# Major itching



## erinwagner (Aug 30, 2010)

My 7 month old has been itching and biting himself. I have probably noticed it more as we just returned from a 3 week road trip with both dogs and spent a lot of time in close quarters (the vehicle). He doesn't have fleas....I have checked many times. It seems as though our 2 year old was itchy as a pup and kind of outgrew it but I don't remember it being this bad. He gets fish oil with his meals....1 tablet twice each day. It doesn't seem to matter what protein he is eating....it's pretty constant. I hate to try Benedryl and was thinking of taking him into our holistic vet to see what she thinks but I thought I post first to see if anyone had a similar situation. Thanks.


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## BeagleCountry (Jan 20, 2012)

Consider giving him a bath in a mild, gentle shampoo with no conditioner. This will remove anything that may be on the coat or skin. Pollen is high in many areas this time of year. Wipe him off with a diluted vinegar and water solution when he comes inside. It could also be the fish oil. Do not add it for several days to see if there is a difference. Do not use fish oils with mixed tocopherols as this may contain soy. Look at the other ingredients in the tablets. It is best to stay as close to the natural source as possible. Feed salmon, sardines, or mackerel. Use a liquid or capsule instead of a tablet. Avoid supplements from discount stores such as Walmart as there is no guarantee that the ingredients are the same as stated on the label. One last thought is to add some animal fat when feeding lean meats.

There is another discussion of allergy treatments that has other ideas.
http://dogfoodchat.com/forum/holistic-alternatives-remedies/15683-natural-allergy-solutions.html


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## erinwagner (Aug 30, 2010)

I will check the fish oil....they are capsules but they are from Costco. I thought of eliminating that but had always heard that it was good for their coat. He does get a bath with a mild Espania product about every 8 weeks but I will try the vinegar and water. Guess I'll be sleeping with a pickle tonight


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

make sure the capsules from costco do not use mixed tocopherols as their source....usually, that is from soy.

and, if you're having a season as we are, then the only thing i can say is you have my complete sympathy.

we have been diluting bragg's apple cider vinegar and wiping them down when we come in from outside....

they also get coconut oil with their food, along with fish oil capsules from carlsons....and some other things to support their immune system from the inside out.

but, gotta say the cottonwood is at total war, along with the scotch broom and i can only hope june is better.


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## erinwagner (Aug 30, 2010)

Found this online....I am guessing since that tocopherol is mentioned they are not something I should be using.

Contributes to Heart & Vascular Health†

No Artificial Colors
No Artificial Flavors
No Yeast, Starch or Gluten

Kirkland Signature fish supply comes from deep ocean waters. Our fish oil is not supplied from farm-raised fish. State-of-the-art molecular distillation process is used to remove mercury, PCBs and dioxins, which guarantees purity and potency with reduced fish odor, on all Kirkland Signature fish oil products. The fish oil is derived from a variety of fish species, to maximize omega-3 fatty acid concentration.

Fish Oil naturally contains the Omega-3 Fatty Acids, EPA and DHA. Omega-3 Fatty Acids help maintain heart and vascular health.†

†This statement has not been evaluated by the Food and Drug Administration. This product is not intended to diagnose, treat, cure or prevent any disease.

Suggested Use:
Take one softgel three times daily with a full glass of water, preferably after a meal.

Supplement Facts:
Serving Size: 1 Softgel
Each Softgel Contains - % Daily Value:
Calories 10 (Calories from Fat 10), Total Fat 1 g - 2%*, Saturated Fat 0.5 g - 3%*, Polyunsaturated Fat 0.5 g - **, Monounsaturated Fat 0 g - **, Cholesterol 10 mg - 3%, Natural Fish Oil Concentrate 1000 mg, Omega 3 Fatty Acids (EPA/DHA and other Omega 3) 300 mg - **.

*Percent Daily Values are based on a 2,000-calorie diet.

**Daily Value not established.

Ingredients:
Fish Oil Concentrate, Gelatin, Glycerin, Water, Tocopherol. 

Contains: Fish (Anchovy, Sardine) and Soy.

Caution:
If you are pregnant or nursing, taking medication, facing surgery, have bleeding problems, or undergoing any other treatment which may affect the ability of blood to clot, consult your physician before taking this product.

Keep out of the reach of children.

USP has tested and verified ingredients, potency and manufacturing process. USP sets official standards for dietary supplements.


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## whiteleo (Sep 7, 2008)

Soy and Tocopherol, those 2 could be your culprit


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## Nana52 (Apr 28, 2012)

whiteleo said:


> Soy and Tocopherol, those 2 could be your culprit


Interesting. I've been giving what I thought was "quality" pure salmon oil ... contains tocopherols. Giving what I thought was quality "natural" supplements ... Daily Nuggets formulated by holistic vet Dr. Bob Goldstein ... contains tocopherols. Giving what I thought was "quality" immune booster (just temporarily to supposedly help Kody during recovery phase following liver/pancreas issues) ... yep, contains tocopherols. Holy crap!! Really ticks me off to think I'm doing the best I can for furkids and end up with crap!!! :tsk:

Thanks for posting this guys. I had no idea. Guess I'm off to find some fish oil sans tocopherols. Cod liver, krill, salmon .... one better than the other?

Just for chuckles and grins, this is a tiny portion of a review for Kirkland's (Costco) fish oil "The ingredients states “Fish Oil Concentrate, Gelatin, Glycerin, Water, Tocopherol. Fish Oil Concentrate is trash. Look at like this … it’s the stuff you get when you squeeze the juices from a fish’s arse. Yummy? I didn’t think so. It’s sewer of the sea." Thought I'd share :wink:


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

if soy is in a product, in the form of tocopherols.....it has to say there is soy because so many people are allergic.

mixed tocopherols are generally sourced from soy.

alpha tocopherols are usually sourced from sunflower i think.

i used to know this. 

we use carlsons. no soy.


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## Nana52 (Apr 28, 2012)

magicre said:


> if soy is in a product, in the form of tocopherols.....it has to say there is soy because so many people are allergic.
> 
> mixed tocopherols are generally sourced from soy.
> 
> ...


The immune booster says "alpha" ... the salmon oil and Daily Nuggets say "mixed" with no mention of soy. I just looked at the Carlson, must be a different "version" from what you have, because it specifically says "contains soy." There were several different kinds; I'll look again. 

So would feeding sardines, mackerel, and such from time to time provide the needed omega-6 sans soy and whatever? If memory serves, omega-6 from flax seed, chia, is not appropriate. Right?


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

carlson's has several versions.

i think there's lifeline salmon oil and that's a good one, too, for dogs.

we feed sardines, mackerel and herring. we also give fish oil.

and we also give them a mixture of pumpkin/sesame/sunflower/chia seed. little tiny bit in their hamburger mix.

if they only digest a teeny tiny bit, i want them to have as much omega three as i can to off set the amounts of sixes and nines they are getting.

plus, when bubba was losing his fur --- before i discovered dietary fat was causing it, i had some friends give me that seed mix combon, slightly ground...and it helped his fur grow back..or , at least started it. 

you were talking about pancreatitis...generally that inflammation of the pancreas is caused from a few things...too much in the way of an overload of carbs, secondary to liver disease, but rarely from a raw diet....

when the pancreas does get inflamed....then the fat needs to be watched, as the pancreas and liver work so closely as partners...but generally it is not fat that causes pancreatitis...it's sugar.


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## Nana52 (Apr 28, 2012)

The pancreatitis issue is kind of strange really. He wasn't even all that sick when I took him to vet, just "off his feed" for a couple of days, vomited 2 or 3 times, but he'd had a dental cleaning about a week and a half before that and was pucky for a couple of days after, which we attributed to the clindamycin (I think that's what he was on) which was stopped, and I just thought he was having some ongoing GI problem from all that. The vet wasn't overly concerned, but she thought we should check some lab because his phenobarbital dose (he has seizures) was a bit high for a dog his size, and those levels hadn't been checked in a while. When the lab results returned, his alk phos was over 6000 (yes, over 6000), and his amylase and lipase were about 5 times normal. She actually said the pancreatitis could be from me switching his food around so much (thanks for that doc). She scolds me a lot about how I feed them, thinks they should get one food and only one food all day every day and so on and so on. 

Anyway, we lowered his phenobarbital, I fed him nothing but that revolting Rx food for 30 days, and his alk phos came down to 1000, and pancreatic enzymes returned to normal, and she told me he needed to be on low fat from now on to help prevent another episode.

I have no idea if the liver problem was totally due to the phenobarbital (I so want to get him off that, but that's another rant for another time) or was it related to the inflamed pancreas? And was the inflamed pancreas related to an infection from dental issues and not getting the antibiotics after or something all together different (did I cause it messing with their food)? Or was it one of the many things that can compromise the pancreas that's darn difficult to figure out? It's a puzzle within a mystery wrapped up in a conumdrum.

Sorry. That was way more than you wanted to know I'm sure. It's just that I don't really have know for certain what caused any of it, and I'm kinda floundering, trying to keep him/them well and above all do do no harm. Ya know?


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

i think you need a new vet.

when the pancreas gets inflamed, the liver generally gets inflamed also...and begins to kick things back into the blood stream.

phenobaritol.... he had seizures before he got diagnosed with pancreatitis?

is he still having seizures?

man, if ever a dog needs to be raw fed, this one qualifies.


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## Nana52 (Apr 28, 2012)

magicre said:


> i think you need a new vet.
> 
> when the pancreas gets inflamed, the liver generally gets inflamed also...and begins to kick things back into the blood stream.
> 
> ...


I do need a new vet, but I'm kinda between a rock and a hard place right now. I've learned to just nod my head and lot and go home and research and decide what I want to do. Sometimes I even pray a little.

Yes, he's had seizures since before I got him, which was about 4 years ago. He'd been through 2 or 3 homes before that so I have absolutely no history as to when they started, if he's always had them or if there was any kind of trauma or illness or something that happened. Zilch. He's only had 1 since this past August, which is pretty amazing, because prior to that it was least 1 and usually 2-3 per month. I've read that, while not conclusive, it's possible that a diet heavy in grains could be linked to seizure frequency, as well as processing grains, which dogs aren't designed for, of course, can put undue strain on the liver (hence the removal of all grains from his/their diet). I've also been diligently reading and researching into some possible natural/holistic remedies. I've narrowed it down to a couple of things I want to try; I may not be able to completely eliminate the phenobarb but if I can lower the dose, even a little, while controlling the seizures, I'll take it. Cause it's not a matter of if but how long before it destroys his liver. Vet's never going to go along with it, though, so like switching to raw, I'll be on my own. 

It is starting to sound like I'm gambling too much with my dogs' health and well being?

I've just realized that I've taken this thread very far astray from the original topic. My apologies.


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## angelbears (Jun 9, 2011)

Nana your doing great. Your not gambling with your dogs health. I have had 3 dogs with seizures and each were different. The vets didn't know their A from a hole in the ground. This was mainly before the internet, so I didn't have a lot to go on but I figured out what worked best for each dog and went with it. If it was left up to the vets they would have stayed doped up on pheno and died from liver failure.


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## Gavin (Feb 14, 2012)

Hi

We are also struggling with itching dogs lately and can't seem to find the source. It can't be chicken as we started raw feeding about 5 months ago and the itching only started about 3 weeks ago. The oil supplement discussion wrang a bit of a bell.
We have been giving them a supplement call Efazol:

Ingerdients:
COMPOSITION:
Each ml contains:
Linoleic acid …………………………………………………… 416 mg
Linolenic acid …………………………………………………… 43 mg
Gamma Linolenic acid ……………………………………… 1.34mg
Eicosapentaenoic acid ……………………………………… 6.6 mg
Docosahexaenoic acid ……………………………………… 4.4 mg
Synthetic Retinol Concentrate (oily form) BP
(as Vitamin A Palmitate) …………………………………… 112.7 IU
Alpha-tocopheryl Acetate BP ………………………………… 1.86 IU
Biotin BP …………………………………………………… 0.0018 mg
Pyridoxine Hydrochloride BP ………………………………… 0.1 mg
Zinc Sulphate monohydrate USP …………………………… 6.1 mg
Inositol ………………………………………………………… 0.33 mg
Omega 6:3 ratio …………………………………………………… 6:1

Is there anything in there that could be the issue?

Thanks


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

Gavin said:


> Hi
> 
> We are also struggling with itching dogs lately and can't seem to find the source. It can't be chicken as we started raw feeding about 5 months ago and the itching only started about 3 weeks ago. The oil supplement discussion wrang a bit of a bell.
> We have been giving them a supplement call Efazol:
> ...


i guess the important question is this.

is it helping?


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## Nana52 (Apr 28, 2012)

Hark! I think I maybe found one without soy/tocopherols. Finest Natural Fish Oil 1200 mg. It's not salmon oil, but I'm not tied to that or anything. Does this look like a good one? Someone? Anyone? Please and thank you.

No yeast, wheat, gluten, milk or milk derivatives, lactose, sugar, preservatives, artificial color, artificial flavor, or sodium (less than 5 mg per serving) 

Contains fish (anchovy, mackerel, sardine) ingredients

Ingredients
Gelatin , Glycerin

Nutrition Facts
Serving Size : 2 Softgels 
Serving per Container : 90
Amount Per Serving % Daily value*
Calories 25.0calories 
Total Fat 2.5g 
Cholesterol 15.0mg
Fish Oil 2400.0mg 
Calories From Fat - Calories 20.0
Saturated Fat - Total Fat 0.5g
Polyunsaturated Fat - Total Fat1.0g 
Monounsaturated Fat - Total Fat 0.5g 
EPA - Fish Oil 0.0units 
DHA - Fish Oil 0.0units 
Total Omega-3 Fatty Acids - Fish Oil 720.0mg


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

Pectin , Calcium Chloride

other than this, it looks fine. i think this is the one used by many on a yahoo group i belong to.


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## Nana52 (Apr 28, 2012)

Kool Beans! He definitely needs something. This whole low fat deal is giving him some really dry skin. Thanks ever so (I don't see pectin and calcium chloride ... what am I missing).


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

when was his last blood test?


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## Nana52 (Apr 28, 2012)

angelbears said:


> Nana your doing great. Your not gambling with your dogs health. I have had 3 dogs with seizures and each were different. The vets didn't know their A from a hole in the ground. This was mainly before the internet, so I didn't have a lot to go on but I figured out what worked best for each dog and went with it. If it was left up to the vets they would have stayed doped up on pheno and died from liver failure.


Thanks for encouraging words. If you have any magic seizure management secrets that don't involve phenobarbital and/or potassium what-ever-the-heck it is (vet wanted to add a 2nd drug, hell, I'm trying to get him off the one he's on) do share.

D


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## Malika04 (May 14, 2012)

Malika is my partial hairless itchy dog at 8 years old. She was fine a year ago. 

I am concerned she is eating grain fed chickens and I might put her on organic raw.

My other 2 dogs are fine on the lower grade raw.


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

Malika04 said:


> Malika is my partial hairless itchy dog at 8 years old. She was fine a year ago.
> 
> I am concerned she is eating grain fed chickens and I might put her on organic raw.
> 
> My other 2 dogs are fine on the lower grade raw.


organic chickens are fed organic grain.

natural chickens forage. you won't find natural chickens at a grocery store....at least not where i live.

it is possible your girl needs fat in her diet.


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