# Corn...



## skadoosh

Corn as an ingredient in dog food... why is it so bad? Does anyone have any proof or literature or simply anectdotes? (I'm not pro corn nor am I against it). 
I have been hearing more and more of people turning away from grain inclusive foods to grain free-- which simply means another "filler", whether that be potatoes or lentils or beans. What are the significant differences? Are there actually any? Which one is better or worse? I would love some info on this. 

I also wonder what the difference is between scavengers and obligate carnivores. I may need to split this thread. Please let me know if I should and I will


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## Kayota

I was not trying to get you to switch to raw, I only mentioned it in passing. You can feed your dog whatever you want, it's your dog.

Dogs have the same bodies as wolves and this is scientifically proven. You definitely don't see wolves eating corn off the stalk.


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## sozzle

No you don't, but they sure like to eat grass like a horse! well my boy does when we got out walking. I personally think many dogs will do well on a variety of foods even if they are not 'species appropriate' because they are scavengers. Personally my dog does really well on raw PMR but I do also feed him NZ made commercial dog food (not canned or kibble) just for variety. (And being such a small country it is easy to get hold of the actual owners and manufacturers of these foods when you want to ask questions.)


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## Kibblelady

skadoosh said:


> Corn as an ingredient in dog food... why is it so bad? Does anyone have any proof or literature or simply anectdotes? (I'm not pro corn nor am I against it).
> I have been hearing more and more of people turning away from grain inclusive foods to grain free-- which simply means another "filler", whether that be potatoes or lentils or beans. What are the significant differences? Are there actually any? Which one is better or worse? I would love some info on this.
> 
> I also wonder what the difference is between scavengers and obligate carnivores. I may need to split this thread. Please let me know if I should and I will


Not sure if I have the time for a corn discussion today...it will probably have to wait. However, an obligate carnivore has amino acid needs that can only be met by animal sources, in cats specifically Taurine. Dogs are not obligate as they can meet their needs with plant matter *if* they had to, I know people do not like that but tis true. A scavenger has nothing to do with the above, it is just the way some canids "hunt" for food but finding whatever they can, make sense?


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## Caty M

To me, it's not corn that's the devil... it's carbohydrates in general that I don't think are good for dogs. BUT, corn does tend to be GMO, and most of the foods that contain corn are higher in grains/carbs in general than foods containing potato, tapioca, etc. You don't see many foods that are 75%+ animal ingredients like Orijen, EVO, etc which I consider to be high quality, that contain corn.


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## magicre

:usa::usa::usa::usa::usa:


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## Kibblelady

All foods containing grains rather than potato, tapioca and that have tons of meat in them like Evo have the same type of profile...corn is not any different in that aspect. The difference can be in the glycemic indexes but it depends on what is being used and a number of them are very similar this is why corn was used for so many years, it added great energy, was well tolerated and digested in meal form and processed form etc There are "problems" with each grain well, in my book not rice and corn. Wheat, rye and barley contain gluten which can be a huge problem for a number of dogs... many dogs have a gluten intolerance rather than allergy and this is misunderstood by the owners. Corn does not contain the protein gluten, neither does rice. Barley causes very bulky, frequent stools so... it cannot be used in volume so much because it causes potty problems for many dogs and their owners. Sorghum is gluten free and has a low glycemic index (which is what Iams studied and why they switched to it) but it can cause GI issues at times, bulky stools, gas issues.... it really is hard for manufacturers these days making conventional products because of the outcry toward certain grains. They want to make consumers happy of course but most of the time the consumer is ill informed and is simply making it harder on the manufacture in making their products as well as well...messing the products up  .... corn became the bad guy a looong time ago, but did nothing wrong lol When some companies decided to base products on corn that was and is wrong... it is not proper for a dog in long term feeding IMO but that does not mean corn is bad... it was simply used incorrectly. As far as GMO..well we have to get into that, I have been looking at it but I will have to email a few companies to see what they say about it. Blackwood uses corn....I will ask them and see what they say about the GMO thing.


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## Kibblelady

magicre said:


> many dogs simply do not tolerate corn.
> 
> we can get into a discussion about whether a dog is a carnivore or not, but corn is one of those ingredients, along with soy and rosemary extract, that dogs' digestion simply doesn't like.


There are literally hundreds of studies showing corn is well digested and tolerated..... I have yet to read one that agrees with what you have written above. I could list them but it is easier for you to go to PubMed and look them up as there are so many.

Here is one from 2002 out of Australia from the Journal of Nutrition in the US.... shows digestibility study of rice, corn and sorghum...

The Use of Sorghum and Corn as Alternatives to Rice in Dog Foods


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## Kibblelady

This study relates to cats... it was specifically about the effects of carb sources on cats with IBD. They uncovered some questions however the results are also interesting...it seems that it is the IBD itself that causes malabsorbtion and basically all carb sources studied performed the same...even rice. It recommends more studies... just found it interesting in the case of IBD mentioned. Accusing the corn of causing the IBD may not be accurate.... I'll keep looking.

Carbohydrate Malabsorption Is a Feature of Feline Inflammatory Bowel Disease but Does Not Increase Clinical Gastrointestinal Signs


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## Makovach

I've never had a dog that has done well on a food with corn in it. I also haven't personally met a dog that doesn't have issues that is being fed a food with corn in it. Granted, it may or may not be the corn, but the other ingredients in the food like soy, wheat ect. I have three dogs that don't can't and won't tolerate foods that have such ingredients in it. I guess I get my opinion off of being biased and not having a look from the other side because I've never met a dog that hasn't had issues from a dull coat to dry skin to hot spots when being fed a diet with corn in it. I've also noticed a lot of other ingredients that tend to fallow in food with corn. And it is always in the back of my head that dogs are carnivores, weather they can survive on plant matter or not, I believe that meat is what should make up the majority of the food, 

I guess what I am trying to say is, that I've had so many people I know personally, and from different training classes and working at a pet store that have had many issues while feeding a food with corn in it. Once they switched to something excluding corn wheat soy ect, their problems went away for the most part. So maybe the corn gets the bad rep, but the food in a whole is the issue. I have no idea, no research behind this and I don't really car, because I can see what works for my dogs as well as others dogs, and corn isn't it. This is simply my opinion.


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## Kibblelady

This study does not mention corn directly however it contains a ton of information on the IBD itself, the part on SCFAs and other fatty acids from fish oil were intriguing.

Diet and Large Intestinal Disease in Dogs and Cats


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## Kibblelady

Melissa, basically corn itself, it's profile, is insanely good for skin and coat just due to it's fatty acid profile.My mini Dachie right now has some dry skin, why? I don't know...she eats so little. So I am supplementing her with a teaspoon of corn oil per day. I have always done this and it has always fixed the problem. People must consider if it was the over all diet they were feeding sometimes when they have problems like you described. When diet is lacking...the first thing to suffer is skin and coat. Can I ask what food these people or yourself were feeding at the time of the problems if you know? So we can look at them?

For instance...saying someone was feeding Purina Dog Chow or Kibbles & Bits and had a problem with corn in the diet is very different from saying they had a problem with Pro Plan, Annamaet or Blackwood including corn in the diet, make sense?

Good article about fatty acids The Dog Food Project - Nutrients: Essential Fatty Acids

The corn oil I am giving I am doing so to provide more Linoleic acid. Now, before people freak, dogs convert LA to alpha-linolinec acid.... I do not supplement a lot and just until what ever is going on is gone. It seems backwards but, has always worked for me in all these years. The food I feed does not contain corn.... she has just been slacking on eating her food due to the heat I suspect. Condition and behavior is fine, nothing is "wrong" with her, just needs a boost of fatty acid IMO. She is the only one with this dry skin, her coat is still beautiful, she is just an itty bitty that isn't eating enough probably to get what she needs fatty acid wise.


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## shellbell

I would avoid corn as it is a grain that is more likely to possibly become contaminated with aflatoxin. This is a toxin that comes about due to it being improperly stored (akin to how something would get moldy) and can make your dog very sick and possibly lead to death. A lot of dog foods have been recalled due to aflatoxin.


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## Kibblelady

shellbell said:


> I would avoid corn as it is a grain that is more likely to possibly become contaminated with aflatoxin. This is a toxin that comes about due to it being improperly stored (akin to how something would get moldy) and can make your dog very sick and possibly lead to death. A lot of dog foods have been recalled due to aflatoxin.



The part about alflatoxin is true however, this is not predominantly from poor storage. Corn can begin to grow alflatoxin simply due to drought conditions, severe weather temps and stress to the plant. This year may be bad for example and much corn will be redirected to produce ethanol. The high temps, humidity and moisture stress is a concern for farmers.

There are many mycotoxins though  Wheat, beer, bread, peanuts and apples can also become infected with other mycotoxins....


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## shellbell

Kibblelady said:


> The part about alflatoxin is true however, this is not predominantly from poor storage. Corn can begin to grow alflatoxin simply due to drought conditions, severe weather temps and stress to the plant. This year may be bad for example and much corn will be redirected to produce ethanol. The high temps, humidity and moisture stress is a concern for farmers.
> 
> There are many mycotoxins though  Wheat, beer, bread, peanuts and apples can also become infected with other mycotoxins....


Exactly.....


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## Kibblelady

shellbell said:


> Exactly.....


Exactly to what? The fact that much of our food stuff can contain mycotoxins?


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## naturalfeddogs

shellbell said:


> I would avoid corn as it is a grain that is more likely to possibly become contaminated with aflatoxin. This is a toxin that comes about due to it being improperly stored (akin to how something would get moldy) and can make your dog very sick and possibly lead to death. A lot of dog foods have been recalled due to aflatoxin.


Not sure about this in dogs, but for horses corn oil is an inflamatory. It causes allergies so commonly, maybe it would be considered an inflamatory for them as well.


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## naturalfeddogs

Kibblelady said:


> Melissa, basically corn itself, it's profile, is insanely good for skin and coat just due to it's fatty acid profile.My mini Dachie right now has some dry skin, why? I don't know...she eats so little. So I am supplementing her with a teaspoon of corn oil per day. I have always done this and it has always fixed the problem. People must consider if it was the over all diet they were feeding sometimes when they have problems like you described. When diet is lacking...the first thing to suffer is skin and coat. Can I ask what food these people or yourself were feeding at the time of the problems if you know? So we can look at them?
> 
> For instance...saying someone was feeding Purina Dog Chow or Kibbles & Bits and had a problem with corn in the diet is very different from saying they had a problem with Pro Plan, Annamaet or Blackwood including corn in the diet, make sense?
> 
> Good article about fatty acids The Dog Food Project - Nutrients: Essential Fatty Acids
> 
> The corn oil I am giving I am doing so to provide more Linoleic acid. Now, before people freak, dogs convert LA to alpha-linolinec acid.... I do not supplement a lot and just until what ever is going on is gone. It seems backwards but, has always worked for me in all these years. The food I feed does not contain corn.... she has just been slacking on eating her food due to the heat I suspect. Condition and behavior is fine, nothing is "wrong" with her, just needs a boost of fatty acid IMO. She is the only one with this dry skin, her coat is still beautiful, she is just an itty bitty that isn't eating enough probably to get what she needs fatty acid wise.


Why not just use fish oil? It comes from an animal rather than a grain.


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## Sheltielover25

Bottom line for me when it comes to corn, for my dog or myself, is the majority of it is GMO. And we can argue until we're blue in the face that you can't prove Purina or some other brand uses GMO corn, but we all know a company that produces such an inferior product is going to use GMO corn. I know for a fact if it was organic corn, they'd put that on their because it would be a major selling point for some. Therefor, it's GMO. That's my number one followed by many others on the dog side. I do get local corn at the farmers market for myself and my wife.


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## shellbell

Kibblelady said:


> Exactly to what? The fact that much of our food stuff can contain mycotoxins?


To pretty much everything you said. Yes the part that much of our food can contain mycotoxins, but mainly the part that there are many things that can (and do) cause alflatoxins. This would be reason enough for me to be concerned about corn being in food. I don't think there is anything inherently wrong with corn (other than the fact that in general it is not something a carnivore would eat, but that is a whole other tangent). But there is a big difference between good quality corn and corn that has been mishandled or had other factors that could cause it to go bad. And well most pet food companies don't seek out the good stuff, so....


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## Kayota

IMO GMO isn't that big of a deal after having learned about it in depth in my microbiology course, but I still don't like corn. Maybe it's a stupid aversion but I just don't like it. It seems like a cheap way to add bulk to the diet. I think Dog Food Advisor says it best:

"As a whole grain, corn is not easily digestible. Unless the kernel is first refined into a meal or a flour (and then cooked), corn can be very difficult for a dog to digest.

As a matter of fact, corn (and other grains) are only digestible to the extent to which they’re processed."

Corn is very inappropriate for a dog's diet and I even try to avoid it in my own.


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## Justapup

Question: Has anyone noticed energy level differences when feeding foods with corn and foods without corn? To me my dogs seem to be more hyper with corn (not more energy but like a child with ADHD and just drank sugar).


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## SaharaNight Boxers

From what I've learned it's from all the carbs and sugar as it spikes their blood sugar.


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## Makovach

Kibblelady said:


> Melissa, basically corn itself, it's profile, is insanely good for skin and coat just due to it's fatty acid profile.My mini Dachie right now has some dry skin, why? I don't know...she eats so little. So I am supplementing her with a teaspoon of corn oil per day. I have always done this and it has always fixed the problem. People must consider if it was the over all diet they were feeding sometimes when they have problems like you described. When diet is lacking...the first thing to suffer is skin and coat. Can I ask what food these people or yourself were feeding at the time of the problems if you know? So we can look at them?


Proplan, Purina vet diets, Science Diet, Royal Cannin, Iams, Eukanuba, Among many others as well as the cheep grocery store foods like purina, pedigree ect. 

Regardless, my opinion won't change. I've see too much good come out of nixing corn. And like I said, maybe its not the corn, but the other ingredients that tend to fallow corn into dog foods.


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## KittyKat

skadoosh said:


> Corn as an ingredient in dog food... why is it so bad? Does anyone have any proof or literature or simply anectdotes? (I'm not pro corn nor am I against it).
> I have been hearing more and more of people turning away from grain inclusive foods to grain free-- which simply means another "filler", whether that be potatoes or lentils or beans. What are the significant differences? Are there actually any? Which one is better or worse? I would love some info on this.
> 
> I also wonder what the difference is between scavengers and obligate carnivores. I may need to split this thread. Please let me know if I should and I will


I won't touch on corn, besides saying it's a filler, just like plenty of other stuff in processed food.

As for scavengers and obligate carnivores... well you are missing the majour keystones here, so i'll go over them in brief and then touch on that.

The order of Carnivora can be thought of as three separate categories, Hypercarnivore, Mesocarnivore and Hypocarnivore and they are ranked in decending order in terms of meat in their diet. 

Hypercarnviores are animals who's diet is made up of over 70% meat. This doesn't mean animals in this group only eat 70% meat - many consume an all meat diet. This term is also used to describe animals who have a slicing component of their jaws instead of a grinding one. If you look at the jaw of the human we have a grinding component, if you look at your dog or cat they do not have that component and instead have a jaw designed for slicing. Their molars are designed for crushing bone. You can also tell by looking at their teeth how much meat they eat (I won't get into the specifics here though). Dogs (Canis lupus familiaris), are also part of this group and have the same teeth and jaw makeup as the grey wolf as they are directly related to the wolf - not decended from, but more like a cousin of the wolf. The wolf did not breed with another animal to create a dog, dogs only have the grey wolf in their DNA. 
This group also comprises of cats, hyaenas, mustelids (weasels, otters etc). Wolves (and dogs) have a diet that is mostly composed of meat. By mostly I mean 99.9%. The .1% is plants and berries. Now there is one section of wolf wherein you find more plant matter, and that is wolves from 1-2 years of age where .3% of their diet contains plant matter. It is suspected this is due to more competition for food.

Obligate carnivoures are animals like cats. They are still hypercarnivores. Cats are unable to produce their own taurine. You can consider it an evolutionary advantage that other carnivores - like dogs - are able to. Taurine is found in certain meats in the animal, hearts contain a large portion of it. Taurine also breaks down very easily. Since they cannot produce it they require a diet full of it. Basically they require the flesh of animals for survival due to this need for certain nutrients.

You also have some oddities like the bear. Polar bears diets are basically all meat... and then you have the american black bear which has a mostly plant diet. Still a member of the order, but would be considered a Hypocarnivore.


Sorry if that's confusing, i had a bunch of points but didn't want to write an essay so i have poor transitions there....


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## lauren43

Awesome post kittykat, I feel like this should be copied to the post titled "the difference".

I'm actually really enjoying these posts about corn and the more controversial topics, it's made me think and simply want to learn more. Keep the info coming.


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## DaViking

Justapup said:


> Question: Has anyone noticed energy level differences when feeding foods with corn and foods without corn? To me my dogs seem to be more hyper with corn (not more energy but like a child with ADHD and just drank sugar).


It's a myth at best an oversimplification. It's the overall balance of the formula that can cause "hyperactivity" Well formulated foods used in correct situations does not lead to odd behaviour and spikes of hyperactivity (barring any medical situations). Any bad formula or a formula used in a wrong situation can result in an unbalanced dog.

The last food I tested was a high quality animal based classic corn inclusive formula with 30% carbohydrates. Of all the foods I have used in the last years this one seemed to balance our JRT mix in a way no other high protein GF food did. JRT's are not exactly calm and sedate dogs. Feed a low quality formula which result in crazy glucose spikes and I will guarantee any JRT blood will be bouncing of the walls  Bottom line, it's how a food is formulated and not individual ingredients that will dictate any results and/or behavior.


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## KittyKat

DaViking said:


> It's a myth at best an oversimplification. It's the overall balance of the formula that can cause "hyperactivity" Well formulated foods used in correct situations does not lead to odd behaviour and spikes of hyperactivity (barring any medical situations). Any bad formula or a formula used in a wrong situation can result in an unbalanced dog.
> 
> The last food I tested was a high quality animal based classic corn inclusive formula with 30% carbohydrates. Of all the foods I have used in the last years this one seemed to balance our JRT mix in a way no other high protein GF food did. JRT's are not exactly calm and sedate dogs. Feed a low quality formula which result in crazy glucose spikes and I will guarantee any JRT blood will be bouncing of the walls  Bottom line, it's how a food is formulated and not individual ingredients that will dictate any results and/or behavior.


Corn is actually lower on the Glycaemic Index then say rice. At least sweet corn is... i can't speak for the other varieties. It would be on par with say a potato or buckwheat. Peas are a bit lower than corn/potatoes. Soy beans are very low. So theoretically is anything is going to up a dogs (or persons) blood sugar levels it would be a food with rice as it's base - not corn. But yeah, balance is what is key here - the whole is more than the sum of it's parts... or whatever. I think I messed up that quote royally. That's gonna bug me all day now.


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## DaViking

Kayota said:


> IMO GMO isn't that big of a deal after having learned about it in depth in my microbiology course, but I still don't like corn. Maybe it's a stupid aversion but I just don't like it. It seems like a cheap way to add bulk to the diet. I think Dog Food Advisor says it best:
> 
> "As a whole grain, corn is not easily digestible. Unless the kernel is first refined into a meal or a flour (and then cooked), corn can be very difficult for a dog to digest.
> 
> As a matter of fact, corn (and other grains) are only digestible to the extent to which they’re processed."
> 
> Corn is very inappropriate for a dog's diet and I even try to avoid it in my own.


Corn is not inappropriate in a dog's diet. Want to avoid GMO? Just buy a formula that is also exported to the EU or made on the same line as such a product. Usually whole plants are GMO free because of strict EU regulations on cross contamination.

Kibble is a processed product so bashing corn for not being digestible in it's raw form is kind'a moot. All corn products we are talking about here are processed. "Whole corn" does not mean whole raw kernels as they come from mother nature. It means processed without separating out any parts of the corn. They are "whole" The dog food advisor's post on corn is a train wreck in my opinion. He says a lot without actually saying anything in the end.


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## DaViking

Makovach said:


> And like I said, maybe its not the corn, but the other ingredients that tend to fallow corn into dog foods.


More than likely not the corn at all. For many foods it's simply a crappy unbalanced formulation where cost saving and volume is key factors.


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## DaViking

shellbell said:


> But there is a big difference between good quality corn and corn that has been mishandled or had other factors that could cause it to go bad. And well most pet food companies don't seek out the good stuff, so....


I don't agree with that last part at all. Those companies who live and die by happy knowledgeable customers seeks out the best they can get their hands on. There are a lot of mid tier brands that can afford to compromise more simply because of their distribution and the fact that their target customers not necessarily is the most knowledgeable as a group and tend to be creatures of habit. Educated and knowledgeable dog owners and handlers in all kinds of hunting, sports and working areas will drop a formula in a heartbeat if the results are not good.


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## DaViking

magicre said:


> many dogs simply do not tolerate corn.
> 
> we can get into a discussion about whether a dog is a carnivore or not, but corn is one of those ingredients, along with soy and rosemary extract, that dogs' digestion simply doesn't like.
> 
> there are other ingredients, but generally grains and starches are not what you want to feed the dog, because of the relationship between a too alkalinic pH and the effect on their gastric systems, i.e. IBD, IBS, etc.


1) "Many" dogs can't stomach chicken either, "many" don't cut the mustard - moot point

2) On staff nutritionist are there to formulate a balanced food which results in appropriate acid levels and smooth functioning gastro-intestinal systems. Crap companies with crap formulas and companies who fall victim to inappropriate market pressure will formulate ill functioning foods


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## MollyWoppy

This is what I don't understand. 
In Dr Tim's Premium All Natural Pet Foods website, on each and everyone of his foods it says this:
'To minimize allergic reaction, corn and soy products are not used in (insert name of food).'
Call me stupid, but it suggests to me that Dr Tim thinks corn may not be such a good ingredient.


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## Roo

> Those companies who live and die by happy knowledgeable customers seeks out the best they can get their hands on. There are a lot of mid tier brands that can afford to compromise more simply because of their distribution and the fact that their target customers not necessarily is the most knowledgeable as a group and tend to be creatures of habit. Educated and knowledgeable dog owners and handlers in all kinds of hunting, sports and working areas will drop a formula in a heartbeat if the results are not good.


I really want to believe this completely, but I wish there was more up front transparency from the companies for their customers. 

On a more curious note, I was reading through the forum last week, and I remember reading an old post of yours regarding corn (sorry for some reason I'm all about bringing up old posts on the forum today, I hope you don't mind).



> Corn and it's many uses is one of the most studied food sources, making it actually easy to evaluate and take a stand.
> 
> Here's some quick pointers. I'll list some negatives first, the ones important for my NO take on corn products ;
> 
> - Corn Gluten Meal have in study after study been shown to be inferior to Meat Meal and Chicken Meal. Study, There are many more
> 
> - As a main ingredient and in corn meal form it ads tons of unnecessary carbs
> 
> - Our corn can no longer reproduce and have also become a cultigen
> 
> - GMO everywhere you look
> 
> - Fat cells duplicate in reaction to corn lectins. Science on how corn lectins affect dogs is scarce but I do not like it. Info on lectins
> 
> Now, you can make some cases for corn too (personally I look away tho) ;
> 
> - Ultra low ash source and urine acidifier
> 
> - Can balance calcium/ phosphor levels
> 
> - As corn gluten meal it is low in carbs
> 
> - Cheap, many can't even pay $1/lbs for food. Or, if you have lots of high performance dogs it is a cheap source of energy
> 
> If I was forced to pick one corn ingredient in my food I would go for corn gluten meal in smaller amounts. Not as the first or second source of proteins. Funny how things work, Blue Buffalo are all over my TV with ads ridiculing corn gluten meal. What they should do instead is attack corn in general. But I guess that wouldn't resonate as well with their target audience. Marketing 101, find something scientific sounding and attack it even if it makes less sense than attacking the real problem.
> 
> Personally I don't want corn in my foods, my reasoning is both scientific and social. Would your average dog suffer from smaller amounts of corn gluten meal in the diet? Probably not but I choose to make the better choice imho.


http://dogfoodchat.com/forum/general-dog-discussion/11717-another-article-about-all-mighty-corn.html

I was curious to know if you still felt the same way about corn and if not, I was wondering what changed your scientific and social reasoning?


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## DaViking

Roo said:


> I really want to believe this completely, but I wish there was more up front transparency from the companies for their customers


In the end it is the results that matters. I never have any problems getting more in depth answers from various manufacturers when I ask for instance about protein distribution and similar.



Roo said:


> On a more curious note, I was reading through the forum last week, and I remember reading an old post of yours regarding corn (sorry for some reason I'm all about bringing up old posts on the forum today, I hope you don't mind).
> 
> 
> http://dogfoodchat.com/forum/general-dog-discussion/11717-another-article-about-all-mighty-corn.html
> 
> I was curious to know if you still felt the same way about corn and if not, I was wondering what changed your scientific and social reasoning?


I still stand by what I said there, was a very good post in fact. The only thing I probably should moderate is the part about lectins, it's controversial, not very cut 'n dry science, and corn in an everyday formula. Everywhere I post anything about corn I usually add something like "Is it the best thing since sliced bread? No it's not" simply because there are other ingredients that can be used to achieve a great formula. But that doesn't exclude formulas who contain various corn products from also potentially being great formulas. It's this baseless badgering of corn I want to address, not to prove it's the bee's knees of ingredients. Standing up for corn doesn't imply I recommend feeding a corn *based* diet. I'll speak up against any ignorant claims that comes with no support, be it against corn or raw feeding. I don't care, I just hate unfounded gibberish regardless.

The socio-economic part of what I said I definitely still stand behind. Always did, but that does not have anything to do with nutrition. Have I become more open to corn in maintenance formulas? Absolutely after experiencing great results first hand. Was it the corn that made the formula great? Maybe more so that the entire formulation was damn good, where modest amounts of corn played it's part. Except for a cpl of points, all in all what I feel today isn't that different from what I said in that post. So, from that post up to today I learned that 1) the science behind lectins are controversial and 2) corn in well formulated maintenance formulas is not bad at all but I still want it from an EU cert. plant/line to preserve at least part of my social conscience.


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## Roo

> In the end it is the results that matters. I never have any problems getting more in depth answers from various manufacturers when I ask for instance about protein distribution and similar.


I know, I'm just being picky and saying it would be nice if I didn't have to ask, if all the info was already listed up front on their website or something (I know some companies are more transparent than others, with this already). LOL



> I still stand by what I said there, was a good post. The only thing I probably should moderate is the part about lectins, it's controversial, not very cut 'n dry science, and corn in an everyday formula. Everywhere I post anything about corn I usually add something like "Is it the best thing since sliced bread? No it's not" simply because there are other ingredients that can be used to achieve a great formula. But that doesn't exclude formulas who contain various corn products from also potentially being great formulas. It's this baseless badgering of corn I want to address, not to prove it's the bee's knees of ingredients. Standing up for corn doesn't imply I recommend feeding a corn *based* diet. I'll speak up against any ignorant claims that comes with no support, be it against corn or raw feeding. I don't care, I just hate unfounded gibberish regardless.
> 
> The socio-economic part of what I said I definitely still stand behind. Always did, but that does not have anything to do with nutrition. Have I become more open to corn in maintenance formulas? Absolutely after experiencing great results first hand. Was it the corn that made the formula great? Maybe more so that the entire formulation was damn good, where modest amounts of corn played it's part. Except for a cpl of points, all in all what I feel today isn't that different from what I said in that post. So, from that post up to today I learned that 1) the science behind lectins are controversial and 2) corn in well formulated maintenance formulas is not bad at all but I still want it from an EU cert. plant/line.


Thank you so much for your in depth reply and explanation. I completely agree with you on the point that there are other ingredients you can use. I was hoping you would address lectins, because in researching it I had found similar controversial information that left me on the fence about it. I'm still not sure what to think about it now.


----------



## DaViking

Roo said:


> I know, I'm just being picky and saying it would be nice if I didn't have to ask, if all the info was already listed up front on their website or something (I know some companies are more transparent than others, with this already). LOL
> 
> 
> 
> Thank you so much for your in depth reply and explanation. I completely agree with you on the point that there are other ingredients you can use. I was hoping you would address lectins, because in researching it I had found similar controversial information that left me on the fence about it. I'm still not sure what to think about it now.


I did find some more on lectins but not all of it made sense or seemed to apply. I couldn't find the links right now but I know I have them somewhere. Might be on another laptop. I'll check for them.


----------



## tem_sat

Kibblelady said:


> My mini Dachie right now has some dry skin, why? I don't know...she eats so little. So I am supplementing her with a teaspoon of corn oil per day. I have always done this and it has always fixed the problem.


Depending upon the size of your DachSie (with an S), I would toss the corn oil and go with a "rotation" of 1/2 large raw egg scrambled, 1/2 can of sardines packed in water without added salt, 1/2 to 1 teaspoon of organic cold pressed coconut oil, a good pinch of seed mix (see http://dogfoodchat.com/forum/barf-alternative-feeding/12094-seed-mix.html), and finally, a coconut oil rub down about once per week.

Also a Doxie who is not ravenous would concern me a bit.


----------



## Kibblelady

MollyWoppy said:


> This is what I don't understand.
> In Dr Tim's Premium All Natural Pet Foods website, on each and everyone of his foods it says this:
> 'To minimize allergic reaction, corn and soy products are not used in (insert name of food).'
> Call me stupid, but it suggests to me that Dr Tim thinks corn may not be such a good ingredient.


This is called "marketing" and appeals to those who believe that corn and soy are "bad." Is it wrong? No. They are just going along with something that cannot be fought that well.


----------



## Kibblelady

DaViking said:


> Standing up for corn doesn't imply I recommend feeding a corn *based* diet. I'll speak up against any ignorant claims that comes with no support, be it against corn or raw feeding. I don't care, I just hate unfounded gibberish regardless.
> 
> The socio-economic part of what I said I definitely still stand behind. Always did, but that does not have anything to do with nutrition. Have I become more open to corn in maintenance formulas? Absolutely after experiencing great results first hand. Was it the corn that made the formula great? Maybe more so that the entire formulation was damn good, where modest amounts of corn played it's part. Except for a cpl of points, all in all what I feel today isn't that different from what I said in that post. So, from that post up to today I learned that 1) the science behind lectins are controversial and 2) corn in well formulated maintenance formulas is not bad at all but I still want it from an EU cert. plant/line to preserve at least part of my social conscience.


I have to second this. I also frequently stand up for corn...but the diet I feed does not contain corn.... it is the myths and rumors that I cannot stand. There are many ingredients effected by this hysteria


----------



## Kibblelady

tem_sat said:


> Depending upon the size of your DachSie (with an S), I would toss the corn oil and go with a "rotation" of 1/2 large raw egg scrambled, 1/2 can of sardines packed in water without added salt, 1/2 to 1 teaspoon of organic cold pressed coconut oil, a good pinch of seed mix (see http://dogfoodchat.com/forum/barf-alternative-feeding/12094-seed-mix.html), and finally, a coconut oil rub down about once per week.
> 
> Also a Doxie who is not ravenous would concern me a bit.


 Na, I think I will just give her the corn oil rather than all of that for a little dry skin. I have always used corn oil for this and it always works.

There is nothing wrong with Abby, the food I am feeding is very nutritious and she is IMO filling her caloric needs possibly before her omega needs simply due to her small size. Really come to think of it none of my wiener dogs are "ravenous" at meal time, with treats sure lol but not at meal time. We have one that is overweight, my son's dog, she was overfed a few years back and we are still working on getting her down to where the others are, she is getting there  Abby weighs 10lbs, feeding a dog that small can be difficult sometimes with a kibble IMO as many times the amount she eats is just not enough to meet all the needs she has (even if a food is "all-life-stages") sometimes they just need some supplementation. I know what I am doing but thank you for the suggestion :thumb:Our two males weigh 16lbs and unfortunately Jonbie is close to 20lbs but she was more so we are making headway.


----------



## Sheltielover25

Kayota said:


> IMO GMO isn't that big of a deal after having learned about it in depth in my microbiology course.


LOL So you're not concerned about ingesting something that has no studies done on the long-term effects? That's what the're teaching you in school? LOL Then again, the ones funding your school are the same ones pumping out the GMO so not surprising. Sentences like that are what reallllllly makes me distrust anyone in the medical field...


----------



## naturalfeddogs

Kibblelady said:


> Na, I think I will just give her the corn oil rather than all of that for a little dry skin. I have always used corn oil for this and it always works.
> 
> There is nothing wrong with Abby, the food I am feeding is very nutritious and she is IMO filling her caloric needs possibly before her omega needs simply due to her small size. Really come to think of it none of my wiener dogs are "ravenous" at meal time, with treats sure lol but not at meal time. We have one that is overweight, my son's dog, she was overfed a few years back and we are still working on getting her down to where the others are, she is getting there  Abby weighs 10lbs, feeding a dog that small can be difficult sometimes with a kibble IMO as many times the amount she eats is just not enough to meet all the needs she has (even if a food is "all-life-stages") sometimes they just need some supplementation. I know what I am doing but thank you for the suggestion :thumb:Our two males weigh 16lbs and unfortunately Jonbie is close to 20lbs but she was more so we are making headway.


Why not just use salmon oil for omegas? It's a higher quality oil, and is better used by the dogs body to help dry skin. I know many years ago I used corn oil as well, and while it seemed to help the coat some, my dogs were still itchy and had flaky patches of dry skin especially in the winter. Once I went to fish oil I never had another problem. At the time I didn't even realize just how many problems my dogs were actually still having until I switched oils.


----------



## tem_sat

naturalfeddogs said:


> Why not just use salmon oil for omegas? It's a higher quality oil, and is better used by the dogs body to help dry skin. I know many years ago I used corn oil as well, and while it seemed to help the coat some, my dogs were still itchy and had flaky patches of dry skin especially in the winter. Once I went to fish oil I never had another problem. At the time I didn't even realize just how many problems my dogs were actually still having until I switched oils.


I will also add that my Doxie sleeps next to me (read: sticks to me) every night. His fur texture is like buttery soft silk velvet with the suggestions I had made previously. I cannot recommend them enough.


----------



## Unosmom

Being a pet-sitter the last 12+ years, I've dealt with a lot of animals. One thing that stands out is animals fed grocery store corn based food stink to high heavens, dogs especially. Certain breeds like labs in particular, in addition to the smell have greasy coats which leaves weird residue on my hands when I pet them. I guess the last 5-6 years or so since I've been researching more on nutrition and recommending better quality foods, a lot of people that switch to the better brands, grain free in particular have a tremendous change in those 2 areas. The stink usually disappears within a week and the coat condition takes 2-3 weeks to turn around. 
I just know when I walk into someone's house and their dog smells like cornchips, they're probably feeding something like beneful, especially if it's accompanied by colored turds. 

I also think animal fats/oils are superior to plant oils. It's been known for a while that an average american diet is highly deficient in omega 3 fatty acids due to our consumption of grain based, processed food loaded with omega 6 and 9, creating fatty acid ratio imbalance. Considering that pet food closely resembles our eating habits, I have no doubt that the same issues that plague humans, affect our pets as well.


----------



## NewYorkDogue

Kibblelady said:


> Na, I think I will just give her the corn oil rather than all of that for a little dry skin. I have always used corn oil for this and it always works.
> .


I had always believed that certain of the PUFA oils were considered inflammatory. So I did a quick search, and found this at the top of the list: The Daily Lipid: Corn Oil, Not "High-Fat," Causes Inflammation

Note: mice, like dogs, can produce their own vitamin C. Their stores were depleted after consuming the corn oil.

FWIW...


----------



## naturalfeddogs

NewYorkDogue said:


> I had always believed that certain of the PUFA oils were considered inflammatory. So I did a quick search, and found this at the top of the list: The Daily Lipid: Corn Oil, Not "High-Fat," Causes Inflammation
> 
> Note: mice, like dogs, can produce their own vitamin C. Their stores were depleted after consuming the corn oil.
> 
> FWIW...


Corn oil is an inflammatory in horses, so I would think it would be the same in dogs as well.


----------



## Kibblelady

tem_sat said:


> I will also add that my Doxie sleeps next to me (read: sticks to me) every night. His fur texture is like buttery soft silk velvet with the suggestions I had made previously. I cannot recommend them enough.


We have four in our bed every night lol e gads, tight space, but we love it. The dog in question, Abby, has very velvety fur, no problem with that, just a touch of dry skin I noted, nothing serious or deserving of a lot of attention. I just mentioned it I suppose for the sake of the thread. 

As to why the corn oil and not a fish as many others would do? I have an old school way of approaching this, I know linoleic acid is very important to a dog's skin (omega 6) but I also know dog's convert this to Alpha-linolenic acid (an omega 3). IMO she needs the linoliec and that is what I am giving her, a very good source of it as well.

Omega Fatty Acids: Sources, Effects, and Therapeutic Usesin Dogs


> Dull and Dry Hair Coats: Haircoats which are dull, brittle, and dry often respond to supplementation with essential fatty acids, especially LA. It has also been found that in some cases of seborrhea, there is a deficiency of LA in the skin. In these cases, supplements high in LA are useful. The addition of EPA and GLA is also beneficial in that it would help negate the release of AA from cells damaged because of this skin condition.


----------



## Kibblelady

Guys, as far as my dog... getting a small amount of corn oil in her food every day is *NOT* going to inflame some disease process...okay? I suspect due to her small amount of food at times her omegas may be "out of wack" and I'll act appropriately okay? BTW This is not common for her either, I just noticed it and do what I always do. Things have to be discussed in amounts, this is a problem in many discussions on nutritional boards. Linoleic acid is a must for dogs and ourselves... water can be poisonous is you drink too much of it. Amount is very important to these discussions.


----------



## Kibblelady

NewYorkDogue said:


> I had always believed that certain of the PUFA oils were considered inflammatory. So I did a quick search, and found this at the top of the list: The Daily Lipid: Corn Oil, Not "High-Fat," Causes Inflammation
> 
> Note: mice, like dogs, can produce their own vitamin C. Their stores were depleted after consuming the corn oil.
> 
> FWIW...


This is from that link



> According to a recent article on the _Science Daily _site, "High Fat Diet Increases Inflammation in the Mouse Colon," a November 2009 study published by researchers from Rockefeller University showed that a diet "high in fat and low in fiber, vitamin D and calcium" triggered an inflammatory process that could lead to cancer in the colons of laboratory mice




I am confused as to if we are still discussing my use of corn oil or overall corn usage in pet foods? In any event the comment above says high in fat, low in fiber, low vitamin D and calcium.... how is this the same in either my use of corn oil OR in kibbles?


----------



## Kibblelady

Unosmom said:


> Being a pet-sitter the last 12+ years, I've dealt with a lot of animals. One thing that stands out is animals fed grocery store corn based food stink to high heavens, dogs especially. Certain breeds like labs in particular, in addition to the smell have greasy coats which leaves weird residue on my hands when I pet them. I guess the last 5-6 years or so since I've been researching more on nutrition and recommending better quality foods, a lot of people that switch to the better brands, grain free in particular have a tremendous change in those 2 areas. The stink usually disappears within a week and the coat condition takes 2-3 weeks to turn around.
> I just know when I walk into someone's house and their dog smells like cornchips, they're probably feeding something like beneful, especially if it's accompanied by colored turds.
> 
> I also think animal fats/oils are superior to plant oils. It's been known for a while that an average american diet is highly deficient in omega 3 fatty acids due to our consumption of grain based, processed food loaded with omega 6 and 9, creating fatty acid ratio imbalance. Considering that pet food closely resembles our eating habits, I have no doubt that the same issues that plague humans, affect our pets as well.


I see yo0ur points Uno but I think the people taking the time to be on this board are different. I know I am. Diet has always been very important to me, it was instilled in me by my mother and grandmother. Making things from "scratch" was a joy all my life... buying something in a box or bag was usually for time as any one else, but it was not used on an every day bases. I also balance my meals and my children's meals, well child..I have one here at home lol She is a picky eater though and drives me insane lol

I have feed foods including corn over the years and did not notice some smell to my dogs.... but, I did use higher quality foods.


----------



## NewYorkDogue

Kibblelady said:


> This is from that link
> 
> 
> 
> I am confused as to if we are still discussing my use of corn oil or overall corn usage in pet foods?[/FONT] In any event the comment above says high in fat, low in fiber, low vitamin D and calcium.... how is this the same in either my use of corn oil OR in kibbles?


The purpose of the article was to show the flaw in the study; to make an over-arching conclusion as to the "high fat" component of the diet without digging further to show that..

"However, the fat used in the study came entirely from corn oil." (From paragraph 2)

The discussion in the thread came around to a question about the TYPES of fats/oils... and why possibly corn oil may actually be inflammatory (thus causes more problems than it should).

I posted it to add more information. I try to keep an open mind... especially when it comes to my dog's health and well-being.

But, truly, if your dog is doing swimmingly on the added corn oil....then keep on with it.


----------



## Kibblelady

NewYorkDogue said:


> The purpose of the article was to show the flaw in the study; to make an over-arching conclusion as to the "high fat" component of the diet without digging further to show that..
> 
> "However, the fat used in the study came entirely from corn oil." (From paragraph 2)
> 
> The discussion in the thread came around to a question about the TYPES of fats/oils... and why possibly corn oil may actually be inflammatory (thus causes more problems than it should).
> 
> I posted it to add more information. I try to keep an open mind... especially when it comes to my dog's health and well-being.
> 
> But, truly, if your dog is doing swimmingly on the added corn oil....then keep on with it.


Okay, I understand.

* Actually wanted to add, why is it worded that "corn oil causes more problems than it should", why is this not directed at the amino acids that can be the problem when in high amounts rather than labeling it to corn itself? Does that make sense?


----------



## monster'sdad

skadoosh said:


> Corn as an ingredient in dog food... why is it so bad? Does anyone have any proof or literature or simply anectdotes? (I'm not pro corn nor am I against it).
> I have been hearing more and more of people turning away from grain inclusive foods to grain free-- which simply means another "filler", whether that be potatoes or lentils or beans. What are the significant differences? Are there actually any? Which one is better or worse? I would love some info on this.
> 
> 
> I also wonder what the difference is between scavengers and obligate carnivores. I may need to split this thread. Please let me know if I should and I will


Everything that is posted on dog food forums about corn is completely false. Everything from digestibility to allergies to how much protein is in foods with corn. Not one person that trashes corn can provide any scientific evidence. Not one shred.

Corn is not a filler by any stretch of the imagination. If you asked any PHD over a few shots of tequila they would say brown rice and corn are better than any potato or legume.

Yellow corn has three times the antioxidants as broccoli, the starch is 100% digestible and the protein 90% digestible. Fish is less than 70%. There are countless studies that put corn at about 2% of real food allergies. Those are facts.


----------



## whiteleo

monster'sdad said:


> Everything that is posted on dog food forums about corn is completely false. Everything from digestibility to allergies to how much protein is in foods with corn. Not one person that trashes corn can provide any scientific evidence. Not one shred.
> 
> Corn is not a filler by any stretch of the imagination. If you asked any PHD over a few shots of tequila they would say brown rice and corn are better than any potato or legume.
> 
> Yellow corn has three times the antioxidants as broccoli, the starch is 100% digestible and the protein 90% digestible. Fish is less than 70%. There are countless studies that put corn at about 2% of real food allergies. Those are facts.


Then please do tell Monster's dad, why then when you add in corn to any dog food do the sh*t piles go from tiny to huge, is that because it is so digestible?


----------



## Tobi

monster'sdad said:


> Everything that is posted on dog food forums about corn is completely false. Everything from digestibility to allergies to how much protein is in foods with corn. Not one person that trashes corn can provide any scientific evidence. Not one shred.
> 
> Corn is not a filler by any stretch of the imagination. If you asked any PHD over a few shots of tequila they would say brown rice and corn are better than any potato or legume.
> 
> Yellow corn has three times the antioxidants as broccoli, the starch is 100% digestible and the protein 90% digestible. Fish is less than 70%. There are countless studies that put corn at about 2% of real food allergies. Those are facts.


If they are facts you can easily cite your sources then?

op2:


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## magicre

:usa::usa::usa::usa::usa::usa:


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## monster'sdad

It is called "gelatinization". Once corn is ground and cooked it is virtually 100% digestible. 

The Use of Sorghum and Corn as Alternatives to Rice in Dog Foods

You will see that corn @ 95% is essentially as digestible as rice. 

Antioxidants:

For Cancer prevention, Whole Cooked Corn Has More Antioxidants 

You can Google the Cornell study if you wish.

Allergies:

Susan Wynn PHD

"If dogs have the genetic predisposition to develop food allergies, they can become allergic to certain foods. A recent review of 7 studies indicates that dogs are most commonly allergic to the following foods (in descending order): beef, dairy, wheat, egg, chicken, lamb/mutton, soy, pork, rabbit and fish. In cats, the most common allergens are beef, dairy, fish, lamb, poultry and barley/wheat (in equal numbers), egg and rabbit in equal numbers." 

Does anyone see corn? No. By the way, Susan Wynn is on the Advisory Board of Natures Variety.

Protein:

As far as protein goes, yellow corn has a maximum of 5% protein, so even if the whole bag was corn the maximum protein for the food could only be 5%. When you actually understand the details you see that corn cannot provide that much protein in a good quality food.

You can believe what you want, but I suggest reality.

There is not one negative point about corn that can be backed up with real science. Go ahead and try.


----------



## shellbell

Again, I am not saying there is or isn't anything inherently wrong with corn (well I guess I would have to say I don't think it is something a carnivore like a dog would actually eat), but the problem arises with the way it is harvested/stored/handled, and so many recalls seem to be attributed to mycotoxins (most likely linked to corn) and that alone is reason to be leary of it.


----------



## Tobi

monster'sdad said:


> It is called "gelatinization". Once corn is ground and cooked it is virtually 100% digestible.
> 
> The Use of Sorghum and Corn as Alternatives to Rice in Dog Foods
> 
> You will see that corn @ 95% is essentially as digestible as rice.
> 
> Antioxidants:
> 
> For Cancer prevention, Whole Cooked Corn Has More Antioxidants
> 
> You can Google the Cornell study if you wish.
> 
> Allergies:
> 
> Susan Wynn PHD
> 
> "If dogs have the genetic predisposition to develop food allergies, they can become allergic to certain foods. A recent review of 7 studies indicates that dogs are most commonly allergic to the following foods (in descending order): beef, dairy, wheat, egg, chicken, lamb/mutton, soy, pork, rabbit and fish. In cats, the most common allergens are beef, dairy, fish, lamb, poultry and barley/wheat (in equal numbers), egg and rabbit in equal numbers."
> 
> Does anyone see corn? No. By the way, Susan Wynn is on the Advisory Board of Natures Variety.
> 
> Protein:
> 
> As far as protein goes, yellow corn has a maximum of 5% protein, so even if the whole bag was corn the maximum protein for the food could only be 5%. When you actually understand the details you see that corn cannot provide that much protein in a good quality food.
> 
> You can believe what you want, but I suggest reality.
> 
> There is not one negative point about corn that can be backed up with real science. Go ahead and try.


This quote from your link says it's less digestible... 


> The nutrient digestibilities of the corn and sorghum diets were lower compared with that of the rice diet


From the study... so essentially, corn is good for dogs because it's digestible if it's completely pulverized for hours on end in a processing facility? makes perfect sense.. why not feed something that is 100% digestible in it's raw natural state? oh, because it's not digestible that way. 

Here is the big picture though, this corn, no matter how much it's processed is likely GMO (about 80% of us grown corn), and if i won't eat gmo corn i sure has heck wouldn't recommend anybody feed a "corn inclusive" meal to their beloved pet.

The cancer prevention link has no basis in animal nutrition. As well as, all the cancer fighting miracle properties corn has... being GMO which they likely are... can cause adverse effects of the liver and kidneys, so i suppose you can just be free of cancer and suffer kidney failure instead.



> We therefore conclude that our data strongly suggests that these GM maize varieties induce a state of hepatorenal toxicity. This can be due to the new pesticides (herbicide or insecticide) present specifically in each type of GM maize, although unintended metabolic effects due to the mutagenic properties of the GM transformation process cannot be excluded


 AKA Renal failure.

A link to the study. 

A Comparison of the Effects of Three GM Corn Varieties on Mammalian Health


----------



## magicre

:usa::usa::usa::usa::usa:


----------



## Kayota

Sheltielover25 said:


> LOL So you're not concerned about ingesting something that has no studies done on the long-term effects? That's what the're teaching you in school? LOL Then again, the ones funding your school are the same ones pumping out the GMO so not surprising. Sentences like that are what reallllllly makes me distrust anyone in the medical field...


Didn't notice this until now... How rude... Way to ostracize a possible future raw-promoting holistic vet... Thanks  I don't like any corn and I stated as much...


----------



## DaViking

whiteleo said:


> Then please do tell Monster's dad, why then when you add in corn to any dog food do the sh*t piles go from tiny to huge, is that because it is so digestible?


That's simply not true as a general statement. Last time we did exactly that, went from an expensive grain free formula to a less expensive corn and beet pulp inclusive classic type of formula, the poop was reduced to less than 50% of that of the GF formula. What you say goes against everything we know after decades of research, studies and real life use. The only time what you say might be true is when you see the "result" of a really bad formulation sold @ bargain basement prices.


----------



## KittyKat

DaViking said:


> That's simply not true as a general statement. Last time we did exactly that, went from an expensive grain free formula to a less expensive corn and beet pulp inclusive classic type of formula, the poop was reduced to less than 50% of that of the GF formula. What you say goes against everything we know after decades of research, studies and real life use. The only time what you say might be true is when you see the "result" of a really bad formulation sold @ bargain basement prices.


I noticed a huge change when switching from Royal Canin (this is what the breeder gave us - puppy formulation, I think it was medium sized.... they have just way too many formulas...) to Orijen puppy... poops went from big and stinky to 'small' and not so smelly. When feeding Royal Canin i actually would run away when our dog would poop ... upwind. If you went downhill you were liable to pass out under those noxious fumes. She also pooped less on Orijen.

I put small in quotations as I didn't know what 'small' really was until i switched to raw.


----------



## DaViking

Tobi said:


> From the study... so essentially, corn is good for dogs because it's digestible if it's completely pulverized for hours on end in a processing facility? makes perfect sense.. why not feed something that is 100% digestible in it's raw natural state? oh, because it's not digestible that way.


What is kibble? Its one big processed thingy. Please stop with the meaningless references to raw ingredients all the time. You can't make kibble without processing the heck out of everything, end of story. It has no bearing on anything here and will just take the discussion where it doesn't belong.



Tobi said:


> Here is the big picture though, this corn, no matter how much it's processed is likely GMO (about 80% of us grown corn), and if i won't eat gmo corn i sure has heck wouldn't recommend anybody feed a "corn inclusive" meal to their beloved pet.


I am smarter than "the big picture" If it's a big issue get a  formula with certified non gmo corn (just one example). It's really not that hard and if it means that much to you I would assume having to spend some time digging up non gmo alternatives wouldn't matter that much. But in the end you probably don't need a corn inclusive formula anyway since the alternatives are plentiful so digging up non gmo alternatives is probably not worth the time.


----------



## DaViking

KittyKat said:


> I noticed a huge change when switching from Royal Canin (this is what the breeder gave us - puppy formulation, I think it was medium sized.... they have just way too many formulas...) to Orijen puppy... poops went from big and stinky to 'small' and not so smelly. When feeding Royal Canin i actually would run away when our dog would poop ... upwind. If you went downhill you were liable to pass out under those noxious fumes. She also pooped less on Orijen.
> 
> I put small in quotations as I didn't know what 'small' really was until i switched to raw.


The world isn't uniform or cut'n dry and thank god for that. We have a raw feeder in our training group. Her Manchester' poop are just marginally smaller than Chips' poop when he ate the corn inclusive food. The only difference is the consistency, it's very dense and hard and must be a pain in the a**, literally, to push out 

Evaluating anything in months 1 to 24 is very difficult.


----------



## DaViking

magicre said:


> i don't need to back up or prove to you.
> 
> nothing i say or show you would ever convince you that corn does not fit what my dogs require for nutrition.
> 
> 
> it's fine with me that you feed your dogs corn, in whatever form it is.
> 
> my dogs eat animal proteins as their physiology and anatomy deem appropriate.
> 
> i have pretty pictures to back me up....and descriptive words that describe the physiology of their systems.....


This is called discussing for the sake of discussing. Nothing of this is part of what is discussed here, corn as an ingredient in processed dog food. You can just adapt your arguments to fit pretty much any non animal ingredient in kibble and there you go, what you say isn't specific for corn, it's really just another opinion against processed food.


----------



## magicre

:usa::usa::usa::usa::usa:


----------



## Tobi

DaViking said:


> What is kibble? Its one big processed thingy. Please stop with the meaningless references to raw ingredients all the time. You can't make kibble without processing the heck out of everything, end of story. It has no bearing on anything here and will just take the discussion where it doesn't belong.


Obviously kibble is super processed... what else could it be. Corn takes more processing than most other ingredients to even make it halfway digestible, i feed my dog brocoli, kale, carrots all of the like all the time, in their raw form, and they are "mostly" digested, if i was go give him a handful of corn, it would come out like mine does... undigested.. in its NATURAL RAW form... don't worry i'm not forcing raw meat feeding into the thread! lmfao
Assuming i'm making a reference to raw feeding huh? well, raw can mean raw vegetation as well, I suppose i should have clarified so you didn't go on the defensive :wink: I wasn't taking the discussion anywhere it didn't belong, don't assume.
Everything i said, that you quoted, was about corn... and nothing else.


DaViking said:


> I am smarter than "the big picture" If it's a big issue get a  formula with certified non gmo corn (just one example). It's really not that hard and if it means that much to you I would assume having to spend some time digging up non gmo alternatives wouldn't matter that much. But in the end you probably don't need a corn inclusive formula anyway since the alternatives are plentiful so digging up non gmo alternatives is probably not worth the time.


Nobody questioned your intelligence, you seem defensive... How many pet owners even know or care about gmo foods, or think that they could be inclusive in their or their pets food? But... those formulas you're linking are a minority in the "big picture". :thumb:


----------



## DaViking

Tobi said:


> raw can mean raw vegetation as well, I suppose i should have clarified so you didn't go on the defensive
> Everything i said, that you quoted, was about corn... and nothing else.


Well, the thing is, no one else here is mixing the topics of raw and processed corn except you. In it's various processed forms it is highly digestible; every other claim you make in reference to raw unprocessed corn is simply void here. It's processed as found in kibble.
I am not on the defensive it's just annoying to see how fast ppl can go off topic if that makes their arguments more valid or pack more punch.

oh btw, try puncturing the raw kernel with your tooth or something before it goes down the hatch 




Tobi said:


> How many pet owners even know or care about gmo foods, or think that they could be inclusive in their or their pets food? But... those formulas you're linking are a minority in the "big picture". :thumb:


Yes, they probably are the minority but maybe not such a big minority as you think it is. Anyway, that's not the point. The point is that for those who care about such things there are alternatives if you are willing to spend some time researching and looking for them. And my guess is that those ppl already put quite a bit of effort into researching all kinds of food and other everyday items simply because it's part of their lifestyle or feel better.

... and stop it with the winks and the lmfao's, makes you sound younger and less experienced than I think you are. Everyone can wink all day long, doesn't make anything more correct or right.


----------



## magicre

:usa::usa::usa::usa::usa:


----------



## Tobi

DaViking said:


> Well, the thing is, no one else here is mixing the topics of raw and processed corn except you. In it's various processed forms it is highly digestible; every other claim you make in reference to raw unprocessed corn is simply void here. It's processed as found in kibble.
> I am not on the defensive it's just annoying to see how fast ppl can go off topic if that makes their arguments more valid or pack more punch.
> 
> oh btw, try puncturing the raw kernel with your tooth or something before it goes down the hatch


It doesn't matter, the topic is "CORN" not super processed kibble corn, or raw corn, or what have you, it really doesn't matter what form, if somebody doesn't like the product that is their choice. I don't even really use it in our home let alone feed it in any processed "highly digestible" way. 
Thanks for the tip on eating! i'm not sure i would have figured it out without your help! :thumb:

If i was on the outside looking in, you'd look defensive, or like you had a vendetta.... no need for attitude. There wasn't anything off topic to "pack more of a punch".



DaViking said:


> Yes, they probably are the minority but maybe not such a big minority as you think it is. Anyway, that's not the point. The point is that for those who care about such things there are alternatives if you are willing to spend some time researching and looking for them. And my guess is that those ppl already put quite a bit of effort into researching all kinds of food and other everyday items simply because it's part of their lifestyle or feel better.
> 
> ... and stop it with the winks and the lmfao's, makes you sound younger and less experienced than I think you are. Everyone can wink all day long, doesn't make anything more correct or right.


I guess i don't understand your plight with this last part... 

And i can :wink: :rofl: op2: as much as I want, I don't care what age you believe me to be, emotes are emotes, i like them, if you don't don't read what i post, nobody claimed it made them any more correct or right... just to clarify.

Good day, i won't be responding to you any longer. :wink:


----------



## DaViking

magicre said:


> da viking, i think i am bothered by the use of corn. period. regardless of how it's presented and all of its wonderful properties...i don't see them as wonderful at all....


Fine. No one claims it's "wonderful". Niagara Falls is wonderful, corn is a food and not even close to being wonderful, unless it's popped with loads of chilli-cheddar :smile:



magicre said:


> i should think there is another product out there that could be used in place of corn....even if it's made into a digestible form....


Yes, but that shouldn't exclude corn as an ingredient because of urban myths and internet lore. Also, why?



magicre said:


> corn has more sugar in it than others.....


More is always relative. 100g of cooked drained yellow corn contains 25g of carbohydrates, of that 3g is sugar. The caloric carb:fatsrotein ratio of corn is 82:10:8



magicre said:


> and corn does pass right through the body


Chew your whole raw corn and you'll find that statement to be not so true :smile:


----------



## magicre

:usa::usa::usa::usa::usa:


----------



## DaViking

Tobi said:


> It doesn't matter, the topic is "CORN" not super processed kibble corn, or raw corn, or what have you, it really doesn't matter what form, if somebody doesn't like the product that is their choice. I don't even really use it in our home let alone feed it in any processed "highly digestible" way.
> Thanks for the tip on eating! i'm not sure i would have figured it out without your help! :thumb:
> 
> If i was on the outside looking in, you'd look defensive, or like you had a vendetta.... no need for attitude. There wasn't anything off topic to "pack more of a punch".
> 
> 
> 
> I guess i don't understand your plight with this last part...
> 
> And i can :wink: :rofl: op2: as much as I want, I don't care what age you believe me to be, emotes are emotes, i like them, if you don't don't read what i post, nobody claimed it made them any more correct or right... just to clarify.
> 
> Good day, i won't be responding to you any longer. :wink:


Sure, but do expect to get reactions, some will call it rude, confrontational, belittling and immature, but by all means carry on.

I don't know who comes across with more emotions or seem defensive or what. But regardless, have a nice day.


----------



## DaViking

magicre said:


> internet lore? really?
> 
> urban myth?
> 
> corn is not a mysterious product. information is available everywhere...even in written form.
> 
> it is, however, a product that should be discussed when feeding ourselves and our dogs....and if it is an inappropriate ingredient, then there must be another one to take its place...and, that's all i was asking.
> 
> snarky was not necessary.


Yes, the anti corn "movement" is mostly based on myths and lore spreading through internet, making it's way into dog parks all over the place. (I am talking in terms of nutrition, not social aspects)

Monster's Dad, kibblelady, me and many many others have posted links to countless peer reviewed studies of all kinds that are really not contested by anyone with minimal authority on the subject. Now, you can dig up research that raises concerns about anything we eat.

Wasn't snarky meant at all. Smiles all around :smile: What was snarky about my reply to you above?


----------



## magicre

:usa::usa::usa::usa::usa::usa:


----------



## DaViking

magicre said:


> there is no point in contradicting or having a peer review war on corn.
> 
> there is no conspiracy about corn, nor is there internet lore or myth surrounding it.
> 
> corn is a food stuff.....its properties are easily found anywhere you look.
> 
> it's not myth that people should not eat it nor should animals.....it's a medical certainty.
> 
> your tone is snarky and i'm done with this conversation....mainly because i tried to ask you a question and figure out a product that would do what corn does but not be corn...as it is abrasive and really not suited for dogs nor humans....and your answer was all about internet lore and urban myths.
> 
> so, have fun with your coffee shop.....and i'll go back to my medical and nutrition books and mythical internet sites.


No contradicting, you haven't provided anything.

Wow, lighten up. Rice, Barley, Rye, Oats, Lentils, Peas, Potato, Tapioca. I wasn't aware you wanted me to spell out the various alternatives to corn products in dog food.

Your claims is crazy imho. I don't know which medical and nutrition books you are reading. Why ask me for alternatives to corn then, you have books, surely the alternatives must be in there. I enjoy corn on the cob and get lots of nutrients from them. So does dogs from various corn products. Please show us the "medical certainty" about corn and how no one should eat it. I am mostly interested in dog nutrition though.


----------



## Tobi

Corn is a Toxic Grain for Dogs Cats and Humans

op2: This is probably just internet lore, and sensationalism.


----------



## DaViking

Tobi said:


> Corn is a Toxic Grain for Dogs Cats and Humans
> 
> op2: This is probably just internet lore, and sensationalism.


Well, in that case I wont read it then...

edit; that's one of my old links re. lectins. I posted that one last year I think. :lol:
Nothing cut 'n dry about that one my friend, and it also contains factual errors. I have cited DogtorJ before, not doing that anymore, heh.


----------



## DaneMama

Blah blah blah...this old horse has been beaten enough? Dontcha think?


----------



## KittyKat

DaViking said:


> The world isn't uniform or cut'n dry and thank good for that. We have a raw feeder in our training group. Her Manchester' poop are just marginally smaller than Chips' poop when he ate the corn inclusive food. The only difference is the consistency, it's very dense and hard and must be a pain in the a**, literally, to push out
> 
> Evaluating anything in months 1 to 24 is very difficult.


True enough on the 1-24 month things. If everyone got the massive stinks that my dog did we would have to wear gas masks on a regular basis around cities. Post poopalyptic world? 

Much like how all humans have the same digestive system, we all have different needs. I can't eat delicious, sweet, tempting, oh so nice in bread gluten... but most everyone else can.

If that guys poop is that hard he just needs less bone in his diet... is it odd I want to see him poop? Could I walk up to someone and say "Excuse me good sir, but on this fine day I would most like to watch your dog shit so that I may examine it's fecal matter." and adjust my monocle? Likely not... might be a wee bit disturbing. 

XD


----------



## wolfsnaps88

You wear a monocle? 


LOL

I think its one of those "agree to disagree" moments. 




I love corn on the cob. 



That is all.


----------



## Sprocket

DaneMama said:


> Blah blah blah...this old horse has been beaten enough? Dontcha think?



Not quite enough.

This should help :biggrin:


:deadhorse::deadhorse::deadhorse::deadhorse::deadhorse::deadhorse:


----------



## naturalfeddogs

Sprocket said:


> Not quite enough.
> 
> This should help :biggrin:
> 
> 
> :deadhorse::deadhorse::deadhorse::deadhorse::deadhorse::deadhorse:


I know. I think enough is enough already.


----------



## DaViking




----------



## DaViking

wolfsnaps88 said:


> I love corn on the cob.
> 
> That is all.


Continue to enjoy corn on the cob. Of sweet corn only about 4% are GM crops :smile: ; in comparison 88% of the various US feed grade varieties are biotech crops. However, Monsanto is making another push at the sweet corn market this summer. Don't buy your corn on the cob from Walmart if you don't like GM stuff, that's all I'm saying.


----------



## KittyKat

DaViking said:


> Continue to enjoy corn on the cob. Of sweet corn only about 4% are GM crops :smile: ; in comparison 88% of the various US feed grade varieties are biotech crops. However, Monsanto is making another push at the sweet corn market this summer. Don't buy your corn on the cob from Walmart if you don't like GM stuff, that's all I'm saying.


I like getting mine from roadside farmers. There's one girl off #6 here that has some really nice stuff. 

... the drought this year hasn't been too kind to farmers though!

That Wal-Mart thing is rather disappointing, but unsurprising.


----------



## Sprocket

mmmm Corn on the cob, grilled with balsamic vinegar and parmesan cheese...delicious!


----------



## 6Goldens

Kibblelady said:


> As to why the corn oil and not a fish as many others would do? I have an old school way of approaching this, I know linoleic acid is very important to a dog's skin (omega 6) but I also know dog's convert this to Alpha-linolenic acid (an omega 3). IMO she needs the linoliec and that is what I am giving her, a very good source of it as well.


Where did you read that dogs can convert O6 to O3? Thanks.


----------



## Kibblelady

magicre said:


> internet lore? really?
> 
> urban myth?
> 
> corn is not a mysterious product. information is available everywhere...even in written form.


Yes, quite a lot of myth and lore like many dog product related ingredients etc ...


----------



## Kibblelady

Tobi said:


> Corn is a Toxic Grain for Dogs Cats and Humans
> 
> op2: This is probably just internet lore, and sensationalism.



I found this interesting to read but after a while of trying to match up claims with the actual cause and effect I am finding that the article is over simplifying many things  I am not saying it is "wrong" etc just that when a person writes an article with a certain goal they will write it to support that goal. In this case things IMO are being made to seem big that are small (such as the whole pellagra thing and the neurotoxin thing) The overuse of high fructose corn syrup and possible large amounts some people will consume does not make the grain corn bad...it makes that part that is being bastardized and overused bad and should be avoided, make sense?

As I have said before we can die from water intoxication.... is water bad then? When articles are written using extremes it does not do justice to those reading it looking for information.


----------



## Kibblelady

6Goldens said:


> Where did you read that dogs can convert O6 to O3? Thanks.


Lol...I have no idea...I do not know where I got that when I was writing that post to be honest  I was trying to find the reference for it as I do remember looking at that but please forgive me...very stressy time and *that is incorrect*. It is humans that do that not dogs or cats. I do not know what made me post that as I do know that people are opposite from our pets.... ugh color me embarrassed.


----------



## NewYorkDogue

Kibblelady said:


> Lol...I have no idea...I do not know where I got that when I was writing that post to be honest  I was trying to find the reference for it as I do remember looking at that but please forgive me...very stressy time and *that is incorrect*. It is humans that do that not dogs or cats. I do not know what made me post that as I do know that people are opposite from our pets.... ugh color me embarrassed.


Interesting. I had never heard of the human body being able to do that. I even did a search and found nothing. Do you have a reference or source for that info? 

Just curious! Thanks.


----------



## KittyKat

Tobi said:


> Corn is a Toxic Grain for Dogs Cats and Humans
> 
> op2: This is probably just internet lore, and sensationalism.


That is rather interesting - I hadn't heard about corn being neurotoxic. I'll have to do more research into that in September.


----------



## hund

Don't most mass farmed animals eat corn products? Unless they are grass fed or free range they are also eating corn. 
Would that effect the meat of the animals that most raw feeders feed their dogs?


----------



## magicre

:usa::usa::usa::usa::usa:


----------



## 6Goldens

hund said:


> Don't most mass farmed animals eat corn products? Unless they are grass fed or free range they are also eating corn.
> Would that effect the meat of the animals that most raw feeders feed their dogs?


Yes, more reason to supplement with Omega 3 to balance Omega 6 in the animal protein, although I assume most of the Omega 6 is destroyed in processing.


----------



## Liz

Yes it does which is why we are careful to add Omega 3 supplementation unless we are lucky enough to source grass fed and finished meat.


----------



## magicre

:usa::usa::usa::usa::usa:


----------



## colin

a reply to corn issue, this is a passage from the book canine and feline nutrition." corn gluten meal is the dried residue that remains after most of the starch,fiber,and germ-containing portions of the corn grain have been removed. As a protein source, corn gluten meal is relatively consistent in quality, containing aprox. 60% protein. This protein source is not as digestable as high-quality animal protein ingredients, but its protein is comparable to or more available than some meals and byproduct meals. It is deficient in the essential amino acids lysine, arginine, and tryptophan". this statement would lead me to belive that it is not as bad as some would say but i would not want it to be at the top of the ingredients list. colin


----------



## magicre

:usa::usa::usa::usa::usa:


----------



## DaViking

magicre said:


> this is a new one for me.
> 
> ingredients are written about and not just on the internet.....internet lore and myth....i don't understand this.
> 
> corn is not a myth. it is a real grain with a history and a progression through the ages.....what it is now is not what it was then....
> 
> information about corn is plentiful in libraries, the internet where things that were previously papered ink written are now digitalised.....where is the myth in putting information on the 'net?
> 
> i really wish one day we could have a discussion where internet lore and myth or urban legend is not used as a reason for something to be untrue.
> 
> sometimes a truth is a truth and modern corn is not it's great great grandmother's corn anymore.


magic; I think you are misunderstanding in what context ppl, including me, use the phrase "internet myths and lore" Of course corn is well documented everywhere, including the internet. It's one of the oldest foods around. The problem starts when enthusiastic extremists starts to convey their views and opinions as facts without any references to anything else than like-minded enthusiastic extremists who in turn reference others with similar views and so fort and so fort. Now you got your "internet myths and lore" spreading like wildfire to ppl who want to believe. Yes yes yes, I do realize you can dig up serious discussion and some studies here and there that question various aspects of corn but you can do that with pretty much any food. Nothing wrong with that, it brings us all forward, but it does not mean that corn becomes bad over night simply because someone discussed a subject that could be troublesome. If you feel all the bad aspects of corn is well documented on the websites you frequent I think you should start to share those sources instead of just offering your opinion in cryptic ways. My $0.02


----------



## magicre

:usa::usa::usa::usa::usa:


----------



## hund

I don't like the idea of corn because of the aflatoxin<<< that itself stops me from using a corn in a product. Otherwise I don't mind it as an ingredient as long as its not too far up the ingredient list.


----------



## DaViking

colin said:


> this statement would lead me to belive that it is not as bad as some would say but i would not want it to be at the top of the ingredients list. colin


Dang, a winner. You don't want a food where the bulk of the food comes from corn but used as a balance of energy and/or a balance of amino acids it is a good and cost effective alternative.


----------



## DaViking

hund said:


> I don't like the idea of corn because of the aflatoxin<<< that itself stops me from using a corn in a product. Otherwise I don't mind it as an ingredient as long as its not too far up the ingredient list.


The best manufacturers fingerprint their raw ingredients. If shipments are not validated and free of contaminants the entire delivery is rejected.


----------



## hund

DaViking said:


> The best manufacturers fingerprint their raw ingredients. If shipments are not validated and free of contaminants the entire delivery is rejected.


I don't know... if they knew the delivery was going to an animal food company as opposed to a human grade facility would they be as stringent?


----------



## danea

hund said:


> I don't like the idea of corn because of the aflatoxin<<< that itself stops me from using a corn in a product. Otherwise I don't mind it as an ingredient as long as its not too far up the ingredient list.


All the grains and legumes can be contaminated by aflatoxin, potatoes could contain solanine.
IMO the best way to avoid it (poisoning) is to choose a trustworthy company


----------



## DaViking

hund said:


> I don't know... if they knew the delivery was going to an animal food company as opposed to a human grade facility would they be as stringent?


I am not going to name names but if you do a swift google session you'll see that among the big brands one company/brand stand out as the bad boy with voluntary recalls after recalls due to aflatoxin levels. The rest of the big ones have understood you have to take safety serious and pumped millions into various safety measures like fingerprinting. Imo where you got to be extra cautions are with some of the big volume mid level brands and obscure value brands. Companies like Hills and Royal-Canin are very stringent and their big volume ingredients like rice, corn, wheat and barley for example are the same as you would find in a grocery store or used in processed human foods, class 1 and 2 grains.


----------



## DaViking

magicre said:


> corn just doesn't make the cut. like it or not, use it or not, there are ingredients out there which would be better suited for both man and beast.


Corn is a good alternative for a multitude of uses. "Doesn't make the cut" is a meaningless statement.
See, this is the elitist part right there. 1) if everyone took your lead and turned away from the use of corn we would all be up the creek within a very short time, and 2) I wish I could buy a GMC Yukon Denali to better protect my kids when driving on the crazy roads towards Toronto but I had to settle for a Kia Sportage.


----------



## magicre

:usa::usa::usa::usa::usa::usa:


----------



## Herzo

I really don't like corn in my dogs food, however they have been known to get the cobs from the compost pile.

Ok what I really want to know ....... what does everyone think will happen since corn sounds like it is going to be in short supply. Will SD and others just go higher in price? I don't think we may be calling it a cheep filler for long. What will crap foods put in, I guess they will have to stay with corn because they can't change there ingredients. Hummmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm


----------



## Tobi

Herzo said:


> I really don't like corn in my dogs food, however they have been known to get the cobs from the compost pile.
> 
> Ok what I really want to know ....... what does everyone think will happen since corn sounds like it is going to be in short supply. Will SD and others just go higher in price? I don't think we may be calling it a cheep filler for long. What will crap foods put in, I guess they will have to stay with corn because they can't change there ingredients. Hummmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm


I'd be wary of that, as it sits they cannot digest it... for example on another forum... a poster was talking bout their dog that ate one and regurgitated the cob almost 4 years later.

here is a picture of it.
















Shows how digestible vegetation is for a dog anyways... 3-4 years sitting in the belly of a semi raw fed dog :lol:


----------



## Sprocket

Tobi said:


> I'd be wary of that, as it sits they cannot digest it... for example on another forum... a poster was talking bout their dog that ate one and regurgitated the cob almost 4 years later.
> 
> here is a picture of it.
> 
> View attachment 8174
> 
> View attachment 8173
> 
> 
> Shows how digestible vegetation is for a dog anyways... 3-4 years sitting in the belly of a semi raw fed dog :lol:


 CRAZY!


----------



## Herzo

Tobi I am not being a nice guy...... ... I think I am not to say it.No it just comes out the back end.............................oh no. I am starting to think I may go veg with my dogs, I pick something in the garden and put it on the shelf on the fence and it is gone.............dam dogs....she...at heads. Was going to have a cucumber for supper.....ok well Richter don't you want it????????????????????????????????? No cuc for supper... No it does not digest.


----------



## DaViking

... and yet another nutritionist weighs in on the topic. Nothing new.

Corn revisited | Pronature Holistic Blog


----------



## GoingPostal

DaViking said:


> ... and yet another nutritionist weighs in on the topic. Nothing new.
> 
> Corn revisited | Pronature Holistic Blog


My antivirus went off when I clicked that link, can you post the info instead?


----------



## DaViking

GoingPostal said:


> My antivirus went off when I clicked that link, can you post the info instead?


"
This week I had the opportunity to take some questions from some people inside of our industry. The subject of truth versus perception about dog and cat food was raised. When this happens I always reflect upon the myriad of “myth as fact” articles that I read on a weekly basis. Unfortunately it has not gotten any better for those who are just trying to wade through and figure out what will really benefit their animal loved ones.

Here is a copy of the letter about corn that I wrote to a valued colleague:

First, the whole corn negative campaign was started by a dog food company. No science, no reason except that they sell lamb and rice! It was a stroke of marketing genius. They had their reps telling retail people that corn was indigestible (look what happened the last time you had corn on the cob), and that it triggered allergies. Oh yes, and that it was high on the glycemic index.

The truth is that corn is the only grain that WE eat with the husk on. It is not the “meat” of the corn that is hard to digest but the husk. When we use corn in pet food we grind the husk up and it becomes easily digestible. If fact, corn with the husk removed is the single most easily digestible carbohydrate source that we know about (95%+).

It is true that corn does contain protein; in fact the protein portion is sometimes used as a protein source in pet food. When corn is used as protein it is listed as “corn gluten”. Only this protein portion is a potential allergen. The truth is that most vegetable matter has protein. Grains in general get a bad rap here only because we use them as a protein source, but they are not really any more likely to be an allergen than most plant sources. That, coupled with the fact that less than 5% of dogs and cats are allergic to anything in their food, makes the “no grain” phobia look rather silly.

Corn is higher on the GI than some other plant sources, but it is lower than some recent popular sources like potatoes and sweet potatoes. It is in fact a very good, easily digestible source of quick energy for dogs and cats.

The other advantage of course is that it is relatively inexpensive for pet food companies to buy as an ingredient. This helps to keep the cost of the food down while providing quality carbohydrate energy.

So, in the end my advice is this. If your dog or cat is one of the very small percentage that is TESTED allergic to corn, or TESTED diabetic, then avoid corn. Otherwise, it is generally no better or worse than most carbohydrate sources for dogs and cats and it helps to keep prices reasonable.

Until next time…

Bob
"


----------



## Jace

Not for or against, just more info:

•	The carbohydrate fraction of corn is 99% digestible as are all grains in cat and dog food
•	The protein fraction is the most digestible of any grain at 87% (source Journal of Animal Science 1999 Aug;77(8):2180-6
•	Corn is 20 times LESS likely to be a source of ARF as wheat.
•	Corn and rice together account for less than 3% of all ARF reactions to food.
•	Corn contains 5 times more essential fatty acids as rice.
•	Corn contains higher levels of luceine, and lucopene – critical anti-oxidants


----------



## Sheltielover25

I don't believe any animal or human should be eating genetically modified ingredients and ALL corn in animal food would be a GMO. I don't feel comfortable feeding my pets something that's grown with built-in pesticides that cause insect's stomach to explode. There's absolutely NO testing done on the affects of genetically modified organisms and considering they're banned in most countries, I'd rather not take my chances. Nothing enters mine, or my animal's body, unless I know it isn't GMO or that it hasn't lived a life eating GMOs.


----------



## lab mom

I quess many dog food manufacturers do not know this, but, Corn is for Cows - Duhh!!!!


----------



## Sprocket

lab mom said:


> I quess many dog food manufacturers do not know this, but, Corn is for Cows - Duhh!!!!


Cattle should actually be eating grass, ideally


----------



## Sheltielover25

Yeah, corn is most definitely NOT for cows!! LIke Sprocket said cows should be eating GRASS! I think it's sad I'm having to pay MORE for a grass-fed cow...It's insane I'm having to pay more for an animal fed the correct way.


----------



## naturalfeddogs

Sheltielover25 said:


> Yeah, corn is most definitely NOT for cows!! LIke Sprocket said cows should be eating GRASS! I think it's sad I'm having to pay MORE for a grass-fed cow...It's insane I'm having to pay more for an animal fed the correct way.


That doesn't make sense, does it? I've never understood that. Maybe because It's healthier meat?


----------



## Roo

I was curious why it was more expensive too, so I looked it up, and here is one cattle ranches explanation as to why. . .

_"*Q *Why is grass fed beef more expensive than grain fed beef? God's grass, sunshine and rain are free.

*A.* Yes, grass-fed beef is more expensive than grain fed, but a little knowledge of the cattle industry can quickly explain why. Cattle producers today operate on an extremely low unit margin. Cattlefax stats over the last 20 years reports an average profit of $3 per head. Only sheer volume allows survival and hence small family farms are disappearing, giving way to the vertically integrated huge corporate producers. These large producers, also, own the feedlots, the granaries, and the meat packing facilities.

In this industry where volume is what determines profit, the speed at which the animal can be fattened becomes very important. Cattle confined to feedlots and fed grain/corn fatten in a much shorter length of time. Unquestionably, cattle in feedlots gain weight fast. However, the gain is at the expense of the health and comfort of the animal. Feedlot conditions necessitate the need for constant medicating while an animal becomes ready for slaughter at 12-13 months of age. A grass fattened animal is often not ready for slaughter until 18, and upwards of 24 months. If you count this extra time as that animal paying 'rent' on the land grazed plus opportunity loss for time which could be used developing another animal . . . then it isn't as hard to see how the cost goes up quickly.

Along the same lines are a consideration of space. In the feedlots, thousands and even hundreds of thousands of animals are confined to a few acres. The real estate required to fatten that same number of animals on grass would be very costly in a land where real estate prices soar. Yes, God does provide the sun and rain that grows the grass, but often the bank holds the mortgage on the land and the government likes the taxes on it. 

If you actually do a cost analysis, you would find that corn is a good bit cheaper to feed than grass (huge government subsidies help this be so). A recent NY Times article by Michael Pollen "Power Steer" gives an excellent cost analysis showing how corn gives the cheapest, fastest gain possible plus he outlined the horrible conditions in our nations feedlots.

Currently, with few exceptions, the only sources available for true grass fed beef are smaller, family-type producers who have decided to market their product directly to the consumer. Being a small family farm, our costs are phenomenal over the cost of the large corporate producers (IBP, ConAgra's, Excel) or the huge retailers (Omaha Steaks, etc.) who can take advantage of volume when it comes to shipping and packaging. For example, Omaha steaks has warehouses in all major regions to allow them to ship ground and decrease the tremendous cost of express air shipping. Many of our packages cost as much for insulated packaging and shipping as they do for the beef.

If you want to enjoy grass fed beef as inexpensively as possible, your best bet is to locate a local producer where you can pick up grass fed beef on the farm. We have customers who drive 4-5 hours to pick up beef at our grass farm for substantial savings. These customers look at the trip as a fun outing for the whole family. They enjoy visiting and seeing the animals on pasture first hand. If we aren't in your area, then you may be able to find another grass farm close by. The majority of grass farmers will appreciate your business."_

Freqently Asked Questions about Grass Fed Beef


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## TTs Towel

naturalfeddogs said:


> That doesn't make sense, does it? I've never understood that. Maybe because It's healthier meat?


What's the answer to 99 out of 100 questions?


Money


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## Dr Dolittle

Well, probably the best myth pushed on dog loving people, based on NO science but it does sell pet food. I agree with some of the folks on here that have researched it a bit and not simply believed food companies who came up with a clever way to market and differenciate their product. Corn is an excellent ingredient to put in both dog and cat food. Sorry, those who think dogs are carnivores. That simply is not true and only those who are uninformed will believe so. As someone mentioned, cats are true carnivores. It would not be that diffeicult to make a vegetarian diet for a dog, since they are omnivores, though there is no reason to. A dog needs aminao acids, period. Meat is a great protein source with many amino acids but not all. I can actually add soy to a meat diet and increase the total amino acid profile. The few amino acids meat is low in, soy is high in. The fact that soy does not have as high a biological number is irrelevant. I am not comparing ingredients. I am combining them for total nutrition! Egg is an excellent source of protein and very easy on kidneys. If you look, you'll notice lots of additional protein sources, some kind of weird soundings, but they are providing additional amino acids that meat isn't. Corn gluten, the heart of the kernal is an excellent protein source almost as digestible as meat. It is used in kidney diets at the vet to provide amino acids but does not tax the kidneys or produce nitrogen waste, something an issue with kidney dogs, and even in cats! We have been sold a bill of goods by food companies making meat so magical. The reason they do that is because it works, and they can buy cheap meat sources and make them sound so good because you don't know how to evaluate them. Corn provides energy, vitamins and minerals, essential fatty acids (5 times that of rice), atioxidants, etc. The derm specialists, not certain food companies, will tell you corn is a high allergen. Thats a lie! Corn is one of the lowest, with beef, wheat and now even Lamb much higher. Yet food companies tell you corn has no nutritional value and is a filler. That company is either ignorant, so why trust their food, or theyknow better and are lying! And again why feed their food? This myth is so prevelent that evey food company I know makes a grain free diet. Some folks on here swaer by them. yet there is not even one board certified nutritionist that can figure out where the myth came from. We all know....follow the money! As someone on this thread mentioned, they take out corn and then they add sweet potato. Well sorry folks, but sweet potato has DOUBLE the carbs as corn, and not as good a nutrient profile. But its the cool thing now. Funny how corn is so nondigestible but if you look at the intestinal diets made by 4 brands of vet diet companies, they use corn! LOL! So the top niutritionists formulating these diets, that work extremely well by the way, don't know how bad corn is! Maybe that fact would cause us to question whether the folks telling the lie know what they are talking about. So don't compare corn to meat. They have different purposes in the diet.You won't believe me on the grain free thing so I won't press the issue, but the sad fact is most of the grain free diets i look at have horrendous nutrient profiles, something you are not looking at, becasue the food companies have you looking at what ingredient is first and if the ingredients sound good to you. As just one example, while in Petmart there was a grain free diet that was about $70 for a 26 LB bag. There was a brochure talking about protein focused nutrition (What the heck is that?) and it stated that excess minerals could be detrimental to your dogs health over time. Wow! I was impressed! But I called their number and got their sodium and phosphorus levels. Sodium is not natural in a food so high sodium tells me they are adding it for taste and ignoring the health risks associated with it. Phosphorus is very harmful to a dog and cat as they age. It is found in the meat source (the bone, hair, hoof, feathers,etc) A food high in phosphorus is using cheap junk meat and/or meat meal sources. But they know you aren't looking so they get away with it! Well, that fancy expensive food had virtually the same sodium and phosphorus levels as Old Roy at Walmart! Purina ONE has a better profile and even has higher antioxidants than this fany expensive food! Its enough to just want to give up on the human race! Ripping off the folks that love their animals enough to buy this stuff. And if ypou understand what "Meat first" means that would really upset you! 99% of everyhting these food companies tell you has absolutely NOTHING to do with nutrition. In fact, back in 2005 a major, uncoming food company was sued for false advertising, trying to say that chicken meal was healtheir than chicken-by-product meal. (Its not) and the quote from the president under oath was, "Our no chicken by product message has nothing to do with nutrition and is just meant to capitalize on people's aversion to yucky stuff." Those are the companies selling you food. Sorry if I get passionate. Its been my passion for over 25 years now, most of my life. Just offering some perspective if nothing else. God Bless!


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## Tobi

Maybe you should voice your opinion to the scientists that still have canis lupus familiaris listed as a carnivore... They may have the ability to be omnivorous... It doesn't mean they are such. Cats and dogs are two completely different species of carnivore, it's not like an apple ceases to be a fruit because it doesn't taste and look like an orange.


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## Dr Dolittle

Not talking classifications. One has to only look at a cat to see they are carnivores nutritionally. cats have a daily need for animal protein for taurine, fatty acids and a few other reasons. Dogs simply don't! They can utilize a combination of plant and animal protein, don't need the daily taurine, can take the first two types of fatty acids and make the third like humans, etc. LOL! Trust me, I am no expert and my opinion matters little. I trust trust the people that do the research rather than those trying to peddle something.It would be impossible to make a vegetarian diets for a cat. it is easy for a dog. If you started thinking nutrients such as amino acids instead of letting food peddlers convince you there are good and bad ingredients you would begin to understand nutrition. But that takes quite a shift in thinking.


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## LilasMom

Dr Dolittle said:


> Not talking classifications. One has to only look at a cat to see they are carnivores nutritionally. cats have a daily need for animal protein for taurine, fatty acids and a few other reasons. Dogs simply don't! They can utilize a combination of plant and animal protein, don't need the daily taurine, can take the first two types of fatty acids and make the third like humans, etc. LOL! Trust me, I am no expert and my opinion matters little. I trust trust the people that do the research rather than those trying to *peddle something*.It would be impossible to make a vegetarian diets for a cat. it is easy for a dog. If you started thinking nutrients such *as amino acids* instead of letting food peddlers convince you there are good and bad ingredients you would begin to understand nutrition. But that takes quite a shift in thinking.


Peddling? The ones peddling are those food companies (hills, etc). They make all the money in recommending the food. Reason they recommend it? Because in vet school they received their small amount of nutrition education by the very same companies selling this food. You cannot trust them because their research is biased. They are in it for the money. Mother Nature isn't selling anything, she isn't out to make any money. Her plan of mostly to all meat and no grains has worked for thousands of years. These terrible companies fooled the public into buying their cereal food and now our pets are dying.


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## Tobi

Back in the 70s and 80s dogs and cats were dying from cardiomyopathy, traced back to a lack of a valuable amino acid to both if them... Taurine, so because dogs, and wolves have EVOLVED they no longer need it at all? In fact in the 80s when high cereal filled sog foods started coming out they were adding huge amounts of it because they weren't synthesizing the taurine correctly from the amino acids they were consuming in a mostly vegetarian based diet... There is no debating the jaw structure of a dog, and a cat, please tell me they are different... Again, just because they CAN doeant mean that it is all they should eat... They have evolved, and adapted, Darwinism at its absolute finest. Hand your dog a carrot... Watch him grind it up with his FLAT molars, oh, wait... He wouldn't be able to, simply because his jaws are designed to crush bone, and cut meat... How would a dog naturally derive the essential nutrients it needs when it can't grind the cellulose walls down with its teeth?


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## Dr Dolittle

Tobi said:


> Back in the 70s and 80s dogs and cats were dying from cardiomyopathy, traced back to a lack of a valuable amino acid to both if them... Taurine, so because dogs, and wolves have EVOLVED they no longer need it at all? In fact in the 80s when high cereal filled sog foods started coming out they were adding huge amounts of it because they weren't synthesizing the taurine correctly from the amino acids they were consuming in a mostly vegetarian based diet... There is no debating the jaw structure of a dog, and a cat, please tell me they are different... Again, just because they CAN doeant mean that it is all they should eat... They have evolved, and adapted, Darwinism at its absolute finest. Hand your dog a carrot... Watch him grind it up with his FLAT molars, oh, wait... He wouldn't be able to, simply because his jaws are designed to crush bone, and cut meat... How would a dog naturally derive the essential nutrients it needs when it can't grind the cellulose walls down with its teeth?


The taurine deficiency was dealing with cats only, not dogs. But your point is a valid point that science is limited to our current knowledge. can't argue with that. LOL! I actually use the breeding of dogs to disprove Darwinian evolution so I don't see the connection there. The science of how we now use Omega 3 fatty acids to treat arthritis, slow the progression of kidney failure just to name a few, are not natural in their diets but sure work great.


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## Dr Dolittle

LilasMom said:


> Peddling? The ones peddling are those food companies (hills, etc). They make all the money in recommending the food. Reason they recommend it? Because in vet school they received their small amount of nutrition education by the very same companies selling this food. You cannot trust them because their research is biased. They are in it for the money. Mother Nature isn't selling anything, she isn't out to make any money. Her plan of mostly to all meat and no grains has worked for thousands of years. These terrible companies fooled the public into buying their cereal food and now our pets are dying.


I would never be one to say anyone or anything isn't biased but grade 1 and 2 clinical research is reviewed by peers and published for all to evaluate. Studies are done by many groups and individuals that are not paid by food companies and their are many blind studies where the researchers don't even know what brands they might be testing. I would much rather judge the researcher based on their credentials and their past history of studies than trust a food company that made up a diet on their PC, faxed it to a plant in Nebraska, had the food made with hardly any nutrient checks or any quality control, with no veterinary supervision, and then put it in a pretty bag and sell it, and your dog is the first one to eat it! You may think I am kidding. I wish I was. By the way, there are some universities that are known for their studies on urinary health or maybe renal health and food companies would love to "buy" their endorsement but I can tell you the researchers I know are very sincere and passionate about their life work. the question then is if food companies will spend the money to put that great research into their food. Ironically you are not getting as much meat as you think, and that's actually healthier for your dogs. Yes, in nature, probably more meat than anything else, but thank God your little guys will live much longer than those wolves who savaged for whatever they could get.


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## LilasMom

Dr Dolittle said:


> I would never be one to say anyone or anything isn't biased but grade 1 and 2 clinical research is reviewed by peers and published for all to evaluate. Studies are done by many groups and individuals that are not paid by food companies and their are many blind studies where the researchers don't even know what brands they might be testing. I would much rather judge the researcher based on their credentials and their past history of studies than trust a food company that made up a diet on their PC, faxed it to a plant in Nebraska, had the food made with hardly any nutrient checks or any quality control, with no veterinary supervision, and then put it in a pretty bag and sell it, and your dog is the first one to eat it! You may think I am kidding. I wish I was. By the way, there are some universities that are known for their studies on urinary health or maybe renal health and food companies would love to "buy" their endorsement but I can tell you the researchers I know are very sincere and passionate about their life work. the question then is if food companies will spend the money to put that great research into their food. * Ironically you are not getting as much meat as you think, and that's actually healthier for your dogs. *Yes, in nature, probably more meat than anything else, but thank God your little guys will live much longer than those wolves who savaged for whatever they could get.


This doesn't make any sense. And the only reason my guys will live longer is because they are indoors. I hate when people use the excuse that wolves die early and that is why we shouldn't treat dogs like them. They don't die because of their diets, it is because there are a lot of scary factors living in the wild, like bear traps, fighting, poaching, etc.


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## Dr Dolittle

Lilasmom, I absolutely agree. As a wolf lover I wish it was different. What I mean is that to formulate a diet for a geriatric dog to help reduce the age related risks of kidney and heart disease, dental issues, etc, we can't use the wolf model because there are no geriatric wolves to use. I will just site Origen's write up on their website, talking about their Senior food. There is nothing senior about it. In fact it is actually a puppy food profile (all life stage) and I believe is 38% protein?????? That goes against 99% of all research into how to keep geriatric disease risks down. I guess I am just saying we do lots of unatural things to our dogs for their benefit. We have to be careful we don't get sucked in to great marketing. By the way, Origen also writes that the vet diets are really all one food in different colored bags. When I read that I realized this company had absolutely no clue. I know its a popular food on here but it is a real shame...and a real sham. When I think of all the dogs alive enjoying life with their human families becasue of the 4 brands of vet diets that are out there, dissolving urinary stones, managing daibetes, managing kidney failure, etc. and they get bshed by food companies with no techincal knowldege at all, as a dog lover, I lose alot of faith in humanity. Easier to love the dogs!


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## Roo

Dr Dolittle said:


> A dog needs aminao acids, period. Meat is a great protein source with many amino acids but not all. I can actually add soy to a meat diet and increase the total amino acid profile. The few amino acids meat is low in, soy is high in. The fact that soy does not have as high a biological number is irrelevant. I am not comparing ingredients. I am combining them for total nutrition! Egg is an excellent source of protein and very easy on kidneys. If you look, you'll notice lots of additional protein sources, some kind of weird soundings, but they are providing additional amino acids that meat isn't. Corn gluten, the heart of the kernal is an excellent protein source almost as digestible as meat. It is used in kidney diets at the vet to provide amino acids but does not tax the kidneys or produce nitrogen waste, something an issue with kidney dogs, and even in cats! We have been sold a bill of goods by food companies making meat so magical. The reason they do that is because it works, and they can buy cheap meat sources and make them sound so good because you don't know how to evaluate them. Corn provides energy, vitamins and minerals, essential fatty acids (5 times that of rice), atioxidants, etc.


Dogs need amino acids in their diet, but only the essential ones. Meat contains Arginine, Leucine, Isoleucine, Valine, Lysine, Threonine, Tryptophan, Methionine, Phenylalanine, Histidine, and Taurine. Which amino acid is in soy or corn that should be combined with meat that a dog's body can't make?

Corn gluten is "almost" as digestible, but not as digestible as meat, almost being a key word. Yes corn provides energy, vitamins, essential fatty acids, etc., which is all well and good, till you start comparing it to other foods. Corn provides energy, but fat provides twice as much. Corn provides vitamins and antioxidants, but cook it and some of them are lowered or no longer present and synthetic forms may have to be added in (as in the case with commercial dry dog foods). Corn provides essential fatty acids but the ratio of omega 6 to omega 3 is incorrect for dogs being around 46:1. If my dog is going to eat a fair amount of omega 6, I'd prefer it to come from more digestible meat products than corn, and balance it out with fish oil.

Kidney diets aren't the best example to use as to why it's good to use corn in dog foods. Dogs with CRF, when bad enough, have different dietary needs, they can't process meat as well with the phos content, so other foods have to be used to provide nutrients, but it's obviously not a necessity for any healthy dog.

Dogs are scientifically classified as carnivores, meso carnivores, consuming a diet of mostly animal protein, not completely though. Their species classification under wolves is an indication that their diet probably follows more closely to those under the same species, rather than say a bear, also found under the carnivore classification, but not under the same species.



Dr Dolittle said:


> The taurine deficiency was dealing with cats only, not dogs.


There was a couple taurine deficiency studies done in the late 90's- early 00's with dogs.
Taurine deficiency in dogs with dilated c... [J Am Vet Med Assoc. 2003] - PubMed - NCBI
Dilated cardiomyopathy in dogs dietary taurine deficiency related
Taurine and carnitine in ... [Vet Clin North Am Small Anim Pract. 2006] - PubMed - NCBI
Taurine Deficiency Causes Heart Disease in Cats and Dogs


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## LilasMom

Dr Dolittle said:


> Lilasmom, I absolutely agree. As a wolf lover I wish it was different. What I mean is that to formulate a diet for a geriatric dog to help reduce the age related risks of kidney and heart disease, dental issues, etc, we can't use the wolf model because there are no geriatric wolves to use. I will just site Origen's write up on their website, talking about their Senior food. There is nothing senior about it. *In fact it is actually a puppy food profile (all life stage) and I believe is 38% protein?????? That goes against 99% of all research into how to keep geriatric disease risks down. *I guess I am just saying we do lots of unatural things to our dogs for their benefit. We have to be careful we don't get sucked in to great marketing. By the way, Origen also writes that the vet diets are really all one food in different colored bags. When I read that I realized this company had absolutely no clue. I know its a popular food on here but it is a real shame...and a real sham. When I think of all the dogs alive enjoying life with their human families becasue of the 4 brands of vet diets that are out there, *dissolving urinary stones, managing daibetes, managing kidney failure,* etc. and they get bshed by food companies with no techincal knowldege at all, as a dog lover, I lose alot of faith in humanity. Easier to love the dogs!


Many people believe low protein is best for senior dogs when in fact they need that protein to keep their muscles strong enough to keep moving easy through the day. If they don't get enough protein their body will start to use the dogs own muscle. Happens with dogs and humans. And most of the time, the reason for all these illnesses you say the vet food is curing is the food made by the exact same companies. Purina, science diet, and royal canin all make foods that you can by at petco, yet when your pet starts getting sick from eating bad food you feed a "prescription" diet made by the same company? It just doesn't make sense. They are creating a terrible cycle of getting dogs sick and "curing" them. These foods are a bandaid at best, masking the real issue. There would be no need for these foods if proper diets where fed. There is a reason these companies are being bashed by more and more people every day, and it is because they are starting to see the crushing effects of these foods. The "unnatural" things you say we do to are dogs to keep them alive wouldn't even be necessary if not for these foods! They are staring to understand that vets may have it wrong. It isn't about love, it is about money. Corn is cheap and filling, so they made it "good" for dogs. Corn is HORRIBLE for humans, and it is even more horrible for dogs since they are carnivores and the corn. Soy is also something no one should eat regularly unless organic. Too estrogenic. There is a difference between thriving and surviving, dogs being fed grains that I wouldn't dare put inside my body (much less theirs) is not thriving when they have to overwork their bodies just to digest the damn food.

Edit: Also I would ever put hydrolyzed anything in my body if I can help it, definitely not giving it to my dog.


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## 1605

LilasMom said:


> Many people believe low protein is best for senior dogs when in fact they need that protein to keep their muscles strong enough to keep moving easy through the day. If they don't get enough protein their body will start to use the dogs own muscle. Happens with dogs and humans. And most of the time, the reason for all these illnesses you say the vet food is curing is the food made by the exact same companies. Purina, science diet, and royal canin all make foods that you can by at petco, yet when your pet starts getting sick from eating bad food you feed a "prescription" diet made by the same company? It just doesn't make sense. They are creating a terrible cycle of getting dogs sick and "curing" them. These foods are a bandaid at best, masking the real issue. There would be no need for these foods if proper diets where fed. There is a reason these companies are being bashed by more and more people every day, and it is because they are starting to see the crushing effects of these foods. The "unnatural" things you say we do to are dogs to keep them alive wouldn't even be necessary if not for these foods! They are staring to understand that vets may have it wrong. It isn't about love, it is about money. Corn is cheap and filling, so they made it "good" for dogs. Corn is HORRIBLE for humans, and it is even more horrible for dogs since they are carnivores and the corn. Soy is also something no one should eat regularly unless organic. Too estrogenic. There is a difference between thriving and surviving, dogs being fed grains that I wouldn't dare put inside my body (much less theirs) is not thriving when they have to overwork their bodies just to digest the damn food.


While I tend to agree with you about the nature of some of the more commercialized brands of dog food, I am not sure you are proving your point with regard to corn for humans, or soy products. Especially with the term "Too estrogenic". What does that mean?

Many Asian countries have a more healthy population because of the large amounts of soy, legumes, fresh vegetables, and seafood they consume. High-fat proteins like beef are not staples, but chicken and lean pork generally more prevalent. 

And then there's rice. Yes, carbs. People do need carbs for the calories to convert to energy.


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## LilasMom

SubMariner said:


> While I tend to agree with you about the nature of some of the more commercialized brands of dog food, I am not sure you are proving your point with regard to corn for humans, or soy products. Especially with the term "Too estrogenic". What does that mean?
> 
> Many Asian countries have a more healthy population because of the large amounts of soy, legumes, fresh vegetables, and seafood they consume. High-fat proteins like beef are not staples, but chicken and lean pork generally more prevalent.
> 
> *And then there's rice. Yes, carbs. People do need carbs for the calories to convert to energy.*


By too estrogenic I mean there is a lot of estrogen in soy. It has been linked to breast cancer and early puberty in humans, among other things. And actually most carbs really aren't good for you, whole grains, rice, potatoes included. They turn to sugar in the body. And most corn is genetically modified as well, which is not something I will eat willingly. My only carbs come from veggies, sometimes fruits, and certain dairy products I still use. One doesn't even technically need carbs though, because the body can make its own from fats and proteins. 

Also I can't find the article on why asians aren't fat, but part of it is because walking/bike riding is a much bigger part of their daily lives than it is ours. White rice has also been linked to type 2 diabetes.


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## lauren43

I have tons to say about everything that has bee. Said but this thread is old points have been made for both side of the argument and then beaten with a stick. 

Lets let this thread to rest already people!

BTW I can't argue that corn is not a great source of easily digestible energy. Many knowledgeable people have some on here and said the same thing. The problem is the corn in general as far as GMOs and overly processed food.


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## 1605

LilasMom said:


> By too estrogenic I mean there is a lot of estrogen in soy. It has been linked to breast cancer and early puberty in humans, among other things. And actually most carbs really aren't good for you, whole grains, rice, potatoes included. They turn to sugar in the body. And most corn is genetically modified as well, which is not something I will eat willingly. My only carbs come from veggies, sometimes fruits, and certain dairy products I still use. One doesn't even technically need carbs though, because the body can make its own from fats and proteins. Also I can't find the article on why asians aren't fat, but part of it is because walking/bike riding is a much bigger part of their daily lives than it is ours. White rice has also been linked to type 2 diabetes.


 If you are a reasonably active person, you cannot get all the energy you need from just fruit & veg. You will never see an athlete "loading up" on just fruit or veg. There will always be carbs like pasta. It can be more complex carbs like whole wheat pasta, buckwheat noodles, etc. But it is still carbs.

 Meanwhile, I have yet to find an actual scientific article stating that there is estrogen in soy. What they DO have is isoflavons. Isoflavons CAN SOMETIMES MIMIC estrogen, but they are NOT the same as the estrogen that mammals produce. 

Here are a few links regarding soy/isoflavons dispelling the myth of estrogen + soy + cancer: Soy: The Good, the Bad and the Best | The Dr. Oz Show http://www.breastcancer.org/tips/nutrition/reduce_risk/foods/soy The Bottom Line on Soy and Breast Cancer Risk 

Also, the link between white rice & type 2 diabetes is not conclusive: http://www.minnpost.com/second-opinion/2012/03/putting-rice-diabetes- findings-perspective


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## LilasMom

SubMariner said:


> If you are a reasonably active person, you cannot get all the energy you need from just fruit & veg. You will never see an athlete "loading up" on just fruit or veg. There will always be carbs like pasta. It can be more complex carbs like whole wheat pasta, buckwheat noodles, etc. But it is still carbs.
> 
> Meanwhile, I have yet to find an actual scientific article stating that there is estrogen in soy. What they DO have is isoflavons. Isoflavons CAN SOMETIMES MIMIC estrogen, but they are NOT the same as the estrogen that mammals produce.
> 
> Here are a few links regarding soy/isoflavons dispelling the myth of estrogen + soy + cancer: Soy: The Good, the Bad and the Best | The Dr. Oz Show http://www.breastcancer.org/tips/nutrition/reduce_risk/foods/soy The Bottom Line on Soy and Breast Cancer Risk
> 
> Also, the link between white rice & type 2 diabetes is not conclusive: http://www.minnpost.com/second-opinion/2012/03/putting-rice-diabetes- findings-perspective


You load up on fat and protein. Fat is just a better and longer lasting fuel for the body.

Regardless of whether or not it is linked to cancer, most of the soy available is genetically modified. Definitely not feeding that. And maybe white rice isn't specifically linked to diabetes conclusively, but it is still a carb and carbs like pasta, rice, corn, and other grains turn to sugar in the body and are not good for you. Low carb/sugar diets are best for diabetics. I avoid both soy, rice, wheat, and corn and so do my dogs.


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## 1605

LilasMom said:


> You load up on fat and protein. Fat is just a better and longer lasting fuel for the body.
> 
> Regardless of whether or not it is linked to cancer, most of the soy available is genetically modified. Definitely not feeding that. And maybe white rice isn't specifically linked to diabetes conclusively, but it is still a carb and carbs like pasta, rice, corn, and other grains turn to sugar in the body and are not good for you. Low carb/sugar diets are best for diabetics. I avoid both soy, rice, wheat, and corn and so do my dogs.


I am going to put this as diplomatically as possible: you are putting forth sweeping hypothesis as if they are fact and not supplying anything to support your statements. Especially something like "regardless of whether or not it is linked to cancer, most of the soy available is genetically modified...."

For example, with just a 60 second "google", I was able to come up with several decent pieces of research that did not confirm your fat vs carb assertions; or indicated that fat was better than carbs but only in specific endurance sports:

Nutrition for the Athlete

http://www.pponline.co.uk/encyc/sports-nutrition-should-athletes-use-fat-or-carbohydrate-as-fuel-631

I would be happy to continue this discourse either in a separate thread of via pm. I think we have hijacked this discussion long enough....


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## doggypack

The reasons why corn is bad:

1.Corn and Soy are all (or almost) GMO , that is genetically modified to contain and survive an even larger amount of pesticides.
2. The amount of grains ingested in the wild is very minimal, from the digested contents of the small animals they eat, together with vegetation. However, they do not choose grains alone neither corn is available in wolf's area (Nordic and desert).
3. Corn is mainly a carbohydrate, like most grains. On the other hand, Lentils (a bean) is very nourishing and rich in iron.

I have 5 dogs (3 large), so is not practical and expressive the raw food diet. I gave them carrots, broccoli, all fruits (no grapes). My table food is healthy I don't eat meats but sometimes I buy for them as treats


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