# What about supplements?



## anifunk1962 (Feb 14, 2009)

I know I read somewhere that dogs don't need supplements but I've read that, if dogs have hip dysplasia, vitamin C and even coconut oil help that condition. Any thoughts on this?


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## RawFedDogs (Jun 16, 2008)

Dogs manufacture Vit C internally in thier liver. THey need none in their diet. Any excess Vit C in thier body is immediately filtered by the kidneys and excreeted from the body. When you are giving a dog Vit C, all you are doing is creating expensive pee.

I haven't heard about coconut oil but I suspect it's just as useful and the Vit C.


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## anifunk1962 (Feb 14, 2009)

Since supplements aren't helpful for dogs, do you have any advice for a dog that may have hip dysplasia?


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## RawFedDogs (Jun 16, 2008)

anifunk1962 said:


> Since supplements aren't helpful for dogs, do you have any advice for a dog that may have hip dysplasia?


Glucosamine ... you can get it in pill form or liquid or in chicken feet. is your dog limping?


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## LoveNewfies (Jun 18, 2008)

Actually, I will disagree with RFD - vitamin C helps in the formation of connective tissue - even though a dog's body does synthesize vitamin C, high doses of vitamin C have been known to help dogs with hip dysplasia and connective tissue problems. While I would not suggest supplementing a healthy dog with vitamin C as it is completely unnecessary, when you have a specific problem, there are benefits to supplementation.

Yes, glucosamine and chondroitin for any joint problems.


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## Doc (Jan 17, 2009)

Read Belfield's research on Vit.C and collegen supplimentation. Very interesting particulary in the area of CHD. Unused Vit. C is easily eliminated.


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## RawFedDogs (Jun 16, 2008)

VITAMIN C REQUIREMENTS
"Relationship of Nutrition to Developmental Skeletal Disease in Young Dogs" for Veterinary Clinical Nutrition, Volume 4, Number 1, 1997, Published by Veterinary Practice Publishing Company, P.O. Box 4457, Santa Barbara, CA 93140, Phone - 805-965-1028, Fax - 805-965-0722. 

L-ascorbic acid (Vitamin C) is necessary for hydroxylation of proline and lysine during biosynthesis of collagen, a major component of ligaments and bones. Food devoid of Vitamin C fed to puppies for 147 to 154 days neither affected growth nor caused skeletal lesions.(12) There are no known dietary requirements for Vitamin C in the dog.(11)


Vitamin C supplementation in pigs elevates plasma levels of Vitamin C without changing articular concentrations of hydroxyproline.(13) Similar studies in dogs demonstrated transient elevation of plasma Vitamin C concentrations; however, long-term supplementation did not increase concentrations much above normal.(14) Even though Vitamin C has been recommended, the relationship between Vitamin C and developmental skeletal disorders in dogs such as osteochondrosis and hip dysplasia is unproven.(15)

For more information you can go to:
I Love My Pet - Article


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## LoveNewfies (Jun 18, 2008)

In addition to what Doc posted (Dr. Belfields writings) here is another.

by L. Phillips Brown, D.V.M.

The common wisdom is that humans, other primates, guinea pigs, and a few birds need to get vitamin C in their diets. Since the rest of the animals produce it within their own bodies, they no doubt make enough, right? Well, maybe not. In this article, a doctor of veterinary medicine looks at the effects of vitamin C supplementation in dogs and its benefit in fighting arthritis, and other ailments.

Dogs of all ages suffer with various joint and spinal disorders, including hip dysplasia, osteoarthritis, non-specific arthritis, osteochrondritis, spondylitis and spondylosis. Treatment often consists of rest. surgery and/or steroids, nonspecific anti-inflammatory drugs (NSAIDS), aspirin, penicillamine or methotrexate. Many therapeutic compounds produce only short-term benefits and may actually accelerate the progression of joint destruction.

Nutritional Considerations

Vitamin C is a vital nutrient in bone and cartilage metabolism. Although dogs, unlike humans, can manufacture their own vitamin C, they may not produce enough to counter the effects of aging, stress, inherited dysfunctions, environmental irritants and poor quality or high fat pet foods.

In fact, early studies in dogs and horses suggest that daily vitamin C supplementation might be beneficial in reducing chronic inflammation. Unfortunately; ordinary vitamin C may cause gastrointestinal upsets i dogs. A form of vitamin C that would promote higher levels of intracellular ascorbic acid without negative side effects would be a useful and unique product.

Clinical Study

The effect of different forms of vitamin C on various locomotor dysfunctions of dogs were investigated by veterinarians at The Best Friends Animal Sanctuary in Utah. Over 100 case studies were evaluated, using varying strengths and combinations of mineral ascorbates, ascorbic acid and microcrystalline cellulose during a six-month period. The results indicate that a patented vitamin C ascorbate / vitamin C metabolite complex, administered orally, may have application for the reduction of discomfort associated with nonspecific, chronic inflammatory disorders of dogs. The vitamin C ascorbate / metabolite complex used in the study was Ester-C.

Product Background

According to the manufacturer, Inter-Cal Corporation, of Prescott, Arizona, Ester-C is a patented ascorbate supplement containing calcium ascorbate, naturally occurring dehydroascorbate and the vitamin C metabolite, threonate. Threonate permits ascorbate to be more rapidly absorbed from the gastrointestinal tract, to cross cell membranes more efficiently, reach higher cellular levels and be excreted more slowly than ordinary vitamin C. Ester-C ascorbate is pH neutral and believed to be water and partially fat soluble.



Mechanism Of Action

Vitamin C may act as an immunoresponsive and chrondrogenerative agent. In degenerative (i.e., aging) or inflammatory conditions, collagen breakdown is excessive, resulting in joint discomfort and skeletal changes. A product that would provide high and prolonged levels of ascorbic acid would help compression resistance of cartilage, mobilized white blood cells to the site of inflammation, and enhance prostaglandin synthesis. The net result would be increased comfort and mobility.



Conclusion

78 percent of the study dogs receiving Ester-C calcium ascorbate showed improved mobility within four to five days.

The consistency and degree of response demonstrated that Ester-C calcium ascorbate provided symptomatic relief to the study dogs suffering from selected chronic joint and musculoskeletal disorders. The findings that the condition of many of the "improved" dogs deteriorated rapidly upon discontinuance of Ester-C ascorbate further verified its usefulness as primary or adjunctive therapy. These studies reinforced the earlier observations that supplemental Ester-C calcium ascorbate corrected mobility problems of dogs and horses.

The findings suggest that, although dogs can manufacture endogenous ascorbic acid, the amount produced my not be sufficient to prevent or counteract stresses associated with aging, injury or joint malpositioning.



From the results of this study, there is significant evidence to recommend oral Ester-C calcium ascorbate in the management of non-specific musculoskeletal disorders of dogs.


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## RawFedDogs (Jun 16, 2008)

LoveNewfies said:


> In addition to what Doc posted (Dr. Belfields writings) here is another.


What you posted is promotional & marketing brochure for Esther-C which regardless of what they say is nothing more than a particular brand name for Vit C pills.



> Dogs of all ages suffer with various joint and spinal disorders, including hip dysplasia, osteoarthritis, non-specific arthritis, osteochrondritis, spondylitis and spondylosis. Treatment often consists of rest. surgery and/or steroids, nonspecific anti-inflammatory drugs (NSAIDS), aspirin, penicillamine or methotrexate. Many therapeutic compounds produce only short-term benefits and may actually accelerate the progression of joint destruction.


This is typical advertising talk saying, "My product is better than all the other products."




> In fact, early studies in dogs and horses *suggest* that daily vitamin C supplementation *might be beneficial in reducing chronic inflammation.* Unfortunately; ordinary vitamin C may cause gastrointestinal upsets i dogs. A form of vitamin C that would promote higher levels of intracellular ascorbic acid without negative side effects would be a useful and unique product.


"Suggest" and "might be ...." are terms used to get around the truth in advertising laws.




> The effect of different forms of vitamin C on various locomotor dysfunctions of dogs were investigated by veterinarians at The Best Friends Animal Sanctuary in Utah. Over 100 case studies were evaluated, using varying strengths and combinations of mineral ascorbates, ascorbic acid and microcrystalline cellulose during a six-month period. The results indicate that a patented vitamin C ascorbate / vitamin C metabolite complex, administered orally, *may have application for the reduction of discomfort associated with nonspecific, chronic inflammatory disorders of dogs.* The vitamin C ascorbate / metabolite complex *used in the study was Ester-C*.


This is more promotional gunk that indicate Ester-C MAY do something. Also, it MAY NOT but they don't tell you that. Of course the product name is included in this paragraph. It also suggests subtally that "my product is better than the other products."



> According to the manufacturer, Inter-Cal Corporation, of Prescott, Arizona, *Ester-C* is a patented ascorbate supplement containing calcium ascorbate, naturally occurring dehydroascorbate and the vitamin C metabolite, threonate. Threonate permits ascorbate to be more rapidly absorbed from the gastrointestinal tract, to cross cell membranes more efficiently, reach higher cellular levels and be excreted more slowly than ordinary vitamin C. *Ester-C* ascorbate is pH neutral and believed to be water and partially fat soluble.


This is another paragraph that suggests, "My product is better than the others."



> Vitamin C *may* act as an immunoresponsive and chrondrogenerative agent. In degenerative (i.e., aging) or inflammatory conditions, collagen breakdown is excessive, resulting in joint discomfort and skeletal changes. A product that would provide high and prolonged levels of ascorbic acid would help compression resistance of cartilage, mobilized white blood cells to the site of inflammation, and enhance prostaglandin synthesis. The net result would be increased comfort and mobility.


This paragraph is so cool if you analyze it. It talks about a mythical product that MAY do wonders for a dogs pain. The subtle inplication here is that the mythical product is Ester-C. This is very clever promotional material. I like it. :smile:



> 78 percent of the study dogs receiving Ester-C calcium ascorbate showed improved mobility within four to five days.
> 
> The consistency and degree of response demonstrated that Ester-C calcium ascorbate provided symptomatic relief to the study dogs suffering from selected chronic joint and musculoskeletal disorders. The findings that the condition of many of the "improved" dogs deteriorated rapidly upon discontinuance of Ester-C ascorbate further verified its usefulness as primary or adjunctive therapy. These studies reinforced the earlier observations that supplemental Ester-C calcium ascorbate corrected mobility problems of dogs and horses.
> 
> The findings suggest that, although dogs can manufacture endogenous ascorbic acid, the amount produced my not be sufficient to prevent or counteract stresses associated with aging, injury or joint malpositioning.


They are very vague with the number of dogs actually receiving Ester-C in the study. They are vague about everything in this study. This paragraph reminds me of the old toothpaste ads saying "4 out of 5 dentists say you will have significantly fewer cavaties if you use such and such toothpaste."



> From the results of this study, there is significant evidence to recommend oral Ester-C calcium ascorbate in the management of non-specific musculoskeletal disorders of dogs.


This is another "My product is better than all the other products" combined with, "My product will cure most any poblem your dog has." For a second I thought I was reading an ad for ACV. :smile:

This stuff was cut/pasted off a page that is selling Ester-C. Directly below this "paper" was instructions on how to order Ester-C for your dog. I googled this and couldn't find this document anywhere else except where Ester-C was being sold. Remember that Ester-C is just a brand name of a Vit C product. It is no different than a Coke ad saying Coke tastes better than Pepsi.


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## LoveNewfies (Jun 18, 2008)

Yes, that came from a site that sells Ester C, with information that has a lot in common with Belfield's paper.

Ester C is absorbed more readily than other forms of vitamin C, and it tends to be far easier on the digestive system, therefore, can be given in higher doses to achieve the results for dogs with joint problems. 

Believe it or not, supplementation can be a good thing for many dogs with problems. There are reasons why people supplement with particular vitamins, minerals, herbals, etc. and although you may not, it doesn't make it wrong. Each dog is an individual with different conditions and needs, some go far, far deeper than others.


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## RawFedDogs (Jun 16, 2008)

LoveNewfies said:


> Yes, that came from a site that sells Ester C, with information that has a lot in common with Belfield's paper.


Of course it does. Belfield also sells Vitamin C. His is called Mega-C Plus. You can find that at Orthomolecular Specialties ? New Concepts in Pet Health Care - Alternative Pet Health Care

When you sell a product, any product, you do what you can to promote sales. It's the nature of salesmen. It's what they do for a living. Their job is to convince you that you need their product whether you actually do or not.


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## LoveNewfies (Jun 18, 2008)

And the same can be said for those of us that feed and/or sell raw. There are no "studies" to prove what we do is best, nutritionally speaking - all just "anecdotal" evidence. 

I personally have "anecdotal" evidence of Ester C being beneficial for a dog diagnosed with HD as a pup.


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## RawFedDogs (Jun 16, 2008)

LoveNewfies said:


> I personally have "anecdotal" evidence of Ester C being beneficial for a dog diagnosed with HD as a pup.


Ahhhh, thank you, thats my point. There is actual scientific research that proves conclusevly with hard numbers that Vit C has no relationship to skeletal disorders in dogs. (See my post #7 in this thread). ALL the evidence that Vit C has positive implications is purely anecdotal and full of words like "may be", "indicates", "might", "poiints towards the posibility", "suggests", etc. The greatest majority of these claims comes from people or places that sell Vit C.

Always be wary of information given to you by someone who stands to make money from you because of the decision you make based on that information.


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## anifunk1962 (Feb 14, 2009)

I didn't mean to start a battle of the vitamin C is good versus vitamin C is not good but I read somewhere (I can't remember where I read it) that it helped someone's dog, and I don't think there was an advertisement attached to it.

Anyway, I already tried a joint supplement called Triple Joint Max or something like that, and it had glucosamine and chondroitin and MSM and some other things in it but it didn't seem to make much difference.

Yes, my dog does have a limp. He needs to go to the vet but it's a little complicated. He hates to ride in a vehicle and gets very anxious and throws up and/or slobbers, so it's stressful for him and us. Then there's the expense for an office visit, x-rays, etc., and we're not rich. And probably the biggest complication is . . . I don't like conventional medicine - for humans and/or pets. I don't like drugs, vaccines, flea and worm treatments or anything else toxic. So . . . I'm looking for natural therapies to help my ailing doggy. 

We talk on here about a raw diet, which is supposed to be natural and what a dog would eat if living in the wild. So would a dog living in the wild get hip dysplasia? Would he go to the vet? Would he take supplements? 

Maybe I'm just confused.


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## RawFedDogs (Jun 16, 2008)

anifunk1962 said:


> Anyway, I already tried a joint supplement called Triple Joint Max or something like that, and it had glucosamine and chondroitin and MSM and some other things in it but it didn't seem to make much difference.


I have had 3 dogs that I gave glucosimine and chontroitin and MSM to. The one I'm treating now, I'm giving massive doses to. Like 3,000mg/day. Until a few years ago, I had a bad hip because of an injury many years ago. Arthritis developed in it. I aslo took those supplements for about a year. I could not tell the difference either in my dogs or myself. 

My wife swore it helped the dogs but I never could see it. I think thats what keeps supplements like these and others going. People give the dogs the supplements and think they see a difference because they want to. (Placebo effect)



> Yes, my dog does have a limp. He needs to go to the vet but it's a little complicated. He hates to ride in a vehicle and gets very anxious and throws up and/or slobbers, so it's stressful for him and us.


If your dog has arthritis or hip Dysplasia there is nothing your vet can do other than replace the hip (thats what I did) or give the dog pain pills. If your dog has ligiment problems in either the knee or other joint then that can often be repaired but it's very expensive. I spent about $2,000 on a dog's knee.



> So . . . I'm looking for natural therapies to help my ailing doggy.


USUALLY the only improvement I see in dogs with natural therapies is placebo effect.



> We talk on here about a raw diet, which is supposed to be natural and what a dog would eat if living in the wild. So would a dog living in the wild get hip dysplasia? Would he go to the vet? Would he take supplements?


If you are talking about a truly wild dog, I don't think he would get those problems. My opinion is that human intervention in breeding and poor diet is the cause of most of the chronic problems in today's domestic dogs.

But to answer your question. A dog in the wild who got one of these problems would work through it until it got so bad that it intefered with his ability to catch prey, at which point he would die.


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## Doc (Jan 17, 2009)

Well I aint reel sur but Paw sayz to feed dem dawgs ornges but old Tater dont like em much. Paw sayz it good fer dair bones and joints but you knowd wot - old Tater dont ate dem ornges and he aint limpn round nowars.


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## EnglishBullTerriers (Sep 10, 2008)

Doc said:


> Well I aint reel sur but Paw sayz to feed dem dawgs ornges but old Tater dont like em much. Paw sayz it good fer dair bones and joints but you knowd wot - old Tater dont ate dem ornges and he aint limpn round nowars.


Does your dog eat oranges??? I think that is the ONLY thing that Owen will NOT eat!! :biggrin:


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## ChattyCathy (Nov 22, 2008)

I gave my dog chondroitin and glucosamine tablets for awhile. I wanted to believe it helped, but it really didn't. It just made me feel a little better. I even tried, believe it or not, accupuncture for my dog's hips. Of course the accupuncturist said she was doing better - I still didn't see it. She lived to over 13, so I was happy about that. I would give one of my other dogs chondroitin and glucosamine again if I needed to. I believe it didn't hurt. Don't know about the vitamin C though.


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## anifunk1962 (Feb 14, 2009)

Thanks for all the replies. I can't afford doggy surgery right now. Looks like I should probably pray harder. :smile:


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