# Why Collars Suck



## SpooOwner

A little light on evidence, but the theory is sound. Still, I don't always take the time to put on harnesses if we're not walking far.

Dogmantics Dog Training Blog: Is it harmful to attach a leash to your dog’s neck?


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## whiteleo

I agree, I have seen 2 cases of crushed trachea's in Bull Terriers from collars and people using them improperly.


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## Savage Destiny

And then there's the nasty side effects of harnesses, like the fact that I have NEVER seen one a dog can't easily slip out of it they want to, which is dangerous to the extreme. Not to mention the front clip harnesses the article recommends, which I have discussed my dislike for in the past, as they tend to produce shoulder issues in dogs that wear them long term. The article doesn't really address training dogs to not pull. That's a much safer bet than just throwing on a harness and letting them pull, since I can guarantee that will eventually cause problems as well. 


My dogs always walk on collars, and they always will. I take the time to train them not to pull. They also wear collars like this: 









1.5" - 2" thick padded collars, that are not going to crush a trachea or snap a neck if they lunge suddenly for some reason. They wear thin backup collars in case they slip their flat collar. I will _never_ walk my dogs on a harness, because the danger of them slipping out for some reason is too great- the same reason they wear backup collars. Not to mention that Riddle is dog reactive, and having her wearing something she can easily ditch is just plain stupid. 

I've worked with dogs for nearly 10 years and seen thousands of dogs. I have seen maybe 5 cases of collapsed tracheas, some of which weren't even collar related. I've NEVER heard of thyroid problems being related to collars. I think this is a much smaller issue than the article writer wants us to believe.


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## SaharaNight Boxers

We use a double no slip collar on Duke. It even out the pressure and as soon as he feels the pull he stops or goes to a slower pace. Duke is one of those dogs that can and will slip out of everything. Harnesses, collars, even "no slip" collars. He's slipped out of harnesses many many times. Honestly, too any to count. It just got dangerous so we don't use them anymore.


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## xchairity_casex

Savage Destiny said:


> And then there's the nasty side effects of harnesses, like the fact that I have NEVER seen one a dog can't easily slip out of it they want to, which is dangerous to the extreme. Not to mention the front clip harnesses the article recommends, which I have discussed my dislike for in the past, as they tend to produce shoulder issues in dogs that wear them long term. The article doesn't really address training dogs to not pull. That's a much safer bet than just throwing on a harness and letting them pull, since I can guarantee that will eventually cause problems as well.
> 
> 
> My dogs always walk on collars, and they always will. I take the time to train them not to pull. They also wear collars like this:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
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> 
> 
> 1.5" - 2" thick padded collars, that are not going to crush a trachea or snap a neck if they lunge suddenly for some reason. They wear thin backup collars in case they slip their flat collar. I will _never_ walk my dogs on a harness, because the danger of them slipping out for some reason is too great- the same reason they wear backup collars. Not to mention that Riddle is dog reactive, and having her wearing something she can easily ditch is just plain stupid.
> 
> I've worked with dogs for nearly 10 years and seen thousands of dogs. I have seen maybe 5 cases of collapsed tracheas, some of which weren't even collar related. I've NEVER heard of thyroid problems being related to collars. I think this is a much smaller issue than the article writer wants us to believe.




i really like that thick collar, would love one for Cesar, but many are sooo exspensive and im not willing ot spend the money on it right now, maybe later (maybe because im stingy i would rather buy things i NEED then things i want)


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## Unosmom

I think it's important to assess your own dog and what type of restraints are most appropriate. I've had bad results with gentle leader harness where it rubber sore spots on Uno's armpits (it wasn't even tight). He doesn't really pull during a walk, so I'm not overly concerned with things like collapsed trachea. I guess I can see it being an issue with dogs that choke themselves to death with pulling.


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## whiteleo

Savage Destiny said:


> And then there's the nasty side effects of harnesses, like the fact that I have NEVER seen one a dog can't easily slip out of it they want to, which is dangerous to the extreme. Not to mention the front clip harnesses the article recommends, which I have discussed my dislike for in the past, as they tend to produce shoulder issues in dogs that wear them long term. The article doesn't really address training dogs to not pull. That's a much safer bet than just throwing on a harness and letting them pull, since I can guarantee that will eventually cause problems as well.
> 
> 
> My dogs always walk on collars, and they always will. I take the time to train them not to pull. They also wear collars like this:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 1.5" - 2" thick padded collars, that are not going to crush a trachea or snap a neck if they lunge suddenly for some reason. They wear thin backup collars in case they slip their flat collar. I will _never_ walk my dogs on a harness, because the danger of them slipping out for some reason is too great- the same reason they wear backup collars. Not to mention that Riddle is dog reactive, and having her wearing something she can easily ditch is just plain stupid.
> 
> I've worked with dogs for nearly 10 years and seen thousands of dogs. I have seen maybe 5 cases of collapsed tracheas, some of which weren't even collar related. I've NEVER heard of thyroid problems being related to collars. I think this is a much smaller issue than the article writer wants us to believe.


I think I've seen way more damage from people using prong collars on dogs who don't know how to use them...Give me a harness any day over a collar for walking a dog who is a puller...I have used the easy walk harness since my dogs were puppies, well Leo 11 month's old and they don't pull anymore but I still don't/won't walk them in a collar.


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## PunkyPug

This is going to be a very controversial thread. But I hope we can all keep the peace and respect everyone's opinions.

I am one who uses a collar on my pug. Many pug owners shun me because of this I have a VERY good reason to do so. Even through a PROPERLY adjusted harness has my pug pulled herself out. I've even adjusted the harness to fit only 1 finger(instead or 2 or 3) under each strap and she STILL pulled through through them. The second I buckle the harness shut she is pulling her way out.
I've recently purchased a mini "greyhound collar" and it works great on her.


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## Kat

PunkyPug said:


> This is going to be a very controversial thread. But I hope we can all keep the peace and respect everyone's opinions.
> 
> I am one who uses a collar on my pug. Many pug owners shun me because of this I have a VERY good reason to do so. Even through a PROPERLY adjusted harness has my pug pulled herself out. I've even adjusted the harness to fit only 1 finger(instead or 2 or 3) under each strap and she STILL pulled through through them. The second I buckle the harness shut she is pulling her way out.
> I've recently purchased a mini "greyhound collar" and it works great on her.


Greyhound collar, you mean the martingale collar? Its looks like a collar with a chain on it yes? I used to use one for Ruby from the time she was 5 months old until she was 2 years old. 

Then I switched to a harness. The collar helped me to get her not to pull hard anymore. Now I use a puppia harness for her. She pulls once in a while, and its only when she really has to pee or if she sees another dog she will pull to meet them. Iv been using harnesses for about 7 months now, and she has not tried to escape from one, and I dont think she even knows she could escape from them. 

As someone who has used both collars and harnesses on my dog, I personally now prefer to use a harness because I can tell Ruby is a lot more comfortable in her harness on walks than with the collar. And I like how the harness clips between her shoulder blades as opposed to how a collar clips right around the neck, because when she would be sniffing on a walk the leash would always swoop down and get in her way. While with the harness the leash doesnt get in her way which is really nice. 

I dont mind any type of collar that people use on their dogs - as long as they use them correctly. I hate when I see a dog owner who is yanking the hell out of their dogs necks because they cant control them - and then the dog ends up choking, gagging, and gasping from the exertion.

Oh, and another reason I switched from a collar to a harness is because I saw on the animal planet channel that if a pug suddenly pulls really hard and puts a lot of pressure on their throat their eyes can pop out. Which freaked me out and I didnt want that happening to Ruby if she like jumped at a squirrel abruptly or something.


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## PunkyPug

Kat said:


> Greyhound collar, you mean the martingale collar? Its looks like a collar with a chain on it yes? I used to use one for Ruby from the time she was 5 months old until she was 2 years old.
> 
> Then I switched to a harness. The collar helped me to get her not to pull hard anymore. Now I use a puppia harness for her. She pulls once in a while, and its only when she really has to pee or if she sees another dog she will pull to meet them. Iv been using harnesses for about 7 months now, and she has not tried to escape from one, and I dont think she even knows she could escape from them.
> 
> As someone who has used both collars and harnesses on my dog, I personally now prefer to use a harness because I can tell Ruby is a lot more comfortable in her harness on walks than with the collar. And I like how the harness clips between her shoulder blades as opposed to how a collar clips right around the neck, because when she would be sniffing on a walk the leash would always swoop down and get in her way. While with the harness the leash doesnt get in her way which is really nice.
> 
> I dont mind any type of collar that people use on their dogs - as long as they use them correctly. I hate when I see a dog owner who is yanking the hell out of their dogs necks because they cant control them - and then the dog ends up choking, gagging, and gasping from the exertion.
> 
> Oh, and another reason I switched from a collar to a harness is because I saw on the animal planet channel that if a pug suddenly pulls really hard and puts a lot of pressure on their throat their eyes can pop out. Which freaked me out and I didnt want that happening to Ruby if she like jumped at a squirrel abruptly or something.



Sorry for the confusion.
I use this collar. (Picture courtesy of Calling All Dogs) Cept it is an inch to a half inch narrower. The ones pictured are around 2" wide.








I've never once pulled on Emma's neck. I've dealt with big dogs all my life and when getting Emma the thought occurred to me how much more breakable her neck is compared to my doberman's neck. Thus started my experiment in teaching her to heel without any contact on the leash. It was difficult at 1st because it was an experiment and WIP. But we soon got the hang of it and she walks very politely. All that was really needed was to establish the "heel" command and the "leave it" command. When she expresses interest in a dog, cat(whatever animal) even children, I tell her to "leave it" and she walks on ward with few thoughts to what she wants to greet.


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## Kat

Oh the designs on those collars are so cute! I do the same command with Ruby! The second I say "leave it" she snaps out of anything. Best command ever lol, comes in handy


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## Jacksons Mom

I'm not one of those small dog owners who think it's the end of the world if an owner chooses to walk their small dog on a collar. I think, so long as the dog is trained not to pull, a collar should not be a big issue. But a lot of small dog forums are very much against walking on collars solely. 

I use a harness because Jackson does have a somewhat sensitive neck. I will walk him on a collar if it's just a quick potty break but otherwise it's a harness. There's been a few occasions where I've had to "helicopter" him up into my arms (once when an aggressive Lab charged us) and I could not have done that with a collar. 

It also makes me feel more secure because he has slipped collars before if he pulls them the right way. I don't like him to wear a super tight collar either because he wears them around the house all day long and I don't take it off... so I keep the collars a *bit* looser. The harness makes me feel more secure. 

Also because it's always so awkward to walk him on a collar - he often is holding his neck up like the leash is annoying him and it always gets in the way. 

So that's why we choose harnesses mostly over collars. He does not pull on a harness.


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## PunkyPug

Kat said:


> Oh the designs on those collars are so cute! I do the same command with Ruby! The second I say "leave it" she snaps out of anything. Best command ever lol, comes in handy


Best ever.
I actually just did a small session to brush up on Emma's "attention" and "leave it" commands. Not as great like we use it everyday. But still darn good 
Those Blue Bars are too tempting to leave alone as we walk pass. Their her FAVORITE treats.


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## tem_sat

I love the Puppia Harness Vest. They work very well for those with short legs, such as Doxies.


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## PunkyPug

tem_sat said:


> I love the Puppia Harness Vest. They work very well for those with short legs, such as Doxies.
> 
> View attachment 7983


Why is a Puppia harness any better than a regular harness? Just curious.


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## tem_sat

In my opinion, the pressure is more evenly distributed and not as concentrated on the area directly beneath the neck. Also, if a Doxie walks through ivy or Asian jasmine, it is so easy for that to cause them to have one leg out of their harness. They need a harness that moulds to their body.

ETA: Same applies for sweaters. They cannot wear regular dog sweaters. They end up getting their legs out of the leg holes. They must have sweaters without leg holes.


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## PunkyPug

tem_sat said:


> In my opinion, the pressure is more evenly distributed and not as concentrated on the area directly beneath the neck. Also, if a Doxie walks through ivy or Asian jasmine, it is so easy for that to cause them to have one leg out of their harness. They need a harness that moulds to their body.
> 
> ETA: Same applies for sweaters. They cannot wear regular dog sweaters. They end up getting their legs out of the leg holes. They must have sweaters without leg holes.


TY for the info. I've never had a stubby legged doggie. So I wouldn't know this info


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## doggiedad

i teach my dogs to heel on either side with or
without a leash.


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## Celt

I have used both and even though I dislike using harnesses, I have reccommended harnesses to others. Personally, I found harnesses to be easily "escaped". A dog can cause "themselves" injury with either one if allowed to pull "constantly", lunge, or struggle "violently" against the leash. I had one pup run to the end of a leash and being flipped when he reached the end while wearing a harness. He ended up with spectacular bruising. I prefer collars. With the boys, I "shopped" around until I found a collarmaker that made the style of sighthound (martingale) collars that I wanted.


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## whiteleo

I guess I don't understand how these dogs escape their harnesses? My two will play after a walk, rub their bellies in the grass and then get up and do a "Bully run" all the while being in a harness and attached to a leash and haven't ever escaped yet. Maybe people just lack skills in making them fit correctly..

I see many people walk their dogs in easy walks harnesses now more so here than in a collar, must be a reason for it.


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## RedneckCowgirl

Moose gets walked in a plain, flat collar. He doesn't really pull, and if he does a verbal correction stops him in his tracks. Maddie gets walked with a flat collar as well. I used to walk her with a Halti as we have been slowly working on the silky leash method, and they recommend a halti or a harness during this training period so the dog never gets the opportunity to pull on the collar. We are about 95% weaned off the halti, but it has been a total lifesaver! I refuse to use a harness because I dabble in weight pull and when my dogs get into any harness they are ready to pull, which is exactly how I want them to be


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## Savage Destiny

whiteleo said:


> I guess I don't understand how these dogs escape their harnesses? My two will play after a walk, rub their bellies in the grass and then get up and do a "Bully run" all the while being in a harness and attached to a leash and haven't ever escaped yet. Maybe people just lack skills in making them fit correctly..
> 
> I see many people walk their dogs in easy walks harnesses now more so here than in a collar, must be a reason for it.


I work in a pet store currently, and also as a groomer, which I've been doing for quite some time. I have seen MANY dogs slip right out of harnesses, any kind. They just wiggle right out. I had to tackle a St. Bernard at a Pet Parade last year that had slipped her Easy Walk harness and was making a break for it. Owner caught up with her and we put the stupid thing back on, and yes, it was fitted 100% correctly. Hopefully he didn't lose her again. 

As to your earlier post, would you clarify what sort of damage you're supposedly seeing on dogs that have prongs on? I've never seen a prong-based injury on a dog unless the owner was actually abusing the dog, and those were pretty few and far between. Also, it'll be interesting to see how your dogs' shoulders are down the line, since they pulled on the EW harnesses during their puppy growing stages.


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## whiteleo

Yes, I 've seen damage done from people leaving prong collars on and never taking them off, stupid right? Prong collars are put into the hands of people who don't know how to adjust them. They either leave them too loose or very tight. 

I walk my dogs in an easy walk harness, they don't live in it.....They move just fine, not sure why you want to argue...

I was just stating that I've never seen a dog slip out of a harness and there are plenty of people here who use them, maybe our dogs in WA are better behaved then your dogs in OR lol


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## CorgiPaws

whiteleo said:


> Yes, I 've seen damage done from people leaving prong collars on and never taking them off, stupid right? Prong collars are put into the hands of people who don't know how to adjust them. They either leave them too loose or very tight.
> 
> I walk my dogs in an easy walk harness, they don't live in it.....They move just fine, not sure why you want to argue...
> 
> I was just stating that I've never seen a dog slip out of a harness and there are plenty of people here who use them, maybe our dogs in WA are better behaved then your dogs in OR lol


I have ALSO seen a handful of prong-gone-wrong injuries, honestly, I hate the dang things because most people that have them DON'T use them "properly" and to be frank, even used properly I don't like them. 

But, I also hate harnesses. I think no matter WHAT you walk dogs in (Annie can slip a harness as easily as a flat collar, we use martingale collars here and give them two big fat thumbs up) it's SO IMPORTANT to teach them not to pull, because be it neck, or shoulders, that kind of behavior will cause damage over time.


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## Savage Destiny

whiteleo said:


> I was just stating that I've never seen a dog slip out of a harness and there are plenty of people here who use them, maybe our dogs in WA are better behaved then your dogs in OR lol


Yes, the entire state is filled with bad dogs... give me break. Using your reasoning, I could say that perhaps OR dogs are smart enough to figure out how to slip a harness, maybe WA dogs aren't. Right? 



CorgiPaws said:


> But, I also hate harnesses. I think no matter WHAT you walk dogs in (Annie can slip a harness as easily as a flat collar, we use martingale collars here and give them two big fat thumbs up) it's SO IMPORTANT to teach them not to pull, because be it neck, or shoulders, that kind of behavior will cause damage over time.


This is my original point exactly. Pulling on anything is bad for a dog, unless it's a specifically designed weight pulling/sledding/skijoring harness. For me, walking dogs on something they can escape, whether it's a flat collar with no backup or a harness, is irresponsible. No exceptions.


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## Dude and Bucks Mamma

I was talking to a canine chiropractor about two months ago and we ended up on the topic of EW harnesses. He said that he hates them because he is starting to see so many dogs with shoulder issues because of them. I asked him what made him think they were the harnesses (because they are SO popular) and he told me that it is because the dogs' shoulders are pulled to the side (the leash side) and causes issues in the joint. The more popular those harnesses get, the more shoulders he has to treat.

I will never walk my dogs in harnesses. I don't like them. I actually use a yearling halter on Buck. I don't like the way dog halters fit dogs. When we are going somewhere "bland" I use a Mendota slip lead because he is very well behaved and doesn't pull. 

I, too, have watched dogs slip harnesses. Blaming the fit of the harness isn't logical. All a dog has to do is put on the brakes and back pedal and the leash holder will pull the harness off for him.


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## whiteleo

I was trying to be funny, but I guess you have no sense of humor...........I think we will just have to just agree to disagree, My dogs have never slipped a harness AND they don't have shoulder issues because they don't live in their harnesses. At this point in their B.T. life all I need to do is put the harness on and they are good. Try walking a pack of B.T.'s in flat collars and so whose back hurts?


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## Savage Destiny

Dude and Bucks Mamma said:


> I was talking to a canine chiropractor about two months ago and we ended up on the topic of EW harnesses. He said that he hates them because he is starting to see so many dogs with shoulder issues because of them. I asked him what made him think they were the harnesses (because they are SO popular) and he told me that it is because the dogs' shoulders are pulled to the side (the leash side) and causes issues in the joint. The more popular those harnesses get, the more shoulders he has to treat.
> 
> I will never walk my dogs in harnesses. I don't like them. I actually use a yearling halter on Buck. I don't like the way dog halters fit dogs. When we are going somewhere "bland" I use a Mendota slip lead because he is very well behaved and doesn't pull.
> 
> I, too, have watched dogs slip harnesses. Blaming the fit of the harness isn't logical. All a dog has to do is put on the brakes and back pedal and the leash holder will pull the harness off for him.


That is exactly what Riddle's physical therapist said a few months back. I can't remember how we got on the topic, but she brought up the shoulder issue and the fact that she's having to treat more and more dogs that use them for shoulder problems. I didn't particularly like them in the first place, but now you couldn't pay me to put one on my dog. I will not recommend them at work anymore, and try to talk people into other training aids instead. The dogs don't have to "live" in their harnesses to develop problems, especially if they wear the things on every single walk they go on or every time they go out. In fact, even if they did wear the EW harness 24/7, the times when they were just lying around the house or playing wouldn't even be contributing to a shoulder issue... The problem is when the leash pulls the harness to the side, putting pressure on the shoulder and pushing it to the side, as the chiropractor Dude and Buck's Mama mentioned said. 

Just because your dogs haven't slipped their harnesses doesn't mean they can't. You should really have some sort of backup on them so that if they decide to one day, they can't just take off and get into trouble. I'll say again that I think anyone walking any dog on anything other than a slip lead or martingale should be using a backup. I use backups with flat collars. Everyone should be using backups. 

As for your back hurting walking them... as I mentioned before, training does wonders. I have a Pit Bull. An extremely stubborn Pit Bull who doesn't give a darn if I'm pleased or displeased with her and has zero work ethic. Somehow I managed to leash train her, and she can walk on a flat collar without dragging me around everywhere or hurting her neck.


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## whiteleo

My female will walk fine, no pulling, whatsoever, it's when she decides she doesn't want to walk anymore is the problem...LOL She STOPS, dead in her tracks, and I have a hard time with pulling on her neck constantly. I very rarely actually have to pull on the harness to stop them from being in charge, it's just a matter of having it on for my boy, if that makes sense. And, I think that is what the harness has done for them, they don't pull while wearing it and I don't in exchange have to correct for pulling.

I see where your coming from, and I believe for extreme pullers training is due. B.T's on the other hand, you never know what your going to get from minute to minute....If a squirrel were to come flying across our path, I now that the EW will keep them in check, if I had a flat collar on my boy I would be flying down the path on my arse. I do keep their martigale's on when I use the EW, just don't have anything hooked to it.


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## PunkyPug

whiteleo said:


> Maybe people just lack skills in making them fit correctly..


Nope. Not always the case. I've seen a dog flip out of a correctly fitted harness in less than 3 seconds. The owners had no time to react.

What do you see as a correctly fitted harness?


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## Celt

A dog can slip out of a martingale collar if it isn't fitted correctly, so one must be sure that what ever "restraint" is used is fitted correctly. I reccomended that my niece use "no choke" harnesses because her dogs either have or are inclined to have collapsing tracheas, but even properly fitted one of her pups can "wiggle" free. A dog hitting the end of the leash will cause themselves injury to whatever area "absorbs" the impact whether it be neck or shoulders. I do think that a collar will "show" the severity of the injury sooner than a harness but I don't believe that it's the collar or the harness that cause the injury. The injury is caused by "repeative" stress being allowed to be placed on the dog's body.


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## PunkyPug

This is exactly why I wish so much that everyone could properly and correctly train their dogs. AND be able to walk all dogs off leash. There is just nothing you can put on your dog that won't injure them. No amount of padding can help them :/


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## Liz

Personally I think that again these are just tools and the lack of education is the problem. I have seen uneducated people use all sorts of collars and harnesses and the outcome is pretty much the same - an unpleasant walk, an unhappy dog and possible injury. 

Much as I would like a perfect solution all I can do is make sure my puppies and dogs that I care for whether through training or pet sitting learn how to walk properly on leash. This is yet another reason why my puppies never go to new homes before 12 weeks. I get to teach them how to walk politely and pay attention to the handler. They learn very young how rude it is to ignore their person. We use martingales on all pups and all my babies are still walked on martingales (even the ones placed in their own homes) but only because of their skinny little heads. Dogs we pet sit will learn in a just a few days how to walk nicely and it seems to stick pretty well especially because we show the owner how towork with theri dog and how to use their collar of choice or harness correctly and efficiently. Anyway JMHO.


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## RedneckCowgirl

whiteleo said:


> I was trying to be funny, but I guess you have no sense of humor...........I think we will just have to just agree to disagree, My dogs have never slipped a harness AND they don't have shoulder issues because they don't live in their harnesses. At this point in their B.T. life all I need to do is put the harness on and they are good. *Try walking a pack of B.T.'s in flat collars and so whose back hurts?*


No ones if you take the time to train them not to pull on a lead :wink:


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## whiteleo

RedneckCowgirl said:


> No ones if you take the time to train them not to pull on a lead :wink:


Well, I'd like to see you try....They will walk fine with a martingale and leash by themselves, but put them in a pack of dogs and you better hold on to your hat...This includes all the show B.T's that I go on walks with regularly for club events. B.T's are nothing like a abpt, which I hear are more suseptible to learning.Lol


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## RedneckCowgirl

whiteleo said:


> Well, I'd like to see you try....They will walk fine with a martingale and leash by themselves, but put them in a pack of dogs and you better hold on to your hat...This includes all the show B.T's that I go on walks with regularly for club events. B.T's are nothing like a abpt, which I hear are more suseptible to learning.Lol


All dogs have the ability to learn to walk on a leash. With or without other dogs. Breed is no excuse for anything


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## whiteleo

They do just fine, and I'm not all that worried about my dogs...They are in safe hands!


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## xchairity_casex

> All dogs have the ability to learn to walk on a leash. With or without other dogs. Breed is no excuse for anything


LOL, says the person who doesnt own a Bull Terrier!

Yes all dogs can learn to walk on a lead properly, but with certian breeds like BTs for instance, they are not like most breeds who want to please there owners and dont want a scolding BTs dont give a crap sometimes, they want what they want when they want it. 

i switched from a colalr to harness due to Cesars skin, he would pull like a freight train in the begining, till i started takeing the lead and swooping it across his chest while we walked (it was attatcjed to the back loop) i would hold it at a certian spot so it wasnt tripping him but wasnt tight so when he pulled it would create a barrier across his chest that would automatically make he stop pulling because he felt the barrier, worked awsomely, thats how im teaching Sadie to walk on a lead without pulling works fantastic!
obviously this would be terrible for a dog who was reactive as you cant hold your dog tightly since the elad doesnt tighten to stop your dog but if you only have pullers it works well


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## RedneckCowgirl

xchairity_casex said:


> LOL, says the person who doesnt own a Bull Terrier!


No, says the person who doesn't give a crap what breed the dog is, that knows with proper training they can and will learn. Not saying it won't be hard, or take a while, but it will happen. Every dog I've ever worked with on leash manners has learned to heel in a flat collar (and some off leash) because I like knowing that I don't need a harness around my dogs whole body to be able to control him.


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## whiteleo

RedneckCowgirl said:


> No, says the person who doesn't give a crap what breed the dog is, that knows with proper training they can and will learn. Not saying it won't be hard, or take a while, but it will happen. Every dog I've ever worked with on leash manners has learned to heel in a flat collar (and some off leash) because I like knowing that I don't need a harness around my dogs whole body to be able to control him.


Yes, we can teach our B.T's most anything, in fact Cayenne and I went to about 4 classes when she was quite young. But, if either of the dogs see something that is way more important to them like a squirrel, it doesn't matter how much training they have had. 

Go find yourself a B.T., then tell me just how easy it is..BTW that is the reason why so many are in rescue, not easily trained and skin issues. Don't preach to someone who trained horses for over 25 years, these dogs are not like most.


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## PunkyPug

Liz said:


> Personally I think that again these are just tools and the lack of education is the problem. I have seen uneducated people use all sorts of collars and harnesses and the outcome is pretty much the same - an unpleasant walk, an unhappy dog and possible injury.
> 
> Much as I would like a perfect solution all I can do is make sure my puppies and dogs that I care for whether through training or pet sitting learn how to walk properly on leash. This is yet another reason why my puppies never go to new homes before 12 weeks. I get to teach them how to walk politely and pay attention to the handler. They learn very young how rude it is to ignore their person. We use martingales on all pups and all my babies are still walked on martingales (even the ones placed in their own homes) but only because of their skinny little heads. Dogs we pet sit will learn in a just a few days how to walk nicely and it seems to stick pretty well especially because we show the owner how towork with theri dog and how to use their collar of choice or harness correctly and efficiently. Anyway JMHO.


Would you care to share how you teach these dogs to walk properly? I'm amazed at them picking it up in a few days. My pug is my fastest learner, getting it at a week. My doberman.....atleast a month. Stubborn bugger/squirrel lover xD


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## RedneckCowgirl

whiteleo said:


> Don't preach to someone who trained horses for over 25 years, these dogs are not like most.


Its possible, promise. Not sure why you brought up horses, because training horses is NOTHING like training dogs. Prey vs predator. I've also trained horses (only got about 6 or 7 years experience though) and dogs. I might not have owned a BT exactly but I've worked with enough dogs of all different breeds or mixes to know that any dog can be trained to walk calmly on a leash, no matter the distractions

And since you brought horses into it, its a lot like training a stud. He can goof off and be studish in his pasture BUT as soon as a person comes into the pasture/stall/ wherever he needs to know to be a gentleman. Sure, there are mares over there that he wants to flirt with that probably seem loads better then hanging out with some human. To bad.


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## whiteleo

RedneckCowgirl said:


> Its possible, promise. Not sure why you brought up horses, because training horses is NOTHING like training dogs. Prey vs predator. I've also trained horses (only got about 6 or 7 years experience though) and dogs. I might not have owned a BT exactly but I've worked with enough dogs of all different breeds or mixes to know that any dog can be trained to walk calmly on a leash, no matter the distractions
> 
> And since you brought horses into it, its a lot like training a stud. He can goof off and be studish in his pasture BUT as soon as a person comes into the pasture/stall/ wherever he needs to know to be a gentleman. Sure, there are mares over there that he wants to flirt with that probably seem loads better then hanging out with some human. To bad.


So, do you walk that stud with just a lead rope....NOPE! You either have a chain over his nose or a lip chain, that definitely will get their attention and no, I'm not willing to resort to things I wouldn't want done to me on my dogs. We are going to have to come to impasse at this juncture. My dogs don't lunge at other dogs, walk quietly on walks as other dogs, usually little ones bark and growl as we walk by and they ignore them, but given a chance in the foreseeable future if they decide to go running after a squirrel, I say "go get em"


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## RedneckCowgirl

whiteleo said:


> So, do you walk that stud with just a lead rope....NOPE! You either have a chain over his nose or a lip chain, that definitely will get their attention and no, I'm not willing to resort to things I wouldn't want done to me on my dogs. We are going to have to come to impasse at this juncture. My dogs don't lunge at other dogs, walk quietly on walks as other dogs, usually little ones bark and growl as we walk by and they ignore them, but given a chance in the foreseeable future if they decide to go running after a squirrel, I say "go get em"


If you have to have a lip/nose chain to walk a stud, that stud needs more training, IMHO. I've worked with quite a few studs and I've never once had to use a chain. Plain, flat halter works just fine.


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## whiteleo

Then, I'm sorry but I have absolutely no respect for someone who is going to put themselves or others at risk...If your handling studs with just a lead rope, I hope whoever owns the barn has great insurance...


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## RedneckCowgirl

whiteleo said:


> Then, I'm sorry but I have absolutely no respect for someone who is going to put themselves or others at risk...If your handling studs with just a lead rope, I hope whoever owns the barn has great insurance...


And I have no respect for someone who uses their animals breed as an excuse for anything, so I guess we are even. I've never once had an issue with any stud that I handled. Most were even housed in stalls at night surrounded by mares, and not one accidental pregnancy! *gasp*


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## whiteleo

RedneckCowgirl said:


> And I have no respect for someone who uses their animals breed as an excuse for anything, so I guess we are even. I've never once had an issue with any stud that I handled. Most were even housed in stalls at night surrounded by mares, and not one accidental pregnancy! *gasp*



You might have an issue, but I bet the owners would, or the barn when something did happen and it turned out to be your fault...Be smart and cover your a** when handling stallions. Your attitude about that makes me think you are so young and have no idea........


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## RedneckCowgirl

whiteleo said:


> You might have an issue, but I bet the owners would, or the barn when something did happen and it turned out to be your fault...Be smart and cover your a** when handling stallions. Your attitude about that makes me think you are so young and have no idea........


I may be young, but that doesn't change anything. Studs are treated like any other horse. Yes, with a little more caution and less leeway, but they are handled the same and expected to act the same. The last place I worked had three studs on the property. Two grew up together and were pastured together, the other was a bit older, so he was housed alone. BUT every horse on the property was handled the exact same, and expected to act the same, from weanlings to the seniors, mares, geldings and studs.


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## PunkyPug

Okay. Lets chill out and agree to disagree before this becomes yet ANOTHER thread that gets closed because you cannot just smile, nod and go along your merry way.


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## Dude and Bucks Mamma

I am another person who doesn't accept breed as an excuse. I have a coonhound. You want a critter chaser? Mine is BRED to chase critters. That is what they are still actively used for. However, I expect him to walk on a leash just like my collie. Being a coonhound is no excuse to be an idiot just because there's a squirrel over there. 

Any breed can be taught to walk on a leash without pulling. I don't allow Buck to drag me all over the place. I don't allow him to attempt to take off whenever he pleases. He is to respect and pay attention to me, coonhound or not.


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## RedneckCowgirl

PunkyPug said:


> Okay. Lets chill out and agree to disagree before this becomes yet ANOTHER thread that gets closed because you cannot just smile, nod and go along your merry way.


No worries.


Besides, a little healthy debate is good. :smile:


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## creek817

Well, to be honest I had never though all that hard about all this stuff. I use a martingale collar on Dobby for training (obedience class), and normally a flat leather collar if we go anywhere else, althought lately we've bene using the martingale for that too, just because that's what I've had with me (I keep a martingale and a leash in my purse for when I drive a vehicle other than my own, so I'm not without one!). He has a harness for his seatbelt. He has never tried to get out of any of them. 

But at home (90% of the time, since I work from home) he has nothing on. I guess after all this, I'm glad I live somewhere where I don't have to take him for on leash walks multiple times per day. He gets plenty of exercise on our 112 acres, and even when we do go on walks from home, he's usually still off lead.

For the record, I also agree that breed is no excuse. My mom breeds English Foxhounds, and most of hers are out of control because she has Rheumatiod Arthritis (and way too many dogs!) and they have no manners. But the two hounds I have had had great manners, on and off leash. Just takes time and training!


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## Liz

Punky Pug,
Nope, I have no desire to "share".
Being that every dog is different there are many different ways I have taught them to heel. Too many too list and the behavior is also sometimes broken down into so many parts it is difficult and frankly I don't have the time to write a book about every step and method used. Twenty five years in obedience training and behavior modification make it second nature in my home and we get 6 - 12 dogs per year for training when all else has failed. I think the biggest component is to make it fun and try to make them want to do the behavior. Kind of like men - make them think it was their idea all along. 

The two hardest I must say have been B.T.'s and one absolutely nutsy, badly bred, hyper active pit bull pup. They did take a good long time and I would have never taken them into an obedience ring. I have never had the opportunity to work with multiple B.T.'s but could imagine pulling my hair out. They do have awesome personalities though and can be very sweet but what stinkers to train.


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## Savage Destiny

whiteleo said:


> I do keep their martigale's on when I use the EW, just don't have anything hooked to it.


Well what's the point then? You should look into a Liberty's Attachment:
Ella's Lead - Liberty's Attachment

To hook the martingale to the leash, so that if they slip their harnesses you still have them. 

That said, I'm definitely on the "breed is not an excuse" bandwagon. You've probably not met a really drivey Pit Bull if you think they're easy dogs to train out of prey drive! Mine certainly isn't "more susceptible" to training. She takes CONSTANT hard work to keep decently behaved, because she's stubborn, smart, and has absolutely zero need to please. Not a whit. I have to work with her and reinforce how I want her to behave all the time to make her realize that it's not "her way or the highway". 

I've also worked with some BTs. They're stubborn, bratty, and definitely want their way. But they're not untrainable.


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## whiteleo

Savage Destiny said:


> Well what's the point then? You should look into a Liberty's Attachment:
> Ella's Lead - Liberty's Attachment
> 
> To hook the martingale to the leash, so that if they slip their harnesses you still have them.
> 
> That said, I'm definitely on the "breed is not an excuse" bandwagon. You've probably not met a really drivey Pit Bull if you think they're easy dogs to train out of prey drive! Mine certainly isn't "more susceptible" to training. She takes CONSTANT hard work to keep decently behaved, because she's stubborn, smart, and has absolutely zero need to please. Not a whit. I have to work with her and reinforce how I want her to behave all the time to make her realize that it's not "her way or the highway".
> 
> I've also worked with some BTs. They're stubborn, bratty, and definitely want their way. But they're not untrainable.



Mine aren't untrainable, but I have them where I want them...They leave things alone when I say "leave it", they don't lunge at other dogs, and when I walk them with the EW, they don't pull. They don't have shoulder issues because they don't pull with the EW on. I'm perfectly happy with it the way it is. I work to give my dogs a life of happiness, they are my children. I don't have a problem with how they are and either do the people who walk their dogs around mine, so I'm good!

If they were acting like idiots when out on walks then I think I'd have a problem, but they are well behaved, unless of course a pack of squirrels cross their path and climb a tree. But I will look into the liberty attachment, and the reason they wear their martingale collars is because their rabies tag and their county license is attached to it. You see I walk in very public places with my dogs and if they aren't licensed then we get a ticket.


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## whiteleo

Dude and Bucks Mamma said:


> I am another person who doesn't accept breed as an excuse. I have a coonhound. You want a critter chaser? Mine is BRED to chase critters. That is what they are still actively used for. However, I expect him to walk on a leash just like my collie. Being a coonhound is no excuse to be an idiot just because there's a squirrel over there.
> 
> Any breed can be taught to walk on a leash without pulling. I don't allow Buck to drag me all over the place. I don't allow him to attempt to take off whenever he pleases. He is to respect and pay attention to me, coonhound or not.


I suppose if I had as much time on my hands as you do then I too could achieve this but I work almost 60 hrs. a week


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## catahoulamom

When walking my dogs alone I'll use their martingale-style Mendota slip lead, or when I take them out to the beach or a store. However when I walk them all together they all wear their Easy Walks backwards (with the clip on their back). After savage destiny mentioned the shoulder issues it worried me so I turned the harnesses around (so it doesnt pull their shoulder to the side) and they still walk nicely on them. I totally agree that the easy walk is a crutch and not necessary if your dog is trained to walk properly. Mine walk much better alone than together but we still do pack walks late at night when they haven't had enough exercise for the day. 

I look forward to the day I can just hook all their leashes up on their collars and go! It's still a work in progress though. I like Halti's products but haven't used them on mine since Finn had a panic attack as a puppy trying to get his off and scratched his eye causing a horrible infection. Wahhh.


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## xellil

whiteleo said:


> I suppose if I had as much time on my hands as you do then I too could achieve this but I work almost 60 hrs. a week


Actually, when training Rebel I was working 50-60 hours a week and my trainer told me we just needed a few minutes a day, and he turned out to be right. 

Of course, I believe in prong collars. The reason I went to a prong collar in the first place was because Rebel was injuring himself (and me) on whatever we used - halters, harnesses, those face things like bridles. We couldn't walk, period, which was kind of a pain also. I got tired of wallering around with him in the street.

I believe without the prong collar Rebel would have never walked properly, never learned recall, never been able to walk off leash.

He's never had damage from it - in fact, his flat collar has caused alot more damage because he has brittle hair and he's bald where his flat collar has rubbed all the hair off. But then, he's never unsupervised with a prong collar on. It was never on longer than necessary. He actually hasn't used it in over a year except for the vet's office, where he is still reactive in close quarters when he is restrained.

I know you don't like them, but I do think they were a lifesaver for us.


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## tuckersmom20

The walking nicely on leash is something I've been working on forever with my boys.

Duke does walk better than Tucker. 
If duke starts to pull on a flat collar.. i just say his name and he backs off. 
I used a prong collar with him for 6 months and now he's much better on flat collar.

With Tucker, he's been wearing a prong since he was 1.. he's now 3.
He has always been bound and determined to drag me down the street in a flat collar.
I used to use his prong periodically, but one night at his trainers he was wear a flat collar... a dog went by and he reacted so quickly, that his trachea has been damaged.
I tried the halti... he would throw himself on the ground... finally got him walking with it and he started loosing fur on his nose.
Tried easy walk.... ya ok.. he thought he was a sled dog.
So we're back at the prong (properly fitted)... it prevents him from damaging his throat even more and helps control.
I am slowly transitioning him onto the dead ring on the prong though.


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## Celt

Everybody has a different "level" of expectations/training that they are willing to live with and as long as nobodies getting hurt, it's all good. I've written before about how my boys are the worse trained dogs I've ever own. Hades, I don't even think they've even heard the command heel while all the others I've own had been taught heel and were expected to walk in that position unless told otherwise. Some of us, like to have a little extra "insurance" when walking our pups. Double collars, collars and harnesses, easy walk harnesses, etc for a just in case ___ happens. Which, hey, if it gives you "peace of mind", cool. 
I will say that breed (and, more so, personality) does affect how easy/difficult training is. My iggies are "softer" dogs than the hybrids I've owned. With the boys, as long as I give occassional "refresher" lessons, they maintain their training easily. The hybrids, on the other hand, had to be almost constantly "in training" or I had to start all over again. One of the reasons I would not ever (willingly) own a "nordic" breed again is that I do not have the energy, time or will to deal with their training needs (imo) anymore.


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## magicre

bubba, tho small, is a mighty dog, who thinks he is bigger than he is. 

we used a martingale on him because when he wanted to go somewhere, he went.....he reminded me of a tiny pulling machine.....

when i'm not well, he and malia are treadmill dogs...it gives them that extra exercise they need to maintain their girlish figures.....

but i worried about bubba's trachea. they are so prone to collapsed tracheas, these pugs.....that i finally caved, just for the treadmill.....and got a puppia harness.

i will never go back to a collar for him.

malia still wears the martingale when we're walking or exercising, but bubba? that puppia is the best thing since white bread. 

FOR US.

each dog responds differently, which is why different collars and harnesses are made.

he's not been able to slip out of this one and it's soft and easy on the shoulder. 

i, who hated harnesses, am now a fan.


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## xellil

I agree Re - when we got Snorkels it was a cough-fest. She just could not walk on a harness because anything pressing at all on the front on her chest makes her cough, apparently from her enlarged heart pushing a little bit on her windpipe in the first place. 

And training her to walk nicely was something I decided not to do. She gets very stressed out when being asked to do something for a treat, so it just wasn't worth it.

So I found these, with the D-ring right in the middle of her back - it doesn't make her cough when she pulls and the pressure covers so much of her body nothing is stressed. It also attaches to her car seat. The only problem is right now when it's 100 degrees it's really to much coverage and kinda hot for her.


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## magicre

that's why i like the puppia harness...very soft against the chest...and doesn't cut the legs, either.

i prefer collars.....and i swear the harness on the treadmilly finally taught this dog how to walk without pulling, for he does not pull now on walks. 

as long as he doesn't pull, i will keep him in this particular harness.


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## PunkyPug

Liz said:


> Punky Pug,
> Nope, I have no desire to "share".
> Being that every dog is different there are many different ways I have taught them to heel. Too many too list and the behavior is also sometimes broken down into so many parts it is difficult and frankly I don't have the time to write a book about every step and method used. Twenty five years in obedience training and behavior modification make it second nature in my home and we get 6 - 12 dogs per year for training when all else has failed. I think the biggest component is to make it fun and try to make them want to do the behavior. Kind of like men - make them think it was their idea all along.
> 
> The two hardest I must say have been B.T.'s and one absolutely nutsy, badly bred, hyper active pit bull pup. They did take a good long time and I would have never taken them into an obedience ring. I have never had the opportunity to work with multiple B.T.'s but could imagine pulling my hair out. They do have awesome personalities though and can be very sweet but what stinkers to train.


No biggie. I assumed being a trainer you'd have different approaches to every dog. No harm in asking


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## bernadettelevis

First of all, i also don't handle my stud with a chain. It takes some training but he behaves better than most horses i know.

And most of the time i also use a harness. The thing with the shoulders is of course true, and if a dog is a very strong puller, everything will "harm" him. However, i like to ask the question, which does less harm? And i think that this point goes clearly to the harness, so the shoulder thing is not really an argument for me, against harnesses. 
On the other hand it is true that most dogs slip out of them pretty easily. My dog doesn't try to slip out, so no problem there. But i do have a WeimxGSP sometimes who pulls terribly and training him wouldn't make any sense since i only have him like 2 weeks a year (always only a few days) and his owners have no interest in training him. So i use a soft harness and a backup martingalecollar.


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## Dude and Bucks Mamma

whiteleo said:


> I suppose if I had as much time on my hands as you do then I too could achieve this but I work almost 60 hrs. a week


Really? I don't do nothing and just work my dogs all day. I have other things to do to. I have enough that needs doing to keep me busy 60 hours a week. I don't normally go out with the dogs unless Nick's home anyways and he works WAY more than 60 hours a week. I DO actually have other things to do other than play with my dogs all day, Robin.


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## RedneckCowgirl

I work 40ish hours a week, take the dogs on adventures every day, and only formally train for about 5-10 minutes a couple times a week. However, I take every opportunity to do anything as a training experience.


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## magicre

xellil said:


> I agree Re - when we got Snorkels it was a cough-fest. She just could not walk on a harness because anything pressing at all on the front on her chest makes her cough, apparently from her enlarged heart pushing a little bit on her windpipe in the first place.
> 
> And training her to walk nicely was something I decided not to do. She gets very stressed out when being asked to do something for a treat, so it just wasn't worth it.
> 
> So I found these, with the D-ring right in the middle of her back - it doesn't make her cough when she pulls and the pressure covers so much of her body nothing is stressed. It also attaches to her car seat. The only problem is right now when it's 100 degrees it's really to much coverage and kinda hot for her.


hard to look at her in that dress, but basically, that's what the puppia has, too.....although i can see it would be a little snug against her chest, unlike the one you have.....


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## Caty M

Most people with sighthounds use the wide cloth martingales so they spread the pressure over a wider area of the neck. As I said, I've never been able to find a harness that fits an Italian greyhound properly. I've tried those cloth type harnesses and even when properly tightened they bunch and move around on her stomach.


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