# Training, dog whisperer, 100% positive, shock collars



## bridget246 (Oct 26, 2011)

I do a lot of reading about dog training both on the net, in books, and with as many trainers as I can find that will give me the time to speak with them. Here is the impression I'm getting from it all.

100% positive training? What is that? Everyone seems to define it differently and I swear those who do it will look at others who are doing and say they aren't doing 100% positive training. I don't even understand it. I think dogs, humans or just teaching is general is done best with a positive actions, good imagination and a willing to listen and adapt. But that doesn't equate to 100% positive training. I haven't seen anyone ever use 100% positive training in my opinion and I doubt I ever will. That is unless they are being a little more nice with the 100% term than I am. It really seems like a fad to me for people who are against dog abuse rather than an actually training set.

Dog Whisperer. People on the net for the most part don't agree at all with him. They recommend finding good trainers. Without any real experience on finding a training it is hard to find good ones. I haven't had a trainer yet that help me read Bridgets body language and adjust what I'm doing based on what I'm seeing. I've read a few books that touch on this. I'm personally trying to get as many methods as I can to teach the same thing under my belt so I can help out as many dogs as possible. It just seems a little closed minded to me when people look at a trainer and focus so much on what they are doing wrong. I focus on what I like and what if anything that I think I could use. Without him I wouldn't be so interested in learning how to read the body language of dogs. Seeing him work also helped me a lot with timing. Both things that I've been struggling with since I started my dog training. 

Shock Collars. Why are people so quick to turn to them. I wanted one and I still do. Not in a hurry to get it though because I'm not where I want to be when using it. My ideal shock collar would have a vibrate and a sound along with a shock. I'd pick one to use as a distance reward and the other as a recall. The shock, only used in life or death situation that might happen when training off leash. I wouldn't use the shock to train anything. My number 1 goal with training Bridget is to build a closer bond with her. I want it to be fun. So here is my problem. We have a ton of training places here that are going with straight collar training to get rid of those bad behaviors. I'd never call myself a 100% positive person but that doesn't seem like much fun at all for the dog. Even worse is that they are using these collars to shock the first day they put them on. I admit, I struggled a lot with Bridget. It was that very struggle that made me not buy a shock collar a long time ago. I didn't want to use it to correct bad behavior. However, I think they can be awesome for someone who doesn't have as much time as I do to work with their dogs. Their awesome because they are better than any other quick training method I've seen before. The good ones don't actually hurt the dog beyond fear. But for dogs who are seriously interested in taking their dogs as they can these devices will probably hold you back if their being used to correct bad behavior or train new tricks with shocks.


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## Maxy24 (Mar 5, 2011)

I consider myself a positive dog trainer, this doesn't mean I only use positive reinforcement but that I avoid using anything that causes pain or fear. Punishment when I train is basically used to prevent self reinforcement. I remove a dog from the window he's barking out because barking can be fun and rewarding all by itself. My punishments involve removal and time outs. I make it so my dog rarely ever fails during training because I don't train through punishment, I train mainly through positive reinforcement so I need the dog to do things right in order to reward him. That is why I train in baby steps. I don't train a recall by letting the dog off leash and trying to make him come. That comes much later, once the dog has learned coming is awesome. 

I don't like the dog whisperer because he trains using mainly punishment, and not gentle punishment. I focus on the bad things because his entire philosophy is IMO, and that of many professionals, wrong (that dogs look at the family as a pack and need an alpha and will automatically want to listen to the alpha and if their is no alpha he'll become alpha and try to own everyone in the house, I think it's bologna). I also think his training methods are abusive and dangerous (his TV show agrees that they are dangerous which is why it says not to use his methods at home). Since he relies on punishment for training he must make the dog fail and in the case of aggression this means make the dog behave aggressively and this of course is dangerous. A positive trainer could work with an aggressive dog until he is cured and never once get the dog to behave aggressively, so it's safer and a whole lot more pleasant for the dog. People talk about all of the wonderful things about him, how he promotes exercise, and pit bulls, and working with your dog. None of these are training methods, I'm not talking about how he is as a person I'm talking about him as a dog trainer (or whatever it is he calls himself), his training methods are horrendous so yes, I'm going to focus on that. The good things are not training things, they are lifestyle/care tips that may have an affect on behavior. I also think his understanding of dog body language is not that great, I remember him seeing a calming signal (dog lifting a paw) and saying the dog wanted to hunt him and that's why it lifted his paw...yeah. The fact that he thinks there is anything calm about the dogs who have stopped trying to get up from the alpha roll is saddening, those dogs are wound incredibly tight and stressed out of their minds. lack of movement does not mean calm. Yeah, he has great timing, it's probably one of the only reasons he has not been killed by a dog yet.


I don't like shock collar simply because I think shocking a dog is wrong. I'd rather keep a dog on a long lead or in fences for his entire life. But I do think any dog can be trained without one. That said, when used ONLY for recall and ONLY as a backup in case the dog is in a life or death situation and decides not to listen, I won't judge others for using one. but only after the recall has been worked on and is super strong. The collar should not be used because you are failing as a trainer, it should be used after your dog rocks at recall but because you are just afraid something could go wrong. The same really goes for all punishment, don't punish a dog until he is certain of how to succeed. Punishment has no place in teaching behaviors.


Check out Susan Garrett, her dogs are some of the best trained, happiest dogs I've seen. 
If you are interested in dog body language check out some of Patricia McConnell's books (especially "the other end of the leash") and research calming signals.
I also love Jean Donaldson's book "the culture clash", my favorite.
Suzanne Clothier has a book called "bones would rain from the sky" that talks about building a strong, positive bond with your dog. It's been a while since I read it but I recall liking it a lot.

For positive ways to teach commands/tricks/work on some bad behaviors check out kikopup's channel on youtube. She is about as close as you get to 100% positive: kikopup's Channel - YouTube


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## IslandPaws4Raw (Sep 7, 2011)

> Shock Collars. Why are people so quick to turn to them. I wanted one and I still do. Not in a hurry to get it though because I'm not where I want to be when using it. My ideal shock collar would have a vibrate and a sound along with a shock. I'd pick one to use as a distance reward and the other as a recall. The shock, only used in life or death situation that might happen when training off leash. I wouldn't use the shock to train anything.


I think that every training tool has it's place. "Shock" collars and pinch collars should only be used for fine tuning behaviors that a dog already knows very well IMO. People rush to use these things because they think they can get quicker results. Sadly, with our instant gratification culture, we impose these methods unfairly on our pets, rather than really taking the TIME to train them properly. I think it's wrong to put a shock collar or a pinch collar for that matter in an amateur trainer's hands. With either training method, your timing has to be impeccable. Otherwise you can easily undo good behavior as much as you train. Can you start out using these methods....absolutely, but you better know what the heck you're doing. Sounds like you have a fair way to go before attempting the radio collars.



> The shock, only used in life or death situation that might happen when training off leash.


This, in itself, is a bad idea, and shows how NOT to use a shock collar. Suppose your dog has only been introduced to the positive beep and recall. What do you think will happen if you are panicking in an unsafe situation, and choose that moment to TAP the dog. She will not have any earthly IDEA that means "Follow command now!" and your unsafe situation will then become even more unsafe.



> Maxy24
> 
> 
> Check out Susan Garrett, her dogs are some of the best trained, happiest dogs I've seen.
> ...


^^^^^^^^ Agree agree agree

Susan Garret and Kikopup are fantastic trainers to follow!


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## committed2excellence (May 2, 2011)

Keep in mind, collars are training tools. Do your research and you will find that the uneven pressure that a flat collar puts on the dog's trachea is far worse long term than using (proper name) an electronic collar or a prong collar. These tools may seem barbaric to those who do not know how to use them properly. However, they are effective tools. I train shelter dogs and at the shelter they like to use the slip leads. Those are fine too. For a novice trainer, it will take them longer to train a dog though and it probably won't provide the different escalations needed for certain dogs. Any setting that I would use on a collar for a dog, I would use on myself to demonstrate to a client. I can often take a young puppy and put on a thin prong collar. I never have to do anything but hold the lead and he can correct himself when it comes to things like heeling and recalls. As far as crowning ANY trainer for how you see their dogs portrayed on videos and in books, hahahahaa. I PROMISE you that the trainers with the top dogs worldwide have used all of these tools and all of them at some point have used harsh corrections as they were needed. They simply don't show the public all of the tools in their tool belts. Why you ask? Because if they did folks like you wouldn't purchase their books and buy their DVDs. How do I know? I've trained with them. We all strive to train 100% positive. However, every dog is not designed for that system and sometimes other methods must be used. To begin to grasp this, you have to understand a lot of dog psychology and I would suggest working at least 30 or 40 different dogs to give it time to sink in. As far as timeout are concerned, I see that you haven't trained Malinois or harder bulldogs. They remind me of myself as a kid. Put me in my room? Great, I will entertain myself. These dogs can self gratify for days on end. LOL. In the end, it's all love and however you get your dog to do what you need him to do is fine.




Maxy24 said:


> I consider myself a positive dog trainer, this doesn't mean I only use positive reinforcement but that I avoid using anything that causes pain or fear. Punishment when I train is basically used to prevent self reinforcement. I remove a dog from the window he's barking out because barking can be fun and rewarding all by itself. My punishments involve removal and time outs. I make it so my dog rarely ever fails during training because I don't train through punishment, I train mainly through positive reinforcement so I need the dog to do things right in order to reward him. That is why I train in baby steps. I don't train a recall by letting the dog off leash and trying to make him come. That comes much later, once the dog has learned coming is awesome.
> 
> I don't like the dog whisperer because he trains using mainly punishment, and not gentle punishment. I focus on the bad things because his entire philosophy is IMO, and that of many professionals, wrong (that dogs look at the family as a pack and need an alpha and will automatically want to listen to the alpha and if their is no alpha he'll become alpha and try to own everyone in the house, I think it's bologna). I also think his training methods are abusive and dangerous (his TV show agrees that they are dangerous which is why it says not to use his methods at home). Since he relies on punishment for training he must make the dog fail and in the case of aggression this means make the dog behave aggressively and this of course is dangerous. A positive trainer could work with an aggressive dog until he is cured and never once get the dog to behave aggressively, so it's safer and a whole lot more pleasant for the dog. People talk about all of the wonderful things about him, how he promotes exercise, and pit bulls, and working with your dog. None of these are training methods, I'm not talking about how he is as a person I'm talking about him as a dog trainer (or whatever it is he calls himself), his training methods are horrendous so yes, I'm going to focus on that. The good things are not training things, they are lifestyle/care tips that may have an affect on behavior. I also think his understanding of dog body language is not that great, I remember him seeing a calming signal (dog lifting a paw) and saying the dog wanted to hunt him and that's why it lifted his paw...yeah. The fact that he thinks there is anything calm about the dogs who have stopped trying to get up from the alpha roll is saddening, those dogs are wound incredibly tight and stressed out of their minds. lack of movement does not mean calm. Yeah, he has great timing, it's probably one of the only reasons he has not been killed by a dog yet.
> 
> ...


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## bridget246 (Oct 26, 2011)

I have Patricia McConnell's books. Going to look into the one suggested here and look up the other authors as well. 

It really confuses me how anyone could get any real training methods from the dog whisperer as to how to do anything. I don't see the training that is done with the dog on the few shows that I've watched. I've only seen him hightlight some problems I didn't spend enough time thinking on which lead me to do more research on them. Without his show I wouldn't have noticed those problems so early on. The show is only 20+ minutes long so most the training we the viewers don't get to see. At least I haven't seen them.

What is up with the pack leader thing being a problem? The alpha row I did a Bridget a long time ago only scared her away from me for about 2 weeks she was cautious of everything she did around me. I gained her trust through working with her on positive non scary stuff that always end with her success. Particica McConnell's taught me a lot about that. All the books in the world doesn't help the novice trainer much when they have a dog that attacked them every single time they tried to touch it and telling Bridget no to something was the start of a war every single time. When she gave up on that she will still attack my GF all the time and attack me whenever she taught my guard was down. If I picked up something with both hands my dog would run up to bite me. I looked for help wherever I could find it and had to work with what I could afford. I'm a much better trainer now and no doubt a novice compared to those here giving me advice. 

I guess, I don't understand the pack leader thing because I believe I got there by supplying Bridget with support. It is what I believe she needed wanted all along. So many things to fear in the world and she probably responded with all them with a bite to keep them away. It appeared to me that she made me her pack leader based on trust and not fear since I've kept her safe through it all with plenty of rewards. Is there anything wrong if a dog chooses to look up to you for everything? It is a scary thought and never something I actually thought would happen to me. But isn't that a pack leader? I might have have been using the wrong terminology if it such a negative thing.


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## Liz (Sep 27, 2010)

I have worked teaching obedience classes from puppy kindergarten through advanced obedience. We always have a goal in class - generally basic household manners and formal obedience. There are so many tools to use but it all depends on the dog and the handler. I have had people with traditionally almost self training dogs not be able to even get them in a sit and other people who are dedicated and coordinated take difficult dogs and work them to high levels with what looks like ease. We also used everything from flat collars to electronic collars again depending on the needs of the client and dog. My dogs (shelties and collies) are seen as super easy and for the most part they are but they can be demanding. One of my girls was used to demo clicker training many years ago in a trainer seminar and was very frustrated trying to figure out what was desired by the trainer. She never did take to clicker training - show her what to do, name it and she did it. Make her figure it out and she would walk away and ignore you. They self entertain and work is not essential a nice pizza box could keep them busy in the yard for a couple days.L
I don't understand the negatives towards pack leader either. All good things come from the people in the house and we are actually very minimalist on treats and toys as I want them to focus one me and being with me. They are happy and playful dogs. I that's my two them and they feel comfortable in new or potentially scary situations because it is my problem to make sure I don't place them in a situation they can't handle. Any I think you educate yourself, take classes and see what is best for you and your dog, it may not be what works for me and mine.


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## eternalstudent (Jul 22, 2010)

I think we would all like to be able tot train our pups with 100% positive methods but I can not think of anyone who has managed it. 

I don't use a prong collar and in parts of the uk they have banned the use of shock collars! I do use a bridal, and am currently using it on my small pup so he never thinks about pulling.

But that is definitely not a positive method of teaching and I am partly annoyed with myself for doing it but...... If my dogs pull then I will have 200 lb of dogs taking me for a walk .

I have never watched the dog whisperer and never will. I have also never watched any other training video. Mainly because unless I knew them or had see them and spoken to them I am ever distrusting of what I see. Yes not fair but I would rather go to a seminar and watch how people interact, speak and body language then I will make a decision.

I do like books and will read them till I am blue in the face, and there are some great authors. But I think so long as every dog owner knows what they are trying to achieve and they are of good moral standing then the dog will be fine.


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## bridget246 (Oct 26, 2011)

Liz said:


> She never did take to clicker training - show her what to do, name it and she did it. Make her figure it out and she would walk away and ignore you. They self entertain and work is not essential a nice pizza box could keep them busy in the yard for a couple days.L


I wish Bridget would self entertain. She will cry if she goes to long without a job. Not a loud cry. She will lay down and tears can be seen in her eyes. Makes me feel so bad so I find even more jobs for her. I don't need to tell her anything for most jobs. Once she knows it she will just do it until it is done.



bridget246 said:


> I have Patricia McConnell's books. Going to look into the one suggested here and look up the other authors as well.


I almost brought her book. Sorry I was confused. The book I have is 101 tricks by Kara Sundance. Going to order the other side of the leash soon if I can't find it at the library.



committed2excellence said:


> Keep in mind, collars are training tools. Do your research and you will find that the uneven pressure that a flat collar puts on the dog's trachea is far worse long term than using (proper name) an electronic collar or a prong collar. These tools may seem barbaric to those who do not know how to use them properly. However, they are effective tools. I train shelter dogs and at the shelter they like to use the slip leads. Those are fine too. For a novice trainer, it will take them longer to train a dog though and it probably won't provide the different escalations needed for certain dogs. Any setting that I would use on a collar for a dog, I would use on myself to demonstrate to a client. I can often take a young puppy and put on a thin prong collar. I never have to do anything but hold the lead and he can correct himself when it comes to things like heeling and recalls. As far as crowning ANY trainer for how you see their dogs portrayed on videos and in books, hahahahaa. I PROMISE you that the trainers with the top dogs worldwide have used all of these tools and all of them at some point have used harsh corrections as they were needed. They simply don't show the public all of the tools in their tool belts. Why you ask? Because if they did folks like you wouldn't purchase their books and buy their DVDs. How do I know? I've trained with them. We all strive to train 100% positive. However, every dog is not designed for that system and sometimes other methods must be used. To begin to grasp this, you have to understand a lot of dog psychology and I would suggest working at least 30 or 40 different dogs to give it time to sink in. As far as timeout are concerned, I see that you haven't trained Malinois or harder bulldogs. They remind me of myself as a kid. Put me in my room? Great, I will entertain myself. These dogs can self gratify for days on end. LOL. In the end, it's all love and however you get your dog to do what you need him to do is fine.


I will try to get her on video this weekend entering into a place with distractions. I know I'm doing something wrong. Do GSD's not like to entertain themselves? 



IslandPaws4Raw said:


> This, in itself, is a bad idea, and shows how NOT to use a shock collar. Suppose your dog has only been introduced to the positive beep and recall. What do you think will happen if you are panicking in an unsafe situation, and choose that moment to TAP the dog. She will not have any earthly IDEA that means "Follow command now!" and your unsafe situation will then become even more unsafe.


That was kind of the point. The no idea thing. The general idea is that it freezes her allowing me to use other methods of regaining her attention because she has apparently locked onto something else besides me. I don't think it is as wrong as you make it seem. Though I doubt I'd ever be in that situation, at least I hope I wouldn't.

Last question for now. People are asking me for advice on how best to train after looking at Bridget. Which is kind of funny because I'm still seeking out advice. I want to give them the best advice possible without stepping out of areas where I feel most comfortable. What is worse is that this is usually happens in dog parks and if the dog doesn't have any training at home it is so hard to teach someone something there. I still tried my best and let them know upfront that I'm just starting myself a few months back. Overall we did have some success.


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## eternalstudent (Jul 22, 2010)

bridget246 said:


> Last question for now. People are asking me for advice on how best to train after looking at Bridget. Which is kind of funny because I'm still seeking out advice. I want to give them the best advice possible without stepping out of areas where I feel most comfortable. What is worse is that this is usually happens in dog parks and if the dog doesn't have any training at home it is so hard to teach someone something there. I still tried my best and let them know upfront that I'm just starting myself a few months back. Overall we did have some success.


The only advice I give people is what I HAVE done. I will pass on suggestions but I try to make it clear that I don't know if they work. otherwise when people ask questions I will say what I did and what the outcome was.

I really dislike it when people give advice then when you act on it, it does not work as expected; then you find out that they have not done it or carried it out!!


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## committed2excellence (May 2, 2011)

Believe me, you do not want a dog that self gratifies. It makes your job 1000 times harder. You need a teammate. I don't want to speculate and I will let you know my thoughts when I see the video. You can PM if you don't want it public




bridget246 said:


> I wish Bridget would self entertain. She will cry if she goes to long without a job. Not a loud cry. She will lay down and tears can be seen in her eyes. Makes me feel so bad so I find even more jobs for her. I don't need to tell her anything for most jobs. Once she knows it she will just do it until it is done.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## jiml (Jun 29, 2010)

This, in itself, is a bad idea, and shows how NOT to use a shock collar. Suppose your dog has only been introduced to the positive beep and recall. What do you think will happen if you are panicking in an unsafe situation, and choose that moment to TAP the dog. She will not have any earthly IDEA that means "Follow command now!" and your unsafe situation will then become even more unsafe.>>>>

agreed. although i understand what maxy is saying. IF a dog is to be trained w an ecollar the dog must be taught what the ecollar means. And once it is taught followup is necessary over time.


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## Dude and Bucks Mamma (May 14, 2011)

For me, I will only use shock collars when teaching something where disobedience = death. Our fence is a four foot, chain link fence aka see through and easily scaleable. On the other side of our fence is a busy, high speed road with blind turns, bears, lions, whitetails, elk, coyotes, and potentially wolves if he wandered far enough. We don't live directly next to the road but it is within easy wandering distance. We walk along it on our walks so within short human walking distance. I can't imagine what would happen if Buck got out of the yard.

If Buck started jumping the fence I wouldn't hesitate to use a shock collar to teach him to stay in the yard if necessary. I would resort to it first, but I wouldn't rule it out as a tool for training. Instead, though, we chose to take a different route. We bought a small plastic pen (similar to an x-pen but it's the plastic one you can buy at both Petsmart and Babies 'R' Us) and from day one he spent time in it every day. When he got big enough to climb out he was put right back in it. We can still put him in it and, while he could easily jump out of it, he knows he isn't allowed to. Basically, we taught him to respect fences no matter what the height is. 

In addition to that, we just don't leave him outside alone. There are a number of reasons for that. They are intact males. Our fence isn't secure enough for large dogs. There is a new trend where teenagers steal dogs from yards, beat them, then dump them back into their yards. An elderly sheltie didn't live through the ordeal. We also have a gate in the back that, although we have a lock on it, it can still be cut. Right before we moved in, the neighborhood teenagers ran around and opened all of the gates for the dogs as a "prank". Anyhow, I digress.

I can't remember who it was but someone else on this forum used a shock collar to teach her dog to stay far away from the water because they lived in an area that had a ton of alligators. You don't get a second chance with animals like bears and gators.


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