# Incontinence....already?



## minnieme (Jul 6, 2011)

Okay so tonight has been a weird night. I'm not sure if anyone will be able to provide an answer, but regardless, I'm curious what everyone thinks.

So I was lounging on the couch today, all sick and whatnot, and Minnie was lying on her bed next to me -- sphinx style. I look over at her...and she's PEEING. While she's lying down. I quickly took her out; she didn't go. She came in and we discovered that there were two more puddles she had made on her way back in (we would have seen them before). Minnie has been perfectly house trained since we got her so naturally I assumed this was an illness.

Fortunately we were able to get in at the vet tonight -- not our normal one, but one who had later hours. I just thought if it were a UTI or bladder infection, I wouldn't want to wait over the weekend -- I know how much they suck! 

Anyway, we weren't able to bring in a urine sample so there wasn't much they could do (although they offered ultrasounds, xrays, etc). They ran a blood panel and that looked fine. They also did a vaginal swab and that turned out alright too. So tomorrow morning I am going to drop off a urine sample....and if that's all fine, my aunt (the vet who lives about 45 mins from us) thinks it's just incontinence. I know spay incontinence can happen at any age...but Minnie is barely 2. She got spayed at about 16 months old and had a litter of puppies when she was under 1 year old (sooo sad. my poor girl). 

Of course, at the vet's office, my mind ran through every thing that has changed recently -- particularly nutritionally since this forum has given me some heightened awareness. In the past 24 hrs, we gave Minnie some Orijen as training treats. Otherwise she is still on the EVO red meat formula which causes her to drink much more than while on raw. Does anyone know of a correlation between kibble and incontinence? Jeeze, I want to get her back on raw so bad, but she's still a bit underweight.

My aunt said if the urinalysis checks out okay tomorrow she could get us Phenylpropanolamine -- the most common drug for incontinence -- at cost. But of course I don't want to put her on anything if it's just a sporadic thing or a kibble thing! She has never had any issues whatsoever before this...and despite being sick today, I did manage to let her out multiple times throughout the day. Normal BMs. Normal pees...until tonight. What the ....???

Thoughts?


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## DaneMama (Jun 27, 2008)

Sounds to me like she might have a UTI, which can cause incontinence. Until you have the urine checked, I wouldn't jump to conclusions or get freaked out.


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## Donna Little (May 31, 2011)

My Min Pin Briana, the one that just turned 11, will occasionally pee in her sleep. I have no idea why and it's so seldom that I don't feel like I can even call it incontinence. She's probably done it 8 to 10 times in her life. But it'll be while she's dead asleep so I've wondered if she's dreaming she's going and just pees. 
I think sometimes they like to keep us guessing... I hope you get some answers or if not I hope that it won't happen again. Was Minnie sleeping or just laying down?


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## minnieme (Jul 6, 2011)

Donna Little said:


> Was Minnie sleeping or just laying down?


She definitely wasn't in a deep sleep....maybe dozing....or relaxing on her bed, but definitely not sleeping. Prior to it she had been prancing around the house like her normal, goofy self. Then I look over and ...CRAP, SHE'S PEEING!


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## stajbs (Jun 5, 2010)

Have had 4 females who were spayed and developed incontinence. I am hoping and guessing UTI. In my experience when it's the incontinence, especially in the beginning, they leaked dribbles of urine at a time, it was barely noticeable. My tip off was excessively cleaning themselves and the other dogs sniffing them a whole heck of a lot more than they normally did. But then too, all my guys were rescues and they were always spayed between 6 months and one year, usually with shelters you had to spay them in X amount of days and you got some money back. Plus this is before I learned here that it is better to wait till they are physcially mature. Hoping you've got a UTI situation. Oh, and it's a blast to get a urine specimen from a female, at least mine were. Always wondered what the neighbors thought if they say me out there trying to collect the sample.


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## minnieme (Jul 6, 2011)

stajbs said:


> Oh, and it's a blast to get a urine specimen from a female, at least mine were. Always wondered what the neighbors thought if they say me out there trying to collect the sample.


LOL...yeah....and we only have a front yard so it'll be in wide view of our neighbors. Carl (boyfriend) holding the leash and me holding the ladle! Wish me luck - hahaha! 

I am pretty conflicted about it....I feel like if it were truly incontinence, then when I shouted "Minnie!" in total shock, she wouldn't have been able to stop since her sphincter would be too weak. Also, I've heard of most incontinence cases being in their sleep...but she definitely was not. She had just been roaming the house and decided to lie down -- she really doesn't sleep at all in her sphinx style down. She might have been relaxed, but she was definitely awake. On the other hand, I find it totally bizarre that she went on her bed. She is very good at telling me when she needs to go out...and even when she has had accidents in the house (poo accidents... not pee), she has always done it on the linoleum by the door...like she's so trying to get outside, but no one was there to let her out.

A mystery indeed! We'll see what the vet says today when they run a sample that I can hopefully get!


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## kady05 (Jul 29, 2011)

Piper's incontinence started.. maybe 5-6 months ago? I can't remember. But she's not even 2 yet (turns 2 in November). She was spayed at 5 1/2 months, before her first heat.

Hers started with a giant puddle underneath her when she was sleeping. I thought UTI at first too, but the urinalysis found nothing. Hers is still very sporadic (thankfully).. she'll go a month or more with no accidents, then out of the blue, 3 days in a row of accidents. ALWAYS happens at night when she's downstairs too, never during the day, and never overnight in her crate either. I've learned that if she randomly wakes up and starts licking at herself, that she's probably about to have an accident, so try to run her outside before it happens. It's a very odd ailment, that's for sure. 

We tried Proin on her and OMG it was awful.. it was like I poisoned her. So after one dose of that, I returned it and she hasn't been on anything since. I was hoping the transition to raw might help, but it hasn't :/

Oh - when Piper's having an "episode", she'll drip everywhere, even after I take her outside to potty.


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## chowder (Sep 7, 2008)

Chelsy has had a couple of UTI's in the last few years and it sounds similar. I will think that she is starting to become incontinent because she's getting old, and then once we clear up the UTI she doesn't have any more accidents and can even last all night long. She will leave various puddles throughout the house, or go a bit in her sleep. 

She gets the UTI now because she doesn't empty herself completely when she goes outside. I have to make sure I let her stay out long enough (even in the rain !!) and make her go several times while we're out there to be sure she's good and empty before I let her back in again. 

I use a plate to catch the pee since she is so short. They don't need very much for a sample. And I have a supply of old baby food jars that I run thru the dishwasher before I take it in with a sample. That way I know it's a fairly clean sample. I'm getting to be an old pro at this doggie pee thing!


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## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

chowder said:


> She gets the UTI now because she doesn't empty herself completely when she goes outside. I have to make sure I let her stay out long enough (even in the rain !!) and make her go several times while we're out there to be sure she's good and empty before I let her back in again.


Have you tried manually emptying her bladder? we had a dachshund for a short time with spinal damage - she would pee, and then I would manually do it the rest of the way to make sure her bladder was empty. I was nervous about doing it, but it was really easy.


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## chowder (Sep 7, 2008)

xellil said:


> Have you tried manually emptying her bladder? we had a dachshund for a short time with spinal damage - she would pee, and then I would manually do it the rest of the way to make sure her bladder was empty. I was nervous about doing it, but it was really easy.


I guess I should really try to start doing that. Sometimes when I walk her she'll go 5-6 times on one walk and I wonder how can one little dog hold so much! I know it's just because she's not emptying herself completely each time. I REALLY don't want her to get another UTI again. It makes her so sick each time she gets one. thanks for the suggestion!


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

you've been sick....is it possible she didn't go out as often as she normally would?

you stated that she drinks a lot of water, which makes sense now that she's back on EVO...but is she drinking excessive amounts?

if so, then testing her for diabetes would be something to consider...that and definitely getting a urine sample in....although it might pay to have them do a cystoscopy so they can get a sterile sample...

prion, which is what your aunt is going to be able to get you is a banned substance for humans, but acceptable apparently for dogs.

when my bubba did the very same thing...he'd be laying on my husband dead out and peeing.....

.....we were able to use belly bands, because he's a boy with a penis....

but we started taking him out every half hour to retrain hopefully retrain his bladder and it went away.....i didn't want to put him on prion....


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## minnieme (Jul 6, 2011)

well turned out to be a uti....so she is on 2 weeks worth of meds. thanks for the support, everyone!!!


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## kady05 (Jul 29, 2011)

minnieme said:


> well turned out to be a uti....so she is on 2 weeks worth of meds. thanks for the support, everyone!!!


Be happy that's what it is! I was so hoping that's what Piper's was, no dice for me though


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## cprcheetah (Jul 14, 2010)

I am glad to hear it wasn't incontinence. UTI's are a pain in the butt, been there done that lots with Shellie, however usually with antibiotics they go away


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## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

What causes UTI in a dog? I don't think I've ever had a dog with a UTI. But then, I 've only had two females so maybe that has something to do with it.


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## stajbs (Jun 5, 2010)

Ahhh, thought it was a UTI. My latest urine catcher is those plastic, flat, 2 part deli-like containers that lunch meats or cheese are in. It's low, not real wide, and I just transfer it into a glass jar and off to the vet we go. lol Should be okay in a few weeks and you should see improvement pretty quickly with antibiotics. Glad you won't have to go the Proin route. 

Have two questions though and this thread sort of reminded me of them:
1. Has anyone tried the holistic products available for incontinence, and if so what were the results?
2. There are also supplements for UTI issues and keeping the ph of urine just where it needs to be etc. I think Solid Gold makes something with cranberry powder, and I can't remember the other ingredients, just wondering in case this type of product might help those whose d ogs have frequent UTI's


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## minnieme (Jul 6, 2011)

As far as causes for UTIs, I've heard that dirty water, dirtiness down yonder, or not letting them get outside enough can all be contributing factors. Minnie doesn't have to contend with any of those though... so I'm not sure what exactly was the root cause. It's similar to humans, I think -- all those things CAN cause it, but aren't a necessity for bacteria to multiply. Natalie can probably clarify this further though.

And stajbs, I have heard of cranberry powder for dogs with frequent UTIs... aside from Solid Gold. I'm pretty sure you could buy it anywhere and just add it to a dog's food. I've also heard of people giving their dogs citrus juices...although that seems pretty acidic to me, so I'm not sure I'd be comfortable with that. 

As far as holistic remedies for incontinence, one of our dogs was incontinent in her old age...and we tried every holistic or natural "remedy" possible...but sadly none of them worked. Apple cider vinegar was talked up a lot, but only the prescribed drugs worked.


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## chowder (Sep 7, 2008)

Chelsy gets UTI's because 1) she doesn't fully 'go' when I take her out so she ends up never completely emptying her bladder and 2) she tends to fall over and sit down while she's going so she's always messy and dirty down there. Now I make sure I help hold her up while she's going, take her out a lot more often, and sort of 'help' her empty herself more completely. I also have baby wipes and I clean her up when she comes back inside every time. 

It's a lot of work having an old girl!


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## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

When I had the dog with the spinal problems, I had a sling I would put right in front of her rear legs so she wouldn't sit while she peed. I really had no clue - the rescue people taught me all that. I would have had no idea what to do. I didn't know I might be avoiding UTIs, I though it was just so she wouldn't get pee all over herself.

So I guess mainly it's a location thing on the female that the males don't have. Thanks - I ask because even though Snorkels isn't having those problems yet, I'd like to recognize if something happens to change that.


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## chowder (Sep 7, 2008)

xellil said:


> When I had the dog with the spinal problems, I had a sling I would put right in front of her rear legs so she wouldn't sit while she peed. I really had no clue - the rescue people taught me all that. I would have had no idea what to do. I didn't know I might be avoiding UTIs, I though it was just so she wouldn't get pee all over herself.
> 
> So I guess mainly it's a location thing on the female that the males don't have. Thanks - I ask because even though Snorkels isn't having those problems yet, I'd like to recognize if something happens to change that.


Yeah, I'll have to get a little sling for Chelsy to help hold her up better when she squats. The vet said that the dirt and stuff will sort of back up inside of them when they sit down and pee and that's one of her problems. The wheel chair helped her a lot but she's actually gotten better on the medication and isnt' bad enough for the wheelchair now. She still tends to fall over while peeing though so she just needs a little extra 'boost' then. I'll bet I can look at slings online and just copy a pattern. It has to be easier then me bending over trying to hold up a Lhasa that's only 3 inches off the ground!


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## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

Man, that would kill my back. My husband squats down to clean her eyes and I'm thinking if that were me she'd sure be on a table because that would pretty much do me in. The joys of getting old.

I'm really glad to hear she's not having to use her wheelchair, though - glad the medicine is doing good.


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## cprcheetah (Jul 14, 2010)

stajbs said:


> Ahhh, thought it was a UTI. My latest urine catcher is those plastic, flat, 2 part deli-like containers that lunch meats or cheese are in. It's low, not real wide, and I just transfer it into a glass jar and off to the vet we go. lol Should be okay in a few weeks and you should see improvement pretty quickly with antibiotics. Glad you won't have to go the Proin route.
> 
> Have two questions though and this thread sort of reminded me of them:
> 1. Has anyone tried the holistic products available for incontinence, and if so what were the results?
> 2. There are also supplements for UTI issues and keeping the ph of urine just where it needs to be etc. I think Solid Gold makes something with cranberry powder, and I can't remember the other ingredients, just wondering in case this type of product might help those whose d ogs have frequent UTI's


My dad tried the Leaks No More with my standard poodle Cassie and it really didn't help all that much so we had to use the drugs. I use basic Cranberry Capsules with Shellie and it really helps, however the biggest help for Shellie (who's had 6 UTI's in her short 3 years) was switching her to raw, adding daily probiotics and the cranberry capsules. She hasn't had a UTI in over a year and that's because the little booger decided to 'hold' her urine all weekend because she was on strike wanting to pee at doggie daycare....yeah....um....she has issues.


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