# Diarrhea



## OldGnarlHead (Feb 17, 2016)

So Cricket's been having diarrhea for about the past week now. It started when she had a bony poop so we had a boneless day and then after that it was just liquid poop. It started getting better the past two days (much more formed) but then Arne accidentally gave her a bit of liver that was in one of her meals, and we're back to liquid. She's been acting fine otherwise and we've been making sure she's hydrated but we're going to make an appointment Monday for the vet if it doesn't clear up.. We haven't been lowering the amount of food she gets because she would play so hard with Pluto but now that he's gone we're going to lessen the food she gets.


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## naturalfeddogs (Jan 6, 2011)

It sounds like it is a combination of the boneless and liver. I always give something with bone when I give organs. If things were clearing up before the liver deal, then I would give some bone in only for a few days.


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## OldGnarlHead (Feb 17, 2016)

She's been getting some pretty bone heavy days for the past week. She's been getting chicken feet as a snack, too. Today we're breaking out the chicken backs though, seeing if that helps. Hoping it gets better...


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## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

Once it gets out of whack like that, you have to pretty much start over. Push the re-set button. 

You should quit giving organs. Go back to your basic proteins - but remember, don't overfeed bone. Too much bone causes problems, also. 

Reduce her food. You might be overfeeding her. I know my overconfidence as a raw feeder is what got me into trouble with a foster dog I had once. I screwed him up pretty good by moving too fast with organs and proteins. not saying that's what happened with you because only you know that, but it might be something to consider. 

Since she's been having diarrhea for a week, you just need to step back to step one, basically.


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## OtherGuy (Nov 30, 2016)

Worst thing you can do IMO is to break out the chicken backs. Too much bone, as Xelli says in the post above, causes as many problems as too little bone or too much liver.

The better tack is to keep all meals close to PMR ratios. And not to swing between two aproaches that challenge a dog's digestive tract at the extremes (and expecially with dogs prone to GI upset).

Bill


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## OldGnarlHead (Feb 17, 2016)

Well, she was on PMR ratios and she had a super bony poop so we gave her a day of boneless. Apparently her poop already looked a bit more formed today so we'll see how it is tomorrow. She hasn't even started on organs yet cause of the diarrhea. We'll see how it is in the next day or so and if it doesn't fix it we'll go back to just chicken


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## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

OldGnarlHead said:


> Well, she was on PMR ratios and she had a super bony poop so we gave her a day of boneless. Apparently her poop already looked a bit more formed today so we'll see how it is tomorrow. She hasn't even started on organs yet cause of the diarrhea. We'll see how it is in the next day or so and if it doesn't fix it we'll go back to just chicken


Don't get discouraged. I will keep my fingers crossed it continues to improve.


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## OldGnarlHead (Feb 17, 2016)

Pretty discouraged, honestly. She had more liquid poop... We're thinking we might fast her tomorrow except some broth and water, then prep some meals of just chicken and turkey for a few days.


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## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

I had a dog with a sensitive stomach. 

I did fast her, to give her a reset. I gave her bentonite clay, coconut water for electrolytes, and chicken broth. She was a small dog, so on the first day I would start putting tiny pieces of cooked chicken in with the broth. The second day I would start adding raw and some bone meal, building up until she was eating regular raw again after about four days. 

Just another thought - you might take a fecal down to the vet and test for parasites. It could be giardia or something similar, and not food-related at all. Sporadic liquid diarrhea with periods of "getting better" is what two of my dogs had when they had giardia but I think several parasites do that.


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## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

But fasting may not be a bad idea. As a wise woman once explained to me, it doesn't hurt a stomach to rest and settle down. I guess kind of like when we have an upset stomach and quit eating for awhile to let it get better.


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## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

You will fix this. You have the right attitude. You have the freezer, for Pete's sake! I have faith in you and your dog.


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## OldGnarlHead (Feb 17, 2016)

Yeah, I know. I just wonder if it would be better already if we already took her to the vet. I feel pretty bad about letting it go this long. I've been giving her diatomaceous earth and broth in between meals to keep her hydrated and trace minerals and things. ugh she worries me.. between this, and being so sleepy lately, and her cracked tooth, and having been on raw for two months and not on organs yet, I'm just pulling my hair out.. and dreads really hurt to pull out...


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## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

You don't need to take her to the vet, just her poop. And it definitely sounds like at least a 24 hour fast might do her good, and then you could start over. 

The immediate goal would be to stop the diarrhea. I don't want you to lose your hair 

There's no point in diatomaceous earth for what is ailing her. It might even be detrimental. Replace it with slippery elm. Slippery elm soothes and coats the stomach. Do that, coconut water (or a small amount of pedialyte if you can't get coconut water), and chicken broth. Just stop everything else, no trace minerals, nothing. You can use slippery elm for about three days; since it reduces absorption of nutrients it's not something you can do long term but it is great at calming everything down. 

And when you do start over, maybe list your food. You know I'm not a great fan of figuring out exactly what's 10% of stuff but it might be time to make sure the bone is the correct amount.


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## naturalfeddogs (Jan 6, 2011)

Like xellil said, I wouldn't take her to the vet at this point, just poop. Otherwise the vet is likely going to send you home with all kinds of meds that will mess things up more. If it's parasite related, that's all they need anyway.


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## OldGnarlHead (Feb 17, 2016)

We don't have slippery elm right now, the soonest I could get it is Monday. We don't have just chicken broth, I have turkey and beef + chicken at the moment. But yeah, she got dinner last night, and then she wont get breakfast, maybe some water and broth or coconut water until dinner, which will be chicken and small. 
Also, all her meals are at PMR ratios (besides organ cause she wasn't on that yet, the organ percentage was filled with meat). Her poops were always decently bony so when we upped her meal weight we just added more meat to see if that would help, so that might be a culprit. Also she just started beef and maybe I went too fast with the fattier cuts? Just some other ideas of what it could be.. 
Also, I was thinking that the DE could help with possible parasites (besides the really small ones) if there were any, but I'll stop giving her that for now


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## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

Definitely could be the beef. It might be too rich. Some dogs can eat anything from the first day, and some dogs need to go slower than normal. 

Has she pooped today? 

I'm not sold on DE internally for parasites. DE kills insects with exoskeletons by slicing the outer shell, and it has to be dry to work. It doesn't kill spiders or worms. Someone would have to really convince me it's going to help internal parasites although I do use it extensively outside and under their bedding. 

But, first you have to find out if you have a parasite, hence the fecal. 

Do you have chicken? You can boil it and pour off the broth.


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## OldGnarlHead (Feb 17, 2016)

She pooped a little this morning. Mostly liquid with some solid bits. Nothing since then. Just pee. She had beef + chicken broth for breakfast with some coconut water. Might give her a bit more just to keep her hydrated. Im thinking it might be the beef. Every time we intro a new protein her skin flares up a little (and whenever her skin flares up she gets diarrhea, but this is the worst so far), and when we started beef it really flared up, with actual little bumps like it used to before raw. I hope she doesn't have a beef sensitivity. We'll try again but definitely go slower than we did this time. Puppy steps.

Also no vet is open until Tuesday except the emergency services but I'm hoping its cleared up by then.


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## OldGnarlHead (Feb 17, 2016)

I just realized that I totally forgot that there was a like and thank you button and I hope no one has cared that I haven't been liking or thanking any of you. I hope you all know that I appreciate every word you type in the support of transitioning another dog and owner!

Just an update, no more poop as of yet today so a good sign! Small dinner of just a medium-sized chicken drumstick. We did a small meat day today (we are currently transitioning to Tupperware for her meals and LOVE it) and her meals are the usual progression of proteins up to pork, just a little faster. No organs, no beef. I think I'm going to take my time introducing beef next time around. Much more gradual. 

I'm off to organize the freezer. I am determined to make room to buy from RFM within the next few weeks. Since Cricket has to have a tooth out we're going to buy some ground bone (turkey necks, chicken backs, duck necks) so that she can easily eat her meals without causing too much pain. I really want her to be fully transitioned, at least handling liver well before we get it done.. im so worried about it.


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## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

Just FYI, a chicken leg all by itself has too much bone in it. It is about 1/3 bone. You need to find some hearts or even gizzards and add that to her chicken leg. 

And if you buy the ground, unless they tell you it has the right PMR proportions, it's going to have too much bone in it also.


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## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

Oh, and I doubt we even notice about the like and thank stuff  I sure don't.


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## OldGnarlHead (Feb 17, 2016)

The rest of her meals are all PMR ratio minus the organ, working from 17 ounces back up to 20. Can't wait to put weight on her again... And for the ground bone, we were going to feed it like it was a normal bone-in, 10% of her food's weight. That's what they suggest, anyway.


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## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

OldGnarlHead said:


> The rest of her meals are all PMR ratio minus the organ, working from 17 ounces back up to 20. Can't wait to put weight on her again... And for the ground bone, we were going to feed it like it was a normal bone-in, 10% of her food's weight. That's what they suggest, anyway.


I agree, but all ground w/bone doesn't come with 10% bone, so you need to make sure it does or add some boneless. It should tell you when you buy it what the percentage of bone is, but even when they say it's 10% I normally end up feeding half ground w/bone and half boneless because it's just too much bone for my dogs. 

That's the problem with ground up stuff; they can say whatever they want about the contents or the amount of the contents and you have no way to check it for yourself. 

Personally, I would have let her stomach rest a little longer and given her very small amounts of cooked chicken along with the broth, to work up to small amounts of raw, adding a little bit of bone meal in although it's probably not necessary, instead of a chicken leg which has a huge amount of bone in it and forces her digestion to ramp up to full max. But I hope she does fine the way you are doing it. I really want this to work for her.


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## OldGnarlHead (Feb 17, 2016)

I guess I get what you are saying. Here's some of what we were looking at getting.

But yeah, no poop as of today so hopefully we're getting ahead of it. I'm _really_ am not comfortable withholding actual amounts of food for longer than 24 hours, especially with her having lost so much weight and still getting skinnier. At her checkup she weighed 39 pounds as opposed to the 45 she was when we got her. Her shoulder blades and ribs are getting loooooads more obvious and I'm just not comfortable with it. I just gotta get her over this then start getting weight on her again.


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## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

Yes, so you'll add a bunch of boneless to the ground turkey neck. I'm sure you know that but I can't help but say it anyway.

I know she needs to gain some weight - I would just go bone light for a couple of days, even cooked chicken, or some gizzards with crumbled up eggshell. Or whole eggs so she can eat the shell. I'm afraid she's getting too much bone and I'm afraid her system is not being allowed to rest and recuperate. If she keeps having problems she's never going to gain weight.

Or, maybe eggs aren't a great idea since she's got diarrhea problems. But the shells could replace real bone for a day or two if you don't have bone meal.


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## OldGnarlHead (Feb 17, 2016)

Yeah, it was just going to be stand in for her bone, not an entire meal! I think we were saying the same things differently lol. 

And okay, I worry the diarrhea would get worse with less bone, but Ill go light on it. Last time she ate eggs she got really bad diarrhea too, so probably not yet. She pooped, though. Not exactly solid but I wouldn't say liquidy, either. A little mucousy, but her poop is always mucousy when she is getting over diarrhea, even on meds. I think it might have been introducing the beef too fast. She took to pork so easily that we figured we could introduce beef at the same pace as we did the pork. I should have known better knowing that beef is so much richer..

Gave her a small dinner of a small boneless chicken thigh, some broth, and a little coconut water.


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## naturalfeddogs (Jan 6, 2011)

Nope, beef is considerably richer than pork. When you are ready for beef again, just start small and go slow. Add more as she tolerates it, and you will start seeing weight gain back before too long.


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## OldGnarlHead (Feb 17, 2016)

I know, it just really bothers me.. We're planning on keeping her at 3% until she doesn't need it. We think she'd be on 3% anyway since she is an crazy active puppy.


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## OtherGuy (Nov 30, 2016)

I think Xellil is making excellent points regarding bone.

Think of it this way. If a bone-in chicken piece has 33% or 1/3rd bone then you'd need two portions of the equal size (each) to the bone-in chicken piece to balance the bone. Plus one piece of organ about 1/3rd the size chicken piece.

With such a sensitive dog staying on target with meals is the best foot forward IMO.

Bill


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## OldGnarlHead (Feb 17, 2016)

Alright. The rest of her meals after this one that we prepped are all PMR ratio regarding the bone. We usually really strive to hit PMR ratios over the course of a week unless something goes haywire with her. Her poops are usually pretty bony on PMR ratio minus the organ so hopefully that sorts out when she is on organ. Her poop was much, much better today! Actually formed and just a little mucous. So yay, going back to normal, I do believe.


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## Herzo (Feb 5, 2011)

Sorry you are having so much trouble getting started. You have gotten good advice and I have nothing to add as I don't have much experience with problems changing to raw anyway. I have been lucky that way.


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## OldGnarlHead (Feb 17, 2016)

We've been all good until now, lol. I'm now convinced that it was just us introducing beef way too fast. We're thinking we're going to keep her on as much pork as we can while still maintaining variety so she can start getting weight on while we slowly introduce beef. SLOWLY. Like as slow as I can take it. It just worries me that she's not on organs yet because I don't want her to not have those essential nutrients. But, we'll get there. All in good time, I guess.


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## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

OldGnarlHead said:


> We've been all good until now, lol. I'm now convinced that it was just us introducing beef way too fast. We're thinking we're going to keep her on as much pork as we can while still maintaining variety so she can start getting weight on while we slowly introduce beef. SLOWLY. Like as slow as I can take it. It just worries me that she's not on organs yet because I don't want her to not have those essential nutrients. But, we'll get there. All in good time, I guess.


When you start organs, just feed her a tiny tiny piece. A piece the size of your smallest toenail. So small you wonder how it can do her any good at all. but it will start to get her used to it. It seems maybe that one piece of liver had a really extreme reaction in her, digestion-wise so once you get her back on track you don't want to risk it happening again.


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

where are you now with all of this?

i gave both of my dogs cannon butt.....and it took weeks to clear it up....and start over.....

when this happens, i no longer use slippery elm. i use bentonite clay and fulvic acid in broth to replenish minerals, etc.

here's the thing. 

i've watched you from the beginning. i think you are doing great.

there isn't one amongst us who hasn't made a step in a direction that caused the runs. 

the beauty of dogs is this can be fixed. 

having said that, take a deep breath....for real. because this is for real and for life. 

as time goes by, you'll start taking this stuff in stride.......honest......

for now, get bentonite clay and start with a teaspoon in the a.m.

do that for a week. 

go back to chicken and start over. 

also, make sure you are not overfeeding........which is one of the single greatest causes of the runs.


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

the other thing i would do is take a faecal into the vet. not the dog, but a faecal. 
just to rule out things like giardia which can also be treated without a vet.


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## OldGnarlHead (Feb 17, 2016)

She hasn't pooped since this morning and this morning's poop was much better. We're back on chicken for the while. I just cannot, cannot wait to get weight back on her.


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

worrying about the weight will only give you an ulcer.

things in the raw, more natural world, move more slowly...what you think is too skinny is not, regardless of what you are seeing.

what you are not seeing is transformation and adaptation and change to what your dog will become. the ugly duckling is going to become a swan. 

time.


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## OldGnarlHead (Feb 17, 2016)

SOoooooo, we're back to normal poops! I'm 100% certain that it was me transitioning to beef too fast and then the subsequent liver that snuck in. Now to continue her mini transition back to pork and then a slow introduction to beef and then organs! I am determined to get her fully transitioned as fast as she can and hopefully get some weight on her so we can get her tooth out and get we back to normal puppydom!


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## OtherGuy (Nov 30, 2016)

I'm deeply skeptical that beef or a scant amount of liver is responsible for the problems. 

I keep reading that "her poops are usually pretty bony," and that's almost certainly the root of the problem. 10% bone meals should not produce very boney stools. I'd check your math, and stick to PRM ratio meals. 

Alternating between boney-heavy meals and boneless meals, or serving all bone heavy meals, is going to upset the dog's GI tract. A lot of bone in stools is evidence of too much bone. 

Bill


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## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

OtherGuy said:


> I'm deeply skeptical that beef or a scant amount of liver is responsible for the problems.
> 
> I keep reading that "her poops are usually pretty bony," and that's almost certainly the root of the problem. 10% bone meals should not produce very boney stools. I'd check your math, and stick to PRM ratio meals.
> 
> ...


I agree with some of this except I do believe liver and rich meats can throw a dog off, and I don't believe alternating bony and boneless is bad for a dog, as I've been doing it for years. 

But I do believe in watching poops. A drumstick is going to make very bony poops; i.e. you know that's too much bone. You don't want to have extremely bony or sandy poops. So if you feed a drumstick - which I consider bone-heavy for your size dog - add boneless meat to it. 

Just as an example, I have a 65 pound dog. He eats 14 ounces per day. This is what he eats, if he were eating chicken:

Day 1: A chicken quarter of maybe 10-12 oz plus 4-6 ounces of boneless to add up to 14 ounces. 

But, he gets everything but one ounce at night. So it's a one-meal day with a little snack for the other meal.

Day 2: All boneless except maybe a chicken foot or a herring. 

Now, if I were figuring 10% - which I don't - I would know that the chicken quarter is is about 1/3 bone. If I were going strictly by PMR I wouldn't be able to feed that chicken quarter because my dog doesn't eat 2 pounds of food a day.

I also don't know if my two days of feeding equals 10% and I don't care. But I just did what I swore I would never do and I went and figured it out. And it comes out to 9.something percent of bone over a two day period. 

That's the way all my dogs eat, all my prior dogs have eaten, all my future dogs will eat. It gives them the ability to eat bigger bones. Sometimes my 65 pound dog eats a pork shoulder roast and he goes two days after pretty much boneless. 

But to the way you are feeding - I feel like you're feeding more than one meal a day, and you're feeding about equal amounts each time although I'm not 100% positive. 

The way I have found my dogs like it best is to feed one meal with most of their food. And feed the other meal with just a small bit of their daily food. You can feed more bone that way. Like the chicken leg. If her other meal of the day is boneless, add most of that to the chicken leg and give her a small amount the other meal. One ounce, even. 

she gets the same amount of bone in a day, but she gets a lot of boneless with it.


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## OldGnarlHead (Feb 17, 2016)

Cricket gets two meals a day, most of it in the morning (like 3/4) and then a little at night to hold her over until morning, with all her bone in the morning. Our math is as 100% as we can get, finding the average amount of bone online (usually sourcing from multiple sites, if possible) then we have an excel sheet that we have it all plugged into so we can just type the name of the cut and the weight of it and it will tell us how much bone is in it in ounces and how much over or under her daily amount it is. 
I believe that all dogs are different and 10% wont fit every dog and shouldn't be a hard and fast all-the-time-no-matter-what rule. Some days are a little bone heavy and then the next day is a little bone light to compensate for the previous day, but we don't have days where she doesn't have bone unless she had a really bony poop the day previous.
I can't even count the amount of times I've read that switching to a new protein or organ resulted in cannon butt, but it's a lot. That's the only thing I think it could be now, seeing how quickly it cleared up after we stopped feeding the beef. 
Also, we are as close to PMR ratios as we can be without the organ percentage. Id really like it if I had to stop saying that, but I believe the PMR ratio is a thing for a reason and we stay as close as possible to it over a week's span.


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## OtherGuy (Nov 30, 2016)

@ Xellil,

I doubt any of us would argue that a significant meal of liver (especially for a dog that wasn't used to it) couldn't cause loose stools or worse. But a scant amount? I'm dubious. Like you I'd advocate for people to start with very small portions and work up.

I don't agree with the common advice to feed organs late (or last). This practice, to my mind, delays providing essential nutrients (without good cause), and often leads to dogs developing an aversion to liver and other organs. Because organs are essential it is best IMO to feed organs early, starting with small amounts.

I often see the word "rich" used to describe some meat items, and I can't figure out what the term means to the people using it. 

I feed once a day. I think it is far preferable to feed a dog after its day is done so that it doesn't run/work/play on a full stomach. 

Since our raw fed dogs are burning fat as their primary fuel, there is a nealy unlimited supply of glycogen available to suppy energy to muscles (unlike carb-fed dogs). This means dogs have full stamina on one meal per day and the risks of running "full" that come with multiple or morning meals are averted.

The meal sizes I feed vary based on multiple factors. 

I think the way you feed (in the example) with a heavier bone day followed by a lighter bone (but not boneless) day that averages out about 10% is totally reasonable, and would work for most dogs. 

However, if a dog proved very prone to diarrhea I would narrow the range. Instead of feeding a chicken quarter one day, for example, I'd split the quarter into thigh and drumstick and serve on subsequent days (adding meat and organs to get near 80/10/10). Many dogs don't require such tender treatment. But the dog in question has seemed sensitive from the beginning. 

Bill


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## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

You have big dogs. I have a mixture of big dogs and small dogs. I don't like my small dogs to go 24 hours without food.

Not only that, but I have a dog that gets hunger pukes in the morning and another one that gets hunger pukes at night. So one of them gets the biggest meal at one time of day, and another gets the biggest meal at the other time of day.

But, it seems kinda mean to make my big dog get no food while the two little ones are eating. So he eats twice, and the second meal is a very small amount. 

What I don't agree with are one-size-fits-all stuff. Tiny dogs get hypoglycemia if they don't eat several times a day. I had a dog I fed three times a day because she just did better that way. 

I don't know how I feel about starting organs late. I've always started organs in the first week or so, but then again I haven't had a dog that had problems with it.


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## OtherGuy (Nov 30, 2016)

OldGnarlHead said:


> Cricket gets two meals a day, most of it in the morning (like 3/4) and then a little at night to hold her over until morning, with all her bone in the morning. Our math is as 100% as we can get, finding the average amount of bone online (usually sourcing from multiple sites, if possible) then we have an excel sheet that we have it all plugged into so we can just type the name of the cut and the weight of it and it will tell us how much bone is in it in ounces and how much over or under her daily amount it is.
> I believe that all dogs are different and 10% wont fit every dog and shouldn't be a hard and fast all-the-time-no-matter-what rule. Some days are a little bone heavy and then the next day is a little bone light to compensate for the previous day, but we don't have days where she doesn't have bone unless she had a really bony poop the day previous.
> I can't even count the amount of times I've read that switching to a new protein or organ resulted in cannon butt, but it's a lot. That's the only thing I think it could be now, seeing how quickly it cleared up after we stopped feeding the beef.
> Also, we are as close to PMR ratios as we can be without the organ percentage. Id really like it if I had to stop saying that, but I believe the PMR ratio is a thing for a reason and we stay as close as possible to it over a week's span.


Feeding morning meals may be part of the problem. Dogs fed raw don't require frequent meals to "hold them over" or to maintain blood sugar. Canines are unlike people in this regard (although the issue is complicated when feeding unnatural amounts of carbohydrates to dogs). 

I'd try once a day meals. Feeding after the dog's day is done. Then they can rest and digest their meals with a minimum of upset. Morning meals are not a dog's friend.

Bill


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## OtherGuy (Nov 30, 2016)

xellil said:


> You have big dogs. I have a mixture of big dogs and small dogs. I don't like my small dogs to go 24 hours without food.
> 
> Not only that, but I have a dog that gets hunger pukes in the morning and another one that gets hunger pukes at night. So one of them gets the biggest meal at one time of day, and another gets the biggest meal at the other time of day.
> 
> ...


I'd suggest that you haven't had a dog that's had problems with organs precisely because you've started early. It's the pattern I've seen commonly. Dogs who get organs early (lowly building up ammounts) have no problems and like eating organs, those who are delayed have more issues and develop more aversions to eating organs.

So I dissent from the advice to delay.

I'm suprised a toy dog that's burning fat as the primary energy source (with protein second, and no carbs) would be prone to hypoglycemia since the canine metabolism is so efficient at converting stored fat into glucose. I want to know if the dogs getting adequate fat in the diet?

I'd feed twice a day if I *had to*, but not as a rule.

Bill


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## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

It's the really small ones that have trouble going without food for 24 hours. My small dogs don't get hypoglycemia. They're not small enough. They just get really hungry. I have a an elderly dachshund who prefers to eat her big meal early so everyone gets to eat with her, at least a small amount. If I had a search and rescue German Shepherd he would eat once a day so he didn't puke up his breakfast. Not every dog is the same, not every situation is the same, and not every owner is the same. 

I don't know why you believe dogs who start organs early do OK with them. Was that in a study somewhere? I've never started with small amounts. I apparently have dogs with cast iron stomachs. 

I do know several people who started organs early, and not very much, and it didn't work. Every dog is different. My preference would certainly be to get them on organs as early as possible, and it is true that it's been my experience that organs aren't what causes the trouble but overfeeding. But if they wait? Most likely they're waiting because the dog is having trouble tolerating.


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## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

I did screw up a foster dog once, but I overfed him.


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## OldGnarlHead (Feb 17, 2016)

From everything Ive read, organs are always the LAAAST thing you feed. We can start feeding her _minuscule_ amounts right now if you think that will work. 

Also, I know I wouldn't want to work a full day on an empty stomach. Nothing would make me hangrier. Also Cricket gets into a lot more mischief when she gets hungry. Like lots. more. mischief. Not to mention, since Arne and I are gone the majority of the morning and afternoon, she gets most of her exercise in the evening. Or she gets a good game of ball and chase in the morning then breakfast. Raw food is supposed to digest much faster than other food as well, so after an hour we don't really worry about her puking up her food. Not to mention that we just like feeding her twice a day. It works for us. 

Also Cricket didn't mind that bit of liver she got. She'll eat anything you give her.


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## naturalfeddogs (Jan 6, 2011)

Each dog is an individual just like us, so "know thy dog" and feed according to how it works best for her.


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## OldGnarlHead (Feb 17, 2016)

If her poops continue to stay normal I might try adding in teeny tiiiny bits of organ. If I knew it was possibly okay to start earlier with really small bits of organ I would have a little earlier...


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## OtherGuy (Nov 30, 2016)

OldGnarlHead said:


> From everything Ive read, organs are always the LAAAST thing you feed. We can start feeding her _minuscule_ amounts right now if you think that will work.
> 
> Also, I know I wouldn't want to work a full day on an empty stomach. Nothing would make me hangrier. Also Cricket gets into a lot more mischief when she gets hungry. Like lots. more. mischief. Not to mention, since Arne and I are gone the majority of the morning and afternoon, she gets most of her exercise in the evening. Or she gets a good game of ball and chase in the morning then breakfast. Raw food is supposed to digest much faster than other food as well, so after an hour we don't really worry about her puking up her food. Not to mention that we just like feeding her twice a day. It works for us.
> 
> Also Cricket didn't mind that bit of liver she got. She'll eat anything you give her.


There are many shibboleths that are repeated in the raw feeding community that you might read "everywhere" that are simply not true.

One such example is the notion that raw fed meals are more rapidly digested than kibble based meals. This has proved to be completely untrue whenever it has been tested. The rates of digestion are similar, with kibble passing a bit faster (not really suprizing as we are talking about a highly processed foodstuf vs meat and bone).

There is no doubt in my mind that a PRM diet is far superior to a kibble based diet (no contest), but raw does not digest faster it digests more slowly.

Do as you will on feedings, but be aware that those involved in canine endurance sports (mushing, hunting, etc) almost always avoid morning feedings, as it is very hard on dogs to run on full bellies and it tends to cause GI upset. I think this is especially true when the dogs meals include natural bone. The best thing for a dog to do post PMR meal is to take a long rest. A dog might seem more mellowed out post meal (because that's the natural response) but unless that dog is going to sleep all day it is not optimal. 

Given this dog's difficult transition to date, I'd change the practice of twice daily meals as it is known to cause the very problems you are experiencing.

It is anthropomorphizing dogs to think they have the same needs for frequent meals as humans do. That is a mistake. The main rationale for feeding dogs PMR is that they are essentially carnivores and not omnivores like humans. Multiple daily meals isn't really species appropriate. 

When fed high-fat/high-protein meals (once a day) dogs have plenty of available fat ready to convert in to glucose. The canine physiology is remarkably efficient metabolizing fat and it provides a very steady supply of glycogen on demand to muscles and brain. This is very different from humans who look to carbohydrates to fuel endurance. When dogs are fed high-carbohydrate rations things change. Carbs cause a quick surge in blood glycogen, after which there is a crash.

I've said my piece on organs. Delaying serves no good purpose IMO. It eliminates vital nutrients from meals and tends to set up food aversions. Slowly building up organ percentages with generally balanced meals is best unless proven otherwise. As with all matters, if something isn't working for an individual dog, then adjust.

You could start with small amounts of chicken liver. Do get Cricket stable first.

I realize much of my advise is running contrary to what you've read everywhere. But I believe that if you started feeding once-a-day meals that were close to PRM rations that your dog's difficulties would go away.

Best wishes,

Bill


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## OldGnarlHead (Feb 17, 2016)

I just don't believe in trusting just one source, is my problem, really. I try to avoid developing biases as much as possible, however impossible that is. I'll probably start giving her tiny bits of organs starting as soon as possible. I've always felt uncomfortable having to wait so long for her to be nutritionally complete, even if it's not a really pressing issue. Juuuust can't wait until she's fully transitioned.


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## OldGnarlHead (Feb 17, 2016)

So we were doing great for about three days. And then yesterday she had some runny poop again and this morning it was pretty liquid again.. I think I might be feeding too much for the moment. AAAAAAAAAAAAAHHH i just want it to be better...


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## naturalfeddogs (Jan 6, 2011)

It will get better, but you may need to reduce how much you are feeding. Also, are you feeding anything that may be too high in sodium?


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## OldGnarlHead (Feb 17, 2016)

The only thing is those turkey necks (105mg) which she hasn't had in a while but everything else is clean. I think we were just too ambitious getting her up in ounces again. I think we're going to fast for tonight and then start over entirely from square one.


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## OldGnarlHead (Feb 17, 2016)

Im thinking it was maybe too much bone too fast? Cause she had two days of liquid poop and then apparently her poop this morning was really bony. I don't know how, really, cause our math was as spot on as we could make it. I think that we're still going to start from scratch just to be safe.


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## naturalfeddogs (Jan 6, 2011)

Yep, sometimes you just have to start over if things get a little out of control. And again, why I never stress over the "math" part of it. It's easy to start paying more attention to numbers than what the dog actually needs. Don't worry, you'll get a handle back on it! Just start over and go slow and steady.


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## OldGnarlHead (Feb 17, 2016)

I think im going to try adding minuscule amounts of organ to her meals, like a sliver, just to kinda feel it out. I really don't feel comfy with her being nutritionally incomplete for so long.


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## OtherGuy (Nov 30, 2016)

Starting over, and following the same path that hasn't worked thus far, makes no sense to me.

Boney stools raise alarms. Going back to chicken (only) amplifies the likelihood of feeding too much bone, as you'd have to feed a lot of boneless chicken to balance meals to PRM ratios.

The need to "transition" is way over-blown IMO. The only sound reason to do so is to make sure a dog doesn't have an intolerance or allergy to a particular protein.

I'd advise once-a-day (end-of-day) feedings in strict PMR ratios (slowly working up the organ part) with diversified proteins until the dog is stable.

Bill


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## OldGnarlHead (Feb 17, 2016)

DUDE how many times do I have to tell you *WE. FEED. PMR. RATIOS.* ALSO the fact that you are the ONLY source I have EVER come across that has said that 'transition isn't necessary". OH, and guess what IT DID WORK BEFORE she was FINE until _I_ started going too fast with beef. YOU ARE ABSOLUTELY NOT HELPING YOU ARE MAKING ME 100% MORE STRESSED OUT ABOUT THIS.
NO IT DOES NOT "AMPLIFY" FEEDING TOO MUCH BONE, I HAVE NO IDEA HOW IT COULD BECAUSE WE DO THE SAME MATH FOR CHICKEN AS WE DO ANY OTHER MEAT. ITS NOT LIKE IM DUMB AND JUST FEED HER CHICKEN QUARTERS EVERY DAY. I TAKE THE SPINE OFF, I DEBONE THE THIGHS AND LEGS TO ADD BONELESS MEAT TO HER MEALS, AND I'M REALLY STARTING TO THINK YOU JUST SERIOUSLY JUST READ HALF OF WHAT I SAY BEFORE BLATHERING ON.


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## naturalfeddogs (Jan 6, 2011)

Kells, don't let that bother you. We have all moved to fast at some point and had the same issue. Now you have figured out what caused it, so go back to where you were before the diarrhea started. Just for a couple of days, and once things have improved again slowly start back. You know where you made your mistake, so approach it slower this time. All will be fine.


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## OldGnarlHead (Feb 17, 2016)

Sorry it's been a rough and stressful week


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## naturalfeddogs (Jan 6, 2011)

It's ok. Just know you aren't doing anything wrong, you figured out the problem and are able to fix it. It's part of learning your dog, about what works and what doesn't. Believe me me, not one of my six is exactly the same as each other. I have to do things a little differently with each of them. It just comes from "knowing thy dog".


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## OldGnarlHead (Feb 17, 2016)

:deep breaths: yeah. itll get there... she'll be fully transitioned before I know it


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## OtherGuy (Nov 30, 2016)

OldGnarlHead said:


> DUDE how many times do I have to tell you *WE. FEED. PMR. RATIOS.* ALSO the fact that you are the ONLY source I have EVER come across that has said that 'transition isn't necessary". OH, and guess what IT DID WORK BEFORE she was FINE until _I_ started going too fast with beef. YOU ARE ABSOLUTELY NOT HELPING YOU ARE MAKING ME 100% MORE STRESSED OUT ABOUT THIS.
> NO IT DOES NOT "AMPLIFY" FEEDING TOO MUCH BONE, I HAVE NO IDEA HOW IT COULD BECAUSE WE DO THE SAME MATH FOR CHICKEN AS WE DO ANY OTHER MEAT. ITS NOT LIKE IM DUMB AND JUST FEED HER CHICKEN QUARTERS EVERY DAY. I TAKE THE SPINE OFF, I DEBONE THE THIGHS AND LEGS TO ADD BONELESS MEAT TO HER MEALS, AND I'M REALLY STARTING TO THINK YOU JUST SERIOUSLY JUST READ HALF OF WHAT I SAY BEFORE BLATHERING ON.


I'd prefer not being addressed as Dude, or screamed at in all caps.

You said you wanted different opinions, but complain when I offer you alternatives. I'm sorry you are having such troubles.

I'm out.

Good luck.

Bill


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## OldGnarlHead (Feb 17, 2016)

Update:

Took Cricket into the vet today. Surprisingly, the vets there are perfectly okay with raw feeding! They have a client who's been going there for years who has been raw feeding forever, and apparently she told them it's okay to give out her email and number so that people can talk to her about any problems they have with raw feeding! They said she was perfectly fine temperature-wise and otherwise, no comment on her weight (she lost another pound, she's now 38 lbs... :'/ ) They said the slippery elm we have been giving her was fine. Fecal was done but the results weren't back yet for worms/bacterium. They gave us two prescriptions, Sucralfate and Metronidazole. They said one was an anti-inflammatory/antibiotic to help reduce irritation in her GI tract and to kill off any bacteria that might be causing problems, and the other is to coat her stomach and intestines in case anything is causing irritation in her system. They suggested a diet of cooked rice and boiled chicken for the next few days with the meds and then to slowly transition back to the raw. Will update how things go.


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## naturalfeddogs (Jan 6, 2011)

I knew the vets would load you up on all that junk.......What it's going to do is temporarily cover symptoms, and mess with the immune system. Not fix anything. What you will need to do is start back over from the beginning, slowly with red meats/organs.

Im so glad you found a vet who's cool with raw! That a rare find!


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## OldGnarlHead (Feb 17, 2016)

I honestly think at this point she needed the antibiotics. She's been on just chicken for a week and it got worse. Right now our main priority is to get weight on her and to get her fully transitioned because she is loosing weight at an alarming speed now and it's worrying all of us.


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