# Going to kibble from RAW



## chelseypoo (Nov 2, 2012)

Hey everyone, Chelsey and I are having a bit of a problem. I transitioned her (not really transistioned her but basically switched her from a PMR diet to kibble three days ago. Her last meal of raw was Monday night & Tuesday she got her first meal of kibble. She is 7 years old and has only been on raw for about 6 months. At the moment it is just too much work for me, and money is tight (I hope to one day go back on raw when my financial situation allows me). Yesterday she started having "soft serve" poos with *some* diahreea..a bit of mix -- sorry that's gross! I expected there to be some upset, but she pooed 3 times like this yeterday and again this morning. Is there anything i *should be* doing during this transition? Or anything I can do to help it?? I didn't expect this much upset, since raw is already rich, and i'm downgrading her. (now feeding a grain free high quality kibble Orijen). Should I maybe do cooked rice or oatmeal with cooked beef for now, and then slowly put her back on kibble? I was going to do that but it just didn't make sence to me since i figured that would cause more upset with her previously being on raw and not getting any grain.


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## naturalfeddogs (Jan 6, 2011)

I really can't give any transition advice, but my first thought is that it could be because you are going from something species appropriate to something not so much. I'm sure someone here will be able to help.


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## meggels (May 30, 2010)

I would maybe fast her for 12-24 hours to give her stomach a break and to try to start as "clean" as possible...or with a clean slate I guess. 

I would then introduce smaller amounts of the kibble, not her suggested feeding amount. Trying to ease her into it a bit. 

Orijen might also just be too rich. I've heard of many dogs just having loose stool on it.


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## chelseypoo (Nov 2, 2012)

meggels said:


> I would maybe fast her for 12-24 hours to give her stomach a break and to try to start as "clean" as possible...or with a clean slate I guess.
> 
> I would then introduce smaller amounts of the kibble, not her suggested feeding amount. Trying to ease her into it a bit.
> 
> Orijen might also just be too rich. I've heard of many dogs just having loose stool on it.


She ate this morning, so I may just fast her until tomorrow morning. Poor pup - I feel horrible not feeding her but if it will help her i'm all for it. Do you think i should go the route of feeding a bland diet of cooked oats or rice with cooked fat drained ground beef and then slowly try to put her on the kibble? She was on Orijen prior to going raw and did great on it. I think its just the transition process thats being so rough on her :/


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## meggels (May 30, 2010)

I would skip the rice/chicken/beef if you can. Maybe just give her system a rest for 12 hours and then give her a little bit of kibble


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## DaViking (Sep 27, 2011)

chelseypoo said:


> Hey everyone, Chelsey and I are having a bit of a problem. I transitioned her (not really transistioned her but basically switched her from a PMR diet to kibble three days ago. Her last meal of raw was Monday night & Tuesday she got her first meal of kibble. She is 7 years old and has only been on raw for about 6 months. At the moment it is just too much work for me, and money is tight (I hope to one day go back on raw when my financial situation allows me). Yesterday she started having "soft serve" poos with *some* diahreea..a bit of mix -- sorry that's gross! I expected there to be some upset, but she pooed 3 times like this yeterday and again this morning. Is there anything i *should be* doing during this transition? Or anything I can do to help it?? I didn't expect this much upset, since raw is already rich, and i'm downgrading her. (now feeding a grain free high quality kibble Orijen). Should I maybe do cooked rice or oatmeal with cooked beef for now, and then slowly put her back on kibble? I was going to do that but it just didn't make sence to me since i figured that would cause more upset with her previously being on raw and not getting any grain.


Hi and welcome :smile:

An overnight switch will cause digestive upsets. You should do the transition gradually over 10 to 14 days. I do not recommend going to a complex formula like Orijen as the first food after raw. Unless you did an advanced BARF diet or similar in the past there are too many functional ingredients in Orijen your dog have never seen. I would pick up a classic easy to digest chicken and rice formula and use that as the transition food. When fully transitioned you can look for other alternatives if you like, you don't have to stay on the chicken and rice diet. The classic Chicken, Rice and Oatmeal formula from Precise is a proven super easy formula to digest. It's one of the very few foods you can introduce to most any dog and they will do fine. Is it the best food in the world? No it is not, but in your case it would fit perfectly in a transition period. Start with 1/4 of the food being kibble for a cpl of days and increase from there.
You could also add a probiotic supplement. Just beware that tests have shown many of the various products out there to be nothing like what is promised in their marketing.


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## DaViking (Sep 27, 2011)

naturalfeddogs said:


> I really can't give any transition advice, but my first thought is that it could be because you are going from something species appropriate to something not so much. I'm sure someone here will be able to help.


:shakinghead: Stop it with the constant jabs. If you have nothing positive to contribute in the kibble section just say nothing at all. The OP did not ask for your personal opinion on what is appropriate and what is not. $0.02


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## chelseypoo (Nov 2, 2012)

DaViking said:


> Hi and welcome :smile:
> 
> An overnight switch will cause digestive upsets. You should do the transition gradually over 10 to 14 days. I do not recommend going to a complex formula like Orijen as the first food after raw. Unless you did an advanced BARF diet or similar in the past there are too many functional ingredients in Orijen your dog have never seen. I would pick up a classic easy to digest chicken and rice formula and use that as the transition food. When fully transitioned you can look for other alternatives if you like, you don't have to stay on the chicken and rice diet. The classic Chicken, Rice and Oatmeal formula from Precise is a proven super easy formula to digest. It's one of the very few foods you can introduce to most any dog and they will do fine. Is it the best food in the world? No it is not, but in your case it would fit perfectly in a transition period. Start with 1/4 of the food being kibble for a cpl of days and increase from there.
> You could also add a probiotic supplement. Just beware that tests have shown many of the various products out there to be nothing like what is promised in their marketing.


Thank you for the exremely informative post! I do not have anymore of the raw I was feeding him. I *could* go to my local butcher and get some for the transition period, but would prefer not to and just go the blander kibble diet of chicken and brown rice formula. I have heard of Precise before, but locally, I cannot find it anywhere. Any other suggestions of a blander chicken and rice formula that I can find at a local pet store such as petco? I was thinking maybe one of the blue buffalo forumlas or natural balance (although i've heard some not so good things about natural balance, so i'm thinking the blue buffalo chicken and brown rice formula). I would really love to try the Precise, but its nowhere to be found around me, so if you know of any other really easy transition forumlas by a different brand, that would be great! 

I acutally have been adding a tiny bit of a prebiotic...but prebiotics have shown to cause Chelsey problems in the past, with acutally giving her looser poos, which is werid.


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## chelseypoo (Nov 2, 2012)

DaViking said:


> Hi and welcome :smile:
> 
> An overnight switch will cause digestive upsets. You should do the transition gradually over 10 to 14 days. I do not recommend going to a complex formula like Orijen as the first food after raw. Unless you did an advanced BARF diet or similar in the past there are too many functional ingredients in Orijen your dog have never seen. I would pick up a classic easy to digest chicken and rice formula and use that as the transition food. When fully transitioned you can look for other alternatives if you like, you don't have to stay on the chicken and rice diet. The classic Chicken, Rice and Oatmeal formula from Precise is a proven super easy formula to digest. It's one of the very few foods you can introduce to most any dog and they will do fine. Is it the best food in the world? No it is not, but in your case it would fit perfectly in a transition period. Start with 1/4 of the food being kibble for a cpl of days and increase from there.
> You could also add a probiotic supplement. Just beware that tests have shown many of the various products out there to be nothing like what is promised in their marketing.


My other reply didn't show up? Long story short, I can't find Precise anywhere near me. What are some other brands you know of that most dogs do well on for transitioning purposes? (looking to buy from a near by store for now -- petco. I was thinking of Blue Buffalo's chicken and brown rice forumla for now.

I've also tried probiotics with Chelsey before in the past, and they have always caused her to have looser poos, which is werid. So I try to stay away from Probiotics.


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## DaViking (Sep 27, 2011)

chelseypoo said:


> Thank you for the exremely informative post! I do not have anymore of the raw I was feeding him. I *could* go to my local butcher and get some for the transition period, but would prefer not to and just go the blander kibble diet of chicken and brown rice formula. I have heard of Precise before, but locally, I cannot find it anywhere. Any other suggestions of a blander chicken and rice formula that I can find at a local pet store such as petco? I was thinking maybe one of the blue buffalo forumlas or natural balance (although i've heard some not so good things about natural balance, so i'm thinking the blue buffalo chicken and brown rice formula). I would really love to try the Precise, but its nowhere to be found around me, so if you know of any other really easy transition forumlas by a different brand, that would be great!
> 
> I acutally have been adding a tiny bit of a prebiotic...but prebiotics have shown to cause Chelsey problems in the past, with acutally giving her looser poos, which is werid.


You could try Natures's Recipe Easy To Digest Chicken & Rice from Petco for the transition period. It's a very uncomplicated straight forward food. He will still have some upsets for a little while though because of the quick switch but this and similar foods should be easier on his digestive system than Orijen and similar.

Buying probiotic supplements can be a hit or a miss as far as ingredients are concerned. Not all products deliver. Look at table 1.


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## chelseypoo (Nov 2, 2012)

DaViking said:


> You could try Natures's Recipe Easy To Digest Chicken & Rice from Petco for the transition period. It's a very uncomplicated straight forward food. He will still have some upsets for a little while though because of the quick switch but this and similar foods should be easier on his digestive system than Orijen and similar.
> 
> Buying probiotic supplements can be a hit or a miss as far as ingredients are concerned. Not all products deliver. Look at table 1.



Thanks  I'll give that a try.. if they don't have that specific forumla or brand, I'll take a look at other foods and see which have the closest ingrediants. 

As far as probiotics, I was giving him Fresh Digest by Inclover. But yeah, he did worse on them then without them!


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## 1605 (May 27, 2009)

chelseypoo said:


> My other reply didn't show up? Long story short, I can't find Precise anywhere near me. What are some other brands you know of that most dogs do well on for transitioning purposes? (looking to buy from a near by store for now -- petco. I was thinking of Blue Buffalo's chicken and brown rice forumla for now.
> 
> I've also tried probiotics with Chelsey before in the past, and they have always caused her to have looser poos, which is werid. So I try to stay away from Probiotics.


I agree that perhaps you transitioned her a little too quickly. That being said, when you feed a dog a "better" kibble like Orijen or EVO, dogs tend to need LESS of this food because it is very calorie dense. So in addition to the "transitional upset" you may also be looking at simply feeding too much of the more concentrated food. Both scenarios usually end up with larger & softer "output", especially if the dog tends not to be super active like my GSPs.

If the dog was on Orijen before, you should be able to eventually get her back on it. You just need to do it more slowly. So you may want to mix some of the kibble with homemade (chicken & rice) and gradually increase the amount of dry until she has fully transitioned.

FWIW,


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## SaharaNight Boxers (Jun 28, 2011)

For a simple chicken and rice kibble available lately Duke was on Blue Buffalo Large Breed Chicken and Rice until we switched. He actually did quite well on it minus constant yeast ear infections. I don't know if that would be a problem with your dog or not.


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## chelseypoo (Nov 2, 2012)

SubMariner said:


> I agree that perhaps you transitioned her a little too quickly. That being said, when you feed a dog a "better" kibble like Orijen or EVO, dogs tend to need LESS of this food because it is very calorie dense. So in addition to the "transitional upset" you may also be looking at simply feeding too much of the more concentrated food. Both scenarios usually end up with larger & softer "output", especially if the dog tends not to be super active like my GSPs.
> 
> If the dog was on Orijen before, you should be able to eventually get her back on it. You just need to do it more slowly. So you may want to mix some of the kibble with homemade (chicken & rice) and gradually increase the amount of dry until she has fully transitioned.
> 
> FWIW,


Def not feeding too much to her - she weighs 9 pounds and is getting 1/2 c per day. I may just end up adding some cooking brown rice & beef and put her soley on that for 2-3 days and then start to slowly add in the kibble


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## chelseypoo (Nov 2, 2012)

SaharaNight Boxers said:


> For a simple chicken and rice kibble available lately Duke was on Blue Buffalo Large Breed Chicken and Rice until we switched. He actually did quite well on it minus constant yeast ear infections. I don't know if that would be a problem with your dog or not.


I was looking at the Blue Buffalo as an option  only it would have to be the regular or small breed


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## BearMurphy (Feb 29, 2012)

I would think that adding kibble to her diet when she hasn't had it for 6 months is going to cause digestive upset no matter what you do so don't feel bad.

i would have gone the rice/ground beef route until things are settled and then slowly intro the kibble because I don't believe in mixing raw with kibble but since you have already begun I would just stick with feeding a reduced amount of kibble everyday and up it when things settle.

There are people on here who feed both raw and kibble successfully though so hopefully they add to this post because they may have advice rooted in their personal experience.

not trying to get you to switch back but how is it expensive to feed a 9 lb dog raw? how much cheaper is kibble? if you had less vet visits on raw it might be worth a little more money spent on food. just a thought....i hope you don't take offense to me asking this


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## kevin bradley (Aug 9, 2009)

man, I feed kibble and rarely if ever have to go to the Vet(outside of yearly checkup)

I must be lucky


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## DaViking (Sep 27, 2011)

BearMurphy said:


> if you had less vet visits on raw it might be worth a little more money spent on food. just a thought...


Nothing anywhere to support this. Not anecdotal, not in science.


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## chelseypoo (Nov 2, 2012)

BearMurphy said:


> I would think that adding kibble to her diet when she hasn't had it for 6 months is going to cause digestive upset no matter what you do so don't feel bad.
> 
> i would have gone the rice/ground beef route until things are settled and then slowly intro the kibble because I don't believe in mixing raw with kibble but since you have already begun I would just stick with feeding a reduced amount of kibble everyday and up it when things settle.
> 
> ...


Theres probably not that much of a huge difference between cost on me feeding raw or kibble. But in the end, kibble is easier me to obtain and does turn out to be somewhat cheaper. I also don't have complete faith in myself feeding a balanced raw diet (although she was getting a HUGE variety -- in the end i honestly wasnt too comfortable with it. Another big fator in my decision was the fact that Chelsey was doing great on kibble never once a vet bill outside of yearly exams in her life. Over the time she was on raw honestly I didnt notice any difference at all -- shes a healthy dog to begin with though with minimal problems. I only once had a $400 emergency vet bill while on raw because she was VERY lethargic, trying to vomit but couldn't and her stomach was VERY tight. I thought she had bloat..if not bloat something else serious because that never happened before. To this day they dont know what it was. Also, she has somewhat bad acid reflux while on raw as well.


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## Shamrockmommy (Sep 10, 2009)

If this were my dog I would fast her for one meal and then the next meal I would give one third to one half of the usual amount and then add a digestive enzyme. If things look better, slowly increase each meal and keep up with the digestive enzymes for a week or so to make sure all looks good. 

And also there is no evidence (in my experience) that raw or homecooked or good quality kibble causes fewer vet bills. Remember these are dogs, who lived off our garbage basically. Although I am one to talk lol I'm always worrying and fidgeting with the girls' food.


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## Sheltielover25 (Jan 18, 2011)

DaViking said:


> Nothing anywhere to support this. Not anecdotal, not in science.


It's common sense. Feeding something a species-appropriate diet leads to less health problems...it's a no-brainer. What happens to humans who eat processed food day in and day out when they switch over to a diet of WHOLE foods/nothing processed? The majority of their health problems go away. You can't argue a diet of processed foods will lead to health issues; think of the teeth for example. Everything works better when the body is nourished correctly and that doesn't happen when fed a processed diet...their bodies work a lot harder to digest unnecessary, inappropriate foods. I mean sugar? carbs? day in and day out? Uh yeah that's going to cause some health problems... we're not designed to derive nutrients from some concoction made in a lab.


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## DaViking (Sep 27, 2011)

Sheltielover25 said:


> It's common sense. Feeding something a species-appropriate diet leads to less health problems...it's a no-brainer. What happens to humans who eat processed food day in and day out when they switch over to a diet of WHOLE foods/nothing processed? The majority of their health problems go away. You can't argue a diet of processed foods will lead to health issues; think of the teeth for example. Everything works better when the body is nourished correctly and that doesn't happen when fed a processed diet...their bodies work a lot harder to digest unnecessary, inappropriate foods. I mean sugar? carbs? day in and day out? Uh yeah that's going to cause some health problems... we're not designed to derive nutrients from some concoction made in a lab.


Let me know the day the world agree on the term common sense. The healthiest ppl with the longest life expectancy in the world, Scandinavia and certain parts of Asia, still relies on processed foods. Where I am from we boil our cod on a higher temperature than many pet foods are subject to. It's still a great meal. Nowhere is raw food a mainstay and nowhere is it needed for us to thrive. A good balance between raw ingredients from mostly plants, moderately processed foods and highly processed bad but yummy foods that make me smile is stellar. Actually we as humans thrive so much we are displacing everything and everyone around us. I'll end it there since it's off topic. Feel free to start a thread somewhere else.


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## BearMurphy (Feb 29, 2012)

Hey guys I wasn't trying to start an argument...just pointing out that a food choice can cost more than just the food so there other things to take into account. This can be the case with one kibble vs another too if your dog doesn't do well on an ingredient that's in one brand. 

And I think its valid to consider her own personal experience with her dog when making a decision a decision about her dog so I'm not sure why some people were bothered by me asking her to consider her other costs (like vet bills)

OP I'm happy that your dog does well on kibble or raw. That gives you more options so feed what you are comfortable with. That's what I do


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## LilasMom (Mar 10, 2012)

chelseypoo said:


> Theres probably not that much of a huge difference between cost on me feeding raw or kibble. But in the end, kibble is easier me to obtain and does turn out to be somewhat cheaper. I also don't have complete faith in myself feeding a balanced raw diet (although she was getting a HUGE variety -- in the end i honestly wasnt too comfortable with it. Another big fator in my decision was the fact that Chelsey was doing great on kibble never once a vet bill outside of yearly exams in her life. *Over the time she was on raw honestly I didnt notice any difference at all *-- shes a healthy dog to begin with though with minimal problems. I only once had a $400 emergency vet bill while on raw because she was VERY lethargic, trying to vomit but couldn't and her stomach was VERY tight. I thought she had bloat..if not bloat something else serious because that never happened before. To this day they dont know what it was. Also, she has somewhat bad acid reflux while on raw as well.


She wasn't on raw very long at all though. My dogs have been on raw for almost a year and I keep seeing improvements in them. Not being able to handle raw right now is one thing, but don't let the fact that there wasn't a noticeable difference put you off raw. Some dogs take more than six months to transition, so she still could have been working it out. Six months is just not very long. I do hope you find a kibble that works, have you ever tried Fromm?


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## chelseypoo (Nov 2, 2012)

Chelsey is now doing having great poos  I think it may have been her monthly heartworm pill that may have contributed to the loose poos. I have noticed that everytime I give her her heartworm preventative, she does have looser stools for a couple days after.


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## chelseypoo (Nov 2, 2012)

LilasMom said:


> She wasn't on raw very long at all though. My dogs have been on raw for almost a year and I keep seeing improvements in them. Not being able to handle raw right now is one thing, but don't let the fact that there wasn't a noticeable difference put you off raw. Some dogs take more than six months to transition, so she still could have been working it out. Six months is just not very long. I do hope you find a kibble that works, have you ever tried Fromm?


For me, i noticed increased acid reflux with her on raw. Are dogs carnivores? Yes. Is raw the ideal diet for dogs? I believe yes, but not for every dog. I overall feel more comfortable feeding a high quality kibble mixed with can for my dogs diet.


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## mheath0429 (Sep 8, 2012)

Shamrockmommy said:


> If this were my dog I would fast her for one meal and then the next meal I would give one third to one half of the usual amount and then add a digestive enzyme. If things look better, slowly increase each meal and keep up with the digestive enzymes for a week or so to make sure all looks good.
> 
> And also there is no evidence (in my experience) that raw or homecooked or good quality kibble causes fewer vet bills. Remember these are dogs, who lived off our garbage basically. Although I am one to talk lol I'm always worrying and fidgeting with the girls' food.


If you need proof you can take a look at my bank account - on kibble 3 visits for UTI, 2 URI, 1 Anaphylaxis and 2 Fecal issues - on Raw, none. Nothing. Nada. Mind you i fed VARIOUS kibbles. All good quality.


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## mheath0429 (Sep 8, 2012)

chelseypoo said:


> For me, i noticed increased acid reflux with her on raw. Are dogs carnivores? Yes. Is raw the ideal diet for dogs? I believe yes, but not for every dog. I overall feel more comfortable feeding a high quality kibble mixed with can for my dogs diet.


May I ask what you mean by acid reflux? Not discrediting you, just haven't seen it in dogs. 

Also could have been from enhancements, if you were feeding store bought meat.


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## Roo (Oct 17, 2010)

> Thank you for the exremely informative post! I do not have anymore of the raw I was feeding him.





> As far as probiotics, I was giving him Fresh Digest by Inclover. But yeah, he did worse on them then without them!


I'm confused do you have two dogs? You said Chelsey and refer to a female dog in some of your posts, but in the two of your posts, you refer to a male dog.


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## DaViking (Sep 27, 2011)

mheath0429 said:


> May I ask what you mean by acid reflux? Not discrediting you, just haven't seen it in dogs.
> 
> Also could have been from enhancements, if you were feeding store bought meat.


Gastroesophageal Reflux is not uncommon in dogs. The more meat and organs a dog eat the more acid is produced. As opposed to carbohydrates like rice and corn. Dogs digest carbs without the production of acid. That's why a rice based diet is often recommended in an initial phase while figuring out what GI issues are happening.


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## chowder (Sep 7, 2008)

chelseypoo said:


> Chelsey is now doing having great poos  I think it may have been her monthly heartworm pill that may have contributed to the loose poos. I have noticed that everytime I give her her heartworm preventative, she does have looser stools for a couple days after.


You might have to find a new type of heartworm preventative for her. Rocky reacts badly to iverhart or heartgard and has to be kept on interceptor. Some dogs can react even to just the difference between Iverhart and Heartgard even though the main ingredient is the same in those. It would be worth it to keep her stomach happy.


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## wolfsnaps88 (Jan 2, 2012)

You know, I can see why the kibble feeders get upset with some of the raw feeders on this forum.

I consider myself unbiased. I feed raw and whole heartedly think it is the better diet. But some of you guys...wow. So raw wasn't working in chelseypoo's situation....for whatever reason. She came here looking for help with what she can do (which is kibble right now) and some of you actually are bashing her? Come on! 

Chelseypoo, I agree with fasting and starting slow on kibble like some others (who actually try to help) have said. Bland, like chicken and rice for now. 

Let me remind you that this forum is called DOG FOOD CHAT, not RAW IS THE ONLY RIGHT WAY TO DO THINGS CHAT.


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## Savage Destiny (Mar 16, 2011)

wolfsnaps88 said:


> You know, I can see why the kibble feeders get upset with some of the raw feeders on this forum.
> 
> I consider myself unbiased. I feed raw and whole heartedly think it is the better diet. But some of you guys...wow. So raw wasn't working in chelseypoo's situation....for whatever reason. She came here looking for help with what she can do (which is kibble right now) and some of you actually are bashing her? Come on!
> 
> ...


This is exactly what I was thinking! I knew the minute I saw this thread it was going to be a bunch of the raw feeders slamming criticisms and preaching the evils of kibble. 

I feed raw. I've been feeding raw for longer than a lot of raw feeders on this forum. And yet I don't feel the need to criticize someone for not choosing to feed raw, tell them they're making a poor choice, or try to make them feel like a bad dog owner for feeding kibble. Seriously, sometimes I wish we could ban the raw feeders from the kibble section... nobody deserves to be made to feel bad because they feed a high quality kibble. Jesus.


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## LilasMom (Mar 10, 2012)

I don't think I slammed anyone, so please don't put all the raw feeders into one group. Whether you feed kibble or raw, I think most people are just doing the best they can.


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## DaViking (Sep 27, 2011)

LilasMom said:


> I don't think I slammed anyone, so please don't put all the raw feeders into one group. Whether you feed kibble or raw, I think most people are just doing the best they can.


If it's not the judgmental attitude it's the constant preaching and injecting of raw two cents here from some, not all, that is really annoying and really unnecessary. If the same number of ppl would return the favor and inject all kinds of views on why commercial foods didn't work for ppl now seeking advice on raw feeding in the raw section this place would be empty of members in a heartbeat. Can't be that hard to understand can it?


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## Savage Destiny (Mar 16, 2011)

LilasMom said:


> I don't think I slammed anyone, so please don't put all the raw feeders into one group. Whether you feed kibble or raw, I think most people are just doing the best they can.


Perhaps not, but you still went the healthy dose of guilt route with "Oh, she didn't eat raw very long, it's too soon to notice a difference, you should really keep trying even though you've listed a bunch of reasons you don't want to..."


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## mheath0429 (Sep 8, 2012)

Everyone is entitled to feed what they like - my issue is with people making anecdotal statements about raw. 

Yeah, sometimes, for whatever reason raw isn't right for that person at the right time. I would never bash Orijen or Acana. If I wasn't feed raw, I would feed one of them. Not to mention, there have been MANY times that the kibble feeders have imposed on people looking to feed raw. It's a vicious system.


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## BeagleCountry (Jan 20, 2012)

GERD (acid reflux) is the result of a weakened sphincter muscle between the stomach and esophagus that allows the stomach contents to enter the esophagus, throat and sometimes run out the side of the mouth. Acid reflux is painful. If severe enough and allowed to continue for an extended period of time the lining of the esophagus will be replaced with stomach tissue. The commercials for Pepcid (famotidine) and Prilosec (omeprazole) are somewhat misleading. Both are proton pump inhibitors (PPI). Pepcid shuts down one of the acid producing proton pumps. Prolosec shuts down five of the pumps. Neither correct the problem. Fundoplication surgery will tighten the sphincter muscle. I do not know of any human or dog who has had the surgery.

Although I have had several dogs through the years and have had quite a few rescues staying with me I have had only one dog with GERD. The vet solution is a PPI which can cause problems of their own. I have found food management to be the best solution. Basically, small amounts of food several times per day with the flexibility to adjust the amount of fat as needed. Fat can worsen reflux. Smaller meals lessen the pressure on the weakened sphincter muscle.

If on the fence with making the decision as to an appropriate kibble I suggest a smaller kibble. Serve it moistened 3 or 4 times per day. Unless using several brands of kibble I am unsure how adjustments can be made on days when the acid reflux is worse and less fat for a few meals will get it back under control.

My girl does best with raw. She is fed 3 times per day. Cutting the meat into smaller pieces works well. When acid reflux raises its ugly head I feed a few low fat meals or a mix of low fat with another meat. 

Avoid antibiotics as they can kill the natural digestive flora.


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## Roo (Oct 17, 2010)

I hate to see the knowledgeable and helpful members (both kibble and raw feeders) on this forum argue over a thread that may not be what it seems. 

Just so everyone is aware, the OP has more than one account on this forum (been confirmed) and has told a very similar story on other dog forums, except on the other forums the dog is an 8lb, 5 yr old, male, named Rio, instead of a 9lb, 7 yr old female, named Chelsey. According to other posts made under a different user name, the dog had acid reflux issues on kibble before even trying raw, and also had acid reflux on raw too. The dog was on pre-made raw (NV and Primal) at first, then switched back to kibble (Fromm) for a short time, then tried commercial PMR (My pet carnivore), and somewhere Orijen was fed as well. The pre-made NV raw was supposedly started around mid July 2012 and a vet ER visit for a tight stomach, acting lethargic, that the OP thought might be bloat is mentioned as happening 3 months earlier, before even trying raw, the vet's diagnosis was suggested to be acid reflux. All the pre-made/MPC raw could explain the extra expense the OP was referring to with feeding raw, and all the switching back and forth between different diets might possibly explain the continued acid reflux/GI issues. 

When the OP has been unclear with the information given, I don't think it's fair to anyone trying to offer helpful advice. Chelseypoo, if you could help clear up the confusion with your posts, that would be great.


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## LilasMom (Mar 10, 2012)

Savage Destiny said:


> Perhaps not, but you still went the healthy dose of guilt route with "Oh, she didn't eat raw very long, it's too soon to notice a difference, you should really keep trying even though you've listed a bunch of reasons you don't want to..."


That is NOT what I said. I didn't even say she should keep trying, I just said don't let that fact that there was no difference put you off raw. It is okay to not be able to do raw, but six months is too short to see the whole difference. Even when humans changer their lifestyle it can take a long time to notice a difference. Again, I never said you should really keep trying. I said "She wasn't on raw very long at all though. My dogs have been on raw for almost a year and I keep seeing improvements in them. Not being able to handle raw right now is one thing, but don't let the fact that there wasn't a noticeable difference put you off raw. Some dogs take more than six months to transition, so she still could have been working it out. Six months is just not very long. I do hope you find a kibble that works, have you ever tried Fromm?"

I even recommended a kibble. Please don't put all raw feeders into the same group. I am a huge fan of raw, but if the person can't do it then they can't. I didn't bash anyone or try to guilt anyone. I also don't think I was judgmental or preachy. I do not agree with people bashing kibble, but please don't act like it is just the raw feeders. 

Savage Destiny, next time you "quote" me, make sure it is something I actually said or would say. "Healthy dose of guilt"? Are you serious? I recommended a kibble, why would I recommend a kibble if I was trying to make her feel guilty? Feeding pets can be a sensitive area for some people, I would NEVER guilt-trip anyone. Both kibble and raw have pros and cons, and right now for the OP kibble has more pros. 

OP, if anything I said make you feel guilty or like a was judging you, I truly apologize. It was never my intention. I do hope you find luck with food, my mom's dogs had luck with many of Fromm's formulas, their grain-inclusive varieties are pretty well-accepted as well.


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## chelseypoo (Nov 2, 2012)

mheath0429 said:


> If you need proof you can take a look at my bank account - on kibble 3 visits for UTI, 2 URI, 1 Anaphylaxis and 2 Fecal issues - on Raw, none. Nothing. Nada. Mind you i fed VARIOUS kibbles. All good quality.


I've fed chelsey kibble her whole life - minus the 6 mo raw period. I've never had those issues. If raw is better for you dog, great


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## chelseypoo (Nov 2, 2012)

mheath0429 said:


> May I ask what you mean by acid reflux? Not discrediting you, just haven't seen it in dogs.
> 
> Also could have been from enhancements, if you were feeding store bought meat.


Acid reflux...her food coming up quite a bit...hours after eatting..not vomiting, but regurgitating. On kibble she does this very rarely..maybe once a week if that. On raw it was happening 4 to 5 times a week. She was not eatting enhanced meats.


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## chelseypoo (Nov 2, 2012)

BeagleCountry said:


> GERD (acid reflux) is the result of a weakened sphincter muscle between the stomach and esophagus that allows the stomach contents to enter the esophagus, throat and sometimes run out the side of the mouth. Acid reflux is painful. If severe enough and allowed to continue for an extended period of time the lining of the esophagus will be replaced with stomach tissue. The commercials for Pepcid (famotidine) and Prilosec (omeprazole) are somewhat misleading. Both are proton pump inhibitors (PPI). Pepcid shuts down one of the acid producing proton pumps. Prolosec shuts down five of the pumps. Neither correct the problem. Fundoplication surgery will tighten the sphincter muscle. I do not know of any human or dog who has had the surgery.
> 
> Although I have had several dogs through the years and have had quite a few rescues staying with me I have had only one dog with GERD. The vet solution is a PPI which can cause problems of their own. I have found food management to be the best solution. Basically, small amounts of food several times per day with the flexibility to adjust the amount of fat as needed. Fat can worsen reflux. Smaller meals lessen the pressure on the weakened sphincter muscle.
> 
> ...


Yes, I tried smaller meals, 3 to even sometimes 4 times a day. Her reflux just acted upi way too much for my liking ( or hers). She wasn't comfortable..blurping all the time and food coming up hours after eatting. I tried lower fat meats most of the time, and that helped at bit.


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## sozzle (May 18, 2011)

Roo said:


> I hate to see the knowledgeable and helpful members (both kibble and raw feeders) on this forum argue over a thread that may not be what it seems.
> 
> Just so everyone is aware, the OP has more than one account on this forum (been confirmed) and has told a very similar story on other dog forums, except on the other forums the dog is an 8lb, 5 yr old, male, named Rio, instead of a 9lb, 7 yr old female, named Chelsey. According to other posts made under a different user name, the dog had acid reflux issues on kibble before even trying raw, and also had acid reflux on raw too. The dog was on pre-made raw (NV and Primal) at first, then switched back to kibble (Fromm) for a short time, then tried commercial PMR (My pet carnivore), and somewhere Orijen was fed as well. The pre-made NV raw was supposedly started around mid July 2012 and a vet ER visit for a tight stomach, acting lethargic, that the OP thought might be bloat is mentioned as happening 3 months earlier, before even trying raw, the vet's diagnosis was suggested to be acid reflux. All the pre-made/MPC raw could explain the extra expense the OP was referring to with feeding raw, and all the switching back and forth between different diets might possibly explain the continued acid reflux/GI issues.
> 
> When the OP has been unclear with the information given, I don't think it's fair to anyone trying to offer helpful advice. Chelseypoo, if you could help clear up the confusion with your posts, that would be great.


Maybe treat this OP with caution chaps, otherwise we will all be arguing again and offending each other - it's happened many times before. Just saying......... from my distant location at the bottom of the world.
(Not Roo but chelsypoo)


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