# Does this food sound good?



## jenna5225 (Sep 12, 2016)

Hi there, 

I adopted a 3 year old sheltie cross about 3 months ago from a lady who could no longer care for her. She was feeding her pre mixed raw food, and we just decided to continue with that. The food is made locally and this is what it contains: 

- Chicken 40%
- Beef (red meat and bone) 15%
- Beef (internal organs, tripe, kidney, heart) 20%
- Fish 20%
- Cooked Eggs 5%
Dry matter feed analysis shows 48% protein, 33% fat and 6% ash. The ingredients are fine ground and mixed together then frozen.

I also sometimes add a little bit of herring oil to this.

She has been eating this most of her life which is why I stuck to it, and the price is great so I am hoping to continue with it. She is doing really well on it, her stools are perfect, her energy is good, and her coat looks great!

The only problem I seem to be having is she has itchy skin. She is treated for fleas and ticks so that is definitely not the issue. I have notice on her inner back things in the crease of her leg seems to be quite red. I don't often see her licking it, but she may do so when we are not home. Is there something I should be adding to her food to help with this? Her skin is not dry all over, most areas look fine, it is just random areas will get dry and itchy. At one point it was the area above her tail, but right now the worst spot seems to be on her inner thighs. 

Any advice is appreciated! 
Thank you!


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

dry matter feed analysis? 
what is being fed which is dry?

stop the herring oil and see if that makes a difference.

since her diet is mostly chicken, her skin issues can be directly related to that. she needs raw eggs, not cooked....

and she needs more red meat.

i don't know how this company gets 48% protein....when animals range between 17-22%...

dogs run on fat as their energy source.....

what your dog is eating is too much chicken, too much fish......


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## naturalfeddogs (Jan 6, 2011)

This is why I don't feed commercial food. 48% protein? Like re said, animals have around 20%. 

If its listing "dry matter", and "cooked eggs", its probably not really raw anything. Commercial companies can call it anything they want to sell the product.

In short, no its not really a good diet. Are you interested in feeding prey model raw? You will know exactly what you are feeding that way.


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## jenna5225 (Sep 12, 2016)

naturalfeddogs said:


> This is why I don't feed commercial food. 48% protein? Like re said, animals have around 20%.
> 
> If its listing "dry matter", and "cooked eggs", its probably not really raw anything. Commercial companies can call it anything they want to sell the product.
> 
> In short, no its not really a good diet. Are you interested in feeding prey model raw? You will know exactly what you are feeding that way.


Thank you both for your input! I am very new to the whole raw feeding thing and am just learning. I would prefer to stick to feeding pre made raw as I am just more comfortable with that, however I am open to ideas if that is what is best for my dog. I don't really know where I would get the meat from though if I were to do it myself, as I dont personally eat meat. There also seems to be a lot of different opinions on the amounts of different things you should feed. Would you be able to tell me where I can look to get a sample recipe? 

Again thank you very much!


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## naturalfeddogs (Jan 6, 2011)

Ive been buying a lot of mine at Walmart lately, but if you research what's in your area, you can find cheap and sometimes free meat from butchers, people cleaning out freezers etc....

In short, starting with chicken quarters is usually best for the first week or so, then move on to turkey, pork and other red meats. Then organs ate usually last or somewhere in the middle if all is going well. 

You start with the blandest easiest to digest protein and move up as your dog adjusts. By feeding all the variety of meat/bone/organ that you can, the better. That's how you create balance.

What you are feeding now isn't nutritionally complete, and you may run into nutritional deficiencies down the the road.


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## jenna5225 (Sep 12, 2016)

naturalfeddogs said:


> Ive been buying a lot of mine at Walmart lately, but if you research what's in your area, you can find cheap and sometimes free meat from butchers, people cleaning out freezers etc....
> 
> In short, starting with chicken quarters is usually best for the first week or so, then move on to turkey, pork and other red meats. Then organs ate usually last or somewhere in the middle if all is going well.
> 
> ...


Thank you!! I have actually found another brand of pre made raw that is sold in pet stores and is well known around here. It is called Big Country Raw, Does this seem to be more nutritionally complete compared to what I am feeding now? They do recommend supplementing their meals with some herring oil. This is an example of what is in their Beef blend: 

Beef Muscle Meat, Finely Ground Beef Bone, Beef Organ Meat (liver, kidney, spleen), Apples, Carrots, Organic Kale, Organic Spinach, Organic Blueberries, Organic Cranberries, Organic Kelp

Nutrition Facts

per 100 grams

Calories

186

Moisture
68%

Fat
14%

Protein
15%

Fibre
3%


Additional Product Info:

Muscle Meat

65%

Organ Meat

10%

Bone Content
15%

Fruit and Vegetable
10%


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

hi....is there a reason you want to feed commercial raw?

oh. never mind...i just saw your answer.....

here's the thing....commercial raw, generally, is not very balanced.......especially when fruits are included. dogs should never have sugar or carbs for that matter.

you can, depending on where you live, 

order from

Free Shipping! Grass-fed, pastured, raw pet food FREE delivery

http://www.hare-today.com

http://www.rawfeedingmiami.com ------they have starter packs and also offer a service for people who are new...and will build an order for you

i don't know enough about this company and would wonder about them...do your research and make sure they aren't feeding downer cows in their mix......plus they probably use a pasteurisation process of some kind and that makes the bacterial imbalanced......

personally, i'd start with chicken....

how much does your dog weigh?


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## OldGnarlHead (Feb 17, 2016)

I don't eat meat either, Im actually vegan, and I usually buy from Meijer, Payless, and Walmart. Meijer has the best pork, Payless the best chicken and turkey, and Walmart has the best odds and ends. We also will buy some stuff from our local butcher block if they have it for a good price. It can seem pretty off putting at first but I think PMR is better than pre-made, since you have complete control over what they're eating. It usually comes out to be cheaper, from what I've seen,


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## jenna5225 (Sep 12, 2016)

OldGnarlHead said:


> I don't eat meat either, Im actually vegan, and I usually buy from Meijer, Payless, and Walmart. Meijer has the best pork, Payless the best chicken and turkey, and Walmart has the best odds and ends. We also will buy some stuff from our local butcher block if they have it for a good price. It can seem pretty off putting at first but I think PMR is better than pre-made, since you have complete control over what they're eating. It usually comes out to be cheaper, from what I've seen,


I just feel overwhelmed thinking about doing it myself as there is sooo much information out there I don't know where to start or how much of each different thing to feed.. I see people talking about how the ratios are important and I wouldn't want to mess anything up!


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

and i truly wish people would stop talking about this as if it's a science......they confuse you at worst...and at best, they are wrong.

this is not so difficult......honest. overwhelming, yes. and only because for sixty years or more, other people have been inundating us with bad info on what to feed our dogs, as if they knew...

which, they do not. 

the people who know are the ones chasing wolves around and reporting back, over the years.......and generally disputing as wrong information, much of what you've been giving yourself
a headache about

same goes for most of us....who listened to these guidelines someone pulled out of their patootie.........

truth is, dogs are carnivores.......anatomically and physiologically. this is fact and facts don't lie. the way the dog is built tells you what they eat. how they are built tells you why they eat what they eat.

so.

protein. fat. bone. organ.

that's it.

if you tell me how much your dog weighs, i promise you we can get you started and on your way with a little bit of hand holding.


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## jenna5225 (Sep 12, 2016)

magicre said:


> i don't know enough about this company and would wonder about them...do your research and make sure they aren't feeding downer cows in their mix......plus they probably use a pasteurisation process of some kind and that makes the bacterial imbalanced......
> 
> personally, i'd start with chicken....
> 
> how much does your dog weigh?


I just realized this company has a "pure blend" as well, without all the added fruits etc. For example their pure chicken blend only contains Chicken (meat & bone), and Chicken Liver. Their meat is all antibiotic / hormone free and their chickens are free range, and beef is grass fed. It comes in duck, rabbit, turkey, beef, chicken, kangaroo... they seem to have a lot! also she weighs 63 lbs


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## jenna5225 (Sep 12, 2016)

magicre said:


> if you tell me how much your dog weighs, i promise you we can get you started and on your way with a little bit of hand holding.


Thank you so much, it is definitely overwhelming for someone who is new to this and looking for information on how to get started. She weighs 63 pounds.


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

at sixty three pounds, i would start with chicken quarters.

i would feed 18 ounces to start









if, at the end of the first week, you are still feeling overwhelmed, then go with this company but start with chicken, keeping in mind that this company puts organs into
their grinds....

we tend to start with gentle and build up to complex proteins.........with a balance over time.....


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## jenna5225 (Sep 12, 2016)

magicre said:


> at sixty three pounds, i would start with chicken quarters.
> 
> i would feed 18 ounces to start
> 
> ...


Thank you! I have about a month of her current raw food to finish up and then I will try this.. Or maybe I will start incorporating it in with the other food. Is it bad that this company puts organs into their grinds? I thought they were supposed to eat the organs? 

Thanks again!


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

i would put the other food back in the freezer and start over. save the other stuff for emergencies.

organs......ah, that depends on who is talking.

talk to me? i think we over feed organs.

if you look at that chart i posted, you'll see vitamins a, d, e, k. these are fat soluble vitamins. no one pees these out if given too much, as with water soluble vitamins......the kidneys filtrate those and discard/excrete what is not needed.

with organs, however, these are fat soluble vitamins......and they are used when needed, stored when not needed.

what happens if we are overfeeding organs. who determined organs were to be 10% of the diet, liver being five....

ever watch a pack of wolves hunt? 

one gets the liver. one.

the rotation of organs is determined by hierarchy and how good the kill was.

is that the perfect solution? no...but it illustrates a point. there are lots of reasons wolves die.......in the wild........

but our dogs are in a controlled environment....we feed them daily......they don't fast until the next kill. they have us preparing food.

so that changes things a little. 

i feed organs about once a month for a week.......i also feed eggs.......once a month or so......

these are the conclusions i've come to believe........i go by anatomy and physiology......


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## naturalfeddogs (Jan 6, 2011)

jenna5225 said:


> I just feel overwhelmed thinking about doing it myself as there is sooo much information out there I don't know where to start or how much of each different thing to feed.. I see people talking about how the ratios are important and I wouldn't want to mess anything up!


You won't mess anything up. The ratios are just guides, that's all. In the end, feed all the variety you can and it will all come together.

First, get some chicken quarters. Feed those only for about the week and half, and see how it goes during that time. Right now, don't think about anything but chicken. A quarter or two a day. That's it. Then, let us know how things are going and we will guide through any potential issues.


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## OtherGuy (Nov 30, 2016)

There are known nutritional requirements for canines. The PRM ratios are an excellent way to ensure the correct nutrients and the balance of minerals are provided in the diet.

Science is our friend, and not the enemy. It is not necessary for every raw feeder to do his or her due diligence by checking known nutrients in the UDSA database against known nutritional needs, but those who do so will discover the PRM ratios were not just settled no without cause.

I'd suggest Jenna make it easy on herself by following PRM ratios as closely as possible when (and if) she decides to make her own meals. 

Following PRM ratios for meals insures optimal nutrition, makes digestion easy, virtually eliminates issues of either loose stools or constipation, and maintains the critical calcium/phosphorus mineral balance.

Keep it simple.


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

OtherGuy said:


> There are known nutritional requirements for canines. The PRM ratios are an excellent way to ensure the correct nutrients and the balance of minerals are provided in the diet.
> 
> Science is our friend, and not the enemy. It is not necessary for every raw feeder to do his or her due diligence by checking known nutrients in the UDSA database against known nutritional needs, but those who do so will discover the PRM ratios were not just settled no without cause.
> 
> ...


i'll go with keep it simple. 

but, from where do these guidelines originate?


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## OtherGuy (Nov 30, 2016)

magicre said:


> i'll go with keep it simple.
> 
> but, from where do these guidelines originate?


I'm not sure which person (or persons) is/are responsible for originating PRM ratios. My understanding is the model is predicated on reproducing an approximation of prey percentaces canines would have evolved to eat over eons in the wild.

What is clear is that 10% bone (relative to 80% "meat" and 10% organ) does a great job of keeping the critically important calcium to phosphorus ratios dogs require in the correct balance. Serious veterinary problems can result from an imbalance ratio of these minerals.


10% organs helps keep vitamin and other nutrients on target. 

The PMR numbers do check out when compared to our best understanding of veterinary canine nutrition.


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

OtherGuy said:


> I'm not sure which person (or persons) is/are responsible for originating PRM ratios. My understanding is the model is predicated on reproducing an approximation of prey percentaces canines would have evolved to eat over eons in the wild.
> 
> What is clear is that 10% bone (relative to 80% "meat" and 10% organ) does a great job of keeping the critically important calcium to phosphorus ratios dogs require in the correct balance. Serious veterinary problems can result from an imbalance ratio of these minerals.
> 
> ...


when tom lonsdale wrote 'raw meaty bones', his recommend was, if memory serves, 50% bone......he talks a lot about feeding carcasses......
when my friend writes about her journey following wolves, she writes about what they eat. and it is nowhere near the 80-10-10.......'guideline' someone made up.......
the san diego zoo feeds beef heart and whole chickens, along with some rodents......the washington d.c. zoo feeds kibble...shame on them.
ian billinghurst included all kinds of vegetable/fruit matter....and dogs cannot digest this...

i will say this.

one thing that strikes me is how people seem to 'need' numbers, rather than just feed real food..
secondly, it's a balance over time, not balance per meal.

but we'll agree to disagree and i'll turn this thread back to the original poster.


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## OtherGuy (Nov 30, 2016)

magicre said:


> when tom lonsdale wrote 'raw meaty bones', his recommend was, if memory serves, 50% bone......he talks a lot about feeding carcasses......
> when my friend writes about her journey following wolves, she writes about what they eat. and it is nowhere near the 80-10-10.......'guideline' someone made up.......
> the san diego zoo feeds beef heart and whole chickens, along with some rodents......the washington d.c. zoo feeds kibble...shame on them.
> ian billinghurst included all kinds of vegetable/fruit matter....and dogs cannot digest this...
> ...


I'd say that Tom Lonsdale's original suggestions have been roundly (and rightly) criticized for being nutritionally unsound.

If one cares to read an exchange between him and a PRM advocate named Carrie Coineandubh (who wipes the floor with him) it is improbably archived on Lonsdale's website:

http://www.rawmeatybones.com/pdf/RawVet Prey Model 06.pdf

The problem with the balance over time approach is that it can lead to very bone heavy meals (that are an assault to dogs' digestive systems) and bone-light of bone-free meals that can also challenge a dog's digestive system. The same thing happens when organ heavy "make-up" meals are fed instead of regualr small feedings. In the former case dogs can get the squirts. When organs are fed daily in PMR ratios that potential for upset is eliminated.

Balanced meals have multiple advantages in their favor, where—for dogs—the balanced over time approach offers no advantages, while carrying the disadvantage of risking GI distress from too much bone, too little bone, and too much organ in a given meal. 

Feeding real food in ratios that help owners meet canine nutritional needs helps keep raw feeding both simple and nutritionally sound.


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## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

Other Guy sounds eerily like Spy Car.


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## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

But, I will address this. There's a very good reason to feed a balance over time, and that's because something like a duck head is two days worth of bone one of my dogs. If I cut that duck head in half he misses out on the time and chewing and teeth cleaning it takes to eat that duck head whole. If I feed my large dog a very large bone like a shoulder roast bone, he might go three days without bone. It takes him a long time to eat a shoulder roast. It's good for him to do so, and there's no way it's bad for him, or somehow hard on him to get that much bone at once. At some point you're just feeding grinds to make sure they get exactly the same amount of everything every day. I don't know any true raw feeders that feed that way, and there's certainly no negative effect on a dog to eat like a dog.


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## OtherGuy (Nov 30, 2016)

xellil said:


> But, I will address this. There's a very good reason to feed a balance over time, and that's because something like a duck head is two days worth of bone one of my dogs. If I cut that duck head in half he misses out on the time and chewing and teeth cleaning it takes to eat that duck head whole. If I feed my large dog a very large bone like a shoulder roast bone, he might go three days without bone. It takes him a long time to eat a shoulder roast. It's good for him to do so, and there's no way it's bad for him, or somehow hard on him to get that much bone at once. At some point you're just feeding grinds to make sure they get exactly the same amount of everything every day. I don't know any true raw feeders that feed that way, and there's certainly no negative effect on a dog to eat like a dog.


This raw feeder doesn't feed grinds unless there is an item (like green tripe) that I just can't get whole. I never feed ground bone.

I'm also risk averse when it comes to feeding large bones that can crack teeth, and prefer limiting bone to soft-edible bone. To each their own on risk assessment.

Is a duck head two days worth of bone for a large dog?

Bill


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## naturalfeddogs (Jan 6, 2011)

xellil said:


> Other Guy sounds eerily like Spy Car.


Because he is.....


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

OtherGuy said:


> This raw feeder doesn't feed grinds unless there is an item (like green tripe) that I just can't get whole. I never feed ground bone.
> 
> I'm also risk averse when it comes to feeding large bones that can crack teeth, and prefer limiting bone to soft-edible bone. To each their own on risk assessment.
> 
> ...


no, bill....a duck head would not be two days of bone for a large dog.

duck heads, however, are wonderful for teeth and for jaw strengthening......plus, they have eyes and brains


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## OtherGuy (Nov 30, 2016)

magicre said:


> no, bill....a duck head would not be two days of bone for a large dog.
> 
> duck heads, however, are wonderful for teeth and for jaw strengthening......plus, they have eyes and brains


I've never been fortunate enough to find a local supplier for duck heads. I wish I could. Like you I believe in the positive benefits to dog's teeth and jaw/neck muscles that come with gnawing and chewing. And getting eyes and brains is a plus, with you there.

I have been sporatically able to get chicken heads. I'd think they should be an easy score, but they are a rare item with my local raw dog butcher. I would like to feed more regularily.

The one bird head that was a bust for us was ostrich heads. I could not believe the density of the skull in an ostrich head. They are like rocks.


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

i can see where ostrich heads might be too hard, but i also, when i can, score goat and lamb heads.......they are like toys for dogs to toss about and chew on.......

chicken heads are cool....especially if you can get the dog to eat the feathers...nothing like a little vacuuming of the intestinal tract.......

rabbit heads are also good. we used to get them from hare-today.com but can't anymore....

we have a restaurant supply house, believe it or not, which supplies duck heads for us......large asian community and duck head soup is to die for 

if there are chicken farms near you......and many farmer's markets have them, you can ask for their heads and feet....


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## OtherGuy (Nov 30, 2016)

magicre said:


> i can see where ostrich heads might be too hard, but i also, when i can, score goat and lamb heads.......they are like toys for dogs to toss about and chew on.......
> 
> chicken heads are cool....especially if you can get the dog to eat the feathers...nothing like a little vacuuming of the intestinal tract.......
> 
> ...


Yes, the chicken heads we get have feathers. The dog chomps them up. Good thought on the famers market, as we have a chicken farm in the area that comes, I didn't think about asking them (I just wonder if they'd be an inexpensive sourse?). Never hurts to ask.

I've done both whole and split labs heads (our local market actually carries split ones). But I've personally gotten cautious with bones that might cause fractures of teeth. We're our dog to break a tooth, I'd be a dead man with the wife, so....


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

OtherGuy said:


> Yes, the chicken heads we get have feathers. The dog chomps them up. Good thought on the famers market, as we have a chicken farm in the area that comes, I didn't think about asking them (I just wonder if they'd be an inexpensive sourse?). Never hurts to ask.
> 
> I've done both whole and split labs heads (our local market actually carries split ones). But I've personally gotten cautious with bones that might cause fractures of teeth. We're our dog to break a tooth, I'd be a dead man with the wife, so....


that's what i like about larger heads...not cow, but pig, goat or lamb.....because the dogs gnaw and scrape.......i too am leery about weightbearing bones and very dense bones...we don't feed legs, antlers, bones like that...even turkey drumsticks are not a favourite here. i don't like the way they splinter.....

i was the only buyer who asked about heads and feet. and then word got out about bone broth......within a few years, they got wise and started charging me for feet and heads....which was fine.....they didn't charge much.


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## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

A duck head is worth about 3 days worth of bone for my smaller dog. I give him something smaller the third day, and then boneless again the next. They never eat the same amount of bone every day. And I don't feed bones that crack teeth. Shoulder roast bones are perfect for larger dogs. 

If you're giving the exact same amount of bone every day, then you're giving bones that aren't big enough for your dog to get the benefit of a raw diet. IMO. I have a dog that eats 6 oz a day. That would be about a third of a chicken foot. He'd never have anything to chew on. My big dog doesn't even chew a drumstick, and a chicken quarter would be way too much bone for one day. So he'd suffer the same fate. 

I do give organs every day, but a dog can't use up the nutrients any faster or slower if you give them every day or now and then. If it's easier to do it once a month and it doesn't give your dog diarrhea, why not? They're not china dolls. They can live off of a garbage dump. They eat their own feces. And their jaws were made to tear things apart and crush bones, which tells me that they most certainly are built to eat more bone one day than the next.


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## OtherGuy (Nov 30, 2016)

magicre said:


> that's what i like about larger heads...not cow, but pig, goat or lamb.....because the dogs gnaw and scrape.......i too am leery about weightbearing bones and very dense bones...we don't feed legs, antlers, bones like that...even turkey drumsticks are not a favourite here. i don't like the way they splinter.....
> 
> i was the only buyer who asked about heads and feet. and then word got out about bone broth......within a few years, they got wise and started charging me for feet and heads....which was fine.....they didn't charge much.


I meant to say "lamb heads" not "lab heads" as you seemed to figure. The latter would be so wrong 

It is funny when otherewise "waste products" get to be in demand with a price soar. Hard to imagine a big market for chicken heads, but...


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## OtherGuy (Nov 30, 2016)

xellil said:


> A duck head is worth about 3 days worth of bone for my smaller dog. I give him something smaller the third day, and then boneless again the next. They never eat the same amount of bone every day. And I don't feed bones that crack teeth. Shoulder roast bones are perfect for larger dogs.
> 
> If you're giving the exact same amount of bone every day, then you're giving bones that aren't big enough for your dog to get the benefit of a raw diet. IMO. I have a dog that eats 6 oz a day. That would be about a third of a chicken foot. He'd never have anything to chew on. My big dog doesn't even chew a drumstick, and a chicken quarter would be way too much bone for one day. So he'd suffer the same fate.
> 
> I do give organs every day, but a dog can't use up the nutrients any faster or slower if you give them every day or now and then. If it's easier to do it once a month and it doesn't give your dog diarrhea, why not? They're not china dolls. They can live off of a garbage dump. They eat their own feces. And their jaws were made to tear things apart and crush bones, which tells me that they most certainly are built to eat more bone one day than the next.


I see that things would be trickier with a very small dog. Not sure I agree that a medium-large dog couldn't have 10% soft-edible bone daily with all the benefits and little-to-no risk of either dental damage or GI upset.

Nutritionally it seems reasonable that balance-over-time would work for organs, but practically I think few dogs could handle eating a months worth of organs in one meal without getting diarrhea. While not China Dolls (I grant you) a fair amount of time on such forums is spent on the topic of "cannon butt," which is a phenominom whose occurance won't happen due to daily organ feeding, but would be likely with once a month feedings. 

For me 10% bone meals are the same. They virtually ensure a nice easy digestive tract experience for the dog and perfect stools coming out on a daily basis. So no consitpation, no irritation of the intestines from overly-boney meals, no vomiting, and no cannon-butt.

Raw feeding is awesome for dogs—I'm sure we all agree—and I begrudge you (or no one) for following one mode vs another. I do think its worthwile for potential newcomers to see that there are a diversity of ways to feed that work for people and to have advocates for different options present their reasoning for their choices. Respectful dialogue is a good thing.

Thanks for having this exchange. I look forward to more.


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## Herzo (Feb 5, 2011)

So exactly how do you get the 80-10-10 in every meal? It seems like it would be such a pain in the ass. But I am very curious how you portion out your meals. Do you freeze say, a weeks worth at a time?


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

Herzo said:


> So exactly how do you get the 80-10-10 in every meal? It seems like it would be such a pain in the ass. But I am very curious how you portion out your meals. Do you freeze say, a weeks worth at a time?


in the beginning, i actually pre made their meals. 

at the time i had an 18 lb pug and a 38 lb malia .....and each meal was 80-10-10.

i don't do that anymore


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

OtherGuy said:


> I see that things would be trickier with a very small dog. Not sure I agree that a medium-large dog couldn't have 10% soft-edible bone daily with all the benefits and little-to-no risk of either dental damage or GI upset.
> 
> Nutritionally it seems reasonable that balance-over-time would work for organs, but practically I think few dogs could handle eating a months worth of organs in one meal without getting diarrhea. While not China Dolls (I grant you) a fair amount of time on such forums is spent on the topic of "cannon butt," which is a phenominom whose occurance won't happen due to daily organ feeding, but would be likely with once a month feedings.
> 
> ...


see what happens when there are no undertones? 

there are some methods which you and i would probably consider, just plain wrong; but, in the raw feeding world, there is leeway....some, at least.

i just look at dogs, according to physiology and anatomy and feed accordingly.

i do feed my dogs organs on a monthly, sometimes even less frequently...but i have a belief about organs which does not seem to be shared by many ......


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## OtherGuy (Nov 30, 2016)

Herzo said:


> So exactly how do you get the 80-10-10 in every meal? It seems like it would be such a pain in the ass. But I am very curious how you portion out your meals. Do you freeze say, a weeks worth at a time?


What I do is to breakdown items into "portions" as I get them, packing most things into "snack-sized" zip lock bags, and some (like quarters) into sandwich sized bags. Like items are then bagged together in large zip locks.

My freezer has shelves organized with bags that have a variety of bone-in items, boneless items, connective tissues, fish, and organs.

I cut organs to 10% portions (approx) before I bag and freeze them.

At meal time I pull out a bone-in piece, then complement it with several boneless selections and an organ. I do liver every other day. On the off day I'll do kidney, pancreas, spleen, or other.

Meals come together really easily. It is just mix and match from pre-packaged items.

I find this method quite simple. Pre-packing individual meals would be a pain. I just have items ready to go. And then assemble diverse meals on the fly based on what I have, with an attempt to maximize diversity of proteins over the week while staying near the mark with PMR ratios.

I can honestly say that after well over a thousand meals that my Vizsla never suffers gastric distress or diarrhea or constipation. It is simple. It makes sure organs get fed (as I never miss a day) and ratios stay on track (which I'm convinced is important for maintaining the proper mineral balance of calcium and phosphorus).

I should also say the 80/10/10 balance is approximate, not exact. I know the bone percentages of items I feed and I eye-ball the complimentary items. If I know I've got a slightly bone-heavy meal one day I'll adjust the next one. Completely second-nature at this point.

Bill


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## OtherGuy (Nov 30, 2016)

Double post. Sorry.


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## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

OtherGuy said:


> What I do is to breakdown items into "portions" as I get them, packing most things into "snack-sized" zip lock bags, and some (like quarters) into sandwich sized bags. Like items are then bagged together in large zip locks.
> 
> My freezer has shelves organized with bags that have a variety of bone-in items, boneless items, connective tissues, fish, and organs.
> 
> ...



My dogs never suffer gastric upset either, at least from food. One of them poisoned himself with berries once. And I had a dog that had something wrong with her and she was always constipated. Their poops are the same every day. I have never once figured up how many meals I have fed - until now. It's well over 7000 -14,000 if you count that I feed twice a day. I honestly don't know what that has to do with anything. 

There are people who have fed tens of thousands of raw meals. Magicre has fed more raw meals than I have, and she feeds liver once a month. I would trust that she knows what she's doing. She always has a caveat - know thy dog. Nothing is set in stone. Just because you feed your dogs a precise amount every day doesn't mean everyone should. I sure don't feed that way, nor would I. If someone wants to, great. If they don't it's no big deal. A dog will always tell you when you're feeding it the proper ratios.


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## OtherGuy (Nov 30, 2016)

xellil said:


> My dogs never suffer gastric upset either, at least from food. One of them poisoned himself with berries once. And I had a dog that had something wrong with her and she was always constipated. Their poops are the same every day. I have never once figured up how many meals I have fed - until now. It's well over 7000 -14,000 if you count that I feed twice a day. I honestly don't know what that has to do with anything.
> 
> There are people who have fed tens of thousands of raw meals. Magicre has fed more raw meals than I have, and she feeds liver once a month. I would trust that she knows what she's doing. She always has a caveat - know thy dog. Nothing is set in stone. Just because you feed your dogs a precise amount every day doesn't mean everyone should. I sure don't feed that way, nor would I. If someone wants to, great. If they don't it's no big deal. A dog will always tell you when you're feeding it the proper ratios.


I don't see how it would be possible to feed organs once a moth at anywhere near 10% as it would require three days worth of exclusive organ feeding to hit that mark. And I don't think many dogs would take that without getting the squirts.

I gather she doesn't feed organs in PMR ratios. My understanding of canine nutrition leads me to follow a different path.

Bill


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

OtherGuy said:


> I don't see how it would be possible to feed organs once a moth at anywhere near 10% as it would require three days worth of exclusive organ feeding to hit that mark. And I don't think many dogs would take that without getting the squirts.
> 
> I gather she doesn't feed organs in PMR ratios. My understanding of canine nutrition leads me to follow a different path.
> 
> Bill


my understanding of canines and their nutrition leads me to follow a different path. 
and, thanks, Xellil.........


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## naturalfeddogs (Jan 6, 2011)

I think we all follow a little different path with feeding our dogs, but it takes us all to the same destination in the end. Healthy raw fed dogs.


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## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

OtherGuy said:


> I don't see how it would be possible to feed organs once a moth at anywhere near 10% as it would require three days worth of exclusive organ feeding to hit that mark. And I don't think many dogs would take that without getting the squirts.
> 
> I gather she doesn't feed organs in PMR ratios. My understanding of canine nutrition leads me to follow a different path.
> 
> Bill


It's not three days. It's about a week. If I have a dog that I feed a pound a day that's thirty days. Ten percent of that is three pounds. Three divided by 7 is about .4 pounds, or about 6.4 ounces a day for 7 days. So 9.5 ounces of meat, 6.4 ounces of organ. It's easily doable. Just because you don't do it doesn't mean other people don't do it very successfully. 

Admittedly, you couldn't do it with a dog that gets the squirts easily. But magicre isn't the only person who feeds this way.


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## OtherGuy (Nov 30, 2016)

xellil said:


> It's not three days. It's about a week. If I have a dog that I feed a pound a day that's thirty days. Ten percent of that is three pounds. Three divided by 7 is about .4 pounds, or about 6.4 ounces a day for 7 days. So 9.5 ounces of meat, 6.4 ounces of organ. It's easily doable. Just because you don't do it doesn't mean other people don't do it very successfully.
> 
> Admittedly, you couldn't do it with a dog that gets the squirts easily. But magicre isn't the only person who feeds this way.


Not to be disagreeable, but that is not a "once-a-month" feeding, but a 7 times-a-month feeding compacted into one week.

I don't see any advantage to the dog. And believe it would cause explosive diarrhea in many (or most).

If a dog could tolerate it (a big *if* in my estimation) it would probably work nutritionally for the fat soluble vitamins.

Bill


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## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

It's not an advantage to the dog, or a disadvantage. It's an advantage to a human. I have two dogs that could do that easily, and one that might or might not be able to do it. It's easier for me to feed organ daily but if it was easier to do it once a month, I would. 

I don't know, maybe there are people who feed three pounds of organs in a day. Dogs come from a long line of canines who are genetically bred to gorge. Some people also fast their dogs once a week. Some people throw out a whole goat carcass and let their dogs go nuts on it, and then not eat again for a few days. Dogs don't have to have the exact same amount of everything every day. It's the way they are made.


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## naturalfeddogs (Jan 6, 2011)

Ive thrown out whole deer carcasses and let the dogs at it for several days. They have always done fine with it.


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## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

naturalfeddogs said:


> Ive thrown out whole deer carcasses and let the dogs at it for several days. They have always done fine with it.


If i could get a whole deer carcass I would do it. I'd have to take it up at night if they couldn't finish it all. I have fed them road kill, but that's just rabbits.


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## naturalfeddogs (Jan 6, 2011)

Are there no deer processors around your area? Ours are about 30 minutes away, but worth it.


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## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

Yes, several. We also have deer bounding through our pasture on a daily basis. I could shoot one sitting on my back porch. We sit and look at them instead, because my husband loooves them and looks so horrified if I mention shooting one I haven't had the heart to make him cry. I also know 2-3 people who want to come hunt at my house and will leave me everything but the backstrap. Don't judge me! LOL!

I get venison from friends who hunt, and friends who are cleaning out their freezers from hunting, but not whole carcasses.


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## naturalfeddogs (Jan 6, 2011)

Whole carcasess from processors is free...maybe that would make him change his mind?


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

believe it or not, i can get imported lamb carcass from my business costco......

i don't do it, because they look a wee bit stripped and i doubt my dogs would cooperate with each other, especially the mastiff...who has an 'everything is mine' attitude


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