# Probiotics



## marklaker

Do any of you supplement with probiotics? If so, what brands.

Thanks!

Mark


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## naturalfeddogs

Any reason you feel you need them?


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## marklaker

Still feeling out community norms. Seems a fair number of raw feeders do.


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## OtherGuy

I don't. 

Bill


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## naturalfeddogs

I don't either. A raw fed dog generally doesn't need them, since the natural diet supports the good bacteria in the gut.


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## marklaker

Got it, thanks! What about fish oil? Or do you provide enough fish in the diet to cover down on Omega 3?


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## naturalfeddogs

If you feed regular amounts of an oily type, wild caught fish or all grass fed only red meats, you will be getting enough omega 3's. Otherwise, a quality fish or krill oil. I'm looking into switching mine to Nordic Naturals.


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## OldGnarlHead

Side note: Green tripe is said to have a lot of natural probiotics in it that are beneficial. I don't know the validity of this, but if you ever feel like you need them that is an option.


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## marklaker

From what I've read, green tripe is a treasure trove of goodness for dogs, including a probiotic effect so I ordered some online from a pet food provider last week. On another note, I believe I'm finally getting the hang of this raw feeding. With the exception of this morning, the pup's stools have been good for about ten days running, which is a first for him. This morning he had an explosion, but I'm guessing it may be the result of his final dosage of hookworm medication. At least, I'm hoping so.


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## naturalfeddogs

What did he eat last?


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## marklaker

Beef and chicken chunks, along with chicken liver, a chicken wing, and a tablespoon of pumpkin.


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## naturalfeddogs

Drop the pumpkin. It's not needed, and it can cause runny poops. That combined with the liver and very little bone may have caused it. How big is your dog, by the way?


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## OldGnarlHead

Yup, pumpkin would definitely give my dog the runs. We once fed her a tiny slice of carrot and she got diarrhea. 

I know for my sized dog (36 lbs), getting ~10% bone every day, a whole chicken wing is sometimes too much bone, which may also cause diarrhea, unfortunately. 

For the moment I have my money on the hookworm meds and the pumpkin.


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## marklaker

Dog is about 35-38 lb pup. The chicken wing was just the most recent meal, he had necks and a thigh in prior meals, his monthly bone% at 13. While I agree pumpkin isn't needed, my dogs love it, and it's endorsed by vets and raw feeders, including Lew Olson, as a therapeutic for diarrhea. I've been feeding him pumpkin for a few weeks and it's never resulted in diarrhea. Just the opposite, in fact. I'm convinced it was the medication, which has been identified as a presenting the possibility. That said, his stool this afternoon was much improved so I'm a happy camper.


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## marklaker

As an addendum to my post above, I feed pumpkin mostly as a crowd pleaser with the potential for therapeutic value. I do the same for Yogurt with live cultures, which has a probiotic effect. I only use a tablespoon or so every other meal. Cottage cheese is yet another additive. I consider them toppers with potential value that make my dogs happy campers.


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## naturalfeddogs

Sometimes, less is more. You will find that a majority of the raw feeders here feed prey model strictly, with no other added ingredients. Raw fed correctly doesn't need them.

If yogurt works as a probiotic, why are you asking about brands to use?


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## OldGnarlHead

I strive for a 'species appropriate' raw diet. I don't even give Cricket coconut oil anymore, she goes absolutely psycho bonkers crazy over the stuff, and its properties are lauded. We've run into a lot fewer problems that way. Just my experience. However, you know your dogs better than anyone.


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## marklaker

I asked because that's how I gather information upon which to make decisions. I gather data, evaluate, and act. Then I monitor the results, reevaluate, and either adjust or stay the course.


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## naturalfeddogs

Chances are, you don't need a probiotic. Raw fed dogs guts are well supported, compared to kibble fed. I can tell you no one here feeds them. But like was mentioned earlier, tripe does have enzymes that are good for supporting the gut. But feeding a commercial brand, I don't know anyone who does.

If you are giving them just because you "think" you need too, you can actually cause the problems you are trying to prevent. If you are having problems with dieareha, first find out why. Overfeeding? Too many organ? Not enough bone? Look for the cause, and fix it. If it's something else then probiotics may be of use. But it's unlikely in most raw feeding dogs..


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## marklaker

As always, I appreciate your input. No, I'm not giving it out of necessity, but rather as a treat that at best may be beneficial, and at worst benign. One tablespoon every other day and he loves it. I realize this forum is comprised of raw feeders who are faithful to to the prey model diet and I respect this, but I'm still exploring and experimenting....carefully, I might add. I may eventually adopt a strict regimen myself, but in the meantime I appreciate your patience and tolerance, if only grudgingly. :biggrin:

Insofar as the diarrhea is concerned, I'm still convinced it was the hookworm medication, since it cleared the following day. I closely track his meals, percentages, and stools. When I note any issues with the stools, I look back to the meals for clues and adjust accordingly. In the last 15-17 days he's had only two instances of bad stools.....the aforementioned, and two stools of soup yesterday I'm still on the fence about. I received a shipment of goodies from an online meat provider: hare, duck, beef pancreas and spleen, lamb tongue, and green tripe. I'm fast discovering I have to gradually introduce my pup to the new fare, but sometimes my zeal gets the best of me. Yesterday I introduced him to the tripe and spleen and I may have over done it. Thankfully, his stool was fine this morning.


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## naturalfeddogs

Tripe will be the probiotic you can feed. I think you will get the results you want by giving that. And it doesn't have to be daily. A few times a week would probably be fine.


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## OtherGuy

marklaker said:


> From what I've read, green tripe is a treasure trove of goodness for dogs, including a probiotic effect so I ordered some online from a pet food provider last week. On another note, I believe I'm finally getting the hang of this raw feeding. With the exception of this morning, the pup's stools have been good for about ten days running, which is a first for him. This morning he had an explosion, but I'm guessing it may be the result of his final dosage of hookworm medication. At least, I'm hoping so.


Personally, while I have (and will) feed green tripe, I think it is over-hyped. I've also seen the costs soar to the point where I've cut way back on ordering. It is a great inexpensive cut, but when prices go "boutique" I question the value.

One note is green tripe is about 1:1 on Calcium and Phosphorus, so should almost be excluded from counting in the 80/10/10 ratios as "meat." The ideal Calcium to Phosphorus ratio is 1.2:1. Going bone-heavy plus serving green tripe as a main source of "meat" could throw off ratios if fed on on a long term basis. Not a "big deal," just mentioning it as a "special case" item when considering balancing minerals.

Bill


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## naturalfeddogs

I also think tripe has its place, but I'm not sure it's the super food some make it out to be. As a probiotic food, I think it can have benefits. I personally haven't ever fed it myself, but have considered it as occasional feeding. I'm still researching more on it, since I see lots of opinions on it.


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## OldGnarlHead

We have to introduce new things to our dog SUPER slowly(sometimes a gram increase a day) or we get cannon butt. We have green tripe in a few of her meals now, but we haven't gotten to them yet. We'll see how things go. She loves dehydrated green tripe sticks and they don't seem to impact her system, so that's good.


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## Meff

Right now I have them on "Tummy Works," that I buy from Chewy. As to the "why"--I knew we people needed probiotics for something or other until a doctor I'm going to suggested me read this book that really opened my eyes to probiotics. It's UNBELIEVABLE what is behind the whole probiotic field!!
Bottom line: if your dog has *ever* been on antibiotics, or suffers from any or all obscure issues from skin, to ears, to tummies, even to "autism-like" behavior, Probiotics have been ***PROVEN*** to help!! The problem is, though, there are several million species and strains that have been isolated. Not all probiotics are good for all situations, and from what I'm reading now, some bacteria compete with others, rendering them ineffective (or not as effective as they could be.)


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## Meff

Tripe is not a probiotic. Tripe is a "protein source" (the inner lining of a cow's stomach.) Probiotics are different strains of Bacteria: Lactobacillus, Bifidophilus, Streptococcus, and others.


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## naturalfeddogs

No tripe isn't a probiotic, but it can help the digestive system with its digestive enzymes enough that if you feel you need a probiotic it could work instead of a supplement.


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