# Brand Bias



## Shamrockmommy

I have noticed this lately, especially on forums and dog food advisor.com...

Food brand bias. What I mean is, for example the commonly quoted "DIAMOND IS BAD!" Yet in the same thread, people will go on about how awesome TOTW is, (which is made by Diamond!) They will slam something like 4Health, and again, fawn over TOTW. 

Also, Orijen and Acana practically have angel wings on the bags LOL. Ok, a little sarcasm overload, but does anyone else notice the bias? 

I've had to "lower" my standards of the commonly spewed "high protein is best" etc. because 2 of my 4 dogs definitely cannot handle those foo-foo everything but the kitchen sink foods. 

Just a mini rant on an observation!


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## LProf

Very good observation Shamrockmommy. I have noticed the same thing, and have stopped paying any attention to these comments, particularly on the Dog Food Advisor.

Like you, I am using a low protein food because my Pug can not tolerate the touted high protein foods.


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## NutroGeoff

I have seen a lot of the time a lot of bias towards or against certain foods (I know, it's a little ironic coming from a food rep). Really though, my focus is to find a food with will work best for a dog or cat. If I don't have something that will work for a specific dog, I will often either direct a customer to someone who can help or help them find something else myself. In my opinion, any dog food could work great for a dog. You just have to find the one that works best.


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## 1605

Shamrockmommy said:


> I have noticed this lately, especially on forums and dog food advisor.com...
> 
> Food brand bias. What I mean is, for example the commonly quoted "DIAMOND IS BAD!" Yet in the same thread, people will go on about how awesome TOTW is, (which is made by Diamond!) They will slam something like 4Health, and again, fawn over TOTW.
> 
> Also, Orijen and Acana practically have angel wings on the bags LOL. Ok, a little sarcasm overload, but does anyone else notice the bias?
> 
> I've had to "lower" my standards of the commonly spewed "high protein is best" etc. because 2 of my 4 dogs definitely cannot handle those foo-foo everything but the kitchen sink foods.
> 
> Just a mini rant on an observation!


I don't know if it is a "brand bias" as much as some people are easily swayed by marketing. Like the whole "human grade" debate, which is more of a "I wouldn't eat THAT, so why would I feed my dogs THAT?" There are many things that one culture deems offal while another deems a delicacy. So why bring the whole "human grade" issue into the discussion?

As to the protein debate, I only know that my high-energy hunting dogs do better on a high protein diet. They can't maintain muscle mass, stamina or weight on low calorie/protein feed.

FWIW,


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## kevin bradley

Got into a heated conversation(bordering on argument) with a guy at Tractor Supply the other day. I told him that 4Health was a Diamond product and mentioned that it didn't sit well with some people due to the extensive recall history(note--I didn't take the "Diamond" sucks position at all and I made that clear. My position was based more on facts from my standpoint. I'm actually not a Diamond hater as I think their food does offer people an option at a really low price---its something you have to figure out on your own depending on how sensitive you are to their history). 

He snapped at me, telling me that Diamond had "nothing to do with 4Health." He then went into a half ass attempt at an analogy where he compared parts made at one of our big local Auto Suppliers(Denso Mfg) and how just because a part for a GM car is made there, you don't say a GM car is "made by Denso." HUH?... the analogy made no sense and I should have told him, well, if the ENTIRE car WAS made there, your analogy would make some small amount of sense. 4Health is ENTIRELY made by diamond. His analogy would hold water if, say... Diamond only supplied the Chicken Fat for the food and was made at the "4Health plant". It later evolved into "WELL, regardless, the 4Health brand has never been involved in any of the recalls Diamond has had." I wasn't sure of this but went online and discovered that sure enough, they were part of the recalls in recent years. He then snapped at me saying he trains service Dogs(not sure how that was relevent?.... I guess I could have told him I'm on a first name basis with the Vet who made the food that feeds Iditarod Champions but I didn't go there).

Its a new pet peeve of mine in life I guess---people making comments about things they don't know about. Is it THAT hard to just say "I don't know but I can check on it for you?" Whats the old saying? You can have your own opinion but not your own facts?

Sorry for the rant. Thought it was relevent to the topic. Again, this is not a jab at people feeding Diamond.


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## InkedMarie

Kevin, just being nosey but was the guy an employee or shopper?


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## kevin bradley

IM,

Oh, he was a worker, sorry. I guess thats what kind of irked me the most. He's trying to hand out advice.

The hard part is that this topic(dog food) is filled with really challenging conversations. IE--corn, grain free, raw, etc... and whether they have merits or not. I get that and I do my best to REALLY steer clear of those conversations because in my experience, they typically end badly and someone gets pissed off.
And there just isn't enough conclusive proof for anyone to win in those discussions. So when we have FACTUAL stuff being misconstrued, it just bugs me I guess. 

Hope all is well. I haven't been out here much lately. Hope everyone is well.


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## Jacksons Mom

I noticed definite trends on the internet. I got Jackson in 2008 and immediately joined online forums. Around that time, I recall Innova and EVO being pretty trendy to feed, also Wellness Core, Taste of the Wild and NV Instinct. I even fed the Cesar Millan Dog Whisperer food briefly when Jax was a pup, LOL... because "hey, Cesar wouldn't make a bad food, right?!?!" *smacks head*

Shortly thereafter, I remember Orijen and Acana really blowing up too a lot, as well as all the premade raw foods.

Nowadays, I do notice a lot of forums tend to be a lot more open minded and while we still obviously care what is going into our pets mouths, people don't seem to get quite as shamed for feeding a "below 3 star food" anymore.


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## Shamrockmommy

Jacksons Mom said:


> I noticed definite trends on the internet. <SNIP>
> Nowadays, I do notice a lot of forums tend to be a lot more open minded and while we still obviously care what is going into our pets mouths, people don't seem to get quite as shamed for feeding a "below 3 star food" anymore.


I noticed the same trends you did. When I got my first dog it was Bil-Jac was the cool thing (dry or frozen) and Nutro as well. That was, oh, 1996?

Anyway, I've watched the forums become much "gentler" now with the brands that people considered to be low quality. I think people are finding out that the fancy foo-foo foods aren't working as awesome for their dogs. Plus, the companies tend to copy-cat each other, and the formulations are so similar that if you have a dog with an intolerance or allergy it's difficult to find something that works.

I'm 3 days away from commencing my "farm-dog" experiment. I found 4Health Grain free (made by Ainsworth, I'm still to leary of Diamond) that meets what I want to see on paper (ingredients/GA). I just want to see what happens with the dogs. I got 1 four pound bag of each of the grain free formulas, so they won't last a long time if I don't like the results or I won't feel bad donating it in case I REALLY don't like it straight away. I even got a coupon for Purina food and bought a 3.5 pound bag of their purina one beyond. ( I have a friend who shows/breeds standard poodles who are gorgeous and healthy and she feeds Purina One lamb/rice plus a bit of cooked meat. She's tried all sorts of foods but always comes back to this.)

They are also getting a huge canned variety with their food plus supplements depending on the dog. Sometimes I crock pot a topper for them as well. 

I came to this conclusion after wondering what the gun-dog people feed. Those dogs are worked! Those dogs benefit most from the nutrition, or suffer the most from the lack of it. People who work dogs will use what works. My sofa surfers honestly don't put a lot of strain on the nutritional needs LOL. I see a lot of Diamond, Purina Pro Plan, Black Gold, Eukanuba and Dr. Tims being used over on the gun dog forums. 

Here are the things I'll be looking for results: Nice, clean, pink skin. NO yeasty ears or skin or feet. In Darby: (bichon) no tear stains or minimal (hers tend to get better/worse depending on the food/season). For Echo and Jack: Firm poop. Consistently. Fromm has not been able to produce this for me, even with me measuring exact amounts (of food by the way LOL). But it gives her nice coat. But I digress. I also want nice coat. I don't want any dog smell or anal glad issues (back to that firm stool thing!).

I'll let everyone know how it goes. 

Oh, Kevin, you could've flipped a bag of the grain-inclusive 4Health over and shown him the "Made by DPF" disclaimer on the bag LOL. The grain free 4Health is made by Ainsworth. 

People are passionate about what they feed their dogs, that's for sure! 

Aaand I've written a novel!


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## bett

i don't know if i would call it brand bias as much as recall bias. and as a dog owner , who nearly lost rex, during that time i have that bias. 
anyone, (almost) (but not all have) can have a recall. however, my first phone call, when they asked for the numbers on the bag, reassured me that it wasn't that food. then, within days, and all 3 of mine getting sick, fyi, the recall spread, and spread and spread. all the while diamond vets badgering me because my dogs didnt get salmonella, which i never said they got. i said they got sick from eating toxic food. and i had files on the calls, responses, who spoke with, what they said, and all my vet and internets bills and statements. 

long story short. rex was diagnosed in liver failure, not able to do the needle guided biopsy for fear of him bleeding out.

i went on ch 2 news and told my story after being jerked from long island ny, to mississippi, and diamond paid nearly 4 grand in vet bills.

and unbelievable as it may be, home cooking, supplements and chinese herbs, and rex lived 20 more months succumbing to something unrelated.

so yeah, i would never buy anything made by diamond or manufactured in their plants. seems at the end, 2 of their 3 plants were closed. wanna know why? because the fda came in and said "where's the sink, near the raw meat?"

two plants, not one, several foods, not one. liar liar, pants on fair.


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## kevin bradley

Can't blame you there, Bett. My little Beagle got deathly sick after eating Canidae. Now, I can't be sure what it was... but I changed my guys over to Canidae and 2 days later, she was hooked up to an IV overnight at my Vets office. She vomitted probably 10x over the course of 8 hours and her body was limp and listless. To this day, I have no clue what it was in the food that bothered her..... and thats where the discussion gets difficult. Was it something bad w/ the food or was it just some ingredient that didn't agree with her? Hard for me to prove. 

With 3 Dogs getting sick, I'd have no doubt. The food was bad. Real bad. I'm sure those Vets had daily meetings with a legal team on how to respond.


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## Shamrockmommy

I don't blame bett for feeling the way you do, I also feel the same and I have never fed "Diamond" but I tried a bag of TOTW once and it didn't work for my dogs. 
I don't even want to tempt fate with a food that knowingly harmed and killed pets. 

If I had the energy and time I could cook for everyone, but I don't


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## InkedMarie

I get testy when people feed truly crap food (Ol Roy, gravy train etc) and claim that's all they can afford. No, tell me your price point & I'm sure I can find a better food for similar cost. I also get testy when people claim they can't afford much yet they have an iPhone or the like and find money for alcohol and sometimes drugs. Just be honest, you *have* the money! you don't want to spend it on dog food. Heaven forbid you don't get sloshed & post it on fb with your phone.

Yeah, people p*ss me off.


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## Sapphire-Light

So true! I also hate diamond now, before the diamond recall I fed kirkland puppy for a short time because many people recommend it at the time, however Pompadour didn't liked it too mush so I went into propac

When the recall happened I got really mad, even if I wasn't feeding it at the time that's because they were using the ingredient list and grain free as a excuse to fool people

Since I'm not in the us, they are fewer options, sometimes earthborn can be found (that's the only 4 plus star food of DFA I can find here) but most of the flavors have a kibble that's too big for my dog's teeth also it was hard to keep weight on Pompadour 

The propac seems to work well, however Pompadour gets bored if I fed him the same kibble over and over so I switch wen he finish a bag, so lately I have tried eukanuba yorkshire and SD small breed puppy

Of all the kibble brands I have tried, the SD appears to work best for Pompadour , he digest it mush better and keeps better his weight than the others (including the EB) , he gets the kibble mixed wit cooked meat and veggies


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## bett

kevin bradley said:


> Can't blame you there, Bett. My little Beagle got deathly sick after eating Canidae. Now, I can't be sure what it was... but I changed my guys over to Canidae and 2 days later, she was hooked up to an IV overnight at my Vets office. She vomitted probably 10x over the course of 8 hours and her body was limp and listless. To this day, I have no clue what it was in the food that bothered her..... and thats where the discussion gets difficult. Was it something bad w/ the food or was it just some ingredient that didn't agree with her? Hard for me to prove.
> 
> With 3 Dogs getting sick, I'd have no doubt. The food was bad. Real bad. I'm sure those Vets had daily meetings with a legal team on how to respond.


RECALL: Canidae recalls dog food made at Diamond's troubled plant in Gaston, SC | Poisoned Pets

but i believe they now have their own plant.


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## leaveittoweaver

bett said:


> RECALL: Canidae recalls dog food made at Diamond's troubled plant in Gaston, SC | Poisoned Pets
> 
> but i believe they now have their own plant.


Yes, Canidae does have their own plant now.

Shamrockmommy, you are so right. Back in the day Eagle Pack was the thing. And I remember Solid Gold being a thing for awhile too. Now it's Orijen and Acana that seem to be the end all be all.

I'm glad to see people have become less judgmental over time of what other people feed their dogs...if it works for your dog, then great! I do also get annoyed like someone else said, with people who complain about price. I understand not wanting to go crazy and spend $80 a bag on Orijen, but there are decent foods out there that are of a decent price(Hi-Tek, Fromm Classic, Nutrisource all come to mind). But there are options that are a little better for about the same price.

I also think the grain free band wagon is overrated. My dog is on grain free but I was not looking to put her on grain free, it's just what worked for her. And it only worked for her because it had a very high fiber content which is what I needed. Grain free does not work for every dog though. Especially not some of the outrageously high protein foods. I know if I gave my dog Orijen we'd have loose stool city going on here.


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## Losech

My go-to food is Diamond Naturals Extreme Athlete. It's available everywhere, is cheap, and my dogs to great on it. I like Taste of the Wild, so do the dogs. I also feed Merrick (grain inclusive) and EVO. I'd feed Earthborn Holistic (Primitive Naturals) but I can't get it locally and I'm odd about ordering stuff online. There's a few brands I want to try but haven't because I can't get them locally. 
I've fed Wellness CORE, hated it. Fromm is okay but not a favorite of mine. Orijen sucks, I like Natire's Variety Instinct but it's very expensive for so little food. Innova is meh. Nutrisource (grain-free) was decent. I used to like Canidae PURE but not anymore.
What REALLY bugs me is when the formula changes, price goes up, and bag size goes down (Canidae PURE just did that). I am not fond of peas or lentils. I don't feed foods with those as the main veggie thing, and unfortunately a lot of foods I've fed or wanted to now have those in them. I hate how that is "the thing" right now, I wish they would quit changing formulas to the next fad item and just leave them like they were. Potatoes are fine, my problem dog does great on potato-inclusive food. Why get rid of them in favor of peas? I have no idea.
My dogs do best on at least 30% protein, better on stuff closer to 35-38% protein and around 20% fat. So that right there rules out a lot of foods that other people's dogs do fine on. I don't care for a lot of grain-free foods out there, I actually look for grain-inclusive foods with higher protein contents since they are usually a bit cheaper and better formulated. 
I'll recommend stuff I don't feed 'cause everybody's dogs are different and not all of them need higher octane food like mine.


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## Shamrockmommy

Losech said:


> What REALLY bugs me is when the formula changes, price goes up, and bag size goes down (Canidae PURE just did that). I am not fond of peas or lentils. I don't feed foods with those as the main veggie thing, and unfortunately a lot of foods I've fed or wanted to now have those in them. I hate how that is "the thing" right now, I wish they would quit changing formulas to the next fad item and just leave them like they were. Potatoes are fine, my problem dog does great on potato-inclusive food. Why get rid of them in favor of peas? I have no idea.



That is what I'm calling the trendy foo-foo ingredients. One company starts out with peas or flax or whatever the ingredient of the day happens to be. Consumers think it's great and start buying it. So, too, must the other companies so they can make a few bucks too!

Foo-foo. 

Peas for my guys = a lot of poop to scoop! 

It's very frustrating. Wish dry foods would be more simple.


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## InkedMarie

I also get testy when people won't order online. I used to be like that too, until I discovered auto ship. I've also heard "I don't have the money". You have a dog. You have funds to pay the bill somewhere, whether cash, credit card or debit. If you have debit, deposit the money & order food. 

I've heard "I live paycheck to paycheck". Most of us do. I've explained how the envelope system works for me: I have a dozen envelopes that we put money into on payday. So,when I pay for dog food with my credit card, by the time the bill comes in, I'll have the money. Much easier to put however much you need per week or every other week in an envelope than to have to come up with the whole amount at one time. 

Can you tell this p*sses me off! still?! Lol


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## Losech

InkedMarie said:


> I also get testy when people won't order online.


I don't because I don't like having stuff shipped to my landlady's address and go to her house. (I don't have my own address, I'm in a trailer on her property.) She doesn't have a problem with it but I just don't like to do it. So if somebody can't ship to my PO box, or charges an arm and a leg to do so, I don't use that company. If that wasn't the case then I'd probably order all my dog food online.
I might do one big order and just have six months of dog food sitting around, but I'm still not fond of the idea.


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## Georgiapeach

From what I have read, 4 Health Grain Free is not a Diamond product (packaged by Ainsworth I think, as is Back to Basics), but the grain inclusive IS a Diamond product. I personally have had great success with TOTW Pacific Stream (Diamond product) with boxers I had in the past who couldn't tolerate peas, high protein or fat (it's 25/15). With one boxer, it was literally, the only kibble he could tolerate. There's a lot worse out there, trust me.


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## InkedMarie

Losech said:


> I don't because I don't like having stuff shipped to my landlady's address and go to her house. (I don't have my own address, I'm in a trailer on her property.) She doesn't have a problem with it but I just don't like to do it. So if somebody can't ship to my PO box, or charges an arm and a leg to do so, I don't use that company. If that wasn't the case then I'd probably order all my dog food online.
> I might do one big order and just have six months of dog food sitting around, but I'm still not fond of the idea.


To me, that's a valid reason although I don't understand why you can't have it dropped on your steps. It's your address. If you called 911, they'd come to your door right? I use Chewy, Petflow and wag most. No shipping, it's a nominal amount to spend for free shipping. Lots of people don't realize all the other non food pet items they carry, great prices too.


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## Celt

I don't like to order online, but may end up having to if the dog boutique here goes under, because technology and I don't get along too well. Quite a few people have told me that "yes, technology is out to get me" " or "there must be something about you that affects the (enter tech of choice)". Friday, a tech person told me it might be my aura is too bright" 
An example: I woke up late today because my phone (also my alarm) didn't change forward an hour, my husband had to "fiddle" with it. It makes me nervous to "depend" on getting food online. Though maybe since Farmina's sample came end with everyone elses, it would be "normal" (knock on wood).


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## kevin bradley

Georgiapeach said:


> From what I have read, 4 Health Grain Free is not a Diamond product (packaged by Ainsworth I think, as is Back to Basics), but the grain inclusive IS a Diamond product. I personally have had great success with TOTW Pacific Stream (Diamond product) with boxers I had in the past who couldn't tolerate peas, high protein or fat (it's 25/15). With one boxer, it was literally, the only kibble he could tolerate. There's a lot worse out there, trust me.



Georgia,

I want to be clear... I didn't intend to bash Diamond. I know a bunch of people feed it and their prices are really competetive. My issue with the guy at TSC was simply due to factual inaccuracies. Its unfair for Diamond consumers to not understand what foods they make(Naturals, 4Health grain incl, TOTW, Pr Edge, Kirkland, Nat Balance-I think, etc....) and the fact that they have had a number of recalls over the years. Everyone is in a different place financially or what their philosophies are on food and to be fair, Diamond makes a TON of food so statistically they are more apt to be involved with some recalls. But you DO deserve to know and make your decision however you see fit.

And by the same tolken, I think it helps to know the origins of who makes what. If you WANT to feed Diamond and can't find a particular food(Kirkland comes to mind), know that Naturals is about the same food for about the same price. Same w/ TOTW and the Kirkland Grain free line(I think its Natures Domain or something)--they are about the same food from what I can tell. 

You will never find anyone more skeptical than me on foods. I grew up with 4 Dogs who were fed Grocery store kibble and Pedigree. All lived to 15+ including a Rottweiler and one stray who was at least 18 when she passed. On the flipside, I just lost Harry in 2013 who lived on Acana, Orijen, TOTW and Wellness. He was 10-12 or so and riddled with Cancer. I have real serious confusion over how much the "elite" foods really do for our Dogs and whether or not the ingredient lists are more marketed to US(humans) than anything else. But I'm not really coming from an objective place right now.

Note-he didn't mention anything about Ainsworth so I really don't think this was a case of him thinking Ainsworth was the mfr.


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## Shamrockmommy

kevin bradley said:


> You will never find anyone more skeptical than me on foods. I grew up with 4 Dogs who were fed Grocery store kibble and Pedigree. All lived to 15+ including a Rottweiler and one stray who was at least 18 when she passed. On the flipside, I just lost Harry in 2013 who lived on Acana, Orijen, TOTW and Wellness. He was 10-12 or so and riddled with Cancer. I have real serious confusion over how much the "elite" foods really do for our Dogs and whether or not the ingredient lists are more marketed to US(humans) than anything else. But I'm not really coming from an objective place right now.
> 
> .


It seems like there have been about 20 years of this "holistic" trend in dog foods. People are starting to see that their dogs are STILL getting cancers, living shorter on the super expensive foods. My first dog ate raw for 80% of his life and when he wasn't on raw he was on the top holistic kibble brands. He died from heart cancer and also has splenic cancer. He was barely 14. My bichon, Lexi ate about the same and died of heart failure at age 13.

My FIL's dog at the same time/same age as my first dog ate milk bones and dollar store food. (NOT that I recommend that) but she died at age 15 only because she broke her leg at the hip and surgery would've been extensive for her age. 

I dunno. I know that's completely anecdotal but I would LOVE to have one of my dogs make it to 16 or more and still be in good health.

My very first foster dog that I kept in touch with for years just passed away last week. He was 20 and ate science diet and mighty dog! SO, I wonder if maybe the foods with by-products might be ever so slightly more nutritious than the ones made with only muscle meat. 

Very thought provoking.


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## Celt

Personally, I don't think "quality" of a food has as much of an effect that some believe. It does have some importance, but more for amount fed and digestiblity. It's how the dogs do on the food and genetics that affects health and longevity. The average dog can do just fine, imo, on regular "grocery store" foods as on "high quality" ones. Some dogs will do better with higher protein/fat, others with higher "carbohydrate heavy" foods. I've fed some piss poor diets a few times and the dogs who ate them lived to ripe old ages. The youngest dog to pass away, to date, was a basset mix that die from a necrotic abyss at 14 who was fed Ol' Roy a great portion of her life. On the other hand, we had a golden (a breed known for cancers) who lived to be 18 with a similar diet and we had to put him to sleep due to arthritis (no other health issues). And Ol' Roy wasn't the worst diet, I've fed. There was a time where the dogs ate beans and rice made with bone stock (and those bones were not in any way "meaty"). I wouldn't reccommend feeding a "low" quality food (especially those were "foreign objects" are found in them "often") but I really think you need to determine how well is YOUR dog is doing on a food and adjust accordingly, then pray the genetics will be on your side.


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## Losech

InkedMarie said:


> To me, that's a valid reason although I don't understand why you can't have it dropped on your steps. It's your address. If you called 911, they'd come to your door right? I use Chewy, Petflow and wag most. No shipping, it's a nominal amount to spend for free shipping. Lots of people don't realize all the other non food pet items they carry, great prices too.


I live down a logging road, not the actual driveway, and if you don't know the logging road is there you'll miss it, same with the RV. You need to know it's there or you'll go right past it. You need a 4x4 to go down it the logging road, and telling a delivery truck to go get their vehicle stuck in the mud is not exactly a polite thing to do. Cops would miss it also unless given directions to "turn left at the funky tree onto the invisible logging road, go past the broken down RV, and to the one covered with a tarp that looks like a one-person trailer park."
I just don't like bothering people, I don't even like going up to my landlady's water spigot to turn it on to fill my water tank. I'm just odd like that.

I'll probably make up a big order soon so I only need to bug her about it once. I really like Chewy's prices, and they carry several foods I like that I can't get locally or are cheaper. "Local" being a 30 minute drive to town, so it really does save me a lot of money to have it delivered.


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## kevin bradley

Shamrockmommy said:


> It seems like there have been about 20 years of this "holistic" trend in dog foods. People are starting to see that their dogs are STILL getting cancers, living shorter on the super expensive foods. My first dog ate raw for 80% of his life and when he wasn't on raw he was on the top holistic kibble brands. He died from heart cancer and also has splenic cancer. He was barely 14. My bichon, Lexi ate about the same and died of heart failure at age 13.
> 
> My FIL's dog at the same time/same age as my first dog ate milk bones and dollar store food. (NOT that I recommend that) but she died at age 15 only because she broke her leg at the hip and surgery would've been extensive for her age.
> 
> I dunno. I know that's completely anecdotal but I would LOVE to have one of my dogs make it to 16 or more and still be in good health.
> 
> My very first foster dog that I kept in touch with for years just passed away last week. He was 20 and ate science diet and mighty dog! SO, I wonder if maybe the foods with by-products might be ever so slightly more nutritious than the ones made with only muscle meat.
> 
> Very thought provoking.



Shamrock, Oh, yeah. Man, I thought.... here's the love of my life(Harry). I am going to ensure he lives to at least 15 and fill him w/ Orijen, Acana, Wellness....all the best. Stupid?... Maybe, I don't know. I didn't think it was stupid at the time. But the fresh caught Walleye, blueberries, non GMO and Organic this and that.... it got me. So I stuffed him full of Orijen and Acana. Acana was probably the predominate food in Harry's diet. 

But in the end, Cancer didn't give a damn. 

Probably not many are as naive as I was. It was a wake up call on the sober-ness(if thats a word) of life. We want so badly to control the health of our Pets. To just DO something to help them. Believe me, I get it. 

I'll say it again.... and I have to be careful here because the last thing I want to do is insult someone feeding Champion foods either. But I also don't want people who can't feed those foods to feel bad either. Because in the end, it really might not matter.


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## doggiedad

read through the bias (naming brands) and do your research.


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## doggiedad

my last Shepherd couldn't tolerate preminum food. after all kinds of testing the Vet said try some cheap food.
i don't remember what preminum brand we were feeding but i do remember going to Alpo. the itching stopped,
loose stowels stopped, losing hair stopped. i gave him a lot of fresh meat, fish and fowl as a supplement.



Georgiapeach said:


> From what I have read, 4 Health Grain Free is not a Diamond product (packaged by Ainsworth I think, as is Back to Basics), but the grain inclusive IS a Diamond product. I personally have had great success with TOTW Pacific Stream (Diamond product) with boxers I had in the past who couldn't tolerate peas, high protein or fat (it's 25/15). With one boxer, it was literally, the only kibble he could tolerate. There's a lot worse out there, trust me.


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## leaveittoweaver

I think as a whole, people in the "dog community" should focus more on the quality of the companies producing the food then the food itself. I do think ingredients are important. I think staying away from corn, wheat, and soy makes sense. But I think we put too much emphasis on "what is the BEST brand of dog food". There simply is no such thing and their never will be. And sometimes these crazy high protein rich foods don't work well for a lot of dogs. 

A lot of us here have said it time and again, it's about feeding the healthiest thing you can afford that your dog does well on.


----------



## Celt

It really is fairly simple, the best food is the one your dog does best on. Be it grain free or grain "heavy", high protein or low, expensive or cheap, "supplemented" or plain. Your dog is the best indicator of what is the best food. Some find excellence in raw, others in kibble and so forth. Depending on your dog's "health" and "make up", one type of food that works "wonders" for some (even if the "majority") won't be even slightly good for your pet. Dogs are remarkably adaptable and human "interference" has "created" issues that would "never" occur (or at least survive) that can effect our pets digestion.


----------



## kevin bradley

Celt said:


> It really is fairly simple, the best food is the one your dog does best on. Be it grain free or grain "heavy", high protein or low, expensive or cheap, "supplemented" or plain. Your dog is the best indicator of what is the best food. Some find excellence in raw, others in kibble and so forth. Depending on your dog's "health" and "make up", one type of food that works "wonders" for some (even if the "majority") won't be even slightly good for your pet. Dogs are remarkably adaptable and human "interference" has "created" issues that would "never" occur (or at least survive) that can effect our pets digestion.



I agree with this.

I feel like a fool now... when I first stumbled onto feeding "better" foods, I would spout off to people about how their foods weren't very good, etc.... I recall telling one friend how Eukanuba sucked and how they needed to find a better food. Even though their Dog was doing fine on Eukanuba.

What a jackass I was.


----------



## Celt

I have no problem recommending foods to people (usually when they "ask") and will make comments about why I don't like certain foods. Most of the times, I don't come right out and say their food isn't good. But I have no problem mentioning "sugar" content or lack of animal protein, sometimes comparing a food to candy bars or fast food. And giving recommendations is one way for people to learn of other "brands" out there. While a dog maybe doing good on one food, they may do even better on another, a person can't know without trying and if they don't know about the "new" food well they can't try it out. Hades, I've tried most of the brands (even some rather "horrid" quality ones) out there due to recommendations. Some have been hits, others fails but each one makes for a better knowledge of my dogs' "needs" and preferences. I know a meal of Moist and Meaty (the equivalent of a twinkie wrapped in bacon, battered and deep fried) once in awhile makes my pups happy and doesn't cause them any problems. Now I wouldn't recommend this food for daily or even weekly feeding (more like monthly) but when our old man started dropping weight and not being interested in food, this food worked. I figure eating a bit of "junk food" now and then isn't the end of the world or all that big a deal.


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## Shamrockmommy

I was a HUGE dog food snob! LOL. Pukeanuba, Science Death, I had names for all the foods that were completely derogatory. Now I've not nearly come "full circle" and tried those two foods, I think it's a mental hangup, but some of the nicest bichons I knew (show dogs) were fed Eukanuba dry/canned exclusively. They all had better coat and body condition than mine (of the same pedigrees/lines) and never did any of them have diarrhea or vomiting like mine did/do on the fancy foods like Orijen, etc. 

I've criticized many people over their food choices right in the grocery store. Maybe it did help the dogs who were stuck in poor health on Ol'Roy or Kibbles N Bits, but maybe they were just fine and that was about all a person could afford. I don't know but I've completely changed my tune over the last 18 years as to what I find acceptable to feed a dog (me or anyone else). 

Dogs were our garbage disposals. They adapt well to most anything. Which is the beauty of dogs, I guess.


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## LProf

So, where are we now? I am hopelessly confused and getting depressed about what to feed my guys.

Do I abandon my "Premium" food and start feeding the so called "bad" foods? 

Like all of us, I care very much about my dogs, and it would be devastating to think that I am shortening their lives because I have fallen for marketing hype. 

Yes, they seem to me to be doing OK on the "Premium" food they are getting, but who really knows?


----------



## leaveittoweaver

LProf said:


> So, where are we now? I am hopelessly confused and getting depressed about what to feed my guys.
> 
> Do I abandon my "Premium" food and start feeding the so called "bad" foods?
> 
> Like all of us, I care very much about my dogs, and it would be devastating to think that I am shortening their lives because I have fallen for marketing hype.
> 
> Yes, they seem to me to be doing OK on the "Premium" food they are getting, but who really knows?


Do their coats look good? Do their stools look good? The dog answers that question for you. If your dog looks good, you can afford their food, then you are doing the right thing. I said earlier in this thread, it really comes down to if the food works for your dog and they look great on it, then great!


----------



## Celt

Look to your dog. Pick up whatever food you want to feed. Feed it. Then take note on your dog's condition. Did they lose condition (get soft, pudgy, looking without gaining weight) or improve (look more firmer, thinner without losing weight) have bigger/smaller or more/less poops, did their coat get worse/better, do you have to feed more/less, how's their energy level, etc. The best food for your dog is the one that brings out the best in them. A majority of people find that "premium" foods give them the best results, Some have a few problems but find success in "good" ones, and a few discover that only the "bad" foods will work for their dogs. 
It is unlikely for you to shorten a dog's life by what you feed unless you're feeding a food that your dog doesn't do well on. If your dog lacks energy, has a poor coat and body condition, bad poops (with no improvements over a couple of weeks, some dogs have "delicate" systems) and you continue to feed that food. Then, yes, you will be shortening their life. But if they're doing good, go for it. If you think that a different food will have a better result, try it. Most ("healthy") dogs are not delicate, hot house flowers, if they were they wouldn't be around now. Relax, your dog will survive most of the "screw ups" (everyone has them) that can occur without any long term effects.


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## Shamrockmommy

weaver and celt have the right answer LProf.

I am taking a step down with a couple of my dogs because the fancy Fromm 4 star is not working as well as I'd like to see for them. It's too fancy.... there are so many ingredients in it that I can't really determine which might be causing the issues they're having. So I'm currently trying 4Health grain free with their simple formulations and decent protein/fat just to see if maybe, maybe they'll get better. If not, I'll be trying something else.

But when it comes down to it, maybe dog food snobbery wasn't as necessary as I once thought it was.


----------



## LProf

OK, folks. Thanks for those words of wisdom. I feel better already.:smile:


----------



## kevin bradley

LProf said:


> So, where are we now? I am hopelessly confused and getting depressed about what to feed my guys.
> 
> Do I abandon my "Premium" food and start feeding the so called "bad" foods?
> 
> Like all of us, I care very much about my dogs, and it would be devastating to think that I am shortening their lives because I have fallen for marketing hype.
> 
> Yes, they seem to me to be doing OK on the "Premium" food they are getting, but who really knows?



Good question LProf. For me, its foods from smaller companies without vast histories of recalls(Tim's, Nutrisource, Fromm, some of the foods from Mdwest)... ingredient labels that might not rock the world of the holistic community but to me represent what a Dog food should be-at least decent amounts of meat(Dogfoodadvisor does a decent job of indicating this I believe). And foods... I hate to say it... but ones that aren't priced like caviar. I also don't love foods with huge ingredient labels because I've always seemed to have one in my group who has some type of food sensitivities.

Just my thoughts.


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## InkedMarie

My Brittany has the best stool on Natures Logic. Not grainfree, has millet. She has a fuzzy coat on any food she eats, same goes for her weepy eyes. She's had problems at times with frequent softer stools but not on NL.


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## Dr Dolittle

very interesting thread....I can tell you we all won't recognize pet foods in 5 to 10 years, even vet diets will change their look. the marketing has already become nothing but lies but it will get even worse. the marketing sharks of pet food companies know what you as loyal pet lovers want and they are going to give you even more. Whatever ingredient myth they can get to take hold will be their new feature until they all do the same thing and they have to come up with something else. And the real winners will be the vets, that are being more and more diet related issues from these fad diets. most of you don't think much of vets and though I have defended them for many years! they are people too and are falling for sound bite BS over science many times. The good ones that care are getting exhausted and others actually have bought into the lies. Bias may be another word for stupid, when that bias won't allow us to use God Given common sense and a little bit of intellectual discernment. I suppose we are all victims to that to some degree but I can assure you we will all be paying much more in the future for pet food and not getting anything more for it! and in too many cases! inferior foods? Sorry for the sad news. Wish I was wrong! God Bless!


----------



## Celt

I don't have much of a bias due to brand or pay much attention to fads. I do listen to what others feel works better and have discovered both truths and fallacies. I've fed many foods to many dogs for many years. I've seen foods go from "scrap" meat and bones to leftover mixed with meat scraps to "specialized, processed" foods (i.e. kibble). I seen vets go from reccommending dogs be feed a diet of meat to meat mixed with "extras" to kibble mixed with meat to specific brands of kibble. Vet medicine like most of the medical fields is an evolving thing. As we learn, what is diagnosised, treatments, and prescriptions are changed. It's very difficult for any "doctor" to keep up with what's out there and sadly some don't even try. But even those that try, can't always keep up or have the time available to cover everything. It's always been :Buyer beware and nothing has changed in that aspect.


----------



## Sapphire-Light

Some months after the diamond recall, Pompadour finished his propac bag and since I rotate his kibble when he finish a bag, I tried to find another propac flavor or some earthborn , however they only had big or medium bags but those are too mush food for a toy poodle 


I was still angry at diamod, so I looked into the store and they had some small SD bags so I said "meh at least hills didn't had a recall lately" so I got a bag of the small puppy food, and a few weeks later I found out Pompadour's muscle tone was improving 

Since I got him he had trouble keeping muscle in the hip area, and the SD food was the first one to improve it, I'm not sure wish ingredient helped him but of the foods I tried before none of them did this

I tried before royal canin, propac (3 versions), kirkland, eartborn (2 versions) , eukanuba, and two small bags I got from someone in the us as a gift that were of solidgold weebit and Wellness small breed puppy


----------



## Shamrockmommy

InkedMarie said:


> My Brittany has the best stool on Natures Logic. Not grainfree, has millet. She has a fuzzy coat on any food she eats, same goes for her weepy eyes. She's had problems at times with frequent softer stools but not on NL.


I SO wanted NL to be the "it" food for us! It made so much sense to me, but then Darby started to lick her privates frantically every time she peed, and with her history of UTIs and crystals I changed her off immediately and it all stopped.


----------



## Shamrockmommy

Sapphire-Light said:


> Some months after the diamond recall, Pompadour finished his propac bag and since I rotate his kibble when he finish a bag, I tried to find another propac flavor or some earthborn , however they only had big or medium bags but those are too mush food for a toy poodle
> 
> 
> I was still angry at diamod, so I looked into the store and they had some small SD bags so I said "meh at least hills didn't had a recall lately" so I got a bag of the small puppy food, and a few weeks later I found out Pompadour's muscle tone was improving
> 
> Since I got him he had trouble keeping muscle in the hip area, and the SD food was the first one to improve it, I'm not sure wish ingredient helped him but of the foods I tried before none of them did this
> 
> I tried before royal canin, pro pac (3 versions), kirkland, eartborn (2 versions) , eukanuba, and two small bags I got from someone in the us as a gift that were of solidgold weebit and Wellness small breed puppy



Interesting! I go to obedience classes 2x a week with Echo and Jack. there was a GORGEOUS Papillion in Echo's class. Full coat, lots of energy, she looked gorgeous. I said "so you obviously feed raw, she looks amazing!" The lady screwed up her face in slight disgust. "Actually I USED to feed raw but I've been feeding Science Diet for the last several months because I couldn't get diarrhea under control." She admitted she was embarrassed and felt guilty but it worked and coats have even improved. 
SO...
That said. <sigh> Once my bags of 4Health grain free are gone (should take about 2 months or less) I'm am going to suck it up and try SD (grain free. I don't want corny stuff in the house for my own allergy). If that doesn't work, I give up. I'll be home cooking with Strombeck recipes. 

Or something.

The marketing thing has really become disappointing. We don't need a thousand fancy things in the dogs' food. it looks great to our eyes but not necessarily the best thing for our dogs!


----------



## kevin bradley

Dr Dolittle said:


> very interesting thread....I can tell you we all won't recognize pet foods in 5 to 10 years, even vet diets will change their look. the marketing has already become nothing but lies but it will get even worse. the marketing sharks of pet food companies know what you as loyal pet lovers want and they are going to give you even more. Whatever ingredient myth they can get to take hold will be their new feature until they all do the same thing and they have to come up with something else. And the real winners will be the vets, that are being more and more diet related issues from these fad diets. most of you don't think much of vets and though I have defended them for many years! they are people too and are falling for sound bite BS over science many times. The good ones that care are getting exhausted and others actually have bought into the lies. Bias may be another word for stupid, when that bias won't allow us to use God Given common sense and a little bit of intellectual discernment. I suppose we are all victims to that to some degree but I can assure you we will all be paying much more in the future for pet food and not getting anything more for it! and in too many cases! inferior foods? Sorry for the sad news. Wish I was wrong! God Bless!


I agree w/ this. 

Dog foods are marketed to humans and if we think something looks "sexy" and their marketing study proves it moves the needle, VOILA... on the shelf it goes with an ad campaign behind it. 

Its been proven to me when I see IAMS, Science Diet, Purina... these monster companies who have told us there is all this "research and science" behind their foods and they are constructed in some laboratory with the Dogs utmost health at the top of the priority list. 

If the above is the case, then why do I now see their ingredient labels changing... I was just at Target and saw Iams now has a Grain free line with a label that mimicks about 50 other holistic grain free foods that have been out for years. Is it just coincidental they are hitting the market with this now? Or are their Scientists just getting their RESEARCH done which leads them to GF foods and removing corn and by products? Its almost laughable to even type.


----------



## Celt

kevin bradley said:


> I agree w/ this.
> 
> Dog foods are marketed to humans and if we think something looks "sexy" and their marketing study proves it moves the needle, VOILA... on the shelf it goes with an ad campaign behind it.
> 
> Its been proven to me when I see IAMS, Science Diet, Purina... these monster companies who have told us there is all this "research and science" behind their foods and they are constructed in some laboratory with the Dogs utmost health at the top of the priority list.
> 
> If the above is the case, then why do I now see their ingredient labels changing... I was just at Target and saw Iams now has a Grain free line with a label that mimicks about 50 other holistic grain free foods that have been out for years. Is it just coincidental they are hitting the market with this now? Or are their Scientists just getting their RESEARCH done which leads them to GF foods and removing corn and by products? Its almost laughable to even type.



Another way to look at this, is that maybe the reason they're "finally" coming out with a grain free version is that they have tested it and have come back with favorable results. Not saying, it's not a marketing campaign but it is a possibility that they looked at the others' ingredient lists, tested them out, then decided "hey, looks good. let's get a bit of the action and put out a version of our own"


----------



## leaveittoweaver

Celt said:


> Another way to look at this, is that maybe the reason they're "finally" coming out with a grain free version is that they have tested it and have come back with favorable results. Not saying, it's not a marketing campaign but it is a possibility that they looked at the others' ingredient lists, tested them out, then decided "hey, looks good. let's get a bit of the action and put out a version of our own"


I find that usually when they are coming out with a grain free version it's to hop on the grain free trend band wagon. Honestly, EVERY company is doing it. Science Diet is even trying to purposely separate the two lines to the point that they don't want people to say "Science Diet, Ideal balance". They want them to just say "Ideal Balance". Because they think that will make the food better if they try to separate the two lines. At least that is what the rep told me.

I think it's not a bad thing, options are always good. Especially if you like a brand. But I honestly can't even think of a company who has yet to come out with a grain free line unless we're talking grocery store foods...but even some of them have done it too!


----------



## Dr Dolittle

kevin bradley said:


> I agree w/ this.
> 
> Dog foods are marketed to humans and if we think something looks "sexy" and their marketing study proves it moves the needle, VOILA... on the shelf it goes with an ad campaign behind it.
> 
> Its been proven to me when I see IAMS, Science Diet, Purina... these monster companies who have told us there is all this "research and science" behind their foods and they are constructed in some laboratory with the Dogs utmost health at the top of the priority list.
> 
> If the above is the case, then why do I now see their ingredient labels changing... I was just at Target and saw Iams now has a Grain free line with a label that mimicks about 50 other holistic grain free foods that have been out for years. Is it just coincidental they are hitting the market with this now? Or are their Scientists just getting their RESEARCH done which leads them to GF foods and removing corn and by products? Its almost laughable to even type.


Kevin, You are right but don't throw the baby out with the bath water! There is still excellent research going on all the time! you just don't get to hear about it unless you are in the field of nutrition and around these amazing people? What you see from these companies....MONSTERS? Really? ...is simply giving up on educating the public. Consumers want pretty ingredient panels with meat first. So give it to them! You can still look at the actual nutrient levels and determine which ones are built on research and which ones are junk. I would feed Purina and SD, but never Iams. And by the way, SD is a tiny company since they don't make or sell any mass market or grocery foods. Purina has excellent research but it doesn't always end up in all their foods, like Beneful!

trust me! there is no research to support grain free and no corn diets? Yes, there are rare cases of food sensitivities, just saw one yesterday, but extremely rare. The companies are doing it to sell food. Can you and I blame them? The question should be, is this grain free diet healthy and balanced for my dog? The face of pet food is changing but the nutrition is still the same. provide optimal levels of about 50 nutrients to promote health and reduce risk of disease. That has been lost though.


----------



## Dr Dolittle

leaveittoweaver said:


> I find that usually when they are coming out with a grain free version it's to hop on the grain free trend band wagon. Honestly, EVERY company is doing it. Science Diet is even trying to purposely separate the two lines to the point that they don't want people to say "Science Diet, Ideal balance". They want them to just say "Ideal Balance". Because they think that will make the food better if they try to separate the two lines. At least that is what the rep told me.
> 
> I think it's not a bad thing, options are always good. Especially if you like a brand. But I honestly can't even think of a company who has yet to come out with a grain free line unless we're talking grocery store foods...but even some of them have done it too!


Leaveittoweaver, You got it! That is exactly right! LOL! I wish I could come up with the next marketing myth! There has to be one because everyone has duplicated all the myths. The better companies KNOW there is no need for all these diets so they market them more with the idea"if you prefer a grain free food" rather than "our GF diet I'd better" I guess I appreciate that honesty. I am ok with a food company making a no corn diet but when that company then says corn is a filler and has no nutritional value I know they either have no clue of nutrition, or they do know the value of corn but are willing to lie to sell their food. Either way, I want nothing to do with them. Maybe once everyone has exhausted every myth and marketing trick the popular trend will go back to actually evaluating foods based on their research and the actual level of nutrients delivered. I would love to see the day but being in the industry, I don't think I will live that long!


----------



## Jacksons Mom

I have to say, I was curious, and decided to buy a 3.5lb bag of Purina One Beyond lamb last month and he's been eating primarily that and FreshPet (from grocery store -- the "wet kibbles" one) and he's been doing great. I mean no major differences yet. And best part is he eats it all up and loves it. I'm anxious for Farmina though, as he really was obsessed with the wild boar sample, so I'll be feeding that once it's available. But for now, I'm actually okay feeding the Beyond. When I had a small bag of Royal Canin Yorkie, I have to say I did notice his poops were a lot softer, the RC had only chicken, plus corn and corn gluten meal, and brown and white rice, etc, so maybe it was just too much. 

I like how the Beyond is pretty simple. He does well on simple.

Lamb, brewers rice, whole barley, chicken meal (natural source of glucosamine), canola meal, beef fat preserved with mixed-tocopherols (form of Vitamin E), natural liver flavor, dried egg product, salt, potassium chloride, dried spinach, calcium carbonate, choline chloride, Vitamin E supplement, zinc sulfate, ferrous sulfate, manganese sulfate, niacin, Vitamin A supplement, calcium pantothenate, thiamine mononitrate, copper sulfate, riboflavin supplement, Vitamin B-12 supplement, pyridoxine hydrochloride, folic acid, Vitamin D-3 supplement, calcium iodate, biotin, menadione sodium bisulfite complex (source of Vitamin K activity), sodium selenite. C-4281

Crude Protein (MIN) 26.0%
Crude Fat (MIN) 16.0%
Crude Fiber (MAX) 4.0%
Moisture (MAX) 12.0%
Linoleic Acid (MIN) 1.0%
Calcium (Ca) (MIN) 1.0%
Phosphorus (P) (MIN) 0.8%
Zinc (Zn) (Min) 150 ppm
Selenium (Se) (MIN) 0.35 ppm
Vitamin A (MIN) 14,000 IU/kg
Vitamin E (MIN) 150 IU/kg
Glucosamine (MIN)* 400 ppm
Omega-6 Fatty Acids (MIN)* 1.20%


----------



## Shamrockmommy

Funny, I grabbed a small bag of this to try. It's in the "line-up" after 3 more 4 pound bags of grain free 4Health. 
And as far as 4H food, the poops are big and soft like fromm's. Darby was itchy but seems to be ok now today after her bath.

I think I'm going to cook for them... It's just too much worrying.


----------



## Sapphire-Light

Shamrockmommy said:


> Interesting! I go to obedience classes 2x a week with Echo and Jack. there was a GORGEOUS Papillion in Echo's class. Full coat, lots of energy, she looked gorgeous. I said "so you obviously feed raw, she looks amazing!" The lady screwed up her face in slight disgust. "Actually I USED to feed raw but I've been feeding Science Diet for the last several months because I couldn't get diarrhea under control." She admitted she was embarrassed and felt guilty but it worked and coats have even improved.
> SO...
> That said. <sigh> Once my bags of 4Health grain free are gone (should take about 2 months or less) I'm am going to suck it up and try SD (grain free. I don't want corny stuff in the house for my own allergy). If that doesn't work, I give up. I'll be home cooking with Strombeck recipes.
> 
> Or something.
> 
> The marketing thing has really become disappointing. We don't need a thousand fancy things in the dogs' food. it looks great to our eyes but not necessarily the best thing for our dogs!



That story sounds neat  at first I was unsure in trusting hills I think the reason was the few meat it has, however the Diamond incident made me change my mind 

What's odd is that the regular Proplan is similar to SD in ingredients , but the Proplan was the food that made the worst reaction to my dog, he got NASTY tear staining eating eat, it even came down to his cheeks and it was all sticky goo like and redish-brown , it was so nasty some people even asked me if his face was cut and he was bleeding 

It stoped when I fed him Angel eyes and took the food off, I'm not sure what is in that food but it had a bad reaction in him

I understad how raw not working for all dogs, I have tried doing full raw wit Pompadour, but he dislikes raw organs a LOT  but not when they are cooked.


----------



## Shamrockmommy

I'm trying Jack (sensitive poodle) on Purina One Beyond now. First, I've never seen him eat a kibble with such speed before. I know that doesn't mean much, but it also has a more chickeny smell to it compared to other stuff I've fed. 
This morning, nice firm poop. 

Eh.


----------



## kevin bradley

Dr Dolittle said:


> Kevin, You are right but don't throw the baby out with the bath water! There is still excellent research going on all the time! you just don't get to hear about it unless you are in the field of nutrition and around these amazing people? What you see from these companies....MONSTERS? Really? ...is simply giving up on educating the public. Consumers want pretty ingredient panels with meat first. So give it to them! You can still look at the actual nutrient levels and determine which ones are built on research and which ones are junk. I would feed Purina and SD, but never Iams. And by the way, SD is a tiny company since they don't make or sell any mass market or grocery foods. Purina has excellent research but it doesn't always end up in all their foods, like Beneful!
> 
> trust me! there is no research to support grain free and no corn diets? Yes, there are rare cases of food sensitivities, just saw one yesterday, but extremely rare. The companies are doing it to sell food. Can you and I blame them? The question should be, is this grain free diet healthy and balanced for my dog? The face of pet food is changing but the nutrition is still the same. provide optimal levels of about 50 nutrients to promote health and reduce risk of disease. That has been lost though.


Dr D,

I guess we're saying the same thing. 

The Consumer(the human one) really drives what makes it to the shelf in any measurable qty.

Its not just Dog food. Hell no it isn't. Outside of the 1/133 people who have Celiac, Science hasn't come up with one reason for people to go gluten free. But our shelves are now growing with Gluten free claims. 

So here we are w/ this grain free craze, Corn is bad, by products are evil..... and we find these companies(lets take Purina and yes, THEY are a monster company in size I would say) who apparently have reputable research going down... and VOILA, all of a sudden, I'm seeing meat as the first ingredient and by products slowly removed and corn leaving products left and right.

I'm not drawing many conclusions except to say its darn confusing for the average person who works 9-5 and doesn't immerse himself in Veterinary journals to determing what brand, what company to trust.

So we come out to these forums and listen to each other say this is good, this isn't good, thats bad, etc.... and thats where we are. 

I'm convinced if you could convince Humans that Marshmallows were good for Dogs, I mean, if you really started an internet rumor that had legs.... We'd see a Grain Free Marshmallow food for Dogs. Seriously.


----------



## kevin bradley

one addl comment re. Dr D's post(which I think was a good one).....

I know I, for instance... have a REAL dilemma with trusting companies who, say--make one good product say Purina(some would say Purina ProPlan is their top food) but most would agree that Beneful, not so much. So we wonder if a company KNOWS how to make a good product, why compromise their integrity to put out garbage(I know the answer to this and its green in color so my comments are somewhat rhetorical).... I mean, WHY do this? And if you do THIS... What else will you be willing to do? Can I trust ProPlan to stay solid? What if some Consultant rolls into Purina Dog food Headquarters and convinces their Exec's about a cost savings program and some consumer poll that says they can get away with it?

Its tough out there. Real tough.


----------



## Shamrockmommy

Jack is doing SO well on P1B! His tummy has never been this good before. 
I liked it so much I put my other 3 on it and happy results so far!
It's just very hard to overcome the 'information' that I've been reading online about dog food and feed anything that comes from a grocery store! But the tummies have cleared up and scooping up after 4 dogs is no longer a disgusting chore. No gas, no throwing up, no cannon butt. wow. 

I think I"m done trying high protein, grain free, expensive foods for a while! 
Just sharing.


----------



## InkedMarie

Shamrockmommy said:


> Jack is doing SO well on P1B! His tummy has never been this good before.
> I liked it so much I put my other 3 on it and happy results so far!
> It's just very hard to overcome the 'information' that I've been reading online about dog food and feed anything that comes from a grocery store! But the tummies have cleared up and scooping up after 4 dogs is no longer a disgusting chore. No gas, no throwing up, no cannon butt. wow.
> 
> I think I"m done trying high protein, grain free, expensive foods for a while!
> Just sharing.


I think I just found you on DFA!


----------



## Celt

Shamrockmommy said:


> Jack is doing SO well on P1B! His tummy has never been this good before.
> I liked it so much I put my other 3 on it and happy results so far!
> It's just very hard to overcome the 'information' that I've been reading online about dog food and feed anything that comes from a grocery store! But the tummies have cleared up and scooping up after 4 dogs is no longer a disgusting chore. No gas, no throwing up, no cannon butt. wow.
> 
> I think I"m done trying high protein, grain free, expensive foods for a while!
> Just sharing.


This is why, as long as the food "reads decent", I try out almost every "new" brand/diet. Every pup is different, some more than others, which is where knowing your pup and being "open minded" comes into play. One of my pup gets horrible "gut twisting" gas on this food and another gets constipated


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## Dr Dolittle

Sapphire-Light said:


> That story sounds neat  at first I was unsure in trusting hills I think the reason was the few meat it has, however the Diamond incident made me change my mind
> 
> What's odd is that the regular Proplan is similar to SD in ingredients , but the Proplan was the food that made the worst reaction to my dog, he got NASTY tear staining eating eat, it even came down to his cheeks and it was all sticky goo like and redish-brown , it was so nasty some people even asked me if his face was cut and he was bleeding
> 
> It stoped when I fed him Angel eyes and took the food off, I'm not sure what is in that food but it had a bad reaction in him
> 
> I understad how raw not working for all dogs, I have tried doing full raw wit Pompadour, but he dislikes raw organs a LOT  but not when they are cooked.


I find it so amazing that the woman actually felt embarrassed and guilty for feeding a food that has helped her pet thrive! Only the power of advertising and marketing American style could achieve such a scenario. instead of her feeling great that her pet is doing so well eating a food formulated by some of the top nutritionists in the world and has more clinical studies built into it than any other food sold in Petsmart! she feels bad! But a Blue Buffalo demo person with NO real knowledge can somehow convince people of nonsense. we live in a strange time!


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## Dr Dolittle

kevin bradley said:


> I agree with this.
> 
> I feel like a fool now... when I first stumbled onto feeding "better" foods, I would spout off to people about how their foods weren't very good, etc.... I recall telling one friend how Eukanuba sucked and how they needed to find a better food. Even though their Dog was doing fine on Eukanuba.
> 
> What a jackass I was.


It's not being a jackass! It's the process of learning! I often say my arrogance of youth has been replaced with the humbleness of experience! I actually was an Iams rep in NYC and said lots of stupid things they told me till someone straightened me out. just the way it is!


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## Dr Dolittle

kevin bradley said:


> one addl comment re. Dr D's post(which I think was a good one).....
> 
> I know I, for instance... have a REAL dilemma with trusting companies who, say--make one good product say Purina(some would say Purina ProPlan is their top food) but most would agree that Beneful, not so much. So we wonder if a company KNOWS how to make a good product, why compromise their integrity to put out garbage(I know the answer to this and its green in color so my comments are somewhat rhetorical).... I mean, WHY do this? And if you do THIS... What else will you be willing to do? Can I trust ProPlan to stay solid? What if some Consultant rolls into Purina Dog food Headquarters and convinces their Exec's about a cost savings program and some consumer poll that says they can get away with it?
> 
> Its tough out there. Real tough.


Kevin, for years it bothered me that Purina would make diets like Beneful when they did enough research to know how to make a better food? it still bothers me. the head nutritionist Dr. Dorothy laflamme would tell you there are ranges of healthy nutrient levels and some of their foods are just at different spots within those ranges? I don't buy it. But if I had to make a choice! having looked at individual diets nutrients! not how well the marketers make it look! I would feel a Purina beyond over ANY of the expensive foods mentioned here on this forum. You have figured it out brother! Don't second guess yourself now! LOL! I can honestly say I have looked at every brand when they recreate themselves with their newer! fancier! more expensive version! and have found USUALLY their original less expensive diet has the better nutrient profile....based on science rather than marketing. Keep it simple! the lower the phosphorus level the better the meat sources which says a lot about the quality integrity of the company.The Vit E level on the bag should be 40 or more to have any effect. If the dogs coat is fine I don't need to fret over omega 3s and 6s. L-Carnitine gets mentioned sometimes! a great supplement that helps burn fat and maintain muscle! needs to be around 300 IU s in dog food, not the usual 15! Don't show me the ingredient panel! I don't care! but if the nutritional statement says For ALL Life Stages, it's a puppy formula BY law so I won't feed those excesses to my adult or older dog. Period!


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## Dr Dolittle

I just have to say that the common sense and critical thinking expressed on this thread would make most pet food marketers crap in their pants! you are on to them!  God bless!


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## LProf

OK, I am convinced. I am going to switch my guys over to Purina One Beyond from the Acanna Singles I have been feeding them and see how they do. I will transition them slowly and once they have been on it for awhile will report back on the results. 

I am, at this point, tired of fretting over the food I am feeding them.


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## Shamrockmommy

Just listen to your dog, Lprof. Purina may or may not be awesome for your dogs, you just have to try it and see. 

For instance, I tried 4Health Grain free, which had a good nutrient profile but it totally did not work!


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## Shamrockmommy

LProf said:


> OK, I am convinced. I am going to switch my guys over to Purina One Beyond from the Acanna Singles I have been feeding them and see how they do. I will transition them slowly and once they have been on it for awhile will report back on the results.
> 
> I am, at this point, tired of fretting over the food I am feeding them.


Did you see Acana is changing the formula of the singles line?


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## LProf

Shamrockmommy said:


> Did you see Acana is changing the formula of the singles line?


Yes, I did. And when I asked my pet food store about it, they told me it was to improve it. Acanna CS told me the same thing when I asked them the same question. Really!!

That actually is one of the reasons I am giving up and going to try the Purina One Beyond. 

One concern I have though is the recall Purina recently did on the POB. Should I be worried about that do you think?


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## LProf

Shamrockmommy said:


> Just listen to your dog, Lprof. Purina may or may not be awesome for your dogs, you just have to try it and see.
> 
> For instance, I tried 4Health Grain free, which had a good nutrient profile but it totally did not work!


Yep, I get that. Not expecting miracles. But, will give it a try and see how my guys do on it.


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## Shamrockmommy

The recall had only one bag of food test positive for salmonella. I dunno. natura had two recalls last year for the same and people still buy it. 
I bought the chicken P1B. 

I keep watch for recalls no matter which dry food I feed.


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## BrownieM

Shamrockmommy said:


> Did you see Acana is changing the formula of the singles line?


Oh no! I love Acana Singles! What are they changing?

ETA: Nevermind. You've got to be kidding me. They ruined the food! My dog that this food worked wonderful for does not tolerate lentils. Oatmeal was a MUCH better choice than freaking lentils! UGH!


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## kevin bradley

Dr Dolittle said:


> It's not being a jackass! It's the process of learning! I often say my arrogance of youth has been replaced with the humbleness of experience! I actually was an Iams rep in NYC and said lots of stupid things they told me till someone straightened me out. just the way it is!


very true Dr D. I'd like a free pass for my 20's.


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## kevin bradley

Dr Dolittle said:


> Kevin, for years it bothered me that Purina would make diets like Beneful when they did enough research to know how to make a better food? it still bothers me. the head nutritionist Dr. Dorothy laflamme would tell you there are ranges of healthy nutrient levels and some of their foods are just at different spots within those ranges? I don't buy it. But if I had to make a choice! having looked at individual diets nutrients! not how well the marketers make it look! I would feel a Purina beyond over ANY of the expensive foods mentioned here on this forum. You have figured it out brother! Don't second guess yourself now! LOL! I can honestly say I have looked at every brand when they recreate themselves with their newer! fancier! more expensive version! and have found USUALLY their original less expensive diet has the better nutrient profile....based on science rather than marketing. Keep it simple! the lower the phosphorus level the better the meat sources which says a lot about the quality integrity of the company.The Vit E level on the bag should be 40 or more to have any effect. If the dogs coat is fine I don't need to fret over omega 3s and 6s. L-Carnitine gets mentioned sometimes! a great supplement that helps burn fat and maintain muscle! needs to be around 300 IU s in dog food, not the usual 15! Don't show me the ingredient panel! I don't care! but if the nutritional statement says For ALL Life Stages, it's a puppy formula BY law so I won't feed those excesses to my adult or older dog. Period!




Good post there. I'm printing this out.


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## kevin bradley

Dr Dolittle said:


> I just have to say that the common sense and critical thinking expressed on this thread would make most pet food marketers crap in their pants! you are on to them!  God bless!



Lets just say I've seen this in action in another related industry... without saying too much, check my hometown and do the math.

Look... without going on too much of a tangent or rant, I love the free market and capitalism. However, its buyer beware out there, folks. And the studies, the MARKETING studies that go down without a break are powerful. They learn what moves the needle and they go after it with relentlessness. 

I've seen it in COUNTLESS examples in our food. In the 80's, the trend was "low fat" so sugar replaced fat and voila... refined carb laden garbage on every shelf. Fast forward to today and its now protein so they inject protein into everything because people think flooding their bodies with protein is the key to losing weight and lots and lots of muscle. Really? Show me the Univ study that conclusively proves we need these enourmous amounts of protein. 

In America, it makes NO difference what is true. It only matters what will SELL. It is up to US to use logic to drive them to make what we want to BUY.

Rant off 

thanks


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## Dr Dolittle

kevin bradley said:


> very true Dr D. I'd like a free pass for my 20's.


Don't believe anyone under 50! LOL! It takes 50 years of life to appreciate truth and give up on agendas!


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## LProf

I just noticed that Purina One Beyond is adding some new formulas, starting this summer, including a grain free. So, isn't that just marketing hype, getting on the bandwagon to keep up with the so-called premium brands, and what does that say about Purina

Acanna is substituting Lentils and beans for Oats and Barley in their Singles line and now this change by Purina.

I was planning on trying One Beyond, but now am not so sure.

This business of finding a proper food has become so bloody frustrating. Unbelievable!

My wife tells me that I am fretting far too much over what food to feed our boys, but, to me, they are like our kids now, and I want to do the best I can for them.

Rant over.


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## Shamrockmommy

I actually called purina to find out if the chicken and lamb formulas would be changing. They said they will not be changing them. 

I don't mind that they are coming out with a couple more. Except for the grain free tuna one I'm betting ts going to be very similar to the original two formulas. But then it's just a guess. 

I was looking for something fairly simple and not terribly trendy and so far it's working well. Jack is eating it as 75% of his diet so he is getting canned and fresh foods mixed in. He hasn't turned into a mutant yet  

The cat is also doing well on ideal balance dry. He switched over cold turkey with no issues at all. 
I'll keep reporting with my experiments.


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## MollyWoppy

I will also report on my experience with Farmina when my cat switches over. I'm also going to switch cold turkey. At the moment, her coat is dull and not in great condition, she finds it hard to put on weight, but most importantly, she is prone to UTI's and bladder crystals unless I'm ultra vigilant with her water intake. I'm excited to see how she does on Farmina.


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## Jacksons Mom

Jackson's been eating Purina Beyond *gasp* and doing very well. We're on our 2nd 3.5lb bag. Waiting for Farmina though. But I do like that I have a food readily available (at grocery stores) that he does well on, AND it's pretty damn cheap. I think it was like $8.99 for a 3.5lb bag.


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## Shamrockmommy

Walmart has it for 6.88 . 

Jacks doing great here so far.


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## LProf

Because of the influence of Shamrockmommy and Dr. Dolittle, I have gone over to the Dark Side and have started transitioning my guys to One Beyond. I started them today on the chicken, but did buy a bag of the lamb to try if they do well on the Chicken. 

I don't like that Acanna is substituting lentils and Beans for Oats, so decided to make the switch now to see how they do.

I do like that Purina is coming out this summer with two new formulas of the Beyond, it appears a Turkey and a Fish. Hopefully, the formulas will be the same, other then for the different protein. 

Interestingly, I had a bit of a hard time finding it, and in the smaller bags. My Safeway grocery doesn't carry it, and My local Walmart only had the larger bags. I finally found it in a nearby Albertsons.


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## Dr Dolittle

LProf said:


> Because of the influence of Shamrockmommy and Dr. Dolittle, I have gone over to the Dark Side and have started transitioning my guys to One Beyond. I started them today on the chicken, but did buy a bag of the lamb to try if they do well on the Chicken.
> 
> I don't like that Acanna is substituting lentils and Beans for Oats, so decided to make the switch now to see how they do.
> 
> I do like that Purina is coming out this summer with two new formulas of the Beyond, it appears a Turkey and a Fish. Hopefully, the formulas will be the same, other then for the different protein.
> 
> Interestingly, I had a bit of a hard time finding it, and in the smaller bags. My Safeway grocery doesn't carry it, and My local Walmart only had the larger bags. I finally found it in a nearby Albertsons.


LOL! I have to make it clear I am not the biggest fan of Purina as a company and things they do but if I remove all that bias and simply look at products, I really can't say anything agaoinst switching to Purina One Beyond from these fad diets, for the health and wellbeing of the dog, and the wallet.


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## LProf

Dr Dolittle said:


> LOL! I have to make it clear I am not the biggest fan of Purina as a company and things they do but if I remove all that bias and simply look at products, I really can't say anything agaoinst switching to Purina One Beyond from these fad diets, for the health and wellbeing of the dog, and the wallet.


And, I want to make it clear that my wallet is not the issue. I am lucky that I can readily afford to feed the expensive premium foods if they are the best food for my dogs.

The only issue is the health and well being of my dogs, and I thought that I had read that you wrote that you would feed a One Beyond food over the trendy premium foods. Since this is your area of expertise, I respect your opinion. Is that not accurate?


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## Shamrockmommy

I was just looking for a food that would stop Jack's tummy issues, and P1B did it for him. I can't say I like Purina's ridiculous excuse for a food "Beneful!" 

Lprof, another one I'm having good luck with, super simple, and a good nutrient profile is the Precise Naturals line (Foundation, Sensicare, Senior). Really liking it for Echo and Darby. Cookie (tiny chihuahua) pooped a whole bunch on it, though, and is doing better on P1B. Fromm is good, as well. 

IT's so confusing, isn't it? Ack! Which foods are the "right" ones? Dr. Doolittle has given us the "whys" of nutrients, which helps, but still, the pet food business is a confusing thing to figure out!


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## LProf

Shamrockmommy said:


> I was just looking for a food that would stop Jack's tummy issues, and P1B did it for him. I can't say I like Purina's ridiculous excuse for a food "Beneful!"
> 
> Lprof, another one I'm having good luck with, super simple, and a good nutrient profile is the Precise Naturals line (Foundation, Sensicare, Senior). Really liking it for Echo and Darby. Cookie (tiny chihuahua) pooped a whole bunch on it, though, and is doing better on P1B. Fromm is good, as well.
> 
> IT's so confusing, isn't it? Ack! Which foods are the "right" ones? Dr. Doolittle has given us the "whys" of nutrients, which helps, but still, the pet food business is a confusing thing to figure out!


Frankly, my boys have been doing OK on the Acana Singles line. The only reason I was changing was because they are going to Lentils and beans in place of the Oats. Maybe I am looking at problems that don't really exist, and should keep them on the Acana and see how they do after the changeover. Or, I suppose wait until the Farmina becomes available in a few weeks and try them on that. 

Oh well, some more lost sleep worrying about what to feed. This is really crazy.


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## Dr Dolittle

LProf said:


> And, I want to make it clear that my wallet is not the issue. I am lucky that I can readily afford to feed the expensive premium foods if they are the best food for my dogs.
> 
> The only issue is the health and well being of my dogs, and I thought that I had read that you wrote that you would feed a One Beyond food over the trendy premium foods. Since this is your area of expertise, I respect your opinion. Is that not accurate?


That is absolutely accurate! And as you said, that is based on what I believe is best for my dogs health.


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## Shamrockmommy

Lprof, I feel you on the sleepless nights! I can spend an obscene amount of time worrying about what to feed my dogs. 
I've tried SO many kinds of foods, it's ridiculous. I carry a LOT of guilt for what I feed my dogs, because of the initial 'raw is best' which has been drilled into my brain from my first dog 18 years ago. I worry about what "other people" might think of me if I feed raw or don't, or feed kibble or don't, or home-cook or don't, or feed canned or don't. (Because people can be downright NASTY over this topic!) Honestly, spending time on forums about dog food often makes me worry more! LOL I have spent days and weeks reading food labels, reading websites, opinions, reviews, advisor sites. I have called several companies, asked other dog people friends (at the training facility), asked vets, irritated and annoyed my husband beyond belief LOL. 

I don't think your dogs will turn into mutants on the new Acana, nor will they on Purina One Beyond. I switched mostly because 1. Of my four dogs, my poodle has a ridiculously sensitive stomach. 2. Long time friend and poodle breeder kept pushing me to give PO a try, she's fed it for years, and all her dogs have been healthy and live long. 3. My first foster dog lived with his new mom from age 6-20 years old on nothing but Hills w/d! (read that label LOL). 4. Dr.D came on here talking about nutrients, which got me thinking and brave enough to finally listen to my friend and try. 
What do you know, it worked for him! <shrugs>

At this point, I"m open to trying anything that looks decent. I plan on letting the dogs tell me what's best for them. 

If it's such a worry, Lprof, feed the P1B until it's gone (or return it, if it makes you feel better) and then try them back on Acana again, they might be fine with lentils and peas. They will be fine  which ever food you choose. 

Should we feed them well? You bet! I want to avoid the vet except for the annual heart worm test and the 3-year rabies. That's all I want to have to go in for, so keeping that in mind, I feed foods that will keep my dogs well. 

<shrugs> 
PS. I hope this makes sense


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## LProf

Dr Dolittle said:


> That is absolutely accurate! And as you said, that is based on what I believe is best for my dogs health.


OK, great. Thank you. Appreciate the quick response. I will continue with my One Beyond transition and see how my boys do on it. I really appreciate your advice here.


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## LProf

Shamrockmommy said:


> Lprof, I feel you on the sleepless nights! I can spend an obscene amount of time worrying about what to feed my dogs.
> I've tried SO many kinds of foods, it's ridiculous. I carry a LOT of guilt for what I feed my dogs, because of the initial 'raw is best' which has been drilled into my brain from my first dog 18 years ago. I worry about what "other people" might think of me if I feed raw or don't, or feed kibble or don't, or home-cook or don't, or feed canned or don't. (Because people can be downright NASTY over this topic!) Honestly, spending time on forums about dog food often makes me worry more! LOL I have spent days and weeks reading food labels, reading websites, opinions, reviews, advisor sites. I have called several companies, asked other dog people friends (at the training facility), asked vets, irritated and annoyed my husband beyond belief LOL.
> 
> I don't think your dogs will turn into mutants on the new Acana, nor will they on Purina One Beyond. I switched mostly because 1. Of my four dogs, my poodle has a ridiculously sensitive stomach. 2. Long time friend and poodle breeder kept pushing me to give PO a try, she's fed it for years, and all her dogs have been healthy and live long. 3. My first foster dog lived with his new mom from age 6-20 years old on nothing but Hills w/d! (read that label LOL). 4. Dr.D came on here talking about nutrients, which got me thinking and brave enough to finally listen to my friend and try.
> What do you know, it worked for him! <shrugs>
> 
> At this point, I"m open to trying anything that looks decent. I plan on letting the dogs tell me what's best for them.
> 
> If it's such a worry, Lprof, feed the P1B until it's gone (or return it, if it makes you feel better) and then try them back on Acana again, they might be fine with lentils and peas. They will be fine  which ever food you choose.
> 
> Should we feed them well? You bet! I want to avoid the vet except for the annual heart worm test and the 3-year rabies. That's all I want to have to go in for, so keeping that in mind, I feed foods that will keep my dogs well.
> 
> <shrugs>
> PS. I hope this makes sense


Yep, makes good sense. As I wrote re; Dr Dolittle's post, I will continue with the One Beyond. If all goes well, I will stay with it. If not, I will decide then. Hopefully, they will both do well on the OB, and that will solve the food problem for me, allowing me to then switch among the different OB formulas this summer.


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## Shamrockmommy

Good, I'm glad it made sense. Got interrupted a few times while writing it LOL.

I still stand by my "listen to your dog" comment. They have the final say in what's best for them.


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## LProf

Shamrockmommy said:


> Good, I'm glad it made sense. Got interrupted a few times while writing it LOL.
> 
> I still stand by my "listen to your dog" comment. They have the final say in what's best for them.


Agree with that.


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## Dr Dolittle

Sleepless nights over pet food is really not needed! I tell you what! I will do some homework and compare the nutrients that matter most in preventing disease and promoting health, in Origen (tell me which one to use) and Purina ONE Beyond and maybe SD and something like Wellness Core....probably should include Old Roy to really make it interesting!

someone yesterday said soothing so true. Most foods will work for most dogs...healthy stool, good weight, healthy skin and coat,etc. the real distinction is which foods are providing exceptional nutrient control to help keep our pets healthy as they age? That really is what we all want!


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## LProf

Dr Dolittle said:


> Sleepless nights over pet food is really not needed! I tell you what! I will do some homework and compare the nutrients that matter most in preventing disease and promoting health, in Origen (tell me which one to use) and Purina ONE Beyond and maybe SD and something like Wellness Core....probably should include Old Roy to really make it interesting!
> 
> someone yesterday said soothing so true. Most foods will work for most dogs...healthy stool, good weight, healthy skin and coat,etc. the real distinction is which foods are providing exceptional nutrient control to help keep our pets healthy as they age? That really is what we all want!


That will be great, thanks, but not so much Origen, but the Acana Singles line, which is what I had been feeding, either the Lamb or Duck formula. 

Look forward to your findings. Thanks again for going to this trouble.


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## Shamrockmommy

The popular "5-star" foods these days are Orijen, Acana, Fromm, Merrick, Blue Buffalo and Taste Of the Wild.

Those are the ones you see on all the forums much of the time. 

Of those, only Fromm worked just "ok" for mine, and the original formula of Acana was great as well.


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## Shamrockmommy

Dr Dolittle said:


> Sleepless nights over pet food is really not needed! I tell you what! I will do some homework and compare the nutrients that matter most in preventing disease and promoting health, in Origen (tell me which one to use) and Purina ONE Beyond and maybe SD and something like Wellness Core....probably should include Old Roy to really make it interesting!
> 
> someone yesterday said soothing so true. Most foods will work for most dogs...healthy stool, good weight, healthy skin and coat,etc. the real distinction is which foods are providing exceptional nutrient control to help keep our pets healthy as they age? That really is what we all want!


Looking forward to that!


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## MollyWoppy

I think Farmina will become one of the top 5 as well, so might as well compare that to the others too.


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## InkedMarie

I say what works for your dog as long as it's not what I consider bad:Alpo, ole Roy, Beneful. IMO, if people feed that, they can find a food of similar cost but better ingredients.


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## MollyWoppy

Or a food that's had a lot of recalls for quality control. Or recalls because ingredients or lack of quality control have killed or seriously sickened dogs or cats. Personally, that is one criteria I will never forgive a brand or company for.


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## flashyfawn

Shamrockmommy, I'm with you. Feeding a dog really should not be so hard and confusing. 

Personally I'm going all in with Hills. I have Old Lady Dog happily eating a prescription food, and now there is a little bag of Hills Ideal Balance on the way from Chewy for my other dog. I'm sure she'll eat it as she will eat anything, and I'm expecting she will do just fine on it. She is 8.5 yrs old and being 100 lbs, she is not quite young anymore. I have to do yearly blood work on her because of a medication so I know everything is functioning fine, but the thought of excess stuff (nutrients? not really sure of the right word) harming her over time bothers me, a lot. She seems to be doing okay on the food she's currently on, but I have my concerns. I really do believe in the research that goes into the Hills diets. I have an open mind and will see what happens, but I'm expecting good results.


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## Shamrockmommy

My mean ol' cat is the first to try SD lol. He's such a turd, I do all my food/brand experiments on him first LOL.

He likes it and the litter box has been fine/no transition issues.


----------

