# About to give up



## Loki Love (Jan 30, 2011)

We've been doing raw with Loki since mid December, thereabouts. In the beginning, it was fantastic. Loki ate his meals with gusto - chowed down like there was no tomorrow. This was HUGE for us. The whole reason we switched to raw was because he was such a fussy eater and turned his nose up at kibble time and time again (regardless of the brand).

Fast forward to today. He's on about day 3 of not wanting to eat. He licks the chicken and walks away from it. Last night he ate a bit of pork - walked away from the rest. He'll certainly eat beef much better than the rest, but at one point he needs to learn you eat what you're given.

Needless to say, this is becoming a massive stress point in our lives. Loki is not a big boy to begin with and he was finally starting to gain weight with raw. He's now looking all skinny again. I don't want to give up, but I am at my wits end. I don't know how to make him eat. I can't go back to kibble because it will be the same situation.

We are doing the 'down for 15 minutes' rule - but is this the best way to go? Is he really going to learn to eat this way? My thinking is he'll eat enough every few days to just keep him going. I was thinking of getting a cheap grinder and trying that, but hubby is reluctant - we already spend a lot of time/energy prepping his food - do we want to spend more to only have Loki turn his nose up at it .. again?

ARGH! I'm so frustrated! I welcome any and all suggestions. I think I mostly just needed to vent :redface:


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## Montana (Apr 10, 2011)

Have you tried just lightly searing the outside of his food, or sprinkling some parmesan cheese or something on it?


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## Loki Love (Jan 30, 2011)

Montana said:


> Have you tried just lightly searing the outside of his food, or sprinkling some parmesan cheese or something on it?


We haven't - but with good reason. He ate everything just fine a couple months ago. I know he can and will eat it completely raw and untouched. I'm leery of going down that path of doctoring again (we were the Gods of doctoring his kibble.. and it got us nowhere) and then not being able to get back to the point where he'll eat his food plain again or .. we get to the point where it doesn't matter how much we doctor it, he still won't touch it.


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## Montana (Apr 10, 2011)

I can understand your frustration and not wanting to modify it! One of my cats is an extremely picky eater as well, and refuses to eat anything but Friskies *barf!* She went almost a week with barely eating when I tried to switch her, and got very sick. I can't wrap my head around feeding her such garbage, and am still trying to switch her to at least Orijin.  How old is Loki? Could he be going through a teenage rebellious snoty punk stage do you think? Do you ever fast him? Do you feed one or two meals a day?

All you can do is the best for your dog, if you think grinding might help, I would give it a go! It's better than having to deal with a sick pet.


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## whiteleo (Sep 7, 2008)

Besides the pork, chicken and beef, how much variety is he getting in his diet? Variety is key for a dog that is picky, (yes, I have one too!) and she likes certain foods more than others.


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## Loki Love (Jan 30, 2011)

Montana said:


> How old is Loki? Could he be going through a teenage rebellious snoty punk stage do you think? Do you ever fast him? Do you feed one or two meals a day?
> 
> All you can do is the best for your dog, if you think grinding might help, I would give it a go! It's better than having to deal with a sick pet.


Loki is nearly 2-1/2 yrs old. I think he's declared himself a diva for life to be honest! We normally feed once a day (trying to get his appetite up as much as possible). 

I really don't know if grinding will help - my guess is it will help for a while and then he'll get all fussy again. 



whiteleo said:


> Besides the pork, chicken and beef, how much variety is he getting in his diet? Variety is key for a dog that is picky, (yes, I have one too!) and she likes certain foods more than others.


We tried duck - he didn't like it. We tried turkey - he didn't like it. He has, in the past, steadily eaten chicken, pork, beef. He also gets frozen mackerel, canned sardines, etc. I can't source things like lamb, venison, goat, rabbit for cheap and so I only toss those kinds of meats in when I see them on sale - on average, maybe once a month or so. 

I'd love to take away the chicken for a while - but that's his main source for bone meals right now.


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## Ania's Mommy (Feb 8, 2009)

Are you sure he doesn't have something medically wrong? Bad teeth or something?


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## whiteleo (Sep 7, 2008)

For turkey, my dogs are not fans at all but they love them some good turkey necks. Have you started organs?


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## Montana (Apr 10, 2011)

Loki Love said:


> Loki is nearly 2-1/2 yrs old. I think he's declared himself a diva for life to be honest!


Lol! They can be such brats sometimes but gotta love them for having personality though! 

I hope it's just a stage he's going through and gets back into loving the raw. Has there been any changes in environment or routine with him? Anything going on with yourself? Is he a sensative dog to things like that? I know when I'm sick or feeling off, my pets seem to be effected by it too. If not though, I hope you get it figured soon and keep us posted!


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## KittyKat (Feb 11, 2011)

I remember hearing about a dog that was soooo picky everything had to be special made, and even then he would go without eating for days. After taking him out and working him, he slowly started to eat again. Turns out he had to work for his food, then he would eat whatever was in front of him.

How long are his walks? Do you get a good run in?


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## Liz (Sep 27, 2010)

I feel your pain. I have a sheltie diva. She is what she is and she likes it. She hates beef and went 7 days with no food. I had to give in as she went from 20 pound to 16 1/2. I put her back on chicken and purchased younger calves and she will eat that beef. Still not her favorite but she will eat. Don't despair, hold strong and he will learn you have to eat. Personally if they don't like one thing that's fine - there are things I don't like either but if they start getting picky of multiple foods the tough love gets going. Hope he starts eating soon.


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## Loki Love (Jan 30, 2011)

Ania's Mommy said:


> Are you sure he doesn't have something medically wrong? Bad teeth or something?


Positive - he eats everything else just fine (treats, frozen liver cubes, frozen offal patties, etc). He's been a diva about his food since we've had him. I never knew dogs could be so fussy :/



whiteleo said:


> For turkey, my dogs are not fans at all but they love them some good turkey necks. Have you started organs?


Have started organ meat - he gets a variety of pork liver, pork kidneys, chicken livers and beef liver right now. I also forgot to mention, he gets beef heart and pork heart as well (as well as treats of chicken hearts).



Montana said:


> Lol! They can be such brats sometimes but gotta love them for having personality though!
> 
> I hope it's just a stage he's going through and gets back into loving the raw. Has there been any changes in environment or routine with him? Anything going on with yourself? Is he a sensative dog to things like that? I know when I'm sick or feeling off, my pets seem to be effected by it too. If not though, I hope you get it figured soon and keep us posted!


I do think he's sensitive and he picks up on the stress here at home. It's so hard not to get all tense when it comes time to feed him - but I try really hard to have a positive attitude and if he eats, he eats - if he doesn't, he doesn't. It's hard though. We want him to be healthy and enjoy eating :/

I do believe Loki's mission in life is to slowly drive us insane...! 



KittyKat said:


> I remember hearing about a dog that was soooo picky everything had to be special made, and even then he would go without eating for days. After taking him out and working him, he slowly started to eat again. Turns out he had to work for his food, then he would eat whatever was in front of him.
> 
> How long are his walks? Do you get a good run in?


We are doing about an hour or so a day with walks - weekends he gets lots of off leash time. We don't do much running with him on leash (he goes WAY too fast and I'm sure I'll just topple over). Maybe we need to really up the exercise to see if that helps. I walk him in the mornings.. hubby gets him out during the day, and he gets a late night walk as well.

I really appreciate the comments/suggestions so far - thank you!


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## KittyKat (Feb 11, 2011)

Loki Love said:


> We are doing about an hour or so a day with walks - weekends he gets lots of off leash time. We don't do much running with him on leash (he goes WAY too fast and I'm sure I'll just topple over). Maybe we need to really up the exercise to see if that helps. I walk him in the mornings.. hubby gets him out during the day, and he gets a late night walk as well.


I think an hour a day should be good, but perhaps he needs higher intensity (i get the running bit, I have a whippet and i certainly can't go 40mph with her), something like roller blading or biking with him to just "charge him up" and get him motivated. That or do the hour all at once and see if that helps.


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## whiteleo (Sep 7, 2008)

I agree, the picky one here at home really needs her loose off leash running time and if the weather has been bad for days then I can certainly tell by her eating habits. I call her my (fart in a skillet) she just needs the free time to run. Is there anywhere that he can just be loose to run, an old logging trail or road. Good Luck and keep us posted.


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## SpooOwner (Oct 1, 2010)

Mia is often disinterested in her meals. Here's what I'm currently trying: (1) Bone-in meals are her least favorite. She's not that into poultry. I tried doctoring it, as you said, with salmon oil, and that worked for a while. Lately, I've been making it into a game. Tease her with it the same way I do when we play tug, then keep holding it as she chews on it. I'm not sure how long this will work/be necessary. Also, I'm cutting down on the bone-in meals - only twice/week (three if you include fish). (2) Meat and organs - although she prefers these meals, she may still turn away from them. To help, I'm exercising her more before eating and pushing her breakfast time back a bit.

Good luck. I'd like to know what you try and what ends up working.


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## DaneMama (Jun 27, 2008)

If all checks out fine medically, it just the case of a picky eater. Which doctoring and catering to his whims will only make his pickiness worse. When was the last time he was at the vet?

I agree with KittyKat, exercise is huge to motivate dogs to eat but also to work for his food. What's your exercise routine with him?


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

Loki Love said:


> We've been doing raw with Loki since mid December, thereabouts. In the beginning, it was fantastic. Loki ate his meals with gusto - chowed down like there was no tomorrow. This was HUGE for us. The whole reason we switched to raw was because he was such a fussy eater and turned his nose up at kibble time and time again (regardless of the brand).
> 
> Fast forward to today. He's on about day 3 of not wanting to eat. He licks the chicken and walks away from it. Last night he ate a bit of pork - walked away from the rest. He'll certainly eat beef much better than the rest, but at one point he needs to learn you eat what you're given.
> 
> ...


what will he eat without issue?

can u think of any event that started this?
is there a stressor that is recent?

If you think you are contributing to the stress
in any way, is there someone else who could feed him and may
may be act in a calmer, i don't care if you eat or not way?


Recently my older girl decided she didn't like raw meaty bones she only wanted that which she could crunch once and be done....only boneless...noyhing that required work.
i didn't do anything special....just kept walking out of the room...and then her stomach won...she is a hungry girl....

so i have no advice for you, except maybe your frustration has passed on to loki.

i'm just looking for triggers from december 'til now.


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## Loki Love (Jan 30, 2011)

whiteleo said:


> I agree, the picky one here at home really needs her loose off leash running time and if the weather has been bad for days then I can certainly tell by her eating habits. I call her my (fart in a skillet) she just needs the free time to run. Is there anywhere that he can just be loose to run, an old logging trail or road. Good Luck and keep us posted.


We have some woods nearby we can take him. It's already been discussed - we are going to be going after work every day to see it makes a difference. We were normally only going on the weekends, but now that the days are longer (and it's getting warmer out - woohoo!) we will go more often.



DaneMama said:


> If all checks out fine medically, it just the case of a picky eater. Which doctoring and catering to his whims will only make his pickiness worse. When was the last time he was at the vet?
> 
> I agree with KittyKat, exercise is huge to motivate dogs to eat but also to work for his food. What's your exercise routine with him?


He saw the vet in December - the only 'complaint' was his weight (and we were doing so well with putting some on!). Tonight he ended up eating frozen mackerel, canned sardines, canned mackerel and ground beef. I caved. I suck at 'tough love' 

Can you explain a bit more what you mean by 'work for his food'? Right now, his exercise routine is pretty limited to leash walks 2-3 times/day for 20-30 minutes at a shot. That said though, we are going to try taking him to the woods for off leash runs and zoomies to see if that helps things.


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## Loki Love (Jan 30, 2011)

magicre said:


> what will he eat without issue?
> 
> can u think of any event that started this?
> is there a stressor that is recent?
> ...


He's always been a fussy eater - since day 1. I think we contributed to that by doctoring his kibble and giving in to his whims for a long long time. We are now dealing with this beast we helped create. 

He will eat dehydrated meats, cheese, anything that is considered a 'treat' without hesitation. 

I do honestly think the stress we feel around his feeding time is rubbing off on him. I think I'm at the point where I don't care if he eats or not - I obviously prefer if he does eat of course, but I can't keep worrying about this. He will drive us insane if we do. Tonight he turned his nose up at chicken. He ate the sardines/mackerel and ground beef with no issue. Was I more calm with the latter items? I don't know.


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## Montana (Apr 10, 2011)

I'm not sure if this is exactly what was meant, but some people apply the NILF (Nothing In Life is Free) method in helping and conditioning certain behavior traits in their dog. Basically it's using their meals as a reward for something, like training, tricks, exercise, ect. It's a mental stimulation, rather than just plopping some food in front of their noses. I've heard many people use the NILF method for the stubborn, strong willed type.


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## Ania's Mommy (Feb 8, 2009)

Yup. I was going to suggest NILF too. If he eats treats fine, maybe if you treated his meals like treats, he'd eat them too.

So you make him perform a trick for each bite. That might work.


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## DaneMama (Jun 27, 2008)

Loki Love said:


> He saw the vet in December - the only 'complaint' was his weight (and we were doing so well with putting some on!). Tonight he ended up eating frozen mackerel, canned sardines, canned mackerel and ground beef. I caved. I suck at 'tough love'
> 
> Can you explain a bit more what you mean by 'work for his food'? Right now, his exercise routine is pretty limited to leash walks 2-3 times/day for 20-30 minutes at a shot. That said though, we are going to try taking him to the woods for off leash runs and zoomies to see if that helps things.


We have 6 girls and dinner time is work time. We do obedience routine with each one like a game. Feeding time can take as much as an hour in our house, but its the girls favorite time of day. We really enjoy it to. Of course we take days off from these routines and just divvy out meat to each one without much of a big deal. 

You can also try more mental work with him too. Mental work (obedience, nose work, tricks, etc) can be just as tiring as a long hard run. Mental stimulation is just as important as physical. Loki's pickiness may be a result of lack of mental work, I don't want to assume that you don't do this kind of stuff with him though. I can give you plenty of ideas if you need them :thumb:


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## Loki Love (Jan 30, 2011)

DaneMama said:


> You can also try more mental work with him too. Mental work (obedience, nose work, tricks, etc) can be just as tiring as a long hard run. Mental stimulation is just as important as physical. Loki's pickiness may be a result of lack of mental work, I don't want to assume that you don't do this kind of stuff with him though. I can give you plenty of ideas if you need them :thumb:


I would *love* some ideas! I'll be the first to admit we don't do a lot of mental stimulation simply for lack of really knowing it was important - but maybe he could really thrive on it?

I guess I assumed that it wasn't a good thing to be too overly involved in his feeding time (as in, better to just dump the food and he should eat it) - but it sounds like he may be more inclined to work for it were we to treat them like a treat. Interesting. I think we figured that would simply play into his finickiness..?


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## KittyKat (Feb 11, 2011)

Montana said:


> I'm not sure if this is exactly what was meant, but some people apply the NILF (Nothing In Life is Free) method in helping and conditioning certain behavior traits in their dog. Basically it's using their meals as a reward for something, like training, tricks, exercise, ect. It's a mental stimulation, rather than just plopping some food in front of their noses. I've heard many people use the NILF method for the stubborn, strong willed type.


Basically this. Some dogs have a strong drive to work, and when it's not fulfilled they end up with some issues. 

My dog is occasionally picky about food as well, so some days I'll take her on a walk and use her hunger for training. Recall, tricks, fetch (soon to be disc play) all work better when she's hungry and motivated for rewards. I'll mix in treats with regular food. She sits and looks at me before she gets dinner. Sometimes I ask for a couple of tricks first. I've even taken to holding her chicken when she eats.
My dog has an independent streak in her when it comes to making decisions (perhaps more of a temperament of her breed) so it's up to me to up the anti to make the choice more clear. Yes, that milkweed is really run to play with, but when i call, it means come, and the possibility of a great reward (like cheese). She occasionally picks the milkweed.

I know some people don't even have "dinner time" because they use the food as rewards. I did this when we first got her on days when i could be around the whole day.


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## DaneMama (Jun 27, 2008)

Loki Love said:


> I would *love* some ideas! I'll be the first to admit we don't do a lot of mental stimulation simply for lack of really knowing it was important - but maybe he could really thrive on it?
> 
> I guess I assumed that it wasn't a good thing to be too overly involved in his feeding time (as in, better to just dump the food and he should eat it) - but it sounds like he may be more inclined to work for it were we to treat them like a treat. Interesting. I think we figured that would simply play into his finickiness..?


I assume he knows basic commands like sit, down, stay, etc. A great game you can do that is highly mentally stimulating and confidence building is "its YER choice" which is basically a game that allows the dog to choose whats the right thing to get what he wants. BUT you are in control of the goods (ie foods, toys, area, etc). We do a combination of sit, down, touch, up, etc for them to get their food. Their release is direct eye contact AND the word OK, meaning if I'm not looking into the dog's eyes when I say OK they can't get it. I test them all the time with this by saying OK without looking at them, or even looking just above their face to make it extra hard. 

YouTube - "It's Yer Choice"

Nose work can be good too. Try hiding his RMBs around the yard and let him use his nose to find them...this is really entertaining! Its amazing to watch a dog use their nose to get what they want! Maybe fast him a 12-24 hours before doing this so he's extra driven to find them :thumb:


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

does he HAVE to have treats? sometimes, they get enough in treats that somehow, they know they don't have to eat.

i don't recommend this for everyone, but since i got sick my dogs are getting their two to three mile walk daily. i'm lucky some days if i can walk a half mile with them and even the old girl likes to shuffle along...but the young, 'thinks he's a bulldog'...he loves him some runnin'..

little do they know there is a treadmill on the way, arriving today...and they will be on it. malia already knows how...bubba will probably have a heart attack...but we're bringing a trainer in for him..because he's so lovely about new things.

i'm just saying that sometimes you gotta do what you gotta do...

and if treats are enough to keep his belly full that he can diva out of eating, then i'd stop the treats and that's just for starters.

isn't it amazing that sometimes we simply aren't smarter than the dog? it's humbling : )


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## Northwoods10 (Nov 22, 2010)

I agree with Magicre.......try decreasing the amount of treats he gets.

More exercise & more mental stimulation. 

I think a combination of the above should help a lot. 

I'd also take a quick peak in his mouth and check out his teeth. From what you've described, he's ok with eating mostly boneless stuff and picky about eating bone in. That could be something as little as a sore mouth, a broken tooth, etc. Won't hurt to look. 

Good luck!


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