# What would you include?



## Doc (Jan 17, 2009)

If someone were to develop a "new" kibble - what ingredients would you include in it? What protein sources? What % of protein, fat and fiber? It would be an all stage kibble. Would you want it baked instead of extruded? Would you perfer a limited ingredient product? Would you want it to be grain-free? beet pulp free? tomato pumace free? No corn, soy, wheat.

OK kibble feeders, lets "create" our ideal kibble!


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## chowder (Sep 7, 2008)

Here is my choice......I took Orijen and I modified it and took out what I don't like about it and added a few things. I moved the sweet potato way down the list and it's up to the chemists to figure out how to hold it all together with less potatoes. I left some pumpkin in it for the fiber for dogs that are adjusting to the high meat content. I don't care whether it is baked or extruded. 



INGREDIENTS
Fresh chicken , chicken meal inclusive of bone, turkey meal, herring meal, fresh lake deboned whitefish, chicken fat (naturally preserved with vitamin E and citric acid), chicken liver and kidneys, fresh whole eggs, sweet potato, pumpkin, vitamin supplements (vitamin A, vitamin D3, vitamin E, niacin, vitamin C, thiamine mononitrate, riboflavin, vitamin B5, vitamin B6, folic acid, biotin, vitamin B12), mineral supplements (zinc proteinate, iron proteinate, manganese proteinate, copper proteinate, selenium), dried Lactobacillus acidophilus product, dried Enterococcus faecium fermentation product.


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## kevin bradley (Aug 9, 2009)

I'd do what Orijen does. :wink:


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## Doc (Jan 17, 2009)

Assuming Orijen can not be copied - i.e. think outside the box - what would include? Also, how much are you willing to pay for it (per pound)?

I agree Orijen may be the best on the market for some, but surely we can come up with a better product. I'm trying to improve on what is already out there at a price that is affordable to the average dog owner that often times buys "crap" kibble because they do not know any better. Or is sold on it by the power of advertisement.


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## wags (Jan 31, 2009)

I'm with Chowder!:smile:


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## CorgiPaws (Mar 31, 2009)

I, too, am going to start with Orijen's ingredient list, at least the first 20 ingredients. I realize that starches are necessary to bind a kibble, so I won't remove those.

Here it is as it reads on Orijen's website:


Fresh deboned chicken, 
chicken meal, 
turkey meal, 
russet potato,
fresh deboned pacific salmon (a natural source of DHA and EPA), 
herring meal, 
sweet potato, 
peas, 
fresh deboned lake whitefish, 
fresh deboned northern walleye, 
chicken fat (naturally preserved with vitamin E and citric acid), 
chicken liver, 
salmon meal, 
fresh deboned turkey, 
fresh whole eggs, 
fresh deboned herring, 
sun-cured alfalfa, 
salmon oil, 
chicory root, 
dehydrated organic kelp, 

And Revised:

Fresh deboned duck, 
Duck meal, 
Quail, 
Duck Liver,
russet potato,
turkey meal, 
sweet potato, 
peas, 
cod liver oil,
fresh deboned turkey, 
fresh deboned quail, 
turkey liver, 
salmon meal, 
fresh whole eggs, 
quail meal, 
sun-cured alfalfa, 
salmon oil, 
chicory root, 
dehydrated organic kelp, 



I like "alternative" protein sources. This would be a Duck & Quail formula that is chicken and fish free. Other formulas that I think would be interesting would be:
Rabbit & Turkey
Chicken & Turkey
Beef & Buffalo
Venison & Rabbit
Fish & Tripe



I would certainly prefer tomato pomace & beet pulp free, as well as clear of corn, wheat, and soy.
I'm not necessarily set on grain free, as starches are NECESSARY to bind a kibble, so you simply can't remove them. 

Thanks for an interesting thread!


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## Doc (Jan 17, 2009)

How about a lamb and brown rice formula?:smile:


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## CorgiPaws (Mar 31, 2009)

Doc said:


> How about a lamb and brown rice formula?:smile:


it's been done. :smile:
Though I will say that when I'm picking a kibble, which I never thought I'd be doing again, but alas... here I am... I am more interested in the animal protein sources than I am the starches. I really have no preference between something like barley and say... sweet potato. Brown rice is no different to me than russet potato. 

But, I DO like different protein sources. I suppose combining them (like Canidae ALS has done) isn't a bad choice, but I actually like them a bit separate. I like to rotate to keep things interesting for my girls, which was one of the draws of TOTW for me... the FOUR different formulas rather than one or two like most lines. 

I don't like to feed any ONE thing for an extended period of time.


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## Unosmom (May 3, 2009)

I like the idea behind using natural sources for vitamin/minerals instead of synthetic ones, as far as I'm aware only Natures Logic does this. 

Grain free, low carb, if theres need for starches, use it only to bind the kibble, not to bulk up nutrient content. 

I also like the idea of using various protein sources, would be good for dogs with allergies and for variety. 

I wish every company had open door policy for people to come in and take tours through the factory to see how the food is made, the manufacturing practices, sanitation, etc.


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## RCTRIPLEFRESH5 (Feb 11, 2010)

CorgiPaws said:


> I, too, am going to start with Orijen's ingredient list, at least the first 20 ingredients. I realize that starches are necessary to bind a kibble, so I won't remove those.
> 
> Here it is as it reads on Orijen's website:
> 
> ...


but not all starches re grains. like pptaters.

that duck formula looks awesome though. if it were made by an american company id buy

hen it comes to dog food, id set the cap at 100 dollars per 30 pound bag. hoenstlly i dont understand how people cant afford premium dog foods. a 30 pound bag lasts my 80 pound golden 1.5 months....


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## CorgiPaws (Mar 31, 2009)

RCTRIPLEFRESH5 said:


> but not all starches re grains. like pptaters.


Right, I'm sorry. I didn't word it clearly. 
I was meaning to say that while I think starches are not desirable, they are necessary. 
And on that front, I really don't think that potato is any better than rice or barley. So, it's not what starch is used (within reason, obviously excluding corn, wheat, soy, etc) that draws my attention, but rather the protein source. I would like Orijen UST as much if "russet potato" were replaced with brown rice. To me, they are pretty much the same thing.


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## Doc (Jan 17, 2009)

So what I am hearing - i.e. starches - is that it isn't a big deal because the main purpose of the starch is to bind the kibble. Correct me if I am wrong. And would a combination of protein sources be more interesting than a single source? 

I like single sources just because it is easier to determine if the dog is allergic to a specific protein source. 

As far as vitamins and minerals, I always thought that these additives are often useless because of the high temperature used during the extrusion process. I think some companies add chelated minerals as a way around that issue. Has anyone seen any data that shows the actual available amount of vitamins and minerals in a bag of kibble when it is served to the dog? The companies may be adding them, but are they still in an available form after processing?


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## kevin bradley (Aug 9, 2009)

Doc said:


> I agree Orijen may be the best on the market for some, but surely we can come up with a better product. I'm trying to improve on what is already out there at a price that is affordable to the average dog owner that often times buys "crap" kibble because they do not know any better. Or is sold on it by the power of advertisement.



Doc,

I say this respectfully... it's a bit over confident to say "SURELY" we can come up with something different. 

To say it that confidently...that WE on an internet forum can come up with something that tops Orijen.... is probably a bit of a stretch. You're talking about the top Dry Dog food in existence, folks who probably have worked pretty hard to put out the best product available. 

"COULD" you do this? I don't know, maybe. Possibly. Is this just a hypothetical or are you seriously considering trying to formulate a new food?


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## CorgiPaws (Mar 31, 2009)

Doc said:


> So what I am hearing - i.e. starches - is that it isn't a big deal because the main purpose of the starch is to bind the kibble. Correct me if I am wrong. And would a combination of protein sources be more interesting than a single source?


I can only speak for myself here, but this is how i see it:

Are starches desirable? Absolutely not. BUT, it's impossible to make a kibble without them, so it's inevitable that they'll be there. 
Things like corn, soy, and wheat are obviously unacceptable in my book, but things like brown rice, barley, and millet are, to me, the same as potato. I'm just not quite on board with all grains being a million times worse than potato. The food I buy is grain free. (TOTW) but that's not really why I buy it. I buy it because I like the protein sources, and I like that it comes in four different formulas for rotation sake. Should TOTW replace Potato for Brown rice, I'd still buy it and think nothing of it. *shrug*

As for the protein sources, I think it all depends on the dog. I like to see formulas that are what they say they are. If it's "Duck" I don't want to see deboned duck followed by chicken meal, but that's how most foods are now. I don't mind seeing more than one meat in any given formula because reality is: it's rarely the meat that's the actual allergen, but that debate is a different thread altogether. 
I think for allergy dogs, perhaps a single source line IS in fact necessary... but for your average, healthy no allergy, no digestive issues dog... why not give more?


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## Doc (Jan 17, 2009)

kevin bradley said:


> Doc,
> 
> I say this respectfully... it's a bit over confident to say "SURELY" we can come up with something different.
> 
> ...


Our only limitation is our mind. I have feed Orijen since it's inception until it got so expensive and hard to keep a consistent supply. I was forced - by the company and the cost to change.

I do not think for a second that Champion has the corner on the "best" kibble. And yes, we have the brain power to take the work done by Champion has done and improve on it. Champion wasn't discouraged when they entered the market. Their product is good and their marketing is outstanding.

I'm not asking this to debate what is already in the market. If you would like to "formulate" your input into a kibble, your ideas would be appreciated. But to say "we" can't come up with something better than Orijen - well, it's a good thing others didn't stop when facing Purina a few years ago.


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## CorgiPaws (Mar 31, 2009)

By golly... I'm agreeing with Doc here. 
Who thought I'd ever see the day. 
:tongue::biggrin::smile:


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## lancewil27 (Aug 19, 2010)

As long as you are trying to be educated to give what you feel is the best food for your buddy, then that is great...


THE BEST AND MOST IMPORTANT INGREDIENT IS "LOVE"........


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## kevin bradley (Aug 9, 2009)

Doc said:


> Our only limitation is our mind. I have feed Orijen since it's inception until it got so expensive and hard to keep a consistent supply. I was forced - by the company and the cost to change.
> 
> I do not think for a second that Champion has the corner on the "best" kibble. And yes, we have the brain power to take the work done by Champion has done and improve on it. Champion wasn't discouraged when they entered the market. Their product is good and their marketing is outstanding.
> 
> I'm not asking this to debate what is already in the market. If you would like to "formulate" your input into a kibble, your ideas would be appreciated. But to say "we" can't come up with something better than Orijen - well, it's a good thing others didn't stop when facing Purina a few years ago.



Ok, Tony Robbins :wink:

I'm just being realistic, Doc. You're right, we can do anything we want. 

Good luck beating up on Orijen in the marketplace.


I guess, find a way to put more meat into kibble. But thats only half the battle. HOW to do this is your hurdle. Its about WAY more than what to stick in the kibble.


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## Doc (Jan 17, 2009)

kevin bradley said:


> Ok, Tony Robbins :wink:
> 
> I'm just being realistic, Doc. You're right, we can do anything we want.
> 
> ...


I could teach Tony a thing or two Kevin. :wink:

You are not being realistic - you are throwing in the towel without even trying. Orijen is a good kibble, from a good company - although they have trouble honoring their breeders agreement. But that's an issue with customer service and relations. Their product is good - but pricey and supply/distribution is an issue. May be not for you but for others in the country.

May be you would be interested in Wysong's Epigen. And no, I do not work for any dog food company. I just study and analyze kibble that is in the market. Wysong hasn't thrown in towel - so there must be ways to improve on the kibble that is currently on the market.

Oh ye of little faith ... Let's try to keep this thread upbeat and open. Kevin, I think we all see your position on this matter. I'm sorry you have chosen to urinate in my corn flakes.


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## kevin bradley (Aug 9, 2009)

Doc said:


> I could teach Tony a thing or two Kevin. :wink:
> 
> You are not being realistic - you are throwing in the towel without even trying. Orijen is a good kibble, from a good company - although they have trouble honoring their breeders agreement. But that's an issue with customer service and relations. Their product is good - but pricey and supply/distribution is an issue. May be not for you but for others in the country.
> 
> ...



yeah, I am definitely --glass half empty-- at this stage of my life. I'm sure you COULD do something cool in the category. 

so let's back up...I'll give you my opinion.

Meat. Meat. Meat. Heck, thats what everyone here talks about. Its darn near what the ENTIRE rating system on DFA is structured around. Its the core of RAW feeding as I understand it, etc... 

thats my dead serious response... find a way to add as much meat as you can in the kibble. My sense is that there are ceilings you will hit in terms of how much meat/protein you can stuff into kibble but I honestly don't know for certain. 

all the other stuff that needs to be in there?... no clue. Vitamins and Minerals, carbs, etc... no idea.


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## Doc (Jan 17, 2009)

Ok Kevin, meat it is. A meat kibble with just enough sticky stuff to hold it together. I assume the sticky stuff will be a carb of some sort. The Wysong product is starch free and 60% protein - not bad for a kibble. I think they use peas as the binder but not 100% sure.

Now about that glass ... if you can see that it is only 1/2 empty, then you can also see that it is 1/2 full, right? Focus on what is there, not what is gone. At least try to, ok?:wink: There is nothing wrong with getting tired, but never give up.:smile:


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## kevin bradley (Aug 9, 2009)

Doc said:


> Ok Kevin, meat it is. A meat kibble with just enough sticky stuff to hold it together. I assume the sticky stuff will be a carb of some sort. The Wysong product is starch free and 60% protein - not bad for a kibble. I think they use peas as the binder but not 100% sure.
> 
> Now about that glass ... if you can see that it is only 1/2 empty, then you can also see that it is 1/2 full, right? Focus on what is there, not what is gone. At least try to, ok?:wink: There is nothing wrong with getting tired, but never give up.:smile:



true. hey, if you can honestly make a product BETTER than Orijen for less money.... I'll be the first in line.


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## sassymaxmom (Dec 7, 2008)

Here it is.
Wysong Epigen Starch Free Dog Food, Cat Food, Pet Food

Ingredients: *Organic Chicken*, Chicken Meal, *Chicken Giblets*, Vegetable Protein (consisting of one or more of the following: Potato Protein, Rice Protein, Corn Protein, Wheat Protein), Poultry Fat (preserved with mixed Tocopherols as a source of Vitamin E), *Eggs*, Yogurt, Flax Seed, Apple, Beet Pulp, Plums, Inulin, *Dried Wheat Grass Powder, Dried Barley Grass Powder, Krill Oil, Dried Kelp, Taurine,* Oregano Extract, Sage Extract, Rosemary Extract, Probiotic Microorganisms (Bacillus subtilis, Enterococcus faecium, Lactobacillus plantarum, Lactococcus lactis, Lactobacillus casei, Lactobacillus acidophilus, Lactobacillus lactis), Ascorbic Acid, Zinc Proteinate, Iron Proteinate, Vitamin E Supplement, Niacin Supplement, Manganese Proteinate, Calcium Pantothenate, Thiamine Mononitrate, Copper Proteinate, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride, Riboflavin Supplement, Vitamin A Acetate, Folic Acid, Biotin, Vitamin B12 Supplement, Vitamin D3 Supplement.* (For an explanation of Epigen's™ ingredients see below.)

Starting with this recipe I would take out the veggie proteins, flaxseed, herb extracts and yogurt. I would use low starch fibrous veggies like kale, spinach, zucchini instead. Love that there are chicken organs in this. I would use all chicken with its skin and fat so no rendered meal or fat in my dry dog food. I would prefer whole fresh fish used instead of krill oil. 

Pretty sure it wouldn't fluff up when extruded so rolled flat and curled like pasta might work better to give it some bulk. I would want the food processed at no more than the temperature of boiling water.

I like the look of this kibble as listed better than Orijen just because there are fewer ingredients. I am pretty sure the teensy bits of whortleberries or whatever add nothing to the food value and are just there to look good. 

I see the calcium supplement is far down the list of supplements, is this made with whole bone in chicken?

I would also make several different recipes instead of throwing all sorts of meats into each bag.


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