# Update



## OldGnarlHead (Feb 17, 2016)

Just updating on Cricket:

She's been doing really well, she's been taking pork really nicely. We haven't been giving a lot of it yet but we're going to up the amount next week. We're starting her on beef soon, and we're planning on taking it really slow just to be safe. The small organ bits in her food haven't seemed to be bothering her. She did have another diarrhea flare up, but I think that was my fault for overloading her with too many treats (for training purposes). That's all gone now, though, it resolved in a few days. We wrote out a feeding plan for introducing beef and organs and it's probably going to take about two or three months to get her fully transitioned. SLOW. But we don't want to take any chances of her butt exploding again. 

Just thought you would want to know!


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## naturalfeddogs (Jan 6, 2011)

Good deal! I've been wondering how things are going with you, and was hoping you would check back in. 

If if you are going to do treats for training purposes, try something dehydrated, like chicken. That you know is pretty easy to handle. You can also dehydrate boneless pieces of the same protein you are on at the moment (like pork, at the moment). In small amounts of course! Just a thought, I don't know what you were using for training. If you still have a little issue related to the treats, you may need to not use them for now.

Keep us posted!


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## OldGnarlHead (Feb 17, 2016)

Yeah, I cut back. I was mostly using dehydrated beef lung, dehydrated greed tripe, and dehydrated salmon skin and she did fine with those. I think it was this one treat that's more processed, its only ingredients are rabbit, corn starch, and vegetable glycerin (i know those aren't too great for her but she went bonkers over the samples so I figured they'd make good high value training treats). I gave her a dried beef trachea treat yesterday and she's been fine. I just hate not giving her treats sometimes!


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## naturalfeddogs (Jan 6, 2011)

Occasionally is fine at the moment as long as she tolerates them. I would however, stick to raw treats rather than processed. You really don't know for sure what they are really putting in them, and how much.


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## OldGnarlHead (Feb 17, 2016)

It's a brand I get all her other treats from, they're called barkworthies, I think? Barkworthies

Also, she's getting her broken tooth extracted soon and the vet said they'd probably do a teeth cleaning while she was under and we both literally laughed out loud. Her teeth look like we bush them twice a day! (cricket wasn't with us at the time so they didn't check her teeth)


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## OldGnarlHead (Feb 17, 2016)

So Cricket had some loose poop and when I went to go check it I found a whole chicken foot bone in it. It looked like it was half digested, like the middle was floppy and the ends were still pretty hard. I'm thinking of fasting her for the night but Arne doesn't want to cause he hates fasting her (she complains non-stop when she doesn't get food, especially since we reduced the amount she's been getting), especially after she played so hard today. Or so he says. Who knows.

She had a decently fatty part of some pork this morning and had another tripe stick last night so that might be it...


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## naturalfeddogs (Jan 6, 2011)

A small they are adjusting to digesting bone (and she is re learning), you may see whole bone on occasion. That's normal. I don't think I would fast her. How did the poop look otherwise?


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## OldGnarlHead (Feb 17, 2016)

Pretty much straight liquid with a little pip of normal poop... The whole bone thing just kinda freaked us out. We've seen the chips before but not the whole bones. Makes me a little scared to give her pork ribs again.. I'm pinning it on the fatty pork and the slightly excessive treats.. (she's had a tripe stick almost every day, which I know, probably not the best) Hopefully tomorrow is better. I gave her a little water (out of broth) with gelatin and slippery elm to give her a little protein and to put something in her stomach, and a little digestive coating..


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## naturalfeddogs (Jan 6, 2011)

I would back off treats for awhile at this point. The slippery elm is worth a try, but also be sure you aren't over feeding.

Im also a little worried about all those meds she had after her trip to the vet. When I heard you were giving her those, I was afraid this would happen. It certainly could be contributing to the problem this time, and can take awhile to straighten back out. Have you tried some pro/pre biotics, to help the gut get back into order again? You may need to after all that stuff.


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## OldGnarlHead (Feb 17, 2016)

I haven't tried any pro/prebiotics only because I haven't found one I like. I don't think we're over feeding, most of the time her poop is fine, and she's started to lose a lot of weight again.. Her tuck is now just kinda a cavern and her hip bones are starting to protrude a lot. I really want to get her transitioned so I can get more nutrition into her so she can stop losing weight...


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## OtherGuy (Nov 30, 2016)

Seeing big pieces of bone is more evidence that Cricket is not chewing bone-in pieces adequately and supports the earlier advice both Jenny and I gave about feeding bone-in pieces frozen. I personally would not give ribs so long as she is swallowing hunks of bone. I'd stick to chicken or other soft edible bone.

Hunks of bone can upset the GI tract and cause the sorts of problems Cricket has been experiencing.

Bill


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## naturalfeddogs (Jan 6, 2011)

I agree with Bill, and think feeding frozen or partially frozen is going to help her with learning to chew. Chicken feet may be a little small for now, too. Let her get to chewing more and then see how it goes.


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## OldGnarlHead (Feb 17, 2016)

I mean, she chews her bone for like a solid minute before swallowing, more if it's bigger. I thought that was fine for dogs


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## naturalfeddogs (Jan 6, 2011)

That's fine, but if you are seeing whole bones, she may be getting to the last part and swallowing that. Or, like you said you saw part of a whole chicken foot. That is something small enough to swallow whole. Which isn't big, and once better adjusted to raw she will probably digest that. And some bigger ones too, but in the beginning some bone is normal to see. You will likely see less as her body learns to handle it better.


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## OldGnarlHead (Feb 17, 2016)

Well, definitely, definitely feeding at least somewhat frozen... She's been so good about chewing her bone lately but we had a bone gulping incident this morning, ugh... Insofar Cricket is fine and acting 100% normal. it just sucks knowing it's all your fault, yanno...?


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## naturalfeddogs (Jan 6, 2011)

I wouldn't worry too much about it. She will probably do just fine.


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## OldGnarlHead (Feb 17, 2016)

I know, she seems 100% okay and upset she didn't get outside time today so.. We figure she'll be fine, i just have crazy anxiety. But yeah, definitely frozen...


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## naturalfeddogs (Jan 6, 2011)

Anxiety is normal. That gets better too.


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## OldGnarlHead (Feb 17, 2016)

Yeah, first dog, too... Some times I just worry that I'm going to kill my first dog.


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## OldGnarlHead (Feb 17, 2016)

Well Cricket is 100% fine. We fed her a mostly frozen meal and she chewed everything for a looong time so we think for the time being her food is going to be fed frozen.


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## jenniferny (Jul 24, 2014)

OldGnarlHead said:


> I haven't tried any pro/prebiotics only because I haven't found one I like. I don't think we're over feeding, most of the time her poop is fine, and she's started to lose a lot of weight again.. Her tuck is now just kinda a cavern and her hip bones are starting to protrude a lot. I really want to get her transitioned so I can get more nutrition into her so she can stop losing weight...


As far as probiotics, homemade Raw Milk Kefir is loaded with them. 
7 Kefir Benefits and Nutrition Facts https://draxe.com/kefir-benefits/
Raw kefir Vs. Pasteurized kefir Raw kefir Vs. Pasteurized kefir - Raw Paleo Melissa
The Dog That Kefir Saved https://www.culturedfoodlife.com/the-dog-that-kefir-saved/
raw milk Kefir https://youtu.be/UK5C_lsH7a0


Another option is Organic RAW Kombucha. You can either make it at home or buy any Kombucha that is labeled Raw and Organic such as GT's Multi Green Raw Organic Kombucha: 
GT's Kombucha â€” Products 

Kombucha also has the added benefit of enzymes, electrolytes and is an excellent detoxifier, which every human and animal can benefit from.


Anytime a human or companion animal receives pharmaceutical drug(s) a course of probiotics is a must to replace the gut flora that all pharmaceutical drugs absolutely devastate.
There are many/most times natural options for most pharmaceuticals. Many of these natural options are just as effective and many times even more effective with the side benefit of being completely non-toxic and unlike pharmaceutical medications are good for you/your pet.


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## OldGnarlHead (Feb 17, 2016)

AAAAHHHH SHE KEEPS GIVING US HUGE PANIC ATTACKS. 
We fed her dinner and her meal has mostly thawed out and she had this big slab of pork probably 5"x5"x1.5 and she chewed it for a second and then swallowed it, and I instantly knew something was wrong, she kinda gagged on it and then she sat down and howled.... after she went and drank a fair amount of water and she's acting normal now but JESUS DOG ugh no more big pieces like ever...


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## naturalfeddogs (Jan 6, 2011)

OldGnarlHead said:


> AAAAHHHH SHE KEEPS GIVING US HUGE PANIC ATTACKS.
> We fed her dinner and her meal has mostly thawed out and she had this big slab of pork probably 5"x5"x1.5 and she chewed it for a second and then swallowed it, and I instantly knew something was wrong, she kinda gagged on it and then she sat down and howled.... after she went and drank a fair amount of water and she's acting normal now but JESUS DOG ugh no more big pieces like ever...


She has to have the big pieces to chew. I would continue to give them frozen.


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## OtherGuy (Nov 30, 2016)

naturalfeddogs said:


> She has to have the big pieces to chew. I would continue to give them frozen.


Yes, and completely frozen. Not semi-thawed.

Bill


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## OldGnarlHead (Feb 17, 2016)

I'm afraid that she'll swallow the whole dang thing whole when its frozen and cause more problems! She had an almost completely frozen bit of turkey thigh and she chewed it for almost two minutes but she didnt chew any bits off and ended up swallowing it mostly whole..


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## naturalfeddogs (Jan 6, 2011)

Give her something bigger than a thigh then. I think she's chewing better than you realize. Sometimes that's the hardest thing for new raw feeders to wrap their heads around. Dogs chewing vs. people. But still, totally frozen and something bigger than a thigh.


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## OldGnarlHead (Feb 17, 2016)

Well I have her a fully frozen drumstick and a slab of pork about 4"x4".75" and she chewed it barely and then tried to swallow it and started choking. She managed to get it back up before I had to intervene, she chewed it like two more times and tried to swallow it again, and couldn't get it down, and then she said 'scew chewing thi thing' just tried swallowing it. She got it down but man did it look like it was super painful for her. I don't know if it's me causing problems or I just have a kinda dumb/excited dog...


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## naturalfeddogs (Jan 6, 2011)

She probably wasn't really choking, they do have a natural reflex (I forget the name of it right off), but if something is too big they more or less "hork" it back and try again. Give her something bigger than a drumstick, and a slab of pork ribs bigger than what you gave her. 

I wish you you could post a video of what she is doing. That would help a lot. I feel like she just needs bigger cuts than what you are giving her, to force chewing more (Still frozen, of course).


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## OtherGuy (Nov 30, 2016)

OldGnarlHead said:


> Well I have her a fully frozen drumstick and a slab of pork about 4"x4".75" and she chewed it barely and then tried to swallow it and started choking. She managed to get it back up before I had to intervene, she chewed it like two more times and tried to swallow it again, and couldn't get it down, and then she said 'scew chewing thi thing' just tried swallowing it. She got it down but man did it look like it was super painful for her. I don't know if it's me causing problems or I just have a kinda dumb/excited dog...


Not the most fun option, but holding on firmly to a drumstick or quarter while Cricket crews might serve to help teach her. I hand fed meals to my pup when starting to make sure he didn't gulp a big piece.

If it works, frozen is a lot easier. But...

Bill


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## OldGnarlHead (Feb 17, 2016)

I probably will sometime. I'm just so afraid to feed fully frozen cause I'm afraid she'll just swallow it all whole


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## naturalfeddogs (Jan 6, 2011)

OldGnarlHead said:


> I probably will sometime. I'm just so afraid to feed fully frozen cause I'm afraid she'll just swallow it all whole


Kells, that's why we are saying feed a considerably larger cut. One that is too large to swallow whole. Then once she gets it better, you can try some smaller ones. But some dogs are just gulpers, and always have to have really large cuts.


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## OldGnarlHead (Feb 17, 2016)

Do I try to feed two meal portions at a time then? Cause her meals aren't that big, and what do I do about bone? And usually if we try to take her meals she just starts gulping everything so I'd be worried about taking her food from her. 

She's been doing a lot better. Feeding mostly frozen and haven't had another bone-swallowing incident. I think she starts beef today which is great.


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## naturalfeddogs (Jan 6, 2011)

If you are feeding frozen and she hasn't been swallowing whole lately, then keep doing that. It sounds like it's working.


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## OtherGuy (Nov 30, 2016)

OldGnarlHead said:


> Do I try to feed two meal portions at a time then? Cause her meals aren't that big, and what do I do about bone? And usually if we try to take her meals she just starts gulping everything so I'd be worried about taking her food from her.
> 
> She's been doing a lot better. Feeding mostly frozen and haven't had another bone-swallowing incident. I think she starts beef today which is great.


IMO it is preferable for an adult dog to have one meal in any case, generally when the day is done (and they can sleep it off). IMS you may have an inverted schedule where she could sleep off the meal during the day, but whatever works towards having the dog run empty and having sleep off the meal time coordinated.

Because raw fed dogs burn readily available fat as the primary fuel they don't have blood sugar issues like humans do, and do better on one meal after puppyhood.

Bill


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## OldGnarlHead (Feb 17, 2016)

Last time we started giving her one meal a day at one point and it gave her even worse diarrhea than it had been before.

Also, the beef intro has gone smoothly thus far! We started with a super lean cut first, we think that's helping. We're pretty excited. I don't know what I'd do if we had to start over again..


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## naturalfeddogs (Jan 6, 2011)

OldGnarlHead said:


> Last time we started giving her one meal a day at one point and it gave her even worse diarrhea than it had been before.
> 
> Also, the beef intro has gone smoothly thus far! We started with a super lean cut first, we think that's helping. We're pretty excited. I don't know what I'd do if we had to start over again..


Starting beef lean is probably a good idea. Assuming it continues to go well, slowly, very slowly add more fattier pieces. 

If feeding once a day is working for you, keep on. Most of mine do well with once a day, I have one who seems to need a small morning meal/snack or she gets an upset tummy on occasion. Each dog is an individual, so go with what works for her.


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## OldGnarlHead (Feb 17, 2016)

Yeah I want to go to once a day but sometimes she still gets hunger pukes with two meals. I might go to the store and buy another roast since we don't have any left and today is meat day. the only beef i have now is brisket, and brisket is like, all fat lol. 

I cant wait until she's fully transitioned and can eat whatever. I'm worrying about her variety. She pretty much only gets chicken legs/things/feet/hearts/gizzards, boneless turkey (which will be all gone soon since no one has turkey in March), pork loin, shoulder, and ribs, and the occaisonal pigs ear, and now some beef. That's all we can usually find at the stores here anyway.. Can't wait until we can make room for an online order and start feeding her all kinds of things... Heart, lung, tail, wings, heads, tripe... ugh sometimes i feel like the worst raw feeder lol...

Do you think we should wait until she's fully transitioned to up her variety or should we get on that sooner?


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## naturalfeddogs (Jan 6, 2011)

If she's doing well, keep adding more variety. The more the better.


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## OtherGuy (Nov 30, 2016)

Barring a food allergy or intolerance, the only "transition" of significance is going from a diet that includes carbohydrates to one that is based on fat and protein alone.

Cricket transitioned many months ago.

Bill


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## OldGnarlHead (Feb 17, 2016)

Okay awesome. I found some boneless pork rib meat so I figured that'd be good to add in.. We'll be making a RFM purchase soon. Probably a lot of pork odds and ends and some beef bits. Its really hard to find different things at the stores here, and our freezer has been really full...

Been thinking of dropping turkey and adding in that deer I have? Since turkey is so hard to find here anyway... Do you think that would be a good idea to add in after organs? I don't really want to add in new proteins until after she's all good on organs.

Also (i don't know if any of you instagram), but I follow a lot of raw feeders on instagram and they all have such huge variety in their meals, like four or five different proteins in a meal and a huge variety overall and I was wondering when it'd be possible to do that? I know Re once told me when I planned on adding in lamb before beef that I was going to be feeding too many proteins at once?


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## naturalfeddogs (Jan 6, 2011)

You don't have to drop turkey completely, but adding deer is fine. 

You can feed different proteins together now, but I would use ones you know she is ok with. Any proteins can be mixed if you like, I do it all the time. I think Re was referring to mixing a lot of different stuff when you were having so many issues. That wouldn't have been good at the time. But once you know Cricket is fine, mix those that you know she is ok with. As you introduce new proteins and see she is fine with them, you can add them as well.


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## OldGnarlHead (Feb 17, 2016)

Okay. Do you think it would be bad to intro deer with organs? I don't want to overload her. We also have lamb pretty readily available. I'm just so worried about her getting enough nutrients. She's gotten so skinny (broken record, i know).


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## naturalfeddogs (Jan 6, 2011)

I wouldn't give deer and organs together in one meal. Give the organs with something bone in and simple, like chicken or turkey neck. 

And give deer in small amounts in the beginning.


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## OtherGuy (Nov 30, 2016)

naturalfeddogs said:


> You don't have to drop turkey completely, but adding deer is fine.
> 
> You can feed different proteins together now, but I would use ones you know she is ok with. Any proteins can be mixed if you like, I do it all the time. I think Re was referring to mixing a lot of different stuff when you were having so many issues. That wouldn't have been good at the time. But once you know Cricket is fine, mix those that you know she is ok with. As you introduce new proteins and see she is fine with them, you can add them as well.


Agreed. Only because Cricket has been so sensitive would I advise only adding one new protein (to a mix of other things) at a time. After that, diversify as much as you can with-in economic sense.


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## OldGnarlHead (Feb 17, 2016)

Okay awesome. She seems to do pretty great on pork and its super cheap around here so well probably going to be our kinda base meat.. And hopefully she does nicely on beef too.

We're going a looot slower than we probably need to but i really don't want repeat of last time.


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## naturalfeddogs (Jan 6, 2011)

Pork is pretty much the base here too. 

Don't worry about going slow. If it's working, keep on. But do keep moving forward.


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## OldGnarlHead (Feb 17, 2016)

We are, slow and steady. Excited to be moving forward though! Can't wait to be able to throw anything into a bowl and have her be able to have her be fine.


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## OldGnarlHead (Feb 17, 2016)

She's been doing okay so far. Hit a tiny snag with organs with some diarrhea but she hasn't pooped since then so I'm thinking it's going to be okay. 

We've been wanting to up her meat variety and I was wondering if it was okay to start proteins by adding in their bones? Like, buying rabbit bones or duck feet and feeding that instead of the meat right off the bat... She only gets pork ribs and chicken bones at the moment since we have nothing else available nearby other than purchasing online.


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## naturalfeddogs (Jan 6, 2011)

You can add those. I'm pretty sure they would have some meat on them too.


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## OldGnarlHead (Feb 17, 2016)

Okay. We're just struggling to get variety here since organs have been such a problem


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## naturalfeddogs (Jan 6, 2011)

Variety has been tough here too lately. The best you can do is the best you can do. Last night, my nephew came by and brought us a roast out of his freezer that's freezer burnt. He's not sure what it is, beef or pork. But looks like beef to me. So tell friends, family and co workers to let you know if they have anything in their freezers they would throw out, to give it to you.


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## OldGnarlHead (Feb 17, 2016)

It's not terribly hard to come by here, its that I dont want to intro organs and other meats simultaneously and I don't know how long it'll take to fully intro organs..


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## OldGnarlHead (Feb 17, 2016)

Okay, her diarrhea is almost completely gone. Going to give her a few days to let things go 100% back to normal and then start back on the Organ Trail (lol). 

We've decided to scrap trying to introduce two types of organ at once and just stick with liver, for now. It'll take longer, but if it works, forward movement is still forwards. I'm going to thaw a bit of deer too and start giving her tiiiiny (like 1cm x .5cm x 1cm) bits of that too. We have to move soon and really have to start working on minimizing the freezer.


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## naturalfeddogs (Jan 6, 2011)

Be sure you are giving something with bone along with the organ.

And yes, only one organ at a time..


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## OldGnarlHead (Feb 17, 2016)

Always do! She gets bone every day, too. It messes her poops up otherwise.


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## naturalfeddogs (Jan 6, 2011)

OldGnarlHead said:


> Always do! She gets bone every day, too. It messes her poops up otherwise.


Good, just making sure.


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## OldGnarlHead (Feb 17, 2016)

She has her tooth extraction tomorrow and Im so nervous they're going to do her pre-op blood work and tell me something is way off with her since she hasn't been nutritionally complete in so long.

Also we're definitely starting to get ahead of the fleas. I was considering starting to give her garlic to help. Just to reiterate, its completely fine in small doses, right? It says on the pet poison helpline that garlic is more toxic to dogs than onion by five times, which i always thought was the opposite.


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## naturalfeddogs (Jan 6, 2011)

Maybe good blood work will ease your mind.. hoping for it! Let us know how it goes.

yes, garlic is safe in small doses, like two or three cloves a day. The only way garlic is dangerous is if you force fed her three or four WHOLE things, every day for some time. If you look at http://springtimeinc.com I think their site lists all the studies done over the years on garlic safety. They also sell garlic as well, which may be easier than peeling, crushing and drying real garlic. If you decide to think about that, consider the air dried granuals. They are more effective than the tablet form.


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## OldGnarlHead (Feb 17, 2016)

I was just going to crush some garlic for her. I'm going to wait to change anything after her procedure... I hope she gets good blood work, I'm just worried after not being able to get good organs or variety in her..


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## naturalfeddogs (Jan 6, 2011)

I think there is a specific way to do the garlic, if you are using raw. A garlic press and I believe it has to dry for a bit too. I remember trying to use it raw, but it was super time consuming.


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## OldGnarlHead (Feb 17, 2016)

We are trying it in brewers yeast paste to see if that will help her fleas. We think we're getting ahead of it but I dont want the vets to comment... The stuff our old vet gave us was Vectra 3D and after reading reviews of it there's NO way we're ever putting that stuff on her.


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## OldGnarlHead (Feb 17, 2016)

So turns out they didn't even do blood work on her, fancy that. She's been mostly zonked out on pain meds. We made her special meals with ground turkey necks and cut up her meat into pieces so she doesn't have to chew much. Overkill, I know, but she is our baby. Apparently everyone at the vet clinic loves her. 

Well we've run into a problem with the fleas. We're taking care of a friend's dog for a month and he ALSO has fleas, so that's fun. Kinda at a loss of what to do now.


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## naturalfeddogs (Jan 6, 2011)

You'll have to use whatever you are using on Cricket on the other dog.


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## OldGnarlHead (Feb 17, 2016)

Well Legolas has a flea collar but it doesn't seem to be doing anything (imagine that). We're kinda thinking of just Frontlining both of them for the month then getting in a good flea prevention routine with Cricket


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## OldGnarlHead (Feb 17, 2016)

So we went back to the vet cause her tooth socket was looking super awful. They said it looked inflamed and they gave us an an anti-inflammatory and an antibiotic (one of the only times I'm okay with the antibiotics) so we'll see how it goes


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## OldGnarlHead (Feb 17, 2016)

Her poops have been very good recently so we're starting her back on just liver. Going up a half-gram a day (ugh). Hopefully it works this time around. We think the meds have been helping her poops so hopefully starting her back while she's on the meds will give her a head start.


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## OldGnarlHead (Feb 17, 2016)

She's been okay on liver this far, and :drumroll:

SHE'S GAINED A POUND!! YAAAYY! She's been at 36.5 for a few days now so I'm really happy! I'll be truly satisfied when she's back to about 38-39 pounds (she was 44 lbs when we got her almost a year ago.) I'm pretty happy right now.


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## naturalfeddogs (Jan 6, 2011)

Yay for cricket! Fingers crossed!


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## OldGnarlHead (Feb 17, 2016)

Just realized that with the weight gain we'll need to up her meal weight a little! Still have about a week and a half of meals prepped but she needs about another ounce now (staying at 2.5%, she's been at 14oz, at 36.8 lbs she needs closer to 15)


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## naturalfeddogs (Jan 6, 2011)

I hope all continues to go well!


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## OldGnarlHead (Feb 17, 2016)

Us too!


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## OldGnarlHead (Feb 17, 2016)

Cricket had a recheck at the vet today! Vet says her tooth hole is completely healed and she's fine. Also, with her harness on, she weighed 38.6 pounds! I'm sure some of that was her leash, too but her harness only weights 6 ounces so she could be like 37lbs! IM SO EXCITED MY BABY IS GAINING WEIGHT! Also she has been doing great on lots of pork and beef, and she gets up to 5 grams (SO much, I know :scarcasm: ) of liver! Also she's been playing like crazy with the dog we're sitting and her legs are getting huge! So much muscle! Hopefully things stay good!


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## naturalfeddogs (Jan 6, 2011)

Good! We told you she would gain once starting red meats!


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## OldGnarlHead (Feb 17, 2016)

True! She just got so skinny, down to about 33-34 pounds, which is bad... But I knew it would work out! We're just hoping her stomach holds out with liver now, I really want her to be able to eat her organs!


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## naturalfeddogs (Jan 6, 2011)

How has the liver been going?


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## OldGnarlHead (Feb 17, 2016)

It has been going great so far! Tonight will be 5.5 grams of liver. She gets a tablespoon of diatomecous earth (we've always noticed it makes her poops more firm) a day, and occasionally some slippery elm. I do think that the antibiotics she was on for her tooth-hole helped so I might plateau for a day or two to make sure I won't give her cannon butt. We've picked up the slippery elm since she's been off her meds. I have bentonite clay on hand, too, for emergencies. I believe we've gotten further that we did last time, it's been about two weeks on liver..


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## OldGnarlHead (Feb 17, 2016)

She's two days away from being at a quarter of an ounce, and she's been perfect. At half an ounce, we might try going up a gram a day...


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## OldGnarlHead (Feb 17, 2016)

Cricket has been off all diatomecious earth, slippery elm, and bentonite for, I want to say a week now. Her poops have been great, energy has been great. I think we might try going up a to a gram a day earlier than slated since it's going so well.


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## naturalfeddogs (Jan 6, 2011)

Sounds like it's going well! Are you feeling more confident about it all now?


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## OldGnarlHead (Feb 17, 2016)

Yep, I decided a while ago that I know that it's the best for her and that if something goes wrong its my fault not hers. We just have to learn how to work with her body. Just have to get her there and then ramp up the variety as much as possible to fill out those nutrients... I think after liver we're going to introduce a small amount of venison before getting on to other organs... thoughts?


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## naturalfeddogs (Jan 6, 2011)

It just goes to show that all dogs are different, and there's really not a "one size fits all" way of feeding. Know thy dog, as the saying goes. 

As as long as all is going well, sure start a little venison. Very tiny amount and work up from there, just like you have been.


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## OldGnarlHead (Feb 17, 2016)

I'd probably just work up to a few ounces. I don't want to delay other organs for much longer, but I also want to work on variety. And getting rid of venison in the freezer.


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## OldGnarlHead (Feb 17, 2016)

So night before last Arne forgot to feed Cricket her liver. I thought it might cause problems and it has a little. Last night I gave her 9.5 grams (which is what she has been on for about three days now, her poop looked a little off so I didn't want to increase the amount and make it worse) and this morning she had diarrhea. Not super terrible, still somewhat formed but definitely liquidy. We decided not to fast her, and I gave her a half tablespoon of bentonite clay and a half teaspoon of slippery elm this morning. Will keep her at 9.5g of liver until it clears up fully...


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## naturalfeddogs (Jan 6, 2011)

So how's it been going?


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## OldGnarlHead (Feb 17, 2016)

Good, I think I may have judged too soon, her next poop was fairly bony, and I had just given her a dinner of a pork tail and some bentonite, so I felt kinda bad. I think I will try to offset it with going up a gram to 10.5 tonight and see how that goes. She hasn't pooped since yesterday so taking that as a good sign. We're getting close to being at her target amount of liver!

Scratch all of what I just said, she had straight liquid poop.. If it persists tomorrow I'm going to fast for a day and then cut back on the liver amount, and give a tablespoon of bentonite and a teaspoon of slippery elm a day until it clears up. Hopefully we don't have o start liver over again...


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## naturalfeddogs (Jan 6, 2011)

You may not need to up the liver.. remember, 10% is a guide. She may not be able to handle any more at a time. Stay where you were before the liquid poop started. In fact, you may not need to up anything. She may be at her amount for everything, in order to avoid cannon butt.


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## OtherGuy (Nov 30, 2016)

I continue to suspect it is the boney stools (that seem to correlate very strongly with Cricket's episodes of diarreaha) that are at the root of her problems vs a one gram increase in liver. 

10% organs would be 44 grams a day (assuming a 16 oz daily feeding). 5% liver would be 22 grams a day.

Not pooping and having boney stools would be things I'd take as a bad sign as opposed to a good one.

Bill


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## OldGnarlHead (Feb 17, 2016)

Okay, Bill, again, she was 100% fine until Arne forgot her liver. Perfectly normal poops every day for weeks until right now, nothing else has changed, so yes it is the liver. She was making fine progress. And I guarantee if you had my dog you'd be having the same problems because we stick EXTREMELY strictly to 10% bone. We don't even feel comfortable going a half ounce over because she is so sensitive. We've had this conversation before. Not to mention the last time she had diarrhea was when she had too much liver too fast, not a bone problem, which you railed on about then, too.


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## OtherGuy (Nov 30, 2016)

OldGnarlHead said:


> Okay, Bill, again, she was 100% fine until Arne forgot her liver. Perfectly normal poops every day for weeks until right now, nothing else has changed, so yes it is the liver. She was making fine progress. And I guarantee if you had my dog you'd be having the same problems because we stick EXTREMELY strictly to 10% bone. We don't even feel comfortable going a half ounce over because she is so sensitive. We've had this conversation before. Not to mention the last time she had diarrhea was when she had too much liver too fast, not a bone problem, which you railed on about then, too.


You always seem to get angry when it is pointed out (and I wish you'd desist), but this time (as on past occasions) you mentioned in post #85 feeding pork tails (which are very boney) after which time Cricket had had constipation and boney poop prior to the diarrhea. 

I think (and have thought) that the boney stools are indicative of a problem and there is a history of boney stools preceding episodes of Cricket having diarrhea. Since excessive (or poorly chewed) bone is very upsetting to the GI tract and a leading cause of diarrhea, I think it is a kindness to mention it.

I'd suggest reading through your posting history and seeing just how many times you've mentioned Cricket having boney stool prior to episodes of diarrhea.

Bill


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## OldGnarlHead (Feb 17, 2016)

Yes I get angry because you constantly insist it's the bone, which I do not agree with and it gets frustrating being a broken recors. She chews a loooot now, anyway. Not to mention it doesn't matter how bony a cut is as long as the bone IN the cut equals 10%. It's the same regardless if it's chicken wings, or turkey necks, or pork ribs. All the pork tails we've given her have equated to 10% bone of her meals. Not to mention that she did fine on pork tails for a while before getting the diarrhea. Also, she hasn't had bony poops lately. She had firm poops after her tooth extraction but they weren't bony. I don't understand how you just can't get that super dense foods can throw some dogs, like mine, off. The second I realized Arne had forgot her liver I knew it was going to be a problem. 

Anyway her poops have been much more solid now, I expect everything will be back to normal in two days and then we can continue with her organs


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## OtherGuy (Nov 30, 2016)

OldGnarlHead said:


> Yes I get angry because you constantly insist it's the bone, which I do not agree with and it gets frustrating being a broken recors. She chews a loooot now, anyway. Not to mention it doesn't matter how bony a cut is as long as the bone IN the cut equals 10%. It's the same regardless if it's chicken wings, or turkey necks, or pork ribs. All the pork tails we've given her have equated to 10% bone of her meals. Not to mention that she did fine on pork tails for a while before getting the diarrhea. Also, she hasn't had bony poops lately. She had firm poops after her tooth extraction but they weren't bony. I don't understand how you just can't get that super dense foods can throw some dogs, like mine, off. The second I realized Arne had forgot her liver I knew it was going to be a problem.
> 
> Anyway her poops have been much more solid now, I expect everything will be back to normal in two days and then we can continue with her organs


Getting angry with people who are attempting to help you isn't the nicest way to behave.

I mention the bone because you mentioned constipation and boney stools prior to liquid diarrhea, and that's far for the first time Cricket has had boney poops prior to GI distress.

You mentioned boney stools followed by "straight liquid poop" as recently as Post #85 (3 days ago). So saying it hasn't happen "lately" is at variance with your own posts.

Bill


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## OldGnarlHead (Feb 17, 2016)

That was after already having softer poops, as evidenced by the giving her bentonite. And I feel like me getting frustrated is kinda validated at this point after a long time of you giving advice that doesn't strictly pertain to my situation.


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## OtherGuy (Nov 30, 2016)

You feel "frustrated" after posting Cricket has once again had liquid diarrhea following evidence of boney stools—which is a pattern from day one—and then lash out saying it isn't true (despite posting about it days ago)?

I'm not the bad guy here. Cricket has had numerous bouts of diarrhea after having boney stools over many months. I've read the threads. Boney stools cause GI upset. The advice is sound.


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## naturalfeddogs (Jan 6, 2011)

OldGnarlHead said:


> Okay, Bill, again, she was 100% fine until Arne forgot her liver. Perfectly normal poops every day for weeks until right now, nothing else has changed, so yes it is the liver. She was making fine progress. And I guarantee if you had my dog you'd be having the same problems because we stick EXTREMELY strictly to 10% bone. We don't even feel comfortable going a half ounce over because she is so sensitive. We've had this conversation before. Not to mention the last time she had diarrhea was when she had too much liver too fast, not a bone problem, which you railed on about then, too.


Remember, percentages are a guide, not written in stone. I don't follow ANY percentages, no mathematical junk at all...I have never had issues. Its why I always say, "don't stress over it". When you do, you only make things harder for yourself.


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## OldGnarlHead (Feb 17, 2016)

No, Bill, I am frustrated at you. 

And I know, 10% has been good for her most times. Sometimes we under shoot or over shoot a little, then compensate the next day and I think that is what throws her off.


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## OtherGuy (Nov 30, 2016)

OldGnarlHead said:


> No, Bill, I am frustrated at you.
> 
> And I know, 10% has been good for her most times. Sometimes we under shoot or over shoot a little, then compensate the next day and I think that is what throws her off.


The strategy of getting meals close to 10% bone is one I advised you to do for months, when you often got hostile for my suggesting it. But is has been (mainly) the course that's worked. So try to temper the frustration. OK? I've stuck with you when it hasn't always been so easy.

The boney poops are worrisome as they have come in advance of terrible diarrhea. Read back though your old threads and see for yourself that this is true. So something is going on with the bone. Maybe Cricket is swallowing without enough chewing?


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