# why not use a medium grade dog food for a base and add meat?



## hayduke (Mar 26, 2010)

I have used kirkland dog food ( generally considered medium grade and a good value at $.60/#)for 30 years without problems for 2 golden retrievers and a gordon setter. I just got a 1yo english setter,whose breeder recommended iams. I was shocked to read the low quality of the ingredients.(corn)
So I started reading about dog food. It seems the best rated foods have lots of high quality protein,(chicken,lamb,etc.)but they cost say $2 a pound or more.

Why not start with a medium grade food like kirkland lamb and rice and add your own real chicken(breasts are $1/# on sale sometimes) or beef ($2 /# on sale for flank steak)?

That way you could avoid the hassle of adding all the necessary nutrients needed if you were starting from scratch, but would get the benefit of high quality meat.

If this has been overly discussed before, I am sorry, and just a pointer to such a discussion would be appreciated.


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## SaltyDog (Mar 10, 2010)

Absolutely no reason you can't, but you do change the balance of the food


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## xxshaelxx (Mar 8, 2010)

I am no expert, but I just wanted to point out the fact that everyone here says dry food and raw food digests at different rates, and when mixed together, can cause more problems and health issues than would be wise to deal with.​


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## DaneMama (Jun 27, 2008)

The reason why it's not a good idea because raw or whole meats digest at a different rate and require different enzymes to digest. Due to this it can cause skme digestive upset in some dogs. You can definitely see how it goes and decide from there!


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## hayduke (Mar 26, 2010)

I was going to cook the chicken and steak of course. Does that still mean "raw"?
And I was also going to add cooked eggs,probably the cheapest source of good protein at 2 cents a gram. We have also given our dogs cheese without problems. And they all like Tofu,but I have read maybe that is not good.
For carbs, we always have rice,potatoes,oatmeal,carrots,etc.

But I am not sure of all the other "essential " nutrients for dogs . I suppose vitamins,calcium, fish oil are also in the house and would not be difficult.


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## DaneMama (Jun 27, 2008)

Why cook the meat? Cooking destroys most nutrients found in meats and dogs are equipped to handle raw meats very well (it's their natural diet). The only reason to feed carbs to dogs is to add bulk to their stool, not for nutrition because they cannot derive nutrition from them.


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## RCTRIPLEFRESH5 (Feb 11, 2010)

xxshaelxx said:


> I am no expert, but I just wanted to point out the fact that everyone here says dry food and raw food digests at different rates, and when mixed together, can cause more problems and health issues than would be wise to deal with.​


i agree with this. also the whole point of kibble, is that its CONVENIENT. and any idiot can buy a kibble, and pour it in. also, all you really need is meat in a dog food, so if you were buying the meat anyway, there;s no reason to add it to medium dog food. just buy a little extra meats and feed them by themselves.

evo can be purchased for around 1.91 a pound which is decent for convenience.


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## g00dgirl (Nov 18, 2009)

No, cooked meat is not "raw" as we feed it.
Adding raw meat to a kibble fed dog's diet is better than nothing. They will benefit from getting some "real" food. Just do not feed kibble and raw in the same meal. Raw is digested (and needs to be digested) much faster than kibble so they should be fed at least a few hours apart. I would probably feed raw as the first meal of the day so that their digestive tract has had all night to clear out.


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## hayduke (Mar 26, 2010)

This is all very interesting.

have been reading more dog food reviews,,and most of the ones available here are in the low end.

All the really cheap ones are bad, but many of the higher priced are not very good either.

Danemama....you dont worry about bacteria in chicken and beef? What essential nutrients are destroyed by cooking? And the from-scratch recipes I have seen all recommend around 1/3 meat,1/3 grain or potato, 1/3 vegetables, no?


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## g00dgirl (Nov 18, 2009)

Why do these posts sound so familiar?


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## DaneMama (Jun 27, 2008)

hayduke said:


> Danemama....you dont worry about bacteria in chicken and beef? What essential nutrients are destroyed by cooking? And the from-scratch recipes I have seen all recommend around 1/3 meat,1/3 grain or potato, 1/3 vegetables, no?


I don't worry about bacteria one bit because the anatomy of the dog and their digestive system are built to handle high bacteria loads. We have fed our dogs raw meats for years without a single problem. Cooking destroys essential enzymes and nutrients.

Of course homecooked diets are going to include 2/3 plant matter (starch and veggies) because your dog needs something to add bulk to their stool so they don't have constant diarrhea, which is what will happen if all you feed is meat exclusively. The reason why we don't see constant diarrhea when feeding an exclusively raw diet is because we feed raw bones which act as a constipating factor and adds bulk to their stool.


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## hayduke (Mar 26, 2010)

when i fed my golden bones it wore her teeth away.we dont do that anymore


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## rannmiller (Jun 27, 2008)

What kind of bones?


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## Gia (May 29, 2009)

I've known plenty of dogs that have lived a long life eating low to medium grade dry dog food mixed with fresh, real foods. Meat, cooked or raw, will always be a good thing for your dog to eat. I have mixed raw meat with kibble on a regular basis with nothing but great results. I also tried cooking the meat, first, but I didn't notice any benefit from it and it takes longer! :wink:

There is nothing wrong with Kirkland brand food, as long as your dog digests it well and has good health.


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## CorgiPaws (Mar 31, 2009)

When it comes to my dog's diet I have a longer list of things I DON'T want to see in it than things I do. Adding more meat is a good idea but it doesn't take away the ingredients of the lower quality kibble. that being said, Kirkland isn't too bad actually. Definately leaps and bounds better than anything in its price range.


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## hayduke (Mar 26, 2010)

the grocer had whole chickens for 67c/lb and potatoes for 40c/lb today so we cooked up 20lbs of chicken and 20 lbs of starch for about the price of the worst possible commercial dog food....what else should we add? vitamins? fish oil? calcium?other supplements?


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## PUNKem733 (Jun 12, 2009)

hayduke said:


> the grocer had whole chickens for 67c/lb and potatoes for 40c/lb today so we cooked up 20lbs of chicken and 20 lbs of starch for about the price of the worst possible commercial dog food....what else should we add? vitamins? fish oil? calcium?other supplements?


If you wouldn't have cooked the meat, and forget the potatoes, you wouldn't need any supplements.:wink:


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## CorgiPaws (Mar 31, 2009)

hayduke said:


> the grocer had whole chickens for 67c/lb and potatoes for 40c/lb today so we cooked up 20lbs of chicken and 20 lbs of starch for about the price of the worst possible commercial dog food....what else should we add? vitamins? fish oil? calcium?other supplements?


Cooking the meat is killing nutrients. 
Adding the starch is just pumping in the carbs- CARBOHYDRATES ARE NOT NEEDED, they're actually the root of a LOT of problems, and I recommend cutting that right away. 
If you stick to just mostly meat, some bones, and some organs from a variety of animals, and feed it all raw, there will be no supplements needed and you'll be doing the best possible thing for your dog.


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## RCTRIPLEFRESH5 (Feb 11, 2010)

hayduke said:


> the grocer had whole chickens for 67c/lb and potatoes for 40c/lb today so we cooked up 20lbs of chicken and 20 lbs of starch for about the price of the worst possible commercial dog food....what else should we add? vitamins? fish oil? calcium?other supplements?


seeing the ingridients seperately makes me sad i feed kibble. oh well.


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## CorgiPaws (Mar 31, 2009)

RCTRIPLEFRESH5 said:


> oh well.


 I'm sorry, but I can't wrap my head around this mentality when it comes to the well being of pets. The "I know what I'm doing is damaging but I don't care enough to fix it." way of thinking just makes me SO sad for the animals trapped in the middle of it.


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## PUNKem733 (Jun 12, 2009)

RCTRIPLEFRESH5 said:


> seeing the ingridients seperately makes me sad i feed canadie. oh well.


Fixed. :biggrin:


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## hayduke (Mar 26, 2010)

CorgiPaws said:


> Cooking the meat is killing nutrients.
> Adding the starch is just pumping in the carbs- CARBOHYDRATES ARE NOT NEEDED, they're actually the root of a LOT of problems, and I recommend cutting that right away.
> If you stick to just mostly meat, some bones, and some organs from a variety of animals, and feed it all raw, there will be no supplements needed and you'll be doing the best possible thing for your dog.


Could you point to some evidence that cooking is harmful?

I realize that a wild dog doesnt eat grain, but they live to age 4. we need carbs for energy. Why are they harmful in dogs?


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## RCTRIPLEFRESH5 (Feb 11, 2010)

hayduke said:


> Could you point to some evidence that cooking is harmful?
> 
> I realize that a wild dog doesnt eat grain, but they live to age 4. we need carbs for energy. Why are they harmful in dogs?


wild dogs live to be 8-11.
they also live in the wild.....


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## DaneMama (Jun 27, 2008)

hayduke said:


> Could you point to some evidence that cooking is harmful?


Digestion rate and efficiency for kibble (cooked food) is ~35-40%.

Digestion rate and efficiency for raw meat, bone and organ is ~95%.

The fact that vitamins and minerals have to be added to kibble to make it adequate nutrition is proof right there that cooking destroys nutrients.

On a completely raw diet, vitamins and minerals are not needed if there is enough variety of meat sources (chicken, turkey, beef, fish, game meats, pork, etc) and you feed mostly raw muscle meats, some raw bone and some raw organ. With feeding meat, bones and organs from a variety of meat sources, all the nutrients a dog needs are provided.



> I realize that a wild dog doesnt eat grain, but they live to age 4. we need carbs for energy. Why are they harmful in dogs?


Wild dogs don't live to be older because of the dangers of living in the wild. Famine, predators, adverse weather, etc are the reasons why wild dogs (or any wild animal) doesn't live to it's full life potential...not because of it's diet. Wild animals fed their natural diet in captivity live much much longer than their wild counterparts.

You cannot compare dogs and humans. We are so genetically different that it is illogical to do so, it's like saying apples are grown on orange trees...it's just not possible. 

Grains are actually not ideal in our, human diet since it's not something a lot of people can tolerate. More and more people are finding out that they are allergic to grains, wheat or gluten just like dogs.


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## RawFedDogs (Jun 16, 2008)

hayduke said:


> Could you point to some evidence that cooking is harmful?


Google the words *cooking nutrients* and you will find plenty of answers to that question.



> I realize that a wild dog doesnt eat grain, but they live to age 4. we need carbs for energy. Why are they harmful in dogs?


Dogs bodies aren't designed to digest carbs. Besides not producing the necessary enzymes to digest them, their intestinal tract is much too short for proper digestion of carbs. Their short intestinal tract is designed to get food through and out of the body quickly before there is time for large bacterial outbreak. Their intestines are smooth inside in order to allow the contents to quickly pass through. 

Omnivores and herbivores, on the other hand, have long intestines with a lot of wrinkles to slow down the progress of the contents and to allow them to ferment and properly digest. 

Omnivores and herbivores depend on carbs for energy. Dogs and other carnivores utilize fat for their energy. Utilizing fat makes carbs unnecessary.

BUT to answer your question, carbs aren't necessarily harmful to dogs so much as they are just not helpful. It's a waste of time and energy to eat them and takes up valuable stomach space that would be better served by meat, bones, and organs which their bodies are designed to digest and extract nutrients from.


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## CorgiPaws (Mar 31, 2009)

hayduke said:


> Could you point to some evidence that cooking is harmful?





> First, the act of cooking alters the proteins, vitamins, fats, and minerals in a food...Cooking can alter fats to the point of being toxic and carcinogenic ...and cooked proteins can be altered to the point where they cause allergic reactions whereas raw proteins do not.


SOURCE: Myths About Raw: Are cooked diets a better alternative to raw?




hayduke said:


> I realize that a wild dog doesnt eat grain, but they live to age 4. we need carbs for energy. Why are they harmful in dogs?


Yes, PEOPLE do need carbs for energy, although they still shouldn't be a huge part of even our omnivore diet. Dogs are not people and have different nutritional needs than we do, and have no need for carbs at all- let alone the extremely high amount of carbs found in commercial dog food. Many diseases and disorders thrive off of the carbs in your pets diet, and by eliminating them, you're giving your pet a much higher chance of living a longer, healthier life. 




> ....High amounts of simple carbohydrates and sugars are known to suppress the immune system. If this is the case, though, one could wonder how a diet high in grain affects our pets—overstimulation of the immune system due to high concentrations of glucose from the grain? Perhaps this is why many pets suffer "allergies" while on grain!


SOURCE: Myths About Raw: Do dogs really need carbohydrates?




ETA: I don't think it's fair at all to compare the lifespan of the wild dog and your family pet based only on diet. Think about it for a second. Your dog has a CONSTANT food source. Your dog has shelter. Your dog is protected from extreme elements. Your dog gets vet care. Your dog is (should be!) protected from heartworm. There are SO many variables that play into lifespn, but even so, there's a lot that can be learned about our domesticated friends by watching their wild relatives. Kibble wasn't even around until about 50 years ago, and that's not NEARLY enough time for any species to evolve any aspect of its genetic makeup, let alone turn omnivore from carnivore.


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## hayduke (Mar 26, 2010)

thank you all.
that is very informative.
i have fed my dogs raw steak,but i have not liked the raw chicken idea much.aside from contamination, removing the bones would be much harder,no?

and i thought the addition of carbs like potato ,broccoli,carrots actually prevented the poop problems that meats can cause


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## RCTRIPLEFRESH5 (Feb 11, 2010)

danemama08 said:


> Digestion rate and efficiency for kibble (cooked food) is ~35-40%.
> 
> Digestion rate and efficiency for raw meat, bone and organ is ~95%.
> 
> ...


the real question is...do wild dogs fed in captivity live to be longer than domesticated dogs fed purina, or vegan diets. as of now, i dont think so,so why feed raw? i agree raw is best, but there is no evidence in my opinion.


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## RCTRIPLEFRESH5 (Feb 11, 2010)

hayduke said:


> thank you all.
> that is very informative.
> i have fed my dogs raw steak,but i have not liked the raw chicken idea much.aside from contamination, removing the bones would be much harder,no?
> 
> and i thought the addition of carbs like potato ,broccoli,carrots actually prevented the poop problems that meats can cause


dogs have the cleanest mouths around. their mouths KILL BACTERIA. humans have some potty mouths both literally and metaphorically.

bones are good for dogs,and help kill plaque, and tarter, found on their teeth.

does anyone have a good site for dental boens that would be good for kibble feeders? i dont use rawhifde, and those bullysticks look thin and lame no offense.


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## hayduke (Mar 26, 2010)

i know dogs mouths have much less bacteria than humans, but modern poultry is contaminated,and even if you believe dogs cant get salmonella,ecoli,or giardia, YOU can.

i dont think anyone thinks dogs should have chicken bones.


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## CorgiPaws (Mar 31, 2009)

hayduke said:


> i have fed my dogs raw steak,but i have not liked the raw chicken idea much.aside from contamination, removing the bones would be much harder,no?


There's no need to remove the bone! In fact, it's important to leave it in. 
All the myths about bones being dangerous are about weight bearing bones of large mammals, or cooked bones. NEVER cook any kind of bone for your dog. Ever. 
Chicken bones are actually the easiest bones for dogs to start with. Mine get chicken quarters (bone-in, obviously) every day. In fact, most of the bone content in my dog's diet is from chicken and turkey.



hayduke said:


> and i thought the addition of carbs like potato ,broccoli,carrots actually prevented the poop problems that meats can cause


That would be a myth that a lot of people follow. In fact, it's the raw bone that will naturally and species appropriately solve those issues. Bone heavy meals are a quick, natural, effective fix to loose stools. 



RCTRIPLEFRESH5 said:


> the real question is...do wild dogs fed in captivity live to be longer than domesticated dogs fed purina, or vegan diets.


It is very ignorant to base the lifespan only on the diet. There's many many more factors that come into play. 
Vet care.
shelter. 
constant food source.
heartworm prevention. 
protection from the elements.
treatment of disease. 




RCTRIPLEFRESH5 said:


> ,so why feed raw? i agree raw is best


You answered your own question. Why feed raw? Because it's the BEST thing you can do for your dog. I can't comprehend how someone can recognize that, but not care to do it. I love my dogs so much, I can't imagine not trying to do what I admit to knowing what's best for them. 



RCTRIPLEFRESH5 said:


> bones are good for dogs,and help kill plaque, and tarter, found on their teeth.


Bone don't kill anything. I'm not sure how that made sense to say... it just scrapes it off. 



RCTRIPLEFRESH5 said:


> does anyone have a good site for dental boens that would be good for kibble feeders? i dont use rawhifde, and those bullysticks look thin and lame no offense.


Raw bones. Beef ribs are good. You don't have to be a raw feeder to use raw bones as chews for dental health. 
And "no offense" is what people say to justify statements they know sound rude. :wink:


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## CorgiPaws (Mar 31, 2009)

hayduke said:


> i know dogs mouths have much less bacteria than humans, but modern poultry is contaminated,and even if you believe dogs cant get salmonella,ecoli,or giardia, YOU can.


This is a common concern, and really it's common sense, just follow the same meat handling precautions that you would for yourself. Wash your hands after handling. Clean surfaces after preparation. 
How is preparing a raw chicken any more dangerous if it's for your dog than yourself? I feed on a rug that after every meal gets folded and put away. I'm not about to lick that rug, or touch it and then rub my eyes or mouth. No danger at all. I also feed outside if the weather is good enough. 



hayduke said:


> i dont think anyone thinks dogs should have chicken bones.


Cooked chicken bones, no. Raw is perfectly fine.


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## hayduke (Mar 26, 2010)

"Cooked chicken bones, no. Raw is perfectly fine."

although i am eager to learn and would try many things in an experimental way, this one could be fatal (perforated GI tract),so you will need to prove it beyond ANY doubt. Of course I WISH it were true,it would make serving chicken so easy. 

is there anything in the 6# raw chickens that i bought yesterday for 67c/lb that SHOULD be removed?


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## CorgiPaws (Mar 31, 2009)

RCTRIPLEFRESH5 said:


> i agree raw is best, but there is no evidence in my opinion.





> Myth: THERE IS NO SCIENTIFIC RESEARCH TO BACK RAW DIETS.
> 
> The implication here is that because there is "no scientific research" performed by institutions like the American Veterinary Medicine Association (AVMA), raw diets should not be fed. This 'no scientific research' declaration is a cop-out claim that has been used to "debunk" raw diets and suppress the truth. *But one must realize that there is NO evidence whatsoever to prove that kibbled, processed foods are good for your pets. ...... No research has been done to determine the long-term effects of feeding kibble, nor to determine if it is actually healthy for your dog* (it is just assumed healthy because it has passed a 6 month feeding trial, and then manufacturers falsely advertise their product as healthy.).
> 
> ...


Article shortened and cut to be short enough to post
SOURCE: Myths About Raw: Is there scientific research to back raw diets?


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## RawFedDogs (Jun 16, 2008)

RCTRIPLEFRESH5 said:


> i agree raw is best, but there is no evidence in my opinion.


Go back and read and re-read the threads in the raw forum and in other forums. There is evidence posted regularly about the health of raw fed dogs. People are posting all the time, "my dog had (one of a million different health problems) while on kibble and it disappeared almost immediately when I switched him to raw." How many people talk about the teeth, gums, coat, energy level, clear eyes, overall well being of their dogs after switching? Many do. How many people talk about digestive problems disappearing after switching? Many do. Evidence abounds everywhere if you will just take off your blinders.


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## CorgiPaws (Mar 31, 2009)

hayduke said:


> "Cooked chicken bones, no. Raw is perfectly fine."
> 
> although i am eager to learn and would try many things in an experimental way, this one could be fatal (perforated GI tract),so you will need to prove it beyond ANY doubt. Of course I WISH it were true,it would make serving chicken so easy.





> This is one of the biggest myths of all time! Raw chicken bones are fantastic for your dog. They are soft enough so that they bend easily, and break well for the dog to digest.
> On the other hand, cooked chicken bones can be a problem, and I recommend that you DON'T feed COOKED chicken bones.
> 
> Some people are worried about their dog choking on bones. While such incidents are very rare (far more incidents occur with dogs choking on kibble), I encourage the feeding of bigger portions of meaty bones, or if available, whole carcasses, such as whole chickens or rabbits.


SOURCE: Raw Feeding FAQ

Being a natural diet, bones are digested before they ever get far enough in the tract to cause a problem. I have to laugh at the people whose dogs swallow a raw bone, get rushed to the vet, and x rays confirm there's a whole bone in the stomach, and thus the owner pays hundreds of dollars for surgery to remove said bone. Well of COURSE there's a bone. The dog just swallowed it! It hasn't digested yet. 
My dogs swallow bones every single day. In fact my boxer has swallowed an entire chicken leg quarter, and brought it back up to better crunch up the bones. I've never had a problem. 



hayduke said:


> the 6# raw chickens that i bought yesterday for 67c/lb that SHOULD be removed?


No, the entire chicken can and should be fed. 


The reason I've taken a copy and paste approach to this thread is to show that my opinions aren't just "because I say so" and that there is a whole huge community out there feeding raw and being amazed at the results.... and quite frankly, putting the entire article in my own words would just take too long!:biggrin:


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## hayduke (Mar 26, 2010)

couldnt a splintered chicken bone get stuck or poke a hole even before it gets to the stomach acid? like esophagus

btw,the cut and paste is good


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## RCTRIPLEFRESH5 (Feb 11, 2010)

i said raw sounds the best, not that i am 100 percent sure it is. but that personal feud aside...
im not just basing things on diet, a lot of dogs fed purina are in loving homes. a lot of people feed purina,science diet,etc, because they feel they are great foods. purina dog chow claims to extend your dogs lives lol. just because someone is misinformed doesnt mean they dont have a loving home!

there is just as much research saying purina is good,as their is saying raw is good. ive heard of many raw fed dogs dying sooner than many kibble fed dogs.


rfd: there are those posts from a lot of people. ive seen people claim orijen, taste of the wild, grain free diets, etc all cured their dogs of allergies, and problems. there is no conclusive evidence that raw is the best way.


not to sound like a moron, but what are raw bones and where do i buy them? also wont that digest at a different rate than kibble.


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## RCTRIPLEFRESH5 (Feb 11, 2010)

hayduke said:


> couldnt a splintered chicken bone get stuck or poke a hole even before it gets to the stomach acid? like esophagus
> 
> btw,the cut and paste is good


yes,that's why you dont cook it.


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## CorgiPaws (Mar 31, 2009)

RCTRIPLEFRESH5 said:


> not to sound like a moron, but what are raw bones and where do i buy them? also wont that digest at a different rate than kibble.


Raw bones are just that: raw bones. 
I'm assuming you're looking into them for the sake of dental benefits. For that, I recommend beef ribs. They don't have much meat on them, not enough to be concerned with anyway, and they're dense enough that they scrape the teeth chean, but too dense for most dogs to eat right through them. They are not dense enough to break teeth. 

I don't recommend feeding them WITH kibble, but maybe a few hours apart.


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## CorgiPaws (Mar 31, 2009)

hayduke said:


> couldnt a splintered chicken bone get stuck or poke a hole even before it gets to the stomach acid? like esophagus
> 
> btw,the cut and paste is good


This is why you feed size appropriate bones. Rule of thumb is to feed bone in cuts bigger than your dog's mouth.The bone is INSIDE of the meat, and the meat kind of cushions it if that makes any sense. Most raw feeders also stay clear of oddly cut bones that have sharp edges poking out of the meat. 

I'll use things like beef ribs as chews, and those area safe size as well.


ETA: Just felt the need to point out that dogs choke and die from swallowing kibble the wrong way.... I don't have an exact statistic to throw out there, but probably about as many as have issues with RAW bones


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## RawFedDogs (Jun 16, 2008)

hayduke said:


> couldnt a splintered chicken bone get stuck or poke a hole even before it gets to the stomach acid? like esophagus


It might possibly could but it never does. I think the esophagus is a much tougher organ than many people think. It's not all that easy to perforate.

I have been feeding a raw diet to my dogs for 8 years and have never had a problem. I have been a member of a board for 8 years that has 17,000 members and have heard of an esophagus perforation ONE time. Most of these people have multiple dogs so I would say it's just not a problem. 

I don't think anyone on this board has ever had a problem like this. I worry more about a lot of other things than I do a perforated esophagus. Things to worry about are: bloat, cancer, broken bones, wild animal attacks, poison, being shot by a hunter, being hit by a car or truck, getting a serious cut, etc. Sooooo .... spend your time and energy worrying about truly serious things, not an esophagus perforated by a raw chicken bone.


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## hayduke (Mar 26, 2010)

i dont think i can give him chicken bones.

what would you substitute for that nutritional and digestive function?


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## CorgiPaws (Mar 31, 2009)

hayduke said:


> i dont think i can give him chicken bones.
> 
> what would you substitute for that nutritional and digestive function?


 there is no acceptable alternative. Why can't you give him chicken bones? Do you give dry biscuits? Those can break sharp. They can choke on kibble. They can choke drinking water. There is no more danger with bones than with kibble.


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## hayduke (Mar 26, 2010)

CorgiPaws said:


> there is no acceptable alternative. Why can't you give him chicken bones? Do you give dry biscuits? Those can break sharp. They can choke on kibble. They can choke drinking water. There is no more danger with bones than with kibble.


there is no comparison between the sharnpess of a chicken bone and dry biscuit....that is lunacy. even more crazy with the water comparison. and the kibble.


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## Ania's Mommy (Feb 8, 2009)

Dogs weren't really built to chew and enjoy their food like we humans do. Eating to a dog is a perfunctory task. They eat to live. The way a lot of dogs (probably most, actually) eat is by crunching a few times and swallowing their food mostly whole. With kibble, there is a fair amount of actual inhaling that goes on. So choking on kibble is acually not at all far-fetched.

I posted this some time ago, but I hope that it will shed some light on the bone issue:

Pre-raw, I always heard that chicken bones were the worse thing for dogs because they splinter really easily and could "stab" their digestive track. So you should only feed big 'ol beef or pork bones. This is wrong.

Take a cooked chicken drumstick bone and try to break it in half. Somewhat easy, right? Also, it's really pokey. Now try to take a raw drumstick and do the same thing. Not so easy, right? So the info about not feeding cooked chicken bones is entirely correct. However, this is just not true for raw ones. Raw chicken bones are excellent and safe for dogs.

Regarding the "big 'ol" beef and pork bones, the info that I had about them being great for dogs was wrong too. They will chip & splinter if cooked similar to the cooked chicken bones. In addition, really large, dense, weight baring bones can injure your dogs teeth. Also, many steaks (t-bone for instance) are sliced by the butcher creating small, pointy bones. Those are also somewhat dangerous. That's not to say that raw beef and pork bones aren't good for dogs. You just have to be more selective. Ribs are great. 

Richelle


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## PUNKem733 (Jun 12, 2009)

hayduke said:


> there is no comparison between the sharnpess of a chicken bone and dry biscuit....that is lunacy. even more crazy with the water comparison. and the kibble.




Yes there is. My dog sometimes will stop mid way in taking a drink, and hack and cough a couple of times.


I really am glad I don't have the mindset of some people that kibble is better than raw, or that raw is not only not good for a dog, but that it can be harmful. 

*SHAKES HEAD*


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## DaneMama (Jun 27, 2008)

If raw were as harmful as people think or actually if all the myths about raw were true, thousands and thousands of dogs would be dead by now. I know some raw feeders who have never had a problem in 20 years. If all the myths were true, we wouldn't be feeding our dogs raw and recommending it so highly to you. 

It's up to you whether or not to believe that raw works wonders, because it most certainly does...you just have to witness it for yourself.


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## RawFedDogs (Jun 16, 2008)

hayduke said:


> there is no comparison between the sharnpess of a chicken bone and dry biscuit....that is lunacy. even more crazy with the water comparison. and the kibble.


Just how hard headed are you? Obviously you have never fed a chicken bone in your life. I have fed over 8,000 meals that contained chicken bones without a problem. I know people who have fed many times more meals than I have without a problem. So don't sit there and try to tell us that they are dangerous when you haven't fed any. All you did is read a web page written by someone who also has never fed a chicken bone that they are dangerous.


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## Samba (Mar 29, 2010)

If you are not familiar with raw feeding, I realize that mostly the myths prevail in popular knowledge. It is worth it to your dog for you to learn about it.

I just fed raw chicken to all my dogs tonight. I spend the bulk of my time and energy and not a small amount of my money on them. I work and train them every day. It would be hard for a "normal" person to understand the level of involvement I have with my dogs. There is just no way I would do something risky to them. They are carefully maintained, watched over, fed, groomed and actually seldom left alone. Really, if raw feeding were of any large risk, they would not get the diet they do, believe me.

If you are concerned about bacteria, you could scald the chicken I guess. Most contamination is going to be on the outside from processing. But, I haven't had any problems over the years and many dogs on a raw diet. 

The first time I fed raw I was leery. Sure, it was new for me! The dog I began with loved it and all his physical problems disappeared. In a few months that dog who had been given up on was absolutely glowing from the inside out! The experience was so convincing. I understand your trepidation, but many many have gone before you and experienced great results from this nutrition in their dogs.


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## hayduke (Mar 26, 2010)

RawFedDogs said:


> Just how hard headed are you? Obviously you have never fed a chicken bone in your life. I have fed over 8,000 meals that contained chicken bones without a problem. I know people who have fed many times more meals than I have without a problem. So don't sit there and try to tell us that they are dangerous when you haven't fed any. All you did is read a web page written by someone who also has never fed a chicken bone that they are dangerous.


1)correct.i have never fed a dog a chicken bone.
2)i have fed tens of thousands of meals with dry food without any problems.my dogs have lived much longer than average. so what? i dont like the stuff on the label and want to do better.i know they like meat. cooked and raw.
3)i have a problem with chicken bones.i am glad your dogs have done fine.i am not telling anyone what to do or not do.but i can tell you russian roulette is dangerous without playing it.


my question was: if you dont want to feed your dog chicken bones,what would substitute for the nutritional content and digestive function of bones.


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## RawFedDogs (Jun 16, 2008)

hayduke said:


> my question was: if you dont want to feed your dog chicken bones,what would substitute for the nutritional content and digestive function of bones.


Thats what we are trying to tell you. There is none. Bones are an essential part of the diet. Dogs have been eating bones for millions of years. Nature has equipped them very well to do just that. They are born knowing how. It is not russian roulette by any stretch of the immagination. It is no more dangerous that feeding kibble. Probably less dangerous. Get over your bone phobia and start feeding them.


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## PUNKem733 (Jun 12, 2009)

RawFedDogs said:


> Thats what we are trying to tell you. There is none. Bones are an essential part of the diet. Dogs have been eating bones for millions of years. Nature has equipped them very well to do just that. They are born knowing how. It is not russian roulette by any stretch of the immagination. It is no more dangerous that feeding kibble. Probably less dangerous. Get over your bone phobia and start feeding them.



I think you should quit while you're ahead. Some people are too hard headed for their own good, and we should just pray for their animals.


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## hayduke (Mar 26, 2010)

i am sure you mean well, but i did post this question under >dog nutrition>DRY and canned.

how did i get into the raw church?


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## RCTRIPLEFRESH5 (Feb 11, 2010)

hayduke said:


> i am sure you mean well, but i did post this question under >dog nutrition>DRY and canned.
> 
> how did i get into the raw church?


normally id agree with you, since this forum is very pushy on raw feeding, but your question was about adding meat to kibble whcih is not a bright idea, and i could see people emntioning jsut to feed raw meats.


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## kevin bradley (Aug 9, 2009)

Hayduke, 

Not sure if anyone has mentioned this(I haven't gone thru all the posts)...but you can't just add meat to a kibble without potentially throwing off the calcium/phosphorous ratio's...I'm not the person to go to on this subject but I'd recommend doing some research on the subject. 

You could do precisely the opposite of what you are trying to do and that is actually harm your Dog. 

Or you could just go with Orijen/Acana or EVO and not play around any more....or just go completely RAW. Those are your best options.


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## RawFedDogs (Jun 16, 2008)

hayduke said:


> i am sure you mean well, but i did post this question under >dog nutrition>DRY and canned.
> 
> how did i get into the raw church?


Let me see, I think I may be able so shed some light on this ...
1. Your OP asked about mixing meat w/ kibble.
2. Your next post asked about cooking meat.
3. Your next post asked about bacteria in/on raw meat.
4. Your next post asked about cooking destroying nutrients.
5. Your next post asked about the dangers of feeding whole bones.
6. Your next post asked more about cooking meat/bones
7. Your next post asked more about contamination of raw meat and expressed concerns about dangers of feeding bones.
8. Your next post asked even more about contamination and bones.
9. Your next post asked about danger of perforation of esophagus.
10. Your next post expressed more concern about perforation.
11. Your next post asked about substitutes for bone in the diet.
12. Your next post was more about bone.
13. Your next post asked more about substitute for bone.

So, this whole thread was nothing more than answering your questions and calming your irrational fears about feeding raw meat and whole bones. There was no preaching. Just answering YOUR questions. No one else in this whole thread asked a question. No one made any posts except to answer your questions or concerns. I think instead of asking how you got into raw church, you should be thanking the participants in the thread for answering your questions and addressing your concerns. This whole thread centered on you. All the answers you got were accurate and complete.


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## PUNKem733 (Jun 12, 2009)

RawFedDogs said:


> Let me see, I think I may be able so shed some light on this ...
> 1. Your OP asked about mixing meat w/ kibble.
> 2. Your next post asked about cooking meat.
> 3. Your next post asked about bacteria in/on raw meat.
> ...




LOL Some people...

_*** Inappropriate picture edited out by RawFedDogs because of complaints ***_


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## hayduke (Mar 26, 2010)

kevin bradley said:


> Hayduke,
> 
> Not sure if anyone has mentioned this(I haven't gone thru all the posts)...but you can't just add meat to a kibble without potentially throwing off the calcium/phosphorous ratio's...I'm not the person to go to on this subject but I'd recommend doing some research on the subject.
> 
> ...


thank you.
i ill learn more about that. 
maybe that is what the you-must -feed-raw-bones folks were implying.

_**** Edited by RawFedDogs ***** Deleting an offer to share copywrited material._


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## RawFedDogs (Jun 16, 2008)

Are you talking about a pdf copy of Tom's book, Works Wonders, Feed Your Dog Raw Meaty Bones?


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## hayduke (Mar 26, 2010)

yes.
i just read it.
i am learning a lot


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## RawFedDogs (Jun 16, 2008)

hayduke said:


> yes.
> i just read it.
> i am learning a lot


Yes, it's a great book, BUT you can't distribute it. It's a copywrited book and protected by international law. It is illegal to share it with others. It's the same thing as pirating software or music or movies.


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## hayduke (Mar 26, 2010)

what do you think of bone meal?
how about making it by drying and grinding the chicken bones?


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## RawFedDogs (Jun 16, 2008)

hayduke said:


> what do you think of bone meal?
> how about making it by drying and grinding the chicken bones?


I don't like bone meal or ground bones. You loose the dental benefit of feeding raw which is one of it's important benefits. Whole raw bones are by far superior to anything else. Chewing knuckle and femur bones don't accomplish the same thing as actually eating whole bones.

Peiodontal disease is a great epidemic in our dogs and its caused by eating kibble. Even the kibble manufacturers say that 80% of dogs will have periodontal disease by the time they are 3 years old. Raw fed dogs who are fed whole raw bones have no such diseases. Periodontal disease is very serious in both dogs and humans. It can and often does lead to disease in the heart, lungs and liver.


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## hayduke (Mar 26, 2010)

thanks
btw,i do clean my dogs teeth,but probably not often enough


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## RawFedDogs (Jun 16, 2008)

hayduke said:


> thanks
> btw,i do clean my dogs teeth,but probably not often enough


You can't clean teeth well enough with a toothbrush to do the job. I know many many dogs who have their teeth brushed regularly and still have to go to the vet for a cleaning every couple of years. Raw fed dogs never and I mean never in their lives have to have a vet clean their teeth. My 10 year old Dane, Abby, has pearly white puppy teeth and has never in her life had her teeth brushed or cleaned by a vet. Same with 5 yo Dane, Thor.

I don't have to tell you that it's dangerous for a dog to be put under anesthesia for tooth cleaning. I have known more than one dog to die from that. I have known more dogs die from tooth cleanings than from eating whole bones.


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## JayJayisme (Aug 2, 2009)

Disclaimer: I am a former kibble, now raw meaty bone feeder

Just a couple anecdotes related to the dental benefits of raw meaty bones. 

My vet, who is very anti-raw (we just don't discuss it...usually), is always amazed at how clean and healthy my dog's teeth and gums are. He always forgets and makes the mistake of asking me how I keep them so clean and healthy, which always leads to the same answer which is, "I feed them raw meaty bones".

This is the expression I usually get  but he can't deny that the results are no less than amazing. They see a LOT of periodontal disease in his office and like RFD said, it truly is an epidemic. 

I was playing with a 6-month old pit bull pup at the dog park recently and as we were playing, I was able to look at his teeth which were already coated in tartar. At SIX MONTHS! Yes, his owner is a kibble-feeder. Sad.

I do not brush or clean their teeth...ever! I just feed them *raw* and *meaty* chicken, turkey, duck, pork, and beef bones. They love 'em and they have healthy and beautiful pearly-whites! :biggrin:


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## hayduke (Mar 26, 2010)

no, i did not mean brush,i meant clean,with a dental tool. if its your own dog,and he trusts you,anesthesia is not necessary. just as it is not necessary when you go to a hygenist at the dentist

nevertheless, they definitely get plaque,so your testimony about the cleaning value of bones is impressive,as is a 10yo dane


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## hayduke (Mar 26, 2010)

which are the best beef bones ?


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## JayJayisme (Aug 2, 2009)

hayduke said:


> which are the best beef bones ?


Probably ribs, raw with a little meat on them. Bigger ribs with more meat for bigger dogs so they are forced to gnaw on it.


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## RawFedDogs (Jun 16, 2008)

I prefer pork ribs to beef ribs because they are easier to chew. Just hand your dog a half slab of pork ribs and he will do the rest. :smile:


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## hayduke (Mar 26, 2010)

After a week of adding chicken and steak in increasing amounts, my 14yo is noticeably happier......
i am working on making my own bone meal


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## whiteleo (Sep 7, 2008)

If your really against giving your dog real bones for calcium and teeth/gum health, people have been known to get ground calcium/eggshell from their health food store and add that to their dogs diet for their calcium content.


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## Guest (Apr 4, 2010)

hayduke said:


> ...... Why not start with a medium grade food like kirkland lamb and rice and add your own real chicken(breasts are $1/# on sale sometimes) or beef ($2 /# on sale for flank steak)? That way you could avoid the hassle of adding all the necessary nutrients needed if you were starting from scratch, but would get the benefit of high quality meat.


Many dog owners add 100% meat canned dog food as a topper to medium grade kibble. Much less effort than buying and cooking meat to use as a topper. I would suggest Wellness 100% meat canned dog food or even Evanger's.


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## hayduke (Mar 26, 2010)

Thank you lab mom. I checked the prices. you can tell by the protein %(10%) that it is less than 50% meat, making the cost for the meat over $6 a pound.

I think it is so easy to cook whole chickens (at 67c/lb incl skin and bones which i dont use, making the meat around $1.50) or cheap steak (1.67 this week) that the ease of opening a can is not worth the price to me. Also, Ican eat some of the chicken if they will share.


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## hayduke (Mar 26, 2010)

I have been reading a lot about dog food since for the past 3 weeks.
I went to a lecture sponsored by Nature's Variety. The "holistic" vet had many of the usual criticisms of commercial kibble, but no idea what the actual nutritional requirements beyond meat protein and animal fat were for dogs.
I have read mixed reviews on their food.
But I do not see why one would spend $3+ per pound for any prepared "raw" food rather that buying grocery-store beef or chicken on sale.


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