# Bad doggie teeth...how to get them to sparkle!!



## VizslaMama (Feb 15, 2012)

About 6 months ago I convinced my parents to switch their 7yr old mini schnauzer from kibble to raw. Unfortunately, my mom did not want to feed her RMBs. She was and still is afraid she will break teeth, choke, or they will get stuck in the intestines. I should note, their dog is missing her top front 4 teeth due to decay. Their vet had her on a dental kibble that clearly did nothing for her teeth. PS. there vet is 100% against raw, so my mom has been brainwashed. Currently, they feed ground raw meals that have bone in them, has organs, tripe etc. It is a start at least, so I can't complain/ Since the switch she looks and acts years younger. The vet had her on meds for stiffness, now since being switched she bounces around really well and goes up and down stairs, her coat is healthy and is finally at her optimal weight. The problem, her teeth are still bad. Awful breath, which is i assume due to tartar and plaque still.

I guess my question to anyone with suggestions - other than RMBs what can I HOPE to convince them to feed her? Chicken feet, knee caps, ears, pig snout, tendons...? I have read that fresh green tripe is also a good teeth cleaner?

She is a small dog and only get 3-4oz of food daily so my mom would want something that wouldn't take too much away from her daily rations, unless she can handle tripe then I guess that would replace a meal.


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

i suppose she can brush her teeth. maybe kat will come in here to suggest what she uses on her dog.

other than that.....the only thing i can recommend are beef ribs, which many small dogs can't eat the bone, but they get quite the workout...


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## twoisplenty (Nov 12, 2008)

RMB's is really the only thing you can feed to help clean teeth. Beef ribs, pork ribs, chicken/turkey necks are great too.


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## tem_sat (Jun 20, 2010)

Turkey necks did it for my Doxie, who is about the same size as your parent's dog.

If it helps, you may explain that turkey neck bones are not the same as a chicken bone, for example. The bone is not dense, but is somewhat cartilaginous. There is nothing "sharp" about a turkey neck. At 3 turkey neck feedings per week, the results will speak for themselves.


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## Kat (Jul 12, 2011)

Lol Magicre, yes I will  

I feed Ruby RMB's 4 times a week, and her teeth are all sparkly white, except for one molar on both sides of the bottom jaw. So for that I literally have an arsenal of toothbrushes (some pet ones, and I also went to Babies R Us and bought a few tiny ones there too), and 3 types of tooth cleaners. Tropiclean has a clean teeth gel, which you are supposed to apply in the evening and it softens plaque and tartar making it easier to remove, and they just came out with a gel "toothpaste" that you use with their three sided brush. The mint in the gel is fairly strong, but Ruby doesnt fight me on it. I also have a natural enzyme toothpaste, I think its from petrodex or something like that, its peanut flavoured. I only brush Rubys teeth a few times a week, even though I should do it everyday but I forget sometimes. Especially after she eats canned fish, I always brush her teeth then, because a film does develop over the teeth.


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## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

I second the rib bone thing - she can't eat the bone. But she can use the meat to clean her teeth, even with some missing. Rib bones and turkey necks are pretty much Snorkels' staple.

Has she had a dental cleaning? The smell is very often a sign of tooth and gum decay, and a heavy load of bacteria in the mouth. Which in turn can lead to organ damage, like Snorkels' heart. 

Not to mention pain, which dogs do their best not to show.


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## chewice (Jan 1, 2012)

Not to thread steal - but my co-workers has a cat and they want to pull out all his molars and he is only 7 yrs old. Are the above suggestions the same for his little mouth? I gave her some duck feet for him to gnaw on...follow what you're recommending?


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## Unosmom (May 3, 2009)

I'd try chicken or turkey necks since they dont look like a traditional bones and can be a meal.


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## VizslaMama (Feb 15, 2012)

Thanks everyone....she still won't do the turkey necks or chicken necks.... I keep trying to convince her that she will be OK.


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## Mondo (Dec 20, 2011)

I would say yes to chicken feet. Tuffy gets a good workout with them, Toby less so but they are pretty chewy and they have glucosamine too. Chicken necks, turkey necks, duck necks. Tuffy can be picky so occasioally I have to cut the necks up into chunks for him. He still gets a good crunch out of them. 

My boys are 12 and 11 and have just recently started on raw. It's never too late. Tuffy is missing about 7 teeth.


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## DaneMama (Jun 27, 2008)

If the dog's teeth are already covered with tartar....RMBs or doing a dental scale and polish is really the only two ways to get them sparkly clean. Brushing teeth that are caked with tartar doesn't do a damn thing unfortunately. Once the tartar is physically removed either from a scaling process by a machine OR by RMBs....then she could religiously brush teeth everyday to keep them that way with no guarantee they would actually stay tartar free. 

RMBs are a LOT cheaper and a LOT safer and a LOT more appropriate than putting a dog under anesthesia for a dental scale and polish procedure.


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## Dude and Bucks Mamma (May 14, 2011)

http://dogfoodchat.com/forum/raw-feeding/10614-dudes-teeth.html

You could try showing her this thread. Dude is my 8 year old smooth collie who was started on PMR last June. By the time I started this thread he had the cleanest 8 year old dog teeth I have ever seen. I show people his teeth all the time. His gums were swollen and his teeth were caked with plaque but no longer! Hahaha. Dude's teeth would not look this way now if it weren't for RMBs.

Honestly, she needs to get over this fear of RMBs if she wants her dog to be able to have a healthy mouth. RMBs aren't just for big dogs. Little dogs are notorious for bad teeth and many members here have little dogs with sparkly whites and don't need to get dentals or brush their dogs' teeth. 

Chicken backs and quarters got Dude's teeth to a certain point but the calf legs, hoof and all got them to where they are now. Necks are excellent for teeth cleaning as well.


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## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

Dude and Bucks Mamma said:


> http://dogfoodchat.com/forum/raw-feeding/10614-dudes-teeth.html
> 
> You could try showing her this thread. Dude is my 8 year old smooth collie who was started on PMR last June. By the time I started this thread he had the cleanest 8 year old dog teeth I have ever seen. I show people his teeth all the time. His gums were swollen and his teeth were caked with plaque but no longer! Hahaha. Dude's teeth would not look this way now if it weren't for RMBs.
> 
> ...


I think alot of these small dogs are expected to get heart problems when in reality it's because their teeth are bad. 

The vet said to me the other day that most small dogs have heart problems by Snorkels' age. I don't think that's genetic - I think most of that could be avoided if their teeth didn't rot out of their heads.


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## VizslaMama (Feb 15, 2012)

tem_sat said:


> Turkey necks did it for my Doxie, who is about the same size as your parent's dog.
> 
> If it helps, you may explain that turkey neck bones are not the same as a chicken bone, for example. The bone is not dense, but is somewhat cartilaginous. There is nothing "sharp" about a turkey neck. At 3 turkey neck feedings per week, the results will speak for themselves.


tem sat - how do you feed the turkey necks to your doxie? Cut up, horizontal/vertical? The ones I can get for them are whole necks, weighing quite a bit. Not 100% sure how much, I'd have to check the next time Copper gets one. Their Schnauzer only gets 1.5-2oz at dinner time.


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## VizslaMama (Feb 15, 2012)

xellil said:


> I second the rib bone thing - she can't eat the bone. But she can use the meat to clean her teeth, even with some missing. Rib bones and turkey necks are pretty much Snorkels' staple.
> 
> Has she had a dental cleaning? The smell is very often a sign of tooth and gum decay, and a heavy load of bacteria in the mouth. Which in turn can lead to organ damage, like Snorkels' heart.
> 
> Not to mention pain, which dogs do their best not to show.


I am not sure if she has had a recent dental cleaning, but she just had her annual vet visit, so I will ask if the vet mentioned anything about her teeth while they were there. My Dad took her, and he doesn't always remember to ask questions. Vets always advocate nyla bones chews, dental treats, teeth brushing, but if these products worked should be see improvement? Our pup is almost a year old and his teeth are so white it amazing, so I feel like I need to open their eyes to help Tanzy out before she looses more teeth or gets health issue from bad teeth. 

Questions - When they get a dental cleaning, does this clean their teeth fully or is it in steps over a few appointments? It is quite expensive, and they put the dogs under. Correct?


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## VizslaMama (Feb 15, 2012)

Mondo said:


> I would say yes to chicken feet. Tuffy gets a good workout with them, Toby less so but they are pretty chewy and they have glucosamine too. Chicken necks, turkey necks, duck necks. Tuffy can be picky so occasioally I have to cut the necks up into chunks for him. He still gets a good crunch out of them.
> 
> My boys are 12 and 11 and have just recently started on raw. It's never too late. Tuffy is missing about 7 teeth.


I was definetly leaning towards them feeding chicken feet as treats, since she is older I am sure she would benefit from the glucosamine, like you said, and does give her teeth something to scrap on. 

I already asked this question to someone else, but how small of chunks do you cut your chicken/turkey necks into for your dogs? They look to be of similar size to a mini schnauzer, maybe a little bigger. 

I am so used to feeding the whole thing, never had to cut up bones.


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## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

VizslaMama said:


> I was definetly leaning towards them feeding chicken feet as treats, since she is older I am sure she would benefit from the glucosamine, like you said, and does give her teeth something to scrap on.
> 
> I already asked this question to someone else, but how small of chunks do you cut your chicken/turkey necks into for your dogs? They look to be of similar size to a mini schnauzer, maybe a little bigger.
> 
> I am so used to feeding the whole thing, never had to cut up bones.


I feed whole turkey necks to my 10 pound dog. sometimes I cut it in half. My opinion is the bigger, the better. And often I feed them frozen solid for a better tooth and gum workout. I take it away from her after a certain period of time, freeze it, and give it to her again the next time.

I also give her a whole lambshead to gnaw on, and she shares a hogshead with my big dog. 

i do give her smaller bones - chicken heads for glucosamine, chicken necks when i don't have anything else. Anything is fair game with her, in my opinion.



The dental cleaning is a one time thing. And yes, they are under anesthesia. It's crazy to have to go through the same thing as a major operation to get a dog's teeth cleaned, but there ya go.


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## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

Oh, and those dental products don't work on teeth that are already bad.


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## VizslaMama (Feb 15, 2012)

Dude and Bucks Mamma said:


> http://dogfoodchat.com/forum/raw-feeding/10614-dudes-teeth.html
> 
> You could try showing her this thread. Dude is my 8 year old smooth collie who was started on PMR last June. By the time I started this thread he had the cleanest 8 year old dog teeth I have ever seen. I show people his teeth all the time. His gums were swollen and his teeth were caked with plaque but no longer! Hahaha. Dude's teeth would not look this way now if it weren't for RMBs.
> 
> ...


I think I will do just that! : ) I pretty much knew the answer before I started this thread, but with everyones responses, I hope to show what everyone has seen in the change from just adding RMBs a few times a week. 

The proof is in the evidence, and as I wrote earlier...my Copper has teeth that are white as white can be. I am not sure how quickly plaque and tartar build on dogs teeth, but after a year on kibble without the aid of RMBs I'd suspect his teeth wouldn't be so white. I owe his sparkly whites to the way I feed. 

I hope I can ease her mind about bones.....and everyones thoughts will help her at least try it. Fingers Crossed!


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## VizslaMama (Feb 15, 2012)

xellil said:


> I feed whole turkey necks to my 10 pound dog. sometimes I cut it in half. My opinion is the bigger, the better. And often I feed them frozen solid for a better tooth and gum workout. I take it away from her after a certain period of time, freeze it, and give it to her again the next time.
> 
> I also give her a whole lambshead to gnaw on, and she shares a hogshead with my big dog.
> 
> ...


I am certainly showing her your post!! Their dog is only a couple pounds bigger than yours, so maybe if she hears about you feeding your 10lb dog a turkey neck she may give it a shot. From frozen sounds like a good idea. I feed all RMBs from frozen to my guy, hes a gulper. Thawed RMBs just slip down the hatch in seconds.

Do you worry about how much meal your dog got out of it? I know this will be my moms first question. I guess she could weight it, then re-weight it after she has chewed on it for a bit, if she is that worried. I personally wouldn't worry, but I know my mom. : )


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## VizslaMama (Feb 15, 2012)

xellil said:


> Oh, and those dental products don't work on teeth that are already bad.


HA! - I 100% agree with this!!


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## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

ALot of times i weigh it, and then re-weigh it. But they expend alot of energy doing that, especially if they are frozen. Both mental and physical. After she eats a turkey neck, Snorkels often sleeps for hours. So i don't stress about it too much. 

That was a stopping point for me for awhile, also - she doesn't get alot of food a day and I was afraid she'd eat a pound of turkey neck. but it really turned out to be a non-issue. Once, I let her finish off a turkey neck that started out at 7 ounces. It took so much work she actually lost two ounces that day.

and don't forget rib bones - you can trim them down to a few oz and dogs will gnaw on them for a long time, but can't get into the bone. Your mom might actually be more comfortable with that at first - she can regulate the amount of food and not worry about bones going down the hatch.


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## Dude and Bucks Mamma (May 14, 2011)

VizslaMama said:


> I think I will do just that! : ) I pretty much knew the answer before I started this thread, but with everyones responses, I hope to show what everyone has seen in the change from just adding RMBs a few times a week.
> 
> The proof is in the evidence, and as I wrote earlier...my Copper has teeth that are white as white can be. I am not sure how quickly plaque and tartar build on dogs teeth, but after a year on kibble without the aid of RMBs I'd suspect his teeth wouldn't be so white. I owe his sparkly whites to the way I feed.
> 
> I hope I can ease her mind about bones.....and everyones thoughts will help her at least try it. Fingers Crossed!


My 11 month old coonhound pup went without major RMBs for a couple of months and he already had plaque starting to build up. It builds up fast. One RMB took care of it. It's definitely worth giving to them.


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## Imgliniel (Sep 1, 2011)

chewice said:


> Not to thread steal - but my co-workers has a cat and they want to pull out all his molars and he is only 7 yrs old. Are the above suggestions the same for his little mouth? I gave her some duck feet for him to gnaw on...follow what you're recommending?


I tried chicken feet with my two, and they are power chewer kitties who cat tackle small to medium hunks of turkey necks and chicken drumsticks, and they had no interest in them. I think there is not enough meat on them to make them worthwhile to a cat. Do her cats eat raw already? If not they are going to be hesitant to tackle bone in pieces, those are ussually the last thing most cats agree to when transitioning. But all that aside, yes, the siggestions are basically the same, chiken necks, small turkey necks, chicken wings, entire cornish hens are good for kitties, I have not tried ribs for them to strip because they are not cheap where I live.


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## tem_sat (Jun 20, 2010)

VizslaMama said:


> tem sat - how do you feed the turkey necks to your doxie? Cut up, horizontal/vertical? The ones I can get for them are whole necks, weighing quite a bit. Not 100% sure how much, I'd have to check the next time Copper gets one. Their Schnauzer only gets 1.5-2oz at dinner time.


Ok! How to feed a turkey neck to a 12lb Doxie based on feeding 4 ounces per day:

1. Weigh the whole turkey neck. Tip: A turkey neck normally has a thicker end and a thinner end. After weighing the neck, grab a heavy meat cleaver.

2. Assuming the total weight of the turkey neck is around 1/2 pound (your necks may vary), cut the neck in half allowing more length on the thinner end and less length on the thicker end. Do not try to slice the turkey neck in 1/2 lengthwise, as that defeats the purpose of allowing the dog to sink their teeth in to the bone and meat, thereby cleaning longer teeth such as canines. 

3. Turkey necks can be difficult to cut. I use a cutting board with a kitchen rag underneath to prevent slipping. I take my cleaver and slice into the neck as deeply as possible then lift the neck (and the cleaver) up and back down (with added force) on the cutting board. Keep doing that a few times until you are able to break the neck in 1/2 with your hands. I normally portion out a month's worth of turkey necks in Ziploc bags and have them ready in the freezer.

I would encourage your parents to make one change regarding feeding. Correct me if I am wrong but, is the Schnauzer being fed twice per day? If so, on "turkey neck days" I would only feed once per day. The reason for this is to allow for larger RMB's, such as the turkey necks, to be fed and chewed. You likely will see improved dental results by feeding larger single pieces.


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## Mondo (Dec 20, 2011)

tem_sat said:


> Turkey necks can be difficult to cut.



Poultry shears. They work way better than a cleaver. Love 'em.


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## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

Mondo said:


> Poultry shears. They work way better than a cleaver. Love 'em.


I use shears also. Mine are cheap, so I usually still have to break it with my hands even though I can cut through the meat. Which is why I normally take the lazy way out and don't cut it at all


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## Imgliniel (Sep 1, 2011)

haha, I just take a knife and put a slice in the meat between two vertabrea, and then break it with my hands and then grab the knife and slice through the last of the meat and stuff like the trachea, I can make a 1 lb turkey neck into three pieces in about 60 seconds, it really is not that bad once you get the hang of it.


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

Mondo said:


> Poultry shears. They work way better than a cleaver. Love 'em.


they may work better, but they have nothing on the anger management properties of a nice, solid whack with a cleaver and mallet LOL


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## tem_sat (Jun 20, 2010)

Imgliniel said:


> I can make a 1 lb turkey neck into three pieces in about 60 seconds...


Very impressive!


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

Imgliniel said:


> haha, I just take a knife and put a slice in the meat between two vertabrea, and then break it with my hands and then grab the knife and slice through the last of the meat and stuff like the trachea, I can make a 1 lb turkey neck into three pieces in about 60 seconds, it really is not that bad once you get the hang of it.


man, i never want to piss you off.


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## Mondo (Dec 20, 2011)

magicre said:


> they may work better, but they have nothing on the anger management properties of a nice, solid whack with a cleaver and mallet LOL


True, but the lack of meat splatter is sometimes a positive.

Tuffy and Toby beg to differ on that.


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

Mondo said:


> True, but the lack of meat splatter is sometimes a positive.
> 
> Tuffy and Toby beg to differ on that.


agreed on that one.

but i thought you realised that everything is for tuffy and toby. 

i just whacked a rabbit leg to not feed the exposed bone, and it flew....off the board and onto the floor in pieces, shattered. 

oops.


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## Imgliniel (Sep 1, 2011)

:heh:

The things raw feeders do huh? I got really good at Turkey necks because I give the small end to the cats and the big end to the dog and they are a staple here for bone in.

What you really don't want to do is piss my husband off! I showed him and he cut, boke, and instead of slicing the rest though he could just just pull it apart and ended up pulling what I can only guess was the trachea out of the wholw thing hanging off the piece he had cut. I asked him to please not do that next time haha.


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## Kat (Jul 12, 2011)

Does anyone know where I can buy a scaler to scale Ruby's teeth at home? Can it just be ordered online or something or would I have to go somewhere specific?


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## Amy18 (May 17, 2011)

Do you think a 5lb yorkie could manage a turkey neck?lol.. if not what animal necks could i feed to give her a good workout?


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## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

Amy18 said:


> Do you think a 5lb yorkie could manage a turkey neck?lol.. if not what animal necks could i feed to give her a good workout?



Sure - I'd give her the bony end and you'll have to take it away before she eats half a pound, but in my opinion the bigger the better, and you don't have to worry about her eating too fast.


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

Amy18 said:


> Do you think a 5lb yorkie could manage a turkey neck?lol.. if not what animal necks could i feed to give her a good workout?


yorkies are not the delicate princesses everyone thinks they are....they are fierce and they can take down a rat twice their size. 

a turkey neck should be child's play.....but, if not, chicken necks or duck necks would work...too.


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## VizslaMama (Feb 15, 2012)

I have passed this all to my mom. Shown her some very inspiring posts. She said she will think about it. Not sure if I should put a :smile: or a :frown: 

Bones just make her very very nervous. 

She will however, feed dehydrated oxtail, so at least she is concerned about her teeth, just can't seem to get her to go RAW bones. 

Oxtail comes in a 0.5lb vaccumed sealed bag for $11.25. I can only assume this is expensive, anyone else have thoughts on oxtail or chicken feet dehydrated? Same teeth cleaning effect? Better than nothing I suppose. They are a good chew for her. I think my mom leans towards dehydrated because they can toss it on the floor and not have to worry about a mess.


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