# do all kibble companies use 4d meats



## RCTRIPLEFRESH5 (Feb 11, 2010)

including orijen/acana?
and what about denaturing?


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## greyshadows (Jan 30, 2012)

I don't believe Acana or Orijen (as per their ingredients and website) do and I don't think Fromm would either.I'm sure there are others also.


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## Tobi (Mar 18, 2011)

> All fresh fish are passed ‘fit for human consumption’





> Our whole eggs are table grade eggs that are ‘fit for human consumption





> All ORIJEN fresh meats (chicken, fish, turkey, eggs) are of table quality and passed fit for human consumption before arriving at Champion.
> 
> Our chicken, fish and turkey meals are produced exclusively from animals that are certified as fit for human consumption by the Canadian Food Inspection Agency (CFIA).


Champion Petfoods | F.A.Q


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

:usa::usa::usa::usa::usa::usa:


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## CorgiPaws (Mar 31, 2009)

I think most do, at least to some extent, but not all of them do. 
I trust Fromm (and wish it were locally available so I could recommend it to my clients more!!) Champion, and Honest Kitchen in terms of quality probably more than any other company.


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## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

Some say they don't. I don't know how much or even IF those kinds of statements are regulated by the government.

If you trust the companies, then you can believe that some do not use 4D animals because they say they don't.


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## Tobi (Mar 18, 2011)

magicre said:


> i don't think it would be fair to say that all kibble companies use 4d animals.
> 
> i do believe there are some who do.
> 
> i also know raw feeders who buy 4d meat.


I've fed raw 4D meats... 

"Dead, Diseased, Dying, Disabled" maybe 5d could be Decaying!? :thumb:

We fed a road killed squirrel and rabbit... I've also forgotten meats in the refrigerator for weeks which I would very much put into the "decaying" category :lol:


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## DaViking (Sep 27, 2011)

xellil said:


> Some say they don't. I don't know how much or even IF those kinds of statements are regulated by the government.
> 
> If you trust the companies, then you can believe that some do not use 4D animals because they say they don't.


What do you think would happen to a tiny company like Fromm (or similar) if they where caught telling blatant lies? Do you think they would risk it all for a lie that is not needed in the first place? The big multinational corporations can get away with murder, Fromm can't. Trust and quality is their ticket to success since they are unable to compete on volume and price.
On the other hand, 4d or not, doesn't mean much without details. Can be absolutely fine for a carnivore or it can be bad, but the easy way is just to stay clear of course.


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## RCTRIPLEFRESH5 (Feb 11, 2010)

Tobi said:


> Champion Petfoods | F.A.Q


key word used is ''before arriving at orijen''
isnt the word human grade a hoax?
ive heard orijen and acana don't denature their meats either.


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## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

DaViking said:


> What do you think would happen to a tiny company like Fromm (or similar) if they where caught telling blatant lies? Do you think they would risk it all for a lie that is not needed in the first place? The big multinational corporations can get away with murder, Fromm can't. Trust and quality is their ticket to success since they are unable to compete on volume and price.
> On the other hand, 4d or not, doesn't mean much without details. Can be absolutely fine for a carnivore or it can be bad, but the easy way is just to stay clear of course.


I don't know. It's always a risk vs. reward thing. What is the risk of getting caught vs. the profit? I can't answer that. 

Companies have done alot stupider things. if I trusted Fromm or any other company, I would believe what they say.

And stuff like the melamine - the companies didn't know about it, but their quality control was horrible. The supply chain has alot more to do with it than the manufacturing process, and how carefully is that watched? Beats me, I'm not in the industry.

But I would guess that a company could be paying for higher quality stuff and getting lower quality stuff. Way too many people are willing to cut corners if they think they can get away with it.


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## DaViking (Sep 27, 2011)

xellil said:


> I don't know. It's always a risk vs. reward thing. What is the risk of getting caught vs. the profit? I can't answer that.
> 
> Companies have done alot stupider things. if I trusted Fromm or any other company, I would believe what they say.
> 
> ...


I agree with you in that there probably are any number of companies across the board who try to cut corners and use as cheap ingredients as possible, just as there are those who have nothing to gain from cheap tricks and withholding information. You'll find dishonest and opportunistic people everywhere, specially if you can turn a buck in something like super-premium pet food.


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## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

DaViking said:


> I agree with you in that there probably are any number of companies across the board who try to cut cornders and use as cheap ingredients as possible, just as there are those who have nothing to gain from cheap tricks and withholding information. You'll find dishonest and opportunistic people everywhere, specially if you can turn a buck in something like super-premium pet food.


I admit, I am becoming more cynical by the day. People know dogs are dying from the jerky. The FDA just named three brands have been named as causing illness and death. yet no recall. SOMEONE is in someone else's pocket.

I admit, it's two of the larger companies. But if humans were reporting this, those things would be recalled even if they can't pinpoint the poison in it. But it's dogs, so oh well. Keep that money rolling in - not EVERYONE reads the news.


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## DaViking (Sep 27, 2011)

xellil said:


> SOMEONE is in someone else's pocket.


It's much bigger than that, it's systemic and not likely to change... ever. The only thing Joe and Jane Blow can do is to stay educated and informed, and not dumb down.


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## Tobi (Mar 18, 2011)

RCTRIPLEFRESH5 said:


> key word used is ''before arriving at orijen''
> isnt the word human grade a hoax?
> ive heard orijen and acana don't denature their meats either.


well... since they are key words, i'll spell it out a little better... 

4D= dead, dying, diseased, or disabled.

hopefully the meat they receive is already dead.
the meats aren't diseased, because they are already dead.
they aren't dying because... they are already dead.
They cannot be disabled... because they are already dead.


You can check their website and see if they Denature, i scoured their site long ago for many things, and denaturing i've never found. you can always shoot them an e-mail or phone call, I've exchanged e-mails with their reps plenty of times.

Human Grade simply means that it can be sold for Human consumption which means that it is inspected, and nothing more. it means that the meat for feeding wasn't in the same bucket as the feces. idk how a term can be a hoax.


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## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

there IS no such term as "human grade" meat. it is, of course, another marketing ploy to make people think they are getting something of better quality.

The grades of meat are choice, prime, select, standard, commercial, utility, cutter, and canner. 

The USDA grades nothing "HUMAN GRADE." It is ANOTHER LIE.


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## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

Oh, and another thing. I buy ungraded meats. No inspection at all by the USDA. And i believe it is much better meat than I get in the grocery store; it may have a few feathers on it, or some blood clots, but it's grass-fed meat.

I would much prefer that over most of the graded USDA meat. I really doubt "prime" or "choice" grades are going into dog food. More like "canner" meat which is the scraps of meat blown off with water from a cow carcass and made into mush for hot dogs. Humans can eat it, but is it good meat???


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## Unosmom (May 3, 2009)

Champion does not use denatured meals in their food. Theres a certification called EPHIS/EU meaning the food must be passed as fit for human consumption before its imported to other counties, therefore it cannot be denatured. 



> The European regulations state "The legislation prohibits the use of any rendered protein which was obtained from animal carcasses that were unfit for human consumption as an animal feed ingredient or for pet food.


Is your choice of pet food APHIS EU Certified?


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## RCTRIPLEFRESH5 (Feb 11, 2010)

i thought diseased meant meat from an animal that had a disease before dying
I also thought disabled meant the animal was disabled before dying.
Also it is important to note if the dogs are euthanized or not..doesn't that go under diseased?
They have never respond to my emails/ phone calls, it seems it is a hit or miss with their customer service:tape2:


Tobi said:


> well... since they are key words, i'll spell it out a little better...
> 
> 4D= dead, dying, diseased, or disabled.
> 
> ...


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## RCTRIPLEFRESH5 (Feb 11, 2010)

ya..although it is comforting to hear they do not denature the meat.


xellil said:


> there IS no such term as "human grade" meat. it is, of course, another marketing ploy to make people think they are getting something of better quality.
> 
> The grades of meat are choice, prime, select, standard, commercial, utility, cutter, and canner.
> 
> The USDA grades nothing "HUMAN GRADE." It is ANOTHER LIE.


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## MollyWoppy (Mar 19, 2010)

xellil said:


> And stuff like the melamine - the companies didn't know about it, but their quality control was horrible.


Sure, I believe they never knew about it, but when they got hundreds of reports about animals dying from eating their foods, and still wouldn't issue a recall. Or would issue update reports on a Friday night knowing it was the least likely time for news outlets to pick it up, then that is blatant disrespect and unforgivable. (sorry, you shouldn't' mention the melamine recall, I get all upset again!)


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

:usa::usa::usa::usa::usa::usa:


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## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

MollyWoppy said:


> Sure, I believe they never knew about it, but when they got hundreds of reports about animals dying from eating their foods, and still wouldn't issue a recall. Or would issue update reports on a Friday night knowing it was the least likely time for news outlets to pick it up, then that is blatant disrespect and unforgivable. (sorry, you shouldn't' mention the melamine recall, I get all upset again!)


I agree - they didn't know about it at first, or plan for it to be put in the food. But when they found out, they ignored it, just like with the jerky.

And how many of us had heard of melamine then? I bet when they identify whatever is in there today, it's going to be something put in there on purpose to minimize costs and maximize profits. Just like the melamine.


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## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

magicre said:


> i have heard of ungraded meats....because it's so expensive to get meat graded..be it prime, choice, select, or 4D......but i've never heard of a retailer selling non usda inspected meat....i thought that was law....


I don't believe the raw dog food supplier I use is inspected by the USDA. I could be wrong, but I also don't think My Pet Carnivore is USDA inspected because it's not meant for human consumption.

It all has a big label on it - NOT FOR HUMAN CONSUMPTION.


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

:usa::usa::usa::usa::usa::usa:


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## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

magicre said:


> ok. now i'm confused...they have to mark proteins as not for human consumption if it's going to be dog food...even if it is.....
> 
> the food that i'm buying from a ranch sells to restaurants so it's very much human consumable but it won't be labelled as such because it's being sold as dog food, which means they can sell it cheaper.
> 
> ...


or me!! I may be making incorrect assumptions here. I just figured because of the labels, they are not inspected. However, upon thinking about it, they ALL don't have that label. 

The cod and salmon doesn't. Nor do the turkey necks. It's the ground up stuff, and the whole chickens, and the organs. So maybe some of it is inspected.

I know Texas Tripe also sells "people food."


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

:usa::usa::usa::usa::usa::usa:


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## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

magicre said:


> y
> 
> most of the stuff we buy from our co op is dog food so we can buy it cheaper but it's better than any meat we can get at a grocery store.


I feel that way too. You can tell by looking at a piece of meat whether it's decent or not. Actually My Pet Carnivore I thought had alot better quality meat. Texas Tripe, not so much. I'm not sure I'd eat alot of it. Especially the ground meat. It doesn't have a good texture - it's paste rather than ground meat - and it doesn't say "whole ground chicken" - it just says "chicken with bones." And no other meat, like the turkey and goat i got from MPC.

I'm looking on craigslist to see if I can find a grinder, just because I don't like not trusting what's in that ground stuff.


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

:usa::usa::usa::usa::usa::usa:


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## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

I actually didn't worry about it with MPC because it was ground very coarse and i could see the actual meat, tendons, and bones. This new stuff DOES look like pink slime!!!


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

:usa::usa::usa::usa::usa::usa:


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## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

magicre said:


> i was just noting that the news report i saw says that the usda does not insist that supermarkets reveal that pink slime is being used in meats sold to humans....and this is the usda.
> 
> one such store that uses it is walmart...and they don't have a problem with it, because, as the lady who is the spokesman for the company that produces this crap.....says...'it's meat. it's beef. we don't have to reveal any foreign ingredient because it's beef.'
> 
> i almost fell over, because geez, how about revealing the ammonia that is sprayed on pink slime.


Oh yes, none of us need to know that our hamburger is full of trash crap that would otherwise go to the rendering plant, treated with ammonia, and put in what we THINK is ground beef.

And actually, it's sold as ground beef but that's not what it is. It's sludge parts. There's nothing "ground" about it. Absolutely false advertising, in my opinion. Kind of like my "ground" chicken that's actually a goo.

I won't buy ground beef again. I don't know how we'll make spaghetti, but I guess it will be meatless. That's about all we ever used it for anyway. 

And I think most of us knew Wal-Mart meat was low quality. We just didn't guess HOW low.


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## LilasMom (Mar 10, 2012)

It isn't all food stores though right? Just the places like Walmart?


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## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

LilasMom said:


> It isn't all food stores though right? Just the places like Walmart?


One article I read said Costco and a couple of other places (can't remember which ones, sorry) responded to emails saying they did not use pink goo. However, about 10 major chains (including Wal-Mart) did not respond.

So maybe there are some that do not use it. I know places like Whole Foods don't use it, that's pricey but alot better quality.


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## LilasMom (Mar 10, 2012)

What parts of the cow do would a "healthy" ground meat use? Is it just like ground up steak or something?


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## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

LilasMom said:


> What parts of the cow do would a "healthy" ground meat use? Is it just like ground up steak or something?


I'm sure it's the scrap parts, and the cheap stuff is mostly fat. But I do believe it is supposed to be some sort of muscle meat.


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

:usa::usa::usa::usa::usa::usa:


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## RCTRIPLEFRESH5 (Feb 11, 2010)

pink slime is mechanically separated meat right?
im only going to buy organic...good article....


magicre said:


> you can buy ground beef.....ask the butcher which ground beef is the trim from what they are cutting.
> 
> there is nothing wrong with that.
> 
> ...


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

:usa::usa::usa::usa::usa:


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## RCTRIPLEFRESH5 (Feb 11, 2010)

magicre said:


> no. pink slime is not mechanically separated meat.
> 
> the article tells you what it is.....


article says no part is waste and it is sprayed with ammonia...i know that MSM is also called pink slime so i was asing if this particular pink slime is referring to the same thing.

ainkiller:


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

:usa::usa::usa::usa::usa::usa:


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## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

This article says this about pink slime:



> Now there’s a way for other lean parts—not just muscle tissue—to make it into your hamburger. The marketing names for pink slime include “Lean Beef Trimmings” and “Lean Finely Textured Beef.” What those names mask is that *pink slime is composed of connective tissue, including tendons, ligaments, and intestines, combined with stuff that’s fallen onto the slaughterhouse floor.*


USDA: Let Them Eat Garbage :: Eat The State!

Sounds like what's in most dog food!


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## BeagleCountry (Jan 20, 2012)

xellil said:


> Texas Tripe, not so much. I'm not sure I'd eat alot of it. Especially the ground meat. It doesn't have a good texture - it's paste rather than ground meat - and it doesn't say "whole ground chicken" - it just says "chicken with bones." And no other meat, like the turkey and goat i got from MPC.


If you have or know of a raw fed cat offer it to her/him. My cat has been a real trooper when it comes to raw. Not picky and barely any problems. She had eaten ground beef previously. Not knowing about the ammonia and pink slime I offered her some ground chuck from a chub. (Having never bought a chub before I was surprised by the contents. It was mushy. More like paste. Not at all what I'd expect from ground beef.) Shay-Shay was disgusted. She did not want to be in the room with the food. Not sure if it was a trace of ammonia which humans may not smell or the added pink slime but she knew it was not right. Thank goodness she was served first as I imagine the beagles would have eaten it without hesitation.

I believe the government told us DDT was safe. It takes life threatening illness and death to rectify these situations. With something like ammonia and pink slime in the food it may take a generation for the organ damage, possible birth defects and other physical and mental health problems to become fully recognized. All for the almighty dollar.


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

:usa::usa::usa::usa::usa::usa:


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## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

BeagleCountry said:


> If you have or know of a raw fed cat offer it to her/him. My cat has been a real trooper when it comes to raw. Not picky and barely any problems. She had eaten ground beef previously. Not knowing about the ammonia and pink slime I offered her some ground chuck from a chub. (Having never bought a chub before I was surprised by the contents. It was mushy. More like paste. Not at all what I'd expect from ground beef.) Shay-Shay was disgusted. She did not want to be in the room with the food. Not sure if it was a trace of ammonia which humans may not smell or the added pink slime but she knew it was not right. Thank goodness she was served first as I imagine the beagles would have eaten it without hesitation.


That's exactly how it is. I talked to the fellow and he said it's because it has alot of fat in it and it was ground after it was totally thawed (huh?), that there's nothing added. But I've bought many many pounds of ground chicken w/bone and organ from My Pet Carnivore and it looks like real meat ground up, not pink goo.

He's taking it back. I'm gonna trade it for some meaty bones. I'll either get a grinder or get the ground shipped from My Pet Carnivore. I just can't in good conscious feed that mess to my dogs.

I need a cat!!!! Cats know these things.


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## RCTRIPLEFRESH5 (Feb 11, 2010)

i have a question...
everything i've read on pink slime states that all MSM(mechanically separated chicken aka pink slime)...products must have ''mechannically separate meat'' in their ingredients listings

well i just looked up tyson s well as BK chicken..an they don;t say it..and i know they use it...they do say they use rib meat though..is tht the same? I just want to know what to look for in the list.
i love frozen chicken..an organic is too pricey lol.
btw magicre i may not be right after all..i looked it up and in addition to MSM..there is also BLBT which is referred to as pink slime
mcdonals doesnt use msm or blbt but they put ammonia in their buns LOL


magicre said:


> i stand corrected.
> 
> you are correct.
> 
> Andy Bellatti: Beyond Pink Slime


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

:usa::usa::usa::usa::usa::usa::usa:


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## Yorkie967 (Mar 13, 2012)

RCTRIPLEFRESH5 said:


> i love frozen chicken..an organic is too pricey lol.


I was just at walmart tonight and saw that they had 3 brands of chicken: foster farms, pilgrims, and this last one *Fircrest farms* is organic, always never frozen, no hormones, steroids or antibiotics and get this only $1.80 per lb and it wasn't a sale price. That's really reasonable and affordable since yucky zacky or foster farms is about the same price. They had it packages of drumsticks and whole birds.


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## RCTRIPLEFRESH5 (Feb 11, 2010)

no chicken nuggets? lol
btw googled it, and fostr farms and fincrst are same company?
found this is this good http://www.pilgrims.com/products/productinfo.aspx?id=160no


Yorkie967 said:


> I was just at walmart tonight and saw that they had 3 brands of chicken: foster farms, pilgrims, and this last one *Fircrest farms* is organic, always never frozen, no hormones, steroids or antibiotics and get this only $1.80 per lb and it wasn't a sale price. That's really reasonable and affordable since yucky zacky or foster farms is about the same price. They had it packages of drumsticks and whole birds.


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## Yorkie967 (Mar 13, 2012)

RCTRIPLEFRESH5 said:


> no chicken nuggets? lol
> btw googled it, and fostr farms and fincrst are same company?
> found this is this good http://www.pilgrims.com/products/productinfo.aspx?id=160no


I highly doubt foster farms is any relation to Fircrest farms. The Pilgrims brand I didn't check the price but it didn't look bad. I would go with that if they didn't carry Fircrest. Anything as long as it's not Zacky or Foster's. If you need something for special occasion or feel like splurging go with Mary's chickens at Whole Foods. It is bit pricey @ $3.25/lb but it's about as as good as it gets besides raising your own chickens in your backyard. But seriously, you can't really do better than Fircrest farms for organic chickens @ $1.80/lb at any walmart.


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## RCTRIPLEFRESH5 (Feb 11, 2010)

why is foster farms bad?
btw pilgrim has ha a lot of rcalls from what im reading so thts out.
Delivering the freshest, highest-quality poultry products is dependent on having local poultry ranches and processing plants so that products get to the grocery store in a matter of hours. In 1987, Foster Farms acquired Fircrest Farms in Creswell, Oregon, introducing Oregonians to the fresh, natural taste of Foster Farms chicken. With time-proven methods of raising and delivering the finest products possible, the Fircrest acquisition was the first of many in the Pacific Northwest. Today, Foster Farms is the leading poultry brand in the region.
http://fosterfarms.com/about/history.asp?section=bb&subpage=3


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## Yorkie967 (Mar 13, 2012)

Well ok allow me to say why. I use to buy foster farms and zacky during my college years back then I didn't care or know anything about organic or not. And every time the chickens were so fatty I would have to spend about 10 min to trim all the excess yellow fat. And the skin was always thick and fatty and it was evident when I made broth so much fat surfaced that I spent so much time skimming the fat on top. Lastly, the chicken meat itself was not very elastic and old and just didn't taste that good. Keep in mind this is all I knew so I just assume all chickens were this way because I lived right behind a mexican market and that's what they had on sale every week. 

Now I didn't know any of that until one day I bought a Rosie organic chicken at whole foods and realize wow this is what real fresh chicken looks and tastes like. The meat was nice, firm and elastic. The skin was white not yellow. When I made broth, very little fat rose to the top. So pretty much ever since then I would just wait until there's a sale at henry's, sprouts, trader joes, etc on organic chicken. And it doesn't have to be 100% organic, something along the lines of: free range. no hormones or steroids, etc is fine. 

I do love the foster farms chickens in the commercials though...they have the best commercials...my favorite was then they went to get tattooes and one of the chicken said: "Dragon? looks like a fire breathing dog". 

As for pilgrims, thanks for heads up. I wasn't planning on buying it anyways, at least when they have Fircrest. I still haven't tried it yet but it does look to me. And you know, if you like Zacky or Foster farms and been happy with them that's fine too.


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## RCTRIPLEFRESH5 (Feb 11, 2010)

are you still going to go with firncrest since they were acquired by foster farms?
and i've actually never heard of any of these brand until you guys brought them up..i used to eat dino buddies by yum foods. Those are pink slime though.


Yorkie967 said:


> Well ok allow me to say why. I use to buy foster farms and zacky during my college years back then I didn't care or know anything about organic or not. And every time the chickens were so fatty I would have to spend about 10 min to trim all the excess yellow fat. And the skin was always thick and fatty and it was evident when I made broth so much fat surfaced that I spent so much time skimming the fat on top. Lastly, the chicken meat itself was not very elastic and old and just didn't taste that good. Keep in mind this is all I knew so I just assume all chickens were this way because I lived right behind a mexican market and that's what they had on sale every week.
> 
> Now I didn't know any of that until one day I bought a Rosie organic chicken at whole foods and realize wow this is what real fresh chicken looks and tastes like. The meat was nice, firm and elastic. The skin was white not yellow. When I made broth, very little fat rose to the top. So pretty much ever since then I would just wait until there's a sale at henry's, sprouts, trader joes, etc on organic chicken. And it doesn't have to be 100% organic, something along the lines of: free range. no hormones or steroids, etc is fine.
> 
> ...


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## Yorkie967 (Mar 13, 2012)

Yes because Fircrest is processed differently, fresh never frozen and no hormones and antibiotics or steroids. It's like porsche being bought out by volkswagon. Porshe is made in another factory.


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## RCTRIPLEFRESH5 (Feb 11, 2010)

Thank you for contacting Pilgrim’s chicken. We appreciate your interest in our products. You can obtain valuable information from our website at Pilgrims.com. 



We do use Mechanically Separated chicken in some of or products.

We do not use pink slime ( this is used primarily in beef products)

We do use ammonia for cleansing purposes.



We process our products under strict USDA inspection and we are proud to offer quality products to the consumers.





Please contact me with any other questions you may have.





Laura A. Baird

Consumer Relations 

800-321-1470

800-683-1968

[email protected]

Visit Pilgrims.com for printable coupons and fun recipes.


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