# Debarking yay or nay?



## GoingPostal (Sep 5, 2011)

Just curious how people feel about it, a lady I know just got her sheltie debarked and now is planning to get her other dog done as well.


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## Makovach (Jan 24, 2012)

IMO it is cruel and selfish. Train your dog, its not that hard. I know I wouldn't ever do it. I think its terrible.


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## kathylcsw (Jul 31, 2011)

No! To me this is like declawing cats. It is cruelty for the convenience of humans. If a barking dog bothers you there are 2 choices - don't get a dog or train them not to bark. Cutting their vocal chords is just cruel and wrong IMO.


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

i think it's a very hot topic. 

and i'm glad i've not faced it.

yet. 

i'm curious as to how one trains a dog not to bark.

i am not a trainer so i am asking this sincerely, not to push buttons.


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## StdPooDad (Mar 16, 2012)

To me, it's mutilation, I don't care what you call it.


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## GoingPostal (Sep 5, 2011)

This lady in particular should not own dogs imo, she didn't move lately or get new neighbors, this isn't her first sheltie, so it's not like she wasn't aware they bark. She's just a stupid dog owner. She's the local humane society's adoption coordinator and major member, she fosters cats/kittens mostly and doesn't grasp that having strange small prey like animals running around her completely unexercised and untrained dogs is not a smart idea especially when her dogs are herding and northern breeds. 

Sheltie #1 was a double merle, mostly blind and deaf and she had it euthed after it grabbed a kitten and injured it. Then she ran out and got this sheltie #2, rehomed him because he barked and chased the cats, new owners lost the dog, she got it back a couple months later, said she was keeping him forever, a couple months after that she told me she was rehoming him because of the behaviors, then the sheltie rescue in the state convinced her to keep him and just debark him. Now she wants to debark the husky puppy as well. This is the lady who was 100% behind the Cesar Milan wannabe the HS brought up and raved about how well his training advice was working. She drives me crazy, bitches about anybody else who dumps an animal but goes out and gets dogs horribly suited for her lifestyle and pulls this crap. Seriously 1 minute worth of research before adding a sheltie or husky would have said they are vocal dogs and they are prone to prey driven/herding behavior.


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## Little Brown Jug (Dec 7, 2010)

Not going to lie, and think what you want about me but I've thought about debarking Ranger. It's beyond annoying and he just doesn't stop once he starts. Snot bubbles out of his nose he barks he gets into such a frenzy. I've never seen anything like it. We were sealing a driveway one day, from 7am to 8pm he barked. Non stop. Even Boone was irritated enough to start biting at him. Maybe we lack patience enough to get him out of it or just aren't doing it right, at most we lasted two days of ignoring him during his frenzies. We've lasted a day of verbally correcting him and/or making a loud sound. I doubt we ever would debark him but the thought has passed...


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## kady05 (Jul 29, 2011)

Most of the dogs I know that have been debarked make this HORRID noise instead of a bark. Much more annoying than an actual bark, IMO. 

If I had a dog that barked that much, I'd use a bark collar. I did when Piper was younger and thought waking me up at 5am was cool. One use of the collar and she stopped for good. Problem solved.


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## chowder (Sep 7, 2008)

When I was working at the vets we lost a dog during surgery that had come in to be debarked. There was absolutely nothing else wrong with it, it just reacted badly to the anesthesia and died. Of course, we tried everything from cpr to heart stimulation and all but couldn't bring it back.

I always thought that is was such a waste to put that poor little dog through all that, just to debark it because the owners thought is was too noisy. It was a Sheltie. If you don't want a dog that barks, don't get a Sheltie. They should come with signs around their little puppy necks....'warning....may bark, often'.


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## IslandPaws4Raw (Sep 7, 2011)

I think debarking would be a last resort situation. Even then the only thing it accomplishes is lowering the decibel level, because they can still bark. If I had an incessant barker I would go with whatever bark collar would work for when I'm not home, and just plain teaching them to quit it when I am.
My trainer's sheltie is debarked, he was in a kennel situation before they got him. He just has a hoarse bark now instead of that ear piercing sheltie bark. And you are right Kady, it is just as annoying as a regular bark.


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## _unoriginal (Apr 8, 2012)

Honestly if you've exhausted all options as far as training, behavioral modifications, and bark deterrences (including electric bark collars) and you're still unable to get the dog past the barking and are at risk of losing the dog, yes, I'd debark the dog.

My aunt's mother had a dog that was a retired movie dog. He was actually the Briard on the movie cover for "Buddy". He was debarked. I remember the sound he used to make and while it wasn't a _pleasant_ sound, it wasn't as disturbing as some people make it out to be.


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## xchairity_casex (Oct 8, 2011)

i think as a VERY last resort then yes if its between loseing your house and possably having to have your dog pts and yuve exhuasted all options then i would say yes get the dog debarked.
some people are not able to jsut up and mvoe to a new place/house. some people cannot afford to become homeless due to there dogs barking but i do find it very very cruel.

how to teach a dog NOT to bark?
easyily useing posative reinforcment.

first you must teach them to bark on command
everytime they bark reward tehm with a treat while saying "speak!" or "BARK!"
once they can bark on command begin to teach 'quiet"
ask them to bark, when they stop to be rewarded wait a second and say "quiet" then reward.

it wont take very long before your dog learns the command to be quiet.


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

and here i thought that barkers were born, not necessarily breed related.

i had four shih tzus....only one was an incessant barker.

my pug barked at everything and once he stopped being so scared and jumpy, he didn't bark as much.

he'll never stop barking at the fed ex truck and the ups truck or dogs on tv, but we didn't so much train him out of it, i just don't think he's a barker.

so from what i'm reading....it seems y'all are saying it's breed related.....but i've seen plenty of breeds who bark incessantly....


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## chowder (Sep 7, 2008)

magicre said:


> and here i thought that barkers were born, not necessarily breed related.
> 
> i had four shih tzus....only one was an incessant barker.
> 
> ...



Well, some is breed related. You would be hard pressed to find a Chow that barked repetitively. I"m sure there may be some BYB Chows somewhere that bark, but a well bred, breed standard Chow is just not going to be a barker. When the UPS man comes to our house, Shade runs to the window and woofs as loud as he can.....and Rocky runs right up behind him and stands there looking really fierce - without making a sound! 

Rocky has barked before we got Shade. But now that we have him, Rocky has no need to bark anymore. Chelsy was a barker, but Lhasa's were bred to be watch dogs. She didn't bark excessively though, just when someone came. Now my MIL's toy poodles - those are some dogs that I would consider debarking. They yap that high pitched screetch and she never taught them to shut up. She just yells back at them and between the human yelling and the dogs screetching you want to tear your hair out. 


Can you debark a Mother in law?


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## GoingPostal (Sep 5, 2011)

magicre said:


> and here i thought that barkers were born, not necessarily breed related.


Central Illinois Sheltie Rescue - Home

Some dogs are just yappy, but shelties are known to be barkers and it's pretty common in the breed community from what I've seen to debark, most of the rescue sites even cover it as a normal possibility of owning one. A known trait of the breed so unless you didn't bother to do any research you shouldn't be shocked and she's owned the breed before. 

I don't know, it just seems to me that in this case she should have just followed through with rehoming the dog and hopefully never get another, it's not going to solve the other issues she has with him and is a permanent mutilation on a dog who hasn't even had training for it, she seriously went off on someone local looking for a bark collar but debarking is ok? And then why get another known vocal breed like a husky, I have never met one that isn't a talker. The last time I stopped over she just kept yelling the dogs names at them while they yapped away. They don't seem to ever get played with or exercised and when they get in the way she built a pen to put them in so they can annoy the neighborhood instead, honestly I think the debarking is so she can put them out there longer and longer.


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## xchairity_casex (Oct 8, 2011)

Bull Terriers are not big barkers either. doesnt mean they never bark thou.

cesar doesnt need to bark to scare the hell out of someone if they tried coming in he roars, quite litterly he lets out this ver frightening roar. its like one long growl that sounds like it could go into a bark but never does.
terrafied my bf once doing it cesar was asleep on the couch and my bf went down the hall way and made a creek ti was dark and Cesar jumped up and went running to the sound going
"GGGRRRRAAAAWWWWWWW" my bf screamed and that was enough for Cesar to realize who it was and become all wiggly. bf said he abouth ad a heart attack, i dont blame him, even now when he does it it scares me to hear.


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## Liz (Sep 27, 2010)

Well until I purchased my sheltie girl I would have agreed with you. My previous shelties were predominantly show dogs - the ones I had growing up. They barked but it was manageable and they could be taught to stop. We then got into collies - supposedly collies are terrible barkers - we didn't have a problem for twenty years in collies. I bought this little sheltie - she comes from agility/obedience lines and is a living nightmare where barking is concerned. Every time her feet touch the ground out side she barks and will bark continuously. We tried every training method possible, bark collars, citronella collars, and regular shock collars, we taught her to bark on command (she liked that), I tried everything. It got to the point where she could only go out on leash, worse yet she has led her two pups and was beginning to lead my collies to the dark side. We did bark softened her, her two pups, and one collie who had gone over to this evil barking side. There was nothing left and I do believe some of it has to do with her working lines. I have never had a dog who enjoyed the sound of her own voice so much. She still barks happily as do her pups but I can let her exercise off leash again and she doesn't drive us crazy. It is a quirky bark but not piercing and ear splitting so it is better. The collie who have not been bark softened have gone back to being quiet and controllable only barking here and there. Cherri gets to stay and her pups can run and play to their hearts content. For me it was a last ditch effort - again this level of barking is uncontrollable. I am breeding her to a less driven line in the hopes of controlling this aspect. Maybe bringing down the drive a bit and making the barking something that can be controlled with training. We shall see.  

My friend has also done the bark softening on her mini schnauzers - she was in danger of getting evicted. Messy divorce and she had to go back to work. Again collars didn't work and even the puppy day care complained about their barking. So they are quieter and get to stay with the only owner they have ever known and she gets to keep her condo.  

Is it right in every circumstance - no. Not just for convenience, but sometimes the drive to bark is unmanageable/untrainable and in those cases, yes I would rather see a dog debarked than lose its home. And yes, I was with my dogs throughout the procedure and it was done in about 10 minutes anesthesia and all.


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## chowder (Sep 7, 2008)

I like your idea of trying to bring down the barking through breeding down that particular driven trait within the line. Maybe some of the excessive barking in certain breeds is from breeding too high a working drive. If those dogs were out in a field all day long working their little buns off, it might not matter but since they are not, the barking doesn't have an outlet for them. 

It seems to come down to dogs doing what they are bred to do. Excessive barkers need to have something to bark at ....like a herd of sheep or cows or something.


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## Liz (Sep 27, 2010)

In some breeds I do think it is breed or work centered. Collies are more physical herders they tend to stare and physically bump whereas shelties tend to use eye contact and barking to move a herd. Watch some agility shelties - they literally bark every time their feet hit the floor. Sometimes it is a fearful or aggressive response and though I hate to say these are easy cases at least their is a reason for the barking and if you take of the fear or aggression the barking usually calms to a normal level.


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## Sprocket (Oct 4, 2011)

I think its terrible. Don't like a dog barking? Don't get a dog because thats what dogs do. 

Pretty easy.

I also agree that the noise they make is just as irritating. Like listening to a smoker of 50 years talk.


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## wolfsnaps88 (Jan 2, 2012)

I would not do it personally. I have heard a debarked dog...sounds like it was a chain smoker or something. Weird. 


It is sad people do this. I was watching an interesting documentary (I will post it in a separate thread for those interested) where dogs are actually using their bark to communicate with humans. And most humans can tell what different barks mean. Such an amazing accomplishment and people want to take that away? What other animal learns to make noises just for humans???

In a sense, it is like tail docking and ear cropping, you are taking away a dog's way to communicate. This surgery should only be used as a way to save a dog from being put down. If an owner has already tried training and will be forced to get rid of the animal because of barking, then maybe I can see where it may be needed...as a last resort! But sadly, people are lazy and want to take the easy way out. So sad. 

And remember, the dog has to go under the knife and have anesthesia which is always a risk...so for something so superficial, I find that pretty repulsive.


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## KittyKat (Feb 11, 2011)

I'd like to take away plenty of people's ability to talk.

Do I do it? No.... but legalities may be the only thing stopping me...


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## Dude and Bucks Mamma (May 14, 2011)

I had a debarked brittany. He was debarked because my stepdad's neighbors couldn't even sell their house because of Hoss. It never bothered me because he could bark and bark and bark to his heart's content and never got yelled at for it like most dogs do. Hoss's was no more than a whisper.

It bugs me when people say, "If you don't like barking don't get a dog because that's what dogs do" because that same idea can be applied to spaying and neutering. For most people spaying and neutering is no more than convenience just like debarking. My parents and grandparents are spaying their dogs simply because an intact female is an annoyance and an inconvenience. They are not doing it for the health of the dog. They aren't even doing it with unwanted litter prevention in mind. They are doing it for their own convenience.

That is just my personal opinion.


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## malluver1005 (Nov 15, 2009)

GoingPostal said:


> Just curious how people feel about it, a lady I know just got her sheltie debarked and now is planning to get her other dog done as well.


Against it. You are taking a part of who the dog is away.


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## meggels (May 30, 2010)

I was very fearful that Abbie would get in trouble, or get me in trouble, when we moved into an apartment because she was a fear barker...any small noise would set her off.

I did look into it, and was bashed by many for considering it.

We have been here for almost a year and she's very much improved and we haven't had any noise complaints so far *knock on wood*

A few neighbors have said they hear her bark for a minute, and then she stops very quickly. thank god. 


But I did honestly consider it for fear of being put into a "get evicted or get her to shut up" kind of situation.


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## catahoulamom (Sep 23, 2010)

I couldn't do it. I like that my dogs bark, they are not neusance barkers but if they were and I had no other option I would honestly move before I'd debark my dog. But this is coming from someone who is moving to a different county next March so I can live more comfortably with my dogs and not have to worry about my neighbors complain about their breed.


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## Celt (Dec 27, 2010)

I think that there are certain situations where debarking is a viable option. Some dogs seem to not be born with a working "off" switch. Sister had a dog (chihuahua) once he got started he'd bark himself hoarse. Didn't matter what she did (I tried too 'cause I didn't believe her), that dog was definitely a little screwy. I do think that debarking shouldn't be done until "all" other methods have been tried first, except in situations where the dog may lose its home or life as those are more important than having a "good" bark.
sidenote: debarking doesn't actually silence most dogs, just "muffles" the bark.


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## GoingPostal (Sep 5, 2011)

Liz said:


> I bought this little sheltie - she comes from agility/obedience lines and is a living nightmare where barking is concerned. Every time her feet touch the ground out side she barks and will bark continuously. We tried every training method possible, bark collars, citronella collars, and regular shock collars, we taught her to bark on command (she liked that), I tried everything. It got to the point where she could only go out on leash, worse yet she has led her two pups and was beginning to lead my collies to the dark side. We did bark softened her, her two pups, and one collie who had gone over to this evil barking side. There was nothing left and I do believe some of it has to do with her working lines. I have never had a dog who enjoyed the sound of her own voice so much. She still barks happily as do her pups but I can let her exercise off leash again and she doesn't drive us crazy. It is a quirky bark but not piercing and ear splitting so it is better. The collie who have not been bark softened have gone back to being quiet and controllable only barking here and there. Cherri gets to stay and her pups can run and play to their hearts content. For me it was a last ditch effort - again this level of barking is uncontrollable. I am breeding her to a less driven line in the hopes of controlling this aspect. Maybe bringing down the drive a bit and making the barking something that can be controlled with training. We shall see.


I was hoping a sheltie person would chime in, but this makes me curious, if you have a dog who is that incessant and uncontrollable with barking, why breed her? Especially since it sounds like her pups are the same way so wouldn't it make more sense not to reproduce a dog like that? I understand they are a vocal breed but seems like obsessive behavior. I also wonder why it's so popular to debark in this breed, but most small dogs I know are yappy as hell and no one really debarks them? I'm not 100% against it, if it's a dog getting killed or debarked I would pick the latter but I don't support it in this case at all.


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

GoingPostal said:


> Central Illinois Sheltie Rescue - Home
> 
> Some dogs are just yappy, but shelties are known to be barkers and it's pretty common in the breed community from what I've seen to debark, most of the rescue sites even cover it as a normal possibility of owning one. A known trait of the breed so unless you didn't bother to do any research you shouldn't be shocked and she's owned the breed before.
> 
> I don't know, it just seems to me that in this case she should have just followed through with rehoming the dog and hopefully never get another, it's not going to solve the other issues she has with him and is a permanent mutilation on a dog who hasn't even had training for it, she seriously went off on someone local looking for a bark collar but debarking is ok? And then why get another known vocal breed like a husky, I have never met one that isn't a talker. The last time I stopped over she just kept yelling the dogs names at them while they yapped away. They don't seem to ever get played with or exercised and when they get in the way she built a pen to put them in so they can annoy the neighborhood instead, honestly I think the debarking is so she can put them out there longer and longer.


i've read about dogs who are sort of natural barkers...yet, i spent an entire afternoon with a sheltie in a parking lot with cars and people and the dog never opened her mouth once.

that's why i ask.

shih tzus and toy poodles and lhasas are supposed to be barkers....and i've had many of them. some yapped and some didn't.


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## mischiefgrrl (Oct 28, 2010)

KittyKat said:


> I'd like to take away plenty of people's ability to talk.
> 
> Do I do it? No.... but legalities may be the only thing stopping me...


That's EXACTLY what I was thinking. LOL


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## Noodlesmadison (Sep 18, 2011)

GoingPostal said:


> Just curious how people feel about it, a lady I know just got her sheltie debarked and now is planning to get her other dog done as well.


I think it's extremely inhumane and have seen dogs suffer because of it. People who do this should be charged with cruelty


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## Liz (Sep 27, 2010)

Going POstal, you do raise excellent points. We bred her partiularly because of her working drive. It is a catch 22 - I want a dog that can work but the incessant barking has to be toned down. Out of her litter of four we ended up with exactly what I wanted - healthy, tempermentally sound, structurally balanced workign dogs. One is competing in agility, two are service dogs and one is a show pup who will be training as a therapy dog. The same drive that producies working ability and that high intelligence is the drive that promotes the barking and almost excessive alertness. If she had other outstanding faults I would not have bred her. Knowing she is passing this on I can pick an appropriate male to breed her to and see if this barking issue can be more controlled. It seems as long as these dogs are working they are quiet and efficient at their job but the moment boredom sets in or they get into play form they just can't shut up. I hope that answers a bit. We have a waiting list for puppies out of this girl specifically because of her-her pups drive to work. I have four families waiting for a service dog and two waiting for agility dogs. They know what they are getting.


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## GoingPostal (Sep 5, 2011)

Interesting and thank you, wasn't sure if you bred for pets or working homes, really makes a difference and lots of high energy dogs are not really good "pets" for most people. I know there are plenty of breeds I couldn't deal with and we try to be fairly active, but on the lazy or busy days I love my bullies off switch and willingness to snooze. I wish more people would put the effort into finding a dog suitable for their situation or at least put some work into the dog. 

I do think some exercise and mental training would do wonders for the sheltie that got debarked and the other dog I don't think is even a year old yet. I would be honestly surprised if she still has either dog in a years time, there will be another incident with the cats or each other, the sheltie guards and redirects with the other dog and goes after the cats whenever he's revved up.


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## ShanniBella (Jul 1, 2011)

I think it's in the same category as declawing a cat....CRUEL! But I also know people who think spaying and neutering is borderline cruel and unnatural so who am I to say. I personally am for S/N but again ripping out claws and vocal cords isn't my thing. I have a cousin who owned 2 debarked shelties....poor things sounded horrid when they did try to bark. Apparently the breeder believed in debarking so my cousin never had a say in the matter because they were 6 and 7 months when he got them and already had it done.


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## _unoriginal (Apr 8, 2012)

Noodlesmadison said:


> I think it's extremely inhumane and have seen dogs suffer because of it. *People who do this should be charged with cruelty*


Yea... That's one of those extremes where you're messing with someone's livelihood over something that's really none of your business. You can disagree with what someone does with their dogs to no end but to suggest it's even in the same class as animal abuse is just ignorant.


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## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

I don't know that I would get a dog de-barked, but I know I couldn't live with a dog that barked constantly. 

In fact, a little over a year ago we took a dachshund on trial and he barked incessantly - unfortunately, my elderly dad was living with us and he couldn't sleep night OR day. My only options waere to put a bark collar on him or put him in the garage, so I returned him. If not for my dad I would have worked with him to see if I could reduce the barking but I didn't have the luxury of time.

If it was a choice between someone giving up a dog or getting it de-barked, I think debarking wouldn't be the worst of the two.

And I don't think barking is always a training issue. I think some dogs just bark all the time.

I don't compare it with de-clawing, either. A dog doesn't defend itself from predators, climb, etc. with a voice box.


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## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

Sprocket said:


> I think its terrible. Don't like a dog barking? Don't get a dog because thats what dogs do.
> 
> Pretty easy.
> 
> I also agree that the noise they make is just as irritating. Like listening to a smoker of 50 years talk.


snorkels' has a smoker's bark. But she's definitely not been debarked - she's louder than Rebel.


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## Liz (Sep 27, 2010)

All I can say is from havign a debarked dog is she doesn't know she is debarked. She is happy as a clamm barking furiously when someone comes to the door. She will herd the other dogs and bark constantly. She whines, she even sheltie talks, it is jsut softer and without the sharpness. I can honestly tell you she does not lack for communication skills and it does not faze the un debarked dogs - they seem to understand her just fine.  The only difference is me and everyone in the neighborhood are retaining their sanity. She is also more free to play and enjoy herself without being scolded, shocked, citronella sprayed, on leash at all times, or otherwise always being in training. She is a special girl and her pups are dolls who can almost read your mind and now they can enjoy themselves and i can enjoy them.


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## meggels (May 30, 2010)

The Ibizans I lived with were debarked, and I didn't think their bark was that bad. Hoarser, but not annoying sounding, to me.

It's certainly not a procedure in which you "rip out the vocal chords" as someone else said...that is just incorrect.


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## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

It was explained to me as just trimming a little piece off. 

I don't know if it's cruel because I don't know exactly what is done, but I do know the dogs I've known that have been debarked haven't seemed like they missed it any.


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## meggels (May 30, 2010)

Yeah, it's just trimming or using laser to alter them a bit.

Puppy mill operations are known to use very inhumane techniques to do it themselves, but your vet doesn't rip your dogs vocal chords out.


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## splitnightsky (Jun 20, 2011)

magicre said:


> and here i thought that barkers were born, not necessarily breed related.
> 
> i had four shih tzus....only one was an incessant barker.
> 
> ...


I've been told it is breed related, but I think I more agree with you Re.

I was warned before I got a Corgi - _they are herding dogs. they bark constantly. they never stop. be prepared._
and yet...Scorch rarely barks. I mean, he's vocal when someone is at the door or he hears someone out in the street, 
but he's not barking every 5 seconds. he even uses a soft bark when he knows I'm sleeping for less serious things.
that way if it was an emergency it would wake me up. trust me, people who have stayed over tell me he does this.
it's more his memory that effects his annoying barking habits - he'll forget someone is in the house and go off on them when they suddenly reappear. 

my parents also have two shih tzus, and other than barking as you come in the door they don't at all.
and yet my aunt has 6 and they bark constantly. 

as to the issue at hand, I would have to be about to be evicted or him taken away for me to debark. 
I love the fact that he can wake me up from my coma sleep with his loud bark, and it works for protection. 
so yeah, I'd say I'm slightly indifferent but more on the side of waiting first to see if it can be trained out.


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## Gally (Jan 28, 2012)

For those who were wondering how you train a dog not to bark kikopup made a very good video series on the subject:
Dog Training- How to train your dog not to bark- Episode 1 - YouTube
How to train your dog not to bark- episode 2- scary objects - YouTube
Barking- Episode 3 - barking on a walk -dog training - YouTube
Barking Episode 4- Barking at Strangers- Dog training - YouTube
Barking Episode 5- Barking at Dogs Behind Fences - YouTube


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

Liz said:


> All I can say is from havign a debarked dog is she doesn't know she is debarked. She is happy as a clamm barking furiously when someone comes to the door. She will herd the other dogs and bark constantly. She whines, she even sheltie talks, it is jsut softer and without the sharpness. I can honestly tell you she does not lack for communication skills and it does not faze the un debarked dogs - they seem to understand her just fine.  The only difference is me and everyone in the neighborhood are retaining their sanity. She is also more free to play and enjoy herself without being scolded, shocked, citronella sprayed, on leash at all times, or otherwise always being in training. She is a special girl and her pups are dolls who can almost read your mind and now they can enjoy themselves and i can enjoy them.



i don't disagree with this procedure.

i have a list of people i'd like to see this procedure performed. i would do no less for the dog.


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## Maxy24 (Mar 5, 2011)

I don't like the idea, but I don't know which I find worse, debarking or shocking. I think shock collars are cruel, so I don't know if I'd prefer to see a dog debarked or zapped. I guess it would depend on how much pain is associated with the surgery.

I wouldn't do either personally, if I was going to evicted or something I'd have a hard decision to make.


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

Maxy24 said:


> I don't like the idea, but I don't know which I find worse, debarking or shocking. I think shock collars are cruel, so I don't know if I'd prefer to see a dog debarked or zapped. I guess it would depend on how much pain is associated with the surgery.
> 
> I wouldn't do either personally, if I was going to evicted or something I'd have a hard decision to make.


i think there are worse things we can do when faced with something that seemingly cannot be stopped.

i have thought about it and i do not consider myself a cruel person....but when faced with a dog who will not stop. ever. yes. i would debark. 

i have read about the procedure and it's a simple one. no worse than what i would do if i had to get bubba's ears cleaned again. which i'm facing due to his narrowed ear canals.

i would not debark a dog for going off at the fed ex truck, but if i had a dog who barked non stop all day every day...yeah, i probably would.


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## InkedMarie (Sep 9, 2011)

I'm a sheltie person, have had three. My first two were boys, they both barked but stopped when told to. Then, we adopted an elderly sheltie. Within six months of getting her, whatever hearing she had was gone and boy, could she bark! We tried everything: whispering to her so she would stop barking to hear us didn't work, she couldn't hear! Citronella collar didn't work. Tried an electronic collar, on vibration; no dice. Tried it on the lowest level of stimulation but it didn't work and i felt guilty and couldn't turn it up.
I personally couldn't debark a dog but i think there are instances I'd be okay with it. If it was rehome a dog who is with loving owners who could lose their residence due to the barking or debark the dog, I'd agree with debarking.


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

i think there are circumstances that are extreme and some of those circumstances call for extreme measures. 

whether it's cruel or inhumane is a matter of personal opinion....but the procedure is certainly less invasive than spaying....and it might not be ideal....but sometimes it is the lesser of two evils.

i think there are people who would put a 'barker' to sleep....under those circumstances or the chance the dog goes to the pound or just gets dumped out of a car, de barking doesn't sound so bad.


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## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

Do they have a de-whining operation? Or de-drooling?

I might consider one of those.


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## InkedMarie (Sep 9, 2011)

There is no way I would ever put a dog to sleep due to barking. Hard for me to even think about that, makes my heart hurt


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## meggels (May 30, 2010)

magicre said:


> i think there are circumstances that are extreme and some of those circumstances call for extreme measures.
> 
> whether it's cruel or inhumane is a matter of personal opinion....but the procedure is certainly less invasive than spaying....and it might not be ideal....but sometimes it is the lesser of two evils.
> 
> i think there are people who would put a 'barker' to sleep....under those circumstances or the chance the dog goes to the pound or just gets dumped out of a car, de barking doesn't sound so bad.



I agree. It might not always be ideal, and sometimes training can help...but I was mostly worried about possibly being evicted. You hear stories all the time "dog has to be quiet or your have to go with it" and then I thought...hm debark Abbie with simple procedure and keep her in her home or have to rehome her after 2 years?? Knowing she was a dog who would never rehome well...it was the lesser of two evils.


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## Liz (Sep 27, 2010)

Everyone is allowed to their opinions of course but I feel these minor surgeries that keep a dog in their home and the owner with a home are the lesser evil. I would love not having this be the case and it would be wonderful if everyone could live on farm and have tons of property for their dogs to play on but this won't happen either so spaying-neutering-debarking and even though I hate it declawing of cats ( it scares me that the cat would have no weapon if he got out) is part of the price of living in communities. So many think these "mutilations" are horrific but never think twice about injecting our pets with toxins in vaccines, poisoning them with topicals and many other chemicals, pumping them full of steroids and anti biotics as medical treatment and feeding them according to what is convenient to us not necessarily healthy for them. I think these are true cruelty and would love to report those incidences. OOOPps an't that's what is routinely called "animal care". Sorry to sound snarky but I guess I am and tire of benign things that do not contribute to the lasting health and well being of our pets be blown out of proportion but constantly poisoning them is seen as caring.


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## StdPooDad (Mar 16, 2012)

You've got some good points! I never really looked at it from that angle.


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## meggels (May 30, 2010)

Well said Liz


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## GoingPostal (Sep 5, 2011)

xellil said:


> Do they have a de-whining operation? Or de-drooling?
> 
> I might consider one of those.


We threatened Nero with de-legging to stop him from jumping the fence. Also de-tounging the lot of them for excessive licking.


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## Liz (Sep 27, 2010)

*De whining*

LOL - I hear some people with huskies would gladly do at least a two legged de legging and after pet sitting a dane that whined incessantly in this mono tone the de whining would have been handy. That Dane made you want to stick an ice pick in your ear to deafen yourself. Thank goodness he calmed down and relaxed. LOL :biggrin:


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## Sprocket (Oct 4, 2011)

I believe we can pick and choose what each of us are comfortable with regarding alterations on our animals.

There is no need to compare and contrast procedures as if one persons opinion is right and one is wrong. Some are comfortable with some things and others are not. I would never debark my dog and I consider the operation a convienience for humans, not unlike kibble. 

I don't like cropping or docking but I don't see anything wrong with docking a dog that has continued happy tail issues. There is a difference.

Of course this is all opinion and not to be debated.


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## DaneMama (Jun 27, 2008)

*N*ay with a capitol N...in bold and italics. Its the lazy thing to do. If you have the $$$ to spend on the surgery, you have the $$$ to spend on a quality, skilled and respectful trainer that will help do things the right way. And I say "you" as a general statement...Not actually you LOL


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## skadoosh (Jun 11, 2012)

I think it's situational. Some dogs will not shut up not matter what kind of training you do. However, some people give up too easily and don't want to put the effort necessary into figuring out what the root of the problem is.
I wouldnt do it myself, but then- I don't have a particularly vocal dog either


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## Scarlett_O' (May 19, 2011)

ShanniBella said:


> I think it's in the same category as declawing a cat....CRUEL! But I also know people who think spaying and neutering is borderline cruel and unnatural so who am I to say. I personally am for S/N but again ripping out claws and vocal cords isn't my thing. I have a cousin who owned 2 debarked shelties....poor things sounded horrid when they did try to bark. Apparently the breeder believed in debarking so my cousin never had a say in the matter because they were 6 and 7 months when he got them and already had it done.


Sorry, but it's nothing about ripping anything out. They snip a small amount of the tab, no scar, no true surgery, dog is back to total normal within a few hours, eating normal at next meal. 

Everything Liz has said already is exactly how I feel. I also have always said NEVER, NEVER, EVER!!!!! ..........that was before Keeva. 
She is now a happy, go-lucky, perky, daddy's princess who happens to have her bark quieted. She doesn't sound all that weird, but also doesn't have to be on a 5' leash at all times and not be allowed to play with others because of getting her a$$ kicked for continually barking in their face. I have 2 other Border Collies(and am baby sitting her litter mate brother,) I wouldn't think of doing any of them(even if Hugz was mine).....she was born with a love of noise, any noise....and was more then happy to provide it!!:wink:
But like Liz said, it's all about personal opinion. I'm not going to be that mom who ignores their brat screaming at other kids just cause "she is just a kid", or who try's everything short of a good swat and nothing works.....if a swat-or bark quieting-is what needs to happen then so be it. But I would dare anyone to come over any time and find the "unhappy", "un-trained" dog who is "debarked" out of my 5 babes!:thumb: (these are all things I've been accused of by people who have heard of me having Kee "done".)


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

it should probably be stated that the vocal chords are not 'ripped out'. 

if you want to be against something, fine, but let's not make this more than the procedure it is.


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## SaharaNight Boxers (Jun 28, 2011)

I am a situational person. If it's going to benefit the dog in any way I'm for it. It could mean the difference between rehoming or keeping a loved and cherished pet. I've heard collies that have been debarked. At first I was wondering "what the heck is wrong with them?" then I remembered debarking. This was at a show so I think it might've been more of a convenience thing. It was kind of sad to listen too, I was scared at first because I thought they were choking. They seemed fine though. I don't think it Hirt them or anything.


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## MNBark (Jan 23, 2013)

Old thread, I know, but I wanted to respond here -- first post, too -- in case anyone in the future searched Sheltie Debark.

There are things that come with various breeds, and Shelties are barkers. No one should get the breed without being prepared to accept it, or without having the patience to work on curbing it in a positive way.

I remember going to see my first Sheltie -- this is pre-rescue, which is how I obtain all my furry family now -- and having the mother dog meet me at the door, and escort me down to the basement where her babies were playing in a child's pool. She seemed so wonderfully proud, and sweet. I thought, "yeah, I hope my puppy grows up to be just like her." Well, that puppy was very beloved to me, and he grew up to have a wonderful temperament, and to be ... perfect. I have loved other dogs since -- have had 4 other Shelties (rescued) since, and soon to be five in a few days, but he was my heart dog. And he was very like his mother.

Years after I got him I decided to contact the breeder to say "hi." These were in the AOL days, and I saw him on line. I was sickened to find out that this lovely dog who I'd so wanted my dog to be like, died due to the build up of scar tissue after a debark gone wrong. While I know the owner meant her no harm, it seemed so unnecessary.


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## Sprocket (Oct 4, 2011)

Its even worse when its a breeder who debarks their dogs. WHY are they breeding a dog that has a trait that they don't even like?


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## MNBark (Jan 23, 2013)

Absolutely. The people were backyard breeders, and I didn't know better. (The whole discussion of what they fed the puppies ... eesh.) I think people need to be respectful of breed traits/traits dog is exhibiting. That doesn't mean that they can't responsibly deal with issues, but it does mean that if you can't handle something that is common in the type of dog that you are considering, you need to move on. If barking is an issue, don't get a Sheltie. If someone bouncing a tennis ball off the wall at 3am is not something you can calmly deal with, no Jack Russell for you. Select a dog the way you should select a spouse -- no matter how pretty you think that person is, if you don't look beyond the surface, really understand the things in common and the differences, and then take that and know you can live with it all post the first infatuation, then you need to keep looking. 


The most gorgeous dog will lose their appeal if they're not right for your lifestyle, and the most raggedy mutt will be beautiful of your spirits align. 

I could see a debark as a last resort -- will be evicted, dog is not a candidate for rehoming -- but it's such a drastic and unfair thing for something that has limited success.


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## Rvent (Apr 15, 2012)

Absolutely not, I do believe it is cruel, like declawing. Although I must admit there are days I would love to rip out Babs's voice box right out of her throat because she never stops barking..... when we found her she was so hoarse from her apparent barking problem. Even though I hate the non stop barking I would never even seriously consider it. I sometime wonder if Macy was though, sometimes she has the strangest type of bark, never heard anything like it, but on occasion it sounds more like a bark should.


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## Noodlesmadison (Sep 18, 2011)

It's unbelievably cruel and selfish. It's one of the most inhumane things you can do to your dog. (aside from abuse, etc.) This actually is abuse though.


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## Sheltielover25 (Jan 18, 2011)

Here's my thing with debarking: How is it any more cruel than altering your pet? I mean, putting them under is always risky, which happens in both. Bark softening as it should be called is similar to laser surgery for humans in that it lasers off layers of the vocal cords to the pitch isn't as high. They recover the same day, and even eat the same day a lot of times. When I spayed my girls, it took 2-3 days for them to be feel completely better and to boot one developed spay incontinence. I think spaying/neutering is done purely for convenience most of the time; other countries that have banned sterilization have no problems with over abundance of pets so you can't argue it's needed to keep the pet population under control; unless Americans are just incredibly more irresponsible than other people in the world. So what's the difference? Sure scar tissue can be an issue, rare, but like anything, risks are there. How is it any worse than giving your animal something like heartworm medicine that poisons its body every month, month after month slowly hurting the organs... that's okay but then altering your animal so it can live with you and not cause you to get kicked out of your apartment is so evil? It makes no sense to me.

Do I think it's ideal? No. But then again I think altering an animal's HORMONES is a LOT more twisted and would cause a lot more issues than simply softening a dog's bark.


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## MNBark (Jan 23, 2013)

Neutering IS the most concrete way we have to reduce pet overpopulation -- because people ARE irresponsible, even if I can't break it down by country. I've witnessed animals dying specifically because of overpopulation and owners refusing offers of free sterilization, with no plan to prevent the next litter, or the one after that. What do you think happens when there are x amount of cages at a shelter, double the animals coming in, all the fosters are tapped, and all the other shelters are in a similar situation? 

I said I could see debarking if the alternative is eviction, but a debark solely because you selected a breed that barks? As much as you -- the general you, not you you -- might like a breed, it might not be suited for your lifestyle, and rental situations mean you need to take into account how likely it is for a dog to annoy the neighbors in the course of it being true to its breed. 

While I do not agree with the procedure, for the reasons stated, I don't believe that this alone makes an owner bad, and that we need to look at the whole picture. If it saves the dog, and all other avenues have been exhausted, do it. However, it is not something I would do. I think my story, while anecdotal, has a place in this thread, and that knowledge shaped me. 

On a slightly different note, before the weekend is out, I should have my first (rescue) blue merle -- have had sables, and tris.


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## InkedMarie (Sep 9, 2011)

MNBark said:


> Neutering IS the most concrete way we have to reduce pet overpopulation -- because people ARE irresponsible, even if I can't break it down by country. I've witnessed animals dying specifically because of overpopulation and owners refusing offers of free sterilization, with no plan to prevent the next litter, or the one after that. What do you think happens when there are x amount of cages at a shelter, double the animals coming in, all the fosters are tapped, and all the other shelters are in a similar situation?
> 
> I said I could see debarking if the alternative is eviction, but a debark solely because you selected a breed that barks? As much as you -- the general you, not you you -- might like a breed, it might not be suited for your lifestyle, and rental situations mean you need to take into account how likely it is for a dog to annoy the neighbors in the course of it being true to its breed.
> 
> ...


Ooh! What's the dogs story? My first sheltie was a Tri, next was a big blue merle, then a red sable (a rescue, age 11 when we got her) and we just adopted a 9yr old sable less than two weeks ago!


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## meggels (May 30, 2010)

I'm understanding of debarking if it's a "debark the dog or the dog loses it's home" situation. When you are put into a situation like, there's only so much you can do. 

But the majority of situations I've heard of, are NOT that. They have been people getting breeds, that are CLEARLY vocal breeds, and then debarking them for their own benefit.


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## suebisaga (Sep 23, 2012)

I believe debarking is better then re homing or sending a dog to a shelter. I have 8 dogs all herding breeds all bark a lot. None are de barked although sometimes I wish two of my cattle dogs were. I have used bark collars but they only work when you have a single barky dog. Dog with collar doesn't bark because he's collar wise but other barky dog barks and shocks quit dog in collar. I have to buy like 4 or 5 collar to shut everyone up.
I also believe de clawing is better then getting rid of the cat but as a last resort not as a automatic kitten thing.
No I would not want to loose the tips of all my fingers but I also wouldn't want to loose my home or life because I had to bark non stop or claw up everything I could.

Sue


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## MNBark (Jan 23, 2013)

InkedMarie said:


> Ooh! What's the dogs story? My first sheltie was a Tri, next was a big blue merle, then a red sable (a rescue, age 11 when we got her) and we just adopted a 9yr old sable less than two weeks ago!


I ended up with a different dog. The foster mom couldn't let him go.  

We'd always been torn between that dog and another, but the second dog -- the one we now have -- intimidated my husband due to being a flight risk, older, and from a puppy mill. He is the sweetest thing, but he doesn't understand humans at all. (And he's another tri -- gorgeous.)


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