# Is there any reason besides "too rich" not to feed organs early?



## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

I have to admit, I have been going against advice the past two days and giving my constipated dog a small amount of liver. 

In addition, I've reduced the ground-up chicken w/bones to almost zero. Maybe 1/4 teaspoon morning and night.

I've also tried to give her as much chicken fat as I can cut off the meat.

Two days ago, I gave her about 1/2 teaspoon of liver (sorry I don't have a scale) and yesterday she got about a teaspoon. 

Other than the fact it is supposed to cause the runs, is there any other reason not to give it? I can't really find anything else.

If not, I'm going to increase it some more. She still not doing very well in the poop department. Either that, or go back to the stool softener/oil/pumpkin combo and see what happens.


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## MissusMac (Jan 6, 2011)

I'm not sure, but I am against waiting weeks and weeks to feed organ since we followed that and Miko got anemic. As soon as I gave him a tiny bit of organ (like the size of a thumbnail) with his meals every day he perked up and was back to his old happy, energetic self.

So, what I'm saying is I give Miko a tiny bit of organ with every meal and he's been doing great with no adverse effects.


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## Sapphire-Light (Aug 8, 2010)

I give my dog some beef or chicken liver at 6 am, and he is fine. 

Maybe it depends on the individual dog.


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## eternalstudent (Jul 22, 2010)

I think it is simply the safest way to feed raw. If you take them majority of dogs then they will end up with cannon-but if you feed to much rich meat to early on in the transition. I can't think of a more off-putting scenario then a crate full of poo before breakfast :-(. 

If you are careful and patient and observant there would be nothing wrong with feeding the organs at any time. I know I was feeding small amounts of organs from an early age with no adverse reactions.


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

xellil said:


> I have to admit, I have been going against advice the past two days and giving my constipated dog a small amount of liver.
> 
> In addition, I've reduced the ground-up chicken w/bones to almost zero. Maybe 1/4 teaspoon morning and night.
> 
> ...


i don't remember if you answered this, but does she have a diagnosed poop problem? or are you experimenting a little too much....

many dogs, in the beginning, don't poop for two or more days, because everything in the protein is utilised.....

please don't take offense, but i think you're causing some of your own problems, because you're moving too quickly....

if you think she is constipated, then okay, give her a thumb sized piece of liver, but liver is very rich and there's a reason not to give it so soon....your dog isn't acclimated to raw yet....and i'm sorry to say this, but i think you're in too much of a hurry.....

please slow down...give her a chance...she might take a little longer because she's had so many problems...

the one thing about feeding is you can't think about the problems caused by kibble or pumpkin or whatever else you've been feeding.

certainly you can add some chicken fat to her diet....and since you ground a whole chicken....there's plenty of fat in there...

if you'd just please....try to stay on track.....you might just get some success out of this..


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## Northwoods10 (Nov 22, 2010)

Completely agree with Magicre.....

Take your time, let her body adjust to raw before jumping the gun and adding liver. Like suggested above, often times dogs starting out on this new diet will not poop for a day or two..and its completely normal. This was the case for all 3 of my dogs. They went the entire day with out pooping, and when they did go....I was amazed and the difference between a raw poop & kibble poop. 

Has she been pooping? What is the consistency of it? I believe there is a thread somewhere here about the way poop looks. I encourage you to take a look! Yes it does have actual pictures of poop! 

I would highly recommend adjusting what you are feeding now, instead of adding new things too soon and risking an even bigger problem.


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

remember, she did swallow a whole neck.....give her time to digest that....

she should be eating approximately 1.5 - 2 oz per meal...you're giving her a teaspoon per meal? if you want her to poop, she has to have food to digest down the intestinal tract and out.....and now you've added teaspoons of liver?

you're back to overfeeding and feeding inappropriate food....liver is very very rich....

it's not just the poop we care about. we care about the change in pH, we care about the enzymatic changes in her gut, so she can be a normal dog and eat natural food. from a lifetime of meds and kibble, she needs time to adapt.

please let her.


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## SilverBeat (Jan 16, 2011)

I agree with the others, you need to slow down and take it one step at a time. One of the reasons that you *only* feed bone-in chicken for the first two weeks is so that if a problem occurs, you know it's the fault of the chicken. This is the same reason that you introduce new proteins SLOWLY and ONE at a time. You need to let your dogs' bodies adjust to raw, it is a huge transition for them and speeding up the process will only harm your chances of success.


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## Tobi (Mar 18, 2011)

I agree too much too soon, we just started our weekly (5weeks in) organ meals which i break down daily about 2 oz per day for 6 days.

There is no reason to throw something else into the mix, stool softener/pumpkin/oil those are all going to throw things off.


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## Sapphire-Light (Aug 8, 2010)

Opss I didn't notice before you meant early in the diet and not early in the morning :tape:

Anyways the first time I gave a bone to my dog he took a day to make a poop and the first time he ate chicken liver his stool was more soft and a bit darker.


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## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

Thanks - the constipation issue has been severe since I got her. It's not because I started this diet - it's something wrong with her digestive system, she has always had trouble pooping.

She's been on raw meat since last Friday - the liver hasn't make any noticeable difference in her constipation - we are not talking about just straining a little bit, it's straining for five minutes. She IS pooping, but it's so difficult for her.

That is not because of the new diet - it's the way she is.

I can take the liver away, but I need some way to make it more comfortable for her to poop. The constipation is the reason I started looking for alternatives, the reason I found this site, and the reason we started feeding raw. 

Maybe I'm not guessing right. She normallly got 1/8 - 1/4 cup of food before we started this. I have been trying to give her the same amount in raw to see if she loses weight or not. So I get together about 1/8 cup of chicken, and then put a little tiny bit of liver in it. Yesterday I put a little more - say three small slices off a chicken liver. I wish I could be more accurate.

I don't mind stopping the liver, but I don't know what else to do. I would think after a week she would be accustomed to the chicken, and would be pooping by now. Before we started the diet, she had started being really constipated again even WITH all the stool softeners, etc. So now it's been about three weeks since she pooped without working so hard to get anything out. 

If there is something about the liver in addition to causing diarrhea, I will definitely quit doing it.

Should I remove ALL the bones for awhile? I'm not sure I can reduce her food volume - I think she's already going hungry, hubby is taking her to the vet today to see if she's losing weight. So I'll know for sure if the amount is correct.

She is pooping and the poop looks okay, I have checked out the thread, but it isn't turning white because she's getting almost no bone now. (she can't eat bone-in, she has four teeth - I am giving her a little bit of ground with bone and then plain chicken). 

I am taking no offense at anything, believe me - I appreciate every single post here and that you take the time to reply. And I really, really am trying to give it some time - but it's so hard to watch her struggle and struggle. We have fought this and fought this, and so far it's not any better with raw, in fact it's worse. I don't plan on going back to the way we were - that wasn't working either. 

I know she CAN go easily - when we first start some new laxative or something it always works for awhile - pooping right away with no problem. But it always fails within a few days, or weeks, also, and we end up back where we started.


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

the vets haven't been able to diagnose this problem with pooping? this constipation?

because it seems to me, this is either a bowel disease that needs to be diagnosed...tests and all....

or it's a time thing....

she should be getting approximately 4 oz of food per day. please get a scale....it really will help....actually...for accuracy, at ten pounds, she should eat 3.52 oz per day LOL

even still....if this is a physiologically undiagnosed problem, then perhaps a specialist is in order.

otherwise, it is a time thing. it's not even a week yet. and it takes about a year for full transition....


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## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

Well, i haven't looked for a specialist (are there doggy gastroenterologists? Maybe I could find one) but she's had all kinds of tests run, ultrasounds, xray etc. and everything looks ok. Maybe she needs a colonoscopy. I would be more concerned about irritable bowel etc. if she had constant diarrhea. 

But I do know that when we first put her on stool softener she had very easy poops - that lasted about 6 weeks and then we had to up the amount, up the amount, then add in olive oil, then mineral oil, etc etc etc. 

I will get a scale, today. I thought I could eyeball it based on her previous food, but maybe not. I do know I can't watch her struggle for a whole year!! The vet told me one reason we need to try to keep her from being constipated is because if she has to struggle and struggle to poop, she might start trying to NOT poop so she doesn't have to be uncomfortable.


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## Northwoods10 (Nov 22, 2010)

Yes, please get a scale! You don't measure raw food the same way you would with kibble. You measure by weight, not by cups. This will also help you determine percentages easier by looking at what you're feeding her and deciding if she could handle a boneless meal. 

For now, I'd give her a boneless meal and just wait it out. If she's having that much trouble...a boneless meal isn't going to cause a huge issue. 

I understand your worry about her, but has she been to a vet for the trouble pooping?

ETA: we both posted at the same time, I see you have taken her for tests


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## DaneMama (Jun 27, 2008)

I think you should follow the advice I already gave you.

Feed boneless days alternating with bone inclusive days. The boneless days, give a little bit more than the bone inclusive days days. If she's still having a hard time going after a full week of this add in small amount of liver on the bone inclusive days.

Take away all other additives and supplements.


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## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

Ok, hubby just called - she has lost two pounds since Friday, down to 8.2 pounds from 10.3 last week. He also says she is feeling puny this morning, lethargic.

So I don't think it's an overfeeding issue. I'm giving her way too little food.

DaneMama, I don't remember seeing that, or I forgot it. I should write this stuff down. I'm obviously doing horribly at this. I'll get a scale today, for sure. 

I have already taken her off everything else - she is getting only chicken in one form or another.


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## MissusMac (Jan 6, 2011)

Don't be too hard on yourself! This is a learning process, but you'll figure it out


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## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

I just hope I don't kill my dog before I figure it out - she didn't have two pounds to lose, I carefully watched her weight loss to less than 1 pound per month, and here I've let her lose 2 pounds in 6 days. That's 20% of her body weight in less than a week.


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## DaneMama (Jun 27, 2008)

A lot of the weight loss is probably just water weight. Has she vomited at all?


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## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

No vomiting, no diarrhea (obviously). She seemed to be feeling perfectly fine except for the constipation.

I am getting a scale, if she feels like eating I am giving her double the recommended, if she doesn't feel like eating we will go to the emergency vet this afternoon.


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## DaneMama (Jun 27, 2008)

Don't give her double portions, I HIGHLY recommend against it. It'll most likely only cause her more issues. And don't go to the emergency vet because right now I see no reason to go (I'm a vet tech). You're more than welcome but all they're most likely going to tell you is that you're going to kill your dog with raw foods because they don't understand raw feeding. I don't want you to get scared off of this, because it's absolutely the best thing she can have right now and honestly her problems thus far aren't bad at all. 

Let's regroup, take a deep breath and take a look at her condition:

Problem: She's lost weight

Solution: Feed her more, but dont overdo it. Increasing rations gradually is best.

Problem: She's having difficulty passing stool.

Solution: See and follow above advice.

She's otherwise eating fine and drinking fine? 

Acting normal? 

Urinating fine?

Painful at all?


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## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

Except for the lethargy and no poop today.

I will get the scale and see if I've been feeding her too little but I know it's more than two ounces she's getting 1.5 chicken thighs plus the small amount of ground


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## DaneMama (Jun 27, 2008)

Feed her only boneless chicken today. Tomorrow give her a thigh in the morning and boneless chicken at night. If she doesn't have a BM by tomorrow then I'd take her in.


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## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

Normally I take her to the vet at the First sign of lethargy


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## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

Could I give her 2 oz tonight in two meals?


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## Northwoods10 (Nov 22, 2010)

How much were you feeding her to start with? 

I'd feed her tonight what you normally feed her with a smidge more. I say a smidge because she's a small dog eating small portions. 

When was the last time she pooped? I really don't think you have a reason to jump to the vet right now either. Just take it slow, let her body adjust and go from there. It does take time for them to adjust to this new way of eating & Digesting. Not to worry. And we're here if you need help!


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## DaneMama (Jun 27, 2008)

xellil said:


> Normally I take her to the vet at the First sign of lethargy


Do you take yourself to the doctor at the very first sign of lethargy? Or sore throat? Most people don't go to the doctor nearly as frequently as they take their dogs. I know it's because animal health is different than human health. BUT some of the same principles apply. When are symptoms bad enough to go see the doctor, in general? Same goes for dogs. Vomiting, diarrhea AND lethargy all in one case at the same time is enough to bring a dog in. 

Vomiting alone depends on WHY or what caused it. How often and what it looks like.

Diarrhea alone really isn't enough to ever take a dog in unless its been watery/bloody for more than two days and WHY (if you know your dog got into a loaf of bread, they just need time to get better).

Lethargy alone depends on why the dog is lethargic, sick or just plain tired or painful. It's also a really, really good idea to take your dog's temp at home. Doing this will tell you that they're lethargic due to infection or not based on what you see. Normal ranges 101.5-102.5 degrees F. A fever of 103.5 is enough to take a dog in.


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## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

I wasn't weighing, overall 1/4 - 1/3 cup of regular chicken and up until day before yesterday two big teaspoons of the ground-up with bones, then yesterday I reduced the ground up to about a teaspoonful a day. It ended up being close to two chicken thighs per day. We feed her four times a day so each meal is smallish.

obviously, not weighing was a mistake - although I don't think i was giving her so little that she should ahve lost 2 pounds. Quantity-wise, it was the same volume as the dry dog food I was feeding her last week, and it should have weighed more.

She pooped yesterday afternoon- my husband said he hasn't seen her poop today, and he can't find anything fresh in the yard that he missed seeing.

No, I don't want to go to the vet because now it has to be the ER vet - probably the same one who told me two weeks ago when I took her in that she should eat the Science Diet w/d and the same vet who has had this conversation with me at least four times - I keep refusing to do it and yet I keep bringing her back to the vet with digestive issues, and he seems to always be the one on duty.


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## DaneMama (Jun 27, 2008)

Well, it hasn't even been 24 hours since her last BM, right? If so I wouldn't be too concerned just yet....


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## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

DaneMama said:


> Do you take yourself to the doctor at the very first sign of lethargy?


I will wait this time, at least until tomorrow. She is just so small and seems to go downhill so fast when it starts - we just went through this 10 days ago, and she laid in bed for two days after we went to the ER and they couldn't find anything wrong. They did give her a shot for dehydration, and they gave me antibiotics I didn't give to her, but they do that every time and I never give them to her. 

The time before last when I was at the emergency vet, there was a woman who had a dachshund also and she waited several days after the lethargy started - they had two IVs going into her dog because of the severe dehydration and had covered him in heating blankets - they didn't know if he was even going to live. I don't want Snorkels to end up like that.

So, it probably doesn't do much good to take her at the first sign of lethargy but I'm afraid not to.
That's when I started looking for a better diet and found this site.


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## DaneMama (Jun 27, 2008)

Thats why you keep an eye on all of her body conditions. If she's just plain lethargic thats one thing but if she's lethargic and not drinking much or at all that's another huge problem. Dogs can't get dehydrated just from lethargy. They have to slow or stop their drinking habits and/or have diarrhea.


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## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

Well, when i got home she seems to be back to normal. My husband had given her all the meat off of a thigh, and she's standing here begging for food.

Still no poops, but she's not trying to poop either - it's not the lack of poop I worry about so much but the trying and failing. Obviously, she's not going to be pooping like she used to, which was every time she walked out the back door.

I looked at the amount of food I have been giving her - I haven't gone down to get the scale, but it can't be a starvation diet for a dog her size. 

Honestly, if I had an alternative i would do something else, because I don't like her losing weight this fast. I just don't know what else to do.


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## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

DaneMama said:


> Thats why you keep an eye on all of her body conditions. If she's just plain lethargic thats one thing but if she's lethargic and not drinking much or at all that's another huge problem. Dogs can't get dehydrated just from lethargy. They have to slow or stop their drinking habits and/or have diarrhea.


She just drank a bunch of water and we went zooming (for her) around the yard - my husband said she wouldn't even get out of bed this morning and he had to carry her outside to pee - I don't know why she bounced back so fast, I wish I did.

She does NOT look like she lost two pounds. I can feel that she doesn't have as much substance when I pick her up, but she's not looking like a starvation vicitm.


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## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

Sapphire-Light said:


> I give my dog some beef or chicken liver at 6 am, and he is fine.
> 
> Maybe it depends on the individual dog.


HAHAHA! I was so freaked out I didn't even notice this - just goes to show you how we THINK we are saying one thing, and we are really saying something totally different, on the internet.


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## Nani (Apr 14, 2010)

If you're worried about dehydration you could add a little water into her ground up meat, not a lot but a little. Dehydration definitely cause constipation.


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## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

It looks like she has had about 3 oz of water today - I pinched her skin and it popped up. But I will add a little water just in case, thanks. 

And she seems perfectly fine right now. I know I will have to revisit the constipation thing, but if she's not straining right now I'm not going to worry about it today.

I wish I could take everyone here out to dinner to say thanks, if anyone is in Indiana let me know and I will!


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## DaneMama (Jun 27, 2008)

Glad to hear she is doing better! Keep us posted :thumb:


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## BrownieM (Aug 30, 2010)

I think it is important to know your dog. I don't think everyone needs to wait so long to introduce organs. I started feeding organs after maybe 6 weeks. If someone has been feeding raw for a few weeks and their dog is doing very well, I don't see any issue with introducing very, very, very small amounts of organ.

Also, 24 hours without pooping really is no big deal. I mean, I know you were concerned because of constipation, but my dogs have gone up to 3 days without pooping when we were adjusting to raw.


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## CavePaws (Jan 25, 2011)

I agree it depends on the dog when it comes to organs. Just proceed with caution! I lucked out and was able to introduce organs fairly quickly, within the first few weeks. I did it slow, little amounts every day, and now they have organs with at least one meal each day. My dogs used to poop twice a day when I was doing kibble + raw, now they pretty much only poop once a day for the two meals they get. And it's tiny little itty bitty poops. Just make sure she isn't acting strange/in pain, you'll know if somethings wrong. Sounds like she's feeling fine at the moment anyway. :]


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## monkeys23 (Dec 8, 2010)

I agree with BrownieM & CavePaws that every dog is different.

My girls also only poop once a day even with two raw meals.

I went way faster than is remotely recommended with organs. But I knew their systems would be okay because they'd had liver randomly when on kibble (I know, I know, that probably wasn't good). We had no problems with it, but like I said I knew how their tummies would handle it and I was careful to bracket with bony meals. I would not have done that if I had a dog with health concerns.

Just keep at it and follow the advice of more experienced. Hopefully once she is acclimated you will have much smoother sailing with all her issues. :smile:


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## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

monkeys23 said:


> Just keep at it and follow the advice of more experienced. Hopefully once she is acclimated you will have much smoother sailing with all her issues. :smile:


I hope so - she will probably be fine but I may have a stroke!

Just had a poop - skinny but firm. And best of all, no strain whatsoever. It popped right out in about 2 seconds. Probably the easiest poop she's had in the 13 months I've had her. Now, if I can just keep that going we'll deal with the weight issue.


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## DaneMama (Jun 27, 2008)

Thats awesome!!! Keep up the good work....


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## CavePaws (Jan 25, 2011)

Yay!!:thumb::happy::grouphug:


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