# High Fat grain free kibble?



## whiteleo (Sep 7, 2008)

Just got a Bull Terrier rescue in and he is extremely thin, so thin I can count ribs and hip bones are jutting out. Looking for a high fat kibble, he is currently eating Acana Pacifica GF kibble mixed with canned tripe and am giving several small meals throughout the day. Any ideas would be appreciated. He is approximate 2 and I just had him neutered and a fecal done which I'm waiting on the results.


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## DaViking (Sep 27, 2011)

I don't know any who use high fat high energy formulas daily that feed grain free. Even Abady Feeds, which have crazy calorie numbers, use a small amount of rice. The problem with Acana Pacifica is that even if it have a relatively high fat percentage the energy per gram fed is still on the low side. What you can do is to add in a few tablespoons of pure lard. Packs a good punch at around 100 calories per 10g.


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## SaharaNight Boxers (Jun 28, 2011)

Nature's Farmacy has two supplements for weight gain, Gain & Shine and a powdered animal fat product. They might be worth a shot. Then you wouldn't have to worry about switching kibble also.


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## monster'sdad (Jul 29, 2012)

Dr. Tim's Momentum...among the lowest carbs on the market, 35/25. I know you said GF but not sure why its important. 

Far lower in carbs than virtually all grain free foods. 15% by calories I would suspect.

Inukshuk makes a 32/32 but that food is not easy to get unless you ship a skid from eastern Canada.

If you want a high calorie/fat supplement the gold standard is Annamaet Impact. Cornell and Penn use it on post op dogs and dogs literally on death's door. You can get it online easily. It is excellent stuff if you are doing rescue. It has a bunch of protein and fat and loads of enzymes.


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## monster'sdad (Jul 29, 2012)

DaViking said:


> I don't know any who use high fat high energy formulas daily that feed grain free. Even Abady Feeds, which have crazy calorie numbers, use a small amount of rice. The problem with Acana Pacifica is that even if it have a relatively high fat percentage the energy per gram fed is still on the low side. What you can do is to add in a few tablespoons of pure lard. Packs a good punch at around 100 calories per 10g.


People using high fat formulas are performance people and would never us a GF food.


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## DaViking (Sep 27, 2011)

schism said:


> Can't too much fat at one time cause pancreatitis? Dog Pancreatitis: Types, Causes, Symptoms, and Treatments


Too much at one time is no good but whiteleo already feed several small meals per day so it shouldn't be a problem.


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## monster'sdad (Jul 29, 2012)

DaViking said:


> Too much at one time is no good but whiteleo already feed several small meals per day so it shouldn't be a problem.


It this is a concern you can use coconut oil, which is digested without loading the pancreas.


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## DaViking (Sep 27, 2011)

monster'sdad said:


> It this is a concern you can use coconut oil, which is digested without loading the pancreas.


Yes, coconut oil is a good alternative to lard when the distribution between saturated, monounsaturated and polyunsaturated fat doesn't matter and you don't want to stress the pancreas. Similar energy per g.


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## 1605 (May 27, 2009)

whiteleo said:


> Just got a Bull Terrier rescue in and he is extremely thin, so thin I can count ribs and hip bones are jutting out. Looking for a high fat kibble, he is currently eating Acana Pacifica GF kibble mixed with canned tripe and am giving several small meals throughout the day. Any ideas would be appreciated. He is approximate 2 and I just had him neutered and a fecal done which I'm waiting on the results.


I know I've put this up in other threads, but have you considered EVO? Their Turkey/Chicken is ~43% protein & almost 23% fat. 

It works for my GSPs because they are so high energy & can't keep weight on with some of the other foods.

FWIW,


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## Georgiapeach (Jan 24, 2011)

Here's a link to Evo Turkey and Chicken Formula: EVO Dry Dog Food | Review and Rating. It's 42% protein; 22% fat, according to this site.


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## monster'sdad (Jul 29, 2012)

Evo is high in protein and fat but the ash levels are excessive. 1.57% Phosphorous might be tolerable for some dogs over a lifetime but since there is no benefit, it is not worth experimenting IMO.


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## DaViking (Sep 27, 2011)

monster'sdad said:


> Evo is high in protein and fat but the ash levels are excessive. 1.57% Phosphorous might be tolerable for some dogs over a lifetime but since there is no benefit, it is not worth experimenting IMO.


Not to mention the protein which will for most just lead to more heat generated and nitrogen flushing. I don't doubt it works good for Submariners active GSPs but for most 310% of what is already a generous all life stages protein recommendation is a little beyond me.


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## whiteleo (Sep 7, 2008)

schism said:


> Since you feed raw, why not satin balls?


I don't feed raw to my fosters as I won't have them long enough to transition them fully.


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## whiteleo (Sep 7, 2008)

I may consider the EVO, it would be for a short term as I would go back to the Acana once there was at least 5-8 more lbs on him, he weighs 36lbs and should be at least 50-55 lbs.


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## Liz (Sep 27, 2010)

How about adding a canned food - are not some of them a bit higher in fat?


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## mheath0429 (Sep 8, 2012)

I would add the coconut oil - I have used it with my male ot put some weight on and know quite a few in the Siberian Show world who use it to add weight on their males if they are looking skinny. What size is the dog?


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## whiteleo (Sep 7, 2008)

schism said:


> Well unless he has a super sensitive tummy, I don't see an issue with it.


Actually to properly transition a dog to raw it is about a 6-8 month process, I know because I did it. Dogs can eat raw no problem but for them to actually be able to utilize and digest the bone, well that doesn't happen over night. So, to go through the process of Chicken, turkey, pork, fish, beef and organ it takes way more time than I will have this dog and who wants to do something half way when it comes to our loved ones.


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## whiteleo (Sep 7, 2008)

Liz said:


> How about adding a canned food - are not some of them a bit higher in fat?


Liz, I will look into other canned foods, I'm currently feeding him Trippett canned added to his kibble.


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## monster'sdad (Jul 29, 2012)

Liz said:


> How about adding a canned food - are not some of them a bit higher in fat?


Canned food is not high in grams of fat because it is 70% to 80% water. If you look at the dry matter numbers the percentage is high but not the actual amount.

The supplement I mentioned is a dry powder and is 48% Protein an 30% fat.

Given what the poster is doing this is ideal because this product is inhaled by the dog's body and has been tested for about 25 years by rescue organizations, hospitals and sporting people.

Coconut fat is a quick fix but it is a very unbalanced fat for long-term use.


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## riddick4811 (Nov 2, 2011)

I haven't fed it long term, but got a few pounds worth of samples of Nature's Variety Instinct Raw Boost kibble and my dogs went absolutely nuts over. They almost got into a fight. Joey inhaled it. The chicken we got was 42% protein and 22% fat and 495kcal/cup. Just too pricey to feed to 6 dogs! They have duck/turkey and venison/lamb too. Nature's Variety: Instinct Grain-Free Raw Boost Kibble Diets for Dogs | Nature's Variety | Nature's Variety 

I've just been taking a small bag with us for long hiking trips for when I eat my energy bar, I give them each a bit of the kibble so really can't say how well it does.


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## PDXdogmom (Jun 30, 2010)

If you want to continue to feed a grain-free kibble but are also looking to add some weight, you might want to take a look at Fromm Surf & Turf: Grain-Free Surf & Turf dog food - Fromm Family Foods It has 30% protein and 19% fat.

I've found that when you keep the protein % and fat % close to a 10 point spread, that it's easier to keep weight on than when you get to a really high protein % like 38% with maybe 18% fat.


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## 1605 (May 27, 2009)

monster'sdad said:


> Evo is high in protein and fat but the ash levels are excessive. 1.57% Phosphorous might be tolerable for some dogs over a lifetime but since there is no benefit, it is not worth experimenting IMO.


You know, people keep bringing up the subject of ash & I have to admit that I'm still looking for some conclusive information about several things:

1) What is the actual acceptable level of ash. Not just your opinion, but from a qualified, objective nutritionist.

2) Is a higher level of ash actually harmful to your dog? Or is it simply the result of the testing process on higher protein level foods? Again, I would like actual objective information on this subject. 

3) Also, what is the significance of 1.57% phosphorous? How is this detrimental to dogs?


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## monster'sdad (Jul 29, 2012)

SubMariner said:


> You know, people keep bringing up the subject of ash & I have to admit that I'm still looking for some conclusive information about several things:
> 
> 1) What is the actual acceptable level of ash. Not just your opinion, but from a qualified, objective nutritionist.
> 
> ...


I will answer the question this way. Using a high ash food is like investing in a stock or piece of real estate that can only down in value. You are feeding about 2lbs more mineral per bag than you have to. Phosphorous is the key damaging mineral to kidneys. Can some dogs live a happy healthy life on that much phoshorous? The answer is yes but since 1.57% has no benefit, the risk is all downside. Logic tells you that high phosphorous can be as damaging to healthy kidneys as diseased kidneys. Is it worth the risk? IMO no because there is no fix.

As for what is the right amount of ash? Most people believe that once a poultry-based food gets beyond around 8% you are dealing with sub-standard ingredients, namely protein meals with lots of bone and a GA that is not entirely truthful. Gross protein from cooked bone is not a valuable form of protein but it gets counted. So Evo at 42% may be misleading given the ash at over 12%. 

So, when you consider these points 1) It can be damaging, 2) There is no upside & 3) You pay for it, seems like three good reasons to avoid it.

You have some top dogs there, and I would protect them. If you look at competing high protein foods you will find an Ash/Protein ratio that is much better. Less risk and better protein. EVO is .30, Annamaet Ultra is .19, Dr. Tim's Pursuit is .21, Dr. Tim's Momentum is .17, Eukanuba 30/20 is .19, Pro Plan Performance is about .18 and Precise Endurance is 21%. To me the fact these foods have protein levels between 30 - 35% means nothing because the protein is better quality and, in the end, all that matters is how many grams they wind up eating. I realize that Purina uses corn gluten but given the choice between those two, I would pick the low ash food with corn gluten.

I have always thought that protein level in Evo was overstated and the ash comparison proves it. Oh, 1.57% is very close to the allowable limit of 1.60% and the recommend amount for an ALS food is .80%, you did ask that.


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## DaViking (Sep 27, 2011)

SubMariner said:


> You know, people keep bringing up the subject of ash & I have to admit that I'm still looking for some conclusive information about several things:
> 
> 1) What is the actual acceptable level of ash. Not just your opinion, but from a qualified, objective nutritionist.
> 
> ...


3) 1.57% phosphorus is 1.7% dry matter. Say you have a dog that weighs 20lb, the recommended feeding amount from EVO is 143g of the Turkey & Chicken formula. You will be feeding 2.43g of phosphorus per day. The recommended upper limit for a healthy adult human is 4.0g per day. What is the problem with high levels of phosphorus? Phosphate in the blood draws calcium to the kidneys (among others) which leads to calcification of the kidneys. Once you get calcification nephrons, the kidney’s micro filters, get compromised.

1.7% phosphorus DM is above the maximum AAFCO requirement but since EVO Turkey & Chicken is above 4.0kcal/g they are allowed to exceed the maximum value, hoping dog owners feed less so it equals out with foods below 4.0kcal/g. Still it's right there bordering unhealthy levels. When humans should have no more than 4 grams per day I don't know how comfortable I would be with feeding a 20lb dog around 2.5 grams per day for a lifetime. Might go well but it could go wrong too. The chances of going wrong is higher compared to a more moderate level of phosphorus.

Phosphorus


> The most serious adverse effect of abnormally elevated blood levels of phosphate (hyperphosphatemia) is the calcification of non-skeletal tissues, most commonly the kidneys. Such calcium phosphate deposition can lead to organ damage, especially kidney damage.


1) and 2) is partly answered by number 3 since phosphorus is part of what is ash. In other words, ash is just a bucket term for all the minerals. Best case excessive ash is just filler, worst case there are elevated individual mineral levels like phosphorus. Ash level is just the product of all the minerals coming together.


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## monster'sdad (Jul 29, 2012)

I am all feeding protein levels above the old fashioned NRC guidlines based on what is now known about soft tissue injuries but not if there are risks to vital internal organs.


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## whiteleo (Sep 7, 2008)

Picked up a bag of the Instinct Boost kibble today, hopefully for as expensive as it is it will add some much needed weight to poor Sprocket


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## monster'sdad (Jul 29, 2012)

whiteleo said:


> Picked up a bag of the Instinct Boost kibble today, hopefully for as expensive as it is it will add some much needed weight to poor Sprocket


If not try Impact.


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## Felix (Oct 9, 2012)

Haven't read the entire thread, but I like canine caviar for putting weight on pets. It's a very calorie dense food. That's the only thing I have ever used it for (in my cats)


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## monster'sdad (Jul 29, 2012)

Felix said:


> Haven't read the entire thread, but I like canine caviar for putting weight on pets. It's a very calorie dense food. That's the only thing I have ever used it for (in my cats)


It is no more caloric than any other food. He misleads the public. I wish he would disclose calories by weight and not by cup. When you make teeny tiny kibbles more fit in the cup, thus the high calories he discloses on the website.

There is no way a 16% fat food is 599 calories a cup unless the kibble is very small compared to other foods.


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## Felix (Oct 9, 2012)

monster'sdad said:


> It is no more caloric than any other food. He misleads the public. I wish he would disclose calories by weight and not by cup. When you make teeny tiny kibbles more fit in the cup, thus the high calories he discloses on the website.
> 
> There is no way a 16% fat food is 599 calories a cup unless the kibble is very small compared to other foods.


I dunno, I've never fed it to my dog, but it did great for my cats. Very good improvement.


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## DaViking (Sep 27, 2011)

monster'sdad said:


> I am all feeding protein levels above the old fashioned NRC guidlines based on what is now known about soft tissue injuries but not if there are risks to vital internal organs.


Right but I see no reason to go above say 200% of what is already a generous ALS recommendation. There is no upside to that, only downside questions. Most formulators and nutritionists worth their salt still like to be in the 180% to 200% range for a maintenance/active type formulas.


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## DaViking (Sep 27, 2011)

monster'sdad said:


> It is no more caloric than any other food. He misleads the public. I wish he would disclose calories by weight and not by cup. When you make teeny tiny kibbles more fit in the cup, thus the high calories he discloses on the website.
> 
> There is no way a 16% fat food is 599 calories a cup unless the kibble is very small compared to other foods.


This is true. Royal-Canine PRO 4800 is 590 calories per cup at 28.5% fat. No way CC is in the same range, or same class for that matter.


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