# Urgent advice needed



## woganvonderweidenstrasse (Nov 22, 2012)

Hi all

On Saturday we are leaving for a 2 week holiday in Kleinmond. My boyfriend's brother and his wife will also be there and they own a white Swiss shepherd/retriever male. This dog is now 10 months old and is NOT socialized, he is also not trained in any way. My pup has been bitten by him once before when they visited us, and I'm afraid he will do it again. From the first incident I got the feeling that his aggression was from fear and insecurity. He has been neutered since then, so I was wondering (hoping) if this will have changed anything? Or will he still bite my pup? Any scars would mean I can not show my pup anymore, but my bigger fear is that his confidence will get hurt if he gets bitten again, and then I will not not be able to train him in Schutzhund, or it will be more difficult to rebuild his confidence. I'm not sure what to do or how to keep my boy safe from this dog. On the one hand I feel I should just keep them separated at all times and not take any chances. On the other hand I really want them to get along, otherwise this will be one very stressful holiday.
Has anyone had a similar experience? Or any advice on what I should do?


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## Gavin (Feb 14, 2012)

Hi

I'm not any sort of trainer or expert, but maybe try re-introducing them slowly on leashes, starting at a distance and try and read their body language for agressiveness and fear.

PS: I see you are from Cape Town as well, from where do you get your raw supply? We,ve been on raw for our two labs for over a year now.


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## CorgiPaws (Mar 31, 2009)

I am NOT a professional trainer nor do I play one on TV... 

In my personal experience two dogs who have fought before are *likely* to fight again. Dogs don't just go up and bite another dog and walk away: what was the context of what happened last time? Did they actually fight? Scuffle? Was is over food? toys? attention? 

We have an aggressor in my pack and it's the only sterilized dog I own. I would *NOT* assume that neutering necessarily solved the issue.


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## woganvonderweidenstrasse (Nov 22, 2012)

Gavin said:


> Hi
> 
> I'm not any sort of trainer or expert, but maybe try re-introducing them slowly on leashes, starting at a distance and try and read their body language for agressiveness and fear.
> 
> PS: I see you are from Cape Town as well, from where do you get your raw supply? We,ve been on raw for our two labs for over a year now.


How nice to have another raw feeder from Cape Town on here! I get most raw food from Phillip Janse van Rensburg, his company is Raw Necessities. I mostly get my chicken from him, turkey I buy in Makro, (pick n pay has a special at the moment for R25/kg for turkey drumsticks.)Fish I buy at Fish king. There is also a butchery in Parow that I want to go check out. They sell all kinds of meat from duck and crocodile to venison and veal. Gastro foods is the butchery's name.

I'll try your suggestion above. My pup has a very dominant attitude and this is probably why older male's are always wanting to "put him in his place". Still I'm scared he'll get hurt. And my nervousness is likely to make things worse - maybe I should let someone else introduce them.

Your dogs are beautiful!


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## woganvonderweidenstrasse (Nov 22, 2012)

CorgiPaws said:


> I am NOT a professional trainer nor do I play one on TV...
> 
> In my personal experience two dogs who have fought before are *likely* to fight again. Dogs don't just go up and bite another dog and walk away: what was the context of what happened last time? Did they actually fight? Scuffle? Was is over food? toys? attention?
> 
> We have an aggressor in my pack and it's the only sterilized dog I own. I would *NOT* assume that neutering necessarily solved the issue.


The last time it happened the Swiss Shepherd (his name is Benson, 8 months at the time) was acting fearful the moment he saw my pup (who at the time was only 2 months old). He retreated, and my pup, wanting to make friends went up to him. He then snapped and bit my pup - we pulled them apart, and later that evening it happened again. No food or toys were involved and we tried not to give either one to much attention. As mentioned above my pup is very confident and bold and I suppose this may be perceived as disrespectful by older dogs, specially if the older dog is a bit fearful and feels cornered or something. I don't know, this is just my opinion, I may be wrong. The fact remains that this dog can cause serious damage, and fear aggression especially is very dangerous. I also think that if Benson's aggression is fear based then neutering will not have helped, but may actually worsen the problem. I don't know....am I being paranoid?


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## Gavin (Feb 14, 2012)

woganvonderweidenstrasse said:


> How nice to have another raw feeder from Cape Town on here! I get most raw food from Phillip Janse van Rensburg, his company is Raw Necessities. I mostly get my chicken from him, turkey I buy in Makro, (pick n pay has a special at the moment for R25/kg for turkey drumsticks.)Fish I buy at Fish king. There is also a butchery in Parow that I want to go check out. They sell all kinds of meat from duck and crocodile to venison and veal. Gastro foods is the butchery's name.
> 
> I'll try your suggestion above. My pup has a very dominant attitude and this is probably why older male's are always wanting to "put him in his place". Still I'm scared he'll get hurt. And my nervousness is likely to make things worse - maybe I should let someone else introduce them.
> 
> Your dogs are beautiful!



Thanks. We also get from Phillip. Haven't really looked into store raw food, bit concerned with additives, etc. But I think I might make a turn at Makro, haven't introduced turkey yet.


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## Maxy24 (Mar 5, 2011)

I would keep your pup on leash, do not let him approach the older dog. Just sounds like he is undersocialized and scared and felt cornered by your pup, especially since he didn't back off despite the dog acting fearful (darn puppies). If the older dog chooses to come up that's fine, try and make sure your pup does not jump up on him (a front clipping harness can help for better control in a situation like this). If the older dog is still quick to snap, even when he's the one approaching, then I'd just keep them apart the whole time.


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## woganvonderweidenstrasse (Nov 22, 2012)

Maxy24 said:


> I would keep your pup on leash, do not let him approach the older dog. Just sounds like he is undersocialized and scared and felt cornered by your pup, especially since he didn't back off despite the dog acting fearful (darn puppies). If the older dog chooses to come up that's fine, try and make sure your pup does not jump up on him (a front clipping harness can help for better control in a situation like this). If the older dog is still quick to snap, even when he's the one approaching, then I'd just keep them apart the whole time.


Yes I'm starting to think this is maybe the safer option - rather keep him on the leash than risk him getting hurt.


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## Felix (Oct 9, 2012)

Yeah, unfortunately, I would probably keep him on leash when you are around the other dog. My dog has a VERY dominant attitude as well and has gotten attacked many times over they years for no reason, just because the other dog feels like it should be boss, but doesn't have the confidence to show that. If I notice a dog that Felix is approaching seems to start cowering or shows any kind of fear (felix is NOT good at reading other dogs and he's almost 6, LOL) I call him off. He has an EXCELLENT recall so comes barreling toward me the minute he hears his name. He also has very good after burners, so if a dog starts going for him he dashes away with lightening speed. He retreats with his teeth barred, but doesn't attack back. 

He did have a break through with my friend's dog over Thanksgiving though, she isn't socialized with other dogs, but she would just bare her teeth and he would go around her or the other way. First time since I've had him that I have seen him not get in another dog's face, they did really well together and my buddy was surprised that his dog didn't attack mine. So maybe once your dog gets older, it may have better luck at reading other dogs and they will be able to exist comfortably.


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## MollyWoppy (Mar 19, 2010)

How about doing a lot of walking with them together? Also, when the other dog bites your pup, he is actually biting hard, or is he just warning the pup along with a lot of noise?


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## woganvonderweidenstrasse (Nov 22, 2012)

MollyWoppy said:


> How about doing a lot of walking with them together? Also, when the other dog bites your pup, he is actually biting hard, or is he just warning the pup along with a lot of noise?


No he's biting hard. We'll take the two for a walk and then see how it goes from there. I just feel it's a bit unfair that my pup should be at risk because other people don't take the time to socialize their dogs. It's frustrating. Anyway - thanks to everyone for the advice - I suppose if things get to out of hand I can always just take my pup and come home.


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## CorgiPaws (Mar 31, 2009)

It sounds to me that BOTH dogs are in need of proper socialization and training. 
The fearful dog could really benefit from some confidence-boosting positive training exercises and some basic beginner socialization classes held by a positive trainer. Fearful dogs are generally pretty sensitive dogs and I'd never ever employ anything but positive training methods on a dog with that temperament. It's important for a dog fearful of other dogs to have only positive experiences with them. Each and every negative experience is going to do nothing but magnify their fear, making it worse. Fear aggression is dangerous, but dogs don't just up and bite, there are warnings, signals, cues... even if they aren't blatant or obvious to you. 
Your dog could really benefit from some proper socialization to learn to better read and give communication ques. Do NOT allow your dog to violate the personal space of a dog that clearly doesn't tolerate it well. It is rude doggy etiquette. If he is not picking up on any communication markers that the other dog wants him to back off until the other dog resorts to snapping or biting, then you NEED to remove your dog from the situation. Proper socialization in a reputable, ethical doggy daycare can work absolute wonders with these types of dogs. If you want your dog to do well around other dogs, he HAS to learn to properly communicate with him, and if he's crowding other dogs until they snap, he doesn't get it yet. 
Both of these dogs are young, and with proper social experiences both could do just fine. These kinds of issues are the ones I'm probably MOST familur with because I run a business that is geared toward proper canine socialization. 

I would definitely leash your dog around the fearful dog so he isn't given the opportunity to invade his space. It might seem unfair to you that your dog needs to be leashed because their dog is fearful, but it's also unfair for their dog to be traumatized because your dog doesn't "get it" that he doesn't want him anywhere near. 
I know no one likes to hear their dog is equally at fault but with the information given.....


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## bernadettelevis (Feb 2, 2011)

what you can do to help your dog "get it", is to praise and reward your dog, every time he is with an other dog and responds correctly to his body language and so on. So if another dog tells your dog to back off, and your dog shows even the slightest movement away from the dog, praise and reward him!! Other than that, and what linsey said, please keep both dogs safe and don`t risk anything if you are not sure without a professional there. rather be safe than sorry.


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## CorgiPaws (Mar 31, 2009)

^^ good advice on working on getting the desired behavior. 

And so it's clear I'm not trying to point the "bad dog" finger at your puppy, he's young and it's pretty typical for them to not completely understand just what all the signs mean from other dogs. It takes a while for them to learn that avoidance leads to a growl leads to a snarl leads to a snap, and sometimes it takes a few snaps for them to learn that they better back off at the first growl. 
My dogs are really social with other dogs (I guess that's what happens when "mama" owns a business centered on socializing dogs) but I have one in my pack that would probably rip another in my pack to shreds if given the chance. Sometimes dogs just develop an issue with ONE other dog for one reason or another, and not all dogs will enjoy the company of other dogs.


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## woganvonderweidenstrasse (Nov 22, 2012)

CorgiPaws, as I read your thread I realized you are spot on. Logan also needs to learn to respect other dogs and respect their space. We did take him to daycare for about a month after the first incident with Benson. So hopefully his dominant beharviour towards other dogs will have improved? He's fine with the neighbors dogs and the dogs he meets in the park. I'll keep him on the leash until I'm certain he "gets it" and won't bother the other dog.

Thanks to everyone for the input - I'll let you know how it went. Tomorrow is the big day :fear:


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## CorgiPaws (Mar 31, 2009)

Best of luck! I'm so glad I didn't offend you because as I re read my post I was worried you might think I was blaming you so I had to come back and clarify. :smile:
Let us know how it goes! Here's to an incident-free holiday!


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## thegoodstuff (May 12, 2010)

CorgiPaws said:


> Fear aggression is dangerous, but dogs don't just up and bite, there are warnings, signals, cues... even if they aren't blatant or obvious to you.


Stanley Coren wrote a book called "How to Speak Dog". I found it to be very informative about how to "read" dogs and their intentions. It has saved my dog's butt, not to mention my own, more than once. I typed the caption because the scan res sucked.









The top face represents a wary aggressive signal. Moving down the left column represents increasingly aggressive signals motivated by dominance, while moving down the right column represents increasingly aggressive signals motivated by fear.


EDIT: This is just part of a whole section on face, body, ear, eye, tail, sex and scent talk.


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## woganvonderweidenstrasse (Nov 22, 2012)

Just an update: 
The holiday so far is a nightmare. Saturdy we introduced them and at first everything went fine so I took the leash off and started to relax - two hours later they grabbed each other. My baby now has a cut in his ear of about 1cm deep. I don't know if it will close. I cried my eyes out the whole day - he was so brave he actually fought back...he's only a puppy still - he should not be fighting, or going through this kind of trauma! I'm so angry I want to scream! I'm now keeping him on a leash 24/7 and when he's not on the leash I lock him away in a room.
thegoodstuff - thank you for the scan above - the big dog's ears were definitely pulled back - so I'm now more certain that it's fear aggression.


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## Liz (Sep 27, 2010)

Relax and try to enjoy your time with family.. The ear will heal. Keep your pup leashed and or crated as your are doing. This is not worth ruining the holiday and family time. The big dog doesn't like or know what to do with youngsters and your pup is bold and probably sassy. No big deal. You will go home soon and be able to focus on getting your pup socialized and trained and shown just how you want and now you know the other dog needs work and you should probably not trust he will get it. My dogs are never off leash with other dogs that they have not spent extensive time with as I won't risk injury or a potential fight but that is water under the bridge. Try to enjoy your day and the pup will be fine.  Merry Christmas


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