# Argh (again) and liver ?



## ubershann (Jul 29, 2010)

Well, I tried chicken one more time and am dealing with some pretty horrible poops (if I can call them that when they're practically liquid). I thought maybe since she'd been on raw exclusively for a while now she could handle a little. Nope. Oh well, she's been doing great on the other meats I've been giving her so I'll just give her some pumpkin for her tummy, do my best to clean up the disgusting smelly mess, and stock up on beef and pork. 

I'm looking for more info on what livers add to the diet. I know it adds in some needed nutrients, but I find so much different info from different sources, so I'm looking for the overall opinion here too. How much is needed and how often do you feed them? What do you feed it for (nutrients, enzymes, etc.)

Thanks!


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## DaneMama (Jun 27, 2008)

We try and feed a variety of kinds...beef, pork, chicken, llama, game, etc. That way we give a good variety to cover all the bases. Although I'm not a fan of beef liver because they are HUGE! 

The younger or more natural (wild caught animals) are the best to feed because they have less toxins built up in them, since the liver is the filter for the body.

Liver is added in for the overall nutrition. It's a necessity to the diet. Not something that can be skipped!


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## ubershann (Jul 29, 2010)

So how much and how often should I be feeding it? I've been having a hard time finding that information. Seems like every opinion is different on every web site I check


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## bdb5853 (May 21, 2010)

Liver is 5% of the diet. So if you are feeding 3% of your dogs weight, you would feed 5% of the total weight in food in liver. A nickel on a dollar. It's not a lot, but it is essential.

I prefer red meat liver, like bison or beef or pork. Chicken liver is OK, but I'd rather the liver percentage not come from a bird.


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

personally, i'd start over....

i'd fast the dog for 24 hours and start again with chicken backs...to stabilise...

then slowly add chicken parts....and do the progression again....

i feel your frustration....some dogs transition more easily than others.....

how much does your dog weigh?


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## ubershann (Jul 29, 2010)

magicre said:


> personally, i'd start over....
> 
> i'd fast the dog for 24 hours and start again with chicken backs...to stabilise...
> 
> ...


Well, I'm not going to get into the whole chicken thing again, but suffice it to say that she will not be eating chicken again. This is not even close to the first time she's had chicken and every time we get the same bad results. I realize chicken works for most, but it does not for my dog. It's no big deal to me. There are plenty of other meats out there, and she does very well on them. I realize starting over did the trick with your dogs, but for mine it is very obvious that she has a problem with chicken. Why force a meat on her that her body rejects? 

To be honest I'm happy not to feed her chicken. The things that they do to chickens is disgusting. Genetic modification, antibiotics, hormones, chemicals, etc. More so than any other meat. I'm very careful about the chicken I eat, and there's no way I'd buy Tiki $7/lb chicken for her dinner. We'd have to eat dinner while living on the streets :wink:


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## ubershann (Jul 29, 2010)

bdb5853 said:


> Liver is 5% of the diet. So if you are feeding 3% of your dogs weight, you would feed 5% of the total weight in food in liver. A nickel on a dollar. It's not a lot, but it is essential.
> 
> I prefer red meat liver, like bison or beef or pork. Chicken liver is OK, but I'd rather the liver percentage not come from a bird.


Thanks. She'll most likely be getting beef liver or pork liver if I can find it. 

Can I add it once a week? Or does it have to be at least a couple times a week?


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

sorry about that. i had forgotten your baby had a problem with chicken....my bad.


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## ubershann (Jul 29, 2010)

magicre said:


> sorry about that. i had forgotten your baby had a problem with chicken....my bad.


No worries :smile: I had some on hand and thought I'd give it one last try. I now am absolutely 100% sure it's not a food for her. No biggie though, she loves pork and beef so much she'd be happy to eat it forever! And for the most part she probably will. If I spoke her language I'd be sure to tell her how lucky she is :wink:


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## whiteleo (Sep 7, 2008)

I hope you find some game meat for that dog to eat!


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## Jodysmom (Jan 9, 2010)

When I first introduced chicken to my dog I used chicken quarters. The results were not good. Then I learned I could get chicken backs from Whole Foods for .99 a lb. At first I trimmed off all of the fat and organs and I didn't have one problem. For some reason, the quarters were either too meaty or fatty (dark meat) and the backs worked and that is still the base of Jody's diet. 

I can feed quarters now but it took a while for me to not have that experience you described. 

I know your dog does not tolerate chicken. 
Tami


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## ubershann (Jul 29, 2010)

Jodysmom said:


> I know your mind if made up but maybe this can help someone else going through the same problem.
> 
> Tami


Thanks, but it's not just that I've "made up my mind" that I don't "want" to feed them to her. It's not a choice, other than choosing to feeding her something that does not make her sick. There are cases when a dog can not handle a certain meat, and this is one of them. The diarrhea is just the beginning of what happens to her when she eats chicken. 

I really don't see what the big deal is in not feeding chicken, especially when it has obviously had horrible effects over and over and over again. I realize chicken is cheaper than most meats, but is there any other reason it is pushed?


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## Jodysmom (Jan 9, 2010)

ubershann said:


> Thanks, but it's not just that I've "made up my mind" that I don't "want" to feed them to her. It's not a choice, other than choosing to feeding her something that does not make her sick. There are cases when a dog can not handle a certain meat, and this is one of them. The diarrhea is just the beginning of what happens to her when she eats chicken.
> 
> I really don't see what the big deal is in not feeding chicken, especially when it has obviously had horrible effects over and over and over again. I realize chicken is cheaper than most meats, but is there any other reason it is pushed?


Since I am a raw feeding newbie, 6 weeks, I still need to feed a lot of bone to Jody. I did feed her the bone in a pork roast the other day but she needs to have bone with every meal to have firm stool. This will be real important when I get to the richer meats and organs. I know that eventually I will feed less bone so I will feel less chicken/bone. Also, since I am introducing proteins methodically (bad first raw feeding experience) she isn't even eating beef yet so I don't give her any beef bones. But for now..it is making this transition to raw feeding flawless.

Tami


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## DaneMama (Jun 27, 2008)

There's is absolutely no reason you have to feed chicken. Chicken is actually not the best meat for dogs in the first place. It's cheap and easy to digest (for most!) which is why it's recommended. There's nothing wrong with feeding chicken, but there are better meats out there. Don't feel pressured into thinking you NEED to feed it. I think most people here have one bad experience and learn from it and they are just trying to help. But I know that you've tried chicken several times ( the right way) and never seen good results. Some dogs are just intolerant to some proteins, it's not common but it does happen.

As far as how much liver to feed...the guideline is about 10% of the total diet should be organ meats. The two that we feed are liver and kidney. The dogs get a full meal of organ meat every other week. I don't suggest you do this because it won't set right with your dog, ours handle it because they've been eating raw a long time. What I suggest you do, is feed a pea size amount every three to four days intermixed with very bone heavy meals initially. Gradually increase this amount to however much she needs to fulfill her required amount. This may takes months. And don't add organ meat in until at least two to three months into the transition!


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## ubershann (Jul 29, 2010)

danemama08 said:


> There's is absolutely no reason you have to feed chicken. Chicken is actually not the best meat for dogs in the first place. It's cheap and easy to digest (for most!) which is why it's recommended. There's nothing wrong with feeding chicken, but there are better meats out there. Don't feel pressured into thinking you NEED to feed it.


Thanks for explaining. With the amount of times I've been told to feed her chicken, even after the bad results, I kept wondering why it was such a big deal, if there was some information I was missing about chicken that made it the magical nutrient. lol! 

Luckily she does incredibly well on everything else I've fed her, so I'll stick with those. Her poops have been tiny and hard, and only once or twice a day (at the most), her coat has gotten even shinier (if that's possible) and softer, and besides being overjoyed to eat her meals, her entire temperament has been wonderful. Of course she was wonderful before the raw so I'm not sure if it's helped, but it hasn't hurt! :wink: In fact, she's done so well on the other meats that we didn't even get farts with fish or eggs! As I transition the little one over to raw she's been letting some pretty stinky ones. For a 3 pound little shrimp she sure lets out some giant sized stinkers!



> As far as how much liver to feed...the guideline is about 10% of the total diet should be organ meats... What I suggest you do, is feed a pea size amount every three to four days intermixed with very bone heavy meals initially...


And thank you very much for this info and feeding instructions. I've been finding such different info on organs it's hard to put it all together to know the best way to feed it to her. I'll give it a while longer then start slowly introducing them. She's not a fan of liver so I think I might have to put small amounts in with her other food so she'll eat it. But I'll wait another couple months before I do that. Thanks!


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## DaneMama (Jun 27, 2008)

Glad I could help! Only two of our five dogs will eat organs voluntarily. We've tried all the tricks in the book to get them to eat their organs to no avail.

We use the "open and shove" method for organs...open their mouths and shove it in! Sounds kinda barbaric, but it works and they're used to it now.


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

we read many accounts about organs....and how difficult dogs can be...so when we started with liver, it was chicken liver..which i understand you can't do...but...

the way we did it was thumbnail sized pieces to lick off our fingers...then as they progressed proteins, we kept increasing the size until we reached 5% of the 10% of organs needed....

they get beef liver now....and they get it daily....mostly because we wake up at 4 a.m. for work and exercise before breakfast...which isn't until 7 a.m.

they didn't much care for squishy beef liver, so they are fed inch frozen cubes....appropriately sized for their weights...we have just added lamb kidney.....and now they have their full complement of 10% organ...another milestone met.

i consider that and their salmon oil gelcaps to be their 'vitamins'....they get theirs, whilst honey and i get ours...except we get to drink home made juice and they don't.

but others here feed it once a week....and some have to force feed it....some have to sear it....some do a ritual dance over the liver....


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## bdb5853 (May 21, 2010)

Brody gets bison liver and kidney as a meal on the weekends. I can remember it that way. I usually give it with some tripe and mix it all together and he will eat it fine that way. Just a hunk of liver - not so much. But mixed with tripe? Oh yeah. He loves it. :wink:


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## ubershann (Jul 29, 2010)

Sounds like liver is the brussel sprouts of the dog world :wink:

I'll probably have to come up with some creative ways to get it in there once we start feeding it. I like the idea of frozen cubes. Tiki thinks ice is a treat so that might help. Lola is such a chowhound I have a feeling it won't be a problem with her. She's like the kid in that old cereal commercial..."Give it to Mikey, he'll eat anything!" :biggrin:


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## deb9017 (Aug 31, 2010)

Ghosty loves liver like a fat kid lbes cake! Kidney he wants nothing to do with, but I think he would be happy if I gave him liver for every meal!


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