# Stomach acid pH in raw fed dogs



## JayJayisme

Does anyone know of any scientific studies that show any difference in the stomach acid pH levels between kibble/commercially fed dogs and raw (RMB) fed dogs? Or for that matter, between typical domestic dogs and wolves?

I keep reading over and over that dogs have a pH level in their stomach of between 1~2. Then I recalled a post from RFD stating that during the initial stages of moving a dog from kibble to raw, their "...their stomach juices become more acid. Kibble causes the juices to become less acid because of the carbs in it."

Do we know that as fact or is this speculation? If fact, what are the actual numbers? How much does it change between a kibble fed domestic dog, a raw fed domestic dog, and a wild dog (wolf)?

There are two reasons I am curious about this.

One, a documented change in pH levels when transitioning a dog from kibble to raw would be serious ammo in the debate to support raw feeding. In other words, a dog eating a natural, species-appropriate diet would achieve a "natural" pH level in their digestive tract whereas a dog eating kibble has an "unnatural" pH level.

Two, in my own dogs I noticed that since they've been on raw for awhile, they haven't contracted Giardia or Coccidia even though on a recent vacation, they drank from wild streams and lakes, which may have been a source of Giardia in the past with them. Frankly, I expected to come home from this last trip and drive straight to the vet to have them tested just like I had to do the last time we did this trip earlier this year (when they were on kibble). But they show no signs of parasitic contamination this time even though I'm sure they drank from some impure water sources at least once or twice on this most recent trip, just like the last time.

I'm theorizing that their current natural pH level is high enough to kill a lot of the parasites that they couldn't fend off when they were on kibble. Possible? Comments?


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## SuZQuzie

Sorry if this is less than coherent. It's late and I should be studying for OChem. Eh, I guess I could use a study break. :tongue:



JayJayisme said:


> Does anyone know of any scientific studies that show any difference in the stomach acid pH levels between kibble/commercially fed dogs and raw (RMB) fed dogs? Or for that matter, between typical domestic dogs and wolves?


None that I know of. Studies on dogs are tough. Dogs are expensive and people like dogs. In order to due the study that you are asking for one would either have to (a) kill the dog to stick a pH meter into their gut or (b) perform a gastrulation on the dogs which is a process where one literally inserts an outlet into the dog's side that extends to the stomach which would allow one to measure the pH of the stomach contents _in vivo._ Problems with gastrulation are that it is expensive, the dog would be unable to live a fulfilling life after the study, and I'm not sure if it has ever even been performed before, let alone in a full blown study.



> I keep reading over and over that dogs have a pH level in their stomach of between 1~2. Then I recalled a post from RFD stating that during the initial stages of moving a dog from kibble to raw, their "...their stomach juices become more acid. Kibble causes the juices to become less acid because of the carbs in it."
> 
> Do we know that as fact or is this speculation? If fact, what are the actual numbers? How much does it change between a kibble fed domestic dog, a raw fed domestic dog, and a wild dog (wolf)?


Speculation. :smile: While I don't know of every single study ever done, the ones I do know of don't cover that sort of variation in diet. It would also be difficult to even determine a control for that sort of thing. It is interesting, actually, because more recent studies in the past ten years have been showing that the stomach pH of a dog is actually higher than the past accepted numbers! How controversial! :biggrin:

More likely than not, it is the dog's microbes in the intestines that have to get used to the new diet instead of the stomach acid. Save for serious health complications, I can't imagine anything that could physically increase the number of parietal cells in the stomach after maturation. Parietal cells are the cells that release the hydrochloric acid into the stomach for chemical digestion and they are generally thought to have a fixed amount of output of HCl per cell. _Maybe_ an increase in production of pepsinogen, the precursor to pepsin which is the enzyme responsible for protein digestion. I don't believe that is fixed.

With the microbes, which cattle, pigs, horses, humans, and probably many species, it has been shown that diet should change slowly to accommodate the microbes. Let's use humans as an example. Generally, humans have a diet low in insoluble fiber and have the microbe population in their gut used to a diet high in soluble fiber and low in insoluble fiber. If the person were to suddenly switch to a high insoluble fiber diet, they would get an upset "stomach" (but it's actually their intestines) and probably a bit gassy. You can try that out for yourself if you feel so inclined: just load up on celery!



> There are two reasons I am curious about this.
> 
> One, a documented change in pH levels when transitioning a dog from kibble to raw would be serious ammo in the debate to support raw feeding. In other words, a dog eating a natural, species-appropriate diet would achieve a "natural" pH level in their digestive tract whereas a dog eating kibble has an "unnatural" pH level.
> 
> Two, in my own dogs I noticed that since they've been on raw for awhile, they haven't contracted Giardia or Coccidia even though on a recent vacation, they drank from wild streams and lakes, which may have been a source of Giardia in the past with them. Frankly, I expected to come home from this last trip and drive straight to the vet to have them tested just like I had to do the last time we did this trip earlier this year (when they were on kibble). But they show no signs of parasitic contamination this time even though I'm sure they drank from some impure water sources at least once or twice on this most recent trip, just like the last time.


Eh, luck. I went on a camping trip with my pooch a while ago. I DIDN'T drink the stream water and got giardia because my friend dropped the "clean side" of the pump into the stream and didn't tell me. Fabulous! My dog only drank out of the stream (I offered her other water but she declined) and didn't. She was on Wellness at the time.



> I'm theorizing that their current natural pH level is high enough to kill a lot of the parasites that they couldn't fend off when they were on kibble. Possible? Comments?


Maybe. I looked up pH tolerance on PubMed to see if there was anything out and I didn't have much luck. I did find out that their do require a more neutral environment to undergo cystation, but that would happen whether or not a dog is raw fed or not since there will always be the transition for the acidic stomach to the alkaline intestine.

Very good thinking though. :smile:


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## RawFedDogs

JayJayisme said:


> I keep reading over and over that dogs have a pH level in their stomach of between 1~2. Then I recalled a post from RFD stating that during the initial stages of moving a dog from kibble to raw, their "...their stomach juices become more acid. Kibble causes the juices to become less acid because of the carbs in it."


As I remember, several years ago in a discussion with Tom Lonsdale, he explained that when humans eat a meal high in carbs, the stomach acidity drops and when humans eat a meal high in meat content, the stomach becomes more acid. This is naturally because it takes a stronger acid to digest meat.

From that discussion, I inferred that dogs stomachs operated the same way and since kibble is a high carb food, stomach juices are not so acidic. Raw fed dogs eat very little if any carbs therefore their stomach juices are more acidic. In other words, the great percentages of meat injested creates a more acidic stomach.



> Do we know that as fact or is this speculation?


A little of both.



> If fact, what are the actual numbers?


Don't know, don't care. I have some links somewhere that will tell you all that and they don't all agree. They are just numbers. I don't pay a whole lot of attention to numbers. Neither us nor our dogs eat numbers. We eat food.



> How much does it change between a kibble fed domestic dog, a raw fed domestic dog, and a wild dog (wolf)?


Don't know that either. The raw fed domestic and wild dog would have to be very close and they both should be more acidic than a kibble fed dog. Remember, all this happens only when there is food in the dog's stomach. The content of the food will determine the acidity.



> One, a documented change in pH levels when transitioning a dog from kibble to raw would be serious ammo in the debate to support raw feeding. In other words, a dog eating a natural, species-appropriate diet would achieve a "natural" pH level in their digestive tract whereas a dog eating kibble has an "unnatural" pH level.


Yes but remember that digestive juices are only secreted into the stomach only when the dog (or human or other animal) is eating. Content of the food will determine exactly what is secreted into the stomach. 



> Two, in my own dogs I noticed that since they've been on raw for awhile, they haven't contracted Giardia or Coccidia even though on a recent vacation, they drank from wild streams and lakes, which may have been a source of Giardia in the past with them. Frankly, I expected to come home from this last trip and drive straight to the vet to have them tested just like I had to do the last time we did this trip earlier this year (when they were on kibble). But they show no signs of parasitic contamination this time even though I'm sure they drank from some impure water sources at least once or twice on this most recent trip, just like the last time.


My dogs drink from a stagnant swamp regularly with no ill effects. I attribute that to the stronger immune system that has been fed a natural diet. I don't THINK stomach juices are secreted when drinking. I might be wrong about that.



> I'm theorizing that their current natural pH level is high enough to kill a lot of the parasites that they couldn't fend off when they were on kibble. Possible? Comments?


Possible but also a stronger immune system is bound to play a role. My dogs are outside a lot and they eat dirt, drink stagnant water, eat bugs and worms and other wild critters like squirrels and rabbits and vohls and chipmonks. Some of those wild critters MUST have parasites of some form but my dogs never show any sign of any problem with any of it nor do my cats. I know the cats eat wild critters almost every day. Sometimes (ok, often) they bring them inside to eat them. :smile:


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## SuZQuzie

Just a quick correction on when gastric secretions occur. In most animals, including dogs, gastric secretions begin when the animal thinks it is going to eat. Ever notice how you feel hungrier right when you see/smell food? :wink:

This is not true in equids.

I was also thinking about it with the (supposed) pH drop with when consuming meat. Meat has a lower pH than vegetable foods, so it may be that it is more congruent with the existing pH and limiting the increase in pH more so than with vegetable foods, which are more neutral. 

HCl also has little direct effect on the catabolic activities in protein digestion other than the fact that it triggers the conversion of pepsinogen to pepsin. Pepsin is only activated in an acidic environment and is what is responsible for breaking huge proteins into amino acids to be absorbed in the duodenum, or the first portion of the small intestine. Pepsin is activated in its proper active at any pH below 3. Above 3 till about 4.5, pepsin is still present in its active form, but it is also present in other active species that are less able to break down proteins.


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## RawFedDogs

SuZQuzie said:


> Just a quick correction on when gastric secretions occur. In most animals, including dogs, gastric secretions begin when the animal thinks it is going to eat. Ever notice how you feel hungrier right when you see/smell food? :wink:


Yes, that is a more accurate statement. As Dr. Lonsdale said, when the dog starts chewing, juices start flowing. The act of chewing causes the stomach to create the juices. He also explained, if I remember correctly, that when dogs who are gulpers eat kibble or even ground meat, the food often reaches the stomach before the digestive juices do. That, in itself, can cause digestive problems and can cause a dog to vomit just after eating. That is a good reason to feed RMB's. To allow the stomach to "be ready" for the food when it arrives.


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## SuZQuzie

RawFedDogs said:


> Yes, that is a more accurate statement. As Dr. Lonsdale said, when the dog starts chewing, juices start flowing. The act of chewing causes the stomach to create the juices. He also explained, if I remember correctly, that when dogs who are gulpers eat kibble or even ground meat, the food often reaches the stomach before the digestive juices do. That, in itself, can cause digestive problems and can cause a dog to vomit just after eating. That is a good reason to feed RMB's. To allow the stomach to "be ready" for the food when it arrives.


Hmm... from my understanding, they just have to LOOK at food to have the gastric juices flowing. Same with us. In know in horses, some gastric secretions are stimulated by just applying force on the molars. But they won't even start salivating till then. This is seen when floating a horse's teeth where one takes a rasp to the molars for dental work, the horse will start salivating. Weird, huh? 

I suppose if that is true, I'm in the clear since the pups get chicken jerky on top of their kibble which, OF COURSE, they go for first. :tongue:


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## SuZQuzie

BTW, I will look into that later and see what I can dig up in my mountains of textbooks and journals. This should be fun!


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## CavePaws

Bump!

This was an interesting read. Did a google search and came across this page, then read the thread. Very interesting. Anyone have any thoughts?

Thought I would bump this up for discussion since I am about to hit the back button to read more on what it was that I was intending to search...then got lost in the thread.


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## Chocx2

The thread didn't come through cavepaws


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## eternalstudent

Dogs have the same stomach acid we do it is just in a different concentration than us humans.

Bill was correct. Depending on the food eaten depends on the acid secreted.

We use acid to break down amino-acids as despite their name they basic not acidic. We use enzymes to break down carbohydrates.

When we feed a dog kibble they are given a diet rich in carbohydrate and processed protein. Neither of these things require a lot of acid to digest. 

When we feed raw meat which has long chain and branched chain amino acids then the dog needs way more acid to break them down (note this is not a catalytic reaction the H+ ions are stuck onto the amino acids and taken through the body).

We also feed bone, which is high in calcium carbonate. We will know carbonates from ant-acid tablets we all take the morning after (i'm sure it's not just me). again this means the dog has to produce more acid to be able to digest the bone. (see the pick of the bone from snorkels). 

There is a fine balancing act between the stomach and the intestine. The stomach only opens when the acid levels are correct in the intestine and the stomach, and the stomach contents are sufficiently glob like. This is why it is unusual for a dog to pass a bone right through the intestine. It does happen at the start because the stomach acids are used up and the stomach opens to the intestine as the acid drive is the main control.

Hope that all makes sense . Like the first reply I am supposed to be revising Biochem / psychiatry and neurology....... But dogs are so much more interesting :-O


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## bully4life

Maybe a sticky with this ???


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## whiteleo

I miss Bill.....................


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## Herzo

whiteleo said:


> I miss Bill.....................


Me too, I always liked his I don't worry about that attitude.


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## eternalstudent

whiteleo said:


> I miss Bill.....................


I think we all do.

To be honest this post is not worthy of a sticky. The original discussion does nor really add a lot and there are irrelevancies when they start discussion pepsin and pepsiogen. Likewise to the debate about secretions and eating is also not fully there, or the simple test to find out the concentrations. I would also say the concentration pH debate is also incorrect, pH is not a marker of concentration it is a marker of dissociation.

I know it has been viewed by 1600 or so people, but if people want to search for stomach acids as Kelly did then they will come across it.

Obviously just my 2 pence worth .


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## xellil

whiteleo said:


> I miss Bill.....................


Me too. He had a great way of making things simple. Sometimes I think we overthink this raw stuff - he never did.


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## bridget246

What happened to Bill? I read a lot older threads about Bill. Was just about to make another thread asking where he went to.


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## whiteleo

Bill decided it was time to move on, I guess at some point we all do..He use to moderate this forum, I learned to raw feed from him..


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## wolfsnaps88

After a while, its all the same questions and answers. I learned back in 2007 (from Bill and some others on a different forum before this one was made) about raw feeding. Then I did it part time and read and asked enough questions and then it became repetitive. Plus, that forum had some snippy, snotty, stuck up people in it. So I kind of moseyed along. Then I started thinking about full time raw and found this forum. I like a lot of the people here right now so I don't plan to leave right away. But, you long timers, you see the same questions over and over right? I don't mind answering them over and over. I think Bill got tired of it.


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## whiteleo

wolfsnaps88 said:


> After a while, its all the same questions and answers. I learned back in 2007 (from Bill and some others on a different forum before this one was made) about raw feeding. Then I did it part time and read and asked enough questions and then it became repetitive. Plus, that forum had some snippy, snotty, stuck up people in it. So I kind of moseyed along. Then I started thinking about full time raw and found this forum. I like a lot of the people here right now so I don't plan to leave right away. But, you long timers, you see the same questions over and over right? I don't mind answering them over and over. I think Bill got tired of it.


I just let someone else answer the questions when they have been asked the week before by someone else...LOL We do have a search feature on this forum but I don't think many people know about it.....


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## Herzo

whiteleo said:


> I just let someone else answer the questions when they have been asked the week before by someone else...LOL We do have a search feature on this forum but I don't think many people know about it.....


I still have trouble using it so when I first came on here no way. Now I am going to go there right now and look something up hope I find it.


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## liquid

I know a lot of people find the search function on this forum to be a little unorganized or difficult to find threads, so I wanted to suggest to do what I do: use google. 
When you go into google.com, in the search bar type or copy and paste: *"site:dogfoodchat.com/forum/raw-feeding SEARCH"* without the quotation marks. Substitute the word "SEARCH" for whatever you are looking for, and search away!

This allows you to search material that is on DFC only, and in the raw feeding section. Its quite helpful and I find it to be more detailed than the forum search function. :thumb:


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## Dr Conor Brady

JayJayisme said:


> Does anyone know of any scientific studies that show any difference in the stomach acid pH levels between kibble/commercially fed dogs and raw (RMB) fed dogs? Or for that matter, between typical domestic dogs and wolves?


Hi JayJay,

Copied this from my book, hope it helps.

*Stomach pH
*".......The dog has a simple, very acidic gut, typical of a carnivore, designed to process large quantities of meat and bone. At it's most acidic (during digestion) the dog's gut can reach below pH1.0, equivalent to car battery acid, a level it can remain at for 5 hours (Itoh et al. 1980, Sagawa et al., 2009). Youngberg et al. (1985) found the average gastric pH of dogs ranges from pH1.5 ranging to pH2.1 a couple of hours after consuming a meal, when gastric juices would be in full flow. At this sort of acidity a meat and bone is rapidly broken down, often reduced to chyme within an hour (Lonsdale, 2001). Furthermore this acidic environment is inhospitable to all but the most specialized of microbiology, protecting healthy scavenging dogs from common meat-borne pathogens such as Salmonella and E. coli. Great quantities of mucous protect the dog from doing itself damage. Post-digestion the stomach will abruptly change to neutral, presumably to neutralise the corrosive acid before it hits the duodenum and intestines that are less equipped to withstand the corrosive power of a pH1 acid broth. Data on dry-fed dogs cite the pH of food bolus to rise to a near neutral pH6-7 in the duodenum (Itoh et al., 1980; Sagawa et al., 2009) but as high as pH 8.3 by the time it reaches the colon. There is little data available for dogs fed a fresh meat meal. It is well established omnivores have less acidic digestive juices than carnivores due to their larger inclusion of alkaline-forming legumes and vegetables. Carnivores on the other hand spend their time eating eating protein and fat and the more protein in a meal, the lower the stomach pH (Carpentier et al. 1988). More on this below in “Vomiting”......"


Absolutely the lower stomach acids of carnivores is enough to kill the hefty majority of ingested nasties. Hence even dry fed dogs can dig up a 3mth old bone and pick away to no great harm. Pigs ears in pet shops are absolutely riddled with salmonella, as are many dry foods, both of which have contaminated humans and caused illness. This has never been documented to occur from raw food. Many reasons for this but don't want to go off topic. Only the very sickest of dogs contract the likes of Salmonella and E. coli. It actually suggests something else entirely is going on. 

Re Guardia, it's likely your raw fed dogs, now enjoying a diet void of the top allergens (cereal gluten, processed chicken and beef, and various food chemicals) now find themselves with fortified immune systems. With less to do these systems are better able to fend the dog from paltry illness like Giardia, staph infections, flea bites and all the other every day bugs, which healthy raw fed dogs rarely suffer. Refs available on request.


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## Elisabeth

".......The dog has a simple, very acidic gut, typical of a carnivore, designed to process large quantities of meat and bone. At it's most acidic (during digestion) the dog's gut can reach below pH1.0, equivalent to car battery acid, a level it can remain at for 5 hours (Itoh et al. 1980, Sagawa et al., 2009). Youngberg et al. (1985) found the average gastric pH of dogs ranges from pH1.5 ranging to pH2.1 a couple of hours after consuming a meal, when gastric juices would be in full flow. At this sort of acidity a meat and bone is rapidly broken down, often reduced to chyme within an hour (Lonsdale, 2001). Furthermore this acidic environment is inhospitable to all but the most specialized of microbiology, protecting healthy scavenging dogs from common meat-borne pathogens such as Salmonella and E. coli. Great quantities of mucous protect the dog from doing itself damage. Post-digestion the stomach will abruptly change to neutral, presumably to neutralise the corrosive acid before it hits the duodenum and intestines that are less equipped to withstand the corrosive power of a pH1 acid broth. Data on dry-fed dogs cite the pH of food bolus to rise to a near neutral pH6-7 in the duodenum (Itoh et al., 1980; Sagawa et al., 2009) but as high as pH 8.3 by the time it reaches the colon. There is little data available for dogs fed a fresh meat meal. It is well established omnivores have less acidic digestive juices than carnivores due to their larger inclusion of alkaline-forming legumes and vegetables. Carnivores on the other hand spend their time eating eating protein and fat and the more protein in a meal, the lower the stomach pH (Carpentier et al. 1988). More on this below in “Vomiting”......" 

now i want to know about vomiting 


Absolutely the lower stomach acids of carnivores is enough to kill the hefty majority of ingested nasties. Hence even dry fed dogs can dig up a 3mth old bone and pick away to no great harm. Pigs ears in pet shops are absolutely riddled with salmonella, as are many dry foods, both of which have contaminated humans and caused illness. This has never been documented to occur from raw food. Many reasons for this but don't want to go off topic. Only the very sickest of dogs contract the likes of Salmonella and E. coli. It actually suggests something else entirely is going on. 

Re Guardia, it's likely your raw fed dogs, now enjoying a diet void of the top allergens (cereal gluten, processed chicken and beef, and various food chemicals) now find themselves with fortified immune systems. With less to do these systems are better able to fend the dog from paltry illness like Giardia, staph infections, flea bites and all the other every day bugs, which healthy raw fed dogs rarely suffer. Refs available on request.[/QUOTE]

thank you! very interesting!


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## Dr Conor Brady

*Vomiting explained in dogs switched from dry to raw*

Hi Elisabeth,

Vomiting is nothing to worry about when you're swopping over but it's another very confused topic. Lots of people advocate that you can't feed raw and dry together, which is half true, you can but initially it can cause problems. I'm not a big fan of long posts, but as long as people are half interested, here's what's going on with vomiting (maybe grab a cup of tea and a biscuit.....)

*Vomiting*
Many people experience vomiting problems when they try to get their dog to eat a new food it isn't used to. First off repeated vomiting is not normal. Any more than one episode in a day and your dog needs to see the vet in case of an obstruction (or perhaps something more sinister such as pancreatitis). 

There are a number of reasons for the odd vomit, such as with the introduction of a new food. I used to believe (as I know many did) that the dog getting sick in this instance was a result of the “nutrient explosion”, a shock to the system so to speak. Much like the man who hasn't had a drink in days, but that's not quite right.

Many of us have seen a dry fed dog vomiting after a nice bit of raw steak. The following theory is relatively unsupported by the literature but constructed on knowledge of the human digestive response. 

Take the dog that is fed 500g of dry, cereal based nuts every evening at 5pm. If your dog has been fed the same dry diet for a more than a few weeks, a number of biological changes are expected to occur in the dogs digestive physiology. Much like Pavlov's dogs, where by Pavlov found that by ringing a bell shortly before dinner time he could in fact condition his beagles to salivate at the sound of the bell well before the food came out – not ground breaking work today perhaps but at the time the implications for behaviourists was profound - a small amount of “digestive-conditioning” is thought to occur in your dog. To reiterate this only becomes apparent when you want to shift the dog from dry crackers to a more healthy, raw meat based diet. The enzymes required to digest a cereal based diet function best at higher pH levels. Crucially, this is a result of the _protein_ _content_ of the meal and not the cereal content per se, as most are led to believe. While it is true omnivores have a slightly higher stomach pH than carnivores but this is indicative of the number of alkaline-forming vegetables and legumes we consume, not the amount of cereal (which, like meat, is actually acid-_forming_). Thus the human stomach has a pH averaging 1.35-3.5 (Marieb and Hoehn, 2010), slightly higher than that of the dog. The fact remains cereal and meat are both acid-forming foods. Grayzel and Miller (1927) compared dogs on high cereal to high fresh meat diets and found,

“The normal diet showed acidity throughout the tract, with considerable constancy at each level. High fat, protein, or carbohydrate 
variations caused no notable changes, the results falling within the normal ranges”

Vitally this a short-term study and says little of the long-term adaption of a carnivores stomach to a meat / cereal diet. Modern studies note how the canine gastric pH response will vary with the type of meal ingested, a meat based diet causing a noticeable drop in pH (Banta et al. 1979; Carrière et al. 1993). This is because gastric secretion is also influenced by the _amount_ of protein in as well as the volume of the meal itself (Carpentier et al. 1988).

In this way when a dog has been "programmed" to expect their cereal based and extremely (unnaturally) high carbohydrate meal at 6pm, the stomach will begin to prepare, with stomach acidity adjusting upwards (more alkaline) to the required pH. The pancreas and liver in turn will produce the enzymes necessary for the job, each operating best at particular pH levels, depending on the animals requirement. 

If you now chose to include a lump of raw meat in the dogs food, it is theorised that the dog will neither have the appropriate enzymes nor the correct pH to digest the meat lump in the meal. The animal will find itself in the unfortunate position of having the _wrong_ digestive machinery to hand. Shortly after their first encounter with fresh meat (an hour or so depending on stomach emptying times) the dog is likely to vomit the partially digested meal up, thereby eliminating the problem lump before it can cause a blockage down stream (and then probably it a another go!). 

Naturally enough at this point the owner thinks their dog has a problem with the raw food and steers clear of it in the future. Add to this the lesser understood issue of the dog's body simply rejecting a novel protein via messages from the gut (more accurately the Gut Associated Lymphoid Tissue, or GALT). I cannot hold shell fish down. It doesn't break me out in stereo-typical lumps but both times I tried it both times it came up. I later found out from my food vega-allergy test mentioned at the start of the book that shell fish and my body do not get on. I've known that for years. I do not seem to be allergic to it per se but she highly recommended I steer clear. Interesting.

At any rate this is why you are advised to change your dog over to a fresh, raw food diet very, very slowly. 5% mince one day, 10% the next etc. This method works, reducing vomiting episodes to almost zero, which lends strong support to the above hypothesis. Start off with something very easy to digest, tuna fish for example. Pour the water / brine over their current food the first day, then introduce a teaspoon of the meat the next, table spoon the next, slowly building the dog's system up to a more natural and robust state. Tinned tuna is a great starter for another reason. With dry fed dogs expected to have a stomach pH slightly more alkaline, nastier raw meat microbes could be expected to survive for passage into the intestines. These can result in diarrhoea or worse. So work on reducing the dogs stomach pH for a few days before the main event. Remember that dogs who have not experienced fresh meat protein early in their youth through amniotic fluid, mothers milk or during the imprinting period (first 12 weeks of life) will be naturally suspicious of new material later on, even meat! You need to work around this slowly with tasty morsels and hungry dogs!

*Remedy*: In the case of vomiting, stop putting food in. You need allow time for whatever is causing the problem to come up. Leave down fresh water containing half a teaspoon of sugar and pinch of salts for electrolytes while you starve the dog for one meal (older dogs for two, there are many benefits to this). Apparently Hippocrates (460BC - c370BC), the father of modern medicine, and the reason doctors must take the Hippocratic Oath, thought so too. Cited in Adams (1939), Hippocrates once wrote:

“…if a patient fast for the first two or three days and take food of a heavy nature on the fourth and fifth, he will be much injured.”


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## tadbubs

*Dr. you are incredible*



Dr Conor Brady said:


> Hi Elisabeth,
> 
> Vomiting is nothing to worry about when you're swopping over but it's another very confused topic. Lots of people advocate that you can't feed raw and dry together, which is half true, you can but initially it can cause problems. I'm not a big fan of long posts, but as long as people are half interested, here's what's going on with vomiting (maybe grab a cup of tea and a biscuit.....)
> 
> *Vomiting*
> Many people experience vomiting problems when they try to get their dog to eat a new food it isn't used to. First off repeated vomiting is not normal. Any more than one episode in a day and your dog needs to see the vet in case of an obstruction (or perhaps something more sinister such as pancreatitis).
> 
> There are a number of reasons for the odd vomit, such as with the introduction of a new food. I used to believe (as I know many did) that the dog getting sick in this instance was a result of the “nutrient explosion”, a shock to the system so to speak. Much like the man who hasn't had a drink in days, but that's not quite right.
> 
> Many of us have seen a dry fed dog vomiting after a nice bit of raw steak. The following theory is relatively unsupported by the literature but constructed on knowledge of the human digestive response.
> 
> Take the dog that is fed 500g of dry, cereal based nuts every evening at 5pm. If your dog has been fed the same dry diet for a more than a few weeks, a number of biological changes are expected to occur in the dogs digestive physiology. Much like Pavlov's dogs, where by Pavlov found that by ringing a bell shortly before dinner time he could in fact condition his beagles to salivate at the sound of the bell well before the food came out – not ground breaking work today perhaps but at the time the implications for behaviourists was profound - a small amount of “digestive-conditioning” is thought to occur in your dog. To reiterate this only becomes apparent when you want to shift the dog from dry crackers to a more healthy, raw meat based diet. The enzymes required to digest a cereal based diet function best at higher pH levels. Crucially, this is a result of the _protein_ _content_ of the meal and not the cereal content per se, as most are led to believe. While it is true omnivores have a slightly higher stomach pH than carnivores but this is indicative of the number of alkaline-forming vegetables and legumes we consume, not the amount of cereal (which, like meat, is actually acid-_forming_). Thus the human stomach has a pH averaging 1.35-3.5 (Marieb and Hoehn, 2010), slightly higher than that of the dog. The fact remains cereal and meat are both acid-forming foods. Grayzel and Miller (1927) compared dogs on high cereal to high fresh meat diets and found,
> 
> “The normal diet showed acidity throughout the tract, with considerable constancy at each level. High fat, protein, or carbohydrate
> variations caused no notable changes, the results falling within the normal ranges”
> 
> Vitally this a short-term study and says little of the long-term adaption of a carnivores stomach to a meat / cereal diet. Modern studies note how the canine gastric pH response will vary with the type of meal ingested, a meat based diet causing a noticeable drop in pH (Banta et al. 1979; Carrière et al. 1993). This is because gastric secretion is also influenced by the _amount_ of protein in as well as the volume of the meal itself (Carpentier et al. 1988).
> 
> In this way when a dog has been "programmed" to expect their cereal based and extremely (unnaturally) high carbohydrate meal at 6pm, the stomach will begin to prepare, with stomach acidity adjusting upwards (more alkaline) to the required pH. The pancreas and liver in turn will produce the enzymes necessary for the job, each operating best at particular pH levels, depending on the animals requirement.
> 
> If you now chose to include a lump of raw meat in the dogs food, it is theorised that the dog will neither have the appropriate enzymes nor the correct pH to digest the meat lump in the meal. The animal will find itself in the unfortunate position of having the _wrong_ digestive machinery to hand. Shortly after their first encounter with fresh meat (an hour or so depending on stomach emptying times) the dog is likely to vomit the partially digested meal up, thereby eliminating the problem lump before it can cause a blockage down stream (and then probably it a another go!).
> 
> Naturally enough at this point the owner thinks their dog has a problem with the raw food and steers clear of it in the future. Add to this the lesser understood issue of the dog's body simply rejecting a novel protein via messages from the gut (more accurately the Gut Associated Lymphoid Tissue, or GALT). I cannot hold shell fish down. It doesn't break me out in stereo-typical lumps but both times I tried it both times it came up. I later found out from my food vega-allergy test mentioned at the start of the book that shell fish and my body do not get on. I've known that for years. I do not seem to be allergic to it per se but she highly recommended I steer clear. Interesting.
> 
> At any rate this is why you are advised to change your dog over to a fresh, raw food diet very, very slowly. 5% mince one day, 10% the next etc. This method works, reducing vomiting episodes to almost zero, which lends strong support to the above hypothesis. Start off with something very easy to digest, tuna fish for example. Pour the water / brine over their current food the first day, then introduce a teaspoon of the meat the next, table spoon the next, slowly building the dog's system up to a more natural and robust state. Tinned tuna is a great starter for another reason. With dry fed dogs expected to have a stomach pH slightly more alkaline, nastier raw meat microbes could be expected to survive for passage into the intestines. These can result in diarrhoea or worse. So work on reducing the dogs stomach pH for a few days before the main event. Remember that dogs who have not experienced fresh meat protein early in their youth through amniotic fluid, mothers milk or during the imprinting period (first 12 weeks of life) will be naturally suspicious of new material later on, even meat! You need to work around this slowly with tasty morsels and hungry dogs!
> 
> *Remedy*: In the case of vomiting, stop putting food in. You need allow time for whatever is causing the problem to come up. Leave down fresh water containing half a teaspoon of sugar and pinch of salts for electrolytes while you starve the dog for one meal (older dogs for two, there are many benefits to this). Apparently Hippocrates (460BC - c370BC), the father of modern medicine, and the reason doctors must take the Hippocratic Oath, thought so too. Cited in Adams (1939), Hippocrates once wrote:
> 
> “…if a patient fast for the first two or three days and take food of a heavy nature on the fourth and fifth, he will be much injured.”



Dr. it just so happens I'm going through all that you warned of and I had NO CLUE...until I read your research.

Brilliant, brilliant, brilliant.

You see, I'm a nut about all this as I'm also a fitness pro for bipeds.

Your material had me riveted.


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## FBarnes

Interesting. Although with the dogs I have switched to raw, they were on kibble one day and raw the next. No transition period. None had vomiting. The only time they threw up was when they were anticipating breakfast and threw up some bile, which I have fixed by giving them a later meal the evening before. None had diarrhea except the one I got cocky about and gave rich meat too soon. I'm not sure there are any fixed rules that work (or don't) 100% of the time for raw fed dogs.


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