# Chicken meal vs Poultry (by-product) meal



## DaViking (Sep 27, 2011)

Here are some protein meal products from Griffin Industries and American Proteins. Make sure to compare the poultry (by-product) meals with the chicken meal product  Where are all the nasty indigestible ingredients some preach about in these 90%+ digestible products? Poultry is btw 98% chicken, at least according to some manufacturers. 2% others like turkey and duck, no bluejays. Knowing the individual percentages in the poultry meals allow pet food manufacturers to split it on the label if they prefer, or leave it as poultry meal.

Chicken Meal
Low Ash Pet Food Poultry Protein Meal | American Proteins, Inc.


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## monster'sdad (Jul 29, 2012)

Low ash pet food grade chicken and poultry by-product meals are excellent for dogs. They contain meat, organs, the intestines and skin and that is all. No beaks or feathers. Picky eaters like them better as well. The amino acid profile is generally better and there is less phosphorous that needs balancing.

The best grades of by-product meals are better than the muscle meat meals used by most companies.

It is funny that so many people believe their dogs are like wild canines but the thought of feeding them like one repulses them. Would any wolf turn down "by-products".

I have many asian friends that consider "by-products" dinner.

Here is an excellent 31/21, low carbs and low ash. I would guess at least 90% animal protein and its costs about $35 for 50lbs.

"Chicken By-Product Meal, Brown Rice, White Rice, Chicken Fat (Preserved with Mixed Tocopherols), Barley, Oats, Pork Meal, Fish Meal, Dried Yeast, Potassium Chloride, Salt, Glucosamine Hydrochloride, Vitamin E Supplement, Zinc Oxide, Chondroitin Sulfate, Copper Sulfate, Menadione Sodium Bisulfite Complex, Ferrous Sulfate, Niacin Supplement, Manganese Oxide, Calcium Pantothenate, Vitamin A Supplement, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride, Thiamine Mononitrate, Ethylenediamine Dihydriodide, Zinc Methionine Complex, Vitamin B12 Supplement, Vitamin D3 Supplement, Manganese Methionine Complex, Choline Chloride, Riboflavin, Cobalt Glucoheptonate, Folic Acid, Biotin and Sodium Selenite."


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## monster'sdad (Jul 29, 2012)

schism said:


> What company makes it?



Hi-Tek Rations, which makes a solid food. This line is called Intimidator.


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## DaViking (Sep 27, 2011)

Yes, by-product meals as a product is not inferior to "pure" meals. It's more a question of what food you are looking at. There are variations among all meals, "pure" or not and I'm much more skeptical to a by-product meal (or any meal) found in say Gravy Train than the one in Hi-Tek or Eukanuba PP for that matter.

Here some products from West Coast Reduction in Vancouver.


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## Sheltielover25 (Jan 18, 2011)

I actually don't think the by-product factor makes it disturbing. I agree, to some degree, by-products, minus intestines which as pointless, aren't bad. My dogs eat a beak a month, and my dogs each a chicken heart a month, and two feet a month; my dogs eat a whole chicken a month. My dogs don't, however, eat by-product after by-product. They eat many other meats, mostly RED. Dogs shouldn't be fed the same animal over and over, nor should they be fed by-products over and over again. Another bone to pick with any food with by-products is think about the quality of chicken you're feeding. It's disgusting, genetically modified chicken with breasts made to get huge and pumped full of hormones and antibiotics to gain weight. Also these chickens are abused never seeing daylight and pumped full of genetically modified corn as their diet. It's disgusting, and it's unethical. It's one thing to have to buy low quality, unethical meat due to finances. Sure, just don't pay enough these days, I get that. But to try to claim they're quality and excuse the unethical things they do and praise them, uh no way. You're feeding an inferior product and you're going to see the results, most likely, at some point. You can't just add in synthetic vitamins and eat food nutritionally void and get away with it for a lifetime.


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## Unosmom (May 3, 2009)

I don't have a problem with by-products, as long as they are named.


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## DaViking (Sep 27, 2011)

Sheltielover25 said:


> Another bone to pick with any food with by-products is think about the quality of chicken you're feeding. It's disgusting, genetically modified chicken with breasts made to get huge and pumped full of hormones and antibiotics to gain weight. Also these chickens are abused never seeing daylight and pumped full of genetically modified corn as their diet. It's disgusting, and it's unethical. If you "support" this kind of industry, you're sick. It's one thing to have to buy low quality, unethical meat due to finances. Sure, just don't pay enough these days, I get that. But to try to claim they're quality and excuse the unethical things they do and praise them, uh no way. You're feeding an inferior product and you're going to see the results, most likely, at some point. You can't just add in synthetic vitamins and eat food nutritionally void and get away with it for a lifetime.


With all due respect, give it a rest with your endless extremist preaching. You just called 90% of everyone out there who eat or feed chicken, including raw feeders, for sick people. Real classy, offending most here. If you want to make a point about modern chicken production there are a million other places on the internet you can do that. A DFC thread about by-product meals is not the place. Your rants adds nothing positive.


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## monster'sdad (Jul 29, 2012)

DaViking said:


> With all due respect, give it a rest with your endless extremist preaching. You just called 90% of everyone out there who eat or feed chicken, including raw feeders, for sick people. Real classy, offending most here. If you want to make a point about modern chicken production there are a million other places on the internet you can do that. A DFC thread about by-product meals is not the place. Your rants adds nothing positive.


Totally agree, thanks for posting that. That person is totally wrong, 100% wrong. Hormones are not used in chicken production in the US, Canada or anywhere in Europe and many other places. Read that again Hormones ARE ILLEGAL IN CHICKEN PRODUCTION. They are also ILLEGAL in hogs. 

Also, what you call "genetically modified" is just traditional cross-breading. Would you tell a sheltie breeder that pairs certain dogs for desired traits a mad scientist? No. There are no "genetically modified chickens" being raised for the supply at this point in time.

As for antibiotics, there are many brands of food that use ANTIBIOTIC FREE chicken . Overall, antibiotic use is dropping very quickly and soon probably won't be used at all.

When I read that person's posts it reminds me of the old saying: "Don't let the facts get in the way of a good story"


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## CorgiPaws (Mar 31, 2009)

DaViking said:


> With all due respect, give it a rest with your endless extremist preaching. You just called 90% of everyone out there who eat or feed chicken, including raw feeders, for sick people. Real classy, offending most here. If you want to make a point about modern chicken production there are a million other places on the internet you can do that. A DFC thread about by-product meals is not the place. Your rants adds nothing positive.


Do you know how much sense it makes to report a post, then continue to call them out in open forum?
None.


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## monster'sdad (Jul 29, 2012)

Unosmom said:


> I don't have a problem with by-products, as long as they are named.


It comes down to good companies verus bad companies. When a good company uses by-product meals they are of the "petfood" grade. There is no added risk when it comes to by-products as they are taken from the same chickens and turkeys and handled in the exact same way. The low ash kind in dog food only use meat, skin, organs and the valuable intenstines. The regular pet food grades have some bone so the ash is just a bit higher. 

If you believe the by-products in Tuffy Gold, Sportmix & Intimidator are low grade, then you cannot honestly say Nutrisource, Hi-Tek Rations and Midwestern Pet are reputable companies.

Fromm used to use by-product meals years back by the way, until they went "up-scale".


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## DaViking (Sep 27, 2011)

CorgiPaws said:


> Do you know how much sense it makes to report a post, then continue to call them out in open forum?
> None.


Continue? I called someone out on BS and reported the post as insulting. One excluding the other is new to me. Sense? Clearly it did to some. Edit what you feel is appropriate.


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## monster'sdad (Jul 29, 2012)

DaViking said:


> Sense? Clearly it did to some.


To me it does. Blatently incorrect posts should be identified as such by the more learned members of the forum if the moderators do not remove them, whether it is about corn, analytical errors, incorrect facts and statements that bloat is not partially due to genetics.


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## DaViking (Sep 27, 2011)

monster'sdad said:


> It comes down to good companies verus bad companies. When a good company uses by-product meals they are of the "petfood" grade. There is no added risk when it comes to by-products as they are taken from the same chickens and turkeys and handled in the exact same way. The low ash kind in dog food only use meat, skin, organs and the valuable intenstines. The regular pet food grades have some bone so the ash is just a bit higher.
> 
> If you believe the by-products in Tuffy Gold, Sportmix & Intimidator are low grade, then you cannot honestly say Nutrisource, Hi-Tek Rations and Midwestern Pet are reputable companies.
> 
> Fromm used to use by-product meals years back by the way, until they went "up-scale".


Speaking of Sportmix. I have a need for a food with lots of energy but moderate protein levels. I have looked at some of their products and are considering trying either their black Energy Plus Mini Chunk (no wheat) or the blue Hi-Energy food. Do you know what are the big differences between Sportmix and ProPac?


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## monster'sdad (Jul 29, 2012)

DaViking said:


> Speaking of Sportmix. I have a need for a food with lots of energy but moderate protein levels. I have looked at some of their products and are considering trying either their black Energy Plus Mini Chunk (no wheat) or the blue Hi-Energy food. Do you know what are the big differences between Sportmix and ProPac?


ProPac is made in the EU Facility that Midwestern Pet owns and is an upscale version of the classic chicken and corn formula, like the old Pro Plan. Pro Pac has more traditional GA's. 

You are looking at the right food, the Black Bag of Sportmix, 24/20. This is a very popular food in US for certain dogs that use lots of calories and have trouble with holding weight. In some parts of the US this food goes for 50 cents lb. Victor also makes a 24/20 with beef and sorghum. I have faith that the "meat meal" in that Sportmix is a good grade of beef and pork like they say.

People love the black bag. Serious dog people use it. I mean serious hunt trial kennels.

I don't believe the quality of ingredients is any lower if that is what you are asking.

You can also look at this one:

http://www.loyallpetfood.com/loyall/en/products/high-performance/index.jsp


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## DaViking (Sep 27, 2011)

monster'sdad said:


> ProPac is made in the EU Facility that Midwestern Pet owns and is an upscale version of the classic chicken and corn formula, like the old Pro Plan. Pro Pac has more traditional GA's.
> 
> You are looking at the right food, the Black Bag of Sportmix, 24/20. This is a very popular food in US for certain dogs that use lots of calories and have trouble with holding weight. In some parts of the US this food goes for 50 cents lb. Victor also makes a 24/20 with beef and sorghum. I have faith that the "meat meal" in that Sportmix is a good grade of beef and pork like they say.
> 
> ...


Yes, that's part of it. I saw it retailed for as low as $37 for 50lb a cpl of places. I just don't want to get stuck with a lot of indigestible protein and china ingredients if you know what I mean. I know Pro Pac to be a good brand and to me it make sense for a company like Midwestern to use products/ingredients from the same north american suppliers to cut cost. But if the price is a reflection of all foreign lower quality ingredients I'm not so sure I'm interested.


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## SaharaNight Boxers (Jun 28, 2011)

Unosmom said:


> I don't have a problem with by-products, as long as they are named.


I do totally agree with this. There are definitely some by-products which are good. Feet are one I can think of immediately. Duke gets them daily and are a great source of glucosamine and condroitin. But I's definitely not going to buy a food from Purina, Pedigree or the like that only has by-product meal as its meat source. I don't trust that meal.


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## monster'sdad (Jul 29, 2012)

DaViking said:


> Yes, that's part of it. I saw it retailed for as low as $37 for 50lb a cpl of places. I just don't want to get stuck with a lot of indigestible protein and china ingredients if you know what I mean. I know Pro Pac to be a good brand and to me it make sense for a company like Midwestern to use products/ingredients from the same north american suppliers to cut cost. But if the price is a reflection of all foreign lower quality ingredients I'm not so sure I'm interested.


The price is more a reflection of the audience that buys it. The Black Bag is a staple of the hunting community and that is a frugal bunch of people, so its sold in very large quantities in paper bags and no marketing.

There is someone on here with two German Shorthairs, Submariner I think. Ask that person how many trial kennels use the Black Bag. I know Walnut Hill Kennels usse that food and that is one of the most decorated hunt kennels in the US.


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## 1605 (May 27, 2009)

monster'sdad said:


> The price is more a reflection of the audience that buys it. The Black Bag is a staple of the hunting community and that is a frugal bunch of people, so its sold in very large quantities in paper bags and no marketing.
> 
> There is someone on here with two German Shorthairs, Submariner I think. Ask that person how many trial kennels use the Black Bag. I know Walnut Hill Kennels usse that food and that is one of the most decorated hunt kennels in the US.


Yup... that's me. 

Not only is our younger dog directly out of Walnut Hill, but our older dog was sired by Walnut Hill's Fritz so they are actually related. 

Although I don't know what Walnut Hill feeds their dogs, the kennel is well regarded in field dog circles in both performance and training. 

They also have their fair share of Dual Champions (field and conformation), Fritz being one of the best examples.

Edit: did happen to talk with our friends up at Walnut Hill & they tell us they feed their dogs a mix of Sportmix High Performance and Purina Pro Plan High Performance.


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## monster'sdad (Jul 29, 2012)

SubMariner said:


> Yup... that's me.
> 
> Not only is our younger dog directly out of Walnut Hill, but our older dog was sired by Walnut Hill's Fritz so they are actually related.
> 
> ...


And Crosswinds uses Dr. Tim's, so there is even more evidence that the professional kennels use more traditional formulas at various price points.


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## DaViking (Sep 27, 2011)

Dr. Cheryl Morris, Comparative Nutritionist, address more inaccurate information from Dr Karen Becker regarding by-products.
Evolve Animal Services: By - Products

There's also a link to a free canine nutrition webinar with Dr. Greg Aldrich at the bottom. The webinar is this Thursday November 29. On December 6 Dr Cheryl Morris will give a free webinar on raw diets.


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## monster'sdad (Jul 29, 2012)

DaViking said:


> Dr. Cheryl Morris, Comparative Nutritionist, address more inaccurate information from Dr Karen Becker regarding by-products.
> Evolve Animal Services: By - Products
> 
> There's also a link to a free canine nutrition webinar with Dr. Greg Aldrich at the bottom. The webinar is this Thursday November 29. On December 6 Dr Cheryl Morris will give a free webinar on raw diets.


Karen Becker is not a nutritionist she is a pain specialist. She has no background in nutrition.


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## Georgiapeach (Jan 24, 2011)

monster'sdad said:


> Karen Becker is not a nutritionist she is a pain specialist. She has no background in nutrition.


Dr. Karen Becker is a holistic vet. Here's a link to her bio: Integrative Pet Care Expert, Dr. Karen Becker - Mercola.com

Using several of her tips, I've turned a mess of an allergy westie mix into a much more comfortable one. I wish she practiced in my area.

Pain management is only one of her areas of expertise. Check her credentials in the link.


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## monster'sdad (Jul 29, 2012)

Georgiapeach said:


> Dr. Karen Becker is a holistic vet. Here's a link to her bio: Integrative Pet Care Expert, Dr. Karen Becker - Mercola.com
> 
> Using several of her tips, I've turned a mess of an allergy westie mix into a much more comfortable one. I wish she practiced in my area.
> 
> Pain management is only one of her areas of expertise. Check her credentials in the link.


I did, perhaps you read another. She is a clever marketer. She is not a Clinicial Nutritionsist. Spin her anyway you want but she is like any other quack I have met over the years.

She is presentable and convincing and that is about it.


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