# Urgent: Stomach Problems!



## meggels (May 30, 2010)

Hi everyone!

Murph has been having diarrhea (not soft serve, pretty much liquid, not at all formed poo's) since Saturday. 

I fasted him for 24 hours and then began with a chicken & white rice diet on Sunday evening. 

He did not poop at all from Monday morning until last night at like 9pm. It seemed to be a pretty decent poop. Not perfectly formed, but definitely an improvement from what he was having before, so I was relieved and thought we were on the mend. He's also been getting pedialyte mixed in with his water since yesterday morning to prevent dehydration. 

So now that we are back to square one with AWFUL poo's this morning, I am going to try to either do chicken & pumpkin or chicken & potato (two different recommendations from two different groups of people lol). I also want to pick up some slippery elm bark. 

I found a health food store that has it in a tincture form for $12. Would this be okay? 

I also found it at another store and they sell the actual bark (?) and the powder in bulk, at $27.99 per pound. 

I'm a bit confused on what form I'm supposed to be giving him, and how much. Any ideas?


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## shellbell (Sep 24, 2011)

I would take a stool sample in to the vet to rule out any type of parasite. And I think I would stick with chicken and rice, and not use pumpkin or potato. Rice will be gentler, and pumpkin can sometimes cause issues, especially if you are giving too much. 

And agree with the slippery elm, I don't know much about it but hopefully others can chime in with what kind/how much.


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## meggels (May 30, 2010)

shellbell said:


> I would take a stool sample in to the vet to rule out any type of parasite. And I think I would stick with chicken and rice, and not use pumpkin or potato. Rice will be gentler, and pumpkin can sometimes cause issues, especially if you are giving too much.
> 
> And agree with the slippery elm, I don't know much about it but hopefully others can chime in with what kind/how much.



Forgot to mention! Brought in his stool on Saturday and it's negative for any parasites.

I would stick with the rice, but he won't eat it! He picks the chicken out.


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## naturalfeddogs (Jan 6, 2011)

I would just do the chicken then. That's still real bland. Hope it helps!


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## BearMurphy (Feb 29, 2012)

meggels said:


> Forgot to mention! Brought in his stool on Saturday and it's negative for any parasites.
> 
> I would stick with the rice, but he won't eat it! He picks the chicken out.


that's probably because he's raw fed! i wouldn't do chicken and rice if my dog had the runs I would do homemade broth and if I weren't fasting some skinless bone in chicken. I know you do grinds for murph so do you have any chicken ones? I would use that and slippery elm if you are comfortable with that but I've never used it


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## RawPitbulls (Feb 7, 2013)

Just do the chicken. And try to never give him rice in his life again.


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## meggels (May 30, 2010)

BearMurphy said:


> that's probably because he's raw fed! i wouldn't do chicken and rice if my dog had the runs I would do homemade broth and if I weren't fasting some skinless bone in chicken. I know you do grinds for murph so do you have any chicken ones? I would use that and slippery elm if you are comfortable with that but I've never used it


I don't have any, but I could get some. I also have some turkey ones leftover. 

Oy. So much conflicting information. Makes my head hurt lol  Even my friend who raw feeds, told me to do the chicken & rice. He also told me to NOT give any pumpkin, but so many people have said yes to the pumpkin.


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## naturalfeddogs (Jan 6, 2011)

I have tried pumpkin in the past( pre raw feeding), and it didn't work. Since raw feeding, chicken has always worked for me. That's just been the experience I have had with it.


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## whiteleo (Sep 7, 2008)

Could be the grinds are not agreeing with him. How long have you had them? Anything that is ground always has the potential to have some different bacteria's and over time it can triple.


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## meggels (May 30, 2010)

He's on Northwest Naturals nuggets. He's been on them for awhile and it's the raw he does best with.

Nuggets


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## meggels (May 30, 2010)

Also just reiterating the most important question...anyone have any idea what form I should be getting the slippery elm bark in lol?


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## whiteleo (Sep 7, 2008)

*Slippery elm*

Slippery elmHere is the dosage


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## meggels (May 30, 2010)

Awesome, thanks Robin. I'm going to call the store back and see if they had capsules. I do think they both mentioned them, just need to double check. And then Murph would just need 2 capsules or so...


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## monster'sdad (Jul 29, 2012)

Slippery Elm is another myth. Does the dog have any fever?


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## meggels (May 30, 2010)

I don't know. I couldn't get the thermometer in him yesterday because he kept freaking out.


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## whiteleo (Sep 7, 2008)

monster'sdad said:


> Slippery Elm is another myth. Does the dog have any fever?


Who says, ask all the people who use and I think they'll will attest to the fact it works


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## monster'sdad (Jul 29, 2012)

Well put some vaseline on the thermometer and check :becky: 

If the dogs seems ok, is drinking and has no fever, I wouldn't worry too much.

If he has fever, bring him to the Dr. He may have gotten some bacteria from the raw food.


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## meggels (May 30, 2010)

I did put vaseline on it :-X He would squeal like a pig and freak out. 

He seems fine. He's drinking water with pedialyte in it. Chews on bones. WANTS to eat...it just doesn't look pretty when it comes out of his butt.


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## Liz (Sep 27, 2010)

Meggels - slippery elm is not called for in this instance. Not because it is ineffective, it is not a myth, except in the small minds of those who sing the same mantra continually ad nauseam but because you don't know what your dog has. Something is obviously wrong. Giardia/coccidia and some worms are not caught when first tested. I would take in another fecal and see if anything can be found. Not being a fan of premade raw or feeding ground for the majority of the diet I hesitate to blame the food but ground has many surfaces for bacteria to multiply on. While I may treat with different modalities I would get more testing to know exactly what I needed to treat. Throwing "holistic" treatments at a dog without knowledge of what you are treating is irresponsible and can be range from ineffective to harmful. The right treatment for the problem is critical in allopathic medicine as well as natural treatment. Please don't throw slippery elm at Murph without knowing what is wrong. Slippery Elm for extended periods of time can cause malabsorption of nutrients.


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## meggels (May 30, 2010)

Oh, I didn't realize that. It seems like that's one of the first things people recommend on here when there is diarrhea. 

My friend who is big into natural medicine said he thinks it is a lower GI infection. 

I just don't know why this appeared out of nowhere. This *has* happened before though, I will say. Unfortunately it's not the first time where he has had stomach issues for a week or so at a time with no real explanation.

I'm actually bringing Abbie in to the vet tonight because she is having an issue with her eye, it seems irritated since last night. So I will bring a sample for Murph again. Hopefully I can get one before we go to the vet tonight.

Oy.

Liz, what would you suggest for treatment then?


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## Liz (Sep 27, 2010)

There in is your problem. Does he have a mild upset? Slippery Elm for a couple to three days and bland, skinless chicken would probably take care of it. An intestinal bug calls for different homepathics to treat the bug/bacteria/virus. In the case of a bug slippery elm just coats the gut without treating the problem and when he is off it the problem will come back. If he has IBS that would be treated with a different protocol. 

Personally I would take his temp and then do another fecal. If temp is normal and fecal is clear then you might do three days of skinless, bony chicken and slippery elm. Otherwise, you will continue to have issues.


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## monster'sdad (Jul 29, 2012)

If the dog is free of fever, is active, is drinking, then nothing is called for. There is nothing more natural than letting it run its course. Repeat, there is nothing more natural than what his body is doing, ie. expelling the pathogens. 

I suspect he has a minor viral or bacterial bug.

Just watch him and relax. If you get a sense he is feeling and looking blue, seek a *professional's* opinion.


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## meggels (May 30, 2010)

I would say that whatever came out of him this morning was not mild LOL. It was pretty disgusting. And on Sat/Sun there was some blood like his colon was aggravated.


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## monster'sdad (Jul 29, 2012)

meggels said:


> I would say that whatever came out of him this morning was not mild LOL. It was pretty disgusting. And on Sat/Sun there was some blood like his colon was aggravated.


Ok then off to the Vet. You didn't say blood before, or I didn't see it.


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## meggels (May 30, 2010)

monster'sdad said:


> If the dog is free of fever, is active, is drinking, then nothing is called for. There is nothing more natural than letting it run its course. Repeat, there is nothing more natural than what his body is doing, ie. expelling the pathogens.
> 
> I suspect he has a minor viral or bacterial bug.
> 
> Just watch him and relax. If you get a sense he is feeling and looking blue, seek a *professional's* opinion.


He's not active...but he's never active lol. He's the laziest frenchie that ever lived! I always get tripped up on "is he lethargic" question because...well...yes, he's lethargic by nature lol 

But he came into work with me yesterday and was QUITE excited to see everyone in the office. Hopping around and shaking his butt. And he is VERY interested in eating. He's drinking like normal. Chewing on his nylabones. Snuggling in bed with me. He just freaks me out when I watch him poop lol. I will try to get his temp when I get home tonight...


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## meggels (May 30, 2010)

monster'sdad said:


> Ok then off to the Vet. You didn't say blood before, or I didn't see it.


I didn't mention it. I didn't notice it today when I was wiping his butt, but then again...what he expelled today was pretty much pudding, so it's hard to tell...


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## Liz (Sep 27, 2010)

Meggels, after the fecal and taking his temp send me a PM and I will let you know what I personally would do and you can decide from there what direction you want to take. I really don't give counsel without a diagnosis it does make a difference. I have no vested interest in how people choose to treat their dogs so if you choose to go with what I suggest great and if you choose to go with your veterinary treatment great. Just make sure you pick one way or another as natural treatment should not be mixed with traditional without a lot of checking into any contraindications. If you choose to go more natural I will watch for your PM and if not I hope your vet finds what is causing Murph to be off a bit. 

Personally a dog having explosive watery diarrhea is a cause for concern. While I would not be frantic I would test for the source of the issue and try to assist his body with natural supports to clear and cleanse itself of whatever is affecting him.  

I am appalled that a lay person would be trying to diagnose your dog on line and contradicting your instinct as the owner as to whether your dog needs care or not. That is very irresponsible. 

Take care and PM if you would like more info.


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## monster'sdad (Jul 29, 2012)

Liz said:


> Meggels, after the fecal and taking his temp send me a PM and I will let you know what I personally would do and you can decide from there what direction you want to take. I really don't give counsel without a diagnosis it does make a difference. I have no vested interest in how people choose to treat their dogs so if you choose to go with what I suggest great and if you choose to go with your veterinary treatment great. Just make sure you pick one way or another as natural treatment should not be mixed with traditional without a lot of checking into any contraindications. If you choose to go more natural I will watch for your PM and if not I hope your vet finds what is causing Murph to be off a bit.
> 
> Personally a dog having explosive watery diarrhea is a cause for concern. While I would not be frantic I would test for the source of the issue and try to assist his body with natural supports to clear and cleanse itself of whatever is affecting him.
> 
> ...


LOLOLO, what a joke. You just asked her to PM you for advice. You have the most amazingly unrealistic view of yourself. Blood in the stool whether it was today or Sunday is something for the vet to look at, just as I said above.

You and the other one, the one that said Lepto was nothing to worry about, should both be banned for playing Vet on-line.


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## meggels (May 30, 2010)

Thanks Liz. I'm just...very confused at the moment about whether he does need care or not. I mean, I certainly don't want to NOT give him care if he is indeed in need of it...but I also don't want to bring him to the vet if he *doesn't* need it, esp since he was just there on President's Day because I woke up at 5am and he was unable to walk (he had worked out of whatever it was by 9am when we left for the vet appointment and has been fine since then, vet thinks he might have just pulled something climbing snowbanks), but that cost $265. And Abbie is going tonight as I mentioned because her eye is bothering her....oy. I'm someone who tends to get worried over any little thing with my dogs, so sometimes I question myself if I'm bringing them to the vet cause it's truly needed, or if I am just too worried naturally...



*end emotional rant*


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## jaber6 (Feb 21, 2013)

Best of luck in your situation. This morning, our Westie had diarrhea with spots of fresh blood. Last time we saw blood with diarrhea, was when he was going through his Giardia/Coccidia treatment. He had it at 9 1/2 weeks old and after 2 fecal tests, Coccidia is gone. But on the last test, Giardia antigen was present, but nothing "live" and supposedly might just be a carrier, can't recall exactly how the vet explained it. Interesting how today he's schedule for another fecal and we encounter blood in his stool. To play it safe, we explained the situation to the vet and they're not too concerned right now, as he's very energetic and eating/drinking. I was going to create a thread about this too lol.. but got too busy at work.


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## Liz (Sep 27, 2010)

First of all I stated "Meggels, after the fecal and taking his temp send me a PM and I will let you know what I personally would do and you can decide from there what direction you want to take." I told her she should go to her vet and offered to let her know what I would do which is what was asked. 

You, on the other hand offered your far from professional diagnosis sight unseen without sufficient information "I suspect he has a minor viral or bacterial bug." You have also expounded your obviously limited medical wisdom in this statement "If the dog is free of fever, is active, is drinking, then nothing is called for. There is nothing more natural than letting it run its course. Repeat, there is nothing more natural than what his body is doing, ie. expelling the pathogens." 

So please keep laughing while I refrain diagnosing her dog sight unseen and refer her to her vet for diagnosis and offer her the support she requested. I appreciate your nasty and vitriolic temper as it reminds me how little I want to be like you, thank you. 

Finally, no one said lepto was not a problem but it is not a death sentence and there are many treatment modalities available. This is something that needs to be understood whether the vaccine is given or not as some of the vaccines only protects against two strains or serovars and others protect only against four leaving your dog open to the many other strains of Lepto in the enviornment. If Lepto was an issue in my area I would like to have a treatment plan available whether I vaccinated or not. 

As far a banning - what are you so afraid of? If holistics bother you stay out of the page? Raw bothers you? Don't go to the raw page. I know I avoid your nonsense postings in the kibble section like the plague. Though I do read and keep much of the info especially from DaViking in case I have someone wanting reasonable information on a processed diet.


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## meggels (May 30, 2010)

Well, Murph is gonna come along for the vet appointment tonight. Better safe than sorry, and I have a feeling if I don't get some peace of mind from a vet, I will be up worrying all night about it...

Liz, I know you said that holistic and conventional medicine should not be mixed, but I would definitely be open to hearing your insight once I get back from the vet tonight, if you are willing to share it if we get a "diagnosis".


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## Liz (Sep 27, 2010)

I sent you a message Meggels. Please read.


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## DaViking (Sep 27, 2011)

Go to the vet, holistic or other alternative vet is fine as long as she/he cares and run all necessary tests to get to the bottom of this. Then you have a starting point for a treatment and the various advice you get will make more or less sense.


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## meggels (May 30, 2010)

Yup, he's going tonight with Abigail. And they told me to bring a stool sample.

They should be able to get his temp too, it's hard to hold one squealing frenchie down on your own :-X


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## Sprocket (Oct 4, 2011)

Don't feed the troll.....

Good luck with Murphy Meg! It shouldn't be too difficult to hold him while you take his temp. Wrap your arm around his waist and lift his back end up so he can't run away. He might squeal but its best to get it done no matter what he does.


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## monster'sdad (Jul 29, 2012)

Liz said:


> First of all I stated "Meggels, after the fecal and taking his temp send me a PM and I will let you know what I personally would do and you can decide from there what direction you want to take." I told her she should go to her vet and offered to let her know what I would do which is what was asked.
> 
> You, on the other hand offered your far from professional diagnosis sight unseen without sufficient information "I suspect he has a minor viral or bacterial bug." You have also expounded your obviously limited medical wisdom in this statement "If the dog is free of fever, is active, is drinking, then nothing is called for. There is nothing more natural than letting it run its course. Repeat, there is nothing more natural than what his body is doing, ie. expelling the pathogens."
> 
> ...


Laughable, your buddy from Alabama stated Lepto was nothing to worry about. Why don't you check. 

As for your herbs and berries, you should keep that nonsense to yourself because one day some dog is going to die listening to that nonsense.

Keep in mind why all that stuff is called "alternative", because is doesn't work.


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## monster'sdad (Jul 29, 2012)

meggels said:


> Well, Murph is gonna come along for the vet appointment tonight. Better safe than sorry, and I have a feeling if I don't get some peace of mind from a vet, I will be up worrying all night about it...
> 
> Liz, I know you said that holistic and conventional medicine should not be mixed, but I would definitely be open to hearing your insight once I get back from the vet tonight, if you are willing to share it if we get a "diagnosis".


Avoid Holistic Vets. Holisitic Vets are good for things that go away on their own, LOL. Invariably what happens is that they refer you when it is something requiring real treatment, the honest ones anyway.


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## MollyWoppy (Mar 19, 2010)

monster'sdad said:


> As for your herbs and berries, you should keep that nonsense to yourself because one day some dog is going to die listening to that nonsense.


Do you recall not so long ago telling someone that their old dog, who had suddenly started refusing food, was simply being fussy? So that person listened to you and held off feeding his old dog for a day or two. Only to discover that the old dog, who had never previously refused food in his life was suffering from cancer? Which made the owner, who lives for that dog, almost beside himself with guilt. 
It's a bit like the pot calling the kettle black huh?


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## meggels (May 30, 2010)

monster'sdad said:


> Avoid Holistic Vets. Holisitic Vets are good for things that go away on their own, LOL. Invariably what happens is that they refer you when it is something requiring real treatment, the honest ones anyway.


Okay, I need to step in now. I understand that you don't believe in holistic treatment, but *I* personally do, and I am more than happy for people to share their experiences. I don't think it's fair for others to have their beliefs belittled just because you don't believe in it, and I ask that at least in MY thread, we can just stop this bickering. I'm open to ALL input, whether it's traditional or holistic.


On that note, the vets I use aren't really holistic vets. They are more so traditional vets with a dab of holistic, and they support raw feeding. 

Anyways, now that i'm home and settled in...both kids are fine, no major issues.

Abbie just has a small eye infection. She has ointment now for it. 

Murph, they were not sure *why* he is getting this diarrhea, but he gave him a shot to slow it down, and also flagyl to take. He said to fast him for 24 hours (poor guy...) and then start tomorrow night with rice & chicken broth, and then on Friday night, rice, chicken broth and pieces of chicken and see how it goes from there.

Both dogs were so good, he said several time that they are such good dogs. Even scaredy cat Abbie sat like a patient good hound while he fiddled with her eyeballs. *Beams with pride*. Must be what it feels like for a parent when their human child gets a good report card lol


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## MollyWoppy (Mar 19, 2010)

Thats good Meg. Especially good about Abbey's eye, I found out the hard way you need to be careful with eyes. 
Hopefully Murph will be back to normal soon. I was thinking this afternoon, you haven't had any bug control or yard fertiliser done lately have you? I have to be very careful with Mol keeping off recently fertilised or pest controlled lawns or she will get chronic diarrhea for a few days afterwards.


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## meggels (May 30, 2010)

I doubt it, since we still have snow on a good portion of our lawns LOL!


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## MollyWoppy (Mar 19, 2010)

Oh. :redface:


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## meggels (May 30, 2010)

Silly Floridian :-D


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## meggels (May 30, 2010)

Just got a call that Murph's stool sample is negative for anything, so I'm guessing that it's definitely not a parasite causing this if both samples have been negative...


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## monster'sdad (Jul 29, 2012)

Whipworms have been known to be missed, even after two fecals.


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