# Dr Tim's Pet Foods



## dr tim

Hello;

This is one active forum. I was wondering what people think of how we constructed our pet foods and if you had any questions. Happy to try and answer any nutritional or other questions about dogs.

Thanks, Dr Tim.
Dr. Tim's | Premium All Natural Pet Food


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## DaneMama

Hello and :welcome:

What kind of Dr. are you?


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## CorgiPaws

Welcome to the forum.

Feedback? You asked... 

Another mediocre-at-best kibble line for the market. Unless there's an insanely low price on it, I can't seem to find a reason anyone would buy it. Your "true carnivore diet for cats" is pretty useless for food, but good for a laugh. The description explains that cats are carnivores, yet the ingredient list doesn't come close to reflecting this. Other foods on the market blow this line out of the water. If this beats the $23/ 40 lbs price tag of kirkland... then perhaps its a good low cost alternative for those in the dog chow price point. 

Happy posting!


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## naturalfeddogs

Welcome! Why don't you go to the intro forum and tell us more about yourself, like what kind of Dr. you are.


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## Jackielyn

Welcome! Well...I hate to be a Negative Nancy but I wouldn't feed this to my dog or cat...sorry  Just a tad grain heavy and other undesirables (ie. dried beet pulp) Hopefully we can do a little educating and help you improve your line!


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## dr tim

I am a veterinarian of 22 years in the small animal world. You sure aren't bashful about giving an opinion, that's for sure.


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## PUNKem733

Well my and most people on here's experiences are that vets great for medically caring for our animals, not so great when it comes to nutrition. And if you really came up with this food, then I rest my case.


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## Unosmom

Welcome to the forum, judging based on ingredients, its not bad, mid-grade when it comes to premium foods, high-grade when it comes to grocery store brands. It would be better if there was an inclusion of fresh chicken, not just chicken meal and herring meal could go up on the list behind chicken meal to increase meat content.


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## Tobi

Judging purely on ingredients as others have said its a nice mid-grade food, i would have to argue that the premium title on the bag is a little misleading, as is most of the other large brand dog foods. Premium to me would be something that was grain free or close to it, and geared toward nutrition and not profit, and by profit i am thinking about the grains and the "meals" whereas many other "premium" blends will have for instance "deboned chicken" instead of chicken meal.

I wish you the best with your endeavor and i hope that it works out for you :biggrin:
OH, no harm meant just an honest opinion, and :welcome: to the forum.


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## Savage Destiny

I'll be honest here, as a pet food salesperson. Its not the best out there. I looked only at the "Pursuit" active dog formula, and its not something I'd recommend for a truly active dog. Not enough meat, and really not "high protein". 

To pinpoint the things I'm not fond of:
-Rice and oat flour. Whole grains are much better.
-On the same note, rice bran. Same reason.
-Beet pulp. Sugary filler.
-"Natural flavor". Really? What is it exactly?
-Salt. Dogs don't need added salt.

All in all, its a little too grain heavy, and they're not even whole grains. Up the meat content, take out the fillers like beet pulp, switch to at least whole grains, and you'd have a nice solid food.


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## dr tim

Interesting replies and I appreciate them. So much is about perception in diets versus actually performance of the feed. We have put these foods through ultra sporting dogs, sled dogs and otherwise, to perfect how they work. 6 years in the making and if you have an active dog, they will work better than anything on the market. But I created them. If you don't have an active dog the same rules apply in how a food is constructed and will definitely benefit the couch potato. Remarkably well, in fact.

I agree with you and the fact most vet's don't get nutrition as they are spoon fed Science Diet while in school. This is what I actually heard them tell us; "Trust us about nutrition and you won't have to think about it." After many years of seeing different issues come across my exam table that could be easily traced back to nutrtion I thought differently and learned and tested it out with my own dogs.

So, as to meat inclusion; to me it is just bullit points on a label, not making a differance with a feed. Once you run a meat through an extruder, you lose 70% weight and it will place that ingredient much further back on the actual ingredient profile, usually a five spot drop. 

Grain free versus grains? As a vet grain free is a hypoallergenic route for diets and is worthwhile for the itchy dog, etc. As a general diet inclusion I am just not convinced on its merits past that but that term has sure caught fire, hasn't it. I am on the fence on this one being real versus a recent trendy catch phrase. I am learning. Please tell me why grain free is so much better than a grain, I am all ears.

Salt, every animal needs salt, simple as that. Too much is a palatant enhancer, definitely, but it is needed, period. Natural flavor is a term for chicken liver digest in the palatant that all companies use. All companies. Beet pulp is a valuable aid in slowing the digestive transit time so the dog can better assimilate the food, i.e., digest it. It isn't a filler, it is a very useable additive.

I have opened a can of worms with folks that have strong opinions. I also have opinions, such as this is the best food out there on the market and one should try something before completely discounting it.

I appreciate your time in repsonding.


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## RachelsaurusRexU

> I have opened a can of worms with folks that have strong opinions. I also have opinions, such as this is the best food out there on the market and one should try something before completely discounting it.


Surely you can't be serious. It's so similar to many low to low-mid grade kibbles out there. It doesn't even come close to the true premium kibbles.


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## Cain

I thought I would show the comparison between Dr. Tim's Premium All Life Stage formula to another Premium ALS formula. 

Dr. Tim's ALS Formula:

Ingredients:
*Chicken meal*, brown rice flour, oat flour, pearled barley, chicken fat (preserved with mixed tocopherols (a natural source of vitamin E) and citric acid), dried beet pulp, *herring meal*, rye, dried whole egg, rice bran, flax seed meal, natural flavor, canola oil, salmon oil, calcium carbonate, salt, potassium chloride, lecithin, psyllium seed husk, dried chicory root (fructooligosaccharides), dried organic kelp meal, choline, dried Enterococcus faecium fermentation product, dried Saccharomyces cerevisiae fermentation product, dried Lactobacillus acidophilus fermentation product, yucca shidigera extract, L-ascorbyl-2-polyphosphate (stabilized ascorbic acid), glucosamine, L- lysine, taurine, vitamin E supplement, zinc sulfate, zinc proteinate, beta carotene, ferrous sulfate, ascorbic acid (source of vitamin C), manganese sulfate, inositol, niacin supplement, iron proteinate, manganese proteinate, zinc oxide, biotin, thiamine mononitrate (source of vitamin B1), copper sulfate, pyridoxine hydrochloride (source of vitamin B6), copper proteinate, vitamin A supplement, riboflavin supplement (source of vitamin B2), calcium pantothenate, potassium iodide (source of iodine), manganous oxide, selenium, calcium iodate, vitamin B12 supplement, sodium selenite, vitamin D3 supplement, folic acid, L-carnitine, rosemary extract.

Other:

INGREDIENTS
*Fresh boneless chicken**, *chicken meal,** fresh boneless salmon**, *turkey meal*, *herring meal*, russet potato, peas, sweet potato, *fresh boneless turkey**, fresh whole eggs*, *fresh chicken liver**, *fresh boneless lake whitefish**, *fresh boneless walleye**, sun-cured alfalfa, pea fiber, chicken fat (preserved with mixed tocopherols), organic kelp, pumpkin, chicory root, carrots, spinach, turnip greens, apples, cranberries, blueberries, licorice root, angelica root, fenugreek, marigold flowers, sweet fennel, peppermint leaf, chamomile, dandelion, summer savory, rosemary, vitamin A, vitamin D3, vitamin E, niacin, thiamine mononitrate, riboflavin, d-calcium pantothenate, pyridoxine, folic acid, biotin, vitamin B12, zinc proteinate, iron proteinate, manganese proteinate, copper proteinate, selenium yeast, Lactobacillus acidophilus, Enterococcus faecium.


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## Caty M

As someone who feeds raw.. I can tell you that that is definitely NOT the best food on the market. Dogs are designed from nose to tail to capture, kill, eat and digest prey, that is, bone, meat and organ. Therefore a processed diet should as closely mirror that as possible. Dogs are not supposed to eat grains (or any starch!) as they cause the health problems you have apparently seen as a vet regarding nutrition.

How can you say that your food is better than Orijen or EVO?

First five ingredients of yours: Chicken meal, brown rice flour, chicken fat (preserved with mixed tocopherols (a natural source of vitamin E) and citric acid), oat flour, dried beet pulp
First five of Orijen: Fresh boneless chicken*, chicken meal, fresh boneless salmon*, turkey meal, herring meal

It doesn't take a genius to know which one is more biologically appropriate. Dogs are not designed to digest carbs.. period.


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## Caty M

Damn Cain you beat me to it. Lol.


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## KittyKat

Cain said:


> I thought I would show the comparison between Dr. Tim's Premium All Life Stage formula to another Premium ALS formula.
> 
> Dr. Tim's ALS Formula:
> 
> Ingredients:
> *Chicken meal*, brown rice flour, oat flour, pearled barley, chicken fat (preserved with mixed tocopherols (a natural source of vitamin E) and citric acid), dried beet pulp, *herring meal*, rye, dried whole egg, rice bran, flax seed meal, natural flavor, canola oil, salmon oil, calcium carbonate, salt, potassium chloride, lecithin, psyllium seed husk, dried chicory root (fructooligosaccharides), dried organic kelp meal, choline, dried Enterococcus faecium fermentation product, dried Saccharomyces cerevisiae fermentation product, dried Lactobacillus acidophilus fermentation product, yucca shidigera extract, L-ascorbyl-2-polyphosphate (stabilized ascorbic acid), glucosamine, L- lysine, taurine, vitamin E supplement, zinc sulfate, zinc proteinate, beta carotene, ferrous sulfate, ascorbic acid (source of vitamin C), manganese sulfate, inositol, niacin supplement, iron proteinate, manganese proteinate, zinc oxide, biotin, thiamine mononitrate (source of vitamin B1), copper sulfate, pyridoxine hydrochloride (source of vitamin B6), copper proteinate, vitamin A supplement, riboflavin supplement (source of vitamin B2), calcium pantothenate, potassium iodide (source of iodine), manganous oxide, selenium, calcium iodate, vitamin B12 supplement, sodium selenite, vitamin D3 supplement, folic acid, L-carnitine, rosemary extract.
> 
> Other:
> 
> INGREDIENTS
> *Fresh boneless chicken**, *chicken meal,** fresh boneless salmon**, *turkey meal*, *herring meal*, russet potato, peas, sweet potato, *fresh boneless turkey**, fresh whole eggs*, *fresh chicken liver**, *fresh boneless lake whitefish**, *fresh boneless walleye**, sun-cured alfalfa, pea fiber, chicken fat (preserved with mixed tocopherols), organic kelp, pumpkin, chicory root, carrots, spinach, turnip greens, apples, cranberries, blueberries, licorice root, angelica root, fenugreek, marigold flowers, sweet fennel, peppermint leaf, chamomile, dandelion, summer savory, rosemary, vitamin A, vitamin D3, vitamin E, niacin, thiamine mononitrate, riboflavin, d-calcium pantothenate, pyridoxine, folic acid, biotin, vitamin B12, zinc proteinate, iron proteinate, manganese proteinate, copper proteinate, selenium yeast, Lactobacillus acidophilus, Enterococcus faecium.


I was just about to post that, but then i hit a weird button, and it vanished. But yes, even if you compare the high activity dog formula listed, it only adds chicken liver. There is no doubt in my mind that Origin is a better quality pet food, and I have no interest in trying something that is sub par to what I currently have. Origin is the best on the market, and while I would really like them to get some competition, this is clearly not it. At least not yet, there's always room for improvement.


Also the asterisks on that list mean those ingredients arrive fresh each day.


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## Jack Monzon

dr tim said:


> Grain free versus grains? As a vet grain free is a hypoallergenic route for diets and is worthwhile for the itchy dog, etc. As a general diet inclusion I am just not convinced on its merits past that but that term has sure caught fire, hasn't it. I am on the fence on this one being real versus a recent trendy catch phrase. I am learning. Please tell me why grain free is so much better than a grain, I am all ears.


Yeah, I'd like to hear an explanation to this too. I don't get why potatoes, peas, or tapioca are any better than brown rice as a binder. I'm not even sure how "hypoallergenic" even figures in when talking about grains, as the majority of allergies in dogs are environmental, and the vast majority of food allergies are due to the protein, not the carbs. I'm sure there are some dogs allergic to rice, just as there are some dogs allergic to peas or potatoes, but the number of grain-free foods on the market is pretty remarkable. I don't understand the point either.


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## magicre

dr tim said:


> I am a veterinarian of 22 years in the small animal world. You sure aren't bashful about giving an opinion, that's for sure.


people on this forum, be they kibble feeders or raw feeders, are pretty knowledgeable what goes into their dogs' mouths....
this forum doesn't espouse the theory that dogs can eat anything without consequence....

so it's not about being bashful...it's more about the people here being very savvy about ingredients in dog food..and, sorry to say, one look at yours.....when i was a kibble feeder...and i would not feed it to my dog for too many reasons to list here.

what makes me sad is that you're a vet for 22 years and in that time, you've not studied canine nutrition which has changed in the years you've been in practise? it's called continuing education..and doctors of all kinds are required to pursue knowledge and grow.

judging by the ingredients in your dog food, i can see that you've not studied canine nutrition adequately to further the health of the dog.....so, are you in this to profit?


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## Savage Destiny

dr tim said:


> Salt, every animal needs salt, simple as that. Too much is a palatant enhancer, definitely, but it is needed, period. Natural flavor is a term for chicken liver digest in the palatant that all companies use. All companies. Beet pulp is a valuable aid in slowing the digestive transit time so the dog can better assimilate the food, i.e., digest it. It isn't a filler, it is a very useable additive.


I'm not going to delve too deeply into the grain debate, as I don't believe that grain is the devil in pet food. However I like to see WHOLE grains, not flour or other grain fractions, and I definitely like to see much more meat than carb whether with grain free or grained foods- and yours definitely seems to have more grain than meat. 

I don't like to see added salt into foods, as you should be able to meet dietary needs without adding in extra salt, as many other premium foods do. And as far as the "natural flavor" being chicken liver digest, then SAY SO on the ingredient list. I loathe seeing vague, easily manipulated terms that let companies put whatever they want in the food. Just because you say its chicken liver, it doesn't mean it is, and the vague term lets you put in whatever you want. 

As far as the beet pulp goes, your excuse is pretty scary. If dogs can't digest the food in a normal amount of time, and need beet pulp to slow digestion so they can assimilate the food... isn't there something wrong there?


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## Ania's Mommy

dr tim said:


> Salt, every animal needs salt, simple as that. Too much is a palatant enhancer, definitely, but it is needed, period.


I just wanted to touch on this one item. Don't animals need sodium? Not salt? Wouldn't the sodium already be included in many of the ingredients? 

I'm just asking out of genuine curiosity here. I truly don't know the answer. 

Kibble sure can be complicated stuff!

ETA: I remember seeing on a news show a while ago that "Natural Flavors" is a fancy way of saying MSG. Is that true?


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## magicre

dr tim said:


> Interesting replies and I appreciate them. So much is about perception in diets versus actually performance of the feed. We have put these foods through ultra sporting dogs, sled dogs and otherwise, to perfect how they work. 6 years in the making and if you have an active dog, they will work better than anything on the market. But I created them. If you don't have an active dog the same rules apply in how a food is constructed and will definitely benefit the couch potato. Remarkably well, in fact.
> 
> I agree with you and the fact most vet's don't get nutrition as they are spoon fed Science Diet while in school. This is what I actually heard them tell us; "Trust us about nutrition and you won't have to think about it." After many years of seeing different issues come across my exam table that could be easily traced back to nutrtion I thought differently and learned and tested it out with my own dogs.
> 
> So, as to meat inclusion; to me it is just bullit points on a label, not making a differance with a feed. Once you run a meat through an extruder, you lose 70% weight and it will place that ingredient much further back on the actual ingredient profile, usually a five spot drop.
> 
> Grain free versus grains? As a vet grain free is a hypoallergenic route for diets and is worthwhile for the itchy dog, etc. As a general diet inclusion I am just not convinced on its merits past that but that term has sure caught fire, hasn't it. I am on the fence on this one being real versus a recent trendy catch phrase. I am learning. Please tell me why grain free is so much better than a grain, I am all ears.
> 
> Salt, every animal needs salt, simple as that. Too much is a palatant enhancer, definitely, but it is needed, period. Natural flavor is a term for chicken liver digest in the palatant that all companies use. All companies. Beet pulp is a valuable aid in slowing the digestive transit time so the dog can better assimilate the food, i.e., digest it. It isn't a filler, it is a very useable additive.
> 
> I have opened a can of worms with folks that have strong opinions. I also have opinions, such as this is the best food out there on the market and one should try something before completely discounting it.
> 
> I appreciate your time in repsonding.


you had an obligation to your patients who cannot speak...to know as much as you can know about what they eat...yet, the ingredients in the food you are asking about are not just average. they are below average.

dogs do not need salt. they need potassium and they need chloride and they need sodium and other electrolytes....they get that from eating meat and bones and organs....

even if said meat, bones and organs are in the form of kibble, the additives, such as beet pulp is not even un necessary, it's extraneous and does nothing for the dog...it's a vegetable...

grains? i agree with savage destiny. if one must use grains, then use the whole thing....

i don't feed kibble anymore and honestly? it's not that i ran to a fad diet.....i ran away from people like you who put my dogs on the worst food ever.....because, see, that was my vet talking who went to school for so many years....

and like you, as a doctor, people listen.....and it's your duty, your obligation to create a super food kibble, if kibble is your bent..

what you did create is, sorry, below average, not to be fed to my dog ever food.

what you've shown me is veterinarians have not grown past science diet thinking. too bad.


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## dr tim

I appreciate your knowledge of dog food and their needs,vitamins and otherwise. But what wouldn't one understand about the process of extrusion, that is, the process of making a kibble? When you put anything through it it will dry out to hvae a moisture of 7%. Thus, a meat will be no better than a meal. Do the math and you will figure out that a meat inclusion on a label will lose 70% of its weight once made into a kibble. This would put the boneless walleye below the vitamin level, pretty low. Why not ues a concentrated meal product that actually brings to the plate the needed proteins that dogs require? And choose a mealed product that is high grade, that is, has very little ash.

I am not going to get into a personal spitting match on the forum. Remember, do you have many of the companies founders come onto the site and ask politely for your opinions? Being civil is a good thing, people tend to listen better.

Continuing education is a great thing, I do that frequently. Our foods were and are based on a raw diet but made into a kibbled diet to closely resemble that aspect of feeding as best as possible. I still feed raw to my sled dogs and recommend that if someone truly wants the benefit of meat, feed it raw to the dog, not a diet that has it in the kibble. That diet isn't much different than a meal type protein. I believe we are light years ahead of Science Diet thinking. You jump to conclusions might fast.

If you want, you can email me privately, [email protected]. Happy to personally respond to each and every one.


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## SamWu1

Dr. Tim,

Your formulas are average but undoubtingly contains some less than stellar components. If it's expensive (over $1.50 per pound), it's stacked up against some competent alternatives that doesn't contain some of the less expensive filler materials in your product.


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## CavePaws

I am also one who is saddened by a sub-par food being created by a veterinarian. It's rather sad that a vet of 22 years does not seem very bothered in learning the natural diet of a canine and mimicking that to the best of his ability (when feeding kibble) to provide what's best for his products consumers and companions. I would not feed this to my dog who competes in "performance" events which require some strenuous exercise, or my dogs who you might consider of medium energy. Frankly I feed them all the same thing because I believe that they all deserve the best food available that will give them stamina, strength, and "increased performance". I've always not really gotten why kibble companies will include more protein in a kibble, particular animal proteins which are a necessary part of a canines diet, and separating them into the "regular" kibble and the "performance" kibble. It's sort of sad a diet with extensive amounts of fillers should be fed to one dog and not another, it's "separate" and "unequal", I think even more "unfair".


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## SamWu1

CavePaws said:


> I am also one who is saddened by a sub-par food being created by a veterinarian.


I would think profit is a motivating factor. Same reason why some veternarians recommend "extra" services everytime you visit.

Pardon me for being too forward but it seems as the prime motive for Dr. Tim to grace us with his presence on DFC is to market his product. Not even an informal introduction before leaping straight to the merits of his beet pulp miracle.


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## Tobi

SamWu1 said:


> I would think profit is a motivating factor. Same reason why some veternarians recommend "extra" services everytime you visit.


:lol: you mean i didn't need to have that $50 stool sample done every visit?


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## SamWu1

Tobi said:


> :lol: you mean i didn't need to have that $50 stool sample done every visit?


That stool sample is mandatory for the livelihood of your dog. Skip one and he will surely perish.


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## CorgiPaws

So, doctor. Can you please tell me how your product that you say is based on dogs being carnivores stacks up against orijen and Evo brands?


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## RawFedDogs

dr tim said:


> I appreciate your knowledge of dog food and their needs,vitamins and otherwise. But what wouldn't one understand about the process of extrusion, that is, the process of making a kibble? When you put anything through it it will dry out to hvae a moisture of 7%. Thus, a meat will be no better than a meal. Do the math and you will figure out that a meat inclusion on a label will lose 70% of its weight once made into a kibble.


WE have been through this discussion many times here in the past. What the proponents of meals seem to keep forgetting is the ingredients in the meal. Meal is not ground up dehydrated chicken. Meal is the ground up carcass of the chickens after all the human usuable parts have been removed. Meal is made up mosty of bone and connective tissue. The meat has been removed before it is ground up. I know this from talking to the people at the processing plant that actually remove the meat from the carcasses.

You see, meat is a the most expensive product a chicken processing plant sells. Meal is one of the least expensive. It doesn't make sense to grind up the most expensive and biggest money maker product in order to create the least expensive product, does it?

Everything you say about meal is correct. The part you leave out is that there is very little meat in meals. It's mostly bone and connective tissue.


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## dr tim

Dogs aren't carnivores, they are omnivores. Cats are carnivores.

I am really suprised by the attitudes by the participants on a so called nutrition site, including the moderator. I am checking out on this site as you don't even try to be reasonable in discussions. You had the founder of a company and a person pretty well versed in nutrition to talk with. I would listen a heck of a lot better if people don't get so mean and personal. The road rage folks have behind the keyboard is sad. Not all vets insist on 50 dollar fecals and all that. Best of luck, and moderator, if you think this has all been about advertising, remove the thread. Maybe you just enjoyed the ravens on the carcass.


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## Jackielyn

You asked for opinions on your food and when you hear something that is less than stellar you get all hurt and run away? People here are passionate about canine nutrition and they are giving you the facts...period...no "so called" about it. There is no discussion because we all know that more meat and less grains (and quality grains at that) are better, it's science my friend. And the fecal comment was just a joke, no need to take it personally. And dogs are not omnivores, if you look in a dogs mouth there is nothing about it that suggests omnivore. Look in a human's mouth and that is what an omnivores mouth looks like.


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## SpooOwner

dr tim said:


> I am checking out on this site ....


Sorry to see you go. I would have appreciated hearing from you about nutrition and kibble production.


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## Caty M

Of course dogs are carnivores. Just because they CAN live off a subpar diet of grains and plant material, doesn't mean they thrive on it.

My cat hunts donuts, crackers, potatoes and cookies. Does this make him an omnivore? No.

From the dentition in a dogs mouth (only teeth designed to catch, kill, shear meat and crunch bones, no flat molars to grind plant material and break down cellulose walls).. to his jaw structure (no side to side movement, plus different jaw shape).. his stomach, which has a much much higher stomach acid needed to digest meat and bone. If you compare that to a humans, well ours is much less acidic than a dog's because we also need to digest plant material. Even a dog's intestines are smooth and short, unlike ours which is long and designed to slow the passage of food through it. A dog's intestines CAN'T be long or the meat will rot inside the animal, causing problems.

If a dog eats grass, corn etc it comes out the other end looking the same as when it went in.

The only people I have seen who call dogs omnivores have been by the vast majority, pet food companies trying to justify the less than stellar, cheap fillers in their foods.


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## magicre

SamWu1 said:


> I would think profit is a motivating factor. Same reason why some veternarians recommend "extra" services everytime you visit.
> 
> Pardon me for being too forward but it seems as the prime motive for Dr. Tim to grace us with his presence on DFC is to market his product. Not even an informal introduction before leaping straight to the merits of his beet pulp miracle.


LOL..ya think? : )


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## CavePaws

Oh dear. I'm sorry your feelings were so hurt. I actually think people were being pretty light on you, Dr. Tim. Maybe you're still sneaking about to see what we're posting, I would be if I were you!

Lol, SamWu, of course it's all about profit. It's sad and ridiculous that a veterinarian is in the position to make a great kibble that he could advertise to his patients, yet instead he focuses on the money aspect of it all and includes crummy ingredients not fit for any carnivorous pet.

Dr. Tim, I'm sure you've extracted teeth from a dog, did any of them have flat grinding surfaces? I think not. Perhaps you should take a closer look into your patients mouth. I'd personally be pretty scared if my veterinarian overlooked the anatomy of my dogs jaws to the extent of claiming that their mouth looks like the mouth of an omnivorous animal.


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## magicre

dr tim said:


> Dogs aren't carnivores, they are omnivores. Cats are carnivores.
> 
> I am really suprised by the attitudes by the participants on a so called nutrition site, including the moderator. I am checking out on this site as you don't even try to be reasonable in discussions. You had the founder of a company and a person pretty well versed in nutrition to talk with. I would listen a heck of a lot better if people don't get so mean and personal. The road rage folks have behind the keyboard is sad. Not all vets insist on 50 dollar fecals and all that. Best of luck, and moderator, if you think this has all been about advertising, remove the thread. Maybe you just enjoyed the ravens on the carcass.


but you're not well versed in nutrition, so perhaps you should be the one asking questions. no one has been mean to you...because, believe me, we could be. if this is not about advertising, fine....but the product is inferiour and we know this because what do you think we do in our spare time....we discuss product, ad nauseum....

as far as road rage keyboard warriors....i'll meet you...we can discuss this over coffee...there is no road rage...you are a pimple on the face of the earth, considering there are thousands of brands of below average dog food.....you are just one amongst many.

instead of coming to this site with your first post being about your product, maybe you could have come to this site and read some of the posts in both raw and canned/kibble food sections to see what we're about. 

no one cares for dogs like we do and we do everything, even argue with passion, to make our dogs' lives that much better....

we've all become quite expert at ingredients, be they raw or kibble based....

and here you are, first post, all puffed up because you're a vet. big deal. i'm a doctor.

what you don't know about nutrition should shame you. and that's not being mean. that's my honest opinion. 

you took no time to get to know us. you just judged us.

your first post made it easy for us to judge you. and you have been found wanting.

and now i'm outta here.


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## MissusMac

Dr Tim, I think your time and money would be better spent investing in more nutrition education and learning more about the raw diet.


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## CorgiPaws

And here I thought we had all been pretty easy on him. 

I even asked a legitimate question which he overlooked in his tail-between-the-legs sob rant.


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## Tobi

dr tim said:


> Dogs aren't carnivores, they are omnivores. Cats are carnivores.
> 
> I am really suprised by the attitudes by the participants on a so called nutrition site, including the moderator. I am checking out on this site as you don't even try to be reasonable in discussions. You had the founder of a company and a person pretty well versed in nutrition to talk with. I would listen a heck of a lot better if people don't get so mean and personal. The road rage folks have behind the keyboard is sad. Not all vets insist on 50 dollar fecals and all that. Best of luck, and moderator, if you think this has all been about advertising, remove the thread. Maybe you just enjoyed the ravens on the carcass.


 I felt that everybody was pretty open minded, but you have to understand you are coming in here asking for an honest opinion on your product... Just becuase it isn't the answer or response that you were looking for doesn't mean that it isn't valid or any less valuable an opinion. I understand not all vets insist on a fecal it was simply a joke which wasn't directed in any way towards you :smile:
I understand your frustration as i would be defensive about a product that i had made as well.


----------



## magicre

Tobi said:


> I felt that everybody was pretty open minded, but you have to understand you are coming in here asking for an honest opinion on your product... Just becuase it isn't the answer or response that you were looking for doesn't mean that it isn't valid or any less valuable an opinion. I understand not all vets insist on a fecal it was simply a joke which wasn't directed in any way towards you :smile:
> I understand your frustration as i would be defensive about a product that i had made as well.


tobi, in another life, i think you should be a diplomat, for what you said was very tactful.

let me ask you, though.....if someone comes to your home, trying to sell you a kirby vacuum, would you not put the
sales person through his or her paces? would emotions really matter? not that he or she would be cursed out of your home? 

what this person is selling is something for which we are paying money and feeding to our most precious of precious animals.....many of us ponder what to put into a kong with greater intensity than what we're feeding the family for dinner...she said, tongue in cheek....

there are so few here who don't love their animals to the nth degree.....as you well know...your dog is magnificent...there's some care that went into that dog : )

i think what bothered me is i think he gave up his right to be frustrated or defensive when his first post was about his wonderful dog food, the fact that HE is a VET, and the one that really got me was how busy this forum is......

and none of us got defensive, when in reality, we should have been pretty insulted by the door to door spam sales person who came here under false pretenses....just sayin'.


----------



## CavePaws

Well apparently this is a "so called nutrition site"...Perhaps our opinions are just less valid or valuable to him now that he knows we disagree.


----------



## Savage Destiny

dr tim said:


> Dogs aren't carnivores, they are omnivores. Cats are carnivores.
> 
> I am really suprised by the attitudes by the participants on a so called nutrition site, including the moderator. I am checking out on this site as you don't even try to be reasonable in discussions. You had the founder of a company and a person pretty well versed in nutrition to talk with. I would listen a heck of a lot better if people don't get so mean and personal. The road rage folks have behind the keyboard is sad. Not all vets insist on 50 dollar fecals and all that. Best of luck, and moderator, if you think this has all been about advertising, remove the thread. Maybe you just enjoyed the ravens on the carcass.


Nobody was mean to you. I'm fairly new to this forum, but trust me- I have seen mean on dog forums, and this thread is downright peaceful. 

You came here asking opinions, and those of us who posted gave you our honest opinions. Just because they're not what you want to hear, that still doesn't translate to being "mean". I didn't say a single thing out of anger, spite, or meanness, I just told you my thoughts, honestly, because I don't believe in just telling people what they want to hear. I believe in being honest. Yet you still haven't responded to my last post.


----------



## SamWu1

bishopthesheltie said:


> If a dog eats grass, corn etc it comes out the other end looking the same as when it went in.


With a lack of amylase and a host of other "omnivore equipment", plant matter becomes a burden instead of a benefit.


----------



## Cain

dr tim said:


> Dogs aren't carnivores, they are omnivores. Cats are carnivores.
> 
> I am really suprised by the attitudes by the participants on a so called nutrition site, including the moderator. I am checking out on this site as you don't even try to be reasonable in discussions. You had the founder of a company and a person pretty well versed in nutrition to talk with. I would listen a heck of a lot better if people don't get so mean and personal. The road rage folks have behind the keyboard is sad. Not all vets insist on 50 dollar fecals and all that. Best of luck, and moderator, if you think this has all been about advertising, remove the thread. Maybe you just enjoyed the ravens on the carcass.


Only cats are carnivores? That is a interesting statement. I would assume then that your cat formula would mimic a true carnivores diet, so let's take a look at your cat kibble.

*Chase Premium All Natural Cat Food*

Ingredients:
Chicken meal, *brown rice flour*, chicken fat (preserved with mixed tocopherols (a natural source of vitamin E) and citric acid), herring meal, *dried beet pulp*, dried whole egg, salmon meal, *rice bran*, porcine plasma, flax seed meal, catfish meal, chicken liver meal, canola oil, lecithin, calcium carbonate, potassium chloride, DL-methionine (essential amino acid), salt, dried chicory root (fructooligosaccharide), dried organic kelp meal, yucca schidigera extract, dried Enterococcus faecium fermentation product, dried Saccharomyces cerevisiae fermentation product, dried Lactobacillus acidophilus fermentation product, choline chloride, psyllium seed husk, L-ascorbyl-2-polyphosphate (stabilized ascorbic acid), L-lysine, taurine, vitamin E supplement, zinc sulfate, zinc proteinate, beta carotene, ferrous sulfate, ascorbic acid (source of vitamin C), manganese sulfate, inositol, niacin supplement, iron proteinate, manganese proteinate, zinc oxide, biotin, thiamine mononitrate (source of vitamin B1), copper sulfate, pyridoxine hydrochloride (source of vitamin B6), copper proteinate, vitamin A supplement, riboflavin supplement (source of vitamin B2), calcium pantothenate, potassium iodide (source of iodine), manganous oxide, selenium, calcium iodate, vitamin B12 supplement, sodium selenite, vitamin D3 supplement, folic acid, L-carnitine, rosemary extract.

And that's just the tip of the iceberg with the ingredients. Your theory on cats as carnivores, and dogs as omnivores is quite ridiculous when your advertised "carnivore" diet is far cry from what it should be.


----------



## SamWu1

I think Dr. Tim was rather ill prepared for such an opinionated audience. He simply dwells in another world than ours, so everything we say will seem alien, even offensive to him. Compared to other products on the shelves of most veternarian's offices, his product is rather good so if that's the only reference for comparison, he's a saint, just not here.


----------



## AmeliaPond

SamWu1 said:


> I think Dr. Tim was rather ill prepared for such an opinionated audience. He simply dwells in another world than ours, so everything we say will seem alien, even offensive to him. Compared to other products on the shelves of most veternarian's offices, his product is rather good so if that's the only reference for comparison, he's a saint, just not here.


I think you are exactly right.

I mean, if my only two choices were his food or Science Diet...then yes, his does seem a bit better. But overall, it didn't look that great to me compared to other brands out there.


----------



## CorgiPaws

PuppyPaws said:


> So, doctor. Can you please tell me how your product that you say is based on dogs being carnivores stacks up against orijen and Evo brands?


No? 
Was afraid of that.


----------



## 3Musketeers

Well... I must say, I *DO* like your "Momentum" and Cat formulas. It may *NOT* be grain free, but let's take a look at the momentum food's first few ingredients:

Chicken meal, brown rice flour, chicken fat (preserved with mixed tocopherols (a natural source of vitamin E) and citric acid), herring meal, dried beet pulp, dried whole egg, flax seed meal, dried chicken liver, salmon oil.

Now, it doesn't have have *ANY* plant proteins, so that's a big plus, and it still maintains a protein level of 35%. This puts it at about the same level as Wellness Core/Blue Wilderness for me.
Whether potatoes are any better than rice flour is debatable.
The cat formula is very similar, so the same thing can be said.

The other two formulas fall at around the same level as mid-grade grain-inclusive kibbles. Not bad by any means, but unless it has a lower price tag than the Momentum and Cat formula, then I wouldn't think it's worth it. If it does it would be a great step up for people who feed stuff like Iams and Beneful and that kind of food.


----------



## dr tim

Wow. I was going to reply to 2 questions I missed but this last reply says it all. I can't believe all the people on this forum are like this. Unfortunate this is allowed.



_** The previous post has been deleted by PuppyPaws, so this post no longer makes sense. Posts like that are definitely NOT allowed on dfc. 
-PuppyPaws_


----------



## magicre

dr tim said:


> Wow. I was going to reply to 2 questions I missed but this last reply says it all. I can't believe all the people on this forum are like this. Unfortunate this is allowed.


doctor to doctor....i know who you are...and isn't it a b*tch when you're questioned? i used to hate it, too...being challenged, made to think, made to reassess, made to look at things from other points of view?

it was so much better back in the day when we were gods....and whatever we said was obeyed with out question.

and now? thirty years later? it's just not like that anymore...the arrogance of medical and veterinary doctors isn't so tolerated anymore.

we have google now and we can read and we can challenge and be our own advocates...and, let's face it, it's not rocket science to look up ingredients....

and who are you, really? no offense intended? a doctor with three hours of nutrition who put together a product....you should be grateful that you brought it here first....you want it to sell? maybe instead of being so insulted and put off....start asking questions...to make your product superiour instead of what it is...

you can believe whatever you want. but start looking up your ingredients, piece by piece....let's get some continuing education going on here with dogs....because it seems, in your 22 years, you've not progressed much...and it just doesn't seem fair that you are blaming this forum for your lack of progression lo these many years.

i am pretty sure that you will leave this forum, none the wiser, and that's too bad...because a good doctor has an obligation to give the best care he or she can and that means opening one's mind and learning about what's right, not what was right 50 years ago when even then, it wasn't right.


----------



## 1605

SamWu1 said:


> I think Dr. Tim was rather ill prepared for such an opinionated audience. He simply dwells in another world than ours, so everything we say will seem alien, even offensive to him. Compared to other products on the shelves of most veternarian's offices, his product is rather good so if that's the only reference for comparison, he's a saint, just not here.


Although I am suspicious/critical of people whose first posts are more commercial than introduction, I have to say I am a little ashamed of how some members reacted to Dr. Tim's posts.

There's a huge difference between "opinionated" and down right RUDE. 

Isn't it possible to DISCUSS a topic rather than INSULT someone? Surely we can put forth various points of view WITHOUT being argumentative or bellicose. Or belittling someone because they don't happen to subscribe to your POV?

C'mon people... we can be better than this...


----------



## CorgiPaws

SubMariner said:


> Although I am suspicious/critical of people whose first posts are more commercial than introduction, I have to say I am a little ashamed of how some members reacted to Dr. Tim's posts.
> 
> There's a huge difference between "opinionated" and down right RUDE.
> 
> Isn't it possible to DISCUSS a topic rather than INSULT someone? Surely we can put forth various points of view WITHOUT being argumentative or bellicose. Or belittling someone because they don't happen to subscribe to your POV?
> 
> C'mon people... we can be better than this...



If people feel its a sub par kibble, why should they not say so? Kibble are torn apart all the time on this forum. Go look at any "is this kibble good?" Thread. Should we sugar coat it just because the make might see it? No. I think sugar coating anything is downright silly. This man, a vet, came to a forum, asking opinions. Had he not asked, many would post questions, or simple welcome posts. If you're going to ASK opinions, you ought to be prepared to hear the good, the bad, and the ugly. 

I quite like good ol Dr. Tim After conversing via pm. I hope he sticks around..... though as both a vet and the maker of a food. he should be prepared for perhaps more criticism than the average members. with titles come responsibility.


----------



## magicre

SubMariner said:


> Although I am suspicious/critical of people whose first posts are more commercial than introduction, I have to say I am a little ashamed of how some members reacted to Dr. Tim's posts.
> 
> There's a huge difference between "opinionated" and down right RUDE.
> 
> Isn't it possible to DISCUSS a topic rather than INSULT someone? Surely we can put forth various points of view WITHOUT being argumentative or bellicose. Or belittling someone because they don't happen to subscribe to your POV?
> 
> C'mon people... we can be better than this...


seriously? seriously? this person's first post is about a product that is sub par. his first sentence is about how active this forum is. a+ b = c. he was here to gather an audience to sell his product.

that alone is rude.

WE can be better. i'm sorry, but you and i are going to have to agree to disagree with this one. i will admit that we are blunt and a no nonsense group and very to the point....but no....not rude. not this time.


----------



## GermanSheperdlover

Ania's Mommy said:


> I just wanted to touch on this one item. Don't animals need sodium? Not salt? Wouldn't the sodium already be included in many of the ingredients?
> 
> I'm just asking out of genuine curiosity here. I truly don't know the answer.
> 
> Kibble sure can be complicated stuff!
> 
> ETA: I remember seeing on a news show a while ago that "Natural Flavors" is a fancy way of saying MSG. Is that true?


Dogs do need salt. Kelp would be the best form, but in most dog foods in comes in the form of salt, choline chloride or sodium selenite. Sodium selenite is the worst of the bunch. I really doubt that their is any dog foods made today that doesn't contain some sort of salt.

Dr Tims product is better than it was a year ago and I was very happy to see him remove Menadione Sodium Bisulfate/menadione dimethylpyrimidinol bisulfite. As just a little side note, their really isn't anything better than Oatmeal and brown rice, besides meat of course. With only 2 ingredients before the first fat I would think this cantains a pretty good amount of meat and 3 of the first 4 are a meat in some form. This is the Pursuit and as you all know the low ash chicken is much easier to digest than any other kind of chicken. I would first like to see the sodium selenite replaced..The biggest change I would like to see would be with replacing rice flour with oatmeal, brown rice or sweet potatoes. Then of course another meat, but then I would imagine that would bring a price increase.

Low ash chicken meal, rice flour, chicken fat (preserved with mixed tocopherols and citric acid), herring meal, beet pulp, dried egg product, flaxseed meal, oat flour, canola oil, natural flavor, salmon oil, chicory root, rice bran, salt, potassium chloride, yucca shidigera extract, vitamins (niacin supplement, vitamin E supplement, d-calcium pantothenate, vitamin A supplement, biotin, riboflavin supplement, menadione dimethylpyrimidinol bisulfite (source of vitamin K activity)), Lactobacillus acidophilus, Enterococcus faecium, Saccharomyces cerevisiae, kelp meal, psyllium seed husks, L-ascorbyl-2-polyphosphate, trace minerals (iron sulfate, zinc oxide, manganous oxide, copper sulfate, cobalt carbonate, sodium selenite, ethylenediaminedihydiodide), chelated trace minerals (zinc amino acid chelate, manganese amino acid chelate, copper amino acid chelate), L-carnitine, rosemary extract.

I have to admit I try to stay away from chicken as the main ingredient.


----------



## magicre

" menadione dimethylpyrimidinol bisulfite (source of vitamin K activity"

it doesn't look as if he removed it at all.

he also has flaxseed meal which is a bowel irritant for dogs.


----------



## GermanSheperdlover

magicre said:


> " menadione dimethylpyrimidinol bisulfite (source of vitamin K activity"
> 
> it doesn't look as if he removed it at all.
> 
> he also has flaxseed meal which is a bowel irritant for dogs.


Did you go to his site and look at the new formula????? This was copied and pasted from this site, which is the old formula, lolol, you and atwood jumped at the conclusion that I don't do my homework...Thanks, LOLOL,,, Nothing wrong with faxseed meal, gotta link proving your opinion??? I didn't think so..But here is a quote for you """Flaxseed Meal is freshly milled to preserve the natural oils and nutrients. Ground flaxseeds have a nutty taste and are a noted health-giving digestive aid.""" Lots of ingredients can bother certain dogs, but this diffidently is not one of them, quite the opposite, lol...


----------



## RawFedDogs

GermanSheperdlover said:


> But here is a quote for you """Flaxseed Meal is freshly milled to preserve the natural oils and nutrients. Ground flaxseeds have a nutty taste and are a noted health-giving digestive aid."""


That quote comes from "Bob's Red Mill" web page. That company actually manufacturers flaxseed meal. This is promotional material. It's like Hill's telling you how healthy their food is for your dog.


----------



## magicre

GermanSheperdlover said:


> Did you go to his site and look at the new formula????? This was copied and pasted from this site, which is the old formula, lolol, you and atwood jumped at the conclusion that I don't do my homework...Thanks, LOLOL,,, Nothing wrong with faxseed meal, gotta link proving your opinion??? I didn't think so..But here is a quote for you """Flaxseed Meal is freshly milled to preserve the natural oils and nutrients. Ground flaxseeds have a nutty taste and are a noted health-giving digestive aid.""" Lots of ingredients can bother certain dogs, but this diffidently is not one of them, quite the opposite, lol...


his name is jon and you act as if we 'fell' for? fell for what? and big deal? it's easily and nicely corrected, not pounced on like a snake to a rabbit.

you posted that he still used synthetic vitamin k. i thought you were being accurate, so i felt no need to go back to his site. now i know better and will make sure i double check everything you say. i didn't realise i was being set up....so you could have a 'aha' moment. hope you enjoyed it. there are plenty of articles that talk about the fact that flaxseed is a bowel irritant for dogs, and you can do your own research. posting a quote from 'red mill' -- sorry, but that's laughable. flax is barely adequate for humans in seed form or ground form, but had you done YOUR research, you'd know that. 

your whole attitude when you post is enough to give a person a stroke and i already did that last week. don't need another one. i really really think you need to back on your meds.

so, what i'm going to do, so that bill and linsey and jon and natalie don't yell at me is this.

i'm going back to eating my scone and drinking my tea.

i will be saddened that you are not only ignorant, but your tone of voice is about as sarcastic and condescending as they come.

i will no longer read anything you post, for you take up space best given to others with half a brain, which, unfortunately you do not have.

become kinder and less obnoxious, and perhaps i will listen to what you have to say. until than, ta.


----------



## jdatwood

magicre said:


> his name is jon
> 
> so, what i'm going to do, so that bill and linsey and jon and natalie don't yell at me is this.


Thanks Re :wink: I hate when people resort to addressing people by their last name. It disrespectful (unless I've done time in the military with you)

I won't yell at you. I retired as a moderator long ago. I'm a lowly member like you :biggrin:


----------



## magicre

yes, jon, but there are others....

btw, i agree. calling people by their last name, add that to the flavour of the post and nothing good comes out of it.


----------



## dr tim

Alright, I will try again.

First, I have been making foods for 6 years and it took 6 plants that could make the food as I requested and consistently. We had one plant include parts of rubber in it, another full of feathers. Another got a Walmart deal and dropped their quality of ingredients and it showed right away. Current plant is very good and consistent with processing and acquiring the ingredients. I have watched it being made.

As to nutrition I have worked with sporting dogs for 18 years now, competed with my own around the globe and am well past the 3 hour mark of learning about nutrition. I have learned from nutritionists and real time sporting dog owners from around the globe and consistently look to further my understanding. As a doctor you won't find another vet more commited than me, period. My ego doesn't get in my way, I have done this since I was a kid.

Not all folks can do raw. I do raw with the kibble, many on the forum do all raw-I think that is great. But many folks can't do it, lose interest/time/etc. It is labor intensive. Shoot, I have done raw for 18 years for 30 or more dogs twice daily. I understand that end of things. 1000 lbs of beef a month I would go through.

But, with the realization that folks can't all do that ultimately best diet(raw) I devised a kibbled diet to reflect what I believe to be the closest possible without window dressing, I.e., fluff ingtredients that I don't see as beneficial unless you use enough of them. Often enough means adding it extra to the main meal. Meat should be done this way. Until a better extrusion method is realized/created, inclusion of real, raw meat into an extruder is no different than a high quality, low ash meal. To me it is actually less beneficial, in most cases( a few companies excluded) and is primarily used for marketing. That isn't right and I won't do that. Meat inclusion labeling is highly misleading to the everyday consumer.

So, I have big shoulders and am a big boy. I can take criticism and opinions, let's just be civil. Maybe civil to one isn't civil to another. talking in person to groups I will answer many questions like ones that have been brought forth but it is much more personal and the tone can be understood much easier. I could have been guilty of reacting too quickly but there were several posts that have been removed that were downright offensive. I am glad the moderator agreed and have enjoyed talking with her via PM.

If folks want to email me directly, please do; [email protected]. Otherwise I will offer thoughts now and then. I am trying to make a food that truly benefits the dogs and I learn from all venues of dog owners and professionals; mushers, hunting dog owners, house pet, scientists, vets, etc.

Folks wouldn't be part of a forum like this if they didn't have a common thread to begin with; they love their dogs.


----------



## GermanSheperdlover

RawFedDogs said:


> That quote comes from "Bob's Red Mill" web page. That company actually manufacturers flaxseed meal. This is promotional material. It's like Hill's telling you how healthy their food is for your dog.



Ya just like p & g. And if it is an untrue statement *prove it*. But you can't, just like many of the other statements posted here, no links no facts, just people stating their opinion, thinking that their opinions are facts !!!!!!!!!! Opinions are great, but they can be really bad if someone truly believes that their opinion is a fact.


----------



## jdatwood

GermanSheperdlover said:


> Ya just like p & g. And if it is an untrue statement *prove it*. But you can't, just like many of the other statements posted here, no links no facts, just people stating their opinion, thinking that their opinions are facts !!!!!!!!!! Opinions are great, but they can be really bad if someone truly believes that their opinion is a fact.


What facts have you brought to the discussion? Marketing material from a website selling a product? You surely can do better than that...

I wasn't even involved in this thread. Not sure why you felt the need to drag me into it with your petty insult attempt


----------



## GermanSheperdlover

It really is odd to me that some of you have bashed this product without even going to his site. LOL, would I feed this product, NO. But even Dr Tim will tell ya I have helped change his product and before I ever bash any product, I look much deeper into that product, much further than the ingredient list. And going to that products web site is the very first step.


----------



## jdatwood

GermanSheperdlover said:


> It really is odd to me that some of you have bashed this product without even going to his site. LOL, would I feed this product, NO. But even Dr Tim will tell ya I have helped change his product and before I ever bash any product, I look much deeper into that product, much further than the ingredient list. And going to that products web site is the very first step.


I went to the site. It's an average food. Nuff said

You helped him change it? LOL... I'll hold my tongue on that statement

I'm not sure how "going to that products website" is looking deeper into a product. Do you know anything about marketing? Copywriting? The website is a giant ad for a product. That's like saying that watching Pedigree ads on TV helps me know more about the product.


----------



## SamWu1

GermanSheperdlover said:


> Nothing wrong with flaxseed meal, gotta link proving your opinion??? I didn't think so..But here is a quote for you """Flaxseed Meal is freshly milled to preserve the natural oils and nutrients.


I too have a done a ton of research and I know you want the best for your beloved companion so I wanted to share something with you regarding Flaxseed and its bioavalibility for dogs. 

Flax does indeed contain omega-3 fatty acids, the issue with flax as well as other plant-based sources is that they are in the form of *alpha-linolenic acid or simply ALA*. It has been shown that dogs have difficulty coverting ALA to a usable form of omega-3's thus flax has poor bioavalibility. 

Just as there are two types of vitamin A, active vitamin A, which is found in animal sources and beta carotene, which is famously in carrots. That's the reason I question the knowledge of petfood makers that put flaxseed oil in the kibble and emphasize in bold letters on the bag saying it contains omega-3's from flax, I'd much prefer fish oil which the better foods contain I.E. Champion. Keep in mind I do not feed kibble so my opinion is unbiased.


----------



## GermanSheperdlover

Here, not just my opinion.

Flax Seed As Digestive and Constipation Treatment

girls 

How to Use Flaxseed for Menopause Relief | eHow.com

Spectrum Organics - Products - Flax Fiber Prebiotic

Spectrum | Flaxseed and Fiber - Rich in Omega-3 and Lignans

Enough said !!!!! I really do read quite a bit more than you might have guessed.


----------



## RachelsaurusRexU

GermanSheperdlover said:


> It really is odd to me that some of you have bashed this product without even going to his site. LOL, would I feed this product, NO. But even Dr Tim will tell ya I have helped change his product and before I ever bash any product, I look much deeper into that product, much further than the ingredient list. And going to that products web site is the very first step.


If it has shoddy ingredients there's absolutely no need to look any further. 

Boy, you're a very combative person, aren't you?! What the heck is that all about?


----------



## jdatwood

RachelsaurusRexU said:


> If it has shoddy ingredients there's absolutely no need to look any further.
> 
> Boy, you're a very combative person, aren't you?! What the heck is that all about?


We're all still trying to figure it out.....


----------



## GermanSheperdlover

RachelsaurusRexU said:


> If it has shoddy ingredients there's absolutely no need to look any further.
> 
> Boy, you're a very combative person, aren't you?! What the heck is that all about?


 I not combative at all, except when people state opinions as facts and bash something they know so little about. Their is nothing shoddy about this product, shoddy is p & g. I would guess Dr Tim uses much higher quality suppliers than many products that are made out of house or owned by large corporations.

Have a good day some of us have work to do...


----------



## jdatwood

GermanSheperdlover said:


> Here, not just my opinion.
> 
> Flax Seed As Digestive and Constipation Treatment


This is a marketing article submitted to EzineArticles.com by a company SELLING FLAX. I don't see any mention of dogs/cats in it???




GermanSheperdlover said:


> How to Use Flaxseed for Menopause Relief | eHow.com


I thought we were talking about dogs here?? Not Menopause in humans??



GermanSheperdlover said:


> Spectrum Organics - Products - Flax Fiber Prebiotic


MORE marketing material from a company SELLING Flax. Is this what you call research? Reading marketing material written by professional copywriters?



GermanSheperdlover said:


> Spectrum | Flaxseed and Fiber - Rich in Omega-3 and Lignans


even more marketing... great research!



GermanSheperdlover said:


> Enough said !!!!! I really do read quite a bit more than you might have guessed.


You did a great job researching copywriting. What'd you learn? They sure seem to have sold you with their ads.




GermanSheperdlover said:


> shoddy is p & g.


What FACTS do you have to support this statement?



GermanSheperdlover said:


> I would guess Dr Tim uses much higher quality suppliers than many products that are made out of house or owned by large corporations.


You "GUESS"? That's speculation, not proof....


----------



## RawFedDogs

GermanSheperdlover said:


> Their is nothing shoddy about this product, shoddy is p & g.


How did P&G get into this discussion? It hasn't been mentioned by anyone but you. If you want to talk P&G, go back to that thread or start another one. You're not looking good in this discussion. I think Dr. Tim can look better and make more sense if you sit in a corner and keep your mouth shut. You are greatly damaging his cause.


----------



## CorgiPaws

GSL: Good Job! You can read, and be fooled by marketing propaganda! Corporate America loves you!!!! Next are you going to come back to tell us that Dog Chow can make our dogs live longer, too? There's "studies" and "proof" of it, after all... and isn't that all you need? science. Studies. Proof. You eat that right up, dont'cha?
You love "science" and "proof" SO much... yet you site companies that MAKE MONEY OFF OF selling flax as "proof" that flax is good for dogs. Silly, silly GSL.


----------



## SamWu1

GermanSheperdlover said:


> Here, not just my opinion.
> 
> Flax Seed As Digestive and Constipation Treatment
> 
> girls
> 
> How to Use Flaxseed for Menopause Relief | eHow.com
> 
> Spectrum Organics - Products - Flax Fiber Prebiotic
> 
> Spectrum | Flaxseed and Fiber - Rich in Omega-3 and Lignans
> 
> Enough said !!!!! I really do read quite a bit more than you might have guessed.


I'm not arguing the merits of flax with humans, just with dogs. I have a large bottle of flaxseed gelcaps that my gf consumes on a daily basis. The carnivore vs. omnivore debate rages on.


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## AmeliaPond

I am going to be switching my dog to Wellness Core (original) and it has flaxseed. So that's bad? What effect could it have on my dog?

ETA - I just looked and her current food has it too. So I guess it won't change things much for her.


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## Caty M

I don't think flax for dogs is good or bad. I don't think it's all that useable.. kind of like how Orijen uses flowers and dandelions.. pretty on the bag? yes. Helpful or necessary? no.

GSL people would have more respect for your opinion if you didn't get so argumentative. Even in threads where there is no arguing at all you bring posts like "Don't listen to all the raw feeders here, there is NO proof that raw is better than kibble, NONE." then you complain when raw people post in the kibble forums. It's ridiculous, immature, and unnecessary. It gets in the way when people are trying to have a friendly and informative debate. And then you wonder why people get defensive.

If you state your opinion, do it without sounding like an outrageous angry person. Everyone else can handle doing it, so can you.

In any case, ingredients are the first thing I look at.. I try as a human to eat whole foods not processed refined partial grains. I do the same for my dog. It's like eating Kraft Dinner along with a vitamin pill.. yes it might have all your B vitamins etc but it's still NOT healthy. And you can tell that by reading the ingredients.. Real food that is biologically appropriate all the way.


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## Jackielyn

This is the part where we walk around in circles, covering our mouths saying "oooohhhhh snap!" :heh:


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## Serendipity

GermanSheperdlover said:


> Ya just like p & g. And if it is an untrue statement *prove it*. But you can't, just like many of the other statements posted here, no links no facts, just people stating their opinion, thinking that their opinions are facts !!!!!!!!!! Opinions are great, but they can be really bad if someone truly believes that their opinion is a fact.


But, you don't have any facts either; it's just your opinion vs someone else's.


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## sassymaxmom

Probably funded by some dog food company but a little more scientific.
Revista Brasileira de Zootecnia - Essential fatty acid metabolism in dogs and cats
"Skin and hair coat:
The first study we conducted compared supplementation of a complete and balanced commercial, dry-extruded type diet using whole ground sunflower seed (rich in omega-6 linoleic acid, LA) with whole ground flaxseed (rich in omega 3, ALA) (17). Two groups of dogs were fed a commerical diet supplemented with the respective ground oilseeds (3% by weight) for 84 days. Blood samples were obtained and plasma fatty acid profiles of phospholipid fractions were determined. The sunflower diet contained 9.3 % of calories as LA and 0.4 % calories as ALA while the flaxseed diet had 7.3% of calories as LA and 2.5% of calories as ALA. Results showed a rapid accumulation of EPA (at 4 days) reaching a steady state plasma concentration at 28 days. In addition, docosapentaenoic acid (22:5n-3, DPA) a DHA precursor was also found. However, no accumulation of DHA was seen. *This study was the first to establish that EPA could be synthesized by dogs after ALA feeding although the amount of conversion appeared small.* Additional questions remained, however, such as whether the derived EPA might help modify the inflammatory response or whether skin and hair coat benefits might exist. "

I like google scholar. There is even better stuff in the article and it has links for further reading.


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## MissusMac

PuppyPaws said:


> GSL: Good Job! You can read, and be fooled by marketing propaganda! Corporate America loves you!!!! Next are you going to come back to tell us that Dog Chow can make our dogs live longer, too? There's "studies" and "proof" of it, after all... and isn't that all you need? science. Studies. Proof. You eat that bulls**t right up, dont'cha?
> You love "science" and "proof" SO much... yet you site companies that MAKE MONEY OFF OF selling flax as "proof" that flax is good for dogs. Silly, silly GSL.


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## Serendipity

I know you really admire Champion Petfoods, GSL. I do, too. 

So maybe you'll listen to their Whitepaper, which also puts down flax, right on page 8: 

"Plant source Omega-3 is ALA, a short-chain
omega-3 found in soy, canola oil and *flax*.
ALA must be converted to EPA and DHA to
be of any nutritional benefit to a dog or cat.
As cats and dogs are not adapted to create
this conversion, ALA Omega-3 from plants is
considered ‘inactive’ and not Biologically
Appropriate for dogs and cats."

http://orijen.ca/downloads/ORIJEN_White_Paper.pdf

Sure, flax omega 3's are good for people. We are omnivores. It isn't bad for dogs either. However, it doesn't benefit them.


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## DaneMama

dr tim said:


> Alright, I will try again.


Its always good to give things another shot :wink:



> Not all folks can do raw. I do raw with the kibble, many on the forum do all raw-I think that is great. But many folks can't do it, lose interest/time/etc. It is labor intensive. Shoot, I have done raw for 18 years for 30 or more dogs twice daily. I understand that end of things. 1000 lbs of beef a month I would go through.


I didn't realize you fed raw at all. Do you still give raw to your dogs currently?

I don't think the idea of "not all people can do raw" is enough of a justification to produce a sub par kibble. Why not strive for something better?



> But, with the realization that folks can't all do that ultimately best diet(raw) I devised a kibbled diet to reflect what I believe to be the closest possible without window dressing, I.e., fluff ingtredients that I don't see as beneficial unless you use enough of them. Often enough means adding it extra to the main meal. Meat should be done this way. Until a better extrusion method is realized/created, inclusion of real, raw meat into an extruder is no different than a high quality, low ash meal. To me it is actually less beneficial, in most cases( a few companies excluded) and is primarily used for marketing. That isn't right and I won't do that. Meat inclusion labeling is highly misleading to the everyday consumer.


I'm confused. You said earlier that you feel that the food you've created is the best thing out there. Now you think a raw diet is best? Why not create a commercial raw diet at least?

I'm also confused as to how you think your kibble best reflects a raw diet. Its pretty far from what I would consider even a good kibble, let alone one that closely resembles what a dog should eat. 

By fluff ingredients do you mean fancy fruits, veggies, spices, herbs and the like? I consider "fluff" ingredients as cheap fillers, like rice and corn among others...things that are added into processed diets to increase one thing: profits. 



> So, I have big shoulders and am a big boy. I can take criticism and opinions, let's just be civil. Maybe civil to one isn't civil to another. talking in person to groups I will answer many questions like ones that have been brought forth but it is much more personal and the tone can be understood much easier. I could have been guilty of reacting too quickly but there were several posts that have been removed that were downright offensive. I am glad the moderator agreed and have enjoyed talking with her via PM.


"Civil" on this forum means the following: NO name calling and NO foul language and NO overly hurtful statements. Hurtful statements are hard to judge, because of what an individual finds hurtful. So this is hard to moderate, but we do a really good job here.




> Folks wouldn't be part of a forum like this if they didn't have a common thread to begin with; they love their dogs.


You are exactly right...and we sometimes let the love we have for our pets get the best of us. Lots of passionate but serious people here. Don't take that lightly....


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## Unosmom

It always amazes me how much people love to debate and bicker over the tiniest details, I'm glad its not in my nature to get into altercations. I for once side with Dr.Tim, he seems like a level headed fella.


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## Savage Destiny

I'm just going to... ignore the whole raging flax debate, since I don't find it completely relevant, lol.

Dr. Tim, I do like hearing that you feed some raw, and I agree that its not feasible for everyone. But I can't wrap my head around the fact that you support raw, then turn around and use very processed ingredients for your food. At the very least, why not go grain free? I'm not going to debate about fresh meat vs. meat meal in kibble, because on the whole I agree with you. But why the grain fractions? Why rice flour and bran instead of whole grain rice? 

I'm not trying to be rude or anything, I'm honestly curious.


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## chowder

I just read thru all 9 pages of this thread and it has been great fun! This is why I still read this board......everyone is so passionate about their dogs and willing to say what they think without being 'politically correct' ! :fencing:


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## KittyKat

Savage Destiny said:


> I'm just going to... ignore the whole raging flax debate, since I don't find it completely relevant, lol.
> 
> Dr. Tim, I do like hearing that you feed some raw, and I agree that its not feasible for everyone. But I can't wrap my head around the fact that you support raw, then turn around and use very processed ingredients for your food. At the very least, why not go grain free? I'm not going to debate about fresh meat vs. meat meal in kibble, because on the whole I agree with you. But why the grain fractions? Why rice flour and bran instead of whole grain rice?
> 
> I'm not trying to be rude or anything, I'm honestly curious.


I'm also honestly curious.


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## dr tim

Reason for rice flour; this is whole grain rice that is ground by a machine that can take it to a smaller particulant size than can the hammer mill at the plant. With high performance dogs, like sled dogs, you want the gratest surface area of all ingredients so we can have quicker digestion. Whole particles into the hammer mill leads to a larger particulant, thus a lessened digestion due to the speed of transit in a heavily working dog. Why not strive for the highest possible digestion of all included ingredients, thus lessening the amount of stool and gas and waste? 

Most foods when folks talk about large stools, soft stools and gas are primarily a direct result of poorly digested starches. The poor digestion of the starch is due to several things, most notably a poor cook method of the grain or grain free starch. The other reason for poor digestion is the fact the food goes through the GI tract too quickly and isn't afforded proper time to get processed, thus the reason for beet pulp inclusion in our foods; it slows down the transit time. I have analyzed the stools coming out of my dogs to demonstrate just that fact. I did my homework and respect the work of some others that have done the same with their research. For instance, most companies are happy with an 80% cook rate of their starches in their foods. What happens there? 20% of the starches can't be digested and it ends up creating gas, causing water to follow the starch into the colon and have softer stools. 6 plants to find a 95% cook rate for our foods, it took me. Not bragging, just trying to do right by the dog. Cook rate means just that, was it heated to a point so it can be broken down by the digestive enzymes of a creature. In this case the cook rate is caused by the extruder at the plant, i.e., the heat of processing, the pressure of processing, kind of like a crock pot.

As to grain free reasoning, I am not convinced the dog can necessarily do better on that type of starch versus rice, barley and the like. One can seriously argue we haven't seen many dogs pick an ear of corn and eat it or dig up a potato and eat it. In either case, it still needs to be cooked for the dog to digest it as they aren't a ruminant/cow and have the stomachs to handle an uncooked starch. But a wolf will still eat the intestines and the contents of a ruminant it will kill.

Why not make an all raw diet to market? Really difficult to do so but haven't thrown that idea out the window with the bath water.

Is there spell check on this darn thing?


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## DaneMama

Getting a commercial raw diet put on the market isn't that hard, it's actually a lot easier than producing a cooked, rendered, milled, processed, extruded, etc kibble diet made from the leftovers and waste from human consumption. I'm not going to tell you how you can do that though :wink:


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## Kofismom

Dr. Tim,
I come to this site because I love to learn, and I respect the knowledgeable posts of the many fine people here.

I do not have a scientific mind, and am always confused about the controversy surrounding what's good or what's bad.

I am new to raw feeding, and I just try to keep it simple.

I tell you this as a way of introducing myself to you as an average pet owner who is "passionate" about taking good care of her beloved friend. I think most people fall into this category, and that few are as knowledgeable as people who post on this site.

I just wish to commend you for your interest in raw, AND for doing what you can to help the average pet owner to do the best we are able to do.

You have my admiration for that. I have spoken to soooo many closed minded Vets who rave about the advantages of Science Diet.

I've enjoyed following this discussion, and hope you stick around. If you ever take up practice in the Hattiesburg area, I'll bring Kofi to meet you.


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## sassymaxmom

Dr. Tim, I won't as I think fresh foods are better, but if I created a kibble I would be using only fresh meats, veggies and grains and baking them. Even if I used the meals and such kibbles usually contain I would stick to one protein, one grain, and one veggie per formula. Since you must use a premix vit/min mix anyway I don't understand why multiple meats, grains and veggies are used in dog foods. It would be a great boon for all those with allergic dogs and those that like to feed variety.


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## kevin bradley

Dr. Tim,

Did you go to MSU?

Just curious, no crazy alterior motive. I'm glad you're out here, frankly.


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## magicre

i am truly glad you came back, dr. tim. i hope you're learning as we are learning.

that we are passionate is because what we do directly affects our most precious animals, our friends...

when i go to your site and examine it word by word, ingredient by ingredient, i am not going with any expectations. i want to be scientific and objective, for that is MY background. 

you have called me rude. i have done nothing to be called that, other than tell you your product is below average and inferiour.

had you not wanted our opinions, then i would have to question why you came here in the first place.

your first post...and perhaps you'd like to take it back and reword it, really gave me a bad taste. 

immediately i was suspicious because the way you commented that we were a large and lively bunch (not quoting here)....sounded to me like wow.....audience for my product.

your attitude was very similar to doctors and vets...that you are the expert and look what i've done for my minions...now praise me.

this may well not be true...but it sure read that way and it only went downhill from there.

if i have offended you, i apologise. i do not take back my opinion and it is my opinion, that your ingredients are nothing i would let my dogs eat....

if you have to add beet pulp to slow down transit time, i suggest you find a way to normalise transit without using beet pulp.

flaxseed is, as i said, a bowel irritant.
that it has some properties useful to humans is true. but unless the delivery system is refrigerated cold pressed flaxseed oil, no one will receive benefits.

chewing the seeds (for humans) won't give the full benefits. mostly most of the seeds are missed in the chewing process and go down the hatch whole and pass right through.

with the meal, unless it's been manufactured properly, it goes rancid rather quickly, plus it has been processed in a way as to work as a wonderful bowel irritant. it does not do a body good.

no one needs flax seed if their diets are adequate.

on the other hand, i will be a lady and i will bow out of this discussion. i do not find you charming. i think you are, as my grandfather says, a snake charmer, and you came to this forum to find customers.

i wish you well and i hope that you grow a tougher outside skin as we have all had to do.

keep in mind. no one approves of the way my dogs eat, except for a few forums and about 18000 members of certain yahoo groups, and the silent ones who we don't know about. a tough skin is rule number 10.

good luck to you.


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## DaneMama

I think I would actually really enjoy sitting down and chatting with Dr. Tim about canine nutrition. While I dont think his food is good, it's still worlds better than the garbage that most conventional vets push. That is at the very least worthy of my respect. Please stick around :thumb:


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## meggels

Dr. Tim,

While I don't particularly care for your ingredient lists, I do think it's interesting that you brought up how the potato in grain free kibbles may not be necessarily better than quality starches such as brown rice, etc. 

That is also something I have been thinking about lately, as my frenchie has been taken off of a grain free diet due to yeast issues and has been placed on kibbles with brown rice, barley or oatmeal. When thinking about it, if I were to have a plate of food in front of me, would I want chicken and potato, or chicken and brown rice? The second option to me seems better and healthier....

If you have any info from a medical standpoint on systemic yeast infections and nutrition, I would be interested in hearing it.


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## dr tim

There are a few ways to find out what a dog is allergic to in food. 1. Food allergy blood test-checks for which ingredients lead to a certain antibody. I use this with pretty good results, some vets don't believe in it. 2. Skin allergy test-the injection of those substances under the skin to measure a response. A good test, pricey and needs to be done by someone that does a lot of them as the ingredients get old quickly. 3. Food trial-did this for years but takes time. Good 4-8 weeks to let previous food responses dissapate. New food is completely novel/new. That is, you change to a food with different proteins as that is what dogs are typically allergic to in a food-the proteins, not the brand.

As to yeast, dogs can be allergic to the normal yeast inhabitants of the skin. This can be tested for as well in the before mentioned blood test, as can an allergy to their normal bacteria inhabitants. I have found these tests very helpful. Thing to remember with either food allergies or yeast/bacterial sensitivities is that these are the dogs with year round skin issues. Dogs allergic to pollen will have seasonal variations with their itch, etc. We have snow here so we see that distinctly.

French bulldogs have that extra skin folded all over the place. I would look at the seasonality closely with her. But if the vet thinks yeast, do a skin scraping and look for lots of yeast. If they find a lot, treat the dog with an antifungal and shampoo for 6 weeks and see if she gets way better quick. It can be as simple as that. But do a skin scraping for parasites and yeast as I have been fooled.

Dogs are allergic to proteins, be it a grain, brewers yeast in the food or a tuber like a potato. I think they are a tuber.

Snake charmer. I like that type of critique. Thanks for the chuckle, but this can be me charming you.


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## CavePaws

Glad you're back in for the count, Dr. Tim.


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## meggels

Dr. Tim-


I think that his yeast issues resulted from a compromised immune system when he had a very bad reaction to his rabies vaccine about a year ago, since then, he hasn't been as healthy as he used to be. 


















I think there's an overgrowth of yeast in his belly which has turned into other things (such as yeasty ear infections, three since May to be exact...). I've been doing a lot of reading on it and am trying to follow their procedures. I had his thyroid checked and the results sent to Dr. Dodd out in Cali. His results came back normal but a "low normal" which is sometimes recommended to treat with medicine anyways. Right now I have him on a probiotic to try to get the pH levels normal in his belly again and I've taken him off of grain free foods as they mostly use taters, and taters feed the yeast quicker than whole grains. 

Le sigh...


----------



## dr tim

Le sigh;

Is he itchy or not? Does he have an odor and/or is his skin oily?


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## meggels

He is itchy. I don't think he's smelly.


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## dr tim

Really look at a yeast skin infection. There are great shampoos with antifungals in them or you can try a vinegar/water mix to bathe him in, look that up. The skin scraping would tell me the most and if there is a sesonality to the itch. Bulldogs can be fixed, that just have trouble being birthed. Cute pictures but the dog looks like we can make em better.


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## DaneMama

Removing the source of food for the yeast to thrive on (ie carbs) would also get rid of his problems, or at least make them drastically better. Yeast thrives off of sugars....cut out the food for yeast and there will be no more yeast.


----------



## meggels

DaneMama said:


> Removing the source of food for the yeast to thrive on (ie carbs) would also get rid of his problems, or at least make them drastically better. Yeast thrives off of sugars....cut out the food for yeast and there will be no more yeast.


Yes, I know, that means raw. But I don't think raw is possible with him, esp not right now due to finances.


----------



## 3Musketeers

meggels said:


> Yes, I know, that means raw. But I don't think raw is possible with him, esp not right now due to finances.


It could also mean canned ;P, just not dry kibble sadly, I mean in that there is none with 0 carbs


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## DaneMama

Anti fungal shampoos and medications are very expensive I know because I sell them at my work...like $30-40 a bottle. 

If you're worried about him swallowing things whole or choking, get a grinder and grind all of his raw meaty bones. Ground things aren't ideal but it's still worlds better for a dog with yeast problems. You can find a grinder for about $30 on amazon that is capable of grinding poultry meat and bones. 

Weston #8 Heavy Duty Manual Tinned Meat Grinder:Amazon:Kitchen & Dining

Chicken is pretty cheap no matter where you live and adding in red meats and organs in once a week would be good enough variety for at least a few months. Eventually adding in more variety down the road. Variety is key of course but I know that a raw diet with limited variety is still better for a dog with yeast issues than anything else that just feeds the yeast.


----------



## meggels

Thanks Natalie, I will look into that. 

When I get a full time job I would really like to try to get him on raw. Right now I am jobless (as of MOnday lol) and moving back to CT, and my mom pays for their kibble, so it's gonna have to wait unfortunately. I'd love to put him on Hare Today again as well.


----------



## AmeliaPond

As far as dry kibble goes, what exactly is bad for a dog with yeast problems? Potatoes? Or what? My dog seems to have a yeast problem on the back of her head. It gets greasy and smelly. We use a medicated bath when needed, but I'm wondering what type of kibble might help. (And yes, I know many people here are anti-kibble but that is what I choose to feed.) We plan to switch her to Wellness Core which I think has less carbs than her current food. Will that help, I wonder?


----------



## CorgiPaws

I don't think that raw feeders are "anti kibble" necessarily. I think that where we seem to have issues with raw feeders "pushing" raw is that often times people come here seeking answers...they're having issues, and they want then fixed. Maybe their dog has diarrhea, or maybe they are itchy. Maybe they have greasy turn sometimes they're under or over weight. Maybe they're yeasty or greasy. Whatever the problem is- they want a solution. Some of these things can be resolved by switching to a different kibble or changing feeding amounts. The thing is though, is kibble feeders often times want kibble questions solved by kibble only....and reality is, many of these things CAN'T he resolved by kibble. They just can't. If you're only open to solving issues with this kibble or that kibble, depending on what the issue at hand is, you will never have a solution. Kibble is the cause of many issues, but the solution to few. And therein lies the downfall of a commercially produced processed diet.

To answer your question... a low sugar (carb) diet that is low in yeast might help. It may not fix it entirely, but it might help. That's about the only move you can make to possibly ease symptoms if you insist on sticking with kibble. For some dogs, that will be enough to battle yeasty for some it won't. Keep your fingers crossed.


----------



## AmeliaPond

I understand what you're saying. I just don't want people to think I'm a bad dog owner because I don't want to do a raw diet. If my dog was extremely bothered by her skin issues, then it would be something I would probably consider (as a last resort.) But she doesn't seem all that bothered by it really. I just don't like the occasional greasy spot on the back of her head.


----------



## DaneMama

No one here is going to think you're a bad dog owner if you dont feed a raw diet. The fact that you are here to learn, which is more than most dog owners out there. 

Are you sure there isn't a bump or cyst that is causing the greasy spot?


----------



## Kofismom

> We plan to switch her to Wellness Core which I think has less carbs than her current food. Will that help, I wonder?


I Kofi on Wellness Core before switching her to raw. It is a grain free, which is good since carbs turn to sugar. 
I am not anti-kibble, but I have seen first hand the advantage to switching to the superior raw diet.
Kofi had no serious issues before, but she was bored with her kibble and she had seasonal skin issues. 
The skin issues cleared up on raw which told me that her immune system had improved. Her teeth are great, she has clean ears and tail pocket (bully issues). Her breath is sweet, her eyes are clear, her poops turn quickly to powder AND she loves her mealtime.
Be careful talking to raw feeders, you may become anti-kibble.......(insert smiley face, which I can't find).


----------



## Jack Monzon

Kofismom said:


> I Kofi on Wellness Core before switching her to raw. It is a grain free, which is good since carbs turn to sugar.


I don't follow. Aren't potatoes and peas (common binders in grain-free foods) also carbs?


----------



## naturalfeddogs

Jackielyn said:


> This is the part where we walk around in circles, covering our mouths saying "oooohhhhh snap!" :heh:


Thats a good one!! Funny Funny!! LOL!! LOL!!


----------



## chowder

DaneMama said:


> Anti fungal shampoos and medications are very expensive I know because I sell them at my work...like $30-40 a bottle.
> 
> If you're worried about him swallowing things whole or choking, get a grinder and grind all of his raw meaty bones. Ground things aren't ideal but it's still worlds better for a dog with yeast problems. You can find a grinder for about $30 on amazon that is capable of grinding poultry meat and bones.
> 
> Chicken is pretty cheap no matter where you live and adding in red meats and organs in once a week would be good enough variety for at least a few months. Eventually adding in more variety down the road. Variety is key of course but I know that a raw diet with limited variety is still better for a dog with yeast issues than anything else that just feeds the yeast.


I have some first hand knowledge of this topic. We went ahead and got a really good grinder since we knew that Chelsy was going to be unable to chew on bones. We had gotten a small electric grinder and it had a horrific time trying to grind up chicken and died after one try. I just figured the cost of the grinder would be paid back really quickly in the reduced vet bills and the decrease in cost between raw chicken vs Orijen or Evo. ( I still have one of those $35 bottles of special shampoo from the vets!! Haven't used it since we changed the food). The ground food is really easy to pack in tupperware and store in a little freezer so I really don't have an excuse to buy kibble anymore :smile:

If you go for a grinder, the Weston is the only brand that doesn't void it's warranty if you grind bones. We got ours cheapest thru Buy.com via Amazon.


----------



## meggels

Jack Monzon said:


> I don't follow. Aren't potatoes and peas (common binders in grain-free foods) also carbs?


Yes, and higher on the glycemic index compared to quality whole grains.


----------



## 3Musketeers

I'm not anti-kibble either, heck, I have to recommend it all the time at work, and a lot of times people aren't willing to pay "that much more" so I usually have to settle for decent grain-inclusive ones, xD.
Aww man and if you see some of the faces I've gotten when recommending the pre-made raw-meat rolls, oh gawd I fail at life.

But maybe adding canned (95% meat kinds) or a bit of fresh meat a few times a week or even once a week might help out with the yeast :biggrin:.


----------



## dr tim

I am trying to understand why a raw diet, I assume with no carbs but what is in the meat, would lead to decreased yeast issues directly. If this isn't an allergy issue( to brewers yeast or another protein that leads to an itch, then a secondary yeast infection from the scratching by the dog) why would yeast depopulate with this change in diet? Is it a change in the pH of the skin or are some saying it is only due to the immune system getting stronger, thus being able to fend off infections better? Or both?


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## 3Musketeers

I think what they were trying to say is that since yeast feeds off of sugar and carbs, then eliminating or even reducing them from the diet would cause an improvement.


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## DaneMama

Jack Monzon said:


> I don't follow. Aren't potatoes and peas (common binders in grain-free foods) also carbs?


Yes they are, better quality carbs but still carbs nonetheless and will still provide yeast a food source. 



dr tim said:


> I am trying to understand why a raw diet, I assume with no carbs but what is in the meat, would lead to decreased yeast issues directly. If this isn't an allergy issue( to brewers yeast or another protein that leads to an itch, then a secondary yeast infection from the scratching by the dog) why would yeast depopulate with this change in diet? Is it a change in the pH of the skin or are some saying it is only due to the immune system getting stronger, thus being able to fend off infections better? Or both?


Honestly I don't know the exact answer as to why it works. It may be a combination of those things: increased immune function, slight change in pH, or by removing the food source for the yeast (sugars). 

I tend to think it would be a combination of those all starting with changing the yeast's "ecosystem" by removing the food source. Take away what yeast thrive on (starches, carbs, sugar) and they will no longer be able to survive. With the yeast gone immune function increases which makes it easier for the dog to fight off future infections. Yeast is everywhere in the environment so future infection is a definite possibility. If the dog is not a suitable environment for growth, yeast won't infect the dog. 

Many people who have dogs with yeast issues when switched to raw never again see problems. I for one have experienced this. Emmy would get ear infections every 4-6 months when on a low carb high quality kibble (EVO). Ever since the switch nearly three years ago, she has yet to have a yeasty ear infection. Maybe it's just coincidence but I don't believe it is.


----------



## AmeliaPond

DaneMama said:


> No one here is going to think you're a bad dog owner if you dont feed a raw diet. The fact that you are here to learn, which is more than most dog owners out there.
> 
> Are you sure there isn't a bump or cyst that is causing the greasy spot?


There's not bump or anything where she gets the yeasty spots. It just gets a little greasy and smelly. Thankfully, she doesn't scratch constantly or anything like that. I can't quite remember if it got worse when we switched her from Natural Balance Ultra to NB Sweet Potato and Fish (which has more carbs.) So I'll be curious to see if the switch to Wellness Core helps. (Of course, I'm waiting on the switch until I use up more of the NB that I opened. It's so expensive, I don't want to waste it.)

The Wellness Core has added probiotics (I think that's what they are called) whereas the NB doesn't. Any idea if that could help at all?


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## meggels

I don't understand why a potato is better than say, brown rice and oatmeal.


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## Kofismom

Jack Monzon said:


> I don't follow. Aren't potatoes and peas (common binders in grain-free foods) also carbs?


I should have said that less carbs are in grain free.


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## DaneMama

meggels said:


> I don't understand why a potato is better than say, brown rice and oatmeal.


None of them are good for a dog. Grains tend to be "worse" because they elicit more intolerance, allergy and bowel irritant responses by more dogs than potatoes. They all rank around the same on the glycemic index which means they all create spikes in blood sugar. It all depends on what the dog is capable of handling and tolerating.


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## magicre

meggels said:


> I don't understand why a potato is better than say, brown rice and oatmeal.


neither are better. they are different.

grains ferment during digestion and potatoes and peas are high glycemic starches which cause insulin spikes.

so does white rice. it is also a high glycemic grain and puts stress on the pancreas.

both turn to sugar.

both are bad for animals.


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## jdatwood

I'm curious about something... Dr Tim, did Jess aka Germansheperdlover help you formulate your food?




GermanSheperdlover said:


> It really is odd to me that some of you have bashed this product without even going to his site. LOL, would I feed this product, NO.* But even Dr Tim will tell ya I have helped change his product* and before I ever bash any product, I look much deeper into that product, much further than the ingredient list. And going to that products web site is the very first step.


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## dr tim

No, I do not know who she is. Last fall there was much discussion on vitamin K and I believe that is what she is referring to.


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## jdatwood

dr tim said:


> No, I do not know who she is.


Didn't think so... thanks for taking the time to respond!


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## SamWu1

jdatwood said:


> Didn't think so... thanks for taking the time to respond!


That was predictable.


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## notilloc

Well, I hate to bring up an old thread but I figure this is probably the best place for this and no need to start a new one. I know there is some bad blood in this post but hopefully we can get past that. I doubt anyone remembers me on this forum since its been years since I've been active here but I used to be a regular when I had very sensitive boxers that really struggled with any food given to them. I have an ACD, boxer, and who knows what else mix dog that can eat anything without problem. I like to switch up his food regularly to keep him guessing and he seems to like it as well. He usually gets Orijen, Blue buffalo Wilderness, or TOTW and I've never noticed a difference between the three. He has always done really well except occasional itchyness and he did get parvo which I swear happened from the vaccination when he was very young. Ringo is only 2 years old but he is a great athlete and excells in pretty much any sport I put him in. He especially loves disc sports, but he is a little big (70lbs) to be jumping from my leg and back and I worry about his joints (mine too) with this, even with proper jump training. Recently I have decided that I want him to start ski/bikejoring and mushing and he is beginning to show promise with pulling as well. Of course being an old regular of this site I have been pretty strict with the food he gets with occasional raw weeks when I'm feeling ambitious but mostly just mix it in with dry food (I know I know, different digestion rates) what can I say, I'm lazy. With my intererest in mushing I have been looking into the world of mushing and training tips and advice and as far as I can see most mushers if not all laugh at the idea of grain free and they will almost exclusively recommend redpaw or dr. tim's. The best logical explanation I have been able to find with this so far is that grains will keep an active dog feeling full for longer, not sure if there is any truth to this. Of course most sled dogs get a mix of dry food with raw, similar to what I have done for a while now but I am going to try Dr. Tim's because honestly its cheap, at least compared to what I am used to. I can't imagine the top dogs in the world getting an inferior food. I know they mix raw with it and supplement but they still recommend dr. tims or redpaw over anything else. If it doesn't work out I will stop and go back to what I know but my first bag of Dr. Tim's should be at my house tomorrow and I will try it and report back here with what I find. I will be as unbiased as I can be and if there are any changes for better or worse I will let everyone here know. I do expect a slight bump up in energy levels just because the food is more calorie packed than even evo. Don't judge me I would just love to save money especially now that ringo is getting so much exercise he needs to eat a lot more food, and if it's as great as some of the top tier mushers say it is then I don't think I can go wrong. You will hear from me again in the near future and Dr. Tim I look forward to what will hopefully be a positive review. The way I look at it is the ingredients can only tell you so much, sometimes you just have to try something to see if the claims are true.


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## monster'sdad

Dr. Tim's is recommended along with some other foods that people on here couldn't conceive of using, because they are superior. Plain and simple.


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## notilloc

monster'sdad said:


> Dr. Tim's is recommended along with some other foods that people on here couldn't conceive of using, because they are superior. Plain and simple.


I don't want to bad mouth anyone on this post because they really have given me lots of help when i was completely lost in the dog food world. They also helped me with cheap holistic remedies when I was younger and a ski bum with no money to go to a vet. So I have been very appreciative of the advice and I take their opinion seriously but my interest in mushing has definately made me a little more open minded when it comes to food. Who knows its could go horrible but I really hope things will work out well.


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## monster'sdad

notilloc said:


> I don't want to bad mouth anyone on this post because they really have given me lots of help when i was completely lost in the dog food world. They also helped me with cheap holistic remedies when I was younger and a ski bum with no money to go to a vet. So I have been very appreciative of the advice and I take their opinion seriously but my interest in mushing has definately made me a little more open minded when it comes to food. Who knows its could go horrible but I really hope things will work out well.


Which did you get Momentum or Pursuit?


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## notilloc

monster'sdad said:


> Which did you get Momentum or Pursuit?


I went with momentum this time but if its too much I will switch to pursuit. Ringo could stand to put on a few pounds right now and I feel like he still has lots of muscle to put on. He is almost 2 and very very active (he has to haul my fat butt around and still play frisbee almost every day) so I figure he can handle the higher calorie content food for now.


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## monster'sdad

notilloc said:


> I went with momentum this time but if its too much I will switch to pursuit. Ringo could stand to put on a few pounds right now and I feel like he still has lots of muscle to put on. He is almost 2 and very very active (he has to haul my fat butt around and still play frisbee almost every day) so I figure he can handle the higher calorie content food for now.


and it is winter


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## MollyWoppy

One question I have for Dr Tim.
What is the Phosph level in your cat food? I see by the label it is .91%, but how do I convert that to mg per 100 kcal?
Thanks.


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## dr tim

219 mg/100kcals in the Chase cat food.

Hey, I saw something about a liver broth on another thread. What is that recipe?


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## naturalfeddogs

dr tim said:


> 219 mg/100kcals in the Chase cat food.
> 
> Hey, I saw something about a liver broth on another thread. What is that recipe?


That's Liz's recipe, and its somewhere in a post in the raw section. You can pm her and she will give it to you.


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## Herzo

I was just re reading that one the other day. She said get a med size pan fill it with water then put in the liver..didn't say how much... and boil it till the blood stops running out. Then she puts it in ice cube tray's.


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## notilloc

Well..... So far so good, I have to say, I have never seen Ringo get so excited for a food. I haven't even mixed in any raw yet and he still goes nuts for it. This morning as I was scooping it out of his bin he was dancing on his rear legs waiting to get his new food. His poops have been solid even with the transition to a new food. I have to say just based on Ringo's reaction to Dr. Tim's Momentum it could be a good food. I don't want to jump to any conclusions just yet but my puppy is happy for now so that makes me happy. More detailed review coming in a month or so.


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## monster'sdad

notilloc said:


> Well..... So far so good, I have to say, I have never seen Ringo get so excited for a food. I haven't even mixed in any raw yet and he still goes nuts for it. This morning as I was scooping it out of his bin he was dancing on his rear legs waiting to get his new food. His poops have been solid even with the transition to a new food. I have to say just based on Ringo's reaction to Dr. Tim's Momentum it could be a good food. I don't want to jump to any conclusions just yet but my puppy is happy for now so that makes me happy. More detailed review coming in a month or so.


I have friends with large breed sporting dogs on Momentum and I crossed my fingers because it is a 25% fat food. Not one issue with her dogs.

I also have a friend whose bitch whelped 14 puppies and momma didn't lose one pound nursing them, she gained weight actually. No supplements either.

To be honest, you don't need to add raw to that food. 35% protein and 95% animal sources, 25% fat. That is quite a meal.


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## notilloc

Hasn't even been a week yet and I'm starting to be a believer in Dr. Tim's Momentum. Shipping took longer than expected so Ringo only had about 2 cups of his Blue Buffalo Wilderness left so he switched almost cold turkey with 0 issues. Also, his poops are much smaller than they have ever been which means he is actually digesting the food. Lastly, his energy level is through the roof, good and bad because I like to sleep in and he has been bouncing off the walls every morning. I would also like to note that Ringo has never been on a low quality food, he has rotated through Orijen, BB Wilderness, and TOTW since he was 8 weeks. It's too early to call on coat or any other issues but Ringo has always been a really healthy dog so I don't know if there will be any other changes to report. I'm not calling it just yet but Dr. Tim could be onto something here. Ringo is still loving the food and that's the most important part. So far so good, and I'm saving quite a bit of money which is also good.


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## monster'sdad

More claps for Dr. Tim this weekend.

First Place, U.S. Men's National Ski Jour Championship, Mike Christman and his dog Ridge, Second Year in a Row

Third Place, U.S. Ladies National Ski Jour Championship, Linsday Demers and her dog Coolio


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## doggiedad

whatever you do posters don't become "better than this" because being "better than this"
would only serve up some boring, whimpy posts.



SubMariner said:


> Although I am suspicious/critical of people whose first posts are more commercial than introduction, I have to say I am a little ashamed of how some members reacted to Dr. Tim's posts.
> 
> There's a huge difference between "opinionated" and down right RUDE.
> 
> Isn't it possible to DISCUSS a topic rather than INSULT someone? Surely we can put forth various points of view WITHOUT being argumentative or bellicose. Or belittling someone because they don't happen to subscribe to your POV?
> 
> >>>> C'mon people... we can be better than this...<<<<


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## khackett

Hi Dr. Tim (if you're watching). I am just about to place an order for the grain free formula. Everything I've read has been very encouraging. I'm excited for my dog! Considering your awesome transparency, I'm kind of wondering if this is more of a hobby than a business for you, and that raises questions/concerns.

It's kind of a multi-part question, so bare with me as I attempt to be concise. I'm just wondering if the grain free will remain nearly the cheapest on the market, especially considering it's quality (i can't vouch for the other product prices). You simply crush the competitors (especially with free shipping on some sites). Do you see this as being sustainable (or even as a priority) as you mature as a company? Related to this, do you see your company as a kibble leader for years to come as the opportunity presents? 

These questions stem from my own experience seeing the dog food brands I purchase change ownership, quality, and price - not in a good way. I don't expect you to entirely predict the future, and realize you're in business, but my hope is this kibble will be fantastic for my dog for years to come, while not seeing Dr. Tim's sell out to Diamond or Wellpet and hike prices 25%. I'm fairly certain you would still be able to sell at that price!

Thanks for the transparency AND for your example on how to be respectful in a forum.


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## dr tim

Hi K Hatchett;

Thank you for your kind words, they are appreciated. Much more than a hobby as being a veterinarian I am in it for the long haul to try and treat the animals as best possible in the ways of nutrition. I can treat many dogs and cats that come through my hospital doors but I can reach many more through the idea of nutrition. When I can positively affect the health of a pet I am doing the job that I am made for. I hope you find the food works well for your dog and please let me know how it goes.

As to the price, yes it is sustainable. Grain frees should not cost what people pay for-the prices seem a bit outrageous.

I would like to look at being able to use more innovation as we grow and build on what we have, always looking to see if there is a better way to do something, a better ingredient and not just for a window dressing label add on.


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## khackett

*kibble size*

Hey Dr. Tim,

Just got our first bag today and started the transition. We are coming off of Earthborn Meadow Feast (9.1% ash), so your lower ash level is at least giving me some peace of mind! One quick suggestion - decrease the kibble size. Earthborn is about half the size and much easier on my old tooth extracted mutt 

Thanks, and I'll come back once we've been on it for a while.

Kevin


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## rescuedoglover

Dr. Tim,
I've just gone thru all 15 pages of this blog. I'm surprised that no one has brought up the issue of the use of synthetic vs. non-synthetic vitamins/supplements in dog food. Has this got more to do with the potential source of the synthetic products(China), or is there a benefit to the non-synthetic products? What's you take on this. Where do you source your vitamins and supplements? Based on my limited knowledge base, I only know of 2 dog foods that are non-synthetic: Nature's Logic(USA) and Carna4(Canada)
Like some I've tried raw. Even with the preformed patties, it is time consuming, not to mention an expensive proposition.
thanks,
Mike


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## dr tim

The use of non synthetic types of vitamins, say sourced only from vegetables, etc., has to do with what is actually present in the food once it goes through processing. Often, non synthetic sources will lose a great deal of their viability after the process of extruding or being canned(tort process). With the use of non synthetic or only natural sources with out added supplementation(synthetic) requires post production testing of the product after each run to confirm what you put in there is still present and has not been destroyed. I would recommend that question being looked into if you do use pet foods, not treats, that have claims of only non synthetic sources. If it is backed up with testing after each run, terrific.


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## Jen1973

*20% off sale on dr Tim's.*

20% off Dr Tim's food today on chewy.com. Great deal!!


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## TB12

Jen1973 said:


> 20% off Dr Tim's food today on chewy.com. Great deal!!


I know! I stocked up & bought 3 44lb bags. My dogs love this food


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## jaber6

Damn, I missed the sale.


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