# Ugh Help me understand...



## shellbeme (Dec 8, 2010)

This 'quality dogfood' thing. Ok so there is tons of information on the internet-websites-that rank dog foods. At one point we were going to get a spoo, but we actually have a maltese puppy totaly in love with him by the way! And a spoo is still possible later down the road but back to food...

We are feeding Rocky, Fromm gold for puppies. Before we got him I read as much as I could find about foods and decided that was the one I wanted to go with. I'm kind of intimidated by the richness of some of the others-acana and orijen and honestly feel like those should be fed to more high performance type dogs.

But then again I really have no clue what I'm talking about. I honestly have no idea what vitamins, what nutrients dogs need. The big debates that I see have to do with the ingredients that go into the food but I haven't found anyone-or maybe haven't noticed-anyone that breaks it down by the bottom line-what nutritional value is the dog actually getting from the food, and what exactly do they need?

My vet really likes Iams, Science diet and Royal Canin. He doesn't get a kickback, however I do understand that science diet funds several veterinary schools? I also don't believe that the majority of vets out there are completely moronic when it comes to dog nutrition. My understanding though is that the foods he likes are normally found at the bottom of analysis lists.

He said if Fromm is working for us, it's fine but he would rather we use one of the above.

I'm just confused. What nutrients do dogs need? Why is science diet pushed so much? I really believe the vets think its great food. Is it a matter of the ingredients being lesser-however they suppliment it with additives on top of that? Is there a site that compares the bottom line-the actual nutritional value that comes out of the food? And how the heck to I even know what my little guy needs? 

What about longevity? What brands of dog foods do dogs do well on? I can tell you myself pedigree is crap. I know this because my mom has fed it since we were kids to all of our dogs. Their coats are crap, they have hot spots, their teeth are rotting out at early ages and two have died from cancer at age 13. Still, she swears by it. :twitch:


----------



## lucky (Jan 8, 2011)

Can't help you much unfortuantely but IAMS, in my opinion is not a very good quality food, I'd say that Orijen is one of the higher quality brands of kibble, even for small dogs. I'm sure someone more experienced will be able to help you more than I can though


----------



## shellbeme (Dec 8, 2010)

lucky said:


> Can't help you much unfortuantely but IAMS, in my opinion is not a very good quality food, I'd say that Orijen is one of the higher quality brands of kibble, even for small dogs. I'm sure someone more experienced will be able to help you more than I can though


That's totally ok Lucky I still appriciate your opinion on the subject  oh and I mean Eukanuba not Iams I don't know why I always get the two mixed up but I don't think one is any better than the other from what I've read.


----------



## SerenityFL (Sep 28, 2010)

Here's a place to start reading:

The Dog Food Project

I don't agree with everything on this site but it's a good place to go to find out what to avoid in dog foods.


----------



## PUNKem733 (Jun 12, 2009)

Maybe this will help. I've got a 15.5 year old dog who weighs about 20 pounds, and he only eats the highest protein, top kibble. Orijen, Acana, Evo, Horizon Legacy, Wellness core, and he does fantastic.


----------



## SpooOwner (Oct 1, 2010)

First, spoos rule! You should TOTALLY get one! Or three!

Second, there's not a ton of research on dog nutrition, but with the growth of the pet industry, it is expanding. You might enjoy these articles:

Downloads - 2007 Journal - Journals
Go to the Jan 2007 issue of JAHVMA, Steven Brown's article on page 9 re: ancestral canine diet.

http://www.orijen.ca/orijen/ORIJEN_White_paper.pdf
A white paper by Champion Foods, maker of Orijen and Acana, widely considered the top of pet foods.

There's not a ton on quality or quantity of life on different kibbles. Anecdotally, the evidence is clear that higher quality kibbles lead to a better quality of life, if not quantity.

Third, Fromm is a wonderful food and a great company. You're doing well.

Fourth, seriously, spoos are awesome!!!


----------



## Serendipity (Aug 13, 2010)

Sorry about hijacking the thread, but what's a Spoo?


----------



## SpooOwner (Oct 1, 2010)

Standard Poodle = Spoo.


----------



## lucky (Jan 8, 2011)

Serendipity said:


> Sorry about hijacking the thread, but what's a Spoo?


I was wondering that too :doh: so obvious now


----------



## Celt (Dec 27, 2010)

I can't really help on the dog food break down, but I found that Dogs All In One for Dummies to be helpful in understanding dog nutrtion a little better (although it has a bunch of other useful info). The chapter on dog nutrition begins on page 173 (at least that's the page on my e-reader). It explains what dogs need nutrtion wise, what's essential and why. And it is a pretty easy read.

Oh, I guess I should add that I don't agree with everything in the books, but it still has a lot of good info.


----------



## sozzle (May 18, 2011)

The first thing that jumped out at me after reading your post was the bit about your vet 'preferring that you fed Science Diet....etc'. My first thought was "back off, it's my choice what I feed my dog, not yours" - hey sorry to be so grumpy first thing in the morning (it is here at the arse end of the world) but you are doing the right thing in doing some research and asking questions. I looked at the ingredients list of SD once and was fairly horrified, very very grain heavy and they charge alot of money for it, my vet sells it too! I am a raw feeder but if I was to go with kibble I would go with Orijen, we can't get the choice you have in USA but it would definitely be grain free, dogs have no need for grains and can't digest them.
Good luck with your search and don't let the vet sway you if you feel otherwise!


----------



## Javadoo (May 23, 2011)

Fromm is a very good quality kibble and it's a small, family owned company.
Fromm Surf & Turf is one of the foods in my rotation.,
Much, much better than any of the foods recommended by your vet.


----------



## PDXdogmom (Jun 30, 2010)

I can only speak from my own experience. One of my dogs was fed Science Diet, Nutro and Eukanuba for the first years of his life and he experienced generally a dull coat, flabby muscle tone, low energy and itching.

Once I changed over to a rotation of foods like Orijen, Acana, Fromms Surf & Turf, and Go Natural Grain-free Endurance, he made a total turnaround. You might want to research the differences between the first group of foods I mentioned and the second group.

But the final test will be how your dog reacts to a food. What might look good on paper doesn't always produce the results you want.


----------



## shellbeme (Dec 8, 2010)

I want to thank you guys for your responses, I knew this would be one of the best places to ask around  I wanted to share some information with you that I have found.

I did read the links you all posted and I also contacted both Fromm and Science Diet. The response I recieved from Fromm was very detailed in that they directly responded to my questions. It was a person, with a name and a phone number I can contact if I choose. I have no doubt it was an individual who sat down, took the time to read it and then took the time to compose the response. He was great, I won't post their response because Fromm's quality is not in question here plus there were many details pertaining to my particular situation that were included. (Another tip off that it was a real live person taking the time to write me!) I feel asured that I did choose well for our pup.

Science diet on the other hand sent me a letter not from a person but from a general department, it took them longer to respond and I feel the letter was very generic. I shall post it for you in the next post. My impression is that the bottom line in any food (I mean nutrient content by that) may be exactly the same, however it's how they go about getting there. It sounds like Science Diet uses a ton of 'fillers' and what I took from this is that they use a lot of chemicals to achieve the nutrients they want on top of that. I honestly believe that they believe they are makin good food. And I think that vets honestly believe it's great food too.

I also learned through further reading that science diet funds many vet colleges and many classes on nutrition. (There was a wall street journal article a while back addressing why vets push it and that it possibly wasn't the best) Well does't that explain a ton. They also seem to offer not only incentives for vets to get a kickback (as many of us have heard and many vets have denied) but I also got the impression that many vets agree to sell and push Science Diet in exchange for ther tuition or a part ther of to be paid. Grant it I could have misunderstood something between the lines there but that is the impression I was left with. To me, that speaks volumes. It is also frustrating on many levels because so many of the foods we love are from smaller companies who would not be able to afford these kinds of offers.

It just baffles me that Science Diet is not keepin up with the times. People are looking a labels, and being more careful about what they are feeding their pets. I was disappionted that they are continuing to make food the way they do. I don't look down on people for what they feed their pets, and it's hard to look at frends and family and tell them it's crap when their vets say it's great. In my house though, we'll stick with Fromm. Again, I fully admit I'm no expert but I feel confident in the choice we made.


----------



## shellbeme (Dec 8, 2010)

This is the reply I recieved:

Thank you for contacting us with your question. Your interest in our Company and our products is greatly appreciated.

Over 150 veterinarians, food scientists, technicians and Ph.D nutritionists at Hill's develop Science Diet® and Prescription Diet® brand pet foods to meet the needs of your pet when it’s well or when it's sick.

Nutrients and high quality ingredients are both important in a pet food. But nutrients are vital because the body absorbs nutrients, not ingredients. The optimum nutrient blend is the result of quality ingredients that are formulated with these principles in mind:

- Ingredients should be selected for nutrients, quality and taste.
- A balance of quality ingredients delivers protein, fat, carbohydrates, fiber, vitamins and minerals to meet a pet's nutritional needs.
- No single ingredient makes a food better; a pet food is the sum of its parts.

Chicken by-product meal consists of ground, rendered, wholesome parts of the chicken. It includes white meat, dark meat, liver and viscera. It is ground into a meal and the bones are extracted. The chickens are sourced from human grade USDA inspected processing plants.

Chicken by-product meal provides a high level of protein, is highly digestible and provides a lower level of mineral content to your pet's food. It is a very tasty ingredient for both cats and dogs.

The ground corn we use is the entire kernel that has been milled and ground to the size of ground coffee. It provides an excellent source of protein, fat and carbohydrate. In this form, it has been shown to be very digestible. The processed corn we use is more digestible than the fresh corn we humans normally eat. Cereal protein when mixed with animal protein or supplemented with certain amino acids is just as good as meat protein. Vegetable fats, such as that found in ground corn, are an excellent source of unsaturated fatty acids.

You can't assume a food is right for your pet simply by reading the ingredient list, because nutrients are just as important as ingredients. Making a high quality pet food requires a precise blend of ingredients to meet a specific nutrient profile based on a pet's lifestage, lifestyle or disease condition. Hill's combines nutrient-rich, high quality ingredients to create balanced foods that have been trusted and recommended by veterinarians for more than 50 years.

Each ingredient is analyzed to ensure its safety when included in the food your pet eats.

We analyze our products’ ingredient profile for 50 nutrients to ensure your pet gets the stringent, precise formulation it needs.

We inspect every ingredient via microbiological, sensory, chemical and foreign matter testing to give you peace of mind when you feed your pet.

Only ingredient suppliers whose facilities meet stringent raw material quality standards are approved by Hill's.

Every location for every ingredient supplier is separately qualified to ensure consistency in ingredient quality.

Product quality is continuously monitored and electronically documented through on-line quality checks throughout the manufacturing process.

We conduct annual Quality Systems audits for all manufacturing facilities to ensure we meet the high standards your pet deserves.

We demand compliance with current Good Manufacturing Practices (cGMP) and Hill's high quality standards, so your pet's food is produced under clean and sanitary conditions.

We conduct final, daily safety checks on every Hill's Science Diet and Hill's Prescription Diet pet food product to help ensure the safety of your pet’s food.

All Hill's pet food products are screened for metal detection and foreign material prior to release.

All finished products are physically inspected and tested for key nutrients prior to release to help ensure your pet gets a consistent product bag to bag.

Please read our Animal Welfare Policy on our website at:
Animal Welfare

We hope this information is beneficial for you in understanding how we fulfill our mission help enrich and lengthen the special relationships between people and their pets.

If you have additional questions, please call us toll free at 1-800-445-5777, Monday - Friday, 8AM - 5PM CST, or revisit our website at HillsPet.com.

Sincerely,

Consumer Affairs
Hill's Pet Nutrition, Inc.


----------



## Liz (Sep 27, 2010)

HI, we feed raw now but when I fed kibble or recommend a kibble to people who purchase a puppy I recommend this mid cost kibbles (most people can't or won't feed 50 - 80 dollar a bag food) Nature's Domain by Diamond, found at Costco ($30.00 for 35 pounds), Taste of the Widl (all varieties) and Nutrisca. Personally - knowing my dogs aare carnivores I look for the highest meat content I could afford eith the least amount of carbs, fruits, veggies, etc., These are things my dogs did not need. Also, I always chose foods with the least ingredients as this help with allergies. Hoep that helps and good luck with your little guy, he is adorable.


----------



## trikerdon (May 14, 2011)

sozzle said:


> The first thing that jumped out at me after reading your post was the bit about your vet 'preferring that you fed Science Diet....etc'. My first thought was "back off, it's my choice what I feed my dog, not yours" - hey sorry to be so grumpy first thing in the morning (it is here at the arse end of the world) but you are doing the right thing in doing some research and asking questions. I looked at the ingredients list of SD once and was fairly horrified, very very grain heavy and they charge alot of money for it, my vet sells it too! I am a raw feeder but if I was to go with kibble I would go with Orijen, we can't get the choice you have in USA but it would definitely be grain free, dogs have no need for grains and can't digest them.
> Good luck with your search and don't let the vet sway you if you feel otherwise!


How about K9? It is made is New Zealand (I think) Supposed to be real good stuff?


----------



## sozzle (May 18, 2011)

Yes K9 Naturals is one of the best premade raw products out there from NZ (there are very few made in this country) and grain free but it does contain fruits and veges and not everyone is happy to feed their dogs that. I have some of the frozen raw (not freeze dried) product in the freezer for top ups just in case, it is very expensive, but I think they are on the right track and a small company very concerned about dog nutrition.


----------



## SerenityFL (Sep 28, 2010)

"_You can't assume a food is right for your pet simply by reading the ingredient list..._"

Really?!?!?!!?

"_All Hill's pet food products are screened for metal detection and foreign material prior to release._"

Sigh...that alone would keep me away from SD knowing that there COULD be metal and foreign material in the dog food. "Screened"...doesn't mean they catch every single one.


----------



## meggels (May 30, 2010)

One thing I never understood about Science Diet is that all their formulas, including the special one for "joint health" or "skin & coat" or "sensitive stomach" are the same when you read the ingredients and stuff lol.


----------



## monkeys23 (Dec 8, 2010)

Good for you doing your research on dog food! Fromm is a good company, but I've never used the food.

I raw feed, but if I had to go back to kibble for some reason (hope I don't have to!) I would go with Orijen or the 4 Acana grain free formulas. I've used both and really liked the results and the company Champion is awesome.


----------



## Dude and Bucks Mamma (May 14, 2011)

I would basically do the same as monkeys23. Those are the 2 brands I would use if I had to go back to kibble (I raw feed as well).

Most vets are just not taught dog nutrition. I personally don't count a handful of hours as being taught dog nutrition. I have always wondered why dog nutrition isn't one of the main things taught. It seems that vets deal with issues in pets that are almost always linked to what the animals are eating. Sure, there are plenty of physical injuries that have nothing to do with food, but food is what keeps dogs alive. Why don't vets know more?

Personally, I would find a vet who isn't being biased by a dog food company. Because I raw feed, I was dreading the lecture from my vet when I took my raw fed puppy in for the first time for vaccinations. Our vet asked us what we feed our dogs and when I said raw, she said, "Good. I have been feeding mine raw for 14 years". I happened to find a vet who shared my views on what I feed my dogs. If I got a lecture, I would have found another vet. The same would apply if I fed a higher quality kibble (like you are) and my vet told me to feed a lower quality one that he recommended (like yours did). I would either ask that the vet do some research on my chosen dog food and THEN tell me what he thinks or I would consider finding a new vet who wouldn't push me to feed a lower quality kibble.

Your dog doesn't have to be a high performance dog to eat Orijen or Acana and the like, but from what I have heard about Fromm, if your dog is doing well on it, I see no reason to change what you are feeding (unless you ever want to give raw a try, of course! Haha  ). I really haven't heard anything negative being said about Fromm from anyone.


----------



## KittyKat (Feb 11, 2011)

I knew my vet had zero knowledge of nutrition for dogs when she said they were omnivores. 

I feed my dog raw now, but on occasion she still gets some Origin in her kong. She did great on it, and I felt better knowing that I wasn't giving her a sub-standard food. 

Science diet is garbage... and it's a shame that so many vets recommend it. Hill's knows their food is substandard... but profits speak loudly.


----------



## kevin bradley (Aug 9, 2009)

simply put... most of us agree that in general, the more meat/protein a food contains, the better. Right or wrong, thats where I think most people go when evaluating a food. 

I think in GENERAL, its a good evolution of where we WERE when we all thought Iams and Eukanuba were great foods. 

However, I know personally, I need to better understand the other ingredients that go into food--issues such as balanced nutrients, etc... I'm not there. 
And I think there is probably more to a Dogs nutrition than the, "Yep, lots of meat so it's perfect" philosophy. Note-I'm NOT saying EVERYONE lacks the knowledge to go beyond this but I feel many do--me included.


----------



## shellbeme (Dec 8, 2010)

kevin bradley said:


> simply put... most of us agree that in general, the more meat/protein a food contains, the better. Right or wrong, thats where I think most people go when evaluating a food.
> 
> I think in GENERAL, its a good evolution of where we WERE when we all thought Iams and Eukanuba were great foods.
> 
> ...


I would agree with you and also add myself to that list .


----------

