# Raw Food Stunts a Puppy's Growth?



## parsonsv (Feb 20, 2015)

My bichon shih tzu puppies are 9 months old and have suffered from itchy skin since I got them at 3 months. I've tried a number of things with the vet, including three flea treatments (though there was no evidence of fleas), two rounds or steriods, two rounds of antibiotics, treatments for other parasites (though again, no evidence), etc, etc, etc,

Finally, the vet told me that perhaps there might be an allergy to food and I should find a food with an uncommon protein. She suggested her hydrolized food.

Anyway, I went off to visit a natural pet store, and we discussed moving the dogs to a raw food diet. I wanted to eliminate all possible allergens to see if there really is a food allergy, so I selected patties made by Carnivora, which only contain the whole duck. There is nothing else in the patty. I also bought some algae (or some type of green) for the food, but nothing else at the moment. I'm isolating right now.

We've been doing this for 2 weeks. So far so good. The boys love the food, but since we're still on antibiotics I'm not sure yet if it's working.

Regardless, I visited the vet, and when I told her about the food switch, I receive some awful feedback. Besides the regular caution that I might be exposing the dogs to salmonella, e coli, and other illnesses, the vet also said, "You can put them on that diet, but they are only puppies yet, so you'll be stunting their growth. If you're ok with that, keep them on the food."

WHAT?!

Has anyone ever heard that?


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## MollyWoppy (Mar 19, 2010)

Oh good God! Nope, haven't heard this one. As long as the diet is balanced the pups will do just fine. My two have, and so have countless other pup's I know that started out on PMR.
I'm not familiar with the pre-made raw you mention, but they do contain meat, bone and organ, right?


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## parsonsv (Feb 20, 2015)

*food deets*



MollyWoppy said:


> I'm not familiar with the pre-made raw you mention, but they do contain meat, bone and organ, right?


It's finely ground entire animal carcass. It's the entire animal. (carnivora.ca)

I went with them because I like their philosophy:

_Carnivora buys a variety of live animals directly from small-scale producers. The animals we choose must be healthy, disease-free and raised following natural management and feeding practices that are free from harmful additives, antibiotics or hormones. We purposely avoid feedlot and factory farmed animals. The animals we purchase are slaughtered at regulated and approved abattoirs, then prepared and packaged into the final product the Carnivora presents to you.

Carnivora does not add supplemental vitamins, minerals, herbs, botanicals or other non-nutritive substances to our Whole Animal diets. Instead we encourage you to supplement or add dietary options that is specific to your cat or dog, their breed and their lifestyle._​


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## Rvent (Apr 15, 2012)

I have heard a lot of crap about what vets think how raw will harm a dog, but that is a new one. Its funny how the vet is ok with three flea treatments, two rounds of steriods, two rounds of antibiotics, treatments for other parasites all with no evidence, and not give a bit of concern to how that effects a puppy. I had the same issue with Macy, when I first rescued her from NYC ACO she had bad skin issues and that was the first thing my vet did also, and came to the same conclusion about food allergies, turns out it is more environmental than food.... I use raw local honey, ACV and a few other remedies it helps...


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## parsonsv (Feb 20, 2015)

Rvent said:


> urns out it is more environmental than food.... I use raw local honey, ACV and a few other remedies it helps...


Honestly, I think we might be dealing with environmental as well, at least to some extent. How do you use those remedies?


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## Rvent (Apr 15, 2012)

I give a capful of Braggs ACV 3 times per week, I also give raw local honey once a week... I give nettle tea once or twice a week starting in spring, I also give wild blueberries once a week in spring.


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## naturalfeddogs (Jan 6, 2011)

The risk of salmonella and e coli are actually higher in kibble, because of how slow it digests. Everything just sits there for so long and gives that stuff time to set up. With raw, it moves on through fast and is rarely ever a problem.

Raw slows puppy growth, but won't stunt it. Slow growth is a good thing, especially for large breeds. But they will always get to their full size. 

When it comes to nutrition, vets just don't have the knowledge.


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## InkedMarie (Sep 9, 2011)

I hate scare tactics like that.


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## Kritter (Jan 9, 2015)

parsonsv said:


> Regardless, I visited the vet, and when I told her about the food switch, I receive some awful feedback. Besides the regular caution that I might be exposing the dogs to salmonella, e coli, and other illnesses, the vet also said, "You can put them on that diet, but they are only puppies yet, so you'll be stunting their growth. If you're ok with that, keep them on the food."
> 
> WHAT?!
> 
> Has anyone ever heard that?


You may want to consider finding a new vet if she is that alarmist. I started feeding my youngest dog homemade raw at 5 months because she was responding poorly to kibble. She eats a combination of mostly homemade raw, a little commercial raw, raw meaty bones, and a small amount of kibble. She's a year and a half now and got a solid bill of health last month, although my vet is not a raw advocate. 

The only thing I would look at is the Carnivora formula. If it's prey model 80/10/10 a lot of people feed successfully on that. You will definitely want to add other proteins as time goes on to provide variety, as well as adding one oily fish meal (or omegas and vitamin e) per week. The best thing you can really do is read as much as you can and form your own opinion because only you live with your dogs and the results will show in their energy, coat, smell, poops


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## naturalfeddogs (Jan 6, 2011)

InkedMarie said:


> I hate scare tactics like that.


And that's all that is. Just to make you keep feeding their foods from the clinic, and to make you feel guilty if you don't.


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## InkedMarie (Sep 9, 2011)

naturalfeddogs said:


> And that's all that is. Just to make you keep feeding their foods from the clinic, and to make you feel guilty if you don't.


I feed ground raw. We have a new vet; when she asked about diet, she didn't blink an eye. One of mine is getting a dental tomorrow; all dogs are supposed to be completely vaxxed including lepto & bortadella; he's not. She had to talk to the practice manager to get the okay for his dental.


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## naturalfeddogs (Jan 6, 2011)

InkedMarie said:


> I feed ground raw. We have a new vet; when she asked about diet, she didn't blink an eye. One of mine is getting a dental tomorrow; all dogs are supposed to be completely vaxxed including lepto & bortadella; he's not. She had to talk to the practice manager to get the okay for his dental.


That's ridiculous.


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## InkedMarie (Sep 9, 2011)

naturalfeddogs said:


> That's ridiculous.


A former vet changed the rules at her clinic and if a dog had to stay for any reason (dental, surgery, testing etc), they had to be completely vaxxed. We didn't stay long after that. I'm just glad Boone can get his dental tomorrow, without being "up to date" on vaccines.


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## Sgrecco (Jan 29, 2014)

I have a solution! Find a new vet. You need to have someone that is on board with you. As long as the meal is balanced, they will thrive and grow just fine. I know some breeders down here that wean their pups to a raw diet right from mom (mom was fed raw too) and they are the healthiest pups I have EVER seen. Don't get yourself down just because 1 person talks down about it. I have been feeding raw for a while and just recently my friend was asking me about switching her dog to it. I walked her through it and gave her some tips but then she stopped because her "vet tech" neighbor told her to stop. Her and I had a nice civil debate later on about feeding raw and she eventually agreed that it's the best way to go. Just because someone is in the veterinary profession doesn't always mean they know jack about nutrition. This makes a lot of us raw feeders angry because we spend months researching and years perfecting our pups diet. Everyone is different but we all agree that kibble is crap and that is was only invented as a cheap alternative to the natural diet and one that wouldn't spoil from storing it for months on end. Back in the day, people didn't have the freezer/fridge space to put food for their dogs and quite frankly, dog's weren't as high on the totem poll as they are today. Kibble was a way to be able to buy in bulk and be able to store. Dogs come from wolves and what do you think wolves eat in the wild? Kibble off the kibble tree?  Nope, raw meat, bones and organs. Dogs digestive systems are no different than a wolf. The PH and acidity in their gut can handle all sorts of bacteria. Which is why they can eat chicken and not get salmonella while us humans probably would. I have seen wolves eat a couple day old deer carcass and experience no ill effects. I could go on and on so long story short....keep up what you are doing. Let us know if you have questions and find a new vet! LOL


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## MollyWoppy (Mar 19, 2010)

I was told by my vet, years and years and years ago, that I would kill my dog feeding PMR. Well, we still go there (other than the raw thing, he is the best vet ever), and every year we get the bloodwork and urinalysis and every time its been the best it could be. No dental ever. I'm determined to show him how a raw fed dog can live to 30!


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## Rvent (Apr 15, 2012)

MollyWoppy said:


> I was told by my vet, years and years and years ago, that I would kill my dog feeding PMR. Well, we still go there (other than the raw thing, he is the best vet ever), and every year we get the bloodwork and urinalysis and every time its been the best it could be. No dental ever. I'm determined to show him how a raw fed dog can live to 30!


Same here, my vet and I have been around the raw is dangerous tree way to many times, I have made my case, Babs is 15, she has been in CRF for almost a year, I have lowered her numbers by tweaking her diet, she has beat 3 different types of tumors and runs around chasing my 3 your old male like a pup, Vet doesn't say anything about raw anymore, case closed!


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## Shamrockmommy (Sep 10, 2009)

I guess I'll take the other side of the argument. (Not really trying to argue). So one of my puppies was raised on "raw." I used Sojos original grain mix as the base and mixed it up according to the directions. This pup was from my own litter, 7 puppies total and they all had been raised on Eukanuba puppy up until 9 weeks when they all went to their new homes except Darby (bichon) at the time I switched her over. 

Other puppies stayed on kibble. MY puppy developed severe bilateral hip dysplasia. She ate sojos for the first 4 years of her life and then I switched her to kibble. She has some pretty wicked x-rays. Lots of arthritis. At the time when I fed Sojos, it did NOT have a calcium source except for carob. When I asked about it before even buying the food for the first time, I was told "Dogs 'in the wild' don't worry about calcium." Uh, ok, but, everyone says raw is good and I needed convenient, so Sojos it was. 

So.. I guess this is completely anecdotal, but the raw diet done "wrong" CAN stunt or impede growth in my experience. NONE of the other puppies developed HD. 

If you do it, take your due diligence and make sure you do it right. If I had the inkling to feed raw again, I'd do it with something like Monica Segal's recipe books.


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## Sgrecco (Jan 29, 2014)

^^^^^^Agreed and this is why I make my own. Every dog is different and this way I am able to taylor my mixes for each of my dogs. Balance over time!!!!


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## Celt (Dec 27, 2010)

Feeding any food that's unbalanced can cause growth problems, even kibble can do this.


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## parsonsv (Feb 20, 2015)

Shamrockmommy said:


> I
> If you do it, take your due diligence and make sure you do it right.


I'm feeding PMR, but it's the whole animal (prey model) that includes the meat, bones, and organs ground into a patty. I mix into that whole animal powdered greens (algae or something) and fish oil. That's all I'm doing.

Am I missing something?


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## MollyWoppy (Mar 19, 2010)

As long as it's roughly 70-80% meat, 10-20% bone and 5ish% organs and you often vary the proteins you'll be fine. You'd do even better if you could feed some bone in meat now and then, it will keep the teeth clean. You could also add a whole raw egg now and then too. I add a touch of coconut oil now and then as well as sardine/salmon oil if I can't get hold of fish.


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## Sgrecco (Jan 29, 2014)

My only suggestion is make sure you mix up the different types of protein. Whole animal is the way to go...bone, organ, meat.


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## parsonsv (Feb 20, 2015)

MollyWoppy said:


> As long as it's roughly 70-80% meat, 10-20% bone and 5ish% organs and you often vary the proteins you'll be fine. You'd do even better if you could feed some bone in meat now and then, it will keep the teeth clean. You could also add a whole raw egg now and then too. I add a touch of coconut oil now and then as well as sardine/salmon oil if I can't get hold of fish.


Just got an answer back from Carnivora:



> beef elk and bison approx 70% meat 16% bone and 10% organs.


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## Dude and Bucks Mamma (May 14, 2011)

This is an older thread, I know, but I thought I'd add in that my two are both raw fed from puppyhood and are not stunted. Iorveth is actually 60 lbs and solid muscle while most of the Standard Xolos I know are 50-55 lbs and shorter than him, even those from American bloodlines (American Xolos tend to be taller and leaner while Mexican Xolos tend to be shorter and stockier). So, while genetics is heavily involved with size, it is very clear to me that, done right, a raw diet will not stunt a dog's growth as mine is a little larger than the average Standard Xolo.


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## InkedMarie (Sep 9, 2011)

I met a Xolo at a dog show last month. Very nice dog. Dude & Bucks mamma, I'm sorry you lost Dude. My condolenses.


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## MollyWoppy (Mar 19, 2010)

I didn't know you lost Dude. I'm so, so sorry, I really am. xxx


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## Dude and Bucks Mamma (May 14, 2011)

Thank you, both of you. It's been a rough week. It feels like someone else is taking care of him temporarily, but he'll be back soon. It's so odd and empty. 

InkedMarie, how big was it? I am personally a fan of the Standards while I am very picky about the Miniatures and Intermediates. Did you find out the name of the dog? I know quite a number of the Xolo community so it would be interesting to find out who it was. It's a community full of very nice people. 

Also, an interesting note to keep it on the topic of raw, feeding raw is actually pretty common among the breed. I don't know if Xolo people keep our breed's feral roots in mind so it doesn't seem so farfetched to them or what, but it's really interesting.


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## InkedMarie (Sep 9, 2011)

I believe she was a standard or intermediate. Her name *may* have been Erin, Emily...? The show was in Maine so assuming she was from the Northeast. I have pics on fb but can't share them here.


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## Dude and Bucks Mamma (May 14, 2011)

Oddly, I don't think I know a whole lot from that particular area. I'll have to see who I know and if anyone has one with a name like that. The Bayshore dogs come from that area... New Jersey, I believe. They are most noted for Armani, their nice male who's represented the breed repeatedly at Westminster. A friend of mine bred her bitch to him and got a nice litter of pups.


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