# Again, I ask for help /cry



## bridget246 (Oct 26, 2011)

Story of how it happened:

Up until this passed Thursday all was fine. We went to the dog park. Someone decided to feed my dog kibble(Iam's) thinking it would do no harm and their dog didn't want it so they thought they'd give it away. Bridget ate it. Where was I? Right around her. I just didn't notice what was happening at first. After I saw what was going on and tried to stop it she ignored me thinking I was worried about my dog getting fat. It's just kibble, your dog is fine she told me. 

A little later my GF is following her around while I was resting. Bridget gets into a pond and starts to drink. My gf couldn't get her out of the puddle so I had to get her out. I did my hardest not to be angry at my girlfriend. Really, I did and kept reminding myself that she paid for the dog. Before we went into the dog park that day I told her she was going to have to do the job of watching Bridget because I couldn't. But sorry, that is unrelated to the problem I currently have.

The issue:

Not sure if it was caused by the puddle or the kibble. But Bridget had nothing but liquid since. I know she has an infection. I sometimes see muscle in the stool. I can't afford the vet until Monday. Currently, she isn't able to hold onto any of the food I give her. She releases it all about 6 to 10 hours later in her stool. I'm not really sure if she is digesting anything from it. 

The solutions I've tried:

I didn't fed her for 12 hours after the event. I noticed wet bowel so I waited for her system to clear. Then I fed her a little pork with chicken. 2 days later it was still wet. So I gave her pumpkin. I swear I saw the pumpkin come out in the same form it went in 6 hours later. 

Next Steps: 

I'm going to take in a stool sample tomorrow. I managed to gather up a little money for that. But that is all I can do for now. 

I understand that this is normally treated with skinless chicken breast and white rice. She seemed like she was use to eating raw so I didn't know if that would mess things up even more.


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## hmbutler (Aug 4, 2011)

I think you've tried most of the options we would try, so the vet is your last option really. I would be more inclined to say it is from the kibble, but that could be me being biased lol. Let's just say, Duke often drinks/accidently swallows the water in lakes, rivers, ponds, puddles etc when he's playing in the water, and rarely gets sick from it. But the one time a friend's boyfriend gave him a handful of kibble as a training treat before I could stop him, he vomited and had runny stool that night. However it did only last one day, so perhaps an infection from dirty water is more likely...

Either way, I think going to the vet is your last resort, short of fasting and then feeding only skinless bone-in chicken again to see if it clears up.


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## Makovach (Jan 24, 2012)

Sorry this happened to your poor girl :/ Some people just don't care what others think of their animals. I know how you feel. I beg for the people I live with not to feed my dogs table food. Its bad enough they get into my uncles constantly full bucket of purina nuggets-o-doom. My dogs are not on raw yet, so they don't get as sick. My dogs drink from ponds/lakes/resivores/creeks, but they are picky about puddles. 

I hope its nothing major. Maybe try to fast her again and feed her heavy bone in chicken meals?


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## CoverTune (Dec 20, 2011)

I'd be worried about dehydration at this point.


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## Makovach (Jan 24, 2012)

CoverTune said:


> I'd be worried about dehydration at this point.


Thats a very good point. 

If she will drink, maybe try to give her some pedialyte too? I wouldn't let it last too long before going to the vet....


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## Kat (Jul 12, 2011)

I second the dehydration. If she is not keeping anything down, and has vomiting or diarrhea, that needs to be looked at by a vet. Would your vet set up an account for you to pay them when you get money? When my cat got sick 2 years ago I couldnt afford the entire bill, but Iv been with my clinic for 5 years and they knew I wouldnt be dishonest, so they let me pay what I could and pay the rest back on my next paycheck.


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## Liz (Sep 27, 2010)

I would probably fast her again and give slippery elm. Then offer homemade chicken broth for next meal, then maybe a quarter to half portion of regular food, bony chicken.


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## bridget246 (Oct 26, 2011)

Makovach said:


> Thats a very good point.
> 
> If she will drink, maybe try to give her some pedialyte too? I wouldn't let it last too long before going to the vet....


I never even heard of pedialyte. I'll give it a try if you guys think it will work. She eats ice so I've been giving her lots of ice. Still feeding even though it is all coming out later on. I figured the raw meat had a lots of water in it anyway. 



Kat said:


> I second the dehydration. If she is not keeping anything down, and has vomiting or diarrhea, that needs to be looked at by a vet. Would your vet set up an account for you to pay them when you get money? When my cat got sick 2 years ago I couldnt afford the entire bill, but Iv been with my clinic for 5 years and they knew I wouldnt be dishonest, so they let me pay what I could and pay the rest back on my next paycheck.


The vets in my area aren't that nice or that great. I'm switching vets, this time for the last time I hope. We have 2 holistic vets in my area and I know one doesn't support the raw diet and recommends this soy based hypo allergenic food. The vet I'm going to on Monday is a little more costly. Claims to have no problems with the raw diet and will even help me with it in making sure Bridget is getting everything she needs as they are also animal nutritionist. It is owned by Ohio State University so their information is kept uptodate. 

However, my problem is now. Monday is a long way away. Not going to have any money until Saturday morning at the soonest and most of our vets here don't do Saturday appointments. Getting the stool tested will helpfully let me know if anything major is going down. If I have to I'll take out a loan and see a vet who isn't as good as the one I'm going to on Monday. But these cost are getting out of hand. I'm almost certain they'll just give me broad spectrum antibiotics. I actually have some of those from vets passed who gave them to Bridget without any real reason to. 

One more question. Should I give her cooked chicken breast or raw? I was breaking things up and feeding them as training treats before. But I'm thinking of maybe making a meals out of them for a few days. It might help her process things faster. Vital-Essentials-Freeze-Dried-Chicken-Patties. I was just worried that she might not get the water she needs through these. Also considering upping the water even more by adding my own homemade chicken broth using nothing but chicken.


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## Liz (Sep 27, 2010)

Definately get some Pedialtye, it is in the infant section just be sure to get the flavorless one and this is really good to rehydrate, the slippery elm helps coat her gut in case she is irritated, and homemade broth is what I would offer after a fast. Then a small portion of raw, skinless bony chicken.


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## Kat (Jul 12, 2011)

With the chicken broth thing, if you decide to get a store bought one, get a low to no sodium broth, and make sure there is no onions in the ingredient list.


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## bridget246 (Oct 26, 2011)

Kat said:


> With the chicken broth thing, if you decide to get a store bought one, get a low to no sodium broth, and make sure there is no onions in the ingredient list.


Nope, I'd just put a piece of chicken into my pressure cooker. I'll probably throw the chicken away and keep the broth. I've never seen store brought broth that didn't have a ton of sodium. Though it might exist.


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

don't feed her water...it just stimulates the intestinal tract....

you've gotten good advice....please listen.

pedialyte
chicken broth
slippery elm.

vet.


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## DaneMama (Jun 27, 2008)

Honestly, from what you've said you've done so far...I can see why she's still having issues. 

First, I would fast 24 hours, not just 12. 

Second, feed ONLY bone in chicken...no pork. Small meals of just bone heavy chicken like backs or quarters stripped of all fat, organ and some muscle meat to increase the bone content. 

Lastly, the pumpkin isn't a good remedy for a raw fed dog. Its a great tool for kibble fed dogs with diarrhea but it doesn't always help raw fed dogs and in some ways, it can cause even more of an issue. 

If I were in your shoes, I'd fast her once again, but for a whole day. Make sure she drinks plenty of fluids...sodium free broth or stock is ideal. Then feed nothing more than very small, bone heavy chicken meals for a week straight or until you see 7 whole days of normal stools. 

Keep us posted on how she does.


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## bridget246 (Oct 26, 2011)

Liz said:


> Definately get some Pedialtye, it is in the infant section just be sure to get the flavorless one and this is really good to rehydrate, the slippery elm helps coat her gut in case she is irritated, and homemade broth is what I would offer after a fast. Then a small portion of raw, skinless bony chicken.


How much Pedialtye and how much slippery elm? Or should I just give both after each bowl? She is currently 40 pounds. Thank you in advance.


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## bridget246 (Oct 26, 2011)

DaneMama said:


> Honestly, from what you've said you've done so far...I can see why she's still having issues.
> 
> First, I would fast 24 hours, not just 12.
> 
> ...


Yea, the pumpkin didn't work at all. Going to use the rest of the pumpkin for pies since I see it is clearly not working. 



magicre said:


> don't feed her water...it just stimulates the intestinal tract....
> 
> you've gotten good advice....please listen.
> 
> ...


I've missed both of those post. 

Sorry, I'm a little confused on how much pedialyte and slippery elm to give.

Edit: Tomorrow I'll give 1 L of pedialyte or until she stops drinking it. I gave her a little tonight. Slippery elm I couldn't even find so that will be tomorrow as well. Thinking it comes in a pill. Chicken broth will just be there for her to drink every hour or two hour, I guess? That is my current plan so if anything is wrong with it please point it out.


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## BeagleCountry (Jan 20, 2012)

Google carecredit vet . You can apply online and will know within a few minutes if the application is approved.


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

bridget246 said:


> Yea, the pumpkin didn't work at all. Going to use the rest of the pumpkin for pies since I see it is clearly not working.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


it does come in capsule form....no on the litre of pedialyte. there are directions on the back of the can....for weight. i don't remember what it is...but you can over dose on electrolytes.....this is medicine not a treat.

chicken broth, also, give in very small amounts.

the idea is to calm the stomach and slow down the movement of the intestines...

*so, a little pedialyte in the chicken broth....a few tablespoons of pedialyte......maybe a 1/4 cup of broth at a time...every four hours....let this dog's system rest.....*

go get slippery elm tomorrow. you'll find it at super supplements....

and if you cannot stop the runs with these things, then get this dog to a vet.


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## Chocx2 (Nov 16, 2009)

do you have any metranitazol, I'm sure I spelling that wrong, its a antibiotic used for intestinal stuff. Usually works in a day or two. I haven't used it in a long time my dogs haven't had any issues. I used it when my dogs would drink cow pond water, lol they would get diarrhea but that was when they were on kibble they don't seem to drink that much water anymore, I mean when they swim in the ponds, maybe because they eat raw?

Hope she gets better what ever you try.


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## Cash&Thumper (Feb 16, 2012)

I would see a vet and get her tested, I know two dogs that got giardia from *most likely* drinking dirty pond water, from the same pond. Depending on how much kibble she ate, being raw fed, its hard to say if it would cause that much digestive upset. My Shiba inu got a hold of a bunch of kibble right after eating a raw meal, and he was absolutely fine.

This sounds like Giardia to me. I know dogs drink out of ponds and rivers, etc all the time..but I believe it can be a major culprit of giardia. Perhaps I'm wrong and someone can confirm or correct this theory? I just know two dogs personally that got very ill and had the waterhose diarrhea for quite some time, couldn't eat food or keep food down, etc. and they both tested positive for giardia, and both had drank water from a slough at a dog park. I'm not sure if other dogs got sick, but perhaps it was just a coincidence.. I'm not sure.

I hope your pup gets better soon


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## MollyWoppy (Mar 19, 2010)

I tend to think its something she's picked up from the water as well. I seriously doubt an otherwise healthy dog would get that sick from eating a bit of kibble, no matter how bad the brand of kibble. Try what the others have suggested and if there isn't any improvement, then the vet is the next stop I'm afraid. 
Mol got sick like this once when she was younger, it was some pond water she drank, diarreah, vomiting, lethargy and dehydrated. I think the vet put her on antibiotics and it cleared up in pretty quick order.
Keep her hydrated to the best of your ability. Good luck, I hope she improves soon.


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## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

I agree on the pond water. The only time in the history of Snorkels she had diarrhea was when she had giardia, and it was really scary explosive stuff. She was almost immediately dehydrated.


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

it's already been stated that the OP can't get the dog to the vet until monday. 

i think, what we're trying to do, is keep the dog hydrated until such time that a vet visit can be arranged.

it's dangerous, because dehydration is a leading cause of death in dogs.....they can go without eating, but not without drinking....

that's why the suggestion to use pedialyte to replace electrolytes....this product single handedly eradicated one of the leading causes of death in infants and now children, which is dehydration secondary to gastroenteritis, no matter what the cause.

chicken broth is not water, which will stimulate the intestinal peristalsis (movement) and will also provide some nutrients whilst giving the intestines a sorely needed rest.

fed in small amounts every three to four hours will hopefully keep this dog from really getting worse....i also suspect giardia.


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## monkeys23 (Dec 8, 2010)

I just want to say that getting into kibble can and will upset a dog who can't tolerate grains to that level.
Scout got into my parent's dog's crap food once and she literally exploded all over my apt. She was so sick from that nasty stuff. I had to literally wash down all the walls and everything even though she was crated in one corner when this incident happened. Hell of a fun thing to come home to.

I took her to a friend's house where she could stay out in a dog run with a giant water tub so that is she had to go more it wouldn't be a big deal. She washed herself off in there too. Meanwhile I scoured the liquid poo off my entire house.

24hrs later I gave her half a chicken and basically went through an abbreviated transition again just to be safe. She did fine. It was 100% the crap kibble that caused the sickness/explosion.

Getting into crap kibble makes Lily sick too, but she's not persnickity about her bathroom habits like Scout. If the stars aren't aligned just right then Scout won't go and I think thats why she held it until she exploded... she's a weirdo. Lily certainly gets the trots from grain inclusive kibble and does not feel well at all too though. I've never had to carefully fast and re-transition her though because 1. She's intolerable if she's fasted (yay rescue dog eating disorder!) and 2. Her gut can handle anything that isn't grain, literally.


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## Cash&Thumper (Feb 16, 2012)

Totally agree Re, hydration is key - but I would highly suggest the OP find a way to get that dog into a vet before Monday, if possible. If its Giardia..well, I'm just concerned for the dog and feel he may need some medical attention as soon as possible. As much as I dislike vets, I wouldn't take my chances with something like Giardia, Parvo, etc with the high risk of dehydration, which like you said, highly dangerous and can cause death. 

But.. if there is no possible way to seek medical attention before Monday, then totally agree with what everyone else has stated about keeping him hydrated with eloctrolytes, etc. and if it were me, I would not be leaving his side until I could get him to a vet. Absolutely would not take a chance, if the condition worsens... I would do emergency vet.. its better to not take any chances. If funds aren't available.. if not already mentioned, some vets will do a payment plan, etc.

Again, Good luck.. keep us posted, and godspeed your dog to good health


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## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

I think he is able to take a stool sample in. At least he'll know if it's a parasite (or not).


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## twoisplenty (Nov 12, 2008)

Great advice has been given. 

I also suspect Giardia  Hope your dog is feeling better very soon.


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## bridget246 (Oct 26, 2011)

magicre said:


> it does come in capsule form....no on the litre of pedialyte. there are directions on the back of the can....for weight. i don't remember what it is...but you can over dose on electrolytes.....this is medicine not a treat.
> 
> chicken broth, also, give in very small amounts.
> 
> ...


I've already given her way too much then. Your assumption that my package of pedialyte told me anything was false. It says 32 to 64oz's a day for infants . Please don't assume I know anything. I love the help I'm getting to help Bridget but without a good direction on how to take the great advice I run the risk of causing more trouble. 

She hasn't had any stool that I could pick up and it is in such small amounts because I haven't been feeding her a lot at time. Should I shovel up the ground and all with it or wipe it up with something and take that in? There hasn't been anything I could grab.


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## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

bridget246 said:


> I've already given her way too much then. Your assumption that my package of pedialyte told me anything was false. It says 32 to 64oz's a day for infants . Please don't assume I know anything. I love the help I'm getting to help Bridget but without a good direction on how to take the great advice I run the risk of causing more trouble.
> 
> She hasn't had any stool that I could pick up and it is in such small amounts because I haven't been feeding her a lot at time. Should I shovel up the ground and all with it or wipe it up with something and take that in? There hasn't been anything I could grab.


you can stick a small rounded object in her rectum and get some out. they don't need much I don't think.

On my bigger dog I've used the handle of a butter knife or spoon. Not the business end, though. That might be an ouch. And I bet the vet techs here can give you a better idea of what to use.

Or, call your vet and ask.


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## BoxerParty (Nov 9, 2011)

xellil said:


> I agree on the pond water. The only time in the history of Snorkels she had diarrhea was when she had giardia, and it was really scary explosive stuff. She was almost immediately dehydrated.



Malcolm also got SUPER explosive diarrhea from drinking puddle water in a marshy part of the park.

The advice here is all excellent - small amounts of chicken broth (I make my own by boiling chicken frames in water so I know there's no salt/onion/spices) with a couple of tablespoons of pedialyte added in will keep her hydrated until she can get to the vet. 

Hope she's on the mend soon!


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## Cash&Thumper (Feb 16, 2012)

bridget246 said:


> I've already given her way too much then. Your assumption that my package of pedialyte told me anything was false. It says 32 to 64oz's a day for infants . Please don't assume I know anything. I love the help I'm getting to help Bridget but without a good direction on how to take the great advice I run the risk of causing more trouble.
> 
> She hasn't had any stool that I could pick up and it is in such small amounts because I haven't been feeding her a lot at time. Should I shovel up the ground and all with it or wipe it up with something and take that in? There hasn't been anything I could grab.



I had to do a stool sample for my Kelpie mix when he was a pup.. a fear of Giardia and symptoms very similar to what your pup is experiencing, and because he wasn't eating.. runny poop.. etc, I grabbed a plastic sandwich bag, a spoon, and I spooned it into the baggie, wrapped in a plastic grocery bag, tied it up , put it in the refridgerator until I could get into the vet the next morning.


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## bridget246 (Oct 26, 2011)

They didn't find anything at all in the stool besides mucus. Of course this test didn't prove it isn't there. And yet another vet has now recommended that I put Bridget on a special diet for improvements. I swear she was doing fine on raw before all of this took place.


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## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

I'm almost sorry it wasn't giardia. That's easy to fix.

I wouldn't go off raw. Of course they are going to suggest a special diet (which often has the word "Science" in it). Just take the steps to get her tummy back in order and then start again.


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## bridget246 (Oct 26, 2011)

xellil said:


> I'm almost sorry it wasn't giardia. That's easy to fix.
> 
> I wouldn't go off raw. Of course they are going to suggest a special diet (which often has the word "Science" in it). Just take the steps to get her tummy back in order and then start again.


Yep. There is another one too. My favorite is the soy one. Vet looked at me with a straight face and told me that it has meat in it. They just don't list it because of all the changes they put the meat through before making it into the kibble. I guess they really expected me to jump for joy over that information. I also got a printed out document about the problems related based off a study done in 2002. This paper was very lacking in facts. I swear it could have been written by a high schooler and yet a vet recommends that I read it! I'll copy it and paste it for you guys. Though I think it is already on the net. 

On another note. Giving how everyone is only using tablespoons of pedialyte I have to wonder if I brought the right thing. I swear mines says to use half the bottle or the whole bottle to help. It makes me think that maybe mines is already watered down maybe?

Edit: I was hoping that would be it to. But I like I said above a stool test doesn't always prove it. Only when the adults are producing eggs can it be found in the stool. Otherwise it requires a smear test to know for sure. That would be the easiest thing to treat.


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## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

bridget246 said:


> Yep. There is another one too. My favorite is the soy one. Vet looked at me with a straight face and told me that it has meat in it. They just don't list it because of all the changes they put the meat through before making it into the kibble.


I think my jaw actually dropped when i read that.


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

i promise not to assume.

she probably needed what you gave her, so no harm, no foul.....

if she doesn't have giardia...then my dear and this is where i feel a little stern ness is needed....this dog needs some supervision.....this is not the first time...and during transition.....especially with what you've done and others have done and the dog has done....

once we get the intestinal tract to calm down.....then you're going to have to do what i had to do, when i messed up my dogs.....and had black liquid shooting out of their behinds....

strictly nothing else besides chicken backs, skin removed, kidneys removed. nothing else....

feed some chicken broth over the next twenty four hours and start over....a little bit 1/4 cup at a time every three to four hours for the next 24..if she hasn't had the runs in 24 hours, give her a 1/2 chicken back in the a.m. 

if she hasn't shot black fluid or brown pudding, give her another 1/2 chicken back in about four hours.....

i would feed 1.5% of her ideal weight for at least a week or two of ONLY chicken backs...and then we can slowly move on.

but if she keeps getting into things and eating inappropriate foods, then i will be the first one to say it might be time to rethink this.

raw is the best option, in my opinion, but it takes some user responsibility, ya know? to get the dog started....not every dog has an iron gut. 

yours is one of them...especially now. okay? deal?


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## monkeys23 (Dec 8, 2010)

xellil said:


> I think my jaw actually dropped when i read that.


I think mine did too.



magicre said:


> i promise not to assume.
> 
> she probably needed what you gave her, so no harm, no foul.....
> 
> ...


Yes, follow this advice to a T! She basically has to start completely over in transition.
Dedicated to proper carnivore nutrition - Prey Model Raw Feeding for Dogs & Cats for a refresher on where to go next after the week or two of chicken backs only. Personally after she is stabilized on chicken backs for a week or two I would go to chicken quarters for a week or so, then on to turkey necks. Only leave on skin/organ remnants on the chicken parts after she's been stable for a goodly period of time. And it goes without saying that if she's suddenly on the other end of the spectrum and having powder poo, its time to go from backs to quarters OR simply start leaving the skin on because dietary fat is important... she just needs a good simple reboot with no extras right now.
Just remember to go very slow!

The reason I did not go slow with Scout was that I knew she would have no issues with skin on bone in chicken. I literally just tossed her half a chicken once she was totally empty tummy-wise because I knew she wouldn't have a problem with it. And she didn't. But my dog isn't your dog, so GO VERY SLOW and follow the advice you've been given!


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## bridget246 (Oct 26, 2011)

magicre said:


> i promise not to assume.
> 
> she probably needed what you gave her, so no harm, no foul.....
> 
> ...


I want to take on more responsibility. I really did. I've just taking on too much. So I try to delegate. I give clear instructions as well what could happen if they aren't followed. Problem is most of the time they aren't followed. Not anyone else's fault. Life throws fast balls and if your not ready they will hit you. I'd be there myself but there are times when more pressing matters require my attention so I try to delegate. It has came back to bite me more times than I can count. I'm not even speaking about the dog only here. Nor am I referring only to my girlfriend. I just don't get why people agree to do things that they don't do. 

I'm going to have to delegate even more in the coming week. It is really the only real choice I have. I've decided to cut out dog parks and our training class for now. Were dropping out. I will instead focus on getting Bridget better and myself because I know I'm pushing myself way too hard. She is great at dog parks and class when I'm beside her. I guess there are things only I can do if I can't then they can't be done. I would love to get Bridget on more walks and for that I will have to get help. But I have to keep in mind that if I'm ever going to be able to do these things I will have to get myself better first.


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## BoxerParty (Nov 9, 2011)

bridget246 said:


> I want to take on more responsibility. I really did. I've just taking on too much. So I try to delegate. I give clear instructions as well what could happen if they aren't followed. Problem is most of the time they aren't followed. Not anyone else's fault. Life throws fast balls and if your not ready they will hit you. I'd be there myself but there are times when more pressing matters require my attention so I try to delegate. It has came back to bite me more times than I can count. I'm not even speaking about the dog only here. Nor am I referring only to my girlfriend. I just don't get why people agree to do things that they don't do.
> 
> I'm going to have to delegate even more in the coming week. It is really the only real choice I have. I've decided to cut out dog parks and our training class for now. Were dropping out. I will instead focus on getting Bridget better and myself because I know I'm pushing myself way too hard. She is great at dog parks and class when I'm beside her. I guess there are things only I can do if I can't then they can't be done. I would love to get Bridget on more walks and for that I will have to get help. But I have to keep in mind that if I'm ever going to be able to do these things I will have to get myself better first.



This post shows that you know what the source of your problems are, and that is the first step to getting on the track you would like to be on. Awesome!

I agree with Re's suggestion that you treat Bridget as started raw from scratch. I did this with my two in January when they both had profuse cannon-butt diarrhea and vomiting, and had lost TONS of weight. I started them back from the very beginning, and went SUPER slowly, and they are now putting on weight AND are eating more proteins, more boneless meals, and are having no trouble at all. Don't be afraid to start over - it will (with any luck) go much more smoothly now that you have some experience under your belt with this way of feeding. 

I'm in no way religious/spiritual, but I do believe that we have experiences for a reason - you have learned that you are taking on too much. That awareness means that you are empowered to make a change for the better. Set some priorities for yourself, and for Bridget. Don't allow the things that are lower priorities take over.

I'm so glad to hear that she doesn't seem to have a major health problem - that is the BEST possible news.


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

here's the thing...

there are dogs whose owners start out with whatever protein, the dog has an iron gut and life moves beautifully.

then there are owners who over think and are given bad advice, follow a recommendation that is incorrect without researching....and their dogs end up with a nice case of gastroenteritis.

mine did. i followed a generic outline on another forum NOT THIS ONE....and my dogs had black liquid shooting out of them. in five days time, i quit. 

went back to home cooking and as far as i was concerned, that was it.

and, then a very kind soul took pity of the pitiful letter i wrote. i had followed him from forum to forum where he'd been proudly banned from every one...and he took me under my wing....

but it took fully two months to get my dogs' systems back under control.

stripping skin and fat and kidneys off 40 lb. cases of chicken backs. not fun.

but my bad. it was my bad. i blindly followed advice.

you're delegating to people who might not understand what's going on with her......and they don't realise she's got quite the case of hyper motility, which is fancy dancy for oops, her intestines are moving too fast...too fast to solidify anything...

i don't know how that's going to work....i honestly don't. i don't mean to sound pessimistic, but bridget sounds like a handful...and i presume you are either in school or working or whatever you're doing that you have others feeding her.

and it sounds like they are not keeping an eye on her as you would. is that a fair or unfair assessment.


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## bridget246 (Oct 26, 2011)

magicre said:


> here's the thing...
> 
> there are dogs whose owners start out with whatever protein, the dog has an iron gut and life moves beautifully.
> 
> ...



With Bridget I have my girlfriend helping me with walks and sometimes it was food but problems often resulted from the food part of this. She is the co-owner of Bridget. She picked the dog out and paid for the dog. But then realized how much work I put into keeping her safe and getting her behavior problems under control. But I needed us both to be on the same page on everything as that would make things far easier. However, she kept cutting corners and Bridget would pay for it. Taking Bridget off the leash when I wasn't around wasn't a good idea since she hasn't practiced a recall. Bridget stopped playing with her dog friend and ran around a house to a backyard where she consumed throw up from someone who was drunk at a party. At this time I was at work and I worked some pretty long hours. Taking Bridget off the leash was no longer an option unless I was there. This was the first real sign of Bridget's problem. It was never perfect expect for when we started raw. That was the best ever.

My therapist told me I was doing too much and needed to stop walking unless it was only for a few minutes. Before this walking limitation I was taking Bridget to the dog park for exercise and enjoyment. My mom banned me off the treadmill because she didn't like how skinny my dog was. But I noticed how stools were even better when she exercised. Mental training was great but you can't really beat a good run I had thought. So at the dog park I worked through all the issues. That same puddle that Bridget drunk out of this time I stopped her the last few times. My girl friend was there watching us but not interacting like I was hoping for. Bridget was having so much fun with me in the park that I would forget about the pain in my hips and that caused me more issues. The last time we went is was my GF idea. I knew I couldn't do it so I was hoping she could. I showed her how, spoke to her about everything and hoped they'd have fun together. My guess is that I was ignored. Bridget didn't have much fun that day because my GF thought Bridget only wanted to play with the other dogs and didn't want to be bothered with her training her. I know I pointed out that Bridget loves it when her owners are involved and she listens better which means we keep things safe. I suppose I shouldn't have been so trusting. She always tell me she wanted to be more involved with Bridget like I am or was. But now she has some doubts on rather or not she can even come close. My idea was to have her work with Bridget more in the house while I sit back quietly watching and giving feedback at her request. I think she might have attempted once and then gave up. 

This whole time I kept telling myself we were doing things as a team. I showed her everything I ever did with Bridget. She enjoyed repeating the training and loved Bridget's response to her. So it has been hard on me to try to understand why this keeps happening. I get the feeling when I go into therapy tomorrow I'm going to lose even more freedom of movement. 

You make a fair assessment. I lost my job though a few months back. My injury prevented me for getting a new one for the time being. My girlfriend has been a huge help financially despite everything that has been going on. I pretended off the directions magicre gave me. They seemed fair enough. I showed them to my GF so again we could be on the same page with everything. I know following anyone blindly is a problem. But I don't think it takes much to see that I don't know much about this. I've spoken to other raw feeders, vets, internet searches but this is the only place where I've been giving a nice little guideline to follow that fits my dog. I'd hate to take away her fat because that seemed to be the source of her energy and you were the one who pointed out that I was striving her. I also understand that this is only a temp fix to make things easier on her. So I'm going to follow this guideline. If it worked before it has to work again is what I keep telling myself. Though it wasn't this hard to get started the first time. I have to wonder that maybe there is something wrong but the vets only test for things that I point out and can't really be trusted to do anything more than that. It is like a doctor in that sense. The doctor told me I'd be better in a week at the most. The physical therapist time of recovery wasn't so pleasing to hear.

The chicken broth was a great help. She is perking back up. Didn't know how much of the slippery elm to give so I cut recommended daily limit by 3/4. It says 4 a day I'm going to try 1 a day.


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

it's never easy to admit that we have limits...believe me, i understand limits..

your girlfriend...is it possible for her to join this forum, so she can be a part of bridget's feeding and have a greater understanding of transition?

it will work...no matter how many times you have to start over...and this will be the last time, because you don't want to hurt this dog you love so much...

please try to get your mom to understand that raw fed dogs are lean, not skinny...the treadmill is the best thing for her, given your circumstances...and maybe your therapist can help you talk to her.....and remove her as an obstacle to bridget's well being....

plus, your girlfriend, being a co owner, can maybe talk to your mother with you and tell your mother that bridget is a headstrong puppy who needs to have energy drained, so that she doesn't grow up uncontrollable....

giving her one slippery elm for the next few days is fine. it's a bandaid anyway....and shouldn't be given for too long...

i know all about doctors and their promises...six years later, i'm not in such good shape, either. 

but....you are the author of your own destiny and if your world has become smaller, even limited.....we adapt...we face our reality, mourn that which we lost, and move on to the next reality....

feeding bridget raw will become easier.....the treadmill will drain her energy. those two things....will make for a great dog.

but i have a feeling that anything done with bridget is going to be on your head, whether you lose more ability to move or not....

that's why that treadmill is such a must....and you're a big boy....tell your mother you're too old to ban off the treadmill. bridget doesn't have to run. she needs a long distance walk....that's what my dogs do......

think about it. i have faith in you because you have a big strong heart and you really want this. and what we really want, we do.


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## rannmiller (Jun 27, 2008)

How'd your pup doing today?


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## bridget246 (Oct 26, 2011)

rannmiller said:


> How'd your pup doing today?


She is looking a little more lively so the chicken broth water is working. I waited until this day to feed her chicken backs. It was a little longer than 24 hours but I wanted to get everything out of her first. Today she ate 8 oz's. That's it. I don't think she is doing well. With little money I have little choice but to ask you guys for help with the vet bill. It is very embarrassing for me to do so. I'll make my own thread for this. I'm just worried that maybe, just maybe she has another problem here. I never seen this mucus with the kibble before. She throw up today after her second feeding. I fed her both times myself. We started this with young chicken thighs and legs. Maybe that is what we should go back to instead of backs because I just recently found backs and to Bridget they are actually new.

I asked for donations in the general thread. May not be the best way to go about doing things. I'd rather be safe than sorry. I'm trying my hardest to follow all the steps that have been shared with me.


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

bridget246 said:


> She is looking a little more lively so the chicken broth water is working. I waited until this day to feed her chicken backs. It was a little longer than 24 hours but I wanted to get everything out of her first. Today she ate 8 oz's. That's it. I don't think she is doing well. With little money I have little choice but to ask you guys for help with the vet bill. It is very embarrassing for me to do so. I'll make my own thread for this. I'm just worried that maybe, just maybe she has another problem here. I never seen this mucus with the kibble before. She throw up today after her second feeding. I fed her both times myself. We started this with young chicken thighs and legs. Maybe that is what we should go back to instead of backs because I just recently found backs and to Bridget they are actually new.
> 
> I asked for donations in the general thread. May not be the best way to go about doing things. I'd rather be safe than sorry. I'm trying my hardest to follow all the steps that have been shared with me.


the mucus is normal in a newly transitioned dog. her intestinal tract is shedding the mucus lining...

did you ever get slippery elm?

how did she do with her eight ounces? has she kept it down? does she still have liquid stools?


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## bridget246 (Oct 26, 2011)

magicre said:


> the mucus is normal in a newly transitioned dog. her intestinal tract is shedding the mucus lining...
> 
> did you ever get slippery elm?
> 
> how did she do with her eight ounces? has she kept it down? does she still have liquid stools?


She kept it down. She still have liquid stool full of mucus. Skin is feeling dry again. I did get the slippery elm. Also, a new problem is the breath. It smells like something died. After she ate last night it went away. Then this morning she yawned and it was back. I don't know how to explain it. It smells like something rotten.

Bridget has had a ton of problem in the past. But it was always the same process every time. First she would have diarrhea and then she'd be constipated. Next some weird bumps would appear. Then finally Bridget wouldn't have any energy. She would have a hard time staying up after a normal walk. I could see in her eyes that she really wanted to keep playing and she just couldn't. It sounds really bad but that was the never ending cycle she had on kibble. Antibiotics would make her fine again and then the whole process would restart. I kept feeling like I was slowly killing her. 

Beef, and chicken flavoring caused a more extreme reaction. 5 minutes after eating anything with it would gave her extreme diarrhea. It would just come out where ever she was. Huge piles of it. 

I will keep things going like normal and try to make them better. But this mucus wasn't there when we first went to raw. I don't know if it was because I started her out on young chicken but her raw translation couldn't have been more perfect.


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## whiteleo (Sep 7, 2008)

My guess is she has giardia...it has a horrible smell..


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

if she did well on young chickens, go back to that...do what works.

the mucus is normal for a transitioning dog.

i'd give her the slippery elm for a day or two to calm down her intestinal tract. i would not fast her anymore....

make her chicken broth without salt.....and also give her a little of that.

but give her the slippery elm....

i still think it's giardia, as whiteleo says, but maybe someone can come on here and offer a solution for that without involving a vet.


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## whiteleo (Sep 7, 2008)

Yes, safeguard paste but I don't know the dosage for dogs, I had my vet do it up...It was the only thing that worked for my dogs when they had giardia, the metro pills are awful and are horrible on a dogs system like I posted on the other thread..


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

i just spoke with whiteleo....

safeguard is the same as pannacur..

here is what i found on the internet

http://www.vetrxdirect.com/product/view/panacur-c-dewormer-for-dogs?gclid=CP-rrOTcua4CFQOEhwodHybeIQ

Panacur C (fenbendazole) 

1. Select Product – Please Select Product – 3 X 1 gram Packets – $6.99 3 X 2 gram Packets – $10.99 3 X 4 gram Packets – $16.99
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2. Enter Quantity 
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1-866-761-6578 

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More Details

Description More InformationPackage InsertPanacur C (fenbendazole) Canine Dewormer for the treatment and control of Roundworms, Hookworms, Whipworms and Tapeworms (Taenia spp.). Granules from a pouch mix conveniently with food. Use 1 gram per 10 lbs. once per day for three days. 

Why has my veterinarian prescribed this medicine?
Fenbendazole is a broad-spectrum de-wormer that is used to treat many of the intestinal parasites that affect pet animals.


How do I give this medication?
•Give this medication to your pet as directed by your veterinarian. READ THE LABEL CAREFULLY.
•If the medicine is a liquid, measure the dose with reasonable care.
•Try to give this medication at about the same time each day.
•DO NOT give the pet more medicine than directed.
•DO NOT give more often than directed.
•Try not to miss giving any doses.

What if I miss giving a dose?
Give the dose as soon as possible. If it is almost time for the next dose, skip the missed dose, and continue with the regular schedule. Do not give the pet two doses at once.


How do I store this medicine?
•Keep this medicine out of reach of children.
•Store this medicine in a cool, dry place at room temperature. Store away from heat and direct sunlight.
•Do not store this medicine in the bathroom, near the kitchen sink or in damp places. The medicine may break down if exposed to heat or moisture.

What are the potential side effects?
"There are very few side effects when the drug is given at the usual dose."
•There are very few side effects when the drug is given at the usual dose. 
•Rarely, vomiting may occur.
•Other side effects may occur. If you notice anything unusual, contact your veterinarian.

Are there any possible drug interactions?
•Make sure to tell your veterinarian if you are giving your pet any other medication or supplements. 
•Quite often, your veterinarian may prescribe two different medications, and sometimes a drug interaction may be anticipated. If this occurs, your veterinarian may vary the dose and/or monitor your pet more closely.
•Contact your veterinarian if your pet experiences any unusual reactions when different medications are given together.

Directions:

The daily dose for Panacur® C is 50 mg/kg (22.7 mg/lb) of body weight. Please refer to the following dosing table for help in finding the right dose for your dog.

Dosing Table




Dog Weight
Packet Size*

10 pounds
1 gram

20 pounds
2 gram

30 pounds
1 gram + 2 gram

40 pounds
4 gram

50 pounds
1 gram + 4 gram

60 pounds
2 gram + 4 gram

80 pounds
Two 4 gram

Over 80 pounds
Use combinations to obtain recommended daily dose.

this is the dosage for dogs.....i believe that safeguard can be purchased at feed stores.....it is usually given to horses, but can be used for dogs.

the ingredient in safeguard is the same as the ingredient in pannacur which is used to treat giardia.

please call your vet first.....because i am not a vet.


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## SaharaNight Boxers (Jun 28, 2011)

If you have a holistic vet in the area and you call them they might be able to give you a homeopathic remedy. May I also suggest you buy a homeopathic/holistic dog care book? It would have a lot of remedies you can do so you wouldn't have to go to the vet.


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

SaharaNight Boxers said:


> If you have a holistic vet in the area and you call them they might be able to give you a homeopathic remedy. May I also suggest you buy a homeopathic/holistic dog care book? It would have a lot of remedies you can do so you wouldn't have to go to the vet.


that's a great suggestion.....i wish i knew more about homeopathy to make a suggestion, but i don't.  

i'm in that learning phase where i don't know what i don't know.


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## Liz (Sep 27, 2010)

I use Grapefruit Seed Extract in liquid form by Nutribiotics - health food store about 8 dollars. Use 3 drops per five pounds of body weight three times per day. You need to feed this in a ball of ground meat, peanut butter, anything to hide the taste as it is very bitter. You should see inmprovement with a day or two at most fedd three times per day for 5 days - the twice per day for 5 days - then once per day - then every other day until weaned off. Will also help with any other type of parasite. Keep offer some pedialtye several times per day to make sure she is hydrated and balanced.


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## Noodlesmadison (Sep 18, 2011)

And this is why I don't go to dog parks - full of crazy people


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## chewice (Jan 1, 2012)

Can you not go to the vet and get some pannacur? 

Im no vet but at this point...it wouldn't hurt to try!? Giardia only tests positive if the eggs are present and sometimes hides itself.


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## bridget246 (Oct 26, 2011)

SaharaNight Boxers said:


> If you have a holistic vet in the area and you call them they might be able to give you a homeopathic remedy. May I also suggest you buy a homeopathic/holistic dog care book? It would have a lot of remedies you can do so you wouldn't have to go to the vet.


I went to one of them already. Cost me 150 dollars. Said he couldn't do anything for Bridget if I didn't want to take the overly processed foods. It wasn't the royal one. This one was soy based with no meat. He couldn't help me with heartworm either. He turned me over to Ohio State. I just hated how he didn't really even exam my dog. 



magicre said:


> if she did well on young chickens, go back to that...do what works.
> 
> the mucus is normal for a transitioning dog.
> 
> ...


She gets slippery elm. Chicken broth without any salt. The young chicken was sold out but the backs seem to be working. Chicken backs are harder to cut everything off but they seem to be working. 



Liz said:


> I use Grapefruit Seed Extract in liquid form by Nutribiotics - health food store about 8 dollars. Use 3 drops per five pounds of body weight three times per day. You need to feed this in a ball of ground meat, peanut butter, anything to hide the taste as it is very bitter. You should see inmprovement with a day or two at most fedd three times per day for 5 days - the twice per day for 5 days - then once per day - then every other day until weaned off. Will also help with any other type of parasite. Keep offer some pedialtye several times per day to make sure she is hydrated and balanced.


That is a really great idea. I'll have to give that a try. It has to be better than those antibiotics the vets always tried to push on me. 



Noodlesmadison said:


> And this is why I don't go to dog parks - full of crazy people


I'm actually going to get Bridget a harness made that says do not feed me!



chewice said:


> Can you not go to the vet and get some pannacur?
> 
> Im no vet but at this point...it wouldn't hurt to try!? Giardia only tests positive if the eggs are present and sometimes hides itself.


Trying wouldn't hurt. But her stool is solid now. It's just not the normal color. Still orange. Once my GF thought the found gray stool. I was lucky because she left it on the ground so I got a chance to inspect it. It wasn't gray. Just had a ton of mucus on it. 

I found another holistic vet in my area. We only have 2. This one promises to not give out any processes foods because they are holistic. Imagine that. Apparently the first one I tried didn't get the memo. Going to give him another call on Monday to see if he does work with the heartworm. If so I might not need to do OSU and we can all eat this month. Currently only the dog is getting the good food.

I'm going to try to raise her food to 10oz's today. I'm hoping if I only raise it a little every couple of days her system will have time to completely repair itself. Yesterday and today we stuck with 8 oz's.


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## bridget246 (Oct 26, 2011)

At OSU now. Bridget is in the back. This part always makes me nervous. 

Update: she still has mucus in the stool. But it is solid.

Going to worry myself sick if she doesn't get back soon and I don't have any reason to worry.


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## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

Yes, I do everything not to have my dogs taken away from me except force them at gunpoint to let me back there, but sometimes it just doesn't work.


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

xellil said:


> Yes, I do everything not to have my dogs taken away from me except force them at gunpoint to let me back there, but sometimes it just doesn't work.


i used to do that...and then i realised that if they are getting a blood draw or something minor, i don't want them associating me with the needle.

plus, i've been manipulating, i mean, going to this vet for a decade. they have a very low turnover at this particular place....so i know everyone....and they ooh and ahh over my dogs....i guess they know i'm a beeyatch so they all tread carefully.


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## bridget246 (Oct 26, 2011)

xellil said:


> Yes, I do everything not to have my dogs taken away from me except force them at gunpoint to let me back there, but sometimes it just doesn't work.


Me too. It gets me made fun of. This is taking a long time. The price had better be the one quoted over the phone. Nobody has told me the actually charge. I wish I could check on her.


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## bridget246 (Oct 26, 2011)

Bridget isn't well at all. They want to do a few test. They are trying to get me a diet plan. Looking into heartworm. Trying to help me on the price. Am either about to cry or faintor both.


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## LucyinSweden (Feb 20, 2012)

Bridget, I'm so sorry.  

Is it possible for you to look into pet insurance in the future? I have to have it here ad I am insanely thankful I do. I was able to pay the entire year at one time and got a discount. Lucy was sick earlier this year and ended up needing to be at the vet an entire day for fluids and antibiotics. It cost the equivalent of $1000, and I only had to pay 4. I mean, it was still a lot (she wasn't over 6 months at the time so the costs were higher) but it could have been worse!


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## Igandwhippetlover (Feb 20, 2012)

Our vets are now using doxicillen anti-biotics for a month then putting them on a heavier dose of just Ivermectin. The doxicillen slows down the heart-worms 
and the ivermectin kills them. As for diarrhea, we use pumpkin in a can, the pumpkin pie mix, just plain pumpkin. The stools will turn orange but it brings back
firm stools.
We use ivermectin for our dogs instead of Heartguard or any other product.


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## bridget246 (Oct 26, 2011)

I have the heartworm. They are removing the fee because things are not as I was told they would be. I'm making another appointment in two weeks. Or I just might get the test they say I may need done elsewhere for much cheaper and skip on the nutritionist. To many choices. Will post later on this in detail. 

Nevermind. I'll be back Wednesday.


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## bridget246 (Oct 26, 2011)

Things were looking better. They really were. But I've ran out of time on getting Bridget's weight back. I was so close before but it took me over a month to get there. Now, I'm ready back near the start. Bridget was checked out. Her body isn't doing well because her nutrition intake amount. I'm going to have to feed faster and up her food a little faster than what I wanted to and give her some positive thoughts.

Here is the post that talks about what they want to do. It isn't directly related to the problem of this thread so this thread can die for now. I like to keep my threads as separate as possible so anyone going through any issues can read through those threads and find help. A big shift in topic in the middle makes it harder to follow when people are glancing through trying to help which means fewer people are sharing their knowledge and it gets harder for others to find solutions. I think Bridget is over her incident and we are now on to the next problem. 

Cost of this latest vet visit: 25 to transfer the chart. The visit official didn't exist. The nutritionist who was promised would be there wasn't there and the vet said that since I was misinformed, they check the phone records, they will not charge me for the visit. But that also means they couldn't get me the heartworm into a have an official visit with the nutritionist because it has to be on the their doctors who signs for it. 



LucyinSweden said:


> Bridget, I'm so sorry.
> 
> Is it possible for you to look into pet insurance in the future? I have to have it here ad I am insanely thankful I do. I was able to pay the entire year at one time and got a discount. Lucy was sick earlier this year and ended up needing to be at the vet an entire day for fluids and antibiotics. It cost the equivalent of $1000, and I only had to pay 4. I mean, it was still a lot (she wasn't over 6 months at the time so the costs were higher) but it could have been worse!


I have insurance. I just have to come up with all the money upfront. My insurance isn't fast as they claim they are. Just getting my check on Wednesday from a claim I made a few months ago. Pet Partners, AKC insurance promises 14 days but it rarely if ever done in that time. 

link to next problem


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## whiteleo (Sep 7, 2008)

I just want everyone to know that Bridget246 or Tyron sent me back the money I loaned him for the vet...Not everyone is out to get something for nothing..

So thank you! and I'm glad that all is worked out...


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