# Docking / Cropping



## SPS (Sep 14, 2008)

How do you all feel about docking tails/cropping ears? I don't want this to get nasty or turn into a giant debate, I really am just curious. I asked this question on another forum and the overwhelming response was that it's fine to do both to any dog, especially if it conforms to breed standard--whether or not the dog is a show dog or working dog.

I kind of feel that if your dog is not a working dog or a show dog, there's not a HUGE need for it to be cropped/docked except for that cosmetic reason, and honestly cropping is almost always cosmetic. and to me, that's not a good reason to put my dog through any amount of pain.

However, I DO understand that some people do want that, and that's their own business. I'm not bashing anyone or trying to start something, it's just a curiousity.

So please like I said nobody get nasty! I know there are people with strong feelings about this and I'm not trying to push buttons.


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## Rexandbaby (Aug 4, 2008)

I don't like the idea at all. But our JRT had her tail done before I ever saw her, and I think that little stub is cute. But if I ever get another I will request that the tail be left alone.


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## RawFedDogs (Jun 16, 2008)

SPS said:


> How do you all feel about docking tails/cropping ears?


The only reason a person would have this done to their dog is for their own ego.


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## Apdfranklin (Jun 23, 2008)

I personally don't see any reason to. Unless there is some safety concern or something I would never have it done.


SPS said:


> How do you all feel about docking tails/cropping ears? I don't want this to get nasty or turn into a giant debate, I really am just curious. I asked this question on another forum and the overwhelming response was that it's fine to do both to any dog, especially if it conforms to breed standard--whether or not the dog is a show dog or working dog.
> 
> I kind of feel that if your dog is not a working dog or a show dog, there's not a HUGE need for it to be cropped/docked except for that cosmetic reason, and honestly cropping is almost always cosmetic. and to me, that's not a good reason to put my dog through any amount of pain.
> 
> ...


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## BoxerMommie (Jun 26, 2008)

Personally I like it on Boxers. Our puppy's tail was docked but that was done before we even knew the breeder (it's done at only a few days old). We chose not to get his ears done since we're not showing him, it's a pain in the tush, doesn't always come out right, and many more reasons so we didn't do it, but personally with some breeds that is just part of what makes them that breed as that is what has always been done (ie tail docking). I wouldn't dock the tail of a 4 month old puppy, but I see no issues doing it at just a few days old.


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## danesandhorses (Sep 14, 2008)

When my parents got there 1st Dane they got his ears cropped. He always had sore ears after that and my parents felt terrible. Since then we have both had many Danes and havent gotten there ears done. Over seas they dont crop any of the show Danes ears. In the states I still see over 50% cropped at the shows. I also see alot of bad crop jobs and it realy ruins a pretty head.


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## Oz'sMommy (Sep 9, 2008)

personally i wouldn't do it. even if it was a dog breed that owners usually had altered to fit the standard. i grew up with a pit/dane mix and his ears and tail were never docked.

even right now my oz has dew claws that some tell me to remove because it "looks cleaner" but he uses the front ones as thumbs to hold his bone or chew toys.


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## domari (Jun 17, 2008)

I say NO to docking and cropping!!! If there was a way to ban docking and cropping in this country I would do it in a heartbeat. It's illegal in other countries and I'd make it illegal here as well if I could. 

As I mentioned in other threads, my mom bred Dobermans when I was a kid. She also had Schnauzers and her best friend bred Poodles. They used to dock the puppies tails at home and I thought it was so stupid to cut the perfectly good tails off for no good reason. They had another breeder friend who cropped the ears. They complained how the vets didn't know how to cut the ears to the proper shape, so breeders did their own ears. I vowed back then to never ever own a breed that required ear cropping or tail docking, and to this day all the dogs I've ever had as an adult have had long tails and natural ears. 

I don't think it's necessary to mutilate their bodies for cosmetic reasons. I don't believe in cosmetic surgery for humans either, so why do it to animals?? Animals don't care what they look like. Are humans that vain that they need do do this to their pets??

Even show dogs don't need short ears or tails in other countries and certainly they don't need to be hacked off to be a perfect specimen of the breed. Judges should be looking for genetic breed standards such as body type, bone structure, head shape, coat, etc. Not the way someone cuts off the ears and tails. If the world's best Doberman was in Australia, why should it be disqualified in a US show ring? Just because the AKC judges here think a perfect Doberman should have pointy ears?? That's dumb. 

Other countries show dogs without docking and cropping and the people in the US need learn to see the beauty in animals just the way nature intended them to be. 

(ok, rant off)










Mr T says NO to docking and cropping!


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## miss sophie (Sep 17, 2008)

Do you have dew claws removed?


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## rockymtsweetie82 (Jul 24, 2008)

Neither of my dogs have their dew claws done, their tales are natural, and their ears are natural as well. I prefer them to be like this. =D


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## domari (Jun 17, 2008)

miss sophie said:


> Do you have dew claws removed?


Nope, never needed to.


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## Guest (Sep 19, 2008)

Just as a side note, it's not required for Dobes to be cropped in this country, and several natural eared Dobes have finished their CH successfully. It's not the norm, and they may take longer to finish than one who is cropped, but it is possible.


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## domari (Jun 17, 2008)

LPacker79 said:


> Just as a side note, it's not required for Dobes to be cropped in this country, and several natural eared Dobes have finished their CH successfully. It's not the norm, and they may take longer to finish than one who is cropped, but it is possible.


True, but a lot of the "old school" breeders like my mom, still want to see them with pointy ears. I get into heated discussions with her it on a regular basis about this, and she won't budge one bit. 
I'm sure a lot of the judges (who are also usually older) think the same way she does, and when making a decision between two dogs in the ring will pick the one with the cropped ears over the natural ears.


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## rannmiller (Jun 27, 2008)

domari said:


> I'm sure a lot of the judges (who are also usually older) think the same way she does, and when making a decision between two dogs in the ring will pick the one with the cropped ears over the natural ears.


Sounds like we need to get some new judges in those show rings!


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## domari (Jun 17, 2008)

rannmiller said:


> Sounds like we need to get some new judges in those show rings!


Eventually all the younger breeders will grow old and replace the judges out there now. Maybe they can also get dogs back to their natural body shapes too and the AKC will stress genetic health and not encourage dogs that are manmade genetic freaks with distorted body structure that can't eat, breathe or reproduce naturally. 

Well... I can dream can't I?


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## Rexandbaby (Aug 4, 2008)

:tongue: Oh, someday!


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## rannmiller (Jun 27, 2008)

Couldn't have said it better myself!


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## Lovemydogs (Jul 21, 2008)

I have a Pure-bred Cocker. She has her tail and I love it.


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## pgnation (Sep 21, 2008)

Well I myself consider the Crop and Dock of my dog as something nice.
I don't consider it an EGO booster by any means, yes something unique, but not really when mostly all the Dobermans do it.
I also don't consider my dog a genetic freak either. More like a genetic fantasy.

I know I'm really the only one that's for this and such, but I think that when people talk about it being "animal cruelty" ... there's just so many other things I've seen and fixed within our rescue group that makes a docked tail and cropped ears look like nothing.

And someone posted about "many dobermans with natural ears get their CH" ... I would really like to see such a percentage on this. I've shown Dobermans for about 2 years. Dobermans are one of the most political show dogs for conformation, and I have not seen more than 5 different dobermans in the breed ring with natural ears, none champions.

I do feel that you should have a professional do something like this though. Not meaning to hate any local vets nor my own, but there are some people that are much more qualified than others. My breeder (in Chicago) pays for a specialist in Doberman ears to come from Montana for her puppies. She knows what she's doing, and the breeder does as well.

Now I don't know if I would actually crop a puppies ears of my own if I ever got a puppy, but generally a GOOD breeder will dock and crop their puppies before they sell them. (my breeder and many others I know sell their puppies at 12 weeks, to make sure the ears, tail, and everything else with the puppy is healthy and good)

I know the person didn't want it nasty, but I hate things that I've had for so long and also something that I own, especially something as great as my dog. I've trained, shown, and live with my dog and spoil her rotten...
But really, every dog is different, wheter they're docked or cropped or not. I've had rescue dogs with either docked, or cropped, or neither. They've all got their own personality that you've got to love in their own way...


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## domari (Jun 17, 2008)

pgnation said:


> Well I myself consider the Crop and Dock of my dog as something nice.
> I don't consider it an EGO booster by any means, yes something unique, but not really when mostly all the Dobermans do it.
> I also don't consider my dog a genetic freak either. More like a genetic fantasy.
> 
> ...


Your dog might be a genetic fantasy, which I think is great, but the way the ears and tail are cut has nothing to do with genetics. 

You're right, there are a lot of worse things done to animals which are cruel, but that doesn't justify cropping and docking as being less than cruel. 

As I mentioned before, uncropped Dobermans might be perfect specimens of the breed, but without the ears done to perfection, the odds of them winning are slim in the US. I do have a big problem with this and I hope the opinions will change about what looks good and what doesn't. 

Since you also rescue and admit that ears and tails have nothing to do with personality, maybe you can learn to see the beauty in Dobermans as nature intended. They are wonderful, intelligent, beautiful dogs, I know, I grew up with many of them. But I know that the pointy ears and short tails wasn't their main quality, it was their personality and devotion to us. If they all had floppy ears and long tails, they'd still be great dogs.


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## RawFedDogs (Jun 16, 2008)

pgnation said:


> I don't consider it an EGO booster by any means, yes something unique, but not really when mostly all the Dobermans do it.


OK, so you are docking and cropping because the dog likes it?



> ...there's just so many other things I've seen and fixed within our rescue group that makes a docked tail and cropped ears look like nothing.


Dogs communicate by body language. The tail is a big part of that body language. When you cut his tail off it is analogous to cutting a human's tongue off or removing his vocal chords. But I guess thats OK if he looks better.


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## chowder (Sep 7, 2008)

When I was working as a vet tech, none of the younger vets would crop ears. Only the older vet would still do it. He had a chart that measured how much ear you sliced off for each breed. If you ever had to assist in an ear cropping, and saw how much ear was sliced off and tossed in the trash can, then watched the puppy wake up and start shaking his head furiously because his ears hurt and the bandages were bothering him so much, you might think twice about cropping ears. The worst was when they shook so hard the bandages came off and you found a puppy sitting in his cage covered in blood because freshly cropped ears bleed like the dickens. It all might not matter in a few years because very few younger vets will crop ears anymore so it will be harder and harder to find anyone left who will do the procedure. It is illegal in Europe and is in some parts of the US already (certain cities if I can recall correctly). Everyone should have to hold the ear and watch it done once....they will change their minds. As far as docking the tails.....the puppies are awake, and they do cry.....no matter what anyone says. They get a little bit of local anethestic but they cry..


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## Rexandbaby (Aug 4, 2008)

Chowder, that makes my heart hurt. I don't want to see this happen, I don't want to be a part of this ever again. My JRT, when I got her, she already had her tail done, but I would not ask her to do it again.


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## rannmiller (Jun 27, 2008)

Chowder I agree, that was a pretty sad, heart felt post. Made me want to cry, especially since my mom seriously considered having my lab/pit's tail docked when she was younger because it was lethally painful when she'd wag it against you. I don't think a vet would've done it on a dog that old anyway, but still it made me want to cry just thinking about cutting off her tail just because she's happy enough to wag it.


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## RawFedDogs (Jun 16, 2008)

rannmiller said:


> my mom seriously considered having my lab/pit's tail docked when she was younger because it was lethally painful when she'd wag it against you.


You think THAT is painful? You should get slapped in the face with a Great Dane tail. LOL It can happen around here if you let your guard down when a happy dog is around. Sitting in a chair, you can get your face slapped pretty hard.


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## Luvmypups (Jul 3, 2008)

My boxers and dane have floppy ears, but they are all rescues, got them that way. My last Dane had cropped ears hers were done before I got her, and I must say I loved the look, she looked so Regal. I have always rescued but if I was to ever get a puppy I would crop.

Elaine


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## Yorkie Mom (Aug 25, 2008)

All of my dogs have docked tails, but that was done by the breeder. It has to be done before they are three days old, otherwise it is considered animal cruelty. It's supposed to be the equivalent of a circumcision on baby boys. I have seen circumcisions (I was a nurse) and that little boy cries like no other. But most parents do this to their sons, for cosmetic reasons. 
All of my dogs had their dew claws removed, but if they aren't removed the claws can get caught and tear. Then Pooches is likely to bleed out. 
As far as cropping ears, I think that's harsh. My dogs ears are erect, because when they were puppies I shaved the hair off the ears and taped them. Sort of trained them to stand. I think this may be breed specific to yorkies, don't know if other breeds could be taped.
But that's just my opinion. My dogs are show/breeding dogs, so I would prefer that they mirror the breed standard.


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## domari (Jun 17, 2008)

chowder said:


> When I was working as a vet tech, none of the younger vets would crop ears. Only the older vet would still do it. He had a chart that measured how much ear you sliced off for each breed. If you ever had to assist in an ear cropping, and saw how much ear was sliced off and tossed in the trash can, then watched the puppy wake up and start shaking his head furiously because his ears hurt and the bandages were bothering him so much, you might think twice about cropping ears. The worst was when they shook so hard the bandages came off and you found a puppy sitting in his cage covered in blood because freshly cropped ears bleed like the dickens. It all might not matter in a few years because very few younger vets will crop ears anymore so it will be harder and harder to find anyone left who will do the procedure. It is illegal in Europe and is in some parts of the US already (certain cities if I can recall correctly). Everyone should have to hold the ear and watch it done once....they will change their minds. As far as docking the tails.....the puppies are awake, and they do cry.....no matter what anyone says. They get a little bit of local anethestic but they cry..



That's what I used to watch when I was young and why I am so opposed to it now. My mom cut the tails at home. She's a nurse and was very careful about being clean about it and making sure the puppies didn't bleed or get infected. She'd feel for the joints in their tail, then snip the tail off with one swift cut. No anesthetic, she said it only hurt for a second (yea sure, how does she know??). The puppies would yelp and whine, the mother dog would be having a fit because her puppies were being taken away and hurt. 

She had the ears done by another breeder, who used ether to knock the pups out. The woman would cut the ears and wrap them quickly before the pups woke up. Ether is nasty stuff, and the smell was enough to make you sick. When the pups would play together they'd scratch and chew on each other, and mother dogs would try to clean the wounds. They had big scabs on the edge of their ears which they'd scratch at. 

The pups were never given any painkillers after this was done. 

Nobody could ever say it's not painful, impossible. We've all had wounds over the years, many of us have had stitches or surgery at some time during our lives. I know what wounds feel like as they are healing, it's not comfortable at all. At least when us humans have large skin wounds that take a few weeks to heal, we are given painkillers or something to ease the discomfort. Do people really think that dogs don't feel pain?? Is their skin and nerve endings less sensitive than ours?

I can't imagine what it would feel like to have my fingers cut off between the joints, or the outer edge of my ears cut off, so why is it ok to do it to dogs???


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## domari (Jun 17, 2008)

Luvmypups said:


> My boxers and dane have floppy ears, but they are all rescues, got them that way. My last Dane had cropped ears hers were done before I got her, and I must say I loved the look, she looked so Regal. I have always rescued but if I was to ever get a puppy I would crop.
> 
> Elaine


I don't understand the term "regal" when talking about cropped ears, my mom has used the same word. The word regal is usually used to mean royalty or superiority. 

Does it mean that natural ears mean lower class or inferior in some way?

Can someone have a "regal" looking dog with floppy ears? Do Schnauzers with cropped ears look more "regal" than a Fox Terrier? 

I just never figured out the attraction, if you like pointy eared dogs, why not get a breed who's ears are naturally that way?


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## domari (Jun 17, 2008)

Yorkie Mom said:


> All of my dogs have docked tails, but that was done by the breeder. It has to be done before they are three days old, otherwise it is considered animal cruelty. It's supposed to be the equivalent of a circumcision on baby boys. I have seen circumcisions (I was a nurse) and that little boy cries like no other. But most parents do this to their sons, for cosmetic reasons.
> All of my dogs had their dew claws removed, but if they aren't removed the claws can get caught and tear. Then Pooches is likely to bleed out.
> As far as cropping ears, I think that's harsh. My dogs ears are erect, because when they were puppies I shaved the hair off the ears and taped them. Sort of trained them to stand. I think this may be breed specific to yorkies, don't know if other breeds could be taped.
> But that's just my opinion. My dogs are show/breeding dogs, so I would prefer that they mirror the breed standard.



I would prefer the breed standards change to allow dogs to be shown as nature intended.


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## Rexandbaby (Aug 4, 2008)

I agree it is time to change the breed standards!


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## rannmiller (Jun 27, 2008)

And circumcision isn't just cosmetic, it's for health reasons too. Men who are circumcised are 60% less likely to get prostate cancer than uncircumcised men. 

If there was some sort of medical health reason for docking and cropping like there is for dew claw removal in some breeds, then I could understand it. Otherwise, it's purely torture for vanity. 

I agree, it is time to stop advocating for looks that are unnatural. How can it possibly be a "breed standard" if that's not how the dog is naturally intended to look? If you had to cosmetically alter the dog to get there? 

Stop me if I'm wrong but aren't cosmetic surgeries generally a disqualifying point in a lot of breeds? Like hair plugs in Chinese Cresteds and fake testicles on neutered males? 

Seriously, if you're going to try to show a dog based on how great its breeding quality is, shouldn't that dog be allowed to look the way it was intended to? 

So many questions, so much hypocrisy.


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## rannmiller (Jun 27, 2008)

It reminds me of plastic surgery and super models. So many people look at super models and say, "Hey, she's beautiful, but in that super fake sort of way that she had to have a lot of plastic surgery and starver and torture herself to look that way." 

Yes, dogs may look "better" or more "regal" with their ears cropped and tails docked in some people's opinions, but you wouldn't do it to a dog the same reason you wouldn't do it to yourself. 

Some people wish they could look better, and may consider the option of plastic surgery to accomplish that, but many don't. Why? Maybe because they hear that in order to get a nose job, the surgeon breaks your nose. Who the heck wants to pay to have their nose purposely broken? That hurts, your face bruises and swells, you look awful and did i mention IT HURTS! And then afterwards you have this wonderful sense of pride that you cheated to look like you do. No offense to anyone who's had plastic surgery done.


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## BabyHusky (Jul 21, 2008)

Plastic surgery has always been a touchy debatable subject. In my opinion, its up to people. If you want to pay for plastic surgery, go for it, just make sure you won't regret it. 

I'm completely against docking/cropping but it comes to a point where "its my dog not yours." unfortunately dog's cant speak for themselves and as their owners, we tend to make all their decisions for them. honestly, as much as i hope these "standards" go away, theres other bigger issues, like what they eat. dog food's so important but i guess i can't expect a world that eats mcdonalds to understand that nutrition is essential. Its sad...everytime i see an overweight child, I just want to shake their parents and tell them to wake up. yes there are the few cases of genetics, but hey...it can always be worked out...there should not be so many fat 7 year olds, take the candy and remote controller away, and toss them outside with a carrot stick and a bike or something. 

I think its going to be a looong while before society changes their views. (sorry for ranting...weight's such a huge issue in this state, whether over or under)


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## rannmiller (Jun 27, 2008)

BabyHusky said:


> there should not be so many fat 7 year olds, take the candy and remote controller away, and toss them outside with a carrot stick and a bike or something.


Haha yeah I was a fat kid and that's pretty much what it took for me to lose weight, that and my mom finally let me get a dog and forced me to walk her every single day. That will do wonders for your physical and mental health!

The answer to obesity in children: get them a dog they have to walk daily. 

Sorry to get off topic.


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## Yorkie Mom (Aug 25, 2008)

In Europe they don't have docking and cropping. It's actually illegal. Start a petition and send it to the AKC and your Congressman. What could it hurt to try? I don't do any of that to my dogs, except removing the dew claws. But that it for safety reasons. I didn't dock their tails, they came to me that way. Anyway, start the petition and let's see what we can do!


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## domari (Jun 17, 2008)

rannmiller said:


> And circumcision isn't just cosmetic, it's for health reasons too. Men who are circumcised are 60% less likely to get prostate cancer than uncircumcised men.
> 
> If there was some sort of medical health reason for docking and cropping like there is for dew claw removal in some breeds, then I could understand it. Otherwise, it's purely torture for vanity.
> 
> ...


Circumcision is controversial, the stats on cancer are not that accurate. If uncirc'd men got cancer, most of Europe and other countries would be dying of it. It's still disputed amongst doctors, and the trends change back and forth. In the US many parents use the so called "medical" reasons to justify their decision to have their son's circ'd because really they want it done for cosmetic reasons. In other countries it's a non issue. 

Cosmetic surgery is disqualifying in the show ring, neuticals can't be used because AKC show dogs must all be intact.


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## domari (Jun 17, 2008)

Yorkie Mom said:


> In Europe they don't have docking and cropping. It's actually illegal. Start a petition and send it to the AKC and your Congressman. What could it hurt to try? I don't do any of that to my dogs, except removing the dew claws. But that it for safety reasons. I didn't dock their tails, they came to me that way. Anyway, start the petition and let's see what we can do!


There are a few petitions out there, groups have been trying to outlaw this for a while. In the UK they are getting much farther than 

But the AKC and breeders use their power and money to fight it. 

http://www.bloomington.in.us/~stopcrop/problem2.html

http://www.animallaw.info/articles/dduscroppingdocking.htm


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## Yorkie Mom (Aug 25, 2008)

Well I breed my dogs, and would rather not to have to dock their tails. As far as money, I usually lose money when breeding. I can barely pay for gas, much less stop a national petition.
The reason a dog has to be intact to be shown is because the purpose of showing is to show breeding quality. That's why all of the males get shown, their pups will sell for more if they are Champion Sired.
I do agree about the circ. It is done because it is "better looking" or easier to clean. Not really any different and all the studies that have been done are circumstantial at best. And that's coming from a medical professional 
Regardless, I'd prefer if the breeds didn't have to be altered at all. It would be so much easier that way... Except maybe on Yorkies... with all that long hair... could you imagine all the poo that would get stuck?? Gross.. haha there's a health reason! Lol j/k


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## rannmiller (Jun 27, 2008)

domari said:


> Cosmetic surgery is disqualifying in the show ring,


My point exactly, yet docking and cropping isn't considered cosmetic?


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## dacia (Oct 15, 2008)

*Ear Cropping & Tail Docking Dogs*

Ear cropping is a painful, disfiguring process for dogs, it is a senseless surgery. Ear cropping and tail docking in dogs for cosmetic reasons are whether medically indicated nor of benefit to the patient. These procedures are accompanied by inherent risks of anesthesia, blood loss, and infection. Ear cropping is a cruel process that has to be stopped! It is ridiculous to perform medically unnecessary ear cropping procedures that simply perpetuate the image that dogs are fashion accessories.Many dogs have gone absolutely head crazy and developed lifelong seizures, or an instant awareness to touches after ear cropping. 
--------------------------------
Dacia

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