# Do you ever wonder if its worth it?....



## kevin bradley (Aug 9, 2009)

...so I'm in Barnes and Noble last night. Pick up a John Stossel book...you know, the guy who likes to point out how everything we know is wrong. Believe he moved over to Fox News now. 

So he writes this book about all these different topics...such as "how cheap coffee is just as good as expensive coffee(I always love how people can rate taste), why regular gas is fine for most cars(actually true), why bottled water is a rip off, etc...etc...etc....

So he hits on Premium Dog Food and why it just doesn't matter and that there is no difference. He even has a quote from the head of Tufts University Vet School stating that he's seen no evidence that premium foods are any better for Dogs. And I've heard this before from the Veterinary community....that there is little evidence that the elite foods are worth it. 

Now, in my heart, I don't buy what he says. Good lord, the boxes of Acana, Orijen and EVO state this. Logic tells me of course it is better to feed better food to our Dogs. How could it not be better? My Dogs are visibly healthier on better foods and I have very high standards in what I deem to be an ethical, reliable company....

But I have to be honest, guys...I do pause to think at times. What if they're right? What if we do all of this and it really doesn't matter much? Honestly, growing up...we fed the store brand foods to all of our dogs and they lived to be 15+...almost all of them. Heck, we even had a stray Dog and I swear she was near 20 years when I finally had to say goodbye. Pedigree and supermarket food her entire life. 

But it gets me to thinking at times...I'm only being honest here. NO, I will never go away from feeding top quality foods. Never. But there will always be about 10% of me that kind of wonders..."what if I'm wrong on this?"

I guess I'm not looking for answers, just friendly thoughts and discussion. Its a hot topic and kind of gets to the core of why we believe what we do....I enjoy hearing others opinions.


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## Unosmom (May 3, 2009)

Nope, the only evidence I need is having a healthy dog. I think most people do not pay attention to small details(or not so small) when it comes to dogs health, so something like dull coats, heavy shedding, weight gain, eye/ear infections, hot spots and later more chronic diseases that come with age, are dismissed because most people think its normal. 
When I was growing up, I honestly never paid attention to those things, I didnt know anything about nutrition and Pedigree was considered a premium food, one thing I remember is that most dogs had that typical icky dog smell. 

Unless theres a life-long study that compares the effects of premium vs. grocery store brand food, I dont trust their vet approved sources because we all know where the funding comes from.


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## whiteleo (Sep 7, 2008)

Remember one thing back in the day, things were a lot cheaper to produce, they didn't use all the preservatives they do now and there probably were decent ingredients in those foods back then. It all comes down to the bottom line, how much money can they make, so over time, more filler less meat and more preservatives for longer shelf life.

The top of the line foods today I'll compare with more of the organic industry, they just want to be really careful about what is going into their product as they have come to realize that like humans, dogs are more a part of the family and people will/do spend billions of dollars a year on them.


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## chowder (Sep 7, 2008)

There are always the exceptions to every rule. When I grew up in the 60's, our lab died at age 7, and all our other dogs died at about the same ages. Dogs lived in the yard and took their chances and whatever ones weren't hit by cars, got dog chow, had puppies, and died young. Ours were lucky in that we spayed them. Even my dogs in the 80's and 90's died at ages 12, 10, 9, and 8 from various cancers and diseases ( and I worked for vets). The only one I had that lived to 16 was a grumpy Lhasa Apso and they are just naturally long lived.

The same can be said for people. My Grandma lived to be 92 eating all German sausages, beer, pork, potatoes, pastries and only a rare vegetable. I'm not sure that it means I should follow her footsteps and eat that way my whole life (although it would be a lot more fun!) I really think you need to look at a huge amount of numbers and long term survival rates, plus the quality of life to get any kind of acurate statistics. Otherwise we can all eat beer and sausage and feed dog chow (don't worry, be happy! )


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## kevin bradley (Aug 9, 2009)

whiteleo said:


> Remember one thing back in the day, things were a lot cheaper to produce, they didn't use all the preservatives they do now and there probably were decent ingredients in those foods back then. It all comes down to the bottom line, how much money can they make, so over time, more filler less meat and more preservatives for longer shelf life.
> 
> The top of the line foods today I'll compare with more of the organic industry, they just want to be really careful about what is going into their product as they have come to realize that like humans, dogs are more a part of the family and people will/do spend billions of dollars a year on them.



Interesting point...I'd add this...if you go back about 70-80 years, I don't believe Dog Food even existed. Seriously, I think Dog Food as a kibble is relatively new.


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## DaneMama (Jun 27, 2008)

kevin bradley said:


> Interesting point...I'd add this...if you go back about 70-80 years, I don't believe Dog Food even existed. Seriously, I think Dog Food as a kibble is relatively new.


This is exactly why I don't feed kibble. What did dogs live off of back then?


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## harrkim120 (Feb 2, 2010)

danemama08 said:


> This is exactly why I don't feed kibble. What did dogs live off of back then?


Scraps and canned dog food I believe.


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## DaneMama (Jun 27, 2008)

And I believe that dogs were healthier back then...at least nutritionally wise. Medical advancements have really pushed the average life spans of domesticated animals to further and further limits.


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## harrkim120 (Feb 2, 2010)

danemama08 said:


> And I believe that dogs were healthier back then...at least nutritionally wise. Medical advancements have really pushed the average life spans of domesticated animals to further and further limits.


While the "advancements" in food have restricted it. :frown:


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## CorgiPaws (Mar 31, 2009)

It's true that dogs HAVE survived on commercial pet food for many many years. I suppose it would be easy to second guess that $70 bag of Orijen for that $18 bag of Pedigree. 

What it comes down to for me is: dogs are carnivores, and we know that as a fact... so to me, feeding a diet as close to possible to that would be ideal. The premium foods ARE better without a doubt because they contain more meat for those carnivores.
They also (usually) tend to contain less common allergens, and undigestable ingredients so they're undoubtedly better. 

Dogs CAN survive on cheap food. I CAN survive on tv dinners and Taco Bell, but I'm probably not going to reach optimum health that way. To me, giving them something healthier, if it's within my means, makes me sleep better at night.


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## kevin bradley (Aug 9, 2009)

Curious about your stance....seriously....

You guys must admit that Deboned Walleye, Lake Whitefish, Fruits, Vegetables, Free Range Chicken.....the ingredients of Orijen and Acana....are all excellent for Dogs.......

I'm assuming those of you feeding real/raw food must believe that the beauty of all of the above ingredients are completely destroyed or negated during the processing of the food? 

Is it safe to assume that this is your stance?


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## CorgiPaws (Mar 31, 2009)

kevin bradley said:


> Curious about your stance....seriously....
> 
> You guys must admit that Deboned Walleye, Lake Whitefish, Fruits, Vegetables, Free Range Chicken.....the ingredients of Orijen and Acana....are all excellent for Dogs.......
> 
> ...


Well, aside from fruits and veggies, yes, those would be good things for dogs.
It's true that MOST of the nutritional content is probably destroyed, but not all of it. In my mind, if something is going to be downgraded, I'd want to start with it as good as possible. 

This is a poor example, but it made sense in my mind. 
On a scale from one to ten, if you placed nutritional value of, say, venison at a 10 prior to processing, then all the processing might devalue it to, say, a 6. 
If you did the same with an ingredient like Corn, it would start at maybe a 3 and be devalued to 1 or 0 by the end. 
So, by starting at a higher quality, you'd still end at a higher quality.

I know, terrible example, I had no idea how to put it in writing from my head.


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## DaneMama (Jun 27, 2008)

kevin bradley said:


> Curious about your stance....seriously....
> 
> You guys must admit that Deboned Walleye, Lake Whitefish, Fruits, Vegetables, Free Range Chicken.....the ingredients of Orijen and Acana....are all excellent for Dogs.......
> 
> ...


ALL nutrients are not destroyed through the process of making dog food, but a lot of them are taken out by the cooking process. This is a fact.

I will agree with you and say that the fish (even though its been deboned-it would be better if the bones were still in) and chicken are excellent for dogs. 

If all the nutrients were destroyed or negated, dogs wouldn't survive on kibble. The fact that dogs CAN survive on kibble means that there is available nutrition to them. BUT the fact that so much of kibble goes in one end and right back out the other means that A LOT of what goes into kibble is utterly useless to a dog.


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## chowder (Sep 7, 2008)

kevin bradley said:


> Curious about your stance....seriously....
> 
> You guys must admit that Deboned Walleye, Lake Whitefish, Fruits, Vegetables, Free Range Chicken.....the ingredients of Orijen and Acana....are all excellent for Dogs.......
> 
> ...


If ingredients were completely destroyed or negated from processing of food, then there would be no nutrition left at all in human food after processing, either. And in fact, that is what people who eat entirely raw food are trying to claim. Obviously people and dogs do eat processed foods and stay healthy. I have lived with southerners in my family who cook the bejeezus out of vegies and live into their 90's. 

I'll go along with the idea of starting with best ingredients and doing the least processing possible but not necessarily no processing. Scientist claim that the enzymes in the stomach react with food before it gets to the small intestine anyway, so having it processed minimally is no different then having stomach enzymes work on it. 

Give the dog the best you can afford and then don't worry about it. Dogs are pretty adaptable. Like kids..... mine managed to grow up without all organic, raw, holistic food and both still grew over 6'3" tall. Even had an occasional Happy Meal and one played semi-pro sports and he hates vegies so go figure.


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## chowder (Sep 7, 2008)

danemama08 said:


> BUT the fact that so much of kibble goes in one end and right back out the other means that A LOT of what goes into kibble is utterly useless to a dog.


If you saw how tiny the poops were that Rocky and Chelsy make on EVO you might rethink that. They turn white and sandy and crumble into dust in a few days and I don't even pick up the yard anymore. I can't imagine how he could eat less.


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## DaneMama (Jun 27, 2008)

chowder said:


> If you saw how tiny the poops were that Rocky and Chelsy make on EVO you might rethink that. They turn white and sandy and crumble into dust in a few days and I don't even pick up the yard anymore. I can't imagine how he could eat less.


I used to feed EVO, and my dogs would have small, compact stools that would turn white in the sun. I was even further amazed how small and compact my dog's stools were when I switched to raw. Bailey the Dane poops are like chihuahua sized LOL


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## kevin bradley (Aug 9, 2009)

Chowder, 

Thats funny....I was seeing similar poops in my yard....dried up and disintegrated to nothing when I moved it around. 

I'll say this...its a clever and logical stance to believe that cooking destroys much of the nutrients in food. It certainly sounds fair. I'm just not sure whether or not its true.


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## DaneMama (Jun 27, 2008)

It holds true for humans, there is plenty of research done on that. I would assume that if nutrients are killed in the cooking/processing of food for humans it would be the same for dogs. Here are a few articles:

https://sedonalabspro.com/information/health_matters/Enzymes.pdf

ftp://166.111.30.161/incoming/new_b...ion Handbook for Food Processors/36659_14.pdf

ETA: Some nutrients are not destroyed by cooking or processing, and others are even amplified by *light* cooking. Although, in no way do I see the rendering, cooking/extruding and further processing of dog food is related to this in any way. What dog food goes through from the bare ingredients to the final product can be compared to "light cooking."


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## chowder (Sep 7, 2008)

Here is an interesting article on the changes vegies go thru when humans cook them and how some nutrients are increased when you cook them. It's a little off topic but I thought it was a really interesting since I decided to research Raw Food for humans for health reasons ( and then totally vetoed the idea!!!). 

Fact or Fiction: Raw veggies are healthier than cooked ones: Scientific American

Tomatoes actually improve after cooking for 30 minutes! But I'll still enjoy a good fresh tomato sandwich once my garden comes in (without cooking it) !


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## chowder (Sep 7, 2008)

danemama08 said:


> I used to feed EVO, and my dogs would have small, compact stools that would turn white in the sun. I was even further amazed how small and compact my dog's stools were when I switched to raw. Bailey the Dane poops are like chihuahua sized LOL


Ha ha.....our new grandbaby chihuahua's would be rabbit pellets then! :biggrin: That might be fun just to see!


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## Khan (Jan 17, 2010)

If all the nutrients were destroyed or negated, dogs wouldn't survive on kibble. The fact that dogs CAN survive on kibble means that there is available nutrition to them. BUT the fact that so much of kibble goes in one end and right back out the other means that A LOT of what goes into kibble is utterly useless to a dog.[/QUOTE]

I have seen ALOT of Kibble go in one end and come out the other in what can only be described as a "Cow Pie" That was when Khan was only a few months old and barely tipped the scales at 50lbs!! He has just turned 8 months and he is pushing 100lbs and his poop is "blue ribbon, award winning!!" 
That is only because he no longer eats kibble, and is eating Real Food.


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## whiteleo (Sep 7, 2008)

I think all us raw feeders can agree we love the size of our dogs poo!:biggrin: But as much as we love our dogs it is truly great to know that there are real choices out there now, that didn't use to be there before.
Because we have companies like Natura, Champion and Petcurean we have some really nice dog foods to chose from and reputable companies to boot. These are choices that people didn't have 15 yrs ago, so Wohoo!!


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## xxshaelxx (Mar 8, 2010)

I have never once fed my dogs low quality kibble. They came to me on low quality kibble, and also with the runnies. They've had runnies as well on their high quality foods, and they've had stinky farts and stinky poos.

Well, my friend brought her dogs to stay with me, and right now, all she can afford is Pedigree and Purina. Let me tell you....HER DOGS STINK! Their farts are wretched, and their poos are ten times worse smelling than my dogs' poos ever were. Not only that, but they're REALLY big, and REALLY mooshy, and they're an orangish, yellowish, greenish color. Yes. Orangish, yellowish, greenish color. Then there's the fact that it's almost like she spends MORE on these dog foods than she would on a good, high quality kibble, but she just can't get the money to just go buy a $50 bag of food, so she gets it when and where she can. Her dogs go through about two bags a week of these foods, and that's a fifteen pound bag, Whereas I'd go through a thirty pound bag of dog food with my two dogs in two weeks. Granted, I rationed my dogs' foods, whereas she just leaves it for hers, AND she has large pit bulls. Still, that's an awful lot to spend when you could get just about the same for a bit more.



kevin bradley said:


> Curious about your stance....seriously....
> 
> You guys must admit that Deboned Walleye, Lake Whitefish, Fruits, Vegetables, Free Range Chicken.....the ingredients of Orijen and Acana....are all excellent for Dogs.......
> 
> ...


Here's a good example to go by:

When you cook alcohol, what happens to it? The alcohol dissolves.



chowder said:


> If ingredients were completely destroyed or negated from processing of food, then there would be no nutrition left at all in human food after processing, either. And in fact, that is what people who eat entirely raw food are trying to claim. Obviously people and dogs do eat processed foods and stay healthy. I have lived with southerners in my family who cook the bejeezus out of vegies and live into their 90's.


Well, humans never ate raw meat. Even cavemen cooked their food over fires. Indians cooked their food over fires. Humans have adapted to take in as little nutrients from the food as possible and still be healthy from it. Whereas dogs always lived on raw food up until the more recent times. Their bodies are still designed to eat raw food, and they're still designed to take the most nutrients from things.



chowder said:


> Give the dog the best you can afford and then don't worry about it. Dogs are pretty adaptable. Like kids..... mine managed to grow up without all organic, raw, holistic food and both still grew over 6'3" tall. Even had an occasional Happy Meal and one played semi-pro sports and he hates vegies so go figure.


You actually don't have to eat healthy at all to grow to be 6'3". 




ALSO, all of this what if, what if? Yeah, well, what if you did feed your dog kibble all it's life and it died at 17? Well, what if you fed that dog raw all its life and it lived to be 27? I don't think any information can really be conclusive, because all dogs are going to die at different ages depending on how they die. Even with mass researching of different breeds and whatnot, you could never tell when a dog is going to die IF it is on kibble, or when a dog is going to die IF it's on raw, or when a dog is gonna die IF it's on a high or low quality kibble or whatever, whatnot. It's ALL what if.

My grandma died at, like, 85 years old (not long compared to some of the generations these days), and she ate healthy all her life. What if she'd eaten McDonald's and Burger King all her life? Maybe she would have died at 70?



What if, what if, what if? What if isn't going to make much difference. You make choices in your life to the best of your ability, hoping it will be the right one. Everything is a risk, because tomorrow I could get hit by a bus, and none of my healthy eating would make a difference. Or tomorrow a cougar could eat my dog, so feeding it raw wouldn't make a difference.

That being said, I love pondering over the stupid, little "what if's." hahaha.


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## Unosmom (May 3, 2009)

> Well, my friend brought her dogs to stay with me, and right now, all she can afford is Pedigree and Purina.


Maybe you she can at least upgrade to something like Healthwise ($33 for 35 lbs), Diamond Naturals ($35 for 40 lbs) or 4Health from tractor supply-($34 for 35 lbs) just to name a few.


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## kevin bradley (Aug 9, 2009)

Unosmom said:


> Maybe you she can at least upgrade to something like Healthwise ($33 for 35 lbs), Diamond Naturals ($35 for 40 lbs) or 4Health from tractor supply-($34 for 35 lbs) just to name a few.


Great suggestion, Uno. 

I don't get why people won't do this type of switch. Most will never go from Purina to Orijen. I get that...certainly, finances are a fact of life. And I cannot honestly say that Orijen would save a person money. Not even Champion's "budget" line of Acana would do that.

But, BUT, going to Healthwise....or any decent food around $1/lb. would truly SAVE a person money. Heck, Healthwise is $32 for 35 lbs. right now. That is a no brainer for someone feeding grocery store garbage. I honestly bet they would save money doing this.


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

:usa::usa::usa::usa::usa:


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## Gia (May 29, 2009)

I second the Sushi posting! In fact Sushi, minus the rice, called Sashimi, is my favorite food! Slices of raw fish..nothing else...absolute favorite food. :biggrin:

My parents are from Germany and they eat a lot of meat over there, my Mom used to feed us Tartar, when we were kids, though I never liked it. Also, pickled Herring is very popular, I'm neither over whelmed nor under whelmed with pickled Herring, lol.

My dogs do love raw meat, of course they love it cooked, too.


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## rannmiller (Jun 27, 2008)

I'm wondering what sort of "premium" foods this guy looked at to come to this conclusion. Because if he was comparing Beneful to Science Diet (which is considered premium for some weird reason) or Eukanuba, or even Royal Canin, then I can totally understand how he would draw that conclusion. 

I was talking to these people about what they feed their cat and they told me "Oh we feed her the grocery store's brand because we compared the ingredients and they're the same as the other really good brands like Cat Chow, Friskies, and Fancy Feast!" *facepalm* It's not hard when that's what you're comparing it to!


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## xxshaelxx (Mar 8, 2010)

Unosmom said:


> Maybe you she can at least upgrade to something like Healthwise ($33 for 35 lbs), Diamond Naturals ($35 for 40 lbs) or 4Health from tractor supply-($34 for 35 lbs) just to name a few.


That is LITERALLY all she can afford at the moment. She doesn't have the money to buy a $35 bag of dog food even if it does last her twice as long. She is literally living day to day because her income comes in day to day, and she has to spend it all, literally, day to day. I've already had this discussion with her, and she knows. 



> humans have and do eat raw meat and fish....


I realize this, but I was referring more to things like beef, pork, poultry, etc, and not things like liver. Sorry, I should have specified that. XP 



> I second the Sushi posting! In fact Sushi, minus the rice, called Sashimi, is my favorite food! Slices of raw fish..nothing else...absolute favorite food.


Also, not all sushi is raw, and sashimi and sushi are completely different. Sushi is actually named that for the rice, that is called sushi. Sashimi is literally translated to raw fish. XD


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

:usa::usa::usa::usa::usa:


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## Unosmom (May 3, 2009)

this post reminded me, has anyone seen that wife swap episode of a family that only eats raw meat? They would even put a piece of meat in a jar and let it sit for weeks (if not months), then once its rotten, they'd eat it like delicacy


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## kevin bradley (Aug 9, 2009)

Unosmom said:


> this post reminded me, has anyone seen that wife swap episode of a family that only eats raw meat? They would even put a piece of meat in a jar and let it sit for weeks (if not months), then once its rotten, they'd eat it like delicacy


funny....I saw that a couple years ago on some show. Disgusting. 

Heard something else recently...a reknowned Dr. from Johns Hopkins was on a show talking about how there is this new sickness similar to anorexia/bolemia where people get SO finicky about what they eat that it causes many health issues. They don't get enough calories and they have a phobia that EVERYTHING needs to be organic this/organic that...and sometimes that isn't even enough. 

It had some name, but I forget. My only thought when this Dr. was talking was..."OK, I'll admit there may be a problem there, but I would be willing to wager that the hogs I see in Wal Mart and everywhere around town outnumber them 1,000,000 to 1. Maybe you should prioritize what diseases you try to remedy "


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## chowder (Sep 7, 2008)

Gia said:


> I second the Sushi posting! In fact Sushi, minus the rice, called Sashimi, is my favorite food! Slices of raw fish..nothing else...absolute favorite food. :biggrin:
> 
> :


Push to ban trade in endangered bluefin tuna | Environment | The Observer

We no longer buy any tuna or sushi made from tuna. Here is an interesting story about the near extinction of the bluefin tuna due to the sushi industry and the disruption of the food chain that the overfishing of the other tuna varieties will lead to in the rest of the ocean. Like everything else we humans seem to do, we get carried away with something and do it to the extreme!

They apparently are coming up with tuna farms, like salmon and catfish farms, and that may be the answer to the problem. Kind of off topic here, but an intersting article.


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## PUNKem733 (Jun 12, 2009)

chowder said:


> Push to ban trade in endangered bluefin tuna | Environment | The Observer
> 
> We no longer buy any tuna or sushi made from tuna. Here is an interesting story about the near extinction of the bluefin tuna due to the sushi industry and the disruption of the food chain that the overfishing of the other tuna varieties will lead to in the rest of the ocean. Like everything else we humans seem to do, we get carried away with something and do it to the extreme!
> 
> They apparently are coming up with tuna farms, like salmon and catfish farms, and that may be the answer to the problem. Kind of off topic here, but an intersting article.


I do think overfishing is a HUGE problem, but these fish raised in fish farms usually have a much higher chance of being infected with disease, and are not as tasty.


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## CorgiPaws (Mar 31, 2009)

Unosmom said:


> this post reminded me, has anyone seen that wife swap episode of a family that only eats raw meat? They would even put a piece of meat in a jar and let it sit for weeks (if not months), then once its rotten, they'd eat it like delicacy


I saw that. It absolutely repulsed me beyond words. Maybe I'm ignorant, but I couldn't wrap my head around the aged raw meat stuff. *gagg*

The episode with the crazy lady in utah that made her kids drink the veggie shakes in the mornings and wake up at 4 am for chores.... I actually met her (my grandfather owns her home) and she REALLY is as nuts as the show makes her out to be. 


anyway, end off topic rant here. lol


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## xxshaelxx (Mar 8, 2010)

CorgiPaws said:


> The episode with the crazy lady in utah that made her kids drink the veggie shakes in the mornings and wake up at 4 am for chores.... I actually met her (my grandfather owns her home) and she REALLY is as nuts as the show makes her out to be.


What about the episode of Trading Spouses with the crazy lady who is so overly religious that she freaks out at the end of the second episode when she comes home because there were evil people in her house doing evil things to her family and even tears up a $50,000 check?

Man, if I ever met HER, I'd have to slap her...I mean, I respect peoples' religions, but it drives me NUTS when others won't accept any religion but their own, like her, and will put people down because of it.

Anyways, end MY rant. haha.


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