# Training revisited



## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

After several months of clicker-type training with my dog, i realized we weren't getting anywhere. So i started looking for something else, that wasn't cruel, and that would actually work for us. 

I found Adam Katz on the internet, joined his website, downloaded his book, and eventually found a local trainer who trained with his style. 

Here is his blog, with short videos showing his methods of training, and the way that Rebel and I learned together.

I don't feel like I have ever been cruel to my dog - never punished him, hit him, dominated him, choked him out, manhandled him, etc. He has never been leery of me, or scared of me, in any way. 

Now, alot of people may feel that this is cruel - I swore for months that I would never put a prong collar on my dog, mainly because I had never done it and I listened to people who told me it was cruel. I no longer feel that way. I came to Adam Katz' site out of desperation because I couldn't even take my dog for a pleasant walk.

I am not trying to change anyone's mind - if you don't like this, you don't like it. If positive only training works fantastic for you, that's wonderful. The only reason I am posting this is because i want to say - if you have been doing positive-only training for months and months, and you are still struggling, there is another way I feel has been a thoroughly positive, enjoyable, and productive journey for both me and my dog.

Adam Katzs Adventures In Dog Training Blog


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## RawFedDogs (Jun 16, 2008)

Adam Katz's training methods are very cruel and should never be considered by anyone. If positive training (clicker or any other kind) is not working for you, its not because it doesn't work or something is wrong with your dog. It's because you haven't learned how to do it. Hire a positive trainer to help you. Positive training and clicker training will work on any dog anytime with anything you want to teach him. Now get back on track and learn the proper way to do it and don't ruin your relationship with your dog.


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## SilverBeat (Jan 16, 2011)

I have to say I agree with Bill, in the "loose leash" video, he yanked the dog [whilst changing direction unannounced] so hard that the poor thing's entire body flipped around in mid-air! Also I am really not crazy about the pinch collar, especially when it is referred to as a "training collar"
And I know that it's a little dog, but still, a lot of the "corrections" [aka yanking on the leash] he uses cause the dog's whole body to move.
And the voiceover is saying "...and you see that, after the correction, I've got 100% of his attention." Yeah buddy, your dog's looking at you with his tail between his legs and his ears back because he doesn't know what you're going to do next.


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## DaneMama (Jun 27, 2008)

Even I being somewhat proficient with a clicker for the past few years needed quite a bit of guidance with using one. I've learned more about positive reinforcement and HOW to use a clicker the right way in the past few months in my training class to become a certified pet dog trainer. Clicker training itself is the fastest way to train and teach a dog...or horse...or chicken. It's the mechanics of proper clicker training that make it effective. Having a clicker in your hand during a training session is useless if you don't know how it works. And if you didn't see results quickly with one then your mechanics are off.

Timing is everything with clicker training. Getting the timing right is the biggest thing I see people struggle with. One piece of advice/homework that I've found to be incredibly helpful is having someone help you get your mechanics spot on before you even start working with the clicker and the dog, like I said it's a useless tool if you don't use it right. 

Here's a couple of exercises you can do to improve motor control and timing. At first just have the clicker in your hand. Once you've got your excellent timing down, get treats and a leash (no dog yet). Hold the clicker and leash in the same hand and the treats in the other. Each time you click "reinforce your dog" by placing a treat in a cup (pseudo dog) within 1 second of your click (timing is everything and you must be on your toes). 

When watching tv click every time the screen/angle/shot changes. Try and do it instantly. 

Have someone toss a ball in the air in front of you and click as soon as the ball reaches it's highest point (this is harder because you have to be watching constantly).

Have someone touch the palm of their hand with the other hand, each time they touch the center of their palm click. Make sure they change it up by touching other parts of their hand/arm or the air around their hand. This is even more difficult.

Sit outside and watch cars pass by and each time they pass a certain point click.

This is just a basic first step to clicker training but I feel it sets you up for success. I really hope you give it another chance rather than resorting to coercion type training styles.


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## bernadettelevis (Feb 2, 2011)

here's a success story that might bring you back to clicker training.

I have a weim and well, he was a "puller" on leash! 100% my fault because when he was a puppy i only trained him without a leash, because that was more important to me well yeah...
So then he grew, and grew and leash walking wasn't as plesant anymore!
I tried differnt collars (no prong, because they are frobidden in Austria, as well as shok collars or any other electrical or mechanical devices), haranesses and saw a result for a very short time with one harness, but as soon as it was off, he was pulling again.... i was really desperate! At least i can trust him 100% when he'S off leash....

So last winter i decided to start from the very beginning with loose leash walking. I now only use clicker and positive reinforcement and i turnn into a "tree" when he pulls.
Believe me the first to weeks he was a pain in the a$%! But i finally saw improvements!
I have a offleash area right next to where i live, so i went out of the house and didn't need a leash! But i've changed that! Now before and after off-leash time, we made a little walk through the neighborhood (at least now i know some of our neighbor )
And i was seeing improvement every day!!! Right now we are at the point where we can walk on a looseleash and i can hold the leash with only one finger, even if kids or other dogs or cats pass by.

So today i was meeting some friends downtown. I parked the car and we walked to the place where we met!
There was some event today so there were many people, kids, other dogs, trams, birds loud noises and so on....
I was a bit concerned that he would pull again!! 
However loose leash all the time. I could hold the leash with one finger! I'm so proud of him and myself!!!!
And i didn't have treats or a clicker with me!! I praised him all the time and he was soooooo good!

Maybe this story gives you some hope!!!


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## CavePaws (Jan 25, 2011)

I agree 100% with Bill and Natalie. Clicker training will work on every animal if done correctly, the only thing that can go wrong is user error.


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## Celt (Dec 27, 2010)

this is a tad off topic, but clicker training doesn't work for all dogs. i tried clicker training my first ig, but to him clickers are evil monsters, even the trainer gave up trying to use one with him. i do agree that positive training is best, but sometimes the method has to be "fiddled" with to make it work.


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## pandaparade (Dec 29, 2010)

Celt said:


> this is a tad off topic, but clicker training doesn't work for all dogs. i tried clicker training my first ig, but to him clickers are evil monsters, even the trainer gave up trying to use one with him. i do agree that positive training is best, but sometimes the method has to be "fiddled" with to make it work.


Fiddled in what way to make what work? Clicker training is positive reinforcement when used the right way. You don't _have_ to use a clicker for positive reinforcement. If a dog doesn't like a clicker, there are always different shaped clickers, sizes, and different sounds you can use. You just want something very distinct and always the same tone. When you say evil monsters, do you mean the sound was scary or the object itself?

Like Bill said, "If positive training (clicker or any other kind) is not working for you, its not because it doesn't work or something is wrong with your dog." You do not have to mess with anything unless it is the object that scared the dog. Although, I may not of understood what you said. I do not mean to start anything, I would just like to know why this dog thought a clicker was scary and why the method (positive reinforcement) had to change.

ETA: I am working with this 6 month old aussie female, Katie, who used to be trained with compulsion and we are just starting her out on clicker training. I also am working with a very young bull dog puppy even younger than Katie. The bulldog is learning what a clicker is super fast and it totally clicks with him. Katie? Well it is day three and she still hasn't learned too much, but we can see that she is improving and understanding what to do with targeting. Some dogs can struggle with clicker training, not positive reinforcement. Katie is struggling with what we want her to do, but like I said, we can see steady improvement. The very young bulldog learned faster than an older aussie. All dogs learn differently, it just takes time even if you are great with mechanics as well! Danemama threw out a good few tips as well. It reminded me of getting to one day train chickens at chicken camp lol. I can not wait for that!


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## Celt (Dec 27, 2010)

pandaparade---when i said "fiddle" with the method, i meant that sometimes you have to find what works for your dog. not all dogs respond to clickers or typical treats.we didn't have to change the positivie training, just the "clicker" part of it. we never figured out what made blaise hate the clicker but from the very first time it "unnerved" him. we couldn't even get to loading the clicker.the trainer had us try several "kinds", wrapping it in cloth to dull the sound, nothing.we just "left" out the clicker when we trained.


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## pandaparade (Dec 29, 2010)

Ohh ok, I kinda thought that is what you meant. Glad you didn't ditch the method itself  and just the clicker!


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## CavePaws (Jan 25, 2011)

Clicker training is a form of "Mark and Reward" training. :] The clicker is such a great tool because of how precise it is, everytime you click the duration of the click and the tone of the click are exactly the same. With your voice you can have lots of variation in the tone and length of the word "Yes". Mark and Reward training will work with any dog, I guess that is a more fair way to put it. I'm working with a deaf dog named Sam and for his marker we are using a vibration from a vibrating collar. 

Are you talking about Bob Bailey's camp, Panda? I want to do that too.


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## pandaparade (Dec 29, 2010)

Kelly, Our facility is going to have one soon may be within the year.

You should come


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## 3Musketeers (Nov 4, 2010)

That dog looks pretty stressed out :/. I'm no trainer but while he does give some good advice, like walking in the opposite direction, I don't like how he yanks the leash or uses a prong collar to pinch/poke the dog.

I've been using the turn around and walk the other direction method successfully. Especially with my Sparky who's pretty stubborn on a leash and usually refuses to acknowledge my existence for the first 10-20 minutes.
Now, I do *not* use a prong collar, I *don't* yank on the leash, sure I'll pull back a bit gently, and repeatedly if he decides it's more important to try and pee on a tree than to walk by my side or look at me, but with no harsh corrections that will confuse or scare him. I figured I could totally use it against him too, since on walks he's not too interested in treats. When he *finally* gives in and realizes that pulling at the leash isn't going to work, the prize for sitting and looking at me instead is... he gets to pee on the tree on command, yay!

It's probably not the best method, since I sort of came up with part of it, and it is working, but it does take a lot of patience now, I started at 1 hour and have gone down to about 10-15 min minimum every session just to get him to calm down and finally walk by my side. Same if he sees a cat, nope not going anywhere if you jump around on the leash, when he calms down he gets to get closer to the cat.
Clicker training would probably make this faster... if I knew how to use a clicker, but I'm finding that it isn't a necessity in training.
With him barking at things through the window (yep he's the "problem dog" of the three) I figured he likes to sit on my lap and be cuddled more than he likes barking at stuff, so I'll tell him "Sparky, no, come here" and if he stops barking and comes to me, he gets to sit on my lap, hooray!

Positive reinforcement does work, but it does take patience, especially with stubborn dogs (and I personally do use corrections, like saying no, or staring >_< ) but nothing harsh.


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## CavePaws (Jan 25, 2011)

Ashley let me know when! I will definitely sign up, that sounds like so much fun! :] I'm always down for seminars/workshops!


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## SilverBeat (Jan 16, 2011)

3Musketeers said:


> That dog looks pretty stressed out :/. I'm no trainer but while he does give some good advice, like walking in the opposite direction, I don't like how he yanks the leash or uses a prong collar to pinch/poke the dog.
> 
> I've been using the turn around and walk the other direction method successfully. Especially with my Sparky who's pretty stubborn on a leash and usually refuses to acknowledge my existence for the first 10-20 minutes.
> Now, I do *not* use a prong collar, I *don't* yank on the leash, sure I'll pull back a bit gently, and repeatedly if he decides it's more important to try and pee on a tree than to walk by my side or look at me, but with no harsh corrections that will confuse or scare him. I figured I could totally use it against him too, since on walks he's not too interested in treats. When he *finally* gives in and realizes that pulling at the leash isn't going to work, the prize for sitting and looking at me instead is... he gets to pee on the tree on command, yay!
> ...


I don't use a clicker *all* the time on our walks, but when I do, I just clip it right onto the leash, keep a baggie of treats [usually a medley of cheese/hot dogs/elk jerkey all cut up into microscopically small bits] in my coat pocket and ask various things of him like "back up" [stop pulling on the leash and come back to me] "easy" [if he is nearing the end of the leash] "come" "by me" [heel], clicking and treating when he does them. I also click and treat for things I don't ask for, like looking at me or walking by me without being asked or prompted.. I usually do a training walk like this once or twice a week, and I vary the days/length of the walk, etc. We often take breaks in between. I always keep some form of treats in my pocket for consistency.

ETA: I use "ah ah" and penalty steps [going away from what the dog wants] that's the only correction I use...


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## RawFedDogs (Jun 16, 2008)

CavePaws said:


> Are you talking about Bob Bailey's camp, Panda? I want to do that too.


I trained chickens with Bob Bailey one time. It was a great learning experience (for me, not the chicken :smile I didn't know he was still conducting his workshops. The last time I saw him about 5 or 6 years ago, he was about to retire.

*ETA:* For the person whose dog was afraid of the clicker, I always had good luck using a ball point pen in that situation.


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## CavePaws (Jan 25, 2011)

LOL. I really had a laugh there, it was a great learning experience for the chicken too, I'm sure.  I'm not sure if he is retired? I was just looking for seminars by him...The most current I saw he did was last year. I might not be looking hard enough for upcoming ones. Does he only teach in Sweden?! It looks as though Terry Ryan has many upcoming chicken camps though.


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## RawFedDogs (Jun 16, 2008)

Bob Bailey is from Arkansas and that is where he teaches (taught) most.


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## pandaparade (Dec 29, 2010)

I believe we are going to do chicken camp on our own with our own instructors.


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## CavePaws (Jan 25, 2011)

Hmm, odd, I just read something about him teaching in Sweden. I knew he had his facility in Arkansas, but have a look. It seems he is doing workshops in Sweden this year!

Ashley, PM me when/details whenever you find out and I'll sign up early. Is it open to trainers from all over the place?


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## Celt (Dec 27, 2010)

RawFedDogs--we tried using a pen, got the same response. "slicked back" ears, sucked in lips, and narrowed eyes. he wouldn't even take treats if the clicker was just being held so he could see it. (sigh) he is our brat dog.


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## pandaparade (Dec 29, 2010)

Kelly, I am 99% sure it is


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## KittyKat (Feb 11, 2011)

I personally think clickers are more for the human then the dog. I use what's considered a positive method however, just without the use of a clicker.


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## RawFedDogs (Jun 16, 2008)

KittyKat said:


> I personally think clickers are more for the human then the dog. I use what's considered a positive method however, just without the use of a clicker.


No, its just as much for the dog. There are sound psychological principles behind them. They do work faster and stronger than no clicker.


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## jiml (Jun 29, 2010)

I have read adam katz's book. I am by no means against corrections and consider my self a "balanced trainer" I do feel that katz is not. He is a heavy handed aversive based trainer.


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