# protein



## Jgk2383 (Oct 27, 2010)

I know ive read it before but cannot find my source. Can anyone tell me about the protein in the PMR diet, about the approx % and the approx % of kibble? My 6 month old GSD has a bout of Pano and im hearing I am feeding too much protein.


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## Sunyoung (Feb 18, 2011)

I'm not sure of the percentages of kibble vs. raw BUT I do know that PMR has less protein than kibble does. Protein is more diluted in PMR due to liquids and water levels. Kibble is more concentrated because there is no moisture - just compact, bland cocoa puffs.


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## BrownieM (Aug 30, 2010)

All you have to do is plug in the item you are feeding to the USDA database and you can find out the exact percentage of protein in that food. I believe a PMR diet is less protein than the grain free, high protein kibbles out there. Almost everything I have looked up in the database has been between 17 and 25% protein. 

http://www.nal.usda.gov/fnic/foodcomp/search/


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## RawFedDogs (Jun 16, 2008)

Jgk2383 said:


> I know ive read it before but cannot find my source. Can anyone tell me about the protein in the PMR diet, about the approx % and the approx % of kibble? My 6 month old GSD has a bout of Pano and im hearing I am feeding too much protein.


The amount of protein in kibble is written in the nutrient profile on the bag. You've already been given the sources to look at as far as PMR goes but it is usually somewhere around 20% +/- depending on exactly what cut of what meat you are feeding. Having said all that, it has been determined that protein amount in the diet has no effect on pano. High protein is not the cause of it. It is suspected that ca/ph ratio may have some effect on pano but I'm not even sure of that.


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## Northwoods10 (Nov 22, 2010)

Its a common misunderstanding that people believe raw meat has more protein than kibble, but as stated above, due to the water content it has less than most quality kibbles. 

I have heard it is a rare occurance for a raw fed dog/puppy to come up with pano. Do you feed a lot of bone (calcium)? I know that was somethign I watched with Remi was how much bone he got growing up..still do.


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## Jgk2383 (Oct 27, 2010)

Thanks everyone. I ask alot of questions because I want to have as much information as possible when people challenge my decision to feed raw. Northwoods, I do feed alot of bone in meat. Chicken backs, Quarters and turkey necks. I will scale back.


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## DaneMama (Jun 27, 2008)

Maybe feed a bone in meal alternating with a boneless meal, either by day or meal. 

You also have to remember that raw doesn't prevent everything from happening. Raw fed dogs are still prone to disease. Is your pup heavy at all?


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## Jgk2383 (Oct 27, 2010)

see I do not understand the site. Like today I fed Beef Heart, and a chicken quarter. The protein amount of just the beef heart (8oz) comes to--
Protein 40.5 and the chicken quarter is 30.31


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## Jgk2383 (Oct 27, 2010)

DaneMama said:


> Maybe feed a bone in meal alternating with a boneless meal, either by day or meal.
> 
> You also have to remember that raw doesn't prevent everything from happening. Raw fed dogs are still prone to disease. Is your pup heavy at all?


No he is very lean, maybe a bit too lean. I will weigh him intoday and let you know. I saw his littermate last night at training and he is huge compared to my guy.


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## BrownieM (Aug 30, 2010)

Did you select the value from 100 grams? You must do it out of 100 grams in order to make it a percent...

Beef heart is 17% protein.

A leg is 18% protein.


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## Jgk2383 (Oct 27, 2010)

yike so 35% today


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## BrownieM (Aug 30, 2010)

Jgk2383 said:


> yike so 35% today


Again, there is really no proof that protein has ANY effect on Pano or growing too fast. It is the calcium/phosphorus ratio that matters.


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## RawFedDogs (Jun 16, 2008)

Jgk2383 said:


> see I do not understand the site. Like today I fed Beef Heart, and a chicken quarter. The protein amount of just the beef heart (8oz) comes to--
> Protein 40.5 and the chicken quarter is 30.31


I'm not sure what numbers you are using but according to the USDA, raw beef heart is 17.7% protein (after excess fat, connective tissue, and veins are removed). The actual amount of protein is probably less than 15%.

Chicken quarters are about 17% protein and thats after bone is removed so its probably a lot less if you include bones. 

So you see, you aren't feeding nearly the amount of protein you think you are.


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## BrownieM (Aug 30, 2010)

Not sure what the protein difference in a quarter vs. leg would be, but accd. to USDA website 100 grams of a chicken leg, with fat, skin and bone still intact, is 18% protein.


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## luvMyBRT (Mar 8, 2010)

I agree in the statement that protein probably has nothing to do with growing too fast and pano, especially with the protein being a species appropriate one. It is the calcium/phosphorus you need to be careful of. If your feeding a lot of bone, I would just try to cut back some.


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## RawFedDogs (Jun 16, 2008)

BrownieM said:


> Not sure what the protein difference in a quarter vs. leg would be, but accd. to USDA website 100 grams of a chicken leg, with fat, skin and bone still intact, is 18% protein.


If you look at the USDA listings for raw chicken, you will see a listing for "all dark meat" or something like that. Thats what I use for quarters.


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## DaneMama (Jun 27, 2008)

BrownieM said:


> Did you select the value from 100 grams? You must do it out of 100 grams in order to make it a percent...
> 
> Beef heart is 17% protein.
> 
> A leg is 18% protein.





Jgk2383 said:


> yike so 35% today


Ok, you also don't add the percentages together to get your total protein per meal. You take the average of the two by adding them together and dividing by 2. 

17 + 18 = 35

35 / 2 = *17.5%*

Do you feed bone at every meal?


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## BrownieM (Aug 30, 2010)

DaneMama said:


> Ok, you also don't add the percentages together to get your total protein per meal. You take the average of the two by adding them together and dividing by 2.
> 
> 17 + 18 = 35
> 
> 35 / 2 = *17.5%*


I *thought* so! I was going to type that out but I am LD in math so sometimes I am completely wrong and embarass myself...


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## Jgk2383 (Oct 27, 2010)

Thanks so much lol I was like 35% Yikes!?!? Yes I am giving bone in ALMOST everymeal. today I did not give bone, I gave Tripe and Beef Heart. I am going to cut back on bone and see what happens.


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## DaneMama (Jun 27, 2008)

Thats what I suggest you do since bone doesn't need to be a large portion of the diet. I always suggest to feed alternating bone in meals with boneless meals, as long as the dog can handle it just fine. Some dogs just need bone with every meal so they don't get diarrhea. My dogs can go about two days without bone before their stools become soft/runny.


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## BrownieM (Aug 30, 2010)

Jgk2383 said:


> Thanks so much lol I was like 35% Yikes!?!? Yes I am giving bone in ALMOST everymeal. today I did not give bone, I gave Tripe and Beef Heart. I am going to cut back on bone and see what happens.


You do not want bone to be more than 10% of the diet, especially in this case, IMO. 

There is some math involved if you want to be precise. But, I can tell you that I feed very close to exactly 10-15% bone and my dogs eat a bone-in meal only once every fourth meal. (I feed twice daily. So one bone meal every other day)

I would slowly reduce your bone-in meals until you can feed 1-3 boneless meals followed by a bone-in meal, while maintaining solid, firm (not hard or crumbly) stool.


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## DaneMama (Jun 27, 2008)

To me it's the idea of feeding the least amount of bone as possible that your dogs can handle well.


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## Jgk2383 (Oct 27, 2010)

They do get horrible poop if they go too long without bone so that is why I was trying to include it more. I will cut it out and see what happens. I just dont know what would happen if I gave 2lbs of boneless meat in one day. I am horrible at math as well so I do worry that I am screwing up all over the place.


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## BrownieM (Aug 30, 2010)

Do you feed once daily or twice daily? How long have you been feeding raw?


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## Jgk2383 (Oct 27, 2010)

Sometiems I feed once a day sometimes twice I do not like them to get accustomed to a set schedule. I have been strict PMR for a year before that I was supplementing with raw for about 3 years.


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## BrownieM (Aug 30, 2010)

Wow, I would think that after a year they would be able to go 1-2 meals without bone. Well, you have been doing this longer than me and everyone's dogs are different. I would still try and cut down bone, though. Have you tried calculating to see around how much bone you are currently feeding?


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## DaneMama (Jun 27, 2008)

What I would do is slowly get them used to less bone. The boneless meals feed less and the bone in meals feed more to offset. Then gradually increase the size of the boneless meals as long as they'll handle it. For a boneless meal of rich meat maybe include a RMB to help out. I've gotten our dogs to the point of handling a whole meal of beef heart without bone. But it has to be sandwiched between bone in meals.


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## BrownieM (Aug 30, 2010)

Also, if it is a boneless day and I have a gut feeling that my dogs might need a smidgen more bone to firm things up, but I don't want to increase the bone amount too much (ie. when I feed my first whole boneless meal of venison), I will feed a chicken foot. This helps with my dogs.


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## Jgk2383 (Oct 27, 2010)

im going to try this over the next few weeks. Ill post an update!! Thanks all


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## Ringoratter (Feb 13, 2011)

This thread is very helpful to me also. We are now into fourth week of raw and the dogs continue to do great. But I have had a problem figuring out how much bone to give. They are getting bone in their meals every day so I think we will cut back some on that. So far they have had chicken everyday, either backs or legs and quarters for Sophie. They had boneless pork last week and then this week started on fish. So far they have had canned salmon and sardines.


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## DaneMama (Jun 27, 2008)

Ringoratter said:


> This thread is very helpful to me also. We are now into fourth week of raw and the dogs continue to do great. But I have had a problem figuring out how much bone to give. They are getting bone in their meals every day so I think we will cut back some on that. So far they have had chicken everyday, either backs or legs and quarters for Sophie. They had boneless pork last week and then this week started on fish. So far they have had canned salmon and sardines.


I'm glad you are finding this helpful, although I would say that since your dogs are so new to raw (only a month in) that you should keep giving them bone in meals for another month or so. Once you have gotten all your protein sources added including organs....thats the time to wean out all bone in meals. Sometimes the whole transition process takes like 4-6 months, it all depends on the dog.


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## monkeys23 (Dec 8, 2010)

I found it helpful to read also because it corresponds with what I've noticed with my foster GSD mix. She's just now getting to the point where I feel like I can start doing more boneless. Right now she eats a quarter nearly every morning and then something boneless (usually beef heart) at night. But organ days I do boneless in the am because I've been doing turkey necks with the organ meals to get the correct ratios of both in the diet without undue tummy issues. Which has been working great so far!


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