# A few questions please?



## ShanniBella (Jul 1, 2011)

I have had Bella on PMR since April and though the results have been excellent I'm still thinking something is missing in her diet. She has a history of skin and coat issues but since switching to RAW she has done a complete 360. My issue is with her head and ears where she still has thinning hair. Her coat on her body is beautiful but the lack of fur around her ears and head is driving me nuts! I feed her beef, chicken, turkey, pork, hearts, gizzard and liver as well as give her sardines in spring water a couple times a week. I'm thinking of adding fish oil to her raw meals daily as well as a supplement that also includes probiotics and enzymes. I figure at least try it anyways. I know that people say if you feed a variety of meats, bone, and organs that a dog shouldn't need supplementing but at this point I figured I should at least try it and see if it helps. I also want to know how often you all feed liver? I've been giving her chicken liver a few times a week. Here is the wholistic supplement I am giving her.

Wholistic Pet Organics Digest All Plus with Probiotics

Wholistic Digest-All Plus is truly the best enzyme product on the market! Not only does Wholistic Digest-All Plus contain a full range of human-grade, highly active enzymes and probiotics (10 billion CFUs per gram including a patented enzyme that demonstrates antibacterial activity) but it is the same quality as that used for human consumption and made in GMP-certified human manufacturing facilities! And now that its stability and efficacy has been increased and enhanced, Wholistic Digest-All Plus will deliver even more superior results for increased digestive health for your pet!

Ingredients:
Dried Aspergillus oryzae fermentation product, Dried Bacillus subtilis fermentation product, Dried Aspergillus niger fermentation product, Dried Trichoderma reesei fermentation product, Dried Rhizopus oryzae fermentation product extract, Dried Ananas comosus fermentation product, Dried Carica papaya fermentation extract product, Lactobacillus acidophilus, Bifidobacterium longum, maltodextrin.


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## GoingPostal (Sep 5, 2011)

My male has skin issues, we've added a ton of fish oil, made his coat softer but didn't really help the thinning, coconut oil seems to have helped more than anything although this time of year he looks mangy no matter what I do, just allergies. He's constantly got thin hair around his eyes/ears/head area but not enough that most people notice. I give liver 1-2 times a week and vary what animal it's from, turkey, chicken, beef, pork and rabbit is what I feed currently but I can only get beef kidney besides that, but they do get whole rabbits with organs.


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## ShanniBella (Jul 1, 2011)

GoingPostal said:


> My male has skin issues, we've added a ton of fish oil, made his coat softer but didn't really help the thinning, coconut oil seems to have helped more than anything although this time of year he looks mangy no matter what I do, just allergies. He's constantly got thin hair around his eyes/ears/head area but not enough that most people notice. I give liver 1-2 times a week and vary what animal it's from, turkey, chicken, beef, pork and rabbit is what I feed currently but I can only get beef kidney besides that, but they do get whole rabbits with organs.


Thanks for the advice  I have coconut oil....do you mix it into the raw food or do you use it as a topical? I was thinking of putting some on her skin around her ears and head. And her's isn't to noticeable to others as well.....only to me LOL!


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## DaneMama (Jun 27, 2008)

How much fat is in her diet? 

Also, how much bone do you feed? Every other day/every day?


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## ShanniBella (Jul 1, 2011)

DaneMama said:


> How much fat is in her diet?
> 
> Also, how much bone do you feed? Every other day/every day?


I'm still removing skin from chicken which is where the fat is correct? I feed bone everyday or else she gets loose stools, although, I try to do every other meal some days and she seems to do okay lately. I feed her twice a day. This morning she had liver, boneless skinless chicken thigh and a chicken back along with some hearts and gizzards. I've been leaving some fat on the chicken more so she gets used to it. Seeing as where I'm not giving her a ton of fatty meats would adding the fish oil help her?


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## twotonelover (Jan 10, 2011)

I'd say she probably needs a bit more fat in her diet  Fish and/or coconut oil would help. You can also start leaving a bit more skin/fat on the chicken and just slowly work up to not removing any of it. Just go slow and gauge her poops.

Oh and I give liver once a week. I cut it up into chunks and mix it with ground venison and a chicken egg or a couple quail eggs.


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## pogo (Aug 28, 2011)

She should be able to get at least some of the skin on chicken by now, unless she had major issues with transition. I'd say it's likely down to not enough fat in her diet


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## GoingPostal (Sep 5, 2011)

I mostly give it orally, I do rub it on his back when it's really bad but with two other dogs it's hard to keep them from licking it right off. My male is only less than a month into raw but he gets a lot of fatty beef heart and I don't skin/fat anything for him as he gets constipated easily, his coat looks great otherwise like yours but those few problem spots are still there, I do try to give an egg at least once a week too. Right now I am kind of playing around with the supplements, seeing if I can do either fish or coconut oil instead of both, trying to cut down on extra additions and see what works best. He was on nothing for the first couple weeks of raw but now his allergies are back and I just can't stand it.


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## ShanniBella (Jul 1, 2011)

I'm going to stick with using my wholistic digest all supplement and add the fish oil. I'm also going to start leaving a little more skin on her chicken which makes up most of her diet. Even when I give her pork and beef it's always lean cuts.


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## kady05 (Jul 29, 2011)

I bet once you add in more fat, you'll see a difference. Sounds like she's not getting much at all. Is there a reason you're still cutting skin off the chicken? 

Oh and FWIW, I've always given fish oil to my dogs, 2400mg daily. They also get Vitamin E 3x a week (400iu).


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## DaneMama (Jun 27, 2008)

Honestly I would start with either removing less skin OR adding the supplement....but not both. That would be a like a double dose of new stuff, and if she has a sensitive stomach I wouldn't chance it. 

Personally I would recommend leaving more fat/skin on her meat first before adding in supplements. That way she can get closer and closer to eating whole, untrimmed RMBs. 

After that I would start decreasing her bone content VERY gradually. For instance, instead of alternating bone in meals with boneless meals, just start adding more boneless meat to her bone in meals. Add in almond/walnut sized chunks at first and increase over the span of several weeks ONLY if she handles it without issue. 

If she does fine, add in slightly more boneless meat. If she doesn't do well, cut the amount of boneless meat you add in half. Go from there. 

After she's doing better on slightly more boneless meat, see if you can eliminate every other bone in meal. 

To me it makes WAY more sense to start feeding her a well balanced and appropriate PMR diet rather than continue to trim things and feed higher bone content than it does to start adding in supplements. If she's still having issues once you've added more natural fats (not supplemented fats) and cut out more bone from her regular diet....thats when I would turn to the aid of a supplement. IMO supplements are needed when the overall, well rounded diet isn't doing the best job it could (like if you were to still see hair loss after making the above changes). I'm in no way poo-pooing supplements....I give them to my girls as well, its just the overall principle of tweaking the diet first and then going from there. 

Good luck and keep us posted!


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

ShanniBella said:


> I'm going to stick with using my wholistic digest all supplement and add the fish oil. I'm also going to start leaving a little more skin on her chicken which makes up most of her diet. Even when I give her pork and beef it's always lean cuts.


since chicken accounts for most of her diet, she does need more fat.....so when you do feed pork and beef, try to get the fattier cuts and just feed less of it until she is used to it.

as to probiotics...the one i recommend and use is primal defense ultra.....both of my dogs do very well on it.

plus i give mercola's salmon oil, as it has no soy in it.....

but i would do as dane mama suggests....one thing at a time...introducing too much at once doesn't allow you to see what works and what doesn.t


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## ShanniBella (Jul 1, 2011)

Thanks everyone for the input! I will go the skin/fat route first and see what it does for her. I gave her a whole cornish game hen tonight and left half the skin on it. Will see how it goes


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## Dude and Bucks Mamma (May 14, 2011)

We give fish oil daily as well as feed organ daily. It's just easier on Dude if I give a little bit every day rather than more a few times a week and, while I'm at it, I just give Buck his too. 

As far as the hair, I would go with a lack of fat. Buck's hair thinned in those areas too and it was from lack of fat. You sound like you feed a pretty lean diet. Many stores and butchers will sell you their beef fat. We get beef fat from the butcher on base for anywhere between 10 and 20 cents per pound. They are more than happy to wrap it up for us. Before we had the flea infestation I could see that the hair on Buck's ears was getting thicker again. Then he scratched it all off because he is allergic to flea spit :/


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## EckoMac (Jun 1, 2012)

Bella is still having issues with skin? I bagged the skin I cut off and after a week of solid poo I started giving Ecko bits. Small pieces at a time with his backs until he could take it. Then I started rotating thighs and backs with skin. He can eat darn near anything now. Although, beef kidneys give him cannon butt, so I do chicken backs for breakfast the next morning to even it out. I spent more time calling the kids and Dawn to ask how Ecko's poop looks then asking how their day was. LOL!

I hope Bella gets straightened out. She is beautiful, and has already come a looooooong way from when we first met.


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## Sprocket (Oct 4, 2011)

Gunner has thinning hair around his head and cheeks. Its from playing with other dogs but I don't mind really because he has such a great time with them.


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## Gally (Jan 28, 2012)

ShanniBella said:


> Thanks everyone for the input! I will go the skin/fat route first and see what it does for her. I gave her a whole cornish game hen tonight and left half the skin on it. Will see how it goes


Maybe I missed it as I just skim read the rest of the thread but why are you still taking fat off of chicken and the game hen? Is there a medical reason?


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## SterlingValleyGoldens (Aug 12, 2012)

We added in solid gold seal meal powder and I swear that stuff will grow fur on anything! We've seen a dramatic difference after whelping for one of our goldens!


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