# To neuter or not to neuter?



## Kat (Jul 12, 2011)

Oscar will turn 1 year old on August 22. I have been mostly on the side of not neutering him, but then hear mixed reviews. I have heard a lot of people saying, if you decide not to neuter a male dog, they can never be let off leash in a non fenced area because they will run off if they smell a female dog in heat - even with a solid recall.

Oscar is still not trained to the point of being off leash, he's too crazy outside. With the help of a dog behaviorist/trainer he just recently started to enjoy going outside. Before he was terrified and anxious of even leaving the apartment. 

Anyway, when the day comes for me to actually start training off leash, I would be absolutely horrified if he ran off and I couldn't find him, that would kill me. And I don't like fenced in dog parks in my area because most of the dogs that go there are big dogs, and a lot of owners bring ill mannered dogs who go crazy and bulldoze through the other dogs. 

So now I don't know what to do. It never really crossed my mind with the whole running off thing until now... Opinions? Suggestions?

ETA - also, Oscar has a few retained puppy teeth that my vet strongly wants me to extract ASAP. I told him I will wait until Oscar is 1 year old. So, if I do decide to neuter I would rather just do it when he's getting extractions, as to not put him under twice. But then I hear and read about the benefits of later neutering no sooner than 18 months old.


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## Liz (Sep 27, 2010)

I cannot tell you what to do about the neutering except to tell you I have never had a neutered or spayed dog. My dogs all have strong recalls, and are not mannerless twits around other females. We right now have a female in heat and two intact males in the house. They will both come when called and though they are definitely in lust right now they are not out of control. Behavior is dependent on how well we have bonded and trained our dogs. I know many people who have neutered only to avoid or stop marking. Marking is a behavior/habit and can and should be trained. Neutering will not necessarily stop marking, chasing, or general stupidity.  Recalls off leash are something that should be diligently trained and proofed before even dreaming of relying on in public. MY adults are rarely off leash because I know it only takes once for them to choose to disobey or be slow to obey and they could be injured or killed. For exercise when they don't have access to a fenced area to run in I use a 20 foot line. 

There are many issues coming up in favor of not neutering and I would just suggest you do your research and decide what would be best and healthiest for your dog and your lifestyle. Neutering is going to change too much in the case of obedience behaviors. JMHO

Liz


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## Kat (Jul 12, 2011)

Great response, thank you Liz. One thing I have been lucky with - Oscar has never marked, or even attempted to mark in our house, or my friends and my moms bf's house either. I don't know if it has anything to do with being pee pad trained, but once he got house broken he only goes to the pee pad tray  

I do have a 50 foot training leash for him, which I do use when we go on trail walks through the forest, since he is still a clumsy goof, I know for him one distraction at this point and he would be bolting towards it lol. 

And, he just started "living" his life, now that he actually enjoys going outside since the dog behaviorist/trainer came to help me with him. So that was one of my biggest concerns, if I do neuter, what if he resorts back to being fearful and anxious of being outside? I have never owned an intact dog, and so far I have not had any issues with him, except for the occasional times when he tries to hump Ruby lol.


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## Tobi (Mar 18, 2011)

If we ever get another dog, there will be no alteration. It's up to you really but to me the choice is clear.


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## dredges (May 18, 2012)

do you plan on him socializing with other dogs?

then neuter him

other dogs are way more likely to attack an un-neutered dog

Really unless your planning on breeding and showing the dog I can't see why you wouldn't neuter him


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## Tobi (Mar 18, 2011)

dredges said:


> do you plan on him socializing with other dogs?
> 
> then neuter him
> 
> ...


I've never heard of a dog being more prone to being attacked because they were in tact? Sounds sill to me. There are many many many reasons not to spay or neuter, just some quick research I drowns this...


On balance, it appears that no compelling case can be made for neutering most male dogs, especially immature male dogs, in order to prevent future health problems. The number of health problems associated with neutering may exceed the associated health benefits in most cases.
On the positive side, neutering male dogs
• eliminates the small risk (probably <1%) of dying from testicular cancer
• reduces the risk of non-cancerous prostate disorders
• reduces the risk of perianal fistulas
• may possibly reduce the risk of diabetes (data inconclusive)

On the negative side, neutering male dogs
• if done before 1 year of age, significantly increases the risk of osteosarcoma (bone cancer); this is a
common cancer in medium/large and larger breeds with a poor prognosis.
• increases the risk of cardiac hemangiosarcoma by a factor of 1.6
• triples the risk of hypothyroidism
• increases the risk of progressive geriatric cognitive impairment
• triples the risk of obesity, a common health problem in dogs with many associated health problems
• quadruples the small risk (<0.6%) of prostate cancer
• doubles the small risk (<1%) of urinary tract cancers
• increases the risk of orthopedic disorders
• increases the risk of adverse reactions to vaccinations

For female dogs, the situation is more complex. The number of health benefits associated with spaying may exceed the associated health problems in some (not all) cases. On balance, whether spaying improves the odds of overall good health or degrades them probably depends on the age of the female dog and the relative risk of various diseases in the different breeds.
On the positive side, spaying female dogs
• if done before 2.5 years of age, greatly reduces the risk of mammary tumors, the most common
malignant tumors in female dogs
• nearly eliminates the risk of pyometra, which otherwise would affect about 23% of intact female
dogs; pyometra kills about 1% of intact female dogs
• reduces the risk of perianal fistulas
• removes the very small risk (≤0.5%) from uterine, cervical, and ovarian tumors

On the negative side, spaying female dogs
• if done before 1 year of age, significantly increases the risk of osteosarcoma (bone cancer); this is a
common cancer in larger breeds with a poor prognosis
• increases the risk of splenic hemangiosarcoma by a factor of 2.2 and cardiac hemangiosarcoma by
a factor of >5; this is a common cancer and major cause of death in some breeds
• triples the risk of hypothyroidism
• increases the risk of obesity by a factor of 1.6-2, a common health problem in dogs with many
associated health problems
• causes urinary “spay incontinence” in 4-20% of female dogs
• increases the risk of persistent or recurring urinary tract infections by a factor of 3-4
• increases the risk of recessed vulva, vaginal dermatitis, and vaginitis, especially for female dogs
spayed before puberty
• doubles the small risk (<1%) of urinary tract tumors
• increases the risk of orthopedic disorders
• increases the risk of adverse reactions to vaccinations


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## 1605 (May 27, 2009)

dredges said:


> do you plan on him socializing with other dogs?
> 
> then neuter him
> 
> ...


From where are you getting this information? A dog that has been properly socialized & trained will not simply just "attack an un-neutered [sic] dog". 

I have two well trained male dogs. They aren't randomly singled out by other dogs for attack simply because they are intact.


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## doggiedad (Jan 23, 2011)

i've never neutered my dogs and neither has my Vet and neither has my VET. i crack me up.


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## naturalfeddogs (Jan 6, 2011)

dredges said:


> do you plan on him socializing with other dogs?
> 
> then neuter him
> 
> ...



Intact males can be socialized just as well as any other dog. That comes from training, not neutering. 

Where did you ever hear that they are way more likely to be attacked by other dogs? That's not true at all. Both of my boys, Shadow and Aussie are both intact and always will be, as will any other males we have in the future. As posted in an above post by Tobi, there are benefits to leaving them intact.


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## dredges (May 18, 2012)

I know from experience and observation. 
I see it at the dog park all the time, un-neutered male dog enters park, pack of dogs sniff his rear, aggression flares.
I have also seen Cesar Millan mention this problem on his show multiple times when he introduces a new dog to the pack. 

I know that there's a huge dog population problem on this planet and far too many homeless and unwanted dogs. I personally believe that unless your showing a dog or professionally breeding dogs to further the breed's standards, etc... etc... then the benefits of everyone neutering their pets outweighs whatever supposed health benefits. Leave the breeding to the professionals. There are few exceptions, but for 99% of people this is what I feel.

I do however agree that it is important to wait till at least six months for most breeds. I see a lot of shelters and rescues neutering young animals to adopt them


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## Tobi (Mar 18, 2011)

dredges said:


> I know from experience and observation.
> I see it at the dog park all the time, un-neutered male dog enters park, pack of dogs sniff his rear, aggression flares.
> I have also seen Cesar Millan mention this problem on his show multiple times when he introduces a new dog to the pack.
> 
> ...


So even responsible owners shouldn't own dogs intact because they aren't breeding them, or showing them? Sounds exceptionally silly to me. RESPONSIBLE owners are just that, responsible with their dogs, meaning there wouldn't be any accidental litters... And six months old? Sx months bone platelets aren't even fully developed, hormones haven't finished cycling... You're telling me it's perfectly healthy to spay or neuter a dog before any of that has had a chance to develop?

I don't even want to get started on the dog kicker lol...


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## lauren43 (Feb 6, 2011)

Dredges you clearly don't know what a professional breeder even looks like, so leaving it to the professionals is a moot point. Tomorrow I could go get myself two pure bred dogs and tell you everything you want to know about the breed and the parents and the pups they will produce. It's called lying people do it everyday. That doesn't make me a professional.

I know I had this mind set at one point but when did America start thinking unaltered dog equals they will breed at some point in their life? I can tell you right know that the great breeders, I mean the truly good ones (I bet I could count them on my hands) are not part of the population issue. It's the people who put two dogs together because they'd make cute puppies that are the issue, they don't care where the pups go to who they go to they just want them gone.

The chihuahua I just got is unaltered and I'm thinking I will leave him that way.


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## Kat (Jul 12, 2011)

Yes, there are stupid people out there who don't get dogs altered and don't even bother watching them and end up having multiple unwanted litters. I live in an apartment, even if I didn't, I would never leave my dogs outside unattended. I know for a fact that if I do end up not neutering Oscar, he will never ever be breeding on purpose or by accident. 

I mean, I don't HAVE to train him off leash recall. When we go for trail walks I could just stick with his 50 foot training leash, gives more than enough freedom. Just Ruby is so amazing off leash, and I can tell she does have fun running free and she never goes far and her recall is unbelievable. So I was hoping eventually Oscar could be like that too. But, for off leash fun I still have the option of my moms bf's fully fenced huge backyard that's only a ten min walk from my place which we do visit a few times a week.


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## lauren43 (Feb 6, 2011)

Kat I personally don't think recall has anything to do with altered not altered. Avery has no recall, none. I live had him since August 2010 and he was neutered at like 5 months. Lincoln, my new boy, has no need even for a leash. And he's not altered lol!


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## Celt (Dec 27, 2010)

Having a "fixed" pet guarantees oops litters won't happen. I'm not saying you have to get your pup "fixed" but you must remember that it's not just your pet you will have to be watchful of. I've seen a dog get "caught" at the dog park (luckily, it was a "dead" day, just me and a couple others). The male's owner couldn't believe the female's brought her to the park when she was in heat. The female's owner said she didn't know her dog was in heat. Not something, i'd ever think about, if I hadn't seen this. Kind of hard to get across an acre of land before "whoopsies" :noidea:


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## Kat (Jul 12, 2011)

Guess Oscar is just one of those crazy dogs who won't get recall. He's so bouncy and everywhere goof ball lol. Lauren43, congrats on the new addition! I must have missed when you got another dog


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## Sprocket (Oct 4, 2011)

Personally I will always neuter my dogs at some point. Perhaps I will wait a little longer the next time (rescues usually require it ASAP). 

IME/O intact males stink, literally they smell bad so I don't want to live with a dog that I can't tolerate the smell of.

My next dog will most likely (hopefully) wait until he is at least 2 to alter.


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## dredges (May 18, 2012)

My last dog was never neutered and he got attacked more than a few times.

My current pup we neutered as soon as we thought it was ok, we waited 8 months. I wanted it done before he started marking because I saw his dad do it, his dad actually tried to mark me when I was inspecting his mother, the vet said he was probably marking his territory.

We wanted a pet that didn't have to wear a diaper


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## Liz (Sep 27, 2010)

Kat - the only time I have seen intact males get charged or attacked is more due to their body posture or a measure of arrogance they are putting off than the fact of being intact. A young intact male (I have two here right now) tend to have a swagger and bit of an attitude. My girls are forever adjusting their attitudes here at home. By three years old they will calm themselves and be easy. As for the off leash recall I think it is an important behavior to train for accidents when he gets out or slips his collar but I really don't rely on it. Your pup is also very, very young to be expecting off leash anything really. You will see some time in the next few months he will start to focus more and you will see training you are doing now coming through in his behavior and he will become more trustworthy. 

Give him time and relax before you make decisions. Under 18 months for even a small dog is not their best time of life. They are teenagers which means they are impulsive, silly and unfocused. All this will change soon. 

Liz


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## Kat (Jul 12, 2011)

Well said Liz! And you're right, he is really young. I see some people who let pups as young as 6 months off leash, so I thought maybe I was behind on off leash training or something lol. 

Oscar did meet a neutered male a few days ago on our walk and the interaction went really well. Me and the owner talked for about 5 mins and there was no negative reactions from Oscar or the other dog.


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## Liz (Sep 27, 2010)

Oh Kat - My first collie loved to work and she went through puppy training, beginning, intermediate and advanced classes by 9 months old. She was a "perfect" obedience dog. One night during class in the park she lost her little collie brain right out her long nose and on a go out decided to run these crazy out of control circles. She did this for about five minutes that felt like forever while the whole class fanned out to try and keep her contained. She finished and recalled straight to me. LOL I never trusted a young dog again no matter how well trained they seem they are still youngins and their brains fall out once in a while. One day Oscar will surprise you with his adult and gentlemanly behavior.


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## naturalfeddogs (Jan 6, 2011)

dredges said:


> I know from experience and observation.
> I see it at the dog park all the time, un-neutered male dog enters park, pack of dogs sniff his rear, aggression flares.
> I have also seen Cesar Millan mention this problem on his show multiple times when he introduces a new dog to the pack.
> 
> ...


Ceaser Milan?? :tsk: Sorry, but that's enough right there to make me believe the opposite. Sounds more like dogs who don't need to be at the dog park. JMO.


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## dredges (May 18, 2012)

naturalfeddogs said:


> Ceaser Milan?? :tsk: Sorry, but that's enough right there to make me believe the opposite. Sounds more like dogs who don't need to be at the dog park. JMO.


like him or not Ceaser Milan is an EXPERT on dog pack behavior.

and btw my un-neutered dog didn't have any Swagger, he was really shy and quiet. Like I said more than once dogs would sniff his junk and attack, he was always calm and submissive. He was a German shepherd blue healer mix. 

I had to swing an axe at 2 Akitas once while at my friends cabin, we were chilling by the lake and I tied my dog to a tree with about 25 feet of cable, so he could get a couple feet into the lake if he wanted, as we were fishing, out of nowhere 2 loose Akita's come bounding in and before I could blink one had my dog by the throat and the other was pissing on him, this probably didn't have anything to do with him being non-neutered, but talk about out of control A-hole dogs, I grabbed an old axe that was leaning against the tree and went to swing it, the head fell off the axe but I hit that Akita 3 or 4 times before his owner ran over and tried to control them, that's when they bolted off and I rushed my dog to a vet to get stitched up.


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## Tobi (Mar 18, 2011)

dredges said:


> like him or not Ceaser Milan is an EXPERT on dog pack behavior.


Based on? Cable television? :tsk:


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## lauren43 (Feb 6, 2011)

dredges said:


> like him or not Ceaser Milan is an EXPERT on dog pack behavior.


Omg I am dying inside. Cesar is an expert??? Who knew!

Sorry about what happened to your dog, unfortunately there are tons of irresponsible dog owners in this world, clearly the Akitas' owners are one of many.


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## naturalfeddogs (Jan 6, 2011)

dredges said:


> like him or not Ceaser Milan is an EXPERT on dog pack behavior.
> 
> and btw my un-neutered dog didn't have any Swagger, he was really shy and quiet. Like I said more than once dogs would sniff his junk and attack, he was always calm and submissive. He was a German shepherd blue healer mix.
> 
> I had to swing an axe at 2 Akitas once while at my friends cabin, we were chilling by the lake and I tied my dog to a tree with about 25 feet of cable, so he could get a couple feet into the lake if he wanted, as we were fishing, out of nowhere 2 loose Akita's come bounding in and before I could blink one had my dog by the throat and the other was pissing on him, this probably didn't have anything to do with him being non-neutered, but talk about out of control A-hole dogs, I grabbed an old axe that was leaning against the tree and went to swing it, the head fell off the axe but I hit that Akita 3 or 4 times before his owner ran over and tried to control them, that's when they bolted off and I rushed my dog to a vet to get stitched up.


CM isn't an expert on anything but abuse, both mental and physical.

Everything else you said here has nothing to do with being neuterd or not. Akitas are a breed that can have dog aggression issues anyway, if not properly socialized. They aren't a breed for everyone and it sounds like someone shouldn't have them.


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## meggels (May 30, 2010)

CM is an expert on dog pack behavior?? Where did he get his training? He was a groomer for god's sake.

If you want real experts, stick with the people that have education behind them, as well as practical experience, such as Ian Dunbar or Patricia McConnell....


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## dredges (May 18, 2012)

lol, you guys should get a show and a contract to write books then

:twitch::tsk::tsk::tsk:


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## meggels (May 30, 2010)

His showmanship and outgoing personality is what got him famous. Not his expertise on dog behavior.

I mean really...women from The Real Housewives franchise have tv shows and release books. Does this mean they are experts lol? Where there's an audience and in turn, money, there will be tv shows and book deals for people with large personalities.


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## naturalfeddogs (Jan 6, 2011)

No books needed. The TV says it all.


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## DeekenDog (Aug 29, 2011)

I haven't posted on here in a while but I'll contribute my 2 cents. 

First on the intact males being more likely to attract aggression from neutered males- I do believe this to an extent. I see it quite frequently at the clinic I work at and my own dog wants to go after intact dogs. From my own observations (whatever they're worth), it seems that neutered males who are already prone to dog aggression/selectiveness (Deeken is very much dog selective) tend to dislike intact males. That being said, neutered males who go after intact males (my own dog included) do not belong in dog park situations or off-leash at all if they do not have solid recall. Deeken is allowed off-leash on the trails (fairly remote- we often don't see any other dogs/people at all) and he has both excellent recall (and he has developed an automatic "come" at the sight of another dog) and a "bush" command (avoid the other dog and go into the bush). He also knows that it is completely unacceptable to go after other dogs and the behaviour has been replaced by looking at me for cookies :thumb: unless the other dog is completely rude and in his face. We do not go to dog parks (for many reasons) and I live in an area with almost no intact dogs (so their general "novelty" may contribute).

All that being said, I do not think that the behaviour of random male dogs should be a deciding factor in your neutering Oscar, unless you're big into dog parks (it seems so few people actually know whether their dog is an appropriate dog park dog). If you do decide to neuter, I would wait until he's at least 18 months and I would remove the teeth then. If you put him under an anaesthetic sooner to remove the teeth, I would neuter at the same time, so that it wouldn't come to a second anaesthetic later on. Anaesthetics are a huge deal for the body so better to just do one, especially since he is a small breed and likely already has a lot of the growth benefits of being kept intact. I don't really think his recall will have anything to do with his neutering.

Personally, if I ever end up with an intact male dog (this is a conundrum for me but likely will never happen) he will be kept intact unless he needs to be put under an anaesthetic for something else after he is fully mature. I just find the stress of an anaesthetic to be too great a price to pay for what is an elective procedure.


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## smaughunter (Apr 27, 2012)

My first dog, Ananda, was altered right at 6 months, as per generally accepted practice at the time. When I got Kiora in 2006 she was already 9 months old and I got her altered a month later, at 10 months. I also had her umbilical hernia removed at the same time. By that time I felt it was probably better to let a dog mature a bit before altering but I didn't know that early altering caused in increase for many health problems. My Ananda got bone marrow cancer at the age of 10 and after a battle for her life had to be eauthanized. Did early altering cause her to get bone cancer? I'll never know but after I lost her I researched and rethought many of my previous conceptions about dog care. I switched Kiora from kibble onto raw and will no longer give her any vaccine boosters except for the rabies. 


I probably will alter my next dog but certainly not before one year ever again, and maybe closer to 2. 

To think that I may have contributed to my dogs death by altering her at 6 months is devastating. Ananda was my heart and there is an empty place inside me now that she is gone. No one can ever guarantee the time that we will have with our dogs but I never want to look at the life of any dog I care for and wonder if I am to blame for their death. That is why I advocate late altering or leaving intact.


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## Dude and Bucks Mamma (May 14, 2011)

dredges said:


> do you plan on him socializing with other dogs?
> 
> then neuter him
> 
> ...


This is untrue. I have three intact males and, when we used to go to parks, they were only ever picked on by one dog and the owner was the problem. The dog went after all dogs, neutered and intact. My dogs socialize with others fabulously. They are three very different breeds and very different ages. One is a 9.5 year old Smooth Collie, one is a 2 year old Bluetick Coonhound, and the third is an 8 month old Standard Xoloitzcuintli. And they are great at home too. We don't have any scuffles in our house. We haven't had a real scuffle since Buck was a puppy and Dude was getting used to sharing his house and we have never had an actual fight.

Keeping a dog intact is worth it for the health benefits. 

Kat, I, personally, don't believe in ANY dog being off leash just anywhere simply because of good recall. Even the best dog can lose his brain and take off after something. All it takes is once. At home, however, two of my three are taken out off leash daily. Dude and Iorveth both have great recall in our front yard and I trust them to come out with me off leash just to pee (although Iorveth's teenager-ness is starting to show so he may be restricted to on leash for a while). Intact dogs CAN be off leash. Balls don't matter to me when it comes to being off leash. If I don't feel it's safe for my intact dogs then it wouldn't feel safe if they were neutered either. 



dredges said:


> I know from experience and observation.
> I see it at the dog park all the time, un-neutered male dog enters park, pack of dogs sniff his rear, aggression flares.
> I have also seen Cesar Millan mention this problem on his show multiple times when he introduces a new dog to the pack.
> 
> ...


And we have seen from our experience that it isn't true. Multiple people with intact males just posted that our intact dogs are not singled out. A dog park is not a good place to make these observations because dogs are not properly introduced at a dog park and many of the people who go to dog parks have no idea how to communicate with their dogs and how to train a dog. People often use dog parks as a form of exercise without doing any prep work. 

And Cesar Millan knows next to nothing about dogs so that what he says doesn't matter much. 



Sprocket said:


> Personally I will always neuter my dogs at some point. Perhaps I will wait a little longer the next time (rescues usually require it ASAP).
> 
> IME/O intact males stink, literally they smell bad so I don't want to live with a dog that I can't tolerate the smell of.
> 
> My next dog will most likely (hopefully) wait until he is at least 2 to alter.


Mine don't stink. Well, Buck does a little because he is a hound and has the raw fed version of the musky hound smell. Dude has no odor and Iorveth smells like Cocoa butter 



dredges said:


> My last dog was never neutered and he got attacked more than a few times.
> 
> My current pup we neutered as soon as we thought it was ok, we waited 8 months. I wanted it done before he started marking because I saw his dad do it, his dad actually tried to mark me when I was inspecting his mother, the vet said he was probably marking his territory.
> 
> We wanted a pet that didn't have to wear a diaper


Two dogs is not enough to have enough observation to make facts with. And why was your dog wearing a diaper? Why was he allowed to mark? Like I said, I have three intact males and none of them mark indoors. Many males, intact or not will mark outside. My late brittany was neutered young and that dog was a marking fool outside. Outside, he would mark anything and everything. Neutering does NOT solve marking. raining does. None of my three mark indoors and only one marks outdoors. And none of them have ever worn diapers. 

CM, an expert??? That's too funny. The fact that his followers actually fall for the abuse he calls training is ridiculous. He has his followers buffaloed, that's for sure. He might offer a quick fix but he doesn't train in a way that will be a lasting solution. It makes for great television but it certainly isn't training. If he is such an expert how did he not see that Lab giving off all of those warning signals before she bit him?




KAT, I, personally, would leave Oscar intact. If, later, after he is 2, then you can get him neutered. For now, though, I would leave him intact, for sure. 

And his recall doesn't need to be perfect yet. I didn't even THINK about letting Iorveth off leash until he was 7 months and, now that he is heading into that teenager stage, is going out more often with a leash on again because his brain abandons him on occasion. It happens. They aren't perfect and Oscar and Iorveth are still babies. Iorveth isn't focused on running off (just rolling in the dead bird/spot where the dead bird was) but it still shows that his thickheaded hormone ridden baby brain just isn't ready to be fully trusted off leash yet. And probably not for quite a while yet. Not a biggie. They both have plenty of life ahead of them to enjoy off leash time once their recall is solid.


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