# Question about choking?



## tracydr (Feb 25, 2011)

I recently saw a thread on the Doberman forum about a young Doberman who died while eating a large hunk of raw meat. Other readers mentioned similar episodes, in fact there was another Doberman death. Two deaths from choking! Both on large hunks!
I'm wondering if dobermans have less protected airways, more tendency to gulp or other reasons to be more prone to choking. Note, since these dogs died, this is true choking, not the usual stuck in the throat ( esophagus) episodes that usually occur.
Anyway, just wondering.
Also, has anyone heard anything about thiamine deficiency in raw fed dogs? 
I'm feeding raw and just want to make sure I get it right. I have a doberman, BTW.


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## naturalfeddogs (Jan 6, 2011)

I think it sounds like the dogs were gulping food, without chewing. They do need to chew well. I was feeding a dobe raw as well when I first started out. He had few teeth due to old age and he never choked. As far as a thiamine deficiency, I would't think so as long as there is variety in the diet.


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## Adam76 (Dec 24, 2010)

I think you will also find alot of the raw feeders here watch there dogs while they eat to prevent anything like that from happening.


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## tem_sat (Jun 20, 2010)

tracydr said:


> I recently saw a thread on the Doberman forum about a young Doberman who died while eating a large hunk of raw meat. Other readers mentioned similar episodes, in fact there was another Doberman death. Two deaths from choking! Both on large hunks!


Can you go into further detail regarding the post you read? Was the "large hunk of raw meat" boneless? How large was it in comparison to the size of the dog? Was the owner hovering? Was there any sort of guarding issue? I feel that alot of detail is missing to get a helpful response to your question. Possibly even linking to the original post might be helpful. 

-- Tara


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## tem_sat (Jun 20, 2010)

Forgive me for bumping my above response. I assume this is one of the threads regarding the doberman you mentioned who had choked: Just lost our perfect dobie to raw feeding - Doberman Forum : Doberman Breed Dog Forums

From what is written so far, it seems to be difficult to get enough detail to ensure a consise response from many of the most experienced raw feeders. I am sorry to hear about this dog and I can understand your concern. I am wondering as well whether it may be advisable to dice boneless meat so as to avoid a large chunk going down unchewed. 

-- Tara


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## whiteleo (Sep 7, 2008)

It is true that this can happen at anytime and from anything. But I have advised all raw feeders of the kitchen kit that should be kept where you feed your dogs for this reason.


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## Ringoratter (Feb 13, 2011)

What is the kitchen kit? I did a search but it brought up too many threads to go through. We are just now getting into week 3 and this is a little scary to say the least. I know that dogs can choke on kibble just as easily as raw food and then there are raw hides, etc. All three of the little dogs eat fast. I sit there with them and watch closely. Our lab mix takes her time with her food so she doesn't concern me so much. I have researched doing the heimlich maneuver on dogs but not sure I could do it on the one little dog we have. I can't hold his mouth open to give him a pill or anything. He freaks out when he is restricted in any way.


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## whiteleo (Sep 7, 2008)

Kitchen kit consists of: Long tongs or hemostat to grab what dog might be choking on, wood block just big enough to put in mouth to prevent dog from biting you,
heavy gloves to prevent the same. Plastic bag to put items in and hang it where you feed the dogs.

The biggest issue is to know that the dog is in fact choking and not getting air, and not in fact regurgitating his food which happens quite often with newly transitioned dogs.


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## naturalfeddogs (Jan 6, 2011)

whiteleo said:


> Kitchen kit consists of: Long tongs or hemostat to grab what dog might be choking on, wood block just big enough to put in mouth to prevent dog from biting you,
> heavy gloves to prevent the same. Plastic bag to put items in and hang it where you feed the dogs.
> 
> The biggest issue is to know that the dog is in fact choking and not getting air, and not in fact regurgitating his food which happens quite often with newly transitioned dogs.


 Mine regurgitated theirs a few times when we started, and always reate it.


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## tracydr (Feb 25, 2011)

Yes, you have the correct thread, I agree, not enough detail.


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## RawFedDogs (Jun 16, 2008)

tracydr said:


> I recently saw a thread on the Doberman forum about a young Doberman who died while eating a large hunk of raw meat.


Whenever I feed boneless meat chunks, either the chunks are so large they can't get it in their mouth or small enough that they can swallow them whole. Most often its in 2" to 3" cubes. (I have big dogs).



> Also, has anyone heard anything about thiamine deficiency in raw fed dogs?


Thiamine (vitamin B1) is in muscle meat and particularly heavy in pork meat as well as pork liver, beef liver, and chicken liver. Thiamine deficiency usually shows up as Beriberi. I don't remember hearing of a dog with Beriberi. As long as you feed pork or liver pretty regularly, I don't see it as a problem. If you feed a prey model raw diet, it would be pretty difficult to have a thiamine deficiency.


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## tracydr (Feb 25, 2011)

Excellent. Wonder if dogs that have developed thiamine deficiency have been fed restricted diets with no variety? I think I need to stop worrying so much!
I just found out my dog has the gene for dilated cardiomyopathy and her mother is starting to have PVC's so was trying to see if there were any diet things I could do to help, all I did was freak myself out. Oh, except I did find that high doses of fish oil were recommended for dobes with cardio. And, possibly l-carnitine, co-enzyme q10 and beef heart, so I guess I found some useful information along the way.
Off to the health food store I will go!


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## rannmiller (Jun 27, 2008)

Hey just wanted to add my two cents although it seems like it's already been answered, but my Dobergirl has been fed raw since I brought her home and has never once had an issue with choking. So I'm guessing the people fed their dobes an inappropriately-sized "hunk" of meat and that's why the choking occurred. Sorry to hear about your pup's DCM, I haven't had my girl tested yet.


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## Celt (Dec 27, 2010)

I have to say that this thread makes me feel really nervous about feeding raw. How often does choking occur?


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## RawFedDogs (Jun 16, 2008)

Celt said:


> I have to say that this thread makes me feel really nervous about feeding raw. How often does choking occur?


Almost never. Before this thread I had heard of one case in 9 years of being on multiple discussion boards and reading well over 100,000 posts. That alone makes me wonder about these two dogs.


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## tracydr (Feb 25, 2011)

That's why I wonder if it might be unique to dobermans. Perhaps their airway anatomy is slightly different or something? Wish we had a vet with anesthesia and intubation experience that could chime in.
Please note, both of these dogs had airway obstructions. The other "choking" episodes are usually things stuck in the esophagus which are usually either swallowed back down or coughed back up. Those don't don't pose a breathing hazard.
I cut beef into 2 inch pieces and feed chicken quarters to my Doberman so probably safe. She is a gulper but seems to be slowing down the longer she is on the raw diet. When I first started she acted like she was starving all the time, which is part of why I switched to raw, I felt like she wasn't getting enough food from kibble and yet was still overweight by a few pounds.


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## RawFedDogs (Jun 16, 2008)

tracydr said:


> That's why I wonder if it might be unique to dobermans. Perhaps their airway anatomy is slightly different or something?


No its not unique to dobermans. Until this thread I have never heard of a doberman having this problem.


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## tracydr (Feb 25, 2011)

Well, there were two that actually died on Doberman talk. I could call one a strange occurrence but two?


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## CorgiPaws (Mar 31, 2009)

Sometimes I wonder how many of the horror stories on raw and choking are a bit fabricated. I've actually *never* heard of a dog choking on a RAW size-appropriate bone before. They're almost always cooked, or too small. I don't know of anyone first hand, either. 
Choking is a hazard period. With raw, with toys, with kibble, with that thing you forgot to pick up off your living room floor. 
It happens. 

When I was 6, I choked on a piece of mac n cheese, my brother picked me up by the ankles, and shook til it came out. (very resourceful.... do not try this at home)
Does this mean no one should ever eat pasta again? That it's super dangerous? I've had my own dogs choke, cough, hack on kibble before in the past. 

It does raise alarm, and it is a bit scary, I won't deny that, but to remove the risk of choking on one thing or another, one would have to place their dog in a sterile box.


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## Sunyoung (Feb 18, 2011)

tracydr said:


> Well, there were two that actually died on Doberman talk. I could call one a strange occurrence but two?


Keep in mind that just because something has a correlation doesn't mean one causes the other. There are always other factors to consider. 

And I'm very sorry to hear of these two Dobermans' deaths.


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## tracydr (Feb 25, 2011)

Thanks, everyone! Both dogs were eating hunks of meat. I'm guessing larger than 2" but not larger than their head. I usually either cut bite size or give whole pieces, if bone-in.
My breeder just spent 11K on three surgeries because my dog's sister ate a stick and perforated her bowel, lost 2/3 of her small intestine.
I had a lab require surgery once because she ate 5 gallons of pea gravel. Nearly lost her, 6 weeks pregnant with 9 puppies.
Dogs will be dogs!


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## BrownieM (Aug 30, 2010)

tem_sat said:


> Forgive me for bumping my above response. I assume this is one of the threads regarding the doberman you mentioned who had choked: Just lost our perfect dobie to raw feeding - Doberman Forum : Doberman Breed Dog Forums
> 
> From what is written so far, it seems to be difficult to get enough detail to ensure a consise response from many of the most experienced raw feeders. I am sorry to hear about this dog and I can understand your concern. I am wondering as well whether it may be advisable to dice boneless meat so as to avoid a large chunk going down unchewed.
> 
> -- Tara


My dogs are VERY good chewers - UNLESS it's boneless. They tend to gulp large chunks of boneless whole. I may start cutting boneless into bite-size chunks for this reason.


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## tem_sat (Jun 20, 2010)

No doubt, the same occurs with my doxie. I will ALWAYS, from now on, dice boneless meat. It's the boneless that concerns me, and not the bone-in.


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## CavePaws (Jan 25, 2011)

Hmmmm...A person on that forum says they almost lost their dog to Salmonella, Or E-coli...They wouldn't know because they didn't have the test done.

I wonder how true this is? If their dog really was almost lost to it and the other factors involved.

Anyway, our dog Tucker "choked" on a Kong toy I threw up too high in the air and he caught it as it was coming straight down...Just the perfect size to fit right into his throat but not go any further down or come back up. We are very lucky the vet is about 3 minutes away from us, they had to put him under to get it out, poor boy. They said we were lucky to have gotten him there in the amount of time we did, I agree, he looked horrible when it was happening and I was so scared he would die...BUT we haven't ever had anyone choke on food items...I've seen kibble hacked across the room a couple times from being eaten too fast...But raw food? Nope, I guess I'm lucky my dogs are fairly methodical chewers.


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

> My 15 year old daughter had taken the dogs outside to the barn aisle for their dinner. She came racing back to the house saying that Zakk was choking.


when i read this article, that's the line that struck me as tragic.

the one thing i learned was to watch my dogs eat. i think it's a good idea if possible.

i had a shih tzu who choked on a big piece of steak she thought she was stealing......and she could have died...except for the fact that i stuck my hand down her throat and pulled that piece out.

had there been some training involved, had there been what i call the choking kit....well, perhaps this would not have happened.

keep in mind that people choke all the time...some even die from it. does that mean we should not eat food?

dogs have choked on kibble....

unfortunately, gulpers come in all different sizes and species....the trick is to be there, be alert, and be trained no matter what you're feeding....

i'd hate to think that people will stop feeding raw based on these tragedies....there's always something around the corner that can kill us.


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