# About Cesar Millan



## NewYorkDogue

I like him. His straight-forward approach: i.e. "Exercise; Discipline; Affection- in that order," makes sense. Also, "Rules, Boundaries, Limitations" is something that many (esp. first-time) dog-owners need to keep in mind. And his idea that one should respond to the "dog" first, then "breed" second, also rings true.

When he talks about giving affection at the wrong time- nurturing the wrong state of mind, is also important. He speaks about developing trust, and his techniques seem very much based on the mind of the canine, rather than what humans super-impose on the dog (treating the dog as a human.) He seems to work out problems and issues from the dog's point of view/state of mind...

And yet I have noticed, while reading through some past threads, that some people really disagree with him, and some really don't like him at all.

Is it because of the alpha/dominant thing he does sometimes? 

So, I am just curious- and want to learn more. I'm open to others' opinions.


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## CavePaws

This is from the dogs state of mind? Really? What is so similar about the way he is dragging that dog up the stairs with a choke chain to anything a dog is thinking or in the state of mind to do? The fact is, he isn't doing anything but making the stairs a more unpleasant experience. I'm disgusted by that video, and it was only the first one I clicked to watch.

9-St_Bernard_Riley (Abuse).flv - YouTube

He says address the dog first but in this video you hear him say that it is typical of large breed dogs to use their weight against him. Well DUH, dumby...You're trying to drag that dog up the stairs that he is very afraid of. ANY behaviorist or good trainer will tell you that Cesar Millans methods are archaic and barbaric. Most trainers would approach this from a counter conditioning and desensitization angle. NOT simply drag the dog up the stairs on a choke chain. That is not training; dragging a dog up the stairs on a choke chain is abusive and teaches them nothing but to not trust you OR the stairs.


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## werecatrising

When I first saw the link CavePaws posted it brought tears to my eyes. I have 2 dogs who started out extremely fearful and the thought of somebody doing that to them is sickening. Then you have the videos of him kicking, choking and alpha rolling dogs. Ugh. I think tat man is the worst thing to happen to dogs in a long time.


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## CavePaws

No one see's Cesar Millan at the APDT conferences...You know why? He is the laughing stock of professional dog trainers. They host a comedy show at the APDT conference where people do skits and one of them was just too funny. "Cesar take the cheese" was the title and it was a play off the Jesus take the wheel song. If you don't know the song, look it up. I nearly fell on the floor laughing when my boss and her son were telling me about the skit. 

Simply put, Cesar Millan has absolutely 0 credentials but working as a groomer with fearful and aggressive dogs for whatever many years he boasts about. It's really rather sad that he is made into a such a celebrity in the public eye.

Check out Ian Dunbar, Dog Star Daily, he is a veterinarian, animal behaviorist, and author of many excellent training books.


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## werecatrising

Here's another person to check out
Dog Training Books, Dog Training, Dog Behavior, Puppy Training | Patricia McConnell


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## cprcheetah

At first I was VERY enamoured by him and thought, wow, cool he's really good, then the more I learned about him, the more I saw him, the more I decided he was NOT good, he uses a lot of negative reinforcement. It makes me sick to watch some of his videos. I have found that my dogs respond WAY WAY WAY better to positive reinforcement than negative.

Here are some links that explain more as to WHY they don't like his methods.
Modern Dog Training vs. Cesar Millan
Dog Whisperer, Dog Psychology and Cesar Millan


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## Tobi

Everybody else kinda covered it especially the vid that Kelly linked, it's appalling thinking that he thinks that's good for the dog :frown:


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## MollyWoppy

I must admit that when I first started watching him years ago, I thought he was quite good. After all, there were all these pitbulls and rottweilers and little dogs that no-one could control and he went in there and in 20 minutes their lives were changed forever.
I think in some ways, he does have some good information, the exercise, setting boundaries, but after watching more closely it dawned on me, the choke collar high up on the neck was actually strangling the dog, the dog wasn't submitting to the alpha, he was submitting because he was dying.
Cesar is harsh, way, way too harsh for my liking.
However, there were a few people that he would visit where I'd go, Oh, good God, really? That husband hasn't slept in his bed for a year because his little dog won't let him on the bed??? Are there really people out there that let that happen? Maybe he should just try training some people and forget the dogs!


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## jdatwood

This is the best thing Cesar has ever done
Cartman vs. The Dog Whisperer (Season 10, Episode 7) - Video Clips - South Park Studios

Full episode
Tsst (Season 10, Episode 7) - Full Episode Player - South Park Studios


I don't like Cesar. He trains dogs using TV "magic". His production assistants have admitted on camera that they intentionally provoke reactions from dogs. He uses shock collars on some shows and doesn't disclose that he's doing it leaving you wondering why the dog is jumping and screaming every time it gets near the cat

He NEVER should have been put in the position he is in. NatGeo should take his show off the air. People behind their TV are too impressionable and TRUST the crap he's spewing forth each episode.

Great FB group
https://www.facebook.com/groups/20444826822/

Lots of Cesar videos showing improper technique
http://www.youtube.com/user/AntiCesarMillan


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## malluver1005

jdatwood said:


> This is the best thing Cesar has ever done
> Cartman vs. The Dog Whisperer (Season 10, Episode 7) - Video :Clips - South Park Studios


LMAO!! :rofl:


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## hmbutler

Just watched that St Bernard video... What a f****** idiot!!! If someone tried to do that to my dog I'd put a choke chain on them and drag THEM up the stairs!!


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## catahoulamom

MollyWoppy said:


> I must admit that when I first started watching him years ago, I thought he was quite good. After all, there were all these pitbulls and rottweilers and little dogs that no-one could control and he went in there and in 20 minutes their lives were changed forever.
> I think in some ways, he does have some good information, the exercise, setting boundaries, but after watching more closely it dawned on me, the choke collar high up on the neck was actually strangling the dog, the dog wasn't submitting to the alpha, he was submitting because he was dying.
> Cesar is harsh, way, way too harsh for my liking.
> However, there were a few people that he would visit where I'd go, Oh, good God, really? That husband hasn't slept in his bed for a year because his little dog won't let him on the bed??? Are there really people out there that let that happen? Maybe he should just try training some people and forget the dogs!


Pretty much exactly what I was going to say. When the show first came out I was like "oh look how good he is at 'fixing' dogs!" Thank goodness this was before I had dogs of my own to train, LOL. I have no respect for him as a "dog rehabilitator" or whatever it is he claims to be. I have no respect for him as a person. I can appreciate that he loves his dogs, but I do NOT agree with his methods nor do I think he should be on TV "teaching" people how to dominate their dog and be the "pack leader". He's certainly no trainer (but even he will tell you that). That being said, I think the "exercise, discipline, then affection" should be turned into "exercise, positive reinforcement, affection". 

Sometimes I watch the show just to see the dogs. I usually end up turning it off because of the disgusting things he does, but I was surprised to see him passing out RMB's to his pack once. I've also seem him use treats to teach fearful dogs that humans are okay a couple times, which I appreciated. Other than that, he freakin' sucks.


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## xellil

I can't remember how long Cesar Milan has been on the air, but it's been a long time.

There were definitely some things I learned from him.

a) Be calm. being a kind of frantic person naturally, taking deep breaths and thinking about my level of calm was a huge help when i got Rebel.

b) be patient. I know everyone focuses on the St Bernard etc. but I have seen him sit with his back to a fearful dog and they SAY the time elapsed was a very long time, with him just sitting there. He's not always dragging dogs around. That struck home with me whether he really sat there that long or not. Things don't happen in a minute or two. Patience, patience.

I watch and read alot of different dog trainer stuff because when I got Rebel things were really awful for us. What I found is that I don't like any of them completely but there is almost always something I can take away that helps.

And sometimes i think the TV trainers don't work with dogs like Rebel who are very difficult. I had two trainers (in person) tell me it was my fault my dog wasn't progressing when I was doing everything they asked AND getting them to do for me if I wasn't doing so hot a job of it. So I am very suspicious of trainers on TV who tell me how easy it is. It depends on the dog.

It's very easy to get your dog to be 100% in your living room.


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## werecatrising

xellil said:


> He's not always dragging dogs around.
> 
> 
> 
> .


Maybe not, but he does it.Being patient sometimes and cruel others just shows that he is erratic.


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## jdatwood

Unfortunately the positives in his show don't outweigh all of the negatives


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## DeekenDog

Cesar has some basic understanding of dog training in that he promotes exercise and understands the fact that dog's feed off their people's energy. And that's pretty much all that I agree with him on. As the owner of a dog who is fearful/nervous and who has behaviour issues because of it, using the dominance theory spouted on that show would have DESTROYED my dog. He'd be a shut-down, fearful mess. Luckily, I was educated enough to know better than to try to use that crap and Deeken is thriving. I'm someone who wants my dog to want to work with me and want to do what I ask because he finds it enriching and rewarding. I don't want him to do it because he's scared I'll make him uncomfortable or hurt him. I think Cesar does way more harm than good. Dominance theory has been debunked, training methods based on it need to die.


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## xellil

werecatrising said:


> Maybe not, but he does it.Being patient sometimes and cruel others just shows that he is erratic.


I don't disagree at all. But what I take away is up to me, not him. I don't have to drag dogs around just because he does it. Which is my point, I guess. I don't care about him, I care about me.

and if I can learn something good from him, I will. I am smart enough to know what would be harmful to my dog.

I actually don't watch him any more. I haven't watched him in several years. But I do still remember to be calm, and to be patient. And I did learn that from watching his show.


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## xellil

I think what did get to bother me about his show even before I realized that he was being cruel to the dogs was that i thought he was doing stuff that neither I nor the average Joe could do and it was going to result in alot of people hurting their dogs trying to emulate him.


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## minnieme

When are Patricia McConnell, Jean Donaldson, Ian Dunbar, etc going to get their own shows? I don't want youtube videos or radio broadcasts, I want legit cable TV shows so the masses can pick up on the last 40 years of solid, documented RESEARCH and EVIDENCE in regards to dog training and animal behavior.

Cesar Milan is a JOKE. He disgusts me.. and I'm with DeekenDog. If I would have tried his approach with my already fearful pup, I would have one shell-shocked dog! 

Jon is right. For whatever tiny gems there are in his show (Oh, exercising my dog is a good thing?!), there are a million other flaws that make it totally unacceptable for the modern dog owner. The facts need to catch up to the fiction. Dogs deserve better from us.


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## NewYorkDogue

Okay. So.. peel back the layers a bit and see what pops up (some behind the scenes stuff that is pretty disturbing.) Ugh. He seems to exude a gentle nature with "calm, assertive energy," so that is attractive to t.v. I get that.

I don't employ his methods-- but I was curious what people's thoughts were. 

For me, trust is the most important thing between me and my dog. Period. I certainly do not advocate harsh or strict training methods- ever. That being said, I still think there are some positive things one can take away from his approach (i.e. that more often than not, it's the people who need training more than the dog.)

But in the end it's a relationship, and each relationship is unique...


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## xellil

Honestly, I feel betrayed by him. I didn't know for a long time he was being cruel. Yes, i'm an idiot. When I first started reading that he was cruel, I didn't want to believe it. It was like hearing my husband was having an affair. 

Probably why I don't watch him any more, and haven't for so long. I really believed in him. But I can't deny that I DID learn alot. I never tried anything like the alpha roll blah blah so I didn't hurt my dogs because of him. And I have to believe that I got something positive out of blindly adoring someone who hurts dogs.


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## jdatwood

NewYorkDogue said:


> That being said, I still think there are some positive things one can take away from his approach (i.e. that more often than not, it's the people who need training more than the dog.)


The problem is that Joe Public watching him every week from the comfort of their couch on the NATIONAL GEOGRAPHIC Channel doesn't know how to pick the show apart and choose what is good and what is bad. They see it as the "right way" because some overpaid "celebrity" says that's the way to do it. They don't know enough about dog behavior to spot the constant negatives in the show. They only see TV magic as the dogs are fixed of their behaviors in 1 episode.

Most of us know better but unfortunately the people that flock to watch his show and see him at public appearances DON'T know any better. We need to spread the word as far and wide as possible so we can limit the futher damage Cesar (and trainers that follow his beliefs) do...



Don't get me wrong, I was one of the muppets watching his show 5 years ago. The ex made us watch EVERY episode. I look back and want to beat my head against the wall for all of the crap I took on board that I thought was "proper" training methods. Thankfully I met Natalie and she straightened me (and Shiloh) out :biggrin:


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## maplewood

I personally think it is unprofessional for one professional to bash another...

When people ask me "what wrong with Milan?" my answer is usually "ANY T.V. show that has a disclaimer _Do not attempt these methods on your own_, probably isn't the best way to go about it. Conflict makes for better entertainment than actual behavior modification does."


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## xellil

jdatwood said:


> Most of us know better but unfortunately the people that flock to watch his show and see him at public appearances DON'T know any better. We need to spread the word as far and wide as possible so we can limit the futher damage Cesar (and trainers that follow his beliefs) do...
> 
> 
> 
> Don't get me wrong, I was one of the muppets watching his show 5 years ago. The ex made us watch EVERY episode. I look back and want to beat my head against the wall for all of the crap I took on board that I thought was "proper" training methods. Thankfully I met Natalie and she straightened me (and Shiloh) out :biggrin:


I had never trained a dog when I was watching him. Since I had lived so rurally my whole life my dogs rarely even had leashes on. 

When I was enamored with him I had an older dog who was perfect in every way. I have to wonder - would I have tried some of that crap on my dog if he had been a handful? I'd like to think not. But Cesar Milan was all I knew about changing a dog's behavior. 

So I'm glad you said that, because I felt like everyone in the world but me knew he wasn't doing right by the dogs.


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## whiteleo

Give me Victoria Stillwell any day, at least she knows how to use positive reinforcement. I really have learned some things from her watching "It's
me or the Dog"


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## Scarlett_O'

First off that video had me in tears...and Ive had a damn good day, yet that video ruined it to the point that I went over and cuddled up with my fearful(needs to be carried when on a large amount of linoleum) Leo and let a few tears fall!!!

Secondly, I agree with what nearly everyone has been saying, and EXACTLY what DeekenDog said...I cant even IMAGINE pulling some of his craptastic stunts on ANY of my dogs, let alone our current 4 who tend to be more shy and easily afraid!!

He, and other idiots like him, are the VERY reason that I will NOT leave my dogs in ANYONE'S care for even a full day....I dont want that kind of crap done to my dogs. And Ive known LOTS of people who like him....never have and NEVER will understand it!!!


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## werecatrising

Scarlett_O' said:


> First off that video had me in tears...and Ive had a damn good day, yet that video ruined it to the point that I went over and cuddled up with my fearful(needs to be carried when on a large amount of linoleum) Leo and let a few tears fall!!!
> 
> Secondly, I agree with what nearly everyone has been saying, and EXACTLY what DeekenDog said...I cant even IMAGINE pulling some of his craptastic stunts on ANY of my dogs, let alone our current 4 who tend to be more shy and easily afraid!!
> 
> He, and other idiots like him, are the VERY reason that I will NOT leave my dogs in ANYONE'S care for even a full day....I dont want that kind of crap done to my dogs. And Ive known LOTS of people who like him....never have and NEVER will understand it!!!


I guess I'm not the only one who was tat upset by the video. I didn't even watch it all the way through.


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## JayJayisme

Living all my life in Los Angeles, and having been involved in "the industry", i.e. Hollywood, here and there over the years, I've learned to take everything I see on TV with a grain of salt. It's 99.9% B.S. I wouldn't be surprised at all to find out that "The Dog Whisperer" is any different. Anything made for television isn't going to represent reality. And that includes the six o'clock news!

But, take the TV element away and just read a couple of CM's books and I think you'd have a different opinion. It's my belief that CM is okay at his core, and he really does have a clear and sane view of dog behavior, but that the presentation of his methods have been perverted by television. TV is a double-edged sword. If you have a crusade and want to reach the masses with your message, television will get you there. But if you want to keep that going, you are eventually going to have to "make a deal with the devil" and cave in against your standards eventually for the sake of "good TV", and you as the "personality" on the show will have little say in the matter. It's a constant struggle of trying to walk a fine line between what is right, and what will keep your show on the air.

There are many positive aspects of the lessons on his show although I'm not condoning some of the stuff he's done. If, at the very least, the mouth-breathing masses come away from the show understanding one thing; that dogs aren't people, that is a good thing. All I'm saying is that before you crucify CM, read one of his books. I think books more closely reflect the reality and true belief of the author, because the author has more control over them then he/she does in a TV show.


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## Scarlett_O'

werecatrising said:


> I guess I'm not the only one who was tat upset by the video. I didn't even watch it all the way through.


Neither did I...it played the whole way thru...but I was cuddling with Leo. (Who btw, didnt mind at all!!:tongue


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## CorgiPaws

You know what bothers me MOST about that video? I mean aside from the blatant mistreatment of the dog? Where the hell was the praise when the dog did make it to the top or bottom of the stairs? Training is not just about eliminating unwanted behaviors but also praising and encouraging desirable ones. There is zero praise whatsoever. That's not training. That's dragging a dog around by the neck, and leaving him with no effing clue as to WHAT you want him to do. 

I really really firmly believe that the energy put off by the owner does impact the dog, and at least he recognizes that to SOME extent. Working doggy daycare I've found nervous owner almost always equals nervous anxious dog.

ETA: All that running around my yard with raw fish teaching braxton to "load up" in the car, why didn't I think of just putting him on a choke chain and dragging his terrified limp body on up?! Silly me, the thought didn't even cross my mind.


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## CavePaws

JayJayisme said:


> Living all my life in Los Angeles, and having been involved in "the industry", i.e. Hollywood, here and there over the years, I've learned to take everything I see on TV with a grain of salt. It's 99.9% B.S. I wouldn't be surprised at all to find out that "The Dog Whisperer" is any different. Anything made for television isn't going to represent reality. And that includes the six o'clock news!
> 
> But, take the TV element away and just read a couple of CM's books and I think you'd have a different opinion. It's my belief that CM is okay at his core, and he really does have a clear and sane view of dog behavior, but that the presentation of his methods have been perverted by television. TV is a double-edged sword. If you have a crusade and want to reach the masses with your message, television will get you there. But if you want to keep that going, you are eventually going to have to "make a deal with the devil" and cave in against your standards eventually for the sake of "good TV", and you as the "personality" on the show will have little say in the matter. It's a constant struggle of trying to walk a fine line between what is right, and what will keep your show on the air.
> 
> There are many positive aspects of the lessons on his show although I'm not condoning some of the stuff he's done. If, at the very least, the mouth-breathing masses come away from the show understanding one thing; that dogs aren't people, that is a good thing. All I'm saying is that before you crucify CM, read one of his books. I think books more closely reflect the reality and true belief of the author, because the author has more control over them then he/she does in a TV show.


I watched him several years ago, about five, and did not know any better than to follow some of his "alpha" type methods. Now I know better. I also read his first book and I still do not agree with him on very much. He is downright wrong in his approach to "rehabilitating dogs".

First of all: There is absolutely nothing patient about dragging that dog up the stairs. What they want is quick results, a show they can film in several hours during a day. The dog is pushed WAY above it's threshold so that he can get quick results. I would have taught the dog to target the stair. The very first stair. ANY step that dog made towards the stair I would reward. We would work one stair at a time. And if it takes me a good 20 minutes to get the dog to target the stair with their nose or paw, so be it. If it takes multiple twenty minute sessions to even get them to take a step towards the stair, so be it. He is not patient in training. Training requires a certain amount of patience to begin with, but when rehabilitating a fearful dog if it takes you a month to get the dog up two steps, that is what you need to do. You are teaching them that the stairs are not a bad place, they are actually a place where lots of praise and reward is to be had, and that you are an owner worthy of their trust and constant devotion. Not one that you wonder if you are going to have to jump back and get away because they might go ballistic at any point in time.


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## CavePaws

The difference between the way I train and the way he trains is this: If I am not getting results, I take a step back and break the behavior down even more in order to train in baby steps. If Cesar is not getting results he literally forces the dog into doing what he wants.


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## xchairity_casex

i learned alot about dog behavior watching cesar millans show even if you dont like him or his methods you can still learn alot by observing the dogs on his show heck you could even turn the volume off and watch the dogs interact with eachother. ive always loved watchign dogs and all animals for that matter and i always had this thought on there behavior but wasnt confedent enough in what i belived untill after i watched cesar millan.
i persoanlly like him and his show and incorporate some of his methods in training thought i also use alot of praise and treats for most things.

i take alot of crap becuase i consider myself a more firm training and owner and for some reason people automatically assume firm means i beat dogs when it jsut means i am firm i dont budge when i ask them not to do a behavior clearly i expect them to not do it so long as there is no underlieing issues 9such as asking the dog to be calm when its had no excersize) if i ask cesar my dog to not touch somthing and give him clear instructions to not touch it useing a correction such as saying "AH" and/or a leash jerk when he touches it i expect him to listen if he doesnt he gets a correction if he does listen he gets praised,a treat or a quick game with a toy. ive been cussed at,called the worst owner in the world ect for that ive been told many times that "your dog is obviously terrafied of you" for what? telling him no?
im a big beliver in useing your energy becuase it works alot of times o dont even have to physically touch,redirect cesar for him to understnad what im asking if he picks somthing up hes not supposed to have i walk over to him and give him look nothing more he drops what hes got and walks away ive never hit him or kicked him or yelled at him why should he be terrafied of me? i can assure you he is not a terrafied dog doesnt climb into your lap to lick your face a terrafied dog doesnt have a big goofy grin on its face when it sees you every morning and a terrafied dog doesnt rush over to you when the prospect of treats is not certian.

you know if anyone has ever read any of barbra woodshouses books they would find out that her methods and cesars were alot alike and barbra woodhouse was IT back in teh day she was thee trainer people have been useing corrections for a long long time with dogs its never deminished there love for us it wasnt untill recently that people began useing more posative mthods of training am i saying thats bad no but i am saying theres more then one way to train a dog and not everydog responds to every kind of training is that the trainers fault? NO its the persons who picked them if its not working for your dog dont use it if it is well them by all means stick with it. my sisters toy poodle is one of those dogs who probably would never need a person to be firm with ehr or use corrections whereas cesar on teh other hand deff would be a total wreck had i trained him sueing solely treats and posative methods. how do i know? well my bf is a big one for useing baby talk and treats to get cesar to do what he wants and cesar wont listen to my bf for well anything if my bf lets him in the yard off lead cesar refuses to lsiten and come back inside if my bf goes to try to ccatch him he dodges my bf takes treats out and cesar doesnt bat an eye my bf takes toys out and sweetly calles him to cme i go to the door way and say "cesar get in here" his head snaps up he comes running happily to the door way and in the house. my bf gets out of his chair cesar takes it my bf calls him and calls him offering him hot dogs,meat balls,bits of cooked noodles holding it right in front of his nose he ignores him i stand up i say "cesar get off" and point to the floor he gets up and jumps off the chair and comes to me for a pet. he loves me becuase he respects me thats just the kind of dog that he is if i had continued on like my bf only sueing posatives and treats i would have not had any control over him whatso ever i know it

you have to be smart and see what your dog responds to and go from there when chooseign a method and like i always tell people "if you dont agree with my method or opinions dont do them becuase if you dont feel comfortable in what your doing your dog will pick up on that and not respond"


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## DoglovingSenior

What most people do not realize is that "the magic of TELEVISION" makes him look good. This SHOW is not presented live or the public might not have such a great opinion of CM. What we see is the edited version-there are many, many, MANY, MANYYYYYYYY outtakes before that show is put together. I no longer watch him. He is CRUEL. and I am a firm believer in discipline- not cruelty.


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## sozzle

whiteleo said:


> Give me Victoria Stillwell any day, at least she knows how to use positive reinforcement. I really have learned some things from her watching "It's
> me or the Dog"


The only time I've watched Cesar Milan was before I had a dog and that was only a couple of times. Since I've had a dog, no I don't like him and won't watch him. 
I have seen Victoria Stilwell and really like her and also Jan Fennell who is known as 'The Dog Listener' and has adopted Monty Roberts's (horse trainer) methods. She uses a lot of positive reinforcement too and doesn't believe in being cruel in any way or form. I have never seen any other trainers but am always interested to learn more so will look up some of the others mentioned above.
(I remember Barbara Woodhouse from childhood in UK, she was hilarious but can't remember any of her methods except the way she used to say "SIT")
Postive reinforcement works really well with my dog.
It also works really well with human kids!!!


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## eternalstudent

Although I am not 100 % sure but I think it was because of his website that I decided that I could own a dog. He made is sound so simple.

So where I am happy that I came to the decision about owning a dog I have never tried what he said !!!!!

He is a marketing genius or has one working for him, his methods are old and outdated, but for some reason so many people still think it is the right way to go about things.

I have never watched him on telly as by the time I was interested in dog training I had also found out that I did not want to control a dog by force or fear. Most of the trainers around here adopt a "mostly positive re-enforcement" approach to the training, which seems to me to be the the cop-out as they know they cant stop people using force they just try to limit it.

I will have to watch some of the other trainers on youtube to be able to say whether I like them or not as to be honest I prefer books.


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## SpooOwner

I cringe when I hear people "tsch" their dogs like CM. I wish people would stop watching his show and take a training course instead.


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## doggiedad

i think you changed your tune now that you see so many people
diapprove of his methods. if you think his methods are so good
why don't you employ them??

what do you mean "people need more training than the dog", that
doesn't make any sence. if a person needs more training than
a dog they shouldn't have a dog or anything else.


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## Maxy24

I saw a woman at a huge dog event on the Boston common with her small breed dog. The dog was obviously DA or DR and would periodically lunge at passing dogs. She would then yank him back grab him, and alpha roll him, hold him down until he stopped flipping out. I saw her do it about 3 times...I had already been at the event for a couple of hours, I really hope she hadn't already bee there that long or her poor dog would be at the END of his rope. His methods are dangerous, he is encouraging people to take their dogs and flood them by bringing them right up to what scares them. He's encouraging them to MAKE their dog react so that they can correct it. In fact he can't train something if it doesn't react (all punishment based methods work like this). His methods are dangerous, putting some disclaimer at the beginning of the show is stupid. You are putting a dog trainer on a TV show and having him tell people this is the BEST way and that other ways don't work and let your dog be in charge of the household...you think people are going to just ignore that? 


And his methods aside, the man doesn't know anything about dogs. I hate when people say he sees things from the dog's perspective...no, he sees things from the perspective he made up and tells you is the dog's perspective. And people always quote his whole "but he promotes exercise!", yeah along with every decent trainer in existence. Plus he will tell you he is not punishing the dog when he alpha rolls and touches, no of course not. He is showing dominance, that's not punishment at all. Because I'm sure your dog finds being flipped over on his back, collar corrected, and jabbed in the neck absolutely refreshing. No, the dog wants him to stop holding him down/jabbing/yanking on him and so changes his behavior. That's the definition of punishment.


He knows nothing about dog behavior. I remember an episode with a react black dog. He was walking him towards another dog and as per usual if it walked in front he jabbed it in the neck (great way to build positive associations with other dogs). When he did this the dog's ears would flatten on his head because he was scared. Then cesar started jabbing him on the beck if the dog's ears weren't flat against his head. The dog was walking just fine beside him but is any of his confidence started coming back and his ears started lifting off his skull at all, jab in the neck. What an awesome state to put a dog in, pure terror, Cesar's favorite. And then another episode where there was a crate guarding dog who went nutso when anyone approached his crate. Cesar went to the crate and leaned over it and stuff, his usual flooding and intimidation. Then he cracked the door and slipped a leash on and preceded to collar correct the dog repeatedly...not entirely sure why...I think it might have been moving too much or something, he likes his dog stiff and terrified because then he can tell the audience that their calm. Because lack of movement is paired with being calm when in fact he's too terrified to move for fear it will cause another punishment. But whatever. The part that really had my jaw drop was when the dog shifted his weight to hold up one of his front paws. A CLASSIC calming signal. Cesar takes this opportunity to tell us that the dog was in hunting mode because when dog's hunt they lift a paw (yeah cesar, because they're walking and suddenly freeze when the prey looks at them so they don't get caught, they don't just go and lift paws before they hunt) so he couldn't trust the dog yet. My jaw literally dropped when he said this, pure lies, in fact the complete opposite of what he dog is saying (calming signals are used by dogs who are begging to stop confrontation, they are scared and are asking you to please stop, they don't want to get into a fight). Even if you ignored his methods, he just has no clue. He makes up dog body language and makes up their state of mind. And then he makes us believe he is telling the truth and that this is really how dogs think and what their behavior means, and so people feel everyone else is ignoring what dogs really think because they don't talk about dominance and don't call the dog out on what they now perceive as dominant body language. It's ridiculous how complete lies become so popular. 


His show is good for ONE thing, learning how to read dog body language. You just have to ignore everything he says and watch the dog. In the crate guarding episode I talked about the dog shows SO many calming signals, the leg lifting (which I had only ever read about before watching this episode), yawning, lip licking, avoiding eye contact, licking, and of course just overall fearful body language with flattened ears. And there's probably more I missed. So their great for examples of calming signals or great for learning to tell when a dog is about to bite.


Well I think that's my rant from today. There are lots of bad thins about him, and the only good things he has to offer (that people cause problems in their dogs, that dogs need exercise, that dogs need to be trained) are offered by every GOOD trainer out there too. 

For the record I'm not a huge Victoria Stilwell fan either. I mean it's nice that there is a non abusive trainer on television so that people can be exposed to that instead of just punishment based methods, but she started to really frustrate me. She is using more punishment (not abusive obviously, but still punishment) and less rewards. She waits to long between reward so that the dog messes up and gets frustrated. I just feel she's not a very good trainer, even if she is at least non-abusive. There are just a ton of times when I'm like, WHY didn't you reward that!! Why aren't you cutting back on your criteria, the dog obviously isn't ready yet! I just wish one of the really good trainers could have a show.


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## lucky

To be honest I am not too keen on victoria stillwell, I watched a lot of her programmes in the past and her high pitched squeaky voice when she's talking to the dogs as if they are babies just irritates me, I am not saying she isn't a good trainer in a lot of respects but the babying voice is just off putting. 

Regarding Cesar, I do not agree with his training methods nor would I ever use them but to be fair he has probably saved a lot of dogs from being PTS


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## Tobi

lucky said:


> To be honest I am not too keen on victoria stillwell, I watched a lot of her programmes in the past and her high pitched squeaky voice when she's talking to the dogs as if they are babies just irritates me, I am not saying she isn't a good trainer in a lot of respects but the babying voice is just off putting.
> 
> Regarding Cesar, I do not agree with his training methods nor would I ever use them but to be fair he has probably saved a lot of dogs from being PTS


well her accent doesn't charm you because you're from Wales!!! :lol:


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## minnieme

lucky said:


> To be honest I am not too keen on victoria stillwell, I watched a lot of her programmes in the past and her high pitched squeaky voice when she's talking to the dogs as if they are babies just irritates me, I am not saying she isn't a good trainer in a lot of respects but the babying voice is just off putting.


I've never seen her show, but I do know that the high pitched squeaky voice is Minnie's favorite motivator 99.9% of the time. ;-) Gets her to do a lot of stuff if I don't have treats handy. :wink:


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## xellil

minnieme said:


> I've never seen her show, but I do know that the high pitched squeaky voice is Minnie's favorite motivator 99.9% of the time. ;-) Gets her to do a lot of stuff if I don't have treats handy. :wink:


That is so true - Rick wonders why Snorkels never responds to him. It's because I can squeal like a pig  SNOOOOORRRKEEEEEES! Also, probably because she's almost deaf so that's the only tone she hears.

I love those accents. In fact, it's why I have the degree I have. I just kept taking the courses of a fellow who was from England because I loved to hear his voice, and then I had so many credits I just stuck with it with the fellow who didn't have the great accent. Didn't hurt that he was really good looking, also.


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## lucky

Tobi said:


> well her accent doesn't charm you because you're from Wales!!! :lol:


Very true :biggrin:


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## lucky

Got no arguments that a squeaky voice motivate a lot of dogs, I just can't listen to her voice :biggrin1:


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## lucky

xellil said:


> That is so true - Rick wonders why Snorkels never responds to him. It's because I can squeal like a pig  SNOOOOORRRKEEEEEES! Also, probably because she's almost deaf so that's the only tone she hears.
> 
> I love those accents. In fact, it's why I have the degree I have. I just kept taking the courses of a fellow who was from England because I loved to hear his voice, and then I had so many credits I just stuck with it with the fellow who didn't have the great accent. Didn't hurt that he was really good looking, also.


Maybe some of the men have nice accents, you ought to hear some from the rougher parts though, would make you cringe lol


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## lucky

Watch clips from jeremy kyle's talk show if you can find it on youtube, you will see what I mean


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## nupe

LOL.....I love how you guys all jump on the same bandwagon and co sign each other. I saw that episode with the st bernard and thats not the whole episode that was posted, some of that was taken out of context.....I dont agree with all CM techniques....but I also dont think he is a dog abuser either!! LOL....You guys are something else...hey I got a question??..besides the OP...who here thinks CM is good at what he does? and agrees with some of his techniques?? Is there anyone else???................................UH OH I think I will have to go to the Principal office again after, this post!!!


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## Caty M

nupe said:


> LOL.....I love how you guys all jump on the same bandwagon and co sign each other. I saw that episode with the st bernard and thats not the whole episode that was posted, some of that was taken out of context.....I dont agree with all CM techniques....but I also dont think he is a dog abuser either!! LOL....You guys are something else...hey I got a question??..besides the OP...who here thinks CM is good at what he does? and agrees with some of his techniques?? Is there anyone else???................................UH OH I think I will have to go to the Principal office again after, this post!!!


HEY ..... I also have a question ...... if you think we are all ridiculous and just serve to annoy us by only making posts that are irrelevant and add nothing to this forum as a whole, why are you here? Just leave!

And... flooding a dog when it is clearly terrified IS abuse.


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## Tobi

nupe said:


> LOL.....I love how you guys all jump on the same bandwagon and co sign each other. I saw that episode with the st bernard and thats not the whole episode that was posted, some of that was taken out of context.....I dont agree with all CM techniques....but I also dont think he is a dog abuser either!! LOL....You guys are something else...hey I got a question??..besides the OP...who here thinks CM is good at what he does? and agrees with some of his techniques?? Is there anyone else???................................UH OH I think I will have to go to the Principal office again after, this post!!!


Or maybe... just maybe people think alike, and have similar training techniques that they prefer? I DON'T think he's good at what he does at all, working in a shelter you wouldn't believe how many dogs come in there hand shy, and awaiting an alpha roll because people were watching too much Caesar Milan.... the only thing that he and i could ever agree on is that dogs need plenty of exercise and care. If you don't add anything constructive to a thread why post in it? you are just trying to start arguments, and the fact that you say "uh oh i think i will have to go to the principals office again after, this post!!!" just proves it...


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## werecatrising

As I said earlier, that man and is show are one of the worst tings to happen to dogs. I have only been in the veterinary field for 9 years, but many of the people have been in it for some 30 years tell me the number of behavioral issues has increased since people have been brainwashed by that idiot.

I don't understand people who say things like "the st bernard thing was taken out of context" or "he doesn't do that all the time". If I am decent to a person the majority of the time but sometimes, bully, kick, choke and intimidate them does that somehow make it better?


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## nupe

Caty M said:


> HEY ..... I also have a question ...... if you think we are all ridiculous and just serve to annoy us by only making posts that are irrelevant and add nothing to this forum as a whole, why are you here? Just leave!
> 
> And... flooding a dog when it is clearly terrified IS abuse.



OUCH!!! THAT HURT...and no wont be leaving no time soon...so get use to me!!! and if you dont like what I say...when you see my name and post skip my post, thats all!!! But I will be here for a long time, a very long time!!! I didnt say yall was ridiculous I said it was funny how you all jump on the same bandwagon thats all. Once again if you dont like what I say , have one of the moderators BAN me or ask them to!!! have a nice night .


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## DaneMama

nupe said:


> OUCH!!! THAT HURT...and no wont be leaving no time soon...so get use to me!!! and if you dont like what I say...when you see my name and post skip my post, thats all!!! But I will be here for a long time, a very long time!!! I didnt say yall was ridiculous I said it was funny how you all jump on the same bandwagon thats all. Once again if you dont like what I say , have one of the moderators BAN me or ask them to!!! have a nice night .


Just cool it. You most certainly don't have to leave, that is completely on you. And you have yet to act in a way that will ban you from here. Only your actions will earn you being banned from here. 

Lets play nice unlike CM.


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## nupe

Tobi said:


> Or maybe... just maybe people think alike, and have similar training techniques that they prefer? I DON'T think he's good at what he does at all, working in a shelter you wouldn't believe how many dogs come in there hand shy, and awaiting an alpha roll because people were watching too much Caesar Milan.... the only thing that he and i could ever agree on is that dogs need plenty of exercise and care. If you don't add anything constructive to a thread why post in it? you are just trying to start arguments, and the fact that you say "uh oh i think i will have to go to the principals office again after, this post!!!" just proves it...



What constructive thing did you guys add to this post by all saying the same thing??...and he is abusing the dogs??..come on now!!!...this is just not one persons forum I dont care how long you been here and I will say what I want to say when I want to say it, as lomg as I am not disrespecting no one , whats the problem???


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## DaneMama

If there is one more post that ISN'T directly referring to discussing CM's techniques (or related)...I will close this thread.


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## Scarlett_O'

nupe said:


> LOL.....I love how you guys all jump on the same bandwagon and co sign each other. I saw that episode with the st bernard and thats not the whole episode that was posted, some of that was taken out of context.....I dont agree with all CM techniques....but I also dont think he is a dog abuser either!! LOL....You guys are something else...hey I got a question??..*besides the OP...who here thinks CM is good at what he does?* and agrees with some of his techniques?? Is there anyone else???................................UH OH I think I will have to go to the Principal office again after, this post!!!


To the question in bold:

HELLS YA, he is good, NO GREAT, at what he does! 

He(or whoever he pays) is a marketing GENIUS!!


As far as if he is a good trainer......no, that isnt even a fair question! 
That is like asking if a bully is a good hallway monitor because everyone cowers in fear when walking around and tries to stay hidden as to not be seen!!


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## HayleyMarie

Im not going to lie, but I can't stand his training techniqes. I am sure he is a nice guy and his heart is in the right place....but I would NEVER EVER use his training on my dogs and I cringe when I see someone else using his techniques, because mostly they dont know what they hell they are doing. I know if I tried any of his training on my soft bouvier, she would act like you broke hee heart and shut down. 

My SIL tried CM techniques on my terrier and guess who almost got bite??


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## nupe

HayleyMarie said:


> Im not going to lie, but I can't stand his training techniqes. I am sure he is a nice guy and his heart is in the right place....but I would NEVER EVER use his training on my dogs and I cringe when I see someone else using his techniques, because mostly they dont know what they hell they are doing. I know if I tried any of his training on my soft bouvier, she would act like you broke hee heart and shut down.
> 
> My SIL tried CM techniques on my terrier and guess who almost got bite??



May I ask which one of his techniques you are refering to?...i HAVE USE HIS TECHNIQUE TO STOP PULLING BEFORE IN THE PAST ..AND HIS TOUCHING TECHNIQUE ((NOT HITTING OR KICKING) , BUT jUST TOUCHING THE DOG TO GET HIM TO REFOCUS TECHNIQUE...AND BOTH HAVE WORKED GOOD FOR ME!!


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## Scarlett_O'

HayleyMarie said:


> Im not going to lie, but I can't stand his training techniqes. *I am sure he is a nice guy and his heart is in the right place*....but I would NEVER EVER use his training on my dogs and I cringe when I see someone else using his techniques, because mostly they dont know what they hell they are doing. I know if I tried any of his training on my soft bouvier, she would act like you broke hee heart and shut down.
> 
> My SIL tried CM techniques on my terrier and guess who almost got bite??


EHH...I have to HIGHLY disagree with this; for the simple fact that money hungry people, who are willing to sell lies to unknowing/ignorant people that harm the helpless creatures who are in their care....eh, I cant say that "Im sure that they are nice" or that "their hearts are in right place"! :tsk:hwell: And sadly there will ALWAYS be those people who, no matter how much that is there responcability to look into what they are training will just follow the word of someone who looks and acts like they know what to do!


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## DeekenDog

nupe said:


> LOL.....I love how you guys all jump on the same bandwagon and co sign each other. I saw that episode with the st bernard and thats not the whole episode that was posted, some of that was taken out of context.....I dont agree with all CM techniques....but I also dont think he is a dog abuser either!! LOL....You guys are something else...hey I got a question??..besides the OP...who here thinks CM is good at what he does? and agrees with some of his techniques?? Is there anyone else???................................UH OH I think I will have to go to the Principal office again after, this post!!!


I absolutely believe that Cesar Milan impacts a dog's behaviour. However, he achieves results using techniques that I am not comfortable using. Sometimes, the important thing in training isn't the behaviour that is produced in any one situation, its the reason behind the behaviour and the lasting effects it will have on your relationship with your dog. Have you ever read the book "The power of positive dog training"? McConnell gives an example of her own dog in the introduction to that book which, to me, perfectly illustrates the destruction of the dog-owner relationship that can result from Cesar's type of training. 

As an example, Deeken is really scared of the Dijon mustard bottle and runs whenever he sees it. This is not something I've bothered to work on because it doesn't have a huge impact on either of our lives. However, if I did want to get him to stop running from the mustard bottle, I could teach him using Milan's methods. This would mean, flooding him with the stimulus- i.e. forcing him to interact with the mustard bottle. Using this method, I could absolutely teach him that he is not allowed to run when he sees the bottle. However, the underlying reason for this change in behaviour would not be because he's not longer scared of it. If I force him to interact with it he learns that when he shows his fear of the bottle, I punish him, making me something that is scary when the there's a mustard bottle around. Do this in a few different situations, and suddenly, whether he can trust me to protect him from certain things becomes something he is unsure of. 

I could also teach Deeken not to run using positive reinforcement, which is the way I train. In this scenario, I slowly desensitize him to the mustard bottle, changing the associations he has with it using both food and functional rewards. I don't do anything in this scenario to damage my relationship with my dog because I'm not forcing him to do anything. Instead, we're working under threshold and I'm allowing him to work through something at his own pace and keeping it a positive, rewarding experience for him.

For me, the huge difference in these methods comes in the next time something really scary shows up. Using Cesar's techniques, I would be undermining my relationship with my dog and causing him not to trust me. This time, he's scared again, he's associated me with really negative things and I push him so far over threshold that he lashes out to protect himself. I've just taught him that the only way he can protect himself is to use his teeth- I don't let him run and I provide no protection so what else is he supposed to do?

Now, I've approached this using an example from fear based behaviour. It can be applied to behaviours based in other things as well. Cesar doesn't appear to understand the basis of many of these behaviours and uses techniques that are detrimental to the dog.


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## NewYorkDogue

Okay, this thread is starting to scare me a little. After it sort of took on a life of it's own , I felt like the "soft bouvier" referenced above and began to shut down...

Nevertheless---

I did say that I liked Cesar Millan, by that I mean his philosophies I had referenced earlier in the original post. I do not- and would not-employ his techniques in training (now, especially that I have been enlightened a bit on his heavy-handed approach and behind-the-scenes "out-takes" from the t.v. show- yikes). Plus, I have never had to deal with training- or owning- a difficult dog; and for that I feel blessed. But training is an important- and obviously an emotional issue- for us all that own and love our dogs, that is clear!

I don't believe in gurus- for training dogs, or anything else for that matter. Maybe no one person has all the "right" answers, and each person has to pick and choose from different training philosophies and techniques to achieve the optimum results for their individual situation.

Simply, I was looking for others' opinions, and was open to learning more. That's all.


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## Celt

SpooOwner said:


> I cringe when I hear people "tsch" their dogs like CM.


 Hate to say it here, but I've used "tsch" and similar sounds to "correct" my dogs. Only thing is, I've been using these sounds for much longer than CM has been on T.V. On the alpha roll thing, I couldn't ever understand how it came about. I've never seen a dog that wasn't out to kill the other "pin" an opponent on its back.


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## xellil

NewYorkDogue said:


> Okay, this thread is starting to scare me a little. After it sort of took on a life of it's own , I felt like the "soft bouvier" referenced above and began to shut down...
> 
> Nevertheless---
> 
> I did say that I liked Cesar Millan, by that I mean his philosophies I had referenced earlier in the original post. I do not- and would not-employ his techniques in training (now, especially that I have been enlightened a bit on his heavy-handed approach and behind-the-scenes "out-takes" from the t.v. show- yikes). Plus, I have never had to deal with training- or owning- a difficult dog; and for that I feel blessed. But training is an important- and obviously an emotional issue- for us all that own and love our dogs, that is clear!
> 
> I don't believe in gurus- for training dogs, or anything else for that matter. Maybe no one person has all the "right" answers, and each person has to pick and choose from different training philosophies and techniques to achieve the optimum results for their individual situation.
> 
> Simply, I was looking for others' opinions, and was open to learning more. That's all.


I understand that he is abusive. But that doesn't change the fact that I learned stuff from him. Rebel was a VERY DIFFICULT dog and it was from watching that TV show that I remembered to take deep breaths, relax my body etc. before we left the yard. It never dawned on me to try to use that other stuff. I didn't know it was bad, but I knew it was way beyond my abilities to roll Rebel on his back even if I wanted to.

In fact, to this day I've never rubbed Rebel on his stomach upside down. He doesn't like to be upside down. 

Frankly, I just feel very betrayed. I never dreamed he was being cruel. But I still use mental exercises that I learned from that TV show umpteen years ago, long before I ever knew I would need it. It probably makes me stupid for not seeing the mean in him, but I don't regret watching his show because in the end it changed the way I approach my dogs.


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## nupe

Celt said:


> Hate to say it here, but I've used "tsch" and similar sounds to "correct" my dogs. Only thing is, I've been using these sounds for much longer than CM has been on T.V. On the alpha roll thing, I couldn't ever understand how it came about. I've never seen a dog that wasn't out to kill the other "pin" an opponent on its back.


Why do you hate to say it here??,.,,,if it worked for you it worked for you, PERIOD!!! AND its all about what works for you and your dog, correct?


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## CorgiPaws

nupe said:


> Why do you hate to say it here??,.,,,if it worked for you it worked for you, PERIOD!!! AND its all about what works for you and your dog, correct?


I could have put a choke chain on Braxton, and dangled his body up into the car to teach him to get in it. 
It probably would have been effective. 

But, no, that's not what it's all about. 

Training is about mutual respect AND getting the behaviors you want. If you have done one without the other- you have failed as a trainer.


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## eternalstudent

Celt said:


> Hate to say it here, but I've used "tsch" and similar sounds to "correct" my dogs. Only thing is, I've been using these sounds for much longer than CM has been on T.V. On the alpha roll thing, I couldn't ever understand how it came about. *I've never seen a dog that wasn't out to kill the other "pin" an opponent on its back*.


My pup will do it if the other dog does not take the hint.

She will put the other dog on the deck with her mouth around the throat and hold for a moment. I posted it here on a thread a while back when she was dealing with a pretty unsocialised young lab that would not leave her be. 

It was impressive to watch as there was no bluster, no growl, bark and it happened so quickly and calmly. As soon as the other dog relaxed - and yes I could see it - then she would release.

I can easily see how people who have watched dogs thick they can replicate this. Would it work? I don't know I don't ever intend to find out. But what I will say is it happens so quick and easily I don't believe any human could carry it out in a way the other dog would understand.

As for the sounds used to correct; these have been in use since before the advent of telly so it might be that CM brought them into popular culture but we have all been using them. And will continue to do so.


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## nupe

PuppyPaws said:


> I could have put a choke chain on Braxton, and dangled his body up into the car to teach him to get in it.
> It probably would have been effective.
> 
> But, no, that's not what it's all about.
> 
> Training is about mutual respect AND getting the behaviors you want. If you have done one without the other- you have failed as a trainer.


I just disagree with somethings and as far as this discussion here I think CM does have some good techniques, some I have actually used. I dont see him as bad as alot of people here sees him.


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## maplewood

NewYorkDogue said:


> I don't believe in gurus- for training dogs, or anything else for that matter. Maybe no one person has all the "right" answers, and each person has to pick and choose from different training philosophies and techniques to achieve the optimum results for their individual situation.
> .


THIS!!! That is why a GOOD trainer/behavoirist will spend hundreds of hours studying. It's also why having other trainers in their court is important, I may not have the answer for a particular owners problem but I can and will call and ask other trainers if they have any ideas.


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## xellil

you know, my dog DOES have a real fear - our bathtub. He won't get near it. He will stick his head in the bathroom door but no further.

It's not a car and we don't have to go anywhere in the bathtub, so I solved that problem easily by just not giving him a bath.

Since he's pretty bald and I'm very lazy, that worked out well for both of us.

But Snorkels - how would I even know if she was afraid of the kitchen sink? I pick her up and plop her into it to give her a bath. She doesn't have an option to be fearful. And she doesn't show her fear by anything more than freezing up.


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## xellil

maplewood said:


> THIS!!! That is why a GOOD trainer/behavoirist will spend hundreds of hours studying. It's also why having other trainers in their court is important, I may not have the answer for a particular owners problem but I can and will call and ask other trainers if they have any ideas.


I agree. I believe I can learn something from everyone, and everything from no one. In the end, it's just me and my dog standing there looking at each other.


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## Liz

People in this forum are exceptional pet owners. They research and work with their pets. The vast majority of people are NOT willing to put time into teaching a dog how to climb steps one at a time with positive only reinforcement. Is that probably the best way - sure, will it happen with most owners - no way. They want the "dog fixed NOW" I have done home consultations and they spend three years screwing up a perfectly nice dog and want me to fix him in three visits. HUH? Really, yup! CM never claims to be a trainer he rehabilitates the unsalvagebale dog and solves behavior issues - quickly the way the majority of people want. We have a fearful young collie coming in. Will Cesar's methods be employed - probably the leadership, exercise, pack (yes, we do have a balanced pack), appropriate affection. He will also have a calm atmosphere, be able to get affection, have patience directed to him so he can learn and be gently exposed to new things daily. Every behaviorist/trainer has something you can learn. When I work with an agressive dog I most often bring him home for a time as that is the only way I can be sure to give him the balance and attention he needs to break the bad habits, after the initial issues are on their way to being resolved do they go back to their home and I work with their owners. People want a quick fix for everything. Let's put the blame where it really belongs - if pet owners cared enough they wouold be willing to do the work. They for the most part are not.


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## xchairity_casex

yes people get way to crazy when it comes to methods of dog training like ive said before people call me a horrable person when i make mention of cesar millan and enjoying his show and techniques and that i dare use some of them and even have the odassedy to inform other people on how to use some of them correctly as well.
this style of training would still be around even if cesar millan were not the one teaching it its not his fault if people use his techniques incorrectly or if they use them at all each trainer is useing the methods that work for them and what they do when they wrote books,create videos and tv shows is to give people information on what works for them how and why. i fin it sa and a little silly how people talk down to me becuase of what method i use. theres more then one way to train a dog and every dog is differant and has differant needs theres NO WAY only posative training works for every dog out there just like cesar millans methods will not work for every single dog out there which is why i combined posative reinforcment along with corrections for cesar.
i just dont understand how people can hate everything that cesar millan does i mean encouraging lots of excersize for all dogs not exluding small dogs,teaching people to never release frustration or anger out on there dogs, to not yell or scream at your dogs,to keep your dogs calm and relaxed to teach your dogs to respect your personal space as well as that of others and espeieclly that he teaches people to train the dog to respect babies and give them persoanl space as well i rarely see that taught in training books or training videos im not saying other trainers dont teach it but its not as ephisiszed the way cesar millan emphisizes it teaches people to not hold the lead tight i think all those things are very good things to be taught.
cant we all just get along with our own methods? i mean its so great to be able to have differant people on a single forum who all have knowledge with differant types of dog problems and differant approaches to those dog problems i think that is a wonderful thing!


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## swolek

Other posters have already summed up how I feel about him. So all I want to add is that if I tried his methods on our Cocker Spaniels they'd be traumatized and peeing everywhere...sensitive dogs are broken down by such harsh training methods and I've seen it happen before with rescues . Dogs who are afraid to even move for fear of "correction".

When I got my first dog, a Dachshund, he had a tendency to grab objects and guard them. Somewhere I read about dominance-based training and I stupidly tried some of the techniques. I made sure to exit the house before him, eat before him, not let him onto the couch, etc. It was completely ridiculous. When he took something I would catch him, practically choke him to remove the object, and then do an alpha roll. Guess what? Within days he went from being a dog who growled when guarding to a dog who BIT me for getting close to him when he was guarding. I quickly stopped the "alpha rolls" and luckily someone online told me about NILIF training. Employing those techniques I made a ton more progress. It also opened up the door to positive training which allowed me to teach him a fun "game" of "trade" . Even though it was for like three days I still feel ashamed for even believing the "dominance" crap. He wasn't dominating me, he was just guarding his fun new toy he had found. Ugh!

I've had people tell me that Milan's methods are necessary for challenging dogs and that my Cockers are just too soft and obedient already. I've now been fostering for a while and have had about twenty different foster dogs of various breeds. Many of them have had behavioral issues and you know what? I've never had to do an alpha roll to correct them . Most just genuinely didn't know what humans were expecting of them or needed a boost of confidence.


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## xchairity_casex

and you know what? cesar millan tells people NOT to alpha roll there dogs unless specifeclly directed by him he has never told people to alpha roll there dogs at home he tells them never to do it


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## whiteleo

xchairity_casex said:


> and you know what? cesar millan tells people NOT to alpha roll there dogs unless specifeclly directed by him he has never told people to alpha roll there dogs at home he tells them never to do it


It doesn't change the fact that ALL dogs do better with "positive reinforcement" training, Gee, you should know that owning a B.T!


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## taem

xchairity_casex said:


> and you know what? cesar millan tells people NOT to alpha roll there dogs unless specifeclly directed by him he has never told people to alpha roll there dogs at home he tells them never to do it


How many people can hire Cesar Millan though? How many people would hire a pro trainer, even if they had the money? I think that, no matter what Cesar says in the voiceover, once he shows that alpha roll, folks are gonna do the alpha roll. (Especially when the Monks of New Skete seem to say something similar in one of their books.) I know guys who would probably do it to timid dogs just because they want to think of themselves as the kind of guys who would and should own dogs who need to be alpha rolled. And we all know how frustrating dogs can be; and coercion is a quick salve for human frustration while positive reinforcement shaping can take forever. Unless you have a poodle. 

Like in the St Bernard case. Kikopup has a vid where a dog is terrified of the washer and barks non-stop when it runs. She uses treats over a period of days to help the dog conquer his fear. Cesar makes the dog run around the block and then drags it up the stairs. I think the Cesar Millan fans here would think Kikopup's method is superior. But which method is the average owner likely to turn to, if s/he's been told both are equally valid training methods? I think a significant number of folks might go with Cesar's tough love approach, because it's much faster and quicker gratification for the human. In a sense it's shaping for humans, if we tell ourselves we must never use coercion, we will be more patient and get better results with positive reinforcement; if we allow ourselves that escape hatch of coercion, there will be times we turn to it even if it's not needed.

I don't want to hate on Cesar; I know that guy knows so much more than I do, and I'm not prepared to say his methods are never needed. I simply don't know, I've never had to deal with a problematic dog. I'm sure there's a role for someone like Cesar Millan. But I feel strongly he's definitely not the guy who should have a tv show. Why doesn't Emily "Kikopup" Larlham have that tv show instead?


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## bernadettelevis

taem said:


> Why doesn't Emily "Kikopup" Larlham have that tv show instead?


I heard an interview with her once and she said that she doesn't want a tv show because there are so many rules and things to follow that she couldn't train the dogs the way she wants. It probably wouldn't sell.... sad but true....


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## xchairity_casex

whiteleo said:


> It doesn't change the fact that ALL dogs do better with "positive reinforcement" training, Gee, you should know that owning a B.T!


in MOST situations but not ALL. when i got cesar my bt i used JUST posative training treats,praise only and guess what? he would NOT respond to me he would not pay anny attention to me if i asked him to come he would flat out ignore me finally i sick of him ignoreing me and tried being firmer meaning what i said when i said it useing energy and guess wht? he responded and hes still responding. while my bf still uses only treats,praise and games to ge his attention cesar WILL NOT litsen to him for anything.
anyways im not going to argue why i do what i do or what i like and why i do like it all im going to say is my dog is NOT fearful of me and everyone has there own types of trainging that works for them why argue? whats the point in harrassing people for somthing like this?

people are not mindless zombies just becuase they see it done on tv doesnt mean they have to do is cesar millan holding guns to peopples heads? is he paying people to d this? no so if people use his methods (which most people use them wrong any ways) how can you say its his fault?? especielly when hes constantly saying dont try this that all dogs are differant ect??
what about youtube videos where peope do stunts or stupid things like attempt sword swallowing they dont come out and say "dont try this" so does that mean its there fault if some stupid person tries it themselves? what about that show mythbusters are you saying those people are morons and horrable becuase they have a tv show and some one might attempt to do those things?? it makes no sense like i said ebfore this is cesar millans method people ask him how he does what he does so he made a show showing people how he does what eh does other trainers write books vicotria stillwell also has a show showing what she does and how she does it these people are suppling the information that they know its not there fault if people dont do it correctly or listen when they say not to do it its the people who do its fault
good grief if its working for people and the dogs what is there to fight about??
all dogs are differant every dog respond differantly to differant training seriosuly how can you deny that??


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## taem

bernadettelevis said:


> I heard an interview with her once and she said that she doesn't want a tv show because there are so many rules and things to follow that she couldn't train the dogs the way she wants. It probably wouldn't sell.... sad but true....


I adore her. I've never met her, only email (she's very nice), but I feel I like owe her cash for her youtube vids. I think she should be charging for that stuff. That's not a feeling I get very often when I'm looking at youtube lol.


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## bernadettelevis

taem said:


> I adore her. I've never met her, only email (she's very nice), but I feel I like owe her cash for her youtube vids. I think she should be charging for that stuff. That's not a feeling I get very often when I'm looking at youtube lol.


that's true. Her videos showed me that only positive reinforcement is the way to go!!!!


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## committed2excellence

Interesting thread. Having been featured in a dog training DVD series, I will say that you must remember a lot of editing goes on on the cutting room floor. There are NO trainers who allow you to see everything. DVDs wouldn't sell if they did


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## Celt

I can see both positive and negative in CM's "training" style (he consistently says he's not a trainer). On another thread for a "fearful" dog, people are reccommending that you should have people ignore the dog which is similar to CM's No touch, No Talk. No look that he has told many people to use with nervous/unsure/scared dogs. His style is more "in your face" with a majority of "problem" behavior, but he also does have a "quieter" style that he uses as well. In one of his puppy raising book, he collaborates with other trainers, including Dunbar. 

I never said that dogs don't pin other dogs, but (except for youngish pups) they generally pin by grabbing the side of the neck and pushing down. The one being pin then either relaxes, turning their lower body a bit to expose the belly or struggles and it escalates. Ocassionally, I've seen an older one pin a younger one by the back of the neck. I'm not explaining this very well <sigh> meds mess with your head <sigh>


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## xchairity_casex

Celt said:


> I never said that dogs don't pin other dogs, but (except for youngish pups) they generally pin by grabbing the side of the neck and pushing down. The one being pin then either relaxes, turning their lower body a bit to expose the belly or struggles and it escalates. Ocassionally, I've seen an older one pin a younger one by the back of the neck. I'm not explaining this very well <sigh> meds mess with your head <sigh>


dogs dont physically grab and throw another dog on the ground unless its in play or trying to kill it a dog will exspose itself to another dog who is exhibitihng a stronger energy 9the more dominant dog) a mother dog will physically knock,pin or roll her pups over to condition them to the exsperience.


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## Tobi

xchairity_casex said:


> in MOST situations but not ALL. when i got cesar my bt i used JUST posative training treats,praise only and guess what? he would NOT respond to me he would not pay anny attention to me if i asked him to come he would flat out ignore me finally i sick of him ignoreing me and tried being firmer meaning what i said when i said it useing energy and guess wht? he responded and hes still responding. while my bf still uses only treats,praise and games to ge his attention cesar WILL NOT litsen to him for anything.
> anyways im not going to argue why i do what i do or what i like and why i do like it all im going to say is my dog is NOT fearful of me and everyone has there own types of trainging that works for them why argue? whats the point in harrassing people for somthing like this?
> 
> people are not mindless zombies just becuase they see it done on tv doesnt mean they have to do is cesar millan holding guns to peopples heads? is he paying people to d this? no so if people use his methods (which most people use them wrong any ways) how can you say its his fault?? especielly when hes constantly saying dont try this that all dogs are differant ect??
> what about youtube videos where peope do stunts or stupid things like attempt sword swallowing they dont come out and say "dont try this" so does that mean its there fault if some stupid person tries it themselves? what about that show mythbusters are you saying those people are morons and horrable becuase they have a tv show and some one might attempt to do those things?? it makes no sense like i said ebfore this is cesar millans method people ask him how he does what he does so he made a show showing people how he does what eh does other trainers write books vicotria stillwell also has a show showing what she does and how she does it these people are suppling the information that they know its not there fault if people dont do it correctly or listen when they say not to do it its the people who do its fault
> good grief if its working for people and the dogs what is there to fight about??
> all dogs are differant every dog respond differantly to differant training seriosuly how can you deny that??


The problem is putting magical methods like this on national television... humans instinctively think that they know it all... they just seem to think they can replicate the results that they saw on t.v. There is a reason that those warnings are put there in the first place, it's because people have tried all too much to replicate results they saw on television... I have seen first hand the damage that this type of training can cause, I've also been bitten because of it, and the dog was PTS because of it's fearfulness when on a lead which was addressed by the owner with CM techniques, this was all in her surrender statement.

You can't really compare Mythbusters and dog training... apples and oranges... people have dogs, people don't have $50,000 to go blow on a wasteful experiment.

Victoria Stillwell uses methods that i can honestly appreciate, she uses positive reinforcement, and teaches the dog new behaviors, she doesn't force it into submission.

I can also say that having had bully breeds in my life, and having been around hundreds of other dogs, my BT is by far the most challenging dog I've every encountered... positive reinforcement for this breed is a must IMO. If it doesn't work, you're doing it wrong...


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## xchairity_casex

Tobi said:


> The problem is putting magical methods like this on national television... humans instinctively think that they know it all... they just seem to think they can replicate the results that they saw on t.v. There is a reason that those warnings are put there in the first place, it's because people have tried all too much to replicate results they saw on television... I have seen first hand the damage that this type of training can cause, I've also been bitten because of it, and the dog was PTS because of it's fearfulness when on a lead which was addressed by the owner with CM techniques, this was all in her surrender statement.
> 
> You can't really compare Mythbusters and dog training... apples and oranges... people have dogs, people don't have $50,000 to go blow on a wasteful experiment.
> 
> Victoria Stillwell uses methods that i can honestly appreciate, she uses positive reinforcement, and teaches the dog new behaviors, she doesn't force it into submission.
> 
> I can also say that having had bully breeds in my life, and having been around hundreds of other dogs, my BT is by far the most challenging dog I've every encountered... positive reinforcement for this breed is a must IMO. If it doesn't work, you're doing it wrong...



trust me i AM doing it right and he does respond to posative training when he wants to and there not somthing better becuase i DO use posative reinforcfment to teach him to sit,lie down,heel, ect if i have to get firm like if i give him a lead jerk and he responds i praise him profously

and im sorry but mythbusters actually had a show where people sent in ideas of there own creations. and i hate to keep sounding like a broken record but i watch the show ive seen every episode from seson 1-6 nd i can tell you personally the in episodes where cesar millan is dealing with these dogs HE HIMSELF not the warning in the begining of the show but while he is ACTUALLY WORKING WITH THE DOG on the show not narration HIM HIMSELF will say to people watching at home "do not try this the reason i am able to get these results is becuase of my years of exsperience DONOT TRY this yourself" and he repetes himself over and over again the entire time he is working with these perticularly dangerous or fearful dogs he also talks again and again telling people to contact a local behaviorlist for help dealing with issues like those.
of coarse if youve only seen one or two shows youd not reliaze this but trust me he does i own sesaons 1-5 on dvd and have seen them all a dozen times

im not trying to convince people to like him all im asking is that people NOT critisize or harrass people like me who use this and also it would be nice if people were a little bit more open minded this isnt a matter of the world ending why get so uptight about it? whats the point in harrassing people over what they do or dont do becuase it doesnt conform to what you like or do or think is best? just becuase it works for you doesnt mean its the best and only thing that will ever work


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## catahoulamom

My breed of choice are catahoula leopard dogs (obviously, teehee) and recently when looking through some different pages online I came across this breeder's website. Now, most catahoula breeders are not what I could consider good breeders. They breed the dogs with only working ability in mind (boar hunting), and when you look at pictures of their dogs the nails are often very overgrown, and the dogs are almost always tied up on a chain in the yard and filthy. I clicked on the "training" link and was surprised when I came across this: 



> This breed requires positive, reward-based training, good socialization and consistency, and is often not the best choice for inexperienced dog owners. Catahoulas are strong-willed, intelligent, and many seem to have a penchant for mischief.
> 
> Despite their grit and athletic, sometimes imposing exterior, the Blair-bred Catahoula has a sensitive side. Excessively harsh training methods that might be tolerated by a hound or other working dog will likely backfire on a Catahoula. For this reason, I do not own a shock collar. The Catahoula accepts correction as long as it is fair and justified, and as long as it comes from someone he knows and trusts.
> 
> I cannot stress this enough: "rough treatment ... should never be administered to these dogs, especially when they are young. They become very shy and elusive with handling of that kind." If you are too harsh they will squat and piss and may never go out and do what you are hoping which is to become a strong proud hunter.


I think every breed of dog deserves gentle and fair treatment (and positive reinforcement), but it was reassuring to see that even the toughest working dog breeder agrees that positive reinforcement is the way to go. I have a reactive, very sensitive catahoula and this (coming from an expert of the breed) just reassures the notion that Finnigan would be a MESS if Caesar ever got a hold of him. Sorry if this was slightly off-topic.


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## whiteleo

I agree, that all breeds deserve "just and fair treatment" I know that with my breed of choice, stubborness is in their genetics and a very endearing part of the breed. If you get too harsh with a B.T. they will just shut down and then you have gotten no where. They cannot endure hrs. of training, it's not in their makeup.
They would rather run off and make fun and games and do something to make their owners laugh.


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## Tobi

xchairity_casex said:


> trust me i AM doing it right and he does respond to posative training when he wants to and there not somthing better becuase i DO use posative reinforcfment to teach him to sit,lie down,heel, ect if i have to get firm like if i give him a lead jerk and he responds i praise him profously
> 
> and im sorry but mythbusters actually had a show where people sent in ideas of there own creations. and i hate to keep sounding like a broken record but i watch the show ive seen every episode from seson 1-6 nd i can tell you personally the in episodes where cesar millan is dealing with these dogs HE HIMSELF not the warning in the begining of the show but while he is ACTUALLY WORKING WITH THE DOG on the show not narration HIM HIMSELF will say to people watching at home "do not try this the reason i am able to get these results is becuase of my years of exsperience DONOT TRY this yourself" and he repetes himself over and over again the entire time he is working with these perticularly dangerous or fearful dogs he also talks again and again telling people to contact a local behaviorlist for help dealing with issues like those.
> of coarse if youve only seen one or two shows youd not reliaze this but trust me he does i own sesaons 1-5 on dvd and have seen them all a dozen times
> 
> im not trying to convince people to like him all im asking is that people NOT critisize or harrass people like me who use this and also it would be nice if people were a little bit more open minded this isnt a matter of the world ending why get so uptight about it? whats the point in harrassing people over what they do or dont do becuase it doesnt conform to what you like or do or think is best? just becuase it works for you doesnt mean its the best and only thing that will ever work


Nobody is harassing you, it's a public forum, nobody said you were a bad person for using such methods... you're acting as if I'm attacking you but my post clearly states otherwise. Just because somebody doesn't conform to methods that I'd prefer makes no bearing on my life whatsoever, i couldn't give a damn about how people train their dogs... so long as the dog isn't around me, or giving the breed a bad reputation from improper handling and training (not that i'm saying you're doing that, don't think i'm attacking you). 

I've seen numerous episodes, and seasons of his show and i still don't like how he does it (leash jerking, thumping dogs with his foot to provoke a response, alpha rolling etc...) 

I've had too much success and fun with more *fun* methods of training and working with dogs.


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## DogLuver

I've seen some episodes of his show, and I've learned a thing or two...but there are techniques he uses that I don't agree with, and having well behaved dogs, I've never found reason to even think about those techniques. I pick and choose from his shows, or from any trainer for that matter, what techniques I believe will work, and what will not work, or is unnecessary....so often there is a better way.

I am always firm with my dogs, because I want them to think of me as the "pack leader", which I believe I've accomplished. I have very obedient, but cheerful dogs. Any training that I do, I enjoy using positive enforcement, but if my dog needs to be corrected, I'm not opposed to "correcting" him, even with the "tscht" sound lol (also something I did before Cesar Millan shows). My idea of correction is changing my tone of voice to a deeper, lower, more serious voice, and looking into my dogs eyes with a serious face. I also try to "feel" anger when my dogs do something wrong, I believe they can sense things like that, and they can react without me having to take any action at all. I would not use contact to correct my dogs, I don't see the need, but again I've never owned difficult dogs. I do use the "squeaky" voice when giving positive reinforcement....my dogs like it lol, and definitely react well to it (I sometimes annoy myself with that voice)

I spend way more time giving positive reinforcement while training than correcting....it makes the entire process funner for both me and the dogs. And having sensitive breed's (Golden Retriever, and Great Dane) they really strive on the positive reinforcement. 

Whomever mentioned Victoria StilWell, thank you! I was watching some of her episodes on YouTube, and they prove to be helpful.

I can't completely knock Cesar Millan, I have definitely learned some things from him. But I don't live by his ideas, suggestions, or methods that's for sure, and like others have said, there are SOOOO many people watching this show, with no knowledge that can do damage to perfectly good dogs with his techniques, and THAT is unfortunate


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## xellil

DogLuver said:


> I spend way more time giving positive reinforcement while training than correcting....it makes the entire process funner for both me and the dogs. And having sensitive breed's (Golden Retriever, and Great Dane) they really strive on the positive reinforcement.


When Rebel and I were in the novice dog class, I found it interesting that the trainer had to constantly tell people to praise their dogs. You would think that would come more naturally for people. I guess it's like with human children - sometimes we only notice when they are doing wrong, and not noticing enough when they are doing right.


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## xchairity_casex

im sorry if i get a little...well BEH! about all of this i havent directly been attacked here but i have however been attack elsewere directly to the point that it made me question myself i felt very disapointed hearing so many people calling me a horrable person or a terrable dog owner along with others who had the same ideas as me. especeilly when ive yet to hear a esar millan fan harrass a none cesar millan fan it seems like most of the posative reinfocment trainers hate everyone who dont do what they say all i would like to see is everyone except and be open to all methods of training so long as its not harming anyone.

@dogluver
thats exactly wht i do too!! i dont just use all of cesar millans methods i dont to the tsh sound i use "AH" the the only things ive used lead jerks for were when he first came into the house and he began trying to go after my 3 elderly cats i kept a lead on him i would say "AH" when he would go after them if he didnt listen and would corne them i would grab up the lead give it a jerk and say"AH" in a sharp voice i didnt even use a choke chain just his regular collar ive never liked choke chains.
the next time i used the lead jerk was when he would try attacking the vaccum he would get so intense over it he would take nips at anyone nearby i put the lead on him and say "AH" while giving a jerk took one jerk and he came over to me all wiggly so i praised him and gave him lots of hugs. next time i used the lead jerk was whenon walks he would scopp out bear,deer and other animal droppings and eat them kept the lead attatched the second he would go for poop i would say "AH" and jerk. he now knows that when i say "AH" it means stop what your doing i have lately been teaching him to give me his ball a ball he is SO totally intense with once hes got it its like he has NO clue anyone is there its like he cant hear you he cant see you all he wants is that ball if you put your hand on it he would grab your hand to get to the ball not to be aggressive just he had no idea he was so fixated on that ball so what i started doing was ill reach down slowly for the ball and use my leg or my arm in front of his chest and make him take a step back if he lunges forward ill say AH and slowly pick the ball up everytime he lunges forward or trys to grab it i say AH and stop moving and wait to lift it higher untill he would stop took me 2 days of doing that now when i walk over to that ball he takes 3 steps back and waits for me to pick it up and throw it if i were to praise him and get him excited in that moment he would grab for the ball again so his reward is my throwing the ball for him. i use treats and praise all the time with almost everything only those few instantcens i dont and it works ialso didntu se treats to teach him to give things to me i tried but he ignored them so i would walk up to him and say give it and mentally project a calm but demanding energy i wanted it thats all if he tugged on it i would say in a deeper voice "give it" and scowl at him untill after a few tries he realized oh i have to let the toy go once he let it go i would praise him and then give him a treat then give him his toy back. and now if he has somthign he isnt supposed to have evn if its food and i ask him to come over and give it to me he will walk right on iver to me and drop it in my hand then be all wiggly waggly and get lots of pet and hugs.

@xellil yeh it seems like commen sense i always get aqueely and jump around and say OH GOOD BOY! whenever cesar does somthing even simple things hes done a million times before! even while we are out on walks just me and the dogs if we walk past another dog thats barkign and ging nuts even though cesar has been taught not to pull toward other dogs or get excited about other dogs on walks and has listend to me on that for 5 months ive ahd him i STILL praise him when we walk past a barking dog its like oh good for you! like when my sister goes on walks with me and the dogs she will yell at her dog to come then not praise her when seh does its like i STILL praise her when she comes to me and ive been walking her off elad for almost 2 years now!!


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## biancaDB

A little off topic, but still in the Cesar boat...

I skimmed through the October issue of Cesar Millan's magazine today at work (a bunch got wrote off because nobody buys them here) and noticed an article about what to feed your dog. Within this article, there's a little section about raw feeding. Although the attempt to educate people about raw feeding is present, they sort of messed some things up.... Here are some quotes,

"...feeding a raw or home prepared diet is more costly and time consuming than feeding your dog commercial pet foods ....the benefits are worth the price" (a little misleading, considering if done properly...raw is cheaper than kibble correct?)

"dangers ranging from salmonella to splintered bones to all manner of parasites and microbes- as well as numerous strains of e-coli - make it necessary to proceed with caution."

"Purchase the freshest, highest quality meat you can find, remove those bones and make sure your dog is still getting his share of fiber, vitamins and other nutrients" (correct me if I'm wrong but bones are a major part in a raw diet !!)

thoughts??


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## Ania's Mommy

biancaDB said:


> "...feeding a raw or home prepared diet is more costly and time consuming than feeding your dog commercial pet foods ....the benefits are worth the price" (a little misleading, considering if done properly...raw is cheaper than kibble correct?)


It depends on where you live and what you feed. 

If you feed your dog a lot of exotic meat, it'll probably cost you. 

In my area (and because I belong to an awesome co-op), I am feeding Ania for probably about the same cost as when we fed Orijen. And all of this stuff is grass-fed, hormone/antibiotic free meat. Better than the grocery store stuff my husband & I get (of course, we get better cuts of meat :wink 

Some people have great places they can bulk order from for cheeeaaappp and are able to have their overall cost at less than $1/lb. 

Some people don't have access to those types of things, and have to spend an arm and a leg. It all depends. But for the most part, I would say that feeding raw CAN be less expensive than feeding a GOOD kibble. 



> "dangers ranging from salmonella to splintered bones to all manner of parasites and microbes- as well as numerous strains of e-coli - make it necessary to proceed with caution."


I think you'd have to try pretty darn hard to actually splinter a raw bone. And you'd need help from a blade of some sort. Cooked bones? Yes, they can splinter and be dangerous. So just don't feed them. :becky:

Parasites & microbes?? The only parasite I'd worry about is Chronic Wasting Disease from venison, and Salmon Poisoning Disease from Pacific NW area salmon. So, I don't feed the brains of venison or salmon from the PNW. So I don't worry. 



> "Purchase the freshest, highest quality meat you can find, remove those bones and make sure your dog is still getting his share of fiber, vitamins and other nutrients" (correct me if I'm wrong but bones are a major part in a raw diet !!)


Well whatdya know? I agree! But only with the part about purchasing the freshest, highest quality meat you can afford. But yes, you should feed the uncooked bones. Bone acts as the fiber, so you need it. And if you're feeding meat, bones, and organs from a variety of animals, you'll have all the vitamins and nutrients you need! 



> thoughts??


It sounds like the article is promoting more of a BARF-type diet here. No bones, adding vitamins... 

Doesn't CM have a line of dog food? Or at least endorse some brand? I can't remember for sure because it's been a very long time since I've made it into a Petco. If either of these are true, it would be to his benefit to keep dogs on kibble (namely, his), right? Propaganda!!


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## Liz

There are not alot of people who really study nutrition and are open to alternatives. Just the sheer numbers he feeds would be daunting to say nothing of the visiting and boarded dogs he has. Plus I am sure he recieves donation so in that case raw would definately be more costly. There is a puppy evaluator in Oregon who constantly states that raw is awful for growing pups and causes all sorts of bone deformities and growth damage. Believe pups should all be on mid grade kibble as high end kibble is to high in ??? Anyway she does a lot of damage spouting of that which she doesn't understand. I laways take what is said publicly with a grain of salt and research for myself though many, many don't and that is a shame. I don't blame "celebrity types" but those owners who take the easy way out because someone said so. Although we go by the rule "just because you THINK you know the answer doesn't mean it is yours to give.":wink:


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## biancaDB

Ania's Mommy said:


> Doesn't CM have a line of dog food? Or at least endorse some brand? I can't remember for sure because it's been a very long time since I've made it into a Petco. If either of these are true, it would be to his benefit to keep dogs on kibble (namely, his), right? Propaganda!!


I believe he does have kibble with his name on it! Pretty much the whole article was kibble oriented with that little section about raw feeding. Again, at least they made it an option but I feel like they didn't really highlight too many of the pros of a raw diet! I also see the BARF promoting more now that you mentioned it/ I had a second look


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## Maxy24

He has his own water too


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## Jack Monzon

I saw Cesar feeding raw in a recent episode. He was working on a nasty case of resource guarding and said something about feeding all the dogs at his Center raw a few times per week.

I like Cesar. I do cringe at the thought of every yahoo out there trying alpha rolls and the like, but there's no denying he's awesome with dogs and knows his subject matter completely. He's especially good with fearful dogs. I've learned a ton from him with my own fearful dog.


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## Dude and Bucks Mamma

I am going to put my opinion before I read any of the responses. 

I agree with his concepts of immense patience when working with dogs and that the best way to get a dog through something it fears or dislikes is to get it focused on something like a treat or it's work (ie, jogging at a brisk pace past, say, a bicycle, if the dog doesn't like them or, for me, I throw Buck into a stack and let him nibble on a treat in my hand). It gets their focus off of what is frightening them. What I don't agree on is how he goes about it. He puts dogs on a treadmill and floods them with what scares them. Or running them through a crowded street when they are frightened of people.

He also seems to think that dogs are all the same. One size fits all. If I tried to train Buck the same way I trained Dude, I would be puling my hair out because Buck would be a nightmare. With Dude, I would force him (firmly but gently) to do something he didn't want to do, be it learning to sit, lay down, stay, swim in the pool or at the beach, ANYTHING then reward him once I physically made him do it. Once he figured out that there was a treat afterwards, he would gladly do it all day long with wagging tail. Once he understands the concept of something and sees that he will benefit from doing it, it is simple to get him to do something. He is a happy dog who is very willing to please. Buck, on the other hand, while extremely food motivated, won't do something he doesn't want to do. I have had to figure out how to convince him that he DOES want to do it. Forcing Buck to do something would likely lead to problems later. Convincing him is the key. WAY different than Dude.

He also withholds praise. The dogs would do what he wanted and he was very cold towards them even then. When my dogs do something right, they get lavished with praise. I want them to know that what they just did was good. Ignoring them isn't going to get me anywhere with them.

I could go on but I think I will stop.


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## magicre

biancaDB said:


> A little off topic, but still in the Cesar boat...
> 
> I skimmed through the October issue of Cesar Millan's magazine today at work (a bunch got wrote off because nobody buys them here) and noticed an article about what to feed your dog. Within this article, there's a little section about raw feeding. Although the attempt to educate people about raw feeding is present, they sort of messed some things up.... Here are some quotes,
> 
> "...feeding a raw or home prepared diet is more costly and time consuming than feeding your dog commercial pet foods ....the benefits are worth the price" (a little misleading, considering if done properly...raw is cheaper than kibble correct?)
> 
> "dangers ranging from salmonella to splintered bones to all manner of parasites and microbes- as well as numerous strains of e-coli - make it necessary to proceed with caution."
> 
> "Purchase the freshest, highest quality meat you can find, remove those bones and make sure your dog is still getting his share of fiber, vitamins and other nutrients" (correct me if I'm wrong but bones are a major part in a raw diet !!)
> 
> thoughts??


this from the same guy who fed daddy raw? and was in the midst of switching all of his dogs to raw?


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## magicre

biancaDB said:


> I believe he does have kibble with his name on it! Pretty much the whole article was kibble oriented with that little section about raw feeding. Again, at least they made it an option but I feel like they didn't really highlight too many of the pros of a raw diet! I also see the BARF promoting more now that you mentioned it/ I had a second look


he allowed his name to be put on a line of food...but i don't much see it anymore....

he started feeding raw before daddy died...


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## malluver1005

Really? CM feeds raw??


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## Dude and Bucks Mamma

CavePaws said:


> This is from the dogs state of mind? Really? What is so similar about the way he is dragging that dog up the stairs with a choke chain to anything a dog is thinking or in the state of mind to do? The fact is, he isn't doing anything but making the stairs a more unpleasant experience. I'm disgusted by that video, and it was only the first one I clicked to watch.
> 
> 9-St_Bernard_Riley (Abuse).flv - YouTube
> 
> He says address the dog first but in this video you hear him say that it is typical of large breed dogs to use their weight against him. Well DUH, dumby...You're trying to drag that dog up the stairs that he is very afraid of. ANY behaviorist or good trainer will tell you that Cesar Millans methods are archaic and barbaric. Most trainers would approach this from a counter conditioning and desensitization angle. NOT simply drag the dog up the stairs on a choke chain. That is not training; dragging a dog up the stairs on a choke chain is abusive and teaches them nothing but to not trust you OR the stairs.


I had to do this with Dude when we first moved to Washington. It was horrible. Dude used to be just like this St. He was terrified of going up stairs. He grew up as an outside dog and after years of pleading (I didn't know when I got him in the 8th grade that my mom was going to condemn him to be an outside dog since the others were all inside) she started letting me bring him inside at night so he could sleep in my bedroom. Problem. He wouldn't go up the stairs. After about 5 days and many, MANY rounds of treats I could get him to go up the stairs, albeit awkwardly (he tends to lunge up the stairs and jumps up the 2 we have out back altogether). No dragging, no fuss. Just lots of patience. 

When we moved up here though, we were staying with some friends in their... upstairs apartment. The stairs were concrete and outside. I didn't expect any problems but they must have been so different from other staircases he had been up that he went back to square one. We got there in the middle of the night in the middle of December. He is an 80 lb dog and I am 4'11. Maybe I could lift 80 lbs but he is too big (size rather than weight) and the stairs were icy. If I had been able to, I would have carried him up the stairs and worked with him the over the next few days just like I did at home. After a 36 hour drive... I didn't have 5 days to get him used to the stairs. One thing I did differently was to fashion him a harness rather than drag him up by his neck. I did manage to get him up the stairs but I felt horrible afterwards. He didn't act any differently around me or anything but I felt terrible for treating him that way.

We did go out over the next few days and get used to stairs the REAL way though! By the time we had our apartment, he lunged up and down the icy stairs like they were the staircase at my moms  I'm just glad that I'll probably never be in a middle of the night, middle of winter, unfamiliar, outdoor, icy staircase situation again!


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## Dude and Bucks Mamma

JayJayisme said:


> Living all my life in Los Angeles, and having been involved in "the industry", i.e. Hollywood, here and there over the years, I've learned to take everything I see on TV with a grain of salt. It's 99.9% B.S. I wouldn't be surprised at all to find out that "The Dog Whisperer" is any different. Anything made for television isn't going to represent reality. And that includes the six o'clock news!
> 
> But, take the TV element away and just read a couple of CM's books and I think you'd have a different opinion. It's my belief that CM is okay at his core, and he really does have a clear and sane view of dog behavior, but that the presentation of his methods have been perverted by television. TV is a double-edged sword. If you have a crusade and want to reach the masses with your message, television will get you there. But if you want to keep that going, you are eventually going to have to "make a deal with the devil" and cave in against your standards eventually for the sake of "good TV", and you as the "personality" on the show will have little say in the matter. It's a constant struggle of trying to walk a fine line between what is right, and what will keep your show on the air.
> 
> There are many positive aspects of the lessons on his show although I'm not condoning some of the stuff he's done. If, at the very least, the mouth-breathing masses come away from the show understanding one thing; that dogs aren't people, that is a good thing. All I'm saying is that before you crucify CM, read one of his books. I think books more closely reflect the reality and true belief of the author, because the author has more control over them then he/she does in a TV show.


Maybe that's true. I have one of his books but bought it year ago and never read it. But you have to think... How many people are going to choose to go out and buy the book to read it when they probably think they can get all of that information from his show?



doggiedad said:


> i think you changed your tune now that you see so many people
> diapprove of his methods. if you think his methods are so good
> why don't you employ them??
> 
> what do you mean "people need more training than the dog", that
> doesn't make any sence. if a person needs more training than
> a dog they shouldn't have a dog or anything else.


From that I got that people need more training than the dogs as in: dogs are dogs and people need to know how to understand them and learn what drives them and causes them to do certain things. Is it Dude's fault that he was afraid of stairs? No. It was my fault because he wasn't exposed to stairs until he was 6 years old. I should have been teaching him how to go up the stairs as a pup so that he wouldn't be afraid of them as an adult.



nupe said:


> LOL.....I love how you guys all jump on the same bandwagon and co sign each other. I saw that episode with the st bernard and thats not the whole episode that was posted, some of that was taken out of context.....I dont agree with all CM techniques....but I also dont think he is a dog abuser either!! LOL....You guys are something else...hey I got a question??..besides the OP...who here thinks CM is good at what he does? and agrees with some of his techniques?? Is there anyone else???................................UH OH I think I will have to go to the Principal office again after, this post!!!


I do not think he is good at what he does. He uses aggression against aggression which usually causes more aggression. He is great at getting a dog to do what he wants it to do in the moment but that kind of training does not produce lasting results. You want a dog who loves to do what you want him to do and not a dog who does what you want because he is afraid. That dog is likely to lash out one day in self defense. I have no doubt that if I had trained Dude using the dragging method, he would still be afraid of stairs to this day and would lash out when he saw stairs.


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## Dude and Bucks Mamma

Spent yesterday disciplining Buck with "dog bites to the neck" (jabbing his neck) and saying "Tsst!" to see how he would react and he dropped into play mode EVERY time. It was too funny. Maybe he could tell I wasn't serious about it but it just goes to show that his methods are clearly not "one size fits all". My pup thinks that Cesar's way of disciplining is a cue to play vigorously.


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## KittyKat

Dude and Bucks Mamma said:


> Spent yesterday disciplining Buck with "dog bites to the neck" (jabbing his neck) and saying "Tsst!" to see how he would react and he dropped into play mode EVERY time. It was too funny. Maybe he could tell I wasn't serious about it but it just goes to show that his methods are clearly not "one size fits all". My pup thinks that Cesar's way of disciplining is a cue to play vigorously.


Dogs aren't stupid, they can read your emotions very easily.


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## xchairity_casex

not suprisingly if your not taking it seriously then the dog wont either i got this very old dog to play like that once the owners basically called her a vegtable she was a bernese mountian dog mix the owners were 
older and ddint excersize her only fed her treats she was super overweight and all she basically could do was lie there all day but i began to just take my fingers like a mouth and nip at her neck omg she spun in circles and bounced around the owners were in awe


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## Dude and Bucks Mamma

KittyKat said:


> Dogs aren't stupid, they can read your emotions very easily.


Never said they were. I started out seriously but it was hard to remain that way when he dropped down and acted like what I did was the most fun thing in the world.


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## DogLuver

This thread was a very good conversation! I love how my dogs can read my emotions! That's probably one thing that I think CM is good at, is getting the point across that your dogs feel your fear/anxiety/anger and such...some people don't realize how in tune they are with our emotions, and that some peoples fear/anger creates different behaviors in dogs.

Some days my dogs know how I'm feeling better than I do. Yesterday I had a real hard day at work, had a fight with my boss, but then forgot about it in the afternoon...I guess it stayed with me, because when i went home, I felt....bothered, anxious, uneasy? Like I hadn't got something off my chest. My dogs SMOTHERED me, usually they want to play, but they were both following me around, when I finally sat down, they both tried to crawl into my lap and kept pushing my head with their noses, as if to say "you can lean on me" lol. I know I make some of this up in my own head, but I definitely believe that my dogs react to my feelings...you should see them when I cry! This is why dog make better friends than people IMO, they genuinely care


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## Missy Mae

biancaDB said:


> I believe he does have kibble with his name on it!


He does have a food with his name on it, or did the last time I was in Petco. Here is the link to the review on the food and the ingredients Dog Food Reviews - Dog Whisperer by Cesar Millan Canine Adult Formula Dog Food - Powered by ReviewPost


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## hmbutler

Missy Mae said:


> He does have a food with his name on it, or did the last time I was in Petco. Here is the link to the review on the food and the ingredients Dog Food Reviews - Dog Whisperer by Cesar Millan Canine Adult Formula Dog Food - Powered by ReviewPost


It's made with ORGANIC ingredients, it MUST be good!!! [/sarcasm]


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## meggels

hmbutler said:


> It's made with ORGANIC ingredients, it MUST be good!!! [/sarcasm]




It's got a pretty good ingredient list though, surprisingly....


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## minnieme

I'm with Meggels...I was actually pretty (pleasantly) surprised. Obviously not stellar, but not the worst of the worst either. Unfortunately, it still doesn't make me like the guy... :wink:


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## hmbutler

minnieme said:


> Unfortunately, it still doesn't make me like the guy... :wink:


Lol yep, I don't care whats in it, I dont like him lol


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