# Good Kibble



## curtis (Feb 22, 2016)

I've read that some kibble is bad for the health of your dog. We feed our dog, Mary, Purina Dog Chow Complete All Stages Dry Dog Food. Has anyone heard anything negative about that kibble? A typical meal for Mary is carrots, peas, chicken and a handful of kibble.


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## channeledbymodem (Dec 25, 2008)

Despite the criticism of Dog Chow you may hear from people who have never fed it, it is a perfectly adequate food that has been fed successfully to millions of dogs over many many years. The biggest knock on it is that it has a lot of grain and not much meat. That's why the price is lower than some other foods. Meat costs more than corn. However the food is formulated to meet the standards for maintenance of the "average" adult dog. Any food that meets this (AAFCO) standard will not be "bad for the health of your dog" nor will a much more expensive food with "better" ingredients guarantee your dog won't become ill.

Here is a good explanation from a board certified veterinary nutritionist, in answer to the question, "Can I feed the less expensive Purina brands or do I have to spend more to ensure my dog gets the proper nutrition?" (Rebecca Romillard is an independent vet who does not work for any company).

"There are differences between a Lexus and a Toyota. But, both provide comfortable, reliable transportation. Lexus does have some extra bells and whistles, but at additional cost. The majority of car consumers do not feel the need to invest in these added and unnecessary fringes.

Likewise, all Purina's foods provide "comfortable, reliable nutrition". But, different lines have different bells and whistles that may appeal to different pet owners or provide benefits to certain pet populations. For example, Pro Plan and ONE are made with more fresh meat than the less expensive grocery store brands. They tend to be higher in fat and calories, slightly higher in digestibility and more palatable. Some owners like different shapes and colors, while others prefer no artificial colors or preservatives. Purina provides both options. The millions of dollars Purina spend on pet nutrition research support all their brands: grocery as well as the more costly up scale product lines. The difference between the price options is not nutrition in other words

Rather than compromising quality at the lower tiers, Purina provides higher value by providing complete and balanced diets at all price points and retail locations. Different pet owners want different things, but they all want good nutrition for their pets. Purina meets the needs of these different categories of owners, while always meeting the nutritional needs of the cats and dogs."

How is your dog doing on Dog Chow? Does Mary gobble it down or does she walk away and come back later? Are her stools regular and compact? Does she have energy and is she playful? How is her coat condition? If she is doing well there's no reason to change her food. 

I myself feed Pro Plan Sport Performance to a very active two yo terrier. It is about twice as expensive as Dog Chow but since she is small and I keep her lean, Pro Plan is affordable for us. I would not hesitate to try another Purina diet such as Purina One or Beyond. I probably wouldn't feed Alpo or Mighty Dog. As a matter of fact my two cats are now eating Cat Chow Naturals Indoor, which lists chicken by-products as the first ingredient. I could afford to spend more on their dry food, but 1) they really like Cat Chow and 2) they need to watch their weight and Cat Chow Indoor is the lowest in calories of all the Purina dry cat foods.

So I myself would not switch from Dog Chow if Mary is doing well on it. But if you wanted to try something different that was also affordable you could get a bag of Diamond Naturals or Costco's Kirkland. However, they will not be as easy to find as Dog Chow, which might be a consideration.

I'm sure some here will tell you to switch to Taste of the Wild, or Fromm, or Acana, etc. etc. and there's nothing wrong with those foods. But Purina diets are usually underappreciated on the internet.


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## naturalfeddogs (Jan 6, 2011)

channeledbymodem said:


> Despite the criticism of Dog Chow you may hear from people who have never fed it, it is a perfectly adequate food that has been fed successfully to millions of dogs over many many years. The biggest knock on it is that it has a lot of grain and not much meat. That's why the price is lower than some other foods. Meat costs more than corn. However the food is formulated to meet the standards for maintenance of the "average" adult dog. Any food that meets this (AAFCO) standard will not be "bad for the health of your dog" nor will a much more expensive food with "better" ingredients guarantee your dog won't become ill.
> 
> Here is a good explanation from a board certified veterinary nutritionist, in answer to the question, "Can I feed the less expensive Purina brands or do I have to spend more to ensure my dog gets the proper nutrition?" (Rebecca Romillard is an independent vet who does not work for any company).
> 
> ...


A lot of grain, and not much meat is a huge knock. You don't have to feed the highest of high quality foods, but finding one with the most meat as possible should be the first thing to look at.


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## EmmaRoo (Apr 3, 2016)

As stated in the 1st response, Purina HAS fed millions of dogs safely for many, many years. For a long time, Purina was the most reliable food on the market. If you're already feeding Mary chicken & veggies, you can skip the kibble and add a supplement instead. If you get tired of making her chicken & veggies, switch to a food that has a higher/better quality meat content. You want to stay away from food that don't list meat first and foods that list animal by-product items that may not really be meant but are actually other parts of the animal.


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## curtis (Feb 22, 2016)

EmmaRoo said:


> As stated in the 1st response, Purina HAS fed millions of dogs safely for many, many years. For a long time, Purina was the most reliable food on the market. If you're already feeding Mary chicken & veggies, you can skip the kibble and add a supplement instead. If you get tired of making her chicken & veggies, switch to a food that has a higher/better quality meat content. You want to stay away from food that don't list meat first and foods that list animal by-product items that may not really be meant but are actually other parts of the animal.


What is an example of a supplement?


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## RowdyDog (Jul 6, 2016)

Hi Curtis!
I've read several posts by Emma & followed her advice on contacting a company called VeRUS. After trying their samples with my dog (a German Shepherd), I decided to start feeding Verus. I have to order it but it comes auto ship with so is so totally fantastic. I think Verus has supplements, too.


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## EmmaRoo (Apr 3, 2016)

Curtis,
Supplements can come in several forms. And really, it depends on what you're looking for. If your dog isn't experiencing any issues - no itching or hot spots, no joint problems - you can just add a vitamin to make sure your dog is getting everything he needs. You want to be sure your dog is getting plenty of Omega-3, though. Omega-3 will help head off skin/coat problems and helps support the cardiovascular system. As Rowdy mentioned, VeRUS has a supplement called Opticoat II that is made primarily of menhaden fish which are high in Omega-3's and are an ecologically sound resource.


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## Anna O (Jul 29, 2016)

I'm on board with Verus, too! They helped me so much when I was looking to change dog food to something I could trust. Freebie samples are awesome and they'll answer your questions. Like buying a computer and actually customer support.


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## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

If meeting AAFCO standards is all it takes, then shouldn't Alpo, Ole Roy, or Mighty Dog be perfectly fine? They all meet AAFCO standards.


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## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

These are the ingredients in Dog Chow Complete:
Whole Grain Corn, Meat and Bone Meal, Corn Gluten Meal, Animal Fat Preserved with Mixed-Tocopherols, Soybean Meal, Chicken By-Product Meal, Egg and Chicken Flavor, Whole Grain Wheat, Animal Digest, Salt, Calcium Carbonate, Potassium Chloride, L-Lysine Monohydrochloride, Mono and Dicalcium Phosphate, Choline Chloride, Zinc Sulfate, Yellow 6, Vitamin E Supplement, Ferrous Sulfate, Yellow 5, Red 40, Manganese Sulfate, Niacin, Blue 2, Vitamin A Supplement, Copper Sulfate, Calcium Pantothenate, Garlic Oil, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride, Vitamin B-12 Supplement, Thiamine Mononitrate, Vitamin D-3 Supplement, Riboflavin Supplement, Calcium Iodate, Menadione Sodium Bisulfite Complex (Source of Vitamin K Activity), Folic Acid, Biotin, Sodium Selenite.

Two of the first three ingredients are corn. The second ingredient is meat and bone meal, which doesn't name the animal it came from. This is what the Dog Food Project says about meat and bone meal: "The animal parts used can be obtained from any source, so there is no control over quality or contamination. Any kind of animal can be included: "4-D animals" (dead, diseased, disabled, or dying prior to slaughter), goats, pigs, horses, rats, misc. roadkill, animals euthanized at shelters and so on. It can also include pus, cancerous tissue, and decomposed (spoiled) tissue. "

But it meets AAFCO standards, so there's that...


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## MarieLovesChis (Mar 25, 2014)

The ingredients may be ugly, but yes if it's complete and balanced then technically it is good enough.

I raised my dog on Purina Puppy Chow because grocery store foods were all I knew. She was a very beautiful healthy puppy. Once she hit 1 year, I fed her Beneful and Kibbles N Bits. She continued to grow up and stay a beautiful healthy dog.

Then I started to learn about better foods when she was about 3 years old. I fed her things like Blue Buffalo, Nature's Variety Instinct, EVO, etc. over the years. She turned into an obese little thing, looked like a walking coffee table or something. Didn't matter how much I cut her calories back. I had never experienced dandruff with this dog either, and yet she started to get it bad. Don't even get me started on the digestion issues. I learned from all this, even look back and laugh at myself for keeping my poor dog on these "better foods" because I was convinced I would kill her if I didn't. She's now 9 years old and very healthy inside and out. I keep her on much more moderate foods, probably ones that aren't recommended much on here. Not really grocery store brands, but certainly not foods like NVI or EVO.

I don't judge people who use Purina just because I don't use it, if that's what works for their dog. I know a lot of friends with healthy dogs whose bloodwork comes back perfect every time and they're on Purina foods. That's all that matters to me, is that the dog is healthy, well taken care of, and loved.


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## InkedMarie (Sep 9, 2011)

Purina foods are not good enough for *my* dogs. If people are on a budget, there are budget-friendly foods: Victor, Fromm, Dr Tim's (a few of his come in large bags <40 & 44/45lbs> which is unusual for high quality foods)


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## MarieLovesChis (Mar 25, 2014)

Guess it all depends on where you live. Around here, Fromm is really not a budget food, certainly probably not cheap enough for someone who wants Purina priced food. Cheapest I can find Fromm is $20 for a 4lb bag.

Acana definitely isn't what most would consider a budget friendly brand, but in my area $16-$18 gets you a 4.5lb bag of Acana Heritage. More food, less money. Whole Earth Farms is only $10 for a 4lb bag. Taste of the Wild is $9.50 for 5lbs. $9-$15 gets you 5lbs of Annamaet, price range is for grain inclusive and grain free.

These are all local prices as I don't buy from the popular dog food websites, considering I never buy enough for free shipping. If I buy online it'll be from Amazon. Oh just picked up 12lbs of Holistic Select puppy food for $19. I don't think that brand is a budget brand, wouldn't know as I don't regularly use it, but that's a very good price to me!


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## 1605 (May 27, 2009)

I think people need to realize that what is an "expensive" food at the checkout may actually translate to a more economical dog food because you are feeding LESS of a good quality food than something of lesser quality.

My guys get EVO Turkey/Chicken kibble: it's high protein, high fat & high calories because that's what they need to keep weight/muscle -- they are super active GSPs. They each get 22 oz of this food each day. They don't need more because the food is very concentrated nutrition. So I am paying LESS to feed the EVO than another brand.

Just something to think about,


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## Dr Dolittle (Aug 2, 2013)

xellil said:


> If meeting AAFCO standards is all it takes, then shouldn't Alpo, Ole Roy, or Mighty Dog be perfectly fine? They all meet AAFCO standards.


Well, it's kinda complicated! if it meets AFFCO requirements, you need to look at the bag and see if it says FORULATED? That means it's nutrients wee just formulated on a computer and the food was never actually tested. If it says feeding trials then it was actually fed to real dogs! Obviously preferred! Very few companies do actual tests before releasing their food, only 2 I know of. But aafco is a govt agency that prevents deficiencies in food but does not look at imbalances or excessive so in food and that is the actual problem. So a food might mean aafco regiurements but have 2 times the phosphorus level and 4 times the sodium level required, or way high in protein for no other reason than good marketing. So you really don't use aafco requirements if you're someone trying to find the highest quality diets.


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## channeledbymodem (Dec 25, 2008)

Dr Dolittle said:


> So a food might mean aafco regiurements but have 2 times the phosphorus level and 4 times the sodium level required, or way high in protein for no other reason than good marketing. So you really don't use aafco requirements if you're someone trying to find the highest quality diets.


Good point, Doc. In fact, Purina diets at all price points are known for their balanced mineral profile, which is important if you're feeding a puppy or a senior dog. That's probably one of the things that keeps Purina's 400 food scientists and nutritionists busy. On the other hand, some very high protein diets that are grain free and claim to have the highest percentage of meat, notably Evo, have far too much calcium and phosphorus for some dogs. And they are invariably not subjected to actual food trials, which lowly Dog Chow has undergone for decades.


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## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

channeledbymodem said:


> Good point, Doc. In fact, Purina diets at all price points are known for their balanced mineral profile, which is important if you're feeding a puppy or a senior dog. That's probably one of the things that keeps Purina's 400 food scientists and nutritionists busy. On the other hand, some very high protein diets that are grain free and claim to have the highest percentage of meat, notably Evo, have far too much calcium and phosphorus for some dogs. And they are invariably not subjected to actual food trials, which lowly Dog Chow has undergone for decades.


This is what you said: "Any food that meets this (AAFCO) standard will not be "bad for the health of your dog" nor will a much more expensive food with "better" ingredients guarantee your dog won't become ill." And then you went on to say you wouldn't feed a couple of foods, which meet AAFCO standards. 

It seems you're saying two different things. If no dog food that meets AAFCO standards is bad for the health of your dog, then Beneful should be equal in quality to any other dog food.


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## channeledbymodem (Dec 25, 2008)

xellil said:


> It seems you're saying two different things. If no dog food that meets AAFCO standards is bad for the health of your dog, then Beneful should be equal in quality to any other dog food.


As I've tried to say repeatedly, "quality" is a purely subjective term, although some people claim, erroneously to my way of thinking, that they can determine "quality" solely from the "ingredients" on a label. Nutritional adequacy on the other hand (or "healthiness") is universally considered to be met by those foods which meet the standards of the AAFCO statement found on *every* bag of dog or cat food sold in the USA. The statement is exactly the same on Beneful as it is on Orijen; the only variations are designations for growth, adult maintenance or all life stages as well as confirming the standard was met either by actual standardized food trials or by theoretical compliance with a formula. There are no variations of the AAFCO statement that speak to the concept of "quality."

So to the extent that they meet the AAFCO standard for adult maintenance, Beneful and Ol Roy are as nutritionally "adequate" as Ziwi Peak. Will they be best for *all* dogs? Of course not; no food is. I would probably not feed Beneful to a sled dog or a show dog that travels cross country forty weeks a year. Why? Because based on the guaranteed analysis, Beneful would probably not provide the levels of protein or fat a hard working dog or a dog under stress would need to maintain its energy and the healthiest coat. I personally might consider the opinions of people who had fed many such dogs over a long period of time. If I had a sled dog I might choose Dr. Tim's or Annamaet, foods which have been developed for and trialed on dogs in competition. If I had a show dog I might take into consideration the fact that for years now over 90% of the highest scoring AKC champions eat Pro Plan for at least part of their diet (and no, people who have invested thousands of dollars campaigning a champion are not going to feed a food simply because they get it free).

The bottom line is that for an "average" household pet, I would not be "afraid" to feed Beneful although I would prefer to feed Pro Plan. I personally trust that Purina's nutritional standards and quality control (they have had very few recalls) apply to all of their products. I wouldn't necessarily have that confidence in Ol' Roy. 

Once I've determined that a given food will "do no harm," my buying criteria are as subjective as anyone else's and just as subject to marketing and anecdotal evidence. On that basis, I've decided to leave the brands I've fed in the past such as Orijen, Merrick, Wysong, Holistic Select, Wellness, Canidae, Evo etc. behind and feed Pro Plan Sport Performance exclusively. But I don't pretend to know that PPSP is a higher "quality" food than the others, based on all of them meeting AAFCO standards, and I'm not swayed by the claims of people who feed those foods that they are "higher quality" because they have "better" ingredients.

I can take on the "Beneful is like McDonald's" and "Some people smoke and live to be 90" canards but this post is already long. And I won't dignify the conspiracy theory that Puriina products are "killing" our pets with a response.


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