# Victoria Stilwell tsk tsk



## mischiefgrrl (Oct 28, 2010)

Normally I like her but I just saw an episode where she told the owner of a morbidly obese chihuahua that her high protein diet is making her dog aggressive and that she needs carbohydrates. :frown:


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## xxshaelxx (Mar 8, 2010)

*thumbs doooooooooooown!!!*


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## rannmiller (Jun 27, 2008)

Wow how disappointing! What was she feeding the dog?


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## mischiefgrrl (Oct 28, 2010)

The owner was feeding her lamb chops and fillet mignon  in human size servings.

Victoria told her she could feed the dog spaghetti. Seriously.


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## rannmiller (Jun 27, 2008)

well if she just cut back on her portion sizes, that would be pretty darn good for the pup, provided she gave bone too :biggrin:

it's so funny how people think dogs should eat pasta and whatnot. Although I hear that Italian wolves often prepare it in the wild all the time :wink:


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## naturalfeddogs (Jan 6, 2011)

I liked her, but my son, Kirby never has. Now I think I may have to agree with him.:frown:


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## 3Musketeers (Nov 4, 2010)

I saw it too, it aired at like midnight. I like her traiing methods but I was rather dissapointed by her comment on dogs needing carbs.
The chihuahua was a little pudgy, but only cause it ate waaay too much XD.


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## Mia (Oct 4, 2010)

Never heard of that show?


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## 3Musketeers (Nov 4, 2010)

Rye&Ted said:


> Never heard of that show?


It's on Animal Planet sometimes, called:
It's me or the Dog.


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## lmgakg (Jan 1, 2011)

My daughter watches that show all the time. However, she's 9, and I don't think she even sees anything other than the dogs on the show!!!! She loves animal planet and anything to do with dogs.


Was the owner just as obese as the dog???? And - why in the world would anyone tell anyone who is obese that they need a plate of spaghetti?????? That is insane all on its own!!! Spaghetti = obese, especially at human-sized portions for a little itty bitty dog!


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## JayJayisme (Aug 2, 2009)

I lost all respect for Victoria Stilwell after watching the episode mentioned deep in this thread where she recommended euthanasia for an out-of-control aggression case that was caused *completely* by the hapless and stupid owners of the dog.

http://dogfoodchat.com/forum/dog-training/3944-regarding-alpha-debate.html

RIP Benjy.


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## naturalfeddogs (Jan 6, 2011)

I have seen a couple of episodes where she has mentioned the possibility of euthanasia. She's not that great a trainer.


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## Cliffdog (Dec 30, 2010)

I saw that episode this morning. It was bad. I don't like her training methods that much either. She thinks any correction is horrible and evil. I like the show because I like seeing bad dogs get turned around- but I don't necessarily like the woman herself. I guess it's the thought that counts though; she's doing what she THINKS is right.


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## mischiefgrrl (Oct 28, 2010)

What I like about Victoria is that she is honest with the owners and why their behaviour is affecting their dog. She has some very good points and tips and in many case is spot on with her methods. I don't think anyone is a supreme expert on dogs or nutrition. I think this forum gets it right by the collaborative effort. 

Parenting, whether it be dogs or children doesn't have any concrete answers. We all have our preferences and styles. I think the important thing is to actually have some common sense and TRY to do the right thing. The owner on that show was like many parents I've seen, spoiling her dog and not realizing she was hurting it by doing that. The poor pup was obese, aggressive and terrified of everything. 

I won't watch The Dog Whisperer at all. I think terrifying any living being into submission is the wrong thing. One of my colleagues did a news piece with him and his methods did not work at all on the colleague's Australian Shepherd. She was extremely anxious around other dogs, as Aussies sometimes are. His answer was to put her into a pen with 30 other dogs and leave her in there. Poor girl scaled the 9 ft fence to get out, she was absolutely terrified. My big fear is spiders, locking me in with a room full of them and telling me I had to stay until I wasn't afraid of them anymore would NOT do the trick!


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## RawFedDogs (Jun 16, 2008)

Cliffdog said:


> I saw that episode this morning. It was bad. I don't like her training methods that much either.


Victoria is a super trainer. Her methods are as good as anyone I've seen and 100 times better than CM who doesn't know crap about how to really train a dog. All he knows how to do its use pain, coersion and fright to break and dog into submission. You will not see Victoria resort to any of these cruel unnecessary methods.



> She thinks any correction is horrible and evil.


She is pretty much right. I wouldn't go so far as to say "horrible and evil" but I will say they are bad adn terribly unnecessary. Why would you put a dog in pain, scare him, or otherwise hurt him mentally, physically, or psychologically if you can get the same behavior without doing ANY of those? Using such methods just shows lack of knowledge about animals in general.



> I like the show because I like seeing bad dogs get turned around- but I don't necessarily like the woman herself. I guess it's the thought that counts though; she's doing what she THINKS is right.


She is doing what IS right. You will never see her cause pain or discomfort to any animal she works with. She is knowledgable enough to get the job done without it.

I have heard of a lot of Cesar's dogs reverting to their old ways as soon as he is gone.

BTW: Victoria is a great trainer. She is not a nutritionist by any means.


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## Cliffdog (Dec 30, 2010)

That's like saying you should never spank a child.

Once a dog KNOWS a command, and refuses to do it, I firmly believe that the dog should be corrected. I believe in teaching a puppy with calm, positive, encouraging methods, but when the dog knows what he is supposed to do, if he chooses not to do it, there should be consequences, such as a quick snap of the collar. There has to be a balance. Forcing a dog to the ground and depriving him of breath like Cesar is awful and cruel, not to mention dangerous. But your dog needs to RESPECT you also, as a leader. MOST dogs require correction, even if it's just a sharp "No!" Victoria disagrees and I just don't subscribe to that method.


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## SamWu1 (Oct 15, 2010)

Victoria is a good trainer, Cesar uses a more primitive approach. Victoria is a dog trainer while Cesar is more of a dog behaviorist. With that being said, I like Cesar's methods. Victoria almost always uses treats as the primary distraction factor when a dog displays bad behavior.



RawFedDogs said:


> I have heard of a lot of Cesar's dogs reverting to their old ways as soon as he is gone.


Because the owners are inconsistent and show no leadership. If you were stranded out in the woods and the people you were with knew no survival tactics, you're not likely to follow them. If it was an experienced woodsman, you would feel more confident to follow their lead. If the woodsman abandoned you, it's likely you'll revert back to what you thought was best.

I trained one of my friend's high strung, dog aggressive boxer. After one week, she no longer pulled, jumped on people and was responsive to verbal corrections when she started to feel inclined to lunge at other dogs.

My friend was not consistent with the direction I gave him so she reverted back to being an uncontrollable, dominant animal. After not seeing her for a year, I ran into them while walking Kane. At first she was barking and hopping up like crazy but I gave her a firm verbal correction and she sat down and submitted to me.

I just believe some people are not suitable dog owners, if you're weak willed, get frustrated easily or is lazy, get a cat, they're wonderful pets as well.


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## SamWu1 (Oct 15, 2010)

Cliffdog said:


> Once a dog KNOWS a command, and refuses to do it, I firmly believe that the dog should be corrected. I believe in teaching a puppy with calm, positive, encouraging methods, but when the dog knows what he is supposed to do, if he chooses not to do it, there should be consequences, such as a quick snap of the collar. There has to be a balance. Forcing a dog to the ground and depriving him of breath like Cesar is awful and cruel, not to mention dangerous. But your dog needs to RESPECT you also, as a leader. MOST dogs require correction, even if it's just a sharp "No!" Victoria disagrees and I just don't subscribe to that method.


Exactly. Your dog can never be your equal, it just doesn't exist in the natural world. You can bribe and "trick" your dog into behaviors with rewards but ultimately, a dog needs to respect you as leader and do as you command because that's your job as the pack leader.


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## RawFedDogs (Jun 16, 2008)

SamWu1 said:


> Exactly. Your dog can never be your equal, it just doesn't exist in the natural world. You can bribe and "trick" your dog into behaviors with rewards but ultimately, a dog needs to respect you as leader and do as you command because that's your job as the pack leader.


Oh baloney. Thats the old out of date alpha dominance stuff. That crap went out of date years ago. The knowledgable trainers of today don't need those old methods. It has been proven that the Alpha wolf does not dominate the pack. He leads it.

I have 2 Great Danes. The 10 1/2 year old hasn't been "corrected" in 6 or 7 years. I have a 6 year old that hasn't been "corrected" in his life. Both are very very well behaved and perform every behavior I ask of them. 

During the last 5 years of my professional training career, I didn't even use a leash to train dogs unless I was teaching something like loose leash walking which made a leash kinda necessary. I trained aggressive dogs and "high strung" dogs the same way I trained regular dogs.

Yes, dogs need a leader, mentor, and teacher. They don't need a BOSS. Here is something I found a couple of months ago that sums up my relationship with all dogs I have worked with for many years now.

_Every pet needs a human who can lead. Not like a boss, but like a partner in a dance—someone who gives clear signals, rewards desirable behavior as it occurs, removes rewards for inappropriate behavior immediately, and sticks to the plan consistently until the new, good behavior is a habit._
Dr. Sophia Yin 
Meet Sophia | Dr. Sophia Yin, DVM, MS

Learn to do that and you are a real dog trainer.


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## Cliffdog (Dec 30, 2010)

The thing is, you're looking at it as if there's ONE right way. Like with children, there are various methods of upbringing that work.

There is more than one way to train a dog. I train my dog in a balance of positives and negatives, and everything's turned out fine for me. Do I think that Victoria Stilwell can't train dogs with her 100% positive method? No! I just don't like it (for me) and don't do it myself.


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## mischiefgrrl (Oct 28, 2010)

I don't use physical punishment on dogs or children. My dog is the friendliest dog ever - He makes friends everywhere he goes and is a favorite in my building. My daughter is 19, going to college and living with me. I never had to worry about her doing typical things that other teenagers (myself included) did. She did the right things because they were the right things, not because she feared punishment. 

My dog does the right things because he is rewarded for it and wants to make me happy.


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## SamWu1 (Oct 15, 2010)

RawFedDogs said:


> Oh baloney. Thats the old out of date alpha dominance stuff. That crap went out of date years ago. The knowledgable trainers of today don't need those old methods. It has been proven that the Alpha wolf does not dominate the pack. He leads it.
> 
> I have 2 Great Danes. The 10 1/2 year old hasn't been "corrected" in 6 or 7 years. I have a 6 year old that hasn't been "corrected" in his life. Both are very very well behaved and perform every behavior I ask of them.
> 
> ...


I'm not suggesting that a pack leader needs to dominate its subordinates nor have I ever encouraged any type of physical or harsh correctional methods. I do believe that a pack has members with different ranks and the leader of that particular pack makes important decisions to ensure the best survival for that group of animals.

I think perhaps there is a misunderstanding between you and I of what a "correction" is? Because you say your 6 year old has never been corrected his entire life, does that mean he has never misbehaved or do you use another term to describe the technique that you utilize if he does something wrong?

Because it seems as you and I were on the same page, be the dog's mentor, use correct timing, reward desirable behavior, etc. but there's some sort of confusion surrounding what to do when a dog exhibits undesirable behavior i.e. chewing on inappropiate items, jumping up on people, exploring refuse, trying to dart out the door and so on.

I don't bully a dog with physical punishment to obey commands, It's ineffective and it damages the trust the animal has for you. What Dr. Yin is saying is agreeable but like I've mentioned before, either in the corporate world or a sports team, I believe in the dog world there is rank, doesn't mean that my supervisor or my football coach is going to abuse me, it just means he's my superior and I need to heed his word, not like it lessens his worth or mine, it's team work.


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## RawFedDogs (Jun 16, 2008)

Cliffdog said:


> There is more than one way to train a dog. I train my dog in a balance of positives and negatives, and everything's turned out fine for me.


If there is more than one CORRECT way to train a dog, they would all contain nothing but positives with no pain, coersion, or domination.



> Do I think that Victoria Stilwell can't train dogs with her 100% positive method? No! I just don't like it (for me) and don't do it myself.


Oh YES, she definately can. I know she can because I can and have been for 8 or 9 years. You have a lot to learn about training. I suggest you watch her show more and try to learn from her instead of critisizing her. There are literally thousands of trainers in the U.S. today training w/ 100% positive methods.

I was where you are many years ago. I used all the jerk & pull methods. The corrections. Pinch collars. Choke chains. I began with strictly corrections. Then I "balanced" positive & negative. Then I learned a better, more productive, safer, kinder way and have used that method ever since. There is no room for physical corrections in the positive training world. There must be 100% trust by the dog that no matter how bad a mistake he makes, nothing bad will happen to him. Once you gain that trust, you will have an unbelievable bond between you and your dog. A bond that you can't have when you use harsh corrections.


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## RawFedDogs (Jun 16, 2008)

SamWu1 said:


> I'm not suggesting that a pack leader needs to dominate its subordinates nor have I ever encouraged any type of physical or harsh correctional methods. I do believe that a pack has members with different ranks and the leader of that particular pack makes important decisions to ensure the best survival for that group of animals.


It has been discovered by Dr. L. David Mech, considered by many as the top wild wolf researcher in the world, that wild wolf packs are comprised of a Daddy wolf, more commonly known as the Alpha Male, and the Mama wolf, more commonly known as the Alpha Female. ALL the other members of the pack are their offspring. Rank between them would be similar to that of brothers and sisters in the human world. It is fluid and everchanging depending on the circumstances. I have lived in a multi-dog house for 20 years and have noticed that one or the other dogs will be higher ranking depending on the circumstances and which is more confident in that particular situation. It was constantly changing but I could often tell before hand which would be in charge depending on what we were going to be doing.



> I think perhaps there is a misunderstanding between you and I of what a "correction" is?


After reading this post by you, there very well could be. Normally when I hear a person using the word "correction" in the context of dog training I picture the old jerk & pull method.



> Because you say your 6 year old has never been corrected his entire life, does that mean he has never misbehaved or do you use another term to describe the technique that you utilize if he does something wrong?


What it means is when he is doing something improper, I will tell him "no", or "stop", or tell him something else to do. All of these are done in a normal tone of voice with no physical or mental threats. If he is confused I will go over to him and show him what I want him to do. All of this with a student/teacher attitude.



> Because it seems as you and I were on the same page, be the dog's mentor, use correct timing, reward desirable behavior, etc. but there's some sort of confusion surrounding what to do when a dog exhibits undesirable behavior i.e. chewing on inappropiate items, jumping up on people, exploring refuse, trying to dart out the door and so on.


My dogs are way past all those behaviors. Thor is my youngest and he is 6 years old and came to live her at 12 weeks. In today's world with them, timing just isn't all that important anymore. Of course timing is critical when you first begin training a dog. After he has lived with you several years and you have built that special bond, all you have to do is learn how to get across to him what you want him to do and he does it. Even today in unusual circumstances he will stop and think a few minutes trying to figure out what I am asking and it will finally sink in and he will do it.

Chewing is very easy to stop using very positive methods. All I did is when the dog has an inappropriate item in his mouth is say "no, no don't chew that, here chew this" and I put an appropriate item in his mouth. One of my early dogs was given to me because he was an uncontrollable chewer. I had him trained not to chew in 24 hours and he was one of my best dogs after that. :smile:

Jumping up on people is something you handle during training sessions, not when he is actually jumping up on people in the real world. Until he learns how to act, you don't give him an opportunity to jump up on someone by not allowing him to get close enough to jump up. Its really easy to teach when handled that way. 

If we are picturing refuse the same, I just don't see a problem with it. :smile:

Darting out the door is easy to fix during training sessions. 4 or 5 training sessions and that is fixed w/ most dogs. My dogs will stand just inside an open door and won't go out until I tell them to either with voice or hands. If I am going somewhere and taking one of the dogs with me, they both follow me to the door. I call one dog's name and he rushes out the door and the other waits inside with his head hung down in disappointment. :smile:

The time to teach desired behaviors is during training sessions, not when the real life situation presents itself.



> I don't bully a dog with physical punishment to obey commands, It's ineffective and it damages the trust the animal has for you.


Exactly. :biggrin:



> What Dr. Yin is saying is agreeable but like I've mentioned before, either in the corporate world or a sports team, I believe in the dog world there is rank, doesn't mean that my supervisor or my football coach is going to abuse me, it just means he's my superior and I need to heed his word, not like it lessens his worth or mine, it's team work.


I agree 100% as long as the supervisor or coach doesn't use intimidation as I have seen many use. I have found that once the dog learns you are merely teaching him how to live life, he will do what you say every time. All you have to do is make sure give him a clear message of what it is that you want him to do.

Yes, I think we are very close.


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## Cliffdog (Dec 30, 2010)

RawFedDogs said:


> Oh YES, she definately can. I know she can because I can and have been for 8 or 9 years. You have a lot to learn about training. I suggest you watch her show more and try to learn from her instead of critisizing her. There are literally thousands of trainers in the U.S. today training w/ 100% positive methods.
> 
> I was where you are many years ago. I used all the jerk & pull methods. The corrections. Pinch collars. Choke chains. I began with strictly corrections. Then I "balanced" positive & negative. Then I learned a better, more productive, safer, kinder way and have used that method ever since. There is no room for physical corrections in the positive training world. There must be 100% trust by the dog that no matter how bad a mistake he makes, nothing bad will happen to him. Once you gain that trust, you will have an unbelievable bond between you and your dog. A bond that you can't have when you use harsh corrections.


I just said that yes, she _can_ train with positive methods, but I just don't use her methods and they aren't right for me. Also, I don't use physical harm on my dog, and never said I did. I use vocal corrections (sharp 'no's and disapproving sounds). But I approve of prong collars (not choke chains) when used on a hard dog. I plan to train my APBT for Schutzhund and will very likely use a prong collar in the process. My sister's dog, Laine, a Rottweiler/AmStaff, was trained with a prong collar, and is tirelessly devoted to my sister, more than any dog I've personally ever seen.

So what do YOU do when your dog doesn't listen?


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## RawFedDogs (Jun 16, 2008)

Cliffdog said:


> I just said that yes, she _can_ train with positive methods, but I just don't use her methods and they aren't right for me.


Why not?



> Also, I don't use physical harm on my dog, and never said I did. I use vocal corrections (sharp 'no's and disapproving sounds).


Thats not positive. Telling a dog not to do something is not real effective unless you show him what you want him to do in that situation. See, thats a mistake a lot of novice trainers make. They spend a lot of time "correcting" a dog for doing the wrong thing but they neglect to show them the right thing to do. How is the dog supposed to know?



> But I approve of prong collars (not choke chains) when used on a hard dog.


My definition of a hard dog is a dog that the trainer doesn't know how to train. I have trained some very aggressive dogs using purely positive methods when the "hard" trainers failed. Its all in the trainers attitude. A "hard" dog is not hard with a trainer with a proper attitude.



> I plan to train my APBT for Schutzhund and will very likely use a prong collar in the process.


Why?



> My sister's dog, Laine, a Rottweiler/AmStaff, was trained with a prong collar, and is tirelessly devoted to my sister, more than any dog I've personally ever seen.


Dogs will act whatever way they need to in order to make their life more pleasant. If you are rough on him and he discovers you will be less rough if he makes you think he loves you, he will do that.



> So what do YOU do when your dog doesn't listen?


Don't know. It hasn't happened in years. In general, the advice I would give you when your dog does that is ... lets say you just told him to sit and he doesn't. I would stand right in front of him, look him in the eye and get him to look at you. You may have to call his name to get him to look at you. Once you have eye contact with him, say "sit" in a normal tone of voice, then wait. Continue waiting until he sits. He will in a minute or so because he will figure out nothing else is going to happen until he sits. In this case, I am assuming that he knows what "sit" means and he is just not listening to you. There is no need to use a harsh tone of voice or jerk the leash. That just teaches him he doesn't have to sit until you jerk.

One important hint: Don't ask your dog to do something until you have his attention. You can't blame him for not doing something if he never heard you. If he is distracted by something else, he won't hear you.


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## Cliffdog (Dec 30, 2010)

I teach my dog the command before expecting her to be able to do it. By "teach" I mean I show her what I expect her to do, and have her do it perfectly at least 50 times (yes, I count) before I start correcting her. She has done 'sit' about 100 times correctly. If she doesn't "sit" on command, now, she receives a sharp 'no' and does not get a treat. If she does something like chew shoes (poor girl LOVES shoes) she gets a 'no'. As soon as she stops chewing, she gets praise and something appropriate to chew on. She doesn't chew shoes anymore.

I commend you for training many dogs using positive methods. Doesn't mean that corrections are wrong to do. Like I said, there are many ways to train a dog. But I see that in this subject we will have to agree to disagree. :biggrin: I'm happy you have so much success with positive methods.


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## nikkiluvsu15 (Jun 9, 2010)

mischiefgrrl said:


> I don't use physical punishment on dogs or children. My dog is the friendliest dog ever - He makes friends everywhere he goes and is a favorite in my building. My daughter is 19, going to college and living with me. I never had to worry about her doing typical things that other teenagers (myself included) did. She did the right things because they were the right things, not because she feared punishment.
> 
> My dog does the right things because he is rewarded for it and wants to make me happy.


I could use the same analogy just a different spin :wink: I was spanked as a child and I don't think I do the "typical" teenager things... I'm 18, going to college and living at home and my parents don't have to worry about me doing the "typical" teenager things. I did/do the right things because they were the right things. Yes, I knew there would be consequences if I disobeyed, but I didn't "fear" punishment. I do know that some people take spanking way to far, but I also know that people take positive enforcement to far - you have to find middle ground, imo. What works for one, may not work for the other. 

On the subject of dogs...

Harleigh responds _quite_ well to positive training, though I do have to use corrections from time to time. Rebel on the other hand does not respond at ALL to positive training - he is to stubborn and has to have some sort of correction. Thats just what I've seen in my experience. If you have a dog that responds greatly to positive training, thats awesome, but please don't disregard corrections others have to use. (that last sentence was a general "you", btw!)


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## RawFedDogs (Jun 16, 2008)

Cliffdog said:


> Doesn't mean that corrections are wrong to do. Like I said, there are many ways to train a dog.


Please explain something to me that has me bewildered ... Since you know that you can teach your dog anytihng without yelling at it or otherwise causing it discomfort either physically or mentally or emotionally, why do you still insist on treating your dog that way? Yes you can get results with those methods but why subject your dog to such treatment? How do you think that makes him feel about you?


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## Cliffdog (Dec 30, 2010)

She hasn't felt any displeasure about me so far. She doesn't seem dismayed or upset when I tell her no- she just understands that what she is doing is displeasing me, and she stops. Half the time she seems unhappy that I am upset and comes to lay in my lap. :biggrin:


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## xxshaelxx (Mar 8, 2010)

You know, I have to agree with Bill here. I'm not the best dog trainer in the world, and I'll be the first to admit that I've made a LOT of mistakes that I dearly regret. I taught Amaya how to come when called when she was an itty bitty pup, and she listened really well. However, the moment she didn't listen to me, and I chased her around the backyard for several minutes, I punished her, and it only made the problem worse. Suddenly, she no longer came to me at all. Since, I've had to show her that she's NOT going to be punished if she comes to me, but if she doesn't, she'll get completely ignored (generally means being left outside without her brother to play with for as many hours as it takes for the message to sink in). And since I've started doing that, she's improved IMMENSELY! I've started to teach the dogs to wait when I tell them to before going outside, or going into the garage for their food. If they try to go out the door before I give them the command, I block them with my leg so they are unable to get past, and make them sit and wait again until I deem them fine to move outside/into the garage. I can also do so bringing them in. Make them sit and wait.

Now, they LOVE strangers coming into the house. That is their territory, and they know they can get all excited about visitors, because they think they're there for them. I admit that it's a bit difficult to control them at this point, but just as well, be them in their crate or outside, I make them sit and wait, and they sit and wait, despite all their anxiousness to get inside/out of their crates to visit the visitors. And trust me, Siberian Huskies are NOT easy to train in any regards, especially when they've got their mind on something else, and when there's visitors, they definitely have their mind on something else! However, they've learned that if they don't settle down and pay attention to me, they have to wait until they do, otherwise they don't get to visit. No harsh punishments, just ignored.

I have also started training Ryou to sit and wait while I call Amaya out of the door with me, and if he doesn't sit and wait, I either block him from going out, or make him come back in and do it again until he gets it right. No harsh words or "corrections," just "you didn't listen, now you've gotta do it again," or he won't get to go outside or go into the garage where he's being fed. They both have responded VERY well to this method.

Now, I still admit that I have a temper, and I feel absolutely wretched for this, so I do, at times, yell at them or give them spankings (nothing that hurts), but it's a mental block of my own that I REALLY hope to get past, because I don't feel it's right for them at all, because they do get scared of me...I don't want that. I've been much, much, much better with my anger problems since I got them, so I'm working on it, and hoping to soon be able to control my anger (which is a lot harder than anyone can imagine if they don't have anger management issues). I'd especially love to be using completely positive methods by the time I get my next dog, but that could be years from now.

Either way, my point is that my dogs respond very badly to any "corrections," including harsh a harsh "no," or a pulling of the chain. And I must say, when Ryou pulled, he responded EXTREMELY well to the "go the other way" method. I'd turn and head in the opposite direction, and he totally got the picture within SECONDS and was, like, "I LIKE THIS!" Whereas, when I pull on the leash or "jerk" it, he responds well to it, but it's a fear response, not an "Okay, I respect your asking me to do something and I'll do it."

And for the record, my parents spanked me as a kid and were constantly banishing me to my room, and I must say...I have some drastic issues because of it (including my anger issues).


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## mischiefgrrl (Oct 28, 2010)

It takes an incredibly strong and insightful person to realize and post what you did. Physical punishment isn't about what they are doing wrong - it is about our anger and inability to deal with our stress that has nothing to do with them. Because you are aware of this, you WILL get past it. I did.


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## xxshaelxx (Mar 8, 2010)

mischiefgrrl said:


> It takes an incredibly strong and insightful person to realize and post what you did. Physical punishment isn't about what they are doing wrong - it is about our anger and inability to deal with our stress that has nothing to do with them. Because you are aware of this, you WILL get past it. I did.


You know, if I could thank you a million more times for that post, I would, because it really means something to hear someone say that. I'm working REALLY hard on my anger issues right now, not just for my dogs, but for myself as well, because I know that without all of the anger in my life, I'll be a better person for EVERYONE around me, but my dogs are my first and foremost biggest priority, and I'm doing it mostly for them. As I said, I've made a lot of progress, but as you probably know, there's still a long road to travel before I know I'll be as good a person as I can be. It's all a part of growing up and learning how to be...well...a person.  So thank you. I can use all the good encouragement I can get! (And it takes a lot to admit these things to people, and not just yourself)!


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## bumblegoat (May 12, 2010)

Here is another one who used corrections before, and wouldn't dream of being so soft and only use positive reinforcement. However, after I read the book _Dont shoot the dog!_ by Karen Pryor, I have realized that the best and most effective way to train a dog (or anything else!) is by using positive reinforcement. I highly recommend this book to everyone, it's an easy and very interesting read. I challenge anyone who uses corrections to read it and then try to go back to their old ways. :wink:


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## Cliffdog (Dec 30, 2010)

xxshaelxx said:


> You know, I have to agree with Bill here. I'm not the best dog trainer in the world, and I'll be the first to admit that I've made a LOT of mistakes that I dearly regret. I taught Amaya how to come when called when she was an itty bitty pup, and she listened really well. However, the moment she didn't listen to me, and I chased her around the backyard for several minutes, I punished her, and it only made the problem worse. Suddenly, she no longer came to me at all. Since, I've had to show her that she's NOT going to be punished if she comes to me, but if she doesn't, she'll get completely ignored (generally means being left outside without her brother to play with for as many hours as it takes for the message to sink in). And since I've started doing that, she's improved IMMENSELY! I've started to teach the dogs to wait when I tell them to before going outside, or going into the garage for their food. If they try to go out the door before I give them the command, I block them with my leg so they are unable to get past, and make them sit and wait again until I deem them fine to move outside/into the garage. I can also do so bringing them in. Make them sit and wait.
> 
> Now, they LOVE strangers coming into the house. That is their territory, and they know they can get all excited about visitors, because they think they're there for them. I admit that it's a bit difficult to control them at this point, but just as well, be them in their crate or outside, I make them sit and wait, and they sit and wait, despite all their anxiousness to get inside/out of their crates to visit the visitors. And trust me, Siberian Huskies are NOT easy to train in any regards, especially when they've got their mind on something else, and when there's visitors, they definitely have their mind on something else! However, they've learned that if they don't settle down and pay attention to me, they have to wait until they do, otherwise they don't get to visit. No harsh punishments, just ignored.
> 
> ...


Well, I'm sorry for your experience! :frown: It sounds like your parents were extremely negative and I would never be that way to a child _or_ a dog, you're just begging for problems to happen that way. Anyone who experiences more negativity than positivity is likely to come away with problems... anger, depression, or a disconnect from their family.

That said, I was spanked. I was spanked and I was given time-outs as well. I was never grounded because by the time I was old enough to get out of the 'time out' stage and into the 'grounded' stage, I knew my boundaries. My parents set up for me a border of "right"— you are rewarded— and "wrong"— you are punished. From there, I went on to establish and understand my own feelings of what is right and what is wrong. I really never got into trouble at all throughout my entire childhood, for anything, except for some low grades in math.

For me, I use corrections. It's the way I train. I'm not berating your positive methods, so I don't understand all the hate on mine.  But in the end it really doesn't matter, because I'm the one training my dog. Her experience will be overwhelmingly positive, but she will know that when I give a command, she has to follow it, right then and there.


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## RawFedDogs (Jun 16, 2008)

Cliffdog said:


> For me, I use corrections. It's the way I train. I'm not berating your positive methods, so I don't understand all the hate on mine.


It's not "hate". I'm just trying to teach you that you can get better results faster by not using negative methods. There is really no such thing as "balance" between positive and negative in dog training. You see, for positive training to work, the dog must absolutely trust that you won't do anything bad to him if he screws up. If you are giving him corrections, he can never have that trust.

The difference between 100% positive and using corrections is this: When a dog who has been trained positively and completely trusts the trainer not to hurt him gets confused, he will try SOMETHING to see if its the thing the trainer is looking for. If its not, he will continue trying things until he gets it right. A negatively trained dog will freeze when he is confused and he will do nothing because he knows if he is wrong, he will be punished. He will often cower down when he is confused or he will just stare at you trying to get some hint of what he should do.



> But in the end it really doesn't matter, because I'm the one training my dog.


It matters to the dog. It matters to your relationship with your dog.



> Her experience will be overwhelmingly positive, but she will know that when I give a command, she has to follow it, right then and there.


Well, thats another place you are confused. Many people think "positive" means "permissive" but it doesn't. A negatively trained dog "obeys commands" because of fear. A postiively trained dog "performs behaviors" because he wants to. He knows his teacher, mentor, leader is "asking him" to do something because it needs to be done and he gladly does what is asked of him because pleasing his leader is the most important thing in his life. This is nice person who always guides him down the correct path. He is not afraid of his leader. There is no reason to be.

Until you have lived with a dog who has that attitude I don't know how to explain the difference to you. To live with a dog or dogs who spend their lives wanting to please you and loving the fact that you are guiding them down the right path through life and they have no reason to fear you is a MUCH different experience than living a dog who obeys out of fear. I have experienced both and I'm telling you there is a huge difference.

You may think your dog doesn't fear you but if you yell, jerk, or otherwise cause him discomfort when he makes a wrong move or doesn't obey instantly, the he has to be obeying out of fear. Place yourself in his shoes. Why else would you obey a person who treats you like that? 990% of the time a dog like this doesn't instantly obey is because he is confused. Then he gets punished for being confused.

Again there is no such thing as "balance" between positive and negative in training. If you have even the slightest bit of negativity in your training, you loose the benefits of positive because of lack of trust. Merely giving a dog a treat because he does something correctly is NOT positive training. There is much more to it than that.


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## Cliffdog (Dec 30, 2010)

Actually, I WAS raised by someone who did that, my parents. They guided me in the right direction, but when I did wrong, I got into trouble. When I started doing right again, I was rewarded. And I'm happy that's how I was brought up.


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## nikkiluvsu15 (Jun 9, 2010)

Well, I believe there is a balance between the two and I'll continue to stand my ground in it.

As I said before, if you have a dog that responds great to positive training, then great! But, _please_ do not rip those who do have to use corrections.

Gosh, ya'll are acting like we abuse dogs.  If my dog doesn't come to me, I don't go over there (or call her to me) and start hitting her, I go over there and say, "Harleigh Come!, Good Come!". Yes, its in a firm tone, but not yelling. She has no problems coming to me, however, that smell of deer/rabbit/cat poop occasionally is to much. She also loves people and love playing with other dogs (not sure how what that has to do with training methods though).

I believe that using both positive and corrections together is what works for me, so please don't say I need to "change my ways". I'm not sitting her trying to change yours. Anyways, I'm off to go practice with Harleigh on the Teeter so we can be ready for Agility class tonight :wink:

(I, too, was spanked and I was put in timeouts. They would have used grounded too, however, by the time I was that age I realized what was expected of me. I *was not* abused and I *do not* hate or fear my parents for spanking me. Actually, I'm *glad* they did.)


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## mischiefgrrl (Oct 28, 2010)

As I was reading this and having my morning cup of coffee, Tanis walked up to me, licked my hand and nuzzled in my arm for his morning kiss and hug. He was rescued from a ranch while staring down the business end of a shotgun. Now he is safe and he knows it. I would never compromise his trust in me by physically punishing him.


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## nikkiluvsu15 (Jun 9, 2010)

mischiefgrrl said:


> As I was reading this and having my morning cup of coffee, Tanis walked up to me, licked my hand and nuzzled in my arm for his morning kiss and hug. He was rescued from a ranch while staring down the business end of a shotgun. Now he is safe and he knows it. I would never compromise his trust in me by physically punishing him.


Harleigh did the same thing, to both myself & my mom. Actually she's still taking up all the room on the chair. She's a bed/couch/chair hog  Harleigh is also safe and she knows it - she was also rescued. <3

I think we'll just have to agree to disagree. As I said twice before (& somehow it just keeps getting pushed aside, I guess), if you have a dog that responds great to positive training, then great! But, please do not rip those who do have to use corrections. :smile: I have zero problem with people using all positive training, if it works the more power to you.


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## nikkiluvsu15 (Jun 9, 2010)

And this is just to show that using "corrections" doesn't make my dog not listen to me or make her be afraid of me. 

YouTube - Harleigh enjoying the cold weather..

:biggrin: She's so cute, but then again I'm biased! lol


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## RawFedDogs (Jun 16, 2008)

nikkiluvsu15 said:


> But, please do not rip those who do have to use corrections.


Thats part of the point I'm trying to get across. You don't HAVE to use corrections. There is not an animal in the world that won't respond to positive training but you need to know how to do it. I personally have trained dogs, cats, rats, mice, birds of prey, and chickens all using 100% positive methods. Without a single harsh word or leash jerk.

I have observed elephants, lions, other species of big cats, rhinos, various species of birds, gorillas, orangs, otters, and killer whales using positive methods. The only thing that keeps positive training from working ON ANY ANIMAL is the trainer and there is a fix for that. :smile: BTW: It also works on humans. :biggrin:

Hehe, I'd love to see someone try to train a cat using coersive methods. You could make a comedy movie out of that. LOL Ever try to train a chicken using coersion? Try it sometime. LOL


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## nikkiluvsu15 (Jun 9, 2010)

Well evidently you've never met Rebel :wink: He was trained with nothing BUT positive training for 2.5 years of his life. We started using minor corrections for him, such as leash corrections/stricter tone/etc., and saw great improvements. He'll be 4 in February and is making great strides.

However, just like I found out not all dogs respond great to positive training, not all dogs need corrections. 99% of the time I use positive training on Harleigh, but she does need leash corrections from time to time and a firm "Leave It" or "No!" for when she thinks about chasing the stray cat in our unfenced yard.

I know Harleigh wouldn't respond well to nothing but corrections, she would probably shut down. She does great with positive training and minor corrections.

Again, I think we're going to have to agree to disagree. I respect your position of training, so I hope you will respect mine.


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## mischiefgrrl (Oct 28, 2010)

I'm not attacking you in any way and I hope it doesn't come across like that.

Over the years, I've had foster children and foster dogs. All treated with positive reinforcement. My foster son who was 9 when he came to live with me would flinch every time I stood up, was listening to Eminem CD's and watching R rated movies. I had him for 6 months until his father and grandparents could get him. At the end of his time with me, he no longer flinched - loved watching Disney movies and cooking dinner with me. A few years later when he was a teenager he came to visit and thank me for the positive experience he had with me.

I had one foster dog that was completely out of control. He was found running along a highway in Baja, Mexico. A lab/boxer mix. If ever I was tempted to beat an animal - he was the one. This dog was NUTS. After 3 months of positive training, he moved on to be a proud K9 unit at the state prison. He takes his job very seriously, and his reward of play time just as seriously.

It does work - with humans and animals.

And RFD - LMAO at the suggestion of training a cat with corrections!!!


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## Cliffdog (Dec 30, 2010)

mischiefgrrl said:


> I'm not attacking you in any way and I hope it doesn't come across like that.
> 
> Over the years, I've had foster children and foster dogs. All treated with positive reinforcement. My foster son who was 9 when he came to live with me would flinch every time I stood up, was listening to Eminem CD's and watching R rated movies. I had him for 6 months until his father and grandparents could get him. At the end of his time with me, he no longer flinched - loved watching Disney movies and cooking dinner with me. A few years later when he was a teenager he came to visit and thank me for the positive experience he had with me.


Obviously that kid needed positive methods. He was clearly a out of sorts because of past traumas, and nobody with sense would use aggressive punishment for him. But I know way too many spoiled children (and dogs) who could really use a slap on the behind.


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## nikkiluvsu15 (Jun 9, 2010)

Oh yeah, I have ZERO doubt that positive reinforcement works. When Harleigh came to me she was the shyest dog I've ever met, using her clicker and positive ways helped her in tremendous ways. So I'm definitely not putting down the wonders of positive training :smile:

A mix of both of the training helped her become the awesome dog she is today.

(nothing to do with what we're talking about, but Cliffdog, I think was (kinda) near you this past weekend. lol Noticed you are in Mobile, I visited my sister in Jackson, AL this past weekend.)


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## Cliffdog (Dec 30, 2010)

That's where Bonnie comes from.  My brother drove her here from Jackson to save her from the pound. Nicer place than Mobile is.


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## RawFedDogs (Jun 16, 2008)

nikkiluvsu15 said:


> Well evidently you've never met Rebel :wink: He was trained with nothing BUT positive training for 2.5 years of his life. We started using minor corrections for him, such as leash corrections/stricter tone/etc., and saw great improvements. He'll be 4 in February and is making great strides.


I don't need to mee Rebel. What I need to do is meet you. :smile: When a positively trained animal is having problems in certain areas, its the trainer that needs more training, not the dog. Sometimes you have to think and be creative to come up with positive ways to teach things. It doesn't take any thinking to jerk a leash or yell but sometimes with positive training, thinking is sometimes required. 



> she does need leash corrections from time to time and a firm "Leave It" or "No!" for when she thinks about chasing the stray cat in our unfenced yard.


Instead of a firm (and harsh) "Leave it" or "No!", why not just call her to you in a sweet tone of voice and praise her heavily when she comes to you. You don't even need treats. Some happy talk and cheek rubs work wonders in that situation. If that doesn't work, it's telling you she needs some more work around stronger distractions. I can call my dogs off deer chases or rabbit chases even after the chase has begun. Yes, we practiced that. :smile:



> I know Harleigh wouldn't respond well to nothing but corrections, she would probably shut down. She does great with positive training and minor corrections.


See? Even with an extremely soft dogs you still insist on corrections. They may be minor to you but I can assure you that to her they aren't all that minor. 

I'm trying to get across to you that you can do all this with positive training if you will just take the time and trouble to learn how. There is much much much more to positive training than just shoving a treat in the dog's mouth when he does a trick. 

You have to learn what makes a dog tick and how he thinks and how to motivate him. You have to teach him the proper way to act in all situations. The secret is not to teach them what not to do but to teach them what to do in different settings.

My dogs still excite me when we get in a situation that they don't know what to do and they look at me for guidance. The greatest majority of the time I can give them a couple of hand motions to show them what to do and they know what to do. 

This comes only after you build that comlete trust that you can never have if you use coersion to MAKE the dog do your bidding. You learn how to motivate the dog to WANT to do your bidding. Thats the difference between your training and mine. And yes, I can do that with ANY dog. You can too if you just take the time to learn how. It's not that difficult and doesn't take a genius cause I ain't one of those.



> Again, I think we're going to have to agree to disagree. I respect your position of training, so I hope you will respect mine.


Sorry, but I can never agree that a person can get better behavior from any animal by jerking a leash or yelling. It just ain't so. I have done both ways and believed in both ways and I know what is possible.


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## Cliffdog (Dec 30, 2010)

We're not asking you to agree, we know you don't. :biggrin:


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## RawFedDogs (Jun 16, 2008)

cliffdog said:


> we're not asking you to agree, we know you don't. :biggrin:


hahahahaha!!!!!!


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## naturalfeddogs (Jan 6, 2011)

RFD, I love your way of thinking!:smile:


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## nikkiluvsu15 (Jun 9, 2010)

Well I stand by my training and its what works for me. Glad your training works for you as well. :smile:

I'm off to Agility class with Harleigh. Gotta drive an hour to Gainesville for it. Ah the joys of living in a small town - everything is an hour+ away. 

Bye. *waves*.


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## DaneMama (Jun 27, 2008)

Personally I'd take VS over CM anyday. While CM has a few good concepts, most of his "work" is way off base. Ever wonder why they have to put a disclaimer on his show (consult a professional trainer before trying this at home???). Its because they know his techniques are dangerous and outlandish, but they've got to produce results to stay on TV. VS on the other hand has mostly good concepts and techniques, I don't agree with some things she says. I don't think there is any ONE single trainer that I agree with just yet....and doubt I will find one. Which is exactly why I'm getting my certification in dog training this year LOL

That being said, ANY trainer out there that claims to use 100% positive reinforcement is full of sh*t. There is just no way to train dogs and live with them without using some kind of redirection, correction, what have you. Its just HOW these techniques are used and implemented. There is definitely a right way to "correct" a dog and a very wrong way to correct a dog. 

I know that Bill toots his horn about using 100% positive reinforcement and will take that argument to the grave, but ya'll gotta realize that its just not true. I know for a fact that some of his techniques can be considered punishment. Time out for example. He uses this technique to "correct" a dog for doing something undesirable. How does he implement this? Without much emotion, which is the right way to do so. But this is certainly not a positive experience for the dog. Is he causing physical harm? Nope.

So it doesn't really matter which side of the fence you are on in this discussion, you all are very close in your ways of thinking. Just minor changes in how you deal with behavior with your dogs. I think we can all agree that causing physical harm to dogs is NOT the right way to "correct" a dog. Giving a "you didn't do that right" cue/noise/word or removing an object are some correct ways to "correct" a dog.


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## BrownieM (Aug 30, 2010)

Well put, Natalie!! :biggrin:


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## bumblegoat (May 12, 2010)

Of course it is impossible to use 100% positive reinforcement. Those who say they do usually use positive reinforcement and negative punishment.


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## schtuffy (May 17, 2010)

xxshaelxx said:


> And for the record, my parents spanked me as a kid and were constantly banishing me to my room, and I must say...I have some drastic issues because of it (including my anger issues).


Me too shael :frown: Growing up for me was a lot of yelling, a lot of physical punishment, and to some extent, emotional manipulation. That being said, my parents were still unconditionally loving and provided me with a stable home all the way up to when I got married and moved out--for which I am truly thankful. Regardless though, the negative methods they used still left it's mark. I also have a lot of anger issues (among other things) that I have been steadily working on. I'm not saying parents shouldn't punish their children, but there are many things I will certainly change in regards to parenting methods if I ever decide to have kids. I will try to not make the same 'mistakes' my parents made (...but I'll probably still end up making a million other ones, right? hehe)

This thread has been very informative. Since day one my husband and I have always striven to use positive reinforcement methods on Louis. I won't deny that our impatience and frustrations don't get the best of us sometimes. We are first time 'parents' and have made our share of mistakes. There was some spanking (nothing that would actually hurt him) in the beginning, but I always felt incredibly guilty afterwards...not to mention the look he gives me with his eyes and the way he pins his ears back :frown: After reading this thread, I realize just how often we unknowingly raise our voices at him for unwanted behaviors. This will be something I will make a conscious effort to change from this day forward. 

He's a great dog...a loving sweetheart and extremely smart. He just has this new problem when he sees certain dogs in our neighborhood and just goes berserk. He's always tugged and whined and sometimes barked at other dogs while leashed, but it was a friendly 'I want to play' gesture. Louis came to us well socialized and always seemed to love every dog and every person (except for this one vet tech at the clinic who always manages to hurt him when she swabs his ears! but that's another story :biggrin. Since he was a puppy we tried to let him meet new people and new dogs. I used to take him to a dog park a couple times a week until it got too cold in November, and he always played well. For this new behavior, it's almost like a menacing growl and a mean, angry, and very energetic bark (now he's 14 months old). Not sure if he doesn't like the dogs or what...but he 'met' one of them months ago over the summer and this behavior didn't start until recently (past month or so). Any suggestions?


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## mischiefgrrl (Oct 28, 2010)

RFD probably has more in depth advice than I do - but I can speak from my experience. My dog was attacked by a neighbor's dog and needed some time to heal. We weren't living in an area where he could be off leash and play with other dogs. I was taking him to a doggie daycare once a week so he could socialize in a playful setting but with the healing he had to take a break from that. In those few months, he became the same way. Barking at other dogs we encountered on walks (on leash) and then at the dog park being slightly aggressive. Not teeth baring, growling, attack aggressive but being pushy and controlling of the other dogs. 

Then we moved to another area and have neighbors in the building with very friendly dogs. We started making playdates for them and he's back to his bouncy, goofy, overly friendly self again. Even just a few months without socialization will make them aggressive. Do you have friends with dogs that you could arrange playdates with to get him comfortable with other dogs again? 14 months old is still a pup and he should want to play.


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## schtuffy (May 17, 2010)

Thanks for the reply, I was thinking that maybe a couple months without socialization might be a cause. I actually feel really bad that he's cooped up most of the day (aside from his daily walks and occasional outings) and have noticed that it's been awhile since he had any sort of doggy play time. I suppose a playdate with my friends' dogs is in order. We've actually planned some but they keep getting pushed back for whatever reason :frown: Guess winter just makes everyone lazy...


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## RawFedDogs (Jun 16, 2008)

Being cooped up for a while may be part of the problem. Get Patricia Mcconnell's booklet Fiesto Fido. It may be helpful to you.


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## wags (Jan 31, 2009)

I have read through all the posts here! I love the positive reinforcement ( I do try to think I am doing this hmmmm???)( Lets say this I am a push over so ummm have to admit with the dogs they listen very well but they can bowl me over!)the no harm way! I don't hit my dogs or such! But I will say that when I walk especially the three year old one The ori pei he is on the martingale collar (only when walking) so its~ well you guys know what it is~ anyway he seems to pull a lot and yes I already have the gentle leader and the Halti. And please do not tell me to keep trying with these collars the Halti or gentle leader on him its just not fair that he wont explore that's what I want him to do be a dog and look around but not to pull! The thing is I have used both those with him and yes I know it takes a while for them to get use to it but he then will walk right next to me and wont budge an inch to explore or do anything else he just is like a child when you first put on the snow suit and they are penguins and cant move! So I hate that. I want him to explore and all but when on the martingale he then is so in control its hard to manage him. He's like 55 to 60 lbs. Need to weight him ha! my other dog chocolate lab that I usually walk with him is wonderful no problem at all. That is why I am walking them together because I want him to learn from her the proper way to walk! I want him to explore and all but not Pull ! Anyway I am wondering what are the best books to have on positive reinforcement and training correctly! I need to get on track here with this! Thanks!


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## BrownieM (Aug 30, 2010)

wags said:


> I don't hit my dogs or such!


I sure hope nobody here hits their dogs!  We're all dog lovers, right? :biggrin:

Also, wags, I had the exact same experience with the gentle leader. Not a fan. Henry seemed so defeated he didn't even wag his tail during the walk or try to explore the smells. :frown:


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## sassymaxmom (Dec 7, 2008)

Wags, I love my flexi lead. I can lock it and Max walks with me nicely across streets and unlock it so he has room to explore. A regular 6 foot leash isn't long enough for much exploring. Of course Max is a smaller dog, only 38 pounds. If he was an exuberant 75 pound dog I would have had to do a whole lot more training to be safe! You cannot use a Gentle Leader with a flexi either. Basically I expect my dogs to be paying attention to me and to know how long the leash is and not to hit the end of it. Some gentle pressure, same as the tension on the flexi is okay with me but not charging out or staying at the very end of the leash. Max was super easy as he is quite a velcro dog but it still took a lot of treats and praise and boring walks up and down the sidewalk in front of my house and in the super boring street to get there.

Try reading Jean MacDonald. She is very blunt but I love her stuff.
Patricia McConnell is a bit gentler sounding.
There are a lot of great videos here some with Jean but I am sure all are pretty good stuff.
ABRI: Videos
Here is P. McConnell's website.
Dog Training Books, Dog Training, Dog Behavior, Puppy Training | Patricia McConnell

There are lots more excellent trainers. I just happen to have books by those two on my bedside table at the moment!


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## wags (Jan 31, 2009)

BrownieM said:


> I sure hope nobody here hits their dogs!  We're all dog lovers, right? :biggrin:
> 
> QUOTE]
> 
> Ha I should have worded that a bit different haha! Meaning I don't like even pull that collar to yank them back or such! But yes like you I do hope no one hits their dogs! I have seen this though with walking mine I actually confronted a man one walk! Not a good move sometimes ~but he wasn't hitting his dog he was practically beating it because it would not come to him! He had his dogs loose and that is another issue. In the area I am you can't walk a dog without a leash. So theres another strike against this man! I did say that he should kind of ease up maybe try a treat and he was like that's none of my business , but I did feel it was my business!~but I did then say Ummm animal cruelty is against the law and he stormed away! Ugh I am glad I got him to stop but then I think whew what if he was not that nice and decided to rip on me UGH! Well anyway I hope you get my drift! There are those who do this and its horrible!


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## wags (Jan 31, 2009)

sassymaxmom said:


> Wags, I love my flexi lead. I can lock it and Max walks with me nicely across streets and unlock it so he has room to explore. A regular 6 foot leash isn't long enough for much exploring. Of course Max is a smaller dog, only 38 pounds. If he was an exuberant 75 pound dog I would have had to do a whole lot more training to be safe! You cannot use a Gentle Leader with a flexi either. Basically I expect my dogs to be paying attention to me and to know how long the leash is and not to hit the end of it. Some gentle pressure, same as the tension on the flexi is okay with me but not charging out or staying at the very end of the leash. Max was super easy as he is quite a velcro dog but it still took a lot of treats and praise and boring walks up and down the sidewalk in front of my house and in the super boring street to get there.
> 
> Try reading Jean MacDonald. She is very blunt but I love her stuff.
> Patricia McConnell is a bit gentler sounding.
> ...


Thanks for the information! I will check out the flexi lead now! Also I believ I do have Patricia MCConnell right here! UGH! What I need to do is sit down and reread it and apply it! I think that is more my problem! Apply the techniques! I am going to check out Jean MacDonald this I believ I do not have so that will be a good read also! Like I said applying it is what I need to do! Thanks again!:smile:


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## wags (Jan 31, 2009)

This thread would benefit being in the training section at least I think it would!


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## RawFedDogs (Jun 16, 2008)

wags said:


> The thing is I have used both those with him and yes I know it takes a while for them to get use to it but he then will walk right next to me and wont budge an inch to explore or do anything else


Hehe ... first you complain bout him pulling, then you turn right around and complain about him not pulling (staying beside you). He's kinda lost either way. Just the act of exploring entails getting to the end of the leash. It's real difficult to teach a dog to go to the end of the leash and no further. If he's exploring, there is always just one more smell just out of reach that he needs to check out.

Here is one POSSIBLE solution to your problem. Get a long leash ... one that is 20 or 30 feet long. As he nears the end of the leash call him back to you and praise him when he comes back. 

A leash that long is very difficult for a novice to handle but gets easier with time. It will probably be almost impossible to walk both dogs at the same time with the long leash and even more impossible of both dogs are on long leashes.



> my other dog chocolate lab that I usually walk with him is wonderful no problem at all. That is why I am walking them together because I want him to learn from her the proper way to walk!


One problem here is that its more likely that the choc lab will learn to walk from the other one since the other one is having more fun. I never expect one dog's behavior to improve by watching another. It's usually the other way around. When teaching basic stuff like sit, down, stay, etc, you are right. One dog will learn from a better trained dog but I don't have that much confidence that will work in a case like this.



> I want him to explore and all but not Pull ! Anyway I am wondering what are the best books to have on positive reinforcement and training correctly! I need to get on track here with this! Thanks!


I haven't done any training in 4 or 5 years so I can't remember most of the good books. I know one book called The Power of Positive Dog Training by Pat Miller was real good. There may be better books out now than there were then. I just haven't paid much attention in that area.


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## wags (Jan 31, 2009)

RawFedDogs said:


> Hehe ... first you complain bout him pulling, then you turn right around and complain about him not pulling (staying beside you). He's kinda lost either way. Just the act of exploring entails getting to the end of the leash. It's real difficult to teach a dog to go to the end of the leash and no further. If he's exploring, there is always just one more smell just out of reach that he needs to check out.
> 
> Here is one POSSIBLE solution to your problem. Get a long leash ... one that is 20 or 30 feet long. As he nears the end of the leash call him back to you and praise him when he comes back.
> 
> ...


Ha! Yes the first part of this I am wishy washy! And I admit it haha! I dont want him to pull yet I do want him to explore! UGH! Wishy washy! And I didnt really know this would effect my lab UGH! I dont want her pulling so I have to rethink this walk now! They love going together gee maybe he is trying to sway her his way haha! Thanks for that info. But the advice you have given I am up for! I will try the longer leash and calling him ! Sounds great! And I am up for reading~ kinda boring the long winter~ so books I am up for thanks for the advice I appreciate it!:smile:


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## cast71 (Sep 16, 2010)

The gentle leader and halti is not a new idea. It's a failed idea from the 60's that they brought back. They stopped using it, because it puts alot of pressure on the neck. They should stop selling them now:frown: I use to use one until I learned more about them.


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## RawFedDogs (Jun 16, 2008)

I love the GL's, not the Halti's so much. It's a great idea. Same as a horse bridle. Yes, someone needs to understand how to use them. You don't give the dog enough leash so he can take off running and get to the end of the leash running at full speed. You must keep the leash short. With a great dane, I hold the leash right under the chin and it works wonders. With smaller dogs, hold the leash short enough that they must be right beside you or just a little in front. I have never seen a dog I couldn't control with one finger with a GL head harness. 

Yes, they look dangerous but I have never heard first hand about a dog getting injured by one. I have heard of a neighbor's uncle's coworker's best friend's wife's sister's dog getting an injured but thats about all. :smile: I"ve never had a client dog get injured in the slightest.


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## BrownieM (Aug 30, 2010)

wags said:


> he was practically beating it because it would not come to him!


See, I don't get this man! No wonder his dog wouldn't come...


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## BrownieM (Aug 30, 2010)

RawFedDogs said:


> Here is one POSSIBLE solution to your problem. Get a long leash ... one that is 20 or 30 feet long. As he nears the end of the leash call him back to you and praise him when he comes back.


RFD, this is exactly what I do with Millie. Though, I don't use a long leash. She knows not to pull, but if she gets carried away and ends up at the end of the leash I just say "Millie, look at me". She looks at me and slows down until she is at my side. This is how I walk off leash with her too. If she goes beyond the boundary I am comfortable with I just say those key words and she's right back at my side.


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## cast71 (Sep 16, 2010)

RawFedDogs said:


> I love the GL's, not the Halti's so much. It's a great idea. Same as a horse bridle. Yes, someone needs to understand how to use them. You don't give the dog enough leash so he can take off running and get to the end of the leash running at full speed. You must keep the leash short. With a great dane, I hold the leash right under the chin and it works wonders. With smaller dogs, hold the leash short enough that they must be right beside you or just a little in front. I have never seen a dog I couldn't control with one finger with a GL head harness.
> 
> Yes, they look dangerous but I have never heard first hand about a dog getting injured by one. I have heard of a neighbor's uncle's coworker's best friend's wife's sister's dog getting an injured but thats about all. :smile: I"ve never had a client dog get injured in the slightest.


If used in the way that you describe, than it's perfectly safe. The problem is I've seen plenty of people with them, with a 24ft. flexi leash. That's a dangerous combination


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## BrownieM (Aug 30, 2010)

cast71 said:


> The problem is I've seen plenty of people with them, with a 24ft. flexi leash. That's a dangerous combination


 is right. That's an injury waiting to happen!! I've seen people with flexi leads and prong collars. Also a dangerous combination.


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## cast71 (Sep 16, 2010)

BrownieM said:


> is right. That's an injury waiting to happen!! I've seen people with flexi leads and prong collars. Also a dangerous combination.


I agree especially since most people don't even have prong collars setup right. There suppose to be tight so they fit at the base of the head. There not suppose to be halfway down the neck where they can cause damage to the esophagus. The loops should always be behind the head. Most people use 1 loop when 2 loops would be sufficient. 1 loop causes more pressure. Used in any other way is cruel:frown: Slip or choke collars should be band


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## mischiefgrrl (Oct 28, 2010)

I love the flexi leash. It's at the shortest length and locked when crossing streets and approaching people/dogs and then unlocked at other times. I let him explore and sniff - but don't stop walking (unless he's pooping) so if I'm still walking and he's still sniffing when we get to the end of the slack, he feels the tug and knows it's time to catch up.


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## channeledbymodem (Dec 25, 2008)

RawFedDogs said:


> Being cooped up for a while may be part of the problem. Get Patricia Mcconnell's booklet Fiesto Fido. It may be helpful to you.


I think you meant to reference _The Feisty Fido_.


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## RawFedDogs (Jun 16, 2008)

Yeah, thats EXACTLY what I mean. :smile:


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## KlaMarie (Dec 30, 2010)

Just on a side note.......It is amazing to me how many different opinions and attitudes you can get with different types of dog owners. I am new to this forum, but am very active on others (a GSD forum and a working dog forum). 

In being exposed to both the pet side, and the working side.....I think the training method used really depends on the individual dog. It would be vitually impossible to find a working dog (police k9, schutzhund, etc) that is trained with 100% positive reinforcement. These dogs have very, very strong personalities. They are bred to be tough, hard dogs. It can get a little dangerous, sometimes, with certain dogs if the dog doesn't physically respect you. Don't get me wrong, the good trainers have a balance of positive reinforcement and corrections, but they do have corrections (leash pressure, and pops on the leash). 

They are in no way "hurting" or "punishing" the dogs, but telling one of these dog "no" in a calm, no emotion voice will not get the message across sometimes. Temperament has alot to do with training methods used.


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## RawFedDogs (Jun 16, 2008)

KlaMarie said:


> In being exposed to both the pet side, and the working side.....I think the training method used really depends on the individual dog. It would be vitually impossible to find a working dog (police k9, schutzhund, etc) that is trained with 100% positive reinforcement.


Au contraire mon ami. It is very possible to train working police, military, and schutzhund dogs using 100% positive methods. In fact there is nothing that you can teach with coersion that you can't teach with positive reinforcement. It just takes a trainer that knows how.

I met a man 5 or 6 years ago who has taught and was teaching several police departments how to train their police dogs using clicker training. I can't remember his name right now but if memory serves me right, he was from Oregon. 

I just don't know why people think you have to be rough with a dog to teach him rough things. He showed me how capturing a criminal, even biting him was like a game to a well trained police dog. They loved playing the game and were real good at it. They aren't trying to hurt anybody, just playing a game.



> These dogs have very, very strong personalities. They are bred to be tough, hard dogs. It can get a little dangerous, sometimes, with certain dogs if the dog doesn't physically respect you.


I suspect by "respect" you mean "fear" and thats just not so. If you are their mentor, teacher, life partner, and leader, they will respect you if you respect them and give good clear directions on what you want.



> Don't get me wrong, the good trainers have a balance of positive reinforcement and corrections, but they do have corrections (leash pressure, and pops on the leash).


Corrections wipe away what is gained from positive reinforcement. You just can't have both and get the maximum from either.



> They are in no way "hurting" or "punishing" the dogs, but telling one of these dog "no" in a calm, no emotion voice will not get the message across sometimes.


It absolutely does. Do you think these dogs are stupid? They will do what is expected and if wrong, will understand when told so. I understand that these dogs work under emotionally charged conditions but the emotion is the handler's and not necessarily the dog's. Usually the dogs stay calm and do their job once trained. But, when being taught all that is not necessary.



> Temperament has alot to do with training methods used.


Temperament has been decided when dogs are selected for jobs like this. Treating them roughly will not speed up the training nor make it better engrained.


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## KlaMarie (Dec 30, 2010)

RawFedDogs said:


> Au contraire mon ami. It is very possible to train working police, military, and schutzhund dogs using 100% positive methods. In fact there is nothing that you can teach with coersion that you can't teach with positive reinforcement. It just takes a trainer that knows how.
> I met a man 5 or 6 years ago who has taught and was teaching several police departments how to train their police dogs using clicker training. I can't remember his name right now but if memory serves me right, he was from Oregon .


Yes, I’ve met those people too. My trainer (trains protection sports and PSDs) uses clickers and positive reinforcement. When the dogs are young and for most of the obedience, it’s all positive reinforcement with food or their tugs. Did that trainer you know of discourage a leash correction for adult dogs??? 


RawFedDogs said:


> I just don't know why people think you have to be rough with a dog to teach him rough things. He showed me how capturing a criminal, even biting him was like a game to a well trained police dog. They loved playing the game and were real good at it. They aren't trying to hurt anybody, just playing a game. .


Yeah, I know. Most of the time the dog is in prey drive. It’s all just a game. You transition from the game of tug, to the sleeve. They are having a blast the whole time. I never said it was about being “rough” with the dog. 
When the dog matures, some trainers transition from prey (play) drive into other drives, like defense or fight. Which isn’t necessarily “playing”. 


RawFedDogs said:


> I suspect by "respect" you mean "fear" and thats just not so. If you are their mentor, teacher, life partner, and leader, they will respect you if you respect them and give good clear directions on what you want.


No, I do not mean fear. I mean control. I agree with you that they will respect you if you give them good, clear directions. That is where “fair” corrections come in. The dog know what I want, I have taught him the commands using positive reinforcement, I have built a foundation on trust. But when that decoys comes out, if I don’t have a firm hand on the lease and a commanding voice…all that “trust” goes out the window. The dog does NOT care in the least if I had a tug, steak, or whatever. He just wants to get the bad guy. So in order to teach him his job, I need to correct him (leash pop) when he leaps out without a “bite” command given. He needs to respect that I control him, and he is NOT going to get what he wants until I say so. 
My dog does not fear me in the least, but she does know that I will pop her if she jumps out to bite without a command. It’s not fear, it’s knowing that misbehavior will have a consequence. Why? Because at higher levels of protection sports, most of it is done off leash. I have to have COMPLETE control of her every move in order for us to perform the exercises safely. 



RawFedDogs said:


> Corrections wipe away what is gained from positive reinforcement. You just can't have both and get the maximum from either.


If you can’t have both, and get the maximum results…..then why do national and international competitors in Schutzhund and Ring sport use a combination of positive reinforcement and corrections? They are definitely getting the maximum from their dogs. 


RawFedDogs said:


> It absolutely does. Do you think these dogs are stupid? They will do what is expected and if wrong, will understand when told so. I understand that these dogs work under emotionally charged conditions but the emotion is the handler's and not necessarily the dog's. Usually the dogs stay calm and do their job once trained. But, when being taught all that is not necessary.


No, I don’t think they are stupid. That’s why I can expect them to understand consequences. I build a foundation of trust and positive experiences, and then I expect them to perform when told to. If they don’t do what I ask, when they KNOW what I am asking, they get a leash correction. 

Yes, once trained, some of the dogs seem calm when working. But when you transition a dog from a tug to the sleeve, and tap into their prey drive, they can seem like complete lunatics. Their ENTIRE world is that sleeve, the decoy, the man running away. That is dangerous if not controlled. 



RawFedDogs said:


> Temperament has been decided when dogs are selected for jobs like this. Treating them roughly will not speed up the training nor make it better engrained.


I never said anything about treating them “roughly”. I said a correction, which is in no way rough or hurting them when I do it, can be more effective (in some situations) than positive reinforcement. I don’t jerk my dog around, I don’t alpha roll her. But when she jumps out of position, when I have told her to stay, that gets a correction. Because she knows exactly what she is supposed to be doing, but got too excited or lost concentration. And if that were to happen when she was off-leash and I couldn't stop her, the decoy can get hurt.


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## 3Musketeers (Nov 4, 2010)

My general rule of thumb (when they* know* what is being asked) is to always ask nicely first.

Example: Sparky grabs random object from the floor.

"Sparky, come here" "Good, now... drop it"

Sparky doesn't listen:

*"Droopp iiiiit"*

Still doesn't listen?:

**srsface**









"*Drop it...*" you spoiled little brat

You better bet he drops it then
(If by chance he doesn't I pull it out of his mouth xD)


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## Jack Monzon (Jul 25, 2010)

RawFedDogs said:


> During the last 5 years of my professional training career, I didn't even use a leash to train dogs unless I was teaching something like loose leash walking which made a leash kinda necessary.


I'm curious how you trained loose-leash walking without pulling on the leash. Did you just do constant about-faces?

EDIT: I'm enjoying this thread, btw.


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## mischiefgrrl (Oct 28, 2010)

Cute 3M!! I went through that with Tanis last night. He picked up a piece of bread on our walk and very reluctantly dropped it. Kids.


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## SamWu1 (Oct 15, 2010)

Everyone has their own opinion of what they consider to be "ideal" training methods. Either they are effective or not depends upon what that person consider "obedient".

I've met countless people that considers their dog obedient if they tell them to sit and the animal does it after the owner says the command the 3rd or fourth time. Or another instance when the dog is told to go to their crate and keeps turning around and needs to be coaxed.

To me that's unacceptable. If the dog understood the command, he should execute it it. Alot of people also misunderstand that their dog is being disobedient but he's really just confused or the command was unclear and he didn't comprehend it.

Bottom line, whatever training methods are utilized, as long as it isn't physically harsh and won't affect the morale of he animal, the effectiveness of the training is at the owner's discretion.


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## BrownieM (Aug 30, 2010)

Jack Monzon said:


> I'm curious how you trained loose-leash walking without pulling on the leash. Did you just do constant about-faces?
> 
> EDIT: I'm enjoying this thread, btw.


See, I do use prong collars but loose-leash walking is actually one thing I trained Millie using a clicker - before I ever even bought a prong collar. I would just walk and whenever she looked at me she got clicked and treated. Eventually I waited longer and longer in between click/treats.

Literally, that simple!


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## RawFedDogs (Jun 16, 2008)

Jack Monzon said:


> I'm curious how you trained loose-leash walking without pulling on the leash. Did you just do constant about-faces?


Yes, but I do it almost immediately. I don't wait for the dog to get to the end of the leash. I start walking, take a couple of steps then turn right, a couple of more than a left. Then I just turn random directions. Right, left, about face. The dog figures out almost immediately that he has to watch me. I slowly increase the distance between turns. He never knows which direction I'm going to go next. (Neither do I.) :smile: I am constantly talking to the dog and encouraging him in a happy voice.

I like Liz's (BrownieM) method also. It works very well.


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## Jack Monzon (Jul 25, 2010)

I have to say, I find CM's show more interesting and informative than VS's, independent of the dominance-based training methods. I TiVo both of them and find myself eager to watch CM while letting VS's episodes sit in the queue.

I find VS's show is often corny and focuses more on herself and on the wacky humans she's taking to task. In a recent episode, I saw her teaching the "leave it" command. I didn't have any confusion over how she was teaching it at first, but then she set up an elaborate camera and intercom system in the couple's house and shrieked, "LEAVE IT!" when no one was home and she saw the dog going for a throw pillow. Not exactly practical training advice. 

CM episodes can also be annoying, especially when it's some nonsense like "Peanut: The Chihuahua Who Runs the Household!" He can also be a broken record -- yes, we know that you should walk your dog every day. But some of CM's shows also focus on less sensational topics, like fearful/shy dogs (which is what I have), and his strategy in these situations is spot-on, in my opinion. There's no dominance, leash-jerking, or alpha-dog methods. Maybe VS covers cases like this too, but I haven't seen any yet.

I also find the CM episodes useless where they cram four different cases into one show, because you can't tell what the hell happened. I think this must've been something they tried out for a season or two, because I've noticed the new episodes are slower paced, and there are only two cases per show. 

I can see how people are turned off by CM, but surprisingly (to me) his shtick seems less forced than VS's.


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## bumblegoat (May 12, 2010)

Jack Monzon said:


> I find VS's show is often corny and focuses more on herself and on the wacky humans she's taking to task. In a recent episode, I saw her teaching the "leave it" command. I didn't have any confusion over how she was teaching it at first, but then she set up an elaborate camera and intercom system in the couple's house and shrieked, "LEAVE IT!" when no one was home and she saw the dog going for a throw pillow. Not exactly practical training advice.


I have seen her use cameras like that too, I think it was a dalmatian that stole food. They set up a camera, and some sort of system that made a loud noise, and set up a trap for the dog. When the dog took the food they had put on the table, they pushed a button to scare the crap out of the dog with the loud noise.



Jack Monzon said:


> CM episodes can also be annoying, especially when it's some nonsense like "Peanut: The Chihuahua Who Runs the Household!" He can also be a broken record -- yes, we know that you should walk your dog every day. But some of CM's shows also focus on less sensational topics, like fearful/shy dogs (which is what I have), and his strategy in these situations is spot-on, in my opinion. There's no dominance, leash-jerking, or alpha-dog methods. Maybe VS covers cases like this too, but I haven't seen any yet.


I agree that he sometimes does a really great job with fearful dogs. I saw an episode with a dog that was terrified of thunder storms (if I remember correctly). When the dog was left outside when the owner wasn't home, this dog managed to get itself into the garage through a really small hole. What was CM's solution? A doggy door so the dog could go inside the house when it got scared. He also got the owner to start exercising her dogs so she could let them all inside the house more, because before they would not behave inside, which was why they were kept outside a lot.


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## Mikem943 (Mar 21, 2012)

Interesting topic, despite it being very old. I must say I agree, she is a poor trainer. Any trainer who repeats a command more then once is not worthy of being called a trainer. Any proper dog trainer knows repeating a command conditions a dog into thinking that it does not have to respond the first time, and Victoria does this all the time "sit, sit, sit" etc. Also RawfedDogs, by saying that there are multiple trainers who train with 100% positive reinforcement training, you have greatly shown your ignorance. There is no such thing as 100% positive reinforcement. Ever clipped a dog to a leash? That is negative punishment in behavioural science. Saying there is no need for corrections simply because you feel your dogs are well behaved means little, as everyone has different standards, and expectations for their dog. Please do not take this the wrong way, but your dogs would get laughed out of the ring at an obedience competition. Visit an obedience competition, and ask the top competing trainers. They will no doubt tell you they trained with all quadrants of operant conditioning, not just one. So yes, maybe you do not require Positive punishment (or known to you as corrections) with your dogs, but that is because of the standard of training you accept. Not all dogs respond to the more positive approach. Many are under the impression a correction works because it hurts. This is another common misconception. A method does not have to hurt to work. Does a clicker hurt? No, but it does work. Does a head halter hurt? No, yet it works aswell. A correction is simply a physical marker that tells the dog they did wrong, much like how a clicker is an auditory que to tell them they have done right. Victoria Stilwell herself uses negative punishment. She will withhold a reward untill she gets the behaviour she wants. I have an interesting study on the stress levels produced by three types of aversives. Read it yourself, out of the three (e collar, prong collar, and negative punishment), negative punishment produced more stress then an e collar wich is considered to be one of the most harsh forms of corrections. I believe this to be, because when a dog has a much easier time understanding when it has done right and wrong, and what you want it is easier on the dog, making the dog less stressed. Instead of the dog having to sit there and figure out what you want. Think about it are you stressed when you know what to do, or when you are not sure? You seem like a smart guy, and are entitled to your opinions, that does not mean however, that other opinions do not have validity. Here is the study, hope you enjoy it, the only biast I could find was that they only did the study on one breed: http://www.ecma.eu.com/Comparison o... three different training methods in dogs.pdf


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