# Another vet on board for raw feeding!



## CavePaws (Jan 25, 2011)

Well, my sister took her cats to the vet the other day and told the vet about how I put my dogs on a raw diet. She was talking about how awesome their coats and breath are and the vet said that was awesome and that raw diets are really great for dogs and cats.

She did tell my sister that switching cats can be harder and it does take more time than kibble and wet food...She also told my sister that, since she free feeds the cats, it would probably be doubly as hard to switch them. ]: Well, darn. I was all excited that the vet commended raw diets but then went and told her some major cons. :[ It doesn't take _that _long...D: Especially since half the work is done for her since I've got hookups for suppliers and she could use some of our freezer space if she wanted for bulk orders. :[

But, anyway, I think if I have to argue about food with the vet I take my dogs to it's probably going to be a no go. I just don't feel like a lot of vets know enough about nutrition for me to truly trust their opinion on some matters. :/


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## RawFedDogs (Jun 16, 2008)

Not only does it bother me that they have such a limited amount of knowledge on nutrition, 99%+ of them have never fed raw so they don't know how to help someone get started, nor do they know a lot of the benefits or how to tweak the diet.


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## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

Having no experience with cats, I don't know if I can comment intelligently, but it does seem that vet should be asked if she/he ever tried switching a cat or has some knowledge of other people who have, so the pronouncement that's it's difficult would be based on some actual experience.


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## Northwoods10 (Nov 22, 2010)

There are a few people on this board who have switched their cats to raw...so she could always come here for some advice & tips. Thats great her vet is supportive of the diet itself though!

And I completely agree with your last paragraph. I certainly don't claim to know it all about their nutrition but I know for a fact I know more about raw than our vet does, and thats sad.

ETA: I have "heard" that it is harder to switch cats over too....but I've never attempted it and I don't know how true that statement is. It could just be another myth.


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## CavePaws (Jan 25, 2011)

Ya, that's what I was thinking xelil...I wonder if she feeds her animals a raw diet or science diet. Haaaa. Well my sister and I discussed it and were laughing about how vets are vested in Hills just like our government is vested in Oil - When these huge companies are giving the government and veterinarians so much funding it is no wonder they have no interest in cleaner sources of energy and raw diets. Lol.

I know, RFD, it is like, hello there is such thing as continued education. ]:< I mean, it really does bother me that a lot of veterinarians can look into the mouth of our carnivorous companions day in and out and STILL recommend crappy diets that don't reflect their anatomy at all. :/ I mean, after seeing all this periodontal disease wouldn't you think they'd try to at least find a common denominator? Oh, but of course the common denominator in their opinion is that these owners aren't brushing their dogs teeth...I think it can be simplified just a little bit more, you know, if we get down to the brass tacks of it all, it lies in the food the animal is eating. :|

Kelley, it is so sad. I mean there they are proclaiming they went to school for eight years and they know it all about animal health but they lack knowledge in nutrition. Nutrition is the foundation of health! This is why I am so skeptical about them...especially if I were to take my dog to the vet and they told me that my dog had coccidia from raw food...I'd blow a gasket. :| What's next, my dog got bordetella and ovarian cancer because she ate a rack of ribs last night? Give me a break.

edit: I guess ovarian cancer can only come when they haven't been spayed...I have one dog in the house who hasn't been spayed yet...I probably won't have her spayed until she is five or six. 
I just read this article while sipping my coffee a second ago. Check it out!
http://www.thedogplace.org/Veterinary/Spay-Neuter-1101_Coats.asp


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## SerenityFL (Sep 28, 2010)

I switched my cats to raw, all 7 of 'em. It depends on the cat. A few took to it right away like they were just waiting for me to pull my head out and get with the program.

A few said, "eh, ya know, I'm not so sure about this...." but went over in a day or two.

And one was staunchly against it. "NO! I'm NOT eating that crap!" And because you can't hold out on a cat like you do a dog, I had to give in. BUT, what she didn't know is that I snuck pieces of raw in to her stupid canned food. And she ate it, ha ha! She held out for a few days but I kept sneaking in the raw, and she eventually got the picture. Now she horfs her raw food down.

Finally, the last cat, my oldest one, I had to work with because she wanted to eat raw, but couldn't. I had to get a meat grinder, grind it all down for her and teach her how to bite, not scoop her food. This required a lot of hand to mouth feeding. I finally upped the pieces in to teensy tiny bite sized pieces. As she learned to bite at her food, I made the pieces a little bigger. Now, I still have to cut the pieces kinda small as compared to the other felions but she'll eat her raw and she eats bone, too! Massive improvement.

In total, because I did not give up, because I kept at it, it took about a week to get them switched over.

It CAN be difficult....simply because you can't say to a cat, "Fine, you won't eat this, you just don't eat tonight at all." With dogs, you can hold out for a few days until they are so hungry they'll eat. 

But, keep at it, take away the free range food. That's the first step. That bowl of kibble you have out all day? Take it away. I fed them kibble in the morning, took the food away before going to work and then went to raw that night.

For the hold outs, I gave them canned, (I was prepared for this, see), and snuck microscopic pieces of raw in to that canned food. I upped the amount of those microscopic pieces each day and next thing ya know, they were raw eaters.

You can't starve them and you can't give up.

To compare, by the way, with the hoodlums, I just threw some raw meat down at 'em and they scarfed it up. That was easy.


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## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

Well - not sure I agree with a whole lot of that (it was written by a breeder) especially since no, we aren't killing 21 million dogs a year like we once were, but you can't sneeze at between 4-7 million. I guess it depends on one's definition of an "Adoptable" dog. i do know they ship dogs from southern states to the northeast, where there are alot more adopters. And I think a shortage of dogs would be a GOOD thing - makes a dog more precious, not just one in a useless thousand. But I don't believe for one short minute we actually have a dog shortage in this country. As long as homeless dogs are being killed every day, we have too many dogs.

however, the spay/neuter thing - I know a rescue who got puppies spayed at I think 6-8 weeks, so they wouldn't be adopted without being fixed. I don't even think alot of vets will do that.

On the other hand, I have been told an intact dog has alot more chance of getting testicular cancer, so it seems like there are advantages/health issues with going either way. 

Personally, I wouldn't mind waiting if there was some birth control you could give a dog, like with people.


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## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

SerenityFL said:


> I switched my cats to raw, all 7 of 'em. It depends on the cat. A few took to it right away like they were just waiting for me to pull my head out and get with the program.


This proves two things:

a) people like you ARE the experts. Seven cats. amazing. compared to the vet, you have a billion times more knowledge of what it takes.

b) you _can_ outwit a cat. I wasn't sure it was possible


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## CavePaws (Jan 25, 2011)

Well, Pooper comes into heat once a year usually and it lasts about a week and a half. We think it is just how she cycles, last time we took her to the vet they ran a ton of tests on her because apparently she looked too skinny and they thought she wasn't having two heats because of her weight. I've had bad experiences with spaying, one of my dogs got staph from a spay at a really reputable vet, she was also allergic to the sutures used. Pooper and Paris are half sisters so I'm sort of scared it might cause the same thing with Pooper. There is doggy birth control. Pooper is always with us and rarely left alone/has no access to dogs who are not neutered. I would never let her get pregnant, this is one reason I am comfortable with it.

I agree, I definitely do not agree with everything in that article. But I do know that waiting to spay until after the first heat usually insures that the dog has developed enough to not have too many problems caused by spaying.

edit: Thanks serenity! Two of her cats won't touch wet food at all. :[ They try to bury it like it's poop. The youngest ones still have hope! They eat wet food all the time. I've been sneaking raw meat into my cats food, they make the most hilarious faces when they get a chunk of it.


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## werecatrising (Oct 15, 2010)

It's great she found a vet that is willing to discuss raw! I have always heard it is harder to switch cats. I know I had a hard time with mine- and not all are on eaw yet.




CavePaws said:


> Ya, that's what I was thinking xelil...I wonder if she feeds her animals a raw diet or science diet. Haaaa. Well my sister and I discussed it and were laughing about how vets are vested in Hills just like our government is vested in Oil - When these huge companies are giving the government and veterinarians so much funding it is no wonder they have no interest in cleaner sources of energy and raw diets. Lol.


I keep hearing stuff like this time and time again. Honestly, I don't think vets gain all that much from the food companies. I forget what out mark up on food is, but under 10 percent. Staff members are paid to unload the food orders and put them in storage when they come in. That food then needs to be stocked up front as needed. Then you have the payroll spent ordering, keeping track of inventory, etc. The hospital is not getting tons of free food. Several years ago we got one free bag a month. Now we get one bag per month at cost. We used to get a free bag of puppy or kitten food for each new pet kit, but that hasn't happened in a long time.



Not all pet owners are like the ones who frequent these forums. Many want convenience. The doctors at my hospital have often discussed keeping a very minimal amount of prescription diets on hand and that's it. You would be surprised at the amount of complaints we heard when we quit stocking maintenance diets. We often recommend home cooking. Believe it or not, people would rather spend 80 bucks on a bag of hypoallergenic kibble than take time to prepare food for their pet. 

There is no doubt in my mind that most vets know very little about nutrition. And it is true that the nutrition courses are funded by the food companies. When it comes down to it, I really think most vets think the crap they sell is good for the animals.


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## RaisingWolves (Mar 19, 2011)

CavePaws said:


> edit: I guess ovarian cancer can only come when they haven't been spayed...I have one dog in the house who hasn't been spayed yet...I probably won't have her spayed until she is five or six.
> I just read this article while sipping my coffee a second ago. Check it out!
> RETHINKING SPAY & NEUTER, by Geneva Coats, R.N.


I thought this was another really interesting point of view...

Why spay/neuter is like kibble | PetConnection.com

Note: I'm not against spay or nueter, but I am against early speuter. I also believe there are many pet owners who should not have an intact animal.


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## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

When I was young, as a rule of thumb the vets recommended at six months, or normally right before the first heat. So maybe we should have waited until right after. 

If they weren't gaining from having that food there, they wouldn't be selling it from their office. Just my opinion. My vet sells it, but it's not in a giant display just like in a grocery store in the waiting room, like at my emergency vet.

Doctors don't sell food as prescriptions, why do vets? Especially if they have it where you can just walk in and buy it without a prescription? Follow the money.... there's always a reason for stuff like that. So there's money somewhere.

I SO agree RaisingWolves - if people were responsible, we woudn't have to worry about spaying puppies at 8 weeks old so they don't end up populating the world.


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## bully4life (Aug 9, 2010)

RawFedDogs said:


> Not only does it bother me that they have such a limited amount of knowledge on nutrition, 99%+ of them have never fed raw so they don't know how to help someone get started, nor do they know a lot of the benefits or how to tweak the diet.


Isn't that what big business all about... I cant remember where i heard this, but it went something like this.. An informed consumer is the worst consumer. Of course this was coming from a ' big business' marketer . Where has all the common sense gone ???


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## CavePaws (Jan 25, 2011)

I'm not against Spay and Neuter either, in fact, I am pro-spay/neuter. But I am definitely anti-early spay/neuter. There just isn't legitimate reason to do it early if you are re-homing adoptable dogs and puppies to informed owners. :/ 

The fact is, though, that veterinarians are getting something out of selling Hills in their clinics. It wouldn't be there if they weren't getting anything out of it or if they weren't brain washed by Hills in school.


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## RaisingWolves (Mar 19, 2011)

xellil said:


> When I was young, as a rule of thumb the vets recommended at six months, or normally right before the first heat. So maybe we should have waited until right after.


It's best to wait for the growth plates to close. Depending on the size of the dog. I think small to medium dogs 12-14 months old. I know some boxer breeders recommend 18 months old, and mastiff 24 months old.


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## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

RaisingWolves said:


> It's best to wait for the growth plates to close. Depending on the size of the dog. I think small to medium dogs 12-14 months old. I know some boxer breeders recommend 18 months old, and mastiff 24 months old.


That's ALOT older than most people do it, I would bet.


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## CavePaws (Jan 25, 2011)

We've had to beg people in our classes not to spay or neuter their great danes and mastiffs at 6 months old...That is NUTS. :|


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## RaisingWolves (Mar 19, 2011)

CavePaws said:


> We've had to beg people in our classes not to spay or neuter their great danes and mastiffs at 6 months old...That is NUTS. :|



It really sucks that I have to argue with my vet about my decision not to spay @ 6 months old. It's my dog, my money, my choice. I hate the scare tactics they use too.


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## Savage Destiny (Mar 16, 2011)

I have four cats, and switched to raw with varying degrees of success. Cats ARE often harder to switch, they're a lot more picky and as someone else mentioned, you cannot just starve them until they give in thanks to fatty liver disease. 

My two boys switched with zero problems. They'll eat anything, bones, ground, whatever. My old lady kitty was harder, she did not want to eat it and I had to mix ground stuff with canned food. Even so, she still to this day will not eat home made, let alone touch anything not ground! I have to feed her pre-made patties, and even then she will only eat Stella and Chewy's and only two flavors of that! 

My Persian would NOT switch. It didn't matter what I tried. If a shred of raw food sneaks its way into her canned, she won't touch the entire portion. She won't even eat most of the canned food I try. 

The worst ever was switching two adult, kibble-imprinted ferrets to raw! That was a circus!


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## SerenityFL (Sep 28, 2010)

Well...I'm one who got the hoodlums spayed and neutered at 6 months of age. I have a boy and a girl....I didn't want to wait until after first heat because I did not want any puppies running around. I have enough animals as it is. No one scared me in to it, no one told me I HAD to do it at 6 months, I chose to do that because, again, I don't want puppies. 

In the future, if I have just one dog, I'll go later but not with a boy and girl in the house. Siblings or not, they'll still have relations if not fixed.


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## CavePaws (Jan 25, 2011)

I agree SerenityFL, my dogs other than Pooper were all spayed and neutered by 7 or 8 months.


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## candiceb (Jan 22, 2010)

My dogs aren't neutered and I still get flack about it from my vet. Nothing really trying to "scare" me or anything, just "Well, you may want to think about neutering in the future. Neutering greatly reduces the risk of prostate cancer...etc..." Or, "You could always have them neutered some time when they're in for a dental!" Lol, like that's ever going to happen. Never mind the fact that I keep gently reminding her that my dogs are show dogs that have a strong possibility of being used for breeding. I've read the studies, I know what I'm dealing with, and I can handle my intact dogs. 

*sigh* Sometimes I'd like to just tell vets to mind their own business and just take care of what I'm there for.


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## RaisingWolves (Mar 19, 2011)

I listened to the vet for my first two dogs. I spay/neutered by 6 months old, and I believe my male boxer grew too tall as a result. It does change the way the dog develops. 
When I began researching the mastiff breed,I contacted a few breeders asking for a female with a spay contract. Much to my surprise, a breeder told me that he would void my health contract if I spayed prior to 2 years old. It was the first time I was ever told there are cons to spay/neuter. 
I asked several breeders their opinion and much to my surprise many agreed. 

SerenityFL, if I had an intact male in my home when my female went into heat, I would have sent him to grandma's house for a few weeks. My dogs are not related, but there is no way I want to raise a little of mongrel pups! 
I personally would never take the chance of housing two intact dogs. There are far too many accidents from inexperienced pet owners.


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## Tobi (Mar 18, 2011)

I've only done little research on this subject i honestly wish we would have waited with Tobi until he was done developing *wonders if it would have changed anything* but he was a humping machine and the "scare tactics" of the vet is why we did it at about 6 months for Tobi.


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## Boxers&Pom's Mom (Jan 17, 2011)

CavePaws said:


> Well, my sister took her cats to the vet the other day and told the vet about how I put my dogs on a raw diet. She was talking about how awesome their coats and breath are and the vet said that was awesome and that raw diets are really great for dogs and cats.
> 
> She did tell my sister that switching cats can be harder and it does take more time than kibble and wet food...She also told my sister that, since she free feeds the cats, it would probably be doubly as hard to switch them. ]: Well, darn. I was all excited that the vet commended raw diets but then went and told her some major cons. :[ It doesn't take _that _long...D: Especially since half the work is done for her since I've got hookups for suppliers and she could use some of our freezer space if she wanted for bulk orders. :[
> 
> But, anyway, I think if I have to argue about food with the vet I take my dogs to it's probably going to be a no go. I just don't feel like a lot of vets know enough about nutrition for me to truly trust their opinion on some matters. :/


I tried my cats, but I am agree is so many cons. First you can fast a dog, but you can not fast a cat. The dogs can eat meat that is not fresh, cat don't. You need a lot of time in your hands to transfer them to raw. I feel bad for my cats, but they not even look at it. Not even raw fish they will touch. My cats are so picky that if I give them different can food, they will not eat it. For now, they are in Evo Kibbles and eating Friski shredder can food.


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## monkeys23 (Dec 8, 2010)

I would love to switch my cat. She won't even touch wet food though. I can't really even attempt right now since she's still at my mom's because of my living situation and I only get to see her on weekends (grr!! I want to move again so bad...). I wish I could successfully get her on raw because her teeth are terrible. She's had four removed and will probably have more on her next dental. And she's only 5! 

I am pretty sure Scout is so tall and gangly because she was spayed at 13 weeks (she was part of a hoarding bust). She's like six inches taller than Lily, but there is only a 10lb weight difference. I bet they'd be built almost exactly the same if Scout had been spayed at one year like Lily was.


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## 3Musketeers (Nov 4, 2010)

On the whole spay/neuter topic, it is indeed a very touchy subject, because for one, you don't want irresponsible owners with intact pets, but at the same time, early (and regular) spay/neuter has it's health risks. And then there are those people who think EVERY dog should be spayed or neutered. Personally I don't like early spay/neuter, but I suppose in many cases it's necessary. If someone does decide to keep an intact dog then they should make sure to prevent any situations where accidental breedings can occur (I was once a bad example, okay, so I learned, don't kill me).
My Sparky isn't neutered, the girls are spayed however, but I have a double-fence and the only time he gets out (or even wants to) is on a leash, plus I know certain behaviors towards other dogs aren't going to change by having him neutered, rather, they will improve by training (or more like other dogs snapping at him). He's pushy, what can I say? He doesn't get to see females in heat, I make sure of that. Intact females, no problem, there used to be one (she would probably dig out of the owners yard) that came over every day at 5pm so I would let her in to play with the 3 brats, except a few times I think she was in heat.


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## Northwoods10 (Nov 22, 2010)

We had Nallah spayed at 7 months. Morgan came to us spayed and I believe she was spayed about the same time. 

Remi will be neutered but not until he is done growing which I am told is around 2 years old. 

I knew little to nothing about timing and spaying/neutering when we got Nallah fixed.


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## schtuffy (May 17, 2010)

Tobi said:


> I've only done little research on this subject i honestly wish we would have waited with Tobi until he was done developing *wonders if it would have changed anything* but he was a humping machine and the "scare tactics" of the vet is why we did it at about 6 months for Tobi.


I'm in the exact same boat as you :frown: Louis was neutered at 5 months, which was after I had already postponed it once. He had the Banfield puppy plan, and they actually take away the "discount" if you do it after 6 months, and I was pressured into doing it because I felt like I was running out of time. How I wish I had done research back then. He definitely doesn't hump [inanimate objects] anymore though, lol!


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## SerenityFL (Sep 28, 2010)

monkeys23 said:


> I would love to switch my cat. She won't even touch wet food though. I can't really even attempt right now since she's still at my mom's because of my living situation and I only get to see her on weekends (grr!! I want to move again so bad...). I wish I could successfully get her on raw because her teeth are terrible. She's had four removed and will probably have more on her next dental. And she's only 5!


Then you start at step one and get her to eat canned food. Place a teensy amount in her dry food. Don't fret if she eats around it the first few times. Eventually, she's going to eat that canned food if you keep putting in tiny, and I mean TINY amounts in to her kibble. After awhile, you can up the amount of canned food in to the dry food. Eventually, you will have your cat switched to canned.

Give it a good week of eating nothing but canned.

Then, start putting in microscopic, and I don't mean chunks, I mean microscopic pieces of raw in to their canned. You shouldn't be able to tell it's in there by looking at it. It should be small enough that it blends well with the canned.

Eventually, you start to up the amount until your cat is eating all raw, (little, teensy, tiny, microscopic pieces...I cannot stress enough HOW SMALL the pieces must be...get a grinder), and then you can eventually stop grinding and start cutting the meat in to tiny pieces, very small, bite sized pieces.

But, the trick is, everything must be small, small, small, so small you can't tell, until they have eaten it without knowing it.

When you are able, that is.

As for the teeth, do what I did and grind the food, hand feed it to her. 

All of this takes time. Some may take a week, some may take a month, some may take two months. Or more. But keep at it. Your cat will get used to it.


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## KittyKat (Feb 11, 2011)

My cats will eat canned, but they are really fussy. I have tried offering them very small amounts of it by itself, and with the canned... but the moment they smell it, everything is rejected. They often reject the canned by itself as well.

... my dog will eat what they won't though. She thinks dryer lint is tasty sooooo....


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## Mokapi (Apr 7, 2011)

I've talked to two holistic vets over the past two days, and neither of them were exceptionally helpful and both said things about raw that confused me.

The first woman owns "Indiana Veterinary Alternatives", and does acupuncture on dogs and was the one who had vegan diets posted on her Facebook wall. She said that she has clients that COOK for their pets (BARF diet or something, maybe?), but doesn't know many who feed raw. She did say that raw diets are healthy if you do them correctly, and advised me against spending any money on dentals because of the benefits of chewing bones, but also said that after a dog turns six or seven, you should consider them a senior and said that you have to cook their food. She said that when they reach this age you can still feed them raw, but that their bodies will start telling you it's having a harder time processing it by them constantly having diarrhea. 

The second woman said she doesn't recommend feeding raw until you have read "at LEAST three books on it", because it's so easy to do it wrong, but I guess a lot of her clients either feed raw or BARF diet. She said she supplements her dogs' diets with chicken wings, drumsticks, and necks, but doesn't have them on all-raw. She also said that for dogs as small as Chip, she recommends the "pre-made" diets found in freezers at pet stores because it's easier for them. 

Neither knew what PMR was, and neither really told me the things I was wanting to hear from a holistic vet, but that's better than our current vet.


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## Boxers&Pom's Mom (Jan 17, 2011)

Mokapi said:


> I've talked to two holistic vets over the past two days, and neither of them were exceptionally helpful and both said things about raw that confused me.
> 
> The first woman owns "Indiana Veterinary Alternatives", and does acupuncture on dogs and was the one who had vegan diets posted on her Facebook wall. She said that she has clients that COOK for their pets (BARF diet or something, maybe?), but doesn't know many who feed raw. She did say that raw diets are healthy if you do them correctly, and advised me against spending any money on dentals because of the benefits of chewing bones, but also said that after a dog turns six or seven, you should consider them a senior and said that you have to cook their food. She said that when they reach this age you can still feed them raw, but that their bodies will start telling you it's having a harder time processing it by them constantly having diarrhea.
> 
> ...


I have two Seniors Boxers. One is very allergic and I have them for about three months in RAW Prey Model Diet. So far, so good. I even gave them a large portion of liver and no diarrhea at all.


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## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

Mokapi said:


> She said that when they reach this age you can still feed them raw, but that their bodies will start telling you it's having a harder time processing it by them constantly having diarrhea.


Can I say -- HARDY-HAR-HAR-HAR!!!

she needs to come explain that to my two old geezers, who are both constipated.


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## CavePaws (Jan 25, 2011)

...6 or 7 is a senior? Ughhh, I feel like I need to make a survey and hand it out to a ton of vets and then rate them on how they answered to see if I would take a dog to them. :| My next vet visit isn't going to be fun when they try to make me vaccinate the pups and ask me what diet they are on.


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## Tobi (Mar 18, 2011)

rojerronny said:


> If you go for a wet food make sure their teeth are well cared for dogs. *By eating dry food really helps keep teeth clean*, while from canned / fresh not achieve this effect. I have not heard of it before, but makes a cool Select pet has a very good website that I checked out - I do not like lots of vegetables and rice is no longer necessary to add to their products. The slice and serve fresh pet list is well selected ingredients.


That's pretty false, that would be like saying eat captain crunch to clean your teeth...


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