# Herding Gone Wrong :/



## pandaparade (Dec 29, 2010)

I took my dog out to a herding lesson for the first time. Jasper loved it however, after a while, because Jasper was too loud with barking or got too close, he would get smacked to the side of the head with a plastic rake. I had no clue this is what I was getting into. I was shocked at this but didn't say anything, I just didn't know what to say. After a good smack he sort of backed off a little bit from the goats, which I know that is what they wanted him to do but, I felt first it confused him as he has never had anything hit him, second it frightened him, and I believe that lowered his confidence in his drive as well as probably anyone holding an object shaped like that. 

I am sure there is a positive reinforcing way and just hated to see my dog like this. They obviously know their methods are wrong because when I was recording, they told me to only take pictures because they didn't want anything ending up on Youtube because "some people wouldn't believe in the way they train their dogs and nitpick." I have the video though as she told me afterwards. 

Below, I have quoted what CountryClipperAussies says about methods in herding. I completely agree with this.

"There are two ways to approach herding, one is to positively reinforce the dog when he is where he should be (Positive reinforcement builds behavior, Ted's choice) and the other is indicate to the dog where he shouldn't be. (here you may have to deal with the side effects to using punishment. Anxiety, fear, escape, avoidance (passive and active), frustration, aggression and finally learned helplessness. These are the stages that a dog will go through every time when using punishment to teach. The other pitfall of punishment is the intensity has to increase in order to continue to be effective. This is the opposite of what happens in positive reinforcement. Further comparison reveals that with positive methods the subject learns faster in the long run. In punishment the subject appears to learn faster in the beginning but then the behavior falls apart in time. Getting back to building correct behaviors in herding with operant conditioning you are always rewarding the immediately preceding behavior. All training breaks down to cues and consequences. There are three stages to building a reinforcer. The first is food, building up to toys and games and finally evolves into relationship/affection. However, with each new behavior you may need to start with food again."

I mean, Jasper had a blast but I just did not like it at all. : (


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## RachelsaurusRexU (Sep 4, 2010)

Poor guy  

I'll be damned if anyone is going to smack my dog with a rake! How did you control yourself? Holy crap, I'd be in jail.


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## pandaparade (Dec 29, 2010)

I was so shocked. I didn't know what to say at all and just didn't know what to do at that moment. :/

I really wanted Jasper to learn how to herd but looks like I will not be able to as of right now at least.


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## CavePaws (Jan 25, 2011)

Poor Jasper! :| I would have been pissed beyond belief. Is there another place you could take him for herding lessons?


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## pandaparade (Dec 29, 2010)

Possibly one more, I suppose I could call as see how they work their dogs. There are only two places around here and around here meaning 1 hour away.


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## whiteleo (Sep 7, 2008)

Had you not been out to observe before you signed up for lessons?


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## pandaparade (Dec 29, 2010)

No I had not. The place was an hour away, I had heard good things about it, and had seen some videos on Youtube on it. I guess they hide the stuff they do not want others to know about.


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## pandaparade (Dec 29, 2010)

I listed this as "unlisted" but wanted to share with you guys what I mean..


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## Tobi (Mar 18, 2011)

Honestly it looks like she is just giving a bit of a warning "tap" ya.... i would probably be pissed, but then again, I've never taught any dogs to herd, and from what i know they get VERY VERY intense and it looks like jasper was getting a bit too close after he got them where they needed to be. It's definitely something to look into though, I've seen some very very talented shepherds and some amazingly trained border collies that had to be trained somehow, maybe getting in contact with some of those people and see what they think of it?


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## nortknee (May 5, 2011)

Ergh. :\

Not that I know anything about herding or Aussies, but he looked like he was doing just fine!
I don't feel the wack was warranted. And I certainly wouldn't blame Jasper for the "WTF LADY?!" look he gave her...

Hopefully she didn't do any permanent damage.


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## pandaparade (Dec 29, 2010)

Tobi said:


> Honestly it looks like she is just giving a bit of a warning "tap" ya.... i would probably be pissed, but then again, I've never taught any dogs to herd, and from what i know they get VERY VERY intense and it looks like jasper was getting a bit too close after he got them where they needed to be. It's definitely something to look into though, I've seen some very very talented shepherds and some amazingly trained border collies that had to be trained somehow, maybe getting in contact with some of those people and see what they think of it?


 Good idea. After watching it a little more I see she is doing it because time after time she hits the rake on the ground, he just ignores it and keeps driving around it. I still don't like it though. However, I would like to know more about herding so I will look into that. Thanks for the idea.


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## whiteleo (Sep 7, 2008)

It could very well be what a lot of trainers use to "warn" them not to get too close, I have no idea though but more info definitely is needed before moving on to another trainer.


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## Tobi (Mar 18, 2011)

pandaparade said:


> Good idea. After watching it a little more I see she is doing it because time after time she hits the rake on the ground, he just ignores it and keeps driving around it. I still don't like it though. However, I would like to know more about herding so I will look into that. Thanks for the idea.


I know one VERY renowned herder is Gerry Lewis i know of him from talk on another forum and he is also the one that did the video for the welsh lights thing.. I'm not sure how you would go about getting in touch with somebody like that but he is the top herder in the UK he still does it for a living and has some amazing dogs.
Welsh sheep video is internet sensation - Telegraph


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## whiteleo (Sep 7, 2008)

Here is a link (I hope)to where we get our sheep when they are done being used. I wish they were a little closer to me but are about 21/2 hrs. away as they have some pretty interesting classes they offer shhep and duck herding being some of them. Fido's Farm - Fun and Fitness for Both Ends of the Leash! Dog boarding, dog daycare, dog training, dog sports and activities, off leash frolic on 80 acres!


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## Tobi (Mar 18, 2011)

whiteleo said:


> Here is a link (I hope)to where we get our sheep when they are done being used. I wish they were a little closer to me but are about 21/2 hrs. away as they have some pretty interesting classes they offer shhep and duck herding being some of them. Fido's Farm - Fun and Fitness for Both Ends of the Leash! Dog boarding, dog daycare, dog training, dog sports and activities, off leash frolic on 80 acres!


Every day you make me want to move back to Seattle more and more... this place looks fantastic...


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## whiteleo (Sep 7, 2008)

The tracking class really interests me, my female Cayenne is such a nosey girl, always smelling everything when we go for a walk.


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## Tobi (Mar 18, 2011)

whiteleo said:


> The tracking class really interests me, my female Cayenne is such a nosey girl, always smelling everything when we go for a walk.


I'm thinking of agility for Tobi he gets really amped up when i go running around.


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## whiteleo (Sep 7, 2008)

I did a couple classes of agility with her, very low key. She did great until it was time to do the course of leash! Lol She ended up on top of the tunnel and was like, "look at me, look at me" everyone had a hard time not laughing at her.


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## eternalstudent (Jul 22, 2010)

Unfortunately this does not surprise me. I was out the other day and met a guy (farmer) with his collie. When the two dogs got together he then commanded his dog to leave mine, when this did not work, he smacked his dog with a 5 ft. birch stick he was walking with in the same manner as the girl in the vid. This shocked me being how proficient he was with it looked normal. This shocked me. But I guess this is how some treat the tools. And I for one hate it!!


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## Kimber (Apr 9, 2011)

Ugh! Thanks for the video - I could not take that, not because she was hurting the dog - but because your dog was frightened. I don't think scaring a dog is good training - doesn't build trust. My last dog a Chow/Husky mix - was in an obidience class that I walked out of. The trainer put a choke chain on him and yanked him off his feet until he 'went' for her. I grabbed the leash from her, told her I didn't like the way she was treating my dog and left. She told me I had a wild dog! Which of course, he was not. these people....


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## DaneMama (Jun 27, 2008)

The whack with the rake is completely unnecessary and a foolish move on the handlers part. It not only creates confusion it also definitely decreases the confidence in the dog. I would have gone in, and swiftly removed my dog from the pen and told the handler that I was less than impressed with their coercive and inappropriate training techniques. Herding is an intense job for a dog, but any herding dog can easily be trained with a clicker and a skilled trainer. The fact that the handler has to resort to whacking dogs with a rake just further shows they don't know diddly squat about good, appropriate dog training techniques.


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## grissom_mom (Sep 27, 2010)

Let me preface my comment with this: I do not agree with wacking a dog with anything, including a rake!

I just wonder how the majority of herding trainers teach, because while Nat is correct and anything can be taught with clickers, not all dogs are clicker trained and it seems like it would take a lot longer for some dogs with the excitement, smells, and NOISE in the corral to get anything through with a clicker alone. I wouldn't be upset if I went to a trainer and they used a rake/stick to touch (NOT SMACK OR HIT) my dog and/or point him where to go or block him from where not to go combined with clicker/pos. reinforcement training. I could see where a rake would be a useful tool in a herding pen with a beginning dog in that situation. 

I too would have run in there and grabbed the rake and smacked her with the darn thing. See how you like it!


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## DaneMama (Jun 27, 2008)

Patricia McConnell clicker trains all of her border collies for herding. She's an expert. 

When clicker training fails it's due to user error.


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## Boxers&Pom's Mom (Jan 17, 2011)

I will not like it at all. I will be really piss off.


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## FL Cracker (May 4, 2011)

I don't get the hitting part....why not use a long line?? And use a correction that way? If a barrier needed to be put between the sheep and dog...then a rake...device could be used to separate...but I don't get the strike. Now I'm sure a sheep coud certainly do some damage if allowed to kick your dog...if that's their trait to do so....but as the vid shows the dog in my opinion did not react to being hit in a manner that would promote further involvement in the event. Just my .02


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## eternalstudent (Jul 22, 2010)

This guys books where the first I read on dogs in general and dog training. I think he has a great attitude and understanding of animals. No coercion all positive.

YouTube - Graeme Sims working seven dogs at the Midland

Unfortunately he is not that well known and there are not that many vids of him.


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

i'd find another class.


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## pandaparade (Dec 29, 2010)

Yep, in no ways will I go back, period. My dog doesn't need to herd, it was simply a gift to him to have fun but there are tons of other fun things to do for now. Treiball will be the new one at my work


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## chowder (Sep 7, 2008)

I know if anyone had used that method on any of my chows, it would be the last time they got near the chow and it would be the chow's decision, not mine! I had one trainer try to get 'dominant' with one of my boys and she ended up being the only person in the whole class who could never get near him again. He never forgave her for trying to use physical force on him. He had the same look on his face as Jasper does in the video "Who are you and what are you doing to me?!!"

I learned then the big difference between positive reinforcement and negative reinforcement. Rocky has never had anything but clicker training and he obeys like a charm and isn't worried about anything. Shade has a past of physical force used on him and he cowers and ducks at the slightest raised voice or sudden movement.


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## dmgmn (Apr 24, 2011)

I'm not gonna agree/disagree with what she does in the video, but it looks like she showing him he has boundries and to keep his distance. When you teach a dog to herd, they have certain things that they have to stay focused on and other things they have to completely ignore to do their job correctly. Herding can get very intense and extremely dangerous for the dog if it doesn't stay focused and alert. Imagine if you will, if that were a 1500 lb steer and the dog gets too close??

It may not be the absolute best way to train, but it may not be as horrible either.
"better a tap to the snout, than a boot from a steer"

We are talking about training a "working" dog which essentially turns them into more of a "a tool" "a machine" thats has to stay focused on what they are trained to do in order to survive any and all situations that could arise from this job they have to do.

I would say " GO FOR IT" on the Treibball thing Ashley, that looks like fun and i think would be more appropriate for Jasper.


pandaparade said:


> Good idea. After watching it a little more I see she is doing it because time after time she hits the rake on the ground, he just ignores it and keeps driving around it. I still don't like it though. However, I would like to know more about herding so I will look into that. Thanks for the idea.


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