# week long diarrhea



## minnieme

So most of you probably know Minnie's story as I've posted it multiple times in the raw feeding forum, but here goes again for anyone who may have missed it.

Minnie switched to raw on July 1st of this year. We haven't moved past anything other than chicken as we've hit many bumps along the way. I think the *main* culprit is Zuke's chicken flavored mini naturals dog treats. At least she was doing very well on chicken prior to that and then on those days -- the only days she had those particular treats -- she had horrible cannon butt. She's such a good girl and always tells us she needs to go, thus preventing accidents in the house, but she definitely runs outside to relieve herself. It is definitely urgent and usually it's about a quarter cup of brown liquid. The first day that she has them she'll need to go within 20 mins of eating them, and will likely wake me up 4-5 times to go out that night. Then it kind of tapers off..but she still has diarrhea for around a whole -week-. Do you know how debilitating week long diarrhea is? Not to mention how much weight she loses? I have started over with her raw diet....she gets about a pound of skinless, fat removed chicken backs a day now, which is only about 1% of her weight. And now, this is the third time she's gotten into the treats...and she's battling diarrhea again.

Before anyone tells me how foolish I am for giving these treats, they were in a smart toy that she had to roll around to dispense and she normally doesn't play with it. It was a gift from family and only a last resort if she was really hungry. I guess I never put 2 and 2 together because she's rarely successful and rarely even shows interest in it. It was only yesterday when I noticed she got out and ate 3 of those tiny treats....that I realized there was likely a connection. 

So...when we got her she was already thin. Now I can see all ribs and her spine. Unfortunately I don't have any pics of her right now, but she looks very similar to this great dane ...pardon my hot linking: http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_-s2o5wdOwN8/S8E8MAw-A1I/AAAAAAAAF_I/d9WZ8fN5ZH8/s1600/20100410_72.JPG

Is there anything I can do to stop this diarrhea in its tracks? Like I mentioned, she is eating well below what she normally gets it. And if I were to fast her (which breaks my heart), that would be the third or fourth time in about 3 weeks. I am afraid I am going to kill her. I have tried slippery elm...which doesn't really work that great -- only quells nausea. Have heard about pepto. Can someone chime in? I'm not only nervous for her health, but concerned for my mental well-being! I'm on the verge of tears whenever I look at her! 

And here we were doing so well........... how can those teeny treats cause week long diarrhea? Is there something deeper, more sinister wrong with her -- or is it just the constant irritation of food hitting an inflamed gut??

Sorry for the novel...but thanks for all your help.


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## CavePaws

I don't think fasting her to give her gi tract a break would be a bad idea to be honest. I've had to fast my dogs more than once in a week because of loose stools ( my mother fed them foul smelling chicken. :| ). I'd fast her...I'd also take the treats completely out of the picture. Get rid of what you think the problem is, if it turns out she is still having the runs then you'll have to figure something out. Maybe take a stool sample in to the vet just to be sure there isn't a parasite or something else that can be treated with antibiotics. I'm under the impression that when dogs are switching to raw the risk of them actually not being able to properly deal with certain bacteria or a certain load is compromised...Their body has to basically change the pH of their stomach in order to kill off most bacteria. Their metabolism may have also slowed because of the kibble eating days (kibble takes longer to digest) All I'm saying is they may, in theory and any one who knows better can correct this idea of mine, be more susceptible to getting a bit sick from the bacteria when they are just starting out. A lb of chicken back, skin removed, per day should be really clogging her up. If you are getting the runs for that I would think that if a good ol' 24 hr fast, then maybe .5 lb of chicken back one day, then 1 lb of a chicken back the next doesn't firm her up completely...If it doesn't I'd take a fecal sample in. Just my suggestion! :]


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## minnieme

Thank you....unfortunately I thought fasting might be the ticket too....as..to be honest, in the past it has been the only thing that has helped. It is so hard....she's so frickin skinny, and my boyfriend is very against it because of that. But she was doing so well on raw....and then those stupid treats got in the mix. Everyone please cross your fingers that I make it through this week alive.......these diarrhea bouts seriously take their toll on me.


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## CavePaws

Completely understandable. My boyfriends dog, Pooper, is naturally racing grey hound skinny. She has all that lean muscle but her ribs and hip bones were very visible before I switched her to raw. She had diarrhea for a few days and it took me a while to get it under control. She lost weight fast and looked pretty darn skinny, ribs protruding, hip bones out. I was sort of concerned, but not overly concerned, as she still had plenty of energy, ate fine, and was acting normal other than the skinniness/diarrhea...Dogs out in the wild often look pretty malnourished and I can imagine that some days they may go without eating anything other than dirt or bugs/grubs to fill their stomachs. So, I decided to fast her for a day and a half, then feed her half her usual portion, then finally moved it back up to her full 2 lbs a day. That dog needs A LOT of food to stay at a weight where she doesn't look horrible...So believe me I understand how you feel about not wanting to fast. :/ It's tough but sometimes you need to do it and your dog won't die from it unless you starve them for a week or two! Like I said if that does not work I'd take a stool sample in.


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## RawFedDogs

When you say "diarrhea", do you mean runny water or soft serve ice cream or cow pies? If she's had runny water for a week, time to see the vet. If cow pies, feed her nothing but chicken backs until she gets solid again. Shouldn't take more than a few days. Feed her less than usual also.


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## minnieme

Water....As of now she's had it for over 24 hrs - her last poo was actually at 11pm last night and nothing since, but I can almost guarantee that if I were to feed her right now, it'd eventually come out watery. While I think my vet might tell me to fast again (and then do chicken and rice), I think I will call and try to get her in today. Her weight loss is really alarming and perhaps he has something a bit more heavy duty than slippery elm that can help her.


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## chowder

When Chelsy gets severe bloody diarrhea from getting into salmon or salmon oil food (or treats) I give her Immodium. It has been the only thing that saved her many times. The vet has approved it for her colitis.

Rocky can't have immodium because he is allergic to heartgard (same family) but I have doggie kaopectate on hand for him. When we were in Arizona and he got into bad water and had week long diarrhea, we gave him the kaopectate and it worked.

Of course call your vet before giving any of these to your dog. These are just what I use on my two and I know that it works. We couldn't have made it through Chelsy's bouts of colitis without the immodium on hand because she would get so bad.


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## minnieme

Thank you all for your kind and quick replies. I did take a fecal sample into the vet today as she had more diarrhea this morning, which I could have predicted. BUT, it was a little more solid (if there's a consistency between mud and water, that'd be it...maybe like a creamy soup......have i ruined everyone's day yet? :smile: just kidding, i know none of you are scared off by poop!) Regardless, the vet suggested another fast too and when he saw the grimace I made when he said it, he said "Jill, it'd be like trying to put out a fire with gasoline." Which again....makes sense. I know my girl, and I know fasting is the only trick for her -- though thank you, chowder for your suggestion -- I will definitely get some immodium for the future as the vet said it would be okay (never tried that one).

He thinks that it's just the transition to raw.....well, not the transition itself but the fact that treats got involved.  Boy do I feel like a bad mama for not putting it together sooner...or for not denying her any treats altogether....(even if they seemed impossible for her lazy self to get at -- she did not get any treats aside from this). 

I will keep you all updated...but thanks for being my life line in a scary time. I appreciate you all so much. Group hug! :grouphug:


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## minnieme

Btw, fecals just came back negative for any parasites/bacteria


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## magicre

i said it in private message and i'll say it again.
her poo is getting less watery and more solid, though not at all where you want it.

from watery to soupy is a positive sign.

slippery elm does not just quell nausea, it coats the intestinal lining and the gastric lining....

i really feel you are on the right track.....the stools are less than they were before the last bout of zuke's treats and they are soupy, which is a step in the right direction.

she is eating with an appetite...which tells me that she needs time. this is not an overnight thing.

at this stage, she needs to eat. half of what her weight says she should have, but she needs to eat. this will resolve.


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## DaneMama

I have to agree with Re here. She's making progress even if it is slow. Just stick with one thing and be consistent. Cut out all treats. Fast her, feed her small meals to begin with, and slowly add more food back in. 

I've been in the same boat as you with skinny Danes. It broke my heart to see them so thin, but sticking to raw got them on the right track. You've got to remember that they're dogs and can handle being fasted. The picture you posted is of a thin Dane, but that dog also has good muscle build. A dog that is truly starving or "wasting away" wouldn't have muscle tone really at all. 

Keep us posted.


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## DaneMama

And please don't fast for more than 24 hours. There's no need to go longer than that.


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## minnieme

Gave her a 1/2 lb chicken back...and within 15 mins more diarrhea. This time though it was half of that soupy consistency and half mucous. Pure, clear jelly looking mucous. Have never seen that much before (at least a quarter cup if not a little more). I know mucous helps coat the intestines and get things out a bit more smoothly, but I was amazed by the amount of it (and the fact that it wasn't really coating anything at all, it seemed).


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## magicre

minnieme said:


> Gave her a 1/2 lb chicken back...and within 15 mins more diarrhea. This time though it was half of that soupy consistency and half mucous. Pure, clear jelly looking mucous. Have never seen that much before (at least a quarter cup if not a little more). I know mucous helps coat the intestines and get things out a bit more smoothly, but I was amazed by the amount of it (and the fact that it wasn't really coating anything at all, it seemed).


the pure clear jelly looking mucous for anyone who doesn't know, if the slippery elm bark....it coats the lining of the gastric system and intestinatl tract with mucous to protect...and now it's excreting...that's all that is.

the slippery bark was coating the lining. if you stop giving it, it excretes. 

it's also normal for a newly transitioned to excrete mucous....


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## DaneMama

Don't try and connect the feeding to the bowel movement. There's no possible way for food to go from one end to the other that fast. Things stay in the GI tract for at least six hours. 

When was the last time she ate any food? Not including treats or meds of any kind. Just food.


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## minnieme

She had dinner last night (chicken back - 3/4s of a pound) around 7pm.. (and more diarrhea this morning) and when I called my vet this morning he advised skipping breakfast. So we did. I just fed her dinner about 45 mins ago (5 pm) and within 15 minutes she went out -- and that's when she had that poo that I described. I didn't mention the slippery elm because I don't think she's getting enough of it to make a difference (she hasn't gotten any today either) -- so we are looking into the capsules. The powder + water is just too hard to get down (a fair amount that is).

Re has been doing a great job of helping me out...and has suggested that I give her another meal again later tonight so she's at at least a pound for the day. We will certainly do that...and hope that her poo gets progressively better....even if it is slowly.

We won't be going to her dog class tonight as she is only motivated by treats. She seems pretty content to just stay in bed anyway


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## DaneMama

Just give it time. Allow her to get better without being to anxious wanting to jump the gun to make her better faster than she is capable. 

And every single tiny bit of info is essential for us to know because we are helping you via the Internet based solely on what you post. Leaving out even the tiniest bit of info could or could not make a difference. Better to be fully forth coming than skip over things. 

Please keep us posted! I'm confident that she will do just fine, just be patient.


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## minnieme

DaneMama said:


> Just give it time. Allow her to get better without being to anxious wanting to jump the gun to make her better faster than she is capable.
> 
> And every single tiny bit of info is essential for us to know because we are helping you via the Internet based solely on what you post. Leaving out even the tiniest bit of info could or could not make a difference. Better to be fully forth coming than skip over things.
> 
> Please keep us posted! I'm confident that she will do just fine, just be patient.



Sorry didn't mean to be misleading...you're absolutely right though - I'll try to be more cognizant of this in the future. And try to collect myself better when posting at 1:30 am. ;-)

I know the scariness will subside and she will come into her raw glory soon enough. Truly appreciative for everyone's hand holding...I'm sure it must get old, but boy do I appreciate it! As does Minnie.


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