# Snapped At Other Dog



## SerenityFL

So tonight the hoodlums were enjoying their pork bones in their crates after dinner. I then took them out, one by one, to use the bathroom outside.

I took Sakari, (girl), out first and when we came back, I brought her back towards her crate, (in the bedroom), so she could walk in and finish chewing on her bone. 

I then took Shasta, (boy), out to use the bathroom. When we came back, Sakari had brought her bone in to the living room and had also gone in to Shasta's crate, (which is also in the living room), and took his bone. She was lying on the floor, hogging them both up.

I got the leash off of Shasta and he went over to retrieve his bone when Sakari snapped and barked at him.

I said, in a firm but surprisingly calm voice, "No, we do not tolerate that in this house" and took her by the collar and marched her back to her crate where she is currently sitting.

Is that the right course of action and how do I take care of this issue for the future?

Thanks.


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## Katie Chumlee and Shorty

I'm not a trainer.

I don't know what happened from the time you took the leash off the one dog if he ran over and got his bone if you even knew she had it or not until she snapped and then you realized that she had both. Assuming the next time this happens you can make sure she doesn't have both and if she does you go over there and take it from her yourself because you are the leader. This is what I do when they start hoarding their antlers to their beds, they chew them for 20 minutes then they go and grab another one, then grab another now they have three and Chum wants one of Shorty's or Shorty wants one of Chum's, I thought 7 antlers were enough lol. Try to be proactive rather than reactive and be the leader!


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## SerenityFL

Katie Chumlee and Shorty said:


> Assuming the next time this happens you can make sure she doesn't have both and if she does you go over there and take it from her yourself because you are the leader.


This is what I should have done. I did know she had both bones with her but it's never been an issue before; this was the first time. I will definitely take one from her in the future to let her know that I decide who gets what around here.

I'm just wondering if this is the beginning of an aggressive behavior on her part and if there's something I should be doing or will this act of me taking the other bone from her going to be enough.

What if she decides to start getting territorial with places, not just things? I want to nip this behavior in the bud right now as I don't want her deciding one day to snap at the cats.

Granted, when they are both out, in the house, I'm there. I will never leave them both in the house, unattended. Thus far, things have gone well but I will not allow a dog to snap at another dog or cat in this house.

I have always fed the cats first and let the dogs know that the cats get the bed, couch, chair, whatever they want. The dogs do not. I have also switched who gets fed first. One day it's Shasta, one day it's Sakari. I also switch it up with who goes out first just so that one doesn't think the other is higher or lower than they are.

I've never had two dogs at the same time so this business is new to me. I've seen and read enough about dogs that got along so well for so long all of a sudden going at it and I want to stop the attitude/behavior right now, not later.


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## Katie Chumlee and Shorty

More than likely the girl will end up being the boss over the boy they will establish this during the challenge period, they were litter mates right too right? How old are your pups? During the 7-10 month age they are terrors so brace yourself if you haven't already been through this. They will challenge you and seem as though they forgot all their training. It is a good idea to have bones up (the ones they like to fight over the most) when you are gone so they don't have the chance to fight over them until they can be trusted. Chumlee is crated during the day when I work my full time job but when I run errands and things at night I don't put him in his crate (he has been doing this since 7 months old now he is 9 months old) up to 3 hrs alone but I put the "gator" away because that is the toy that they fight over, I only have one I should have bought two oh well....

This is not a sign of aggressive behavior simply unacceptable behavior that can be corrected.


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## SerenityFL

Katie Chumlee and Shorty said:


> More than likely the girl will end up being the boss over the boy they will establish this during the challenge period, they were litter mates right too right? How old are your pups? During the 7-10 month age they are terrors so brace yourself if you haven't already been through this. They will challenge you and seem as though they forgot all their training. It is a good idea to have bones up (the ones they like to fight over the most) when you are gone so they don't have the chance to fight over them until they can be trusted. Chumlee is crated during the day when I work my full time job but when I run errands and things at night I don't put him in his crate (he has been doing this since 7 months old now he is 9 months old) up to 3 hrs alone but I put the "gator" away because that is the toy that they fight over, I only have one I should have bought two oh well....
> 
> This is not a sign of aggressive behavior simply unacceptable behavior that can be corrected.


Oh we have reached that stage. I do remember going through that when I had my other dog, many years back, and it was frustrating! But, I knew it was coming this time so I was at least somewhat prepared for the attitude and the whole "no speakee English" thing anymore.

I went out and got some freeze dried liver treats as well as dehydrated some chicken hearts and at least while on walks and training, oh yes, now I'm a god in their eyes. But in the house, hahahahhaha! "Sit? What is this 'sit' you speak of? I am not listening to you." It's what I call their "teenage gangly years" and we are right in the middle of it. It is annoying because I know they know what I'm saying but as you said, they are challenging me and it's non stop supervision....not even a fricken minute can I take my eyes off of them.

However, again, I've never had two dogs before so I was unprepared for any territorial issues. I walk them separately, feed them in their crates separately and basically, don't allow them to "be" together very much as we established identities.

I did put the bones up last night. I should be treating them like I do the toys. "These are my toys and I will decide if I allow you to play with them." I put their toys up and make a big show of pulling the tub down, allowing them one and putting the toy away when I want. I just didn't make the connection with the bones....I was trying to let them have the bones so they would stop chewing on my things. Grrrrr. It appears I have to treat the bones the same way as the toys.

They are crated during the day, in their own crates, when I'm gone at work and while in the house, they are on leashes. I have one sit next to me, I sit on the leash, and one sit in the living room, about 10 or so feet away from me, leash around their neck and keep an eye on them when I'm at the computer. I alternate who sits next to me and who sits in the living room just a bit away. I have to keep them separate or they will start acting ridiculous and wrestle all over the house, which I do not allow.

I was just starting to let them be with me at night while sleeping and they've been doing a relatively good job although if I catch one of them chewing something, back in the crate. They are on their leashes when they are with me at night and I got chain leashes, (since the jerks chomped through the leather ones), that are a little heavier and they know they are leashed and can't chew their way out of it.

They are about 7 months old now and yes, they were litter mates. Maybe they should still be in their crates at night....which I guess I'll just have to get over. I really wanted them to get more time out of their crates but if we are going to have territorial issues and chewing and I can't leave the bones out for them, I may have to do that. Which, sucks but, I guess it won't be forever. I just hate them being in their crates so much. Then again, if they are about to get stupid for the next three months or so, I may not feel so bad about them being in the crate at night, still.

I ordered those antlers and they should be here by next week so maybe I'll have an antler in each crate and that is what they will do to occupy their time during the day and night when they aren't sleeping. I suppose I'm moving too fast here.

I guess we're about to get all boot camp around here if she insists on growling, snapping and being a little twit about things and he insists on chewing up everything I own. (Although he's done a lot better after he got a crash course training in "Chew this again and you die" last week.)


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## Katie Chumlee and Shorty

You could have them sleep in your bedroom with you but not on your bed. Their sleeping area is a highly guarded place. Chumlee has nylabones in his crate to chew on during the day if he is bored in there.


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## RawFedDogs

I think you are making a huge deal out of something that is completely natural and no big deal at all. I have owned multiple dogs for well over 20 years and I know you really don't have a problem. Do dogs sometimes "squabble"? Heck yes. It usually lasts less than 30 seconds and is over. It sounds feroucious and looks very dangerous but it's really not. This is dog's way of communicating. After just a very few of these little squabbles, the dogs learn what a growl means and will avoid the other dog when he growls because of protecting food or a possession.

Maybe once a year in my house one dog will growl at the other and the other immediately backs away. This is something they learn and they can't learn it if you are constantly inteferring with their interactions. The less humans intefere with dogs interactions, the less problems there will be in the long run. It's when humans try to dictate how they interact with each other that problems occur. We try to impose human behavior or dog relationships and dogs just don't work that way. They can work out their own relationship if allowed to do so.

Don't worry about who is dominant and who is submissive. That's a bunch of garbage that was debunked years ago. In different situations different dogs will take the leadership role. As I said, I have had multiple dogs for over 20 years and never had one dog dominant over the other.



SerenityFL said:


> I am not listening to you." It's what I call their "teenage gangly years" and we are right in the middle of it. It is annoying because I know they know what I'm saying but as you said, they are challenging me and it's non stop supervision....not even a fricken minute can I take my eyes off of them.


They are acting the same way as human teenagers. :smile: Let your supervision be limited to the destruction of property and not the normal interactions between dogs. 



> However, again, I've never had two dogs before so I was unprepared for any territorial issues. I walk them separately, feed them in their crates separately and basically, don't allow them to "be" together very much as we established identities.


Until you let them be together, they can't learn to be together. They have to work it out themselves. I have NEVER kept dogs seperate for any reason other than to put one in time out for 2 minutes for training purposes. I have never crated dogs when they were alone in the house after they learned not to be destructive. (There is a way to teach that too but thats a seperate issue than your "problem".) I always walk them together unless I am trying to teach one of them something. I leave them at home together whenever I leave the house. I don't use a crate anymore as both are mature dogs and they are alone in the house together quite a lot. I never worry as I pull in the driveway what I will find destroyed because it never happens.



> I did put the bones up last night. I should be treating them like I do the toys. "These are my toys and I will decide if I allow you to play with them." I put their toys up and make a big show of pulling the tub down, allowing them one and putting the toy away when I want. I just didn't make the connection with the bones....I was trying to let them have the bones so they would stop chewing on my things. Grrrrr. It appears I have to treat the bones the same way as the toys.


Again, they will work it out if they are allowed to. I never did any of that stuff you are talking about. They will soon learn that whoever has possesion of an object (either food or toy), owns that until they walk away and leave it. They learn that very quickly if given the opportunity. That has never caused a problem around here. Sometimes I laugh with I see the way one dog will try to trick the other into leaving an object so they can get it. It happens regularly around here.



> They are crated during the day, in their own crates, when I'm gone at work and while in the house, they are on leashes. I have one sit next to me, I sit on the leash, and one sit in the living room, about 10 or so feet away from me, leash around their neck and keep an eye on them when I'm at the computer. I alternate who sits next to me and who sits in the living room just a bit away. I have to keep them separate or they will start acting ridiculous and wrestle all over the house, which I do not allow.


PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE stop being so controlling and let your poor dogs be dogs. At that age they love to play, wrestle, rough house. It's part of being a young dog. Often their play looks like fighting but it's not. It's the way dogs play. Back in the days I taught training classes we would let puppies have "play time" and turn them loose and let them play. There was lots of growling, biting ears, tails, legs, or anything they could get their mouths on. Lots of chasing around. My dogs used to rough house around often and they are Great Danes so it was quite a site. Unfortunately one is 10 1/2 years old now and she just doesn't feel like that anymore. I really miss their rough housing.

Don't try to create 2 dog statues to sit in a particular place and not move. That is so unnatural and in the long run will create many more behavior problems that it solves.



> I was just starting to let them be with me at night while sleeping and they've been doing a relatively good job although if I catch one of them chewing something, back in the crate.


Yes, they should sleep in the crate until they learn what is ok to chew and what is not. They should know that by now.



> They are on their leashes when they are with me at night and I got chain leashes, (since the jerks chomped through the leather ones), that are a little heavier and they know they are leashed and can't chew their way out of it.


The only reason you need a leash is when you are walking them outside. Let the poor dogs be able to move about the house without being incumbered by leashes.



> I really wanted them to get more time out of their crates but if we are going to have territorial issues and chewing and I can't leave the bones out for them, I may have to do that.


You are so concerned about normal behavior. Don't be. Whenever you are awake and at home, they should be out of the crate. Leave toys and bones available to them all the time. Toys keep them out of trouble. Once they are no longer destructive then store the crates away for your next dogs. Mine are stored in the garage and have been there for 5 years.



> I guess we're about to get all boot camp around here if she insists on growling, snapping and being a little twit about things and he insists on chewing up everything I own.


This is normal dog behavior and will happen rarely once they learn how to interact. There are ways to teach dogs what is ok to chew and what isn't. You need to understand dog psychology to work on that. Thats not what this post is about though. Just remember that chewing is normal for a dog. It's what they do. They have a need for it. It's your job to teach what is ok to chew and what isn't.


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## kevin bradley

RawFedDogs said:


> Don't worry about who is dominant and who is submissive. That's a bunch of garbage that was debunked years ago. In different situations different dogs will take the leadership role. As I said, I have had multiple dogs for over 20 years and never had one dog dominant over the other.




That is so funny, Raw. I've always scratched my head at the whole ..."this one is the Alpha of the house" philosophy. My 3 are a hodge podge of leaders...one leads one day, another the next. 

Funny how much BS is out there.


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## DaneMama

I don't know how I didn't see this thread until now....

If I could thank Bill a million times for the advice he's given you I would. I agree with everything he has said to you. Let dogs be dogs. If I was as worried as you are everytime one of my dogs growled at each other I would have to keep each dog locked in a room alone. What kind of quality of life is that? Dogs are social creatures and need social interaction to be mentally healthy. Let them play. Let them communicate. If you don't let them communicate with each other (growling, squabbles, etc) they will escalate their behavior to the next level, which is full on fighting because they were never given the chance to learn how to communicate their needs and wants from each other. 

If Sakari was being a hog with the bones, Shasta will learn to protect his resources more from her. I'm not advocating letting them fight to the death, but you should give them a chance to communicate with each other and figure things out.

Dominance, submissive, alpha and omega personality "traits" are fluid and completely depend on the context of the situation. Confident dogs tend to be more dominant more often but that doesnt mean they are dominant all of the time no matter the situation. More shy dogs tend to be more submissive more often then not but that doesn't mean they aren't ever dominant in a situation. Would you say that Sakari is more confident than Shasta?

With all this being said, the fact that they are littermates makes it more difficult. It's important to so things separately with each dog so they have a chance to bond with you and just not each other. But never letting them interact will do more harm than good.


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## kevin bradley

Nat, 

Why whatever do you mean? Just the other day, Caesar told me to assume the Alpha role and take over the pack. I tried it the other day by barking and snapping at my guys. 

They just looked at me like I was nutso. :wink:


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## DaneMama

That's because they know you're not a dog and you just look nutso by trying to act like one. Dogs know people are not dogs, so why try and act like one? Sure dogs pick up on our body language but that's entirely different.


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## kevin bradley

danemama08 said:


> That's because they know you're not a dog and you just look nutso by trying to act like one. Dogs know people are not dogs, so why try and act like one? Sure dogs pick up on our body language but that's entirely different.


hopefully you know I was funnin' ya, Nat. 

I'm not the brightest, but come on :smile:


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## luvMyBRT

I agree 110% with Bill. 

You must be exhausted with trying to keep things so orderly and peaceful. Relax and let them be the puppies that they are. Let them learn how to interact with eachother. It will be so much more relaxing for all of you.

Duncan is already out of his crate. He is 6 months old, potty trained and knows what is acceptable to chew on. His toys are usually scattered on the floor. Him and Lucky play often with the toys and together. 

Every now and then Lucky has to "teach" Duncan a lesson. He will get playing to ruff and Lucky has to let him know to back off. Or Lucky will have a bone and Duncan gets a bit too close. It sounds horrible and looks horrible because it's all teeth. However, I know it's normal dog behavior and this is how they communicate. It is stuff that Duncan NEEDS to be taught so he knows how to properly act around dogs. Duncan knows now when he needs to back off, or when he needs to not play so ruff. When it happens I just say to my kids (or who ever is here) that it is totally normal and to NOT interfere....they will work it out for themselves. And they always do. It will be about 5 seconds of "communication" and then everyone is happy again.


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## DaneMama

kevin bradley said:


> hopefully you know I was funnin' ya, Nat.
> 
> I'm not the brightest, but come on :smile:


Oh absolutely :wink: 

I get your humor :biggrin:


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## 3Musketeers

I agree with some of what RawFedDigs said, my dogs will growl at each other if any of the others start trying to take their food and they just "get it". Eventually they will understand each other, so long as it doesn't start to get out of hand I don't see the harm in letting them settle a few things between themsleves.
Although I guess the best prevention is for you to just try and make sure Sakari doesn't steal both bones again! Greedy dog lol. I do think that you letting her know that Shasta's bone is not for her might help.
I will occasionally catch my guys stealing, and that I do not tolerate and make them "drop it" and they give out that guilty look and let me take it from them xD.

The playing maybe you can limit to being outside only, I can only imagine them some knocking furniture around while they wrestle, but if they know how to not destroy your house then why bother? Pups will be pups and play.


Hey guys, I know it sounds silly/crazy, but when my dogs even think of trying to get near my food I actually do a low growl at them and they immediately stop even trying to beg. But its not like I go on barking at them lmao, I can imagine how weirded out they'd be.


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## DaneMama

I also don't tolerate stealing of food in my house. But chew bones and toys are fair game...first come first served so to speak. If a dog walks away from it any of the others are welcome to it.


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## SerenityFL

Ok. Let's clarify a few things and then let's talk about what happened tonight.

First, I have been keeping them separate a lot because, as was pointed out, they are litter mates and they did need to learn to become their own and also have time with me, to bond.

Perhaps we are good with that now? 

Second, I do let them play together some times. I don't keep them separate all day, every day. What I mean by keep them separate is that they have their own crates, I take them to the bathroom separately, (because Sakari will never fricken go if I don't...and if you think I'm kidding, she held it for over 24 hours one time--despite me taking her out every hour--because there are so many other things to do out there besides pee...and Shasta is an added distraction), and I train them separately until I know they know the commands, 100%. When I first started with them, I did take them out at the same time and it was total and complete mayhem. When I started taking them out separately, they learned things quick and acted much better.

In the house, again, yes, most of the time, they are apart. However, not all the time. At night when going to sleep, as I said, I was beginning to let them be out of the crate and they were getting along well. They mouth each other, do play biting, lick each other, paw each other, etc. Then they settled down and went to sleep. 

Because this just started, (and remember guys, I've had them 3 months...they may be 7 months old but I've had them 3 months and the first two weeks, I didn't even know I was going to keep them--they were dumped off, they were abandoned out here in the Everglades. I found them in front of my house at midnight one night), Shasta is learning what he is not allowed to chew. When I said he got a crash course training on what he was allowed to chew and what he wasn't allowed to chew, I meant it. He chomped my remote control and it wasn't even a matter of, "You destroyed this!" because I can get another one. It was a matter of, he chomped and ate plastic, he chomped through batteries....not good. 

I have them on leashes, in the house, because they are not allowed out of my site while out of their crates. It doesn't take but 5 seconds for one of them to sneak off and get in to something or chew something or whatever so they stay with me. 

Third, Sakari did not growl about the bone last night. I have heard her growl about things before, and I allow her to do that because I was told, if I do not allow a dog to communicate, they will just act out, so I have let her growl. But last night, she full on just snapped. There was no warning growl.

Fourth, I have cats. She has growled at the cats because she doesn't like them being where she is. I can't take the risk of her injuring a cat. So while I know to let her communicate, I am trying to figure out how to stop her being so possessive of things.

Tonight, I did allow them to be together, in the house. I was actually kind of playing with them. Sort of. I was right there and I was giving them attention...quite a bit of attention. Sakari, at one point, decided she wanted all the attention and again, without a growl, snapped at Shasta. It wasn't playing, it was, "get away from me NOW!"

I guess where I'm getting confused is between these two things:

1) Let the dog communicate, let them establish their structure or whatever you want to call it, if they really intended to bite, they would, dogs don't miss, etc.

2) Those dog behavior shows, Victoria Stillwell and the like, are always going to houses where one dog snaps and attacks the other family dogs and the owners are to blame because they didn't know the correct way to stop the behavior. I don't want to be one of those people. I don't want to get to the point where Sakari is terrorizing the other animals because I didn't stop anything in the beginning.

I do realize that dogs communicate with each other with sounds and body positions. I even know what some of those mean. I know they are supposed to be able to communicate.

I just don't want to end up with an out of control dog that beats the crap out of the other animals because I did not do the right thing the first time I saw it happen.


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## 3Musketeers

The only thing that comes to mind is to try and ignore her when she snaps. Maybe say "no" and then give attention to Shasta and the cats until she calms down, then go back and play with her, and if she snaps again, ignore her again. Rinse and repeat?
I'm no dog trainer, but I've seen something similar with my grandmothers dogs and it worked for them, but it might not work for other dogs. Other than that, kind of stumped as to what you can do about the situation. Ehh, tried to help...


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## DaneMama

Thanks for clarifying some, but it still sounds like they are not allowed to be dogs. 

Dogs are destructive for several reasons. First, out of boredom. Second, out of spite/anger being left alone. Third, lack of stimulation (mental and physical). Fourth, lack of appropriate items to destroy. 

From the sounds of it they don't have nearly enough mental AND physical stimulation. The only time when these guys should be separated is training sessions and walks. They certainly shouldn't be separated more often than not. The whole reason why you should do things with them separate is so they have a chance to bond to you as well, but you don't want them to NOT bond with eachother. Being siblings they will most likely bond with each other stronger than to you no matter what you do (unless you keep them separate all/most of the time), but thats not necessarily a bad thing. You at least want to bond with them on some level. Them bonding together doesn't mean they won't bond to you at all. 

Sounds like you need a good puppy safe room or area that they both can be in and spend time together. That way they aren't separated and locked up as much as they are. It also sounds like they need more of a chance to bond and learn how to be around each other. Make sure this room/area has lots of toys and is free from things that shouldn't be destroyed. Dogs typically need 17-20 hours of sleep a day, so in their up time take advantage of that. Take them out on runs and give them mentally stimulating things games and training. Idle dogs do things they shouldn't, so keep them busy.

There is a slight chance that these guys may not be the best match together but I think giving them a chance to be around each other more and communicate more needs to be done to see for sure. 

I hope you're not taking any of this advice the wrong way. We genuinely want to help your dogs and you live a better life! Keep us posted!


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## cast71

danemama08 said:


> Dogs typically need 17-20 hours of sleep a day,


I didn't know that. No wonder why my dog is a big couch potatoe/lap dog when ever he's not outside:biggrin: He does get goofy sometimes in the house. Pretty funny.


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## CorgiPaws

danemama08 said:


> Dogs typically need 17-20 hours of sleep a day, so in their up time take advantage of that.


Shoot, Annie did NOT get that memo.


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## spookychick13

Man, I could use 17 to 20 hours of sleep per day...that's for sure.


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## k9capture_16

Let them be dogs, only seperate if it gets serious. RFD's is right, every dog will take a different position in different scenarios. For example. Lincoln plays with two other dogs. A Border Collie and then a Shepherd mix. When he plays with the Collie Lincoln is submissive and lets the Collie be boss. If the Collie is eating something Link will let him be. If Link is eating something and the Collie takes it he could care less.

When he plays with the Shepherd mix Hes boss. Lincoln will not allowed this dog to take his toys or his treats. He also doesnt allow this dog to bully me (puppy learning not to jump..7 months). 

Now, when I have Ruby and Lincoln playing around and eating a cookie. if Ruby goes to try to take Lincolns and he growls at her thats as far as I will allow it to go because Lincoln weighs 65lbs and Ruby weighs 12lb so he could injure or kill her unintentionally. Same when I had the cat, I would stop him before it got to a bite.

I have only ever saw Lincoln use a full force, when my friend had his one dog over Link was eating a bully stick and both dogs were of a leadership personality, and the other dog would not stop pestering Link for the treat so Link gave his warning and he ignored it so Link went after him. Granted the fight lasted maybe 15 seconds and the other dog backed off. No fights since.

Dogs will be dogs..just dont let it get out of hand.


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## DaneMama

Most people don't realize that their dogs need so much sleep. Which is what actually causes some dogs to have behavioral problems, their owners are working them too much!

Linsey, the 17-20 statistic is just a guideline...each dog is different LOL


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## CorgiPaws

danemama08 said:


> Most people don't realize that their dogs need so much sleep. Which is what actually causes some dogs to have behavioral problems, their owners are working them too much!
> 
> Linsey, the 17-20 statistic is just a guideline...each dog is different LOL


Oh of course, as are all things with dogs, cats, or really any living creature. 

But, you know, Annie isn't like most living creatures. She's a Boxer. :biggrin:


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## DaneMama

CorgiPaws said:


> Oh of course, as are all things with dogs, cats, or really any living creature.
> 
> But, you know, Annie isn't like most living creatures. She's a Boxer. :biggrin:


Haha, that she is for sure!


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## SerenityFL

Natalie, I am not taking it the wrong way.

What is frustrating, and I was just reminded of this when I had Sakari out for her walk, is that the training, outside, is taking way longer than it should because I have neighbors who do not respect what I say when it comes to my dogs.

It took me a month to finally have the neighbors listen to me when I told them, "No, my dogs cannot play with your dogs right now, they have to go to the bathroom first. They do that first, THEN they play."

When there are no other dogs or humans around, they did splendidly. But as soon as they saw other dogs and humans, they went crazy. Now, I expect this, they are excited. Of course they want to play. And they will....just as soon as they go to the bathroom.

But my neighbors would say, "No, it's fine" and continue to bring their dogs over to mine. 

No, it's not fine. I am teaching them that we go to the bathroom first, then we play, that is the reward for going to the fricken bathroom when I tell them to "hurry up". To reward them for ignoring me....that set me back.

Now they have finally figured out what I am doing, and now they leave me alone when they see my dogs outside and we are in the bathroom areas. And now, my dogs go to the bathroom first, even if they see another dog or human, heck, they go faster now when they see another dog or human because they know, "I do this, I get to do that".

This is one of the reasons it was so difficult to house train Sakari. She would hold it and hold it and hold it because she did not want to go to the bathroom, why should she when that other human rewards her whether she goes or not?

This is why Sakari is definitely on leash when we are in the house because I am not 100% positive she won't pee in the house. People can say, all they want, "she should be housetrained by now" but it does require some fricken cooperation from the neighbors when I say, "Hold on, she has to go to the bathroom first before she comes over to play with your dogs" instead of the "Pscht, no she doesn't!!" I was getting.

Because they have NOW finally been cooperating, she's starting to get it. She does now go to the door, most of the time, not all the time, to let me know, she has to go. I didn't train her to go to the door but that is her way of letting me know she has to go. 

So we are slowly working our way to her being housetrained.

Shasta chews everything. That is why he is on leash in the house. He didn't start this destructive behavior until about two weeks ago. He always chewed what I gave him to chew. He does not want those things anymore, he wants to chew my things. So, we are learning what we are allowed to chew and what we are not allowed to chew. He is also getting it but he's not 100% there yet.

As for exercise, I get home and let them run for a good hour. With Shasta, he does so well on recall now that I let him off leash. I use a clicker and treats and he comes. Every once in awhile, he doesn't listen but it's during the day time and I feel more secure that there aren't alligators around for him to run in to. His recall is about 99% right now which is good. He learns quick, he's eager to please, the chicken hearts are really making a difference over other treats...so he gets to run and run and run. I play with him, I chase him, he chases me, etc. 

Sakari is just now learning recall. She's about 90%. The problem is, again, some of the neighbors. I have asked them, several times, if she runs up to you and you hear me calling her back, DO NOT reward her for running up to you. Ignore her! But they do not listen. They bend down, pet her, give her a fricken milkbone, (that burned me up because they don't eat milkbones), or they let their dogs play with her.

She can play with them, that's not a problem BUT, when I call her, she needs to come back. She isn't going to listen if she gets rewarded every time she runs off to another human.

So she spends time on a 30' leash. Unfortunately, she doesn't get as much exercise, running, as I'd like her to have because of it. But, she doesn't chew my things, either.

The point of this is to say that I am doing everything I know how to do with training and finding ways around distractions or disrespect from those who don't want to listen to my requests. I don't do that to them and their dogs, why on earth do they just dismiss my requests? It's frustrating as hell.

It makes training take longer. It has cut down on exercise time. Because of where I live, I let them run in the day. I will not let them run around here at night, no way. I can't see what is out there, they can't see what is out there, the animals start lurking around at night, so their exercise comes in the day time. 

In the house, after they are done with their exercise and training, I bring them in, put them in their crates where they eat dinner.

When dinner is done, I let them both out of their crates. They come in to the room I'm in. I do not wish to allow them to roam free until I know Sakari is 100% potty trained because I am not going to let her learn to go in the house as long as it's "where I am allowed". She needs to learn, go outside when she needs to go.

While I'm cleaning everything up and all that from feeding everyone, Shasta and Sakari are together, in the living room, right near me. They get to be together until it's time to take them out to use the bathroom again....usually about an hour. I take them out separately especially by this time because it's dark, there are a million mosquitoes and the sole purpose of this trip is to use the bathroom, not goof off.

I bring them back in, the other goes out, I bring that one back in, they are in the living room or at the table, next to me. IF they want to play with the cats, (which was another bit of training we had to work on in the house and why they were on leashes as well....until they learned how to act around the cats, no free roam), or if they want to play with each other, they are allowed. No, I do not have my dogs sitting like statues, as was suggested, but if they get to the point where they are getting out of hand, I tell them to stop. They get carried away, they start knocking things over, they start bashing in to the sliding glass door, they start stepping on cats...they need to calm down.

When I know they will both come back, 100% recall, they will get to go outside together and act ridiculous. I want this. I want them to get to this point because I can spend all that time with both at the same time instead of splitting their time.

I want Sakari to be 100% house trained so that when we go outside, she knows, "I do this, I get rewarded" and does it every time.

There have been setbacks, there have been delays and I'm sure the dogs are frustrated...I'm frustrated...not with them. This could be a whole lot easier if I had some cooperation.

However, I also know that I have to find a way to work around that and while I'm not an expert, I think I'm doing pretty good in spite of all the waving of the hand at my requests and the distractions and the one neighbor who lets his dogs run loose all over the neighborhood....this hasn't been a matter of me not doing any work. I've been working my @$$ off at this and having to find alternatives to work through it all.

So yes, more physical stimulation, absolutely, I agree. Letting them play together outside, absolutely, I agree. Letting them be in the house, off leash and out of crate while I'm there, absolutely, I agree.

It's just taking longer to get there.

Tonight was another setback for Sakari. She was doing brilliantly on recall. Came every single time. And then, she saw another human and dog, a dog she really likes and completely and totally ignored me and the clicker. And when she got to the other human and dog? He totally rewarded her for it. He knew I was trying to call her back, but hey, he doesn't care, you see, if my dog runs up to his dog, they're going to play. He doesn't get, yes, they can play, BUT, when Sakari comes back to me instead of taking off on a dead run, and then I bring her to the other dog and human to play.

So now I get to take a step back on her recall training. Which means she goes back on the 30' leash. Which means her and Shasta's time together outside is pushed back.

We will eventually get there....eventually....I've got almost all the neighbors on board. I have one last one to get through, to listen to me and my requests...and maybe, it'll happen. I keep trying to say, "Try it, just once, try it. Don't reward her when she comes barreling up to you. Watch what happens."

Maybe I should start snapping at the neighbors.


----------



## DaneMama

Maybe you should start snapping at the neighbors. That would be very frustrating to work with. I would probably snap at them if I were you. 

Have you tried working on recall in the house? If not I would take FULL advantage of that. Make sure the treats are considered gold to those puppies and give a good 10 whole seconds of praise when they come. Don't ever call them if you think they won't come. It teaches them to ignore you. Only call them when you are nearly certain that they will come. Also, don't ever call them to you when they are doing something much better than what you have to offer. 

Is Sakari still having accidents inside?

I still think you should set up a dog friendly area that they can play as rough and obnoxiously as they want without ruining things. I personally wouldn't settle dogs down if they are just playing but rather make it safe for them to play uninhibited.


----------



## SerenityFL

danemama08 said:


> Maybe you should start snapping at the neighbors. That would be very frustrating to work with. I would probably snap at them if I were you.
> 
> Have you tried working on recall in the house? If not I would take FULL advantage of that. Make sure the treats are considered gold to those puppies and give a good 10 whole seconds of praise when they come. Don't ever call them if you think they won't come. It teaches them to ignore you. Only call them when you are nearly certain that they will come. Also, don't ever call them to you when they are doing something much better than what you have to offer.
> 
> Is Sakari still having accidents inside?
> 
> I still think you should set up a dog friendly area that they can play as rough and obnoxiously as they want without ruining things. I personally wouldn't settle dogs down if they are just playing but rather make it safe for them to play uninhibited.


I do a little bit of recall training in the house, typically, as you said, when I KNOW they will come but I guess I should do more. What's funny is I've been working on having one stay seated and the other come when I call the name.

For example, "Shasta, sit! Shasta, stay! Sakari, come!"

Sakari starts to come, Shasta comes barreling over, Sakari goes back and sits down. Oy!

They do know their names because I say their names, to each dog, every single time I tell them to do something or talk to them, or pet them or reward them....so, I'm not sure what I'm doing wrong there.

"Don't ever call them when you think they won't come." I will definitely keep that one in mind!

The freeze dried liver treats and the dehydrated chicken hearts...yah, those are gold to them but apparently, that one dog is about 10 bars of gold to her.

What I do when we go outside is I pack my pockets with treats and have the clicker in one hand. After they have gone to the bathroom, (and I do give Sakari a treat for doing this when and where I tell her to and it's working well), I take them to the one side of the lake where there is room for them to run.

Before I let them off leash, I make them sit and look at me. I click the clicker and produce a treat. I do this twice so they know, "I got the treats, you hear this sound, you get a treat if you come back and sit."

And it works wonderfully. For Shasta, the only time he takes off is if he sees the Ibis wandering around on the grass. The first time, gold schmold, the treats meant nothing to him. However, the second time, he saw the Ibis, I caught the ear perk in time and clicked the clicker. He came back and got his reward and let the birds alone. That's why I say he's 99% because I still have to make sure that I catch that ear perk in time.

For Sakari, I'm pretty good at catching her when I see her interest start to perk up at something else and I'll click the clicker before she gets dead set on whatever it is and she'll come back. However, some times I don't see the human and his dog in time...she'll see them before I do and it's over. Tonight I kinda did snap at him....well, to be totally honest, I did some cursing because I'm sick of these people being so stupid. But anyway, enough about that.

The last time Sakari had an accident inside the house was a little over a week ago. Since the neighbors are finally on board with that, it's been so much easier. Plus, I try not to give her a chance to go in the house.

I get up early in the morning, take them out, one by one, have them go to the bathroom. I go back to sleep for the rest of my two hours before the alarm goes off.

I get up again and take them out, one by one.

I come back in, get ready for work, they go in their crates for the day.

I come home, let them out, one by one, use the bathroom. Then I have them exercise and train, one by one.

They come in, eat in their crates. When done I let them out in the house. (With leash.)

About an hour later, I take them out, one by one, they go to the bathroom.

We come back in, they are in the house, on leash. (Now, on leash doesn't mean tethered to me...one will be next to me at the table and the other is in the living room but the leashes are on because they are chain and I can hear the leashes dragging if one gets up to try to leave the room. This way, if it's Sakari, I can hear it, look at her and see if she's at the door or if she's sniffing around...and can take her out. Also if Shasta gets up to leave the room to go chew on something, I can hear the leash dragging on the floor and catch him before he does any damage.)

They are allowed to be together, if they want but they are not allowed to roam around, freely. If I have one at the table and the one in the living room wants to come over to us at the table, I don't push that dog away. I let them both be at the table until they start to get out of control...that doesn't always happen. Sometimes it happens. Or, if the dog next to me at the table wants to play with the one in the living room, I will let them go there when I know I can watch with 100% attention and let them play.

If I am going to bed early that night, I'll take them out again before bed. I will then get up at about 3am to take them out again.

If I am off the next day, I'll stay up till the wee hours and will take them out about every 4 hours.

So, I am trying to prevent her from having an accident by being vigilant with her bathroom breaks as well as knowing where she is at all times. But again, now that the neighbors are finally respecting my wish that the dogs go to the bathroom first, then play, Sakari is doing really well with house training. I do not know, however, if I let her roam free or if I don't take her out so often, if she'll pee on my carpet or if she'll go to the door.

As for a place to play in the house...I had actually tried to find a way to do this before I ever got them their crates. All the baby gates were too wide for my narrow doorways and the way the place is set up, trying to find one that would work across a wider area, not a doorway, was either insanely expensive or may not sit right.

I also looked at those indoor cage area things....it seemed too small. If they were little dogs, maybe it would work but Shasta is going to be probably 40 pounds and she'll be about 25....it just seemed small.

It would be cool....just not sure how to go about making that work.


----------



## DaneMama

SerenityFL said:


> I do a little bit of recall training in the house, typically, as you said, when I KNOW they will come but I guess I should do more. What's funny is I've been working on having one stay seated and the other come when I call the name.
> 
> For example, "Shasta, sit! Shasta, stay! Sakari, come!"
> 
> Sakari starts to come, Shasta comes barreling over, Sakari goes back and sits down. Oy!
> 
> They do know their names because I say their names, to each dog, every single time I tell them to do something or talk to them, or pet them or reward them....so, I'm not sure what I'm doing wrong there.


I think you are jumping the gun a bit here. Get their recall individually down nearly perfectly before you start making it more difficult. 

Also the que for "sit" doesn't necessarily mean stay or wait, unless when you do want them to stay you say sit instead. For a sit stay, you have to say "sit" then give the que for "stay" then bring up the distraction (in this case you calling the other dog over to you). 

I think that is why you are having issues with this. Take it back a step and work with them individually with come, sit and stay. Once they get it down perfect, then start adding in distractions.



> "Don't ever call them when you think they won't come." I will definitely keep that one in mind!


I don't know how many people make the mistake of calling their dogs when they are going to punish them. Like for example, when I first met Jon (jdatwood) he had issues with Shiloh getting out of the house. He would try and call her to him when she got out but she would take one look and turn the other way and take off. You wanna know why? Because initially when she got out he would call her to him, she'd come and then he would proceed to punish her. What is she associating that with? Coming to him! So...now she still only really comes to me when called. 

Don't call a puppy to you from a play session, they are having fun and you calling them to you is a negative thing for them. Go and get your puppy.



> The freeze dried liver treats and the dehydrated chicken hearts...yah, those are gold to them but apparently, that one dog is about 10 bars of gold to her.


This is too high of a distraction for her at this point. Right now that dog is more valuable to her than your treats, but you need to work up to making your call and treats more valuable. This will take more practice in a less distracted area with high incentive treats and praise. 

I would also expand your treat base. You don't want them to get bored with just those two things. Mix it up.



> What I do when we go outside is I pack my pockets with treats and have the clicker in one hand. After they have gone to the bathroom, (and I do give Sakari a treat for doing this when and where I tell her to and it's working well), I take them to the one side of the lake where there is room for them to run.
> 
> Before I let them off leash, I make them sit and look at me. I click the clicker and produce a treat. I do this twice so they know, "I got the treats, you hear this sound, you get a treat if you come back and sit."
> 
> And it works wonderfully. For Shasta, the only time he takes off is if he sees the Ibis wandering around on the grass. The first time, gold schmold, the treats meant nothing to him. However, the second time, he saw the Ibis, I caught the ear perk in time and clicked the clicker. He came back and got his reward and let the birds alone. That's why I say he's 99% because I still have to make sure that I catch that ear perk in time.


Sounds like you're doing everything so far by textbook standards. Keep up the good work. If I would suggest anything, give plenty of praise.



> Tonight I kinda did snap at him....well, to be totally honest, I did some cursing because I'm sick of these people being so stupid. But anyway, enough about that.


Good for you. Stand up for yourself. Make it known your rules.



> The last time Sakari had an accident inside the house was a little over a week ago. Since the neighbors are finally on board with that, it's been so much easier. Plus, I try not to give her a chance to go in the house.


Good, keep up the good work!



> We come back in, they are in the house, on leash. (Now, on leash doesn't mean tethered to me...one will be next to me at the table and the other is in the living room but the leashes are on because they are chain and I can hear the leashes dragging if one gets up to try to leave the room. This way, if it's Sakari, I can hear it, look at her and see if she's at the door or if she's sniffing around...and can take her out. Also if Shasta gets up to leave the room to go chew on something, I can hear the leash dragging on the floor and catch him before he does any damage.)


Could you put bells on their collars (different ones for each dog so they sound distinct) instead of having them on leads? This still just seems too restrictive to me...? Or maybe baby gate parts of the house so they only have access to certain areas?



> They are allowed to be together, if they want but they are not allowed to roam around, freely. If I have one at the table and the one in the living room wants to come over to us at the table, I don't push that dog away. I let them both be at the table until they start to get out of control...that doesn't always happen. Sometimes it happens. Or, if the dog next to me at the table wants to play with the one in the living room, I will let them go there when I know I can watch with 100% attention and let them play.
> 
> If I am going to bed early that night, I'll take them out again before bed. I will then get up at about 3am to take them out again.
> 
> If I am off the next day, I'll stay up till the wee hours and will take them out about every 4 hours.


How many hours of good mental/physical interaction do you think they get a day? Like they are panting out of breath....that was a good run type of exercise? Or mental stimulation like training sessions?



> So, I am trying to prevent her from having an accident by being vigilant with her bathroom breaks as well as knowing where she is at all times. But again, now that the neighbors are finally respecting my wish that the dogs go to the bathroom first, then play, Sakari is doing really well with house training. I do not know, however, if I let her roam free or if I don't take her out so often, if she'll pee on my carpet or if she'll go to the door.


The only way is to give her freedom gradually and see how she does with it.



> As for a place to play in the house...I had actually tried to find a way to do this before I ever got them their crates. All the baby gates were too wide for my narrow doorways and the way the place is set up, trying to find one that would work across a wider area, not a doorway, was either insanely expensive or may not sit right.
> 
> I also looked at those indoor cage area things....it seemed too small. If they were little dogs, maybe it would work but Shasta is going to be probably 40 pounds and she'll be about 25....it just seemed small.
> 
> It would be cool....just not sure how to go about making that work.


What about a gate like this one?










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----------



## SerenityFL

danemama08 said:


> I think you are jumping the gun a bit here. Get their recall individually down nearly perfectly before you start making it more difficult.
> 
> Also the que for "sit" doesn't necessarily mean stay or wait, unless when you do want them to stay you say sit instead. For a sit stay, you have to say "sit" then give the que for "stay" then bring up the distraction (in this case you calling the other dog over to you).
> 
> I think that is why you are having issues with this. Take it back a step and work with them individually with come, sit and stay. Once they get it down perfect, then start adding in distractions.


I do say "stay" and I admit, Sakari does pretty good with "stay" but Shasta....not so much. I started out doing "stay" in very small increments of time and gradually built that up but there are times when Shasta says, "No, I don't think I'm going to stay". 

But yes, I will work on getting them to come every single time as well as work on Shasta fricken staying when I tell him to stay and THEN we'll move on to one come, one stay.



danemama08 said:


> I don't know how many people make the mistake of calling their dogs when they are going to punish them. Like for example, when I first met Jon (jdatwood) he had issues with Shiloh getting out of the house. He would try and call her to him when she got out but she would take one look and turn the other way and take off. You wanna know why? Because initially when she got out he would call her to him, she'd come and then he would proceed to punish her. What is she associating that with? Coming to him! So...now she still only really comes to me when called.


That is something I do not do. I knew that from the beginning and even when I'm mad at them for taking off and not listening, when they DO come back, I still reward them for coming. What I don't know how to do is have them learn that running off is wrong especially when the human they are running to rewards them for doing it. Any ideas about that? I'd LOVE to hear them!!!!!!! 



danemama08 said:


> Don't call a puppy to you from a play session, they are having fun and you calling them to you is a negative thing for them. Go and get your puppy.


Duly noted.



danemama08 said:


> This is too high of a distraction for her at this point. Right now that dog is more valuable to her than your treats, but you need to work up to making your call and treats more valuable. This will take more practice in a less distracted area with high incentive treats and praise.


Yah, that is a bit of a problem. I try, very hard, to go out at different times than the other people with their dogs. Some days, we have the space to ourselves and some days it seems that every Tom, Dick and Harry wants to be out at that exact time even if it's not their normal time to be out. (Most people around here keep pretty much the same schedule...) The other problem is the one neighbor who lets his dogs run loose around the neighborhood. He's had a few people talk to him about that but while he apologizes for it, he doesn't change it. I've also tried talking to him about it but "they need their exercise". Well, that's fine but how about you be outside with them while they are getting it! So I keep my dogs away from his as much as possible.



danemama08 said:


> I would also expand your treat base. You don't want them to get bored with just those two things. Mix it up.


Yah, the dehydrated liver treats and chicken hearts are new to them so right now they think these are the best things on the planet. (Except for that one dog for Sakari.) I did get a food dehydrator so that I can dehydrate other organs or meats for treats. I'm going to do more this weekend, (my weekend), so have a fresh supply ready.



danemama08 said:


> Sounds like you're doing everything so far by textbook standards. Keep up the good work. If I would suggest anything, give plenty of praise.


I read what you wrote earlier about giving praise for 10 seconds. I took Sakari out to use the bathroom after reading that. She went both bathrooms in the area I've only been begging her to use for an eternity now and my first reaction was to say, "Good girl! Good girl! Very good girl!" which is how I have been doing it. But tonight, after reading what you wrote, I threw her a ticker tape parade and made her the queen on the "Best Dog In The World" float. She danced around and jumped for joy so I think I'll keep that up.



danemama08 said:


> Good for you. Stand up for yourself. Make it known your rules.


I live around a lot of very close minded people who think they know everything. I have been told so many things it's laughable. "Dogs can survive out here in the Everglades." Yah, right. "I never trained my dog and he's just fine." Uh-huh, and that's why your dog never comes to you when you call him. "I beat my dog, that's how they learn." You are an idiot. Etc. This final neighbor is an older guy who is dead set in his ways, is the one who "never trained" his dog and look, his dog follows him wherever he goes. Of course, his dog is also old and doesn't do much anymore, either.

They really despise me standing up for myself but I continue to do it. That's how I finally got most of them to respect the bathroom thing. Sure, I was called all sorts of names behind my back, I don't care. It's this last neighbor...


danemama08 said:


> Good, keep up the good work!


I'm trying. It really is a lot of time I spend with them. It may have sounded, initially, like I just threw them in their crates all day and then bound them by leash at night but that's not correct. I sometimes don't know how to get things across because I try to get to the point of the issue without talking about all the other things that goes on. So, "I keep them separate most of the time" sounds like, "they never get to see each other". These last posts have been really long because I'm trying to describe everything, in detail, so as not to give off the wrong impression...and I still forgot to state that I do tell them, "stay" after "sit".



danemama08 said:


> Could you put bells on their collars (different ones for each dog so they sound distinct) instead of having them on leads? This still just seems too restrictive to me...? Or maybe baby gate parts of the house so they only have access to certain areas?


My only concern about that is that sometimes they manage to get their collars off. It has happened twice...so not a lot but it has happened and I'm afraid they'll eat the bells. But, I guess they haven't eaten their tags so this is something I'm willing to try.



danemama08 said:


> How many hours of good mental/physical interaction do you think they get a day? Like they are panting out of breath....that was a good run type of exercise? Or mental stimulation like training sessions?


Panting and out of breath, absolutely. This is how I knew to give them about an hour, (Sakari a little less for her). For example, when Shasta was allowed off leash, I let him run and run and run in circles, chase him, have him chase me, etc and we would do this until he was lying down, tongue hanging out, breathing heavily. Ok, then I would get up and we would take one more lap around the grassy area, at a walk or if he wanted to run, he could...but typically he's walking and ready to go back in.

Mental stimulation like training sessions...I do about 5-10 minutes at a time about 3-4 times a day. I was told not to do too long, do small increments of time, break them up throughout the day. Sometimes I have to back track on some things but they really do know a lot.



danemama08 said:


> The only way is to give her freedom gradually and see how she does with it.


Well, I guess I can try it this weekend, (my weekend), and see how she does.



danemama08 said:


> What about a gate like this one?


That wood would be destroyed in a matter of days. Not just by the dogs but also the cats who LOVE wood. To scratch on. I was trying to find plastic ones...there are tons that I would love to have, the problem was the width. My doors are 24" wide. The narrowest one I could find was 26". That's why I decided to try looking for larger ones that you could use to basically divide a room....and that's when things started getting pricey. I still look, don't get me wrong but not as intensely as I did for that two weeks. Seriously, two solid weeks I looked. If I ever do find one, I will absolutely get one.

As an alternative, I did try one of those remote things where it looks like a smoke detector and you put that in the area where you don't want the dogs to go while they wear collars. (This was early on so please don't beat me up for this.) Shasta was able to handle it, he didn't like it, but he handled it and it worked fairly well. Sakari? Not good. She reacted very poorly...meaning, it scared the ever loving carp out of her and I do not wish to have my dogs feel that way so that is out. I will not anything like that again in the house. (The only time I will use anything like that is to teach them that alligators are a strong negative...but we had this discussion awhile ago.)

So, yah, I'm still looking but it has to fit a doorway 24" wide and it should be steel or plastic or whatever...but not wood. Or if I can find one that would divide a room and not cost me an arm and a leg...


----------



## RawFedDogs

SerenityFL said:


> First, I have been keeping them separate a lot because, as was pointed out, they are litter mates and they did need to learn to become their own and also have time with me, to bond.


You do need to do things seperately with each one. I suggest half the walks be seperate and half be together. Practically all the time they need to be trained sperately. When you get to more advanced training you will train them together. When I run errands and the weather is not too hot I try to take one of the dogs with me. That seperates them some too and gives them time with you alone.



> Second, I do let them play together some times. I don't keep them separate all day, every day. What I mean by keep them separate is that they have their own crates, I take them to the bathroom separately,


They should be together almost all the time except for the instances listed above. Honestly, it won't be long before they barely notice the other is there or not there. Right now they are together so little, it is a novelty to be together and they make a big deal out of it.



> I train them separately until I know they know the commands, 100%. When I first started with them, I did take them out at the same time and it was total and complete mayhem. When I started taking them out separately, they learned things quick and acted much better.


Good luck on that. :smile: In 15 years as a professional dog trainer, I never knew a dog that was 100%.



> In the house, again, yes, most of the time, they are apart.


This is when they should be together all the time. Once they get used to being with each other, your problems will almost never happen.



> However, not all the time. At night when going to sleep, as I said, I was beginning to let them be out of the crate and they were getting along well. They mouth each other, do play biting, lick each other, paw each other, etc. Then they settled down and went to sleep.


As long as they are not destructive encourage this. Don't keep them from this. All you describe is normal puppy life.



> When I said he got a crash course training on what he was allowed to chew and what he wasn't allowed to chew, I meant it. He chomped my remote control and it wasn't even a matter of, "You destroyed this!" because I can get another one. It was a matter of, he chomped and ate plastic, he chomped through batteries....not good.


Regardless of what its made from, they need to be taught what to chew and what not to chew. You see, dogs don't have a concept of value of items or ownership. To a dog, a $2,000 dining room table is no different than a tree limb that has fallen off a tree. Its a piece of wood, period. He's not trying to do something to get back at you or anything along those lines.



> I have them on leashes, in the house, because they are not allowed out of my site while out of their crates. It doesn't take but 5 seconds for one of them to sneak off and get in to something or chew something or whatever so they stay with me.


This is the paragraph that really bothers me. "not allowed out of my site" is alright when puppies are still being destructive BUT its very restrictive. They sould be able to wander around on their own. This is how they learn about their world. Loosen up some. They aren't robots.



> Third, Sakari did not growl about the bone last night. I have heard her growl about things before, and I allow her to do that because I was told, if I do not allow a dog to communicate, they will just act out, so I have let her growl. But last night, she full on just snapped. There was no warning growl.


You are too afraid and wasting a lot of energy worrying about them having a fight to the death. Thats no going to happen. They understand the concept of the pack and pack members don't kill each other.



> Fourth, I have cats. She has growled at the cats because she doesn't like them being where she is. I can't take the risk of her injuring a cat. So while I know to let her communicate, I am trying to figure out how to stop her being so possessive of things.


I have 2 cats and 2 Great Danes. Its the cat's responsibility to say out of the way of the dogs. They are told that the first day they come to live her. You should see the look on the face of a new cat first time be bring him in the house and he sees the 2 dogs. The soon find themselves under the bed and don't come out for a couple of days. They eventually begin to venture out from under the bed and get more and more brave. They learn to tell when the dogs have no interest in them and when the dogs are in the "I'm gonna kill me a cat" mode. Occasionally the cats will attack a dog then run for cover. Cats are much faster than dogs and can find a safe place almost instantly. Anyway, now I'm rambling but its the cat's responsibilty to avoid the dogs and they do it well. Yours will too.



> Tonight, I did allow them to be together, in the house. I was actually kind of playing with them. Sort of. I was right there and I was giving them attention...quite a bit of attention. Sakari, at one point, decided she wanted all the attention and again, without a growl, snapped at Shasta. It wasn't playing, it was, "get away from me NOW!"


They should be allowed to play without your influence a good bit also.



> I guess where I'm getting confused is between these two things:
> 
> 1) Let the dog communicate, let them establish their structure or whatever you want to call it, if they really intended to bite, they would, dogs don't miss, etc.


Yes



> 2) Those dog behavior shows, Victoria Stillwell and the like, are always going to houses where one dog snaps and attacks the other family dogs and the owners are to blame because they didn't know the correct way to stop the behavior. I don't want to be one of those people. I don't want to get to the point where Sakari is terrorizing the other animals because I didn't stop anything in the beginning.


The cases Victoria sees, and I used to see the same thing often, is when the humans try to control interaction between the dogs and try to make them be like humans instead of dogs. The advice I have if you don't want to be one of those is leave the dogs alone and let them be dogs. Of course you teach them all of the normal behaviors they need to know, just don't insist they act by human ediquite most of the time. Yes, when you have company, they should be taught how to act like little humans, but most of their lives they should be allowed to be dogs. Loosen up on the structure and the control over every movement they make in their daily lives.



> I just don't want to end up with an out of control dog that beats the crap out of the other animals because I did not do the right thing the first time I saw it happen.


You won't. The less you intefere with normal dog behavior, the happier you and the dogs will be. I know it will be difficult at first but you soon get used to it.


----------



## SerenityFL

RawFedDogs said:


> You do need to do things seperately with each one. I suggest half the walks be seperate and half be together. Practically all the time they need to be trained sperately. When you get to more advanced training you will train them together. When I run errands and the weather is not too hot I try to take one of the dogs with me. That seperates them some too and gives them time with you alone.


You know what? The half walk separate, half walk together is a very good idea. I'm going to do that.



RawFedDogs said:


> They should be together almost all the time except for the instances listed above. Honestly, it won't be long before they barely notice the other is there or not there. Right now they are together so little, it is a novelty to be together and they make a big deal out of it.


Ok.



RawFedDogs said:


> Good luck on that. :smile: In 15 years as a professional dog trainer, I never knew a dog that was 100%.


Shasta is almost there and Sakari, if I can get her to stop running to that other dog, she'll be at about 99% as well. The reason I strive for 100%, and the only reason I strive for 100% is because of where I live. I do have them run around in the day time which minimizes their chances of encountering an alligator but it doesn't completely eradicate it. So, the closer to 100% they are, the better. 



RawFedDogs said:


> This is when they should be together all the time. Once they get used to being with each other, your problems will almost never happen.
> 
> As long as they are not destructive encourage this. Don't keep them from this. All you describe is normal puppy life.


The only time I put one back in the crate is when they start chewing on something I own like the covers or the remote. [Edit, I should clarify that I mean when they are near me, at night, when getting ready for bed.] However, Sakari never really did that and Shasta, as I said, got a crash course training on what to chew and what not to chew. But I still don't feel 100% that he won't chew my stuff. However, I ordered the antlers and I'm hoping that when those get here, (should be soon), that will keep his mouth occupied and he'll find them far more attractive than a stupid remote control. Right now, the Kong and other things I have for them to chew, they don't really like anymore.



RawFedDogs said:


> Regardless of what its made from, they need to be taught what to chew and what not to chew. You see, dogs don't have a concept of value of items or ownership. To a dog, a $2,000 dining room table is no different than a tree limb that has fallen off a tree. Its a piece of wood, period. He's not trying to do something to get back at you or anything along those lines.


No, I understand that. Again, it wasn't the matter of "You killed my remote, now I can't watch t.v.!" because whatever, I can get another one from the satellite company. It was that he ate the plastic and bit in to the batteries. That cannot be healthy.



RawFedDogs said:


> This is the paragraph that really bothers me. "not allowed out of my site" is alright when puppies are still being destructive BUT its very restrictive. They sould be able to wander around on their own. This is how they learn about their world. Loosen up some. They aren't robots.


I understand that. In the beginning they were leashed because they did not know how to play with the cats. They were way too...heavy handed. Sakari never really cared much but Shasta didn't realize that he could easily injure them. He has learned and I feel far more comfortable with them and the cats....in fact, the cats have taken to running past them at top speed or around them, and the cats have been sleeping next to Shasta on the bed so that's a good sign. 

I don't expect them to be robots but again, it doesn't take but 5 seconds for a dog to sneak off to pee or chew something and if that happens, that's my fault, right? For not keeping my eye on them.



RawFedDogs said:


> You are too afraid and wasting a lot of energy worrying about them having a fight to the death. Thats no going to happen. They understand the concept of the pack and pack members don't kill each other.


I just don't want them to end up like the dogs I see on those dog training shows where one snaps and attacks the other dogs in the house. Maybe I don't have a problem....maybe I watch too much t.v.



RawFedDogs said:


> I have 2 cats and 2 Great Danes. Its the cat's responsibility to say out of the way of the dogs. They are told that the first day they come to live her. You should see the look on the face of a new cat first time be bring him in the house and he sees the 2 dogs. The soon find themselves under the bed and don't come out for a couple of days. They eventually begin to venture out from under the bed and get more and more brave. They learn to tell when the dogs have no interest in them and when the dogs are in the "I'm gonna kill me a cat" mode. Occasionally the cats will attack a dog then run for cover. Cats are much faster than dogs and can find a safe place almost instantly. Anyway, now I'm rambling but its the cat's responsibilty to avoid the dogs and they do it well. Yours will too.


See above.



RawFedDogs said:


> They should be allowed to play without your influence a good bit also.


What does that mean? I just let them run around outside without watching them?



RawFedDogs said:


> Yes


Well, good, I've been trying to follow that.



RawFedDogs said:


> The cases Victoria sees, and I used to see the same thing often, is when the humans try to control interaction between the dogs and try to make them be like humans instead of dogs. The advice I have if you don't want to be one of those is leave the dogs alone and let them be dogs. Of course you teach them all of the normal behaviors they need to know, just don't insist they act by human ediquite most of the time. Yes, when you have company, they should be taught how to act like little humans, but most of their lives they should be allowed to be dogs. Loosen up on the structure and the control over every movement they make in their daily lives.


I don't treat my dogs like humans, they are dogs. I just don't allow them to act insane inside the house, company or not. Can they play, sure. Can they bark and growl, sure....(barking to a point...I do have neighbors), can they fling their toys in the air and chase them, of course. Can they jump on the furniture and tear around the house at top speed, slamming in to the sliding glass door, thrash through the garbage and flip it all over the house? Absolutely not. That will never change.



RawFedDogs said:


> You won't. The less you intefere with normal dog behavior, the happier you and the dogs will be. I know it will be difficult at first but you soon get used to it.


Ok. Again, perhaps I got anxious when she snapped at him because I see too many of those shows about dogs who terrorize the other animals in the house and that included snapping and such.

I'm going to try the half walk separate and half walk together thing....I think they are ready for that and that could make a big difference. Where I may have been too militant is that I wanted them to know everything 100% separately but maybe just allowing them bathroom breaks and training be separate, part of the walk separate will be enough, for the outside part. And that's kind of a relief, really because I want them to be together on walks outside so badly. I think they would like it and I'd like it as well.

Eventually I'd like them to both be off leash, outside, together and they both come when I call them. That's my ideal. Because then I can play with both of them, they can wear each other out, (I look forward to that), and they get more time outside since it doesn't have to be cut in half as the daylight dwindles. So, we'll start with the walk thing...some separate, some together.

By the way, right now we have worked on basic commands such as sit, stay, where and when to go to the bathroom, (again, because of where I live, that is very important when it's after dark--and by "when" I mean, when we go out the door and the first thing they do is go to the area and "hurry up" before they play), leave it, even things like "left" "right" (which holy cow, they actually know what that means!), "tree" (which is our meeting spot outside when they are off leash), "off" (I actually don't have to use that much, they are good at that), and just how to behave around the cats, how to sit and be relatively calm when another human comes to pet them, (which took awhile for the other humans to get on board with but they have now, Thank GOD), and the recall. Other little things and some stupid tricks that are of no consequence other than to keep their minds busy.

So, what are some things to teach with "advanced" training? Granted, we still have some work to do on some of the basics, (stay being one for Shasta), but would like to have an idea of what to look forward to in the future. To be honest, "heel" I'm not too concerned about because they are not show dogs. As long as they don't pull on the leash, I'm happy and they do pretty good with that, most of the time, the leash is lax...

So what else in the future?

Thanks.

Edit edit: Sorry guys, I've been forgetting to "thank" you. I did some and will go back tonight and do so as well because you've been helpful. Right now though, I'm going to be late for work if I do not get off the computer this instant. But please know, I do thank you for taking the time to help.


----------



## RawFedDogs

SerenityFL said:


> The only time I put one back in the crate is when they start chewing on something I own like the covers or the remote. [Edit, I should clarify that I mean when they are near me, at night, when getting ready for bed.]


The best way to use a crate in that manner is to put the dog in it for a "time out" for 2 minutes. No more. When he is chewing something he isn't supposed to (you must catch him in the act), immedately without hesitating, put him in the crate for 2 minutes. Don't say anything to him. Don't fuss at him. Just put him in the crate and walk away. This will leave him 2 minutes by himself to think about why he was put in the crate. When you let him out, just walk over, open the door and let him out. NO harsh tones no nothing. Just show a completely neutral attitude.



> I don't expect them to be robots but again, it doesn't take but 5 seconds for a dog to sneak off to pee or chew something and if that happens, that's my fault, right? For not keeping my eye on them.


Right but a few seconds isn't a big deal. If you watch them you can usually tell if they are looking for a bathroom place.



> I just don't want them to end up like the dogs I see on those dog training shows where one snaps and attacks the other dogs in the house. Maybe I don't have a problem....maybe I watch too much t.v.


I don't think you have a problem with puppies. I strongly suspect that the owners caused those problems you saw on tv by trying to avoid them. Back in my dog training days, I had too many cases of owner caused behavior problems while they were trying to prevent the very problems they caused.



> What does that mean? I just let them run around outside without watching them?


Depends on the setting. If you have a pretty secure fenced yard, yes. You can sit in a lawn chair or something and watch them. What I mean is don't try to control their environment and every move. Just let them play or explore like you weren't there. If you don't have a fenced yard, its altogether different.



> I don't treat my dogs like humans, they are dogs. I just don't allow them to act insane inside the house, company or not. Can they play, sure. Can they bark and growl, sure....(barking to a point...I do have neighbors), can they fling their toys in the air and chase them, of course.


Thats not the impression I got from your earlier posts.



> Can they jump on the furniture and tear around the house at top speed, slamming in to the sliding glass door, thrash through the garbage and flip it all over the house? Absolutely not. That will never change.


Sure ... once they run into the glass door a few times, they will learn to control themselves around it but they have to be allowed to do it in order to learn. Garbage can should be pretty much dog proof.



> Eventually I'd like them to both be off leash, outside, together and they both come when I call them. That's my ideal. Because then I can play with both of them, they can wear each other out, (I look forward to that), and they get more time outside since it doesn't have to be cut in half as the daylight dwindles. So, we'll start with the walk thing...some separate, some together.


This gives me the impression you don't have a fenced yard. If there is any way possible to get one, I strongly recommend you do. This makes having dogs sooo much easier.



> By the way, right now we have worked on basic commands such as sit, stay, where and when to go to the bathroom, (again, because of where I live, that is very important when it's after dark--and by "when" I mean, when we go out the door and the first thing they do is go to the area and "hurry up" before they play), leave it, even things like "left" "right" (which holy cow, they actually know what that means!), "tree" (which is our meeting spot outside when they are off leash), "off" (I actually don't have to use that much, they are good at that), and just how to behave around the cats, how to sit and be relatively calm when another human comes to pet them, (which took awhile for the other humans to get on board with but they have now, Thank GOD), and the recall. Other little things and some stupid tricks that are of no consequence other than to keep their minds busy.


All that is impressive.



> So, what are some things to teach with "advanced" training? Granted, we still have some work to do on some of the basics, (stay being one for Shasta), but would like to have an idea of what to look forward to in the future. To be honest, "heel" I'm not too concerned about because they are not show dogs. As long as they don't pull on the leash, I'm happy and they do pretty good with that, most of the time, the leash is lax...
> 
> So what else in the future?


I too am more concerned with loose leash walking than heeling. Advanced things to teach would be things like open and close the door. Maybe retrieving a beer from the fridge :biggrin: . Bring the paper in. Close cabinet doors. Pick up and put away toys.

I had 2 Goldens several years ago and taught them a fun game calle "find the ball". I would put them both in a sit/stay in the den then walk somewhere in the house and hide a tennis ball. I would return and tell one to stay and the other "find the ball". The "finder" would zip through the house looking for the ball. Didn't matter where I put it, if they could reach it they could find it. It was fantastic watching them search a room. Sniffing all around the room down low, the move their head a couple of feet off the floor and repeating the search, then moving their head as high as it would go and repeat the search again. I didn't teach them how to search. They just figured it out by themselves. The only thing I taught was "go get the ball and bring it back to the den". I could hide the ball under the bed, under pillows or blankets on the bed, in dirty clothes hamper, under a pile of dirty clothes on the floor. They could find it anywhere in a matter of seconds. They would have made wonderful drug dogs. Enough rambling ... shut up and sit down, RFD. :biggrin:


----------



## SerenityFL

RawFedDogs said:


> The best way to use a crate in that manner is to put the dog in it for a "time out" for 2 minutes. No more. When he is chewing something he isn't supposed to (you must catch him in the act), immedately without hesitating, put him in the crate for 2 minutes. Don't say anything to him. Don't fuss at him. Just put him in the crate and walk away. This will leave him 2 minutes by himself to think about why he was put in the crate. When you let him out, just walk over, open the door and let him out. NO harsh tones no nothing. Just show a completely neutral attitude.


Yep, that's what I do, time wise, for the "time out" about 2-3 minutes. I have, however, told him, "No chew", take him by the leash, lead him back to his crate and put him in without another word. When I take him out, I wait for him to sit, (he is not allowed to bolt out of the crate), I open the door and then I give him some affection.

You are saying don't say anything at all and when I let him out I just ignore him still?

Another thing I did, and you'll probably tell me this was wrong but it worked so...after he chewed through two of my work shirts, I brought them over to him and when he went to put his mouth on them, I said, "Ah!" I did this a few times. Now I can bring my work shirt over to him and he turns his head away. I tried it with my work jacket, I did it with my shoes, I did it with the beat up remote control...so, maybe not the way you would like or others would like but it worked. He doesn't touch those things anymore. The downside to this, and I do see some, is that I don't want to have to go through my entire house doing this with everything, one by one. There must be a better way to keep him from chewing my things even if I don't catch him in the act. If I caught him in the act, of course it would be easier but how do I teach him not to chew my dang stuff in the first place?



RawFedDogs said:


> Right but a few seconds isn't a big deal. If you watch them you can usually tell if they are looking for a bathroom place.


I have missed her in that few seconds but, again, this is changing because ever since the neighbors have decided to respect my fricken wishes about the dogs going to the bathroom first, when they are outside, she is getting the housetraining thing down fast. I did not teach her this but she does now walk to the door, I'll ask, "Do you have to go to the bathroom?" and she'll sit. I take her out, she goes to the bathroom....so yah, that is new and different and things are rapidly changing for the better in that area. 



RawFedDogs said:


> I don't think you have a problem with puppies. I strongly suspect that the owners caused those problems you saw on tv by trying to avoid them. Back in my dog training days, I had too many cases of owner caused behavior problems while they were trying to prevent the very problems they caused.


Right, it is the owner's fault which is why I was asking in the first place because I didn't want to be one of those people. But, right now I have brought out a toy, they are in the living room, I can see them, and they are playing with said toy. Sakari snapped once, does some occasional growling and they did tug of war for a bit until Shasta gave up. (The pansy.) I'm trying very hard not to stress the growling if you all say that growling is not aggression and I don't have a problem. Not easy, but we'll see what happens.



RawFedDogs said:


> Depends on the setting. If you have a pretty secure fenced yard, yes. You can sit in a lawn chair or something and watch them. What I mean is don't try to control their environment and every move. Just let them play or explore like you weren't there. If you don't have a fenced yard, its altogether different.


I do not have a fence and because of where I live, I cannot erect a fence. This is not my property.



RawFedDogs said:


> Thats not the impression I got from your earlier posts.





RawFedDogs said:


> Sure ... once they run into the glass door a few times, they will learn to control themselves around it but they have to be allowed to do it in order to learn. Garbage can should be pretty much dog proof.


As I explained to Natalie in a response to her, I typically focus on the issue at hand and don't explain every last detail that goes on the rest of the time. For example, earlier you stated that I should put them in the crate for 2 minutes as a time out. I had only said that when I see one of them chew, (well, Shasta, really), something they shouldn't, I put them in the crate. It didn't mean I don't do a 2-3 minute time out...I just talk about basics....but I'm trying hard to get very detailed.

(Sakari just growled, snapped and barked and growled again....you have no idea how hard it is for me not to step in because I do not want to be raising a princess dog.)

Where was I...when I said they were separate most of the time, I meant hours of the day thinking that during the day, they are in their own crates. I get home, they go to the bathroom, get trained, do some exercise, separate. They come back in, it's dinner time. I feed them in their crates and that is one thing I will not change. THEN, they get to come out. I put one in the living room, one by me. IF one wants to come over, they can but IF the dogs start flinging themselves all over the place out of control, one goes back to the living room and one stays by me. For a period of time. 

And Shasta has indeed slammed in to the sliding glass door, heck, he used to slam himself against the door on purpose when I went outside with Sakari. Glass is not cheap, I would have a giant hole in my house, all the pets could get out and there's also that thing about glass cutting. 

(Good God, more growling and barking....tug of war and a snap....)

I don't want him breaking that door so he is not allowed to fly around the house like that. The garbage is in a cupboard under the sink but they have, apparently, already learned how to open doors. (Guess they advanced trained themselves with that one.)

So, yes, they can play together but when they go berserk in the house, they get separated for a period of time.

So if you were to count up the hours of the day, yes, they are separate most of the time. 

This is also changing as I have started to allow them to be out next to me while sleeping....which, Sakari does very well but Shasta starts chewing things. So he may not get to be out if he continues that behavior until I figure out how to get him to stop chewing my things.



RawFedDogs said:


> This gives me the impression you don't have a fenced yard. If there is any way possible to get one, I strongly recommend you do. This makes having dogs sooo much easier.


No fenced yard. I'd love to have one but again, I am not able nor allowed to erect a fence.



RawFedDogs said:


> All that is impressive.


Good to know I've done something right. 




RawFedDogs said:


> I too am more concerned with loose leash walking than heeling. Advanced things to teach would be things like open and close the door. Maybe retrieving a beer from the fridge :biggrin: . Bring the paper in. Close cabinet doors. Pick up and put away toys.


That would be pretty cool and I've never done that before...although, I'm not positive that if I asked them to go get me a beer, they might not sit there and eat their raw food out of the fridge and pop one open for themselves while they're at it.



RawFedDogs said:


> I had 2 Goldens several years ago and taught them a fun game calle "find the ball". I would put them both in a sit/stay in the den then walk somewhere in the house and hide a tennis ball. I would return and tell one to stay and the other "find the ball". The "finder" would zip through the house looking for the ball. Didn't matter where I put it, if they could reach it they could find it. It was fantastic watching them search a room. Sniffing all around the room down low, the move their head a couple of feet off the floor and repeating the search, then moving their head as high as it would go and repeat the search again. I didn't teach them how to search. They just figured it out by themselves. The only thing I taught was "go get the ball and bring it back to the den". I could hide the ball under the bed, under pillows or blankets on the bed, in dirty clothes hamper, under a pile of dirty clothes on the floor. They could find it anywhere in a matter of seconds. They would have made wonderful drug dogs. Enough rambling ... shut up and sit down, RFD. :biggrin:


Not rambling, very interesting. I actually do something like that with the cats except it would be treats and they didn't exactly go search on command so maybe I could do something like that, eventually, (when I know Shasta won't tear the blasted place apart while searching), because that could be challenging and rewarding for them.


----------



## RawFedDogs

SerenityFL said:


> You are saying don't say anything at all and when I let him out I just ignore him still?


Just be neutral, neither praising nor fussing. You don't have to ignore him.



> There must be a better way to keep him from chewing my things even if I don't catch him in the act. If I caught him in the act, of course it would be easier but how do I teach him not to chew my dang stuff in the first place?


Ahhhh ... I just noticed your problem. You are getting ready to learn very valuable training advice. It is almost impossible to teach an animal NOT to do something. They already know how to NOT do something. What you want to teach is the proper behavior. In this case, proper behavior is chewing only acceptable items. Time out is a great tool for teaching many things. What to chew isn't one of those things. Neither is trying to get him to chew something then fussing at him for doing so.

Sooooo ... to solve this problem, teach him the things its ok to chew. I think I would only give him 4 toys. It is much easier to teach, "these 4 things are ok to chew" than it is to teach, "these 50 things are ok to chew."

Give him something like a Nylabone. Something hard like that. Something soft like a furry squeek toy. Something in the middle like a proper size knotted rope. Also give him a kong to chew on while you are away. Anytime you catch him chewing something he isn't supposed to, immediately interrupt him using a normal tone of voice, "here don't chew that, chew this instead." Say this as you are putting one of his toys in his mouth. It won't take him long to learn, "when I need to chew, these are the things I can chew."

Soooo ... instead of teaching him what NOT to do, you are teaching what TO do. Praise when they chew the right thing.



> I have missed her in that few seconds but, again, this is changing because ever since the neighbors have decided to respect my fricken wishes about the dogs going to the bathroom first, when they are outside, she is getting the housetraining thing down fast. I did not teach her this but she does now walk to the door, I'll ask, "Do you have to go to the bathroom?" and she'll sit. I take her out, she goes to the bathroom....so yah, that is new and different and things are rapidly changing for the better in that area.


Cool, if you can grab a treat when you go out with her, and give it to her the instant she finishes, it will help you in this area. Don't forget praise. 



> Right, it is the owner's fault which is why I was asking in the first place because I didn't want to be one of those people. But, right now I have brought out a toy, they are in the living room, I can see them, and they are playing with said toy. Sakari snapped once, does some occasional growling and they did tug of war for a bit until Shasta gave up. (The pansy.) I'm trying very hard not to stress the growling if you all say that growling is not aggression and I don't have a problem. Not easy, but we'll see what happens.


You are doing the right thing now. Remember growling is part of puppy play. If they are growling during play they are having great fun. :smile:



> I do not have a fence and because of where I live, I cannot erect a fence. This is not my property.


It would really make life easier for you if you could figure out a way to have a fenced yard.



> As I explained to Natalie in a response to her, I typically focus on the issue at hand and don't explain every last detail that goes on the rest of the time. For example, earlier you stated that I should put them in the crate for 2 minutes as a time out. I had only said that when I see one of them chew, (well, Shasta, really), something they shouldn't, I put them in the crate. It didn't mean I don't do a 2-3 minute time out...I just talk about basics....but I'm trying hard to get very detailed.


Now you know instead of crating, put a proper chew item in their mouth and praise when they switch to it.



> (Sakari just growled, snapped and barked and growled again....you have no idea how hard it is for me not to step in because I do not want to be raising a princess dog.)


They can handle it. They are dogs and dogs handle stuff like that much better than we can.



> Where was I...when I said they were separate most of the time, I meant hours of the day thinking that during the day, they are in their own crates. I get home, they go to the bathroom, get trained, do some exercise, separate. They come back in, it's dinner time. I feed them in their crates and that is one thing I will not change.


That sound like a lot of "seperated" time and very little together time. Are their crates close to each other? Can they see each other in their crates?



> THEN, they get to come out. I put one in the living room, one by me. IF one wants to come over, they can but IF the dogs start flinging themselves all over the place out of control, one goes back to the living room and one stays by me. For a period of time.


I have bad news for you. They have been in the crate all day. They can't go outside and run around. They have a lot of pent up energy. THey have to release it somehow. That "somehow" is running around inside as fast as they possibly can. You will have that problem as long as they are crated all day. When they are no longer destructive and are house trained, they should be given run of the house all the time.



> And Shasta has indeed slammed in to the sliding glass door, heck, he used to slam himself against the door on purpose when I went outside with Sakari. Glass is not cheap, I would have a giant hole in my house, all the pets could get out and there's also that thing about glass cutting.


I understand all that but you gotta understand they have to have a way of buring all that pent up energy. 



> So, yes, they can play together but when they go berserk in the house, they get separated for a period of time.


Its not their fault. They have this energy and they have to get rid of it. Use your head and think of an acceptable way for them to do this.



> So if you were to count up the hours of the day, yes, they are separate most of the time.


Figure out a way to make it the other way around. It will be easier once they don't have to be crated when no one is home.



> This is also changing as I have started to allow them to be out next to me while sleeping....which, Sakari does very well but Shasta starts chewing things. So he may not get to be out if he continues that behavior until I figure out how to get him to stop chewing my things.


Now you have figured it out. :smile:



> No fenced yard. I'd love to have one but again, I am not able nor allowed to erect a fence.


Think about possibilities. Note: tying out on a rope or chain is not one of those possibilities.



> Not rambling, very interesting. I actually do something like that with the cats except it would be treats and they didn't exactly go search on command so maybe I could do something like that, eventually, (when I know Shasta won't tear the blasted place apart while searching), because that could be challenging and rewarding for them.


This is very easy to teach. Start with the ball in a very easy to find place. At first I would put the ball in the middle of the floor in hallway just out of their sight. Gradually progress to more and more difficult hiding places. One big hint. I discovered my dogs were "tracking" me directly to the ball. I would hide it and they would go directly to it. Sooo ... I started wandering thoughout the house and would stop somewhere along the way and hide it and continue wandering a few more minutes. This made it more difficult, but far from impossible, for them to find it. They had to search the whole house to find it and they always would. They loved this game.


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## SerenityFL

RawFedDogs said:


> Give him something like a Nylabone. Something hard like that. Something soft like a furry squeek toy. Something in the middle like a proper size knotted rope. Also give him a kong to chew on while you are away. Anytime you catch him chewing something he isn't supposed to, immediately interrupt him using a normal tone of voice, "here don't chew that, chew this instead." Say this as you are putting one of his toys in his mouth. It won't take him long to learn, "when I need to chew, these are the things I can chew."
> 
> Soooo ... instead of teaching him what NOT to do, you are teaching what TO do. Praise when they chew the right thing.


This is the main reason I ordered those antlers. The squeaky toys I have to be around when they play with them because Sakari likes to chew a hole through and pull all the stuffing and the squeaker, (plastic piece), out. I do not have a problem with her obliterating the toy. The problem is, Shasta then likes to eat the stuffing and the plastic piece. And, those toys last about an average of 10 to 15 minutes. 

They both have kongs, they both are no longer interested in their kongs, treats inside or not. I do not know why.

The rope toy is something I give to Shasta when we are going to bed. He loves to chew this rope toy, it's in shambles and he thinks it's great. But, unfortunately, this does not prevent him from chewing things like my bed and covers and remotes when I'm sleeping. 

I'm really, really hoping that these antlers will be the answer. They can't destroy them that fast, (according to the information on the site), they can chew and chew and chew and chew and not choke on tiny plastic pieces and I am hoping they'll find it far more interesting than anything I own that I don't want them to chew. I am hoping they are here by my next two days off. We will see what happens when they get here.




RawFedDogs said:


> Cool, if you can grab a treat when you go out with her, and give it to her the instant she finishes, it will help you in this area. Don't forget praise.


Yep, that's what I do. 



RawFedDogs said:


> You are doing the right thing now. Remember growling is part of puppy play. If they are growling during play they are having great fun. :smile:


This is totally rewiring because I was told that growling and snapping were signs of aggression. I did not interfere at all last night....they are both in one piece still and I'm hoping for the best in the future.




RawFedDogs said:


> It would really make life easier for you if you could figure out a way to have a fenced yard.


I know. I would love it....if there were a way, I would. Unfortunately, I cannot.




RawFedDogs said:


> That sound like a lot of "seperated" time and very little together time. Are their crates close to each other? Can they see each other in their crates?


At first, their crates were right next to each other. However, this did cause a lot of problems on Sakari's end. Not too long ago, I put one of the crates in the bedroom. 

None of this is forever, it was while we were establishing identities and "pack structure" (for me and them, not necessarily them) and how to be able to handle being away from each other. I actually think that I might be able to put those crates back in the same room again because they have learned this well. I did this because it was recommended by a trainer to do this and it did solve some of the issues they were having. 

Sometimes I think I forget to take a step back and evaluate how they have come along and to then take the next step.



RawFedDogs said:


> I have bad news for you. They have been in the crate all day. They can't go outside and run around. They have a lot of pent up energy. THey have to release it somehow. That "somehow" is running around inside as fast as they possibly can. You will have that problem as long as they are crated all day. When they are no longer destructive and are house trained, they should be given run of the house all the time.


I know. I know they need more exercise. I know. On my days off we are outside a lot, they play a lot, they run around like idiots for many hours at different times. (Meaning, I take them out to play for about an hour, they come back in, some time later, I take them out again for about an hour, they come back in, again I take them out later for an hour, they come back in), so on my days off, they get tons of exercise and training. It's just those other 5 days and I know, they need more. But just like anyone else with a job, not much I can do while I'm at work. However, they're going to start getting walks together and that will help. 




RawFedDogs said:


> I understand all that but you gotta understand they have to have a way of buring all that pent up energy.
> 
> Its not their fault. They have this energy and they have to get rid of it. Use your head and think of an acceptable way for them to do this.


This is why the very first thing I do when I get home is spend a considerable amount of time with them outside. Try to have them burn some of that off until they are lying on the ground, panting and tired. 




RawFedDogs said:


> Figure out a way to make it the other way around. It will be easier once they don't have to be crated when no one is home.


I look forward to this day.



RawFedDogs said:


> Think about possibilities. Note: tying out on a rope or chain is not one of those possibilities.


There is no way I would tie up a dog out here. It would be like live bait for some of the animals around here. 

I was thinking of maybe one of those invisible fences but I've heard they don't always work and if the dog did get out, they can't get back in...so I've not done that. I just don't know how else to get around that.




RawFedDogs said:


> This is very easy to teach. Start with the ball in a very easy to find place. At first I would put the ball in the middle of the floor in hallway just out of their sight. Gradually progress to more and more difficult hiding places. One big hint. I discovered my dogs were "tracking" me directly to the ball. I would hide it and they would go directly to it. Sooo ... I started wandering thoughout the house and would stop somewhere along the way and hide it and continue wandering a few more minutes. This made it more difficult, but far from impossible, for them to find it. They had to search the whole house to find it and they always would. They loved this game.


Cool! Maybe I can start that soon to keep their minds busy.

Thanks.


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## RawFedDogs

SerenityFL said:


> This is the main reason I ordered those antlers. The squeaky toys I have to be around when they play with them because Sakari likes to chew a hole through and pull all the stuffing and the squeaker, (plastic piece), out. I do not have a problem with her obliterating the toy. The problem is, Shasta then likes to eat the stuffing and the plastic piece. And, those toys last about an average of 10 to 15 minutes.


OK, great. Antlers would work in place of a Nylabone. Just remember you need to give them something hard (nylabone, antlers, etc), something soft (doesn't have to be a toy, an old washcloth or dish rag would do just fine), and something in between (a rope is good here). That way they have several different textures to take care of most any chew craving. 



> They both have kongs, they both are no longer interested in their kongs, treats inside or not. I do not know why.


Try different stuff inside. Kongs are mostly good for entertainment when you are gone. Try smearing peanutbutter or something like cheesewhiz inside.



> The rope toy is something I give to Shasta when we are going to bed. He loves to chew this rope toy, it's in shambles and he thinks it's great. But, unfortunately, this does not prevent him from chewing things like my bed and covers and remotes when I'm sleeping.


Its not going to prevent anything on it's own. You have to teach him. :smile: It would be one of the things you would put in his mouth when you catch him chewing something inappropriate. Remember you must catch him in the act and interrupt him for this to do any good but it will pretty quickly teach what is ok to chew.



> I'm really, really hoping that these antlers will be the answer. They can't destroy them that fast, (according to the information on the site), they can chew and chew and chew and chew and not choke on tiny plastic pieces and I am hoping they'll find it far more interesting than anything I own that I don't want them to chew. I am hoping they are here by my next two days off. We will see what happens when they get here.


They are not going to be THE answer, rather one of the answers. They won't cure anything on their own. You MUST teach the dogs by putting one in the dog's mouth whenever he has something inappropriate in his mouth and praise him when he starts chewing the appropriate thing.



> This is totally rewiring because I was told that growling and snapping were signs of aggression. I did not interfere at all last night....they are both in one piece still and I'm hoping for the best in the future.


Where a lot of trainers fall short is they want to have absolutes. These things ARE signs of aggression IN THE RIGHT CONTEXT, but not in this situation. In this situation they are no more than communication telling the other dog something. The other dog understands this much better than we do. Keep not intefering. 



> None of this is forever, it was while we were establishing identities and "pack structure" (for me and them, not necessarily them) and how to be able to handle being away from each other.


Forget pack structure, that doesn't exist. In the wild, wolf packs have an alpha male and female. In the old days it was thought the alpha male was the biggest toughest SOB in the pack and the alpha female was his mate. However later research has determined that the alpha male and female are the parents of all the others in the pack. So just like in our own pack, there is mama and daddy and the children. The children listen to mama and daddy just like we do our parents. Not because they are big and tough, its because they are older and wiser AND they are mama and daddy. So in your "pack", you are mama and they are the children. Each one will be more influential then the other in different situations.

How can they learn how to act if they are locked away alone? You have to allow them as much together time as possible.



> I actually think that I might be able to put those crates back in the same room again because they have learned this well. I did this because it was recommended by a trainer to do this and it did solve some of the issues they were having.


Actually, it didn't solve anything. It just kept the problems hidden because they weren't together. They can't misbehave if they are seperated. All this is just part of having puppies. They are improving because they are maturing.



> Sometimes I think I forget to take a step back and evaluate how they have come along and to then take the next step.


I don't think its so much as taking the next step as it is allowing them to take the present step.



> I know. I know they need more exercise. I know.


Well, since you understand this, you need to be more understanding and more patient when they get roudy in the house. Its just gonna happen. If you can't provide them enough exercise, you have to be more lenient inside. Locking them in the crate when they are full of energy creates more problems than it solves.



> This is why the very first thing I do when I get home is spend a considerable amount of time with them outside. Try to have them burn some of that off until they are lying on the ground, panting and tired.


Cool



> I look forward to this day.


It will come. It always does. :smile:



> I was thinking of maybe one of those invisible fences but I've heard they don't always work and if the dog did get out, they can't get back in...so I've not done that. I just don't know how else to get around that.


I am not a big believer in invisible fences but I have seen dogs amazingly adapted to them. They work best when the dog is properly trained to them but they do have their drawbacks.



> Cool! Maybe I can start that soon to keep their minds busy.


Exercising their minds is just as exausting to them as exercising their bodies. :smile:


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## cast71

> I was thinking of maybe one of those invisible fences but I've heard they don't always work and if the dog did get out, they can't get back in...so I've not done that. I just don't know how else to get around that.


Hi, I wanted to comment on the invisible fence. I think there not a good training tool at all. They basically only have 1 level and it stunts a dog into not going near that line. It's not really teaching them anything. It's just scaring them into not going near that line. They do cross over and than cannot return. Now the remote collars are a different story. They got a bad rap from people not using them right. Basically the instructions that come with it are wrong, plus people do not pay enough attention to use them right. There a little complicated to use correctly. Alot of hunters around here use them. They've discussed the way they've used them to me and I do not think using it in that way is cruel. They do come in a set of 2. 1 remote, 2 collars. I recommended trying to train your dogs without it first. Labs are easy to train. Once there trained, you'll be able to let them off leash. Just takes alot of patients. The ecollars are for stuborn dogs, that are difficult to train. Good luck and stick in there. You'll eventually see improvement.


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## SerenityFL

God! Now they are both growling and showing teeth and snapping at each other.

We are currently having a stand off over a stupid stuffed duck toy.

Serious snap at each other at the same time....tug of war...more barking, (with mouth full of toy), growling...snapping...

You are saying this is not a problem.

As I just wrote that, they went for each other, biting. [Edit, I'd like to clarify, this wasn't play biting, they rose up on their hind legs, attacking each other and biting.]

This is not a problem?


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## 3Musketeers

Nonsense! All you need is a chainsaw and a bit of creativity...










^I kid, that would probably be too much work anyways D:

Don't let them have the toy when they snap? When they are calm let them see the toy and perhaps give them treats if/while they stay calm, then if they start at it again, hide the toy again. 
Just throwing out ideas, to me it almost looks like Sakari is jealous and wanting everything for herself. And then Shasta decides not to put up with her attitude and snaps back?


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## DaneMama

Well, if they are really going after each other in the way you describe (not a playful but truly aggressive manner-intent to do harm) it may be that they aren't suitable to be together long term. Or it may be that they need to get a few squabbles under their belts to establish boundaries and hierarchies. 

Maybe contact a pet behaviorist that can come in and observe and see first hand what is going on.


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## SerenityFL

I did some looking around for more information about litter mates and it looks like I was told correctly when I was advised to keep them separate more often than not, while they are puppies.

This guy, who has been training for over 30 years, says this:

Dogs and Puppies

"Everything must now be done independently to allow for the Siblings to have any chance of becoming separate entities instead of the reduced sum of the whole.

* Walk them separately

* Feed them separately

* Train them separately

* Crate them separately

* Play with them separately

* Stimulate them separately

Literally everything you do should be separate. That includes Puppy and Training classes if possible, take them to a trainer that understands the inherent difficulties of raising two puppies together. Take them on separate nights if that is available, hopefully to the same trainer. They can play together but only at strict designated times and for a period of no more than 15 minutes each designated play time.

This regime will not be for life, as the pups will after a period of about 12 to 14 months have formed their own personalities and temperaments; at this age they will have become confident of their own individual abilities. Not as in most cases total inter-dependence on each other when they are raised, trained, and fed together.

Without the total reliance on their sibling for constant support they will grow and blossom into much rounder and less aggressive and fearful individuals. I cannot stress how important it is to separate the siblings until they are older. It will produce two individuals rather than an impaired two parts of the whole."

And this guy, who has trained for over 50 years, has this to say:

http://leerburg.com/pdf/raisingtwopuppies.pdf

So, it can be done but it has to be done differently than the typical way. I was told to keep them separated more often than not, separate their kennels, walks/exercise/training/eating etc all separate.

I was told to allow them to play together some times but not let them be together all the time until much later.

Yesterday, I allowed them to go out and run around together and when I brought them back in, they were inside playing together. The result? Dog fight.

So we are going back to separate until much later.


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## RawFedDogs

You can do what you want to but Leerburg is full of it with this information just as he is with so much of his other "advice". I've raised littermates and have had several clients over the years that have also. Yes, you definately need to do some things with each seperately. Raising two littermate puppies is not THAT much different than raising 2 nonr-related puppies. You just don't want them to get dependent on the other's presence all the time. Each should learn that there is a world seperate from his sibling.

What you are going to accomplish is to have 2 sperate families living in your house. You will have 2 humans and 1 dog in one family and the same two humans and the other dog in another family. You got 2 puppies because you want one family with 2 humans and 2 dogs. (I don't remember anything mentioned bout children.)

Your dogs can't learn to live together because they aren't together much of the time. I haven't seen them "fight" but if they are like 90% of my clients dogs who I was told were fighting, it was actually normal puppy play and normal dog interaction. If your dogs are fighting as much as you say they are and you haven't had to take one to the vet with injuries, they aren't fighting.

You say you are going back to seperate until much later ... the longer you wait to put them together the more difficult it will be to get them accustomed to being together. The older they get, the more set in their ways they will get.

Having said all that, occasionally you will find 2 dogs, related or not, that just can't get along. They never get along their whole lives. I don't think that is the case here because they seem to enjoy themselves most of the time. If they were dogs like these I just described they would would be an instant fight everytime they were in the same room or together outside.

Go back and re-read this whole thread again and then decide where you want to get your advice. You need to settle on one source. You will do nothing but get confused by jumping around getting advice from many sources. If you want to follow Ed Fawley's slick commercial Leerburg web site, then thats fine. The methods he suggests will keep your dogs from fighting, but at the expense of not having one close knit family. You can follow advice here from experienced dog people who have lived with littermates for years, or you can hire a professional trainer to come take a look at your dogs in action and help you with your problems. The trainer is the best thing for you to do if you can swing it.


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## 3Musketeers

Maybe they haven't had enough together time. Training them together is probably a big no-no, but otherwise they should learn to accept each other and being separate would probably make them grow more distant from each other.
I raised Patchie and Sparky together, while they weren't litter mates or even related, their age differs by only 3 weeks. Did I train them successfully together? Not very well, no, I am a retard and tried to train them together as well, but they accept each other perfectly and have never fought. They don't fight over toys or food or anything.
Also, there is aggression growling and play growling, snapping is a totally different story though.
Just opinions >_<, nothing else... don't mean to frustrate anyone.


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## SerenityFL

Thank you all for all of the advice.

I appreciate it.


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## rottensheperd

Our rule of thumb has always been that if tails are wagging, then it's alright. People bring their dogs over and are shocked at how rough the play gets, but tails always wag and everything is alright. We've never had to bust up a fight at least! Its how young dogs learn what is ok and not ok to do to older dogs, I think, like a toddler learning when they are bugging the older kids.


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## Sophie45

I agree there is too much concern over who is dominant/submissive/alpha, etc. Dogs communicate in their own language that they get, and often we don't. And alpha rolls are ridiculous-dogs know you aren't another dog and therefore aren't their true 'alpha'. Leader, yes-but a true 'alpha' would mean you are a canine.

My only major concern is that the dog's punishment for snapping at the other dog was to go in his crate, which is really not good. The crate is supposed to be a place the dog loves, is comfortable there, their own 'den', and has nothing but lovely feelings associated with it. By using the crate as a punishment means they will start to think of their crate negatively, which is really, truly counterproductive, and can possibly cause separation anxiety if you crate them when you leave the house, because they think they're being 'punished' by being put into the crate.

What I would do with Sophie when she misbehaved would be to march her into another room, say 'NOT NICE' in a very loud and firm voice, and shut the door loudly, so she knew she did something to make me upset. And then I would ignore her entirely for a while. I've heard the term '[temporary] social banishment' be used for it, because dogs are such social creatures, they don't like to be isolated and ignored from those they love because they did something wrong. Believe me-it worked!


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