# Carrion Breath



## Celt (Dec 27, 2010)

Both of my boys' breaths smell horrendous. If you've ever smelled carrion, that's my boys' breath. They never had "stinky" breath before starting raw. I was hoping the smell would go away but , nope, even with brushing the smell is there. Although the brushing does help. Any ideas, on why this could be?


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

my dogs' breath smells like lamb and goat..when they eat that...

..but not carrion....

is it possible there's something caught in their teeth that needs to be picked out?


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## Celt (Dec 27, 2010)

I haven't seen anything, but it could be a possiblity. I'm going to check that right now.


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## Scarlett_O' (May 19, 2011)

I would also wonder about things stuck....my Rhett and Leo both get crap stuck all the time!LOL Rhett rubs his face like crazy when he does.....Leo just sits there breathing on Daddy till he cleans out his mouth for him!!LOL :lol: :laugh:


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## whiteleo (Sep 7, 2008)

I know that when my dogs ate chicken all the time they had awful breath, once they got past the chicken stage and onto other proteins the smell subsided. I very rarely feed chicken so the smell hasn't come back, but that is just a thought!


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## jdatwood (Apr 13, 2009)

whiteleo said:


> I know that when my dogs ate chicken all the time they had awful breath, once they got past the chicken stage and onto other proteins the smell subsided. I very rarely feed chicken so the smell hasn't come back, but that is just a thought!


On the flip side, we feed chicken quite a bit and none of our 5 have ANY kind of smell to their breath (unless they JUST finished eating of course)


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## Celt (Dec 27, 2010)

Well, went and had a look see, but I didn't see anything, except that Blaise's teeth are grody looking, and Scotty's has a goock line across the top of his back teeth. <sigh> I guess, chicken necks, pork spareribs and various "chewies' just isn't enough. Oh well, I was brushing any ways. 
They don't get much chicken. Mostly chicken necks with occassional frozen, chopped boneless thighs. I'm not up to playing "fling the chicken pieces" most days.


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## jdatwood (Apr 13, 2009)

How long have you been feeding raw?


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## Celt (Dec 27, 2010)

Since about April for full on raw, baystepped in starting around February.


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## whiteleo (Sep 7, 2008)

Celt said:


> Well, went and had a look see, but I didn't see anything, except that Blaise's teeth are grody looking, and Scotty's has a goock line across the top of his back teeth. <sigh> I guess, chicken necks, pork spareribs and various "chewies' just isn't enough. Oh well, I was brushing any ways.
> They don't get much chicken. Mostly chicken necks with occassional frozen, chopped boneless thighs. I'm not up to playing "fling the chicken pieces" most days.


Turkey necks are a good chew for dental cleaning! Give it time, the teeth will come clean, just you wait and see!


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

whiteleo said:


> I know that when my dogs ate chicken all the time they had awful breath, once they got past the chicken stage and onto other proteins the smell subsided. I very rarely feed chicken so the smell hasn't come back, but that is just a thought!


i remember that, too...when we first started, the entire dog smelled like chicken....it was coming out of their pores.....

i don't feed chicken anymore at all....there are other bony things to feed them.....


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## Celt (Dec 27, 2010)

Turkey's hard to find at a "reasonable" price here. We found some ground turkey in the clearance bin, but they don't really like it. I have to mix it in with ground beef to get them to eat it. Poultry seems to be frowned upon by them. They prefer red meat.


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## malluver1005 (Nov 15, 2009)

whiteleo said:


> Turkey necks are a good chew for dental cleaning! Give it time, the teeth will come clean, just you wait and see!


hmmm...I have never given Aspen turkey necks. How big are they (I would say pretty big)? Is the hardness of bone just a little harder than the chicken?


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## whiteleo (Sep 7, 2008)

Celt said:


> Turkey's hard to find at a "reasonable" price here. We found some ground turkey in the clearance bin, but they don't really like it. I have to mix it in with ground beef to get them to eat it. Poultry seems to be frowned upon by them. They prefer red meat.


Ground turkey I have found a lot of times is mixed with an enhancement of some kind, the only ground I feed is tripe or bison. Hey, if they prefer red meat then they are "pretty smart dogs" Can you get beef ribs for just a rec chew? Other options are lamb ribs, goat ribs, calf necks and spines.


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

Celt said:


> Turkey's hard to find at a "reasonable" price here. We found some ground turkey in the clearance bin, but they don't really like it. I have to mix it in with ground beef to get them to eat it. Poultry seems to be frowned upon by them. They prefer red meat.


try to stay away from the ground beef.....that's part of why you have this problem....

whilst i know they are the boss of all of us, we have to harden our hearts, so they eat what we can afford. they are like kids who say, but mom, can't you just write a check or use your card?

so tough love might be in order.....

beef bbq ribs are usually not too expensive and give a great dental work out.


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## whiteleo (Sep 7, 2008)

malluver1005 said:


> hmmm...I have never given Aspen turkey necks. How big are they (I would say pretty big)? Is the hardness of bone just a little harder than the chicken?


Very different consistency, very bony, like cartilidge almost. They can get pretty big, depending on what kind of turkey you get them from, a young tom or older tom. About 2ft long, anywhere from 8-10" around to bigger.


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## Celt (Dec 27, 2010)

The ground beef is one of my "staples" as it's pretty much the cheapest beef I can find. Just like their pork is generally the spareribs. Most of my meat comes from the clearance section. I haven't found any goat yet, lamb is out of financial reach and the only neck bones I can find are already cut up. Do you think they'd be able to do pigs feet that have been cut in half?


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## Ania's Mommy (Feb 8, 2009)

malluver1005 said:


> hmmm...I have never given Aspen turkey necks. How big are they (I would say pretty big)? Is the hardness of bone just a little harder than the chicken?


We loooove turkey necks. They're awesome for teeth cleaning. They're like biting into a meaty toothbrush. Lol! You just have to make sure you get whole ones for Aspen. I haven't seen those in the regular grocery store; only cut ones that Aspen could try to gulp whole. Like Whiteleo said, they're like foot or two long when whole.

Celt - You might be fine with the cut turkey necks since you have small dogs. I'd give them a try. You might have luck finding them in the store as the holidays get closer. Just beware of ones that are smoked or or pre-seasoned.


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## Caty M (Aug 13, 2010)

Iggys are known for having terrible teeth.. big teeth for their tiny jaws. So it just may take longer to get them fully clean on raw. I'd think that antlers also would be a good teeth cleaner, correct me if I'm wrong...

Tessie is just growing in her adult teeth now- I'll for sure keep an eye out for plaque on hers.


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## Celt (Dec 27, 2010)

I plan on looking for turkey necks around the holidays, if nothing else they'll get the one from our turkey.
Iggies, like most toy breeds, are known for horrible teeth which is why I've been "working" on keeping them clean. I seem to be failing though 
 They definitely have big teeth, and they sort of look like crocodiles when they yawn, the teeth just seem to go on forever.


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## RawFedDogs (Jun 16, 2008)

I think ground meats of all kinds are your problem. Try to cut out ground stuff for a few weeks and see if there is any improvement. I wouldn't feed a ground meal more than once or twice a week. Ground meats tend to leave reminants between teeth, between teeth and gums, and between gums and cheeks. This stuff then rots and smells terrible giving terrible breath. Remember bad breath is nothing more than bacteria in the mouth. Whole meats tend to not leave reminants. What little is left is taken care of by bones.


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## Celt (Dec 27, 2010)

RawFedDogs--They don't usually get ground more than twice a week, most time they get bone in meals, but I'll give it a try.


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## DoglovingSenior (Jun 26, 2011)

The butchers at the grocery stores know me. Before I began using my "butcher", I would knock on their little windows or ring the little bells and ask them would they cut me some beef neckbones about "this" wide. They were quite obliging.


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## Porphyria (Jul 13, 2011)

Caty M said:


> Iggys are known for having terrible teeth.. big teeth for their tiny jaws. So it just may take longer to get them fully clean on raw. I'd think that antlers also would be a good teeth cleaner, correct me if I'm wrong...
> 
> Tessie is just growing in her adult teeth now- I'll for sure keep an eye out for plaque on hers.


Yeah, some breeds are just predisposed to dental issues. I've found that antlers have helped quite a bit. Zephyr's antler went missing for about a week and in that short amount of time I noticed buildup. I found the antler and after only a few days, his teeth are clean again. I don't know that every dog will have such good results from antlers, but it's worth looking into.


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## naturalfeddogs (Jan 6, 2011)

Because of money reasons we are feeding all chicken and beef/calf liver right now, and have no bad breath smell at all. I would think there has to something stuck between teeth somewhere.


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## Nootherids (Sep 22, 2011)

OP...I read in your posts a lot of "boneless" and "ground". You also mentioned chew bones. If your dog is on Raw and the teeth are still that dirty and smelly then they are not crunching through the bones enough. Scraping the sides of the bones and gnawing on them is all good, but you need to let the bones act as a very hard toothbrush to scrape all that plaque off the teeth. My dog on kibble or processed food is guaranteed to brown teeth and the smell of "carion" coming out every breath she takes. Once I got her back on raw her teeth very quickly started sparkling white and the stench issue was gone. 

That's the beauty of turkey necks. The bones are a perfect toughness that they can actually chew through with just the right amount of effort for a medium sized dog, and the bone is also very porous so when she bites through it easily "wraps" around the tooth and scrapes off the stone hard plaque. Chicken necks are good but their bones are very small and more like cartilage so they're not the best at cleaning, they may also be chugging the entire neck without barely chewing on it. Chicken backs and breast bones are also awesome but my butcher doesn't have any in stock until winter.

P.S. I can only reference to poultry cause my Beagle did not do too well with meat. Tried beef and pork and she just couldn't bite through the bones. Got all the meat off of them, but couldn't actually crunch through the bone itself. So it didn't clean her teeth and her breath got smelly again. Plus her digestive system didn't handle meat very well at all.


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## Scarlett_O' (May 19, 2011)

I just thought something.........are we sure they arent eating anything "extracurricular"?? My Mr. Rhettyamacallit likes to rush out before we have time to clean up and graze in the "doggie area"!!:wink: If I didnt know better I would think it was his food.....but it isnt...its what he is eating BESIDE food!!:wink: uke:


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## Celt (Dec 27, 2010)

DoglovingSenior--Most of the places, I've asked don't even have neck bones and the ones that do only sell them precut. 

Porphyria--I'll have to see if I can find some around here. Do they have a strong smell or "greasy" texture?

Nootherids--My 2 actually didn't get many boneless meals until recently. Maybe 3 days out of the week, most of the times they get chicken necks or pork spareribs. The boys have only once not chewed their boney pieces. They were not happy with the results (and I was terrified). It was terrifying watching my dog gagging and choking with this horribly "distended" throat. I could see the chunk as he tried to bring it the rest of the way out. The other one just upchucked a slimy, mooshy "intact" neck (thank God). Neither one would touch it afterwards. But before and since this incident, they've always chewed their food well. They adore chewing on things, which is why we have lots of "chewies" from pizzles to "fuzzies" (that they defuzz, talk about using their front teeth). 

Scarlett O'--I'm pretty certain that Blaise is not eating any, aaahh, aromatic items. And the smell, is that of rotting meat, not just stinkiness.


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## Scarlett_O' (May 19, 2011)

Celt said:


> Scarlett O'--I'm pretty certain that Blaise is not eating any, aaahh, aromatic items. And the smell, is that of rotting meat, not just stinkiness.


HAHA, ok....just figured I would throw it out there....its not really something that most people even think about....ya know, since WE wouldnt think about it!!HAHAHAHA


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## Celt (Dec 27, 2010)

Understand what you mean, I broke Scotty of that nasty habit when he was a puppy. But there's a different stench to poopy breath than this rotting meat smell.


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## Scarlett_O' (May 19, 2011)

Celt said:


> Understand what you mean, I broke Scotty of that nasty habit when he was a puppy. *But there's a different stench to poopy breath than this rotting meat smell.*


SOO true!!!


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## Nootherids (Sep 22, 2011)

Scarlett_O' said:


> HAHA, ok....just figured I would throw it out there....its not really something that most people even think about....ya know, since WE wouldnt think about it!!HAHAHAHA


I remember when my dog was a puppy with that lovely puppy breath and they always want to lick your face. Then you pick up your puppy one day and let him give you all this loving when ... "WOAH, WOAH! What's the stench?! OMG! She ate poop and was kissing me on the mouth! OH LORD!"

That puppy breath wasn't exactly so lovely anymore. LOL

@Celt...I really don't know what to tell you. My dog had that absolutely horrendous breath too. It was so bad that even the breath coming out of her nose with her mouth closed was horrible. Getting her off of kibble and onto bones was the answer for me. But you know something else I just thought about...there was one other time I remember her breath smelling like that. When she was shedding her teeth as a puppy one stayed in too long and was "rotting" in its socket. It got better once it finally came out. So my suggestion is that you take them puppies to the vet as a final measure and get them both a dental cleansing. Quite expensive at $200 a pop ($300 where I'm located), but it'll scrape off any stuck on plaque, check for any rotting teeth, and check for any periodontal disease. Some dogs are naturally more prone to mouth disease than others. I'm not familiar with your breed.

Or take one of them for the procedure, see how that helps and then take the other one if the money was worth it.


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## Porphyria (Jul 13, 2011)

Celt said:


> Porphyria--I'll have to see if I can find some around here. Do they have a strong smell or "greasy" texture?


Nope, antlers should be smooth and dry. I haven't noticed any odor whatsoever. I've found bully sticks and Himalayan chews to be quite smelly; spiral beef tendons are less so, but they've still got an odor. Antlers are definitely my favorite chew to have around the house because they don't leave any residue and they don't smell. My dog treats them more like chew toys than edible chews--he'll chew on it for a while, then leave, then come back to it later; whereas edible chews are scarfed in a matter of minutes. So these last much longer than other chews I've tried. I've gotten them at Pet Supplies Plus and bestbullysticks.com.


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## Celt (Dec 27, 2010)

I'll definitely lok into getting one. My two don't like greasy or really smelly stuff. They do like the spiral chews and "dry roasted" pig ears. They're not real heavy chewers, even the spirals and ears will last a few days.


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## DaneMama (Jun 27, 2008)

There might be an issue with their teeth that keeps them from chewing to their full potential. If there are infected roots, feeding raw wont help that. Its the same thing when people get an infection in our roots, we need a root canal to fix it. I would suggest getting them into a vet to check the teeth out, and possibly do a dental. Get their teeth cleaned up and free of any potential infection. That way from here on out they can chew comfortably and keep their teeth clean for the future. 

Is there anyway for you to take clear pictures of their teeth to post here? I do dentals on dogs nearly everyday at work so I know the insides of a dog's mouth like the back of my hand, I'm usually pretty good at seeing any problem spots. Just a thought.


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## Celt (Dec 27, 2010)

I'll try and get some pictures. But Scotty ended up getting a dental done when he had his leg fixed and hasn't been the same since. He use to be my "heavy" chewer but since then he doesn't like to chew as much.


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## DaneMama (Jun 27, 2008)

When was the dental? And do you know what they did?


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## Celt (Dec 27, 2010)

He had surgery in January of this year. I'm not sure what all was done as I was called and asked by the vet tech if I wanted a dental done after his surgery. I told her no because I didn't want him under any longer than necessary. Then a little while later, the vet called and said that Scotty hada infection in one of his back molars and did I want him to handle it now as it could be dealt with while Scotty was recovering. Of course, I said yes, I mean an infection needs to be treated, ya know. But when I went to pick Scotty up, I found out it was supposedly gingivitis not an infection. I'll try getting the pictures up sometime tomorrow, dogs "willing" .
Umm, completely off topic, but would you know how long recovery after an ortho surgery is?


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## DaneMama (Jun 27, 2008)

Orthopedic surgery? Depends on a lot. The dog, the surgical procedure, the injury, the recovery period. 

What was the injury and how old was it when he went in for surgery? 

What surgery did they do? 

What recovery program did they give you?


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

my question would be...how did they treat the gingivitis?

and is it possible your dog doesn't get any action in his back teeth?


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## Celt (Dec 27, 2010)

What was the injury and how old was it when he went in for surgery? 
He broke his right foreleg, both bones just above the "wrist" area ( I know that's not the right term, but can't think of the right one)

What surgery did they do?
They put a plate and screws in to support the break. 

What recovery program did they give you?
Recovery program? 
Would that be the keep him confined, only leashed potty breaks for 12 weeks instructions?

how did they treat the gingivitis?
The vet said he cleaned up his teeth and gave him antibiotics.

Is it possible your dog doesn't get any action in his back teeth?
He still chews on his chewies and rmb (just not as much or has "hard") and he uses his back teeth (both sides) when he chews.

I haven't had a chance to take the pics yet.


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## DaneMama (Jun 27, 2008)

Ah I see. Well, since it was a random accident/surgery then its really hard to tell you how fast dogs should recover. There are cases where they don't ever get back to normal or even semi normal activity. 

Do you know if they did a full scale and polish to every tooth?


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## Celt (Dec 27, 2010)

Oops, I didn't mean recovery from the injury. He's mostly back to normal, although I've "heard" from others that their vet had them do physical therapy (?). I was trying to find out it takes to recover from the anethesia. It just seemed to take a awful long time before I could pick him up afterwards.
Well, here are the pics. They're the best I could take right now.


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## Celt (Dec 27, 2010)

Scotty's




















I was only told that he cleaned the teeth and to make sure to give him the antibiotics. The vet's attitude is the reason, we're looking for a new vet, even though we liked some of the others in the practice. <sigh>


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## DaneMama (Jun 27, 2008)

Honestly the teeth don't look bad to me. Not much tartar on there at all. 

It takes some dogs a long time to come out of it, especially sight hounds. They tend to be "weird" under anesthesia. Some dogs are awake and standing within a half hour of extubation, albeit still wobbly. Others will barely be able to stand even hours afterwards. Not to mention if there will be complications from anesthesia it occurs after they're turned off of the gas. So its a huge precaution we have to take by keeping animals for observation at least 4-6 hours post op.


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## Celt (Dec 27, 2010)

I'm glad to hear that you don't think their teeth are bad. There are times, with Blaise, that I'm not sure with the "staining" his teeth have. Well, I have to take them in for heartworm meds and physical, maybe a reason will be found for the "death" breath.

On the surgery thing, I guess I just feel like something didn't go "right" from the way the vet acted afterwards, especially when my husband talked to him. He hadn't worked on sighthounds, and I tried to explain to him that they were weird, he was a tad condenscending. Scotty's surgery ended at 10 and I finally insisted on picking him up at 8 (they close at 8:30). He was a little groggy, shaking, and cold.Ah well, it's in the past now.


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## Nootherids (Sep 22, 2011)

Oh, I just remembered, another thing the vet had mentioned to me that could be causing my dog's horrible breath was that she might have Acid Reflux or some level of mild internal regurgitation. However it seems that my solution was changing her over to raw from kibble because 2 weeks after the switch the breath goes away completely. At first it smelled like rotting meat for a couple of days and then it slowly started going away and now it just smells like regular dog saliva. No more stench. But since you are already on raw I have zero ideas on suggestions, but you might want to discuss with the vet and/or research about potential regurgitation issues with your breed.

BTW...try to get a vet that is familiar with your dog breed. From the little I've read they are pretty unique. Maybe contact your local greyhound rescue group and ask them what vets they work with regularly.


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## JoeynZoey (Apr 25, 2011)

I am also starting to wonder about zoey's horrible breath lately, I read most of the replies here and I do feed mostly chicken so maybe that could be one reason? she does not have tarter and her gums look healthy so I am not sure what could be causing such horrible breath even though her raw diet, which she has been on for a couple of years now.


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## RawFedDogs (Jun 16, 2008)

JoeynZoey said:


> I am also starting to wonder about zoey's horrible breath lately, I read most of the replies here and I do feed mostly chicken so maybe that could be one reason? she does not have tarter and her gums look healthy so I am not sure what could be causing such horrible breath even though her raw diet, which she has been on for a couple of years now.


Exactly what are you feeding and how?


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## Caty M (Aug 13, 2010)

It's tough to find a vet that knows about the special needs of specific breeds. The last vet I talked to about spaying just said all dogs are the same, they just go off body weight. Uh, NO! That sucks that Scotty didn't have a good experience.


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## JoeynZoey (Apr 25, 2011)

RawFedDogs said:


> Exactly what are you feeding and how?


All chicken parts usually as my base, from thighs, necks, backs, legs, wings etc. Usually other than chicken, I will give beef cuts, lamb, or turkey. Chicken gizzards are given about twice a week, along with chicken livers once a week. I also give an egg daily usually, AVC, plain yogurt, flax seed oil, and depending on the veggies I have I will add some of those maybe twice a week. Mostly just carrots or broccoli. 

I don't notice anything wrong even in her poos, other than some underlying cause for her bad breath. 

An example of one day's meal 

1 Chicken back frame 
1 chicken thigh 
1 lamb shoulder blade 
1 egg with shell
tablespoon of plain yogurt 
tablespoon of AVC 
tablespoon of flax seed oil
chicken gizzards or liver


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## RawFedDogs (Jun 16, 2008)

Cut out the veggies, AVC, yogurt, and flax seed oil. The breath should clear up in a few weeks at most. After the breath clears up you can again try AVC. If you feel you still need flax seed oil, substitute salmon oil or fish body oil in its place. But until the breath clears up, nothing but meat, bones, and organs, period. If you feel you must add some of the others back do so only one every few weeks so you will be able to determine which may be causing bad breath. If I were you, I'd never add veggies back to the diet. They are so unnecessary. Actually the others are unnecessary also but I think the veggies are the more likely cause of the bad breath.


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## JoeynZoey (Apr 25, 2011)

Sounds like a good way to determine things to me, thanks rawfedDogs. Yeah the veggies or flax seed oil more than likely are the cause so we'll see.


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