# Vet wants the dog on Evil Kibble



## MrTroyHouse (Jun 4, 2011)

Our great dane was having some incontinence issues so we took her in and had her urine tested. The results came back that she had Struvite, which our vet explained to us as Magnesium Ammonium Phosphate crystals in her bladder. He said this was caused by her ph level being too alkaline (at 7.5) and she needed to get more acidic levels. He wants it down to 6-6.5. Of course, this means putting her on the dreaded Science Diet... specifically Prescription Diet c/d for urinary tract health. 

Our question is, is there anything we can do to get her ph more balanced without taking her off of her PMR diet? We love our vet, but he isn't knowledgeable when it comes to raw. He isn't against it, he just doesn't know about it. Should we try to find a vet that is more pro-raw and get a second opinion? The dog has always had a sensitive stomach and we don't want to have to deal with the runs. Also, the ingredient list on the dog food bag makes me feel a little sick when i read it. I just can't feed her that crap after all the research I've done on a raw diet. Please Help!


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## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

i feel your pain. Is it that white stuff like dried up glue that will kill them if they eat it too long?

there is a recent thread about struvites, have you seen it?


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## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

Here it is:
http://dogfoodchat.com/forum/raw-feeding/11127-hello-another-raw-newbie-here.html


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## MrTroyHouse (Jun 4, 2011)

No, it's just kibble, but I still don't want to feed it to her. We bought the small bag, but we aren't opening it yet. We pretty much just bought it to get out of the office without a fight.


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## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

MrTroyHouse said:


> No, it's just kibble, but I still don't want to feed it to her. We bought the small bag, but we aren't opening it yet. We pretty much just bought it to get out of the office without a fight.


Oh my goodness I've done that. i bought a 20 pound sack of Science Diet for a 10 pound dog because "that's all we have in stock."

I ended up feeding it to the squirrels.


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## Noodlesmadison (Sep 18, 2011)

Solid Gold Berry Balance or cranberry pills
We had bladder stones over here and the science diet made her very ill and itchy.


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## Noodlesmadison (Sep 18, 2011)

The prescription diet DRY actually helps to cause stones and infections because it causes dehydration (or something) and wont flush the bladder enough-urine(vet told me this).
On websites you will see that the dry is the worst thing you could buy if you do decide to do prescription bladder diet.

edited to add: We fed her prescription wet. One time we fed her a bowl of dry - next day she peed blood. Antibiotics
Next month gave her another bowl of dry - peed blood. Repeat a million times before I caught on

Dry is baaad news.


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## Kat (Jul 12, 2011)

Eugh Science Diet, my vet always tries to push that stuff on me for my cats because they both have suffered with struvite crystals in the past. The things I have learned about struvites thus far is keep the bladder flushed by adding lots of moisture to the diet, and the proper urine pH ranging betwen 6-6.5, some people talk about mineral concentration too, but different vets say different things. And also some people suggest to stay away from any fish. One thing I did in the past to acidify the urine is cranberry pills, I got the capsules and broke them over the canned food. The capsules are better I think than the actual pills because the pills have extra ingredients that make it taste bitter while the capsule powder doesnt really have a taste imo. To stick with PMR you can always try sprinkling a capsule onto each meal to help acidify the urine. However, I dont know what the actual dose would be, Iv been told you cant really overdose on cranberry pills, but maybe someone on this forum would know the dosage further. I would definitley return the science diet though. If you need to put him on a vet diet to dissolve the crystals I would go for the Royal Canin Urinary S/O cans, they are designed to dissolve struvite crystals, and even though their ingredients arent amazing either, I would choose them over science diet any day. And RC has guaranteed pallability (sp?)


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## Noodlesmadison (Sep 18, 2011)

plus one of the ingredient is PINE TREE (sawdust). How nasty is that? It's like me going out to the park and eating the bark of a tree.


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## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

What i have heard (not sure if this is true) is that cranberry will help keep the crystals from forming, but won't help dissolve them after they exist.


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## Kat (Jul 12, 2011)

Whatttt, science diet has pine tree in their food, I never knew that, I always stop reading after all the by-products. And your vet only prescribed the dry food? Thats silly, that wont do anything to help dissolve the crystals, they need lots of water to help flush and dissolve the crystals.


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## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

Kat said:


> Whatttt, science diet has pine tree in their food, I never knew that, I always stop reading after all the by-products. And your vet only prescribed the dry food? Thats silly, that wont to anything to help dissolve the crystals, they need lots of water to help flush and dissolve the crystals.


That's what i was thinking - the dog I had with bladder stones was on the canned stuff = she weighed 8 pounds and i put at least 2 cups of water in each time i fed her. That poor dog peed constantly. But it was clear!


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## Noodlesmadison (Sep 18, 2011)

Kat said:


> Whatttt, science diet has pine tree in their food, I never knew that, I always stop reading after all the by-products. And your vet only prescribed the dry food? Thats silly, that wont do anything to help dissolve the crystals, they need lots of water to help flush and dissolve the crystals.


There is pine tree in the royal canin too. We quit all of it for raw and her bladder problems all miraculously stopped. I honestly blame the pet food industry (we all do I'm sure) and my vet for pushing me to use the crappiest food just because she's brainwashed about it. I am CONVINCED my dog suffered for years just because my vet insisted this food would help her.


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## Kat (Jul 12, 2011)

I live in Canada, I think the ingredients for the american and canadian RC differ, I could be wrong, but Iv never seen pine in their ingredients list. Its made in a plant in Guelph, Ontario instead of being shipped from the USA. And I totally agree, my cats have been on the RC urinary s/o and preventive for about a year now, and I am just weaning them off of it now, I am a bit nervous about it cause I always get terrified they are going to get crystals again, my male had a blockage last september which he almost died from. But I have been contacting holistic pet food companies for a few weeks now and found one that has the proper pH levels and ingredients. Eventually, I hope to switch them to pre-made raw, and then to PMR.


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## HayleyMarie (Jul 6, 2011)

I have no idea if this would help at all I would do my own research if it helps with crystals, but Teagan has incontinents I went the whole vet route and finally said screw you, but my herbalist suggested belladonna tables and they have worked wonders.

I go and see the herbalist again and I will ask if the belladonna wil help with crystals


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## Noodlesmadison (Sep 18, 2011)

Kat said:


> I live in Canada, I think the ingredients for the american and canadian RC differ, I could be wrong, but Iv never seen pine in their ingredients list. Its made in a plant in Guelph, Ontario instead of being shipped from the USA. And I totally agree, my cats have been on the RC urinary s/o and preventive for about a year now, and I am just weaning them off of it now, I am a bit nervous about it cause I always get terrified they are going to get crystals again, my male had a blockage last september which he almost died from. But I have been contacting holistic pet food companies for a few weeks now and found one that has the proper pH levels and ingredients. Eventually, I hope to switch them to pre-made raw, and then to PMR.


Like you, I was terrified to take Noodles off the food even though it was making her weird and lethargic and just...not right. And bad gas! 
I thought she'd get a stone within months - it's been 4 official months on raw and her bladder got better! Finally lol! I feel silly for being so scared about the change but now I understand it's just trial and error and raw really did help


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## Kat (Jul 12, 2011)

The Canadian and American royal canin diets are different, on the American site the dry food doesnt even list chicken until like 5 ingredients in.

Noodlesmadison, yeah I was thinking of trying the premade raw from Natures Variety, because Iv heard that cats seem to respond to it quickly and can be switched cold turkey from kibble to it without them hating the taste. Just what has me a bit iffy is that vet diets, I think, are more addictive to cats because they add more things to make it ''taste better'' so the cats keep eating it. I just bought some holistic select cat food cans, and they eat them, but not as eagerly as the vet diet.


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## MrTroyHouse (Jun 4, 2011)

So what I'm getting from this is we need to add lots of water into her diet and maybe something like cranberry capsules to help balance her ph levels. How long should we do this before we get her urine tested again?


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## Noodlesmadison (Sep 18, 2011)

I got her urine tested a month after starting raw


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## Kat (Jul 12, 2011)

It depends how bad the crystals were. It ranges anywhere from 3 weeks to 3 months depending on the severity. My cat who got blocked, it was literally like sand in his bladder, when he got cathaterized, the crystals were at the bottom of the baggy like sand, it took 3 months to clear up. When my other cat had crystals they cleared up in a month. Yes, for sure extra water and cranberry capsules... since you caught it early she should be ok to be tested in a month. And I *think* that the acidity from the cranberry capsules could help to dissolve the crystals, but Im not 100% sure, vets always have different opinions on it too.


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## Ania's Mommy (Feb 8, 2009)

Check this out: http://preymodelraw.com/2010/12/02/when-is-prey-model-raw-not-ideal/

It's a blog post on Jon & Natalie's (jdatwood & DaneMama) PMR website that was researched & contributed by Sara (LuvMyBRT). Good stuff!


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## MrTroyHouse (Jun 4, 2011)

Thank you all so much for all the information! We were so worried about our girl earlier this evening, and we both feel so much better now! I love this forum!


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## cprcheetah (Jul 14, 2010)

Noodlesmadison said:


> Solid Gold Berry Balance or cranberry pills
> We had bladder stones over here and the science diet made her very ill and itchy.


Yes definitely NO NO NO NO NO to the c/d it's the worst of the worst! Zoey has always had alkaline urine. How long has your dog been on raw? Zoey has been eating raw for 16 months and no longer has issues with her urine, she's always had crystals in her urine. I do give Shellie cranberry capsules, but that is because she has a long history of pretty severe bladder infections (hmmmm......none though since switching to raw).


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## cprcheetah (Jul 14, 2010)

MrTroyHouse said:


> So what I'm getting from this is we need to add lots of water into her diet and maybe something like cranberry capsules to help balance her ph levels. How long should we do this before we get her urine tested again?


I would test maybe in 4-6 weeks as it is going to take some time to flush the crystals out of her system. Encourage her to drink lots of water. That will help. PMR will definitely help, it eliminated crystals in my dog who has had them practically her entire life no matter what, yes even on Royal Canin's Urinary SO prescription diet.


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## MrTroyHouse (Jun 4, 2011)

cprcheetah said:


> How long has your dog been on raw? Zoey has been eating raw for 16 months and no longer has issues with her urine, she's always had crystals in her urine. I do give Shellie cranberry capsules, but that is because she has a long history of pretty severe bladder infections (hmmmm......none though since switching to raw).


Heffy has been on raw for about 16 months as well.


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## Kat (Jul 12, 2011)

Yeah, if I were you I would honestly just try to add cranberry capsules to each meal to help acidify her urine, because the acidity may be all that is needed to dissolve the crystals, and if you dont notice an improvement then I would do a vet prescription canned diet, no kibble, for a couple weeks to dissolve them. I dont know if this would work to help increase water intake, its just a thought, but could you dice up her meat and float it in cold water mixed with the cranberry capsule powder? Because it might make her lap up the water to get to the meat, Iv never tried that so I dont know if it would work though.


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## DaViking (Sep 27, 2011)

Noodlesmadison said:


> plus one of the ingredient is PINE TREE (sawdust). How nasty is that? It's like me going out to the park and eating the bark of a tree.


Not that I would recommend it to anyone today but bark bread have existed for ages and was in certain periods a staple in the diet. I don't know the science and reasoning behind adding pine fibers to this particular therapeutic diet but I highly doubt the fibers are harmful in any way.


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## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

one thing I never noticed before I came here - alot of dog food has cellulose, which is also sawdust.


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## Kat (Jul 12, 2011)

Oh my gosh, I never knew cellulose was saw dust!


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## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

Well, I knew it was paper but it just didn't compute when I saw it on a bag of dog food - I figured there was some kind of food cellulose, or something I didn't understand. I never imagined they would put that in dog food.

I learn alot from this place.


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## DaViking (Sep 27, 2011)

If you ever had Vanilla flavored anything, and it wasn't natural vanilla which is rare in the food industry, you've eaten tree, basically. You have eaten lignin, a byproduct of the pulp and paper industry.


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## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

DaViking said:


> If you ever had Vanilla flavored anything, and it wasn't natural vanilla which is rare in the food industry, you've eaten tree, basically. You have eaten lignin, a byproduct of the pulp and paper industry.


So are you saying that makes it ok to put in dog food? Not sure I see the connection.


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## DaViking (Sep 27, 2011)

xellil said:


> So are you saying that makes it ok to put in dog food? Not sure I see the connection.


Nope, but there are a slew of food and food related products originating from trees. Most are for human consumption and not harmful in any way, most would not harm canines either. You rarely see cellulose, pulp and paper byproducts in what I would say is decent dog foods, and you shouldn't. For some reason they've added pine fibers to the therapeutic kibble in question, I don't know their reason. My point is that just because it is a product derived from trees there is no need to go ape**** over it just because it can seem weird and gross to many. I saw other questioned the use of this theraputic food for this condition, that's all fine, have no problem with that view, just saying that don't shoot the added pine, pretty sure it's not it's fault the kibble is not suited (if that is the case) It's fiber, don't hate on the trees :biggrin:


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## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

I don't think it's weird or gross - I think it's a cost saving filler. There's no other reason to include it than to cheap out.


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## DaViking (Sep 27, 2011)

xellil said:


> I don't think it's weird or gross - I think it's a cost saving filler. There's no other reason to include it than to cheap out.


Agree. However, in therapeutic foods there might be various reasons to use it for it's chemical properties or simply as a filler who doesn't alter the properties of the food.


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## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

DaViking said:


> Agree. However, in therapeutic foods there might be various reasons to use it for it's chemical properties or simply as a filler who doesn't alter the properties of the food.


I don't agree with that but assume it's correct. That still doesn't make it ok to charge $40 for a bag of sawdust and corn.


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## Caty M (Aug 13, 2010)

There shouldn't BE fillers in food... period.


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## MrTroyHouse (Jun 4, 2011)

Our dogs eat trees all the time. Our woodpile for our fire pit has to be restocked all the time because the dogs have gotten into it and chewed up some of the branches.


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## CavePaws (Jan 25, 2011)

Lol my dog chews wood all the time...I don't think in any way, shape, or form that it is a beneficial ingredient to any food...especially an everyday staple. yet again just another useless filler used to cut costs and boost profit.


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## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

if someone wants to feed my dog trees and charge me a premium price for it and I actually pay the money to do so, who is the idiot?

And no i'm not calling anyone names - I was the idiot for something like 30 years.


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## Rodeo (Sep 11, 2011)

I've read somewhere parsley was good for urinary problems? I don't know if it would help with the PH though... should have gone to vet school. :redface:


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## DaViking (Sep 27, 2011)

CavePaws said:


> I don't think in any way, shape, or form that it is a beneficial ingredient to any food...especially an everyday staple. yet again just another useless filler used to cut costs and boost profit.


To an everyday staple, I agree absolutely not, and can be harmful in the long run. But as a therapeutic ingredient cellulose (not only from trees) plays a role, among other things, in the management of glucose in dogs. So for specific situations it is an beneficial ingredient. For the dog in question in this thread I don't think it would make any difference, except for bigger stool and less calorie uptake.


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## Caty M (Aug 13, 2010)

Fed a food without carbohydrates like nature intended, dogs don't need glucose management...


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## DaViking (Sep 27, 2011)

Caty M said:


> Fed a food without carbohydrates like nature intended, dogs don't need glucose management...


If it was that simple.


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## cprcheetah (Jul 14, 2010)

CavePaws said:


> Lol my dog chews wood all the time...I don't think in any way, shape, or form that it is a beneficial ingredient to any food...especially an everyday staple. yet again just another useless filler used to cut costs and boost profit.


I have a cat who is addicted to eating/chewing on cardboard boxes, does that mean she needs cardboard in her diet?. Absolutely NOT! Shellie eats foam, rubber, wood, carpet, clothing, paper and anything else she can shred, does that mean she needs it in her diet? NO, she also thinks the cat litter box is a delicacy and should be her #1 item in her diet, is that healthy for her? ABSOLUTELY NOT we just treated a dog with an impaction because it ate the cat poop out of the cat box and it basically 'cemented' in it's stomach...just because a dog will EAT something does NOT mean they need it or that it is good for them.


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## cprcheetah (Jul 14, 2010)

DaViking said:


> If it was that simple.


 What do you mean? IT IS That simple, we have SEVERAL diabetic patients who are on MINIMAL insulin due to a low or no carb diet. My husband is a classic example, he is on minimal meds for his diabetes (1 metformin twice a day) which is NOT a high dose especially for his weight, he is NOT on insulin and the Dr thinks if we keep the dietary changes (low carb, no grains) he will reverse his diabetes.


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## DaViking (Sep 27, 2011)

cprcheetah said:


> What do you mean? IT IS That simple, we have SEVERAL diabetic patients who are on MINIMAL insulin due to a low or no carb diet. My husband is a classic example, he is on minimal meds for his diabetes (1 metformin twice a day) which is NOT a high dose especially for his weight, he is NOT on insulin and the Dr thinks if we keep the dietary changes (low carb, no grains) he will reverse his diabetes.


You just gave two different cases, and there are thousands others, which makes it not that simple. The empty calorie count have to be reduced drastically yes, but that doesn't render therapeutic glucose management useless for man or canine. Changes in the diet is not enough for many.


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## Kat (Jul 12, 2011)

Yeah, Iv heard that too. Aswell as garlic and stinging nettle. I just keep it simple with cranberry lol


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