# Dr Jackal and Mr Hide



## thegoodstuff (May 12, 2010)

When I rescued Nicky, he was about 6 months old. He is 6 y/o now. He is a _very_ good natured 65 lb pit/lab mix. Sometimes I say he could possibly be the happiest dog in the world; he even wags his tail when I pet my _other_ dog. He is my shadow. If I am gone from the room for more than a couple of minutes, he comes and finds me. When I leave the house, he's been know to sit at the window overlooking the driveway for hours and hours. It goes the other way too, I've never had a bond like this with any other dog. 

But he does something that I find very disturbing. Im very 'touchy-feeley' with my dogs. Playing, petting, patting etc. They sleep in the bed with me. If I put my face in his chest, or on the back of his neck or pretty much anywhere but in his face, he will 'attack'. He makes a short snarl and comes at at my face. It is very brief but very intense. And scary. For that second or two, he is at full on DEFCON 1, like he was in a dog fight. He's never drawn blood but his teeth have come in contact with my face. Afterward, he just sits there, very submissive with ears flat to head, looking very apologetic. ("Im sorry. I dont know why I do that.")

I wish I knew what this is about. Im starting to take it personally.


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## malluver1005 (Nov 15, 2009)

Maybe it's just something that he doesn't like?? We need to respect their boundaries too...


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## Eurobox (May 17, 2010)

I'm not sure this is what is happening but it could very well be that he feels like you are challenging him? A dominant dog will often put his head over another dogs neck/back and hold him there. Just like mounting. When you go places with him does he walk in front of you? Does he go through doorways before you do? Maybe in your 'pack' he sees himself as higher up than you? 

I have a dominant dog at home. Most people assume that dominant = aggressive. This is not the case. However, I practice NILF (nothing in life is free) and in my pack I am boss. So my male has never put his teeth on me unless invited in play. I can do anything to him, even when I know he is uncomfortable. 

But I also think that all dogs are different. What do you do in these situations? After he has had one of these episodes with you? How do you handle it?


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## Khan (Jan 17, 2010)

Has he always done this, or has this just recently started?
I just wonder if it could be a "health issue"? Could he be losing some hearing or site? Maybe he doesn't see or hear clearly and this action is now startling him. He lashes out, and when he realizes it's you, he stops.


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## whiteleo (Sep 7, 2008)

I don't know if I can shed any light on your problem with your rescue but it sounds very similiar to my issue with my male who I rescued at 11 months old, we are his 3rd owners and he turned 3 in Aug.

I do know some of his history, his first family had a small child that I believe as small tots will do pulled and tugged on him as a small puppy, this family went through a divorce and sold him on craigslist, (against contract) when he was 5 months old. The person that I got him from had originally bought him to breed him, (not a breed specimen) she had no idea what she was doing, she an American Bulldog and thought the breed of the Bull Terrier was similiar. She said he spent most of his time in the crate because when her boys would throw their blankets at his crate he would growl.

Your dog could have possibly been through some terribly teasing as a young dog, I have learned to live with Leo's ways, he didn't do this, humans did this to HIM. 
I never put my face down to his stomach, it only seems to be that area that really bothers him the most.

Rescues all have their own story to tell but we never really know what horrible thing might have happened to them or not, they just know when they are brought into the right home by their savior.


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## stajbs (Jun 5, 2010)

I am surely not a dog trainer but have lived with 7 rescued siberians over a 16 year period. With a rescue there can always be unknowns to contend with.

I will say that I would not put my face/head anywhere near his chest, face and over the back of his neck. It's true that dominant dogs will rest or place their heads over the shoulders/neck of a less dominant dog. It establishes alpha between themselves.

We have worked primarily with the premise that nothing in life is free(NILF), and it has worked for us. We are not fanatical about it, such as making a dog sit, stay or down before offering affection, or a pat or hug, but when it comes to toys, food, treats, who goes down steps first etc. that is where/how we establish who is the leader of this pack. We also really stick with the fair, firm, loving approach. It has worked for us.

Has Nicky always gone to this Defcon level in the 5+ years since he came to you? That would be good to know. Also, is there something going on medically that he may be behaving differently. 

Just some thoughts to ponder. But in no uncertain terms I would not let Nicky get another chance to behave this way towards me. Eliminate the catalyst for this behavior and then sit back and think about what could be the cause. Work from there...think about the medical, have you seen any other changes, if all appears well, then maybe re-establish who is the leader. I truly believe all dogs want a leader, it keeps them balanced for lack of a better term.


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## cast71 (Sep 16, 2010)

Having a dominant breed is alot more work. I agree that dominance doesn't always mean agression. In this case he might think he's alfa. Dominant dogs always want to be alpha. They want to decide who eats and plays. They want to be always in control of all situations. I rescued my dog and he challenged me when I first got him. It is your responsibility to be alpha. I would put him at the lowest position in your family pack, including your other dog. He eats last, goes through doors last, works for food and treats, ignore him, no petting or massage, no play time...... When this behavior improves, than he will get more responsibility in the pack. Otherwise he stays at the bottom. You tell him when to eat, sleep, play........By doing this, you are potentially saving his life. If that dog bites someone by mistake, say goodbye;0( Tough love means, you love him that much more. Dominant breed dogs are definitely not for everyone. They look all cute when there puppies, but not being trained right is a ticking time bomb waiting to happen Sorry if I sound brutal, but I think this is sound advice. I was lucky enough, to be brought up around dobermans. They love to snap! Best of luck:biggrin:


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## xxshaelxx (Mar 8, 2010)

I have to agree with Cast here, and everyone else who has suggested taking back the dominance. Also, allowing a dog to sleep on the bed is one of the biggest causes of dominance issues. It is your place, not your dog's. I allow my dogs on the bed very rarely, and when I do, they're generally never there for very long.


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## cast71 (Sep 16, 2010)

xxshaelxx said:


> I have to agree with Cast here, and everyone else who has suggested taking back the dominance. Also, allowing a dog to sleep on the bed is one of the biggest causes of dominance issues. It is your place, not your dog's. I allow my dogs on the bed very rarely, and when I do, they're generally never there for very long.


When I first got my dog, I let him sleep on the bed. Than I kicked him off. He resisted for a few weeks. I do let him on the couch;0) The other post suggesting he might have an health issue might be right as well. I would get a muzzle and have a vet really check him out. If there is no health issues, I would use the muzzle as an exercise. Put it on and desensitize him. You should be able to touch any part of him, pull food out of his mouth etc..... Also be patient, but very stern. Be alpha, your dog will love you for it:wink:


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## SerenityFL (Sep 28, 2010)

I could not possibly agree more with xxshalexx. If you have a dominant dog, sounds like you might, he should not be allowed on the bed. 

It is my understanding that the bed is viewed as the best place to be. That is where the pack leader sleeps, (you), and when you allow a dominant dog up on that bed, eventually they will, (may), try to gain pack leader role. This results in them snapping, growling or even biting you if you "snuggle" them while they are on the bed.

The very first thing I would do is not allow him on the bed anymore. Take back the leader role that he appears to be trying to gain.

I would really hate to read that he went further and did some serious damage to you...especially in the face. That's dangerous.


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## MollyWoppy (Mar 19, 2010)

I don't know if I'm doing this right or if I'm doing it wrong, but I do let Mollie on the bed. 
But, she HAS to get off the bed the second she's told to. If she doesn't, (which is very rarely), she is made to get down and then is only allowed on again if she is invited. 
I make sure I do the get down thing often, just incase she forgets I'm the boss!


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## stajbs (Jun 5, 2010)

Sounds to me like she "still knows her place" Molly Woppy. lol My two present seniors are not a problem, but they have never been alpha oriented. However I have had 3 other sibes who have had to learn who really owns the bed. Always did it just like you, bed is on my/our terms only. Even the most alpha appreciated those special times. lol


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## SerenityFL (Sep 28, 2010)

I know some trainers will say never to let a dog on the bed, (some say not even in the bedroom)...mainly for this reason but ever since Sakari had her..."incident", (see: drama queen episode), after getting spayed and I let her up on the bed....sigh...I kind of enjoyed them being there.

They still look to it as a special privilege and are only allowed there when I tell them they can be there.

Every once in awhile Shasta will hop on up there without my invitation, tongue hanging out happily like he owns the place and that's when he gets to go sit in the crate for a couple of minutes and think about that!

It makes me feel more secure, (I live alone), it makes them happy, Sakari views it as such a special privilege that she will not budge once she's up there. Shasta has been "kicked off" a few times for trying to take my spot...but overall, it's been a good experience for all of us. That is, until I have the two hoodlums up there, then the 7 cats want to be up there and I have a tiny, thin sliver of room for myself. (Unfortunately, the cats do not listen to me when I tell them I'm the boss. The typical response from them is a lot of hysterical laughter.)

If either one of the hoodlums ever gets to the point where they are showing domination....they will be kicked off the bed and out of the bedroom until they relearn their place.


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## thegoodstuff (May 12, 2010)

I hear what everyone is saying about the alpha thing. That dawned on me after I posted. After I read so many comments about it, it was kinda like ice water in the face. I live alone and I work from home so Im around my dogs 24 hours a day. For six years. I dont get out much. :smile: I am aware that I think of them as people much of the time. I frequently talk to them, like they had any freakin idea what I was saying. But I frequently talk to myself, which I guess is the same thing. I know human psychology doesnt work.

Java will be 14 in March and is above Nicky is. Java gets fed first, get treats first etc. He was diagnosed as hypothyroid at 1 y/o and gets meds twice a day. I put the pills in some creme cheese. Since Nicky joined the pack, he gets a 'blank' in the morning and a 'live one' at night when they both get a fish oil cap. He waits patiently across the room for Java to get his before coming over to get his. I've watched him stand tentatively a few feet from the water bowl while he waits for Java to finish drinking, before he takes his turn. But they will eat from the same plate at the same time without any problem and we're talking high value food like licking my dinner plate clean if I put it down for them. If I am going to eat at the same time as them, they have to wait for me to eat first (without begging). 


I havent walked them together in a couple of months because Nicky got TTA surgery in October. Java is a 'walk 3 steps then stop and sniff' dog and Nicky's rehab includes "20 minute walks" not 20 minutes of stop n go. But before that, they both walked in front of me. Nicky likes to pull, thats why I got the head collar. On walks, his MO is ears and tail up, always alert. I was amazed the first time I walked him by himself off leash, he was like a different dog - ears and tail down, stuck like glue at my heel, very submissive. He did this without any prompting from me. ( I dont know where carrying a dog rates; Ive been carrying him the 2 sets of stairs to get outside for 7 weeks now)

It makes sense about not letting them on the bed. What you guys are saying is so obvious now. So when Nicky curls up next to my head and has his chin on the pillow above me, thats dominant. When he sleeps in my spot, thats dominant. When he puts his paw(s) on my legs or rests his chin on my lap, thats dominant., is that what you're saying? Sometimes he sits at the foot of the bed on the floor and just waits. When I tell him to come up, he does so gingerly sometimes. I would find it very difficult to forbid them from being on the bed. I think its true - "ignorance is bliss" Now that this discussion has forced me into seeing things the way they are, I am very conflicted. Nobody can BS me better than me. All of a sudden, I dont know where to start.

All of what I have fooled myself into believing was affection could just be attempts to dominate. Im not completely ignorant about it, its just that I fool myself because I have spent so long putting so much energy into the idea that they are more than they are. Hello! Theyre just dogs.

How sad.


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## stajbs (Jun 5, 2010)

Goodstuff, don't get down on yourself. Sometimes what is obvious to others is not so obvious to us at the time. I have rescued a sibe who, upon arrival at my house I discovered was totally obedience trained, very affectionate and a truly sweet boy. I didn't know till a knowledgeable friend came over to see me that yes he was wonderful but he was subtley dominant. He heeled, sat, did down stays and was a total charm, but he also leaned against us when we stopped walking, and sometimes put his paw on top of our foot. Well, I had a friend point out I was letting this new sweet boy dominate us in a somewhat passive sort of way. Eventually I think we would have had problems if she had not told us this. We had never had a sibe do these things, so we learned. He also taught us about gaurding his food, or toys. He definitely had resource protecting issues. So we educated ourselves about how to handle that too, and got that resolved fairly quickly. However except for one or two other people besides us, I knew I still would not have trusted him to behave if someone he didn't respect went to take his toy. Every dog is different, sometimes we have to step back and look at ourselves and our dogs from an outsiders point of view. It's a great way to decide if there is a problem, learn, and move forward. For me personally I don't strive to look at mysellf as alpha so much as our dogs' leader. In a pack, the alpha is the leader. But I believe one can be their dogs leader in fair and loving ways, and also being their to correct problems fairly and immediately when they arise. 

Sit back, take a look at the total picture as you are doing and I believe you may be able to eliminate/prevent these problems. If there are still unresolved issues then maybe consult a trainer.


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## cast71 (Sep 16, 2010)

I agree, don't beat yourself up over it. Just make it a goal to stop the snarling attacking behavior. You want to nip it in the bud before it becomes a real problem. I know alot of people let there dogs on the bed. What I would do is make them earn the spot on the bed. Never let them go on the bed by themselves. Only if you invite them up. It's still your bed:wink: I let my dog on the couch and he pretty much sleeps on top of me. He's a 85 lb. lapdog ahahahaha Like stajbs said, you don't have to be ultra conservative. Just make sure you correct your dogs when there out of line. There smart and pick up every little thing. They will realize your in charge.


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## RawFedDogs (Jun 16, 2008)

stajbs said:


> For me personally I don't strive to look at mysellf as alpha so much as our dogs' leader. In a pack, the alpha is the leader. But I believe one can be their dogs leader in fair and loving ways, and also being their to correct problems fairly and immediately when they arise.
> 
> Sit back, take a look at the total picture as you are doing and I believe you may be able to eliminate/prevent these problems. If there are still unresolved issues then maybe consult a trainer.


I was directed to a perfect description of my concept of the perfect relationship between dog and human. I can't remember if it was Natalie or Linsey who directed me to this web page. I think it was one of them in a conversation I had with them the other day. I think it was Linsey. Anyway here it is:

_"Every pet needs a human who can lead. Not like a boss, but like a partner in a dance—someone who gives clear signals, rewards desirable behavior as it occurs, removes rewards for inappropriate behavior immediately, and sticks to the plan consistently until the new, good behavior is a habit."_
Dr. Sophia Yin 
Meet Sophia | Dr. Sophia Yin, DVM, MS


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## stajbs (Jun 5, 2010)

I love it RFD, that says precisely what I was trying to say, and for us personally the type of relationships we have enjoyed with our dogs. Now quite possibly with them being rescues that was a more challenging path at times, it was rewarding. Plus we learned, we learned so much, and our lives have been so enriched. Thank you for sharing that.

Jackie


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