# Super new and needing some pointers/advice!



## OldGnarlHead (Feb 17, 2016)

Hi! Im Kells,
I am getting a dog in May after 20 years of desperately wanting a dog! (I am so extremely excited ) I am determined to be the best puppy-mama I can be so, I of course want to feed a raw diet! I just have a few things that are not entirely clicking for me. I kinda want to feed ground/minced food, because it's a lot less space consuming (I promised the room mates I wouldn't keep the raw dog food in the community freezer so Dog (I am getting a rescue so I have no idea of breed/gender, we have been calling future dog 'Dog') gets my whole minifridge to itself!). However, I am not opposed to feeding more prey-model if that is legitimately better. 
While feeding on minced food, I was wondering how to properly integrate RMBs into the diet? I don't want to grind them up in the food too, because I want Dog to be able to chew and get its teeth clean. Would the best way to do this simply be make one or two meals a week just RMBs and have it add up to the weekly reccommended amount of bone? The whole 'balance over time' deal? 
What do you all reccommend as a good starting meal schedule (in terms of foods to get a dog used to a raw diet)? I was thinking of offering raw chicken and chicken liver as training treats to get Dog used to it, and then start making that more and more substantial each day. 
I am going to admit, rather sheepishly, that I do plan to feed a mix of kibble and raw (preliminary research says that the whole 'kibble digests slower' is actually not true and it's okay to feed kibble and raw) simply because it'll be easier to make money stretch a bit further. Not that I'm low on funds, I'm just very into saving  
I am very determined to give a lucky, lonely shelter pup the best life it can, and I have been doing LOADS of research to make that endeavor possible! Any and all tips, tricks, hints, advice, etc. you have would be GREATLY appreciated!

Much love and good vibes, 
Kells!


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## naturalfeddogs (Jan 6, 2011)

Welcome to DFC! Feeding prey model is the most beneficial way to go, considering the whole bones provide wonderful teeth cleaning, calcium and other minerals. Also with chewing not only whole bones, but whole chunks of meat as well provide mental stimulation. Ground meat does contain a higher bacteria level from the grinding process, which isn't normally a problem with a healthy dog, but it is something to think about. 

If you are going to feed whole bones, then you will be feeding whole meat as well, since the bones are covered in meat. So, whole chunks of boneless should be fed as well.

Balance over time means feeding a variety. Simple as that. Something different each day, and including organs either weekly, or small amounts at each meal. That's really up to you.

Begin with bone in chicken like quarters, and stick with only those for a week to a week and a half. Nothing but chicken. Then, assuming poops and all have gone well, continue chicken, but add bone in turkey like necks, and do the same. Then move on to pork, then beef, lamb, venison etc......The red meats are the last proteins to introduce because they are the richest ones. Once all of that is done, you will introduce a very small amount of organ like liver, and work up. It's SUPER rich, so take it easy on those. 

I wouldn't feed raw and kibble together. Some dogs are ok with it, others not. I am one who in the beginning made that mistake. I was cleaning s**t off the walls in our bedroom for three hours. Just FYI.


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## OldGnarlHead (Feb 17, 2016)

Alright, prey model it seems to be. One thing I've noticed with people who feed prey model though, is sometimes the dog still wolfs the food down. Now, I know I don't have Dog yet, but I've never met a dog that didnt eat his whole dinner in under a minute flat (except my boyfriends 12 year old beagle, but he is a super sweetheart) and I'm mildly concerned about bloat. 
I intend on using the local butcher block around here so hopefully with time they can give me good deals on things  Im also in the middle of po-dunk nowhere farmland so I may be able to put out a thing in the newspaper/craigslist for good meat scraps. I wanna find someone local to buy good eggs from anyway. 
On the kibble, Ive heard some dogs do really well on it, some don't, so it's really up to Dog and Budget. If it turns out that I can feed raw more easily than the kibbles I was going to rotate through, then that's what I'll do! TO clarify, I dont intend on feeding raw and kibble simultaneously, like at the literal same time, but at different meals. I don't know if that makes a difference or not in the whole 'digestive upset' thing.

So what about feeding whole fish? Does anyone have any experience with that at all?


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## InkedMarie (Sep 9, 2011)

I feedprey model raw in ground form. I also add bones for teeth. If you feed ground, you will need a stand alone freezer unless you are planning to use a premade raw.


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## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

I'm excited that you're so excited about getting a dog! What a happy time for you - and for your new best friend!

However, and at the risk of being offensive - if you know that feeding raw is the best thing to do why on earth would you even consider kibble? Sure they can eat it. Dogs, to their detriment, can eat almost anything. It might be cheaper and it might not - I know people who feed raw for zero dollars. 

I have a sneaking suspicion you may not believe in your heart that a fully, true, raw diet is enough. And people who are halfway committed often don't stick with it. You just have to make up your mind to take that leap of faith that feeding raw meaty bones (not ground up for space or safety reasons) is the absolute best for your dog. And you want to give them only the best. 

Feeding alternate meals of raw and kibble is still feeding kibble. Almost all dogs with their garbage guts could eat kibble, raw, and smelly roadkill all in the same meal and be perfectly fine. But only two of those things are good for them and one of them is not kibble


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## OldGnarlHead (Feb 17, 2016)

Xellil, I honestly do know that it is the best for them, and Ive known dogs who have been fed raw and absolutely thrived (neighbors Boston lived to be almost 24!). It's really just a money thing. I am a :whispers: college student... and it really is a money thing. As I said, if it turns out that it's totally feasible in my budget, then all raw is what Ill do! 
I plan on buying food for Dog every 2 weeks, as I get paid every two weeks and there is a really good butcher shop on campus. I dont know how diverse their selection is, but Im looking into a mail-order meat service that'll deliver to Indiana and maybe getting a Costco membership. Athough there is an Aldi's really close by, and they recently went full on organic! 
But yes, I am so very, very excited to finally have a dog to train and hang out with and all that. I am very happy, and the next few months will be excruciating until I can get Dog and have it in a good forever home!


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## naturalfeddogs (Jan 6, 2011)

OldGnarlHead said:


> Alright, prey model it seems to be. One thing I've noticed with people who feed prey model though, is sometimes the dog still wolfs the food down. Now, I know I don't have Dog yet, but I've never met a dog that didnt eat his whole dinner in under a minute flat (except my boyfriends 12 year old beagle, but he is a super sweetheart) and I'm mildly concerned about bloat.
> I intend on using the local butcher block around here so hopefully with time they can give me good deals on things  Im also in the middle of po-dunk nowhere farmland so I may be able to put out a thing in the newspaper/craigslist for good meat scraps. I wanna find someone local to buy good eggs from anyway.
> On the kibble, Ive heard some dogs do really well on it, some don't, so it's really up to Dog and Budget. If it turns out that I can feed raw more easily than the kibbles I was going to rotate through, then that's what I'll do! TO clarify, I dont intend on feeding raw and kibble simultaneously, like at the literal same time, but at different meals. I don't know if that makes a difference or not in the whole 'digestive upset' thing.
> 
> So what about feeding whole fish? Does anyone have any experience with that at all?


Feeding large, whole cuts that are to big for the dog to swallow will make them chew, rather than gulp. Also, you can feed those cuts frozen or partially frozen and they will have to chew even more.

You can feed whole fish, but the right ones to be beneficial. You want to feed wild caught oily types like salmon. The benefits of fish come from the oils which provide needed omega 3's. Farmed fish are lacking the omegas. The catch...it can't come from the pacific northwest. Those can carry a parasite that causes salmon poisoning. I don't have access to good quality fish, so I feed fish oil as a supplement. That is an option for you too.


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## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

You live in Indiana? Where? I used to live there. My Pet Carnivore has the best meat, and we could drive to their freezer in Indy and pick it up. They also deliver. You should check out their website. 

You can feed raw on the cheap. You need chicken quarters which you can get at WalMart for 39 cents a pound. Some liver. I lost my job five years ago and didn't get another one for over a year. My dogs ate a lot of chicken. You can also beg friends and family to give you meat when they clean their freezers. There are lots of deer hunters in Indiana, if you can get an in with them - they will give you scraps for free, often. 

If I could buy everything from My Pet Carnivore I would but their shipping is prohibitive since we moved. They aren't the cheapest by any means, but for quality and for adding some pasture raised goodies they are certainly worth it and are reasonable if you don't have to pay for delivery.

I still order organs from them.


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## OldGnarlHead (Feb 17, 2016)

Awesome, thanks! Im back and forth between Indy and West Lafayette (betcha can guess where I go now XD) But yeah, I think I have 125 a month alotted for Dog right now, but I can probably move some funds around. I just cant buy in bulk too much because I have very limited freezer space.

Also, thanks NaturalFedDogs. Ive heard that freezing the fish for 24 hours prior to feeding can take care of the parasites?


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## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

I lived in Lafayette and Mulberry for 10 years. Nice place. Good school! 

The salmon with the parasite shouldn't be fed at all. Other fish are ok without freezing. I don't feed salmon myself - too pricey and the "real" wild salmon are in trouble. Affordable salmon is farmed and not good for human or animal. And salmon are large fish prone to mercury concentrations.

I do feed herring and sardines. You want smaller oily fish, wild-caught. You don't have to feed fish at all. I didn't feed any fish or fish oil for a couple of years until I found another source I liked.


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## OldGnarlHead (Feb 17, 2016)

My father is from Mulberry 
I would like to feed fish if I can, mostly because that Boston I was talking about earlier literally slurped them down and loved them. I do plan to buy a high quality fish oil though, so I can supplement some omegas.


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## OldGnarlHead (Feb 17, 2016)

Also, I was wondering what bones would make recreational bones? Obviously I dont have Dog yet, so I dont really know the size of the dog, but I'm planning on getting a medium size dog, hopefully around 40-60 pounds


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## naturalfeddogs (Jan 6, 2011)

I personally don't ever give rec bones, and they really aren't recommended because they are generally dense, weight bearing bones from large animals. Those types of bones are bad about chipping and breaking teeth. Depending on the size of the dog you decide to get, and you want to give something to chew on, you can give frozen pig ears, or even turkey necks. Frozen, they tend to last a little longer.


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## OldGnarlHead (Feb 17, 2016)

Alright, cool, that knocks some money off the table. I was just looking at Reel Raw Dog and to get to that free 50lb shipping mark is SO expensive! I think I'll stick to local. Also My Pet Carnivore delivers to Lafayette which is literally three miles from where I'm sitting so that's good. Still looking to really buy from local butchers though.


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## naturalfeddogs (Jan 6, 2011)

Local you will usually get better deals. The more butchers and farmers you can find the better.


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## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

I found a place in Florida that ships here cheaper than the "free" shipping in Reel Raw. I buy a lot of turkey hearts and for $3.29 a pound if I remember correctly I could get a 40 pound block of solidly frozen turkey hearts from Reel Raw. I can get it already bagged for less money from Raw Feeding Miami. I like the meat from Reel Raw but just can't afford it.

You can look for sales from My Pet Carnivore. I just love their stuff. I could never buy everything from there, but for things you'll never find locally and for things you don't feed in bulk they're fantastic. I can't say how much I miss them, because our local dog meat company has such low quality I refuse to buy from them at any price. 

for my 65 pound dog, I buy pork shoulder roasts. He eats the bone, but it keeps him busy for a long time. i cut about half the meat off. I used to buy goat heads for my dogs but that store closed down. Ethnic groceries often have great things for dogs. Not giving you advice but your first dog might be a bit smaller than that, both because of the roommates and because of the storage space for food as well as the cost. Everything is cheaper for a smaller dog but time.


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## InkedMarie (Sep 9, 2011)

OldGnarlHead said:


> Alright, cool, that knocks some money off the table. I was just looking at Reel Raw Dog and to get to that free 50lb shipping mark is SO expensive! I think I'll stick to local. Also My Pet Carnivore delivers to Lafayette which is literally three miles from where I'm sitting so that's good. Still looking to really buy from local butchers though.


If you're feeding grinds, Reel Raw is a good value but the other stuff is a bit more costly.


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## OldGnarlHead (Feb 17, 2016)

What I was planning on doing was feeding ground for a month-ish before feeding full on PMR, just to get Dog's body all ready for the transition. I know it's not necessary by any means, but it would definitely make me feel better, since I am adopting a dog whose background I have no clue of and whose bodily functions I am not totally attuned to yet. I was planning to get ground chicken/bone/organs, ground beef/bone/tripe/organs, whole ground rabbit carcasses (fur and all) and ground tripe and spleen. Which, for a 50lb dog (again assumptions are being made) at the low end of feeding (1lb) would be ~100 for a month, which is doable for me. All those grinds have close to a 80/10/10 ratio, so I feel like it'd be pretty balanced, and the added tripe would helo to really get Dog's digestive system ready. Does that sound reasonable before transitioning to PMR?


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## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

Well, I'm not the one to answer that since when I get a dog they are on full raw from their first meal. I adopt/rescue older dogs and I never have a clue what their background is - doesn't matter. Sick, well, emaciated, fat - that means nothing. They're going on raw. It's worked fine every time. 

the suggestion I would make is don't feed organs for a few weeks. That's why you normally start with a lighter meat like chicken. chicken bones are also easier to digest to start with. If you feed organs, if you feed too much, if you feed too rich, your dog is likely to get diarrhea.

I also don't believe that diarrhea is "normal" or that there is a transition period. Diarrhea is not normal. The transition is "here's your raw meat."


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## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

When I have a dog that absolutely has to have grinds for some reason, I get one protein. No organs added, no mixed proteins. Just something like ground chicken. You just have absolutely no control. There could be an extraordinary amount of fat, which has happened to me and I ended up with about 20 pounds of nothing but blubber with maybe a little chicken in there. That's why I like responsible places like My Pet Carnivore, their meat is good and it's always what they say it is. 

The 80/10/10 rule isn't something you want to follow from the first because organs are out the window. I actually feed way less organ than that. I'm not sure where that rule came from. Organs have vitamins that are fat soluble, not water soluble, and the organs store them. I probably feed 2-3% organs but I don't really track it. 

I also feed more fat than the 80/10/10 rule which doesn't even include fat. A dog fed prey model raw gets energy from fat. It greases the joints and the organs. Makes the skin shiny. Supplies energy. You don't normally start out with a lot of fat because of diarrhea issues, but within a few weeks all my dogs are eating quite a bit of fat. 

And the first rule is "over time." If you worried about doing a ratio every meal you will always be obsessing over the ratio.


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## OldGnarlHead (Feb 17, 2016)

Hrmm okay. Based off some things I read i guessed that I could just switch from kibble to ground. If that's the case, then I guess I'll just start off PMR and stick to mostly as local as possible sources.


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## naturalfeddogs (Jan 6, 2011)

I think you will have a much easier time switching to PMR, and skip the grounds myself. If you start off with grinds, having organs and more than one protein at a time all at once you are probably asking for digestive issues.


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## OldGnarlHead (Feb 17, 2016)

Alright, will do. Do yall feel that there is any need supplements other than something to provide omegas if needed? I was thinking of maybe adding some kelp powder just in case there were any gaps or anything. I am also planning on giving Dog turmeric/golden paste because turmeric is soooooo beneficial and good for inflammation and everything.

Just bought some things for Dog! Water bowl, nail clippers, Kongs, and kitchen scale (half for Dog, half for me XD)! So very excited!


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## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

You don't need turmeric unless you have a reason. There's no reason to give anti-inflammatory stuff to a healthy dog. Nor any of that other stuff. I only use supplements to fix a specific problem. Don't make raw feeding too complicated. Humans don't take an aspirin every day to ward off a headache they don't have.

I'm very excited for you. Where are you going to get the dog? Is this something that's going to happen very soon?


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## OldGnarlHead (Feb 17, 2016)

Alright, alright, lol, I'll hold off. 

And well, there are several places in Lafayette I am looking at, as well as Indianapolis and Anderson. My apartment has an over 60lb weight restriction and I cant get any kind of Pit mix, which makes adopting from state funded shelters really hard. There's this pup I'm in love with whose a American Staffordshire/Boxer and I'm very uncertain if my apartment would let me get her, cause of the "pit bull" ish part of her. I am planning on asking and seeing if I can have an staffie, or just saying she's a boxer mix. And I'm planning on getting the pup as soon as school is out in the very beginning of May, which just so happens to be on my birthday this year so yay! So only about two and a half months left for me to prepare, buy everything, research, etc. Im so excited because my parents never let me have a dog when I was a kid, so this is very much a fulfillment of self for me  And I get to give a shelter pup a good forever home!


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## MollyWoppy (Mar 19, 2010)

What I would do is say is that you have a Boxer mix. When you see the vet, tell them the pup is a boxer mix and they'll put that down on their records. Thats what I did with my Cattle Dog x German Shepherd. Down here in FL, a GSD will, more than likely, mean you can not get house insurance. I told my vet my pup was a ACD and thats whats on her records. So if I ever get any grief, I have it there in black and white. Do not mention Pitbull anywhere. I'm not saying pitbulls aren't absolutely super dogs, but you just don't want to cause yourself more grief than necessary.
With feeding raw, start checking out all your local shops. Like Xellil said, Walmart has some really good bargains, especially when the meat is about to expire. Asian and Mexican shops, discount places, you can pick up some really good bargains. 
Raw Paws is based out of IN. It has got super expensive lately, but sometimes they have good specials, and I think you get some incentives when you sign up. Raw Feeding Miami is pretty good with shipping and their monthly specials can be pretty economical, as long as you buy in lots of 50-55lbs or so. 
To my utter dismay, I've been on a budget the past year or so, but I've managed to give my dogs great variety at a pretty good price, at least as cheap as feeding a great quality kibble. Have a look around Facebook too, join some groups and I'm sure you'll make friends who are somewhat local that can help you source cheaper meat. Thats what all of us have done, networked on DFC and then FB and made lifelong friends all with a common goal of feeding and taking care of our dogs the absolute best way we can.


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## OldGnarlHead (Feb 17, 2016)

Thanks so much! I was planning on saying that she was just a possible boxer/bulldog mix/mutt and leaving it at that, since shelter dogs are so variable, its pretty believeable. And she doesnt really look very pit bull-ish, mostly kinda bulldog-ish/boxer-ish so that's good! That's even if I get Delilah, I love her, but she may not be a good match, yanno. We'll see!

And that's very good to hear on the budget stuff, because Im on a budget too. Im so excited to get my pup and Im really looking forward to raw feeding and training my pup, going hiking, camping, swimming, exploring! Ive been reading through a LOT of old threads, I think I'm on page 19 of the threads lol! But I am so excited, I dont think there's been a day I havent mentioned Dog to my boyfriend! So excited...


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## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

I find that so refreshing. I had dogs since I was born. I don't know what it is to want one and not have one. So to see you so excited about your first dog just about makes me want to cry. You will be the BEST dog owner ever!


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## OldGnarlHead (Feb 17, 2016)

Awe :') that's such a sweet thing for you to say, I really appreciate it. I just wanna do the best for my pup and I'm really looking forward to having a best forever friend.


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## naturalfeddogs (Jan 6, 2011)

I like that you are doing all this research first, planning, and getting your "P's and Q's" all in order. I so wish more people cared enough to do the same.


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## OldGnarlHead (Feb 17, 2016)

Well, animals are really important to me, and Ive always been really dilligent on my pre-pet homework. I love learning about animals (hence the whole Wildlife major thing I'm working on) but iunno, dogs really hit a soft spot because I never had them and, if you think about it, they really did co-evolve with us. I feel like it's unfair to them to treat them like anything less than companions and friends. Ive been spending so many hours on the internet trying to find the best products: shampoo, bowls, kennels, clippers, toys, going through almost every page of every raw food delivery site, local butcher shop etc, and its just because I really want there to not be a learning curve. Any dog that's had to suffer through abandonment and a shelter deserves the best from the very start and I will do everything I can to provide that. 
Im to bed, im falling asleep typing. worked about 30 hours over the past 4 days, have had like 1500 calories over the past 3 days and had to hike around for four hours in lab today lol. Dog stuff came today. couldnt wait to unbox it, even with the roommate asleep. pkanning on posing a picture of Lyles soon, so you can see the cuteness that im hoping to welcome to my life. niight  thanks again for all the kind words.


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## OldGnarlHead (Feb 17, 2016)

this is the little pupper

I think for the next round of dog supplies Im going to be buying some all natural lavender dog shampoo, one of those dog water bottles that has the little trough on it for the dogs to lap water out of, maybe an all natural (no dyes or anything) cotton rope toy, the hippie in me wishes it was organic, but I digress, a raised portable dog bed and maybe a generic first aid kit, because I've been wanting one anyway, and it could never hurt, what with having a bouncy pup too.
I was wondering if anyone had any experience with Musher's Secret? I was thinking of getting it because it gets beatingly cold and blisteringly hot here and I was thinking about booties but something about shoes on dogs is something that I just dont like.


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## InkedMarie (Sep 9, 2011)

she is beautiful!


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## OldGnarlHead (Feb 17, 2016)

She looks so smiley and happy and it makes me happy 

I would like to ask a vaccination question, by the way. Ive caught bits and pieces from around here that people who raw feed tend to not like to vaccinate. I, trying to be the best pup-mama, am wondering why this is a thing? I always thought vaccinations were okay and like people vaccines where they're safe for most people and such? Ive stumbled across this thread and am kinda horrified by the little pug that had such a bad reaction. Why are dog vaccines so reviled and what are decent alternatives? Again, I do plan on taking Dog hiking, swimming in lakes/rivers/streams, camping, etc., so would vaccinations be a good idea or whatnot? A little confused/worried about that all.


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## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

I haven't vaccinated my dogs in years. We live in the country and so they are not isolated from other animals. 

As a human, I've never been vaccinated except for polio. 

That's a whole long thing; what I would suggest is that you do some research on it. If you get a dog from a rescue he/she will be fully vaccinated but before the next round is due you should think about chronic conditions dogs have that they shouldn't. 

Also just as important you should think about the pesticides and larvacides you put on/in your dog to combat parasites. I, personally, wouldn't like to swallow a pesticide. Yet we do it to our dogs all the time.

I started raw feeding before I went holistic. It was a natural progression. Plus, the people I met here pulled me along, sometimes kicking and screaming because I had been brainwashed my whole life to believe certain things - dry dog food is good for my dog, vaccinations are harmless, poisons we wouldn't put on ourselves are fine for out dogs, etc. Vets will sometimes intimidate their clients into medications and foods and poisons that are harmful, not helpful. 

Feeding raw is a good start. I always ask myself about any kind of "preventative" - what are the odds my dogs will die if they get the disease? What are the odds they will GET the disease? What are the side effects of allopathic medications? How much money does the vet make from pushing it on me? And most importantly - how can I do it a better way??

And yes, vaccinations can cause permanent problems in a dog. They never tell you that when they poke so casually. And not all of those problems are going to show up within minutes or hours of the vaccination.


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## OldGnarlHead (Feb 17, 2016)

Hrmm, I'll definitely dig deeper. Are there any topical alternatives to keep mosquitoes and ticks at bay? Im only asking because for the first few months, Dog and I are most likely going to be hammock living. Im all for whatever will give my pup the longest and healthiest life.

Went and poked around in the meat section of my local meijer today. Felt kinda odd because I'm kinda a vegan XD Nothing much, some organic whole chicken, chicken breast with ribs, some farm raised trout, some decent cuts of pork and beef, but pretty expensive. I found a lamb leg or butt, not really sure, and a half rack, pre frenched. The butt whatever was like 33 dollars, and the rack wasnt much better. Peroused the dog isles and surprisingly found a bucket of 100% dehydrated beef lung. Took all my willpower to not buy it. I told the boyfriend we'd have to go to walmart to see if they had weird things. He's kinda squirmy on the whole raw meats thing, but just because he doesnt want to have to deal with raw meat lol. I (the vegan) oddly enjoy butchering things and am totally fine with the handling of the raw meaty things.


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## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

You just need the cheapest chicken quarters to start. WalMart has them for around fifty cents a pound, in bags. Nothing you buy should have more than 100mg of sodium per serving. 

Chicken breast has little nutrition. You want to only feed small oily fish from deep waters like herring so trout doesn't offer much. Lamb is expensive. Make sure any treats or meat you buy are not sourced in China (Made in USA doesn't mean anything but that the food could be shipped from China and bagged in the USA). Grocery store and pet store treats, especially chicken, are very dangerous as most are from China and they have been killing dogs for years. 

My primary boneless meat is beef heart. I order it from the local butcher by the case but ethnic stores often have it. It's very nutrition dense and extremely cheap compared to even ground beef. It has lots of fat on it for energy. Pork shoulder roasts are good for both meat and bone for a 60 pound dog. Turkey necks too. I get turkey necks from my butcher for .79 a pound. Also chicken hearts for .98 a pound. 

My dogs eat garlic in the summer. Keeps mosquitoes, ticks, and fleas off. There's a garlic product called Bug Off, or you can feed real garlic. Onions will kill a dog and garlic has the same thing in it but not as strong. So you'll read lots of stuff about how you shouldn't feed garlic to a dog but many people do with success, including me. 

Heartworm "preventatives" prevent nothing. They kill larvae in the bloodstream. People toss their dogs outside to get bitten by mosquitoes hundreds of times, and then they periodically kill the larvae. My dogs are outside all the time. I don't want them to get bitten by bugs any more than I like it for myself. 

I also buy a product called Wondercide. It's a cedar oil, and I can spray them with it. Repels bugs. Some people use guiness beer (only from Ireland, only in bottles) as a heartworm preventative. There's also a product called heartwormfree that's a preventative and that also treats heartworms. I've successfully treated a heartworm + dog with it. I live in Texas and none of my dogs have ever come up heartworm positive. The one that had it was a stray my brother brought me that had been living under his house. 

If you do end up getting talked into something like heartguard, the minimum life cycle of a heartworm larvae is 45 days. More likely longer. So don't do it every 30 days like they tell you. It's just to put more money into their pockets and because they think we're so stupid we can count to 30 but not 45.


I'm glad meat doesn't bother you, being a vegan. I'm surprised how many people are disgusted by it, even those who eat meat. It's the natural course of things for a carnivore. I respect vegans and vegetarians tremendously who understand that and don't try to feed their dogs like people.


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## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

Oh, I use Wondercide on me, too. I spend a lot of time in the yard. As with any natural treatment, you have to apply it more often than chemicals.

And it's great for knocking mosquitoes right out of the air. It comes in a squirt bottle


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## naturalfeddogs (Jan 6, 2011)

I'm ordering Wondercide this weekend for the dogs. I hope it repels fleas well, because they are crazy terrible here all year. I have heard nothing but good about the stuff. Time to break down and get some!


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## OldGnarlHead (Feb 17, 2016)

AAhHH SO much good info! If any of you have seen Futurama, it's like im a Scammer and my spronger is going insane XD

Im mostly planning on buying any dehydrated treats and stuff from Hare Today or MPC anyway. At the store yesterday, I hit my boyfriend in the face with a pack of bully sticks XD he wasnt terribly amused but I thought it was great. 

But that's great to hear about the medicines and stuff. Im a person who generally likes to try the more natural ways to do things before resorting to lots of derived chemicals and stuff. I dont know why my avatar doesnt show, but Im a dreaded up hippie child so that's just kind of my nature I guess haha. But I am very interested about the garlic, how much do you feed your dogs? I personally love garlic and we always have a few heads of it in the house so that's good to know. We always used to use finely ground fennel on the cat when he had fleas, but it just made them hop off him and onto us! Definitely going to look into the Wondercide.

And I definitely don't mind getting handsy with the meats. The only bit that bothers me is popping bones out of joints. Gives me the willies... I'm primarily vegan because I don't like how the US (and others) treats their animals that they raise for production. I feel bad deriving my life from something that didn't really get to live one of its own, especially when I can healthily subsist without meat or animal products. But dogs aren't people and need their meat, so meat they shall get!


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## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

I agree. It seems hypocritical so say how much we love our dogs while feeding them animals so cruelly treated. I do my best to source pasture raised, humanely treated animals or game meat but I still am forced to feed some farmed meat for economic reasons. 

We also spray our yard with Neem, and I dissolve diatomaceous earth in water and sprinkle it in our yard but I think if you live in an apartment you won't do anything like that. But you could spray Wondercide on your balcony or porch and the grassy area you will take your dog out to pee.

Here's a decent article on garlic from Dogs Naturally. Garlic For Dogs: Poison Or Medicine? - Dogs Naturally Magazine

I use Wondercide and love it. I also buy Neem bar soap from the same place I get the Wondercide and that's what I bathe my dogs in. But if I spray wondercide and miss their toes, the mosquitoes will be on their toes. And it doesn't last very long. Since my dogs are outside a lot, I think the garlic gives them better all over protection from bites.


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## OldGnarlHead (Feb 17, 2016)

I think I would still be vegetarian if I wasnt vegan. I bought some wild-caught lox the other day and my boyfriend pointed out I was still eating animal and I almost lost my lunch. Eh, oh well. 

And I'll definitely have to look into the neem oil. I usually make my own human bug spray with lavender, patchouli, and citronella and it works pretty well, and I know lavender is good for puppers so might do a little of that too. I will look into that article as well.. I was just saying to the boyfriend while walking though the dog isles, 'why buy 30 pill pockets for 9 bucks when you can buy 30 chicken hearts for like 90 cents....' lol. Im kinda in love with the whole idea of a natural dog and raw feeding.

Just read the article and I think I'm in love with that site....

ALso, random question, I dont think we have very much turkey around here other than maybe wings or drumsticks, which I know can be hard for some dogs. I dont know if ill have room for a whole turkey in my little freezer, even if it is broken down. Do y'all think it would be okay if I pre-broke the bones with a mallet/hammer that it would be okay for a dog to get through, or would it be better to really slowly transition from chicken straight to pork?


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## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

I don't feed turkey except for necks. Those wings are so much bone, and legs are a lot of bone for even a larger dog and it gives my big dog constipation. I do know people who buy turkeys on sale after Thanksgiving for next to nothing and there's some great meat on them if you can get them non-enhanced. Most turkey is pumped full of saline solution.

However, I often start a dog off feeding raw by hammering a bony piece down. It makes it easier to eat and teaches them how to do it without all the work. It's also good for dogs that don't have a lot of teeth. And lazily, if I'm in a hurry or if it's really cold outside (my dogs eat outside) I'll still smash up a duck head for my dachshund because it takes him FOREVER to eat one.

A whole turkey is a lot for a small freezer. Would it be possible for you to get one of those tiny freezers? You might even be able to keep it in your bedroom. EdgeStar 1.1 Cu. Ft. Stainless Steel Freezer w/ Lock - CRF150SS-1


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## OldGnarlHead (Feb 17, 2016)

I was just looking at freezers. There's a ~3ft^3 one ive been looking at that's not too expensive, but I want to see if I turn my fridge to a freezer if on at full blast


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## chowder (Sep 7, 2008)

Hi, I just wanted to jump in and add to your question about the vaccinations. If the pup you get has been vaccinated at least once (which we can assume it has if it comes from a rescue), they have proven that vaccines give a minimum of 7 years to possibly lifetime protection. So aside from the other dangers involved with getting the vaccination repeated over and over and over, the dog does not even need to be revaccinated once you get him or her. Repeat vaccinations were invented as a way to get people in for a yearly health checkup at the vets. The dog already has immunity to the disease.


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## OldGnarlHead (Feb 17, 2016)

That's what I've been reading, Chowder. It's kind of silly when you think about it. We don't get the mumps vaccine over and over again. Sometimes boosters, yeah, but that's about it. 

Went to the local walmart yesterday. Found some decent meats for some okay prices. Found some really decently priced lamb and such. Nothing too 'icky'. They had beef tongue and liver and lamb liver, but didnt have a nutrition lable so I couldnt check the sodium levels. I was hoping they'd have chicken feet but nope. They did have wild caught cleaned and gutted lake smelt which looked pretty good. The boyfriend heckled me endlessly for getting so excited over meat. Im going to have to go butcher bumming at some point to find a good meat market nearby. 

Really looking into getting a small freezer, only because im getting addicted to the 'SCORE!' threads of things people get off CL and stuff. I am a hardcore mooch and that kind of thing really appeals to me. Its not like I dont have the money, its just almost 200 bucks that I dont want to spend XD Will see if the fridge can get cold enough to act as a freezer.


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## chowder (Sep 7, 2008)

My dog hardly ever get fish. A lot of dogs don't like fish and you may find yourself having a freezer full and no use for it. They can get the omega they need from beef and red meat. Many of us don't feed much fish, if any. My dogs get mainly chicken because that's what I can afford. I stock up when its $.39 a pound. Then I round out their meals with the more expensive food the I either get from raw feeding miami or I hit the local grocery store for the yellow sticker meats. You'd be surprised what bargains you can find once you get good at spotting those yellow stickers in the meat bins! One of my dogs can't handle beef very well and gets more pork. They all get a lot of turkey because I got them for $.39 a pound at Thanksgiving and filled the freezer. And they LOVE turkey necks. You may have to wait and see what meats your dog tolerates well.


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## OldGnarlHead (Feb 17, 2016)

Yeah that is a very good point. All the meat at Walmart was over a dollar a pound. Im hoping its less expensive at the butcher. The lest expensive cuts were the whole chickens, which I would be fine with buying and could fit a lot of broken down into my freezer. I'll have to post a picture of my mini fridge/freezer. Its actually really nice. I didnt see any discounted meat when we were there, but they could have just recently purged the shelves. I plan on buying some Grizzly salmon oil for Dog to help those omegas out though. Just waiting till next friday so I can buy more stuff for the pupper. A lot of the cheaper meats were soaked in "A solution of [meat] broth, sea salt, and seasonings" and I was kinda grossed out. Surprisingly the Tyson cuts were the better of the meats. At least none of it was Perdue, yuck. I guess Tyson's not much better. 

Anyway, enough about the ickness of factory farmed poultry. There's a cheap(er) 5 cubic foot freezer for just under 200. I would buy it, but again, Dog and I will probably be hammock/car living for the summer so it may just be a weekly run to the store to get meats. At least I dont have to worry about organs for a while.

Went to go fleece shopping for Dog's bed. Came up with some nice, foresty prints. Its taking all of my self-control to not just take the topper off my bed and make it right now! But I keep telling myself I have to wait to know how big Dog will be and how big his kennel will be, etc. etc.... Im going home home over the weekend unfortunately, but I will be able to pick up the dog leash I started making over last summer. It's actually really nice and all I need for it is the clip on end. Debating between buying one or just using a high-weight mini hammock carabiner. I have a few extras that are rated at 1000lbs so i might just use those... Eh, we'll see. 

It's been a really, really long week and I actually get one day off where I dont have work or school. Will probably use it to bum around the area for butcher shops, maybe pop into the local petstore, and definitely go to the park, if the weather is warm enough. Just got hit by a blizzard here. Anyway, back to thread surfing  im on page 36 now!


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## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

LOL! Those were the days.... back on page 36  I love your dedication.


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## naturalfeddogs (Jan 6, 2011)

I was giving garlic for the past year to all of mine. I used the Bug Off garlic from Springtime Inc. The dosages for sizes are on the bottle, but it just stopped working. Maybe the fleas became immune? IDK. I resorted to using Ultrashield horse spray, labeled for use on dogs. It kills, but doesn't repel, and it's such a strong chemical I just can't keep using it. Now that I have found out more about Wondercide, that's what I am doing next, no question.


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## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

I'm thinking about trying real garlic 100% this year. For bigger dogs the doses of Bug Off are huge.


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## naturalfeddogs (Jan 6, 2011)

Bug Off doses are huge for larger ones. I was giving triple size doses, for 420+ lb dogs. 

How are you going to go about using 100% garlic? Real cloves?


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## OldGnarlHead (Feb 17, 2016)

Eh, all info is good info, I feel. Im not reading every thread, probably around 60%. Just picking out the things that look interesting. Im so ready to just get started...


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## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

naturalfeddogs said:


> Bug Off doses are huge for larger ones. I was giving triple size doses, for 420+ lb dogs.
> 
> How are you going to go about using 100% garlic? Real cloves?


My dog was 90 pounds and at triple dose it was something like six scoops. He really got to where he hated his food. Then, I read something that said the dried garlic isn't nearly as effective as fresh.

That Dogs Naturally article has the dosage and I'm going to get a garlic press and I think I can use turkey or chicken hearts so I don't have to put it all over their food.


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## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

OldGnarlHead said:


> Eh, all info is good info, I feel. Im not reading every thread, probably around 60%. Just picking out the things that look interesting. Im so ready to just get started...


Try not to overthink the food thing. My favorite raw feeder ever, when I was just starting and scared to death about it, told me raw feeding is simple. Buy a chicken, feed a chicken. I have repeated that so many times over the years.... and it works.


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## InkedMarie (Sep 9, 2011)

For all: take a look at the holistic flea/tick collars from HolisticFamilyandPet dot com. We got them last year for the first time, late in the season but no insects after.


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## naturalfeddogs (Jan 6, 2011)

It said web page not available.


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## OldGnarlHead (Feb 17, 2016)

ugh three hour naps are awful lol.. I work a late shift because my boss is a terrible person and forgets Im a student... they had me working so much over the weekend I ended up having a massive breakdown because my boss asked me to come in early and I wouldnt have had time to finish a huge project.... looking for a new job...

ANYWAY, I read somewhere on here that someone used to put a clove in a chicken heart, then freeze it and give it as a treat. Thats what I was planning on doing. Maybe not freezing it though. It might hurt some of the beneficial compounds in the garlic. 

And Im just reading the juicy bits, really. Now that I got a handle on how to start I've just been reading the threads that are like 'The biggest OG SH*T moments since going RAW' or 'Is it okay to feed [insert random weird meat here]' and stuff. Also most of the vet ones. One of the other main reasons I'm planning on doing this is because it helps the dogs be really healthy which cuts out on vet bills. To me that means I can save more for not having to go in for a teeth cleaning or for allergy symptoms, and save for the big emergency visits.

Im having issues getting PMR's validation email :/


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## InkedMarie (Sep 9, 2011)

naturalfeddogs said:


> It said web page not available.


I forgot the "s". It's HolisticFamilyandPets dot com.
I ordered yesterday & they arrived today


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## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

I'm not sure a whole clove would work. Dogs can't digest the cellulose in vegetables unless it's broken down. Everything I read says to crush it.


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## naturalfeddogs (Jan 6, 2011)

xellil said:


> I'm not sure a whole clove would work. Dogs can't digest the cellulose in vegetables unless it's broken down. Everything I read says to crush it.


That's what I have read also. They don't work in "whole" form.


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## OldGnarlHead (Feb 17, 2016)

Didnt think of that, you are right. I wouldnt bother with a mincer or garlic press oranything. They're all so hard to clean. I just lay whatever knife im using (usually a chef's knife which has a wider blade) and smash the sh*t out of the clove with the heel of my hand. Alton Brown (my culinary hero) uses a marble counter sample that he smooshes it to a paste with it on a cutting board. I guess you could do a whole bunch at once and keep it in olive oil. Then you have lots of garlic on hand for the dogs and tasty garlic olive oil for you... When all the garlic is gone from the jar just throw a fresh sprig of rosemary in it and itd be perfect.... 

Sorry, I love making food XD

So do any of you keep a general feeding schedule? Like for what days you feed bones/meat/organs? Or do you do a little each day? Or do you just go by their poops? I'd like to prepackage all the meats I get for the month into baggies/containers so I dont have to deal with keeping track of thawing meats and such. 
Also, im thinking of going containers over baggies. Its killing my minimalist side, but they're easily bleachable for reuse and I wouldnt have to keep buying baggies... What do you think?


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## naturalfeddogs (Jan 6, 2011)

I tend to not really have a schedule, but I try to go with bone in meals at least every other day. Sometimes it's every third day.


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## OldGnarlHead (Feb 17, 2016)

For just meat meals do you just give a chunk of heart or roast or something?


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## naturalfeddogs (Jan 6, 2011)

Yea. Anything boneless. It could be pork, beef, deer, turkey, chicken etc......


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## OldGnarlHead (Feb 17, 2016)

Alright cool. On the on-campus butcher they had a price list of things they have, and they didn't have beef heart but they did have pork heart. Does anyone feed pork heart? For some reason pork heart icks me out. Also, are pork ribs considered rec bones for bigger dogs or can they crunch those up?


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## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

Pork heart is a good red meat almost as good as beef heart. Any heart is going to be more nutritious than other cuts. I feed beef heart every day, no matter what else I'm feeding. Pork heart is also cheaper than beef heart.

And I'll do the smashing-with-the hand thing, thanks. Or a hammer! I love smashing things with a hammer. That sounds so much easier than a press.

Pork ribs are not a rec bone but they are great nevertheless. Leave several ribs stuck together so they don't get swallowed whole. I sometimes buy those ribs when they go on sale.


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## OldGnarlHead (Feb 17, 2016)

That's good. I was messing around on Hare Today earlier, and they have a lot of organs that are pretty cheap. I'm mostly planning on using mail order for the stuff I cant find around here, like tripe or random things like goat or phesant (for special Dog occaisons, like Gotcha day celebrations :3) or like sheep/lamb/bison organs and whatnot.

XD if youre going to use a hammer, I'd get two cutting boards and put the cloves in between the cutting boards, then whack the top board with a rubber mallet. That way the cloves dont bounce away!

So for ribs, is it better to try and find whole ribs or are like baby back ribs okay, and ribs that have been cut and have cut ends? I dont want any cut puppy mouths. Ive only found beef ribs that have been cut, Im not sure about pork ribs though. 

Im thinking of going to a local dog shelter soon. Not to look for dogs, just to volunteer and get some dog time in. Ive been doing so much research and things that Im almost getting slightly put out. Like, 'just gimme my dog already and let me live my life' kinda thing, lol, so I figure Ill just go volunteer for a bit and practise. Itll be interesting, because Im going to be applying for a job at a local fish shop and Im pretty sure that they're pet friendly, so I could bring Dog along with me instead of having her in a cage for a few hours. The only thing is that they have a huge red and blue macaw that is super loud and not very well socialized and I dont want Dog and Macaw getting into it. Or Dog barking at all the fishies. I plan on having him really well trained though, so eh.


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## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

The shelter will love you. Those dogs need walked so badly, just to get away for awhile. They are starved for some quiet and human attention. Sounds like you already have a plateful, though. 

I will take your advice on the garlic, thanks. 

I think all the ribs from the grocery store have been cut. They are ok. What you don't want to get are bones cut with sharp points on them, like t-bones. Baby back ribs are fine, as are spare ribs. Spare ribs are heavier and are more of a workout.


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## OldGnarlHead (Feb 17, 2016)

Yeah, I do, but I think I need to cut back on my hours after the 100% pure, unadulterated bullsh*t that happened this week... ugh... Id love to take the boyfriend to one of the shelters I'm looking at adopting from and walking the dogs. That way the shelter gets to know us before we maybe adopt and vice versa. And that way I get to get outside and de-stress with some cuddly puppers. Everyone wins!

And that's good to know on the ribs thing. All the t-bones I've seen are too much for too little, so I probably wouldnt give those anyway. Is Dog going to eat the rib bones or will it be more of a eat-off-the-bone deal? I dont want something too big to be swallowed, especially sice Im looking at a smaller bully dog... Ill post a picture of the other dog I'm looking at. He's a little too small for me, but yanno, if he has a good personality then I dont really care 

Turns out that neither Delilah nor the other dog are up on the shelter's website nor petfinder/adoptapet... Good for them. Its not like I had my heart set on either, because there are so many factors, yanno. Although, you spend a lot of time kinda dreaming about the dog you want. Apparently I said 'Lyles, come here Delilah' in my sleep a week or so ago. :sighs: good for them though. I bet their homes are awesome.


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## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

It is true that we don't always get the dog we want, but we always get the dog we need  

After you get your dog, whoever that dog might be, if you select according to your lifestyle and give him/her the necessary training and exercise, that will be the perfect dog for you. It seems like you are a good fit for an active dog and most dogs get returned to shelters, in my opinion, because they are bored and need a physical and mental outlet. So you can adopt a dog that many people wouldn't be a good fit for. I, personally, adopt and foster senior dogs because that's where I am in my life now. There was a time in my life when I had 10 active dogs and we ran five miles a day, but no more. 

They'll eat the whole thing, bone and all. I don't feed my dogs beef ribs, only pork ribs. Some people feed beef ribs but they're so bony and I know of at least two dogs that have broken teeth on them. I would never count on a bully dog picking meat off a bone, and you want to give them bones that are a workout but that won't break their teeth.

my small concern is that you are a first time dog owner and a bully breed is not an easy dog. They're not for everyone. I would just make sure that whatever dog you get has no dog aggression.


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## OldGnarlHead (Feb 17, 2016)

Yeah, I love hiking and camping and exploring. Not so much running. Mind you, I used to play varsity rugby, so I _can_ run, I just dont enjoy it XD 

And I am a first time dog owner, that's true, but I used to look after a lot of dogs when I used to live in a sort of a commune. I was paid to look after these 2 collies, but I more often than not looked after several more dogs, sometimes upwards to 7 dogs at once. Ive had my fair share of breaking up dog fights... Eh, the collies werent too fond of this overzealous American Staffordshire... But its true, I keep saying I want a bully, but I want another dog first to learn from. There are so many poor pits at the shelters that all need good homes. But I do appreciate the concern on the dog's front  Id love a collie mix or something of the like. Id even love a special needs dog. The special needs dogs tend to gravitate towards me, oddly enough. 

But good to know on the bones, again XD. 

Anyway, the boyfriend and I are off to see Ron White's stand up for our anniversary  so very excited.


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## OldGnarlHead (Feb 17, 2016)

The show was AMAZING!! And afterwards we went to my boyfriend's house to pick up some of his mail, and his brother's girlfriend trains dogs for a Medical Mutts program, so I got to have some dog time with the most loving smooth retriever/collie mix ever! His name is Poe, and he literally curled up like a baby in Arne's lap so he would love on him! Ive never really wanted a retreiver kind of dog because they seem so... stereotypical? I know that sounds shallow, but after meeting Poe I am totally on board! He's training to be a diabetes alert dog and he practiced 'alerting' us, which pretty much meant he got to poke us in our crotches with his little snoot. 
Ive been in a really bad funk this week, and kinda felt down about a lot, including Dog, but now I'm super excited again! I cant believe I'm getting a dog in two months!!


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## MollyWoppy (Mar 19, 2010)

I just want to add to Xellil's comment about getting a dog that shows dog aggression. Take pains to find a dog that does not exhibit any signs of fear. Get some books or research on the internet or Facebook and look for the body language that indicates fear. Fear is one of the worst things a first time dog owner can encounter. Fearful dogs have a reaction, when they encounter something that worries them, it's flight or fight. If they can't get away, the next thing they do is fight. It's not the dogs fault at all, they are just reacting because to them it's a life or death situation and who can blame them. But, for a first time dog owner, this is not something you want to, or can, deal with.


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## OldGnarlHead (Feb 17, 2016)

Thank you very much MollyWoppy! I have been looking a lot into dog body language, so that when I take Dog to other dog-friendly areas, I can know when it's okay to let them do their thing, and when it's time to step in. Im planning on being very involved with getting my first dog. I think it's kinda irresponsible for someone to just go to a shelter and just pick a dog because it looks cute or because in that instance he walked well on a leash. I plan on taking several weekends off in April and going around to the different shelters I'm looking at and really spending time with the dog(s) I am thinking about getting. That way Ill know for sure that the dog Im getting is a match. There's a rescue that my boyfriend and I discovered (I was stressing and he was being a sweetheart and took me to 2 petstores! Both of which were having adoption events!) and the rescue does a foster-to-adopt program where they let you 'foster' the dog you're thinking about getting and then after 2 weeks, if its a good fit, then you can adopt them  

I found another shelter online that looks nice and they have some amazing dogs. Im trying really hard to not look at dogs, but there's this sweet guy that's a Catahoula Cur/beagle mix and he looks like an awesome hiking companion :3 But, again, I cant get set on any one dog just on looks! March is the month that I need to buy the rest of the dog supplies that I can and April will be Dog search month  Super looking forward to it!

And sorry for the late reply! I turned off the email notifications to this thread so I kinda missed the new post!

Also, Im having trouble receiving the validation email from Prey Model Raw...


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## MollyWoppy (Mar 19, 2010)

Another thing you could consider is foster to adopt. It can take rescue dogs 3 weeks or longer to settle in and show their personalities, and there are many great rescues out there that will do this. That way you can be sure you are getting the right dog for you.
And, one of the most important things you can do is to show it that you are there to protect it. So that they never have to resort to defending themselves.


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