# Bacteria in poop?



## LilasMom

So Lila went in to have a vaccine and because she is so tiny they let her stay for a few hours for observation. Anyways, she had some diarrhea there and they ran some tests and found a bit higher than normal bacteria or something like that. They tried to send me home with some Iams gastro-something (LOL) but just gave me some medicine and a probiotic. The probiotic is called fort-flora and is by Purina which makes me not want to give it to her. They also gave me panacur and metronidazole susp. 100mg/ml (?). 

What is everyones thoughts on this? I really don't trust the Purina brand so I am wary about the forti flora.


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## LilasMom

Just read forti-flora ingredients, will NOT be giving this to her. I will find some different probiotics. Can anyone recommend a human brand?


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## Kibblelady

LilasMom said:


> So Lila went in to have a vaccine and because she is so tiny they let her stay for a few hours for observation. Anyways, she had some diarrhea there and they ran some tests and found a bit higher than normal bacteria or something like that. They tried to send me home with some Iams gastro-something (LOL) but just gave me some medicine and a probiotic. The probiotic is called fort-flora and is by Purina which makes me not want to give it to her. They also gave me panacur and metronidazole susp. 100mg/ml (?).
> 
> What is everyones thoughts on this? I really don't trust the Purina brand so I am wary about the forti flora.



What kind of "bacteria" are we talking about here? Those are some heavy meds...Panacur of course being a very good broad wormer and Flagyl can kill some nasties, it also helps sooth the GI tract..Did they say anything about Giardia? I think the flagyl can have some heavy side effects so watch the pupper. What are they saying they found or is wrong with her? I know people have things they do not want to give their dog, sometimes though we can suck it up IMO... the Purina product is designed to help...just any ole' probiotic product may not duplicate the effects of that product. Call the vet and ask for alternatives before changing it IMO. Many can be found online.


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## magicre

:usa::usa::usa::usa::usa:


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## LilasMom

No let me call and ask right now. Be right back!

Okay so the vet tech looked at her file and said they found cocci and rods, not really sure what that means?


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## BearMurphy

that's just a description of the bacteria but is not specific enough to tell you what she shed in her stool

did she have diarrhea because she was stressed or has she been having issues lately?

If she is raw fed she is probably healthy enough to withstand some bacteria in her digestive system but there may be a natural alternative to those harsh treatments they are trying to give her. for example I use grapefruit see extract (thank to liz!) as a bacteria preventative when I take murphy swimming to untested lakes


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## LilasMom

I personally think it was stress induced. Car rides make her extremely anxious, and I think the vet was just too much for her nerves to handle so she pooped lol. She had been fine up until the vet visit, no vomiting or anything. I am returning the forti flora tomorrow, but maybe I can return the other stuff too. I mean, doesn't all poop have bacteria in it?


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## Liz

Lilasmom, please return that stuff. Primal Defense Ultra is a great probiotic and we have some on hand at all times. If you can find out what you are dealing with say coccidia, giardia, etc. Send me a PM and there are holistic ways to go about clearing her system.


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## LilasMom

I still don't know what we are dealing with. I wish I had asked more when I picked her up but I hadn't eaten and wasn't in the clearest state of mind lol. I haven't given her anything, I will be waiting until I hear more. She has been acting 100% normal since the vet and is now rolling in circles on the floor (her favorite after dinner activity), so I doubt she is sick but I will know by tomorrow. I will also pick up some primal defense. 

Silly question:
Would a raw fed dog have more bacteria in their poop than a kibble fed dog? I don't doubt a raw fed dogs stomach could handle the bacteria, but maybe the levels were just higher than she normally sees or something?


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## LilasMom

I am looking at the ingredients of the "bland food" they tried to send me home with, and I am laughing out loud! What is blander, a chicken back or 

Chicken Broth, Chicken, Whitefish, Brewer's Rice, Corn Grits, Chicken Liver, Beef By-Products, Chicken By-Products, Fish Meal, Dried Egg Product, Dried Beet Pulp, Chicken By-Product Meal, Fish Oil (preserved with mixed Tocopherols, a source of Vitamin E), Fructooligosaccharides, Potassium Chloride, Calcium Carbonate, Monosodium Phosphate, Vitamins (Vitamin E Supplement, Ascorbic Acid, Thiamine Mononitrate [source of Vitamin B1], Calcium Pantothenate, Biotin, Vitamin B12 Supplement, Niacin, Riboflavin Supplement [source of Vitamin B2], Inositol, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride [source of Vitamin B6], Vitamin D3 Supplement, Folic Acid), Salt, DL-Methionine, Choline Chloride, Mannanoligosaccharides, Minerals (Ferrous Sulfate, Zinc Oxide, Manganese Sulfate, Copper Sulfate, Manganous Oxide, Potassium Iodide, Cobalt Carbonate), Dicalcium Phosphate?

Sorry just had to vent lol


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## Scarlett_O'

LilasMom said:


> I still don't know what we are dealing with. I wish I had asked more when I picked her up but I hadn't eaten and wasn't in the clearest state of mind lol. I haven't given her anything, I will be waiting until I hear more. She has been acting 100% normal since the vet and is now rolling in circles on the floor (her favorite after dinner activity), so I doubt she is sick but I will know by tomorrow. I will also pick up some primal defense.
> 
> Silly question:
> Would a raw fed dog have more bacteria in their poop than a kibble fed dog? I don't doubt a raw fed dogs stomach could handle the bacteria, but maybe the levels were just higher than she normally sees or something?


Where you there with her when she had this "diarrhea"??
If not I would doubt it was diarrhea...I would guess just loose stool due to stress and/or MAYBE what ever she had eaten before!:wink:

How old is she? How long has she been on raw and what did she eat before the vet appointment?


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## LilasMom

She had it right as they put her in the cage so they brought the towel out to show me. It was a bit black and tar-y. She is about 2 and a half, has been on raw since february of this year, and had one raw egg for dinner last night, and accidentally ate a tiny piece of queso fresco, and didn't eat anything before the vets today. She also had another poop soon after getting home that I forgot to mention (thought I wrote it down, but guess not hwell: ), that was also loose and liquid-y. I think there was the slightest tinge of red too, but I don't know for sure.


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## Scarlett_O'

LilasMom said:


> She had it right as they put her in the cage so they brought the towel out to show me. It was a bit black and tar-y. She is about 2 and a half, has been on raw since february of this year, and had one raw egg for dinner last night, and accidentally ate a tiny piece of queso fresco, and didn't eat anything before the vets today. She also had another poop soon after getting home that I forgot to mention (thought I wrote it down, but guess not hwell: ), that was also loose and liquid-y. I think there was the slightest tinge of red too, but I don't know for sure.


Sounds to me like stress induced loose stool(Dixi gets it when she is super stressed)...but that is my thought.
I would go by what ever Liz tells you...she is AMAZING!!:biggrin:


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## lily

These little dogs have very strange systems ,betsy is doing great ,poops excellent but if she gets over excited then she will do a very runny poop !,so perhaps stress related due to vets visit/car ride,,karen


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## magicre

:usa::usa::usa::usa::usa:


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## magicre

:usa::usa::usa::usa::usa:


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## Chocx2

My female get nervous poops also, I use to freek, but now I know that its just what happens to her and it passes. I use Dr. Beckers probiotics they are ok and if its really bad I have some from the vet, who is my friend, and those work in one does so I use them in emergencies. I can only get them from her because you need a scrip for them. 
I sent that study to my friend about the raw bacteria, her comments was it depends on who is paying for the study, and I also agree with you about what kind of raw was fed.


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## magicre

:usa::usa::usa::usa::usa:


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## magicre

:usa::usa::usa::usa::usa:


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## LilasMom

She hasn't pooped her dinner yet today so hopefully that will be back to normal. I am going to the vets right now to return the forti flora, and hopefully the rest of the meds. I just don't feel right about them for some reason. I really do feel like this is stress induced. The last time she had poops like that was when she first started sleeping in her crate and was scared. 

I am so proud to feed raw and will not deny it, but it is scary sometimes having to tell that to a vet! I am only 20 and it is nerve-wracking telling the vet that I don't agree or would like to try something different. But who else is going to speak for up Lila? She's only got me lol.


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## Kibblelady

LilasMom said:


> No let me call and ask right now. Be right back!
> 
> Okay so the vet tech looked at her file and said they found cocci and rods, not really sure what that means?


It's Coccidia. I was thinking of that yesterday but the name escaped me... here is some information Coccidia (Coccidiosis) in Dogs: A Cause of Diarrhea

Just wanted to add that most of the breeders I know always give Albon specifically for this protozoan. I am not exactly sure what effect the cocci it could have on a small 2 yr old dog...? I guess it depends on the load she is carrying and her symptoms.


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## Kibblelady

LilasMom said:


> I am looking at the ingredients of the "bland food" they tried to send me home with, and I am laughing out loud! What is blander, a chicken back or
> 
> Chicken Broth, Chicken, Whitefish, Brewer's Rice, Corn Grits, Chicken Liver, Beef By-Products, Chicken By-Products, Fish Meal, Dried Egg Product, Dried Beet Pulp, Chicken By-Product Meal, Fish Oil (preserved with mixed Tocopherols, a source of Vitamin E), Fructooligosaccharides, Potassium Chloride, Calcium Carbonate, Monosodium Phosphate, Vitamins (Vitamin E Supplement, Ascorbic Acid, Thiamine Mononitrate [source of Vitamin B1], Calcium Pantothenate, Biotin, Vitamin B12 Supplement, Niacin, Riboflavin Supplement [source of Vitamin B2], Inositol, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride [source of Vitamin B6], Vitamin D3 Supplement, Folic Acid), Salt, DL-Methionine, Choline Chloride, Mannanoligosaccharides, Minerals (Ferrous Sulfate, Zinc Oxide, Manganese Sulfate, Copper Sulfate, Manganous Oxide, Potassium Iodide, Cobalt Carbonate), Dicalcium Phosphate?
> 
> Sorry just had to vent lol



Actually they are both bland....


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## Kibblelady

Kibblelady said:


> It's Coccidia. I was thinking of that yesterday but the name escaped me... here is some information Coccidia (Coccidiosis) in Dogs: A Cause of Diarrhea
> 
> Just wanted to add that most of the breeders I know always give Albon specifically for this protozoan. I am not exactly sure what effect the cocci it could have on a small 2 yr old dog...? I guess it depends on the load she is carrying and her symptoms.



Oops my bad...I was mistaken about this... actually it appears certain gram positive bacteria are called "cocci" Found this on Wiki 

Most pathogens in humans are Gram-positive organisms. In the classical sense, six Gram-positive genera are typically pathogenic in humans. Two of these, _Streptococcus_ and _Staphylococcus_, are cocci (sphere-shaped bacteria). The remaining organisms are bacilli (rod-shaped bacteria) and can be subdivided based on their ability to form spores. The non-spore formers are _Corynebacterium_ and _Listeria_ (a coccobacillus), whereas _Bacillus_ and _Clostridium_ produce spores.[SUP][12][/SUP] The spore-forming bacteria can again be divided based on their respiration: _Bacillus_ is a facultative anaerobe, while _Clostridium_ is an obligate anaerobe.

Here you can see what they look like, these are from urine Infectious agents

There are many links online about this and it is making me dizzy, the most common issue appears it may be strep? I would ask the vet how off the mark her level was because these bacteria are normally present but when high show the system out of balance which leads to loose stools.


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## Liz

How is your pup doing today? Is she still having loose stools? Were you able to find out what bacteria they were talking about? Giardia and coccidia are easily treatable holistically and if it was just stress that is workable too.


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## magicre

:usa::usa::usa::usa::usa:


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## LilasMom

Okay so she hasn't pooped yet, but I went to the vet and they said there was higher than "normal" cocci and there was also clostridium like Kibblelady mentioned.


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## Liz

lilas mom - did you want to treat holistically for the coccidia or are you going with traditional meds. if you need help with the holistic just send me a PM and i will get that for you.


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## LilasMom

Holistic


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## Liz

Oh vey! I missed this, she went in for a vaccine???? Girl, how did I miss this - my only excuse is I am on drugs for an oral infection. On the protocol I gave you please do the bovine colostrum daily for 12 weeks not 2 and definitely do the 14 days of Grapefruit Seed Extract - oh be sure it is *Grape Fruit Seed* not Grape Seed. Also add one drop of the grapefruit seed extract to her drinking water for the next 12 weeks. please


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## LilasMom

Okay, grapefruit seed extract, 2 weeks and bovine colostrum, 12 weeks. Her and Jack share the same drinking water, is it okay for him to drink too? Should I continue our normal Fish oil and ACV supplements during this?


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## Liz

Sure thing the fish oil and ACV are great and the grape fruit seed in the water is just a little extra preventative and won't harm him at all.  We put it in the water here in spring as we get some wildlife coming through at night and lots of birds. We haven't had coccidia or giardia in ages.


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## LilasMom

Okay perfect! I bought some Primal Defense, some liquid grapefruit seed extract, and some bovine colostrum (brands: garden of life, nutribiotic, symbiotics). How much of each should I give her daily?


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## Liz

perfect - Grapefruit Seed Extract - 2 drops per five pounds of body weight twice per day for 14 days (put in food or something as it is very bitter)
Primal Defense Ultra - one capsule per day for at least 12 weeks to rebuild gut flora
colostrum - One capsule per day for at least 12 weeks helps rebuild the immune system and repair tissue damage and hopefully will help mitigate vaccine issues. 

What was she vaccinated for by the way?


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## LilasMom

Thank you! 

They actually didn't end up giving her the vaccination because of the bacteria, but she was supposed to get her distemper one I think. BUT she did have her rabies vaccination two weeks ago so I figured I would go ahead and do the colostrum. A little late, but it can't hurt her. I would have gotten it sooner had I known about it! I always space apart the vaccines but I didn't know there were things she could take to hopefully prevent any issues. They want her back in two weeks to have the distemper vaccine, should I continue the colostrum until 12 weeks after that? The vet said we could do titer testing the next time she is due for vaccines, which I think he said was three years.


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## Liz

Yes, yes please. I would definitely titre. I can't imagine her needing shots in 3 years again. You might want to wait closer to three weeks for the vaccine and take a stool sample in with you so they can check and make sure all the coccidia is gone. sometimes it takes a second course but it sometimes takes multiple courses with traditional meds and Grapefruit Seed Extract won't compromise her immune system.


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## LilasMom

Okay I will make an appointment closer to the end of August then. Do I tell my vet that I didn't use the medications they gave me? I don't see how it would be harmful in just saying she took them to avoid confrontation. Is that a crazy thought? The younger vet tech sort of looked at me like I was crazy when I said "Oh, I don't feel comfortable feeding animal digest" and refused the forti flora even after she said "it was designed especially for dogs so it might not work as well as a human probiotic", I don't think it would go over well if I didn't give the prescribed antibiotics.


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## LilasMom

Liz said:


> perfect - Grapefruit Seed Extract - 2 drops per five pounds of body weight twice per day for 14 days (put in food or something as it is very bitter)
> Primal Defense Ultra - one capsule per day for at least 12 weeks to rebuild gut flora
> colostrum - One capsule per day for at least 12 weeks helps rebuild the immune system and repair tissue damage and hopefully will help mitigate vaccine issues.
> 
> What was she vaccinated for by the way?


Oops I didn't get the Primal Defense Ultra, I got just the Primal Defense HSO Probiotic Formula (http://www.gardenoflife.com/Product...th/PrimalDefensesupsup/tabid/638/Default.aspx). I can return and get Ultra if necessary.

Also, do I give the whole capsule? According to bottle, that would be 480 mg of colostrum.


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## Liz

Primal Defense is fine also - for future the Ultra is about the same price and just a little bit nicer. Yes give one capsule full of each it will be fine. 
I wouldn't say anything about the meds just ask for a recheck to be sure it is taken care of.


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## LilasMom

I have to go return something at the store tomorrow so I can switch the probiotics to the Ultra then.

Okay I am off to give Lila a snack so she can take her all her new stuff. Thank you!


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## monster'sdad

LilasMom said:


> Just read forti-flora ingredients, will NOT be giving this to her. I will find some different probiotics. Can anyone recommend a human brand?


Human probiotics DO NOT WORK. Forti-Flora does work because it is an actual LIVE canine strain. In fact, it is the only one that does work.

Stop playing vet, for your dog's sake. How did a house dog get those bugs to begin with?


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## monster'sdad

Liz said:


> How is your pup doing today? Is she still having loose stools? Were you able to find out what bacteria they were talking about? Giardia and coccidia are easily treatable holistically and if it was just stress that is workable too.


Prove that.....


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## LilasMom

monster'sdad said:


> Human probiotics DO NOT WORK. Forti-Flora does work because it is an actual LIVE canine strain. *In fact, it is the only one that does work.*
> 
> Stop playing vet, for your dog's sake. How did a *house dog* get those bugs to begin with?


I am sure many people here would disagree with that statement. People on this forum have used human-grade probiotics with success.

She may have gotten them because she goes outside where other dogs go. She goes outside several times a day for exercise and potty breaks. And even if she didn't go outside, bacteria is everywhere, I could have brought it in on my shoe or something.


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## monster'sdad

LilasMom said:


> I am sure many people here would disagree with that statement.


Listen, you see like a nice person, but I am gonna give you some frank advice. Coccidia in an adult is extremely rare and very dangerous for a small dog, especially if she has giardia with it. 

Don't screw around with her. Let your vet take care of her. There is only one reason why some remedies are called "alternative medicine", it is because they don't work, plain and simple. If they did every vet would use them.

As for Forti-Flora, it works because it is a native strain that can survive and colonize.

Adult dogs don't get coccidia from going outside. It is an immune system problem, if that is what she has.

Do what is best for her, not you. Your vet should be in charge of this, not someone that plays Vet on the internet.


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## LilasMom

monster'sdad said:


> Listen, you see like a nice person, but I am gonna give you some frank advice. Coccidia in an adult is extremely rare and very dangerous for a small dog, especially if she has giardia with it.
> 
> Don't screw around with her. Let your vet take care of her. There is only one reason why some remedies are called "alternative medicine", it is because they don't work, plain and simple. If they did every vet would use them.
> 
> As for Forti-Flora, it works because it is a native strain that can survive and colonize.


I never said she had coccidia or giardia. She just had higher than normal levels of bacteria in her stool. Alternative does not mean that is doesn't work, that is such an ignorant statement. They DO work, and vets don't use them because they would get no money for it. There are holistic vets out there who would prescribe natural alternatives to antibiotics. 

Also, I am offended that you would say I am screwing around with her. I consider her as pretty much my daughter and would NEVER screw around with her life. Everything I do with her I think about, consider the options, pros, cons, short term vs long term, and then make my decision. Her life is in my hands and I make my decisions with that in mind.


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## RedneckCowgirl

monster'sdad said:


> Do what is best for her, not you. Your vet should be in charge of this, not someone that plays Vet on the internet.


Wow. That member who "plays vet" is VERY well respected here and frankly the results speak for themselves. If you don't agree with holistics then you are more than welcome to say so, (however the OP has asked for holistic alternatives) but resulting to insults is not ok


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## Liz

Everyone has their beliefs and i don't argue. I don't offer holistic remedies I personally have not used. People tend to be afraid of what they do not understand. if someone asked what we have done I will tell them and they are of course free to choose their course. Thank you for the defense ******* Cowgirl but don't get up in arms - I am not. To each his own.


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## LilasMom

monster'sdad said:


> Do what is best for her, not you. Your vet should be in charge of this, not someone that plays Vet on the internet.


At what point did I come across as doing this for myself? I will repeat myself: 

I consider her as pretty much my daughter and would NEVER screw around with her life. Everything I do with her I think about, consider the options, pros, cons, short term vs long term, and then make my decision. *Her life is in my hands and I make my decisions with that in mind.*


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## Liz

Lilasmom, I hope you don't feel pressured to use holistic methods, I will not be insulted. I hope I don't come across as pushing you. My only goal is helping you if that is the path you choose. I think you know this. Many people believe if you choose an alternative to traditional medicine it is because you are too cheap to go to a vet, or uneducated. This is not so. It takes effort and dedication to treat your pet or child for that matter holistically and knowledge to do it correctly. I applaud you for you desire to learn different methods and your openness. I also respect your choices for your beloved pet. 

Monster is totally correct in that adults generally do not get coccidia unless they are immune compromised. This is why the colostrum or probiotics are necessary as either the vaccinations she has previously received or the stress has compromised her so that she was more susceptible to a high bacteria count. Primal Defense Ultra works very well on canines and cats as a matter of fact and bovine colostrum is a gem. JMO


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## Liz

Monster you are coming across very angry and i really do not see the issue. No one is pressuring you or anyone else to do anything. Believe me no matter what I would never suggest alternative care to you or anyone who had no interest or desire to use it or learn more, I have bitten my tongue many times because an alternative was not asked for. At the same time I will not take the time to prove anything to you as I have no interest in changing your mind. Everything I say will be stated to be anecdotal evidence and i really don't have the time to waste. Have a great day.


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## Kibblelady

Hmm, my thoughts here are also to wondering why an adult dog would have a high level of coccidia... usually this is a problem for puppies or even immune compromised dogs.. their natural immune system usually keeps it in check. So I am kind of wondering why she is colonizing this bug? (It is also very contagious, just thought you should know) Everyday common treatment for this was prescribed to you and while I do not agree with the other frank poster I kinda see what he is getting at. I use holistic things...I believe in a number of them but each situation has to be handled in its own way. I get the feeling you are not trusting your vet with this and that is kinda what makes it a little "dangerous." No vet is perfectly right, of course not. But to think a veterinarian that has spent their life studying something and loving animals would withhold a treatment in order to make money is insulting to the veterinary profession IMO. Of course these are two different treatment types...your vet is obviously conventional and that is what he will recommend, if you want holistic treatment go to a holistic veterinarian IMO I have done this in the past. I have nothing against Liz, I don't even know her and am not familiar with her but I assume she is not a veterinarian? If it were my dog, and so little, I would be using a veterinarian to sort this out, not a message board  (No offense intended to anyone) Potentially this could be nothing at all...or it could become very, very life threatening in such a small dog very quickly. Personally as I said I have known many many breeders for years who treat with Albon for coccidia but, big but, your vet may have not gone with that due to your dog's size.... you have to give your vet a chance, isn't that what you are paying him for? If you do not want a conventional vet find a holistic vet is my opinion and advice. Believe me I know *a lot* about dogs, their problems and how to treat them...simple things I can deal with...a cut... skin problem..etc something out of my league is OUT of my league and I go to a vet, that is their field not mine.

On another note, I just printed out a crap load of information for my vet about DMG yesterday, she is very excited and interested to see it (man I looove these new vets!) The owner even supports flower essences, I don't but he feels whatever "helps" helps, I guess even if it is just the owner (he did not say that, I did) He also sent us down to Shopright to get Emma's antibiotic as it was free there and he felt that was better than charging us for it....no greed here.... pricy? Naa not so much, average I would say but so so worth it, you get what you pay for and I found that out with Dr Jerk.

Anyway....please work *with* your vet, please do *not* lie and say you used the meds, that can complicate things.. (if this gets worse they will think those meds did not work and will need to do a blood test to see what the bacteria is sensitive to...as well as use stronger medications) Just explain your worries, explain your concerns and try and work together. If you cannot do that? IMO you need a new vet...

JMHO


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## RedneckCowgirl

Kibblelady, here is how I see it:

Say you are a very strict vegan. It is honestly how you believe you should eat and live, you've seen multiple, wonderful results from people who have switched. You did your research, and you are very healthy, but you get sick anyways (hey, it happens!) and you go to your doctor, where he prescribes a non-vegan medicine. You can treat your illness (now that you know what it is) 100% holistically without compromising your way of life, so you do that instead of taking the Dr. prescribed meds.

I could be wrong, but that is how I see it :smile:


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## LilasMom

Liz said:


> Lilasmom, I hope you don't feel pressured to use holistic methods, I will not be insulted. I hope I don't come across as pushing you. My only goal is helping you if that is the path you choose. I think you know this. Many people believe if you choose an alternative to traditional medicine it is because you are too cheap to go to a vet, or uneducated. This is not so. It takes effort and dedication to treat your pet or child for that matter holistically and knowledge to do it correctly. I applaud you for you desire to learn different methods and your openness. I also respect your choices for your beloved pet.
> 
> Monster is totally correct in that adults generally do not get coccidia unless they are immune compromised. This is why the colostrum or probiotics are necessary as either the vaccinations she has previously received or the stress has compromised her so that she was more susceptible to a high bacteria count. Primal Defense Ultra works very well on canines and cats as a matter of fact and bovine colostrum is a gem. JMO


I absolutely do NOT feel pressured. I am so glad that you offered your advice on natural remedies, I would not have known what to do, nor would I have known about using the colostrum when giving vaccines. You have been very helpful, not pushy.

And I am not being cheap if anyone thinks I am! I would not have spent almost $100 dollars in just supplements lol! Not including the very expensive meds that I did not return. 

I have always loved learning new things, especially about animals, so when I found out about raw in February a whole new natural world opened up for me and my fur kids. They haven't had flea medicine since March, and they took they very last interceptor last month. Hopefully, this will be the last year of vaccines. I am always open to learning more about animal care, training, and nutrition.


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## LilasMom

OKay so she still has not pooped out dinner or breakfast. I gave her heavy bone in meal last night because of the loose stool, but I think I may have constipated her. She just let out a tiny squirt of liquidy poop, but her tummy is a bit hard and she is making baby noises when I move her or touch her. She also is having tiny toots when she squeezes to poop. Help!

Tummy is soft again, could it be gas? I just gave her some ground beef hard with the colostrum and grapefruit seed extract.


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## Kibblelady

Oh, forgot what I wanted to ask lol In just quick web searching...where do you live? I Valley-Fever a worry? Also, do you have chickens or does the dog have access to an area with chickens? (just trying to possibly find why her level of cocci may be higher than normal.)


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## Kibblelady

LilasMom said:


> OKay so she still has not pooped out dinner or breakfast. I gave her heavy bone in meal last night because of the loose stool, but I think I may have constipated her. She just let out a tiny squirt of liquidy poop, but her tummy is a bit hard and she is making baby noises when I move her or touch her. She also is having tiny toots when she squeezes to poop. Help!


Awww  I know you don't want to... but the Flagyl (Metronidazole) the vet gave you will soothe this  I know slippery elm can work too but how quickly? Has she had intermittent liquid poop in the last few weeks or months? Like occasionally? I hope she feels better really soon. I have itty bitties and I know how we can feel so bad when they don't feel good.


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## Liz

you may have gone a little bone heavy. Maybe a bit of organ meat (liver)? This Spring there was what seemed like an outbreak of coccidia in this area. They attributed it to the geese and other birds - feces falling into a water bucket or a dog eating this could cause the coccidia. A breeder friend had the puppies get it and it ran through all her adults too. They went through three courses of traditional meds and still they tested positive.
She then decided to try a natural treatment and it took a lot to get it under control at that point but they tested clear after two weeks and again two more weeks later. I really wanted to be sure it was gone.  Usually we see lots of giardia but the coccidia was weird.


----------



## Kibblelady

RedneckCowgirl said:


> Kibblelady, here is how I see it:
> 
> Say you are a very strict vegan. It is honestly how you believe you should eat and live, you've seen multiple, wonderful results from people who have switched. You did your research, and you are very healthy, but you get sick anyways (hey, it happens!) and you go to your doctor, where he prescribes a non-vegan medicine. You can treat your illness (now that you know what it is) 100% holistically without compromising your way of life, so you do that instead of taking the Dr. prescribed meds.
> 
> I could be wrong, but that is how I see it :smile:



I understand, that was why I suggested a Holistic veterinarian :becky:


----------



## LilasMom

She is lethargic and not acting her self, I am taking her to the e vet. I am freaking out, I think the chicken constipated her and the addition of breakfast was just too much. She also just threw up her snack so I think there is a block or something


----------



## Kibblelady

Yes, Coccidia can be very hard to get rid of Liz, even with the heavy med, I totally agree. I am curious of course what the natural treatment is for it? I myself have been waaaaay too lucky with this stuff. None of my puppies sent out had parasites at their first vet visit, oops one did sorry (rounds, was odd), and my adults do not seem to have problems with this either. Honestly I get you guys...I do not use heartworm meds, do not vaccinate like mad (I do puppies, yes I do and 1 year booster, after that its up to me...and I do not usually do it.) My dogs have been very healthy...I will brag  Now, I am dealing with cancer (anal sac) and a bout of pnemonia that sprung up out of the blue in my 13yr old...weird really. Vet thinks it was an aspiration issue, I agree based on her eating behavior. She is doing fine, but I will not mess with that problem and she is taking two different antibiotics as well as DMG.

I really want to know how high this little dog's cocci was though...was it something to be concerned about or is the vet being better safe than sorry? Then there also were the rods.... lol it's times like this I wish I were a vet to know what this stuff meant lol


----------



## Kibblelady

LilasMom said:


> She is lethargic and not acting her self, I am taking her to the e vet. I am freaking out, I think the chicken constipated her and the addition of breakfast was just too much. She also just threw up her snack so I think there is a block or something



Oohh no!  Healing thoughts for Lila...and hugs for her Mommy... I hope everything is okay


----------



## Liz

Kibblelady, I too have been very blessed with healthy litters. The dogs we have dealt with have been from people I know through breeding and showing. There are several things for coccidia and giardia but Grapefruit Seed Extract is where i start along with whatever supplements are needing after taking the whole picture into account. Every time it is a little different because circumstances, ages, personalities are different. I like to ask questions before recommending anything and really like to "hold hands" until it is all over. I also like to be sure everything is clear by testing. 

I am in the same boat as you in a way as my oldest boy is 13 and having issues. I have been expecting something he just has spoiled me by never being ill.  I feel for you and your boy as I work to bring my own through his dilema.


----------



## Kibblelady

Liz said:


> Kibblelady, I too have been very blessed with healthy litters. The dogs we have dealt with have been from people I know through breeding and showing. There are several things for coccidia and giardia but Grapefruit Seed Extract is where i start along with whatever supplements are needing after taking the whole picture into account. Every time it is a little different because circumstances, ages, personalities are different. I like to ask questions before recommending anything and really like to "hold hands" until it is all over. I also like to be sure everything is clear by testing.
> 
> I am in the same boat as you in a way as my oldest boy is 13 and having issues. I have been expecting something he just has spoiled me by never being ill.  I feel for you and your boy as I work to bring my own through his dilema.


Yeah, the vet that formulated the food I feed and use is a holistic vet and she had been including Grape seed extract and got her hand smacked over it by the FDA  I wonder if with the new GRAS rules if she will put it back? She really loves that stuff. I should have been clearer in my post too, the 8yr old Tobe has cancer, his 13 yr old dam now has pneumonia...uuuuggghh thank God I can handle this right now financially.... I am not used to having "sick" dogs..one with a gluten intolerance and needed thyroid meds, sure, no biggie, did lose one to GDV  ...but this stuff New to me.... all the dogs I have had and nothing like what Tobe is going through  Do you like DMG Liz? I love the stuff My FeLv cat is alive because of it, that and liver shakes when he needs them...going on 6yrs now 

Opps sorry, keep getting off track of the OP post.


----------



## Liz

Cherri, I understand. Like I said my boy had literally never been sick. So I know how you feel with them being down all of a sudden. 

Grapefruit seed extract is priceless. I hate all these regulations. I have research DMG. Some friends in Canada use it for a seizure dog and another I know uses it for arthritis. I have not had need of it yet but if my boy gets to needing it for arthritis or seizures i would definitely try it. I wish I knew more people who have had success with it because reviews on it are so contradictory. Some adore it and others say it did not help. The few who I do know use it give me more peace in trying it when I need to here.


----------



## BearMurphy

Kibblelady said:


> I really want to know how high this little dog's cocci was though...was it something to be concerned about or is the vet being better safe than sorry? Then there also were the rods.... lol it's times like this I wish I were a vet to know what this stuff meant lol


i think a lot of dogs carry these infections without us realizing it because they don't have constant explosive diarrhea. when I adopted my dog he had giardia. under times of extreme stress like when he first came to me he had loose stool but besides that he never had any extreme symptoms. i decided not to treat him for it the way my vet advised because it didn't bother him, it's hard to get rid of, and she said after two tries she stops treating it. I focused on getting his health better by boosting his immune system. i think liz is giving good advice but you have to commit to the treatment. I don't own a tiny dog though so I am not aware of the extra risks associated with their size


----------



## magicre

:usa::usa::usa::usa:


----------



## Liz

Not yet, but I am waiting. I hope it is just constipation from the extra bone and not a blockage.


----------



## LilasMom

I am in total shock right now. The vet decided to run a blood test because she couldn't feel any constipation or blockage. Her kidney levels are off so they are keeping her over night and giving her fluids and then I have to take her to the normal vet in the morning. I don't even know what to think or do. I told her how I hadn't started the antibiotics yet, basically got chastised for not starting anti biotics right away, so now I am scared this is my fault. Could it be related to the bacteria? I am just worried sick about her, I can't really read the chart well, but it doesn't look good to me 

I am writing out the results of the i-stat:

*What levels should be for dogs:
*
Na 139-150
K 3.4-4.9
Cl 106-127
iCa 1.12-1.4
TCO2 17-25

Glu 60-115
BUN 10-26
Creatinine .05-1.3
Hct 35-50
Hb 12-17

AnGap 8-25


*Lila's Levels:
*

Na 145
K 4.2
Cl 110
iCa 1.18
TCO2 23

Glu 147
BUN 55
Creatinine 1
Hct 63
Hb 21.4

AnGap 18


----------



## LilasMom

Kibblelady said:


> Oh, forgot what I wanted to ask lol In just quick web searching...where do you live? I Valley-Fever a worry? Also, do you have chickens or does the dog have access to an area with chickens? (just trying to possibly find why her level of cocci may be higher than normal.)


Not chickens but we have a balcony where I have feeders for birds.


----------



## magicre

:usa::usa::usa::usa::usa:


----------



## Liz

i am so sorry. Did they have a clue what is going on? You were just in and did testing. Please let us know when they find out what is going on. I am sorry. It is hard to just have tested and thought there was the answer then get thrown for a loop. I am glad there is no blockage though. Please post when they know what is wrong.


----------



## LilasMom

It just worries me because she peed more than usual today and has gone from 3.6 to 3.13 in like 1-2 months. I have even been giving her more food the past couple of weeks but I guess she still lost weight 

I am so nervous about talking to the vet. It can seriously be a nightmare, the vet tech was like wtf when I mentioned giving bovine colostrum after a vaccine and the doctor pretty much said I messed up by not giving her the meds. She said there was no blockage or constipation? But where the hell did the food I fed her go?! She didn't throw it up and the small amount of poop she did have was no where near the amount of dinner and breakfast and treats she had eaten. So I am confused on that end, unless there is poop somewhere hidden in the house. 

I just don't understand how she could have gone downhill so fast.

Thanks everyone for the kind words and support, they do help


----------



## Liz

I am worried with you. The little ones are so hard. has she been drinking ok? Did they recheck the bacteria again? you didn't do anything wrong. It sounds like the coccia diagnosis left something out. You just took the info you were given and planned treatment. They will find something that was missed in previous lab work. You are doing your best and you went to your vet every time she needed care. That is all you can do. Please keep posting. I have a long night ahead with one of mine so I will watch for your thread tonight or tomorrow. :/


----------



## DaneMama

I'm so sorry to hear about your sweet little girl. 

Try not to panic, I know its hard when it comes to our babies. '

Based on all the little tidbits you've said thus far haven't really indicated SERIOUS disease....but that doesn't mean it was about to turn really ugly. Especially with such tiny dogs, when things go south it doesn't take long for them to crash. If anything you should be applauded for following your instincts of getting her in ASAP for fluid therapy. Her kidney values are elevated, but not so much that she's in kidney failure...she's definitely where she needs to be getting IV fluids. 

Don't dwell on blame as it wont help little Lila. Its not like you did anything with the intent to do her any harm, quite the opposite actually...you made decisions with her best interest in mind. For that you should never feel bad. Things like this happen with our pets and its a huge learning opportunity...you'd be surprised how many owners don't follow their instincts until its too late. 

Please keep us posted on her progress and I'm sending you both my positive thoughts and energy!


----------



## Kayota

I didn't read the thread top to bottom but I saw MANY people saying cocci was coccidia and this is very much NOT always the case. I just took a course in microbiology. The term "cocci" only describes the shape (spherical) and not necessarily the species.

That aside, I hope your pup is alright!


----------



## Kibblelady

Kayota said:


> I didn't read the thread top to bottom but I saw MANY people saying cocci was coccidia and this is very much NOT always the case. I just took a course in microbiology. The term "cocci" only describes the shape (spherical) and not necessarily the species.
> 
> That aside, I hope your pup is alright!


Yes, I corrected myself  I made that mistake. I think then we were all exploring various bacteria/protozoans it could be. The little girl also had hhigher rods...can you make some sense out of this for us? Thanks.

I did note the glucose was also raised? Did the vet comment on that Lilasmom? I am always concerned about glucose in such a small dog.


----------



## Kibblelady

LilasMom said:


> It just worries me because she peed more than usual today and has gone from 3.6 to 3.13 in like 1-2 months. I have even been giving her more food the past couple of weeks but I guess she still lost weight
> 
> I am so nervous about talking to the vet. It can seriously be a nightmare, the vet tech was like wtf when I mentioned giving bovine colostrum after a vaccine and the doctor pretty much said I messed up by not giving her the meds. She said there was no blockage or constipation? But where the hell did the food I fed her go?! She didn't throw it up and the small amount of poop she did have was no where near the amount of dinner and breakfast and treats she had eaten. So I am confused on that end, unless there is poop somewhere hidden in the house.
> 
> I just don't understand how she could have gone downhill so fast.
> 
> Thanks everyone for the kind words and support, they do help


Little ones can crash so very quickly, they don't have a whole lot to them to fight with, also if they are "light" in weight for their size as well this can make it even harder. Do not beat yourself up, you were always doing what you thought was best for your girl. The vets are also doing what they know best and they do tend to get a bit irritated when we do not listen to them :/ Keep in mind there are some nutty people out there that do some very dangerous things to their dogs that they "read on the internet'" I am not referring to this case though...just the idiots that research nothing and try to treat their animal with no knowledge of what is going on and what they are doing, that is not you. 

Let us know what your regular vet says today, be prepared for some irritability since you did not listen to him.... it's okay, he is still there to help Lila... just realize his frustration since you went to him for "treatment" ( I know she was not there for the whole loose stool thing) and you seemed to not trust his determination and treatment, this confuses vets and well, upsets them honestly. Just take it and try to direct this into a team effort you and the vet. Do not be intimidated, some of us can be when we are actually in the exam room, the vet is a person and you should be able to discuss your pet's care with him...if not...well I I already said what to do about that.

Hang in there... healing thoughts for Lila still coming her way


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## magicre

:usa::usa::usa::usa::usa:


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## magicre

how is she feeling today?

any word?


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## 9405

In reference to the questions about bacteria in poo....

Bacteria is always present in Poo. It is just a question of HOW MUCH that is the issue. In dogs with a bacteria imbalance/overgrowth....something upset the NORMAL bacteria growth inside their intestines, causing one type or a few types to grow rapidly and overtake the normal flora of the digestive tract.

This is what results: Diarrhea, gas, and frequently lethargy or a painful abdomen-which tends to result in lack of wanting to eat. It's the same as us when we get the "runs". How to fix this is to give medicine usually that will kills the bacteria overgrowth. Then they REINTRODUCE the normal bacteria-such as in Forti-Flora. Also some yogurts (VERY RARE in the states though as most yogurt in the US does not contain the right bacteria to correct it) contain that SAME bacteria that is good for your digestive system. Some vets will recommend certain brands they know to contain the bacteria-so long as its live. Does no good if it's dead bacteria. 

The food itself..is just a digestive food meaning its easy to digest-very very bland and VERY easy on the system. You can achieve the same thing alot of times with rice and chicken boiled and given in small doses to your pet. You can also ask the veterinarian about home cooked meals to save yourself some money.

Long story short...I always-even though I worked at a vet-understood the food that we recommend is meant A) as a convenience for most owners who would not choose to make a easy to digest food for their pets (normal foods are usually heavier in the fats, which can cause a longer recovery time. Just like when you have the runs-you don't eat alot of dairy or fatty foods for a few days...same thing). B) A way to make a few extra bucks. 

Unless I have a pet I'm watching that recovered from some massive surgery or severe illness-I really don't care to use the digestive food for a simple thing like a digestive system a little out of whack. But again-some dogs respond WORSE than others to bacteria overgrowth and diarrhea....just talk to your vet and see how bad it is.

The meds...no question. Give the metronidazole and panacur. I would REALLY recommend giving the Forti-Flora as well-which is sprinkled over the food, but you don't have to use it if it bothers you that much. However...it really helps the recovery of the digestive system much faster than left on its own. Just google "good bacteria" or probiotics...and keep an eye out in the store for those signs on foods lately screaming about probiotics and "digestion health". 

If it was giardia though...you would be given a different treatment and it would be far more serious. I am sure it wasn't-since giardia is not a bacteria but a parasite that animals get frequently from drinking standing water. It resides in the ground and comes out during rains usually. Coccidia too is not bacteria but protozoa. A different issue. As people stated, rods and cocci refers to the shape of the bacteria. Present in LARGE AMOUNTS in stool-also if its HIGHLY ACTIVE (most do not move ALOT under normal digestive systems when healthy) it can cause the problems you stated.


----------



## LilasMom

Okay so this morning I picked her up and took her to her normal vets to continue fluids. Right now they are saying that she got dehydrated from the loose stool and one throw up. The also went ahead and gave her the first round of antibiotics by shot, and this evening I am expected to continue with an oral dose. They gave her some low residue formula which makes my blood boil as they said, "Yeah when she ate it she was ravenous!" as if somehow making it seem like the raw diet was not as satisfying to Lila as their canned corn. In my head I was like, Um no DUH she was ravenous she hadn't eaten in over two meals! I am not even going to go into the other things she said, they were just TOO annoying and are pissing me off just thinking about it. I flat out told her I was not going to feed Lila the food and was sticking to raw and was not going to add pumpkin for soluble fiber to firm her up. I love the one main doctor they have there, but this whole ordeal has made me think the extra $$$ is worth is to see a vet who shares my ideas on nutrition. This vet is all about no declawing, no debarking, no ear cropping, minimal vaccinations, but when it comes to food they are in the Stone Age. 

As to the antibiotics, I am SO torn. Should I just give in this once since she has already had two doses and then get her into a holistic vet next time? This has been really stressful for me, and I know the anti biotics won't kill her or anything, would it be horrible to just give them to her? Would it be horrible to say I did but give the GSE instead? I just don't even know what to think anymore. The last two days or so I have been told multiple times what I am feeding is wrong, that they "don't agree with that diet" and well as the now almost cliched "She will get salmonella!". 

*Sigh*

Every time I look at the ingredients of what they gave her and want me to feed her, I feel sick. I want to get that out of her tummy ASAP!


----------



## Liz

You have to do what you feel is best. Give her probiotics to support her gut while giving anti bitoics and have a sample tested at the end of the course to be sure the bacteria is gone and if not the re evaluate at that time. little dogs are really hard with dehydration. Feed a very mild raw - primarily chicken and keep everything low key. 

My puppies love their homemade broth - we alternate chicken broth and liver broth to get fluids into them and if they are having a lot of diarrhea we add pedialyte. It might help to have that on hand for her since she is so little. I make a batch and freeze it in ice trays so i can just defrost a few as needed. 

No one is here to judge so you do what you feel is best for your pup. One course of anti biotics will not be horrific. Take it a day at a time. If it clears up then great if not decide what other options you want to pursue.  I am glad she is not in kidney failure or any other horrible thing.


----------



## magicre

:usa::usa::usa::usa::usa:


----------



## Kibblelady

Have they given this whole situation a name yet? What exactly are they treating? Im not sure what to tell you about diet here... not knowing exactly what is going on it's hard. I do know she is a little dog and food is very important, more important than say my Emma who hasn't eaten in two days except for a cheeseburger, she can handle it due to her size, Lila cannot  Emma's vet suggested of course some bland boiled chicken or ground beef with rice... tried Honest Kitchen, she turned her nose up at it....


----------



## LilasMom

Thanks for the support. I just don't really know what to think or do at this point. How long should I keep the diet mild?

I will also make some broth, I think that would make her feel better. Do you think a little bit of broth and some chicken would be okay for her tonight? I sort of want to put some chicken in the food processor to make it soupy for her so she can get as much fluids as possible. 

I think this once I feel like I need to give in. But I will be giving her the probiotics and colostrum so I think she will be fine this time. I will definitely be investigating other vets though. 

After she is better, can I continue in some way with the colostrum and/or probiotics to keep her immunity boosted? I want to do everything possible to make sure this doesn't happen again. I think this was a bit traumatic for Lila, she really wanted to go home this morning. Not to mention the bills!! I am going to be paying my mom back for a few months lol.


----------



## Liz

LilasMom said:


> Thanks for the support. I just don't really know what to think or do at this point. How long should I keep the diet mild?
> 
> Being that she can dehydrate so quickly from diarrhea I would keep it bland for the duration of the anti biotics. I would want ot make things as easy on the digestion as possible.
> 
> 
> I will also make some broth, I think that would make her feel better. Do you think a little bit of broth and some chicken would be okay for her tonight? I sort of want to put some chicken in the food processor to make it soupy for her so she can get as much fluids as possible.
> 
> Was she eating her raw or refusing? if she didn't want to eat I would probably process it to be sure she ate. The broths are great when they don't drink enough or have loose stools. I would offer her the broth throughout the day so I could be sure she had fluids.
> 
> I think this once I feel like I need to give in. But I will be giving her the probiotics and colostrum so I think she will be fine this time. I will definitely be investigating other vets though.
> 
> As you said they already started so if you are content then finish the course and retest. Keep the probiotics and colostrum to help her gut and definitely keep it going for about 12 weeks.
> 
> After she is better, can I continue in some way with the colostrum and/or probiotics to keep her immunity boosted? I want to do everything possible to make sure this doesn't happen again. I think this was a bit traumatic for Lila, she really wanted to go home this morning. Not to mention the bills!! I am going to be paying my mom back for a few months lol.


Yes, yes, yes!  I am sorry for the bills. These little guys dehydrate crazy fast. honestly make the two broths so you can rest assured she is getting her fluids and do whatever it takes to keep her eating. Keep things quite at home so she can relax and de-stress. Stress will bring on loose stools too. You can also add the grapefruit seed extract to drinking water as a preventative. Just one drop per bowl. It won't inhibit anything the anti biotic is doing.  Please keep us posted.

I wish I could be closer to hold your hand and help you through this one, but you are strong and your baby will be fine.


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## LilasMom

Okay I will make both broths. I may need to pick up some extra ice cube trays lol. I will continue the probiotics and colostrum for 12 weeks, but how much should I give after she is healthy? I will also continue the one drop of GSE extract. 

She should be coming home this evening. They said they were going to leave in the catheter just in case she has to go back in for any reason. What do you guys think about that? 

It's okay, you have already helped me and supported me so much! I am very appreciative, and so is Lila. I will update the next time I hear anything.


----------



## Kayota

Kibblelady said:


> Yes, I corrected myself  I made that mistake. I think then we were all exploring various bacteria/protozoans it could be. The little girl also had hhigher rods...can you make some sense out of this for us? Thanks.
> 
> I did note the glucose was also raised? Did the vet comment on that Lilasmom? I am always concerned about glucose in such a small dog.


Sorry, I didn't see that part! Just some guy freaking out about her dog having coccidia lol!

Rods are again just a shape and I can't remember what species come in this shape or I'd be more help  Sorry!

I would be concerned that they seem to be being so vague, also are there any holistic vets in your area? I'm nineteen and I understand your pain, my rats' vet is a huge jerk to me because I'm young and of course I don't know what I'm talking about ever


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## magicre

:usa::usa::usa::usa::usa:


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## LilasMom

Kayota said:


> Sorry, I didn't see that part! *Just some guy freaking out about her dog having coccidia lol!*
> 
> Rods are again just a shape and I can't remember what species come in this shape or I'd be more help  Sorry!
> 
> I would be concerned that they seem to be being so vague, also are there any holistic vets in your area? I'm nineteen and I understand your pain, *my rats' vet is a huge jerk to me because I'm young and of course I don't know what I'm talking about ever*


LOL!

Pretty much my exact situation. I guess we can't even catch a break from the small animal vets haha. There is a holistic vet I believe, but he is very expensive, so I am going to look around and see if there are some vets that are accepting of the raw diet.


----------



## LilasMom

magicre said:


> my vet and i go over my dogs' blood work like it is the holy grail. as we are both in medicine, me human, him animals, we are terribly obsessive anal compulsive observers and commenters on all things blood.
> 
> but here's the thing about blood tests...they vary from hour to hour, day to day.
> 
> it's that darned thing called homeostasis, where the brain is constantly raiding the warehouse to supply the organs, the blood stream, etc...and sometimes, that blood work can be drawn at the very moment when a dog is either stressed, hungry, injured, had a loose stool, etc.
> 
> in other words.....in and of itself a slight elevation of blood glucose means to observe and retest in a month or two.....barring any other symptoms...
> 
> stress causes blood sugars to increase because the cavalry has been called to fight the assault or perceived assault....


This makes me feel better. I saw her glucose level and I was like OMG does she have like diabetes?!?! Glad to know it is one of those things that can vary.


----------



## Kayota

I'm going into the vet tech program in a couple weeks so I'm hoping that maybe people will take me more seriously after I've had a semester of classes! (Although frankly I didn't do a whole lot of research into the technical aspect of the raw diet, it just made more sense logically immediately when I started reading about it)

Good luck with your little girl! It's so easy to worry too much about the small ones


----------



## magicre

:usa::usa::usa::usa::usa:


----------



## Kayota

magicre said:


> kayota, i love you.


LOL thanks!

I've found young vets to often be more open minded. My favorite vet is in his late twenties I believe and he's fantastic, whereas the aforementioned rat vet is a huge jerk and several decades older than I am.


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## LilasMom

Okay so I found two vets I think. One is called alternatives for animals and the other is called crystal mountain animal hospital. I know the first is expensive and hard to get into, I might contact the latter when the time comes. Will someone check the site out and tell me what they think? Thanks

Holistic and conventional veterinary pet care including acupuncture

Alternatives 4 Animal Health | Natural Health Care for Your Animals


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## LilasMom

Oh no your inbox is full magicre! lol


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## magicre

:usa::usa::usa::usa::usa:


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## LilasMom

Okay that makes sense. I will talk to several vets then and see how they respond to the raw diet.


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## Liz

I agree with Re. My best vet is an old country vet. He is kind and keeps up on changes and improvements. He is also non judgemental about what he calls my "hippie" ways. He never complains about my raw feeding and has even researched it himself so he would know more about it. He also checks into my alternative methods to double check me. I really appreciate him.


----------



## magicre

:usa::usa::usa::usa::usa:


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## Kayota

That's true, my first favorite vet was an old country type... But he passed on and was replaced by Dr. Murdach, the aforementioned young vet, in the same practice


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## LilasMom

Wait how much of the primal defense ultra do I give her?

So Lila is back home and feeling better. Her blood levels are pretty much back to normal, but he wants to see her in the morning to make sure. I am making her chicken broth and liver broth right now. Since she hasn't been home I still need to give her the colostrum, probiotics, and pedialyte with a bit of slippery elm. Will these be okay to give together?


----------



## Liz

I give everything together to even tiny puppies. You can actually just give her 1/2 capsule of each since she is so tiny. Everything works fine together.


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## LilasMom

Okay perfect I will give it all to her in about 30 minutes or so. She just had a teeny weeny piece of raw chicken and a small amount of chicken broth so I am waiting to see how she handles it. I think she will be fine though because she is rolling around on the floor so happy to be home.


----------



## Kibblelady

Did I miss a post?  Did they say exactly what was wrong with Lila?

I am glad she is feeling better


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## Liz

My understanding and I might be wrong is that they are treating for coccidia and the big issues was she had dehydrated. Last I heard she is doing good, and she had been started of anti biotics so the round will be finished with probiotic supplementation and homemade broth to make sure the little one stays hydrated. That's the story - I think.


----------



## Kibblelady

Kayota said:


> Sorry, I didn't see that part! Just some guy freaking out about her dog having coccidia lol!
> 
> Rods are again just a shape and I can't remember what species come in this shape or I'd be more help  Sorry!


You mean me? lol I'm not a dude if you did haha I am a "lady." If you meant her vet, I am not fond of him at this point from this far away. I asked about the rods because I thought maybe you knew why they may be elevated, knew it was a shape. Do you know what bacteria could be a "rod" and why they may be elevated? I admit I do not know the clinical issues with a stool sample lol I know about parasite eggs and what they look like yadda yadda, I can even screen a bitch in estrus to look for cornified cells lol But not bacteria  have never done that.


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## Liz

No, it wasn't you someone else jumped in and started attacking her. It was a ways back.  I am not thrilled with him either.


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## Kibblelady

Liz said:


> No, it wasn't you someone else jumped in and started attacking her. It was a ways back.  I am not thrilled with him either.



Really? That's not nice  Grrrr


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## magicre

:usa::usa::usa::usa::usa:


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## LilasMom

Lila is doing great now. Her last day of meds is tomorrow, but I will continue will the supplements for many weeks. Her poop is back too normal now and she is able to handle larger meals. I have been so worried about her fluid intake that I made her "soup" for every meal, made of broth, tiny pieces of cut up or ground raw chicken and sometimes pedialyte and her supplements. The past two nights she has eaten a chicken toe and this morning she had a bit of ground turkey neck in her soup with tiny pieces of chicken. She has handled it all very well.


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## Kibblelady

Awesome!! Go Lila! :clap2:


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## Liz

That is great to hear. I am so glad.


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## magicre

:usa::usa::usa::usa::usa:


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## LilasMom

There was no definitive diagnosis. Just extra bacteria in her poop. 

They wanted her back in after a few weeks, should I take her and then find a new vet after this whole ordeal is over, or should I just go ahead and find a new vet? I don't want them to still see extra bacteria in her poop and keep giving antibiotics even though that extra bacteria may be normal for her, although if they did prescribe antibiotics I will most likely refuse and just do it my way.

I honestly don't know all that much about the technical aspects of raw feeding, but it makes sense that they would shed more bacteria in their poop. That is why I am more worried about the affects of the meds than the bacteria itself.


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## angelbears

I'm so glad that Lila is feeling better. If your going to change vets I would do it now. Someone very wise once told me that Drs. are not gods, they are your employee. In the past 10 years I have had 3 different vets almost kill or seriously harm three different dogs. Don't ever leave an exam room without all your questions being fully answered, in a way that you can understand. If they won't or can't do that then change vets. I would never drop off my dog at the vets. I would be there for the exam and any procedures. I never let them take my dog to the back for things that can be done in my presence. Of course surgery and hospitalization is the exception.

These are your rights. You pay good money, make sure you are getting good care.


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## 9405

LilasMom said:


> There was no definitive diagnosis. Just extra bacteria in her poop.
> 
> They wanted her back in after a few weeks, should I take her and then find a new vet after this whole ordeal is over, or should I just go ahead and find a new vet? I don't want them to still see extra bacteria in her poop and keep giving antibiotics even though that extra bacteria may be normal for her, although if they did prescribe antibiotics I will most likely refuse and just do it my way.
> 
> I honestly don't know all that much about the technical aspects of raw feeding, but it makes sense that they would shed more bacteria in their poop. That is why I am more worried about the affects of the meds than the bacteria itself.



All they will do on the checkup appointment is run another fecal test and look at the bacteria. Again bacteria ALWAYS exist in poop. Its the amounts and level of activity,as well as if there is more of one type than another (Spirochetes, rods, cocci....NORMAL types of bacteria referring to the SHAPE of the bacteria. They are always present in poo. No bacteria at all in poo is bad. Too much bacteria in poo is bad and results in what you saw.)

If it was me-and my dog was eating, drinking, normal stool, no problems....then I would not need to bring it in to the recheck appointment. If my dog still had loose stools or was still off on her feeding-I would take her in and have the recheck done on her stool sample-she may need more medication.

If you go-be sure to tell them when you arrive that you have many questions to ask your vet and to please provide you with enough time to address them. They usually only give 15 minutes for a recheck appointment barring any issues. Write down your questions such as:
Why is there Bacteria in my dogs stool
Is it normal to have some bacteria in her stool
What are the different kinds of bacteria-and why do they call them cocci/rods/spirochetes
How can I prevent an overgrowth of bacteria again in her stool
etc etc etc.


If you are satisfied your animal is healthy again-you really don't need to do the check up appointment so long as you feel comfortable. It is just a way to ensure you have no further questions or your dog has no further issues. This is coming from a person who worked at vet clinics for the past 15 years.

*Also an overgrown of bacteria IS a diagnosis....and it sounds like that is exactly what happened. Overgrowth of bacteria/an out of whack digestive system can occur due to many things: Stress, change in diets (while the system gets used to a particular diet it can do just this for a few days and is why any diet change they say to perform slowly over a few days while mixed with the prior food), drinking stagnant water or just water after a rain, many things can cause a system to go out of whack. For my own dogs-one of them gets the runs and an overgrowth of bacteria after severe thunderstorms with alot of lightning and diarrhea. I treat her usually with the "air and water diet" (such as how we would treat ourselves if we had diarrhea...no food to continue coursing through us, drink LOTS of fluids, and so on) which also includes pedialyte in bad cases, and chicken broth. After a day or two, I will then start her back on food slowly with boiled rice and chicken-something really bland. I note her stool on that first stool post starting food again-usually it fixes itself and gets solid again after a few days. In bad bad cases I have had to give her metronidazole, and then reintroduce bacteria in her system via forti-flora. 

Every dog though responds differently to upset digestive systems, medications, etc etc. Small dogs like yours are more at risk (just like babies and kids are more at risk of dehydration if they get the runs or flu compared to adults who are larger) than large dogs generally. They just can't take as much punishment-body wise.


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## magicre

:usa::usa::usa::usa::usa:


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## magicre

:usa::usa::usa::usa::usa:


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## LilasMom

semunky said:


> *Also an overgrown of bacteria IS a diagnosis....and it sounds like that is exactly what happened. Overgrowth of bacteria/an out of whack digestive system can occur due to many things: Stress, change in diets (while the system gets used to a particular diet it can do just this for a few days and is why any diet change they say to perform slowly over a few days while mixed with the prior food), drinking stagnant water or just water after a rain, many things can cause a system to go out of whack. For my own dogs-one of them gets the runs and an overgrowth of bacteria after severe thunderstorms with alot of lightning and diarrhea. I treat her usually with the "air and water diet" (such as how we would treat ourselves if we had diarrhea...no food to continue coursing through us, drink LOTS of fluids, and so on) which also includes pedialyte in bad cases, and chicken broth. After a day or two, I will then start her back on food slowly with boiled rice and chicken-something really bland. I note her stool on that first stool post starting food again-usually it fixes itself and gets solid again after a few days. In bad bad cases I have had to give her metronidazole, and then reintroduce bacteria in her system via forti-flora.
> .


Lila is on a raw diet so she doesn't eat cooked meals or grains. I started her on solid food pretty soon after getting her home, like chicken, a bit of ground turkey neck, and today she had some chicken hearts. I can tell she is eager to get back to richer foods, she scarfed down the hearts lol. 

I also did not use the forti-flora like the vet suggested because it includes animal digest, which I would not give to my dogs. I bought a probiotic called Primal Defense, which has been great for her. It is human grade so I can use it if I need to too, lol 



magicre said:


> semunky, no disrespect...honest...
> 
> my vet, whom i adore for many reasons....has cited me a study from the university of guelph...by a man named weiss, i believe...who conducted a small study on 156 dogs, i believe...forgive me, i'm taking this from memory....which rarely serves me well.
> 
> the outcome for this study was that raw fed dogs had more bacteria in their stool....than other dogs not raw fed.
> 
> my vet then said this was the reason the AVMA was adopting the policy of not recommending raw feeding to their clients...and, no i'm not trying to start a debate...
> 
> what i am saying, is...if this study is true and i see no reason for it not to be....then, it would become normal for a raw fed dog to have more bacteria in stool....therefore,* it then cannot be part of a diagnosis unto itself...if that makes sense..*..


This is what I think. I think they overreacted to something that was normal to Lila because she is raw fed. She eats a lot of different raw protein sources and explores outside a lot so she is being exposed to all sorts of bacteria everyday but because she is healthy her immune system could handle it until she got stressed from the vet trip. Car rides make her extremely anxious and ending up at the vet was just too much for her. When I had to crate train her she had the same kind of loose poop. I honestly think the diarrhea had nothing to do with the bacteria. 

But I know better now and will be a stronger advocate for Lila in the future.


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## magicre

:usa::usa::usa::usa::usa:


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## 9405

If a dog...is not used to having the higher bacteria level....the results are what you see.

Once a dog is used to ANY diet and ANY changes....their bacteria levels or activity of the bacteria levels then stabilize-whether that means its higher than dogs fed dry kibble doesn't matter so much as how the bacteria is represented in the stool. 

Even Raw-which I also love to read about and don't disagree with in any form-and I do think it is where food will eventually go more mainstream for dogs (kibble will always be there due to price unless raw food diets come down drastically in cost). I understand that Raw diets are suspected to usually equal more bacteria in a system. Vets do as well-if they keep up on studies-though they look for studies done on many dogs and the same results repeatable by other studies as well. This does NOT mean a dog can't go have a system get out of "whack". Especially during the transition time, or if a batch of food is not as good/fresh-which can happen in ANY diet and happens to us HUMANS all the time.

Honestly the AVMA is actually shifting towards APPROVAL of the raw diet. This comes from numerous friends I do have in the veterinary community-many on teaching boards at veterinary colleges around the US. Most vets-while alot don't know enough to ever give advice on how to start a raw diet, actually think there are GOOD things from it.

I think perhaps many for more organic, holistic, or natural type lifestyles for their dogs should rethink whether a community is always against them. There are SOME factors such as NO medicine, vaccines, etc that will be sticking points for many-but some things like Raw diets...are not as contrary to most peoples thought processes in the veterinary community.

ANY dog including one on a RAW diet can have an upset balance of bacteria in their stomach. What I look for is not exactly QUANTITY-but also activity level of the bacteria compared to the amount-and the different number (average) of rods vs cocci with a few spirochetes tossed in for good effect.

There isn't really a normal amount, per se, of bacteria one would expect to see-minus NO bacteria-one never wants to see that-or highly active bacteria with a slide FULL of movement that under a microscope almost makes the slide looks like it is vibrating. On dogs with upset stomachs, lack of desire to eat, painful abdomens, and diarrhea....this is the usual diagnosis if one sees highly active bacteria, or a slide full of one over another shape of bacteria, etc etc.

Again-its not good to have no bacteria. A diagnosis of "overgrowth of bacteria" IS a diagnosis-usually conditional on the symptoms, no changes to a dogs environment/or changes in a dogs environment (Stress, food, physical environment, etc) that fit the bill of knowing to cause a system to go out of "whack". The diagnosis is usually not confirmed until a dog either improves under the treatment plan (air/water, or medicine-ie metronidazole, panacur, probiotics, etc etc). 

I'm not saying the diagnosis could even have not been wrong. I'm saying a diagnosis of "overgrowth of bacteria" IS a diagnosis and is one that is NOT bad medicine. Stress and all of that can of course as you stated affect a dog enough to throw their system out of whack and give them diarrhea. The dehydration and such resulting from the diarrhea is dangerous as you know.




For Lilasmom-
I'm glad that Lily is good and healthy again, and I hope you do have good luck finding a vet you are happy with.


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## magicre

:usa::usa::usa::usa::usa:


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## LilasMom

semunky said:


> Once a dog is used to ANY diet and ANY changes....their bacteria levels or activity of the bacteria levels then stabilize-whether that means its higher than dogs fed dry kibble doesn't matter so much as how the bacteria is represented in the stool.
> 
> Even Raw-which I also love to read about and don't disagree with in any form-and I do think it is where food will eventually go more mainstream for dogs (*kibble will always be there due to price unless raw food diets come down drastically in cost).* I understand that Raw diets are suspected to usually equal more bacteria in a system. Vets do as well-if they keep up on studies-though they look for studies done on many dogs and the same results repeatable by other studies as well. This does NOT mean a dog can't go have a system get out of "whack". Especially during the transition time, or if a batch of food is not as good/fresh-which can happen in ANY diet and happens to us HUMANS all the time.
> 
> For Lilasmom-
> I'm glad that Lily is good and healthy again, and I hope you do have good luck finding a vet you are happy with.



A very high quality kibble can be a lot more expensive to feed than raw. On average, I probably spend around 20 dollars a month on meat. You can join a raw feeding coop, buy meat at costco, heb, whole foods, etc, ask friends and family if they have extra meat or bones, etc. If you do your research it can come out way cheaper. 
* I wanted to add that most of the money I spent was just when starting, if you buy in bulk you get it cheap. I haven't bought new meat in a while so this month I am getting 20 pounds of meaty emu leg bones for $20. It is going to last me a long time since both my dogs are under ten pounds.


Thanks, Lila is doing great now, but I am still on the search lol.


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