# Bloat and raw feeding?



## Gradiose (Feb 10, 2011)

I was thinking last night about the rate of bloat in some breeds, and it dawned on me that bloat is something I have never come across in my research of raw and PMR.
I know in certain breeds, the risk is much higher than in others -and since we have a Doberman, it's always a concern at our house - but has any research been done on bloat on raw Vs kibble fed dogs? I know since kibble makes them gassy it increases the risk...but what about raw??


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## Loki Love (Jan 30, 2011)

Sadly, no one knows for sure what causes bloat. Loki seems to be just as gassy on RAW as he was on kibble (but I'm happy it goes out rather than staying in - I will deal with the smell!)

Personally, I think it's stress triggered and also genetic. It's a horrible thing to think about in any case.


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## eternalstudent (Jul 22, 2010)

I think a lot of it also comes down to how fast the eat and when they eat. One piece of incidental evidence for why it is not seen as much in PMR is that we as a general rule care more about the feeding of our fur kids. (I am not saying that the vast majority of kibble feeders dont  )

When i fed kibble my pup would inhale all her food in under 2 minutes!! thats pretty quick. If we put that with feeding to close to exercise then we have a recipe for bloat. 

With PMR there are meals that I have fed that have taken her nearly an hour to eat, even if I did that immediately after exercise I would probably be alright. BUT I have no intention of finding out


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## DaneMama (Jun 27, 2008)

Honestly, bloat is random and can happen at any time. I went to a continued education seminar a few years ago on bloat and the case studies they have show that bloat is random and mostly associated with stressful situations. Dogs don't even have to eat to bloat. The only genetic component to bloat is the morphological predisposition (deep chested breeds). There is no evidence that bloat is a heritable disease.

I have heard of several raw fed Danes that have bloated. While I believe bloat is pretty much a random occurrence, I tend to think raw foods have a lower incidence of causing bloat to trigger. 

And I'm assuming we are talking about gastric dilation and volvulus (GDV)....


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## SonjaWi (Jan 19, 2011)

If bloat is a random thing, what is up with the "don't play after eating" rule? Is that as random as the "don't swim 30 minutes after eating"? I worry about bloat, too. I think its important to watch out for it, but knowing about it is already half the bill, I guess.


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## BrownieM (Aug 30, 2010)

SonjaWi said:


> If bloat is a random thing, what is up with the "don't play after eating" rule? Is that as random as the "don't swim 30 minutes after eating"? I worry about bloat, too. I think its important to watch out for it, but knowing about it is already half the bill, I guess.


I don't think bloat/GDV is random. I think we simply don't know the cause(s) definitively. GDV has not been proven to be genetic but it does seem to be familial.

I think it is still important to restrict strenuous activity after eating. IMO, something easy like a leashed walk is O.K. after meals. Just no running, jumping, etc.

When my dog had GDV there were many variables - he ate a meal on a very empty stomach, he ran around and he was stressed. I believe the familial aspect played a role as well.


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## BrownieM (Aug 30, 2010)

eternalstudent said:


> I think a lot of it also comes down to how fast the eat and when they eat. One piece of incidental evidence for why it is not seen as much in PMR is that we as a general rule care more about the feeding of our fur kids. (I am not saying that the vast majority of kibble feeders dont  )


I do not agree that bloat is seen less in PMR because PMR feeders care more about the feeding of our dogs. You can have all the care in the world and your dog may still have bloat/torsion.


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## DaneMama (Jun 27, 2008)

SonjaWi said:


> If bloat is a random thing, what is up with the "don't play after eating" rule? Is that as random as the "don't swim 30 minutes after eating"? I worry about bloat, too. I think its important to watch out for it, but knowing about it is already half the bill, I guess.


It's a "preventative" measure that many people believe helps with bloat. Although in my experience working with Dane rescue that these preventative measures dont necessarily work. Every foster home in the rescue is well educated on bloat prevention but we still get a handful of dogs that bloat each year, some of them not making it. I still believe that stress is the #1 reason that triggers bloat whether the dog has eaten or not. 

I also forgot to mention that male dogs are at higher risk, probably because they tend to be larger than females. 

I don't have to worry about my Danes bloating because I had a the preventative surgery done at the same as their spay surgery (and will on the pups when they are old enough). Takes away the risk 99% which is just plain worth it 100%.


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## BrownieM (Aug 30, 2010)

Danamama, while you may feel you don't have to worry about GDV because your dogs are tacked, it does still happen (I know 2 people whose dogs bloated and twisted after being tacked . Many more whose dogs bloated but did not twist after being tacked). Henry is tacked and I take the same precautions I would if he were not tacked.


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## Loki Love (Jan 30, 2011)

DaneMama said:


> I don't have to worry about my Danes bloating because I had a the preventative surgery done at the same as their spay surgery (and will on the pups when they are old enough). Takes away the risk 99% which is just plain worth it 100%.


With all due respect, indicating that you don't have to worry about bloat with your Danes is false. A pexy will buy you time and will help prevent torsion - but if bloat is as random as you think it is, then yes - it could still happen to your puppers.


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## Northwoods10 (Nov 22, 2010)

I think a lot of different things play into bloat and its not just based on the type of food you feed.

We take precautions to not let them eat too quickly, too large of a meal, or play hard before or after meals. At least an hour before and after for any physical activity. 

Obviously, yes, deep chested breeds are at a greater risk....other than that its all up in the air. Scary thing.


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## DaneMama (Jun 27, 2008)

I know darn well that dogs who are tacked can still bloat and torsion but that is due to a failure of the surgery usually the fault of the owner for not allowing enough time for healing after the surgery. If a pexy is done the chances of the dog bloating decreases to ~1% which is MUCH better than ~20% chance for most Danes. The fact that my dogs are tacked gives ME the peace of mind. I actually don't even think about it anymore. I recommend getting a pexy for ALL dogs at risk, which is just my opinion. I know that some here disagree with me, which is just fine. I'd rather play it safe.

I don't really understand why this is such a heated topic


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## BrownieM (Aug 30, 2010)

DaneMama, I for one don't see this as being a heated topic. We are simply stating our opinions. I stated, and will reiterate, that I personally do not believe tacking one's dog's stomach is reason to believe they are in the clear. I think stomach tacking is a GOOD idea but I don't think anyone should believe their dog is in the clear just because they have had the surgery. Other precautions should be continued to be taken, IMO.

Your tacked dogs and my tacked dog could still bloat and/or twist, even though they are tacked, even if it is not likely.

So, in other words, I agree with you that dogs at risk should be tacked. I disagree in that I believe the same environmental precautions should be taken with a tacked dog as with an untacked dog.


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## RawFedDogs (Jun 16, 2008)

I hope this post doesn't turn around and bite me in the butt. I have 2 Danes. One I've had for 10 years the other for 6 years. Neither are tacked. Since both are rescues, their genetics are very questionable at best. They sometimes run after eating, sometimes before eating. They eat very fast. Sometimes they have big meals. I have taken no special precautions against bloat at all. However neither are stressed. We live a very laid back existance and always have. Since we don't know what causes bloat, there is nothing we can do to prevent it. All these precautions in this thread are just "I'll do it just in case."

One time I thought Abby was bloating and after a couple of hours in the E-vet, it was determined that she wasn't. I thought she might be bloating another time but the symptoms disappeared in about 2 minutes before we even went to the vet. Neither time did her stomach swell up. She was just showing pain. Anyway, I am rambling again. I'll stop now. :biggrin:


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## DaneMama (Jun 27, 2008)

I just don't believe the extra precautions people take (restricting food/exercise/water/etc) does any good, at least not in my experience working with the Dane rescue for 4 years now. If these extra precautions worked, I would expect to see less dogs bloating (idk, maybe we would see more bloating if no precautions were taken at all with foster dogs). 

The vets that held the CE seminar who specialized in GDV went over the precautions and said there was no evidence of them helping decrease the occurrence. 

I'm stuck in traffic (not driving LOL) with a weak signal so I can't really find studies about it right now but I will when I get home. 

Maybe it is just me, but it seemed to me that the attitude in this thread was starting to head in the "heated" direction...


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## BrownieM (Aug 30, 2010)

I personally think that you would have seen a higher incidence of bloat in the Dane rescue if people were not taking any environmental precautions. Just like what happened with the flawed Purdue study, it is difficult to make accurate generalizations within a group of people who are already taking the "known" environmental precautions. It seems that these environmental precautions can only do so much to help, but IMO surely they help a little. 

I didn't notice this thread heading in a "heated" direction, but maybe that's just me. :smile:

driving while dogfoodchatting? Tisk tisk.....:nono:


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## DaneMama (Jun 27, 2008)

I'm not driving...Jon is! He's actually annoyed that Im DFCing and not keeping him company LOL. We were stuck in ski traffic with nothing to do :biggrin:


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## Jgk2383 (Oct 27, 2010)

I have nothing constructive to add other than I am petrafied of my shepherds bloating. I do take precautions such as resting after meals, no huge water intake, no huge stress factors, but these things are to make ME feel better and feel like im doing something to help. Does it work? Who the hell knows


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## SonjaWi (Jan 19, 2011)

I came across an interesting article of the Bloat Survey 2010 while looking for more info: Breeding Better Dogs

According to this article feeding of fish and egg decreases the risk of bloat.


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## Northwoods10 (Nov 22, 2010)

I didn't sense it getting heated either....just a couple of people disagree. No harm in that, we can't all agree all the time.

I don't think its proven that doing precautionary things such as resting your dogs before and after eating....no large drinks of water, etc actually does anything to help prevent bloat....but it might make us feel better in the process.


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## Loki Love (Jan 30, 2011)

I didn't see this getting heated at all  

My point with the pexy was that a dog can still bloat (which we've determined is a random event) - but the pexy should prevent the torsion, which is what ultimately can kill your dog (and not bloat). That said, of course nothing is fool proof and you may end up with torsion regardless (due to various factors, but yes, one being not allowing your dog to rest enough after surgery and creating a weaker tack'). Maybe we're all saying the same thing but it's a question of semantics?

I am 100% in agreement for those who have deep chested breeds to have a pexy done. Loki hasn't been pexied - but then he's not neutered either so it would be making the decision to have him under twice for surgery which is another risk in and of itself. Were he going to be neutered anytime soon, he'd be pexied at the same time.


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## Chocx2 (Nov 16, 2009)

I have a large female lab, I call my he / she, she is that large, built like a male athlete. She is not fat, I keep her a little on the thin side for competition. When she was fed kibble she would bloat after every feeding I would sit and burp her. My vet said not to worry, but I did. Now that she is on raw she only bloats when my husband plays with her after she eats, and not always, just when she plays long and hard. But she passes the gas, easier?? Don't know if that makes sense, but even when she bloats its no where near as bad as it was. I think when she gets heated she gulps water??
But still I think raw has cured her of most of that, she doesn't tank up on water after eating


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## tracydr (Feb 25, 2011)

I feel silly even asking this since I've had large breeds for twenty five years. I have a Doberman who gets very gassy, seems to be related to poultry but I haven't quite narrowed it down. How, exactly do I know if she's bloating? I've had a couple of times when she seemed uncomfortable for 15-20 minutes but it passed. I didn't notice any belly pain either time and her vital signs seemed fine. One of those times, I actually think there was a squirrel or some other critter in the backyard and she was just excited, not uncomfortable. Don't you wish they could tell us?
I do listen to her heart with my stethoscope, examine her belly, etc if she acts abnormal. She has a lot of cardiac history in her family ( don't they all, it seems 50%). Im a doctor but also have tons of animal experience, horses and dogs mostly, so I'm sure I'll know but in 25 years of owning big dogs I haven't seen it and want to know what Im looking for.
If a food like chicken/turkey makes her gassy is it increasing her risk of bloat? Geez, it would be hard to source enough meat if I had to avoid all poultry for her. Pork has really skyrocketed lately!


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## luvMyBRT (Mar 8, 2010)

Take a look at this chart:

http://www.bmdinfo.org/Health/Reference_Guide_Bloat_GDV.pdf


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## tracydr (Feb 25, 2011)

Thanks, great chart on bloat!


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## BrownieM (Aug 30, 2010)

THANKS for that chart! I have typed out descriptions of GDV with the E-Vet's phone number for anyone that watches my poodles and I think this a much simpler way to do it!


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## sarweim (Jan 2, 2011)

I've had several incarnations of that same chart on my fridge for years. It's really great, and anyone in the house long enough to get something out of my fridge has looked at and knows what to look for! I think my cats try to hide it sometimes, though, so we don't have it to help the dogs if it ever happens, as I often find it on the floor nearly under the fridge. Once one gets too tattered, I print out another. Maybe I should just laminate it!! *lol*


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## Caty M (Aug 13, 2010)

Do you need to worry about that with all dog breeds? I don't really take any action to avoid feeding around exercise, etc..

I have a sheltie.


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## Jgk2383 (Oct 27, 2010)

bishopthesheltie said:


> Do you need to worry about that with all dog breeds? I don't really take any action to avoid feeding around exercise, etc..
> 
> I have a sheltie.


Its is generally the deeper chested large breed dogs like Great Danes, Dobermans, German Shepherds. Id think your sheltie is just fine


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## sarweim (Jan 2, 2011)

bishopthesheltie said:


> Do you need to worry about that with all dog breeds? I don't really take any action to avoid feeding around exercise, etc..
> 
> I have a sheltie.


I do believe that ALL dogs CAN bloat. Whether their breed is inclined to it or not, it CAN happen. Even with a mixed female I had several years ago (husky/beagle... figure that one out! *lol*) I wouldn't exercise, or get worked up with play or anything, within a half hour of either side of a meal. Always better safer, I figure.


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## DaneMama (Jun 27, 2008)

Sue is right. Any dog can bloat and torsion. Even cats can get GDV....but the risk for most breeds is very low so I wouldn't worry too much about Bishop.


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## Caty M (Aug 13, 2010)

Thanks, I didn't need to worry. Is the risk of bloat really that much different between breeds? Why would a dane bloat more than a smaller breed?

Also later this year I am looking to get a borzoi or greyhound pup.. Would they be considered higher risk?


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## Jgk2383 (Oct 27, 2010)

because a dane has a deeper barreled chest. the stomach has mroe room to flop around and distend, a smaller dog is more compact. At least that is the way ive always understood it.


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## Jgk2383 (Oct 27, 2010)

Borzois are prone to bloat-


Like its native relative the Hortaya Borzaya, the borzoi is basically a very sound breed. OCD, hip and elbow dysplasia have remained almost unknown, as were congenital eye and heart diseases before the 1970s. However, in some countries modern breeding practices have introduced a few problems.

As with other very deep-chested breeds, gastric torsion is the most common serious health problem in the borzoi. Also known as bloat, this life-threatening condition is believed to be anatomical rather than strictly genetic in origin. Many borzoi owners recommend feeding the dog from a raised platform instead of placing the food-dish on the ground, and making sure that the dog rests quietly for several hours after eating, as the most reliable way to prevent bloat.


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## BrownieM (Aug 30, 2010)

Yes, any deep chested dog is prone to bloat even if they are small. I personally think every dog owner should be aware of bloat/GDV. Great Danes have the highest risk of GDV. It is such a significant risk that it is often advised to perform a prophylactic (preventative) surgery where you tack the stomach wall to the ribs in order to prevent torsion. This surgery is called a gastropexy. Some dogs that are at a notable risk include: Great Danes, Dobermans, St. Bernards, Weimaraners, Standard Poodles, etc. Any dog that has that deep, narrow chest. My dog that had GDV has a particularly deep and narrow chest compared to my other dog of the same breed. The dog who bloated actually has a more "correct" chest according to AKC breed standard, which is probably why standard poodles as a breed are in the high risk group.


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