# Are dogs really carnivores ?



## GermanSheperdlover (Nov 15, 2009)

This post isn't to start a bunch of crap. It just seems to me when times got lean for wild dogs they might dig for roots or berries or? The reason I kinda think they did is because I had a GSD once that used to pull raspberries off the bush and eat them. I have also heard of dogs eating strawberries, blackberries and other things on their own. Just why do dogs dig and just dig to dig. I have some other thoughts about wild dogs eating other things to survive. Just wondering about your thoughts on this.


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## RawFedDogs (Jun 16, 2008)

Yes, dogs are carnivores. They are decended from wolves who are also carnivores. There are physical charateristics that make an animal a carnivore or omnivore.

1. Carnivores have large mouths as they eat other animals. Omnivores/herbivores have smaller mouths.

2. Omnivores have flat teeth in the back of their mouths. This is used to crush and mash plant material. All plant material has each cell coated with cellulose. You must mash and crush this shell to extract nutrients from the plant. Humans have these flat teeth. Carnivores don't have flat teeth. They can't get through the cellulose to get to the nutrients. Carnivore teeth are designed to kill prey(front teeth) and to rip and tear meat and crush bones(back teeth).

3. When omnivores/herbivores chew, they move their lower jaw not only up and down but also sideways in order to crush the cellulose. Carnivores don't have the ability to move their lower jaw from side to side. Only up and down.

4. Omnivores/herbivores hae an enzyme called amylaze in their salava and stomach juices. Amylaze is used to digest plant material and digestion begins in the mouth for these animals. Carnivores don't have amylaze in their salava or stomach. They don't make the enzymes necessary for digesting plant material.

5. I don't know how to explain it with words but there is a difference in the way the lower jaw is hinged in omnivores/herbivores and carnivores. Feel your own jaw bone. It begins at the joint with the skull and goes down then angles toward the front. Carnivores jaws start at the skull and go straight toward the front.

6. Carnivores have very acidic stomach juices to kill bacteria on meats and to digest bones. Omnivores/herbivores have much less acidic stomach juices.

7. Omnivores/herbivores have relatively long intestinal tracts. Carbs must ferment in the gut for a long time during digestion. Carnivores being meat eaters have a very short intestinal tract in order to get the meat through the body quickly before it rots. With their short intestinal tract they are not able to have carbs in the intestines long enough to digest.

8. Omnivores/herbivores chew their food into a mush before they swallow it. Digestion in an omnivore begins in the mouth. Carnivores only rip, tear, and crunch their food until it is small enough to fit down their throat. They can fit some amazingly large pieces down their throat. Much larger than an omnivore is capable of.

So there you have your biology lesson in a nutshell. There is no arguing the fact that dogs are carnivores. They have all the physical characteristics of a carnivore and none of the omnivores characteristics.

Yes, dogs will sometimes eat berries in the wild because they are sweet and taste good. Their bodies are incapable of deriving any nutrition from them, however. And also yes, any smart animal will eat most anything when he is starving.


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## rannmiller (Jun 27, 2008)

Also, dogs dig because of a denning instinct or because they were bred to do so to catch whatever it is they were bred to hunt. Wolves also sometimes bury their food in the wild to come back to later, which is why a lot of dogs will bury their bones or toys. Just to address the digging portion of your questions since RFD answered everything else.


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## SuZQuzie (Nov 26, 2009)

RFD, while there are several fallacies in some of your statements, the one that bugs me the most is the amylase argument. Salivary amylase is found in rodents and primates and a few obscure animals here and there. For the most part, however, it is absent in the saliva of most every other animal, including herbivores and carnivores. Cattle? Nope. Horses? Nope. Pigs? Nope. Humans are more of an exception than a rule.



As of now, canines are not considered obligate carnivores by the books. 

While I would never, ever suggest feeding a dog a flake of hay, I have no problem giving them hydrolyzable carbohydrates which require no fermentation to break down. They are the "high sugar and starch" foods such as potatoes, berries, bananas, mangoes, and tomatoes. While they is no requirement for the actual CHO, these foods can still offer a variety of vitamins, minerals, and antioxidants not easily found in animal-based foods.


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## RawFedDogs (Jun 16, 2008)

SuZQuzie said:


> For the most part, however, it is absent in the saliva of most every other animal, including herbivores and carnivores. Cattle? Nope. Horses? Nope. Pigs? Nope. Humans are more of an exception than a rule.


Amalyse is not found in carnivores because it is used to digest plant matter. It is not found in cattle and horses because their digestive systems are entirely different. They have multiple stomachs to digest plant material. Digestion for them is a whole different process. I'm not sure pigs if pigs have it or not.



> As of now, canines are not considered obligate carnivores by the books.


Anytime I see the works "obligate carnivores", I know I'm talking to someone who is going to try to convince me that a dog is an omnivore which they aren't.



> While I would never, ever suggest feeding a dog a flake of hay, I have no problem giving them hydrolyzable carbohydrates which require no fermentation to break down.


I have serious problems with it and woudln't feed it to my dogs for anything.



> They are the "high sugar and starch" foods such as potatoes, berries, bananas, mangoes, and tomatoes. While they is no requirement for the actual CHO, these foods can still offer a variety of vitamins, minerals, and antioxidants not easily found in animal-based foods.


Care to name some?


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## GermanSheperdlover (Nov 15, 2009)

WOW, In the Seattle Times today they had an article on a COYOTE attack in the midle of the city. Pretty unreal. Here is a quote by one of the wildlife people 

"And, says the service, coyotes are equal-opportunity diners. They don’t mind feasting on grass, fruits, and berries. Their meals also included mice, rats, gophers, mountain beavers, rabbits, squirrels, snakes, lizards, frogs, fish, birds, and carrion."

Don't get me wrong because I really think meat is what a dog should eat. Notice how they say "meals also include", sends a message to the normal dog owner that these food groups are good for dogs. Now I'll go back and read what everyone has said so far.

Here is a link to the article and notice it was in the middle of the day. I thought coyotes were night tme hunters. 

Local News | Dog injured after coyote attack in Magnolia | Seattle Times Newspaper


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## rannmiller (Jun 27, 2008)

For the record, dogs are more closely related to wolves than they are to coyotes.


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## RawFedDogs (Jun 16, 2008)

From what you quoted, it said that they "don't mind" eating grass, etc." It also says their diet includes mice and other animals. I guess if they are very hungry or near starving they will eat grass, etc. 

Like rannmiller said, dogs are much closer to wolves than coyotes. I mean MUCH closer.


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## GermanSheperdlover (Nov 15, 2009)

Are their any breeds of dogs that can be traced back to coyotes ?? I live about 20 miles north of Seattle and up until about 20 years ago you could hear the coyotes howling at night. I recently have gotten my young Shepherd to howl, funny as heck:biggrin:. I get him to howl while on my bed with me.

Oh, by the way I am watching a show (dirty jobs) on dog food. Pretty cool show about frozen food and stuffed hoves.


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## jdatwood (Apr 13, 2009)

GermanSheperdlover said:


> I recently have gotten my young Shepherd to howl, funny as heck:biggrin:. I get him to howl while on my bed with me.


Shiloh howls too.... although she is ~45% wolf :wink:


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## malluver1005 (Nov 15, 2009)

jdatwood said:


> Shiloh howls too.... although she is ~45% wolf :wink:


Aspen is supposed to be a howler!! And he's only done it about 3 times in his life. He does woo woo a lot though... :wink:


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## rannmiller (Jun 27, 2008)

I love the vocal breeds like huskies and mals! (but not hounds and beagles, I am biased)


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## GermanSheperdlover (Nov 15, 2009)

He first howled when a lady at one of the dog parks was playing a harmonica. She told me she hits a certain key and her dogs start up. It was crazy, their was about 10 or 12 dogs standing around howling, took us awhile to get a couple of those dogs to quit. I was at a different park after that and some distance away some dogs were barking. All of sudden mine started howling, then 7 more joined in. That was one of the funnyist things I have ever seen. Some of the dogs had never howled before and the owners were freaking out, which was really funny, watching them.


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## rannmiller (Jun 27, 2008)

Can i hire your dog to come teach my dogs how to howl?


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## Ania's Mommy (Feb 8, 2009)

GermanSheperdlover said:


> I recently have gotten my young Shepherd to howl, funny as heck:biggrin:. I get him to howl while on my bed with me.


Dang, I can't get Ania to howl for nuthin'! My husband is trying to get her to bark on command (mostly so that we can just never use that particular command. LOL!).



GermanSheperdlover said:


> Oh, by the way I am watching a show (dirty jobs) on dog food. Pretty cool show about frozen food and stuffed hoves.


Ha ha! I was watching the same thing!!! That raw dog food was terrible looking, huh?!? Although there weren't many CARBS in it... (my attempt to get the thread back on track :wink

Richelle


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## GermanSheperdlover (Nov 15, 2009)

Didn't you like it when Mike was playing peak-a-boo with the intestines. How about when they were smelling the stuff, pretty funny in my book.:biggrin:


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## flkiwi (Feb 20, 2009)

I love my mate Mike, he seriously cracks me up. 
There was another program he did on rendering animals for dog food that made me sit up and take notice.
They went to farms and collected animals that had died of 'natural causes', took them to the plant, hung the so & so's up by the hooves and put em through the grinder, head first. They were then boiled down, maggots and all. Watching that (I've got it on DVR) got me looking into what exactly what goes into meal - but I gathered that this is what they call by-products. It didn't really concern me that there were hooves, heads, hair and stuff in it, it was the fact that the carcasses appeared to be putrid and rotting, and most importantly, what did they exactly die from in the first place?


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## SuZQuzie (Nov 26, 2009)

RawFedDogs said:


> Amalyse is not found in carnivores because it is used to digest plant matter. It is not found in cattle and horses because their digestive systems are entirely different. They have multiple stomachs to digest plant material. Digestion for them is a whole different process. I'm not sure pigs if pigs have it or not.


Horses are ruminants now? Oh, thanks for letting me know.










Oh, wait, no rumen. Huh.

Amylase is only found in primates, some rodents, and the obscure animal here and there. Please tell me about all these herbivores and omnivores with amylase. 



> Anytime I see the works "obligate carnivores", I know I'm talking to someone who is going to try to convince me that a dog is an omnivore which they aren't.


You've said that before. It's getting old.




> I have serious problems with it and woudln't feed it to my dogs for anything.


Then don't feed your dogs the vegetable matter. No one is forcing you to.






> Care to name some?


I will, but I have to go to class.


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## RawFedDogs (Jun 16, 2008)

SuZQuzie said:


> Horses are ruminants now? Oh, thanks for letting me know.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Wait! Don't get too far ahead of yourself. The cecum in a horse acts as a 2nd stomach and is used to hold food while bacteria and enzymes digest the cellulose. That is the same thing that ruminants have in one of their multiple stomachs. Amalyse is used by other animals to digest cellulose. If herbavores have a developed cecum they don't have a need for amalyse but if they don't they do. Amalyse is used to digest cellulose. Dogs don't have it. Herbivores with single stomachs DO have it in their GI system.



> Amylase is only found in primates, some rodents, and the obscure animal here and there. Please tell me about all these herbivores and omnivores with amylase.


Just did. :smile: 



> You've said that before. It's getting old.


The point needs to be made often as it seems to go over some people's heads.



> Then don't feed your dogs the vegetable matter. No one is forcing you to.


I wouldn't mind feeding them vegetable matter if they had the least bit of need for it or it benefited them in any way. It doesn't so I don't.



> I will, but I have to go to class.


I'll be waiting. I'll remind you in a few days in case you forget. :smile:


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## Jordan S. (Feb 2, 2010)

GermanSheperdlover said:


> This post isn't to start a bunch of crap. It just seems to me when times got lean for wild dogs they might dig for roots or berries or? The reason I kinda think they did is because I had a GSD once that used to pull raspberries off the bush and eat them. I have also heard of dogs eating strawberries, blackberries and other things on their own. Just why do dogs dig and just dig to dig. I have some other thoughts about wild dogs eating other things to survive. Just wondering about your thoughts on this.


They have no teeth in their mouth build for eating plant matter. They may be more flexible than cats but they are still carnivores.


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## spookychick13 (Jan 26, 2010)

Dogs are obligate carnivores.
Obligate or true carnivores depend solely on the nutrients found in animal flesh for their survival. While they may consume small amounts of plant material, they lack the physiology required for the efficient digestion of vegetable matter and, in fact, some carnivorous mammals eat vegetation specifically as an emetic. The domestic cat is a prime example of an obligate carnivore, as are all of the other felids. The ability to produce synthetic forms of nutrients such as taurine in the lab has allowed feed manufacturers to formulate foods for carnivores (zoo animals and pets) with varying amounts of plant material.

What does this mean in laymans terms?
Dogs are meat eaters, and it doesn't have to be live meat. This is a nice way of saying, dogs are scavangers that thrive on meat, but can eat other things in a temporary pinch. They aren't picky when hungry, but do much better on whole raw meat.

Dogs (and cats) ingest plant matter when they want to vomit!


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