# Vegetables



## lozzibear (Sep 13, 2010)

I don't feed Jake vegetables (or fruit), and I don't believe he needs them. He does get green tripe, I don't think he necessarily needs it, but he loves the stuff so I don't see the harm. 

I was reading on another forum though, and there is a member who feeds raw but gives, what seems to be, a lot of fruit and vegetables (she gives them daily... along with live yoghurt, almost as often). She says that dogs need fruit and vegetables, because they contain 'vital neutraceuticals and phytonutrients'... I was just wondering what you guys think of that? From reading the threads on here, it seems to me, that that the majority on here do not feed fruit and veg (correct me if I am wrong :biggrin. 

She has also said in the past, that as well as fruit and veg, she gives many supplements. She said that for her, this is vital because they are working dogs. 

I don't believe they need vegetables or fruit, and so I don't believe they hold nutritional value for a dog, that meat, bones and offal don't have... But, reading what she says, I was wondering if there is anything behind what she is say?


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## CorgiPaws (Mar 31, 2009)

Dogs are designed nose to tail to eat, digest, and utilize meat, bones, and organs to the fullest capacity. I do believe that dogs CAN pull nutrients from cooked fruits and veggies, but nothing that they can't or won't get even more efficiently and naturally from a diet of raw animal parts. 
As for supplements, they simply are not necessary if you feed a variety of proteins, and include organs in the diet. Obviously a diet of nothing but raw hamburger meat is not going to balance out, but the inclusion of a moderate amount of bone content as well as organs, primarily liver, and mostly meat is as perfectly well rounded as any carnivore's diet ought to be. The only time it is necessary to supplement is if the dog has a particular ailment or strong predisposition to an ailment, such as glucosamine for joint issues. 
I think it's pretty typical for raw feeders to supplement with a fish oil if their dogs are not eating raw or canned fish regularly, or they are not feeding all grass-fed meat to be certain the omegas are present. While a raw meaty bones diet is in fact ideal for a carnivore, we lose some of those omegas present naturally in meat because of the diet fed to farm raised meat animals, hence the need for omega supplementation. 
Since my dogs eat fish every day, I do not supplement.


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## eternalstudent (Jul 22, 2010)

lozzibear said:


> I don't feed Jake vegetables (or fruit), and I don't believe he needs them. He does get green tripe, I don't think he necessarily needs it, but he loves the stuff so I don't see the harm.
> 
> I was reading on another forum though, and there is a member who feeds raw but gives, what seems to be, a lot of fruit and vegetables (she gives them daily... along with live yoghurt, almost as often). She says that dogs need fruit and vegetables, because they contain 'vital neutraceuticals and phytonutrients'... I was just wondering what you guys think of that? From reading the threads on here, it seems to me, that that the majority on here do not feed fruit and veg (correct me if I am wrong :biggrin.
> 
> ...


You are quite right the majority on here do not feed fruit or veg. We understand that dogs are carnivores and that although they may like the taste and texture of non meat products they do not need them. 

I am still waiting patiently to find another PMR feeder, as all those I have met still think dogs have need of other item!!!! :-(

As for supplementation, if you can feed wild fish (not the Scottish farmed salmon) or red meat you would have no need to add omega oils. Personally I feed a lot of fish, and as much beef as i can so I don't supplement.


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## Scarlett_O' (May 19, 2011)

PuppyPaws said:


> Dogs are designed nose to tail to eat, digest, and utilize meat, bones, and organs to the fullest capacity. I do believe that dogs CAN pull nutrients from cooked fruits and veggies, but nothing that they can't or won't get even more efficiently and naturally from a diet of raw animal parts.
> As for supplements, they simply are not necessary if you feed a variety of proteins, and include organs in the diet. Obviously a diet of nothing but raw hamburger meat is not going to balance out, but the inclusion of a moderate amount of bone content as well as organs, primarily liver, and mostly meat is as perfectly well rounded as any carnivore's diet ought to be. The only time it is necessary to supplement is if the dog has a particular ailment or strong predisposition to an ailment, such as glucosamine for joint issues.
> I think it's pretty typical for raw feeders to supplement with a fish oil if their dogs are not eating raw or canned fish regularly, or they are not feeding all grass-fed meat to be certain the omegas are present. While a raw meaty bones diet is in fact ideal for a carnivore, we lose some of those omegas present naturally in meat because of the diet fed to farm raised meat animals, hence the need for omega supplementation.
> Since my dogs eat fish every day, I do not supplement.


Linsey said it all better then I could ever hope too....so I will just quote her!LOL

But yes, on other forums Ive come across the majority of people who feed veggies and who will even state that they have to be cooked and mashed/Puréed for the dog(s) to get anything out of them....so I dont see how that is even close to species appropriate!!! (I also found one chick who feeds her dog "one meal a week of kibble so that they dont ever have a hard time of going back on it if/when she might run into something in her life that would cause her to have to go back.".....I dont get that AT ALL!!!!)


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## maplewood (Apr 14, 2011)

I don't feel dogs need veggies, however I don't think they are bad for all dogs. A few of my guy's seem to enjoy them. However, my big guy had not had a hotspot in sometime when I gave him some veggies the next day we had another hotspot, coincidence? Once a week I do take all the left over veggies from the week put them in the blender add some yogurt and add it to the girls food. My Polly insists that i share my apple with her and Rosie enjoys carrots and apples.


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## lozzibear (Sep 13, 2010)

PuppyPaws said:


> Dogs are designed nose to tail to eat, digest, and utilize meat, bones, and organs to the fullest capacity. I do believe that dogs CAN pull nutrients from cooked fruits and veggies, but nothing that they can't or won't get even more efficiently and naturally from a diet of raw animal parts.
> As for supplements, they simply are not necessary if you feed a variety of proteins, and include organs in the diet. Obviously a diet of nothing but raw hamburger meat is not going to balance out, but the inclusion of a moderate amount of bone content as well as organs, primarily liver, and mostly meat is as perfectly well rounded as any carnivore's diet ought to be. The only time it is necessary to supplement is if the dog has a particular ailment or strong predisposition to an ailment, such as glucosamine for joint issues.
> I think it's pretty typical for raw feeders to supplement with a fish oil if their dogs are not eating raw or canned fish regularly, or they are not feeding all grass-fed meat to be certain the omegas are present. While a raw meaty bones diet is in fact ideal for a carnivore, we lose some of those omegas present naturally in meat because of the diet fed to farm raised meat animals, hence the need for omega supplementation.
> Since my dogs eat fish every day, I do not supplement.


Yeah, I completely agree. I just never know how to respond, when she lists what each vegetable provides a dog… The simple fact you need to cook, or blend them up, says to me that they don’t need them. 



eternalstudent said:


> You are quite right the majority on here do not feed fruit or veg. We understand that dogs are carnivores and that although they may like the taste and texture of non meat products they do not need them.
> 
> I am still waiting patiently to find another PMR feeder, as all those I have met still think dogs have need of other item!!!! :-(
> 
> As for supplementation, if you can feed wild fish (not the Scottish farmed salmon) or red meat you would have no need to add omega oils. Personally I feed a lot of fish, and as much beef as i can so I don't supplement.


I still have to meet another raw feeder too… a lot of people around here, that I meet with Jake, know I feed raw but they just look at me like I’m an alien and change the conversation lol! Even when I went to my local butchers to get food for Jake, they said to be careful with bones etc, and that they have dogs and never give it! Imagine how cheap they could feed their dogs for! :biggrin:

I always get Jake fresh fish from Asda (either sardines or mackerel… occasionally something special like Sea bass!), when it is reduced lol, and just freeze it. 



Scarlett_O' said:


> Linsey said it all better then I could ever hope too....so I will just quote her!LOL
> 
> But yes, on other forums Ive come across the majority of people who feed veggies and who will even state that they have to be cooked and mashed/Puréed for the dog(s) to get anything out of them....so I dont see how that is even close to species appropriate!!! (I also found one chick who feeds her dog "one meal a week of kibble so that they dont ever have a hard time of going back on it if/when she might run into something in her life that would cause her to have to go back.".....I dont get that AT ALL!!!!)


I come across that too, they always either cook or blend them! I just find it difficult to know how to answer, when she puts up a list of veg and what they contain for dogs… I just don’t know how to respond… She gets all scientific, and I just can’t do that 



maplewood said:


> I don't feel dogs need veggies, however I don't think they are bad for all dogs. A few of my guy's seem to enjoy them. However, my big guy had not had a hotspot in sometime when I gave him some veggies the next day we had another hotspot, coincidence? Once a week I do take all the left over veggies from the week put them in the blender add some yogurt and add it to the girls food. My Polly insists that i share my apple with her and Rosie enjoys carrots and apples.


I’ve heard of some dogs who enjoy them, but I don’t think they actually need them… Jake absolutely hates veg, but for some people I guess it is like why I feed tripe. I don’t think Jake needs it, but he enjoys it and it causes no harm… so, I feed it. It just got me wondering when she was talking about neutraceuticals and phytonutrients, and getting all scientific, and I have no idea how to respond… I can’t get all scientific like that… So, I just wondered if anyone on here knew if what she was saying, was true. Even though, I don’t believe it is.


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## cprcheetah (Jul 14, 2010)

Why feed dogs veggies when they come out the same way they went in? Dogs don't have the enzymes to digest fruits and veggies....I used to give Carrots to Zoey all the time and she pooped them out pretty much the same way they went in. It baffles me as to why you would want to feed your dog stuff you have to puree in order for them to digest it. 

By definition a Nutraceutical is this: A food containing health-giving additives and having medicinal benefit......hmmmm since Zoey is completely off of 6 of her 7 long term medications eating a diet composing of nothing less than 80% meat, 10% bone, 5% liver & 5% kidneys....I'm gonna have to say that the person on that forum is feeding you a line of hokey. A Prey Model Raw Diet if fed properly contains ALL the nutrients a dog needs, save maybe an Omega supplement. There is absolutely NO need to feed veggies, other than the fact you like cleaning it up in the poop and yard.....  Here is an excellent article on the subject: Dogs Are Carnivores If dogs were meant to eat plants/veggies/fruits they would have teeth of an omnivore not teeth of a carnivore


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## Dude and Bucks Mamma (May 14, 2011)

Buck likes to yank out the grass in our backyard and, as a result, a lot of it goes down his throat... He doesn't go around grazing, just destructively yanking up the grass. He gets a mouthful, tosses it up in the air and runs around in it until it all settles. Then he starts over. 

Any ideas on how to fix this little behavior malfunction???

Anyhow! Because quite a bit makes its way into his belly, we come across quite a few "grass logs" when picking up poop. That should be ale to confirm it for anyone that dogs are carnivores. I mean, if dogs could digest grass, why do I find whole turds made up entirely of intact blades of grass?

I do feed our boys fruits and veggies once in a while, but not as a part of their meal. They enjoy the flavor or something about them. I eat cookies, cake, and ice cream, but it isn't beneficial to me. In moderation, dogs can eat fruits and veggies without having to worry about extra calories. Buck likes strawberries so once in a while, when we are eating strawberries in the backyard I'll toss him one. Not a big deal. Making it part of their meal? Why? They aren't designed to eat them. They have no need for them... 

I guess my point is that, in mu household, fruits and veggies (for the dogs) are treated like sweets (for us). A small bit once in a while is a nice treat, but one could never make it a properly nutritious meal.


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## Cliffdog (Dec 30, 2010)

I don't think supplements are bad for working dogs, I plan to use K9 Super Fuel in my next conditioning program to help with endurance and recovery times. I don't think most raw-fed dogs need it, though... Conditioning is very hard on the body, and I don't think normal "wear-and-tear" would require supplementation. Beyond Omega 3s, as has been mentioned, if your dog doesn't get much fish and red meat.


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## Scarlett_O' (May 19, 2011)

Dude and Bucks Mamma said:


> Buck likes to yank out the grass in our backyard and, as a result, a lot of it goes down his throat... He doesn't go around grazing, just destructively yanking up the grass. He gets a mouthful, tosses it up in the air and runs around in it until it all settles. Then he starts over.
> 
> Any ideas on how to fix this little behavior malfunction???
> 
> ...


Same here....and the Puppy Boys are treated the same as my "Boy"(Jesse:lol.....they are NOT allowed to just have "sweets" when ever they want them...cause other wise they would all 4 be having dental appointments ALL THE TIME!!LOL :lol:


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

i think fruits and veggies have natural sugar which, over time, can harm a dog's teeth and gums....and also change the acidity in their stomachs.....


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## newlndnfire (Aug 19, 2011)

I agree with everyone else. Dogs are carnivores and that is that. Their bodies are not designed for any kind of plant digestion, they are designed to digest meat, organ and bone. People always bring up the fact that coyotes eat berries in the wild! But we eat ice cream right? We eat is because it tastes good! It doesn't mean its good for us. I think that the people who believe dogs are omnivores and won't accept anything else need to learn to have an open mind and to educate themselves. They need to learn to look up things and make sure they're actually right in their arguments! Haha.


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## angelbears (Jun 9, 2011)

Unfortunately, not much legitimate research is out there on canine nutrition, throwing out any research from dog food companies or those with a vested interest. So, the only thing I can rely on is common sense. Dogs are carnivores. That is what I have based my reasoning for feeding mainly raw meat. However, I don't think some veggies or even sweets are a terrible thing. I have one dog with terrible skin issues so it's all raw, all the time(except when we get caught giving something to one of the others and don't have any raw available). The other 2 dogs seem to be extremely healthy. So, if they accidentally get something off our plate, oh well. 

Until someone can legitimately prove to me that a dog needs veggies I'm going to stick to a mainly raw diet but I'm not going to sweat it, if I give a piece of carrot or whatever to my girls.


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## oddjob (Aug 24, 2011)

Every vitamin, mineral, enzyme, amino acid, etc. that a dog needs can be found in just 3 things: meat, liver/kidney, bones; is that right?


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## RawFedDogs (Jun 16, 2008)

Yes, absolutely correct. :smile:


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## eternalstudent (Jul 22, 2010)

lozzibear said:


> I always get Jake fresh fish from Asda (either sardines or mackerel… occasionally something special like Sea bass!), when it is reduced lol, and just freeze it.
> 
> I come across that too, they always either cook or blend them! I just find it difficult to know how to answer, when she puts up a list of veg and what they contain for dogs… I just don’t know how to respond… She gets all scientific, and I just can’t do that
> 
> ...


Asda and tesco on a good day can be great for cheap fish, although I have never been able to live down feeding my pup salmon fillets, while we ate microwave veg!!!!!!

Personally I think she is not being scientific, she uses words like neutraceutical and phytonutrients to hide behind and bamboozle people with pseudo-science. If you want simple science then simply quote
Dog biologically classified under
Order = Carnivora 

Either the original zoologists got it wrong and they do not want to change it or alternatively they got it right and some people believe the hype and adverts put out in recent years!!

However, there is sometimes no point arguing with some people as they have such a firm belief that they will not budge :-(


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## lozzibear (Sep 13, 2010)

I was going to multi-quote but I have just been discussing this with her, and she said that dogs don't need enzymes to break down vegetables, coz 'where enzymes fail bacteria fill in the gap' :twitch:

I definitely think she does get all scientific to make it harder for people to disagree coz not many people can talk back using science. She just has an answer for everything


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## lauriep (Sep 13, 2011)

I am not sure if there are other Dalmatian owners on this list, but because of their unique problem of producing/overproducing uric acid and (in males) potentially blocking with sludge/urate stones/crystals, organs and meats high in purines are highly discouraged. Most Dal raw feeders feed mostly poultry with some beef/lamb/pork and fish. I think that many of them, including myself, add a veggie/fruit mixture a few times a week to obtain the vitamins and minerals we lose by not feeding the organ meets. All of my dogs enjoy their vegetable meals, and it certainly doesn't harm them. Just curious if there are other Dal owners here, and if the general population is aware of this problem that exists only in Dalmatians.


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

angelbears said:


> Unfortunately, not much legitimate research is out there on canine nutrition, throwing out any research from dog food companies or those with a vested interest. So, the only thing I can rely on is common sense. Dogs are carnivores. That is what I have based my reasoning for feeding mainly raw meat. However, I don't think some veggies or even sweets are a terrible thing. I have one dog with terrible skin issues so it's all raw, all the time(except when we get caught giving something to one of the others and don't have any raw available). The other 2 dogs seem to be extremely healthy. So, if they accidentally get something off our plate, oh well.
> 
> Until someone can legitimately prove to me that a dog needs veggies I'm going to stick to a mainly raw diet but I'm not going to sweat it, if I give a piece of carrot or whatever to my girls.


there is plenty of research on canine physiology and anatomy and from that, it can be postulated what will maintain their balance nutritionally.

sugar rots teeth and gums. they don't brush their teeth as we do and their tooth structure is not made to eat fruit. 

yoghurt is the worst culprit. first it is dairy and has loads of sugar....secondly, the bacteria in yoghurt will change the pH in a dog's digestive system....plus it's useless to give a dog yoghurt. the acids in a dog's system will destroy anything beneficial...

yoghurt is for humans, as are veggies and fruits.....kix are for kids.


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

lozzibear said:


> I was going to multi-quote but I have just been discussing this with her, and she said that dogs don't need enzymes to break down vegetables, coz 'where enzymes fail bacteria fill in the gap' :twitch:
> 
> I definitely think she does get all scientific to make it harder for people to disagree coz not many people can talk back using science. She just has an answer for everything


but her science is wrong LOL.


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## chowder (Sep 7, 2008)

If you force open Rocky's mouth and try really hard you might be able to FORCE a carrot down his throat!!

Now on the other hand, he does have a horrible sweet tooth (every chow I've ever owned had one) and will beg unrelentlessly for your bowl of cereal or ice cream! And I let him have a taste of sweet n sour chicken last night and he thought he died and went to heaven! So dogs definitely don't just eat what they need to survive, but what is yummy!


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## lozzibear (Sep 13, 2010)

Geez! Now she is saying that we know dogs are omnivores due to them eating poo! :suspicious:


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## Imgliniel (Sep 1, 2011)

lozzibear I demand a link to this idiocy so I may go and laugh at it myself!

Everyone else already said what I would have so that is all


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## CorgiPaws (Mar 31, 2009)

lozzibear said:


> Geez! Now she is saying that we know dogs are omnivores due to them eating poo! :suspicious:


Yup. POOP is a vital part of any omnivore diet!

-facepalm-

Where do these people come from?! lol


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