# Food finding issues



## MarkM (Apr 4, 2013)

What dog food brands from your local pet co, pet smart, or tractor supply have these food requirements: 28% protein, 18% fat, at least 1% calcium and phosphorus, and majority meat products? Keep in mind, I have a 6 month old dog, and 14 week old dog. Thanks, I would appreciate it. My wife and I are still trying to get a good quality food with those requirements. We looked all day yesterday and found maybe one or two but no calcium or phosphorus percentages on it. And the reason why we are looking for these specific requirements is because that's what we have researched and found that to be the best for a large breed pup. Thanks. Much appreciated. 

Ps- dry food


----------



## 1605 (May 27, 2009)

MarkM said:


> What dog food brands from your local pet co, pet smart, or tractor supply have these food requirements: 28% protein, 18% fat, at least 1% calcium and phosphorus, and majority meat products? Keep in mind, I have a 6 month old dog, and 14 week old dog. Thanks, I would appreciate it. My wife and I are still trying to get a good quality food with those requirements. We looked all day yesterday and found maybe one or two but no calcium or phosphorus percentages on it. And the reason why we are looking for these specific requirements is because that's what we have researched and found that to be the best for a large breed pup. Thanks. Much appreciated.
> 
> Ps- dry food


Can you supply more information about the breed of dogs you own? For example, often people are mislead into believing they have a "large breed puppy" when it is in fact is not. E.g.: lab or similar.


----------



## MarkM (Apr 4, 2013)

He is a Rottweiler mix. Mixed with shar pei as far as we know. We are getting a DNA test done and will have the results in a few weeks. We also have a jackabee.


----------



## brindle (Mar 14, 2013)

MarkM said:


> He is a Rottweiler mix. Mixed with shar pei as far as we know. We are getting a DNA test done and will have the results in a few weeks. We also have a jackabee.


That wouldn't technically be a "large breed" that requires strict phos/cal ratios in my opinion. "Large" would be Great Dane, Mastiff, Irish Wolfhound, St Bernard and dogs of the like. Your dog should mature between 70-90 pounds and you can comfortably feed almost any all life stage foods. 
I like Healthwise, Horizon (Complete and Legacy... have yet to use Pulsar), Now, Nutram, Nutrisource.
I've also heard amazing things about Dr. Tim's and Annamaet formulas, although I haven't been able to acquire these brands (regrettably).


----------



## MarkM (Apr 4, 2013)

Believe it or not, I did research on Rottweilers and they for some reason are under "mastiff" which was shocking. I had a Rottweiler ages ago and he grew to 180 pounds at his best. But I was always told Rottweilers are medium to large breed, most on the larger. I have been told I think 55+ pounds is large and 100+ is giant breed. Where can I find those foods? Also I'm kinda thinking my Rottweiler mix might be smaller because of the shar pei mix.


----------



## brindle (Mar 14, 2013)

MarkM said:


> Believe it or not, I did research on Rottweilers and they for some reason are under "mastiff" which was shocking. I had a Rottweiler ages ago and he grew to 180 pounds at his best. But I was always told Rottweilers are medium to large breed, most on the larger. I have been told I think 55+ pounds is large and 100+ is giant breed. Where can I find those foods? Also I'm kinda thinking my Rottweiler mix might be smaller because of the shar pei mix.


That's what I was also thinking. I know some Rottweilers can get ginormous depending on the bloodline. Generally though, they are around 70 pounds give or take 10. 
Healthwise makes a puppy formula that is a 29 protein and 18 fat. It has 1.59% calcium-- Healthy Pet Product Search ? Organic Dog Food, Dog Treats and More ? Natura Pet Products
It has a very decent price point and is doing wonder with my dog who tends to be sensitive. I have her on the Lamb and Oatmeal formula which is a 27 protein 16 fat with 2% calcium-- Healthy Pet Product Search ? Organic Dog Food, Dog Treats and More ? Natura Pet Products
FYI- there was a recall that occurred recently for salmonella. It was taken care of quickly and efficiency and all bags recalled are stated on the website I believe. I don't know if this effects your opinion of then, however. Just means you should wash your hands after handling kibble (which should be done anyway).


----------



## MarkM (Apr 4, 2013)

Yeah that is very true. Where do I find these foods?


----------



## brindle (Mar 14, 2013)

MarkM said:


> Yeah that is very true. Where do I find these foods?


Any specialty dog/cat food shop in your area. A tractor supply may carry them but I wouldn't know as I am in Canada and we don't have tractor supply. 
Just call around and ask if any local places sell it! My dogs coat is shiny, she has the best teeth/breath she's ever had, her poop is small and compact... I really like it. I always thought, the more you spend, the more you get out of the food. Thus far, this hasn't been the case for my girl!
Horizon Complete is another food I LOVE. There is a large breed puppy that is 28/14 formula with a 1.1% calcium-- 
Complete | Horizon


----------



## brindle (Mar 14, 2013)

Nutrisource makes a large breed puppy that is a 26/14 but the website doesn't state the calcium level-- Large Breed Puppy Chicken and Rice Formula Dog Food
I'm sure you could contact them and ask!


----------



## MarkM (Apr 4, 2013)

I thought the best foods to look for were 28 protein and 18 fat or better?


----------



## MarkM (Apr 4, 2013)

Ok, also I've heard LBP foods were no good


----------



## brindle (Mar 14, 2013)

MarkM said:


> I thought the best foods to look for were 28 protein and 18 fat or better?


I honestly don't know much about giant breed dogs (which I wouldn't say yours is), I had a foster St Bernard for a short time and he was fed Dog Chow adult formula (not my most shining moment) and he did very well. 
I would say that your dog will tell you if he isn't doing well on it- itching, large/loose bowel movements, flakey/dry or oily skin and fur... these are signs that the food may not be the best for him. 
I feed a rotation of foods and add toppers- tripe (raw and canned), gr beef (raw or cooked), turkey necks, chicken quarters, sardines, eggs etc. 
She never really gets the same thing every day  
Your dog is a pup and if you are determined to go the "large breed" route then someone else will have to chime in as I have little experience.


----------



## monster'sdad (Jul 29, 2012)

MarkM said:


> I thought the best foods to look for were 28 protein and 18 fat or better?


In answer to your question, if you want to shop at Petco, Petsmart or TS and want a higher protein and fat food, it is a no brainer.

Eukanuba Premium Performance 28/18 or 30/20 (might not be stocked)
Pro Plan Sport 28/18 or 30/20 (always in stock)
Pro Plan Selects Turkey or Chicken 

Both of these have very controlled calcium and phosphorous and I would have no trouble using either on any large breed puppy so long as you watch the pups weight. All 4 of those are All Life Stages Foods.

Either of those 28/18's would make excellent puppy foods in particular. The Pro Plan Selects foods are good too but I wouldn't spend the extra dough on them.


----------



## brindle (Mar 14, 2013)

monster'sdad said:


> In answer to your question, if you want to shop at Petco, Petsmart or TS and want a higher protein and fat food, it is a no brainer.
> 
> Eukanuba Premium Performance 28/18 or 30/20 (might not be stocked)
> Pro Plan Sport 28/18 or 30/20 (always in stock)
> ...


You know monstersdad, you are making me curious about these formulas. Truly. 
The only thing is the menadione. Why can't they make formulas without it?


----------



## 1605 (May 27, 2009)

MarkM said:


> He is a Rottweiler mix. Mixed with shar pei as far as we know. We are getting a DNA test done and will have the results in a few weeks. We also have a jackabee.





brindle said:


> That wouldn't technically be a "large breed" that requires strict phos/cal ratios in my opinion. "Large" would be Great Dane, Mastiff, Irish Wolfhound, St Bernard and dogs of the like. Your dog should mature between 70-90 pounds and you can comfortably feed almost any all life stage foods.
> I like Healthwise, Horizon (Complete and Legacy... have yet to use Pulsar), Now, Nutram, Nutrisource.
> I've also heard amazing things about Dr. Tim's and Annamaet formulas, although I haven't been able to acquire these brands (regrettably).


I would tend to agree that while some Rotties can be hefty, they are not what I would consider a "large breed". My neighbour's Harlequin Great Dane is a "large breed", not my 58-60lb GSPs.


----------



## brindle (Mar 14, 2013)

SubMariner said:


> I would tend to agree that while some Rotties can be hefty, they are not what I would consider a "large breed". My neighbour's Harlequin Great Dane is a "large breed", not my 58-60lb GSPs.


I've seen people with Rottweilers that are extremely obese and they say "they aren't fat, they are husky"... smh. 
Fat is fat. Some dogs that should be 70 pounds do weigh 120 pounds, because they are fat not because they are a "large breed".


----------



## monster'sdad (Jul 29, 2012)

brindle said:


> You know monstersdad, you are making me curious about these formulas. Truly.
> The only thing is the menadione. Why can't they make formulas without it?


Well there has never been a reported issue on K3 in close to 50 years of using it. The whole scare was started by Sabine Contreras based on a rat study where it was injected, not eaten, at 6,000 times what a dog would eat. The anemia that followed was the type a dog gets from eating too much garlic, it is not anything specific to K3.

If you wanna laugh, the only reports of toxicity in dogs happened with the natural forms of vitamin K while under Vet's care.

I know other companies took it out, but only because they got sick of the phone calls and emails. K3 is the only form approved for use, namely because it is water soluble.

To be blunt, if Dr. Tim or Annamaet put it back in because they were afraid of the dog not getting enough I would probably be happy.

The whole thing was just a big scare started by Sabine Contreras and amplified by the internet. Even some holistic food companies support the use.

www.azmira.com/support/article-the-latest-scare-menadione-k3.pdf

I simply cannot understand the reluctance of people on forums like this to simple accept that professionals use Pro Plan and Eukanuba because they are good foods. Even if some big kennels get sponsored, could you imagine someone knowingly using a bad food after spending all that time and money finishing a dog for shows, agility or field trial events just to save a few hundred bucks a year on food? Totally absurd.


----------



## brindle (Mar 14, 2013)

MarkM said:


> Ok, also I've heard LBP foods were no good


I don't know what to tell you. Maybe join a Rottweiler forum and ask what they feed their dogs. Yet again, I don't consider a Rottweiler (especially mixed with Shar Pei) a large breed dog. 
Did you get a chance to see the parents at all by any chance?


----------



## brindle (Mar 14, 2013)

monster'sdad said:


> Well there has never been a reported issue on K3 in close to 50 years of using it. The whole scare was started by Sabine Contreras based on a rat study where it was injected at 6,000 times what a dog would eat. The anemia that followed was the type a dog gets from eating too much garlic, it is not anything specific to K3.
> 
> If you wanna laugh, the only reports of toxicity in dogs happened with the natural forms of vitamin K while under Vet's care.
> 
> ...


Do you possibly have a link to this rat study?
Off topic (sorry OP), but what do you think of this study? http://www.dogfoodproject.com/index.php?page=menadione
It freaks me out.


----------



## DaViking (Sep 27, 2011)

There is no justification *either way* to why K3 receive the amount of attention it does. It can be dropped all together or it can be included. There are many other aspects of dog food that is way more important.


----------



## monster'sdad (Jul 29, 2012)

brindle said:


> Do you possibly have a link to this rat study?
> Off topic (sorry OP), but what do you think of this study? The Dog Food Project - Menadione (Vitamin K3)
> It freaks me out.


That is Sabine Contreras who I mentioned. She is by no means an expert. She has a Certificate in Animal Care, which is like a 6 month course, something like that. She makes money by charging for personal consultations. 

At the end of that she makes a point of saying, K3 is not approved for human use, but who cares, because in certain countries neither are the natural forms. Canada for example doesn't allow the sale of any form of vitamin K for human use. The rat study she cites is in there somewhere.

I think Purina continues to use it because its sees no downside to using it.


----------



## brindle (Mar 14, 2013)

monster'sdad said:


> That is Sabine Contreras who I mentioned. She is by no means an expert. At the end of that she makes a point of saying, K3 is not approved for human use, but who cares, because in certain countries neither are the natural forms. Canada for example doesn't allow the sale of any form of vitamin K for human use. The rat study she cites is in there somewhere.


I just started a menadione thread in the ingredient section so as not to derail the OP's thread any further. Please give me your opinion there  I'm genuinely curious.


----------



## brindle (Mar 14, 2013)

DaViking said:


> There is no justification *either way* to why K3 receive the amount of attention it does. It can be dropped all together or it can be included. There are many other aspects of dog food that is way more important.


Can you delve further into what you mean in the new thread I started in the ingredients section? I'm fascinated.


----------



## Georgiapeach (Jan 24, 2011)

How about Precise Large/Giant Breed Puppy Growth Formula: Precise Pet Products | Large & Giant Breed Puppy? It seems to follow more of what you're looking for.


----------



## MarkM (Apr 4, 2013)

monster'sdad said:


> In answer to your question, if you want to shop at Petco, Petsmart or TS and want a higher protein and fat food, it is a no brainer.
> 
> Eukanuba Premium Performance 28/18 or 30/20 (might not be stocked)
> Pro Plan Sport 28/18 or 30/20 (always in stock)
> ...


We saw those brands and thought about it, but then we saw they had meat by products, which we heard were bad.


----------



## MarkM (Apr 4, 2013)

brindle said:


> I've seen people with Rottweilers that are extremely obese and they say "they aren't fat, they are husky"... smh.
> Fat is fat. Some dogs that should be 70 pounds do weigh 120 pounds, because they are fat not because they are a "large breed".


When I was younger I had a nice lean 180 pound Rottweiler. He wasn't fat, or obese. He had a waste line and could feel his ribs.


----------



## MarkM (Apr 4, 2013)

brindle said:


> I don't know what to tell you. Maybe join a Rottweiler forum and ask what they feed their dogs. Yet again, I don't consider a Rottweiler (especially mixed with Shar Pei) a large breed dog.
> Did you get a chance to see the parents at all by any chance?


No.. That was a terrible accident on us. We were told he was pure rottie.. Parents were "in boarding".. "No papers".. But we did go on a Rottweiler forum, full of jerks and ignorance.


----------



## PDXdogmom (Jun 30, 2010)

You will not find a kibble labeled "large breed puppy" food that contains 18% fat. I've seen them range anywhere from 9% to maybe one at 17% with the majority clustering around 14% fat.

I think an "all life stages" food with the appropriate guaranteed analysis could work well for both dogs. I have large dogs and I keep the 26% protein and 16% fat as my lowest levels when looking at dog food. Right now, I've very happy with a 30/16 formula I'm feeding.


----------



## monster'sdad (Jul 29, 2012)

MarkM said:


> We saw those brands and thought about it, but then we saw they had meat by products, which we heard were bad.


Well that is not correct information.


----------



## DaViking (Sep 27, 2011)

MarkM said:


> We saw those brands and thought about it, but then we saw they had meat by products, which we heard were bad.


Here's how I look at it. A) Named by-product meals are fine, their digestibility is usually equal to a "pure" meal but the amino acid spread can be better because they usually include organs. B) Meat by-product meal can be a little bit all over the place, use caution if you don't know the formula/brand or have a qualified recommendation. C) Meat & Bone meals are usually of lesser/poor quality, avoid.


----------



## doggiedad (Jan 23, 2011)

natural vitamin K can be found in meat, fruit and vegetables. why use synthetic?



monster'sdad said:


> Well there has never been a reported issue on K3 in close to 50 years of using it. The whole scare was started by Sabine Contreras based on a rat study where it was injected, not eaten, at 6,000 times what a dog would eat. The anemia that followed was the type a dog gets from eating too much garlic, it is not anything specific to K3.
> 
> If you wanna laugh, the only reports of toxicity in dogs happened with the natural forms of vitamin K while under Vet's care.
> 
> ...


----------



## Georgiapeach (Jan 24, 2011)

By-products can contain any animal part other than actual meat: beaks, feathers, feet, as well as organs and bone. I'd rather not pay good money for that stuff. If it was just organs and bone, I'd be fine with it.


----------



## monster'sdad (Jul 29, 2012)

Georgiapeach said:


> By-products can contain any animal part other than actual meat: beaks, feathers, feet, as well as organs and bone. I'd rather not pay good money for that stuff. If it was just organs and bone, I'd be fine with it.


What is wrong with heads, necks & feet? If bone is ok like you said, why aren't feet? 

There are no feathers in the grades use for pets by the way.

I think you are using an emotional argument rather than a nutritional argument.

Is skin ok?


----------



## DaViking (Sep 27, 2011)

Georgiapeach said:


> By-products can contain any animal part other than actual meat: beaks, feathers, feet, as well as organs and bone. I'd rather not pay good money for that stuff. If it was just organs and bone, I'd be fine with it.


But it doesn't and that's what matters in the end. I've said this hundred times AAFCO is not Paula Dean, it's not a recipe book for dog food, it's the bare minimum or maximum. Look the various products online and you'll see that they contain close to zero beaks, feathers, feet and very little bone. Some low ash by-product meals have even better digestibility than pure petfood grade named meals. That means all those "nasty" parts ppl online like to cry about are nowhere to be found. It's simply not reality, unless we're talking bargain basement brands that is. A meal with beaks, feathers and feet would test awefull in terms of digestibility.


----------



## monster'sdad (Jul 29, 2012)

DaViking said:


> Look the various products online and you'll see that they contain close to zero beaks, feathers, feet and very little bone. Some low ash by-product meals have even better digestibility than pure petfood grade named meals. That means all those "nasty" parts ppl online like to cry about are nowhere to be found. It's simply not reality, unless we're talking bargain basement brands that is. A meal with beaks, feathers and feet would test awefull in terms of digestibility.


This is all true, 100%, to anyone that would actually care to think about it. The grades used in even feed store brands use skin, organs, the digestive tract and some meat. That is why the ash is so much lower. 

Tim, digestibility of feet is quite good actually.

This is purely emotional, there is no logic at all in the by-product phobia. Other than the feathers, there is no part of a chicken that shouldn't be eaten.

And by the way, the dog will agree because by-product meal is far more palatable.


----------



## MarkM (Apr 4, 2013)

PDXdogmom said:


> You will not find a kibble labeled "large breed puppy" food that contains 18% fat. I've seen them range anywhere from 9% to maybe one at 17% with the majority clustering around 14% fat.
> 
> I think an "all life stages" food with the appropriate guaranteed analysis could work well for both dogs. I have large dogs and I keep the 26% protein and 16% fat as my lowest levels when looking at dog food. Right now, I've very happy with a 30/16 formula I'm feeding.


We have noticed that with LBP food. We don't want that. Just something our puppies can eat with those requirements. What food do you buy?


----------



## MarkM (Apr 4, 2013)

monster'sdad said:


> Well that is not correct information.


How is it not?


----------



## monster'sdad (Jul 29, 2012)

MarkM said:


> How is it not?


First, they both use a combination of fresh chicken, chicken or turkey by products, fish and egg, and no meat by products. Second, think about it, do you really believe that chicken skin, organs, the digestive tract, undeveloped eggs, chicken necks and feet are bad to feed a dog? If the words I just wrote were used instead of the word "by-product" would you feel different? People get all emotional about the word "chicken by product" but in Asia chicken feet are eaten every day by people, but somehow we get all upset that they are in dog food. 

Outside of poultry, did you know that something labelled "lamb meal", "beef meal", "fish meal" or even "bison meal" can contain by-products without telling the consumer?


----------



## MarkM (Apr 4, 2013)

monster'sdad said:


> First, they both use a combination of fresh chicken, chicken or turkey by products, fish and egg, and no meat by products. Second, think about it, do you really believe that chicken skin, organs, the digestive tract, undeveloped eggs, chicken necks and feet are bad to feed a dog? If the words I just wrote were used instead of the word "by-product" would you feel different? People get all emotional about the word "chicken by product" but in Asia chicken feet are eaten every day by people, but somehow we get all upset that they are in dog food.
> 
> Outside of poultry, did you know that something labelled "lamb meal", "beef meal", "fish meal" or even "bison meal" can contain by-products without telling the consumer?


So what kind of ingredients should I not look for in a food?


----------



## monster'sdad (Jul 29, 2012)

MarkM said:


> So what kind of ingredients should I not look for in a food?


Look at ash levels as way to determine if the quality of ingredients is good. I would make decisions based the expertise of the company and the nutrition provided by the formula not so much the ingredients.

You asked for some ideas on 28/18 or better foods with low calcium and phosphorous and I gave you two of the best brands that are easy to find at Petco or Petsmart.


----------



## MarkM (Apr 4, 2013)

monster'sdad said:


> Look at ash levels as way to determine if the quality of ingredients is good. I would make decisions based the expertise of the company and the nutrition provided by the formula not so much the ingredients.
> 
> You asked for some ideas on 28/18 or better foods with low calcium and phosphorous and I gave you two of the best brands that are easy to find at Petco or Petsmart.


What Exactly is ash levels? Where do I find it? 

Also, thanks. We will look into those brands.


----------



## Georgiapeach (Jan 24, 2011)

MarkM said:


> What Exactly is ash levels? Where do I find it?


Here's an article that explains it: Why Is There Ash in Your Dog's Food?. Sometimes it's hard to determine w/out contacting the dog food company and asking.


----------



## MarkM (Apr 4, 2013)

I read that article... I don't completely understand it.


----------



## monster'sdad (Jul 29, 2012)

MarkM said:


> I read that article... I don't completely understand it.



Well I will keep the answer to a health concern. "Ash" is mostly mineral content and it is measured by burning the food and seeing what is left.

Phosphorous troubles me the most because some foods, like the ones you orginally mentioned, are rather high, above 1.25% in some cases and maybe 1.50%. If any excessive level of mineral is gonna destroy kidneys it is high phosphoruos. I would ask what the Phosphorous is in Halo because there is so much egg in that food. I am willing to bet it is extremely high.

Pro Plan and Eukanuba are well below 1%, even with 30% protein. If you asked a Phd in canine nutrition which of the foods at Petsmart or Petco they would use, no doubt it would Pro Plan, Eukanuba or Royal Canin. Ash would be one of the reasons.

A dog only requires about 2 - 3% ash, but some of the ones you mentioned are well above 8%, possible above 10. I am also guessing that foods with high ash (high bone content) might also have high levels of fluoride.

The foods I mentioned are 6% and below. Bil-Jac is about 5% and for a 27% protein food that is pretty amazing. There are others but you asked about performance grade foods at Petco, Petsmart and Tractor Supply.

Is high phosphorous a problem for every dog? No, but no puppy comes with a sticker on its head reading "healthy kidneys for life."

It is best to look at low ash foods because over the life of the dog, it matters.


----------



## MarkM (Apr 4, 2013)

monster'sdad said:


> Well I will keep the answer to just one dealing with health. "Ash" is mostly mineral content and it is measured by burning the food and seeing what is left.
> 
> Phosphorous troubles me the most because some foods, like the ones you orginally mentioned, are rather high, above 1.25% in some cases and maybe 1.50%. if any excessive level of mineral is gonna destroy kidneys it is high phosphoruos. I would ask what the Phosphorous is in Halo because there is so much egg in that food. High calcium can interfere with the absorption of minerals.
> 
> ...


Ok this helps a lot. So no more than 6% ash, no more then 1.25% calcium, and how much is too much phosphorus? Sorry if I'm bugging you with questions, it's just imperative for us to get reliable information for our dogs health.


----------



## monster'sdad (Jul 29, 2012)

For a moderate protein diet 7.5% or below is good, with phosphrous at 1% or below, lower the better. Merrick I know for a fact is too high and so is Welness Core. Halo I would guess is high.


----------



## MarkM (Apr 4, 2013)

monster'sdad said:


> For a moderate protein diet 7.5% or below is good, with phosphrous at 1% or below, lower the better. Merrick I know for a fact is too high and so is Welness Core. Halo I would guess is high.


Oh ok. Does pro plan and eukanuba fall in that criteria? Because our main concern was the protein/fat, calcium/phosphorus, along with mainly meat products. That's what we were told help the puppy's grow. But now ash is involved.


----------



## monster'sdad (Jul 29, 2012)

MarkM said:


> Oh ok. Does pro plan and eukanuba fall in that criteria? Because our main concern was the protein/fat, calcium/phosphorus, along with mainly meat products. That's what we were told help the puppy's grow. But now ash is involved.


Yes they both do. Even the high protein/fat versions are suitable for puppies of all kind if you are good at portion control. Both are cleary labelled "all life stages".

Eukanuba is going to have the most meat protein of the two. If you called they would probably not recommend either of them but only because most people overfeed puppies. At Petco & Petsmart that is the best you are going to with performance foods, any the two choices are good. Either of the 28/18 foods are good choices if that is where you want to shop.

Close your eyes, do eenie-meenie-miney-mo and move on!!!!


----------

