# AVMA voting to adopt policy AGAINST RAW feeding!



## ShanniBella

Another right trying to be taken away from us raw feeders. Looks like the big manufacturing companies are on board of course such as Purina to keep us from feeding raw and wanting us to feed their crappy dog kibble. Interesting read so I wanted to share 

Raw Feeding for Cats and Dogs


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## Love my lab

Propose all they want.....seriously what is this world coming to??? I know I will not stop feeding raw. I guess next step is to try and tell americans they have to buy this food or that food to feed their families and can no longer grow their own gardens because the grocery stores are taking a hit too ??? I mean really purina or anyone for that matter doesn't have the right to tell one what to feed their pets.


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## Kibblelady

This not ordering anyone what to feed their pets or controlling what they feed their pets, it also has nothing to do with Purina.... It is simply a policy the AMVA is voting on as an official policy they support.

* Also there is already another thread on this with more information.


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## Herzo

They already are trying to tell us what to eat so telling us what to feed our pets wouldn't surprise me any.


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## Kibblelady

Herzo said:


> They already are trying to tell us what to eat so telling us what to feed our pets wouldn't surprise me any.


They are a private entity, this is not legislature, they are making a private policy concerning their members and what they support. It has nothing to do with what any of us prefer to feed.


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## naturalfeddogs

Kibblelady said:


> This not ordering anyone what to feed their pets or controlling what they feed their pets, it also has nothing to do with Purina.... It is simply a policy the AMVA is voting on as an official policy they support.
> 
> * Also there is already another thread on this with more information.


I think the mods locked it. It was getting too out of hand.


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## rannmiller

As long as we can keep it civil this time, the thread can stay open. Let's focus on the content and the subject.


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## RedneckCowgirl

Kibblelady said:


> They are a private entity, this is not legislature, they are making a private policy concerning their members and what they support. *It has nothing to do with what any of us prefer to feed.*


It does when its already hard enough to find a vet (at least around here) who either won't ask what you feed or doesn't give you loads of s*** every 5 minutes because you don't feed kibble. It does when my dogs can't be therapy dogs because they are raw fed. It does when I am wary of telling people what I feed because vets give it such a bad rap.


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## Caty M

It might not make too much of a difference now, but in making policies and such, the stand the AVMA makes can make a difference, for sure. It just gives more leverage for the anti-raw people.


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## Sapphire-Light

Besides the banning the selling of commercial pre-made raw foods, I'm not sure how they plan to stop people to buy meat to feed raw.

It's not like they are going to have a "anti raw" police watching the fridges in all grocery stores 24/7 asking people who get near if the raw ground chicken they are buying is for feeding their cat or if is to make yummy tacos for your sister, or having cameras in all the rooms in your house to be sure if the raw beef liver you got is to give it to your dog or it was your father who wanted it to make a tasty BBQ lunch.

Or if your dog gets sick and you take it to the vet they will lock the owner assuming the pet was fed raw or it was a piece of milkbone that was recalled wit salmonella the day before.

At least I haven't heard an exams (like a blood test) that proves 100% that your pet ate raw , and the results being trusty so they can be used in court against a owner.


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## nupe

RedneckCowgirl said:


> It does when its already hard enough to find a vet (at least around here) who either won't ask what you feed or doesn't give you loads of s*** every 5 minutes because you don't feed kibble. It does when my dogs can't be therapy dogs because they are raw fed. It does when I am wary of telling people what I feed because vets give it such a bad rap.



The Vet or people can only give you a load of crap if you let them....Who cares what people think , the dog or cat is your dog or cat not theres...tell them to kiss your butt. AS FAR THE VET HE WORKS FOR YOU , You dont work for him!!


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## RedneckCowgirl

nupe said:


> The Vet or people can only give you a load of crap if you let them....Who cares what people think , the dog or cat is your dog or cat not theres...tell them to kiss your butt. AS FAR THE VET HE WORKS FOR YOU , You dont work for him!!


Sorry, but when people leave the dog park because of what your dogs are fed, then yes, I sort of care what they think, because my dogs enjoy playing with other dogs and its good for them. And yes, vets work for me, but which is exactly why I don't have one right now, because I can't seem to find one that DOESN'T give me crap about feeding raw (or the fact that I refuse to speuter or vaccinate) and you know what that means? That means I can't buy a pup from a breeder, at least not a reputable one. It also means I can't adopt from the shelters or rescues around here because they see that I have owned Maddie for 4 years yet don't have a vet and that looks fishy. So yes, I do take this quite seriously. I'm sorry if others don't see it as as big of a deal as I do.


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## rannmiller

To be clear, this policy does not restrict people from buying raw food for their pets. It is simply their official stance on raw feeding that, unfortunately, will be regarded as intelligent information by any vets who don't do their own research on the matter. So most of them. However, it is very easy to point out that kibble also causes salmonella so they really don't have a leg to stand on. If your vet gives you any trouble for it, find another vet or threaten to.


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## RedneckCowgirl

rannmiller said:


> If your vet gives you any trouble for it, find another vet or threaten to.


I have talked to pretty much all but one vet in probably a 30mile radius or so. Granted, I haven't stopped searching, and will find one eventually even if it kills me! lol 

As for it not restricting feeding raw food, your correct. However, the fact that such a big association is taking a stand has quite a bit of pull for those who haven't realized that vets are there for medical issues, not nutritional ones


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## Kibblelady

rannmiller said:


> To be clear, this policy does not restrict people from buying raw food for their pets. It is simply their official stance on raw feeding that, unfortunately, will be regarded as intelligent information by any vets who don't do their own research on the matter. So most of them. However, it is very easy to point out that kibble also causes salmonella so they really don't have a leg to stand on. If your vet gives you any trouble for it, find another vet or threaten to.


What exactly is incorrect in the policy? (seriously, I am wondering what it is you guys see that is incorrect?) Being overly cautious or not trusting of it is opinion but what facts have they gotten incorrect?


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## Tobi

Kibblelady said:


> What exactly is incorrect in the policy? (seriously, I am wondering what it is you guys see that is incorrect?) Being overly cautious or not trusting of it is opinion but what facts have they gotten incorrect?


The fact that it is EXTREMELY one sided is the obvious flaw in it. As Rachel said, Kibble also has the capacity to cause serious illness, it has, and it will continue to, yet this "issue" is that RAW food is what will cause salmonella. Never once have i ever heard a vet tell me to handle my dogs kibble with care, and wash thoroughly after handling it or not to let them lick my face because of the bacteria.


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## BrownieM

RedneckCowgirl said:


> Sorry, but when people leave the dog park because of what your dogs are fed, then yes, I sort of care what they think, because my dogs enjoy playing with other dogs and its good for them. And yes, vets work for me, but which is exactly why I don't have one right now, because I can't seem to find one that DOESN'T give me crap about feeding raw (or the fact that I refuse to speuter or vaccinate) and you know what that means? That means I can't buy a pup from a breeder, at least not a reputable one. It also means I can't adopt from the shelters or rescues around here because they see that I have owned Maddie for 4 years yet don't have a vet and that looks fishy. So yes, I do take this quite seriously. I'm sorry if others don't see it as as big of a deal as I do.


Just tell everyone you feed kibble. It's none of their business anyway!  I learned to never bring up my raw feeding in dog parks, and with the general uppity public.
Jus


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## RedneckCowgirl

BrownieM said:


> Just tell everyone you feed kibble. It's none of their business anyway!  I learned to never bring up my raw feeding in dog parks, and with the general uppity public.
> Jus


But I can't do that, I'm too passionate about it. There have been a couple people that I have ended up having very lengthy discussions about it that if I just would have told them I feed kibble it would have gone no where. We usually end up talking about good kibble too, and if they seem receptive I give them the address to this site. Granted, it is worth it, but that doesn't make it right or fair that these people are so concerned with lining their pockets they brainwash the general public.


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## nupe

I would think the vet would back off after you threaten to switch vets??...no?....


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## Kibblelady

Tobi said:


> The fact that it is EXTREMELY one sided is the obvious flaw in it. As Rachel said, Kibble also has the capacity to cause serious illness, it has, and it will continue to, yet this "issue" is that RAW food is what will cause salmonella. Never once have i ever heard a vet tell me to handle my dogs kibble with care, and wash thoroughly after handling it or not to let them lick my face because of the bacteria.


I realize you guys are frustrated with the kibble aspect and I addressed this in a post on the other thread but this is not simply about some salmonella. To me it is about the potential for various pathogens, the chance they are there (all samplings say high probability) and IMO the vets want a policy so they can flip it out and not be liable if someone chooses to feed raw. I know you would all like to see vets accept this diet but the liability thing is real....vet suggests raw diet, client either does not feed it right and dog gets ill or dog is exposed to high pathogen load and does get very ill or owner gets very ill or owner's child/friend/mother/grandmother gets ill and vet gets sued for suggesting a raw diet. We live in a very litigious society unfortunately. If a vet recommends a kibble that has all the "science" behind it and approvals the vet has acted in good faith and will be backed by many things to protect them. They will not be liable but the kibble manufacturer will be, the owner of the kibble company and maybe the store that sold it, but not the vet. This is about nervousness and fear. The way to try and fix it and produce more confidence is not to attack them, that is not going to work. Things take time, especially things that were always viewed as wrong and have liable elements to them. The raw food movement ( when it started getting more used and talked about) is not that old...what like when Ian Billinghurst wrote "Give your Dog a Bone"? When did that take off? Like around 96', 97'? I know other people fed raw before that but it was a very rare thing.

There will always be problems in food production for us and our pets. Getting more acceptance of raw feeding is going to have to be a give and take process as well as things like meetings and seminars with and for veterinarians as Ian had and may continue to be doing. Talking with them about it when you are there for a visit is wrong IMO they have other clients to visit and many are very busy and simply cannot give you the time for this at that time.

This is about risk, it is not personal or even meant to put you all down. It is about risk.... the AMVA has many many policies in place that I am sure are either outdated or just obviously not up to date with current science or thinking. I do notice that anything said negatively about raw causes an uprising, all kinds of anger, resentment and calls for justice but no other group is allowed this action ( such as kibble feeders or vets for example). I can imagine this makes it much harder for the veterinary medical society to listen to the complaining and information as well simply because it is frustrating and tiring. I think everyone needs to chill, seriously.

JMO guys...I understand both sides in this and I really think sometimes you can do more harm than good with the reactions?


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## RedneckCowgirl

nupe said:


> I would think the vet would back off after you threaten to switch vets??...no?....


Nope. Not around here. They are pretty much like "Don't let the door hit you in the butt on the way out!" The local vet (mind you, there are only about 1600 people in Tenino) has two houses, each on about 40 acres. Both him and his wife drive Mercedes that they exchange for newer ones every like 2 years. I took Maddie to him for her aural hemoatoma surgery (the only place that would let me make payments, which they knew) and charged me a little over $600 to put a 75 pound dog under for 10 minutes while he lanced them and stitched her up. Its ridiculous how crappy the vets are around here. They know that if one person leaves there are plenty more who are more then willing to soak up every word and pay every fee.


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## nupe

WOW....well now when you explain your situation I see your frustation. I am in New York CIty and its plenty of vets around here. So yes I see your point on not going off or shouting your true feelings too loud.


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## Caty M

The AVMA doesn't have to recommend or not recommend a raw diet. They could just not say anything about it, which would then stop them from providing extremely biased information, falsities, and half truths, as well as mitigating any legal action against them. ;-)

It should be up to the vet and owner what to feed. I realize the AVMA has no real legal authority, BUT, what they say is taken with a lot of weight. Their official stance is "FOR" pediatric spay and neuter which is controversial, but many vets will be fine with it because the AVMA supports it.


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## Tobi

Kibblelady said:


> I realize you guys are frustrated with the kibble aspect and I addressed this in a post on the other thread but this is not simply about some salmonella. To me it is about the potential for various pathogens, the chance they are there (all samplings say high probability) and IMO the vets want a policy so they can flip it out and not be liable if someone chooses to feed raw. I know you would all like to see vets accept this diet but the liability thing is real....vet suggests raw diet, client either does not feed it right and dog gets ill or dog is exposed to high pathogen load and does get very ill or owner gets very ill or owner's child/friend/mother/grandmother gets ill and vet gets sued for suggesting a raw diet. We live in a very litigious society unfortunately. If a vet recommends a kibble that has all the "science" behind it and approvals the vet has acted in good faith and will be backed by many things to protect them. They will not be liable but the kibble manufacturer will be, the owner of the kibble company and maybe the store that sold it, but not the vet. This is about nervousness and fear. The way to try and fix it and produce more confidence is not to attack them, that is not going to work. Things take time, especially things that were always viewed as wrong and have liable elements to them. The raw food movement ( when it started getting more used and talked about) is not that old...what like when Ian Billinghurst wrote "Give your Dog a Bone"? When did that take off? Like around 96', 97'? I know other people fed raw before that but it was a very rare thing.
> 
> There will always be problems in food production for us and our pets. Getting more acceptance of raw feeding is going to have to be a give and take process as well as things like meetings and seminars with and for veterinarians as Ian had and may continue to be doing. Talking with them about it when you are there for a visit is wrong IMO they have other clients to visit and many are very busy and simply cannot give you the time for this at that time.
> 
> This is about risk, it is not personal or even meant to put you all down. It is about risk.... the AMVA has many many policies in place that I am sure are either outdated or just obviously not up to date with current science or thinking. I do notice that anything said negatively about raw causes an uprising, all kinds of anger, resentment and calls for justice but no other group is allowed this action ( such as kibble feeders or vets for example). I can imagine this makes it much harder for the veterinary medical society to listen to the complaining and information as well simply because it is frustrating and tiring. *I think everyone needs to chill, seriously*.
> 
> JMO guys...I understand both sides in this and I really think sometimes you can do more harm than good with the reactions?


*Just a discussion, nobody is heated in this thread :wink:
*

Liability is real with vets telling them to feed kibble as well. I can't seem to understand how some people cannot understand that.

For example. kibble can also contain disease-causing mold and other pathogens. Studies by Bueno (2001), Gunsen (2002), and Maia (2002) found aflatoxin, a toxic mold, in pet food samples. Aflatoxin contamination of dog kibble resulted in approximately 25 dog deaths in 1998 (Texas) and vomitoxin was found in batches of Nature's Recipe kibble in 1995 (Food and Drug Administration, 1995). At least seven dogs have died from unknown contamination of Petcurean pet food, recalled by the manufacturer in October 2003 (Syufy, 2003).



> I know other people fed raw before that but it was a very rare thing.


Dogs ancestors have been eating meat since the dawn of their species, and wild dogs continue to do so, vets act as if kibble has been around since the dawn of time, and animals have been farming for their grains for eons :lol: I wonder what dogs ate 500 years ago.


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## Malika04

Well, I have 30 lbs of turkey neck bones, 

50 lbs of beef back bones, 

40 lbs of chicken backs and some quail...and some stinky green tripe!

Plus, beef and chicken livers, and beef hearts...

Let's Party!!!


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## Kibblelady

Tobi said:


> *Just a discussion, nobody is heated in this thread :wink:
> *


Oops sorry, didn't mean you guys or this thread I meant the raw feeders aggravated with the AMVA.... sorry


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## Malika04

Oh I also have frozen sardines, and salmon fish heads...


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## Tobi

Malika04 said:


> Well, I have 30 lbs of turkey neck bones,
> 
> 50 lbs of beef back bones,
> 
> 40 lbs of chicken backs and some quail...and some stinky green tripe!
> 
> Plus, beef and chicken livers, and beef hearts...
> 
> Let's Party!!!


op2: op2:


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## Kibblelady

Tobi said:


> Liability is real with vets telling them to feed kibble as well. I can't seem to understand how some people cannot understand that.


Vets are not in the loop of liability when it comes to a contaminated kibble product. Because it is a sold product, buy another company this is very different than recommending a person feed their dog a diet the client may know little about and not knowing the client's dedication to the diet. how they feed it to handle it, where they buy the ingredients etc etc.






> Dogs ancestors have been eating meat since the dawn of their species, and wild dogs continue to do so, vets act as if kibble has been around since the dawn of time, and animals have been farming for their grains for eons :lol: I wonder what dogs ate 500 years ago.


First, don't laugh...not cool. 

In the "dawn of time" we did not have the mass production of foodstuffs we do today with the high levels of pathogens, it is not the same thing. Wild dogs kill a *wild* animal that is not raised in the condition our food is today and in production facilities. Vet's IMO do not act like kibble has been around since the dawn of time, they know they trust it and they know the condition of our foodstuffs. Yes kibble can become contaminated however is does not even come close to a fraction of what is found on our raw meat.


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## Kibblelady

Look, I like to discuss things, I think it can only lead to growth among people. If you want to taunt don't. If you do not want to read it than don't but I know I am not mocking anyone on this board and I won't, the same respect would be nice.


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## Tobi

Kibblelady said:


> Vets are not in the loop of liability when it comes to a contaminated kibble product. Because it is a sold product, buy another company this is very different than recommending a person feed their dog a diet the client may know little about and not knowing the client's dedication to the diet. how they feed it to handle it, where they buy the ingredients etc etc.


The EXACT thing can be said for kibble. The masses have no idea what is going into pet foods, the masses have no idea about he massive recalls that were going on, the masses don't know that they can contract disease from bits of kibble that they feed to their dogs. Vets warn people about raw, pathogens, infection etc etc etc... yet, how many times have you ever heard a vet tell a client that they need to handle the kibble carefully, and not let their young child play in their dogs foods etc? I for one, have never, and i've heard the "bacteria" talk much from 5-8 different vets that i fired. 

Pre-made Raw is a sold product as well, it's exactly the same as kibble, except it's raw, and likely the gateway product if you will to prey model raw.



Kibblelady said:


> First, don't laugh...not cool.
> 
> In the "dawn of time" we did not have the mass production of foodstuffs we do today with the high levels of pathogens, it is not the same thing. Wild dogs kill a *wild* animal that is not raised in the condition our food is today and in production facilities. Vet's IMO do not act like kibble has been around since the dawn of time, they know they trust it and they know the condition of our foodstuffs. Yes kibble can become contaminated however is does not even come close to a fraction of what is found on our raw meat.


:lol: so serious... I laugh a lot, i like to keep things light, if you don't wish to, simply do not respond or read my responses to yours, it's your choice.

So what you're trying to say, is that Vet's know that kibbles contain many ingredients that can be very detrimental to our pets, yet they push it anyways? I think i'm reading that correctly. I'd very much like to see a comparison between a contaminated POROUS piece of kibble, in comparison to a free range naturally rared hen. I mention the texture of kibble because it is very porous, and in those pores... that is where bacteria, and mold, and such things can live. unless a study has been done there is no basis showing that there is more of a risk from a piece of raw food than a piece of kibble.

I highly doubt most or many vets for that matter, can tell you where Science diets ingredients are sourced, or why they contain BHA/BHT. Unfortunately, IMO, It's the blind leading the blind when it comes to petfoods.

something else, i've found that is funny since raw meat is obviously so much more dangerous.



> While young children were most often affected, there's no evidence that they got sick by eating pet food, Behravesh said. They probably became infected by touching affected animals or dirty pet food dishes, and then putting their hands in their mouths, she said.


Dog Food Could Be Making Kids Sick, Reports CDC

now, in that quote, vets, and pet food manufacturers should be putting precautionary labels, and verbal warnings out about the dangers of their products that they are either selling (stores/vets) or recomending (vets).


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## Tobi

Kibblelady said:


> Look, I like to discuss things, I think it can only lead to growth among people. If you want to taunt don't. If you do not want to read it than don't but I know I am not mocking anyone on this board and I won't, the same respect would be nice.


Nobody is mocking, or taunting you. I think you might be reading too much into it. :wink:


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## Malika04

Why can't us raw feeders get a break from kibblers coming here???

****content removed by danemama****


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## Tobi

Malika04 said:


> Why can't us raw feeders get a break from kibblers coming here???


It's an open forum, they are more than welcome to come and learn, as is true the other way around. Everybody on this forum no doubt loves their pets, and wants to do the best they feel they should be doing for them, otherwise they wouldn't be here. It's good conversation, and learning, there is no reason to really segregate members based on what they feed, or don't feed.


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## Caty M

I still think they should be just taking the position of "This is something that should be discussed between you and your vet"... that way they are not disregarding the thousands of dogs that have been helped by a raw diet, and they are not recommending nor putting down any sort of diet. No one will ever be able to STOP us from feeding raw, but the Delta society has already banned raw fed therapy dogs, who's to say that won't go further bolstered by the "official stance" by the respected AVMA? There really has been no confirmed case of food poisoning from a raw diet, and there are a few immunocomprimised people on this board who feed, yet there has been illnesses with kibble. They could even say handling precautions should be taken with any type of feeding.


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## Caty M

Malika04 said:


> *Why can't us raw feeders get a break from kibblers coming here???*


This is an open forum, people are free to post in whatever section they may feel like. Open disrespect isn't tolerated against either "side". I personally LIKE posting in the kibble side, keeps me up to date with recalls, formula changes and brands to recommend to people that may not want to feed raw. People shouldn't be made to feel bad about posting in one section or another.


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## Liz

I just received a link to this article by Dr. Becker of the Mercola group. Raw Feeding for Cats and Dogs
It is a good article that addresses some of the issues being discussed. I don't agree with everything Dr. Becker advocate but I do like a lot of what she believes and appreciate her educating others.


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## Kibblelady

Tobi said:


> The EXACT thing can be said for kibble. The masses have no idea what is going into pet foods, the masses have no idea about he massive recalls that were going on, ....


 No, pet food companies have information on exact ingredients...vit and min premixes etc etc...it is not the same thing. Name one vet that has been sued because they recommended a pet food product that harmed a pet. 



> Pre-made Raw is a sold product as well, it's exactly the same as kibble, except it's raw, and likely the gateway product if you will to prey model raw.


Yup, and as a sold, registered product from an incorporated company it is also not something a vet would be sued for for recommending. However, how many products like this actually exist in comparison? There are many products a vet does not recommend, being raw makes it no different, if a vet doesn't like raw they do not recommend it. If that is their personal preference it just is. I am sure you do not like kibble, fine you don't like kibble... why is a vet not also allowed their personal opinion? (stating this because whole thing is wrapped up in what is recommended and what isn't)





> :lol: so serious... I laugh a lot, i like to keep things light, if you don't wish to, simply do not respond or read my responses to yours, it's your choice.


I am not "so serious" .... please lol But I do know when I am being mocked or someone is acting as if I did not realize something. Laughing at a humorous thing is different and you know it. 



> So what you're trying to say, is that Vet's know that kibbles contain many ingredients that can be very detrimental to our pets, yet they push it anyways?


No, they simply disagree with your assessment just as you disagree with theirs.



> I think i'm reading that correctly. I'd very much like to see a comparison between a contaminated POROUS piece of kibble, in comparison to a free range naturally rared hen.


Umm most raw feeders are not feeding free range naturally reared hens....



> I mention the texture of kibble because it is very porous, and in those pores... that is where bacteria, and mold, and such things can live. unless a study has been done there is no basis showing that there is more of a risk from a piece of raw food than a piece of kibble.


 If you seriously want this information I will get it for you, but only if I am not wasting my time.





> I highly doubt most or many vets for that matter, can tell you where Science diets ingredients are sourced, or why they contain BHA/BHT. Unfortunately, IMO, It's the blind leading the blind when it comes to petfoods.


 I doubt you have ever asked a vet that question, I know I haven't. They trust the company, that's on them of course but they do, they have no reason to question that. "Most" of them spend their time learning how to help their sick patients, they do not spend hours as many of us do studying pet products. As far as script diets they are not as concerned IMO of the potential risk of a preservative as they are about the condition being treated. Chemoprevention of cancer: phenolic antioxidan... [Int J Biochem. 1988] - PubMed - NCBI hmm both of these things are used in some cancer treatments, like ovarian cancer. They can both promote some tumors and combat others.... BHT is very helpful in the treatment of herpes BHT: an effective treatment for genital and oral herpes it also has effect on many viruses BHT and Herpes, HIV, Hepatitis B, Hepatitis C, SARS, West Nile Virus, Influenze Here is an interesting article, nothing scientific but interesting thoughts as he brings up very valid points Preservatives Cause Cancer?? Probably not... - Thomas Dock, CVJ, Vet. Technician's Blog - MedHelp I like the quote in one of his comments "I think the answers lie somewhere in the levels of these compounds needed to provide the antioxidant effects. As some ancient person (Aristotle?) once said, the difference between a medicine and poison is the dose." So, this is what vets are reading and looking at...not something like Susan Thixton's website.... you say potato, I say tomato.









> Dog Food Could Be Making Kids Sick, Reports CDC





> now, in that quote, vets, and pet food manufacturers should be putting precautionary labels, and verbal warnings out about the dangers of their products that they are either selling (stores/vets) or recomending (vets).


What does this mean? Or better what are you getting at? In the article it states the government has issued a report and warning.... are you thinking this risk does not exist in raw meat? This quote was interesting "While young children were most often affected, there's no evidence that they got sick by eating pet food, Behravesh said. They probably became infected by touching affected animals or dirty pet food dishes, and then putting their hands in their mouths, she said."


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## Kibblelady

Malika04 said:


> Why can't us raw feeders get a break from kibblers coming here???



I am not here promoting kibble...I am here discussing the AMVA's vote on the new policy they are considering. I am not some "kibble feeder" I am just a board member who is really interested in canine nutrition, in all forms. I have nothing against raw either, I am just commenting on the way I see this situation. I ended up on "your" area because I hit the today's posts button and saw the topic and it interested me. How do I put this...just because I do not see things the same way you all might does not mean I am "against" raw feeding, nor does it mean I am "pro" kibble. Okay? I am pro nutrition period.

I hope we can continue discussing the AMVA issue and not slide into a kibbler thing as I would really hate for the discussion, which I think is useful, to be cut off.

I have a whole free range, naturally reared, organic chicken :smile: it was priced really nicely and we are going to eat it tonight :biggrin1:


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## Tobi

Kibblelady said:


> No, pet food companies have information on exact ingredients...vit and min premixes etc etc...it is not the same thing. Name one vet that has been sued because they recommended a pet food product that harmed a pet.
> Yup, and as a sold, registered product from an incorporated company it is also not something a vet would be sued for for recommending. However, how many products like this actually exist in comparison? There are many products a vet does not recommend, being raw makes it no different, if a vet doesn't like raw they do not recommend it. If that is their personal preference it just is. I am sure you do not like kibble, fine you don't like kibble... why is a vet not also allowed their personal opinion? (stating this because whole thing is wrapped up in what is recommended and what isn't)


Assumptions.
I'm just fine with kibbles, in fact, i recommend kibbles to people all the time, high quality, grain free well sourced ones :thumb:
Vets are absolutely allowed their personal opinion, Their opinion is also very biased by kickbacks as well though.
isn't it the veterinarians obligation to know about the ingredients in their patients foods that they are recommending?



> I am not "so serious" .... please lol But I do know when I am being mocked or someone is acting as if I did not realize something. Laughing at a humorous thing is different and you know it.


Nobody mocked you.



> No, they simply disagree with your assessment just as you disagree with theirs.


everybody is entitled to their beliefs it's the way it is.



> Umm most raw feeders are not feeding free range naturally reared hens....


Did you do a survey?


> If you seriously want this information I will get it for you, but only if I am not wasting my time.


Sure if you have it.



> I doubt you have ever asked a vet that question, I know I haven't. They trust the company, that's on them of course but they do, they have no reason to question that. "Most" of them spend their time learning how to help their sick patients, they do not spend hours as many of us do studying pet products. As far as script diets they are not as concerned IMO of the potential risk of a preservative as they are about the condition being treated. Chemoprevention of cancer: phenolic antioxidan... [Int J Biochem. 1988] - PubMed - NCBI hmm both of these things are used in some cancer treatments, like ovarian cancer. They can both promote some tumors and combat others.... BHT is very helpful in the treatment of herpes BHT: an effective treatment for genital and oral herpes it also has effect on many viruses BHT and Herpes, HIV, Hepatitis B, Hepatitis C, SARS, West Nile Virus, Influenze Here is an interesting article, nothing scientific but interesting thoughts as he brings up very valid points Preservatives Cause Cancer?? Probably not... - Thomas Dock, CVJ, Vet. Technician's Blog - MedHelp I like the quote in one of his comments "I think the answers lie somewhere in the levels of these compounds needed to provide the antioxidant effects. As some ancient person (Aristotle?) once said, the difference between a medicine and poison is the dose." So, this is what vets are reading and looking at...not something like Susan Thixton's website.... you say potato, I say tomato.


For everything good you find about these chemicals, you can also find the polar opposite.
What Is BHT (BUTYLATED HYDROXYTOLUENE) And Why You Should Avoid It.






> What does this mean? Or better what are you getting at? In the article it states the government has issued a report and warning.... are you thinking this risk does not exist in raw meat? This quote was interesting "While young children were most often affected, there's no evidence that they got sick by eating pet food, Behravesh said. They probably became infected by touching affected animals or dirty pet food dishes, and then putting their hands in their mouths, she said."



Obviously i don't think there is no risk involved with raw meat, but it's demonized more so because it's NOT A CASH COW.
it just shows the obvious dangers that aren't relayed by the avma about kibble.


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## Kibblelady

Caty M said:


> I still think they should be just taking the position of "This is something that should be discussed between you and your vet"... that way they are not disregarding the thousands of dogs that have been helped by a raw diet, and they are not recommending nor putting down any sort of diet. No one will ever be able to STOP us from feeding raw, but the Delta society has already banned raw fed therapy dogs, who's to say that won't go further bolstered by the "official stance" by the respected AVMA? There really has been no confirmed case of food poisoning from a raw diet, and there are a few immunocomprimised people on this board who feed, yet there has been illnesses with kibble. They could even say handling precautions should be taken with any type of feeding.


Caty ( I really like the points you put in many posts, thank you) I was reading this article and I know anyone can write anything they want (which is scarey when you realize it) but it is well thought out, shows many examples and concerns. Please read it before you continue Cautions on Raw Foods (Raw Meat) and Epileptic Dogs


Now, I know it has some of the common statements that inflame the raw community but it does have valid concerns as well. If a vet was interested and came upon this article they would be quite alarmed I would think. This article came up immediately when I searched "poisoned by raw diet for pets." The chances of an uninformed vet looking for information on this seeing this link is highly probably. Knowing the way they are trained in the scientific method etc the chance of them accepting all of this is high. They may not even read anything else, may print this out for reference.... as could many pet owners. I know you all are shaking your heads but most of the info in this article is true and factual as well as being backed up by peer reviewed studies. It is quite persuasive. Can you also see the Delta Society looking at this article? 

I do not think the sample size on this board in reference to realizing if there are infections taking place is large enough. JMO I agree that handling precautions with any foodstuff these days is a very good idea, many people do not know this and do not know the state of our food chain though  This again brings up...would a client that a vet recommends raw to realize this? Look into it or look it up? Or just go to the food store, by some meat and throw it to their dog? We here are much different than the average pet owner.... I could see an average pet owner doing what I just said unfortunately  No offense to anyone.... ''


I think a good question is how can we all sort of fix this issue so that maybe vets feel more comfortable, and do not feel like they are putting their livelihood on the line in a recommendation of something they are very nervous about? What are some solutions to what I feel is a gap here that needs to be bridged?


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## Kibblelady

Tobi, I have already gone over all of those points on other threads and one for this exact topic save the "poll" on raw feeders as to what their sources are, can you provide me with information on that to inform me differently? Based on all the conversations, lists, forums and books I have read I am accurate.

op2:


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## Tobi

You offered up sources, and information, i responded that i was interested, and now you say to go back through your old posts, and it's been gone over... 



> Based on all the conversations, lists, forums and books I have read I am accurate.


What are you accurate about? :boink:

Regardless, i'll just go the short route... "you're right"


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## BrownieM

Tobi said:


> You offered up sources, and information, i responded that i was interested, and now you say to go back through your old posts, and it's been gone over...
> 
> 
> 
> What are you accurate about? :boink:
> 
> Regardless, i'll just go the short route... "you're right"


You just made my day.


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## Liz

Kibblelady,

I think some raw feeders may get annoyed with your posts on this subject because it is easier not to get up in arms when something like this does not directly affect you. As previously stated many people trust absolutely anything their vet states as truth and correct and having groups like the Delta Society prejudiced against raw feeding makes how we care for our animals more difficult. 

Personally I don't give a flying fig what they state or recommend I will continue to rear my dogs as naturally as humanly possible and my pups will go to natural raising homes.  I have never been one to just do as told but many people do depend on their vet for absolute knowledge and whether this is right or wrong is a moot point, they just do, it is easier for them. 

I just wonder if people who fed kibble would be so blase' if the AVMA put out a list of kibble they approved of and kibble that was "dangerous". I think they would be very upset to hear the food they believed did great for their dogs was being maligned and their care for their dogs was touted as dangerous. Just a though that has crossed my mind.


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## Kibblelady

Tobi said:


> You offered up sources, and information, i responded that i was interested, and now you say to go back through your old posts, and it's been gone over...
> 
> 
> 
> What are you accurate about? :boink:
> 
> Regardless, i'll just go the short route... "you're right"


I'm not looking to be right, I am challenging what you said. I back up most of what I am saying and challenging what I say is fine, I accept that. Why this message? You are not the only person reading these posts of course.

** also I admit I do not honestly think you are interested in that information so I am not going to spend a few hours constructing a post addressing the issue. My time to me is valuable and if I felt you were sincere I would do it but, unfortunately, I do not think you are sincere so I am not going to do it. ..just sayin' Also the things I said look back at other posts for were different from that one. Why should I keep writing the same things over and over when it is just as simple to go read my other comments?


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## Kibblelady

Liz said:


> Kibblelady,
> 
> I think some raw feeders may get annoyed with your posts on this subject because it is easier not to get up in arms when something like this does not directly affect you. As previously stated many people trust absolutely anything their vet states as truth and correct and having groups like the Delta Society prejudiced against raw feeding makes how we care for our animals more difficult.
> 
> Personally I don't give a flying fig what they state or recommend I will continue to rear my dogs as naturally as humanly possible and my pups will go to natural raising homes.  I have never been one to just do as told but many people do depend on their vet for absolute knowledge and whether this is right or wrong is a moot point, they just do, it is easier for them.
> 
> I just wonder if people who fed kibble would be so blase' if the AVMA put out a list of kibble they approved of and kibble that was "dangerous". I think they would be very upset to hear the food they believed did great for their dogs was being maligned and their care for their dogs was touted as dangerous. Just a though that has crossed my mind.



I understand your position Liz totally. I understand why you are all upset. I guess I am just trying to be a voice for the vets that are often maligned. Oh, do not think this "thing" does not affect me as well. My dogs do get raw meat often and I support raw and hate seeing everyone all upset. I do think the vets reactions are more so based on fear and ignorance (ignorance does not mean stupid but misinformed) as well as liability fears..I honestly do. I do not agree with the whole Purina angle in thinking they are behind this, just based on the fact of who is all on the board of the Delta Society besides the pet food connected people.. Yes the Delta society was behind sort of provoking this but only because they asked what the AMVAs official stance was when they were looking into it themselves, it caused the AMVA to also look into it and decide to have an official policy.

My posts can be aggravating to people, I tend to challenge many things because I have been researching these things for many years and have watched as many myths, misinformation and propaganda has been "born." If you think about it it is always something isn't it? If not a brand problems, and ingredient problem, a transport problem an anything problem. There are people out there looking for these things that honestly have no training in what they are doing  They do very little research and come to a premature conclusion which they then tell many people about. This spreads like a virus and before long the idea is fully accepted as a fact. I have seen these things and decided to actually look into them fully and too many times I have seen a very different set of facts and have come to totally opposite conclusions. When I challenge these things I am not presented with anything that remotely proves what is being stated, and I am pushed away as if I am crazy...I am used to it but I continue because I try to combat these false facts. Sometimes I make headway and my conclusion spreads.... I just want to be heard like anyone else. I do try like crazy to be candid, umm "easy", gentle etc as when challenging a belief someone has carried for a long time they can get quite resistive and unwilling to consider and alternative. I understand this feeling, I have been there....


Hey if the AMVA wants to come up with a list of kibbles they do not care for, fine..have at it. I have seen the very food I feed (and sell) be maligned in many ways. I think the only place it ever really bothered me was on rateitall.com I know why I feed it and know why I support it and just like you all I just keep using it and sighing knowing what is said is not accurate at all. Actually people do say everyday that kibble is dangerous and kibble feeders are maligned all the time for what they feed, it exists on both "sides." The goal should be results right? Too many people have their self esteem tied up in how they care for their dog and will pursue what is viewed as "the best" in an attempt to be "perfect." I find this sad as the ultimate victim at times is their pet... I was one of these people manipulated like this by others... when I realized it I was angry as all heck and took a new approach to information coming at me on everything not just dog food.


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## kathylcsw

Kibblelady I don't think that any of the raw feeders on this board started feeding raw without doing the research. While the sample size may be small it is still a well educated sample! I know that I have done research and made this feeding choice based on that. 

To this point there are more documented cases of salmonella poisoning in both humans and animals from kibble than raw meat. While the articles you linked to discussed how it is possible for bacterial contamination from feeding a raw diet I don't recall seeing any examples of where it actually did cause problems. We know that kibble HAS caused illness and death in dogs and people - Diamond salmonella recall this year and aflatoxin in 2007. Seems to me that no matter what you feed you run the same risk.


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## magicre

i am not going to tell my vet that i feed raw. (edited to say that i AM going to tell my vet that i feed raw) oops.

for one simple reason.

when my vet performs his physical and takes a history, it's important for him to know what my dogs eat....after all, we are what we eat.

if i went to a human doctor and said i eat twinkies, he'd surely have something to say.

i expect no less from my vets....whilst they may not approve and they have warned me from the start that my dogs and i will die, and i am not exagerrating....would that i were...

without knowing a complete picture, how can they thoughtfully diagnose? 

when the delta society did this very same thing, there was a tremendous impact.

the reason given was the same being adopted by the avma.

does it impact me? no.

but any strides made between my vet and i...and in the last three years there have been strides made as each wellness exam brings them closer to reluctant admiration if not down right approval.....those strides are now gone.

and the public? well, i never really cared what the public thought...

what i do care about are those who might have started feeding the pre mades and now won't.

pre mades are a great compromise between raw and kibble....it allows the dog to eat species appropriate and allows the owner to raise children and work and do the millions of things they have to do before they go to sleep at night.

is it a barf style feeding? sure, but so what? those who would have, might have stopped feeding kibble now won't.

everyone here knows my views on processed foods, for both humans and animals...so i won't go into that....

there will be an impact..not for me. but there will be one.

kibble lady, i don't see why anyone would be upset with what you write.

you might dabble in raw, but generally your dogs eat kibble.....

until you have stood in my shoes for three years, heard what i've heard from the mouths of others, heard my vets stand around and yell at me, watched my vets shake their heads in despair, have people move their animals away from mine because i don't lie ...then i'm sorry, but you have no frame of reference.....and i don't say that in an insulting or offensive way, so please don't be offended.

i realise now that people who feed kibble do not and will not understand. 

i have fed kibble. i do feed raw. i have stood in both worlds.

when you have for a period of time, i suspect your views might be altered.


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## Kibblelady

kathylcsw said:


> Kibblelady I don't think that any of the raw feeders on this board started feeding raw without doing the research. While the sample size may be small it is still a well educated sample! I know that I have done research and made this feeding choice based on that.
> 
> To this point there are more documented cases of salmonella poisoning in both humans and animals from kibble than raw meat. While the articles you linked to discussed how it is possible for bacterial contamination from feeding a raw diet I don't recall seeing any examples of where it actually did cause problems. We know that kibble HAS caused illness and death in dogs and people - Diamond salmonella recall this year and aflatoxin in 2007. Seems to me that no matter what you feed you run the same risk.


You seriously think there have been more salmonella infections in humans caused by kibble than raw or undercooked meats?


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## Herzo

While I understand you wanting to stick up for the vets so to speak I still don't understand why the vote? Why not let the vets make up there own mind rather than have the AMVA tell them what to think? Like I have had the vet that treated Turtles ears, even though she was a little freaked out that I fed her raw she did state to me that she didn't know much about it. I see nothing wrong with that I would much rather them say that then say you must feed kibble because one thing I do know is I have done much more studying nutrition than most vets. And I'm not trying to say that I have done more than you I just know most vets and people for that matter don't do that much.

Now your new here so I'll tell you I feed it all, PMR to two of my dogs and the other two get raw, kibble, home cooked, so I guess I'm like you.

And I read your article and it say's "may be "genetically challenged" and "may already be compromised" so this article is not telling you facts just that it... may be. And yes there is bacteria on raw meat but kibble has it as well, so I guess I don't see the difference only in that raw digests faster so it would be out of the system sooner.

I can see if a vet read that it might scare them but may be is not a fact. But the more I read on this the more it seems to me that you need to follow the money and it looks like it is ending up in the dog food company's pockets. How can anyone not think if the Purina co. is giving them money and they are on the board that they are not trying to cut out the company's that are selling premade raw. I don't like this war on small business and this is what it looks like to me.

If kibble was 100% pure and had no bacteria on it then so be it but how can they say anything about raw when kibble is being recalled all the time. How can they say feed it. Just because the people can not sue them but can the dog food company, are you sure they can't?


And I was writing this while the last 3 posts were posted, not that it really matters just sayin.


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## Kibblelady

magicre said:


> i am not going to tell my vet that i feed raw. (edited to say that i AM going to tell my vet that i feed raw) oops.
> 
> for one simple reason.
> 
> when my vet performs his physical and takes a history, it's important for him to know what my dogs eat....after all, we are what we eat.
> 
> if i went to a human doctor and said i eat twinkies, he'd surely have something to say.
> 
> i expect no less from my vets....whilst they may not approve and they have warned me from the start that my dogs and i will die, and i am not exagerrating....would that i were...
> 
> without knowing a complete picture, how can they thoughtfully diagnose?


Very true...and you have the right to do what you want and saying your dogs are going to die is really silly.




> any strides made between my vet and i...and in the last three years there have been strides made as each wellness exam brings them closer to reluctant admiration if not down right approval.....those strides are now gone.


This is sad if it happens. I would say the majority of vets have quite a bit of knowledge in their heads...I don't think they just blindly accept something because the AVMA states it you know? There are tons of policies and positions the various veterinary schools have and I am sure they have students and graduates that reject what the school feels based on information they have gathers, make sense? I know this will impact many vets I am sure....some immature vets will see it as an opportunity to say "seee??!!" and that is also silly and insulting. In the end it does not change what *you* feel and imo that is the most important view. 




> what i do care about are those who might have started feeding the pre mades and now won't.


I do not think many of them will even hear about this policy to be honest. My position is many vets do not even ask what you are feeding your dog if they do not think there is a problem with the diet. If they don't ask, they do not know the dog's diet and will not throw this policy at them. KWIM?




> pre mades are a great compromise between raw and kibble....it allows the dog to eat species appropriate and allows the owner to raise children and work and do the millions of things they have to do before they go to sleep at night.


I agree totally, I have used some of these over the years.




> you might dabble in raw, but generally your dogs eat kibble.....
> 
> until you have stood in my shoes for three years, heard what i've heard from the mouths of others, heard my vets stand around and yell at me, watched my vets shake their heads in despair, have people move their animals away from mine because i don't lie ...then i'm sorry, but you have no frame of reference.....and i don't say that in an insulting or offensive way, so please don't be offended.


I'm not offended at all. While I understand what you are saying specifically do not dismiss the fact that I have dealt with similar consequences and behavior in other areas and in my life. It is very frustrating and upsetting to be treated like you are crazy, stupid or "weird" for something you believe in so strongly. Something you believe is very good and others do not seem to see it or want to hear about it...and well that old myth and rumor thing is rampant in many things surrounding human beings and I, in particular, am very sensitive to it. Please do not think I do not understand, I do.

My views on what I feed my dogs are based on many issues as are yours. A few are.. having an immune compromised person in the home being one very important one..another having an elderly person in the home... and I do not have the freezer space as I have 3 cats and 5 dogs lol as well as I *know* I do not have the dedication for it, being honest. I am not the right person for this diet, make sense? It's not that I am avoiding the diet with my dogs. I do give them things that are raw and with a hope and a prayer it will not harm my Mom, I am taking a risk with that  Sometimes I wonder if I have the right to do that? I am I do not care for the premade ones, I tried one once and had a few problems with it nutrient wise. What I am feeding now is working for my dogs and I and that's the point right? Just as I would assume it is for you?


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## Tobi

Kibblelady said:


> You seriously think there have been more salmonella infections in humans caused by kibble than raw or undercooked meats?


No, there hasn't been, the top salmonella outbreak has been from Sushi grade Tuna, and from "live" chicks, and baby turtles.... in fact, they are nearly equal... the next runner up in 2012, is.... wait for it.... 
Kibble, with 49 cases of human transmission this year so far.

Yet, i see nothing on the CDC website indicating that people feeding their pets is responsible for any of these outbreaks, i'm floored... if raw feeding to our pets was so dangerous, and cause for so much concern from the AVMA in 2012, wouldn't there be some indication of that?

CDC - Outbreaks Involving Salmonella


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## Scarlett_O'

Tobi said:


> No, there hasn't been, the top salmonella outbreak has been from Sushi grade Tuna, and from "live" chicks, and baby turtles.... in fact, they are nearly equal... *the next runner up in 2012, is.... wait for it.... *
> Kibble, with 49 cases of human transmission this year so far.


I can NOT help it!!!! :rofl:


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## Tobi

Scarlett_O' said:


> I can NOT help it!!!! :rofl:


:drum: lmao


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## DaneMama

Kibblelady said:


> You seriously think there have been more salmonella infections in humans caused by kibble than raw or undercooked meats?


When it comes to handling raw meats specifically for raw feeding yes. Most people on the planet handle raw meat for their own consumption, which isn't what we are talking about. It's the handling of raw meat to feed the dogs. In which case yes...more cases of salmonella caused by kibble than raw fed dogs. 

Is that because MOST people feed kibble? Probably. I'm sure as the numbers of raw fed dog households go up so will the cases of salmonella will as well. 

But....I don't think we should blame the meat. Blame the people who use poor sanitary hygiene when handling this stuff.


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## Kibblelady

Herzo said:


> While I understand you wanting to stick up for the vets so to speak I still don't understand why the vote? Why not let the vets make up there own mind rather than have the AMVA tell them what to think?


The AMVA does not exactly tell the vets what to think. They institute policies so that individuals know their official position on a topic. They have an extensive page of their policies, this is from the section on Principles of Veterinary Ethics and probably is very related to what is going on. The bold is from me to highlight what I am referring to:


"THERAPIES 

Attending veterinarians are responsible for choosing the treatment regimens for their patients. It is the attending veterinarians responsibility to inform the client of the expected results and costs, and the related risks of each treatment regimen.
It is unethical for veterinarians to prescribe or dispense prescription products in the absence of a VCPR.
*It is unethical for veterinarians to promote, sell, prescribe, dispense, or use secret remedies or any other product for which they do not know the ingredient formula.*
It is unethical for veterinarians to use or permit the use of their names, signatures, or professional status in connection with the resale of ethical products in a manner which violates those directions or conditions specified by the manufacturer to ensure the safe and efficacious use of the product."

I don't think that could be any clearer? It was the point I was making earlier right? About not knowing what was included or how it was handled etc? They know the ingredient formula of kibbles, it is readily available on the package or online. They now can know the ingredient formula of premade raw products, they just need to be comfortable with them. The policy the AVMA is voting on *discourages* the feeding of raw meats due to their information, experience and research and lists *recommendations* vets should provide to clients. They are not stating that a vet is "unethical" for recommending this therefore it is the vet's choice to either engage in recommending a raw meat diet or not to. In fact it also included the recommendation for pet owners to wash their hands when feeding pets, handling their dishes, treats etc. They also recognize a homecooked diet as being "safe." So this is not an across the board promotion of "kibble."





> Now your new here so I'll tell you I feed it all, PMR to two of my dogs and the other two get raw, kibble, home cooked, so I guess I'm like you.


Sounds like it lol



> And I read your article and it say's "may be "genetically challenged" and "may already be compromised" so this article is not telling you facts just that it... may be. And yes there is bacteria on raw meat but kibble has it as well, so I guess I don't see the difference only in that raw digests faster so it would be out of the system sooner.


Personally, I think it is a matter of risk here. As I have said before it is not as common for a kibble to be contaminated. Here, I'll throw you all a "bone" lol Do people realize how "raw" many kibble products actually can be? There are many that are flash cooked at a very high temperature for a VEY short amount of time and really are not all that "cooked." They may be low in moisture but the contents are not umm broken down actually. It is usually heated to a temperature to kill pathogens... where were these salmonella bags from again?  I wonder if that has been explored? Other plants absolutely cook their product, slow and long. This provides better digestibility. One old fashioned way to tell the difference? It's one of those old dog people things...the color of the kibble. Kibble that has been cooked long, on a lower temp is darker, sometimes burnt looking. (Think of the color of most all of these grain free foods) Meat "burns" at high temps and darkens.... think of those light colored foods you may see.....hmm. Anecdotal yes, but usually a good indicator lol All the kibbles I have fed in the last 15 years have been dark in color, I do not feed light colored kibble and no, adding a coloring agent does not make a dark kibble light colored and ones that were light colored and made dark have a different look to them. Anyway... how "raw" are they? Just something to throw at you guys.

Also, this whole contamination this is not just about the pet eating the food. It is about them shedding it, eating on your floor... getting the "germs" on them and them staying there for a bit (I believe this is the Delta people's main fear) they shed these things in their stool. High viral load, more shedding. It is about what this type of feeding can do in the animal's environment as well as to the person preparing it. We know the dogs can handle it very well, people not so well. Sick and old or babies, really poorly. What is the solution? I have no idea, I am thinking on it though, hard as who knows there may be a product in the making here.



> I can see if a vet read that it might scare them but may be is not a fact. But the more I read on this the more it seems to me that you need to follow the money and it looks like it is ending up in the dog food company's pockets. How can anyone not think if the Purina co. is giving them money and they are on the board that they are not trying to cut out the company's that are selling premade raw. I don't like this war on small business and this is what it looks like to me.


I am sure all these new foods on the market are affecting other product's profit margins...but I however do not think it is that bad, bad enough to be doing things like this. To me honestly it sounds like craziness when people bring it up. The difficulty of this and the secrecy that would be involved are HUGE and I think many people realize getting just 3 people to keep their mouth shut about something is very very difficult. Imagine the amount of people that would need to be utilized here. Are all of them corrupt? Not one person has the morals to go public with this and break it wide open? I just don't think so, I do not buy it, sorry 



> If kibble was 100% pure and had no bacteria on it then so be it but how can they say anything about raw when kibble is being recalled all the time. How can they say feed it. Just because the people can not sue them but can the dog food company, are you sure they can't?


Okay, lets explore this for the sake of discussion. What would be the grounds for suing your vet if he for instance a few years ago recommended Diamond dog foods to you? What if you told him you fed it and he said "that's great!"? What would be the grounds of a civil suit against your vet for melimine poisoning?

Thank you for the great post Herzo, seriously.


And I was writing this while the last 3 posts were posted, not that it really matters just sayin.[/QUOTE]


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## Kibblelady

Tobi said:


> .
> 
> Yet, i see nothing on the CDC website indicating that people feeding their pets is responsible for any of these outbreaks, i'm floored... if raw feeding to our pets was so dangerous, and cause for so much concern from the AVMA in 2012, wouldn't there be some indication of that?
> 
> CDC - Outbreaks Involving Salmonella



I do not believe that is what was said "people preparing their pet's food" the comment was "To this point there are more documented cases of salmonella poisoning in both humans and animals from kibble than raw meat." The poster may have meant to refer that to feeding pets but that is not what they did and I took it at face value.


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## SaharaNight Boxers

@Kibblelady

You already caused the other thread about this to close so could you leave this one alone? It's for us to discuss how we, as raw feeders, feel about it and how it could impact us and what we're going to do about it. Not sbout debating about raw. If you don't agree just don't post, it just causes trouble.


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## Kibblelady

DaneMama said:


> When it comes to handling raw meats specifically for raw feeding yes. Most people on the planet handle raw meat for their own consumption, which isn't what we are talking about. It's the handling of raw meat to feed the dogs. In which case yes...more cases of salmonella caused by kibble than raw fed dogs.
> 
> Is that because MOST people feed kibble? Probably. I'm sure as the numbers of raw fed dog households go up so will the cases of salmonella will as well.
> 
> But....I don't think we should blame the meat. Blame the people who use poor sanitary hygiene when handling this stuff.


Totally agree with you Natalie. I guess it's difficult to blame though if they may not be aware of the danger? I know too many people who do not even handle their own raw meats properly let alone if they were going to feed it to their dog, know what I mean? Is this what the vets are worried about maybe? That element of the unknown?


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## Kibblelady

SaharaNight Boxers said:


> @Kibblelady
> 
> You already caused the other thread about this to close so could you leave this one alone? It's for us to discuss how we, as raw feeders, feel about it and how it could impact us and what we're going to do about it. Not sbout debating about raw. If you don't agree just don't post, it just causes trouble.



I did not cause anything to close and honestly had no idea why that one was. I feed raw, not exclusively, so does that mean I cannot comment? I am not debating raw, I keep saying this. I am discussing the proposed policy and why it may be coming up and why they are possibly doing this. I haven't been aware of me causing any trouble..... sigh Many other people seem to be very involved in this conversation, am I wrong? I am sorry if you see my pointing out potential issues with feeding raw is debating it. I support raw and raw feeders, why would I debate it?

I hope the thread is not closed, that would be a shame


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## SaharaNight Boxers

Kibblelady said:


> I did not cause anything to close and honestly had no idea why that one was. I feed raw, not exclusively, so does that mean I cannot comment? I am not debating raw, I keep saying this. I am discussing the proposed policy and why it may be coming up and why they are possibly doing this. I haven't been aware of me causing any trouble..... sigh Many other people seem to be very involved in this conversation, am I wrong? I am sorry if you see my pointing out potential issues with feeding raw is debating it. I support raw and raw feeders, why would I debate it?
> 
> I hope the thread is not closed, that would be a shame


Well whenever you are debating salmonella and subtly supporting their decision (to me) against raw it seems like you are siding against raw.


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## Herzo

I for one see nothing wrong with her posting here, she has been nothing but nice in my eyes.

Your welcome Kibblelady I try.

Well maybe I'm paranoid but it looks fishy to me. I think these sorts of things happen every day in the corporate world. And yes I know we have to have it but doesn't mean we have to let them always have there way. And I guess I'm sorry but I'm not buyin it 

As fare as the vet being sued I was thinking more on the lines like when Turtle had bad ears and she really really wanted me to feed her Science Diet. You can't tell me in the long run they can get all that they need from the allergy food, I'm sure you have looked at the ingredients in it. How can a dog have good health on that sort of stuff. Now I also know it would be hard to prove that but I would think it would be hard to prove the same thing about raw.. And I know there are allot of people that do it wrong which would be the same to me as feeding the Science Diet, the nutrients would be off but sometimes it takes awhile to show up.

It just seems to me that it wouldn't be that easy to sue the vet over raw either, unless your dog did choke on a bone but that happens with cooked and also sticks. I still question the need to have this vote I think it's BS.

If the dog food companys had no interest as in didn't donate money and didn't have people on the board I would trust it more but when they have people setting in there......... well I say again follow the money. I know I'm paranoid but I don't trust them.


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## Kibblelady

RedneckCowgirl said:


> It does when its already hard enough to find a vet (at least around here) who either won't ask what you feed or doesn't give you loads of s*** every 5 minutes because you don't feed kibble. It does when my dogs can't be therapy dogs because they are raw fed. It does when I am wary of telling people what I feed because vets give it such a bad rap.


I understand Cowboy, I do. I just honestly have never met a vet in 30yrs that has asked what I feed my dogs, ever. I am of course wondering why all you guys have been asked this? Did you offer it? I am seriously stumped here. Are they noticing something about your dogs that causes them to ask? Are they there for a sick visit? (just asking questions, no accusations or raw bashing)


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## Kibblelady

SaharaNight Boxers said:


> Well whenever you are debating salmonella and subtly supporting their decision (to me) against raw it seems like you are siding against raw.



No, I have posted I feel it is being made due to balance of risk, fear and lack of understand and or knowledge. I don't know if I support them voting on this but I am saying I understand why and it is *not* because Purina is willing them to.


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## OnyxDog

Kibblelady said:


> I understand Cowboy, I do. I just honestly have never met a vet in 30yrs that has asked what I feed my dogs, ever. I am of course wondering why all you guys have been asked this? Did you offer it? I am seriously stumped here. Are they noticing something about your dogs that causes them to ask? Are they there for a sick visit? (just asking questions, no accusations or raw bashing)


My vet asks this of everybody when they have their first check-up. It goes in every pet's file so they can reference it if they need to. They are pro-raw, by the way.


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## shellbell

Kibblelady said:


> I understand Cowboy, I do. I just honestly have never met a vet in 30yrs that has asked what I feed my dogs, ever. I am of course wondering why all you guys have been asked this? Did you offer it? I am seriously stumped here. Are they noticing something about your dogs that causes them to ask? Are they there for a sick visit? (just asking questions, no accusations or raw bashing)


My vet always ask what I feed my dogs, every time I go in no matter what I am going in for. He actually only stopped asking me after I told him they are on raw. I guess now there is a note in their chart, and I noticed the last couple times I have been there I have not been asked. Every single other time before that I have been asked, and a note has been made in the chart. Granted, I like my vet and he has never said anything negative about raw. He just admits to not knowing a lot about it and says the idea of feeding bones makes him nervous. 

I also see a holistic vet for more serious things (like Tux's atopy and yeast issues) and she is 100% in favor of raw as the preferred method of feeding, tells me I am feeding the gold standard


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## Tobi

Kibblelady said:


> Totally agree with you Natalie. I guess it's difficult to blame though if they may not be aware of the danger? I know too many people who do not even handle their own raw meats properly let alone if they were going to feed it to their dog, know what I mean? Is this what the vets are worried about maybe? That element of the unknown?


People are just too freakishly scared of every single little microbe anymore... i haven't used handsoap in the last 4 months, i handle raw meat day in and day out... still not sick.




Kibblelady said:


> I understand Cowboy, I do. I just honestly have never met a vet in 30yrs that has asked what I feed my dogs, ever. I am of course wondering why all you guys have been asked this? Did you offer it? I am seriously stumped here. Are they noticing something about your dogs that causes them to ask? Are they there for a sick visit? (just asking questions, no accusations or raw bashing)


Unfortunately because most medical professionals anymore do not go by the most basic quote any longer...

“Let food be thy medicine and medicine be thy food”

It's the first thing my vet asked when we went in for the initial "meet and greet" and I've only been at it for 10 years, and I've discussed nutrition with vets since I've owned dogs.


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## Kibblelady

Herzo said:


> I for one see nothing wrong with her posting here, she has been nothing but nice in my eyes.


Shucks I try lol I used to be very snarky but after a two year break form this after like 10 years I am totally different and much more relaxed and stress free lol





> It just seems to me that it wouldn't be that easy to sue the vet over raw either, unless your dog did choke on a bone but that happens with cooked and also sticks. I still question the need to have this vote I think it's BS.



Hmm okay exploring the civil suit thing..... the vet in good faith recommends a product that is supposed to be safe and made by the promises and statutes as they apply to the company in their state and federally and the food happens to be tainted by melamine from the producer of a meal who did it nefariously to hide the poor quality of the product. The pet food company does not test the product for this because it absolutely should not be there and frankly never has been, and wouldn't expect it to be there anymore than they would ummm fairy dust since why on Earth would there be fairy dust in the product? (sorry it was very hard to think of something else that shouldn't be there to match this since I am getting tired and achy  ) They have never tested for Fairy dust and who would know how it would react in pet food? A *criminal* over in China, adulterating something on purpose to defraud a pet food company and that company using the product in good faith that is not detected because it is not tested for which then poisons the vet's clients pets shows no negligence on behalf of the veterinarian, which would be required. 

Now, there is a vet that goes against everything they have been taught in school and post grad, against all the studies and commonly found facts and beliefs and recommends a home prepared raw diet to a client who then goes home and feeds this to their pet and either the pet the owner or a family member or friend gets seriously ill due to pathogens that the vet *did* know could be there. In this case there is a boatload of negligence..... and it is *not* the fault of the raw diet, let me say that again, not the fault of the raw diet. The "suit" would be due to the client not exercising the common sense to research something new to be able to do it right but also due to the client feeling "the vet told me to do it and I didn't know there were germs on meat." But, in this litigious society the client would feel justified and a jury with similar understanding of a raw diet would probably feel the same unfortunately.....

IMO these are vastly different situations. Maybe I have explained what I am saying more accurately? (well except for the fairy dust lol sorry about that)


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## Scarlett_O'

OnyxDog said:


> My vet asks this of everybody when they have their first check-up. It goes in every pet's file so they can reference it if they need to.


Same here, Ive been to 30+ vets since getting my Beauregard in '97(sorry yes, I did count it out, but I got tired of counting after 33!LOL) And Ive only ever had MAYBE 2 or 3 NOT ask...and those were the ones who where just lost cost ones who I went to for just 1 or 2 things.


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## Kat

That's the first question my new vet asked me this year. My old vet would ask me too, and I ended up switching to my new vet because my old vet was strongly opposed to raw and made me feel uncomfortable about my choice to feed raw to Ruby.


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## smaughunter

I've been seeing my vet for the past 8 years but I haven't come out to her, so to speak, about being a raw feeder yet. Kiora had her annual checkup when we were only about a month in and I didn't bring it up, as it was very early. The Dr said...her teeth look pretty good for a 6 year old....I kept the reason to myself. Next year I'm gonna have to spill the beans and I just hope it goes well. I know my vet works for me but it's not easy to dump someone that I've been seeing for 8 years...So I'm keeping my fingers crossed I won't have to.


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## RedneckCowgirl

Yes, I have always been asked. And for the record, if I wasn't asked, that would cross that vet off my list entirely simply for the quote Tobi posted. In my eyes, if the vet doesn't ask what I feed then that means for every issue he will just prescribe pills or crappy diets to mask the real issues.


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## Losech

I am not concerned about this issue at all. I don't care what their stance on rawfeeding is, since I already disagree with a large number of things that they support. Honestly, unless it's actually killing my dog and they can prove it, no vet can make me stop feeding my dogs whatever I want. Be it homemade or commercial, I will feed what my dog does best on.
(I also think people should stop pitting one type of food against the other in terms of salmonella contamination, but if you want to keep doing it, I'm not gonna try to stop ya. I just think it ruins the whole discussion when people do that.) 

My vet does not know I feed raw/homemade foods. She does know that I feed high-quality, and I explained a bit of what I mean by that, and she is okay with that despite handing out propaganda for Royal Canin and the like. My vets office does sell "prescription" diets but has yet to try to get me to quit feeding high-quality foods and switch to something of lesser quality. I really like my vet, and don't want to lose her (or him, since there are two), but if they can't work with me in terms of nutrition, I will have to find a different one. I hope that never happens.


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## magicre

Kibblelady said:


> You seriously think there have been more salmonella infections in humans caused by kibble than raw or undercooked meats?


yes. yes i do.

most recently, children.

and if the news has 1/10th the accuracy i think it does, then absolutely yes.

these recalls are because of humans getting sick...from salmonella.


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## Kibblelady

Did you see the CDC outbreak I posted on another thread about the baby chick and duck salmonella event going on right now? I think it was like 200 and some ill, 50 some hospitalized and 2 dead. This was from mail order chickens. There are three separate events from three strains. My point was that pathogens can live on the animal and in their feces and infect human beings. There are a number of these. There is no way that there are more salmonella infections from kibble than from raw meats. How many recalls from salmonella in kibble has there been over the last number of years? 2 was it? The infection rates were not high either. This one situation with baby chicks has infected over 200 people in a number of states. I don't make this stuff up...just saying the potential for infection is there, I am not making that up either. I also use raw meats, I know the risk and act accordingly...does everyone? One poster just put she handles her dogs raw food all the time and never washes her hands, I'm not shaking her hand lol


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## Kibblelady

RedneckCowgirl said:


> Yes, I have always been asked. And for the record, if I wasn't asked, that would cross that vet off my list entirely simply for the quote Tobi posted. In my eyes, if the vet doesn't ask what I feed then that means for every issue he will just prescribe pills or crappy diets to mask the real issues.


I do not hold that opinion at all. It is my responsibility to feed my pets, not my vets job to teach me how to do that, I should learn this or know on my own if I want to own that animal. What is with passing off the responsibility IMO for common sense things to the vet when owning a pet? (Common sense meaning in knowing to look it up and gain knowledge) I am not effected at all if my Vet doesn't ask what I am feeding my dog lol If the dog looks good and is healthy it is obviously working and he does not need to know what brand and most likely wont ask unless maybe he or she is impressed and would like to know for reference. If I wanted to get a horse I would not buy one, throw it in the stall and then bug the vet about what I should feed it or what is proper, I *should* already know that or look it up. The vet is for sick or suffering animals, he is not my personal assistant or kennel manager. Not trying to be insulting, sorry if it is but come on, what is with the being concerned about the vet knowing what brand or type of food we are feeding? If it works great the vet likes that, if it is not he will probably ask to see if something is wrong with the diet such as "I feed him rice and beans" or "I feed him parrot food, he loves it." See what I am saying?


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## RedneckCowgirl

Kibblelady said:


> I do not hold that opinion at all. It is my responsibility to feed my pets, not my vets job to teach me how to do that, I should learn this or know on my own if I want to own that animal. What is with passing off the responsibility IMO for common sense things to the vet when owning a pet? (Common sense meaning in knowing to look it up and gain knowledge) I am not effected at all if my Vet doesn't ask what I am feeding my dog lol If the dog looks good and is healthy it is obviously working and he does not need to know what brand and most likely wont ask unless maybe he or she is impressed and would like to know for reference. If I wanted to get a horse I would not buy one, throw it in the stall and then bug the vet about what I should feed it or what is proper, I *should* already know that or look it up. The vet is for sick or suffering animals, he is not my personal assistant or kennel manager. Not trying to be insulting, sorry if it is but come on, what is with the being concerned about the vet knowing what brand or type of food we are feeding? If it works great the vet likes that, if it is not he will probably ask to see if something is wrong with the diet such as "I feed him rice and beans" or "I feed him parrot food, he loves it." *See what I am saying?*


Yes, but that has almost nothing to do with what I said.


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## Scarlett_O'

Kibblelady said:


> Did you see the CDC outbreak I posted on another thread about the baby chick and duck salmonella event going on right now? I think it was like 200 and some ill, 50 some hospitalized and 2 dead. This was from mail order chickens. There are three separate events from three strains. My point was that pathogens can live on the animal and in their feces and infect human beings. There are a number of these. There is no way that there are more salmonella infections from kibble than from raw meats. How many recalls from salmonella in kibble has there been over the last number of years? 2 was it? The infection rates were not high either. This one situation with baby chicks has infected over 200 people in a number of states. I don't make this stuff up...just saying the potential for infection is there, I am not making that up either. I also use raw meats, I know the risk and act accordingly...does everyone? One poster just put she handles her dogs raw food all the time and never washes her hands, I'm not shaking her hand lol


Live animals have always had the high chance to carry salmonella. I dont go around licking my horse or dogs, and people should be FAR smarter then they have proven to be with these chicks and ducklings. ("Chick" is the word for baby chickens, btw.) 

Once again though, that has NOTHING to do with food, pet food or other wise.


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## tem_sat

Kibblelady said:


> I do not hold that opinion at all.[...] I am not effected at all if my Vet doesn't ask what I am feeding my dog lol If the dog looks good and is healthy it is obviously working and he does not need to know what brand and most likely wont ask unless maybe he or she is impressed and would like to know for reference.


When I chose my vet, I interviewed 3 of them over the phone. Each asked me what I feed my pet. Under no circumstances would I hire a vet who would not pursue information to include my dog's diet in his medical records. That is an important part of patient history. In addition, my vet also gets another datapoint in his group of raw feeding clientele. It's important for him to have experience and knowledge in regard to pets who are fed various brands of kibble, home cooked, BARF, PMR, etc.


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## Liz

Well for myself and I believe most here I am definitely not expecting my vet to give me feeding instructions. However, diet does play an extremely important part in health and I expect him to at least ask and make a note in my dog's chart as to what he eats as well as other details of his history. A vet that does not see the link between health and feeding is not a vet I would trust with my dogs.


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## RedneckCowgirl

Liz said:


> Well for myself and I believe most here I am definitely not expecting my vet to give me feeding instructions. However, diet does play an extremely important part in health and I expect him to at least ask and make a note in my dog's chart as to what he eats as well as other details of his history. * A vet that does not see the link between health and feeding is not a vet I would trust with my dogs. *


This is the point I was trying to make


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## DaneMama

Kibblelady said:


> I do not hold that opinion at all. *It is my responsibility to feed my pets, not my vets job to teach me how to do that, I should learn this or know on my own if I want to own that animal. *What is with passing off the responsibility IMO for common sense things to the vet when owning a pet? (Common sense meaning in knowing to look it up and gain knowledge) I am not effected at all if my Vet doesn't ask what I am feeding my dog lol If the dog looks good and is healthy it is obviously working and he does not need to know what brand and most likely wont ask unless maybe he or she is impressed and would like to know for reference. If I wanted to get a horse I would not buy one, throw it in the stall and then bug the vet about what I should feed it or what is proper, I *should* already know that or look it up. The vet is for sick or suffering animals, he is not my personal assistant or kennel manager. Not trying to be insulting, sorry if it is but come on, what is with the being concerned about the vet knowing what brand or type of food we are feeding? If it works great the vet likes that, if it is not he will probably ask to see if something is wrong with the diet such as "I feed him rice and beans" or "I feed him parrot food, he loves it." See what I am saying?


Unfortunately the vast majority of pet owners go TO their VETS for health and diet information. They rely completely on what their vet tells them to feed their dogs....just the other day a client asked one of the vets I work with "So, is Dog Chow a good food?" Doc answers "Absolutely, lots of dogs do well on it. Its got corn in it". They don't even think to take it upon themselves to figure it out. People like you and me, and most of the people on this forum are the minority by a long shot. 

So while this issue may not effect people who take nutritional research upon themselves, it'll affect MOST pet owners, especially those who inquire about raw feeding to their vet. They may hear that raw feeding is the way to go on the street, from someone they know...they go ask the vet and get shot down. Not that that doesn't happen more often than not already, but this will just further push the envelope that raw is the end of days for dogs.

And as a side note: Vets are not just for the "sick or suffering animals". They are absolutely necessary to help KEEP our dogs healthy. Regular physical exams, blood work, etc are vital. Just because a dog looks healthy doesn't mean they are.


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## Kibblelady

RedneckCowgirl said:


> Yes, but that has almost nothing to do with what I said.



It was my reaction to you saying you would cross a vet off your list if they did not ask you what you are feeding your dogs. I just tend to ramble but the point is there but it wasn't directed at you...there are just some really lazy pet owners out there that IMO shouldn't even own a dog. They look at vets and groomers like they do the car dealership they drop their car off for service, see what I am getting at? If you prefer to have a vet ask you that question of course that is your prorogative, I do like I have said before, get concerned about the people following this conversation looking for information that are not participating and yeah, I don't want them to think a vet is wrong or "bad" for not asking them what they feed their dog. But I am getting tired and if this post is off please forgive me...should go to bed lol Before I start typing about the card game Magic or something lol


----------



## Kibblelady

DaneMama said:


> Unfortunately the vast majority of pet owners go TO their VETS for health and diet information. They rely completely on what their vet tells them to feed their dogs....just the other day a client asked one of the vets I work with "So, is Dog Chow a good food?" Doc answers "Absolutely, lots of dogs do well on it. Its got corn in it". They don't even think to take it upon themselves to figure it out. People like you and me, and most of the people on this forum are the minority by a long shot.
> 
> So while this issue may not effect people who take nutritional research upon themselves, it'll affect MOST pet owners, especially those who inquire about raw feeding to their vet. They may hear that raw feeding is the way to go on the street, from someone they know...they go ask the vet and get shot down. Not that that doesn't happen more often than not already, but this will just further push the envelope that raw is the end of days for dogs.
> 
> And as a side note: Vets are not just for the "sick or suffering animals". They are absolutely necessary to help KEEP our dogs healthy. Regular physical exams, blood work, etc are vital. Just because a dog looks healthy doesn't mean they are.



I did bring this up Natalie, I asked if people were bringing it up to the vet or if they just asked out of the blue. I just have never had a vet turn around and look at me and ask "so what do you feed him/her?" Never. I agree with the direction thing you posted sure...but I am not getting this "what are you feeding" thing out of the blue. *Unless* the vet is concerned about the condition of the dog or maybe is impressed with the condition of the dog.

I also agree that we here are the minority  But at the same time I think we can be a bit over critical and suspicious because of everything that is being put out there in blogs and posts etc. This is why I do look everything up, everything. But, for that more often than not I am criticized. Which really puzzles me to be honest.... I could start a totally false thing about an ingredient and plant it in a few places and within a year tons of people will also be passing it around  I am not kidding, this is being done. How is the average pet parent supposed to navigate through this? yes I so agree vets need to be updated on product quality but I would rather they learn about GDV surgery and prevention, cancer treatments, and treating arthritis or something. I accept the responsibility of choosing what to feed my dog and IMO people that decide to own an animal should take on this responsibility.

I do not take my pets for "well visits." This is something that has developed after my time of becoming a pet parent and dog fancier, but that is just me. I did take my Emma for one last week because she is 13 and keeps shutting all the doors in the house, sometimes locking herself in rooms when we are gone and then flipping out and destroying stuff lol It was a behavior change so I felt I should check her CBC and chem profile, it was perfect lol I guess she just likes shutting doors lol Must be "old timers."


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## DaneMama

Kibblelady said:


> I did bring this up Natalie, I asked if people were bringing it up to the vet or if they just asked out of the blue. I just have never had a vet turn around and look at me and ask "so what do you feed him/her?" Never. I agree with the direction thing you posted sure...but I am not getting this "what are you feeding" thing out of the blue. *Unless* the vet is concerned about the condition of the dog or maybe is impressed with the condition of the dog.


Again, I think that you've just been one of those who's never really been asked. I always ask, the vets I have always worked with ask regularly...maybe not EVERY client but most.


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## magicre

every vet i've ever taken my dogs to asks what my dogs are eating, right after or before they ask about appetite and whether or not they have difficulty swallowing or are they coughing....

i've had several vets from philly to seattle....and every one of them has asked.


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## Malika04

My Vet for Malika is pro-raw, or pro kibble depending on the pet's situation...

She is also holistic.

I am glad I found this vet for Malika.

The vet told me to feed Malika sardines for her coat and skin, as well as other raw diet foods.

Malika's hair is almost all grown back after she lost it from eating kibble.

She has been raw for 3 months now!


----------



## Roo

Almost all the vets I've ever seen have always asked what I'm feeding, and my most recent vet requires a patient history form filled out with detailed nutrition history listed. I think more vets may be asking about and discussing nutrition since the AAHA recently officially added nutrition as the new fifth vital assessment of health.
Pet Health | Pet Nutrition Evaluation - Improve Your Pets Health

I thought the responses from Dr. Becker and Dr. Dobias to the AVMA's raw proposal was interesting.
Raw Feeding for Cats and Dogs
Why Does American Veterinary Medical Association propose the vote against raw food? - Dr. Dobias Healing Solutions


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## Diva_Ziva

I have to say I am one who always looked to my Vet for all the answers, after all they went to school for it where I have only learned along the way and from others. I never even knew until recently that they were not taught much about nutrition and what they do learn from what I've been told is from kibble companies.

I'm lucky and happy to have my Vet while he/she (there are 2) don't suggest raw and to suggest kibble they know I am still in the process of switching Ziva to the raw diet. (She is doing really well so far) they both said they will help me where they can and will start researching it to learn more about it as I am not the first to wonder about it but I am the first to start it.


----------



## Tobi

Kibblelady said:


> Did you see the CDC outbreak I posted on another thread about the baby chick and duck salmonella event going on right now? I think it was like 200 and some ill, 50 some hospitalized and 2 dead. This was from mail order chickens. There are three separate events from three strains. My point was that pathogens can live on the animal and in their feces and infect human beings. There are a number of these. There is no way that there are more salmonella infections from kibble than from raw meats. How many recalls from salmonella in kibble has there been over the last number of years? 2 was it? The infection rates were not high either. This one situation with baby chicks has infected over 200 people in a number of states. I don't make this stuff up...just saying the potential for infection is there, I am not making that up either. I also use raw meats, I know the risk and act accordingly...does everyone? *One poster just put she handles her dogs raw food all the time and never washes her hands, I'm not shaking her hand lol*


Ya, that was me... two corrections though... I'm a HE, and also, i stated i haven't used "handsoap" not that i don't wash my hands... hot water is sufficient, We are a chemical free household, two of us are allergic to many different chemicals, it's our choice, and i don't just handle my dogs food I handle ours as well. I'm not much of a hand shaker anyways, I suppose i'll live.

ETA: Raw meats aren't even a relevent risk if you look at the numbers. 

300 million people in the US.
lets say 200 million of those 300 actually handle raw meat.
So lets look at the outbreaks of raw meat for 2012.

1 case of Ground beef. 33 people sick.
1 case of Ground tuna. 425 people sick.
458 people sick so far.

So 458 people sick from raw meats this year. so were looking at a very rough estimate of 0.000229% getting sick from handling raw meat so far in the US.


----------



## DaViking

I don't understand why raw feeders let, at least, 50% of this thread become a raw vs kibble thread (again) instead of discussing the core of AVMA's stance and how to proactively work so the raw feeders views can get some spotlight and consideration. It's a conundrum to me why many raw feeders prefere to waste time on preaching instead of developing, documenting and perfecting PMR as a method and feeding alternative. The silence when a person with credentials the other day stepped in on the raw ppl's side was deafening, speaks volumes. AVMA's recommendation is an internal one. The world isn't perfect, it's full of corruption. The western world is turning into one big nanny state. Your best weapon is education. Anyways, that's all I have to say in this thread. Peace.


----------



## tem_sat

DaViking said:


> The western world is turning into one big nanny state.


The USA in particular. I will give you an example. I used to spend summers in Paris and came to love Camembert cheese and fresh butter made in Normandy. I then would return home to find out what I loved in France was illegal to be sold for consumption in the United States. The reason why the cheese and butter tasted so fabulous in France was due to the fact it was made with unpasteurized milk. The GOVERNMENT of all things doesn't trust us with something as "dangerous" as unpasteurized milk. I then visited Montreal, Canada. I was thrilled to find that I could again get Camembert made from unpasteurized milk.

This is very much related to the "fear" of all things raw. Much of it has been ingrained in our minds due to the position of those who control our Country.

ETA: I forgot to add this. Also, if you think that it is "typical" that people from other countries buy things such as store-bought mayonnaise, you coudn't be further from the truth. That is normally made at home with raw eggs. The same goes for Caesar salad dressing, Hollandaise sauce, etc. Our paranoia of Salmonella is truely at the extreme in many cases.


----------



## Dude and Bucks Mamma

Kibblelady said:


> I understand Cowboy, I do. I just honestly have never met a vet in 30yrs that has asked what I feed my dogs, ever. I am of course wondering why all you guys have been asked this? Did you offer it? I am seriously stumped here. Are they noticing something about your dogs that causes them to ask? Are they there for a sick visit? (just asking questions, no accusations or raw bashing)


I took my pup in for puppy shots and, because he looked so impressive for a 16 week old pup, my vet wanted to know what I feed. Luckily, I have a raw feeding vet but I have been asked by every vet I have ever gone to, including the temporary vet standing in for our raw feeding vet while she was on leave.


----------



## magicre

Kibblelady said:


> Very true...and you have the right to do what you want and saying your dogs are going to die is really silly.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This is sad if it happens. I would say the majority of vets have quite a bit of knowledge in their heads...I don't think they just blindly accept something because the AVMA states it you know? There are tons of policies and positions the various veterinary schools have and I am sure they have students and graduates that reject what the school feels based on information they have gathers, make sense? I know this will impact many vets I am sure....some immature vets will see it as an opportunity to say "seee??!!" and that is also silly and insulting. In the end it does not change what *you* feel and imo that is the most important view.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I do not think many of them will even hear about this policy to be honest. My position is many vets do not even ask what you are feeding your dog if they do not think there is a problem with the diet. If they don't ask, they do not know the dog's diet and will not throw this policy at them. KWIM?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I agree totally, I have used some of these over the years.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I'm not offended at all. While I understand what you are saying specifically do not dismiss the fact that I have dealt with similar consequences and behavior in other areas and in my life. It is very frustrating and upsetting to be treated like you are crazy, stupid or "weird" for something you believe in so strongly. Something you believe is very good and others do not seem to see it or want to hear about it...and well that old myth and rumor thing is rampant in many things surrounding human beings and I, in particular, am very sensitive to it. Please do not think I do not understand, I do.
> 
> My views on what I feed my dogs are based on many issues as are yours. A few are.. having an immune compromised person in the home being one very important one..another having an elderly person in the home... and I do not have the freezer space as I have 3 cats and 5 dogs lol as well as I *know* I do not have the dedication for it, being honest. I am not the right person for this diet, make sense? It's not that I am avoiding the diet with my dogs. I do give them things that are raw and with a hope and a prayer it will not harm my Mom, I am taking a risk with that  Sometimes I wonder if I have the right to do that? I am I do not care for the premade ones, I tried one once and had a few problems with it nutrient wise. What I am feeding now is working for my dogs and I and that's the point right? Just as I would assume it is for you?


i'm glad that what you feed works for your dogs, but that's not what this whole thing is about. and saying that you feed raw with a hope and a prayer that it won't hurt your mom? i don't understand, but i will take a guess that you're hoping she doesn't get sick from you feeding your dogs raw food and then they kiss her.

it is simply not true about dogs giving salmonella or any other bacteria to immuno compromised people and the elderly. yet, the statement you just made is part and parcel of the entire misconception going on.

this whole brou ha ha is yet another example of knee jerk reactions.

and i always say, follow the money, for that's where the path leads...

purina was behind the delta society decision and it looks as if they are behind this one.

there is no conspiracy theory going on here....

i just find it sadly amusing, that, after all the recalls of kibble, the AVMA is taking a stand against raw feeding.

when Delta society did the same thing, many many people suffered as did the children and the adults in hospitals who benefitted from the visits from these dogs....

and now raw fed dogs are no longer allowed in their program.

salmonella is everywhere. there is no way to get rid of it.

we depend on our immunities and our dogs' immunities to not contract it.

salmonella cases are present across the board...from the casual house person who handles a chicken or it's egg to the kibble whose bag was open to air and the small amount allowed by the usda was permitted to grow, for that is how salmonella grows....air exposure.

our hands are a beautiful thing. look at your palms. they are not porous...and that is for a good reason. it's to keep germs out.

friction kills germs....and there are so many strains of bacteria, it's mind boggling...

i am so tired of the knee jerk reactions by any organisation who would believe the absolute nonsense coming down the pike...

it's pure scare tactics to think raw food is going to kill us, give us diseases.....the cleanest chicken in the world has germs.

unless you have fed your dogs raw, i 'm sorry...but you cannot know. and it doesn't matter.

discrimination? that's not the issue here. i'm used to being discriminated against.....if i allowed every organisation to dictate who i am, what i do, then i'd be a sorry soul, drooling in a corner....

it's more about people who know nothing about bacteria and how it's spread and who gets sick and who doesn't.....are dictating what should be fed and what shouldn't...

this whole thing reminds me of the days when bathing was thought to allow demons in.

it's just wrong thinking. there are very good reasons to feed raw. to vote on a policy which will affect how a vet treats dogs and cats will definitely have an impact.....for many people don't understand their own animals.....


----------



## kathylcsw

DaViking said:


> *I don't understand why raw feeders let, at least, 50% of this thread become a raw vs kibble thread (again) instead of discussing the core of AVMA's stance and how to proactively work so the raw feeders views can get some spotlight and consideration*. It's a conundrum to me why many raw feeders prefere to waste time on preaching instead of developing, documenting and perfecting PMR as a method and feeding alternative. The silence when a person with credentials the other day stepped in on the raw ppl's side was deafening, speaks volumes. AVMA's recommendation is an internal one. The world isn't perfect, it's full of corruption. The western world is turning into one big nanny state. Your best weapon is education. Anyways, that's all I have to say in this thread. Peace.



If you will look back over this thread I think you will see that a kibble feeder kept wanting to discuss the salmonella risk associated with feeding raw meat. The discussion then went on to compare salmonella in kibble. The point was that both feeding methods can expose dogs and humans to bacteria. If this was AVMA's sole reason for opposing raw feeding then it doesn't fly. I haven't noticed any "preaching" by raw feeders just trying to address that old chestnut that raw meat will kill you and your dogs. it is hard to educate until that is laid to rest.


----------



## naturalfeddogs

Kibblelady said:


> Very true...and you have the right to do what you want and saying your dogs are going to die is really silly.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This is sad if it happens. I would say the majority of vets have quite a bit of knowledge in their heads...I don't think they just blindly accept something because the AVMA states it you know? There are tons of policies and positions the various veterinary schools have and I am sure they have students and graduates that reject what the school feels based on information they have gathers, make sense? I know this will impact many vets I am sure....some immature vets will see it as an opportunity to say "seee??!!" and that is also silly and insulting. In the end it does not change what *you* feel and imo that is the most important view.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I do not think many of them will even hear about this policy to be honest. My position is many vets do not even ask what you are feeding your dog if they do not think there is a problem with the diet. If they don't ask, they do not know the dog's diet and will not throw this policy at them. KWIM?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I agree totally, I have used some of these over the years.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I'm not offended at all. While I understand what you are saying specifically do not dismiss the fact that I have dealt with similar consequences and behavior in other areas and in my life. It is very frustrating and upsetting to be treated like you are crazy, stupid or "weird" for something you believe in so strongly. Something you believe is very good and others do not seem to see it or want to hear about it...and well that old myth and rumor thing is rampant in many things surrounding human beings and I, in particular, am very sensitive to it. Please do not think I do not understand, I do.
> 
> My views on what I feed my dogs are based on many issues as are yours. A few are.. having an immune compromised person in the home being one very important one..another having an elderly person in the home... and I do not have the freezer space as I have 3 cats and 5 dogs lol as well as I *know* I do not have the dedication for it, being honest. I am not the right person for this diet, make sense? It's not that I am avoiding the diet with my dogs. I do give them things that are raw and with a hope and a prayer it will not harm my Mom, I am taking a risk with that  Sometimes I wonder if I have the right to do that? I am I do not care for the premade ones, I tried one once and had a few problems with it nutrient wise. What I am feeding now is working for my dogs and I and that's the point right? Just as I would assume it is for you?


I know there is one person on here who is immune compromised and feeds raw. I also am not sure why if you feed raw, your mom will get sick? You may feed a little raw, but you do believe in kibble more. Nothing wrong with that. Your name says it as well. It sound to me more like you are looking more for excuses against raw, maybe because you don't have that much knowledge of it. Nothing wrong with that either. But use these posts as a learning oportunity, rather than negativity towards it. Please don't take offense, just that this is how I am reading you in your posts.


----------



## Sapphire-Light

magicre said:


> salmonella is everywhere. there is no way to get rid of it.
> 
> we depend on our immunities and our dogs' immunities to not contract it.
> 
> salmonella cases are present across the board...from the casual house person who handles a chicken or it's egg to the kibble whose bag was open to air and the small amount allowed by the usda was permitted to grow, for that is how salmonella grows....air exposure.




Agree, I find odd that people are so shocked to the fact of pets eating raw and telling you that everyone is going to get sick, when all it takes is to observer in common everyday places like supermarkets.

Countless times (easier to spot while you are waiting in line) I have seen people wit their cart that have raw meats on it, but they also have a toddler wit them and then the child gets impatient so the adult gives the child a chocolate, cookie, etc.. that was also in the cart and is obvious they didn't washed the hands BEFORE giving the cookie to the toddler, or just simply the child touching the cart and the he/she sucks his/her thumb.

Supermarkets karts are FILLED wit bacteria E. coli found on 50 percent of shopping carts - Health - Children's health - NBCNews.com , still you can see people touch then and they don't wash their hands before eating or drinking what they just brought .

I have seen really flirty karts (dirt from raw veggies, blood from raw meat, etc) and then an employee just comes wit a damped rag and pass the rag a bit and the he/she leaves the kart wit the others at the supermarket entrance and that's all what they do, and the karts stay like that for days witout being washed of disinfected.


----------



## Tobi

AVMA needs to take a stance on shopping carts i think! those are a serious danger! eace:


----------



## Roo

Did anyone else happen to read Answers Raw Pet food letter to the AVMA on their facebook page? It was interesting. . .

The AVMA headquarters is located in IL, and it seems the AVMA is registered as a not-for profit organization. In the letter from Answers Raw Pet Food to the AVMA it stated. . .

_"Under Attorney General Lisa Madigan’s Consumer Protection Division website it provides guidance and responsibilities of licensed Not-For-Profit Organizations to avoid conflicts of interest in conducting association business and to protect Illinois consumers and businesses victimized by fraud, deception, and unfair business practices. Such a stated role for a Not-for-Profit organization comes with a huge responsibility of ensuring conduct is not prejudicial; presenting unbiased science research and findings; being fair, honest and balanced in the presentation of all facts and debates; ensuring policies do not become anticompetitive; taking on only those issues that properly serve the stated purpose of the organization and much more."_

I read on Susan's blog that in 2008 the AVMA entered into a 4 year partnership (the Platinum Partner Program) with Fort Dodge Animal Health, Hill's Pet Nutrition, and Merial in an arranged commitment to give the AVMA $380,000.00 a year for four years in exchange for benefits from the association.

Could the partnership program be considered a conflict of interest for a non profit organization like the AVMA?

I know the AVMA Chair of the committee left the following comment on the AVMA site. . . 
_"As previously stated, I am the current Chair of the Council on Public Health and Regulatory Veterinary Medicine (CPHRVM). The Council did not draft the current policy at the request of the Delta Society or any pet food manufacturer. It is true that the Delta Society did inquire whether the AVMA had a policy on raw diets, and since there was not one, the issue was placed on the agenda for discussion at a CPHRVM meeting. The volunteer veterinarians that represent state and federal agencies, academia and the armed forces discussed the issue and felt that drafting a policy on the potential risks of raw food was within the charge given to our Council and was of interest to the members of the Council that are employed in various roles in public health positions and regulatory agencies.

A subcommittee was formed within the Council to review the current research published on the topic and to draft a policy. I was on the subcommittee along with a colleague employed by the CDC and a colleague employed by the FDA. In addition to being vetrinarians, each of us has an MPH and works in a public health related field. As stated, we reviewed many papers on the topic, although we chose to cite six specific papers in the policy itself. This policy was brought forth to the full Council for discussion, editing, and revisions. The draft policy was then shared with other related Councils and Committees that would possibly have an opinion. The process has been ongoing for over 18 months and we have incorporated the suggested edits from the other relevant AVMA entities. The policy is now being referred to the House of Delegates for consideration.

There has been no discussion about the content of the policy with any pet food manufacturer,industry representative or the Delta Society. The policy was composed by volunteer veterinarians that are elected to the Council by the AVMA House of Delegates based on their education and experience. As stated previously, the topic of food safety related to commercially prepared kibble is on the agenda for the August meting of the CPHRVM."_

I have a hard time completely believing him saying this has nothing to do with Delta/Purina, when the AVMA has things like the Partnership Program, maybe I'm reading way too much into it, I don't know.


----------



## Scarlett_O'

Roo said:


> Did anyone else happen to read Answers Raw Pet food letter to the AVMA on their facebook page? It was interesting. . .
> 
> The AVMA headquarters is located in IL, and it seems the AVMA is registered as a not-for profit organization. In the letter from Answers Raw Pet Food to the AVMA it stated. . .
> 
> _"Under Attorney General Lisa Madigan’s Consumer Protection Division website it provides guidance and responsibilities of licensed Not-For-Profit Organizations to avoid conflicts of interest in conducting association business and to protect Illinois consumers and businesses victimized by fraud, deception, and unfair business practices. Such a stated role for a Not-for-Profit organization comes with a huge responsibility of ensuring conduct is not prejudicial; presenting unbiased science research and findings; being fair, honest and balanced in the presentation of all facts and debates; ensuring policies do not become anticompetitive; taking on only those issues that properly serve the stated purpose of the organization and much more."_
> 
> I read on Susan's blog that in 2008 the AVMA entered into a 4 year partnership (the Platinum Partner Program) with Fort Dodge Animal Health, Hill's Pet Nutrition, and Merial in an arranged commitment to give the AVMA $380,000.00 a year for four years in exchange for benefits from the association.
> 
> Could the partnership program be considered a conflict of interest for a non profit organization like the AVMA?
> 
> I know the AVMA Chair of the committee left the following comment on the AVMA site. . .
> _"As previously stated, I am the current Chair of the Council on Public Health and Regulatory Veterinary Medicine (CPHRVM). The Council did not draft the current policy at the request of the Delta Society or any pet food manufacturer. It is true that the Delta Society did inquire whether the AVMA had a policy on raw diets, and since there was not one, the issue was placed on the agenda for discussion at a CPHRVM meeting. The volunteer veterinarians that represent state and federal agencies, academia and the armed forces discussed the issue and felt that drafting a policy on the potential risks of raw food was within the charge given to our Council and was of interest to the members of the Council that are employed in various roles in public health positions and regulatory agencies.
> 
> A subcommittee was formed within the Council to review the current research published on the topic and to draft a policy. I was on the subcommittee along with a colleague employed by the CDC and a colleague employed by the FDA. In addition to being vetrinarians, each of us has an MPH and works in a public health related field. As stated, we reviewed many papers on the topic, although we chose to cite six specific papers in the policy itself. This policy was brought forth to the full Council for discussion, editing, and revisions. The draft policy was then shared with other related Councils and Committees that would possibly have an opinion. The process has been ongoing for over 18 months and we have incorporated the suggested edits from the other relevant AVMA entities. The policy is now being referred to the House of Delegates for consideration.
> 
> There has been no discussion about the content of the policy with any pet food manufacturer,industry representative or the Delta Society. The policy was composed by volunteer veterinarians that are elected to the Council by the AVMA House of Delegates based on their education and experience. As stated previously, the topic of food safety related to commercially prepared kibble is on the agenda for the August meting of the CPHRVM."_
> 
> I have a hard time completely believing him saying this has nothing to do with Delta/Purina, when the AVMA has things like the Partnership Program, maybe I'm reading way too much into it, I don't know.


Hmm....VERY VERY interesting Roo! Thank you!:thumb: I will be looking more into this...seems very....interesting!! :wink:


----------



## magicre

i think i've been looking at this all wrong.

i just returned from the vet....first question he asked was regarding malia's appetite...and how long did it take her to finish eating?

these are very good questions. a dog who takes too long to eat could have oral problems or another condition that affects appetite. a dog who is not hungry or just picks at food is an indication to look further.

ok. good questions. he then asked me what she ate. and of course, i told him raw, just as i've told him the past almost three years.

he knows this and commented on how beautiful her fur and teeth and build is....this is when we began the discussion about raw feeding...

he admits he knows little about it but he believes there are those who feed it 'right' and those who don't. i agree with this statement.

i then said that my concern did not lie with him not knowing everything there is to know about nutrition...how could he? what concerned me was the information imparted was wrong information...

when he said that he was concerned about food handling and preparation, i then asked him to name for me all the baceria and viruses in the treatment room and should i be concerned for my dog? he laughed and took my point.

but then he said that if food is not prepared and stored properly, sickness will occur....

and then i said, well, my darling andrew, here is where you are wrong. when a dog buries a bully stick and then enjoys it later, would you say it's clean?

again. point taken.

i said do you agree that immunity begins in the gut? he said yes. i said that raw fed dogs have a whole different gut flora than other dogs....he agreed with that, due to the lack of additives and preservatives, etc.

but then he said, how do you know you're feeding the proper balance? i then asked him how much nutrition he took in vet school and he had to admit that he received as much as i did in med school.

we had a good laugh, so i then said, what makes you think the kibble companies know what the correct and true balance in...and, if a kibble food has added in menadione bisulfate, would you know what that does to a dog's liver? what about rosemary extract and the dozens of other ingredients that dogs not only do not need, but are probably not good for them...

he is an honest man and truthfully then said this.

re, my friend? you are part of the 2%.....many of the people with whom i deal....i'm lucky if i can get them to stop feeding their dogs mc donalds and cheetos.

and that's when i realised this poor guy had a greater battle on his hands than a raw vs kibble debate. 

he also said the most obstructions he had to operate on were from socks....

i think, we are a microcosm.....kibble feeders look for the best kibble...my vet wishes people would feed better kibbles....raw feeders are constantly looking for more and more balance in the amount of proteins and body parts we offer.

but we are leaving out a whole group of people....who are the very people keeping vets in business...those who feed their dogs absolute crap...and by crap, i'm talking about potato chips.....liquor, wine, lunch meats, mc donalds...etc.

and that's when i realised i love my vet...who will take the time to talk to me....and learn from me...and teach me what he knows.

and, btw....my almost 13 year old dog is magnificent., his words.


----------



## magicre

and ps....he looks at the avma much the way i look at the ama and apa. 

not very much. LOL


----------



## Kibblelady

kathylcsw said:


> If you will look back over this thread I think you will see that a kibble feeder kept wanting to discuss the salmonella risk associated with feeding raw meat. The discussion then went on to compare salmonella in kibble. The point was that both feeding methods can expose dogs and humans to bacteria. If this was AVMA's sole reason for opposing raw feeding then it doesn't fly. I haven't noticed any "preaching" by raw feeders just trying to address that old chestnut that raw meat will kill you and your dogs. it is hard to educate until that is laid to rest.


*NO* a board member was trying to put herself in the shoes of the vets and the AMVA. Why am I constantly being called a "kibble feeder" I find that kinda, I don't know, kinda insulting. Because it is kinda meant to be a label that almost puts me below something else. Please stop calling me that? My name is Cherri, or Kibblelady, your preference  I did not bring up anything about the existence of salmonella in kibble, someone else did, that was almost like a side discussion based on the thread but also appropriate. I also have said nothing about raw meat killing dogs, I do not believe that it does, I feed my dogs raw. Is the possibility there? Yes it is...just as it is for kibble. My point, I'll say it again, is an environmental exposure, not in the GI system of the dog. My mother can be exposed as she pets my dogs and sometimes cleans up accidents for me in my home.... it is not irrational or hysterical for me to be aware of the risk of those things overall, including kibble. I just feel that there is a higher risk of a number of the specific salmonella viruses existing on raw meat as compared to kibble. It is a risk assessment, not a put down, a the sky is falling comment or anything of that nature. It would be very irresponsible of me not to be aware of the risk caused to my mother. My pointing it out is not an insult to any of you or raw feeding.


----------



## Kibblelady

naturalfeddogs said:


> I know there is one person on here who is immune compromised and feeds raw. I also am not sure why if you feed raw, your mom will get sick? You may feed a little raw, but you do believe in kibble more. Nothing wrong with that. Your name says it as well. It sound to me more like you are looking more for excuses against raw, maybe because you don't have that much knowledge of it. Nothing wrong with that either. But use these posts as a learning oportunity, rather than negativity towards it. Please don't take offense, just that this is how I am reading you in your posts.


I have no negativity toward raw, I have said this a number of times. That is being inferred not implied. I also did not say I believe in either diet more, in fact I posted that *I* was not right for the diet not the other way around, make sense? Lol My monicker came from friends because I am very knowledgeable about kibbles, what makes them, the ingredients and giving advice on them...it does not mean I only support kibble. Please, please read my words, please do not put any emotion on them. I always say what I mean and mean what I say, there is nothing hidden or implied. I am very aware of how things can be taken in type which is why you have seen me clarifying things that could be misunderstood or taken wrong. If you suspect something, ask me and I will answer without problem.


----------



## Kibblelady

I know one thing, I do not go to the vet as much as many of you lol Just an observation. I am sure much of it is well visits? We are taking Tobe to the new vet in a few minutes, I will tell you all if he asks what we are feeding him. I would assume he will since it is a dog in late stage cancer but lets see.


----------



## MollyWoppy

I will admit I've virtually living at the vets in the past month. But, two were injuries, something in the eye of my cat and my dog sprained her wrist. And, don't forget, a lot of us have yearly bloodwork and urinalysis done on our young dogs and cats just to monitor their health. 
That's how we picked up microscopic blood in the urine of my 4yo cat. Most other owners wouldn't have known about it until the blood was visable. Most other owners wouldn't fork out for ultrasounds, countless urinalysis's, more bloodwork to find out whats wrong. 
Mol went today because I noticed a slight yellow discharge from her 'equipment'. Yellow to me means infection, so down to the vets we go. Again. 
So yeah, I think it's more the fact that most people who care enough to post on this board tend to be very vigilant about the health and well being of their pups/kittens.
And, yes, my vet asks every single time what I'm feeding both the dog and the cat. If it's only been a week since they've seen us, they still ask if they are on the same kibble/food. They asked me this morning which resulted in a surprisingly positive discussion about the perils and benefits of raw.

Good luck with Tobe. I hope things have settled down for a bit.


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## Tobi

We haven't been to the vet this year... and only once last year. I can't understand why that topic would even be relevant unless you were trying to ruffle feathers.


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## Scarlett_O'

Ive been to the vet 6 times in the past 3 years. Thats pretty good when you have 7 pets!:wink:
Brody's alter, Ducki's spay, Rhett's visit after coming up here, Rhett HW test plus Rhett/Leo/Brody's visit for worms-thank you inlaws:wacko:, Rhett's rabies before going to So Cal with us, and Keeva's welcome home vet visit. Not for any extreme reasons, and other then the worms thanks to the in-laws nothing health related!:wink:

EDIT TO ADD, those 7 vet visits were to 4 different vets...because in all reality I havent found one I really like yet. The one who did Rhett's rabies and Keeva's welcome home visit is really nice and all for limited/delayed vaxxing which is a plus, but she wouldnt be for raw if she knew about what they were fed. 
But the one who did Rhett's welcome home visit and Ducki's Spay and the one who we took the boys to for worming were both VERY much so against raw, to the point of one of them telling me that Rhett would never make it to 1 if fed only animal protein and the other saying "well good luck with that, Ill see you in a few months when you need me to take a bone or two out of one or more of them"! I couldnt believe such rubbish was coming out of those who are suppose to help owners!!:wacko: 
(Oh and those numbers dont include the vet who put down my beloved Beauregard last year.)

But then again I'm 24 this August havent been to the doctor since I was 14!:thumb:


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## nupe

I went to the vet this year and got yearly shots and rabies vaccination...told vet to give me the 3 year rabies shot...and i will see him in 3 years..lol...he looked at me and said...you have been on the internet huh??...i said..""yes sir'!!!


----------



## magicre

Kibblelady said:


> I know one thing, I do not go to the vet as much as many of you lol Just an observation. I am sure much of it is well visits? We are taking Tobe to the new vet in a few minutes, I will tell you all if he asks what we are feeding him. I would assume he will since it is a dog in late stage cancer but lets see.


in three years, my dogs have been to the vet three times.

prior to that, my dogs were there every few months.

my total bill this year will be: 361. for the year, barring any emergencies.


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## nupe

Kibblelady said:


> *NO* a board member was trying to put herself in the shoes of the vets and the AMVA. *Why am I constantly being called a "kibble feeder*" I find that kinda, I don't know, kinda insulting. Because it is kinda meant to be a label that almost puts me below something else. Please stop calling me that? My name is Cherri, or Kibblelady, your preference  I did not bring up anything about the existence of salmonella in kibble, someone else did, that was almost like a side discussion based on the thread but also appropriate. I also have said nothing about raw meat killing dogs, I do not believe that it does, I feed my dogs raw. Is the possibility there? Yes it is...just as it is for kibble. My point, I'll say it again, is an environmental exposure, not in the GI system of the dog. My mother can be exposed as she pets my dogs and sometimes cleans up accidents for me in my home.... it is not irrational or hysterical for me to be aware of the risk of those things overall, including kibble. I just feel that there is a higher risk of a number of the specific salmonella viruses existing on raw meat as compared to kibble. It is a risk assessment, not a put down, a the sky is falling comment or anything of that nature. It would be very irresponsible of me not to be aware of the risk caused to my mother. My pointing it out is not an insult to any of you or raw feeding.





Well your name does say ""Kibble lady""...lol just kidding...just a little humor injected here.


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## ShanniBella

I never imagined this thread would become 12 pages when I started it! But here's my story in a nutshell!! 

KIBBLE FED DOG LOSING HER HAIR ALL OVER HER BODY FOR THE FIRST 18 MONTHS OF HER LIFE! Yeast infections, ear infections, etc. I had her on all the TOP kibbles that were grain free to no avail did any of them help her and alls the vets wanted to do was keep giving her steroids and antibiotics and I refused to fall into that cycle! So my road to educate myself on RAW began!
































































RAW FED SINCE APRIL 1ST OF THIS YEAR AND HAIR HAS ALL COME BACK ALL OVER HER BODY.





























I think the after pics speak for themselves......now I'm not saying that RAW is the end all be all but it saved my dog from a miserable life of allergies to whatever was in her kibble and now that she is on PMR she is shiny, healthy, and her teeth are pearly white again! I will never feed kibble again to any dog that walks into my house! And nobody has any RIGHT to tell me that I can't feed it!


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## magicre

no one will tell you what to feed or not feed. that's not what this policy making is about. they are taking a stand and those vets who use the avma as a guideline will not advise their clients to feed raw.

it's similar to what delta society did based on their ahem scientific studies...and voted to not allow raw fed dogs into their program. 

there are other programs.

the wrong thinking concerning the handling, preparation and storage of raw proteins is enormously misunderstood...and, even though we know it's wrong thinking....it's their playground, their policy.


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## MollyWoppy

I wonder too re. Today, at the vets, I was given a lecture about washing all raw food before giving it to my dog. The head vet tech said she wasn't against raw food, didn't condone it, but understood me wanting to give my dog natural fresh foods. But, the risk of salmonella had to be addressed. I nearly told her that it sounded like they'd got the memo from AVMA, but didn't want to ruin the "raw might be ok" moment.


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## Malika04

ShanniBella said:


> I never imagined this thread would become 12 pages when I started it! But here's my story in a nutshell!!
> 
> KIBBLE FED DOG LOSING HER HAIR ALL OVER HER BODY FOR THE FIRST 18 MONTHS OF HER LIFE! Yeast infections, ear infections, etc. I had her on all the TOP kibbles that were grain free to no avail did any of them help her and alls the vets wanted to do was keep giving her steroids and antibiotics and I refused to fall into that cycle! So my road to educate myself on RAW began!
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Yes I have had the same raw experience with Malika! Her hair fell out on Premium Grain free kibble, She has been rawfor almost 4 months now and her hair is growing back and she is not itching...


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## Dude and Bucks Mamma

Kibblelady said:


> I know one thing, I do not go to the vet as much as many of you lol Just an observation. I am sure much of it is well visits? We are taking Tobe to the new vet in a few minutes, I will tell you all if he asks what we are feeding him. I would assume he will since it is a dog in late stage cancer but lets see.


In the past 9 years I have been to the vet:

Once for Dude's rabies vaccine and microchip
Twice for puppy shots for Buck
Once for Buck's rabies vaccine
Once for a another rabies shot for Dude
And we will be going in August for Buck's next rabies vaccine and microchip. 

Six times in nine years and NONE for anything but vaccines. I don't know what your point was with that statement.


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## naturalfeddogs

I haven't had a trip to the vet since starting raw at all. Almost four years.


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## magicre

molly, this goes back further than the new avma probable policy.....

this was my vet's huge concern....the bacteria running rampant throughout my world....taking over, turning me into the borg...

killing me with my immunocompromised bad self and killing my dogs.....and wasn't i already sad from having to put four dogs down in four years?

did i want two more on my head?

yes. comments were made.

three years ago, i was not sure of myself. 

yesterday i was.

but i get it now. i really do.

what's a little salmonella when compared to feeding junk foods....marijuana, liquor, beer. 

poor soul really does believe that raw meat is so chock filled with bacteria as to render it i don't know what.

and he eats meat.

his concern for the handling, the prep, the storage.....he was so concerned, i almost wanted to pat his head...and not in a condescending way....

doctor, doctor, why aren't there MORE cases of salmonella amongst those who handle raw product? be it for themselves or their families or their animals?

his concern was them eating it raw.....that they are getting bacteria introduced into their systems....

and i finally shook my head and said that i don't mind naivete....i can understand that, and i say that kindly. but wrong thinking is a hard one for me to swallow....

i simply don't have the wherewithal to make him undo years of wrong thinking to tell him the gut flora of a raw fed animal is now appropriate to handle bacteria.

and that, yes, we do wash our hands.

most of the time LOL


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## Kibblelady

nupe said:


> Well your name does say ""Kibble lady""...lol just kidding...just a little humor injected here.


It is funny, I find it humorous, especially the first time I was called that lol Originally I had a GSD screen name, now that my time with my GSDs is nearing a close I just felt something else was more appropriate, it is a pain to pick a new "name" when you have been online so long. Kibblelady is cute and memorable IMO  "Kibbler" sounds like the Riddler or something  lol


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## Kibblelady

Dude and Bucks Mamma said:


> In the past 9 years I have been to the vet:
> 
> Once for Dude's rabies vaccine and microchip
> Twice for puppy shots for Buck
> Once for Buck's rabies vaccine
> Once for a another rabies shot for Dude
> And we will be going in August for Buck's next rabies vaccine and microchip.
> 
> Six times in nine years and NONE for anything but vaccines. I don't know what your point was with that statement.


It was really just some evil humor, should have said so, sorry. I did say I assumed they were for well visits.

I *do* know that any of you getting these nasty, condescending comments should still be looking for another vet, those are just disrespectful I very much agree.


Tobe saw a new vet yesterday...OMG I am in love! Amazing!! It is a hospital with two vets and we saw the woman. She was so thorough, compassionate and supportive. I am so friggin' happy. I will get into the whole visit on Tobe's thread in the health section but to comment on if she asked me about what I feed him yes/no. When I go to the vet with a sick animal I write everything like meds, supplements and diet on a sheet for them, they appreciate this. She did not talk about diet until very last. I had written he is currently eating NV Instinct with Evo canned (when I went to the store they did not have a small bag of Evo which is what my second choice was, Pinnacle was what I was hoping to find. Her statement "Oh, I see you are a purist" lol Oooo I reacted to that, not in a bad way but I tend to not like that label in any area of my life so I explained "me" to her and then she understood. She was familiar with Evo and preferred it within the two but has recommended a senior food for Tobe and for a specific reason having to do with his cancer, it's extent and the minerals involved (which is what I was thinking right off, but, wanted to consider what was suggested on this board...sorry, no offense guys but my choice was correct. He should not really be eating such high protein, reved up foods right now) However, she said leave it alone...Tobe has at the very most 1.5 mths left if that  It really is not going to matter much what I feed him.... Approx 3 minutes was spent on diet. No Science diet was suggested, nor any other product save her saying she liked Evo.

I do want to comment on something else about the thread. I do not believe I have been encouraging a kibble vs raw discussion, that has not been my goal not my interest at all. Other people common to this board have been and it was just done again... to the few who keep "blaming" me for this, please stop, it's not me doing it okay? I *know* people have animals that were not doing well on kibble now doing well on raw, I have also seen the opposite. I do not feel negatively about raw or speak badly of it. My feeding kibble as a base diet does not mean I think I have chosen "the best" I have simply chosen what is best for myself and my crew. When I say there is sound evidence showing the high level of pathogens in our food system, in meats, I am not living in lala land or misinformed and I am not saying raw is bad or crying "something is definitely going to happen." I am just balancing risk and talking about it. I hope this will not come up yet again?


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## Kibblelady

MollyWoppy said:


> I will admit I've virtually living at the vets in the past month. But, two were injuries, something in the eye of my cat and my dog sprained her wrist. And, don't forget, a lot of us have yearly bloodwork and urinalysis done on our young dogs and cats just to monitor their health.
> That's how we picked up microscopic blood in the urine of my 4yo cat. Most other owners wouldn't have known about it until the blood was visable. Most other owners wouldn't fork out for ultrasounds, countless urinalysis's, more bloodwork to find out whats wrong.
> Mol went today because I noticed a slight yellow discharge from her 'equipment'. Yellow to me means infection, so down to the vets we go. Again.
> So yeah, I think it's more the fact that most people who care enough to post on this board tend to be very vigilant about the health and well being of their pups/kittens.
> And, yes, my vet asks every single time what I'm feeding both the dog and the cat. If it's only been a week since they've seen us, they still ask if they are on the same kibble/food. They asked me this morning which resulted in a surprisingly positive discussion about the perils and benefits of raw.
> 
> Good luck with Tobe. I hope things have settled down for a bit.


Thanks Molly, I think our down slide is beginning though.....at least now though we have some solid support for us and Tobe.


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## Kibblelady

MollyWoppy said:


> I wonder too re. Today, at the vets, I was given a lecture about washing all raw food before giving it to my dog. The head vet tech said she wasn't against raw food, didn't condone it, but understood me wanting to give my dog natural fresh foods. But, the risk of salmonella had to be addressed. I nearly told her that it sounded like they'd got the memo from AVMA, but didn't want to ruin the "raw might be ok" moment.


The vet I saw saw yesterday was not even aware of the policy being voted on....she had no idea what I was talking about lol

I said on the original thread for this and on other lists and boards that it is time that is going to solve this....everything takes time, especially new ideas and more so with idea that have completely changed and flip flopped. Education (helping even just your personal vet along) and communication is what will help enormously with this. Have others seen the petitions being signed about this issue? Seen some of the comments in other areas about it or the copied emails being sent to the AVMA? Wow.....while many of them I am sure are just to the point and want to be heard many are also just nasty, insulting and just wrong... this is why I have been involved on these threads...if everyone wants to be heard about anything we have to use our heads and do it maturely and in a respectful manner, anything else is disregarded but still makes an impression, unfortunately a bad one.. Sorry this came to mind, Molly your comment just made me think of it again because while the vet tech had ill conceived ideas, she was talking to you about it and did not seem to insult you? This is the type of person that may be more interested and can be "saved." Know what I mean?


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## DaneMama

Most vets probably wont even know about this policy....I don't think many keep current with the AVMA much. I asked my three vets at work about it and they all looked at me crazy.


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## Kibblelady

DaneMama said:


> Most vets probably wont even know about this policy....I don't think many keep current with the AVMA much. I asked my three vets at work about it and they all looked at me crazy.


Lol I know. I said on another list that most vets will not even know about this unless they closely follow these things, are told about it or need to look the policy up for some reason (which is not typical lol) I found the list of polcies the AMVA has and wow there are a lot of them, some of them are pretty interesting and some just odd lol


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## InkedMarie

Each dog sees the holistic vet once yearly. She is the only vet who has asked what we feed, unless there's a problem. Boone had diarrhea for a few days a few months ago. We went to the regular vet, actually my vets partner and the first thing she said was "you don't feed him that raw stuff, do you" <eyeroll> At that point we didn't but i still knew enough to roll my eyes. Outside of the holistic vet, I don't talk nutrition with vets.


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## magicre

Kibblelady said:


> It was really just some evil humor, should have said so, sorry. I did say I assumed they were for well visits.
> 
> I *do* know that any of you getting these nasty, condescending comments should still be looking for another vet, those are just disrespectful I very much agree.
> 
> 
> Tobe saw a new vet yesterday...OMG I am in love! Amazing!! It is a hospital with two vets and we saw the woman. She was so thorough, compassionate and supportive. I am so friggin' happy. I will get into the whole visit on Tobe's thread in the health section but to comment on if she asked me about what I feed him yes/no. When I go to the vet with a sick animal I write everything like meds, supplements and diet on a sheet for them, they appreciate this. She did not talk about diet until very last. I had written he is currently eating NV Instinct with Evo canned (when I went to the store they did not have a small bag of Evo which is what my second choice was, Pinnacle was what I was hoping to find. Her statement "Oh, I see you are a purist" lol Oooo I reacted to that, not in a bad way but I tend to not like that label in any area of my life so I explained "me" to her and then she understood. She was familiar with Evo and preferred it within the two but has recommended a senior food for Tobe and for a specific reason having to do with his cancer, it's extent and the minerals involved (which is what I was thinking right off, but, wanted to consider what was suggested on this board...sorry, no offense guys but my choice was correct. He should not really be eating such high protein, reved up foods right now) However, she said leave it alone...Tobe has at the very most 1.5 mths left if that  It really is not going to matter much what I feed him.... Approx 3 minutes was spent on diet. No Science diet was suggested, nor any other product save her saying she liked Evo.
> 
> I do want to comment on something else about the thread. I do not believe I have been encouraging a kibble vs raw discussion, that has not been my goal not my interest at all. Other people common to this board have been and it was just done again... to the few who keep "blaming" me for this, please stop, it's not me doing it okay? I *know* people have animals that were not doing well on kibble now doing well on raw, I have also seen the opposite. I do not feel negatively about raw or speak badly of it. My feeding kibble as a base diet does not mean I think I have chosen "the best" I have simply chosen what is best for myself and my crew. When I say there is sound evidence showing the high level of pathogens in our food system, in meats, I am not living in lala land or misinformed and I am not saying raw is bad or crying "something is definitely going to happen." I am just balancing risk and talking about it. I hope this will not come up yet again?


i think it's difficult to have one foot in each country....and, whilst i know you are trying like hell to not step in it, in my opinion, and i mean no offense, i don't see how it can be avoided.

whilst i do not believe you are 'trying' to start a kibble vs raw thing, it's such a hot button for so many of us who did step into the raw world, became believers and now cannot imagine not feeding raw.....

unfortunately, once we, and i will speak for some of us here, not all...but once we experience discrimination......in my case, people literally have moved away from my dogs and me, as if i somehow had salmonella oozing from my pores...i've had my vets lovingly warn me of impending doom...and i know that each of us either does not talk about raw or we shout it to the rooftops......

on this and other forums, many of us feel constrained, restrained, and we've been called elitists when nothing could be further from the truth.

both sides are defensive with good reason, so forgive me if i, for one, wonder about what your motives are.

i've read you feed raw and yet, your dog is not on raw. do you do both?

you sell dog food, which is kibble....and yet you are knowledgeable about raw feeding to a degree....i can't say you are yet, because so far, i hear buzz words....

it's not a knock on you, i'm just trying to give you glimpse of what perception i have...and i would be pleased as punch if you turn out to be a genuine human being who doesn't believe we have cooties or are elitist....

we do belong to a group, though, and our experiences are unique to raw.....there can be no comparison.

so whenever something like this pops up, such as the AVMA...or Delta Society or yet another ahem, scientific study from MSU....whose credentials even i question.....we shudder. 

if there is a knee jerk reaction, it's because many of us have been told we cannot feed raw. we will kill our animals.

when we see a screen name, and here i shall speak for myself.....'kibble lady'...hard to not get a misperception....even though your name is cherri, you must have a reason for registering using this particular screen name....does this make any sense?

having said that, i'm very glad you love your new vet. right now, it's important to have a great relationship with your vet, as you are going through something none of us ever want to go through.


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## NewYorkDogue

magicre said:


> i think it's difficult to have one foot in each country....and, whilst i know you are trying like hell to not step in it, in my opinion, and i mean no offense, i don't see how it can be avoided.
> 
> whilst i do not believe you are 'trying' to start a kibble vs raw thing, it's such a hot button for so many of us who did step into the raw world, became believers and now cannot imagine not feeding raw.....
> 
> unfortunately, once we, and i will speak for some of us here, not all...but once we experience discrimination......in my case, people literally have moved away from my dogs and me, as if i somehow had salmonella oozing from my pores...i've had my vets lovingly warn me of impending doom...and i know that each of us either does not talk about raw or we shout it to the rooftops......
> 
> on this and other forums, many of us feel constrained, restrained, and we've been called elitists when nothing could be further from the truth.
> 
> both sides are defensive with good reason, so forgive me if i, for one, wonder about what your motives are.
> 
> i've read you feed raw and yet, your dog is not on raw. do you do both?
> 
> you sell dog food, which is kibble....and yet you are knowledgeable about raw feeding to a degree....i can't say you are yet, because so far, i hear buzz words....
> 
> it's not a knock on you, i'm just trying to give you glimpse of what perception i have...and i would be pleased as punch if you turn out to be a genuine human being who doesn't believe we have cooties or are elitist....
> 
> we do belong to a group, though, and our experiences are unique to raw.....there can be no comparison.
> 
> so whenever something like this pops up, such as the AVMA...or Delta Society or yet another ahem, scientific study from MSU....whose credentials even i question.....we shudder.
> 
> if there is a knee jerk reaction, it's because many of us have been told we cannot feed raw. we will kill our animals.
> 
> when we see a screen name, and here i shall speak for myself.....'kibble lady'...hard to not get a misperception....even though your name is cherri, you must have a reason for registering using this particular screen name....does this make any sense?
> 
> having said that, i'm very glad you love your new vet. right now, it's important to have a great relationship with your vet, as you are going through something none of us ever want to go through.


Just writing to say... what an eloquent response. Expressing what so many of us feel and experience; I love reading it through your oh-so perceptive eyes and mind.


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## InkedMarie

NewYorkDogue said:


> Just writing to say... what an eloquent response. Expressing what so many of us feel and experience; I love reading it through your oh-so perceptive eyes and mind.


No kidding, I wish I could write like that.


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## RedneckCowgirl

Agree with NYD and Marie


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## Liz

I want to be Magicre when I grow up.


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## MollyWoppy

re so often articulates what my brain wants to say, but my mouth can't find the words.


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## skadoosh

I don't have an issue with either raw or kibble or any other diet people choose to feed their dogs. If I might hijack the thread for a second.... 
I fed my dog raw-- she was listless, sick looking and her coat looked dull and shaggy (kind of odd considering she is a smooth coat dog). Her feces was constantly chocolate pudding and sometimes had mucous in it. I switched her back to kibbe and she is back to her old beautiful self. Why? I don't know and I don't care. If kibble works for her then that's what I'm using and I don't think anyone is offended by that...


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## RedneckCowgirl

Honestly I believe that raw can work for every single dog, and that it is best for every dog. However, I don't judge anyone (on here at least) for feeding raw, kibble, or whatever (reasonably obviously lol) because we are all here because we want to do better by our dogs.


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## magicre

liz, i'll let you know if and when i decide i'm going to grow up and then you can be me.LOL


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## magicre

skadoosh said:


> I don't have an issue with either raw or kibble or any other diet people choose to feed their dogs. If I might hijack the thread for a second....
> I fed my dog raw-- she was listless, sick looking and her coat looked dull and shaggy (kind of odd considering she is a smooth coat dog). Her feces was constantly chocolate pudding and sometimes had mucous in it. I switched her back to kibbe and she is back to her old beautiful self. Why? I don't know and I don't care. If kibble works for her then that's what I'm using and I don't think anyone is offended by that...


ok. and i'm glad you have found a solution for your dog...but, again, this is not about whether or not kibble is better or worse than raw.

this is about an organisation who is about to pass a policy for their organisation, its board, and its members, which include most vets, just as the ama includes all doctors.....

this policy will come out and be against raw feeding . they have cloaked themselves in a public safety concerning salmonella and for the good of all, will recommend that all vets and people in the veterinary industry advise against feeding raw diets.

this is wrong thinking and discriminatory.

kibble has nothing to do with this. nothing.

it is not at issue.

raw feeding is and those of us who are facing discrimination now are going to face more.....it may not stop us from feeding raw, and i am betting it won't....but it may well stop others who are leaning that way, but are afraid to go up against their vets.

many vets are not pro raw to begin with. delta society who had no policy against raw no longer allows therapy dogs who are fed a raw diet....this has hurt the public in that many great therapy dogs will never be able to do the job for which their owners lovingly trained them.

now, even though avma is not the be all end all organisation, it does have political power and can affect sales of pre made raws and it could influence those vets who are involved with the group.

i appreciate, skadoosh, that raw did not work for you. certainly you are free to feed whatever food you choose....

the difference is this.

no one will question or condemn that you feed kibble. the same is not true for those of us who chose raw.


----------



## skadoosh

magicre said:


> ok. and i'm glad you have found a solution for your dog...but, again, this is not about whether or not kibble is better or worse than raw.
> 
> this is about an organisation who is about to pass a policy for their organisation, its board, and its members, which include most vets, just as the ama includes all doctors.....
> 
> this policy will come out and be against raw feeding . they have cloaked themselves in a public safety concerning salmonella and for the good of all, will recommend that all vets and people in the veterinary industry advise against feeding raw diets.
> 
> this is wrong thinking and discriminatory.
> 
> kibble has nothing to do with this. nothing.
> 
> it is not at issue.
> 
> raw feeding is and those of us who are facing discrimination now are going to face more.....it may not stop us from feeding raw, and i am betting it won't....but it may well stop others who are leaning that way, but are afraid to go up against their vets.
> 
> many vets are not pro raw to begin with. delta society who had no policy against raw no longer allows therapy dogs who are fed a raw diet....this has hurt the public in that many great therapy dogs will never be able to do the job for which their owners lovingly trained them.
> 
> now, even though avma is not the be all end all organisation, it does have political power and can affect sales of pre made raws and it could influence those vets who are involved with the group.
> 
> i appreciate, skadoosh, that raw did not work for you. certainly you are free to feed whatever food you choose....
> 
> the difference is this.
> 
> no one will question or condemn that you feed kibble. the same is not true for those of us who chose raw.


Luckily I don't live in America. The country where they can dictate what one can feed their pets... 
People who feed raw discriminate against people who feed kibble...


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## skadoosh

RedneckCowgirl said:


> Honestly I believe that raw can work for every single dog, and that it is best for every dog. However, I don't judge anyone (on here at least) for feeding raw, kibble, or whatever (reasonably obviously lol) because we are all here because we want to do better by our dogs.


I think idealistically it is the best diet. I just know it didn't work for my dog (and TRUST me, I did it BY THE BOOK).


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## RedneckCowgirl

skadoosh said:


> Luckily I don't live in America. The country where they can dictate what one can feed their pets...
> People who feed raw discriminate against people who feed kibble...


Well, its not that they say we have to feed a certain way, but raw feeding is either unheard of or thought/talked about with some reserve. Out of say, 50 various people that I have ended up in a conversation about what my dogs eat, 5 or so have been open to feeding raw and had tons of questions, 30ish were like OMG YOU'RE KILLING YOUR DOGS (and your contagious. See that pores oozing salmonella comment made by Re :smile and the rest just changed the subject back to kibble (and out of those I did get a few who I hope ended up switching to a better kibble)


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## RedneckCowgirl

skadoosh said:


> I think idealistically it is the best diet. I just know it didn't work for my dog (and TRUST me, I did it BY THE BOOK).


Not arguing here, because I'm sure you did, and like I said earlier, I don't judge 

However, given the proper time to detox, find what proteins work/don't work for your dog, what supplements, etc I have never seen a raw diet not work. But like I said, that is neither here nor there, as long as your dog does well on what its on and its a decent quality kibble then I have no issues


----------



## tem_sat

magicre said:


> ok. and i'm glad you have found a solution for your dog...but, again, this is not about whether or not kibble is better or worse than raw.
> 
> this is about an organisation who is about to pass a policy for their organisation, its board, and its members, which include most vets, just as the ama includes all doctors.....
> 
> this policy will come out and be against raw feeding . they have cloaked themselves in a public safety concerning salmonella and for the good of all, will recommend that all vets and people in the veterinary industry advise against feeding raw diets.
> 
> this is wrong thinking and discriminatory.
> 
> kibble has nothing to do with this. nothing.
> 
> it is not at issue.
> 
> raw feeding is and those of us who are facing discrimination now are going to face more.....it may not stop us from feeding raw, and i am betting it won't....but it may well stop others who are leaning that way, but are afraid to go up against their vets.
> 
> many vets are not pro raw to begin with. delta society who had no policy against raw no longer allows therapy dogs who are fed a raw diet....this has hurt the public in that many great therapy dogs will never be able to do the job for which their owners lovingly trained them.
> 
> now, even though avma is not the be all end all organisation, it does have political power and can affect sales of pre made raws and it could influence those vets who are involved with the group.
> 
> i appreciate, skadoosh, that raw did not work for you. certainly you are free to feed whatever food you choose....
> 
> the difference is this.
> 
> no one will question or condemn that you feed kibble. the same is not true for those of us who chose raw.


All of the the above is so right.

For example, I certainly can imagine something such as a nice well positioned poster in many a vet's office "warning" clients about feeding raw meat. I can also imagine a nice graphic on, for example, the Hills site with a comparable warning.

Think about it...it's not much different than the user's "perceived" respect for, "Vets' #1 Choice for Their Own Pets" which is trademarked by Hills.


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## Kayota

skadoosh said:


> Luckily I don't live in America. The country where they can dictate what one can feed their pets...
> People who feed raw discriminate against people who feed kibble...


I don't care what people feed their dog...


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## magicre

america has become a nanny state as has been said in certain areas....

but if you want to drink unpasteurised milk, there is no law against it. you just cannot sell it.

no one in this country can ever dictate what is fed, only what is sold.

big difference.


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## Tobi

skadoosh said:


> Luckily I don't live in America. The country where they can dictate what one can feed their pets...
> *People who feed raw discriminate against people who feed kibble...*


:boink:

؟←maybe?

What is your basis on this? a few people on this forum that consistently bash kibble feeders, and they were dealt with. I for one, and know MANY on this forum that are more than happy to recommend good kibbles to people. It goes both ways, I've had many people that feed kibble tell me i'm outright nuts for feeding my dog this way... just because they think it's "gross" or expensive, or not the norm... I've never thought badly about anybody that feeds kibble, it's their choice, their dog, and their wallets, not mine.

Only a Sith deals in absolutes.


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## skadoosh

Tobi said:


> :boink:
> 
> ؟←maybe?
> 
> What is your basis on this? a few people on this forum that consistently bash kibble feeders, and they were dealt with. I for one, and know MANY on this forum that are more than happy to recommend good kibbles to people. It goes both ways, I've had many people that feed kibble tell me i'm outright nuts for feeding my dog this way... just because they think it's "gross" or expensive, or not the norm... I've never thought badly about anybody that feeds kibble, it's their choice, their dog, and their wallets, not mine.
> 
> Only a Sith deals in absolutes.


Maybe bashing is the incorrect word use. How about a false sense of superiority....? Like recommending kibble to people is some kind of favor as they are much to ignorant to make the decision to go on raw. 
Raw is whole and natural and I like the idea of that very much. So much, in fact, that I decided to try it. 
It didn't work. I listed off all of the reasons and raw feeders had an excuse for EVERY SINGLE ONE OF THE REASONS I DECIDED AGAINST RAW. They weren't even particularly factual, very anectdotal. 
I DO in fact want to feed raw. BUT I would like some professional canine nutritionist to develop a form of guideline to follow to feed so that I can refer back to it. The whole 80 10 10 thing was much to vague for my liking...
My dog did not do well. I did it the best I knew how. A lot of research, a lot of questioning. A lot of communication with people that have used it long term. It didn't work for my dog. MY dog. 
I don't bash raw, I just am not going to have my dog on a PMR diet when she is doing so poorly. 
I believe people should feed their dogs what they want... I DON'T believe a raw diet is superior in every situation.


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## Caty M

skadoosh said:


> Maybe bashing is the incorrect word use. How about a false sense of superiority....? Like recommending kibble to people is some kind of favor as they are much to ignorant to make the decision to go on raw.
> Raw is whole and natural and I like the idea of that very much. So much, in fact, that I decided to try it.
> It didn't work. I listed off all of the reasons and raw feeders had an excuse for EVERY SINGLE ONE OF THE REASONS I DECIDED AGAINST RAW. They weren't even particularly factual, very anectdotal.
> I DO in fact want to feed raw. BUT I would like some professional canine nutritionist to develop a form of guideline to follow to feed so that I can refer back to it. The whole 80 10 10 thing was much to vague for my liking...
> My dog did not do well. I did it the best I knew how. A lot of research, a lot of questioning. A lot of communication with people that have used it long term. It didn't work for my dog. MY dog.
> I don't bash raw, I just am not going to have my dog on a PMR diet when she is doing so poorly.
> I believe people should feed their dogs what they want... I DON'T believe a raw diet is superior in every situation.


"By the book" doesn't work for all dogs. It works for most dogs. It's a guideline... not an absolute "YOU MUST DO IT THIS WAY." Know your dog. I know my sheltie needs more bone than 10%, and so I adjusted it to his particular needs. My younger IG needs more fat in her diet. So far the older IG seems to be doing just fine on the stated guidelines.

Let's not turn this into yet another Raw vs kibble debate. It has nothing to do with the topic of this thread, and at this point is just beating a dead horse. Please, let's keep the discussion relating to the AVMA vote.


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## skadoosh

Caty M said:


> "By the book" doesn't work for all dogs. It works for most dogs. It's a guideline... not an absolute "YOU MUST DO IT THIS WAY." Know your dog. I know my sheltie needs more bone than 10%, and so I adjusted it to his particular needs. My younger IG needs more fat in her diet. So far the older IG seems to be doing just fine on the stated guidelines.
> 
> Let's not turn this into yet another Raw vs kibble debate. It has nothing to do with the topic of this thread, and at this point is just beating a dead horse. Please, let's keep the discussion relating to the AVMA vote.


I was responding mainly to other people's post as opposed to the original thread (I'm Canadian so it doesn't affect me at all). 
As I said before: feeding raw is much to vague. Not enough information (that isn't anectdotal) nor is there enough research. When there are some facts and research studies done, as well as a feeding guideline or book, then I will consider trying it again. 
People say "it is what wolves ate" everyone's like gee that makes sense. Not to me. My dog isn't a wolf eating wild animals. My dog is a dog eating domesticated livestock that are full of nasties (my husband worked in the pork industry and he can tell you). Now that may be in kibble too but at least kibble is cooked... that's my comfort. Might be illogical but it comforts me personally.


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## magicre

skadoosh said:


> Maybe bashing is the incorrect word use. How about a false sense of superiority....? Like recommending kibble to people is some kind of favor as they are much to ignorant to make the decision to go on raw.
> Raw is whole and natural and I like the idea of that very much. So much, in fact, that I decided to try it.
> It didn't work. I listed off all of the reasons and raw feeders had an excuse for EVERY SINGLE ONE OF THE REASONS I DECIDED AGAINST RAW. They weren't even particularly factual, very anectdotal.
> I DO in fact want to feed raw. BUT I would like some professional canine nutritionist to develop a form of guideline to follow to feed so that I can refer back to it. The whole 80 10 10 thing was much to vague for my liking...
> My dog did not do well. I did it the best I knew how. A lot of research, a lot of questioning. A lot of communication with people that have used it long term. It didn't work for my dog. MY dog.
> I don't bash raw, I just am not going to have my dog on a PMR diet when she is doing so poorly.
> I believe people should feed their dogs what they want... I DON'T believe a raw diet is superior in every situation.


we have managed to go 15 pages without this thread degenerating. i don't think this is appropriate to the discussion.

the avma has nothing to do with what you feed YOUR dog or what you don't feed your dog.

they are not a legislative body and cannot create law.

this discussion has nothing to do with whether or not your dog did or did not do well on raw.

avma is a body of people who are about to pass a policy that may affect raw feeders, not kibble feeders.

again, this discussion has nothing to do with kibble vs. raw, whether one is better or not better than the other or whether we are superiour or not superiour as raw feeders...

this discussion only refers to policy by a political group who has power and special interests.

please do not muddy these waters with your personal experience....if you like, start a different thread about what you went through, but what you're posting is irrelevant and inappropriate to THIS discussion.


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## Tobi

skadoosh said:


> *Maybe bashing is the incorrect word use. How about a false sense of superiority....? Like recommending kibble to people is some kind of favor as they are much to ignorant to make the decision to go on raw.*
> Raw is whole and natural and I like the idea of that very much. So much, in fact, that I decided to try it.
> It didn't work. I listed off all of the reasons and raw feeders had an excuse for EVERY SINGLE ONE OF THE REASONS I DECIDED AGAINST RAW. They weren't even particularly factual, very anectdotal.
> I DO in fact want to feed raw. BUT I would like some professional canine nutritionist to develop a form of guideline to follow to feed so that I can refer back to it. The whole 80 10 10 thing was much to vague for my liking...
> My dog did not do well. I did it the best I knew how. A lot of research, a lot of questioning. A lot of communication with people that have used it long term. It didn't work for my dog. MY dog.
> I don't bash raw, I just am not going to have my dog on a PMR diet when she is doing so poorly.
> I believe people should feed their dogs what they want... I DON'T believe a raw diet is superior in every situation.


Make a search on this site about "what kibble should i choose" or "help me decide which kibble"... but of course, every raw feeder obviously thinks they are superior in every single way to a "kibble feeder" and they are obviously too stupid to make an informed decision on their own...

the rest of your post... good for you.


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## DaneMama

I think what has needed to been said has in fact been said in this discussion and debate. Bravo to all for staying positive and constructive. 

Let us end this good discussion on a high note :cheers:


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