# Raw Feeding Vs. Vet



## Itty bitty Kitty (Dec 26, 2011)

I'm curious why it seems most vets are opposed to raw feeding. I was talking to a friend who's getting a degree in vet tech and I kinda got bashed lol. I was asking for his opinion on it but I wasn't expecting him to be confrontational with me. 

The major questions he asked me were:

*" Where is your proof that raw feeding is beneficial? There are no scientific facts that suggest it will provide a balanced diet to your dog."

" Where is your evidence that raw-feeding can expand a dog's life span and improve health?"

" Are you aware of the risks in raw feeding?"*

Yikes! I don't do well with confrontation! I get all tongue-tied. I was telling him how I've been spending a lot of time researching and interacting with raw-feeding communities and asking questions. Immediately he told me: 

" Well there's your problem." and told me that self-researching on stuff like that is dangerous and it makes me naive for considering all the advise I've been getting from you guys. He didn't think too kindly of the idea that I was ordering " Raw Meat Bones" and "Work Wonder" by Tom Lonsdale. He took a look at them and wanted to point my attention to all the negative reviews on it, specifically this one: Amazon.com: callen's review of Work Wonders: Feed Your Dog Raw Meaty Bones

Keep in mind I'm not saying all vets are opposed! I know there are vets out there who support raw feeding. Just so far the only ones I know are on forums like these lol. I just hope I can find a vet who can, if not agree with me, respect my decisions.

Why cant you people live closer to me!? lol


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## kady05 (Jul 29, 2011)

I honestly haven't put too much thought into what I'll tell my vet when I go next time in regards to raw feeding. Although, I think he knows I switched all of my dogs, because my friend is a tech there and she knows about it.

Either way, I'll probably just tell him to look at my dogs and tell me I'm hurting them (if he seems like he objects it). Take Piper for example: never had consistent stools on kibble, skin allergies, gross coat, yeast on her belly almost 24/7, urinary incontinence.. since switching to raw, she has perfect stools, no more allergy issues (or yeast), her coat is so shiny she looks wet sometimes, and has only has 3 accidents (in 6 months, that's vs. sometimes 4-5 a month on kibble) since switching. How can anyone say that the raw is hurting her?


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## frogdog (Aug 10, 2011)

Itty Bitty...where do you live in NC?

Check this link out
AHVMA - American Holistic Veterinary Medical Association


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## DaneMama (Jun 27, 2008)

Here's a really good thread about this...give it a read all the way through as it'll help you to learn more how to "defend" or stand your ground to people who are against raw feeding:

http://dogfoodchat.com/forum/dog-food-ingredients/2329-backed-scientific-study.html


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## Makovach (Jan 24, 2012)

I wouldnt worry too much about that. I find alot of vets to be very close minded when it comes to feeding, esp. Raw. 
When i first started raw, she asked me the same questions. She even went as far as buying me a book! The book talked about how raw was bad and a home cooked diet is better. I hated the book. And she argued with me constantly. 

At the time my dad had a toy poodle with double k9s and a terrible coat and hot spots all over and itchy as can be. I also had Nalah (a boxer i was forced to rehome  ) Who was epileptic and had ongoing pancreintitus (sp). Both dogs went to the vet monthly. When i started raw, the problems started to go away. Deohgee's gums and teeth were clear, his coat was soft and fluffy. He didnt itch and had no more hot spots. Nalah quit her epilepsey medication and her pancreintitus vanished about 4 months into feeding raw. The vet was supprised and asked what i was doing differntly. I told her i was feeding raw and she told me to be quite because she didnt want to hear about it because it is terrible for my dogs. 

I told her i would answer her questions.
" Where is your proof that raw feeding is beneficial? 
The proof is in the pudding! The dogs are healthy and their health problems have vanished. They no longer need medication that has long term side affects that can hurt them. The medication had to be continuly given and only helped to mask the symptoms and help make the pancratic attacks and seizures happen less. With raw they didnt happen at all. Simply by changing their diet, they have better health and they dont need medication to be healthy. All Nalahs blood pannels were comeing back clear.

There are no scientific facts that suggest it will provide a balanced diet to your dog."

It balance over time. Over time they get what they need. If it wasn't balanced, would the dog be healthy?


" Where is your evidence that raw-feeding can expand a dog's life span and improve health?"
Again, health problems vanished. Something the medication couldnt do. seeing is believeing!

" Are you aware of the risks in raw feeding?"
What risks? salmonela and ecoli? They are often found in kibble too. Dogs are made to digest the meat. They can handle the raw meats because their digestive tract is about 1/3 the size of ours. Choaking on bones? They have teeth and strong jaws to break the bones. it comes down to common sence and knowing your dog and what your dog can and can not handle. 

IMHO, I think the negitivity is partialy because when i fed raw, my dogs had no health problems. and that was takeing the $300 a month i was spending at the vet out of her pocket. I left this vet and am searching for a new vet. I do alot of my own home remidies and i have back up vets for when they are needed. Right now i'm looking for a holistic vet. 

Don't let it get to you.


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## Itty bitty Kitty (Dec 26, 2011)

> Itty Bitty...where do you live in NC?
> 
> Check this link out
> AHVMA - American Holistic Veterinary Medical Association


Yup! In Raleigh! Thanks for the link! There's one just 25 minutes away! Thanks so much! <3


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## KittyKat (Feb 11, 2011)

Itty bitty Kitty said:


> *" Where is your proof that raw feeding is beneficial? There are no scientific facts that suggest it will provide a balanced diet to your dog."
> 
> " Where is your evidence that raw-feeding can expand a dog's life span and improve health?"
> 
> " Are you aware of the risks in raw feeding?"*


Proof? My dog is eating meat. They are a carnivore. Carnivores eat meat. Pretty sure I don't need proof that this would be good for them, since its common sense. 

Evidence? Where is their evidence that kibble is better then a natural balanced diet? They don't have it. Burden of proof should be on them since meat is what dogs naturally eat. Scientific studies are backed by big money, so you won't find any that saw a natural diet is a godsend for dogs. That would cause vets and food companies to lose money... which doesn't make financial sense to them.

Risks? There are more risks to stuffing your dog with corn. Sure a dog can choke on a bone, but the last president of the US also chocked on a pretzel.


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## NewYorkDogue (Sep 27, 2011)

Just the other night I was watching Nat Geo Wild and they had a whole show on the wild dogs of Africa. These dogs manifested behaviors that were so similar to domesticated dogs that I could really see no difference (except for obvious breed/size/type that we live with in civilized society.)

The way they communicate and greet each other; the submissive gestures; the pack mentality and cooperation; the way the pups are raised and cared for; how they played with each other; the behaviors that are exactly expressed within our own dogs... especially _how they feed themselves and what they eat._

Meat. Bone. Organs. That's it. And they were lean, strong and fit. 

(What eventually decimated an entire pack was rabies. One, by one... horrible to witness.)

Anyway, Nature has her own rules. And, in my opinion, the closer we follow natural laws, the better off we (and our dogs) are in the long run.


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## shellbell (Sep 24, 2011)

My vet says he has nothing against people wanting to feed their dogs a healthy diet, but the bones make him nervous.


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## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

Itty bitty Kitty said:


> I'm curious why it seems most vets are opposed to raw feeding. I was talking to a friend who's getting a degree in vet tech and I kinda got bashed lol. I was asking for his opinion on it but I wasn't expecting him to be confrontational with me.
> 
> The major questions he asked me were:
> 
> ...


I am like you. I think of all the good things to say about three hours later. I have been so angry with myself when I haven't been able to defend the way I feed and come off seeming like some dolt who is throwing death at their dog in the form of a chicken leg.

Which is why it is so important to me to find a vet who won't be combative with me about it. 

If anyone asks me the questions you were asked, I won't go back - the first priority has to be my dog's health, and I'm not out to prove anything or argue with anyone. I just want a vet to take proper care of my dog.

I have to ask myself - could I be dissuaded from raw? And the answer is absolutely not. No point in letting someone tell me what an idiot I am and then continue to bring my dog to them.


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## MollyWoppy (Mar 19, 2010)

Well, I wouldn't worry too much, just do what you feel is right for your dog. You don't have to explain yourself to anyone, your dogs health will prove what you are doing is right, wait and see. 
Yesterday I took Mollie and Windy to the vets for Mol's yearly checkup. I bit the bullet and confessed I was feeding raw. (funny, I was thinking of re as I said it). Explained to them exactly what she gets to eat and that I am going to have yearly blood tests to make sure her diet is complete and doesn't need tweaking in any way. They never said a word. In a weird way I was a touch disappointed, but at least they know now and when they realise I'm trying to be responsible about it and the more they see how great Mollie seems to be doing, then maybe I can change their minds, just a bit.
The vet did say that Mol's coat is just gorgeous, her teeth and excellent and her muscles are perfect. 
I was very happy to walk out of there without the obligatory sample bag of SD, thats for sure!
I like this vet a hell of a lot, he is absolutely excellent at his job, I just need to try and force his hand at his idea of what is proper food for a dog. They HATE Orijen by the way. Too much protein they say - as I watched someone walking out of there with untold cans and a big bag of Science Diet KD. Oh well, we'll see. Hopefully we'll be going there for years and years to come and they'll eventually see that I didn't kill my dog.


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## Itty bitty Kitty (Dec 26, 2011)

> I am like you. I think of all the good things to say about three hours later. I have been so angry with myself when I haven't been able to defend the way I feed and come off seeming like some dolt who is throwing death at their dog in the form of a chicken leg.
> 
> Which is why it is so important to me to find a vet who won't be combative with me about it.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the reassurance! I just wish I was more quick witted so I can prove that I'm not as dumb as people think I am lol. Either way, I think I've found a vet that fits my needs thanks to frogdog! I'll be visiting at some point to see how it is


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## naturalfeddogs (Jan 6, 2011)

Itty bitty Kitty said:


> I'm curious why it seems most vets are opposed to raw feeding. I was talking to a friend who's getting a degree in vet tech and I kinda got bashed lol. I was asking for his opinion on it but I wasn't expecting him to be confrontational with me.
> 
> The major questions he asked me were:
> 
> ...


​For me, my dogs are the only proof I need. They are eating the way nature intended a carnivore to eat and have been for millions of years. I know the risks, and know that mother nature designed dogs to be able to eat this way loooooong before I came along.


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## brandypup (Jan 23, 2012)

I agree. Vets are educated by the pet food makers in nutirition for one. That is what they are taught. the documentary Pet Food: A Dog's Breakfast (can be seen on you tube) talks some about that. 

Also vets see the bad becuase they are vets. So they have some biased issues about things becuase they do not have people coming in daily saying Wow look at my wonderful healthy pet who really doesn't neeed to see you for anything but here I am anyway! They have the people who come in and say my dog shas this that and the other. I fed a bone he broke a tooth so now all bones are bad to them. 


My vets are goodd with it. When my beagle went to the vet last year (I go yearly for check up and show off my dog) the vet was amazed. She said well shoot the raw works for him. She could barly give his 3 yr rabies becuase so much muscle in his leg.  I was worried he was too skinny and of course he was perfect. I am used to fatter looking dogs. 

But I wouldn't worry about it much. Also some vets and vet techs, especially right out of or in school can be...um... very much overly into what all they have just learned and not know the differnce between real world and text books.  (ducking, lots of techs here I know lol) I lived with one ugh.


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## eternalstudent (Jul 22, 2010)

My vet had issues with "alternative feeding" as he put it due to the amount of people who got it wrong!! He well remembers the Danes in the late 80 early 90s turning up having been supplemented with calcium etc. from an early age and suffering all manner of bone issues.

However, he is open minded and asked me to compile a feeding log / weight log of my new pup. He is asked quite often about raw diets but can not in all conscious give positive advice. He does acknowledge that my pup is healthy and will have less issues with her teeth but has yet to follow a raw fed dog through the years.

I am hoping that I can give him enough info to help.

The problem with being quick-witted is that it can lead to arguments as well as discussions. Vets IMHO have little time to converse and have a tendency to stick to there own rule book and us the client will never move them! A shame but true.


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## doggoblin (Jun 6, 2011)

*" Where is your proof that raw feeding is beneficial? There are no scientific facts that suggest it will provide a balanced diet to your dog."*
Where is the proof that that it isn't other than hearsay. Please give statistics of dangers which are unbiased and still scientific. Can you please explain why most commercial foods have large amounts of carbohydrates when even the AAFCO nutrient profiles don't include them? Also ask who would fund any scientific study?

*" Where is your evidence that raw-feeding can expand a dog's life span and improve health?"*
http://www.ukrmb.co.uk/images/LippertSapySummary.pdf states home made food increases lifespan by an average 2-3 years (note, not specifically raw). Again you can also reverse the question asking for an unbiased scientific report for commercial food increasing lifespan. Also the good old quote 80% of dogs over the age of 3 have tooth problems. Why would this be?

*" Are you aware of the risks in raw feeding?"*
Get them to list them. Ecoli and salmonella is probably high on the list.. You don't eat the poop and need to take general hygiene precautions. Choking.. well how many dogs choke on kibble, I know one of ours almost did. Perforations of intestines etc.. how many uncooked bones cause it.. ask for hard statistics rather than hearsay. Compare with twigs and other foriegn objects. How come in the raw feeding community horror stories are not spread considering if I had a horror story about my dog eating raw I sure as hell would scream about it wherever I could or are all these horror stories simply deleted even from unbiased forums?

Obvious question for them.. How much nutritional training have they had? Was it sponsored at all and if so, who by?


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## Itty bitty Kitty (Dec 26, 2011)

> But I wouldn't worry about it much. Also some vets and vet techs, especially right out of or in school can be...um... very much overly into what all they have just learned and not know the differnce between real world and text books.  (ducking, lots of techs here I know lol) I lived with one ugh.


Aha! I did notice that! He's the type of guy that likes to remind people of what his major is and tends to have an overwhelming need to educate everyone and anyone.


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## Itty bitty Kitty (Dec 26, 2011)

doggoblin said:


> *" Where is your proof that raw feeding is beneficial? There are no scientific facts that suggest it will provide a balanced diet to your dog."*
> Where is the proof that that it isn't other than hearsay. Please give statistics of dangers which are unbiased and still scientific. Can you please explain why most commercial foods have large amounts of carbohydrates when even the AAFCO nutrient profiles don't include them? Also ask who would fund any scientific study?
> 
> *" Where is your evidence that raw-feeding can expand a dog's life span and improve health?"*
> ...


Gah! Why couldn't I have thought of those things!? Thanks! I will try to keep those in mind so I can at-least defend some of my view points lol.


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## Stryker's mom (Jan 27, 2012)

I have a great vet, his only concern with feeding raw is that I make sure I wash my hands well! I can only assume that some vets think most people are idiots (some are, some aren't) and that the "average" person would not be able to feed raw without issue. People just do not think much. I was associated with a zoo years ago; there was a woman working in the nursery who believed (we found out too late) that no animal should be eating any other animal...she was discovered (using hidden camera) trying to feed the cub a "vegetarian" diet and subsequently fired. Carnivores is carnivores!


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

NY Dogue: did the show mention how they came to get rabies?

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Shellbell: tell your vet to be more concerned with sticks and stones and socks.
socks: number one leading cause of obstruction, not bone.

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xellil: when i decided to talk to my vet and include that i fed raw, i wrote down the salient points that i knew i would forget. Now, of course, it's all memorised and mostly consists of:

can you find ONE thing wrong with either of my dogs? 

No? then i guess any further discussion is Moo, as Joey would say. 

--------------------------------------

MollyWoppy: yay for you, penny....it's so much better to disagree and be out in the open than it is to feel THAT way because you're not disclosing and you so want to....good for you.

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IttyBittyKitty: as i said above and believe me, i was where you are.....write it down.
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Brandypup...you're so right...they have no more proof, other than biased studies than we do with thousands of anecdotal reports and the dogs that support those anecdotal reports.
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eternal student: you and i both know that calcium supps are not in the same ballbark as natural food....
------------------------------------------------

salmonella is so prominent in dry food it's hard to measure and has been reported as often as vets seem to ignore that little factoid.

i look at my dogs and they are healthy. i watch my dogs and they act healthy. 

I smell my dogs and they smell healthy.

that's all i need.


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## MissusMac (Jan 6, 2011)

I remember feeling the way you are when I first asked my cousin, who is a vet, her opinion on the raw diet. I C&P this into a thread here a year or more ago but I'll post it again:

*"Not just NO, but HELL NO! The DVM/PhD Animal Nutritionist, when I was in vet school, told us that this is an incredibly horrible diet for animals to be on. Most of the incredibly emaciated animals that I see at the clinic are on the BARF (Bones and Raw Food) diet. Raw chicken and eggs are an excellent source of Salmonella poisoning, raw beef is potentially contaminated with E. Coli, and raw pork can give you Trichinosis and/or Toxoplasmosis, just to name a few horrible things a person or animal can get from eating raw meat. Poultry bones and pork bones can splinter and cause gastrointestinal perforation. You also run the risk of nutritional deficiencies when you feed the raw diets. There are too many excellent commercial dog foods available to seriously consider these fad diets. Breeders will tell you that veterinarians do not know anything, but I always ask clients what school their breeder attended and what level of education their breeder has.

In case you are interested, I feed my babies Purina Pro Plan Chicken and Rice. You can purchase that dog food from PetSmart or PetCo. What ever diet you decide to go with, I recommend you gradually switch your baby so you do not give him diarrhea."*

Despite her vehement protest to it, I went with my gut and have been feeding raw with success for a year. She attended vet school at Texas A&M, which probably has it's programs funded by SD or Purina. I don't know for sure but I don't see any other way an animal nutritionist could possibly endorse Purina as an "excellent dog food". :shocked:

I have somehow dodged the subject of what I feed Miko whenever I get together with my cousin, because I'm sure she'd be offended if she knew I completely disregarded her advice.


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## NewYorkDogue (Sep 27, 2011)

magicre said:


> NY Dogue: did the show mention how they came to get rabies?


---------------------------------------

You know what-- I can't recall how they originally picked up the rabies. What they believe, though, is that since the dogs are nomadic, one of the pack (which numbered around 20-30 dogs) had picked it up at one of the new locations and transmitted it throughout the pack through play and other contact. Until there was only one left, an older male. He eventually died, due to being all alone and unable to exist without the community and protection of the pack. They showed him wandering, and occasionally crying out for his family... heart-breaking!

Also, apparently when rabies takes hold, the dogs go mad because they are unable to swallow, due to swollen lips and throat. They showed one frantically trying to chew dirt-- he was so thirsty, but couldn't drink; their behavior becomes strange and nonsensical. 

Those overseeing this pack had tried to dart- vaccinate the remaining dogs, but it was too late... really a hellish death.


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## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

MissusMac said:


> Despite her vehement protest to it, I went with my gut and have been feeding raw with success for a year. She attended vet school at Texas A&M, which probably has it's programs funded by SD or Purina. I don't know for sure but I don't see any other way an animal nutritionist could possibly endorse Purina as an "excellent dog food". :shocked:


Our new cardiologist is from Texas A&M - we have our first meeting with her next month since she only comes to Dallas once a month. I believe in telling the truth about what I feed my dogs, so we'll see what she says.

Our last cardiologist was from Michigan State/Purdue and he was all for it - except he said it's a pain because it's so messy.


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## CoverTune (Dec 20, 2011)

I work in a vet clinic and I'm very nervous about my boss (the vet) finding out that I feed raw. I don't want him to lose respect for me.

It sucks, because it's literally my job to recommend those nasty veterinary diets to clients.


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## Itty bitty Kitty (Dec 26, 2011)

CoverTune said:


> I work in a vet clinic and I'm very nervous about my boss (the vet) finding out that I feed raw. I don't want him to lose respect for me.
> 
> It sucks, because it's literally my job to recommend those nasty veterinary diets to clients.


That really does suck :/ I imagine that must feel like you're obliged to be dishonest when giving advice on nutrition.


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