# Meat from down/diseased cows?



## Grandiose (Apr 2, 2011)

Was recently made aware of a meat source. They sell ground and chunk beef for prices cheaper than I can generally find chicken quarters at. They also have horse meat, at prices comparable to my regular chicken and turkey prices.
As I was all ready to send in an order and stock up on some red meat for the dogs, I was informed that their meat comes from 4D graded animals (down/dead/diseased/dying - not fit for human consumption). My mind immediately says "NO WAY!"...can't feed that to my "kids".
I prepare their dinner on the same surface I prepare mine (not at the same time, and I sanitize my counters regularly). They say each piece is hand-inspected prior to being packaged as animal food.

Apparently, the "big cat" (lions, tigers, mountain lions, etc) places use this meat to feed their cats, and quite a few pet people do too to feed their dogs and cats.

Would you feed it? What are the pros/cons of feeding 4D meat to the dogs? 

I can't help but think that in the wild, often wolves will scavenge on rotting carcasses left by other animals. And often the animal they catch and kill are the weaker links (sick/old/injured/dying) in the wild.....

But I just can't wrap my mind around it....


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

i simply can not feed it to my dogs. .

down/dead/diseased/dying - down why. dead from what? diseased from what? that one gets me the most and dying from what?

whether that makes sense or not, i simply cannot do it


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## whiteleo (Sep 7, 2008)

I recently saw an article that activists are trying to shut down the illegal marketing of horse meat, as it is illegal to sell it in the United States!


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## Grandiose (Apr 2, 2011)

whiteleo said:


> I recently saw an article that activists are trying to shut down the illegal marketing of horse meat, as it is illegal to sell it in the United States!


7 states allow the sale of horse meat for HUMAN consumption.

There is no law prohibiting the sale of horse meat as animal/pet food in the US.


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## catahoulamom (Sep 23, 2010)

Not human quality, I wouldn't feed it to my dogs (or cats). I don't think I would even want to handle that meat. Go with your instinct, don't feed it.


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## Celt (Dec 27, 2010)

I personally could not feed my dogs meat that I wouldn't be able to feed to family, friends and guests. The exception might be tripe, but then again my family has eaten tripitas, and the "human version" of tripe


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## whiteleo (Sep 7, 2008)

Grandiose said:


> 7 states allow the sale of horse meat for HUMAN consumption.
> 
> There is no law prohibiting the sale of horse meat as animal/pet food in the US.


Can you show me the law, I'd like to see it!


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## whiteleo (Sep 7, 2008)

tt.com/2009/01/25/​is-there-*horse*-*meat*-in-dog-*food*
Is it *legal* to buy and sell *horse* *meat* in the United States ... 


*Horse* *meat* - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia 

 
Dog blog: Is there *horse* *meat* in dog *food*? | ThatMutt.com: A Dog Blog


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## Grandiose (Apr 2, 2011)

whiteleo said:


> Can you show me the law, I'd like to see it!



As soon as I can sitdown in front of an actual computer....I will post for you all that I can find. It's actually very interesting stuff, and not as black and white as people seem to believe.


As a side note - do you think licensed, inspected facilities would be able to openly market horse meat as animal/pet food if it were illegal to sell it as such?


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## Scarlett_O' (May 19, 2011)

I DEFINITELY would not feed it, and DEFINITELY not feed down/dead/etc horse meat...I know the meds that we put into sick horses, let alone the dewormers, etc....no way would my boys eat from that supplier!


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## Grandiose (Apr 2, 2011)

Scarlett_O' said:


> I DEFINITELY would not feed it, and DEFINITELY not feed down/dead/etc horse meat...I know the meds that we put into sick horses, let alone the dewormers, etc....no way would my boys eat from that supplier!


I'm glad I'm not alone in these feelings!! I just started thinking maybe I was insane and passing over a great cheap source of beef...

But I just can't imagine handling, let alone feeding meat from animals I know might have been sick and dying (or already dead!) prior to being butchered.


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

Grandiose said:


> 7 states allow the sale of horse meat for HUMAN consumption.
> 
> There is no law prohibiting the sale of horse meat as animal/pet food in the US.


i didn't know that washington state was one of those who are allowed to sell horsemeat for human consumption. i've never seen it in my super markets....


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## maplewood (Apr 14, 2011)

Grandiose said:


> Was recently made aware of a meat source. They sell ground and chunk beef for prices cheaper than I can generally find chicken quarters at. They also have horse meat, at prices comparable to my regular chicken and turkey prices.
> As I was all ready to send in an order and stock up on some red meat for the dogs, I was informed that their meat comes from 4D graded animals (down/dead/diseased/dying - not fit for human consumption). My mind immediately says "NO WAY!"...can't feed that to my "kids".
> I prepare their dinner on the same surface I prepare mine (not at the same time, and I sanitize my counters regularly). They say each piece is hand-inspected prior to being packaged as animal food.
> 
> ...


This is an interesting topic, to me anyway.

For those who are feeding a "Prey Model Diet" I find it interesting that they shudder at the thought of giving their dogs something that would actually be prey!Prey for wolves in the wild would be the old, sick, weak, dieing and dead.

Pro's of feeding meat unfit for human consuption would be the meat is unlikely to be enhanced in anyway.

Cons would be not knowing why the animal was "unfit" for human consumption and what denaturant is added. 

Depending on the denaturant I may feed it to my kids.


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

i will be the first to say that i do not feed my dogs a proper raw diet or a purist raw diet...

they eat parts of animals...and some animals that are not indigenous to the area in which they live...like llama....they don't live here and i doubt the wolves here would ever have access.

i won't be an apologist for how i feed. i feed what i can handle and what is good for them. i feed them raw animal parts...as much variety as i can find them....

for me, though, there is a line in the sand and i simply won't cross it. i read certain lists and there are discussions about how old the roadkill can be and still be used and i just won't do it....i don't judge others for doing this....i just won't.

so D list animals...poses a problem for me and the biggest one is the why they died....especially if they were diseased. i know my dogs' have a digestive system that can handle most everything...i just don't know what their line in the sand is...

even wolves die from eating certain dead animals....i don't know for sure, but i would think their sense of smell would keep them from eating something rancid....or toxic....

there are foods my dogs won't touch that they ate the day before....do they have a built in expiration date for smell? i don't know.

it's my job to keep them alive. there is no reason, in my opinion, to push the envelope....


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## MollyWoppy (Mar 19, 2010)

There's no way I'd feed it either. What if one of the animals had been poisoned? There is a reason why they won't let humans eat the meat, so in my view it's not rated for _my_ dogs consumption either. Mol gets the same meat we eat and I read the labels diligently trying to buy the healthiest meat for our little family that I can.


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## Scarlett_O' (May 19, 2011)

magicre said:


> i will be the first to say that i do not feed my dogs a proper raw diet or a purist raw diet...
> 
> they eat parts of animals...and some animals that are not indigenous to the area in which they live...like llama....they don't live here and i doubt the wolves here would ever have access.
> 
> ...


FULLY agree!! I ONLY feed my boys human grade food!


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## SerenityFL (Sep 28, 2010)

Grandiose said:


> Was recently made aware of a meat source. They sell ground and chunk beef for prices cheaper than I can generally find chicken quarters at. They also have horse meat, at prices comparable to my regular chicken and turkey prices.
> As I was all ready to send in an order and stock up on some red meat for the dogs, I was informed that their meat comes from 4D graded animals (down/dead/diseased/dying - not fit for human consumption). My mind immediately says "NO WAY!"...can't feed that to my "kids".
> I prepare their dinner on the same surface I prepare mine (not at the same time, and I sanitize my counters regularly). They say each piece is hand-inspected prior to being packaged as animal food.
> 
> ...


I draw the line at something like that....to echo others. I know that a wolf sanctuary in the Seattle/Tacoma area uses road kill to feed the wolves but I would never feed road kill to my dogs. Others may do it, that's their prerogative, but I don't know what disease the cattle are dying from, I don't know what has been inside that road kill while it sat there...with the exception of ONE time because my co-worker at my old job was the one who accidentally hit the deer....so it wasn't like it had been lying on the side of the road for a few hours or days. Even then, I was a bit grossed out.

But, because I'm still fairly new to raw myself, (almost 10 months), I'm still cautious about what I'm going to feed them. If it's not fit for human consumption, at this point, I'm not willing to feed it to my hoodlums.

(In the case of the deer hit by my old co-worker, he gave parts to my co-workers and they ate it...so, a teensy bit different than one that's been sitting in the hot sun with God knows what exploring inside and around it.)


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## candiceb (Jan 22, 2010)

Honestly I'd be a lot more open to feeding roadkill to my dogs than I would horse meat. Who ever said it was absolutely right, we pump a lot of chemicals into our horses in this country. And because horses generally aren't a part of the human food-chain, they aren't under the same regulations as cattle. 

Which leads me to point 2. You're absolutely right, in the wild, wolves typically pick off the sick, the injured, the old, the young. However, we're also talking about grass-fed, free-ranged animals that don't have all the same chemicals in them that do cattle, which are generally hyped up on antibiotics, hormones, not to mention whatever they encountered from living in a feed lot. I mean, it's places like that, that are the reason for bacteria like E. coli 0157h7. And of course, as was said above, why did those animals die? Dogs and wolves are not immune to everything, and surely at some point there is a line. But with 4D animals, you don't know that line. 

I would try to find out more information to be sure. If they do supply places like zoos, etc., surely there is some regulation in place. But I'd want to know what exactly that meant. And ask why it's safe for other carnivores. If they've ever had problems. And if it still didn't meet my criteria, then I'd say no thanks and pass.


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## SerenityFL (Sep 28, 2010)

whiteleo, no offense, please do not take offense...I just wouldn't trust Yahoo answers or Wikipedia as my source for factual information.

There have been many bills introduced to Congress regarding the ban of horse meat sales. Examples are HR503 and HR857. I have yet to find any information that these have passed. I only read, "IF this bill passes...."

You can look them up along with HB1244 which was a bill to allow horse slaughter for consumption, introduced to Congress in January 2011 as well as Bill S0065 and Bill A03504, also introduced in January of 2011, against the slaughter and sale of horse meat for consumption in the US. 

In the past, Bills requesting to make this illegal have not had good results..usually are left to die and a new Bill is written and introduced. At this point, I do not see that any of these bills have passed but perhaps, using those Bills and plugging in to a search, you may find more information.

Some states have been allowed to sell in the past and some Bills have passed not allowing, in those states. The above mentioned Bills are to either allow it, nationally, or make it illegal, nationally. At this point, I think one would have to go, state by state, to find out which are still allowed and which aren't. CA sure is not and I think FL is no longer allowed. TX it was ok until I think about 2004 but that may have also been overturned...I don't know.

It's a lot more research than a few guesses from people on yahooanswers, that's for sure. It would take a LOT of time to research this and, frankly, I have no interest in eating horse meat so I'm not so inclined to spend those hours.


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## whiteleo (Sep 7, 2008)

This is just something I came up with quickly. As far as I have heard from my many friends who are into horses as I was before, they no longer can slaughter horses here in WA state for ? I'm not sure if it was for human consumption sent overseas or for pet food. This is why craigslist was overwhelmed with much older horses for sale and the humane society being in the re homing business for horses as well as dogs and cats especially during the last couple years with the bad economy.


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## Scarlett_O' (May 19, 2011)

I dont know the exact law names and such, but I DO know that it IS legal in Washington state to sell horses to meat buyers! I live in a town with a monthly horse auction where there is always at least one meat buyer to pick up those that would go for cheap(some times a registered horse will go for $40-$60 bucks to the meat buyer!!) They are shipped to Canada or Mexico if those of us who are involved with horse rescue dont step up and spring them before their ship dates! (All that is yet another BS fulled thread!!)


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

Scarlett_O' said:


> I dont know the exact law names and such, but I DO know that it IS legal in Washington state to sell horses to meat buyers! I live in a town with a monthly horse auction where there is always at least one meat buyer to pick up those that would go for cheap(some times a registered horse will go for $40-$60 bucks to the meat buyer!!) They are shipped to Canada or Mexico if those of us who are involved with horse rescue dont step up and spring them before their ship dates! (All that is yet another BS fulled thread!!)


i was kind of surprised to find that out...that in washington it is legal.....


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## Scarlett_O' (May 19, 2011)

magicre said:


> i was kind of surprised to find that out...that in washington it is legal.....


Yep! And people will drop their horses off at the auction yard and just leave, not caring how much they go for!

This mare(registered Arabian with a GREAT pedigree) was dropped off the morning of a sale, and was scared to death, so was spooky in the 20'x20' concrete box "arena" that they show them in(there were close to 200 people at the auction when she went thru so it was anything but quiet) so she sold to the meat man for $60! Someone rescued her from the kill pen the next morning(her owner who had had her as a baby found out she was going to be sent to slaughter and found someone to take her!) she is now happily living at my friend's!:smile:


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## RawFedDogs (Jun 16, 2008)

Chemicals is the only thing that would keep me from feeding 4D's and horsemeat to my dogs. I have fed them some very super rotten meat before with no ill effects. If I could be assured that there were no more dangerous chemicals than meat we buy at the grocery store, I'd feed it in a heartbeat at those prices. My dearly departed Skylar's favorite treat would be a road kill squirrell that had been laying out in the hot Georgia sunshine for a few days to a week. If she could get her mouth on it before I could stop her, it was gone down the hatch. This was before my rawfeeding days but she never had a single vomit nor diarrhea and she did this 4 or 5 times.


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## SerenityFL (Sep 28, 2010)

I've been clearing out a lot of tall, evil weeds from all around the gigantic back yard I now have and have found some very interesting things. Lots of dog toys, stuffed animals, garden ornaments, garbage....I'm finding all kinds of stuff.

I finally got to the last area that needed to be cut down, huge weeds infested with ticks. (This is the main reason I've been tackling this yard.) For hours and hours, days and days, weeks, I have been working my ass off in this yard/garden areas.

After the last of the tall stuff was cut down, I took a hard rake to it and started to clear it out. About two days later, the hoodlums were in the back yard with me, and they went to that area. They came back chomping on chicken bones. I was livid. How DARE someone throw out cooked chicken bones..IDIOTS! There are dogs here! I took the bone out of the boy's mouth and threw it over the fence. There! That takes care of that!

Today, I got home from work, let the hoodlums out and after running around and wrestling a bit, the girl went over to that area. I noticed her chewing on something. *&$#@@!!!!!!! More chicken bones?!?!!?!?! 

I stormed over there to remove all those damn bones, once and for all! 

And found a dead animal, instead. If I were to guess, it has been there for at least 3 months, maybe up to 6 months. I am not exactly sure what it was...I'm thinking a kitteh. It was mostly skeletal but still had a bit of fur left on it...nasty, dirty, decomposing fur. The skull had nothing left on it but was still attached and some leg bones were here and there...those were the bones the hoodlums had been snacking on.

No matter how gross that was, I had to clean it up and get it out of there. So, I took care of poor kitteh. 

I then had to go get the last, tiny bone out of the girl's mouth and toss that over the fence, as well.

SO, we shall see what happens. Thus far, the boy, who ate the first bone a few days ago, has shown no ill signs. We will see what happens with the girl. Probably nothing. But yes, they were dining on a deceased animal that had been lying out under the weeds, tall grass and decay for months and thus far, the boy has not been affected at all.

It IS possible to feed them nasty things....and I did not feed this poor dead kitteh to my hoodlums so I'm still truthful when I say, I'm not doing that...but I think they can handle much more than we think they can. 

Yes, I KNOW, bones are different than raw meat, the point is, they ate dead bones...bones that had been sitting out for months on end, they had to root around inside that half decayed animal, they're dogs, you know they did. And they would have continued to chomp on that poor thing until it was gone...which, on the one hand, I kinda wish they had so I'd never have had to deal with it or know about it but I'm glad they didn't because that's just sickening.


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## PDXdogmom (Jun 30, 2010)

RawFedDogs said:


> Chemicals is the only thing that would keep me from feeding 4D's and horsemeat to my dogs. I have fed them some very super rotten meat before with no ill effects. If I could be assured that there were no more dangerous chemicals than meat we buy at the grocery store, I'd feed it in a heartbeat at those prices. My dearly departed Skylar's favorite treat would be a road kill squirrell that had been laying out in the hot Georgia sunshine for a few days to a week. If she could get her mouth on it before I could stop her, it was gone down the hatch. This was before my rawfeeding days but she never had a single vomit nor diarrhea and she did this 4 or 5 times.


Unfortunately, the bulk of meat sold at the average grocery store is full of chemicals (antibiotics, steroids, growth hormones, etc.) used by CAFOs (Concentrated Animal Feeding Operation) that should make us concerned - especially if that's the primary food source.


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## RawFedDogs (Jun 16, 2008)

PDXdogmom said:


> Unfortunately, the bulk of meat sold at the average grocery store is full of chemicals (antibiotics, steroids, growth hormones, etc.) used by CAFOs (Concentrated Animal Feeding Operation) that should make us concerned - especially if that's the primary food source.


I can't argue with you about that but they are going to get grocery store meat just as I am and if the 4D stuff isn't any worse, I don't mind feeding it. 

Just as a point of interest: Poultry doesn't have steriods nor growth hormones and usually doesn't have antibiotics.


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