# What do you think of this reply from Champion?



## Unosmom (May 3, 2009)

I dont know how many people are aware that since meat meals are not considered human grade, once they are sent to a rendering facility, they need to be denatured, which means:



> ) All meats that are not to be used for “human consumption” but are to be sold after slaughter are to be denatured as per government regulations to prevent them from being rerouted and used for human consumption. The denatured carcasses and other waste can then be transported to the rendering facility. This is done by adding sufficient quantities of dye, charcoal, malodorous fish oil, acid, sodium pentobarbital (poison used to euthanize pets) fuel oil, kerosene, crude carbolic acid (phenol, a potentially corrosive disinfectant), creosote (used to preserve wood or as a disinfectant) and citronella (an insect repellent made from lemon grass) are the approved denaturing materials approved in both Canada and United States.


The truth about the pet food industry Urban Green Girl

In my book thats far worse then using a fish meal preserved with EQ. 

Anyways, I emailed Champion few days ago and heres the reply I got:

*Hello Victoria,

Thank you for your email and for your patience as I researched your question.

The fresh meats that we use are all passed fit for human consumption right up to the time they enter our process. As a result, they do not need to be denatured. If the meat from the supplier did not meet all the requirements to be fit for human consumption including the temperature of the meat at shipping from the supplier then it would be required to be denatured. We do not use this type of meat as an ingredient therefore our meats are not denatured.

We literally use the same products that enter the human food chain including all quality checks right through the entire process- our trucks are refrigerated to keep the meat at the proper cold temperatures, our bins are food-grade sanitized bins that are insulated to keep the meat clean and cold, our product spec is identical to human consumption meat. We DO NOT use condemned meat that originated from human consumption animals but has had something happen to it such as it is too warm and thus won’t stay human consumption status or has landed on the floor for example. This type of meat would be required to be denatured and intended only for animal consumption.

If you have any other questions or concerns please feel free to write back.

Warm Regards,

Bonnie
Customer Care
Champion Petfoods LP
p 780.939.6888*


Since she only addressed fresh meats, I emailed her back asking about meal meals:

me;

*Bonnie,l understand that this applies to fresh meats, but what about meat meals? since those are rendered and cannot be considered human grade. 

Thanks*


Reply:

*Hi Victoria,

As the meats that are used to make our meals are from human grade ingredients as well, these meats are not denatured. The ‘passed fit for human consumption’ designation is actually part of the European Union’s pet food legislation (Regulation 1774) and the CFIA certifies all of our ingredients meet this standard. The standard we are held to is that ALL animals used to produce pet food ingredients must pass both pre & post mortem inspection by a federal meat inspector or officer within a federally approved processing facility. Again, there are no exceptions to this rule.

In order to quality as an EU 1774 ‘passed fit’ ingredient, the ingredient processor (such as our chicken renderer, for example) can handle ONLY ‘passed fit’ ingredients. They cannot have ANY animal ingredient on their premises that is not certified to human-grade standard. There are no exceptions to this rule, and all animal ingredient suppliers are registered with the CFIA, who audits us 4 times each year.

I hope this helps!

Warm Regards,

Bonnie*


What do you guys think?


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## RachelsaurusRexU (Sep 4, 2010)

I don't know about the response you received, but HOLY CRAP, I was not aware of the denaturing process. Please don't ever stop sharing your knowledge! I'm *definitely* posting that little gem on facebook.


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## RachelsaurusRexU (Sep 4, 2010)

Could you please post the link to that quote about denaturing? I can't fit the whole thing in a facebook post


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## Unosmom (May 3, 2009)

Theres a very in depth discussion that you can read (its several pages long, but its worth it). 

http://itchmoforums.com/pet-food-qu...d-ingredients-in-pet-foods-t8475.0.html;wap2=

also

http://law.justia.com/us/cfr/title09/9-2.0.2.1.24.0.21.13.html


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## bdb5853 (May 21, 2010)

There's a really good post on denaturants in pet food on a yorkie board. Someone was asking about denaturant in their Nature's Variety pre-made raw and it has a good picture of what the denaturant looks like (charcoal bits.) 

NV RAW: black coal-like pallets aka denaturant - YorkieTalk.com Forums - Yorkshire Terrier Community


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## cast71 (Sep 16, 2010)

Sounds like another way to get rid of industrial byproducts


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## SamWu1 (Oct 15, 2010)

That's the primary reason for all these new products containing only fresh meats and no meals at all. Unless you're at the actual rendering plant when the meals are produced, there really isn't a way for you to be 100% certain of the quality of a meat meal or its contents.

Then there's the debate of the animal content of a food that only contains whole meat and how much of its protein content is derived from animal sourcres and not from plant matter.

The solution to this dilemma? Feed raw or homecooked if you don't want to rely on pet food makers to provide for your dog's nutritional needs. Unless you do that, there's really no other way to ensure what's in his bowl when it's dinnertime.

I was considering using Orijen Regional Red for a foster I'm picking up Saturday but it just seems ridiculous. I want her to thrive, not simply to survive. If something would ever happen to me where I would no longer be able to care for Kane, I would turn over in my grave if the caretaker was feeding him dried food pellets.


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## Unosmom (May 3, 2009)

I wish I could feed raw full time, but its just too expensive right now, Uno is about 30% raw fed.


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## cast71 (Sep 16, 2010)

SamWu1 said:


> The solution to this dilemma? Feed raw or homecooked if you don't want to rely on pet food makers to provide for your dog's nutritional needs. Unless you do that, there's really no other way to ensure what's in his bowl when it's dinnertime.


Unfortunately that's the only way to really know what your feeding your pet. I don not trust any company. Even for human food. Every once in a while you hear a horror story. Mouse in a bag of potato chips 



SamWu1 said:


> If something would ever happen to me where I would no longer be able to care for Kane, I would turn over in my grave if the caretaker was feeding him dried food pellets.


Your extreme but funny. Thanks for the laugh:biggrin:


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## SamWu1 (Oct 15, 2010)

Unosmom said:


> I wish I could feed raw full time, but its just too expensive right now, Uno is about 30% raw fed.


Really? What kibble do you feed?


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## Unosmom (May 3, 2009)

Right now Uno is on wellness core.


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## PUNKem733 (Jun 12, 2009)

Raw is too expensive? From everything every raw feeder says it's A LOT cheaper than kibble. You're talking about .80 cents to $2.00 a pound for most raw meats.


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## cast71 (Sep 16, 2010)

I emailed TOTW and got this response

The meat is coming from plants that are processing the meat for human consumption, but once it is sold to us (a pet food company) it is considered feed grade.

The meat meals come from animals that are being processed for human consumption. The meals are always considered feed grade. (The ocean fish meal is menhaden fish which is not normally used for food by people. The fish is small, has a lot of oil, and contains a high percentage of bones.)

Sincerely,

Cordell Schroeder

Quality Control Manager

Diamond Pet Foods

Still doesn't answer if there using denatured meat and denatured meat meals??? I emailed them again asking the same question, but more specific, *IS IT DENATURED???* Just because the meats are coming from animals being proccessed for human consumption doesn't mean anything. I have a feeling it is denatured There probablly getting whatever is not considered food grade and than its denatured before they get it. Since they already said the meat meals are feed gradE, it probablly is denatured as well. We'll see what there response is These stupid companies with there typical corporate respones Bunch of slithering snakes!


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## josh83 (Oct 24, 2010)

Should I be concerned because iam feeding my dog Orijen?


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## bdb5853 (May 21, 2010)

My daughter works for a very large agricultural company in a turkey processing plant. She said that on the line where the birds are processed, there are buckets. When tumors are trimmed off or bruises, heads, feet - anything not edible for humans - it is thrown in the buckets. These buckets of rejected parts are then put in a large vat and sold to pet food companies. 

So when you see "turkey" as an ingredient in your pets food - is it really turkey - like you'd buy for Thanksgiving??? Or is it the head, the tumors, the bruises. Who really knows.


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## cast71 (Sep 16, 2010)

PUNKem733 said:


> Raw is too expensive? From everything every raw feeder says it's A LOT cheaper than kibble. You're talking about .80 cents to $2.00 a pound for most raw meats.


Every dog is different. My dog has a fast metabolism. I had to feed him 2-3 lbs. a day. If I went to 2 lbs., he looked a little skinny. I was getting meat from $.49/lb to around $1.49/lb. At an average of around $1/lb., it was costing me around $90 bucks a month, plus $10 to run 2 freezers.


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## cast71 (Sep 16, 2010)

bdb5853 said:


> My daughter works for a very large agricultural company in a turkey processing plant. She said that on the line where the birds are processed, there are buckets. When tumors are trimmed off or bruises, heads, feet - anything not edible for humans - it is thrown in the buckets. These buckets of rejected parts are then put in a large vat and sold to pet food companies.
> 
> So when you see "turkey" as an ingredient in your pets food - is it really turkey - like you'd buy for Thanksgiving??? Or is it the head, the tumors, the bruises. Who really knows.


I don't care about bruises, heads, feet, guts. Tumors are a big no no.


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## cast71 (Sep 16, 2010)

josh83 said:


> Should I be concerned because iam feeding my dog Orijen?


I doubt it, that was a response from diamond. Maybe I should be worrying though


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## MollyWoppy (Mar 19, 2010)

Thanks so much for the info on charcoal in NV Unosmom. I can't believe it - Mollie eats raw, but I add NV lamb for variety as lamb is over $10 a lb round here. Man, am I gutted to read that they put charcoal in their food, and its not like it's inexpensive either. So, thats the end of that.


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## PUNKem733 (Jun 12, 2009)

cast71 said:


> Every dog is different. My dog has a fast metabolism. I had to feed him 2-3 lbs. a day. If I went to 2 lbs., he looked a little skinny. I was getting meat from $.49/lb to around $1.49/lb. At an average of around $1/lb., it was costing me around $90 bucks a month, plus $10 to run 2 freezers.


So I take it you spend less on kibble?


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## cast71 (Sep 16, 2010)

PUNKem733 said:


> So I take it you spend less on kibble?


Yeah, A 30 lb. bag last me around 5 weeks. It's costing me like $35 a month. I'm on a tight budget like most.


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## Unosmom (May 3, 2009)

Same here, I spend anywhere between $60-70 a month on raw vs. $30 a month on kibble (30 lb bag lasts 2 months), so its a pretty big price difference, especially when a person is on a tight student budget. Of course I have priorities and I would rather spend money on quality food for my dog and self vs. less meaningful things.


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## DaneMama (Jun 27, 2008)

PUNKem733 said:


> Raw is too expensive? From everything every raw feeder says it's A LOT cheaper than kibble. You're talking about .80 cents to $2.00 a pound for most raw meats.


Raw is typically cheaper than kibble, quality kibble worth feeding that is. BUT there are parts of the world that raw meat is either hard to come by or it is very expensive. Just depends on where one lives. Usually if you have a major city within a few hours drive you could feed a raw diet that is either comparable in price or cheaper than say Orijen.


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## cast71 (Sep 16, 2010)

danemama08 said:


> Raw is typically cheaper than kibble, quality kibble worth feeding that is. BUT there are parts of the world that raw meat is either hard to come by or it is very expensive. Just depends on where one lives. Usually if you have a major city within a few hours drive you could feed a raw diet that is either comparable in price or cheaper than say Orijen.


What do you think of part of the diet consisting on raw and the rest kibble? Not fed at the same time. Say 3 days raw and 4 days kibble. Is it bad in the long run? Also the raw part wouldn't be well balanced. It would be mostly sale meats like quarters, chickens, turkeys, pork shoulders.


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## DaneMama (Jun 27, 2008)

If you were to attempt half raw and half kibble I would suggest just separating it by meals AM and PM. Feed raw for breakfast and kibble for dinner. Giving at least 12 hours between the kibble meal and the raw meal. So for example, feed raw at 8am and kibble at 6pm. That way there is plenty of time for the kibble to leave the stomach. Raw takes a fraction of the time it does for kibble to digest. So less time would be needed between the raw meal in the morning and the kibble meal in the evening. Thats what I suggest you try if you want to do half and half. Some dogs do just fine with this but others have a really hard time with it. But there's only one way to find out and nothing to lose right?


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## cast71 (Sep 16, 2010)

danemama08 said:


> If you were to attempt half raw and half kibble I would suggest just separating it by meals AM and PM. Feed raw for breakfast and kibble for dinner. Giving at least 12 hours between the kibble meal and the raw meal. So for example, feed raw at 8am and kibble at 6pm. That way there is plenty of time for the kibble to leave the stomach. Raw takes a fraction of the time it does for kibble to digest. So less time would be needed between the raw meal in the morning and the kibble meal in the evening. Thats what I suggest you try if you want to do half and half. Some dogs do just fine with this but others have a really hard time with it. But there's only one way to find out and nothing to lose right?


I still feed him raw a few days out of the week with no problems. I never mix kibble and raw the same day. I wait overnight, so all the kibble is processed. Than I feed raw for a few days. I don't do this every week either. It's when meats go on sale. Plus I have very little freezer space. My question was do you think it bad long term? I think I remember people posting that after awhile they started having problems. I haven't done it consistently to get any problems yet. I haven't gave him any raw in at least a month or longer. I use to feed all raw, but it became too expensive for me. My dog eats alot and hardly gains weight. I wish I was like that ahahaha The other thing is, do you think it's balanced nutrition, when your not really rotating many raw meats? I know your suppose to feed a large variety in a strictly raw diet.


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## DaneMama (Jun 27, 2008)

cast71 said:


> I still feed him raw a few days out of the week with no problems. I never mix kibble and raw the same day. I wait overnight, so all the kibble is processed. Than I feed raw for a few days. I don't do this every week either. It's when meats go on sale. Plus I have very little freezer space. My question was do you think it bad long term? I think I remember people posting that after awhile they started having problems. I haven't done it consistently to get any problems yet. I haven't gave him any raw in at least a month or longer. I use to feed all raw, but it became too expensive for me. My dog eats alot and hardly gains weight. I wish I was like that ahahaha The other thing is, do you think it's balanced nutrition, when your not really rotating many raw meats? I know your suppose to feed a large variety in a strictly raw diet.


Honestly I have no clue. I'm sure it would be fine to do it the way that you are as far as nutrition goes, dogs survive on much less. I don't know the long term effects of feeding this way though...I would at least try and rotate a few different raw meats but honestly I don't know if a dog could handle that or not. Guess it depends on the dog.


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## cast71 (Sep 16, 2010)

danemama08 said:


> Honestly I have no clue. I'm sure it would be fine to do it the way that you are as far as nutrition goes, dogs survive on much less. I don't know the long term effects of feeding this way though...I would at least try and rotate a few different raw meats but honestly I don't know if a dog could handle that or not. Guess it depends on the dog.


Thanks for the help. He does good when I switch some meats around. One time he found part of a deer carcuss and didn't get sick from that. Boy was that smelly. We had to chase him away from it ahahahaha. I was just curious if it was healthier than just feeding kibble alone. Also I dont want to do any harm switching him back and forth between kibble and raw. I'm thinking of doing more raw if I could. I'm getting very frustrated with these dog food companies. Seems the more that I learn, the more angrier I get


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## SamWu1 (Oct 15, 2010)

cast71 said:


> Your extreme but funny. Thanks for the laugh:biggrin:


No problem. :biggrin:


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## Ania's Mommy (Feb 8, 2009)

Did not know about the denaturing. Ew. That's pretty alarming.

I think that Champion's reply was exactly what I wanted to hear. It sounds like the end product does not contain any denatured meat. I still feel that they are the best in the biz.


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## cast71 (Sep 16, 2010)

After hearing champions response and diamonds response, I decide to email a bunch of companies and see there response. Should I post all the responses I get? So far champion is the only one that seems straight forward.


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## Unosmom (May 3, 2009)

Thanks for doing that, I absolutely loathe calling anyone, especially companies. I did call Wellness and they were friendly and forthcoming, but the girl on the phone didnt really know what denaturing meant, she just said nothing is added to the meat meals, but she didnt sound very convincing. So emailed the company again (I originally did it through FB, but got a reply to call them). 

We'll see what they have to say. Either way, I feel pretty comfortable sticking with champion now. 

cast71- theres nothing wrong with feeding both kibble and raw (though best not to do it in one meal as previously mentioned). I think regardless what one can afford to feed, variety is the key. It helps to balance out an otherwise imbalanced diet. 
I have some relatives overseas and commercial kibble is very expensive, even the cheap stuff like pedigree, I looked up the price of Diamond the other day and it was $110 for 30 lbs.  So you can imagine that majority of people do not feed their dogs kibble. My aunt has a dog that eats table scraps, she buys various grains, cuts of meats, byproducts(chicken heads, organs, etc), then usually cooks it all up and thats what he eats. They feed what they can afford and the dog is suprisingly healthy and robust. 

Dogs are much better at utilizing nutrients then humans, doesent mean that we have to resort to feeding them human waste, but get what you can afford and change it up. 
With that said, I dont know how I would feel if someone had 5 dogs and fed them ol' roy, as selfish as it may sound, I dont think someone should have that many dogs if they cant afford to feed them at least a mid-grade food like diamond. It makes me question whether the owner is capable of providing the animals with proper vet care when needed.


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## cast71 (Sep 16, 2010)

I emailed wellness as well. See if I get a response. 

I got a email from natures logic asking me to identify my self. Silly games.

Thanks for the input on raw/kibble diet. I already knew about raw getting digested faster than kibble, so I never fed him both the same day. I know it's over kill, but better safe than canon butt ahahahaha. 

The funny thing about ol'roy is, it isn't cheaper at all. My friend fed both his dogs it. After scaring him with recalls, he finally switched to diamond natural. Not only does his dogs look great, he feeds almost half the amount. He does give alot of table scraps as well. He's always done that though. The dogs table scraps are better than what I eat. He spoils them in that way. There a little on the healthy side as far as weight goes. 

I'll post the responses I get from the companies. I appreciate you contacting Orijen. It got me motivated.


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## cast71 (Sep 16, 2010)

Got this response from natures logic


"We source all of our ingredients; fruits, veggies, meats, poultry, and meals from human processing plants. All of our animal protein ingredients come from human edible food sources; food you could eat.

I am not sure what your understanding of danatured means. The "denatured" I will discuss below is not a rendering down of a protein, but just a marker for human safety concerns.

The fresh animal protein ingredients we use in our frozen and canned products and to make our protein meals are transferred from human processing plants to pet food plants. It is required by law that these items have a denaturant put on them so they will not mistakenly go back into the human food chain after being in a pet food plant. Most pet food companies get in ingredients with charcoal or a food grade red dye used as a denaturant marker. The charcoal or red dye is put on the outside of the product. 

One other denaturant approved and allowed by the FDA and USDA is ground bone in the product. We use ground bone in our products because we do not want the charcoal or red dye in our ingredients.

I am sure you will agree with these practices. They are in place so companies do not buy fresh chicken for a pet food plant, and then try to resell it to the human food chain.

Please let me know if you have any other questions.

Sincerely,

Scott Freeman
Nature's Logic
3534 South 48th Street
Suite 3B
Lincoln, NE 68506
Tel. 402-475-7663
Fax. 402-475-7665
Toll Free 888-546-0636
[email protected]"

I sent another email asking if there meats and meals contain ground bone instead of dies and charcoal. Also I asked if there meat and meals quality is the same as human grade, or did it not pass human grade, than denatured and sold off to pet food companies.


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## cast71 (Sep 16, 2010)

This was the follow up email I got from natures logic. 

"Yes, we grind our meat and poultry with bone in so it is accepted as a natural denaturant. No human would want to eat a product with ground bone in it.

I guess the best way to explain to you our ingredients is that we do not use all breast of chicken or prime rib of beef. No pet food company does.

Here is a true scenario to give you a look at what we use. MBA Poultry is located right here in Lincoln. We get fresh combos of chicken from them to make some of our products here in Lincoln. The combos (containers) are fllled with fresh dressed chicken backs; some quarters (legs and thighs), some wings and a lot of what is called frames. The frames are mainly the rib cage with the white meat on it after the breast is cut off.

We do not use whole dressed chickens, and I don't know of a pet food company that does. We use all the good parts from human processing, but it doesn't look like a whole dressed chicken you would purchase at the store. This same product goes to the canning facility to be made into canned food and to the plant to cook it into our chicken meal. I would eat the chicken wings and quarters anytime and have been tempted to put some on the pit.

Hope this helps."

It sounds like there using ground bone denatured meats. As far as quality, they state there's not prime rib in there lol. They also state that they do not know of any dog food company that uses whole meats. I wonder what kind of meats orijen is using? Natures logic states there not using premium cuts. There using chicken backs, quarters, legs. They did get back to me pretty quick and didn't get mad at my questions ahahahaha. I emailed TOTW, natures logic, natures variety, wellness, fromm, merrick, earthborn, canidae, natura maybe 1 or 2 others. So far I only heard back from diamond and natures logic. Diamond still hasn't replied to my follow up email.


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## RawFedDogs (Jun 16, 2008)

cast71 said:


> I guess the best way to explain to you our ingredients is that we do not use all breast of chicken or prime rib of beef. No pet food company does.


What he/she is saying here is they don't use the good cuts of meat in their meals. And it's correct, no one does.



> Here is a true scenario to give you a look at what we use. MBA Poultry is located right here in Lincoln. We get fresh combos of chicken from them to make some of our products here in Lincoln. The combos (containers) are fllled with fresh dressed chicken backs; some quarters (legs and thighs), some wings and a lot of what is called frames. The frames are mainly the rib cage with the white meat on it after the breast is cut off.


This is an absolutely true statement worded to make you think its more than it is. By far, the greatest percentage of stuff in the chicken meal are frames. These are the carcass of the chicken after head, wings, legs and thighs and all the rest of human usuable meat has been removed. The few backs, wings, quarters that are in there are stuff that has dropped in the floor or has othewise had something happen to make it no longer human useable. It's just mostly bone and connective tissue with very little meat or fat. The reason that meal is measured in dry weight is that bone doesn't hold water. Water wouldn't raise the weight appreciably.



> We do not use whole dressed chickens, and I don't know of a pet food company that does.


Another very true statement. None do.



> We use all the good parts from human processing, but it doesn't look like a whole dressed chicken you would purchase at the store. This same product goes to the canning facility to be made into canned food and to the plant to cook it into our chicken meal. I would eat the chicken wings and quarters anytime and have been tempted to put some on the pit.


They are good parts that something has happened to to make them unsalable in the human food market.



> It sounds like there using ground bone denatured meats. As far as quality, they state there's not prime rib in there lol. They also state that they do not know of any dog food company that uses whole meats. I wonder what kind of meats orijen is using?


They are talking about in the meals but also none of this high quality meat is used in any dog food. Dog food gets the low quality ultra cheap stuff. If they do use some expensive stuff its in such low volume as to be inconsequential. Only enough so they can say its in there.


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## cast71 (Sep 16, 2010)

I'm beginning to think that if you feed kibble, it would be wise to supplement with meats, either table scraps, cooked or raw. 

I'm really not impressed with these corporate responses either. There always evading the truth, with there slippery responses. Makes you think what's going on with human foods as well. Scary


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## buddy97 (Mar 29, 2010)

RawFedDogs said:


> This is an absolutely true statement worded to make you think its more than it is. By far, the greatest percentage of stuff in the chicken meal are frames. These are the carcass of the chicken after head, wings, legs and thighs and all the rest of human usuable meat has been removed. The few backs, wings, quarters that are in there are stuff that has dropped in the floor or has othewise had something happen to make it no longer human useable. It's just mostly bone and connective tissue with very little meat or fat. The reason that meal is measured in dry weight is that bone doesn't hold water. Water wouldn't raise the weight appreciably.
> .


someone i have recently spoke to (not working for any pet food manufacturer) indicated that there are 5 grades of meat meal used in pet foods, the highest grade being meal that is lower in ash and bone content. this makes sense to me, as a food like orijen uses mostly named meat meals to make up their dog food. if those meals were comprised from mainly bone, id think keeping the calcium levels down and protein % up would be nearly impossible, as there are few ingredients there that would boost the protein % (other than the named meats).

also, my understanding is that EU standaerds would not even allow for some of the scenarios you outlined. not all pet food manufacturers operate under EU standards, but some of the more reputable ones do.


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## RawFedDogs (Jun 16, 2008)

buddy97 said:


> also, my understanding is that EU standaerds would not even allow for some of the scenarios you outlined. not all pet food manufacturers operate under EU standards, but some of the more reputable ones do.


I'm not that familiar with ED standards. Which ones of the things I mentioned wouldn't be allowed?

*Doing The Math*
_Now when I go to the grocer or health food store and find these types of ingredients in raw, unprocessed, fresh packaged form, I don't see hardly anything for $1 a pound, let alone 50 cents. Some of the organic meats are more than $15 a pound! Something's afoul. But people are just not putting two and two together. How could a producer buy such expensive ingredients (as they are leading the public to believe they do) transport them to their "human grade" factory, grind, mix, extrude, retort, freeze, package, ship, advertise and pay salespeople and hefty margins to distributors, brokers and retailers and then sell them at retail for less than the cost of the bare starting materials? They can't. So obviously manufactured pet foods making such claims are misleading (to put it gently). They may have organic filet mignon and caviar in the food but it would have to be an inconsequential sprinkle at best. Consumers must do the math and get realistic in their expectations._

http://www.wysong.net/health/hl_969.shtml


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## buddy97 (Mar 29, 2010)

actually, Orijen (as an example) does reference using fish and chicken meals that are not comprised of mostly bone, which is completely contrary to your assertion.


_Rather than relying solely on conventional
meat meals as the source of animal protein,
ORIJEN incorporates a wide variety of deboned
fresh meats (that are low in mineral
content), as well as specially prepared ‘low
ash’ chicken & fish meals that have *bones
removed* prior to processing_

doing the math, i fail to comprehend how they could keep their Ca levels so much lower than many of their competitors, yet at the same time use chicken and fish meals comprised of mostly bone. that doesnt add up for me.

is my conclusion that a food like orijen is as healthy as feeding raw? no. however, i certainly believe that certain manufacturers do make kibbles of a higher standard that many dogs can thrive on.


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## RawFedDogs (Jun 16, 2008)

buddy97 said:


> doing the math, i fail to comprehend how they could keep their Ca levels so much lower than many of their competitors, yet at the same time use chicken and fish meals comprised of mostly bone. that doesnt add up for me.


It's possible, I guess, but their meals would be A LOT more expensive then regular meals. I still have reservations.



> is my conclusion that a food like orijen is as healthy as feeding raw? no. however, i certainly believe that certain manufacturers do make kibbles of a higher standard that many dogs can thrive on.


IMO dogs can thrive on them almost as well has humans could thrive on a diet made up 100% of cereal. :smile:


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## jiml (Jun 29, 2010)

IMO dogs can thrive on them almost as well has humans could thrive on a diet made up 100% of cereal.>>>>


LOL. This is so over the top.


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## RawFedDogs (Jun 16, 2008)

jiml said:


> IMO dogs can thrive on them almost as well has humans could thrive on a diet made up 100% of cereal.>>>>
> 
> 
> LOL. This is so over the top.


Think so? Why?


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## DaneMama (Jun 27, 2008)

jiml said:


> IMO dogs can thrive on them almost as well has humans could thrive on a diet made up 100% of cereal.>>>>
> 
> 
> LOL. This is so over the top.


I think it would depend on the cereal. There are cereals like Kashi and Grape Nuts that are full of nutrition (in human standards) but still not an ideal diet overall. Captain Crunch and Fruit Loops may provide some nutrition but definitely not ideal in the slightest bit. I guess you can compare the different kinds of human cereals to dog foods based on ingredients and who makes it. Like comparing Orijen with Ol Roy. But would either human cereal stand a chance when compared to fresh egg omelet with fresh veggies, low fat cheese and a glass of orange/mango juice? Absolutely not. That's the difference between commercially processed foods and fresh whole unprocessed foods.


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## cast71 (Sep 16, 2010)

I kind of agree with both sides. I do agree that the higher end kibbles are using better quality ingredients. I still don't think there using choice cuts. I definitely think orijen is using better quality meats and meals, that any diamond product is using. Common sense says, there aren't going to be human grade foods in any kibble. It would be too expensive. There getting whatever is left over from human grade meats. That's fine. I think that any kibble fed dog should be supplemented with extra meat, in the form of table scraps, cooked or raw. How many years have dogs been eating table scraps? I don't usually give table scraps, but a good friend has been doing this for years. He was feeding ol'roy as well. His dogs have always looked good(they look better since switching to diamond natural) and he almost never goes to a vet. He only brings them in when there sick and thats rare. So in my opinion, my friends dogs are thriving. I think I will be feeding more table scraps and raw;0)


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## k9capture_16 (Aug 23, 2010)

Wow..

Some time ago on another forum I am on I actually called Hills, Purina, pedigree and someone else. I asked specific questions such as why do you use corn, are dogs omnivores or carnivores and your logic behind coming to that decision etc.

I am starting to wonder if I should create a thread and actually cross post these in case anyone ever needs a good laugh?


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## SamWu1 (Oct 15, 2010)

There should be no argument between the nutritional value of whole foods vs. processed.


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## cast71 (Sep 16, 2010)

Here is natura's response


Thank you for contacting Natura Pet Products with your concerns regarding our foods. Our meats and meal are not denatured before they are used. Natura makes every effort to secure high quality ingredients as a foundation for manufacturing our super premium food. Our products do contain ingredients from suppliers which also supply foods for human consumption. However, by law, once an ingredient enters into a pet food facility it becomes a “feed” ingredient and can no longer be classified a “food” ingredient. 

Natura’s products are subjected to well over 100 defined quality control checks throughout the manufacturing process. Along with the use of only the highest-quality ingredients, these structured and rigorous checks ensure the highest-quality and safest pet food you can buy. 
Multiple tests must be passed and specifications must be met for all raw materials and at many key control points during the manufacturing process before any food, treat or supplement makes it out of the manufacturing facility and onto the shelves of your local retailer. 
Some of the key points in Natura’s Quality Management and Manufacturing Process that have numerous checks are:
• Material Supplier Selection & Approval
• Delivered Raw Material Inspection, Analysis & Traceability
• Accurate Recipe Assembly & Consistent Mixing
• Monitoring of the Cooking Process with In-process Specifications Confirmed
• Correct Packaging Verification & Tracking
• Ingredient & Finished Product Testing including for melamine & cyanuric acid
• Warehouse Inventory Management with Full Traceability of Ingredients & Finished Products
All checks conducted require quality control verification. Some of the checks used involve laboratory analysis for a nutrient such as protein or for a potential naturally occurring toxin such as aflatoxin.
Other checks involve a sensory assessment by an experienced technician for product characteristics such as color and aroma.
In addition, many more in-depth analyses on a detailed and structured schedule are performed on both raw materials and finished products.
Taken together, these measures enable Natura to make the healthiest pet food in the world.

If you have any additional questions or concerns please feel free to contact me at your convenience.

Best Regards

Ember, Licensed Veterinary Technician
Natura Product Advisor


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## cast71 (Sep 16, 2010)

Here is midwestern petfoods response. The make earthborn holistic primitive natural.

Thank you for your interest in our pet food. Our meat and meat meals are not denatured. We don't make the claim that our ingredients are human grade. In fact, there is no AAFCO (Association of American Feed Control Officials) definition for human grade ingredients for pet food. We use the highest quality ingredients available for our pet food.

Cindy Montgomery
VP, Marketing
Midwestern Pet Foods, Inc.
9634 Hedden Road
Evansville, IN 47725
p 812-867-4504, ext. 107


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## cast71 (Sep 16, 2010)

I think there all lying. If it's not human grade meats, by law it has to be denatured!


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## cast71 (Sep 16, 2010)

Wellness's response

Thank you for taking the time to write about Wellness® Dry Dog Food.

Our proteins are in fact denatured with charcoal which is of no harm to your pet.

We are not currently allowed to use the term on our packaging per AAFCO (Association of American Feed Control Officials) regulations. AAFCO needs to officially define the term in order for it to be used. Also, keep in mind that "human grade" is a great way to talk about quality but our formulas are made specifically to meet the nutritional requirements of canines and felines and should not be promoted to be consumed by humans as a low cost diet.

Thanks again for contacting us.

Mike Monahan
Representative
Consumer Affairs


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## RCTRIPLEFRESH5 (Feb 11, 2010)

cast71 said:


> Wellness's response
> 
> Thank you for taking the time to write about Wellness® Dry Dog Food.
> 
> ...


wanna email canidae?


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## RCTRIPLEFRESH5 (Feb 11, 2010)

cast71 said:


> I think there all lying. If it's not human grade meats, by law it has to be denatured!


tell them this! wanna see their responses.


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## cast71 (Sep 16, 2010)

I did email canidae along with a bunch of others. I asked if they use denatured meats and are they using human grade meats? I guess they didn't like my questions, because they never got back.

champion - no denatured meats or meals. They use human grade meats and human grade meats to make there meals:smile:

Canidae - never responded(probably use denatured meats)

Fromm - never responded(probably use denatured meats)

natures variety - never responded(probably use denatured meats)

Wellness - yes they use charcoal

natures logic - yes they use bone meal

diamond - beat around the bush as always lol(probably use denatured meats)

earthborn holistics - they claim they do not use denatured meats. They also state they do not use human grade meats, which means it has to be denatured(probably lying and using denatured meats)

natura - beat around the bush(probably use denatured meats)


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## RCTRIPLEFRESH5 (Feb 11, 2010)

ugh...im through with canidae..im tempted to switch to orijen...im just worried they irradiate their foods even though im in america


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## schtuffy (May 17, 2010)

cast71 said:


> Also, keep in mind that "human grade" is a great way to talk about quality but our formulas are made specifically to meet the nutritional requirements of canines and felines and should not be promoted to be consumed by humans as a low cost diet.


Sorry, this last part just made me giggle..."Honey, since we are strapped for cash, we're having Wellness for dinner tonight!"


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## cast71 (Sep 16, 2010)

schtuffy said:


> Sorry, this last part just made me giggle..."Honey, since we are strapped for cash, we're having Wellness for dinner tonight!"


Thanks for pointing that out and giving me a good laugh:biggrin: I missed that part. Pretty funny. I hope you don't mind the taste of charcoal tonight ahahahaha


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## cast71 (Sep 16, 2010)

RCTRIPLEFRESH5 said:


> ugh...im through with canidae..im tempted to switch to orijen...im just worried they irradiate their foods even though im in america


I'm really liking acana these days:biggrin: Are you concerned with the high acceptable radon levels in canada? Otherwise you lost me. If your concerned about radon, I wouldn't worry because air destroys it. So as long as the animals are outside, there healthy:smile:


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## PUNKem733 (Jun 12, 2009)

RCTRIPLEFRESH5 said:


> ugh...im through with canidae..im tempted to switch to orijen...im just worried they irradiate their foods even though im in america


WOW, I mean just wow. Besides the cases in Australia that only involved cats, have you seen or heard of any other incidents anywhere in the world?


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## RCTRIPLEFRESH5 (Feb 11, 2010)

cast71 said:


> I'm really liking acana these days:biggrin: Are you concerned with the high acceptable radon levels in canada? Otherwise you lost me. If your concerned about radon, I wouldn't worry because air destroys it. So as long as the animals are outside, there healthy:smile:


yeah im concerned about radiation going in shanes food, especially considering the price of orijen lol..u lost me on the lat sentence...isnt the food irradiated..not the animal


PUNKem733 said:


> WOW, I mean just wow. Besides the cases in Australia that only involved cats, have you seen or heard of any other incidents anywhere in the world?


well before the austrailia incident happened i hadn't heard of any incidents anywhere...but it still occurred.


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## cast71 (Sep 16, 2010)

RCTRIPLEFRESH5 said:


> yeah im concerned about radiation going in shanes food, especially considering the price of orijen lol..u lost me on the lat sentence...isnt the food irradiated..not the animal
> 
> 
> well before the austrailia incident happened i hadn't heard of any incidents anywhere...but it still occurred.


Sorry I got lossed for a sec ahahahaha I found this info



> The company, which exports to 50 countries, said only
> Australia demanded its pet food be irradiated because
> Orijen was not highly processed or cooked at the same
> high temperatures as most other imported pet foods.


I wouldn't worry. THey only irradiated food for Australia and I bet they will never do it again:biggrin: Also I think champion would be the company, for the least chance of a future recalls. I know you wanna buy american, but this might have to be an exception:smile:


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## RCTRIPLEFRESH5 (Feb 11, 2010)

cast71 said:


> Sorry I got lossed for a sec ahahahaha I found this info
> 
> 
> 
> I wouldn't worry. THey only irradiated food for Australia and I bet they will never do it again:biggrin: Also I think champion would be the company, for the least chance of a future recalls. I know you wanna buy american, but this might have to be an exception:smile:


well that was really the only reason i wanted to buy american haha not because of my patriotism...but now u got me scared wirth ur previous post saying they irradiate the livestocks in canada or soemthing?


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## cast71 (Sep 16, 2010)

RCTRIPLEFRESH5 said:


> well that was really the only reason i wanted to buy american haha not because of my patriotism...but now u got me scared wirth ur previous post saying they irradiate the livestocks in canada or soemthing?


Forget my lat statement. I got lost, because I didn't know about the recall in austrailia involving the iiradicated food. I thought you where talking about radon levels ahahaha Canada has a higher safe minimium level of radon levels than USA allows. Radon is found in houses, buildings.... Air destroys it. So I got lost a little, but found my way back:biggrin: I do like buying american if I can. It's hard these days We need more products made in USA. I remeber when I was a kid, I always use to look for the flag on the tag. Haven't seen that in forever


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## RCTRIPLEFRESH5 (Feb 11, 2010)

cast71 said:


> Forget my lat statement. I got lost, because I didn't know about the recall in austrailia involving the iiradicated food. I thought you where talking about radon levels ahahaha Canada has a higher safe minimium level of radon levels than USA allows. Radon is found in houses, buildings.... Air destroys it. So I got lost a little, but found my way back:biggrin: I do like buying american if I can. It's hard these days We need more products made in USA. I remeber when I was a kid, I always use to look for the flag on the tag. Haven't seen that in forever


well that bothers me too. the safer radon levels.


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## DarDog (Sep 6, 2010)

I'm pretty sure radon is only a problem if you are actually breathing the gas in (and that only seems to be a problem in people living in houses that have high uranium soil/rock underneath). It's not going to get into the dog food and just chill.


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## lovmydog (Dec 10, 2010)

My golden has been on Orijen for two years, she is 3 now. This past weekend she developed pancreatitis - so no more Orijen. The fat content is too high. I feel really bad, because I thought this was the best food possible; but makes no difference now if your dog can't handle it. So off to find another dog food that is low in fat but still has the quality and safety. Hard to find.


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