# Long time raw feeders???



## ShanniBella (Jul 1, 2011)

Hi all,

I am new here but not to forums or dogs. I am very skeptical of the raw diet as I have yet to meet anyone who has been feeding it as there dogs primary diet or for many years. Has anyone here been feeding it for 20 or 30 years or do you know of anybody? I get the whole "biologically and or species appropriate diet" when it comes to feeding raw but what more is it going to do for a dog who is already fed a high quality high protein kibble with added supplements? Is it going to make a great dane who has a lifespan of 7-10 years live until they are 15 or older? I just want to understand the whole raw theory because if I can see enough evidence as to why I should switch then I may take it into consideration. I have just yet to be sold on the idea due to lack of research and the fact that alot of people who feed raw have to at some point go back to kibble because of one reason or another. I have also met people who feed a meal of kibble in the A.M. and raw at night. Any benefits there?? My dog eats grain free, has small stool, great teeth, and a glistening coat but I also give her supplements such as fish oil, ACV, yogurt, and a multi-vitamin. I am very open minded so please enlighten me on this subject  Any links you can point me to would be great as well! Thanks


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## DaneMama (Jun 27, 2008)

Hello and welcome! 

I know several people who have been feeding raw for generations of dogs....on several different raw feeding groups. We have a couple here but they don't post up. I think the longest raw feeder on here who posts is rawfeddogs...Bill who has been raw feeding for 10 years? 

I was a skeptic at one point, so I understand wanting to know more.


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## JayJayisme (Aug 2, 2009)

Read this thread, from beginning to end, then get back to us with your questions...

http://dogfoodchat.com/forum/dog-food-ingredients/2329-backed-scientific-study.html


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## Scarlett_O' (May 19, 2011)

I understand your hesitation...however I havnt met anyone who has had their dogs on ANY commercial diet for that length of time with good results either!

I have aunts and uncles, great aunts and great uncles who have had dogs for 50-60 years, all on crapple...and none of those dogs have live long past 10!:sad:

I plan on having my boys around for at LEAST 15 years if not more!:smile: :wink:


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## Grandiose (Apr 2, 2011)

I find it so interesting that people want to see huge scientific studies and generations of evidence that a raw, species appropriate diet is better fir their digs than kibble. What makes it so interesting to me, is that these people (in general - I am making a general statement, not aimed at any one person in particular) are the same ones who pop into the drive thru to pick up dinner for the family, feed themselves highly processed and refined foods, and never think twice about asking for scientific studies on if it's better or safe.

Where are the unbiased, scientific, non-corporate funded, peer reviewed studies that tell you kibble is the ideal, perfect, healthy diet to promote longevity in dogs and cats?


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## RaisingWolves (Mar 19, 2011)

I've been feeding raw 9 years and would never go back to artificial food (kibble). I can't.
I don't need to read studies to know whole, fresh, living food is better than overly processed, heat damaged, scrap meat bound with cheap cereal fillers.

I think this says it all.
http://dogfoodchat.com/forum/raw-fe...h-dang-sense-commercial-diets-just-weird.html


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## ShanniBella (Jul 1, 2011)

WOW! Lots of die hard passionate people that feed raw . I personally eat very healthy myself and my family included. We don't do fast foods or processed. I cook fresh meats and vegetables every night.....However, I have yet to see any studies that tell me that RAW is the best way to go other than the hear say of die hards who feed it. I guess it's just not for everybody. Dog food has come a long way since purina dog chow and there are more higher quality kibbles out there that are NOT filled with junk scraps and corn. What about Orijen and Acana? Those foods get some of the highest ratings for kibble and it is made with all human grade quality meats. I am just at a loss and am being very sincere....I am not trying to push anyones buttons just want to get an idea as to why it is so much better than a grade A premium kibble. I am doing my research and appreciate everyones feedback. Also thanks for the links, I will read those as well. I want to do what is best for my dog. Thanks


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## sadysaneto (Jun 28, 2011)

ShanniBella said:


> Hi all,
> 
> I am new here but not to forums or dogs. I am very skeptical of the raw diet as I have yet to meet anyone who has been feeding it as there dogs primary diet or for many years. Has anyone here been feeding it for 20 or 30 years or do you know of anybody? I get the whole "biologically and or species appropriate diet" when it comes to feeding raw but what more is it going to do for a dog who is already fed a high quality high protein kibble with added supplements? Is it going to make a great dane who has a lifespan of 7-10 years live until they are 15 or older? I just want to understand the whole raw theory because if I can see enough evidence as to why I should switch then I may take it into consideration. I have just yet to be sold on the idea due to lack of research and the fact that alot of people who feed raw have to at some point go back to kibble because of one reason or another. I have also met people who feed a meal of kibble in the A.M. and raw at night. Any benefits there?? My dog eats grain free, has small stool, great teeth, and a glistening coat but I also give her supplements such as fish oil, ACV, yogurt, and a multi-vitamin. I am very open minded so please enlighten me on this subject  Any links you can point me to would be great as well! Thanks


if you feed ur dog with a high qulit protein kibble, that´s fine and dandy.

but if you say its high quality because it says so on the package...

i think there are 3 things that make me stick to raw:

1. I know what im giving my dogs

2. there are no real high qualit kibble in brazil

3.i wouldn´t spend myu life on protein shakes, protein bars, carbl bars and vitamin pills, would you? (and they should have all you need - protein, carbs and vitamins)


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## sadysaneto (Jun 28, 2011)

ShanniBella said:


> WOW! Lots of die hard passionate people that feed raw . I personally eat very healthy myself and my family included. We don't do fast foods or processed. I cook fresh meats and vegetables every night.....However, I have yet to see any studies that tell me that RAW is the best way to go other than the hear say of die hards who feed it. I guess it's just not for everybody. Dog food has come a long way since purina dog chow and there are more higher quality kibbles out there that are NOT filled with junk scraps and corn. What about Orijen and Acana? Those foods get some of the highest ratings for kibble and it is made with all human grade quality meats. I am just at a loss and am being very sincere....I am not trying to push anyones buttons just want to get an idea as to why it is so much better than a grade A premium kibble. I am doing my research and appreciate everyones feedback. Also thanks for the links, I will read those as well. I want to do what is best for my dog. Thanks


I think you´re missing the point.

we´re not die hard passionate about raw, we´re die hard passionate about our dogs 

that said, ´i´d give a kibble like orijen wo worries if I could (just not for the whole life of a dog)


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## Cain (Feb 14, 2011)

ShanniBella said:


> WOW! Lots of die hard passionate people that feed raw . I personally eat very healthy myself and my family included. We don't do fast foods or processed. I cook fresh meats and vegetables every night.....However, I have yet to see any studies that tell me that RAW is the best way to go other than the hear say of die hards who feed it. I guess it's just not for everybody. Dog food has come a long way since purina dog chow and there are more higher quality kibbles out there that are NOT filled with junk scraps and corn. What about Orijen and Acana? Those foods get some of the highest ratings for kibble and it is made with all human grade quality meats. I am just at a loss and am being very sincere....I am not trying to push anyones buttons just want to get an idea as to why it is so much better than a grade A premium kibble. I am doing my research and appreciate everyones feedback. Also thanks for the links, I will read those as well. I want to do what is best for my dog. Thanks


You don't feed yourself nor family processed foods, so why does your dog differ? Kibble is processed food, regardless of the manufacturer. Just because something is sociable accepted does not make it the best choice. People here are what I like to refer to as logical. If canines were invented along side of the invention of kibble, then it would make perfect sense as to what to feed them. But they haven't, they have been around for quite a while, and way before kibble. Yet their genetic roots still live today in the wild, yet we reflect our nutritional needs onto a very different species of animal. Fruits, vegetables, and starches? Humans only need some of these, and I've yet to see any scientific study of wolves picking berries, and digging up potatoes.


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## 3Musketeers (Nov 4, 2010)

In the end processed food is still processed food. 
Example : Capn Crunch made with "fresh fruits" + vitamins added will never ever even come close to eating actual fruits, no matter how much actual fruit is blended, dried, cooked, and processed into the cereal. By the time it comes out as a little puff it has already lost out on a lot of nutritional value, sure they make up for it with synthetic vitamins and minerals, but it's not the same.

Yes, kibble has come a long way since Dog Chow, Orijen is great, in fact even most people nowadays would probably be healthier if they ate nothing but a "high quality balanced" cereal, however it still doesn't compare to a fresh species-appropriate diet. 
Science is always changing, one day eggs are good for you, the next day the tell you it's bad. 
What about all the vitamins and minerals which we may not even know exist, or that we cannot validate the essential-ness of? Although science definitely has it's place, to rely on it for everything is an arrogance we humans sometimes have. When kibble first came out, many cats were dying of taurine deficiency, woops, they went and added synthetic taurine, a lot of kibble eating pets still show many signs of disease *later on in life*, diseases which are almost certainly related to diet, diabetes, pancreatitis, obesity, just to name a few. Sure many of these may not happen with the higher-quality foods. 
But when it comes down to who to trust, will I trust what these companies and "scientists" claim to know? Knowing that in the past they have quite a history of missing things and that there is much to find out still. Or would I rather trust what nature has had right for hundreds of thousands of years? I may not know or be able to tell you everything in that hunk of raw beef, what happens when you cook it and what gets lost, but the point is, it shouldn't have to get cooked, processed the bejeezus out of it and made into pellets later needing synthetic vitamins to make up for... whatever it lost, in whatever quantities the AAFCO *thinks* should be added back.

I mean Science Diet has all this "scientific evidence" don't they? But we all know it's total batpoop.


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## doggoblin (Jun 6, 2011)

I'd like to post a link to the ORIJEN WHITE PAPER
The Biologically Appropriate Food Concept and the Dietary Needs of Dogs and Cats. I found it an interesting read and useful in my decision making process. Doing your own research I feel is a must.

What I will say is I haven't found much scientific evidence for raw. Saying that the only anti-raw information I found which was scientifically based was that of "more bacteria being passed through stool" and the like. I found this lack is also quite telling when you consider the large companies who could produce reports.

We have known kibble fed dogs living over 10 years, we even once knew a "vegetarian" dog which lived over 10 years. For me it's not about getting our dogs simply surviving, it's getting the dogs thriving.


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## DoglovingSenior (Jun 26, 2011)

I have fed the raw diet for 12 years. I have noticed the following & they DO seem to live longer & thrive, not just survive. The dog that got me started-though he didn't live to benefit was a Rottweiler who lived 8 years. I know Rottie lovers & ethical breeders of Rotties who have never had one live past 8 or 9. My dogs used to have problems with "hot spots" the ones that I had when I began raw NEVER had another one, the dogs that I had afterwards NEVER had one at all. They are very active for a longer period. They only need a vet visit once a year for the heartworm test & Rabies vaccination. Ages Rottie 14 yrs, Rottie 12 yrs, Rottie 12.5 years, Pitbull 10 years & you would think that he was a young dog from the way he acts.

I remember driving the 300 +mi. to Atlanta because I couldn't buy what I thought was the BEST kibble here. My dogs eat what I do, just raw. Human grade meat not meat from the Diseased, Dying or Dead animals. There is an interesting video about HOW kibble is made is you wish I will get the url as it is in my bookmarks. I have had people tell me that it makes them want live people and animals-nonsense. The kibble fed Rottie who never got to eat raw. Would kill anything that ventured over our 7' privacy fence. My 12.5 yr. old who has eaten raw since he was 41/2 mths when I got him herded sheep, and has never killed anything. I do hope that you'll try the raw meat & bones diet, I do not think that you will have ANY regrets.


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## DoglovingSenior (Jun 26, 2011)

Ask yourself WHO is doing the rating?


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## DoglovingSenior (Jun 26, 2011)

I have just yet to be sold on the idea due to lack of research and the fact that alot of people who feed raw have to at some point go back to kibble because of one reason or another. I have also met people who feed a meal of kibble in the A.M. and raw at night. Any benefits there?? 

The top reasons for going back to kibble are usually that (1)people feel it is easier, or they are (2) worried about salmonella etc.My vet gave me a slew of reasons & at their first few blood tests after the raw was worried about certain levels- I told her that raw had not been around long enough & none of the kibble companies were going to establish those levels for raw food. She eventually found that their levels (creatinin)? didn't really matter as they were SO healthy-the proof was before her eyes- until mine, she had never treated a Rottweiler over 8! She now feeds her CH's raw. 
What is the point of the dual feeding, the different foods have different digestive times - the raw about 2 hrs, the kibble about 8 (perhaps with some of the newer kibbles it has improved). I just do not understand how this dual feeding . . . is the kibble cancelling out the benefits of the raw? Oh well, "to each his own". 

I am a "die-hard" only as it concerns MY dogs. After getting strange looks at the grocery check-out, and having people who really did NOT want to know about the benefits,though they asked the questions-I stopped talking about it. Forums like this one give me a place to go & be with those who understand & sometimes, those who sincerely do want to learn.


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## RaisingWolves (Mar 19, 2011)

DoglovingSenior said:


> I am a "die-hard" only as it concerns MY dogs. After getting strange looks at the grocery check-out, and having people who really did NOT want to know about the benefits,though they asked the questions-I stopped talking about it. Forums like this one give me a place to go & be with those who understand & sometimes, those who sincerely do want to learn.


I am a die-hard too when it comes to my dogs and their health. 
I just bought a basket full of meat that was on sale last week at the grocery store and the check-out girl (very young) commented on how much meat I was buying. I told her it was for my doggies and she said, "Wow, I'll bet your dogs have beautiful coats!" I responded, "Yes, and beautiful, clean teeth too.":wink: 
I was so happy to meet a young person who didn't find feeding whole food to a dog strange.:biggrin:


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## RawFedDogs (Jun 16, 2008)

I have been feeding raw for 9 years. I have an 11yo Great Dane and a 6yo Dane. The 11yo hasn't eaten any carbs in 9 years and the 6yo hasn't eaten carbs since he was 12 weeks old. For the life of me, I can never understand why some people insist on scientific studies to prove the benefits of a raw diet but don't insist on scientific studies proving the benefits of kibble. BTW: There are no studies that prove kibble makes a dog healthier or live longer than a raw diet of meat, bones, and organs. The raw diet has been around for a million years and canines have thrived on it all during that time. Kibble has only been around for about 75 years and only popular for about 50 and no one asks for scientific proof of this artificial food? How does that make sense? Don't you think if kibble companies COULD prove that kibble were healthier than raw, they would have done so way back in the beginning? They can't prove it.

Here is a study you might be interested in. It is done by two vets in Belgum. It indicates that dogs fed a home made diet (real whole fresh foods) live an average of 39 months longer than dogs fed commercial food.
Long Life Study Summary
_http://www.ukrmb.co.uk/images/LippertSapySummary.pdf_
Actual Study
_http://www.ukrmb.co.uk/images/LippertSapyFullReport.pdf_

Now, let's talk about kibble for a few minutes. Orijen is probably the best kibble but it's still kibble. The words "human grade" and "human quality" have no legal definition in the dog food world. Neither do words like "Premium" or "Holistic".

Let's do the math. 
_"Now when I go to the grocer or health food store and find these types of ingredients in raw, unprocessed, fresh packaged form, I don't see hardly anything for $1 a pound, let alone 50 cents. Some of the organic meats are more than $15 a pound! Something's afoul. But people are just not putting two and two together. How could a producer buy such expensive ingredients (as they are leading the public to believe they do) transport them to their "human grade" factory, grind, mix, extrude, retort, freeze, package, ship, advertise and pay salespeople and hefty margins to distributors, brokers and retailers and then sell them at retail for less than the cost of the bare starting materials? They can't. So obviously manufactured pet foods making such claims are misleading (to put it gently). They may have organic filet mignon and caviar in the food but it would have to be an inconsequential sprinkle at best. Consumers must do the math and get realistic in their expectations."_
http://www.wysong.net/health/hl_969.shtml

One more point about kibble. Most all kibble has chicken meal or some other kind of meal in it. To read promotional material you would think that chicken meal is much more nutritious than chicken meat. Let me tell you about this little experience I had a a couple of years ago.

I went to my exwife's family reunion today (in 2009) and while listening to a conversation I heard a guy say, "I'm still in the chicken business." A little while later I approached him and asked him what he did in the chicken business. He said he was manager of the de-boning section of a chicken processing plant. He went to great lengths explaining how the deboned chickens then at the end I asked what they did with the bones.

He explained that what was left over was called "frames". I knew that. I have fed chicken frames to my dogs before. About 6 or 7 years ago I paid $.14/lb for them so they were very cheap. I don't know what they sell for today. 

Chicken frames are the body of the chicken after the wings, legs and human usable meat is removed. As I have said before and he confirmed, frames are basically bones and connective tissue with what little meat remains after they take off all they can. 

He told me the frames were sent to another location and ground down into a powder called "chicken meal". After that, they are shipped to "dog food factories" and "hot dog plants".

He said that if you look at the ingredients list on hot dogs, you will see listed on some brands, "chicken parts". Those chicken parts are chicken meal.

So basically chicken meal is made up mostly of bones, connective tissue and what little meat is left after it has been removed for human consumption.


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

i think genetics plays a role in life span....as does the food we eat, both as humans and our animals....

if i were only to live fifty years, i'd like to know that it wasn't because of the food i ate that made me die...rather it was some other cause...

there is no scientific proof....either way that raw will make your dog live longer....

there is objective findings that raw gives your dog's immune system a fighting chance to take care of the ups and downs of homeostasis, which is the stability of the organism....and that stability should be little peaks and valleys as opposed wild swings of up and down...

if i have a kibble dog next to my raw fed dog, the appearance alone is astoundingly different....and it's objective, since i can hear, see, smell, touch...and that is objective.

if i feed raw to my dog, i'm giving my dog an added boost to the quality of life....i can't honestly say that raw will make a dog live longer....we all have a built in expiration date...but what i can do is hopefully do everything i can so that my dog's life is not shortened....


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## Liz (Sep 27, 2010)

I don't know exactly what information you are looking for but you probably won't find many scientific studies. I have only fed raw for a year but I can tell you my then 10 yearld collie went from a sweet, old man to a vigorous, in his prime still dog. He again runs, plays and enjoy the younger dogs in our home as well as long walks and car rides. My middle aged fatty girl who was looking old and acting cranky before her time is now svelte and energetic and happy again. My first raw litter of pups produced by my 7 year old girl was the fittest, lovliest litter yet. Even their temeperment was calm and happy. My 7 month old from that litter is fantastic looking and so fit we are accused of road working her at too young an age. She only runs around with the other dogs. Everybody has gorgeous coats you want to run your hands through, no stinky breath, virtually no body odor, beautiful teeth, and happy, happy, happy. I never had this on kibble and believe me I paid a small fortune to feed these dogs really good kibble. Don't even get me started on the supplements and addditions to their kibble. Anyway I hope you see your way to letting your pup eat what he was built to eat. I know not everyone has the room (freezer) or desire to feed this way but it can be done and done well for no more than you feed kibble. Good luck


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## sadysaneto (Jun 28, 2011)

Liz said:


> I don't know exactly what information you are looking for but you probably won't find many scientific studies. I have only fed raw for a year but I can tell you my then 10 yearld collie went from a sweet, old man to a vigorous, in his prime still dog. He again runs, plays and enjoy the younger dogs in our home as well as long walks and car rides. My middle aged fatty girl who was looking old and acting cranky before her time is now svelte and energetic and happy again. My first raw litter of pups produced by my 7 year old girl was the fittest, lovliest litter yet. Even their temeperment was calm and happy. My 7 month old from that litter is fantastic looking and so fit we are accused of road working her at too young an age. She only runs around with the other dogs. Everybody has gorgeous coats you want to run your hands through, no stinky breath, virtually no body odor, beautiful teeth, and happy, happy, happy. I never had this on kibble and believe me I paid a small fortune to feed these dogs really good kibble. Don't even get me started on the supplements and addditions to their kibble. Anyway I hope you see your way to letting your pup eat what he was built to eat. I know not everyone has the room (freezer) or desire to feed this way but it can be done and done well for no more than you feed kibble. Good luck


yeah, same here.

just the other day, me and wife got home from our walk with the puppies and our 12 yrs old beagle, who, prior to raw, just stayed there, lying, came begging for a walk.

and she lasted a good half hour 0o !!!!!

again, i can´t say its because of raw, what i can tell you it that it happened after raw.

that, and her demodecic mange gone away


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## lucky (Jan 8, 2011)

I was watching a programme only last week, it was about the many different ways animals are used after the human grade meat is taken, the programme was focusing on cow/pig skin, the guy said that after the skin is put through a few machines to strip every teeny last bit of meat off it is kept to make leather, he said the small pieces with tears/holes in goes off to the dog and cat food factories .. to me that is enough evidence that says we will never *really* know what is in kibble, it doesn't say on the pack *dried out, stripped of meat cow skin*. 
I feed raw because I want to know exactly what my dog is getting and I want her to thrive. My dads fiance can't see it, she is always trying to convince me kibble is best and that raw harbours too much bacteria :suspicious: bearing in mind her 3 year old yorkie has had to have numerous teeth removed due to decay, all her dogs have dry coats, gloopy eyes, basically just look unhealthy, they even eat their own poop, (they are on supermarket brand kibble so that explains it all) I have tried my hardest to make her see but some people just see what they want to see hwell:. The old lady dachshund that they have has been fed kibble all her life, she is now 11 and looks about 16, the few teeth she has left are just rotten, she just looks years older than she is.
My sister has her JRT mix on a "high quality" kibble and he is not unhealthy looking, he has nice teeth, nice coat etc but he is only 1 year old, this kibble may well take it's toll on his body as he ages, time will tell I guess. 
All I know is that lucky is absolutely thriving, she is glowing and that is due to her raw diet


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## schtuffy (May 17, 2010)

I believe the general consensus that gets thrown around a lot whenever questions like these arise is that feeding raw isn't just about prolonging life (I mean, all of us on here obviously love our dogs, and would do anything to make them live as long as us if we could!), but the other important thing is about improving the quality of life. Us raw feeders have probably questioned raw feeding at some point or other, but made the decision that it was best for our dogs. It's more than just the processed food and unknown ingredients; once you see how happy your dog is chomping on a raw meaty bone, you just never want to go back :smile:


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## sozzle (May 18, 2011)

Although I have only owned my ex racing greyhound for 4 months I have noticed that his coat is much softer and shinier than it was when we got him and was being fed kibble. I did start off feeding him kibble in the morning and raw at night all the time doing lots of research, buying books and reading lots of sites. In the end common sense won and I just realised that real food for my dog was what was going to keep him in optimum health (the same with my family). If after 6 months there was no improvement then I would review the situation, but of course the results speak for themselves and he is just SO SO excited to be eating bones and raw meat. I love him dearly and want to do the best for him now he is a domestic family pet as we all do for our beloved animals. He is very content and I hope lives a long happy healthy life. 
ps.When he was on kibble he would practically inhale it and it was all over within a matter of seconds, now he spends time chewing and tearing at his food and I can see he is having a good time!


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## swolek (Mar 31, 2011)

I've only been feeding raw since March (and pre-made raw a bit earlier than that).

But I do know that my dad's grandfather (who died before I was born) was a German Shepherd breeder. He apparently produced amazing dogs, mostly for schutzhund work. He fed raw and bred for 20+ years so I guess he'd be a "long time raw feeder".


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## SilverBeat (Jan 16, 2011)

3Musketeers said:


> In the end processed food is still processed food.


This x 100. The highest quality kibble is still processed. Same goes for canned, dehydrated raw, and pre-made raw. 

For me it was just common sense, I researched enough to make sure I could handle "balancing" the diet [super easy] and dove right in. I've only been feeding raw a few months but I've seen Wallaby improve by leaps and bounds, and I know I'll never feed kibble. Wallaby is my first dog and was raw fed from day one.


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## CorgiPaws (Mar 31, 2009)

ShanniBella said:


> WOW! Lots of die hard passionate people that feed raw . I personally eat very healthy myself and my family included. We don't do fast foods or processed. I cook fresh meats and vegetables every night.....However, I have yet to see any studies that tell me that RAW is the best way to go other than the hear say of die hards who feed it.


I think you just answered your own question all by yourself. :biggrin: 
Why don't you eat processed foods? Why don't you eat fast food? That's the same reasons why raw is ideal for our pets. Healthy, whole foods free of additives, chemicals, sugars, dyes, etc will always be healthier than anything processed. Always. 
As for studies: you simply won't find them. There is no money trail back to prey model raw, unless you count the meat companies, but I just don't see them doing a study on it for dogs any time soon. Kibble feeding has plenty of studies though! Of course they do, it's a HUGE money making industry. But, anyone who has done a 6th grade science fair project knows you can twist a study to give you the results you want. :wink:
Fast food companies try to make their food seem not bad for you, and some even try to make their grease filled food seem healthy. (what a joke...) Of course they will! If you buy it, they make money! Well, same goes for kibble companies. They are going to market, present, and claim that these are great, healthy foods for dogs. In the end, it's all about the bottom line. 



ShanniBella said:


> I guess it's just not for everybody.


No, raw feeding isn't every person's cup of tea, but it's still the healthiest thing for every dog... regardless of what their owners want to do. I have a really difficult time making a nice healthy dinner for myself every night, but I sure would be better off it I did!



ShanniBella said:


> Dog food has come a long way since purina dog chow and there are more higher quality kibbles out there that are NOT filled with junk scraps and corn. What about Orijen and Acana? Those foods get some of the highest ratings for kibble and it is made with all human grade quality meats.\


Absolutely. Kibble has come leaps and bounds from Dog Chow and Pedigree and the like. However, while it is made with "human grade" ingredients, it doesn't change that 1. there is zero regulation on the dog food companies, really, they could claim Unicorn Blood as an ingredient, and I'm sure it would fly... and 2. In the end of the day, it's still a processed food with many many unnecessary ingredients. 

What if I told you, there there's a new food on the market for people. It's balanced, and made from only the best, healthiest ingredients. But, to preserve shelf life, it's also rendered and processed into cereal. Eat this new food from a box every meal, for the rest of your life, and you're set! Would you buy it? Would you honestly believe that a processed food, made from good ingredients or not, would be the best thing for any species to thrive on? No, you wouldn't! You're much smarter than that! You know the faults of processed foods! The same exact logic applies to pet foods. 




ShanniBella said:


> I am just at a loss and am being very sincere....I am not trying to push anyones buttons just want to get an idea as to why it is so much better than a grade A premium kibble. I am doing my research and appreciate everyones feedback. Also thanks for the links, I will read those as well. I want to do what is best for my dog. Thanks


I applaud your desire to learn. I think all raw feeders have been in your exact position before, hearing about raw feeding, not quite sure if it's the best, wanting to learn more. I once had serious doubts about raw feeding, and then one day it just clicked. It's whole fresh foods! It's not processed, rendered, cooked, etc. It's chicken.. that LOOKS like chicken! Its eggs... that LOOK like eggs! It's beef... that LOOKS like beef! No more unidentified pellets processed beyond recognition. 
I am envious of your dedication and discipline regarding your own diet, it's something I am still working on. Giving my dogs the healthiest food I can sure is easier!


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## naturalfeddogs (Jan 6, 2011)

ShanniBella said:


> Hi all,
> 
> I am new here but not to forums or dogs. I am very skeptical of the raw diet as I have yet to meet anyone who has been feeding it as there dogs primary diet or for many years. Has anyone here been feeding it for 20 or 30 years or do you know of anybody? I get the whole "biologically and or species appropriate diet" when it comes to feeding raw but what more is it going to do for a dog who is already fed a high quality high protein kibble with added supplements? Is it going to make a great dane who has a lifespan of 7-10 years live until they are 15 or older? I just want to understand the whole raw theory because if I can see enough evidence as to why I should switch then I may take it into consideration. I have just yet to be sold on the idea due to lack of research and the fact that alot of people who feed raw have to at some point go back to kibble because of one reason or another. I have also met people who feed a meal of kibble in the A.M. and raw at night. Any benefits there?? My dog eats grain free, has small stool, great teeth, and a glistening coat but I also give her supplements such as fish oil, ACV, yogurt, and a multi-vitamin. I am very open minded so please enlighten me on this subject  Any links you can point me to would be great as well! Thanks


I was once a skeptic as well. If you just try it for a month, you will see the difference in a raw vs. kibble fed dog. Its really apparant once you start. That would be all the evidence you need!!


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## naturalfeddogs (Jan 6, 2011)

As far as scientific studies go, why WOULD there be any? It's a natural diet. What did dogs thousands of years ago eat? Did they run down to the nearest grocery for a bag of kibble? What about wolves/coyotes? I've yet to see one buy a bag of kibble. They eat a variety of different protiens, organs and bones. I guess really there has been studies done- the ones on the diets and behaviors of wild carnivores. That is how we know what we do about them, which in turn is how we know how to raw feed our dogs and cats. That would probably be the biggest "scientific" study there is.


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## lucky (Jan 8, 2011)

naturalfeddogs said:


> As far as scientific studies go, why WOULD there be any? It's a natural diet. What did dogs thousands of years ago eat? Did they run down to the nearest grocery for a bag of kibble? What about wolves/coyotes? I've yet to see one buy a bag of kibble. They eat a variety of different protiens, organs and bones. I guess really there has been studies done- the ones on the diets and behaviors of wild carnivores. That is how we know what we do about them, which in turn is how we know how to raw feed our dogs and cats. That would probably be the biggest "scientific" study there is.


Couldn't have said it better myself


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## ShanniBella (Jul 1, 2011)

PuppyPaws said:


> I think you just answered your own question all by yourself. :biggrin: Why don't you eat processed foods? Why don't you eat fast food? That's the same reasons why raw is ideal for our pets. Healthy, whole foods free of additives, chemicals, sugars, dyes, etc will always be healthier than anything processed. Always. As for studies: you simply won't find them. There is no money trail back to prey model raw, unless you count the meat companies, but I just don't see them doing a study on it for dogs any time soon. Kibble feeding has plenty of studies though! Of course they do, it's a HUGE money making industry. But, anyone who has done a 6th grade science fair project knows you can twist a study to give you the results you want. :wink:Fast food companies try to make their food seem not bad for you, and some even try to make their grease filled food seem healthy. (what a joke...) Of course they will! If you buy it, they make money! Well, same goes for kibble companies. They are going to market, present, and claim that these are great, healthy foods for dogs. In the end, it's all about the bottom line. *No, raw feeding isn't every person's cup of tea, but it's still the healthiest thing for every dog... regardless of what their owners want to do. I have a really difficult time making a nice healthy dinner for myself every night, but I sure would be better off it I did!Absolutely. Kibble has come leaps and bounds from Dog Chow and Pedigree and the like. However, while it is made with "human grade" ingredients, it doesn't change that 1. there is zero regulation on the dog food companies, really, they could claim Unicorn Blood as an ingredient, and I'm sure it would fly... and 2. In the end of the day, it's still a processed food with many many unnecessary ingredients. What if I told you, there there's a new food on the market for people. It's balanced, and made from only the best, healthiest ingredients. But, to preserve shelf life, it's also rendered and processed into cereal. Eat this new food from a box every meal, for the rest of your life, and you're set! Would you buy it? Would you honestly believe that a processed food, made from good ingredients or not, would be the best thing for any species to thrive on? No, you wouldn't! You're much smarter than that! You know the faults of processed foods! The same exact logic applies to pet foods. I applaud your desire to learn. I think all raw feeders have been in your exact position before, hearing about raw feeding, not quite sure if it's the best, wanting to learn more. I once had serious doubts about raw feeding, and then one day it just clicked. It's whole fresh foods! It's not processed, rendered, cooked, etc. It's chicken.. that LOOKS like chicken! Its eggs... that LOOK like eggs! It's beef... that LOOKS like beef! No more unidentified pellets processed beyond recognition. I am envious of your dedication and discipline regarding your own diet, it's something I am still working on. Giving my dogs the healthiest food I can sure is easier!


Thank you PuppyPaws for the great info and for understanding my hesitation. I do however feel as though more people worry about what there dogs eat more than themselves and that there dogs eat better than them. I see it on other dog forums I am on. Owners are overweight and unhealthy while there dogs reap the benefits of a healthy unprocessed diet and excercise. Then the owner turns around and goes to eat at Mcdonalds or Burger king while there dog eats the bowl of raw chicken, veggies, and vitamin supplements. It really doesn't make any sense to me. Also, you guys keep saying kibble is processed and I get that, but unless you are shopping at an all natural organic grocery store your dog is still getting hormones, antibiotics, and all kinds of preservatives pumped into the meats so this is why I don't think it is a "win win" situation and that even though raw may be best in some owners eyes there are still plenty of recalls done on raw meats every year as well as kibble. 

Unless you live on a farm and can slaughter the cows, chickens, goats, etc. yourself .....you really don't know where your source of meat is coming from except from the grocery store or where ever you order your bulk from. Alls I am trying to say is that if you were to buy preservative, hormone, and antibiotic free raw meat for your dog it is going to be way more expensive than a kibble diet by far. I just went food shopping the other day and I love salmon....I go to the fish counter and order a pound, the clerk asks me if I want the wild caught or farm raised? I said what's the difference and he tells me "well, the farm raised has added preservatives and chemicals in it where as the wild caught is free of all the additives". So, lets be honest....do all of you feed all natural organic preservative, hormone, and antibiotic free meats? I find it hard to believe that you do. 

Now, before you all jump down my throat I am being VERY sincere in asking these questions because I want to learn more about the raw diet. It is hard to tell the tone in a persons typing over the net but I am in no way trying to rude or disrespectful. I want my girl to get the best of the best but being a single mom I am not sure if I can afford that kind of diet. Right now she eats Acana kibble and I supplement with all natural wild salmon oil, organic ACV, organic yogurt, MSM, and glucosamine. I also give her some cooked meats and fish on a regular basis along with some raw veggies...(she loves carrots) I try to give her a variety of things because afterall variety is the best to have in any diet. Again I thank you all for the kind replies :biggrin:


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## sadysaneto (Jun 28, 2011)

ShanniBella said:


> Thank you PuppyPaws for the great info and for understanding my hesitation. I do however feel as though more people worry about what there dogs eat more than themselves and that there dogs eat better than them. I see it on other dog forums I am on. Owners are overweight and unhealthy while there dogs reap the benefits of a healthy unprocessed diet and excercise. Then the owner turns around and goes to eat at Mcdonalds or Burger king while there dog eats the bowl of raw chicken, veggies, and vitamin supplements. It really doesn't make any sense to me. Also, you guys keep saying kibble is processed and I get that, but unless you are shopping at an all natural organic grocery store your dog is still getting hormones, antibiotics, and all kinds of preservatives pumped into the meats so this is why I don't think it is a "win win" situation and that even though raw may be best in some owners eyes there are still plenty of recalls done on raw meats every year as well as kibble.
> 
> Unless you live on a farm and can slaughter the cows, chickens, goats, etc. yourself .....you really don't know where your source of meat is coming from except from the grocery store or where ever you order your bulk from. Alls I am trying to say is that if you were to buy preservative, hormone, and antibiotic free raw meat for your dog it is going to be way more expensive than a kibble diet by far. I just went food shopping the other day and I love salmon....I go to the fish counter and order a pound, the clerk asks me if I want the wild caught or farm raised? I said what's the difference and he tells me "well, the farm raised has added preservatives and chemicals in it where as the wild caught is free of all the additives". So, lets be honest....do all of you feed all natural organic preservative, hormone, and antibiotic free meats? I find it hard to believe that you do.
> 
> Now, before you all jump down my throat I am being VERY sincere in asking these questions because I want to learn more about the raw diet. It is hard to tell the tone in a persons typing over the net but I am in no way trying to rude or disrespectful. I want my girl to get the best of the best but being a single mom I am not sure if I can afford that kind of diet. Right now she eats Acana kibble and I supplement with all natural wild salmon oil, organic ACV, organic yogurt, MSM, and glucosamine. I also give her some cooked meats and fish on a regular basis along with some raw veggies...(she loves carrots) I try to give her a variety of things because afterall variety is the best to have in any diet. Again I thank you all for the kind replies :biggrin:


we all eat junk food, processed food, etc.

thing is - is it all we eat?

cos when u feed kibble for life, all you dog ever gonna eat is processed food.

but, "it´s complete, balanced, etc" ...

it could be, but would you live on protein shakes, carb bars and vitamin pills? cos it would also be complete and balanced...

and, sure, you may not know where it is coming from, unless you live in a farm, etc.

but at least you know what it is 

but, on the other hand, is there any cientific study claiming that kibble is better for dogs than raw?

it would be a blast to read one of these.

btw, by all means don´t take me as being rude, i´m not, I had those same doubts, i´ve gave up starting on raw many, many, times.

but as my beagle was getting older, i simply didnt want to keep giving her heavy medication and finally said, hey, what the heck, she´s almost dying anyway, she can´t get any worse, all her fur is gone, her skin is scaly and black, her eyes are shut, her ear is always with some inflemmation, and she stinks like rotten meat, she doesn´t even get up a lot.

I wouldn´t even pet my dog with my hands...

thank god i did it, it took less than a month fot she to became a puppy again, she´s beautiful, her coat is shining, she doesnt smell, she´s active.

I i can pet my old lady again


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## nykea (Jun 15, 2011)

ShanniBella said:


> Also, you guys keep saying kibble is processed and I get that, but unless you are shopping at an all natural organic grocery store your dog is still getting hormones, antibiotics, and all kinds of preservatives pumped into the meats


You are probably right, but compared to dry food, the meat used in producing dry food comes from the exact same sources, I haven't seen any organic dog kibble (although I'm not saying there are none! - just like there are people here who feed raw organic), so the dogs are getting the hormones and antibiotics anyway. PLUS all the conservatives and by-products of processing. So although I agree with you that "our" way of feeding is not completely natural and chemical free, it's still better than kibble. Plus you get all the benefits of exercise, teeth cleaning and just pure pleasure your dog has eating....


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## Chocx2 (Nov 16, 2009)

Just thought I would put my thought in also. I had never heard of raw until my dog, young dog, got allergies. I was frantic, she was miserable and breaking my heart. So I just 
jumped in hoping that it would help my dog. And it did, it helped her so well that I put her brother on raw too. He wasn't sick, but he looked better after changing to raw sooo, now all of my dogs, four of them are on raw and I can't say enough good things about all the help I got from everyone on this forum. No its not always perfect but dogs and people always have a bad day every now and again. Thats all the proof I need!!


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## Quossum (Jul 6, 2011)

It's funny this thread comes up right when I join this board. I may be new here, but I have been feeding raw for about 15 years now.

Raw is no more expensive than the very best ultra-high quality kibble (a bag of which I do keep on hand for emergencies), and it just plain makes more sense evolutionarily. Part of the cost of dog ownership, in my opinion, is feeding the animal appropriately.

It is logical that the further removed from nature a food item is, the worse it is. Actual meat (even non-organic) is leagues and leagues closer to nature than any processed food. As a human, I should be eating food that's close to nature and suited for my biology, and I try to (though don't always succeed). My dogs deserve the same, only I have more willpower when it comes to them than to myself!

I have a Borzoi right now who is over 12 years old--that's very good for such a large dog. She's eaten raw since the day she joined me as a tiny puppy. When I took her in to my present vet at age 10, he could not believe she was that age, based on her overall amazing condition. He kept saying, "She's ten? Really, ten?" She looks like a five-year-old. She's never had a dental in her life--granted, she could probably use one now, as her canines are getting there, but her molars are still practically spotless.

ShanniBella, it almost sounds like you want reassurance that it's okay to feed a high-quality kibble (forgive me if I misread your posts) instead of raw. Sure, it's fine, and many dogs do great on kibble. Many humans do perfectly fine over a lifetime of eating processed and inappropriate food. But raw is the most biologically, evolutionarily sound diet that dogs can eat. It just is.

Zoos don't need to refer to a scientific study of pandas for "proof" that they need to eat bamboo; they don't need to develop "Panda Chow" made with 100% organic bamboo; they just need to watch what pandas in the wild do (eat bamboo) and then, if they keep one in captivity, give it plenty of freakin' bamboo!

Good luck in all,
--Q


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## D'Lynn (Jun 20, 2011)

While there may be few studies indicating that a raw diet is best for our domesticated carnivores, there are plenty of studies in human nutrition indicating that poor health in humans is caused or exacerbated by overly processed convenience foods--ie human kibble. Same thing really. Considering that dogs have been used as surrogates in studies concerning humans I feel quite comfortable turning the tables. Within the parameters of our species differences, what is good for me is good for my dog and vice versa. 

I have to admit that my daughter and I haven't always eaten an optimal diet. It will likely take some time to achieve that, but any progress is good. My four-legged family's needs have been a major factor in improving the diet of all the family. My family consists of one adult, middle-aged primate, one pre-adolescent primate, one 14 week old feline, and one 4 year old Japanese Chin. The four leggers are small enough to eat whatever falls off the cutting board. They do need more bone and organ meat than a typical American diet provides but actually, the two leggers need more organ meat as well. 

I am a single mother on a low fixed income. The expense of a good diet for any of us, never mind the critters, is definitely an issue. I have been researching ways to eat more fresh, organic meats and produce without going broke in the process. It is definitely doable. I've found a couple of CSA's (community supported agriculture) and will be purchasing shares in a couple of those soon. This will not only give my family local, organic, seasonal produce and grass-fed meat and eggs but will support local family farms as well. This feeds my soul along with the body.


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## lucky (Jan 8, 2011)

Quossum said:


> It's funny this thread comes up right when I join this board. I may be new here, but I have been feeding raw for about 15 years now.
> 
> Raw is no more expensive than the very best ultra-high quality kibble (a bag of which I do keep on hand for emergencies), and it just plain makes more sense evolutionarily. Part of the cost of dog ownership, in my opinion, is feeding the animal appropriately.
> 
> ...


Great post :thumb:


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## Liz (Sep 27, 2010)

No we don't feed all organic. Although through our co-op we do get some very clean meats made available to us. The dogs eat alot of what we eat. I know exactly what they are eating. I know how much is meat, bone and organ. I don't know that with kibble "meal" - how much is all bone, skin, feathers, feet? Do we feed chicken feet - yup but as a good treat for my older ones especially not as a meal. I wish we could do all organic but their raw diet is so much more healthy, balanced than anything I could get from a bag. My son is going hunting this fall and boy am I prayinf he gets something. Then they would be eating organic for quite a while!


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

i think the idea, at least in this day and age, is to feed as close to nature that you can...

we have lobbies who are trying to deal with those who would cut the corners that will harm us, just as we have lobbyists who promote that which can harm us...

for now, we have what we have.....the one thing that i am dead nuts sure on is processed food kills us....depending on our genetics, that can be slowly or quickly.....same with dogs....

as another poster said, it's my choice to eat human kibble, but my dogs only have what i feed them. since i have dominion over my animals, then it's my job to feed them the best of what i can afford to feed them.

if it's meat that is not grass fed/grass finished, so be it, but at least i know it's from a cow or a bison or a deer and i know which part of the animal i'm feeding.

i can't say that about kibble, even the best of the best...and i think there are a few kibble companies out there who use natural or organic proteins.


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## Roo (Oct 17, 2010)

> So, lets be honest....do all of you feed all natural organic preservative, hormone, and antibiotic free meats?


I'll be honest, no I don't, because of the high expense. Both my husband and I do eat antibiotic and hormone free /grass fed meats, and I do try to at least buy my dog's organ meat that way. I'm still looking for a way to afford feeding all of their food that way in the future. I don't feed high quality kibble though because I do feel there is still a large difference between feeding high quality kibble like Acana and feeding Raw with human grade grocery store meats. 

While kibble and raw human grade grocery store meat are both technically processed, the degree they are processed to is very different. All kibble is cooked, raw is not, which means the bioavailability of the nutrients (vitamins, minerals, amino acids etc.) is much better with raw. Since the cooking process destroys a lot of nutrients, dog food companies have to add them back in and those vitamins, minerals, and amino acids are not usually the same as the natural form found in raw foods. The proteins in raw meat are easier to digest because they don't lack the natural enzymes that are destroyed by the cooking process. This means my dog's organ functions don't have to work as hard to digest the raw as they do cooked. Because a raw diet is still in the raw form, even with the slight processing it goes through, makes me feel it's closer to their natural biological prey diet that they are designed to eat, than any high quality kibble. Also I think the added benefit of a much higher moisture content in the raw food than dry kibble, allows for more hydration in a dog's body.

Personally one of my dog's suffered from chronic colitis for 3 years and I tried several different high quality canned and dry kibble foods, grain included and grain free, nothing really made a big difference till I finally tried the prey model raw diet, her quality of life is so much better now as she no longer has colitis issues after 6 mo on raw. This is why I think the bioavailability of the nutrients, and ease of digestion of the food due to natural enzymes still being present in the food matters, because I think it is what made the difference with her digestive issues. While both my dogs did well on high quality kibbles (minus the colitis), they seem to do even better on raw.

Kibble is the most convenient and sometimes least expensive food to feed a dog, yet there are a number of people who choose to feed raw. There must be something those raw feeders are experiencing feeding their dogs raw over kibble to make it worth the added time and expense.


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## SpooOwner (Oct 1, 2010)

There are no studies; there is no science. Nothing supporting raw over commercial foods, but also nothing supporting commercial foods over raw. So, if you're saying that you won't be persuaded by anything less than a journal article, then ok, you will not be persuaded at this time.

I think it takes a leap of faith to go raw. For me, it was more of a hop, because everyone I know who _works_ with their dogs feeds raw. Sled dogs? Raw. Top agility competitors (as in the US national team)? Raw. Even many of the CPDTs, vets, and breeders in my area feed raw. But even with so many role models and people to talk with, it still took faith.

I don't know many people who go back to kibble. Those that do, do so because of the price. For most raw feeders, raw is not cheaper than commercial. But we feed raw because the anecdotal evidence solidly supports that raw fed dogs are healthier, with a lower incidence of cancer, autoimmune disorders, allergies, and more active years.

Is there scientific evidence? Nope. But there will be. Eventually.


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

SpooOwner said:


> There are no studies; there is no science. Nothing supporting raw over commercial foods, but also nothing supporting commercial foods over raw. So, if you're saying that you won't be persuaded by anything less than a journal article, then ok, you will not be persuaded at this time.
> 
> I think it takes a leap of faith to go raw. For me, it was more of a hop, because everyone I know who _works_ with their dogs feeds raw. Sled dogs? Raw. Top agility competitors (as in the US national team)? Raw. Even many of the CPDTs, vets, and breeders in my area feed raw. But even with so many role models and people to talk with, it still took faith.
> 
> ...


there is something going on...not sure what.....

but have you noticed the commercials for dog food lately? and how natural it is? and the scenery is chef michael or fresh pet sold in refrigerated sections of the store...and other brands? the advertising is leaning toward a more natural way of feeding....the words are almost like raw, even though it is kibble....

i wonder if raw feeders are finally whispering louder? and the dog food companies are starting to listen and react with their usual commercials to sway anyone who might consider raw feeding....after all that's a customer lost forever.

the most confusing for me is orijen's white paper....which totally supports raw feeding....

and then they make kibble which flowers in it....it makes sense what they are creating with marigolds and alfalfa and herbs.....rather than scientific names for certain vitamins and minerals....great marketing.....


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## schtuffy (May 17, 2010)

Quossum said:


> ShanniBella, it almost sounds like you want reassurance that it's okay to feed a high-quality kibble (forgive me if I misread your posts) instead of raw. Sure, it's fine, and many dogs do great on kibble. Many humans do perfectly fine over a lifetime of eating processed and inappropriate food. But raw is the most biologically, evolutionarily sound diet that dogs can eat. --Q


Q, I couldn't have put it better myeslf. I'm not speaking for ShanniBella, but from my own experience. When I was first considering raw, logic and common sense told me it was the right thing to do, but I still couldn't let go of feeding kibble. I don't know what made me feel that way, but some part of me probably was looking for reassurance that feeding kibble was okay. It's a good thing raw feeders are passionate, LOL, because without all the encouragement from people here, I don't know if I would have ever made the switch. We all had to start somewhere, but I think continuing to educate others is the most important part.

I've also noticed the trend towards "natural" and fresh ingredients in dog food commercials (even though half the stuff is still junk), but a lot of decent kibbles are making apperances on TV. Innova and Blue Buffalo are advocating how they don't include wheat, corn, or soy. I think that's an awesome step in the right direction; ultimately it's all about awareness.

Believe it or not, researching Louis' diet and my experience in switching him to raw has made me more conscious about my own eating habits and prompted me to do more research on human nutrition (which is a whole nother cluster of its own :tongue


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## D'Lynn (Jun 20, 2011)

What I just love in regards to the marketing of kibble foods are the pictures of their ingredients. Luscious fruits and vegetables and whole grains. All the ingredients of a balanced diet. For humans at least. After all, humans buy the food, right? Noticeably missing in these pictures are raw meat and organs. There is a definite ick factor for many folks in raw meat and organs.


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

D'Lynn said:


> What I just love in regards to the marketing of kibble foods are the pictures of their ingredients. Luscious fruits and vegetables and whole grains. All the ingredients of a balanced diet. For humans at least. After all, humans buy the food, right? Noticeably missing in these pictures are raw meat and organs. There is a definite ick factor for many folks in raw meat and organs.


isn't that a hoot? and that's exactly what i'm talking about....boneless chicken breasts fit for any table.....carrots...LOL


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## Herzo (Feb 5, 2011)

I don't have much to add to what every one else has said really but I can understand that it is scary to do something few do and most don't understand. I have gone back and forth from raw to kibble before not because I didn't feel it was the best because it was more work. I use to have more people give me old deer and antelope meat than I do now and the only thing I new for sure that they could eat with bone was chicken wings that I would buy in 40 lb. cases. They kept going up so I quite buying them. Not stopping to figure out how much a lb. the dog food was.

I never found a good sight like this and we were without a computer for some time. Then my basset got very bad ears that I could not get cleared up and called Lew Olsen and she said take her off all carbs, well there is now way to do that with any kind of kibble. So I did it that night and luckily found this sight, seems like about the next day. Wish I had found it a long time ago. Now I still had to doctor her because it was not only yeast but bacterial infection but if I can keep it from coming back that's my scientific proof as my Vet is definitely thinking it will and is hoping I think that I will feed her Science Diet. When Hell freezes over.

I got lax about doctoring and also about letting her get at the bird seed and it did start to come back. But I have been doctoring about every other day and it looks good again.

I have just started one more of my dogs on PMR and I do still have two on kibble mixed with some canned or some cooked meat and fish oil. Once you have the meat in the freezer it's quicker than mixing up the kibble. But I don't think if you can't get to the point where you think it's best that any one will think your a terrible person.

So why don't you just stick around and do some reading and research and don't make any quick decisions till you read more.


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## CorgiPaws (Mar 31, 2009)

ShanniBella said:


> I do however feel as though more people worry about what there dogs eat more than themselves and that there dogs eat better than them. I see it on other dog forums I am on. Owners are overweight and unhealthy while there dogs reap the benefits of a healthy unprocessed diet and excercise. Then the owner turns around and goes to eat at Mcdonalds or Burger king while there dog eats the bowl of raw chicken, veggies, and vitamin supplements. It really doesn't make any sense to me.


Oh, I understand the frustration there, and it's actually the topic of another very active thread right now. BUT...
what we as owners decide to eat or not eat doesn't change the dietary needs of our canine companions one bit. We are omnivores, we are incredibly adaptable. Dogs are carnivores, and while they can handle some other matter in their diet, their systems just are not designed for it, and certainly don't thrive like they do on a strictly carnivore diet. My point is: a dog's owner eating like crap, doesn't make PMR any less appropriate for their dog. In fact, I would even say that some raw feeders I are take so much pride in what they feed their dogs, and part of that is wishing they would have the discipline to do the same for themselves. 



ShanniBella said:


> Also, you guys keep saying kibble is processed and I get that, but unless you are shopping at an all natural organic grocery store your dog is still getting hormones, antibiotics, and all kinds of preservatives pumped into the meats so this is why I don't think it is a "win win" situation and that even though raw may be best in some owners eyes there are still plenty of recalls done on raw meats every year as well as kibble.


You are right on this to an extent.
Ideally, our dogs would be out, catching and killing their own free range animals. 
This just isn't doable in today's everyday town, and for most dog owners. So, we do what we can. We feed as close to that as we can. Some people DO feed all organic meats, and props to them, it's expensive. Some people so feed all whole prey, some people even feel all live prey. 
The idea is to feed what MOST closely resembles the natural diet of a carnivore, and for most of that, it's feeding whole animal PARTS. 
No, not all meat in the grocery store is perfect, but it's not NEARLY as processed as kibble, and you know that what you're feeding is chicken muscle meat. Not chicken tumors. Not chicken bruises. Not chicken feet. Not chicken beaks. Chicken MEAT. You know how much meat vs. bone vs. organ you're giving, and you can look at the quality of the food. 



ShanniBella said:


> Unless you live on a farm and can slaughter the cows, chickens, goats, etc. yourself .....you really don't know where your source of meat is coming from except from the grocery store or where ever you order your bulk from.


You can trace the source of your meat if you want to. 
That being said, you're right, most people don't give much thought to things like that. 
But, in kibble, not only do you have no idea where the meat came from, but you also don't know the quality, amount, or any other aspect. It is rendered, cooked, processed. It is far more of a mystery and gamble then grocery store meat. Not even comparable, really. 



ShanniBella said:


> So, lets be honest....do all of you feed all natural organic preservative, hormone, and antibiotic free meats? I find it hard to believe that you do.


Do I? No, I don't. There are people here that do. 
BUT.
Do I feed whole prey? yes. 
Do I feed animal parts? yes.
Do I know how much meat, bone, and organs I'm feeding? yes. 
Am I feeding the closest thing to a natural diet? yes.
When my dogs are on chicken, does it look like chicken? yes. 
When I feed my dogs fish, does it look like fish? yes. 
Am I steering clear of all plant matter and unnecessary supplements? yes. 

That can not be said about ANY commercial food on the market. So while a prey model raw diet may have some minor flaws, it is really not nearly as flawed as kibble. I can't think of one thing "right" with kibble. not. one. thing. 

I think that almost everyone is skeptical of raw feeding. I mean, after all we are fed the wonders of pet foods through marketing everywhere we go, and the idea of raw feeding is so foreign to some people it's hard to accept. But when it comes down to it, it's really the only means of feeding a canine that makes sense at all.


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## RaisingWolves (Mar 19, 2011)

Quossum said:


> It's funny this thread comes up right when I join this board. I may be new here, but I have been feeding raw for about 15 years now.
> 
> Raw is no more expensive than the very best ultra-high quality kibble (a bag of which I do keep on hand for emergencies), and it just plain makes more sense evolutionarily. Part of the cost of dog ownership, in my opinion, is feeding the animal appropriately.
> *
> ...



Fantastic post!:thumb: :thumb::thumb::thumb:


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## Stella+Samson (May 10, 2011)

Hello ShanniBella,

i have raw fed our dogs for 9 or 10 years now and they are still alive and well. They love it!

I started because first they refused to eat the kibble. So i switched to cans. Those were special cans with no preservatives and so on. About 1 year later I did a class on homeopathy for animals. There I met a lady that told me about raw feeding. And i knew right away that this is the right thing! My dogs did not have any health issues then. (or course they were still young). But still, i mean, i try to eat right and healthy. Why would i refuse this to my dogs!!!

Ever since then they LOVE eating! They always empty their bowl! (At least Samson does, Stella is a little picky the last 1 or 2 years, she does not like the organ meat anymore). When i hear other people complaining that their dogs don’t want to eat. Of have skin problems...then the SMELL of some dog! In my opinion, my dogs smell good! Natural somehow!!!

In May I had to travel to Germany for 1 week and my husband feed the dry food during this time and some cans. I knew that and thought that 1 week will not kill them. But man, Samson did not look good at all when I came back. He looked fat and like..not firm anymore…and he pooped sooo much!!! With raw food he poops only 2 a day cause his body uses the food!

The pet industry is a big money maker. People spend so much on dog food and vets and vaccinations…but at the same time the overall heath of our dogs are deteriorating. I mean, 50 years ago they did not have epilepsy or all those skin problems and the autoimmune diseases… this should make us think!


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