# This is becoming a nightmare. Please help.



## Agustin (Nov 21, 2011)

Some of you may remember my last post in which I said my Weimaraner was throwing up and had diarrhea from just eating drumsticks. We finished off the drumsticks and got him back on quarters. Everything seemed to level out without further incidence. I was at the grocery store about a week ago and found some Sanderson Farms chicken thighs on sale for 50% off so I couldn't pass them up, plus we bought our usual brand chicken quarters. So far so good.

However, that didn't last long. He started to have a little bit of gas from the thighs and we had a bark alarm for one night at about 3AM to go outside. Okay, no biggie, probably something going on with the chicken thighs or the brand. Figured he'd level out once we got him back on the chicken quarters again. Fed him his second meal of a full chicken quarter, skinned and trimmed of fat, as usual, but I had to leave him in his kennel for a solid 5 hours. 

Hoping everything was okay when I got back, I came home to a smell that killed the air and almost made me vomit. The smell was his vomit with a huge chunk of that chicken quarter sitting in the middle of it all. Poor guy must have sat in it for who know hows long. Anyway, now I'm totally lost. There are two things that seem to be consistent. When he throws up he throws up a lot and second it only happens when I change to something other than quarters. 

A couple of things I think it COULD be. It's possible that just like dog food, they can't handle the brand change or richness of one cut of meat over another (wild guess on that one) or secondly, it may be the volume of food. Now I'm pretty sure the volume is good to go, as I was meticulous about the amount of food he's getting and he only has problems when I switch from quarters to something else, albeit chicken regardless.

Now I did not check the package on the thighs to see if it was enhanced or not. I know I made sure the sodium was low, but the chicken quarters are the same brand I've been buying. I'm at a total loss here. I'm scared to leave him alone because I'm afraid he might vomit. It's currently 6 degrees outside, was a high of 12 today, so cleaning a 60+ pound Weimaraner and an Extra Large kennel is NOT easy when you have to do it outside because of the smell. I really need help.

I realize that there will be some adjustment and I really think the change of drumsticks back to quarters, then to thighs, then back to quarters is sparking all this nonsense. I'm a believer this is the diet for him and just about any dog, but boy do I need some encouragement. Thank you for any help, you folks are the best.

P.S. A little something I forgot to add. He eats poop! I think the poop is really causing some of the issues too. He's so damn hungry, or at least thinks he is, that he runs outside to go eat poop! I'm really starting to watch this by going outside with him and limiting his time outside to long enough to relieve himself. This is getting so old already!


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## Sprocket (Oct 4, 2011)

Maybe he is allergic to chicken?


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## cprcheetah (Jul 14, 2010)

What is the sodium content of the chicken that makes him sick? That could be the problem it ideally should be below 100, they don't always put on the label whether or not it's enhanced but some dogs are super sensitive even if it's just a small amount in there.


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## Agustin (Nov 21, 2011)

I think his allergies would have manifested a lot sooner if that was the case though. I personally feel the change up in both brands and specific meat concentrations is more likely to blame here. I forgot to mention that he did throw up when eating the chicken thighs. Just seems like whatever it is, it's only happening when I stray from the quarters. 

Now I realize that the both the thigh and drumstick comprise the quarter, but maybe, just maybe, the concentration of having a single cut of this meat is too high in something and causing the issue. Just a thought since different cuts of meat have very different tastes, even when connected or touching from the original animal.


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## Agustin (Nov 21, 2011)

cprcheetah said:


> What is the sodium content of the chicken that makes him sick? That could be the problem it ideally should be below 100, they don't always put on the label whether or not it's enhanced but some dogs are super sensitive even if it's just a small amount in there.


Unfortunately I didn't check this last time and the package is long gone. I do know that I'm aware of avoiding high sodium chicken and made sure of this when I first bought the brand of chicken quarters.


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## Agustin (Nov 21, 2011)

I will say this, again since I feel it's important, everything was smooth sailing until I introduced just drumsticks or just thighs. That's gotta be it!


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## tem_sat (Jun 20, 2010)

I would feed him only unenhanced chicken quarters for 2 weeks straight with no vomiting. I would then treat the thigh and / or drumstick like a new protein and only add a bit of it off the bone along with the quarter and see how he does and proceed from there. That is very strange. I hope everything works out.


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## Agustin (Nov 21, 2011)

Aside from the obvious labeling of "enhanced", what would be the reason for enhancing the chicken? In other words, what do I need to look for when buying chicken? Organic isn't really an option due to enormous cost.


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## cprcheetah (Jul 14, 2010)

Chicken’s Salty Little Secret | Nutrition Unplugged
Processors are required to disclose the injections, but lettering can be small – just one-third the size of the largest letter in the product’s name. The words “100% natural” will likely be what you see first so you might not look beyond this description. During my own visits to the meat case, it wasn’t easy to quickly tell the differences between the various packages of fresh chicken – especially when the dominant visual is the fresh meat peering below the clear plastic.

To know if you’re picking up an enhanced product, you need to go beyond the bold type and look for the fine print, such as “contains up to 15% chicken broth.” You won’t always see the word “enhanced” used – simply the percentage of added salt water. You can also check the ingredient list to see if you spot chicken broth, salt and carrageenan, and, of course, look for the sodium content on the nutrition facts label. If it’s truly natural, with no injections, the sodium content won’t be higher than 70 milligrams per serving.


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## tem_sat (Jun 20, 2010)

Agustin said:


> Aside from the obvious labeling of "enhanced", what would be the reason for enhancing the chicken? In other words, what do I need to look for when buying chicken? Organic isn't really an option due to enormous cost.


Something like "Water added for processing" or "In Solution". Just check the nutrition facts on the bag and something under 100 mg of sodium per serving would be fine. When it's enhanced, the sodium level is way up there. I have no problems finding unenhanced chicken at the grocery store. When in doubt, Foster Farms is definitely not enhanced.


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## Agustin (Nov 21, 2011)

Thank you to everyone for the replies. I will follow the advice to the letter given here thus far. I'm withholding food tonight and will begin feeding him again tomorrow early afternoon. I'll update this post as things progress.


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## DaneMama (Jun 27, 2008)

How does he eat things? Is he a gulper? Or does he take his time chewing?


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## JayJayisme (Aug 2, 2009)

FYI, I feed Sanderson Farms chicken to my dogs (and myself) all the time and it is NOT enhanced.

This whole thing is very odd. The only difference between a chicken leg, thigh, and quarter is the quarter is a leg and a thigh with half of the back attached, which is bone-heavy. Maybe you should be feeding your dog backs instead of quarters until he acclimates before increasing the meat to bone ratio from quarters, legs, or thighs.


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## Dude and Bucks Mamma (May 14, 2011)

I agree. With a dog like that I would definitely be feeding backs. Foster Farms, at least up here, actually sells the backs in your typical package along with some other cuts. We buy them from our butcher but before we found the butcher we would buy those for the boys during transition.


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## Agustin (Nov 21, 2011)

DaneMama said:


> How does he eat things? Is he a gulper? Or does he take his time chewing?


He is definitely a gulper. To slow him down I serve him the quarters frozen, but lately, due to my own laziness, I've been skinning and trimming them at the time I feed him so I'm having to partially thaw the meat to remove the skin. This isn't helping and means he can eat an entire quarter in under 2 minutes. When they're frozen it takes him a solid 10 minutes or more, so I may start keeping them frozen again. Why do you ask?



JayJayisme said:


> FYI, I feed Sanderson Farms chicken to my dogs (and myself) all the time and it is NOT enhanced.
> 
> This whole thing is very odd. The only difference between a chicken leg, thigh, and quarter is the quarter is a leg and a thigh with half of the back attached, which is bone-heavy. Maybe you should be feeding your dog backs instead of quarters until he acclimates before increasing the meat to bone ratio from quarters, legs, or thighs.


There's only a handful of companies here in Colorado that sell chicken backs and to my knowledge they're all sold in bulk. I guess I can make that switch. Right now I'd say he's probably getting around 70% meat and 30% bone with the quarters. Maybe it's the extra meat, I don't know. So far we're two meals in, post vomit and he seems to be doing okay for the moment. Time will tell though.



Dude and Bucks Mamma said:


> I agree. With a dog like that I would definitely be feeding backs. Foster Farms, at least up here, actually sells the backs in your typical package along with some other cuts. We buy them from our butcher but before we found the butcher we would buy those for the boys during transition.


That's another vote for backs. I'll buy a case and see how he does. That's an awful lot of bone though, isn't it? Thank you everyone for your replies. I really do appreciate it.


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## DaneMama (Jun 27, 2008)

I ask because I to recommend chicken backs but they're smaller and gulpers will swallow them whole.. And from the sounds of it your dog isn't a true gulper, if he was he'd eat even a frozen chicken quarter in about 30 seconds to a minute. This is how fast some of my girls eat them...

Order them from harvest meat company (303) 333-8225. When you call tell them you're making an order through the Colorado meat and none feeders, that way they know who to transfer you to. They close at 3-3:30 for pick ups and will only take cash. I always used to ask for the price per pound on things as well as an estimated price for the entire order so I'd know about how much cash to bring. You can get lots of stuff through them but for now just get backs, they come in a 40 pound case that is frozen solid so you'll have to thaw it out which will take a few days at room temp.

Backs do have a lot of bone but since he's having such intermittent loose stool I think he needs more bone.


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## Agustin (Nov 21, 2011)

I just got off the phone with the Harvest Meat company. I've had their price list for over a year now and now I'm waiting on their updated pricing list. That's funny you mentioned them because they're exactly who I'll be ordering from. 

The chicken backs are definitely going to be ordered and are a lot cheaper than the grocery store bought quarters, which are running $0.99 a pound. The chicken backs last year were running $0.49 a pound so big difference. I really appreciate your feedback.


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## DaneMama (Jun 27, 2008)

We ordered most of our meat from them when we lived in Denver. I never waited around for a price list, I just asked the guy or gal how much each item was per pound when I called to make an order. They are really nice. Let us know how it goes with chicken backs


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## Filth (Oct 5, 2011)

If you can give me some answers I will be thankful and try to help you.

How old is your dog?

When did vomiting start? What did you feed him when the voimiting period started? What did you feed him before that? What was he raised on?

When did you start giving frozen meat, and did he show any differences in vomiting and stools when eating frozen? Did he have any stomach problems earlier?

In my opinion feeding just chicken backs is not a good diet. But I hope you will work something out and find a food that doesn't make any problems for him.


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## Agustin (Nov 21, 2011)

DaneMama said:


> We ordered most of our meat from them when we lived in Denver. I never waited around for a price list, I just asked the guy or gal how much each item was per pound when I called to make an order. They are really nice. Let us know how it goes with chicken backs


I did finally get the pricing list and ordered 2 40# cases of chicken backs. I will keep him on these for at least 2 weeks and if all goes well, I'll slowly start adding new proteins in addition to the chicken backs. I got 70# of meat, figuring I'll lose 10# to skin and fat trimming, for $36. You can't beat that!



Filth said:


> If you can give me some answers I will be thankful and try to help you.
> 
> How old is your dog?
> 
> ...


My puppy is almost 11 months old. He's a Weimaraner so he's big, probably around 60+ pounds right now.

He started vomiting when I introduced the drumsticks as the sole source of protein. So we went for a week with straight quarters (skinned and trimmed of fat) and everything was going beautifully. Once I started giving him straight drumsticks he started getting gas, diarrhea and threw up a couple of times. Went back to quarters, problem stopped, bought thighs and quarters, only fed thighs for 2 days. Problems started back up again with vomiting. He threw up the quarter we fed him the day after we finished feeding him the thighs. Assuming the thighs caused the problem, he threw up twice over 2 days during that time period. Back to quarters again, no apparent problems so far. 

He was raised on kibble (Blue Diamond, Diamond Naturals and Nutra Max), but we kept slowly changing his food because he seemed to always have really bad gas. His gas is next to non-existent on the raw food diet by the way.

He's never had stomach problems before. Well let me revise that, he started having minor stomach issues when we switched him to the Nutra(o?) Max. Vomiting was very infrequent though, like once a week if that. My chihuahua went through the same thing on this food too.

Knowing that he gulped down his kibble and fearing that his gulping was causing the gas, I started him on frozen quarters from the get go to slow him down. His first meal took him a solid 40 minutes because he stared and played with it for awhile, then it went to 20 minutes, now he's go it down to about 8-10 minutes. As I previously stated though, due to my laziness, which will stop immediately, I've been skinning and trimming at meal times which means partially thawing the food. This means he eats them down in about 5 minutes or less because they're easier to eat.

His stools were PERFECT when he was just fed frozen quarters. I mean perfect! The size comparison between old and new was astounding and he seemed to be doing well, like a dream come true. That is until I introduced the drumsticks by themselves, same brand and everything as the quarters.

We only plan to feed him with JUST chicken backs for a couple of weeks and slowly, I mean slowly, start introducing new proteins so he has a balanced diet. So that's where I stand right now, for better or worse.


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## Filth (Oct 5, 2011)

I'm pretty confused now.

So the chicken quarter is the whole chicken part consisted of chicken drumstick and chicken thigh. Is that correct?

He was doing good on quarters, but then vomiting and having diarrhea on just drumstick and just thighs. How is that possible? If drumsticks and thighs are parts of quarters. Let's clear that out first, I must be confused.

The worst thing to do now is to run away and try to find something else which he will be fine on. Especially if that something is chicken backs which does not have enough meat as dog needs. Feeding just chicken backs is not even close to a complete dogs diet. His diarrhea should not be solved with more bone(since he is alredy getting enough) because his diarrhea is caused by some stomach issues(problems with digestion), not by mistakes in food area.

What you should do is to find out whats wrong, and what makes him vomit. How many times a day do you feed him? Have you ever fed him chicken breasts? Have you ever fed him anything besides chicken? If yes, what were the reactions?

If you want to listen to me and follow the steps we will find out the solution. If you have some quarters or drumsticks or whatever chicken part except backs, take the bone off completely and cut the meat in smaller pieces. For example cut the meat from a drumstick into 5 or 6 parts. Feed him just that today, and repeat it tomorrow. Do NOT feed it frozen(will write about this a lot more in next period), get the meat out of the freezer and feed it fully thawed. My opinion is that the poultry bones are making some problems.


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## DaneMama (Jun 27, 2008)

Just to be clear I think you should stick with the advice of ONE person because he needs consistency. The advice I'm giving you (the OP) is a tried and true method that has worked hundreds if not thousands of dogs in the past years I've spent here. Either take my advice or Filth's advice but not both. 

Chicken backs are not a complete diet, but its a necessary step to get his digestive tract back on track. Once he does well on those for several weeks, then you start adding more things in. 

And I have seen many cases like this...different packages of the same brand of chicken can cause different reactions to a newly switched dog. He's just more sensitive than most dogs out there so we have to be slower and more methodical with his switch .


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## Caty M (Aug 13, 2010)

Definitely go with the chicken backs until the diarrhea clears up.. it's worked every time, even after Tess ate a pound of butter. :wink: bone binds up stool, and they are very bone heavy.


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## Filth (Oct 5, 2011)

DaneMama said:


> Just to be clear I think you should stick with the advice of ONE person because he needs consistency. The advice I'm giving you (the OP) is a tried and true method that has worked hundreds if not thousands of dogs in the past years I've spent here. Either take my advice or Filth's advice but not both.
> 
> Chicken backs are not a complete diet, but its a necessary step to get his digestive tract back on track. Once he does well on those for several weeks, then you start adding more things in.
> 
> And I have seen many cases like this...different packages of the same brand of chicken can cause different reactions to a newly switched dog. He's just more sensitive than most dogs out there so we have to be slower and more methodical with his switch .



Ok, then tell me why chicken backs? What makes the difference? Why is he going to feel better when eating just chicken backs? What does chicken back has, that quarter does not?

Do you think his vomiting is caused by to little bones? Are you serious? 

I don't se diarrhea here as the main problem(since it has shown just couple times). Even if it is, is there only one way to solve it? Chicken backs for couple weeks?

The point is to find out what is the problem, and then accommodate to that problem. Are we gonna keep swithcing if he continue vomiting? Until we find out the thing he will be fine eating? Do you think that is the right way to deal with the problem?

All of you who are suggestin some changes, tell me why is this dog vomiting? What is the problem and what is going to be solved by your change?


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## naturalfeddogs (Jan 6, 2011)

Filth said:


> I'm pretty confused now.
> 
> So the chicken quarter is the whole chicken part consisted of chicken drumstick and chicken thigh. Is that correct?
> 
> ...


Nobody is talking about backs as a complete diet. If you read back, you will see posts about loose stool. The backs are bone heavy, which will help with the loose stool. Once that is cleared up then the OP can move on to the next cut of chicken with more meat and so on. No, it would not be a complete diet. It is just possible to have too much to soon. Then you have to go back a step, because they weren't quite ready to advance.


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## DaneMama (Jun 27, 2008)

Filth said:


> Ok, then tell me why chicken backs? What makes the difference? Why is he going to feel better when eating just chicken backs? What does chicken back has, that quarter does not?


Because chicken backs have a higher percentage of bone. Bone acts as a stool binder so the more bone the better for a dog with loose stool. Chicken backs have approximately 44% bone compared to a chicken leg quarter which have approximately 27% bone. The more bone you feed the firmer stools become. 

I don't recommend feeding such high bone content meals for long, just long enough to have diarrhea episodes resolve. 



> Do you think his vomiting is caused by to little bones? Are you serious?


Yes, it can be caused by feeding too little of bone content because the intestinal tract is the largest internal organ for a dog. If the bacterial flora of the gut get out of harmony, it can make the dog feel very ill. On the contrary, too much bone for too long can cause vomiting too which is why high bone content meals should not be fed for long. Just long enough to resolve the issue. On average feeding high bone content meals to combat diarrhea resolves the issue in less than a week. 



> I don't se diarrhea here as the main problem(since it has shown just couple times). Even if it is, is there only one way to solve it? Chicken backs for couple weeks?


Well, since diarrhea and vomiting are the chief complaints by the OP...I see them as the problems caused by something else. I personally think through experience that its because he/she started out feeding not enough bone AND their dog being more sensitive to new raw foods. I've seen this very same thing happen many times. 



> The point is to find out what is the problem, and then accommodate to that problem. Are we gonna keep swithcing if he continue vomiting? Until we find out the thing he will be fine eating? Do you think that is the right way to deal with the problem?


Like I said above, the problem that I see is that this dog is more sensitive than most and the OP started out on not enough bone content. This in turn caused an imbalance of bacterial flora in the gut which caused the dog to start vomiting. If the dog continues to vomit and have loose stool, I would suggest they have their dog examined to make sure something else, more significant isn't the route cause.

Yes, this is the way that I know how to deal with this problem. Its worked for many dogs on many occasions. Is it the only right way to deal with it? I have no idea...but this is what I know to do. This is the way that probably 98% of raw feeders here on this forum combat this issue. I know that members have also suggested adding slippery elm to feeding bone heavy meals helps as well. 



> All of you who are suggestin some changes, tell me why is this dog vomiting? What is the problem and what is going to be solved by your change?


I've answered these questions above.

You are more than welcome to give your own advice to this person about their dog. I just think the OP should stick to one set of advice...regardless of who's it is. I have no idea what you would suggest or if it would work since you don't post on this raw board as much as the BARF board.


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## Filth (Oct 5, 2011)

DaneMama said:


> Because chicken backs have a higher percentage of bone. Bone acts as a stool binder so the more bone the better for a dog with loose stool. Chicken backs have approximately 44% bone compared to a chicken leg quarter which have approximately 27% bone. The more bone you feed the firmer stools become.


You wanna bet that diarrhea will stop completely with the 0% bone in his meals in next two days? 




DaneMama said:


> I don't recommend feeding such high bone content meals for long, just long enough to have diarrhea episodes resolve. .





DaneMama said:


> Just long enough to resolve the issue. On average feeding high bone content meals to combat diarrhea resolves the issue in less than a week. .


And then what? Put him back on what made all the problems? Or feed backs till the end cause 27% of bone is to little(I disagree)?

What is goint to change, so that he will be able to eat quarters without vomiting or diarrhea?




DaneMama said:


> Yes, it can be caused by feeding too little of bone content because the intestinal tract is the largest internal organ for a dog. If the bacterial flora of the gut get out of harmony, it can make the dog feel very ill. On the contrary, too much bone for too long can cause vomiting too which is why high bone content meals should not be fed for long. .


It can be, I agree. But that is not the case. Chicken quarters are not something that is low on bones. 27% is even more then enough bones in my opinion. I don't know exactly, but I do not feed more then 20% of bones. My dog never vomited, my dog never had a loose stool. 50 more dogs are fed the same way.





DaneMama said:


> Yes, this is the way that I know how to deal with this problem. Its worked for many dogs on many occasions. Is it the only right way to deal with it? I have no idea...but this is what I know to do. This is the way that probably 98% of raw feeders here on this forum combat this issue. I know that members have also suggested adding slippery elm to feeding bone heavy meals helps as well.


I do not say that it is not going to work. I'm saying that it is not the right way to do it. His problems are not caused by the lack of bones, I can guarantee that. You sacrifice meat to solve vomiting, which is surely the only thing that vomiting is not coming from.


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## DaneMama (Jun 27, 2008)

Filth said:


> You wanna bet that diarrhea will stop completely with the 0% bone in his meals in next two days?


No, I don't want to bet. You're more than welcome to help this person if they want to take your advice. Why not just give it out instead of playing these silly games? 



> And then what? Put him back on what made all the problems? Or feed backs till the end cause 27% of bone is to little(I disagree)?
> 
> What is goint to change, so that he will be able to eat quarters without vomiting or diarrhea?


Yes, with time. Start the transition over slower, more gradually adding more meat. Giving the intestinal tract more time to get used to a new diet. I think that initially it was shock to the dog's system. 



> It can be, I agree. But that is not the case. Chicken quarters are not something that is low on bones. 27% is even more then enough bones in my opinion. I don't know exactly, but I do not feed more then 20% of bones. My dog never vomited, my dog never had a loose stool. 50 more dogs are fed the same way.


What is the route problem in your opinion? Instead of telling me what I think is wrong, tell what you're opinion is on what the issue is. 

My dogs eat probably 10% or less bones in their overall diet. They've been fed this way for years. We can both agree that 44% bone on a normal basis is way too much. 



> I do not say that it is not going to work. I'm saying that it is not the right way to do it. His problems are not caused by the lack of bones, I can guarantee that. You sacrifice meat to solve vomiting, which is surely the only thing that vomiting is not coming from.


Again, tell us what YOU think the problem is instead of just saying everything is wrong. Let the OP decide what they think makes the most sense.


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## Filth (Oct 5, 2011)

DaneMama said:


> No, I don't want to bet. You're more than welcome to help this person if they want to take your advice. Why not just give it out instead of playing these silly games?


Wouldn't say the "silly games". I'm just trying to calm down the situation and make some friendly atmosphere.  Last time I(or we) came in here and suggested something different whole forum got very upset, so I do not want that uncomfortable situation to happen again. So i'm trying to go gently. 



DaneMama said:


> Yes, with time. Start the transition over slower, more gradually adding more meat. Giving the intestinal tract more time to get used to a new diet. I think that initially it was shock to the dog's system.


I would start with meat and then gradually add bones. Giving the intestinal tract more time to get used to bones, not meat. And I agree, it was a shock to dog's system. But I think bones were shock, not meat. I would use something beside meat and bones to calm down the stomach. Also something else to stop diarrhea in a day. I would cut off everything that might be the cause of vomiting, and then go slowly step by step.




DaneMama said:


> What is the route problem in your opinion? Instead of telling me what I think is wrong, tell what you're opinion is on what the issue is.


Not a problem at all. I think the rout problem are poultry(hollow) bones. That's why I said backs may be the solution, but in my opinion not the best one.

What I would do is not really easy to say. I would feed something outside pmr for sure. Since I do not feel welcome to write about it here, I'm not going to do it. 

I alredy wrote about what I would do, but didn't really feel like the tread starter will follow the steps I suggest. If Agustin wants to do it, he can contact me by pm.



Filth said:


> If you want to listen to me and follow the steps we will find out the solution. If you have some quarters or drumsticks or whatever chicken part except backs, take the bone off completely and cut the meat in smaller pieces. For example cut the meat from a drumstick into 5 or 6 parts. Feed him just that today, and repeat it tomorrow. Do NOT feed it frozen(will write about this a lot more in next period), get the meat out of the freezer and feed it fully thawed. My opinion is that the poultry bones are making some problems.



I would like that I can find a dog with the same problem here and do the experiment parallely. But nobody introduces raw with chicken quarters here, so it will be hard to find the similar case.

Also, if you Natalie want to hear what I would do feel free to contact me.


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## naturalfeddogs (Jan 6, 2011)

why not post it so the OP can see it? Thats the point, to help the OP unless I really missed something. Who knows, it may help someone else as well.


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## DaneMama (Jun 27, 2008)

Filth said:


> Wouldn't say the "silly games". I'm just trying to calm down the situation and make some friendly atmosphere.  Last time I(or we) came in here and suggested something different whole forum got very upset, so I do not want that uncomfortable situation to happen again. So i'm trying to go gently.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


This is why there's a BARF forum now. I encourage you to write an in depth "how to help" thread about these remedies you're talking about but not sharing here because this forum is more geared towards PMR. If you write a well balanced, referenced thread about this I will happily make it a permanent sticky thread for future reference in the BARF section.


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## Agustin (Nov 21, 2011)

My apologies for not being able to post about this more. I only have time for a quick update and some clarification. Update: He's doing well on chicken quarters so far. I'm thawing them to around 80% and of course still skinning and trimming fat. Clarification: He only had diarrhea when we switched him to drumsticks, not the thighs or quarters. His vomiting occurred when we made the switch AWAY from quarters. My plan is to SLOWLY introduce the chicken backs while continuing to feed quarters. He had a small spell of gas tonight, but no big deal. 

And I'm a guy. lol I'll update this again over the weekend. Thanks again.


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## JayJayisme (Aug 2, 2009)

Filth said:


> Ok, then tell me why chicken backs? What makes the difference? Why is he going to feel better when eating just chicken backs? What does chicken back has, that quarter does not?
> 
> Do you think his vomiting is caused by to little bones? Are you serious?


The reason why backs are different than thighs or drumsticks is two-fold. First, the overall bone to meat ratio is higher, which as Natalie said, helps to bind stools. Second, the bones in a back are much smaller than leg bones. It's not uncommon for transitioning dogs to have a problem digesting larger bones. When the dog can't digest it, he naturally vomits the bone up. Backs can help a dog transition by providing a higher percentage of bone in the meal, and smaller, more easily digestible bones. Once the dog is better acclimated to digesting bone, larger bones can be added to the diet. 

No magic, just common sense.


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## Herzo (Feb 5, 2011)

Filth said:


> Wouldn't say the "silly games". I'm just trying to calm down the situation and make some friendly atmosphere.  Last time I(or we) came in here and suggested something different whole forum got very upset, so I do not want that uncomfortable situation to happen again. So i'm trying to go gently.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I'm not sure if I am understanding you, but if you are asking if any one else has introduced there dogs on chicken quarters, legs and thighs then I have. I did not have this problem however. I did three dogs this way and 11 year old and two 3 year old's all with legs, thighs and quarters because I have not found backs and I had no problem so never looked further.

I think it would be a good idea as Natalie suggested to write something up and to put it in the BARF section so that people have a choice as to which way they would like to go.

Sorry I don't know how to quote just the lines I am referring to so I did the whole thing.


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## Agustin (Nov 21, 2011)

*Update:* So it's been about a week. So far everything is going well. I wouldn't say great, but definitely an improvement. We ended up buying some chicken quarters from Wal-Mart (I know), but I couldn't pass them up at $0.59 a pound. He seemed to develop a little bit of gas on these, but I'm feeding them thawed, so I'm thinking that he might be gulping causing air to be swallowed. For right now though everything is okay. If he continues with the gas I'll probably revert to feeding them frozen for a few meals to see if gulping is the culprit.

I still haven't picked up those chicken backs yet, due to my own laziness, but I'll probably handle that today or tomorrow. I want to thank everyone here for all the help and guidance. If he goes another say 2 weeks without a issue I'll go ahead and slowly start leaving some of the skin and fat on. Once he's got that down I'll start slowly introducing new proteins, then organ meat.


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