# Why raw is not the best choice?



## Amy18 (May 17, 2011)

So i've been feeding Lexie raw for about a month now and she's doing very well on it. Her coat is shiny and soft, her poops are tiny, she enjoys eating and was a bit underweight at first but that was solved by upping her intake.
I'm also a member of a yorkie site where the topic of raw feeding came up recently and i was shocked to see how many people there look down on the raw diet, especially PMR.

They pointed out a few things about raw that i'd like to get your opinions on. One person said,

"I don't feed or recommend raw. Before starting this kind of diet, please make sure none of the following would be something you'd be concerned about your pup consuming. And if you do have concerns, find out what needs to be done to make sure these things aren't present in the meat that you feed.

E. coli
Salmonella
Campylobacter
Neospora
Trichinella
Toxoplasmosis
Brucellosis
MRSA
Anthracis
Trematoda
Mesocestoides
Taeniasis
Etc.

Of course not all of these are present in certain places and some are only found in particular species. Some are rare. Some can be found in kibble too. Some things can be killed by freezing at certain temps for specific periods while others can't and there is a potential of reactivation when thawed. Companies who make premade raw foods do some testing. What testing do they do? Is this adequate for you and your pup?

Dogs can and do choke on bones, even raw bones. They can tear up intestines leading to emergency surgery, enemas, and potentially death.

Prey model diets are balanced by owners or nutritionists without the credentials to decide what a balanced diet is. Veterinary nutritionists (veterinarians who are members of the ACVN) will usually help balance a prey model diet, but they generally do not support feeding this way. When trying to figure out if a pup's diet is balanced (prey model raw or homecooked), a veterinary nutritionist should be consulted. Unbalanced diets can lead to blood and bone problems (very quickly in puppies).

Before straying from an AAFCO approved kibble or canned food, remember that just because there aren't a ton of reports of alternative diets negatively affecting pets, that doesn't mean they don't exist. They just aren't always talked about online.

And most vets try to redirect their clients to AAFCO approved foods not because they don't know what they're talking about, but because they are about your pets. Next time when a vet says they don't agree with feeding raw or even homecooked, maybe ask them why. Some will have old cases of very serious problems with these diets. I know my vet does".


Being new to raw i'm not sure how much of this is false but it has put a little doubt on if this is the right choice for Lexie, another comment that stood out to me was,

"For wolves, almost *all* raw bones (esp fragments) are digested with fur surrounding them - thereby protecting the GI during digestion."

If any of you could shed some light on this topic i'd love to hear what you all think. Thanks


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## OnyxDog (Jun 15, 2011)

I can't really comment on most of this but...



> Prey model diets are balanced by owners or nutritionists without the credentials to decide what a balanced diet is. Veterinary nutritionists (veterinarians who are members of the ACVN) will usually help balance a prey model diet, but they generally do not support feeding this way. When trying to figure out if a pup's diet is balanced (prey model raw or homecooked), a veterinary nutritionist should be consulted. Unbalanced diets can lead to blood and bone problems (very quickly in puppies).


As far as I know, most people do not have the credentials to decide what a balanced diet for THEMSELVES is. Last time I checked, I'm pretty healthy... even though I don't eat a perfectly balanced meal every time. If you are smart enough to feed yourself, you are smart enough to feed your dog! Balance comes over time, with feeding a variety of meats, bones, and organs! 

Oh, and if you need proof that it IS the best diet... take a look at your dog. You said it yourself, her coat is shiny and soft, her poops are tiny, and she enjoys eating!


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## SpooOwner (Oct 1, 2010)

So basically you're concerned about (1) bacteria and (2) bones. OK. (1) Bacteria - underlying this concern is the assumption that dogs are as susceptible to food borne bacteria as humans. This assumption is incorrect. Dogs can process out these bacteria without ill effect due to higher acidity in the stomach and shorter digestive tract. (2) Bones - again, the author mistakenly assumes that bones cause irritation of the GI tract. In fact, most bones don't irritate the GI tract. The only bones you really need to stay away from are weight bearing bones of land mammals.

If you search the archives, you'll find that these questions have been posed many times.


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## BrownieM (Aug 30, 2010)

OnyxDog said:


> I can't really comment on most of this but...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Agreed. A healthy dog is a healthy dog. You don't need a rocket scientist to determine that.


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## trikerdon (May 14, 2011)

This is one of the reasons I am glad I don't have a large dog or more than one. 
I can afford to buy meats, etc., at the same stores I buy my own. All are fit for human consumption. I do not feed her things that people give me, or stuff that the meat man doesn't want or sell. I don't use road kill, etc., 
I do this because I get the best for my dog and feel that meats sold at my supermarket are not contaminated. Again, I have a small dog and it doesn't cost me much more to feed her 8 Oz's a day than it would kibble.
Don't mean to step on people's toes here but it does give me chills to read about road kill and things they find laying around. Sorry.
I also worry about not feeding her what she needs (vitamins, minerals, etc.) I'm trying to find out more about these things. It is hard to find anything on the Internet because people are also not informed about raw and write stuff which they have no idea what they are talking about. One says just cook the meat, others say no don't cook it. I get so confused...
I also do not know how to plan her meals. Right now I'm just giving her different things each day, I tried to chop up some carrots, celery, Brussels sprouts and cauliflower. She ate it but I had mixed it up with store bought hamburger, prior to reading a post not to give the hamburger because it might give them indigestion (which I think it did)
Just got a book from Amazon.com: Dr. Pitcairn's New Complete Guide to Natural Health for Dogs and Cats" and Raw Dog Food: Make It Easy for You and Your Dog"
I hope I can learn something from these.


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## BrownieM (Aug 30, 2010)

trikerdon said:


> This is one of the reasons I am glad I don't have a large dog or more than one.
> I can afford to buy meats, etc., at the same stores I buy my own. All are fit for human consumption. I do not feed her things that people give me, or stuff that the meat man doesn't want or sell. I don't use road kill, etc.,
> I do this because I get the best for my dog and feel that meats sold at my supermarket are not contaminated. Again, I have a small dog and it doesn't cost me much more to feed her 8 Oz's a day than it would kibble.
> Don't mean to step on people's toes here but it does give me chills to read about road kill and things they find laying around. Sorry.
> ...


Hate to break it to you, but supermarket meat is NOT uncontaminated. In fact, a surprisingly large percentage of supermarket chicken is contaminated with salmonella (I don't remember the exact percentage.) Of course, salmonella really isn't an issue for healthy dogs.


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## candiceb (Jan 22, 2010)

Just wanted to throw in my two cents here. I know veterinarians. I know professors who teach future veterinarians. The nutritional curriculum they are taught is based on the assumption that dogs (and cats) are omnivores. The textbooks themselves preach the virtues of "high quality proteins" derived from corn and soy. I may not be a nutritionist, but I've taken nutrition classes, I've taken animal science classes, and I've done lots of independent reading of books and research papers discussing the dietary needs and habits of wolves. I also know that dogs are genetically and physiologically wolves. Yes they have some minor differences, mostly behavioral. That's why they're a subspecies (_Canis lupus familiaris_). 

I also know that in other parts of the world, home-made and raw diets are more encouraged and accepted than they are in the United States. I've seen European dogs firsthand, and I think over there they're doing better than we are for their dogs. I have seen the changes in my dogs over the last 16 months since we started feeding raw, and the results have been incredible. And it's not as though I was feeding my dogs Pedigree or Iams; my dogs were eating Taste of the Wild grain-free kibble, and Wellness Core 95% canned meat. And a slew of other supplements. Now, they eat 80% raw meat, 10% bone, and 10% organ, give or take the percentages. They eat a variety of food, mostly red meat, and they are by far healthier than they were 16 months ago. Their coats are in excellent condition, their teeth are in excellent condition, they don't have an obnoxious "doggy" odor or breath, and their stools are consistently small and firm. 

Ask yourself these questions. If raw meat was so dangerous for dogs, how did the species survive so long until kibble was invented some 60 years ago? How do wolves continue as a species? If the raw diet was so terrible, why do some vets recommend it? Are those vets who do recommend it (who typically have more specialized education than a general practice vet) somehow less-educated? Is there something they don't know?

There are risks when dogs eat whole bones. There are risks when dogs eat kibble. So many people act like kibble is perfectly safe, but it isn't. One of the dogs from my childhood choked and died on kibble. I found her body. I saw the not-well-chewed kibble spilled from her dead mouth. That's not a pretty picture and nothing any child should have to see. But it's proof that kibble is not the "golden child" that it's made out to be by so many. Anything in life comes with risks. And there are other problems associated with kibble. It does not do anything for dental care, which is why 80% of adult (kibble-fed) dogs have plaque and gum disease. Imagine feeding your child vitamin-fortified cheese puffs for every meal, and never giving them a toothbrush. And that's another thing. What little we do know about human nutrition, we know that we absorb nutrients best from fresh, whole foods. Processed foods and added vitamins simply don't work as well. So why are dogs any different? Why is it okay to give them an overcooked, extruded, carb-and-meat paste with the vitamins literally sprayed on afterward? Who would think that was okay for humans? No one. 

Unfortunately with raw feeding, you are far outnumbered by people who feed kibble, and I will tell you right now that there are many people who will vehemently tell you exactly why you're wrong and you're going to kill your dogs (or make them vicious, blood-thirsty, parasite-infected, or whatever). I want you to know that probably 8 out of 10 people that you tell about raw feeding will not agree with you. But do what you like. If you stick with raw, read the available information, do your own research, and know what your responses are to questions people will inevitably ask. If you can't handle it, then I wish you the best.

Oh, and for what it's worth, the International Wolf Center feeds its wolves a prey model raw diet. Only they just call it "food". Deer carcasses, beaver carcasses, chickens, etc. They post videos on Youtube weekly of their wolves, and many clips show the wolves eating. I watch them regularly, and the food they eat is not always, or even a majority of the time, encased in hair. Just food for thought.


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## Amy18 (May 17, 2011)

thanks everyone, really puts my mind at ease. I make sure to buy high quality meats from the markets or butchers and only feed chicken bones and other small bird bones that i know she could safely eat. Candiceb i agree there will always be people who will try to sway me from raw but as long as i follow everything i've researched and learned especially here i should have no worries.


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## trikerdon (May 14, 2011)

BrownieM said:


> Hate to break it to you, but supermarket meat is NOT uncontaminated. In fact, a surprisingly large percentage of supermarket chicken is contaminated with salmonella (I don't remember the exact percentage.) Of course, salmonella really isn't an issue for healthy dogs.


 I should not of said that meat at the supermarket isn't contaiminated or made that impression. But I still feel that it is safer than other places you can get toss offs or food they can't sell to them.


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## RaisingWolves (Mar 19, 2011)

Here is my boxer turning 10 in a few months. He was fed a home cooked diet the first year of his life, then switched to raw. In his life he has never had worms or bacteria poisoning. I guess we got lucky?  I know 5, 6 year old boxers that have a lot more grey hair and look older than him. I believe a poor diet ages a lot faster.


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## FL Cracker (May 4, 2011)

Amy18 said:


> One person said,
> 
> "I don't feed or recommend raw. Before starting this kind of diet, please make sure none of the following would be something you'd be concerned about your pup consuming. And if you do have concerns, find out what needs to be done to make sure these things aren't present in the meat that you feed.
> 
> ...


I would put money on 99.9% of the people here have never had any of these problems with raw feeding their dogs. I'm pretty sure the person on that other forum could not give 5 symptoms of any one of the above issues...you pick one. They most likely copied and pasted this off of yet another clueless idiot that formed their own close minded opinion regarding a raw diet.
Dog's get into everything...I live in the city...yet Racoons, Opossum, Rat's, Rabbit, Squirrel, Frog's, Birds, Lizzards, and so on and so on....defecate in our yard nightly....now I don't smell it...but you can bank that my dog's do...they eat it...dirt....sticks...lick everything...roll in it...and so on. 
I feel rather comfortable feeding fresh whole chicken...liver....beef...venison...lamb....ect.

As stated...the human...and animal body is much more complex than I believe is considered. Think I'm wrong....take a look at some of the emanciated dog's that were found in ditches...starved and left for dead....but found. They were fed....and rehabilitated....and thrive without problems. Did they have an appropriated "balanced" diet?

Regarding choking on bones...yep...they sure can...and sticks, balls, bones, rocks, kids toy's, water bottle caps, plastic bags, I could go on all day. Same rules apply...watch and take care of your dog...do you leave choke potentials all over your house...or do you pick them up so the dog does not have the potential to choke? Watch them while they eat...when choke potential is highest...and be done with it.

I find it "odd" that some people will condemn raw feeding...yet grab some half wit article written by someone who has zero experience with raw feeding....let alone has not spent 10 minutes reading up on the discipline. I would guess these people also have a problem with me hunting for my food...versus going to the grocery store and buying a steak because it's more humane....unreal.

Amy18, this is not directed at you...but for those who are un-informed...brash....and close minded to a raw diet to the point of being judgmental against "us".
To be honest...they may as well get into "my kibble is better than yours routine"....yet they can't tell you what kibble was fed to dog's 150 years ago can they...or what "wild dog's" eat. 
I will give you one more example. I hunt in WV every fall...and one afternoon...I hear some dog's barking...and obviously on the hunt. As I sat in my stand...I could hear them coming...and within 10 minutes....watched a doe and two little ones on the move....and within seconds after here came a pack of dog's.
Now I expected to see coyotes...and the first two that passed by me were...followed by a Beagle/patch hound...then some sort of cross...followed by another domestic dog that went "wild". It was the craziest thing I had ever seen...and it really surprised me. A few minutes later...that doe circled back...with only one little one in tow.
That next day, I got on one of the quads...to take a ride to where I thought that pack downed that other little one...and sure enough...found it.
All that was left of that deer was femur bones, pelvis, skull....everything else was eaten...not a scrap left. 
These dog's (even though I only got a quick glance) were not mangy looking...kept up with a deer...and were seen on 3 other occasions that week. If they can do it on their own...I figure I'm doing just fine at the house.


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

everything's been said...except this.

amy, don't listen to anyone here, even though they are right on...

do your own research so you don't have to be scared or naive.

once you do your own thinking, then other people's thinking won't mean a thing...because then you will be a believer...

it won't hurt to see what raw does for dogs....how it changes them....and their health....


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## FL Cracker (May 4, 2011)

magicre said:


> everything's been said...except this.
> 
> amy, don't listen to anyone here, even though they are right on...
> 
> ...


The more I keep up on this forum...the more I like it....could not have said a wiser statement myself. Proof is in the puddin.... literally in a sort of twisted sense of humor.


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## whiteleo (Sep 7, 2008)

I do so wish I could get my brother and his fiance to visit this site, as of only yesterday at "Father's Day breakfast he told me that my dogs would be dead before they are 9, how cruel is that! He has frenchie's and one has had nothing but health problems from the day she was born.


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

whiteleo said:


> I do so wish I could get my brother and his fiance to visit this site, as of only yesterday at "Father's Day breakfast he told me that my dogs would be dead before they are 9, how cruel is that! He has frenchie's and one has had nothing but health problems from the day she was born.


if EVER a dog there was to be fed raw, frenchies are that dog.....along with every smush faced, every bully dog....wait. every dog...


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## Tobi (Mar 18, 2011)

whiteleo said:


> I do so wish I could get my brother and his fiance to visit this site, as of only yesterday at "Father's Day breakfast he told me that my dogs would be dead before they are 9, how cruel is that! He has frenchie's and one has had nothing but health problems from the day she was born.


That's not very nice... 

Frenchies are so prone to problems it's not even funny... maybe one day he will see the light when your dogs live to be 12-15


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## doggoblin (Jun 6, 2011)

Not an easy problem to convince others who are determined "raw" is bad. I know the list provided is one I have seen before frequently. I would ask this... how many people can you find on the internet who have switched away from raw because of problems suffered ? I found one case where a dog choked on a bone as a testimonial on an anti-raw website. On the other side look at the ingredients list of kibble and ask do you really want a carnivore to eat that? I sometimes wonder how many ingredients on those list may be carcinogenic. I've seen figures that 33% of dog deaths before age 10 are due to cancer. 50% after they are aged 10. Is this diet related or is it that dogs are living longer as has been given as a reason by certain vets. As previously mentioned why is it that 75% of dogs have tooth problems by the time they are 3 so you need dental cleaning, possibly by use of "sticks" made by the companies who sell you the main food to begin with.


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

doggoblin said:


> Not an easy problem to convince others who are determined "raw" is bad. I know the list provided is one I have seen before frequently. I would ask this... how many people can you find on the internet who have switched away from raw because of problems suffered ? I found one case where a dog choked on a bone as a testimonial on an anti-raw website. On the other side look at the ingredients list of kibble and ask do you really want a carnivore to eat that? I sometimes wonder how many ingredients on those list may be carcinogenic. I've seen figures that 33% of dog deaths before age 10 are due to cancer. 50% after they are aged 10. Is this diet related or is it that dogs are living longer as has been given as a reason by certain vets. As previously mentioned why is it that 75% of dogs have tooth problems by the time they are 3 so you need dental cleaning, possibly by use of "sticks" made by the companies who sell you the main food to begin with.


i think the question i have...the people who give up raw....what are the reasons you've heard?

for me, it's been...

1. financial crunch.....

2. user error (that's the one i hear most, except the person doesn't realise it's what they are doing that is screwing things up, not the method of feeding raw)

....it's never been because the dog looked too good and was too healthy and the teeth were too white...and the vet hadn't been seen other than blood work in forever....


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## SerenityFL (Sep 28, 2010)

magicre said:


> i think the question i have...the people who give up raw....what are the reasons you've heard?
> 
> for me, it's been...
> 
> ...


I will answer this question because even though we have been on raw for 9 months and counting, even though they are doing spectacularly on the diet, (no salmonella, no worms, no choking, no mouth breathing, no knuckle dragging and whatever else anyone wants to come up with that sounds as ridiculous as the last two in that list), there are times when I consider something else. There have been SEVERAL times I consider something else.

The reason? Financial. I do not care how many times people try to deny it here or anywhere else, for me, FOR ME, feeding 2 dogs and 7 cats on the raw diet is WAY. MORE. EXPENSIVE and I mean, way, way, way, way, way, way more expensive than feeding them kibble. Sometimes I don't think I'm going to be able to continue to afford it. And people can say, "think of all the money you save by not going to the vet"....listen, I've had my cat for 12 years now. She's gone to the vet twice. Vaccines and spaying. I don't and haven't taken her to the vet for years and years and years. There is no need. She's only been on raw for 9 months...she was fed kibble for 11 1/2 years...no vet visits. So what was I saving?

However, it has improved her quality of life and she turned around from being unable to do so much to being able to do more again. She's not as she was when younger, she's definitely feeling her age...but it did turn her around. Which is, in all honesty, what keeps me at it when I think I really cannot afford this diet anymore.

So I do continue. I do look for bargains. I do go without....a LOT. Nonetheless, it would answer the question, if I ever did stop the raw diet, as to why. That is the only reason why. Cutting up, measuring, doling it out...meh, I've got lots of time. Money...I don't.


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## nupe (Apr 26, 2011)

Some more proof!!


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## chowder (Sep 7, 2008)

Amy18 said:


> Prey model diets are balanced by owners or nutritionists without the credentials to decide what a balanced diet is. Veterinary nutritionists (veterinarians who are members of the ACVN) will usually help balance a prey model diet, but they generally do not support feeding this way. When trying to figure out if a pup's diet is balanced (prey model raw or homecooked), a veterinary nutritionist should be consulted. Unbalanced diets can lead to blood and bone problems (very quickly in puppies).


I'll just add one more thing. Do most people that you know of get nutrition degrees before they have children? Somehow I see lots and lots of people having kids and no one is yelling at them that they need special degrees in nutrition in order to feed their kids right. Yet in order to feed a puppy right you have to have a degree in veterinary nutrition!!

Gee....I had two kids and both grew up just fine and all I did was use common sense with what I put in front of them. A wide variety of appropriate foods and not too much junk. Then make them go outside and play (with the puppies!!) :becky:


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## doggoblin (Jun 6, 2011)

I think it's fair to say money comes into a lot of people's thinking. We all know pets such as dogs are expensive, even without taking food into consideration. Without good suppliers, the chance to buy in bulk etc the price of raw feeding will be more expensive. Vet bills do not really enter the calculation as we all hope our dogs will not have to see the vet no matter what the diet. I know we are currently starting raw with shop brought chicken which works out more expensive. We will shortly be ordering frozen meat in bulk and will be going to visit a local turkey farm tomorrow where we hope we will be able to get turkey cheaply. Some things will still work out more expensive such as fish but I think all in all it will work out about the same. In Germany there is a fairly large BARF movement which helps with the potential supply issues as well as cost. Our local butcher (excellent quality but normally very expensive) can supply tripe for less cost than we can buy in bulk which is a suprise and we will also be investigating what else they can supply. I can imagine anything people don't eat we can get at a reasonable price as I think they do their own slaughtering. When first hearing about raw feeding I did expect it to cost far more than it seems. So much depends on possible suppliers and location.

Being a daughter of a medical doctor I expected my wife to be far more concerned for hygiene but it seems I'm more paranoid about that than her which is the opposite of what normally happens in that regard. Her main fear is that she hates the sound of crunching bones.


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## SerenityFL (Sep 28, 2010)

doggoblin said:


> Her main fear is that she hates the sound of crunching bones.


This has become one of my favorite sounds. 

You are right about suppliers and such. Here in Maine it is cheaper for me at the store than it was in Miami...OMG in Miami it was so expensive...ridiculously expensive. I never found meat for under a dollar a pound like I see people talking about on here. Not even close. Here, I spoke to the butcher at the grocery store, the manager I believe, and I told him I feed the dogs the meat I get there. I asked him for organs and gizzards and hearts...they are now out, all the time. And he typically puts on, "manager's special" stickers.

Yesterday, I went to get food for myself since I always forget to do that part when shopping. (Spoiled pets.) I went to the meat aisle FOR ME and found chicken thighs and drumsticks, family packs, normally priced at $8-10 a package with a "manager's special" sticker on them bringing the price down to $3-4. In addition, some of them had another $2.00 or $2.75 off sticker on them. Hell yah I scooped up every last one of those! I spent $40 more on meat for the pets that I was not anticipating on spending but it would normally have cost me almost $100 for what I got. But those finds are rare...

I'm hoping that here in Maine, I will see more like this and maybe raw won't be so expensive for me. I'm going by experience from Miami where it was costing me almost $300 + a month to feed them. Yes, it IS that expensive there.


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## h&j (Nov 9, 2010)

SerenityFL said:


> This has become one of my favorite sounds.


Me too! I was surprised by how happy the crunch crunch of bones in the mouth of my dog makes me feel. But it signals all the excellent nutrition and dental benefits she's getting, and that makes me feel satisfied.


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

i think it takes a special kind of person to elevate dogs to a status they do not usually hold.

which is why serenity, you are willing to go without alot.....same with us...just to give your dogs what they need to eat to give them the best chance at life.

if you were any other way, you'd not be on this forum...

i remember on another forum, we were talking a person through transition. it lasted four days. because she was overfeeding, her dogs had cannon butt and were vomiting. she switched back to kibble and since she is very popular on this particular board, raw feeding is no longer discussed because she comes in with her 'story' and everyone believes her. it's a shame, but it is what it is....

i think, if we took a poll, we would find out that many here do without things just to feed their animals species specific...


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## trikerdon (May 14, 2011)

Now I find myself shopping for Sheba more than for myself. I keep getting good stuff for her and hardly anything for me. My freezer is full of her food with maybe a little space for a TV dinner or two. Sometimes I see stuff at the store that is a great deal and I have to stop and think, is there any room left in the freezer for that?


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

we have two and a half freezers for the dogs, a refrigerator where one whole shelf is theirs...

i think we do this because we love our dogs and this is, in our hearts, the right food to feed. no more reading labels....it just feels right....

granted, raw didn't help my pug with the two eye surgeries he needed, but he'll never need a dental....he's in great shape...and yeah, honey and i have given up a lot...but these are our kids....it is not that we don't eat nutritionally appropriate food...it's just that it's only fair that they also get a chance to eat nutritionally appropriate food...


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## Dude and Bucks Mamma (May 14, 2011)

We too, have started going without. Not that we didn't go without before. The military isn't paid much. We were pouring all of "extra cash" every paycheck into a savings for a nice coffee table for our nearly empty apartment and we should have had it by now... but we started on raw. We have both willingly given up both MY coffee table and our guns we were saving up for to buy meat for our boys instead. And guess what? We don't mind! Our freezer is so full that we can't fit any of OUR food into it and our dogs, too, have their own fridge shelf. The money that we had saved up so far for the coffee table? That will now be going towards a chest freezer for the dogs. We both love it and wouldn't want to feed our dogs any other way. Keep in mind that I am one of those who freaks out about germs from chicken. I have always had an issue with chicken. My chicken has to be cooked dry before I am comfortable eating it. I am getting to b less and less worried about that because there have been no ill effects from the raw meat when a kitchen is kept properly clean as every kitchen should, with or without raw fed dogs in the house.


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## nupe (Apr 26, 2011)

h&j said:


> Me too! I was surprised by how happy the crunch crunch of bones in the mouth of my dog makes me feel. But it signals all the excellent nutrition and dental benefits she's getting, and that makes me feel satisfied.



i USUALLY HAVE TO SMOKE A CIGARETTE AFTER WATCHING AND HEARING THE BONES BEING CRUNCHED!!!


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

it took about two weeks for me to get over the 'germs' and sanitising the kitchen every time they ate.....and about a month before that crunch sounded like heaven.

see, it's a much cooler sound than the sound of a pug horking up his meal over and over, because he hadn't figured out how to crunch and gnaw and hold with his feet.

there are things i want and places i want to go, but i took on dogs....our freezers, right now, are full, and we are just at the point where a moratorium is being called....after we get emu, of course....we won't buy anything for the dogs until the freezer empties out....so i guess we did a good thing filling them up with anything and everything over the past year...because i'm in forced retirement, so things are a widdle tightish.


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## Yorkie Paws (Jul 28, 2011)

Hello from the "clueless idiot" (post #11 seems to indicate that the person who gathered or wrote the information in the original post is one and that would be me). I do enjoy animal nutrition as I'm sure you all do, so sometimes I visit forums to read about different diets and such. 

I'm not upset in the least that the original poster posted this. What did catch my attention was the way people throw around terms like "idiot" here just because others don't agree with the way they feed their dogs. As for brash and close minded, you're the ones calling those who write things against the raw diet uninformed idiots. 

Nobody here except maybe the original poster knows what I feed, if I have ever fed raw, or how much I have or have not studied the subject. In fact, I have not always fed kibble and I have not always disagreed with the raw diet. 

What each person feeds their dog is a personal decision. Just because somebody disagrees with what you feed does not make them ignorant. After reading some of the posts on this forum, my feeling on this diet have only become stronger. I see loose stools (even long term) being talked about as normal, dogs throwing up (at least one excessively) and no veterinary care given - just a recommendation to switch this and that and wait it out by some. There are skinny dogs, borderline emaciated, and owners are told to try and stick it out. Instead, do what is best for the dog's health and see a veterinarian before letting the lay public manage a medical case. 

As for the cause, prevention, and treatment of bacterial and parasitic infections in my dogs and the topic of intestinal health in the canine, I seek the advice of a veterinarian. They are much more qualified in this area than most anyone on an online dog forum. 

Anyway, for the owner whose dog was diagnosed with probable bone shards in the colon the other day from eating a raw diet (on another forum) and others like her who are not aware of any risks, I will continue to voice my thoughts on the subject.


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## Caty M (Aug 13, 2010)

Most of us have fed kibble. 99.9% of people who bash raw have never fed raw. THAT'S what bugs me. And for those "skinny dogs" I bet they look just fine. Most dogs are fat nowadays.


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## SilverBeat (Jan 16, 2011)

Yorkie Paws said:


> What each person feeds their dog is a personal decision. Just because somebody disagrees with what you feed does not make them ignorant. After reading some of the posts on this forum, my feeling on this diet have only become stronger. *I see loose stools (even long term) being talked about as normal, dogs throwing up (at least one excessively) and no veterinary care given - just a recommendation to switch this and that and wait it out by some. There are skinny dogs, borderline emaciated, and owners are told to try and stick it out. Instead, do what is best for the dog's health and see a veterinarian before letting the lay public manage a medical case. *


Most members here do not post if all is going swimmingly. So you will see a lot of "problem" posts. That's just common sense. Also most of the people posting are new to raw and thus have a lot of questions/concerns early in the transition. It is, after all, a drastic change from artificial food, you can't expect everything to be perfect all the time.

Also, when I came here my dog was "borderline emaciated" [see this post:http://dogfoodchat.com/forum/pictures/8400-does-my-dog-look-emaciated-you.html ] I stuck it out and guess what? He looks like a normal, healthy dog, now. Turns out he needed a bit more dietary fat and a lot of beef heart. He has a high metabolism.

I would much rather keep my dog [and all my animals, for that matter] in the comfort of their own home when they are not feeling well, rather than rush them to the vet for every little thing. I do call them if it's a pressing matter, but am I going to take my dog to the vet for _loose stool_ or just because he's thin? No. IMO that's a waste of time and money. I'm going to do a little troubleshooting.

ETA this: ‪Raw Meat Diet for Dogs and Cats‬‏ - YouTube

And my vet was ecstatic when I told him I feed raw. He said he wished more people would "use their  heads when they feed their pets... and themselves."


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## BrownieM (Aug 30, 2010)

Yorkie Paws said:


> Hello from the "clueless idiot" (post #11 seems to indicate that the person who gathered or wrote the information in the original post is one and that would be me). I do enjoy animal nutrition as I'm sure you all do, so sometimes I visit forums to read about different diets and such.
> 
> I'm not upset in the least that the original poster posted this. What did catch my attention was the way people throw around terms like "idiot" here just because others don't agree with the way they feed their dogs. As for brash and close minded, you're the ones calling those who write things against the raw diet uninformed idiots.
> 
> ...


I don't think that raw feeders take offense to those who disagree with the diet, but instead take offense to those who disagree with the diet for invalid reasons, such as a pathological fear of bacteria, impaction, blockage, nutritional deficiencies, etc.

The greatest danger in a raw diet is owner error.


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## swolek (Mar 31, 2011)

SilverBeat said:


> Most members here do not post if all is going swimmingly. So you will see a lot of "problem" posts. That's just common sense.


Great point. My dogs didn't have any issues transitioning (all three of them) and so I didn't have much to post about, ha. It's the nature of a forum like this--more people are going to be posting with problems, not "everything is going great!".

In fact, I've switched foster dogs to raw (and am supplementing the current foster with RMBs twice a week) and they adapted quicker than my own dogs! Lily especially--it was like she was eating raw all her life.

EDIT: I do want to add that when I was still feeding pre-made raw and about to switch to PMR, Sophie had an episode of vomiting. I of course thought "oh no, is it the raw?". Nope! Turns out it was a new treat she's never had before (dried beef tendon). People who just switched their dogs to raw are very quick to blame the new diet for any issue (understandably so) when it might be something simple like over-feeding, the dog getting into something, or even a stomach bug.


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

Yorkie Paws said:


> Hello from the "clueless idiot" (post #11 seems to indicate that the person who gathered or wrote the information in the original post is one and that would be me). I do enjoy animal nutrition as I'm sure you all do, so sometimes I visit forums to read about different diets and such.
> 
> I'm not upset in the least that the original poster posted this. What did catch my attention was the way people throw around terms like "idiot" here just because others don't agree with the way they feed their dogs. As for brash and close minded, you're the ones calling those who write things against the raw diet uninformed idiots.
> 
> ...


i'm not going to address the 'clueless idiot' merely because name calling has no place on any forum...although i'm not sure where it was written.

but you're right. it is the dog's owner who is responsible for choosing what to feed.

what i resent is you calling raw fed dogs borderline emaciated....or when they vomit, they must be taken to the vet...

there are transitions that go smoothly and there are transitions that don't. mostly because of USER ERROR. what we do as a support team is to stabilise the dog and educate the owner to feed the proper amount so diarrhea is not an issue, vomiting is not an issue and transition moves right along.

i read plenty of kibble forums whose dogs have been switched to practically every dog food made and the stool is loose, the breath stinks, the dog has IBD, which raw fed dogs do not have. the allergies abound...yet, everyone thinks that is just a normal part of feeding...on these forums, at least.

i stand by feeding my dog raw because i have fed kibble. i don't know nor do i think i need to know what you feed, but please don't group us together as you stand on the outside and make comments about what you clearly know little about or you wouldn't be saying it.

if a dog got a shard stuck in its colon, let's also talk about socks that get stuck and kibble a dog choked on and died. there are risks to all kinds of feeding...

and whilst you have a G'd given right to feed what ever you want to feed....please do not presume you know what you're talking about until you've walked a mile in MY shoes. i feed raw. i will always feed raw. it took me a long time to get here and the research was intensive.

my dogs are healthy. they have been kibble fed. home fed. and now are prey model raw fed. protein. bone. organ. that's it.

and they are thriving. that they don't carry the kibble pot belly or wide hip is something you're just not used to seeing. these dogs, including my girly waisted, wide chested pug are pure muscle. there is not an ounce of fat on these dogs....because they are fed raw. 

their teeth are white, no cavities because they get no sugar. they don't get diabetes. and they rarely get any disease, unless they've lived long enough and then all bets are off when you're old. it'll happen to you, too.

i object to what you're saying. i really do. 

feed your dog raw for a few years and then let's talk. from what you're saying, i can tell you do not feed raw. it's not very difficult to suss that out.


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## CorgiPaws (Mar 31, 2009)

Yorkie Paws said:


> What did catch my attention was the way people throw around terms like "idiot" here just because others don't agree with the way they feed their dogs. As for brash and close minded, you're the ones calling those who write things against the raw diet uninformed idiots.


Lets take a look at close-mindedness for a moment. To me, that would indicate someone unwilling to consider another's OPINION on a topic. Someone unwilling to look beyond what is presented to them, and consider another logical way. 
Now let's look at what is happening here. We have an animal. A dog. A carnivore. There, there's a FACT. Now, knowing that simple FACT about dogs, tells you what diet they ought to be fed, what diet is optimal, natural, ideal. By claiming that a raw diet is NOT ideal, you are not just expressing an opinion, but going against the FACT. Because it defies all facts, I would in fact label it an misinformed opinion, one that to agree with, I would also have to ignore facts. This does not make me, or my fellow raw feeders "close minded" it makes us logical. I could tell you that grass is magenta, and if you did not believe it, or even accept it does it make you close-minded? No. It makes you informed. 



Yorkie Paws said:


> What each person feeds their dog is a personal decision. Just because somebody disagrees with what you feed does not make them ignorant.


No, it does not, but again, if they feed something that entirely goes against the nature of the animal, then I would in fact say they are misinformed. You can not apply logic to it. If you REFUSE to even look at logic and common sense... well.... then yeah, I call ignorance.
_ig·no·rant   
[ig-ner-uhnt] 
–adjective
lacking knowledge or information as to a particular subject [dogs.....] or fact [......are carnivores]_



Yorkie Paws said:


> After reading some of the posts on this forum, my feeling on this diet have only become stronger.


Well, most people don't post just to tell you how awesome raw is going... BUT some people do. 
http://dogfoodchat.com/forum/raw-feeding/2265-success-stories.html
http://dogfoodchat.com/forum/raw-feeding/9568-im-sooo-happy-say.html
http://dogfoodchat.com/forum/raw-feeding/9536-first-raw-meal-success.html
http://dogfoodchat.com/forum/raw-feeding/9487-if-you-fence-please-take-my-advice-go.html
http://dogfoodchat.com/forum/raw-feeding/9396-sheba-got-great-compliment-today.html
http://dogfoodchat.com/forum/raw-feeding/9335-lucky-doing-great-photos.html
http://dogfoodchat.com/forum/raw-feeding/9331-mumm3s-pictures.html



Yorkie Paws said:


> After reading some of the posts on this forum, my feeling on this diet have only become stronger. I see loose stools (even long term) being talked about as normal, dogs throwing up (at least one excessively) and no veterinary care given - just a recommendation to switch this and that and wait it out by some. There are skinny dogs, borderline emaciated, and owners are told to try and stick it out. Instead, do what is best for the dog's health and see a veterinarian before letting the lay public manage a medical case.


Most of the issues that we see are in fact user error, and not major health concerns. I've very rarely seen cases where struggles with being underweight being with raw. Generally dogs struggle PRIOR to the switch, drop a little more during transition (which is the cause of many frantic "OMG, MY DOG IS WASTING AWAY?! HALP!?" posts) and then even out beautifully, healthier than ever before. The transition CAN be hard on dogs, especially with user error. Much like some dogs have a tough time transitioning on kibbles, and too fast of a transition can cause digestive upset. Do you think these issues don't exist in kibble fed dogs?
http://dogfoodchat.com/forum/dry-canned-dog-food/9571-pancreatitis-jackson-got-diagnosed.html
http://dogfoodchat.com/forum/dry-canned-dog-food/9579-colorant-dyes-foods.html
http://dogfoodchat.com/forum/dry-ca...o-soft-stool-how-much-should-we-feed-him.html
http://dogfoodchat.com/forum/dry-canned-dog-food/9373-issues-pet-food.html
http://dogfoodchat.com/forum/dry-canned-dog-food/8859-trouble-switching-food.html
http://dogfoodchat.com/forum/dry-canned-dog-food/8558-veterinarians-report-mysterious-link.html
http://dogfoodchat.com/forum/dry-canned-dog-food/8429-warning-about-evangers-canned-foods.html



Yorkie Paws said:


> Instead, do what is best for the dog's health and see a veterinarian before letting the lay public manage a medical case.


That's because most of the time- it's simply NOT a medical case. Are your stools the EXACT same every single day? Is your meal the EXACT same every day? Is your weight the EXACT same every day? Have you ever been sick before? Have you ever eaten something that didn't quite sit well? 
Vets over-prescribe antibiotics, which that fact alone is enough to keep me from telling people to rush to the vet for every little thing. The lasting effects of that is detrimental to a dog's health.. a whole lot worse than some softer stools. I chicken back is a FAR superior solution to antibiotics and sawdust (science diet) or a chicken and rice diet. 



Yorkie Paws said:


> As for the cause, prevention, and treatment of bacterial and parasitic infections in my dogs and the topic of intestinal health in the canine, I seek the advice of a veterinarian. They are much more qualified in this area than most anyone on an online dog forum.


I have yet to meet a PMR fed dog with a parasitic infection, OR a food-related bacterial infection. 
And if you'd like to talk about those matters, I'd like to tell you about my Corgi I had, Grissom... who was dying slowly on kibble, miserable and emaciated from the carbohydrate overload tearing apart his system, and a bacteria overload so bad that antibiotics and 8 months of treatment failed to even slightly make better. I watched and tried and searched and prayed while he got worse, and worse, and worse. My vet scared me away from raw. As a last stitch effort, after 8 months of daily diarrhea and vomiting, and several months of constant dehydration and lethargy... I gave Grissom a chicken thigh. And then a drumstick. and then a thigh. and then a drumstick. He never had diarrhea again. 
BEFORE- Grissom on kibble








AFTER- Grissom on raw








http://dogfoodchat.com/forum/pictures/2741-grissom-before-after-raw.html



Yorkie Paws said:


> Anyway, for the owner whose dog was diagnosed with probable bone shards in the colon the other day from eating a raw diet (on another forum) and others like her who are not aware of any risks, I will continue to voice my thoughts on the subject.


There are risks with everything in life. You take risks by standing up, sitting down, breathing, walking, etc. 
Dogs choke on kibble. 
Dogs die from kibble. 
Dogs get very sick form kibble. 
Dogs are skinny on kibble. 
Dogs are fat on kibble. 
Dogs have allergies on kibble. 

Now, lets go to plain ol' logic and common sense here. You're sitting down to feed your kids. Or yourself. Whomever's health you care about most. With optimum health and nutrition in mind, which would you serve them?








OR









So, now with optimum nutrition in mind, which seems to make more sense, for our CARNIVORES?
kibble








OR
canned








OR
dehydrated








OR
PMR


















The answer is easy, just take a look at mother nature...










I could not even BEGIN to tell you the wonders that raw feeding has done for my pack of SEVEN, or the serious differences I see between my raw fed cat, and my EVO fed cat. I have many, MANY reasons for raw feeding. Health, coat condition, stools, dental benefits, mental stimulation, vet costs... *but I have seven VERY VERY convincing reasons, and perfect examples of why I believe in raw feeding SO much. I call them: Champ, Annie, Mousse, Zailey, Braxton, Timber, and Kola. *

OK! end rant!


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## lucky (Jan 8, 2011)

Excellent post PuppyPaws :thumb:


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## tansox (Jun 22, 2011)

Excellent reading - from start to end. And, if I might just add my two penneth, no-one says you MUST feed raw, feed what you're happy with, if that's dried kibble, tinned meat or what ever, that's your choice for your dog, but, I will never go back to a processed diet for my dogs, just meat, bones, fish and eggs, and we're ALL very happy with the results. Having black dogs, everyone from our vet, to people in the street comment on their shiney coats, they are like mirrors - they had shiney coats on kibble, but nothing to the shine they have now.


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## lily (May 16, 2011)

well each to their own.i can only speak from personal experience,my dog has allergies ,ive posted on here regarding them,shes been on raw 4 months now and her allergies are just as bad,and yes i weakened and listened to my breeder ,i gave my dog kibble for 2 feeds ,when i gave her the kibble i was hopeful that her allergies would go ,now aint that stupid!!!!lol,she pood for britain that day and went into hyperitch,when dishing out the kibble i felt bad as she is used to raw meat,yes there is time preparing it,yes there is a risk of infection,yes there is a risk of choking on bone but life is one big risk,dogs choke on kibble,dogs have contracted germs from kibble ,i honestly believe that a lot of dog owners are too lazy to buy and prepare raw food ,some honestly believe their vets when told dogs cant eat raw ,some like being led by the nose,luckily the 2 vets where i take my dog believe raw is the best diet so i feel lucky,my dog will probably spend the rest of her life in a tshirt,covered in cream,taking antihistamines,i will probably never find out why she scratches but i still believe raw is the best food for her ,karen


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## Yorkie Paws (Jul 28, 2011)

I'm not here to debate what diet is best. The only reason I posted is to inquire about the derogatory name calling here. I've seen it in another thread too. I guess anybody that holds strong opinions against raw is an idiot then.

I did not say your dogs looks emaciated, I said they are by all the threads about problems keeping weight on. And yes, there are many health issues going on here that do require a veterinarian. You all have the right to let your dogs vomit several times and have days and days of loos stool if that's what you want to do. I choose to spend the time and money to have a professional evaluate my dog's GI tract when something isn't right. 

Still a bit confused as to why some feel the need to resort to name calling. Actually, a good friend of mine feeds raw. She respects what I think and I respect what she thinks. We just don't agree. Never in the conversation does uninformed, close minded idiots come up.

As for how I feel about raw feeding, I do not agree with it. That does not mean that I don't love to see owners caring so much about what their dogs eat. That also doesn't mean that I'm going to spend too much time trying to convince an owner to feed something else if they believe their dog is doing well on this diet. That's just it...most of you are confident in what you feed. Some are not, they have no idea that there are any risks at all, and IMO they should be shown what the veterinary profession as a whole thinks about it. 

That's it from me. 

Have a good day all.


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

no one should be called an idiot. that's just rude and very poor debate skills.

i'm glad you have a vet that understands nutrition in dogs and the difference between feeding too much beef heart and a disease process.

many of us don't have that understanding with our vets....and many even before feeding raw, did not trust our vets to know anything substantive about nutrition, especially when science diet is being shoved down my throat...that and pepcid AC and whatever they give for overgrowth of bacteria, which should never be present in a dog.

dogs do very well, as puppy paws, linsey, pointed out and she gave you threads to read.

you're only interested in the someone who call you a clueless idiot? or that animals are dropping like flies around here? which they are not doing?

if not for this forum, so many new raw feeders would have nowhere to go. we are not doctors and we don't claim to be.

we tell posters when we think it's time to go to a doctor.

i'm glad you can sit on your lofty perch and tell raw feeders that you don't believe in the way we feed. good for you.

and not to be rude, but so what? whatever you believe is certainly not going to impact what i feed..

but a vet not versed in nutrition, certainly can hurt MY dog....not the other way around.


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## Caty M (Aug 13, 2010)

Well.. if I KNOW the cause of loose stools, vomiting etc.. like transitioning to raw I don't see a need to go to the vet. If it just happens for no reason for an extended period of time or is accompanied by other symptoms I'd bring him in. 

As Puppypaws said, there is risks to feeding kibble as well as raw. I know several diabetes and kidney dogs. I also know of a dog (shepherd mix) who died from inhaling kibble and choking. 

To me the biggest risk is feeding an inappropriate diet, one laden with carbohydrates dogs do not need or use. I am more worried about a dog getting a chronic illness with kibble like the aformentioned diabetes than an extremely rare case of a dog getting an impaction or choking. As for food borne illnesses, well, do you know how strong a dog's stomach acid is? The vast majority of bacteria cannot survive that strong of hydrochloric acid. 

Don't forget also that pet foods aren't sterile, they also are laden with bacteria.

To me the benefits of raw.. clean teeth, minimal vet bills, shiny coat, no hyperactivity yet still more energy (no spikes in blood sugar!) longer life.. are worth the 1 in 10,000 chance my dog could be one of those unlucky dogs that may very well choke on a bone. Ive never heard of it happening, though I'm sure its possible.

BUT.

You have to think.. how common are the diseases associated with kibble? Diabetes, obesity, periodontal disease (more than 80% of kibble dogs have that), kidney issues, cancers. 

A hell of a lot more common than 1 in 10,000.


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

caty...before my dogs transitioned the second time, they had the runs for weeks.....and it was user error...had i not asked for help from NOT A VET....i would be back on home cooked....

so if the poster who is worried about name calling sees weeks of diarrhea, suddenly it's an illness and not a problem with transition which can easily be fixed.

the assumption made here by the poster is astounding to me....simply because she doesn't know enough about raw feeding to make these kinds of comments.

she's more worried about being called a clueless idiot and denying our dogs the care of a doctor and she mistakenly believes a well muscled dog is emaciated....it's wrong thinking and should not be posted on a forum where lurkers can be reading this.

i just want her to think about what she's posting before she's posting because of the impact she might have on those who want to feed raw but may be put off by yet another misconception.


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## CorgiPaws (Mar 31, 2009)

I'm a bit unclear of the purpose of your post. You state your opinion, I state mine, which I also back up with common sense and logic, and then you don't want to talk about it? Hate to admit it... but that's pretty typical of someone whose opinion is trampled on by logic.

You may be comfortable feeding a totally processed food meal after meal, but I would really rather not deal with obesity, malnourishment, diabetes, tooth decay, seizures, lethargy, odor, yeast infections, skin irritation, dull coat, allergies, or any other harmful effect stemming from neglecting to feed a proper natural diet.

And no, vet care is not necessary for those things during transition. If you over eat and get an upset stomach do you run to the hospital? If you overdo spicy food and have digestive upset, is the ER necessary? 

No more than I would feed a cow boiled pork would I feed a dog anything but raw meat.

And your by must be God if he knows more about canine nutrition than mother nature.


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## BrownieM (Aug 30, 2010)

Yorkie Paws said:


> I'm not here to debate what diet is best. The only reason I posted is to inquire about the derogatory name calling here. I've seen it in another thread too. I guess anybody that holds strong opinions against raw is an idiot then.


Not necessarily. But, someone who holds strong opinions against raw based on fallacies is uninformed. Someone who refuses to accept factual information about a raw diet and stubbornly disagrees with raw feeding for invalid reasons, might be a bit ignorant. 

Choosing not to feed a raw diet is one thing. But to judge the diet when one is uneducated about the diet is an ignorant thing to do.

Also, when you refer to what the veterinary profession as a whole thinks about raw feeding, this is something that varies greatly among vets. The more progressive vets who have taken it upon themselves to do additional research on diet and nutrition outside of vet school tend to be accepting of and/or even promote a raw diet. My holistic vet - a DVM who has done additional nutrition research - FEEDS a raw diet.

I will not try and convince someone to feed a raw diet if they don't want to. I WILL try and try and try to help someone who is uneducated about a raw diet and lost in myths and fallacies to understand a raw diet. I am okay with someone knowing everything about a raw diet, the risks, benefits and facts, and deciding not to feed it. But that person must be making a fully informed decision. 

What bugs me above all else is when someone who is ignorant about the diet, stubborn in their opinion but refusing to accept factual information, repeatedly claims that they are "against the diet". To me that sounds a whole lot like a 15 year old who is for or against birth control, for or against gay marriage, for no reason other than that is what they have heard everyone around them say. They can't back up their own statement. In general, in life, you need to have ALL OF THE FACTS before you can have an educated opinion. When you can't back up your own statement with any facts, well, that shows that one is uneducated on the subject.


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## tem_sat (Jun 20, 2010)

Yorkie Paws said:


> ...they have no idea that there are any risks at all, and IMO they should be shown what the veterinary profession as a whole thinks about it.


I assume you have a Yorkie. Have you considered a few other questions in regard to what "the veterinary profession as a whole" considers is best for your dog:

1. Is it normal for a Yorkie to require a yearly dental?

2. Are carbs good for dogs?

3. Are fruits and vegetables good for dogs and do the natural sugar and carbs contribute to periodontal disease?

4. What is the difference between cooked fat and raw fat in relation to pancreatitis?

5. How much protein does my Yorkie need?

6. How much fat does my Yorkie need?

7. Is it ok if I feed my dog Greek yogurt?

8. My Yorkie was hospitalized and you fed him / her Hill's Prescription I/D. The ingredients are: Whole Grain Corn, Brewers Rice, Dried Egg Product, Chicken By-Product Meal, Corn Gluten Meal, Pork Fat (preserved with mixed tocopherols and citric acid), Powdered Cellulose. Is this food good for my dog?

If you think you will get an unbiased answer to the above questions, backed up by peer-reviewed double-blind testing, you are living on another planet. It is the same type of answer you are seeking in regard to what "the veterinary profession as a whole" thinks about "raw". (I have no idea what your definition of "raw" is and, therefore, I will assume a very wide range.)


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## RawFedDogs (Jun 16, 2008)

When I find a vet that knows more about the OPERATION of a dog's GI tract than I do, then I might listen to him. When I find a ver who feeds his own dogs raw so he is familiar with it and has for several years, then I might listen to him. I know that there are vets who feed raw but none in my area. If a vet hasn't delt with raw fed dogs extensively, he has no clue what is going on. Seeing one every few months isn't going to give him the knowledge he needs. The greatest knowledge most vets have of the GI tract is which Hill's garbage to prescribe for which symptoms. They have no clue as to what is actually going on or how the organs operate.


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## SerenityFL (Sep 28, 2010)

Yorkie Paws said:


> I'm not here to debate what diet is best. *The only reason I posted is to inquire about the derogatory name calling here. I've seen it in another thread too. I guess anybody that holds strong opinions against raw is an idiot then.*
> 
> I did not say your dogs looks emaciated, I said they are by all the threads about problems keeping weight on. And yes, there are many health issues going on here that do require a veterinarian. You all have the right to let your dogs vomit several times and have days and days of loos stool if that's what you want to do. I choose to spend the time and money to have a professional evaluate my dog's GI tract when something isn't right.
> 
> ...


Oh my God I cannot stand it anymore. Since you keep bringing it up, let me address this whole "clueless idiot" business you keep harping on. 

YES, those words were used. But you took them completely out of context so that you could post from a pedestal and get butt hurt about something that wasn't even directed at you NOR anyone else on this forum.

The poster said that he believed that what was told to the OP was nothing more than a copy/paste from some other clueless idiot....WHAT he meant by that, (let's put this in to context....God you sound just like a reporter), and what ANYone means by that is this:

Disagreeing with someone does not make that person a clueless idiot.

What makes that person a clueless idiot is when they adopt a belief as their own without ever researching a thing, without ever studying what the hell they so call believe, they merely make their opinions based on the opinion of someone else. THAT IS a clueless idiot. I don't care who you are, I don't care what the subject matter is, if you (general you, NOT you personally), belch out the same old tired talking points that you have heard over and over but you have NEVER taken a single second to even look in to ANY of those statements, you are most definitely indeed a clueless idiot.

THAT is what that poster meant. 

Either you did not comprehend what you read or you were purposefully dishonest. The tone of your posts, the accusations and the sudden dismissal when someone gave you facts to work with makes me believe you have not done the research on raw but you want to come here, accuse all of us of having emaciated dogs, ("all the posts" show me "all" the posts. I have seen two. Out of how many posts on this forum? Seriously, AGAIN, put things in to context and use facts), accuse people of calling anyone who disagrees with them insulting names, that all these health issues are raw related, according to you, and imply that a vet should be consulted for every last thing regarding the animal. No. Sorry, not going to sit here and take that. 

These are nice people, these are giving people, these people share and help and do what they can. People spend HOURS helping other people, people that they don't know, so that their dogs can have a healthy diet. These people form bonds. These people who were once strangers become friends. These people feel safe enough with each other to be able to talk about other things not dog related. 

I don't care if I get an infraction for this or banned or whatever, but don't you DARE come in here and insult these people that you don't even know because you don't have any reading comprehension skills. You are out of line.


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## lily (May 16, 2011)

what an interesting thread have enjoyed reading all your comments,karen


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## CorgiPaws (Mar 31, 2009)

Serenity.... have I told you lately that I love you? LOL


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

PuppyPaws said:


> Serenity.... have I told you lately that I love you? LOL


me too.....


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## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

Nice post Serenity - the original poster sounds like she felt attacked in some way. I didn't see the thread. I do know know people who feed raw can be a little, er, enthusiastic  Just like with other things.

By the way, I do take my dogs in for every digestive upset. I don't take myself, but I don't really take chances with a 13 year old dog that can go downhill really fast. Luckily, the raw food has been such a miracle we haven't been to the ER one time since before we started it, and pre-raw she was there at least twice a month for stomach issues.


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

xellil said:


> Nice post Serenity - the original poster sounds like she felt attacked in some way. I didn't see the thread. I do know know people who feed raw can be a little, er, enthusiastic  Just like with other things.
> 
> By the way, I do take my dogs in for every digestive upset. I don't take myself, but I don't really take chances with a 13 year old dog that can go downhill really fast. Luckily, the raw food has been such a miracle we haven't been to the ER one time since before we started it, and pre-raw she was there at least twice a month for stomach issues.


sometimes, what seems to be enthusiasm occurs because of threads like this. unfounded statements by people who do not have experience with raw, believe every old wive's tale...

no one has to believe in raw....but i've never gone onto a kibble forum and said...don't feed kibble. i will give my opinion, because it took a long time to get to this belief system...and it is comfortable.

my vets look at me as if i have three heads, posters on boards accuse me of killing my dogs...if i get a little defensive or passionate....or even have a knee jerk reaction, especially to unwarranted threads such as this one...i'd say i've earned it.

and sometimes, if the shoe fits....etc..etc..etc...


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## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

I wasn't criticizing, by the way. People can be ignorant in alot of different areas, not just raw feeding. I admire folks who continue to combat the ignorance. I think I have come to the point where i don't defend anything i do to anyone any more.

Realistically, when someone just goes out and googles there is so much bad stuff out there. We are so brainwashed by the pet industry, and the vets, it's just sad.


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## Liz (Sep 27, 2010)

I just spent a whole lot of time going through this whole thread and read and re-read post 11 and didn't see anyone called an idiot. I did see reference to uniformed. I feed 6 - 10 dogs raw on a regular basis. New weaned pup up to an 11 year old. They are in excellent health. Almost everythign listed in that questionable post as far as bacteria is also found in kibble. If we shouldn't feed kibble, canned or raw because of the risk, what do we feed. Home cooking requires a balancing act I can't even begin to fathom. It is funny to come onto a forum, have a bit of a tizzy and leave. I don't want to sound mean but I could care less what you feed your dog. Mine all get the BEST - RAW. Mine are carnivores and that is what they should eat. I won't argue but I will inform when asked. If someone wants to feed cereal or vegetarian then by all means go for it. But, don't complain about IBD< allergies, overweight, underweight, bad teeth, bad breath, stinky, greasy coat and enormous poops. GIGO!


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

Liz said:


> I just spent a whole lot of time going through this whole thread and read and re-read post 11 and didn't see anyone called an idiot. I did see reference to uniformed. I feed 6 - 10 dogs raw on a regular basis. New weaned pup up to an 11 year old. They are in excellent health. Almost everythign listed in that questionable post as far as bacteria is also found in kibble. If we shouldn't feed kibble, canned or raw because of the risk, what do we feed. Home cooking requires a balancing act I can't even begin to fathom. It is funny to come onto a forum, have a bit of a tizzy and leave. I don't want to sound mean but I could care less what you feed your dog. Mine all get the BEST - RAW. Mine are carnivores and that is what they should eat. I won't argue but I will inform when asked. If someone wants to feed cereal or vegetarian then by all means go for it. But, don't complain about IBD< allergies, overweight, underweight, bad teeth, bad breath, stinky, greasy coat and enormous poops. GIGO!


i couldn't find the reference either. i thought it was me LOL


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## SerenityFL (Sep 28, 2010)

FL Cracker said:


> I would put money on 99.9% of the people here have never had any of these problems with raw feeding their dogs. *I'm pretty sure the person on that other forum could not give 5 symptoms of any one of the above issues...you pick one. They most likely copied and pasted this off of yet another clueless idiot that formed their own close minded opinion regarding a raw diet.*
> Dog's get into everything...I live in the city...yet Racoons, Opossum, Rat's, Rabbit, Squirrel, Frog's, Birds, Lizzards, and so on and so on....defecate in our yard nightly....now I don't smell it...but you can bank that my dog's do...they eat it...dirt....sticks...lick everything...roll in it...and so on.
> I feel rather comfortable feeding fresh whole chicken...liver....beef...venison...lamb....ect.
> 
> ...


This is what she was referring to and this is what was taken totally out of context.


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## Liz (Sep 27, 2010)

Thanks for that reference. I was beginning to feel like an "idiot" This is the nicest forum. I belong to other forums (sorry) and they will rip you apart without hesitation in a heartbeat. I can honestly say I have never been worried about making a comment or asking a question here. Thank you! ::happy:


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## tem_sat (Jun 20, 2010)

<---Raises her hand with a question! 

Is this an accurate statement (taken from the original copy/paste post)?



> Veterinary nutritionists (veterinarians who are members of the ACVN) will usually help balance a prey model diet...


Again, I would be fascinated to see an example of a "balanced" "prey model diet" which was devised by a boarded veterinary nutritionist. Has anyone ever had that done? What exactly does a boarded veterinary nutritionist think a "prey model diet" is anyway? For those whose vets feed raw, what do they feed? Just curious...


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## RawFedDogs (Jun 16, 2008)

tem_sat said:


> Again, I would be fascinated to see an example of a "balanced" "prey model diet" which was devised by a boarded veterinary nutritionist. Has anyone ever had that done? What exactly does a boarded veterinary nutritionist think a "prey model diet" is anyway? For those whose vets feed raw, what do they feed? Just curious...


That is a VERY good point. I'd like to see that too. :biggrin:


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## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

Both of my dogs vets support my raw diet - but neither of them feed it to their own dogs. I guess they REALLY don't believe in it, or they would do it.


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## BrownieM (Aug 30, 2010)

The holistic vet that my dogs see for vaccinations feeds her dogs raw. I have not asked what diet she follows, but I would venture to guess it likely includes meat, bone, organ and veggies, based on the literature she recommended to me. However, I really don't care if she feeds BARF or whatever, she feeds raw and she is that much closer to being on the same page as me.


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## CorgiPaws (Mar 31, 2009)

BrownieM said:


> The holistic vet that my dogs see for vaccinations feeds her dogs raw. I have not asked what diet she follows, but I would venture to guess it likely includes meat, bone, organ and veggies, based on the literature she recommended to me. However, I really don't care if she feeds BARF or whatever, she feeds raw and she is that much closer to being on the same page as me.


At least it's a vet that understands the very VERY basic concept that processed foods are bad for pets (and people!) and whole foods are obviously better. That says a whole lot more than I can say about most vets!


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## Caty M (Aug 13, 2010)

Ohh yeah Liz, I agree. This is the only forum where I can say what I think and don't have people jumping over every little thing I say. I joined Prodog a month ago and have basically had every little thing I've said ripped apart, from the fact that I don't vaccinate, to that I feed raw to puppies, to that I take my Italian greyhound to a (fenced) dog park. I even had someone say if they were a breeder they wouldn't sell a puppy to me, because of my view on vaccination and raw feeding, LOL. Same on Iggyplanet. I'd love to find a higher traffic forum that I like as much as this one.


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## Scarlett_O' (May 19, 2011)

Caty M said:


> Ohh yeah Liz, I agree. This is the only forum where I can say what I think and don't have people jumping over every little thing I say. I joined Prodog a month ago and have basically had every little thing I've said ripped apart, from the fact that I don't vaccinate, to that I feed raw to puppies, to that I take my Italian greyhound to a (fenced) dog park. I even had someone say if they were a breeder they wouldn't sell a puppy to me, because of my view on vaccination and raw feeding, LOL. Same on Iggyplanet. I'd love to find a higher traffic forum that I like as much as this one.


sooo true!!!
but those have made sure interesting reads!!!:tongue1:


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## Caty M (Aug 13, 2010)

Scarlett, do they do that to everyone, or just me I feel like a lot of their arguments esp the recent one about feeding raw to puppies. Saying pups can't chew bones.. LOL pretty sure they can since mine devours elk antlers and turkey drums and beef ribs in a very short time. You give them a reason why you do what you do and they ignore it and keep on ripping on you! :smile: it can be fun, though!


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## sadysaneto (Jun 28, 2011)

Amy18 said:


> Before straying from an AAFCO approved kibble or canned food, remember that just because there aren't a ton of reports of alternative diets negatively affecting pets, that doesn't mean they don't exist. They just aren't always talked about online.


same can be said bout kibble...

anyway, for me, its just a matter of common sense.

if raw was bad, we wouldnt have dogs in present days.

or they would only exist since the 70s...

but, then again, a lot of people "live" on cheese puffs and burguers, so I guess it´s expected they think dogs can live on the smae diet...


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## RaisingWolves (Mar 19, 2011)

If raw was so bad....wouldn't someone who has been feeding it for nine years (me) have problems? Wouldn't I know it was bad by now? 
How can my dogs have soft, thick, shiney coats? 
Last vet visit my vet was so excited to see the condition of my 16 month old mastiff. She's lean, muscular, and her coat is gorgeous!


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

RaisingWolves said:


> If raw was so bad....wouldn't someone who has been feeding it for nine years (me) have problems? Wouldn't I know it was bad by now?
> How can my dogs have soft, thick, shiney coats?
> Last vet visit my vet was so excited to see the condition of my 16 month old mastiff. She's lean, muscular, and her coat is gorgeous!


one would think you'd know by now. 

i understand the non raw people. had i not seen this with my very two eyes, the transformation...i would have had a hard time conceptualising it.

course, the over and over again statements are what grabbed me....why it would drive people away is beyond me.....constantly reading about the transformation....and what it does for dogs....

but.

we all sound like madison avenue ad campaigns....

course, there are thousands and thousands of us now sounding like the same campaign....too bad others only see the problems arise...and they aren't really problems....overfeeding is user error. that's usually the problem.


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