# Is My Dog Getting Enough



## Trinas Mom

My 14 year old Beagle/Springer Spaniel is recovering from an infection in her pancreas. The vet reccommended "keeping" her on Prescription Pet ID Dog food. I don't think she is getting enough food, fed 3 x's a day, one cup dry, or even getting enough vitamins. Does anyone know anything about this type of food?


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## RawFedDogs

Science Diet prescription dog foods are among the lowest quality of all dog foods. Vets recommend them because they sell them and they make a good markup on them. You are absolutely correct about your dog not getting enough nutrients from this food. Lets look at the ingredients.
Ground whole corn ... Corn is not digestable by dogs at all. Dogs can extract no 
nutrients from corn.

Brewers Rice ... Rice has basically no nutrients. Brewers rice is basically floor sweepings from beer companies.

Dried egg product ... After exaustive research, I can find no explanation as to what this is. Eggs are shell, yoke, and white. Which of these is or is not in dried egg product? Seems no one knows.

Chicken by-product meal ... this is basically ground up chicken heads, feet, and guts.

Corn glutten meal ... more indegestable corn stuff. 

Pork fat ... ok, fat from pigs. 

powdered cellulose ... this is a fancy word for sawdust

The balance of the ingredients is a list of chemicals added because all of what little nutrients were in this mix was cooked out in the rendering process.

The last entry on the ingredients list is Ethoxyquin which is known to cause cancer in lab rats. 

Sooooo ... there you are, a breakdown of what you are feeding your dog. It is a very low quality food that is very high priced.


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## Trinas Mom

Thanks! Any recommendations on what I can feed her? It has to be easily digestable because of the infection in the pancreas. Vet says if she eats foods that are hard to digest she can and probably will get the infection back because of her age.


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## RawFedDogs

There is no kibble you can feed that is easy to digest. I suggest you feed raw bone-in chicken breasts for a few weeks. I would remove the skin. Nothing else need be fed during his 2 week period.


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## glassygal

While I agree that raw food is great nutrition and is much better than any kibble, you may also want to consider a high quality canned food like Halo's Spot's stew. I liken it to chicken soup for dogs. Also if feeding raw or canned, try letting the food warm up to room temperature before feeding - it helps things go down better for sick dogs too.


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## chinookrun

I agree that Science Diet is amongst the worst of all foods and it blows me away that ANY vet can look a client in the eye and say it is the best thing for their pet! I feed a combo of high quality kibble, home cooked food, and raw. I have 8 dogs and do recreational mushing. I occassionally have litters. My dogs have great coats, good health, and don't fill my yard with poo. Is there a natural/holistic vet in your area? They are increasingly common and they could steer you towards a good diet for your dog's condition.

Carie Taylor
Moonsong Chinook


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## RawFedDogs

The problem with Spot's Stew is that it's mostly veggies. Again, dogs are carnivores. Veggies and grains are a spieies inappropriate food for dogs. Would you feed meat to a horse?


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## bellamicuore

Completely agree with the first reply about Science Diet.

I feed Bella a dehydrated raw called Honest Kitchen. I feed her the Force, which is grain free. I sometime add sweet potato or cottage cheese to it. In the morning I feed her Fromm grain free kibble. She loves both and does quite well with both. And Bella does have occasional seizures, so I've been trying to cut out as much grain as possible.


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## glassygal

Before Rawfeddogs spreads misinformation about Spot's stew - the first ingredients in any dog food make up the majority of the contents of that food. The first two ingredients in spot's stew are chicken and chicken broth. Both are good sources of protein. Maybe you should read the labels before making statements about the content of the food. I only mentioned spot's stew since the dog in question is healing and in my experience with ill and dying dogs, spot's stew is very palatible and easy to digest. Hope this helps.


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## RawFedDogs

glassygal, you will learn in time that RawFedDogs does not spread misinformation. Every post I make is well researched and I can back up anything I say. First on the canned food in question has chicken and chicken broth as the first two ingredients but that doesn't mean that they make up a majority of the volume of the "food". Lets look at what "broth" is ... "broth" is nothing more than water and juice that chicken is cooked in. You boil chicken and take the chicken out of the pot and what is left is the broth. Not a lot of nutrition there. Then there is chicken ... yes chicken is a good ingredient. In this case, the chicken and broth don't have to make up more than about 10% of the volume in the can. I strongly suspect that chicken is less than 5%. Besides the chicken and broth in this food, it also contains: carrots, celery, yellow squash, zucchini, chicken liver, pasta, green peas, green beans, turkey, calcium citrate, barley, oats, dicalcium phosphate, soy sauce, dried kelp, garlic, zinc gluconate, ascorbic acid, copper gluconate. Not one of these other ingredients is a species appropriate food for a carnivore. Protein in this "food" is 3.5%. That tells me that there is very little chicken in the can. 88% moisture tells me there is a lot of water and broth.

The very fact that there is 3.5% protein and 1.5% fat is an indication that this "food" is not very nutritious. It also says that there are a lot more veggies than meat. Veggies are very difficult for a dog to digest. His body is not designed to digest veggies. His body is designed to eat meat, bones, and organs of any animal he can catch and kill. He has been doing that for millions of years.

I did read the label before I made my original post. :lol: :lol: :lol:


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## Guest

Not everybody can go raw (despite our knowing how good it is for our dogs). I am one of those people. Instead, I choose to do a very high quality kibble.

OP - maybe you could try a really good canned food such as Innova EVO's 95% formulas (95% venison, 95% duck, 95% etc). This is a very very high quality food. You could also try supplementing with some green tripe. It's pretty easy to find canned or raw (if going raw make sure it's green tripe, not that bleached stuff you'd find at the grocery store). It smells to high heaven but dogs love this stuff, and it's full of good nutrients for them.


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## glassygal

RawFedDogs said:


> I strongly *suspect* that chicken is less than 5%.


Suspicions are NOT based on FACT. After going to your nutrition page I see that you are one of THOSE who believe there is only ONE way to feed raw correctly. Come on - it's difficult enough to get folks to switch to raw without people like you harping on them that feeding veggies is WRONG. There are many different ways to feed or start to feed raw - why not try to open your mind and see that feeding something easy and palatable (like spot's stew) is still better than feeding kibble and let it go? Jeez......


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## glassygal

LPacker79 said:


> Not everybody can go raw (despite our knowing how good it is for our dogs).


Hi Leeanne
I'm curious why you cannot feed raw? I'm not being judgemental at all I just like to learn more why some folks can't feed raw? Thanks.


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## RawFedDogs

Hey glassygal,
It is a little more than suspicion.  Just look at the economics of it. Meat is the most expensive ingredient in all the dog foods. Dog food companies put as little as they have to and still keep the meat at or close to the top if the ingredients list. There are many tricks they use to do this and keep the meat at a minimum. I have spent many years studying this and know how it's done.

Yes there IS only one correct way to feed a dog. It was designed by nature and created over millions of years of evolution. Dogs are carnivores. As such, their entire bodies are designed to eat, digest, and utilize meat, bones, and organs. They are not designed to eat plant material and cannot extract nutrients from fruits, veggies, or grains. They have no need for any nutrients that are not in meat, bones, and organs. Feeding veggies to a carnivore is similar to feeding meat to a horse or cow or deer or sheep.

My Abby (8yo Great Dane) has not eaten any plant material of any kind in 6 years. 
My Thor (3yo Great Dane) has never eaten a veggie since he was 12 weeks old. You would think that if they needed veggies for health, something would be have shown up by now. They are both very healthy and have only seen the vet once a year for heartworm tests in the last 6 years. Neither has had any medical problem, allergies or injuries in their lives. How many people can say that about their dogs? I've had my present vet for 3 1/2 years and he doesn't know my name, my dog's names or my cats names. None of us have seen him enough for him to learn them. That should tell you something. The diet is the secret.

*Edited to add:* BTW teaching someone the correct way to feed raw does not impede someone's ability to convince someone to switch to a raw diet. Actually, since feeding raw the correct way is so much easier than the other way, it makes it easier. I have helped over 150 people switch to raw in the last 6 years and help more all the time.


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## Rachelle07

My italian greyhound just got over pancreatitis and the vet now wants him on Science Diet I/D or Z/D. I absolutely hate this food. I'm currently trying to find a different food for him that won't upset his tummy. He was previously eating Oma's Pride raw and Nature's Variety Grain Free Kibble at night. I think I'm going to try Wellness Simple Solutions for dogs w/ sensitive tummies/allergies. Since Beckham has had a history of an upset tummy the vet suspects there could be a food allergy (although he's been on all different types)...


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## Guest

glassygal said:


> I'm curious why you cannot feed raw? I'm not being judgemental at all I just like to learn more why some folks can't feed raw? Thanks.


I can't get my boyfriend on board, and he makes all the money LOL! I think I've now got him convinced of the value of a good kibble, and that took me 3 years. He was feeding Science Diet (um......ewww) for the first 7 years he had him and he thought it was a great food. I was researching food long before then (late 90's) and knew better. In his opinion raw is gross and he doesn't want that mess in the apartment.

Cost is another consideration. A 30lb bag of kibble (last bag was a 35lb bag of Great Life which cost $85) will last 3 months. He also gets canned Innova Evo and green tripe occasionally as well as marrow bones. I think I've reached the limit Randy will let me spend on dog food.

Space is definitely a factor as well. I understand that bulk is the way to go when buying raw, and my freezer space is jam packed as it is. I live in an apartment so space is at a premium. I've contemplated that dehydrated raw, but also have reservations on how it compares to premade raw such as Oma's or Primal. The Great Life kibble I bought last week has a dehydrated raw coating, though I certainly am not comparing that to real raw LOL.


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## Stella08

*I am new here I have a question*

I have a chihuahua of 4 lb.. I give her some meat or chicken..not row at all.. little cooked, she got diarrhea.. but I disagree to give her chicken's bones.. is danger..
so.. my question is how much row meet or chicken I should give it to her???

Thanks so much


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## RawFedDogs

Stella08 said:


> I have a chihuahua of 4 lb.. I give her some meat or chicken..not row at all.. little cooked, she got diarrhea.. but I disagree to give her chicken's bones.. is danger.. so.. my question is how much row meet or chicken I should give it to her???


My dogs have been eating chicken, turkey, pork, deer, and fish bones for 6 years without one problem. Dogs have been eating bones for millions of years. They know how to do it and their bodies can handle them just fine.

BIG WARNING: Don't feed cooked bones. Those ARE dangerous as cooking can make them brittle and they can splinter. Raw bones are fine.

Bones are an essential part of the raw diet and you can't just leave them out. Nor can you leave organs out of the diet.

To answer your question, rule of thumb is to feed your dog 2% to 3% of his ideal adult weight/day. Small dogs like yours can eat as much as 4$ or 5% of their weight/day as they are pretty active dogs. Soooo ...your little dog can eat around 2 1/2 to about 3 1/4 oz/day. Thats just a tiny amount of food compared to my 145lb dogs. LOL

If your dog starts to get too heavy, feed less and if it gets too thin, feed more. The percentages I gave you are only a starting point.


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## Stella08

*Thanks for your response*

Thanks for your information is really helpful for me.. but 3 or 4 oz a day, mean like a coup of yougurt? that size? My dog never finish what I give it to her.. some times I feel afraid she will be hungry during the day.. so I try to put more food in her bowl.. but in the end of the day that food goes to the trash.. because she didn't eat it everything..

For your experience.. which can food is good? I try w/ Purina, Pedigree, Eukanuba..now Inna evo, I try to change to see what she like.. but I will follow your advice and I will feed her some raw meet.

thanks for your help.


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## RawFedDogs

Stella08 said:


> For your experience.. which can food is good? I try w/ Purina, Pedigree, Eukanuba..now Inna evo, I try to change to see what she like.. but I will follow your advice and I will feed her some raw meet.


In my experience there is NO good canned or dry food. It is all garbage and not fit for a dog to eat.


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## clmalcolm

*go innova evo*

I vote either of the EVO line products by Innova


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## nutritioninformed

I'm sorry but you're breakdown of the ingredients in the prescription diet really shows how much ignorance there is when it comes to reading dog food labels. Science diet is recommended, along with many other "prescription" foods because they have EXHAUSTIVE research done to make sure that they are complete, healthy and appropriate for whatever condition the animal is having. (by the way, veterinarians do not make great revenue, or receive kick backs from the company) Raw diets, especially just meat, is not complete for a dog. Dogs ARE NOT strict carnivores. They require some vitamins and minerals not found in only meat and bones. If you are feeding your dog raw meat they should also be receiving other supplements and vitamins to make it complete. Can dogs survive ok on it? Sure. I could theoretically survive eating only meat and bones for 8 to 10 years, but we all know we do better with more than that. Cats on the other hand are more of a strict carnivore. Very few of the natural or holistic pet foods have the research done by board certified nutritionists. I'm not saying they are bad foods, I'm just saying there is very little good research done on them to prove they are balanced and complete. Anybody can put together a dog food, and as long as they do enough testing to show it meets AAFCO requirements it can be sold. Any food suggesting they are balanced and complete for all life stages is incorrect. That statement in itself is false. Please before believing everything you read on the internet, do research at a NEUTRAL, UNBIASED, website. Look for a website done by a board certified veterinary nutritionist or university. Look for a website about interpreting AAFCO Statements (by the way do you know what the aafco statement on your food says? It's very important) I will look for some to suggest in the future. I make recommendations based on proven research, and I keep my personal opinions at bay to keep myself unbiased. There is not one food that every single animal on earth is going to do well on. Please lets keep good research and data at the forefront. I can hardly watch the evening news anymore due to all the poorly researched stories they put on.


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## nutritioninformed

RawFedDogs said:


> My dogs have been eating chicken, turkey, pork, deer, and fish bones for 6 years without one problem. Dogs have been eating bones for millions of years. They know how to do it and their bodies can handle them just fine.
> 
> BIG WARNING: Don't feed cooked bones. Those ARE dangerous as cooking can make them brittle and they can splinter. Raw bones are fine.
> 
> Bones are an essential part of the raw diet and you can't just leave them out. Nor can you leave organs out of the diet.
> 
> To answer your question, rule of thumb is to feed your dog 2% to 3% of his ideal adult weight/day. Small dogs like yours can eat as much as 4$ or 5% of their weight/day as they are pretty active dogs. Soooo ...your little dog can eat around 2 1/2 to about 3 1/4 oz/day. Thats just a tiny amount of food compared to my 145lb dogs. LOL
> 
> If your dog starts to get too heavy, feed less and if it gets too thin, feed more. The percentages I gave you are only a starting point.




Can I share how many dogs I have had to treat with intestinal obstructions due to feeding RAW or COOKED BONES? Regardless of whether cooked or raw the bones are swallowed in small pieces that can pack together in the intestines and form an obstruction. Most commonly occurs in the large intestine as this is where water is mainly absorbed and really packs the pieces together. Not only that, but the number of diarrhea cases I treat because of eating bones would fill a book.


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## bellamicuore

Um, I'm sorry, but the ingredients pretty much speak for themselves. If anyone knows anything about the ingredients listed in Science Diet, they know this food is crap. AND, maybe not all, but MANY vets absolutely do receive commissions from selling Science Diet. I worked at a vet hospital and I know this for a fact.



nutritioninformed said:


> I'm sorry but you're breakdown of the ingredients in the prescription diet really shows how much ignorance there is when it comes to reading dog food labels. Science diet is recommended, along with many other "prescription" foods because they have EXHAUSTIVE research done to make sure that they are complete, healthy and appropriate for whatever condition the animal is having. (by the way, veterinarians do not make great revenue, or receive kick backs from the company) Raw diets, especially just meat, is not complete for a dog. Dogs ARE NOT strict carnivores. They require some vitamins and minerals not found in only meat and bones. If you are feeding your dog raw meat they should also be receiving other supplements and vitamins to make it complete. Can dogs survive ok on it? Sure. I could theoretically survive eating only meat and bones for 8 to 10 years, but we all know we do better with more than that. Cats on the other hand are more of a strict carnivore. Very few of the natural or holistic pet foods have the research done by board certified nutritionists. I'm not saying they are bad foods, I'm just saying there is very little good research done on them to prove they are balanced and complete. Anybody can put together a dog food, and as long as they do enough testing to show it meets AAFCO requirements it can be sold. Any food suggesting they are balanced and complete for all life stages is incorrect. That statement in itself is false. Please before believing everything you read on the internet, do research at a NEUTRAL, UNBIASED, website. Look for a website done by a board certified veterinary nutritionist or university. Look for a website about interpreting AAFCO Statements (by the way do you know what the aafco statement on your food says? It's very important) I will look for some to suggest in the future. I make recommendations based on proven research, and I keep my personal opinions at bay to keep myself unbiased. There is not one food that every single animal on earth is going to do well on. Please lets keep good research and data at the forefront. I can hardly watch the evening news anymore due to all the poorly researched stories they put on.


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## RawFedDogs

nutritioninformed said:


> I'm sorry but you're breakdown of the ingredients in the prescription diet really shows how much ignorance there is when it comes to reading dog food labels.


Hehe, Nutrition informed you are not. 



> Science diet is recommended, along with many other "prescription" foods because they have EXHAUSTIVE research done to make sure that they are complete, healthy and appropriate for whatever condition the animal is having.


You have attended way too many SD seminars. You are beginning to believe their BS. Doesn't it strike you as odd that all these "miracle" ingredients in these prescription foods are the absolutely cheapest that can be bought? Amazing, huh?



> (by the way, veterinarians do not make great revenue, or receive kick backs from the company)


They are selling a product with the cheapest ingredients and above premium prices. Tell me someone isn't making money.



> Raw diets, especially just meat, is not complete for a dog. Dogs ARE NOT strict carnivores.


There are physical charateristics that make an animal a carnivore or omnivore.

1. Carnivores have large mouths as they eat other animals. Omnivores/herbivores have smaller mouths.

2. Omnivores have flat teeth in the back of their mouths. This is used to crush and mash plant material. All plant material has each cell coated with cellulose. You much mash and crush this shell to extract nutrients from the plant. Humans have these flat teeth. Carnivores don't have flat teeth. They can't get through the cellulose to get to the nutrients. Carnivore teeth are designed to kill prey(front teeth) and to rip and tear meat and crush bones(back teeth).

3. When omnivores/herbivores chew, they move their lower jaw not only up and down but also sideways in order to crush the cellulose. Carnivores don't have the ability to move their lower jaw from side to side. Only up and down.

4. Omnivores/herbivores hae an enzyme called amylaze in their salava and stomach juices. Amylaze is used to digest plant material and digestion begins in the mouth for these animals. Carnivores don't have amylaze in their salava or stomach. They don't make the enzymes necessary for digesting plant material.

5. I don't know how to explain it with words but there is a difference in the way the lower jaw is hinged in omnivores/herbivores and carnivores.

6. Carnivores have very acidic stomach juices to kill bacteria on meats and to digest bones. Omnivores/herbivores have much less acidic stomach juices.

7. Omnivores/herbivores have relatively long intestinal tracts. As rosemary said, carbs must ferment in the gut for a long time during digestion. Carnivores being meat eaters have a very short intestinal tract in order to get the meat through the body quickly before it rots. With thier short intestinal tract they are not able to have carbs in the intestines long enough to digest.

So there you have your biology lesson in a nutshell. There is no arguing the fact that dogs are carnivores. Dogs have all the physical characteristics of a carnivore and none of the omnivores characteristics. Kinda makes them look like a carnivore, huh?



> They require some vitamins and minerals not found in only meat and bones. If you are feeding your dog raw meat they should also be receiving other supplements and vitamins to make it complete.


Name some of these mysterious vitamins and minerals that are not in meat, bones, OR organs.



> Can dogs survive ok on it? Sure. I could theoretically survive eating only meat and bones for 8 to 10 years, but we all know we do better with more than that.


You keep leaving out organs. Yes WE can do better with more than that. WE are omnivores. Dogs are carnivores as I've already shown and everything they need is in meat bone and organs.



> Cats on the other hand are more of a strict carnivore.


There are no degrees of carnivorism. Either an animal is a carnivore or an omnivore or herbivore. There is no in between. A dog is just as much a carnivore as a cat. The difference is that a cat MUST have taurine in his diet as his body is not capable of producing it. Dogs produce it internally and don't have to have it in the diet.



> Very few of the natural or holistic pet foods have the research done by board certified nutritionists. I'm not saying they are bad foods, I'm just saying there is very little good research done on them to prove they are balanced and complete. Anybody can put together a dog food, and as long as they do enough testing to show it meets AAFCO requirements it can be sold.


Do you know what those requirements are?



> I make recommendations based on proven research, and I keep my personal opinions at bay to keep myself unbiased.


I'd like to see some of that research that is unbiased.


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## RawFedDogs

nutritioninformed said:


> Can I share how many dogs I have had to treat with intestinal obstructions due to feeding RAW or COOKED BONES?


Can I share how many vets have performed unnecessary surgery to remove what they thought was an intestinal obstruction which was no more than a bone or bones normally working their way through the intestine?

I remember one particular lady who wrote in to a list I was on telling us how her dog had swallowed a chicken drumstick. She rushed him to the emergency vet who panicked and performed $2,000 surgery on the dog to remove the bone from the stomach. If hey had left it alone for 4 or 5 hours it would have disolved and disappeared.

I took one of my dogs to the vet one time and after an xray he came out to me all upset telling me how my dog had bones in her stomach. I told him she had eaten 2 chicken quarters a few hours ago and bones in her stomach would be expected. Nothing was done about the bones and they digested normally as they do every day. This kind of stuff happens every day in vet's offices across the country.

Dogs bodies can handle bones just fine. They have been doing it for millions of years.


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## rannmiller

*In response to all of this...*

I, too, have done a lot of research on the raw food diet and find it to be the best one out there by far. It makes me laugh a little when people don't want to feed raw but are perfectly willing to cook the food for their dogs instead because: 

1. That defeats the purpose of feeding them food yourself with a home/all natural remedy since cooking the meat destroys the essential enzymes found in RAW meat. 

2. It makes the bones dangerous and therefore inedible for dogs, thus destroying the necessary calcium/phosphorus ratio needed to keep dogs healthy. 

3. Isn't cooking the food and coming up with fancy recipes and taking time to bake/boil/grill the food more work than just pulling the raw meat out of the package and handing it to your dog for their eating pleasure?

Now back to Science Diet, I've heard numerous times that veterinarians fresh out of school will receive a huge amount of money from SD to start up their veterinary clinics if they are willing to pedal SD as the best food out there. Iams/Eukanuba does this too. Yet anyone with vision and/or a lick of common sense can clearly see that the ingredients in it are cheap and below low quality. How does this make for a "premium" dog food? Simple answer: it doesn't. 

Yet another subject, dogs do eat the stomach bags of animals that they've killed in the wild, so getting some fruits and veggies into their diet that would normally be found in the stomachs of their prey is a good idea. However, you must make this food resemble as closely as possible the food found in the animals because, as RawFedDogs said, dogs aren't omnivores. But if you want to your dogs to get any nutrition out of it because dogs cannot break down the cellulose walls of fruits and veggies, you have to do it for them. So you must either puree or cook the fruits and veggies, thus breaking down the cellulose walls and making them more biologically and nutritionally available for canine consumption.


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## lorih1770

*Good dog foods*



Stella08 said:


> For your experience.. which can food is good? I try w/ Purina, Pedigree, Eukanuba..now Inna evo, I try to change to see what she like.. but I will follow your advice and I will feed her some raw meet.
> 
> thanks for your help.


Learn at least the basics of reading the ingredient labels. Purina, Pedigree, Eukanuba are a few of the absolute worst dog foods. You do not want any corn, any by-products, any checmicals, any gluten, or lots of grains in the food.

Innova Evo is one of the best foods. Other very good foods are Canidae All Stages, Wellness, Eagle Pack Holistic Select. There are others as well. Here's a good source:
www.dogfoodproject.com

Lori


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## RawFedDogs

rannmiller said:


> Yet another subject, dogs do eat the stomach bags of animals that they've killed in the wild, so getting some fruits and veggies into their diet that would normally be found in the stomachs of their prey is a good idea.


Well, we agree on a lot of things but I have to draw the line on this one for a couple of reasons. If you read research on wolves in the wild you will find that yes, wild wolves do eat the stomachs but do not eat the stomach CONTENTS of the prey animals. I have observed this with my own dogs when I feed them whole rabbits. They will carefully remove the stomach, sissor it open with back teeth, shake out the contents, THEN eat the empty stomach. I have personally fed whole rabbits to 4 dogs and this happens every single time. I didn't teach them this, this is the way they each did it from the beginning. At the end of the feeding all that is left is a neat little pile of intestines and stomach contents strewn around.

I have talked to other raw feeders who report the same thing. A few raw feeders say thier dogs eat the whole stomach including contents as well as intestines but most say no about contents.

If they ate the stomach contents of prey animals (most any prey animals), they would not eat fruits and veggies you suggest feeding, rather they would eat grass, weeds, leaves and twigs. No wonder they don't eat that stuff. 

There are no nutrients in plant material that isn't in the meat, bones, and organs of those plant eating animals.


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## rannmiller

I'm just saying, if you feel it absolutely necessary to feed fruits and veggies, that's the only way the dogs can get anything out of it. And obviously it wouldn't be an every day kind of affair either. 

That's very interesting to know about the whole emptying the stomach contents thing though, I didn't know that so thank you for informing me. Of course, my dogs are so _not _picky that I'm sure they'd eat the whole rabbit and not hesitate or even notice if there was anything in the stomach, they just love their food so much. 

I must say I'm glad this site is [mostly] full of people who already feed good food or at least know what constitutes good food. I was afraid I'd be having to beat my head against a wall with all the SD fans out there, but it seems as though they are vastly outnumbered here. Finally.


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## carnivorediet

I am new to this forum and fairly new to raw. I am impressed with raw and will continue to feed and research it. I have researched all my raw ingredients with nutritiondata.com and USDA site because I do want balance. I know the body can compensate for quite some time on unbalanced diets and I dont want to harm them in the long run. I have compared it all with AAFCO and find it impossible to get the right levels of some nutrients without feeding mashed veg matter too. I have spent a ton of time looking it up, converting it to Dry matter figures and comparing. It is my opinion that if you dont feed the whole fresh prey with all the blood too you have to look at other sources - veg. Vitamins C,K, and E are mainly from veg matter. I live on a golf course and watch the coyotes get a rabbit now and again. They devour them. Sometimes you see a leg, but I rarely see anything left. I dont feed bones - I use ground eggshell. I really think the main source in the wild would be blood (for the big carnivores, anyway) not bone. Just my opinion.. not to start a fight. I am not an expert and will never claim to be. I do think raw diets not carefully looked into can be potentially dangerous.
I am just one of those that has to know for sure that I am doing it right and will continue to research and change if I find it necessary. I also supplement with trace minerals because I cant get enough choline, iodine from meat and organs.


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## RawFedDogs

carnivorediet said:


> I am new to this forum and fairly new to raw. I am impressed with raw and will continue to feed and research it.


I don't have a lot of time right now but I will try to answer as many of your concerns as possible.



> I have researched all my raw ingredients with nutritiondata.com and USDA site because I do want balance.


You are way overthinking this. I understand that as I was in the same place you are 7 or 8 years ago. "Balance" is an arbitrary set of numbers with very little if any basis in fact. It is arrived at by nutritionists who must come up with numbers to justify their existance.



> I know the body can compensate for quite some time on unbalanced diets and I dont want to harm them in the long run. I have compared it all with AAFCO and find it impossible to get the right levels of some nutrients without feeding mashed veg matter too.


Before you get too wrapped up in AAFCO's idea of "complete and balanced", you need to know how they arrive at those numbers and what a kibble company has to do to use their "complete and balanced" label.



> I have spent a ton of time looking it up, converting it to Dry matter figures and comparing.


Put your calculator away. This is not rocket science here. It's simple basic nutrition.



> It is my opinion that if you dont feed the whole fresh prey with all the blood too you have to look at other sources - veg. Vitamins C,K, and E are mainly from veg matter.


Well, it's an opinion and you know what they say about opinions. In actual fact dog's don't need Vitamin C at all from dietary sources. They manufacture the Vitamin C they need internally in the exact right amount. There is more than enough Vitamins K and E in raw meat, bones, and organs. My dogs haven't had a veggie or fruit or grain in 6 years. They appear perfectly healthy.



> I live on a golf course and watch the coyotes get a rabbit now and again. They devour them. Sometimes you see a leg, but I rarely see anything left.


Whem I feed whole rabbits to my dogs or if they catch one, they eat all except the intestines and stomach contents. They will sissor open the stomach and shake out the contents before eating the stomach.



> I dont feed bones - I use ground eggshell.


Thats a BIG mistake. Bones are a necessary part of a raw diet. Ground eggshells are not a substitute long term. Bones are just as necessary part of a raw diet as meat.



> I really think the main source in the wild would be blood (for the big carnivores, anyway) not bone.


Where does that information come from?



> I do think raw diets not carefully looked into can be potentially dangerous.


Not nearly as dangerous as kibble. You really have to work to screw up a prey model raw diet.



> I am just one of those that has to know for sure that I am doing it right and will continue to research and change if I find it necessary.


I don't see it as a very complicated thought process to look at the facts and make a decision. 
Dogs are carnivores. Thats a fact. 
Carnivores eat meat, bones, and organs. Another fact.
Carnivores don't eat plant material. Another fact.
Kibble is mostly grains and carbs. Thats still another fact.
Kibble is a highly processed artificial food. Still another fact.
Kibble is made from throw away refuse from human food processing plants. Still another fact.
Kibble is full of chemicals. One more fact

I can't see much of an argument that kibble is anywhere nearly as close to a proper diet for dogs as raw meat, bones, and organs. What did people feed their dogs before kibble came along?



> I also supplement with trace minerals because I cant get enough choline, iodine from meat and organs.


More overthinking. You certainly can. There are too many raw fed healthy dogs who don't take supplements to believe otherwise. Feed a diet of raw meat, bones, and organs and nothing else is necessary. Like I said, it's not rocket science.


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## carnivorediet

Re: calcium in blood.... I know that almost all the calcium in the body is in the bones, but the rest is in the blood. When the CA in blood falls the body takes it from the bones (readings from medical sites like webmd) Anyway I just dont think they eat as much bone as you think (large carnivores eating hooved animals as their main source) I watch shows and they gorge on the kill and seem to fill up on the soft stuff. When the female goes back to regurgitate for the cubs, common sense tells me there is not a lot of bone in it. Maybe there is... I am no expert. I dont want to hurt my large breed pup and want to get the ratio (CAhos) correct and I just dont know how to calculate how much phosphorus is in bone. Over thinking again. I worry about my old dog with kidney issues and high phosphorus. I also worry about lead stored in bones and maybe other toxins. I can buy (or raise) hens in an organic setting and hopefully get shells that are free of toxins?? I do believe raw is much (under statement) better than kibble and I know AAFCO is geared toward the big companies. Thank you for your comments. I may do bone, I just dont know yet. I am female as you probably guessed and tend to overthink. My hubby has the "it should be fine" attitude and it drives my crazy. I think we need the checks and balances of our different ways of thinking


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## RawFedDogs

carnivorediet said:


> Re: calcium in blood.... I know that almost all the calcium in the body is in the bones, but the rest is in the blood. When the CA in blood falls the body takes it from the bones (readings from medical sites like webmd)


Thats an absolute true statement. 



> Anyway I just dont think they eat as much bone as you think (large carnivores eating hooved animals as their main source) I watch shows and they gorge on the kill and seem to fill up on the soft stuff.


That statement is not as true.  My dogs when fed whole carcasses eat everything except the intestnes and stomach contents. The same is true for the other several hundred raw feeders I know. What you say is partially true. My dogs will usually eat the meat first then the bone. I can see in my mind, a carnivore in the wild eating all the soft stuff and some bone, then resting and then eating the bone that is left. He may not do that until the next day. You will also see a wolf on TV in the middle of a feeding frenzy with the rest of the pack, grab a leg of the prey animal and take it off by himself to eat it. Leg has a lot of bone in it.



> When the female goes back to regurgitate for the cubs, common sense tells me there is not a lot of bone in it. Maybe there is... I am no expert.


I don't know if anyone has ever analyzed regurgitated food that mama feeds the pups but I do know of a lot of breeders who ween their pups to raw and start feeding their pups bones at around 4 weeks of age. My own Thor was eating bone in chicken backs, chicken quarters and turkey necks when I got him at 12 weeks old.



> I dont want to hurt my large breed pup and want to get the ratio (CAhos) correct and I just dont know how to calculate how much phosphorus is in bone.


That CAhos ratio MAY be important when feeding an artificial food but feeding meat, bones, and organs, its just not critical. I know a lot of Great Dane owners including myself who have raised puppies on a prey model raw diet without a single one of them having Pano or any of those other amnormalities that giant breed dogs get when feed an improper kibble. I have never known a puppy fed a prey model raw diet having Pano.



> Over thinking again. I worry about my old dog with kidney issues and high phosphorus.


Again, it MAY be a problem with artificial food but not so much so with a raw diet. It's not difficult to learn how to tweak the diet for a kidney troubled dog.



> I also worry about lead stored in bones and maybe other toxins.


You don't worry about the toxins in kibble????



> I may do bone, I just dont know yet.


Dogs have been eating bones for millions of years. Their bodies are equipped for it and it is hard wired into their brains to eat them. Many more dogs have died from eating kibble than from eating bones.



> I am female as you probably guessed and tend to overthink. My hubby has the "it should be fine" attitude and it drives my crazy. I think we need the checks and balances of our different ways of thinking


I'm with hubby. There is nothing really critical in a diet. No percentages or ratios or weights or measures are all that important. Do you analyze your own diet as much as you are your dogs? Dogs bodies are much more adaptable to variations in diet than ours are. Things are less critical to them. 

Meat, bones, and organs from a variety of animals. Mostly meat, some bone, and some organs. There ... a perfectly balanced diet. It has worked for millions of years and was designed by nature. Nature got it right. If there was something wrong with it wolves would have become extinct hundreds of thousands of years ago. 

Don't take a simple task (feeding dogs) and make is unnecessarily complicated. As I said, its not rocket science.


----------



## rannmiller

If you're really worried about bones like I was when I first started feeding raw, start off with a whole chicken (or turkey) drumstick. You can even hold it for your pup if you want so you know it's not devouring the thing whole. When I did this, it amazed me how easily my dogs' teeth just crunched through the hollow bone and gulped it down like it was nothing, then looked at me to ask for another bite. I love feeding raw poultry for this reason! 

Other animals, like lamb, still concern me a bit. Especially since my smallest guy (27 lbs) hacked up about a 3/4 inch chunk of lamb bone the other night. But he's perfectly fine now, I think he just ate it too fast. He's always trying to out-eat my lab-pit mix, which is probably never going to happen, she's a champion eater


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## carnivorediet

RawFedDogs said:


> Do you analyze your own diet as much as you are your dogs?


To a degree... yes, but only because I have celiac disease and have to. I only analyze so much for the dogs is because they are not hunting for themselves and I am not able to give them the option to go out and eat what they can kill. I live in a community and they have to be good citizens. In the wild if they are missing something (nutrient wise) they will go find it. Maybe they need to find a mineral source or feel the need to eat grass or berries once in a while. I am giving them their only food source and I would rather be safe than sorry. I am on your side, I just do it a little differently and add mashed veg matter and do eggshell.


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## RawFedDogs

carnivorediet said:


> I am on your side, I just do it a little differently and add mashed veg matter and do eggshell.


Well, veggies aren't going to hurt them and neither will eggshells. I used to feed my dogs whole eggs, shell and all. I didn't crush the shell, just put it in the bowl. I soon decided that they were getting enough calcium through the bone they were eating and stopped feeding them egg shells. They didn't particularly like them anyway. DON'T leave out whole bones. They are very important for dental health as well as the nutrients they give. 

Talk to you later.


----------



## Guest

*Carnivore vs Omnivores*

Can anyone give me a site (unbiased) that says that dogs are carnivores?

This is contrary to everything I have ever read.

About maybe 20 years ago (I am dating myself) a company came out with an all meat food and dogs started getting sick and it was taken off the market.

I can't think of any respected source in dog nutrition who would say to feed meat only so if someone has a source please let me know.

I do agree that SD is crap and that's nutrition 101 to have to have that explained. Any good web site or the slightest knowledge of ingredients will tell you that.


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## Guest

*Eggs*



I used to feed my dogs whole eggs said:


> Dogs are very handy to have around when you drop an egg on the floor while cooking!


----------



## bellamicuore

zentrainer said:


> Can anyone give me a site (unbiased) that says that dogs are carnivores?
> 
> This is contrary to everything I have ever read.
> 
> About maybe 20 years ago (I am dating myself) a company came out with an all meat food and dogs started getting sick and it was taken off the market.
> 
> I can't think of any respected source in dog nutrition who would say to feed meat only so if someone has a source please let me know.
> 
> I do agree that SD is crap and that's nutrition 101 to have to have that explained. Any good web site or the slightest knowledge of ingredients will tell you that.



Here's an interesting article I found online:
http://www.opednews.com/articles/opedne_john_r_m_070505_are_dogs_carnivores_3f.htm


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## RawFedDogs

zentrainer said:


> Can anyone give me a site (unbiased) that says that dogs are carnivores?
> 
> This is contrary to everything I have ever read.


The only scientific discipline that says dogs are omnivores is the veteranary community which is strongly influenced by the pet food industry. It's necessary for the pet food industry to convince us that dogs are omnivores in order for them to sell us their grain based and almost meatless kibbles.

Biologists, zoologists, other animal scientists all say dogs are carnivores. The Smithsonian Institute says dogs are carnivores.

There are physical charateristics that make an animal a carnivore or omnivore.

1. Carnivores have large mouths as they eat other animals. Omnivores/herbivores have smaller mouths. Dogs have large mouths.

2. Omnivores have flat teeth in the back of their mouths. This is used to crush and mash plant material. All plant material has each cell coated with cellulose. You much mash and crush this shell to extract nutrients from the plant. Humans have these flat teeth. Carnivores don't have flat teeth. They can't get through the cellulose to get to the nutrients. Carnivore teeth are designed to kill prey(front teeth) and to rip and tear meat and crush bones(back teeth). Dogs do not have flat teeth.

3. When omnivores/herbivores chew, they move their lower jaw not only up and down but also sideways in order to crush the cellulose. Carnivores don't have the ability to move their lower jaw from side to side. Only up and down. Dogs do not have the ability to move their lower jaw from side to side.

4. Omnivores/herbivores hae an enzyme called amylaze in their salava and stomach juices. Amylaze is used to digest plant material and digestion begins in the mouth for these animals. Carnivores don't have amylaze in their salava or stomach. They don't make the enzymes necessary for digesting plant material.

5. I don't know how to explain it with words but there is a difference in the way the lower jaw is hinged in omnivores/herbivores and carnivores. Dogs jaws are hinged the same way all other carnivores are hinged.

6. Carnivores have very acidic stomach juices to kill bacteria on meats and to digest bones. Omnivores/herbivores have much less acidic stomach juices. Dog's stomach juices are VERY acidic.

7. Omnivores/herbivores have relatively long intestinal tracts. Carbs must ferment in the gut for a long time during digestion. Carnivores being meat eaters have a very short intestinal tract in order to get the meat through the body quickly before it rots. With thier short intestinal tract they are not able to have carbs in the intestines long enough to digest.

So there you have your biology lesson in a nutshell. There is no arguing the fact that dogs are carnivores. They have all the physical characteristics of a carnivore and none of the omnivores characteristics.



> About maybe 20 years ago (I am dating myself) a company came out with an all meat food and dogs started getting sick and it was taken off the market.
> 
> I can't think of any respected source in dog nutrition who would say to feed meat only so if someone has a source please let me know.


You are right. Meat only is not everything a dog needs. He also need bones and organs. Everything a dog need nutritionly comes from the body of a prey animal. There are no nutrients in any fruit or veggie or grain that is no in the meat, bones, and organs of the prey animals that eat them.

Check out this web page http://rawfed.com/myths/omnivores.html as well as http://rawfed.com/myths/stomachcontents.html 

You also might want to check out the whole list of raw feeding myths on this page http://www.rawfed.com/myths/index.html

So then I turn your question back on you. Forget what others tell you. Use your own powers of logic and reason. What is there physically about a dog that makes you think he is an omnivore?


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## carnivorediet

Dog are listed under the order carnivora. Of course they will eat anything to survive and are omnivorous because they are being fed by humans and have no choice but to be so. If given a choice what would they be. If you look at dingos who are not native to Australia, thought to be brought there by aboriginal people or something to that nature, who have reverted to a wild state are carnivores preferring mammals. They will go to insects or reptiles if needed and probably would go to trash if in dire need. A dingo in a perfect state of health would be one living off of mammals i would bet (in short being a carnivore). I personally dont get why it is that important to have absolute classification.... I feed raw meat but I include veg matter - only because I can not just drop dead prey for them. They probably wouldn't know what to do with it and I sure as heck couldn't kill it (or watch them kill it). So because I cant give the whole carcass to let them pick and chose what parts they want I give veg to fill the spectrum of nutrients (so i hope). The one thing I can say is... my dogs were on a "6 star" kibble food and one was refusing, the others would have gone with it until they died. Going to homemade raw I have seen what i think has been detox. They did not detox on the 6 star food. I have seen noticeable improvement in coat (much softer, still just as shiny), NO gas (gassy on 6 star), and my old dog is friskier and the shake in her rear end is noticeably better. The only thing really different I am doing is much more meat and probably higher quality all the way around. Maybe more meat is the key?? Oh and one more important difference... teeth. I have seen tarter disappearing off my little dog's teeth, who was in need of a dental. They say dental disease causes all sorts of problems with major organs and raw feeding has brought my dogs' digestive systems back to what it should be, highly acidic. I love the fact I may never have to do dentals again. That is so expensive.


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## RawFedDogs

carnivorediet said:


> Dog are listed under the order carnivora. Of course they will eat anything to survive and are omnivorous because they are being fed by humans and have no choice but to be so.


You can't feed a carnivore food meant for an omnivore and create an omnivore. He will still be a carnivore forced to eat inappropriate food.



> They will go to insects or reptiles if needed and probably would go to trash if in dire need.


Even insects and reptiles are meat, bones and organs.



> I personally dont get why it is that important to have absolute classification.... I feed raw meat but I include veg matter - only because I can not just drop dead prey for them.


It's important because it's important to know what the proper food is for an animal. You wouldn't feed meat to a cow or horse or a rabbit. You wouldn't feed plant material to a lion, tiger, wolf or dog.

You will be surprised to learn that you can drop dead prey for your dogs. You can buy whole rabbits, with or without fur, with or without organs intact. There are several places on the internet to buy these. You can pretty easily find goat farmers willing to sell you a goat often already killed and dressed. Whole chickens are probably the easiest whole prey to feed. It's really not that hard if you just put forth a little effort to find them. And, yes, you are right. Often at first sight, they don't know what to do but left alone for an hour or so, they figure it out and next time, they dive right in.

If you have multiple dogs, its interesting to see the different ways they eat whole prey. I have a dog that starts at the head and eats his way to the back. One eats feed and tail first before opening the belly and eating the organs.



> So because I cant give the whole carcass to let them pick and chose what parts they want I give veg to fill the spectrum of nutrients (so i hope).


What you are doing is feeding plant material "just in case". You can't get pass the notion you were taught as a child that you must eat your veggies to be healthy. Many people have problems getting past that. Once you realize that there is not a nutrient in a plant that is not in the body of the prey animals that eat that plant.



> Going to homemade raw I have seen what i think has been detox.


I believe that "detox" is a misnomer and is nonexistant. When people switch their dog to a raw diet, they start watching him very very closely and every negative thing that appears is blamed on this mythical phemenom that they call "detox". Most of them were happening anyway and just weren't noticed or they would have happened whether the diet was changed or not. But this is an argument for another thread.


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## carnivorediet

RawFedDogs said:


> You can't feed a carnivore food meant for an omnivore and create an omnivore. He will still be a carnivore forced to eat inappropriate food.


Ok. But how would you list deer and sheep that has been observed to eat baby birds in the UK. The theory is that when the calcium level in the leaves they eat become too low they will then eat these baby birds that cannot fly yet. They are herbivores but any animal will go to different sources to survive. Animals are amazing in knowing what they are missing and will search for it. I still dont think it is so important to classify as they can and do eat things out of their classification, and if you need to improvise for your pets, such as these deer and sheep, you do so. I still think the smaller carnivores such as fox and jackal eat stomach content regularly because they eat small prey and thus eat plant material. I have seen coyote swallow whole baby rabbit.. couple of chews, but everything went down. I guess what I am trying to say is dogs are listed as carnivores and have carnivore physiology and eat plant material too. Not because they would heavily graze and rely on plants, but because they would ingest it (at least some times) from their prey.


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## RawFedDogs

carnivorediet said:


> Ok. But how would you list deer and sheep that has been observed to eat baby birds in the UK.


I don't know that they have. What sources do you have for that?



> The theory is that when the calcium level in the leaves they eat become too low they will then eat these baby birds that cannot fly yet.


I haven't seen anything about leaves loosing calcium and even if they have been observed eating baby birds, I think the freequency of deer and sheep finding babybirds on the ground would be very rare and certainly not often enough to be even a minor part of their diet or nutritional needs.



> Animals are amazing in knowing what they are missing and will search for it.


I don't give animals any mystical ability to know what they need nutritionally. They eat what is available. If they are carnivores, they eat animals they can catch and kill. Deer are browsers eat a variety of plant products such as leaves, twigs, roots, bark, nuts, sometimes grass. They don't chase down animals and kill them. Their mouths are not equiped for that. Their feed aren't equipped for that.



> I still dont think it is so important to classify as they can and do eat things out of their classification, and if you need to improvise for your pets, such as these deer and sheep, you do so.


That will work for some pets but not others. Try feeding grass to a snake. Try feeding a rat to a rabbit. You can get some carnivores to eat plant material but it is entirely unnecessary and they will be healthier on a proper diet the same as humans.



> I still think the smaller carnivores such as fox and jackal eat stomach content regularly because they eat small prey and thus eat plant material. I have seen coyote swallow whole baby rabbit.. couple of chews, but everything went down.


Foxes adn jackels are not wolves/dogs. Yes, in the wild when a wolf or dog catches a very small animal that they can eat in a couple of crunches, they don't bother removing the stomach. When I feed rabbits to my dogs, they DO remove the stomach, sissor it open with their back teeth, shake out the contents then eat the stomach. Researchers of wild wolves varify that wolves do the same with larger prey. If my dogs were to eat a mouse or rat, I doubt they would take out the stomach.

Let's say for arguments sake that wolves/dogs DID eat stomach contents of prey animals. What would they be eating? Certainly not peas, corn, zuchinni, tomatoes, broccoli or the other veggies people want to feed their dogs. They would be eating partially digeested grass, weeds, leaves, and twigs. Of course they don't eat the stomach contents.



> I guess what I am trying to say is dogs are listed as carnivores and have carnivore physiology and eat plant material too. Not because they would heavily graze and rely on plants, but because they would ingest it (at least some times) from their prey.


I think I have just shown that that doesn't happen. Go back to the myths pages I recommended in a previous post, particularly the one about eating stomach contents at http://rawfed.com/myths/stomachcontents.html


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## carnivorediet

*killer deer*

Regarding deer eating birds - I watch a documentary on it. It was called killer deer or something. It caught my attention and I watched it. You can google it and find articles. There is even something about north american white tails too. Anyway I get what you are saying about it. I know the veggies I use are not a normal grass prey animals would eat. I do use dandelion, however. I just want to use what I have heard to be good cleansing, cancer fighting type of veggies. AHHH... maybe that is why mine detoxed (just messing with you) I figure they need mostly meat (raw), calcium source, and if I can use the goodness of certain veggies I will. After all our pets dont live in near the same environment as their ancestors did or even wild cousins today. Our pets live in polluted cities, on carpets that give off chemicals, etc. So i will use todays knowledge of nutrition and try and implement it.


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## RawFedDogs

carnivorediet said:


> I figure they need mostly meat (raw), calcium source, and if I can use the goodness of certain veggies I will.


Yes, mostly meat, some bone(natural calcium source for carnivores) and some organs.



> After all our pets dont live in near the same environment as their ancestors did or even wild cousins today. Our pets live in polluted cities, on carpets that give off chemicals, etc.


All the more reason to feed a proper diet so they will have strong bodies and a strong immune system to fight all that stuff.



> So i will use todays knowledge of nutrition and try and implement it.


Today's knowledge of nutrition is carnivores eat meat, bones, and organs. Anything else you see is marketing hype by the pet food industry.

It's been fun. Talk to you later.  _<--- this is supposed to be a smiley face._


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## Guest

*The Nutrition Quandry*

So, I grabbed 8 books off the shelf and got mixed answers. Pitcairn says dogs are carnovores. Goldstein says ominvores. Schoen says omnivores, the Aspca says omnivores. One said that, like wolves, dogs prefer meat but will eat veggies. Steven Lindsay quoted a couple of interesting studies on what influences what a dog likes to eat. I didn't see my Roger Abrantes books or my books on wolves.

I think my dog is an omnivore because that is the diet he chooses to eat. He eats vegetables from the garden. He eats certain herbs I grow. He eats raw bones and a raw mixed diet of fish, fruit, veggies and grains.

He's not too big on grains. If I put left over noodles on his food he picks them up and puts them on the floor and then eats his food! He is a smart little guy who I believe knows what he needs instinctively. I have found this to be true of kids also.

I don't think there is one diet that all (people, animals, insects etc.) will thrive on). I think we all have different needs.

I am going to go in the middle on this one. I also find it interesting that people can be so adamant about a dog eating what is natural while they themselves eat things like meat and cows milk. Milk has got to be the most freakish thing I have ever seen a human injest.

No other species drinks milk as adults and very rarely do they drink milk from another species. I find it so odd to see people sit down with a meal and a glass of milk.

Both my acupuncturist and my family doctor were convinced that I needed to eat meat. I kept asking why. Tell me what it will provide and I will find it in a non meat source. They couldn't tell me but finally I caved and ate meat for 8 months. It fixed one problem I was having with my ankles bit caused about 20 others. I felt awful. Now even my family doctor thinks I was not meant to eat meat. She doesn't think that of all her patients, but for me, meat doesn't work.

Works great for my dogs and cats, they thrive. They also like fruits, veggies and some grains and they still thrive. Now, one of my cats can't eat chicken. No problem, we accomodate individuals in my kitchen!


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## LuvsDogs

RawFedDogs said:


> There are physical charateristics that make an animal a carnivore or omnivore.
> 
> 6. Carnivores have very acidic stomach juices to kill bacteria on meats and to digest bones. Omnivores/herbivores have much less acidic stomach juices.
> 
> So there you have your biology lesson in a nutshell. There is no arguing the fact that dogs are carnivores. Dogs have all the physical characteristics of a carnivore and none of the omnivores characteristics. Kinda makes them look like a carnivore, huh?.


This point came to my attention because when my son's dog, 8 y/o in October, was a baby puppy I used to give her chicken necks & lamb brisket bones. Because she was little I mistakenly only gave her one rib bone at a time thinking she would chew it up. She swallowed it whole, made a painful yelp, & that was it. She would also swallow chicken necks the same way. I worried about her doing this at the time, but nothing came out the other end & she didn't seem to have any other problems, apart from the yelp while swallowing it. I can now see what happened to these bones.
At the same time I had my previous Border Collie, April, on the Billinghurst diet. In 1998 I listened to a talk by Billinghurst on the benefits of raw feeding & the dangers of feeding dog food. I bought his 1st 2 books & used to make up the veggie mix with all the additives he suggested, such as brewers yeast, yoghurt, raw egg, flaxseed oil, chicken livers or hearts, vit C & Vit E added before feeding. April didn't like this mix & I always had to add something else to get her to eat it such as sardines, mince, & others. 
When Sooty came along in 2000 I gave her the same diet & she took to it straight away. When she went to the vets for her course of vaccinations he/she told me to put her on to dog kibble because she was too thin & if the RSPCA saw her we would be fined for starving the pup. She just came from thin parents. Of course raw meaty bones made up the bulk of their diets.
I later bought Tom Lonsdale's books & Billinghurst's Barf book.
Over the years I've fed the dogs dog food with bones. In later years April my border became alergic to wheat & couldn't have dog kibble & lived on mostly chicken bones with the occasional lamb brisket & lamb necks. At one time the vet wanted to clean & scale her teeth but after living on bones for a year, the next time I took her they said her teeth were good for her age.


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## Stella08

*Thanks*



lorih1770 said:


> Learn at least the basics of reading the ingredient labels. Purina, Pedigree, Eukanuba are a few of the absolute worst dog foods. You do not want any corn, any by-products, any checmicals, any gluten, or lots of grains in the food.
> 
> Innova Evo is one of the best foods. Other very good foods are Canidae All Stages, Wellness, Eagle Pack Holistic Select. There are others as well. Here's a good source:
> www.dogfoodproject.com
> 
> Lori


Thanks Lori for your information


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## Stella08

*Organic food*

My question: is the organic food good for my chihuahua??, I get the brand name "Animal Party" is a organic food, she like it, I was given Evo, Innova (she don't like it) and Purina.. Because didn't have the Evo she give me "Animal Party and Wellness.. but Wellness didn't like it..
What I found is my dog is getting biger I dont' know if is the food or what.. I don't give it to her a row food because she didn't like it and get diarrhea right away..
Thanks for your advice.


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## BoxerMommie

Stella08 said:


> My question: is the organic food good for my chihuahua??, I get the brand name "Animal Party" is a organic food, she like it, I was given Evo, Innova (she don't like it) and Purina.. Because didn't have the Evo she give me "Animal Party and Wellness.. but Wellness didn't like it..
> What I found is my dog is getting biger I dont' know if is the food or what.. I don't give it to her a row food because she didn't like it and get diarrhea right away..
> Thanks for your advice.


Doesn't look like that food is a bad food at all, but anything can be good or bad for a dog depending on how their body respnds to it. If she's getting a bit plump feed her less it's really that simple. It also sounds like your dog has YOU trained. IMO picky dogs are created not born that way. Choose 2-3 foods that you can afford that is healthy ingredient wise and rotate between those every few months. I promise, your dog will eventually eat once you stop giving in. So choose a few that are in your area that you can afford and when you make switches make sure you switch over gradually. But like I said on the getting porkie, either increase her exercise amount to burn more calories or decrease the amount you feed her to cut back on calories.


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## Stella08

Your are right she is picky because of me  is my fault.
I try to satisfy her.. so that's why I try differents brand names of food.. also I don't want she get bored because she don't eat dry food at all.. when I mix the dry food w/ can food she pick up only the food she like it and the dry food she put it on the floor.
Thanks so much for your advice!!


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## BoxerMommie

Stella08 said:


> Your are right she is picky because of me  is my fault.
> I try to satisfy her.. so that's why I try differents brand names of food.. also I don't want she get bored because she don't eat dry food at all.. when I mix the dry food w/ can food she pick up only the food she like it and the dry food she put it on the floor.
> Thanks so much for your advice!!


Switching 3-4 times a year is fine and actually healthy, but to have a dog that you admit "doesn't like" or "won't eat" multiple brands of food typically means you're trained. 1 or 2 foods that a dog doesn't like is understandable, multiple foods is rediculous (again JMO). Which is why I said pick 2-3 different foods that are in your price range and available in your area that are nutritious and switch between them 3-4 times a year. Switching too often is not healthy though and can cause stomach upset, gas, diarrhea, vomiting, among other problems so keep that in mind as well.


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## Stella08

BoxerMommie said:


> Switching 3-4 times a year is fine and actually healthy, but to have a dog that you admit "doesn't like" or "won't eat" multiple brands of food typically means you're trained. 1 or 2 foods that a dog doesn't like is understandable, multiple foods is rediculous (again JMO). Which is why I said pick 2-3 different foods that are in your price range and available in your area that are nutritious and switch between them 3-4 times a year. Switching too often is not healthy though and can cause stomach upset, gas, diarrhea, vomiting, among other problems so keep that in mind as well.


Thanks so much for your help, I really appreciate.. I am lost in how to feed my dog and want a healthy dog and I am afraid to give her a kind of food bad, here in this site people said Purina, Pedigree, Eukanuba, etc are bad food w/ quimical process so tha't why I am very concern in what to give her.
Thanks again!!


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## BoxerMommie

Stella08 said:


> Thanks so much for your help, I really appreciate.. I am lost in how to feed my dog and want a healthy dog and I am afraid to give her a kind of food bad, here in this site people said Purina, Pedigree, Eukanuba, etc are bad food w/ quimical process so tha't why I am very concern in what to give her.
> Thanks again!!


A good site to help you find a food is www.dogfoodanalysis.com I disagree with some of their opinions but as a guideline it can be helpful. You want to be feeding at least a 4 star food, so that may give you some extra options also.

Good luck.


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## Stella08

Thanks so much that site is really good!!


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## rannmiller

Yeah it helps break it down and demystify the ingredients a little bit. Did you choose one or two yet?


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## Stella08

I choose for Evo, Party Animal (organic food) and wellness.


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## rannmiller

I've never heard of Party Animal but the other two are great so I'm sure it's good too.


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## Stella08

Party Animal is organic food,check out in internet is really good, Stella like it..


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## Stella08

*Question-Please advice*

Hello, I am here again. Stella start to itching often, I put it frontline for 2nd time, she is good without flea, she has not more flea, but still itching.. could be something else?? maybe another kind of flea and I can't see it?? or maybe a kind of paresites on her skin?? she got the complete medicine for the worm..


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## BoxerMommie

Stella08 said:


> Hello, I am here again. Stella start to itching often, I put it frontline for 2nd time, she is good without flea, she has not more flea, but still itching.. could be something else?? maybe another kind of flea and I can't see it?? or maybe a kind of paresites on her skin?? she got the complete medicine for the worm..


Itching where? She could have an allergy to something in her food. My dog would chew his feet like nuts until I figured out he had an allergy to gluten (wheat, barley, oats, etc). Could be a food allergy, could be an allergy to grass or another plant in your yard, could be an allergy to the detergent you use to wash things. You may wish to consider doing an allergy test so you know what it is unless you have a pretty good guess.


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## Stella08

Thanks for your help! She is eating Evo and Party Animal, her itching is anywhere on her body.. She is living w/ me for 3 months but this happen since last month so that's means is something new.. I can't figure out what.. but you are right I should do a allegy test.Thanks again!!


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## BoxerMommie

Stella08 said:


> Thanks for your help! She is eating Evo and Party Animal, her itching is anywhere on her body.. She is living w/ me for 3 months but this happen since last month so that's means is something new.. I can't figure out what.. but you are right I should do a allegy test.Thanks again!!


Unfortunately no it doesn't mean it's something new, many dogs develope allergies over time. Seems like you also changed her food right? Could she be allergic to the chicken or beef in the food, another ingredient? Just because it's a good food doesn't mean she can't be allergic to something in it. But as I said allergies CAN just pop up one day as an over time thing so it doesn't have to be anything new. Or it could be, someone next door could have planted something she allergic to, a weed or something could have been blown into your yard, really there are a whole SLEW of possibilities.


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## Stella08

BoxerMommie said:


> Unfortunately no it doesn't mean it's something new, many dogs develope allergies over time. Seems like you also changed her food right? Could she be allergic to the chicken or beef in the food, another ingredient? Just because it's a good food doesn't mean she can't be allergic to something in it. But as I said allergies CAN just pop up one day as an over time thing so it doesn't have to be anything new. Or it could be, someone next door could have planted something she allergic to, a weed or something could have been blown into your yard, really there are a whole SLEW of possibilities.


Thanks again for your help maybe you right is not new.. in the begining she didn't itching and she was eating purina and pedrigree.. I dont have yard, my patio is small, but when I take her to walk could be the yard in my block but if so.. I don't know what to do.. because is where she does poo and pii..  probably I will stop to feed her w/ this food till take her to the vet.. and just give her dry food, she doesn't like it but I dont' know what to do..


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## BoxerMommie

Stella08 said:


> Thanks again for your help maybe you right is not new.. in the begining she didn't itching and she was eating purina and pedrigree.. I dont have yard, my patio is small, but when I take her to walk could be the yard in my block but if so.. I don't know what to do.. because is where she does poo and pii..  probably I will stop to feed her w/ this food till take her to the vet.. and just give her dry food, she doesn't like it but I dont' know what to do..



You could try just plain chicken and rice and see if it goes away, if it does it was an allergy to the food, if not it could still be a chicken or grain allergy but it weeds something out. If it's an allergy to something outside there's medications for that. No sense in switching to dry food, there are a TON of allergens in that too especially since you don't know what it is. I would just leave things the way they are and take her to the vet soon. You could try a grain free food that has a different ingredient panel than the Evo, you can also give some fish oil which may help and then get her into the vet ASAP.


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## Stella08

Thanks so much for all your advice..I start to watch her and read all the stuff I give it, I will try the chicken and rice.. and which food you recomeend grain free?? and fish oil?? Actually I am given in the food a oil for her coat and skin.

Thanks again I will follow your instruction for sure.. and Also I will take care her to the vet.


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## BoxerMommie

Stella08 said:


> Thanks so much for all your advice..I start to watch her and read all the stuff I give it, I will try the chicken and rice.. and which food you recomeend grain free?? and fish oil?? Actually I am given in the food a oil for her coat and skin.
> 
> Thanks again I will follow your instruction for sure.. and Also I will take care her to the vet.



Wellness is a good grain free Wellness Core, they have a Ocean version too if chicken or other poultries are a problem.

And on the oil in her food i'm not sure what you are saying there. Do you ADD an oil to her food? If so which one? Or do you buy a food with oils in it? If so there isn't enough in it to make a difference it's just a marketing gimmick. You can get human fish oil at the store and give a capsule or 2 daily depending on her weight.


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## Stella08

Yes is a oil to put in to her food.. I bought it in petsmart.
You mean I can buy human fish oil and give a capsule in to the food or how ?? 
Thanks


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## Stella08

*Please Help*

Please Help.. my chihuahua Stella start to poo my couch for few times.. she didn't before.. could be because I fix her 2 weeks ago?? She sleep w/ me everynight at my bed.. I leave her free when I come to work.. but since yestarday I decide to leave her at the kitchen w/ the gate because she don't want to poo where she usually do it.. she start to poo my sofa, likely I allways leave the sofas cover w/ sheets, she looks like angry w/ me I dont' know what to do, how to change her, I don't like to leave her at the kitchen..:frown:


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