# Filler Breakdown



## Angela Adams (Mar 27, 2011)

I'm comparing a few kibbles - Can someone breakdown and tell me how each of these "fillers" are digested, or the good and bad about each?

Russet Potatoes
Sweet Potatoes
Peas
Millet
Tapioca
Tomato Pumice
Pumpkinseeds
Chickpeas

Thank you!


----------



## Angela Adams (Mar 27, 2011)

I think I just answered my own question when I clicked on this website... Nature’s Logic Dry Dog Food | Review and Rating


----------



## luvMyBRT (Mar 8, 2010)

You probably found the answer to the fillers you already listed....but, this is a link to a website that talks more about fillers. It lists the things you don't want to see in kibble.

The Dog Food Project - Ingredients to avoid


----------



## Deesters (Apr 26, 2011)

Sorry this doesn't have anything to do with the original topic of fillers but I was reading the sites posted above. 
In the first one it says about Chicken Meal: "Chicken meal is considered a meat concentrate and contains nearly 300% more protein than fresh chicken."
But in the second link (Ingredients to avoid) it says about Poultry Meal: "AAFCO: The clean combination of poultry flesh and skin with or without bone. Does not contain feathers, heads, feet or entrails. If from a particular source it may state so (i.e. chicken, turkey etc).

Note how in this product the source is not defined as "slaughtered poultry".The manufacturer does not disclose the species (or the mix of species) of the poultry used. The fowl can be obtained from any source, so there is no control over quality or contamination. Any kind of animal can be included: "4-D animals" (dead, diseased, disabled, or dying prior to slaughter), turkey, chicken, geese, buzzard, seagulls, misc. roadkill, birds euthanized at shelters and so on. "

I know poultry means various birds, not just chicken but how do I know where the chicken is coming from or if it's contaminated etc.? Is chicken meal good but poultry meal bad?? Does it work the same for fish? Fish meal bad while, say salmon meal is okay?


----------



## RawFedDogs (Jun 16, 2008)

Chicken meal is the remains of the chicken carcass after the human usable parts are removed (wings, legs, thighs, breasts, etc). It mostly bone and connective tissue. Also chicken parts that have been dropped on the floor go into the meal as well as any parts that have growths or other things that make it not usable for human food. Guts & internal stuff is not in the chicken meal. Those things are in chicken by-product meal.

I think any of the meals regardless of the animal it comes from are the left over parts that are not eaten by humans.


----------



## Deesters (Apr 26, 2011)

Thanks for the explanation.
So it sounds like any meat meal is not good... but it's in even the highest quality dog foods...


----------



## RawFedDogs (Jun 16, 2008)

To be fair, it does have a lot of protein.


----------



## sassymaxmom (Dec 7, 2008)

Choose foods that contain specific species of animals. "Poultry" can include turkeys and chickens and so include 4D meats - bad. Avoid "meat" meals as they can include 4D meats - bad. Look for lamb, beef, pork, venison, etc. This renderer manufactures a vast array of products. They used to provide the chicken meal for Orijen at the time of the cat food problem in Australia, don't know if that is still the case. 
Welome to Badger Ingredients


----------



## kiwismom (May 4, 2011)

Deesters said:


> Thanks for the explanation.
> So it sounds like any meat meal is not good... but it's in even the highest quality dog foods...


When you buy boneless-skinless chicken breast in the store, it is mechanically separated from the bone (MSC). The meat that is left on the bone (from trimming process) plus some bone (can't be too much or the ash% is too high) is dried down into meal. Dried meat meal is an economical way to preserve some nutrition and transport the ingredients without needing to thaw out large blocks of frozen meat or transport in refrigerated trucks.

As with all ingredients - pet and human - there are good levels of a product and less than desirable. Please keep in mind part of the meal made from the MCS process is funneled into the hot dog filler market as well


----------



## RawFedDogs (Jun 16, 2008)

You sure worry a lot about ash. In fact, chicken meal is mostly bone and connective tissue with very little meat. Chicken meal is dry because bone doesn't hold water.


----------



## kiwismom (May 4, 2011)

only worry about ash when you're concerned about max limits. *shrugs*

meal is dried down product to <10% moisture - which is why the protein is so high compared to fresh meat and again is why it is so economical when making pet food - you can use less to get nutrients, it stores and transports easier, and makes a pet food affordable to the avg consumer. It's easy to argue that "real" chicken meat is better - but not everyone for a variety of reasons makes their own food. So, for a dry ingredient into a kibble, it's not too shabby.


----------



## OrganicDoggie (May 25, 2011)

Dogs shouldn't eat the trimmings though. Many of these things are very poisonous to their system.


----------



## luvMyBRT (Mar 8, 2010)

^^^^^
Your link "17 dangerous dog foods" is actually very incorrect and misleading.

1. Cat food- really?? I doubt eating cat food is dangerous to dogs.....both are carnivores.

2. avocado- all that shouldn't be eaten is the pit and the skin. The actual meat of the avocado is fine.

3. Caffeine- Yes.

4. Fish- Not true at all. Dogs fed a raw diet need to have fish in their weekly rotation. Dogs thrive on the oils and nutrients from them.

5. Grapes-Yes.

6. Diary- Not true. While some dogs don't do well with dairy and it's not necessary in a dogs diet others can handle it just fine. My dog is an example of a dog that can tolerate dairy.

7. Mushrooms-Yes.

8. Raw Meat- This makes me laugh! Are you kidding me? Dogs are CARNIVORES and thrive on a raw meat diet. Vomiting and diarrhea can happen if the raw meat is introduced in the wrong way. If you believe this, I'd learn more about a PMR diet.

9. Salt-Yes

10. Onions/Garlic- Onions yes, garlic maybe....

11. Macadamia Nuts-Yes.

12. Xylitol-Yes.

13. Scraps of Fat- No way. Dogs NEED fat in their diet. Animal fat is something that should be a part of a dogs diet.

14. Peach/Plum pits- Yes.

15. Raw Eggs -Yeah right. My dog eats these daily. How on earth would an egg cause skin problems?

16. Yeast- not sure.

17. Human Medication- well no kidding a dog shouldn't eat these. Just check with your vet about any medication.

This is just a FYI. I have seen this link before and it drives me crazy. It can lead people who are unaware down the wrong path of feeding an inappropriate diet to a dog. A dog is a carnivore and thrives on a diet of raw meat, raw bones and raw organs. 

Welcome! :biggrin1: I hope you stick around as there is much to learn!


----------



## Caty M (Aug 13, 2010)

LOL that website is funny.. raw eggs causing skin problems? Most people feed raw egg to make their skin and coat HEALTHIER.. dogs, carnivores, not being able to eat raw meat and trimmings? Ridiculous! The same with fish..

I don't know where people get their information.. dogs have been eating kibble for all of what, 100 years at most? And now it's weird to feed them a normal diet.


----------



## jdatwood (Apr 13, 2009)

luvMyBRT said:


> This is just a FYI. I have seen this link before and it drives me crazy. It can lead people who are unaware down the wrong path of feeding an inappropriate diet to a dog. A dog is a carnivore and thrives on a diet of raw meat, raw bones and raw organs.


The Squidoo link is simply a method for them to push people to purchase the "Dog Food Secrets" Ebook. They get paid for every purchase made. This person isn't doing anything but spamming in hopes they get paid. It's sad...


----------



## meganp (Aug 19, 2011)

So then if chicken meal is "bad" and mainly connective tissue, bone and all the things in the chicken humans would not usually eat then why in food like Acana and Orijen does it say made and fit for human consumption? From all of my research and knowledge any meal meats are cooked meats with a lower moisture content.


----------



## RawFedDogs (Jun 16, 2008)

No meals are human quality foods. They are what's left over after the human quality stuff has been removed. Anytime you see a kibble advertising human quality ingredients and it contains some kind of meal, you know they are lying to you. They may have some small amount of human quality ingredients but not many. Human quality stuff sis soooo much more expensive than stuff that isn't. If you don't believe me, go to a grocery store and try to buy some chicken meal. You can't do it. The main reason that meals don't contain much moisture is that bone doesn't hold moisture like muscle meat and fat do. Thats the reason meals are always a dry weight.


----------



## meganp (Aug 19, 2011)

I wouldn't be able to buy chicken meal from a grocery store because it would be cooked meat there would be no point it is not raw its cooked. From what I know chicken meal is ground up meat and connective tissue, bone and skin, they dont contain much moisture because it is cooked, that is why is weighs less and increases the concentration of protein. I just don't think meal meats are bad, they may not be the best but they aren't going to kill or harm your dog.


----------



## RawFedDogs (Jun 16, 2008)

Meat meals aren't going to harm or kill your dog. They just are nearly as nutritious as the dog food companies would like you to think they are. They are in dog food because they are very cheap.


----------



## Caty M (Aug 13, 2010)

meganp said:


> I wouldn't be able to buy chicken meal from a grocery store because it would be cooked meat there would be no point it is not raw its cooked. *From what I know chicken meal is ground up meat and connective tissue, bone and skin*, they dont contain much moisture because it is cooked, that is why is weighs less and increases the concentration of protein. I just don't think meal meats are bad, they may not be the best but they aren't going to kill or harm your dog.


There is a tiny amount of meat, a small amount of skin, and a LARGE amount of bone and connective tissue. Bone isn't bad, but it should not make up the majority of the diet. In a raw diet you feed generally 10-20% bone. Not 60-70%. 

Even if you could buy the raw chicken meal, you couldn't eat it. Unless you like chewing on mostly ground up bone, that is. It's really not that high quality of a product. If you want high quality meat, feed homecooked or raw.


----------



## meganp (Aug 19, 2011)

Wow I wouldn't have guessed it had THAT much bone! So would you consider it to be filler or just a misleading ingredient, I always think as fillers as something the dog cannot digest or digest well.


----------



## PDXdogmom (Jun 30, 2010)

Chicken meal (or any other type of meat meal) is made in varying degrees of quality. I've been on supplier web sites that sell to pet food manufacturers and there is definitely an A level and a B level. I imagine that the lower quality ones have more bone.


----------



## RawFedDogs (Jun 16, 2008)

Why would a dog food company pay the extra money for higher grade meal when there is no way to tell what is actually in their finished product? IF by some chance some do pay the extra money, how do you know which ones they are? How do you know how much better the top grade meal is compared to the bottom grade? The difference may be insignificant. There is way too much secrecy going on with that stuff for me to trust anyone.


----------



## Caty M (Aug 13, 2010)

It's not a filler or a misleading ingredient.. it's just not an optimal one.


----------

