# Ingredient splitting?



## ajcstr

My pet food store has good things to say about Zignature. I was looking at the ingredients in their Trout and salmon formula. Isn't this "ingredient splitting" where Peas is really the top ingredient?

Trout, Salmon Meal, *Peas, Pea Flour, Pea Protein,* Flaxseed, Chickpeas, Dehydrated Alfalfa Meal, Natural Flavors, Salmon Oil, Sunflower Oil


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## MollyWoppy

Yes. You've got it. You forgot to add in the chickpeas too.


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## A&W

ajcstr said:


> My pet food store has good things to say about Zignature. I was looking at the ingredients in their Trout and salmon formula. Isn't this "ingredient splitting" where Peas is really the top ingredient?
> 
> Trout, Salmon Meal, *Peas, Pea Flour, Pea Protein,* Flaxseed, Chickpeas, Dehydrated Alfalfa Meal, Natural Flavors, Salmon Oil, Sunflower Oil


Its garbage. My local store sell it too and gets it on consignment, they don't have to pay for it until they sell it. 

And yes count in the chickpeas and flaxseed because of how much protein they both have, but it is even worse than ingredient splitting because Pea Protein is a concentrated product.


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## Dr Dolittle

LOL! It's so fascinating to watch this industry change so much. it now is nothing more than ingredient marketing games created by consumer demand and now so prevalent that every single food company plays it. I know nothing of this food and yes, ingredient splitting is a cool trick but so is meat first which most do you fall for very willingly. Pet food companies that have absolutely no nutritional knowledge sure have figured out how to sell pet food! You don't like ingredient splitting but do not you see you,very helped Crete it? Because no one looks at nutrient anymore or even who actually formulates the diets, it is nothing but an ingredient game. All these new diets are producing so much diarrhea, urinary stones, elevated renal values, etc.....It really stinks to watch and I wish i could retire!!!!! Find me a food company that doesn't have meat first,though everyone in the industry knows it's a scam. But scams work!!!Why educate people with the truth when you can scam them with a lie? I have been in the industry to watch us grow into a very reputable industry from feeding our pets cheap crap and now I am watching it move to offering expensive crap, and to the people that care the most about their 
pets. And I blame the internet for most of it! I just cringe when someone tells me I researched a bunch of food on the internet and this one is the best. As the head nutritionist at Angel Memorial stated, not all information is the same value, consider the source. Since there are no laws concerning websites, pet food companies can say anything they want, meaning lie, and it's buyer beware. I hear This looks good. Well duh, marketing gurus making lots of money convinced you of that, not nutritionists!!!!! of course it looks good! it was designed to look good. Nutrition has nothing to do with it! Sorry for the rant! Just feeling sorry for dog lovers,that's all. I knew I should have been a forest ranger! on a more positive note, enjoy a blessed Christmas with your families, human and canine. YOu never know when it is someone's last.


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## DwayneTaylor

that is really good idea, it is really healthy because peas are the main ingredients. Yes, it would be good to add chickpeas.


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## MollyWoppy

No, peas are not a good thing. Dogs need meat proteins, not vegetable protein.


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## Kritter

So Dr. Doolittle, what brand of food do you recommend? What do you feed your dogs?


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## Dr Dolittle

Kritter, I must plead the 5th! I have been in the pet food industry for 3 decades and I simply know too much! I am simply here to offer another perspective, though basically an unpopular one. No need to be recommending or selling anything. based on my experience and inside knowledge I am so frustrated at the modern pet food marketing that is so effective with people that love their pets as family, as I do. even the companies I consider reputable are doing the same thing, simply to stay in the game. nutrition is not even discussed anymore. Remember nutrients? So I just like to add my two cents at times, mostly therapy for me and hoping it helps someone out there trying to do the best for their canine companions.


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## Kritter

I think if you offered solutions for every complaint that would be more helpful, particularly if you are in the industry.


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## Celt

Dr. Dolittle, I wouldn't mind seeing a list of foods you like/tried, simply to see if there are any I haven't tried. I've tried most of the "popular" and "grocery store" brands, even a few locally made brands. I'm always interested to hear from others about brands they've used and the results they've noticed. For me, variety is an important component of feeding my pets.I have very few biases, mostly just recall problems (the reason, the companies response, and history).


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## Kritter

Hi Celt - I'm not Dr. Doolittle! but a brand that I use is Orijen. I feed mostly homemade raw but I have to keep some kibble in my rotation for when we travel. Both my dogs do well on it. I am always looking at new brands too because I'd like to find one without added fish oils since a lot that I've read says the fats in kibble go rancid pretty quickly. I only buy 5lb bags and they last a few months. I'd prefer to add my own oils and/or feed sardines. 

What brand(s) do you like?


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## Celt

I've tried Origen but the pups didn't like it. Even my "mikey" pup was reluctant to eat it. I try to buy smaller bags too because I change up what I feed almost constantly. If I have to buy bigger bags, I package the food into smaller bags and freeze them. I don't really have a favorite, just foods my pups will eat at least somewhat enthusiatically and that they do good on. I will say a few brands I feed are not on the "good" food list. Some of the pups' "favorite" foods are Farmina chicken and ancestral grains (a real hit with them), Authority Puppy, Organix, Bil-Jac (fed seldomly because I feel it's like doggie fast food), and Dog Chow healthy morsel (my picky prince nearly crawled under a shelving unit trying to get at some of this food that had spilled out). I will say that my pups don't seem to like most of the "expensive/good" foods available to us, and I've tried a variety of them. The most recent was Victor, they would eat it but very reluctantly and only half of their usual amount.I feed mostly premade raw, followed by homecooked, but have kibble available all the time.


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## Kritter

Orijen uses multiple proteins so that may be too rich for some. What are the pre-made raw brands you use? I have had a hard time finding an economical one. I make my own primarily due to cost but also the fact that I know what's going into it. What do you use in your home cooked recipes?


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## Celt

My lot could eat Origen without upset, they just didn't like it. My 3 are small dogs (between them they eat around 12 oz.), so feeding premade (especially not full time) is a little more economical. The premade, I feed is Nature's Variety Instinct. I've tried a few other premades, but Instinct is the one they like the "best" and is affordable. The other 2, they like are Country Naturals (not, sure if that's the right name, but it is a New Zealand company) and Primal. Grandma Lucy's was liked just not as thrilled by it. These 3 are a bit out of the budget as anything other than occasional "treat" dinners.
Since I don't feed exclusively/majority home cooked, I don't "balance" the foods much. There's the boiled meats (generally boneless chicken or ground beef), grilled beef, and crockpot "puree". The puree is bone in chicken (about 3+ pounds, usually thighs or drums, skin removed from about half the pieces) cooked until the bones is squishable. I usually remove the meat before cooking, then add it in after the bones are fully cooked along with butternut squash or sweet potatoes/yams, cook til the "veggies" are soft, then add in some long cook oatmeal (about a cup). Once everything is cook, I blend it together to keep the picky princes from choosing out what they want to eat. Except for the grilled beef, I use these in a 3-1 mix with kibble. I guess these would be considered toppers for the most part although there are times I feed them on their own.


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## Kritter

Ok, thanks, I have used some of those pre-mades. They can get expensive with larger dogs. 

Off topic, but what breeds do you have? Just wondering based upon your picture. I am struggling to get weight on my chihuahua mixed with (I think) whippet. She is 1 1/2 yrs and eats more than my 5 yr old beagle/Aussie. Another post I guess but your picture makes me ask.


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## Celt

I have 3 Italian Greyhounds. Scotty has always been my hard keeper. He spent most of his puppyhood looking like a skeleton and he won't eat more than 4oz in a day. The only food we found that helps him gain and keep weight has been the Dog Chow. I don't know if it's because the carbs in it or what.


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## Dr Dolittle

Kritter said:


> I think if you offered solutions for every complaint that would be more helpful, particularly if you are in the industry.


Sorry for the delay, Kritter. yes, I am in the industry so privy to a lot of info, but hardly in a position to offer a solution! change human behavior! LOL! I guess that's the solution. Why does a company pay millions to have a 30 second commercial in a few days during the Super Bowl? Wouldn't surprise to see Blue. Buffalo on! We would never agree or believe it but marketers have learned it is easier to tell people what they want to hear to get them to buy vs educating them on the benefits of your product. I suppose we think if consumers are driving the changes in companies we think we are in control, but what we don't realize is they placed those ideas in our heads as our own, like grain free, meat first, etc and that herd mentality of humans kicks in and we act like lemmings. if I walk thru Petsmart and look at the bags and the messaging, 90% is just fluff that grabs people and gets them to buy? Now that everyone makes a grain free, you can bet the marketers are working on the next scam to differentiate themselves till everybody else does it! LOL! as an example, foods used to use words like Organic till the govt placed actual requirements on such a claim, so food companies started calling themselves Natural instead. well,when the govt came up with requirements to that claim, food companies simply came up with another cool word, Holistic. Sounds great and healthy and expensive but the term means ABSOLUTELY nothing! you can use any ingredients, any processing, any preservatives or coloring,etc and simply put Holistic on the bag. So how many people, even on this forum, feed holistic food? Because whatever definition they put on it in their own minds, sells food!

So I don't know what solution there is to marketing and greed. it will take Jesus returning! LOL! To be fair, most folks on here have dogs with allergies and GI issues and that forces you to look around but to be honest,the fiber source has probably more to do with much of that, but that is not a very glamorous topic and doesn't sell food. Example would be cellulose is probably the most expensive fiber source a company can use, at least the good stuff, but the average consumer would consider it wood shavings, as it has been called on this forum. Is that a result of education or marketing from pet food marketers? Corn is an even better example. Barring a rare situation, corn is an excellent ingredient in both dog and cat food for so many reasons, but as people read these words they are freaking out that I could say such a thing. Again, a result of education or conditioning by marketers. so no, Kritter, I have no solutions. Sorry! God, I do sound so negative sometimes!


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## Kritter

You do sound negative. I just meant instead of venting about the industry and the people who buy dog food maybe you would have some information to offer about the particular product or ingredient posted. For instance, in your opinion, what is a good fiber source versus a bad one, and why? People could take that information and do what they wish with it. I don't eat corn products. Aren't the majority genetically modified? So I don't feed corn to my dogs either. 

Hopefully this doesn't come off as argumentaive because that is not my intention. I'm just not sure that I find your posts helpful when you only seem to be using this as an outlet to vent.


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## Georgiapeach

I agree. My Dad always said to not complain unless you had a solution to offer.


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## Dr Dolittle

Georgiapeach said:


> I agree. My Dad always said to not complain unless you had a solution to offer.


Kritter and GeorgiaPeach, Point taken and can't help but agree. I suppose I can pint out the good and bad of some ingredients but a consumer also has to know how the ingredient panel is manipulated and such things as holistic meaning nothing. that may sound negative but it is a fact and pet lovers will determine what to buy by such misleading terms. maybe I will do a Facts of Life thread and just list how someone might judge a food and how not to judge a food. I will think about how to make it most helpful....LOL! Though I am certain it will cause quite a response from certain folks! LOL!
thanks for the constructive criticism!


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## Kritter

I think that's a great idea Dr. D. I look forward to reading it if you decide to post.


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## LProf

Me too. A post like that, Dr. D, would be most helpful.


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## Dr Dolittle

Still thinking on what to say!!!!


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## Kritter

Dr Dolittle said:


> Still thinking on what to say!!!!


Most people feed kibble so why not just start with your background and experience, or opinion, on what makes a kibble 
have a good nutrient profile? Then identify what a bad nutrient profile would be. People will inevitability ask about certain brands though.


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## Shamrockmommy

I love these discussions with Dr. Doolittle  I think it was a year ago we had a great conversation on this forum about nutrients vs. "pretty ingredient panels." and brand bias. 

I was able to take my dogs off super expensive grain free, holistic foods and put them on grain-inclusive foods at a reasonable price, and guess what? They are doing just fine! I had to play around with a few brands but I think I've got it right now (Fromm Gold and Precise Naturals, occasionally Purina Beyond or Ideal Balance, dry and wet food). One dog gets twice a year bloodwork and it's been just fine, the others annual bloodwork has been excellent as well. 

One clue to the quality of meat used in the foods is to look at the phosphorus content. Any more than 1% phosphorus generally shows a large amount of bone used in that meat meal, as I understand it. 

Hope some of this helps. I was a major wreck up till last year when it came to feeding my dogs! Now I've relaxed some, and they are all doing quite fine.


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## Kritter

Shamrockmommy said:


> I love these discussions with Dr. Doolittle  I think it was a year ago we had a great conversation on this forum about nutrients vs. "pretty ingredient panels." and brand bias.
> 
> I was able to take my dogs off super expensive grain free, holistic foods and put them on grain-inclusive foods at a reasonable price, and guess what? They are doing just fine! I had to play around with a few brands but I think I've got it right now (Fromm Gold and Precise Naturals, occasionally Purina Beyond or Ideal Balance, dry and wet food). One dog gets twice a year bloodwork and it's been just fine, the others annual bloodwork has been excellent as well.
> 
> One clue to the quality of meat used in the foods is to look at the phosphorus content. Any more than 1% phosphorus generally shows a large amount of bone used in that meat meal, as I understand it.
> 
> Hope some of this helps. I was a major wreck up till last year when it came to feeding my dogs! Now I've relaxed some, and they are all doing quite fine.


What were the super expensive holistic foods you were using?


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## MollyWoppy

I know its slightly off topic, but Company integrity is a huge concern of mine, regardless of the quality of the food, which is often questionable anyway. If a company has a history of recalls, if they coincidentally own rendering plants, if they refuse or delay issuing a recall when there is overwhelming evidence their product is harming or killing pets, if there are class action law suits issued against them, then I would never trust their foods. If they will not willingly disclose the level of ash or carbs in their foods, then you have to wonder why.


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## Kritter

MollyWoppy said:


> I know its slightly off topic, but Company integrity is a huge concern of mine, regardless of the quality of the food, which is often questionable anyway. If a company has a history of recalls, if they coincidentally own rendering plants, if they refuse or delay issuing a recall when there is overwhelming evidence their product is harming or killing pets, if there are class action law suits issued against them, then I would never trust their foods. If they will not willingly disclose the level of ash or carbs in their foods, then you have to wonder why.


If you are referring to specific companies, I would like to know who they are. I shy away from companies that have had recalls but don't usually look into the other items you mentioned.


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## Dr Dolittle

Okay, I'll try! Let's call it What's A Good Nutirnet Profile Anyway?


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## Kritter

Looking forward to it!


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## Dr Dolittle

Okay, well, there ya go! I know! Still negative! LOL! And apologies for the horrible spelling. My brain works faster then my two typing fingers!


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## Kritter

Dr Dolittle said:


> Okay, well, there ya go! I know! Still negative! LOL! And apologies for the horrible spelling. My brain works faster then my two typing fingers!


You do have horrible spelling, by default of of your fast brain and slow fingers But as long as you are providing facts then it's not negative. I think a lot of people have opinions on what makes a good kibble, as I do, and I would love to hear more. I wish I could take a class that teaches me how to feed my dogs properly. I just read as much as I can.


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## sparrow

Hmm interesting I should look into that ingredient splitting, I might have seen that but now this will keep my eye open for those.


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