# i feel like raw is a contradiction



## RCTRIPLEFRESH5 (Feb 11, 2010)

see all these threads on killing ducks, or other animals all for the betterment of our animals. I mean where does it become too much? Isn't killing one animal for another kind of defeating the purpose of being an animal lover?


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## Caty M (Aug 13, 2010)

I hope you feed a vegetarian kibble, then, RC. Otherwise you are killing those poor poor animals for the betterment of your dog.


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## Caty M (Aug 13, 2010)

I am an animal lover. I am not an animal rights activist. I believe in the most humane treatment possible prior to killing.. but I am not against it. Do you eat meat?


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

well said, caty, but RC....don't get any ideas about going vegetarian on your dog...

animals have to die,

they are part of the food chain.

sad but true.


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## Tobi (Mar 18, 2011)

RCTRIPLEFRESH5 said:


> see all these threads on killing ducks, or other animals all for the betterment of our animals. I mean where does it become too much? Isn't killing one animal for another kind of defeating the purpose of being an animal lover?


Loving animals doesn't mean that you can't kill them. I love rabbits i think they are adorable, but will i break ones neck so that my dog can eat a proper meal? SURE...

I have the utmost respect for any animal that dies for another to live. I went to see cows being slaughtered for human grade food and for offal for my dog, I thought they were beautiful and it made me sad that they had to die, but at the same time there is a food chain. Defeating the purpose of being an animal lover would be killing animals for no reason, or wasting them completely.


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## Slayer Girl (Sep 8, 2011)

To truly LOVE anything..you need to accept it. You need to accept its nature and its history. A true animal lover will realize that dogs need meat to survive. It is what they are built to digest. Anyone who calls themselves an animal lover is lying if they can't even accept that some are carnivores. Since the beginning of time animals have been killing other animals for the betterment of their species.


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## cprcheetah (Jul 14, 2010)

It's the circle of life, food chain whatever you want to call it. And as others have said UNLESS you are feeding a Vegetarian kibble guess what? You too are 'killing' animals to feed to others.


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## Scarlett_O' (May 19, 2011)

As everyone else said, its a circle of life, food chain, etc...


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## DeekenDog (Aug 29, 2011)

To be honest, I think those here that are killing ducks or other animals probably take greater care to ensure a quick and pain-free end for the animals they slaugter than that experienced by the animals providing meat for kibble and the grocery stores. To me, part of loving something is about accepting its true nature. Dogs are carnivores, they are meant to eat other animals. Forcing a dog to be a vegetarian (which would be the only option if you aren't feeding other animals) is denying their very nature.


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## rannmiller (Jun 27, 2008)

I agree with everyone else. Heck I'm even a vegetarian and I feed my dogs raw! I believe in feeding species appropriately. My dogs are carnivores and will be fed as such (no I'm not interested in the slightest about arguing that humans need to eat meat so don't even try or bother please). And as everyone else pointed out, there are animals being killed for your dog's kibble, at least I know the quality and freshness of the quality of meat being fed to my dogs and I know they aren't getting any species-inappropriate ingredients like potatoes, pea protein, fruits, veggies, grains, menadione sodium bisulfite, etc. You come on here with the myriad of problems that Winston has and you're willing to literally try everything under the sun to try to help him except change him to a species appropriate diet that may very well actually solve most if not all of his issues. You say you don't want to give him antibiotics, flea medication, and other unnatural medications and treatments, but you'll feed him over-processed cereal as his only source of nutrition. You say you want to help him and you're willing to try all sorts of other treatments and home remedies, but you absolutely refuse to listen to people who have experienced first hand how raw can benefit the same problems you're dealing with with your own dog. Then you get all defensive about how you have no interest in feeding raw or even looking into it. Then you have the audacity to come onto our section (thank you for posting this in the raw section so I can say all of this actually) and tell us that our way of feeding is somehow cruel or an oxymoron when you are intentionally keeping your dog riddled with medical issues and miserable because you refused to look into an alternative way of feeding that may help him because you're too stubborn to listen to a word we have to say. You sir, are the one who is being a hypocrite, not us.


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## JayJayisme (Aug 2, 2009)

RC, you need to watch some nature shows on TV so you better understand the natural order of things. You cannot feed a carnivore properly without something else dying. The real issue, as others have suggested, is the humane treatment of all animals, even ones used to feed others. There is plenty of cruelty toward all kinds of animals out there, including everything from pets to beef cattle. There is a movement happening though in the agricultural industry to improve "animal husbandry". More farmers and ranchers are becoming aware of it, especially those who produce premium products. Animals raised or slaughtered in stressful conditions usually produce inferior meat. The economics of proper animal rearing is starting to sink in. This is another case for buying pastured and grass fed meat, which usually comes from ranchers who practice humane animal husbandry. 

At the end of the day, we're all part of the food chain and you can't feed a dog tofu.


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## kennyk (Sep 17, 2011)

I LOVE FARM ANIMALS! I went to a OC County Fair last month and OMG those animals are so adorable with some stink mixed in but when it's on my plate for dinner I'd eat em up quick 

BUT I would never be able to slaughter my own animals for any reason... I get too attached to things and if I did have a farm, I'd be going bankrupt lol


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## luvMyBRT (Mar 8, 2010)

RCTRIPLEFRESH5 said:


> see all these threads on killing ducks, or other animals all for the betterment of our animals. I mean where does it become too much? Isn't killing one animal for another kind of defeating the purpose of being an animal lover?


This is a joke, right??!! LOL! Good one, RC!
:twitch::twitch::twitch:


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## sozzle (May 18, 2011)

JayJayisme said:


> RC, you need to watch some nature shows on TV so you better understand the natural order of things.


Yes I was just about to say all those wildlife documentaries showing carnivores taking down herbivores is always a bit sad momentarily but that is nature, that is life and we can't do anything about that anyway. Animals for food are bred for that anyway, ie they wouldn't even exist if we didn't 'grow' them.
I love animals too (they are delicious) and remember us humans are top of the food chain!!!!


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## minnieme (Jul 6, 2011)

luvMyBRT said:


> This is a joke, right??!! LOL! Good one, RC!
> :twitch::twitch::twitch:


I know.... I was gonna say, "I feel like someone is purposefully trying to get a rise out of everyone!!"


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## cprcheetah (Jul 14, 2010)

minnieme said:


> I know.... I was gonna say, "I feel like someone is purposefully trying to get a rise out of everyone!!"


 I think that was definitely the goal here....some people live for drama.


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## smexywhales16 (Jan 15, 2011)

Why did you post this? (you just upset every if not all raw feeders), I think everyone who's been on dfc knows that raw feeders know dogs are carnivores and 
therefore eat other animals.
Its not a cycle that simply comes to an end because you love animals.


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## SilverBeat (Jan 16, 2011)

No living organism can survive without killing other organisms. I like knowing that the things I kill and eat myself and/or feed to my dog have had a good life--haven't been doused, injected or fed inappropriate amounts of insecticide/fungicide/herbicides, hormones, antibiotics, etc., and have been killed in a humane manner [in the case of animals].


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## SerenityFL (Sep 28, 2010)

Actually, I understand exactly what RC is trying to say. Even to this day, I cannot help but cringe just a little when I read posts about people getting rabbits and chickens and ducks and whatnot and then slaughtering them for their dogs. 

Yes, I UNDERSTAND it's the circle of life. Yes, I UNDERSTAND that our dogs are carnivores, they eat meat and the only place you are going to GET meat is from another animal. I understand that and I accept it.

But I also know what RC means.

Personally, I could not do it. Even when I think about fishing, I think I'm going to get a pole, I'm going to get a license, I'm going to go fishing and bring home dinner for the hoodlums and the cats. How perfect would that be?! 

But then, I envision me having to kill that fish. I can see it there, lying on the ground, gasping, suffocating, drowning. And holy hell, I don't think I could do it. I just don't have it in me when I can get an animal that is already killed by someone else. Does that make sense to anyone else? I seriously doubt that it does and I don't care if it does. It makes sense to me. 

I can block that part out when I go to the store and buy chicken. Could I kill Chicken Little from the park I used to work in back in Miami? HELL! NO! Can I go to the store and buy the already deceased chicken that is wrapped up in a package? Yes. Why? Because I did not have to see that animal look at me, I did not have to see that animal take its last breath, I did not have to see the bloodshed. I CAN remove myself from those thoughts, almost entirely, when I buy the meat already done.

The only possible way for me to be able to kill an animal on purpose and to eat it or feed it to my pets is if shtf and we are starving to death. Then...even then it would be hard for me but if I don't, we starve to death.

But for now, because I don't have to do it, I don't want to do it and I can't do it because I am not in the position where there is no other choice. 

It's not that RC doesn't understand where meat comes from or that he's just trying to get a rise out of everyone, it's that he wonders how people who claim to love animals can watch the life blink out of an animal at their hands. THAT is what he was asking. And I don't begrudge anyone who can do that, I don't think less of them, I just know, I can't.


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## DaneMama (Jun 27, 2008)

SerenityFL said:


> Actually, I understand exactly what RC is trying to say. Even to this day, I cannot help but cringe just a little when I read posts about people getting rabbits and chickens and ducks and whatnot and then slaughtering them for their dogs.
> 
> Yes, I UNDERSTAND it's the circle of life. Yes, I UNDERSTAND that our dogs are carnivores, they eat meat and the only place you are going to GET meat is from another animal. I understand that and I accept it.
> 
> ...


Honestly this is exactly why I think its important for people to become closer to where their food comes from, let alone the food they feed their dogs. You are correct in saying that because you don't have to you wont...but is that the RIGHT way to live? To me, no it isn't. The closer I get to living "farm" life, the more I understand the circle of life, how and why it is so important. Being that we are human and are at the top of that chain, I think we owe it to the animals that supply us food that we experience their lives. Even if it is the final hour. I feel 100,000X more grateful to any animal that we butcher ourselves that he/she gave their life. I can look it in the eye and say thank you, give it a quick and painless death. To me, this is far better than mindlessly going to the grocery store and picking up a package of meat and tossing it in the cart. 

Where did that meat come from? How was that animal treated? How was it killed? 

It is in fact hard to do. I've done it. I wont lie and say that I wasn't put off a bit by the first few times and couldn't watch...but now I just get it. I understand that this is how the world works. I feel more close to life in general with this experience and knowledge. Once you do it, you'll realize how gratifying it can be. 

I knew exactly what RC was asking. How could us dog lovers go out and kill other animals to feed them? That does in fact sound contradictory in the animal lovers sense. BUT I wholeheartedly believe that to butcher other animals for our dogs shows just how much we really do care. We humanely butcher animals that would otherwise be butchered by someone else (either humanely or not) and used for food.


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

SerenityFL said:


> Actually, I understand exactly what RC is trying to say. Even to this day, I cannot help but cringe just a little when I read posts about people getting rabbits and chickens and ducks and whatnot and then slaughtering them for their dogs.
> 
> Yes, I UNDERSTAND it's the circle of life. Yes, I UNDERSTAND that our dogs are carnivores, they eat meat and the only place you are going to GET meat is from another animal. I understand that and I accept it.
> 
> ...


i can understand what he's saying. i just don't think of it as a contradiction....

but i get what he's saying. 

for people like me, so far removed from bambi and the trim in the packaging, i don't have to confront myself.

i see the cattle grazing and i know one of them is giving up a steak for me, a roast for my dogs....or that cute fat hog....or the fish whom everyone says feels no pain when killed...

i am not without conscience. i would rather animals not be killed the way they are killed now....

i also know i will never be in a position to get to know my animals.....my circumstances don't call for it.....and never will.

but i do get it, RC....i do get it.


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

smexywhales16 said:


> Why did you post this? (you just upset every if not all raw feeders), I think everyone who's been on dfc knows that raw feeders know dogs are carnivores and
> therefore eat other animals.
> Its not a cycle that simply comes to an end because you love animals.


i think that RC's mind would go down this road.....he is very sensitive..


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## CorgiPaws (Mar 31, 2009)

For me, its about knowing what is going into my dogs. Dogs are carnivores and I love my dogs enough to feed them as such. I'm going to feed duck. Annie loves it. I would rather take a duck from some guys pond, one that has lived a true ducks life, and give it a quick death. To me, it is far more humane than giving my money to support factory raised animals in cages, piled on eachother. 

I'm not in a position to cut out factory raised meat entirely, but I do where I can. It is a lot of work.... those 20 ducks took all day.... but I will do it any time I can. I'm lucky my husband does the slaughtering because admittedly it would be very hard for me. But, that vacuum packed chicken off the shelf probably had a miserable existence, and a miserable death.... all for our convenience. 

I do it.... because I love animals.


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## lozzibear (Sep 13, 2010)

I find it really sad that animals have to die for me, and my dog, and for every other meat eater... but, it is life. I used to never be able to watch animal programmes where animals were being killed... It just upset me too much. I don't have that problem anymore though, I LOVE watching those programmes... Yeah, it is still sad seeing a lion take down a wildebeest, but it is fascinating! The sheer power they have, and the efficient-ness in which they do it... wow! That, to me, is nature at it's best. It will always be sad that an animal had to die, but it's the circle of life. Every animal has its purpose in life, and all fit together perfectly. 

I would struggle to kill an animal, but I wish I could so I could raise my own animals for that purpose, and then I know exactly where they are coming from and give them the best life... but, I know I just couldn't bring myself to do it. I think people really need to start to learn to get closer to their food. I was cutting up chickens for Jake tonight (something I started off really struggling to do) and I called my nephew (who is 7) through to watch me. I told him all about the chickens, and showed him everything... he was utterly disgusted and refused to touch it, but I told him that he needs to learn to be closer to his food... and not be so squeamish! It is too easy to get others to do the killing for us, I guess for some, that can take some of the guilt of the death off our hands... When someone else is doing the deed! 

When I have kids, they will be hands on with food as soon as I can get them to be, and right from the start they will see my preparing Jake's food. I hope they don't become the way I am now... I feel like a right coward sometimes (I'm not calling others cowards, that's just what I think for me). 

Anyway, the point is... what do you expect us to feed our dogs? They are carnivores, they need meat...


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## SerenityFL (Sep 28, 2010)

I have zero desire to learn about killing an animal and will not do so unless I have to. Like I said in my post, it doesn't have to make sense to anyone else, it's my opinion, I'm not wrong for having it, it makes sense to me and I'm not going to snap Thumper's neck to feed my dog unless I have NO other choice. Plain and simple.


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## DaneMama (Jun 27, 2008)

No one said you were wrong for having that opinion. I just don't agree with it due to the reasons stated before. Life would be boring if we all agreed on everything :thumb:


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## Noodlesmadison (Sep 18, 2011)

I'm vegan and an animal rights activist so I could not even fathom killing an animal - or fathom people who hunt, kill their own, etc. It goes against my moral grain.
I feed raw for my dogs health but every time I feed her, it's torture for me.


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## hmbutler (Aug 4, 2011)

DaneMama said:


> I can look it in the eye and say thank you, give it a quick and *painful *death. To me, this is far better than mindlessly going to the grocery store and picking up a package of meat and tossing it in the cart.


I'm assuming that's a typo? :lol:

I don't know that I could do the killing myself (though I wouldnt have though I could chop up raw bleeding beef heart before either) but it's not animal cruelty to feed your dog meat - it's more "animal cruelty" not to! Dogs are carnivores, they need to eat meat. Problem is, Duke doesn't have the means to go out and kill his own wildlife, so I source it for him.


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## DaneMama (Jun 27, 2008)

hmbutler said:


> I'm assuming that's a typo? :lol:
> 
> I don't know that I could do the killing myself (though I wouldnt have though I could chop up raw bleeding beef heart before either) but it's not animal cruelty to feed your dog meat - it's more "animal cruelty" not to! Dogs are carnivores, they need to eat meat. Problem is, Duke doesn't have the means to go out and kill his own wildlife, so I source it for him.


GAH! Yes....LOL *goes to edit post*


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## JayJayisme (Aug 2, 2009)

Noodlesmadison said:


> I'm vegan and an animal rights activist so I could not even fathom killing an animal - or fathom people who hunt, kill their own, etc. It goes against my moral grain.
> I feed raw for my dogs health but every time I feed her, it's torture for me.


Perhaps if you ever had to kill your own food, you would have a new found appreciation for the natural order of the animal kingdom and you wouldn't find it so morally appalling. When done in an ethical manner, it's about as natural a thing as you can do.


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## rannmiller (Jun 27, 2008)

Noodlesmadison said:


> I'm vegan and an animal rights activist so I could not even fathom killing an animal - or fathom people who hunt, kill their own, etc. It goes against my moral grain.
> I feed raw for my dogs health but every time I feed her, it's torture for me.


I love when I can find people who have killed the meat themselves, it gives me a new sort of respect for them. I absolutely hate when people will munch on a burger or steak and when I bring up animal rights they get all squeamish and tell me they don't want to think of their food as an animal because "it's gross" or "it makes them feel bad/guilty." If that's how you feel then you shouldn't be eating the animal in the first place! I would have a hard time killing an animal myself. I don't honestly know if I could do it. I know I should do it (an animal meant as food for my dogs, of course), but it would be hard for me to do I think. 

My brother and his now-ex gf are both vegan and both feed their cats raw and don't really have a problem with it because they know it's the best thing for their animals. My brother lives in an area where it's easy for him to get organic, free-range meat that's been raised locally so he does so. But he only has one cat to feed so he can afford that luxury I suppose.


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## CorgiPaws (Mar 31, 2009)

Noodlesmadison said:


> I'm vegan and an animal rights activist so I could not even fathom killing an animal - or fathom people who hunt, kill their own, etc. It goes against my moral grain.


If you know dogs are carnivores and should eat meat, then how does it go against your moral grain? I ask out of seriousness. 

I would rather kill my own, because I would rather animals get to live happy natural lives than live piled on each other in cages living miserably. The ducks I fed my dogs... they lived on a beautiful property, swam in a pond, were free..... and had a very quick, humane death. 
The ducks in a pretty package in a bin at Wal Mart... well, they lived in a cage, as many as will fit, in a warehouse, fed until they were fat enough to be killed by the masses. 

Now, I have a moral code when ti comes to animals, and I won't go into what that is... but I can tell you for certain which scenario I am OK with, and which ones makes me sad. NO, it is not easy for me to pick up live animals, knowing they will be my dogs dinner that night, I can even understand why some people just can't...but I am far from morally against it.


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## SerenityFL (Sep 28, 2010)

magicre said:


> i see the cattle grazing and i know one of them is giving up a steak for me, a roast for my dogs....or that cute fat hog....or the fish whom everyone says feels no pain when killed...


Sorry, re, didn't see this earlier.

This is the difference, I think. When I see a herd of cattle or a few chickens pecking around in a yard or even a pig rolling in mud, I do not think, "There's breakfast, lunch and dinner". I actually think about the animal and wonder what kind of character it has. I've gotten to know so many animals...so. many. types. And every fricken last one I've met, pet or not, ends up having some kind of character that makes it hard for me to imagine anyone eating it.

Ducks, gators, chickens, snakes....where I used to work...I got to know them. They all have distinct characters, (I refrain from saying, 'personality' lest someone think I am humanizing these animals...I am not!), and some of them are downright sociable. The one mallard who used to fly in to the park every day would come running when he saw us, to be around us. Chicken Little...jeez, I never knew chickens were that damn funny until I met this chicken. I sometimes wonder if this chicken knows he's a chicken. Even the gators who are not cuddly and cute and you can't pick them up and squeeze them, I can't. It helps that I don't like the taste, (yes, I tasted a nugget so I could honestly answer how they taste and it is NOT LIKE chicken at all!), but I still couldn't do it. When you spend almost your entire day around them, it's hard to imagine taking their life to eat them.

When I pass by a field with cows...hell yes I have guilt. I love cow. I love their meat and I love their milk. The milk I do not feel bad about drinking but the meat...yes I do think about it when I'm buying it and making it. It IS easier when I was not the one who had to kill it. I don't care if someone thinks I'm a hypocrite for that, (I've been called that in the past, several times, I don't care, think what you want), and I'm not going to get in to a debate about what humans need as far as food.

Heck, one time, when I lived in Seattle and was doing courier work, I got behind a truck with chickens in cages on it, on I-5 coming back in to Seattle. It was cold outside. The chickens were cramped in those little cages, just stuffed in there. I hated that. I felt horrible for those birds. I wanted to puke. I could not eat chicken for over a year because of it. I know where they were going. I didn't want to be the one that ate them. 

I have tried to be a vegetarian before...I just can't stand it. Maybe they have improved over the years, I don't know but I don't like most veggies, I am not in to beans and tofu? No. Just no.

It's not like I walk in to the store and blindly grab not having a second thought about it, I sure do. However, I didn't have to see it, as I said in my previous post, I didn't have to look it in the eye and see it looking back at me...no, I'm not going to do it. As it is, I don't eat a whole lot of meat anyway. Every fricken time I do buy meat thinking it's for me, 99% of the time it goes to the pets in the end. Some of that is money, some of that is my laziness and some of that is the guilt.

No one is wrong. If you can look at an animal and see your next steak dinner, that's how you see them. And some of us see an animal and see that animal as a creature that is living and breathing and can't find it in ourselves to steal that away from that animal by our own hands.

(But Serenity, you are doing that when you buy meat!) I know. Read what I just said, above.

I guess to make a comparison: In China, they eat dogs. I have seen the photos of those dogs, on their way to slaughter. Just like the chickens, those dogs are stuffed in to cages for transport. How some here might feel about that, feel about taking one of those dogs, killing it and feeding it to their own pets...maybe you can start to understand what I mean about other meat.


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## Unosmom (May 3, 2009)

I kinda see both sides of it, personally I could never slaughter animals for food (I cant even fish without feeling guilty) because I get emotionally attached to all of them(is my pets life worth more then cows or chickens?) , regardless of the species (heck, I even do catch and release with bugs that end up in the house). But obviously I'm being a hypocrite if I turn a blind eye by buying prepackaged meats and fooling myself into thinking that it didnt come from the same animal that I would not kill myself. Ideally I'd like to buy from local farmers, but I cant even afford to buy organic for myself half the time, so as much as I'd like to support humane approach to raising feed animals, its little out of reach at this point. Quite frankly the slaughtering topics are quite off-putting, so I dont read them anymore, some people seem way to excited about butchering and laugh about really gory details which I just cant agree with. But again, this is just a difference of opinion, nothing less nothing more.


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## RachelsaurusRexU (Sep 4, 2010)

Unosmom said:


> I kinda see both sides of it, personally I could never slaughter animals for food (I cant even fish without feeling guilty) because I get emotionally attached to all of them(is my pets life worth more then cows or chickens?) , regardless of the species (heck, I even do catch and release with bugs that end up in the house). But obviously I'm being a hypocrite if I turn a blind eye by buying prepackaged meats and fooling myself into thinking that it didnt come from the same animal that I would not kill myself. Ideally I'd like to buy from local farmers, but I cant even afford to buy organic for myself half the time, so as much as I'd like to support humane approach to raising feed animals, its little out of reach at this point. Quite frankly the slaughtering topics are quite off-putting, so I dont read them anymore, some people seem way to excited about butchering and laugh about really gory details which I just cant agree with. But again, this is just a difference of opinion, nothing less nothing more.


This is pretty much how I feel. 

I don't necessarily WANT animals to die, but I do want to do what's best for my dogs and cats. I also understand that it's a natural part of life for some animals to die so that others can survive. Yet, I cannot kill...I feel guilty killing most bugs. I do feel *far* worse for the animals whose meat I purchase from the wholesaler than I do for the animals whose scraps my hunting friends are kind enough to gift me with. At least those animals lived free and naturally and hopefully had a quick death as opposed to an entire life spent penned up and suffering. If I could afford all free range local stuff, I would go that route in a heartbeat....but I can't. And since I can't bring myself to kill, it's unfortunately going to be mostly factory farmed meat for my crew at this point in time. I understand why people raise or purchase and kill their own animals, and if I had it in me to do the deed, I probably would too. It still bothers me to read those posts, so like Unosmom I just try to stay away from them, but I don't feel that raw feeding is a contradiction.


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## RCTRIPLEFRESH5 (Feb 11, 2010)

rannmiller said:


> I agree with everyone else. Heck I'm even a vegetarian and I feed my dogs raw! I believe in feeding species appropriately. My dogs are carnivores and will be fed as such (no I'm not interested in the slightest about arguing that humans need to eat meat so don't even try or bother please). And as everyone else pointed out, there are animals being killed for your dog's kibble, at least I know the quality and freshness of the quality of meat being fed to my dogs and I know they aren't getting any species-inappropriate ingredients like potatoes, pea protein, fruits, veggies, grains, menadione sodium bisulfite, etc. You come on here with the myriad of problems that Winston has and you're willing to literally try everything under the sun to try to help him except change him to a species appropriate diet that may very well actually solve most if not all of his issues. You say you don't want to give him antibiotics, flea medication, and other unnatural medications and treatments, but you'll feed him over-processed cereal as his only source of nutrition. You say you want to help him and you're willing to try all sorts of other treatments and home remedies, but you absolutely refuse to listen to people who have experienced first hand how raw can benefit the same problems you're dealing with with your own dog. Then you get all defensive about how you have no interest in feeding raw or even looking into it. Then you have the audacity to come onto our section (thank you for posting this in the raw section so I can say all of this actually) and tell us that our way of feeding is somehow cruel or an oxymoron when you are intentionally keeping your dog riddled with medical issues and miserable because you refused to look into an alternative way of feeding that may help him because you're too stubborn to listen to a word we have to say. You sir, are the one who is being a hypocrite, not us.


how would a raw diet help winstons allergys when i dont even know what he is allergic too? chicken is chicken.


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## CorgiPaws (Mar 31, 2009)

RCTRIPLEFRESH5 said:


> how would a raw diet help winstons allergys when i dont even know what he is allergic too? chicken is chicken.


Because a raw diet eliminates ALL the fillers and ingredients that commonly irritate dogs. 
And cooked chicken is NOT the same as raw chicken. Many dogs have allergies to meats in their cooked form, but are fine with them in raw form. This logically makes a lot of sense because cooking changes the makeup of proteins and dogs are designed to utilize *raw* meats, not cooked ones. 


long story short: he's a carnivore.


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## Scarlett_O' (May 19, 2011)

RCTRIPLEFRESH5 said:


> how would a raw diet help winstons allergys when i dont even know what he is allergic too? chicken is chicken.


No it's not! It's WELL KNOWN and I can state from personal experience there is a HUGE difference between cooked and raw, and my experience is with chicken! My Brody has HORRID reactions to any cooked chicken, kibble, homemade, in treats, etc(and I'm talking hives, hair loss, itchy/red/hot to the touch skin, and more) but with raw he can have it all!!!


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## RCTRIPLEFRESH5 (Feb 11, 2010)

my sympathy for animals stops at bugs..i give them brutal painful torturous deaths lol


Unosmom said:


> I kinda see both sides of it, personally I could never slaughter animals for food (I cant even fish without feeling guilty) because I get emotionally attached to all of them(is my pets life worth more then cows or chickens?) , regardless of the species (heck, I even do catch and release with bugs that end up in the house). But obviously I'm being a hypocrite if I turn a blind eye by buying prepackaged meats and fooling myself into thinking that it didnt come from the same animal that I would not kill myself. Ideally I'd like to buy from local farmers, but I cant even afford to buy organic for myself half the time, so as much as I'd like to support humane approach to raising feed animals, its little out of reach at this point. Quite frankly the slaughtering topics are quite off-putting, so I dont read them anymore, some people seem way to excited about butchering and laugh about really gory details which I just cant agree with. But again, this is just a difference of opinion, nothing less nothing more.


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## Cliffdog (Dec 30, 2010)

RCTRIPLEFRESH5 said:


> see all these threads on killing ducks, or other animals all for the betterment of our animals. I mean where does it become too much? Isn't killing one animal for another kind of defeating the purpose of being an animal lover?


You're not freaking serious. WOW. That's dumb.


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## DoglovingSenior (Jun 26, 2011)

RCTRIPLEFRESH5 said:


> how would a raw diet help winstons allergys when i dont even know what he is allergic too? chicken is chicken.


 This question seems rather disingenuous considering the length of time that you have been on this Forum. I only joined when you were in the throes of to do, or not to do re: putting a very ill Shane out of his misery. Some of the reasons for going PMR have been directed to you in hopes of your doing something major thing that makes sense as to keeping poor Winston around awhile longer. You would rather waste the Forums time & your energy by worrying about cutting a cuticle too close, or aspirating imaginary tumors-as my Grandmother used to say "Pshaw!"

As for being an animal lover-get real. I am certainly an animal lover & the animals that I love the most are MY animals & I would do most things to insure their welfare. We're highest up on the food chain and Yes, we do eat animals. Could I kill animals myself to eat-NO, I can't kill them with a Wonderful compound Bow that I own , or a shotgun or a rifle-I cannot even eat "wild" animals. A Big City girl born & bread & too many Disney movies. 

Killing isn't the worse thing that can happen to an animal-people should travel to India and see the cows that are "worshipped" lying sick, diseased and dying lying in the streets unable to stand making the most tebbible sounds. Now, them I could have kill-a bullet would be merciful. I actually cancelled a trip to China, years ago I made myself watch an HBO special done with hidden cameras. The cutest young (about a year) GSD in a cage behind the restaurant-the 12 year old child who selected him for her b-day dinner. The pups tail wagging until they began skinning him ALIVE - I screamed. Or the cat who was put into the boiling water to loosen his coat/skin (I don't know) ALIVE-I could have killed then if I was on the scene and had a bullet. These animals used to be for poor people they have become a new Middle Class status symbol. When I called my friend who had been 6 or 7 times, she loved China and assured me that I would never (be allowed) to see these things, but it killed my desire to visit that nation. So, in certain instances animal lover me could kill an animal.

I turned to RAW when my Heart Dogs Oncologist told me to skip the vaccination & take titres and to use the best food possible-back then (1998) it was still "read the labels carefully" ( I have had some Great dogs and I have loved them all, but never one like him before or after. If he is not at the Bridge waiting for me-I can skip Heaven. But every dog that I had after his death benefitted from his death I went to raw within a month of his death. His "mate" lived to be 14. I have not had another die before 9 as he did. I respect every opinion given on here-from the vegans, to those who kill their own animals, ALL except one, because I really do not think that this person gives his REAL opinion on most things. 

When I looked at Today's posts and saw the name of the Thread & who began the Thread. I fell out laughing. I looked at the three sleeping dogs around me -Rottie Rescue who will be 13 in February; APBT who will be 11 in November & the Tiny Tibetan Spaniel who is ??? - I actually laughed and said out loud "Damn", he's got the Forum again! <LOLOLOLOL> You're GOOD!


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## rannmiller (Jun 27, 2008)

What a fantastic post! I think we could all go on for days about how raw has benefited our dogs, but we already have at some point on this forum. All one needs to do is read the posts from the past to see that. If one does not wish to educate oneself, then why does one come to a public forum to pick fights?


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## Dude and Bucks Mamma (May 14, 2011)

RCTRIPLEFRESH5 said:


> see all these threads on killing ducks, or other animals all for the betterment of our animals. I mean where does it become too much? Isn't killing one animal for another kind of defeating the purpose of being an animal lover?


No. It doesn't. If animals didn't get eaten by other animals, the world would be overrun and everything would die. You can see this in the simple food chain of grass, rabbits, and coyotes in Southern California. You have lush, green, plentiful grass. This results in more rabbits. The rise in the numbers of rabbits results in the rise in the number of coyotes. The rabbits' numbers then dwindle due to both eating all of the grass (more rabbits than the habitat can handle) and being eaten by the plentiful coyotes. The rabbits then become scarce. As a result, coyote numbers go down because there is not enough food for them. Now, because there are not a huge amount of rabbits, the grass has a chance to recover, which results in more rabbits, then more coyotes and the cycle starts all over. Everything keeps everything else in balance.

I love animals. I don't particularly love primates or bugs, but just about everything else is adored by me. I LOVE cows with their big doe eyes and their rough tongues, but I also understand that they are part of the food chain. I love antelope. I think they are some of the most magnificent animals on the planet. I prefer them over lions and other predators, but their deaths are necessary for the survival of the predators. 

I also agree with those like Natalie who say that by raising our own animals for food, we can ensure that, prior to slaughter, they actually get to live as the animals they are. We have a friend who raises his own sheep, pigs, chickens, and cattle. Those animals are played with by the kids, watched over by their Great Pyrenees, Zeus and Iris, and have the dream life (for a barn animal). They are sweet and friendly and aren't stressed out at all. They get to graze and just be pigs or sheep or whatever. When the time comes for slaughter, it is done as quick and painless as possible. The animals bought in supermarkets? They are pumped full of inappropriate foods, forced to live in a small space usually with their own waste, and live unnaturally short lives due to their accelerated growth. How anyone can justify supporting that while calling raising your own meat cruel is just nutty in my book. 



Noodlesmadison said:


> I'm vegan and an animal rights activist so I could not even fathom killing an animal - or fathom people who hunt, kill their own, etc. It goes against my moral grain.
> I feed raw for my dogs health but every time I feed her, it's torture for me.


Not all of us are vegan. Most of us are not, I think. I could be wrong as I don't know everyone here personally, but what I don't understand is where do animal rights activists draw the line? Why is it ok for a lion, painted dog or hyena to kill and eat Thomson's gazelle, but it is wrong for me to kill and eat (or feed to the dogs) a mule deer? We are omnivores which means we eat meat. Because we are omnivores, that means we (as well as our carnivorous canines) have been given the tools by nature to chew, digest, and find nutrition in meat. 

Another question: If you are an *animal rights* activist, how does feeding your dog meat (his *right* as a carnivore) go against your moral grain? Please keep in mind that I don't have anything against vegans or vegetarians. It is just a mindset I have never understood and, as Natalie says, what would this world be if were all exactly the same? 




SerenityFL said:


> Sorry, re, didn't see this earlier.
> 
> This is the difference, I think. When I see a herd of cattle or a few chickens pecking around in a yard or even a pig rolling in mud, I do not think, "There's breakfast, lunch and dinner". I actually think about the animal and wonder what kind of character it has. I've gotten to know so many animals...so. many. types. And every fricken last one I've met, pet or not, ends up having some kind of character that makes it hard for me to imagine anyone eating it.
> 
> ...


Serenity, I can't help but feel that you are making this about you. No one here is looking down on you for feeling the way you do. We are all different and there are many different views. There is nothing wrong with that. You are one of those who simply does not like the idea of killing an animal yourself. THAT'S OK!!!  We don't mind. I hate seeing those chicken cages too. It's awful! That is why I hope to one day be able to rear my own chickens so they can scratch around in the dirt looking for bugs and run around flapping their wings and live life like a real chicken SHOULD be able to. Yes, they will end up being killed for meat, but because I was the one doing it, I will know that they lived as stress free of a life as I can possibly provide. Same for any other animals I raise. 

You don't have to justify why you feel the way you do. Some people just don't have what it takes to be able to raise and kill their own animals. Heck! I'm not even sure I do! But one day, I will find out. If I don't, oh well. If I do, GREAT! In order to make society successful, we have to have all types of people. 



RCTRIPLEFRESH5 said:


> how would a raw diet help winstons allergys when i dont even know what he is allergic too? chicken is chicken.


Go check out some of the threads. You have been here long enough to have been able to read most of them but hey, maybe you missed them. Cooked chicken can have a tremendously different effect on a dog than raw chicken. It is not uncommon for dogs to be allergic to meats in their cooked form. A lot of things in dog foods cause allergies. Potatoes, grains, etc. They are not actually meant to eat those things. They are designed to eat meat and that is why dogs do better on a raw diet. Even if you are skeptical about a raw diet, there is no reason you couldn't try it out for a few months and, if Winston gets no better, then you can go back to kibble. All of us here are convinced raw feeders, but there is no law that says switching to raw HAS to be permanent. For us, it is permanent because we have seen how much better our dogs are on raw vs kibble. No one can make you keep feeding raw if it doesn't work out for Winston.


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## Cliffdog (Dec 30, 2010)

RC, you're always grasping at straws for an argument to substantiate your dislike of raw and continued feeding of a kibble diet. It's your dog, feed it how you want. You don't need to justify anything to us.


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## sozzle (May 18, 2011)

I agree, just one big 'shit stirrer'


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## Love my lab (Dec 9, 2010)

If one cannot understand why one would feed raw then what is all the interest in it? Why post up about it? Also, hunters who hunt for food to feed their family is a far cry from someone who say just kills bugs because......obviously this statement is two ends of the spectrum here and a tad blown out of proportion, but killing is killing right? Before kibble goes into that pretty package it starts out as what...grains, some kind of meat, chemicals to preserve and veggies.....so actually I do believe you allow your dog to eat things that were killed for food..yes? Only difference is what you pour into your dogs bowl is processed and shaped into little round pellets....there ya go nutrition I guess and justifiable. Really to each their own, but to start a thread or rather state how killing one animal to feed another is wrong or if you do it means your not an animal lover...kinda the pot calling the kettle black in my book. I can understand how some can not kill an animal themselves but can feed it no problem---some can handle it and some can not, no crime there, but if you choose not to feed your animal this way, feed yourself or family this way then that is fine but why comment about it? I come from a hunting family and married into one. With that being said, not one thing has ever been killed for anything other then food...no trophy huntin here. Can't get more organic then hunting for yourself, and doing your own processing. I love my dog, and for sure do not think it means I love her any less because we hunt and I put raw meat infront of her at each meal time rather then pouring a bowl full of kibble.


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## meggels (May 30, 2010)

RCTRIPLEFRESH5 said:


> how would a raw diet help winstons allergys when i dont even know what he is allergic too? chicken is chicken.


My frenchie has been on PMR style raw for *thinks* probably 4 days or so...

He's been on premade style for a few months at a time. 

He's been on god knows how many kibbles.


And just in four days I've already noticed a big decrease in the amount that he licks/sucks on his paws


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## spookychick13 (Jan 26, 2010)

I couldn't do it. I admit it. I like my meat from a package.
I can't slaughter anything. *shrug* I put spiders outside instead of killing them.
Maybe I'm a wimp, maybe I am wearing blinders, whatever.
What other people think of me is none of my business.

However, I hope those doing 'home slaughter' know WTF they are doing.


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

SerenityFL said:


> Sorry, re, didn't see this earlier.
> 
> This is the difference, I think. When I see a herd of cattle or a few chickens pecking around in a yard or even a pig rolling in mud, I do not think, "There's breakfast, lunch and dinner". I actually think about the animal and wonder what kind of character it has. I've gotten to know so many animals...so. many. types. And every fricken last one I've met, pet or not, ends up having some kind of character that makes it hard for me to imagine anyone eating it.
> 
> ...


i think, and maybe i didn't say it....when i look at cattle and other proteins....and i do call them that...no longer is it bambi and thumper...and maybe that's the raw feeding girl in me now...i pay them a homage, but i don't have guilt knowing they are going to be my food....

i don't care for the way animals are killed commercially....so if people kill their own food, i would hope they have compassion and make the death and quick and easy one.

it shouldn't be easy to kill anything. but there are reasons to do so.....survival and the food chain. 

and to the person who thinks that it takes away from the animal's rights...i say this.

i don't take away their right to be food for me and my dogs.


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## IslandPaws4Raw (Sep 7, 2011)

When I pass by a field with cows...hell yes I have guilt. I love cow. I love their meat and I love their milk. The milk I do not feel bad about drinking but the meat...yes I do think about it when I'm buying it and making it. It IS easier when I was not the one who had to kill it. I don't care if someone thinks I'm a hypocrite for that, (I've been called that in the past, several times, I don't care, think what you want), and I'm not going to get in to a debate about what humans need as far as food.

UMMMM SerenityFL, how could you not feel bad about milk? This is probably the most heartbreaking process when it comes to supplying the demand for our own consumption IMO........Veal anyone???


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## Porphyria (Jul 13, 2011)

Noodlesmadison said:


> I'm vegan and an animal rights activist so I could not even fathom killing an animal - or fathom people who hunt, kill their own, etc. It goes against my moral grain.
> I feed raw for my dogs health but every time I feed her, it's torture for me.



I completely agree. I'm not vegan but I've been a strict vegetarian for many years. I'm not really thrilled with the idea that animals need to die in order to feed my dog, but I know he can't thrive on a vegetarian diet so I accept it. But most humans can thrive on a vegetarian diet. Animals bred and raised solely to die and be consumed hardly constitutes "the circle of life;" it's so far from natural. Livestock on factory farms don't even get a chance to live before before they die. I have more respect for people who humanely raise and kill their own animals. I could never do it so I don't eat meat. My mom eats meat but can't stomach the thought of where it comes from; I think that's a bit disengenuous. If I can't bring myself to think of what it was before it was on my plate, where it came from, etc., then I'm not going to eat it.


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

Porphyria said:


> I completely agree. I'm not vegan but I've been a strict vegetarian for many years. I'm not really thrilled with the idea that animals need to die in order to feed my dog, but I know he can't thrive on a vegetarian diet so I accept it. But most humans can thrive on a vegetarian diet. Animals bred and raised solely to die and be consumed hardly constitutes "the circle of life;" it's so far from natural. Livestock on factory farms don't even get a chance to live before before they die. I have more respect for people who humanely raise and kill their own animals. I could never do it so I don't eat meat. My mom eats meat but can't stomach the thought of where it comes from; I think that's a bit disengenuous. If I can't bring myself to think of what it was before it was on my plate, where it came from, etc., then I'm not going to eat it.


for an animal who is destined to become food for someone, be it wolf, dog, or me.....that is the circle of life. birth, life, death, food.

the part about how they live is in question and is not pleasant for most animals. 'course, life isn't pleasant for many humans or dogs, either....

but it is the circle of life....i guess no one was ever promised a rose garden.....i can no longer put blinders on. i see how food proteins are treated....it's horrific in many cases...

i also see how grains and vegetables and fruits are treated. also horrific....

on the other hand....it's eat or die. 

how we choose to eat is up to us. our dogs don't have the luxury of choice, so we make it for them....and the animals who die to become their proteins or ours, also didn't have a choice....therein lies the problems.....

i would much prefer to see linsey kill her own ducks because she will do it humanely or have her husband do it humanely than to see the cattle slaughtered...and i've seen how animals are killed.....so no blinders here.


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## CavePaws (Jan 25, 2011)

> I completely agree. I'm not vegan but I've been a strict vegetarian for many years. I'm not really thrilled with the idea that animals need to die in order to feed my dog, but I know he can't thrive on a vegetarian diet so I accept it. But most humans can thrive on a vegetarian diet. Animals bred and raised solely to die and be consumed hardly constitutes "the circle of life;" it's so far from natural. Livestock on factory farms don't even get a chance to live before before they die. I have more respect for people who humanely raise and kill their own animals. I could never do it so I don't eat meat. My mom eats meat but can't stomach the thought of where it comes from; I think that's a bit disengenuous. If I can't bring myself to think of what it was before it was on my plate, where it came from, etc., then I'm not going to eat it.


I was a vegetarian for almost a third of my short life.  One day after nearly six years I caved and ate a steak and really really enjoyed it...Aside from the fact that I was constipated for days afterwards. TMI...I know.

Either way, after coming to this forum my eyes have been opened wide to the fact that I live with MANY carnivores, one omnivore, and a couple of insectivores. I'm an omnivore myself. Of course I was aware of this, but I didn't treat my animals as such. I've seen a couple of killing threads and they don't bother me. I've come to the conclusion that since I like to eat meat so much, since I live with carnivores, and since I contribute SO MUCH to the factory farming industry - I should probably do what I can to separate myself from what I once "protested" so long ago by refraining from eating any meat myself. 

I want to start hunting, badly. I wish I lived in a more rural area with bigger game, so I could hunt more regularly and one kill would harvest more food. I should start buying and butchering livestock, though I highly doubt I could look a cow in the eyes and shortly thereafter dispatch it. For some reason I think a goat, chickens, ducks, pigs would be much easier? But probably not too much once I've done it a few times. I've owned a pet duck as well and loved him just like I love my dogs. He was an awesome creature. I can't imagine hundreds of him being kept in horrible, cramped conditions. To me, animals need to be respected. It is a rare occasion now that the animals we eat lived a respectable life and were removed from consciousness in a respectable way. I wish so much our world hadn't become this way and we still hunted our food regularly and put the actual work into eating meat. I assure you, I would eat much less meat if the only meat I ate was the meat I hunted or butchered myself. It would regulate my meat consumption in such a way to where I would not feel bad if I ate a lot of meat or a tiny bit of meat. I look at the supermarkets and wonder, what do they do with the meat that goes bad because no one is buying it?! That is an animal going to waste because it was slaughtered before someone was ready to eat it! We wouldn't have this kind of waste going on if we ate only what we killed ourselves.

And. On top of all this. There are SO MANY parts of an animal, I could put it ALL to use. All of it. My dogs could have the skeletal remains, they could have the eye balls, they could pick to their hearts content at what I didn't take from the animal myself to eat.

I'll stop myself now. 
I noticed RC was banned a second ago. I can't say I didn't see that one coming with how he has been acting lately. Sheesh.


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## spookychick13 (Jan 26, 2010)

I'm going to reiterate, as long as the 'home slaughter' is done humanely.
I also couldn't give my dogs live prey. They are far too inept at killing.


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## meggels (May 30, 2010)

oh wow, he was banned?


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## Cliffdog (Dec 30, 2010)

It wouldn't surprise me. I'm tired of him starting these threads.


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## CavePaws (Jan 25, 2011)

spookychick13 said:


> I'm going to reiterate, as long as the 'home slaughter' is done humanely.
> I also couldn't give my dogs live prey. They are far too inept at killing.


I've always pondered if my dogs could kill their own food. Unfortunately, any death dealt by my dogs would not be a quick one; subsequently I can't or rather will not give them live prey. Oh, how easy would it be just to go buy 4 rabbits and let them loose in the yard. "if y'all don't catch and kill your dindin you don't eat" Unfortunately I have a feeling my dogs would just play with the poor creature until it had a heart attack OR lost too much blood. :| I couldn't and never would let that kind of thing happen to a creature. Not when I can prevent the pain and suffering.


edit:

And ya, well he was sort of going around being a big cry baby over the littlest things. Asking for advice and then shooting everyone down who gave that advice to him. Acting like a complete fool blowing things COMPLETELY out of proportion. And his last moves seem to have been in attempt to get an uprise out of the community. Obviously he was starved for attention.


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## meggels (May 30, 2010)

I guess I thought he was like the one person who would stir the pot and never get banned because you couldn't tell if he was serious/malicious or just mentally challenged.


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## Porphyria (Jul 13, 2011)

magicre said:


> i also see how grains and vegetables and fruits are treated. also horrific....
> 
> on the other hand....it's eat or die.


I don't think it's at all appropriate to compare plants and animals. Plants have no nervous system and thus feel no pain. Animals on the other hand (well those with nervous systems at least) do feel pain. Plants aren't conscious organisms and they don't feel pain, so I'm not too concerned about killing them.


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## CavePaws (Jan 25, 2011)

JayJayisme said:


> One last thing though. I find this...to be an incredibly immature and callous statement. Bugs are as much a part of the food chain as anything else and they too feel stress, danger, and pain and at least deserve humane treatment, even when they are exterminated. Let's be real here, sometimes insects and arachnids need to be killed. I don't want mosquitoes or black widows in my house biting me, my family, or my dogs. But these creatures are just doing what nature intended for them, and in many cases, they are food for some other creature. Who are we to inflict "brutal painful torturous deaths" on them just because we don't like them? Talk about a contradiction! "I am the human therefore I decide which creatures get humane treatment, and which don't." Ridiculous. Another classic RC utterance that only reveals what we are dealing with here.


That irked me beyond belief. Here we are trying to defend our way of feeding our dogs from some pardon me, lunatic, and he has the cojones to state that he doesn't feel bad brutally killing innocent little creatures. How completely and utterly immature. Personally, I feel the forum has been bettered now that he is no longer present. Thank you moderation.


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## Dude and Bucks Mamma (May 14, 2011)

spookychick13 said:


> I couldn't do it. I admit it. I like my meat from a package.
> I can't slaughter anything. *shrug* I put spiders outside instead of killing them.
> Maybe I'm a wimp, maybe I am wearing blinders, whatever.
> What other people think of me is none of my business.
> ...


I haven't attempted it yet, but rest assured, those of us on DFC who talk about killing our own animals, would never do it carelessly. I would let 20 ducks have the run of my backyard for a week if I still felt I needed to find a quicker way of killing them. No one said you were a wimp or ignorant or anything. We are not opposed to those who don't want to raise their own meat animals. We just don't want to be called hypocrites for caring about the health and well being of our dogs. I have said it many times in this thread: What would this world be if we were all the same? You don't have what it takes to kill your own meat animal. That's ok. I might not either. I can hunt and skin no problem, but I don't know about bunnies or chickens or whatever that I bring home still alive. No one is expecting you to butcher your own animals rather than buy them. Don't worry about what we all say so much! 



JayJayisme said:


> As a big meat eater, I'm at the opposite end of the spectrum. When I see a herd of cattle meandering in a pasture, all I can think is how delicious they look. The way I see it, they are there to feed us, plain and simple.
> 
> Since some of the vegans/vegetarians have used this thread to espouse their "virtuous eating habits", it's only fair to offer a polite counterpoint. I personally think veganism is unnatural and is slowly harming the population. Based on information I've read published by anthropologists, I believe humans, while omnivores, need meat more than vegetables. Humans can fulfill almost every nutritional requirement from eating properly raised meat. The same cannot be said for vegetables. There is a reason why hunter-gatherers devoted so much effort seeking out and killing the largest game animals, and less time/effort gathering plant-based foods. Meat is where the bulk of their caloric intake and nutrients came from.
> 
> ...


I have yet to be guilted into feeling immoral for eating meat. Haha. Honestly (and no offense to those who love PETA), I have two reactions when I see their big vegan campaigns. One: my blood boils because of the way they go about things and two: I tend to laugh hysterically. I don't buy into the vegan way of life. Maybe I would if I was a horse, but I'm not. I am a human which means I am an omnivore. Plus, I love steak. It's great. I won't tell a vegan not to be a vegan, but I won't allow a vegan to try and make me feel guilty for eating meat. 

Thank you for bringing great points for the meat eaters. 

Anyhow, on to more important things. I read that statement and decided to skip over it BECAUSE it was so childish. I had the same opinion as you, JayJay. Why is it so wrong to kill a bovine for consumption but ok to torture a bug simply because you don't like them. Two of my biggest fears are spiders (more commonly known to me as 8 legged death bugs) and mosquito hawks (aka wispy bugs). When one of those gets into my house, Nick is yelled for to "Kill it! Kill it! KILL IT!!!" which is often followed by "I think it has a gun!". Yes, I'm a baby when it comes to those bugs. I will scream and run if a wispy big flies my way. However, they are squished quickly and efficiently. No torture. Chances are, these bugs never even know what happened. And that's how it should be.


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## Dude and Bucks Mamma (May 14, 2011)

Porphyria said:


> I don't think it's at all appropriate to compare plants and animals. Plants have no nervous system and thus feel no pain. Animals on the other hand (well those with nervous systems at least) do feel pain. Plants aren't conscious organisms and they don't feel pain, so I'm not too concerned about killing them.


I don't know if that's how Re meant it. It could have been. The way I took it was she was comparing the way the food animals are treated as far as growth and the process and how our fruits, veggies, etc are treated (pesticides, etc). I could be WAY off base here though. Haha.


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

Porphyria said:


> I don't think it's at all appropriate to compare plants and animals. Plants have no nervous system and thus feel no pain. Animals on the other hand (well those with nervous systems at least) do feel pain. Plants aren't conscious organisms and they don't feel pain, so I'm not too concerned about killing them.


i guess we all have our own lines in the sand....

you have an opinion and i accept that, but i do believe it is appropriate to think the way i do.


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

Dude and Bucks Mamma said:


> I don't know if that's how Re meant it. It could have been. The way I took it was she was comparing the way the food animals are treated as far as growth and the process and how our fruits, veggies, etc are treated (pesticides, etc). I could be WAY off base here though. Haha.


you said it better than i did. i think of the earth as alive and it is. we are depleting it.

and, whilst plants don't cry or say ow when we step on them, we are killing the very world we live in....as to how we treat all living things.

and to go one step further.....humans don't treat humans very well, so it's a sad commentary on how humanity treats its animals....

on the other hand, we need to eat, whether we are vegan or not. 

i haven't eaten meat in several weeks for medical experimentation.....i still don't feel guilty when i see steaks on sale. 

and i still don't like how commercial corporations modify the grains we eat, the bananas are cloned and the animals are treated terribly. 

i don't have to like it. because i have a choice to buy land, grow my own food and take it to the slaughterer or gather my food myself.

since i don't, then i have chosen to allow these practises to continue....which means i don't get the right to bitch.


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## DaneMama (Jun 27, 2008)

RC has been given a 7 day time out. It was smart on his part to immediately delete his last post on this thread, it was pretty nasty. 

Either way, let's all stay respectful even if he hasn't had the best attitude lately.


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## Cliffdog (Dec 30, 2010)

As far as the humanity of home slaughter... well, I imagine any form of home slaughter is more humane than how most large farms have it done.


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## Porphyria (Jul 13, 2011)

magicre said:


> i guess we all have our own lines in the sand....
> 
> you have an opinion and i accept that, but i do believe it is appropriate to think the way i do.


You're right, it all comes down to opinion and perspective. Philosophically I lean toward utilitarianism, which puts a great deal of emphasis on pleasure/pain. To me, that makes so much sense. But others are influenced by different ethical systems, and approach things from a different perspective. I'm sorry if my post seemed rude; so often people try to argue with me when they find out I'm a vegetarian and I've had a number of people get this smug smile and say "what about plants? You don't mind killing them?" thinking they've really caught me. I'm so used to responding to people like that, so when I saw your comment, I guess it was the chip on my shoulder taking more than anything else. I respect your views and I like hearing your opinion; that's why I like message boards--my eyes are open to perspectives I never would have encountered otherwise.


Dude and Buck's Mama, please don't let your views on vegetarians/vegans/animal rights activists/animal welfare activists be influenced by your opinions on PETA! Most of the vegetarians I know, myself included, can't stand PETA. They do us all a disservice; because they are so vocal people tend to think they speak for all of us and that is definitely not true!


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## KittyKat (Feb 11, 2011)

Cliffdog said:


> As far as the humanity of home slaughter... well, I imagine any form of home slaughter is more humane than how most large farms have it done.


I agree! Those large farms and their feedlots have horrible conditions.... hence I get all my meat from a local butcher who gets his stuff from small local farms.


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## Noodlesmadison (Sep 18, 2011)

JayJayisme said:


> Perhaps if you ever had to kill your own food, you would have a new found appreciation for the natural order of the animal kingdom and you wouldn't find it so morally appalling. When done in an ethical manner, it's about as natural a thing as you can do.


I never could or would. There is no reason to eat meat (for humans) I've been vegan forever and I am healthier than my meat eating friends/family. My dog does not have the greatest health so I started to feed her raw 2 months ago. But, I would NEVER kill an animal. I can't even kill the roaches in my bathroom... and I wouldn't kill anything just to help someone feel better about their opinions either.


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## Cliffdog (Dec 30, 2010)

KittyKat said:


> I agree! Those large farms and their feedlots have horrible conditions.... hence I get all my meat from a local butcher who gets his stuff from small local farms.


Do you find meat is much more expensive buying from small local farms? I've been considering giving up commercially produced meat in favor of a diet based on only things I personally killed or at least know that they were humanely slaughtered.


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## Noodlesmadison (Sep 18, 2011)

PuppyPaws said:


> If you know dogs are carnivores and should eat meat, then how does it go against your moral grain? I ask out of seriousness.
> 
> I would rather kill my own, because I would rather animals get to live happy natural lives than live piled on each other in cages living miserably. The ducks I fed my dogs... they lived on a beautiful property, swam in a pond, were free..... and had a very quick, humane death.
> The ducks in a pretty package in a bin at Wal Mart... well, they lived in a cage, as many as will fit, in a warehouse, fed until they were fat enough to be killed by the masses.
> ...


I feed my dog raw because it's for her health and what her body is meant to eat. That does not mean I have to like it! Every time I feed her or buy meat, I am overcome with sadness (as I did when I bought her canned food). Doesn't mean she won't get it, but I am entitled to my opinions and moral thoughts.


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## meggels (May 30, 2010)

I'm sorry, it wasn't nice of me to call him mentally challenged.


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

Porphyria said:


> You're right, it all comes down to opinion and perspective. Philosophically I lean toward utilitarianism, which puts a great deal of emphasis on pleasure/pain. To me, that makes so much sense. But others are influenced by different ethical systems, and approach things from a different perspective. I'm sorry if my post seemed rude; so often people try to argue with me when they find out I'm a vegetarian and I've had a number of people get this smug smile and say "what about plants? You don't mind killing them?" thinking they've really caught me. I'm so used to responding to people like that, so when I saw your comment, I guess it was the chip on my shoulder taking more than anything else. I respect your views and I like hearing your opinion; that's why I like message boards--my eyes are open to perspectives I never would have encountered otherwise.
> 
> 
> Dude and Buck's Mama, please don't let your views on vegetarians/vegans/animal rights activists/animal welfare activists be influenced by your opinions on PETA! Most of the vegetarians I know, myself included, can't stand PETA. They do us all a disservice; because they are so vocal people tend to think they speak for all of us and that is definitely not true!


i didn't think your post was rude at all....sorry if mine seemed abrupt.

i guess i'm empathic to the living breathing earth.....i hate to say what is now so trite, but i feel one with the universe...and i see the universe as a living breathing organism.

i still don't have guilt tho LOL --- be it plant, fish, fowl, or meat, or reptile. especially reptiles. 

i think killing or ending the cycle of life is not the same as murder, which has morality and ethics and peta all over it 

i'm not about peta. at all.


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## RachelsaurusRexU (Sep 4, 2010)

meggels said:


> I'm sorry, it wasn't nice of me to call him mentally challenged.


Hey, nice or not, one does have to wonder.


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## spookychick13 (Jan 26, 2010)

As far as humane slaughter, I know for a fact some people here have let their dogs kill their own dinner.


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## JayJayisme (Aug 2, 2009)

Noodlesmadison said:


> There is no reason to eat meat (for humans) I've been vegan forever and I am healthier than my meat eating friends/family.


The problem with this rather bold and inaccurate statement is that it's based on the assumption that it's the meat that omnivorous humans eat that is causing them health issues. The real problem, however, usually stems not from the meat and fat, but all the non-species appropriate foods in the typical human diet. Vegans always want to crucify the meat, when that is rarely the underlying problem. We are more like our furry canine friends than you think we are. If you want to use anecdotal evidence by claiming you are healthier than your family and friends, I'm healthier than I've ever been since I increased my meat and animal fat intake, and cut all the neolithic crap out of my diet, mostly carbs and processed foods. That includes all forms of soy, all plant-derived oils/fats, and all grains. I did vegan for awhile and I did horribly on it. I lost weight, but it was all muscle. I was still fat. I was horribly tired and depressed too. I think you will find in studies that my experience mirrors much of the population since veganism has become popular. But again, different strokes for different folks. As long as your dog is getting meat, that is the most important thing. :wink:


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## CavePaws (Jan 25, 2011)

I really do enjoy the way you word your posts JayJay.


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## Tobi (Mar 18, 2011)

spookychick13 said:


> As far as humane slaughter, I know for a fact some people here have let their dogs kill their own dinner.


I for one haven't LET him, i was trying to recall him but the drive was far too much apparently, Tobi decapitated a rooster, and i let him eat it... It was by no meas intentional it was a neighbors rooster in our yard, and he to it before i could get to him. It was however very swift, the death blow was dealt before i could reach them 20 feet from me.

As somebody that's killed for my dog I never thought i would be able to do it 5 years ago, i had such a disdain for hunting and anything that hurt animals... I guess as i'm getting older i'm understanding the food chain a bit more. I researched about the best ways to dispatch a rabbit for a few months before deciding to pick one up and do it. We are wanting to raise 3 rabbits for breeding meat stock starting in the spring, so i had to start learning now if i could indeed kill them swiftly and painlessly before we started having rabbits coming out of our ears.

The first thing in my life I've ever killed with my own two hands was a rabbit for my dog, it was quick, it was painless, and i did shed a tear for it... I plan on doing this for my family as well for meat.


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## CorgiPaws (Mar 31, 2009)

spookychick13 said:


> As far as humane slaughter, I know for a fact some people here have let their dogs kill their own dinner.


I don't see anything wrong with it, if the animal is capable of doing it relatively quickly. 
I have no issues with the circle of life, and while I will always give a quick humane death to anything that dies at my hands, Champ was just as quick with rabbits as I could ever hope to be. Some of my dogs don't "get it" and I'd never let them try to kill their own prey because I know they would not be nearly as fast as I'd like about it. 

My dogs all coexist with other animals just fine. We have cats, and have pet sat a friend's pair of ferrets a number of times, and I used to watch another friend's two rabbits when she would go out of town before she moved. My dogs have never tried to harm them.


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## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

I used to have dogs that killed rabbits and other small animals almost every day. It's what they do. People shouldn't try to humanize dogs by questioning those kinds of activities. 

I think what cats do to mice and birds is horrifyingly disgusting and cruel, but they were made that way, probably to perform some funtion at one time.

If animals were incapable of killing for food, we wouldn't be here - we would only be some 1 cell creatures floating in goo.


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## spookychick13 (Jan 26, 2010)

Catching and killing a wild animal is different to me than getting a domesticated rabbit, or whatever, and letting your dog 'have at it'.

If they do it on their own, so be it.


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## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

One thing that used to disturb me quite a bit were neighbors we had that corn-fed deer all year round, and then as soon as deer season opened they shot them from their back porch. I didn't think that was very sporting. It wasn't cruel but it didn't seem very fair.


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## Dude and Bucks Mamma (May 14, 2011)

Porphyria said:


> Dude and Buck's Mama, please don't let your views on vegetarians/vegans/animal rights activists/animal welfare activists be influenced by your opinions on PETA! Most of the vegetarians I know, myself included, can't stand PETA. They do us all a disservice; because they are so vocal people tend to think they speak for all of us and that is definitely not true!


NO! Not at all! I believe they do as well. I think they are a big reason why vegans/vegetarians/etc have such a bad reputation. My uncle is a vegan and I grew up being around their family almost every weekend. I think they go about it all wrong. I have a few vegetarian friends as well as a cousin and while I think it's weird, you all think it's weird that we eat meat. Not everyone has the same opinion. I LOVE horses. My neighbor is terrified of them. Opposite opinions, but I love her to death. It's what makes the world beautiful. I don't think poorly of vegetarians and the like. Just the ones who go about it in the PETA fashion. I do think PETA is hurting their own cause by acting the way they do. I am VERY against PETA for many things, most of which have nothing to do with their vegan agenda. If anyone would ever like to discuss PETA with me I'd be happy to strike up a conversation via PM! 



spookychick13 said:


> Catching and killing a wild animal is different to me than getting a domesticated rabbit, or whatever, and letting your dog 'have at it'.
> 
> If they do it on their own, so be it.


I haven't read of anyone doing that on here at all. Obviously I have not read every single post of every single thread, but I have read many. I, for one, would not let my boys "have at it" with a loose rabbit in the backyard. For one, I don't think they would do anything as both have been raised around my pet rats. They know that the small furry things are ok to watch and sniff or even bark at when they do strange things, but they are NOT to be touched. I have never had a problem with having dogs and rats in the same house. It hasn't even been a problem with a coonhound. If they were to catch one of the oh so abundant squirrels around here, fine. But I won't trap an animal in with them so they can torture it to death.


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## cprcheetah (Jul 14, 2010)

RCTRIPLEFRESH5 said:


> how would a raw diet help winstons allergys when i dont even know what he is allergic too? chicken is chicken.


MOST definitely. Zoey is allergic to chicken & beef in processed form, but doesn't react at all in Cooked form, she is doing so fantastic on Raw that I can't even believe it, no more skin eruptions, no more itchy oozy feet, no more red/brown staining from licking herself to death. You have to remember cooking changes the protein. Some dogs still react to the protein in raw form, but not a lot do. I know Zoey can't even have a treat with Chicken in it now if it's cooked or she starts reacting. But she has both Chicken and beef on a regular basis in raw.


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## cprcheetah (Jul 14, 2010)

KittyKat said:


> I agree! Those large farms and their feedlots have horrible conditions.... hence I get all my meat from a local butcher who gets his stuff from small local farms.


 They can be horrible. I worked at one for a few months when I was in college, and they made us walk by the cows waiting for slaughter to get into work, broke my heart, I couldn't eat hamburgers for about 9 months after I worked there without feeling guilty.


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## lozzibear (Sep 13, 2010)

Jake has killed wild rabbits in the past, it isn't something I like, or encourage... But, I have had to accept that that is him, it is his instinct and I cannot change that. I will say though, that he kills them extremely fast and efficiently. 

The first one he killed, was RIGHT in front of me... I was horrified, and soooooo angry at him. I couldn't believe my dog, who only months before had been a wee pup, had just killed another animal... That was before he was raw fed, and I totally wasn't thinking that while he is my 'baby' and the softest dog I know, he is still a dog... and an animal, and a carnivore. I still don't like him to chase them, and kill them if he can catch them (which isn't often)... But, it is natural. I do think he keeps them on their toes though, coz some dogs ignore them and some walk past on lead so are unable to chase them, and I find the rabbits can be a bit slow to react at times... they aren't as slow when they see Jake approaching though 

I would never choose to let Jake kill something, but I do have confidence in him that he will do if efficiently. I would also like to add, that even though Jake is my 'baby' he is still treated like a dog :redface:


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## SerenityFL (Sep 28, 2010)

Dude and Bucks Mamma said:


> Serenity, I can't help but feel that you are making this about you. No one here is looking down on you for feeling the way you do. We are all different and there are many different views. There is nothing wrong with that. You are one of those who simply does not like the idea of killing an animal yourself. THAT'S OK!!!  We don't mind. I hate seeing those chicken cages too. It's awful! That is why I hope to one day be able to rear my own chickens so they can scratch around in the dirt looking for bugs and run around flapping their wings and live life like a real chicken SHOULD be able to. Yes, they will end up being killed for meat, but because I was the one doing it, I will know that they lived as stress free of a life as I can possibly provide. Same for any other animals I raise.


Nope, wasn't making it all about me. I wrote that before I saw his other thread in the canned dog food section. At the time of writing my posts, I stupidly thought he was asking a legitimate question. And I saw people calling him out for asking the question. Thought people weren't understanding that some of us are not capable of doing this.

But, after seeing his other thread, made AFTER this one, I realized that those who were calling him out were right, as I said in that other thread to him. Which pissed me off because I was trying to defend the supposed legitimate question when in reality, he was just being a *****. 

To say I'm peeved about that is an understatement.


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## tem_sat (Jun 20, 2010)

magicre said:


> you said it better than i did. i think of the earth as alive and it is. we are depleting it.
> 
> and, whilst plants don't cry or say ow when we step on them, we are killing the very world we live in....


Excellent point. Think hundred year old oak tree or ancient redwood.


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## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

I would just like to note that pet stores say their puppies come from good, local breeders. I'm not sure I would just believe a butcher who tells me he gets his meat from small local farms.


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## Dude and Bucks Mamma (May 14, 2011)

SerenityFL said:


> Nope, wasn't making it all about me. I wrote that before I saw his other thread in the canned dog food section. At the time of writing my posts, I stupidly thought he was asking a legitimate question. And I saw people calling him out for asking the question. Thought people weren't understanding that some of us are not capable of doing this.
> 
> But, after seeing his other thread, made AFTER this one, I realized that those who were calling him out were right, as I said in that other thread to him. Which pissed me off because I was trying to defend the supposed legitimate question when in reality, he was just being a *****.
> 
> To say I'm peeved about that is an understatement.


Well, either way, no worries. Yea. At first when reading his posts I thought the same thing, but quickly realized that he is just trying to cause problems. Eh, some people like to do that. Me... I'd rather try to get along with everyone. You see him for what he is now so... water under the bridge


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## PunkyPug (Apr 4, 2012)

I told my mother in law that i was considering putting Emma on a RAW diet. She told me "dogs don't need to eat meat". My reaction: " ROFL WTH you think those sharp teeth are for?! Lookn pretty?!"


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## Makovach (Jan 24, 2012)

My dogs eat raw. I look at animals as prey. I look at them as if they need to die to fuel another being. 

Do I love animals? Yes. 

If no one/ nothing killed animals the world would be over run and we would all die because everything would get used up and be gone because there wouldn't be enough to go around. 

Its life. It happens. Its what is meant to be. this is my opinion. And i dont feel bad for it at all. I would never feed my dogs differently. 

Besides, meat is in kibble. They just aren't getting it whole. Its cooked and processed, but at some point, the animal was killed and slaughtered to go in your dog food, so its really no different.


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## Sprocket (Oct 4, 2011)

:deadhorse:


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## Dude and Bucks Mamma (May 14, 2011)

Geez! Don't do that to me! I thought he was back... It took me a while to realize that I had read all of this before and that it was from a long time ago.


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## DaViking (Sep 27, 2011)

rannmiller said:


> If one does not wish to educate oneself, then why does one come to a public forum to pick fights?


Because "one" pick fights with PMR'ers and kibble feeders alike... No rhyme or logic.


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