# High Protein?



## jordy_quint2 (Sep 26, 2010)

I've tried to look this up online, but I can't find the same reliable anwser, so I came to you guys. 

Rucker is a Miniature Dachshund, 10 pounds. Cali is a Beagle x Jack Russell Terrier, 20+ pounds. Vassar is a Beagle x Chihauhua, 20+ pounds. 

Rucker is all the way switched to ToTW now! I'm still switching off Cali and will probably have her all switched by sunday. I'm not sure with Vass since he's not with me, but we'll see how he's doing.

Anyway, they're currently on/switching to the Sierra Mountain (lamb) formula which is 25% in protein.

I've been considering rotating all of the flavors between bags (as long as they did fine with the other flavors), but two of the other formulas have 32% protein. They would be Wetlands (Duck) and High Prairie (Bison&Venison).

Question One: Is 32% protein too high for small dogs?

Question Two: Is 32% protein too high for non-performance dogs?

Question Three: When I switch to another flavor, do I have to transition slowly? Keep in mind they've never had bison/fowl/salmon/duck before. They've all done fine with Lamb.

-- They're active and get exercise every day. Minimal in the winter because the dogs can't stand the cold, especially little Rucker. Since it's been super hot (100+ all week. The heat index is even crazier) out we had to cut down a bit, but we go for longer walks in the evenings when it cools down. An hour walk/run altogether, maybe.

*I've heard a ton of different things... like, 32% protein is too high for non-active dogs. If I'm not working with him, or walking with them, they're sleeping... so I'm not really sure how much "active" really is. They sure aren't the dogs who want to keep me busy all the time. 

I think it'll all be fine. I just need assurance and some anwsers. haha


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## PUNKem733 (Jun 12, 2009)

I have a 15 year old, 20 pound dog. He is fed some of the highest protein foods on the market, Evo, Orijen, Horizon Legacy, and he is doing fine (I should say was, as I am transitioning hon to a raw diet.). To me older dogs need more protein not less. Also he is not active at all.


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## chowder (Sep 7, 2008)

I have an 18 pound, almost 15 year old dog and she has been eating EVO which is 42% protein. She gets mostly raw now, but ate EVO for a long time and it was the best she ever did on a kibble. We also raised a 1 pound chihuahua puppy on Evo and the vet said that was just fine for her with that protein level. They ate a lot less on a high protein food then on a lower protein one. 

I also have used Orijen and TOTW in the past and switched between them with no problems. I did mix the foods for awhile whenever I switched proteins so I could see if any of the new ones upset them. For example, Rocky did not do well with Bison which I found out by giving him a small amount to start with. Once they have had all the different proteins, then I don't think you need to transition them slowly anymore.


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## MollyWoppy (Mar 19, 2010)

I think your dogs will one day thank for it. The higher protein generally means that there is less carbs in the food, which is good news for dogs as they don't need carbs. (IMO and lots of other peoples opinions). Your vet may not like it (at least mine doesn't, he would prefer if my animals ate Science Diet), but my friends dog who has come of S.D for 12 years of his life is doing absolutely great on Orijen, 95% canned meat and some raw. I also think you are doing the right thing switching proteins around as well. In the wild dogs/cats will eat a variety of different proteins, so as long as your pups can handle it, I don't think you can go wrong. Good on you!


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## dmgmn (Apr 24, 2011)

In answer to your questions: No, No, and Yes, IMO anyway
When they are less active, they will just eat less. I also have 3 smaller dogs on TOTW and i switch up formulas as well. They do great and seem to do fine with the different formulas.

What are you switching from?? Before TOTW? Are you finding out they eat considerably less per day??

Sounds like you are doing just fine with the transitioning, and should be fine with the different formulas.
Once they have tried/and get used to the different protein sources, they should still have minumal transitioning just to be safe.


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## ShanniBella (Jul 1, 2011)

Ask ten different people and you will get ten different opinions  Not all dogs do well on a high protien diet and the high protein IMO is very controversial. I am on a pit bull/bully forum and alot of these dogs are working dogs that are very active in hunting, weight pull, schutzhund etc. A working dog will benefit from a higher protein because they are very active. Far more active than a house pet who goes for an occassional walk or a half hour walk per day. The highest I would go for a house pet and non working dog is no more than 28% but this is my opinion, though I know many that will agree with me. What it comes down to is whatever works for your dog is what you should stick with. Also, I wouldn't go to crazy feeding a wide variety of proteins. You should at least leave a couple out of the diet in case one of your dogs develops allergies some where down the road. I do believe in rotating different protein sources but I personally don't feed them all.


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## Eswmom (Jul 24, 2011)

Newbie here with a question, what is TOTW? I feed Orijen and we r considering a switch.


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## cast71 (Sep 16, 2010)

ShanniBella said:


> Ask ten different people and you will get ten different opinions  Not all dogs do well on a high protien diet and the high protein IMO is very controversial. I am on a pit bull/bully forum and alot of these dogs are working dogs that are very active in hunting, weight pull, schutzhund etc. A working dog will benefit from a higher protein because they are very active. Far more active than a house pet who goes for an occassional walk or a half hour walk per day. The highest I would go for a house pet and non working dog is no more than 28% but this is my opinion, though I know many that will agree with me. What it comes down to is whatever works for your dog is what you should stick with. Also, I wouldn't go to crazy feeding a wide variety of proteins. You should at least leave a couple out of the diet in case one of your dogs develops allergies some where down the road. I do believe in rotating different protein sources but I personally don't feed them all.


Basically a higher protein food has less carbs. Carbs are bad for dogs, that's my big concern. Higher protein and fat diets are not strictly for working dogs. You simply adjust the feeding amount to your dogs physical activity level. Majority of pet owners overfeed there dogs, because of the stupid feeding chart on the bag. Rotating different proteins, as well as different companies, is done to prevent dogs becoming allergic in the first place. The more variety the better.





Eswmom said:


> Newbie here with a question, what is TOTW? I feed Orijen and we r considering a switch.


Taste Of The Wild


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## Caty M (Aug 13, 2010)

ShanniBella said:


> The highest I would go for a house pet and non working dog is no more than 28% but this is my opinion, though I know many that will agree with me.


To be honest Shanni I couldn't disagree more. 28% is very low. When you choose a food lower in protein you are automatically choosing a food higher in carbohydrates. Carbs are not a natural part of a dogs diet so why would you feed a food that is 50% carbs (likely in a 28% protein food)? You are just increasing the chances of chronic diseases like diabetes.

An active dog doesn't need a diet any different than an inactive dog.. the only difference being that an active one will burn more calories and require a larger portion.

Higher protein/fat foods tend to be higher in calories and to be honest I think a lot of the loose stool problems are caused by overfeeding because most people don't realize this, and adjust accordingly.

The optimal diet would be one that a wolf eats- IE raw. My dogs receive no carbs, just meat, bone and organ (just protein and fats along with minerals/vitamins). The best kibble would be one that mirrors this the most closely. Another reason why high protein isn't bad- if you compare kibble and raw on a dry matter basis which is the only real way you can compare them, the raw diet would be around 60% protein, much higher than even EVO and Orijen (in the range of 45%ish).

*The 'best' diet is the one that mirrors a wild canine's diet the closest.*


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## PDXdogmom (Jun 30, 2010)

There is no best protein percentage. Each dog is different. Once you find the "sweet spot" for your dog and lifestyle, then that will be the best. For my dogs, anything less than 26% tends to not keep lean muscle. One of my dogs does not do well with protein once it gets beyond the 35% range. The great majority of dogs do consume some degree of carbs; and for them, I think finding the carbs with the most nutritional value is the key. I've find non-gluten carbs to be helpful.


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## Caty M (Aug 13, 2010)

PDXdogmom said:


> There is no best protein percentage. Each dog is different. Once you find the "sweet spot" for your dog and lifestyle, then that will be the best. For my dogs, anything less than 26% tends to not keep lean muscle. One of my dogs does not do well with protein once it gets beyond the 35% range. The great majority of dogs do consume some degree of carbs; and for them, I think finding the carbs with the most nutritional value is the key. I've find non-gluten carbs to be helpful.



If you look at a wild dog's diet, 99% of it is protein and fat. Yes they may eat berries, heck they taste good, but they also eat underwear, toilet paper, etc. They have no nutritional requirement for carbs or anything not found in meat, bone and organ. It makes no sense to me to feed a dog food that is 30,50, or even 60% carbs! It's completely unnatural!


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## Scarlett_O' (May 19, 2011)

Caty M said:


> If you look at a wild dog's diet, 99% of it is protein and fat. Yes they may eat berries, heck they taste good, but they also eat underwear, toilet paper, *AND ROCKS, Cell phones, hair from grooming, wallets, chocolate, *:togue1: etc. They have no nutritional requirement for carbs or anything not found in meat, bone and organ. It makes no sense to me to feed a dog food that is 30,50, or even 60% carbs! It's completely unnatural!


HEHE, I added a couple more!

And my new to learning about raw husband said something great the other day, "What you eat and what your body needs are 2 TOTALLY different things!"


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## ShanniBella (Jul 1, 2011)

Guess we all need to agree to disagree on topics like this because we all feel differently. Yes, I agree that feeding different protein sources is a must but also leaving a couple out of the diet like venison, buffalo, or duck is a safety precaution for possible allergies down the road. I have had my own dogs eat a variety of meats but not all agree with them. I also had a dog that had issues with chicken at 2 years old but did great on beef, venison, and lamb. All these high protein diets aren't for every dog and in my opinion I would never feed an inactive dog a diet that consists of 42% protein. But hey, whatever works for them....owner knows best. I have read many controversial articles about this topic and everyone has an opinion


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## cast71 (Sep 16, 2010)

I use to feel the same way as you and stay away from the 40% protein foods. Just from trial and error, it was easy to see that dogs do better with less carbs. Just look at there output;0) I also agree on the no carbs but unfortunately that's not how dryfood is made. Until than I will continue to feed low carb. On a side note, some of us use dryfood, so try not to insult anybody;0)


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## Caty M (Aug 13, 2010)

I don't have a problem with kibble and I'm not insulting it or anyone. But I do feel that the carb source in kibble is just a binder/emulsifier and not an essential ingredient in dog food and should be as minimal as possible.


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## PDXdogmom (Jun 30, 2010)

Caty M said:


> I don't have a problem with kibble and I'm not insulting it or anyone. But I do feel that the carb source in kibble is just a binder/emulsifier and not an essential ingredient in dog food and should be as minimal as possible.


I think it is shortsighted to view all carbs as being equal or as if there is no difference between any of them. The potato in a kibble like Orijen of TOTW is basically acting as a binder - not much nutrition to be had from a white potato. But a kibble or dehydrated food that has no white potato but might include quinoa, millet or brown rice is a different story. Try eating white potato at every meal for a month compared to eating a non-gluten complex carb and I think there would be some pretty clear results in blood sugars and overall health.


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## cast71 (Sep 16, 2010)

PDXdogmom said:


> Try eating white potato at every meal for a month compared to eating a non-gluten complex carb and I think there would be some pretty clear results in blood sugars and overall health.


Problem is your comparing humans to dogs. Dogs do not use carbs or not efficiently at least. They use protein and fat very efficiently. Again just look at output;0)


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## PDXdogmom (Jun 30, 2010)

Caty M said:


> If you look at a wild dog's diet, 99% of it is protein and fat. Yes they may eat berries, heck they taste good, but they also eat underwear, toilet paper, etc. They have no nutritional requirement for carbs or anything not found in meat, bone and organ. It makes no sense to me to feed a dog food that is 30,50, or even 60% carbs! *It's completely unnatural!*


As is any human eating a gram of processed sugar; but we all do it anyway. There is a long food continuum of what to eat that is healthy, natural or appropriate for any living thing. If most of the time we get into an advantageous range, then good. But there will never be universal agreement on what the ultimate perfect diet is - no matter what the species.


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## PDXdogmom (Jun 30, 2010)

cast71 said:


> Problem is your comparing humans to dogs. *Dogs do not use carbs* or not efficiently at least. They use protein and fat very efficiently. Again just look at output;0)


That is not true. I agree that protein and fat are the #1 and #2 needs of dogs, but once again, all carbs are not equal. Different carbs are utilized and digested very differently. Give me one dog eating a diet heavy in corn and I'll show you lots of output. Give me another dog eating millet or quinoa and I'll show you less output.


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## PDXdogmom (Jun 30, 2010)

cast71 said:


> *Problem is your comparing humans to dogs. * Dogs do not use carbs or not efficiently at least. They use protein and fat very efficiently. Again just look at output;0)


Actually I was not referencing humans. I was totally speaking about dogs. Dogs consuming all simple carbs like white potato and white rice will have spiking blood sugars compared to dogs that consume other types of carbs.


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## ShanniBella (Jul 1, 2011)

I do feed grain free with a 32% protein. Acana grasslands but I won't go any higher than 36%. I'm a big believer in grain free foods.


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## Caty M (Aug 13, 2010)

PDX, you're right.. but we are talking about dogs, not people. Dogs are carnivores and really have no business eating any type of starch, unfortunately that's what holds dog kibbles together.


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## Caty M (Aug 13, 2010)

Shanni, what is your aversion to high protein foods for inactive dogs? They will not gain weight if you simply feed less.


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## cast71 (Sep 16, 2010)

PDXdogmom said:


> Give me one dog eating a diet heavy in corn and I'll show you lots of output. Give me another dog eating millet or quinoa and I'll show you less output.



A dog eating mostly meat will show even less output. carbs are also harder on a carnivores system, which taxes there organs. It also lowers there immune system. Carbs also help diseases out. Cause diabetes again through organ failure, they feed cancer cells they feed fungus, and many more diseases. No carb is best, low carb is second best;0)


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## Porphyria (Jul 13, 2011)

cast71 said:


> I use to feel the same way as you and stay away from the 40% protein foods. Just from trial and error, it was easy to see that dogs do better with less carbs. Just look at there output;0) I also agree on the no carbs but unfortunately that's not how dryfood is made. Until than I will continue to feed low carb. On a side note, some of us use dryfood, so try not to insult anybody;0)


My dog has actually had less, and better quality (eww!), output since I switched him from Orijen and Acana to a grain-inclusive food with lower protein and higher carbs. Individual dogs handle foods differently, and rich, high protein foods aren't always best for every dog; I learned that from personal experience.

I am also wary of high protein foods because, in my dog, there was a correlation between high protein kibble and high ALT (liver enzyme levels), and I've spoken to a few other people who have noticed the same thing in their dogs. I'm sure this doesn't happen to every dog on a high protein kibble, but I do believe there is a link for some dogs. I suspect it has something to do with the very high levels of protein in conjunction with the complete lack of moisture in kibble. I'd like to see more research and an actual scientific study on it, but I think there are a lot of areas in canine nutrition where we'd all like to see scientific studies!

Many people have had great success with high protein foods, but some, myself included, have not. It all depends on the dog; if a dog does really well on a high protein kibble, then great. But if not, it's counterproductive to feed a dog a food that does not agree with him simply because it is supposed to be the best. 

I'm glad you've found a food that worked for you; I've gone through a lot of trial and error myself, and I know what a relief it is to finally find a food that works!


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## cast71 (Sep 16, 2010)

Is it possible that you were feeding too much orijen, which in return was giving high output and higher liver levels? No disrespect, I found that most people over feed the higher protein foods. People can't get use to the idea of feeding such a small amount, and think there starving there pet. If it makes people feel better not reducing the amount of food and feeding lower protein foods fine. I feel that it's much healthier feeding much less of a food that contains much less of things they don't need. If a company put out a food that came from 100% human grade animal products and was affordable, I'd be all over it;0) if your worried about lack of moisture in dry food, soak it in water. It's not like it's cleaning your dogs teeth through the crunching cleaning action as advertised ahahaha. your right on higher protein foods not being right for every body. If it's not used right, it can have negative effects.


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## PUNKem733 (Jun 12, 2009)

Dogs have no need for carbs complex or otherwise. Anyone saying anything else simply is untrue.


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## Porphyria (Jul 13, 2011)

cast71 said:


> Is it possible that you were feeding too much orijen, which in return was giving high output and higher liver levels? No disrespect, I found that most people over feed the higher protein foods. People can't get use to the idea of feeding such a small amount, and think there starving there pet. If it makes people feel better not reducing the amount of food and feeding lower protein foods fine. I feel that it's much healthier feeding much less of a food that contains much less of things they don't need. If a company put out a food that came from 100% human grade animal products and was affordable, I'd be all over it;0) if your worried about lack of moisture in dry food, soak it in water. It's not like it's cleaning your dogs teeth through the crunching cleaning action as advertised ahahaha. your right on higher protein foods not being right for every body. If it's not used right, it can have negative effects.


No, I know about the need to reduce the feeding amount for more nutrient-dense foods. My 35 lb. dog only eats about a cup a day of his current food. I don't remember how much I was feeding when he was on Orijen and Acana, but I do remember it was very little, well below the feeding guidelines suggestion. He maintained a healthy weight; once he stopped growing (he was a puppy when I started him on Orijen) he never gained or lost weight, but he still had bad gas and frequent, larger stools. Ocassionally they were loose, but they were mostly normal consistency so I didn't think the food was an issue; it was the liver thing that made me change, and the improvement to digestion is just something I have noticed since switching. 

I have been adding water and ocassionally canned food to his kibble for added moisture, but I am still nervous to go back to a higher protein food. I know it affected his liver, and the liver is something I definitely do not want to mess with. I don't want to make it work harder than it needs to just so I can say I feed Orijen. Logically a high protein diet would seem to be best for all dogs, but I know firsthand that that is not the case.


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## PDXdogmom (Jun 30, 2010)

cast71 said:


> Is it possible that you were feeding too much orijen, which in return was giving high output and higher liver levels? No disrespect, I found that most people over feed the higher protein foods. People can't get use to the idea of feeding such a small amount, and think there starving there pet. If it makes people feel better not reducing the amount of food and feeding lower protein foods fine. I feel that it's much healthier feeding much less of a food that contains much less of things they don't need. If a company put out a food that came from 100% human grade animal products and was affordable, I'd be all over it;0) if your worried about lack of moisture in dry food, soak it in water. It's not like it's cleaning your dogs teeth through the crunching cleaning action as advertised ahahaha. your right on higher protein foods not being right for every body. If it's not used right, it can have negative effects.


I wouldn't make the assumption that everyone feeding Orijen (or other high protein foods) who doesn't have good results is due to feeding too much. Yes, it often happens that when people first transition from a grain-inclusive lower protein food to a grain-free higher protein food, they feed too much at first. But "Porphyria" in post #25 has obviously had a lot of experience feeding a variety of kibble formulas. I would assume that she does indeed know how to judge food amounts and knows her dogs well.

And I have had similar experiences as Porphyria. One of my current dogs has done very well on high protein grain free formulas; while the other does less well. So, I feed her differently. And after feeding a variety of dogs over a period of decades, I'm well familiar with the nuances of adjusting feeding amounts. To think that every single dog can thrive being fed exactly the same way is just not based in reality.


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## monkeys23 (Dec 8, 2010)

1. No they'll be fine.

2. No, should do fine.

3. I alway just hard switched between flavors when I fed kibble (Evo, then Acana grain free), but mine were never particularly sensitive unless there was grain involved.


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## cast71 (Sep 16, 2010)

This is a perfect example. Someone that has alot of experience could make the mistake of overfeeding. Porphyria stated she fed around 1 cup a day for her 35lb. dog. It is possible that was too much. Just because he maintained a healthy body weight, does not mean he wasn't being overfed. The goal is to give the least amount, to maintain a healthy body weight. It's not very hard to accomplish. Just keep making small reductions until your dog starts losing weight. Than go back a step until your dog maintains weight. This is to be done for all life stages. It has nothing to do from going from grain inclusive to grain free. It has to do with protein, fat and carb levels. I'll give you two examples. My dog weighs 85 lbs. and my sisters dog weighs 70 lbs. If I was to feed TOTW, my dog would get 3.5 cups and my sisters would get 2.5 cups aday. If feeding orijen, my dog gets 2.25 cups and my sisters gets 1.5 cups. That's a huge difference and there both grain free. So again it was possible that Porphyria was overfeeding, which was causing high liver levels. She fed around 1 cup for a 35 lb dog and we are feeding 1.5 for a 70 lb. lab. The problem is people panic once a vet showes blood test results. I don't blame them, because that's how I get in a vets office as well. I'm glad I haven't had to goto a vet in 3.5 years and counting ;0)


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## PDXdogmom (Jun 30, 2010)

cast71 said:


> This is a perfect example. Someone that has alot of experience could make the mistake of overfeeding. Porphyria stated she fed around 1 cup a day for her 35lb. dog. It is possible that was too much. Just because he maintained a healthy body weight, does not mean he wasn't being overfed. The goal is to give the least amount, to maintain a healthy body weight. It's not very hard to accomplish. Just keep making small reductions until your dog starts losing weight. Than go back a step until your dog maintains weight. This is to be done for all life stages. It has nothing to do from going from grain inclusive to grain free. It has to do with protein, fat and carb levels. I'll give you two examples. My dog weighs 85 lbs. and my sisters dog weighs 70 lbs. *If I was to feed TOTW, my dog would get 3.5 cups and my sisters would get 2.5 cups aday. If feeding orijen, my dog gets 2.25 cups and my sisters gets 1.5 cups. That's a huge difference and there both grain free.* So again it was possible that Porphyria was overfeeding, which was causing high liver levels. She fed around 1 cup for a 35 lb dog and we are feeding 1.5 for a 70 lb. lab. The problem is people panic once a vet showes blood test results. I don't blame them, because that's how I get in a vets office as well. I'm glad I haven't had to goto a vet in 3.5 years and counting ;0)


What I bolded in your post is pretty much basic "feeding guidelines 101" that Porphyria, I and most other seasoned dog owners already know. Of course you adjust the quantity fed when transitioning to a new food. Feed more if the new food is less calorically dense - feed less if the new food is more calorically dense. 

Although your comments seem well-intentioned in this thread, you should not attribute all differences of opinion to someone being uninformed or in a panic.


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## cast71 (Sep 16, 2010)

Personally I do not use calorie content to adjust feedings. I have recommended this in the past, just because it is a easy to adjust feeding. I go by protein, fat and carbs. For example if I have two foods with the same calorie content, but different protein fat and carb levels, I will feed accordingly. I will feed less of the food with the lower carb value. The reason is you need less to give the same nutrition of the higher carb food. Carbs have no nutritional value for dogs. They aren't even able to digest them properly, because there digestive track is short. It's hard on there system, lowering immune system. There digestive track is designed to process food fast, instead of letting it sit there fermenting. You seem like you have done alot of research on carbs. What I suggest is you research the effects of carbs and different diseases. I high carb diet in humans is directly linked to lots of disease and viruses. There are plenty of low carb diets that are based on low amounts of good carbs. A few are low estrogen, cave man and raw diets. They recommen low carbs and no grains or starches. If this is true for omnivores, than why would anyone feed high carb diets to carnivores???


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## Porphyria (Jul 13, 2011)

I said I feed one cup a day of his current food (half of the amount suggested in the feeding guidelines). I don't remember how much I fed when he was on Orijen and Acana. It wasn't much on either, but he was still a growing puppy while he was on Orijen (he had reached his adult height/weight by the time he was on Acana), so it also depended on how old he was at the time. Like I said I don't remember exactly how much he was getting at the time, but I feel confident that I was not overfeeding while he was on either food. I transitioned him from Innova puppy formula to Orijen puppy and I know I was feeding much less of the Orijen than the Innova. 

He had his blood tested several times and ALT was consistently high every single time it was tested while he was on a high protein food. Even the vet was concerned, and ran a bile acid test to rule out liver disease. Thankfully the results of the bile acid test were normal. Once I switched to a lower protein food, the ALT went down to normal. It could be a coincidence, but I find it unlikely, especially considering the fact that I have spoken to another person who owns the same breed and had a similar experience (though her problems were on Wellness Core, not Orijen or Acana). Perhaps it also has something to do with the breed's metabolism and/or low body fat putting more strain on the liver with a high protein kibble. I don't know exactly what factors could be at play, but I know that his tests have been normal since he went off the high protein kibble, so I will stick with moderate protein foods from now on.


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