# Horizon Legacy Fish



## DaViking (Sep 27, 2011)

Horizon is out with a fish version of it's grain free Legacy series. 34/15

Horizon Pet Nutrition | Facebook

Horizon Legacy Pet Food - Legacy Dog

Canadians can also buy it online at Biopaw® Canada

Salmon, salmon meal, peas, pea starch, menhadon meal, salmon oil (preserved with mixed tocopherols), pea fibre, alfalfa, flaxseed, liquid egg product, carrots, apples, broccoli, bok choy, cabbage, blueberries, salt, fructooligosaccharides, yucca schidigera extract, glucosamine hydrochloride, chondroitin sulphate, dried saccharomyces cerevisiae fermentation extract, dried aspergillus niger fermentation extract, dried aspergillus oryzae fermentation extract, pineapple, dried trichoderma longibrachiatum fermentation extract, dried rhizopus oryzae fermentation extract, dried enterococcus faecium fermentation product, dried lactobacillus casei fermentation product, dried lactobacillus acidophilus fermentation product, dried bifidobacterium bifidum fermentation product, dried lactobacillus plantarum fermentation product, vitamin A acetate, vitamin D3 supplement, vitamin E supplement, vitamin B12 supplement, riboflavin, niacin, folic acid, pyridoxine hydrochloride, thiamine mononitrate, d-calcium pantothenate, biotin, l-ascorbyl-2-polyphosphate (source of vitamin C), ferrous sulphate, iron proteinate, zinc sulphate, zinc proteinate, manganous oxide, manganese proteinate, copper sulphate, copper proteinate, calcium iodate, sodium selenite, magnesium oxide


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## PDXdogmom (Jun 30, 2010)

Have you been feeding the other Horizon formulas? Are you planning on trying this new fish one?

I like that they use menhaden meal. I hadn't looked at any of Horizon's ingredient lists for a couple of years. I fed it briefly, but it's not distributed very widely here.

It's interesting they use so many fermentation ingredients. If you lumped all 10 of them under the term "yeast culture", they would place pretty high in the ingredient lists. It makes me think of Canine Caviar. 

Last fall Canine Caviar came out with some new formulas and re-formulated some of their old. They previewed the ingredient lists and got a big backlash. The 3rd ingredient, just before the fat source, was "yeast culture" in all the formulas. That didn't sit well with a lot of people; so they broke the term down into all its component parts (listed as "fermentation" ingredients). Same amount used . . . just listed differently. This seems to be the way more dog foods are going. Most brands use some fermentation ingredients, but usually much further down the list - like in Taste of the Wild.

I'm not saying it's good or bad - just find it an interesting trend.


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## Unosmom (May 3, 2009)

I've fed the chicken one in the past and Uno has done fine on it, I cant remember whether that one had the yeast in it because Uno is allergic to it and he didnt have a reaction. But they also reformulated their food, so its possible that they began to add it in.


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## DaViking (Sep 27, 2011)

PDXdogmom said:


> Have you been feeding the other Horizon formulas? Are you planning on trying this new fish one?
> 
> I like that they use menhaden meal. I hadn't looked at any of Horizon's ingredient lists for a couple of years. I fed it briefly, but it's not distributed very widely here.
> 
> ...


I rotate Legacy Chicken together with Back To Basics Pork. Legacy works great for Chips. Compared to other dogs I've had his digestion seems very quick. Maybe I'm just not used to smaller dogs, don't know. We have had problems firming up the poop with other foods he tried. Legacy was the first of the GF formulas he was able to process with no watery XL size poops. I might try to add this fish formula to the mix and a fourth red meat alternative before we settle down.

It's hard to tell where in the list the combined cultures would land. #3 as in Canine Caviar's case seems very high to me. If I where to do a guesstimate I'd say around liquid egg product, carrots and apples, I might be wrong. I think splitting up the yeast into named cultures is a good thing. The more detail the better.


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## PDXdogmom (Jun 30, 2010)

DaViking said:


> I rotate Legacy Chicken together with Back To Basics Pork. Legacy works great for Chips. Compared to other dogs I've had his digestion seems very quick. Maybe I'm just not used to smaller dogs, don't know. We have had problems firming up the poop with other foods he tried. *Legacy was the first of the GF formulas he was able to process with no watery XL size poops*. I might try to add this fish formula to the mix.
> 
> It's hard to tell where in the list the combined cultures would land. #3 as in in Canine Caviar's case seems very high to me. If I where to do a guesstimate I'd say around liquid egg product, carrots and apples. I think splitting up the yeast into named cultures is a good thing. The more detail the better.


I wonder if the inclusion of fructooligosaccharides might be helping your dog with better utilization of the kibble. I've read that it is a recommended ingredient for dogs who are prone to colitis. I don't see it included in any other grain free formulas I'm familiar with: Orijen, Acana, Wellness Core, Taste of the Wild, Fromm


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## DaViking (Sep 27, 2011)

PDXdogmom said:


> I wonder if the inclusion of fructooligosaccharides might be helping your dog with better utilization of the kibble. I've read that it is a recommended ingredient for dogs who are prone to colitis. I don't see it included in any other grain free formulas I'm familiar with: Orijen, Acana, Wellness Core, Taste of the Wild, Fromm


It is absolutely possible that the MOS and FOS really helps him. FOS have become a popular prebiotic. It also indirectly reduces pH which should be a good side effect for many dogs. He didn't have any issues transitioning to B2B Pork but that's a different beast all together. I am not aware of any other brand with FOS either. Maybe someone will chime in if they know of any?


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## RCTRIPLEFRESH5 (Feb 11, 2010)

PDXdogmom said:


> Have you been feeding the other Horizon formulas? Are you planning on trying this new fish one?
> *
> I like that they use menhaden meal. *I hadn't looked at any of Horizon's ingredient lists for a couple of years. I fed it briefly, but it's not distributed very widely here.
> 
> .


why?????????


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## DaViking (Sep 27, 2011)

RCTRIPLEFRESH5 said:


> why?????????


Dried into meal it is full of nutrients. As long as you don't have to put it in your pan there is nothing wrong with menhaden meal. It is in there to balance the food, it is not a competition over who can have the most luxury items among the top 10 ingredients. Think of it as a mug filled with water. When it's full it's full and the excess is simply wasted. I could pour on with monkfish, linge, Norwegian wild brown trout, etc etc but it wouldn't add to it or make it more appropriate.

Why are you against it?


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## RCTRIPLEFRESH5 (Feb 11, 2010)

DaViking said:


> Dried into meal it is full of nutrients. As long as you don't have to put it in your pan there is nothing wrong with menhaden meal. It is in there to balance the food, it is not a competition over who can have the most luxury items among the top 10 ingredients. Think of it as a mug filled with water. When it's full it's full and the excess is simply wasted. I could pour on with monkfish, linge, Norwegian wild brown trout, etc etc but it wouldn't add to it or make it more appropriate.
> 
> Why are you against it?


a mug ful of sardine oil would be way better than a mug full of cod oil.

I am not AGAINST it..but * i just found it odd how pdxmom specifically said she was HAPPY that mehaden fish meal was used when so many foods use salmon*, or herring meal...and pdx mom new opening the threa that some fish meal was in it

plus mfm is not safe for humans.


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## Unosmom (May 3, 2009)

I think menhaden fish gets unnecessary bad rap because its not as well sought after for human consumption as salmon or herring. People dont eat it because its smelly and bony, but dogs couldnt care less.


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## DaViking (Sep 27, 2011)

RCTRIPLEFRESH5 said:


> plus mfm is not safe for humans.


I'd like to read it if you have a source for that?


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## PDXdogmom (Jun 30, 2010)

Menhaden meal is not unsafe for humans; it's just not desirable due to its small size and high oil content. They are high in protein and omega 3s

Menhaden fish feed off of algae and other plants; so they are not ingesting other fish. That keeps contamination levels down. While fresh wild salmon caught in the least contaminated parts of oceans is a great nutritious fish, that is probably not the quality level found in most pet food. We don't know what percentage may be farmed salmon.

That's why I find a kibble listing both salmon and menhaden meal to be more desirable than a kibble including only salmon. Herring, closely related to menhaden, would be another good fish.


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## DaViking (Sep 27, 2011)

PDXdogmom said:


> It's interesting they use so many fermentation ingredients. If you lumped all 10 of them under the term "yeast culture", they would place pretty high in the ingredient lists. It makes me think of Canine Caviar.
> 
> Last fall Canine Caviar came out with some new formulas and re-formulated some of their old. They previewed the ingredient lists and got a big backlash. The 3rd ingredient, just before the fat source, was "yeast culture" in all the formulas. That didn't sit well with a lot of people; so they broke the term down into all its component parts (listed as "fermentation" ingredients). Same amount used . . . just listed differently. This seems to be the way more dog foods are going. Most brands use some fermentation ingredients, but usually much further down the list - like in Taste of the Wild.
> 
> I'm not saying it's good or bad - just find it an interesting trend.


I had a look at the Canine Caviar formulas. They have the first yeast culture as high as ingredient number 5 in many cases. No wonder it will add up to number 3 combined. The first Legacy yeast culture is number 22 on the list so the combined amount is probably not that big. Still, it doesn't say anything about the actual distribution/impact in the two foods. I have a feeling CC might use "yeast cultures" as a (major) source of nutrients and not primarily as an additive. Many dairy and cattle farmers do this. Just a speculation but that could explain why their energy numbers are off the charts.

Have anyone here fed any of the Canine Caviar formulas?


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## PDXdogmom (Jun 30, 2010)

DaViking said:


> I had a look at the Canine Caviar formulas. They have the first yeast culture as high as ingredient number 5 in many cases. No wonder it will add up to number 3 combined. The first Legacy yeast culture is number 22 on the list so the combined amount is probably not that big. Still, it doesn't say anything about the actual distribution/impact in the two foods.* I have a feeling CC might use "yeast cultures" as a (major) source of nutrients and not primarily as an additive*. Many dairy and cattle farmers do this. Just a speculation but that could explain why their energy numbers are off the charts.
> 
> Have anyone here fed any of the Canine Caviar formulas?


I totally agree with you. When this was all coming about last fall I did a lot of research on it. As you say,yeast culture had been around in the livestock arena for some time. Canine Caviar, IMO, is mimicking a livestock feed for dogs. Here is a sample of one of many articles on the use of yeast culture in the beef industry. Again, I don't see it as a totally negative ingredient, but I am concerned by how large of a percentage of it may be in a dog kibble. Cattle Today: YEAST PRODUCTS CAN HAVE POSITIVE EFFECTS ON CATTLE PERFORMANCE


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## DaViking (Sep 27, 2011)

PDXdogmom said:


> I totally agree with you. When this was all coming about last fall I did a lot of research on it. As you say,yeast culture had been around in the livestock arena for some time. Canine Caviar, IMO, is mimicking a livestock feed for dogs. Here is a sample of one of many articles on the use of yeast culture in the beef industry. Again, I don't see it as a totally negative ingredient, but I am concerned by how large of a percentage of it may be in a dog kibble. Cattle Today: YEAST PRODUCTS CAN HAVE POSITIVE EFFECTS ON CATTLE PERFORMANCE


Yeah, I am with you. They kind of messed it up I think. Soo many good quality ingredients, guaranteed GMO free, certified organic, etc. and then they go and add lots of (seems like) industrial cattle feed. Blows my mind why they would do that. They only need to look at Orijen and Acana to see how popular they have become because of their straight up no bs ingredients and sourcing.


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## PDXdogmom (Jun 30, 2010)

DaViking said:


> Yeah, I am with you. They kind of messed it up I think. Soo many good quality ingredients, guaranteed GMO free, certified organic, etc. and then they go and add lots of (seems like) industrial cattle feed. Blows my mind why they would do that. *They only need to look at Orijen and Acana to see how popular they have become because of their straight up no bs ingredients and sourcing.*


*
*

Or a line like California Natural with an even more straight up and simple list of ingredients with sourcing identified.

http://www.seebeyondthebag.com/


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