# Calling all breeders...



## SterlingValleyGoldens (Aug 12, 2012)

I recently switched all our dogs over to PMR and am loving the results. I breed golden retrievers and would love to raise our litters on raw as well since I believe it's the best diet for them. But, realistically, I know most new owners won't continue this. For those of you who breed, do you continue to raw until they go home and ask they switch them gradually? Do you switch them gradually yourself before they go home? Do you feed raw and kibble to avoid this problem? I'd like what is best for our litters, but not if it will cause them problems with their digestive systems when they go to their new homes.


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## SaharaNight Boxers (Jun 28, 2011)

Off topic I know, but you only test for eyes? And if I'm reading correctly Blue Diamond Goldens has some questionable circumstances with their puppies. I noticed you said you were a hobby breeder also. I'm sorry, but it seems like you have a backyard breeding thing going on. If I'm wrong I'm sorry, but that's kind of what I'm seeing. 

Can you correct me please?


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## SterlingValleyGoldens (Aug 12, 2012)

The eyes are only listed on the site. The hips, elbows, cardiac, and thyroid have been sent to the OFA. I don't consider myself to be a backyard breeder. I will confess to breeding a litter prior to knowing about all the health clearances, which i would agree is more along the lines of backyard breeding. We all live and learn and make better choices from our mistakes. thanks for your concern though.


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## SaharaNight Boxers (Jun 28, 2011)

Ok thanks! Sorry I just get wary. I know a lot of breeders who actually start their puppies on kibble. There's two breeders here that have had to deal with it before you hopefully they'll chime in. I haven't raised a litter yet, but I would give first priority to those that would feed raw. I know a few breeders do that too and that's probably what I'm going to do.


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## hund (Aug 7, 2012)

Realistically, most people feed their dogs kibble/canned. I would be worried that their GI couldn't handle it if they were switched from raw to kibble. I don't think theres much of a point...


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## whiteleo (Sep 7, 2008)

hund said:


> Realistically, most people feed their dogs kibble/canned. I would be worried that their GI couldn't handle it if they were switched from raw to kibble. I don't think theres much of a point...


Except, more people are educating themselves and doing research on what really is in kibble, so I wouldn't be surprised that if given the right/proper info more and more people would keep their pups on a raw diet.


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## SaharaNight Boxers (Jun 28, 2011)

hund said:


> Realistically, most people feed their dogs kibble/canned. I would be worried that their GI couldn't handle it if they were switched from raw to kibble. I don't think theres much of a point...


There's definitely a good reason. One Boxer breeder compared two of their litters. One was kibble fed and the other was raw fed. The raw fed ones were heathier looking, stronger, developed faster, had more bone, etc. They now feed all their dogs raw.


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## hund (Aug 7, 2012)

I'm talking about reality not wishful thinking. The general public doesnt even know how to choose a quality kibble muchless how to feed raw. If you were to feed raw from the time they were weaned I would discuss it with the prospective adopters and see what they would choose to feed or educate them on raw feeding.


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## RedneckCowgirl (Oct 28, 2011)

If I ever bred a litter, I would require that the raw feeding be continued. I would be more than happy to educate them on how to do this properly as well as point them in the direction of some good websites.


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## Liz (Sep 27, 2010)

We breed and pups are weaned onto raw. It may be because of the variety of proteins they receive they transition easily to high end kibble. Most of my pups go to raw feeding homes but I have 4 pups in homes being trained as service dogs and one is on Ziwi peak, two are on pre-made raw and one is on Origen. They have all done well. The vast majority of my pups go to raw feeding homes. Once people know where you stand you placing naturally reared pups is not difficult. We currently have awaiting list on our collies and all are raw feeding, naturally rearing homes. There is a thread in the Health issues and question page on weaning to raw. Hope that it can answer some questions.


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## nupe (Apr 26, 2011)

Guys I must say , unless you only selling the pups to people who sign a contract to feed RAW or you know very well AND TRUST THEIR WORD......I really cant realisticly see the RAW continuing once they go home or at home for a while with new owner...Just Being Realistic here!!!...and definitely not every owner of every new pup.....AND i FEED RAW...((PMR, PRE MADE RAW AND HIGH QUALITY GRAIN FREE KIBBLE)


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## RedneckCowgirl (Oct 28, 2011)

nupe said:


> Guys I must say , unless you only selling the pups to people who sign a contract to feed RAW or you know very well AND TRUST THEIR WORD......I really cant realisticly see the RAW continuing once they go home or at home for a while with new owner...Just Being Realistic here!!!...and definitely not every owner of every new pup.....AND i FEED RAW...((PMR, PRE MADE RAW AND HIGH QUALITY GRAIN FREE KIBBLE)


I would chose a raw feeding home (as in, that is what they feed currently/have fed with plans to continue feeding) over an identical home that feeds kibble. Personal preference. But no, you can never guarantee that they will continue to feed raw


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## Liz (Sep 27, 2010)

What our pups are fed is included in their contract and several things will nullify the guarantee. I also give alternatives in certain circumstances as in the handicapped who have our pups but I also give guidelines of kibble, pre made, and dehydrated I feel are of excellent quality. We also have extensive conversation, and sharing before deciding on a home for a pup. There is risk but we try to do everything possible to mitigate that risk and be supportive of new owners.


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## nupe (Apr 26, 2011)

understandable^^^^


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## InkedMarie (Sep 9, 2011)

Liz,
I've never looked at your website but I just did; oh those sheltie puppies! It took me back to when I picked out our Tucker. It was a hobby home, it was a spur of the moment purchase but outside of marrying my husband & having kids, he was the best thing I've ever done. Thanks for making me smile, now I'm really missing my boy though!


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## SaharaNight Boxers (Jun 28, 2011)

nupe said:


> Guys I must say , unless you only selling the pups to people who sign a contract to feed RAW or you know very well AND TRUST THEIR WORD......I really cant realisticly see the RAW continuing once they go home or at home for a while with new owner...Just Being Realistic here!!!...and definitely not every owner of every new pup.....AND i FEED RAW...((PMR, PRE MADE RAW AND HIGH QUALITY GRAIN FREE KIBBLE)


Exactly what Liz said. Plus, there are only a few breeders who see actually affiliated with the NBRA. If you search for a pup on there you really want a naturally reared pup and will raise it right and feed it raw.


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## RedneckCowgirl (Oct 28, 2011)

SaharaNight Boxers said:


> Exactly what Liz said. Plus, there are only a few breeders who see actually affiliated with the NBRA. If you search for a pup on there *you really want a naturally reared pup and will raise it right and feed it raw.*


This. If someone goes though the trouble of looking for a raw fed, naturally reared pup they probably aren't going to turn around and feed it crap food.


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## Liz (Sep 27, 2010)

Thank you. I get a little grief for not listing testing info but if and when we get beyond hello's someone who is getting a pup gets all health records for puppy and parents. We started many years ago with temperament, structure and intelligence. That they are lovely has always just been a perk. Since going to Natural rearing small behavioral things have changed and we now get both shelties and collies who are amazing service dogs and i am really focusing on that. My dogs love their people and live to serve and I am happy they can be off assistance. Again, that they are beautiful is just a perk.


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## SterlingValleyGoldens (Aug 12, 2012)

RedneckCowgirl said:


> If I ever bred a litter, I would require that the raw feeding be continued. I would be more than happy to educate them on how to do this properly as well as point them in the direction of some good websites.


The problem lies in the fact that even if it's in a contract, you can't enforce and the new owners are going to do what they want with their dog. Personally, I'd honor my breeders wishes, or go with a different breeder, but not everyone is like that. I don't want our pups to have digestion issues because i'm banking on the new owners following PMR.


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## Liz (Sep 27, 2010)

We have not had issues like I said but it also depends on how sensitive your dogs are in the tummy. Mine are pretty easy about food changes but if you have very sensitive dogs then you might want to wean to raw and the switch them to the kibble the new owner will be feeding a week or ten days before they go to a new home. If they have strong tummies I wouldn't worry as they will be used to a variety of proteins and should switch pretty easily. 

For me I feel if I can't trust the people I place my puppy with to follow a natural protocol I won't be selling to them.  We have had good success overall and like I said before have 11 naturally rearing homes lined up for collies. They have been waiting a long time.


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## InkedMarie (Sep 9, 2011)

Liz said:


> Thank you. I get a little grief for not listing testing info but if and when we get beyond hello's someone who is getting a pup gets all health records for puppy and parents. We started many years ago with temperament, structure and intelligence. That they are lovely has always just been a perk. Since going to Natural rearing small behavioral things have changed and we now get both shelties and collies who are amazing service dogs and i am really focusing on that. My dogs love their people and live to serve and I am happy they can be off assistance. Again, that they are beautiful is just a perk.


If you don't mind me asking, are your dogs more outgoing or more reserved? Our very first was from what I now know as a byb'er...he came to me at 7mos and he was pretty shy. Tucker came to me from a hobby breeder at 10 weeks, he was a big oversized gorgeous blue merle who loved everyone. Katie came to me very sick at age 11 years and was very outgoing as well. A friend of mine lost his sheltie, got a 6 month old puppy from a breeder but this little boy is very very shy, very fearful and I think he's regretting getting the dog. I'm no help, I've never had a fearful dog.
I wish you weren't way over on the other side of the country.


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## bernadettelevis (Feb 2, 2011)

i don't breed and i don't plan on breeding in the future. BUT if i ever were to breed, i would defenitely have some "theory classes" with the new puppy owners. Not only about food, but also about training, vaccinations and so on..
I would probably be fine if they chose to feed a high quality kibble or canned food for different reasons, but if people don't care or are not interesed in learning (about food or positive training) they would not get a puppy from me. It is one thing if people do not know better, but if they are ignorant and don't want to learn anything new or are just not interested in what they feed their dog, they would not get one of my puppies. 

If people do not make the effort to learn about appropriate food, how dogs learn, the limbic system, calming signals and so on....will they make the effort to take propper care of the dog? Will they make the effort to take care of an old or sick dog? I don't think so. 
If people are open and tell me why they want to feed kibble or canned food and are trying to find the best they can, then i would totally be fine with that. I think honesty is very important and you could openly talk to the new puppy owners about food before they go to a new home and tell them your concerns and wishes and if they choose to feed a high quality kibble, you could get this puppy used to it while he is still with you!

Just my .02


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## Liz (Sep 27, 2010)

Marie,

My shelties love to work. The adore their families with a passion. For the most part they are not attention seekers. They will tolerate affection and handling from others but will usually not initiate. There is no fear just an aloofness. My puppies start going to church with me a 6 weeks and ride our church busses to meet and greet kids. My pups meet over 100 kids and adults per week from 6 - 14 weeks old. They are raised with collies and I petsit so they learn early how to play with many other breeds from tiny 3 pound silky terriers to Great Danes. I don't call them shy just aloof and not needy. Now the collies adore everyone and are sure you have to to see them. LOL

When we work with rescue shelties/collies who are poorly bred and have extreme fear issues I wait for them to come to me. My family know to totally ignore the dog. We feed, groom on an as needed basis (minimal) and allow the dogs to find his feet. Once they realize we are not after them they start searching family members out. When we get to where they are asking for attention then we can start bringing that dog out. But everything has to start with them initializing the interaction. JMHO


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## hund (Aug 7, 2012)

Liz said:


> Marie,
> 
> My shelties love to work. The adore their families with a passion. For the most part they are not attention seekers. They will tolerate affection and handling from others but will usually not initiate. There is no fear just an aloofness. My puppies start going to church with me a 6 weeks and ride our church busses to meet and greet kids. My pups meet over 100 kids and adults per week from 6 - 14 weeks old. They are raised with collies and I petsit so they learn early how to play with many other breeds from tiny 3 pound silky terriers to Great Danes. I don't call them shy just aloof and not needy. Now the collies adore everyone and are sure you have to to see them. LOL
> 
> When we work with rescue shelties/collies who are poorly bred and have extreme fear issues I wait for them to come to me. My family know to totally ignore the dog. We feed, groom on an as needed basis (minimal) and allow the dogs to find his feet. Once they realize we are not after them they start searching family members out. When we get to where they are asking for attention then we can start bringing that dog out. But everything has to start with them initializing the interaction. JMHO


I've never really had a good experience with a Shelties where I live. They are either majorly high strung or fearful/nervous, and YAPPY... OMGoodness.
I LOVE collies though. My cousin owns one and she is just a doll!


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## SterlingValleyGoldens (Aug 12, 2012)

Liz said:


> We have not had issues like I said but it also depends on how sensitive your dogs are in the tummy. Mine are pretty easy about food changes but if you have very sensitive dogs then you might want to wean to raw and the switch them to the kibble the new owner will be feeding a week or ten days before they go to a new home. If they have strong tummies I wouldn't worry as they will be used to a variety of proteins and should switch pretty easily.
> 
> For me I feel if I can't trust the people I place my puppy with to follow a natural protocol I won't be selling to them.  We have had good success overall and like I said before have 11 naturally rearing homes lined up for collies. They have been waiting a long time.


So far we haven't had any trust issues, or I wouldn't be selling them a puppy. while I like feeding raw, and it's right for us. I understand it's NOT right for everyone. I do expect them to feed a high quality dog kibble though. I also wouldn't feel comfortable forcing somebody to feed raw, but definitely will give preference to owners who share a similiar view on raising their aimals more naturally.


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## SterlingValleyGoldens (Aug 12, 2012)

bernadettelevis said:


> i don't breed and i don't plan on breeding in the future. BUT if i ever were to breed, i would defenitely have some "theory classes" with the new puppy owners. Not only about food, but also about training, vaccinations and so on..
> I would probably be fine if they chose to feed a high quality kibble or canned food for different reasons, but if people don't care or are not interesed in learning (about food or positive training) they would not get a puppy from me. It is one thing if people do not know better, but if they are ignorant and don't want to learn anything new or are just not interested in what they feed their dog, they would not get one of my puppies.
> 
> If people do not make the effort to learn about appropriate food, how dogs learn, the limbic system, calming signals and so on....will they make the effort to take propper care of the dog? Will they make the effort to take care of an old or sick dog? I don't think so.
> ...


We do theory classes and work with a trainer beginning around 4-5 weeks of age who only uses positive training techniques. We also work with her AND the new owners prior to picking them up to "hand over" the training to speak. We go in depth into nutrition, but my main question was just IF they choose not to feed raw will it upset their stomachs.


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## bernadettelevis (Feb 2, 2011)

SterlingValleyGoldens said:


> We do theory classes and work with a trainer beginning around 4-5 weeks of age who only uses positive training techniques. We also work with her AND the new owners prior to picking them up to "hand over" the training to speak. We go in depth into nutrition, but my main question was just IF they choose not to feed raw will it upset their stomachs.


Well if they choose not to feed raw, you can prepare the puppy for alternatives and i don't think they will have big problems with high quality foods.


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## InkedMarie (Sep 9, 2011)

Liz said:


> Marie,
> 
> My shelties love to work. The adore their families with a passion. For the most part they are not attention seekers. They will tolerate affection and handling from others but will usually not initiate. There is no fear just an aloofness. My puppies start going to church with me a 6 weeks and ride our church busses to meet and greet kids. My pups meet over 100 kids and adults per week from 6 - 14 weeks old. They are raised with collies and I petsit so they learn early how to play with many other breeds from tiny 3 pound silky terriers to Great Danes. I don't call them shy just aloof and not needy. Now the collies adore everyone and are sure you have to to see them. LOL
> 
> When we work with rescue shelties/collies who are poorly bred and have extreme fear issues I wait for them to come to me. My family know to totally ignore the dog. We feed, groom on an as needed basis (minimal) and allow the dogs to find his feet. Once they realize we are not after them they start searching family members out. When we get to where they are asking for attention then we can start bringing that dog out. But everything has to start with them initializing the interaction. JMHO


Liz,
Can I share the last part with the guy I know? Funny thing is, I know a sheltie person who knows this breeder & I gather she's pretty good. I've never searched out a sheltie breeder; my puppy days are over. Give me an older dog any day. Not that I dont love puppies, who doesn't but i've had enough. Thank you for the response!


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## SterlingValleyGoldens (Aug 12, 2012)

bernadettelevis said:


> Well if they choose not to feed raw, you can prepare the puppy for alternatives and i don't think they will have big problems with high quality foods.


how would I prepare them for alternatives? Just by raw feeding various protein sources, doing some kibble, some raw? That's the part i'm confused about.


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## Liz (Sep 27, 2010)

Marie - yes please share it really works here with some very frightened dogs.. I understand about puppies - though I adore them they are a lot of work. 

Hund - we never speak these words at the house but the collies are perfect; the shelties are runners up.  I grew up with Shelties though and will probably always have one. They are very sweet and good ones are priceless.

Sterling - I have not had tummy issues with the few that went to kibble. If you really wanted to you could start feeding a meal of kibble and one or two of raw a week or so before they go to their new homes. We have not had any problems with grain free kibble after weaning to raw.


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## LilasMom (Mar 10, 2012)

SterlingValleyGoldens said:


> The problem lies in the fact that even if it's in a contract, you can't enforce and the new owners are going to do what they want with their dog. Personally, I'd honor my breeders wishes, or go with a different breeder, but not everyone is like that. *I don't want our pups to have digestion issues because i'm banking on the new owners following PMR*.


Tummy upset can happen when switching any diet. So even if you fed kibble, you can't guarantee they will feed the same thing either. Raw fed dogs have very strong tummies, so I think that if there were digestion issues they would probably be minimal.

Either way, the benefits of prey model raw VASTLY outweigh the discomfort of digestion issues for a couple of weeks. The raw will give them such a great head start to life, I don't see how it would be in the dogs best interest to feed kibble just to avoid a bit of diarrhea. You need to think the short term benefits vs long term benefits.


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## SterlingValleyGoldens (Aug 12, 2012)

Thanks Liz, I'll try that. We've always done grain-free to begin with and we did tell our buyers that's our preerence, and they all bought a bag of what we were feeding with instructions on how to gently change food if they were going to change, along with what to look for in a good quality food.


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## SterlingValleyGoldens (Aug 12, 2012)

LilasMom said:


> Tummy upset can happen when switching any diet. So even if you fed kibble, you can't guarantee they will feed the same thing either. Raw fed dogs have very strong tummies, so I think that if there were digestion issues they would probably be minimal.
> 
> Either way, the benefits of prey model raw VASTLY outweigh the discomfort of digestion issues for a couple of weeks. The raw will give them such a great head start to life, I don't see how it would be in the dogs best interest to feed kibble just to avoid a bit of diarrhea. You need to think the short term benefits vs long term benefits.


thanks Lilas, that's what I was thinking, but wanted to make sure my thinking was correct! Always second guessing myself.


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## bernadettelevis (Feb 2, 2011)

with prepare them, i meant that if you know before that the new owners want to feed kibble, you could get this puppy used to eating kibble.
New Home, new people and a new food can be a bit much on a little puppy so if the puppy could already get used to the kibble the new owners want to feed, i doubt there would be any problems.


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