# Dane Color Controversy



## CorgiPaws (Mar 31, 2009)

BrownStandardPoodle said:


> Not kinda cute - stunning!!!
> 
> Carol


d'awh, Thanks!
I know technically her coloring is "entirely unacceptable" according to breed standard, but I am actually quite partial to merles, and most of the other non-standard coat patterns and colors. Oops. :tongue:
In fact, I'm determined for my next to be a Brindlequin, like Zuri.

*
ETA: I broke this off of another thread, because I felt it deserved it's own, and is a discussion I'm interested in seeing unfold: friendly reminder- keep it friendly. *


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## kasmal (Oct 1, 2010)

CorgiPaws said:


> In fact, I'm determined for my next to be a Brindlequin, like Zuri.


Zuri is very pretty! But if thats the color you want, I would highly suggest looking into a rescue if you havent already (I havent read your old posts so I dont know if Zuri is a rescue or not) no good breeder will produce Bridlequin puppies, its against the color code of ethics, and its very likely they will end up with poor health and bad conformation.

*ok, getting off my soapbox*


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## CorgiPaws (Mar 31, 2009)

kasmal said:


> Zuri is very pretty! But if thats the color you want, I would highly suggest looking into a rescue if you havent already (I havent read your old posts so I dont know if Zuri is a rescue or not) no good breeder will produce Bridlequin puppies, its against the color code of ethics, and its very likely they will end up with poor health and bad conformation.
> 
> *ok, getting off my soapbox*


Depends on what you consider to be a "good" breeder.
There ARE Brindlequins with excellent conformation. A breeder having their dogs in the show ring does not impress me in the slightest. Not one bit. It is not likely they will end up with poor health and bad conformation if the individual breeding them is doing ALL applicable health testing and only breeding bitches and studs that are of acceptable conformation. 
Merles and Harls are genetically identical (so I learned recently!) yet one is acceptable and one is not. That's how much that there "color code of ethics" makes sense. 
I'm all for rescues, but I personally will probably always get my dogs from GOOD breeders. Any I will have a brindlequin dane someday. 
I look for health testing, knowledge of the lines, conformation, and breeder support. 
CH titles don't impress me much. In fact, not at all. Breeders ought to know their breed standard backwards, forwards, and upside down. 


*alright, I'll get off MY soapbox now. :biggrin:


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## DaneMama (Jun 27, 2008)

kasmal said:


> Zuri is very pretty! But if thats the color you want, I would highly suggest looking into a rescue if you havent already (I havent read your old posts so I dont know if Zuri is a rescue or not) no good breeder will produce Bridlequin puppies, its against the color code of ethics, and its very likely they will end up with poor health and bad conformation.
> 
> *ok, getting off my soapbox*


*sigh*

Why does everyone say this about Brindlequins? Go to the rescue? Seriously? Ugh. I work with one of the largest Dane rescues in the country...we never see brindlequins. Mostly showable colors...so how is this in any way reflective of why rescue would be the place to find such a color???

Zuri is MY beautiful baby and I'm proud to own her. I'm sorry you feel that only good breeders produce the 6 "acceptable" colors but that simply is not true. I couldn't care less if a breeder shows or not, rather I care about the health and temperament of the dogs they produce. I can't tell you how many gorgeous show dogs that have horrible temperaments that I would never want a puppy from. Also, the picture of a perfect show dog is the picture of a highly inbred dog...which is not ideal to me in any way shape or form. I could go on and on about why I wanted an off color of Dane but that isn't what this thread was for....

If you'd like to continue this conversation I'd be happy to explain my reasoning but don't want to intrude on Linsey's thread :biggrin:


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## jdatwood (Apr 13, 2009)

kasmal said:


> no good breeder will produce Bridlequin puppies, its against the color code of ethics, and its very likely they will end up with poor health and bad conformation.
> 
> *ok, getting off my soapbox*


Yeah, you really know what you're talking about don't you? 

Breeding non-standard colors doesn't have any higher risk for poor health OR bad confirmation. 

Unfortunately the AKC only recognizes 5 colors for showing which causes the show world to think they're the only "true" colors acceptable for a Dane.

On the contrary Danes have in upwards of 60 color combinations.

Let's not even get started on show breeding. Look at the damage it's already done to German Shepherds, Basset Hounds, English Bulldogs, Cavalier King Charles Spaniels... the list goes on. These breeds have been severely deformed by the show world "knowing what's best".

You really should do some research on Dane color genetics before you come attacking someone using biased information.


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## RachelsaurusRexU (Sep 4, 2010)

Hehe. 

All I have to say is that they are both strikingly gorgeous pups! I can't wait to see more pics of them as they grow.

Merle is one of my most favorite color patterns, no matter what breed. I've even seen some merle pitties <3! So beautiful. 

Before seeing pictures of Zuri, I'd never seen or heard of a brindlequin Dane. If I ever have one, I think it'll have to be brindlequin! I saw the link to the color chart that Jon posted the other day. I love stuff like that! Very interesting.


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## deb9017 (Aug 31, 2010)

Just wanted to say...brindlequins rock!!!


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## meggels (May 30, 2010)

Just out of curiosity, how does one come about a brindlequin in breeding? Would it be as simple as breeding a brindle to a harlequin and then hoping you get the mash up lol? Is it just a rare thing to happen?

I just ask cause the woman I live with breeds frenchies, is a great breeder, does all the health testing, shows, etc. Very ethical. She bred a honey pied male to a brindle female and got an oddly colored female lol. At first she came out looking like perhaps a fawn with a very light/minimal black mask, but she's now 3 years old and has gotten lighter. It's a color you don't see often/ever in frenchies, my friend was sorta dumbfounded lol.


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## DaneMama (Jun 27, 2008)

Yes, brindlequins come from breeding a harlequin (white with black patches) to a fawn (tan with black mask) or to a brindle. One would get a wide range of colors that are unacceptable in the AKC show ring. These "unacceptable" colors carry no less deleterious genes at all, despite one would tell you. In fact I believe that mixing the color families actually provide more genetic diversity within the breed because you're outcrossing at the farthest extent possible. 

I won't name names at all but let's look at one of the top show breeders of Danes in the country who probably knows more of dog coat color genetics than anyone else in the US. She shows, health tests, etc. She had a litter this year, one harl, one blue Merle and one white puppy. The white puppy is deaf and will have retinal degeneration over the course of a few years and will most likely end up sight impaired if not totally blind. Not to mention with whites their chance at getting a debilitating disease called wobblers is much greater. Don't you think that a reputable breeder who knows the ins and outs of coat color genetics would try their best NOT to produce puppies like this? Answer is no because the breeding that produces white puppies also produces a correctly marked harlequin that will do better in the show ring compared to a harl produced from a "safer" breeding. A lot of show harl breeders will cull these white puppies at birth. For me, they should never have produced such puppies in the first place. When breeding harls there's always a chance to get whites, there's no real way around that. But there is a way to try your best to NOT produce these puppies.

With breeding show acceptable colors and correct conformation you must breed for specific traits which most often requires using breeding techniques like line breeding (breeding two closely related dogs like uncle with niece, etc) to lock in specific looks or conformation. To me this is unacceptable. We as humans don't breed with out family members for good reason (or really shouldn't) because it creates such a tight gene pool that it creates genetic disease. I feel that if its not acceptable with dogs either for similar reasons. Why do you think that some of the more overly bred dogs are prone to 50+ genetic diseases? Danes are a relatively "healthy" breed seeing as they aren't prone to as many genetic diseases as other breeds but I feel that it's going to get worse with them if something is not done about it. 

I'm not putting down dog showing in the slightest. I just think a TON needs to change about it....


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## CorgiPaws (Mar 31, 2009)

danemama08 said:


> I'm not putting down dog showing in the slightest.


As the show world stands now, I'll be the first to say: to heck with it. There's SO much backwards with the stupid AKC it holds no merit in my book.


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## DaneMama (Jun 27, 2008)

Same here. Learning that show dogs can't be taught any commands that could interfere with a correct stack was the last straw for me LOL

I also think that it takes a lot more skill and a scrupulous eye to pick out a breeding pair that are not closely related at all that WILL compliment each others conformation. While the chances of producing a champion show dog are much less to me it means more. Let's think of it this way: Does it take more skill to breed two very closely related dog that have "locked" in genes to produce numerous champions? Or more skill to out cross two unrelated dogs that may produce one champion? To me it's the latter of the two. I think using line breeding is a lazy way to produce champions because the genes are locked in and the offspring are highly predictable. If one can use their extensive knowledge on conformation within their breed of choice they should be able to choose an out crossed pair and still produce healthy and beautiful puppies that may make it to championship in conformation. I think it means more when the meaning of "champion" is a highly restricted goal for a dog to achieve. But in the reality of the show world, one must simply wait til the right judge comes along that prefers the look of one particular dog. 

For example, a good friend of mine recently acquired an 8 month old brindle show Dane. The breeder/handler wanted to rehome her because she wasn't doing as well in the show ring, so he sold her to my friend. This puppy is still being shown in conformation. Her last show she came in dead last because the judge didn't prefer her playful personality. So I asked my friend if she was going to continue showing her and if the dog had any chance to gain her championship. My friend said yes because all it would take is the right couple of judges that prefer her to start winning her some points. This does not make any sense to me. I would like to think that each judge has nearly the same views across the boards and judge fairly and not let their personal preferences get the vote...but I guess that doesn't happen all the time 

I really like the idea of showing, but not the reality of it in today's world.


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## CorgiPaws (Mar 31, 2009)

Well said, Natalie. I could not agree more. 
And the fact that when on the hunt for a female companion Boxer, show breeders pretty much treated me like dirt... and I'm not going to drop names, but I will say that I was in contact with four very "reputable" well-known breeders, and only ONE didn't down talk me as a pet home, and that one was also the only one who seemed to even care about the pet quality puppies. Two of them asked no questions, just told me what number I was on the wait list, and that I could send a deposit when the litter arrived. 
I was disgusted. When did "top breeders" become less concerned about the quality of life for the dogs they produce, and more concerned about how many titles are attached to their kennel name. It's sad. Really sad. 

It should be more about the actual DOGS, and less about who the handler is, what kennel name is on the dog, and who the judge is. Isn't it called DOG showing?


OH! I also think dogs should have to have been health tested AND had acceptable results to even be considered "finished".


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## John Rambo (Sep 27, 2010)

My fiance worked for UKC and I have been exposed in the AKC-UKC show atmosphere. Conformation and showing is BIG business, lets put it that way. And while we are on the subject so is merely registraton(department where she worked). I look for temperment and health first, then conformation. Most of the breeders I have worked ( show and non-show) with will be very happy and proud to produce a detailed history of hip testing(OFA), some going back 3-4 generations. I am proud to say I have owned both rescued dogs (non-purebreed), and purebreed dogs. I know more of what I am getting health-wise/temperment from a RESPONSIBLE breeder than a rescue dog. This is not to say that shelter dogs are not wonderful/lovable, deservable dogs. Parent clubs usually drive the conformation standard which affects the AKC standard, and changes develop USUALLY over a period of time. A white schnauzer is unacceptable because the same gene that causes blindness is tied to the white gene. This for example, is acceptable color conformation(for health reasons). I am new to the Poodle world, yet Parti-colored dogs are NOT acceptable in the AKC standard, yet they are in UKC. Parti's are beautiful as well, I do not know the reason, if any, they are not accepted in the AKC standard. You can be sure that the parent club "The Poodle Club Of America" would have major influence if it was ever to be presented than accepted in the AKC standard. I know I have rambled alot here. I am just here to state there are alot of loving, caring, and extremely professional owner/breeders in the show world who have a hell of alot of knowledge about their specific breed.


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## DaneMama (Jun 27, 2008)

Oh, the knowledge that show breeders is of no question, they have an endless knowledge of their breed. I guess its what they choose to do with it that really matters to me. 

The white gene works the same in Danes. It is carried in all harlequin family colored Danes. So even a perfectly marked show harl will carry for it, even though they are not completely white themselves. Like I said above, there are ways to decrease the chances of producing a deaf/blind/both puppy, but there is no guarantee that you wont end up with one even after being as careful as possible. UNLESS you breed your harlequin Dane to an outside color like Brindle because it takes two copies of the "white" gene to produce a deaf puppy. Typically other color families within Danes do NOT carry the white gene. 

There is no health implications as to why outside color breedings are banned in the AKC show ring. Its just outside the breed standard that was set a very long time ago. Many well established breeding lines will occasionally do this off color breeding to strengthen their dogs conformation because fawn/brindle Danes typically have better body conformation than harlequins do. But this happens rarely and is kept "hush hush" in the show world.

Either way, I'm in love with off color Danes and I will always be an advocate for them!


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## Spaz (Sep 3, 2009)

danemama08 said:


> For example, a good friend of mine recently acquired an 8 month old brindle show Dane. The breeder/handler wanted to rehome her because she wasn't doing as well in the show ring, so he sold her to my friend. This puppy is still being shown in conformation. *Her last show she came in dead last because the judge didn't prefer her playful personality.* So I asked my friend if she was going to continue showing her and if the dog had any chance to gain her championship. My friend said yes because all it would take is the right couple of judges that prefer her to start winning her some points. This does not make any sense to me. I would like to think that each judge has nearly the same views across the boards and judge fairly and not let their personal preferences get the vote...but I guess that doesn't happen all the time
> 
> I really like the idea of showing, but not the reality of it in today's world.


That is just sad. :frown: This dog's name wouldn't happened to be Nel?


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## CorgiPaws (Mar 31, 2009)

Spaz said:


> That is just sad. :frown: This dog's name wouldn't happened to be Nel?


:tongue:
small world?


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## DaneMama (Jun 27, 2008)

Spaz said:


> That is just sad. :frown: This dog's name wouldn't happened to be Nel?


Yes and she is absolutely beautiful and wonderful too...I can't see why she didn't place higher, but honestly I have no idea how show judges decide.


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## RachelsaurusRexU (Sep 4, 2010)

Okay, I'm bringing this thread back up because I have some questions! 

Someday in the future I will have a Dane. Not planning on it anytime soon, five is more than enough, but I figure it doesn't hurt to start doing my research ahead of time! I will most likely go through a reputable breeder. I am all for rescue, my dogs are all rescues. However, every Dane that has come through my shelter has lost its life at a young age due to wobblers, osteocarcoma, etc. I feel like their life expectancy is already short, and I want to do everything I can to increase my chances of having a healthy, long-lived Dane. 

I have never purchased a dog from a breeder, and though I know *basically* what to look for/stay away from, I've never had a need to go in depth with that research. There is one thing I do know. I want a "mismarked" Dane! They're beautiful; ALL of the "off" colors. My question is, how do I find a reputable breeder that produces off-colored dogs? I've already started looking at the GDCA site and their breeder list, of course they only work with acceptable colors... 

Natalie, Jon, Linsey and anyone else with mismarked Danes... How did you find yours? Can you tell me a little bit about the process?


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## DaneMama (Jun 27, 2008)

My first question is if you feel that showing dogs is important or not? Do you care about having champions in the pedigree? If so you won't find a breeder that shows and breeds for mismarks. Usually in the cases of mismarks (to the degree of Zuri) they are culled at birth. Mismarks like this are produced from crossing the color families (which is genetically and physically harmless) which is done to strengthen the conformation of the harlequin bloodlines (fawn and brindle carry for the best conformation overall). So occasionally a show breeder who shows and breeds harls will bring in a fawn or brindle to strengthen the conformation of their harlequin lines. So to keep the mismarks out they are culled (either at birth or by spay/neuter). But this is rare at best. 

If you dont care about dog showing that opens your world to breeders who intentionally breed outside the color families. Many times these breeders are considered BYBers and are discredited. Which most are. But there are a very few that breed with health and color (rather than breed standard) as the primary focus of their program. Finding these breeders is tricky and I have yet to actually find one that I agree with completely. I *may* consider starting my own lines sometime in the future.


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## RachelsaurusRexU (Sep 4, 2010)

Nope, no interest in showing. I just want a healthy companion with a great temperament.

It seems like there are soooo many breeders out there who boast about their "designer Danes" and put $2,500+ price tags on them for being "rare". I'm guessing this is precisely what I want to stay away from? How do I differentiate between a BYB and a responsible breeder who just happens to have a special interest in off colored dogs?


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## xxshaelxx (Mar 8, 2010)

Well, hopefully for your sake, Nat will have a litter or two? XP


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## RachelsaurusRexU (Sep 4, 2010)

But but but I live all the way in CT! :*( 

(Though, I'd probably fly out for a sweet wittle puppy face!)


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## DaneMama (Jun 27, 2008)

If a litter of "mismarked" Danes is in my future it's years out! 

I need to find a health tested (and tests healthy), great representative of the breed with a fantastic temperament foundation female harlequin Dane. And then find someone (ahem....I have one candidate already) that will get/own a male brindle Dane of the same quality. That will be the foundation of my/our "mismarked" bloodlines.


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## RachelsaurusRexU (Sep 4, 2010)

LOL. Well, that's perfect because getting a Dane is years out for me, too!


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## DaneMama (Jun 27, 2008)

This is the breeder that I've been looking into lately. I've emailed for more information on her breeding dogs....

Blue Diamond Danes


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## RachelsaurusRexU (Sep 4, 2010)

OMG look at those beautiful puppies!!!!

The chocolate harls and chocolate merles are freaking gorgeous!


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## RachelsaurusRexU (Sep 4, 2010)

WOOT! I *may* have just lucked out. 

FOXRUN DANES - Home

The woman who breeds these Danes is the office manager of a vet hospital that my shelter works with. I never knew that she bred Danes. She has some beautious merles in those previous puppy pictures....


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## DaneMama (Jun 27, 2008)

I really like Sophie! She's gorgeous...but I *hate* the cropped ears....they make me sad for those Danes :frown:


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## RachelsaurusRexU (Sep 4, 2010)

I'm not into the cropped ears either :-/

Man, the more I look at the harlequins, the more I like them. They look so darn cute with pink noses! 

This is going to haunt me for years until I'm ready for a Dane.


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## DaneMama (Jun 27, 2008)

How many dogs do you already have?


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## RachelsaurusRexU (Sep 4, 2010)

Five. And definitely not looking to add a sixth, haha. But someday!


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## DaneMama (Jun 27, 2008)

Ah yes...Zuri was #5 for us too and we are maxed out right now! It'll be a while before we are ready for another one


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## RachelsaurusRexU (Sep 4, 2010)

Yeah, five is a lot of work and money!

Hey, I just found a copy of Foxrun's puppy questionaire. Do you think that mentioning a more "natural rearing", things like raw feeding and limited vax is a bad idea? Especially since she's been a vet tech since the 80's... Should I not say anything unless I'm asked? I mean, I don't want to be dishonest but I don't want to be denied a puppy just because somebody doesn't understand my good intentions. 

Just thinking ahead LOL.


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## RawFedDogs (Jun 16, 2008)

Definately don't say anything unless asked. I was denied adopting from a rescue one time because of exactly this very thing. In the future if I want to adopt, I will definately lie about these two things unless I'm relatively sure they are ok with it. :biggrin:


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## RachelsaurusRexU (Sep 4, 2010)

Yeah, that's sort of what I figured. What an absurd reason to turn someone down. Would they turn somebody down for feeding Alpo and loading the dog with flea powder? Seems a little a** backward!

I found exactly what I want. Minus the cropped ears, hopefully.


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## DaneMama (Jun 27, 2008)

Very cute!!!! I think my next Dane (years from now) will *hopefully* be a harlequin OR brindle female from excellent conformation and health tested lines but without the use to linebreeding as much as possible. I know, nearly impossible to find because almost every single show breeder uses linebreeding as their core "tool" in producing show prospects (their only goal is to produce champions- conformation comes first, health second and temperament third...I know this because of lengthy discussions on the Great Dane Club of America's online forum and let me tell you I was the weird one for wanting a NON linebred dog  )


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