# Artemis, Innova or Karma and Why?



## 420 (Jun 6, 2011)

I have a 4 year old Silky Terrier named Buddy who has been eating Artemis his whole life and he loves it. 

I recently became Vegan and have since realized that his dog food is not organic. In my search for a USDA certified organic dog food, I came up with Karma. has anyone heard of this and do you have any feedback for us?
Holistic Dog Food and Dog Treats for Enhanced Pet Food Nutrition – Karma Organic Food for Dogs

Out of tons of positive reviews, I am leaning toward Karma, however found this one negative review and was curious as to your thoughts on this, is it valid and if so, why?



> "Dog food adviser saif this food is 61% carbs...that is wayyyy too high, dogs need protein, not sugar which is what carbs are...and they have changed manufacturers, going to be processed by one of the big guys which is always trouble."


Read more: Karma Organic Dry Dog Food Reviews | Buzzillions.com

Thank you so very much for your valuable time and energy.

Namaste <3


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## Liz (Sep 27, 2010)

Personally we feed raw but when I did feed kibble we fed grain free as dogs do not process grain, fruits or veggies (unless pulped and then not much). I do not like giving them stuff they can use and don't need plus all these extra items are just things that could cause allergic reactions. Costco has a grain Free food (Nature's Domain) and there are many good grain free foods out there.


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## 420 (Jun 6, 2011)

I don't want to feed my dog Genetically Modified Organisms, antibiotics, growth hormones or any of the other things killing off half the world today. 

Can you be a little more specific, other than don't feed him grains and to buy food at Costco?

I would be so grateful, thank you.

Costco doesn't even understand what GMO is, nor do they care, it's all about selling as much of anything as they can.

I want my dog to eat as healthy as I do and don't care about the cost, only about his health.



> Personally we feed raw but when I did feed kibble we fed grain free as dogs do not process grain, fruits or veggies (unless pulped and then not much). I do not like giving them stuff they can use and don't need plus all these extra items are just things that could cause allergic reactions. Costco has a grain Free food (Nature's Domain) and there are many good grain free foods out there.


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## Nani (Apr 14, 2010)

420 said:


> I want my dog to eat as healthy as I do and don't care about the cost, only about his health.


That is awesome!!!! 
You should get your dog off kibble cause organic or not that is not how nature intended dogs or ANY animal to be fed. 
I only feed my dogs and cats food that I know what it is for example when you look at a kibble it is a small brown blob. When you look at a drumstick or a rack of pork ribs you not only know what it is you also have the ability to choose where said meat and bone comes from. A local organic farm would be best. Everyone on this forum is very excited about feeding our pets the very best. I know not a lot about kibble but feel free to pick my brain about raw! 
And welcome!


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## 420 (Jun 6, 2011)

Thank you Nani for giving me even more insight into this analysis. It may seem that raw is the way to go, however isn't that all refrigerated and soft, and if so, what happens if the careless stock boy lets the refrigerated food thaw out and it rots, prior to me getting it and feeding it to my dog? 

I like the kibbles for two reasons; it won't spoil during shipping/storing/distributing and it helps to keep his teeth and gums healthier because the hard nuggets break off into smaller hard pieces, which brush across the teeth during chewing, knocking off plaque and other things caught in and growing on, the teeth. 

Buddy has a recessed lower right front fang, which never fully developed, leaving half of it and the root, stuck lower into the jawbone. This makes it hard for him to chew bones, play tug of war or anything requiring chomp down power and hold, on that side. For this reason, I figured it would be best to keep him on dry food, as to get some of the things from his teeth and gums that we can't reach with a toothbrush, which happens once every day or two. Three different vets said it was best to leave it there, if it wasn't hurting him, which it is not. They all agreed that there was a slight possibility we could lose him under anesthesia, and was highly likely the jawbone would break, trying to pull it out.

Now that you have a little more data on Buddy, hopefully you guys can educate me on this and steer me in the right direction. I just read a post on here that said something about Naturapet getting bought out by a big corp, who would destroy the food long term, however am unable to find the source to what she is referring to. Any ideas?

Thanks everyone.



> That is awesome!!!!
> You should get your dog off kibble cause organic or not that is not how nature intended dogs or ANY animal to be fed.
> I only feed my dogs and cats food that I know what it is for example when you look at a kibble it is a small brown blob. When you look at a drumstick or a rack of pork ribs you not only know what it is you also have the ability to choose where said meat and bone comes from. A local organic farm would be best. Everyone on this forum is very excited about feeding our pets the very best. I know not a lot about kibble but feel free to pick my brain about raw!
> And welcome!


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## Nani (Apr 14, 2010)

420 said:


> Thank you Nani for giving me even more insight into this analysis. It may seem that raw is the way to go, however isn't that all refrigerated and soft, and if so, what happens if the careless stock boy lets the refrigerated food thaw out and it rots, prior to me getting it and feeding it to my dog?
> 
> I like the kibbles for two reasons; it won't spoil during shipping/storing/distributing and it helps to keep his teeth and gums healthier because the hard nuggets break off into smaller hard pieces, which brush across the teeth during chewing, knocking off plaque and other things caught in and growing on, the teeth.
> 
> ...


Glad you are willing to do what's best for Buddy. Ok first off dogs digest food way faster than humans so the meat that might be spoiled (which you can learn how to tell by look and smell if it's bad) won't cause him any trouble.

Kibble can totally spoil in heat and kibble cleans teeth as well as cereal cleans our teeth!  I believe that kibble is the reason for most plaque in the first place.There is nothing better in this world for a dog's teeth than a good bone to chew on. My two oldest animals are 10 and 11 and they have never had a dental and the vets are amazed at their pearly whites.

Luckily for Buddy he will use his molars to crunch up bone, the "fangs" or canines are used for tearing hunks of meat off of bones 

My two biggest problems with kibble is that; 
1. It is so far from what they are built to eat. What animals besides humans were designed to eat cooked food let alone food that's been so processed? Would you like to eat a complete meal in a biscuit your whole life coming from who knows where?
2. It is devoid of moisture. Raw fed dogs drink way less water cause they are getting so much from there food. Especially with cats it can cause all sorts of problems.

I could go on but I will digress into my little cave. :smile:


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## CorgiPaws (Mar 31, 2009)

Well first off, :welcome: to the forum! 



420 said:


> Thank you Nani for giving me even more insight into this analysis. It may seem that raw is the way to go, however isn't that all refrigerated and soft, and if so, what happens if the careless stock boy lets the refrigerated food thaw out and it rots, prior to me getting it and feeding it to my dog?


There are many ways to feed raw.
* BARF*, which includes the use of raw meaty bones, cooked grains, and fruits and veggies in both raw and cooked form. It is largely based on the misconception that dogs need plant matter in their diet. 
*Pre-Mixed/ground*- Things like Stella & Chewy's, Primal, Bravo, Nature's Variety, etc. They are generally some variation of meat, bones or bone meal, organ, veggies, fruits, and sometimes grains. Think of them as "raw kibble" in the sense that they are slightly less processed than kibble but in general have similar ingredients. 
*Prey Model Raw*- Meat, bones, and organs from a variety of animals, in roughly an 80% meat, 10% bones, and 10% organs, but that will vary from dog to dog. It is based on the fact that dogs are in fact carnivores and are designed through and through to digest and utilize these foods. This is the form of raw feeding that largely dominates this forum. 



420 said:


> I like the kibbles for two reasons; it won't spoil during shipping/storing/distributing and it helps to keep his teeth and gums healthier because the hard nuggets break off into smaller hard pieces, which brush across the teeth during chewing, knocking off plaque and other things caught in and growing on, the teeth.


These are both very common misconceptions the general public has about kibble. 
Kibble can and will easily spoil if not kept in the right storage conditions, which is generally an airtight container in a cool, dry place. I don't think that sitting on freight trucks in 100 degree weather for days at a time is hardly considered a cool, dry place. 
Kibble is one of the worst things for canine oral health. While many dog food companies (and vets!) would like you to believe that those cereal-like chunks are hard at work scraping the nasties off the teeth, forgo your toothbrush for a week, and instead eat a cup and a half of dry cereal like Fruity Pebbles morning and night and tell me how minty fresh your mouth is feeling after those seven days! The texture of kibble, much like cereal, actually turns rather mushy and sticky when mixed with the saliva and sticks to the gums and surface of the teeth. After your dog eats, check out the crevices of his mouth, and surely you will find kibble mush in there. The absolute best thing for oral health is raw meaty bones, that really work at scraping even built up tartar off the gumline and helps restore oral health. 



420 said:


> Buddy has a recessed lower right front fang, which never fully developed, leaving half of it and the root, stuck lower into the jawbone. This makes it hard for him to chew bones, play tug of war or anything requiring chomp down power and hold, on that side. For this reason, I figured it would be best to keep him on dry food, as to get some of the things from his teeth and gums that we can't reach with a toothbrush, which happens once every day or two.


There's many dogs here with compromised teeth that are successfully eating raw. The good news is that it is the back molars that do most of the work in raw feeding, as those are the scissor-like teeth that crush the bones. The front teeth are generally used for tearing large chunks of meat off the bone, which come in handy if you are feeding incredibly large chunks, but it is an issue easily avoided if need be. There's a wolf hybrid on here missing a molar, and a doxie with only a handful of teeth here tackling raw just fine. 



420 said:


> Now that you have a little more data on Buddy, hopefully you guys can educate me on this and steer me in the right direction. I just read a post on here that said something about Naturapet getting bought out by a big corp, who would destroy the food long term, however am unable to find the source to what she is referring to. Any ideas?
> 
> Thanks everyone.


This is in reference to Proctor & Gamble buying out Natura, which makes several brands, Karma being one of them. TO date, there is NO evidence that P&G has or will deteriorate the quality of the foods being produced under the Natura label. 


Karma is incredibly grain heavy, and I would stay away from it. Carbs are the root of MANY major health problems in canines and felines and should be kept as minimal as possible in the overall diet. Organic or not, grains do not have a place in a carnivore's diet.

As much as CostCo may not care about GMOs, commercial pet food companies do NOT care about our pets as much as we might like to believe. I'm not saying they're the absolute devil here, but at the end of the day, it's all about the bottom line. 

You seem to be a pretty health conscious person, and that is awesome! We all know that processed foods are in fact a large contributor to obesity and an array of other health problems in humans, and that eating whole, fresh foods is ideal. It is easy then to place this same way of thinking to our pets, in that fresh, whole foods would be most ideal. Carnivore, Omnivore, Herbivore, no matter what a species is, a diet made largely of something so processed it is in fact of NO resemblance to the ingredients therein can NOT be healthy, not for any species. 

Don't hesitate to post any questions. :biggrin:


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## 420 (Jun 6, 2011)

Wait, come back! I'll just follow you in, I'm not done with you yet. lol

This is what I need to hear, please continue, you cannot give me too much info and/or data, I am a scientist mind, therefore I am complete attention to detail and want all the info I can get on the subject, in order to make the ultimate proper choice.

After learning about Monsanto and GMO's and watching Food Incorporated, Food Matters, The Gerson Therapy and The Future of Our Food, I became Vegan and if Buddy could handle it, I'd make him Vegan too. However from what I gather, he needs meat in his diet for optimal dog health. I totally understand where you are coming from with him not being developed for a processed food based diet, so teach me more about raw food.

Do they make it USDA Certified Organic and if so, who is the best and why?

Thank you, thank you, thank you.

Sending you lots of love and positive energy through the Universe.

Namaste



> Glad you are willing to do what's best for Buddy. Ok first off dogs digest food way faster than humans so the meat that might be spoiled (which you can learn how to tell by look and smell if it's bad) won't cause him any trouble.
> 
> Kibble can totally spoil in heat and kibble cleans teeth as well as cereal cleans our teeth!  I believe that kibble is the reason for most plaque in the first place.There is nothing better in this world for a dog's teeth than a good bone to chew on. My two oldest animals are 10 and 11 and they have never had a dental and the vets are amazed at their pearly whites.
> 
> ...


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## Mollygirl (May 14, 2011)

I have had animals all my life and fed kibble most of my adult life. Growing up, our animals was fed scraps from our table, so my animals also got scraps and kibble. Later down my Johonna got diabetes and was told to stay away from "people food" and give only kibble. That was several years ago before researching on the computer became known to me and I did as my vet told me. She lived until 14 but in her last years she was slow, didn't move around much. I also realize now that we eat alot of pasta, noddles, rice and veggies, which she was getting as scraps. The night she went into a seizure and I thought she was dying, I had given her left over mac and cheese. I didn't know about raw, I always thought giving raw wasn't safe because of all the bacterial in it. I was also very scared at giving chicken and turkey as I had a Pekingese years ago, die in my arms because it was Thanksgiving and I had all this leftover turkey and I gave him a bone. He started choking and I was desperately trying to get the bone out of his throat. He died in my arms with my fingers down his throat. Within minutes I got the bone out but it was too late, so I never gave bones again.

I'm not an expert, I just want the very best for my 3 new dogs. After Johonna died, I didn't want any more dogs and I'm not going to go into how I got 3 dogs within months, I've already wrote it several times. But I feed raw because Molly has lots of skin allergies and after reading and reading, I've decided that it is the best for all my dogs. With meat you know what you are getting, with kibble, you have no idea what they are putting in it. All I know is my dogs are happy now, they follow me in the kitchen and sit waiting for their food. The puppies get there portion and run to their places to eat, growling at anything that comes near them. They love it. I can see it in their faces when they eat and they are satisfied. They are not sitting at the table begging for scraps. When I gave them kibble, they ate it without emotions, they only time they seemed to enjoy it was when I mixed a can of dog food in it and then they would eat the around the kibble to get all the can meat. I am also spending more time with them since I'm in there watching them eat and after they finish their chicken they come running back to me begging for more. I love watching them eat and it makes me happy to see them so excited about their food.

another plus to feeding raw is the poop. No more nasty big poops. They are so much smaller and dry up and crumble away within a day. I don't have poop staying in the yard for months and having to pick it up or stepping in it. And the gas, Molly had some bad gas, we had to get the air freshener out because it was so bad. She no longer has gas. And not to mention Meow Meows, our cat who would always throw up after eating and had runny nasty smelling poop. He eats raw chicken now and I haven't had to clean up any vomit from him and his poop is solid. He comes in there when the dogs gets fed to get his daily dose of chicken meat. I don't give him bones as he would not eat them and we still have kibble for the cats as the other cat will not touch raw and only eat kibble, but he doesn't have the problems like the other cat.

Like I said I'm no expert, I just started raw a few weeks ago but so far I really like what I'm seeing and I tell everyone that I'm feeding raw now. Also my dachshund's coat is so shiny. I would do lots of reading on this forum, look at all the pictures, those that feed raw have beautiful dogs.

I also wanted to add about the careless stockboy, this meat is bought for human comsuption so if it was rotting it would not be sold. And dogs can handle it more than humans can. Think about if they were in the wild, they either killed or ate what they found dead. And think about how they make kibble, it is dry and hard and how do they get that meat hard and dry, what kind of meat do they put in it? And does the meat get refigerated without spoiling in the process?


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## SerenityFL (Sep 28, 2010)

420 said:


> ...I became Vegan and if Buddy could handle it, I'd make him Vegan too. However from what I gather, he needs meat in his diet for optimal dog health. I totally understand where you are coming from with him not being developed for a processed food based diet, so teach me more about raw food.


Hello and welcome to the forum.

To start, I wanted to point out that of course Costco doesn't know or care about GMO. The stockboy is there to stock shelves, they are not experts in everything that Costco sells. Even in places like Petco, the people really do not know nutrition. I used to work in one of those places, the "training" is a joke and mainly you get peoples opinions, nothing based on facts.

Now, I would highly suggest that you start off by reading the following because it seems to me that if you ever even considered turning your dog vegan, you have some things to understand before you begin:

Dogs Are Carnivors And Need Meat

Scroll to where you see, "Proof A Dog Is A Carnivore"

Once you have done that, I highly suggest you then read:

How To Get Started Feeding A Prey Model Raw Diet

No grains, no processed garbage, all natural, you can get organic meat if you'd like, etc. Your pets coats will look better, their teeth will look better, their eyes, overall health and attitude will be better.

You be a vegan but your dog is a carnivore and must be fed as such for optimal health.

Good luck. And don't forget to browse around the "Raw Feeding" section where you can find just about any answer to any question you have. If you can't, ask. Ask anything and everything. You will get the assistance and good advice.


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## SpooOwner (Oct 1, 2010)

There are a lot of veg/vegan raw feeders on this forum, myself included. Even a low quality raw diet will be less deleterious to the environment than a kibble (consider all the processing and transportation costs). And of course, if you're willing to pay $$$$, a raw diet can be done very ethically and with low environmental impact (all local sourced, cage free, pasture raised, etc.). Most of us settle for something in between.

If you want to stick with a kibble, then Champion (Orijen or Acana) is your best bet. Organic ingredients, pasture-raised, no chemicals.


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## cast71 (Sep 16, 2010)

Not only is Orijen and Acana free range organic, It's one of the few that use human grade and do not use or denature meats. It contains more meat, less carbs, and is cheaper than karma. I totally agree on not feeding genetically Modified Organisms and animals fed antibiotics and growth hormones:smile:


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## 1605 (May 27, 2009)

We have been feeding our German Shorthaired Pointer EVO Turkey/Chicken (grainless) for a couple of years now & we are pleased with the results.

On his former feed he always looked like he was starving, even though he was up to 4 cups/day. And talk about "output"! 

With the EVO:

He filled out with MUSCLE.
His output went WAY down.
His coat is wonderfully soft & shiny.
It supports his high energy style on 2 1/2 cups a day.

I'd just like to remind the people participating in this thread that it's in the Dry & Canned Dog Food section & that the OP asked about kibble, not raw.


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## Caty M (Aug 13, 2010)

Cast- I don't think Orijen/Acana are organic.. free range yes, but free range can still mean a huge chicken barn with 10,000+ chickens in it with a 5x5 patch of grass outside that they have access to. Unless you actually go to the farm it came from, you have no idea how 'free range' it actually is.

I feed raw and 80% of what I feed is pasture raised, grass fed meat. I get a free source of organic quail which helps. It is much better for both the environment and your dog..


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## SerenityFL (Sep 28, 2010)

SubMariner said:


> I'd just like to remind the people participating in this thread that it's in the Dry & Canned Dog Food section & that the OP asked about kibble, not raw.


She asked about raw, hence my post.



420 said:


> ... so teach me more about raw food...


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## MollyWoppy (Mar 19, 2010)

If you would prefer to stay with a kibble, may I suggest having a look at Orijen, (Champion Foods) in Canada. In my view it is the best kibble out there. I don't know if its organic or not, but have a read up on their web site, their ingredients are really top notch. Plus where they source most of their ingredients fresh, locally. 
I feed my kitten Orijen and thats what my dog ate when she was on kibble, it was the best I could find, organic brands included.

ETA: whoops, sorry, obviously hadn't updated my browser, so didn't realise that Orijen has already been covered. Sorry!


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## Tobi (Mar 18, 2011)

Everybody already covered the basis, it's fantastic that you want the absolute best for your furry friend!!! and it's clearly visible! it's also fantastic that you have a very open mind!!! 

:welcome: to the forum and I hope to keep seeing you around!!!

Also.. if price isn't a concern, this is what i would feed mine if it was going to be on raw.

Natural Range Of Premium Pet-food Products - Ziwipeak - Natural New Zealand Pet Nutrition
It is very pricey but it is about the best kibble you will find. Next Orijen, and Evo.


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## MollyWoppy (Mar 19, 2010)

Tobi said:


> Everybody already covered the basis, it's fantastic that you want the absolute best for your furry friend!!! and it's clearly visible! it's also fantastic that you have a very open mind!!!
> 
> :welcome: to the forum and I hope to keep seeing you around!!!
> 
> ...


Yeah, you are right! How on earth could I forget Ziwipeak, from the best country in the world :biggrin::biggrin::biggrin: (don't anyone DARE say a word, ok?). 
No-one carries Ziwipeak in this neck of the woods, but I still buy it when I'm up north, as a standby, for treats and if I have to leave my pup with others.
If it was readily available here, I'd definitely do my best to get Windy the cat to consent to eating it too.

And, how rude of me, I forgot to welcome you to the forum as well. Hi!!


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## whiteleo (Sep 7, 2008)

Also, 420, you don't tell where you are from, as I feed 90% grass fed, antibiotic/hormone free and that is all mostly from my co-op and prices are pretty darn good.


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## Maxy24 (Mar 5, 2011)

I do think raw would be an awesome idea. That way you can buy the same organic meats you buy for yourself and feed them to your dog. If you do go with kibble just remember to actually read the ingredients, just because it says organic on the label doesn't mean all the ingredients are actually organic. 

Here's a helpful link (remember it is a list of organic food, not necessarily GOOD food. It can be organic and still be terrible for your dog):
The Dog Food Project - Organic Dog Foods


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## monkeys23 (Dec 8, 2010)

Another vote for prey model raw here. You can easily support local meat producers. :smile:

If I had to go back to kibble it would be Orijen or the four Acana grain free formulas.


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## Serendipity (Aug 13, 2010)

Kibble definitely does clean teeth; I use elk antlers and I just started giving my dog raw chicken leg quarters a few times a week for dental hygiene. 

Karma is very low in meat...I would recommend Orijen, made by Champion Petfoods. While the food isn't organic, Champion uses grass fed, free range meats and wild-caught fish and has a much higher meat content. All three Orijen formulas are in my kibble rotation. 

If you can, raw is also another option to consider.

All the mainly organic kibbles I've seen are grain-based. 

EDIT: Whoops, I meant "kibble does not clean teeth."


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## schtuffy (May 17, 2010)

I do believe Orijen is not certified organic, but they do incorporate some organic ingredients. When I used to feed kibble, I fed Orijen, and like many others here, I highly recommend it. I am not vegan/vegetarian myself, but I do try to eat mostly organic foods, so I understand where you are coming from. Even though it is not USDA certified organic, I feel that the quality of their ingredients make up for it.

However, now I feed raw...mainly organic or grass fed meat if possible. So my kibble recommendation: Orijen...but if you want to learn more about raw, come to the raw section and we will be happy to help :smile:


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## Nani (Apr 14, 2010)

420 said:


> Wait, come back! I'll just follow you in, I'm not done with you yet. lol
> 
> This is what I need to hear, please continue, you cannot give me too much info and/or data, I am a scientist mind, therefore I am complete attention to detail and want all the info I can get on the subject, in order to make the ultimate proper choice.
> 
> ...


Stretch..just crawled back out... lol I would also suggest reading through a lot of the posts on the raw section and of course any q's just ask. Do you mean raw or kibble for usda cert org? Cause I know not of kibble but you can definitely buy organic meat. Grass fed is the best. 
And I totally get ya about how scary it is thinking about where our food comes from!!! I wanna little farm so I can be self-sufficient!!!


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## 420 (Jun 6, 2011)

Thank you for all the wonderful comments and information everyone, I am truly grateful. 

Have had this window open for a couple of days and will leave it open until I have time to fully read and reply to everyone.

Namaste


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## cast71 (Sep 16, 2010)

bishopthesheltie said:


> Cast- I don't think Orijen/Acana are organic.. free range yes, but free range can still mean a huge chicken barn with 10,000+ chickens in it with a 5x5 patch of grass outside that they have access to. Unless you actually go to the farm it came from, you have no idea how 'free range' it actually is.
> .


Thats true, but it goes the other way as well. The are plenty of farms by me that are organic but not certified. The food is still organic even though it has no label and its cheaper :0) champion states its local trusted sources, so they probably use some sort of standards.


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## 420 (Jun 6, 2011)

Still have not been able to make time to read and reply to everyone yet, almost there.

Just wanted to post the reply from Natura Pet, for further analysis.



> 6/6/11
> 
> Dear 420,
> 
> ...


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

420 said:


> I have a 4 year old Silky Terrier named Buddy who has been eating Artemis his whole life and he loves it.
> 
> I recently became Vegan and have since realized that his dog food is not organic. In my search for a USDA certified organic dog food, I came up with Karma. has anyone heard of this and do you have any feedback for us?
> Holistic Dog Food and Dog Treats for Enhanced Pet Food Nutrition – Karma Organic Food for Dogs
> ...



i feed raw, BUT....if i wanted to feed a high quality food to my dog without going raw, i'd have to order ziwipeak online.....other than chicory inulin, the ingredients are just what you want...

i have to disagree about costco...yes, they do care...and if you research them, i think you'll change your mind.

on the other hand, the employee who didn't get enough sleep one day might not seal the bag correctly and you've just bought a spoiled salmonella filled bag of dry food commercially processed.

you want your dog to have organic...then go to the store where they sell organic fresh meat and buy organic for your dog. feed him raw because you're a vegan and the principles of being vegan apply to carnivores in that the food should be fresh and in its natural form.

it is not difficult to feed raw and you can wear gloves....if you don't want to touch the meat...as a vegan, i can understand your reluctance to have it in your home...but kosher Jews also keep foods separate, so it's a matter of having to refrigerators..one for you and a small one for the dog and a separate space in the freezer for him.....

not only is it doable, it's a better solution for your dog than karma, which probably IS 61% carbs..and has things in it that dogs simply don't need....dogs are not vegan, as you know. they are carnivores through and through.


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## PDXdogmom (Jun 30, 2010)

My son is vegan, but realizes that his dog needs meat protein. So, something you may want to consider is the The Honest Kitchen line of dehydrated dog food. It comes in boxes. You measure out the appropriate amount and add warm water and stir and wait 10 min. Some of the formulas suggest you add some fresh cooked meat. Many of the HK ingredients are free-range, or organic or fair-trade. My dogs have done well with the HK Thrive formula in the past which uses quinoa as the starch - which I'm sure as a vegan you realize is one of the healthiest and most ancient of grains (although isn't in the same classification as modern grains). A Message from the President | The Honest Kitchen

If you really want to feed kibble, then you may want to consider Organix by Castor & Pollux which has lots of organic ingredients: ORGANIX Adult Dog Food | www.castorpolluxpet.com


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

PDXdogmom said:


> My son is vegan, but realizes that his dog needs meat protein. So, something you may want to consider is the The Honest Kitchen line of dehydrated dog food. It comes in boxes. You measure out the appropriate amount and add warm water and stir and wait 10 min. Some of the formulas suggest you add some fresh cooked meat. Many of the HK ingredients are free-range, or organic or fair-trade. My dogs have done well with the HK Thrive formula in the past which uses quinoa as the starch - which I'm sure as a vegan you realize is one of the healthiest and most ancient of grains (although isn't in the same classification as modern grains). A Message from the President | The Honest Kitchen
> 
> If you really want to feed kibble, then you may want to consider Organix by Castor & Pollux which has lots of organic ingredients: ORGANIX Adult Dog Food | www.castorpolluxpet.com


dehydrated honest kitchen...i'm looking at one of their recipes...haddock and whiting are throw away fishes....humans may eat them but they don't have the nutritional punch that mackerel, sardines and anchovies have.....i'm sorry, but sweet potatoes and cranberries? and organic coconut? apples? alfalfa? a known allergen in people AND animals? 

i can't stop nor do i wish to.....what people feed their dogs...but before anyone buys a product, read the ingredients, think about what sugar from apples and coconut do to a dog's teeth.....and the garlic they don't need..and the insipid fish (used, by the way, because it is inexpensive)...and ask yourself if this is really the best thing for your dog.

if veggies are wanted, then look at darwin's dog food - look at ziwipeak...but please don't get caught up in marketing..


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## PDXdogmom (Jun 30, 2010)

magicre said:


> dehydrated honest kitchen...i'm looking at one of their recipes...haddock and whiting are throw away fishes....humans may eat them but they don't have the nutritional punch that mackerel, sardines and anchovies have.....i'm sorry, but sweet potatoes and cranberries? and organic coconut? apples? alfalfa? a known allergen in people AND animals?
> 
> i can't stop nor do i wish to.....what people feed their dogs...but before anyone buys a product, read the ingredients, think about what sugar from apples and coconut do to a dog's teeth.....and the garlic they don't need..and the insipid fish (used, by the way, because it is inexpensive)...and ask yourself if this is really the best thing for your dog.
> 
> if veggies are wanted, then look at darwin's dog food - look at ziwipeak...but please don't get caught up in marketing..


You really don't have to be so nasty-sounding in your reply. I'm sure your opinion could be expressed with a little more civility.

That said, my post said I had used the HK Thrive formula. That is the best of their formulas as far as I am concerned and doesn't contain most of the ingredients that caused you to freak out in your post.

Dehydrated free-range chicken, organic fair-trade quinoa, sweet potatoes, spinach, parsley, organic kelp, rosemary, tricalcium phosphate, choline chloride, zinc amino acid chelate, vitamin D3 supplement, vitamin E supplement, potassium iodide, potassium chloride, iron amino acid chelate, copper amino acid chelate.

And as far as Darwin's and Ziwipeak that you mention - they do their fair share of marketing also.


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

PDXdogmom said:


> You really don't have to be so nasty-sounding in your reply. I'm sure your opinion could be expressed with a little more civility.
> 
> That said, my post said I had used the Thrive formula which has the following ingredients - none of which I personally find problematic. I chose Thrive because I thought it was the best of the formulas. You'll see that most of those ingredients that has caused you to freak out in your post, are not in the Thrive formula.
> 
> Dehydrated free-range chicken, organic fair-trade quinoa, sweet potatoes, spinach, parsley, organic kelp, rosemary, tricalcium phosphate, choline chloride, zinc amino acid chelate, vitamin D3 supplement, vitamin E supplement, potassium iodide, potassium chloride, iron amino acid chelate, copper amino acid chelate.


my intent is not to be nasty but to inform. if you feel i was nasty, then i will not post anymore in this section.


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## CorgiPaws (Mar 31, 2009)

PDXdogmom- magicre is a long standing member of the forum, and I am certain that if you have followed her posts through her time here you would see that she is not a mean, malicious person, and probably would have more accurately interpreted her intent of the post on Honest Kitchen foods. :biggrin: I'm certain she meant absolutely no harm or for anyone to take it personal. Many many of our members are blunt, and sometimes painfully honest. Everything she said about the Honest kitchen was very accurate, and spot on. Those sugary ingredients are downright terrible. I wouldn't recommend against The Honest kitchen if someone was absolutely set on a commercial food, but prey model raw is leaps and bounds better, by eliminating all that plant matter, carbs, and sugar. That is not just re's opinion, that is a fact based on the nutritional and dietary needs of canines.


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

PDXdogmom said:


> You really don't have to be so nasty-sounding in your reply. I'm sure your opinion could be expressed with a little more civility.
> 
> That said, my post said I had used the HK Thrive formula. That is the best of their formulas as far as I am concerned and doesn't contain most of the ingredients that caused you to freak out in your post.
> 
> ...


no. actually, i'm not nasty. sorry for not responding to the formula you're using.

but blunt? yes. painfully blunt? absolutely. it was my bad that i made the mistake in thinking that you actually wanted to know what was right or wrong with an ingredient from a certain product.

everyone has marketing....i don't dispute that, but there are other manufacturers who make a combination that is more suitable for a dog...that doesn't use throwaway items....and the fish formula that i was taking apart, does.

as to the formula you are using....

Dehydrated free-range chicken, organic fair-trade quinoa, sweet potatoes, spinach, parsley, organic kelp, rosemary, tricalcium phosphate, choline chloride, zinc amino acid chelate, vitamin D3 supplement, vitamin E supplement, potassium iodide, potassium chloride, iron amino acid chelate, copper amino acid chelate.

again, sweet potatoes....- sugar.....spinach - gout in humans. gout in dogs. too rich. and non digestible in dogs. same with parsley. kelp? there are questions as to whether or not it is beneficial...i tend to think it is and so i'm on that side of the fence with it. rosemary? dogs need seasoning? they don't benefit from the herbs....even with the properties besides flavour. quinoa.....is a surprise because it's not quite a grain, and it has protein. i used to use it when i cooked for my dogs...which begs the question, why are sweet potatoes needed if quinoa is used?
potassium iodide and potassium chloride are salts...dogs definitely do not need salt and that will tax the kidney....

it's not the worst product out there...but certainly it is not the best. 

i'm sorry if you took offense....i've been studying ingredients and nutrition for five or six years because of my own downward spiral in health.....and i also fed kibble to my dogs......until i couldn't find the right dog food with ingredients that met my standards.

and then the big daddy of it all...processing....there is nothing about dehydrated chicken that would sway my opinion that raw or cooked is best, because all of the water has been removed.....the fact that you add water back in doesn't change my mind that the properties of the chicken have been altered.

i know you want what is best for your dog and i would want what is best for your dog..but i will not presume to tell you not to feed fruit and veggies..that's my way of feeding....

what i did do was break down the ingredients for you (wrong food, i admit)...but consider this..if they are willing to use haddock and whiting as their go to fish....then how much of a quality outfit are they? my grandfather and i used to use whiting as bait fish.

so, sorry your feelings got hurt, and honestly, it bothered me all night that you felt i was attacking, so of course, you had to be snarky right back.

let's call it even and i will consider that you do not want my opinion.....


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## PDXdogmom (Jun 30, 2010)

*but blunt? yes. painfully blunt? absolutely. it was my bad that i made the mistake in thinking that you actually wanted to know what was right or wrong with an ingredient from a certain product.
* posted by magicre

There is a fine line between being blunt and making sarcastic tinged statements that come across that you possess the absolute truth in this matter. I've always found that people will thoughtfully consider other's opinions more when they're offered as such - opinions. 

I routinely welcome other's opinions on a few other dog forums. Fortunately, for the most part, most of the posters don't present themselves as having the final truth in nutritional matters. Strong opinions abound, of course. But if all nutritional matters were so black and white as you seem to perceive them to be, then there would be little point to dog food forums at all. 

I applaud your interest and personal quest in both human and canine nutrition for the last five or six years. It truly is a fascinating subject. I've come across a number of others on other dog forums who also have intensely made it a serious focus. But here is the key - they haven't all arrived at the exact same conclusions as you. Hence, my reference to your remarks being "the truth as you perceive it".


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

nutrition is not about opinion. nutrition is fact.

sweet potatoes are a starch. they contain sugar. dogs cannot digest them. 

read orijen's white paper. says it right there and in many other publications.

when i have an opinion, i state it as such. and when i consider someone's opinion, if i think they are wrong, since my opinion was asked, i can only presume that the poster wants to hear my opinion. you asked about thrive. i told you my opinion. you don't have to read my post nor do you have to stop feeding your dog what i consider a low level food that is harmful to your dog.

but apples, if you read the nutritional info on an item, has lots of sugar in it, sugar rots dogs' teeth.
that's a fact. ask any veterinary dentist, like dr. tom lonsdale.

i'm not saying don't feed kibble, or don't home cook...but if you are going to feed kibble or home cook or use a commercial product, then at least do the research, for this is what you're feeding your cherished best friend....

what i stated to you was not tinged with sarcasm. you haven't heard me be sarcastic and this is not the venue for sarcasm.

i applaud that you want the best for you dog. unfortunately, what you've chosen isn't the best. and i am truly sorry that it bothers you to hear that it is only a middle of the road product....

there are people who truly want to know. you, apparently, are not one of them so i am out of here. now THAT is tinged with sarcasm. peace out.


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## PDXdogmom (Jun 30, 2010)

magicre said:


> *nutrition is not about opinion. nutrition is fact.*
> 
> sweet potatoes are a starch. they contain sugar. dogs cannot digest them.
> 
> ...


Your post shows a few inaccuracies that with more detailed reading of my posts you might have picked up on.

1. I did not ask for your opinion on HK Thrive in my post #31. I merely listed the ingredients in the formula because you seemed to have painted all the HK formulas with one broad brush stroke. I merely wanted to make you aware that there were some significant differences among the formulas.

2. My post #29 stated: "My dogs have done well with the HK Thrive in the past". "In the past" indicates that I am not currently feeding it. I do rotational feeding with my dogs.

3. And lastly, your statement that "Nutrition is not about opinion. Nutrition is fact." is rather short-sighted IMO. What was thought to be nutritional fact in the 1800s, or 1950, 1990 or even a few years ago is often found to be not entirely accurate (or at least not the whole story) at a later date. It's a constantly evolving field of discovery which make it all so interesting. Plus when have you ever seen a group of nutritionists all be on the same page about what is fact.


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## CorgiPaws (Mar 31, 2009)

PDXdogmom said:


> Your post shows a few inaccuracies that with more detailed reading of my posts you might have picked up on.
> 
> 1. I did not ask for your opinion on HK Thrive in my post #31. I merely listed the ingredients in the formula because you seemed to have painted all the HK formulas with one broad brush stroke. I merely wanted to make you aware that there were some significant differences among the formulas.
> 
> ...


You don't have to ask for opinions here, they come free with every posting. If you don't want feedback, be it opinion or fact, then don't post it. It's really that basic. That's what forums are for. We discuss, debate, prove, disprove, support, and analyze everything put on the table. 
Re is very accurate in that those ingredients ARE in fact unnecessary, and their sugar content can make them problem ingredients. That is a fact. Apples are sugary. Starches turn to sugar. Sugar is not good. Fact, fact, fact. 
Now, weather or not YOU use the product now really doesn't matter for the sake of discussion. It is a product thrown out on the table, therefore it will be discussed should anyone want to. Re wants to. :smile: There's really no need to take offense to that. Like I said before, if you were a bit more familiar with the member that you are upset with, you'd surely understand a bit better that she is NOT being mean in any way.


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## PDXdogmom (Jun 30, 2010)

PuppyPaws said:


> You don't have to ask for opinions here, they come free with every posting. If you don't want feedback, be it opinion or fact, then don't post it. It's really that basic. That's what forums are for. We discuss, debate, prove, disprove, support, and analyze everything put on the table.
> Re is very accurate in that those ingredients ARE in fact unnecessary, and their sugar content can make them problem ingredients. That is a fact. Apples are sugary. Starches turn to sugar. Sugar is not good. Fact, fact, fact.
> Now, weather or not YOU use the product now really doesn't matter for the sake of discussion. It is a product thrown out on the table, therefore it will be discussed should anyone want to. Re wants to. :smile: There's really no need to take offense to that. Like I said before, *if you were a bit more familiar with the member that you are upset with, you'd surely understand a bit better that she is NOT being mean in any way.*


*
*

I'm not upset nor have had my feelings hurt. I also well understand that on each forum there are usually a couple of posters that almost have an untouchable status among their members. That's the nature of forums.

But since "bluntness" seems to be the preferred mode of communicating here as cited by you and magicre, then I'll be blunt. Magicre's posts come across as extremely pompous and all-knowing. There are many other well-educated posters on forums who are mostly self-taught about nutrition matters as is Magicre. They don't all present themselves nor consider themselves to be the final arbitrators of nutritional facts. You could get a randomly selected group of nutritionists, researchers, vets or physicians, together in a room and never have them all be on the same page of the best approach and practices to nutrition. I happen to think that's exciting.

And to be perfectly clear, Magicre said "you asked about Thrive". I was setting the record straight that I had not asked about it - merely listed the formula ingredients. If some posters feel they want to give their own analysis on every single food and ingredient mentioned in everyone's posts, it's certainly a freedom they have as you point out.


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## CorgiPaws (Mar 31, 2009)

PDXdogmom said:


> [/B]
> 
> I'm not upset nor have had my feelings hurt. I also well understand that on each forum there are usually a couple of posters that almost have an untouchable status among their members. That's the nature of forums.
> 
> ...


There are plenty of people here with plenty of opinions. 

Fact: Apples, are full of sugar, and sugar rots dog's teeth and also contributes to many diseases, such as diabetes. 
Opinion: Apples are NOT a good food source for dogs. 
Opinion: Apples ARE a good food source for dogs. 

Now, in these two opinions, I see one that makes a whole lot of sense, based on the FACTS, and one that really makes no logical sense at all. So, while everyone in the world may have an opinion and those opinions will all be different, as educated individuals we must take the things we know, and make the best decisions based on that. When we learn more, we do better. 

It is Re's OPINION that certain ingredients should not be fed to dogs. She gets to that conclusion based on the FACTS about the ingredients and harmful effects that they can have. You don't like her opinion. That's fine. Take the facts that you know, and form your own. 

Of COURSE we all think we're right about a lot of things. Why do you feed the way you do? Because the knowledge you have tells you that's what is best for your animals within your means. Why do I feed the way I do? Because the knowledge I have tells me that it's the best for my animals within my means. Why does Re feed what she feeds? Because the knowledge she has tells her that it is the best for her animals within her means. And i guarantee you we all feed a little bit different. That's OK.


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## PDXdogmom (Jun 30, 2010)

PuppyPaws said:


> There are plenty of people here with plenty of opinions.
> 
> Fact: Apples, are full of sugar, and sugar rots dog's teeth and also contributes to many diseases, such as diabetes.
> Opinion: Apples are NOT a good food source for dogs.
> ...


I'm not quite sure why you're acting as magicre's spokesperson - really no way for me to know the relationships between posters and probably doesn't matter.

But I do not care to be misrepresented. I have not agreed or disagreed with any nutritional opinion expressed in this thread by magicre. It's rather baffling that both of you are going on and on about apples for some reason. I never discussed specific ingredients in this thread. 

My point, once again, is that many educated and well-meaning posters on a variety of forums don't come across as being the final arbitrators of the truth and facts. If we took all the nutritional statements made in the last 50 years by people who actually have degrees in the subject and compare them to what we know today, we would see that a lot has changed.


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## CorgiPaws (Mar 31, 2009)

PDXdogmom said:


> I'm not quite sure why you're acting as magicre's spokesperson - really no way for me to know the relationships between posters and probably doesn't matter.
> 
> But I do not care to be misrepresented. I have not agreed or disagreed with any nutritional opinion expressed in this thread by magicre. It's rather baffling that both of you are going on and on about apples for some reason. I never discussed specific ingredients in this thread.
> 
> My point, once again, is that many educated and well-meaning posters on a variety of forums don't come across as being the final arbitrators of the truth and facts. If we took all the nutritional statements made in the last 50 years by people who actually have degrees in the subject and compare them to what we know today, we would see that a lot has changed.


I am no one's spokesperson. I've been around here for a long time now, and I know the personalities of the active posters (her being one) enough to know that she was NOT being rude when you tried to call her out on it. It's that simple. 
I used the apples as a simple example of how people base their opinions on facts, and we take the facts that we know and decide what makes the most sense. You're assuming that people are being offensive and that we are a close minded bunch when it is simply not true. You have clearly not taken the time to get to know any of the personalities around here, nor how this forum works. I suggest you do. You have sorely misunderstood confidence in the matter as arrogance. You've taken it the wrong way. 
I don't care about degrees. Most degrees have a money trail. Nothing in nutrition has changed. What people think they know has changed. Mother nature got canine nutrition right the first time, and it has remained the same for hundreds of thousands of years. Dogs are designed, snout to tail, to eat and digest meat, bones, and organs. Most people with degrees tend to over complicate a very simple matter. I would say that mother nature IS the end all be all when it comes to animals and their nutritional, and that says that processed foods of ANY kind, be it kibble, or some mystery apple powder in a box, are not ideal for any species.


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## meggels (May 30, 2010)

magicre: to be honest, your posts do come across as very harsh and I think tend to put people on the defense. If you really do want to educate people and maybe give them a new perspective, maybe you, or anyone for that matter, might think of wording things a little more gently. 

I know people that feed raw are passionate, but i think sometimes that passion turns into them being a little too strong in their interactions with people and I've been on the receiving of that, it can be a little off-putting lol.


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## Ania's Mommy (Feb 8, 2009)

Oh for goodness sake. Can we drop this already? PDX, you thought that Magicre's tone was nasty. Magicre said she didn't intend for it to be. Done. Let's get back to the OP's original question. We're muddying up his/her thread.


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

meggels and pdxdogmom. as all of us have opinions, you have yours. i have mine.

this is not the venue to discuss my personality and how it affects your feelings.

so let's take it to private message if you want to continue this nonsense, which is what it is. i will not post further in this thread.


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## RawFedDogs (Jun 16, 2008)

I haven't been following this thread because frankly, discussions of kibble just don't interest me in the least. I can't think of anything more boring to talk about but you folks seem to have made this one pretty exciting.

@PDXdogmom: If you put all the nutritionists that don't work for dog food companies in a room, they will pretty much agree on most all aspects of nutrition. Instead of arguing and getting your feelings hurt, you should listen to magicre. She really knows her stuff. She has forgotten more about biology, medicine, and nutrition than everyone else's on the board kowledge combined. In going back and reading this thread, I didn't see her say anything that wasn't factual unless she called it opinoin.

This board has MANY members who are knoweldgable about canine nutrition. People come here to learn and learn they do. That is our purpose for being here. Anytime someone disagrees with information in a post, they have the right and maybe even obligation to say so and to give reasons why they disagree. We all love that but we need to keep our cool in it and don't get all upset because someone was frank or blunt or harsh or whatever.

Now, with all that said, let's all take a deep breath and watch what we say. This particular thread is heading in a bad direction and we need to turn it back into a positive direction. We can disagree on opinions, facts, or the difference between two without getting personal about it.

Thank you,
The management :smile:


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## meggels (May 30, 2010)

magicre said:


> meggels and pdxdogmom. as all of us have opinions, you have yours. i have mine.
> 
> this is not the venue to discuss my personality and how it affects your feelings.
> 
> so let's take it to private message if you want to continue this nonsense, which is what it is. i will not post further in this thread.



I have nothing further to say about the matter, was merely trying to share my opinion and perhaps clarify why you and pdxdogmom might be having this disagreement and miscommunication


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## 420 (Jun 6, 2011)

High Guys,

I would like to apologize once again for not having the time yet to read, digest and reply to everyone.

It's coming soon, I promise. 

I did however take the first step yesterday and purchased something in between raw and kibble.

ZiwiPeak air-dried raw food from New Zealand - Daily-Dog Cuisine - Venison & Fish Recipe



> A balanced meat, fish and organs diet with added vitamins and minerals.





> Energize your pets with the nutritional value of a raw meat, fish and organs diet, with the convenience of air-dried portions.


Anyone heard of these guys and have any feedback?

$29.99 for a 2.2lb bag that they say should last Buddy about 3 weeks.

He absolutely loves it, first time I've ever seen him take to his food like it's a treat. 

3 times more expensive than his normal food, however I was told he will eat a little less of it, because he is getting more out of it.

The girl at the pet store (Pets Plus) said this is the next best thing to raw, without being frozen raw, since it's air dried.

I figured this would be the first step, before taking the plunge into raw frozen.

I am really looking forward to reading the rest of this thread and replying to everyone.

Please keep your advice and comments flowing, Buddy and I are truly grateful for everyone's wonderful feedback and support.

Thank you, thank you, thank you. 

If a mod feels it would be more appropriate to move this thread to raw food, be my guest, whatever makes everyone happy. 

Sending you all lots of love and positive energy through the Universe.

Namaste


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

420 said:


> High Guys,
> 
> I would like to apologize once again for not having the time yet to read, digest and reply to everyone.
> 
> ...


if ever i had to stop feeding fresh raw, ziwipeak premade raw would be at the top of my list.


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## swolek (Mar 31, 2011)

I've used Ziwipeak food as training treats before, it's good stuff as far as the processed foods go . I like how it doesn't contain a ton of random extras like some of the more vegetable-heavy brands.


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