# Do you know about health tests ?



## doggoblin (Jun 6, 2011)

In another forum I frequent I frequently read about health testing for dogs before breeding and why they are needed. Until recently, not being up on such things, it wasn't something I had thought about. The following you-tube video, to my mind shows why it is necessary (some may find it disturbing).

YouTube - ‪N.C.L. (Neuronal Ceroid Lipofuscinosis)‬‏

Did you know about health testing and what tests should be done for your breed of dog when buying?

Edit: Thought I'd also just post this as it may be useful. http://www.hsvma.org/pdf/fact_sheets/guide-to-congenital-and-heritable-disorders.pdf


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## danecolor (Nov 22, 2010)

in great danes, ideally i would like to see OFA/PennHIP scores, thyroid and cardio normal, and CERF eyes normal. elbow checks would also be nice but not necessary. health tests provide no guarantee, only a snapshot of the health of a dog or bitch at the moment they were screened. however, they are still the best tool available to help breeders strive to produce healthier offspring, so in my mind they are a necessity for an ethical breeding program.

ETA: for some diseases, where the gene for dysfunction has been identified, a dog can actually be tested for the presence or absence of the harmful allele. these genetic tests _do_ provide a guarantee as to whether the dog is a carrier or affected by a disease.


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## Scarlett_O' (May 19, 2011)

Yep, for my breed-Border Collies, all good breeders will have tested breeding stock's hips tested with OFA and be clear of hip dysplasia, as well as having it's eyes tested by Optigen for Collie Eye Anomaly (CEA.) Being clear of CEA means that that dog will never produce a pup with CEA. Also Canine Good Citizen is considered among a LOT of good BC breeders to be a MUST before breeding as well, to help keep the lines how they were meant to be!


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## CorgiPaws (Mar 31, 2009)

Health testing is a really big deal to me. To me, there's just no reason not to do it. I know a lot of breeders who stop after a certain point claiming that they just know their lines, and they're healthy... to me that's not acceptable because just because a dog came from health tested parents, doesn't guarantee for sure that they will have perfect hips, eyes, elbows, etc. 

For both of my breeds, Boxers and Great Danes, I like to see Pennhip, OFA Cardio, and OFA thyroid all checked out. Eyes and elbows are a bonus for me, but not a deal maker or breaker. 

The more I learn, the more I prefer Pennhip over OFA Hips, since it is so much more accurate and not someones opinion based on the x ray. It's actually mathematical and exact. I actually wonder why any breeder would still go OFA Hips over Pennhip, given the accuracy (or lack thereof) 

And honesty, testing really isn't all that expensive. For a 140lb male, I can have pennhip, ofa heart, and ofa thyroid done for less than $600... and sure, it varies by area, but really, that's such a small price to pay for the welfare of dogs.


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## DaneMama (Jun 27, 2008)

I had Zuri's hips radiographed today when she went under for her gastropexy and the preliminary look at them is good! I will do Pennhip on her when she gets a bit older. If they had looked totally terrible on prelim today, she would have been spayed. 


Health testing is the up most importance to me as well. If the dogs you breed aren't healthy....what good is that????


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## BrownieM (Aug 30, 2010)

Standard Poodles I like to see CERF (eyes), OFA/Pennhip hips, SA, Thyroid and genetic clearance for vWD and NE. Cardiac is a plus, but I do not see this done on the majority of dogs. I have been noticing that the top producing stud dogs tend to have cardiac done more than other dogs.

These websites can help you research the health tests recommended for any given breed:

Orthopedic Foundation for Animals

Canine Health Information Center: CHIC Breeds


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## BrownieM (Aug 30, 2010)

DaneMama said:


> I had Zuri's hips radiographed today when she went under for her gastropexy and the preliminary look at them is good! I will do Pennhip on her when she gets a bit older. If they had looked totally terrible on prelim today, she would have been spayed.
> 
> 
> Health testing is the up most importance to me as well. If the dogs you breed aren't healthy....what good is that????


I have to ask, because I don't remember, are you considering breeding her?

I personally would not ever have a gastropexy performed on a dog/bitch that would be bred as it prevents one from knowing if bloat lurks in their line. There is clearly a familial component to bloat, as evidenced by certain lines that are plagued, and by not breeding animals that bloat, a breeder can try to limit it's occurrence in their line. However, if a dog is pexied, a breeder may unknowingly breed and pass on a tendency for bloat. By not performing a gastropexy on a breeding dog/bitch, a responsible breeder would be able to spay/neuter that dog ASAP, as well as all of it's offspring and siblings


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## DaneMama (Jun 27, 2008)

She will be bred if all health tests come back with good results. And if she grows up to be the kind of Dane that I want to breed conformationally and temperamentally. 

GVD isn't genetically linked other than morphology. Unfortunately with Danes, nearly every single Dane out there is the perfect "shape" for this to happen. All the studies that I have seen and the seminars I've been to show no other genetic link. Many people think that its carried on by a certain gene or interaction between genes but that isn't the case. Its all based on a predisposed shape to the dog (deep, barrel chest) and more often than not, stress. 

Some Danes don't bloat until their are seniors. And quite frequently AFTER they have been bred because show Danes cannot be pexied. I think that is irresponsible. I have a Dane breeder friend who shows that lost his most treasured female to GVD last year, he was devastated. This happened after she was bred twice. 

There may be a genetic link with Spoos, but I don't know anything about them. I know with Danes, they have a 1 in 4 chance of bloating, and those dogs that do have a 1 in 10 chance of dying. 

We can disagree about this all day, I'm happy to agree to disagree.


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## BrownieM (Aug 30, 2010)

DaneMama said:


> She will be bred if all health tests come back with good results. And if she grows up to be the kind of Dane that I want to breed conformationally and temperamentally.
> 
> GVD isn't genetically linked other than morphology. Unfortunately with Danes, nearly every single Dane out there is the perfect "shape" for this to happen. All the studies that I have seen and the seminars I've been to show no other genetic link. Many people think that its carried on by a certain gene or interaction between genes but that isn't the case. Its all based on a predisposed shape to the dog (deep, barrel chest) and more often than not, stress.
> 
> ...


Where did I say anything about genetic?

It IS familial. Familial, structural traits that predispose a dog, or familial temperament (predisposed to stress) that predispose a dog, or any other number of familial, but not genetic, traits.

I think that if someone is going to get into breeding dogs, they have to take unfortunate risks in order to protect the future of the breed. Abstaining from from gastropexy in a dog that will be bred is definitely one of those unfortunate risks.

Just food for thought. I'm not saying there is any one right way to do things.


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## CorgiPaws (Mar 31, 2009)

BrownieM said:


> Where did I say anything about genetic?
> 
> It IS familial. Familial, structural traits that predispose a dog, or familial temperament (predisposed to stress) that predispose a dog, or any other number of familial, but not genetic, traits.
> 
> I think that if you are going to get into breeding dogs, you have to take unfortunate risks, like abstaining from gastropexy in a dog that will be bred, in order to protect the future of the breed.


The definite cause of bloat at this point in time is unknown. There are some who claim genetic. There are some who claim stress. There are a million suggestions that may or may not help prevent it, but fact of the matter is it is somewhat of a mystery. I had a lengthy discussion with my vet on this topic when I was in there two weeks ago, and based on the most recent research he believes that it it has to do with stress and anxiety, combined with structural traits that predispose a dog to bloat. That being said, we also discussed the occurrence of bloat in various breeds, and there are a handful of breeds, Danes being one of them, that pretty much EVERY one of them will be predisposed because of their size/shape/structure. I can see with a breed that is not at as high of risk of bloat being against pexy for breeding stock, but for breeds with such high risk.... well, I'm on the fence. 

I have gone back and forth on to pexy or not to pexy, because while the information I have at this current time, I see no problem in doing so. I *almost* scheduled a pexy with Mousse's appointment Monday, but didn't. Why? Because as much as many people would like to claim to know the true cause of bloat, no one can right now. I know of plenty good breeders that advocate for pexy and pexy their dogs. A breeder caring about the welfare of her dogs is not a bad thing in the slightest. I personally think that every single person owning a pet dane SHOULD have a pexy done... why risk it with chances that high. Again, for dogs intended for breeding, I am currently on the fence, but leaning towards doing it. Perhaps in a different breed I would agree wholeheartedly. But I don't.


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## BrownieM (Aug 30, 2010)

I CAN see the difficult decision with Danes, I'll admit. I am wavering while balancing the knowledge of the high risk of each and every dane with my feeling that it isn't ethical to breed a dog if it has been altered so it cannot bloat. Good thing I won't be breeding danes, LOL!


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## CorgiPaws (Mar 31, 2009)

BrownieM said:


> I CAN see the difficult decision with Danes, I'll admit. I am wavering while balancing the knowledge of the high risk of each and every dane with my feeling that it isn't ethical to breed a dog if it has been altered so it cannot bloat. Good thing I won't be breeding danes, LOL!


BM: In any other breed I can think of of the top of my head, I would be passionately agreeing with you. As mentioned: I'm personally torn, because generally my belief is right in line with yours. Letting go of that blanket standard and applying it logically to the information I have as of now, is tough... because what if tomorrow brings new information? It's a tough call. One that I'm not personally ready to make for my dogs, so it's a good thing I have time! lol
I'm glad that while it's no secret we disagree on quite a few ethics of breeding, we can still find common ground sometimes, and even debate with respect. :smile:


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## DaneMama (Jun 27, 2008)

I guess I just don't see the difference between "familial" and genetic....genes are passed down through genetics regardless of "bloodlines" or families. I see these terms as synonymous with one another. While temperament can be genetic, I personally believe that a lot that goes into a dog's overall temperament is how it is raised, trained, etc. So...I saw your initial post about GVD as it being genetic/familial which isn't the case.

Because EVERY Dane is at risk for GVD due to their conformation, its important IMO to have a pexy done, NOT irresponsible in the slightest to the inidividual dog OR the breed as a whole. 

Linsey- I thought you canceled Mouss's pexy because you didn't like the technique your vet was going to use on him? Not to mention he was going to charge you out the a$$ for it....


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## nykea (Jun 15, 2011)

I have a Russian Black Terrier. At the moment there are no tests required for them in UK, which is a shame. There are recommendations for hips and elbows screening and now HU. In relation to what was said before, if a breeder screens dogs for monogenic disease and all his dogs are clear, there is no need to screen every single one of them, assuming that the breeder is 100% sure that the parents are really who he/she thinks they are. With monogenic diseases it's quite nice, because you have just two alleles in each animal and it's fairly easy to trace them through a pedigree. Obviosuly, with diseases such HD the case is much more complicated, because the screening represents not only the genes of the animal but also its environment. And as was said, sometimes grades are very subjective....

As per the bloat in Great Danes, I agree with BrownieM. I love looking at Danes, they are incredibly beautiful and majestic animals, but their life span and diseases just scare me away (having said that I have a sick dog myself! :/ ). And I find it ethically disturbing that we keep on breeding dogs that can't live a normal life without a surgery... Of course do it to pet dogs, but maybe it would be worth to think about changes in the body composition of future Danes, so they don't need the surgeries? Even if it means that they would be 10cm shorter....


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## Javadoo (May 23, 2011)

I have 2 labs...I looked for a breeder that had done OFA on hips AND elbows (as labs are prone to elbow and hip dysplasia), CERF, Optigen rating and PRA clear as well as cardiologic testing on their heart on BOTH dam and sire. 
These are the tests I expect to be done before purchasing a pup. At minimum. I will not buy a pup from a breeder without these tests/clearances. 
As it is, I found a breeder that performed ALL clearances with good/great results, but my bigger lab girl Java still has ED, OCD and DJD, as well as tearing both ACLs. 
Clearances aren't a guarantee, but I feel better knowing they were all done. 
When it comes to genetics and Mother Nature, you can do all the testing in the world, but sh*t happens.


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## DaneMama (Jun 27, 2008)

nykea said:


> As per the bloat in Great Danes, I agree with BrownieM. I love looking at Danes, they are incredibly beautiful and majestic animals, but their life span and diseases just scare me away (having said that I have a sick dog myself! :/ ). And I find it ethically disturbing that we keep on breeding dogs that can't live a normal life without a surgery... Of course do it to pet dogs, but maybe it would be worth to think about changes in the body composition of future Danes, so they don't need the surgeries? Even if it means that they would be 10cm shorter....


Unfortunately not just Danes are at risk. Labs, dobermans, GSDs, GSPs, standard poodles, Irish wolfhounds, mastiffs in general, bloodhounds, even BRTs. Basically any dog that is larger, with deep chests. It is true that Danes bloat more than any other breed and i wish it could be bred out. But that would mean changing the entire conformation of the standard. I personally think that the bigger the Dane the more likely the chance that it'll bloat at some point in it's life, so as a prospective breeder I'm personally not going to select the largest dogs I can find for my breeding program like most Dane breeders. In general dogs bred to the extreme of any physical trait aren't healthy (ie Pomeranians that are bred so small their legs break from jumping off a couch). 

I guess I'm just not willing to risk putting my personal Danes through the trauma of experiencing GVD at any cost. And I'm a Dane girl through and through! 

Cats can even get GVD, even humans and horses...it's just something that happens.


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## danecolor (Nov 22, 2010)

correct me if i am wrong, but i was under the impression that gastropexy does not prevent bloat from occurring, rather it it prevents the torsion, which is the fatal component of GDV. i thought that bloat would still potentially occur and be able to be identified, just not be fatal with a pexy.


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## nykea (Jun 15, 2011)

DaneMama said:


> Unfortunately not just Danes are at risk. Labs, dobermans, GSDs, GSPs, standard poodles, Irish wolfhounds, mastiffs in general, bloodhounds, even BRTs. Basically any dog that is larger, with deep chests. It is true that Danes bloat more than any other breed and i wish it could be bred out. But that would mean changing the entire conformation of the standard.


And perhaps that's what we should do in all giant breeds. I love big furry monsters that are sometimes shown as "true Russian Black Terriers" but then I think that they couldn't run with me as my dog does, that I'd have to be extra careful for their feeding patterns, joints etc... I think that although giant dogs look amazing, we should really balance the esthethics with ethics. And I applaud your plans of choosing healthy rather than large studs in the future. I hope I will be able to do the same 



DaneMama said:


> I guess I'm just not willing to risk putting my personal Danes through the trauma of experiencing GVD at any cost. And I'm a Dane girl through and through!


Oh, don't get me wrong, for the dogs that are already born I would never ban surgeries that are to make their life more comfortable. It's just breeding of puppies knowing that they will suffer from this or that disease that makes me furious.


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## Liz (Sep 27, 2010)

DaneMama, I too love Danes but have steered away due to health issues and short life span. I am so glad to hear you want a moderate Dane. Huge they are impressive but correct size I believe they are equally so and if that helps with some health issues I think that is wonderful. Moderation is something breeders forget about sometimes. We have shelties who carry so much coat and are so heavy boned they couldn't herd to save their lives, they focus so much of the picture book outlinethey forget about temperment and working ability. Collies are the same - so worried about coat and head they forget heart and brain sometimes, it breaks my heart to see issues due to our selfishness in breeding. Breed healthy, structurally sound tempermentally outstanding dogs and everything else falls into place. My Sheltie is title in Int'l and UKC and will be going for her Grand Ch. in UKC then obedience work. I highly doubt she would finish AKC because she is just not dripping coat and is on the larger end of standard (15 1/2). On the other hand she has excellent herding drive, is not shy, timid or skittish, and structurally moves like a dream. This dog could herd all day. I think alot of breeding is about personal standards and what you can give up and what you cannot give up.


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## DaneMama (Jun 27, 2008)

Danecolor- yes a pexy only prevents the torsion. I just get lazy and call it "bloat" since thats what a lot of people refer to it as. 

It pains me to see Dane breeders brag about how giant their dogs are but have no health testing to show for it. Honestly I think the breed standard needs to change because even a 150 pound Dane that has been fully health tested to be clear isn't going to be as healthy as a Dane much smaller IMO based on experience. Once these giant dogs get old they cannot move well, have terrible arthritis regardless of "good" joints, have weakened hearts, etc. I feel that if we start to breed down the overall size of Danes that they will live longer lives. 

Bailey is 120 pounds and 32 inches at the shoulder and I feel that that is the biggest I'd want a female. Zuri is a year old now and weighs 85 pounds and is 29 inches at the shoulder, which is still within standard but she'd be laughed out of a show ring because she's a "shrimp" since most show breeders breed for very large dogs. She may get bigger but I think she will be petite which I actually really like. She can run, she's agile, she's smart, she's everything a Dane should be...just not this oversized dog who can't move. Definitely not the big dopey dog most people think about when they hear Great Dane.


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## BrownieM (Aug 30, 2010)

DaneMama said:


> Unfortunately not just Danes are at risk. Labs, dobermans, GSDs, GSPs, standard poodles, Irish wolfhounds, mastiffs in general, bloodhounds, even BRTs. Basically any dog that is larger, with deep chests. It is true that Danes bloat more than any other breed and i wish it could be bred out. But that would mean changing the entire conformation of the standard. I personally think that the bigger the Dane the more likely the chance that it'll bloat at some point in it's life, so as a prospective breeder I'm personally not going to select the largest dogs I can find for my breeding program like most Dane breeders. In general dogs bred to the extreme of any physical trait aren't healthy (ie Pomeranians that are bred so small their legs break from jumping off a couch).
> 
> I guess I'm just not willing to risk putting my personal Danes through the trauma of experiencing GVD at any cost. And I'm a Dane girl through and through!
> 
> Cats can even get GVD, even humans and horses...it's just something that happens.


Yes, it is prone in other breeds. And that is why I believe that a breeder should not perform a gastropexy on a breeding dog of any breed. Perhaps if we only breed the ones that don't bloat, and then spay/neuter all relatives if that original breeding dog DOES bloat, we can reduce whatever familial trait it is that causes certain breeds and certain lines to bloat more than others. 

This is why reputable poodle breeders do not tack breeding stock. It would be considered extremely unethical to do this. Reputable poodle breeders spay a bitch/dog as soon as they bloat OR have torsion and many will then go on to spay/neuter the siblings and offspring.


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## BrownieM (Aug 30, 2010)

danecolor said:


> correct me if i am wrong, but i was under the impression that gastropexy does not prevent bloat from occurring, rather it it prevents the torsion, which is the fatal component of GDV. i thought that bloat would still potentially occur and be able to be identified, just not be fatal with a pexy.


Pexy prevents torsion, which is the real killer. A dog can still bloat with a pexy, but, according to multiple vets I consulted, they all explained that they see bloat as well as torsion occuring LESS often in pexied dogs than non-pexied dogs, for whatever reason. BUT, dogs do still bloat when pexied, and a small number even still have torsion.

Bloat itself can still be fatal, even without torsion, just not as rapidly. Some dogs bloat without ever torseing, and some dogs have torsion without ever appearing bloated (my dog).


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## DaneMama (Jun 27, 2008)

BrownieM said:


> Yes, it is prone in other breeds. And that is why I believe that a breeder should not perform a gastropexy on a breeding dog of any breed. Perhaps if we only breed the ones that don't bloat, and then spay/neuter all relatives if that original breeding dog DOES bloat, we can reduce whatever familial trait it is that causes certain breeds and certain lines to bloat more than others.
> 
> This is why reputable poodle breeders do not tack breeding stock. It would be considered extremely unethical to do this. Reputable poodle breeders spay a bitch/dog as soon as they bloat OR have torsion and many will then go on to spay/neuter the siblings and offspring.


While this is a good thought, some Danes dont get GVD until they're 10 years old, produced many breeding dogs themselves, who in turn may or may not have been bred themselves. So, it's kinda illogical to spay/neuter all the danes that do get GVD because it is totally random. I think this would be more easily applied to a breed like poodles since it's not that common. But for Danes this just doesnt make sense because statistically you'd have to sterilize 25% of the gene pool on ONE trait alone (ie GVD). Narrowing of the gene pool that much more would be so costly to the breed as a whole that it would do far more harm than good. It's never good to base breeding stock on one trait alone, whether or not they will get GVD. 

Your statement also makes me think that you'd want all the breeders who don't pexy their dogs to NOT try and prevent it in any way, like limiting exercise before and after feeding, raised feeders, etc. Because any prevention might allow a GVD "carrying" dog to not get it when they should. Which would still further perpetuate the trait through breeding lines, if in fact that it is "familial" like you believe. What are your thoughts in regards to this?


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## bernadettelevis (Feb 2, 2011)

Weims are another breed prone to bloat, and since i didn't get a pexi when he was neutered, i'm thinking about it! I'm constantly scared that he bloats, since only 1,5 months ago, a very good friend of his (GSD) died of bloat!

Oh and in our off leash area, there is a dane who is huge! He is 14 months and weights almost 160 pounds!! That's crazy. Plus when you lookd at his eyes all you can see is red and his muzzles are so long.....not beautiful at all and that poor dog.


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## BrownieM (Aug 30, 2010)

DaneMama said:


> While this is a good thought, some Danes dont get GVD until they're 10 years old, produced many breeding dogs themselves, who in turn may or may not have been bred themselves. So, it's kinda illogical to spay/neuter all the danes that do get GVD because it is totally random. I think this would be more easily applied to a breed like poodles since it's not that common. But for Danes this just doesnt make sense because statistically you'd have to sterilize 25% of the gene pool on ONE trait alone (ie GVD). Narrowing of the gene pool that much more would be so costly to the breed as a whole that it would do far more harm than good. It's never good to base breeding stock on one trait alone, whether or not they will get GVD.
> 
> Your statement also makes me think that you'd want all the breeders who don't pexy their dogs to NOT try and prevent it in any way, like limiting exercise before and after feeding, raised feeders, etc. Because any prevention might allow a GVD "carrying" dog to not get it when they should. Which would still further perpetuate the trait through breeding lines, if in fact that it is "familial" like you believe. What are your thoughts in regards to this?


Same thing with poodles. Some bloat young, some bloat as seniors. Most breeders hold more "weight" in whether or not there was a familial trait that might have predisposed a dog to the bloat if it occurs very young. It's the idea of predisposition + environmental = affected. Senior bloat tends to be regarded differently. Still, a GOOD poodle breeder will report bloat, even in a senior dog, on an online health registry. Breeders and knowledgable owners of poodles DO look at density of bloat within lines when deciding on a breeding OR when buying a pet.

RE: taking environmental precautions - as far as I know most dane owners take those precautions AND their dogs still may bloat regardless. Those precautions do NOT prevent a dog from bloating or torsing.

There no such thing as "carrying" bloat. Nobody knows what causes bloat, it's probably a group of things, but it IS denser in some lines, families, whatever you call it, and thus NOT breeding animals that DO bloat is one of the most powerful things a breeder can do to try and prevent bloat in their own line.


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## SpooOwner (Oct 1, 2010)

DaneMama said:


> It is true that Danes bloat more than any other breed and i wish it could be bred out. But that would mean changing the entire conformation of the standard.


Here's a question that's been lingering in my mind. Is it ethical to continue breeds that have diseases/etc. tied to conformation? Wouldn't it be more ethical to change the conformation to get healthier dogs? I love the look of a Dane (and of course, Std Poodle) with a good tuck, but maybe we should start breeding away from the deep forechests which are susceptible to GDV? And, e.g., away from brachycephaly? I realize that it might mean that I no longer love the look of the standard poodle, but I'd find a new love....


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## DaneMama (Jun 27, 2008)

You and agree on one thing that it isn't carried. GVD is handled much different between Danes and poodles.


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## DaneMama (Jun 27, 2008)

SpooOwner said:


> Here's a question that's been lingering in my mind. Is it ethical to continue breeds that have diseases/etc. tied to conformation? Wouldn't it be more ethical to change the conformation to get healthier dogs? I love the look of a Dane (and of course, Std Poodle) with a good tuck, but maybe we should start breeding away from the deep forechests which are susceptible to GDV? And, e.g., away from brachycephaly? I realize that it might mean that I no longer love the look of the standard poodle, but I'd find a new love....


This I agree with! And is why I have no problem breeding a "shrimpy" Dane. Because I too believe that it's the larger Danes that tend to get GVD more often.


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## BrownieM (Aug 30, 2010)

DaneMama said:


> You and agree on one thing that it isn't carried. GVD is handled much different between Danes and poodles.


As far as we KNOW, GDV, itself is not carried. But, we don't actually know that for sure. Anyway, it IS very possible that there are a combination of physical, behavioral, emotional, temperamental, you name it, traits that ARE carried within breeds, families and lines that predispose a dog to bloat, in any breed.

This is totally unrelated to Danes, but a breeder of poodles that I know is currently following up on a study that inbreeding depression could be related to bloat/torsion in poodles. 

http://www.canine-genetics.com/Default.htm - Interesting article for all interested in canine genetics
http://www.standardpoodleproject.com/ - Interesting info related to the MHC Standard Poodle Project

This breeder who shared the info, has been importing studs from Europe that share zero common ancestry and have a very low Wycliffe % (Wycliffe was a *horrible* case of genetic bottleneck in poodles). Basically, with poodles, at a certain time, all were highly related. It is nearly impossible to find a TRUE outcross with very low Wycliffe % by breeding any poodle in the USA that has USA bloodlines. 

Anyway, totally off topic for this forum and thread..I"m sorry.


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## danecolor (Nov 22, 2010)

i will add in that i absolutely agree that moderation is better. it is entirely possible to have a giant breed dog that is not crippled by its size, but that dog must be athletic and with a measure of grace, not a 200lb lumbering, massive wreck. i am a firm believer that if a dog can function well, health will follow. that is why i would rather see less-massive Danes succeeding in agility than conformation champions who are 170lb huge-chested dogs and cannot run all day on a hike because their massive size stresses their joints. to put it simply, tall is not bad as long as the dog is svelte and well-structured (both skeletal and musculature). what is bad is massiveness and excess emphasis on sheer size without balance.

ETA: part of what makes a Dane a Dane is its size. that does not mean that the biggest possible is the best though. for example, my girl is 115lbs and around 33inches tall. this is no means an enormous Dane, but well within the standard. she is athletic and kept at a very healthy weight and condition, yet her front and rear angles are very straight. if she were a huge 150lb Dane, i definitely think the improper distribution of weight caused by her straight angles would cause her to be plagued by joint pain. but because she is not super thick or massive, she is completely happy and healthy.


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