# I just need some reassurance...



## Spaz (Sep 3, 2009)

I feel like I just escaped the Twilight Zone. Today was the first time going to the vet with Hannah since switching her to raw. I decided that I was not going to bring up what I fed her unless the vet asked. Also I told them that all I was coming in for was a fecal sample, blood work and heartworm testing- no vaccines.

So my BF and I get there. The vet tech is looking through Hannah's records and tells me that she is overdue on her Lymes and that the vet that she use to go to gave her the Distemper but not Leptospirosis. I tell them again that I'm not here for vaccines.

Then the vet comes in and goes through the records again and repeats everything that the tech told me. I'm just about to repeat myself again when my BF tells them to give her the Lymes. I could have hit him in the head with a frozen fish! 

Okay now on to Hannah's exam. She looks in her mouth and tells me how great her teeth look. Feels her body and tells me how awesome her weight is. Then comes the first question.... "How much do you feed her?" "Ummm... about a pound and half of food a day." DOH! Here it comes... "Oh what do you feed her?" "She's raw fed." "Oh so you feed her veggies and meat." "Nope PMR." Odd look. "Meat, bones and organs that's it." "So no grains or veggies." "Nope."

She then goes on to tell me that dogs in the wild only live for 5-6 years. They are not carnivores they are omnivores. They eat the stomach content of their prey. I really should put in some grains and veggies in her diet she needs them. That there is too much protein in PMR (she said something like 60% ) And then there's salmonella and e. coli. And that I'm going to ruin her kidneys so its good that I'm getting blood work done and they are going to really focus on those levels. Yadda yadda yadda! 

My BF is no help because now he is telling me that my old dog Midnight died of kidney failure because she was raw fed. Midnight was 14 freaking years old that's why her kidneys failed her. Now he's telling me what is so difficult about putting some rice or veggies with her meals. She is a CARNIVORE that's why! GRRR!

Okay I'm done ranting. I feel better now that I've got my DFC fix and I'm back with people who understand PMR. Melt down done. :biggrin:


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## bumblegoat (May 12, 2010)

It really amazes me how she can look at your dog and compliment her teeth and body condition, and then when you tell her what you feed she immediately tells you that you are doing something wrong.


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## Tarielle (Oct 22, 2010)

Do what I do and start seeing a holistic vet.

They are much more understanding and tollerant of raw feeders. It was my holistic vet that told me to swap to raw feeding in the first place, something that my normal vet never mentioned. Don't get me started on what I think of my regular vet, my rant would last a good hour I reckon.

I don't think I'm going to go back to my normal vet unless my dog has an accident and needs immediate help.


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## Spaz (Sep 3, 2009)

Tarielle said:


> Do what I do and start seeing a holistic vet.


Not that I have actually done a search for one but I don't believe there are any in a reasonable driving distance. I've been through a lot of vets because of one reason or another. Pretty much all the vets around here that I've brought my animals to have the same views on raw which really sucks. I knew I was probably going to get lectured if it was brought up but it was just really overwhelming when it happened.


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## SerenityFL (Sep 28, 2010)

Spaz said:


> Okay now on to Hannah's exam. She looks in her mouth and tells me how great her teeth look. Feels her body and tells me how awesome her weight is. Then comes the first question.... "How much do you feed her?" "Ummm... about a pound and half of food a day." DOH! Here it comes... "Oh what do you feed her?" "She's raw fed." "Oh so you feed her veggies and meat." "Nope PMR." Odd look. "Meat, bones and organs that's it." "So no grains or veggies." "Nope."
> 
> She then goes on to tell me that dogs in the wild only live for 5-6 years. They are not carnivores they are omnivores. They eat the stomach content of their prey. I really should put in some grains and veggies in her diet she needs them. That there is too much protein in PMR (she said something like 60% ) And then there's salmonella and e. coli. And that I'm going to ruin her kidneys so its good that I'm getting blood work done and they are going to really focus on those levels. Yadda yadda yadda!
> 
> ...


Wild animals typically don't live as long as domesticated or animals in captivity for various reasons, not necessarily because of diet. 

As an example, (and this is not dogs but it should give you an idea of how ridiculous that statement was by the vet): Alligators typically live about 50 years, on average, in the wild. In captivity, they can live over 100 years. 

Hmmm. Typically in the wild they are going to get more variety of food to eat than in captivity. But the reason animals don't always live as long in the wild is because they have predators, there are diseases, there are cars, hunters, poachers, traps, fights, etc. To say that the average in the wild is lower simply because of what they eat is, as I said, ridiculous.

Yes, there may be salmonella and e-coli but dogs are not humans. Their digestive tract is shorter than humans. What stays in a human for 24 hours, takes hold and spreads around is not the same for dogs. They may eat something with salmonella but because the food doesn't stay in their system that long, the salmonella gets pooped right back out. 

It's fascinating to me that wolves have been around forever, (well, until humans came along and practically wiped them out), and that commercial dog food wasn't all that popular until some time after WWII, but that isn't enough proof for people. Did dogs who ate raw food, before kibble was mainstream, only live for 5-6 years? 

As I've said on here before, I have a co-worker who lived in East Germany when she was growing up. They didn't have commercial dog food. They fed their dogs raw food. Their dogs lived longer than 5-6 years.

It's amazing to me that everything was perfectly fine with your dog, "Great teeth! Perfect weight! Wow! Your dog looks fabulous! What are you feeding them so I may tell everyone else?"

OH, raw....suddenly you're going to kill your dog. 

Please.

And ask your BF if there is documented proof that Midnight died because of a raw diet.

The debate over whether dogs are carnivores or omnivores continues. Can they eat plants? Yes! My dogs try to eat plants every time we walk outside. I try to eat chocolate every opportunity I get. Does it mean either one of us actually NEEDS it? No. 

I believe dogs are carnivores, I was taught they are carnivores, many scientists will tell you they are carnivores. In the wild, the plants and berries are left behind in their scat. When you have something left behind in your scat, it's your body's way of telling you, "Hey, thanks, that tasted great and everything but, ya know, I kinda don't really need it so let's just leave that right there in that pile. Mmmmkay?"

Dogs will eat peanut butter sandwiches, cookies, lettuce, cheese, other dogs' poo...but that doesn't mean they get any nutritional value from those things any more than you or I do when we eat McDonald's or Peanut M&Ms, or a bag of Doritos while watching t.v.


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## 3Musketeers (Nov 4, 2010)

Wow, the vet pretty much said "Your dog looks great! But you're killing her." So ironic. It also sounds unpleasant that she told you the vaccines that were missing when you made it clear you didn't bring Hannah in for them :C


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## whiteleo (Sep 7, 2008)

Did you know the BF would turn on you if he had the chance? I probably wouldn't have taken him with you.

My vet and I get along just great, he doesn't advocate a raw diet but we don't discuss it either. He is wonderful with my animals so I will continue to see him. He asks about vaccines and I tell him I'll just be getting the rabies vaccine for the animals from now on and he knows I'm a strong willed person so he just doesn't push it.

Sorry about what happened but at least you'll have the bloodwork to back you up.


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## Spaz (Sep 3, 2009)

whiteleo said:


> Did you know the BF would turn on you if he had the chance? I probably wouldn't have taken him with you.


I had a feeling he might but I'm always bugging him to come with since Hannah is his dog too. But I believe I've straightened him out. I went on a rant once we got in the car of all the things I wanted to tell the vet but I just couldn't bring myself to educate her  Like about the shorter digestive track, salmonella in dog kibble, dogs being scavengers and pretty much eating anything and everything but it not necessarily being nutritious and I just showed him how much protein there really is in raw meats.


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## Tarielle (Oct 22, 2010)

I drive for just under an hour to get to my dogs holistic vet but it's so worth it.
My dogs normal vet is 5 minutes away.

The way I figure it, I am so mad at all the times my dog was at the vet and they never figured out what was wrong with her (I even got into a full on verbal argument with the vet once). Over the years I think that the vet bills have come close to $3000 for all the on and off again visits and the drugs and the special food etc etc and Abbey is only 5 years old.

Besides the cost, why put up with someone that you and your dog aren't in harmony with?

It is sad that a lot of veterinarians are so narrow minded, not to mention being given kick backs by the companies whos drugs and food they sell. It's almost as if they have been either trained or paid to turn a blind eye to any alternatives.


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## Spaz (Sep 3, 2009)

I'm doing a search now for holistic vets and I found two that are about an hour away. I think I might give them a call some time this week. :smile:


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## luvMyBRT (Mar 8, 2010)

Spaz said:


> Okay I'm done ranting. I feel better now that I've got my DFC fix and I'm back with people who understand PMR. Melt down done. :biggrin:


Your right. You have done your research. You are giving your dog the best diet humanly possible for a carnivore. Your vet is wrong. Period. :biggrin:

I know when we move I will defiantly look into finding a Holistic vet. Good luck in your search!


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## DaneMama (Jun 27, 2008)

Good for you for sticking up for yourself with your BF because that is an important support system that you need. Next time you go to a normal vet, just say that they have NO business commenting on your dog's diet because they know nothing of it. Send em to my website to have a read (even though it'll go in and right back out with more skepticism) and you could talk to them about it til you're blue in the face, but I doubt it'll do any good. Either way, good luck about finding a good vet.

I work for a vet and she *hates* the fact that I feed raw, even though she sees my dogs daily and how healthy they are. Not really sure why. I just had a blood work panel done on Bailey and everything came back perfect and she seemed a bit disappointed to me...like she was thinking something was going to be wrong :frown:


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## MollyWoppy (Mar 19, 2010)

I'm cringing here as I'm ashamed to admit that I blatantly lie to my vet. When he asks me what I feed I just mutter something about feeding a variety of different foods, Orijen normally falls out of my mouth somewhere along the line. I hate lying, as he is awesome at his job and I really like him personally, but I also got the lecture from hell when I told him I was feeding raw (NV patties at the time). 
I also move heaven and earth to make sure my other half doesn't come with me - he'd have a ball blowing my cover, he doesn't like, or more likely, understand, the raw diet thing.


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

i like my vets. they diagnose very well, don't run a whole bunch of tests and aren't vaccine crazy....

they know i feed raw. i have felt the 'shame on you, we thought you were such good parents, don't you know the bones will kill them and if not the bones, the germs?'

we've agreed to disagree. one of my vets has actually taken the time to ask me about raw prey model and i've told him. he then asked for objective evidence at which time i told him the objective evidence is wagging his tail right in front of him...

that his three credit course was about as woeful as mine was for human medicine and that, quite frankly, i'm a little disappointed, that with times a'changin'.....he isn't more educated on nutrition for dogs....

i think that was the one line too many, so now we don't talk about the elephant in the room.

i'll continue to see them, but we won't discuss food....


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## cprcheetah (Jul 14, 2010)

Send your vet these links (written by an actual Veterinarian)
Dogs Are Carnivores
www.thewholedog.org/NHMVTheOmnivoreCarnivoreQuest.pdf

Constantly amazes me the Vet's out there who will compliment the heck out of the care/condition of the dog one second then totally diss your diet the next.

If you had bloodwork done be prepared for some 'normal' elevations due to raw feeding.
Issues in Nutrition


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## Jodysmom (Jan 9, 2010)

My vet knows my history with our rescue GSD, Jody. I just couldn't keep weight on her with EVO. The last time I brought Jody for an appt. her weight was perfect and the vet was very pleased. I told her I was feeding her NV pre-made raw which is not the full truth because I feed PMR. She told me that bacteria isn't a problem for dogs. She did warn me and told me about a client who fed raw and the dog's teeth were beautiful but worn down (one needing a crown). She blames it on the bones but I'll bet the client fed weight-baring bones/soup bones. 

My vet also had mentioned in the past that homemade diets are too complicated to make balanced so I have a feeling she would feel the same way about Do it yourself raw. 

I found her on American Holistic Veterinary Medical Association website.


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## mischiefgrrl (Oct 28, 2010)

It blows me away how close minded and obnoxious people are about diet choices - for animals and humans! I'm lucky to have a found a vet on the first try who was thrilled when I home cooked. I can't wait to tell him about feeding raw in our next checkup.

When I had my daughter 19 years ago both sides of the family thought I was an idiot for breast feeding. Their kids had formula and that should be good enough for mine too. There were a lot of arguments and judgements over something so simple.

I get a lot of hell from my co-workers for being a vegetarian. They think that is just crazy too. I've had people tell me it's unhealthy because they heard so. Usually the people who tell me this are the very definition of "unhealthy."

Stand strong, you've done your research and you know what you are doing. The results will speak for themself. If you have a happy healthy dog - who cares that someone else "heard" that raw was bad for them?!?


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## CorgiPaws (Mar 31, 2009)

mischiefgrrl said:


> When I had my daughter 19 years ago both sides of the family thought I was an idiot for breast feeding. Their kids had formula and that should be good enough for mine too. There were a lot of arguments and judgements over something so simple.


I hope you educated the HECK out of them on this one.
Baby formula industry is RIGHT up there with dog food industry on being absolutely ridiculous in my book. 
And I'll not go any further than that, so as to not steer the thread off topic.


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## 3Musketeers (Nov 4, 2010)

Vets should really not make it their business as to what clients feed their pets as long as they look happy and healthy. They are there to cure and prevent diseases, but getting mad over a raw diet, especially when they see it's benefiting a dog, is going too far and too close minded.
Rather than dismiss it and tell you you're going to kill your dog, it'd be nice and if they kept some sort of a health record for pmr fed dogs v.s barf and different types of kibble. It'd make for some very interesting studies.
When they act like gods who claim to know it all, it's rather nerve-wrecking.
I'm glad my vet doesn't ask or recommend or push food products or vaccines, no idea about his stance on raw, but it's comforting he's only ever given me medications (as opposed to "miracle" food products) whenever they have been sick.


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## mischiefgrrl (Oct 28, 2010)

CorgiPaws said:


> I hope you educated the HECK out of them on this one.
> Baby formula industry is RIGHT up there with dog food industry on being absolutely ridiculous in my book.
> And I'll not go any further than that, so as to not steer the thread off topic.


I'm very passionate about a healthy natural diet for all species! I just ignored the criticism that was coming from my MIL and my own Grandma and raised my child my way. Her pediatrician was right there with me. She was a preemie at 3 lbs and never had a single cold or illness until she was 2 years old. The other babies of friends and relatives that were formula fed (and born full term) had chronic ear infections and colds. 

Same for my furkids. I do my research and I believe in a natural diet. As long as they are healthy I don't care what anyone else has heard or assumed about their diet.


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## luvMyBRT (Mar 8, 2010)

mischiefgrrl said:


> I'm very passionate about a healthy natural diet for all species! I just ignored the criticism that was coming from my MIL and my own Grandma and raised my child my way. Her pediatrician was right there with me. She was a preemie at 3 lbs and never had a single cold or illness until she was 2 years old. The other babies of friends and relatives that were formula fed (and born full term) had chronic ear infections and colds.
> 
> Same for my furkids. I do my research and I believe in a natural diet. As long as they are healthy I don't care what anyone else has heard or assumed about their diet.


I'm right there with you. I was formula fed as a baby and I suffered with chronic ear infections all through out my childhood. To this day I am terrified of ear infections.

I breastfed both my children. They both have never had an ear infection and they both did not start getting sick until my oldest started going to preschool.

I feed both my dogs a raw diet.

I do my research and feel this is best and how it should be for the ones I love. :biggrin:


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## h&j (Nov 9, 2010)

CorgiPaws said:


> I hope you educated the HECK out of them on this one.
> Baby formula industry is RIGHT up there with dog food industry on being absolutely ridiculous in my book.


This is a topic near and dear to me right now, as I am breastfeeding my first (human) baby. I can't even tell you how mad I get when people say ignorant and discouraging things about infant nutrition. The formula industry has, in my opinion, crossed the line from ridiculous to downright criminal.

In fact, reading and doing so much research into appropriate nutrition for infants led me to want to do the same thing for the other dependent mammals in my life, which in turn led me to PMR.


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## mischiefgrrl (Oct 28, 2010)

Spaz - I swear we are not hijacking your thread! It is interesting though how nutrition for animals and humans are linked and what we are told about it.

It's been going on for hundreds of years too! I read the history of dog food and that goes back to advice written in the 1700's to boil all meat for the dogs! 

I was never really into processed foods - common sense told me that anything that came in a box was not nutritious. Though I don't believe it was until the last 10-20 years that those empty calories in "junk food" actually starting becoming dangerous. 

We need to go back to our instincts plain and simple.


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## SerenityFL (Sep 28, 2010)

mischiefgrrl said:


> It is interesting though how nutrition for animals and humans are linked and what we are told about it.
> 
> We need to go back to our instincts plain and simple.


I completely agree. Ever since I started the pets on raw, I've been thinking more about what I put in to my own mouth. The more natural, the better.


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## bumblegoat (May 12, 2010)

SerenityFL said:


> I completely agree. Ever since I started the pets on raw, I've been thinking more about what I put in to my own mouth. The more natural, the better.


I agree about this too. Okay, I do have one thing I have trouble not putting in my mouth, and that is sugar, as I'm a sugar addict (something I'm constantly battling) but I really try to stay away from any low fat products or products filled with additives. The reason I stay away from low fat stuff is because they are usually loaded with additives, plus I don't think fat is bad you, at least not natural fats. I believe that to whole "saturated fat is bad for you"-hype is a huge scam.


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## xxshaelxx (Mar 8, 2010)

I just want to say one thing about the whole bacteria issue. I read somewhere a few weeks ago that dogs have an enzyme in their saliva that kills off bacteria. I mean, not all bacteria, obviously, because the saliva doesn't touch every part of what goes down the hatch, but still. If they have an enzyme in their saliva meant to kill bacteria, then obviously they're going to be able to tolerate those same bacteria through their body.

In any case, a human can build up a tolerance to things like salmonella and other bacteria. I know I'm working on it! So over the years, as dogs are fed more and more raw and have babies that are fed raw, their systems are obviously going to become stronger and stronger against fighting said bacteria, so therefore, after thousands of years of dogs eating raw, and not kibble, they should be able to tolerate it, no? No. Not according to vets. -.-



I had an experience with a vet once, two, actually, with the same vet. When I adopted Kuso from a vet clinic an hour away, I told them that I didn't need the Iams pack they were sending me home with to help switch him, because I was going to fast him for a day and switch him cold turkey to raw food. Now, they didn't think it a bad thing to be feeding raw, but they pulled one of their techs or vets or whatever from the back to talk about it, and she starts telling me that I NEED veggies and supplements, and that I wasn't feeding my dogs right with a PMR diet. I was pretty much astounded, because, I'm sorry, but I've never once seen a wolf or dog in the wild running around chewing on a vitamin tablet! 

So, two weeks later, I had to come back for the rabbies vaccine and his last combination vaccine. I had talked to them previously and said that I do not agree with doing multiple vaccines at once, so they said that I could take the combo home and do it myself (I had no intentions of giving it, though, because he was already four months old). The vet, however, came into the room, and I explained to him how I wanted to do it, and he stood there and lectured me about how I needed to get it all done at once and how it wasn't dangerous and how blah, blah, blah. Now, I'm a weak willed person, so I just said to give it all to him, but I was SO pissed. I will NEVER go to that vet again, and if anyone ever talks about vets, I will BLATANTLY tell them to NEVER go to that vet. I'm SO disgusted by both encounters.


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## SerenityFL (Sep 28, 2010)

bumblegoat said:


> I agree about this too. Okay, I do have one thing I have trouble not putting in my mouth, and that is sugar, as I'm a sugar addict (something I'm constantly battling) but I really try to stay away from any low fat products or products filled with additives. The reason I stay away from low fat stuff is because they are usually loaded with additives, plus I don't think fat is bad you, at least not natural fats. I believe that to whole "saturated fat is bad for you"-hype is a huge scam.


Hey, I said that I had been "thinking" about it, not that I stopped eating my Peanut M&Ms every night while I read. Are you insane?! :biggrin:

But other than that, yah, been trying to eat food that is more natural...meaning, I have to actually get off my lazy backside and cook. And do the dishes afterwards. Sigh. Oh, and I've been eating a few more veggies...not a lot, but more.

Most nutritionists will tell you to eat whole, healthy foods, not to get the packaged garbage. If we eat naturally, why shouldn't our pets?


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## cprcheetah (Jul 14, 2010)

SerenityFL said:


> I completely agree. Ever since I started the pets on raw, I've been thinking more about what I put in to my own mouth. The more natural, the better.


Our Dr put my hubby and I on a grain free/sugar free diet in August (1 day before his 40th birthday). It has been a challenge, but we eat yummy things like Pizza (just have to make our own crust etc) using grain free flours etc. We had pumpkin cheesecake the other day. But I wanted to start eating healthier anyways once I started feeding the dogs raw...our Dr just cemented/forced the issue.


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

having done my own research.....i am ashamed at what docs don't know about nutrition, having been one....

i've concluded much of what is said here...

at our house, there is no junk, no grain, no dairy, no sugar, no starches.

we eat animals and fish and fowl and veggies and fruits....we eat plant oils...and animal fat in moderation.

my husband has gout and periodontal disease. his last check up was an improvement since we started this.

i have had two auto immune diseases and i am about to be diagnosed with lupus, crossing fingers they are wrong....

while i do not feel great...i do know that when we indulge in a treat that contains high salt, sugar, grains, etc...i feel like crap the next day....

that's my experiment...and i see it working in other ways....my joints don't hurt AS much....honey's teeth are not AS bad.....what we did most of our lives with crap food has come back to haunt us, much as it has our dogs.

since we changed and we changed our dogs to raw.....there are similar improvements to both species....my conclusion is that we do need to go back to the natural product...

have a treat on occasion and make your dinner plate 2/3 veggie and 1/3 whatever you want....eat fruit in the morning and have a greasy bacon and eggs on the weekend


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## SamWu1 (Oct 15, 2010)

Fresh, whole foods are good for any living creature. Mother's colostrum is critical for infant health. Excellent digestablity, perfect ratio of nutrients without excessiveness, Immunity boosting, the perfect food for infants.

Sounds a bit like raw for dogs doesn't it? :wink:


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## mischiefgrrl (Oct 28, 2010)

You might find this a funny way to answer concerns from others.

Today I was talking to an old friend and told her about feeding Tanis raw. She asked if I was concerned about bacteria and I told her about dog's natural enzymes etc; and then added "Think about it. A dog in the wild doesn't find meat and light up a fire to make kabobs. My dog has never asked me if I've got a match." She laughed really hard and agreed.


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## SerenityFL (Sep 28, 2010)

mischiefgrrl said:


> You might find this a funny way to answer concerns from others.
> 
> Today I was talking to an old friend and told her about feeding Tanis raw. She asked if I was concerned about bacteria and I told her about dog's natural enzymes etc; and then added "Think about it. A dog in the wild doesn't find meat and light up a fire to make kabobs. My dog has never asked me if I've got a match." She laughed really hard and agreed.


I get the same and I answer similarly but one person who constantly hammers the point that he doesn't like me feeding MY dogs raw, (like it's his business), states that we have domesticated them so much that we have changed their insides.

You can show him a book on dog anatomy, he will not be convinced that we have not changed their enzymes, stomach acids, digestive tracts, etc. :::rolls eyes:::

I guess it will be proven when my dogs have been eating raw for a few years and have zero problems. Maybe then he'll shut his yap about how I'm going to kill my dogs with worms and bacteria.


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## mischiefgrrl (Oct 28, 2010)

I get the same reaction about being a vegetarian from some people. I don't try to convert anyone but if asked, I tell them why and what the benefits are. I've had people insist that I cannot be healthy not eating a hamburger. Funny, but I feel fine. In fact, I feel great! I never feel overly stuffed after eating or sick or sluggish from a meal like I did when I ate meat and junk food. 

He'll be able to see the proof in your dog. Tanis is a gorgeous dog and gets attention everywhere he goes. He also doesn't stink like other dogs do anymore and neither does his poop :biggrin:



SerenityFL said:


> I get the same and I answer similarly but one person who constantly hammers the point that he doesn't like me feeding MY dogs raw, (like it's his business), states that we have domesticated them so much that we have changed their insides.
> 
> You can show him a book on dog anatomy, he will not be convinced that we have not changed their enzymes, stomach acids, digestive tracts, etc. :::rolls eyes:::
> 
> I guess it will be proven when my dogs have been eating raw for a few years and have zero problems. Maybe then he'll shut his yap about how I'm going to kill my dogs with worms and bacteria.


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