# Court Rules Dog's are No Longer Just "Property"



## chowder (Sep 7, 2008)

This is an interesting ruling in Texas, because in a similar case just last month, North Carolina courts ruled that dogs were in fact, merely property and you are only entitled to be reimbursed for the cost of replacing the dog. It was of particular interest to me because I lost two dogs to vet error and had no recourse because in this state, they are merely 'property'. 

The case that went before the courts here involved the same Vet School that I lost a dog at, and involved a similar type of vet error. After spending over $20,000 on her dog for cancer treatment, they put the feeding tube in wrong and force fed the dog into it's lungs. She was awarded $350 to replace the cost of the dog and the courts ruled that fair. 

It will be interesting to see if the Texas courts decision saying that dogs are more then property holds up in their Supreme Court. 

Groundbreaking Court Ruling Takes Dogs Beyond "Property" Status; Major Pet Industry Groups Not Happy | Dogster


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## Donna Little (May 31, 2011)

I could only hope that this catches on in every state. You can't put a price on a beloved pet but to consider them just property is ridiculous in my opinion. I can't imagine being that poor dog that went through cancer treatment to only die by having someone force food into my lungs. Too painful to even think about....


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## liquid (Dec 28, 2011)

A vet drowned a dog with food and got away with it by paying $350?

Sickening.


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## lauren43 (Feb 6, 2011)

Wow that story really touches home, esp considering the pups name was Avery. I really hope that this catches on, dogs are much much more than property. And this change in laws could go in both directions, for those who wrongfully loose a pet and for those evil people who abuse dogs...


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

does that mean i can now sue the dog food company that slowly killed four of my dogs?


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## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

magicre said:


> does that mean i can now sue the dog food company that slowly killed four of my dogs?


That's why they don't like it - they market the crap to you like your dog is a member of your family, a child even.

yet when they kill that dog with their food, all of a sudden it is property.

IF they were forced to pay mental distress and there was no limit on vet bills they had to pay, I bet they wouldn't be putting melamine in the dog food.

And Chowder that's awful what happened to your dogs. And in such a short time. At the very least, you should have been able to legally firebomb their house.


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## RCTRIPLEFRESH5 (Feb 11, 2010)

if dogs arent property why didnt she get 20k instead of 300 am i missing something(didnt read article..yet)

on another note how is 375 enough to get a new dog? that is barely enough to adopt most dogs......
and what f she wants a 2000 dollar puppy from a breeder to prevent her next dog from getting cancer? Also what about pain and suffering....

i'd be pissed if they put the feeding tube in wrong..whtf were these guys trained????


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

xelill.....it was menadione sodium bisulfate....conveniently removed from the food once enough dogs had suffered with off the charts liver enzymes....

there are dog foods that still use it.

RC...i think this was just passed and only in texas....i swear i'm moving to texas, just because of this.

Chowder....i get it. and, if you need help with the firebombing, i'll send snorkels and nikie


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## RCTRIPLEFRESH5 (Feb 11, 2010)

is the case chowder talking about in NC? or perhaps texas b4 it was passed?


magicre said:


> xelill.....it was menadione sodium bisulfate....conveniently removed from the food once enough dogs had suffered with off the charts liver enzymes....
> 
> there are dog foods that still use it.
> 
> ...


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## chowder (Sep 7, 2008)

xellil said:


> And Chowder that's awful what happened to your dogs. And in such a short time. At the very least, you should have been able to legally firebomb their house.


Don't mention that near my husband!! It's hard enough to control him and it's been 4 years. He was ready to go after every vet in town and if I had been thinking clearly at the time, I would have helped him!

In my case, with the first dog, the vet overdosed him on pain medication after surgery and stopped the dogs heart. They kept giving him pain medication over and over again because he was so upset and in so much pain (gee.....he was a chow, alone, and they never called me in to help ). We got a copy of the bill and they actually itemized each dose of pain medicine that they charged us for. It was enough to knock out a horse. Plus, it was one known to give fatal reactions in many breeds. One month later, they put a trach tube in my new puppy to take x-rays and ended up with the same problem as the one in the story... they got it in wrong and they ended up getting food from his stomach into his lungs. Same vet school as in the story. We were out 2 dogs and $10,000 in one month.

So, Rocky and Shade are going to visit the all natural vet that is an hour away in September when Rocky's rabies is due. That will be the only thing they go to the doctor for unless they break a leg! 

Hopefully this Texas case will change things but I have a feeling it is going to be challenged. They are saying that it will be way too expensive and there will be too many lawsuits for animals to be considered anything but property. There really should be some kind of accountability though.


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## PDXdogmom (Jun 30, 2010)

Laws regarding pets are lagging behind they way most of the U.S. treats and cares for their pets. Sometimes it's hard to tell the difference in the amount of time and money spent between human children and fur children. The medical bills, insurance, doggie day care (school), toys, equipment; etc. is at a level not seen several decades ago.

But there will always be a difference in the courts between medical negligence (like the feeding tube in the wrong place) versus something less specific like poor or potentially dangerous food ingredients in kibble where damage may be done over a long period of time.


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

PDXdogmom said:


> Laws regarding pets are lagging behind they way most of the U.S. treats and cares for their pets. Sometimes it's hard to tell the difference in the amount of time and money spent between human children and fur children. The medical bills, insurance, doggie day care (school), toys, equipment; etc. is at a level not seen several decades ago.
> 
> But there will always be a difference in the courts between medical negligence (like the feeding tube in the wrong place) versus something less specific like poor or potentially dangerous food ingredients in kibble where damage may be done over a long period of time.


true....as i look at the food i eat and the foods my dogs eat...it's just a growing frustration that now it takes me three hours to shop because i have to read every ingredient....looking for that hidden one i cannot have, won't have....

even organic is suspect now....grown in fields of arsenic. i mean, really?

maybe it would be different if i didn't have stage one liver disease on top of everything else....but how does one clean a liver when eating toxic organic foods.....and i'm being tongue in cheek a little...

and then whether i'm feeding kibble, home cooking or feeding raw, i have to watch out for that, too...

or supplements for an arthritic dog rather than nsaids.....you wouldn't believe what i've found in these pills or chewables....

just plain unsuitable.

sigh.

ok. rant over.


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## Dude and Bucks Mamma (May 14, 2011)

What I worry about is the rights of animals. Animals don't have the rights that we have. They have the right to food, shelter, and proper care. However, groups like PETA are going to take this to a whole new level. I have heard that PETA is pushing for animals to be able to sue people... Because a cow can totally do that...

I think there is a fine line between protecting animals and humanizing them and I think we are getting dangerously close to that line. This isn't to say that I don't think this is a good thing. I just think we need to be careful with it. I have heard some pretty loony stuff involving pets being more than just "property". 

I will always consider my dogs to be both. I bought my dogs. I didn't just "take them in". I paid for them just like I paid for my shoes. I own them. I am a dog OWNER not a dog GUARDIAN or a pet PARENT(even though I do consider myself their guardian). On the other hand, they are not just an item. They are a living, breathing creature with feelings. They may not be the feelings that humans experience but they experience happiness, sadness, fear, pain, etc. They are family members. 

I am mixed on this subject. I can see this being a very good thing but I can also see it spiraling out of control. Before I pass judgement on it I will wait and see what comes of it. Hopefully we can keep from making animals into furry people.


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## Caty M (Aug 13, 2010)

I'd be happy with stricter punishments on animal abuse and neglect.. WAY stricter. I'd also like quality control and recalls similar to how they are done with people.. no way would that chicken treats thing be happening if it was baby food. The pet food industry in general needs to be way way better regulated.. in both quality control, marketing control and nutritional quality. Personally I think there SHOULD be a ban on making pet food that is 60% carbs and marketing it as healthy..

Also I'd love an anti-tethering law, or at least one that states a dog cannot be tied up more than x amount of hours.


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## Dude and Bucks Mamma (May 14, 2011)

Caty M said:


> Also I'd love an anti-tethering law, or at least one that states a dog cannot be tied up more than x amount of hours.


Some places already do. I don't know if it goes by city, county, or state but I know that many places are limiting the amount of time a dog can be tethered as well as having a temperature limit (can;t be tethered outside if hotter than X degrees or colder than X degrees).


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

i think the pendulum swings too far each way....and hopefully, it will come to rest in the middle.

i think humane treatment is what's at stake for me. when i see videos of things shoved into the stomachs of cows to force feed them grains to fatten them up....that's when i want legislation.

when dog food companies can put anything they want into a dog food and not be responsible for the outcome, i want legislation.

when vets are negligent, i want to be able to sue for more than the bill and the price to buy a puppy.

and i want punitive damage. i want jail time for puppy mills whose horrific pictures i can't get out of my head....

if you kill my dog and you do it on purpose by putting antifreeze out, you need to spend some time in jail.

if your pre sociopathic child kills my animal, then both of you need to go to jail.

let's enforce the laws already on the books...

peta is ruining it for all of us who are sane.


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## kevin bradley (Aug 9, 2009)

Personally I don't see that my Dogs life is any less important than a human's life.

Many deem me as crazy for this comment... really don't care.

And if some think I'm wrong, I'm willing to listen to any rebuttal but the following...
1. Just because
2. The dominion crap in the Bible. 

I'll listen to anything else.


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## chowder (Sep 7, 2008)

kevin bradley said:


> Personally I don't see that my Dogs life is any less important than a human's life.
> 
> Many deem me as crazy for this comment... really don't care.
> 
> ...



Since I work in criminal justice, I can tell you right now that there are a lot of human lives that are worth LESS then my dogs. You don't want to know some of the unimaginable things people have done. I wish that I had never learned some of them.


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## RCTRIPLEFRESH5 (Feb 11, 2010)

kind of off topic..but regarding what you said about the child killing your dog...
i think all child murders should be tried as adults.


magicre said:


> i think the pendulum swings too far each way....and hopefully, it will come to rest in the middle.
> 
> i think humane treatment is what's at stake for me. when i see videos of things shoved into the stomachs of cows to force feed them grains to fatten them up....that's when i want legislation.
> 
> ...


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## kevin bradley (Aug 9, 2009)

chowder said:


> Since I work in criminal justice, I can tell you right now that there are a lot of human lives that are worth LESS then my dogs. You don't want to know some of the unimaginable things people have done. I wish that I had never learned some of them.



Precisely what I was thinking, Chowder.


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## Caty M (Aug 13, 2010)

RCTRIPLEFRESH5 said:


> kind of off topic..but regarding what you said about the child killing your dog...
> i think all child murders should be tried as adults.


I don't.. an 11 year old should not be and should have MASSIVE rehabilitation. The parents should be very closely looked at.


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## Dude and Bucks Mamma (May 14, 2011)

I view my dogs lives to be more valuable than most people. I would die for my dogs with no hesitation but there aren't many people I would do that for.

I just don't think they need to have all the rights humans do. My dog doesn't need the right to sue someone for purposely stepping on his tail in a dog park. He doesn't need to be able to sue me if I choose not to feed him one day (fasting). He doesn't need to be able to sue me for crating him against his will. This is where I see this whole thing spiraling out of control.

I DO think humans are above animals (not superior but in the role we play). We are their caretakers. Without us, not many dogs would survive. Buck would do just fine but Dude would die of starvation. But as their caretakers we are responsible for taking care of them and making sure their needs are met. Many people don't and that's where these new laws will help but I have a feeling they are going to hit us great owners as well.


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## wolfsnaps88 (Jan 2, 2012)

Dogs can't sue people. How could they? They can't talk? Does PETA want to be an interpreter at the courts now for Fido?

"Bark" -dog

"He says he feels violated that you would call him a dog and not by his name, Randy" -PETA rep.

"Woof woof, bark" -dog

"He also wants to sue for emotional damages, your honor" -PETA rep.

I wish dogs, cats, horses, birds, etc. were not just looked at as property. How can anything with a heartbeat be considered as JUST property. Sadly, I don't think much will come from this. THE MAN just won't let it. Allowing for an animal to be viewed upon as more than a 'thing' in court opens the floodgates for too many complicated issues. 

I DO think that pet owners should be able to sue for emotional damage though. If someone killed my dog, I would lose my mind. I would not be as upset if someone broke my fridge. A refrigerator can be replaced. Sargeant can not. 

I should add that if someone DID kill my dog, I would no longer come to this forum. I would be in jail. For murder.


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## DDBsR4Me (Jan 23, 2012)

Caty M said:


> Also I'd love an anti-tethering law, or at least one that states a dog cannot be tied up more than x amount of hours.


This is actually a city ordinance where I live. Dogs cannot be tied out for more than 2 hours at a time, and for not more than x total amount of hours per day (I forgot what the total amount allowed is).


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## DDBsR4Me (Jan 23, 2012)

chowder said:


> Since I work in criminal justice, I can tell you right now that there are a lot of human lives that are worth LESS then my dogs. You don't want to know some of the unimaginable things people have done. I wish that I had never learned some of them.


I wish I could like your post more than once.....I too work in the criminal justice field, with some of the most heinous people I have ever seen.


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## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

I think there is a big difference between a dog suing for emotional distress and a person suing for emotional distress and the distinction is clear. I don't see a slippery slope here.

If someone kills my dog I ought to be able to sue for loss of companionship, mental anguish, and everything else you could sue for a human loss EXCEPT for loss of earnings.


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

wolfsnaps88 said:


> Dogs can't sue people. How could they? They can't talk? Does PETA want to be an interpreter at the courts now for Fido?
> 
> "Bark" -dog
> 
> ...


and i'd be your bitch in jail. no one and i mean no one hurts those i love and i don't love easily.

caty, if that 11 year old accidentally, without intent, killed....that's one thing.....but if that 11 year old kills animals just for the thrill, sets fires, and wets the bed, then forensic psychiatric evaluation is called for for that is the triad...and further investigation is needed.

just like we can't cure stupid, we cannot cure sociopaths.


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

xellil said:


> I think there is a big difference between a dog suing for emotional distress and a person suing for emotional distress and the distinction is clear. I don't see a slippery slope here.
> 
> If someone kills my dog I ought to be able to sue for loss of companionship, mental anguish, and everything else you could sue for a human loss EXCEPT for loss of earnings.


and i believe that if someone kills my dog, i should be able to kill them.


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## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

magicre said:


> and i believe that if someone kills my dog, i should be able to kill them.


Someone DID kill my dog once. I didn't kill him, but I had it all planned out. i got so obsessed with it my husband quit his job and we moved. I think eventually I would have crossed that line and done it. I still obsess over it even though the guy is dead. He got cancer a few years later and i hope it was a long a painful death.


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

xellil said:


> Someone DID kill my dog once. I didn't kill him, but I had it all planned out. i got so obsessed with it my husband quit his job and we moved. I think eventually I would have crossed that line and done it. I still obsess over it even though the guy is dead. He got cancer a few years later and i hope it was a long a painful death.


someone stole my dog...and i'm still looking for whoever it is.....i still look for the dog.....and it's what, 25 years later?


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## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

yep some things you just can't let go of. the good news is if you find them today you could kill them and it's been so long no one would ever track you down for motive 

I'm glad I didn't kill him. I mean, I had a two year old child. I would have gone to jail forever and since it would have been premeditated I might have gone to the electric chair. In the end, there is no way I wouldn't have gotten caught. And I don't think "he killed my dog" is a good defense in court. But hate is a really powerful emotion and I was a pretty good shot at 300 yards back then.

He was an evil, evil man - in the end he got his payback even though I'm sure he never associated his cancer with my dog - I knew karma got him!


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## NewYorkDogue (Sep 27, 2011)

xellil said:


> Someone DID kill my dog once. I didn't kill him, but I had it all planned out. i got so obsessed with it my husband quit his job and we moved. I think eventually I would have crossed that line and done it. I still obsess over it even though the guy is dead. He got cancer a few years later and i hope it was a long a painful death.





magicre said:


> someone stole my dog...and i'm still looking for whoever it is.....i still look for the dog.....and it's what, 25 years later?


You guys just described my worst nightmare: someone kills my dog; someone steals my dog.

The thought of it makes my blood run cold. Truthfully, if someone tried to harm my dog, let alone kill him, I know I will lose all sanity.

In my opinion, *no mercy.*


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## chowder (Sep 7, 2008)

magicre said:


> someone stole my dog...and i'm still looking for whoever it is.....i still look for the dog.....and it's what, 25 years later?


Some things we obsess over forever. It's been 4 years since I lost those two dogs to vet error and my husband and I still can't drive by the place without talking about suing them. But, we know that's been ruled out in North Carolina. And shooting them is pretty much ruled out here, too! Although who knows, we might get away with that easier then suing them! 

Probably 25 years from now I will still be posting on forums and ranting to people to watch out for doctor error and medication overuse. And down deep I will still be second guessing and regretting my decision to trust the vets with my dogs back then and thinking "if only I knew then what I know now".


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## ciaBrysh (Dec 16, 2011)

I can understand why people are happy about this...but at the same time...I am a bit...worried about what gates it will open. This alone is a good idea, however...what's next? Jail time because you hit a dog with your dog when it isn't properly contained?


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## Itty bitty Kitty (Dec 26, 2011)

NewYorkDogue said:


> You guys just described my worst nightmare: someone kills my dog; someone steals my dog.
> 
> The thought of it makes my blood run cold. Truthfully, if someone tried to harm my dog, let alone kill him, I know I will lose all sanity.
> 
> In my opinion, *no mercy.*



OMG same here! Xellil and magicre I'm SO sorry! Those are the things that I have nightmares about. I can't even begin to predict What my actions might be. I think I'd go insane.


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

ciaBrysh said:


> I can understand why people are happy about this...but at the same time...I am a bit...worried about what gates it will open. This alone is a good idea, however...what's next? Jail time because you hit a dog with your dog when it isn't properly contained?


i think that, well, i'll speak for me....there is an implication that does not include accidents....or reactions during what could be a potentially dangerous situation...

what i'm referring to is premeditated.

that means drunk drivers, sociopaths, someone who intentionally hits my dog or kills or steals or abuses....but it has to be intentional.....

isn't that what courts are for? 

but let's at least level the playing field...that's all i'm asking....

what i want in my fantasies i know isn't realistic.....what i will accept is a court system that doesn't treat my loss as if it were a torn shirt.


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## kevin bradley (Aug 9, 2009)

The only way we'll gain any ground in the fight to punish animal abusers... is to prove to society that if kids/anyone abuses animals--especially Dogs and Cats....that they have a high propensity to do awful things to people.

I have so many mixed feelings about this angle. It almost negates what they've done to the ANIMALS. Its as if, "well, its not a big deal to us that you tortured that Dog BUT we ARE concerned about what you might do down the road to HUMANS." To me, what you've done is more than enough to lock your ass up and throw away the key. You listening, Vick? 

Yep, always pisses me off when I hear it but whatever, however we can get there I suppose.


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

kevin bradley said:


> The only way we'll gain any ground in the fight to punish animal abusers... is to prove to society that if kids/anyone abuses animals--especially Dogs and Cats....that they have a high propensity to do awful things to people.
> 
> I have so many mixed feelings about this angle. It almost negates what they've done to the ANIMALS. Its as if, "well, its not a big deal to us that you tortured that Dog BUT we ARE concerned about what you might do down the road to HUMANS." To me, what you've done is more than enough to lock your ass up and throw away the key. You listening, Vick?
> 
> Yep, always pisses me off when I hear it but whatever, however we can get there I suppose.


and yet, and yet....

vick is the eagle's quarterback and gets paid lots of money and the eagles are petitioning for him to be able to own dogs again.


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## kevin bradley (Aug 9, 2009)

what he did was so dam heinous, Re. 

Makes me sad that our society welcomed him back. 

(biting my lip as I say this)... I guess if it did anything, it shined a light on whats going on. 


I hope someone rips his head off on the field, career ending injury, whatever.


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

kevin bradley said:


> what he did was so dam heinous, Re.
> 
> Makes me sad that our society welcomed him back.
> 
> ...


i am ashamed of the city that grew me.


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## Dude and Bucks Mamma (May 14, 2011)

I am SO disgusted by the whole Vick fiasco. He should never have been let out of prison. He should never have been allowed back to the NFL. He should never be allowed to own animals again. But by this time next year I fear he will have another dog. It's disgusting.

And Wayne Pacelle... What a ****ing joke.


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## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

kevin bradley said:


> what he did was so dam heinous, Re.
> 
> Makes me sad that our society welcomed him back.
> 
> ...


I've been a football fan my whole life - people don't mess with me on Sundays in the fall  - I've never wished injury on any player no matter how much I hated him (football-wise). I learned that at a young age watching my brothers play - you always hope everyone gets up, on both sides. I think karma comes back to get us if we wish bad things on people.

Vick is the only player I've broken that rule for. Every time he goes out there I hope someone knocks his block off and they have to carry him off on a stretcher. Karma, hell.


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

xellil said:


> I've been a football fan my whole life - people don't mess with me on Sundays in the fall  - I've never wished injury on any player no matter how much I hated him (football-wise). I learned that at a young age watching my brothers play - you always hope everyone gets up, on both sides. I think karma comes back to get us if we wish bad things on people.
> 
> Vick is the only player I've broken that rule for. Every time he goes out there I hope someone knocks his block off and they have to carry him off on a stretcher. Karma, hell.


i too am a football fan. to the point that i used to have seven televisions, all tuned in to the various college bowls....i would watch college football to see who was going to win the heisman or who was going to be great or who was going to which nfl team.

i grew up with the sad sad eagles, although any philadelphian will tell you only if you live in that city can you criticise anything....LOL

but when they took vick, that was it for me. i don't know if i can wish harm on him....but i sure as hell didn't want to see him rewarded for what he did..

and the same goes for Ben Roethlisberger in pittsburgh....three times he's gotten away with either rape or forced sexual conduct with young women. three times.

he should be booted out of football.

oh, don't get me started


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## Dude and Bucks Mamma (May 14, 2011)

I have had so many people tell me, "He's changed. He learned his lesson and now he is getting on with his life. Just give him a chance".

How the hell do you know he has changed or learned his lesson? I'm sorry but men with black, evil hearts do not simply change like that. I know that he is only sorry that he got caught. I know that he wishes he had done things differently to prevent this from happening. I don't believe for a second that he is a loving, caring dog owner.


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## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

Dude and Bucks Mamma said:


> I have had so many people tell me, "He's changed. He learned his lesson and now he is getting on with his life. Just give him a chance".
> 
> How the hell do you know he has changed or learned his lesson? I'm sorry but men with black, evil hearts do not simply change like that. I know that he is only sorry that he got caught. I know that he wishes he had done things differently to prevent this from happening. I don't believe for a second that he is a loving, caring dog owner.


If he had true remorse and really understood what he did I would forgive him. But just by listening to him speak you can tell he's just saying the words - "I made a mistake" comes to mind. That was no mistake. If he doesn't fake remorse he loses millions of dollars.

My dad wasn't much of a talker, and one thing we could talk about was football. It's not going to be the same this year.


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