# Liver detoxing/flushing



## Kat (Jul 12, 2011)

I got Rubys bloodwork back (you can see if under raw feeding in the bloodwork data base page 7) and Rubys ATL was elevated - *ALT(SGPT) 331 U/L normal range being(12-118), *which slightly worried the vet. She said it was not incredibly high, but suggested I do Clavamox and retest in a month. I would prefer to not do antibiotics unless absolutley neccessary. 

My vet said it could be an infection in her liver. When I got replies in the bloodword data base people were suggesting to do a liver flush/detox with milk thistle, or whatever else Liz or anyone else might suggest. Im going to my friends health food store on Saturday, so I can pick up anything that is needed to help bring her liver enzymes back to normal.

Any help is really appreciated, I just want Ruby to be as healthy as possible.


----------



## Liz (Sep 27, 2010)

I am sorry those values are high. I have seen worse. You might want to try this protocol. If one of mine had high liver values this is what i would do. 

Primal Ultra Defense - 1 capsule

Bovine colostrum - 2 capsule one morning one evening

L-glutamine Gastriplex by Thornepau D' arco tincture (it is an herb which helps eliminate candida)

Milk Thistle (to help the liver in detoxing)Dose as % of adult human dose
5 lbs 10%
5-10 lbs 15%
11-20 lbs 20%
21-40 lbs 30%
41-70 lbs 50%
71-100 lbs 75%
100 lbs 100%


Nutribiotics Liquid Grapefruit Seed Extract - 2 drops per every 10 pounds body weight daily (dilute in food or water)

Colloidal Silver (preferably made by yourself or someone who makes it) a couple of teaspoons three times per day at least

Raw green tripe

Hope this helps.


----------



## Kat (Jul 12, 2011)

Sorry Liz, do I do all those things together, or pick one?

If I need to do them all together, do you have links for primal ultra defense, L-glutamine Gastriplex by Thornepau D' arco tincture, and Colloidal Silver that I can buy online? I have never seen any of those at my friends health food store.


----------



## Liz (Sep 27, 2010)

Yes, you want to do all together. I would check Discount Vitamins, Supplements, Health Foods, Whole Foods and Sports Nutrition online | Vitacost first as they usually have the best prices. Try not to skimp on the primal Defense Ultra as it is by far one of the best probiotics and you can take it yourself. The colloidal silver should be at your friend's or any health food area, but you can get it online. Let me know if you have trouble finding anything on that site. This is the best protocol for liver support I have found - the last dog we recommended for had number in the 800's and was down in the normal range in two months. He was older at 7 years old so I have seen it work.


----------



## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

the primal defence....you can get at vitacost or swanson or i think, even amazon.

liz told me to get wellness colloidal silver but only because she likes the spray bottle....i think she said it was also one of the better ones, for a commercial product...

just google the others....iherb, vitacost...amazon, drugs.com, i think....may have any or all of them.

amazon has the grape seed extract. that is where i got mine....that brand, too...

L-glutamine you can get from amazon or vitacost...

the bovine colustrum, you can also get online...just google it....


----------



## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

just to put this into perspective.....these values are not so high as to cause panic. they are elevated, yes....but not terribly so....

so you have time to get the ingredients you need to start a proper detox....breathe..


----------



## Kat (Jul 12, 2011)

So, would it be ok to retest in 2 months, so I have time to get everything that is needed together?


----------



## Liz (Sep 27, 2010)

Yes, just order and if you can't afford all I would wait on the Grapefruit Seed Extract and Colloidal Silver.


----------



## Kat (Jul 12, 2011)

Should I stop ACV, acidophilus, and coconut oil for this time? 

I will be able to afford everything on your list. For some strange reason my friends healthfood store doesnt sell colloidal silver, so my best bet would be to just purchase that online as well. The only thing I know her store sells is milk thistle. 

Thank you so much for your help Liz, I will try my best not to panic 

And Im curious, what does the grapefruit seed extract and colloidal silver do for the liver? I thought the GSE was mainly for parasites, and colloidal silver for cuts and scrapes. Does it just help to further cleanse and detoxify the liver?

I may have to see if I can find any Canadian sites that sell these products, unless the international fees on the site you linked arent too high.


----------



## Liz (Sep 27, 2010)

Yes stop everything else - raw feed, no topicals, no chemicals in her enviornment, use vinegar and water, or Grapefruit Seed extract and water or alcohol to clean. Baking soda and vinegar make a good scrub paste to clean also. Just purify as much as possible to give her a chance to cleanse and heal. Her numbers are up there but not disastrously so and I think she will be just fine next test time.  Plus you will have a bunch of first aid kit stuff left over so you won't have to buy stuff when you need it. It will be there. Kinda nice - when you use anti biotics and such you give the dose and are done with nothing to show for it. Keep us posted.


----------



## wolfsnaps88 (Jan 2, 2012)

Can you use these products every once in a while on dogs to just detox the liver? I am interested in doing this for my dogs regardless of whether their livers need anything? If so, how often should i give them this stuff? I already have the grapefruit seed extract. 

Thanks


----------



## Liz (Sep 27, 2010)

Personally, if I think they need to flush their system maybe due to stress or vaccines or veterinary procedure I would use only the milk thistle and Primal Defense Ultra. The rest would be overkill and it is definitely detrimental to overdo any treatment even holistic. I would not give my dog any treatments with out a reason. Keep their enviornment as free of toxins as possible, feed an excellent diet, give exercise and clean water and you should be pretty good and set to go. If you do have to do anything that would involve stressing your pups system then due the minimal treatment necessary.  I have my old guy dealing with a recurring asbcess. He is on Primal Defense Ultra, Grapefruit Seed Extract and Bentonite clay. He is also undergoing another surgical procedure tomorrow to debride and flush the cheek where the abscess is. The only other herbal/natural treatment being given is to my girls who are getting ready to go into season and are both being bred and they receive an Evening Primrose Oil capsule to promote a balanced hormonal cycle. No one else needs anything so they don't get anything. Remember you are taking really extraordinary care of your dog -he doesn't need anything like the intervention the run of the mill pet does. You are an excellent dog mom.


----------



## wolfsnaps88 (Jan 2, 2012)

So shall it be. I am probably going to buy the primal defense and take it myself too. Sounds like good stuff. Thanks again!


----------



## BeagleCountry (Jan 20, 2012)

When I had a 14 year old Beagle with high liver values the vet said not to be concerned until the numbers were 3 times higher than normal. I found other references to 3 - 5 times higher than normal. Keep in mind that the liver can regenerate and heal itself. I gave Denamarin which is Milk Thistle and SAM-e. These ingredients can be purchased separately. Within a couple of months the numbers dropped significantly. Then, became near normal. 

Below are links to Dr. Jean Dodds liver cleansing diet. It is a home cooked diet designed to cleanse the liver of medication used to treat epilepsy. White meat (fish and chicken) are easier for the liver and kidneys to process than red meats due to lower purines.
Liver Cleansing Diet and Milk Thistle
Dr Dodds' Liver Cleansing Diet


----------



## MollyWoppy (Mar 19, 2010)

This is an excellent thread.
Thanks for all your input you guys, this is a great reference for anyone worried if their dog's liver values are a touch high.


----------



## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

wolfsnaps88 said:


> So shall it be. I am probably going to buy the primal defense and take it myself too. Sounds like good stuff. Thanks again!


i take the primal defense.....so far, my dogs haven't needed it.

i believe less is more when it comes to an already well functioning immune system...if your dog is healthy, then you just keep truckin'.


----------



## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

i take milk thistle and dandelion root for my liver issues.

i have to say they made me itch at first; so, if that is a common start due to the detoxing of the liver, don't worry about it...it does go away


----------



## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

Health Mart 2000 "Your Canadian Health Food Vitamin Store"

Natural Health Food Store - Online Delivery | Buy Nutritional Supplements and Vitamins Online | Worldwide Mail Order - Feel Good Natural Health Stores

The Vitamin Shop - Canada's Vitamin & Nutritional Supplement Dispensary

i don't know if this will help, but if you google 'herbal stores in canada', you may well come up with canadian versions, although i know that vitacost and amazon ship to canada.


----------



## Kat (Jul 12, 2011)

I really appreciate all this help from all of you, it has really calmed me down. I keep telling myself "it's not going to make anything better if I freak out over it" whenever I started to get anxious lol.

And Liz, I can not find L-glutamine Gastriplex by Thornepau D' arco tincture anywhere, I googled it but I dont know what I am looking for. Would you be able to link me to the website page where I can buy it please?
And, is raw green beef tripe the best one? I can order either lamb tripe or beef tripe


----------



## Liz (Sep 27, 2010)

Sorry I thought I had seperated it - any L-Glutamine would work great check where you are getting everything else. The gastriplex would really just be for liver disease with much higher numbers. Again sorry I thought I had removed the gastriplex .


----------



## Kat (Jul 12, 2011)

Oh I see, ok good to know 

So, which is better, lamb tripe or beef tripe, I can get either. Im leaning towards the beef tripe because its 5 pounds for 6.25 while the lamb tripe is 5 pounds for 15 dollars


----------



## Liz (Sep 27, 2010)

Either tripe is great - is it gentle and nutritionally beneficial and both have natural probiotics. Get the cheaper one! Save a tiny bit.


----------



## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

Kat said:


> Oh I see, ok good to know
> 
> So, which is better, lamb tripe or beef tripe, I can get either. Im leaning towards the beef tripe because its 5 pounds for 6.25 while the lamb tripe is 5 pounds for 15 dollars


don't hate me for this answer...but i think they are both fine in their own way. beef is what i have right now....my dogs love it.


----------



## Kat (Jul 12, 2011)

Beef it is  lol... saves me 10 dollars


----------



## Kat (Jul 12, 2011)

I couldnt find any that actually say BOVINE colostrum, just Colostrum. Im sorry for being annoying, but I found all the stuff on your list, but before I order it, I want to make sure its all right, and good stuff. The L-glutamine was confusing, there were so many. Whenever you have a chance just to check the links, I would really appreciate it.

Garden of Life Primal Defense® Ultra Probiotic Formula -- 90 Vegetarian Capsules - Vitacost

Symbiotics Colostrum Plus -- 480 mg - 240 Capsules - Vitacost

Vitacost L-Glutamine -- 2,000 mg per serving - 300 Capsules - Vitacost

Nature's Way Milk Thistle Standardized -- 120 Vegetarian Capsules - Vitacost

NutriBiotic GSE® Liquid Concentrate Grapefruit Seed Extract -- 4 fl oz - Vitacost

Source Naturals Wellness Colloidal Silver


----------



## Liz (Sep 27, 2010)

Looks perfect - good job. Plus you are well on your way to a nice first aid kit for you and your pup.


----------



## Kat (Jul 12, 2011)

$133.81 before shipping charges and canadian funds... Im scared at what the price will be lol.


----------



## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

Kat said:


> $133.81 before shipping charges and canadian funds... Im scared at what the price will be lol.


were you able to look at the canadian online stores too? and compare?

it's expensive...and you are buying it all at once....
look at it as a stocking up....

first time we walked into super supplements, it cost 186. or something. i was in sticker shock. then i started looking online to find cheaper prices for what i wanted....


----------



## Kat (Jul 12, 2011)

Yeah, I would prefer to get it all from one website. And all the Canadian websites that Iv checked dont offer all the products. Ill just get it from Vitacost, its a one time thing. I gave up my weekend because I wanted to save money, so Ill put it towards Rubys detox lol


----------



## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

Kat said:


> Yeah, I would prefer to get it all from one website. And all the Canadian websites that Iv checked dont offer all the products. Ill just get it from Vitacost, its a one time thing. I gave up my weekend because I wanted to save money, so Ill put it towards Rubys detox lol


the things we do for our dogs...


----------



## Kat (Jul 12, 2011)

166.83... not too bad. But, that doesnt include duty fees, which I may or may not have to pay when it is delivered to my door. I expected it to be over 200 though, so Im happy. 

And yes Re, the things we do for our dogs lol. I buy better meat for Ruby than myself too >.<


----------



## Kat (Jul 12, 2011)

I just got an email from the meat supplier I ordered from for the first time, they accidently sent out GROUND green tripe instead of whole green tripe. Is that ok? Iv never fed any ground foods before, I like to see the food as a whole to inspect it lol.


----------



## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

Kat said:


> I just got an email from the meat supplier I ordered from for the first time, they accidently sent out GROUND green tripe instead of whole green tripe. Is that ok? Iv never fed any ground foods before, I like to see the food as a whole to inspect it lol.


i feed ground tripe....they seem to like it. they get enough bony meals that i don't worry about whether or not the tripe is in strips or whole..

the thing about whole is the texture, giving the dogs a complicated meal....they have to work at it.....

feed beef ribs...that'll give her teeth a work out


----------



## Kat (Jul 12, 2011)

And Liz, Iv been tracking my order and it should be her for tomorrow. So would you mind giving me the instructions for how to use all those supplements?

Primal Ultra Defense - 1 capsule

Bovine colostrum - 2 capsule one morning one evening

L-glutamine *1 capsule a day??*

Milk Thistle (to help the liver in detoxing)Dose as % of adult human dose
5 lbs 10%
5-10 lbs 15%
11-20 lbs 20%
21-40 lbs 30%
41-70 lbs 50%
71-100 lbs 75%
100 lbs 100%


Nutribiotics Liquid Grapefruit Seed Extract - 2 drops per every 10 pounds body weight daily (dilute in food or water) *Ruby is 16 pounds, so would she get 3 drops per day??)*
Colloidal Silver (preferably made by yourself or someone who makes it) a couple of teaspoons three times per day at least *(so 6 teaspoons a day???)*

Raw green tripe *(how much per day??)*


----------



## Kat (Jul 12, 2011)

magicre said:


> i feed ground tripe....they seem to like it. they get enough bony meals that i don't worry about whether or not the tripe is in strips or whole..
> 
> the thing about whole is the texture, giving the dogs a complicated meal....they have to work at it.....
> 
> feed beef ribs...that'll give her teeth a work out


She doesnt do too well with large amount of beef, so would lamb ribs be a good substitute for that?


----------



## Kat (Jul 12, 2011)

So Ruby is done with the milk thistle on Tuesday. Can I start back with giving her 1/2 teaspoon of ACV and acidophillus every other day again? (gradually building up to 1 teaspoon of ACV every other day). Her tear stains are back since the detox started when I took her off the ACV. 

And can I start the organic coconut oil again too?

And, Iv found the bovine colostrum has helped with her allergies this year, can I continue giving that once a day?


----------



## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

when are you retesting her blood?


----------



## Kat (Jul 12, 2011)

Tuesday July 10, 1 week after the last dose of milk thistle.


----------



## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

i would get her blood tested. not much time between now and then....

and then add things back in one at a time to make sure she has no reactions, even though these are things she has had before.

oh. and btw, i started giving bubba four or five blueberries every day or every other day....and by golly, they seem to work. LOL


----------



## Kat (Jul 12, 2011)

No way, really? Blueberries? For allergies, or for everything? Does it make a difference if they are organic blueberries or regular blueberries?

And like I mentioned on FB, should I try fresh fish with Ruby sometime in the future, or just stick with the fish oils? I stopped the canned sardines since the detox because of the high sodium content.


----------



## Liz (Sep 27, 2010)

how is ruby doing?


----------



## twotonelover (Jan 10, 2011)

Kat said:


> And like I mentioned on FB, should I try fresh fish with Ruby sometime in the future, or just stick with the fish oils? I stopped the canned sardines since the detox because of the high sodium content.


I don't see why not! Its certainly better than canned  I give Rosey a whole sardine once a week. The ones I get range from 5-7oz so they are the perfect sized meal for her. I also got some salmon heads and tails recently, so we'll see how she likes those.


----------



## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

Kat said:


> No way, really? Blueberries? For allergies, or for everything? Does it make a difference if they are organic blueberries or regular blueberries?
> 
> And like I mentioned on FB, should I try fresh fish with Ruby sometime in the future, or just stick with the fish oils? I stopped the canned sardines since the detox because of the high sodium content.


just for the allergies. he won't need them in the winter. i thought i'd try it since i'd seen it mentioned at least three different times 

as to fish? sure, fish is good. sardines, herring, anchovies in season, mackerel...those i believe are high in omega threes.

i do both.

keep in mind though that fish oil can raise liver enzymes. i just read that. LOL

since my liver enzymes are off the charts, i now dread going in for blood work and will have to tell my doc. if ever i go back LOL


----------



## Kat (Jul 12, 2011)

Liz said:


> how is ruby doing?


Ruby is doing really well, thanks Liz  Her poops have been normal since the first week of the detox (except for a few days about 2 weeks in). I think from the detox it fixed her ears too, one ear especially would always get dirty very quickly no matter how much I cleaned it, but its been good now. 

Hopefully everything will go good with the blood recheck next week too!


----------



## Kat (Jul 12, 2011)

magicre said:


> just for the allergies. he won't need them in the winter. i thought i'd try it since i'd seen it mentioned at least three different times
> 
> as to fish? sure, fish is good. sardines, herring, anchovies in season, mackerel...those i believe are high in omega threes.
> 
> ...


Yeah Re, I remember you telling me that fish oil can raise liver enzymes. I wonder why that can happen?


----------



## meggels (May 30, 2010)

Kat- I just wanted to let you know that a year ago, I had a blood panel done on Murph a year ago, when he first began his raw diet, and his liver values were a little high.

I got his bloodwork done about a month ago, and all his levels were perfect  Please don't fret too much!


----------



## Kat (Jul 12, 2011)

Thanks Meggels  

August 19 will be 1 year since Ruby began raw... wow it's crazy how quickly time goes by!


----------



## creek817 (Feb 18, 2012)

Kat said:


> No way, really? Blueberries? For allergies, or for everything? Does it make a difference if they are organic blueberries or regular blueberries?
> 
> And like I mentioned on FB, should I try fresh fish with Ruby sometime in the future, or just stick with the fish oils? I stopped the canned sardines since the detox because of the high sodium content.


I think they're supposed to be wild blueberries, but that's only from what I've read on here, I have no experience with them either way, =)


----------



## Kat (Jul 12, 2011)

At my grocery store they sell frozen wild blueberries, would that work? Lol


----------



## creek817 (Feb 18, 2012)

I should think so!


----------



## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

Kat said:


> At my grocery store they sell frozen wild blueberries, would that work? Lol


i didn't think any blueberries would work. LOL.

but they seem to be.

they are organic, i know that. i have read it did not matter if they were wild or not.

but it would make sense if they were local and wild. 

mine aren't. they are from oregon.


----------



## Kat (Jul 12, 2011)

Rubys blood re check is tomorrow! Wish us luck! I really hope her liver enzymes will be back to normal levels


----------



## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

i was just thinking about that today.

luck.


----------



## Kat (Jul 12, 2011)

Thanks Re


----------



## Kat (Jul 12, 2011)

Alright, I got the results back today...

Refresh - Normal range here goes between 12-118. When Ruby was first tested 2 months ago she was at 331. 

*Now she is down to 168, so it came down 50%. *

Im glad its down to the hundreds again, because now she is only 50 points over average, but I was really hoping she would be back in normal range, GRRR!

The vet suggested a TON of things I could do, I wrote a few of them down, some I found too confusing to keep up with, but here were some her suggestions:

-Do a bile acid test to see if the liver is running properly
-Do an abdominal ultrasound to see the inside of the liver
-Put her on a course of antibiotics and a liver support med from the vet
-Leave Ruby at the vets for a day, do 1 blood sample before breakfast (15 hour fast), feed her, and take another blood sample.

All those options are expensiveeeeeee, and I personally don't feel as if she needs an ultrasound or antibiotics. I dont even know how they perform a bile acid test. And I dont feel comfortable leaving her at a clinic all day.

One thing I asked, and my vet agreed, is that I should continue giving Ruby the milk thistle supplement I was using during her detox.

And then the vet said some scary things like "it might be genetic" "she might have a liver shunt" and some other medical scary terms pretty much saying she might have a bad liver. 

Should I be worried? I think if I continue giving her milk thistle she should get back to normal. Any other suggestions? Are there other liver function supporting remedies I should put her on? 

I told her about the possibility of fish oil causing elevated liver enzymes, and she pretty much said its not normal for a dog to have elevated liver enzymes and she has raw fed patients who dont have that problem. Trying to stay calm, but when the vet is saying stuff like bad liver, I cant help but ever so slightly panic.

Help/suggestions?


----------



## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

you have a raw fed dog......blood work is simply not going to be the same as a kibble fed dog....

plus, the liver takes time to right itself...no matter what happened...more and more, i now suspect she had a little infection....

i would retest in a few months.....and i would continue the colostrum and the probiotic.....

liz will be along to tell you what she thinks...but the fact that her enzymes came down by 50% is huge.


----------



## Kat (Jul 12, 2011)

*Sigh of relief* I can always count on you for talking me down when it comes to Ruby, Re 

Yeah, I was telling the vet Im happy it came down by so much, and the vet was saying it is good that it came down but bad that its not normal. 

And yes, I will continue giving colostrum and the primal defence ultra probiotic. Along with the milkthistle and I will be adding coconut oil to her meals again (start with every other day, then work up to once a day). 

Then, when she is doing ok with those, can I start adding in the ACV again? It really helps with her tearstains.

Im guessing the things I wont be using is the l-glutamine, colloidal silver, and GSE, right?

I think I will get her retested in October or November... give her 3-4 months instead of 2.


----------



## Liz (Sep 27, 2010)

That is good news. Wow, down by 50% is huge. I wish it was normal too but I think where she is, is still pretty fantastic. Nothing the vet could have given you would have brought her numbers down faster and you are right anti bitoics are only going to damage her immune system for no reason. I would wait at least three or four months and just like Re said keep the Primal Defense and Milk Thistle going. The GSE, L-glutamine and Colloidal silver can all go in you first aid kit. 

If Ruby is acting happy, eating well, and has good color in her gums I would just rest assured you are on the right track and give her more time to heal. You are doing a great job!

Oh, yes the ACV is fine as the coconut oil but build back up slowly until you are giving these as often as you like.


----------



## MollyWoppy (Mar 19, 2010)

How old is Ruby, Kat?
(I've somehow missed the last 2 months of post's on this thread, so I'm way out of date).


----------



## Kat (Jul 12, 2011)

Mollywoppy, it shows her exact age in my sig pic, I have the counter. She is 2 years and 7 months old. 

And Liz, she has been acting like her usual self the entire time - still whines and jumps and gets super excited for food (except I think she is getting bored of pork - maybe its not bloody enough but she doesnt scarf it down as fast as her lamb or beef), gets playful and excited at even the mention of one of her toys. If it wasnt for the blood work I wouldnt even have thought there was anything going on. And yes, her gums look perfect too, I brush her teeth every couple of days and always inspect her mouth while doing so.

The beef balls have been such a huge life saver, I can put anything in them and she eats it right up. Now with the addition of coconut oil she will love it even more.


----------



## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

honest, kat.....the only dog i've ever had that ever ever ever had down the middle results was bubba and this was only his second set of blood panels....the first one wasn't so nice.

even malia, as healthy as she is, has times when her blood work has some anomalies...

here's the thing. on any given day, our blood can have too much or too little of anything. and that's the day it shows on blood work.

test her again in two months. bet it comes down more.


----------



## Liz (Sep 27, 2010)

Kat, give her body time to work. We are always in a rush. If she had a festering infection or sever injury I would be the first to tell you run to the vet NOW, but she is happy, feeling good and behaving normally. Her number are looking good and will only get better. Be prepared though sometimes it is kind of like losing weight - if you have a lot to loose it comes off fast but that last 20 pounds really hangs on so I would wait at least two months if not three before restesting and she still may be a bit high but it will keep going down slowly but surely. You are doing great - just find a zen place and be calm and patient.


----------



## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

i had another thought, kat....

we give our dogs liver. liver is a means by which we get fat soluble vitamins into our dogs.

humans who eat offal can get mis readings on their blood panels.

people who take certain vitamins will influence their blood panels.

since ruby gets liver a few times a week, next time you test her, let her not have any organ meat for a week or two prior to testing. and stop all oils and supps a week prior to testing.

just because she fasted before the testing.....doesn't mean there isn't stuff floating around her blood...since it's all fat soluble.

her liver can be just fine....and i'm betting it is.


----------



## Kat (Jul 12, 2011)

Thats a good suggestion Re, because she does get her entire 10% of liver on Sunday and Monday since she is fully transitioned now. 

Luckily, my sister is going to the States this weekend, so she is stopping at the Vitamin Shoppe to pick me up more of the primal defense ultra so I have it on hand. It is wayyy to expensive to order it online with the international fees and duty taxes.


----------



## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

did you make a typo or did you meant 5% liver?

the guideline is usually 5% liver and 5% other organ type....


----------



## Kat (Jul 12, 2011)

Oops ya sorry! 5% lol. 2.8 oz of liver a week, and eventually 2.8 oz of kidney a week. (5.6 oz a week is the total 10% organ amount for Ruby).

And then I split the 2.8 oz of liver between Sunday and Monday dinner time because thats when she gets her bone in chicken.


----------



## Kat (Jul 12, 2011)

From all the beef balls Ruby has been getting, she went from 16.6 pounds to 17.6 pounds :\ And I just discovered my mom has secretly been giving Ruby treats behind my back yet again (the benny bully liver). Guess I will have to increase her walking time at night to get her to lose that 1 pound. 

I dont get it though, because of the beef balls, sometimes she only gets 3.5 oz per meal instead of 4 oz. Is beef known for making dogs gain weight faster? Before the detox I didnt feed beef because it was a pain in the butt to intro for Ruby, she wasnt able to handle large amounts of it, so she only got 2 ounces a week. But with the detox she was getting .50 oz - 1 oz per day. Maybe I will switch to alternating between ground chicken and ground beef...


----------



## Kat (Jul 12, 2011)

Also, since going to the vet on Tuesday, Ruby has had good poos but there have been 3 that were pudding poos. I dont know if its from the stress of the visit or if she caught something, but the first pudding poo wednesday, and then friday this morning she had 2 pudding poos and she keeps going back to the pee pad so i think she might have another one later on today.

Should I do 3 drops of GSE for 1 week to get rid of anything she might have caught? Or will the probiotic and colostrum take care of it


----------



## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

her diet should include beef.....be it ground or not....she needs beef.

when we put bubba on a diet, we increased his exercise whilst also decreasing his food. i tried chicken with him, since it's a gentler protein, calorie wise, but he doesn't do well with chicken. makes him all itchy.

he went from 5 1/2 - 6 ounces daily down to 4 3/4 to 5 ounces....and he's back on beef....and pork and any other red meat i can find.

his exercise, however went up from a mile to two miles and he's looking pretty good these days. 

he has a stockier build than ruby.....with his trucker chest.....so him weighing 20 to 21 lbs is good on him.
those snacks...hmmm...

i'd not give her anything but what you're giving her and tie your mum's hands behind her back.


----------



## Kat (Jul 12, 2011)

Liz, Re posted a helpful link on my FB page. Natural approach to elevated liver enzymes and liver failure in dogs - Dr. Dobias Healing Solutions

One of the suggestions for proper liver function was to supplement with chlorophyll for 1 month after a liver detox. It sounds like a good idea, but I wouldnt do it if you didnt think it was lol. 

I found this supplement online from a Canadian website : Ergogenics Liquid Whole Greens 500mL [14183] - $25.30 : Healthy Planet Canada, Canada's Vitamins, Body Building Supplements, Health Food Store

It has more than just the chlorophyll, but it looks like a good product. Thoughts/suggestions?

ETA - also the site says chamomille flowers have a positive effect on the liver. I have loose organic chamomille tea I bought for Ruby to clean her with after long walks to take off any potential allergens she might come in contact with. Could I brew some of the tea for her to actually drink too?

The site also suggests to reduce fat intake. Ruby gets about .30-.50 oz of fat in each meal. Should I reduce it a bit? She gets less fat when she has her bone-in chicken 4x a week.


----------



## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

now, kat, you left out WHY i posted it to you....on FB..LOL

and i'm truly laughing.


----------



## Kat (Jul 12, 2011)

Oh sorry Re, I know you posted it just for me to read about how its normal for raw fed dogs to have elevated ALT because the tests are made for kibble fed dogs. I was just curious if it would be a good idea to try any of the other stuff the link suggested.


----------



## Nana52 (Apr 28, 2012)

That was an interesting article by Dr. Dobias. Wish I could print it to show my vet, but can't seem to do it (must be copywrite or something?) Anywho, I see that he says alk phos doesn't have great practical use in liver function evaluation. That's the number that was Extremely High on Kody; I'm sure the phenobarbital and the pancreas "inflammation" was largely responsible. I also see that he recommends lower fat meats (for the duration of the liver cleanse) and says to avoid bison (among others). I always thought bison was relatively lean (maybe just in comparison to ground beef). Not that I have any bison to feed mine. I'm just thinking out loud, so to speak.

It would be nice, wouldn't it, if "they" had a whole nother set of "normals" for raw fed dogs. Yeah, I'm sure that's going to happen any day now.


----------



## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

Kat said:


> Oh sorry Re, I know you posted it just for me to read about how its normal for raw fed dogs to have elevated ALT because the tests are made for kibble fed dogs. I was just curious if it would be a good idea to try any of the other stuff the link suggested.


i was teasing you. 

it's a pretty good article. glad you shared it.


----------



## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

Nana52 said:


> That was an interesting article by Dr. Dobias. Wish I could print it to show my vet, but can't seem to do it (must be copywrite or something?) Anywho, I see that he says alk phos doesn't have great practical use in liver function evaluation. That's the number that was Extremely High on Kody; I'm sure the phenobarbital and the pancreas "inflammation" was largely responsible. I also see that he recommends lower fat meats (for the duration of the liver cleanse) and says to avoid bison (among others). I always thought bison was relatively lean (maybe just in comparison to ground beef). Not that I have any bison to feed mine. I'm just thinking out loud, so to speak.
> 
> It would be nice, wouldn't it, if "they" had a whole nother set of "normals" for raw fed dogs. Yeah, I'm sure that's going to happen any day now.


i read articles written by many different people, nana....i try to take from each article that which makes sense to me.

not everything written by everybody makes sense..if that makes sense LOL..

and i am just now learning how, after seven years of study, to separate the wheat from the chaff.


----------



## Nana52 (Apr 28, 2012)

magicre said:


> i read articles written by many different people, nana....i try to take from each article that which makes sense to me.
> 
> not everything written by everybody makes sense..if that makes sense LOL..
> 
> and i am just now learning how, after seven years of study, to separate the wheat from the chaff.


Yeah, wheat from chaff. I'm trying to get there myself. It's a work in progress.

I read another article by this same guy about pancreatitis. He said he feels that is often misdiagnosed, because raw fed dogs just naturally have a higher level of enzymes in their system and lab values are geared toward kibble fed dogs.... not an exact quote but in other words. I emailed the link for that article to my "good" vet, so we can discuss it the next time we see her.


----------



## Kat (Jul 12, 2011)

I am going to share this article with my vet too.


----------

