# How all natural are you?



## Guest

For those of you who feed raw or even premium diets, what other natural health practices do you embrace?
~do you vaccinate?
~use flea meds?
~use heartworm meds?
~use drugs such as antibiotics, or steroids?
~use any type of traditional medicines: acupuncture, chiropractic, homeopathic, herbal, etc?


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## bellamicuore

zentrainer said:


> For those of you who feed raw or even premium diets, what other natural health practices do you embrace?
> ~do you vaccinate?
> ~use flea meds?
> ~use heartworm meds?
> ~use drugs such as antibiotics, or steroids?
> ~use any type of traditional medicines: acupuncture, chiropractic, homeopathic, herbal, etc?


I am down to just the rabies vaccine. Bella has seizures and I've decided at this point to just go with what is required by law. For the same reason, I don't use flea meds (haven't seen a flea on her yet). I do use year-round heartworm meds.

I do still feed Bella kibble, along with a dehydrated raw food. Both are grain free.


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## RawFedDogs

Only the basic minimum vaccinations. That means puppy shots only. My Abby (8yo Great Dane) has had her last rabies shot. She hasn't had the other vacs in 6 years. I'm still undecided about Thor(3yo Dane) as far as rabies shot. I won't have to decide that for another year. I'm not concerned about his immunity. I'm conserned about what would happen if he ever bit someone and wasn't current on rabies vacs.

I use flea meds when I see a flea.

I use heartworm meds during mosquito season. I have it worked out to were my dog get about 4 doses/year.

I will use antibiotics or steriods if they are ever called for.

I use absolutely none of the out of the mainstream medicines. To me they are in the same category as witch doctors and voodoo priests.


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## bellamicuore

RawFedDogs said:


> has had her last rabies shot. She hasn't had the other vacs in 6 years. I'm still undecided about Thor(3yo Dane) as far as rabies shot. I won't have to decide that for another year. I'm not concerned about his immunity. I'm conserned about what would happen if he ever bit someone and wasn't current on rabies vacs



How do you get away with not vaccinating for rabies?


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## rannmiller

zentrainer said:


> For those of you who feed raw or even premium diets, what other natural health practices do you embrace?
> ~do you vaccinate?
> ~use flea meds?
> ~use heartworm meds?
> ~use drugs such as antibiotics, or steroids?
> ~use any type of traditional medicines: acupuncture, chiropractic, homeopathic, herbal, etc?


I try to only vaccinate for rabies, I had to get my older dog vaccinated when I got my new rescue or they wouldn't let me have him. Plus, my rescue came from a place where all the other dogs were coming down with kennel cough, so I didn't want to take any chances there. 
I don't use flea meds since I live in NV, no fleas and hardly any ticks here!
Heartworm, same goes for mosquitoes, not too many water-dwelling bugs in this desert. 
I will use antibiotics and steroids if necessary. 
I haven't had a need for any of the other "traditional" medicines and since I was raised by a family of doctors who practice "modern" medicine, I'm with Rawfeddogs on that one, seems like voodoo type stuff to me.


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## BoxerMommie

For those of you who feed raw or even premium diets, what other natural health practices do you embrace?
~do you vaccinate?
~use flea meds?
~use heartworm meds?
~use drugs such as antibiotics, or steroids?
~use any type of traditional medicines: acupuncture, chiropractic, homeopathic, herbal, etc?

I will vaccinate every 3 years for everything on my puppy after his 1 year puppy booster, my girl I cannot vaccinate at all due to her medical condition.

I use Frontline Plus as we have fleas here and I am highly allergic (like let's put me in the hospital allergic) to fleas so it's a must for any dog that walks through my front door, fosters and clients included.

I use heartworm meds as we do live in a mosquito populated area (my puppy was outside for 10 minutes the other night and came in with 22 mosquito bites, YIKES!)

I will use antibiotics if necessary but I do not use them for everything and give things a chance to go away on their own first, but I do also then give a probiotic while on them. Never had a reason to use steroids. I typically combine natural with "western" medicine as I believe there is a place for both it doesn't have to just be one or the other.

I use some herbal and homeopathic especially on my girl who has liver issues due to her medication and her degenerative knee condition.

I am not all one or the other, I believe there is a place for traditional medicine as well as natural medicine, I am not quick to use either, but research what would be best for whatever the problem is at the time. Some things do require prescription meds, such as both of my girl's conditions, some things can be managed with natural medicine such as one of her conditions so it's all dependent on what the problem is.


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## BoxerMommie

bellamicuore said:


> I am down to just the rabies vaccine. Bella has seizures and I've decided at this point to just go with what is required by law. For the same reason, I don't use flea meds (haven't seen a flea on her yet). I do use year-round heartworm meds.
> 
> I do still feed Bella kibble, along with a dehydrated raw food. Both are grain free.


Some people don't know, you can get a letter from your vet stating your dog has a medical condition and that giving the Rabies vaccine could be harmful so that you do not have to give it and you're still okay legality wise. This is what we do for my girl and what I did for my boy when he had seizures and had cancer.


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## domari

I get the dogs and cats their rabies shots because it's the law. 
Other than that I only do puppy shots. 

I use Advantage for fleas for one or two months in the summer. Usually we don't have a flea problem because it gets cold here in the winter. Same with heartworm, my vet doesn't push the issue except for people who travel with their pets to the south or places that have more of a heartworm problem. 

I haven't had a need for antibiotics except once when one of my dogs was in a fight and got bitten, she had some deep puncture wounds so the vet thought it was better safe than sorry. Never had a need for steroids in a long time. I had an old arthritic dog around 15 years ago that was on steroids for a while, other than that, nobody has needed them. 

As far as accupuncture, or chiropractic care, that's not available where I live that I know of.


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## RawFedDogs

bellamicuore said:


> How do you get away with not vaccinating for rabies?


I haven't gotten away with it yet. They are both due rabies shots next May. I am just not going to give one to Abby. I still haven't decided on Thor yet. Like I said, I'm not concerned about immunity. I am sure both dogs are immune and will be for the rest of their lives whether they get another shot or not.

Abby will be 9 years old next May and thats pretty old for a Great Dane so I am just not going to subject her to that.


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## Guest

*Titers*

In some states (mine fortunately) you can get a blood test that proves immunity and it's accepted by the state and you can a license and tags.

For kids you can avoid vaccines based on religious grounds, philsophical beliefs or medical issues. We haven't tested that here yet on animals. (It will be fun though)

You can't vaccinate a dog with a medical problem no matter what. It says so right on the vaccine bottle "To be given to healthy pets only".


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## bellamicuore

I'm pretty sure not all states accept titers. I'm not sure about MA (which is where I live).


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## domari

RawFedDogs said:


> I haven't gotten away with it yet. They are both due rabies shots next May. I am just not going to give one to Abby. I still haven't decided on Thor yet. Like I said, I'm not concerned about immunity. I am sure both dogs are immune and will be for the rest of their lives whether they get another shot or not.
> 
> Abby will be 9 years old next May and thats pretty old for a Great Dane so I am just not going to subject her to that.


Do you have a lot of rabies in the area where you live? Some places are stricter than others about it. If you don't have a large number or rabid animals where you live, then you should be able to not have to revaccinate them. 

I wouldn't vaccinate a 9 year old dog, that sounds risky.


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## Guest

*Nope*

But you can get the law changed so they do accept them.


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## bellamicuore

zentrainer said:


> But you can get the law changed so they do accept them.


Please tell me how? Also, does anyone know if MA accepts titers? I don't think they do. There have been several reported cases of rabies here in the past year. Bella did just get her rabies vac and it's good for 3 years.


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## Guest

Poseidon has gotten his last vaccine, I'm still debating on rabies though. He got his last rabies back in February, so I've got 3 years to decide what to do when it comes time for his next one. 

I keep Frontline Plus in the house, but I only used one dose last year, and one dose earlier this month. If we hadn't gone on vacation in a tick heavy area then I probably wouldn't have given it to him. No ticks on him, but I found one on my rear end of all places. My apartment complex sprays chemicals on the grass (yuck), and I've yet to see a flea or mosquito there. He's exposed to enough chemicals without me dousing him in them in addition to that.

We give heartworm meds only in the summer months, even here in VA where it doesn't get nearly as cold as it does at our house in MI. 

Poseidon hasn't had an antibiotic in years, he's been a very healthy dog. The only thing he gets is a glucosamin/chondroiten supplement since he does have a touch of arthritis in his front legs. Overall he's very healthy for a 12 year old dog.


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## Guest

*Changing laws*

Well, you lobby your local politicians. You cite the medical dangers of vaccines (copy studies done by the AAHA) and the low incidence of rabies. (CDC has those stats)

Rabies vaccines are not given to help dogs they are given to protect people.

Cite the other states that allow titers.

Your local representative of the HSUS might be able to help with this. Go to their website and just look for who covers your area.


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## Guest

*I might be a radical...*

Let's see, I feed raw, don't vaccinate, don't use any kinds of toxins on my pets - flea or heartworm.

I use only specific types of anesthesia. I use herbal anti-biotics and steroids.

I use many different vets (all board certified) - homeopathic, acupuncturist, chiropractor. I use a human Traditional Chinese Medicine guy, I don't mean he is human, which he is, but he works on humans. He consults with a few vets he went to school with who work at zoo's when he gives me herbs for my pets.

I use T Touch, massage, reiki, and flower essences as well. And vitamins.

I put my faith more in the medicine that has been around for thousands of years and tend to distrust allopathic medicine which brings us thalidimide, vioxx, phen phen and whatever else the latest recalls have been.

When you have the holistic view I have you also have a philosophy of survival of the fittest. I just try to make sure all my guys are the fittest.

They are all natural, that's for sure!

And this is my choice and what is right for me and mine. It's not the right choice for everyone.


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## LuvsDogs

My previous dog April died earlier this year, 7 weeks short of her 15th birthday. The last time she was vaccinated she was about 9 y/o. I had been to a workshop by a holistic vet & it was the 1st time I had heard about over vaccination. A while later 2 people I know lost their elderly dogs due to vac. The 1st was a 9 y/o GSD who suffered a heart attack shortly after vac & died, the next one was a sheltie about 10 y/o who haemoraged a couple of days after vac. He was given blood, but still died.
That made up my mind to not have April vaccinated again. A few months later I ignored 2reminders from the vet to have her annual vac done. The vet rang me up to find out why I hadn't brought her in. I explained the above reasons & an hour later he finally told me that in his opionion vaccines last for 3-4 yrs, but the kennel cough vac only lasts about 6 mths. He said that a lot of people can't remember this, so they recommend annual vac just so they can keep an eye on their clients pets & they wouldn't bring them in if they didn't have annual vaccinations.
My son's dog Sooty will be 8 in Oct. & she will have had her last vaccination. I only had her done late last year because I knew I would be getting a puppy in the coming months & wanted to be sure. Tilba is now 6 mths, had all her puppy shots & I will get her 1st annual vac then decide after that.
My cat will be 2 yrs in Sept. When she had her baby shots she had a mild reaction to the 2nd one. When I took her in for her 1st annual shot she had a bad reaction, had a temp, was very lethargic. The vet kept her in overnight & gave her a shot, can't remember what it was, but was told it would lower the protection from the vac. She is never to have the feline leukemia vac again as they said it was the likely cause.
I worm all the pets, use flea treatments & heartworm.


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## Guest

I'm sorry to hear about your dog! It takes such a long time to get over it doesn't it? I waited quite a while to get another dog but I do see dogs every day so I think that helped me be less lonely.

I think the vets are wrong about people not coming in if they don't vaccinate.
I encourage people to take their dogs in twice a year just for a bit of a look see, since they can't talk. I am willing to bet that they make more from us holistic folk.

Kennel cough is just a cold and untreated goes away in two weeks. There are the odd cases that do get sick and sometimes the colds turn into serious infections. Mostly the very young and very old. Just like people.

On a discussion group that I am on an author was on about 5 years ago to talk about health and nutrition in dogs and she was big on no vaccines. She was vilified. She was just back on the group and the tone was completely different. We are learning...slowly.


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## domari

zentrainer said:


> Well, you lobby your local politicians. You cite the medical dangers of vaccines (copy studies done by the AAHA) and the low incidence of rabies. (CDC has those stats)
> 
> Rabies vaccines are not given to help dogs they are given to protect people.
> 
> Cite the other states that allow titers.
> 
> Your local representative of the HSUS might be able to help with this. Go to their website and just look for who covers your area.


The CDC keeps track of "documented" rabid animals, they have no clue about the suspected animals which are running everywhere around here. 

Where I live we don't have dogs or cats on the list, it's rabid skunks, bats, and once in a while another rabid animal shows up. 

I get rabies shots here because the odds are higher, but when I lived in larger cities with little to no confirmed rabies cases, I didnt think the shots were so important. 

I'm not so concerned here about the dogs having their shots. My biggest problem are the cats who are allowed to roam the neighborhood. The police refuse to try to enforce the rabies laws here, the only time they step in is if a person gets bit. Other than that, they never check.


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## Guest

I think we've had one case of rabies in a human here in 50 years, so I just don't see it as a valid concern. Certainly not worth the problems associated with vaccines (cancer, epilepsy, allergies are the 3 most common.)

I am lobbying for no mandatory rabies vaccines or titers and education for people instead as to how to behave around rabid animals.

We have had very few cases of reported dogs or cats with rabies either, just a few raccoons and TN is a pretty rural place.


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## RawFedDogs

zentrainer said:


> We have had very few cases of reported dogs or cats with rabies either, just a few raccoons and TN is a pretty rural place.


I read somewhere recently that rabies has been wiped out in the domestic dog population in this country. It has been several years since a domestic dog had it. There are still wild animals with rabies so it COULD possibly re-enter the domestic dog population in the future but all in all it's just not a serious concern.

Rabies is kind of a self limiting disease because animals that have it die pretty quickly.


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## threedognight

*from the country*

We live in a very rural area in central TX. I do all puppy vaccs and rabies since it is a valid concern for my dogs.
I do year round hw treatment because we have mosquitoes all year round. Sophie is hw positive(she was that way when we rescued her) and I am doing the hw dose every 30 days as her treatment. She will be heartworm free within two years. With her issues(IBD, seizures) she is not stable enough imo for the traditional treatment. Both Lucky and Brody are on the heart safe dose of every 45 days. 
I do not use the monthly flea treatments; I figure anything that gets into their bloodstream and kills thing when the bite my dog cant be that great for them. I have yet to have a flea problem, We have a flea here and there but I consider that more of an inconvenience to me than for them. 
Sophie is a frequent user of antibiotics but I try to keep use of meds to a minimum.


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## bellamicuore

RawFedDogs said:


> I read somewhere recently that rabies has been wiped out in the domestic dog population in this country. It has been several years since a domestic dog had it.QUOTE]
> 
> Well, this clearly is not true. MA alone has had at least 2 cases of rabies in dogs in the past year. I tried to find a link to include, but I can't find one. But I was volunteering at the MSPCA (I lasted a day) and they had flyers up all over the facility with a picture of the dog that had rabies.


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## Guest

*You lasted a day?*

That cracked me up! I lasted about 30 minutes at the front desk before they made me go back and clean cages and walk dogs.

I just lost it when people would say "Well, the last 3 times I brought my puppies in here I didn't have to fill out these forms."

You are supposed to be polite and welcoming so that people will bring their animals in and not dump them somewhere but I swear, I was ready to run around the counter and start kicking people in the shins.

We euthanize 60 dogs here every day. I want these people to have to see that when they bring their dogs in. Let them be the ones to hold them while they are euthanized instead of me!

Luckily there are lots of jobs and I can work with dogs, temperament test and help people adopt. I am just no longer allowed to work the surrender desk!


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## bellamicuore

zentrainer said:


> That cracked me up! I lasted about 30 minutes at the front desk before they made me go back and clean cages and walk dogs.
> 
> I just lost it when people would say "Well, the last 3 times I brought my puppies in here I didn't have to fill out these forms."
> 
> You are supposed to be polite and welcoming so that people will bring their animals in and not dump them somewhere but I swear, I was ready to run around the counter and start kicking people in the shins.
> 
> We euthanize 60 dogs here every day. I want these people to have to see that when they bring their dogs in. Let them be the ones to hold them while they are euthanized instead of me!
> 
> Luckily there are lots of jobs and I can work with dogs, temperament test and help people adopt. I am just no longer allowed to work the surrender desk!


I actually only lasted 3 hours. They were talking about putting down a pitbull and I just couldn't see why. I spent some time with her and I was very upset. They since put her up for adoption. But I don't know what happened. I'm not seeing her listed anymore. I really hope she found a great home.


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## RawFedDogs

bellamicuore said:


> RawFedDogs said:
> 
> 
> 
> Well, this clearly is not true. MA alone has had at least 2 cases of rabies in dogs in the past year.
> 
> 
> 
> Well it must just be in Georgia then. I was sure it was nationwide but I guess not. I can't remember where I read it. I'll look as see what I can find.
Click to expand...


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## Guest

RawFedDogs said:


> Well it must just be in Georgia then. I was sure it was nationwide but I guess not. I can't remember where I read it. I'll look as see what I can find.


You're not imagining things, I know I've read that recently as well. For the life of me I can't remember where I read it, it might have even been a short blurb on the news or something like that.


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## bellamicuore

LPacker79 said:


> You're not imagining things, I know I've read that recently as well. For the life of me I can't remember where I read it, it might have even been a short blurb on the news or something like that.


Maybe the article came out before the dog here was diagnosed with rabies? I think it was around April or May.


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## bellamicuore

*Rabies*

I did another search. Here's what I found:
http://www.topix.net/pets/dogs/2008/06/two-cases-of-rabies-reported-in-county
http://www.ci.newton.ma.us/health/spring_2002_rabies.htm this one mentions a puppy in MA having rabies last year.
http://wbztv.com/watercooler/pets/rabies.cape.cod.2.714924.html


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## domari

zentrainer said:


> I think we've had one case of rabies in a human here in 50 years, so I just don't see it as a valid concern. Certainly not worth the problems associated with vaccines (cancer, epilepsy, allergies are the 3 most common.)
> 
> I am lobbying for no mandatory rabies vaccines or titers and education for people instead as to how to behave around rabid animals.
> 
> We have had very few cases of reported dogs or cats with rabies either, just a few raccoons and TN is a pretty rural place.


We have had a lot of rabid bats, some skunks and raccoons. A couple years ago there was a horse with rabies. 

My biggest concern would be if a bat got into our house, which has happened a few times. The cats would automatically try to catch it, the dogs might too if it landed on the floor. There are enough rabid bats in this area to worry about this really happening. 

We have skunks in the woods behind the house, and know there was a rabid skunk shot last year two houses away. 

I'd love to not have to give rabies vaccines, but I know the risks are still in the area.


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## domari

RawFedDogs said:


> I read somewhere recently that rabies has been wiped out in the domestic dog population in this country. It has been several years since a domestic dog had it. There are still wild animals with rabies so it COULD possibly re-enter the domestic dog population in the future but all in all it's just not a serious concern.
> 
> Rabies is kind of a self limiting disease because animals that have it die pretty quickly.



New York state has had a confirmed rabid dog and seven rabid cats so far between January and June of this year. The NY state dept of health website has a list of all the rabid animals confirmed so far this year.


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## RawFedDogs

domari said:


> I'd love to not have to give rabies vaccines, but I know the risks are still in the area.


I live in a rural area with a lot of wildlife. I don't know of any recent rabid animals but there are a lot of possible carriers.

The one thing that people tend to forget is that if you had your dog vaccinated for rabies sometime after he turned 6 months old, he is immune to rabies. He will be for AT LEAST 7 years. Research proves that. Most probably he will be immune for life. So no matter how many rabid animals there are in your area, your dog is immune whether he got his vaccination a month ago or 7 years ago. There is research going on now that will most likely prove that immunity lasts 10 years and beyond.

We tend to get the mindset that if he wasn't vaccinated in 3 years he is in susceptable. I have to correct my own thinking on that from time to time.


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## bellamicuore

RawFedDogs said:


> The one thing that people tend to forget is that if you had your dog vaccinated for rabies sometime after he turned 6 months old, he is immune to rabies. He will be for AT LEAST 7 years. Research proves that. Most probably he will be immune for life. So no matter how many rabid animals there are in your area, your dog is immune whether he got his vaccination a month ago or 7 years ago.


See, now, this is not a fact. I completely see where your coming from. I don't want to vaccinate any more than necessary either. But there is nothing concrete anywhere about this. Certainly nothing about exact length they're immune. Everyone says something different. And not all dogs maintain immunity the same. AND even titers can be confusing. I agree that our dogs are overvaccinated, but I think we need to be careful what information we're putting out there as 'facts'.


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## RawFedDogs

bellamicuore said:


> But there is nothing concrete anywhere about this. Certainly nothing about exact length they're immune.


No, there isn't but there is something out there that says they are immune for at least 7 years. There is nothing magical about one year or 3 years that causes immunity to go away. Once that study was published the AVMA was pushed to only require rabies vacs every 7 years and of course they balked big time. A compromise of 3 years was reached. I'll see if I can dig up that information. My favorites list has gotten so full, its hard to find anything.



> And not all dogs maintain immunity the same.


Not all dogs will even become immune after vacs. A few dogs can be vaccinated 100 times and never gain immunity.



> AND even titers can be confusing.


Titers isn't confusing, its just misunderstood. Titers measures antibodies against a specific disease. The misunderstanding is because if Titers doesn't find antibodies, doesn't mean the dog isn't immune. There are memory cells in the blood that can quickly create antibodies when the need arises. Those memory cells can't be indentified as to what disease they are protecting against. Soooo ... if Titers finds antibodies, the dog is immune but if it doesn't, the dog may are may not be immune. 



> I agree that our dogs are overvaccinated, but I think we need to be careful what information we're putting out there as 'facts'.


I am careful.  <--- a smiley face


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## domari

bellamicuore said:


> See, now, this is not a fact. I completely see where your coming from. I don't want to vaccinate any more than necessary either. But there is nothing concrete anywhere about this. Certainly nothing about exact length they're immune. Everyone says something different. And not all dogs maintain immunity the same. AND even titers can be confusing. I agree that our dogs are overvaccinated, but I think we need to be careful what information we're putting out there as 'facts'.


I rather be safe than sorry. I know for a fact there are rabid animals here where I live, so that means there are a lot more rabid animals that haven't been found and tested. 

Also, in order to bring dogs to any state parks, camping areas, or when traveling to another state, they have to be vaccinated. My husband works in a health care facility and brings the dogs to work with him, he must have proof of rabies shots in order to do that. 

Sure, it would be nice not to have to vaccinate them, but the laws say we have to. As long as there are animals with rabies running around, the laws will never be changed.


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## Guest

When we went on vacation a few weeks ago, we rented a house on VA's 2nd largest lake. The real estate agent who was handling the lease required vaccination records. 

I didn't take Poseidon into the vet for his last round of vaccines, my BF did. When I was reviewing his vet records (which I had the vet print out for me), I was horrified by all the vaccines he received this year, many of which I wouldn't have authorized. Coronavirus, giardia (I live in the DC suburbs for god's sake, not many stagnant bodies of water around), and Lyme disease as well as the "core" vaccines. My poor boy has been vaccinated half to death this year. 

It seems like so many vets are vaccine crazy, and most of the public buys into it. I don't even remember when the last time was I had a vaccine, I can remember getting a tetanus shot about 6 or 7 years ago when I had cellulitis in my leg, but that's it. I'm healthy and fine, but they're trying to tell me my dog needs this huge plethora of vaccines every year? I'm not buyin' it.


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## bellamicuore

I want to be clear- I agree with what people are saying about overvaccination. I'm down to just having Bella get vaccinated for rabies only. I've just seen so much conflicting information on how long dogs are actually protected. There's no actual facts about this that I've seen. I opted to have Bella not get DHLPP. My vet spoke with me about this at length. She was most concerned about the Lepto and Distempter, saying that she had seen recent cases of it from dogs that hadn't been vaccinated. I told her I'd re-evaluate it next year, but at this time I didn't feel it was necessary to have her vaccinated.


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## Guest

This one actually is the current "fact". The AAHA (I may have the letters wrong - it's the American Animal Hospital Association) did a study and found that a rabies vaccine lasts *at least* 7 years. (that's how long the study was.)

This one is fairly easy to find on the internet also. I want to say the study was done at Hayward???

And the question to go back to is, how much of a risk is rabies to humans? As much as driving to work? Smoking? Drinking? Eating fast food? Guns? 
I don't think so. The whole premise is invalid IMO.

P.S. If you are going to look this up on the internet, here is a suggestion. Rather than use Google, use Good Search. You input your charity of choice and for every search that charity gets like .01 cents. The ASPCA has made $16,000 from searches! (I think it's a really good search engine also.)


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## bellamicuore

zentrainer said:


> This one actually is the current "fact". The AAHA (I may have the letters wrong - it's the American Animal Hospital Association) did a study and found that a rabies vaccine lasts *at least* 7 years. (that's how long the study was.)
> 
> This one is fairly easy to find on the internet also. I want to say the study was done at Hayward???
> 
> And the question to go back to is, how much of a risk is rabies to humans? As much as driving to work? Smoking? Drinking? Eating fast food? Guns?
> I don't think so. The whole premise is invalid IMO.
> 
> P.S. If you are going to look this up on the internet, here is a suggestion. Rather than use Google, use Good Search. You input your charity of choice and for every search that charity gets like .01 cents. The ASPCA has made $16,000 from searches! (I think it's a really good search engine also.)


Thanks for the tip. I do use goodsearch. I don't understand why then, if it's been proven and it's a fact that the vaccine lasts 7 years, we are required to vaccinate every 3 years.


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## Guest

Whenever I am baffled by something like this, I use this mantra:

"Follow the money, follow the money."

Vets are terified right now. Here they don't even like that we went to vaccinating every 3 years. They are afraid no one will bring their dogs in except once every 3 years.

They (the AVMA) are trying to pass regulations against dog trainers doing anything as simple as even showing a client how to clip a dog's nails. They want that to be considered practicing veterinary medicine.

To be fair, vets don't make a whole lot of money. The national average for a female vet is $40,000 a year and for a male vet $60,000. Yet their education cost the same as a doctor of human medicine.

Still....my dog shouldn't have to pay.

Oh and if you check out the oath vets take, there is nothing about "do no harm" in it. Oddly it talks about protecting the public.


----------



## bellamicuore

zentrainer said:


> Whenever I am baffled by something like this, I use this mantra:
> 
> "Follow the money, follow the money."
> 
> Vets are terified right now. Here they don't even like that we went to vaccinating every 3 years. They are afraid no one will bring their dogs in except once every 3 years.
> 
> They (the AVMA) are trying to pass regulations against dog trainers doing anything as simple as even showing a client how to clip a dog's nails. They want that to be considered practicing veterinary medicine.
> 
> To be fair, vets don't make a whole lot of money. The national average for a female vet is $40,000 a year and for a male vet $60,000. Yet their education cost the same as a doctor of human medicine.
> 
> Still....my dog shouldn't have to pay.
> 
> Oh and if you check out the oath vets take, there is nothing about "do no harm" in it. Oddly it talks about protecting the public.


But it's the law that says we have to vaccinate against rabies every three years.


----------



## domari

zentrainer said:


> This one actually is the current "fact". The AAHA (I may have the letters wrong - it's the American Animal Hospital Association) did a study and found that a rabies vaccine lasts *at least* 7 years. (that's how long the study was.)
> 
> This one is fairly easy to find on the internet also. I want to say the study was done at Hayward???
> 
> And the question to go back to is, how much of a risk is rabies to humans? As much as driving to work? Smoking? Drinking? Eating fast food? Guns?
> I don't think so. The whole premise is invalid IMO.
> 
> P.S. If you are going to look this up on the internet, here is a suggestion. Rather than use Google, use Good Search. You input your charity of choice and for every search that charity gets like .01 cents. The ASPCA has made $16,000 from searches! (I think it's a really good search engine also.)


I vaccinate my dogs and cats against rabies so that THEY don't get it.


----------



## domari

zentrainer said:


> Whenever I am baffled by something like this, I use this mantra:
> 
> "Follow the money, follow the money."
> 
> Vets are terified right now. Here they don't even like that we went to vaccinating every 3 years. They are afraid no one will bring their dogs in except once every 3 years.



In NY there's a law that every county have free rabies clinics at least every four months. I never bring my animals to the vet for rabies shot since they are always free. The vets here aren't making money any off rabies shots.


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## Guest

Here in TN, by law ONLY a vet can give a rabies shot. (I actually thought that was a federal law)

We have discount clinics that save you 4 dollars per shot. I once stood in line for over an hour with 3 very unhappy cats and realized it wasn't worth the savings.

Vets do volunteer at these clinics which are held once a year in spring, at schools and they publicize it in your electric bill.

If we were going to play the odds I think the bookmakers would say the odds of your pets getting rabies (not matter how rural the area you live) are nonexistent when compared to the odds that your pet will suffer from a side effect of repeated rabies vaccines.

I also think most vets don't know that much about rabies or vaccines. This is actually the jurisdiction of Public Health. I can study rabies and understand it and I'll leave the heavy medical science to my vet to keep updated on (I would never understand it anyway!)

Rabies vaccines are political and that is an arena I am familiar with. Luckily there are also some vets who are politically motivated enough to get invloved with this as well, which is why we have the new vaccine studies and new rabies vaccine laws in many states.


----------



## Guest

Just wanted to clarify that while I readily advise my clients against vaccines because the risk is so low, there are some things they ask me about that I tell them they have to do their own research on.

Heartworm meds would be one. I sure don't use this type of toxin on my dog. They call it a preventative but it doesn't prevent heartworm, just kills it at an early stage. So we posion our pets each month on the off chance they may have it.

Before I made my decision though I read everything there was written about heartworm including documents from a drug company obtained under the Freedom Of Information Act.

I met with 2 vets and a scientist to discuss it. I made the decision not to use it (and we have mosquitoes all year round). But if a client asks I tell them to do the research and see what they think.

What's right for my pets might not be right for them.


----------



## RawFedDogs

Here is my understanding of mosquitoes and heartworms. In the spring, mosquitoes must have 21 days of temps consistantly above 57 degrees F for eggs to hatch and mosquito larvae to become adult mosquitoes. Once that happens, it is possible for these mosquitoes to inject heartworm larvae into our dogs.

Heartworm "prevenative" kills the larvae that has been in the body for less than 45 days. After 45 days the larvae become adult heartworms and the "prevenative" won't kill them.

Here's what I do. After the 21 days of temps above 57 Degrees, I start counting again. I take my dogs for a heartworm check about 40 days after the 21 days. (I hope this makes sense.) If they are negative (they always have been) then they are good for another 45 days. 6 weeks (42 days) after the heartworm test, I give them their first "prevenative". This year it was July 3rd and was about 106 days after I figure mosquito eggs hatched. I will give them a prevenative every 6 weeks (42 days) until the temperature is pretty consistantly below 57 degrees. Around here this is usually around the middle of November. I usually works out that my dogs get 3 or 4 heartworm "treatments" a year. Much better than 12 and I sleep better because I think they are pretty safe this way.


----------



## BoxerMommie

RawFedDogs said:


> Here is my understanding of mosquitoes and heartworms. In the spring, mosquitoes must have 21 days of temps consistantly above 57 degrees F for eggs to hatch and mosquito larvae to become adult mosquitoes. Once that happens, it is possible for these mosquitoes to inject heartworm larvae into our dogs.
> 
> Heartworm "prevenative" kills the larvae that has been in the body for less than 45 days. After 45 days the larvae become adult heartworms and the "prevenative" won't kill them.
> 
> Here's what I do. After the 21 days of temps above 57 Degrees, I start counting again. I take my dogs for a heartworm check about 40 days after the 21 days. (I hope this makes sense.) If they are negative (they always have been) then they are good for another 45 days. 6 weeks (42 days) after the heartworm test, I give them their first "prevenative". This year it was July 3rd and was about 106 days after I figure mosquito eggs hatched. I will give them a prevenative every 6 weeks (42 days) until the temperature is pretty consistantly below 57 degrees. Around here this is usually around the middle of November. I usually works out that my dogs get 3 or 4 heartworm "treatments" a year. Much better than 12 and I sleep better because I think they are pretty safe this way.



Wish that was possible here, unfortunately we rarely get temps consistently below 57 degrees even in the winter months, so it's 12 months a year for flea/tick treatment as well as heartworm for my dogs.


----------



## RawFedDogs

BoxerMommie said:


> Wish that was possible here, unfortunately we rarely get temps consistently below 57 degrees even in the winter months, so it's 12 months a year for flea/tick treatment as well as heartworm for my dogs.


Yeah, but stop complaining ... you got fantastic weather!!!


----------



## BoxerMommie

RawFedDogs said:


> Yeah, but stop complaining ... you got fantastic weather!!!


Sure...if you consider 115 degrees outside fantastic weather then it's just peachy.


----------



## Guest

According to the documents obtained through the Freedom of Information Act, the drug companies actually tested the lowest dose that would last for 2 months and then prescribed it for every month.

I think the biggest problem is that there is no test to detect the larvae at an early stage.

And gosh, no one seems interested in developing a test. I don't think that would profit the drug companies at all.


----------



## domari

zentrainer said:


> Here in TN, by law ONLY a vet can give a rabies shot. (I actually thought that was a federal law)
> 
> We have discount clinics that save you 4 dollars per shot. I once stood in line for over an hour with 3 very unhappy cats and realized it wasn't worth the savings.
> 
> Vets do volunteer at these clinics which are held once a year in spring, at schools and they publicize it in your electric bill.
> 
> If we were going to play the odds I think the bookmakers would say the odds of your pets getting rabies (not matter how rural the area you live) are nonexistent when compared to the odds that your pet will suffer from a side effect of repeated rabies vaccines.
> 
> I also think most vets don't know that much about rabies or vaccines. This is actually the jurisdiction of Public Health. I can study rabies and understand it and I'll leave the heavy medical science to my vet to keep updated on (I would never understand it anyway!)
> 
> Rabies vaccines are political and that is an arena I am familiar with. Luckily there are also some vets who are politically motivated enough to get invloved with this as well, which is why we have the new vaccine studies and new rabies vaccine laws in many states.


The law is the same in NY, only vets can give rabies shots. So the vets give the shots at the free clinics which are usually held at a local fire house or public building of some kind. 
The shots are completely free, but they have a bucket for donations if anyone wants to chip in they can. 
The lines aren't always that long, depending on what time of day or where they're given. I live a couple blocks from the fire house, so we'll walk the dogs down there, wait in line for 15 minutes or so, then walk home. The cats I'll bring in the car since I can't carry the crate that far. 
I live in a very small town, so we don't have hundreds of people showing up for shots at one time. I've waited much longer in a vets waiting room than I've ever waited for free rabies shots.

Here in NY each county MUST offer free clinics at least every four months. They're held in many of the towns around the county the exact same week of that month. 

Yes the odds are slim that a pet might get rabies, it still happens. If everyone stopped getting the vaccines, then the odds will go up that more pets will get rabies.


----------



## domari

RawFedDogs said:


> Here is my understanding of mosquitoes and heartworms. In the spring, mosquitoes must have 21 days of temps consistantly above 57 degrees F for eggs to hatch and mosquito larvae to become adult mosquitoes. Once that happens, it is possible for these mosquitoes to inject heartworm larvae into our dogs.
> 
> Heartworm "prevenative" kills the larvae that has been in the body for less than 45 days. After 45 days the larvae become adult heartworms and the "prevenative" won't kill them.
> 
> Here's what I do. After the 21 days of temps above 57 Degrees, I start counting again. I take my dogs for a heartworm check about 40 days after the 21 days. (I hope this makes sense.) If they are negative (they always have been) then they are good for another 45 days. 6 weeks (42 days) after the heartworm test, I give them their first "prevenative". This year it was July 3rd and was about 106 days after I figure mosquito eggs hatched. I will give them a prevenative every 6 weeks (42 days) until the temperature is pretty consistantly below 57 degrees. Around here this is usually around the middle of November. I usually works out that my dogs get 3 or 4 heartworm "treatments" a year. Much better than 12 and I sleep better because I think they are pretty safe this way.



We have a lot more heartworm cases here in NY than they do in AZ. So it's not all about how hot it is. Buffalo has heartworm, and it's really cold up there! It's a lot dryer in AZ than in NY, but you'd think the cold weather in Buffalo would kill it all off pretty fast. 

This is for 2004
Arizona heartworm cases 462 , NY had 2,519.


----------



## BoxerMommie

domari said:


> We have a lot more heartworm cases here in NY than they do in AZ. So it's not all about how hot it is. Buffalo has heartworm, and it's really cold up there! It's a lot dryer in AZ than in NY, but you'd think the cold weather in Buffalo would kill it all off pretty fast.
> 
> This is for 2004
> Arizona heartworm cases 462 , NY had 2,519.


Depends on where one is at in AZ. I live in the #1 heartworm county in the state. I realize that not all mosquitos carry heartworms, but to give you an idea, my dog was out for FIVE minutes the other night and came in with 27 mosquito bites! FIVE minutes. I finally started putting dog mosquito repellent on him but they're HORRIBLE here in the summer for a couple of months. I live in a large farming area and people irrigate so they have their land completely flooded which then breeds mosquitos and my county won't fog until they get a case of West Nile (which hasn't happened in the 3 years I've been here) and in our subdivision we have drainage areas but they're simply grassy depressions in the ground so the water goes there instead of the streets which is great however then those depressions just turn into lakes basically which again just breed the mosquitos so it's REALLY bad in my area since the county isn't proactive about it. Then add that it doesn't get cold in my area ever and it's just a recipe for mosquito heaven. Like I said, just depends where in AZ you are on how bad they get. Shoot, I had 7 bites the other morning and I never even went outside, that's just from being in the house and opening the door once in awhile for the dogs to go in and out.


----------



## domari

BoxerMommie said:


> Depends on where one is at in AZ. I live in the #1 heartworm county in the state. I realize that not all mosquitos carry heartworms, but to give you an idea, my dog was out for FIVE minutes the other night and came in with 27 mosquito bites! FIVE minutes. I finally started putting dog mosquito repellent on him but they're HORRIBLE here in the summer for a couple of months. I live in a large farming area and people irrigate so they have their land completely flooded which then breeds mosquitos and my county won't fog until they get a case of West Nile (which hasn't happened in the 3 years I've been here) and in our subdivision we have drainage areas but they're simply grassy depressions in the ground so the water goes there instead of the streets which is great however then those depressions just turn into lakes basically which again just breed the mosquitos so it's REALLY bad in my area since the county isn't proactive about it. Then add that it doesn't get cold in my area ever and it's just a recipe for mosquito heaven. Like I said, just depends where in AZ you are on how bad they get. Shoot, I had 7 bites the other morning and I never even went outside, that's just from being in the house and opening the door once in awhile for the dogs to go in and out.


Yeah it probably depends on how much desert there is. Mosquitos need water to breed. 

I was really surprised to find out how much heartworm there was in Buffalo compared to central NY where I live. Maybe because of the lakes up there. I thought it would be so cold up there that nothing would live. NY City has a lot of heartworm too, but probably because of it;s population and location near more water. 

I was also told by the vet that larger cities will have more heartworm cases just because there are a larger number of dogs. Just like larger cities have more crimes because there are more people, they will also have more dogs, and more animal diseases. The statistics tell the NUMBER of cases, not the percentage. 

Another thing that I was told, is that cities will have more dogs coming in from other places. In Buffalo there might be more dogs belonging to "snowbirds" the people who live in the south all winter and up north in the summer. So if they live in Florida for 6 months, their dogs might get heartworm down there, and bring it back up here.


----------



## BoxerMommie

domari said:


> Yeah it probably depends on how much desert there is. Mosquitos need water to breed.
> 
> I was really surprised to find out how much heartworm there was in Buffalo compared to central NY where I live. Maybe because of the lakes up there. I thought it would be so cold up there that nothing would live. NY City has a lot of heartworm too, but probably because of it;s population and location near more water.
> 
> I was also told by the vet that larger cities will have more heartworm cases just because there are a larger number of dogs. Just like larger cities have more crimes because there are more people, they will also have more dogs, and more animal diseases. The statistics tell the NUMBER of cases, not the percentage.
> 
> Another thing that I was told, is that cities will have more dogs coming in from other places. In Buffalo there might be more dogs belonging to "snowbirds" the people who live in the south all winter and up north in the summer. So if they live in Florida for 6 months, their dogs might get heartworm down there, and bring it back up here.


Well where I am it's desert, but we get "monsoons" in the summer time and no drainage areas so the water just pools and turns the drainage ditches into lakes so that's why it gets so bad for a couple of months in the summer here, it's from all of the rain and the poor drainage areas that they have here.


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## rockymtsweetie82

Only rabies shots? What about the other shots that the vet pushes on you during check ups? Distemper? I own three pretty young dogs and they've had all their puppy shots, but my mother, when she goes to the vet, gets what they say the dogs need: Heartworm, Flea treatments, shots, etc. Why do they say it's needed so much? Is it absolutely necessary for my dog to live a normal healthy life? Or does it affect my dog in a harmful way, as to how long she'd be living?


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## BoxerMommie

Rabies shots in most places have to legally be given so the vet legally is obligated to give it in some places. The others are not a legality issue so you have the right to say no (which I do) and leave it at that. If your mother chooses to do it without having done her own research that's fine, but vaccinating every year is the old way of thinking.


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## rockymtsweetie82

But what about Distemper? I'm a little confused still, and I apologize. I was always told distemper is something a dog or cat can aquire over time? I understand Rabies to be necessary, and I agree. But the others aren't really necessary why?


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## BoxerMommie

rockymtsweetie82 said:


> But what about Distemper? I'm a little confused still, and I apologize. I was always told distemper is something a dog or cat can aquire over time? I understand Rabies to be necessary, and I agree. But the others aren't really necessary why?


Because once they're vaccinated there is evidence that the vaccation is good for like 7 years. Point being is yearly is WAY too much, do your children get vaccinated yearly? No, because it isn't necessary. Now the AVMA is recommending every 3 years for everything instead of yearly but a huge portion of the vet's income is vaccinations so many vets still push for once a year. The immunity lasts longer than 12 months, and in most cases longer than 3 years, hence the reason many have stopped vaccinating yearly.

You can also get titers done to see what their level of immunity is to see if a vaccination is necessary.


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## domari

rockymtsweetie82 said:


> Only rabies shots? What about the other shots that the vet pushes on you during check ups? Distemper? I own three pretty young dogs and they've had all their puppy shots, but my mother, when she goes to the vet, gets what they say the dogs need: Heartworm, Flea treatments, shots, etc. Why do they say it's needed so much? Is it absolutely necessary for my dog to live a normal healthy life? Or does it affect my dog in a harmful way, as to how long she'd be living?


The vet shouldn't "push" anything at all. I won't go to a vet that tells me I have to get certain things that I don't agree with. It's important to find a vet that has the same ideas on animal care as you do. Vets have different philosphy on what's needed and what's not. 
I've always given my dogs and cats vaccines myself (other than rabies). There are a lot of vets that have a fit about that, some won't accept owner given vaccines. If a vet doesn't like the fact I give the shots myself, fine, I find another vet. 
There are more and more holistic vets out there too. If you want to stick with a more natural approach to animal care, check out the holistic vets and see what they have to say.


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## BoxerMommie

My vet has given me her opinion that she still believes yearly vaccines are beneficial however when I declined she was okay with that. She gave me her opinion and then left it alone. I think that is okay. We don't always agree on everything, but she respects my opinion and position and in the end as long as I have sound reasoning and it isn't harmful she is usually okay to go along with that. So I guess it just depends on one's idea of "push".


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## domari

BoxerMommie said:


> My vet has given me her opinion that she still believes yearly vaccines are beneficial however when I declined she was okay with that. She gave me her opinion and then left it alone. I think that is okay. We don't always agree on everything, but she respects my opinion and position and in the end as long as I have sound reasoning and it isn't harmful she is usually okay to go along with that. So I guess it just depends on one's idea of "push".



As long as you and your vet can agree to disagree, then that's fine. My definition of "push" is when the vet says the animal has to have this or that, or just gives the shots, then explains what was given. I've seen vets that already had the syringes laid out and ready to give if someone was in for a yearly checkup. I know a lot of pet owners who said they get shots at the vet because the vet said they had to. To me, that's pushing it.


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## lorih1770

I switched vets a few years ago for that exact reason. The old vet really pushed ALL vaccines. I am still absolutely furious, at the time my 13 yr old husky had her shots in April, in May she had a cancerous thyroid tumor. The desk said she has to have all of her shots before they would do surgery. Well she had her shots only a few weeks before, they realized they made a mistake and supposedly corrected it. When I picked up my dog they had given her ALL of her shots! First, WHY would you even want to give a dog having MAJOR surgery shots??? And now she had cancer and 2 rounds of shots a month apart. Well, she started having liver faliure. The vet said liver disease because she was old, but I KNOW it was the shots. Nikki did come out of it and was healthy and happy for over 2 years afterwards. They were SD pushers too. 

My new vet agrees about the vaccs. My other husky since 12 yrs (also had a cancerous tumor removed) gets no shots ever again. I beleive there's a good probablility both dogs had cancer due to the old vet over vaccinating. I did tons of research when Nikki had cancer about nutrition and vaccs. 

My two young dogs got puppy shots, 3 yr. rabies (law requires), and we will do a titers for distemper when the 3 yr rabies is due. They are all on 4-5 months of HW preventative. We are in the midwest and I volunteer for 2 rescues and see the number of HW + dogs that come into rescue. I don't use any flea stuff. If they get fleas, we will do a natural treatment. Knock on wood, no fleas this year.


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## rockymtsweetie82

I see. I understand a lot better and I appreciate you taking the time to educate me! I will talk to my vet about whether he agrees or not or will at least allow me to have my own beliefs where my own dogs are concerned. He's the kind that already has the syringes laid out and waiting and then gives the shots before explaining what they are. If he has a problem, I'll switch. He's expensive anyways. I only liked him because he's the only one I know. The one thing I don't like, and it could be all in my head, is how come my animals get sick AFTER going to the vet? They are fine all year long and go in for a check up or a "worry" of mine, and then bam. Sick. Lethargic. It boggles the mind. I've had dogs before that got vaccinated and never got sick or anything so why ALL my dogs now? It's weird to me.


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## BoxerMommie

My girl got sick last year after going in for her check up but since she has VF they do not vaccinate VF dogs at that office so it was just a coincidence for us. She's immune compromised and brought home an upper respiratory infection. Oddly enough she did the best it was gone in a couple of days, my foster and my puppy on the other hand had it for about a month. But yeah in our case no shots were given it was just a fluke.


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## skippydog

*Rabies Challenge Fund*

The following site is a must!! --- rabieschallengefund.org 
The goal is to extend the required interval for rabies boosters to 5 and then to 7 years!! The website speaks for itself.


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## ultimatek9

For those of you who feed raw or even premium diets, what other natural health practices do you embrace?
*I feed all of my (13) dogs a raw diet.*
~do you vaccinate? *Not conventional. My dogs receive nosodes.*
~use flea meds? *Only if we have an outbreak that I can't control naturally.*
~use heartworm meds? *homeopathic, not chemical*
~use drugs such as antibiotics, or steroids? *homeopathy/herbs if needed (arnica, white willow bark, etc.)*
~use any type of traditional medicines: acupuncture, chiropractic, homeopathic, herbal, etc? *My dogs receive the following treatments: homoepathic, chiropractic, acupunture, chinese herbs, reiki, and bio feedback. I recently attended a seminar on T-Touch, and have been learning more about using it.*


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## TurnerPack

All mine get all vaccinnes for now. Not much fleas/ticks here in Nevada so none of that. I am still unsure about how I am going to vaccinate them or not vaccinate them in the future.


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## rannmiller

TurnerPack said:


> Not much fleas/ticks here in Nevada so none of that.\


Yeah, you gotta love that about Nevada! Which part are you from? I'm from Reno.


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## TurnerPack

rannmiller said:


> Yeah, you gotta love that about Nevada! Which part are you from? I'm from Reno.


Yeah! It gets hot but it has its advantages as well! Lol Las Vegas here


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## RawFedDogs

ultimatek9 said:


> My dogs receive the following treatments: homoepathic, chiropractic, acupunture, chinese herbs, reiki, and bio feedback. I recently attended a seminar on T-Touch, and have been learning for about using it.


I'm sorry your dogs have such bad health. Which raw diet are you feeding them?


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## rannmiller

TurnerPack said:


> Yeah! It gets hot but it has its advantages as well! Lol Las Vegas here


Oh man, LV does get super hot! Not that Reno doesn't but still... I also believe it's the lack of _any _moisture that keeps the fleas at bay here!


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## LoveNewfies

We are very natural. The only vaccine my dogs receive is rabies as required by law. Aside from that, none. 
We do feed a raw diet and do not give antibiotics, steroids, etc. If something were to come up, it would all be handled with diet and natural supplements with the exception of an emergency situation where immediate medical action is required.

Flea control? No chemicals - we use a natural spray to help protect them from fleas and ticks when we are in areas that they are problematic. We haven't had flea or tick problems and trust me when I say there is no shortage of either around here. I'll be honest and say I think I've sprayed my dogs down with the natural spray once so far this year. 

We do not give heartworm meds. I do have my dogs tested twice a year and if they ever come up positive, we will then decide what treatment we will use.


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## ultimatek9

RawFedDogs said:


> I'm sorry your dogs have such bad health. Which raw diet are you feeding them?


*All of my dogs are extremely healthy.
I "make" my own raw.*


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## RawFedDogs

ultimatek9 said:


> All of my dogs are extremely healthy.


Then why do they use 7 different kinds "therapy"? Healthy dogs would go to the vet once a year for a hearworm check. Period. Nothing else. THATS what I call healthy.



> I "make" my own raw.


That doesn't tell me anything. ... Well, actually it tells me a lot.


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## ultimatek9

RawFedDogs said:


> Then why do they use 7 different kinds "therapy"? Healthy dogs would go to the vet once a year for a hearworm check. Period. Nothing else. THATS what I call healthy.
> 
> 
> 
> That doesn't tell me anything. ... Well, actually it tells me a lot.



*Between all my dogs, they been to a Vet ZERO times in the past six years.
My dogs go to the Homeopath once a year for their nosodes.
A few of my dogs (Jaeger, Hennessy, Gidget, Kainda, and Jimmy) get a chiropractic adjustment 2 or 3 times a year. It depends on how many competitions they have, since they compete in flyball, weightpull, agility, dock diving, and terrier races (kainda & jimmy).
They see their acupunturist if they get injuried.
All of the other methods I have used on rescues that came to me with injuries or trauma.
Just because I believe in and use multiple practices, doesn't mean that they are all used on all of my animals.

As far as raw, it depends on what I can get a hold of, and what size of dog.
chicken leg quarters, backs, necks, wings
turkey necks, wings, legs
duck wings
beef heart
goat ribs, femurs
lamb femurs, other meat
rabbit (cleaned frames)
emu
beef tripe
venison
bison
mackerel
wild boar
Probably others when I get a chance. I also mix in some chopped up veggies.*


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## rannmiller

DANG! I'm so jealous of you right now. All I can usually get ahold of is chicken quarters, whole chicken, chicken livers, lamb, lamb liver, cornish game hen, beef, pork, venison, rabbit, and some salmon every now and then.


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## RawFedDogs

ultimatek9 said:


> My dogs go to the Homeopath once a year for their nosodes. A few of my dogs (Jaeger, Hennessy, Gidget, Kainda, and Jimmy) get a chiropractic adjustment 2 or 3 times a year. <snip> They see their acupunturist if they get injuried. <snip> Just because I believe in and use multiple practices, doesn't mean that they are all used on all of my animals.


I find that, in general, people or dogs that go to the voodoo witch doctors (homeopaths, chiropractors, and acupuncturists) tend to go to them a lot and generally are not in good health.



> As far as raw, it depends on what I can get a hold of, and what size of dog.


I too am jealous of the diet your dogs get. You do a great job in that area.


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## ultimatek9

RawFedDogs said:


> I find that, in general, people or dogs that go to the voodoo witch doctors (homeopaths, chiropractors, and acupuncturists) tend to go to them a lot and generally are not in good health.
> 
> 
> 
> I too am jealous of the diet your dogs get. You do a great job in that area.


*I know some people that believe in a supplement for everything. If their dog isn't on 10 supplements a day, they believe they aren't getting everything they need.

I only treat problems that actually exist. The only "prevention" I really do with my dogs, is chiropractic. But I figure if I was as active as them, I would need adjusted more too. Plus they deserve it, since they are only competing because I asked them to.

As far as the raw goes, we are lucky there. My neighbors are into "exotic" meats. They curry up all sorts of stuff. They use my dogs as their garbage disposal, and save them all of the bits and pieces that are left over as well as the organ meats.
My husband and several friends are into hunting. So we get quite an assortment of wild caught animals too.
My dogs have even enjoyed gator before. A friend has had to kill a couple on her property, and brought the fur kids some of the leftovers.*


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## RawFedDogs

Now I'm jealous for my dogs. Sounds like yours get a good diet.


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## Oz'sMommy

oz is still a 'baby' (at a little over 8 months) so he's only had his full puppy shots and his rabies shot. because he was so small our vet split up the series as much as he could. the vet feels there are too many risks with giving a small breed dog a lepto vaccine so he won't be getting that one. and he said vaccinating oz for corona or lyme wasn't wise. he had a skin reaction to rabies so we're going to have to watch that one next time it rolls around. he will be having a titer test when he's one year, as well as a stool, urine sample to make sure he's 100% healthy and free of parasites or any kidney issues. if the vet says his test looks good for immunities then he won't get shots. if the test shows he needs a booster then we'll do it.

oz's vet was also okay with me waiting to get him fixed until he was finished developing (which i'm sure he is now). that's another story, i have issues getting him fixed but likely will if in the longrun it keeps him healthy. he has no agression, territory or behavior issues that would warrant me to get him fixed other than making sure he doesn't get a female pregnant if the 1 in a million chance i'm not by his side. i'm also worried about his personality changing, i'm sure i'm over-reacting but still, lol.

oz eats alternating meals of kibble (right now it's natural balance potato & duck) or canned (we switch between wellness turkey @ sweet potato, wellness 95% turkey or evanger's 100% duck or buffalo). he doesn't eat anything with corn, wheat, soy or rice. his treats are usually 100% dehydrated tilapia, sam yam's sweet potato fries, wellness pure treats, anabelle's duck & sweet potato biscuits, stuff like that. saturday mornings he gets a scrambled egg and a bit of boiled old fashioned oats with his breakfast. sunday dinners he'll get a boiled serving of chicken, steak, salmon or ground beef depending on what we're having. AND i just noticed that a market in our area now sells buffalo so he'll be trying that in a non-canned dog food form soon (as will we, lol)

i use advantage on him for fleas. as you know it doesn't get very cold in california. i'd like to stop giving it to him when flea season "stops" but i have to look more into when that is for my area. he gets interceptor once a month. we had quite a few mosquitos this summer especially around the park we go to since they have a tendency to overwater the lawn which leaves little pockets of standing water behind. he's taken antibiotics once when he had an ear infection, never again. after two days on those he got the worst yeast infection in BOTH ears. he now gets a little ACV and organic nonfat yogurt every now and again but he used to be on it all the time. it cleared it right up and i got some natural ear wash w/o alcohol in it as well.

i'm trying to learn more about massage. there's a homeopathic vet down the street from my office as well as a pet "spa" that does reflexology/massage for dogs i've seen around town as well. but i've been massaging oz since he was a baby. he just sits there with his eyes half closed and that "man this feels good" look on his face.


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## CorgiPaws

zentrainer said:


> is just a cold and untreated goes away in two weeks. There are the odd cases that do get sick and sometimes the colds turn into serious infections. Mostly the very young and very old. Just like people.



Working in doggy daycares and boarding facilities the last few years, I've seen many cases of simple kennel cough turn into terrible cases of pneumonia, and even two deaths (granted that's two deaths in three years....) 
I take my dogs to work with me and they're around other dogs every single day. The facility requires DHLPP, bordetella, and rabies, and I do keep up on the bordetella for the most part just because of their exposure. I just started working in a new facility that isn't very busy yet, and I'm not too concerned so Champ is a few months overdue. My 13 year old beagle hasn't seen a needle in years, but he also never really leaves home, and defnately isn't fit for daycare. Grissom is only 6 months old, so he's finished up puppy shots.


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