# can you educate me please???



## lmgakg (Jan 1, 2011)

Happy New Year to everyone! Okay, I am new here and a little background on me - I'm vegan, and have 2 dogs, a cat, rabbits, and reptiles. I choose to be vegan because that works for me - I don't preach and don't expect anyone else to "convert" unless of course they want to! That being said, I feed my lizards live food, my rabbits veggies, and my cat and dogs are all on Nutro. I have a Maltese who had terrible food allergies and I tried every vet I could find and every food I could find for roughly 5 years and Nutro seemed to work. He still chews a little on his paws, but not nearly as bad as he used to. So when I adopted a kitten, I started him on Nutro as well. I have hardwood floors and I'm amazed at how little my cat sheds and how shiny his coat is, my girlfriend switched her cat to Nutro and said she was amazed at how his shedding stoped and how great his coat is now. However, my cat, Bongo, is an indoor cat and is overweight! I can't seem to get his weight down. I don't do the treat thing, except for once in a great while and then it's only one. He's only abaout a year and a half. Soooo, I'm tempted to switch his food. Recently I adopted a large breed (Rott/Shepard mix) pup, he's about a year and has been on Nutro as well. He has a very nervous stomach - not sure why, I've had his since he was 8 wks, so it's not as though he's been abused, but he's very anxious. I've always believed in Nutro - not because of what I've read (I totally agree with the "studies" being linked to money and big companies rather than honesty), but because of the results in my house....and now I'm starting to second guess myself and when I try to research it and read what others think and have done and such so I can maybe find something that sounds like it's worth a try I just keep finding people say Nutro is BAD! I've recently been hearing a lot about "raw", but haven't really looked into it, because honestly - in my head it's gross, sorry, but I just keep thinking that there is no way I can hand my dog a hunk of uncooked flesh that has been rotting in a store somewhere (flesh starts decaying the second the blood stops pumping through it). Now I realize that my "thought" may not be what a raw diet actually is...so that is why I am here and what I'm wondering?? What exactly is it? Again, I'm vegan, I can not look at "graphic" photos, nor do I want to...


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

i was a great believer in nutro products, too, until i started studying ingredients....without dissecting each and every ingredient in nutro, the one that really stands out is their use of menadione sulfate

The Dog Food Project - Menadione (Vitamin K3)

four out of four shih tzus had elevated liver enzymes...they were not part of the same litter nor were they in any way related...the one thing in common they had was they lived with me and they ate what i fed them....

i find it interesting that your lizards are fed species appropriate as is your rabbit...so maybe it's time to read about a species appropriate diet for dogs and cats...

i am sure you've spent time assessing the value of vegan living for yourself....and you sound like you love your dogs and cats....i think they are worthy of the same study....

nutro is bad..mainly because of its ingredients.....also because it is processed food, far away from nature....

i read many forums....and there are plenty of vegetarians and vegans who work really hard to overcome their distaste for meat, so their dogs can eat a species appropriate diet....i think you've come to the right place to debate the issue and maybe go from second guessing to believing what's right for you isn't the same as what's right for your rabbits, your lizards, your dogs and your cats...

hi and welcome....


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## RawFedDogs (Jun 16, 2008)

Since you are basically asking questions about the raw diet, I moved this post to the raw section were you will get more answers from raw feeders.



lmgakg said:


> I've recently been hearing a lot about "raw", but haven't really looked into it, because honestly - in my head it's gross, sorry, but I just keep thinking that there is no way I can hand my dog a hunk of uncooked flesh that has been rotting in a store somewhere (flesh starts decaying the second the blood stops pumping through it).


Yes, decaying starts pretty fast, however the modern miracle of refigeration GREATLY slows this process and the even more maraculous process of freezing actually comes very close to stopping it. :smile: Even so, as gross as it is to humans, dogs are actually equipped to eat carrion which is a nice word for a rotting animal carcass.

The meat you would be handing your dog is far from that point and is actually pretty fresh. Grocery store meat is refigerated very quickly after death and is not rotting in the least in the accepted use of the word "rot".

What you have to wrap your head around is the fact that your dogs are carnivores. Carnivores, by definition, are meat eaters. Their whole bodies, from snout to anus is designed to eat, digest, and extract nutrients from meat, bones, and organs from any animal they can catch and kill. Their bodies have worked very well on this diet for a million years.

Not until humans started feeding them carbohydrates did dogs develop all the untold numbers of health problems todays dogs face. These problems are directly derived from the improper canine diet they have been forced to eat by humans. Feeding carbs to a dog is akin to feeding meat to a cow, horse, sheep, goat, deer, or any other herbivore. No one ever considers doing that but think nothing of feeding carbs to dogs. This is because of the wonderful marketing departments of the dog food companies.

Now, to learn more about exactly what a raw diet is, or at least the prey model raw diet that most of us feed, you can check out my web page linked in my sig. The page is designed to help people switch their dogs to a raw diet but it should give you some idea of what it is. If you have more specific questions, please feel free to ask and welcome to our group. :smile:


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## List (Oct 28, 2008)

Personally I wouldn't touch Nutro with a 10 foot pole...but thats just me. The ingredients and the company's history put it in my bad books. During the whole recall fiasco in 2007 I had the awesome job of tracking claims and issues for an insurance company. It was scary. 

Anyways.... a raw diet is based on feeding our pet carnivores what their designed to eat. No living breathing creature was designed to eat dried out pellets loaded with chemical preservatives, rancid fats and leftover floor sweepings. 
Most here feed a Prey Model diet which is based on 80% muscle meat, 10% organ and 10% edible bone. All of course fed raw. 
Cats and dogs have VERY different nutritional needs than people. Their whole physiology is for processing meat. Since the introduction and popularization of kibble, many 'human' diseases are now rampant in our pet population. Diabetes, IBD, immune related conditions, etc.... are the norm. And sadly all can be traced back to kibble. 

I personally feed raw because it makes sense. It may seem 'gross' but its about providing the proper nutrition to your pets. I know many vegan who feed their pets raw, as they've made a conscious decision to feed themselves properly, therefore they should feed their pet properly as well and that means raw.


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## lmgakg (Jan 1, 2011)

*thank you!*



magicre said:


> i was a great believer in nutro products, too, until i started studying ingredients....without dissecting each and every ingredient in nutro, the one that really stands out is their use of menadione sulfate
> 
> The Dog Food Project - Menadione (Vitamin K3)
> 
> ...


I love that you didn't give me some scientific crap - I LOVE personal experiences! That's the best knowledge - I believe. Anyway - if it helps my babies, then absolutely I would change their diet! But that's the thing, hte meat at the grocery store has been decaying for weeks and is pumped with chemicals so that's what grosses me out most! I'm feeding them Nutro because that is what I thought was the best option for them...with the least amount fillers and chemicals and such. I buy the big huge 40 pound bag of food and right now I'm at about half a bag left, so I thought (because when switching food, you have to do the whole 25/50, 50/50, 50/75 ratio thing) this would be a good time to find a new food to try....I've been reading online for 4 hours this morning! Also - unfortunately price is somewhat of an issue for me....I'm a single mom, so I am slightly limited, however can/will make sacrifices to help my guys be as healthy and happy as possible. Can you tell me what the raw diet consists of and how I would go about changing him over and stuff like that?? If you know...or where I could go to find USEFUL info?


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## lmgakg (Jan 1, 2011)

*Thank you*

Thank you to everyone who responded to me! Your thoughts are very much appreciated - kinda make me feel like a bad mom though, lol!!!!! You learn something new everyday! Yes, I am vegan because it made me feel better and made me physically healthier. I absolutely want to do the same for my kids, the two-legged one and the four-legged ones!!! The funniest thing is that all the reasons everyone has about feeding their dogs raw is basically the reasons I tried and decided to stay a vegan!!!


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## luvMyBRT (Mar 8, 2010)

Here are some links and info. I found very helpful. I'm so glad you are open to learning! :smile:

There is tons of wonderful information all over this website. 
How to get started | Prey Model Raw

You could look into seeing if there is a local co op near you. This is a GREAT way to get bulk meat at great prices...and it is usually excellent quality meat.
Raw Co-Ops | Prey Model Raw

Skylar, Zack, and Abby on the WEB


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## luvMyBRT (Mar 8, 2010)

lmgakg said:


> Thank you to everyone who responded to me! Your thoughts are very much appreciated - kinda make me feel like a bad mom though, lol!!!!! You learn something new everyday! Yes, I am vegan because it made me feel better and made me physically healthier. I absolutely want to do the same for my kids, the two-legged one and the four-legged ones!!! The funniest thing is that all the reasons everyone has about feeding their dogs raw is basically the reasons I tried and decided to stay a vegan!!!


Do not feel bad at all! :biggrin: We all have to start somewhere and I think it speaks a lot about you that you are here wanting to learn about better ways to feed your dogs. 

It is true that a healthy and balanced diet for a human is not going to be what is healthy and balanced for a dog. Dogs are carnivores and need to be fed as a carnivore should. :smile:


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## lmgakg (Jan 1, 2011)

Okay, I'm reading your link - it said chicken bones are soft and pliable????? Did I read that right??? I have always been told that chicken bones absolutely worst because they can get stuck and cause damage internally and everything???????


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## luvMyBRT (Mar 8, 2010)

lmgakg said:


> Okay, I'm reading your link - it said chicken bones are soft and pliable????? Did I read that right??? I have always been told that chicken bones absolutely worst because they can get stuck and cause damage internally and everything???????


COOKED chicken bones are the ones you have to worry about. Cooking them is what makes them brittle and they break and splinter.

RAW chicken bones are totally fine. Soft palatable and easily digestible for a dog. My dogs eat chicken almost every day. Raw bones are also what keep a raw fed dogs teeth pearly white. :smile:


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## SamWu1 (Oct 15, 2010)

I worked at an Eco-friendly pet food store where practically all the executives and owners were vegan and every single one of them fed their animals raw.

The meat they used however were all pasture raised animals so they feel a bit more comforted that the animals were raised humanely in a more natural environment. 

With that being said, I hate dry dog food. Anything that needs synthetic vitamins added in is obviously not nutritionally superior to whole, fresh foods.


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## whiteleo (Sep 7, 2008)

Chicken fed in their natural state, raw not cooked is the indeed o.k. to feed. Anything with bones that have been cooked is a no no.


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## lmgakg (Jan 1, 2011)

*Maybe this is a silly/dumb question....*

But it's still a question!!! Does anyone here have any experience feeding a raw diet to their dogs and have other small pets - say rabbits - that still roam free with the dog without the dog seeing them as dinner???????


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## luvMyBRT (Mar 8, 2010)

I don't have any small animals as pets, but I know others here do.

However, this is my opinion: If your dog sees your other pets as part of the "pack" they will not be seen as a possible food source.


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## 3Musketeers (Nov 4, 2010)

Organs are a pretty big ick factor, much more than just the meats (I never had problems with the meat at least), but sometimes you just have to suck it up and remember that it's for the best. I hate every time I have to touch a piece of liver or kidney, yet it also feels great that I'm doing this for the doggies and I wouldn't ever go back to feeding them kibble.

The meat at grocery stores may have been decaying for a while, it may also be pumped with chemicals, I'm not going to deny that this country is pretty bad when it comes to food-laws.
But, think of the meat (if any) used in kibble. It too is pumped with those same chemicals, not only that, but since it cannot even be used for human consumption it was probably out decaying much, much longer, and it can include parts such as tumors and other baddies.

Just my two cents. :biggrin:


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## 3Musketeers (Nov 4, 2010)

Yes, although they aren't mine, I have two chickens in the neighborhood. They were scared of my dogs at first but have gotten used to them, no, my dogs do not try to eat the chickens. They occasionally want to play with the chickens and scare the bejeesus out of them, but no harm done.

I also had a neighbor give me a rabbit they didn't want, this was before I started raw feeding, but I know that even now my dogs would not touch the rabbit. Sadly it escaped when someone was doing construction at my house, they saw the "cute" bunny and wanted to play with it.
It all has to do with how your dogs act around small pets, regardless of what you feed them.

One of them actually wanted to go in the cage with the bunny (so I let her for a while) and I have an old video of it, I have no doubts in my mind that she would act this ridiculous around a bunny again if given the chance.

YouTube - Popi v.s The Bunny




lmgakg said:


> But it's still a question!!! Does anyone here have any experience feeding a raw diet to their dogs and have other small pets - say rabbits - that still roam free with the dog without the dog seeing them as dinner???????


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## lmgakg (Jan 1, 2011)

*too cute!*

That is adorable!!! That's what my little guy does with my bunnies, my big one is more crazy, still friendly, but so excited it seems like he may explode!!


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## 3Musketeers (Nov 4, 2010)

Then you shouldn't have any worries. :biggrin:
I am more than sure that dogs do not associate raw with live animals. One is living, moving, fluffy, (and it plays! omg! omg!) <--- thinking how a dog might see it.
The other is something lifeless that comes out of the fridge and is given to them by you, human at fridge = lunchtime, yum.

If they see a dead, bloody animal lying around open, then maybe they will try something, but who's to say kibble-fed dogs wouldn't try it either? Lol, curiosity would probably win out in the end.


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## werecatrising (Oct 15, 2010)

I live in a multi species household! I have 2 dogs, 7 house cats, lots of bunnies, 3 guinea pigs, and a flock of chickens. I also care for a feral cat colony. The chickens free range. Darla is a pyrenees retriever mix. She is basically a member of the flock. She is with her birds 24/7. Quinn is a year old doberman. He doesn't really acknowledge the chickens until told to. If I can't find all of the birds at night he will sniff them out on command. Both dogs play with the rabbits and cats. I really don't think they see the critters they live with as a potential food source. (Aside from stealing eggs now and then)


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## lmgakg (Jan 1, 2011)

haha, that's good to know!!!


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## Muck (Nov 16, 2010)

I have a rabbit, chinchilla, and two ducks that live with us. I have never had any problems. I have a raw fed lab/weim, mountain cur mix and my parents kibble fed terrier mix. All of them are supose to have a high prey drive yet none of them have ever touched one of my animals but they sure looove their meat. If your dog doesnt have a high prey drive feeding them meat will not give them one. Raw does not give a dog a "taste for blood". I watch my dogs play bow and flop onto their bellies to my ducks after eating a big chicken quarter. 

Also isnt the meat in kibble been sitting around? Its probably the farthest from fresh in my opinion. 

Welcome and Happy new years too also


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## lmgakg (Jan 1, 2011)

*not about raw.....but*

Everyone has been so helpful, i figured what the heck! I am trying to upload a profile pic and have resized it to under 64kb and it keeps telling me that it can't save my pic. Any suggestions??????


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## Spaz (Sep 3, 2009)

Hannah is raw fed and my rabbit Toby is allowed free roam of the house all the time.


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## lmgakg (Jan 1, 2011)

Sooooo sweet! thank you!


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## RachelsaurusRexU (Sep 4, 2010)

My dogs are raw fed and I have cats (also raw fed) chickens, pigeons and rats. Nobody bothers anybody else. 

I am not vegan but I haven't eaten meat in about 13 years. When I first decided to raw feed these guys I truly didn't think I'd be able to handle it. Halfway through sorting out my first order, I realized that it wasn't nearly as horrid as I thought it would be. Now I actually quite enjoy watching my dogs eat, mainly because they obviously enjoy it so much. Plus, it's pretty fascinating!

I must commend you for considering this as an option, given your dietary choices. I know many vegans, most of whom have decided to try and change the nature of the beast by forcing a vegan diet upon their carnivorous animals. It makes me very happy to see people putting aside their personal convictions to do the right thing for the animals in their care.


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## lmgakg (Jan 1, 2011)

*no force feeding here!*

True I am vegan, however, I am because it's right for me. My daughter is 9, she loves mcdonalds chicken nuggets.....what kid doesn't???? I generally have ground turkey (she likes meatballs) and chicken in my freezer and have no problem cooking it for my family/friends. She does also like a lot of soy products and eats a lot of vegan meals too though. She is pretty open minded for a kid. My rule is 2 bites - no matter what it is, if you don't like it, you don't have to eat any more. In fact, I cooked for my dog for the first 2 years of his life, then I had a baby and he got a bag of dog food (he hated me for awhile). He's now 10, but my puppy had a tummy issue which my vets were saying was his dog food - so I stopped the dog food and went to chicken breasts (cooked) and white rice for about 2 months. So, I'm okay with cooking meat for others and okay with others eating it. I just am not okay with it being on my plate! 


And mentioning that i have ground turkey brought up another question i have. When i was COOKING chicken and rice for my dogs, i questioned my vet about turkey and he said that turkey isn't good for them because of something - honestly I didn't listen to his reasoning, I just followed direction - and that chicken was the way to go, or ground beef. Now we were talking about cooked meat, so maybe that's the difference????? IDK, but I have never asked his opinion on the raw diet before, but I have put a call into him. One of the things I like about him is he says that MOM always knows best, and sometimes meds help and a doc is needed, but 9 out of 10 times...mama is always right. He will give opinions and options and such, but is not pushy and definitely doesn't believe HIS way is better!!


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## lmgakg (Jan 1, 2011)

*nutrition/protein???????*

Interesting thing...in the middle of reading up on this raw diet - I spent time looking in my "Complete Vegan Kitchen" cookbook for a new recipe!!! And I went to the pet store for crickets and fruitflies for my lizards....I asked if they had any food for the raw diet as I was curious. (I have decided against pre-made raw because since then I have read about that!) But I was dumbfounded at the answer I received, because again, like meat eating people that are closeminded to my vegan way of life, I was told that "they (the petstore manager) did not sell raw stuff because they don't believe that our babies (pets) can get the proper nutrition from a raw diet." Frequently, I am told that I can't possibly get enough protein, calcium, and other nutrients because I don't eat meat and drink cow's milk! It's totally ridiculous and ignorrant of people to think that!!! And I'm not talking about the people that sincerely question, "how do you get protein?" because they are unaware and curious - that is totally smart and awesome in my opinion. Whether you agree or disagree wiht any lifestyle, being closed minded and assuming your way is the only way is just plain stupidity. It may be best for you, however, everyone is different. My printer has been working overtime today because I have been printing everything I can find! All the suggestions and links and sites that I have been given here are wonderful! The advice and opinions are very much appreciated! Everyone has roughly half a bag of food left, so I figure that is enough time for me to completely prepare myself for a trial run of this raw thing. When I became vegan, it was a trial run - its' been 4 years and it's still working for me, so I've stuck with it. I know it probably won't be an easy switch and it won't happen overnight, I'm prepared for the struggle. I will admit that the vomiting and diarrhea possibilities make me nervous as I am at work at day and they are left alone from 9-5...I'm thinking of fasting them on a Friday....starting meat on Saturday and maybe taking Monday off work just to have an extra day home for extra outside time?????? My 10 year old dog only eats once a day. Hwoever, my pup is just barely a year (end of Jan) large breed, prob about 60-70 pounds now, eats twice a day. Do I only feed once if feeding raw???


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## Cliffdog (Dec 30, 2010)

Just for the record- when switching to raw, it is best not to transition but to switch "cold turkey"- feed kibbles one day, and the next, 100% raw. I've read that dog kibble is harder to digest and thus the raw food can get "stuck in traffic" behind the kibbles if you feed both. I could be wrong though- I haven't made the transition yet, I'm just going based on a few weeks of research.


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## RachelsaurusRexU (Sep 4, 2010)

Yup! Once a day raw feeding is perfectly fine. And don't fret too much about potential vomiting and diarrhea. Many of us don't experience that with our dogs. Just take it slowly and pay attention to their stools and you'll be fine!

And I'm not sure about what the vet's reasoning could have possibly been with the turkey thing. I've never heard of any reasons that dogs shouldn't eat turkey and many of us feed it pretty regularly, especially around the holidays!


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## Caty M (Aug 13, 2010)

lmgakg said:


> But it's still a question!!! Does anyone here have any experience feeding a raw diet to their dogs and have other small pets - say rabbits - that still roam free with the dog without the dog seeing them as dinner???????


I have two conures who rule the house. The dog does not see them as food at all, same with my cats. I have a uromastyx lizard as well and the dog just ignores him. 

When people hear I feed a raw diet they ask if my dog is bloodthirsty and violent.. in reality he is the sweetest, lowest dominance and prey drive dog I have ever seen. :biggrin:


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## lmgakg (Jan 1, 2011)

Cliffdog said:


> Just for the record- when switching to raw, it is best not to transition but to switch "cold turkey"- feed kibbles one day, and the next, 100% raw. I've read that dog kibble is harder to digest and thus the raw food can get "stuck in traffic" behind the kibbles if you feed both. I could be wrong though- I haven't made the transition yet, I'm just going based on a few weeks of research.


Just to clarify - do you mean feed kibble one day and the next day go to raw and stick to raw or go back and forth????? I thought I read that you shouldn't feed both as it "confuses" their system because the body will produce different enzymes to digest the raw food as opposed to the kibble. I also read that it's a good idea to fast them for 24 hours before the switch just to ensure the kibble has all gotten out??????


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## luvMyBRT (Mar 8, 2010)

Fast for 24 hours. Being feeding 100% raw, no more kibble at all. :biggrin:


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## lmgakg (Jan 1, 2011)

*left overs....*

Not that there is ever food in anyone's dish left that they don't eat, but if there were, I wouldn't mind, however, with raw food, I will admit, I'd be slightly grossed out at raw chicken laying around the house. Not to mention, my house isn't equipped to kill the bacteria that could be in raw meat. I really don't have time to wash the kitchen floor after every meal. Their bowls go in the dishwasher every couple days, and I easily could wash the bowls every night (I would think that would be necessary with raw feeding, right?) ....Has this ever been a problem or has anyone found a good solution. Feeding them outside is not possible as I live in Michigan and it's freezing part the year and it's humid and sweltering for part.


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## luvMyBRT (Mar 8, 2010)

lmgakg said:


> Not that there is ever food in anyone's dish left that they don't eat, but if there were, I wouldn't mind, however, with raw food, I will admit, I'd be slightly grossed out at raw chicken laying around the house. Not to mention, my house isn't equipped to kill the bacteria that could be in raw meat. I really don't have time to wash the kitchen floor after every meal. Their bowls go in the dishwasher every couple days, and I easily could wash the bowls every night (I would think that would be necessary with raw feeding, right?) ....Has this ever been a problem or has anyone found a good solution. Feeding them outside is not possible as I live in Michigan and it's freezing part the year and it's humid and sweltering for part.


If there were to be any left over raw food, I would just pick it up and put it back in the fridge. However, I have never had any left over after giving my dogs their meal.

Do you have a laundry room or basement? Somewhere with a tile or lanolium floor? I feed my dogs in my laundry room with a tile floor when the weather is nasty and they can't eat outside. They actually do a really good job with cleaning up the floor. I leave a thing of disinfectant wipes down there and if I feel I need to wipe up I do so. However, I don't really ever have to. I don't ever wash their food bowls after every meal. I usually wash all the bowls once every week or two as they really never get that dirty.


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## RachelsaurusRexU (Sep 4, 2010)

I feed right off of the kitchen floor, no bowls, and quickly mop every few days...basically just after particularly messy meals. My cats have a designated section of the counter to eat on (the dogs will harass the bejesus out if them if they eat on the floor) and I wipe the counters down with diluted white vinegar after each meal.


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## lmgakg (Jan 1, 2011)

RachelsaurusRexU said:


> I feed right off of the kitchen floor, no bowls, and quickly mop every few days...basically just after particularly messy meals. My cats have a designated section of the counter to eat on (the dogs will harass the bejesus out if them if they eat on the floor) and I wipe the counters down with diluted white vinegar after each meal.


That's funny, in my house it's the cat that bothers the dogs when they are trying to eat!!! My big dog rotates his body around his dish while he eats so the cat can't get in to steal a bite!!!


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

lmgakg said:


> I love that you didn't give me some scientific crap - I LOVE personal experiences! That's the best knowledge - I believe. Anyway - if it helps my babies, then absolutely I would change their diet! But that's the thing, hte meat at the grocery store has been decaying for weeks and is pumped with chemicals so that's what grosses me out most! I'm feeding them Nutro because that is what I thought was the best option for them...with the least amount fillers and chemicals and such. I buy the big huge 40 pound bag of food and right now I'm at about half a bag left, so I thought (because when switching food, you have to do the whole 25/50, 50/50, 50/75 ratio thing) this would be a good time to find a new food to try....I've been reading online for 4 hours this morning! Also - unfortunately price is somewhat of an issue for me....I'm a single mom, so I am slightly limited, however can/will make sacrifices to help my guys be as healthy and happy as possible. Can you tell me what the raw diet consists of and how I would go about changing him over and stuff like that?? If you know...or where I could go to find USEFUL info?


as a medico, i can probably dig up all kinds of scientific crap as to why you should not be vegan LOL....

what you believe about meat in stores can also be applied to veggies and refrigerated stuff in stores too....so unless you're living on a farm, from the moment that orange is picked in mexico, it is decaying...the grapes from chile are decaying as they make their way to the US....and organic is suspect, as we all know...from whistle blower articles in the paper...

nothing is as fresh as going outside to the orchard i once had and picking an apple from the tree..

as to meats and such....i am a dedicated carnivore/omnivore....i eat no sugar, other than what is in the food itself...no grains, no starches....my diet consists of fruits, veggies, protein...that's it...and that's my belief after studying as you have....

i think the other thing to remember is that the human body adapts.....as do dogs....just as we adapt to bug spray and hormones and antibiotics, dogs adapt to strange little pieces of hard things called food.....and we are supposed to be impressed that this little nugget was once a whole bunch of things magically turned into a wholesome piece of food in a bag that has sat on shelves for how long?

when i finally pulled my head out of the sand, i studied the ingredients in dog food....and i kept thinking, but they are carnivores....it was unsettling that my dogs were getting dandelions and fake vitamin k3 and things no one should eat....

and finally, that's what convinvced me....it's possible my eggs come from caged chickens whose feet never touch the ground...there is much to be changed about the food industry...but my back yard is simply not large enough for a farm and my income does not permit paying what organic charges....16.00 per pound for a piece of meat....or so...

i belong to a co op and we try to buy in bulk and get pricing that is more doable...and whether the animal is grass fed, grain finished or not...it's better than kibble...because kibble is processed food.

i don't eat processed food, not even chicken mcnuggets....why would i make my dogs do it....and that's what got me started down this wonderful road...

plus, you should come over and see my dogs....wow.

read natalie and jon's manifesto....read rawfeddog's website....that's a great place to start.

second great place to start is to go buy chicken backs.....we can help you figure out how much to start with....transition takes about a year, but the first eight weeks takes the most attention....

and ask lots of questions.


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## lmgakg (Jan 1, 2011)

I agree whole heartedly on processed stuff. i never really cared for meat to begin with, and my body cant handle dairy - and it grosses me out. But again, it works for me so I do it. And Nutro is not working for my dogs so I am changing that. I can't say that raw will work for them as I have no experience, however I can't say it wont work either! All I can say is it makes sense...so I will give my all to try it. Cuz, yes, my dogs are my babies!!! Even the big moose with his foot in my back currently and taking up more than half of my bed! Good thing I don't have a boyfriend!!! 

The biggest thing that makes me want to try this is the fact that no one that opposes it really has a reason why, other than "because." Well, to me, that's not a reason. I have spent another whole day devoted to internet research, and yep, read and printed Natalie's info. It's on the kitchen table. There is a meat market near me. I'm going to call them tomorrow and ask questions. I think that will be my biggest problem per se to overcome - finding a place to get the meat from. I did get a link from someone, but it was for BARF, which doesn't really make sense, so.....idk. I have about a week or so left of Nutro, I dont' have a deep freezer - obviously it was never needed before. But I do have a beer fridge downstairs and that freezer is generally empty! 

I did read today that if a dog has kidney problems that raw may not be the way to go because it would produce something that could make the kidneys worse....and that a blood test could help determine that in the beginning.....do you know anything about that??? My maltese is 10 and in the last year or so he is starting to show that he is aging, he healthy and all and still active, but he a little slower and he somehow caught a cold last winter. How crazy is that???? I've never even heard of that before. It was sooo gross though, he sneezed constantly and he couldn't blow his nose, so out it all came all over everything!!!!!! ewwwwww. but anyway - are blood tests a good idea? I just hate to try to do something good for them, do it wrong and cause damage. And I'm slightly overprotective.....


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## lmgakg (Jan 1, 2011)

magicre said:


> plus, you should come over and see my dogs....wow.
> 
> and ask lots of questions.


And, lucky for you, you don't live in the same state, becasue I would have been knocking at your door last night and I'd still be on your couch asking questions!!!!! Seriously though, you guys are all great on here. I've been reading about the breeder (sorry - it's only my 2nd day, I don't have everyone's name down!) and the problems she having with that crazy lady - my heart goes out to her, it's so awful when during a crisis, she has to go and make it all worse and get involved to only cause more pain!!!


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## lmgakg (Jan 1, 2011)

*Detroit anyone????*

Just occurred to me that although I haven't seen a Detroiter on here so far that there may be one lurking around....so if anyone knows anyone that feeds raw in the Detroit metro area - can you point them in my direction please?????? Maybe we can share costs and orders and stuff....or they could at least give me a heads up where to go!


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

and i would serve you tea and celery LOL as we discussed the ins and outs of raw.....

i think researching is essential if for no other reason than to build up your comfort level and the level of your commitment down the line....some dogs transition beautifully and some dogs hit some bumps in the road....usually user error....

my malia was ten when we switched her....her kimba had died a few months earlier ( one of my shih tzu nutro dogs).....and we watched her start to sleep...we knew she was getting older, but the sleeping bothered me, so we got the pug...who aggravated her back to life..

but that just wasn't enough for me....we switched to wellness after i started really reading about dog food...annd i still wasn't satisfied, being a bit of a nutrition nut myself...

i was fanatical in my research...you sound much like me...and it wasn't until i read three different forums....rawfeddog's posts on every one of them, and a girl called mandypug.....was i rapidly seeing the common sense of feeding a carnivore suitable carnivore food...

and then one day....i just jumped in with both feet and screwed both dogs digestive systems.....hershey squirts and horking up (regurgitating food)...what i didn't know was i was too tense...i didn't know that if the food doesn't go down the first time, they 'hork' it up and eat it again...they are very efficient eating machines if we humans would just give them what they need and then watch but step back....they do figure it out...

with the help olf this forum, my dogs finallly got onto the right track and now.....here's the part you're going to want to read....my malia, who willl be eleven in two weeks, is acting like a five year old....she plays, she bounces.....

i'm not saying she'll live forever...i will say she's living better...and i wish i had started her at five weeks when she crawled out of a georgia ditch....but...better late than never....

my pug who is a brachycephalic dog is prone to ear and eye infections, but not since we switched.....his teeth had mild periodontal disease when we got him at age two...now his teeth glow in the dark, bright and white.....and these pugs...don't have the best teeth....but he does...

we were going to do blood work...and we will with malia because a comparison geriatric panel for an older dog is a good idea, i think....but not because of the raw, just to make sure she's healthy and we haven't missed anything...

when we switched malia, she had just gotten over giardia...not common for a ten year old dog....she has not gotten sick since...

it's an objective observation...and since i keep journals about my dogs...i go back to the beginning and wow....almost a year later...they simply aren't the same dogs...and i attribute it to a carnivore's diet....

so you come on over any time....i'll even dig up a vegan dinner for you : )


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## lmgakg (Jan 1, 2011)

Okay, yeah I guess I really didn't mean because I'm feeding him raw get blood tests, more because he's getting older and I wouldn't be able to handle it if something was wrong and I missed it. 

And - vodka is vegan!!! :biggrin:


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

lmgakg said:


> Okay, yeah I guess I really didn't mean because I'm feeding him raw get blood tests, more because he's getting older and I wouldn't be able to handle it if something was wrong and I missed it.
> 
> And - vodka is vegan!!! :biggrin:


well if vodka is vegan, then i'm down for that....being russian and all : )

i would always recommend a geriatric blood panel as a baseline around this age or even a year earlier.....i have done it with all of my dogs...simply because, well, they're getting older...

i get blood work every year where i wouldn't have in my thirties....

a panel catches thyroid abnormalities or something else...or it shows that the blood chemistry is normal....and then every year thereafter, i repeat a blood panel..

i don't know what effect raw feeding has on the blood...although when i changed my eating habits, certain values did change...not in any significant way, but most definitely some values changed and continue to change the longer i eat the way i eat...

so not a bad thing necessarily....but it's nice to see numbers within normal limits or catch something early....


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## sassymaxmom (Dec 7, 2008)

A raw diet with 10% bone has the right amount of calcium and phosphorus but a kidney dog needs to limit phosphorus after the disease reaches a certain point, that's all. You could feed a smaller amount of bone and perhaps more fat to manage the phosphorus and retain enough calories then add in plain calcium carbonate for more calcium. 

I would work up Sassy's diet and she could have eaten something like 8 ounces of raw meat and 4 ounces of raw fat with calcium added but that wouldn't have agreed with her stomach. I snuck her a chicken foot or beef rib sometimes anyway.

Get the blood test so you know if something is brewing. I am so glad Sassy never went into a crisis with emergency hospitalization with those huge bills as her problem was picked up during routine pre surgery blood testing. She just nickel and dimed us for 3.5 years and we were happy to do it.


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## lmgakg (Jan 1, 2011)

Thanks again you guys!!! Now it's time to attempt to reclaim at least a portion of my bed and maybe if I'm lucky some of the covers too!!! 

Good night all!


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