# Say it aint so!!! P&G buys out Natura!!!



## Unosmom

I am so mad right now 


Breaking News: Proctor & Gamble Purchases Natura Pet Products


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## BabyHusky

noo.....please say this is a joke...

at least i still have orijen!


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## luvMyBRT

This is NOT good news. So now the only reliable company would be the makers of Orijen? This sucks. 

ETA: RAW is sure lookin good right now!!!!


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## Penny & Maggie's Mom

I was just coming here to post the link. I'm in shock........certainly a blow for quality food. Thank doG for Fromm and NOW....... guess Innova is out of our rotation.


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## PUNKem733

saraj2878 said:


> This is NOT good news. So now the only reliable company would be the makers of Orijen? This sucks.
> 
> ETA: RAW is sure lookin good right now!!!!




Don't forget Horizon. They are in Saskatchewan, Canada and really remind me of Orijen in their practices.



> Made with ingredients sourced from within 100 KM of our facility in Rosthern, Saskatchewan


That is amazing!
Horizon Pet Nutrition

I do think Horizon is as good as Evo and Orijen. So all I have to say is I will feed Evo for now, as most products on shelves are from Pre-PG, so I guess I'll stop feeding Evo in about 3-4 months. This is horrifying, but in a way good for me, this is pushing me faster towards raw.


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## CorgiPaws

That is AWFUL news. I don't even feed my dogs kibble and I'm disappointed. 
Geeze, my kibble cat is in trouble. Were moving back to Orem, UT soon, and the nearest place that sells Orijen is 4 hours away. I think we'll need to stock up before leaving town.


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## luvMyBRT

PUNKem733 said:


> Don't forget Horizon. They are in Saskatchewan, Canada and really remind me of Orijen in their practices.
> 
> Horizon Pet Nutrition
> 
> I do think Horizon is as good as Evo and Orijen. So all I have to say is I will feed Evo for now, as most products on shelves are from Pre-PG, so I guess I'll stop feeding Evo in about 3-4 months. This is horrifying, but in a way good for me, this is pushing me faster towards raw.


Thanks! They have a Large Breed Puppy food that looks good.
I am a bit in panic mode right now! LOL. 
I was planning on feeding Innova LBP to our new pup, but now it looks as if I will need to rethink that! I already have a bag on its way, but I think I'm okay as the company hasn't chaged hands yet.... I will be starting from scratch now trying to see what other foods I can get. :frown:

Is there a Large Breed Puppy kibble from Fromm or NOW?


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## PUNKem733

saraj2878 said:


> Thanks! They have a Large Breed Puppy food that looks good.
> I am a bit in panic mode right now! LOL.
> I was planning on feeding Innova LBP to our new pup, but now it looks as if I will need to rethink that! I already have a bag on its way, but I think I'm okay as the company hasn't chaged hands yet.... I will be starting from scratch now trying to see what other foods I can get. :frown:
> 
> Is there a Large Breed Puppy kibble from Fromm or NOW?



Just looked at Fromm's site, and I didn't see any foods for large breed puppies. Also I figured I can feed some fromm in his rotation, but I just can't feed a food with protein content in the mid to low 20% range. Though they do have a grain free surf n turf at 30%.


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## RCTRIPLEFRESH5

PUNKem733 said:


> Just looked at Fromm's site, and I didn't see any foods for large breed puppies. Also I figured I can feed some fromm in his rotation, but I just can't feed a food with protein content in the mid to low 20% range. Though they do have a grain free surf n turf at 30%.


now im pissed off.

love to hear kevin bradleys response to this lol.


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## RCTRIPLEFRESH5

"It's time for the right company to take our brands to the next level of growth. P&G is that company," said John Rademakers, founder and owner of Natura Pet Products. "We know that P&G will honor our history as they capitalize on their strengths to build these brands." 

money driven b******* (Edited by CorgiPaws for language. AGAIN) hehehe.


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## luvMyBRT

RCTRIPLEFRESH5 said:


> "We know that P&G will honor our history as they capitalize on their strengths to build these brands."
> 
> money driven bastards hehehe.


I just wonder how long before any recalls, pets getting sick, etc....:frown:


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## SaltyDog

Another one bites the dust. Remember when Wellness was a good food? Heck, is their anyone on here who remembers when Iams was a good food?

No worries, Evo and Innova will still be good through the summer, but start looking for your replacement by fall.

Orijen all the way now.......until they get the offer they can't refuse.


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## xxshaelxx

oh...my...gawd......That is so WRONG! -.- I'm with CorgiPaws here, I don't feed my dogs any kibble, but it disgusts me that Natura would sell out to Procter and Gamble!!! Now, I don't know what everyone else's opinions are of them (totally sheltered), or if they're the same as mine, but I know they do hardcore animal testing. I NEVER buy products from them if I can help it. I will never recommend Evo or Innova again..... -.-


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## m&mluvpugs

nooooooooo.... finally we have our allergic pup doing really well on CalNat... don't even know what to say.


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## chowder

Unfortunately Chelsy can't eat any kibble with salmon or olive oil in it and Orijen has Salmon in it. Now I have to find a grain free kibble made without Salmon or Olive Oil. Anyone got any suggestions? I just got her all settled on Evo


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## whiteleo

I don't know have you looked at any of the Go Natural lines by petcurean


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## PUNKem733

RCTRIPLEFRESH5 said:


> "It's time for the right company to take our brands to the next level of growth. P&G is that company," said John Rademakers, founder and owner of Natura Pet Products. "We know that P&G will honor our history as they capitalize on their strengths to build these brands."
> 
> money driven b******* (Edited by CorgiPaws for language. AGAIN) hehehe.




LOL!!! This is funnier than any of your posts Triplefresh. So P&G is the right Co to take foods like Evo to the next level, what next level, your foods were damn near perfect! Unless next level means recalls, since they have never had them previously. Can't wait to see the ingredients list in the coming months.


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## RCTRIPLEFRESH5

PUNKem733 said:


> LOL!!! This is funnier than any of your posts Triplefresh. So P&G is the right Co to take foods like Evo to the next level, what next level, your foods were damn near perfect! Unless next level means recalls, since they have never had them previously. Can't wait to see the ingredients list in the coming months.


what's funny is you posted in this thread without even reading the article...that's a quote from the site....i was disagreeing with it..i called them money hungry...

what else is funny is i said i was pissed off about it a few posts above that one and you blindly didnt see...bro..

...


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## chowder

whiteleo said:


> I don't know have you looked at any of the Go Natural lines by petcurean


They all contain salmon and salmon oil. It's really difficult to find any kibble food without salmon or olive oil. Those are the only two things I've found that she HAS to avoid. They make her have horrendous colitis and bloody diarhea. I really want to stick with grain free with her. She's been doing great on the EVO but I won't stay with it once P&G gets hold of it and starts making changes.


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## malluver1005

Unosmom said:


> I am so mad right now
> 
> 
> Breaking News: Proctor & Gamble Purchases Natura Pet Products


wtf! I don't feed kibble anymore, but I love Natura! That is what I fed before raw and what I would feed if I didn't do raw. I guess I should recommend Orijen now... :frown:


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## PUNKem733

RCTRIPLEFRESH5 said:


> what's funny is you posted in this thread without even reading the article...that's a quote from the site....i was disagreeing with it..i called them money hungry...
> 
> what else is funny is i said i was pissed off about it a few posts above that one and you blindly didnt see...bro..
> 
> ...


I read it, I'm saying the quote form that money hungry asswad is funny, especially the part about P&G taking their foods to the next level, as if you can make a food like Evo better. What I hate is why did P&G buy them? It sells a sliver of a fraction of what their garbage like sewage foods already sell.


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## RCTRIPLEFRESH5

PUNKem733 said:


> I read it, I'm saying the quote form that money hungry asswad is funny, especially the part about P&G taking their foods to the next level, as if you can make a food like Evo better. What I hate is why did P&G buy them? It sells a sliver of a fraction of what their garbage like sewage foods already sell.


well im really upset cause i was looking forward to feeding evo herring..now im stuck with either canidae grain free or orijen red...and orijen red is EXPENSIVE..prolly more than evo herring and i like evo herring the best(as of now)

what id lie to know is if they can lower the quality without us knowing... like can they keep the ingredients the same, but use lower quality meats? and not even mention it?
i assume canidae or TOTW doesnt have the best cuts of meat since it is cheaper...and i assume evo has better cuts. can P AND G use TOTW style cuts of meats without making notice of it on the ingredients list as long as they uise the same amounts and types of meats?

i definitely see that happening. NO WAY IS EVO STAYING THE SAME.

i guarantee orijen will sell out one day. there;s only so long that they can serve fresh wild boar.....


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## luvMyBRT

I am still so upset about this.....GRRRRRRRRR. 

So do you think Innova will be okay for a few more months? I am thinking I'll still start the puppy on this and then after a few bags then switch. 

I am also wondering what exactly P&G can do without us knowing.....?? Change the formula? Start using ingredients with ethoxyquin?


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## PUNKem733

RCTRIPLEFRESH5 said:


> well im really upset cause i was looking forward to feeding evo herring..now im stuck with either canidae grain free or orijen red...and orijen red is EXPENSIVE..prolly more than evo herring and i like evo herring the best(as of now)
> 
> what id lie to know is if they can lower the quality without us knowing... like can they keep the ingredients the same, but use lower quality meats? and not even mention it?
> i assume canidae or TOTW doesnt have the best cuts of meat since it is cheaper...and i assume evo has better cuts. can P AND G use TOTW style cuts of meats without making notice of it on the ingredients list as long as they uise the same amounts and types of meats?
> 
> i definitely see that happening. NO WAY IS EVO STAYING THE SAME.
> 
> i guarantee orijen will sell out one day. there;s only so long that they can serve fresh wild boar.....


Well Champion has been what they are since the 70's I think, but they won't even make canned foods since they don't have the facilities for it, and they say they don't want to contract the work to another Co. So if a Co will rather not make extra money the easy way, then it would be hard for me to believe they'd sell out, but who knows. 


Also they could use lower quality ingredients and not tell anyone. As long as they are the same type of ingredients. But I'm sure they'll be sneaking in other garbage kinds of things in the food. They can charge that premium price for the name, and really cheapen the food up,


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## RCTRIPLEFRESH5

saraj2878 said:


> I am still so upset about this.....GRRRRRRRRR.
> 
> So do you think Innova will be okay for a few more months? I am thinking I'll still start the puppy on this and then after a few bags then switch.
> 
> I am also wondering what exactly P&G can do without us knowing.....?? Change the formula? Start using ingredients with ethoxyquin?


they can have the suppliers preserve the fish with ethoxyquin..the same suppliers they use for eukanuba. they can use meat that they ise in iams..all the cheap cuts for the lower foods im guessing. im so pissed.


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## RCTRIPLEFRESH5

THIS IS INTERESTING TO ME...

John May 3, 2010 at 5:39 pm

Some of you may be interested in seeing the Orijen and Evo factories. I couldn’t figure out how to post a picture, so I posted links to some Google Earth, “Street Views” of the Champion(Orijen) and Natura (Evo) factories. The Natura plant in Nebraska is a manicured show-place while the Champion plant in Alberta, Canada looks, for lack of a better word, “functional”. If you (click on one of the links below) copy the URL for each plant from below and paste it in the address area of your browser you will be taken to a picture where you are basically standing in the street in front of the factory. I’m not knocking Orijen/Champion (I feed it to my dog), but the pics show that Natura is a much more mature business.
NATURA
http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&sou...=fEyMBa4LOlRvAT51WnH0mQ&cbp=12,228.59,,0,1.44
ORIJENS
http://maps.google.com/maps?layer=c...l=37.0625,-95.677068&spn=0,78.1 34766&t=h&z=4

The miracles of modern web technology!

Have Fun,

John


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## PUNKem733

Yeah you got that from the dog food review site that saltydog showed us. It is stupid to take what's going on on the inside with how well their lawn is manicured. 

If you are getting info from other sites it's almost web etiquette to give us the link.


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## SaltyDog

By the end of this year, I believe we will all be in accordance that Orijen is the lone star king of the kibble.


I'd say it's safe to assume that production will remain at the Nebraska plant and that all 140 employees will keep their jobs. But I agree with all of you who are saying the ingredients may change to help the bottom line. I look for P&G to mass market the Natura line right into the big box pet stores (petco, petsmart....etc). Wellness is HUGE in this arena and I think P&G will take the Natura lines and go head to head with Wellness on all of their playing fields. 

I've seen this before and if history tells us anything, the brand one day will suffer. Wellness used to be on top of the world when it was a company owned boutique brand, as did Iams.

At least this aqusition gives us something to watch and talk about over the next 6 to 9 months :wink:


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## PUNKem733

SaltyDog said:


> *By the end of this year, I believe we will all be in accordance that Orijen is the lone star king of the kibble.*
> 
> 
> I'd say it's safe to assume that production will remain at the Nebraska plant and that all 140 employees will keep their jobs. But I agree with all of you who are saying the ingredients may change to help the bottom line. I look for P&G to mass market the Natura line right into the big box pet stores (petco, petsmart....etc). Wellness is HUGE in this arena and I think P&G will take the Natura lines and go head to head with Wellness on all of their playing fields.
> 
> I've seen this before and if history tells us anything, the brand one day will suffer. Wellness used to be on top of the world when it was a company owned boutique brand, as did Iams.
> 
> At least this aqusition gives us something to watch and talk about over the next 6 to 9 months :wink:



Well not me, Horizon is as good to me as Orijen, and current, or pre-PG Evo. It's sad that most overlook it.


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## RCTRIPLEFRESH5

SaltyDog said:


> By the end of this year, I believe we will all be in accordance that Orijen is the lone star king of the kibble.
> 
> 
> I'd say it's safe to assume that production will remain at the Nebraska plant and that all 140 employees will keep their jobs. But I agree with all of you who are saying the ingredients may change to help the bottom line. I look for P&G to mass market the Natura line right into the big box pet stores (petco, petsmart....etc). Wellness is HUGE in this arena and I think P&G will take the Natura lines and go head to head with Wellness on all of their playing fields.
> 
> I've seen this before and if history tells us anything, the brand one day will suffer. Wellness used to be on top of the world when it was a company owned boutique brand, as did Iams.
> 
> At least this aqusition gives us something to watch and talk about over the next 6 to 9 months :wink:


is your name eric? is saw a lot of posts on the orijen red rating page that sound like you hahaha. plus i saw a post about natura and P AND G, and most people on that part of this site aren't as up to date as us on the forum...i know i wasnt.



PUNKem733 said:


> Well not me, Horizon is as good to me as Orijen, and current, or pre-PG Evo. It's sad that most overlook it.


what';s this petcurean stuff i keep hearing about? horizon looks decent, but orijen is more readily available for me.


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## SaltyDog

PUNKem733 said:


> Well not me, Horizon is as good to me as Orijen, and current, or pre-PG Evo. It's sad that most overlook it.



I agree with you that Horizon is a good, nutritious and company owned dog food....but would it kill 'em to put a FULL nutritional analysis on the website? To me, this is almost a requirement in the Ultra Premium Kibble sector. I believe Champion and Natura are the only companies that provide this info in full detail.


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## RCTRIPLEFRESH5

their NOW adult looks lie a pretty lame grain free formula...26 percent protein?

looks like more potato than meat.GUARANTEED ANALYSIS

*not recognized as an essential nutrient by the A.A.F.C.O. dog food nutrient profile.

Crude Protein (min) 26% 

Available in 1 lb, 6 lb & 25lb bags
Crude Fat (min) 16%
Crude Fiber (max) 4%
Moisture (max) 10%
Calcium (min) 1.2%
Phosphorus (min) .8%
*Omega 6 Fatty Acids (min) 2.5%
*Omega 3 Fatty Acids (min) .5%



INGREDIENTS

De-boned turkey, potato flour, pea, apple, whole dried egg, pea fibre, tomato, potato, flaxseed, canola oil (preserved with mixed tocopherols, a source of Vitamin E) , natural flavors, salmon, de-boned duck, sun dried alfalfa, coconut oil (preserved with mixed tocopherols, a source of Vitamin E), carrots, pumpkin, bananas, blueberries, cranberries, raspberries, blackberries, papaya, pineapple, grapefruit, lentil beans, broccoli, spinach, cottage cheese, alfalfa sprouts, dried kelp, flaxseed, calcium carbonate, dicalcium phosphate, lecithin, sodium chloride, potassium chloride, vitamins: ( vitamin E supplement, L-ascorbyl-2-polyphosphate (source of vit. C), niacin, inositol, vitamin A supplement, thiamine mononitrate, d-calcium pantothenate, pyridoxine hydrochloride, riboflavin, beta-carotene, vitamin D3 supplement, folic acid, biotin, vitamin B12 supplement) , minerals: (zinc proteinate, ferrous sulfate, zinc oxide, iron proteinate, copper sulfate, copper proteinate, manganese proteinate, manganous oxide, calcium iodate, sodium selenite), taurine, DL-methionine, L-Lysine, chicory root extract, lactobacillus acidophilus, lactobacillus casei, enterococcus faecium, bifido bacterium thermophilum, dried aspergillus niger fermentation extract, dried aspergillus oryzae fermentation extract, yeast extract, yucca schidigera extract, marigold extract, garlic powder, L-carnitine, dried rosemary.


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## PUNKem733

Petcurean Pet Nutrition

There you go.


I wouldn't use it. Not enough protein, and the ingredient list doesn't look that great.


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## PUNKem733

SaltyDog said:


> I agree with you that Horizon is a good, nutritious and company owned dog food....but would it kill 'em to put a FULL nutritional analysis on the website? To me, this is almost a requirement in the Ultra Premium Kibble sector. I believe Champion and Natura are the only companies that provide this info in full detail.


Yeah I'm with you on that.


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## malluver1005

I told me friend I would ask here. She uses EVO and was asking me if she buys two or three more EVO bags tomorrow, will she be OK? She doesn't want P&G products.


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## CorgiPaws

malluver1005 said:


> I told me friend I would ask here. She uses EVO and was asking me if she buys two or three more EVO bags tomorrow, will she be OK? She doesn't want P&G products.


My best guess is YES. 
But i'd act quick, I expect evo to simply FLY off the shelves as news spreads as people try to stock up!!


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## SaltyDog

malluver1005 said:


> I told me friend I would ask here. She uses EVO and was asking me if she buys two or three more EVO bags tomorrow, will she be OK? She doesn't want P&G products.



Absolutely. The aquisition is at least one month away. Even after P&G takes over, it will be at least 5 or 6 months before anything different would happen.


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## PUNKem733

malluver1005 said:


> I told me friend I would ask here. She uses EVO and was asking me if she buys two or three more EVO bags tomorrow, will she be OK? She doesn't want P&G products.


I think we'll be ok picking up Evo for 1-3 months. Right now all the supply on shelves is Pre PG.


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## whiteleo

Yeah, I probably wouldn't feed the dog food line of petcurean with the protein levels so low, but what I can't understand is why they make a cat line with 50% protein and then give the dogs such a low protein line.


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## PUNKem733

whiteleo said:


> Yeah, I probably wouldn't feed the dog food line of petcurean with the protein levels so low, but what I can't understand is why they make a cat line with 50% protein and then give the dogs such a low protein line.



I think it's cause Cats are completely carnivorous, and dogs aren't. Maybe they think dogs don't need that much, I wouldn't put it past a Co to think that way, but who knows.


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## SaltyDog

whiteleo said:


> Yeah, I probably wouldn't feed the dog food line of petcurean with the protein levels so low, but what I can't understand is why they make a cat line with 50% protein and then give the dogs such a low protein line.



I'm not versed in feline nutrition at all, but those companies that make both canine and feline nutrition, I've noticed that felinie nutrition is very high in protein and very high in calories and high in taurine.


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## luvMyBRT

PUNKem733 said:


> I think we'll be ok picking up Evo for 1-3 months. Right now all the supply on shelves is Pre PG.


I am thinking the same thing. I am going to try to get 2 or 3 bags of the Innova Large Breed Puppy in the next month or so. Once I'm through those bags I'll switch. I'm liking the Horizon Large Breed Puppy....and the price isn't too bad either. I can get a 30lb for about $52.00 on k9cuisine.com and they have free shipping on any order over $50.


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## PUNKem733

saraj2878 said:


> I am thinking the same thing. I am going to try to get 2 or 3 bags of the Innova Large Breed Puppy in the next month or so. Once I'm through those bags I'll switch. I'm liking the Horizon Large Breed Puppy....and the price isn't too bad either. I can get a 30lb for about $52.00 on k9cuisine.com and they have free shipping on any order over $50.



That is where I get my Horizon also, get me 10 free samples, and I always get at least $50 of stuff.


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## RCTRIPLEFRESH5

the petcurean list looks horrible..it looks like 0 meat... i mean honestly the first ingridient is a water invlusive emat than potatoes fiber.... i dont see any meat meals...it might be grain free potato chips....


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## PUNKem733

Go Natural Grain Free Dog Food

Their grain free Endurance line looks MUCH, MUCH better than any of their other foods.

Turkey Meal, Chicken Meal, de-boned Chicken, Russett Potato, Chicken Fat (preserved with mixed tocopherols (vit. E), Whole Dried Egg, Salmon Meal, Apple, Peas, Natural Flavour, Tomato Pomace, Duck Meal, Salmon Oil, Flax Seed Oil, Yeast Extract, Potassium Chloride, Taurine, Choline Chloride, Pumpkin, Carrots, Bananas, Blueberries, Cranberries, Lentil Beans, Broccoli, Spinach, Cottage Cheese, Alfalfa Sprouts, Chicory Root Extract, Lactobacillus Acidophilus, Lactobacillus Casei, Enterococcus Faecium, Bifido-bacterium Thermophilum, dried Aspergillus Niger Fermentation Extract, dried Aspergillus Oryzae Fermentation Extract, Vitamins (vit. E, vit. C, niacin, inositol, vit. A, thiamine mononitrate, d-calcium pantothenate, pyridoxine hydrochloride, riboflavin, beta-carotene, vit. D3, folic acid, biotin, vit. B12), Minerals (zinc proteinate, copper sulfate, copper proteinate, manganese proteinate, manganous oxide, calcium iodate, sodium selenite), Ascorbyl-polyphosphate, Garlic Powder, Yucca Schidigera Extract, Dried Rosemary.

Crude Protein (min) 34% 
Crude Fat (min) 16%
Crude Fiber (max) 4%
Moisture (max) 10%
Calcium (min) 1.8%
Phosphorus (min) 1.2%
*Omega 6 Fatty Acids (min) 3%
*Omega 3 Fatty Acids (min) 0.5%


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## buddy97

Horizon really makes a nice grainless food (Legacy) and i like that it doesnt use potato. the real problems i see with them are:

-they need to expand the grainless line...it is pretty limited.
-they have very little presence in the usa...hopefully, they will expand their retailer network.


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## SaltyDog

buddy97 said:


> Horizon really makes a nice grainless food (Legacy) and i like that it doesnt use potato. the real problems i see with them are:
> 
> -they need to expand the grainless line...it is pretty limited.
> -they have very little presence in the usa...hopefully, they will expand their retailer network.



- and they need a FULL nutritent analysis posted on the wesite and on the bag.


My only other issue with Horizon, and it's not huge, but still.....why do they add salt?


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## m&mluvpugs

say i was to stock up on food before the switch, how long would the bags be good for? might be a silly question, but can you freeze kibble?? 
it takes us about 2 months to go through the medium sized bag. 
tia


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## kevin bradley

RCTRIPLEFRESH5 said:


> now im pissed off.
> 
> love to hear kevin bradleys response to this lol.


RC,

Well, it's sad day and seeing this post almost brought tears to my eyes....

It's all Acana and Orijen now, until they sell out. 

I may load up on EVO...believe I can get at least a year's worth without having product go aged. 

There are days when I truly think Capitalism is pure evil. This isn't about our Dogs. It's all about money and the fight for more and more and more. 

Trust me on this because I live it every day....6 months from now, there will be 23 cost savings meetings in Cincinnatti HQ where 48 different analysts will spot all the costly ingredients in EVO....and they will all get promotions for their great devotion to the Monster. Before you know it, EVO's first ingredients will be Corn and Pig Guts. 

My only hope is that Tide is still a good laundry detergent. Maybe this won't turn out so bad.


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## kevin bradley

m&mluvpugs said:


> say i was to stock up on food before the switch, how long would the bags be good for? might be a silly question, but can you freeze kibble??
> it takes us about 2 months to go through the medium sized bag.
> tia


M and M,

Most of the food I just bought from PFD and Hearty PET had about a year left of life. 

Not sure if thats always the case though. 

You are going to have to see the expiration date firsthand or make sure you write the online stores and ask....both Hearty and PFD were very quick to respond when I asked for the amount of life on each.


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## Penny & Maggie's Mom

I've actually fed the NOW adult food with outstanding results. I had it analyzed by a canine nutritionist with good results. The potato flour is used as a binder to hold the kibble together like the tapioca found in NV. It is 30% carbs ( she also had it lab analyzed). Not all dogs can handle the high protein foods. If you believe the proof is in the pudding.... the berner breeder who recommended it to me, has dogs routinely living to 12 years old. That's pretty amazing for berners whose average life span is 8. BTW, my goldens are in glorious abundant coat, perfect lab work, clean teeth, lean and firm, and full of energy. I can't say they fared as well on Acana.


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## 1605

*Slow down, cowboy...*

Aren't we getting a little ahead of ourselves with the sky is falling talk? 

At this point in time all we know is that EVO was bought by another company. Anything else is pure speculation & fear-mongering.

Take a deep breath.


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## buddy97

SubMariner said:


> Aren't we getting a little ahead of ourselves with the sky is falling talk?
> 
> At this point in time all we know is that EVO was bought by another company. Anything else is pure speculation & fear-mongering.
> 
> Take a deep breath.


history has proven time and time again that when independent dog food manufacturers get gobbled up by these huge conglomerates the product WILL eventually change for the sake of maximizing profits for said conglomerate...its not a matter of if, but when Natura products will begin their downturn.

im happy to see people drop their products asap to send a message to other manufacturers who arent currently controlled by huge conglomerates.


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## kevin bradley

SubMariner said:


> Aren't we getting a little ahead of ourselves with the sky is falling talk?
> 
> At this point in time all we know is that EVO was bought by another company. Anything else is pure speculation & fear-mongering.
> 
> Take a deep breath.





Well, there is ONE way to prove whether our fears are real or imagined. 

Anyone got an ingredient list from Iams or Eukanuba prior to when P and G bought them? 

this will tell the whole story. 

If they messed up Iams(and I honestly don't know how Iams looked years ago), why would they not mess up Natura?

Corn ain't the first ingredient for no reason on all the crap foods. I'm not convinced that Corn is as lethally destructive as some say...especially when its far down the ingredient list....however, as the first or second ingredient which is typically is...tells me ONE thing-MONEY SAVINGS and more PROFIT without any care in the world for our Dogs.


----------



## DaneMama

I couldn't find a before and after P&G ingredient list, but I did find this website (I know its PETA based but they do prove that this isn't a great operation and for that alone I wouldn't buy their food regardless of what happens to be in it).

IamsCruelty.com


----------



## wags

UGH! I just had the 4 bags I bought of EVO recently when that's up well guess that is that! I was thinking of getting Natura if the ingredients did not change but now UGH! Guess I will just have to think long and hard about this now! This is just another glitch in the system! What the heck did Natura do. It has to be the economy being so bad now that they just couldn't keep up with being an independent company. It couldn't be supply and demand I hope! But Proctor and Gamble come on! This is really not good at all! The article states that The makers of IAMS and PUKEANUBA want to reach more consumers in more parts of the world more completely.Ummm Now I am starting to wonder what's up with this marketing technique. Just another money making ploy seems like. Oh well there goes a great independent company down the tubes to the big marketers. I guess this is so long to Natura then . I don't think I will now be buying this at all. I at first thought I would if it was the same ingredients now with really reading into the article deeply umm No thanks!:frown:


----------



## kevin bradley

you know....everything will be contingent upon how much money they can make. 

If they do one of their stupid marketing studies and they discover there is a profitable niche market for truly premium food, they may not change a thing. 

The issue w/ them overhauling the Innova/EVO/Cal Natural lines is this....

People buying Innova/EVO are seriously educated buyers. You don't drive 30 miles out of your way to pay $60 for a bag of food if you haven't done quite a bit of research. Compared to the average Dog Food user, we are the informed....the elites of Dog Food buyers if you will. They may come to realize that they cannot alter the ingredient list one bit without us noticing....and they MAY leave things alone. MAYBE. HOPEFULLY. 

But on the other hand, if some dumbass MBA intern at P and G does a study that says they can leave the EVO name on the bag, fill it with corn and guts, get distribution in Wal Mart, add 10% to the bottom line....don't be fooled...they will do it in a heartbeat. And like I said, someone will get promoted for wrecking the brand.


----------



## 1605

kevin bradley said:


> you know....everything will be contingent upon how much money they can make.
> 
> If they do one of their stupid marketing studies and they discover there is a profitable niche market for truly premium food, they may not change a thing.
> 
> The issue w/ them overhauling the Innova/EVO/Cal Natural lines is this....
> 
> People buying Innova/EVO are seriously educated buyers. You don't drive 30 miles out of your way to pay $60 for a bag of food if you haven't done quite a bit of research. Compared to the average Dog Food user, we are the informed....the elites of Dog Food buyers if you will. They may come to realize that they cannot alter the ingredient list one bit without us noticing....and they MAY leave things alone.


They are smart enough to realize that this particular brand has a particular following for those very reasons. And if they don't, then they'll LOSE customers, won't they?

Like most people here who care about what their dog eats, I will be keeping my eye on the EVO contents. If they change for the worse, you can bet your sweet bippy that we'll be moving to a different brand!


----------



## 1605

buddy97 said:


> history has proven time and time again that when independent dog food manufacturers get gobbled up by these huge conglomerates the product WILL eventually change for the sake of maximizing profits for said conglomerate...its not a matter of if, but when Natura products will begin their downturn.
> 
> im happy to see people drop their products asap to send a message to other manufacturers who arent currently controlled by huge conglomerates.


How is "drop[ping] their products asap" going to "send a message to other manufacturers who arent [sic] currently controlled by huge conglomerates"? 

The only reason to "drop their products" is if they change the product!


----------



## ziggy29

SubMariner said:


> Aren't we getting a little ahead of ourselves with the sky is falling talk?
> 
> At this point in time all we know is that EVO was bought by another company. Anything else is pure speculation & fear-mongering.


Yes, we don't know for sure that the huge conglomerate will cut corners on quality or outsource food production to nations with dirt-cheap labor, but the track record for that sort of thing is pretty solid in these megacorps.

I'll be shocked if the formulation remains the same and they use the current production facility years into the future.

Plus, a lot of animal lovers simply despise P&G as a business as it relates to animal testing and other social issues, and would stop using this food even if nothing changed because of the new ownership.


----------



## DaneMama

SubMariner said:


> How is "drop[ping] their products asap" going to "send a message to other manufacturers who arent [sic] currently controlled by huge conglomerates"?
> 
> The only reason to "drop their products" is if they change the product!


Its not all about the contents. Sure a huge part of why people look at the ingredient list in dog foods is to make sure what they buy is quality. But lets all remember that it isn't just about ingredients...its about where the food is made and how its manufactured. GUARANTEED these products will change, maybe not in their ingredient list, but definitely in the way that its made. Morals and ethics are almost just as important to me as ingredients.

Not to mention P&G and Iams are known to do horrid animal testing trials to test their products. Not necessarily the kind of business I would want to support.


----------



## kevin bradley

SubMariner said:


> They are smart enough to realize that this particular brand has a particular following for those very reasons. And if they don't, then they'll LOSE customers, won't they?
> 
> Like most people here who care about what their dog eats, I will be keeping my eye on the EVO contents. If they change for the worse, you can bet your sweet bippy that we'll be moving to a different brand!



uhumm, I believe thats what I said. 

HOWEVER you need to understand an important point.....it's NEVER about how many customers they will lose. It's about how many net sales they will end up with...they could lose a million customers as long as they can drive costs to the floor and show Wall Street a higher EPS quarterly number. 

P and G don't care if they sell to the deaf, dumb and blind(no offense to these folks, merely a figure of speech)...as long as they will profit, they will rape, pillage and destroy that brand. 

NOTE-profits are important and I'm sure even Orijen and Acana understand profitability. But there should be something more. At least I hope so. I wish. 

Summary...I hope whatever analysis they do says to them that HEALTHY is indeed the most profitable. For Dogs sake.


----------



## RCTRIPLEFRESH5

kevin bradley said:


> uhumm, I believe thats what I said.
> 
> HOWEVER you need to understand an important point.....it's NEVER about how many customers they will lose. It's about how many net sales they will end up with...they could lose a million customers as long as they can drive costs to the floor and show Wall Street a higher EPS quarterly number.
> 
> P and G don't care if they sell to the deaf, dumb and blind(no offense to these folks, merely a figure of speech)...as long as they will profit, they will rape, pillage and destroy that brand.
> 
> NOTE-profits are important and I'm sure even Orijen and Acana understand profitability. But there should be something more. At least I hope so. I wish.
> 
> Summary...I hope whatever analysis they do says to them that HEALTHY is indeed the most profitable. For Dogs sake.


for us on this forum its mot about the cost of the food. we dont care how much it costs, we just want a good food. iwas willing to pay 75 for evo herring...now they dont even give us the choice to spend a lot of money on agood food....cause the good is not existent anymore!


----------



## RCTRIPLEFRESH5

kevin bradley said:


> you know....everything will be contingent upon how much money they can make.
> 
> If they do one of their stupid marketing studies and they discover there is a profitable niche market for truly premium food, they may not change a thing.
> 
> The issue w/ them overhauling the Innova/EVO/Cal Natural lines is this....
> 
> People buying Innova/EVO are seriously educated buyers. You don't drive 30 miles out of your way to pay $60 for a bag of food if you haven't done quite a bit of research. Compared to the average Dog Food user, we are the informed....the elites of Dog Food buyers if you will. They may come to realize that they cannot alter the ingredient list one bit without us noticing....and they MAY leave things alone. MAYBE. HOPEFULLY.
> 
> But on the other hand, if some dumbass MBA intern at P and G does a study that says they can leave the EVO name on the bag, fill it with corn and guts, get distribution in Wal Mart, add 10% to the bottom line....don't be fooled...they will do it in a heartbeat. And like I said, someone will get promoted for wrecking the brand.


a lot of people buy evo based on reccomendations also, so they may not be as super smart as us geniuses =p.

alsoi am horrified to say that i just read they can change the ingrideints list 6 months before changing the labels....


----------



## kevin bradley

RCTRIPLEFRESH5 said:


> for us on this forum its mot about the cost of the food. we dont care how much it costs, we just want a good food. iwas willing to pay 75 for evo herring...now they dont even give us the choice to spend a lot of money on agood food....cause the good is not existent anymore!


True. Exactly. 

but honestly RC, I bet we are less than 5% of the masses in terms of how we buy Dog Food. 

I have yet to meet someone out of the blue who would even recognize the brand EVO or ORIJEN. 99% would think you are feeding a stellar food if you said Iams or Science Diet. 

We still have some options. All is not lost yet.


----------



## ziggy29

RCTRIPLEFRESH5 said:


> for us on this forum its mot about the cost of the food. we dont care how much it costs, we just want a good food. iwas willing to pay 75 for evo herring...


True, but I think the vast majority of dog food buyers (outside this board) associate quality with price and marketing. _ "It's marketed as premium and it costs more, so it must be better, right?"_ At the very high end for educated buyers who want the very best for their dog, that is usually true. Historically that's included EVO.

However, outside of this board, stuff like Nutro and Iams (and others) are sold to the masses in big box pet stores as "premium" brands when they cost twice as much per pound as something like Kirkland (which, while not among the "top" foods, is far better than most "mainstream premium" foods at a much lower price).

I think most people who buy the very high end foods tend to keep an eye on the ingredients and know what they are buying (as opposed to those buying the mainstream so-called "premium" foods). So in the very high end of the market with well-informed consumers, I don't think they could significantly cheapen the ingredients and use a different formula and keep their customers. Iams or Nutro or SD probably could, but not foods like EVO or Orijen.

But there is still the potential social backlash to be concerned about. I hope P&G expects to lose some sales from that aspect alone. If they don't see that happening, then their marketing folks need to be fired. Dog lovers tend to be passionate about animal causes -- and P&G isn't one of the more "loved" corporations where that issue is concerned.


----------



## kevin bradley

ziggy29 said:


> True, but I think the vast majority of dog food buyers (outside this board) associate quality with price and marketing. _ "It's marketed as premium and it costs more, so it must be better, right?"_ At the very high end for educated buyers who want the very best for their dog, that is usually true. Historically that's included EVO.
> 
> However, outside of this board, stuff like Nutro and Iams (and others) are sold to the masses in big box pet stores as "premium" brands when they cost twice as much per pound as something like Kirkland (which, while not among the "top" foods, is far better than most "mainstream premium" foods at a much lower price).
> 
> I think most people who buy the very high end foods tend to keep an eye on the ingredients and know what they are buying (as opposed to those buying the mainstream so-called "premium" foods). So in the very high end of the market with well-informed consumers, I don't think they could significantly cheapen the ingredients and use a different formula and keep their customers. Iams or Nutro or SD probably could, but not foods like EVO or Orijen.
> 
> But there is still the potential social backlash to be concerned about. I hope P&G expects to lose some sales from that aspect alone. If they don't see that happening, then their marketing folks need to be fired. Dog lovers tend to be passionate about animal causes -- and P&G isn't one of the more "loved" corporations where that issue is concerned.


You know what guys....before its all over, we may all be feeding Diamond foods. 

At least with Diamond, they are already a huge company and they still offer foods that at are good from a label perspective....

Hey RC, who knows, Diamond may be our top option soon.


----------



## CorgiPaws

As Natalie touched on already, most of why this is so devistating has nothing to do with the ingredients, it's about reliability and dependability of the company producing the food. It plays a major role. 

There's a REASON Natura isn't effected in every recall known to man. They supervise production and test the final product TO KEEP OUR PETS SAFE. P&G doesn't do such practices because those things cost money. At the very least, we will see this supervision and testing ended (hey, cuts labor right down, right?) TO KEEP THEIR WALLETS FAT. Natura and P&G are two companies with two motives. One cared about our pets welfare (apparently it had a price on it though) and one cares about dominating the market and making a quick buck. 

This quote in the article really rubbed me the wrong way:


> "It's time for the right company to take our brands to the next level of growth. P&G is that company," said John Rademakers, founder and owner of Natura Pet Products. "We know that P&G will *honor our history *as they capitalize on their strengths to build these brands."


I feel like it recognized that Natura has had far better business practices than P&G. To me, this says "Well, hope they don't turn our food into crap like theirs!"

Keep in mind folks, they aren't going to do a sudden formula overhaul. We'll se subtle changes. "Meat and Bone Meal" will pop up in Evo. Another grain or two will pop up in Innova. Corn will wiggle its way into California Natural. Consumers unaware of anything beyond ingredients will stick to these foods after subtle changes like that. 
Then a few more years down the road, Chicken By Product meal will slither into the Evo ingredients, Corn will pop up in Innova, and Wheat will find its place in California natural. 

Before we know it, these brands will be on the shelf right next to Iams at your local Wal Mart, and with the same level of quality, too.


----------



## kevin bradley

CorgiPaws said:


> As Natalie touched on already, most of why this is so devistating has nothing to do with the ingredients, it's about reliability and dependability of the company producing the food. It plays a major role.
> 
> There's a REASON Natura isn't effected in every recall known to man. They supervise production and test the final product TO KEEP OUR PETS SAFE. P&G doesn't do such practices because those things cost money. At the very least, we will see this supervision and testing ended (hey, cuts labor right down, right?) TO KEEP THEIR WALLETS FAT. Natura and P&G are two companies with two motives. One cared about our pets welfare (apparently it had a price on it though) and one cares about dominating the market and making a quick buck.
> 
> This quote in the article really rubbed me the wrong way:
> 
> I feel like it recognized that Natura has had far better business practices than P&G. To me, this ways "Well, hope they don't turn our food into crap like theirs!"
> 
> Keep in mind folks, they aren't going to do a sudden formula overhaul. We'll se subtle changes. "Meat and Bone Meal" will pop up in Evo. Another grain or two will pop up in Innova. Corn will wiggle its way into California Natural. Consumers unaware of anything beyond ingredients will stick to these foods after subtle changes like that.
> Then a few more years down the road, Chicken By Product meal will slither into the Evo ingredients, Corn will pop up in Innova, and Wheat will find its place in California natural.
> 
> Before we know it, these brands will be on the shelf right next to Iams at your local Wal Mart, and with the same level of quality, too.




Linsey, I agree with everything you are saying. 

But their ethical standards self destructing are probably a foregone conclusion at this point. 

All we can hope for is some allegiance to their ingredients...IE-Corn not taking over the ingredient list. 


About all we got now. Natura as we KNEW it is all done.


----------



## RCTRIPLEFRESH5

kevin bradley said:


> Linsey, I agree with everything you are saying.
> 
> But their ethical standards self destructing are probably a foregone conclusion at this point.
> 
> All we can hope for is some allegiance to their ingredients...IE-Corn not taking over the ingredient list.
> 
> 
> About all we got now. Natura as we KNEW it is all done.


LOL!!! I should go to all my local stores and buy 100 bags of evo...in a few months i can sell them on ebay and be a millionaire loll!!!!!!!!!!!!!(once the formula goes to garbage)


----------



## SaltyDog

buddy97 said:


> *anyone who thinks you will be getting the same quality product just because the ingredient list looks the same is in fantasyland.*



It's Wellness all over again :frown:


----------



## ruckusluvr

kevin bradley said:


> You know what guys....before its all over, we may all be feeding Diamond foods.
> 
> At least with Diamond, they are already a huge company and they still offer foods that at are good from a label perspective....
> 
> Hey RC, who knows, Diamond may be our top option soon.


I am happy feeding Diamond foods.
but they had a recall (no idea when, before i had dogs). sadly some pets died. but i think maybe that could happen with any dog food company. wasnt the recall due to contaminated corn? and it seems like most Diamond feeds do not have corn in them any longer. any company i guess could get a hold of a moldy grain and not realize it. Diamond says that they do 151 checks on the food before sending it out. i am not sure what that even means, but it makes me feel better about buying it. 

of course, i dont feel you can 100% trust any dog food company. 

back in the day, a few years back when they had the Menu foods recall... i was feeding Ruckus Natural Balance. A small company at the time (if i am not mistaken) and a higher end food. (not anymore, ingredient list is crap now) and i was SHOCKED when i found out that the venison and rice formula was recalled. that is what my Ruckus was eating. there were very few ingredients in natural balance venison and rice at the time. i thought it was the best i could give him.
Since then i have felt like a recall can happen to any dog food company.


----------



## PUNKem733

SaltyDog said:


> It's Wellness all over again :frown:


Why's that?


----------



## RCTRIPLEFRESH5

PUNKem733 said:


> Go Natural Grain Free Dog Food
> 
> Their grain free Endurance line looks MUCH, MUCH better than any of their other foods.
> 
> Turkey Meal, Chicken Meal, de-boned Chicken, Russett Potato, Chicken Fat (preserved with mixed tocopherols (vit. E), Whole Dried Egg, Salmon Meal, Apple, Peas, Natural Flavour, Tomato Pomace, Duck Meal, Salmon Oil, Flax Seed Oil, Yeast Extract, Potassium Chloride, Taurine, Choline Chloride, Pumpkin, Carrots, Bananas, Blueberries, Cranberries, Lentil Beans, Broccoli, Spinach, Cottage Cheese, Alfalfa Sprouts, Chicory Root Extract, Lactobacillus Acidophilus, Lactobacillus Casei, Enterococcus Faecium, Bifido-bacterium Thermophilum, dried Aspergillus Niger Fermentation Extract, dried Aspergillus Oryzae Fermentation Extract, Vitamins (vit. E, vit. C, niacin, inositol, vit. A, thiamine mononitrate, d-calcium pantothenate, pyridoxine hydrochloride, riboflavin, beta-carotene, vit. D3, folic acid, biotin, vit. B12), Minerals (zinc proteinate, copper sulfate, copper proteinate, manganese proteinate, manganous oxide, calcium iodate, sodium selenite), Ascorbyl-polyphosphate, Garlic Powder, Yucca Schidigera Extract, Dried Rosemary.
> 
> Crude Protein (min) 34%
> Crude Fat (min) 16%
> Crude Fiber (max) 4%
> Moisture (max) 10%
> Calcium (min) 1.8%
> Phosphorus (min) 1.2%
> *Omega 6 Fatty Acids (min) 3%
> *Omega 3 Fatty Acids (min) 0.5%


punk you were saying you don't feed petcurean due to their low protein and not so great ingredient list. i think this ingredient list looks as good as horizon. i would definitely feed this.looks better than canidae.
just curious what is the point in eggs ? i see some foods using them,and some not? what are they used for???


----------



## CorgiPaws

RCTRIPLEFRESH5 said:


> just curious what is the point in eggs ? i see some foods using them,and some not? what are they used for???


Eggs are a great "animal" protein source, and are a great thing to feed dogs in reasonable moderation. 
I've read that too much can lead to biotin deficiency. I give my dogs a couple eggs a week, and all is well.


----------



## PUNKem733

RCTRIPLEFRESH5 said:


> punk you were saying you don't feed petcurean due to their low protein and not so great ingredient list. i think this ingredient list looks as good as horizon. i would definitely feed this.looks better than canidae.
> just curious what is the point in eggs ? i see some foods using them,and some not? what are they used for???


Did you read my post?? I said that food I mentioned was great compared to their other foods. 

As good as Horizon Legacy, I think not, but damn good non the less.


----------



## wags

This is just sad again I have been reading so many heartbreaking stories ! Well here are some of the heartbreaking heartwrenching P&G take over ~ just bad news is all anyone can say! again! 

Petfinder.com forums :: View topic - P&G buys Natura Pet Products  [ ]

P&G Acquires Natura Pet Products -- CINCINNATI, May 5, 2010 /PRNewswire-FirstCall/ --

Proctor and gamble to purchase Natura/Innova pet products.? - Yahoo! Answers

Procter & Gamble To Buy Natura Pet Products

Natura of Davis bought by Procter & Gamble - Sacramento Business Journal:

Procter & Gamble to Acquire Natura Pet Products - DailyFinance


----------



## PUNKem733

There are a couple of answers in the Yahoo answers link you provided that state Natura is going to remain a separate entity from P&G, that all the normal natura processes will still be implemented. Someone mentioned that the owners of Natura are into their 70's and it was time for them to retire, so they were going to have to sell it anyway.


----------



## SaltyDog

PUNKem733 said:


> Why's that?



Wellness used to be the king of the boutiques waaaaaay back in the day. Now, all of their food is outsourced, ingredients have changed and quality has diminished.

They built the brand and built your trust....sold out, but the Wellness name was so huge it didn't matter. Now you see them in all the big box stores. It's the same for Natura. They've built the brand and built your trust. So we'll see if they head down the same road as Wellness.


----------



## ruckusluvr

i was not aware that Wellness was a "bad" food. maybe a bit grain heavy


----------



## CorgiPaws

ruckusluvr said:


> i was not aware that Wellness was a "bad" food. maybe a bit grain heavy


It's ot a bad food. Just not as good as it once was.


----------



## SaltyDog

ruckusluvr said:


> i was not aware that Wellness was a "bad" food. maybe a bit grain heavy



Corgi said it correct.....it isn't a "bad" food, but it was definitely great back in the day.


----------



## PUNKem733

SaltyDog said:


> Corgi said it correct.....it isn't a "bad" food, but it was definitely great back in the day.


Anyone know if the ingredient list changed, or did it stay the same but the ingredients are of lower quality? Anyone have a before and after ingredient list? Damn cause I found Core at a local petco, and was shocked that they carried it. I was gonna add it to the rotation.


----------



## SaltyDog

There is absolutely nothing wrong with feeding core....Unfortunately, the manufacturing practices of Wellness dog food are not what they once were, when Wellness owned the facility and made it all themselves. This then leads to questionable sources of ingredients, and as someone already stated, the Super 5 line has gotten grain heavy.

But think about it, how can we be so sure that Orijen is all it says it is? I feed it....dogs love it and look fantastic....and it has developed a good reputation. But how do we really know?

Core ingredients read out well. The price of Core in my area is $59 for a 26lb bag. Orijen Adult is $60 for a 29.7lb bag

Core Ocean is $68 for a 26lb bag....Orijen 6 Fish is $70 for a 29.7lb bag.

If it were 10 bucks a bag cheaper, I'd possibly look at it, but per pound it is more than Orijen. Nuff said.


----------



## xxshaelxx

kevin bradley said:


> People buying Innova/EVO are seriously educated buyers. You don't drive 30 miles out of your way to pay $60 for a bag of food if you haven't done quite a bit of research. Compared to the average Dog Food user, we are the informed....the elites of Dog Food buyers if you will.





RCTRIPLEFRESH5 said:


> a lot of people buy evo based on reccomendations also, so they may not be as super smart as us geniuses =p.
> 
> alsoi am horrified to say that i just read they can change the ingrideints list 6 months before changing the labels....


I don't know. I have to agree with RTF here. Some people are, like, "I want to feed my dog the best. What's the best?" And when someone says "Evo," they'll just buy it, no questions asked. I know that's what I did. I think there are A LOT of people out there like that, and I'm sure there's a lot of people out there recommending Natura products who don't realize there's been a swap in ownership, and those people will buy it. Not only that, but with a bigger name, P & G can EASILY advertise, and when people see that, they'll ask about it, and those who don't know any better will go "Yeah, it's a great brand!"

*shrug.* Just my opinion.

Even if they don't change the ingredients, though, I would NEVER recommend a P & G product to ANYONE. -.- Too much shady crap in my opinion....


----------



## xxshaelxx

> atura is going to still make the food at their plant. This is going to be a independent entity. Meaning Natura will still have control over their product and no products from china! Owners of Natura are in the mid 70's and it was time for them to move on. I feed my 3 dogs EVO and my cat EVO. I to had concerns and that is why I called Natura yesterday. My pets love their product and I am going to stick with it.


Somehow...I highly doubt this. P & G won't consider the Natura products to be making enough money.


----------



## Penny & Maggie's Mom

buddy97 said:


> Horizon really makes a nice grainless food (Legacy) and i like that it doesnt use potato. the real problems i see with them are:
> 
> -they need to expand the grainless line...it is pretty limited.
> -they have very little presence in the usa...hopefully, they will expand their retailer network.



In looking at the Horizon site, (Horizon Pet Nutrition ) I see that salmon meal is included and nowhere can I find any mention of the fact that they or their supplier do NOT preserve with ethoxyquin. If I were interested in feeding this food, I would definitely call and make sure E is not used by them OR their suppliers. Most companies who are E free, state so on their site...... it's a huge selling point IMO.


----------



## PUNKem733

buddy97 said:


> please understand, this is the same line (in bold) that gets regurgitated EVERY time a conglomerate takes over an independent pet food manufacturer. slowly, but surely, the need to maximize profits as much as humanly possible takes over. suppliers/sources will change and quality control will eventually get degraded for the sake of said profits.
> 
> yes, the ingrediend LIST may look the same for a while, but id bet my left arm that the quality will not be the same a year from the takeover.


Yeah that's what I figured, I even went as far as to think it was a P&G corporate shill.


----------



## whiteleo

Foods confirmed to be ethoxyquin-free:

Innova
Evo
California Naturals
Blue Buffalo
By Nature
Flint River Ranch
Fromm
Merrick
Petcurean
Timberwolf
Wellness
Orijen
Acana
Nature’s Variety
Life’s Abundance
Halo (Spot’s Stew)
Horizon
Pinnacle
Canine Caviar
Eagle Pack
Evangers
Castor & Pollux
Evolve
Nature’s Logic
Grandma Mae’s
Ziwi Peak
Nature’s Logic


Foods confirmed to use ethoxyquin (should be avoided):


Diamond
Canidae
Chicken Soup for the Dog Lover’s Soul
Solid Gold
Artemis
Taste of the Wild
Iams
Eukanuba
Natural Balance
Hills
Premium Edge
Fosters & Smith
Nutro
Kirkland

When there are foods out there that are free from toxins, why feed food that could potentially harm your dog – when you have a choice?


----------



## Penny & Maggie's Mom

whiteleo said:


> Foods confirmed to be ethoxyquin-free:
> 
> Innova
> Evo
> California Naturals
> Blue Buffalo
> By Nature
> Flint River Ranch
> Fromm
> Merrick
> Petcurean
> Timberwolf
> Wellness
> Orijen
> Acana
> Nature’s Variety
> Life’s Abundance
> Halo (Spot’s Stew)
> Horizon
> Pinnacle
> Canine Caviar
> Eagle Pack
> Evangers
> Castor & Pollux
> Evolve
> Nature’s Logic
> Grandma Mae’s
> Ziwi Peak
> Nature’s Logic
> 
> 
> Foods confirmed to use ethoxyquin (should be avoided):
> 
> 
> Diamond
> Canidae
> Chicken Soup for the Dog Lover’s Soul
> Solid Gold
> Artemis
> Taste of the Wild
> Iams
> Eukanuba
> Natural Balance
> Hills
> Premium Edge
> Fosters & Smith
> Nutro
> Kirkland
> 
> When there are foods out there that are free from toxins, why feed food that could potentially harm your dog – when you have a choice?



OMG.... HAHAHAHAHA! And that's from my post from Dana! Sorry, senior moment!


----------



## Jordan S.

I sent them this email. I hope to get some kind of response, whether automated or individualized, I was want some answers out of them. 

"I'll I'm going to say is that your going to loose a LOT of customers because of this. EVO is from this point forward, no longer in my brand rotation, and I've alterted my innova-feeding friends and they bought another holistic brand and are transitioning. You promised to make sure manufacturing stayed inside YOUR doors and you obviously were not true to your word. Considering the pickiest of dog breeders and owners considered you the pioneer in quality control, that just tells me that no companies are to be trusted, theres no way pork necks and chicken backs can merge with a crap company so raw is where I'll be headed. 

So Thank You natura or proctor and gamble should I say, not the news I wanted to hear today as my day was crappy enough as it was."


----------



## harrkim120

xxshaelxx said:


> I don't know. I have to agree with RTF here. Some people are, like, "I want to feed my dog the best. What's the best?" And when someone says "Evo," they'll just buy it, no questions asked. I know that's what I did. I think there are A LOT of people out there like that, and I'm sure there's a lot of people out there recommending Natura products who don't realize there's been a swap in ownership, and those people will buy it. Not only that, but with a bigger name, P & G can EASILY advertise, and when people see that, they'll ask about it, and those who don't know any better will go "Yeah, it's a great brand!"


Working at a retail store, I would also agree with this. I have people asking me all the time what food I think is the best, and then when I tell them they'll just grab a bag and leave. Most don't care to know all the facts. I could say that Pedigree is the best and they'd be like "OK" and grab a bag and go. 

P&G will start advertising the crap out of these foods...people will see that they're "natural" and "holistic" and start buying. Honestly, this was a good move for Natura. I'm sure they got a whole lot from P&G for it. This was also a good move for P&G. They will make a whole lot from just the Innova and Evo name. However it is a sad thing for pet owners. Most will not know what's really happening to their foods, and their dogs will suffer from it. 

I hate companies that sell out.


----------



## kevin bradley

you guys could be right but maybe not. 

Look at our forum and the percentages against/for this whole thing....it's easily 10 to 1 in disfavor of the P and G thing. 

NO one buys EVO because they heard from someone it was a decent food. At least I don't think so. They buy EVO and ORIJEN because they did a crapload of research and found out how great the food is. 

I still think if someone just wants to feed a "good" food that is known by all, it will be Iams or Purina One or some other garbage. 

I really think PG is in such unchartered territory that this one may bite them hard if they mess with it at all. 

Filling EVO with garbage and marketing it everywhere just won't work. They've already got that category covered in IAMS.


----------



## ziggy29

kevin bradley said:


> NO one buys EVO because they heard from someone it was a decent food. At least I don't think so. They buy EVO and ORIJEN because they did a crapload of research and found out how great the food is.
> 
> I still think if someone just wants to feed a "good" food that is known by all, it will be Iams or Purina One or some other garbage.
> 
> I really think PG is in such unchartered territory that this one may bite them hard if they mess with it at all.
> 
> Filling EVO with garbage and marketing it everywhere just won't work. They've already got that category covered in IAMS.


Precisely so, and this is better stated than my attempt to do so earlier in the thread.

People who have bought EVO and Orijen and Acana are, almost without exception, people who have done their homework and research, and went out of their way to locate and buy the best food (more or less regardless of the cost). Many people order it online or drive a long way to find a place that carries it, because the ubiquitous big boxes don't.

Far more common are people who think they are buying the "best" premium foods, but instead of their own due diligence they rely on marketing and looking for the more expensive stuff in the big box pet stores (which is often considerably inferior to Kirkland at twice the price). The problem is, a lot of that food is garbage and most people don't know to make sure that meat is predominant among the main ingredients. They see the commercials, go to Petco and think they are getting "premium" pet food.

To any extent they sell more EVO because they lowered the price (and the quality) and marketed it to the big-box pet stores, they'd be losing their existing customers and new ones would just cannibalize sales of stuff like Iams. So in the end they lost some customers and produced "addition by subtraction" among other customers.

It seems to me it would be folly to cut corners on quality because this is not a brand for price-conscious consumers who are willing to accept compromised quality to save a couple bucks per bag. The market for EVO and those of its caliber are people who want the best and are willing to pay for it. But I suspect the big conglomerates and their suits will screw it up anyway. I really hope I'm wrong about that, but I doubt it.


----------



## ziggy29

ruckusluvr said:


> I am happy feeding Diamond foods.
> but they had a recall (no idea when, before i had dogs). sadly some pets died. but i think maybe that could happen with any dog food company. wasnt the recall due to contaminated corn? and it seems like most Diamond feeds do not have corn in them any longer. any company i guess could get a hold of a moldy grain and not realize it. Diamond says that they do 151 checks on the food before sending it out. i am not sure what that even means, but it makes me feel better about buying it.


Some of the Diamond foods do have adequate ingredient lists. 

But to my knowledge, all of the labels made by Diamond may contain ethoxyquin, which may be reason enough for many to steer clear of all their products.


----------



## SaltyDog

Jordan S. said:


> I sent them this email. I hope to get some kind of response, whether automated or individualized, I was want some answers out of them.
> 
> "I'll I'm going to say is that your going to loose a LOT of customers because of this. EVO is from this point forward, no longer in my brand rotation, and I've alterted my innova-feeding friends and they bought another holistic brand and are transitioning. You promised to make sure manufacturing stayed inside YOUR doors and you obviously were not true to your word. Considering the pickiest of dog breeders and owners considered you the pioneer in quality control, that just tells me that no companies are to be trusted, theres no way pork necks and chicken backs can merge with a crap company so raw is where I'll be headed.
> 
> So Thank You natura or proctor and gamble should I say, not the news I wanted to hear today as my day was crappy enough as it was."


I understand your concerns and am right there with ya.....but the Innova brand is about to boom. This line will make more money than ever now that it is owned by a company with mega deep pockets. You will see this food in all the big box pet food stores. Think about it, it's cheaper than Wellness and is the same price as Blue Buffalo, but employees will be taught how much better this food is than the rest.

The percentage lost by us few ultra premium boutique buyers is a pin dot to the number of buyers out there (petco shoppers) that don't research and just buy. Proctor and Gamble will gladly lose my business to gain 1000 new buyers. 

Also, I would assume since Natura had it's own state of the art facility, that the food would continue to be made there.


----------



## xxshaelxx

kevin bradley said:


> you guys could be right but maybe not.
> 
> Look at our forum and the percentages against/for this whole thing....it's easily 10 to 1 in disfavor of the P and G thing.
> 
> NO one buys EVO because they heard from someone it was a decent food. At least I don't think so. They buy EVO and ORIJEN because they did a crapload of research and found out how great the food is.
> 
> I still think if someone just wants to feed a "good" food that is known by all, it will be Iams or Purina One or some other garbage.
> 
> I really think PG is in such unchartered territory that this one may bite them hard if they mess with it at all.
> 
> Filling EVO with garbage and marketing it everywhere just won't work. They've already got that category covered in IAMS.


We are also highly educated by this forum to know to do our research. Not everyone is this educated. Also, not everyone is going to KNOW that there's been a switch, that Proctor and Gamble now owns Natura.

I know I did absolutely NO research on dog food when I started looking into stuff for my pups. Someone told me "Solid Gold is a great brand!" and I went "OKAY!" No thought to the fact that it was $55 a bag. I wanted the best for my dogs, and cost wasn't going to be the issue for me. There are several stores around me that sell EVO, Innova, and California Naturals at decent prices that aren't much more than the Solid Gold is. Not only that, but there are many people WITH money who go into a pet store and go "What's the best brand?" And when people say EVO, they look at it and go "Okay." Pick it up and walk out. Why? Because they don't have issues with money, they can afford to just pick it up right off the shelf and take it away with them.

Do people think about the quality of Eukaneuba when they buy it? No, they think "It's expensive, and people say it's a good brand, it must be good! I'll buy it!" I've looked at their prices, and they're just as expensive as brands like Solid Gold and Wellness and Blue Buffalo, with MAYBE a quarter of the quality, and preserved with poisons.


----------



## EnglishBullTerriers

CorgiPaws said:


> That is AWFUL news. I don't even feed my dogs kibble and I'm disappointed.
> Geeze, my kibble cat is in trouble. Were moving back to Orem, UT soon, and the nearest place that sells Orijen is 4 hours away. I think we'll need to stock up before leaving town.


You can also have it shipped to you. I did that a coupld of times because the stores closest to me were out and weren't getting any by the time I was needing it, so I ordered it. Let me know if you want the website I ordered it from and you can see if it would be worth it. I would suggest that when you order it, order more then what you will need, or what you will need for a few months, that should help cut down on costs too.


----------



## harrkim120

xxshaelxx said:


> We are also highly educated by this forum to know to do our research. Not everyone is this educated. Also, not everyone is going to KNOW that there's been a switch, that Proctor and Gamble now owns Natura.
> 
> I know I did absolutely NO research on dog food when I started looking into stuff for my pups. Someone told me "Solid Gold is a great brand!" and I went "OKAY!" No thought to the fact that it was $55 a bag. I wanted the best for my dogs, and cost wasn't going to be the issue for me. There are several stores around me that sell EVO, Innova, and California Naturals at decent prices that aren't much more than the Solid Gold is. Not only that, but there are many people WITH money who go into a pet store and go "What's the best brand?" And when people say EVO, they look at it and go "Okay." Pick it up and walk out. Why? Because they don't have issues with money, they can afford to just pick it up right off the shelf and take it away with them.
> 
> Do people think about the quality of Eukaneuba when they buy it? No, they think "It's expensive, and people say it's a good brand, it must be good! I'll buy it!" I've looked at their prices, and they're just as expensive as brands like Solid Gold and Wellness and Blue Buffalo, with MAYBE a quarter of the quality, and preserved with poisons.


That is so true that it almost hurts!!!!! :biggrin:


----------



## whiteleo

So I have some very interesting info that I got today from Larry who owns the store that sells a ton of Innova/Evo/CaliNat and Orijen dogfood, he only carries those 2 lines plus raw and dehydrated food, he is a big advocate of a raw diet.

I decided to pick his brain at lunchtime today as his store is just across from work, when I went in they had already started selling out Innova products and Larry said that he guesses that this has been in the works for 2 yrs already as things are starting to come together in his mind.
Customers have been coming in to complain that their dogs are now getting diarreah from eating the exact same food they've been on and how can that be? He also claims that the company had a regional meeting that he attended awhile ago and told everyone that they wanted to start using farmed salmon instead of wild, that caused quite an uproar he said.

He believes that they have already started changing their ingredients in the food and he had been such a big seller of Natura products for 10 yrs, he's absolutely astounded. So he's put out a letter to all his customers that come in to the store to buy Natura to let them know who has bought the co. and that he won't be selling it anymore.

He's looking at hopefully getting the grain inclusive Orijen line not yet available in the U.S. to add to his already large line of Orijen/Acana line and possibly something else but he's very particular about what he sells. 

I had to share as I believe there was a thread about a Innova dog that had started getting diarreah after being fed it for awhile.


----------



## CorgiPaws

The store I buy my cat's food at is 100% sold out of every natura prouct they carry. Sounds like people are stocking up. 
I called my business partner (well.. soon to be, we're under contract to buy 50% of this business) and advised we buy as many pallets of EVO (top seller at the daycare) as our distributer had. Too late. They said the day the news came out other stores they provide to called in their very large orders for the EVO. They will be getting more in next month, but will that be trustworthy? Who knows?


----------



## luvMyBRT

Wow. Okay....I wonder if I should even bother with the Innova Large Breed Puppy??? 

Maybe I should just start him on Horizon LBP and then rotate with the Oijen LBP and Acana Pacifica.

It's weird all these new findings you came across....hummmm....not cool. Not cool at all. 

Thanks for sharing....


----------



## CorgiPaws

CorgiPaws said:


> The store I buy my cat's food at is 100% sold out of every natura prouct they carry. Sounds like people are stocking up.
> I called my business partner (well.. soon to be, we're under contract to buy 50% of this business) and advised we buy as many pallets of EVO (top seller at the daycare) as our distributer had. Too late. They said the day the news came out other stores they provide to called in their very large orders for the EVO. They will be getting more in next month, but will that be trustworthy? Who knows?


ETA: The fact it's flying off the shelves does bring one small comfort: this sellout has not gone unnoticed by consumers. I'm sure more are blind to it than not, but at least it's proof that many have taken notice.


----------



## MandyPug

whiteleo said:


> He's looking at hopefully getting the grain inclusive Orijen line not yet available in the U.S.


I haven't heard anything about Orijen releasing a grain inclusive line and i'm in Alberta, Canada. Acana has Grain Inclusive lines though.

Our store isn't dropping it. We're "waiting to see what happens". I however will no longer recommend it. It's not only about ingredients to me, it's about reputation. I cannot trust it and i shouldn't pull the wool over my clients' eyes.


----------



## PUNKem733

Damn this sell out! Just when I find Evo Herring & Salmon Formula for only 16.99 for the small bag, I couldn't find it for the life of me, and I do at a feed store about 100 miles away from me. They also now about the buy out, and will no longer carry it in a few months. 

I think their large bags where about 52.99, I had to buy one to try it. Good god you can smell the fishy smell through the bag.


----------



## bort

whiteleo said:


> Customers have been coming in to complain that their dogs are now getting diarreah from eating the exact same food they've been on and how can that be? He also claims that the company had a regional meeting that he attended awhile ago and told everyone that they wanted to start using farmed salmon instead of wild, that caused quite an uproar he said.


This is us, exactly. I found this forum last week because I felt like our most recent bag of Evo was different and we were looking to change. Then the P&G announcement came a few days later. Grr...


----------



## wags

I received this email from one of the mom and pop store's I frequently visit. This is why I do business with them! They wrote this in an email to their customers which is very nice I think!They are staying on top of this so I like that!


***Important Industry News***
Natura Pet Foods, the makers of California Natural, EVO and Innova was purchased this week by Proctor and Gamble. 

Since Raining Cats and Dogs opened, we have prided ourselves on carrying only the healthiest pet foods from the most socially and environmentally responsible companies around. Natura has billed itself as the maker of "the healthiest pet food in the world," and seemed a natural fit for our store. 

The sale of Natura to Proctor and Gamble, the same company that owns Iams and Eukanuba, causes serious concern that their approach to making healthy, holistic pet food will inevitably change. We have, however, been assured by Natura representatives that Proctor and Gamble intend to let Natura run itself as an independent company and that the manufacturing of their foods will remain unchanged. 

We will continue to monitor the sale and distribution of Natura brands as well as the ingredients list of all their foods. Should we notice any changes, we will share the information immediately. If you have any questions or concerns, please feel free to contact us at the store.


----------



## chowder

I thought you all might find this interesting. I do a lot of surveys and I got one yesterday on pet food. The survey was from Natura and was about them changing the ingredients of Evo Red Meat formula. I'm usually not allowed to tell what the surveys are about but needless to say, they were considering making the formula into something that I would no longer buy, and keeping the price the same (actually higher then what I pay now). I gave them detailed information about my opinion of their new formula and why I would not purchase it if they changed it because I had many other alternatives in pet food.

Think it is a coincidence that I got this survey so soon after the annoucement about the takeover? WIll they really change the whole red meat formula? It must really be a money loser.


----------



## Gia

So the changes are all ready in the works, it would appear!


----------



## wags

this is another note I received after replying to the email I received from the mom and pop store Ideal with well one of them that is! I talked about the P&G dilemma and what is happening so this is yet another reply form the store! From the raining cats and dogs mom and pop store!

Thanks for your note. We're currently deciding how we want to proceed. Our best guess is that food will remain, for the most part, unchanged for the next 12 to 18 months. At that point, we imagine that recipes will change, the distribution network will change and the overall quality will go way down.

We have many other foods in our store that we think are very good alternatives to the Natura brands. If you need any information on any of them, please contact us at anytime.

My gut impression is that we'll keep the brands in our store in the short term, but that we'll eliminate them over the course of the next year... 

Thanks,
Mike


----------



## kevin bradley

Wags/others,

I went out to the forum thats linked to DFA...believe its kind of dedicated to Boxer owners(not that it matters)...

Someone posted a form letter that went out to retailer's of Natura products. 

It was pathetic and filled with corporate babble and rationalizations on why they HAD to do this. Everything from the Owner's getting older to that stupid Corporate word..."synergies." Funny, they contradict the hell out of themselves in this letter because they say that Natura will operate separately. How in Gods name are you going to operate "separately" YET have all these "synergies" created with the help of P and G? You can't really operate alone --AND-- wreap all these benefits from PG. It's one or the other, folks. Don't BS us. 

It's very difficult for me to imagine the Owner's of Natura not living a very comfortable life in their later years even without the PG money. The scope and size of Natura leads me to believe that they had to be very well off. 

But, once again, we are probably talking millions$ vs. tens of millions w/ P and G pockets. 

I have a hard time telling people they shouldn't make whatever they can. It's sad though, because someone always seems to suffer. 

All indications are that Natura is done as far as we are all concerned. There is little hope.


For anyone wanting a definition of corporate "synergy," I'll give you one....

-----Taking every product you have and squeezing every cost savings measure out of it so we can profit more and more and more to give favorable quarterly reports to Wall Street. We will literally rape your product for everything its worth, degrade its quality and replace it with fancy advertising from Chicago and New York Advertisers to make people THINK its still a Quality Product. We will also let it enter our vast distribution network so it can get onto every Wal Mart shelf in the country-----

There you have a real definition of SYNERGY.


----------



## RCTRIPLEFRESH5

buddy97 said:


> ^^^THIS^^^
> 
> 3 of the primary ways P & G will squeeze every last penny out of the operation.
> 
> 1) cutting costs in the way quality control is handled...without lowering product price.
> 
> 2) cutting costs by changing suppliers of the ingredients needed to the cheapest bidders...without lowering product price
> 
> 3) changing the actual ingredients (meat is expensive...grains, cheap fillers, corn etc..are less expensive...without lowering product price.
> 
> 
> ...now, for anyone who believes that Natura will truly continue as an independent entity in the same manner they used to with no interference from the conglomerate of which they claim will enhance them in some way...............ive got a 1987 Chrysler LeBaron i will sell you for $28,000. it used to be owned by Jon Voight (and George Costanza)


LOL...

ANYWAY i know thid isnt related but i was on nutros site,and here's proof enough that companies can word things to make thme so far from the truth...here's nutro's definition of corn gluten meal.

Corn Gluten Meal: Excellent source of protein that is highly digestible. Corn gluten meal is also a source of sulfur amino acids which are important for skin & coat health. It is also a good source of antioxidants like lutein.


----------



## ruckusluvr

wow, how can they just bold face mislead someone like that. and then call themselves dog lovers.
i bet its so all about money that those people do not even have dogs or care about dogs. they just see it as a way to make money.


----------



## RCTRIPLEFRESH5

Gia said:


> So the changes are all ready in the works, it would appear!


Follow up Information about Natura Sale

truth in packaging
Said this on 5-7-2010 At 10:18 pm

Pet food regulations allow a manufacturer to change a pet food formula yet the packaging – ingredient list – does not have to show the changes for six months)

I'm sorry but that has not been true for many years now.

From an article in 2008
The Dog Food Project: Timberwolf Organics ingredient list discrepancies

Packaging and "grace periods"

As for the "new ingredients in old bag" thing, ...many food companies claim that AAFCO gives a "grace period" so that they can use up their old packaging (it's
expensive), but this is not the case. The truth is that the ingredient lists must reflect what's actually in the container. End of story. If someone tries to convince you of this, ask them for the page number of the AAFCO publication where this "grace period" is outlined. It doesn't exist.

From

The Dog Food Project: Clarification on labeling rules
1

For a while AAFCO sort of looked the other way about allowing makers to use up bags. At the AAFCO meeting 3-4 (5-6) years ago they made a specific statement that they would no longer permit this.


----------



## SaltyDog

RCTRIPLEFRESH5 said:


> LOL...
> 
> ANYWAY i know thid isnt related but i was on nutros site,and here's proof enough that companies can word things to make thme so far from the truth...here's nutro's definition of corn gluten meal.
> 
> Corn Gluten Meal: Excellent source of protein that is highly digestible. Corn gluten meal is also a source of sulfur amino acids which are important for skin & coat health. It is also a good source of antioxidants like lutein.



I say this all the time.....people buy dog food, not dogs :wink:


----------



## buddy97

RCTRIPLEFRESH5 said:


> LOL...
> 
> ANYWAY i know thid isnt related but i was on nutros site,and here's proof enough that companies can word things to make thme so far from the truth...here's nutro's definition of corn gluten meal.
> 
> Corn Gluten Meal: Excellent source of protein that is highly digestible. Corn gluten meal is also a source of sulfur amino acids which are important for skin & coat health. It is also a good source of antioxidants like lutein.


yes, corn gluten is so good that its the main source of protein used in those old studies to help "prove" high protein levels can cause liver insufficiencies and/or failure.

of course, thats how all the internet rumor about high protein being bad for dogs got started, but we now know those studies were done on rodents, not dogs, and the high protein levels were not derived from meat.


----------



## RCTRIPLEFRESH5

corn gluten is the worst ingrident possible for dog foods.


----------



## RCTRIPLEFRESH5

SaltyDog said:


> I say this all the time.....people buy dog food, not dogs :wink:


i dont understand your post. ha.:wink:


----------



## lilbabyvenus

PUNKem733 said:


> Anyone know if the ingredient list changed, or did it stay the same but the ingredients are of lower quality? Anyone have a before and after ingredient list? Damn cause I found Core at a local petco, and was shocked that they carried it. I was gonna add it to the rotation.


I know this is a little late, but I have to say I honestly think (even though there is no proof) that they've really messed with the formulas with their foods. I sort of explained it in this post:


> Both my dogs, and a few friends dogs, had issues and got very sick dogs shortly after Wellness switched manufacturers. There was no announcement or reason to suspect that it was in fact Wellness, until all other things were ruled out, and they magically got better as soon as we all switched foods.


 http://dogfoodchat.com/forum/dry-ca...ll-who-will-first-adjust-their-top-5-a-2.html
After feeding Wellness Core for over a year- and both of my dogs thriving on it- shortly after they outsourced, both dogs lost most of their fur, threw up each time they ate it and Venus' skin turned red and swelled, which only happens when she eats corn or large amounts of rice. I have a couple close friends who experienced the same problems at around the same time and we all switched foods and all the symptoms went away. Now I can't say it's a bad food because I know many people still feed it with no issues at all. But we bought many different bags at this time with the same issues, and unfortuanately we'll never try any Wellness product again.


----------



## buddy97

Kimba has eaten 60 lbs worth of Core over the past few months...she has severe reactions to corn and any other grain products and she has had absolutely no problems....so, no, i dont believe there has been any significant ingredient changes.

a bad batch of food produced around the same time with certain inconsistencies that has caused reactions...perhaps.

nevertheless, i have vowed to avoid supporting using any manufacturers who use diamond and am sticking to the few independently operated dog food manufacturers.


----------



## harrkim120

RCTRIPLEFRESH5 said:


> Follow up Information about Natura Sale
> 
> truth in packaging
> Said this on 5-7-2010 At 10:18 pm
> 
> Pet food regulations allow a manufacturer to change a pet food formula yet the packaging – ingredient list – does not have to show the changes for six months)
> 
> I'm sorry but that has not been true for many years now.
> 
> From an article in 2008
> The Dog Food Project: Timberwolf Organics ingredient list discrepancies
> 
> Packaging and "grace periods"
> 
> As for the "new ingredients in old bag" thing, ...many food companies claim that AAFCO gives a "grace period" so that they can use up their old packaging (it's
> expensive), but this is not the case. The truth is that the ingredient lists must reflect what's actually in the container. End of story. If someone tries to convince you of this, ask them for the page number of the AAFCO publication where this "grace period" is outlined. It doesn't exist.
> 
> From
> 
> The Dog Food Project: Clarification on labeling rules
> 1
> 
> For a while AAFCO sort of looked the other way about allowing makers to use up bags. At the AAFCO meeting 3-4 (5-6) years ago they made a specific statement that they would no longer permit this.


So then the whole bag thing is a rumor? If they change the ingredents, they DO have to change the bag right away?


----------



## RCTRIPLEFRESH5

buddy97 said:


> Kimba has eaten 60 lbs worth of Core over the past few months...she has severe reactions to corn and any other grain products and she has had absolutely no problems....so, no, i dont believe there has been any significant ingredient changes.
> 
> a bad batch of food produced around the same time with certain inconsistencies that has caused reactions...perhaps.
> 
> nevertheless, i have vowed to avoid supporting using any manufacturers who use diamond and am sticking to the few independently operated dog food manufacturers.


core isnt an evo food?


----------



## RCTRIPLEFRESH5

harrkim120 said:


> So then the whole bag thing is a rumor? If they change the ingredents, they DO have to change the bag right away?


supposedly AAFCO turned the other cheek, in the past, but now they will enforce it better. i doubt it though. proctor and gamble has pockets most people cant refuse....this prob includes orijen once they become more well known of course.


----------



## lilbabyvenus

RCTRIPLEFRESH5 said:


> core isnt an evo food?


No, Core is made by Wellness (which is manufactured by Diamond) and Evo is made by Natura.


----------



## RCTRIPLEFRESH5

yeah that;s why i dont understand buddys post. what does his dog's allergies on core have to do with this? im not sure?;( i feel lost haha.


----------



## ziggy29

RCTRIPLEFRESH5 said:


> proctor and gamble has pockets most people cant refuse....this prob includes orijen once they become more well known of course.


If some big conglomerate buys out Champion, it may be "game over." If nothing else, you might see a lot more people going raw...


----------



## buddy97

lilbabyvenus said:


> No, Core is made by Wellness (which is manufactured by Diamond) and Evo is made by Natura.


not quite correct. Core is a wellness product. wellness is owned by wellpet llc. core is manufactured by American Nutrition. the rest of the wellness dry manufacturing is divided between Hagen Pet Foods, CJ Foods, and two Diamond plants.


----------



## SaltyDog

ziggy29 said:


> If some big conglomerate buys out Champion, it may be "game over." If nothing else, you might see a lot more people going raw...




Considering premium kibble costs you about 65 cents a cup and raw costs you about $2.50 to $3.00 a cup, it is highly unlikely. Since premium kibble is still processed, raw feeders only feed this in a pinch.

I believe you would feed raw because it is the most species appropriate and controled feed available. Price is not an issue for raw feeders....so even if all the kibble companies were to get bought out....you would have already been feeding raw because it was the best meal for your dog and you could afford it.

So a 70lb dog on Orijen would cost you $2.46 a day to feed. That same 70lb dog on raw would cost you between $6.00 and $10.00 a day to feed.(complete raw meals)

It is my belief that if complete ready to serve raw diets were cheaper, more people would feed them. Processed kibble is and always will be the cheapest.

Keep in mind that even though you are feeding one of the best kibbles available, it is still processed and still hard for K9's to digest, but you buy it because it is the best food you can afford to feed.

FYI, for a few bucks more a day, you could always feed Honest Kitchen or Sojo's :wink:. My dogs LOOOOOOOOOOVVVVEEEEEEE Honest Kitchen. I still feed Evo and Orijen as well.


----------



## CorgiPaws

SaltyDog said:


> Considering premium kibble costs you about 65 cents a cup and raw costs you about $2.50 to $3.00 a cup, it is highly unlikely.


How incredibly wrong this is. My average price per pound on raw is $.74. Most premium foods are pushing $2. I also was spending roughly $70/month feeding my two dogs kibble, and now feed all four of my dogs PMR on less than $100. On raw, my corgi costs me about $11/month. 



SaltyDog said:


> I believe you would feed raw because it is the most species appropriate and controled feed available. Price is not an issue for raw feeders....so even if all the kibble companies were to get bought out....you would have already been feeding raw because it was the best meal for your dog and you could afford it.


Price IS an issue for raw feeders. I sure as heck ain't made of money! We're a one income house, even! I spend far less on raw than I would giving decent quality kibble. By far. 



SaltyDog said:


> So a 70lb dog on Orijen would cost you $2.46 a day to feed. That same 70lb dog on raw would cost you between $6.00 and $10.00 a day to feed.(complete raw meals)


INCREDIBLY wrong. 
a 70lb dog would eat roughly 1.75lbs of raw per day. Even aat a dollar a pound, which is what most raw feeders try to keep their average under, it would only be $1.75 a day. I don't know ANYONE who pays ten bucks a day to feed their dog. Wow. At my average of $.74/lb... I'd be spending $1.29. That's HALF of your kibble price. And I don't have a co op, or wholesaler. I buy my meat at the normal grocery stores, I jsut know where the best deals are. 



SaltyDog said:


> It is my belief that if complete ready to serve raw diets were cheaper, more people would feed them. Processed kibble is and always will be the cheapest.


I can get 10lb of chicken quarters, ready to serve, for $5. Sometimes as low as $3. Perhaps Ol' Roy is cheaper, but not any of the halfway decent kibbles. 



SaltyDog said:


> Keep in mind that even though you are feeding one of the best kibbles available, it is still processed and still hard for K9's to digest, but you buy it because it is the best food you can afford to feed.


If you can afford to feed Evo, Orijen, Horizon, heck, even Blue, Innova, Wellnes, Solid Gold, etc... then you can afford pmr.


ETA: I don't want to turn this into a raw vs. kibble debate, but when I see SO many false claims made about raw, you betcha I'm gonna correct them.


----------



## xxshaelxx

SaltyDog said:


> I believe you would feed raw because it is the most species appropriate and controled feed available. Price is not an issue for raw feeders....so even if all the kibble companies were to get bought out....you would have already been feeding raw because it was the best meal for your dog and you could afford it.


Price is not an issue? Hun, I'm a server. My husband is a cook. We make about $40,000 a year between the two of us. Yes, that's $20,000 a year each, which, as far as I know, is a poor person's salary. I make about $300 a week. If what you're saying is true, I would NOT be able to afford it.



SaltyDog said:


> So a 70lb dog on Orijen would cost you $2.46 a day to feed. That same 70lb dog on raw would cost you between $6.00 and $10.00 a day to feed.(complete raw meals)


I own two dogs that are 35 lbs. Between the two of them, they eat about 3lbs of food. That's 70lbs worth of dog eating 3lbs of food that costs me under $1 per pound. My chicken quarters were $.59/lb, the turkey was $.40/lb, fish was $1/lb, pork was $.86/lb. I feed chicken for one meal a day and turkey for one meal a day right now. That's $1.48 for two dogs a day that equal out to 70lbs of dog. They're not even full grown, and that's how much they WILL eat when they are. So, it'd be roughly 90lbs of dog eating for $1.48 a day. Even once I start feeding things like fish and pork, the higher prices of my feeding, it'll be about $2.38 a day for TWO dogs.



SaltyDog said:


> It is my belief that if complete ready to serve raw diets were cheaper, more people would feed them. Processed kibble is and always will be the cheapest.


Yeah...um...I was spending $100 on Solid Gold and Taste of the Wild for my two dogs a month before raw. I'm not spending $57 a month for those two. Sometimes even less. Oh, but wait, maybe if I was feeding Ol' Roy or Pedigree, I'd be spending less.



SaltyDog said:


> Keep in mind that even though you are feeding one of the best kibbles available, it is still processed and still hard for K9's to digest, but you buy it because it is the best food you can afford to feed.


I thought this way once. Thank you so much, Rannmiller, for opening my eyes to the cheapness of buying raw foods. I will always and forevermore let you know where and when the deals are. XDDDD



SaltyDog said:


> FYI, for a few bucks more a day, you could always feed Honest Kitchen or Sojo's :wink:. My dogs LOOOOOOOOOOVVVVEEEEEEE Honest Kitchen. I still feed Evo and Orijen as well.


For a few bucks less, you can feed raw. My dogs LOOOOOOOOOOOOVE Prey Model Raw. I don't feed anymore kibble.



As with CorgiPaws, I had to say something, because everything in this was wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong.


----------



## lilbabyvenus

RCTRIPLEFRESH5 said:


> yeah that;s why i dont understand buddys post. what does his dog's allergies on core have to do with this? im not sure?;( i feel lost haha.


I had the same issue. A lot fo people didn't- but myself, and buddy's dogs who have a grain allergy suddenly started having a reaction to core after they outsourced their production. There was no announcement of a change in formula, but our dogs had grain allergy reactions to a grainless food none-the-less.


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## ruckusluvr

when i fed raw it was less than HALF the price of feeding Natural Balance!

Free freezer burnt meat, and plus i have a in law that is a butcher and my hubby is a butcher too.

but still, most butchers throw out organ meats. and you can get free freezer burnt meat and find things on sale.
i dont understand why it cost you that much to feed raw.


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## RCTRIPLEFRESH5

i wouldnt feel good feeding freezer burned meat. if iwont eat it neither will my dog...(and yes ive eaten a kibble also haah).


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## PUNKem733

RCTRIPLEFRESH5 said:


> i wouldnt feel good feeding freezer burned meat. if iwont eat it neither will my dog...(and yes ive eaten a kibble also haah).


Why? A dog will eat rotten carcasses, drink out of fetid water, and will be fine.


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## buddy97

lilbabyvenus said:


> I had the same issue. A lot fo people didn't- but myself, and buddy's dogs who have a grain allergy suddenly started having a reaction to core after they outsourced their production. There was no announcement of a change in formula, but our dogs had grain allergy reactions to a grainless food none-the-less.


actually i was saying just the opposite. my dog has been on the Core part of her rotation for a couple months+ with absolutely no problems, and she cannot handle grains at all, so i do not believe grains were somehow incorporated into the core.


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## buddy97

RCTRIPLEFRESH5 said:


> yeah that;s why i dont understand buddys post. what does his dog's allergies on core have to do with this? im not sure?;( i feel lost haha.


doesnt anyone read posts entirely.

first, i did not say my dog had any allergic reactions on core. quite the opposite.

second, i was responding to a post about the theory that ingredients have been changed in wellness core after wellness made changes in their manufacturers.


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## RCTRIPLEFRESH5

PUNKem733 said:


> Why? A dog will eat rotten carcasses, drink out of fetid water, and will be fine.


whats fetid water?
i knwo they will be fine, i just dont liek it ha. guess im crazy.


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## lilbabyvenus

CorgiPaws said:


> How incredibly wrong this is. My average price per pound on raw is $.74. Most premium foods are pushing $2. I also was spending roughly $70/month feeding my two dogs kibble, and now feed all four of my dogs PMR on less than $100. On raw, my corgi costs me about $11/month.


I know this is just my area punishing me, but when I did feed raw it cost me way more to just go buy meat at the store than it is right now feeding 2 dogs Evo. But I can't find great deals on meat like most of you can. Ive searched craiglist but the area I live in is mostly people struggling to get by (on county assistance, ect.). People don't give away anything around here. I'm not arguing with you, I'm just pointing out that there are people out there who just can't swing the incredibly cost effectiveness of raw. And that's one of the reason's I stopped. But, my dad is splitting a cow and pig with us this fall, so that may be my oppourtunity to try and make it work again. Especially under the circumstances...


----------



## RCTRIPLEFRESH5

well if you live in a bad area im sure there's a walmart...there has to be..no way walmart would pass up an opportunity to build in an underpriveleged town....


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## lilbabyvenus

RCTRIPLEFRESH5 said:


> well if you live in a bad area im sure there's a walmart...there has to be..no way walmart would pass up an opportunity to build in an underpriveleged town....


Yeah, we have 4 within 30 miles of here. This was a decent area a few years ago, but all the larger businesses shut down within about 70 miles of here and moved with the economy and left people to either drive 2 or 3 hours for work, or scrape by with what little they can. It's still cheaper for us to buy premium kibble than buy fresh meat. It's not a huge difference, it's probably about $10 to $15 more a month to just feed them fresh meat. But like I said, if we're able to get this beef and pork with my dad, that'll be an awesome starting point.


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## lilbabyvenus

It costs me about 53cents a day to feed both my dogs Evo. (I suppose it helps having chihuahuas lol) Raw meat cost us about $1 a day. Sometimes less if the occation came up where I could find cheaper meat.


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## ziggy29

lilbabyvenus said:


> It costs me about 53cents a day to feed both my dogs Evo. (I suppose it helps having chihuahuas lol) Raw meat cost us about $1 a day. Sometimes less if the occation came up where I could find cheaper meat.


Price per pound is pretty misleading because dry kibble tends to have its nutrients much more concentrated whereas much of the weight of raw is in water (about 80% water, I think). So if you had to feed a dog two pounds a day raw, you're feeding considerably less than two pounds of quality dry kibble.

What matters, to the degree cost matters in someone's feeding decision, is the daily cost of feeding (as you mention above). Apples to apples, that's how you compare the cost of dog food.

Still, in the end, if the money isn't a major factor, if you can afford to give your dog some of the best, you feed what fits your lifestyle and you're doing fine. Whether it's raw or a top quality kibble like Orijen or Acana or (at least until now) Evo, your dog is eating better than 98% of the dogs out there, which is a shared value that can be lost in the debate sometimes.


----------



## lilbabyvenus

ziggy29 said:


> Price per pound is pretty misleading because dry kibble tends to have its nutrients much more concentrated whereas much of the weight of raw is in water (about 80% water, I think). So if you had to feed a dog two pounds a day raw, you're feeding considerably less than two pounds of quality dry kibble.
> 
> What matters, to the degree cost matters in someone's feeding decision, is the daily cost of feeding (as you mention above). Apples to apples, that's how you compare the cost of dog food.
> 
> Still, in the end, if the money isn't a major factor, if you can afford to give your dog some of the best, you feed what fits your lifestyle and you're doing fine. Whether it's raw or a top quality kibble like Orijen or Acana or (at least until now) Evo, your dog is eating better than 98% of the dogs out there, which is a shared value that can be lost in the debate sometimes.


Oh yeah, exactly. I may have even been figuring it out wrong all this time. But I figure between the two of them, I should feed them 6oz of raw meat a day. One weighs 13 pounds, and the other 7, but the 13 pound girl needs to lose a little. Beef is usually $3 to $4 a pound no matter how you buy it- ground, roast, steak, whatever- it's the cheapest you can find. Chicken is about $4 a pound for legs or thighs (meat with bones) and $2 to $3 a pound for breasts- about $10 for a 5 pound bag of breast meat at WalMart. I buy a 6.6 pound bag of Evo for about $16 and it lasts them3 weeks to a month usually, unless they're really active then they tend to eat more-they are free fed and I always leave their bowl full. Am I figuring the costs right? Or did I mess something up? I'm really not trying to argue with anyone, I'm just trying to figure out if things are just that different here. It really stinks lol *sigh*


----------



## notilloc

Well this news just ruined my day. Sorry to change the topic here and I just read all 15 pages here and I cant believe they sold out. Evo has been the only food that my boxers have done well on. First buster gets attacked by coyotes and now this. Terrible day. I have been feeding evo since december and they have been doing so well with it. I am going to my premium pet store in bozeman tomorow and begging them to start carrying orijen because otherwise Im stuck with blue buff wilderness or some other food that my dogs dont do very well on.


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## SaltyDog

For those that chose to "bash" my post go back and read it again. 

I believe raw is the better feed and I was posting against kibble, not for it. Kibble will always be cheaper. I also stated that if complete raw diets were cheaper, I believe more people would feed them. People choose to feed premium kibble because that is what they can afford.


Also, I said a COMPLETE RAW DIET....not one you go out to wal-mart and construct yourselves. A complete raw diet such as Primal or Aunt Jeni's Homemade. Although I believe in the raw diet, I'm not for construct yourself diets. Just my opinion, don't jump all over me for it.

I also posted price per feeding....not pound. I used it in cup form....not pound. I also used a 70lb dog for reference.

For a moderator Corgi, you sure are a pot-stirrer :wink:


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## RCTRIPLEFRESH5

notilloc said:


> Well this news just ruined my day. Sorry to change the topic here and I just read all 15 pages here and I cant believe they sold out. Evo has been the only food that my boxers have done well on. First buster gets attacked by coyotes and now this. Terrible day. I have been feeding evo since december and they have been doing so well with it. I am going to my premium pet store in bozeman tomorow and begging them to start carrying orijen because otherwise Im stuck with blue buff wilderness or some other food that my dogs dont do very well on.


order orijen online lot of sites offer free shipping occasionally,just stock up. which evo are you feeding?

WOW COYOTES???when was that?im sorry to hear that.....ha ive never seen any coyotes here.hope hes ok!


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## harrkim120

lilbabyvenus said:


> Chicken is about $4 a pound for legs or thighs (meat with bones) and $2 to $3 a pound for breasts- about $10 for a 5 pound bag of breast meat at WalMart.


Something doesn't sound right here. I get my bone-in, skin-on chicken leg quarters for 36 cents a pound. Now, granted that is from a meat distributor, but even the local supermarket and Walmart have them for no more than a dollar a pound.


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## sal101011

i think there are many factors when comparing the pricing of dry kibble and raw food, it depends on location, breed of dog, and how many dogs you have. Any change in any of the 3 will impact the determination of which cost more. For example in south florida, the local supermarket you can get chix backs, necks, gizzards, hearts at around $0.59 per pound, and wings and thighs for around $1.29 per pound. I feed my dogs Orijen Adult which comes out to $1.98 per pound. Now I think to do the math correctly, we have to break it down by calorie, not necessarily by pound. I am not sure how many calories are in a meal of a raw diet, but orijen adult provides around 468 cal per cup. I am not opposing either or, nor am i taking sides, i actually feed them Orijen, but their breakfast is either chix wings or chix backs. However to get an accurate measure, it would be best to break it down by calories.


----------



## Jordan S.

CorgiPaws said:


> How incredibly wrong this is. My average price per pound on raw is $.74. Most premium foods are pushing $2. I also was spending roughly $70/month feeding my two dogs kibble, and now feed all four of my dogs PMR on less than $100. On raw, my corgi costs me about $11/month.
> 
> 
> Price IS an issue for raw feeders. I sure as heck ain't made of money! We're a one income house, even! I spend far less on raw than I would giving decent quality kibble. By far.
> 
> 
> INCREDIBLY wrong.
> a 70lb dog would eat roughly 1.75lbs of raw per day. Even aat a dollar a pound, which is what most raw feeders try to keep their average under, it would only be $1.75 a day. I don't know ANYONE who pays ten bucks a day to feed their dog. Wow. At my average of $.74/lb... I'd be spending $1.29. That's HALF of your kibble price. And I don't have a co op, or wholesaler. I buy my meat at the normal grocery stores, I jsut know where the best deals are.
> 
> 
> I can get 10lb of chicken quarters, ready to serve, for $5. Sometimes as low as $3. Perhaps Ol' Roy is cheaper, but not any of the halfway decent kibbles.
> 
> 
> If you can afford to feed Evo, Orijen, Horizon, heck, even Blue, Innova, Wellnes, Solid Gold, etc... then you can afford pmr.
> 
> 
> ETA: I don't want to turn this into a raw vs. kibble debate, but when I see SO many false claims made about raw, you betcha I'm gonna correct them.


I think it more so depends on location. I spent $30 a month on raw for my 25 lb dog. Not everyone has access to bulk bins of chicken quarters for a buck. I've tried Whole Foods, Trader Joes, Pavilions, Vons, ralphs, and albertsons no $0.25 per pound meat around here besides the pork hooves, necks, and liver


----------



## CorgiPaws

SaltyDog said:


> For those that chose to "bash" my post go back and read it again.


No one bashed anything. We pointed out what we felt were false statements. That's all. 



SaltyDog said:


> I believe raw is the better feed and I was posting against kibble, not for it. Kibble will always be cheaper.


Postings for kibble will be corrected if false statements are made, as will posts against it. 
And I think we've already gone over the price factor. :wink:



SaltyDog said:


> I also stated that if complete raw diets were cheaper, I believe more people would feed them. People choose to feed premium kibble because that is what they can afford.


OR they feed them because they've made enough excuses to get out of feeding raw. Or their area makes raw unrealistic. Or because they just have no idea how cheap it really is. Or they're afraid of that evil bacteria. Or they don't have the "time" and "space" required. Or they're afraid of bones. I've heard a million and a half reasons people make up to not feed raw. 
I'm NOT saying everyone needs to feed raw right now, it's something you have to be committed to, and it's something that you have to be comfortable with. I'm just saying there's a million reasons, not just a price factor. 
I feed raw. I CAN'T afford premium kibble. Go figure. 



SaltyDog said:


> Also, I said a COMPLETE RAW DIET....not one you go out to wal-mart and construct yourselves. A complete raw diet such as Primal or Aunt Jeni's Homemade. Although I believe in the raw diet, I'm not for construct yourself diets. Just my opinion, don't jump all over me for it.


Ohhhh you're refering to the species inappropriate raw diets with fillers. My bad, I must have been under the impression we were talking about what's best for DOGS here, so I was in "carnivore land" where carnivores eat meat, not kelp. Whoops. 



SaltyDog said:


> I also posted price per feeding....not pound. I used it in cup form....not pound. I also used a 70lb dog for reference.


As already pointed out, kibble and raw can not be compares like apples to apples. You go by a price per day, not price per unit of food. Raw comes out cheaper nearly every time. 



SaltyDog said:


> For a moderator Corgi, you sure are a pot-stirrer :wink:


Am I? I hadn't noticed. 
I really wasn't trying to stir any pot, I'm sorry if my disagreeing with you offends you. Correcting false statements is in no way "stirring the pot" but if you feel that way, I take full credit. :biggrin: Thanks!


ETA: for those who have mentioned their location being the reason you can't feed raw: totally understandable, I wouldn't be paying $3/lb for chicken, either. That's nuts. I've lived in san diego, portland, denver, salt lake, and vegas... and prices have all been relatively the same in all those places, so I just can't fathom it. I can't imagine what your grocery bills are every month! holy cow!


----------



## xxshaelxx

ziggy29 said:


> Price per pound is pretty misleading because dry kibble tends to have its nutrients much more concentrated whereas much of the weight of raw is in water (about 80% water, I think). So if you had to feed a dog two pounds a day raw, you're feeding considerably less than two pounds of quality dry kibble.
> 
> What matters, to the degree cost matters in someone's feeding decision, is the daily cost of feeding (as you mention above). Apples to apples, that's how you compare the cost of dog food.


That's not true. Dogs eat more on kibble.

Think of it this way: dog food companies are getting their meats from basically the same places we would be getting our meats for raw food from. They're not paying a hell of a lot less than we are for the price of their foods, so they're obviously going to be more expensive to compensate.

As for the idea that you feed more on raw? That's not true, either, because, as I stated before, my dogs are being fed a lot cheaper than when they were on Solid Gold and Taste of the Wild, which are cheaper than EVO, and even Innova. AND they've gained a LOT of weight on it, and I constantly find myself cutting back more and more. I'm even going to have to cut them back again soon, because they're getting too much fat on them.



lilbabyvenus said:


> Oh yeah, exactly. I may have even been figuring it out wrong all this time. But I figure between the two of them, I should feed them 6oz of raw meat a day. One weighs 13 pounds, and the other 7, but the 13 pound girl needs to lose a little. Beef is usually $3 to $4 a pound no matter how you buy it- ground, roast, steak, whatever- it's the cheapest you can find. Chicken is about $4 a pound for legs or thighs (meat with bones) and $2 to $3 a pound for breasts- about $10 for a 5 pound bag of breast meat at WalMart. I buy a 6.6 pound bag of Evo for about $16 and it lasts them3 weeks to a month usually, unless they're really active then they tend to eat more-they are free fed and I always leave their bowl full. Am I figuring the costs right? Or did I mess something up? I'm really not trying to argue with anyone, I'm just trying to figure out if things are just that different here. It really stinks lol *sigh*


I have NEVER found chicken breasts that are cheaper than legs/thighs/leg quarters. Wal-Mart sells the chicken leg quarters for $.59/lb. I've even seen them in other places, local grocery stores that jack their prices up to REALLY expensive prices, selling them at $.99/lb.



SaltyDog said:


> For those that chose to "bash" my post go back and read it again.
> 
> I believe raw is the better feed and I was posting against kibble, not for it. Kibble will always be cheaper. I also stated that if complete raw diets were cheaper, I believe more people would feed them. People choose to feed premium kibble because that is what they can afford.
> 
> 
> Also, I said a COMPLETE RAW DIET....not one you go out to wal-mart and construct yourselves. A complete raw diet such as Primal or Aunt Jeni's Homemade. Although I believe in the raw diet, I'm not for construct yourself diets. Just my opinion, don't jump all over me for it.
> 
> I also posted price per feeding....not pound. I used it in cup form....not pound. I also used a 70lb dog for reference.
> 
> For a moderator Corgi, you sure are a pot-stirrer :wink:


We were not bashing your post. You stated that it's WAY more expensive to feed raw, but it's not. That's what we're trying to get across. Nowhere did CorgiPaws or I ever say that kibble was better, or raw was better or anything. We were breaking down the costs so that people don't start thinking that raw is way too expensive for them to consider.

And you can't compare raw to kibble in the form of cups, because you can't feed raw in cups.



Jordan S. said:


> I think it more so depends on location. I spent $30 a month on raw for my 25 lb dog. Not everyone has access to bulk bins of chicken quarters for a buck. I've tried Whole Foods, Trader Joes, Pavilions, Vons, ralphs, and albertsons no $0.25 per pound meat around here besides the pork hooves, necks, and liver


None of us really get stuff for $.25/lb...as for the places you've check, most of them are going to have OUTRAGEOUS prices for meat. Places like Whole Foods and Trader Joes are specialty places. Anything there is going to be double-triple what you would find at even local grocery stores.



CorgiPaws said:


> ETA: for those who have mentioned their location being the reason you can't feed raw: totally understandable, I wouldn't be paying $3/lb for chicken, either. That's nuts. I've lived in san diego, portland, denver, salt lake, and vegas... and prices have all been relatively the same in all those places, so I just can't fathom it. I can't imagine what your grocery bills are every month! holy cow!


ROFLMAO!!!!!


----------



## ziggy29

xxshaelxx said:


> That's not true. Dogs eat more on kibble.
> 
> Think of it this way: dog food companies are getting their meats from basically the same places we would be getting our meats for raw food from. They're not paying a hell of a lot less than we are for the price of their foods, so they're obviously going to be more expensive to compensate.
> 
> As for the idea that you feed more on raw? That's not true, either, because, as I stated before, my dogs are being fed a lot cheaper than when they were on Solid Gold and Taste of the Wild, which are cheaper than EVO, and even Innova. AND they've gained a LOT of weight on it, and I constantly find myself cutting back more and more. I'm even going to have to cut them back again soon, because they're getting too much fat on them.


Huh? I was talking about how much you feed by *weight*, not cost. Cost can vary pretty widely depending on your source for raw meats. I'm pretty sure a quality dry kibble is going to have far more calories per ounce than raw meat which is 80% water (give or take). You may feed a 50-pound dog 1-1.5 pounds of raw feed per day. You won't feed anywhere near 1-1.5 pounds of dry kibble a day. That was my point -- not that quality kibble is cheaper than raw, but that "cost per pound" is not the right cost metric to use because *by weight*, you feed far less kibble a day than raw.

Ergo, the best cost comparison is done on a cost per day basis, which accounts for both differences in cost per pound *and* the difference in how much you feed by weight.


----------



## RawFedDogs

ziggy29 said:


> You may feed a 50-pound dog 2-3 pounds of raw feed per day.


Hehe, I feed my 120-140lb Danes 2-3 lbs of raw food/day. A 50lb dog would take closer to 1-1.5 lbs a day but as you said, that is neither here nor there.



> Ergo, the best cost comparison is done on a cost per day basis, which accounts for both differences in cost per pound *and* the difference in how much you feed by weight.


Exactly correct. :smile: Raw fed by an EXPERIENCED raw feeder wins that contest hands down most every time. The reason I say "experienced" is that it takes a good amount of time to learn how to buy raw food for your dogs. Most of us "old timers" feed raw a lot cheaper than we used to kibble.


----------



## ziggy29

RawFedDogs said:


> Hehe, I feed my 120-140lb Danes 2-3 lbs of raw food/day. A 50lb dog would take closer to 1-1.5 lbs a day but as you said, that is neither here nor there.


Yes, I meant 1-1.5 pounds a day. Coffee hasn't engaged yet. I thought "2-3% of weight" but somehow forgot to do the math and just wrote "pounds" instead. Post fixed. :smile:


----------



## SaltyDog

xxshaelxx said:


> You stated that it's WAY more expensive to feed raw, but it's not.



No, I said Complete Raw Diets that you purchase.


----------



## harrkim120

Just as a comaprison for everyone...my 25 pound Boston Terrier used to eat a half a pound of kibble per day. He now eats a little under a pound to a pound a day of prey model raw (not commercial raw diets). 

Cost per pound of kibble per pound: $2.15

Cost of meat per pound (average): $0.84 

SO.....

Cost per day of eating kibble: $1.08

Cost per day of eating raw (on the most expensive day): $0.84


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## lilbabyvenus

SaltyDog said:


> For those that chose to "bash" my post go back and read it again.
> 
> I believe raw is the better feed and I was posting against kibble, not for it. Kibble will always be cheaper. I also stated that if complete raw diets were cheaper, I believe more people would feed them. People choose to feed premium kibble because that is what they can afford.
> 
> 
> Also, I said a COMPLETE RAW DIET....not one you go out to wal-mart and construct yourselves. A complete raw diet such as Primal or Aunt Jeni's Homemade. Although I believe in the raw diet, I'm not for construct yourself diets. Just my opinion, don't jump all over me for it.
> 
> I also posted price per feeding....not pound. I used it in cup form....not pound. I also used a 70lb dog for reference.
> 
> For a moderator Corgi, you sure are a pot-stirrer :wink:


I'm sorry if you meant me dragging this out, but I was agreeing with you. From what I could figure, with costs in my area, it costs more to feed raw than kibble- premade or just buying raw meat and doing it on your own. Sorry if I had upset you.


----------



## lilbabyvenus

harrkim120 said:


> Something doesn't sound right here. I get my bone-in, skin-on chicken leg quarters for 36 cents a pound. Now, granted that is from a meat distributor, but even the local supermarket and Walmart have them for no more than a dollar a pound.


Holy crap, I WISH I could get deals like that... I just went to the store this morning, a 1.4 pound package of bone in, skin on, chicken legs was $3.97. It has to be the area, because so many of you are able to get your meat that cheap.


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## 1605

buddy97 said:


> are you kidding. with these conglomerate takeovers, the pattern is always the same.
> 
> -first, the ingredient labels LOOK the same, but now they are sourcing from the cheapest suppliers....to maximize profits to the Nth degree.
> 
> -next, the actual quality control form the beginning to the end of the manufacturing process gets degraded...to maximize profits to the Nth degree
> 
> -next, maybe a year, maybe 3 years down the road, the actual ingredients begin to change....to maximize profits to the Nth degree.
> 
> 
> *anyone who thinks you will be getting the same quality product just because the ingredient list looks the same is in fantasyland.*


I guess you have never actually worked in the corporate environment, otherwise you would not be making such huge sweeping statements. 

I reiterate: not all acquisitions result in the parent company coming in and totally restructuring the company that has just been bought, especially one the size of Nutro. P&G would prefer a "turn key" operation, not "reinventing the wheel". It would cost too much!

Natura already has well established lines for material, production, and distribution in place. Their product line addresses a market segment that current P&G lines do not. That's probably why P&G bought them. 

What happens next? Time will only tell. But to get everyone whipped into a frenzy over "what might happen" is simply fear mongering.


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## harrkim120

lilbabyvenus said:


> Holy crap, I WISH I could get deals like that... I just went to the store this morning, a 1.4 pound package of bone in, skin on, chicken legs was $3.97. It has to be the area, because so many of you are able to get your meat that cheap.


Where are you from?


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## harrkim120

SubMariner said:


> I guess you have never actually worked in the corporate environment, otherwise you would not be making such huge sweeping statements.
> 
> I reiterate: not all acquisitions result in the parent company coming in and totally restructuring the company that has just been bought, especially one the size of Nutro. P&G would prefer a "turn key" operation, not "reinventing the wheel". It would cost too much!
> 
> Nutro already has well established lines for material, production, and distribution in place. Their product line addresses a market segment that current P&G lines do not. That's probably why P&G bought them.
> 
> What happens next? Time will only tell. But to get everyone whipped into a frenzy over "what might happen" is simply fear mongering.



Natura...not Nutro. :wink:


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## ziggy29

SubMariner said:


> I guess you have never actually worked in the corporate environment, otherwise you would not be making such huge sweeping statements.
> 
> I reiterate: not all acquisitions result in the parent company coming in and totally restructuring the company that has just been bought, especially one the size of Nutro. P&G would prefer a "turn key" operation, not "reinventing the wheel". It would cost too much!
> 
> Nutro already has well established lines for material, production, and distribution in place. Their product line addresses a market segment that current P&G lines do not. That's probably why P&G bought them.
> 
> What happens next? Time will only tell. But to get everyone whipped into a frenzy over "what might happen" is simply fear mongering.


Nutro? Obviously you mean Natura, though I guess it would be "fearmongering" to suspect that over time, Natura products will start to converge on the "quality" of Nutro. I don't even think P&G would cheapen it THAT much, but still... 

As an aside, does anyone know the list of ingredients in Iams before P&G bought them in 1999? I've seen widespread claims that they cheapened the ingredients and made it a worse food (keeping the price up and substituting ingredient costs with marketing costs) so they could begin mass-marketing it to the big boxes, but I've not seen a pre-1999 label or nutritional analysis of Iams for definitive proof.

And you're still ignoring the animal testing/animal cruelty aspect of the dismay about this acquisition. That isn't fearmongering; it's real.


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## lilbabyvenus

harrkim120 said:


> Where are you from?


I'm about two hours west of St Paul in Minnesota.


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## harrkim120

lilbabyvenus said:


> I'm about two hours west of St Paul in Minnesota.


Do any of these seem familar? I have to travel about an hour to get to my meat distributor. I just buy all the meat at once so the trip is worth it.

meat distributor st paul - Google Search


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## CorgiPaws

SubMariner said:


> Nutro already has well established lines for material, production, and distribution in place. Their product line addresses a market segment that current P&G lines do not. That's probably why P&G bought them.
> 
> What happens next? Time will only tell. But to get everyone whipped into a frenzy over "what might happen" is simply fear mongering.


Clearly there's no concept of "the bottom line" here.

What happens next? They're going to try to continue to appeal to the audience that NATURA products appeal to, but cut their costs to a minimum. So the bag will real the same, but they'll take the cheapest bid for ingredients, regardless of quality and reliability, and they will no longer supervise production and test the final product like natura has done.

It will be subtle changes, ones that don't have to come in a different bag. For the unsuspecting customer, it's the same ingredients, in the same bag. Most people have no idea where their dog food has been before being neatly packaged in that paper bag, and they will still be none the wiser that it's changed.

Until, of course, pets all over get sick.


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## ziggy29

CorgiPaws said:


> It will be subtle changes, ones that don't have to come in a different bag. For the unsuspecting customer, it's the same ingredients, in the same bag. Most people have no idea where their dog food has been before being neatly packaged in that paper bag, and they will still be none the wiser that it's changed.


Yep. All you have to do, for example, is change "human-grade" ingredients to cheaper, lower quality non-human grade ingredients, and you've cut costs and reduced the quality without changing the label one bit. 

You could also tinker with the exact percentages of ingredients to add more cheap ingredients, as long as they don't "leapfrog" over the higher-quality and costlier ingredients, and again, you've reduced the quality without needing to change the label. 

IMO, it's 99% likely to be "wishful thinking" to think Natura pet foods will be completely unchanged in terms of ingredients, ingredient quality and quality control beyond the next year or two. When a large, publicly traded company beholden to stockholders buys out a smaller, privately-held company which the owners can manage according to their beliefs and not an earnings statement, the results are not going to be positive. With *no* exception I can think of at the moment.


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## luvMyBRT

CorgiPaws said:


> Until, of course, pets all over get sick.


And, that's something I'm not willing to risk! It's only Orijen, Acana, and Horizon for my new puppy. 

I'm not going to sit around and hope that with every new bag of Innova I get that my puppy doesn't get sick.


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## SaltyDog

lilbabyvenus said:


> Sorry if I had upset you.


I'm not upset at all :biggrin:


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## lilbabyvenus

harrkim120 said:


> Do any of these seem familar? I have to travel about an hour to get to my meat distributor. I just buy all the meat at once so the trip is worth it.
> 
> meat distributor st paul - Google Search


Wow, thank you. I'll have to look into those and make a few phone calls. This is why I post my issues  Maybe I'll be able to find something cheaper now. I would absolutely love to try raw again, now that we have our own house


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## wags

gee back to the topic here that was started about P&G attaining Natura~ I got this letter from the natura company after I wrote a letter to them~

Thank you for taking the time to contact Natura with your concerns about our products and the future acquisition of Natura by P&G which is expected to occur sometime in June 2010. 

We want to reassure you that Natura is changing ownership but not its philosophy or commitment to quality and nutrition. 

By joining the P&G family of brands, our intent is that we will have more resources to raise awareness for the benefits of natural and holistic pet foods. Our hope is even more pets will then experience the benefits of Natura’s high-quality, super-premium brands. 

We have genuinely appreciated your support in the past and we hope we can count you among our valued customers in the future.

Sincerely,

Colin 
Natura Representative


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## lilbabyvenus

wags said:


> By joining the P&G family of brands, our intent is that we will have more resources to raise awareness for the benefits of natural and holistic pet foods. Our hope is even more pets will then experience the benefits of Natura’s high-quality, super-premium brands.


If this is really all that happens, that would be kind of nice, if more and more people were made aware of quality pet foods and pet nutrition. The whole ordeeal still leaves a bad taste in my mouth though, and I really think I'll still be switching brands.


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## ziggy29

lilbabyvenus said:


> If this is really all that happens, that would be kind of nice, if more and more people were made aware of quality pet foods and pet nutrition. The whole ordeeal still leaves a bad taste in my mouth though, and I really think I'll still be switching brands.


If *nothing* has changed in a couple years and there are no plans to make changes to cheapen Natura's products, I'll be glad to be among the first to admit I was wrong. I hope I am. I doubt I'll be wrong, but I want to be.

Just the same, knowing P&G's past history with Iams and Eukanuba -- and to say nothing of its history of animal testing -- it'll be Champion supplemented with raw for me. I suspect this announcement will be very good for Champion's business.


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## wags

lilbabyvenus said:


> If this is really all that happens, that would be kind of nice, if more and more people were made aware of quality pet foods and pet nutrition. The whole ordeeal still leaves a bad taste in my mouth though, and I really think I'll still be switching brands.


Seems to me Colin ~ the natura representative~ got all his information from P&G and has a written script set in front of him LOL! Nothing good can come out of this so they are trying to cover their arse (can I write this?):wink:


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## CorgiPaws

Of COURSE they don't want you to believe that P&G will change anything. 
And did they make promises? No. They used words like "intent." 
In reality, their intent means nothing.


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## RawFedDogs

I don't feed kibble so I don't have a dog in this fight but I really think a lot of you people are getting terribly upset over nothing. You probably won't notice any difference in the company or its products. If you do, THEN is the time to worry and get upset and talk about changing brands. You probably use a lot of P&G products now and don't know it. They have 1,000s of product lines. If their products were no good, they would never have grown to the size they are now.


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## whiteleo

Well as I said earlier in my post Natura had already wanted to start using "farmed salmon" instead of "wild caught" salmon, and that was brought up at a reginal meeting months ago so how long do you think this corporate takeover has been in the works? I'd say at least a year as that big of a company doesn't just go out and buy another co., this has been in the works for quite awhile.


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## RCTRIPLEFRESH5

harrkim120 said:


> Just as a comaprison for everyone...my 25 pound Boston Terrier used to eat a half a pound of kibble per day. He now eats a little under a pound to a pound a day of prey model raw (not commercial raw diets).
> 
> Cost per pound of kibble per pound: $2.15
> 
> Cost of meat per pound (average): $0.84
> 
> SO.....
> 
> Cost per day of eating kibble: $1.08
> 
> Cost per day of eating raw (on the most expensive day): $0.84


so you did feed less of kibblee? a half pound of kibble a day vs a pound of raw a day>?
obviously that doesnt matter since raw is cheaper just saying though.


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## wags

I do use alot of P& G products. But as for dog food NO! I have never fed Iams~ Eukenuba nothing P&G brand dog food, nor do I want to! I dont care for the ingredients they use, but if they actually left Nautra just as it is I really would not see any problems, but this just wont be. They will inevitably change the formula to make it more consumer friendly(what they think is consumer friendly by cutting their costs, not ours with unfavorable ingredients) just thinking they are doing everyone a great favor and they are not! P& G has some nice products which are very commendable, just not dog food!

PG.com Brands: hair products, beauty brands, well being


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## xxshaelxx

http://www.wonderpuppy.net/LB082499.jpg

Eukaneuba - 1999










Eukaneuba - 1998










Not Iams, but still...


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## 1605

harrkim120 said:


> Natura...not Nutro. :wink:


Thanks noticing the typo; spelling corrected! :redface:


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## malluver1005

harrkim120 said:


> but even the local supermarket and Walmart have them for no more than a dollar a pound.


Oh, the Walmart and local supermarkets here have them for $1.20/lb. Sometimes more!


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## CorgiPaws

RawFedDogs said:


> I don't feed kibble so I don't have a dog in this fight but I really think a lot of you people are getting terribly upset over nothing. You probably won't notice any difference in the company or its products. If you do, THEN is the time to worry and get upset and talk about changing brands. You probably use a lot of P&G products now and don't know it. They have 1,000s of product lines. If their products were no good, they would never have grown to the size they are now.


I see this point very clearly. Nothing has happened yet, so why worry?

But then we have P&G's history with pet foods. We also have the basic principles of big time companies. Both of those would suggest that changes are in store, and not for the better for our pets. 

I'd rather prevent the potential issues, then treat them next year. 


Who knows who is right. You might be right, and maybe nothing will change and there are no problems. If I'm wrong, and people have left these products behind for no good reason: oh well. If you're wrong, and people follow that advice as stick with these products despite P&G's agenda and pet food history, thousands of animals could be harmed. 

For all intensive purposes, I HOPE those of us in an uproar are wrong. History just shows otherwise.


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## 1605

RawFedDogs said:


> I don't feed kibble so I don't have a dog in this fight but I really think a lot of you people are getting terribly upset over nothing. You probably won't notice any difference in the company or its products. If you do, THEN is the time to worry and get upset and talk about changing brands. You probably use a lot of P&G products now and don't know it. They have 1,000s of product lines. If their products were no good, they would never have grown to the size they are now.


Wise words, RFD.

However, I would like to say that I'm for writing to P&G's President or whomever will be heading up their Natura line saying things to the effect that this line of products is very good & you hope they keep this "winning recipe" going, or you'd be taking your business elsewhere.

If enough people voice this kind of concern they will certainly take notice. The "Axis of Evil" routine really won't work.


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## ziggy29

SubMariner said:


> However, I would like to say that I'm for writing to P&G's President or whomever will be heading up their Natura line saying things to the effect that this line of products is very good & you hope they keep this "winning recipe" going, or you'd be taking your business elsewhere.
> 
> If enough people voice this kind of concern they will certainly take notice. The "Axis of Evil" routine really won't work.


It may not change what happens but it will "work" in terms of individuals refusing to grow the profits of a business they find unethical. Again, quality concerns are only *part* of the problem. The historical "corporate citizenship" of the acquiring conglomerate, including long history of animal testing, is also at issue even if the quality doesn't change one iota. (I still think the quality will change eventually, and not for the better, but I could be wrong and hope I am.) 

And although I'm not "outraged" by it, I'm concerned enough that I'm not going to let my dog be the guinea pig for possible formulation and quality changes urged on by bean-counting publicly-traded corporate bigwigs motivated *only* by the bottom line and not by the welfare of dogs. As long as there are other options in the marketplace (i.e. Champion), there's no cause for alarm. If Champion sells out, though... hello PMR...

(Sure, a small, independent privately-held business wants to profit, but maybe not to the point of producing inferior dog food if helping dogs get better food was part of their motivation for starting and growing the business.) 

When Champion is still an option, why would I take a chance on betting _*against *_the usual corporate acquisitive behavior with my dog's health?


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## harrkim120

lilbabyvenus said:


> Wow, thank you. I'll have to look into those and make a few phone calls. This is why I post my issues  Maybe I'll be able to find something cheaper now. I would absolutely love to try raw again, now that we have our own house


My pleasure. :biggrin: I don't know if it will be a help at all or not, but I figured it might be worth a try. You might also look into a local raw feeding co-op. There must be one around. 



RCTRIPLEFRESH5 said:


> so you did feed less of kibblee? a half pound of kibble a day vs a pound of raw a day>?
> obviously that doesnt matter since raw is cheaper just saying though.


I did feed less of kibble per pound. Everyone will unless you're feeding Ol' Roy or something. That was the point that I was trying to stress. I feed a higher amount of meat, yet it's still cheaper....here at least. :tongue:



malluver1005 said:


> Oh, the Walmart and local supermarkets here have them for $1.20/lb. Sometimes more!


That's what you get for living in SoCal. :wink:


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## wags

I just went to buy a bag of Acana at one of my mom & pop stores and asked him what he thought about the P&G aquiring Natura and he said he herad they were keeping it a seperate entity so he siad he tought it was good that they would market it so wel. And I said gee did you think not only about the marketing value but the qulaity of the ingredients they may change? And he said he thinkis they will not chnage anything becasue he said they are going to still make it at the same quality. Now where the heck is he getting this info. from? I believe they are telling everyone this but it will change undoubtedly! Just like when all big conglomerations change products when they get their hands on them! I get the marketing tactic of course P&G is going to market the he (double hockey stick) out of the name! I get that but I am like the ingredients will certainly change no doubt about it. I just cant believe some peoples thinking though! I am disappointed in this place now! The other place I deal with is eventually going to not have the P&G product! This place seems to think that its going to all be the same ole same ole! I wonder who will be right!


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## m&mluvpugs

Does anyone know when this new 'grain free' line of California Naturals will be available? and i'm assuming they will still go ahead with this line despite the buyout?

Natural Dog Food, Cat Food & Puppy Food for Pets With Food Sensitivity – California Natural

tia.


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## wags

m&mluvpugs said:


> Does anyone know when this new 'grain free' line of California Naturals will be available? and i'm assuming they will still go ahead with this line despite the buyout?
> 
> Natural Dog Food, Cat Food & Puppy Food for Pets With Food Sensitivity – California Natural
> 
> tia.


I was just at the pet store today and mine (illinois) did not have this new line yet.


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## m&mluvpugs

m&mluvpugs said:


> Does anyone know when this new 'grain free' line of California Naturals will be available? and i'm assuming they will still go ahead with this line despite the buyout?
> 
> Natural Dog Food, Cat Food & Puppy Food for Pets With Food Sensitivity – California Natural
> 
> tia.


found an answer to my own question 
http://www.lab-retriever.net/board/california-natural-grain-t7356220.html?p=1964535772
disappointing for us, as the second ingredient in all three of the new formulas (available in June) is peas, which is one of the things we have to avoid


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## chowder

m&mluvpugs said:


> found an answer to my own question
> http://www.lab-retriever.net/board/california-natural-grain-t7356220.html?p=1964535772
> disappointing for us, as the second ingredient in all three of the new formulas (available in June) is peas, which is one of the things we have to avoid


It's actually very good information for me though. I've been searching for another food for Chelsy, who has to avoid grains and also anything with salmon or salmon oil in it. The only food I've found so far is Evo. Looks like she will be able to try the California natural foods starting in June, as long at they don't change once P&G get hold of them.


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## notilloc

RCTRIPLEFRESH5 said:


> order orijen online lot of sites offer free shipping occasionally,just stock up. which evo are you feeding?
> 
> WOW COYOTES???when was that?im sorry to hear that.....ha ive never seen any coyotes here.hope hes ok!


It was just yesterday. I have a major coyote problem at my house


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## xxshaelxx

So, funny story...

I was at work last night, and I was talking to some customers. I said something about P&G buying out the best kibble dog food on the face of the planet, and the lady goes "Iams!?" I was, like, 

Just thought you guys might get a kick out of that. hehe.


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## ziggy29

xxshaelxx said:


> I was at work last night, and I was talking to some customers. I said something about P&G buying out the best kibble dog food on the face of the planet, and the lady goes "Iams!?" I was, like,


Behold the power of marketing and big advertising budgets. So sad.


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## RCTRIPLEFRESH5

xxshaelxx said:


> http://www.wonderpuppy.net/LB082499.jpg
> 
> Eukaneuba - 1999
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Eukaneuba - 1998
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Not Iams, but still...


the 1999 looks better to mer??? although its hard to tell they both look bad?


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## kevin bradley

thanks RC...


In the spirit of open discussion....many who post on these forums haven't been completely objective in their assesment of what happens when a big company takes over a small Dog Food company....

I've always heard that Iams and Eukanuba were these great foods prior to PG taking them over. 

Nonsense. If those labels that RC dug up are accurate, simply put...

THEY WERE NEVER GOOD FOODS!


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## buddy97

kevin bradley said:


> thanks RC...
> 
> 
> In the spirit of open discussion....many who post on these forums haven't been completely objective in their assesment of what happens when a big company takes over a small Dog Food company....
> !


-poorer quality control
-changes in suppliers to the lowest bidders
-increase use of even cheaper ingredients

an old label cant really tell the whole story about these things occurring. indeed, Iams/Eukanuba were never good...on the other hand, P & G has demonstrated what they believe constitutes "quality" in their current products, so it is not unreasonable to believe they will do something to the current Natura lineup to increase profit margins.

at the very best, they will leave everything alone and increase prices (for now)....but i wouldnt bet on it.


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## Ania's Mommy

kevin bradley said:


> thanks RC...
> 
> If those labels that RC dug up are accurate, simply put...


Not RC. It was xxshaelXX that dug 'em up. Just giving the proper credit, as I'm sure these were tough to find. :wink:


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## kevin bradley

my apologies. 

RC, quit stealing thunder out here:wink:


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## Lexielu

*switch*

Switch to Canine Caviar brand! They have higher quality grain compared to rice in Nutura and they use dehydrated meats! Better food and feeds cheaper! Switch!


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## malluver1005

Lexielu said:


> Switch to Canine Caviar brand! They have higher quality grain compared to rice in Nutura and they use dehydrated meats! Better food and feeds cheaper! Switch!


I no longer feed kibble, but I have to disagree here. IMHO, Canine Caviar does not compare to Natura products, especially EVO.

I think it's safe to say that most kibble feeders here feed grain-free anyways.


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## baggie

malluver1005 said:


> I no longer feed kibble, but I have to disagree here. IMHO, Canine Caviar does not compare to Natura products, especially EVO.
> 
> I think it's safe to say that most kibble feeders here feed grain-free anyways.


Pretty sure we have a spammer here. Check out the post in the raw forum. Comparing Canine Caviar with raw. Come on Lex, you gotta do better than that.


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## malluver1005

baggie said:


> Pretty sure we have a spammer here. Check out the post in the raw forum. Comparing Canine Caviar with raw. Come on Lex, you gotta do better than that.


Yeah, I did read that post. I new right away...


----------

