# Just need to get something of my chest...



## woganvonderweidenstrasse (Nov 22, 2012)

Logan is always very friendly and ignores other people most of the time and just plays with his ball. This morning on our way back from training we walked past a man....I said good morning and the rude man didn't even greet me back, Logan ran past him with his ball still in his mouth and simply took a sniff at his pants...the next moment the man kicks him hard in his ribs! I called Logan to come to me and asked the man why did he do that? Did my dog bite him? Did he bark at him or hurt him in any way? No,the man just continued walking ignoring my attempts to talk to him. I eventually had to let it go and walk back home, but I was so angry I was shaking the whole way back. Why did he have to kick my dog? He is such a friendly dog and only a puppy, does it give him satisfaction to kick dogs just for the fun of it? I hate people like this, I wish I could report him to someone or do something about it. Just shows you how little respect some people have for animals. 

Oh and also; straight after he got kicked he yelped and immediately lunged back at the man barking and growling. What does this behavior mean?


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## Boxers&Pom's Mom (Jan 17, 2011)

Dogs know who likes them and who don't. I know! I think I will just go and kick him too and say How you like it, you like it? I had done that too. LOL ( to a family member)


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## Herzo (Feb 5, 2011)

Just an AH that's all. Maybe you should have him on a leash while walking back if there is these kinds of people around.

Doesn't sound like he is so shy to me he was ready to strike back.


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## Sprocket (Oct 4, 2011)

I would keep him leashed and not let him approach people like that to reduce the risk of rude people kicking him.


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## woganvonderweidenstrasse (Nov 22, 2012)

I suppose I could do that, but I feel sorry for him...my yard is not very big and the park is the only place he can run around to his heart's content. I will just have to keep an eye out and leash him if anyone approaches.


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## Chocx2 (Nov 16, 2009)

Some people are just AH's and have no social skills, those are the ones to stay away from, that pull guns on people, shoot up their co workers ect. Unstable. So feel lucky that you got away from him and next time you see him steer clear.


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## bett (Mar 15, 2012)

lots of folks, whether it's fear or hatred, just dont like unleashed dogs.
i think the guy was a beast but.....


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## Kassandra (Jun 6, 2012)

Yeah I definitely wouldn't have him off leash in public places. Too much chance for accidents to happen. I bring mine up to the back roads but still call them to me when I see another person so I can leash them because you just never know


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## meggels (May 30, 2010)

I let Abbie run around the sports fields next door but have her come back to me if we approach people, or we walk far enough away that she doesn't feel the need to go over to them.


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## 1605 (May 27, 2009)

Both our dogs are big runners and we usually let them off lead if the park permits it, However, even in the "anything goes" equestrian parks we will always call them back if other people or dogs approach. At that point we have them heel/lie down or put them on their leads. Not everyone likes dogs or wants to interact with them. Also, this is a good exercise in obedience for both the dog and the handler as ultimately you are the one responsible for your dog's behaviour.


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## Rvent (Apr 15, 2012)

What an AH I probably would have kicked him just on principal. Maybe keep him on leash and practice calling him to you as soon as people are in sight, treat him as soon as he comes this way he learn when people approach he comes to you, so he will do the same while off leash.


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## Savage Destiny (Mar 16, 2011)

woganvonderweidenstrasse said:


> I suppose I could do that, but I feel sorry for him...my yard is not very big and the park is the only place he can run around to his heart's content. I will just have to keep an eye out and leash him if anyone approaches.


You should be doing that anyway... It doesn't sound like this is a dog park where dogs are expected to be off leash. Some people don't like dogs or are scared of them, and some people are severely allergic. It's not fair to assume everyone will just love your unleashed dog approaching them. A lot of people are scared of GSDs, maybe the guy who kicked your dog was freaked out. 

I personally despise it when I'm out walking my dogs on their leashes, not in a place where dogs are supposed to be off leash, and a dog comes up to us. In that situation, heck yes I'll kick a dog to get it away from me, friendly or not. One of mine is NOT friendly, but doesn't react until her space is invaded. A kick is better than a dog fight.


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## woganvonderweidenstrasse (Nov 22, 2012)

Mmmm...I hear ya. Maybe I am a bit guilty of getting to relaxed sometimes. Well since the incident I've been carrying a stick with me at all times and also calling him back when I see people/dogs approaching. Not risking it again. He's recall is not that great yet, which is a problem, but we're working on it. Thank you all for your input, always great advice on this forum.


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## Savage Destiny (Mar 16, 2011)

I guess I'll be the bad guy here but... He shouldn't be off leash at all if his recall isn't that great. It's a huge risk to him. He can get plenty of exercise and run time on a long line at the park, but it's not good for him to be off leash at all if he doesn't come when you call immediately.


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## woganvonderweidenstrasse (Nov 22, 2012)

Savage Destiny said:


> I guess I'll be the bad guy here but... He shouldn't be off leash at all if his recall isn't that great. It's a huge risk to him. He can get plenty of exercise and run time on a long line at the park, but it's not good for him to be off leash at all if he doesn't come when you call immediately.


I see. Well how do I improve the recall? Currently I use treats (cheese or viennas) and reward him every time he obeys and comes when I call. But his response is not immediate and quick like I want it to be. Any suggestions on this?


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## creek817 (Feb 18, 2012)

Try this game (in a safe area) 

Dogs - Fast Recall Game - YouTube

If that link doesn't work (I'm on my iPad) search on YouTube for dogs - fast recall game.


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## 1605 (May 27, 2009)

woganvonderweidenstrasse said:


> I see. Well how do I improve the recall? Currently I use treats (cheese or viennas) and reward him every time he obeys and comes when I call. But his response is not immediate and quick like I want it to be. Any suggestions on this?


We started recall training by putting the dog on a lead, going to the end of it, and calling him: "Doggy come!" (Or "here" or whatever command you want to use; just be consistent.) 

If he doesn't start to come immediately, you begin reeling him in, repeating the command until he's right in front of you. Have him sit or not... your preference. Then you give him positive reinforcement (treats, praise). "Good come, Doggy! Good come!" 

You can increase the length of the lead and work with a run line or something similar... about 25' or so. When he starts to do it reliably you can start practising offline. Just keep the positive reinforcement/treating consistent. 

Our dogs are trained both for verbal & whistle commands for recall because the whistles are specially designed for long distances and work much better in the field. When they hear that whistle blown twice, they have been taught to return quickly.


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## woganvonderweidenstrasse (Nov 22, 2012)

SubMariner said:


> We started recall training by putting the dog on a lead, going to the end of it, and calling him: "Doggy come!" (Or "here" or whatever command you want to use; just be consistent.)
> 
> If he doesn't start to come immediately, you begin reeling him in, repeating the command until he's right in front of you. Have him sit or not... your preference. Then you give him positive reinforcement (treats, praise). "Good come, Doggy! Good come!"
> 
> ...



That's so cool - I hope I can get Logan like that one day. He comes, and I think he knows what the command means, but like I said his response is not always immediate and quick. And if he's playing with his ball you can forget about it, he will not come to you. I've been using the word "come" as the command, but thinking of changing it because we use it so often in everyday language without realizing, so he obviously hears it many times without having to respond to it - which I think is maybe part of the problem. I've been thinking to rather use the word "here" - but now I'm afraid it will sound to similar to the command "heel"? What do you think?


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## Kassandra (Jun 6, 2012)

I train my dogs to come exactly how SubMariner did. To the actual words "Charlie Here" or "Remi Here", as well as a whistle (one that I make, not a real whistle you buy) while out in the field (each dog has their own special whistle), and also a loon call (I do it myself with my hands). It can be tricky when using so many commands though, so do the actual word first. Then when you want to add a whistle, say the word and then do the whistle right after. That's how I did it anyways. I use "Here" for come, not sure how it would affect the "heel" command though, I use "walk nice" for heel.


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## doggiedad (Jan 23, 2011)

your dog shouldn't be running to people and sniffing them. teach your
dog to ignore people and other animals. sorry your dog got kicked.


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## 1605 (May 27, 2009)

woganvonderweidenstrasse said:


> That's so cool - I hope I can get Logan like that one day. He comes, and I think he knows what the command means, but like I said his response is not always immediate and quick. And if he's playing with his ball you can forget about it, he will not come to you. I've been using the word "come" as the command, but thinking of changing it because we use it so often in everyday language without realizing, so he obviously hears it many times without having to respond to it - which I think is maybe part of the problem. I've been thinking to rather use the word "here" - but now I'm afraid it will sound to similar to the command "heel"? What do you think?


Hmm.... I thought I posted a reply to this but I don't see it. So forgive me if this is a duplicate. (Mods, please feel free to remove this msg if it is.)

Our dogs have been field & obedience trained. "Here" was used by the Pros we sent them to for field work, so we tend to use it when they are out there. Also, it seems to carry over further distances than "come". 

However we do use "heel" in both the field and the obedience ring, and they seem to have no problems distinguishing between "heel" and "here". In fact, at the Master Hunter level in Hunt Tests, you are not allowed to touch your dog at all. So the handler must heel the dog away after a find or after a stop to flush. (As opposed to collaring your dog away, which you are allowed to do in field trials.)

To add even more "confusion", is the term "front", which is used in the obedience ring when you are recalling a dog either with a dumbell, off a down during recall, etc. That command requires a very specific response from the dog: that he come directly to and sit squarely in front of you. Not to move until you either use the release word, or tell him to do a "finish" or "heel" (come to the heel position on your left).

Confused yet?


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## woganvonderweidenstrasse (Nov 22, 2012)

SubMariner said:


> Hmm.... I thought I posted a reply to this but I don't see it. So forgive me if this is a duplicate. (Mods, please feel free to remove this msg if it is.)
> 
> Our dogs have been field & obedience trained. "Here" was used by the Pros we sent them to for field work, so we tend to use it when they are out there. Also, it seems to carry over further distances than "come".
> 
> ...


mmm....and the other confusing thing is that many commands, or ways of doing things that I read about in books or see on traingin dvd's differ from how we train at the club with my trainer. For instance with the come command the dog should sit in front without having to give him a "front" command. Of course this is not practical in real life situations so we just practise the recall, sometimes rewarding him for coming and sometimes rewarding him only when he's sitting correctly in front, so that the dog never knows what is coming. Your body language is usually all that is required to show the dog whether he should sit in front or not. Anyway I think I'll change to the "here" command, cause this morning again I caught myself using "come" in a casual manner without realizing. Thank you for the great advice!


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## Kassandra (Jun 6, 2012)

woganvonderweidenstrasse said:


> sometimes rewarding him for coming and sometimes rewarding him only when he's sitting correctly in front, so that the dog never knows what is coming.


As soon as I read this all I could think was "wrong wrong wrong"! You have got to be consistent with what you are asking from him. You can't sometimes treat him for one thing and sometimes for another if it is the same command. Talk about confusing! Shepherds are smart dogs. They are not going to confuse the two commands. Use different words for different things. Not only will it be less confusing, likely it will be quicker as he has no idea if you just want him to come or if you want him to sit in front of you. Of course, just my opinion but I can't begin to imagine how confusing that would be.

And yes, I do feel it is different in the obedience ring and in the field for bird dogs, for example. In the field they know they have a job to do and can distinguish the difference between the commands, rather than if I were in the same place trying to get them to do different things for the same command.


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## woganvonderweidenstrasse (Nov 22, 2012)

Kassandra said:


> As soon as I read this all I could think was "wrong wrong wrong"! You have got to be consistent with what you are asking from him. You can't sometimes treat him for one thing and sometimes for another if it is the same command. Talk about confusing! Shepherds are smart dogs. They are not going to confuse the two commands. Use different words for different things. Not only will it be less confusing, likely it will be quicker as he has no idea if you just want him to come or if you want him to sit in front of you. Of course, just my opinion but I can't begin to imagine how confusing that would be.
> 
> And yes, I do feel it is different in the obedience ring and in the field for bird dogs, for example. In the field they know they have a job to do and can distinguish the difference between the commands, rather than if I were in the same place trying to get them to do different things for the same command.


That is why I say it is confusing...we do it differently at the club. I think the reasoning behind it is say for instance you recall the dog from a distance and use the command "come" - you want him to come in hard and fast, not anticipating that he will have to sit in front - if you make him sit in front every time you call him he will anticipate it and his recall will be slow and reluctant. But if you change it up so that he never knows what is coming, he will always come in fast. They do this when searching the blinds as well...the agitator is always hiding behind a different blind so that the dog cannot anticipate where he is and is forced to search all the blinds. But I here what you are saying...I'll speak to my trainer this weekend and hear what he has to say about it. But like you said the training disciplines between different dogs sports are vastly different. At the moment I use "Logan come" if I want him to come to me, and my body language is casual; if I want him to sit in front I use just "come" and stand up straight with my hands in front. Do you think this is enough for him to differentiate between the 2? He seems to understand what I want.....I dunno, I'm super confused now....


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## 1605 (May 27, 2009)

woganvonderweidenstrasse said:


> That is why I say it is confusing...we do it differently at the club. I think the reasoning behind it is say for instance you recall the dog from a distance and use the command "come" - you want him to come in hard and fast, not anticipating that he will have to sit in front - if you make him sit in front every time you call him he will anticipate it and his recall will be slow and reluctant. But if you change it up so that he never knows what is coming, he will always come in fast. They do this when searching the blinds as well...the agitator is always hiding behind a different blind so that the dog cannot anticipate where he is and is forced to search all the blinds. But I here what you are saying...I'll speak to my trainer this weekend and hear what he has to say about it. But like you said the training disciplines between different dogs sports are vastly different. At the moment I use "Logan come" if I want him to come to me, and my body language is casual; if I want him to sit in front I use just "come" and stand up straight with my hands in front. Do you think this is enough for him to differentiate between the 2? He seems to understand what I want.....I dunno, I'm super confused now....


You are starting to overthink this & make it VERY complicated.

1) Determine exactly what you want the dog to do. Sometimes visualization helps. 
2) Work towards achieving that goal.
3) Be consistent. Use the same terminology and training/treating techniques throughout the process.
4) Be positive in your tone, body language, etc.

You need to sort out exactly what you want the dog to do and how you want him to do it.


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## Kassandra (Jun 6, 2012)

That should be enough to differentiate. I use hand signals with my dogs too and they seem to understand pretty well. If it is working for you then by all means keep it up! I just assumed that you were having trouble with it and Logan might not be able to understand what you want if you are using the same command for many things. But now since you've explained that it just seems like he is being stubborn and wants to test you (as pups will usually try to do).


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## woganvonderweidenstrasse (Nov 22, 2012)

Just want to say thank you to all you experts. Someone posted a link of a youtube video of a game you play with your dog...moving backwards, say "Logan come" and throw the treat between your legs and repeat a few times. It's been working really well...I've only been doing it a couple of times and already his recall is much faster. Another important thing I read is that you must make yourself more interesting than anything else out there, so I've been using treats and his balls and most times he is completely ignoring strangers and even other dogs when they walk past. So thank you, all your advice has really been very helpful as always. 

Submariner, you are right - I have a tendency to over think things, especially when it comes to my dog...I always want to do things perfectly right! But this is not realistic; since this is my first working dog, and first time I'm training a dog for competition, I'm learning as much as Logan. He is a teacher to me as much as I am to him. 

Kassandra, just yesterday I read an article written by a GSD trainer about the phases a young dog goes through - and it says exactly what you said above... the 4 - 6 month period is the rebellious stage...were the will challenge you and refuse to do thing they previously did flawlessly, think of a teenager,  But as stated above its already improved a lot, so we'll keep working on it. Thank you!


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## Kassandra (Jun 6, 2012)

It's great that you have found something that is working! It's mostly a lot of trial and error. Some things don't work for some dogs and it can take a while to find something that does. Just like people, dogs learn differently :smile: Walking/running backwards or in the opposite direction has never failed with me, though. I would never chase a dog. It seems like they think that you are playing a game of "zoomies" (that's just what I call it, my dogs love chasing each other around and boy are they fast). So I would never chase them, they chase after me. That being said, they are dogs and I am aware they are dogs and their recall is not perfect. When we are out and about they never fail to listen but if we are hiking in the middle of nowhere or on our own property they don't come that 1/1000 times. So I always have something super irresistible (aka orange hockey ball) in my pocket. They are still young and I can tell it has been getting better as they age. Charlie hasn't ignored my calls in over 4 months and while Remi still needs a lot of work, I have to remember that we only rescued her a few months ago and before then she got little-no training (she knew sit but only if you had something tasty) and minimal human contact so it is more of a challenge with her. You'll do great if you keep it consistent and positive :smile:


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## RawPitbulls (Feb 7, 2013)

It is TOTALLY wrong what he did. But I would recommend keeping him on a leash unless you are in your yard (in a fence). It would protect your dog. Besides, are there not leash laws where you are?


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