# Afraid of Water Run off Grates in the Street



## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

bubba the pug...my little rescue from almost a year ago.

his history was not fun for him...and we've kind of wrestled with some fears, like aluminum foil....things like that...

when we got him, he had been kept in a garage....cabled to a crate with a piece of plywood as his bed....and his anus had been bleached....very jumpy, scared, fearful little guy....little by little, we have worked on each and every one of them....some more successful than others, like the foil...

we cured that one by putting food on it...seems food is his weakness....
and, over time, while he still jumps at bravo tv commercials and some others...he's actually starting to become a real dog.

until.

last week we had to put our nichi to sleep.....she didn't live with us. she lived with honey's mom....but bubba knows her, since they go to the groomer together every five weeks...and she comes over to visit....they are not roomies, like malia is to him, but he knew her.

of course we were crying....and i think there might be a connection....

both of my dogs are walked at least three times per day....even if it is around the block, but mostly 1/2 mile per walk....simply because they need the exercise plus, he was afraid to pee outside....when we first got him.

when it's not hot, we can walk five or six times a day...and he loved it.

until last week....

these grates are for water run off...they are not manhole covers...we live in seattle and normally you would see these next to the curb so that water runs down them to the sewer. in my neighbourhood, they are in the middle of the street, about thirty feed apart all over the neighbourhood.

he stops dead. leans 75 degrees, defying gravity and digs his claws into the street.

can't pull him because he's a pug....and a collapsing trachea is something to watch out for....

not so good on a harness because he is a puller...although not as bad as he used to be....

suggestions?

i have picked him up and held him....on the grate...i've walked backwards leaving a food trail toward the grate.....

i have stopped and coaxed him toward the grate....

so far, not much is working..he gets this look in his eyes and just freaks....stops dead...digs in...


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## merlin371 (Jul 26, 2010)

I've never had to deal with this sort of stuff but generally dogs just focus on something and it's hard to get them to unfocus on it, did you try a halter and make the dog look away from it? he might get used it more that way.


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

merlin371 said:


> I've never had to deal with this sort of stuff but generally dogs just focus on something and it's hard to get them to unfocus on it, did you try a halter and make the dog look away from it? he might get used it more that way.


we've done halters...but this one is a gulper and a puller and you name it, he's afraid of it.

i did get him to successfully walk around the block today...we're going on short, more frequent walks so as not to overwhelm him....

plus, there is more equilibrium in the home, and i truly believe that had something to do with it.

if anyone ever says that dogs don't pick up on our stuff....let me introduce you to my liddle friend.


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## RawFedDogs (Jun 16, 2008)

magicre said:


> he stops dead. leans 75 degrees, defying gravity and digs his claws into the street.
> 
> can't pull him because he's a pug....and a collapsing trachea is something to watch out for....
> 
> ...


I'm not sure what the problem is. Is he afraid of it? Do you want him not to be? What kind of problem is it causing that he is fearful of it? Is there a reason you can't just walk around it staying several feet away?


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

RawFedDogs said:


> I'm not sure what the problem is. Is he afraid of it? Do you want him not to be? What kind of problem is it causing that he is fearful of it? Is there a reason you can't just walk around it staying several feet away?


the grates are in the middle of the street. there is plenty of room on either side...and there are sidewalks, which is what we walk on, unless we're crossing the street.

i would rather he not be afraid, but let's face it...with a fearful dog....i've chosen to pick my battles carefully....

only reason we did anything about the aluminum foil is because it is part of daily use and it was scaring the crap out of him....

i'd rather not use a halter....since he's about 95% there with not pulling....and, no, i don't use CM's methods LOL

he will stop several feet away ...it's not as if i'm trying to get him to walk on or near them.......it's not necessary to walk on them....

i just want him to get past them....he'll stop ten feet away on the sidewalk...these grates are nowhere near him.


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## RawFedDogs (Jun 16, 2008)

So as I understand it, he won't go by the even on the sidewalk when the grates are in the middle of the street. What about if you walk up into the yards to be further away from the grates? THere should be some distance away you could get him to walk by them. Gradually, over time, you should be able to walk closer and closer as he becomes more accustomed to them.

What happens if you pick him up before he "freezes" and carry him past them on the sidewalk?


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## bdb5853 (May 21, 2010)

I can relate to this, but with the opposite problem. 

We had a frenchie years ago and we have those water drain off things on the curbs of the streets, about every 3-4 houses. Well, she saw a kitty run across a yard and disappear down one. She went nuts! We thought it was funny and let her run over and peer down the drain to see if she could find the cat.

Bad idea.

For the rest of her life (no exaggeration), she wanted to veer over and peer down EVERY storm drain to see if there might be a kitty in it. It made walking her a real pain. 

Nothing we tried could deter her from wanting to investigate EVERY DRAIN on EVERY walk. No advice but just wanted to say that I feel your pain. :wink:


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

oh, i'm sorry for laughing, bdb.....i'm feelin' ya...i really am...i put my ipod on...and we're cruisin', malia and i and bubba and suddenly...dead stop...it's unnerving LOL

bill....when i walk him on the sidewalk away from the grates, we are at least fifteen feet to the side...he will dead stop and lean, against gravity....south of the grates.....so fifteen feet either way...any further in....and i would be on someone's property....these are fairly wide streets....

i have picked him up in his frozen condition and you can imagine him frozen by nitrogen....his feet are still digging into the street that is now below him....his legs are akimbo....his face is frozen in fear....

i have taken him, that way, over to the grate and sat down with him on my lap and pieces of chicken....

i am now taking him out by himself and only around the block, not the usual mile or half mile....so as not to overwhelm him....if he walks by one because he 'forgets' to be afraid, i say nothing.....if he stops, we then take bridal steps if that makes sense.....one step and stop...one step and stop..until he's past it...

i'm hoping this works....i've never had this problem before...he's not aggressive...he's just scared of everything...we've had to desensitise him to so many things...

but then again. what could we possibly expect from a dog who lived in a garage for his first two years...so i guess this is yet another one to add to the list.


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## RawFedDogs (Jun 16, 2008)

magicre said:


> bill....when i walk him on the sidewalk away from the grates, we are at least fifteen feet to the side...he will dead stop and lean, against gravity....south of the grates.....so fifteen feet either way...any further in....and i would be on someone's property....these are fairly wide streets....


Cool, continue to do that. Don't try to take him closer, just walk by as if there was nothing to be afraid of (which there isn't.)



> i have picked him up in his frozen condition and you can imagine him frozen by nitrogen....his feet are still digging into the street that is now below him....his legs are akimbo....his face is frozen in fear..


If you are going to try picking him up, do it before he reaches his panic stage. Once he is frozen, its too late.



> i have taken him, that way, over to the grate and sat down with him on my lap and pieces of chicken....


Don't force him any closer to the grate than he absolutely has to go. MAYBE sometime off in the future, you can just walk a little closer to the grate without making any big deal out of it. WIthout him even noticing he is getting closer but this is at least a few months down the road.



> i am now taking him out by himself and only around the block, not the usual mile or half mile....so as not to overwhelm him....if he walks by one because he 'forgets' to be afraid, i say nothing.....


THIS is when you should praise and treat as if there is no tomorrow. Make a real big deal out of it. Let him know in no uncertain terms he just did something magnificient.



> if he stops, we then take bridal steps if that makes sense.....one step and stop...one step and stop..until he's past it...


Cool and if he does it without making a real big fuss, praise and treat as you make progress past it. You want him to learn that good things happen to him every time he passes by one of these grates.



> i'm hoping this works....i've never had this problem before...he's not aggressive...he's just scared of everything...we've had to desensitise him to so many things...


Follow the methods I just listed and it will work. What you are doing now just needs a little tweaking. It's important to know when to treat and when not to. You don't offer treats as a bribe to get him to do something he is not doing, particularly if he is not doing it because he is terrified. You can't teach him not to be afraid. You can only show him over time that there is no reason to be afraid. 

You reward when he does what he is supposed to only if it's not perfect. If he is pulling to the side but still walking by, great! Praise and treat when he does. He is fighting his fear and winning when he does. Let him learn that walking by a grate creates good things. VERY VERY gadually over a long time you can walk closer and closer go the grate and he will be over it. This will be a long process.



> but then again. what could we possibly expect from a dog who lived in a garage for his first two years...so i guess this is yet another one to add to the list.


You can expect him to gradually overcome his fear and learn that walking by a grate is a positive thing and causes good things to happen.

Keep us posted on progress cause there will be progress. :smile:


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## luvMyBRT (Mar 8, 2010)

I know exactly the grates you are talking about. They are here in Portland.

Is there any type of treat that Bubba goes crazy for? I would always walk with a bait bag full of treats. Whenever he walks past a grate (whether he notices or does not) I would do tons of treats and praise. Or maybe before you get to a grate get him fixated on a treat while walking by. Once your past, then tons of praise and a treat. Maybe then that one time would turn into two times, then into three times, etc...

Just my thoughts....:smile:

ETA: Bill and I were posting at the same time. Yeah! What he said. LOL.


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

ok. i will definitely try picking him up before rigor mortis sets in.....that sounds good.

ok. i will do this....

i see now the distinction between bribing and rewarding.....that's more clear to me now....we were bribing...not rewarding....ok.

believe me..he's come a long way......we are down to single fears rather than bundles of fears....

i had taken to putting him back in his kennel thinking he might feel safer....would you recommend that? or is there no reason to put him in his kennel, since it has nothing to 
do with this particular fear?


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## Jester's King (Mar 12, 2010)

magicre said:


> i had taken to putting him back in his kennel thinking he might feel safer....would you recommend that? or is there no reason to put him in his kennel, since it has nothing to
> do with this particular fear?


I'm not clear, are you bringing him home from the walk and putting him in the kennel?
I wouldn't recommend making a big deal of it in any way. Just do the training (praise/treat) RFD mentioned but when he freaks out over something, I would try to move onto acting as though nothing happened and not spend too much time comforting, as you don't want to reinforce the fear... It's like telling him "you're right that was scary how can I help you feel better."
-Bryan


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## RawFedDogs (Jun 16, 2008)

magicre said:


> i had taken to putting him back in his kennel thinking he might feel safer....would you recommend that? or is there no reason to put him in his kennel, since it has nothing to
> do with this particular fear?


This crate thing is new to me. Explain the crate problem.


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

Jester's King said:


> I'm not clear, are you bringing him home from the walk and putting him in the kennel?
> I wouldn't recommend making a big deal of it in any way. Just do the training (praise/treat) RFD mentioned but when he freaks out over something, I would try to move onto acting as though nothing happened and not spend too much time comforting, as you don't want to reinforce the fear... It's like telling him "you're right that was scary how can I help you feel better."
> -Bryan


if he walks right by the grate and hasn't reacted at all....we just keep on walking.....i agree with that...

if he stops....we do that bridal step i described before....i coax him past, telling him how brave he is and once he's past it....(this part is different because before i coaxed him past with food)...now, once he's past it, i praise and treat....that seems to be working better....

doing it this way, i think he'll be fine soon...he is, however, a smart little bugger....so food driven...sometimes i swear he actually thinks...should i stop to get a treat?  i know he isn't but it seems that way.



> This crate thing is new to me. Explain the crate problem.


as to the crate? we used to have him sleep in his crate.....because when we got him at two, he was not housetrained....and once he was, he slept in the bed....

so it would be at night time.

this is not the first time we've used the crate at night for him....and we'll do it for a week or so and it seems to comfort him. it's not for punitive measures at all.

the only other time we use it is when we're not home, because he eats the house contents


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## RawFedDogs (Jun 16, 2008)

magicre said:


> if he walks right by the grate and hasn't reacted at all....we just keep on walking.....i agree with that...


This is an important time you need to praise and treat. Anytime he performs a behavior you want repeated, you reward. *Rewarded behaviors are always repeated.* You can praise and treat without stopping walking.



> if he stops....we do that bridal step i described before....i coax him past, telling him how brave he is and once he's past it....(this part is different because before i coaxed him past with food)...now, once he's past it, i praise and treat....that seems to be working better....


Cool



> Doing it this way, i think he'll be fine soon...he is, however, a smart little bugger....so food driven...sometimes i swear he actually thinks...should i stop to get a treat?  i know he isn't but it seems that way.


Another reason to praise and treat even if he doesn't stop.



> this is not the first time we've used the crate at night for him....and we'll do it for a week or so and it seems to comfort him. it's not for punitive measures at all.


Why not leave the crate door open and let him enter and leave when he wants to?



> the only other time we use it is when we're not home, because he eats the house contents


Yes, a good use of the crate. Continue using it for that purpose.


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

> This is an important time you need to praise and treat. Anytime he performs a behavior you want repeated, you reward. *Rewarded behaviors are always repeated.* You can praise and treat without stopping walking.



we did and he did better....i'm becoming most dextrous....we stop after we've passed the grate, treat and praise. it's going to be fine after a few more times.



> Why not leave the crate door open and let him enter and leave when he wants to?


we do and he doesn't. but it's a moo point now because he's back in the bed.

we are going to begin kenneling both dogs since they've started keeping us up at night..... malia has started jumping on and off the bed and it ceased to be fun the first night and he can't be trusted not to eat the contents of the bedroom unless he's either crated or in bed with us.

i'm going out today to get a bigger one, so both of them fit. i don't like it when my dogs are left alone, so the larger size is for my comfort...



> Yes, a good use of the crate. Continue using it for that purpose.


otay.


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

update.

some grates he walks by and no reaction at all.

some he stops before even i can see them. he's in it for the food, i swear..this is a smart little boy.

if i switch sides and i walk next to the grate and say come on bubba...he trots right by, sits down and waits for his reward.


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## luvMyBRT (Mar 8, 2010)

Could it be something other than the grates....or do you know for sure that it is? It sounds like your making progress....great progress! :smile:


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

saraj2878 said:


> Could it be something other than the grates....or do you know for sure that it is? It sounds like your making progress....great progress! :smile:


it could be his dog died last week and we cried and right after that, he became afraid....

it could be his favourite cooking show has bright ads...

with this dog it could be anything.

i'm pretty sure, this time, it's the water running under the grates and something spooked him, maybe sasquatch....

he can now smell a grate thirty feet away, knowing there is food.

the food distracts him, which i presume is the point...he doesn't get any...i just get in front of him....give him a click click with my tongue and he smells the food and trots right past the grate.

i think a few more days or a few weeks and he'll be fine again .....with that, at least...then he'll find something else to be afraid of...and we'll just start again.

he's not been with us for a year yet....i think it will take a little longer for this guy to feel truly safe.


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## RawFedDogs (Jun 16, 2008)

It's great to see you are making such good progress ... and so fast too!!! Congratulations. :smile:


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

thanks, bill....bubba is a scared boy but brave, too....he so wants to be a real dog


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

i will preface this by saying that my dog is the cagiest, the smartest dog in the world....

people can and do tell me that bubba is 'just a dog', but i disagree. he gets this look in his eyes that tell me he knows exactly what's up.

he now leans 75 degrees....before we get to the end of the driveway LOL

i'm laughing because i think it's funny. he smells those treats coming out of the fridge and his little brain is twirlin' on how to get him some.

i've decided to be smarter than the dog...and by the way, when he is walked and he is on my inside and we are on the sidewalk, he trots...note the word....trots right by them...

because he is a puller, we make like a tree when he's trying to mark the world as is his sworn to g'd duty....and then he has learned to give in first and we continue our walk....

and then you can see the wheels turning. there is no terror in his face....i can't explain it, and maybe i'm projecting, but i swear i see that glint....LOL

so.

what i've done is this.....this dog is so food driven...and that's why i don't care for using food as a means, although initially it is a good way to get him to the point where the fear is not terror...and i do understand food is ever so much better anything else..

now i just drop his leash and i keep on going...and guess who is trotting like a little king right after me?

i believe we have success...or will by next week.

because of him being a pug....and his inability to regulate his own temperatures...


we are taking honey's office, getting rid of the extra bed and we're putting a treadmill in it....for both me and the dogs....the rainy season is coming....and right now, i can't take this g'dforsaken heat.....so, they are not getting walked as much...

treadmills have been a g'd send in the past for my dogs and myself.....and now they shall have both, giving them zen like calmness.

thanks for all of your help


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## Tarielle (Oct 22, 2010)

Magicre, I have seen this done before with a dog that was fearful of storm water drains. Here in Australia we have them built right into the curbs on either side of the street. They are effectively in our nature strips (the grass bit between the footpath and the street).

I don't know how much effort you want to put into having your dog get over this fear because the solution to this involves you getting out into the street and actually covering up the grate with a blanket or a tarpaulin so that your dog can't actually see it. Then you put the food trail down and have him walk right over the top.
Gradually you pull the blanket back little bit by little bit and each time the food trail goes down and he walks over again.

Eventually you should get to the point where the blanket is not over the grate anymore but in front of it. The food trail goes over the blanket and over the grate. Hopefully by then he will know that the grate is not going to hurt him and he will walk right over the top of it.

Obviously this is going to take time and patience. Not sure if you want to be standing in the street that long, lol.


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

Tarielle said:


> Magicre, I have seen this done before with a dog that was fearful of storm water drains. Here in Australia we have them built right into the curbs on either side of the street. They are effectively in our nature strips (the grass bit between the footpath and the street).
> 
> I don't know how much effort you want to put into having your dog get over this fear because the solution to this involves you getting out into the street and actually covering up the grate with a blanket or a tarpaulin so that your dog can't actually see it. Then you put the food trail down and have him walk right over the top.
> Gradually you pull the blanket back little bit by little bit and each time the food trail goes down and he walks over again.
> ...


he's a funny kind of pug, tarielle...and we did just that, during the 'i'll try anything phase....i used my jacket to cover the grate......started the food trail about 20 feet or so....then lengthened it to the door of the house...and he'd trot out, eat the food, get to the jacket and stop dead. 

this dog is so food driven.....he begins to focus on the food....except when i put food on the jacket covered grate...then he circled around the jacket, working his brain to see how he could get to the food without stepping on the grate...because i think he's smart enough to hear the water running underneath.....so i could cover it with mink....if he would not go onto the grate or near the grate with the involvement of food....it is then i decided to choose my battles...

aluminum foil was worth it....these grates which are in the middle of these streets (usually they are at the curb) are simply not worth the battle.

when he balks, i drop the leash.....and continue walking.....we've been doing that now for a few months...he gets no treats...instead....downplaying it seems more helpful than making a big deal out of it...

we are now at 90%.....he walks past the grates and has no issue...every once in a while, he stops dead.....and i just drop his leash and i keep going....

i wish food worked on him.....well, it does, but not in the way it works on most dogs....i realise we all think our dogs are little einsteins, plotting away...but i swear he does just that....his little brain starts to suss out how he can get food...because to him, that's all that matters....LOL

thank you, though....that was very well thought out...i bet it would work on most dogs....


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## Tarielle (Oct 22, 2010)

Oh man, I can't believe you tried that and couldn't outsmart him.

They really are little plotters and schemers aren't they?

Sometimes I wish my dogs could talk but then I imagine how much therapy and couch time would be needed to explain to them that their fears are all imaginary and totally unecessary, lol.

I guess this is one battle as you say, that won't be won in your favour :smile:


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

Tarielle said:


> Oh man, I can't believe you tried that and couldn't outsmart him.
> 
> They really are little plotters and schemers aren't they?
> 
> ...


LOL.....i can chalk this one up to human 0, dog 1 LOL

i wish they could talk.....i just wanna know why they scare him now when they've never scared him before.

man, we take care of one fear and another one pops up to take its place..


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