippery elm for a week.
bentonite clay - liz how long?
three fecals..one each day to the vet for testing.

and then let's re assess


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## Liz (Sep 27, 2010)

Using bentonite clay - I would dilute and give orally, 2 x per day for 4-5 days and see if there was any improvement.


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## DaneMama (Jun 27, 2008)

Im sorry your baby is having such issues....we will try and get her set straight! 

I would have a fecal done asap. If possible do one That checks for things extensively. 

Try also cutting some of the muscle meat off the bone to increase the bone ratio. 

Turkey necks are on of my favorite things to feed my Danes, never had an issue with them before. I wouldn't worry too much about them being a choking hazard.


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## Ania's Mommy (Feb 8, 2009)

I was going to suggest turkey necks too. If you decide to go that route, make sure you get whole ones. Most of the ones in the store are cut down, so you may need to order them from a butcher. You'll be able to tell if they're whole by the length; whole necks are about a foot or more long.


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## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

Whole necks are HUGE. They weigh about a pound. 

having said that, i could not watch my dog starving. Most people when switching to raw see such positive changes it's an immediate affirmation of raw - but the first priority is your dog, not the food she's eating. 

Don't stay on raw if you don't feel comfortable. If she can't eat it, she can't eat it - or you should maybe do something else so she can gain some weight and you can regroup and think about what you will do next. Maybe let her gain some weight and THEN try turkey or some other protein. But if you are experimenting with a dog who is rapidly losing weight, that might not be such a great idea to start trying new stuff


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

xellil said:


> Whole necks are HUGE. They weigh about a pound.
> 
> having said that, i could not watch my dog starving. Most people when switching to raw see such positive changes it's an immediate affirmation of raw - but the first priority is your dog, not the food she's eating.
> 
> Don't stay on raw if you don't feel comfortable. If she can't eat it, she can't eat it - or you should maybe do something else so she can gain some weight and you can regroup and think about what you will do next. Maybe let her gain some weight and THEN try turkey or some other protein. But if you are experimenting with a dog who is rapidly losing weight, that might not be such a great idea to start trying new stuff


you are right that we have to be comfortable with our choice of what we feed our dogs....

perhaps it would be better to home cook for a while to get some weight on the dog and then try again....certainly fear and tension can pass to the dog and day after day, things aren't going well....

but i do not think the advice given has anything to do with experimenting....we are all trying to help a dog transtion to raw and a doggy mommy not lose her mind in the process. to say it is experimentation is true but only in that each and every dog is different...

what i think happened was the dog was being overfed and then got the runs, causing an inflammation in the stomach and intestinal tract. 

what we are trying to do in order for this dog to eat with normal stools and gain weight is to find the right amount to feed with the right bone amount and something to soothe the gut. i don't think that is experimentation.

on the other hand, as natalie has said, it is easy for us to hand out advice whilst this dog and the OP is suffering.


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## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

Maybe experimenting is a bad term. Maybe I should say "new protein" instead. 

I am trying to think how willing I would be to keep going raw with my dog starving before my eyes, and i have to think - not very. Especially if it seems the reason might be the switch to raw is not agreeing with her digestion. 

I think what i would do is go back to whatever kibble she used to eat, and put the weight back (primary would be putting weight back, regardless of the food - feed her milkshakes if she can drink them and they make her fat), and then start all over again with raw when she seems healthy. First and foremost needs to be stop the diarrhea, and start gaining weight. I don't think this is transition - transition is some loose poops and a some vomiting etc., not a dog that is wasting away to nothing.

I'm kidding about the milkshakes. But I would definitely try something with some bulk, like pumpkin.


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

xellil said:


> Maybe experimenting is a bad term. Maybe I should say "new protein" instead.
> 
> I am trying to think how willing I would be to keep going raw with my dog starving before my eyes, and i have to think - not very. Especially if it seems the reason might be the switch to raw is not agreeing with her digestion.
> 
> ...


there are milkshakes that could be given. but the problem is the diarrhea....which i'm beginning to suspect is either from overfeeding, a parasite or both....

for me, and i can only speak for myself...i erred in the beginning to the point where i gave my dogs severe cannon butt and literally gave up and went to home cooking until i sorted things out so i could start again.

i agree this is viable as an option...but to change diets on this dog now might make things worse....what i'm suggesting is a simplification of the diet.....to give the dog a chance to stabilise...adding some herbs to make things smoother...checking the stool to make sure it's not a parasite....

i simply don't think it's the diet...i am thinking she got fed too much and it irritated her bowel. so you go back to step one...and stop trying to intro new proteins.....


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## RaisingWolves (Mar 19, 2011)

minnieme said:


> As far as turkey necks go, I've always heard these are a no-no for giant breeds. While she isn't a gulper, I'm concerned that these could be a choking hazard.


Turkey necks are one of the few boney meals my mastiff girl is forced to take her time and chew. She is a gulper and it's pretty scary to watch sometimes. 
The turkey necks I buy are super meaty and twice the size I find in the grocery store. I buy bulk box from this supplier and they might deliver in your area. Wisconsin Delivery | My Pet Carnivore
The owner of this company is extremely passionate about feeding their dogs raw.


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## Love my lab (Dec 9, 2010)

yeah the turkey necks I get are pretty large. I will never forget 1st time I got a box of them and when I opened it I was like wow those things are huge!! My dog is not a giant breed, she is a large breed but I def. feel comfortable feeding them to her. I am w/ you raisingwolves about the gulping and being scary to watch at times. Thank goodness they are different then humans and really only need to crunch a few times and it can go down the hatch. lol. How is your dog doing.....any results from the samples? Still sending good thoughts your way


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## sadysaneto (Jun 28, 2011)

got the same problem here.

in my case, homemade yogurt was the solution.


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## Ioana (May 1, 2011)

I am pretty new to raw and I sure don't know as much as other users, but I have an ideea. Why don't you try a combination between cooked and raw? Before I started to feed Tamir PMR I was feeding some kind of BARF: cooked rice with carrots and raw meat. I think you cold continue with the meat you are giving now and add to this some rice. This would help her gaining some weight and, after a while, you could go back to PMR. Also, the rice may be good for her stools. 

My dog was doing fine on that diet. Sincerly, I haven't seen any change when I gave up the rice, altough I'm convinced it is not good for a dog. The only big change I saw was when I gave up kibbles. 

I don't know if my advice is good. I hope that other users will tell if it is something dangerous in adding cooked rice to the diet. 

All the good thoughts from us!


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

sadysaneto said:


> got the same problem here.
> 
> in my case, homemade yogurt was the solution.


i'm glad yoghurt worked for you....i think minnie is just messed up enough that she needs something to coat her stomach and intestines not give her good bacteria, which the acids in her stomach will destroy anyway....

my vote goes to my new miracle worker, slippery elm...that i keep reading about and never understood until i used it and it was like a miracle for malia.


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

Ioana said:


> I am pretty new to raw and I sure don't know as much as other users, but I have an ideea. Why don't you try a combination between cooked and raw? Before I started to feed Tamir PMR I was feeding some kind of BARF: cooked rice with carrots and raw meat. I think you cold continue with the meat you are giving now and add to this some rice. This would help her gaining some weight and, after a while, you could go back to PMR. Also, the rice may be good for her stools.
> 
> My dog was doing fine on that diet. Sincerly, I haven't seen any change when I gave up the rice, altough I'm convinced it is not good for a dog. The only big change I saw was when I gave up kibbles.
> 
> ...


just my opinion, but at this point, minnie is so messed up that changing the diet might hurt more than help...when the problem was probably overfeeding in the first place....

i know plenty of folks both cook and give kibble and that's fine for a healthy dog, but this dog wasn't healthy in the first place....the trick right now is to get the diarrhea stopped.


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## Rdawson (Jun 1, 2011)

Have you thought about canned pumpkin?


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## minnieme (Jul 6, 2011)

Hi all,

Well, I talked to our vet tech a few days ago as our vet was out of town. She said to bring in a fecal sample this morning (when our awesome vet returned). Well guess what, fasting Minnie has ended all diarrhea. We fasted her for nearly 36 hrs......SO HARD for a mama, but clearly what she needed. I'm speculating that she lost a lot of water weight, but she seems to be feeling much better. So this morning we followed everyone's advice, and started with only a half of a pound. She will only get a pound total per day for a while (which I assure you -- she is NOT pleased with haha). I believe DaneMama said to remove some of the muscle meat to make it bonier...which we did. So far she is doing great. No squirts! Wahoo  Still no poop yet so it's hard to say, but I think her poor, inflamed gut was the big issue. We still are going to get a fecal done next week just to be sure...but I think she's just not a particularly resilient dog right now. If something goes wrong, she has diarrhea for a week -- this has happened to us before. It seems like fasting plus slippery elm is the only thing that brings her some relief.

We did try pumpkin (embarrassed to say, but I was DESPERATE). It did...sorta firm up poop but not really well. It didn't quell the frequent pooping and often it'd be a semi-solid lump followed by squirts. So it didn't seem too helpful in my opinion. 

Thank you all for being our cheerleaders; we <3 you! 

-Jill and Minnie


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## Liz (Sep 27, 2010)

So glad to hear she is feeling better. It is hard to fast them when they are already miserable but int he end it pays off. Good job! Will keep you and her in my thoughts.


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## Northwoods10 (Nov 22, 2010)

Jill I'm glad the fasting did the trick. Thats what was necessary for Remi too. Although we got by with a 24 hour fast. 

Please let us know what her fecal results are. 

Take it slow with her, You'll get back into feeding full meals before you know it. And if you hit a bump, you can always go and take a few steps back. Remi is up to his full meals now, a week after his upset tummy, thank goodness. He's very happy to be eating full meals again. 

Pumpkin just so you know can have both affects. It can firm up stools but it can also cause them to become loose. I keep it on hand, but mostly just for a little treat here and there in their kongs. I usually mix it with yogurt. 

I think all in all, when your dog is having diarrhea, fasting is the best. I don't like adding something to fix the problem...rid the gut of everything and let it rest. Then get back into feeding slowly. 

Let us know how she's doing tomorrow!! Hugs Minnie!!


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## kady05 (Jul 29, 2011)

magicre said:


> my vote goes to my new miracle worker, slippery elm...that i keep reading about and never understood until i used it and it was like a miracle for malia.


Slippery Elm is AWESOME! I just discovered it recently and it does wonders for my guys if they start having any issues. I'll always have some on hand from now on.


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

kady05 said:


> Slippery Elm is AWESOME! I just discovered it recently and it does wonders for my guys if they start having any issues. I'll always have some on hand from now on.


saved my dog from getting an unneccesary ultrasound for her 370.00 stomach ache.

sigh....yeah, me too.....i kept reading about it on the lists and when my malia stopped eating totally, after the vet visit showed nothing...i looked it up....

what a d'oh moment that was.


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## schtuffy (May 17, 2010)

Ok, where do you find this slippery elm everyone speaks of? I haven't heard of it until now.

Also, sorry I didn't catch this thread sooner, but I'm so happy to hear Minnie is doing well! Fasting her for 36 hours must have been tough...I struggle with 12 :frown:


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

schtuffy said:


> Ok, where do you find this slippery elm everyone speaks of? I haven't heard of it until now.
> 
> Also, sorry I didn't catch this thread sooner, but I'm so happy to hear Minnie is doing well! Fasting her for 36 hours must have been tough...I struggle with 12 :frown:


we found ours at super supplements...we gave her the capsules. we did not make a tea out of it. it worked within twelve hours. she ate.

it coats the gastric and intestinal tract....you just don't want to give it for too long because it can prevent nutrient absorption.


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## minnieme (Jul 6, 2011)

I got the powder online at amazon.com (or whole foods carries the powder too) .....but i would recommend the capsules -- the powder can be a pain (probably more so for dogs over 100 lbs  haha)


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## kady05 (Jul 29, 2011)

I got my slippery elm at one of my local health food stores. I got the capsules.. just break them open and sprinkle them over their food (add a litter water) and they eat it right up. Stuff works miracles!


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## RCTRIPLEFRESH5 (Feb 11, 2010)

minnieme said:


> To the kindest and most compassionate raw feeders around,
> 
> I need to hear about people who have also struggled like Minnie and I have. I keep reading through these forums and it seems like no one has problems like we do. The topic I previously posted about was Minnie (1.5 y.o. Great Dane) having diarrhea again. So I fasted her. I cut her food intake in half (only 1lb/day now). We have only gone for a few walks in the cool nighttime -- no more running around the dog parks (it has been EXTREMELY hot here recently). Still, the diarrhea continues. I mentioned before that she woke me up 5x in one night a few days ago -- that was awful -- but that hasn't happened again. She poops about 1-2x a day now (normal) but they are still runny, goopy messes. I suppose in a sense this is progress (she is going less often now) but I am still struggling so much with this. I am going to take a fecal to the vet tomorrow for sure. Does this sound on par with Giardia or some other parasite/bacteria?
> 
> ...


i am sure iwill get flack for this..but idc as id lie to offer the best opinion for you and minnie.

I believe that evo and orijen are very good quality kibbles. thta being said, there are many dogs who are more healthy and keep weight on better with totw which is considered a lower quality kibble.


i mention this because i believe the premise is the same with raw.

i think in GENERAL a raw diet is best for dogs. I do believe however that some dogs ust may do better on a ''downgrade'' to premium kibble.

you've even mentioned that your pup did better on premium kibble.

do not feed raw just because other people have noticed the miraculous effects...feed what is bedt for min.

-dave


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## kady05 (Jul 29, 2011)

RCTRIPLEFRESH5 said:


> i am sure iwill get flack for this..but idc as id lie to offer the best opinion for you and minnie.
> 
> I believe that evo and orijen are very good quality kibbles. thta being said, there are many dogs who are more healthy and keep weight on better with totw which is considered a lower quality kibble.
> 
> ...


I agree. I have two other dogs that do amazing on kibble (one eats Orijen, the other eats NV Instinct). I'm switching Piper to raw because she has ongoing stomach issues and this is really the only thing I haven't tried (short of feeding her Purina or something.. which I don't know if I can do!). At this point, I see no reason to switch my other two over to raw. Will I in the future? Maybe, I don't know. But I'm not one with the mind set of "RAW IS THE ONLY WAY TO GO!"


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## minnieme (Jul 6, 2011)

Hi all,

My original post was from about 2 weeks ago...we are doing much better now though! Our biggest issue was treats in the beginning and potentially overfeeding (though now I don't think it was the amount that was too much, but rather the fat content). Like I said though, she continues to do better every day..and loves her new diet.


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

kady05 said:


> I got my slippery elm at one of my local health food stores. I got the capsules.. just break them open and sprinkle them over their food (add a litter water) and they eat it right up. Stuff works miracles!


we didn't even do that. we put them in butter and slid them down her throat.


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## kady05 (Jul 29, 2011)

magicre said:


> we didn't even do that. we put them in butter and slid them down her throat.


LOL I guess I could've done that too, but adding it to their food seems a lot easier and.. less messy


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

kady05 said:


> LOL I guess I could've done that too, but adding it to their food seems a lot easier and.. less messy


butter slides right down....and malia would have to be dying to refuse butter.....and if she were dying, well, then slippery elm would be of no use...since she wasn't eating, there was no food to sprinkle it on....LOL


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