# Farmina Differences



## zootv (Mar 8, 2014)

I was just wondering about the differences in Food lines from Farmina, N&D Grain Free vs Ancestral Grain. Looking at the two fish products, if N&D is 37% crude protein and 95% of it comes from animal sources vs Ancestral at 30% crude protein with 92% coming from animal sources I am being in question if grain-free is worth the extra money.

If the quality of ingredients is the same going into both lines of food, is that much or should I say that little amount of grain going into the food caused for that much concern????

My mother used to breed shelties back in the 70-80s. She didn’t feed grain free back then and never had a dog with Kidney issues. I have 3 dogs develop some form of Amyloidosis in the past 5 years, all dying before the age of 6. All of those were on some form of grain-free food. Granted they were all rescue dogs, so I really don’t know their full history.

But it makes me question grain/grain-free and the possible marketing engine behind it …


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## MarieLovesChis (Mar 25, 2014)

What makes you think grains are bad at all? Grains are no worse than potatoes, peas, lentils, etc. As a matter of fact, I prefer a small amount of decent grains as opposed to some of the ingredients I just listed. Grains do not cause any harm to dogs. The only time I'd say grain free is truly necessary is if your dog actually has an intolerance or allergy to a certain grain. Even then I doubt any dog is allergic or has an intolerance to every grain available in dog food.

I jumped on the whole grain free bandwagon and honestly have no idea why lol. Funny my dog was a perfectly healthy dog on a grain inclusive food. I've been feeding her the "high quality" grain free foods for the past three years and she has struggled with being a bit overweight ever since. Of course I don't believe a lack of grains has messed with her weight, I just don't feel most of these "high quality" foods are formulated very well. Just my opinion. Two weeks on Farmina (yes my samples lasted her that long lol) and she lost 2 ounces. That's the most she's ever lost in the past three years (except for the time she starved herself over not liking a food).

In short, I believe the quality of the ingredients and nutrient profile makes a bigger difference as opposed to just "grain inclusive vs grain free".


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## PDXdogmom (Jun 30, 2010)

I do rotational feeding using grain-free formulas about 3/4 of the time and grain-inclusive the remaining 1/4. I make my decisions based on each individual formula. As more and more companies seem to be tweaking their grain free formulas to include chickpeas, lentils, peas, pea protein, etc. I'm finding some simple grain-inclusive formulas to be better formulated, IMO.

That is why I ordered a large bag of the Farmina Wild Cod & Ancestral Grain. The spelt and oatmeal as the carb sources seem well-chosen. I also think most dogs do better with 30% protein as opposed to super high protein like their grain-free at 37%. I probably would have ordered the ancestral grain formula even if it had cost more than the grain free.


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## zootv (Mar 8, 2014)

You both make very good points. I didn’t necessary went grain-free just because it was grain-free, but because I thought the formulation of those foods at the time were better than anything that had grain in it. So I just kind of had an out of sight out of mind mentality and pretty much just rotated grain-free foods. Now that Farmina has come along, it has made me rethink about it. Maybe more manufacturers will use better methods that include a better grain sources other than rice. 

Maybe I’ll get a bag of each and mix it and see how they do. My checking account would like the difference in price


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## Jacksons Mom (Jun 13, 2010)

I'm going to try both. I've honestly never fed a food to Jackson before that was above 33% protein. I'll see how he does on this bag of Wild Boar GF but think I may try a grain inclusive one next, just for the heck of it -- to see if he likes the taste as much and if he does just as well on it. It would save a few $$$. But I'm honestly not so much worried about price, with only one small dog anyway. That 5.5lb bag will last us over a month usually. Since I also mix in wet food for him. But I like that there is so many options so I can rotate around with him.


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## Simpson&Tiger (Mar 4, 2014)

I got my bag of Wild Cod & Ancestral grain yesterday. I was thrilled with the samples and how well my JRT reacted after a week of eating it. I did a cold turkey switch last night and have fed two meals already. Really impressed because I know how this dog usually reacts to anything different, even small amounts of something.


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## meggels (May 30, 2010)

I am using up Nutrisource Seafood Select with my frenchie...so mixing half Farmina Cod & Ancestral Grain with half the Nutrisource. His stools are already getting much better on just half an half (they weren't bad before, but a little soft or unformed for my liking).


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## bett (Mar 15, 2012)

grain free is worth the extra money if you have a dog that is sensitive to grain. even a little bit.


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## meggels (May 30, 2010)

bett said:


> grain free is worth the extra money if you have a dog that is sensitive to grain. even a little bit.


I think the chances of a dog being sensitive to 10% spelt and 10% oats is pretty small though. I see a lot of people in our store just assuming that their dog is sensitive to grain.


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## NewfieAussie (Feb 19, 2013)

ZooTv, I wondered the same thing. I ordered the Wild Cod with Ancestral Grain. Farmina is made with so much meat in all the formulas that I will try feeding the Ancestral Grain Formulas first. I am so thrilled that this high quality dog food is being sold in US.


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## LProf (Nov 12, 2013)

meggels said:


> I think the chances of a dog being sensitive to 10% spelt and 10% oats is pretty small though. I see a lot of people in our store just assuming that their dog is sensitive to grain.


I had believed that simply because whatever I had read or heard about dog food kibble preached "No grain", as an article of faith.

I recently started feeding a kibble with a small amount of grain, and, you know what, no issues at all. My dogs seem to be doing great on it. Go figure!


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## FarminaND (May 23, 2013)

PDXdogmom said:


> I do rotational feeding using grain-free formulas about 3/4 of the time and grain-inclusive the remaining 1/4. I make my decisions based on each individual formula. As more and more companies seem to be tweaking their grain free formulas to include chickpeas, lentils, peas, pea protein, etc. I'm finding some simple grain-inclusive formulas to be better formulated, IMO.
> 
> That is why I ordered a large bag of the Farmina Wild Cod & Ancestral Grain. The spelt and oatmeal as the carb sources seem well-chosen. I also think most dogs do better with 30% protein as opposed to super high protein like their grain-free at 37%. I probably would have ordered the ancestral grain formula even if it had cost more than the grain free.


We even mill the "spelt" and oats ourselves. And we don't mill it very fine, so you will see pieces of the oat groat.

By the way, we actually don't use spelt, we use Farro Piccolo but the translation to English is "spelt" and you cannot use non-English words in the ingredient list. Spelt is actually one variety that is not grown widely in Italy. The two grains Farro Piccolo and Farro Medio that are grown in Italy are different from each other but vastly different from true spelt. The "spelt" that is grown in USA is not spelt either it is usually Farro Medio.

Nothing wrong with spelt but thought I would explain.


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## zootv (Mar 8, 2014)

LProf said:


> I had believed that simply because whatever I had read or heard about dog food kibble preached "No grain", as an article of faith.
> 
> I recently started feeding a kibble with a small amount of grain, and, you know what, no issues at all. My dogs seem to be doing great on it. Go figure!


The grain food I have looked at all contained rice, until i read Farmina's ingredients. Now granted I didn't go looking a lot at food with grains in them. I try and stay away from rice from certain countries, even for my own consumption. Since it seems Farmina uses a good quality grain, I am definitely more inclined to try it.


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## PDXdogmom (Jun 30, 2010)

FarminaND said:


> We even mill the "spelt" and oats ourselves. And we don't mill it very fine, so you will see pieces of the oat groat.
> 
> By the way, we actually don't use spelt, we use Farro Piccolo but the translation to English is "spelt" and you cannot use non-English words in the ingredient list. Spelt is actually one variety that is not grown widely in Italy. The two grains Farro Piccolo and Farro Medio that are grown in Italy are different from each other but vastly different from true spelt. The "spelt" that is grown in USA is not spelt either it is usually Farro Medio.
> 
> jNothing wrong with spelt but thought I would explain.


I really appreciate your explanation. I wasn't aware of the differences. I actually have been experimenting with farro the past few months and put it in stews to cook after soaking it overnight; so I am not sure what variety I am using.

I found an interesting article on NPR about farro and they gave the following explanation: "Though we refer to farro as if it were one grain, it's actually three. There's farro piccolo (einkorn), farro medio (emmer), and farro grande (spelt). Emmer is what you'll find sold most often in the U.S. It's a harder grain than einkorn and is often confused with spelt, which is another type of grain altogether."

Anyway, glad that it is part of the Farmina Ancestral Grain formulas and am looking forward to receiving my first bag next week.


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## Shamrockmommy (Sep 10, 2009)

LProf said:


> I had believed that simply because whatever I had read or heard about dog food kibble preached "No grain", as an article of faith.
> 
> I recently started feeding a kibble with a small amount of grain, and, you know what, no issues at all. My dogs seem to be doing great on it. Go figure!


All of mine are now eating foods with some grain in them. Probably one would be described as "grain heavy." They are doing MUCH better than they were on grain free Fromm, 4Health, The Honest Kitchen, etc. MUCH better! 
I won't argue with results. Although for my own personal allergies I won't be able to feed wheat/corn based foods.


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## zootv (Mar 8, 2014)

Well I am going to try the Ancestral Cod and may also Petcureans Go! sensitivity + Shine duck, it also doesn't use rice but oatmeal and oats. Might be able to rotate those with my sensitive aussie.

Glad farmina explained the spelt. Google Farro Piccolo and find the wiki on spelt, interesting read ...


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## bett (Mar 15, 2012)

meggels said:


> I think the chances of a dog being sensitive to 10% spelt and 10% oats is pretty small though. I see a lot of people in our store just assuming that their dog is sensitive to grain.


well, that may be true, and time will tell, since i got a small bag of the cod for vangie's rotation . however, if you've never had a dog with a high eosinophil count, don't be surprised at anything they develop an intolerance to.
i assume nothing with any of my dogs, but KNOW about vangie. 
thus, the small bags and rotation of novel protein.


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## saya (Oct 25, 2010)

I got my herring sample today!  Saya liked the taste and ate the six pieces I gave. She isn't picky with much food give her an whole raw sardine, herring she'll eat that, kibble she'll eat that too. 

Saya is raw fed I only use kibble for eat to take along treat and sometimes as a small snack. 

I plan to get 5.5lb bag of the herring and eventually try the chicken grain one after the herring. 
Licking lips. yummy. 
<a href="http://s1319.photobucket.com/user/sayashiba/media/kibble/DSC_0039_zpsd3e83847.jpg.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://i1319.photobucket.com/albums/t679/sayashiba/kibble/DSC_0039_zpsd3e83847.jpg" border="0" alt=" photo DSC_0039_zpsd3e83847.jpg"/></a>

On the ingredients this is listed fiber vegetable of peas it's not listed on the farmina herring website for ingredients was this a mistake?
<a href="http://s1319.photobucket.com/user/sayashiba/media/kibble/DSC_0060_zps96f0ba26.jpg.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://i1319.photobucket.com/albums/t679/sayashiba/kibble/th_DSC_0060_zps96f0ba26.jpg" border="0" alt=" photo DSC_0060_zps96f0ba26.jpg" style=""></a>

Saya doesn't have issues with peas that I know of so no issue I was just wondering if anyone notice this on their bags of farmina of different formulas or if this is just with herring.


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## FarminaND (May 23, 2013)

saya said:


> I got my herring sample today!  Saya liked the taste and ate the six pieces I gave. She isn't picky with much food give her an whole raw sardine, herring she'll eat that, kibble she'll eat that too.
> 
> Saya is raw fed I only use kibble for eat to take along treat and sometimes as a small snack.
> 
> ...



The sample bags are too small to put ingredient stickers on. We tried but it just doesn't work and the sample bags crinkle when they are sealed making it almost impossible to read. So we skipped it. When the current inventory of samples bags are done the new ones have a printed panel with the USA formulas, just like the new large bags.

The USA formulas including the samples do not have pea fiber. Please use the website Farmina Pet Foods - Happy pet. Happy You. | Happy pet. Happy you. to view the ingredients and GA. There are also a few minor changes like a different form of selenium and the removal of supplemental glucosamine and chondroitin. These items were removed because they are not allowed in pet food in the USA. Ciao.


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## zootv (Mar 8, 2014)

Well all of my 3 dogs are on at least a portion of Farmina. My oldest dog is on 1/3 Cod Ancestral and 2/3 now Fresh Senior. The other 2 are on 2/3 of a 50/50 mix of Cod Ancestral and herring GF, and 1/3 of Go!.

I can say all 3 dogs have great stools, less dry skin, less gas and more energy all around. I am a little nervous switch the senior over to 100% farmina as it might be too much protein for him. Anyone else see a change in energy levels?


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## PDXdogmom (Jun 30, 2010)

My 6 year old lab is eating 100% the Wild Cod & Ancestral Grain. It was a very smooth transition. She loves the food; has good stool and it seems like her coat and skin are even improving although they weren't bad before. I don't see a change in her energy level but labs typically are pretty energetic most of the time.

My 13 year old golden is on 50/50 of the Wild Cod and Pinnacle Grain free Salmon. I am not concerned about the 30% protein in the Farmina since it appears to be of good quality with phosphorus levels below 1% and relatively low ash.


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## Jacksons Mom (Jun 13, 2010)

I think I'm going to start feeding the Ancestral Grain. I agree I like that it's a grain inclusive food unlike no other; there's no rice, and it's not SUPER "grain heavy" in general, plus the Cod sample we have, Jackson is just loving. I didn't think he would so it was pleasantly surprised. The 37% protein in the GF Boar (which is the 5.5lb bag we have) makes me a tad... nervous? Not really nervous, but I'm just not sure it's necessary for my little 17lb guy. We'll finish the bag but I think the Ancestral Grain ones will do us just fine.


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## MarieLovesChis (Mar 25, 2014)

I picked the Ancestral Grain for the exact same reason. I felt the 30% protein was plenty enough for my little Chihuahua who isn't exactly an athlete. I figured paying for 37% just wasn't at all necessary. Plus I think Onyx may have some kind of intolerance to potato.

I noticed when Onyx was healthiest it was when she was eating a lower protein grain inclusive food. She's been "flabby" on all of the high protein foods, not extremely overweight though. I think it's just too much when she's not putting any of that protein to use. The Ancestral Grain formulas seemed like a good happy medium. I didn't want high protein but wasn't trying to go low like 20% or something. So far she's still steadily losing weight, all extra fat, so I'm happy. Now just have my fingers crossed that she won't start itching on this food and get red skin again. She's actually been a whole lot less itchy since starting it though so I think we're good :thumb:


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## LProf (Nov 12, 2013)

How much are you folks feeding your dog? 

My Pug is a few pounds over what I would like him to weigh. He weighs 22 1/2 pounds and I would like him at no more then 20 pounds. 

I am feeding the Ancestral Grain Cod, and based upon what Farmina suggested, I have been feeding him 1/3 cup twice a day, and throwing in some cut green beans to have him feel more full and satisfied.

He has been fully transitioned to the food for about two weeks now, and, just eyeballing him I don't see any weight loss yet, although i have not actually brought him to the vet for a weight check. I am afraid that if I cut him back on the kibble any further, he will be one very hungry and unhappy Pug.


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## Jacksons Mom (Jun 13, 2010)

LProf said:


> How much are you folks feeding your dog?
> 
> My Pug is a few pounds over what I would like him to weigh. He weighs 22 1/2 pounds and I would like him at no more then 20 pounds.
> 
> ...


Jackson is about 17lbs or so. He gets 1/2 cup per day of kibble. 1/4 in AM, 1/4 in PM, usually one (or sometimes both) meals are mixed with a spoonful of Earthborn wet food. But he also gets treats for training and will chew on the occasional bully stick, or have a Dentastix at night. So I try to account for those calories as well.


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## MarieLovesChis (Mar 25, 2014)

Well my dog is only about 8 pounds. I'd like to see her at about 7 pounds 12 ounces. She only eats around 20grams of the Farmina mixed with an ounce of canned food. She gets this split into three meals a day. Her metabolism is quite literally non existent, any more than this and she won't lose, even with her daily exercise. If I fed only Farmina, she would get a little over 1/4 cup. Ridiculous I know.

Once she's down to her ideal weight I will be able to increase her daily amount to maintain. Basically I go by her calories needed though, not how many cups to feed.


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## PDXdogmom (Jun 30, 2010)

My lab is 55 lbs. so the quantity I feed her won't relate much to the rest of you with the smaller dogs. I will say that I am feeding slightly more of the Farmine N&D Wild Cod than I did of her other kibbles which generally ran at the 410 kcal/cup rather than the 379 kcal/cup of Farmina. So she is eating a total of 2 1/2 cups per day.and is a moderately active dog that doesn't need to lose any weight. That is not the top amount suggested on the feeding chart for her size but I think she might gain weight if I did. 

I like to wait a month after a full transition to a new food before I start adjusting the quantity too much - unless I was noticing drastic weight loss or gain.


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## FarminaND (May 23, 2013)

PDXdogmom said:


> My lab is 55 lbs. so the quantity I feed her won't relate much to the rest of you with the smaller dogs. I will say that I am feeding slightly more of the Farmine N&D Wild Cod than I did of her other kibbles which generally ran at the 410 kcal/cup rather than the 379 kcal/cup of Farmina. So she is eating a total of 2 1/2 cups per day.and is a moderately active dog that doesn't need to lose any weight. That is not the top amount suggested on the feeding chart for her size but I think she might gain weight if I did.
> 
> I like to wait a month after a full transition to a new food before I start adjusting the quantity too much - unless I was noticing drastic weight loss or gain.


The calorie differential is due to the size and shape of the kibble. Fewer pieces fit in the cup, but there are more cups in the bag.


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## PDXdogmom (Jun 30, 2010)

FarminaND said:


> *The calorie differential is due to the size and shape of the kibble*. Fewer pieces fit in the cup, but there are more cups in the bag.


So, essentially you're saying that each piece of Farmina kibble may be as nutrient/calorie dense as other kibble I've fed such as Fromm; but due to the large shape and space gaps when filling up a cup, I simply need to measure out more of the Farmina. It does make sense.


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## LProf (Nov 12, 2013)

PDXdogmom said:


> So, essentially you're saying that each piece of Farmina kibble may be as nutrient/calorie dense as other kibble I've fed such as Fromm; but due to the large shape and space gaps when filling up a cup, I simply need to measure out more of the Farmina. It does make sense.


That is not my understanding. Farmina, please clarify this.


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## MarieLovesChis (Mar 25, 2014)

LProf said:


> That is not my understanding. Farmina, please clarify this.


I don't think there's much to explain, the kibble is bigger so therefore there's less in a cup.

Okay I have good example. Orijen states 1 cup of their food is about 120 grams. Farmina states 1 cup of the Wild Cod is 100 grams. This of course means there is going to be more calories per cup in the Orijen as their is a lot more food in the cup. Just because you feed a little over a cup of the Farmina doesn't actually mean you're feeding more of it.


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## PDXdogmom (Jun 30, 2010)

MarieLovesChis said:


> I don't think there's much to explain, the kibble is bigger so therefore there's less in a cup.
> 
> Okay I have good example. Orijen states 1 cup of their food is about 120 grams. Farmina states 1 cup of the Wild Cod is 100 grams. This of course means there is going to be more calories per cup in the Orijen as their is a lot more food in the cup. Just because you feed a little over a cup of the Farmina doesn't actually mean you're feeding more of it.


Hmmm . . . so the important information is the number of calories in comparing the same weight in two formulas as opposed to comparing the same volume.


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## MarieLovesChis (Mar 25, 2014)

Yes, that's always how I've found it easiest. I always weigh out my dog's food anyway. The calories per kg is the easier way to compare as opposed to calories per cup.

Edit: Another good example of how calories per cups isn't best for comparison. Just looked at Onyx's old Nature's Logic bag. It lists 403 calories per cup. Her current Farmina bag lists 380 per cup. The NL has 3653 calories per kg where as the Farmina has 3800 calories per kg.

Not a huge difference but I'd have to feed a few more grams of the NL even though it has more calories per cup.


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## zootv (Mar 8, 2014)

I do not weigh, but measure based on calories. Don’t have that much time with 3 doggies. 

So my border was on 435 kcal/cup, twice daily so his total would be 870 a day (or 2 cups) to maintain current weight. With his 50/50 mix of farmina (GF & AC Fish) that would be 787 a day using the same measurements. Technically I should be feed him 2.2 cups of Farmina and that _should_ maintain his weight. However I will still only feed him the 2 cups and short him 83 calories and if he loses weight I can always add some food. It is a pain if he gains weight, much harder to get it off. 

As for weighing it, I could see if you had 1 or 2 dogs that would be ok to do and more accurate. Luckily for me that old food still had more kcal/kg than farmina, so feeding the same should yield same results.


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## MarieLovesChis (Mar 25, 2014)

Yea thing is I wasn't saying weighing it is the best way to feed. I simply absolutely have to weigh my dog's food because if I'm off by just a tad, she rapidly gains weight.

I was only saying the only true way to compare calories is by weight (calories per kg).


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## Celt (Dec 27, 2010)

as most kinder kids learn, what you fill a container with determines how much of an item you will get. you'll squeeze fewer large/awkward shapes into a cup than small/"smoother" (especially round) shapes. but an ounce is an ounce no matter what. like the old "riddle" which is heavier a pound of feathers or a pound of rocks.


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## zootv (Mar 8, 2014)

MarieLovesChis said:


> Yea thing is I wasn't saying weighing it is the best way to feed. I simply absolutely have to weigh my dog's food because if I'm off by just a tad, she rapidly gains weight.
> 
> I was only saying the only true way to compare calories is by weight (calories per kg).


I agree with you, especially with smaller dogs your margin of error can have a greater impact


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## zootv (Mar 8, 2014)

Celt said:


> as most kinder kids learn, what you fill a container with determines how much of an item you will get. you'll squeeze fewer large/awkward shapes into a cup than small/"smoother" (especially round) shapes. but an ounce is an ounce no matter what. like the old "riddle" which is heavier a pound of feathers or a pound of rocks.


LOL yeah you know what irks me the most is baking receipes here in the states... most countries list their recipes by weight, especially baking which is both a science and art. US recipes are all in cups, which tends to lead to a lot of errors. For example a pound of flour sifted is still a pound before and after it is sifted. A cup of flour and a sifted cup are 2 different amounts.


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