# Thinking about banning pitbulls??



## Celt (Dec 27, 2010)

Today, I went to a school debate competiton, and one of the winners' subjects was on the issue of banning Pit Bulls. I' m seriously hoping this boy (or anyone else) doesn't ever take his "speech" and use it for real and that no one else gets his idea because I could easily see the loss of this breed. The thing that was "scariest" was that he used Pit Bull "lovers" to support his arguement and it worked. He had me rethinking whether or not Pit Bulls were "safe". A few comments that he use were: Taking a pit bull to a dog park is setting it up for failure because you can never know when it will become dog aggressive; a pitbull owner needs to own a break stick and know how to use it because you probably will need it; You must be able and willing to crate and rotate because your puppy could become dog aggressive even if raised and socialized with other dogs because Pitbulls are bred to be dog aggressive. His main point was that if supporters, breeders and owners are making such statements then it is obvious that these dogs are not "safe" and should not be allowed in areas in which they may come in contact with other dogs. He was very articulate, charismatic, and vey assured of his argument and able to respond quickly and logically to his opponent. He never brought up the breed being human aggressive, though he did point out how people could be injured trying to protect their pet or breaking up a fight when his opponent argued that the dogs were not people aggressive. Like I said, this boy won his age division and had me, who thinks banning dogs because of breed rather "silly", seriously thinking about his argument. I can't imagine how the general public would react to such a well developed "speech". Actually, I don't want to think about it.


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## kevin bradley (Aug 9, 2009)

I struggle with the aspect of "Pits being dog agressive." Frankly I don't really care. Are they? Hell, I don't know. Maybe. I walk my Dogs every day and there are a number of Dog breeds that show some sign of agression towards us when we walk. I recently had a Mixed breed(not anything Pit or Bully breed from what I could tell) come flying out of nowhere, ready to do immediate battle with my guys. 

I also had a little Dog(maybe Chiuaua or Miniature something) run ACROSS the street to come after me while I was walking home from work. He then tried snapping at my legs while I walked... it was funny because this Dog was no more than 5 lbs. But very, very agressive. He kept coming after me down the street. The owner came out of the house and yelled for the Dog to come home... I could only think she was lucky I am a Dog lover because someone else would have kicked that Dog and probably hurt it. 

Another point........ almost all Dogs are agressive towards CATS. Should all Dogs be banned? 

Do Pits have some added agression towards other Dogs? Like I said, its probably debatable and a possibility. I've read enough Pit experts say they do have SOME added agression outside of other breeds. 

But I don't care. The beauty of Pits, their energy, athleticism, zest for life, supreme loyalty to their owners and real love makes up for any bit of Dog agression they might have. In the RIGHT home, Pits are an amazing breed and should be honored for their attributes.


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## Boxers&Pom's Mom (Jan 17, 2011)

It is a theme, that always got me uncomfortable. I love all dogs and I never been afraid of any dog. I may be crazy, but since i were a little girl I believe that I am able to communicate with them. My family sometimes get upset with me, because I am fair less to dogs. I LOVE Pit bulls and have seeing a good pit bull and a really aggressive one. Of course, the nice one were raised with love and the other one in a crate in the back yard. 
If I were living alone with no children, specially with the children are your grandchildren or your neighbors children, probably I will get a Pit Bull, but I will never take the chance to expose other people to it. 
Maybe if you raise a puppy is different, but getting one already adult. I don't know.


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## kevin bradley (Aug 9, 2009)

the problem I have with Pits is this and its not going to come across as politically correct.

MANY Pits grow up in such abhorent conditions in our inner cities, on chains for their lives...fought, abused, etc...

HOW on EARTH could we come to the conclusion for CERTAIN that the breed is systemically agressive? Christ, if you treated Golden Retrievers the way you do Pits, we would probably be discussing Golden's as the "problem."


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## Squeeji (Feb 17, 2012)

kevin bradley said:


> the problem I have with Pits is this and its not going to come across as politically correct.
> 
> MANY Pits grow up in such abhorent conditions in our inner cities, on chains for their lives...fought, abused, etc...
> 
> HOW on EARTH could we come to the conclusion for CERTAIN that the breed is systemically agressive? Christ, if you treated Golden Retrievers the way you do Pits, we would probably be discussing Golden's as the "problem."


Where I grew up (and worked Animal Control for a bit) the issue was never aggressive pits, but rather aggressive labs, we hated to have to deal with labs that people kept locked up in a 6x3 or smaller kennel their entire lives, those dogs were just terrible. To this day, I have a particular leeriness towards labs that isn't the breed's fault. Of course this was a rural community...so leave the inner cities out of this, crappy owners that make bad dogs out of good breeds can be found EVERYWHERE.


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## kevin bradley (Aug 9, 2009)

Squeeji said:


> Where I grew up (and worked Animal Control for a bit) the issue was never aggressive pits, but rather aggressive labs, we hated to have to deal with labs that people kept locked up in a 6x3 or smaller kennel their entire lives, those dogs were just terrible. To this day, I have a particular leeriness towards labs that isn't the breed's fault. Of course this was a rural community...so leave the inner cities out of this, crappy owners that make bad dogs out of good breeds can be found EVERYWHERE.


true statement. However, I guess I'd have to disagree on the inner city part... certainly it IS the owners fault. However, the abuse of Pits, the fighting, etc... is OUT OF CONTROL in almost every large inner city in this country. 

But we're probably debating semantics... inner city or owner, etc... Agreed, it is definitely the OWNER. Maybe there are just way more of them in our large cities.


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## GoingPostal (Sep 5, 2011)

The thing is you can find that same info on just about any reputable page about breeds from jack russells to huskies. People forget that these are animals and not furry humans. Several of my ferrets tried to kill kittens in their previous home even though they lived with the cats, my newest ferret killed a parrot in his last home, my cat will kill and eat mice yet no one would label them vicious or unsafe. A dog kills a cat or another dog and they often get put down. 

On one hand I do think the "pit bull dogma" is a little overboard but seeing the huge amount of these dogs dumped and killed for completely predictable behavior I think it's good that it's out there. Every single one of my dogs was acquired as an adult, I don't know their breeding or background and they meet tons of strangers all the time, they live in my house with multiple other species and I had never owned a dog before getting these. We have had a few scuffles, usually over food or excitement and things can get serious fast but I have to say I'm very impressed by my dogs bite inhibition in times of fight/stress/seizure. They are very stable, trainable and eager to please, would I take them to a dog park? No, but I wouldn't take any breed.


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## Squeeji (Feb 17, 2012)

kevin bradley said:


> true statement. However, I guess I'd have to disagree on the inner city part... certainly it IS the owners fault. However, the abuse of Pits, the fighting, etc... is OUT OF CONTROL in almost every large inner city in this country.
> 
> But we're probably debating semantics... inner city or owner, etc... Agreed, it is definitely the OWNER. Maybe there are just way more of them in our large cities.


I agree there, dog fighting and people with the mentality that dogs are just things- that's a problem out in rural communities as much as urban communities. But sadly pits get the worst wrap because the media is gunning for them (and simply can't recognize what a pitbull is).


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## twotonelover (Jan 10, 2011)

Squeeji said:


> I agree there, dog fighting and people with the mentality that dogs are just things- that's a problem out in rural communities as much as urban communities. But sadly pits get the worst wrap because the media is gunning for them (and simply can't recognize what a pitbull is).


Just to interject something funny into this thread, I do have a story about how ignorant people are as to what a pitbull is. A woman came to our play yard at the shelter and asked if this dog was part pitbull. He is an approx 10lb chihuahua mix. Apparently any dog that is brindle must be part pitbull haha


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## GoingPostal (Sep 5, 2011)

LMAO!^ I got called last year about a "pit pup" in the shelter, go down there and it looks like a damn hound dog or dane mix, nothing bully about it in the least but brindle so clearly must be a pit bull. Yet most people that see my 3 think our dogs are boxers for some reason.


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## lauren43 (Feb 6, 2011)

Boxers&Pom's Mom said:


> It is a theme, that always got me uncomfortable. I love all dogs and I never been afraid of any dog. I may be crazy, but since i were a little girl I believe that I am able to communicate with them. My family sometimes get upset with me, because I am fair less to dogs. I LOVE Pit bulls and have seeing a good pit bull and a really aggressive one. Of course, the nice one were raised with love and the other one in a crate in the back yard.
> If I were living alone with no children, specially with the children are your grandchildren or your neighbors children, probably I will get a Pit Bull, but I will never take the chance to expose other people to it.
> Maybe if you raise a puppy is different, but getting one already adult. I don't know.


See this is what scares me. Though I understand where your coming from the second you say your a dog lover but wouldn't get a bully mix because your worried for your grandchildren or the people exposed to it you hurt the breed. 

These dogs are NOT human aggressive by nature but they can be dog aggressive...but the reality is ANY dog can be dog aggressive for that matter any dog can be human aggressive...Today (because I was bored) I spent tons of time on petfinder, I looked at Dobermans, bulldogs, Belgian Malinois many of which had to be placed as the only dog. Rescuing in general is a risk many of these dogs have histories, histories we know nothing about, some of these histories have an effect on a dogs' overall personality some don't. At the end of the day it comes down to the individual dog and what that dog can overcome and how much effort the current owner is willing to put forth...it's not about how a dogs raised (although having a good upbringing helps) its about how the dog reacts to different stimulus positive or negative. There are no guarantees in this life. Owning a dog is pleasure and a privilege that comes with real responsibility. Owning a dog (of any breed) is less dangerous than owning a gun any day of the week yet ppl seem to worry more about the breed of dog (of course this should be a concern considering your lifestyle and what you can handle) they bring home rather than the hand gun stored in the closet (just an FYI I'm pro guns)...

And Caty I totally understand what your saying. Many bully lovers say the worst things about them but any dog purchase or rescue should be educated plain and simple. You wouldn't get a Saint Bernard if you weren't prepared for drool and hair, you wouldn't get a Rottweiler or Doberman without knowing they can be protective of their families and not particularly welcoming to strangers, you wouldn't get a Border Collie and not plan for it's possible herding behaviors, you wouldn't get a husky without knowing about their possible prey drive and sometimes insistent bark...we have purebreds for a reason many of them have traits that ppl are specifically looking for but may also come with some undesirable traits that need to be prepared for.


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## RawPitbulls (Feb 7, 2013)

HAHAHA! Debates just so happen to be my area of expertise. I was in debate club and won in 99% of debates. I could have chewed him up and spit him out (I do not like to sound cocky, but when it comes to my dogs, I don't play). The trick to winning a debate is having VERIFIED information at your fingertips, and being able to spout them off at will. It seriously sounds to me like he was simply using speculation, and not sticking to the facts. Also, if you are not articulate and well spoken, you will lose every time. Anyway, I wrote a letter to the Knoxville City Council not long ago about this situation. I will post it here. It is well written, and is PACKED with VERIFED information. It leaves no room for further argument. It sounds to me like he needs to read this article about breaking dog fights up without getting hurt as well (I am getting pissed). Leerburg | How to Break Up a Dog Fight Without Getting Hurt!


Dear Knoxville City Council,

I respectfully ask you today to not consider a breed specific ordinance. Taken as a whole, pitbulls have proven their stability and canine good citizenry by becoming search and rescue dogs, therapy dogs working inside hospitals, professional herding dogs, and family companions for years. In fact, they used to be called "nanny dogs" as they are so great with children.

Sadly, pitbulls are the most abused, neglected, and persecuted dogs in the United States. A great overall source for learning about pitbulls, Breed Specific Legislation, and dog fighting is savingamericasdog.com: The Leading Saving America Dog Site on the Net.

This isn't just a hot topic in the United States. In Calgary, there is no Breed Specific Legislation and they have the lowest number of dog attacks in twenty-five years. Also, Italy just revoked it's breed ban, stating that the ban had no scientific justification.

Some reasons why BSL doesn't work:

1) New DNA tests prove that visual identification of a dog's breed is usually wrong. A recent article "SHELTER MEDICINE: A COMPARISON OF VISUAL AND DNA IDENTIFICATION OF BREEDS OF DOGS" has proven that visual identification of dogs almost always results in inaccurate breed designations.
http://www.nathanwinograd.com/linked/misbreed.pdf

2) Breed profiling often fails. "Pit bull" is not a specific breed. It is a generic term that describes the American Staffordshire Terrier, Staffordshire Bull Terrier, English Bull Terrier, Dogo Argentino, all Mastiff breeds, and countless others. The physical traits and characteristics of "pit bulls" are shared by approximately forty-five to sixty other breeds.
a. If you would like to see for yourself how hard it is to visually distinguish a pit bull from just a few other breeds, you can test yourself here: Pet Pitbull - Find the Pit Bull
b. On 2/22/09 a "pit bull" was put down in a city with BSL. The dog was identified as a pit bull by Animal Control and was euthanized. The owner was now suing, as the dog was actually an American Bulldog. http://news.cincinnati.com/article/20090222/NEWS0107/902220334
There are many more cases like this happening in areas that decided to enact breed bans or restrictions.
c. Denver has perhaps the most controversial BSL in the nation, and currently three former Denver Animal Control Officers are suing the city to get the ban overturned. Other dog advocacy groups are looking to do the same.

3) It is extremely expensive for communities to enact BSL. There is now a website devoted to help estimate costs of passing BSL in your own community.
Best Friends BDL Fiscal Impact

4) Breed-discriminatory laws compromise public safety by requiring officers to enforce regulation on dogs that may or may not be dangerous instead of investing resources into proven, effective tactics that make the community safer. Resources are shifted away from routine, effective enforcement of laws that have the best chance of making our communities safer: leash laws, dog license laws, spay/neuter laws, and animal fighting laws.

5) A dog is an individual with it's own personality. It should be judged on it's temperament, and not it's appearance.

6) Breed-discriminatory laws cause unintended hardship to responsible owners of friendly dogs that happen to fall within the regulated breed category.

7) Studies show that an interaction of a broad complex of human, canine, and environmental factors contributed to dog bites, regardless of breed. National Canine Research Council.

Instead of considering any type of BSL, I ask you to consider alternative ordinance as listed below. These have passed in some areas, and have been proven o be very effective.

1) Restricting tethering. 25% of all fatal dog attacks involve tethered dogs. Most dog fighters chain their animals.

2) Spay and Neuter programs. The biggest risk factors for dog aggression are irresponsible/cruel dog owners, and dogs that are not spayed/neutered. Studies have shown that more than 70% of bite cases come from animals that are not altered. If a dog is found to be "dangerous", it should be mandated that it be spayed/neutered.

3) Micro-chipping. If a dog is found to be "dangerous", it should be required to be micro-chipped so there is a permanent identification of the dog. Dogs of some breeds are easy to confuse, especially if the owner has multiple dogs of the same breed.

4) Prevent reckless owners from owning dogs. Minnesota prohibits repeat reckless owners of dogs deemed "dangerous" from owning dogs in their state. Illinois prevents convicted felons from owning unsterilized dogs.


Best Friends Animal Society hopes to end discrimination against all dogs and has listed some areas where model legislation has passed. One of those areas is Tacoma, WA and their current, non breed specific legislation regarding dangerous dogs can be found here: City of Tacoma - Barking and Dangerous Dog-

As an owner of breeds targeted by BSL, this issue is very important to me wherever it comes up. I politely ask that you do not pass any legislation based on certain breeds of dogs, and instead consider the alternatives I've supplied.

Thank you for your time.

Jacob Stallings
[email protected]
865-242-2267

Note some organizations that are against BSL:
American Dog Owners Association (ADOA)
American Humane
American Kennel Club (AKC)
American Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals (ASPCA)
American Veterinary Medical Association (AVMA)
American Working Dog Federation (AWDF)
Association of Pet Dog Trainers (APDT)
Best Friends Animal Society (Best Friends Animal Society)
Humane Society of the United States (HSUS)
International Association of Animal Behavior Consultants (IAABC)
International Association of Canine Professionals (IACP)
National Animal Control Association (NACA)
National Animal Interest Alliance (NAIA)
National Association of Dog Obedience Instructors (NADOI)

EAT YOUR HEART OUT LITTLE DEBATE BOY!


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## RawPitbulls (Feb 7, 2013)

twotonelover said:


> Just to interject something funny into this thread, I do have a story about how ignorant people are as to what a pitbull is. A woman came to our play yard at the shelter and asked if this dog was part pitbull. He is an approx 10lb chihuahua mix. Apparently any dog that is brindle must be part pitbull haha


What a ditz


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## nupe (Apr 26, 2011)

RawPitbulls said:


> What a ditz



Its actually kind of scary she could think this chihuahua was part pit bull...ignorance is bliss!! lol


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## RawPitbulls (Feb 7, 2013)

nupe said:


> Its actually kind of scary she could think this chihuahua was part pit bull...ignorance is bliss!! lol



LOL! What are your thoughts on my letter?


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## nupe (Apr 26, 2011)

RawPitbulls said:


> LOL! What are your thoughts on my letter?


excellent job on letter...you had facts and alternatives to BSL....GREAT JOB!!!...Quick story and you touched on it in your letter...i HAD A FRIEND WHO WAS STOPPED BY POLICE HERE IN nyc...and was asked did he have insurance for the so called pit bull he was walking..,,,,,,,,,.here in NYC...you are suppose to have some extra homeowners insurance or some crap if you have a pit bull. Well my friend was like....Pit Bull??...Prove its a Pit bull. The cops just got back in their car and drove off...but first said to him..""keep that animal under control""...mind you he was just walking his dog.....but hey well wrote letter,by you., I just had to tell that quick story, thought you would like it!!


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## Rvent (Apr 15, 2012)

Like BSL? Neither do we. We are helping to keep it from happening in CT - ever. CONNECTICUT RESIDENTS NEEDED. If you do not live in CT, please share this important bill! (you never know if someone you know, knows someone in CT). Thank you.

CT Bill 6311 | Facebook

@RawPitBulls I might just take some excerpt from your letter, if you don't mind of course.. to help make sure this bill passes here


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## woganvonderweidenstrasse (Nov 22, 2012)

My pup has been attacked by jack Russels, border collies, another German Shepherd, a Swiss Shepherd mix and a Rottweiler (technically the Rottie didn't attack, just dominated, but still scared the hell out of me. ) Anyway...pretty much the only dog's he's come into contact with that didn't bite was a Labrador, Shar Pei, Sheltie and..... Pit Bull.


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## sozzle (May 18, 2011)

Excellent letter.

BTW for your interest these breeds of dogs cannot currently be imported into New Zealand:
Brazilian Fila
Dogo Argentino
Japanese Tosa
Perra de presa Canario (had never heard of that one until today)
American Pit Bull Terrier


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## RawPitbulls (Feb 7, 2013)

nupe said:


> excellent job on letter...you had facts and alternatives to BSL....GREAT JOB!!!...Quick story and you touched on it in your letter...i HAD A FRIEND WHO WAS STOPPED BY POLICE HERE IN nyc...and was asked did he have insurance for the so called pit bull he was walking..,,,,,,,,,.here in NYC...you are suppose to have some extra homeowners insurance or some crap if you have a pit bull. Well my friend was like....Pit Bull??...Prove its a Pit bull. The cops just got back in their car and drove off...but first said to him..""keep that animal under control""...mind you he was just walking his dog.....but hey well wrote letter,by you., I just had to tell that quick story, thought you would like it!!


Thanks! That is SO true! It is truly an impossible feat to identify a "pitbull" by looks. I recently had a DNA test done on a dog I was sure was an EBT/AST. As it turns out, the dog is a Dalmatian, Mastiff, and German Shorthaired Pointer (with some St. Bernard and Poodle mixed in there somewhere). This is a dog that would have been targeted for BSL, and yet there is no AST, SBT, APBT, or even BT! At the same time, you have dogs that DO have "pitbull" in them, and since they don't look like it, they aren't targeted. What can I say? BSL just doesn't work. We have come very far as a society, but BSL is a giant step back.


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## RawPitbulls (Feb 7, 2013)

sozzle said:


> Excellent letter.
> 
> BTW for your interest these breeds of dogs cannot currently be imported into New Zealand:
> Brazilian Fila
> ...


Thanks! That means a lot! 
A Dogo Argentino is a big part of my life right now. She is SUCH A SWEETHEART! So submissive to people as well, not to mention great with small children.

Presas are definitely NOT a dog for a novice dog owner! They are very large, powerful, and have tons of drive. They have a natural guarding instinct. But all that being said, when it comes to their family, they are great. It is hard to find a more loyal breed than presas. But, this is only with their family. I would always recommend strangers proceed with caution when meeting any large dog, presa canarios are simply no exception. These dogs excel at protection and guarding.


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## riddick4811 (Nov 2, 2011)

Well I'm totally against all BSL, but proper education is important. I was at Animal Control to renew tags on my way to the vet and had Casper in the car today. He is a 115lb Dogo Argentino and an animal control officer called him a pit bull. When I corrected him, he said it looks like a pit bull to me. So in most cases, people (even people that should!) don't even know what a pit bull looks like. 

This is Casper beside a 55lb white pit bull. Most American Pit Bull Terriers (not American Bullies) are between 35-60lbs and usually no more than knee high on most people or around 20" at the withers. How someone can think a dog the size of Casper is a pit bull is beyond me.


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## doggiedad (Jan 23, 2011)

expand your horizons, expand your travels, expand your search and you'll find
wayward Pits and owners in Suburbia, exurbia, inner city, your city and a 4 block 
radius of your home.



kevin bradley said:


> the problem I have with Pits is this and its not going to come across as politically correct.
> 
> MANY Pits grow up in such abhorent conditions in our inner cities, on chains for their lives...fought, abused, etc...
> 
> HOW on EARTH could we come to the conclusion for CERTAIN that the breed is systemically agressive? Christ, if you treated Golden Retrievers the way you do Pits, we would probably be discussing Golden's as the "problem."


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## Savage Destiny (Mar 16, 2011)

RawPitbulls said:


> Thanks! That is SO true! It is truly an impossible feat to identify a "pitbull" by looks. I recently had a DNA test done on a dog I was sure was an EBT/AST. As it turns out, the dog is a Dalmatian, Mastiff, and German Shorthaired Pointer (with some St. Bernard and Poodle mixed in there somewhere). This is a dog that would have been targeted for BSL, and yet there is no AST, SBT, APBT, or even BT! At the same time, you have dogs that DO have "pitbull" in them, and since they don't look like it, they aren't targeted. What can I say? BSL just doesn't work. We have come very far as a society, but BSL is a giant step back.


You've been informed multiple times that the DNA tests are totally worthless, not to mention that they don't even include APBT or AmStaff yet. The dog you did the test on very well could (and probably does) have some sort of bull breed in it, but since the test doesn't include most of them, of course it won't show up. Using DNA tests as an argument against BSL is idiotic, since the tests are not even remotely accurate.


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## kevin bradley (Aug 9, 2009)

doggiedad said:


> expand your horizons, expand your travels, expand your search and you'll find
> wayward Pits and owners in Suburbia, exurbia, inner city, your city and a 4 block
> radius of your home.



I assure you I've traveled plenty and if you don't want to concede that our inner cities are plagued with increased mistreatment of Pit Bulls... I'm not sure what to say or how to open your eyes. 

Cannot believe we even have people who do not think mistreatment/fighting of Pit/bully breeds in inner cities is a freaking epidemic. 

Read what I wrote... I never even HINTED that the mistreatment of Pits doesn't occur outside of large metropolitan areas. Where there are human beings, there will always be abhorent treatment of animals.

I'm not going to debate this. I live right smack between Detroit and Chicago and travel to both areas frequently for work. Maybe YOU should come see what I see and hear about on the local news all too often. Go do a Google search before you respond. For every "suburban" mistreated Pit, I will match you with about 1000 mistreated in the inner city. 

http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/news/nation/2008-09-29-dogfighting_N.htm


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## Kassandra (Jun 6, 2012)

kevin bradley said:


> I assure you I've traveled plenty and if you don't want to concede that our inner cities are plagued with increased mistreatment of Pit Bulls... I'm not sure what to say or how to open your eyes.
> 
> Cannot believe we even have people who do not think mistreatment/fighting of Pit/bully breeds in inner cities is a freaking epidemic.
> 
> ...


I completely agree with you. In that the inner cities have an abundance of mistreated bully breeds. HOWEVER I do think that that is because there are a LOT more people in these cities than that of rural areas. I think it is as much of a problem one place as it is another. It's just that where there are more people, there is [generally] more crime, there are more "bad" people in a highly populated area than there are in a small town.

This is not to disagree with you or prove you wrong, it is really directed at everyone in the thread who has said anything at all about it. I'm hoping nobody takes it wrong and just thinks about it how I do.


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## kevin bradley (Aug 9, 2009)

Kassandra said:


> I completely agree with you. In that the inner cities have an abundance of mistreated bully breeds. HOWEVER I do think that that is because there are a LOT more people in these cities than that of rural areas. I think it is as much of a problem one place as it is another. It's just that where there are more people, there is [generally] more crime, there are more "bad" people in a highly populated area than there are in a small town.
> 
> This is not to disagree with you or prove you wrong, it is really directed at everyone in the thread who has said anything at all about it. I'm hoping nobody takes it wrong and just thinks about it how I do.


Maybe Kassandra. You make a good point... I'm willing to admit part of it is simply due to MORE PEOPLE=MORE MISTREATMENT.

However, I think its more than that. Take a look at the article link I sent. There is a systemic issue in the inner cities with Pits/Bully breeds. Young kids use them as status symbols, fighting them... 

Does this go on OUTSIDE of our cities on a comparable per capita equal level? I don't know... I'm not sure anyone would know for sure. I'm not naive enough to say that dog fighting doesn't occur in rural areas. I guess I'd have to dig into the stats more if they even exist.

But a fair counterpoint.


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## naturalfeddogs (Jan 6, 2011)

I know this really isn't possible, but I think it's the irresponsible owners/breeders who need to be banned, rather than the breed. JMO. I haven't read through all these posts, but I just wanted to say that that's how I feel about it. That's my only contribution to this conversation! LOL!


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## kevin bradley (Aug 9, 2009)

I agree NF.

However, from a Macro level, and addressing mistreatment of Pits... I feel like you've got to target the areas that will give us the biggest bang for the buck.

We've got to make young kids, ANYONE for that matter... understand that its NOT cool to fight dogs. Its not COOL to have a 10 lb chain around your Pit. Its NOT cool to have the biggest, "baddest" dog on the block and its NOT what they are meant for. 

Teaching them "empathy" towards animals is probably never going to happen. Removing the "cool" factor might be.


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## naturalfeddogs (Jan 6, 2011)

kevin bradley said:


> I agree NF.
> 
> However, from a Macro level, and addressing mistreatment of Pits... I feel like you've got to target the areas that will give us the biggest bang for the buck.
> 
> ...


Exactly. Those are the ones who should be banned. I don't think simply educating these people will be enough. The "cool" and "macho" imagejust too great. Much eaisier said than done though, I know.


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## kevin bradley (Aug 9, 2009)

naturalfeddogs said:


> Exactly. Those are the ones who should be banned. I don't think simply educating these people will be enough. The "cool" and "macho" imagejust too great. Much eaisier said than done though, I know.


True. Probably naive to think we can "educate" cruelty out of people. 

I live in a city with a large Pit problem... our Shelters are filled with them. The lady I just spoke with at the city shelter told me that 90% of the Dogs they get are Pits. 

When I was growing up... I NEVER remember so many Pits in shelters or our cities for that matter. It was mostly labs(still tons of them admittedly)... But SOMETHING triggerred our shelters to be filled with Pits, especially inside our larger cities. 

I respect everyone's opinions on the issue. However, if we turn a blind eye to the fact that it IS a big inner city issue... we fail to really get to any type of solution(not that I know what it is). 

I mean, if you were going to address gun violence, would you target your efforts to Pocatello, Idaho or would you concentrate the majority of your efforts in Chicago or Detroit where people are dying every second?


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## Kassandra (Jun 6, 2012)

kevin bradley said:


> Maybe Kassandra. You make a good point... I'm willing to admit part of it is simply due to MORE PEOPLE=MORE MISTREATMENT.
> 
> However, I think its more than that. Take a look at the article link I sent. There is a systemic issue in the inner cities with Pits/Bully breeds. Young kids use them as status symbols, fighting them...
> 
> ...


Oh yeah, I don't think that is completely the reason at all. But I do think it is a big majority. 

Rural areas, more specifically farming towns, would never have a pit bull as a pet. It would be very rare that they did. Maybe for a guarding dog. MAYBE. But, being from a small farming community, I can safely say that no farmer or parent there in their right mind would let their children bring a pit home. They like herding dogs, bird dogs, water dogs. Something that can help them with the farm or with hunting. I do not usually willingly admit I am a hick, however, I know that I am. LOL. My family likes to hunt, likes to farm, so why on earth would we have an animal that can't help with that. Most people from small communities like this are just like my family. It is rare to see a pit in a small community because they simply can't afford to have an animal that aren't helping them with something. Also, IMO, people that grow up on a farm, ranch, etc, form a deeper relationship with animals and don't really want to cause them pain.

In the vast majority, large cities have more people, wealthier people, people who can afford to have a pet that doesn't help with anything, people who have dogs for status rather than because they need a job done. I now live in a larger city (well, largest in NL LOL) and I have noticed that most people here do indeed have a job for status. Girly girls usually have small toy breeds, toy poodles, chihuahuas, bichons, etc. The more energetic people want a dog that can run with them, hike with them etc, so they usually have labs, BCs, goldens, etc. I have noticed that the "gangsters" and "badasses" (usually boys, but yes there are females too of course) want something that looks equally as badass as they think they look, something that makes them look tough, so they want something that is pure muscle. Usually that means a bully breed. Most of these people (in my opinion) need something to do with their time, they aren't the most responsible people in the world so they feel if they make a little money off it then they can't go wrong. Right??

Now I don't know how that ties into dogfighting honestly, but that is just how I feel about why there are so many more pits in urban areas than there are in rural areas. And I hate stereotyping, but I do feel there is some degree of truth to stereotypes. Say what you want about me, but I do feel that I am right in saying that. So that could also have a role in it, but it could just be me saying that, and as much as I feel bad saying it, I do feel it to be true.


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## kevin bradley (Aug 9, 2009)

But you should check out the ability of Pits, Kassandra. They are athletic enough to do about anything. I bet there is a Trainer somewhere that could turn a Pit into a bird dog 

I've seen them jump about 6 feet into the air and flip their body completely around... they aren't always elegant but they are a wonderful breed in the right hands. 

I'd say if I could solve ONE issue in the Dog world(other than cure Cancer) it would be to fix the mistreatment of Pits. Other breeds are mistreated, sure... but this tops my list.


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## Kassandra (Jun 6, 2012)

LOL I'm willing to bet they could! I'm sure it's been done.. or tried.. before :smile:

I agree with you on the cancer thing, but that goes for any species.. I would love for Pits to be considered a good breed just like anyone else. It's crazy what a handful of people can do to a breed.


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## kevin bradley (Aug 9, 2009)

whats funny is this...

I've never met anyone who has spent much time around Pits who doesn't like them.

Most people who dislike them... when I ask them if they've been around them much, I get a "Well, not really but I see them on the News..."


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## naturalfeddogs (Jan 6, 2011)

kevin bradley said:


> whats funny is this...
> 
> I've never met anyone who has spent much time around Pits who doesn't like them.
> 
> Most people who dislike them... when I ask them if they've been around them much, I get a "Well, not really but I see them on the News..."


Same here. I have been around them at the vets I have worked for over the past years, and known a couple who friends/aquaintainces have owned. Those were all great dogs, but also owned by responsible owners as well. What people see on the news, is not that. It's not a true representation of the breed, but that is unfortunantly what people who don't know any better base the breed on as a whole.


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## RawPitbulls (Feb 7, 2013)

Savage Destiny said:


> You've been informed multiple times that the DNA tests are totally worthless, not to mention that they don't even include APBT or AmStaff yet. The dog you did the test on very well could (and probably does) have some sort of bull breed in it, but since the test doesn't include most of them, of course it won't show up. Using DNA tests as an argument against BSL is idiotic, since the tests are not even remotely accurate.


Your argument contains incorrect information. The test I used DID test for not only Amstaff, but APBT as well. They are only inaccurate if you get a cheap one as well. I suggest knowing, before speaking. End Of Subject.


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## Sprocket (Oct 4, 2011)

I guess I should take that heavy chain off Gunner :tongue: I thought I was so cool for a while.


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## kevin bradley (Aug 9, 2009)

Sprocket said:


> I guess I should take that heavy chain off Gunner :tongue: I thought I was so cool for a while.



Sprock, 

For some reason, I don't think Gunner has too bad of a life


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## thegoodstuff (May 12, 2010)

Celt said:


> He was very articulate, charismatic, and vey assured of his argument and able to respond quickly and logically to his opponent. He never brought up the breed being human aggressive, though he did point out how people could be injured trying to protect their pet or breaking up a fight when his opponent argued that the dogs were not people aggressive. Like I said, this boy won his age division and had me, who thinks banning dogs because of breed rather "silly", seriously thinking about his argument. I can't imagine how the general public would react to such a well developed "speech". Actually, I don't want to think about it.


Reminds me of some other people like Charles Manson, Jim Jones and Adolf Hitler.


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## kevin bradley (Aug 9, 2009)

So true.

All the Freaks I know are articulate as hell when they speak, or should I say.... RANT. 

Hitler was great at the podium as you said, Goodstuff.


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## Squeeji (Feb 17, 2012)

thegoodstuff said:


> Reminds me of some other people like Charles Manson, Jim Jones and Adolf Hitler.


Whoa whoa whoa...I was cool with this discussion until Godwin's law was pulled on a teenager doing an extracurricular activity. 

As a debate coach, let me clue you in on something- that kid is trained to support both sides of the argument at the flip of a coin. So don't make such unfair claims on what sort of person they are. That's like calling your football team Nazis for running defense instead of offense. (Come on guys, I really expect more from you folks!)


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## kevin bradley (Aug 9, 2009)

O brother. 

Tell us about a kid who debates banning Pit Bulls on a Dog forum where many of us love Dogs*(including Pits) with every ounce of our soul... keeping in mind that many of us regard them as our OWN children... then criticize us for not honoring him because he can "turn on a dime" as you put it because he's a well versed "debater" with no soul other than winning some arbitrary hurtful argument to MANY on this forum who love and cherish their Pits?

Give me a freaking break.

That kid will do well in Politics. He can run both sides of any issue and make everyone happy. He'll be hated in the end for no soul.


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## thegoodstuff (May 12, 2010)

Relax. No one is calling the kid a Nazi, and this has nothing to do with Godwin's law. History is full of people who have charismatically and convincingly twisted reality to server their evil purposes. Thats all. Ok, make it Charlie Manson, Jim Jones and Wile E Coyote


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## Squeeji (Feb 17, 2012)

kevin bradley said:


> O brother.
> 
> Tell us about a kid who debates banning Pit Bulls on a Dog forum where many of us love Dogs*(including Pits) with every ounce of our soul... keeping in mind that many of us regard them as our OWN children... then criticize us for not honoring him because he can "turn on a dime" as you put it because he's a well versed "debater" with no soul other than winning some arbitrary hurtful argument to MANY on this forum who love and cherish their Pits?
> 
> ...


What I'm saying is- this kid didn't pick the topic of the debate, every kid in debate that year had to argue this topic. If you have an issue, bring it up to the National Forensics Association. But don't call a kid horrible things just because he has a passing interest in something (and lets face it, how many kids in an extra curricular go on to be professionals? Not many.) 

I love pitbulls, my last dog was a pitbull and she was the sunshine in my life. But that isn't a bad kid. And I'm not going to get my wires crossed.


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## kevin bradley (Aug 9, 2009)

Squeeji said:


> What I'm saying is- this kid didn't pick the topic of the debate, every kid in debate that year had to argue this topic. If you have an issue, bring it up to the National Forensics Association. But don't call a kid horrible things just because he has a passing interest in something (and lets face it, how many kids in an extra curricular go on to be professionals? Not many.)
> 
> I love pitbulls, my last dog was a pitbull and she was the sunshine in my life. But that isn't a bad kid. And I'm not going to get my wires crossed.



I get what you are saying and understand the dynamics of these debates.

But the topic of banning Pit Bulls is a hurtful discussion for many. What was the next topic in the debate?... whether the Holocaust happened?


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## Squeeji (Feb 17, 2012)

kevin bradley said:


> I get what you are saying and understand the dynamics of these debates.
> 
> But the topic of banning Pit Bulls is a hurtful discussion for many. What was the next topic in the debate?... whether the Holocaust happened?


I know it can be hurtful, but what I meant was- being hurtful in return doesn't make anything any better. Maybe however you can see this as a blessing in disguise, because while there are these students who are arguing for this, there are just as many who are arguing for it- even this proclaimed charismatic boy has rallied for your cause just as much as he rallied against it, because he was interested enough to know both sides of this hot topic.

Just think of how many teenagers didn't even know this was a 'thing' til this year. Yes some of them might grow up for or against BSL they might even become politicians, but in the end I think it's something amazing that they took the time to teach themselves, something that I know most adults won't. 

Also, yes, there have been some unpopular ones, but this is hardly the most controversial debate topic that's been picked.


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## thegoodstuff (May 12, 2010)

Squeeji said:


> Whoa whoa whoa...I was cool with this discussion until Godwin's law was pulled on a teenager doing an extracurricular activity.
> 
> As a debate coach, let me clue you in on something- that kid is trained to support both sides of the argument at the flip of a coin. So don't make such unfair claims on what sort of person they are. That's like calling your football team Nazis for running defense instead of offense. (Come on guys, I really expect more from you folks!)


Youre on the wrong track.

Just to be clear, _my_ Evil Genius reference was about the mechanics of how good people get sucked in by other people who have the ability to do that, it was not a condemnation of the student. I said it "reminds me of". It was an observation of the historic relevance. Nothing more.


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## Squeeji (Feb 17, 2012)

thegoodstuff said:


> Youre on the wrong track.
> 
> Just to be clear, _my_ Evil Genius reference was about the mechanics of how good people get sucked in by other people who have the ability to do that, it was not a condemnation of the student. I said it "reminds me of". It was an observation of the historic relevance. Nothing more.


That pendulum swings both ways when referred to historic relevance...for every Charlie Manson, for every Adolf Hitler etc...there's also a John F. Kennedy, Martin Luther King Jr...etc. Why can't we just see genius and appreciate it at that? I'd like to see this kid's argument against BSL. Too bad that was missed.


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## Savage Destiny (Mar 16, 2011)

RawPitbulls said:


> Your argument contains incorrect information. The test I used DID test for not only Amstaff, but APBT as well. They are only inaccurate if you get a cheap one as well. I suggest knowing, before speaking. End Of Subject.


Even the expensive tests are pretty much universally accepted as inaccurate. I groom a dog that is 75lbs, has short bull-breed like hair, and is blue merle. His owner did one of the very expensive tests that a vet has to actually run. The test came back saying the dog was Golden Retriever, Bernese Mountain Dog, and Glen of Imaal Terrier. Let's see... nothing short hair, and no breeds that can be merle, which is a dominant gene. What a rip off. 

Using DNA tests as an argument against BSL is just ridiculous. It's every bit as bad as just looking at a dog and deciding it's a Pit Bull.


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## thegoodstuff (May 12, 2010)

Rvent said:


> Like BSL? Neither do we. We are helping to keep it from happening in CT - ever. CONNECTICUT RESIDENTS NEEDED. If you do not live in CT, please share this important bill! (you never know if someone you know, knows someone in CT). Thank you.
> 
> CT Bill 6311 | Facebook
> 
> @RawPitBulls I might just take some excerpt from your letter, if you don't mind of course.. to help make sure this bill passes here


How did the meeting go? I wish I had known about it.


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## Rvent (Apr 15, 2012)

thegoodstuff said:


> How did the meeting go? I wish I had known about it.



I believe it went very well, the committee chair person said that they had an over whelming response by phone and letters in favor of this bill, and the majority of representatives who where present had some sort of positive interactions with pit bulls and believed that the problem lies with irresponsible dog owners and not the dog or with any one breed.


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## Celt (Dec 27, 2010)

Umm, let me state again that this was a child (well, young teen) who was competing in the "social issues" category. breed banning while disturbing and upsetting is an issue with 2 sides that can be argued (and I'm sorry comparing it to the holocaust is just not right). It wasn't the subject that got to me so much as the fact, this child was able to find "supporting evidence" on why pits should be banned off of statements/comments/quotes made by people who love the breed.
Yes, there is a lot more evidence that prove banning can be unrealistic in its implementation but for the general public, the "fact" that people who love this breed are making comments on "how dangerous" these dogs are could be enough to "push" them into agreeing on banning. Most people already have a "view" of Pitbulls being dangerous (with a few believing it's the owner not the breed's fault), so if people who are supposed to think highly of the breed is making statements indicating that this breed is dangerous... Well, it doesn't take much for Joe Public to decide, and generally people take what they are given and don't go looking for more info. And if a child was able to do this for a competition, what if this same idea fell into an adult's hands?
There are many, many people with "king's magic" for both side of the coin (good/bad). Some have done great things and others do "quieter" things that are influential but most have used their gift to support what they believe in.


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## lauren43 (Feb 6, 2011)

Celt said:


> Yes, there is a lot more evidence that prove banning can be unrealistic in its implementation but for the general public, the "fact" that people who love this breed are making comments on "how dangerous" these dogs are could be enough to "push" them into agreeing on banning. Most people already have a "view" of Pitbulls being dangerous (with a few believing it's the owner not the breed's fault), so if people who are supposed to think highly of the breed is making statements indicating that this breed is dangerous...


If there are pit advocates or owners out there talking about how dangerous the breed is, shame on them! I've heard precautions but I've never heard a pit owner talk about how dangerous their breed of choice is. Bullies and their mixes are simply not for everyone...there are tons upon tons of breeds I would refer to as a "not for everyone" breed.


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## Rvent (Apr 15, 2012)

Celt said:


> Umm, let me state again that this was a child (well, young teen) who was competing in the "social issues" category. breed banning while disturbing and upsetting is an issue with 2 sides that can be argued (and I'm sorry comparing it to the holocaust is just not right). It wasn't the subject that got to me so much as the fact, this child was able to find "supporting evidence" on why pits should be banned off of statements/comments/quotes made by people who love the breed.
> Yes, there is a lot more evidence that prove banning can be unrealistic in its implementation but for the general public, the "fact" that people who love this breed are making comments on "how dangerous" these dogs are could be enough to "push" them into agreeing on banning. Most people already have a "view" of Pitbulls being dangerous (with a few believing it's the owner not the breed's fault), so if people who are supposed to think highly of the breed is making statements indicating that this breed is dangerous... Well, it doesn't take much for Joe Public to decide, and generally people take what they are given and don't go looking for more info. And if a child was able to do this for a competition, what if this same idea fell into an adult's hands?
> There are many, many people with "king's magic" for both side of the coin (good/bad). Some have done great things and others do "quieter" things that are influential but most have used their gift to support what they believe in.


I would actually be interested in where and by what pit bull advocates he obtained this information from, in all of my research I have never heard an advocate for the breed refer to them as dangerous. I believe most pit bull owners as with myself do not believe in dog parks period, regardless of what breed of dog you own a dog park is a breeding ground for dog fights. As with any information things can and have been taken out of context for instance the break stick, just because most pit bull owners believe it is a good idea to own one and know how to use it does not mean you believe the breed is dangerous or that you will ever have to use it, its like having a leash, choke collar or prong collar and knowing how to use it, it does not imply that you believe your dog is dangerous it is a tool nothing more. Any breed of dog can be dangerous given the right circumstances. As a responsible DOG owner you should know your dog and all you can about their personality as an individual and some breed characteristics. I think the most disturbing thing is that all the arguments singling out why pit bulls should be ban, can be used for banning many other breeds of dogs as well.
I do give him credit for the obvious effort he put into making his debate.


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## kevin bradley (Aug 9, 2009)

Celt said:


> (and I'm sorry comparing it to the holocaust is just not right).



2-3 million Dogs euthanized per year in the U.S., and I'm guessing a HUGE proportion of them Pits....

Celt, just know that your disagreeing with comparing it to the holocaust is your opinion. I'd say its a very fair comparison. But I also love Dogs as much a humans so I'm a weirdo.


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## lauren43 (Feb 6, 2011)

kevin bradley said:


> But I also love Dogs as much a humans so I'm a weirdo.


Your not a weirdo, I think I could honestly say I love dogs MORE than humans...at least until I have kids of my own then they will come first..MAYBE.


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