# Hunting Dog Training Methods



## nortknee (May 5, 2011)

I know absolutely nothing about training a hunting dog but came across this video.

Gun Dog Training "Whoa" Part 1 German Shorthair at Willow Creek Kennels - YouTube

Is this a fairly common training practice for pointing breeds, or any bird hunting dogs?

Maybe I'm just a woose when it comes to training.


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## Julee (Jan 6, 2012)

That really irritates me. There are plenty of other reliable ways to train a "woah" that don't involve possible injury to the dog.


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## GoingPostal (Sep 5, 2011)

Seems most hunting training involves a stick to whack your dog with, an e collar if you've got more money, some ear pinching, never seen that stringing up your dog crap though. I love how they throw in some stroking the dog, looks nice for the vid but the dog is clearly not enjoying it a bit. Who want a dog so shut down and unhappy about training?


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## nortknee (May 5, 2011)

Oh crap.. I just realized this should have gone under the training section. Sorry Mods! 

In any event, I feel the same way. I'm no guru, but it seems like tugging on the poor pup seems more like rack torture than effective training to stand still.

I'd love to hear from anyone who's actually worked with hunting dogs...is this the accepted method?


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## Scarlett_O' (May 19, 2011)

That is DEFINITELY NOT how my dad use to train his hunting dogs, nor anyone he allowed to touch his dogs!

I know that a LOT of the trainers are more in for a fast turn over so that the dog is ready, but I wouldnt say it is just hunting trainers, but in general.


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## Aerodogs (Jan 14, 2012)

I don't own pointing breeds, but in training for upland that is not how I taught my labs, nor how most trainers (I am familiar with) teach a proper whoa. My good friend who has GSP's (two of which are field guides and have field titles) does more of a place board method and teaches the stand command, like stand for exam in obedience/show, and works from there by getting his hands on the dog and guiding them into proper position. In my opinion, you really should teach the behavior before using a tool to reinforce it.


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## KlaMarie (Dec 30, 2010)

Aerodogs said:


> In my opinion, you really should teach the behavior before using a tool to reinforce it.


Amen! What irritates me more than the teaching using corrections (which the dog seems to take fairly well anyway) is that she randomly uses a food reward, without a marker or anything. I really don't think the dog is actually associating the food reward with any behavior performed, which means the food reward is basically useless.


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## AveryandAudrey (Sep 20, 2010)

That was not cool, I would never do that to my dog. There is much better methods.


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## 1605 (May 27, 2009)

nortknee said:


> I know absolutely nothing about training a hunting dog but came across this video.
> 
> Gun Dog Training "Whoa" Part 1 German Shorthair at Willow Creek Kennels - YouTube
> 
> ...


As training methods go for hunting breeds, this is fairly innocuous. 

I find it odd that people are reacting to this as if there is some real danger to the puppy being hurt. How? At one point the dog is put on a small crate that looks to be about 1 foot off the ground. Is that what everyone is getting so excited about?

A hunting dog needs to be steady to wing & shot; to learn not to move at all either by command or by situation. This is the start of that process.


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## nortknee (May 5, 2011)

SubMariner said:


> As training methods go for hunting breeds, this is fairly innocuous.
> 
> I find it odd that people are reacting to this as if there is some real danger to the puppy being hurt. How? At one point the dog is put on a small crate that looks to be about 1 foot off the ground. Is that what everyone is getting so excited about?
> 
> A hunting dog needs to be steady to wing & shot; to learn not to move at all either by command or by situation. This is the start of that process.


No, no. At least for me, it wasn't particularly about safety but about the effectiveness of the training. The tugging/treating seems to be confusing, as least it would be to me, if I were a trying to be taught what to do.

I really appreciate your insight on this.


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## Maxy24 (Mar 5, 2011)

I have no volume on this computer so I'm only guessing at what she is trying to teach, it's like a stay command right? I feel like hunting folks just like to be physical with their dogs, there is no reason to use all that tugging and ropes, etc. to teach a dog to stand still. You can tell the dog is starting to shut down near the end there he starts avoiding looking at her where before he would look and wag at her approach, now his tail stays plastered to his butt. He comes back around when the treat comes out and you can finally see his body relax. Just like with most molding I feel like the dog isn't even thinking he's just scared stiff and that gives the trainer what they want. The dog looks completely confused, I'm sure he'll get it eventually, but I feel like doing this is a lot more work than just teaching the dog to stand still like teaching a stack for conformation. Using that crate to prevent too much movement and treats to reward for being still would have worked just fine. 

You will find most hunting dog training methods are very harsh, I don't consider what's in that video to be terrible compared to forced retrieves or using e-collars, but it's really unpleasant all the same. I feel like if she would have at least added in rewards for proper stance it would have been much more effective and at least been a little less miserable for the dog. It seemed like she was just using treats to keep from loosing him (shutting down completely), or as a signal for release. You can find hunters who don't treat their dogs that way, and I think I've heard of one book, but for the most part they use force and punishment. But I'm no hunter.


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## bridget246 (Oct 26, 2011)

I haven't used a e-collar before. I was planning on getting one later on when I could afford one and after we had a lot of more training. For me, the main use would be recall from a far distance. If the dog is out of hearing range which isn't all that far away if she is distracted then a small vibrating or noise should send her running back. Or, at least that is what I'm hoping for. Not really sure if the shocking part of it would even be needed.

Yea, my post was off topic. But still related to hunting.


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## bernadettelevis (Feb 2, 2011)

SubMariner said:


> As training methods go for hunting breeds, this is fairly innocuous.
> 
> I find it odd that people are reacting to this as if there is some real danger to the puppy being hurt. How? At one point the dog is put on a small crate that looks to be about 1 foot off the ground. Is that what everyone is getting so excited about?
> 
> A hunting dog needs to be steady to wing & shot; to learn not to move at all either by command or by situation. This is the start of that process.


because the dog learns nothing from this, it is only unpleasant. There are far better ways to train your dog to stand still.

And if i remember correctly you didn't train your dog yourself put gave him to a trainer, was this method used there??


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## 1605 (May 27, 2009)

Maxy24 said:


> I have no volume on this computer so I'm only guessing at what she is trying to teach, it's like a stay command right? I feel like hunting folks just like to be physical with their dogs, there is no reason to use all that tugging and ropes, etc. to teach a dog to stand still. You can tell the dog is starting to shut down near the end there he starts avoiding looking at her where before he would look and wag at her approach, now his tail stays plastered to his butt. He comes back around when the treat comes out and you can finally see his body relax. Just like with most molding I feel like the dog isn't even thinking he's just scared stiff and that gives the trainer what they want. The dog looks completely confused, I'm sure he'll get it eventually, but I feel like doing this is a lot more work than just teaching the dog to stand still like teaching a stack for conformation. Using that crate to prevent too much movement and treats to reward for being still would have worked just fine.


With all due respect, I think you are being a little dramatic in what you think the dog is "feeling" or "thinking". 

From my experience in training a gun dog I don't see "scared stiff"; I see a young dog being exposed to a new skill being unsure of what is going on because it's obviously very early on in the training. The method is really no different than in obedience when you put your dog on a sit-stay, walk a few steps in front of it, then tug a little on the leash. If the dogs advances, you put him back where he was & repeat the process until the dog stays put. The ultimate goal is to train the dog to stay put on command or "whoa". But in this case the stakes are a little higher because ultimately there will be birds flying around & guns going off. 




> You will find most hunting dog training methods are very harsh, I don't consider what's in that video to be terrible compared to forced retrieves or using e-collars, but it's really unpleasant all the same. I feel like if she would have at least added in rewards for proper stance it would have been much more effective and at least been a little less miserable for the dog. It seemed like she was just using treats to keep from loosing him (shutting down completely), or as a signal for release. You can find hunters who don't treat their dogs that way, and I think I've heard of one book, but for the most part they use force and punishment. But I'm no hunter.



I'm sorry, but you do not have a clue about training a gun dog. You are making blanket statements about "hunting dog training methods are very harsh... forced retrieves or using e-collars". I have seen people in obedience & conformation literally screaming at their dogs while jerking them around on their leads. Does that mean ALL people in THOSE disciplines are that way? Of course not! 

Our 4 1/2 yr old GSP is at CDX level in obedience, was #1 Amateur Gun Dog in Florida in 2010, and has one leg on his Master Hunter. We are hoping this year to finish his Amateur Field Championship, Master Hunter, and get him to Utility Dog in obedience. Meanwhile, the 8 month old GSP is starting obedience and has also been exposed to field work. He is also taking well to both.

You really need to tone down the rhetoric on this topic; you are not presenting a balanced or objective commentary.


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## bernadettelevis (Feb 2, 2011)

fact is what she uses to train this dog is coercion. The dog doesn't have a choice, and coercion has no place in dog training. 

As said there are far better ways to teach a solid stay


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## 1605 (May 27, 2009)

bernadettelevis said:


> because the dog learns nothing from this, it is only unpleasant. There are far better ways to train your dog to stand still.


I addressed this in my post to Maxy24. 



> And if i remember correctly you didn't train your dog yourself put gave him to a trainer, was this method used there??


Our dog was sent to a trainer for certain aspects of his training that we did not have the experience or equipment to handle. And even when we was "away", we were up every weekend to work with him & the trainer. 

A similar method was used with a "whoa board" and "whoa bench".


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## 1605 (May 27, 2009)

bridget246 said:


> I haven't used a e-collar before. I was planning on getting one later on when I could afford one and after we had a lot of more training. For me, the main use would be recall from a far distance. If the dog is out of hearing range which isn't all that far away if she is distracted then a small vibrating or noise should send her running back. Or, at least that is what I'm hoping for. Not really sure if the shocking part of it would even be needed.
> 
> Yea, my post was off topic. But still related to hunting.



When it comes to long-distance training, the e-collar is a useful tool. But the training methodology is much more involved than a way to "send her running back". PM me if you want to continue this off-topic discussion.


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## 1605 (May 27, 2009)

bernadettelevis said:


> fact is what she uses to train this dog is coercion. The dog doesn't have a choice, and coercion has no place in dog training.
> 
> As said there are far better ways to teach a solid stay


NO dog "has a choice" in ANY FORM of training. Because if it was THEIR choice, they wouldn't be trained! 

Is it "coercion" to crate train a puppy so he doesn't eliminate in your house? 

Is it "coercion" to train a child to eat with a knife and fork rather than her hands? 

Please, let's keep things in perspective...


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## Maxy24 (Mar 5, 2011)

> From my experience in training a gun dog I don't see "scared stiff"; I see a young dog being exposed to a new skill being unsure of what is going on because it's obviously very early on in the training.


I agree he is unsure of what is going on (which is why using punishment before teaching the dog what you want isn't the best idea), but is goes from just being unsure of being all tied up to being afraid of what's going on IMO, shortly before he gets put on the box and starts avoiding looking at the trainer and keeps his tail plastered down. I also don't think he's standing still because he knows that is what he's supposed to do, I think he's doing it because he's completely unsure of what he's supposed to do, so doing nothing at all is a safe bet. Actually teaching the dog (through rewards) what you want him to be doing would give him a lot more confidence because he wouldn't be clueless.
Obviously I can't say for sure what the dog is thinking, no one can, but his body language certainly doesn't scream "I'm enjoying this" and he doesn't look confident at all, he seems very nervous to me. The way he holds his tail, the way he wags is when she approaches, and eventually his sniffing and avoiding looking at her. No I don't think he's terrified out of his mind, but I think much of his standing still has nothing to do with KNOWING he should stand still, and more to do with being too worried about getting a correction to do anything at all. 





> If the dogs advances, you put him back where he was & repeat the process until the dog stays put


She's not just putting the dog back, she's giving collar corrections, it's not just placing the dog back where he's supposed to be, it's clearly supposed to be a punishment for moving. I am opposed to that sort of training (obviously).


And I in no way meant to say hunting dog are the only ones treated like that, I've seen plenty of dogs who are heavily punished or punished harshly that are not being trained for hunting. I also didn't say ALL hunting dog trainers are that way, but I do think it's more popular to use punishment and molding vs. more positive methods and someone will have a hard time finding someone who trains their gun dogs without physical corrections whereas in other venues there is usually a bigger split with lots of people on both sides.


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## Maxy24 (Mar 5, 2011)

> NO dog "has a choice" in ANY FORM of training. Because if it was THEIR choice, they wouldn't be trained!


That's not true. When a dog is rewarded for giving a certain response they certainly learn to thoroughly want to follow the command.


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## Payton Leeroy (Jan 8, 2012)

SubMariner said:


> The method is really no different than in obedience when you put your dog on a sit-stay, walk a few steps in front of it, then tug a little on the leash. If the dogs advances, you put him back where he was & repeat the process until the dog stays put. The ultimate goal is to train the dog to stay put on command or "whoa".


My issue with this is that you're setting the dog up to fail. Most people use a light tug on the leash to teach a dog to come to them, so telling a dog to stay, then tugging on the leash [and therefore telling the dog to come] seems completely counterproductive. In fact, I've never heard of anyone using this method to teach a dog to stay, as dogs can learn the command quite well without all the confusion.

What I don't understand with this video is why they felt that they had to resort to all of this equipment to start with instead of teaching the dog steps, such as stand and stay separately, then put them together, then teach the dog that as soon as you say whoa that they stop and stand there. Or even just use your hands to put the dog into position whenever they move like you would do with a sit and stay. Is there some need to rush with dog training for hunting compared to training for anything else?


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## GoingPostal (Sep 5, 2011)

Watching that vid just made me depressed personally, watching that dog struggle against the ropes is sad, watching her give up, even sadder. That dog is looking everywhere but at her trainer and she's not having a good time. I guess if you just want a robot dog to win you titles or act like a lump, that's your right but I prefer a dog who's happy to go train, who clearly adores their people. I'm not perfect, I don't expect my dogs to be and I'd rather teach them what to do right, then correct them over and over until they figure out what they are doing wrong.


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## bernadettelevis (Feb 2, 2011)

SubMariner said:


> NO dog "has a choice" in ANY FORM of training. Because if it was THEIR choice, they wouldn't be trained!
> 
> Is it "coercion" to crate train a puppy so he doesn't eliminate in your house?
> 
> ...


My dog has the choice to cooperate with me, it is my fault if he chooses not to....

If this training technique is not coercion what is then???

oh and comparing teaching to eat with knife and fork with this video??? Really???

my dog has many choices, i'm sorry for your dog if it doesn't have any choices.....


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## werecatrising (Oct 15, 2010)

I didn't watch the whole thing but what I did see seemed like a very strange way to teach a dog. It seems that dog was being forced to stay in one position. How is that teaching him anything? Awhile back i was having a hard time teaching Quinn to heel. I was nervous in group settings and inadvertently holding on the leash way too tight. The instructor told me he was having a hard time learning because he wasn't allowed to make choices. She had me hold only the handle of the 6 foot leash. Things went way easier from there. Since then I have noticed that my dogs seem to learn way faster when they are given the chance to make choices and are rewarded for making the right ones.


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## Dude and Bucks Mamma (May 14, 2011)

Coming from someone with no experience in training bird dogs...

To me, in my personal opinion, this method of training does not seem to be harmful to the dog nor all that distressing but her timing is definitely off. The dog picks up the idea fairly quickly but she would have gotten it much more quickly with proper timing. 

The downside I see to this method is the use of it in the hands of someone less sensitive to their dogs'... not "feelings" per se, but you get what I mean... I hope. I can see someone yanking much to hard on the lead out of frustration or someone tying up their dog so that both leads are taught to "teach the dog a lesson". Things like that happen all the time with horses. 

Done right and done carefully I can see this being a way to introduce the "whoa" but, IMO, there are too many people who would use it to inflict pain out of frustration with a dog.


For some dogs, you just can't wait until they "choose" to do the right thing and then reward them. Buck would NEVER come when called if he wasn't made to do it. There are FAR too many interesting smells to investigate. He can find an interesting smell anywhere. Sure, he gets rewards for coming when called even when I have to make him but I just don't see what good it does him to set him up for failure in a situation where he can be allowed to fail. 

I guess what I am saying is that I allow for mistakes during the learning process whether it be house training, or stay, or come, or heel, but ultimately, dogs don't have a choice. Buck doesn't get to choose whether he wants to be an unruly monster or a well behaved canine member of society. That's where I stand on dogs having a choice.


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## xchairity_casex (Oct 8, 2011)

i personally think its jsut too confusing for not only the dog but too difficult for the handler to pay attention to exactly what shes doing. just seems like all that stuff is really unneccesary.

IMO it seems like your teaching that dog that once its hooked up to all those ropes is when its to stand still not with the command seems like it would take longer to teach the dog to stand still useing the ropes then just the command in the first place.

do i think its cruel or harsh? not really i jsut think its not as effective.


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## KlaMarie (Dec 30, 2010)

Dude and Bucks Mamma said:


> To me, in my personal opinion, this method of training does not seem to be harmful to the dog nor all that distressing but her timing is definitely off. The dog picks up the idea fairly quickly but she would have gotten it much more quickly with proper timing.


Agreed. For me, to teach a behavior using corrections taking PERFECT timing, a whole lot of patience, and a dog who throughly understands what a correction means and how to turn off pressure. And even with all the right skills and techniques in place, I think it is much more powerful to the dog when teaching if they make the decision themselves to do a behavior and then you reward. 



Dude and Bucks Mamma said:


> For some dogs, you just can't wait until they "choose" to do the right thing and then reward them. Buck would NEVER come when called if he wasn't made to do it. There are FAR too many interesting smells to investigate. He can find an interesting smell anywhere. Sure, he gets rewards for coming when called even when I have to make him but I just don't see what good it does him to set him up for failure in a situation where he can be allowed to fail.
> 
> I guess what I am saying is that I allow for mistakes during the learning process whether it be house training, or stay, or come, or heel, but ultimately, dogs don't have a choice. Buck doesn't get to choose whether he wants to be an unruly monster or a well behaved canine member of society. That's where I stand on dogs having a choice.


At the end of the training process, my dog doesn't have a choice either. When first teaching a behavior, I start in a sterile environment where I can control everything, so that it's easier to teach using an inducive, reward-based system. But once I know she understands what "heel" and "come" mean, and I've shaped that same behavior around some distractions.......she is expected to do what I tell her whether she wants to or not, which is where the corrections come in. There is nothing more important to Rayne than biting the decoy. Praise from me, treats, toys....nothing. So she doesn't get a choice there, because I know what she would choose every single time, hence the need for corrections.


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## xchairity_casex (Oct 8, 2011)

> I haven't used a e-collar before. I was planning on getting one later on when I could afford one and after we had a lot of more training. For me, the main use would be recall from a far distance. If the dog is out of hearing range which isn't all that far away if she is distracted then a small vibrating or noise should send her running back. Or, at least that is what I'm hoping for. Not really sure if the shocking part of it would even be needed.


also just wanted to mention the vibration setting on e-collars is somthing you have to train them to use just like a clicker so dont think you can jsut turn your dog loose, call and vibrate dont work that way im sure the shock would if you had it up high enough but you dont want to achieve a dog whos fearful of going on walks so stick with the vibration it DOES work i have a sport dog e-collar for Cesar it has beep,shock and vibrate i only use the beep and vibrate but it took time to have him associate the sound or the feeling with what i was asking. but basically you do that training exactly like clicker training. you "mark" desierd behavior with the beep or vibrate then reward. SOME dogs (cesar was one of them) are nervous of the feeling of the vibration the first few times so to introduce them to it have a low vibrate setting let the dog sniff the collar all over and when the dog seems comfortable in sniffing it make it vibrate that will almost always get a dogs attention and they will begin sniffing it all over again dont put the collar on if they are nervous about it or are running away from it if they become fearful of it use treats or play while holding the collar near them once they are comfortable with it then put it on them even if that means taking 3 weeks.


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## 1605 (May 27, 2009)

Again, I think some people in this thread are becoming entirely too emotional about this training video.

Since none of us is there, we have no way of knowing exactly what type of temperament this dog has or how it usually reacts in a training situation. So to keep saying that the dog "looks unhappy" or "has its tail down so he must be distressed" are pure speculation and need to be removed from the discussion.

As I mentioned in one of my previous posts, this method is really not much different from the various obedience classes I have attended where the dog is put on a sit stay. Then the handler (lead in hand) takes a couple of steps in front of the dog, repeats the "stay" command, then tugs a bit on the leash. If the dog moves h/s is put back into position, then the sequence repeated until the dog IGNORES the outside stimulus of the tug on the leash when it is supposed to be staying in place. When the dog stays put despite the distraction, h/s is rewarded & praised.

The only difference is that in this instance the dog is kept from leaving the training area with a lead from behind. Since I am not there, I don't know the exact reason for this additional rope. I presume it's to keep the dog's attention focused on the training session instead of trying to go after any distractions it sees outside. Because believe me, hunting dogs WILL try to go after grasshoppers, lizards, butterflies, blowing leaves or anything else you can think of, their prey drive is that strong. And any training you try to do will be for naught because they will NOT be paying attention to YOU.

The next step in this progression will be the introduction of birds while the dog is on a whoa. The whoa is usually done on a board to give the dog a reference point. The handler has control over the dog with a check cord (long line). One or more tethered pigeons are then placed around the dog outside the confines of the board. They flap around & of course the dog wants to grab them. Every time the dog moves off the board, he is put back on & the whoa command repeated. When he stays put he is treated & praised. When he has this part of the training mastered, the next phase is to do it without the whoa board, with birds planted in a small area in a field course setting.


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## Chocx2 (Nov 16, 2009)

I have trained all four of my dogs, and have seen, used, and been told several ways of training. This looks simple, not hurting the dog, does the dog understand what its being taught, he or she will, when they are done. I am sure its all done with positive reinforcement. 

Remember these are working dogs, like mine. I have found different ways of training. Most of these dogs love doing what they do and get great enjoyment out of doing there job...And can't wait for the next interaction with training.

Mine are my pets first, then I train and play.


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## KlaMarie (Dec 30, 2010)

Chocx2 said:


> I have trained all four of my dogs, and have seen, used, and been told several ways of training. This looks simple, not hurting the dog, does the dog understand what its being taught, he or she will, when they are done. I am sure its all done with positive reinforcement.


The type of training shown in the video is not positivie reinforcement. Even though the trainer will give the dog a treat ever now and then (I think she is trying to relieve some stress and keep the dog from avoidance behavior), the way she is doing it is not a positive reinforcement method at all. She is teaching the dog to stand still using negative reinforcement (removing tension when the dog stands stills) and a very mild punishment (tugging on the dogs collar when it moves). 

I don't think the dog fully understands what the trainer wants right now, but eventually he will. 



Chocx2 said:


> Remember these are working dogs, like mine. I have found different ways of training. Most of these dogs love doing what they do and get great enjoyment out of doing there job...And can't wait for the next interaction with training.
> 
> Mine are my pets first, then I train and play.


I think you said something key here -- "working dogs". A dog is a dog, operant conditioning doesn't change.....BUT what types of training are effective will vary based on the individual dog. Training methods will also vary based on what is expected of the dog at conclusion of training. This dog is taking the corrections well. He is showing a little avoidance, a little stress but he isn't shutting down. He is still working, still learning through the stress. I'm assuming he is from working lines, and if so, he has been bred for generations to respond to stress and aversives in a certain way. This is not abusive to this dog at all. To another dog with a different temperament it could be, but this dog is fine. Personally, I teach a new behavior differently, but to each his own. 

I can second that working dogs love to work, even if there are stressors and punishment involved. My dog has to be exposed to some pretty intense pressure....anything from a man running at her with a water hose, hitting her with a stick, the sound of gun shots in her ear. And with her temperament, her training also involves appropriate negative reinforcement and corrections. But she woud go through all that and so much more because she just enjoys working so much. I can see it, she is never more happy, excited and fulfilled than when we are working.


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