# Flea Control on Raw



## Kitkat771 (Mar 31, 2012)

What do you use for flea control? Do you use natural methods or buy the stuff from the vet? I would prefer to use natural methods if they work...but don't know which ones actually work. I need to get them started on it as we didn't have a cold enough winter to kill fleas. Also, would like to use something for my cat. My cat goes in the back yard with my dogs. He doesn't usually leave the yard, but will sometimes go hang out on the front porch.


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## creek817 (Feb 18, 2012)

I tried using sulphur on our dogs for awhile, but infortunately it didn't seem to work. I have Dobby on pills right now, because Oscar has fleas (my b/f doesn't want to spend the money on the pills for him! grrr) that we can't get rid of, and they were spreading to Dobby. The pills work GREAT. Even with Oscar's fleas, Dobby never has any on him. But I absolutely hate giving him something so chemically. I just read yesterday I think that You can mix Apple Cider Vinegar with water (50/50), and I think they also said they sometimes added some VERY finely chopped garlic into the water and sprayed it on the dogs for fleas. I'm thinking I might try that for Oscar - in fact, you've motvated me! I will go looking for a spray bottle now, and try to do that for him today! If it works, I'll stop Dobby's pills for sure!

Good luck!


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## shellbell (Sep 24, 2011)

I use Bug Off Garlic, and I spray my dogs with some Avon Skin-So-Soft bath oil diluted with water about once a week.


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## Sheltielover25 (Jan 18, 2011)

I would never use a pesticide on my animals. Can you imagine how hard it must on the organs month after month of being poisoned? Not only are people giving them flea toxins, a lot of the time they're giving another poison to them monthly for heart worms... It's truly criminal in my opinion.

With that, we use a few natural things. First off, I believe diet is most important and since this is in the raw forum, I take it that part is covered. We add apple cider vinegar to their filtered only water -- not 50/50 though or they'd never touch it! I usually put about a cap full in a regular sized bowl. I also feed it to mine everyday with kefir or you could put it over their food or whatever. 

We also use a neem oil mixture weekly -- research neem oil, find organic neem oil only, and research how to dissolve and apply -- or if you're interested, I'll share what I do to apply it.

We also use Diatmacious Earth ALL over the yard -front and back- and I feed it to them daily and apply it to their coats once a week. Every weekend we treat the yard again if it's rained, bath the dogs with the neem oil mixture, spray diluted white vinegar on them, and then once dried apply the DE. It's worked very well for us and most people around us have fleas, but we don't. This kept us from getting fleas all summer last year, too. 

All three things are affordable and serve multiple functions so you get to knock out many birds with one stone.

Good luck!


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## Sheltielover25 (Jan 18, 2011)

I would never use a pesticide on my animals. Can you imagine how hard it must on the organs month after month of being poisoned? Not only are people giving them flea toxins, a lot of the time they're giving another poison to them monthly for heart worms... It's truly criminal in my opinion.

With that, we use a few natural things. First off, I believe diet is most important and since this is in the raw forum, I take it that part is covered. We add apple cider vinegar to their water -- not 50/50 though or they'd never touch it! I usually put about a cap full in a regular sized bowl. I also feed it to mine everyday with kefir or you could put it over their food or whatever. 

We also use a neem oil mixture weekly -- research neem oil, find organic neem oil only, and research how to dissolve and apply -- or if you're interested, I'll share what I do to apply it.

We also use Diatmacious Earth ALL over the yard -front and back- and I feed it to them daily and apply it to their coats once a week. Every weekend we treat the yard again if it's rained, bath the dogs with the neem oil mixture, spray diluted white vinegar on them, and then once dried apply the DE. It's worked very well for us and most people around us have fleas, but we don't. This kept us from getting fleas all summer last year, too. 

All three things are affordable and serve multiple functions so you get to knock out many birds with one stone.

Good luck!


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## BeagleCountry (Jan 20, 2012)

I plan to repeat the same method as used 5-7 years ago when there was a flea epidemic due to similar weather conditions. There were 7 dogs inside my home at the time. All dogs were bathed in their regular shampoo at the sight of the first flea. This suffocates/drowns the fleas. All flooring was thoroughly vacuumed and moped. Contents of the empty vacuum canister and bag were left outside. Crate mats and bedding (mine) were washed in the warmest water possible. Keep the lawn grass mowed as short as possible. Do not allow the dog to walk on the grass near a vet clinic. People are taking their dogs there for flea treatment. Their fleas fall off in the grass. Sick dogs have also peed and pooped on the grass.


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## Kitkat771 (Mar 31, 2012)

You mentioned heart worm prevention being toxic too. What do you do to prevent heart worms? I bought some nematodes at the garden store today which I was told kills fleas and some other insects. It says it's best to apply at sunset so I'll do that this evening. I also vacuumed and cleaned all bedding in hot water..mine since my dogs sleep with me. 
I will look into that organic neem oil. I've used DE in the past and didn't seem to work for us. We had a bad flea infestation and it took a long time to get rid of them. 
Luckly we moved and my current house does not have any carpet and only has hardwood floors. It's easier to manage without carpet. I don't know for sure if my dogs have fleas, but I noticed them itching a lot last night. I don't see any on them, but it's hard to see with them being black.


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## Kitkat771 (Mar 31, 2012)

Someone mentioned brewers yeast for flea control...is this safe for dogs and cats? What about garlic?


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## Sheltielover25 (Jan 18, 2011)

Kitkat771 said:


> You mentioned heart worm prevention being toxic too. What do you do to prevent heart worms? I bought some nematodes at the garden store today which I was told kills fleas and some other insects. It says it's best to apply at sunset so I'll do that this evening. I also vacuumed and cleaned all bedding in hot water..mine since my dogs sleep with me.
> I will look into that organic neem oil. I've used DE in the past and didn't seem to work for us. We had a bad flea infestation and it took a long time to get rid of them.
> Luckly we moved and my current house does not have any carpet and only has hardwood floors. It's easier to manage without carpet. I don't know for sure if my dogs have fleas, but I noticed them itching a lot last night. I don't see any on them, but it's hard to see with them being black.


Ahhh Nematodes kill the bees and the lady bugs. I don't know if I could bring myself to use something that killed off such important (bees) creatures! We're fostering two black puppies -- so I know what you mean about being hard to see! Yay for no carpet! We have cement floors and it's wonderful!

As far as heart worms, I don't do anything other than preventative measures like feeding a raw diet and giving them the foundation for having a fabulous immune system. I allow them to eat only unprocessed, chemical-free food and also don't vaccinate allowing their immune system to be optimal! Most dogs who get heart worms have had hard lives with poor nutrition and have a low immune system to boot. I've looked into the issue and find it very hard to find cases of healthy, non-immune compromised dogs having heart worms. I have a friend who has over 20 dogs and has had more all throughout life and she has never used heart worm medicine(Nor does she chemicals for fleas/doesn't vaccinate) I'm more scared of the medicine, than I am of heart worms. I test them every sixth months as a safety measure, but will probably eliminate that at some point as I feel it's more for me than it is them.


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## Kitkat771 (Mar 31, 2012)

You don't vaccinate at all or just not beyond the puppy vaccines? I gave my dogs the puppy series shots. I also gave them a rabbies vaccination when they were a year old. I hadn't decided if I'd give them another rabbies vaccination or not. I took Miley to puppy classes when she was itty bitty. They offered nutrition classes and health classes etc. They told me about dogs being over vaccinated and the dangers of that etc. In Texas where I live they require rabbies vaccinations every 3 years, but my city requires them annually. I was told the city will not enforce their law due to the state law. 

I previously gave them heart worm preventative in the summer months, but not the winter months. I've never used the toxic flea stuff, but had used Capstar a few times.


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## twotonelover (Jan 10, 2011)

I give Rosey ACV 3x a week and also give her Sentry Natural Defense. Haven't had any issues  I've only seen a flea here and there, but I work at an animal shelter so its likely I brought them home myself haha

I've heard good things about Flea Free, but I've never personally used it. It might be worth checking out?


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## Sheltielover25 (Jan 18, 2011)

Kitkat771 said:


> You don't vaccinate at all or just not beyond the puppy vaccines? I gave my dogs the puppy series shots. I also gave them a rabbies vaccination when they were a year old. I hadn't decided if I'd give them another rabbies vaccination or not. I took Miley to puppy classes when she was itty bitty. They offered nutrition classes and health classes etc. They told me about dogs being over vaccinated and the dangers of that etc. In Texas where I live they require rabbies vaccinations every 3 years, but my city requires them annually. I was told the city will not enforce their law due to the state law.
> 
> I previously gave them heart worm preventative in the summer months, but not the winter months. I've never used the toxic flea stuff, but had used Capstar a few times.


Before I knew better, I did vaccinate them as puppies, but no, from here on out I'll never let another vaccine enter my animals, myself, or future child's system! I'm personally not comfortable putting formaldehyde, mercury, aborted fetuses and other horrible things into any living things body. If they "clean" the vaccines and remove the toxins, I'll re-evaluate. 

How awesome they had a class like that! I think that's awesome. 

Rabies is required here, but we just don't take them to dog parks and of course no groomer/boarding. It's funny, I've never vaccinated my cat and she's my oldest and healthiest animal! Happy to hear you only do the heart worm during summer months, I find it so silly when people do it year-round. even when I explain to them while it's not necessary, they STILL do it. Weird.


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## Liz (Sep 27, 2010)

Ah Sheltielover, a soul mate. No one hear has been vaccinated in over eight years and we have had no disease. Before we stopped vaccinating we had two rounds of parvo and kennel cough seemed constant and don't get me started on the number of pup who all of a sudden developed "allergies" or motion sickness" etc. My dogs are so healthy now and we have some totally raw fed and never ever vaccinated youngsters who will be our next generation of show/breeding dogs and they are so lovely and healthy. :tongue1:


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## Sheltielover25 (Jan 18, 2011)

Liz said:


> Ah Sheltielover, a soul mate. No one hear has been vaccinated in over eight years and we have had no disease. Before we stopped vaccinating we had two rounds of parvo and kennel cough seemed constant and don't get me started on the number of pup who all of a sudden developed "allergies" or motion sickness" etc. My dogs are so healthy now and we have some totally raw fed and never ever vaccinated youngsters who will be our next generation of show/breeding dogs and they are so lovely and healthy. :tongue1:


I want one of those youngsters! Our next dog (in many years -ha!) we get is going to be purchased from an all-natural, no vaccine breeder like you as even if the dog cost upfront, the health savings would be make up for it quickly. I read a few dog forums and so many allergies and other things like you mentioned going around and I just feel so bad for the dogs and want to tel the owners to stop poisoning them! We have dogs dying of liver failure at young ages. So many immune compromised dogs out there... I listed the ingredients in vaccines on a thread once and people made it seem like, eh what's the big deal? 

It's really scary how much people believe the ones in white coats.... too bad they've never looked into whose the one paying for those white coated people's text books and so on and realize how twisted it it...sigh. Two of mine have vaccine damage and it's just awful.


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## meggels (May 30, 2010)

I would love to get both dogs off of HW meds but the paranoia is crazy


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## RCTRIPLEFRESH5 (Feb 11, 2010)

im about to order hguard plus sigh


meggels said:


> I would love to get both dogs off of HW meds but the paranoia is crazy


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## shellbell (Sep 24, 2011)

I will ALWAYS give monthly HW preventative. Never anything topical though.


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## RCTRIPLEFRESH5 (Feb 11, 2010)

shellbell said:


> I will ALWAYS give monthly HW preventative. Never anything topical though.


i give it every 2 months.


they make pill form flea meds since you are against topical
i think vaccinations for puppies and rabies are fine....as long as you have a high meat diet, don;t give flea meds, and give bi monthly hw. also neutering should be done after maturity..and at tht point why bother?spaying is a diff story.


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## meggels (May 30, 2010)

Last year, I found a few fleas on Abbie. I think it was two all together but it freaked me out. First time I'd ever found anything on a dog of mine. I use Advantix on her once a month. Argh.


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## MollyWoppy (Mar 19, 2010)

I do the heartworm too, there are too many mosquito's round here and too many dogs suffering from heartworm so I'm not comfortable risking it. Some poor bloke about 30 miles from here contracted heartworm himself a couple of years ago.
However, no flea meds, ever. Mol doesn't seem to attract them or ticks at all, I have no idea why. I run a flea comb over both her and the kitten a couple of times a week, and have never seen a flea. Touch wood!


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## Sheltielover25 (Jan 18, 2011)

Liz said:


> Ah Sheltielover, a soul mate. No one hear has been vaccinated in over eight years and we have had no disease. Before we stopped vaccinating we had two rounds of parvo and kennel cough seemed constant and don't get me started on the number of pup who all of a sudden developed "allergies" or motion sickness" etc. My dogs are so healthy now and we have some totally raw fed and never ever vaccinated youngsters who will be our next generation of show/breeding dogs and they are so lovely and healthy. :tongue1:


Liz, do you use heart worm medicine?


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## meggels (May 30, 2010)

MollyWoppy said:


> I do the heartworm too, there are too many mosquito's round here and too many dogs suffering from heartworm so I'm not comfortable risking it. Some poor bloke about 30 miles from here contracted heartworm himself a couple of years ago.
> However, no flea meds, ever. Mol doesn't seem to attract them or ticks at all, I have no idea why. I run a flea comb over both her and the kitten a couple of times a week, and have never seen a flea. Touch wood!



She must have some sort of flea kryptonite! I've heard the fleas in FL are insane!


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## Liz (Sep 27, 2010)

Never, ever have I used heart worm on any of my dogs. If I lived in a higher incidence state like or Florida I might consider nosodes for a preventative as people I know have you them and are very satisfied. I have lost dog due to medications, vaccines and other chemicals and eight years ago committed to cleaning up our acts. I have lost puppies who were up to date on parvo vaccines to parvo - the whole litter. I was devastated. We have had to put to sleep a youngster from vaccine damage leading to cancer in the injection sites that quickly spread, and I have had numerous pups I had planned to keep suddenly not turn out once vaccines and topicals were introduced. This has not happened since removing as many toxins as possible from their enviornment. I believe my dogs and my family are better off for all the changes. We can believe whatever we want but I have seen the damage one vaccine and one heart worm preventative can do - and have seen it this year on pups I have placed. So nope - as long as I am in charge of my babies no vaccines, no topicals, no heart worm preventative, anti biotics only if all else has failed, even cleansers and lawn treatments are holistic and as enviornmentally safe as possible. Sorry, I am off my sop box now. Wow, RE - you really have to take away my box I seem to be hopping up on it often lately.  And no - before a fight starts I don't look down or think I am better than anyone who does any of these things I have just researched and learned a lot through experience and know what I want for my pets and family.


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## meggels (May 30, 2010)

I personally love hearing about this kind of stuff Liz. I mean when you think about it, these chemicals CANT be good for the dogs. I took both dogs off HW meds for the winter but like I said, the paranoia is just so strong related to heartworm....I'm too scared to do it long term 


And I strongly feel that Murph's bad reaction to the rabies vax 2 years ago has impaired his health. Before that he was very healthy.


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## Liz (Sep 27, 2010)

I am sorry to hear that. He might be eligible for a waiver though and that would be a good thing. Have you tried Thuja with him? You might also look into nosodes - it might just be enough comfort for you to transition from traditional preventatives.


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## Sheltielover25 (Jan 18, 2011)

Liz said:


> Never, ever have I used heart worm on any of my dogs. If I lived in a higher incidence state like or Florida I might consider nosodes for a preventative as people I know have you them and are very satisfied. I have lost dog due to medications, vaccines and other chemicals and eight years ago committed to cleaning up our acts. I have lost puppies who were up to date on parvo vaccines to parvo - the whole litter. I was devastated. We have had to put to sleep a youngster from vaccine damage leading to cancer in the injection sites that quickly spread, and I have had numerous pups I had planned to keep suddenly not turn out once vaccines and topicals were introduced. This has not happened since removing as many toxins as possible from their enviornment. I believe my dogs and my family are better off for all the changes. We can believe whatever we want but I have seen the damage one vaccine and one heart worm preventative can do - and have seen it this year on pups I have placed. So nope - as long as I am in charge of my babies no vaccines, no topicals, no heart worm preventative, anti biotics only if all else has failed, even cleansers and lawn treatments are holistic and as enviornmentally safe as possible. Sorry, I am off my sop box now. Wow, RE - you really have to take away my box I seem to be hopping up on it often lately.  And no - before a fight starts I don't look down or think I am better than anyone who does any of these things I have just researched and learned a lot through experience and know what I want for my pets and family.


Same here, Liz. I've got two puppies with neurological issues and their litter mates, who weren't vaccinated, don't have the same issues. I've seen them have neurological episodes due to flea and heart worm medicines. If you start researching vaccines, you'll never want to put on in your animals or your body again! My girlfriend was going to go to graduate school for physical therapy but they require you to get TB vaccines to work in the hospital, and some require the flu shots, so she decided to stay the hell away from the medical field! We don't use anything toxic. We actually make our own laundry soap, dish soap, tooth paste, shampoos, only clean with vinegar. I, too, am concerned about all the toxins we are exposed to through just about everything we use in life. If it doesn't come from a natural source, I stay away! I drink raw milk, eat free-range eggs, local meat/veggies and don't eat anything that comes in a package. My girlfriend and I actually in the process of looking into buying land and starting our own homestead where we can raise our own animals(chickens, ducks, goats, maybe pigs) for food... we'll raise them humanely and give them a great life!


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## Liz (Sep 27, 2010)

That sounds so wonderful. We have a third acre of property and are content with that. I do make my laundry soap and toothpaste is coconut oil and baking soda with an essential oil of spearmint. Love it. My son hates mint so his is cherry flavored. We are drinking almond milk and are raising ducks for meat this year instead of chickens though I am getting 8 hens for eggs - they don't get eaten til they stop laying. LOL My kids are non vaccinated also. never sick and if they catch a cold they are well in a day. I was vaccinated against everything and get sick easy and have thyroid issues, etc. Thanks mom. LOL


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## Kitkat771 (Mar 31, 2012)

I don't know a lot about pet vaccines, but the basic information was scary to me. However, I was afraid of parvo too so I did the basic minimum when Miley was a puppy. I didn't have Chloe when she was a pup, and I didn't vaccinate her when I got her other than a rabbies. 

I don't understand how they can give a tiny dog the same dosage as a large dog. 

I also believe vaccines played a role in my daughters autism which is off topic here. I think there is an issue with this in people and pets. 
I'm on the fense with HW prevention. It's a problem here in Texas. I didn't give my dogs any this winter and haven't yet this spring. Last year I gave them HW in April, May, and June, and then stopped for the year. They haven't had any HW meds since last June. 

I've also never given topical flea stuff before other than the spray I tried today. They never got fleas last year. My cat was covered in fleas when we first let him in and my dogs never got them. I also found a stray puppy covered in fleas that I temporarily took in a few months ago and my dogs didn't get them. 
I noticed Miley itching a lot lately so thought she might have some.


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## Liz (Sep 27, 2010)

Sometimes they itch when you switch to raw mostly because chicken is pretty lean and they may need more fat - but don't rush to add too much fat back in as that can lead to tummy troubles. If you see fleas deal with that but slowly add more fat back in their diet. Plus the season is getting drier and can cause itchiness, detoxing from a change in diet can do this also. Give it a little time and see if as you add more fatty/richer meats the itching goes away. If you see fleas there have been a few thread about natural flea control. You might want to check those out. :smile:


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## Sheltielover25 (Jan 18, 2011)

Kitkat771 said:


> I don't know a lot about pet vaccines, but the basic information was scary to me. However, I was afraid of parvo too so I did the basic minimum when Miley was a puppy. I didn't have Chloe when she was a pup, and I didn't vaccinate her when I got her other than a rabbies.
> 
> I don't understand how they can give a tiny dog the same dosage as a large dog.
> 
> ...


I agree with everything you're saying. The parvo thing scared me, but at the same time, I read a lot of dogs with reported parvo cases had indeed received the vaccine. So I don't feel there's any benefit to them whatsoever. I used to give my cat flea medicine and never really thought about it... then after my two dogs developed neuro issues, I start researching vaccines which let to toxins which let to every area of life and I promised to never give them anything unnatural again... even if it means spending more time that just the time it takes to apply the toxins or scoop from the bag.


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## RCTRIPLEFRESH5 (Feb 11, 2010)

winston has been n interceptor all of his life but that is no longer available an i am going to be ordering hw...like meg i don;t feel comfortable NOT giving hw....and since i only give it every 2 months and underdose winston...i feel ok with it....

BUT Im worried bc hg plus is ivermectin and i read a lot of dogs react badly to it.


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## Kitkat771 (Mar 31, 2012)

After reading the posts and doing other research I will never give my animals another vaccine. I haven't given my own kids vaccines in years either. Since they are homeschooled now it's no longer an issue. 
My previous neighbor didn't vaccinate her dogs either and they were healthy and she even fed her dogs kibble. Her grandson has severe autism so she's against all vaccines in animals and people.


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## Sheltielover25 (Jan 18, 2011)

Liz said:


> My kids are non vaccinated also. never sick and if they catch a cold they are well in a day. I was vaccinated against everything and get sick easy and have thyroid issues, etc. Thanks mom. LOL


I hear this all the time. If you trust the immune system, and let it build naturally, it's amazing what it's capable of. I, too, was vaccinated but my mom doesn't vaccinate her animals anymore after I shared with her what I've learned.


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## Liz (Sep 27, 2010)

Feel free to PM me if you need information or support. It can be hard being the only "crazy person" you know. My kids are and have always been home schooled too, they are 15 and 13. Love it.


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## yunnielele (Oct 30, 2011)

shellbell said:


> I will ALWAYS give monthly HW preventative. Never anything topical though.



Same here every month like clockwork. 
Although we use Cedar Cide on our lawn too because of mosquitoes, but that's more for the humans then the dogs. lol I believe Cedar Cide keeps fleas and tics away too.


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## RCTRIPLEFRESH5 (Feb 11, 2010)

RCTRIPLEFRESH5 said:


> winston has been n interceptor all of his life but that is no longer available an i am going to be ordering hw...like meg i don;t feel comfortable NOT giving hw....and since i only give it every 2 months and underdose winston...i feel ok with it....
> 
> BUT Im worried bc hg plus is ivermectin and i read a lot of dogs react badly to it.


any thoughts^^^


liz what are your thoughts on neutering or spaying?


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## Liz (Sep 27, 2010)

RC - are you trying to get me in trouble???  My own dogs are show and breeding dogs so obviously they are not neutered or spayed. My males have never had a problem or been a problem and in 25 years of my own dogs (as an adult) I have been through 1 case of pyometra and I actually could have prevented it if I had used my head. My 7 year old smooth girl got open pyometra - the vet wanted to spay immediately. With lots of help from my holistic mentors and a month of patience the infection is cleared holistically - not one antibiotic and she is healthy and being bred this summer. My puppies go on contract to remain intact until at least two years old so that they finish maturing. If I feel someone is very responsible I will place a pup on a co-own contract to remain intact which is my preference, that way if the girl is bred I have to sign off on the litter for it to be registered. 

In a perfect world I believe it is healthier to keep your dogs intact - with the irresponsibility I see daily neutering and spaying is essential. Minimally in a responsible home (not a shelter or rescue situation) I would like to see a dog reach maturity before being neutered as hormones do play a big role in growth and bone formation. Sometimes for medical reasons it has to be done sooner and that is understandable. Many people choose to spay/neuter to avoid cancers and pyo. I understand that and though I believe a lot is hype and scare tactics we are each responsible for our own pets and the decisions we make for them. I don't look down on anyone for doing what they feel is in their pets best interest - just research and understand the pros and cons on your own before trusting anyone. Mine remain intact.


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## Scarlett_O' (May 19, 2011)

RCTRIPLEFRESH5 said:


> winston has been n interceptor all of his life but that is no longer available an i am going to be ordering hw...like meg i don;t feel comfortable NOT giving hw....and since i only give it every 2 months and underdose winston...i feel ok with it....
> 
> BUT Im worried bc hg plus is ivermectin and i read a lot of dogs react badly to it.



You need to get on to WSU's website and order their test to test for MDR1 mutation(multi drug sensitivity.)

The kit is free, they send it to you with instructions, you send it back(after swabbing his mouth) and send in the $70 payment, they are them able to tell you if he shows that he would be sensitive to the medicines that effect MDR1 mutation. 

Veterinary Clinical Pharmacology Lab at the College of Veterinary Medicine

I would never again give a dog with white feet ivermectim without testing, heck I don't take any of mine to the barn when I know it's worming day because of ivermectim.


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## ShanniBella (Jul 1, 2011)

I don't use HW preventative, flea killers, and will NO LONGER vaccinate! I believe that all these chemicals being put in and on our dogs on a monthly basis is killing them younger and younger these days. The average American dog lives only 11 years.......something is wrong there.


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## brandypup (Jan 23, 2012)

Currently the dogs get food grade DE. (can't spell it) 
They get a frontline right now becuase I do not need to become infested. Every 45 days they get that. Spring and summer.
For HW thhey get ivomec every 45 days spring/summer and a little longer spread in t he winter months.


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## brandypup (Jan 23, 2012)

Liz said:


> RC - are you trying to get me in trouble???  - just research and understand the pros and cons on your own before trusting anyone. Mine remain intact.


Yep. Liz it's wonderful and I comend everyone who is responsible enough for this. The magority of the standard populaiton wouldn't be able to get through the first 10 months without haveing an oops litter. Especially in my city. People are such animal idiots. (but they also do not get apporvals from responsible breeders)

I commend responsible breeder who research for responsible owners who can do that. I (being in standard popultion) have to outweight the risks/benefits of homes vs unwannted litters.

That said. My next dog is going to be an English Mastifff which also require special requirements on s/n. If I go through a responsible breeder (vs rescue already altered) I am opting for a male dog so I can keep him intact the rrequired 18+ months. I am not sure I would wnt an intact female. It's somethign I have to consder at great lengghts due to their s/n requirements from responsible breeders.


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## meggels (May 30, 2010)

Liz said:


> I am sorry to hear that. He might be eligible for a waiver though and that would be a good thing. Have you tried Thuja with him? You might also look into nosodes - it might just be enough comfort for you to transition from traditional preventatives.



That was two years ago, and it was the one year rabies vaccine since it was the first time, so he's been living in sin since then LOL.

We actually saw a new vet two weeks ago and he was very supportive of me not giving the rabies vaccine again, I was pleasantly surprised. So we'll probably pursue the letter of exemption from the state veterinary board.


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## bridget246 (Oct 26, 2011)

Liz said:


> RC - are you trying to get me in trouble???  My own dogs are show and breeding dogs so obviously they are not neutered or spayed. My males have never had a problem or been a problem and in 25 years of my own dogs (as an adult) I have been through 1 case of pyometra and I actually could have prevented it if I had used my head. My 7 year old smooth girl got open pyometra - the vet wanted to spay immediately. With lots of help from my holistic mentors and a month of patience the infection is cleared holistically - not one antibiotic and she is healthy and being bred this summer. My puppies go on contract to remain intact until at least two years old so that they finish maturing. If I feel someone is very responsible I will place a pup on a co-own contract to remain intact which is my preference, that way if the girl is bred I have to sign off on the litter for it to be registered.
> 
> In a perfect world I believe it is healthier to keep your dogs intact - with the irresponsibility I see daily neutering and spaying is essential. Minimally in a responsible home (not a shelter or rescue situation) I would like to see a dog reach maturity before being neutered as hormones do play a big role in growth and bone formation. Sometimes for medical reasons it has to be done sooner and that is understandable. Many people choose to spay/neuter to avoid cancers and pyo. I understand that and though I believe a lot is hype and scare tactics we are each responsible for our own pets and the decisions we make for them. I don't look down on anyone for doing what they feel is in their pets best interest - just research and understand the pros and cons on your own before trusting anyone. Mine remain intact.


I'm also trying to get into showing Bridget. But they force me to be uptodate on vaccines. I took her home with the idea that I would show her. Realized real quickly that there was a whole lot to know about dogs beyond just training them. I'm still going to work with Bridget to get her into shows. Due to my inexperience we will be starting later than planned. 

I would love to know more about vaccinations with children. I would PM you but that wouldn't be fair. I think a lot of other people are interested in your knowledge as well.

Edit: Actually, it looks like we will be starting conformation tomorrow at 8pm.


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## Liz (Sep 27, 2010)

Who forced you to update Bridget? I go to conformation class, show n go's, obedience class, etc and have never been forced to vaccinate. I have been required to sign a waiver but I am o.k. with that. As far as showing goes all my dogs go at different ages. My shelties this time have enormous coat and confidence to match so they are going out this Spring at a little younger than a year old, their mother will be specialed in UKC to get her Grand Champion. My collie boy will start training in Rally Obedience because he still looks to puppyish to compete in his class - he probably will be 3 before he sees and AKC conformation ring though this Summer he will go to International and UKC. I would look into UKC or Int'l shows because they are much more friendly and a great place to get started - there are a lot of professional handler in AKC and this is not the case with UKC or Int'l where they are owner handled. Just have fun.

Vaccinating children for me is like vaccinating my dogs. There are too many toxins in the actual vaccine and vaccine protocols are ridiculous. I believe they are up to about 30 childhood vaccinations (multiple for some) The fight started at birth when they wanted to vaccinate before the baby even came to me and vaccinating for sexual transmitted disease - really I didn't see where that was an immediate problem. I made sure my husband followed each child til they were returned to me and they were never out of our sight. There are too many issues with children that are vaccinated though many are supposedly fine. We need to ask why all of a sudden every other child is ADD or ADHD (besides bad parenting) why the increase in asthmas, allergies, nervous system disorders, learning disabilities, etc. It is not natural or normal to poison our children. My children have been exposed to inner city kids, low income kids, friends from all lifestyles, have attended YMCA classes, etc. They are not sheltered. We have had chicken pox outbreaks in our area as well as meningitis twice and MRSA and my kids never got sick. They are strong, healthy, no asthma (even though their cousins have severe allergies and asthma - and were all vaccinated)no allergies, no disabilities. There is a ton of info but seeing is believing and they make me glad of the choices I made for them.


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## Sheltielover25 (Jan 18, 2011)

Liz said:


> \
> Vaccinating children for me is like vaccinating my dogs. There are too many toxins in the actual vaccine and vaccine protocols are ridiculous. I believe they are up to about 30 childhood vaccinations (multiple for some) The fight started at birth when they wanted to vaccinate before the baby even came to me and vaccinating for sexual transmitted disease - really I didn't see where that was an immediate problem. I made sure my husband followed each child til they were returned to me and they were never out of our sight. There are too many issues with children that are vaccinated though many are supposedly fine. We need to ask why all of a sudden every other child is ADD or ADHD (besides bad parenting) why the increase in asthmas, allergies, nervous system disorders, learning disabilities, etc. It is not natural or normal to poison our children. My children have been exposed to inner city kids, low income kids, friends from all lifestyles, have attended YMCA classes, etc. They are not sheltered. We have had chicken pox outbreaks in our area as well as meningitis twice and MRSA and my kids never got sick. They are strong, healthy, no asthma (even though their cousins have severe allergies and asthma - and were all vaccinated)no allergies, no disabilities. There is a ton of info but seeing is believing and they make me glad of the choices I made for them.


I love this and couldn't agree more. While I don't have any children yet, I don't plan on ever vaccinating them nor will I have them in a hospital. I'd like to stay as far away from one as possible, so as long as I'm low-risk, we''ll all be at home. I've watched countless documentaries and read hours of information and feel like my decision will be the right one. I don't plan to have all those silly ultrasounds so I can see what it looks like in my tummy, and I will most likely use a chiropractor when my child is sick. I don't trust doctors or vets the least bit. I know who trained them and it's all a big money making business. Good for you, Liz! I'm so happy to hear another success story of non-vaccinating!


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## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

I was just listening to TV and they were talking about the huge number of kids with autism - something like 1 in 78 (could be a little off since I'm senile).

To me, that's an epidemic. They say it's because we are better at diagnosing but I think that's BS. I think there's an environmental cause.

THIRTY vaccines? When I was young we got vaccinated for polio and TB.


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## Sheltielover25 (Jan 18, 2011)

xellil said:


> I was just listening to TV and they were talking about the huge number of kids with autism - something like 1 in 78 (could be a little off since I'm senile).
> 
> To me, that's an epidemic. They say it's because we are better at diagnosing but I think that's BS. I think there's an environmental cause.
> 
> THIRTY vaccines? When I was young we got vaccinated for polio and TB.


I think it's an environmental and also vaccine-linked. Look at studies of the Amish and their Autism rate -- virtually none and the few cases they have, vaccinated or adopted children who were previously vaccinated. They've also done studies that children with Autism have much higher rates of mercury in their bodies, so I'm thinking maybe their body can't expel it like those without Autism. We've being poisoned in every area of life -- the air we breath, the water we drink, the food we eat... it's horrible!


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## shellbell (Sep 24, 2011)

xellil said:


> I was just listening to TV and they were talking about the huge number of kids with autism - something like 1 in 78 (could be a little off since I'm senile).
> 
> To me, that's an epidemic. They say it's because we are better at diagnosing but I think that's BS. I think there's an environmental cause.
> 
> THIRTY vaccines? When I was young we got vaccinated for polio and TB.


I haven’t done enough research on kids and vaccinations to have an informed opinion (probably b/c I don’t have any kids, LOL) but I do think that all the parents who claim to notice changes after vaccines can’t be wrong. While I don’t necessarily think we need to do away with all childhood vaccines, I think at the very least doctors need to wait, and give them when kids are older (not still babies), and not give so many at once. Let babies grow up some and reach certain developmental milestones and beyond, before you run the risk of vaccinating and triggering possible autism.

On another note though, a lot of parents actually campaign to get their kids diagnosed with autism in order to receive certain benefits. So the increase in diagnosis could also be slightly due to some kids being diagnosed b/c their parents are insisting on it, not b/c they truly should be diagnosed.

Sorry to go totally off topic with this thread…..


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## brandypup (Jan 23, 2012)

I have a very healthy vaccinated kid but not becuase I wanted to vaccinate. I had a horrible peditricain, and a day care and they wouldn't even let me enroll my kid in kindergarten with a year old dental record. (her annual was like that afternoon) I had to come back and enroll her. iw ish I could have done stufff differnt but I know more about pet vaccines then kids, but I am sure it's not far off. I do my dogs rabies every 3 years. I will be doing a purvax on the cats so I do not have any hassel moving them acorss the states.


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## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

i just wonder how many are necessary. Does chicken pox really kill people? And even if so, wouldn't the numbers be so small the risk would be better than the vaccine?

I had chicken pox as a kid. And mumps, and measles. All my friends did, too. I don't remember anyone dying from getting that stuff. in fact, I think the danger is much higher if you get it as an adult.

Polio, yes, the risk of the vaccine would be worth it.

At least with kids you don't have to keep getting the shot repeatedly for the rest of your life like dogs do. Except for the flu shot - I've never had a flu shot and I've never had the flu. I think it's because i built up immunities as a child - I was never protected from germs.


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## chowder (Sep 7, 2008)

I just got caught up in this thread. Lots of good information that I had to copy down. 

I'm still trying to figure out what to do about the rabies vaccine. Last week in our town we had a man who had to euthanize his three dogs because they encountered a raccoon in the yard and killed it. The raccoon tested positive for rabies and the dogs were out of date on their rabies vaccines. In this state, if the dogs are out of date by even a day, you have to pay to quarantine them at a vets for 6 months, or euthanize them if they have come into contact with a rabid animal. This man could not afford to quarantine his 3 dogs. 

Rocky is due for his 3 year rabies in September. He hasn't had a vaccine in 3 years. He had his puppy rabies, and his adult rabies and according to all research, that should be good for a minimum of 7 years, probably longer. Sigh....... but what if we get a raccoon or a fox in our yard?


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## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

That's why I will do whatever they tell me to do about rabies vaccines. I'm not going to defy the law on that one.

Aside from the cost - what would it do to my dogs to be caged for six months? Just unthinkable.


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## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

i just read our state laws. Even if your dog is current on rabies shots, if they are exposed to rabies they must be quarantined for 45 days and vaccinated AGAIN. That's jsut ridiculous. If they are not current, it's 90 days.


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## RCTRIPLEFRESH5 (Feb 11, 2010)

quarantined at home i hope....


xellil said:


> i just read our state laws. Even if your dog is current on rabies shots, if they are exposed to rabies they must be quarantined for 45 days and vaccinated AGAIN. That's jsut ridiculous. If they are not current, it's 90 days.


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## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

it says location of quarantine is determined by the county. 

For my county, it say we have to follow the state regulations so that seems a little circular. 

It ALSO says we vaccinate according to the state schedule but all the state laws that i can find say shots have to be "current." So I really can't even find whether it's one or three years, or whether they would let me quarantine at home.

If I have to quarantine anyway, why bother to get the shots? that makes so sense. I must be missing something.


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## RCTRIPLEFRESH5 (Feb 11, 2010)

70 bucks is kind of steep...i iddnt know that white dogs were more prone to allergic reactions with iver??


Scarlett_O' said:


> You need to get on to WSU's website and order their test to test for MDR1 mutation(multi drug sensitivity.)
> 
> The kit is free, they send it to you with instructions, you send it back(after swabbing his mouth) and send in the $70 payment, they are them able to tell you if he shows that he would be sensitive to the medicines that effect MDR1 mutation.
> 
> ...


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## bridget246 (Oct 26, 2011)

Liz said:


> Who forced you to update Bridget? I go to conformation class, show n go's, obedience class, etc and have never been forced to vaccinate. I have been required to sign a waiver but I am o.k. with that. As far as showing goes all my dogs go at different ages. My shelties this time have enormous coat and confidence to match so they are going out this Spring at a little younger than a year old, their mother will be specialed in UKC to get her Grand Champion. My collie boy will start training in Rally Obedience because he still looks to puppyish to compete in his class - he probably will be 3 before he sees and AKC conformation ring though this Summer he will go to International and UKC. I would look into UKC or Int'l shows because they are much more friendly and a great place to get started - there are a lot of professional handler in AKC and this is not the case with UKC or Int'l where they are owner handled. Just have fun.
> 
> Vaccinating children for me is like vaccinating my dogs. There are too many toxins in the actual vaccine and vaccine protocols are ridiculous. I believe they are up to about 30 childhood vaccinations (multiple for some) The fight started at birth when they wanted to vaccinate before the baby even came to me and vaccinating for sexual transmitted disease - really I didn't see where that was an immediate problem. I made sure my husband followed each child til they were returned to me and they were never out of our sight. There are too many issues with children that are vaccinated though many are supposedly fine. We need to ask why all of a sudden every other child is ADD or ADHD (besides bad parenting) why the increase in asthmas, allergies, nervous system disorders, learning disabilities, etc. It is not natural or normal to poison our children. My children have been exposed to inner city kids, low income kids, friends from all lifestyles, have attended YMCA classes, etc. They are not sheltered. We have had chicken pox outbreaks in our area as well as meningitis twice and MRSA and my kids never got sick. They are strong, healthy, no asthma (even though their cousins have severe allergies and asthma - and were all vaccinated)no allergies, no disabilities. There is a ton of info but seeing is believing and they make me glad of the choices I made for them.


I have a little girl along the way so this is very important topic for me. Maybe we can make another topic for this in the general section. Never thought of looking at this site for help raising a baby. What can't Liz do? 

Thank you for the advice on the akc handling. I know it's rough. I'm in it to get the experience and letting someone else handle my dog isn't going to give it to me. It might mean I would win less but that isn't what I'm there for. I'll look into going into other shows as well. I actually can't wait to get started with conformation to tomorrow.


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## Dude and Bucks Mamma (May 14, 2011)

RCTRIPLEFRESH5 said:


> any thoughts^^^
> 
> 
> liz what are your thoughts on neutering or spaying?


I have two intact males. I don't really enjoy having females as I like males' personalities and clinginess so spaying isn't an issue for me. The rules for my boys are that they are never allowed out back without one of us and we never leave them alone with other dogs (that one is just common sense for ALL dogs) because of others owning females who could potentially be intact and silent heats worry me.

People are constantly telling me I should get mine spayed but Buck is getting ready to enter the show ring and Dude isn't a problem. I, personally, believe that removing an animal's reproductive system is not a benefit. I have never had a healthier animal than the two I have now and all of my previous animals (outside of my mare) were spayed/neutered. 

People say that dogs calm down once they are spayed or neutered but my only calm dogs have been my intact dogs. My spayed dalmatian was hyper. My neutered brittany was neurotic and, while calmer than your typical brittany and a great family dog, he was much more active than Dude ever was. Buck has a little bit of leeway since he is only one year old but he spends most of his time at home calmly lying on his bed. 

I don't think spaying and neutering is the answer to the overpopulation problem. I think education is. I have owned intact dogs for nearly 8 1/2 years now and neither dog has ever or will ever sire a litter. It isn't hard to take care of an intact dog. Most people who let their dogs breed freely shouldn't own dogs in the first place. My neighbor growing up had an intact husky who every time she went into heat, she would escape and go roaming the neighborhood. We made sure she couldn't get into our yard with Dude. They should never have been allowed to own a dog. It comes down to the fact that dog ownership has become a right rather than a privilege. I don't think spaying and neutering is bad (unless the dog is too young) but I don't think mandatory spay/neuter laws are right.



chowder said:


> I just got caught up in this thread. Lots of good information that I had to copy down.
> 
> I'm still trying to figure out what to do about the rabies vaccine. Last week in our town we had a man who had to euthanize his three dogs because they encountered a raccoon in the yard and killed it. The raccoon tested positive for rabies and the dogs were out of date on their rabies vaccines. In this state, if the dogs are out of date by even a day, you have to pay to quarantine them at a vets for 6 months, or euthanize them if they have come into contact with a rabid animal. This man could not afford to quarantine his 3 dogs.
> 
> Rocky is due for his 3 year rabies in September. He hasn't had a vaccine in 3 years. He had his puppy rabies, and his adult rabies and according to all research, that should be good for a minimum of 7 years, probably longer. Sigh....... but what if we get a raccoon or a fox in our yard?


This is why we will continue to vaccinate for rabies. And not just if they encounter a rabid animal!

We all know that even the best dog WILL bite in the wrong situation. They are animals and their teeth are their defense. As far as I know, the only way to determine if an animal has rabies is by necropsy... I am not going to stop vaccinating my dogs for rabies and have them risk ending up stuck in a situation where they feel they have to defend themselves with their teeth and lose their life over it. I don't think we will vaccinate against anything else anymore but rabies is one thing I am not willing to lose my dog over.



RCTRIPLEFRESH5 said:


> 70 bucks is kind of steep...i iddnt know that white dogs were more prone to allergic reactions with iver??


I don't know about you but $70 is nothing in comparison to my white footed collie's life. The whole thing with vets is "white feet, don't treat" but now you can test a dog to see if it will have a bad reaction to ivermectin.



bridget246 said:


> I have a little girl along the way so this is very important topic for me. Maybe we can make another topic for this in the general section. Never thought of looking at this site for help raising a baby. What can't Liz do?
> 
> Thank you for the advice on the akc handling. I know it's rough. I'm in it to get the experience and letting someone else handle my dog isn't going to give it to me. It might mean I would win less but that isn't what I'm there for. I'll look into going into other shows as well. I actually can't wait to get started with conformation to tomorrow.


The point Liz was making with AKC vs UKC was that AKC is riddled with professional handlers. This is what these people do for a living. The owners pay them to help their dogs win by showing them flawlessly. It is very hard for an unprofessional owner/handler to win against professional handlers though certainly not impossible. The UKC does not allow professional handlers so it would be easier for someone who has little to no experience to gain the experience they need to hang with professional handlers while not losing every single time you enter the ring with your dog.

Buck is registered with both the AKC and the UKC and is my first owned/handled dog. I showed Bedlington Terriers and English Foxhounds in juniors many years ago but I am actively looking for nearby UKC shows to get myself some experience to help me with AKC shows (a lot more AKC shows are closer to me than UKC shows).


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## meggels (May 30, 2010)

Liz said:


> I am sorry to hear that. He might be eligible for a waiver though and that would be a good thing. Have you tried Thuja with him? You might also look into nosodes - it might just be enough comfort for you to transition from traditional preventatives.



I need to look into both of these...


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## chowder (Sep 7, 2008)

Dude and Bucks Mamma said:


> I have two intact males. I don't really enjoy having females as I like males' personalities and clinginess so spaying isn't an issue for me. The rules for my boys are that they are never allowed out back without one of us and we never leave them alone with other dogs (that one is just common sense for ALL dogs) because of others owning females who could potentially be intact and silent heats worry me.


The breeder we are getting the puppy from in August requires a 2 year wait before neutering and prefers that you never spay or neuter the pups. This will be our first un-neutered dog so your info is very helpful. 




> I don't know about you but $70 is nothing in comparison to my white footed collie's life. The whole thing with vets is "white feet, don't treat" but now you can test a dog to see if it will have a bad reaction to ivermectin.


I wish the vet who gave Rocky ivermectin the first time had known that quote!


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## meggels (May 30, 2010)

Also- as scary as it is, knowing what murph has been through after his rabies vax, i just don't think I can do it to him again


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## Scarlett_O' (May 19, 2011)

RCTRIPLEFRESH5 said:


> 70 bucks is kind of steep...i iddnt know that white dogs were more prone to allergic reactions with iver??


Not to me, compared to the life of my dogs! And I'll be testing 4 out of 5 some time this year!! (Well I'll probably get Dixi tested too as I don't trust her to not be the one who would, out of all black footed dogs, to have the mutation.)

Like Jess said....it's just not worth the risk, since there IS a test now....other wise the dog shouldnt be given ivermectim at all!

I would think you out of all people, the one who is always paranoid about everything for Winston's safety and well being would be one who would set aside a little money to get this simple test done!:wacko:

And yes, it's white footed dogs, "White feet, don't treat" use to be the automatic fall back, now it's "White feet, test before treating."


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## ShanniBella (Jul 1, 2011)

meggels said:


> Also- as scary as it is, knowing what murph has been through after his rabies vax, i just don't think I can do it to him again


What happened to Murph after his rabies shot? My girls hair has been falling out since she had it. I mean, she does have allergies but the rabies knocked it for a loop.


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## meggels (May 30, 2010)

This is what happened directly after:





















And it just seems like his immune system took a dive after that incident. I did not own him when he was given the vax, but after that, he had allergy issues, ear infection issues, and just doesn't scream "HEALTHY SHINY HAPPY DOG" to me. I mean, he's happy, and he's definitely finally improving (minus his feet) but it's def been a long road, lots of vet visits and the raw diet has for sure been an answer in many ways, but I have to wonder (and have pretty much drawn my own conclusions) that the rabies vax ruined his immune system.

And he comes from beautiful, championship lines. I mean, his parents are stunning. I've become friendly with his breeder and she produces stunning dogs. So it's not like he's a BYB french bulldog that would come from lines with all these health issues. He was a big $$$ french bulldog that came from an amazing breeder.


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## Liz (Sep 27, 2010)

Rabies can cause all sorts of auto immune issues, coat problems, allergy issues, even changes in temperment. If toxic chemicals cross the brain/blood barrier neurological symptoms occur including but not limited to motion sickness, loss of motor control.


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## chowder (Sep 7, 2008)

meggels said:


> Also- as scary as it is, knowing what murph has been through after his rabies vax, i just don't think I can do it to him again


A lot of the Havana Silk Dog owners give Lyssin after a rabies vaccine because the dogs are suppose to be prone to reactions to it. Supposedly the Lyssin does wonders.

Wellpet - Natural Healing - Homeopathy - Lyssin After Rabies Vaccine


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## meggels (May 30, 2010)

check, check and check to the first three lol! Well maybe not auto immune, but i def think it caused allergy and coat issues!


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## Sheltielover25 (Jan 18, 2011)

Liz said:


> Rabies can cause all sorts of auto immune issues, coat problems, allergy issues, even changes in temperment. If toxic chemicals cross the brain/blood barrier neurological symptoms occur including but not limited to motion sickness, loss of motor control.


Here's the damage it did to my pup. 

VID_20110509_134857.mp4 video by maddy_ciccone18 - Photobucket

Illegal or not, I refuse to poison them again. All vaccines are like playing rush and roulette --- you might get lucky and turn out okay, or you might end up like my dogs.


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## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

Sheltielover25 said:


> Here's the damage it did to my pup.
> 
> VID_20110509_134857.mp4 video by maddy_ciccone18 - Photobucket
> 
> Illegal or not, I refuse to poison them again. All vaccines are like playing rush and roulette --- you might get lucky and turn out okay, or you might end up like my dogs.


that poor pup. Is she better?


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## Sheltielover25 (Jan 18, 2011)

xellil said:


> that poor pup. Is she better?


It comes and goes... some times the episodes like that happen a few times a month, sometimes no months, sometimes a few times a week. They usually vomit and urinate on themselves during episodes. I think it's something similar to Episodic Ataxia in humans. I've found magnesium oil to help and melatonin. If we apply any flea medicine/heart worm/ or anything toxic it sets them off. It's the reason I got into being so "natural" and realized how bad these things are! I actually have siblings and they both have these. One 2 weeks after her first puppy shot, the other two weeks after his rabies shot... The other three puppies didn't get any vaccinations and don't have these issues...


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## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

Sheltielover25 said:


> It comes and goes... some times the episodes like that happen a few times a month, sometimes no months, sometimes a few times a week. They usually vomit and urinate on themselves during episodes. I think it's something similar to Episodic Ataxia in humans. I've found magnesium oil to help and melatonin. If we apply any flea medicine/heart worm/ or anything toxic it sets them off. It's the reason I got into being so "natural" and realized how bad these things are! I actually have siblings and they both have these. One 2 weeks after her first puppy shot, the other two weeks after his rabies shot... The other three puppies didn't get any vaccinations and don't have these issues...


Wow. it sure makes you wonder whether it's worth it, even for dogs who haven't reacted previously.


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## Chocx2 (Nov 16, 2009)

I have to put my 50 cents in on the neutering, my friend who is a vet is doing vasectomies so the dogs keep all the hormones she did her two dogs first, and tested it and no sperm I think its great she is working on finding the surgery for female dogs the tubes I mean. So the dogs are left with all hormones. She said that she hadn't called animal control as of yet she doesn't know what they will say. She is thinking a tattooing them with a v .

I found this interesting.


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## RCTRIPLEFRESH5 (Feb 11, 2010)

chowder said:


> The breeder we are getting the puppy from in August requires a 2 year wait before neutering and prefers that you never spay or neuter the pups. This will be our first un-neutered dog so your info is very helpful.
> 
> 
> 
> I wish the vet who gave Rocky ivermectin the first time had known that quote!


what are you going to be giving your chow for hw since interceptor is not in production?
I read a pyr forum where the members were saying that there pyrs are on ivermectin..is that good enough to mean pyrs are ok with it?

answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20110420134347AAm64un


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## Dude and Bucks Mamma (May 14, 2011)

chowder said:


> The breeder we are getting the puppy from in August requires a 2 year wait before neutering and prefers that you never spay or neuter the pups. This will be our first un-neutered dog so your info is very helpful.
> 
> 
> 
> I wish the vet who gave Rocky ivermectin the first time had known that quote!


I love helping dog owners with intact dogs. Liz would be the one to go to for medical advice, for sure, but in addition to any knowledge she has with her intact dogs I am happy to help 

It really isn't much different than owning a fixed dog. Just a bit more vigilance. 


FOR those of you who don't vaccinate against rabies, what would you do if your dog were to bite a human or someone's pet? 

"My dog doesn't bite" doesn't fly with me. ALL dogs will bite in the wrong situation. And yes, I understand it is our duty to keep them from those situations but with an independently thinking animal it isn't a 100% guarantee that they will never, in 15 years, end up in that kind of situation.

And, although this one is not likely to be nearly as common, what about moving to another country? Most countries require the dogs be up to date on their rabies.

I don't want anyone to take this the wrong way. I am simply asking since I don't know a ton about taking the no vaccine route. I just started learning about this stuff less than a year ago and neither of my boys are due for vaccinations again yet.


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## Scarlett_O' (May 19, 2011)

RCTRIPLEFRESH5 said:


> what are you going to be giving your chow for hw since interceptor is not in production?
> I read a pyr forum where the members were saying that there pyrs are on ivermectin..is that good enough to mean pyrs are ok with it?
> 
> answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20110420134347AAm64un


No, each dog is different!

When I test my 3 Border Collies all 3 of them could easily test to be perfectly fine with the different drugs including ivermectim.....or they could all test to be effected by it...or it could be a mix.


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## Dude and Bucks Mamma (May 14, 2011)

Chocx2 said:


> I have to put my 50 cents in on the neutering, my friend who is a vet is doing vasectomies so the dogs keep all the hormones she did her two dogs first, and tested it and no sperm I think its great she is working on finding the surgery for female dogs the tubes I mean. So the dogs are left with all hormones. She said that she hadn't called animal control as of yet she doesn't know what they will say. She is thinking a tattooing them with a v .
> 
> I found this interesting.


That IS interesting! It will be interesting to see what it leads to as well. I would love to be able to see these dogs who are altered at a young age be able to keep the hormones necessary for growth. What does she think the side effects could be?



RCTRIPLEFRESH5 said:


> what are you going to be giving your chow for hw since interceptor is not in production?
> I read a pyr forum where the members were saying that there pyrs are on ivermectin..is that good enough to mean pyrs are ok with it?
> 
> answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20110420134347AAm64un


There are collies on ivermectin too. The thing is that you don't know if your dog is going to be ok with ivermectin until you either give it to them and they don't have a reaction or you have them tested. It is a genetic mutation. Knowing that there are other collies on ivermectin is SOOO not good enough! Just because one collie can handle it doesn't mean mine can.


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## Sheltielover25 (Jan 18, 2011)

Dude and Bucks Mamma said:


> I love helping dog owners with intact dogs. Liz would be the one to go to for medical advice, for sure, but in addition to any knowledge she has with her intact dogs I am happy to help
> 
> It really isn't much different than owning a fixed dog. Just a bit more vigilance.
> 
> ...


We just don't take them out to dog parks or take them out around other dogs. It's a risk, yes, but if you see the video I posted, would you vaccinate again?

Going out of the country -- most countries take titer testing in lieu of vaccine records! I worry about that one a lot as we have plans to move to South America perhaps and there's a job opportunity I want to explore in Asia, but should the titer not work, I wouldn't go. That's serious love too b/c I'd have the chance to make serious money!


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## Kitkat771 (Mar 31, 2012)

I heard that if you give your dogs 2 consecutive rabbies vaccines they are good for 7 years. I'm not sure if this is true. My dogs have each had one rabbies shot and they are almost 3 years old. 

I have not spayed my girls either. I'm too concerned about putting them under anesthesia sp?. I've heard that some vets don't monitor them while they are under and that scares me too much. Especially, with them being so small. Neither one of my dogs has had a litter of pups. When they are in heat I never allow them to go outside without me. I put a diaper thing on them while they are in the house. Neither one of them bleed very much. I also have a towel or old blanket for them to lay on to prevent stains on my furniture. 

I did have my cat neutered in December. I took him in as a stray in November. He is not happy staying inside the house all the time so i allow him to go outside. He doesn't always stay in my yard so I got him neutered to prevent another unwanted litter. 

I take in stray dogs that I find. The first one I took in got a rabbies shot. We called him Shaggy. I contacted a rescue group to help find Shaggy a home. The rescue group required him to get a rabbies shot. I ended up at the emergency vet with him that night as he had a bad reaction to it. Luckily I got him there on time and he surrvived. However, it did get me to never contact a rescue group again. Now, I take in the strays and find them a home on my own to prevent the vaccinations. Shaggy weighed around 40lbs so he was a medium sized dog. It was awful to watch him suffer.


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## RCTRIPLEFRESH5 (Feb 11, 2010)

ugh i hope interceptor comes back soon.


Dude and Bucks Mamma said:


> That IS interesting! It will be interesting to see what it leads to as well. I would love to be able to see these dogs who are altered at a young age be able to keep the hormones necessary for growth. What does she think the side effects could be?
> 
> 
> 
> There are collies on ivermectin too. The thing is that you don't know if your dog is going to be ok with ivermectin until you either give it to them and they don't have a reaction or you have them tested. It is a genetic mutation. Knowing that there are other collies on ivermectin is SOOO not good enough! Just because one collie can handle it doesn't mean mine can.


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## Dude and Bucks Mamma (May 14, 2011)

Sheltielover25 said:


> We just don't take them out to dog parks or take them out around other dogs. It's a risk, yes, but if you see the video I posted, would you vaccinate again?
> 
> Going out of the country -- most countries take titer testing in lieu of vaccine records! I worry about that one a lot as we have plans to move to South America perhaps and there's a job opportunity I want to explore in Asia, but should the titer not work, I wouldn't go. That's serious love too b/c I'd have the chance to make serious money!


Actually, yea. I will vaccinate again. We can't live in our neighborhood or on base without our dogs being up to date on rabies. I am definitely going to look into titer testing to see if the Navy has any policy on that but I don't see the military being too concerned about sparing our pets a vaccination. If we weren't a Navy family I would think about it more but, as it is, we aren't settled down in one place or even in one state or country so I don't feel comfortable not vaccinating them. I feel that I am already doing better by them because we don't plan on having them vaccinated for the myriad of other things vets make us feel that we need. 

My boy is also in training to be a service dog for me so being out in public and around other dogs is inevitable. I don't think I would be comfortable with him being in so many situations that, while he may be used to, are not natural for a dog. 

I also plan on doing conformation showing, obedience, and possibly some rally. I know Liz takes hers to conformation shows but I am just not comfortable having him so involved in those kinds of things and not being protected against the consequences of a bite.

And thank you for telling me about the titers for moving to another country! Our planned move isn't going to occur for possibly up to ten years so I am just beginning the research on that.


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## meggels (May 30, 2010)

That video makes me want to cry.


I take my chances with Murph not being vaccinated, but I will not risk his health anymore for the vaccine. I think that the chances of Murph biting are so so so so slim. I have put him in so many situations and he is one of the most tolerant dogs I have ever been around. To me, it is not worth risking after what he has been through and the dog he was BEFORE the vaccine. Everyone has to weigh their own personal life circumstances and what they are comfortable with. 

Being that Murph is very rarely outside, he hops off the stoop and pees and runs back in(never alone), we live in a suburban neighborhood, he's never out in the woods where he could find a rabid animal, and if I were to see something fishy, I would remove him from the situation immediately, I'm honestly not all that worried. He doesn't compete, he's so tolerant with people of all ages (he eats up any attention he can get) and I'm not worried about him biting a dog, to me, it's not worth it to give him the vaccine again based on his reaction before. And the new vet I saw, along with his old vet, would be willing to write a letter to the state veterinary board to get him an exemption.


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## meggels (May 30, 2010)

Dude and Bucks Mamma said:


> Actually, yea. I will vaccinate again. We can't live in our neighborhood or on base without our dogs being up to date on rabies. I am definitely going to look into titer testing to see if the Navy has any policy on that but I don't see the military being too concerned about sparing our pets a vaccination. If we weren't a Navy family I would think about it more but, as it is, we aren't settled down in one place or even in one state or country so I don't feel comfortable not vaccinating them. I feel that I am already doing better by them because we don't plan on having them vaccinated for the myriad of other things vets make us feel that we need.
> 
> My boy is also in training to be a service dog for me so being out in public and around other dogs is inevitable. I don't think I would be comfortable with him being in so many situations that, while he may be used to, are not natural for a dog.
> 
> ...



In your case, I can absolutely see why you would and also why you have to. 

I give Abbie the rabies vax because 1) I think she's much more of a bite risk (to a person) than Murph would be, so her chances of being in a predicament are much higher 2) she had no previous reaction 3) she's out in the woods hiking on a regular basis...so to me, it IS worth it to give it to her.


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## meggels (May 30, 2010)

Also, I know any dog is a bite risk based on situation, but I truly believe that Murph would never bite a person. I trust him fully after seeing how sweet, gentle and affectionate he is with strangers of all ages. 

And I've seen him get his a$$ handed to him now by a black lab, a golden retriever, a dachshund, and a cat....so I don't think he'll ever be a risk in that sense either.


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## Dude and Bucks Mamma (May 14, 2011)

meggels said:


> In your case, I can absolutely see why you would and also why you have to.
> 
> I give Abbie the rabies vax because 1) I think she's much more of a bite risk (to a person) than Murph would be, so her chances of being in a predicament are much higher 2) she had no previous reaction 3) she's out in the woods hiking on a regular basis...so to me, it IS worth it to give it to her.


We also live in an area where it is uncommon to go a day without either watching raccoons walk past our backyard fence or having to chase them off our porch to get to our car. Our dogs could VERY easily get a hold of a rabid animal. We do have to check our yard before we out the dogs out to make sure there aren't any back there. We back up to a treeline that divides us from the water so they hang out behind our house all the time.

That video is heartbreaking but I don't think I would be able to sleep at night knowing that my dogs are more at risk of rabies than of having a reaction.


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## Sheltielover25 (Jan 18, 2011)

Dude and Bucks Mamma said:


> We also live in an area where it is uncommon to go a day without either watching raccoons walk past our backyard fence or having to chase them off our porch to get to our car. Our dogs could VERY easily get a hold of a rabid animal. We do have to check our yard before we out the dogs out to make sure there aren't any back there. We back up to a treeline that divides us from the water so they hang out behind our house all the time.
> 
> That video is heartbreaking but I don't think I would be able to sleep at night knowing that my dogs are more at risk of rabies than of having a reaction.


Have you ever looked at the statistics in terms of how many dogs get rabies per year? It's insanely low. If your dogs run into a raccoon with rabies, I doubt the rabies would be the one to get him in the end. I'm not the least bit worried about them getting rabies, maybe about them biting as one is snappy, but that's the risk I'll take b/c Dr. Dodds told me the rabies vaccine is the worst and to never give it to them again. she said " I would not give them rabies vaccine, for sure, as it’s a neurogenic protein" Any self-respecting vet wouldn't administer a vaccine to dogs with issues like mine. I did vaccinate their mom who is normal, but I don't think I'll be doing that again. Plus, they had a rabies shot, so if I were to titer them, I'm certain it would show immunity as the shot last at least seven years. I think putting formaldehyde, aborted fetuses, carbolic acid among other things in our pets system is wayyyyy scarier than rabies! My state doesn't have medical exemptions... disgusting. I've written to congress and sent videos, so maybe they'll change that. 

Yeah, your situation is different, but I'd never be in that one as I don't see me or my partner ever even dreaming of being in the military. We plan to eventually move onto some land and then that will lessen the chances of someone biting someone or something. Sure, it could still happen, but I could also vaccinate them and they could go into a permanent episode and never come out. Honestly, our chances of going abroad might have to be put on hold.


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## Kitkat771 (Mar 31, 2012)

Everything I have read and research stated that the rabies vaccination is for the safety of humans not the safety of pets.


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## Dude and Bucks Mamma (May 14, 2011)

I have weighed the risks and there are just so many stupid people in existence that I feel the biggest risk to my dogs in regards to rabies is someone being stupid around my dogs and being bitten and having to be killed for the sake of the idiot who made my dog defend himself.


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## Chocx2 (Nov 16, 2009)

She doesn't know she just started offering the surgery. She didn't like when dogs were neutered at a young age and she also believes that when you take the dogs hormones away you alter the dogs health wise. She believes that dogs that are fixed have much more injuries, knee, elbows ect than dogs that are intact. She sees dogs that are neutered at young ages and says it alters their growth plates.


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## Chocx2 (Nov 16, 2009)

But she still thinks I'm silly for feeding raw....


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## Dude and Bucks Mamma (May 14, 2011)

Well, at least she is working ON something to benefit dogs. I think what she is doing is great. I hope it works out. It would help those who spay and neuter their dogs young. I have friend I am trying to talk to who is getting their malamute mix spayed at 5 months. She is going to be a big dog. Now I just have to bring it up without offending her...


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## creek817 (Feb 18, 2012)

As much as I miss home (USA), y'all are making me really glad I live in a Rabies Free country!! All our dogs back home get vaccinated, but here, there is no rabies, so Dobby doesn't need that one!

He does get his other vaccinations tho - our Dog Training Club requires them for training, and since that's the one and only "me" thing I do for myself, I want to keep doing it! He hasn't had any vaccines since I've gotten him, but I think I will keep him up to date for training/agility.

But yay for no rabies!


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## RCTRIPLEFRESH5 (Feb 11, 2010)

Scarlett_O' said:


> You need to get on to WSU's website and order their test to test for MDR1 mutation(multi drug sensitivity.)
> 
> The kit is free, they send it to you with instructions, you send it back(after swabbing his mouth) and send in the $70 payment, they are them able to tell you if he shows that he would be sensitive to the medicines that effect MDR1 mutation.
> 
> ...


just ordered the test for Winston since ordering is free.....even though i dont have 70 bucks to spend and am pretty sure it will be a waste of money....but anyway won't his dna die in the mail?

why can't the vet do the test? my dad's giving me a hard time about paying and i'm unemployed...he thins it's a waste too.


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## RCTRIPLEFRESH5 (Feb 11, 2010)

bypoor nutrition do you mean kibble?


Sheltielover25 said:


> Ahhh Nematodes kill the bees and the lady bugs. I don't know if I could bring myself to use something that killed off such important (bees) creatures! We're fostering two black puppies -- so I know what you mean about being hard to see! Yay for no carpet! We have cement floors and it's wonderful!
> 
> As far as heart worms, I don't do anything other than preventative measures like feeding a raw diet and giving them the foundation for having a fabulous immune system. I allow them to eat only unprocessed, chemical-free food and also don't vaccinate allowing their immune system to be optimal! Most dogs who get heart worms have had hard lives with poor nutrition and have a low immune system to boot. I've looked into the issue and find it very hard to find cases of healthy, non-immune compromised dogs having heart worms. I have a friend who has over 20 dogs and has had more all throughout life and she has never used heart worm medicine(Nor does she chemicals for fleas/doesn't vaccinate) I'm more scared of the medicine, than I am of heart worms. I test them every sixth months as a safety measure, but will probably eliminate that at some point as I feel it's more for me than it is them.


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## shellbell (Sep 24, 2011)

In my county if a dog bites someone and is not current on rabies, all that happens is they are quarantined for I think 10 days, and it is in their own home. My sister was bit by her in-law’s dog about a year ago, and he wasn’t up to date. She went to the hospital to get a tetanus shot, and when she told them a dog bit her, she didn’t realize that the authorities would be contacted and would go to the house and everything. But like I said, all that happened was the dog had to be confined to its own home for a few days.


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## chowder (Sep 7, 2008)

RCTRIPLEFRESH5 said:


> just ordered the test for Winston since ordering is free.....even though i dont have 70 bucks to spend and am pretty sure it will be a waste of money....but anyway won't his dna die in the mail?
> 
> why can't the vet do the test? my dad's giving me a hard time about paying and i'm unemployed...he thins it's a waste too.


DNA doesn't "die". That is why they can find your DNA at a crime scene and convict you. And why they can check the DNA on a 30 year old crime and let the guy in jail go free because it turns out he was wrongly convicted.


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## Scarlett_O' (May 19, 2011)

creek817 said:


> As much as I miss home (USA), y'all are making me really glad I live in a Rabies Free country!! All our dogs back home get vaccinated, but here, there is no rabies, so Dobby doesn't need that one!
> 
> He does get his other vaccinations tho - our Dog Training Club requires them for training, and since that's the one and only "me" thing I do for myself, I want to keep doing it! He hasn't had any vaccines since I've gotten him, but I think I will keep him up to date for training/agility.
> 
> But yay for no rabies!


Very lucky about the rabies!!:thumb:

Have you looke into titers? For us, unless I were to give the shots my self(which I generally do, when giving them) it's around the same price, and most training clubs will take them in replacement for vaccine records, that way he doesn't have to have any more!!!:thumb:


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## Scarlett_O' (May 19, 2011)

RCTRIPLEFRESH5 said:


> just ordered the test for Winston since ordering is free.....even though i dont have 70 bucks to spend and am pretty sure it will be a waste of money....but anyway won't his dna die in the mail?
> 
> why can't the vet do the test? my dad's giving me a hard time about paying and i'm unemployed...he thins it's a waste too.


Well I'm sure it will cost more to have the vet swab the mouth and then send it in, which will still cost $70. 

And everything Chowder said is correct. 

And well, if you don't get it done, and something DOES happen to Winston....I hope you understand that there are going to be VERY few of us who are going to feel sorry for you....him, hell ya, you, not so much!


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## chowder (Sep 7, 2008)

Scarlett_O' said:


> Well I'm sure it will cost more to have the vet swab the mouth and then send it in, which will still cost $70.
> 
> And everything Chowder said is correct.
> 
> And well, if you don't get it done, and something DOES happen to Winston....I hope you understand that there are going to be VERY few of us who are going to feel sorry for you....him, hell ya, you, not so much!



You can do what I did....... Rocky was given Ivermectin by the vet without being tested as a puppy. He had a horrible reaction. So now we just assume he is positive and I will not let him have any of the medications on the list that are associated with the genetic mutation. I also have a medic alert tag on him so he is never given them without my knowledge again. He hasn't been formally tested but has already had a really bad reaction. I don't think I need to test him at this point. 

If you don't want to test, just avoid all medications in that family for the rest of Winston's life.


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## bridget246 (Oct 26, 2011)

Dude and Bucks Mamma said:


> The point Liz was making with AKC vs UKC was that AKC is riddled with professional handlers. This is what these people do for a living. The owners pay them to help their dogs win by showing them flawlessly. It is very hard for an unprofessional owner/handler to win against professional handlers though certainly not impossible. The UKC does not allow professional handlers so it would be easier for someone who has little to no experience to gain the experience they need to hang with professional handlers while not losing every single time you enter the ring with your dog.
> 
> Buck is registered with both the AKC and the UKC and is my first owned/handled dog. I showed Bedlington Terriers and English Foxhounds in juniors many years ago but I am actively looking for nearby UKC shows to get myself some experience to help me with AKC shows (a lot more AKC shows are closer to me than UKC shows).


I did understand what she was saying. The AKC shows is what my classes will be training me in. We normally have judges and professionals teaching our confirmation classes so that we can more success in the show ring. Since AKC is what is by me and is what I'm being taught I think it would be best to start with that and then do some UKC training schools later since I will have to travel. My club has already told that they would help me prepare for UKC shows to if I'm interested.


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## Scarlett_O' (May 19, 2011)

chowder said:


> You can do what I did....... Rocky was given Ivermectin by the vet without being tested as a puppy. He had a horrible reaction. So now we just assume he is positive and I will not let him have any of the medications on the list that are associated with the genetic mutation. I also have a medic alert tag on him so he is never given them without my knowledge again. He hasn't been formally tested but has already had a really bad reaction. I don't think I need to test him at this point.
> 
> If you don't want to test, just avoid all medications in that family for the rest of Winston's life.


No, I would say that stupid vet already did a "test" for you!:wacko:

However, I wouldnt ever suggest to someone to try it out and see how badly their dog reacts!(I know you were not saying this Chowder!:wink. Why? Because there is a test out there to use,why not use it?? It doesn't hurt your dog in any way, shape or form...keeps them from having possible major health issues from the drugs, and that saves far more then the few bucks that it costs to have the the test done!!

And like Chowder said....if your not going to have the test done then keep your dog away from all of the medication that is covered by the test, including ivermectim.


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## Sheltielover25 (Jan 18, 2011)

Scarlett_O' said:


> No, I would say that stupid vet already did a "test" for you!:wacko:
> 
> However, I wouldnt ever suggest to someone to try it out and see how badly their dog reacts!(I know you were not saying this Chowder!:wink. Why? Because there is a test out there to use,why not use it?? It doesn't hurt your dog in any way, shape or form...keeps them from having possible major health issues from the drugs, and that saves far more then the few bucks that it costs to have the the test done!!
> 
> ...


I have sheltie mixes, does it get passed on to mixes? I've read conflicting things so I'm not sure. I don't use any kind of chemicals, and they were fine when they were put under to be spayed/neutered. I have the swabs, should I do the test? I can probably do one now and one later since I don't use any chemicals it's not dire to know, but maybe I should know in case something should happen in the future and they need medicines?


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## bridget246 (Oct 26, 2011)

Sheltielover25 said:


> I have sheltie mixes, does it get passed on to mixes? I've read conflicting things so I'm not sure. I don't use any kind of chemicals, and they were fine when they were put under to be spayed/neutered. I have the swabs, should I do the test? I can probably do one now and one later since I don't use any chemicals it's not dire to know, but maybe I should know in case something should happen in the future and they need medicines?


If in doubt I would do it. Would help me sleep at night and could possible save you a big vet bill or the lost of a dog.


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## Liz (Sep 27, 2010)

Bridget - you don't have to do special training to show UKC. They are very similar in patter and such. They expect the dog to behave the same as AKC. The main difference is the lack of professional handlers and they are very much more family friendly. With popular breeds like shepherds, shelties, goldens, etc they are much more enjoyable a club to start showing with. Intl' is very cool because you get a written list of what the judge saw as your dog's positives and faults which is nice to have. My sheltie girl is stunning - she has lovely structure and a head straight from the sheltie standard - she will not do well in AKC even though she is dual titled in UCK and iNtl' because she is a sable merle and this is not a preferred color. My male collie though lovely and very correct can't compete with AKC because he is slow to mature - he will be shown UKC and Int'l and go to AKC at about three years old when he is more mature. AKC can be very unfriendly and you must have a dog that fits their popular standard rather than the printed breed standard. My bi black sheltie pup will not ever show in AKC because she is 13 3/8" tall at the shoulder - standard calls for 13 - 16" - she will not be put up even though she has a classic outline, her mother's gorgeous head, beautiful coat and outgoing temperment - she is small. I find it ridiculous.


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## RCTRIPLEFRESH5 (Feb 11, 2010)

but wat do i give then???? stupid interceptor is out of production...and he needs hw meds!!!! are you finding something else?


chowder said:


> You can do what I did....... Rocky was given Ivermectin by the vet without being tested as a puppy. He had a horrible reaction. So now we just assume he is positive and I will not let him have any of the medications on the list that are associated with the genetic mutation. I also have a medic alert tag on him so he is never given them without my knowledge again. He hasn't been formally tested but has already had a really bad reaction. I don't think I need to test him at this point.
> 
> If you don't want to test, just avoid all medications in that family for the rest of Winston's life.


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## RCTRIPLEFRESH5 (Feb 11, 2010)

Sheltielover25 said:


> Ahhh Nematodes kill the bees and the lady bugs. I don't know if I could bring myself to use something that killed off such important (bees) creatures! We're fostering two black puppies -- so I know what you mean about being hard to see! Yay for no carpet! We have cement floors and it's wonderful!
> 
> As far as heart worms, I don't do anything other than preventative measures like feeding a raw diet and giving them the foundation for having a fabulous immune system. I allow them to eat only unprocessed, chemical-free food and also don't vaccinate allowing their immune system to be optimal! Most dogs who get heart worms have had hard lives with poor nutrition and have a low immune system to boot. I've looked into the issue and find it very hard to find cases of healthy, non-immune compromised dogs having heart worms. I have a friend who has over 20 dogs and has had more all throughout life and she has never used heart worm medicine(Nor does she chemicals for fleas/doesn't vaccinate) I'm more scared of the medicine, than I am of heart worms. I test them every sixth months as a safety measure, but will probably eliminate that at some point as I feel it's more for me than it is them.





RCTRIPLEFRESH5 said:


> bypoor nutrition do you mean kibble?


???????????????????????


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## Liz (Sep 27, 2010)

RC you are getting out of line. I know for a fact Scarlett has no ranch full of horses and she and her husband work hard just to get by like the rest of us do. You were the one very worried about the heart worm meds that you choose to give and now are upset because the test is more than you can afford. I am sorry funds are difficult for you right now but they are difficult for most of us and we just do what we can. Being snotty and telling someone else to pay for your dog's testing is just rude and childish. It is too bad your drug of choice is out of production. Your last three post are just looking for a fight. Chowder gave you good advice - if you need a different med for your dog start researching and quit griping. Your heart worm issues is not our fault. Shelties lover stated her position and you got snotty about her stating that dogs with good nutrition have better immune systems. That is a fact. You don't like it - oh well. Obviously the dogs hardest hit are going to have crap immune systems and are probably being fed junk like Old Roy and Puppy chow but like it or not kibble fed, non vaccinated dogs have the highest uncompromised immune systems. 

Most people don't want to hear any negatives - if that's the case pat yourself on the back and and whatever you like. Winston is your dog and you are responsible. I hope you make the right choices for him. It is not my place to say what those choices are. That said many choices made for our pets are made for our own convenience or satisfaction or to convince ourselves that ALL risk is now alleviated. Everything carries risk - you must decide what risks you are willing to take. Sheltie Lover and I will not risk our dogs with processed food, vaccines, topicals or heart worm preventative. That is our choice and I personally am very satisfied with my choice and I am sure sheltie lover is also. Do your own research and stop blaming others when things go wrong.


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## meggels (May 30, 2010)

RC- Call around to diff vets and see if they have it. I got 6 months worth of Interceptor for both dogs when I was at the vets two weeks ago. They still had a pretty good amount. 

Besides that, I agree with what Liz said.


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## chowder (Sep 7, 2008)

Sheltielover25 said:


> I have sheltie mixes, does it get passed on to mixes? I've read conflicting things so I'm not sure. I don't use any kind of chemicals, and they were fine when they were put under to be spayed/neutered. I have the swabs, should I do the test? I can probably do one now and one later since I don't use any chemicals it's not dire to know, but maybe I should know in case something should happen in the future and they need medicines?


Rocky is a mix and it is passed on to him. He is mostly Chow but he has something else in him and we are not sure entirely what. He is very big and has much longer, more flowing hair then most chows. Guess's are husky, samoyed, malamute, and collie. Even a mix is not immune to carrying the MDRI mutation and it is showing up in more breeds then just the ones usually listed.

Breeds affected by the MDR1 mutation (frequency %)
Breed	Approximate Frequency
Australian Shepherd	50%
Australian Shepherd, Mini	50%
Border Collie	< 5%
Collie	70 %
English Shepherd	15 %
German Shepherd	10 %
Herding Breed Cross	10 %
Long-haired Whippet	65 %
McNab	30 %
Mixed Breed	5 %
Old English Sheepdog	5 %
Shetland Sheepdog	15 %
Silken Windhound	30 %

I avoid any of the drugs in that family, including ivermectin, immodium, acepromazine, cyclosporin, Selamectin, milbemycin, and moxidectin (in fact, most anitparasitic drugs), erythromycin, Vincristine, Vinblastine, Doxorubicin

I have also had three dogs react badly to morphine (when it was combined with ace),Metronidazole , and to frontline. Two were white chows (Rocky and another) and one was my black chow who's father was a pure white chow and carried the white gene.


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## Sheltielover25 (Jan 18, 2011)

Chowder-- do you have the list of medicines I should avoid? That way, until I test, if something happened, I know which ones not to let them administer. I think $70 for any test in the medical world is reasonably priced.... but with that, I'd like to kind of space out the testing since I do own three animals all together and they'd all need to be tested.


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## Sheltielover25 (Jan 18, 2011)

chowder said:


> Rocky is a mix and it is passed on to him. He is mostly Chow but he has something else in him and we are not sure entirely what. He is very big and has much longer, more flowing hair then most chows. Guess's are husky, samoyed, malamute, and collie. Even a mix is not immune to carrying the MDRI mutation and it is showing up in more breeds then just the ones usually listed.
> 
> Breeds affected by the MDR1 mutation (frequency %)
> Breed	Approximate Frequency
> ...


Just what I was looking for, thanks so much, Chowder! do you happen to know what it is about these drugs that cause a reaction to the MDR1 gene? I'm just curious on that part.


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## RCTRIPLEFRESH5 (Feb 11, 2010)

meggels said:


> RC- Call around to diff vets and see if they have it. I got 6 months worth of Interceptor for both dogs when I was at the vets two weeks ago. They still had a pretty good amount.
> 
> Besides that, I agree with what Liz said.


wow that's awesome....
did you need a consult with the vet? or just an rx from your primary vet?

i wonder if i could fax an rx to the vet you use if no vets here have interceptor.


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## meggels (May 30, 2010)

RCTRIPLEFRESH5 said:


> wow that's awesome....
> did you need a consult with the vet? or just an rx from your primary vet?
> 
> i wonder if i could fax an rx to the vet you use if no vets here have interceptor.



Well,t hey had an appt anyways because it was a net vet we used, and they needed their HW test since they were off of interceptor all winter.


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## RCTRIPLEFRESH5 (Feb 11, 2010)

not sure what a net vet is and wisnton is on hw protection every 2 months.


meggels said:


> Well,t hey had an appt anyways because it was a net vet we used, and they needed their HW test since they were off of interceptor all winter.


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## brandypup (Jan 23, 2012)

chowder said:


> A lot of the Havana Silk Dog owners give Lyssin after a rabies vaccine because the dogs are suppose to be prone to reactions to it. Supposedly the Lyssin does wonders.
> 
> Wellpet - Natural Healing - Homeopathy - Lyssin After Rabies Vaccine


I have been reading about this. Any information for cats and lyssin? I am doing 4 5 cats May 4th.


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## meggels (May 30, 2010)

new vet* sorry.


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## bridget246 (Oct 26, 2011)

Liz said:


> RC you are getting out of line. I know for a fact Scarlett has no ranch full of horses and she and her husband work hard just to get by like the rest of us do. You were the one very worried about the heart worm meds that you choose to give and now are upset because the test is more than you can afford. I am sorry funds are difficult for you right now but they are difficult for most of us and we just do what we can. Being snotty and telling someone else to pay for your dog's testing is just rude and childish. It is too bad your drug of choice is out of production. Your last three post are just looking for a fight. Chowder gave you good advice - if you need a different med for your dog start researching and quit griping. Your heart worm issues is not our fault. Shelties lover stated her position and you got snotty about her stating that dogs with good nutrition have better immune systems. That is a fact. You don't like it - oh well. Obviously the dogs hardest hit are going to have crap immune systems and are probably being fed junk like Old Roy and Puppy chow but like it or not kibble fed, non vaccinated dogs have the highest uncompromised immune systems.
> 
> Most people don't want to hear any negatives - if that's the case pat yourself on the back and and whatever you like. Winston is your dog and you are responsible. I hope you make the right choices for him. It is not my place to say what those choices are. That said many choices made for our pets are made for our own convenience or satisfaction or to convince ourselves that ALL risk is now alleviated. Everything carries risk - you must decide what risks you are willing to take. Sheltie Lover and I will not risk our dogs with processed food, vaccines, topicals or heart worm preventative. That is our choice and I personally am very satisfied with my choice and I am sure sheltie lover is also. Do your own research and stop blaming others when things go wrong.


I can completely understand where RC is coming from. I came on to this forum for a good brand of kibble to give to Bridget so I could fix her stool related issues. The actual solution was easy but getting to it was not easy! Caused a lot of headaches, griefs upon'd my eyes to more problems than I ever even knew could exist with dogs. Toward the start I felt attacked, freaked out a few times. It was all very overwhelming. I know I said it before, but I'll say it again and again. Thank you gals, and guys for being so patient with me. Helpfully RC will get the understanding he needs to. I hate to say it is going to take time but, it's going to take time. 

To RC: The test isn't something you have to do today. Talk to your dad about it a little more and maybe show him this website. If your unemployed and old enough to work then find a job. If you can't work then see what services are out there to help you out if you truly can't work. I know for a few years I was taking care of my sisters kids all day for only a little pay and food, and shelter. It is hard to get the help you need for your dog when you don't have any income because while we can give you the knowledge it is up to you to try to make it work. Remember, Knowledge is very expensive and here it is given out freely for those who wish to use it.


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## brandypup (Jan 23, 2012)

Were can I get lyssin? 
I am also getting 3 yr rabies this saturday for my Chihuahua.


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## chowder (Sep 7, 2008)

Sheltielover25 said:


> Just what I was looking for, thanks so much, Chowder! do you happen to know what it is about these drugs that cause a reaction to the MDR1 gene? I'm just curious on that part.


"Many herding dog breeds are afflicted with a mutation of the multi-drug resistance (mdr1) gene. This gene encodes a protein (P-glycoprotein) that is responsible for removing certain drugs and toxins from the brain. Dogs that carry the mdr1 genetic defect cannot rid their brains of the problem drugs. The result is a neurotoxic buildup that can cause abnormal neurological symptoms and/or death."

Veterinary Clinical Pharmacology Lab at the College of Veterinary Medicine
busteralert.org 
This is the site I got Rocky's tag from. 

I don't agree with everything at the University website so check out the sites you read with caution and form your own opinions. The university claims that it is safe to give all these dogs any ivermectin heartworm medication at the recommended dose, it is only high dose at mange killing levels that will hurt the dogs. There is no way that I would ever consider doing that! 

It is also not just neurological symptoms that they can suffer from with these drugs. My one chow had his heart stop in addition to the neurological effects, another one had the neurological ataxia, another had violent explosive projectile black diarhhea and vomitting from just one pill. I approach all drugs with extreme caution now.


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## chowder (Sep 7, 2008)

brandypup said:


> Were can I get lyssin?
> I am also getting 3 yr rabies this saturday for my Chihuahua.



I am trying to check into that but you might have to find a holistic or natural vet in your area that can help you. I'll keep checking online and see what I can find out because Rocky needs to have a rabies in September and I want to be prepared.


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## brandypup (Jan 23, 2012)

I found one vet that sells it 8$ a pill. Remedies & Nosodes - Charles Loops, DVM

Ok I am finding more using the word Lyssinum 
http://www.elixirs.com/products.cfm?productcode=S94W


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## chowder (Sep 7, 2008)

brandypup said:


> I found one vet that sells it 8$ a pill. Remedies & Nosodes - Charles Loops, DVM
> 
> Ok I am finding more using the word Lyssinum
> Homeopathy for Health


I saw the elixers site. There are differing opinions on what I have found out so far. Some places say you give the dog the lyssin in pellet form for three days before the rabies vaccine, and then three days after. Another place said that you give 1 30 cc dose after the rabies vaccine. And yet a 3rd place said you only give it as a replacement for the rabies vaccine.

The only experience that I actually have with it is an owner on the Havana Silk forum. Her little dog got horrible sick after being vaccinated a few weeks ago. She got the Lyssin an gave it and the dog recovered. This is where I first heard about it. Now I have to do more research!


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## Liz (Sep 27, 2010)

Lyssin - 30c is doseage Give 3 pellets daily for three days before vaccine and 3 pills per day for 7 days after the vaccine. Dose immediatley after the vaccine is given. So say - mon thru wed 3 pills every day ; give the vaccine and pills immedately thursday and next dose is friday for a week. Homeopathy for Health, Products, Books, Kits, Remedies is a good price with good quality merchandise.


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## RCTRIPLEFRESH5 (Feb 11, 2010)

i feed my dog orijen/acana/ other food in that price range i give my dog a tremendously good life.....i o not have a ob now but yes i can afford to treat him well but i will not spend money unnecessarily on a test that is not needed.


bridget246 said:


> I can completely understand where RC is coming from. I came on to this forum for a good brand of kibble to give to Bridget so I could fix her stool related issues. The actual solution was easy but getting to it was not easy! Caused a lot of headaches, griefs upon'd my eyes to more problems than I ever even knew could exist with dogs. Toward the start I felt attacked, freaked out a few times. It was all very overwhelming. I know I said it before, but I'll say it again and again. Thank you gals, and guys for being so patient with me. Helpfully RC will get the understanding he needs to. I hate to say it is going to take time but, it's going to take time.
> 
> To RC: The test isn't something you have to do today. Talk to your dad about it a little more and maybe show him this website. If your unemployed and old enough to work then find a job. If you can't work then see what services are out there to help you out if you truly can't work. I know for a few years I was taking care of my sisters kids all day for only a little pay and food, and shelter. It is hard to get the help you need for your dog when you don't have any income because while we can give you the knowledge it is up to you to try to make it work. Remember, Knowledge is very expensive and here it is given out freely for those who wish to use it.


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## Tobi (Mar 18, 2011)

RCTRIPLEFRESH5 said:


> i'll see how much my vet charges..so he can do it then?
> 
> if you want him to get the test so bad..maybe donate money to me..but as of now....*i can't afford to buy another 6 months of hw, new food,* AND some test that's probably useless.
> 
> saying you won't be sorry for me is kind of harsh...it's not like i have an unlimited amount of funds and a ranch full of horses with my hubby!


It's at that point you should ask yourself "can i really afford to properly take care of a dog?" I have money set aside for tests, injuries, and all of that stuff for my dog, i also have insurance on him through VPI just in the event that something happens it lightens the payment load.


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## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

I found one flea on Snorkels. They haven't had any treatment, and are out in the pastures in grass so high I can only see Rebel's head (well, snorkels isn't in grass that tall but she's in the short grass). I do wonder if just the raw food is helping, although I have been putting DE around and yes I did sprinkle some Sevin dust.


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## chowder (Sep 7, 2008)

Tobi said:


> I've never had a problem with Flea control since being on Raw... we live pretty close to each other, do you have problems up there? He hasn't had comfortis since he was about 5 months old.


Actually, no. We don't have any fleas at all. My neighbors will be complaining like crazy about fleas and we won't have any. I was just trying to get the thread back on subject :wink:

But we do have an incredible amount of ticks. Mostly they seem to be on me. I think I need to eat the dogs food.


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## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

chowder said:


> Actually, no. We don't have any fleas at all. My neighbors will be complaining like crazy about fleas and we won't have any. I was just trying to get the thread back on subject :wink:
> 
> But we do have an incredible amount of ticks. Mostly they seem to be on me. I think I need to eat the dogs food.


Does this mean you don't want to be in the Crabby Old Ladies Club? 

i haven't seen ticks yet. Of course, it's not yet summer. But we have our first crop of mosquitoes. 

I'd like to try the nematodes, but i just don't know how well they would do here when it gets really hot and dry in the summer or if the fire ants would kill them. i could put the nematodes around the foundation of our house because it stays watered, but not the yard.

I'm pretty sure the fire ants have killed the chiggers. I'd rather have the chiggers.


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## DaneMama (Jun 27, 2008)

Enough is enough. Go do something productive....like play with those dogs you all love. Good grief.


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