# Kelp



## whiteleo (Sep 7, 2008)

So I really take offense to being called a BARF feeder for giving my dogs a kelp supplement. 

I think if a few on here were to do their research they might find that they wouldn't have to load their dogs up on steroids for the "itching season" as they call it, or for the Nordic itch, it is a defiency or thyroid issue. Steroids do far MORE damage to a dogs insides than kelp will ever do. 

So please, read up on things before you post about things you know nothing about,


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## Mia (Oct 4, 2010)

Oy.. Ok.
I just thought that vegs/fruits or any other thing added to PMR is considered BARF. Not a strict prey model diet.


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## whiteleo (Sep 7, 2008)

So then all of us who are adding in a fish supplement! That means we are adding and supplementing! I don't buy all the dogs who have been on a raw diet and still have environmental issues, it is a defiency in the diet as far as I'm concerned. And as I've learned and read and researched this has helped my dogs.


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## jdatwood (Apr 13, 2009)

So instead of once again jumping to the defensive why don't you share the information you have. It doesn't do any good to continue posting these threads if you're just going to subtly attack others.


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## Animal Quackers (Jul 10, 2010)

whiteleo said:


> And as I've learned and read and researched this has helped my dogs.


Good for you. Clearly, we ALL feel this way about feeding our dogs, which is why we have moved from kibble to raw. We don't all do it the same - to each his own - and more power to you if it makes you happy. Other do it other ways, I do it my own way, too...and _more power to us, too!_


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## Mia (Oct 4, 2010)

Uhmm, isnt fish a form of meat? If there aren't any fish, the vitamin is the next best thing? Just wondering.. not trying to start anything:frown:


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## k9capture_16 (Aug 23, 2010)

Kelp is kelp is kelp. It is considered plant matter and if your adding this on a frequent basis then to me its a part of the diet and therefore Barf model feeding. I feed Veggies. I literally just gave my dog a cooked carrot off the stove top. Why? as a treat, it will have zero benefit to him so its not included all the time. It and any other veggies he gets like the odd slice of my apple or some of my pear is a treat. He gets them maybe once or twice a month and its only a single slice. 

I am strict when it comes to his diet. I stick to PMR. I dont mind veggies as a treat every now and again. Same with tripe. I dont feed it regularily. I buy a few cans when on sale of the Tripette brand and feed some of the can as a treat to his meal. 

I admit I have used kelp before when I had him on pre-made Barf model about 2 years ago. That only last a month tho because I listened to my vet. When I switched I thought about it and said no kelp this time and raw has helped in great.

If you want to feed it thats your choice  As I have learned from being on here, dont get offended by peoples opinions as it is just that...an opinion.


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## whiteleo (Sep 7, 2008)

Yes I believe you are! People supplement with glucosamine/chondroiton all the time to a raw diet, does that make them a BARF feeder?


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## Mia (Oct 4, 2010)

K9 - I kinda thought the same. Atleast from what I have read.


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## whiteleo (Sep 7, 2008)

Lets see 1/2 tsp once a week!!!!!!!!!!!Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm


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## whiteleo (Sep 7, 2008)

So answer the question about supplementing with glucosamine!


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## jdatwood (Apr 13, 2009)

It's been said by another member that we should give kelp to supplement for Iodine

Red meat
Fish
Eggs

ALL contain iodine
http://www.net-lanna.info/food/Articles/11014330.pdf

I can't see giving plant material (it's common knowledge that dogs lack the dentition & digestive system to break down plant cellulose) for something they already get in a raw meat, bones & organs diet.

I'm curious where it's been recommended that dogs need plants for vitamins & minerals?




whiteleo said:


> Lets see 1/2 tsp once a week!!!!!!!!!!!Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm


HUH??? What are you saying?



whiteleo said:


> So answer the question about supplementing with glucosamine!


First off, it's not a plant that dogs can't digest

Most people that give it say they do it "just in case". They'd rather create expensive pee in case it does help




whiteleo said:


> And by your standards of feeding you are also a BARF feeder if your giving a carrot to your dog.


*NOT TRUE* If someone gives their dog a carrot as a *TREAT *knowing it doesn't provide *ANY *nutrition I would say that doesn't fall into the *BARF *category. BARF feeders give plants because they believe their dogs get nutrition from the plants


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## whiteleo (Sep 7, 2008)

Do you think I just started feeding a raw diet, I have been doing this for awhile now so I know where to get my advice from and who to ask, Yes, I may have learned from RFD, he helped me immensly and I appreciate that but I have other sources who have been feeding a raw diet way longer than anyone on this board.

And by your standards of feeding you are also a BARF feeder if your giving a carrot to your dog.


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## k9capture_16 (Aug 23, 2010)

What does supplementing joint pills have to do with barf model? Glucosamine and Chondrin is a mineral..not plant matter. This is how I look at it, if your adding veggies (plant matter like kelp) to a dogs diet because you think (or it does) help and its a part of their diet..your feeding Barf model. If your like me and feed it as treats on special occasions once in a few blue moons then no...your still following PMR. I dont give him veggies because they are good for him, I give him the odd slice because he likes them and they dont bother him. Same with tripe...he likes it so he gets it as a treat every now and again.

Fish is not a plant, if it is then I clearly have been missing out on life and information. Fish can be and is a part of most PMR diets. Not mine tho. I give it about once every two weeks as mine will only eat the "expensive" fish lol.


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## whiteleo (Sep 7, 2008)

It is not in a large form that they need to eat it! It is all crushed up like seasoning.


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## Mia (Oct 4, 2010)

I dont understand why this has to be so vindictive? I was simply asking. Not trying to stir things up. When you post harsh come backs and stuff it's a real time waster and thread killer. People have their own opinions, take it or leave it. It's not set in stone. :frown:


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## whiteleo (Sep 7, 2008)

My point exactly!!!!!! If you smart enough to figure it out, Kelp is full of minerals that dogs are lacking in a raw diet, not just iodine.


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## k9capture_16 (Aug 23, 2010)

Whiteleo, I gave him A SINGLE carrot. That will be the last carrot he will get until the next holiday which is Christmas. So no..that does not make me a BARF model feeder. Veggies have no need in a CARNIVORES diet. What you can get from veggies you can get from meat, bones, organs, fish, eggs etc. To make veggies digestable to a dog you need to puree it. Do you see wolves puring veggies? IMO if you have to puree it to make it digestable its not natural. Do you see wolves diving to the bottom of a lake to gather kelp? If so...then please tell me where I can watch this.


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## jdatwood (Apr 13, 2009)

whiteleo said:


> My point exactly!!!!!! If you smart enough to figure it out, Kelp is full of minerals that dogs are lacking in a raw diet, not just iodine.


This is just getting old. You never back up anything you say

*PROVE IT*


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## whiteleo (Sep 7, 2008)

What would you like me to back up Jon? Iodine is needed in a dogs diet, potassium, (k) for thyroid, ash etc. What, what, what do you want!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## Animal Quackers (Jul 10, 2010)

jdatwood said:


> *PROVE IT*


Yes whiteleo, can you please...because at this point, I don't even know WHAT you are trying TO prove....


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## DaneMama (Jun 27, 2008)

whiteleo said:


> What would you like me to back up Jon? Iodine is needed in a dogs diet, potassium, (k) for thyroid, ash etc. What, what, what do you want!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


And dogs get plenty of iodine from species appropriate foods like eggs, meat and fish. Making the kelp supplement unecessary.


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## jdatwood (Apr 13, 2009)

whiteleo said:


> What would you like me to back up Jon? Iodine is needed in a dogs diet, potassium, (k) for thyroid, ash etc. What, what, what do you want!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


Show me your research. Show me where a raw meaty diet is deficient in these things.

I want you to back up what you're saying. I just PROVED that red meat, chicken, fish, eggs ALL have iodine defeating the purpose to supplement a *PLANT *for it by presenting you with a study of iodine in foods

I'm sorry, just telling me to feed it because you think I should isn't good enough.

*ASH*? Please tell me why a dog needs *ASH*

The ONLY time I've seen claims like this are from people recommending a BARF diet...


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## Mia (Oct 4, 2010)

I have never seen a wolf eat kelp. I thought the sole purpose of PMR was to mimic exactly what the carnivore (wolves) do in the wild. 

Anything added which is not related isn't considered such. 

So PMR:
Bone
Muscle Meat
Organs
Liver

Anything else would be BARF (right?) Because you are modifiying the diet.


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## Animal Quackers (Jul 10, 2010)

Oh, are you trying to say dogs NEED kelp to get iodine, whiteleo? If so, can you please provide _evidence_ (rather than opinion) to back up what you are saying, just as Jon did in his post stating that dogs receive all the iodine they need from meat and not plant?


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## whiteleo (Sep 7, 2008)

Maybe in your eyes! I haven't had to supplement my dogs diet with steroids to stop the itching now have I, its a proven fact that iodine will improve skin and coat and many other issues and I, only I say that my dogs diet is lacking something in the PMR diet. So, lets leave it at that and you can continue to give those steroids to your dogs that thin the lining of the walls of their stomach.


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## Animal Quackers (Jul 10, 2010)

whiteleo said:


> Kelp is full of minerals that dogs are lacking in a raw diet, not just iodine.


Like what?


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## Animal Quackers (Jul 10, 2010)

whiteleo said:


> Maybe in your eyes! I haven't had to supplement my dogs diet with steroids to stop the itching now have I, its a proven fact that iodine will improve skin and coat and many other issues and I, only I say that my dogs diet is lacking something in the PMR diet. So, lets leave it at that and you can continue to give those steroids to your dogs that thin the lining of the walls of their stomach.


I am so confused!  Whiteleo,are you saying that my dog will itch if I do not suppliment his diet with kelp? When does that start? My dogs so far have not had dry or itchy skin....


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## jdatwood (Apr 13, 2009)

whiteleo said:


> Maybe in your eyes! I haven't had to supplement my dogs diet with steroids to stop the itching now have I, its a proven fact that iodine will improve skin and coat and many other issues and I, only I say that my dogs diet is lacking something in the PMR diet. So, lets leave it at that and you can continue to give those steroids to your dogs that thin the lining of the walls of their stomach.


I'll say this once, *STOP* the personal attacks.

*BACK YOUR STATEMENTS UP*

You never do. 


You say "_it's a proven fact_"... *WHERE*? *WE are ALL asking for you to show us*


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## Mia (Oct 4, 2010)

whiteleo said:


> So, lets leave it at that and you can continue to give those steroids to your dogs that thin the lining of the walls of their stomach.


I guess we all killing our beloved dogs then.:frown:


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## DaneMama (Jun 27, 2008)

Whiteleo, let me ask you this: Have you ever had a dog that had environmental allergies? 

I don't think Shiloh has severe environtmental allergies because of a deficiency in her diet. If she was lacking in something she would need steroids year round to keep her from eating holes in herself. But the fact that it's like clockwork that she starts chewing holes the exact same time of year makes me believe it's environmental and not diet related. Trying to compare your dogs to anyone elses is not an effective way to make your point. There are too many differences between to make it logical.


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## jdatwood (Apr 13, 2009)

danemama08 said:


> Trying to compare your dogs to anyone elses is not an effective way to make your point. There are too many differences between to make it logical.


Let alone the fact she's throwing that out there to try and discredit me instead of simply answering the questions she's being presented with

*PETTY behavior*


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## spookychick13 (Jan 26, 2010)

Errrrrrrrrrr back to the topic of kelp, I actually tried it for a bit for Flip, I heard it was supposed to help 'snow nose'. It didn't seem to do much, but to be fair, I didn't keep him on it very long, I kept forgetting about it.

Has anyone heard of this working?


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## Animal Quackers (Jul 10, 2010)

Animal Quackers said:


> Oh, are you trying to say dogs NEED kelp to get iodine, whiteleo? If so, can you please provide _evidence_ (rather than opinion) to back up what you are saying, just as Jon did in his post stating that dogs receive all the iodine they need from meat and not plant?


Please do...really...I would love to read up on this so I can educate myself like you have!


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## jdatwood (Apr 13, 2009)

spookychick13 said:


> Has anyone heard of this working?


I've yet to read something proving that dogs don't get everything they need from meat, bones & organs.

I've seen lots of conjecture though


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## k9capture_16 (Aug 23, 2010)

So basically what your saying Whiteleo is that because we dont feed kelp we must be pumping our dogs with steriods to stop the itching? PMR has clearned my dogs allergies up for the most part and maybe in the last 2 months he had three benedryl pills.


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## jdatwood (Apr 13, 2009)

k9capture_16 said:


> So basically what your saying Whiteleo is that because we dont feed kelp we must be pumping our dogs with steriods to stop the itching? PMR has clearned my dogs allergies up for the most part and maybe in the last 2 months he had three benedryl pills.


No, it's a personal attack on Natalie and I because for the first time in 4 years we had to put Shiloh on steroids for 2 weeks due to a MAJOR hot spot.

If Shiloh's diet were deficient in kelp she would have to be on steroids year round.

It was simply a tactic to take the focus off of her (or at least to attempt to) and move it onto me since I was questioning her information.




whiteleo said:


> So please, read up on things before you post about things you know nothing about,


You really should follow your own advice and get the full story before you try to call someone out for something. I'm sadly disappointed...


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## Animal Quackers (Jul 10, 2010)

I am still hoping whiteleo will tell me at what point into feeding raw I should expect my dogs to develop allergies if I do not put them on kelp...6 months, 8, a year?


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## sassymaxmom (Dec 7, 2008)

I bought kelp for Max back when he was eating cooked food and always forget to put it in. 

Here is one analysis.
Gaia Research - Kelp / Seaweed
Another and there are several more algae listed on ND.
Nutrition Facts and Analysis for Seaweed, kelp, raw

I find he is low in magnesium for one thing in his raw diet, it is adequate but not optimal. This analysis shows kelp has .213000% magnesium which comes to 231 mg per 100 grams of dry kelp. A spoonful might be 4-5 grams offering 57 mg of magnesium. That is pretty good, I will go for that. ND shows 33 mg for a wet ounce, okay match up.

Another element he is low in is manganese. 0.123500% manganese or 123 mg per 100 grams perhaps 30 mg per spoonful. Way too high, he needs about 1 mg per day. This number doesn't go along with ND analysis at all though. That shows 0.1 mg Mn.

I recently redid his numbers and I think he needs more potassium than he is currently getting. This source shows 1.280000& or 1280 mg per 100 grams, I think 320 mg would be a very nice addition to his diet. ND shows only 25 mg per wet ounce.

Zinc is low in his diet despite all the red meat. 0.003516% comes to 3.516 mg per 100 grams. 0.6 mg isn't enough. No good! Have to stick to the pills I have.

Perhaps I will get out the jar and put a bit on his food. Whole wild raw prey may provide all his needs but that isn't what I am feeding, is it?

Max just has weepy eyes if he gets into grain, no allergies. He is a senior dog who had a number of mild seizures when he was a young adult and I feel better if I cross the t's and dot the i's especially as he gets only 1.6% of his actual weight per day.


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## SerenityFL (Sep 28, 2010)

Re: Ash

When I worked for a vet, for a short while, I was told to look for pet food that had minimal ash....now you're saying they need ash? 

Sigh....

When I first came here to this forum, it was a breath of fresh air. So many helpful, friendly people, so much information, a good couple of laughs...I really looked forward to coming here.

Lately I've been seeing quite a few posts that seem to be nothing more than hostile releases and I wonder why the need to do so. 

Please, we all love our pets. We all try to do what we can to give them the best life. Insinuations that we are not doing so is really hurtful and frankly? Ticks me off. 

I have to hear enough garbage advice from people out in the world who all think they know the best way to train and feed dogs, (and this ranges from beating the dogs in to submission to letting the dogs roam free and do what they want...learn the hard way, to telling me that this pet food is wrong, that pet food is wrong, you'll kill your dogs feeding them chicken bones, you'll give your dogs salmonella, e-coli and worms by feeding them raw meat, you'll kill your dogs if you give them pork, dogs have been domesticated and are not wolves and cannot survive like wolves can, wolves don't live long in the wild....on and on and on) and I'm about sick to death of people telling me that what I have chosen after days and days and days and DAYS, hour after hour of reading and research is dead wrong, I'm going to kill my dogs, I don't care about my dogs, I'm abusing my dogs, etc.

There is no scientific data to prove one way or another if raw feeding is good or bad. (Not that I could find and if someone does have it, please, point me in the right direction, I'd LOVE to read it.) What we do have are thousands upon thousands upon thousands of years of dogs/wolves eating a certain way. What we do have is dog anatomy to study.

Based on those facts, we then make a decision, what we like to call an "informed" decision. In the end, it's all opinion and you cannot debate an opinion. You may only debate the facts. Unless FACTS are provided, there is no debate. It's just arguing. And I'm very curious why such a happy, helpful place has been full of arguments lately. What is the point of that?!


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## RawFedDogs (Jun 16, 2008)

I've had enough of the bickering I've seen in the last few days in this thread and a few others. It is going to stop now or I'm going to start handing out 7 day time outs. We all SHOULD be adults and able to carry on a discussion without being provocative. Let's all start acting our age.


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## jdatwood (Apr 13, 2009)

meh, nevermind... it's not worth my time


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## Doc (Jan 17, 2009)

How did I manage to stay out of this rumble ..... I must be getting soft in my old age. LOL


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## Guest (Oct 11, 2010)

On the subject of kelp. Vital Essentials premade raw diet includes kelp:

BEEF INGREDIENTS
Beef, beef tripe, beef lung, ground beef bone, beef liver, beef heart, beef kidney, *dried organic kelp*, zinc sulfate, manganese sulfate, calcium carbonate, copper sulfate, ferrous sulfate, sodium selenite, calcium iodate, cobalt sulfate, choline chloride, dl-alpha tocopherol acetate (vitamin E), niacin, calcium pantothenate, ascorbic acid, vitamin A supplement, vitamin B12 supplement, thiamine mononitrate, riboflavin, vitamin D supplement, folic acid, pyridoxine hydrochloride, biotin. 

This is the first I've seen of kelp being added to a premade raw diet and I'm sure there's a reason for it, but what the reason is, I do not know. 

Web site: Vital Essentials – Natural 100% raw pet food diet for dogs and cats.


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## Animal Quackers (Jul 10, 2010)

I found this:

Foods rich in Iodine mineral

You will have to consider the source...and although kelp may have the HIGHEST levels of iodine, it does appear that if you feed your dogs fish or eggs on a regular basis, your dogs should receive adequate amounts of iodine. 

Whew! This makes me feel better!


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