# How to convince someone?



## meggels (May 30, 2010)

So, my mom and step dad have their three dogs. A 6 year old (overweight) Cavalier. a 5.5 year old Boxer (our boy Cooper who went with my mom and into the marriage lol), and their newest addition, the 5 month old lab/shar pei mix Finny. 

I really want my mom to consider raw. I think with Mia's obesity (that weight loss kibble hasn't helped), it would help to get the carbs out of her diet. 

Finny came to them from the adoption center with giardia. Cooper the boxer has since gotten it. But the thing is, they are now on round 3 of de-worming them because the tests keep coming back positive.

My friend said they should be put on raw, that their immune system is probably compromised because of the kibble. They eat "premium" foods, they've been on Natural Balance (now), Premium Edge, Taste of the Wild...but I think raw would be great for all three dogs based on various issues they've had. 

My mom is against raw (as in, just doesn't want to do it, but she's fed Murph when he stays at their house). 

I think she might see the light if I gave her some good reading info. Anyone have some good links I could send her?


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## DaViking (Sep 27, 2011)

meggels said:


> My friend said they should be put on raw, that their immune system is probably compromised because of the kibble. They eat "premium" foods


That is just as ignorant blanket statement as "dogs shouldn't eat raw because they will get sick from uncooked chicken". You can turn it around and say a raw diet without any added antioxidants might leave a dog vulnerable to free radicals to do havoc. Good kibble adds extra natural micro nutrients to fight free radicals the body produces itself, are exposed to in an industrial world and from the elements. The body can never produce/boost the immune system enough to fend of all environmental impact. Raw feeders should add antioxidants to the diet. At least do some wild berries or concentrate.


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## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

Raw feeders DO add antioxidants.

Oily fish have natural antioxidants. Raw bones provide natural antioxidants. 

It is not necessary to feed a dog berries.


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## DaViking (Sep 27, 2011)

xellil said:


> Raw feeders DO add antioxidants.
> 
> Oily fish have natural antioxidants. Raw bones provide natural antioxidants.
> 
> It is not necessary to feed a dog berries.


The antioxidants they derive from that is meager, close to non existent. You would have to overfeed those ingredients grossly to have the same effects you would get from the plant world. Put a slurry together consisting of lentils and blueberries and you should be good to go.


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## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

I disagree. But then, we don't agree on much.

Some people have been feeding their dogs raw for many years without including berries. 

I don't think they hurt. But they are not necessary.


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## naturalfeddogs (Jan 6, 2011)

xellil said:


> I disagree. But then, we don't agree on much.
> 
> Some people have been feeding their dogs raw for many years without including berries.
> 
> I don't think they hurt. But they are not necessary.


Agreed. I think they get much less of anything from plant matter. Everything a dog, a carnivore needs, comes from raw meat, bones and organs. Thats why they are made by nature the way they are.:thumb:


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## meggels (May 30, 2010)

DaViking said:


> That is just as ignorant blanket statement as "dogs shouldn't eat raw because they will get sick from uncooked chicken". You can turn it around and say a raw diet without any added antioxidants might leave a dog vulnerable to free radicals to do havoc. Good kibble adds extra natural micro nutrients to fight free radicals the body produces itself, are exposed to in an industrial world and from the elements. The body can never produce/boost the immune system enough to fend of all environmental impact. Raw feeders should add antioxidants to the diet. At least do some wild berries or concentrate.


I tend to agree with this person...who also says that it compromises the immune system because the dog has to work much harder to digest and utilize kibble because of the carbs. His research and experience shows that dogs can digest 10% carbs in their food, and we all know most kibbles are much more than that...

So if the body is taxing itself by trying to digest the inappropriate ingredients...how would that not compromise the immune system?


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## DaViking (Sep 27, 2011)

naturalfeddogs said:


> Agreed. I think they get much less of anything from plant matter. Everything a dog, a carnivore needs, comes from raw meat, bones and organs. Thats why they are made by nature the way they are.:thumb:


Dogs with different metabolic abilities than strict carnivores are well suited to pick up and convert nutrients from plant matter. They are made from mother nature that way. That's one of the success factors of the Canis lupus familiaris.
Our dogs are designed and bred by humans for humans. I don't want a wolf with a wolf's diet. If I magically could leapfrog a few more hundreds of generations they would be even more adapted to eating a balanced meat, fat and carbohydrate diet. Heck, if we really put in the hours we can probably get it well suited to digest corn too, GMO free that is


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

DaViking said:


> The antioxidants they derive from that is meager, close to non existent. You would have to overfeed those ingredients grossly to have the same effects you would get from the plant world. Put a slurry together consisting of lentils and blueberries and you should be good to go.


so from what meggels said, all you got from it was premium foods?

come on......let's stick to the subject at hand. you know what she meant. 

and what she wants is a means to convince her mom to go raw.

you can talk about anti oxidants later. and whether or not it's an ignorant statement. jeez.


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

meg, i'm not so sure people are 'convinced' other than by what they see. my sister in law was so grossed out by raw, she'd leave my house when i pulled out the food.

so you know i would feed them early just so i could gross her out LOL. we do love each other, but i am mean that way.

after a while, though, she saw just how healthy and shiny and beautiful my dogs were....and started asking questions.

that's when she started feeding raw and now wouldn't go back....

we have links on this site that talk about why raw is so healthy for animals.....i think it's a sticky in the raw section.

in my sig, there is a link to orijen's white paper. back in 1998, they advocated a carnivore's diet. print that out.


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## meggels (May 30, 2010)

I think one thing against me is that Murph still has allergy issues...so she might be like "oh that's really workin for ya, huh?" lol.


Anyways, I'm fairly certain I'm switching Abbie in the next month or so....thinking about documenting it journal style to really figure out what (if any) changes take place, being that Abbie is so healthy to begin with. Would be interesting.


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## meggels (May 30, 2010)

Also, forgot about the white paper, great idea  And I'll check out the sticky.


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## DaViking (Sep 27, 2011)

meggels said:


> I tend to agree with this person...who also says that it compromises the immune system because the dog has to work much harder to digest and utilize kibble because of the carbs. His research and experience shows that dogs can digest 10% carbs in their food, and we all know most kibbles are much more than that...
> 
> So if the body is taxing itself by trying to digest the inappropriate ingredients...how would that not compromise the immune system?


He is oversimplifying if that's verbatim. I'd like to se his research paper on the 10%? Healthy dogs have no issues with carb levels up to 40% to 50%. Personally I am closer to him since I prefer carbs to be in the 15% to 25% range. That's what my experience tells me is optimal, but hey, I have no scientific studies to back that up with. But I too are oversimplifying things because it all depends on the carb source used.

It doesn't compromise the immune system. Everything puts a strain on the organism being the body, that's different from compromising.
A compromised immune system is the result of
1) Genetics
2) Genetics
3) Genetics
4) Environment
5) Nutrition


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## DaViking (Sep 27, 2011)

magicre said:


> so from what meggels said, all you got from it was premium foods?
> 
> come on......let's stick to the subject at hand. you know what she meant.
> 
> ...


Nope, she mentioned brands.


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

meggels said:


> I think one thing against me is that Murph still has allergy issues...so she might be like "oh that's really workin for ya, huh?" lol.
> 
> 
> Anyways, I'm fairly certain I'm switching Abbie in the next month or so....thinking about documenting it journal style to really figure out what (if any) changes take place, being that Abbie is so healthy to begin with. Would be interesting.


ya know, meg....that raw is not a miracle worker...but imagine the allergies murph had before raw feeding?

and.....i eat very healthy. doesn't stop the environmental allergies...if she brings that up, well, there are some things in nature we cannot cure. this is why zyrtec was created LOL or other herbals...

i'm going to start wiping bubba's eyes with cool chamomille tea and see if that doesn't do something. 

that and puting acv on malia's legs so she stops trying to eat through them. 

it's only in the summer.....and many people and dogs have allergies. raw isn't going to cure that.

but it does make teeth white, coats brilliant, health glowing, etc....


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## meggels (May 30, 2010)

Yup! And I can tell you one thing, he sure as heck hasn't been back to the vet for an ear infection since being on it! I about fainted when the vet looked in his ears friday and said "great, they look perfect". 

His coat has gotten very soft and shiney in the past few months


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

meggels said:


> Yup! And I can tell you one thing, he sure as heck hasn't been back to the vet for an ear infection since being on it! I about fainted when the vet looked in his ears friday and said "great, they look perfect".
> 
> His coat has gotten very soft and shiney in the past few months


bubba still gets gunky ears.....brown stuff that doesn't smell. we just clean them and maintain. there is no more odour or redness...he has clear eye boogers now and i am thinking it's environmental allergies.....

nothing we can do about that, other than supportive care.


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## bett (Mar 15, 2012)

some folks just don't want to do raw. it's not as simple as giving a bowl of chicken necks (and i live with a butcher) and i give supplements for each of my dogs needs. and i don't think if someone has a mindset that they are against raw, let them find a decent kibble.


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## Makovach (Jan 24, 2012)

bett said:


> some folks just don't want to do raw. it's not as simple as giving a bowl of chicken necks (and i live with a butcher) and i give supplements for each of my dogs needs. and i don't think if someone has a mindset that they are against raw, let them find a decent kibble.


This statement it ture. 

But I know how you feel meggels. I feed my dogs PMR. There are bunches of people who are against it and slander me for doing it and keep talking about how bad it is and how much money and work it must take. But in the end, after a few months, many of them started asking me about it and started to want to learn about it all on their own. They just saw how much I talked about how great my dogs were doing and how much they have changed, how Annie's tumors are going away. They went from slander to questioning, to wanting to feed PMR them selves. I don't think it is something you can convince some one of. But you can keep talking about the positive changes and how the negatives have gone away and how much better your dogs are doing. I kept pictures and journals weekly of the dogs, how they have changed how they have reacted and all of that. Through that, I will never feed kibble or cereal based feed to ANY animal. My rats are on a raw diet (Species appropriate of course) and when I raise chickens ducks rabbits and hogs, they will be too. I really think it is something that will come with time or wont come at all. It is okay to talk about it, but I wouldn't push it because you could get an adverse reaction of what you are shooting for. Maybe let her try a bit of raw and see how much her dogs like it?


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## meggels (May 30, 2010)

bett said:


> some folks just don't want to do raw. it's not as simple as giving a bowl of chicken necks (and i live with a butcher) and i give supplements for each of my dogs needs. and i don't think if someone has a mindset that they are against raw, let them find a decent kibble.


But what if it simply isn't working for the dog? Kibble, that is.


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## July11 (Jul 7, 2011)

Maybe you could encourage her to tip toe in through the back door. Suggest a cooked topper for 25% of the kibble, then, eventually home cooked. Once she experiences the improvements in her dogs from that forward step, she will be asking you about raw feeding.


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## bridget246 (Oct 26, 2011)

bett said:


> some folks just don't want to do raw. it's not as simple as giving a bowl of chicken necks (and i live with a butcher) and i give supplements for each of my dogs needs. and i don't think if someone has a mindset that they are against raw, let them find a decent kibble.


If that was true I wouldn't have been feeding raw to began with. People kept making suggestions to me to go towards raw. Offering me all the help and advice I could ask for. If they didn't kept trying I would have never have went for it. 



meggels said:


> But what if it simply isn't working for the dog? Kibble, that is.


My problem wasn't the kibble. I think it was me. Feeding kibble kind did all the work for me. If it work then it worked. Feeding raw has caused me to be more observant than ever when it comes to checking my dogs food, stool, medications, everything that went into her system I questioned. So raw might not have been my miracle but it did force to work a little harder at helping my dog.


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## BearMurphy (Feb 29, 2012)

i think it's worth it to try to get someone close to you, like your own mom, into feeding raw if you can help her do it. especially since she's willing to feed Murph that way when she watches him. it's really hard not to try since you've seen how much it has helped your own dog and you want the best for her's too. it does put responsibility on you to make sure it goes well though because you would be convincing her to switch so she might blame you if they go through a period of digestive upset. in the past, i have just offered info to people when they asked me how it works and told them to let me know when they are ready to switch. that way they are motivated to see it through because it's something they want for their own dog. so far no takers though....


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## 7766 (Sep 20, 2011)

I am interested in learning about raw, but really don't plan on switching to it. I agree with what Bett said. I could put premade bowl of raw down for a dog to eat but I could never prepare it myself. I can't even eat chicken wings, it grosses me out, there is no way I could do some of the stuff I read about. 

I had two healthy dogs who never went to the vet expect once for hip dyslplasia which has nothing to do with kibble. They were fed Pedigree for years. Had that never happened I still would be feeding Pedigree. The need to find a kibble with high glucosimine lead me to this board. Now I feed a better kibble. 

I think it would have been very hard to talk someone like me into going raw or even doubling what I pay for kibble when my dogs don't have allergies, or digestive issues on crap food. 

I think I am like a lot of dog owners out there, the idea of PMR sounds great, but the reality is a lot more than my stomach can handle. I know you asked for ways to help convince someone, but I feel this is something a person needs to come to on their own. It can't be pushed.


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## naturalfeddogs (Jan 6, 2011)

DaViking said:


> Dogs with different metabolic abilities than strict carnivores are well suited to pick up and convert nutrients from plant matter. They are made from mother nature that way. That's one of the success factors of the Canis lupus familiaris.
> Our dogs are designed and bred by humans for humans. I don't want a wolf with a wolf's diet. If I magically could leapfrog a few more hundreds of generations they would be even more adapted to eating a balanced meat, fat and carbohydrate diet. Heck, if we really put in the hours we can probably get it well suited to digest corn too, GMO free that is


Our dogs food(kibble) was designed by people. Not dogs. They are related closely to the wolf, which humans did not design. They do thrive on a wolfs diet, balanced over time with variety. As is the wolf.

I really disagree with the whole plant matter thing. A dogs teeth show they are not designed for it, and all the nutrition they can supposedly get out of plants, they can also get in raw meat, bones and organs. They can very easily digest that. Supposedly, in order to get anything out of a plant of any sort it has to be pureed so that it is easier for them to get anything at all out of it. Thats why BARF feeders tend to do that. Maybe they can get a little something out of it, but nothing like raw meat, bones and organs. To me, its just not enough to make a difference in the diet. After all, the only way I have seen grass after eating is still whole either in puke or poop. That tells me plant material just isn't something their bodies are made to handle.


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## Sprocket (Oct 4, 2011)

Have you brought up the idea of a trial?


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## DaViking (Sep 27, 2011)

naturalfeddogs said:


> Our dogs food(kibble) was designed by people. Not dogs. They are related closely to the wolf, which humans did not design. They do thrive on a wolfs diet, balanced over time with variety. As is the wolf.
> 
> I really disagree with the whole plant matter thing. A dogs teeth show they are not designed for it, and all the nutrition they can supposedly get out of plants, they can also get in raw meat, bones and organs. They can very easily digest that. Supposedly, in order to get anything out of a plant of any sort it has to be pureed so that it is easier for them to get anything at all out of it. Thats why BARF feeders tend to do that. Maybe they can get a little something out of it, but nothing like raw meat, bones and organs. To me, its just not enough to make a difference in the diet. After all, the only way I have seen grass after eating is still whole either in puke or poop. That tells me plant material just isn't something their bodies are made to handle.


At best you oversimplify as, not all, but many raw feeders do. Anyway, it's off topic now so i'll leave it.


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## Sheltielover25 (Jan 18, 2011)

You could tell her that you know someone whose dogs have a neurological disorder and are sensitive to toxins. Kind of how an autistic person is sensitive to vaccines and is more likely to have a reaction and they do better on a non-processed food diet. 

When we first started feeding raw we did buy from the grocery stores, but now we have sourced quality food without hormones/antibiotics etc. The kibble is so toxic (no matter how annoyed you kibble feeders are, you can't get around the fact it's chalked full of toxins) it would send them into episodes as we call them. Vaccines do this too and I know both have formaldehyde so it might be that aspect, who knows as the synthetic vitamins are processed with some pretty scary stuff. And I know the chicken they've eaten from the store has it's fair share of ecoli, salmonella, etc but the kibble is a concoction of chemicals and there have been no studies on these chemicals in terms of long-term damage or even in terms of how much they're able to break down. It's deficient. Kibble isn't an adequate diet for any dog.


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## Chocx2 (Nov 16, 2009)

You know my parent didn't want to get all into feeding like chunks of meat, they are older, in their 80s so I convinced them to just give raw for one meal a day and pre-made raw, so they just have a burger or madalians and I forgot the name of the food but it is treated a special way to ward off bacteria. So with that said, they started, saw how it changed their dog, her ear problem stopped, along with her hair loss, it all came back in. And when I pointed this out to them they had an ah ha moment. I doubt they will ever throw a chicken leg in the bowl, but the dog still gets a much better diet and eats kibble once a day instead of all of her meals, they feed three times a day.

And the kibble they changed to is grain free:becky:


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## naturalfeddogs (Jan 6, 2011)

DaViking said:


> At best you oversimplify as, not all, but many raw feeders do. Anyway, it's off topic now so i'll leave it.


Just stating facts. We will agree to disagree.


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## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

DaViking said:


> At best you oversimplify as, not all, but many raw feeders do. Anyway, it's off topic now so i'll leave it.


There is no way to oversimplify it. It's simple. Very simple.


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