# My dog wet the bed last night...



## BrownieM

So..last night I woke up at 1:30 am because I felt a wet spot under my hand. Millie was curled in a ball sound asleep but she had clearly wet the bed while sleeping! I had to change sheets etc. in the middle of the night. This concerns me. She just turned 8 months old, hasn't had a single accident in at least a month yet peed in her sleep without even knowing...

Does anyone know what this could be? Is this at all normal?

Perhaps it was my fault? I let Millie out to potty around 9:30 pm. Then she DID drink almost a whole bowl of water (oops!) and I was so tired that I fell asleep at 11:30 and I forgot to let her out right before bed.

On the one hand, she did drink lots of water and I did forget to let her out. On the other hand, she is 8 months old and I know for certain that Henry could drink an entire bowl of water and still never, ever have an accident.

I have also considered spay incontinence since she was spayed at 5 months, but I highly doubt it because she has always had strange potty accidents even before she was spayed. For example, during the summer she would often have an accident if she had been swimming earlier in the day. There have also been other times before she was spayed that she would wet my bed/her crate while sleeping.

Sorry for the long post. I'd love some advice!


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## whiteleo

Boy, I've not heard of this, but have you discussed this with your vet at all? This could be a problem that could be fixed, but I would definitely let your vet know about it. Good Luck!


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## MollyWoppy

No chance it could be a urinary track infection?


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## deb9017

When I first got my Dane he would leak urine in his sleep. It wasnt a ton, like he had actually peed, just some. He also would take a really long time to Pee when he went outside. He ended up being diagnosed with a UTI, and once he was treated it was fine. Your girl might have a UTI, or something else that causes inconvenience. But either way, there are drugs that can probably help.


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## DaneMama

How old is Millie?


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## BrownieM

danemama08 said:


> How old is Millie?


She will be 8 months on Tuesday.


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## BrownieM

MollyWoppy said:


> No chance it could be a urinary track infection?


I somewhat doubt it is a UTI because she has been holding her pee just fine today and yesterday. The bed wetting incident happened Friday night. But, I also kind of hope it is a UTI because that is at least fixable and not serious! Some other people have suggested that it could be JRD, UTI or spay incontenence. Who knows.... I just hope she doesn't have to have a lifetime of pills or anything!


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## DaneMama

Well, Akasha was a bit incontinent when she was a 4-9 months old. She eventually grew out of it. Personally I would just keep track of it and go from there....


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## wags

Is she exceptionally thirsty? You said she drank a whole bowl of water. When we first got our yellow lab from a family who wanted to get rid of her due to allergies with their kids (I question this well anyway) she had a urinary track infection a really bad one. I noticed she drank a lot of water and well she was so bad when we had just gotten her she started to bleed and its was certainly not related to being in heat. She was 5 months old and not old enough yet.. She had such a bad UTI. But that was I know from the people who had her they just didn't take her to the vet for anything ~nostarting puppy shots~ nothing at all! Well anyway I did like I said notice she drank a lot of water the evening we got her and then the next morning and it only took having her a day and she was at the vet for this problem. I would keep an eye on what she drinks the amount and see if she has any more episodes and take her into the vet just for your own reassurance that she's not having any problems.


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## JayJayisme

Yeah, a whole bowl of water at once? I'd be worried if one of my dogs did that and I live in a desert climate. Is drinking a whole bowl of water common? Sorry, I don't know what you are feeding your dogs from memory, can you describe their basic diet?


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## BrownieM

No she doesn't usually drink that much! It was kind of a weird day and she spent most of the day in her crate, unfortunately. I had class all day and then fed her, let her potty, back in the crate and went to my sister's rehearsal dinner. 

When I finally got home from dinner, she drank all that water. It was probably because she didn't really get to drink any all day. 

I feed her Nature's Variety raw medallions in the morning and Acana pacifica at night.


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## magicre

when we rescued bubba, he was two years old and we had him neutered.

he was not housetrained, so we started over as with any puppy.....

we then noticed that during sleep, he would urinate....and he'd be dead out. 

we had him tested for uti - negative results.

vet said it was urinary incontinence. i disagreed. i always disagree LOL

i bought belly bands for the boy....and kept adhering to a strict potty schedule and i kept a diary. we got him in sept '09 and he finally stopped in march '10....it took six months to house train him and stop the urinary incontinence. he has not peed in the house since, except for the time when his girlfriend was over and she was marking....i blame the pheremones.

as to drinking an entire bowl of water, unless that's a small bowl.....i'd be a little concerned about that....unless she'd just had a bully stick or something like that.

that's the only thing that makes my dogs thirstier....but not an entire bowl's worth...good catch on that one, jay....hope the twins are doing well.


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## BrownieM

So, I took Millie to the vet today. They did a urinalysis and everything is great. No protein in urine, no red or white blood cells, glucose looks good, No diabetes, no UTI, kidneys functioning well.

The vet said basically what I was expecting to hear. She doesn't have the best sphincter control. This probably would have improved with hormonal maturity but since she is spayed, this obviously won't be happening.

The vet said I could give her estrogen, but said she wouldn't do it with her dog (she has a spoo as well). I have a feeling this can be controlled by making sure Millie goes potty right before bed and doesn't drink much water before bed. Hopefully this was a one time thing.

So, the good news is that she does not actually have anything medically wrong with her. But I am frustrated that I decided to spay Millie at 5 mo. instead of waiting.


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## JayJayisme

BrownieM said:


> It was probably because she didn't really get to drink any all day.


Okay, wait. She has no access to water when she's crated? Glad to hear the vet gave her a clean bill of health but I'm still trying to understand the big picture here.


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## BrownieM

JayJayisme said:


> Okay, wait. She has no access to water when she's crated? Glad to hear the vet gave her a clean bill of health but I'm still trying to understand the big picture here.


No, she does not have access to water when she's crated. Well, that's not entirely true. She has a doggie water bottle attached to her crate but she doesn't drink much from it. She is not usually crated for more than 3-4 hours. She has free access to water when she is not crated. Anyway, she drank such a large amount of water before bed because she did not have as much access to water on Friday as usual.

The big picture is that she has spay incontinence. I found this out today at the vet. 

Hopefully it can be managed by picking up water before bedtime and by making sure she goes potty right before bed. If anyone else has a young dog with spay incontinence I would love advice!


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## spookychick13

BrownieM said:


> No, she does not have access to water when she's crated. Well, that's not entirely true. She has a doggie water bottle attached to her crate but she doesn't drink much from it. She is not usually crated for more than 3-4 hours. She has free access to water when she is not crated. Anyway, she drank such a large amount of water before bed because she did not have as much access to water on Friday as usual.
> 
> The big picture is that she has spay incontinence. I found this out today at the vet.
> 
> Hopefully it can be managed by picking up water before bedtime and by making sure she goes potty right before bed. If anyone else has a young dog with spay incontinence I would love advice!


I do not, but we have a client whose dog does. Unfortunately they went the estrogen route. I wouldn't advise this unless it's to a point where you can't live with it. 

Like danemomma suggested, she might grow out of it.


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## magicre

she is only eight months old. she will need a consistent potty schedule to 'train' her bladder. this is what we did with bubba, who also urinated during a relaxed state.

we took his water up at least two hours before his last potty break. he was taken out to pee right before bed and has not had an accident since. he is three now, but he was two when we neutered him and he was not housetrained.


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## SerenityFL

I'm very interested in this post because my two puppies, (5 months old), are scheduled to get spayed/neutered next Tuesday. ASPCA, vets and some sites I've read all say that 5 months is a good time to get them fixed. Why does no one mention this spay incontinence business?

What does that mean? They got fixed too early? When should they be fixed? I know it should be soon especially since I have a boy and girl dog here, (do NOT need puppies!), but now I'm wondering if I'm doing the right thing?

The dog I used to have I got spayed at about 6 months and she didn't have this problem. Is this common or was 6 months the right age?

Thanks.


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## magicre

SerenityFL said:


> I'm very interested in this post because my two puppies, (5 months old), are scheduled to get spayed/neutered next Tuesday. ASPCA, vets and some sites I've read all say that 5 months is a good time to get them fixed. Why does no one mention this spay incontinence business?
> 
> What does that mean? They got fixed too early? When should they be fixed? I know it should be soon especially since I have a boy and girl dog here, (do NOT need puppies!), but now I'm wondering if I'm doing the right thing?
> 
> The dog I used to have I got spayed at about 6 months and she didn't have this problem. Is this common or was 6 months the right age?
> 
> Thanks.


spay or neuter incontinence is not a 'usual' side effect of spaying or neutering, whether too early or not...

although all of my vets have told me to wait until they are grown to spay or neuter, to give them a chance for their pelvic structures to mature....

i've also read this and i agree with waiting...even though it might mean allowing females their first heat...

i'm told nine months to a year...which is what we've done with all of our dogs...except bubba who was a rescue and he was two years old. he is also the first dog i've ever had that had incontinence when relaxed. and he does not have it anymore, which means he never had it. he just had an untrained bladder.

imagine getting a hysterectomy at the age of 9.


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## BrownieM

I don't know about other breeds, but I have learned that it is not uncommon for standard poodles to develop spay incontinence if spayed early. This is a very useful link about spaying/neutering: 

http://www.naiaonline.org/pdfs/LongTermhealtheffectsofspayneuterInDogs.pdf

I had Millie spayed at 5 months because my vet pushed it (like most vets) and I did not yet have the knowledge I have now. There are benefits and disadvantages of spaying early or waiting for full maturity. All I can say is that if I were to get another female standard poodle, I would wait for full maturity. 

Basically, if a bitch is spayed before she develops hormonally, she doesn't have that estrogen to tighten things up. This is why spay incontinence is treated with estrogen. It doesn't always cause incontinence, though. And sometimes they will still get spay incontinence even if you wait.


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## JayJayisme

BrownieM said:


> No, she does not have access to water when she's crated. Well, that's not entirely true. She has a doggie water bottle attached to her crate but she doesn't drink much from it. She is not usually crated for more than 3-4 hours. She has free access to water when she is not crated.


Okay, well in addition to what others have said here, maybe giving her better access to water while she's crated, allowing her to spread her water intake out more evenly throughout the day, will help. I can imagine that if a dog takes in a large amount of water at one time, that will only exacerbate the incontinence issue. 

Also, I looked back through some of your other posts to determine what you are feeding her. As I understand it, you feed a combination of kibble and premade raw. Correct? If so, I understand that you don't have time to go full raw based on one of your posts but I definitely think raw would help in this situation since raw fed dogs get a significant amount of their dietary water from their food, and actually drink very little water compared to kibble fed dogs. If your dog was getting the bulk of her water from her food, rather than from a water bowl, it may minimize this problem to some degree. Maybe you can do raw for a few months until the problem is resolved? I don't know, just throwing out a suggestion. I realize this may not be an option for you but if you have been thinking about going full raw, this may be a good time to do it.


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## BrownieM

JayJayisme said:


> Okay, well in addition to what others have said here, maybe giving her better access to water while she's crated, allowing her to spread her water intake out more evenly throughout the day, will help. I can imagine that if a dog takes in a large amount of water at one time, that will only exacerbate the incontinence issue.
> 
> Also, I looked back through some of your other posts to determine what you are feeding her. As I understand it, you feed a combination of kibble and premade raw. Correct? If so, I understand that you don't have time to go full raw based on one of your posts but I definitely think raw would help in this situation since raw fed dogs get a significant amount of their dietary water from their food, and actually drink very little water compared to kibble fed dogs. If your dog was getting the bulk of her water from her food, rather than from a water bowl, it may minimize this problem to some degree. Maybe you can do raw for a few months until the problem is resolved? I don't know, just throwing out a suggestion. I realize this may not be an option for you but if you have been thinking about going full raw, this may be a good time to do it.


You definitely have a point! She doesn't drink much water in the morning when I feed her raw but she does drink more water in the evening after her kibble meal. Perhaps raw would be a good solution. Still not quite ready to switch yet, but I'm getting closer! :biggrin:

I can't really give her water in her crate because she likes to splash and blow bubbles in it...It would be disastrous! I have had a poodle bloat before, so I am usually very aware and careful to prevent gulping large amounts of water at once. However, Friday night I may or may not have had a margarita or two at the rehearsal dinner :wink:


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## BrownieM

I am so upset I want to cry. I don't want to have to give her hormone pills, but I also don't want her having accidents all the time. She is 9 months.

Millie just peed in my bed again. She didn't know she did it, of course. I feel terrible because I don't know why this happens to her and I wish it didn't. It's not fair!! I let her out about an hour or 2 ago and then I was watching some tv and doing work in bed withi her. She was sound asleep.

A few minutes ago, I woke her up for a "last call" potty break and that is when I noticed she felt all wet. Sure enough, a wet spot on my bed.

I was really hoping that was a one time thing that would never happen again    It has now only happened 2 times that I know of. Two times in the past 30-40 days.

At what point would I have to try hormones? What other options are there? This is making me cry! I want to have a normal dog that can sleep in my bed with me, and cuddle, without peeing in her sleep.


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## DaneMama

Akasha (20 months) was wetting the bed like that as a younger pup but eventually grew out of it after like 10 months or so. It doesnt sound like she is at the point of needing pills if it's only happened a total of a few times.


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## magicre

BrownieM said:


> I am so upset I want to cry. I don't want to have to give her hormone pills, but I also don't want her having accidents all the time. She is 9 months.
> 
> Millie just peed in my bed again. She didn't know she did it, of course. I feel terrible because I don't know why this happens to her and I wish it didn't. It's not fair!! I let her out about an hour or 2 ago and then I was watching some tv and doing work in bed withi her. She was sound asleep.
> 
> A few minutes ago, I woke her up for a "last call" potty break and that is when I noticed she felt all wet. Sure enough, a wet spot on my bed.
> 
> I was really hoping that was a one time thing that would never happen again    It has now only happened 2 times that I know of. Two times in the past 30-40 days.
> 
> At what point would I have to try hormones? What other options are there? This is making me cry! I want to have a normal dog that can sleep in my bed with me, and cuddle, without peeing in her sleep.


you might try crating her at night...we did that during bubba's incontinent phase....

if she is only doing this once a month, with last month being the first time...i'd say she has an immature bladder system, not necessarily poor control over her bladder function.

i really believe that, until time proves otherwise, that she's immature and young and not fully trained...perhaps she needs a schedule....

either crate her or make her a bed next to your bed.....please don't cry...babies and puppies do this....just when you think they've got it....they do something to make you doubt what you're doing....

you could put panties on her with a pad at night, so at least, the urine stays contained....i would not recommend hormones for woman nor beastie woman.


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## whiteleo

It tough not doing the hormones, it would be soooo much easier on myself as the biodenticals are good but not the same!LOL


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## BrownieM

She is 9 months and 99.9999% potty trained. This never occurs when she is awake - only when she is asleep. This ocurred a few times when she was very young one other time. I agree with you that it may be an immature bladder. I truly hope this is the case. Maybe I will find something she can wear at night so she can sleep with her mommy


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## stajbs

As others have said she is young and perhaps the problem will resolve.

That being said I had two incontinent seniors, one due to cushings, but both due to when we chose to spay I am sure. Wish I had known then what I know now. 

I will say when we opted to put them both on proin we were able to get away with half the doseage for almost two years before we had to give the dose that was appropriate for their weight. As our Cushings girl got older and had to go out every 3 hours I will admit we pulled water up at 11PM, I took her out around minight or a bit later, and then got up again around 5:30PM. Somewhere, somehow you do have to sleep occasionally but I felt guilty about pulling up the water. Plus if she was startled awake for any reason, and popped up she would leak urine. I kept a lot of waterless shampoo on hand too.

Try not to cry and be upset, maybe you can set a regiment, get a routine down that she begins to know, and if she is healthy, pull up her water an hour or so before you take her out one last time. Try what you can before you go the route of meds, at least you will know you tried. If it does not work after time, there are also homeopathic/hoslistic products that may work. I tried them before resorting to proin, but maybe others can speak to whether they work.

Bottom line, if you have to resort to meds, see if a low dose is effective before going with dose for her weight. You can discuss with the vet, and surely you would also know if the lower dose works, like I said it did for us for a long time.

Good luck, and try to stay calm, try all your alternatives, and then make the decisions that are right at the time. That is all anyone can do.


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## BrownieM

Thanks everybody! I overreacted about it the other night - it had been a VERY long week, I settled down with a glass of wine and did some work. Then, I found the poor thing curled up in a wet spot again! 

I was mostly feeling sorry for myself :redface: because her little pee problem has the potential to shatter a lot of my expectations! (Snuggling with her in my bed, allowing her on furniture). Obviously, she is quite healthy and I should really be glad that I have such a healthy dog. 

That being said, I spoke to two different vets about Millie's incontinence problem. Even though there have only been 2 incidences about 6 weeks apart, I still wanted to get their opinion.

The *Holistic/Integrative* vet wants to run another urine sample (send it away because the traditional vet only did an in-house the first time). They will charge $150 for it. Then, once everything else is ruled out, they would talk about giving her medicine like estrogen and/or supplements.

The *Traditional* vet said she recommends giving Millie a 2-3 week dose of estrogen and she thinks this will help "tighten" things up. The vet does not think Millie will need to take estrogen long term. She thinks that Millie simply has a relaxed sphincter and that is why she leaks when she sleeps sometimes. She said she would be willing to send the urine away for analysis again, but it would be expensive ($170) and based on her previous analysis of urine (under the microscope) there was no blood, white blood cells, etc. or anything to suggest a UTI. Kidney problems and diabetes were also ruled out.

I asked about side effects of estrogen and she said that she will give Millie a VERY low dose and she has never seen any side effects. Mammary tumors can happen at very, very high doses, but Millie will be given a very small dose. Not to mention it will only be for a few weeks.

She said she sees situations like this very frequently and a small course of estrogen fixes things.

I'm not sure what I am going to do yet. I may try the 2 weeks of estrogen or I may just wait and see what happens.


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## magicre

your vet didn't mention prion?

i'd rather give that than hormones.....

bubba did the same thing....he'd be sleeping and suddenly he'd pee....the vet
thought he was incontinent with a weak sphincter....and that i should put him on prion because it would never clear up.

i couldn't bring myself to do this, so we worked on training his bladder...being a boy, he could wear belly bands with a menstrual pad to catch the urine...and we crated him at night whilst he was being retrained. i was just as upset because i like having my dogs sleep with me.

it meant taking him out every two to three hours no matter what....even getting up at 4 a.m. to take him out...mainly because that's when we wake up for work....but we did it on the weekends too when we could sleep in...

it took three months of no urinating....and then we let him back in the bed. it was worth it.

if that hadn't worked...i would have tried prion before i ever let my dog be on hormones...low dose or not....my doc won't give them to me for menopause so why would i allow them to be given to my dogs....


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## stajbs

Proin is what we used, and our girls were on it for several years, like I said earlier though we started with a doseage that was not even in line with their weight and it worked for a long time. It was perhaps 2 years until we needed to increase the dose to the proper one for their weight. I found proin to be most helpful. Good luck with this and do keep us posted.


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## BrownieM

magicre said:


> your vet didn't mention prion?
> 
> i'd rather give that than hormones.....
> 
> bubba did the same thing....he'd be sleeping and suddenly he'd pee....the vet
> thought he was incontinent with a weak sphincter....and that i should put him on prion because it would never clear up.
> 
> i couldn't bring myself to do this, so we worked on training his bladder...being a boy, he could wear belly bands with a menstrual pad to catch the urine...and we crated him at night whilst he was being retrained. i was just as upset because i like having my dogs sleep with me.
> 
> it meant taking him out every two to three hours no matter what....even getting up at 4 a.m. to take him out...mainly because that's when we wake up for work....but we did it on the weekends too when we could sleep in...
> 
> it took three months of no urinating....and then we let him back in the bed. it was worth it.
> 
> if that hadn't worked...i would have tried prion before i ever let my dog be on hormones...low dose or not....my doc won't give them to me for menopause so why would i allow them to be given to my dogs....


Both vets that I spoke to believe Proin can have serious side effects than DES. Proin is similar to a decongestant and every vet that I have spoken with said that estrogen is a much safer alternative - in my situation.

My vet has seen dogs react badly to Proin - irritability, high blood pressure, nervousness, and rapid heartbeat. (Not to say that this happens to ALL dogs) However, both vets I spoke to have not seen any ill effects from DES. Technically, mammary tumors may occur at very high doses, but the vet gave Millie a VERY low dose. The holistic and traditional vet both agreed that in my case, there is no need to give Proin. Estrogen is a better choice for us because the estrogen that she _would_ have gotten naturally, had she not been spayed, would have also tightened her sphincter. The pills are replacing what (unfortunately) we took away when she was spayed. She is only taking a total of 12 DES pills. Both vets said there are virtually no possible side effects at this dose. 

In our specific case, we are attempting to fix the problem itself, not just the symptoms. My vet has had success safely treating young female dogs that have been spayed early with one, low dose, round of DES.


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## BrownieM

I just did a quick google search and this website explains how DES and Proin might be prescribed in different situations. My vet believes that Millie's case will be estrogen responsive and possibly will not recur after this treatment. I will NOT have my baby on hormones long term. 

Compounding Pharmacy Portland, Oregon - Veterinary


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## stajbs

BrownieM,
Thanks for the info. Will be storing this away in my brain for future reference. My girls were already "up there" in years when they started on it, so this route makes sense to me. Good luck!!


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## BrownieM

:frown:

Millie leaked again. :frown:

I was sitting on the couch studying for this big test tomorrow and I noticed wetness under my hand. Millie was laying right next to me and, yep, it turns out she peed in her sleep. Poor baby. I hate that this happens to her. It hasn't happened in months.

Does anyone know if this could be exacerbated by taking Prednisone right now? She is on Pred. for the swelling in her ear with this bad infection.


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## DoglovingSenior

Does anyone know if this could be exacerbated by taking Prednisone right now? She is on Pred. for the swelling in her ear with this bad infection.[/QUOTE]

Definitely YES! I'm surprised that your vet didn't warn you of this given Millie's history. I hate steroids for the dogs or for myself. I had one who was prescribed Pred & I had to limit her water-or she would drink copious amounts & urinate any old time & she was/ had been totally housebroken before the pred. I worked & she had to hold it for 6-7 hours, and had never had an accident before.

I would let her sleep in her crate beside your bed at night. She will eventually ruin your mattress - that smell. . . . Poor Millie-hopefully this will all straighten out in time


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## BrownieM

DoglovingSenior said:


> Definitely YES! I'm surprised that your vet didn't warn you of this given Millie's history. I hate steroids for the dogs or for myself. I had one who was prescribed Pred & I had to limit her water-or she would drink copious amounts & urinate any old time & she was/ had been totally housebroken before the pred. I worked & she had to hold it for 6-7 hours, and had never had an accident before.
> 
> I would let her sleep in her crate beside your bed at night. She will eventually ruin your mattress - that smell. . . . Poor Millie-hopefully this will all straighten out in time


I'm just not going to give her the pred anymore. It was just to reduce the pain due to swelling until she goes back for a culture of her ear on Monday. I was never a huge fan of giving her the prenisone anyway..seemed overkill to me.

In your experience, does stopping the prednisone stop the accidents? Or will this be a permanent effect from the drug? She has only been on it since Wednesday night, if that matters. 

Oh gee, and there's no way she's sleeping in her crate at night. I just cannot do it. I literally sleep with my arms around her - I don't know what I would do without her in my bed. She has not had a sleeping leak incident since her single round of Estrogen that she took in October/November. The vet she was seeing prescribed this with the intent that it would strengthen the sphincter since she is such a young dog and that she should not need to take it again, maybe one round a year or so, at most. Anyway, it did seem to work until this.....

This was a different vet, so that is likely why he did not mention the effect of prednisone and urination.


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## KittyKat

BrownieM said:


> This was a different vet, so that is likely why he did not mention the effect of prednisone and urination.


I'd always try and see the same vet, since they know you and your dog.


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## chowder

It's definitely the prednisone! The first thing they tell people (and most dog owners) is that it will make them drink, eat, and pee a lot! Also might make them a bit hyper. I won't let them ever give it to Chelsy anymore because it makes her pee so much that she can't hold it at all.


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## magicre

BrownieM said:


> I'm just not going to give her the pred anymore. It was just to reduce the pain due to swelling until she goes back for a culture of her ear on Monday. I was never a huge fan of giving her the prenisone anyway..seemed overkill to me.
> 
> In your experience, does stopping the prednisone stop the accidents? Or will this be a permanent effect from the drug? She has only been on it since Wednesday night, if that matters.
> 
> Oh gee, and there's no way she's sleeping in her crate at night. I just cannot do it. I literally sleep with my arms around her - I don't know what I would do without her in my bed. She has not had a sleeping leak incident since her single round of Estrogen that she took in October/November. The vet she was seeing prescribed this with the intent that it would strengthen the sphincter since she is such a young dog and that she should not need to take it again, maybe one round a year or so, at most. Anyway, it did seem to work until this.....
> 
> This was a different vet, so that is likely why he did not mention the effect of prednisone and urination.


hormones and steroids are supposed to stop leakage, but in your case.....it appears to have the opposite result.

brownie, don't just stop giving the pred...wean her off...it's a steroid designed to fool the body into thinking everything is hunky dory. to just stop can cause a reaction....

is there another way to treat her ear? besides steroids?

bubba did this for a while but it was from his being neutered....and we treated it differently...we were able to use belly bands and we took him out every half hour....so his bladder was emptied...the doc wanted to put him on prion.....we chose not to do that....

i wish you well....but i'd wean off the pred and treat the ear infection differently. and i would definitely keep her ears up, to allow air in and not just whilst she is eating.....it might speed up the healing process...


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## BrownieM

KittyKat said:


> I'd always try and see the same vet, since they know you and your dog.


Not to have an attitude or anything, but, yeah, no sh*t, wouldn't that be nice. I am having trouble finding a good vet and recently left the other vet after they disgreed greatly with my desired vaccination protocol and essentially refused to follow it.


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## BrownieM

magicre said:


> hormones and steroids are supposed to stop leakage, but in your case.....it appears to have the opposite result.
> 
> brownie, don't just stop giving the pred...wean her off...it's a steroid designed to fool the body into thinking everything is hunky dory. to just stop can cause a reaction....
> 
> is there another way to treat her ear? besides steroids?
> 
> bubba did this for a while but it was from his being neutered....and we treated it differently...we were able to use belly bands and we took him out every half hour....so his bladder was emptied...the doc wanted to put him on prion.....we chose not to do that....
> 
> i wish you well....but i'd wean off the pred and treat the ear infection differently. and i would definitely keep her ears up, to allow air in and not just whilst she is eating.....it might speed up the healing process...


Okay, Macigre, I think maybe my post was not clear. And, like I said in the previous post, SORRY if I am crabby. I got 3 hours of sleep, took a big test this morning, and then got locked out of my car in the parking lot in 100 degree weather with no phone around.

Anywho..

The short estrogen treatment she took DID work. Just as it was supposed to. She took a very tiny dose for a week and has not had a leaking incident in nearly 10 months. 

This week: She took _2 days_ of Prednisone and leaked each day. I just called the vet and they said YES this is VERY normal, especially the first 2 days.

She is on prednisone because the medication the vet gave her for her ear infection unfortunately *worsened* it. Caused major inflammation, ulceration, etc. However, because it was an antibiotic ointment, she could not be cultured for several days after stopping it to determine exactly what specific bacteria was causing the original problem. So, she goes Monday for a culture. He wanted her to take Pred. in the meantime for the swelling and pain since she essentially has an untreated infection brewing in both of her ears.....

Is it really necessary to WEAN off pred. when it was taken TWICE?

Besides, the total course of treatment would have only been 1 week and never involved any weaning time period.

Anyway, it's too late, she hasn't taken it since Friday morning and I don't intend to give it to her again. I'm sure she will be just fine.


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## RaisingWolves

spookychick13 said:


> I do not, but we have a client whose dog does. Unfortunately they went the estrogen route. I wouldn't advise this unless it's to a point where you can't live with it.


We took our boxer girl to a major University Vet teaching hospital where they diagnosed her Cushings (pituitary microadenoma). My regular vet had her on estrogen for peeing during her sleep and the University doctor took her off it. They told me it is a dangerous drug. I never asked why, I just stopped giving it to her. My regular vet (ex-vet now) misdiagnosed her problem from the start. The estrogen did nothing for her Cushings.
Anyway, I wonder why this is not such a great drug? The vet that prescribed it to my boxer made it seem harmless. Of course he was a complete idiot. :biggrin:


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## BrownieM

RaisingWolves said:


> We took our boxer girl to a major University Vet teaching hospital where they diagnosed her Cushings (pituitary microadenoma). My regular vet had her on estrogen for peeing during her sleep and the University doctor took her off it. They told me it is a dangerous drug. I never asked why, I just stopped giving it to her. My regular vet (ex-vet now) misdiagnosed her problem from the start. The estrogen did nothing for her Cushings.
> Anyway, I wonder why this is not such a great drug? The vet that prescribed it to my boxer made it seem harmless. Of course he was a complete idiot. :biggrin:


Well, we took one round and it worked great for us.  Millie's incontinence last night, accd. to the vet, was entirely due to the Prednisone and is a common side effect. It does not mean that her spay incontinence has recurred.

I'm thinking my mistake was posting in this thread rather than starting a new thread. OOPS! Not trying to start another debate about estrogen treatment. I have done a deal of research on it and felt that one single round was far safer than proin. Regardless...that was done way back on October/November so it's a moot point LOL as she is a healthy girl not taking any medications for bladder issues.


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## RaisingWolves

BrownieM said:


> Well, we took one round and it worked great for us.


I wonder if it was a dangerous drug for my boxer because it was given to her for the wrong reason? It could have had something to do with her brain tumor. I didn't ask, I just stopped giving it. This was internal medicine @ Mizzou vet school. We take our dogs there for major health concerns.


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## DoglovingSenior

BrownieM said:


> In your experience, does stopping the prednisone stop the accidents? Or will this be a permanent effect from the drug? She has only been on it since Wednesday night, if that matters. d a year or so, at most. Anyway, it did seem to work until this.....
> 
> With my girl it was not permanent and she returned to her "housebroken status"


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## DoglovingSenior

Do you ever give her Cranberry extract- it sometimes helps to ward off bladder issues.


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## SerenityFL

BrownieM said:


> Not to have an attitude or anything, but, yeah, no sh*t, wouldn't that be nice. I am having trouble finding a good vet and recently left the other vet after they disgreed greatly with my desired vaccination protocol and essentially refused to follow it.


I really don't think she meant that in a snarky way, think she was trying to be helpful.

At the risk of getting myself there, do you have your dogs records or do you have the vet fax them over to the new vet before you go to the appointment?


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## BrownieM

SerenityFL said:


> I really don't think she meant that in a snarky way, think she was trying to be helpful.
> 
> At the risk of getting myself there, do you have your dogs records or do you have the vet fax them over to the new vet before you go to the appointment?


It really is a long complicated story....

The vet she just saw has her records because it's the same practice as her old vet. I personally know this vet well and he is a friend of the family.

This is Henrys vet since puppyhood and I wanted a second opinion on his lip condition because the holistic vet, at a differet practice, he had started seeing and who I *intended* to be his and millies new vet was not able to diagnose his pyoderma. And their record were faxed to that vet.

So, anyway, I brought henry to his traditional vet for a 2nd opinion. I brought Millie too because of her ear. The holistic vet had missed millies ear infection and I think this is how it got so bad.


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## magicre

BrownieM said:


> Well, we took one round and it worked great for us.  Millie's incontinence last night, accd. to the vet, was entirely due to the Prednisone and is a common side effect. It does not mean that her spay incontinence has recurred.
> 
> I'm thinking my mistake was posting in this thread rather than starting a new thread. OOPS! Not trying to start another debate about estrogen treatment. I have done a deal of research on it and felt that one single round was far safer than proin. Regardless...that was done way back on October/November so it's a moot point LOL as she is a healthy girl not taking any medications for bladder issues.


i think almost anything is safer than prion....and one round of estrogen will not a dog hurt.


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## magicre

BrownieM said:


> Okay, Macigre, I think maybe my post was not clear. And, like I said in the previous post, SORRY if I am crabby. I got 3 hours of sleep, took a big test this morning, and then got locked out of my car in the parking lot in 100 degree weather with no phone around.
> 
> Anywho..
> 
> The short estrogen treatment she took DID work. Just as it was supposed to. She took a very tiny dose for a week and has not had a leaking incident in nearly 10 months.
> 
> This week: She took _2 days_ of Prednisone and leaked each day. I just called the vet and they said YES this is VERY normal, especially the first 2 days.
> 
> She is on prednisone because the medication the vet gave her for her ear infection unfortunately *worsened* it. Caused major inflammation, ulceration, etc. However, because it was an antibiotic ointment, she could not be cultured for several days after stopping it to determine exactly what specific bacteria was causing the original problem. So, she goes Monday for a culture. He wanted her to take Pred. in the meantime for the swelling and pain since she essentially has an untreated infection brewing in both of her ears.....
> 
> Is it really necessary to WEAN off pred. when it was taken TWICE?
> 
> Besides, the total course of treatment would have only been 1 week and never involved any weaning time period.
> 
> Anyway, it's too late, she hasn't taken it since Friday morning and I don't intend to give it to her again. I'm sure she will be just fine.


ok. i probably read too fast...and it's okay to be crabby...especially locked out of your car with no keys. that sucks after an exam.

i understood about the estrogen...

ok now i understand the prednisone and no you don't have to wean from two doses....got it.

ok. now i understand. carry on. 

i hope your day is going better....and i understand frustration....believe me.

we are dealing with an issue right now.....and it's driving all of us batcrazy....

sorry you had to explain it more than once....i guess i was having a foggy moment.


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## BrownieM

magicre said:


> ok. i probably read too fast...and it's okay to be crabby...especially locked out of your car with no keys. that sucks after an exam.
> 
> i understood about the estrogen...
> 
> ok now i understand the prednisone and no you don't have to wean from two doses....got it.
> 
> ok. now i understand. carry on.
> 
> i hope your day is going better....and i understand frustration....believe me.
> 
> we are dealing with an issue right now.....and it's driving all of us batcrazy....
> 
> sorry you had to explain it more than once....i guess i was having a foggy moment.


No...I apologize for being so crabby! I was a total disaster yesterday - I don't do well when I don't get sleep! I turn into a beast LOL.


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## magicre

BrownieM said:


> No...I apologize for being so crabby! I was a total disaster yesterday - I don't do well when I don't get sleep! I turn into a beast LOL.


i accept your apology on the condition that you allow yourself to be crabby....

believe me, i've seen crabby and you're about the most well mannered crabby i've seen.


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