# Talk of Banning Pitbulls in suburban Australia



## hmbutler (Aug 4, 2011)

Well, it has happened again, as it unfortunately seems to so often here in Australia - another young child was attacked by a pitbull. Very sadly, this child didn't survive. Often in the news I hear or read about children being attacked by pitbulls around Australia, it's an all too common occurence, most of the time the child doesnt die though (perhaps got a bite from the dog on the face or something, as opposed to being mauled). Almost every time, the dog involved will be put down (regardless of the circumstances - for example, in one instance, the dog bit an unknown child who was trying to play with its food bowl - I think this is a bit of a parenting fault as well!). It's very sad news. Here's a link if you are interested: Pit bull kills Melbourne four-year-old

So of course, this will spark the debate of banning pitbulls in suburban areas in Australia (I believe they would still allow ownership in rural/regional areas and farms etc). Is it really a pitbull problem? Or is it an ownership problem? Are all untrained pitbulls prone to attacks? Will a trained pitbull never attack? I don't really know much about pitbulls to be honest, and while they do appear to be a more aggressive breed than others (purely because of how many stories there are of people getting attacked by them), I think this must surely be a training/upbringing issue? When I was growing up, my brother was chased by 3 pitbulls when riding his bike - they destroyed his skateboard and tore the seat off his bike, before a neighbour came out yelling and they ran back home (these same dogs were later put down after attacking and killing cows in a paddock near the primary school). We had a pitbull stay with us for a week at our old house (housemates brother went on holidays) and he was a very calm, friendly dog. But I admit I was still a little nervous around him, as his owner was not there. 

I can only think of two occurences when I read/heard about a dog attack where the dog involved was not a pitbull or pitbull mix (one was a husky, the other a golden retriever, which was very surprising).

I guess its quite like human sterotyping - it's likely true for some, but definitely not true for all. What do you guys think?


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## RachelsaurusRexU (Sep 4, 2010)

I think one of the main problems is the media. Bites/attacks by other breeds are seldom reported, and biting dogs are very often misreported as "pit bulls". Obviously another major problem is irresponsible ownership. It seems that more people have these wonderful dogs for the wrong reasons than the right ones. Whether it's for illegal purposes, indiscriminately breeding for profit, or just having one for a tough guy image/penis extension, most likely, dogs in those situations are not going to be properly trained, socialized or responsibly handled.

The truth about pit bulls is that they're incredibly loyal, resilient, goofy, happy dogs who enjoy human companionship and leadership more than anything else in the world! I wish the media would stop vilifying these dogs. The damage they're doing is irreversible. Of course they never report on the pitties who are involved in therapy, search and rescue, police work, etc. Sickening.


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

my feelings are pretty well known. 

leave the dogs alone.

kill the owners.

but, since that is only my fantasy, it's very sad that the dog is punished because of owners who have no clue how to take care of powerful breeds...

and other people who don't have a clue as to how any dog, no matter what breed, should be approached.

it's a shame. and there are neighbourhoods here in the states that have covenants that have breed restrictions.


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## RachelsaurusRexU (Sep 4, 2010)

LOL, Re!!! 

People sure do suck.


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## cprcheetah (Jul 14, 2010)

RachelsaurusRexU said:


> I think one of the main problems is the media. Bites/attacks by other breeds are seldom reported, and biting dogs are very often misreported as "pit bulls". Obviously another major problem is irresponsible ownership. It seems that more people have these wonderful dogs for the wrong reasons than the right ones. Whether it's for illegal purposes, indiscriminately breeding for profit, or just having one for a tough guy image/penis extension, most likely, dogs in those situations are not going to be properly trained, socialized or responsibly handled.
> 
> The truth about pit bulls is that they're incredibly loyal, resilient, goofy, happy dogs who enjoy human companionship and leadership more than anything else in the world! I wish the media would stop vilifying these dogs. The damage they're doing is irreversible. Of course they never report on the pitties who are involved in therapy, search and rescue, police work, etc. Sickening.


So so true, I know my dad (also a Veterinarian) nearly got neutered himself by a Labrador Mix who bit him in the stomach and groin area, and his worst bite in his career was by a little chihuahua who launched himself off the table and clamped on to my dad's face. Split his lip right in 2. I think any dog can be a 'bad' dog, but it has to do with how they are raised. I have 2 'known' nippers breeds, neither one would ever 'dare' bite anyone who didn't deserve it LOL. They are both really good with kids, even though Ziva hasn't really been around them, she is great with my little 4 year old nephew. It is so tragic what happened to that family.


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## hmbutler (Aug 4, 2011)

magicre said:


> my feelings are pretty well known.
> 
> leave the dogs alone.
> 
> ...


yes, in some instances, I believe owners have also been punished in some way (or at least charged with some offence) for not taking proper care of their dog and are held responsible for the attacks. But it's sad when a dog is put down for not having known any better.

When we were considering getting a dog, before we got duke, a family friend got a BEAUTIFUL rotti pup, and I fell in love with her and wanted one of my own. They've always owned rotti's, and said "do not get one unless you are going to take it to proper obedience classes and put a lot of time and effort in to training it, because they can be vicious when not properly trained" - this coming from someone who absolutely adores the breed. Perhaps that would be a better solution? Rather than ban pitbull ownership, maybe people should have to sign off on some declaration saying they will ensure the dog gets proper obedience training etc (and actually graduates from a class, not just attend one or two) and that they will be held responsible if the dog ever attacks? This could apply to all powerful breeds, not just pits. At least then that might deter many idiots who impulse buy these kinds of dogs thinking "yeah a big dog would be cool!" and never take proper care of it (wouldn't get rid of the problem altogether, but at least owners would always be held responsible)

And definitely agree about not knowing how to approach another persons dog - thats what I was referring to about the child who was playing with the food bowl - the child was very young, not expected to know better, but the parents should have! I love all dogs, when I see them tied up outside supermarkets etc while the owner is inside, I often say hello (must look like a crazy person) and say things like "aww well aren't u a cute dog!" but no matter how the dog responds, I'd never get close enough for it to reach me


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## RCTRIPLEFRESH5 (Feb 11, 2010)

hmbutler said:


> Well, it has happened again, as it unfortunately seems to so often here in Australia - another young child was attacked by a pitbull. Very sadly, this child didn't survive. Often in the news I hear or read about children being attacked by pitbulls around Australia, it's an all too common occurence, most of the time the child doesnt die though (perhaps got a bite from the dog on the face or something, as opposed to being mauled). Almost every time, the dog involved will be put down (regardless of the circumstances - for example, in one instance, the dog bit an unknown child who was trying to play with its food bowl - I think this is a bit of a parenting fault as well!). It's very sad news. Here's a link if you are interested: Pit bull kills Melbourne four-year-old
> 
> So of course, this will spark the debate of banning pitbulls in suburban areas in Australia (I believe they would still allow ownership in rural/regional areas and farms etc). Is it really a pitbull problem? Or is it an ownership problem? Are all untrained pitbulls prone to attacks? Will a trained pitbull never attack? I don't really know much about pitbulls to be honest, and while they do appear to be a more aggressive breed than others (purely because of how many stories there are of people getting attacked by them), I think this must surely be a training/upbringing issue? When I was growing up, my brother was chased by 3 pitbulls when riding his bike - they destroyed his skateboard and tore the seat off his bike, before a neighbour came out yelling and they ran back home (these same dogs were later put down after attacking and killing cows in a paddock near the primary school). We had a pitbull stay with us for a week at our old house (housemates brother went on holidays) and he was a very calm, friendly dog. But I admit I was still a little nervous around him, as his owner was not there.
> 
> ...


i think goldens are one of the highest ranked dogs for biting actually.


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## doggoblin (Jun 6, 2011)

When talking about Breed Specific Legislation I found Kenzo the Hovawart: Danish breed ban rests on historically thin basis and Kenzo the Hovawart: How BSL can bring a whole country into madness to always be useful for reference. 

I think one of the key points is that


> Holland, Scotland and Italy have had a similar BSL against the biggest and strongest dogs. Experience from the three countries shows that neither did it limit the number of bites, gave fewer serious accidents, or for that matter, made people more comfortable because of the ban.
> 
> The three countries have even chosen to cancel or adjust the law because it had no effect.


Let's forget the fact that it's very difficult to determine what breed a certain dog is?

You do need to punish the owner not the breed, indeed banning a breed only make them more popular in certain circles.


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## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

Every time I read one of these stories, I think of a few years ago when a dog pack got into our zoo and killed some animals - the paper said it was pit bulls and showed a photo of a very obviously shepherd dog. Maybe some of the other dogs were pit bulls, but the paper didn't mention any other breeds.

I realized then that they want to say it's pit bulls, no matter what the breed. So I don't believe any article saying it's a pit bull unless I see a photo.

I don't think pit bulls should be banned, but I wouldn't mind alot stronger laws on the people who choose to own them. For instance, I was driving home from work one day and there was a fellow walking a pit bull with one of those GIANT chains around his neck, and hanging from it was a brick. Now what do you suppose he was doing that for? He should have been arrested, but there he was in broad daylight.


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## Caty M (Aug 13, 2010)

A couple years ago a 'pit bull' killed a child here- except that it was actually the family's lab/golden mix.


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## kevin bradley (Aug 9, 2009)

jesus, why don't we ban cars?

They kill people by the thousands every year.


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## whiteleo (Sep 7, 2008)

You talk to anyone who works in a shelter and they'll tell you the most common dog bites come from "little dogs" little ba***rd bite me in the leg and I still have a scar. However they don't get reported because they are little and well, they won't hurt anyone and the next common bite goes to labs and retrievers, but they aren't a scary breed so they also don't get sensationalized like the pitbull, which by the way only got the rap because of bad owners anyway.


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## jiml (Jun 29, 2010)

kevin bradley said:


> jesus, why don't we ban cars?
> 
> They kill people by the thousands every year.


Because pit bulls are evil. they need to be exterminated. Attempt's to exterminate them have failed because they are bulletproof, fireproof, breath underwater & immune to lethal injection. those who support pit bulls are trying to overthrow the gvt to start a pitbullocracy.


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

ever see a yorkie on the warpath?

i've seen people come into emergency rooms after a session with a pissed off yorkie and end up in Intensive Care.

people just don't get it. and the people who don't own dogs don't get it either.

just to let y'all know, my pug is now a pit mix.


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## Caty M (Aug 13, 2010)

Shush. Don't joke about that. I've been asked if Tess (AN ITALIAN GREYHOUND!!) was a pit puppy. Cause she is fawn and has rose ears. Durr.


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

Caty M said:


> Shush. Don't joke about that. I've been asked if Tess (AN ITALIAN GREYHOUND!!) was a pit puppy. Cause she is fawn and has rose ears. Durr.


that's all i can do these days, caty.....because we are amongst people who are insane.


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## kevin bradley (Aug 9, 2009)

Human beings are so dumb and irrational... 

We don't prioritize our concerns. A pitbull attacking a human is an anomaly. Admittedly, a tragedy... but its such a freaking rare occurrence on the probability scale that it baffles me why we spend so much time on it EVERY time it happens. 

The things we LOVE.....
Shark Attacks
Dog Attacks
Roller Coaster accidents
Gun accidents


For pete's sake.... if we PRIORITIZED our concerns, we would be most concerned with...

Smoking
Crappy diets
Drowning(not a week goes by in Western Michigan where some fool doesn't try to swim on a day with no-swim rip current warnings)
Drinking
Domestic Violence


Instead, I will continue to have to read about the 1x per year Pit Bull attack and how idiot humans want to ban Pit Bulls. They will run to city hall, smoking a cigarrette on the way, while stopping by McDonalds on the way home. 

ahhhh, the irony.


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## minnieme (Jul 6, 2011)

So sad. Just makes me realize more and more that people are sheep -- they will blindly follow media sources and buy into all the hype. It was like this with German Shepherds in the 80s, and in the early 1900s it was the Bloodhound. Gotta find SOMETHING to demonize. Wonder what the next breed will be after the pit bull hysteria dies down (in a few decades, I'm sure -- ignorant fools). Caty - watch out - probably Italian Greyhounds and spoos. ;-)


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## Maxy24 (Mar 5, 2011)

If someone gets bit by anything other than a pit bull (or other frequently banned breed) it doesn't make the paper or news. A pit bull could nip someone with good reason (I remember one bite in the paper that occurred when someone was beating the dog, and another which occurred when a child tried to play with a new litter of puppies) and make the paper.

When I was a kid my brother's friend was left in the car with his family's Golden Retriever while the mom had to run back in the house and get something. The Golden bit the boy in the face and he required lots of stitches. Dog bites happen every day, you don't hear about them.

Then of course there is the mislabeling. If I hear one more "100 pound pit bull mauls child" I'll scream. A 100 pound pit bull? Really?


I don't think an obedience class will help. For one pit bulls are not more likely to bite in the first place (do keep in mind that there are probably more pit bulls than any other breed except MAYBE Labs). Also, dogs bites aren't a problem of not knowing to sit and come when called. It's a lack of socialization, abuse that causes the dog to be fearful, and/or bad breeding.


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## kevin bradley (Aug 9, 2009)

I have been around a number of Pits in my life. I've never owned one but I can honestly say this...

The AMOUNT of sheer rough play and just hard nosed roughing around they will take is off the CHARTS in terms of what they will tolerate. I'm thinking of a current close friends Pit I was just with.... he will go at it with you for HOURS--just real tough play. He WILL play bite with you which if I'm not mistaken is a pretty natural behavior. He's a prettty active and excitable Dog. If I had to pick a Dog that would allow a child to do about ANYTHING to him, this would be the one. Now, I'd be concerned about his play biting, admittedly. However, pushing him to the point where he would just "snap" and bite them in anger?-- doubtful that would ever happen. 

Pits and Bully breeds are some of the most amazing, loving, courageous(a perfect adjective for them) Dogs on this planet. I will admit...they need to be in the right hands because I DO believe there IS some necessary caution needed from a Dog agressive perspective(but all breeds should be closely monitored around other Dogs).

What a shame it will be if human beings continue to denigrate and destroy these wonderful animals. 

Makes me sick, quite frankly.


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## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

It makes you wonder - if everyone hates pit bulls so much, why are there so many of them?


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## kevin bradley (Aug 9, 2009)

good point. For pete's sake, wasn't "Petey" on the Little Rascals a Pit? 

I also believe one of our past Presidents had a Pit in the Whitehouse.

(note to all-- I am guilty of labelling many bully breeds as "Pits." I know this bothers some owners but I don't do this in any type of negative way. I realize there are Bulldogs, Staffords, Pits, etc... I'm not as astute on the intricacies of breeds mainly because I love them all). 

Not sure why we have so many except that they seem to be more numerous in urban settings... it might simply be shear math driven--more people in concentrated urban settings=more Dogs and a high probability they will be Pits. 

I do have some thoughts on legalizing the fixing of Pits. I know this will piss some off(the responsible breeders) but frankly, at this point, I think we need to make it a law that you must have your Pit spayed or neutered. The issue has reached epidemic levels of sadness and abuse. Shelters are putting Pits down the minute they hit the door in some locations. I'm sorry if some feel it violates their "rights." But we need to ask ourselves about the "rights" of our 4 legged companions.


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## Herzo (Feb 5, 2011)

I too have to blame the owners and breeders. You would think they would want to keep the breed around and not get it band, yet they will sell to people that have never even had a dog let alone a Pit. Lets face it, like has been said before the people that want to be big shots and druggies are the ones allot of times that are attracted to them. You would then think if you were selling Pitbulls you would be very leery about who bought your dogs.

Kevin I have to agree with you that I'm not usually for things that take more of our rights away but they are going to have to make the breeders more responsible for making sure they get in better hands. I don't think they should all have to be fixed if you are going to breed them then you should have to have a lic other than that then fix away.

I know that when they brought Richter into the shelter the ACO said he was viscous and the City wanted to put him down. I'm looking at this dog wagging his tail and blinking his eyes at me and he says you can't let him out of the kennel. I'm thinking well that will make him aggressive real fast, as they don't do good in that situation. I've seen it happen more than once, they come in kind to other dogs then after they are in there for a long time they get aggressive to other dogs and start fighting and causing damage. Needless to say I talked the ACO into letting me let him out in the yard to get some exercise and soon we had him with another dog till the court case was over. They pretty much forced the kid to surrender him but he obviously couldn't handle him or give him what he needed so it was a good thing.

I have to say I was leery at first as I have not been around them all that much and all the hype about never leave them alone with other dogs and such. Well I don't know about this snapped thing maybe but my Basset is the one always attacking him, maybe if I wouldn't have been there the first few times he would have done something I don't know, but he knows shes harmless and I also think shes smart enough not to do it when they are alone. I do need to take him to some classes but I can tell you he has made great progress just with getting allot of exercise. I have never had him be dog aggressive ever, he is mostly the other way very submissive to other older or bigger dogs. Also he doesn't hurt the little ones, he is just a little to over eager to meet them.

I really don't know why they go right into that they need to be banned before trying something else first. I would have no problem getting a lic or prove that my dog is neutered, and I would think any responsible breeder wouldn't ether. If they had a problem getting a lic to breed Pitbulls then I would say they didn't want to better the bred and don't need to be a breeder. I also don't get the thing " I have a big tough Pitbull state of mind" I kind of like having " a big tough pussy Pitbull" . Ok I'm weird.


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

ya know?

i'll be on the wrong side on this one....but i believe it's time to sterilise girls who use abortion as birth control...and maybe just to save the dogs, it's time to sterilise them also....

ick, i can't believe i said that.

but if i hear about one more innocent dog who has to die because mommy and daddy didn't teach their child to reach through the fence.....

i swear, we never hear the full story....'four year old dies in pit maul attack'....and still, i have to ask where were the parents...and what was this child doing....and yet the dog has to die.

i swear.....i really hate people.


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## ShanniBella (Jul 1, 2011)

Google LAB attacks on humans and see how many of those are biting people. I believe recently in Europe they were on the number one biter list for that particular country. Unfortunately the MEDIA hypes up pit bull attacks and it makes me sick! German Shepards have been the number one biters in the U.S. for years but you never see them on the news. The minute a pit bull bites someone its all out there and the media frenzy begins. Discrimination against my breed is like discrimination against people IMO. OP, you say they are a more aggressive breed?? Why do you say that other than what you see on TV. Have you ever met a pit bull? Around here in Boston the attacks seem to happen in the low income parts of town and also across the country for that matter. I call them the "ghetto" dog because they are owned by people who use them for other purposes and abuse them to become mean. The dogs that bite in my area are not socialized, trained, or treated humanely and when they get out they bite out of fear. Any dog would if it wasn't trained or treated properly. Stop sterotyping my breed of choice because as a professional dog groomer and vet tech I have seen more and more aggressive labs and goldens and don't even get me started on all the doodle mixes that I meet who are aggressive and will bite unprovoked. Any dog can bite and injure a person I am more afraid of the ankle biters snarling and growling at me then I am a big goofy rottweiler or pit bull. People should never leave a dog unattended with a small child no matter what the breed. They are animals and if you ask me that is called bad parenting and an accident waiting to happen. Kids love to tease dogs.....Pit bulls were bred to be DA or dog aggressive to fight but if any of them turned to bite a human while in the [] they were culled. These dogs were bred to love people and obey there masters. They weren't bred to be man or child eaters. The APBT was one of the most responsibly bred dog back in the days and some how dogmen let them get into the hands of the general public....to many wrong hands. Banning breeds doesn't work and BSL is BS! "Educate don't discriminate"!


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

the only thing i don't care for in pitties or rotties is they simply want to play too much.

they don't have an off button for play....and it just takes too many words, like knock it off....three whole words to stop them....or that never ending skritch behind their ears or their bellies to make them calm down...

just too much work....


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## ShanniBella (Jul 1, 2011)

LOL!! I agree....my girl almost knocks me over every night when I come home from work. I get mauled with big wet kisses!! As soon as I say "cookie" I can snap her right out of her craziness LOL!


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## ShanniBella (Jul 1, 2011)

*Educate don't discriminate!!*

Please take a few minutes of your time to watch this video called the "pit bull problem" Gives you a look into all aspects of the breed from being mistreated to loved. It can be a little graphic at times
The ORIGINAL "Pit Bull Problem" Video - YouTube


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

well, i just got licked by a pittie.....i will admit those jaws were so scary, although hard to see with that tongue bathing my face....and his paw holding me down whilst he gave me a bath.

he was nibbling my chin, no doubt getting ready to make me dinner....they were like little teeth kisses


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## whiteleo (Sep 7, 2008)

kevin bradley said:


> good point. For pete's sake, wasn't "Petey" on the Little Rascals a Pit?
> 
> I also believe one of our past Presidents had a Pit in the Whitehouse.
> 
> ...


Nope, it was Teddy Roosevelt and he owned a Bull Terrier named "Pete"


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## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

Petey from Lil Rascals was a real pit bull, and no one even gave his breed a second thought. Times sure change

Pet Pit Bull - Petey of Our Gang / Little Rascals

I didn't realize the first Petey was poisoned. It says they think someone had a grudge against his trainer.


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## kevin bradley (Aug 9, 2009)

Not that it matters a TON, but it is kind of nice to know some of the famouse other Pit bull owners...

White, I think we did have a Pit in the Whitehouse. My list says that Woodrow Wilson had a Pit. I found this on a Pit forum and obviously can't speak 100% to its accuracy but I know some of these are accurate so I believe most are probably true....

Helen Keller (Pit Bull Named - Stubby) 
Anthony Robbins
Molly Price (Actress)
General George Patton
Jan Michael Vincent
Fred Astaire
Stephany Kramer
President Woodrow Wilson
Pink (the singer)
Ashley Olsen
Jan Michael Vincent
Alicia Silverstone
Humphrey Bogart
Ananda Lewis
Linda Blair
John Steinbeck
Fatty Arbuckle
Malcolm - Jamal Warner
Mary Tyler Moore
Steve & Terri Irwin (Pit Bull Named - Sui)
Mo Vaughn (NY Mets)
James Ellroy (Author)
Amy Jo Johnson (Actress)
Jack Johnson (Hawaiian singer)
Sinbad
Barbra Eden
Rosie Perez
Kelli Williams (Actress from The Practice)
AJ Mclean
Rachel Ray (from Food Network) (Pit Bull Named - Isaboo)
Orlando Bloom
James Caan
Shaquille “Shaq” O’Neal
Judd Nelson
Barbara Eden,
Veronica Mars
Walter Scott (Author)
Ken Howard (Father in Crossing Jordon - his Pit Shadow saved his life)
Usher (Singer)
Michael J. Fox
Thomas Edison
Mel Brooks & Anne Brancroft
Julian schnabel
Jessica Alba
John Stuart
Jesse James and (Pit Bull Named - Cisco)
Stephan Jenkins (Singer)
Madonna
Jack Dempsey
Brad Pitt
Theodore Roosevelt
Bernadette Peters
Stephan Jenkins
Tamika Dixon (Athlete)
Singer Rick Springfield
Actor Vin Diesel
Barbra Ede
Cassandra Creech
Sir Walter Scott (Poet)
Shannon Elizabeth
Earl Holliman
David Spade
Robert Ferguson (Green Bay Packer)
John Stewart (from the Daily Show)
Bill Berloni (Broadway show dog trainer who has said that the Pit is the breed of choice for training),
Roy Jones Jr.
Serena Williams
Justin Miller
Cozy Coleman
Veron Haynes
Hugh Douglas
Kamal
Jermaine Dupri
Richard "Rip" Hamilton
50 Cent
Young Buck
Lloyd Banks
Jordan Babineaux
Jonathan Babineaux
Maurice White
Andrew Vachss
Ira Glass
Rosie Perez
Kelli Williams
Judd Nelson
Thomas Edison
Mel Brooks and Anne Bancroft
Julian Schnabel
Stephan Jenkins
Jon Stewart
Tamika Dixon

Well known sports figures who own Pit Bulls include:

Tennis Star Serena Williams (Pit bulls Name - Bambi)
Professional Basketball Players Desmond Mason (Pit Bulls Named - Zane & Capone)
Rashard Lewis (Pit Bull Named - Cookie, Angel & Ginger)
Amare Stoudemire (Pit Bull Names - JT, Ace & Deuce)
Alton Ford (Pit Bull Names - Mischif, Rosy, Spicey, Diable +3 pups with names unknown)
Tamika Dixon and Mo Vaughn


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## whiteleo (Sep 7, 2008)

Could be, my list is of purebreds and their famous owners!


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## kevin bradley (Aug 9, 2009)

I find the list pretty telling...

Most of these folks could have whatever breed they wanted and they pick Pits. 

Beautiful. I love it.


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## lauren43 (Feb 6, 2011)

kevin bradley said:


> Human beings are so dumb and irrational...
> 
> We don't prioritize our concerns. A pitbull attacking a human is an anomaly. Admittedly, a tragedy... but its such a freaking rare occurrence on the probability scale that it baffles me why we spend so much time on it EVERY time it happens.
> 
> ...





kevin bradley said:


> I have been around a number of Pits in my life. I've never owned one but I can honestly say this...
> 
> The AMOUNT of sheer rough play and just hard nosed roughing around they will take is off the CHARTS in terms of what they will tolerate. I'm thinking of a current close friends Pit I was just with.... he will go at it with you for HOURS--just real tough play. He WILL play bite with you which if I'm not mistaken is a pretty natural behavior. He's a prettty active and excitable Dog. If I had to pick a Dog that would allow a child to do about ANYTHING to him, this would be the one. Now, I'd be concerned about his play biting, admittedly. However, pushing him to the point where he would just "snap" and bite them in anger?-- doubtful that would ever happen.
> 
> ...


Thank you Kevin. As usual we are right on the same page. How many ppl die from dog attacks each year? Like 5. people need to focus on the more serious issues. Also I wish the media would stop frickin' advertising pit bull attacks like they are 'hot' news! UGH!

--------------------------------------------
Finally I just want to say that the statement "It's how you raise them" urks me every single time I hear it. Dog behavior is never static. Pit Bulls from fighting rings or abusive homes *CAN* and are rehabilitated. Look at the Michael Vick dogs, if it were all about "how you raise them", none of those dogs would be alive today and surely none of them would be in homes. And its not just Pit Bulls, I believe any dog has the potential to make a great pet, it all depends on the willingness of the owner to make it happen (and yes unfortunately there are some helpless cases but no one should judge a book from its cover)...


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## kevin bradley (Aug 9, 2009)

Lauren,

Oh, there are tons of ironic things we(humans) spend our times worried about....

Think about this one...

Many parents wouldn't hesitate on which to be more concerned with... 
1. sending their kid to a house with loaded guns in the home
2. sending their kid to a house with Pit Bulls
3. sending their kid to a house with a swimming pool


My guess is that even if they wouldn't admit it, they would be most worried about #1 and #2. 

Really PARENTs? Do you have a CLUE that #3 should be the biggest concern to you? Yeah, its not even close.... last time I checked it was FAR, FAR greater that your kid would drown in a neighbors pool than the others. 

And this doesn't even mention the fact that the MOST statistically dangerous activity would probably be DRIVING to the freaking house with the swimming pool and Pit Bulls.


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## kevin bradley (Aug 9, 2009)

Herzo said:


> IKevin I have to agree with you that I'm not usually for things that take more of our rights away but they are going to have to make the breeders more responsible for making sure they get in better hands. I don't think they should all have to be fixed if you are going to breed them then you should have to have a lic other than that then fix away.


Herzo,

Glad we agree.

You know, I'm not out to stomp on anyone's "rights." But I have to ask breeders squawking about "rights"... where are the "rights" of the Pit right now getting his shot of sodium pentobarbital? 

Ask me to choose between the "rights" of human beings breeding Dogs and the potential to decrease the number being euthanized...

I think I've made it clear which way I'd side.


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## lauren43 (Feb 6, 2011)

Ok so I looked it up:

34 people last year were killed by dog attacks (sadly most were reported as pits but who really knows how accurate that is)
1.2 million people last year drown
31,000 people died from gun related injuries last year...

Yep, we need to get our priorities straight...


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## kevin bradley (Aug 9, 2009)

wonderful data, Lauren.

about sums up my argument quicker than I could. 


Rip current warning were up this week on Lk Michigan. I need to check how many were swept away.


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## catahoulamom (Sep 23, 2010)

lauren43 said:


> Finally I just want to say that the statement "It's how you raise them" urks me every single time I hear it. Dog behavior is never static. Pit Bulls from fighting rings or abusive homes *CAN* and are rehabilitated. Look at the Michael Vick dogs, if it were all about "how you raise them", none of those dogs would be alive today and surely none of them would be in homes. And its not just Pit Bulls, I believe any dog has the potential to make a great pet, it all depends on the willingness of the owner to make it happen (and yes unfortunately there are some helpless cases but no one should judge a book from its cover)...


That kinda bugs me too. Whenever I take Rambo out and people ask about him, they usually say "He is so nice! It is all about how you raise them!" I know that it is a compliment, but really - Rambo was a backyard dog straight out of Miami's biggest ghetto. He has scars all over his face from dog bites (I don't know if he was used for fighting and I'm not going to speculate). He has THE best temperament out of all four of my dogs, and guess what? I had nothing to do with it. He has great social skills, not an ounce of aggression, and he came without any training (at least not positive training). While yes, many rescued dogs have issues, and often the pitties do if they come from iffy backgrounds - they are not garbage!!! Dogs move on way faster than humans and if anybody disagrees they should really take a look at the *VICK*tory dogs!


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## Maxy24 (Mar 5, 2011)

It's soooooo not fair to say "stop breeding pit bulls, there are too many!". Well what if I want a pit bull puppy? Getting a puppy (of any breed) from a shelter is a complete crapshoot. Who knows what they'll be like when the genetics come out in adulthood. So as a pit bull lover I'd want a pit bull that acted like a proper pit bull in every way shape and form. So I'd want to go to a responsible breeder who breeds true pit bulls who look and act like pit bulls should. Should I not be able to get a well bred pit bull? Plus there is the fact that pit bulls would eventually go extinct if everyone just stopped breeding them. Then people say "but you can start again when the numbers are down" but then all the remaining pits would be mainly poorly bred or old. The number of high quality (health, temperament, and structure) dogs would be minuscule. 


Now if we think more realistically, if you banned breeding pit bulls (or required neutering them) then people would keep breeding them...the type of people who are okay with breaking the law. Then they'd be the only ones adding pit bulls to the world and they really would become dangerous. We need people to continue creating REAL pit bulls. I agree something needs to be done about the number of homeless pit bulls, but none of them come from good breeders, so we shouldn't be punishing good breeders and good owners.


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## kevin bradley (Aug 9, 2009)

Julie said:


> That kinda bugs me too. Whenever I take Rambo out and people ask about him, they usually say "He is so nice! It is all about how you raise them!" I know that it is a compliment, but really - Rambo was a backyard dog straight out of Miami's biggest ghetto. He has scars all over his face from dog bites (I don't know if he was used for fighting and I'm not going to speculate). He has THE best temperament out of all four of my dogs, and guess what? I had nothing to do with it. He has great social skills, not an ounce of aggression, and he came without any training (at least not positive training). While yes, many rescued dogs have issues, and often the pitties do if they come from iffy backgrounds - they are not garbage!!! Dogs move on way faster than humans and if anybody disagrees they should really take a look at the *VICK*tory dogs!


you mean he didn't come from a "reputable" breeder?

Are you crazy?


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## kevin bradley (Aug 9, 2009)

Maxy24 said:


> Well what if I want a pit bull puppy? Getting a puppy (of any breed) from a shelter is a complete crapshoot.


"what if I, I, I want a PUPPY?"

I feel like this stance is all about the human being and not about the welfare of the Dogs. Human rights to do whatever they want to do... to hell with the Dogs, "don't you dare tough my RIGHTS." 

Let me BOLD this... 6 MILLION DOGS PER YEAR PEOPLE! MANY OF THEM PITS. 

"Don't make laws because the bad people will break them anyway"--yeah? And guess what?... we would then have laws on the books to deal with them.

"No good breeders contribute to the issue" Really? Are you CERTAIN of that? That must be one helluva tough job watching every Pit you bring into the world and adopt out. How about EVERY Pit that gets bred out from Dogs they initially bred? 

Again, I'm pretty libertarian. Do what you want as long as it doesn't hurt anyone. This doesn't apply because 6 million are crying out every year. More if you include the ones living in hell every day of their lives.


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## Herzo (Feb 5, 2011)

I too don't think they should be stopped from breeding them, I just think there needs to be a lic for doing it. Sorry but how else are we going to weed out some of the bad guys. If they don't go to something like this then they are going to continue to ban them in places. I don't see why they can't try something a little less permanent. For lack of a better word.

Would it not be better to say ether have to fix your dog than have to move to keep it? Or they would take it from you. I mean they are banned I think in Denver, Natalie would know, but I thought I had heard that. What happened to all the Pits when they did that? I would surely fix my dog rather than give it up. And if people had to get a lic to breed maybe it would change peoples mind. The fine to have a litter from one could be very high and people need jobs now anyway, so why not create them that way. Pitbull police!!!!!!!!


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## kevin bradley (Aug 9, 2009)

Herzo said:


> I too don't think they should be stopped from breeding them, I just think there needs to be a lic for doing it. Sorry but how else are we going to weed out some of the bad guys. If they don't go to something like this then they are going to continue to ban them in places. I don't see why they can't try something a little less permanent. For lack of a better word.
> 
> Would it not be better to say ether have to fix your dog than have to move to keep it? Or they would take it from you. I mean they are banned I think in Denver, Natalie would know, but I thought I had heard that. What happened to all the Pits when they did that? I would surely fix my dog rather than give it up. And if people had to get a lic to breed maybe it would change peoples mind. The fine to have a litter from one could be very high and people need jobs now anyway, so why not create them that way. Pitbull police!!!!!!!!



I'm ok with that suggestion, Herz.

As I said, I'm NOT against reputable breeders. As long as every Dog gets a good home and is loved and cared for, I don't care if you want to breed.

We're just a helluva long way from that happening right now. 


But, yeah, I guess I'd be comfortable with Pit Breeders needing some extensive testing/regulation before they bring any more into the world. Wonder how many of those fighting rings would qualify for a license?...hopefully none.


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## Herzo (Feb 5, 2011)

Agreed Kevin. I just find it funny, I don't think I have ever heard of another alternative other than ban them, seems like there could be something somewhere in the middle. I guess I would like to know if those places that have ban them have tried anything else. But sadly I think your right it will be a long time coming.

So these dumb sh_ _t's will keep selling to bad or dumb people like the breeder did with Richter. Sell a Pitbull to a kid that had never owned his own dog before. I don't think that the kid was so bad, just way over his head. I did have a little talk to him to try and put a scare in him hoping he would never get a pitbull again. Ha, good luck to me.


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## hmbutler (Aug 4, 2011)

well they've gone further than banning or restricting the breed - the state of Victoria (where the young girl died the other week, from the dog attack) has passed laws enabling them to "destroy" any pitbull breed dogs that aren't registered as of yesterday... so your dog could be doing ABSOLUTELY NOTHING wrong, but if they find out its not registered, then they're going to put it down... I agree all dogs should be registered anyway, but that's going a bit far I think. Heck, my dog isn't even registered (only because we have just moved, and registrations start from 1st October, so if I register him and pay the fee for a year now, then his first "year" of registration will be over on October 1st, so I am waiting until then to register him. He is chipped and has an ID tag though)

Here is the latest story
New Vic laws to crack down on dogs


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## catahoulamom (Sep 23, 2010)

Wow, that's horrible!!


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## hmbutler (Aug 4, 2011)

> A standard for identifying pitbull terriers will also be released to prevent dogs escaping because of uncertainty over their breed.


How's that for twisted thinking? There will be a standard so dog's dont ESCAPE being killed because of breed uncertainty, as opposed to dog's being incorrectly put down when they aren't a pitbull... this is really disgusting


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## Herzo (Feb 5, 2011)

They may have some good law suits on there hands. That really is sick thinking, by goodness we sure don't want one escaping even if it was just taking a little walk. It must be killed, take that Pitbull.


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## hmbutler (Aug 4, 2011)

Herzo said:


> They may have some good law suits on there hands. That really is sick thinking, by goodness we sure don't want one escaping even if it was just taking a little walk. It must be killed, take that Pitbull.


They also introduced, in the laws, that owners are to be criminally charged for their dog (any dog) attacking. I think this part of it is good, because I think the major reason dogs attack is because they are untrained or brought up in a bad environment - I think it is completely fair enough that the owner is held responsible.

The laws were introduced 2 days ago, and the first attack since then occurred late yesterday, and the owner is facing jail time because of it - funny thing is, it was a rotti...


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## Herzo (Feb 5, 2011)

You know maybe it will come out good. They may have to admit it's not just Pitbulls and find out it's all kinds of different ones including many many mixes. I'm going to tell you one thing, after volunteering at the Animal Shelter since 1997 however I only do one day a week, I have found that pitbulls and pit mixes don't do good in a shelter situation. If they are not given I think lots of exercise and human contact they start to get mean. I have seen it happen 3 times although one was mother and daughter so maybe that didn't help and they refused to separate them, so they might have played off each other.

We have one now and I'm not sure shes even 1/2 pit though I think she has it in her, but shes starting to show sign's of becoming aggressive.

I wish they would look into how this dogs are raised and how much attention they get because I think it makes a big difference.


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## RachelsaurusRexU (Sep 4, 2010)

Herzo said:


> You know maybe it will come out good. They may have to admit it's not just Pitbulls and find out it's all kinds of different ones including many many mixes. I'm going to tell you one thing, after volunteering at the Animal Shelter since 1997 however I only do one day a week, I have found that pitbulls and pit mixes don't do good in a shelter situation. If they are not given I think lots of exercise and human contact they start to get mean. I have seen it happen 3 times although one was mother and daughter so maybe that didn't help and they refused to separate them, so they might have played off each other.
> 
> We have one now and I'm not sure shes even 1/2 pit though I think she has it in her, but shes starting to show sign's of becoming aggressive.
> 
> I wish they would look into how this dogs are raised and how much attention they get because I think it makes a big difference.


I have a big problem with these statements. 

I've worked in animal control for 7 years and in a boarding kennel for 2 years before that. I've seen several dogs go "kennel crazy". Yes, some of them have been pit bulls. Some have been huskies, shepherds, Border Collies, several have been small terriers. It can and does happen to ANY high energy or high strung dog stuck in a high-stress environment with little exercise or mental stimulation. About 75-80% of the dogs we get in are pit bulls and many of them have been the most stable, happy, even-tempered dogs I've ever met, even after having been kenneled long term. It is absolutely unfair and untrue to say that pit bulls in general do poorly and become aggressive in shelters.

I've also seen a lot of kennel crazy dogs completely turn around once they were removed from the chaos of shelter life.


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## Herzo (Feb 5, 2011)

RachelsaurusRexU said:


> I have a big problem with these statements.
> 
> I've worked in animal control for 7 years and in a boarding kennel for 2 years before that. I've seen several dogs go "kennel crazy". Yes, some of them have been pit bulls. Some have been huskies, shepherds, Border Collies, several have been small terriers. It can and does happen to ANY high energy or high strung dog stuck in a high-stress environment with little exercise or mental stimulation. About 75-80% of the dogs we get in are pit bulls and many of them have been the most stable, happy, even-tempered dogs I've ever met, even after having been kenneled long term. It is absolutely unfair and untrue to say that pit bulls in general do poorly and become aggressive in shelters.
> 
> I've also seen a lot of kennel crazy dogs completely turn around once they were removed from the chaos of shelter life.


Sorry I'm just stating what I've seen, granted we are a small town so I'm sure not as many dogs as you've seen. I'm not saying it's never any other dog maybe it's that the pits and pit mixes are in there longer than allot of the dogs as they tend to not get adopted as soon. Seems like most of the other breeds just get depressed.

It took a long time for the mother and daughter to get this way it's just sad when it happens and I'm sure they can be turned around. It's just what to do when it does, the more you lock them up the more they get this way. I am there only on Mondays and they don't have as many volunteers as we use to, so that means when they are out in the big yards they have to get along because someone is not out there with them all the time. I stay there for several hours cleaning and being with the dogs and I like to make them all be together and behave, I think it's good for them. But you have to be careful how you leave them in yards.

Oh I'm just ranting because I am getting worried about Braxten and not sure what to do about her. She tore a dogs ear last Monday not to bad and after it was cleaned I put them back together and made them get along. I just watched very closely, so you see she does listen if your right there. But then the wife of the Shelter starts talking about how many dogs has she sent to the vets and how much does that cost, to flippen bad.

I'm trying to get someone to help me take her to classes as I can't in Oct. and classes run through then. And this is why I have a Pitbull because I was afraid Richter would be in there to long and I didn't want him to get that way because the time he was in there before he did very much like to fence fight and he is scarred from that.


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## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

I don't know about most places, but look at the percentage of pit bull/mixes at our local kill shelter:
Pet List Scroller

35 out of 75, or almost 50%. Sometimes when I check the site it's as high as 80%. And that's just the ones they have up for adoption - not the ones they deem unadoptable and euthanize. 

So it stands to reason that you might notice more pit bulls changing personality - but I think most dogs will change in a kennel, espeically if they are high strung in the first place.

I feel sorry for the pit bull rescue groups. The flood of unwanted pit bulls never ends. And Herzo bless you for volunteering. Anything you can give those dogs is a wonderful thing.


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## kevin bradley (Aug 9, 2009)

xellil said:


> I don't know about most places, but look at the percentage of pit bull/mixes at our local kill shelter:
> Pet List Scroller
> 
> 35 out of 75, or almost 50%. Sometimes when I check the site it's as high as 80%. And that's just the ones they have up for adoption - not the ones they deem unadoptable and euthanize.
> ...



Bingo. We have to be careful not to stereotype any breed. Our shelters are absolutely RIDDLED with Pits in Michigan. So any type of behavior observed.... well, it could simply be due to the fact that a helluva large percentage of Pits are stuck in these shelters sadly. 

My guess is that if you infused 10 million Dachsunds into our shelter system tommorrow, you would observe all type of behavior not necessarily only attributable to Dachsunds. 

All that being said, Pits are problematic because any type of negative behavior they MIGHT have is magnified because they are blessed with some of the most awesome, athletic and powerful bodies of any breed. They are stunning specimens and I am in awe of the breed. I love them quite frankly.


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