# Ummmmm????? ban Great Danes?? REALLY?



## biancaDB (Nov 3, 2011)

North Carolina ban to kill numerous breeds - National American Pit Bull | Examiner.com

What !?! Am I late to this!?


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## jdatwood (Apr 13, 2009)

Saw this on FB a few weeks ago. Absolutely DISGUSTING. The people behind it should be strung up


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## MollyWoppy (Mar 19, 2010)

Thankfully, they withdrew their proposal due to overwhelming public protest. Good job!


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## biancaDB (Nov 3, 2011)

A coworker just told me about this! I am absolutely appalled that they would even consider banning ANY dog on that list. Pit bulls were one thing for me to be pissed off about and now I'm just ....:frusty:


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## biancaDB (Nov 3, 2011)

MollyWoppy said:


> Thankfully, they withdrew their proposal due to overwhelming public protest. Good job!


Really!?!? Ahhh great !


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## jdatwood (Apr 13, 2009)

Victory! Cumberland County Animal Control Backs Off Controversial Proposal | Change.org News

http://fayobserver.com/articles/2011/12/06/1142020


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## RCTRIPLEFRESH5 (Feb 11, 2010)

jdatwood said:


> Saw this on FB a few weeks ago. Absolutely DISGUSTING. The people behind it should be strung up


wow thats nuts. They should just stick with doing DA AND food aggression tests...and if they just put down dogs..put down the ones that are aggressive o nan individual basis.

it says they will be held for 72 hours, what if someone wants to adopt one in 72 hours?
Actually heard of a beagle who got gas chamber and survived lol.


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## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

That's the danger in all this. People don't rise up over pit bulls - but what if it's my beloved Dobie? Or somneone else's Great Dane? What happens when a labrador bites a kid and the town decides to ban them?

Very scary. You allow one breed to be banned, you lose control over it. This proposal was for about 90% of large breed dogs. And it's not just dogs - it's so many other things. Governments shouldn't be able to do this to people.


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## KittyKat (Feb 11, 2011)

A conservative MPP is trying to repeal the pit bull ban in Ontario.


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## GoingPostal (Sep 5, 2011)

RCTRIPLEFRESH5 said:


> wow thats nuts. They should just stick with doing DA AND food aggression tests...and if they just put down dogs..put down the ones that are aggressive o nan individual basis.


So if a dog is DA or food aggressive they get put down? It's pretty common that puppies and young dogs are dog friendly and mature into dog aggression or selectiveness as adults in bully breeds. My male was dog friendly when I adopted him at under a year and around 2 years old started hating strange dogs, you are much better off educating and adopting to knowledgeable people, not joe blow who wants a pit bull to be a buddy for their 7 other dogs and run freely at the dog park. Far too many get dumped or killed because people don't research and manage their dogs. As far as food aggression, my male was a resource guarder, not because he's "aggressive" but because it's a normal dog behavior and just like no one taught him any manners or fixed or contained him, they didn't bother to teach him people around food is an ok thing or maybe they did it the stupid way of taking dogs food away and reinforcing their fear. Simple training fixed that issue completely. I don't think testing in a shelter environment is a really good guage of how the dog might react in a home situation anyways, it's far too stressful and loud, many dogs are either shutdown or overstimulated.


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## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

The problem is there are hundreds of dogs behind an aggressive dog that won't show any aggression. Who do shelter workers spend their time on? Helping one dog or adopting out all the ones that don't snap at you when you walk by their food bowl?

If we'd stop buying dogs there wouldn't be so many dogs in the shelters getting put to death. Any little issue will get them killed because there are so fricken many.

Breed, breed, breed, everyone is doing it. What's supposed to happen to all these dogs? Not every dog is going to find someone who wants it, knows how to take care of it, and will keep it. Those dogs are extremely lucky, and very few.

These dogs HAVE to pass a shelter test the first time in many places. They don't get a second shot at it. Too many dogs are being dumped.


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## Rodeo (Sep 11, 2011)

Killing DA dogs? Really? 

And I've never liked the anti-breeding argument. I just think only responsible people should breed. Without SOMEONE breeding there would be no more breeds  

Anyway, the list of breeds on these breed bans is going to keep growing. I'm really not surprised by this but glad it didn't stick.

ETA: Euthanizing DA dogs in a shelter is understandable. Rounding up DA dogs in a happy home is retarded.


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## Dude and Bucks Mamma (May 14, 2011)

xellil said:


> The problem is there are hundreds of dogs behind an aggressive dog that won't show any aggression. Who do shelter workers spend their time on? Helping one dog or adopting out all the ones that don't snap at you when you walk by their food bowl?
> 
> If we'd stop buying dogs there wouldn't be so many dogs in the shelters getting put to death. Any little issue will get them killed because there are so fricken many.
> 
> ...


But here's the thing... I have always bought my dogs from breeders and I have NEVER added a dog to the shelter system. Honestly, people who buy dogs aren't the problem. The problem is those who buy dogs then dump them because they didn't research the breed or even dogs in general, those who bought a dog then got bored with it, those who bought a Christmas puppy for their kids and either didn't make the kids continue to care for the dog or grew to resent the dog because they were too stupid to realize that children are not capable of caring for a dog alone, those who didn't bother to train the dog and dumped him because "he's wild/bad", or those who are moving and didn't plan to take the WHOLE family with them. Too many people buy dogs because they think having a dog is a right. They don't do enough research and accept the challenges that will come with certain breeds. I knew that Dude would shed. I knew Dude would be vocal. I knew that he would have the energy of a herder. I knew that he would mature to around 70 lbs. I knew Buck would have a stubborn streak a mile wide. I knew that he would brilliant almost to the point of being too smart for his own good. I knew he would have a crazy high drive. I knew he would be big. I think I have estimated his adult size to be bigger than what he will mature out to. I knew he would bawl. I knew he would likely never be an off leash dog due to his nose. I knew and accepted all of these challenges and have adjusted training techniques to fit each of them according to their breeds and personalities. 

Xellil, I don't mean to attack you anything. I like you a lot, actually. I have just been on the breeder's side of the argument too many times. I have actually been lumped in with breeders sometimes just because I have intact dogs. I have actually been approached in public and accused of being a breeder. When I tell said person I am not a breeder, they say, "But they aren't neutered!" I have to explain that not everyone who has a dog with testicles is a breeder and that I live in an apartment in military housing with a two pet limit. How am I supposed to have a business like that when I move every two years? I have never bred a dog in my life and I most likely never will. I don't plan to unless my breed is in dire need of some new blood or else it is going to die out. I, personally, don't see that happening to blueticks or smooth collies in my lifetime.


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## Tobi (Mar 18, 2011)

RCTRIPLEFRESH5 said:


> wow thats nuts. They should just stick with doing DA AND food aggression tests...and if they just put down dogs..put down the ones that are aggressive o nan individual basis.
> 
> it says they will be held for 72 hours, what if someone wants to adopt one in 72 hours?
> Actually heard of a beagle who got gas chamber and survived lol.


I don't think it's funny that a beagle got the gas chamber and survived...

My foster would have been put down if people thought like that, he was quite resource protective, even nipped at Tobi a few times... we got through it, and we never saw it again...

It's fortunate that it was backed down, there was much outcry about it, it was crazy... but what is even more crazy is the amount of dogs that are discarded down here, I think just 2 days ago Frogdog posted a picture of some puppies thrown out of a car in SC, it's pretty commonplace.


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## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

Dude and Bucks Mamma said:


> But here's the thing... I have always bought my dogs from breeders and I have NEVER added a dog to the shelter system. Honestly, people who buy dogs aren't the problem. The problem is those who buy dogs then dump them because they didn't research the breed or even dogs in general, those who bought a dog then got bored with it, those who bought a Christmas puppy for their kids and either didn't make the kids continue to care for the dog or grew to resent the dog because they were too stupid to realize that children are not capable of caring for a dog alone, those who didn't bother to train the dog and dumped him because "he's wild/bad", or those who are moving and didn't plan to take the WHOLE family with them. Too many people buy dogs because they think having a dog is a right. They don't do enough research and accept the challenges that will come with certain breeds. I knew that Dude would shed. I knew Dude would be vocal. I knew that he would have the energy of a herder. I knew that he would mature to around 70 lbs. I knew Buck would have a stubborn streak a mile wide. I knew that he would brilliant almost to the point of being too smart for his own good. I knew he would have a crazy high drive. I knew he would be big. I think I have estimated his adult size to be bigger than what he will mature out to. I knew he would bawl. I knew he would likely never be an off leash dog due to his nose. I knew and accepted all of these challenges and have adjusted training techniques to fit each of them according to their breeds and personalities.
> 
> Xellil, I don't mean to attack you anything. I like you a lot, actually. I have just been on the breeder's side of the argument too many times. I have actually been lumped in with breeders sometimes just because I have intact dogs. I have actually been approached in public and accused of being a breeder. When I tell said person I am not a breeder, they say, "But they aren't neutered!" I have to explain that not everyone who has a dog with testicles is a breeder and that I live in an apartment in military housing with a two pet limit. How am I supposed to have a business like that when I move every two years? I have never bred a dog in my life and I most likely never will. I don't plan to unless my breed is in dire need of some new blood or else it is going to die out. I, personally, don't see that happening to blueticks or smooth collies in my lifetime.


Yes, seems like we've had this conversation a few times! ha. or a hundred.

And I think the issue isn't whether there should be NO breeding, but whether there should be puppy mills, backyard breeders, anyone who doesn't watch their litters like a hawk. yadda yadda. i don't believe all dogs should be fixed. People should stop buying dogs from breeders who are only doing it for profit.

And this article was somewhat confusing - were they banning them in people's homes, or killing them as they come into the shelter? Or both? At least it was quashed (this time). But you know, this stuff has a habit of returning. 

They used to euthanize all the pit bulls here in Indy as they came into the shelter. They changed that, but looking at the dogs they have I have to wonder - probably 60-80 percent are pit bulls. They are being drowned in them. I just don't think any dog that remotely shows aggression in any form is going to get a chance to be adopted.


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## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

Tobi said:


> I don't think it's funny that a beagle got the gas chamber and survived...
> 
> My foster would have been put down if people thought like that, he was quite resource protective, even nipped at Tobi a few times... we got through it, and we never saw it again...
> 
> It's fortunate that it was backed down, there was much outcry about it, it was crazy... but what is even more crazy is the amount of dogs that are discarded down here, I think just 2 days ago Frogdog posted a picture of some puppies thrown out of a car in SC, it's pretty commonplace.



They euthanize perfectly fine dogs with NO issues here to make way for new ones. Dogs that would make great pets and that have no issues at all get euthanized all the time. It's totally sickening. 

Rescues do a little better job because they often are willing to work with dogs, have them in their homes etc. But honestly, alot of rescues won't take aggressive dogs. And in long term foster they are limited to the number of dogs they can take. 

A true kill shelter (like the one in Indy) takes in all the dogs from other rescues and humane societies that are considered unadoptable. Our humane society says it doesn't euthanize - no it doesn't! It just sends them to animal control, who does it. Very hypocritical.


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## Dude and Bucks Mamma (May 14, 2011)

xellil said:


> Yes, seems like we've had this conversation a few times! ha. or a hundred.
> 
> And I think the issue isn't whether there should be NO breeding, but whether there should be puppy mills, backyard breeders, anyone who doesn't watch their litters like a hawk. yadda yadda. i don't believe all dogs should be fixed. People should stop buying dogs from breeders who are only doing it for profit.
> 
> ...


Exactly. I am just as against puppy mills, BYBs, etc. as most people on this forum are. I would love to see all of them out out of business. I just hate it when all breeders are lumped together. 

This article was about taking in those breeds, holding them for the 72 hours, then euthanizing them all without ever actually giving them a chance to be adopted. I honestly don't think that county will be trying it again for quite some time. From everything I have seen, people are slowly but surely becoming more educated about dogs and the plight of the species. I am hoping for BSL to eventually be eliminated all together. It is a horrible thing that will slowly expand to include more and more breeds.


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## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

Dude and Bucks Mamma said:


> Exactly. I am just as against puppy mills, BYBs, etc. as most people on this forum are. I would love to see all of them out out of business. I just hate it when all breeders are lumped together.
> 
> This article was about taking in those breeds, holding them for the 72 hours, then euthanizing them all without ever actually giving them a chance to be adopted. I honestly don't think that county will be trying it again for quite some time. From everything I have seen, people are slowly but surely becoming more educated about dogs and the plight of the species. I am hoping for BSL to eventually be eliminated all together. It is a horrible thing that will slowly expand to include more and more breeds.


I do recognize that here on this site there is a much higher percentage of people who breed dogs who truly care about what they are doing. In fact, it's the only non-rescue site I go on because on alot of the breed-specific sites sometimes I just want to reach through my computer and throttle people. 

AND, in reality I've learned alot. I've not had much (any) interaction with people who do it right. It does give me a somewhat different perpective. When I say "breeders" I guess it may sound like I am lumping everyone in one pot. I don't really mean to do that. The people I am also ticked off at are the people who buy these dogs - you have to have the market in order to produce the product. 

It seems like the general public just absolutely refuses to get educated on where these cute puppies are coming from. When is it going to end? I mean, millions of dogs every year get euthanized. Someone is breeding these dogs. We should be banning puppy mills and $1500 mixed breed dogs in pet stores.

I agree that there should not be breed specific legislation. It's ridiculous. And these things have a habit of spreading so that it seems normal. I hope you are right that it will to the other direction, and not continue to affect more and more areas. My breed (Dobermans) are not as reviled as pit bulls, but when I thought I was going to have to move to Texas without a place to move to, I was looking for an apartment - most excluded by breed. SOME apartments did a temperament test - and still excluded by breed! 

And then there were the ones who accepted "any dog, any breed." Is that really so great? Like my husband said, what if that's where all the people with the mean dogs move to because no other place would accept them? I thought the rules of all the places were just ignorant and crazy. Just see if a dog is going to be attacking all the dogs or people it meets and if it's not, then don't exclude it.

And I'm still hiding Rebel from my insurance company - they would drop me if they knew, because he's on their list of banned breeds.


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## Imgliniel (Sep 1, 2011)

D and B's Momma, just curious since I didn't know your dogs were still intact, what is the reason? I vaguely remember you mentioning showing at some point but I am drawing a blank on the context.

I am actually suprised military housing doesn't have rules that they have to be fixed haha


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## Dude and Bucks Mamma (May 14, 2011)

xellil said:


> I do recognize that here on this site there is a much higher percentage of people who breed dogs who truly care about what they are doing. In fact, it's the only non-rescue site I go on because on alot of the breed-specific sites sometimes I just want to reach through my computer and throttle people.
> 
> AND, in reality I've learned alot. I've not had much (any) interaction with people who do it right. It does give me a somewhat different perpective. When I say "breeders" I guess it may sound like I am lumping everyone in one pot. I don't really mean to do that. The people I am also ticked off at are the people who buy these dogs - you have to have the market in order to produce the product.
> 
> ...


Well, people who don't care about their dogs typically aren't going to join a forum like this. Hahaha. I know what you mean about the breed forums. They are typically places where other breeds are regarded as inferior and I have two very different breeds that I think are equal.

I will be the first to admit that I got Dude from a BYB. Was she "technically" a BYB? Probably, but she did care about her dogs(the adults) and made sure they were well cared for. She didn't screen owners and they weren't living in the best house. She was an old woman with more dogs than she should have had. I got VERY lucky with Dude both temperament-wise and health-wise. He has never been sick a day in his life and is such a gentleman. In my defense, I was in the 8th grade and my parents didn't exactly help with the whole breed and breeder selection process. Hahaha. Knowing what I know now, I NEVER would have gotten a puppy from her but I can't say that I regret it. He is a pet and it was a learning experience. I am VERY picky with breeders now and would love to see people like Dude's breeder put out of business.

I hate to say it (kind of) but those $1500 "designer dogs" are, in my eyes, mutts. Nothing more, nothing less. Do they still deserve good homes? Yes. Should they have been bred? No. That's where it gets hard for me. Do we stop taking in those innocent pups who had no control over their situation and give them the home they deserve or not and just let them rot in their little fish tanks and eventually be put down in shelters when they aren't cute anymore. Yes, not adopting them will help end the business and more pups will be spared that life but it is hard to condemn a pup to that. I, personally, will never buy one. All I can hope is that the pups don't sell, are dumped at the shelter and are adopted since they are still young and that the decreasing income will shut the puppy mills and, in result, the pet stores, down for good.

From what I have heard, dobermans are slowly being removed from those lists. I had a man tell me that he just moved into an apartment here who just recently took dobes off their banned breed list and he was even able to find an insurance company that no longer banned dobes. I was ecstatic as I want another dobe one day but don't want to have to worry about being faced with the "get rid of your dog or get out" situation. I was talking to someone about BSL the other day and, in my mind, this is how BSL could go: Pits and similar breeds are banned in a lot of places. This has been expanded to include other breeds like mastiffs and, in some places, even danes. It has been further expanded to include some northern breeds like huskies and malamutes. GSDs are often on these lists. Rotties too. Those dogs are considered "dangerous"... Really, when you stop and think about it, how much of a stretch is it to include breeds like blueticks and other hounds who are bred to hunt? Hounds are bred to have hunting instincts... What if they were to turn those instincts onto a child? Then, after that, herding breeds. They nip at heels and can show some aggression towards whatever they are herding. Some of the breeds they include already are ridiculous to those of us who actually know the breeds so how hard is it to believe that people who obviously don't know these breeds could consider them dangerous? 



Imgliniel said:


> D and B's Momma, just curious since I didn't know your dogs were still intact, what is the reason? I vaguely remember you mentioning showing at some point but I am drawing a blank on the context.
> 
> I am actually suprised military housing doesn't have rules that they have to be fixed haha


There are so many pros and cons to both sides that I just choose to keep them intact. Initially, Dude was kept intact because he was so mellow and docile that my parents kept forgetting that he still had his jingle bells. It just never got done. With Buck, it is partially because I have decided not to neuter my male dogs and partially because I am going to show him. I really just think that they are best left how nature decided they should be.

The only requirements for military housing is that they be licensed, microchipped, and vaccinated for rabies.


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## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

Yes, and those sighthounds - they love to run down children!

And yes, they are mutts. Poor little things. I cry for them. But if someone pays $1500 for one that means some poor bitch is relegated to a cage with no place to put her feet except on wire, no human contact at all, no exercise, poor care, and probably a neck snap and dump into a pasture when she no longer produces good babies. 

It seems odd that people pay that much money for a puppy mill dog when they could go to a good breeder and get an AKC puppy for probably half the price or less. And I know why!!! Because it takes a little work and effort to get a properly bred dog. Driving to the mall and going home with a puppy - effortless.

I used to work with someone who wanted a puppy for his kids. I found him several on petfinder but he didn't want the home visits or to fill out the applications. I pointed him to breeder websites that looked good but he would have had to email, been vetted, and then (gasp) wait for a litter.

There were two rescues within an hour's drive from him that actually had puppies, wihch is pretty rare. nope, too much hassle.

So he spent two hours buying a malti-poo at a pet store for $1200. The poor thing has had all kinds of issues. Eight months later, he is telling me he wants to get rid of it!!!!!!!! Has allergies, can't housetrain, barks all the time blah blah blah blah. 

The last conversation we had, I told him he was a poor excuse for a dog owner, lazy, a coward and a damn jackass. Surprisingly, he hasn't spoken to me since.

AND, as of the last time we talked he was still wanting to find a bitch and breed it, to make some of his money back.

Ack. It's just enough to drive one to drink.


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## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

Man I just realized I really wandered off topic. So sorry. This isn't a puppy mill thread


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## Dude and Bucks Mamma (May 14, 2011)

xellil said:


> Yes, and those sighthounds - they love to run down children!
> 
> And yes, they are mutts. Poor little things. I cry for them. But if someone pays $1500 for one that means some poor bitch is relegated to a cage with no place to put her feet except on wire, no human contact at all, no exercise, poor care, and probably a neck snap and dump into a pasture when she no longer produces good babies.
> 
> ...


And those scenthounds will sniff out and hunt down children like animals!

Those thoughts are the same thoughts that go through my head when I think of those pups and their parents. 

I don't mind applications at all but I HATE home visits. Most breeders have you fill out an application. Not a big deal. They want to know what kind of experience their potential puppy owners have with dogs and their breed in particular. I have HUGE issues with strangers coming into my home. BUT, if I found a breeder I absolutely loved I wouldn't hesitate to come check out my home... although I don't feel that the type of home, or even fencing has anything to do with responsible dog ownership. I taught Buck and Dude to respect fences of ALL heights (even our little 4 foot fence that I hate) that they don't attempt to get out even with raccoons walking by. I would never trust them back there alone, but I wouldn't even if the fence was 8 feet tall. I've seen JRTs scale 8 foot fences. 

Xellil, I think you did what most of us here would have done. I know I would have. He needed to hear it. He might not believe it but he still needed to hear it.


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## Rodeo (Sep 11, 2011)

Imgliniel said:


> I am actually suprised military housing doesn't have rules that they have to be fixed haha


I'd be surprised if they DID require altering. In reality... there is no reason for a responsible owner to alter.  (Unless some health problem should arise)


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## Imgliniel (Sep 1, 2011)

Rodeo said:


> I'd be surprised if they DID require altering. In reality... there is no reason for a responsible owner to alter.  (Unless some health problem should arise)


The military housing out here tends to be fairly restrictive weather or not the rules make any kind of sense haha, I guess it is base dependant or area dependant because I swear one of my husbands friends moved into town because he wanted to keep his male intact until he was 2 or some more mature age and then fix him (the whole benefit of their hormeones thing), but on base housing wouldn't allow it. *shrug* I really don't care if responsible owners choose to alter their pets or not, because responsible owners of intact don't create a gazzillion oops litters that get given away in the walmart parking lot. It is a personal choice based on your research. Just like your personal decision on vaccinations (not you personally just in general) doesn't determine weather or not I consider you responsible, but complete lack of vet care because of laziness or throw away attitude does.

I wasn't trying to come accross as a fix or die type. I'm not, I'm a be a responsible owner type. Responsible means to me that you do what you believe is in the best interest of your dog and have done some research to come to that decision, and do not add to the masses of homeless pets by being the idiot that abandons your dog or breeds indescriminantly (ie dogs who do not have homes lined up before the litter is born or at least interest and a plan for the resulting puppies, and they were bred for a purpose, be that show, working lines, hunting, whatever, just not because).


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## Imgliniel (Sep 1, 2011)

oh, and more on topic about the BSL stuff. Lucy is a black and tan and probably a dobbie mix. But it is honestly anyones guess (I really need to upload pictures). My insurance tried to cancel me for having a "rottweiler type dog", type dog?!?! excuse me? I wrote them along letter including the paperwork from my vet, when we got her at 8 months (or should I say took her in off the streets) the vet thought she was a hound mix (which she has a VERY natural point so it is totally possible). So her vet paperwork all says hound mix. I advised them that she may have similar coloring but if they are going to go on that then they needed to cancel anyone with the same color chihuahua. Also every dog breed or mix thereof in the following list. I then included a list of EVERY SINGLE breed I could find that can come in black and tan, it was a fairly long list. They reinstated my policy and appologized.


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## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

Dude and Bucks Mamma said:


> I don't mind applications at all but I HATE home visits. Most breeders have you fill out an application. Not a big deal. They want to know what kind of experience their potential puppy owners have with dogs and their breed in particular. I have HUGE issues with strangers coming into my home. BUT, if I found a breeder I absolutely loved I wouldn't hesitate to come check out my home... although I don't feel that the type of home, or even fencing has anything to do with responsible dog ownership. I taught Buck and Dude to respect fences of ALL heights (even our little 4 foot fence that I hate) that they don't attempt to get out even with raccoons walking by. I would never trust them back there alone, but I wouldn't even if the fence was 8 feet tall. I've seen JRTs scale 8 foot fences.


I think 99% of dog owners are like 99% of breeders. Not very good. Outside of the people who I know who do rescue work, I really don't know anyone who thinks about their dogs like I think about mine. 

Most of my family keeps dogs outside most of the time. I had a friend at work who believed if a dog needed something that cost more than half his mortgage payment, the dog would get put down. 

I love my fence, I really do. Where we are moving, we won't have one - it will be ok with the dogs that I have because Rebel is easily trained to stick around (in fact it's better for him because he has issues being behind a barrrier) and Snorkels is slow. But I probably won't be allowed to foster without a fence. 

I've had home visits and also done a couple - I agree, it's rather weird. However, I know a hoarder who talks like she is the absolute best rescue/foster/animal lover in the world. Yet she keeps about 100 dogs and cats inside her house that never go outside. There's no way to tell something like that unless you go in - and the reason she is able to keep doing it is because she talks the rescues out of home visits. 

And she is such a good con, they give her a pass. In reality, alot of people are not who they seem to be either on the internet or in person. We found that out the hard way. 

Up until my dad got sick, I spent a considerable amount of time educating rescues on this woman. Because of her mental illness, she keeps finding new ones when the old ones stop giving her animals. I'll have to get back to that after we get moved.


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## KittyKat (Feb 11, 2011)

Dude and Bucks Mamma said:


> I don't mind applications at all but I HATE home visits. Most breeders have you fill out an application. Not a big deal. They want to know what kind of experience their potential puppy owners have with dogs and their breed in particular. I have HUGE issues with strangers coming into my home. BUT, if I found a breeder I absolutely loved I wouldn't hesitate to come check out my home... although I don't feel that the type of home, or even fencing has anything to do with responsible dog ownership. I taught Buck and Dude to respect fences of ALL heights (even our little 4 foot fence that I hate) that they don't attempt to get out even with raccoons walking by. I would never trust them back there alone, but I wouldn't even if the fence was 8 feet tall. I've seen JRTs scale 8 foot fences.


Yeah... i recall back before we got Piper there was a dog on petfinder that I just thought was adorable... it's name was Coca and it was a small terrier. I wanted to enquire about it... but first there was a very very very long application, along with us giving 3 references. Then a phone interview and house visit/inspection and in person interview/follow-up... THEN we could see the dog. I did not want to go through that to meet a dog that may have a personality that wouldn't mesh with us. What about our questions?!

With our breeder we called her up and spoke on the phone a few times, I asked a ton of questions and she answered them all, and we talked about all sorts of things - then we showed up to meet in person and meet the mommy (daddy was a US champ and thus, wasn't around, he'd already... "done the deed"). After the litter was born we got to see all the pups and we picked out the one that had the best energy for us. 

All but one littermate showed up at our place the next summer for a party - Piper's brother came from 10 hours away! Great experience overall.


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## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

Imgliniel said:


> oh, and more on topic about the BSL stuff. Lucy is a black and tan and probably a dobbie mix. But it is honestly anyones guess (I really need to upload pictures). My insurance tried to cancel me for having a "rottweiler type dog", type dog?!?! excuse me? I wrote them along letter including the paperwork from my vet, when we got her at 8 months (or should I say took her in off the streets) the vet thought she was a hound mix (which she has a VERY natural point so it is totally possible). So her vet paperwork all says hound mix. I advised them that she may have similar coloring but if they are going to go on that then they needed to cancel anyone with the same color chihuahua. Also every dog breed or mix thereof in the following list. I then included a list of EVERY SINGLE breed I could find that can come in black and tan, it was a fairly long list. They reinstated my policy and appologized.


this is a very good reason not to crop Dobie's ears - in fact, a rescue I worked with told me they are getting more and more requests for uncropped Dobies by people who live where there is a homeowners association that has breed restrictions. They look alot like a black and tan coonhound 

and yes, apparently people do buy a house where an HOA can not only tell you what color to paint your front door, but what kind of dog you can have.


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## Dude and Bucks Mamma (May 14, 2011)

Honestly, I haven't heard of any of our military friends all over the US facing a neuter requirement. I really don't think the military cares if your dog breeds. They just care about proper identification. I would move out into town if they tried to get me to alter my dogs. I don't feel there is a need to neuter. I prefer NOT to remove a whole system from their bodies. You don't see men going off and paying to be "neutered" willy nilly and they create more "oops" litters than dogs do! Hahaha. 

I would have done the same thing as you on the insurance. I have people who have never seen a smooth collie ask me if Dude is a GSD mix. GSDs aren't a favorite breed of apartment complexes or insurance companies and I would be LIVID if the same thing happened to me.


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## Dude and Bucks Mamma (May 14, 2011)

xellil said:


> I think 99% of dog owners are like 99% of breeders. Not very good. Outside of the people who I know who do rescue work, I really don't know anyone who thinks about their dogs like I think about mine.
> 
> Most of my family keeps dogs outside most of the time. I had a friend at work who believed if a dog needed something that cost more than half his mortgage payment, the dog would get put down.
> 
> ...


And that's why I would allow a home check if I found a breeder with a pup I just had to have. They aren't doing it to get a look into your home. They are doing it to make sure the pup will be well cared for. 

How did she talk the shelters out of home checks? I thought they were pretty strict on that.


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## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

Smooth talker. Also, the rescue I got Rebel from, even though saying a home check will ALWAYS be done, didn't do a home check on me. The foster dog I had was going to a home and I begged them to do a home visit because I didn't think it was a good home, and they didn't. They told me they had adopted from the Humane Society so all was good. 

And like my hoarder - once you get a dog from a place, it's like a recommendation. You can tell everyone else - oh I've fostered/adopted from this one and that one, and they are lazy or short handed and give you a pass because someone else would have caught it if there were a problem.

I've done that myself - I tell people I've adopted from so-and-so and I am in like gold without them ever checking on me. I could have 60 cats in my basement - only one rescue has actually done a home visit but every one says they do.

They SOUND strict, but alot aren't. And some are so strict it's a wonder they ever adopt a dog out. I think it's hard to get just the right balance of doing a proper investigation without being too lax or too strict.


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## Imgliniel (Sep 1, 2011)

Dude and Bucks Mamma said:


> And that's why I would allow a home check if I found a breeder with a pup I just had to have. They aren't doing it to get a look into your home. They are doing it to make sure the pup will be well cared for.
> 
> How did she talk the shelters out of home checks? I thought they were pretty strict on that.


I have an aunt who is very similar, believe me people like that can be EXCELLENT con artists. If you talked to my aunt on the phone you would think she was the absolute most amazing knowledgable cat rescue in the world. Unless you showed up at her house. Which is why she has a PO box and no longer even lets family know where she lives. She eventually realized it was someone in the family continually hounding animal control about her. Moved out in the middle of the night and no one, and I mean not even our grandfather her dad knows her address.


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## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

Oh, and I've also done home visits FOR rescues where no one has ever checked me out, called people, etc.


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## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

Imgliniel said:


> I have an aunt who is very similar, believe me people like that can be EXCELLENT con artists. If you talked to my aunt on the phone you would think she was the absolute most amazing knowledgable cat rescue in the world. Unless you showed up at her house. Which is why she has a PO box and no longer even lets family know where she lives. She eventually realized it was someone in the family continually hounding animal control about her. Moved out in the middle of the night and no one, and I mean not even our grandfather her dad knows her address.


yep, normal people just dont' understand how far these people will go to keep their secret yet continue to get animals. I know people who have seen the inside of my brother's house (where this hoarder lived for a year and half), where you couldn't go inside without a full respirator, and yet still think it could not possibly be what it is.

It's really incomprehensible until you run into one of them, how they manage to go for years conning people. I suspect some do it until they die, because I don't think it's easy to get "cured" of hoarding.


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## nupe (Apr 26, 2011)

xellil said:


> That's the danger in all this. People don't rise up over pit bulls - but what if it's my beloved Dobie? Or somneone else's Great Dane? What happens when a labrador bites a kid and the town decides to ban them?
> 
> Very scary. You allow one breed to be banned, you lose control over it. This proposal was for about 90% of large breed dogs. And it's not just dogs - it's so many other things. Governments shouldn't be able to do this to people.




HERE HERE HERE!! Well said!!


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## Dude and Bucks Mamma (May 14, 2011)

Geez, that's some crazy stuff. I always feel like I am a hoarder with my 2 dogs, 2 (soon to be 4) rats and our future green tree frogs who are slowly having their habitat set up over the next several months. I can handle these guys though. I can afford care for all of them and my house is as clean as someone who doesn't have pets. I don't know what I would do if I got to the point where I had too many animals. That wouldn't be a good feeling...

The ratty girls I am picking up next month are from a rescue that took in 80 of the rats from the Hoarders episode. I don't know if the girls I bring home will be from the hoarder house since there are over 200 to choose from there but there's a pretty good chance.


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## Caty M (Aug 13, 2010)

That's cool- your rat will be a celebrity!

I know what you mean- people say I have so many pets (two cats, two dogs, three guinea pigs)- BUT they are cared for, given vet attention, good food, reasonably trained, and all get a lot of attention from us. That being said, I feel like I am stretched sometimes so until Tess is older we are not getting a third dog, she's a very needy and high maintenance pup!


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## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

Rats? wow. I can't watch hoarders, it really makes me angry because even though i know it's a mental illness I don't feel sorry for these people, and the show always makes them out to be sympathetic. 

Who cares if they get upset if you take their animals away involuntarily? Alot of these people run their families off or force them to live in that godawful smell and don't care. Alot of murderers have some kind of mental illness and it doesn't excuse them. 

In the end, your children should be more important than your dogs. Unless they are devil kids.

I think it's on the Humane Society page where it says hoarding is the cruelest thing that can happen to an animal, and that includes puppy mills! Because they tend to live longer than in puppy mills, and suffer more chronic diseases. This hoarding this is also getting more and more common. 

Actually, it kind of irks me that they present these hoarders as people we should feel sorry for. If someone was purposely killing 100 dogs and cats, slowly and painfully, we wouldn't have any sympathy. 


Good luck with the rats - I know one thing, they will be a billion times better off with you!


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## Dude and Bucks Mamma (May 14, 2011)

Xellil, I am the same way. I just can't feel sorry for them. 

My husband is number one and my dogs are number two. Then come the rats. I don't care about the frogs, to be honest. They are happiest left alone anyways. Hahaha. They are going to be Nick's pets... although I have a feeling I will be doing much more for them than I should since Nick is gone so much...

I hope they are a billion times better off with me!


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## ShanniBella (Jul 1, 2011)

No breed of dog is immune to BSL this is why its all about educating. Unfortunately my breed of dog the "pit bull" doesn't attract alot of responsible owners and the media loves to exploit them when a bite happens. Pit bull bites around here in Boston make headlines and the 6 pm news. Banning a specific breed will never be the answer but I don't feel it will ever get better because there are always going to be those few who don't want to listen or learn.


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## tricia beaver (Jul 16, 2011)

even huskies???? really??? WOW......thats is SO not right!


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## Dude and Bucks Mamma (May 14, 2011)

Honestly, I think it WILL get better. So many more people are seeing what is happening now that more and more breeds are being targeted. This means more people out there educating. I have seen so many more responsible dog owners in the last couple of years than I ever have and it is because people with "dangerous" breeds are making a bigger effort to educate the ignorant and the fearful. I don't have a "bad' breed yet but I do my best to educate whenever possible because I love so many of them.


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