# Switching to adult food - reccomendations?



## Zar (Sep 22, 2011)

I have a 7 month old bichon frise/australian cattle dog mix. She has been eating Wellness Super5Mix Just for Puppy since I got her at 8 weeks old. I am looking into switching her onto adult food after this last bag I just bought is finished (it will probably take her 2-3 months to get through this bag though). She's 17lbs.

Unfortunately raw is not an option (only place I can really buy meat currently is Kroger's). I have been looking at switching her to adult Wellness/Wellness Core, Evo, Acana, Orijen or Blue Wilderness. The only thing I'm concerned about is that I've heard, especially with the Orijen and Evo, that the protein level and etc. is unsuitable for less active/nonworking dogs. 

She is a relatively active dog, but nothing extreme - she's not a working dog. She has a large yard and other dogs to play with (along with a goat to harass), is relatively active when outside in the yard playing (occasionally she will just run laps for no reason other than to run), and spends a lot of time wrestling with the other dogs when indoors as well. Weather permitting, we go for about a 30 min to hour walk in the morning on workdays and I try to take her for 2-3 hours on my days off. The only exception to this is during the summer, when it's just too hot for me or the dogs to go for walks. She only spends about 30 mins, if that, in a crate on workdays.

What would you say is the best option for her? Suggestions of other foods I didn't list are welcome too. I have no issue with having to order it online (I generally prefer to).


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## Unosmom (May 3, 2009)

what about grain free acana? I believe they have 4 varieties now which you can rotate and its not as high protein as orijen, but same company.


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## Zar (Sep 22, 2011)

Unosmom said:


> what about grain free acana? I believe they have 4 varieties now which you can rotate and its not as high protein as orijen, but same company.


When I said Acana in my original post that's the one I meant. Do you know of any sites to order it from for relatively cheap? So far where I've looked there hasn't been much difference between Acana and Orijen. Evo is also cheaper despite being more calories per cup, which is a plus.


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## Jack Monzon (Jul 25, 2010)

Did she do fine on Wellness Puppy?


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## truthdog (Sep 10, 2011)

I notice you live in Texas. Why not try Victor. I have friends down there using it. Very high quality beef formula with a nice selection of types.

Victor Premium Dog Food | Hi Pro Plus
http://www.victordogfood.com/professional-formula/

I like these two the best and they sell for less than $30 per 40lb bag.

The big box store foods you see recommended like Wellness and Blue Buffalo are garbage
for the money, don't get sucked in. Same for Orijen, Acana, Addiction, all expensive junk.

A food like Victor is marketed to professionals that are smart enough to not get ripped off.


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## Zar (Sep 22, 2011)

Jack Monzon said:


> Did she do fine on Wellness Puppy?


Yes, she's done very well on the Wellness Puppy. The only thing I've noticed is she seems more interested in eating other dogs' cheaper food if given the choice, but she eats it without issue.



truthdog said:


> I notice you live in Texas. Why not try Victor. I have friends down there using it. Very high quality beef formula with a nice selection of types.
> 
> Victor Premium Dog Food | Hi Pro Plus
> Victor Premium Dog Food | Professional Formula
> ...


She's done very well on the Wellness so I wouldn't call it garbage, but I looked at the Victor food anyway. None of the dealers are close enough to me and I can't find anywhere to order online on the website. Both varieties you linked also have Sorghum as the second ingredient, which puts me off. Thanks for the suggestion anyway.


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## truthdog (Sep 10, 2011)

Really why? Did you read somewhere that Sorghum is bad? Explain why the second ingredient is
so important? I am curious about this, sounds like more internet myth like corn causes allergies.

Sorghum is considered a health food for people and is extremely nutritious for dogs. If Victor 
called it Milo like Castor & Pollux and many other "holistic" brands would it be more appealing?


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## Caty M (Aug 13, 2010)

The best food is that which contains no plant matter... since that's not possible with kibble, the further down the list the better. :wink:

Ya know, since dogs are carnivores and not omnivores.


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## Zar (Sep 22, 2011)

truthdog said:


> Really why? Did you read somewhere that Sorghum is bad? Explain why the second ingredient is
> so important? I am curious about this, sounds like more internet myth like corn causes allergies.
> 
> Sorghum is considered a health food for people and is extremely nutritious for dogs. If Victor
> called it Milo like Castor & Pollux and many other "holistic" brands would it be more appealing?


I have a dog who is allergic to corn. I spent forever cleaning up a mess of diarrhea every morning before finally figuring out it was the corn in her food, so yes, I dislike corn and anything similar in my dog's food if I can help it. 
I already stated there is no dealer near enough to me to actually get Victor even if I wanted to, why make a huge fuss over the sorghum thing? If they called it holistic and it was still full of corns and grains then no, it would not be more appealing. That is a horribly rude statement, suggesting I don't even read what is in the food, just the pretty label on the front.
I've noticed in your other posts you've been incredibly rude and insist corn is good for dogs, so I'm just going to go ahead and stop responding to anything else after this. 


Caty, do you have any suggestions on which is best? I know raw would be better for her, but it's not an option so I'm trying to at least do the best I can with kibble. Evo is what I've mostly been leaning towards, I'm just unsure from what I mentioned earlier about people saying the protein was too high for nonworking dogs and a few "horror stories" of it ruining kidneys.


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## catahoulamom (Sep 23, 2010)

Since you said your dog isn't very high-energy, I would recommend Acana. Evo could be too much protein for her. There are several different formulas, so you can rotate and give her a variety. Before switching to raw my dogs did better on Acana than any other high-quality kibble.


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## Caty M (Aug 13, 2010)

I like Acana, Orijen, EVO, Taste of the wild, Horizon legacy.. there's a few really good ones out there. Just study the labels and switch really slow. Remember not every food is for every dog.

Might want to supplement with RMBs for dental health- tossing your dog a beef rib stripped of meat a couple times a week will do wonders for plaque buildup.


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## truthdog (Sep 10, 2011)

Caty M said:


> The best food is that which contains no plant matter... since that's not possible with kibble, the further down the list the better. :wink:
> 
> Ya know, since dogs are carnivores and not omnivores.


Do you know how naive your are? The label tells you very little about how much nutrition comes
from what source. The Victor food with 30/20 has less than half the carbohydrates than many of 
the grain free foods you all worship. 

Did you realize that?


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## Caty M (Aug 13, 2010)

How does it have half the carbs than any other 30/20 food? Is it higher in moisture? Orijen has around 25% carbs, Acana a little more.

I think YOU'RE the naive one... :smile:

And I far from "worship" dog foods... all of them have faults. That's why I feed raw!


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## Zar (Sep 22, 2011)

Julie said:


> Since you said your dog isn't very high-energy, I would recommend Acana. Evo could be too much protein for her. There are several different formulas, so you can rotate and give her a variety. Before switching to raw my dogs did better on Acana than any other high-quality kibble.


She probably would be a lot more active if I allowed her to be, hah. It's more that I'm not as active, so we don't do as much. Even after walking for 2 1/2 hours yesterday, through canals, ditches and brush (and some sidewalks and streets), she still came home and wanted to wrestle with other dogs. This is probably the cattle dog in her, lol. I may try the Acana if I can find somewhere reasonable to order it from. I've never seen it in stores around here (then again, we don't really have pet stores besides Petco & Petsmart and a few local feed stores, but those are more for horse/cattle/other livestock). 



Caty M said:


> I like Acana, Orijen, EVO, Taste of the wild, Horizon legacy.. there's a few really good ones out there. Just study the labels and switch really slow. Remember not every food is for every dog.
> 
> Might want to supplement with RMBs for dental health- tossing your dog a beef rib stripped of meat a couple times a week will do wonders for plaque buildup.


Forgot to mention TOTW - was another one I was looking into, just forgot to mention it in the OP. I know to switch her slowly, which is why I'm looking into it quite a ways in advance (as I said, she's probably not going to finish this bag for 2-3 months, so I will have quite a while to transition her once I decide on something). If you had to pick one of those, which would be your first choice? I realize my first choice might not end up right for her, but I can at least try it. 

I may try that, since I can't actually do raw (due to 1. people I live with would look at me like I'm crazy, 2. it just comes out being too expensive since I can only get meat from Kroger's, and I'm afraid I wouldn't be able to find everything necessary from there).


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## Jack Monzon (Jul 25, 2010)

Zar said:


> Yes, she's done very well on the Wellness Puppy.


Then if it were me, I'd go with the adult version of Wellness.


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## Zar (Sep 22, 2011)

Jack Monzon said:


> Then if it were me, I'd go with the adult version of Wellness.


This is what I originally thought, but Evo or TOTW comes out cheaper. I also kept getting mixed responses on it when reading around due to it containing canola oil - some said canola oil was perfectly fine, others said it was absolutely awful. So I figured I'd ask around first (though the Wellness puppy also contains canola oil).


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## Jack Monzon (Jul 25, 2010)

You can find mixed responses on any ingredient, and on any brand. If your dog has done well on Wellness, which is a very good food, then there's no reason to start jumping around to different brands. That's just my opinion.


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## Tobi (Mar 18, 2011)

truthdog said:


> Really why? Did you read somewhere that Sorghum is bad? Explain why the second ingredient is
> so important? I am curious about this, sounds like more internet myth like corn causes allergies.
> 
> Sorghum is considered a health food for people and is extremely nutritious for dogs. If Victor
> called it Milo like Castor & Pollux and many other "holistic" brands would it be more appealing?


sorghum is just another grain crop, and filler... again cite facts about it's healthful qualities for dogs please because you're making yourself look like an ass asking for facts when you don't provide your own.

Orijen, and arcanaare both lower in estimated carbs than Victor by about 15-20%, evo is just above 21% carbs, they seem better to me than this crap you're peddling.


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## Unosmom (May 3, 2009)

you can try doggiefood.com, acana is $60 lb large bag of chicken formula (more for other formulas) and free shipping on orders over $50. 
Heartypet.com has it for $53 plus shipping (you can find 50% off shipping on retailmenot.com)

You might also want to look into earthborn holistic primitive which is similar to Totw for less ($40 on doggiefood.com)


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## Zar (Sep 22, 2011)

Unosmom said:


> you can try doggiefood.com, acana is $60 lb large bag of chicken formula (more for other formulas) and free shipping on orders over $50.
> Heartypet.com has it for $53 plus shipping (you can find 50% off shipping on retailmenot.com)
> 
> You might also want to look into earthborn holistic primitive which is similar to Totw for less ($40 on doggiefood.com)


Doggiefood.com is where I've mostly been looking, hadn't seen heartypet.com though, so thanks for that. 
I'll have a look at the earthborn too.
ETA: Heartypet charges over $23 for shipping to my area, wow. Even with 50% off shipping, it's still around $12, so it doesn't really come out any cheaper + the added effort of getting half off shipping. Also, does anyone know if there's ethoxyquin in the Earthborn?


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## truthdog (Sep 10, 2011)

Tobi said:


> sorghum is just another grain crop, and filler... again cite facts about it's healthful qualities for dogs please because you're making yourself look like an ass asking for facts when you don't provide your own.
> 
> Orijen, and arcanaare both lower in estimated carbs than Victor by about 15-20%, evo is just above 21% carbs, they seem better to me than this crap you're peddling.


You are wrong too. I don't think you understand canine nutrition and what each component adds. 

You are the ass. You have one dog. I have 15 and have whelped 20 litters over the years. I have tested 3 new foods for two different companies in the past two years.

You are just an internet crackpot. You read a website about raw feeding and pretend you are an expert.

Try to figure out why you are wrong.


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## tem_sat (Jun 20, 2010)

Firstly regarding meat purchases, you live in Houston, the home of Action Meat Distributors. I purchase from them monthly and average about 75 cents per pound. Most likely you could even do a pick up directly from their offices, if you meet their minimum.

Secondly, I would try Pet Food Station for Acana. For some reason, their site seems to be down right now, but see: www.petfoodstation.com - Acana, Free Shipping over $50. Enter the code: WELCOME for $10.00 off your purchase. If you spend at least $50.00 after the discount, shipping is free.


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## Zar (Sep 22, 2011)

tem_sat said:


> Firstly regarding meat purchases, you live in Houston, the home of Action Meat Distributors. I purchase from them monthly and average about 75 cents per pound. Most likely you could even do a pick up directly from their offices, if you meet their minimum.
> 
> Secondly, I would try Pet Food Station for Acana. For some reason, their site seems to be down right now, but see: www.petfoodstation.com - Acana, Free Shipping over $50. Enter the code: WELCOME for $10.00 off your purchase. If you spend at least $50.00 after the discount, shipping is free.


I don't actually live in Houston, just the Houston area. I do not currently own my own car - I walk or get rides, therefore it's impossible for me to go to most places like this. This also doesn't change the fact that people I live with will most likely give me a lot of grief for raw.

Once the site is up I will definitely look there.


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## Tobi (Mar 18, 2011)

truthdog said:


> You are wrong too. I don't think you understand canine nutrition and what each component adds.
> 
> You are the ass. You have one dog. I have 15 and have whelped 20 litters over the years. I have tested 3 new foods for two different companies in the past two years.
> 
> ...


I'm not pretending to be an expert,and i have 2 dogs, goes to show what you really know about me. 
However I do very much understand Canine nutrition, and i do KNOW that dogs do not have a need for any carbohydrates, that's why i feed a diet of meat, bone , and organs.
I couldn't honestly care less about how many dogs you have, or how many litters you've brought up.
you're calling any food that is listed "complete crap" since it's not what you recommend. It's sooooooo cool that you're a kibble Fanboy, I couldn't care less about those 2 companies.

I'm not going to "try to figure out why i'm wrong" because i'm not... you've not listed a single credential, you've not contributed to a single thread in any positive way, you spout off crap about what are the best 3 kibbles on the market, *and they are grain inclusive*... your credibility was shot there... sorry.


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## Caty M (Aug 13, 2010)

I'm sure lots of people have raised 15+ dogs on Ol'Roy. DOesn't make them an expert in dog nutrition..... 

If dogs have a requirement for carbohydrates I really am at a loss as to why my dogs are still alive.. both been raw fed with no carbs since 8 weeks. Neither show any sign of malnourishment. 

If you think we are all idiots and you just argue every single post, why do you come back? You know full well the attitude of this forum in regards to food. It's not going to change because some little moron troll comes on every couple of months to argue the benefits of corn and low quality food. 

You really are ridiculous and obviously have no life. Just sayin'.


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## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

truthdog said:


> Try to figure out why you are wrong.


Why don't you explain? Exactly how is sorghum and corn good for dogs? 

I am not expert either. But I know corn is a filler in dog food. It's cheap. It's easy. It's not put in there because of its high nutritional content. 

I have never read any study or seen any scientific proof that says anything different than that. do you have something that proves it? I don't think anyone here is close minded. we are just convinced, through reading and reading AND looking at our dogs, that grain is a filler - not a solution.


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## meggels (May 30, 2010)

Earthborn is ethoxyquin free. It's a great food. I used to work for the company and feed it and it was one of the kibbles my dogs did best on  beautiful shiny coats and tiny poops. The primitive natural and great plains feast are the two grain free formulas I've tried with them.


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## PDXdogmom (Jun 30, 2010)

I think either the Wellness Core or the Acana lines might be good options for your dog in the next few months. I have fed my dogs both of these in their kibble rotations.


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## Zar (Sep 22, 2011)

Hey, how about we just stop responding to this nonsense argument rather than turn the thread into an irrelevant fight? I was not asking for grain free vs. grains or raw vs. kibble, or how many dogs or litters anyone has. I am only asking if tthe mentioned foods are unsuitable due to protein content/which would be best. Kind of dumb to let another thread turn into the same argument with the same person, IMO. 

Thankyou for the info on earthborn, I will definitely look more into it when I get home from work.


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## truthdog (Sep 10, 2011)

meggels said:


> Earthborn is ethoxyquin free. It's a great food. I used to work for the company and feed it and it was one of the kibbles my dogs did best on  beautiful shiny coats and tiny poops. The primitive natural and great plains feast are the two grain free formulas I've tried with them.


Since you worked at Midwestern Pet Foods you also represented the Pro Pac brand, correct?


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## truthdog (Sep 10, 2011)

xellil said:


> Why don't you explain? Exactly how is sorghum and corn good for dogs?
> 
> I am not expert either. But I know corn is a filler in dog food. It's cheap. It's easy. It's not put in there because of its high nutritional content.
> 
> I have never read any study or seen any scientific proof that says anything different than that. do you have something that proves it? I don't think anyone here is close minded. we are just convinced, through reading and reading AND looking at our dogs, that grain is a filler - not a solution.


You are wrong too. Corn and rice are not cheap and they both contain nutrients essential for a dog. Dogs need "nutrients" not ingredients. You have been suckered in by the marketing.

99% of adult dogs will never use more than about 25% protein, so spending money on a food with 35% or over 40% is a total waste of money. So when you adjust for the fact that nearly 50% of the protein is eliminated by the dog, all those low carbohydrate foods are not as sexy as you thing. Dogs do not metabolize protein for energy, rather growth and muscle repair and very 
small amounts for other processes. So when you feed a 40% protein food, your dog views it as a 25% protein food, so the amount of effective carbohydrates is much higher. The amount of 
carbohydrate and fat stay constant.

Also, you cannot evaluate the components of Protein/Fat/Carbohydrates by weight. So you 
cannot say a food is 25% carbohydrate because the sources are 25% of the foods overall 
weight. Fat has 3-5 times the calories per gram as carbohydrates and protein, so a GF food with 34% protein and 15% fat like Blue Wilderness has many more calories from carbohydrates than a 30/20 food with rice and corn. 

So when plunk down $75 a bag for a seemingly high protein low carb food you are just getting
screwed. Nice people just getting ripped off.


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## Unosmom (May 3, 2009)

> 99% of adult dogs will never use more than about 25% protein, so spending money on a food with 35% or over 40% is a total waste of money. So when you adjust for the fact that nearly 50% of the protein is eliminated by the dog, all those low carbohydrate foods are not as sexy as you thing. Dogs do not metabolize protein for energy, rather growth and muscle repair and very
> small amounts for other processes. So when you feed a 40% protein food, your dog views it as a 25% protein food, so the amount of effective carbohydrates is much higher. The amount of
> carbohydrate and fat stay constant.


I would like to see the source of your comments.


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## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

truthdog said:


> You have been suckered in by the marketing.


i wont' argue with that - I was suckered in by the marketing for most of my life.


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## Zar (Sep 22, 2011)

truthdog said:


> Since you worked at Midwestern Pet Foods you also represented the Pro Pac brand, correct?


This is irrelevant to the original question, please stop killing this thread for your own argument. This goes for everyone else responding to him as well.


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## minnieme (Jul 6, 2011)

Oi vey, people...once again, DO NOT FEED THE TROLL! :wink:


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## meggels (May 30, 2010)

truthdog said:


> Since you worked at Midwestern Pet Foods you also represented the Pro Pac brand, correct?


Midwestern was focusing much much much more on Earthborn Holistic, their newer and higher quality brand. I wore an Earthborn shirt, sold Earthborn products, fed it to my dogs myself, and focused solely on Earthborn. I'm not a fan of propac, as it contains a bunch of ingredients I would never feed my dogs.


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## meggels (May 30, 2010)

Zar said:


> This is irrelevant to the original question, please stop killing this thread for your own argument. This goes for everyone else responding to him as well.


He's going to post regardless. I'm surprised he hasn't been banned yet though...


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## truthdog (Sep 10, 2011)

Unosmom said:


> I would like to see the source of your comments.


I don't have that info handy, but it is has been established by years and years of research. I will 
try to retrieve it tomorrow.

Think about it though, why are so many foods 24-26% protein and 12-16% fat? Even dedicated sled and hunting dog foods are generally 30/20's. 

The garden variety medium-sized companion animal will never use more than say 75 grams of
protein, never, which is about 3 cups of a 25% food. Many dogs do quite well on about 50 grams

I am sorry so many people are offended with the truth.


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## truthdog (Sep 10, 2011)

minnieme said:


> Oi vey, people...once again, DO NOT FEED THE TROLL! :wink:


It is funny every one with a Great Dane is an expert!!! LOLLOLO


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## Unosmom (May 3, 2009)

what about bioavailability? if the food is 40% protein and made of corn gluten meal and soy, the dog can consume large amount and most likely poop out most of it. I havent fed anything less then 26% protein in 4 years because my dog would be eating at least 3 cups a day just to retain some of the nutrition and keep the weight on. He eats 1.5-2 cups of higher protein, grain free foods, most of it is between 32-38% protein with absolutely no issues. He is way more muscular then when he was eating low end grain inclusive food when I adopted him


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## minnieme (Jul 6, 2011)

truthdog said:


> It is funny every one with a Great Dane is an expert!!! LOLLOLO


I never claimed to be an expert on nutrition...not once did I chime in on this thread -- until that comment you posted about trolls...which I AM an expert on. People genuinely wishing to discuss a topic don't come to a forum and aggressively assert their views, name call people who disagree, and provide zero evidence or further info on the subject they so vehemently argue about. You're a troll and the only thing I was able to discern from your posts is that you're not worth my and most of the members' time (which is sad, because as previously stated, you did have some lucid and fair points which were muddled by your generally sour attitude towards the forum).


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## Zar (Sep 22, 2011)

meggels said:


> He's going to post regardless. I'm surprised he hasn't been banned yet though...


He can keep posting, sure, but by responding to his arguments you're going to accomplish nothing. He's not going to change his opinion and you're not going to change yours. It's just going to fan the flames and give him more to respond to. "Don't feed the trolls" is very correct, even though I wouldn't exactly call him a troll entirely. If you want to debate grains vs. no grains with him, why not start a thread for that rather than derailing this one? A simple question I asked has now been turned into a massive debate that is irrelevant to the original question, rendering the thread useless. I suppose I will avoid starting threads in the future.


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## minnieme (Jul 6, 2011)

Back to the OP,

If you feel your dog is doing very well on a brand, I would find the adult formula for that brand as someone else suggested. I don't think it's a bad idea to rotate every once in a while...but I would start with a base food that you know for sure works.


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## Scarlett_O' (May 19, 2011)

Zar said:


> He can keep posting, sure, but by responding to his arguments you're going to accomplish nothing. He's not going to change his opinion and you're not going to change yours. It's just going to fan the flames and give him more to respond to. *"Don't feed the trolls" is very correct, even though I wouldn't exactly call him a troll.*


Sorry, but that's exactly what he is....he has popped up quite a few times and done the whole troll thing....and he started it buy name calling and posting bs. Those who have so far responded to him where calling him out on his bs, we(as normal, intelligent forum members) didnt ask for him to enter any of the threads he is on...he enters them with an idiotic post and then continues.


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## Zar (Sep 22, 2011)

minnieme said:


> Back to the OP,
> 
> If you feel your dog is doing very well on a brand, I would find the adult formula for that brand as someone else suggested. I don't think it's a bad idea to rotate every once in a while...but I would start with a base food that you know for sure works.


I keep debating this or the Acana as it seems really good. The only thing I was hoping to see different if I chose something besides Wellness was how much she liked it. As I mentioned earlier she eats the Wellness ok, but seems much more excited about cheaper/lower quality food (Diamond Naturals) fed to the other (shared) dogs I have. Not that she refuses to eat the Wellness, she just never seems terribly excited about it.


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## Scarlett_O' (May 19, 2011)

Zar said:


> I keep debating this or the Acana as it seems really good. The only thing I was hoping to see different if I chose something besides Wellness was how much she liked it. As I mentioned earlier she eats the Wellness ok, but seems much more excited about cheaper/lower quality food (Diamond Naturals) fed to the other (shared) dogs I have. Not that she refuses to eat the Wellness, she just never seems terribly excited about it.


My Brody liked Acana better then any other kibble he was on!:wink:


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## meggels (May 30, 2010)

Earthborn's Primitive Natural has driven several dogs I know crazy lol  They start drooling over it.


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## Jack Monzon (Jul 25, 2010)

Zar said:


> I keep debating this or the Acana as it seems really good. The only thing I was hoping to see different if I chose something besides Wellness was how much she liked it. As I mentioned earlier she eats the Wellness ok, but seems much more excited about cheaper/lower quality food (Diamond Naturals) fed to the other (shared) dogs I have. Not that she refuses to eat the Wellness, she just never seems terribly excited about it.


You could also try different flavors of Wellness, to see if she's attracted more to different proteins. My dog is more excited about lamb than to chicken.

There's nothing wrong with the other foods people are mentioning; I think the reason I would stay with Wellness is because the difference, quality-wise, between it and the others mentioned is negligible, and you already know your dog performs well on it, which is a huge positive. It's understandable that you'd like your dog to be more excited about meals -- maybe try some other varieties of Wellness before hopping on the Food Roller Coaster full force.


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## DaViking (Sep 27, 2011)

truthdog said:


> It is funny every one with a Great Dane is an expert!!! LOLLOLO


Off topic alert

Really, in this thread too?! I'm new here so I've been reading up. You are all over the place.

Sorry, know I am new here and all that but I can't help myself. Truthdog listen, some of the points you bring up in various threads arn't all that dumb or outlandish, at least they can be used as a base for a normal discussion. However whatever knowledge you have is going to waste because you behave like a di** everywhere. 

cheers
Tim


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