# BASIC Maintenance



## claybuster (Dec 18, 2008)

This Granular is not listed on the Abady Website. BASIC falls in between "classic" and "Formula for Maintenance and Stress", in the order of Granulars. This would be 3rd from the bottom of the list.

Note the kicker ingredient which takes it a notch up, Chicken Meal (#9).

(links removed)

This formula is actually cheaper in cost than the next one up (maintenance and stress), yet higher in cals. M&S is right around 800 I think, and this takes it up to around 875. M&S starts off with chicken meal, and gives you CBPM further down the line, opposite of BASIC. I think they just bump the Chicken Meal up to #1 at the next level strictly for marketing purposes.
This box of feed cost me $63.49 plus tax. Out the door for 67 and change.
It will last me every bit of 3 months, and despite being 5-lbs lighter than a box of "classic", it lasts the same amount of time because of the bump in strength. These also come in 48-lb boxes.


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## ChattyCathy (Nov 22, 2008)

Claybuster I'm a little confused.... According to how I understand your post, this is what you feed your dog who is a very active hunting dog?! Why would you want to feed your dog a kibble that starts w/a by product, white rice, another by product and then lard? Why wouldn't you want a product that starts out w/a protein such as, I don't know, turkey, beef, etc? These foods are about the same price and have more protein for your very active dog.


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## claybuster (Dec 18, 2008)

ChattyCathy said:


> These foods are about the same price and have more protein for your very active dog.


They do? I never knew that, thank you Cathy! What type of proteins are you talking about...animal source proteins? Are you referring to those foods with a ton of plant proteins, the ones that say they are 42% protein? With all that protein, are they getting anywhere close to 875 cals per cup?


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## claybuster (Dec 18, 2008)

ChattyCathy said:


> Why would you want to feed your dog a kibble that starts w/a by product...


Cathy, BASIC Maintenance *IS NOT *a kibble type food.


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## RawFedDogs (Jun 16, 2008)

claybuster said:


> Cathy, BASIC Maintenance *IS NOT *a kibble type food.


In so far as its a cooked mishmash of garbage from human food processing plants mixed with numerous chemicals, it pretty much is. :smile:


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## EnglishBullTerriers (Sep 10, 2008)

I like the part where they explain the ingredients that they put in their food. I was taught growing up that, 'if you have to expain yourself, then there is a good chance you are wrong!' 
RFD, This is NOT a kibble... This is a 'high quality feed for the natural canine in every dog!!'  Some don't appreciate it when their food is attacked and they feel like they are not feeding the best! 

Good post, I will refer to it when I want to know what else there is on the market besides raw meat! Thanks!!


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## PeanutsMommy (Dec 7, 2008)

RawFedDogs said:


> In so far as its a cooked mishmash of garbage from human food processing plants mixed with numerous chemicals, it pretty much is. :smile:


i agree it sounds very unhealthy


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## Doc (Jan 17, 2009)

"Read" into it whatever you want. Dogs eat it, dogs like it, dogs live a long time on it. No recalls on these products that I recall. Don't shoot me, heck, I have even fed Pedigree to a dog in the past! 

"Reading things through a filtered lens blocks all possibility of dialoge and perspective transformation" _doc_


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## PeanutsMommy (Dec 7, 2008)

some dogs like eating poo too.

to me reading what was on those pictures it doesnt sound very good. Thats my opinion and for me I would stay far away from it but hey I am not feeding your dogs so hey feed what you want I only worry about my own dog and his health and well being. I AM NOT SAYING YOUR DOGS ARE NOT HEALTHY AND HAPPY I AM SURE THEY ARE.


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## ChattyCathy (Nov 22, 2008)

claybuster said:


> They do? I never knew that, thank you Cathy! What type of proteins are you talking about...animal source proteins? Are you referring to those foods with a ton of plant proteins, the ones that say they are 42% protein? With all that protein, are they getting anywhere close to 875 cals per cup?


Claybuster I am *NOT *attacking your dog's food by any means as I'm still learning the differences between foods and what is good/bad for my animals. From reading many posts it is my understanding that people would want to feed their dog a high protein dog food and I guess 42% protein would be one of them. As far as the calories, I don't know how many calories there are but you can get calories from junk as well as from proteins. I'm just trying to get clarification for myself, not attacking your foods. I know how much you like Abady and after reading there isn't much protein in the first few ingredients, I was just wondering why it is so good. Like I said I only know from reading the posts here.

I'm not trying to be condescending or sarcastic towards you or attacking what you feed your dog by any means.... If you got the wrong impression, I'm sorry... I'm just curious that's all. I'm just trying to learn the differences among all the options and Abady is one I'm trying to understand. 

And, if it's not a kibble-type food what category is it???? What's the difference between feed and kibble?

I'm just asking for some clarification so I can understand why it's so good. 

I'm sure there are those who would attack my dog's food as I've had to change to a less quality brand than I was using before as the protein content was too high for my dogs as they are basically "couch potatoes."


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## rannmiller (Jun 27, 2008)

It's a granular kibble, it looks like a powder almost and you can mix it with water to make it more... mushy? I guess.

As far as the ingredients go, your first thought as far as what you've learned and been told is that they are very strange and unique to this brand alone (I've never seen another brand with ingredients like this). 

But think about this: the by-products are an animal-based protein source, and it is argued that it is just as nutrient-rich as and "meal" form of food, but less pricey. 

Next you have white rice. It's a grain, it sucks, but as we've all learned, carbs are necessary to hold kibble together. But it's supposedly less allergenic and doesn't expand as much in the colon, so that's good. 

Next Manhadden fish meal, that's a good animal-based protein source, it's also a good source of DHA (brain food).

Then you have Lard, pretend it says "chicken fat" and what's the difference between this type of animal-based fat and that one that is in most dog foods? 

Then you have sunflower oil, which can be good for the skin and coat if you aren't feeding a raw diet you need things like this to keep it healthy. 

Beef fat, again an animal-based fat, great for hunting dogs to get energy from. 

Beef and bone meal, which I believe is a good source of calcium and animal-based protein.

Beef liver, great animal based protein source. 

Whole eggs, great animal based protein source. 

Flaxseed oil, beef fat, manhadden fish fat, then vitamins and minerals. 

Now that it's been explained, does it still sound so bad?


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## ChattyCathy (Nov 22, 2008)

rannmiller said:


> It's a granular kibble, it looks like a powder almost and you can mix it with water to make it more... mushy? I guess.
> 
> As far as the ingredients go, your first thought as far as what you've learned and been told is that they are very strange and unique to this brand alone (I've never seen another brand with ingredients like this).
> 
> ...


NO. Thank you for the explanation... so why are so many against it?! (Looks like I still have a lot to learn.:redface


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## rannmiller (Jun 27, 2008)

Well IMO it's still better for dogs to get muscle meat as the bulk of their diet, but as far as diet goes, it seems to have the same nutritional benefits as far as the guaranteed analysis is concerned (Claybuster if you'd like to give us that link again, I think it'd be helpful). 

I think by-products get a bad rap because of magazines like WDJ, they just don't get a chance. I think more unbiased research and articles need to be done on it, personally, as is often the case :smile:


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## claybuster (Dec 18, 2008)

Does this look like a kibble?












RFD for his is own reasons (probably aesthetic appeal clouding good rational thinking), would like you to believe it is nothing more than cancerous slop scraped off the floor after chicken segregation takes place on the conveyor belt. Good chickens to the right, bad chickens to the left and all that stuff. I’m telling you don’t fall for you are being steered in the wrong direction. For the person that doesn’t feed raw, your only other choices are commercial omnivore nutrition. There is no other company out there avoiding certain ingredients for good reason (allergies). When I say avoiding ingredients, don’t be fooled with grain-free. Look at the ingredients. Grain fiber and protein is replaced with plant fiber and protein, you’ve made no progress. What do you see when you look further down the line at those Abady ingredients? Miss Miller showing some class and intelligence, pointed out what you see very effectively down the line. Ingredients like eggs, liver (with the fat left on), fish fat, meat and bone meals, etc. This is how this product delivers the animal source proteins in abundance along with those starters up front (CBPM, fish meal, beef fat).


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## rannmiller (Jun 27, 2008)

Yeah, I think the ingredients just look so different at first it freaks people out (I know it freaked me out a bit at first, now I'm always looking for "by-products" to incorporate into my dog's diet and realized I already do include several items that would count as such). Their immediate reaction is to think it's bad because WDJ says so, as do many of the other dog foods like Wellness, Blue Buffalo, Nutro (but no one cares what they say), Orijen, etc. 

You have to admit, it takes a bit of digging (or reading the thread on it on this forum) to find anything positive or less biased about by products. 

So changing the subject a bit, what is the point of the granular form? Is it supposed to be easier on the teeth or easier to digest or what? Just curious as to what the benefits of granular are as opposed to kibble.


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## ChattyCathy (Nov 22, 2008)

claybuster said:


> Does this look like a kibble?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I stand corrected! :redface: I just thought some fats and by-products as the first ingredient or so was a no, no.

Thanks for the picture. And, no... it doesn't look like kibble at all.


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## claybuster (Dec 18, 2008)

rannmiller said:


> So changing the subject a bit, what is the point of the granular form? Is it supposed to be easier on the teeth or easier to digest or what? Just curious as to what the benefits of granular are as opposed to kibble.


Good question, so I dug up some Abady quotes to help explain this:





> Another shortcoming of the kibbling process – plaque formation
> 
> Plaque is a big issue in dogs; it causes gum disease and tooth loss. The chewing of hard kibble is touted as being both the prevention and cure. Doctoral theses have been written on the benefits of kibble in the cleaning of teeth in support of industry propaganda. The facts, however, indicate that the opposite is true, that chewing kibble is the cause of plaque in dogs. Chewing kibble causes particles of food to accumulate in the crevices around the teeth. Although some companies take the approach that rough fibrous food can help clean teeth, it is absolute nonsense. Fibrous food is not appropriate to the feeding of carnivores, it is for herbivores (ruminants). Additionally, there is no way to clean teeth with food. In Nature, the texture of the food (internal organs, meat, fat, etc...) is slippery and does not leave residue. It is ripped into pieces, pulled apart and swallowed, not chewed. Prevention is the only way of keeping teeth clean.





> Kibble on the other hand is high in carbohydrates, the foundation of plaque formation. Clearly chewing kibble is the primary cause of plaque accumulation. Only the Abady Company has successfully addressed these two critically important issues by creating a special process that does not penalize nutrition while improving energy production.





> In addition this special food has a granular texture that does not require it be chewed. This prevents plaque from forming, just as in Nature, thereby maintaining cleaner teeth. If one wishes the dog to exercise its jaws, a marrow bone or pull toy should fit the bill, not the food.


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## EnglishBullTerriers (Sep 10, 2008)

Doc said:


> "Read" into it whatever you want. Dogs eat it, dogs like it, dogs live a long time on it. No recalls on these products that I recall. Don't shoot me, heck, I have even fed Pedigree to a dog in the past!
> 
> "Reading things through a filtered lens blocks all possibility of dialoge and perspective transformation" _doc_


FYI, Dogs eat their own poo also. See 'training' setion!


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## RawFedDogs (Jun 16, 2008)

claybuster said:


> RFD for his is own reasons (probably aesthetic appeal clouding good rational thinking), would like you to believe it is nothing more than cancerous slop scraped off the floor after chicken segregation takes place on the conveyor belt.


Aesthetic appeal has nothing to do with feeding dogs. I have no problem with feeding them any part of an animal. BUT ... Yes, those cancerous chickens and chickens that have fallen on the floor and any other chickens that have lost their "human grade" status are contained in chicken meal and chicken by-product meal. There is no chicken that is in too gross a condition to be put in these meals. Yes, there are chicken parts that came from healthy chickens in the meals and probably most of the volume of the chicken meal comes from healthy chickens but the other stuff is in there also.



> Good chickens to the right, bad chickens to the left and all that stuff. I’m telling you don’t fall for you are being steered in the wrong direction.


Like it or not, thats exactly how it's done. Stuff going to the left goes in dogfood. Stuff going to the right goes to grocery stores.



> For the person that doesn’t feed raw, your only other choices are commercial omnivore nutrition. There is no other company out there avoiding certain ingredients for good reason (allergies). When I say avoiding ingredients, don’t be fooled with grain-free. Look at the ingredients. Grain fiber and protein is replaced with plant fiber and protein, you’ve made no progress.


You also make no progress when rice is included in the formula. That alone makes it an omnivore food.



> What do you see when you look further down the line at those Abady ingredients? Miss Miller showing some class and intelligence, pointed out what you see very effectively down the line. Ingredients like eggs, liver (with the fat left on), fish fat, meat and bone meals, etc. This is how this product delivers the animal source proteins in abundance along with those starters up front (CBPM, fish meal, beef fat).


You are correct, however you conveniently left out all the chemicals that have been added. Seems like there are ingredients like sunflower oil, dicalcium phosphate, potasium chloride, ferrous sulfate, di-alpha tocopheryl acetate, magnesium oxide, niacinamide, Inosidol, d-calcium pantothenate, L-carnitine, ergocalciferol, mangenise sulfate, menadione sodium bisulfite, cuprite oxide, pyrodoxine hydrochloride, cobalt chloride, sodium selenite, potasium iodide, cyanocoblamin concentrate.



> Plaque is a big issue in dogs; it causes gum disease and tooth loss. ....


What Abady says about plaque is correct as far as kibble goes. However, ripping and tearing meat and dragging it through their teeth as well as eating bone definately beyond the shadow of a doubt DO clean plaque off teeth very effeciently. It is one of the first things very aparent to new raw feeders. Its the first thing they mention.

I don't see anything it a powder food to help in that area.


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## rannmiller (Jun 27, 2008)

RawFedDogs said:


> Aesthetic appeal has nothing to do with feeding dogs. I have no problem with feeding them any part of an animal. BUT ... Yes, those cancerous chickens and chickens that have fallen on the floor and any other chickens that have lost their "human grade" status are contained in chicken meal and chicken by-product meal. There is no chicken that is in too gross a condition to be put in these meals. Yes, there are chicken parts that came from healthy chickens in the meals and probably most of the volume of the chicken meal comes from healthy chickens but the other stuff is in there also.
> 
> Like it or not, thats exactly how it's done. Stuff going to the left goes in dogfood. Stuff going to the right goes to grocery stores.


Well yeah and that's the problem with most/all dog foods. 



RawFedDogs said:


> You also make no progress when rice is included in the formula. That alone makes it an omnivore food.


Indeed, but you have to keep in mind it has less carbs added to it than most foods. Most of them have rice, potatoes, rye, wheat, sweet potatoes, blueberries, apples, carrots, etc. At least this one only has rice, making it an omnivore food. Like I said, it still sucks as an ingredient for a carnivore. 




RawFedDogs said:


> You are correct, however you conveniently left out all the chemicals that have been added. Seems like there are ingredients like sunflower oil, dicalcium phosphate, potasium chloride, ferrous sulfate, di-alpha tocopheryl acetate, magnesium oxide, niacinamide, Inosidol, d-calcium pantothenate, L-carnitine, ergocalciferol, mangenise sulfate, menadione sodium bisulfite, cuprite oxide, pyrodoxine hydrochloride, cobalt chloride, sodium selenite, potasium iodide, cyanocoblamin concentrate.


Yeah, but about 99% of commercial dog foods have all this crap added to it as well, so we can't target _just_ Abady for it. Just goes to show you have to add more stuff to a diet that isn't in it's natural form in order to keep dogs alive and well on it. 



RawFedDogs said:


> What Abady says about plaque is correct as far as kibble goes. However, ripping and tearing meat and dragging it through their teeth as well as eating bone definately beyond the shadow of a doubt DO clean plaque off teeth very effeciently. It is one of the first things very aparent to new raw feeders. Its the first thing they mention.
> 
> I don't see anything it a powder food to help in that area.


It's more preventative. It doesn't contribute to the problem in the first place like kibble does, hence, they say give your dog something to chew on to keep their teeth clean. I think it's like how we could go our lives without eating carbs and sugar and sure we wouldn't have as much plaque on our teeth, but if we don't brush them on a regular basis, they're bound to rot out eventually.


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## RawFedDogs (Jun 16, 2008)

rannmiller said:


> Well yeah and that's the problem with most/all dog foods.


Yes, you're right. I was just making the point because Charlie was claiming that the granulated stuff is not like kibble.



> Indeed, but you have to keep in mind it has less carbs added to it than most foods. Most of them have rice, potatoes, rye, wheat, sweet potatoes, blueberries, apples, carrots, etc. At least this one only has rice, making it an omnivore food. Like I said, it still sucks as an ingredient for a carnivore.


It's still 34% carbs which is a little less than the common kibble but not a lot less. Another way of explaining it is that if you have 5lbs of carbs in a bag of food it doesn't matter if you have 5lbs of rice or 1lb each of potatoes, rye, wheat, appples, & carrots. It's still 5lbs of carbs. 



> Yeah, but about 99% of commercial dog foods have all this crap added to it as well, so we can't target _just_ Abady for it. Just goes to show you have to add more stuff to a diet that isn't in it's natural form in order to keep dogs alive and well on it.


Yes, thats the point I was making. The Abady stuff is basically the same as kibble with a texture difference.



> It's more preventative. It doesn't contribute to the problem in the first place like kibble does, hence, they say give your dog something to chew on to keep their teeth clean. I think it's like how we could go our lives without eating carbs and sugar and sure we wouldn't have as much plaque on our teeth, but if we don't brush them on a regular basis, they're bound to rot out eventually.


Yes


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## claybuster (Dec 18, 2008)

hehe...RFD, you so far off base it is not worth debating about. If you can't see the difference immeadiately by looking at the profile, then there's no need to even attempt to discuss.

If you really think the carb content in Abady is just like a kibble or close to it
shows a lack of knowledge on your part. Kibbles can't even be more that 20% meat or they will fall apart and won't be a kibble. Kibbles therefore by design are way, way higher in carbs.

About those chemicals...our entire bodies are comprised of chemicals. A chemist will probably tell you there is no difference between naturally occurring chemicals in nature and synthetic chemicals produced in a lab, but Abady products are about being natural.


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## RawFedDogs (Jun 16, 2008)

claybuster said:


> hehe...RFD, you so far off base it is not worth debating about. If you can't see the difference immeadiately by looking at the profile, then there's no need to even attempt to discuss.


Yep thats what most people say when they are know they have lost. :smile:



> If you really think the carb content in Abady is just like a kibble or close to it shows a lack of knowledge on your part. Kibbles can't even be more that 20% meat or they will fall apart and won't be a kibble. Kibbles therefore by design are way, way higher in carbs.


As I said, your Abady has a little less carbs than the average kibble. Most kibbles are somewhere between 45% to 55% carbs. A few are a little higher. You Abady is 35% carbs. A little lower but still a lot of carbs for a carnivore. The point I'm making is the point I made in another post. Abady is pretty much like kibble. Not exactly like, but pretty much. It is a cooked mishmash of refuse from human food processing plants. In that regard it is exactly like kibble.



> About those chemicals...our entire bodies are comprised of chemicals. A chemist will probably tell you there is no difference between naturally occurring chemicals in nature and synthetic chemicals produced in a lab, but Abady products are about being natural.


In the dog food world, there is no regulation about what can and can not be labeled as natural. Most anything can be labeled natural. If it occurs in nature, its natural. They may use natural chemicals or synthetic, I don't know. Do they use the right amout of the right chemicals? I don't know that either.


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## claybuster (Dec 18, 2008)

RawFedDogs said:


> Yep thats what most people say when they are know they have lost. :smile:


More like why waste time arguing with a brick wall.



> As I said, your Abady has a little less carbs than the average kibble. Most kibbles are somewhere between 45% to 55% carbs. A few are a little higher. You Abady is 35% carbs. A little lower but still a lot of carbs for a carnivore. The point I'm making is the point I made in another post. Abady is pretty much like kibble. Not exactly like, but pretty much. It is a cooked mishmash of refuse from human food processing plants. In that regard it is exactly like kibble.


Wrong again, my box says 21% carbs. You can pull numbers out of thin air but I'll believe the people that make the food.




> In the dog food world, there is no regulation about what can and can not be labeled as natural. Most anything can be labeled natural. If it occurs in nature, its natural. They may use natural chemicals or synthetic, I don't know. Do they use the right amout of the right chemicals? I don't know that either.


That's right, Abady is about being natural. Corn is out, it is a genetically modified food, oils are natural, not the oil produced in a lab. I have a box of the Abady Dog Snacks and that mentions they don't not use bromated flour.
Bromine is used as a preservative in flour in small amounts. It is also used as rat poison and highly toxic. Also, Bromine is a natural derivative of Kelp. Remember I spoke of plant poisons and delivering sub-lethal poisons over time? Abady takes natural way beyond what you even realize.

Abady is probably more natural that what you're doing but you don't realize this. We all know the EU banned US beef exports at least 10 years ago...why? It is a well know fact steroids, hormones, and antibiotic get worked into our beef supply. Good luck with that stuff. I see greater safety in what I doing.


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## claybuster (Dec 18, 2008)

EnglishBullTerriers said:


> I like the part where they explain the ingredients that they put in their food. I was taught growing up that, 'if you have to expain yourself, then there is a good chance you are wrong!'
> RFD, This is NOT a kibble... This is a 'high quality feed for the natural canine in every dog!!'  Some don't appreciate it when their food is attacked and they feel like they are not feeding the best!
> 
> Good post, I will refer to it when I want to know what else there is on the market besides raw meat! Thanks!!


You're welcome, however if you're feeding baby raw carrots as treats, I don't think BASIC Maintenance would be a good option for you if you can't find raw meat. There are plenty of diets out there claiming to be the next best thing to raw feeding that can accommodate you with healthy doses of plant matter and veg.


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## RawFedDogs (Jun 16, 2008)

I thought I answerd this this morning but I can't find it now so I guess I didn't click the "submit" button so here it is again.



claybuster said:


> Wrong again, my box says 21% carbs. You can pull numbers out of thin air but I'll believe the people that make the food.


No, you see, what you are doing is believing the marketing hype. According to their *Guaranteed* Analysis, you can determine that it has 35% carbs. There are 4 building blocks of food ... protein, fat, carbs, and water. According to the *GUARANTEED* Analysis, your food has 46.8% protein, 12.1% fat, and 5.8% moisture. Add those together and you have 64.7%. Subract that from 100% and you end up with 35.3% carbs. The guaranteed analysis has to be somewhat close to right. The marketing hype can say anything they want to print.



> Remember I spoke of plant poisons and delivering sub-lethal poisons over time? Abady takes natural way beyond what you even realize.


Don't get too carried away with marketing hype. When you try to use it in an argument it will often fail you. :smile:



> I see greater safety in what I doing.


Great. You will continue to feel safe as long as you believe everything they tell you. I wish I owned a used car lot and you were my customer. :smile:


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## claybuster (Dec 18, 2008)

When you look at Abady numbers, keep in mind protein is already calculated in as a dry matter basis, unlike the deception in numbers so often seen within industry standard. So, if your using protein figures as part of the equation to calculate carbs, you would need to rethink this one.

Here's another area where you are thoroughly confused, and that is in regards to white rice. Earlier you stated, what is the difference if one uses white rice instead of a combination of ingredients, and you specifically mentioned wheat, rye, apples, and carrots. Again, this shows complete lack of knowledge in regards to the reasons why certain choices are made.

First, white rice serves up very little protein. In fact, white rice protein cannot grow tissue. You fail to see, in a carnivore type feed, there cannot and should not be any reliance of gluten source proteins within that protein core of the food. Industry standard is a reliance on gluten for these diets are more profitable. Abady has no reliance on gluten, therefore white rice in that respect is the ideal choice. White rice is also a non-allergenic grain source, and people should be aware, if any Vet or health care practitioner tell you your dog is allergic to white rice, hold onto your wallet and get out of there as fast as possible. If you believe white rice can be allergenic, then one probably also believes in myths about ACV and sting bean miracle cures.
White rice became the choice for Abady when genetically modified corn became the norm. What that means is efforts are taken to avoid the "unnatural". If the day ever comes where all one get purchase is GM white rice, I'm sure Abady will move on...to what I don't know. But again, non-allergenic, very little protein, natural, makes white rice the ideal ingredient if a carb source needs to be in there for economics. In all honesty, it comes as no surprise to me that you mentioned those four options
because you don't understand what Abady is doing when it comes to principles behind feeding carnivores. It comes as no surprise you mention both wheat and rye, both very heavy in gluten and totally unsuitable protein for carnivores, because, again, you fail to see what they are doing and are very serious about avoiding gluten. They see it as very dangerous for carnivores for gluten to dominate the protein core, which it does in many rations and is the foundation of allergies. You obviously don't grasp this concept and simply assert, there is no difference if you use white rice or this that and the other thing and it is all marketing hype stuff. How about those other options you mentioned, apples and carrots. Both HIGH FIBER and totally inappropriate for carnivore feeding, but you say oh it doesn't make a difference if they use these combination of ingredients or just that one. It absolutely does makes a difference, but again, can't fault you for the lack of understanding. That's why I stated for me sometimes its not really worth the debate and like talking to a wall because I don't think you fully understand what Abady is doing, the concepts behind what they're doing and the reasons why. High fiber ingredients are seen as dangerous for carnivores. Abady will tell you fiber should not be used to firm stools in dog food, it leads to problems and it IS the direct connection to allergies. Again, most would think as you, what is the difference if you use this or the combination of that, without any regard to what is actually the best and most beneficial for the dog. We all know there is no carb requirement for dogs and we all know
it need not be there in the ration. I'm glad it is, because I don't want to pay $93 instead of 63 for my 35-lb box of feed. White rice is the absolute best economic option and does conform to those principles in feeding a carnivore for the reasons stated above, little protein, non-allergenic and a non toxic natural ingredient.

I know, just a bunch of marketing hype and leftover cancerous slop from the human grade industry...just like a kibble feed...oh brother...WHY DO I EVEN BOTHER PEOPLE.


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## RawFedDogs (Jun 16, 2008)

claybuster said:


> When you look at Abady numbers, keep in mind protein is already calculated in as a dry matter basis, unlike the deception in numbers so often seen within industry standard.


That doesn't change anything. One cup full of your dog food contains 46.8% protein, 12.1% fat, 5.8% moisture, and 35.3% carbs. Period. Thats it. Wet or dry, its included in the calculation. In this case moisture is 5.8%.



> So, if your using protein figures as part of the equation to calculate carbs, you would need to rethink this one.


Hehe, I don't know if its the math you don't understand or the ingredients you don't understand. Moisture is included in the equation. It is good sound math.



> Here's another area where you are thoroughly confused, and that is in regards to white rice. Earlier you stated, what is the difference if one uses white rice instead of a combination of ingredients, and you specifically mentioned wheat, rye, apples, and carrots. Again, this shows complete lack of knowledge in regards to the reasons why certain choices are made.


I'm not confused about anything. Don't give any value to the particular items i included in my list. I just randomly pasted some foods that are plants. The first 5 that came to mind. What they are is meaningless. I was just making a point that it doesn't matter how many different plant species you include it's total carbs that is important.



> First, white rice serves up very little protein.


Cool, you just made my point and greatly helped my argument. Since there is very little protein in white rice, there has to be a great amount of carbs in it. By however small the amount of protein is, you increase the amount of carbs by the same amount to compensate for that. So if you are using one carb ingredient and it has a particularly high volume of carbs you are making the food more worthless than if you just used a variety of plant species with lesser carbs in them.



> In fact, white rice protein cannot grow tissue. You fail to see, in a carnivore type feed, there cannot and should not be any reliance of gluten source proteins within that protein core of the food. Industry standard is a reliance on gluten for these diets are more profitable. Abady has no reliance on gluten, therefore white rice in that respect is the ideal choice. White rice is also a non-allergenic grain source, and people should be aware, if any Vet or health care practitioner tell you your dog is allergic to white rice, hold onto your wallet and get out of there as fast as possible.


You really do fall for the hype. You are a good customer. Any company would be delighted to have you for a customer.



> If you believe white rice can be allergenic, then one probably also believes in myths about ACV and sting bean miracle cures.


I haven't heard about string bean miracle cures but I strongly agree with you about the mythical properties of the snake oil otherwise known as ACV. :smile:



> White rice became the choice for Abady when genetically modified corn became the norm. What that means is efforts are taken to avoid the "unnatural". If the day ever comes where all one get purchase is GM white rice, I'm sure Abady will move on...to what I don't know. But again, non-allergenic, very little protein, natural, makes white rice the ideal ingredient if a carb source needs to be in there for economics.


My feeling is that the less carbs you feed your carnivore the better off you are. I don't understand why a very high carb food is used as a binder in Abady's food. Must be because of cost. I don't buy any of the BS about genetically modified corn. I put that in the same category of microwave ovens modifying the DNA (or is it molecules) in food making it unfit to eat.



> In all honesty, it comes as no surprise to me that you mentioned those four options because you don't understand what Abady is doing when it comes to principles behind feeding carnivores. It comes as no surprise you mention both wheat and rye, both very heavy in gluten and totally unsuitable protein for carnivores, because, again, you fail to see what they are doing and are very serious about avoiding gluten.


Again, don't place any importance in the ingredients I mentioned. They were completely random. The first ones that came to mind. What the ingredients were had nothing to do with the point I was making. I was just comparing 5 random ingredients to an equal volume of one ingredient. Even the species of the one ingredient had no importance in my point.



> They see it as very dangerous for carnivores for gluten to dominate the protein core, which it does in many rations and is the foundation of allergies. You obviously don't grasp this concept and simply assert, there is no difference if you use white rice or this that and the other thing and it is all marketing hype stuff.


You are trying to give a totally unimportant value to a point I was making. My point has nothing to do with allergies, calories, fiber, or anything else pertaining to nutrition other than volume of carbs.



> It absolutely does makes a difference, but again, can't fault you for the lack of understanding.


Hehe, I can't fault you for trying to deflect my point because that one point smears your entire argument all over the place.



> That's why I stated for me sometimes its not really worth the debate and like talking to a wall because I don't think you fully understand what Abady is doing, the concepts behind what they're doing and the reasons why.


I think we are debating different things. I know what Abady is doing. I understand business and how it works. I ran a multimillion dollar business for many years. Albady was/is trying to create their own niche so that his little company has a way to compete with the giant dog food companies. If his product was like all the others, he would have a nearly impossible task to compete.



> High fiber ingredients are seen as dangerous for carnivores. Abady will tell you fiber should not be used to firm stools in dog food, it leads to problems and it IS the direct connection to allergies.


I understand what this hype is about. If the regular dog food companies did not put fiber, and i mean a lot of fiber in thier kibble, all the dogs eating it would have diarrhea all the time. This is because of all the inappropriate ingredients needed to bind the stuff together AND to keep prices low.



> We all know there is no carb requirement for dogs and we all know
> it need not be there in the ration.


On this point we totally agree. And because Abady food doesn't need carbs to bind it together, I can only surmise that it's there to reduce cost.



> I'm glad it is, because I don't want to pay $93 instead of 63 for my 35-lb box of feed.


Well if my dog's prey model raw diet came in a box, a 35lb box of it would cost me $25.20 (around $.72/lb). And it conatains no carbs.



> White rice is the absolute best economic option and does conform to those principles in feeding a carnivore for the reasons stated above, little protein, non-allergenic and a non toxic natural ingredient.


No, I don't think so because of the very high carb content of the rice. Wouldn't it be better to leave the rice out, add some more water and reconstitute the powder back into its original form of meat, bones, and organs? Then as a final touch, elimnate the cooking process. Hehe but then he couldn't make money selling that. :smile:



> I know, just a bunch of marketing hype and leftover cancerous slop from the human grade industry...just like a kibble feed


Now you're learning. YAY you!! :smile: :smile:


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## claybuster (Dec 18, 2008)

RawFedDogs said:


> That doesn't change anything. One cup full of your dog food contains 46.8% protein, 12.1% fat, 5.8% moisture, and 35.3% carbs. Period. Thats it. Wet or dry, its included in the calculation. In this case moisture is 5.8%


Where do you dream this numbers up? It say's what is says on the box.
31/28 protein and fat.


Hey listen, you being a moderator here, people coming in may respect your opinion, when they read nothing more than cancerous slop and a garbage feed, I would hate to see people get the wrong idea. I would just assume to remove the info and not even bother. If you wish I will glady edit my first post and remove the info I posted.


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## claybuster (Dec 18, 2008)

OK, I pulled the info. I would hate to think I am steering people in the wrong direction with my choice of feed. My apologies.

Charlie


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## RawFedDogs (Jun 16, 2008)

claybuster said:


> Where do you dream this numbers up? It say's what is says on the box. 31/28 protein and fat.


OK, sorry. I made a mistake. I was looking at the Maintenance and Stress formula for TOYS instead for adults. My bad.

You are right, the Mantenance and Stress formula for adult dogs analysis is 32.4% protein, 28.9% fat, and 5.6% moisture so by difference that would make the carbs 33.1%. Sorry for the confusion. Does that change the discussion?
Untitled 4



> Hey listen, you being a moderator here, people coming in may respect your opinion, when they read nothing more than cancerous slop and a garbage feed, I would hate to see people get the wrong idea.


My opinion should be respected. I have spent 9 years researching this stuff. I don't just make it up off the top of my head. I hope no one took my statements to say that dog food is nothing more than cancerous slop. It is much more but that stuff is definately in there. Dog food is almost if not completely made up of refuse from the human food processing plants. No dog food company that I know of has their own chicken farms or lamb farms to raise their own food. 



> I would just assume to remove the info and not even bother. If you wish I will glady edit my first post and remove the info I posted.


I don't wish you to remove anything. You are stating your opinion which is what this forum is about. I mearly stated that Abady food is no different than kibble in the sense that it is comprised of cooked refuse from human food processing plants. That is a true statement. You can do the math and see that it can be no other way.

"_Doing The Math
Now when I go to the grocer or health food store and find these types of ingredients in raw, unprocessed, fresh packaged form, I don't see hardly anything for $1 a pound, let alone 50 cents. Some of the organic meats are more than $15 a pound! Something's afoul. But people are just not putting two and two together. How could a producer buy such expensive ingredients (as they are leading the public to believe they do) transport them to their "human grade" factory, grind, mix, extrude, retort, freeze, package, ship, advertise and pay salespeople and hefty margins to distributors, brokers and retailers and then sell them at retail for less than the cost of the bare starting materials? They can't. So obviously manufactured pet foods making such claims are misleading (to put it gently). They may have organic filet mignon and caviar in the food but it would have to be an inconsequential sprinkle at best. Consumers must do the math and get realistic in their expectations._
http://www.wysong.net/health/hl_969.shtml"

This is from the web page of another pet food manufacturer. Another rebel in a similar mold as Mr. Abady.


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## claybuster (Dec 18, 2008)

RawFedDogs said:


> My opinion should be respected. I have spent 9 years researching this stuff. I don't just make it up off the top of my head. I hope no one took my statements to say that dog food is nothing more than cancerous slop. It is much more but that stuff is definately in there. Dog food is almost if not completely made up of refuse from the human food processing plants. No dog food company that I know of has their own chicken farms or lamb farms to raise their own food.


Sorry, I don't respect your opinion because when it comes to Abady products you lump them all in the same barrel with standard kibble. That is an indication to me that you have no clue.

So you think Wysong and Abady come from a similar mold? Wrong again, reason being Wysong can talk a carnivore theme but unfortunately they don't deliver. Let's take a look and I'll highlight to make it easier for you:

Ingredients: Chicken, Chicken Giblets, *Ground Brown Rice*, *Ground Wheat*, *Ground Corn*, *Ground Oat Groats*, Poultry Fat (preserved with mixed Tocopherols as a source of vitamin E), Eggs, *Plums*, *Dried Wheat Grass Powder*, *Dried Barley Grass Powder*, Whey, Dried Yogurt, Lecithin, Citric Acid, *Sage Extract*, *Rosemary Extract*, *Dried Kelp*, Fish Oil, Salt, *Garlic*, Black Pepper, *Artichoke*, L-Carnitine, Direct Fed Microbes (Dried Bacillus subtilis Fermentation Product, Dried Enterococcus faecium Fermentation Product, Dried Lactobacillus acidophilus Fermentation Product, Dried Lactobacillus casei Fermentation Product, Dried Lactobacillus lactis Fermentation Product, Dried Yeast Culture, Dried Aspergillus oryzae Fermentation Product, Dried Aspergillus niger Fermentation Product), Ascorbic Acid, Zinc Proteinate, Iron Proteinate, Vitamin E Supplement, Niacin Supplement, Manganese Proteinate, Calcium Pantothenate, Thiamine Mononitrate, Copper Proteinate, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride, Riboflavin Supplement, Vitamin A Acetate, Folic Acid, Biotin, Vitamin B12 Supplement, Vitamin D3 Supplement.
http://www.wysong.net/MAINTEN

I'm not even going to bother to highlight the rest of the dried stuff after the Artichokes. I included corn not knowing if it is 'natural' or GM.

You can't put Wysong in the same playing field as Abady. No way. Just look at all that stuff I highlighted. You can look at any company you want talking carnivore approach, it doesn't matter which one, none IMO deliver. They all deliver an omnivore style ration. I'll take the white rice being non-allergenic, very weak in protein so it is not calculated as part of the protein core. The protein core in what I am doing is almost entirely animal source.

Robert Abady was the FIRST to develop and sell commercial raw feeds (1970‘s). Granular feeds came second as a convenient option to those who do not want do raw (10 years later). He was the king of raw feeds. The man (RIP) has done more to help the dogs and cats than any other with good solid appropriate nutrition. I not going to leave my info posted here about his products so you can disrespect his feeds and pi$$ all over his grave. It's not right. People can look elsewhere for hard to find info. They don't need to find info here about Abady products not on their website, they can look somewhere else.


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## RawFedDogs (Jun 16, 2008)

claybuster said:


> You can't put Wysong in the same playing field as Abady. No way.


Sure I can. I put all the dog foods on the same playing field. As I have said several times. A cooked mishmash of refuse from the human food processing plants. You can't deny that. They all have protein ... some more than others. All a different ratio of plant protein vs animal protein. They all have fat ... some more than others. They all have carbs ... some more than others. They all have moisture ... some more than others. In that respect, they are all in the came category including Wysong and Abady.



> You can look at any company you want talking carnivore approach, it doesn't matter which one, none IMO deliver. They all deliver an omnivore style ration.


Exactly. Hehe, you don't have to include "IMO" in your statement, none do. No one can deny that. I don't know what you are arguing about. 

The point I was making with my Wysong qoute has nothing to do with Wysong products. My point was the economics as to why dog food must be made from refuse from human food processing plants. 

You have done this a few times in this discussion. I make a statement and you deflect it off in an entirely different direction that had nothing to do with the meaning of my statement.

I originally made a statement about what all dry dog foods are and you have to get into a rant that your dog food is different because its cooked a little different and only has one plant species in it. It does. I agree. It does not change my original statement. It is still in same dog food category. is it better or worse than of the other dry dog foods? Thats something I don't have to worry about. It's the Chevy/Ford argument and I drive a Toyota.



> I'll take the white rice being non-allergenic, very weak in protein


Why settle for a food that is 35% carbs to feed your carnivores? Why not just eliminate the carbs all together? What I've been trying to say is that the carbs in white rice is no less inappropriate than the other ingredients in other foods. AND there are A LOT more ingredients in the Albady stuff other than meat and rice. Is it all appropriate? I don't know. If so, is it in the right amounts? I don't know. If the animal needs it, is it bioavailable in that form? I don't know. The one thing I do know is that I don't have to worry about any of that stuff. I feed my dogs a carnivore diet.



> Robert Abady was the FIRST to develop and sell commercial raw feeds (1970‘s). Granular feeds came second as a convenient option to those who do not want do raw (10 years later). He was the king of raw feeds. The man (RIP) has done more to help the dogs and cats than any other with good solid appropriate nutrition. I not going to leave my info posted here about his products so you can disrespect his feeds and pi$$ all over his grave. It's not right. People can look elsewhere for hard to find info. They don't need to find info here about Abady products not on their website, they can look somewhere else.


Getting a little emotional are we?


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## claybuster (Dec 18, 2008)

RawFedDogs said:


> Getting a little emotional are we?


Nope, I just concluded that the site is not worthy of the info, that's why I removed the links. However, if I have some ingredients one can't find on off the website, I would be sent in a PM.

If you think a granular feed is like a kibble, there is no hope. If you think it is all the mismush of stuff after comparing ingredients profiles with some of the other feeds, I think you need to have your eyes checked. Like I said, this is the wrong site obviously for the info being all the same mismuch of stuff.


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## claybuster (Dec 18, 2008)

RawFedDogs said:


> I'm not confused about anything. Don't give any value to the particular items i included in my list. I just randomly pasted some foods that are plants. The first 5 that came to mind. What they are is meaningless. I was just making a point that it doesn't matter how many different plant species you include it's total carbs that is important.


You can pick 5 more if you want, white rice is the best. Maybe some sun-cured alfalfa and sun-dried kelp? Maybe some potatoes on top of potatoes?
Broccoli, tomatoes, or good old fashion beet pulp? Soy? cranberry? blueberries? White rice is the best for reasons already stated.

One thing that makes Abady a true carnivore type feed (besides having the strongest protein core in the industry) is there is no reliance of any gluten or vegetable textured protein within the protein core. White rice being weak in protein is the ideal ingredient.

So I post ingredients to BASIC maintenance (not even on the website), and RFD for some reason is looking at the Toy Breed formula? Then comes back with the Formula for Maintenance and Stress? That's what I mean about getting those eyes checked. Well, it doesn't really matter because you can pick any one of the 7 main granular feeds, they are all excellent products.

No modern kibble feed has yet to match the strength of the protein core
in BOTTOM LINE MAINTENANCE, a granular feed of older Abady technology from 25 years ago.

BASIC MAINTENANCE is 876 calories per cup, a cup of raw about half that amount.


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