# Really worried possible kidney problems



## Evangeline (Aug 23, 2011)

I have a 5 year old hound mix who has been on raw 3 months and doing great. Tusday night at 8:30pm I let both dogs out to pee. I woke up 12:30 that night to Jordi that night wining I turned on the light and he was laying down peeing I let him outside and he peed for like 5 minutes. I came in to clean up in the bedroom and there was another huge puddle at the other end of the room. He has been peeing like crazy and it looks like water and he has been drinking alot more then usual. He is full of energy and acting perfectlly healthy otherwise. He has had struvite crystals in the past and urinary infections. I had blood work and urinalisis done 4 months ago and everything fine except slightly ellevated creatine levels and one other level and they told me to take him off grain free high protein kibble and go lower protein. Jordi just had a physical Monday and clean bill of health. Should I be geting blood work and urine tested again. Could raw be causing this. His urine is usually really strong odor and color and higher end ph. Its like water. What should I do? I just spent $500.00 on both dogs and really dont want to go through more testing if not necessary. I have told the vets in the past he was drinking more then normal they did blood work and everything was fine. Not sure what to do I will of course spend whatever it takes if I have to.


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## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

What have you been feeding him? I really doubt it is the raw. it sounds like maybe an infection or has he been tested for diabetes with all the drinking?

I'm so sorry. I know you are probably beside yourself. but i would definitely get him into the vet. i don't know of anything in raw food that could cause that.


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## werecatrising (Oct 15, 2010)

Did you give him any enhanced meats?


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## lovemydogsalways (Mar 4, 2012)

My first thought would be a uti. Hope it is nothing serious but i would take him in again.


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## Evangeline (Aug 23, 2011)

He has been tested for diabetes and everything else under the sun. He is on a premade raw chicken beef fish egg bones and 10% organs ground.


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## MollyWoppy (Mar 19, 2010)

I'd have him back at the vets and be demanding answers. Thats just not normal, no matter what his diet is or was, it could not cause symptoms like that. There is something else going on and its the vets job to find out. If he's whining, then he's in pain or anxious about something. Honestly, this is up to the vet to figure out what's happening to your poor pup. Maybe even get copies of all his records and get a second opinion from another vet? (I do that for my husband all the time, it's kindof expected in the medical field nowadays).
Good luck, I really hope they quickly find something simple than can be fixed easily and cheaply. Please keep us updated, I feel for you, it's just horrible when your pup's not feeling well.


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## DaneMama (Jun 27, 2008)

I would definitely get full blood work done, as well as a UA to check urine. 

It could be a UTI, kidney issues, diabetes, etc. But lets not get too worried just yet. Get tests done to rule things out. Keep us all posted!


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

is he drinking more than usual?


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## Evangeline (Aug 23, 2011)

I am geting a full urine test done on Jordi tommorow. If it shows kidney problems and they tell me to put him on vet food for the rest of his life is there a natural alternative. A low phosporus and protein kibble you could recomend. He was doing great on the raw and hate to switch him but if its not helping or making him worse I need to switch.


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## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

If he has kidney problems raw is still the best way to feed him. There is no dry food that's going to be better.

have you given him any treats or any food other than the raw food?


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## Evangeline (Aug 23, 2011)

dried beef and liver. I am being told raw is to high protein. I dont understand that considering its natural form and has water. I was told to keep calcium, phosphorus and protein low because of struvite crystals. How am I suppost to monitor that on raw.


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## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

There are several articles on how to feed raw to a dog with struvite crystals. here is one:
Raw Meat Diet to Prevent Crystals in Dogs Urine | eHow.com

If you keep calcium, phosphorus, and protein low you are feeding vegetables. From what I understand, the crystals are helped along by the pH and not the meat.

Meat actually LOWERS pH which is good. Artifical and Rx foods may be a temporary help but they aren't a solution.

Some suggestions are giving your dog cranberry juice and apple cider vinegar to keep the pH low. 

Here is another article:



> Struvite Crystals, FLUTD, Canine Struvite Urolithiasis – Treatment and Prevention with a two step approach The objective in both prevention and treatment of struvite crystals, bladder stones and urolithiasis should be restoration of the essential natural archetypal canine/feline diet, and replenishment of essential nutrients to restore proper urinary tract balance.
> 
> Revert the diet to its natural form. The diet pet carnivores are designed for is meat based. It is not by coincidence that high protein foods naturally generate a more acidic urine which prevents the development of struvite crystals and bladder stones. Feed entirely meat based and foods, either raw or minimally processed to preserve full nutrient value. Feeding in variety, not feeding just one food meal after meal, is also critical to health. Supplement with pH balancing supplements depending on the circumstances increasing or decreasing pH balance to restore natural balances and acidify the urine. Decreasing the pH balance helps to overcome the deficiencies in commercial processed pet foods by helping the animal extract the nutrients that are locked into the mainstay commercial diet(s). Biotic pH- decreasing supplement nutrients, which are commonly lacking as a result of processing pet foods. They also supply nutrients which help regulate metabolism to generate an acid urine. An acid urine has been demonstrated to not only be calculolytic (dissolves existing struvite crystals), but also preventative for the formation of struvite crystals and bladder stones in Feline Lower Urinary Tract Disease (FLUTD) and canine urolithiasis.


All about pets and pet nutrition: Struvite Crystals, FLUTD, Canine Struvite Urolithiasis, Bladder Stones – understanding the causes…


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## Evangeline (Aug 23, 2011)

I just had a full urine test done on Jordi. Everything came back normal. Monday he is going for bloodwork. The vet asked me what I was feeding him and I told them raw. They want him on a low protein low phosphorus kibble. He is very active so my consern is he will not maintain weight on a low protein diet. They are telling me to put him on vet food which I refuse. Can anyone give me any dry kibble that would work. I am keeping my other dog on the raw as it has done wonders for his allergies but with Jordi if the vet says he needs speciel diet then I am not going to fool around especialy when it comes to his kidneys.


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

Evangeline said:


> I just had a full urine test done on Jordi. Everything came back normal. Monday he is going for bloodwork. The vet asked me what I was feeding him and I told them raw. They want him on a low protein low phosphorus kibble. He is very active so my consern is he will not maintain weight on a low protein diet. They are telling me to put him on vet food which I refuse. Can anyone give me any dry kibble that would work. I am keeping my other dog on the raw as it has done wonders for his allergies but with Jordi if the vet says he needs speciel diet then I am not going to fool around especialy when it comes to his kidneys.


i think i missed something here....if there is nothing wrong, why the need for a change.

if i remember correctly, the diet you have them on is pretty well balanced in regard to calcium: phosphorous...

plus, a raw diet is about 21 - 28% protein, which isn't very high.

did i misunderstand?


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## Evangeline (Aug 23, 2011)

I still dont no if there is a problem yet but the vet says raw is to high protein.


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## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

Evangeline said:


> I still dont no if there is a problem yet but the vet says raw is to high protein.


your vet is wrong. Most raw is about 20% protein. Alot of kibbles are up to 36% protein. 

And if you feed a low protein kibble, you are going to be feeding one of those horrible nasty foods that's absolutely the worst for your dog. It will probably be full of sawdust.

I'd find a vet that is more raw friendly - seriously. He is steering you wrong.

AND it's not the protein that's the problem -it's the ACID level in the urine. Please read the article I posted for you. Many pepole here feed raw with stones.


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

Evangeline said:


> I still dont no if there is a problem yet but the vet says raw is to high protein.


absent any problems that come up, other than your vet's opinion, there are way too many of us who have had to find out the hard way that vet's may not be the go to person when it comes to food.

raw feeding is mostly water...that's why dogs don't drink as much when they are on raw....we are talking about approximately 21- 28% protein. 

compared to foods laden with carbs and grains, that's not high at all....


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## Khan (Jan 17, 2010)

A few months ago we thought Shelby was suffering from Kidney disease. I did some research and found that the High protein is not necessarily the problem. Rather it's the type of protein. Check this link out. DogAware.com Health: Kidney Disease in Dogs 
Our vet agreed that the once "rule" of low protein high carbs has been updated.


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## Evangeline (Aug 23, 2011)

I am going tommorow to the vet for blood test. The vet says she is going to do a bloodtest that will tell me if he has cushings,diabetes or liver problems this is going to cost me $180.00 and I did this exact test 6 months ago and everything was normal and I just spent $600.00 between both dogs at the vet in the last two weeks. My question is should I not do this blood test and do a full wellness bloodtest instead it will cost me $300.00 but I think it covers all organs aswell as cancer. Money is an issue as I shouldnt keep going test after test. Which blood test should I go with. Do you no if the wellness covers diabetes and cushings. I would spend every cent I have on my dogs if I had to all I am saying is I rather do one more test instead of several more if possible. What would you do.


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

if this were my dog and he peed in the house and peed way too much and the urine smelled differently and strong and the pH was on the upper side,

i would get him tested. because i have to sleep at night. 

i would talk to the vet and tell him/ her that money is an issue but you'll do what he suggests other than take your dog off what has been the perfect diet....

btw, did this start after you started feeding raw? or just the other night?

is he drinking more than usual?


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## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

Other people know way more about this than me, but I think the test for Cushing is expensive. I know when i lived in Indy my vet couldn't even do it at her office. It may be ruling out other stuff rather than a definitive test but I really don't know for sure. A big pot belly is a sign of Cushings also.

The diabetes test should just be a simple sugar level.


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## Evangeline (Aug 23, 2011)

He is peeing more then usual and exssesive drinking. This started two weeks ago but has gotten signifentlly gotten worse in the last two days urinalisis just came back normal, he just had a blood test I will get the results back today. The vet is leaning towards cushings or diabetes, she doesnt think its kidneys. He has been on raw maybe two months. Six months ago he had tests done all came back normal except slightly elevated creatine, at that time he was drinking excessivelly but not like this and he could hold his bladder. Im not changing his diet untill I figure out exactlly what is wrong. Know I just have to wait.


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## DaneMama (Jun 27, 2008)

Keep us all posted!


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## Evangeline (Aug 23, 2011)

Well just thought I would give an update on Jordi. He has now had urinalisis came back perfect, diabetes test came back perfect, full blood work came back perfect. Now I am waiting for another urinalisis I just sent off to come back it is suppost to check for cushings. Jordi is now inhaling his food which he has never done in his life. He acts like hese starving and is still peeing and drinking like crazy but he is ripping around playing like a normal dog otherwise. Her advice so far is get a slow feed bowl and pick up water at night. I feel like saying the dog is drinking for a reason. Im not looking to mask the symptoms I am looking for a diagnosis. I understand the vets arnt god but sometimes I dont agree with there advice. I am so frustrated and worried about my dog, I have been literally sick for two weeks now because I am so worried about Jordi. I cant just keep forking out hundreds of dollars and get no answers. What would you do.


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## Liz (Sep 27, 2010)

Is any of his food enhanced. Maybe salt is the issue?


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

Ingredients

About 20 years ago we were asked to supply several sled dog racing teams with a specific blend of raw ingredients. The dogs liked it so much, we have continued to produce Raw Dog Feed using the same recipe.
- Chicken 40%
- Beef (red meat and bone) 15%
- Beef (internal organs, tripe, kidney, heart) 20%
- Fish 20%
- Cooked Eggs 5%

Dry matter feed analysis shows 48% protein, 33% fat and 6% ash. The ingredients are fine ground and mixed together then frozen in 40 pound blocks. We cut the block into a convenient size for our customers which is usually 20 or 24 pieces (about 2 pounds per piece).

i believe this is the dog food evangeline is feeding...

it seemed as if the ratios from the other discussion were pretty good and that this particular raw blend was okay to feed.

i don't know why jodie is drinking too much...how old is jodie?

is exercise increasing? is it hot where you live?

when you called rawdogfood, did you ask if they used any kind of salt?

at this point, i'd be buying belly bands and great big pads for your dog and then i'd research.


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## Evangeline (Aug 23, 2011)

No its not hot were I live. They do not add any salt to the raw and he is not peeing allover the house he had the one accident in the house two weeks ago and none sinse then. He is a active 5 year old hound mix. I have been leting him out lots to pee and he is still drinking lots. I am still waiting for the results. So how much protein would he get in that raw I feed him a pound and a half a day. How much protein would that be compared to dry kibble.


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## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

Most raw is somewhere around 20 percent. For example, raw chicken is a little more than 18 percent protein.

Dry foods vary. you'll have to check your food. I know some go as high as 36 percent.


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

well, if his tests are coming back fine and he's not having accidents.....other than drinking more than usual...the weather here is warmer, tho not hot....i've noticed my dogs are drinking more than they did in the winter....

is it possible there is nothing wrong? he's just thirsty?

raw food is approximately 20-28% protein....in actuality, because it's 70% or so water, it's relatively low in protein compared to dry food....but in dry food, i think it comes out to about 48% which means don't feed dry food. 

let us know if anything changes....it sounds like he's fine...although i'm not a vet...


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## BeagleCountry (Jan 20, 2012)

I'd suggest taking him off the current pre-made food temporarily. Feed strictly PMR for 2 weeks to determine if there is a change. There is the possibility that an error was made in making the food. It could be something as simple as enhanced meat being unknowingly used by the manufacturer.

If there is no change I'd think he has become an aguaholic. It causes no harm. My aguaholic had the best teeth of any kibble fed dog. Nice, fresh breath, too.


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## Evangeline (Aug 23, 2011)

I just called the guy that makes the raw food. He says none of the meat is enhanced and there is no salt added. He uses cooked eggs in the food. I asked him what kind of fish was in the food. He said the local fishers catch dogfish, perch and sunfish. Is this safe to feed them. I either feed them this food or kibble. Buying my own raw meat is to expensive from the grocery as I dont have a butcher as I have said before.


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

evangeline, i don't think it's the food. 

i remember when you were going to start this food and i think we dissected it pretty well, including you calling the guy who makes it several times to ask questions.

if he's acting normally, other than drinking more...which would make him pee more given his kidneys are fine...which they sound like they are, since what goes in should come out equivalently......and his tests are all coming back normal and he's acting very healthy....i wish i could offer another suggestion.

i will say this. vets know nothing about nutrition. you know more than yours does.

it says on the website, that, if this were dry food, it would be 48% protein, but that's because all of the liquid is removed, so it's a dry weight percentage. you're not feeding dry weight, so the percentage of protein drops to reasonable. you could ask the guy who makes it what the percentage is raw....and get an answer that way.

the one thing i think you don't want to do is stop feeding raw to your dogs. they probably look better, act better....true?

i don't know how far you go testing.....i'd probably get the cushing test to rule it in or out.....but that's me. 

we regularly go without for our dogs....but we're just crazy that way.

i still don't see anything wrong with this food you're feeding. and this guy who makes it has been very up front with you.


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## Evangeline (Aug 23, 2011)

Yes the guy is very nice on the phone, doesnt act like he is hiding anything. If the results from the cushings test come back normal I will just keep him on the raw. One quick question the boys get fed kibble on the weekends only because I travel and its much easier. Jordi eats the fromm gold but the phosphorus is high and he craps it all out. Is there another low phoshorus and protein food you could reccomend. I thought blue buffallo senior but not sure if I trust that company.


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

i wonder if the kibble is the problem....how long has he been eating fromm gold?

does he drink just as much on the weekends as he does during the week?


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## Evangeline (Aug 23, 2011)

He has been eating fromm 5 months. He drinks the same during the week and weekends.


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

so basically, he increased his drinking for no apparent reason.

what i would suggest, kibble wise, is to go onto the dry food section and ask about kibbles that might be more suitable...high in phosphorous could would probably be present in both the kibble and the raw food, especially if the mixture is not from grass fed/grass finished animals....which is not so much a problem as it needs a balance...if that makes sense.

so maybe the real question is how to balance out the phosphorous.......


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