# prey model vs. ground premixed raw



## pittymama (Dec 9, 2010)

who feeds what and why? please.

i just switched from wellness core (thankfully) and decided to start off with bravo chicken raw. hoping to branch out to prey but i needed something to start with that wasn't too intimidating while i still do my research. it's hard to wrap your mind around the prey model concept after years of being paranoid of choking and always avoiding small bones. 

how do i get around that? i know it's important to avoid small chunks that they can gulp down, and instead opt for larger pieces that they'll have to crunch through. 

also, does everyone here crate or separate during prey feeding? i know i will certainly have to. 

any and all advice is welcomed! thank you. :biggrin:


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## RachelsaurusRexU (Sep 4, 2010)

I feel prey model raw, as do most raw feeders here. 

Just keep reading and asking questions! You'll become comfortable with it in no time. And, just so you know, it sounds a lot more intimidating and complicated than it actually is! It's a piece of cake once you get started, you'll see!

I have five dogs, only two of which can eat together without incident. Everybody else is separated and sometimes crated for mealtime.


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## DaneMama (Jun 27, 2008)

Why I feed raw is defined in the link below:

http://preymodelraw.com/why-pmr/

The fear you have of your dogs choking on bones will only go away with experience. The thought is daunting in the beginning but once you get started you won't give it another thought. I have yet to have any real issue with choking in years...

As far as crating your dog during feeding times you can but it's not necessary unless you need to separate dogs out...


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## BrownieM (Aug 30, 2010)

I feed both of mine outside in different areas of the yard. Millie does have a tendency to finish first and want to steal Henry's, so sometimes I feed her on the porch with Henry within the fenced area. This way they are separated by a fence.


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## CorgiPaws (Mar 31, 2009)

Reasons I feed PMR, over pre made ground mixes

1. Dogs have NO need for any plant matter in their diets, as they are carnivores, and can not digest unprocessed plants. Most of those pre made mixes, still contain just as much plant matter as kibbles, just in their raw forms. 

2. I like to be able to control how much meat:bonergan ratio I have going on. While all dogs are carnivores, and do best on a diet of meat, bones, and organs, I do feel that some dogs need more of one thing than another. For example, my Boxer needs more bone content in her diet than my Dane, to keep stools firm and healthy. (Kind of like how I can eat a whole tub of ice cream without getting sick, and my husband can have about a scoop or two. :biggrin

3. Raw feeding has some really excellent dental benefits, and I don't want to miss out on them! Feeding whole chunks of meat on the bone forces my girls to chew, rip, and tear their food, cleaning their teeth in the process. Granted, mine are both young, but generally a dog fed PMR who starts with clean teeth doesn't have to have routine dental cleanings done. Dogs are not naturally equipped to be able to grab a toothbrush and brush them clean, which tells me that they are designed to not need to. (Reason 2348967239869 why feeding kibble makes no sense. )

4. I like knowing that the food they eat has been handled properly right up until it comes into my house. This does not go to say that I have the whole "I wont feed them anything I wouldn't eat" complex going on, but rather, I know the Chicken in their diet is in fact what I think of when I think "chicken".... rather than some random mash up of bone, feathers, beaks, tumors, bruises, etc. that generally make up the "Chicken" found in pet foods. 

5. I'm learning more about the denaturing process meats for the pet food industry are put through. I don't know enough at all to attempt to educate, but seriously- google it. It's freaky. Noooo, thank you. 

6. I like to take the most natural path possible when it comes to health care for my pets. I bunch diet right in there with health care because it is the cornerstone of good health! Dogs in the wild idn't grind in berries, veggies, and fruit with their meat, so I see no reason to do so, either. There is something gratifying abut dropping a huge chunk of raw, fleshy bone in meat, and watching my girls have at it. :biggrin:

7. Price. No, not the most important aspect of it all, but we all have a budget, some bigger than others, and pre made raw certainly does NOT fit into mine! PMR can be done well under $1 per pound in most areas. While I've been springing for things like Quail, Duck, Goat, and Lamb lately, and am feeding much more fish than chicken these days, I am spending closer to $2 a pound. BUT, that is still less than HALF the cost per pound for pre made stuff, and for something I know to be superior, it's a win-win. I also like knowing that IF I had to, IF money got really tight, IF an emergency cut my funds, that I could stick to PMR and cut my expenses even further. 

8. Mostly, I feed PMR because I have dogs.


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## Ania's Mommy (Feb 8, 2009)

^^^^ Yup. Me too. Nice work, Linsey!


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## SamWu1 (Oct 15, 2010)

PMR have dental and mental benefits as opposed to ground mixes that requires no chewing and has the potential to cause impactions because the lack of chewing doesn't stimulate the stomach to churn up digestive juices.

I do use some mixes because I use alot of beef but I know exactly what's in it because I buy it from my butcher and he grinds it for me and I also use poultry RMB's for bone and crunch.

With that said, I'm not againsts grinds but I would prefer a whole carcass anyday.


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## RachelsaurusRexU (Sep 4, 2010)

Oops, I forgot my 'whys' but I think Linsey about covered it!


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## sassymaxmom (Dec 7, 2008)

I feed prey model and would not be offering pre made stuff as it is far over my budget just for starters. I like the control of how much bone and organ my dog gets. I like that I know what the meat looks like. Not a fan of the extras put into most of those grinds. 

I love the dental benefits and the great time he has when he gets to eat something big and hard to figure out. Lots more benefits for him too, he was just fine on kibble and cooked food but on raw, oh my! I thought he was just a 33 pound weakling but it turns out he needs more protein and fat than Sassy did for good skin/fur/muscle.

He eats in the back yard or a gated off tile floored front hall and I separate the dogs so they don't worry. Did the same with kibble too. Well, no gate needed for meals that took 15 seconds to scarf down.

Sassy actually taught us how tough dog guts are with her garbage raids. She once swallowed a large ceramic shard with no ill effects and often got into the garage and garbage and ate whole cup o noodle cups, raw rice, cooked chicken bones and beef ribs and the like. She had really stupid humans. I finally figured out raw beef ribs make good teeth cleaning, fun and cheap chewies and the seed was sown. We also had a very tough Jack Russell Terrier who once swallowed a gopher in about 3 gulps. I looked for bones or teeth in his poop for a week, nothing. I really did not worry about bones! Swallowing whole bits and feeding too much, yes. Eating bones, no.

You might look through youtube for videos of dogs eating chicken. Really they look like they are crunching up peanut brittle, it is that easy for them.


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## eternalstudent (Jul 22, 2010)

I feed as close to a natural diet as I can, it provides my pup with mental problems (how to get meat from ribs) to dental benefit. I do use a mix from my butcher as a source of rich red meat and organs as beef and lamb are very very expensive over here ($5 / lb for cheep beef).

I have witnessed my pup choke on food once and it was quite impressive how far she was able to fire the kibble across the kitchen. If she can choke on kibble then the choking hazard for real food can only be the same. (I have found it is less as she now chews food  )

I currently feed her in the kitchen where she pushes and drops her food all over the place then has great fun licking the whole of the floor afterwards!!!


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## schtuffy (May 17, 2010)

I feed PMR because after months of researching the best kibble for my dog, it repeatedly came up as the best choice by far. I understand your hesitation because I was going through the same thing a couple months ago. You are already going in the right direction, so just jump in and give it a try! It really is the only way to get over it :smile: Good luck!


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## pittymama (Dec 9, 2010)

still reading through all of your posts but thank you all so much! it's my understanding that prey model is best too, just going to have to take the leap soon and see for myself that they can handle it without choking (my main and essentially only hesitation). 

i think i'll just feed them in separate areas, separated by a gate. they get along very well but raw meat on the bone is just too high value to risk feeding them in the same space, especially since it may take some time.


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## pittymama (Dec 9, 2010)

i like the idea of the mental stimulation aspect too. totally makes sense to me... as well as 'seeing what you're feeding.' anything ground can be to an extent - mystery. then with whole, the question becomes, are they given antibiotics, hormones, how is it processed (chemicals, etc.) and of course the quality of life of the animal. this is a tough one for me. i really don't want to support huge factory farms, so it will be a challenge to find humanely sourced meats at an affordable price. i suspect the more local, the better. i'll have to start doing my homework. 

so funny to go from being a vegetarian for years to worshipping the cow who sacrificed his femur for my dogs and two hours of peace for me! i literally thank the animal every time i take a marrow bone out of the freezer.


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## DaneMama (Jun 27, 2008)

The way you avoid choking is very simple. Feed raw meaty bones that are not small enough to be swallowed. It's normal for "gulper" dogs to crunch through a whole chicken quarter 3-5 times and then swallow the rest whole. If it fits down the hatch there isn't anything to worry about. If it doesn't fit down, dogs are very adapt to regurgitating their food to chew it a bit more. The first few times you experience this it will be nerve racking because the sounds and movements dogs make while regurgitating are sometimes frightening. But in time and experience this will just become second nature to you. You may luck out that your dogs will be diligent and meticulous chewers (depends on the dog) and will chew even the smallest raw meaty bones extensively. You'll find out right off the bat if your dogs are gulpers or chewers. But don't let this one little thing stand in your way.....

There is a very positive trend that many raw feeders are vegetarian or vegan. I think it has to do with health conscious people who look out for their own health but also their dogs health. I'm not vegetarian but I am very health conscious!


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## pittymama (Dec 9, 2010)

thank you, natalie. all of your posts have been extremely informative thus far. i appreciate it! your pups are gorgeous and i'm a huge fan of colorado. my brother went to boulder for undergrad so my folks and i were constantly looking for excuses to go visit. such a beautiful state...


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## DaneMama (Jun 27, 2008)

Yeah we love it here but we are looking to move to Idaho in the next year or so because it's just as beautiful there with less people.


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## RachelsaurusRexU (Sep 4, 2010)

pittymama said:


> i like the idea of the mental stimulation aspect too. totally makes sense to me... as well as 'seeing what you're feeding.' anything ground can be to an extent - mystery. then with whole, the question becomes, are they given antibiotics, hormones, how is it processed (chemicals, etc.) and of course the quality of life of the animal. this is a tough one for me. i really don't want to support huge factory farms, so it will be a challenge to find humanely sourced meats at an affordable price. i suspect the more local, the better. i'll have to start doing my homework.
> 
> so funny to go from being a vegetarian for years to worshipping the cow who sacrificed his femur for my dogs and two hours of peace for me! i literally thank the animal every time i take a marrow bone out of the freezer.


I hear you on this! I haven't eaten meat in about 14 years, and I struggled with finding humanely raised local meat that I could afford. If I had one or two dogs, I could probably pull it off, but I have five, and three raw fed cats. This is the way I reasoned it out in my head: I can't afford local meat from small farms. The alternatives are A) feeding affordable meats that I can buy from this wholesaler, B) feeding kibble that has who knows what parts from the same factory farmed animals plus all kinds of other garbage because I certainly can't afford the highest end kibbles with five good sized dogs, or C) feed vegan dog food which was absolutely never going to happen. In the end, I wasn't willing to sacrifice my dogs' health, so I had to compromise. 

The plus side of hormones is that they are NOT used in poultry or pork, this practice was actually banned around the 40's. Even with cattle, hormones are more so used in dairy production. Antibiotics are used to combat certain issues in food animals, but in most cases they are not constantly fed antibiotics all their lives. 

I get a lot of my basics from a wholesaler in New Haven, and I go through a co-op of sorts (who carries only meats from the New England area, and I am almost positive that the beef is pasture-raised and the rabbit is local and small family farmed) for a few other things. I was able to find fresh venison scraps leftover from hunters this season, and keep my eyes open for similar situations. 

I don't know where exactly in CT you are, but I'd be more than happy to share my sources with you if you're interested! I PMed you yesterday just to say hi and introduce myself, not sure if you received it.


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## cast71 (Sep 16, 2010)

pittymama said:


> so funny to go from being a vegetarian for years to worshipping the cow who sacrificed his femur for my dogs and two hours of peace for me! i literally thank the animal every time i take a marrow bone out of the freezer.


Weight bearing cow femur bones can break a dogs teeth. Any other bone is fine. Take a look at this thread http://dogfoodchat.com/forum/general-dog-discussion/4157-why-ill-never-give-dog-marrow-bone.html


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## pittymama (Dec 9, 2010)

cast71 said:


> Weight bearing cow femur bones can break a dogs teeth. Any other bone is fine. Take a look at this thread http://dogfoodchat.com/forum/general-dog-discussion/4157-why-ill-never-give-dog-marrow-bone.html


whoa. thanks for sharing. so any suggestions on which other bones specifically you'd recommend for recreation bones (i guess they're called). 

thank you!

also - is that a dogo argentino in your avatar pic?


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## RawFedDogs (Jun 16, 2008)

Many people use beef rib bones for both rec bones and bones to feed.

*ETA:* I use Nylabones for rec bones.


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## BrownieM (Aug 30, 2010)

You can try Antlers!


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

weighing the cost of feeding raw versus the savings in vet bills, i.e. dentals....i believe in the long run, i save money by feeding raw.

my dogs are healthier now and one is going on eleven....their teeth are magnificent...

the results of raw feeding ( i was very skeptical in the beginning, but i couldn't find a kibble that met my requirements for their health).....have been astounding.....

i had to get used to some things, such as the regurgitation dance when my pug swallows something whole because he's a gulper....it's funny now, but it was panic city in the beginning....he's also slowed down quite a bit now, too....

along the way, i've realised that the changes they have to go through are not necessarily a match for my time schedule...i had heard marvelous things about raw and a week after i started, i wanted results....not knowing, being naive about the time it takes.....for it all to come together...and why it's so important to go slowly (thank you DFC)

the only manufactured product i feed is a ground tripe......from greentripe.com and i'm reasonbly sure of its quality...

with pre packaged raw foods, i have no idea what the ratio of bone to meat is...no idea where the meat came from......even on my co op, there is a guy who sells 4D meat.....which is downer cows....

and, whilst i will feed my dogs food from the supermarket, i draw the line at rendered cows....

you're right. it is hard to wrap one's head around the bone thing.....when my pug swallowed a drumstick whole, i stopped breathing for a bit, until he horked it up and started over.....see...his mouth is much wider than his throat and he's a stupid eater...

but now, 9 months later, he's learned to crunch......and i think within the next year, both will be pros....because the changes are still coming....

we feed our dogs on a towel in the kitchen....i sat between them as they ate, in the beginning so they learned boundaries and now they're fine...not all dogs are like that and you have to be comfortable where you feed them....the towel is great for me, since, all i have to do now is fold it up for the next meal and wash it when it's really grungy....

we started with backs, once i got schooled.....more bone helps the process and chicken backs are softer than other proteins.....we fed a little less than what they were supposed to get so they would have firm stools and not go through cannon butt....

when i would make a mistake, i'd start over with backs for a few days until the poo solidified and then continued with the transition....

hope this helps...and welcome!


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