# My puppy looks terrible on Raw



## Gracelikerain (Jan 4, 2012)

I am at my wits end trying to feed raw. 


I am going on month 3 and I am so sick of combing meat out of his beard, washing bloody feet, and brushing gunk out of his teeth. His littermates are all on average grain-free foods with better coats, no retained baby teeth, and better muscle mass. I am meticulous about his diet and exercise and he looks awful. To top it all off he has 3 retained puppy teeth at 6 months and has substantial tartar on his back teeth. 

I really felt like raw was the best thing for him and I defended my decision to his co-owner, my family, and my friends but now I am starting to regret ever going down this path.


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## xchairity_casex (Oct 8, 2011)

so your having issues with his teeth and food in his coat?

as for his teeth how much bone in meals does he get and what kind of bones? do you cut them up or grind them? he needs to be able to chew and crunch up decent sized bones for them to clean his teeth if the bones are cut into bite sized chunks or ground they will not help his teeth.

if your upset about his coat maybe you cut cut the meat (not the bones) into smaller strips or bite sized pieces so he doesnt have to knaw away at them and he wont have such a messy coat. when i was feeding my sisters toy poodle raw she wouldnt eat whole pieces of meat i had to cut it off the bone in the begining and feed the bones seperatly from the meat and cut the meat into small chunks untill she figured out how to manage it.


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## Makovach (Jan 24, 2012)

What breed is he? 
What is his weight?
What does a weekly feeding scheduled look like?
What proteins are you providing?
Do you feed whole raw, or premade patties/cubes?

To better understand the situation, we will need a little bit more information. 
Maybe there is something you are missing that some one will catch? 
I hope we can figure something out to get your puppy on track. 

As far as the feet and beard go, I don't know that there is any avoiding that. Some dogs are messy eaters. 

Hopefully some one will come along soon with advice!


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## PDXdogmom (Jun 30, 2010)

I'm sure some raw feeders will have some suggestions for you and maybe that will help. If you decide raw feeding is simply not for you or your dog at this time, there are certainly other options that will allow you to have a healthy and happy dog. It's especially important during puppyhood to get the appropriate nutrients. You may want to take a look at the "all life stages" Acana formulas (grain-free), Fromm Puppy Gold, or California Natural Chicken Meal & Rice Puppy.


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## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

What exactly are you feeding him? A raw fed dog fed correctly won't have tarter on their back teeth.


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## DaViking (Sep 27, 2011)

*Come join the dark side, we have lemonade and kibble* :evil:










No seriously, the raw feeders here probably need more info before they can help out. If raw doesn't work out there are excellent dry or dehydrated foods that in the end might yield better results and be more appropriate in your case. No dog is equal, regardless of feeding he might never get the same qualities as his siblings.


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## Gracelikerain (Jan 4, 2012)

What breed is he? 6 month old miniature schnauzer

What is his weight? 12.6 lbs as of Monday

What does a weekly feeding scheduled look like? he gets 10 oz per day and I do the 80-10-10 ratio (but more like a 70-10-10-10 with ample fat). 

Every am he gets a 3 oz chicken neck, rib cage, or back which provides 1 oz of bone plus 2 oz of meat, lunch and dinner is 3 oz of meat plus either .5 oz of beef kidney or .5 oz of chicken liver. The meat is rotated on a daily basis. 

What proteins are you providing? Chicken (necks, back, rib cages, feet, liver), Beef (ground from Blue Ridge, scrap pieces, kidney), Pork (fatty small cuts), Venison (ground from private source), Tripe (blue ridge), Carp (chunks), Salmon (chunks), sardines (chunks but I cut it out because the odor in his beard was unbearable). All meat is either from Blue Ridge Beef, or from our farmer's market and is stamped organic, grain-free, antibiotic free, cage-free. He also gets orijen regional red for treats in addition to carrots, apple chunks, cheese, and a little bit of yogurt. 

Do you feed whole raw, or premade patties/cubes? both

He also gets beef RMBs.


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## RCTRIPLEFRESH5 (Feb 11, 2010)

<-------- dirty mind lols


Gracelikerain said:


> I am at my wits end trying to feed raw.
> 
> *
> I am going on month 3 and I am so sick of coming meat out of his beard*, washing bloody feet, and brushing gunk out of his teeth. His littermates are all on average grain-free foods with better coats, no retained baby teeth, and better muscle mass. I am meticulous about his diet and exercise and he looks awful. To top it all off he has 3 retained puppy teeth at 6 months and has substantial tartar on his back teeth.
> ...


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## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

i think you should find a good dry food. And probably get his teeth checked - if he's chewing bones he's not using his back teeth or they wouldn't have tarter on them, i wouldn't think. I've never heard of a dog who is eating bones and still getting tarter on the back. Normallly, like my dog they might have some tarter on the front teeth because they don't use them as much.


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## Gracelikerain (Jan 4, 2012)

xellil said:


> i think you should find a good dry food. And probably get his teeth checked - if he's chewing bones he's not using his back teeth or they wouldn't have tarter on them, i wouldn't think. I've never heard of a dog who is eating bones and still getting tarter on the back. Normallly, like my dog they might have some tarter on the front teeth because they don't use them as much.


He is going in next week to have his remaining 4 puppy teeth extracted (3 canines and 1 back molar) and I'm going to have them look at his mouth to see if anything abnormal is going on. Considering his "oldest" permanent tooth is all of a month or two old, I have no idea how he already has tartar. He definitely uses his back teeth to chew but since his baby molar is on the same side as the worse tartar, perhaps he is subtly favoring one side of his mouth.


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## RCTRIPLEFRESH5 (Feb 11, 2010)

Gracelikerain said:


> He is going in next week to have his remaining 4 puppy teeth extracted (3 canines and 1 back molar) and I'm going to have them look at his mouth to see if anything abnormal is going on. Considering his "oldest" permanent tooth is all of a month or two old, I have no idea how he already has tartar. He definitely uses his back teeth to chew but since his baby molar is on the same side as the worse tartar, perhaps he is subtly favoring one side of his mouth.


buy him some acana or back to basics...it's incredibly stupid to feed raw whe it produces bad results..kibble is easier and you should not be made to feel guilty or lee of a pet owner for doing so. was your pup still looking awful on kibble? maybe it's a runt?


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## Liz (Sep 27, 2010)

You do realize you are in the raw feeding section, RC. This would not be taken kindly to in the kibble section - I know from experience.


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## RCTRIPLEFRESH5 (Feb 11, 2010)

yes im in the raw section suggesting that he switch to kibble..nothing wrong with that..considering he never said in his op that he is against kibble..but people in the kibble section suggest raw all of the time when people adamantly say they are against it.
If the op says he doesnt want to go back to kibble than i will not mention it again!


Liz said:


> You do realize you are in the raw feeding section, RC. This would not be taken kindly to in the kibble section - I know from experience.


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## bridget246 (Oct 26, 2011)

Liz said:


> You do realize you are in the raw feeding section, RC. This would not be taken kindly to in the kibble section - I know from experience.


It sounds like the OP might be doing something wrong with this raw fed dog. Either that or the dog has a serious problem. I'm leaning towards all of the above. Getting raw meat out of the dogs fur? Is it diving in the meat? Or is it sticking around the face only?



RCTRIPLEFRESH5 said:


> buy him some acana or back to basics...it's incredibly stupid to feed raw whe it produces bad results..kibble is easier and you should not be made to feel guilty or lee of a pet owner for doing so. was your pup still looking awful on kibble? maybe it's a runt?


I go into the kibble section promoting raw all the time so I welcome them to come here and do the same. If people aren't willing to follow the rules of the raw diet and actually be willing to adjust it based on their dogs needs then maybe kibble is going to be their best plan.


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## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

RCTRIPLEFRESH5 said:


> buy him some acana or back to basics...it's incredibly stupid to feed raw whe it produces bad results..kibble is easier and you should not be made to feel guilty or lee of a pet owner for doing so. was your pup still looking awful on kibble? maybe it's a runt?


It's also incredibly stupid to feed kibble when raw is so much better for your dog. Many millions of people do that every day. 

I told her to go get some dry dog food. I believe she should. Either her dog has really bad teeth or she is doing something wrong, or both. but she is not being "incredibly stupid" and no one is making her feel guilty for anything except YOU.


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## Liz (Sep 27, 2010)

I am sorry you are unhappy with your results. I see quite a bit of ground meats which I personally wouldn't feed so much of, you offer a nice variety. Teeth, as I have learned having shelties is most often a breed issues and one sibling or two might not have the best teeth and the other four or five have great teeth so I can't really blame raw for the teeth as their seems to be issues there. The beard thing is hard. None of my dogs have long hair on their face but they are long coated breeds so I do understand having to clean feet or bibs now and then. You have only been on raw 3 months I believe you said and that is really not enough time to see the benefits of raw. My dogs were still detoxing and looked atrocious at 3 months in - by 9 months their were stunning. I also never compare my dogs with kibble fed dogs as growth rates and such tend to be very different. If you want to stay on raw please wait for Dane Mamma to answer and share some wisdom. If you choose to go to kibble please be sure to ask in the Kibble section for recommendations as there are some very wise kibble feeders there who would love to share their wisdom with you. Dehydrated might also be a good way for you to go. Either way you choose just be sure to be committed and content with the path you choose for your pup. I am sorry you feel let down. Some of what you are stating is more of a breeding issue (teeth) and some is hygeine - you just sound real unhappy. Even when I have to clean 7 sets of paws I am happy with my decision. Hoep you can get a good direction for your pup and yourself.


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## bridget246 (Oct 26, 2011)

xellil said:


> It's also incredibly stupid to feed kibble when raw is so much better for your dog. Many millions of people do that every day.
> 
> I told her to go get some dry dog food. I believe she should. Either her dog has really bad teeth or she is doing something wrong, or both. but she is not being "incredibly stupid" and no one is making her feel guilty for anything except YOU.


I'm in total agreement with this. 

To go off what I was saying before. If kibble feeders want to come into the raw threads then by all means come forward and bring your A game. We have nothing to hide. Prove to us that your method is better. I will be more than willing to put my raw diet up against _any_ kibble brand of food that you might choose to feed. A small few of kibble feeders complain and moan whenever we try to help out one of their dogs by recommending a better diet but isn't the majority. It is an online public forum. It is wrong to push things too far, but never be afraid to make a recommendation in another place if you actually think it might help the dog. I wouldn't have been feeding a raw diet now if people didn't keep invading my threads with short raw facts. 

I don't see this forum as being raw feeders and kibble feeders. What I see here is a community who is interested in doing whatever they can to help improve the health of their dogs. So lets stop the fighting and increase the helping.


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## DaViking (Sep 27, 2011)

I think the ones straying off topic here with bickering should stop, and listen and learn more from Liz before it ends up as another annoying useless thread. my $0.02


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## RCTRIPLEFRESH5 (Feb 11, 2010)

raw is better for SOMe dogs...not this one..and yu said to try a dry food


xellil said:


> It's also incredibly stupid to feed kibble when raw is so much better for your dog. Many millions of people do that every day.
> 
> I told her to go get some dry dog food. I believe she should. Either her dog has really bad teeth or she is doing something wrong, or both. but she is not being "incredibly stupid" and no one is making her feel guilty for anything except YOU.


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## meggels (May 30, 2010)

Is it normal for a 6 month old dog to have bad teeth...so young??? Even if they were fed kibble? Abbie is a kibble fed dog and at 2.5 she has just a itty bitty tiny amount of tartar on her two big canines...


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## Liz (Sep 27, 2010)

Mentioning it was not the problem more the "it is incredibly stupid remark" Nothing the OP is stating is really horrendous. Ground meat tends to get into coats, the teeth issue is generally more a breeding thing especially in small dogs. Otherwise a few others mentioned kibble and I couldn't care less - that should be an option if the OP is unhappy or the dog truly isn't doing well. That said our little civility rule should hold true in both the raw and kibble sides. Play nice and all is well - call each others way stupid and it's all up for grabs. :tongue1: I don't think someone unhappy with their feeding method should continue it but newbie mistakes might be correctable and leave a satisfied person and pup.


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## DaneMama (Jun 27, 2008)

The only thing that worries me with the way your puppy looks is the teeth. He may not be chewing his food well because that retained back puppy tooth. Retained teeth can be pretty painful which would explain the tartar. Some dogs just have poorer dental hygiene than others which schnauzers are incredibly prone to dental disease....it's something that is well known in the vet world. One thing is for 100% certain....switching to kibble will not help his teeth one bit, actually will have the opposite effect. 

As for the meat you listed, I agree with Liz...way too much ground stuff. I'd rather see you feed whole chunks of meat that aren't ground. Grinding meat exposes the nutrients to oxygen which degrades them quite a bit. Feeding ground meat should be kept to a minimum....like once a week at most IMO. Also, not feeding ground meats will help with the meat chunks in his fur. Whole chunks aren't as messy. 

His hair coat condition is only slightly worrisome since most dogs take a few good months to fully adjust to raw. I would just give it more time. Especially if you start feeding whole meats that are more appropriate. 

I hope you stick it out but if not there are plenty of helpful and friendly kibble feeders.


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## meggels (May 30, 2010)

Very well said Liz.


I think I'm lucky in that Murph has really great teeth. Thank god, it's hard to even see in that mouth of his, once you peel back his fat lips...it's like a damn black hole in there.


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## Liz (Sep 27, 2010)

No it is not "normal" for such a young dog to have bad teeth. Sometimes our little dogs can be bred for a narrower mouth causing teeth to be set in a strange or less than natural alignment and spacing which causes things like tartar build up and difficulty losing baby teeth. That is why I was not including the teeth as a raw issue - that one thing I would really look at the structure of the particular dog's mouth so starting at the vet is a good place for that issue. Hygiene is difficult as some people are more particular than others and and some dogs neater than others. I am pets sitting a Dane that is so dainty when she eats she makes my collies look like Tasmanian devils. LOL It sound like Murph does not have issues and if he doesn't I am super glad for you because the little guys are notorious for bad mouths.:smile:


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## meggels (May 30, 2010)

That's what I hear. Frenchies don't particularly have the best teeth (hell, he could use some doggie braces!) but they are nice and white!


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## Gracelikerain (Jan 4, 2012)

I have to say that I was so excited to see two whole pages of posts since my last post and then was disheartened and irritated to see that 90% of it was a knowledge contest between members. I know that people get fired up on raw vs. kibble but please do not turn my thread into a debate about that. I am sure this forum has a form of private messaging where that discussion can take place. 

Questions asked:

Meat in Beard: 
I feed everything frozen because piece of meat are easier to comb out then washing his face with shampoo 3 times a day to remove "juices" (especially from red meat). He also ends up with strings of meat wrapped around one or two teeth so I usually have to go in and wipe out his mouth or brush his teeth. Frozen makes less of a mess but it takes so much longer that it allows for more opportunities to get bits stuck. I am making a really big effort to keep his beard free of stains because he debuts in the conformation ring in less than a month (if I can get to the bottom of the teeth and coat issues). 



Feeding Ground: I feed a lot of ground meat because it tends to be a lot more economical. Outside of Blue Ridge I only feed organic and grass fed beef, pork, etc. which is exceptionally expensive on a students budget. Blue Ridge allows me to feed a greater variety than I could feed otherwise. Next winter I was planning on hooking up with a deer processor but I doubt grass fed beef will ever be in my budget. 


Runt: I met all of his siblings and when I took him home at 12 weeks he was the third biggest. Now he is ~ 2 lbs smaller than the largest and ~ 1 lb less than the smallest. Maybe he is growing slower because of his diet but I don't want him to end up stunted because I am somehow messing things up.


I always think it helps to attach a face to a story so meet my scruffy man: http://i1222.photobucket.com/albums/dd486/GraceLikeRain1990/21612b.jpg
http://i1222.photobucket.com/albums/dd486/GraceLikeRain1990/Dexter/barn226.jpg


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## Scarlett_O' (May 19, 2011)

I agree with Liz and Natalie, too much ground meats, I would highly suggest whole chunks. I would also suggest portioning out over a few days, or even weeks/month for the 80/10/10....I do all 7 of my raw fed carnivores over a total of 10-15 days, that way they can get larger chunks per meal, at 6 months old he should also be able to have just 2 meals a day, which will also cause his serverings to be larger. 

Oh and I think something a lot forget is that it's not just the bones that cleans teeth, it's also the meat, the ripping and tearing of it cleans them amazingly. 

I would really suggest you get his month fixed(I have a pug/x so totally know bout icky teeth/mouths) and then change up a bit of how you are doing raw and continue on, I would HIGHLY urge you to NOT give up at a mere 3 months. 

(and just as a side note, I am not one who will say "raw doesn't work for every dog." Nope, I will go as far as saying IT WILL work for EVERY SINGLE DOG(and cat) it might just need to be tweaked a little per their health needs!!:wink: But naturally right, balanced, proper and not processed food is what every single dog(and cat) deserves to be fed!!)


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## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

Scarlett_O' said:


> (and just as a side note, I am not one who will say "raw doesn't work for every dog." Nope, I will go as far as saying IT WILL work for EVERY SINGLE DOG(and cat) it might just need to be tweaked a little per their health needs!!:wink: But naturally right, balanced, proper and not processed food is what every single dog(and cat) deserves to be fed!!)


I believe it works for every dog. I don't believe it works for every owner.


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## DaViking (Sep 27, 2011)

Gracelikerain said:


> Runt: I met all of his siblings and when I took him home at 12 weeks he was the third biggest. Now he is ~ 2 lbs smaller than the largest and ~ 1 lb less than the smallest. Maybe he is growing slower because of his diet but I don't want him to end up stunted because I am somehow messing things up.


To defend raw here for a second; That might not be a bad thing. He might be in better physical condition than the rest despite the 1lbs or so difference. It's the same as feeding an ultra low glycemic kibble vs some average grocery store kibble, weight and muscle mass will be very different.


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## Makovach (Jan 24, 2012)

Gracelikerain said:


> I have to say that I was so excited to see two whole pages of posts since my last post and then was disheartened and irritated to see that 90% of it was a knowledge contest between members. I know that people get fired up on raw vs. kibble but please do not turn my thread into a debate about that. I am sure this forum has a form of private messaging where that discussion can take place.


That is kinda how I felt when reading through this.

My question is, Do you want to stick it our with raw? or are you wanting to find a good kibble to feed?

I kinda agree with Liz on the whole teeth thing. I'm glad your getting that checked out. And it sounds more like a breeding thing than a feeding thing. 
I think I'm too new to raw to offer too much advise, so I'll leave it to the pros.
I hope you can get to the bottom of this. Good luck with your showing!


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## Liz (Sep 27, 2010)

My raw fed sheltie litter grew very differently than a similarly bred sheltie litter that was born the same week. Their puppies reached height and weight much more quickly - basically by 6 months their height and weight were done. Mine were still babies. Their coats came in quicker by mine finally came in much more lush. At 6 months old mine were definitely losers in their eyes - now at 9 months mine are carry a lush, gorgeous coat, have never have funky high in the rear of strange heads - they just grew more slowly and more evenly. At 6 months they were lankier but by 9 months they are solid little guys. You have a combo of issues with growth rates, the particular line they are out of different feeding. Conformation dogs are a bit of a pain in try to keep coats clean and sparking - we have some poodle people on here that work very hard to keep their pups sparking. The week I plan to take my sable collie in the ring he will wear a t-shirt to eat so his bib doesn't get stained. His feet i can deal with.  What is the coat issue with your guy? Is it too coarse, too thin? Maybe he is lacking some fat in his diet - this can really affect coat condition. I would also be feeding a conformation dog fish or coconut oil for a supplement. Hope that maybe you can get some ideas from this and can't wait to hear some more good suggestions.


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## DaneMama (Jun 27, 2008)

At this point I'd personally cut out the ground meats even though they're high quality and replace them with whole meats, even if you have to sacrifice "quality" of the meat to do so. Just because those ground meats are organic and free range doesn't make up for the fact that they're ground. Ground meat of any kind isn't ideal....

Any further bickering in this thread will be removed.


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## chowder (Sep 7, 2008)

I'll chime in because I've just purchased 4 rolls of the Blue Ridge ground meat so I've actually experienced the food you are feeding. 

My dogs eat a diet very similar to yours except I grind my own food VERY coarsely (so that it has big chunks of bone in it) and they get boney chicken and cubes of other meat. I just got them 4 rolls of the Blue Ridge Beef and I noticed a big difference in that meat. It was such a fine texture that it was very mushy and left a lot of bloody juice in the bowl. One dog actually would not eat it. Maybe that particular meat is what is causing your problems with the beard and paw issues because the meat itself is so juicy and messy. I had a Lhasa for years and had to deal with the hairy beard, feet, and terrible teeth and I had to avoid all mushy foods like that or it was all in her beard for days and would stink. 

One other thing is that the carrots and apples you feed have a high sugar content and that will tend to cause more tarter to form on the teeth. I would eliminate them and only feed treats from a non-carbohydrate source to help prevent tarter. Stick to lamb lung or dried liver type items.


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## RCTRIPLEFRESH5 (Feb 11, 2010)

muscle weighs more than fat.


DaViking said:


> To defend raw here for a second; That might not be a bad thing. He might be in better physical condition than the rest despite the 1lbs or so difference. It's the same as feeding an ultra low glycemic kibble vs some average grocery store kibble, weight and muscle mass will be very different.


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## Liz (Sep 27, 2010)

For some reason my guys make a mess out of ground and stay relatively clean on chucks - except organ, sometime they make a mess of that. :smile:


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## Scarlett_O' (May 19, 2011)

xellil said:


> I believe it works for every dog. I don't believe it works for every owner.


Exactly. 



And I will echo what Liz said as far as growth. My Rhett and Keeva have never gone thru the weird butt high, or wonky faced phases, they both are growing amazingly evenly, and have looked great, far more like little adults then like actual puppies for their whole time I've had them on raw(Rhett now 13 months raw fed since 15 weeks and Keeva now almost 5 months raw fed since 9.5 weeks.)

In fact, I can do one better. My parents have 2 French Bulldogs, Hubbers is now 4 and was kibble fed until 3.5 years of age, Jazzmyn is 9.5 months old and raw fed since 8 weeks. Now Hub was raised on grain free, high quality food.....but the difference between these two dogs of the same breed and build(both sets of parents are built the same way) is AMAZING!! Jazzy is, and has been since she was about 10 weeks old, evenly growing, always healthy(vet has NOTHING but great things to say about her when he sees her and tells my Mum "Well I guess this raw thing can work for little dogs!") Hub, at this age was the most awkward looking, funny little moster ever...never really cared for his food, never looked TOTALLY happy and always wanted that something more......


I could go on and on about my babies or my baby sister and brother, but I won't....I will just say, once again, I strongly urge you to stick with it, ditch the ground foods, get his teeth fixed and stick with it for a while longer!:thumb:


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## Scarlett_O' (May 19, 2011)

Liz said:


> For some reason my guys make a mess out of ground and stay relatively clean on chucks - except organ, sometime they make a mess of that. :smile:


Oh mine look like I let them kill their own food when they have gotten ground a few times!!!LOL
Ugh, the sardine grind in fine kitty fur was NOT fun!!LOL


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## DaViking (Sep 27, 2011)

RCTRIPLEFRESH5 said:


> muscle weighs more than fat.


Muscle mass is actively built, fat is passively deposited. There is a big difference in how it's built and how much can be built/deposited per individual dog. That's my last word on the subject since it is slightly off topic.


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## Scarlett_O' (May 19, 2011)

DaViking said:


> Muscle mass is actively built, fat is passively deposited. There is a big difference in how it's built and how much can be built/deposited per individual dog. That's my last word on the subject since it is slightly off topic.


I totally agree with what you are saying. 

Brody's sister LOOKS like she is bigger then him(and does out weigh him if you figure weight per their 1-2" height difference), but that is because he is lean with very little fat, and well....she isn't!!:tongue:
Even when we have seen her and they weigh the same, he still looks "skinny" next to her because her........bulk is put on differently then his muscel.


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## DaneMama (Jun 27, 2008)

A pound of muscle doesn't weigh more than a pound of fat....a pound of muscle is more DENSE than a pound of fat. Thusly the statement that muscle weighs more than fat is inaccurate.


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## Maritan (Nov 11, 2011)

DaneMama said:


> A pound of muscle doesn't weigh more than a pound of fat....a pound of muscle is more DENSE than a pound of fat. Thusly the statement that muscle weighs more than fat is inaccurate.


Not to throw fuel on the fire, but that's a scientific smackdown! eace:


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## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

Volume-wise, muscle weighs more. It's impossible for a pound of muscle to weigh a different than a pound of fat. But in this case I know what RC means. If you stuff a gallon jug with a muscle and another jug with fat, they will look the same but the muscle will be heavier.

Likewise, a pound of fish is going to be a larger amount than a pound of beef heart. It's not as dense.

That's why people who exercise find themselves weighing the same but looking better. It's the same with dogs.


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

RCTRIPLEFRESH5 said:


> muscle weighs more than fat.


muscle does not weigh more than fat. muscle is more compact than fat and takes up less room.

let's help this lady and stop digressing.


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## Liz (Sep 27, 2010)

Would it be possible for you to post a picture of your pup? How old is he again? I thought about 6 months but might be wrong.


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## bridget246 (Oct 26, 2011)

xellil said:


> Volume-wise, muscle weighs more. It's impossible for a pound of muscle to weigh a different than a pound of fat. But in this case I know what RC means. If you stuff a gallon jug with a muscle and another jug with fat, they will look the same but the muscle will be heavier.
> 
> Likewise, a pound of fish is going to be a larger amount than a pound of beef heart. It's not as dense.
> 
> That's why people who exercise find themselves weighing the same but looking better. It's the same with dogs.


Reminds me of the age old joke which one weights more. A ton of bricks or a ton of feathers. It amazes me how many people get that wrong.

Back on topic. I spoke to vet who fed raw. Never thought I'd meet one of those. He told me about a place that sold cheap good meat in a tube. In a tube, I asked? Yea, it's ground up and they get everything they need real easy, he told me. I informed him he was cutting out a lot of the benefits of the raw diet by feeding ground meat and he might look into doing it correctly before he recommends it to others. He is a vet so people take his advice seriously so I would hope he was giving out the right advice for success.

Never have feed ground up meat before I don't have any experience with it. I'm happy others are here to help out the op. Yea, it takes more time to feed whole meat. No, you can't always feed the best quality. But I think you might get a much better result by doing so.


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

Liz said:


> Would it be possible for you to post a picture of your pup? How old is he again? I thought about 6 months but might be wrong.


the pup is six months old and there are pics of him...post number 26.


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

to the OP....i am so sorry your experience with raw has not gone well...

there are a few things you can do...one of which is to take care of his teeth...get that squared away..

i can see from that adorable face that he's going to get ground products all up in that fur.....he really is so cute, did i say that?

so i can also see that it's a pain to have to wash him every time he eats...

maybe once a day feeding will help alleviate that.

if you go to solid rather than ground, pork ribs and chicken and goat and lamb and beef heart and whole foods rather than ground, i think he may still have to have his face washed...i wash my pug's face..he's just that enthusiastic...

but you only have to do it once..

raw fed dogs do grow at a more evenly keeled pace than other styles of feeding, so if you're worried about that, please don't be.

i think you might just need to adjust some feeding and everything will be okay.

that said, if you think he will do better on kibble, we have plenty of people in the dry food section...that can steer you.

in the raw section, we've all fed kibble, well, most of us have and we think we have found a better way.

it doesn't take much for either side to defend what they think is the way and the light.

i hope you stay on raw...i think, in the end, you and the dog will be happier and more satisfied...and, certainly i think your dog will be healthier....

what i spend on food i save in vet bills....and no more dentals...

i do know of a lady who has a schnauzer and feeds raw. she uses pony tail things on his beard and puts a knit cap on his head to keep as much food off of him...you can also put on booties when he eats....

whatever you do, i know you only want the best for your dog.


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## Liz (Sep 27, 2010)

Thanks Re, I knew I missed something. I think he is lovely. I also had a friend who has been breeding schnauzers and is a natural rearing breeder look at him and she really can't see the bad coat. He has a good coat for his age and that he is most likely to mature more slowly than his siblings. She can't speak for structure but said he was a nice looking pup. I think he still just looks like a puppy but that will change with time - for my dogs it means we don't show for real points as puppies we take them in the ring for real as adults. I don't envy you keeping that beard clean and I will feel around and see how other raw feeders deal with facial hair like his. I hope someone with a westie or schnauzer will post and give some suggestions. I think he is a nice looking pup. He looks well put together not leggy or too lean.


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## bridget246 (Oct 26, 2011)

It is hard to feed a diet different from everyone else when your pup isn't doing well. I went through that with Bridget. Now it's "wow, your dog is so pretty". I use to get that before fed raw. Now I get it again after she adjusted to it. When we hit a rough spot her coat was ugly, breath stunk, I thought I was going to lose my dog. I'm happy I stuck with it. Liz has great advice and so does Magicre and Danamama. They helped me out a lot.


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## RCTRIPLEFRESH5 (Feb 11, 2010)

i never said apound of muscle weighs more than a pound of fat..I said muscle weighs more than fat which is does. It requires much less muscle to weigh a pound than it does for fat.


DaneMama said:


> A pound of muscle doesn't weigh more than a pound of fat....a pound of muscle is more DENSE than a pound of fat. Thusly the statement that muscle weighs more than fat is inaccurate.


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## wolfsnaps88 (Jan 2, 2012)

You have a lot going on. First, you have a growing puppy. This is your first raw fed puppy so you haven't seen one grow up on raw. THEN you have retained teeth. You can not blame the diet for this. I have had two mini schnauzers and they both had retained teeth on kibble. I don't know if its the breed or just that a certain percentage of puppies have retained teeth. THEN you have to deal with a beard (a cute one, I love dogs with beards!) to clean. When my dog gets too dirty or I get tired of dealing with it, I shave it off. You don't have this as an option. 

When transitioning to raw, there may be an 'ugly' phase. I hear this a lot. It is common. Not to mention your dog is still growing. If you decide to stay on raw (and I don't think anyone here would make you feel bad if you didn't. At least they SHOULDN'T make you feel bad!) you have to give it some more time. I would suggest as others have, of cutting out ground meats...at least for now. Feed them sparingly. I think (as Danemama mentioned) that giving them whole food is better than premium ground. You will have less mess if you feed whole pieces of chicken, beef, pork, etc. as opposed to the already messy ground. More bone in meals will help with tooth cleaning. Of course, you want to have him vetted for his teeth first. Once his teeth are ok, start doing bone in meals. Liz made a great point of tying his beard up and maybe putting a bib or shirt on him if he is that much of a piggy. Usually, if I do clean up my bearded one (although his beard is not nearly as magnificant as your pups) I just use a warm wash cloth. 

We want you to stay on raw because we believe that in the long run, your dog will thrive and sparkle on it. I would love to hear how a raw fed show dog wins the championship! I am sick of hearing about Pro Plan and Eukanuba etc. 

If it is too much to handle or you really think he would be better on kibble, then you need to decide which kibble. There are quite a few great ones to try and we can help with that too. 

When do you start showing him?


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## Dude and Bucks Mamma (May 14, 2011)

RCTRIPLEFRESH5 said:


> i never said apound of muscle weighs more than a pound of fat..I said muscle weighs more than fat which is does. It requires much less muscle to weigh a pound than it does for fat.


Seriously... give it a rest. We are trying to help this dog owner not determine what is more dense.


I am with the others. The ground needs to go. My pup tends to wallow in it. He lays in whatever he is eating on occasion and the few times we fed ground he tried to roll around in it. I don't know why. 

Anyhow, while I don't have long hair to deal with, I do have long ears. Buck's ears get into whatever he is eating. When he id done eating an RMB (it takes him a couple of hours) he has bloody legs, a bloody muzzle, and he has little meat chunks on his ears. We keep baby wipes by the back door and clean him up before anything dries. It's a pain but it is SO worth it!

I don't see much wrong with him either. He looks good to me. My bluetick pup was supposedly supposed to be at his full height by 9 months but he will be one year old tomorrow and is still growing at a steady rate. Raw fed pups just grow differently. My pup is (hopefully) going to make HIS debut in the conformation ring either in April or June. At 6 months he just wasn't ready. I think that, even though you will likely have to wait longer to show your pup, the end result will be a stunning pup.


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## Gracelikerain (Jan 4, 2012)

Hey everyone

Thank you so much for your replies. 

It sounds like a lot of my problems might stem from feeding ground meat. Right now I feed ground meat because:

Biggest reason: I am a broke college student and I can buy Blue Ridge ground for $1.00-$1.25/lb and in my area I cannot find beef, tripe, pork, venison, etc. for less than $3/lb

Second Biggest Reason: I am a vegetarian because I don't agree with commercial farming practices so I have a hard time stomaching the idea of buying cheaper meat that came from animals who were put through situations I don't agree with.

I know something has to give but even if I compromise my morals and buy meat from questionable sources it doesn't stop it from being 2-4x what I currently pay. It would be different if I had a full-time job but the best I can do is a couple of part-time jobs to cover all of my expenses for my dog, cat, and horse. 

Thoughts?

Also. When I mentioned that his coat was cruddy I was referring to his lack of shine. It just looks lifeless. I was losing lighting and I forgot my real camera but I snapped some quick pictures with my iphone to show what his coat currently looks like:
http://i1222.photobucket.com/albums/dd486/GraceLikeRain1990/Dexter/DEXTER.jpg
http://i1222.photobucket.com/albums/dd486/GraceLikeRain1990/Dexter/DEXTER2.jpg


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## Dude and Bucks Mamma (May 14, 2011)

You're right. Something IS going to have to give. I hate commercial farming as well but if it means that my dogs get a better diet then... Well, I am going to have to compromise. I have found the best deals from my local farmers. They have parts they won't use and don't want to waste or leftover meat from previous years just sitting in the freezer, etc. On Craigslist, many members here have been able to get tons of free meat from farmers and hunters alike. During the hunting seasons, hunters clean out the meat from last year and most would rather go through the trouble of communicating with someone and meeting up to give it to them than see it go to waste. Look for any other local raw feeders. They may know of different sources. 

Having the money is tough. I know. My husband is in the Navy. We live on a military salary with a 65 lb smooth collie and a 61 lb bluetick pup who will mature to about 80 lbs. We have other bills to pay as well. We go without a lot. With the way we eat, sometimes I feel like I am still in college. I know how rough it can be. Just don't stop looking for sources. Even if you feel like you have looked everywhere, KEEP LOOKING. We were here for a year before we found a great butcher in our own town that is excellent for raw feeders. Turkey necks for less than 50 cents per pound, beef heart for just a few cents over $1/lb, chicken backs for 40 something cents per pound, etc. We had no idea it was here. 

As far as his coat goes I would just give it more time. A lot of people here use coconut oil and salmon oil and that seems to help the coat quite a bit. 

Maybe, for the next week, you could come here after you feed him and tell us exactly what you fed. Do that for a week so we can see what his diet looks like. Or just write it down and post it all at once next week. Tell us EXACTLY what and EXACTLY how much and maybe we can help you tweak his diet further.


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## Scarlett_O' (May 19, 2011)

With his coat, you have to remember....he is 6 months old, so he is loosing his puppy fur and going into his adult, it is coming into spring time, so winter coats are starting to leave and spring/summer coats are coming in, and he is still going thru the transition phase of getting onto raw, meaning he isn't yet seeing the full amazing effects. 

And as far as ground meat, and all of that....look around(like on Craigslist) for local farmers, see of you have any local raw co-ops that source from local/small farmers. I personally would rather only feed 2-3 proteins then have to feed a majority of ground meats.

And I still think he looks really good....considering that it is semi spring, he is still very much so a puppy, and has only been on raw for a few months, he looks really good!:smile:


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## DaneMama (Jun 27, 2008)

Can you locate private butchers and contact them? It helps to physically go in and talk to them. Talk to them about ordering in bulk from them? See what they have to offer? Look on CRAIGSLIST for local farmers and see what they have to offer.

Feeding these ground meats isn't the end of the world...just feed them less. Once a week is what I say but maybe just cut back to 2-3 times per week instead of how much you've been doing. 

Well....I do know that if you go back to kibble your morals to support "quality" farming won't happen. Even the highest quality of kibbles don't use the ingredients you count as ideal in your book. So if morals are important keep this in mind.


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## Unosmom (May 3, 2009)

You can always do 1/2 raw and 1/2 kibble. I recently had to start feeding 1/2 kibble again (rotating between various acana flavors) due to financial reasons and honestly, other then pooping more, I havent noticed any major changes. His coat seems to be better right now because he's on a fish formula which have higher omega 3 content and before he was mostly eating venision as a red meat source and was coat was a bit dry to the touch. I'm a fan of champion since they have higher standards of how they source their meat (free-range, cage free and wild caught), so it makes me feel better and my dog has always done really well on their foods. 

Nobody is going to point fingers at your for wanting to do whats best for your dog, its a process of trial and error and ultimately it will be your choice to make.


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## Dude and Bucks Mamma (May 14, 2011)

DaneMama has a point. With raw feeding you are able to decide where your dog's meat comes from but with kibble you can't be sure. 

And Abi (Scarlett) does too. My smooth collie, who normally looks fabulous, looks like a moulting seal. He is patchy and gross looking because he is blowing his coat. In a few weeks though, his new coat will be shiny and luxurious. It's a bad time of year to have a changeling puppy. I think that, once this shedding season comes to an end, he has been on raw for a few months more, and he finally gets his big boy coat, he will look MUCH better. He still looks pretty good to me now.


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

in all truth, if that's what you can afford, then that is what you can afford...

if you feed once a day, then you can wash once a day.

my dogs looked terrible.....for a while there....and then they were gorgeous...

since you're feeding frozen, that should help.....

i get the broke thing....and if you feel you have to go back to kibble...then, perhaps the half and half would work, if for no other reason than to keep his teeth clean....

pork ribs are not usually expensive and often have sales....i know my grocery store has sales and they have these days when they mark down...

so if you feed ground....sometimes you can give a treat of some marked down food...even if it is commercially handled....your dog will benefit.

there are times that my grocery store sells certain brands and what i do, is go home and look them up to see if they are CAFO or otherwise substandard and inhumane...

and when i find out that the worst they do....is feed grain rather than allow them to forage, i'm okay with that.....since they let them roan and don't force feed....if that makes sense.

but we do have our lines in the sand; and in the end, it's what allows you to sleep at night.


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## Liz (Sep 27, 2010)

If he needs a shinier coat up his fat intake a bit and add fish or coconut oil. An ad on craigslust for meat would be good. Put a flyer up about taking old or freezer burned meat at a feed store. You will be saving it from a landfill.


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## Chocx2 (Nov 16, 2009)

My newest girl to my bunch started on raw, and she also had some teeth that didn't come out as quick as I thought they should, but they eventually fell out. My friend who is a vet told me not to worry. and as for not getting muscle I think they grow at the right rate on raw. My girl is still under 2 and just starting to look buff, I train her almost everyday. All my other dogs are awesome buff. Maybe you need to up the protein pork hearts are good for that.


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## Gracelikerain (Jan 4, 2012)

A huge thanks to everyone who took the time to give advice and present me with various options. To be honest, I hate feeding raw. I resent portioning meat, I gag every time I hand him an RMB, and I wish I could go back to kibble. That being said, I do believe that RAW is the best option for him which is why I was disheartened when I started hitting some bumps. Ultimately, I would rather stick it out and try to make this work then go back to kibble which comes from unknown sources. Even though I have read so many threads about people going through rough patches, it is definitely harder when it's my little guy. I am really hoping that pulling those last teeth will make a huge difference in his ability to properly tackle bones and thus reduce tartar. 

The ideas about contacting a farm, private butcher, etc. are great ones and I will poke around and see what I can come up with. I live in a mid-sized city and in the past I have struggled to locate a real butcher (most of them just sell previously portioned cuts of meat) but if I cast my net wider I might come up with something in a neighboring town. I also have another local farmers market opening back up in a few months and if I recall correctly, there were 2-3 meat vendors. Perhaps I can work something out with them as well. 


For now I guess I will keep him on the ground for venison and tripe since I definitely cannot find that in chunk but try to find whole meat sources for his beef and pork. A huge thanks to whoever mentioned researching the individual companies prior to purchasing meat. That is a great way to weed out the truly awful practices and locate the half way decent mass producers. 

I am very active on an equine-based forum and I am so thankful that a member steered me in your direction when she found out I was feeding raw. Over there, we might have 10-15 people total who feed raw so it is so nice to have access to a forum where feeding raw is the norm. 

Thanks again, 

GLR


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## DaViking (Sep 27, 2011)

@Gracelikerain; You should listen to the advice you have gotten from the raw feeders here and see if you can work their suggestions into your particular situation. There is no question that raw done correct can fuel a future conformation winner. If all that fails there are US and EUR certified GMO free and organinc (including the meats) dry alternatives out there where all ingredients are fully traceable. I won't elaborate on it here since it's the wrong section to do so.

Best of luck.


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## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

Gracelikerain said:


> To be honest, I hate feeding raw. I resent portioning meat, I gag every time I hand him an RMB, and I wish I could go back to kibble.


Which is exactly why I suggested you go back to dry food from the very first. Your disgust with raw is obvious. 

I hope whatever you do works out.


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## Scarlett_O' (May 19, 2011)

> A huge thanks to everyone who took the time to give advice and present me with various options. To be honest, I hate feeding raw. I resent portioning meat, I gag every time I hand him an RMB, and I wish I could go back to kibble. That being said, I do believe that RAW is the best option for him which is why I was disheartened when I started hitting some bumps. Ultimately, I would rather stick it out and try to make this work then go back to kibble which comes from unknown sources. Even though I have read so many threads about people going through rough patches, it is definitely harder when it's my little guy. I am really hoping that pulling those last teeth will make a huge difference in his ability to properly tackle bones and thus reduce tartar.
> 
> The ideas about contacting a farm, private butcher, etc. are great ones and I will poke around and see what I can come up with. I live in a mid-sized city and in the past I have struggled to locate a real butcher (most of them just sell previously portioned cuts of meat) but if I cast my net wider I might come up with something in a neighboring town. I also have another local farmers market opening back up in a few months and if I recall correctly, there were 2-3 meat vendors. Perhaps I can work something out with them as well.
> 
> ...


Good luck, I really hope it works out for you!!

Where abouts are you? You never know thy there isn't a member close or semi close to you!:wink: (sorry if I missed this!:tongue

Which horse forum are you on and who are you?? Lol
I'm on a few different ones, and generally...when ever the topic comes up...will gladly ramble on and on about raw!!:lol: Haha. So you never know that you haven't seen my ramblings before!!Lol


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

Gracelikerain said:


> A huge thanks to everyone who took the time to give advice and present me with various options. To be honest, I hate feeding raw. I resent portioning meat, I gag every time I hand him an RMB, and I wish I could go back to kibble. That being said, I do believe that RAW is the best option for him which is why I was disheartened when I started hitting some bumps. Ultimately, I would rather stick it out and try to make this work then go back to kibble which comes from unknown sources. Even though I have read so many threads about people going through rough patches, it is definitely harder when it's my little guy. I am really hoping that pulling those last teeth will make a huge difference in his ability to properly tackle bones and thus reduce tartar.
> 
> The ideas about contacting a farm, private butcher, etc. are great ones and I will poke around and see what I can come up with. I live in a mid-sized city and in the past I have struggled to locate a real butcher (most of them just sell previously portioned cuts of meat) but if I cast my net wider I might come up with something in a neighboring town. I also have another local farmers market opening back up in a few months and if I recall correctly, there were 2-3 meat vendors. Perhaps I can work something out with them as well.
> 
> ...


if you hate feeding raw and i think that is more telling than anything else, then kibble might be your best bet.....we have many vegetarians on this board and others and it took a true period of adapting for them to get past the fact that they don't eat meat....

but, as i said before, you have to do what allows you to sleep at night.

if you are looking for a decent kibble...and i hope you are...then head on up to the dry food/canned section...and ask for one...there are many who have kibbles suitable.

and, every once in a while, give him a beef rib to clean his teeth....

good luck to you.


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## Sprocket (Oct 4, 2011)

DaViking said:


> To defend raw here for a second; That might not be a bad thing. He might be in better physical condition than the rest despite the 1lbs or so difference. It's the same as feeding an ultra low glycemic kibble vs some average grocery store kibble, weight and muscle mass will be very different.


This is what I was thinking as well. I recall reading that raw fed dogs grow at a more normal rate instead of in fast bursts. It's easier on their joints to grow slowly.


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## bridget246 (Oct 26, 2011)

Sprocket said:


> This is what I was thinking as well. I recall reading that raw fed dogs grow at a more normal rate instead of in fast bursts. It's easier on their joints to grow slowly.


This is probably why Bridget is still growing. Everyone told me she should have stopped at around 10 months. Vets, trainers and other GSD owners said she should stop. I swear she is right in the middle of another growth spurt.


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## Gracelikerain (Jan 4, 2012)

Scarlett_O' said:


> Good luck, I really hope it works out for you!!
> 
> Where abouts are you? You never know thy there isn't a member close or semi close to you!:wink: (sorry if I missed this!:tongue
> 
> ...


Well hey! Always nice to see a fellow horse person. I'm on Chronicle under the same name (those screaming troll are welcome to read my posts on that forum defending raw).

I split my time between atlanta and athens, ga depending on the time of year.


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## DaneMama (Jun 27, 2008)

No more shenanigans people. I will delete it and I don't like doing that because I'm a busy lady.


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## Donna Little (May 31, 2011)

I live just south of Atl and I don't know if you have any Little Giant stores near you but they have pork on sale all the time. I got 6 or 7 shoulders there the other day for 1.19 a lb and I've started getting beef heart from a place south of me for pretty good prices too. It takes a little looking sometimes but I've managed to find pretty good deals on everything. Walmart also sells chicken quarters for .59 per lb in 10 lb bags. They sell 2 different brands and one is local and isn't loaded with sodium so look on the bag to see which is which. Also don't know if you've been to the Dekalb Farmers Market but they have organic meats and if you buy by the box you can get a better price. They're a little hard to communicate sometimes with but it's worth it. Good luck!


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## Gracelikerain (Jan 4, 2012)

Donna Little said:


> I live just south of Atl and I don't know if you have any Little Giant stores near you but they have pork on sale all the time. I got 6 or 7 shoulders there the other day for 1.19 a lb and I've started getting beef heart from a place south of me for pretty good prices too. It takes a little looking sometimes but I've managed to find pretty good deals on everything. Walmart also sells chicken quarters for .59 per lb in 10 lb bags. They sell 2 different brands and one is local and isn't loaded with sodium so look on the bag to see which is which. Also don't know if you've been to the Dekalb Farmers Market but they have organic meats and if you buy by the box you can get a better price. They're a little hard to communicate sometimes with but it's worth it. Good luck!


Unfortunately it appears that there are only 3 little giant stores but I can try out the Decatur one next time I am in the area. I am also going to run by walmart and see if anything looks reasonable. 

I use Dekalb for all of my chicken but the beef and pork tends to be fairly expensive ($4.29/lb for beef hearts last time I was there!!!). I found a handful of beef producers within a 40 mile radius so I am going to reach out to them and see if there is any way I can score heart, trachea, etc.


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## Dude and Bucks Mamma (May 14, 2011)

Gracelikerain said:


> Unfortunately it appears that there are only 3 little giant stores but I can try out the Decatur one next time I am in the area. I am also going to run by walmart and see if anything looks reasonable.
> 
> I use Dekalb for all of my chicken but the beef and pork tends to be fairly expensive ($4.29/lb for beef hearts last time I was there!!!). I found a handful of beef producers within a 40 mile radius so I am going to reach out to them and see if there is any way I can score heart, trachea, etc.


I know you said you are in school so I don't know if you have room for an extra freezer but you have a dog so you likely don't live in a dorm. Hahaha. 

If you could find a freezer on Craigslist or freecycle or one of the similar sites you could order in bulk. It would cost you a bigger chunk of money at one time and you would have to spend a few hours sorting and freezing meat but you could do it much less often. If you were able to order enough meat to last you a month you would be paying less in the long run and you would only have to sort and portion meat once a month. Once it's sorted, you would have an entire month of just pulling it out of the freezer and handing it to your dog. In between orders you could just put little bits of money away and save up for your bulk orders instead of spending money on meat multiple times a month.

Definitely look for other raw feeders in your area. Abi, Liz, Robin, and I all live in the same area and, although I have never met Liz or Robin, I have meat in my freezer from them that I got through Abi who I hang out with all the time. Although I have never been able to take them up on their offers (lack of freezer space) they have ever so kindly messaged me to let me know they are going to a certain meat supplier and would be happy to pick up meat for me or have meat their dogs don't like and they don't want to see go to waste as well as being part of the transport that gets my bulk orders from our co-op to a place that I can actually pick it up from. I didn't know them before I started feeding raw.


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