# Recommendations for people with"time limitations"



## CavePaws (Jan 25, 2011)

Alright...so here is the deal. Now, since everyone at our training facility knows I feed raw and advocate it, it's becoming quite clear to them that this is what I truly believe and advocate and no one will change my mind. Everyone who asks me in class about what to feed will then get a quick lesson on PMR, and then I go on to tell them a list of foods I _personally _recommend. The other trainers and I seem to disagree on a few things, but this is okay, everyone has their opinion. I've been telling the clients, "research, research, research! form your own opinion on feeding your dog from what you learn". I want them to know the truth of course.

So, finally, in a free manners class my boss does every month, she started talking about raw feeding a little bit and mentioned that I do this. I heard murmurs throughout the room, one person with a puppy saying to his wife "that's what the breeder recommends". So I'm immediately excited about talking to this person once the manners class if over. Well, of course, none of the benefits were highlighted really, and the negative that seems to turn almost every person off was highlighted, "It takes a lot of time to feed this way"...Oh I wish I could have been the one to deliver the message about raw feeding. .___.'

It does NOT take a lot of time. Maybe a bit of thought, maybe a tiny bit of prep work, but come on people it's not like going to the freezer to get out your dogs food for the day is running, biking, and swimming a triathalon. Seriously, I'm absolutely sure these people spend some amount of time off of work...Why can't you take the 5 minutes out of your day to feed your dog?! I'm so sorry there isn't a scoop and a bag involved here. :| 

So anyway, when I talked to the guy a bit who said his breeder feeds whole chickens, he was saying "No, no, no...I just don't have time for that" and of course, the other trainers are going, "Ya, Kelly is a single lady with only a few dogs to feed so she has the time to do it" oh my gosh, this is a laugh. I have 5 dogs to feed on a daily basis...I also prepare the weeks meals for my dads dogs and bring those out to him. So, seeing as I would really like this guy who at least has his foot in the door to at least give it a try, I say, "Well, there is pre-ground raw you could buy..." but it seems my recommendation was drowned out by the talk of how cheap Kirkland is to feed. I don't think it clicked for the guy how easy pre-ground would be for him...Just as easy as a bag of kibble...Just. As. Easy. And your dog will probably finish it faster too. And you have a puppy so it would be an easy transition. Oh, I could go on and on.

/sigh

I wish I could be the one speaking on nutrition in these classes. :|


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## chowder (Sep 7, 2008)

I just don't understand these people who view feeding their animals as a 'chore' to be over with as quickly as possible. You should see supper at our house! We sing the 'suppertime' song, dance around the living room a little bit, then all march to the kitchen where they all line up in a row and wait with eager grins on their faces while I make each of their pans. 

It's a happy occasion and I enjoy every minute of it!! Then we all get group hugs back in the living room after they are finished eating :grouphug:

Of course, then it's time for "Jeopardy" and a group snooze on the couch with full bellies!


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## CavePaws (Jan 25, 2011)

We sing a lot to our dogs too!!! Especially at meal time. They get SO HAPPY. Puck, who used to hardly eat, now does spins and twists as he runs around the house excited for his meal. It is HILARIOUS. I enjoy feeding my dogs so much too. It's such a blast for them and a blast for me to watch them eat...Okay, and I like it that they don't tell me to shut up because my voice sounds really horrible.


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## SerenityFL (Sep 28, 2010)

Ok, what a load of horse puckey. My old job, I used to work well over 40 hours a week. I then had to come home, take the hoodlums out, individually, deal with the stupid neighbors, get them their exercise, some training in and then go back and do the next hoodlum. 

Then I had to come back, get the food out, prepare it for 7, SEVEN, 7 cats, and two hoodlums. I cut, weighed and put the cats' food in their bowls and the hoodlums go to their crates. WHILE I'm cutting and prepping, I have seven cats winding around my legs, jumping up on the counter, arguments, hissy fits, growling and I have to break that all up, no less than 10 times each time.

I then get the hoodlums to their crates and throw their food in. I then have to get the bowls to the cats, each in its own place, and have to move cats around who are NOT listening, until finally, at long last, everyone is at their designated spot to eat.

THEN I have to clean and wash dishes.

I do this all by myself.

The total time after walkies? 20 minutes.

B.S. there is no time in the day to do this. B!S!

If they don't have 20 minutes each day, then how about they try prepping everything once a month. Get containers, get a menu going, go to the store, buy the meat and bones and organ, come home, get out the cutting board, get out the knife, get out the scale and start dividing up the food. Put that food in to the containers. Put two days worth of food in the fridge, (in containers). Put the other stuff in the freezer.

With the food from the fridge, pull out container, plop food in to bowl, (or feed straight from container), watch dog (or cat) eat. Throw container in dishwasher or wash by hand.

When they have given the 2nd days worth from the fridge, open the freezer, pull out two more days worth of food.

Total time each day: 30 seconds

Total time each month: Depending on number of animals: 20 minutes to an hour. Yes, an hour for 7 cats and 2 dogs for a month's worth of food. ONE HOUR a MONTH.

Again I say, B!S! they don't have the time.


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## phoDOGrapher (May 30, 2011)

Isn't part of the point of having pets to spend time with them? That's why we keep them in the first place! If they don't have time to FEED them, how do they have time to walk them, brush them, clip their nails, etc etc etc... why do they have dogs???

So why not spend a fraction of the time spent with their dogs doing something THEY like (eating!) instead of spending the time doing something WE like (watching tv, staring at our computer screens turning into complete zombies). They can't seriously tell you that they don't spend any time doing these things. 

I LOVE feeding time. At breakfast I grab my coffee, my dogs, and two bowls of scrumptious meat, go out onto the front lawn, and watch in awe as they devour it. This takes less than 5 minutes, and is very relaxing! Way better than those aggravating reality TV shows....


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## whiteleo (Sep 7, 2008)

The truth is that at some point someone in that class is going to have problems with kibble, whether their dog cannot handle the type of cooked proteins or even the tiniest amount of grains whatever brand they start to feed and guess what, you will be there to help those that need it. The biggest hurdle for most people is time, and once they see it really isn't that big a deal they will wonder why they haven't been feeding PMR all along!

Don't beat yourself up, the time will come!


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## RachelsaurusRexU (Sep 4, 2010)

"No time" is such a lame excuse. It takes me a few hours every 6-7 weeks to pick up, portion out and stock my freezers. On a daily basis, it takes mere minutes to feed everyone. I open the container that I set out to thaw the night before and literally toss each dogs' meal onto my kitchen floor or into their crates. Done. When I first started, I'd mop after every meal. I don't even do that anymore.


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## chowder (Sep 7, 2008)

RachelsaurusRexU said:


> When I first started, I'd mop after every meal. I don't even do that anymore.


HA! Chelsy eats off the floor because it's easier for her to pick up. I used to wipe the floor with a clorox wipe after she was done. Now I just send Shade in to lick the floor clean after Chelsy is done and that is good enough!! I know that Shade isn't going to leave a single scrap anywhere in that room!


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## bernadettelevis (Feb 2, 2011)

I never thought i would say that  but i now like cutting meat and packaging it  And of course i enjoy feeding it to him


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## Khan (Jan 17, 2010)

I agree that it really doesn't take any time at all to feed. What it does take however is commitment, and that I'm afraid is what people who view their animals as "just a dog" have the issue with. Heaven forbid that they actually have to have some thought and planning/prep for their dog! These are the people that I don't think you will ever convince. These are the same people who believe turning the dog out in the backyard is exercise enough.

I do think that maybe you should have some sort of "canned response" for those people, like the couple with the new puppy. Something that will be informative, and "peak their interest" for lack of better words, " A Highlight Reel" Shoot, maybe even direct them to this site, so they can read some real life stories. 
I'm a sales rep, and if I've learned one thing about sales, you really need to make "them" think it's their idea. You want to make them engaged and interested in the idea, nudge them in the direction and tell them, do some research, come back and ask me questions. People don't like change for various reasons. Usually it is because they don't know any better, or because if they decide to make a change and more problems arise, how does that make them look...Not Good and nobody wants that!

I think the key, is to really listen to each person/situation. Believe me, as a Sales Rep, I need to remind myself of that on every call. Rather than "Product Dump" really listen to why the person is interested, worried about time/germs etc. It will make you a formidable opponent to the other trainers; but it also makes you a person the participants in the class will come to respect and admire!

This made me think of when I first switched to raw. My husband said, figure out what will be best for Khan and just do it. So when I bring him this info, he truly thought I had lost my mind. Feed a dog Bones! Are you crazy!! He will choke to death, especially since he eats his food like a Freight Train. So at first, I chose to feed raw boneless meals with a bone meal supplement. It wasn't ideal; but it was a compromise with hubby. About 8 months in, and after a couple conversions of colleagues, I was talking with the husband, and telling him about the deal one of them had gotten on chicken quarters. It was at this point he says, well how come you don't feed those?...Really, are you kidding me? You seriously are asking why I don't feed them? Because of YOU! He has this dumbfounded look and says, well if that's what we should be doing, I have no problem with that.


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## tem_sat (Jun 20, 2010)

I think you need to construct a hand-out.

First of all, you need to list suppliers and contact information. They need to be treated like they know NOTHING and cannot possibly think for themselves. So...

List of supplies and suppliers (co-op info).
List of websites for further info regarding detailed feeding and amounts.
Cite your average cost that you pay per pound to feed your dog.
Cite the average time spent it takes you to feed everyone daily.
Direct them to this forum.

They need something PHYSICAL in their hand to read and reread when they get home. What you verbally tell them will not be retained for more than a few seconds.


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## Tobi (Mar 18, 2011)

Time constraints is such a cop-out. It's equally as bad as it's too expensive... lazy lazy people, look forward to the day when you get that 1 person that comes to you and really wants to change the way they feed their dog Kelly! i'm sure it will happen!!! :biggrin:


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## eternalstudent (Jul 22, 2010)

If its too much time for you to feed your pet, 
DONT GET ONE

They rely on us for food, exercise, socialisation, warmth, shade, water etc etc etc etc.................

If you can not be bothered to provide for them, let them go to someone who will. 

Ok so I only have one dog, and it takes me maybe 2 min max per day to feed, then once every 6 weeks I take a drive to the store for supplies. Thats it.


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## mischiefgrrl (Oct 28, 2010)

chowder said:


> HA! Chelsy eats off the floor because it's easier for her to pick up. I used to wipe the floor with a clorox wipe after she was done. Now I just send Shade in to lick the floor clean after Chelsy is done and that is good enough!! I know that Shade isn't going to leave a single scrap anywhere in that room!


LOL me too. I have four great mops between the cats and the dogs. I call them in, point to the mess on the floor and they clean it up!


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## CavePaws (Jan 25, 2011)

tem_sat said:


> I think you need to construct a hand-out.
> 
> First of all, you need to list suppliers and contact information. They need to be treated like they know NOTHING and cannot possibly think for themselves. So...
> 
> ...


I've been needing to do this for a while. I'll make one up, shouldn't be that hard seeing as I've already done the work for them in research of places to get meat.  I think the biggest factor here is the freezer most of them will need to buy in bulk for their dogs, which is what makes it so cheap...

Thanks guys. Lol, I totally agree, if you can't take the time to feed your dog for five minutes...well, it seems to me you have a little problem with time management - especially in regard to your pets. 

Here in Texas in the summer it should be no problem for someone to feed their pet in the backyard. If this isn't an option for them, feeding them on tile or in a crate is my next suggestion. The "mess" is no excuse. To me, time really isn't much of an excuse either. It is a very simple diet. Most people seem to think it is just SO complicated...Well, it isn't. At all. 

If you guys got a hand out a while back for raw feeding, what do you think the most key points you would like to know would be?


edit: I am waiting for that day, David. I hope it comes soon!


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## JayJayisme (Aug 2, 2009)

Well, it's true. No matter what, feeding PMR takes more time than feeding kibble. Might was well accept that and not try to deny it. If cost is no object and you can buy whatever kind of meat you want, whenever you need it, that truly would cut down on the time spent feeding raw. But I strive to keep the average cost below $1/lb. and that takes a lot of time, energy, and work. The prep time, packing, freezing, defrosting, feeding, and clean-up also consumes much more time than kibble feeding does. Really...it's true.

But I say SO WHAT!

Do you sit down at breakfast every morning and pour yourself a bowl of poison because you "have no time to prepare a wholesome meal"? If you have time to feed yourself properly, shouldn't you extend the same courtesy to your dog? Why is it that as humans (I'm generalizing here) we pretty much accept that packaged processed foods are bad for you. Even if we eat them, we accept that they should be eaten in moderation. If that is generally understood, why can't we accept that same logic for our dogs? Why is highly processed, prepackaged food bad for people but good for dogs? It makes absolutely no sense.

But to all the whiners who complain about how much time it takes, I offer this. I spend very little time picking up dog crap, and when I do, it is really small and easy to pick up and dispose of. I hardly ever go to the vet, which can also take an incredible amount of time. I don't have to brush my dog's teeth, which would also be a significant time expenditure, if I had to do it. I don't have to go to a special store to buy food, I just go to the supermarket and buy their food from the same places I buy food for my family. I also spend almost no time cleaning eye boogers from my dog's eyes, or cleaning their ears, or buying special ear cleaning solutions. I don't have to spend any time trying to get the "eau de dog" out of my furniture or house, there is no dog smell. When I get them groomed, I skip the teeth cleaning (as mentioned previously) and the anal gland expression. My groomer always get my dog done first because he's the easiest, thanks to raw. I therefore spend less time at the groomer.

I'm sure I could think of a few other things that I save time on as a result of raw feeding but that is enough right there, off the top of my head, to justify it timewise. Sure, you may spend more time on the front end to feed raw, but you save time on the back end and you have a healthier dog that is cheaper to feed. It should be a no-brainer.


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## Liz (Sep 27, 2010)

Here are some time savers I think of while packaging meat - I save time on
1. tooth brushing
2. bathing
3. ear cleaning
4. vet appointments
5. pooper scooping

Those are just a few real time savers - forget the money saved.


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## Tobi (Mar 18, 2011)

And on top of all the time savers... it doesn't take but a few hours every few months to repackage if you're buying in bulk... and if you don't have time for that you don't have time to properly care for a dog, and you shouldn't have it in the first place.


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## SerenityFL (Sep 28, 2010)

JayJayisme said:


> Do you sit down at breakfast every morning and pour yourself a bowl of poison because you "have no time to prepare a wholesome meal"? If you have time to feed yourself properly, shouldn't you extend the same courtesy to your dog?


The thing is, a lot of people actually do not provide themselves with the correct nutrition and rely on drive thrus, packaged meals, 7-11, etc. And it's the same excuse: "I don't have time!"

The fact is, people DO have time, they just choose NOT to use it wisely. I had a friend who, every single time I called her, was in her car going to the store or doing some errand. I could never understand why she and people like her could not sit down, write out a list of things to get and do it all in one day. Why do some people insist on going to the store every single night or picking one errand to run a day instead of just doing them all at the same time? I will never understand this. I have, as I've said, 2 dogs, 7 cats. I work..(well, not right now for the past two weeks but hopefully very soon again), full time and I do everything on my own. I do not have someone to run an errand for me. But I still manage to get everything done in a day and have all that other time to myself and for my pets.

In other words, people have crap time managment skills, can't organize to save their lives and basically, instead of learning how to do that, whine and moan and use it as an excuse not to be able to do anything.

But I stand by what I said earlier that if one plans, feeding can be done just as fast as kibble with the exception of the shopping. BUT, since I would assume people are going to go to the store for themselves at some point, they can pick up the food for the pets at the same time. 

Having said all of that, it IS more expensive than kibble. I'm sorry if you all don't like to hear that but it is and in some cases, as much as we may not like to hear it, it CAN be a valid excuse. Not everyone makes a lot of money and when you compare a bag of kibble from the store, (which a lot of people get), at $20 a bag that lasts a month to raw food which can cost $80-100 a month, yes, it is more expensive.

Having said THAT, if someone really wanted to feed raw and stop making excuses, they could find ways to cut costs in their own lives and actually spend some of that money on their pets, instead.


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## JayJayisme (Aug 2, 2009)

SerenityFL said:


> The thing is, a lot of people actually do not provide themselves with the correct nutrition and rely on drive thrus, packaged meals, 7-11, etc. And it's the same excuse: "I don't have time!"


You can't help these people. If they can't figure out the basics of human nutrition, chances are they aren't going to try to figure it out for their dogs either. No point wasting your time on them.



SerenityFL said:


> Having said all of that, it IS more expensive than kibble. I'm sorry if you all don't like to hear that but it is and in some cases, as much as we may not like to hear it, it CAN be a valid excuse. Not everyone makes a lot of money and when you compare a bag of kibble from the store, (which a lot of people get), at $20 a bag that lasts a month to raw food which can cost $80-100 a month, yes, it is more expensive.


It depends on how you do it. If you compare PMR to premium kibble, and you are a good shopper and live somewhere where prices are competitive, you can definitely feed a dog cheaper on raw than on kibble. Premium kibble can cost $2.00 per pound and up. Most PMR feeders spend .75 to $1.00 per pound on average. This has been discussed to death here but it is not too hard to feed dogs PMR for less than premium kibble or premium canned. Kirkland and Old Roy? Well, that's another story. But anyone considering mass-market dog foods probably isn't looking at raw either.


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## SerenityFL (Sep 28, 2010)

JayJay, you're preaching to the choir, I know all of this. My point is, MANY people who have pets do not feed themselves properly NOR do they bother with purchasing premium kibble. A lot of them buy that crap you find in the grocery store. Convincing them is going to be difficult because they are going to say, "I don't have time" and "It costs too much".

Oh, and, I used to be one of those "mass market" dog food buyers. So don't dismiss them.


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## JayJayisme (Aug 2, 2009)

My point is that trying to change the thinking and habits of people who have little to no regard for proper nutrition is virtually pointless. If you are addressing a crowd with the hopes of converting some of them to raw, these kinds of people are generally a waste of time and energy. The people who are more likely to listen and respond are the ones who already value nutrition, for themselves and/or their pets.

We all fed kibble at one time. But I'll bet you went from crap kibble to premium kibble before you went raw, right? Maybe not, but it is rare for people to make the quantum leap from mass-market kibble to raw. They usually take the "premium kibble" interim step first. Those are your most likely converts is all I'm sayin'.

Cheers!


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## CavePaws (Jan 25, 2011)

I agree with the thought that someone who buys really crumby grocery store kibble will most likely go to a "premium kibble" before raw...I went from crap kibble to premium to half raw to full raw...It took me a few steps to get here, but wow. My dogs look better than ever and ARE better than ever internally as well. 

It is sort of sad the way people think. I just hate it that these people are so indulged by the thought that because I'm "single" (not married) and "have only a few dogs" it's easier for me to feed raw than they who are married, have a kid or two, and a new puppy. It just irks me. :|


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## Grandiose (Apr 2, 2011)

What the heck does marital status have to do with the amount of time it takes to feed a dog? People will find any excuse, I guess!!

I feed 5 dogs raw and my foster dog kibble...it takes me longer to feed the kibble dog than the 5 PMR dogs. 
It takes me 10 seconds to pull their dinner out of the freezer and toss it on the counter in the morning, and about a minute to toss it into bowls for them in the evening.
The only part that takes any real time for me is breaking down the bulk orders, which is a bi-monthly thing for me.

Don't know how people claim they don't have the time to take better care of their pets yet spend hours planted on the couch watching television. Think of it this way: if you spent just the commercial time during your two favorite one hour shows every week packaging meat, your dog could eat PMR without disrupting your "schedule"....heck, for one dog, it probably won't even take that long.


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## SerenityFL (Sep 28, 2010)

JayJayisme said:


> We all fed kibble at one time. But I'll bet you went from crap kibble to premium kibble before you went raw, right? Maybe not, but it is rare for people to make the quantum leap from mass-market kibble to raw. They usually take the "premium kibble" interim step first. Those are your most likely converts is all I'm sayin'.
> 
> Cheers!


Then I'm rare because I never fed "premium" kibble. I was feeding them some sort of puppy food from the grocery store and then went straight to raw. Again, don't dismiss those people.


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## CorgiPaws (Mar 31, 2009)

Ok, so this is coming from someone who has one dog that sometimes takes an hour or more to finish some meals. (annie) But even so, there are ways around it. 
I currently have five dogs in my house, and the "resident dog" at work (Murphy) that I take care of, and will soon be adding Mousse to the pack, making Seven. I'll be honest in that it does take my husband and I about 4 or 5 hours to prep about 5 or 6 weeks worth of food for out pack. That's less than an hour per week. That's less than ten minutes per day. That's for organizing, packing, loading in the freezer, and cleaning up. Then at meal time, the others are done in 5 minutes or less, and Annie takes her sweet time. If I have to leave, well then Annie gets tossed in her crate with some food and she can take her time. If I know I really have got somewhere to be, and she is coming with me or for whatever other reason can't be thrown in the crate to eat...well, there are ways around this. Feed a boneless meal. Feed a ground meal. Fed canned fish that night. 
I don't feed tripe for nutritional value (my personal opinion is it doesn't add anything to the diet.) but ALWAYS have some canned tripe, canned fish, and eggs on hand for those in a rush nights that I know I can't wait for Annie to nom for an hour. Half a can of fish, Half a can of tripe, a couple eggs, and TA DAA, dinner! AND, it's certainly not the end of the world to fast for a night every now and then. I fast mine about once a week because I like the benefits of gorging them every now and then, and then fasting to compensate for the large amount of food. Sometimes I will run Annie by herself and then stick her in the garage (where I feed currently since my yard isn't fenced) and let her start early while I walk the rest of them so she can have a head start. 

So, there's several solutions to in-a-rush nights
feed in crate. 
feed ground something. 
feed canned fish
fast. 

If every single night is so dang hectic you can't shill out for a few minutes while your pet eats, you have SERIOUSLY got to reconsider if you should have pets.


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## KittyKat (Feb 11, 2011)

Hmm, doesn't take me anymore time really then feeding kibble. I come home with bags of chicken/beef heart w/e.... separate it into bags (1 bag each day) and freeze it. I don't even weigh it... i just guess the amount.


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## monkeys23 (Dec 8, 2010)

I really enjoy prepping their meals for the freezer. Even big projects like cutting up a beef liver, a couple kidneys, some hearts, and repackaging chicken quaters into meals for the next 5-6 weeks doesn't take more than 30 min to an hour.

I remember I made excuses like I didn't have freezer space and for a while I was legitimately couch hopping with friends/family while doing temp work, so that would've sucked, but when I finally had had it with kibble produced by corporations (changed from Evo after the buyout and Lily just kept having really hard poo on kibble for some reason... it was very good kibble too...) and just went raw I was so surprised at how easy the switch was and how easy it was to prep and store for two dogs (50 & 60lbs respectively) even with just a regular above the fridge freezer. Now I'm very limited monetarily (I have zero extras in my own life, I don't even own a tv) and probably could not do raw at all if I wasn't getting so much free beef from my family's livestock, but its so so obvious how natural and beneficial it is for them that I can't believe how resistant people are to feeding raw. The results I get aren't that different from the premium kibble I was feeding (Acana grain free), but the satisfaction they derive from eating real food is more than worth it.

I am utterly convinced that the only reason our past family dogs have been so healthy and lived so long was because of rodent/bird hunting they did and all the rich offal during lambing/calving in the spring. Because it sure as hell wasn't the crappy cheap kibble they were eating...

Speaking of which, I should go let chirpy off her tie-out and bring them back in since she's saying she is done eating. :biggrin:


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

i have two questions...

what decided you to go raw? how long did it take, i mean to say, you to figure out it was the food and not the breed and not the vet and not any other reason that made you try raw?

and the second question is

what do you guys do for breakfasts and lunches and dinners? regardless of whether or not you have kids, husbands, cranky grandparents, etc...

the reason i bring this up is i think about my sister in law...she gets up at 5 a.m. every morning and gets herself ready for work, which includes shower, ironing (don't ask), breakfast, kids off to school.....walk the dog, feed the dog, feed the cats.

gets off from work at five, goes to store to pick up SOMETHING for dinner, because she hates to cook....straightens the house, walks the dog, eats, showers from work and helps kids with homework....

she is grossed out by all things raw, even touching it and i know vegetarians and vegans on this board who manage to bring themselves to touch raw....i'm just throwing that in here.

the only way i could see converting her is by demonstrating....handing out pamphlets, to me, is too vague....and it's just words on a page....but showing someong how long it takes, let's say to prepare a week's worth of food, and then feed an actual meal to a raw fed dog who looks and acts glorious....

i think that's the impact needed.

on the other hand...until i finally figured it out, i never thought it was the kibble making my dogs die young, and look terrible...it never occurred to me until i started studying human nutrition and then looked at may dogs and the light bulb went off.

i am not in good health nor do i work. but to not give my husband the best, to not give myself the best and to not give my dogs the best is to deny all of us the tools we need to live a good life..and if not a good life, at least a better one....

excellent thread....maybe you could get your peoples to allow you to do a demo of raw...and still have handbooks to give out to those interested, but i think seeing is believing.


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## JayJayisme (Aug 2, 2009)

magicre said:


> what do you guys do for breakfasts and lunches and dinners? regardless of whether or not you have kids, husbands, cranky grandparents, etc..


I hope this isn't a rhetorical question because I could go on about this forever. I'll try to keep it fairly brief though. I'll bet my way of eating will shock some of you though.

I've got Noah's Ark going on here. Me and the wife, two 9-month old twin boys, and two dogs. Not much time for anything, but I go out of my way to make sure ALL of us eat right.

I eat "Paleo style", i.e. the Paleolithic diet, sometimes called the "caveman diet". it is basically a lot of meat, vegetables of certain kinds, fresh fruits, some nuts, and NO grains, dairy, legumes (beans/peas), sugar, nightshades (tomatoes and bell peppers), very little starch, and no processed foods of any kind. 

Shopping alone is a challenge but we do it. My wife isn't Paleo, except by default since I'm the cook. :wink: But she also eats neolithic foods like dairy, rice, and wheat. I eat this way because I have health problems, and this way of eating has fixed a lot of problems that modern medicine failed to solve (even after over 20 years of trying).

My kids are now eating some solid foods, mostly pureed veggies, and now pastured, pureed chicken. My wife was never able to breastfeed them 100%. With twins, if you have any lactation issues, you have to supplement with formula. But commercial formula is crap. It has more sugar, ounce-per-ounce, than Coke. So I make their formula, every day (sometimes twice a day) using the recipe from the Weston A. Price Foundation. It has around 15 ingredients and is very time consuming to make but I take no shortcuts with my babies after the lifetime of health issues I've suffered from, many of which point straight at the typical crap in the modern diet.

We also make all their food from fresh, organic produce. The only exception is I feed them pureed prunes from the baby food aisle and organic rice cereal. But we make everything else.

My typical breakfast is four (yes 4) pastured eggs fried in tallow or lard, plus bacon or home made breakfast sausage, or sometimes a pork chop or steak. It's all about protein at breakfast. I also sometimes add fruit, but never before a 1/2 hour or more after I eat the protein. I drink black coffee too, which isn't Paleo but considered fairly inert.

For lunch I eat meat and vegetables. That's it. Same for dinner, some sort of meat and some sort of "paleo legal" vegetable (no potatoes or heavy starches), usually root vegetables and/or leafy greens. I usually either grill the meat, or sautee it in some sort of animal fat. If I sautee it, I then sautee the vegetables in that left-over fat to deglaze the skillet and mop up all the goodness. If it's poultry, its either grilled or roasted. I try to eat some pastured or grass fed meat but I can't afford it every day so we eat both supermarket meat and organic, pasture raised meat. The babies get only the good stuff though, for now.

Sounds disgusting, right? Well I eat as much as I want. I never miss a meal and I don't count calories. I eat until I'm full. I've lost a lot of weight, lowered my blood pressure (when all the medications failed to do so), lowered my triglycerides, and generally improved nearly every aspect of my health. 

Praise be to saturated fat!

You all know how I feed my dogs. They are cavedogs! :biggrin1: Raw meaty bones and some organs. That's it. They too eat mostly supermarket meat but I try to give them grass fed beef or bison every now and then. 

Does all of this take a crazy amount of time? Yes. Is it worth it? For me, yes. Our modern diets are killing us, humans and dogs. Sugar (fructose), vegetable oils (PUFAs), soy, carbohydrates, etc. all adds up to epidemic levels of obesity, heart disease, metabolic disorders (hypoglycemia, diabetes and others), and all sorts of other issues. I'm too old to completely reverse the damage in my own body. All I can hope for is to solve some of the worst problems and to have as high a quality of life as possible considering how much I've lost. But for my dogs and kids, they will be miles ahead as they get older by not having been exposed to the crap most people eat.


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

believe it or not, jay, i wasn't being rhetorical....and i agree with the paleo diet....and since i'm the cook, well....hubby eats that way, too....although i do add some carbs for him....he just can't do meat and veggie only....

even i have some modifications.....i do not eat processed foods of any kind, like bacon or sausage....and i do use olive oil, unless i've taken the time to render my own fat, like chicken fat.....

if i stay on this way of eating, i lose weight. if i don't, i can't put my rings on. i am missing so many organs, that, being svelte is merely a wisp of a dream, but i now know that if i stick to this style of eating, i feel better and i stay as healthy as i'm going to be.

and, it takes quite a bit of time to eat this way.....winter is a little easier, because i make one pot dishes....and soups..and i can freeze them for later dates....my only concession is beans....for chili...

85% per cent of my dog's meals are red meat.....we are constantly shopping ahead, looking for deals.....and we have a co op......which can take up much time...with pick ups when i could do those....

i just cannot imagine anyone having children and not researching what's best for them food wise.....i can't imagine anyone having horses, dogs, cats..any domesticated animal, without researching the best way to feed...

and i say that with hypocrisy in my heart that i am now getting rid of.....because i used to be the same exact way...

but what makes us change so drastically...there are no crackers, no starches, no soy, no sugar, and any number of foods in this house EVER. but it's not the way it used to be.

hell, the dogs used to eat nutro, which at the time, WAS a premium food....

it was only because bubba was a nightmarish, abused pug, that sent me running to boards and i tripped over this raw thing. 

i'm a doctor and i never thought of it.....i fed my husband a paleo sort of eating style before i ever thought of raw....that's what i'm asking people...what do you do for your spouse, your kids, your dogs....and what lit the bulb?


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## JayJayisme (Aug 2, 2009)

magicre said:


> i'm a doctor and i never thought of it.....i fed my husband a paleo sort of eating style before i ever thought of raw....that's what i'm asking people...what do you do for your spouse, your kids, your dogs....and what lit the bulb?


Ironically it was anger at my doctor and...wait for it...my dogs that lit the bulb for me.

I have battled health issues all my life and none of the "treatments" out of the AMA playbook are worth a tinker's dam for me. I've tried them all, exercised like mad, special diets, and I've been on every pharmaceutical product known to man for these conditions. All I ever end up with are side effects and an empty wallet. I've been patient but it gets old fast.

A few years ago, after a seemingly endless period of unsuccessful attempts by my endocrinologist at the time to treat my out-of-control BP and high cholesterol, he finally conceded that that the drugs didn't work very well at all and we had run out of things to try. So he suggested a low carb diet, the Sugar Buster's diet to be exact. Well, that was the first time I had ever been able to make a dent in these two chronic issues. My BP went down to the point that I was able to scale the meds back, and my cholesterol dropped enough that it made me realize that there was something to this carbohydrate thing.

Fast-forward a few years later, got married, gained weight, fell off the diet here and there, other health issues have cropped up, got dogs, had kids, went back on the diet, not working as well. Started feeding the dogs PMR, saw how well they do on it. Saw how surprised my vet was, especially with my smallest dog who was on death's doorstep when we adopted him from the local sHELLter. 

Then at the beginning of this year, all hell broke loose. The BP med I had been taking for several years just stopped working. It was the last one that worked of all the meds (probably ALL of them) I've taken. So my relatively new doctor (I had since moved to a different area) whips out his playbook, puts me on some drug I've already been on even though I told him it wouldn't work. He draws blood. Two weeks later he wags his finger at me for my outrageous cholesterol and triglyceride levels. I tell him my BP is still too high. So he prescribes another useless drug to go with the first useless drug all while he's giving me the "low fat diet" mantra. Well that pissed me off. I'm tired of being a guinea pig for big pharma, and I'm sick of doctors who still haven't figured out that dietary cholesterol has NOTHING to do with serum cholesterol. I've already done "low fat" and it did nothing for me except make me hungry.

So filled with anger, but having a clue that some of my issues are somehow metabolic related, and seeing how my dogs do so well on their "ancestral diet", I couldn't help but wonder, "What is the human equivalent to raw feeding for dogs? What is our 'ancestral diet'?"

Well, that lead me to Paleo and right away, a light went off and it all made sense. All the pieces fit together. Having already been on a low carb diet, it was a totally natural transition for me. And so far, it has changed my life.

So at the end of the day, it was my dogs that lit the bulb for me.


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## BrownieM (Aug 30, 2010)

CavePaws said:


> It does NOT take a lot of time. Maybe a bit of thought, maybe a tiny bit of prep work, but come on people it's not like going to the freezer to get out your dogs food for the day is running, biking, and swimming a triathalon. Seriously, I'm absolutely sure these people spend some amount of time off of work...Why can't you take the 5 minutes out of your day to feed your dog?! I'm so sorry there isn't a scoop and a bag involved here. :| :|


Wellllll.....I'm not going to lie, IMO it _does_ take a lot more time than anything "processed". More time than I'd like - but it is worth it. The time consuming part is every Sunday night when I go down to my chest freezer and pull out 7 days worth of food for Henry and Millie. It takes me so much time possibly because I am so particular, but I cannot help that about myself, LOL. 

Every Sunday night, I root through my freezer, find the correct type of food for each dog for each meal they will need all week. (ie. - bone-in and boneless pieces to follow my routine of bone-in, boneless, boneless, boneless, bone-in). Then I grab the appropriate amount of liver and kidney for them. After this, I label each baggie - "monday am Henry, monday pm Henry" and so forth. This does take me about 20-25 min. each Sunday. Not a lot of time in the grand scheme of things, and totally worth it, but it IS time consuming and it IS frustrating sometimes.

It would help if I could do this MONTHLY, and just keep the other 3 weeks of food in the freezer in bigger weekly containers. One day, when I am feeling like being organized, I will do this. 

Then, there's the thawing of meat and bagging when necessary. This part really gets me LOL. 

But, again, worth it for me. Although...I do daydream about scooping food from a bag. Although, I can't stand the poop. As you all know, Tiger is eating a partial kibble diet, and the kibble portion keeps decreasing b/c I can't stand those poops. He hasn't even had kibble in a couple of days because I am addicted to the results of raw.

And - when it actually comes to serving - it takes more time to serve kibble in the morning to Tiger than to serve raw to Henry and Millie. This is because I add warm water to his kibble, canned Tripett and some pre-made raw medallions. When I feed Millie and Henry, I just plop their raw chunks on a towel outside. It would be faster if all 3 dogs at raw. If you consider the time I spend doctoring up his kibble each day, it probably is equal to the 20-25 minutes I spend weekly preparing the other dogs' PMR on Sunday nights.


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

brownie, you're not wrong. it DOES take longer.....i think the point is, does it take so MUCH longer that the results are not worth every moment?

and i already know your answer....because you wouldn't do it if you thought those extra moments weren't worth it....none of us would...

but how do you argue with pristine blood panels and coats that are so lustrous as to blind us, etc, etc,....we can't....at least i can't.

thing is, when i fed kibble and went onto kibble forums, we'd spend a gadzillion hours breaking down the ingredients and what food had something not suitable and was there a kibble that did...and that's when the light bulb went off for me, which is why i started to home cook...there WAS no kibble that had suitable ingredients...

and, let me tell you...whenever i think doing raw is tedious, i think back to the days when i made a months' worth of food for my dogs...oy vey.

unlike jay, i didn't make the connection between a protein/fat diet for dogs and a protein/fat diet for humans....because of the dogs....i wish now i had...

i was already studying nutrition for humans..and since it involved veggies....it seemed okay for the dogs..it was grains that were evil....and then one day, i saw raw forum..and wandered in and never looked back...

but i will never tell people that it takes no time at all....i have to plan the proteins for them, figure what we can afford that week, look to see what the co op is offering, how much room do i have in my freezers, who is willing to split a case.....and then make time to break up 40 or 60 pound cases of whatever....

the only thing i did to make my life easier was to always have drumsticks around for poo stability and then i have three or four proteins out defrosted and another three or four proteins in the freezer, ready to come out....i cube their organs and serve them as treats for their walk....

so it's certainly not 'throw your dog a bone'...and be done with it..LOL

but, when i break it down...you're right...it's not really more than 20-25 minutes per week...surely our dogs are worth that....what bugs me is why everyone doesn't see that...


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## SerenityFL (Sep 28, 2010)

magicre: I will tell you that if it weren't for two vets in the past, I might not have considered raw. Believe it or not. One vet I really liked because he worked at a spay/neuter clinic where you could go and get your pets their vaccinations as well. He did not charge exorbitant prices, he seemed to really actually care about animals. He would not see sick pets, he would see healthy pets, give them a basic exam, give them their innoculations and spay or neuter them. And he was very upfront, matter of fact and would tell you, "This is bad that you are doing, this is good that you are doing."

When my dog Pandora was spayed, I went to pick her up and take her home. She was still bouncing around like a lunatic like nothing happened. (What a difference between her and Princess Sakari...sheesh.) I asked the vet, "I thought getting her spayed would help calm her down!" He replied, "You didn't ask for a lobotomy." Since then, I valued what he said.

He told me for the cats to feed them dry food to help with tartar. He told me with dogs, to feed them raw bones. He said, "Bones are nature's toothbrush, you don't need to buy those dog toothbrushes, it's a waste of money." Pandora didn't get raw food but she got the raw bone every once in awhile.

The second vet I actually worked for a couple of months. He used to have his own made up copies of what to feed certain pets. He was an exotic pet and bird vet and he was constantly battling his clients on what they fed their pets. I had rats at the time and a guinea pig and it was through him that I found out that crap you get at the pet store, all those seeds and things, he said, "It's like feeding your child candy for dinner every night." (Where I got that quote I've used on this forum.) He had food/diets for all sorts of animals.

He told me that all the pet food out there was utter crap. Seriously. He said none of it was good for our cats and dogs. He said I may as well feed them the leather from the bottom of my shoe. He said "IF you are going to feed your cats that cat food, at least get Alley Cat. It's the best you can find." He also said that there was no difference between Friskies and Iams so why spend the money on things like Iams. (Hence why I never went to any "premium" kibble.) I would always look for food that had meat as the first two ingredients. Not rice, not wheat, not corn. It had to be a meat product. 

So yes, I was somewhat aware of what to feed the pets. I don't think either of them ever said to feed the animals totally raw although they could have and I didn't remember it. But both of them basically said that the pet food at stores was total crap.

Fast forward to last year, my older cat was getting worse and it was bothering me immensely. I got on the internet and started looking around for ways to help her out. I found information on raw. I eventually found this place. I never looked back.

So...that is why I was so open to feeding raw because of those things those two vets said. Sometimes, vets are helpful when it comes to nutrition.


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

that is an awesome story, serenity....i was oblivious to raw....i never visited forums.....my dogs were fairly healthy, albeit getting older...they had no gastric upsets....they were seemingly happy and healthy.....

it wasn't until we got bubba, the uber abused dog who would sleep on my husband's lap and pee...who had entropion and other eye problems, who was scared of aluminum foil.....i'd never had a dog like this..and that's when i started looking at pug forums...there was this girl, named mandy pug....and against all odds, she never wavered in her opinion of raw fed dogs....she had pugs, young pugs and they were gorgeous....and calm...
key word calm..and then there was curbside prophet and rawfeddogs ...and between the three of them....their opinions were so strong, they believed in them so deeply, i had no choice but to sit up and listen...and, then the fact that rawfeddogs was banned from the forum, made me read every post he ever wrote...

now i knew there was a connection for i had also found out about nutro pet food and what it has in it that helped shorten my dogs' lives...i would testify to it....so i started to home cook until i could read all of these posts...and then one day, i who am not shy at all, wrote to our bill...who wrote me back a kind but no nonsense letter saying, if you do it my way, your dogs will be fine. if you do it your way, you will suffer the fires of hell.

he didn't say it that way, but i am a drama queen...and so it started and I'VE never looked back.

and now i can't understand why everyone doesn't do it....why would anyone want to put their animals down early...why anyone would want to watch their dogs suffer from heartburn and stomach problems and intestinal problems for life....why? i don't get it....and i never will...

i wish i had had vets like yours, serenity..this may well have happened years ago..but it's here now and that's all i have control over...here and now.


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## monkeys23 (Dec 8, 2010)

I'm am really intrigued by this paleo diet thing. Are there any online resources you would recommend where I could read more about it?
I wonder if the reason I'm always starving and carrying a random extra 5lbs is because of the carbs...


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

monkeys23 said:


> I'm am really intrigued by this paleo diet thing. Are there any online resources you would recommend where I could read more about it?
> I wonder if the reason I'm always starving and carrying a random extra 5lbs is because of the carbs...


jayjayisme probably knows more about it, since mine is probably so modified that it probably isn't paleo.

what we do, though is eat veggies, unlimited quantities....fruit ...limited quantities and only in the a.m. when energy is more needed by circadian rhythm...the human body tends to slow down after 2-4 p.m.....meat and fish...rare and fatty...cooked in fat....humans, too, need fat. we are not so different than dogs LOL...except we can have veggies and don't need grains.

no starches, which means rice, potatoes, processed foods, and anything down the middle aisles, no tortilla, no wraps, no bread, etc....
no processed lunch meats, no bacon, sausage, etc...no flour at all. it has to look like it did when it was picked or born.

you can pretty much eat as much as you want and you will not only lose weight, you'll feel better..it doesn't take as much time as everyone thinks....but that's my version.

i think jayjayisme's version is different and there are all kinds of books and articles on the net. just type in paleolithic diet.


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## Cain (Feb 14, 2011)

magicre said:


> jayjayisme probably knows more about it, since mine is probably so modified that it probably isn't paleo.
> 
> what we do, though is eat veggies, unlimited quantities....fruit ...limited quantities and only in the a.m. when energy is more needed by circadian rhythm...the human body tends to slow down after 2-4 p.m.....meat and fish...rare and fatty...cooked in fat....humans, too, need fat. we are not so different than dogs LOL...except we can have veggies and don't need grains.
> 
> ...


Limiting carbs is the easiest way to reduce calories in your daily nutrition. Though carbs, especially low GI ones are not the enemy. They must be consumed in moderation with higher amounts of protein in one's diet, and moderate inclusion of monosaturated fats from nuts, and oils. Though eating after a certain time of the day really does not have that dramatic impact on one's body composition as some make it out to be. The law of thermodynamics does hold merit, and eating a sweet potato at 10 p.m. doesn't mean your body will automatically store the glycogen as fat. But if your glycogen was topped off for the day then yes, it would be stored as fat.


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

Cain said:


> Limiting carbs is the easiest way to reduce calories in your daily nutrition. Though carbs, especially low GI ones are not the enemy. They must be consumed in moderation with higher amounts of protein in one's diet, and moderate inclusion of monosaturated fats from nuts, and oils. Though eating after a certain time of the day really does not have that dramatic impact on one's body composition as some make it out to be. The law of thermodynamics does hold merit, and eating a sweet potato at 10 p.m. doesn't mean your body will automatically store the glycogen as fat. But if your glycogen was topped off for the day then yes, it would be stored as fat.


in my world, eliminating starches is what works for me....if i recall, potatoes came into popularity during times of famine....we are no longer in times of famine.

just because something doesn't cause your insulin to spike doesn't make it a necessary food item for your body, such as sweet potatoes and brown rice.....

but again, whatever works...you're right, though, i forgot nuts....yum.

if starches are un necessary, then it doesn't matter what time of day you eat it...your body might try to use it first...but we as humans don't necessarily eat carbs for brekkie, then work out, then come home and eat protein and fat....that is a whole different lifestyle....

when i weight lifted, there was a certain order to how i ate...to give me maximum energy to lift those weights and do my cardio....but after that, it was pure protein and fat....

i don't do the exercising i used to do, which means i don't need that fast release from carbs....plus, there is a new movement amongst body builders that no longer includes the large amount of starches it used to.....

but, as i said before, whatever works for you....and whatever you believe is true....

i believe humans are not herbivores, therefore no grains, nor is it necessary for us to ingest starches unless it is during times of famine.


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## CavePaws (Jan 25, 2011)

Re and Jayjay, you are inspiring me more and more to eat more healthily. :] Thanks for taking the time to post what you guys do for yourselves nutritionally. It's got my brain ticking.


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## Cain (Feb 14, 2011)

magicre said:


> in my world, eliminating starches is what works for me....if i recall, potatoes came into popularity during times of famine....we are no longer in times of famine.
> 
> just because something doesn't cause your insulin to spike doesn't make it a necessary food item for your body, such as sweet potatoes and brown rice.....
> 
> ...


I never said starches were necessary, but as you said with weight lifting to optimize muscle growth, carbohydrates are optimal to refill glycogen stores. But yes, if you aren't heavily active, starches are not required, but some carbohydrates are necessary, but a very limited amount. You don't need to be in ketosis 24/7. Humans are not herbivores, but omnivores, and grains do fall under that category. I'm not stating what I believe in, but rather what is true.  

And everyone is different, as what will work for me, may not work for you. Same principle apply to our beloved pets.


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## mischiefgrrl (Oct 28, 2010)

For the people with "time limitations" I always suggest pre-packaged raw. I think it's a start and maybe if they see improvements on that they'll start looking into PMR. I don't think a single person has listened to me and done it that was hesitant though. I've converted one person to PMR and she is thrilled with it.

On diet and nutrition for humans, this has always been a big thing for me. I was the kid who preferred fresh green beans over candy. Being a single mom on a budget that was sometimes $15 a week for groceries, I learned to cook and balance out a meal. 

I believe that dogs and cats are designed to eat raw meat only as that is what they would be doing in the wild. Humans, I'm not so convinced are supposed to eat meat at all. I think the raw diet is best for all living beings though I'm not very good at keeping to it myself. I eat 2-3 raw plant based meals a day but admit I do still like my cooked foods for dinner.


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

Cain said:


> I never said starches were necessary, but as you said with weight lifting to optimize muscle growth, carbohydrates are optimal to refill glycogen stores. But yes, if you aren't heavily active, starches are not required, but some carbohydrates are necessary, but a very limited amount. You don't need to be in ketosis 24/7. Humans are not herbivores, but omnivores, and grains do fall under that category. I'm not stating what I believe in, but rather what is true.
> 
> And everyone is different, as what will work for me, may not work for you. Same principle apply to our beloved pets.


i should clarify....well, we will agree to disagree about grains. to me, it matters not what category they fall into, processed flour is un necessary to our lives.

it's not that carbs or starches are the enemies, and this is what i wanted to clarify....it's how we, as humans, eat them..starches are so very dense...and made to last, that if we ate a sweet potatoe as a meal, we'd be fine, but we don't do that. we eat it as a side.

i eat plant matter. those are carbs. i eat quite a bit of plant matter. i'm talking about starchy carbs. period. 

i don't live in ketosis. not with the huge salad or hot veggies i eat. LOL

what makes us fat and gives us diabetes is soda and processed food. period. 

the rest can be fit into any diet of anyone's choice...not eating starches is my choice....



and now i return me to my favourite network. dogs.


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

mischiefgrrl said:


> For the people with "time limitations" I always suggest pre-packaged raw. I think it's a start and maybe if they see improvements on that they'll start looking into PMR. I don't think a single person has listened to me and done it that was hesitant though. I've converted one person to PMR and she is thrilled with it.
> 
> On diet and nutrition for humans, this has always been a big thing for me. I was the kid who preferred fresh green beans over candy. Being a single mom on a budget that was sometimes $15 a week for groceries, I learned to cook and balance out a meal.
> 
> I believe that dogs and cats are designed to eat raw meat only as that is what they would be doing in the wild. Humans, I'm not so convinced are supposed to eat meat at all. I think the raw diet is best for all living beings though I'm not very good at keeping to it myself. I eat 2-3 raw plant based meals a day but admit I do still like my cooked foods for dinner.


cooked or fresh, at least you're eating greens, not candy..LOL

as far as prepackaged raw goes for those with those so called time limitations....i think, for me, the only ones i can recommend are ones that have the protein and the ground bone in it...primal, for instance, has chubs of sardine slurry and that's it....bones and organs included...

but when they start adding stuff to the pre packaged, then it is better than kibble, but not by much.....i see what you're saying


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## Cain (Feb 14, 2011)

magicre said:


> i should clarify....well, we will agree to disagree about grains. to me, it matters not what category they fall into, processed flour is un necessary to our lives.
> 
> it's not that carbs or starches are the enemies, and this is what i wanted to clarify....it's how we, as humans, eat them..starches are so very dense...and made to last, that if we ate a sweet potatoe as a meal, we'd be fine, but we don't do that. we eat it as a side.
> 
> ...


I agree, carbs are vital to humans, I think we both agree on that. And everything you stated is what the masses are unfortunately ignorant about. The sad thing is that so many people can't even understand those basic principles, so how on earth would they even understand the first thing about canine nutrition? 

Companies are slowly phasing out high fructose corn syrup from processed foods, I wish the same could be done with corn in our dog's food. 

Hell even the premade raw has unnecessary ingredients, but at least that's better then grain laden kibble.


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

Cain said:


> I agree, carbs are vital to humans, I think we both agree on that. And everything you stated is what the masses are unfortunately ignorant about. The sad thing is that so many people can't even understand those basic principles, so how on earth would they even understand the first thing about canine nutrition?
> 
> Companies are slowly phasing out high fructose corn syrup from processed foods, I wish the same could be done with corn in our dog's food.
> 
> Hell even the premade raw has unnecessary ingredients, but at least that's better then grain laden kibble.


add the soy that is genetically modified and i'll make you a salad and a big ole steak....it's refreshing to talk with someone who might not be in my corner but is, at least, in the same universe

humans are considered to be higher in the food chain; yet we are treated like dogs...and neither is acceptable.


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## cprcheetah (Jul 14, 2010)

Not having time is a major cop out. I have been working 2 full time jobs for the past few months, leaving at 5am and getting home at 12am some days. I don't have a lot of spare time. My dogs are still Raw fed, I pull meals out of the freezer 2-3 days at a time and then either I feed or my hubby feeds depending on my schedule when we get home. I make their meals up every 3-4 weeks, and label as needed. It takes me maybe 1-2 hours to chop and separate everything, and that is with making 2oz portion sizes for my 4# chi.

As for the human diet, my hubby and I virtually eliminated all grains (we still eat brown rice on occasion) in August or last year, he has lost about 6 pant sizes, over 100#, is no longer bloated & gassy from the grains etc, and isn't in constant joint pain from the inflammation the grains/carbs cause. He also has reversed fatty liver disease, and is in good control of his diabetes with a small dose of glucophage each day. He hasn't needed insulin at all. If it has that effect on us, what effect does it have on our dogs/cats who aren't designed to eat them period?


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