# Grain Free Kibble for Large Breed Puppies



## SpooOwner (Oct 1, 2010)

I'd like to update the list of high-end GF foods suitable for a LBP that we created last year. Is this still accurate?



Acana Pacifica - 1.4-1.5% Ca :: 1.1-1.2% Ph
Acana Prairie - 1.3-1.4% Ca :: 1.1-1.2% Ph
Dogswell Chicken and Chickpea Recipe - 1.7% Ca : 1.1% Ph (Note: citric acid)
Fromm Grain-free Surf and Turf – 1.0% Ca : 0.9% Ph
Orijen Adult - 1.4-1.6% Ca :: 1.2-1.4% Ph
Orijen LBP - 1.5 - 1.7% Ca :: 1.2 - 1.4% Ph
Orijen Regional Red - 1.6 - 1.8% Ca :: 1.4 - 1.6% Ph
Orijen 6 Fish - 1.4-1.6% Ca :: 1.2-1.4% Ph
TOTW Sierra Mountains - 1.6% Ca

Not Suitable:



Acana Grasslands - 2% Ca
Canidae Grain-free ALS - 2% Ca
Dogswell Lamb and Chickpea Recipe - 2.2% Ca : 1.1% Ph (Note: flaxseed, citric acid)
Evo - high Ca
Fromm Grain-free Beef Fritata - low proportion of meat, but suitable Ca levels
Merrick Before Grain Chicken – 2.1% Ca
Merrick Before Grain Buffalo - 2% Ca
Merrick Before Grain Salmon - 2% Ca
TOTW High Prairie - 2.1% Ca
TOTW Pacific Stream - 1.9% Ca
TOTW Wetlands - 2.1% Ca


----------



## westminsterthree (Jan 10, 2012)

SpooOwner said:


> I'd like to update the list of high-end GF foods suitable for a LBP that we created last year. Is this still accurate?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Are you a professional nutritionist? What qualifies you to recommend grain-free foods for large and giant breed puppies? Large breeds should not be fed foods with this much protein or fat. There is no upside to using these foods, except for chatting at the dog park and bragging.

If you have a large or giant breed puppy feed a 25/15 food with very low ash and keep it simple, Chicken/fish and a mix of whole grains. No berries, herbs or novel proteins are needed. 

Use a proven food made by people that know dogs, not by people that know marketing.


----------



## bridget246 (Oct 26, 2011)

westminsterthree said:


> Are you a professional nutritionist? What qualifies you to recommend grain-free foods for large and giant breed puppies? Large breeds should not be fed foods with this much protein or fat. There is no upside to using these foods, except for chatting at the dog park and bragging.
> 
> If you have a large or giant breed puppy feed a 25/15 foods with very low ash and keep it simple, Chicken and a mix of whole grains.


Personally, I'd leave out the grains. And I believe he/she was asking a question.


----------



## westminsterthree (Jan 10, 2012)

bridget246 said:


> Personally, I'd leave out the grains. And I believe he/she was asking a question.


Whole grains are superior to potatoes, beans or tapioca. A mix of whole NON-GMO grains are far more nutritious and better for the puppy than starchy fast digesting potatoes. Don't start with grains and allergies, that is a myth that just wont go away. Study after study after study shows grains as essentially an insignificant source of reaction, with the exception of isolated wheat protein, not whole grain wheat.


----------



## bridget246 (Oct 26, 2011)

westminsterthree said:


> Whole grains are superior to potatoes, beans or tapioca. A mix of whole NON-GMO grains are far more nutritious and better for the puppy than starchy fast digesting potatoes. Don't start with grains and allergies, that is a myth that just wont go away. Study after study after study shows grains as essentially an insignificant source of reaction, with the exception of isolated wheat protein, not whole grain wheat.


Would you be willing to provide us with some professional links to back this up? It sounds like good information.


----------



## meggels (May 30, 2010)

yaaaaay he's back


----------



## westminsterthree (Jan 10, 2012)

bridget246 said:


> Would you be willing to provide us with some professional links to back this up? It sounds like good information.


Sure start with Dr. Susan Wynn, one of the most respected holistic nutritionists in the US:

"Fallacy 4: Grains cause allergies.
Fact: If dogs have the genetic predisposition to develop food allergies, they can become allergic to certain foods. A recent review of 7 studies indicates that dogs are most commonly allergic to the following foods (in descending order): beef, dairy, wheat, egg, chicken, lamb/mutton, soy, pork, rabbit and fish. In cats, the most common allergens are beef, dairy, fish, lamb, poultry and barley/wheat (in equal numbers), egg and rabbit in equal numbers. I will admit that I’ve seen higher numbers of corn allergy than would be suggested by these numbers, as well, but please note that grains do not constitute the majority of allergy offenders."

Then read this. It is a compilation study that found that all the grains combined cause about 10% of allergies.

http://www.raynenutrition.com/uploads/Food allergy in dogs & cats Review.pdf

The bottom line is that animal proteins are responsible for allergies.

However, did you know that 90% of atopic conditions have nothing to do with food? So, only 10% are food related.


----------



## bridget246 (Oct 26, 2011)

meggels said:


> yaaaaay he's back


Wait... he was here when I joined! That is him isn't it?! Why does he stalk this forum? It's kind of creepy.


----------



## meggels (May 30, 2010)

He (or she, but I feel like it's a he), always comes back under new names, and always has the same message, even though he/she is rude and doesn't get anyone to LISTEN to that message because of the way he/she delivers it.....

I think last time he was truthdog?


----------



## westminsterthree (Jan 10, 2012)

bridget246 said:


> Would you be willing to provide us with some professional links to back this up? It sounds like good information.


http://www.raynenutrition.com/uploads/Food allergy in dogs & cats Review.pdf

All grains combined were responsible for just 10% of allergies, the rest animal proteins.

And from Dr. Susan Wynn, one of the most respected holistic nutritionists in the US:

Fallacy 4: Grains cause allergies.
Fact: If dogs have the genetic predisposition to develop food allergies, they can become allergic to certain foods. A recent review of 7 studies indicates that dogs are most commonly allergic to the following foods (in descending order): beef, dairy, wheat, egg, chicken, lamb/mutton, soy, pork, rabbit and fish. In cats, the most common allergens are beef, dairy, fish, lamb, poultry and barley/wheat (in equal numbers), egg and rabbit in equal numbers. I will admit that I’ve seen higher numbers of corn allergy than would be suggested by these numbers, as well, but please note that grains do not constitute the majority of allergy offenders." 

So when someone tells you grains are responsible for allergies, they are flat out lying.

Also, just 10% of atopic conditions are related to food.


----------



## bridget246 (Oct 26, 2011)

meggels said:


> He (or she, but I feel like it's a he), always comes back under new names, and always has the same message, even though he/she is rude and doesn't get anyone to LISTEN to that message because of the way he/she delivers it.....
> 
> I think last time he was truthdog?


I forget the name. He/she was doing some pretty heavy trolling. I don't think he actually mentioned to convert anyone then either.


----------



## MollyWoppy (Mar 19, 2010)

westminsterthree said:


> If you have a large or giant breed puppy feed a 25/15 food with very low ash and keep it simple, Chicken/fish and a mix of whole grains. No berries, herbs or novel proteins are needed.
> 
> Use a proven food made by people that know dogs, not by people that know marketing.




A question - (partly in your own words): "Are you a professional nutritionist? What qualifies you to recommend" the ingredients you mentioned above?

I mean, I just might listen to you if you would tell us who you are and what your crudentials are as far as dog food is concerned. And, as far as I know, you are just one of us, except with a vastly different point of view.


----------



## Unosmom (May 3, 2009)

Truthdog is back... and again with zero credentials to back up his claims. Where are these studies you so profoundly speak of? 

High protein not being suitable for puppies is a myth thats been debunked long time ago, you need to keep and eye on calcium/phosphorus levels, not protein.


----------



## westminsterthree (Jan 10, 2012)

MollyWoppy said:


> A question - (partly in your own words): "Are you a professional nutritionist? What qualifies you to recommend" the ingredients you mentioned above?
> 
> I mean, I just might listen to you if you would tell us who you are and what your crudentials are as far as dog food is concerned. As, as far as I know you are just one of us, except with a vastly different point of view.


I have bred and trained dogs for a long time. Your point of view is not a professional point of view. Virtually all the information that circulates on these forums is incorrect, whether it is protein requirements, allergies or ingredients. When it comes to dry dog foods, nothing better is available than a high quality chicken & whole grain food. For most dogs a low ash 25/15 food is more than enough. I would not feed more than 30-32% protein in a dry dog food unless the dog was a highly stressed, competitive animal. The one that just baffles me is "rotational feeding". There is no basis in science for this, rather it comes from a misunderstanding of food allergies. Dogs that have allergies are dogs with troubled immune systems that overreact 90% of the time to animal proteins. There is no sense in exposing a non-reactive dog to multiple proteins because if it is a dog with a bad immune system you will be at a big disadvantage trying to find something to feed the dog. You will have no bullets left.


----------



## westminsterthree (Jan 10, 2012)

Unosmom said:


> Truthdog is back... and again with zero credentials to back up his claims. Where are these studies you so profoundly speak of?
> 
> High protein not being suitable for puppies is a myth thats been debunked long time ago, you need to keep and eye on calcium/phosphorus levels, not protein.


Wrong:


"While not directly responsible for skeletal disease in the growing dog, protein provided in excess of metabolic requirements is deaminated by the liver and used for energy, increases plasma levels of insulin-like growth factors, and contributes to an increased rate of growth.(23) If requirements for essential amino acids are met, there are no known benefits to feeding excess protein to healthy, young, growing dogs."

Michigan State

I am aware of calcium and phosphorous that is why a low ash food is critical for large and giant breeds.


----------



## meggels (May 30, 2010)

Okay, so you've bred and trained dogs. Several people here do this as well. You're not a nutritionist either. Fail.


----------



## westminsterthree (Jan 10, 2012)

Allergies:

From Dr. Susan Wynn, a very respected holistic nutritionist:

"Fallacy 4: Grains cause allergies.
Fact: If dogs have the genetic predisposition to develop food allergies, they can become allergic to certain foods. A recent review of 7 studies indicates that dogs are most commonly allergic to the following foods (in descending order): beef, dairy, wheat, egg, chicken, lamb/mutton, soy, pork, rabbit and fish. In cats, the most common allergens are beef, dairy, fish, lamb, poultry and barley/wheat (in equal numbers), egg and rabbit in equal numbers. I will admit that I’ve seen higher numbers of corn allergy than would be suggested by these numbers, as well, but please note that grains do not constitute the majority of allergy offenders."

Please note "genetic predisposition" this simply means it is not the food's fault, and another reason that "rotational feeding" is a very bad idea.

Recent Compilation Study:

http://www.raynenutrition.com/uploads/Food allergy in dogs & cats Review.pdf

This study found that all grains combined were only 10% of allergies, the rest common animal proteins and wheat gluten.

As rare as they are, 90% of allergies are animal proteins and wheat gluten, not rice, oats, corn or barley.

The science is clear but the marketing is not.


----------



## Unosmom (May 3, 2009)

> Like excess energy, protein has been thought to be associated with skeletal disease. A study by Nap and coworkers reported on the role of protein in disturbances of skeletal development(21,22): Three groups of Great Dane puppies were fed three levels of protein (31.6%, 23.1%, and 14.6% on a dry matter basis) in an isoenergetic dry dog food from 7 weeks through 18 weeks of age. No demonstrable effects were noted on calcium metabolism or skeletal development. These levels of dietary protein are unlikely to cause a disturbing role in canine endochondral ossification.


Protein is not the problem, overfeeding is. 


> “Research at the Purina Pet Care Center and at other facilities has shown that puppies fed inadequate protein do not grow as well and are more susceptible to health problems than those fed nutritionally complete diets. At the Pet Care Center, English setter puppies that were fed a low-protein diet showed stunted growth compared to puppies fed higher levels of protein. However, when the protein level was increased in the puppies at the Pet Care Center, the deficiency was corrected.”
> “Concern about protein causing developmental bone problems in large-breed puppies has led some breeders to reduce the amount of protein they fed. However, in research published in 1993 based on studies of Great Dane puppies at Utrecht University in the Netherlands, it was shown that dietary protein does not contribute to these problems.”
> “Herman A. Hazewinkel, D.V.M., Ph.D., professor of veterinary medicine at Utrecht University, led the research that found no detrimental effects from protein levels up to 32 percent of the diet. However, puppies fed a diet of only 15 percent protein showed evidence of inadequate protein intake.”
> “Too low protein decreases the growth rate of puppies and also their immunological response,” Hazewinkel says. “This is true for large- and small-breed puppies. An adequate protein level should be higher than 15 percent.”
> ...





> “In addition to excessive calcium intake, researchers have shown that over nutrition can also initiate these disturbances in skeletal maturation and growth. An excess protein intake, without an excess of other nutrients revealed NOT to influence skeletal maturation and growth in growing Great Danes (Ref. 2).”
> This would include supplementation of calcium to processed diets, or could occur when feeding raw diets to puppies that are more than 50% raw meaty bones. Calcium amounts are adequate in commercial pet foods, and a diet of no more than 40% to 50% raw meaty bones is an appropriate amount for a growing puppy. This article also concludes that certain breeds may require less calcium than others for proper growth:


Puppy Protein | B-Naturals.Com Newsletter


----------



## meggels (May 30, 2010)

I think the best proof for me is that my hound a) looks better on higher meat grain free kibbles and b) poops so much less on such kibbles.


----------



## Unosmom (May 3, 2009)

Also, if youre so adamant about proving that dogs needs grains in their diets, tell me, whats the minimum carb requirement for dogs?

Also a little tid bit, its virtually impossible to overdose on protein, especially quality animal protein since its either stores as fat to be used for energy later or excreted thought urine though a process called deamination.


Heres another article on large puppy nutrition


> Unlike other species, protein excess has not been demonstrated to negatively affect calcium metabolism or skeletal development in dogs. Protein deficiency, however, has more impact on the developing skeleton. The minimum adequate level of dietary protein depends on digestibility, amino acids, and their availability from protein sources. A growth food should contain > 22% protein (dry matter basis) of high biologic value. The dietary protein requirements of normal dogs decrease with age.


http://www.joint-health-for-dogs.com/nutrition-dogs.html


----------



## Caty M (Aug 13, 2010)

Raw (by dry weight) is higher in protein than any kibble, and it's certainly healthy. Raw is what, 60%ish, depending on the animal/cut being used? And there is no carbs.. yet all of our dogs seem to be doing just fine.. so.. YES, a high protein grain free is fine. Just watch the calcium/phosphorus.


----------



## Bxrdogs4me (Jul 21, 2009)

I have nothing of substance to add to this thread, but I LOVE your avatar. Soooooooooo cute! (Ooops, meant to quote meggles response)


----------



## DogLuver (Oct 19, 2011)

It's so upsetting when people come to a forum to start up mumbo jumbo but offer nothing to help people, yet bash other people who actually have something helpful to offer...its ok he/she will get banned and come back again under yet another name .... boooo!!!


----------



## SpooOwner (Oct 1, 2010)

Yeah, let's just assume this guy is a [email protected] and move on.

I'm surprised no one has jumped in with a substantive update. Perhaps we have fewer kibble feeders now?


----------



## meggels (May 30, 2010)

Bxrdogs4me said:


> I have nothing of substance to add to this thread, but I LOVE your avatar. Soooooooooo cute! (Ooops, meant to quote meggles response)



Aw shucks, thanks  I grew up with boxers, and then down sized to a frenchie lol


----------



## westminsterthree (Jan 10, 2012)

DogLuver said:


> It's so upsetting when people come to a forum to start up mumbo jumbo but offer nothing to help people, yet bash other people who actually have something helpful to offer...its ok he/she will get banned and come back again under yet another name .... boooo!!!


The mumbo jumbo is science not the crap you spew. You are a complete sucker.


----------



## westminsterthree (Jan 10, 2012)

Unosmom said:


> Also, if youre so adamant about proving that dogs needs grains in their diets, tell me, whats the minimum carb requirement for dogs?
> 
> Also a little tid bit, its virtually impossible to overdose on protein, especially quality animal protein since its either stores as fat to be used for energy later or excreted thought urine though a process called deamination.
> 
> ...


Listen you have one dog. There is no carb requirement, like there is stated no requirement for fiber, vitamin C, omega 3's and a few other items. 

I believe with co-owned dogs I have had 30 litters. There is no reason to feed any puppy the amount of protein in many grain-free foods and no professional does.

Yes but excess protein also induces a hormonal growth response. Moreover, if it is excreted why in the world would you waste the money feeding it. Protein is also about 30% entropic. An ALS food with 25% - 30% protein is more than enough for any puppy. 25% is perfect for a large or giant breed puppy.


----------



## meggels (May 30, 2010)

I would like to see pictures of your healthy dogs.


----------



## Caty M (Aug 13, 2010)

Go awayyyyyy.

Said it a million times. The best diet is a natural one. The best kibble most closely replicates that. High protein, high fat, low to no carbs.


----------



## Jordan S. (Feb 2, 2010)

SpooOwner said:


> Yeah, let's just assume this guy is a [email protected] and move on.
> 
> I'm surprised no one has jumped in with a substantive update. Perhaps we have fewer kibble feeders now?



Doesn't TOTW have a line of puppy foods out now?


----------



## twotonelover (Jan 10, 2011)

westminsterthree said:


> The mumbo jumbo is science not the crap you spew. You are a complete sucker.


If it is science, please provide links to journal articles/research papers stating so. You still have not provided any science to back up what you are saying, which is why people are calling it mumbo jumbo. And don't just say "I've raised 30 litters". Many long time breeders swear by crappy foods like Eukanuba and Dog Chow and say their dogs look great. It doesn't mean what their feeding is good or right....


----------



## stajbs (Jun 5, 2010)

He's baaaaccccckkk!!! Welcome, I see the originality is starting again. Do you absolutely love us or what? How many IP addresses do you have, and do you have a serious case of boredom? One has to wonder why you seem to like to keep coming back and getting banned. There is something seriously very odd about that. Adios!!!!


----------



## DogLuver (Oct 19, 2011)

westminsterthree said:


> The mumbo jumbo is science not the crap you spew. You are a complete sucker.


Dont call me a sucker, you know nothing about me.



westminsterthree said:


> There is no reason to feed any puppy the amount of protein in many grain-free foods and no professional does.
> Moreover, if it is excreted why in the world would you waste the money feeding it. .


I know many professionals that do, saying "no professional does" makes you sound very naive. Grains do nothing for a dogs body, so it's wasting your money to buy foods full of grains and feed it to a dog and pick it up off the grass, dogs strive on meat, not grain. CARNIVORE...look it up.



Caty M said:


> Go awayyyyyy.


AGREED!



Jordan S. said:


> Doesn't TOTW have a line of puppy foods out now?


Yes they do, I believe the calcium/phosphorus ratio is more appropriate for puppies (especially LBP) than their all stages was, but other than that, I don't think the puppy formulas are much different than the all life stages one.


----------



## emilysbond (Jan 9, 2012)

I just started my dogs on Pulsar (grain-free) as I feel like it offers a pretty great food, given it's affordability esp. in this economy. Instead of potatoes and tapioca, it includes peas and lentils, which I eat on a regular basis. I did a little bit of research and it appears to be a pretty good formula since these carbs are high in protein and low on the glycemic index scale (great for my daushund).


----------



## PDXdogmom (Jun 30, 2010)

westminsterthree said:


> *Whole grains are superior to potatoes, beans or tapioca. A mix of whole NON-GMO grains are far more nutritious and better for the puppy than starchy fast digesting potatoes*. Don't start with grains and allergies, that is a myth that just wont go away. Study after study after study shows grains as essentially an insignificant source of reaction, with the exception of isolated wheat protein, not whole grain wheat.


Putting aside who this poster is or what his/her posting style is like, there is some merit to this statement. There is nothing superior about potatoes or tapioca as the #1 carb in a kibble. In fact, some people would steer away from them due to their high glycemic index - just as you might want to avoid white rice in a kibble. Putting aside meat % and sources in a formula, I prefer to see peas, quinoa, whole brown rice, etc. To me, it's the choice of carb (be it grain or not grain) that is more important.


----------



## DogLuver (Oct 19, 2011)

PDXdogmom said:


> Putting aside who this poster is or what his/her posting style is like, there is some merit to this statement. There is nothing superior about potatoes or tapioca as the #1 carb in a kibble. In fact, some people would steer away from them due to their high glycemic index - just as you might want to avoid white rice in a kibble. Putting aside meat % and sources in a formula, I prefer to see peas, quinoa, whole brown rice, etc. To me, it's the choice of carb (be it grain or not grain) that is more important.


Thank you, this was very helpful!  I agree with what you're saying, and I should note that I choose Orijen as a grain free food because it has a high meat content, which many grain inclusive formula's seem to lack....I LOVE quinoa (for myself) a new found favorite food of mine...that stuff is booming...but I've never seen it in a dog food, so thanks for the info


----------



## twotonelover (Jan 10, 2011)

PDXdogmom said:


> Putting aside who this poster is or what his/her posting style is like, there is some merit to this statement. There is nothing superior about potatoes or tapioca as the #1 carb in a kibble. In fact, some people would steer away from them due to their high glycemic index - just as you might want to avoid white rice in a kibble. Putting aside meat % and sources in a formula, I prefer to see peas, quinoa, whole brown rice, etc. To me, it's the choice of carb (be it grain or not grain) that is more important.


I definitely agree. When my dog was still on kibble, I only got grain free formulas with peas, chick peas, lentils etc. and avoided foods with potatoes and tapioca.


----------



## PDXdogmom (Jun 30, 2010)

DogLuver said:


> Thank you, this was very helpful!  I agree with what you're saying, and I should note that I choose Orijen as a grain free food because it has a high meat content, which many grain inclusive formula's seem to lack....I LOVE quinoa (for myself) a new found favorite food of mine...that stuff is booming...but I've never seen it in a dog food, so thanks for the info


Quinoa is the 2nd ingredient in The Honest Kitchen Thrive formula which is a dehydrated food. I've used it in rotation and often add some egg or fresh meat. Natural Gluten Free Dog Food | Dehydrated Raw Dog Food | Thrive | The Honest Kitchen

I'm using quinoa all the time in my own kitchen too - everything from chickpea stew served over quinoa, salads, to quinoa pancakes and quinoa flake cookies. It's the most perfect grain IMO.


----------



## westminsterthree (Jan 10, 2012)

DogLuver said:


> Thank you, this was very helpful!  I agree with what you're saying, and I should note that I choose Orijen as a grain free food because it has a high meat content, which many grain inclusive formula's seem to lack....I LOVE quinoa (for myself) a new found favorite food of mine...that stuff is booming...but I've never seen it in a dog food, so thanks for the info


You are totally wrong. I can give you several grain inclusive foods with high protein and the same or even less carbohydrate than Orijen. They also are better diets and much better values.

Orijen markets well and that is about it.


----------



## Jordan S. (Feb 2, 2010)

PDXdogmom said:


> Putting aside who this poster is or what his/her posting style is like, there is some merit to this statement. There is nothing superior about potatoes or tapioca as the #1 carb in a kibble. In fact, some people would steer away from them due to their high glycemic index - just as you might want to avoid white rice in a kibble. Putting aside meat % and sources in a formula, I prefer to see peas, quinoa, whole brown rice, etc. To me, it's the choice of carb (be it grain or not grain) that is more important.



Yes, really good point, I don't think tubers are any better than grain, it's just that most grain-inclusive foods also happen to have a lower protein and meat content. 

@westininsterthree, would you mind posting the links to these foods?, I personally don't know of any that are 28% +


----------



## Caty M (Aug 13, 2010)

I'd love to hear of a grain inclusive food that gets the protein primarily from meat and is the same as Orijen in terms of protein content (38%+).


----------



## westminsterthree (Jan 10, 2012)

Jordan S. said:


> Yes, really good point, I don't think tubers are any better than grain, it's just that most grain-inclusive foods also happen to have a lower protein and meat content.
> 
> @westininsterthree, would you mind posting the links to these foods?, I personally don't know of any that are 28% +


1) Annamaet Ultra, 32/20...proven over 25 years and still the best. Human grade everything.
2) Abady M&S, awesome food, 32/28
3) Precise Endurance, 30/20, awesome food
4) Dr. Tim's, Pursuit 30/20, Momentum 35/25, made at the same place as Annamaet, newer food but Tim Hunt is well known.
5) Red Paw Perform 32, made at the Fromm plant, great food
6) Enhance Professional Athlete, 30/22, great stuff
7) Nutrisource Performance, 30/20, Super Perfomance 32/21, good stuff
8) Native Level 3, 30/20, Level 4 35/25, great food
9) Healthwise Active, 30/20
10) Pro Pac High Performance, 30/20, Human Grade, same maker as Earthborn.
11) Eukanuba Premium Performance, 30/20. 

Let me ask, though. These foods are designed for dogs under enormous physical stress. Why do you believe your dog needs a food with so much protein?

All these foods have 25% or less calories from carbohydrates. A few close to 15%.


----------



## westminsterthree (Jan 10, 2012)

Caty M said:


> I'd love to hear of a grain inclusive food that gets the protein primarily from meat and is the same as Orijen in terms of protein content (38%+).


You read too much fake science on the internet. Your dog does not need that much protein and in fact pees it out. And all the foods I listed above get 90% or more of the protein from the meat meals. Some 95%.


----------



## meggels (May 30, 2010)

What would be a good dog food for a dog that is normal activity level. No real sensitivies? I'd be willing to try it on Abbie if I can find it locally for sh*ts and giggles  She does pretty well on anything she's given, and I'm not anti grains, as long as they are whole grains, no corn please. 

The only time I've noticed something bad is when she was on NB's Ultra formula, but the first ingredient is brown rice. It wasn't much meat.


----------



## westminsterthree (Jan 10, 2012)

meggels said:


> What would be a good dog food for a dog that is normal activity level. No real sensitivies? I'd be willing to try it on Abbie if I can find it locally for sh*ts and giggles  She does pretty well on anything she's given, and I'm not anti grains, as long as they are whole grains, no corn please.
> 
> The only time I've noticed something bad is when she was on NB's Ultra formula, but the first ingredient is brown rice. It wasn't much meat.


Annamaet Encore 
Verus Life Advantage
Precise Chicken & Rice
Best Breed, All Breed Diet

These are all low ash, with the right protein and fat for a breed that is predisposed to weight gain.

These are perfect for a Frenchie.


----------



## meggels (May 30, 2010)

My frenchie eats raw due to allergies, but my hound gets kibble, that's who they would be for lol.


----------



## Herzo (Feb 5, 2011)

Hey come on guys I have a soft spot. I think he/she is how I found this sight. How come the westminsterthree ? Do you show your dogs?


----------



## meggels (May 30, 2010)

Westminsterthree- I think you do have some really good insight/info to contribute here, so I hope you can stick around and take part in the forum without getting nasty again  



And, I picked up this food for my girl Abbie today, it's made by Hi-Tek and was VERY budget friendly. I am going to give it a try and see how she does after being on EB's Great Plains Feast, which made her look amazing as always after getting a dull and flakey coat on Natural Balance...

Made in Dublin, GA by Hi-Tek Rations Inc.

"Chicken Meal & Rice Formula for Active Dogs"

Chicken meal, brown rice, white rice, chicken fat (preserved with mixed tocerphols and citric acid), whole milo, pork meat meal, flaxseed, oatmeal, salt, potassium chloride, natural flavors, fish oil, vitamin E supplement....(and then continues on with vitamins and minerals.) 

Protein: 26%
Fat: 16%
Fiber: 3%
Moisture: 10%




"Hi-Tek Rations is a 22 year old, family-owned and operated company founded by nutritional legend Leonard Powell. Mr. Powell has spent a lifetime in the field of animal nutrition and has harnessed that lifetime of learning into the creation of outstanding rations for dogs and cats, diets that provide the good health of superior nutrition. The nutritional science to which Mr. Powell has devoted so many years is evident in coat, condition and overall bloom of outstanding nutritional health.

Hi-Tek Rations, located in Dublin, Georgia, operates in an American Institute of Baking (AIB) audited manufacturing facility that is one of the most technologically advanced pet food facilities of its kind in the nation. Here, the greatest concern is taken for cleanliness and product safety and extreme measures are normal operating procedure in preventing cross contamination of ingredients and avoiding the introduction of mycotoxin and bacteria."


----------



## westminsterthree (Jan 10, 2012)

meggels said:


> Westminsterthree- I think you do have some really good insight/info to contribute here, so I hope you can stick around and take part in the forum without getting nasty again
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Leonard Powell is highly thought of and I have heard good things about those foods. Simple chicken and quality grain foods. By the way White Milo is Sorghum, not that it matters. It looks a food that most dogs would do well on.


----------



## CorgiPaws (Mar 31, 2009)

westminsterthree said:


> I have bred and trained dogs for a long time. Your point of view is not a professional point of view. Virtually all the information that circulates on these forums is incorrect, whether it is protein requirements, allergies or ingredients. When it comes to dry dog foods, nothing better is available than a high quality chicken & whole grain food. For most dogs a low ash 25/15 food is more than enough. I would not feed more than 30-32% protein in a dry dog food unless the dog was a highly stressed, competitive animal. The one that just baffles me is "rotational feeding". There is no basis in science for this, rather it comes from a misunderstanding of food allergies. Dogs that have allergies are dogs with troubled immune systems that overreact 90% of the time to animal proteins. There is no sense in exposing a non-reactive dog to multiple proteins because if it is a dog with a bad immune system you will be at a big disadvantage trying to find something to feed the dog. You will have no bullets left.


Let's make this really simple for you.

Dog = carnivore
Carnivore = meat, bone & organ eater
If substituting a dogs natural diet with a processed one, you ought to stick as close to nature as possible.
More meat, less plants, little to no carbs. 

You put Eukanuba over Orijen, which says a lot about what you (dont) know. I've seen a whle lot more marketing on the big box crap you are saying is good. Things like Orijen, totw, California natural.... They sell themselves. 

I come in contact with hundreds of dogs every month fed all different kinds of foods... There is a real clear difference between dogs fed junk food, and dogs fed real, quality diets like those mentioned above. Teeth, skin, odor, coats. Body condition..... It makes a huge difference.

Ol Roy is the top selling food because it's the cheapest and most people are totally ignorant. So many people don't even know what terrible condition their dogs are in because they just don't know any better. 

And I must disagree with you on the sensitive system foods, too. I've seen by far more success with California Natural than any other brand or line designed for sensitive tummies, by a long shot! Including RX formulas. 

I hope you stick around. I had surgery yesterday and am out of work for 8 weeks. Could use the entertainment.


----------



## westminsterthree (Jan 10, 2012)

CorgiPaws said:


> Let's make this really simple for you.
> 
> Dog = carnivore
> Carnivore = meat, bone & organ eater
> ...


I am sorry you feel the way you do. I don't believe that you are objective and I doubt you have the experience or background that I have.

I have seen many dogs on Eukanuba decimate dogs on "better foods" in both show and competition. When you read the label of Orijen it makes you feel good, and it should, the company does back-flips trying to make you believe it has the answers. In reality, the Orijen formulas are not even developed in-house.

Do you know anything about Dingos? Well there are Dingos in Australia that eat mostly flesh and there are exactly the same Dingos on islands off Australia that eat rice & bananas.

Dogs that were domesticated were in fact wolves but they were members of the pack that were more social and docile. They more than likely visited human settlements for food, and guess what they ate??? They ate what ever scraps were around or given to them, including gruels of ancient grains. This is fact.

So dogs should eat a diet high in meat, but don't kid yourself about what dogs will eat, because they will eat anything that is front of their noses.

My whole problem in what you believe is that wolves don't eat 200 -300 grams of protein every day. That is what I have a problem with. The smartest scientists figured out long ago that 32% protein was enough to keep medium distance sled dogs in top condition, so why do you insist on feeding house dogs 38% or more. There is no evidence whatsoever that expensive high protein foods are any better, but in fact many dogs are suffering from them.

You should listen more and not get so sensitive.


----------



## meggels (May 30, 2010)

westminsterthree said:


> Leonard Powell is highly thought of and I have heard good things about those foods. Simple chicken and quality grain foods. By the way White Milo is Sorghum, not that it matters. It looks a food that most dogs would do well on.



Is sorghum particularly bad?? I was googling quick on my phone because I was unsure of what it was, and I got that it's the same thing as millet?


----------



## westminsterthree (Jan 10, 2012)

meggels said:


> Is sorghum particularly bad?? I was googling quick on my phone because I was unsure of what it was, and I got that it's the same thing as millet?


Sorghum is a good ingredient. It is totally gluten free and considered a health grain nowadays. It is essentially grown organically because it grows in the desert and pests don't bother it. It is much less glycemic than millet.


----------



## meggels (May 30, 2010)

But raw diets are actually lower in protein than 38% aren't they? Because of water content? I was under the impression that there was a big difference in protein between a kibble like Orijen vs a raw diet.


----------



## westminsterthree (Jan 10, 2012)

meggels said:


> But raw diets are actually lower in protein than 38% aren't they? Because of water content? I was under the impression that there was a big difference in protein between a kibble like Orijen vs a raw diet.


Raw food has about 70 grams of protein per lb. It would be like feeding a 25% protein dry food. Really depends though but its nothing like a high protein GF.


----------



## Jordan S. (Feb 2, 2010)

Both grain-free kibble and raw are high in protein on a dry matter basis, raw just has the moisture to balance it out.


----------



## CorgiPaws (Mar 31, 2009)

westminsterthree said:


> I am sorry you feel the way you do. I don't believe that you are objective and I doubt you have the experience or background that I have.
> 
> I have seen many dogs on Eukanuba decimate dogs on "better foods" in both show and competition. When you read the label of Orijen it makes you feel good, and it should, the company does back-flips trying to make you believe it has the answers. In reality, the Orijen formulas are not even developed in-house.
> 
> ...


Trust me, the topic of kibble is nothing for me to get sensitive about. I don't feed it and never will. Because it does not apply to me nor my dogs, it isn't one I feel particularly emotionally invested in.

Aside from "training and breeding dogs for a long time" please, do tell your qualifications. I am not about to fudge mine, I'm just a dog owner, really. I have worked in the pet care industry hands on with hundreds of dogs for only 8 years, and runny own pet care facility. I personally have 7 dogs and will just be having my first litter in the late Spring. I am not an expert, but I can apply logic and common sense quite well.
I don't particularly jump on the bandwagon of 'grain free or die!' as I think there are plenty of grain free formulas that fall short and a few grain inclusive ones that are superior. I have helped countless people through my line of work sort out their dogs digestive issues, and rarely do I ever recommend a super rich grain free foods to these dogs. In fact, of the foods I carry in house all the time, which are : EVO red, Canidae ALS, Canidae ALS grain free, the whole Taste of the Wild lineup, Wellness, and California Natural grain inclusive lineup, Cal Nat is what I recommend the most to folks whose dogs can't seem to have healthy stools or maintain healthy body weight on anything else. I've seen so many dogs on all kinds of foods, including RX formulas make a total turn around on Cal Nat, particularly the herring formula. I am and always will be a firm believer in raw, but setting that aside, when it comes to kibble I can't deny the results I've seen with this food. And yes, it's grain inclusive!
But Iams, Eukanuba, Science Diet, anything Purina, and Ol Roy I simply have not seen the results reflect Ted in those dogs as I've seen in dogs fed high quality foods. What I've seen has made me a believer that other foods are superior. I fed Pedigree for a very long time until I was 16, and volunteering with rescues and shelters. One of the coordinators had her cocker spaniels at an event, and they were so soft and silky. They just felt healthy! And they were shiney. I commented on them and she said its because they ate good food. It happened to be Wellness Core. That was when I started looking into pet foods. I put my beagle and my GSD mix onWellness and rotated every bag. I saw vast improvements in them. I didn't want to, because the cost was so high, but I did, and couldn't justify putting them back on corn based junk.
Since getting a Corgi in 2009 that had a very tough time with carbohydrates, I have spent hours every day reading about and talking about pet foods and canine nutrition. Even so, I don't believe these foods are better than big box ones because of what some people on the Internet have said, but rather the experiences I've had with my own dogs, and hundreds of other peoples dogs. 
Rotation diets may or may not have science behind them, I don't know and I don't care. What I do know is variety is essential in any diet, and feeding the same thing day I and day out for years upon years doesn't seem ideal for any species, period.

Things I can agree with you on: grain free is not always better, and not all dogs can tolerate foods like EVO and Orijen. 
I can't agree that dogs on these corn based foods are overall healthier, or that dogs don't need a meat based diet.

But again, the topic of kibble is not applicable to my dogs, some do feel fairly objective on the topic.


----------



## meggels (May 30, 2010)

To be fair, this is in the kibble/canned section, and I'm guilty, but we should probably try to keep it from turning into raw vs. kibble debate


----------



## DogLuver (Oct 19, 2011)

westminsterthree said:


> I am sorry you feel the way you do. I don't believe that you are objective and I doubt you have the experience or background that I have.
> 
> I have seen many dogs on Eukanuba decimate dogs on "better foods" in both show and competition. When you read the label of Orijen it makes you feel good, and it should, the company does back-flips trying to make you believe it has the answers. In reality, the Orijen formulas are not even developed in-house.
> 
> ...


Ay ay ay.....you cannot say "I doubt you have the experience I do"...who on earth do you think you are? You are most definitely not the only person on this forum with experience. And we should listen more and not get so sensitive...so what...listen to what you're saying, and throw out everything else we've learned/researched on canine nutrition?

Lets get this straight, like I've said before, most of the people on this forum are not fooled by advertising or pretty bags, so stop making it sound like that is the only reason we choose the foods we do. I find it funny that you talk of Orijen the way you do, and this is why. I have NEVER EVER EVER seen a commercial or any type of advertising for Orijen actually, so I haven't been suckered by a persuasive company the way you make it sound, and I'm sure most people that feed Orijen have better reasons than that. I went searching for the best food I could find, the closest to a RAW diet as possible, and I decided on Orijen after considering all kinds of other brands, and prices. I would not pay for the price of Orijen if I didn't believe it was superior to other foods, I'm not saying it's better than ALL kibbles of coarse, but it has the requirements I was looking for MY DOGS, and it has worked wonders for them for a long time! I haven't seen the "back-flips" you speak of Orijen doing...I've seen this with companies such as Purina, Iams, Blue Buffalo, Eukanuba and such, and I believe people get suckered into feeding those foods from the "back-flips" those companies are doing to get peoples attention....it's almost the complete opposite with Orijen (where I live anyway).

I saw the list of foods you recommended instead of Orijen, and after looking at them, I'm not impressed, and definitely wouldn't switch from Orijen to any of the foods you listed.

I'm curious as to what makes you such an expert to tell everyone that they're wrong, and you're right??? You state a lot of "facts" with no reference. There's a difference between people being sensitive, and you acting like you're better than everyone else! I'm willing to listen if I could find any reason to believe what you're saying.


----------



## JustaLilBitaLuck (Jan 15, 2012)

To respond to the original post...here are all the decent large breed puppy foods I can think of. I find that there are more non-grain-free puppy foods than grain-free, so I marked the grain-free ones with an asterik. My top choices are in bold.

*Solid Gold Wolf Cub (bison/whitefish)*
Blue Buffalo LBP (chicken)
*Nature's Variety Prairie LBP (chicken)*
NutriSource LBP (chicken)
Precise LBP (chicken)
Precise Holistic LBP (chicken/lamb)
**Orijen LBP (chicken/salmon/turkey/herring)*
Chicken Soup LBP (chicken/turkey)
Wellness LBP (chicken/whitefish)
*Fromm Gold LBP (duck/chicken)
Canine Caviar LBP (lamb)*
Diamond Naturals LBP (lamb)
Eagle Pack LBP (lamb)
Premium Edge LBP (lamb)
Holistic Select LBP (lamb/chicken)
**Now! LBP (turkey)*
Innova LBP (turkey/chicken)


----------



## PDXdogmom (Jun 30, 2010)

JustaLilBitaLuck: Thanks for taking the time to post those suggestions. It's always nice to see some info like that compiled into one list.

I fed Orijen LBP to one of my dogs until she was 7 months and she did fine with it. If I had another medium-large breed puppy now, I'd take a serious look at the Fromm Gold LBP. I think it hits a sweet spot with its guaranteed analysis, I like the Fromm company overall and I've heard a lot of people having a good experience with the Fromm Gold LBP.

The one formula I wouldn't personally try is the Canine Caviar LBP. I'm surprised they used lamb; because like many lamb formulas it boosted the calcium to 2.3% and the ash to 10.2%. I wouldn't have a comfort level with either of those two.


----------



## dr tim (Mar 27, 2011)

PDX;

Can you tell me what the difference is between the LBP and their regular puppy food in the analysis, please? I am very curious.


----------



## PDXdogmom (Jun 30, 2010)

dr tim said:


> PDX;
> 
> Can you tell me what the difference is between the LBP and their regular puppy food in the analysis, please? I am very curious.


I'm assuming you're asking about the Canine Caviar Large Breed Puppy Lamb versus the Canine Caviar Puppy Chicken:

CC Chicken and Pearl Millet Puppy: 31% protein, 19% fat, 1.3% calcium, 1.1% phosphorus, 530 kcal/cup

CC Lamb and Pearl Millet Large Breed Puppy: 26% protein, 16% fat, 2.3% calcium, 2% phosphorus, 551 kcal/cup.

All of this info is on the Canine Caviar website.


----------



## dr tim (Mar 27, 2011)

I was tying to ask more of what exactly you are looking for in a large breed puppy food in the analysis. Sorry.


----------



## PDXdogmom (Jun 30, 2010)

dr tim said:


> I was tying to ask more of what exactly you are looking for in a large breed puppy food in the analysis. Sorry.


It's all theoretical; because I wouldn't personally feed a large breed puppy food. For the most part I think it's just one more marketing strategy.

That said, the stated goals behind most large breed kibbles is to have reduced calcium levels and fewer calories compared to a brand's regular puppy formula. The Canine Caviar Large Breed Puppy accomplishes neither of those criteria. And on a side note, I don't like to feed any kibbles with 10.2% ash.


----------



## dr tim (Mar 27, 2011)

I agree. One more way to get more shelf space with no real reasoning.


----------

