# The Grain Free...Trend?



## Jackie (Jan 19, 2014)

So I know there's a grain free or raw mentality towards dog food now, it's all over the internet and I've even seen a good number of advertisements on television. All of this raises a few questions in my mind. Is this claim that grain free is the only way to go based on legitimate research or is it a new trend? Does a food really have to be grain free to be good? If my dog has no allergies, does it really matter if there is rice or corn in her food? I was told by a nutritionist that it is not a good idea to raise a puppy under a year on grain free food...Any opinions on that? I know dogs are carnivores, but the herbivores they ate had bellies full of grains and dogs also evolved over hundreds of years to approach us humans and eat our scraps which contained grains. I'm wondering if grains will actually kill my dog and if commercial pet food companies will kill my dog...it seems that dogs have lived well on grains for a long time. I honestly can't afford to feed her Orijen, Acana, Wysong, Fromm, Wellness, Innova, Taste of the Wild, etc etc...the list goes on and on. However, I have heard Canidae has quality and economical foods. At the same time, I'm confused because the basic formulas for Canidae contain grains. Does that mean Canidae is a bad company because they use grains in some of their formulas? And aren't all those high end dog foods commercial foods, too, meaning they are also bad (because they are commercial)? I can't feed raw because we will be soon volunteering in hospitals and the program's rules are that the dogs can not eat anything raw within four weeks of visiting the hospital, so that's out of the question. Anyways, any feedback would be great!


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## NutroGeoff (May 15, 2013)

Grains, in general, aren't bad for all dogs. There are, of course, some dogs that do have severe allergies to grains and absolutely must be on a grain free food. Corn, wheat, and rice all meet up with AAFCO standards for dog food. Now having said that, I do generally recommend that you feed a formula without corn and wheat. Dogs can't digest the corn, just the same way that humans cant, and both have been some of the biggest allergy issues I have coke across for dogs in my five years of working for Nutro. I can tell u out that my dogs have been eating Nutro Natural Choice and Ultra for all those five years for the older one and since they were puppies for the two younger dogs. Those formulas both have rice in them. My dogs do amazingly on their food and have been extremely healthy on it. In my opinion, while the grain free foods are also very good for them, they aren't 100% necessary unless your dog does have severe allergies. I generally do recommend either a chicken and whole brown rice formula or a lamb and whole brown rice formula as your first option.


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## Shamrockmommy (Sep 10, 2009)

The short answer to this is: You need to try a food you think would be good and then listen to what your dog "says" in the way of health and digestion once they've been eating the food.

I was on the grain free trend up until just recently. I fed Fromm 4star grain free for the majority of their food. I had issues with stools being soft and large. It's a pain for the head scooper to be dealing with ooky dog poop all the time. I also had some flabby bodies and itching issues.

The thing is, the grain free foods replace the grains with potatoes or tapioca or beans (garbanzo, lentils), which are all high-carbohydrate and fattening for dogs (and people too). 

Some grains are inflammatory and wreak havoc on dogs: I absolutely do NOT feed Wheat, barley, corn or rye. I also do not eat these things myself.
I am ok feeding my dogs rice and oatmeal (small amounts) but again, I do not eat these things myself (because I've listened to my body and my body says NO thanks!). The dogs do really well on a chicken/brown rice food. (PetGuard Lifespan). I get it off chewy.com and the big 36lb bag is around 52.00, which is pretty economical. Paying a little bit more for a quality food helps keep the other vet visits down, like itchy skin/hot spots, ear infections, etc. Oh, and tummies are MUCH better on this food than on Fromm. and $20 bucks less than the fancy Fromm grain free foods.

I make sure they get variety with cooked toppers (meats/veg, and yogurt or eggs or fish or...)
Hope this helps.


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## leaveittoweaver (Nov 15, 2013)

Shamrockmommy said:


> The short answer to this is: You need to try a food you think would be good and then listen to what your dog "says" in the way of health and digestion once they've been eating the food.
> 
> I was on the grain free trend up until just recently. I fed Fromm 4star grain free for the majority of their food. I had issues with stools being soft and large. It's a pain for the head scooper to be dealing with ooky dog poop all the time. I also had some flabby bodies and itching issues.
> 
> ...


This! 

It is really about what works for you and your dog. Pick something that is economical and of an okay quality and see how your dog does with it and go from there. That's usually how I tell people to pick a dog food if they want something different.

Grains in and of themselves are not bad for dogs. I know some dogs who literally can't tolerate grain free. They get loose stool, fur looks bad, etc.

I personally will not feed anything with wheat, soy, and corn. For two reasons, one they are generally inexpensive ingredients that just boost the protein up to meet the standards by AAFCO. Also because ingredients like corn just pass right through the system barely digested so your dog doesn't get that much out of it.

I do a grain free food but not because I think it's the best thing or because it's grain free. I do it because it's the food I found with the highest fiber content that keeps my dogs stools firm.

Variety is really the most important thing you can do for your dog in my opinion. I switch up canned food a lot or use raw goats milk or low fat yogurt as a topper. I personally don't feel it's healthy to just feed one kibble day in and day out because you simply can't guarantee that after the kibble is cooked that it hasn't lost a lot of nutrients. In fact, 80% of probiotics are cooked out. Unless you feed a kibble like Fromm or Holistic Select who add the probiotics after the food is cooked.

Sorry! I went off on a long tangent there!


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## Shamrockmommy (Sep 10, 2009)

I have always rotated dry foods (my dogs get 50% dry, 50% cooked). But, I haven't been able to find many foods that all 4 dogs do well on. I keep coming back to this one since they do so well and then with my cooked diet, I am able to rotate proteins/veggies for that sort of variety. 

I thought about looking into Natural Balance, as they are similar in formulation to the pet guard i like so well. But then, I just got tummies and skin back to normal after trying 6 weeks on THK, so I don't think I'll mess with things for a while. 

I wish I could be one of those people who didn't notice things so much! LOL I wouldn't be so picky with dog food.


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## leaveittoweaver (Nov 15, 2013)

Shamrockmommy said:


> I have always rotated dry foods (my dogs get 50% dry, 50% cooked). But, I haven't been able to find many foods that all 4 dogs do well on. I keep coming back to this one since they do so well and then with my cooked diet, I am able to rotate proteins/veggies for that sort of variety.
> 
> I thought about looking into Natural Balance, as they are similar in formulation to the pet guard i like so well. But then, I just got tummies and skin back to normal after trying 6 weeks on THK, so I don't think I'll mess with things for a while.
> 
> I wish I could be one of those people who didn't notice things so much! LOL I wouldn't be so picky with dog food.


Haha. I'm the same way! I won't be changing Vee's dry food for a long while. I'm finally comfortable with her stool and because of all the loose stool and diarrhea she lost some weight so I hate the thought of risking her lose more. But I do vary it up a lot with canned and I do the goats milk. I'd like to start trying some new dry foods in maybe a month. What she's on though is so high in fiber at 8.5% and I'm scared if I try anything lower she'll go back to how she was 

Natural Balance is good. I recommend it a lot to people with dogs with allergies as a starting point to figure out what allergies are going on. The only thing I dislike about it is that it lists potatoes first...that always kinda bugs me but the food works for a lot of people so you can't argue with that really. Despite the recall, I do like California Naturals grain free product because it doesn't use potatoes at all, and I really have been liking Zignature a lot.

Have you ever tried Fromm Pork and Peas? I know you've done a lot of Fromm and it's not been the best with their stool. 

It's expensive but if you are looking for something that gives good stools, I swear by the Pure Vita Bison Grain free...that crazy high fiber seems to do the trick.  Not that that means it would work for your dogs but worth a shot!


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## doggiedad (Jan 23, 2011)

humans can't digest the outer shell on the corn. humans can digest the inside.



NutroGeoff said:


> Grains, in general, aren't bad for all dogs. There are, of course, some dogs that do have severe allergies to grains and absolutely must be on a grain free food. Corn, wheat, and rice all meet up with AAFCO standards for dog food. Now having said that, I do generally recommend that you feed a formula without corn and wheat.
> 
> >>>>> Dogs can't digest the corn, just the same way that humans cant, <<<<<
> 
> and both have been some of the biggest allergy issues I have coke across for dogs in my five years of working for Nutro. I can tell u out that my dogs have been eating Nutro Natural Choice and Ultra for all those five years for the older one and since they were puppies for the two younger dogs. Those formulas both have rice in them. My dogs do amazingly on their food and have been extremely healthy on it. In my opinion, while the grain free foods are also very good for them, they aren't 100% necessary unless your dog does have severe allergies. I generally do recommend either a chicken and whole brown rice formula or a lamb and whole brown rice formula as your first option.


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## Unosmom (May 3, 2009)

I like the logic behind grain free, but too many companies are jumping on the bandwagon and coming up with foods that are much worse than their grain inclusive counterparts. They are chalk full of potatoes and peas and I'd much rather see something that around 30% protein with some rice or millet than a ton of starches. 
While my dog doesn't have grain allergies, he's always done better on higher protein, grain free foods like Acana and Go. Overall better muscle tone, skin/coat condition, less shedding, less pooping, etc. 

They tend to cost little more, but they are also generally higher protein/calorie, so you don't have to feed as much and can end up costing about the same in the long run as less expensive brands like canidae.


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## Georgiapeach (Jan 24, 2011)

I've had several dogs over the years, and all of them have done better on a grain-free kibble. Grains have made all of my dogs itchy. I've had mostly rescues - maybe they've been given up because they've had dietary issues that their former owners weren't willing to resolve - who knows? Lord knows, I wish I had a dog who could eat anything - lol! 

I've had to find the right grain-free however, for each dog. I currently have a westie/bichon who absolutely cannot tolerate ANY grains, potatoes (white or sweet), or alfalfa (also has an environmental grass allergy). I've had a boxer in the past who needed grain-free, but couldn't tolerate peas, and had to have potato to keep his stool firm. Every dog is different, just like people are.


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## lauren43 (Feb 6, 2011)

The food portion has been covered. Dogs were domesticated. They still have a digestive tract most similar to a wolf. That means something different to each and every dog owner. Use the info as you wish.

Dogs are by nature carnivores but they became dogs by being the ultimate scavenger and learning to use humans to survive.


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## Celt (Dec 27, 2010)

Dogs are opportunistic carnivores. The carnivore part means they do best on foods that are protein "heavy" and digest meat based proteins more readily. But the opportunistic part means they can do pretty well on pretty much anything as long as it supplies enogh digestible protein. The grains in dog food has been processed up the kazoo, so it can be digested fairly easily. Some dogs through gentics and diet digest grain inclusive foods better than others by the same token these can make it more difficult for some to digest grain inclusive foods at all. This is why it so important to look at your dog and determine which foods they do best on. I'm big on feeding a variety of foods ("base" diet and toppers), so feel switching back and forth between the 2 "kinds" of kibble to be a good thing. There are some economical grain free foods. I've fed a couple, quite a few people may think they're not the best quality but my pups do well on it, soo I feed them. One is Zero Grain from Rachel Ray Nutrish, the other is a PetsMart brand (Authority puppy, not a fav though. They prefer the grain inclusive version better). You need to buy, as others have said, a food you feel comfortable feeding then determine is your pup doing good on it or not. This may involve cycling through lots of foods to find what works for you both. Personally, I think finding 3 or more brands/types of food to feed and switching between them often (nearly daily for me) important to the health and well being of dogs.


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## FarminaND (May 23, 2013)

NutroGeoff said:


> Grains, in general, aren't bad for all dogs. There are, of course, some dogs that do have severe allergies to grains and absolutely must be on a grain free food. Corn, wheat, and rice all meet up with AAFCO standards for dog food. Now having said that, I do generally recommend that you feed a formula without corn and wheat. Dogs can't digest the corn, just the same way that humans cant, and both have been some of the biggest allergy issues I have coke across for dogs in my five years of working for Nutro. I can tell u out that my dogs have been eating Nutro Natural Choice and Ultra for all those five years for the older one and since they were puppies for the two younger dogs. Those formulas both have rice in them. My dogs do amazingly on their food and have been extremely healthy on it. In my opinion, while the grain free foods are also very good for them, they aren't 100% necessary unless your dog does have severe allergies. I generally do recommend either a chicken and whole brown rice formula or a lamb and whole brown rice formula as your first option.


Respectfully, for a person that works at a pet food company, your statement that dogs cannot digest corn is 100% incorrect. Dogs and people cannot digest the Pericarp, or the shell, but corn (and all other grains) are then milled (ground) and gelatinized. Once these steps occur, corn is virtually all digestible above 90% of the ground matter. Commercialized wheat does have a measurable incidence of allergies but there is some very pronounced breed disposition. Corn on the other hand is among ingredients like rice, oats, spelt and millet to have almost no statistical importance in allergies. It happens of course but it is very rare.

Ciao


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## Shamrockmommy (Sep 10, 2009)

Personal anecdote here: I am allergic to corn. It is in EVERYTHING. Quite literally, nearly everything. It's a dickens trying to feed myself, bathe myself, clean dishes and laundry, mop floors, walk into a grocery store or movie theater, etc. etc. 
I don't wish this allergy on anyone.


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## leaveittoweaver (Nov 15, 2013)

Shamrockmommy said:


> Personal anecdote here: I am allergic to corn. It is in EVERYTHING. Quite literally, nearly everything. It's a dickens trying to feed myself, bathe myself, clean dishes and laundry, mop floors, walk into a grocery store or movie theater, etc. etc.
> I don't wish this allergy on anyone.


That's terrible  Aren't you allergic to wheat too or gluten intolerant? Or am I confusing you with another forum member.


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## Shamrockmommy (Sep 10, 2009)

Yep, that too! 


I'm actually pretty ok now, as I have sources of safe food and soaps and such, it's going out to eat (rarely) or traveling to visit family or attending dinner parties that kills me.


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## sozzle (May 18, 2011)

Shamrockmommy said:


> Yep, that too!
> 
> 
> I'm actually pretty ok now, as I have sources of safe food and soaps and such, it's going out to eat (rarely) or traveling to visit family or attending dinner parties that kills me.


What would be in soaps that you are allergic to in the way of grains? I ask this because I have recently started making my own soap and it is heaps of fun. I think I am up to batch No.10 in about 7 weeks. Yesterday I made a sandalwood patchouli soap part coloured with cocoa powder using olive, coconut and rice bran oil. Tomorrow I am going to make an uncoloured unscented one. Hopefully I can sell to friends as I have had some interest. I was lucky enough to find all my equipment in second hand shops (thrift) and my husband has made me a soap mould, soap cutter and cutter blade to make life easier. There are people that are allergic to the additives in soap I know or that they have eczema or dry skin that commercial soaps irritate. If you have the time or inclination it is really worth a go because actually making the soap takes very little time, it is just the curing that I wish was not so long. (cold process soap).
BTW getting back to the subject in question, I personally feed mostly raw with a bit of commercial (not dried) thrown in as I have recently adopted a second ex racing greyhound and we are on a budget. As others have said I think different dogs do well (or not) on different foods. For instance my inlaws just about to turn 13 year old border collie looks amazing, shiny coat, lively, no health problems and he has always eaten commercial dog food a mixture of dogroll and kibble, he is only fed once a day and is intact. Most people think he is about 6 or 7 and I have seen other younger border collies that look positively decrepit compared to him....could be good genetics of course.
My dog is lean with a shiny coat and good teeth, not sure if it is genetics or diet and exercise. I have had him since he was 5, mind you his coat was really dull, shaggy and rough when we got him which apparently is quite common in greyhounds off the track plus he came from a colder climate so was maybe losing his winter coat?


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## Shamrockmommy (Sep 10, 2009)

Sozzle, there is a very long list of corn derivatives that could be in soap, it would suck to type them down here LOL. 

I can use castile soap, and I like the soaps from GF savonniere as well. Even dog shampoo bothers me, I either wear gloves or make sure I rinse my hands/arms very well. 

Leaveittoweaver, I forgot to answer your question. I have not tried Fromm Pork n peas yet. I'm not sure I will. Echo (pwd) is still healing after working up a hot spot from THK Embark, I am suspecting the flax. She did not get any better on Fromm surf n turf, which has flax also, and now she's got a giant hot spot <sigh> on her side. So I've got her on a simple chicken/rice food to see if that helps her any. Poor thing is wearing her winter fleece to keep her from scratching at it.
Ugh.


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## leaveittoweaver (Nov 15, 2013)

Shamrockmommy said:


> Sozzle, there is a very long list of corn derivatives that could be in soap, it would suck to type them down here LOL.
> 
> I can use castile soap, and I like the soaps from GF savonniere as well. Even dog shampoo bothers me, I either wear gloves or make sure I rinse my hands/arms very well.
> 
> ...


Yeah probably best to stay away then. I guess there is some debate out there about Flax being a grain or not?

Glad you've found some safe foods! I can't imagine how frustrating that is.


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## Jackie (Jan 19, 2014)

Wow, so much information! Well I guess I'll give a couple foods a shot... Should I try things like Pedigree and Iams? Pedigree is supposed to be awful food but Jackie's sister who is two years older than her has been on it her whole life without problems. I'm not entirely sure if that's a coincidence or if diet really does depend that much on the individual!


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## Shamrockmommy (Sep 10, 2009)

ME personally? I would never feed Pedigree or Iams. I don't like the ingredients in them (my dogs would tear themselves up). I can't stand the way Pedigree STINKS, and their stool is huge and gross. Since I'm the head scooper, that's a big deal to me.

I stick to the 3-5 star foods on dog food advisor.com, not as a "holy grail'' but as a good guide to healthier food choices. 

Certainly if it came down to budget and my dogs did ok on something like that, I'd feed them, but I think 3 of my 4 dogs would rapidly turn into itchy, hair losing, miserable dogs. 

So anyway, I recommend against them, BUT there are tons of dogs who DO eat those brands and do ok enough that their humans feed it. Just please listen to your dog. Itching, scratching, ear infections, hot spots, foot licking, butt scooting, "doggy smell" are not normal and symptoms of food intolerance.


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## InkedMarie (Sep 9, 2011)

Jackie said:


> Wow, so much information! Well I guess I'll give a couple foods a shot... Should I try things like Pedigree and Iams? Pedigree is supposed to be awful food but Jackie's sister who is two years older than her has been on it her whole life without problems. I'm not entirely sure if that's a coincidence or if diet really does depend that much on the individual!


They're not good foods in the least. Plenty of dogs eat those kinds of foods & seem to be okay but unless you have a Crystal ball, you don't really know how the dog is on the inside. There are foods that are cheaper but good quality such as dr Tim's, Victor, hi Tek.


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## Georgiapeach (Jan 24, 2011)

Jackie said:


> Wow, so much information! Well I guess I'll give a couple foods a shot... Should I try things like Pedigree and Iams? Pedigree is supposed to be awful food but Jackie's sister who is two years older than her has been on it her whole life without problems. I'm not entirely sure if that's a coincidence or if diet really does depend that much on the individual!


Please don't feed these kibbles! It would be as if you ate McDonald's french fries as a steady diet - very high in fat, sugar, and grains and full of God knows what kind of by-products (including beaks, feathers, feet, etc.). 

If you shop at Petsmart, look into their store brands if you're on a budget (Authority - comes in grain inclusive or grain free; Simply Nourish is their slightly upscale store brand - also comes in grain inclusive or grain free). They're much better than Pedigree or Iams. If you have a Tractor Supply, their 4 Health is also a better alternative. It also comes in grain inclusive and grain-free varieties. These foods aren't the best, but they're decent.


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## Dr Dolittle (Aug 2, 2013)

FarminaND said:


> Respectfully, for a person that works at a pet food company, your statement that dogs cannot digest corn is 100% incorrect. Dogs and people cannot digest the Pericarp, or the shell, but corn (and all other grains) are then milled (ground) and gelatinized. Once these steps occur, corn is virtually all digestible above 90% of the ground matter. Commercialized wheat does have a measurable incidence of allergies but there is some very pronounced breed disposition. Corn on the other hand is among ingredients like rice, oats, spelt and millet to have almost no statistical importance in allergies. It happens of course but it is very rare.
> 
> Good ol' Farmina! I can always count on you to write what I'm yelling at my computer screen. You are absolutely right and Jackie asked an awesome question and your answer about corn should help her understand it is ALL marketing! the consumer is driving all these fads and there isn't one food that hasn't jumped on the bandwagon! Dogs are NOT carnivores, but omnivores! Want to see a carnivore? look at a cat!Sadly, nutrition science is even being replaced with hype and silly claims in the veterinary diets, and it is getting very difficult for even vets to take the time and be discerning. Chicken first, holistic, grain free, all tricks to get more money from loving concerned pet owners like us, and it has NOTHING to do with nutrition. man, this gets old! Corn is an excellent carb for energy, has 5 times the fatty acids of rice, contains great fiber in the shell, highe quality amino acids in the heart, beta caratene and selenium......and extremely rare as an allergen! lamb now has a higher incidence of allergic reactions! The marketing will continue to dazzle you with fancy claims and pretty ingredients and not say a single thing about nutrients, the things that indeed influence your pets health! natural balance? I know a cat owner that spent $800 for surgery on a 13 year old cat. She had been on a mainstream premium food the doc had recomended, for 13 years, but the gal at the boutique food store said Natural balance was better? A few months later the cat blocked with struvite uroliths and needed emergency surgery. A quick check of the minerals in the food and it was easy to see why. I would have gone back to the store....and done bad things!!! Jackie, don't feel bad if you can' tad ford these fad diets. Purina dog chow has healthier protein, phosphorus, and sodium levels and more antioxidants than Blue Buffalo! Wellness Core G rain free has the same excessive phosphorus and sodium as Old Roy at walmart. I guess we just live in the age of rip off. it's a real shame.
> 
> Ciao


Good ol' Farmina! I can always count on you to write what I'm yelling at my computer screen. You are absolutely right and Jackie asked an awesome question and your answer about corn should help her understand it is ALL marketing! the consumer is driving all these fads and there isn't one food that hasn't jumped on the bandwagon! Dogs are NOT carnivores, but omnivores! Want to see a carnivore? look at a cat!Sadly, nutrition science is even being replaced with hype and silly claims in the veterinary diets, and it is getting very difficult for even vets to take the time and be discerning. Chicken first, holistic, grain free, all tricks to get more money from loving concerned pet owners like us, and it has NOTHING to do with nutrition. man, this gets old! Corn is an excellent carb for energy, has 5 times the fatty acids of rice, contains great fiber in the shell, highe quality amino acids in the heart, beta caratene and selenium......and extremely rare as an allergen! lamb now has a higher incidence of allergic reactions! The marketing will continue to dazzle you with fancy claims and pretty ingredients and not say a single thing about nutrients, the things that indeed influence your pets health! natural balance? I know a cat owner that spent $800 for surgery on a 13 year old cat. She had been on a mainstream premium food the doc had recomended, for 13 years, but the gal at the boutique food store said Natural balance was better? A few months later the cat blocked with struvite uroliths and needed emergency surgery. A quick check of the minerals in the food and it was easy to see why. I would have gone back to the store....and done bad things!!! Jackie, don't feel bad if you can' tad ford these fad diets. Purina dog chow has healthier protein, phosphorus, and sodium levels and more antioxidants than Blue Buffalo! Wellness Core G rain free has the same excessive phosphorus and sodium as Old Roy at walmart. I guess we just live in the age of rip off. it's a real shame.


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## Shamrockmommy (Sep 10, 2009)

I went and read science diet's different formulas and I am impressed by their high vitamin C and E levels. I just don't know if *I* personally won't react to feeding them foods with corn in it (I have a lovely corn allergy). 
Lately I've been trying to get coats/skin back after trying The Honest Kitchen, which caused red, itchy skin, hot spots, face rubbing/scratching and coat falling out like crazy. 
I am using a simple chicken/rice food. It was changed several years ago- it used to contain corn and wow, the dogs had the most gorgeous coats. Now... they're almost there, but not quite minus the corn.

So purina and science diet? I really, really want them to work.

On an upside, I think I've mentioned, one of my fosters (lives with his new momma now for several years) is 20 years old and eats Science Diet WD. Must be doing something right!

Ponders.


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## leaveittoweaver (Nov 15, 2013)

Shamrockmommy said:


> I went and read science diet's different formulas and I am impressed by their high vitamin C and E levels. I just don't know if *I* personally won't react to feeding them foods with corn in it (I have a lovely corn allergy).
> Lately I've been trying to get coats/skin back after trying The Honest Kitchen, which caused red, itchy skin, hot spots, face rubbing/scratching and coat falling out like crazy.
> I am using a simple chicken/rice food. It was changed several years ago- it used to contain corn and wow, the dogs had the most gorgeous coats. Now... they're almost there, but not quite minus the corn.
> 
> ...


All about what works for your dog!

Greyhound owners swear by Iams Chunks in the green bag. I personally could not bring myself to use it and found something that worked just as well...and cost like triple. But if I couldn't find anything that would work for my dog, you can bet I would try the Iams.


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## lauren43 (Feb 6, 2011)

Dr Dolittle said:


> Dogs are NOT carnivores, but omnivores! Want to see a carnivore? look at a cat!Sadly, nutrition science is even being replaced with hype and silly claims in the veterinary diets, and it is getting very difficult for even vets to take the time and be discerning.


Carnivore vs Omnivore vs herbivore is a sliding scale. Dogs may not be true carnivores like cats but they are far from omnivores. I would say it looks more like what you see below. Just because a dog can process something, does not necessarily mean its good for them. I could survive on mcdonalds, but the question is would I be healthy?


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## NutroGeoff (May 15, 2013)

Jackie said:


> Wow, so much information! Well I guess I'll give a couple foods a shot... Should I try things like Pedigree and Iams? Pedigree is supposed to be awful food but Jackie's sister who is two years older than her has been on it her whole life without problems. I'm not entirely sure if that's a coincidence or if diet really does depend that much on the individual!


While some dogs might do well enough on that, I generally recommend something a little more high end. The foods that are only sold at pet specialty stores are generally a safer bet. But as you said, it really does depend on the dog and their special needs. What works best for one dog may make another dog sick and itchy. It's tough to find what's best for each dog.


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## Jackie (Jan 19, 2014)

Thanks!! So much to absorb, but it's great! Are there any studies available that I can show as proof that corn has the necessary protein and nutrients? This is all pretty fascinating to me because there are SO many different opinions and it's very difficult to know which to believe... It'd be so nice to have hard, cold, scientifically researched facts, but the difficult thing is that most research is done by dog food companies. Is there even a place where I can find information done by an unbiased researcher? I would especially love to see things about corn and grain free, but I don't know if that's even possible beause I ahven't come across such studies before.


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## NutroGeoff (May 15, 2013)

Jackie said:


> Thanks!! So much to absorb, but it's great! Are there any studies available that I can show as proof that corn has the necessary protein and nutrients? This is all pretty fascinating to me because there are SO many different opinions and it's very difficult to know which to believe... It'd be so nice to have hard, cold, scientifically researched facts, but the difficult thing is that most research is done by dog food companies. Is there even a place where I can find information done by an unbiased researcher? I would especially love to see things about corn and grain free, but I don't know if that's even possible beause I ahven't come across such studies before.


You may be able to find some research through AAFCO, which is the company that defines what can go into dog food. You may also be able to find some research that The Waltham Centre for Pet Nutrition has done. That's probably where I would start.


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## stbernardlover (Jun 24, 2013)

Jackie said:


> Thanks!! So much to absorb, but it's great! Are there any studies available that I can show as proof that corn has the necessary protein and nutrients? This is all pretty fascinating to me because there are SO many different opinions and it's very difficult to know which to believe... It'd be so nice to have hard, cold, scientifically researched facts, but the difficult thing is that most research is done by dog food companies. Is there even a place where I can find information done by an unbiased researcher? I would especially love to see things about corn and grain free, but I don't know if that's even possible beause I ahven't come across such studies before.


I have always found this study to be an interesting read. They conducted it in order to see how oats act in sled dog diets, however corn is one of the other grains used in the study (along with rice, barley and wheat). To me it shows that corn isn't necessarily a culprit when compared to other grains.

http://ojs.tsv.fi/index.php/AFS/article/view/5773/4971


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## Jackie (Jan 19, 2014)

NutroGeoff said:


> You may be able to find some research through AAFCO, which is the company that defines what can go into dog food. You may also be able to find some research that The Waltham Centre for Pet Nutrition has done. That's probably where I would start.


Thank you!!!


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## NutroGeoff (May 15, 2013)

Jackie said:


> Thank you!!!


You are very welcome. Let us know if you have any other questions. I know there are a lot of people on this site with a lot of k owl edge about dogs and dog food.


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## Dr Dolittle (Aug 2, 2013)

Jackie said:


> Thanks!! So much to absorb, but it's great! Are there any studies available that I can show as proof that corn has the necessary protein and nutrients? This is all pretty fascinating to me because there are SO many different opinions and it's very difficult to know which to believe... It'd be so nice to have hard, cold, scientifically researched facts, but the difficult thing is that most research is done by dog food companies. Is there even a place where I can find information done by an unbiased researcher? I would especially love to see things about corn and grain free, but I don't know if that's even possible beause I ahven't come across such studies before.


Jackie, There really is no debate over corn. Hills has the most nutritionists and chemists, Purina is next! then Royal canine and aims? They ALL know corn is a great carb with lots of great benefits, but science doesn't sell pet food these days. All those companies now make grain free, all natural diets to please the consumer. So all you can do if you want one of those foods is to ask the nutrient levels such as protein, phosphorus and sodium, which reveals the quality of the meat sources and philosophy of the company, and the level of omega 3s and 6s and antioxidants. those promoting that corn is bad are simply marketing a myth. You said you want research not done by pet food companies. Well, would you really want food companies that treat various diseases with diets not doing research? I want food companies to show me why I should recommend their foods! especially their therapeutic foods? Yes, studies can be used out of context by marketers but there are excellent studies not all over the world that food companies read and evaluate and sometimes include in their formulas. I am more concerned with all the food companies with NO research, NO nutritionists! NO chemists, yet many well meaning folks, some on this forum, will trust them wholeheartedly with their pets health. I look at nutrient levels in diets like Wellness Core, Blur buffalo! Evolved, taste of the Wild, etc and it makes me nuts...angry and sad. they are the bad guys yet are celebrated by good hearted, but misinformed pet lovers. And I am starting to see veterinarians buying in to these marketing gimmicks as well! and though I understand they are busy! shame on them! their clients deserve better? Jackie, there's no such thing as unbiased. I now look for what their agenda is, sometimes hard to see but I like when I see companies do things right for the pets that the public doesn't see? I am privet to that kind of stuff but unfortunately consumers aren't. Anyway, I would agree with some others that said no to pedigree and aims based on nutrient levels? I don't know who makes Authority anymore but a few years ago their nutrient levels impressed me. I do believe Science diet I'd the best buy out there as Shamrock momma said! it has extremely high vitamin and antioxidant levels and really healthy phosphorus and sodium levels! probably becasue their nutritionists make more therapeutic diets than any other company? And Purina's ONE is a good buy for the money, with better nutrient levels than blue Buffalo and even more antioxidants too! the cost of a food means nothing these days! LOL! God Bless!


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## Dr Dolittle (Aug 2, 2013)

InkedMarie said:


> They're not good foods in the least. Plenty of dogs eat those kinds of foods & seem to be okay but unless you have a Crystal ball, you don't really know how the dog is on the inside. There are foods that are cheaper but good quality such as dr Tim's, Victor, hi Tek.


Excellent point! A food could be great in producing a lush shiny coat, bright eyes, healthy stool, etc but what if the excess protein and phosphorus is overtaxing her kidneys over the years, or the high sodium is slowly contributing to heart disease, or if the unbalance mineral levels will produce stones that will have to be removed thru expensive, painful surgery? And what if that food had high levels of antioxidants to reduce oxidative stress and help keep the immune system working? That's nutrition! not arguing I've the first ingredient! corn! grain free! all the topics the marketing people want you to concentrate.


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## Shamrockmommy (Sep 10, 2009)

I am >.< this close to trying Science Diet, just to see what happens. 
Years ago, my favorite food was PetGuard Lifespan, and it had corn in it. People poo-pooed it stating corn was bad. The dogs had the most beautiful coats. 
They are on it right now, and corn was removed, Oh probably in the early 2000's, but several years ago. Their coats aren't anywhere as nice as they used to be.

NOW the only issue I worry about... I have a pretty obscene corn allergy. I had chickens. HAD. I couldn't even feed them without turning into a giant pile of hives wherever the corn dust ended up. SO, I worry about having a dog food with corn in it in the house, in my dogs' mouths (who then come to kiss me). 
I guess the only way to know is to try.

Dr. Doolittle, what do you think of SD's Ideal Balance?

Edit: Sorry to have repeated myself from my last post, basically LOL. Forgot what I had written previously!


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## Shamrockmommy (Sep 10, 2009)

And then I go and read the various reviews of SD and I don't think I can bring myself to feed it. LOL


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## Dr Dolittle (Aug 2, 2013)

Shamrockmommy said:


> And then I go and read the various reviews of SD and I don't think I can bring myself to feed it. LOL


 Well, for my money the regular SD is the best deal. Ideal balance has a great nutrient profile and really high antioxidant levels but costs more to make with the ingredients marketers are promoting. You're better off going with IB since your corn allergy. It's no more expensive than the other fad diets. reviews? Well, the blind leading the blind means both go off the cliff!


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## Jackie (Jan 19, 2014)

I see your point! I meant I'd like to see research not done by pet food companies to verify the information that the pet food companies are giving--just because each company would (and should) be biased towards their own product. The nice thing about Science Diet I have to admit is that EVERY veterinary office sells their prescription diets and I've seen how well those special diets can work, so I suppose it makes sense that their products available to the public would be good, too. On the other hand, it's so confusing because as you said, some vets recommend Science Diet and Purina while others say Blue Buffalo and California Naturals. Who do you believe? Do they still go to nutrition seminars? Another question is how do you know how many antioxidants are in the food?


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## Dr Dolittle (Aug 2, 2013)

Jackie, as far as research and studies, more go on than ever get mentioned. many get published which means they have been reviewed by peers and that helps determine their quality, but again, everything can be manipulated to seek something! Purina did an excellent 14 year study wih labs looking at the effect of obesity on health and longevity. very well done. What they found was what most vets knew but it helped confirm it. the healthy weight dogs lived an average of 2 years longer and came down with less age related ailments. by the way, a study done on cats got the same result. the marketers at Purina took that study and made a TV commercial stating that Clinical Research proves feeding Purina puppy and dog chow your dog will live an average of two years longer! What they did was insert the wordCORRECTLY. In other words, feed them correctly, keep them lean, and get two more years, but when you watch the commercial it sounds very different. As a matter of fact I will be rubbing elbows with some of the top nutritionists this week and discussing L'tryptophan in feline diets. I believe the research was done in Europe and not by a food company but food companies have been evaluating such research and perhaps doing their own. I really don't want to speak ill of vets but you asked why would some recommend blue and other fad diets? hey, vets are consumers too! If they don't know better they can get caught up in all that ingredient baloney. Some may sell it just for the profit but I like to think there aren't too many of them. Sadly, marketing is exhausting to these vets and they do make poor choices in diets sometimes because they are bombarded with information, just like us. You're right, most use and trust the hills vet diets because they have seen them work so well. I predict we will see vet diets starting to manipulate their ingredient panels to satisfy the wants of pet owners, which won't harm the diets but it's sad because some diets by purpose and nature cannot be chicken first or prettied up to satisfy everyone. the nutrient levels MUST be maintained for the specific purpose of the diet.

As far as antioxidants, we cannot measure how well antioxidants work directly but alkanals are a by product of cell oxidation from free radicals. So we can test levels of nantioxidants and measure the decrease in alkanals in the blood. That is how the levels are determined at this point, till we learn more. The levels you see on a bag of food are usually minimums and the actual is usually a little higher. Hills Science diet puppy food actually had a claim on their bag last timei looked that stated they had clinical research that their antioxidant package has been proven to increase the immune system in 90 days. To make a specific claim and put it on a very regulated bag, they must have 2 independent studies proving that. that's a very different claim than just saying added antioxidants. I like 500 to 700 IU in my food vs the typical 150 IU I find on most foods? hard to find out but you really want Vit E, C, selenium, and beta caratene which is what you find if you buy a supplement for yourself. Those four work synergystically much better than just dumping one or another. Anyway, gotta catch a plane! God Bless!


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## Jackie (Jan 19, 2014)

Dr Dolittle;Purina did an excellent 14 year study wih labs looking at the effect of obesity on health and longevity. very well done. What they found was what most vets knew but it helped confirm it. the healthy weight dogs lived an average of 2 years longer and came down with less age related ailments.[/QUOTE said:


> Yes! I did hear about this study when a nutritionist came from Colorado and talked to my college class! She was the one who also told me good dog food should be around 25% protein which is what I see on many dog food bags. Thank you for explaining the antioxidants, that was SO helpful--it's things like that I love because there's research behind it and the way it works and what it is can be described so exactly and undoubtedly. That, to me, is unbiased information. Thank you and have fun on your flight!


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