# Another Kidney Failure...What are we missing???



## Khan (Jan 17, 2010)

Just got back from the vet with Bonzi. Looks like he is going into kidney failure. They gave him SubCu fluids, and sent me home with an IV bag to give him Sat. & Sun. We will retest on Monday to see how he responds. He will be 13 in a couple weeks.

So here is my question: There seems to be an awful lot of this going around. Not only in older dogs; but there was just a thread about a 2yr JRT. So is there something we should be feeding/not feeding? Studies show that you need to reduce the amount of Phosphorus in the diet by feeding moderate to high fat, moderate amounts of high quality protein, and low phosphorus carbs to provide calories. So I'm just wondering when we are looking at the proteins we are able to feed, should we be looking at the ph values? Or do we only look at this when we run into "trouble"

I'm not looking to debate if the raw diet is good or not. I believe it is. I'm just opening a discussion because these cases kinda make you go Hmmmm.

I will say in Bonzi's case he has underlying issues that I believe to be a contributing factor. It's been just about a year since we removed for the 3rd time a mast cell tumor from his side. At the time he showed no signs that the cells had spread to his organs/lungs. Which is why we chose to operate. He was showing no other signs, and by all accounts he was very healthy. Chances are this is why he is going into kidney failure.


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## mheath0429 (Sep 8, 2012)

Kidney issues can be caused by any chemical going through the blood stream - do you use heartworm meds or topicals?


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## Khan (Jan 17, 2010)

mheath0429 said:


> Kidney issues can be caused by any chemical going through the blood stream - do you use heartworm meds or topicals?


Nope. Do not use either one.


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## mheath0429 (Sep 8, 2012)

Khan said:


> Nope. Do not use either one.



ANy chemicals around the house? I use all natural cleaners and such now, because my dad had a dog die of kidney failure they believe was tied to house hold cleaners


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## Little Brown Jug (Dec 7, 2010)

I don't know but I've noticed it quite a bit (along with liver failure) as well even here around my town. My friend for example. She lost her dwarf German Shepherd and then not even a month later one of her cats. Needless to say she was heartbroken. And of course the first thought was, could it be something in the house? Could it be the food? Her other dog and cat are fine and she's now gotten another dog and so far she's been doing well except she's a little under weight and hard to get/keep weight on.


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## Khan (Jan 17, 2010)

mheath0429 said:


> ANy chemicals around the house? I use all natural cleaners and such now, because my dad had a dog die of kidney failure they believe was tied to house hold cleaners


No chemicals either. I use BioKleen natural cleaning products. Nothing in the yard either. 
Shelby and Khan have not been sick or show any signs of problems. No diarrhea, throwing up, etc. As far as I can tell they are completely healthy.


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## Rvent (Apr 15, 2012)

I have been asking myself these same questions, I also wonder what was missed. Max was 5 and had no signs of kidney failure at all (or typical signs) he had some things come up that were not kidney failure related. He had test, xrays the whole 9 yards months before he died and they all came out OK, one minute he was fine and the next he was in acute kidney failure and gone. I hope everything works out OK for Bonzi


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## Khan (Jan 17, 2010)

After re-reading the info on kidney failure, I woke up asking myself this question:
If it is so important to keep the Ph levels lowered, and using ground eggshells or plain calcium is used as a binder to balance this ratio, would it be beneficial to add a calcium supplement before any kidney problems exist? Could this take some of the burden off the kidneys trying to process the high protein meals we feed??


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## kathylcsw (Jul 31, 2011)

I lost 2 dogs to kidney failure within 3 weeks of each other last year. Heidi was just shy of 14 years old but Sam was only 3 years old. I too questioned what I had done to cause it. My other dog was fine though with no kidney issues at all. My quest led me to researching diet and that is why Lola and Buster are on a raw diet. I can't know that kibble contributed to it but I know that I feel better feeding raw.


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## Khan (Jan 17, 2010)

Rvent said:


> I have been asking myself these same questions, I also wonder what was missed. Max was 5 and had no signs of kidney failure at all (or typical signs) he had some things come up that were not kidney failure related. He had test, xrays the whole 9 yards months before he died and they all came out OK, one minute he was fine and the next he was in acute kidney failure and gone. I hope everything works out OK for Bonzi


I'm sorry about Max. It's just so dang frustrating to not have a clear and concise reason.


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## whiteleo (Sep 7, 2008)

Do you feed clean organs? Meaning from grass fed H/A free meat? Seems that if you fed organs from another source the kidneys have to filter all the junk they are fed. Just a thought


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## SaharaNight Boxers (Jun 28, 2011)

I think some of it is genetic. At least early age failure. As said you had a friend who lost her dwarf GSD to it. If he was purposely bred as a dwarf I'm guessing he came from a BYB, therefore probably no health testing. I know Juvenile Renal Disease is a problem coming out in European Boxers which is early age renal/kidney failure. I honestly believe its more of a generic thing as most probably don't get pups from health tested parents.


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## MollyWoppy (Mar 19, 2010)

A young dog, less than a year old died at out vets clinic. The vet (mine) blamed the food (Orijen) that the dog ate saying it's too high in protein. I know this because I persuaded my neighbour to change her 2 young miniature poodles from Iams over to Orijen and she came storming in to tell me what our vet said.
Like I told her though, a dog that young has to have been predisposed to kidney problems from birth, there are countless thousands of dogs eating this type of food and they aren't dying at young ages.
I'm really sorry to hear about your pup, it's so frustrating knowing that something is wrong or went wrong and not being able to figure out why.


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## Khan (Jan 17, 2010)

MollyWoppy said:


> A young dog, less than a year old died at out vets clinic. The vet (mine) blamed the food (Orijen) that the dog ate saying it's too high in protein. I know this because I persuaded my neighbour to change her 2 young miniature poodles from Iams over to Orijen and she came storming in to tell me what our vet said.
> Like I told her though, a dog that young has to have been predisposed to kidney problems from birth, there are countless thousands of dogs eating this type of food and they aren't dying at young ages.
> I'm really sorry to hear about your pup, it's so frustrating knowing that something is wrong or went wrong and not being able to figure out why.


I agree. Most likely a dog that young does have predisposed issues. It's unfortunate that the vet blamed it on too high a protein. Much of the research I have done, as well as my vet (who has recently retired) was of the opinion that it was the "Types" of protein. Controlling the Ph intakes by choosing certain "Types" of protein, certain "Types" of fat, and Carbs (the carbs are to help add calories w/o adding Ph) As I stated in an earlier post from this morning. One of the ways to control Ph is by adding a "Binder" the most common binder is Calcium. Should we raw feeders be adding a calcium supplement to help prevent the kidneys from failure..?


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## DaneMama (Jun 27, 2008)

Khan....I'm so sorry to read the diagnosis. Did they tell you how bad the kidney values are?

This might indicate if it was a chronic problem or acute. Dogs can go quite a long time with "kidney disease" before showing any symptoms as the body can function with ~75% loss of kidney tissue. 

Figuring out if it was acute or chronic might give you a better idea if something like diet would be the cause. Although, there's no for sure way to find out one way or another. Kidney disease and failure is such a multifactorial disease that it's nearly impossible to pinpoint cause. 

Was it the vaccines given earlier in life? Anesthetic drugs? RX drugs? Genetics? Toxins in the environment? 

All of the above reasons could be contributing factors.


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## Rvent (Apr 15, 2012)

Khan said:


> I'm sorry about Max. It's just so dang frustrating to not have a clear and concise reason.


Thank you, I have played every scenario in my head as to what could have happened, I questioned my raw feeding him to every vet missing something, I will never know, maybe thats what haunts me.


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## Khan (Jan 17, 2010)

DaneMama said:


> Khan....I'm so sorry to read the diagnosis. Did they tell you how bad the kidney values are?
> 
> This might indicate if it was a chronic problem or acute. Dogs can go quite a long time with "kidney disease" before showing any symptoms as the body can function with ~75% loss of kidney tissue.
> 
> ...


Thanks Nat. They gave me the numbers last night and they were very high. As far as function % no specific number. He's had 500mgl subcu fluids this morning, and he's eaten both last night and today without throwing up. I've also noticed his stools are still very loose/soft BUT they are not as dark/bloody. I am giving him an anti-nausea as well as a pill to help with the irritation to his stomach. At this point all I can do is hope this helps, and see where his levels are on Monday. If this goes well, we may be looking at administering fluids daily, which would be fine by me. I just don't want him to be in pain or be suffering.


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## DaneMama (Jun 27, 2008)

Please keep us posted and he will be in my thoughts of healing light and energy!!!


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## Khan (Jan 17, 2010)

Thanks for everyone's healing thoughts! 
There has been a significant change for the BETTER!! :amen: He's up and moving around! He's eaten again! (read it's better to give smaller meals more frequently so that's what I've been doing) In the kitchen at his "normal spot" I've been bringing it to him where he's laying! He is looking more like the old Bonzerelli!! We have another round of Subcu fluids a little later on. I'm hopeful that we are moving his levels down, and helping flush the toxins out. Only time will tell; but I'm happy to report he is not looking or acting as dire as he seemed yesterday!! 

My husband has been gone since the 2nd of October, and is not due back until next weekend. I'm sure glad I have this forum to turn to for advise and support. 
Thanks everyone!!

Gina


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## Khan (Jan 17, 2010)

Continued progress!! 2nd half of the Subcu fluids have been given, he's eaten 3 small meals already today, and he's a little more active. By active I mean, he's got up a few times and walked from one spot to another while we've been watching tv, and he's lifting his head at times as I'm going by with the laundry!! All things that over the past 2 days have been absent from him!!


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## DaneMama (Jun 27, 2008)

I'm so glad to hear that he's making progress!!! Fantastic news....my continued thoughts and energy headed his way!


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## Chocx2 (Nov 16, 2009)

I hope he continues to improve, sounds like he is doing better. Sending a prayer and good thoughts your way.:grouphug:


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## Khan (Jan 17, 2010)

Update on Bonzi! Levels are about half of what they were on Friday! The fluids have done their job!! WooHoo!! 
The doctor believes that this is a chronic condition, and that he has about 30% kidney function. The doctor said he should receive a min. of fluids once a week. I was like, really, that's all?? He said, well ideally he should have them once a day. My answer was OK! The doctor was shocked. (on a side note, that's just sad) So I left there armed with 3 bags of fluids, a couple lines, and some needles. I am going to administer approx. 300 ml daily. If I do this every day, I don't need to give him as much as I did over the weekend. I can get roughly 3 days out of a bag. So for 20 bucks a week I can manage the disease! Done!!!
My husband is so funny, he's all worried that poking him every day is going to make him sore! I told him maybe at some point we can cut it to every other day. That way he won't be so sore!! LOL!


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## tansox (Jun 22, 2011)

I think I'm the owner of the 2 year old JRT mentioned in the first post, if not, then my situation is the same.

It's been a month now since my terrier was diagnosed with kidney failure. Since he came out of the vets (having been on a drip for 24 hrs) he has been absolutely fine, thank God! We have collected a urine sample from him today (not easy when he's only tiny to start with and he sees us approaching him with a cup to collect a sample I can assure you of that!) however, mission accomplished and we have a good sample to take off to our vets this afternoon, but this month has been a good one, he eats most days, and with vigour, although I am going to wean him back onto raw within the next week or two, but I have to say he loves the Hills K/d kibble - shame on him!!!!!

Anyway, I hope Bonzi continues to make progress and you both continue to go onwards and upwards! Fingers crossed the blips are minor. 
Christine.


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## Khan (Jan 17, 2010)

tansox said:


> I think I'm the owner of the 2 year old JRT mentioned in the first post, if not, then my situation is the same.
> 
> It's been a month now since my terrier was diagnosed with kidney failure. Since he came out of the vets (having been on a drip for 24 hrs) he has been absolutely fine, thank God! We have collected a urine sample from him today (not easy when he's only tiny to start with and he sees us approaching him with a cup to collect a sample I can assure you of that!) however, mission accomplished and we have a good sample to take off to our vets this afternoon, but this month has been a good one, he eats most days, and with vigour, although I am going to wean him back onto raw within the next week or two, but I have to say he loves the Hills K/d kibble - shame on him!!!!!
> 
> ...


I'm so glad to hear your boy is doing so well. So are you administering fluids to him? Our doctor spoke about a urine sample; but he did not feel it was necessary. He basically said, all that would do was give us a "better" indication of the amount of uremia (I think) and lead us to a more accurate reading of how much kidney function he truly has. 
Bonzi is eating the Royal Canine renal food, and now that he's feeling better, not too happy about it!! LOL!! 

Let's hope we BOTH continue to see progress!! We are sending healing thoughts to you across the pond!

Gina


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## DaneMama (Jun 27, 2008)

This is great news! Fluid therapy at home can work wonders for cases like this. As far as dogs getting sore from continually being poked....it's more that they'll get more and more sqirmy and thus harder to hold. I would pair his meal time with his fluid time so he can have some distraction. 

Please keep us updated!


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## tansox (Jun 22, 2011)

Khan said:


> I'm so glad to hear your boy is doing so well. So are you administering fluids to him? Our doctor spoke about a urine sample; but he did not feel it was necessary. He basically said, all that would do was give us a "better" indication of the amount of uremia (I think) and lead us to a more accurate reading of how much kidney function he truly has.
> Bonzi is eating the Royal Canine renal food, and now that he's feeling better, not too happy about it!! LOL!!
> 
> Let's hope we BOTH continue to see progress!! We are sending healing thoughts to you across the pond!
> ...


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## Khan (Jan 17, 2010)

Update on Bonzi. We have been administering fluids daily since this all started. We had a blood test after 2 weeks, and his BUN level was @ 44, so we continued to admin. fluids daily and today was another 2 week test. Today the BUN is still 44 BUUUT his CRE levels have continued to drop (long term kidney function). The first week his CRE were at 4.4, after 2 weeks they were at 2.2, today they continue to show signs of dropping they are at 2.0. WooHoo!! So we are going to start admin. fluids every other day. Which will be good, cuz the last couple days, he's not been too happy to get stuck! Treats or no treats, he's tired of the needle! and who could blame him. He's also gained almost a pound which is critical. All in all, he's doing pretty darn good!


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## Herzo (Feb 5, 2011)

That is good to hear so glad he is doing better. You have worked so hard to get him well, you are a good dog mommy.


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## honkytonky (Dec 30, 2008)

sorry to hear your lovely dog has had renal failure. My dog has just gotten the same news and he is only 9. I have been very picky about his diet too. He has a bad habit of eating garbage on the street and he does get heartworm and flea meds every yr and shots of course but now he cannot have them anymore...now they are too toxic


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