# pit breeding....



## lmgakg

I am not sure where to go or what to do, my aunt has some new neighbors. Two families have moved into one house, with the economy it's understandable, however, they have at least 4 dogs. Two grown pits and two puppies... And they are not pets, they appear to be a source of income or something, but the backyard is filled with trash, the city has been called on them. The grass gets to about a foot before they cut it. And they keep the adult pits chained up - not on long chains either. Occasionally, it's just the female chained - which I assume is for the breeding. The pups are not nursing anymore, however they are small. It kills me to see these poor dogs. Everytime one of the people, including the little kids, walks in the yard, they start screaming at the dogs, get in the back. Get in the back. One of them got beat for tearing up a garbage bag, but hell, the yard is filled with trash, I'm sure the dog assumed he was helping!!!! I don't know for sure that they are abused, but they are definitely not well cared for. And I know that a chained dog is a dangerous dog... Does anyone have any suggestions??? Oh, and talking to these idiots is not an option...they moved in from the slums of Detroit because the prices are super cheap - but they really belong in the slums of Detroit. I feel so bad for the kids, they are little, like under 12....I'm sure headed for trouble. 

Lisa


----------



## kevin bradley

Lisa,

Just more loveliness in our state, heh? 

You can call the local humane sociey, which will likely be futile. Pit rescue groups possibly?... I'm just thinking out loud here. 

Sadly, you will likely have a front row seat for what goes down every day. I once thought about having flyers printed up talking about how wrong it was to chain dogs... and do it in a diplomatic, sensitive way(not attacking the owner) and quietly drop it in their mailbox. I just don't have any faith that people would listen.

Oh, did I mention that MY neighbors just let me know that they are moving out of THEIR house(renters) and the 2 adult Cats they "own" just "cannot" go with them. They pulled me aside quickly the other day and said, "you want 'em?" Yeah, "you want 'em?" If you don't "want em," we'll just take em to the Shelter. 


And people question me on my love for Animals over humans.


----------



## lmgakg

(some) People are stupid...


----------



## monkeys23

lmgakg said:


> I am not sure where to go or what to do, my aunt has some new neighbors. Two families have moved into one house, with the economy it's understandable, however, they have at least 4 dogs. Two grown pits and two puppies... And they are not pets, they appear to be a source of income or something, but the backyard is filled with trash, the city has been called on them. The grass gets to about a foot before they cut it. And they keep the adult pits chained up - not on long chains either. Occasionally, it's just the female chained - which I assume is for the breeding. The pups are not nursing anymore, however they are small. It kills me to see these poor dogs. Everytime one of the people, including the little kids, walks in the yard, they start screaming at the dogs, get in the back. Get in the back. One of them got beat for tearing up a garbage bag, but hell, the yard is filled with trash, I'm sure the dog assumed he was helping!!!! I don't know for sure that they are abused, but they are definitely not well cared for. And I know that a chained dog is a dangerous dog... Does anyone have any suggestions??? Oh, and talking to these idiots is not an option...they moved in from the slums of Detroit because the prices are super cheap - but they really belong in the slums of Detroit. I feel so bad for the kids, they are little, like under 12....I'm sure headed for trouble.
> 
> Lisa


Yay shitty bybs.
Yeah they sound like craptastic owners and I'm sure their dogs have crap genetics.... HOWEVER! A chained dog is NOT a dangerous dog. WTF.... its a frigging method of containment that is responsible and great if done properly. THe problem here is not the chaining.... the problem is sh***y owners and crap bred dogs of questionable genetics being bred for a quick buck.

And I'm sorry using "pit" or "pitty" or "pibble" just f'ing makes me cringe. They are probably crap bred American Bullies. Lemme guess, heavy set chunky, tough looking "pits"?

The only real "pit bull" is the APBT and most wouldn't know one if it bit them on the a**. Which they wouldn't because they are fantabulous with people... not so much with dogs or other animals, but you won't find a better family companion for humans. If its not okay with people because of bad genetics, then I'm sorry it needs a dirt nap. That is not normal or acceptable for the breed. However dog aggression and high prey drive is normal and expected.

There's a lot of b.s. and paper hanging where people claim their purple ribbon whatever crap bred Am Bullies are APBT. They aren't. Know your lines. Know your reputable dog people. It takes research to know whats normal and on the level in ANY BREED OF DOG.

These are the kind of dogs that come in grinning and loving on people after being shot, having the crap kicked, out of them, or whatever else. They are awful "guard" dogs because a good one will help the creeps find your stuff and then trot out with them. They are not one person dogs, they love everyone.

Frankly IMO, both the people who are your neighbors and the foo-foo "furmommy" types who think its all "how you raise them" do equal damage to the bully breeds (APBT, AST, SBT, etc.) despite being on opposite ends of the spectrum. I hate that they are targeted by abusive douches and I hate seeing them set up to fail by people who think all dogs need packs b.s. Its not how you raise them, they were created to be good buddies to their humans, hunt with them, and kill other dogs. The latter is ugly, but hey it created one of the best companions for people ever so I'd say thats certainly quite something. No one feared Petey would eat the Little Rascals.... 

And I chose not to own an APBT because my life is too dog heavy. It was the right decision. Plus its given me time to get to know people, the lines I like, and I will be able to pick out the perfect pup when I'm ready.

I wish more people would take the time to research and be RESPONSIBLE with these wonderful dogs. They deserve far better than the gangsters and willfully ignorant neer do wells give them.

I have Northern breeds.... They are either tied out at my moms or crated inside at my apt when I can't supervise. I'd rather have a safe, happy, healthy, woo-ing silly dog than a dead, injured, shot, lost, etc. dog. Just saying. Of course I also run 5 miles a day with them and work them in PP and take them most everywhere with me.

It really irks me that ignorant assumptions about containment methods could jeopardize my right to keep my beloved animals safe by leading to bad legislation. Dogs that aren't properly managed/contained can also lead to BSL, which sucks for everyone.


----------



## lmgakg

monkeys23 said:


> Yay shitty bybs.
> Yeah they sound like craptastic owners and I'm sure their dogs have crap genetics.... HOWEVER! A chained dog is NOT a dangerous dog. WTF.... its a frigging method of containment that is responsible and great if done properly. THe problem here is not the chaining.... the problem is shitty owners and crap bred dogs of questionable genetics being bred for a quick buck.
> 
> And I'm sorry using "pit" or "pitty" or "pibble" just f'ing makes me cringe. They are probably crap bred American Bullies. Lemme guess, heavy set chunky, tough looking "pits"?
> 
> The only real "pit bull" is the APBT and most wouldn't know one if it bit them on the ass. Which they wouldn't because they are fantabulous with people... not so much with dogs or other animals, but you won't find a better family companion for humans. If its not okay with people because of bad genetics, then I'm sorry it needs a dirt nap. That is not normal or acceptable for the breed. However dog aggression and high prey drive is normal and expected.
> 
> There's a lot of b.s. and paper hanging where people claim their purple ribbon whatever crap bred Am Bullies are APBT. They aren't. Know your lines. Know your reputable dog people. It takes research to know whats normal and on the level in ANY BREED OF DOG.
> 
> These are the kind of dogs that come in grinning and loving on people after being shot, having the crap kicked, out of them, or whatever else. They are awful "guard" dogs because a good one will help the creeps find your stuff and then trot out with them. They are not one person dogs, they love everyone.
> 
> Frankly IMO, both the people who are your neighbors and the foo-foo "furmommy" types who think its all "how you raise them" do equal damage to the bully breeds (APBT, AST, SBT, etc.) despite being on opposite ends of the spectrum. I hate that they are targeted by abusive douches and I hate seeing them set up to fail by people who think all dogs need packs b.s. Its not how you raise them, they were created to be good buddies to their humans, hunt with them, and kill other dogs. The latter is ugly, but hey it created one of the best companions for people ever so I'd say thats certainly quite something. No one feared Petey would eat the Little Rascals....
> 
> And I chose not to own an APBT because my life is too dog heavy. It was the right decision. Plus its given me time to get to know people, the lines I like, and I will be able to pick out the perfect pup when I'm ready.
> 
> I wish more people would take the time to research and be RESPONSIBLE with these wonderful dogs. They deserve far better than the gangsters and willfully ignorant neer do wells give them.
> 
> I have Northern breeds.... They are either tied out at my moms or crated inside at my apt when I can't supervise. I'd rather have a safe, happy, healthy, woo-ing silly dog than a dead, injured, shot, lost, etc. dog. Just saying. Of course I also run 5 miles a day with them and work them in PP and take them most everywhere with me.
> 
> It really irks me that ignorant assumptions about containment methods could jeopardize my right to keep my beloved animals safe by leading to bad legislation. Dogs that aren't properly managed/contained can also lead to BSL, which sucks for everyone.



I am not against any breed of dog, I am however against stupid people. I do not know enough about "pits" to know for certain what the full breed name is, nor have I been close enough to them, they are two yards over. There is a huge difference between a tie out for your dog and/or chaining it up. It sounds as though you are using a tie-out and a crate responsibly. But what I am seeing is a big fat chain that is maybe a few feet long on a dog in a litter filled yard with no grass and no dog house and no nothing. The only human interaction is for people screaming at them. And yes, treating a dog like this can/will make them mean. I spent the weekend in my aunts backyard watching the treatment of these dogs - there are no ignorant assumptions about what I saw about the containment methods used by these idiots. Again - it sounds like your dogs are your family....totally different. You have to realize that not everyone treats bully breeds with love, therefore they can be dangerous. My concern was for the dogs and if they are not being mistreated, I absolutely support them being in the neighborhood....but if they are not, well, that's a different story.


----------



## kevin bradley

Jesus Christ. Show me ONE freaking responsible owner who CHAINS their Dog?

I'll show you 100,000 who aren't responsible. I cannot believe I have to even state this.



I'm laughing in freaking anger right now. Dude, I drive by about 100 Dogs/week living on chains for 24 hours a day, living horrid lives. 

So you are the 1/100000000 who does it right? Great, lets make sure YOUR rights aren't touched. 


This freaking pisses me off. Bad. I've been out here over 2 years now and I have to say this pissed me off more than any other post I've seen. 

I'm out for awhile.


----------



## DaneMama

I have to agree with Kevin. No dog should be chained. And that's not the "furmommy" in me speaking, that's the humane dog owner in me speaking. Not every dog that is chained is aggressive, but regardless of the reason...they shouldn't be chained in the first place. Dogs can and do harm themselves on chains...some times dogs even manage to strangle themselves to death. 

If someone is that worried about them getting out, build a proper enclosure for them. One that is able to keep them in. We have spent thousands on providing a proper enclosure for Shiloh, the master escape artist. She has a full acre to run on now. I would never trade this sanctuary of hers for a chain around her neck.


----------



## cprcheetah

DaneMama said:


> I have to agree with Kevin. No dog should be chained. And that's not the "furmommy" in me speaking, that's the humane dog owner in me speaking. Not every dog that is chained is aggressive, but regardless of the reason...they shouldn't be chained in the first place. Dogs can and do harm themselves on chains...some times dogs even manage to strangle themselves to death.
> 
> If someone is that worried about them getting out, build a proper enclosure for them. One that is able to keep them in. We have spent thousands on providing a proper enclosure for Shiloh, the master escape artist. She has a full acre to run on now. I would never trade this sanctuary of hers for a chain around her neck.


I have to agree, I totally disagree with chaining a dog. I have worked for Vets for 20+ years and I can't even remember how many dogs we've seen (because it's been that many) who have injuries due to chaining, had a labrador hang itself on it's chain....their 14 year old daughter came home from school and found the dog, have seen dogs break their legs, chains embedded in their necks, chains cutting off legs/feet.....how is that humane? It breaks my heart when I hear/see dogs that are chained.


----------



## Donna Little

I live with this all around me and I can assure you none of the dogs I see chained have any quality of life either. I'm sure there are times when a dog can be safely tethered out if they can't be trusted off leash and there's no fence. The owner IMO should be supervising them though. 
I managed the Petfinder site for my local animal control for 2 yrs. I was there usually for less than an hour a day to get photos and info for the site. In that length of time I really can't say how many dead or maimed dogs were brought in due to chaining. No telling how many more were brought in when I wasn't there to see it. I've seen them strangled from crawling under (and getting stuck) or jumping over a nearby fence, chains wrapped around legs that now needed amputating, around their mid sections so they had to be put down, and sometimes mauled by a stray dog. I've seen them dead or in need of euthanasia due to getting tangled on something and spending a scorching day in the sun unable to reach shade or water. And of course the opposite when it was freezing cold and they were tangled away from their shelter and were brought in on the brink of death because they spent the day in a freezing rain. Too many things can happen to a chained dog in the course of just one day for me to ever be okay with it. 
I have neighbors just like the people you're describing. I LOVE Pitbulls. I think they are fantastic dogs. If I didn't have small dogs I'd have one in a heartbeat. All of the dogs owned by my neighbors spend their short lives chained in the backyard with no interaction other than being yelled at also. Last year two of their dogs got loose and tried to attack me. I was able to get inside my house and they continued to try to get to me through my glass doors. It was terrifying. Needless to say both were picked up by AC and put down. They were so aggressive they had to be pepper sprayed in my yard in order for the officers to catch them. It was awful. I can't imagine those dogs would have had that temperament if they'd lived inside being beloved pets.


----------



## chowder

Many counties in NC have passed laws banning the chaining of dogs outside. Our county has decided to do it on a town by town basis (wimps!)

Unchain Your Dog.org | Improve Dog Chaining or Tethering Laws/Ordinances

Perhaps something like that could be started in your county? Or maybe it already is being started? I know that petitions were set up around here in all the local Petsmarts and vet offices and it didn't take long before it became law, even though many people objected (those that chained their dogs).


----------



## minnieme

I can't even imagine chaining Minnie up outside while I'm not home. O_O She is allowed to be on a tie-out with me outside while I'm doing yard work but NEVER unsupervised. Even when I am watching her, she often will get herself hog-tied or wrapped around a bush or something. Since we rent at the moment, putting up a fence is not an option..... so she is ALWAYS either supervised while outside or safely contained inside.


----------



## Caty M

Tessie has to be on a tie-out when she's outside.. since I found out the little 10lb brat can climb my 6' wood slat fence. :suspicious: I am always either outside with them when she is or in the kitchen which has a sliding glass door out to the backyard where she is 100% in my sight. 

When I am not home Tess is always crated cause I'm scared about leg breaks.


----------



## xellil

my neighbors kept a chow chained to a car axle. Practically everyone in the neighborhood kept calling animal control, so they made him build a pen. He put the dog in a pen about the size of a crate, and his response to all the poop was to throw something on it, not scoop it outside the pen. 

The chow was apparently still on a chain in the pen, and one day hanged himself by trying to jump out.

that was two years ago. I swore I wouldn't call animal control on him again, because it made it worse. Two days ago, I see he has a pit bull chained to a tree in the yard. I am thinking I should just steal the dog. The problem is his grandkids and their friends are a bunch of hooligans, and hang out in the street at all hours. Not sure how I will go about it. In the end, I think it would be better to shoot the dog in the head rather than let him have the same fate as the chow. I will discuss with the neighbors to see what to do.


----------



## Maxy24

But here's my question about banning chaining of dogs. Do you think these dogs are going to be treated any better in the house? Or maybe they'll build them a little 4x4 pen in the yard, is that any better? I do think something needs to be done about dogs being neglected because I do think outdoor dogs account for MANY of the dog bites, but I don't think banning chaining is going to be the answer.


----------



## magicre

i read these accountings and it just never ends.

i've become numb.

and, lisa....it's not just some people. it's many people. 

ignorant and stupid and cruel.


----------



## Liz

I have to agree. Chaining produces terrible reactions in many, many dogs. Chaining that is being bashed is not the same as putting your dog on a tie out while you are on the porch with friends or gardening, etc. If my dog is not exceptionally well trained to remain on my property they are on a tie out when we are out front. They are never staked out alone and definately never all day. A most dogs living ona chain will become territorial which can lead to aggression. It is not the dogs fault and no one is blaming the ddog. Irresponsible people, again are at fault. I am glad you are responsible in how your restrain your pets when necessary but your dogs are also exercised, trained and have comapnionship with you. I daresay that is not the case for the majority of chained dogs.


----------



## RachelsaurusRexU

monkeys23 said:


> Yay shitty bybs.
> Yeah they sound like craptastic owners and I'm sure their dogs have crap genetics.... HOWEVER! A chained dog is NOT a dangerous dog. WTF.... its a frigging method of containment that is responsible and great if done properly. THe problem here is not the chaining.... the problem is shitty owners and crap bred dogs of questionable genetics being bred for a quick buck.
> 
> And I'm sorry using "pit" or "pitty" or "pibble" just f'ing makes me cringe. They are probably crap bred American Bullies. Lemme guess, heavy set chunky, tough looking "pits"?
> 
> The only real "pit bull" is the APBT and most wouldn't know one if it bit them on the ass. Which they wouldn't because they are fantabulous with people... not so much with dogs or other animals, but you won't find a better family companion for humans. If its not okay with people because of bad genetics, then I'm sorry it needs a dirt nap. That is not normal or acceptable for the breed. However dog aggression and high prey drive is normal and expected.
> 
> There's a lot of b.s. and paper hanging where people claim their purple ribbon whatever crap bred Am Bullies are APBT. They aren't. Know your lines. Know your reputable dog people. It takes research to know whats normal and on the level in ANY BREED OF DOG.
> 
> These are the kind of dogs that come in grinning and loving on people after being shot, having the crap kicked, out of them, or whatever else. They are awful "guard" dogs because a good one will help the creeps find your stuff and then trot out with them. They are not one person dogs, they love everyone.
> 
> Frankly IMO, both the people who are your neighbors and the foo-foo "furmommy" types who think its all "how you raise them" do equal damage to the bully breeds (APBT, AST, SBT, etc.) despite being on opposite ends of the spectrum. I hate that they are targeted by abusive douches and I hate seeing them set up to fail by people who think all dogs need packs b.s. Its not how you raise them, they were created to be good buddies to their humans, hunt with them, and kill other dogs. The latter is ugly, but hey it created one of the best companions for people ever so I'd say thats certainly quite something. No one feared Petey would eat the Little Rascals....
> 
> And I chose not to own an APBT because my life is too dog heavy. It was the right decision. Plus its given me time to get to know people, the lines I like, and I will be able to pick out the perfect pup when I'm ready.
> 
> I wish more people would take the time to research and be RESPONSIBLE with these wonderful dogs. They deserve far better than the gangsters and willfully ignorant neer do wells give them.
> 
> I have Northern breeds.... They are either tied out at my moms or crated inside at my apt when I can't supervise. I'd rather have a safe, happy, healthy, woo-ing silly dog than a dead, injured, shot, lost, etc. dog. Just saying. Of course I also run 5 miles a day with them and work them in PP and take them most everywhere with me.
> 
> It really irks me that ignorant assumptions about containment methods could jeopardize my right to keep my beloved animals safe by leading to bad legislation. Dogs that aren't properly managed/contained can also lead to BSL, which sucks for everyone.


This rant confuses the crap out of me for so many reasons...

But mostly, I don't understand the whole bit about referring to pit bulls as "pitties", etc. I use those terms all the time. First of all, I find that when speaking to people who are ignorant or have misconceptions about these dogs, using "pit bull" or "American Pit Bull Terrier" automatically causes some to shut down and back right out of the conversation. Using cutesy terms like "pibbles" or "pitties" can help to ease those misconceptions and keep people interested in the conversation, which may ultimately lead to them learning new and positive things about these dogs.

Second, my world is NOT one of purebred, papered, working "the only real pit bull" American Pit Bull Terriers. My world is one of rescuing dogs with no backgrounds, no histories, no papers, no specific "lines" who have been dumped, abused, neglected and forgotten. I certainly can't refer to those dogs as something that I cannot prove they are. To me, those dogs are "pit bulls", "pitties", "pibbles", "pits", "pit mixes" and any other generic or cutesy term that I find suitable or that may help a good dog find a good home. 

And I'm certainly not going to refer to my own dogs as "pit bull type dogs" or "pit bull mixes" every time I mention them in conversation. To me, they're "pit bulls" ("real" to you or not) or "pitties". And I absolutely, when speaking affectionately about my dogs amongst other loving pit bull owners, will refer to them as "PIBBLES". I would rather be THAT type of pit bull guardian than the type whose poor dogs live on heavy chains, or amongst piles of trash having litter after litter, or worse.

Why does that seem to irritate you so badly?


----------



## Donna Little

Maxy24 said:


> But here's my question about banning chaining of dogs. Do you think these dogs are going to be treated any better in the house? Or maybe they'll build them a little 4x4 pen in the yard, is that any better? I do think something needs to be done about dogs being neglected because I do think outdoor dogs account for MANY of the dog bites, but I don't think banning chaining is going to be the answer.


If someone is a crappy pet owner they're just gonna be a crappy pet owner no matter where they house their dogs. I think the issue for a lot of folks that don't agree with chaining is the danger it puts a dog in. Like the things I listed in my earlier post. If someone keeps their dog in a tiny pen out in the backyard with no human affection and no exercise that makes them just as crappy as someone who chains IMO and they shouldn't own a dog. But at least the dog will be offered some protection from the many horrible things that can happen with chaining. Still a miserable existence and probably the best that a caring person can hope for is that the crappy owner will tire of feeding a dog they don't love and give it a chance to have a good life with someone else. Not likely to happen but at least one can hope.....


----------



## Muttkip

So does that make me a crappy dog owner since one my dogs does live on a chain?


----------



## hmbutler

well that depends. if your dog lives unsupervised, for the vast majority of its day, on a chain that could lead to it being choked/tangled/maimed without you knowing, or end up stuck and separated from food/water/shelter... then yeah, it kinda does. However if you are responsible about it then no, you're probably a lot like monkeys23 who also ties a dog, but by the sounds of it its a completely different situation to the one being discussed and criticised here


----------



## catahoulamom

Muttkip said:


> So does that make me a crappy dog owner since one my dogs does live on a chain?


I'll be the jerk to say it, if your dog LIVES on a chain, as in 24/7, doesn't have shelter, doesn't get walked, given attention... then yes, in my opinion you would be a poor dog owner. I'm assuming that since you are on Dog Food Chat, that you don't mean that you dog really "lives" on a chain. At least I hope not...

And I'd also just like to say that I have a *pitty.* A *crap bred* "bully"-style pit bull. Some thug in the middle of Overtown had a litter and sold the puppies for $100 each, Rambo was one of those. And he's also a blue-fawn brindle. I didn't buy him, but some other low-life douchebag did, and then after he contracted parvo they dumped him off at Banfield, the vet at the PetSmart I used to work at. I don't agree with how he was bred, breeding for color (blues), or breeding "crappy" dogs period, but he's a great f***ing dog. I would not trade him for the best bred American Pit Bull Terrier in the world. Just because a dog is not bred well, or isn't the breed standard doesn't mean that they should be condemned. He lives happily with three other dogs and three cats. He is a certified Service Dog and loves male dogs, female dogs, puppies, kittens, children, you name it.


----------



## destinoscelgo

IMO there is NOTHING wrong with leaving a dog out on a chain...im sorry...let me rephrase..a proper chain setup. Which to me would include proper shelter, water, food and a toy or something...oh and also I would make sure it was in a place where I knew he couldnt choke himself on something stupid...to me...that is being responsible. Some dogs do MUCH better outside on a chain setup than being in their crate for however many hours of the day. I would personally love to keep one of my dogs outside since I think he would be much happier out there than in the crate, but i cannot because I do not have the proper yard to make that work out.

**also something I forgot, is many responsible owners who chain their dogs, still exercise the dog, spend time with it etc 
Unfortunatly there are too many irresponsible people out in the world that it ruins things for the rest of us.


----------



## destinoscelgo

sorry but to stay on topic...it sounds like they are bunch of backyard breeders and dont know how to take care of the dogs in the first place.


----------



## hmbutler

destinoscelgo said:


> IMO there is NOTHING wrong with leaving a dog out on a chain...im sorry...let me rephrase..a proper chain setup. Which to me would include proper shelter, water, food and a toy or something...oh and also I would make sure it was in a place where I knew he couldnt choke himself on something stupid...to me...that is being responsible. Some dogs do MUCH better outside on a chain setup than being in their crate for however many hours of the day. I would personally love to keep one of my dogs outside since I think he would be much happier out there than in the crate, but i cannot because I do not have the proper yard to make that work out.
> 
> **also something I forgot, is many responsible owners who chain their dogs, still exercise the dog, spend time with it etc
> Unfortunatly there are too many irresponsible people out in the world that it ruins things for the rest of us.


exactly, it just has to be done properly, but idiots don't think that far ahead and consider the dangers of it before just chaining their dog up all day. or they do think of the dangers, but think its a reasonable risk to take... thankfully my yard is fully enclosed and has a secure gate, so there is zero need for my dog to be chained, he's go absolutely nuts if he was tied up (done it once while we were moving furniture and had to have the gate open, he wailed and jumped around the entire time, and it was only about 5 minutes!)


----------



## Donna Little

Muttkip said:


> So does that make me a crappy dog owner since one my dogs does live on a chain?


I agree completely with hmbutler. Allowing a dog that NEEDS to run for exercise (while staying safe) on a nice long tie out under supervision, not a problem. All day, every day, 24/7, I don't agree with. I don't know your situation or which catagory you fall in so it's a little hard to say. I would personally never leave a dog unsupervised on a chain. 
In addition to the horrible things I've seen in animal control I also found out (after the fact) that my ex-husband came home and found his Husky near dead and totally tangled in the cable he had him tied out on. I had no idea he had a dog chained or I'd have definitely had a thing or 2 to say about it. That dog recovered but his Rottie was missing. She was allowed to stay outside loose all the time because she "never ran away." Great plan. The next day he found her laying out in the woods unable to stand up. The vet said she had obviously gotten tangled up with the chained dog and she'd had the cable wrapped so tightly around her midsection that her organs had suffered damage and she had to be put down. She had bruising around her belly so it wasn't hard to put 2 and 2 together. Not pretty and not a great way to die.


----------



## Muttkip

Julie said:


> I'll be the jerk to say it, if your dog LIVES on a chain, as in 24/7, doesn't have shelter, doesn't get walked, given attention... then yes, in my opinion you would be a poor dog owner. I'm assuming that since you are on Dog Food Chat, that you don't mean that you dog really "lives" on a chain. At least I hope not...
> 
> And I'd also just like to say that I have a *pitty.* A *crap bred* "bully"-style pit bull. Some thug in the middle of Overtown had a litter and sold the puppies for $100 each, Rambo was one of those. And he's also a blue-fawn brindle. I didn't buy him, but some other low-life douchebag did, and then after he contracted parvo they dumped him off at Banfield, the vet at the PetSmart I used to work at. I don't agree with how he was bred, breeding for color (blues), or breeding "crappy" dogs period, but he's a great f***ing dog. I would not trade him for the best bred American Pit Bull Terrier in the world. Just because a dog is not bred well, or isn't the breed standard doesn't mean that they should be condemned. He lives happily with three other dogs and three cats. He is a certified Service Dog and loves male dogs, female dogs, puppies, kittens, children, you name it.


Yes he does live outside on a chain 24/7. But he's fed 2 cups of food a day, water tub cleaned out once a week with bleach, fresh water every few days. He runs 5 miles a day, swims when it's not cold and does weight pulling....well this was his last year doing it seeing how he is older.

Here's his set-up at my old house before things went to hell and I moved out he still has the same set-up basically but now has more shade trees.










And here's a better look at his chain.









My Westie that was re-homed chilling on my Beagle's chain-spot









I have A LOT of time and money wrapped up in this chain spot, and it's stupid that people think I'm cruel because my dog lives outside, I live on unfenced 5 acres and I'm very lucky my boyfriend's parents let me keep him here on his chain.


----------



## catahoulamom

Muttkip, that is a beautiful yard for a dog to run and play in. It looks as it is kept clean, and it is very obvious that you love your dog very much and feed him well. He is a very handsome beagle. I prefer to see dogs living in a home with a family, but your dog does not look to be neglected, I would not consider you a cruel owner. I do hope he gets walks and mental stimulation off the chain though, I'm thinking he does after seeing those super beefy, muscular pictures of him you posted before. I hope you change his water more often than every couple days.

I think your dog is lucky to have an owner that does the best you can for him.


----------



## CorgiPaws

Muttkip said:


> So does that make me a crappy dog owner since one my dogs does live on a chain?





Muttkip said:


> Yes he does live outside on a chain 24/7. But he's fed 2 cups of food a day, water tub cleaned out once a week with bleach, fresh water every few days. He runs 5 miles a day, swims when it's not cold and does weight pulling....well this was his last year doing it seeing how he is older.
> 
> Here's his set-up at my old house before things went to hell and I moved out he still has the same set-up basically but now has more shade trees.
> 
> I have A LOT of time and money wrapped up in this chain spot, and it's stupid that people think I'm cruel because my dog lives outside, I live on unfenced 5 acres and I'm very lucky my boyfriend's parents let me keep him here on his chain.


I'll be honest. 
Based on everything you said....
In my book , you're a pretty sucky dog owner.

I'm sorry, but living on a CHAIN 24/7 is no life for any animal, let alone a pack creature like a dog.
It is incredibly irresponsible to leave dogs unattended outside all day, especially chained where they can hurt themselves.


----------



## Caty M

I'm sorry.. but I do think it's cruel to keep a dog housed outside 24/7. Dogs are family pets, social animals...


----------



## Caty M

Plus... dog water should be fresh daily.. especially if it's outside.


----------



## Chocx2

That is very upsetting I deal with that type of mentality where I live and work, I have to carry a way to defend myself from attack at all times. Breading goes on constantly I know people have freedom and rights but when they do damage to the totality of pet ownership they should be jailed....Sorry sometimes I would like to put a little justice on this type of DMB AS


----------



## Muttkip

PuppyPaws said:


> I'll be honest.
> Based on everything you said....
> In my book , you're a pretty sucky dog owner.
> 
> I'm sorry, but living on a CHAIN 24/7 is no life for any animal, let alone a pack creature like a dog.


Ummmm did you not read the part where I said he's off the chain EVERY single DAY to run 5 miles? If I'm such a sucky dog owner then why does my 9 year old Beagle have a clean bill of health, is more muscular then any dog I know and has no aggression issues, oh did I mention he's a retired hunting dog with his CGC as well.

Also since you decided to go that far, you also don't know my situation as well. I am living in a state with no contact to my druggie mom whom is in rehab in another state, I'm shunned by the rest of my family and lost everything in the last few months, so I'm sorry that the fact that my boyfriend's family took me in and ALLOWED me to bring my dog with me even though they didn't have to makes me a bad pet owner. He's UTD on ALL on his shots, he goes EVERYWHERE with me and I have literally held that dog for hours spilling my heart out to him because of everything I've been through these past few months, makes me a sucky dog owner. Besides if you knew my dog you'd know he HATES being inside, he paces, whines, bays and bays some more until he is back outside. So yeah let me tell you he's SUCH a neglected dog.

Also explain to me how a 75 foot zipline is cruel?


----------



## CorgiPaws

Muttkip said:


> Ummmm did you not read the part where I said he's off the chain EVERY single DAY to run 5 miles? If I'm such a sucky dog owner then why does my 9 year old Beagle have a clean bill of health, is more muscular then any dog I know and has no aggression issues, oh did I mention he's a retired hunting dog with his CGC as well.


Yeah, I did. 
I'm sorry, but in my book if your dog lives on a chain, save for an hour or two of exercise.... no, you're not a very good dog owner. I don't care what titles your dog has, or what kind of work he's done. He's chained the vast majority of the time and that's enough to downright piss me off.


----------



## Caty M

Muttkip said:


> Ummmm did you not read the part where I said he's off the chain EVERY single DAY to run 5 miles? If I'm such a sucky dog owner then why does my 9 year old Beagle have a clean bill of health, is more muscular then any dog I know and has no aggression issues, oh did I mention he's a retired hunting dog with his CGC as well.


Doesn't matter if he's off the chain to run. Dogs need to snuggle with their family, be close to them, heck my dogs sleep in my bed, haha. There is a lot of bonding to be had just sitting on the couch using your dog as a pillow. I doubt you are outside with your dog 10+ hours a day like I am inside with mine.


----------



## Scarlett_O'

PuppyPaws said:


> I'll be honest.
> Based on everything you said....
> In my book , you're a pretty sucky dog owner.
> 
> I'm sorry, but living on a CHAIN 24/7 is no life for any animal, let alone a pack creature like a dog.
> It is incredibly irresponsible to leave dogs unattended outside all day, especially chained where they can hurt themselves.





Caty M said:


> I'm sorry.. but I do think it's cruel to keep a dog housed outside 24/7. Dogs are family pets, social animals...


I VERY much so agree with both Linsey and Caty!! 
I cant even imagine had we kept our Basset out side 24/7!!:frown: 
She was VERY much so a FAMILY dog who only deserved to be inside with us!!




GAAAAAWD this thread is making me more and more POed then the annoying neighborhood OUTSIDE dog who is barking!!


----------



## Chocx2

I know you exercise your dog, give them water and great food, but is he a pet or something you own? I think that is the difference here.


----------



## Muttkip

PuppyPaws said:


> Yeah, I did.
> I'm sorry, but in my book if your dog lives on a chain, save for an hour or two of exercise.... no, you're not a very good dog owner. I don't care what titles your dog has, or what kind of work he's done. He's chained the vast majority of the time and that's enough to downright piss me off.


So I should allow my hound dog to roam free, because it so damn cruel to chain a dog instead of being PROPERLY contained?


----------



## Caty M

No.... you should keep him indoors like a FAMILY MEMBER... until you want to exercise him.


----------



## DaneMama

Wow. To me a dog is a companion, a part of the family. They live in the same house I do. They sleep in my room and even in my bed. The snuggle with us on the couch when watching a movie. The thought of dogs being left outside, chained up...while the humans chill inside just makes me angry. I'm not saying that's what happens with everyone who chains their dogs outside...but I think the vast majority of those who do chain their dogs, leave them out there 24/7. 

Whats the damn point of having a dog if they aren't a part of your life? Feed em some food, change their water, give em a dog house. NOT enough. 

And instead of chaining your dog outside, why not make the fence secure enough to house the dog to NOT be tied up? If you invest a lot of money into a chain setup, why not invest the money to secure a fence? That way there is a guarantee your dogs wont strangle themselves, because even doing it "right" still gives them the opportunity to get snagged on anything (the thought of dogs hanging themselves floods my mind...). 

I'll be honest...since moving up here on acreage, our dogs are "outside" dogs. But not because they HAVE to be, rather they WANT to be. They spend most of their days outside, rolling in the dirt sunbathing. Not snoozing on the couch like they did when they lived in the city. They still come inside at night, snuggle in bed with us if they want to (downright demand from the sunggledanes LOL). That all being said...we MADE a secure yard for them because I do want them to be safe and secure outside. I wouldn't even dream of putting them all out on chains which is just unacceptable to me.


----------



## Muttkip

Chocx2 said:


> I know you exercise your dog, give them water and great food, but is he a pet or something you own? I think that is the difference here.


You know nothing about me or my dog or what me and him have been through together, I have bond with him most people will never understand, just because my dog lives outside and is on a chain DOES NOT make me a sucky owner AT ALL. That dog is my best friend and does everything with me, the only difference is he sleeps outside in a warm custom built doghouse and not in the house like everyone else's dogs.


----------



## Muttkip

DaneMama said:


> Wow. To me a dog is a companion, a part of the family. They live in the same house I do. They sleep in my room and even in my bed. The snuggle with us on the couch when watching a movie. The thought of dogs being left outside, chained up...while the humans chill inside just makes me angry. I'm not saying that's what happens with everyone who chains their dogs outside...but I think the vast majority of those who do chain their dogs, leave them out there 24/7.
> 
> Whats the damn point of having a dog if they aren't a part of your life? Feed em some food, change their water, give em a dog house. NOT enough.
> 
> And instead of chaining your dog outside, why not make the fence secure enough to house the dog to NOT be tied up? If you invest a lot of money into a chain setup, why not invest the money to secure a fence? That way there is a guarantee your dogs wont strangle themselves, because even doing it "right" still gives them the opportunity to get snagged on anything (the thought of dogs hanging themselves floods my mind...).
> 
> I'll be honest...since moving up here on acreage, our dogs are "outside" dogs. But not because they HAVE to be, rather they WANT to be. They spend most of their days outside, rolling in the dirt sunbathing. Not snoozing on the couch like they did when they lived in the city. They still come inside at night, snuggle in bed with us if they want to (downright demand from the sunggledanes LOL). That all being said...we MADE a secure yard for them because I do want them to be safe and secure outside. I wouldn't even dream of putting them all out on chains which is just unacceptable to me.


Well let's see he digs, climbs and chews his way out of fences, it's NOT my property. And this is the SAFEST way for me to contain my dog on a property that again does not belong to me.


----------



## DaneMama

Muttkip said:


> You know nothing about me or my dog or what me and him have been through together, I have bond with him most people will never understand, just because my dog lives outside and is on a chain DOES NOT make me a sucky owner AT ALL. That dog is my best friend and does everything with me, the only difference is he sleeps outside in a warm custom built doghouse and not in the house like everyone else's dogs.


BUT WHY??? 

Why do you keep him outside all alone? I need to understand this logic to even accept it.

BTW Chocx2 couldn't have said it ANY better.


----------



## CorgiPaws

Muttkip said:


> So I should allow my hound dog to roam free, because it so damn cruel to chain a dog instead of being PROPERLY contained?


Did anyone say that? No. 
There's nothing wrong with using a tie out responsibly when you're home. 
There's a LOT of things wrong with a dog living on a chain in your yard. Is this yard properly fenced? 
You could come home to a dog who cinched it's foot off, strangled himself, got caught on something and dehydrated, or was attacked by another animal. 
Leaving a dog outside unattended and chained is downright irresponsible. Plain. And. Simple.


----------



## Caty M

Muttkip said:


> You know nothing about me or my dog or what me and him have been through together, I have bond with him most people will never understand, just because my dog lives outside and is on a chain DOES NOT make me a sucky owner AT ALL. That dog is my best friend and does everything with me, the only difference is he sleeps outside in a warm custom built doghouse and not in the house like everyone else's dogs.


Yes... and that is a pretty HUGE difference. Again, dogs are SOCIAL ANIMALS.. you never see your dog miserable outside, dogs are not expressive when it comes to unhappy emotions and pain. All you see is the happy greeting you get when someone finally comes outside to pay attention to the poor animal. What is wrong with simply letting your dog indoors? Just doing that simple thing even if it's crated at night, means your dog is spending a LOT more passive time with you. Not to mention that you live in an UNSECURED property.. so any wildlife, coyote or whatever you have in your area.. can walk up and do whatever it wants to your dog. A beagle is probably a pretty tasty dinner to a hungry coyote, wolf or bear.


----------



## DaneMama

Muttkip said:


> Well let's see he digs, climbs and chews his way out of fences, it's NOT my property. And this is the SAFEST way for me to contain my dog on a property that again does not belong to me.


So maybe work with your dog on WHY he's doing these things instead of just covering up the issue? Behavior modification is a beautiful thing. We have an escape artist...she opens doors, windows, scales fences, digs, etc. But I've worked long and hard with her to help her cope with NOT roaming. It works wonders....


----------



## Muttkip

PuppyPaws said:


> Did anyone say that? No.
> There's nothing wrong with using a tie out responsibly when you're home.
> There's a LOT of things wrong with a dog living on a chain in your yard. Is this yard properly fenced?
> You could come home to a dog who cinched it's foot off, strangled himself, got caught on something and dehydrated, or was attacked by another animal.
> Leaving a dog outside unattended and chained is downright irresponsible. Plain. And. Simple.


Again this is NOT my property and I can't fence it in. And just because you don't agree with the way I keep my beloved dog does NOT make me a sucky owner my dog gets better care then most indoor dogs I know.

Does this look like such a cruel neglected dog to you?


----------



## Chocx2

Ok, I'm sorry for your situation, maybe I'm miss judging you, and maybe your doing the best you can with what you have, and if that's the case good luck to you and I'm glad your keeping your pets together so when you get a place you can bring them home with you, good luck...

I guess having them this way is better than giving your friends to animal control and never knowing where they are, or what could happen to them in this day and time.


----------



## Scarlett_O'

DaneMama said:


> I'll be honest...since moving up here on acreage, our dogs are "outside" dogs. But not because they HAVE to be, rather they WANT to be. They spend most of their days outside, rolling in the dirt sunbathing. Not snoozing on the couch like they did when they lived in the city. They still come inside at night, snuggle in bed with us if they want to (downright demand from the sunggledanes LOL). That all being said...we MADE a secure yard for them because I do want them to be safe and secure outside. I wouldn't even dream of putting them all out on chains which is just unacceptable to me.


That is how my boys are as well!:smile: We have a fenced, covered, patio and "dog area"(gravel "go" spot) and 2 doors that open to outside...those doors are open pretty much ALL day.......all 3 boys are out pretty much ALL DAY!!LOL BUT they are ALLOWED in when they want to be(unless Im cleaning)and the doors are never both closed if there is a dog out side without a human!:wink:



Muttkip said:


> You know nothing about me or my dog or what me and him have been through together, I have bond with him most people will never understand, just because my dog lives outside and is on a chain DOES NOT make me a sucky owner AT ALL. That dog is my best friend and does everything with me, the only difference is he sleeps outside in a warm custom built doghouse and not in the house like everyone else's dogs.


HAHAHAHHAHAHHA....
Sorry...but your relationship is something NONE of us would understand??!!
You VERY much so underestimate your fellow human being's experiences!


And yes, it does make you a sucky owner....period end of story.


----------



## Caty M

Muttkip said:


> Again this is NOT my property and I can't fence it in. And just because you don't agree with the way I keep my beloved dog does NOT make me a sucky owner my dog gets better care then most indoor dogs I know.
> 
> Does this look like such a cruel neglected dog to you?
> 
> Beau - YouTube


Um, just because he is getting exercise doesn't mean he lives in an appropriate manner. You already said he runs 5 miles a day. That's great. What the video doesn't show is him bored and lonely all day while the humans have fun and time together indoors without him.


----------



## CorgiPaws

DaneMama said:


> I'll be honest...since moving up here on acreage, our dogs are "outside" dogs. But not because they HAVE to be, rather they WANT to be. They spend most of their days outside, rolling in the dirt sunbathing. Not snoozing on the couch like they did when they lived in the city. They still come inside at night, snuggle in bed with us if they want to (downright demand from the sunggledanes LOL). That all being said...we MADE a secure yard for them because I do want them to be safe and secure outside. I wouldn't even dream of putting them all out on chains which is just unacceptable to me.


Yes, there's nothing wrong with dogs spending a lot of time outside. I grew up with a Beagle that was totally content being outside for long hours. 
BUT... the BIGGEST difference... is I know you do not leave your dogs outside when you're not home. That is a HUGE deal to me. 
Plus, yours make a peep, and they come inside. 
And they have indirect supervision in the form of someone being HOME when they are out there. 



Muttkip said:


> just because my dog lives outside and is on a chain DOES NOT make me a sucky owner AT ALL


It is the things that people do with their pets that make them sucky or not. 
Chaining an animal outside all day certainly falls into the category of "sucky"
No one claimed you didn't love your dog. 
Though I can't possibly wrap my head around chaining a dog I loved outside all the time. POOR DOG. 
And you honestly believe that you having a bond with your dog is something NONE of us would ever understand? HA. Freaking try me. 



Muttkip said:


> Well let's see he digs, climbs and chews his way out of fences, it's NOT my property. And this is the SAFEST way for me to contain my dog on a property that again does not belong to me.


Hmm, signs of anxiety, boredom, insecurity... sounds like someone's dog needs more attention, mental stimulation, and training.....and perhaps companionship. 


I will bow out of this conversation now. It makes my freaking blood boil. I don't like to point fingers and tell people what they should be doing, but the topic of chaining dogs outside all freaking day weather you're home or not is not a matter of "what kind of collar should I buy" or "oh no, you crated your dog for a couple hours too long!" It's a matter of the absolute quality or lack thereof of life for an animal. It pisses me off beyond words to see living, breathing creatures treated like items. Lawn ornaments.


----------



## Muttkip

Caty M said:


> Yes... and that is a pretty HUGE difference. Again, dogs are SOCIAL ANIMALS.. you never see your dog miserable outside, dogs are not expressive when it comes to unhappy emotions and pain. All you see is the happy greeting you get when someone finally comes outside to pay attention to the poor animal. What is wrong with simply letting your dog indoors? Just doing that simple thing even if it's crated at night, means your dog is spending a LOT more passive time with you. Not to mention that you live in an UNSECURED property.. so any wildlife, coyote or whatever you have in your area.. can walk up and do whatever it wants to your dog. A beagle is probably a pretty tasty dinner to a hungry coyote, wolf or bear.


Again you really don't know my situation at all. Even if I WANTED him in the house, he's NOT allowed to be in the house, and for the last freaking time it's NOT my property, and even if I did have the money and permission to fence in the 5 acres he'd still be on the zip-line. And there are not Bears or wolves in my area at all nor are there coyotes.


----------



## hmbutler

I think muttkip is doing better than some "chainers" seeing as though it does look relatively safer, with the zipline etc, and gives a bit more freedom to move and appears to offer less likelihood of tangling. I would say you've done the best with what you have, if your boyfriends parents will not allow the dog inside (I was staying with my mum for a few months and Duke was not allowed inside, due to my step-dad being very ill, his exposure to possible infections/sicknesses must be kept to an absolute minimum, plus he isn't as strong as he use to be and duke could quite easily knock him down in an fit of excitement)

And my dog lives outside primarily - he sleeps in his kennel outside, he is fed outside, and he is outside when we are not home. In essence, he is outside in the time when many people would crate or chain their dogs, but he is unrestricted. He gets walks before I go to work, and played with when I get home and after we've had dinner he comes inside to hang with us (at this time he still doesn't get free roam of the house - he'd eat Nala's food, and her kitty litter, and destory everything else he can find... he has a knack of picking anything he knows isn't his up off the floor to chew on lol no matter how many toys he has access to, like a small child wanting the remote or a mobile phone lol - so he hangs out with us in the lounge room while we watch tv or a movie or whatever). He doesn't get 10+ hours indoors with us, but we're only home for about 5 before going to bed (with two adults and a cat already in the bed, there isnt much room for an over-excited 70lb labrador haha). I don't think I'm a bad mumma for having an outside dog, though some people here may not agree with me  but I love him with all my heart and he gets lots of love and attention and socialisation as well as the necessities he needs. Having said that I don't think I'd be able to chain him up out there, he has free roam of the area and he loves it, I couldn't take that away from him.

This chaining issue sure has hijacked this thread haha


----------



## Caty M

Muttkip said:


> Again you really don't know my situation at all. Even if I WANTED him in the house, he's NOT allowed to be in the house, and for the last freaking time it's NOT my property, and even if I did have the money and permission to fence in the 5 acres he'd still be on the zip-line. And there are not Bears or wolves in my area at all nor are there coyotes.


There are no coyotes? Where do you live?

There is a REASON there are chain laws in a growing number of areas... because it's CRUEL and WRONG. Maybe you should find other living arrangements for you or your dog. Maybe if it was temporary.. but you stated it was the LAST YEAR that your dog was going to be outside because of age... meaning the dog has been chained up for a LONG time. Part of having a pet is making sacrifices in other areas of your life in order to be able to keep said animal.


----------



## Caty M

Sorry, but your introduction thread said you're from Georgia. Guess what, there are coyotes in Georgia.


----------



## Chocx2

That's the bread, they love to run, try some tracking or hunting...


----------



## Caty M

GON.com - All About Coyotes - Georgia Outdoor News



> Coyotes have invaded Georgia by storm — and the conquest only took a few decades. In 1969, coyote populations were confirmed by hunters, trappers or road-kills in only about 23 counties. Today, coyotes call all 159 counties home.





> And they are not finicky eaters, nearly everything is on the menu. Coyotes will eat whatever they can catch, including, but not limited to: rabbits, mice and other rodents, grasshoppers, watermelon, persimmons, deer (mostly fawns), dog food off your back porch, house cats, *small dogs*, squirrels, oppossums, corn, chickens, raccoons, snakes, berries and birds — and they aren’t above feasting on roadkills or scavenging through household garbage.


----------



## Muttkip

Caty M said:


> There are no coyotes? Where do you live?
> 
> There is a REASON there are chain laws in a growing number of areas... because it's CRUEL and WRONG. Maybe you should find other living arrangements for you or your dog. Maybe if it was temporary.. but you stated it was the LAST YEAR that your dog was going to be outside because of age... meaning the dog has been chained up for a LONG time. Part of having a pet is making sacrifices in other areas of your life in order to be able to keep said animal.


No I stated this was his last year weight pulling not living outside, he's been living outside off and on for 9 years and never had an issue with it. I chain and I chain responsibly, I have no issues with a proper chain set-up. And screw you, I'm not moving out of the only place I can stay simply because my dog lives outside on a zip-line. I had NO WHERE ELSE TO GO. My mother is in rehab, my family REFUSES to speak to me, I had to deal with losing my family, my little sister, my home, my car, my other two dogs, my cat, my job, and my only parent all in the span of maybe 2 weeks. Do know what that feels like at all? Do you know you saying I'm a sucky dog owner simply because my dog lives on a chain and I'm doing the best I can with the crappy situation I'm in and trying to get back on my feet does to me? Take a walk in my shoes and tell me where you stand.


----------



## Caty M

Sorry, but there is no chaining responsibly, especially when wild animals have free access to your dog. Can't really explain anything further... good luck to your dog.


----------



## SerenityFL

Oh my God. I had to stop on page 4. I can't read any further. I know some of you don't like everything I do but I have to say, I am appalled that some people on here think that having their dogs outside 24/7 is a good thing. WTF is wrong with you? Your dog may have a clean bill of health and your dog may get off the chain to run 5 miles but that is NOT all there is to a dog's life! Dogs are social animals. You have no idea what you do to that dog's mental state when you leave it outside 24/7 and not in the home with you.

So you have an excuse about your situation right now. How about sending the dog to a fricken day care where it can fricken socialize?

There is NO reason, AT! ALL! EVER! to leave a dog UNATTENDED outside with a fricken chain or even a tie out! EVER! If your dog is outside, YOU should be outside. If you don't want your dog to live in a crate all day while you're gone, TRAIN YOUR DOG! Lord KNOWS I know what it's like to have to work hard to train my damn stubborn dog not to chew the crap out of everything I own but I worked, I spent months on this dog, MONTHS, teaching him what was right, what was not alright. I lost some things. It was hard work. There were days I wanted to throw in the towel but I would NEVER give up on my dog and just toss him outside all day.

Has it occurred to some of you that people steal dogs right out of people's yards? This is going on in Maine right now. Dogs are on tie outs in the yard, NO humans watching, and some d-bag comes along and steals their dog. Days later, the dog is found on someone elses yard, wrapped up in a tarp, mutilated. They suspect these stolen dogs are being used as bait for fighting dogs. Is that what you want happening to your dog?! Does your dog not deserve to be trained in the house or go to a day care or hell, even a fricken crate is better than this. 

To the OP: I would contact animal control on these people. If that dog is living in garbage, tied to a short chain, water and food seem to be scarce, chances are, they will take those dogs. Don't just do nothing, do something. Call someone. Get that poor dog out of that environment.

For those who think chains are a-okay and/or believe it's perfectly fine to let a dog stay outside 24/7...I'm fricken beyond disgusted and will follow Kevin out of here for some time because I am THAT F-EN LIVID THAT IF I KEEP GOING I WILL GET BANNED.

jdftiou423uiou2riofjsdklgsaklr3jn2kl4jh2`3u4o23urwe~!!!!!!!!!! seriously!?!?!!?!?!!?


----------



## CorgiPaws

Muttkip said:


> No I stated this was his last year weight pulling not living outside, he's been living outside off and on for 9 years and never had an issue with it. I chain and I chain responsibly, I have no issues with a proper chain set-up. And screw you, I'm not moving out of the only place I can stay simply because my dog lives outside on a zip-line. I had NO WHERE ELSE TO GO. My mother is in rehab, my family REFUSES to speak to me, I had to deal with losing my family, my little sister, my home, my car, my other two dogs, my cat, my job, and my only parent all in the span of maybe 2 weeks. Do know what that feels like at all? Do you know you saying I'm a sucky dog owner simply because my dog lives on a chain and I'm doing the best I can with the crappy situation I'm in and trying to get back on my feet does to me? Take a walk in my shoes and tell me where you stand.



What it comes down to is an ethical and moral stance on what determines quality of life for a dog. Chaining is a topic that can get really freaking heated. This is pretty tame compared to some discussions on it.
We ALL have sob stories. All of us. It does not make the situation any better for the dog living on a chain. TO many dog enthusiasts that is simply unacceptable. I have no doubt you love your dog, but I do strongly doubt the quality of life he might have. 
I'm going to close this thread for now, because it's being taken too far. 
And Muttkip- yes. I know how that feels. Don't assume ou're the only one who has ever been jaded before.


----------



## luvMyBRT

I have a friend who lives up in New York. He wouldn't dream of leaving his dog outside unattended. Two words: BAIT DOG. He has told me horror stories of people involved with dog fighting stealing unattended dogs out of peoples yard and then using them as bait dogs to train their fighting dogs.

Maybe dog fighting isn't a real problem where you are......but are you 100% sure?

I would never leave my dogs outside unattended. Ever. I am too much of a worry wort. What if the gate is left open? What if they are poisoned? What if they are strangled? What if they are stolen? What if my sweet loving 12 year old Lucky is stolen and tortured, torn apart and dies while being a bait dog? Way too many what ifs for me.

I understand that you are in a hard situation....but could your pup sleep and be put in a garage when no one is home? That way when he's out on the chain someone is atleast home?


----------



## Scarlett_O'

Muttkip said:


> *Well let's see he digs, climbs and chews his way out of fences,* it's NOT my property. And this is the SAFEST way for me to contain my dog on a property that again does not belong to me.


:yell::mad2::frusty:That is a freaking bored and lonely hound!!  :yell::mad2::frusty:


----------



## destinoscelgo

Muttkip said:


> No I stated this was his last year weight pulling not living outside, he's been living outside off and on for 9 years and never had an issue with it. I chain and I chain responsibly, I have no issues with a proper chain set-up. And screw you, I'm not moving out of the only place I can stay simply because my dog lives outside on a zip-line. I had NO WHERE ELSE TO GO. My mother is in rehab, my family REFUSES to speak to me, I had to deal with losing my family, my little sister, my home, my car, my other two dogs, my cat, my job, and my only parent all in the span of maybe 2 weeks. Do know what that feels like at all? Do you know you saying I'm a sucky dog owner simply because my dog lives on a chain and I'm doing the best I can with the crappy situation I'm in and trying to get back on my feet does to me? Take a walk in my shoes and tell me where you stand.


Try not to let it get to you.

And coyotes in georgia...
I live on long island. We are a much smaller area than georgia that's for sure yes we have deer on log island. Does that mean there are any near my house? Absolutly not lol im sure what muttkip meant was there are no coyotes in her area. If there were...well... im sure she would do her best to tend to her situation. Not EVERYONE is against chaining here people. Let's keep that in mind that there are also reasons why several areas have not banned chaining and as long as animal control has no issue with it...niether should anybody else.

Edit...I just want to point out that im aware there is a huge difference between deer and coyotes. Just saying.

Also I believe the title to this thread is "pit breeding" not."pit chaining" where as I believe the OP clearly stated that she was worried as to how short the chain was and I believe there was no proper shelter. Let's give the OP some advice on how to deal with her situation instead?


----------



## DaneMama

Muttkip said:


> No I stated this was his last year weight pulling not living outside, he's been living outside off and on for 9 years and never had an issue with it. I chain and I chain responsibly, I have no issues with a proper chain set-up. And screw you, I'm not moving out of the only place I can stay simply because my dog lives outside on a zip-line. I had NO WHERE ELSE TO GO. My mother is in rehab, my family REFUSES to speak to me, I had to deal with losing my family, my little sister, my home, my car, my other two dogs, my cat, my job, and my only parent all in the span of maybe 2 weeks. Do know what that feels like at all? Do you know you saying I'm a sucky dog owner simply because my dog lives on a chain and I'm doing the best I can with the crappy situation I'm in and trying to get back on my feet does to me? Take a walk in my shoes and tell me where you stand.


Wow....sounds like you've had a rough couple of weeks! Life sucks and its unfair sometimes. I know that I've been in some really low points in life. It can definitely take a toll on you. But when a door closes, ten other ones open right up...its just a matter of getting back on your feet. 

But it sounds like you're dog has been living chained up prior to your life taking a turn for the worse. Its more a difference in what people consider a "good quality of life" means to a dog. To me, a dog chained up has a low quality of life. Simple as that. 

If it came down to me having to chain my dogs up just to get by in life....I would re-home them. Temporarily if at all possible, until I can give them the life that they need and deserve. Again, to me my dogs shouldn't have to sacrifice their quality of life because I'VE hit hard times. This would devastate me to the core, but their well being is the utmost importance to me


----------



## CorgiPaws

destinoscelgo said:


> as long as animal control has no issue with it...niether should anybody else.


What a joke.


----------



## RachelsaurusRexU

I'm sorry for your situation, it sounds really awful. That being said, I'd find a foster home before leaving my dog chained and unattended, just until I could get back on my feet. I'm sure there are rescue groups that would help you do that. I agree with Sara, I'd NEVER feel safe...way too many things that could happen.

Maybe you should pitch a tent out there and sleep with him. Not even being facetious.


----------



## destinoscelgo

PuppyPaws said:


> What a joke.


how do you figure? Are you telling me that if AC was called in a RESPONSIBLE chain setup situation (and by that I mean proper shelter and care...still spending.time with family food water etc oh and if its terrible out...bring the poor dog in lol) that if the left it alone they would be wrong? 
Don't get me wrong I don't believe that a dog should be chained up constantly but there are people out there who can make it work and their dogs are still being taken care of. 
Unfortunatly while we all have our opinions on this topic its really a CASE by CASE basis.I am not saying all dogs are best outside. But some dogs are also not best being left in their kennels either =\ the situation all depends on the facts


----------



## Scarlett_O'

destinoscelgo said:


> how do you figure? Are you telling me that if AC was called in a RESPONSIBLE chain setup situation (and by that I mean proper shelter and care...still spending.time with family food water etc oh and if its terrible out...bring the poor dog in lol) that if the left it alone they would be wrong?
> Don't get me wrong I don't believe that a dog should be chained up constantly but there are people out there who can make it work and their dogs are still being taken care of.
> Unfortunatly while we all have our opinions on this topic its really a CASE by CASE basis.I am not saying all dogs are best outside. But some dogs are also not best being left in their kennels either =\ the situation all depends on the facts


The AC in general is a joke.

I could go on and on and on and on about the horses, dogs and cats that Ive seen the AC leave in their condition because of some lame excuses....so yes, it is a joke...because the AC is a joke.


----------



## destinoscelgo

Scarlett_O' said:


> The AC in general is a joke.
> 
> I could go on and on and on and on about the horses, dogs and cats that Ive seen the AC leave in their condition because of some lame excuses....so yes, it is a joke...because the AC is a joke.


I know what you mean.
And I could name the countless times that cops have left terrible situations for real victims of crime even in nice suburban neighborhoods like the one I live in. Do I think THEY are a joke? Oh hell yes lol do I aggree that AC is a joke as well? Well...of course I don't even think we have an animal control here actually...
Anyway I see it as MOST of the time. The law is meant to protect us but its irresponsible dog (and other animal owners) owners that ruin it for everyone else.


----------



## RachelsaurusRexU

Even if you have an awesome ACO that adores and truly cares about the well being of animals and works her patootie off to see that no animals are mistreated....AHEM (hehe).....the laws are more often than not AGAINST us. Believe me...I've come across SO MANY situations that I've wished I could change (and have still tried my damnedest to change) but there are very weak laws or no laws to back me up. We have had some severe cruelty cases where the courts put horribly abused and neglected animals back in the hands of their abusers. And in the case of dogs who live 24/7 outdoors, the law in my area says they need shelter and water. That doesn't make it right, doesn't make it humane, doesn't make it fair to the bored, lonely dogs who live their lives -day in and day out- on a freaking chain. Believe me....if *I* could enforce that, I WOULD. So just because animal control has nothing to say about it, doesn't make it a good situation for this dog.


----------



## swolek

This thread is so disturbing to me.

I don't want to repeat the same things that have been said over and over...but a chained dog is also a sitting duck for "bad" people. It's extremely easy to steal, poison, or hurt a chained dog when the owner isn't home. Even if there are somehow no coyotes in the area, that's a risk everywhere.


----------



## minnieme

I'm with Natalie. As much as it would kill me to have to rehome Minnie or any other dog, I would do it if I felt like I wasn't providing an adequate..no, SUPERB...home for my dog.


----------



## Muttkip

You guys are all just sick thinking I'm going to rehome my dog to some person or rescue simply because he lives on a chain and is not allowed in the house. I've had my dog for 9 years and I will NEVER re-home him, I'd live under a bridge before I'd do that. There were times when I went weeks without eating so he could eat and get the care he needed, I cut off the internet and bills and sold a lot of stuff to scrape by to provide for him. Telling me I'm a sucky dog owner simply because you think that your opinion is all high and mighty and you look down on me for what I do with MY dog is just wrong.


----------



## DaneMama

Honestly, I think the way I feel is logical. I'm not going to have selfish feelings about keeping a dog that I KNOW I can't provide a proper lifestyle to. It would tear me apart to do so...but my dogs' well being is more important than my ability to provide for them. 

I don't "look down" on what you think is best. But I certainly don't agree with it. I wouldn't ever CHOOSE the lifestyle of living under a bridge for my dogs. I would try my hardest to find a long term foster home for them.


----------



## MissMercury

Some dogs aren't family pets. Some dogs have a job to do and don't belong in a house. Believe it or not,dogs actually used to have a purpose other than laying around on their owners couch all day.


----------



## RachelsaurusRexU

MissMercury said:


> Some dogs aren't family pets. Some dogs have a job to do and don't belong in a house. Believe it or not,dogs actually used to have a purpose other than laying around on their owners couch all day.


I don't see how this is relevant to the thread.


----------



## minnieme

MissMercury, perhaps you haven't seen how beautifully a lot of members here blend purpose with "family pets." Have you not seen the multiple posts about schutzhund, tracking, hunting, agility, etc? I think most of us here want our dogs to have that sense of "fulfilled purpose," and yet I think few here believe that in doing so, this relegates their dog to subpar living conditions. A beloved pet and one who does what it was bred to do need not be mutually exclusive.


----------



## minnieme

Muttkip said:


> You guys are all just sick thinking I'm going to rehome my dog to some person or rescue simply because he lives on a chain and is not allowed in the house. I've had my dog for 9 years and I will NEVER re-home him, I'd live under a bridge before I'd do that. There were times when I went weeks without eating so he could eat and get the care he needed, I cut off the internet and bills and sold a lot of stuff to scrape by to provide for him. Telling me I'm a sucky dog owner simply because you think that your opinion is all high and mighty and you look down on me for what I do with MY dog is just wrong.


I'm sorry if you feel personally attacked....it's clear you love your dog and it's clear you've survived numerous hardships. With that being said, you can't fault the members here for their concern for the wellbeing of your dog -- with all the horror stories posted up so far, I'm surprised it doesn't seem to concern you. I guess at the end of the day it's about if and how you can reconcile this situation with yourself and your values. I think someone made a good point before about the dog being a treasured pet or more like property -- yours is a common point of view, but it's one that most of us find hard to swallow.


----------



## MissMercury

minnieme said:


> MissMercury, perhaps you haven't seen how beautifully a lot of members here blend purpose with "family pets." Have you not seen the multiple posts about schutzhund, tracking, hunting, agility, etc? I think most of us here want our dogs to have that sense of "fulfilled purpose," and yet I think few here believe that in doing so, this relegates their dog to subpar living conditions. A beloved pet and one who does what it was bred to do need not be mutually exclusive.


 No,I haven't seen multiple posts on any subject. I just registered. I understand you can have a working dog that is still a pet. I just really don't get the anti chaining/dog living outside sentiment I'm seeing. Some people just don't view dogs as pets. To many,they are obtained with a specific purpose in mind. Dogs are animals and there's nothing wrong with treating them as such. People raise chickens for eggs and meat.They don't bring them in the house. A dog that has been obtained to herd cattle is no different than the chickens.


----------



## MissMercury

RachelsaurusRexU said:


> I don't see how this is relevant to the thread.


 See post#79.


----------



## DaneMama

MissMercury said:


> Some dogs aren't family pets. Some dogs have a job to do and don't belong in a house. Believe it or not,dogs actually used to have a purpose other than laying around on their owners couch all day.


This makes absolutely ZERO sense. 

Dogs that are chained have a purpose in life that they couldn't fulfill living a lifestyle actually being INSIDE their owners home?! Is this seriously what you're saying? 

What about being included in a social family structure weakens a dog from "having a job"?


----------



## MissMercury

It makes perfect sense. If I have a pack of 25 sled dogs I'm certainly not going to bring them into my house.And the funny thing about sled dogs is,they like to run.A lot.So I would have to keep them chained up to prevent them from running wild.I never said that any dog that has job shouldn't be in the house,just that in some situations it's not feasible and no reason to look down on the owner of such dogs.


----------



## sozzle

Gosh I think everyone has made their opinions felt very strongly. Leave the poor girl alone, she's doing the best she can under the circumstances and as she said the dog isn't allowed in the house so she doesn't have much choice. I know that working dogs on farms here in NZ don't ever come in the house. They are normally heading dogs/sheep dogs/hunterways that when not out on the farm live in kennels. Most farmers have several dogs. They are worth a lot of money. Always seemed a bit mean to me but that's how it is. I even have a friend who has a husky that isn't allowed in the house but has a nice pen. Again I find this a bit odd and wonder why they have a family pet if it's not allowed in the house and I have another friend who used to have two dogs and her husband didn't believe in dogs being inside so they lived outside in a pen when they weren't being exercised or played with. I always thought it was mean and in actual fact the dogs didn't want to even come into the house. I wouldn't do it as I think owning a dog is part of the family and they need company. I've seen dogs chained here, not very nice and I would never do it plus we signed a contract when we adopted our dog that we were never even to tether him as they are so fast they could take off and break their neck? Just thought I would add my two pennies worth.


----------



## Chocx2

Most people that would have that many dogs have kennels which is a building for the dogs. My dogs are working dogs, but they still are inside with me. At work we have many working dogs, they still get to sleep under some type of roof, but again, I do understand your situation and hope that some day you can have a place for them in your home. You will be able to see what you've been missing.

Other animals are out in the elements, I owned horses, and would bring them in to a stall at night just safer but I understand that I was able to do that. Your right about farm dogs some do stay outside and yes thats there job, gotta love em:wink:


----------



## kady05

Phew, some of you guys are really lovely! I've never strayed out of the Raw feeding section.. now I know why!

To bash someone who has a great chain set up, and is being a responsible dog owner.. wow. Do you know how many dogs live horrible lives compared to that Beagle? 

To those against chaining, would you rather a dog spend 8-10hrs. a day in a crate? What about dogs that are escape artists? Ones that jump fences? Would you rather that dog get hit by a car, OR be on a proper chain set up and be able to live its life. Behavior modification only goes so far.. especially with say, a DA APBT who sees another dog in the street and WILL get to that dog no matter what. 

And yes, contrary to popular belief, there ARE dogs out there that AREN'T house dogs. They are much happier, and do much better living outdoors where they can exercise. Working dogs, sled dogs, true APBT's, etc. 

I'm obviously not a fan of leaving a dog out on a chain (or outside in general) 24/7 with no human interaction. However, I know MANY dogs that are chained who live great lives; they get proper exercise, they get food & water, vet care, human interaction, etc. 

Oh and - I hate the use of "pitty" or "pibble" as well (I know that was like 8pgs. ago but thought I'd mention), it absolutely drives me NUTS when owners refer to their dogs as such.


----------



## Cliffdog

Yes this is why I stay in the raw feeding section, Kady, lmao. I have nothing against any of the members here when I say that, we're just different types of owners.

My dog loves her tie-out. We have a 10x10 kennel but she (and I) prefer the 20ft chain setup. I mean, of course she prefers the 1256.64sqft chain spot to the 100sqft kennel. My dad doesn't feel the same, his dog Abbey stays in the kennel when she has to be outside, and she hates it. Regardless, both of them have food, water, toys, a pool when it's hot, poop cleaned up almost as soon as it hits the dirt, and get more attention than they know what to do with. I'm kind of obsessed with my dogs; they surely aren't neglected in any way.

Bonnie and Abbey are both housedogs; they are only out in their respective kennel/chain spot when nobody's home... Although to be honest Bonnie doesn't like being inside much and would spend all her time in the yard if I'd let her. My next dog, however, will not be allowed in the house except for certain circumstances such as illness or bad weather. My dogs will all be exercised, fed, watered, loved and played with... I don't feel like the dog has to sleep on the couch for that to be true.

If I had to keep my dog in a crate while I was working, I just wouldn't have a dog at all, but I don't rail against folks that crate. All forms of containment can be used and abused. I've seen dogs that lived in their crates too small with their own feces and urine, and who were left forgotten in a crate to starve. Is it because crates are bad? No, it's because the owners were. They would have been bad owners with or without a crate to help them, the crate was just a tool. Likewise I've seen dogs put on chain setups with no swivels so they got all tangled up, and too close to a fence or tree so they got hung. Not the fault of the chain spot, but the dumb owners who put it together improperly.

Bonnie's got her sweet little punkin' head on my lap right now and she doesn't look too torn up about spending time on a tie-out.  In fact by the look on her face I believe she's ready to go out on her tie-out right now. As for "you don't know what you're missing" I've lived with indoor dogs all my life and I've never noticed them being any happier or more well-rounded than our outside dogs. In fact if anything our outside dogs always seemed a bit happier because they were allowed to act like dogs all the time, rather than having to obey "indoors rules". The inside dogs had to be on their best behavior always, while the outside dogs had much more freedom to behave as they pleased.


----------



## kevin bradley

We actually had an ordinance passed in Battle Creek on the number of hours you are allowed to keep your Dog chained. A great number of wonderful people in our community spent endless hours working to get this passed. Sadly, I still see numerous Dogs on chains but at least we still have something on the books to go after them with. 

I just read thru the responses since I took a break last night...

"My Dog loves his life on a chain."-- Really? Are you sure? Do you realize you can beat the hell out of a Dog and still have him wag his tail when he sees you? Their ability to love us unconditionally gives us great responsibility to never take advantage of this.

"Well, its better than a crate all day." Yeah, you're right. Point? Surely you can't think we are advocating a crate over a chain? Both suck.



Let me add one comment. My disgust with Chained Dogs is aimed moreso at the 24/7 chained Dogs. I have real concerns with Dogs safety on any chain, so I do not prefer it at all. If somehow(and I'm not sure you can) you can be certain of their safety while they are chained, and it is for short periods during a day.... my beef really isn't with you. My issue is with the Dogs I see daily who spend their LIVES chained up. You can see the damn sadness in their eyes.


----------



## Cliffdog

kevin bradley said:


> "Well, its better than a crate all day." Yeah, you're right. Point? Surely you can't think we are advocating a crate over a chain? Both suck.


What do you recommend then? Quitting our jobs? 

And my dog does indeed like her tie-out. It doesn't take a genius to look out the window at a dog and see if it's miserable or happy. But thanks for presuming that you know our dogs better than we do.


----------



## kevin bradley

No, I recommend you keeping your Dog inside or a safe fenced in area. 

Frankly, I don't like Dogs outside when the owner isn't home. But I'd take it over a chain any day. 

Period.


----------



## xellil

kevin bradley said:


> We actually had an ordinance passed in Battle Creek on the number of hours you are allowed to keep your Dog chained. A great number of wonderful people in our community spent endless hours working to get this passed. Sadly, I still see numerous Dogs on chains but at least we still have something on the books to go after them with.


In Indy, you can chain a dog from dawn to dusk but not all night. It's laughable. And there are no rules that say you can't put a giant chain on a 30 pound dog, or how long the chain has to be. I think they do require water and shelter, but I haven't noticed them enforcing that.

If my choice were having my dog sit in a box or be tied to a doghouse, I would have a hard time deciding which is worse. My Doberman is boundary trained and I know he will never leave the yard so I don't have to tie him when I am out there working in my flower beds. The dachshund, not so much because she pays no attention to anything (I haven't even successfuly taught her to "sit") and i don't push it because she's old, deaf, has bad eyesight, can't run very fast, and wanders into the neighbor's yard rather than into the street.

I try not to anthropomorphize, but I can't imagine it would be fun for me to sit in a crate or be chained to a tree. Alot of people think crates are fine - I don't. I think they are cruel confinement of a dog, especially for long periods of time. But the people who chain and the people who crate will both argue and rationalize that it is ok for their dogs.


----------



## xellil

I do think there is a difference in a zipline which allows a dog hundreds of square feet compared to a 6 foot chain. We used to walk by a dog on a zipline, and he had more room on his line than my dogs have in their fenced yard.


----------



## Cliffdog

xellil said:


> But the people who chain and the people who crate will both argue and rationalize that it is ok for their dogs.


Dunno how it's rationalizing for me to say there's nothing wrong with my dog having a 1256.7sqft space of her own in my yard. Which is fenced, by the way, Kevin. But I have two dogs and I don't like to leave them alone unsupervised as they are both dominant dogs and will fight. So they are separated by way of kennel and chain. Bonnie's fine with her chain spot, walks right out to it every day to be hooked up... Abbey prefers being closed in a room in the house than in the kennel. Can't blame her, 100sqft isn't much space.


----------



## kevin bradley

xellil said:


> In Indy, you can chain a dog from dawn to dusk but not all night. It's laughable. And there are no rules that say you can't put a giant chain on a 30 pound dog, or how long the chain has to be. I think they do require water and shelter, but I haven't noticed them enforcing that.
> 
> If my choice were having my dog sit in a box or be tied to a doghouse, I would have a hard time deciding which is worse. My Doberman is boundary trained and I know he will never leave the yard so I don't have to tie him when I am out there working in my flower beds. The dachshund, not so much because she pays no attention to anything (I haven't even successfuly taught her to "sit") and i don't push it because she's old, deaf, has bad eyesight, can't run very fast, and wanders into the neighbor's yard rather than into the street.
> 
> I try not to anthropomorphize, but I can't imagine it would be fun for me to sit in a crate or be chained to a tree. Alot of people think crates are fine - I don't. I think they are cruel confinement of a dog, especially for long periods of time. But the people who chain and the people who crate will both argue and rationalize that it is ok for their dogs.


Agree 100%. I SUPPOSE if someone pins me down on CRATE vs. Chain, I'd pick the chain for a better quality life. But we're talking in terms of level of "suck" factor here so take it for what its worth. 

However, the one point I think chainers miss is this... you will never convince me that your Dog is safe on a chain. You likely have a house, some type of structure they can hang themselves up on. Chainers are setting themselves up for a damn hard lesson. Kind of like the "pickup truck" fools who think it looks cool to have their Dog in the back of a truck.


----------



## kevin bradley

xellil said:


> I do think there is a difference in a zipline which allows a dog hundreds of square feet compared to a 6 foot chain. We used to walk by a dog on a zipline, and he had more room on his line than my dogs have in their fenced yard.


I guess I'd agree with that one. I'm not very familiar with Zip lines for Dogs.


----------



## kevin bradley

Cliffdog said:


> Dunno how it's rationalizing for me to say there's nothing wrong with my dog having a 1256.7sqft space of her own in my yard. Which is fenced, by the way, Kevin. But I have two dogs and I don't like to leave them alone unsupervised as they are both dominant dogs and will fight. So they are separated by way of kennel and chain. Bonnie's fine with her chain spot, walks right out to it every day to be hooked up... Abbey prefers being closed in a room in the house than in the kennel. Can't blame her, 100sqft isn't much space.


Cliff, we've always gotten along out here and I'm not intentionally out to ruin that. As I said, my beef isn't with people who use a chain periodically throughout the day. I'll admit, I don't love it... but its my opinion. The crap I've seen in my city has me fired up on this subject, admittedly.


----------



## Cliffdog

kevin bradley said:


> However, the one point I think chainers miss is this... you will never convince me that your Dog is safe on a chain. You likely have a house, some type of structure they can hang themselves up on.


Nope. Doghouse is kept at the end of the chain so that she cannot get but about half way around it. I'm no genius but I'm not that dumb.


----------



## xellil

We used to take our dogs in the back of the pickup. Of course, as kids WE rode in the back of a pickup. Just like the dogs! we took a trip to California once with three kids in the back of a pickup that had a top to it. I would get arrested today if I went driving around with kids in the back of a pickup.

And yes, leaving them alone on a line to me is akin to an invisible fence - maybe they can't hurt themselves if you are careful, but they aren't protected from vicious dogs or thieves or a whole bunch of other things. I've had two dogs that were poisoned, also.

I don't leave my dogs in the yard alone, but if a burglar comes I want my Doberman to be somewhere besides on a chain so he might intimidate someone.


----------



## Cliffdog

kevin bradley said:


> Cliff, we've always gotten along out here and I'm not intentionally out to ruin that. As I said, my beef isn't with people who use a chain periodically throughout the day. I'll admit, I don't love it... but its my opinion. The crap I've seen in my city has me fired up on this subject, admittedly.


Obviously you're entitled to your opinion. And honestly, I don't have to agree with someone all the time to get along with them. :thumb: I'm just arguing my point. I feel my dog is safer in the fenced yard on a tie-out than free in the yard, or in a crate or kennel.


----------



## Cliffdog

xellil said:


> I don't leave my dogs in the yard alone, but if a burglar comes I want my Doberman to be somewhere besides on a chain so he might intimidate someone.


Yeah, guard dogs are a whole different ball park.


----------



## xellil

oh, he's not a guard dog , just a barker   My dad is sometimes alone in the house, and he's got COPD and can't get around very well. I feel better that my dog will go nuts at the door, and maybe someone would decide NOT to break in, if we aren't home.


----------



## Cliffdog

xellil said:


> oh, he's not a guard dog , just a barker  My dad is sometimes alone in the house, and he's got COPD and can't get around very well. I feel better that my dog will go nuts at the door, and maybe someone would decide NOT to break in, if we aren't home.


Yeah, that's the truth. A dog in the house definitely has more deterrent value than a chained dog. I just don't like leaving my dogs alone in the house for any length of time... I admit it, I'm extremely paranoid, I'm afraid they'll eat something dangerous or something, and also I like that outside they don't have to hold it if they need to go to the bathroom. (I'm not criticizing anyone who leaves their dogs inside, we did it with our small dog for years and years... Just stating why I don't do it myself.)

Anyways, everyone has individual dogs and individual situations. I feel like you should do what is best for you and your individual dog... anybody who does that, is a-okay in my book.


----------



## lmgakg

Caty M said:


> since I found out the little 10lb brat can climb my 6' wood slat fence. :suspicious: .


That's awesome!!!! My dad who is a master builder and welder built a fence once and spent like $200 just to try to contain my Maltese to the kitchen while we weren't home - he used to pee on the carpet and I didn't want to crate him. Somehow, no one knows exactly what he did, but everyday we would come home and he was in the living room on the carpet!!!!! They are stinkers!!


----------



## Caty M

Sorry, still can't agree on the chain. There is still NO WAY you are able to be outside spending time with your dog as you are inside spending time with your dog. Dogs are NOT MEANT to be away from their family. I realize that most people (myself included) have a full time job.. but for a dog to be alone beyond that is NOT natural and NOT healthy for the mental wellbeing of the dog. Some dogs are probably better than others (ie livestock guardians) but if I tried to make my Italian greyhound or sheltie live outside they'd lose it. They follow me from room to room and are always by my side, Tess especially. Their favorite thing is watching TV cuddled on the couch!

Plus... what about the heat? I lived in the southern US for a bit and summers could get up to 105-110... I realize the dog has shade and water but still! Would YOU be comfortable? I doubt it.

And I'm sorry, I've seen coyotes where I live (Canada) both in high density urban as well as rural areas... and if you have five acres of unfenced land I would be VERY surprised if there were no coyotes.


----------



## Cliffdog

I can't take the "it's unnatural" and "dogs need to be with you ALL THE TIME" arguments seriously. It is a very recent thing for dogs to be constant (and I mean CONSTANT) companions.


----------



## Caty M

Cliffdog said:


> I can't take the "it's unnatural" and "dogs need to be with you ALL THE TIME" arguments seriously. It is a very recent thing for dogs to be constant (and I mean CONSTANT) companions.


Yes.. but it's been bred for.. also far before that dogs were with their family (pack) all the time. It's not a new thing that a dog is a social animal.


----------



## Scarlett_O'

Caty M said:


> Sorry, still can't agree on the chain. There is still NO WAY you are able to be outside spending time with your dog as you are inside spending time with your dog. Dogs are NOT MEANT to be away from their family. I realize that most people (myself included) have a full time job.. but for a dog to be alone beyond that is NOT natural and NOT healthy for the mental wellbeing of the dog. Some dogs are probably better than others (ie livestock guardians) but if I tried to make my Italian greyhound or sheltie live outside they'd lose it. They follow me from room to room and are always by my side, Tess especially. Their favorite thing is watching TV cuddled on the couch!
> 
> Plus... what about the heat? I lived in the southern US for a bit and summers could get up to 105-110... I realize the dog has shade and water but still! Would YOU be comfortable? I doubt it.
> 
> And I'm sorry, I've seen coyotes where I live (Canada) both in high density urban as well as rural areas... and if you have five acres of unfenced land I would be VERY surprised if there were no coyotes.


Totally, 1000000%, agree with you, Caty!!

I have 2 decent sized herders....I can NOT even imagine them having to be out side for their whole lives....ESPECIALLY chained! 

Ive seen FAR too many accidents with large, medium and small dogs alike from tethering/chaining!! My in-law's min-pin's leg now comes out of her socket any time she tries to run or jump for then a foot because of a freak accident while we where all out with her and she was on her tether to play with the boys!! I cant even imagine what had happened had we not been there!! (and the boys weren't even there!!)

And oh ya....and 100+ is NOT including the humidity....that heat is a KILLER!

And anyone who wants to say that there are no coyotes in Ga is fooling themselves and trying to lie to you and me!


----------



## catahoulamom

kady05 said:


> Oh and - I hate the use of "pitty" or "pibble" as well (I know that was like 8pgs. ago but thought I'd mention), it absolutely drives me NUTS when owners refer to their dogs as such.


I love my pitty, and I don't really care if it drives you nuts when I call him that. He's not a purebred American Pitbull Terrier, what else am I supposed to call him? I'm not going to call him an American Bully. That is just stupid.


----------



## Cliffdog

Caty M said:


> Yes.. but it's been bred for.. also far before that dogs were with their family (pack) all the time. It's not a new thing that a dog is a social animal.


Not new at all, but dogs were also frequently on tie-outs then. For instance, sled dogs are one of the most pack-oriented dogs there are, and they are STILL tied-out frequently to this very day.


----------



## RachelsaurusRexU

Julie said:


> I love my pitty, and I don't really care if it drives you nuts when I call him that. He's not a purebred American Pitbull Terrier, what else am I supposed to call him? I'm not going to call him an American Bully. That is just stupid.


And I love my pibbles!


----------



## Caty M

Cliffdog said:


> Not new at all, but dogs were also frequently on tie-outs then. For instance, sled dogs are one of the most pack-oriented dogs there are, and they are STILL tied-out frequently to this very day.


Doesn't mean I agree with it. Admittedly most sled dog owners run businesses... and can't keep that many dogs in their house, so most are kenneled. WITH OTHER DOGS. It's still not an ideal living situation for a dog.

And um Cliffdog, I don't remember ever seeing a WOLF on a tie-out. They are still social.


----------



## Cliffdog

Never seen a wolf in a house, either.  At least the dog on the tie-out is outside with some freedom. Also kennels do not provide as much space as a tie-out. I hate kennels. I'll never use one except for bitches in heat.


----------



## Caty M

*But away from their companions.* A dog should of course get outside time/exercise... no one is disputing that.


----------



## kevin bradley

Julie said:


> I love my pitty, and I don't really care if it drives you nuts when I call him that. He's not a purebred American Pitbull Terrier, what else am I supposed to call him? I'm not going to call him an American Bully. That is just stupid.


YES. Agree 100% A pet peeve of mine is when people pick out the dumbest, most arbitrary things in life and attack people for it. 

We're talking about a serious issues...

And seriously? Someone wants to complain about what we CALL a Pit or Stafford or Bully Breed, Pitty?... SERIOUSLY? REALLY? People think THAT is what the problem is with Pits and Dog Fighting and the crap going down with our Dogs? 

So while another Pit is subjected to Dog Fighting, or Euthanization... we'll discuss what we CALL them?

Stupid. Call your Dog what you want. Treat them right. THATS what I care about.


----------



## Cliffdog

Caty M said:


> *But away from their companions.* A dog should of course get outside time/exercise... no one is disputing that.


 I guess if you have only one dog, you're doing them a great disservice then, because they aren't in a pack when you're away at work or what have you...


----------



## Caty M

Cliffdog said:


> I guess if you have only one dog, you're doing them a great disservice then, because they aren't in a pack when you're away at work or what have you...


I already said it's a downside of having to have a full time job which I am sure 99.9% of us have to have. At least they are still getting in a solid 16 hours of time when you are within touchable distance of them. Not happening with a tied outside dog.

And that is one of the reasons why I got a second dog. :wink:


----------



## Boxers&Pom's Mom

It is so sad how many Pit Bulls are going to the death row because the stupidity of people breeding them. If instead of banning them in some states, they should make illegal breeding them and whoever own one need to spay/neuter them.


----------



## Caty M

Plus, I see none of the 'pro tie out' people have even ADDRESSED the fact about wild animals... which is a very real concern especially for a small dog like a beagle.


----------



## Caty M

Boxers&Pom's Mom said:


> It is so sad how many Pit Bulls are going to the death row because the stupidity of people breeding them. If instead of banning them in some states, they should make illegal breeding them and whoever own one need to spay/neuter them.


I don't think that works. As far as I know, 'pit bulls' are banned in Miami and many other cities.. people are still breeding them like crazy.


----------



## lmgakg

SerenityFL said:


> To the OP: I would contact animal control on these people. If that dog is living in garbage, tied to a short chain, water and food seem to be scarce, chances are, they will take those dogs. Don't just do nothing, do something. Call someone. Get that poor dog out of that environment.
> 
> !?


Yes, I have contacted the police and complained a couple times. They tell me they will look into it. I think, not sure, so please don't jump on me if I'm wrong, the problem is that they are given a "warning" and then have so many days to "fix" the problem. So, they will throw the garbage out one week and unchain the dogs and it's "fixed." But then the following week, it's back to the crap treatment again. The dogs don't appear to have open wounds or look underweight or starving. But for instance, the other day, while the female was chained up, he (JackA$$) came out and gave her a bowl of water, well before he could get back to the house, she was jumping around like crazy excited to see someone and stepped in the bowl and tipped the water. He threw his hands in the air (like whatever) and she cowered and he went in the house. So, yeah, he attempted giving her water, but in the end, she didn't get any.... Again, my problem isn't the breed exactly - I think that the breed has the potential to be dangerous to kids (an excited child runs to a dog - it happens all the time, flailing it's arms and screaming in excitement and the dog reacts poorly because it's scared to death and doesn't know this child isn't going to attack them) and other dogs/pets (because of the strong jaw, because of the muscle) when they are not social PETS...when they are property and treated as such, that is when the problem occurrs. I totally agree it's not the dog's fault, but the owner's. A dog gives out what it is given, if it's given love it has love to give! Treat it like your family and it will be your family. But these are strong dogs, and they are NOT someone's family....and it breaks my heart. I will continue to call - and hopefully, these dogs will find a loving family. My dogs sleep in my bed, they go outside when they want and they come in when they want. They are my babies...I talk to them just as I talked to my duaghter when she was an infant. I don't leave them home alone, if I can't take them on vacation with me, I get someone to stay at my house THE ENTIRE time I'm gone, with the exception of work... So, to see these dogs, to me it's neglect....


----------



## Cliffdog

Caty M said:


> Plus, I see none of the 'pro tie out' people have even ADDRESSED the fact about wild animals... which is a very real concern especially for a small dog like a beagle.


For me the wild animal thing isn't a problem any more than would be a dog free in the yard. My yard is fenced and I am not surrounded by woods. Not a concern of mine.


----------



## Caty M

Cliffdog said:


> For me the wild animal thing isn't a problem any more than would be a dog free in the yard. My yard is fenced and I am not surrounded by woods. Not a concern of mine.


The yard where the beagle is being kept is a 5 acre yard unfenced. Sorry but that's pretty prime territory for coyotes especially with dog food being left out.


----------



## lmgakg

kady05 said:


> Oh and - I hate the use of "pitty" or "pibble" as well (I know that was like 8pgs. ago but thought I'd mention), it absolutely drives me NUTS when owners refer to their dogs as such.


*WHY????? I don't get this at all????? I have a rottweiler and say rotty all the time. My friend has a doberman and I say doby. I also sometimes say pup instead of puppy or baby dog or whatever! And how is any of the criticism on the stupid little cutesy term I chose helping my problem at all!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! These dogs are neglected, plain and simple. If anyone has any helpful info, it would be greatly appreciated - please email me privately. Until then, argue amongst yourselves about stupid pet names someone has....my god, do you just need to say something even if it makes no sense????? Do you just need to add your two sense, hear yourself. Are you kidding me???? Are you so narrow minded that you see the nickname I used and then forget I am asking for HELP on neglected dogs???? Ugggg....makes me sick. *


----------



## Caty M

Yeah.. there is an "American pit bull terrier-Rhodesian ridgeback mix" downstairs... I just call her a "pit-ridgeback"... does it really make a difference?


----------



## DaneMama

MissMercury said:


> It makes perfect sense. If I have a pack of 25 sled dogs I'm certainly not going to bring them into my house.And the funny thing about sled dogs is,they like to run.A lot.So I would have to keep them chained up to prevent them from running wild.I never said that any dog that has job shouldn't be in the house,just that in some situations it's not feasible and no reason to look down on the owner of such dogs.


Ok, people in your situation account for oh probably less than 1% of dog owners. But what's wrong with building a proper enclosure for them? Possibly doing social runs with dogs who do well together? I still dont understand why you'd choose chaining all your dogs separately over at least letting them live in a secured yard....

And to the business side of it...just because they do it, doesn't make it right. There can be better ways to do things. 

And I also believe that if a dog is going to spend 10+ hours EVERYDAY in a kennel....you probably shouldn't have a dog. Not all dogs do well in doggie daycare situations, but if you are gone for the majority of your dogs life, at least provide them with mental stimulation. I'd say the vast majority of dogs are bored brainless, especially those who are confined for long periods regardless of how theyre confined. 

I honestly dont like the idea of outside dogs, whether they are working dogs or not. But a chained dog who is also an outside dog just plain isn't right in my book. I can understand having an outside dog if for whatever reason they can't come in, but just not on a chain. 

Oh...and most of the people who post in the raw section are posting here. It's all a matter of subject....we tend to be very passionate about our dogs. Probably more passionate than most people about anything. The good thing about this community is that we can all have a dignified, respectful and well thought out discussion/debate without getting ugly, name calling and f-bombin' others. Keep it up :thumb:


----------



## rannmiller

lmgakg said:


> I am not sure where to go or what to do, my aunt has some new neighbors. Two families have moved into one house, with the economy it's understandable, however, they have at least 4 dogs. Two grown pits and two puppies... And they are not pets, they appear to be a source of income or something, but the backyard is filled with trash, the city has been called on them. The grass gets to about a foot before they cut it. And they keep the adult pits chained up - not on long chains either. Occasionally, it's just the female chained - which I assume is for the breeding. The pups are not nursing anymore, however they are small. It kills me to see these poor dogs. Everytime one of the people, including the little kids, walks in the yard, they start screaming at the dogs, get in the back. Get in the back. One of them got beat for tearing up a garbage bag, but hell, the yard is filled with trash, I'm sure the dog assumed he was helping!!!! I don't know for sure that they are abused, but they are definitely not well cared for. And I know that a chained dog is a dangerous dog... Does anyone have any suggestions??? Oh, and talking to these idiots is not an option...they moved in from the slums of Detroit because the prices are super cheap - but they really belong in the slums of Detroit. I feel so bad for the kids, they are little, like under 12....I'm sure headed for trouble.
> 
> Lisa


I would honestly sneak over there, steal those dogs, and take them to the shelter. Poor puppies!


----------



## kady05

Julie said:


> I love my pitty, and I don't really care if it drives you nuts when I call him that. He's not a purebred American Pitbull Terrier, what else am I supposed to call him? I'm not going to call him an American Bully. That is just stupid.


Well, you could call him what he is, a Mutt. Or a Pit Bull mix. That's what I refer to Wilson and Piper as, depending on the day.



lmgakg said:


> *WHY????? I don't get this at all????? I have a rottweiler and say rotty all the time. My friend has a doberman and I say doby. I also sometimes say pup instead of puppy or baby dog or whatever! And how is any of the criticism on the stupid little cutesy term I chose helping my problem at all!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! These dogs are neglected, plain and simple. If anyone has any helpful info, it would be greatly appreciated - please email me privately. Until then, argue amongst yourselves about stupid pet names someone has....my god, do you just need to say something even if it makes no sense????? Do you just need to add your two sense, hear yourself. Are you kidding me???? Are you so narrow minded that you see the nickname I used and then forget I am asking for HELP on neglected dogs???? Ugggg....makes me sick. *


Holy wow.. if my comment about not liking people using the term "pitty" or "pibble" got you THAT upset, you really need to get a life LOL. I'm entitled to my opinion. I don't like it when people ask me if they can pet my "pibbles", it sounds absolutely ridiculous to me. Refer to them however you want, for me personally, I never use those terms. Too furmommy like for me.


----------



## chowder

Wow!! I take a little time off to get caught up on homework and I miss this whole thread! What an interesting read this was, (and quite a diversion from homework).

My two cents worth.....when we bought our house, we installed 500 ft of chain link fence before we even unpacked the furniture. The dogs came first and the price of the fence was thought out with the price of buying the house. 

Even with that much fencing, the dogs are not left outside if we are not at home. If they are out in the yard, what would keep a burglar from just breaking into the house and taking whatever they wanted? Plus, there is the coyote / dog thief / escape from the yard factor. 

I signed the anti-chain petition when it was here in Raleigh so there's my opinion on that. I walk by a Chow mix daily who has been chained to a dog house for as long as I can remember. Every day she comes out of her dog house, walks to the end of her ten foot chain and barks at me. I talk to her as I walk by and then she goes back into her dog house. On occasion I have seen some kids run past her and totally ignore her, but that's the only human interaction I've even seen her get. I have no idea why those people even have that dog. And there are a lot more like that in our state. It's pathetic. Dogs need to be touched. Just ask Rocky....as he constantly leans on me or bumps me just to make sure I'm within reach.

Oh yeah...... I call Rocky a Chusky and Shade a Rotten Weiller........I'm pretty sure those aren't their official breed names either! :happy:


----------



## lmgakg

kady05 said:


> Holy wow.. if my comment about not liking people using the term "pitty" or "pibble" got you THAT upset, you really need to get a life LOL. .



My point is - to those of you who are still missing it, is who the hell cares what the hell the damn dog is called.....it's being neglected, that's the point!!!!!!!! I asked for help and instead of offer help, you want to criticize the name I used. NOT helpful. And i think these dogs would LOVE to be CALLED anything. I wish people could focus on what is actually important. 

Frankly, I think that if anyone asked for advice on an issue and got 13 pages of arguments over stuff, it would get under anyone's skin. I was looking for some support and helpful ideas, rather I was condemed for using a "cute term" rather than the proper breed name....Thanks for your support!


----------



## lmgakg

rannmiller said:


> I would honestly sneak over there, steal those dogs, and take them to the shelter. Poor puppies!


I soooo wish I could!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! lol Well, okay, really, I couldn't take them to a shelter, but I wish I could KEEP them!!!!!!!!!!!!!  Or at least find a good family..... Where is Robin Hood when you need him?????


----------



## kady05

lmgakg said:


> My point is - to those of you who are still missing it, is who the hell cares what the hell the damn dog is called.....it's being neglected, that's the point!!!!!!!! I asked for help and instead of offer help, you want to criticize the name I used. NOT helpful. And i think these dogs would LOVE to be CALLED anything. I wish people could focus on what is actually important.
> 
> Frankly, I think that if anyone asked for advice on an issue and got 13 pages of arguments over stuff, it would get under anyone's skin. I was looking for some support and helpful ideas, rather I was condemed for using a "cute term" rather than the proper breed name....Thanks for your support!


I actually wasn't responding to you directly when I first posted that, someone else mentioned it too and I was agreeing. That's why I didn't quote anyone specifically. 

Anyway. As for advice, other than calling AC, there's not much you can do. If the dogs are being fed, have water, and some kind of shelter, most AC's won't do anything though. Have learned that many times.


----------



## magicre

i've read all thirteen pages.

i think we should all be proud that we stayed even close to topic for most of the thread.....


----------



## lmgakg

magicre said:


> i've read all thirteen pages.
> 
> i think we should all be proud that we stayed even close to topic for most of the thread.....


Re - thanks for making me smile!!! lol


----------



## Donna Little

destinoscelgo said:


> how do you figure? Are you telling me that if AC was called in a RESPONSIBLE chain setup situation (and by that I mean proper shelter and care...still spending.time with family food water etc oh and if its terrible out...bring the poor dog in lol) that if the left it alone they would be wrong?
> Don't get me wrong I don't believe that a dog should be chained up constantly but there are people out there who can make it work and their dogs are still being taken care of.
> Unfortunatly while we all have our opinions on this topic its really a CASE by CASE basis.I am not saying all dogs are best outside. But some dogs are also not best being left in their kennels either =\ the situation all depends on the facts


There is a pasture down the street from me that has for years been a hell hole for the horses that live there. No shelter, stagnant water if any, no feed and occasionally hay to eat. AC has been called as well as the Dept of AG for YEARS on this man, who btw is a doctor. I finally got action 2 yrs ago when I was lucky enough to get a new employee on the phone at the Dept of Ag and she allowed me to send pictures to her. There were 11 horses, all at least 200 lbs underweight. I didn't know it at the time but one was laying dead at the back of the pasture. AC took several of the animals but allowed him to move half of them to another pasture! I couldn't believe it. He then went to court and because of his good standing in the community all his horses were returned to him. He has since moved and no one ever followed up. Believe me I could go on and on.... AC is totally a joke!


----------



## lmgakg

Again, my plea is this - if anyone has any thoughts or knows of anything that will make someone do something fast - outside of them actually setting up a dog fighting ring in the yard....please contact me. If there is soemthing that is illegal....something I could watch for, look for, anything. I don't know what exactly they are doing, but I would love to have them checked out....I don't know anything about breeding dogs and selling puppies, but if there are rules/laws that people need to follow - clue me in. If anyone wants to condem me of anything, start your own thread...


----------



## RachelsaurusRexU

lmgakg said:


> Again, my plea is this - if anyone has any thoughts or knows of anything that will make someone do something fast - outside of them actually setting up a dog fighting ring in the yard....please contact me. If there is soemthing that is illegal....something I could watch for, look for, anything. I don't know what exactly they are doing, but I would love to have them checked out....I don't know anything about breeding dogs and selling puppies, but if there are rules/laws that people need to follow - clue me in. If anyone wants to condem me of anything, start your own thread...


The laws are different everywhere, so if I were you I'd look yours up. Look up state statutes and look up your specific town ordinances. I'm assuming dogs at least need to be vaccinated and licensed, no? Use that. Is there a number of dogs one is allowed to keep? Sometimes towns/counties have a max number of intact dogs one is allowed to keep before applying for kennel licensing. Check zoning regulations to see if they're violating anything in that regard. Take photo or video if you're able. Arm yourself with knowledge and evidence. Go to AC with specific statutes or ordinances that are being violated. If AC won't listen to you, call the mayor. Start a neighborhood petition. Go to the media if you have to.


----------



## chowder

RachelsaurusRexU said:


> The laws are different everywhere, so if I were you I'd look yours up. Look up state statutes and look up your specific town ordinances. I'm assuming dogs at least need to be vaccinated and licensed, no? Use that. Is there a number of dogs one is allowed to keep? Sometimes towns/counties have a max number of intact dogs one is allowed to keep before applying for kennel licensing. Check zoning regulations to see if they're violating anything in that regard. Take photo or video if you're able. Arm yourself with knowledge and evidence. Go to AC with specific statutes or ordinances that are being violated. If AC won't listen to you, call the mayor. Start a neighborhood petition. Go to the media if you have to.


Those are great ideas. I know the bigger towns around here all have a 2 dog limit per house - intact or not. That would be the place to start. (Luckily I live in the county, not in any town limits!). Some places have it at 3 dogs per house. Our county also has a limit of two hour per day of tie out allowed. I saw at the website that Battle Creek has a tie out ordinance, I have no idea if that is near you, but maybe your area has a time limit on tie-out per day that you could report them for violating. You have to have a specific thing to report them for, not just a general 'they don't take care of their dogs properly'. Animal Control really has their hands tied because they can only cite people for EXACT laws broken, not generalities usually.


----------



## magicre

lmgakg said:


> Again, my plea is this - if anyone has any thoughts or knows of anything that will make someone do something fast - outside of them actually setting up a dog fighting ring in the yard....please contact me. If there is soemthing that is illegal....something I could watch for, look for, anything. I don't know what exactly they are doing, but I would love to have them checked out....I don't know anything about breeding dogs and selling puppies, but if there are rules/laws that people need to follow - clue me in. If anyone wants to condem me of anything, start your own thread...


unfortunately, unless the dogs are emaciated and diseased looking, there is little you can do.

we lived in georgia and there were two dogs chained up.

there was a bag of dog food. one could get near it and the other couldn't. however he got loose, he did and ended up on our lawn.

we had six dogs at the time....three of which we already rescued from the streets and could not take in another one.

we called the cops and the only thing they could do was go to the guy's house and tell him to feed his dog.

sad, but true.

and i guess the moral of the story, depending on where you live...is call the cops, call animal control, call the local shelters, write a letter to the editor of a newspaper or radio show...the power of the pen is still alive and well.....and tell the story until someone with a little power listens....

doesn't sound like much......dogs are considered property.....maybe even sue them in small claims court, although it might be deemed frivolous that you're suing to get the owners to care for their dog. but i think it costs under 40. to file a suit...maybe you can get onto judge judy or something. (not kidding)

it is a miserable society that what needs to be done and what can be done are so far apart.


----------



## kevin bradley

chowder said:


> Those are great ideas. I know the bigger towns around here all have a 2 dog limit per house - intact or not. That would be the place to start. (Luckily I live in the county, not in any town limits!). Some places have it at 3 dogs per house. Our county also has a limit of two hour per day of tie out allowed. I saw at the website that Battle Creek has a tie out ordinance, I have no idea if that is near you, but maybe your area has a time limit on tie-out per day that you could report them for violating. You have to have a specific thing to report them for, not just a general 'they don't take care of their dogs properly'. Animal Control really has their hands tied because they can only cite people for EXACT laws broken, not generalities usually.



Thats MY town, Chowder. Sadly, about 100 miles from St Clair Shores....

Yep, I posted earlier... alot of great people got that ordinance passed here. Doesn't stop everyone but at least we have something on the books.


----------



## lmgakg

Yes, there is a limit on how many, but because two are pups, they can get by with we are trying to adopt them out ....puppies apparently don't count when it comes to the head count. They have 2 adults, which is the limit. I will have to look up the other stuff that RachelsaurusRexU mentioned, thank you, as I said, I didn't really even know what to ask .... And BTW - RachelsaurusRexU, your dogs are adorable!!! 

Chowder - thanks....yeah, that is the problem, I hate to just call and say, I don't like what I see!!! I have tried calling and complaining about the yard and the grass and stuff, just trying to get someone out there..... 

Also - I don't want to be too obvious because I don't know what these people are capable of and don't want any retaliation or problems for my aunt!!


----------



## destinoscelgo

Caty M said:


> Plus, I see none of the 'pro tie out' people have even ADDRESSED the fact about wild animals... which is a very real concern especially for a small dog like a beagle.


Wildlife isnt an issue by me (as I stated before sort of) 
Also as I stated, Im not sure where you are from personally, but not everywhere that dogs are tied out would wildlife be an issue.

If i had decided that when I was not home and at work or something and I wanted to leave my dog out, Even if I had the best fence in the world I would keep them on the tie out. Many dogs can be excellent escape artists and I have already learned that the hard way. Even more so with the pit bull breeds my dog would be at risk if it was out of my yard. Probably more so than if he was tied out without a fence.
But remember...that is in MY area. The United States is a very diverse country (and im not talking racially) Every town, state, county or whatever is different from the next.


----------



## Cliffdog

Sorry, I was out with the dogs... You know, those poor mistreated animals that I neglect and don't spend enough time with. 


Caty M said:


> The yard where the beagle is being kept is a 5 acre yard unfenced. Sorry but that's pretty prime territory for coyotes especially with dog food being left out.


I understand that. I was explaining why *I* hadn't answered the question. I personally like to have a fence around my dogs, if I had a large unfenced property, I would be trying to save money to build a fence around a portion of it for the dogs. However, I didn't want to answer the question because it wasn't directed at me and it didn't apply to me.



DaneMama said:


> But what's wrong with building a proper enclosure for them? Possibly doing social runs with dogs who do well together? I still dont understand why you'd choose chaining all your dogs separately over at least letting them live in a secured yard....


But why? Runs do not provide anywhere near as much room and they are not anywhere near as escape proof. They are also very expensive.

Personally the fact that the dogs are separate on the chain is my favorite part. My dogs are not dogs that you want to leave alone together, and my next dogs won't be either.

I'm sorry, but dogs have lived outside for thousands of years, they are well-equipped, except certain breeds which should not be kept outside. And my personal dogs don't seem traumatized a bit. Why should something be banned just because YOU don't like it for YOUR dogs and YOUR situation?

I have friends whose dogs are their entire life, not unlike mine. They aren't bad people or owners just because they utilize a proper chain setup.


----------



## kevin bradley

Cliffdog said:


> I'm sorry, but dogs have lived outside for thousands of years, they are well-equipped, except certain breeds which should not be kept outside. And my personal dogs don't seem traumatized a bit. Why should something be banned just because YOU don't like it for YOUR dogs and YOUR situation?


Cliff,

You live in Alabama. I assure you, not many Dogs are "equipped" to survive where some of us live. 

I have some horrific stories I could share you about Dogs who "Love" living outside in the snow--or so their owners THOUGHT they did. 

I realize you didn't intend to sum up all situations... but to say that Dogs are "equipped" to live outside is a complex statement. Depends on the area of the country, the breed, etc...


----------



## Cliffdog

kevin bradley said:


> Cliff,
> 
> You live in Alabama. I assure you, not many Dogs are "equipped" to survive where some of us live.
> 
> I have some horrific stories I could share you about Dogs who "Love" living outside in the snow--or so their owners THOUGHT they did.
> 
> I realize you didn't intend to sum up all situations... but to say that Dogs are "equipped" to live outside is a complex statement. Depends on the area of the country, the breed, etc...


I did mention breed, if you look. If I lived in completely ideal weather situations 24/7/365, I still wouldn't leave a chihuahua outside.
As for weather, I know people who live in mid Florida who have a pool per chain spot in the shade for the dogs to cool off in, and their older dog has a mist fan, for summer. For winter they pack the doghouse tight with straw and cedar (cedar only in the summer btw, cedar has natural insect repellent properties) and if the dog house is the right size (big enough for the dog to get up and turn around, no bigger) and has a flap over the door, the dog's body heat will warm up the house, not unlike sled dogs burrowing in the snow. There are folks who have insulated their dog houses as well, which also helps cool the house down in the winter.

Now, obviously there are limits... but it takes pretty extreme temperatures for most working-type dogs, which have often been bred to handle weather.


----------



## chowder

I will have to chime in because I own a rescue dog who was raised for 3 years tied up in someones backyard with his brother in NC before they brought him to the rescue group. (Shade). When we got him he was :

1. petrified of any loud noises 
2. totally untrained , marked everywhere
3. petrified of sudden movements 
4. very hyperactive 
5. bowlegged 
6. had sores on his elbows 
7. dug 
8. destroyed things like the deck, garden tools, sheetrock, door frames, etc
9. ate bizarre things (socks, jeans,) 
10. countersurfed, stole food from the other dogs and anywhere he could 

Now he is no longer bowlegged, gets to run free in a yard, doesn't eat bizarre things, is let loose free in a house all day and all night and doesn't destroy anything at all, no longer counter surfs, and we can even leave a trash bag out and he doesn't touch it. Heck, I've left raw chicken on the counter and he won't touch it now! The only remnant of his tie-out days we can't cure is his total fear of thunder and gunshots and fireworks. They set him in a panic still. 

So, being tied out all day is no picnic for some dogs. Ask Shade.


----------



## DaneMama

Just because a dog is equipped to handle extreme weather doesn't mean they should. Just sayin' :frown:


----------



## APBTlove

I'm sorry but I just have to chime in in regards to this whole chaining debate.

What we seem to be forgetting here is there is a difference between a dog that is put out on a chain with little to no food and water, who has no shelter and is neglected or abused. And the dog that is on a chain spot for its own safety, who has access to food, water, shelter, love, attention, regular walks and exercise.

I know some people who do keep their dogs on a chain spot. Some are outside dogs that don't live in the house but still have attention, food, water, shelter. And some that live inside but when they are outside they are on a chainspot or tie out. Why for their own safety. Believe it or not, some breeds are just escape artists. Pit Bulls in particular are notorious escapte artists, I'd say Huskies, and Jack Russel Terriers are up there on the list to. I don't chain my dog and I probably wouldn't because I never let my dog outside out of my sight. But when I was a kid I had a Shih Tzu that whenever he was outside he was on a tie out? Why you ask. He might have well been named Houdini because he was a master escape artist. We had a fence. He could fit under a whole smaller than a rat could go through. He learned to jump it. Forget the kennel run he could squeeze through the smallest opening imaginable. The only thing that kept him in the yard was to be on a tie out. He was happy and spoiled as hell but when he was outside he had to be on a tie out.

All I am saying is: Would you perfer the dogs to be running loose or would you prefer the owner to keep the dog secured in its own yard with a tie out or chain spot. Seriously dogs running loose getting injured or killed or potentially causing trouble. Or dogs kept safe and secure in their own yards.

Just something to think about.


----------



## caprisun

so here is my experience..

I have a dog that occasionaly gets chained when I'm home.
not in direct supervision (as I'm upstairs) but I do see him from where I'm at by just turning my head

he spends about 4 hours a day there when it's nice outside (I'm not gonna bath him every day) and he does great there.
we cannot (by law) fence high enough for him to be contained properly so I have to do with what I got.

I'm about to build him a *proper "chain setup" (zipline) *so that I won't have to watch him from a distance while he's on it but just relax inside without having to worry and check every 2 minutes and so he could spend some of the summer/spring nights outside
*he won't be chained near a fence or tree* to prevent hanging and we'll use (like Muttkip) *a zipline to give him more space*.
don't see what horrible things could happen to him honestly.. *we don't have any type of predator around *(except the human kind) but they tend to stay out of our yards so..

if that makes me a bad or sucky owner to a couple of folks.. well that surely won't keep me from sleeping at night


----------



## Cliffdog

chowder said:


> I will have to chime in because I own a rescue dog who was raised for 3 years tied up in someones backyard with his brother in NC before they brought him to the rescue group. (Shade). When we got him he was :
> 
> 1. petrified of any loud noises
> 2. totally untrained , marked everywhere
> 3. petrified of sudden movements
> 4. very hyperactive
> 5. bowlegged
> 6. had sores on his elbows
> 7. dug
> 8. destroyed things like the deck, garden tools, sheetrock, door frames, etc
> 9. ate bizarre things (socks, jeans,)
> 10. countersurfed, stole food from the other dogs and anywhere he could
> 
> Now he is no longer bowlegged, gets to run free in a yard, doesn't eat bizarre things, is let loose free in a house all day and all night and doesn't destroy anything at all, no longer counter surfs, and we can even leave a trash bag out and he doesn't touch it. Heck, I've left raw chicken on the counter and he won't touch it now! The only remnant of his tie-out days we can't cure is his total fear of thunder and gunshots and fireworks. They set him in a panic still.
> 
> So, being tied out all day is no picnic for some dogs. Ask Shade.


I don't think anyone here is promoting that kind of chaining, and it's been said multiple times that tie-outs can be abused. So can kennels. So can crates. So can _leashes_, for Christ's sake. That doesn't mean there isn't a proper way to use these tools.

By the way, I know 100% inside dogs who are afraid of loud noises; are untrained and urinate in the house; are afraid when people make sudden moves; don't get enough exercise so they are hyper; have health problems (like obesity) as a direct result of how they are kept; have scrapes, sores, and burns; dig in the yard and are destructive in the house; eat bizarre things (know of quite a few who got blockages and either died or needed surgery); and countersurfed. Those things can happen indoors and out. Don't blame the chain.


----------



## Cliffdog

Good post APBTlove.



caprisun said:


> if that makes me a bad or sucky owner to a couple of folks.. well that surely won't keep me from sleeping at night


My feelings as well, but I try to enlighten people about what I do, how I do it, and why, because ignorance leads to anti-tethering laws.


----------



## APBTlove

caprisun said:


> so here is my experience..
> 
> I have a dog that occasionaly gets chained when I'm home.
> not in direct supervision (as I'm upstairs) but I do see him from where I'm at by just turning my head
> 
> he spends about 4 hours a day there when it's nice outside (I'm not gonna bath him every day) and he does great there.
> we cannot (by law) fence high enough for him to be contained properly so I have to do with what I got.
> 
> I'm about to build him a *proper "chain setup" (zipline) *so that I won't have to watch him from a distance while he's on it but just relax inside without having to worry and check every 2 minutes and so he could spend some of the summer/spring nights outside
> *he won't be chained near a fence or tree* to prevent hanging and we'll use (like Muttkip) *a zipline to give him more space*.
> don't see what horrible things could happen to him honestly.. *we don't have any type of predator around *(except the human kind) but they tend to stay out of our yards so..
> 
> if that makes me a bad or sucky owner to a couple of folks.. well that surely won't keep me from sleeping at night



You are not a bad owner. You sound like a pretty good one. Atleast your dog is getting some safe outside time which i am sure your dog enjoys


----------



## APBTlove

Cliffdog said:


> I don't think anyone here is promoting that kind of chaining, and it's been said multiple times that tie-outs can be abused. So can kennels. So can crates. So can _leashes_, for Christ's sake. That doesn't mean there isn't a proper way to use these tools.
> 
> By the way, I know 100% inside dogs who are afraid of loud noises; are untrained and urinate in the house; are afraid when people make sudden moves; don't get enough exercise so they are hyper; have health problems (like obesity) as a direct result of how they are kept; have scrapes, sores, and burns; dig in the yard and are destructive in the house; eat bizarre things (know of quite a few who got blockages and either died or needed surgery); and countersurfed. Those things can happen indoors and out. Don't blame the chain.



Well said and very true. Its importand regardless of the tool that its used properly. I knew a dog that spend the first 4 years of her life in a cage. Only let out for maybe an hour a day. Owners just didn't have time for her and didn't have time to train her so she spent all her time in the crate. She ended up at the rescue and it took a long time to get her to come out of her shell and to trust people. Once someone spent a little time with her she was so easy to train. This dog was smart. If they had just taken the time to train her, 4 years of her life wouldn't have been wasted.


----------



## RachelsaurusRexU

LOL. Clearly, Cliff has sent a pro-chaining army here from one of his other forums! 

I'm getting annoyed with all of the email notifications and redundancy at this point, and clearly none of it helps Lisa, the OP, so this is my cue to unsubscribe. Good luck in getting some help for those poor dogs. If you think I can assist you any further, feel free to PM me!


----------



## Cliffdog

RachelsaurusRexU said:


> LOL. Clearly, Cliff has sent a pro-chaining army here from one of his other forums!


I'm flattered you think I did that.


----------



## caprisun

actually, I'm here for help on starting with raw feeding..

now if you have any problem with that, feel free to PM me 

my dog doesn't need any help other than with his new diet, and he certainly doesn't need it from someone that ignorant and rude to people they don't even know!
what a warm welcome..


----------



## caprisun

ohh.. and another thing..
you justify your view of chaining by saying "if it wasn't cruel they wouldn't make laws against it"

well if pitbulls (which is what your dog appears to be?) weren't dangerous we would have no BSL law.

law isn't much of an argument as there are a LOT of laws that have no sence existing..


----------



## hmbutler

Caty M said:


> I already said it's a downside of having to have a full time job which I am sure 99.9% of us have to have. At least they are still getting in a solid 16 hours of time when you are within touchable distance of them. Not happening with a tied outside dog.
> 
> And that is one of the reasons why I got a second dog. :wink:


i'm trying so hard to get the husband to say yes to a second dog, so duke has his pack while we are at work... but it's not working  i'm aiming for one of two beautiful dogs at our local rescue, a 10 month great dane cross, or a 5 month boxer cross (i think linsey and natalie would approve of these breeds haha). I know steven has always loved boxers, so I'm trying to use the breed to swing him, but so far no luck


----------



## swolek

caprisun said:


> so here is my experience..
> 
> I have a dog that occasionaly gets chained when I'm home.
> not in direct supervision (as I'm upstairs) but I do see him from where I'm at by just turning my head
> 
> he spends about 4 hours a day there when it's nice outside (I'm not gonna bath him every day) and he does great there.
> we cannot (by law) fence high enough for him to be contained properly so I have to do with what I got.
> 
> I'm about to build him a *proper "chain setup" (zipline) *so that I won't have to watch him from a distance while he's on it but just relax inside without having to worry and check every 2 minutes and so he could spend some of the summer/spring nights outside
> *he won't be chained near a fence or tree* to prevent hanging and we'll use (like Muttkip) *a zipline to give him more space*.
> don't see what horrible things could happen to him honestly.. *we don't have any type of predator around *(except the human kind) but they tend to stay out of our yards so..
> 
> if that makes me a bad or sucky owner to a couple of folks.. well that surely won't keep me from sleeping at night


That actually doesn't sound like what people on here have a problem with so I don't know why you're so defensive. Four hours while you're home when the weather is nice is not the same as 24-7 without supervision. Very few people on here would have an issue with a dog being outside for a little while, especially when you can easily see him. I didn't use a tie-out but my Dachshund used to spend several hours a day (in good weather, like you do) in his dog run while I was home. He was easily watched from the window and loved playing out there. My Cockers also sometimes spend a bit of time in the run or on a long lead when I'm outside with them (either for play or when I'm gardening/weeding/raking/etc.).


----------



## caprisun

what about that post sounds defensive?
I said "so here is my experience" this wasn't any sort of rant or whatever you guys seem to think..?


----------



## UnionJack

WOW... There are people out there who actually believe people who have their dogs living outside are somehow cruel? Seriously? Quit humanizing your dogs, folks. It's a *dog.* Not a child. If you consider your dog to be your child, then... Imo, there's something wrong with you. My current dog is a pet, and she's lived inside all of her life... So when I move, she will continue living inside. However, every dog I have in the future will most likely be a completely outside animal. I dislike having dog hair covering my home. "Well, why own a dog?" you may ask... Because, uh, I like them? That doesn't mean I have to agree to having my home covered in fur, LOL. I feed them, shelter them, take them to the vet, groom them, and exercise them. I don't owe than anything more than that. Whatever else I decide to *give *them, is just that, a gift. 

I don't like dogs being underfoot at all times. I don't like dogs being on my furniture. I do, however, love working animals, and competition, and when I decide to purchase a working dog, he'll most likely be living outside... Does that mean he won't get attention? No. But he sure as hell won't be comin' in my house! Dogs aren't children, they do not need to be around people 24/7. Obviously I'm going to work him, condition him, etc. for a GOOD portion of the day, but... Yeah, I'm fine with leaving 'em outside. Throw them a meaty bone or something, they'll entertain themselves for a good while. And, chances are, I'll be out there with him. I like being outside, and I like hanging out with my dog.

Just because a dog lives outside =/= he isn't getting 'attention'. He's just not around you ALL. DAY. LONG. And I don't see a thing wrong with that. Just because you don't devote all of your time to your dog if you're not at work, you're a bad dog owner? LOL. Good logic there, folks.


----------



## destinoscelgo

caprisun said:


> ohh.. and another thing..
> you justify your view of chaining by saying "if it wasn't cruel they wouldn't make laws against it"
> 
> well if pitbulls (which is what your dog appears to be?) weren't dangerous we would have no BSL law.
> 
> law isn't much of an argument as *there are a LOT of laws that have no sence existing..*


like how apparently in new york it is illegal to wear slippers after 10:00 pm?


----------



## CorgiPaws

Neat. We got a hoard of newbies that have their pets live on chains. 
I wonder who could have set that one up.

And I did not see ANYONE say that letting dogs outside was cruel. Dogs need to be outside sometimes. They are after all animals. I'd say someone who NEVER lets their dog outside is ALMOST as terrible as someone whose dogs live on chains.


----------



## caprisun

may I ask who your post is directed at?


----------



## CorgiPaws

caprisun said:


> may I ask who your post is directed at?


ask all you want.

I saw the thread on PBC before it was removed. :wink:


----------



## Caty M

UnionJack said:


> WOW... There are people out there who actually believe people who have their dogs living outside are somehow cruel? Seriously? Quit humanizing your dogs, folks. It's a *dog.* Not a child. If you consider your dog to be your child, then... Imo, there's something wrong with you. My current dog is a pet, and she's lived inside all of her life... So when I move, she will continue living inside. However, every dog I have in the future will most likely be a completely outside animal. I dislike having dog hair covering my home. "Well, why own a dog?" you may ask... Because, uh, I like them? That doesn't mean I have to agree to having my home covered in fur, LOL. I feed them, shelter them, take them to the vet, groom them, and exercise them. I don't owe than anything more than that. Whatever else I decide to *give *them, is just that, a gift.
> 
> I don't like dogs being underfoot at all times. I don't like dogs being on my furniture. I do, however, love working animals, and competition, and when I decide to purchase a working dog, he'll most likely be living outside... Does that mean he won't get attention? No. But he sure as hell won't be comin' in my house! Dogs aren't children, they do not need to be around people 24/7. Obviously I'm going to work him, condition him, etc. for a GOOD portion of the day, but... Yeah, I'm fine with leaving 'em outside. Throw them a meaty bone or something, they'll entertain themselves for a good while. And, chances are, I'll be out there with him. I like being outside, and I like hanging out with my dog.
> 
> Just because a dog lives outside =/= he isn't getting 'attention'. He's just not around you ALL. DAY. LONG. And I don't see a thing wrong with that. Just because you don't devote all of your time to your dog if you're not at work, you're a bad dog owner? LOL. Good logic there, folks.


I don't know why people can't seem to get it through their heads that a dog is a social animal. They are not naturally away from their pack for the majority of the day. That's fine if you don't want your dogs on the furniture- TRAIN THEM.. I personally feel having a dog is not a human right... if you can't provide the basics one of which is LOVE which you seem to have none of for your dog (other than apparently your love for competition) you shouldn't have a living, breathing animal. Just because a dog is not a human doesn't mean it's not capable of emotion.


----------



## DaneMama

Uh yeah. Time for this thread to be put to sleep.


----------

