# Confused...... what to feed?!



## ajl (Aug 22, 2011)

Hi guys,

I'm really confused here. I've spent hours looking for some decent kibble, but I don't know what's "acceptable" anymore. The problem no.1 is that I live in central Europe and there's not many choices left. I've researched all available brands and narrowed it down to the ones I consider "good enough". Now I'd like to hear your opinion on these. If you have any personal experience it'd be great, too.:redface:
I can choose from the following: 
Orijen - prefer grain free ones
Acana - GF ones (or maybe duck+oatmeal)
Artemis Fresh mix medium large breed
Canine Caviar - GF ones (preferably duck or venison)
Now! adult
Earthborn Holistic

From the brands above, I've tried Acana Lamb&Apple - didn't work for us at all. CC lamb&pearl millet - fed as a puppy, refused to eat. EH Primitive Natural - worked for awhile, he was doing really good, but later on had loose stool. Orijen Regional Red - he seemed itchy on that one. Orijen 6fish - doing well on that one, just finishing the bag. Though, he's got one irritated eye -tearing etc. Not sure if it may be from Orijen. 

SO now I'm thinking what's next.... thanks to recalls etc. my choice is very limited. I could try different Acana/Orijen bag, but I'm a bit worried that my dog really might have an issue with their foods - some kind of allergy!? We only have EH primitive natural and coastal catch available over here and bc I've already tried Primitive Natural and now just finishing feeding bag of 6fish, I'd rather try something else. What would you choose amongst Artemis, Canine Caviar and Now! (http://www.petcurean.com/for-dogs/now-fresh/) ? Or would you choose something else from my list? None of these seem perfect to me, but I guess no dry dog food really is. 

PS: my dog is also very active and participating in dog sports, so something that would provide him with enough energy is welcomed, too.

Thanks for your time :smile:


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## SaharaNight Boxers (Jun 28, 2011)

What about Go! ? It's the other brand of Petcurean. I would choose that or Orijen out of your list.


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## Little Brown Jug (Dec 7, 2010)

I agree with Sarah. I am a huge fan of Petcurean which produces Go! and Now! I've only ever fed Go! but my dogs did excellent on it better then any other brand I've tried. From the look of it you've fed several Lamb varities, which haven't seemed to go over well with your guy. He seems to have done well on the 6fish, so maybe try Acana Pacifica or Wild Prairie? They also have a singles line (namely the Duck and Pear) that might work well but they aren't grain free. Orijen Adult doesn't have any lamb in it in. 

With Petcurean if you can find Now! You can probably get Go! ordered in if its not already in the store. I prefer the Go!, they've got one grain free variety called Fit + Free. They also have a singles type line, there is a chicken variety, duck variety and salmon variety but are not grain free.

I've heard good things about Earthborn but haven't ever fed it myself.


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## bernadettelevis (Feb 2, 2011)

i don't know where exactly you live, but "Wolfsblut" is a great kibble. It's a German brand and i don't know if you can get it where you live or if they ship there. But if i would go back to kibble this would be the one i would feed : Gesundes Futter für Hunde - Hundefutter Wolfsblut


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## dr tim (Mar 27, 2011)

One way to evaluate a food, better than most is to look at the ash levels in the food. A quality food should be under 7%. High levels of lamb or fish could take that a bit higher but this is a very good benchmark.


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## ajl (Aug 22, 2011)

So I take it that you consider Go! to be superior choice over Now? I checked it out again and realized that Now is made from fresh meat,so I guess it doesn't contain the same amount of meat as Go! I asked retailer about Go Fit+Free and he said that for some reason they didn't get straight answer from Petcurean and that they don't want to bring that one to EU.... at least not yet. hwell:

You may have a point with the lamb. Though, it's surprising since it's not common allergen.

Wolfsblut isn't available as for right now either. I always thought it was a bit overpriced, though. Thanks for the tip anyway.

So far I've got two votes for Go!.Thaks guys:smile:


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## Little Brown Jug (Dec 7, 2010)

Your right its not usually a common allergen but it happens. I knew a little beagle mix who had horrible allergies to lamb, duck and beef among other things like corn, so not unheard of. Just a little odd and unsuspecting. Poor girl used to chew herself into shreds. Are you willing/able to by from an online store? There are many people who buy online and have it shipped to them and many sites offer free shipping. Might be an option. If not I'd definately go for Orijen/Acana.


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## InkedMarie (Sep 9, 2011)

I'd go with Orijen and Go! Just wanted to say, your sheltie is gorgeous! How old?


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## ajl (Aug 22, 2011)

Little Brown Jug said:


> Your right its not usually a common allergen but it happens. I knew a little beagle mix who had horrible allergies to lamb, duck and beef among other things like corn, so not unheard of. Just a little odd and unsuspecting. Poor girl used to chew herself into shreds. Are you willing/able to by from an online store? There are many people who buy online and have it shipped to them and many sites offer free shipping. Might be an option. If not I'd definately go for Orijen/Acana.


You're right. I think it's possible. Though, maybe it could be different part of Orijen/Acana that bothers him?! I'll see if his eye gets fully alright after switching.
Oh definitely.... I mostly get dog food from online shops :biggrin1: Sadly it's the only way over here. Most of "brick-and-mortar stores" offer dry dog food like Purina,Eukanuba or Royal Canine. I'm lucky enough that supplier of Acana and Orijen for the whole country is located in the city only 16 kilometres far from my house. So at least that's convinient. :tongue1: But if I want another quality dog food I always have to use the internet :wink:





> I'd go with Orijen and Go! Just wanted to say, your sheltie is gorgeous! How old?


Thanks. I'll probably try the bag of Go! and then try different bag of Orijen. 
Thank you!  He's an amazing dog, real character. He's 2 years old.


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## InkedMarie (Sep 9, 2011)

ajl said:


> You're right. I think it's possible. Though, maybe it could be different part of Orijen/Acana that bothers him?! I'll see if his eye gets fully alright after switching.
> Oh definitely.... I mostly get dog food from online shops :biggrin1: Sadly it's the only way over here. Most of "brick-and-mortar stores" offer dry dog food like Purina,Eukanuba or Royal Canine. I'm lucky enough that supplier of Acana and Orijen for the whole country is located in the city only 16 kilometres far from my house. So at least that's convinient. :tongue1: But if I want another quality dog food I always have to use the internet :wink:
> 
> 
> ...


What's his name? I'm a sheltie person tho I do not have one now.


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## ajl (Aug 22, 2011)

InkedMarie said:


> What's his name? I'm a sheltie person tho I do not have one now.


You should get one  His name is really complicated and written differently in our language, but it's equivalent to "I seek you Leader". We even pronounce it the same, only it's written differently. We call him "Icy" and few other nicknames. :wink:

To stay on topic - which bag of Acana/Orijen/Now/Go worked best for you and your dog? Which one would you recommend?


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## InkedMarie (Sep 9, 2011)

ajl said:


> You should get one  His name is really complicated and written differently in our language, but it's equivalent to "I seek you Leader". We even pronounce it the same, only it's written differently. We call him "Icy" and few other nicknames. :wink:
> 
> To stay on topic - which bag of Acana/Orijen/Now/Go worked best for you and your dog? Which one would you recommend?


I lost my last two shelties over the last two years, unfortunately. We have two dogs now, my husband does not want a third which is the only reason for no sheltie! 
I used Acana Pacifica and Orijen 6 fish with great success, also used one of the Acana's, one with a green bag but I can't remember the name! I've never used Now! or Go! only because it's not available around here. I like the ingredients so I'd use any of them. In fact, if your dog can eat Orijen, Acana, Now and Go, use them all! Rotation is great, switch it up!


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## monster'sdad (Jul 29, 2012)

ajl said:


> Hi guys,
> 
> I'm really confused here. I've spent hours looking for some decent kibble, but I don't know what's "acceptable" anymore. The problem no.1 is that I live in central Europe and there's not many choices left. I've researched all available brands and narrowed it down to the ones I consider "good enough". Now I'd like to hear your opinion on these. If you have any personal experience it'd be great, too.:redface:
> I can choose from the following:
> ...


Dr. Tim's is the way to go if you compete with your dog. The foods you mentioned in your intro are all gimmicks.


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## DDBsR4Me (Jan 23, 2012)

InkedMarie said:


> also used one of the Acana's, one with a green bag but I can't remember the name!


Acana Grasslands comes in a green bag


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## SaharaNight Boxers (Jun 28, 2011)

monster'sdad said:


> Dr. Tim's is the way to go if you compete with your dog. The foods you mentioned in your intro are all gimmicks.


Just ignore this. You might know, but we have major Dr. Tim's advocates every so often.


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## ajl (Aug 22, 2011)

> In fact, if your dog can eat Orijen, Acana, Now and Go, use them all! Rotation is great, switch it up!


Thanks. I think that's what I'm gonna do - rotate these. I'm a bit paranoid and have hard time trusting any concrete brand, so I like the idea of rotating. 
PS: Sorry to hear you lost your shelties. They're small dogs, but have a great brave heart. Always make me smile. 



> Acana Grasslands comes in a green bag


is that a lamb one? I think I'll try some bag from Acana GF formulas..... I'm thinking Wild Prairie (chicken + fish) since I suspect lamb doesn't work for my boy too well.



> Just ignore this. You might know, but we have major Dr. Tim's advocates every so often.


It's funny.... if he/she bothered to read the whole message properly, he/she would know that I'm from Europe and we don't even have Dr. Tim over here lol
Only thing they got right is that we compete haha.


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## 6Goldens (Aug 3, 2012)

"It's funny.... if he/she bothered to read the whole message properly, he/she would know that I'm from Europe and we don't even have Dr. Tim over here lol
Only thing they got right is that we compete haha"

I believe Dr Tim ships all over the world. I know he ships to Iraq, for example. Just because Dr Tim advocates come on here and irritate some, it doesn't take away from the fact that DT makes a very fine product. My Rocky is doing great on it.


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## ajl (Aug 22, 2011)

You might have a point...... Europe is kind of indefinite term. But I think I clearly stated that only available good quality dry dog foods that I can get over here are the brands that I mentioned in my first post. It's possible that Dr. Tim is available in other EU countries, but I definitely didn't find it here. :wink: I don't know anything about Dr. Tim so I'm definitely not judging the food. Thanks for your time anyway.


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## monster'sdad (Jul 29, 2012)

SaharaNight Boxers said:


> Just ignore this. You might know, but we have major Dr. Tim's advocates every so often.


Because it is one of, if not the single best, you can buy.


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## monster'sdad (Jul 29, 2012)

ajl said:


> You might have a point...... Europe is kind of indefinite term. But I think I clearly stated that only available good quality dry dog foods that I can get over here are the brands that I mentioned in my first post. It's possible that Dr. Tim is available in other EU countries, but I definitely didn't find it here. :wink: I don't know anything about Dr. Tim so I'm definitely not judging the food. Thanks for your time anyway.


Is Farmina available where you live? It is an Italian brand that gets high marks.


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## ajl (Aug 22, 2011)

I checked dogfoodadvisor and Dr. Tim's got 5 stars, so I believe it's not a bad kibble. It doesn't matter though. I can't get it over here.
Do you mean Cibau when you mention Farmina? I could get Cibau over here, but all (as I remember) formulas of Cibau contain corn, which I don't want in my dog's kibble.


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## monster'sdad (Jul 29, 2012)

ajl said:


> I checked dogfoodadvisor and Dr. Tim's got 5 stars, so I believe it's not a bad kibble. It doesn't matter though. I can't get it over here.
> Do you mean Cibau when you mention Farmina? I could get Cibau over here, but all (as I remember) formulas of Cibau contain corn, which I don't want in my dog's kibble.


Farmina has a line called N&D, in both a low grain and grain free. I have friends that use it and like it very much. It is considered one of the best in Europe.

If you are worried about recalls don't use Orijen or Acana. Bad track record.


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## SaharaNight Boxers (Jun 28, 2011)

monster'sdad said:


> Because it is one of, if not the single best, you can buy.


Anything with those ingredients is not going in my dog's body.


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## SaharaNight Boxers (Jun 28, 2011)

Orijen and Acana have one of the best records for recalls out of all kibbles. I still trust them.


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## KittyKat (Feb 11, 2011)

SaharaNight Boxers said:


> Orijen and Acana have one of the best records for recalls out of all kibbles. I still trust them.


Agreed... they do NOT have a bad track record. Far from it.


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## monster'sdad (Jul 29, 2012)

SaharaNight Boxers said:


> Orijen and Acana have one of the best records for recalls out of all kibbles. I still trust them.


You are kidding right? How many recalls? How many bags of moldy food that have not been recalled? Who put the first Mad Cow positive cow in dog food? I have friend who's dog almost died from a moldy bag of Regional Red. Confirmed that the food was not dried properly.

Answer the question how many recalls and importation bans?

The Cats Mother got to the bottom of this fantasy:

*"Hi everyone,

I'm from Sydney Australia and I was one of the owners whose cat was affected by the irradiated Orijen cat food in 2008. I'm the person that applied to the Australian Government to obtain the documents under the Freedom of Information Act to which an earlier poster referred . I'm not here to get into a debate (which is what usually happens when I enter a thread like this and post on other boards) about whether the Australian Government were to blame or whether Champion Petfoods were to blame for what happened to the cats. I can, though, provide some information about Champion Petfoods and I am particularly sorry to hear about something which seems to have happened to a dog on here called Satch, who is absolutely huggable. What a gorgeous face he has.

I was also interested to read the link posted above to Bedford Capital and thanks to the poster for providing that. I gathered there had been some changes at Champion and figured Muhlenfeld Snr had stood down/retired but hadn't got to the bottom of it. That was useful thanks. I've been following the "smokestacks" story quite closely in the various Edmonton newspapers online. Townspeople and the council have been pretty peed off with the stalling tactics, promises unfulfilled and deadlines broken. Their evasiveness and stalling and making all the right noises and being slow to follow through that is happening with the "smell" issue was exactly the same behaviour to which they subjected the cat owners in Australia. They delayed recalling the product for around three months as they just didn't want to believe it was their food. Meanwhile, while they prevaricated and travelled back and forth and talked to vets, more people were buying the product and feeding it to their cats. As the disease took about 3 months of feeding before it manifested, it meant that owners were unwittingly poisoning their cats even while Champion knew there was some kind of problem. They were very pedestrian about the whole affair and eventually there was a "voluntary recall" and they left the Australian market altogether. This made it very difficult to take legal action and their importer, a one-man-band, went to ground and was fiercely told by Champion to refer all enquiries on the topic to them. So he was unable to be sued as well, he would have just wound down his business. Believe me I worked on it for months and tried every angle. Some of us spent thousands of dollars on our cats and only got back from Champion's "compassion fund" a percentage of the outlay. This was particularly upsetting for those whose cats had died or who had them euthanised after expensive MRI scans and other investigative techniques without any diagnosis, in the early days before the link to the food was found. My cat was one of the "lucky" ones. She survived but has completely lost the use of her back legs and has a wheelchair and I have to toilet her 2-3 times daily. She's otherwise healthy now, but it's been a long, long haul and fights with Quarantine / Federal Govt etc. We managed to get cat food irradiation stopped though after many months of lobbying and providing scientific evidence of studies proving the link between irradiated cat food and demyelinisation of the long nerves causing paralysis.

The first of these studies was published in Ireland in 2007 and it is to the Australian Government's shame that they were not on the ball enough to be following the science in areas to do with such a controversial treatment as irradiation. So the studies were out there in 2007 yet the import licence for Orijen pet food was issued in 2008 under the condition of irradiation. I could write reams about my correspondence with the Australian Govt on this topic, I pursued them for nearly two years but they have good lawyers and deep pockets and are protected by legislation. I went to the Ombudsman and only last month was that finally resolved - the Ombudsman's office did their best for me but any claim for compensation has been knocked back yet again. They like to keep saying they relied on recommendations by the World Health Organisation. So the WHO is the next on my list.

Back to Champion: Yes they like to say their product is all fresh Canadian produce, as one poster has observed it's as if some guys go out in oilskins every day personally catching the fish for them from these fresh Canadian streams. Well, as the FOI documents show, there was a supplier of render from Kentucky for the manufacture of Orijen. I expect most readers would be aware of what goes into render.

On the night my cat was diagnosed, by which time the food had been recalled and the vets knew the cause, I rang Peter Muhlenfeld and had a discussion with him for over an hour about the sequence of events. He told me over and over they did not know their product had been irradiated until it was on Australian retail shelves and they got the invoices from their Australian importer for thousands of dollars and asked "what is this for" and were told it was for irradiation. He swore the first they knew of it was in August 2008 when those invoices arrived on his desk. This was why I applied for the shipping documents under FOI. The documents show email exchanges between their Australian importer, called Roland Lobo and Australian Quarantine. Quarantine clearly spell out the requirements and the options: the food must undergo further treatment before entry to Australia because the cooking temperature during manufacture is too low (risk of exotic pathogens entering Australia) and must be further moist heat treated or irradiated in order for an import licence to be granted. Moist heat is unsuitable for dried kibble so two options remain: irradiate or withdraw application for import licence (go away and forget importing the product into Australia). Let's be clear about this - this isn't a case of a shipment being sent all the way from Canada and sitting in Sydney port in 2008 and Australian Quarantine refusing to release it unless they irradiate it, this is August 2007 and Roland Lobo is finding out what he has to do to import the product ahead of time. Quarantine have told him it is the importer's responsibilty to check that irradiation is suitable for their product. It is the first Friday in August 2007. By early the following week Roland is back emailing Quarantine to say Champion have agreed to the irradiation. Evidently they took a weekend to research the issue and think about it.

What I am saying is that Peter Muhlenfeld told me they didn't know anything about the irradiation until August 2008. And yet the documents show that Roland had discussed irradiation with them in August 2007. Whether those discussions were by telephone or by email I do not know. the only documents I have are those from the Government, not the private commercial documents between importer and manufacturer.

Champion were extremely difficult to deal with throughout the whole process, kept ignoring us in the hope we'd go away, made promises they clearly weren't going to keep without us writing and phoning and shaming them far and wide over the internet into keeping and washed their hands of us all just six months after the recall, many of us left with ongoing expenses or considerable financial loss and dead cats.

Would I trust this company to go down the road and buy me a loaf of bread?

I'll leave you to draw your own conclusions."*


More:


http://www.wherearethepetfoodchampions.com/web/Orijen_Recall.html


The one I like best is the company that sells Champion fish by products that were formerly thrown away but Champion decided to by it all.


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## monster'sdad (Jul 29, 2012)

SaharaNight Boxers said:


> Anything with those ingredients is not going in my dog's body.


You don't have much background in this so I didn't expect a learned response. You like reading labels and probably don't understand much of what is in those foods and why. I bet you are caught up on "brown rice flour" you probably don't know why such a fine grind is used.


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## SaharaNight Boxers (Jun 28, 2011)

monster'sdad said:


> You don't have much background in this so I didn't expect a learned response. You like reading labels and probably don't understand much of what is in those foods and why. I bet you are caught up on "brown rice flour" you probably don't know why such a fine grind is used.


I'm not caught up in it. There are certain lines I draw and feeding things with grain, corn, wheat, and flours crosses that line. I watched Duke have chronic ear infections for the first year and a half of his life because he was on a grain inclusive food. Switch to grain free and it mostly cleared up. 

I would like to say I do understand what goes into kibble and why. I don't understand though why you act like you're the only one who knows what they're talking about and the rest of us are confused and lost. I also can't stand it. 

From what I've learned about grinding the finer you grind something the more potentially nutritious it becomes. Hence why corn, rice, etc. is ground so dogs can maybe get some nutrition out of them. 

And how do you know what background I have? Or any of us? What's yours?


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## SaharaNight Boxers (Jun 28, 2011)

And as far as Orijen and Acana if you don't like it ok whatever, I dot care. Feed you animals whatever. Just stop pettishly trying to ruin the reputation of their company. They make a great food for lots of dogs and cats.


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## DaViking (Sep 27, 2011)

Man, be careful about who you listen to on the net. Some might not know the difference between wheat and buckwheat. Some might even advice others publicly you shouldn't feed a food containing buckwheat because of wheat allergy concerns. Just sayin'

Dr. Tim's looks like a really good alternative for those who can get their hands on a bag. Making statements like "I'm not putting that into my dog" or similar about Dr. Tim's formula and ingredients is completely nonsense. There is absolutely zero evidence, in science or in practical use, that potatoes and legumes are better or more appropriate than various grains, regardless of level of processing. Zero evidence. They have different properties that can be exploited for some special uses, that's all. Some day maybe manufacturers can come up with grain free formulas that rival and perform as good as many grain inclusive formulas do. I am far from convinced we are there today.

Individual dogs can develop issues related to all kinds of foods, ingredients and nutrients, including grains, various produce and chemical compounds unique or abundant in legumes.


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## SaharaNight Boxers (Jun 28, 2011)

DaViking said:


> Man, be careful about who you listen to on the net. Some might not know the difference between wheat and buckwheat. Some might even advice others publicly you shouldn't feed a food containing buckwheat because of wheat allergy concerns. Just sayin'
> 
> Dr. Tim's looks like a really good alternative for those who can get their hands on a bag. Making statements like "I'm not putting that into my dog" or similar about Dr. Tim's formula and ingredients is completely nonsense. There is absolutely zero evidence, in science or in practical use, that potatoes and legumes are better or more appropriate than various grains, regardless of level of processing. Zero evidence. They have different properties that can be exploited for some special uses, that's all.
> 
> Individual dogs can develop issues related to all kinds of foods, ingredients and nutrients, including grains, various produce and chemical compounds found in legumes.


That was a long day. What I meant more of was that I wouldn't want flours in a food. Again, just my opinion. I've said it before, I don't like potatoes. Legumes I'd be more inclined to accept, but I'm still not a fan. 

To me Dr. Tim's isn't something I see as a good alternative.


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## ajl (Aug 22, 2011)

> Farmina has a line called N&D, in both a low grain and grain free. I have friends that use it and like it very much. It is considered one of the best in Europe.


Thanks for the tip. I found out that one shop really carries N&D and it doesn't look half bad. Might be good one to include in my rotation. 
About Orijen&Acana..... sorry I don't believe that recall about Australia proves something. I don't even bother reading it, because I've heard good explanation from different sources and it's a lot different from other recalls.

It became a bit heated over here. Just want to say I appreciate all your comments and passion you put into it. :grouphug: Thank you all


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## ajl (Aug 22, 2011)

When monster's dad mentioned N&D grain-free from Farmina, I took a closer look. Does anyone have tried that one? Do you know if dog food in Italy goes through some kind of control? 
If you take a look at this, what do you think? 

Boar & Apple

Complete food for adult dogs.
Ingredients

Fresh boneless wild boar (22%), dehydrated boar meat (20%), potatoes, fresh boneless chicken, dehydrated chicken meat, chicken fat, dehydrated whole eggs, fresh herring, dehydrated herring, fish oil, fiber vegetable of peas, dried carrots, dried alfalfa, inulin, fructooligosaccharides, mannan-oligosaccharides, dehydrated apple (0,5%), pomegranate powder, dehydrated sweet orange, spinach powder, psyllium (0,3%), powdered blackcurrant (0,3%), powdered blueberries, sodium chloride, dried brewer’s yeast, curcuma root (0,2%), glucosamine, chondroitin sulfate.
Supplements per kg

Nutritional additives: Vitamin A 15000 UI; Vitamin D3 1500 UI; Vitamin E (Alfa-tocopherol 91%) 600mg; Vitamin C 150mg; Vitamin PP 37,5mg; pantotenic acid 15mg; Vitamin B2 7,5mg; Vitamin B6 6mg; Vitamin B1 4,5mg; Vitamin K3 (M.S.B. 53%) 1,5mg; Vitamin H 0,38mg; folic acid 0,45mg; Vitamin B12 0,1mg; choline chloride 2500mg; Lutein 5mg; Beta-carotene 1,5mg; Zn-zinc chelate of the analogous methionine hydroxylase 910mg; Mn-manganese chelate of the analogous methionine hydroxylase 380mg; Fe-ferrous chelate of glycine hydrate 250mg; Cu-copper chelate of the analogous methionine hydroxylase 88mg; Se-selenomethionine 0,80mg; DL-methionine 3000mg; Taurine 1000mg; L-Carnitine 300mg. Organoleptic additives: aloe vera extract 1000mg; green tea extract 100mg; grapeseed extract 100mg. Technological additives: Sepiolite 10000mg; antioxidants: rosemary extract.


Typical Analysis
Cálcio: 1.40%
Ceneri grezze: 8.80%
Condroitina: 900.00mg/kg
Fibra grezza: 2.60%
Fosforo: 1.00%
Glucosamina: 1200.00mg/kg
Oli e grassi grezzi: 18.00%
Proteine grezze: 40.00%
Umidità: 9.00%
Omega 3: 0.90%
Omega 6: 3.30%
EPA: 0.30%
DHA: 0.50%
Energy EM: 3686.00Kcal/Kg
Energy Kg: 15.40 Mj/kg


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## SaharaNight Boxers (Jun 28, 2011)

It looks great to me. Kind of reminds me of Acana.


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## ajl (Aug 22, 2011)

That's what I thought.... it reminds me Acana/Orijen a bit. They sell it for the same price as Orijen, too. 

This ingredient worries me, though --->> Technological additives: Sepiolite 10000mg (E562) Any thoughts on that? I just read that it's approved to use in EU, but I'm not sure if that's safe and why it's even there


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## LilasMom (Mar 10, 2012)

ajl said:


> That's what I thought.... it reminds me Acana/Orijen a bit. They sell it for the same price as Orijen, too.
> 
> This ingredient worries me, though --->> Technological additives: Sepiolite 10000mg (E562) Any thoughts on that? I just read that it's approved to use in EU, but I'm not sure if that's safe and why it's even there


Not sure exactly, but this article popped up. Not sure if it the same thing, :Lightsources.org- July 12, 2011 - Sepiolites characterized for first time paving way to synthesis

Cat litter now one step closer to being on your dinner table (Wired UK)

It seems to be an ingredient used to bind the food. It is also very absorbent of water. That would worry me, I wouldn't want anything else taking water away from my pet. Kibble is dry enough as it is, why add a clay that is used in cat litter?


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## DaViking (Sep 27, 2011)

It have several uses but one thing is for sure, it's a stool hardener. http://www.ima-europe.eu/fileadmin/downloads/publications/factsheets/Sepiolite_An-WEB-2011.pdf


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## ajl (Aug 22, 2011)

Hmmm. It doesn't really look like something you want to have in your pet's food. :suspicious:


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## SaharaNight Boxers (Jun 28, 2011)

ajl said:


> Hmmm. It doesn't really look like something you want to have in your pet's food. :suspicious:


If its way better than the other foods it may be something to over look. I don't know if I would, I need to look into it more.


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## ajl (Aug 22, 2011)

Since I can choose from other brands like Acana, Orijen, EH, Artemis and Go!, I guess it's not like waaay better than other brands. I asked one guy to take a look at it and analyze the food, so I guess I'll see what he found out.


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## DaViking (Sep 27, 2011)

Always ask yourself why someone found it necessary to add an ingredient that bind liquids. Maybe, just maybe these foods showed terrible results in real life trials without adding various liquid binders and mineral complexes.


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## DaViking (Sep 27, 2011)

SaharaNight Boxers said:


> If its way better than the other foods it may be something to over look.


It does not matter how many "high quality" animal ingredients a formula got if you need to use Bounty kitchen towels to soak up the poop.


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## SaharaNight Boxers (Jun 28, 2011)

DaViking said:


> It does not matter how many "high quality" animal ingredients a formula got if you need to use Bounty kitchen towels to soak up the poop.


Very true. I didn't think about the scenario you put. It's something I've never seen used before.


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## ajl (Aug 22, 2011)

I have to admit that it didn't cross my mind that they'd use it to "soak up the poop". That's what I love about this forum..... so many people, so many ideas and useful thoughts. I guess that even if that sepiolit couldn't hurt, it's still nothing too good to feed. Never mind, that leaves me with Acana or Go!


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## sirscarecrow (Sep 9, 2012)

First of all, European Controlling Agencies are world wide the best and most honest. That is a reason why in Europe everything is so expensive, because you have to pay for all the extra controls and extra checks etc. So if such an agency says Sepiolite is ok in pet foods, so it is ok and not a reason for people that got no idea, to draw conculsions such as "this is bad for dogs!" or "I want this to stay away from my dogs!!" because as you know and hopefully read, 99% of the people in here already eat, daily, Sepiolite without knowing. So relax a bit.

If the goal in here, is to find the best possible dog food for your pet, there is only one answer: Balanced, fresh diet, HOME MADE. You buy the ingredients, you make your dogs food. It is extremely time consuming, but Acana, Orijen, Wolfsblut, Go, Farmina N&D get nowhere CLOSE to your home made, balanced fresh dog food (that people easily mess up).

So, for people with not so much time, that are limited to choose from dry dog food, FARMINA N&D should not be excluded for having Sepiolite in it, because it says absolutely nowhere that it is a toxic or a danger to your animal.

Here is a website, in portuguese that shows the facilities in which Farmina N&D is made, it shows Italy, Brazil and Serbia and from the looks and description it seems more than professional and in the same levels as Orijen, Go, etc : Farmina Company | Farmina Pet Foods - Happy pet. Happy You.


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## Brian 6 (Jul 22, 2012)

Just a note about 'lamb'. It is not any less allergenic than other proteins. It was included in many of the early 'hypoallergenic' foods simply because it was a novel protein source, not because it was less likely to cause allergies.

The main thing to consider when you suspect that your dog has an allergic based condition is to switch to something that has a 'novel' protein source as far as YOUR dog is concerned.

Also be careful because many food companies use a common producer to mix their foods so if the food batch just before the food you chose has wheat fro instance in it, the mixers are not cleaned in between and their may be small amounts of wheat in your food even though it is not on the label.

This is where home cooking for a trial period is useful because you absolutely control what goes into your dog. Once you find ingredients that your dog is not allergic to then you can select foods based on those ingredients.

There are blood tests for food allergens but unfortunately they are not accurate so trial and error is still the only reliable way to see what is best for each individual dog.


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