# Did someone mention raw in the kibble section?!



## CorgiPaws

I'm putting this in this section, because in the raw section it won't be seen by the people it most applies to, and i the kibble section it's sure to offend, though that's not at all my intention. 

It has recently been asked: "Can raw not be mentioned at all in the kibble section?" and it got me thinking.

On one hand, I completely understand that not everyone wants to feed raw. In comparison to kibble: it is messier, more time consuming, and in some cases more expensive. Don't get me wrong, to me it is well worth it, but I don't think that it can be as easily fit into people's routines as smoothly as a lot of raw feeders like to claim. I think that time, space, money, resources, and other things come into play. I don't think people should be made to feel bad for feeding high quality kibble. I don't love my dogs any more or less than I did when I was feeding Wellness! I just found something that makes more sense to me and works better for my pack, and I've made it happen because I'm in a position to do so. 

On the other hand, I understand what it's like to read a post, and know without a doubt that PMR will improve the quality of a dogs life, but feeling like I can't suggest it because it's in the wrong section to do so. I know what it's like to be such a believer in something that *SAVED MY DOG'S LIFE* when kibble was literally killing him. I know what it's like to see that someone is experiencing the same kind of problems I, and so many other raw feeders, have experienced first-hand with commercial pet foods. It is difficult for me, as a true lover of canines, to not share raw with every pet owner I come across, because I know it works. We do't bring it up because we have some kind of evil agenda and think we are the best pet owners ever and everyone else sucks, we do it because if it helps just one dog, it's worth it. In 2009, I posted in the kibble section with NO INTEREST in raw for several months while my puppy wasted away. Had it not been for people educating me in the kibble section about raw, I'm not so sure Grissom would be alive right now. 


I think sometimes the different sections of the forum do more damage than good, because often times if you truly want a solution to the problem, you have to be willing to try something entirely different. This goes across the entire board. I see so many people who are unwilling to try raw, when in reality it could improve their dog's quality of life so much. On the other hand, I've witnessed dogs do awful on raw that have done better when minimal amounts of plant matter are introduced, and wonder if other dogs, whom seem to have issues on PMR, would do better if their owners were more open-minded. Re is a perfect example of someone who kind of broke the barriers of their preferred method of feeding to assist in an ailment their dog was experiencing, and it worked! 

I don't expect everyone to feed raw. I don't expect everyone to want to feed raw. Shoot, there are some days I wonder if I myself will always be in a position to take the time and money I do to feed raw forever! I'd be lying if after hours of prepping, with a garage full of animal parts, and blood up to my elbows and smudged on my face hubby and I wonder how in the Hell we are going to fit this in when kids come into the picture. I wish some other raw feeders would not act as superior as they do, and not degrade kibble feeders for not feeding raw. I see it happen rarely, and it's not OK. We need to be respectful of everyone's abilities and boundaries. We need to be understanding that while raw fits perfectly into our lives, we don't know everyone's situation. 
But, at the same time, kibble feeders, please understand where we're coming from in that we don't get anything out of the time we spend here helping other people, we have no hidden agenda, it't just that sometimes, there isn't a kibble answer, no matter how badly you want there to be. I've seen dogs thrive on raw. I've seen dogs thrive on home cooked. I've seen dogs thrive on kibble. 

We all have our preferences, we all feed what makes sense to us. But I'd love it if we could with open minds, come to the understanding that we all have one thing in common: we love our dogs enough to even spend time somewhere like this. 


Sorry it's so long, I've been MIA for a while. I needed some time away, to sort some things out in my personal life, and recovery from surgery. One of the first threads I read had bickering, and that's where this came from.


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## kathylcsw

This is a powerful post CorgiPaws and I think you have said much that needs to be said. When I first joined there was a very ugly thread in the dry/canned food section with several raw feeders being rude and nsaty saying outright that it was selfish to not take the time, energy, and money to feed raw. Some even said that kibble feeders didn't love their dogs as much as raw feeders. It almost totally closed my mind to a raw diet because I didn't wnat to become one of _those* people. I have since switched to raw but will never be high handed or force my views on others. Everyone has the right to make chocies that work for themselves and their dogs and I am in no position to judge.

I do think that there should be room to mention raw in kibble and vice versa but I don't know if that will ever be able to happen in any kind of respectful manner.*_


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## Dude and Bucks Mamma

kathylcsw said:


> This is a powerful post CorgiPaws and I think you have said much that needs to be said. When I first joined there was a very ugly thread in the dry/canned food section with several raw feeders being rude and nsaty saying outright that it was selfish to not take the time, energy, and money to feed raw. Some even said that kibble feeders didn't love their dogs as much as raw feeders. It almost totally closed my mind to a raw diet because I didn't wnat to become one of _those* people. I have since switched to raw but will never be high handed or force my views on others. Everyone has the right to make chocies that work for themselves and their dogs and I am in no position to judge.
> 
> I do think that there should be room to mention raw in kibble and vice versa but I don't know if that will ever be able to happen in any kind of respectful manner.*_


_*

That's terrible! I would have been turned off if I had seen those kinds of things said too! I mean, most of us raw feeders fed kibble for years too. I fed Pedigree to Dude for seven years and we fed our dogs Iams before that. I was lucky enough to see no nasty posts until well after I had come to know many people of this forum. I feed raw but it makes my day when I convince someone to switch from Pedigree to even just Kirkland brand dog food! ...Now I just need to work on my Pedigree-feeding parents... Haha. 

I know that I am one of those who are afraid to mention raw in the kibble section so I am barely there since I can find a way to associate raw feeding with everything from canine dental care to what color the sky is! When I DO mention raw in the kibble section I will sit and debate for HOURS on whether I should just edit/delete my comment or not.*_


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## PDXdogmom

This is a touchy subject CorgiPaws. Thank you for putting yourself out there and taking the time to post your thoughts.

I realize that raw feeders often think a switch to raw may help a dog with chronic problems. They would like to feel comfortable suggesting that in the dry/canned section.

On the flip side, would raw feeders take offense if a kibble feeder responded in the raw section in a thread about a dog having really hard time handling raw. Could a kibble feeder suggest that raw doesn't work well for all dogs and maybe the OP would better serve her dog by feeding it a high quality kibble or dehydrated food; that sometimes a person's belief system might need to be put aside for the well-being of the dog?

Something to think about.


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## BrownieM

You could not have said it better.


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## twoisplenty

I am PRO Raw YET I have one male in my home that simply can not be fed a raw diet ( just so happens to be the extremely healthy and shiny handsome male in my signature picture). I have tried multiple times to switch him over but it never agrees with him so I have stopped trying to force this food on him. Its not in his best interest. He does very well on TOTW and being 7 yrs old he will enjoy his yummy kibble without throwing up multiple times per day or getting serious acid reflux.

I also hate seeing people asking for one section not to mention another section. This is a dog food forum and as long as people respect others food choices I dont see an issue in suggesting one food over another (making a suggestion/not coming across forcefully). We are all here for the best interest of our dogs and I know first hand that one way of feeding doesnt fix or help all situations.


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## xellil

PDXdogmom said:


> This is a touchy subject CorgiPaws. Thank you for putting yourself out there and taking the time to post your thoughts.
> 
> I realize that raw feeders often think a switch to raw may help a dog with chronic problems. They would like to feel comfortable suggesting that in the dry/canned section.
> 
> On the flip side, would raw feeders take offense if a kibble feeder responded in the raw section in a thread about a dog having really hard time handling raw. Could a kibble feeder suggest that raw doesn't work well for all dogs and maybe the OP would better serve her dog by feeding it a high quality kibble or dehydrated food; that sometimes a person's belief system might need to be put aside for the well-being of the dog?
> 
> Something to think about.


I don't see why not. Several people have gone back to kibble. It's been discussed on the raw forum several times that I've seen. Minnie for one went back to dry food. Re tried BARF. 

If raw wasn't working for my dogs, I would be totally willing to do something else. The reason most of us ended up doing raw wasn't because we thought it is so fantastic, but because our dogs were doing horribly on dry food and we were trying to help them.

Now, if people say anywhere that corn is good for dogs, or sawdust in dog food is ok, that's not ok and will always create an argument.

the thing about it is, you can go practically anywhere on the internet and learn about dry food. There are sites all over that rate them and talk about them. There aren't a whole lot of places like this for raw feeders. I've been on some yahoo groups and they are a poor stepsister to this site when it comes to raw.

People who feed raw are used to being laughed at, criticized, scorned, and belittled for feeding raw food. This is a rare site where raw feeders feel at home. it seems if I fed dry dog food and got my hackles up every time I READ the word "raw" on this site in the dry sections, I'd find another site that never talked about it, or disapproves of it.


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## Ania's Mommy

I feed a raw diet of the prey model variety, and I wholeheartedly believe that this diet is about the best you can do.

To be perfectly honest, I absolutely "get" why the kibble section here has gotten smaller and much less active. And I will say that it is largely because of this very topic. 

I've been around DFC a long time, and I've noticed a change. We used to have a pretty dang thriving kibble community. I know, because I came here as new mom looking for a good kibble. I poured over the treads in the kibble section trying to find just the right one, and was amazed that people knew so much. I did notice that there was a raw section, but I thought that raw was something for the crazy dog owners; not me. But I DID want to learn a LITTLE more... So every once in a while, I'd venture over. And the rest is history.

I've seen many great kibble feeders leave and not come back. And I believe that in a lot of cases, it's because they may be tired of constantly defending their choices. And, from what I've seen, it IS fairly constant. I've seen threads in which the OP practically begs the forum members to not suggest raw because raw isn't a good fit for them. BUt they still get bombarded. 

I feel like raw SHOULD be kept out of the kibble section. We NEED the kibble forum. Because most pet owners are NOT going to feed a raw diet of any kind. So can we at LEAST work together to help educate people on a GOOD kibble? Probably not if we continue to chase off the knowledgeable kibble feeders.

DFC has an amazing feature called private messaging. If you feel compelled to help a kibble feeder "see the light", so to speak, I feel that a PM is the way to go. I believe that presenting your message in that manner, rather than in open forum in a rapidly deteriorating thread, would possibly gain you much better results.

And you can say, "well, you're more than welcome to post about kibble in the raw section", but come ON. Really? You KNOW that's a bunch of BS. That would never happen. I would argue that most kibble feeders would agree that raw is the best way to go, but the reason they don't feed it is because it isn't a good fit for their lifestyle. 

Like I said, I've been active on this forum for a long time. I've seen a lot of shizz go down. I hate that our kibble community has shrunk in size and become so much less active. And I really hate that the reason for that is likely because of this very debate.


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## meggels

Amen, Richelle.

I've only been here like two years, but I remember the kibble section being so much more active when I first started...


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## Dude and Bucks Mamma

PDXdogmom said:


> This is a touchy subject CorgiPaws. Thank you for putting yourself out there and taking the time to post your thoughts.
> 
> I realize that raw feeders often think a switch to raw may help a dog with chronic problems. They would like to feel comfortable suggesting that in the dry/canned section.
> 
> On the flip side, would raw feeders take offense if a kibble feeder responded in the raw section in a thread about a dog having really hard time handling raw. Could a kibble feeder suggest that raw doesn't work well for all dogs and maybe the OP would better serve her dog by feeding it a high quality kibble or dehydrated food; that sometimes a person's belief system might need to be put aside for the well-being of the dog?
> 
> Something to think about.


Personally, I have no problem with a dog being put back on kibble if it is having issues with raw. Do I think other options should be tried first? Yes, but sometimes maybe a dog will just be better off on a high quality kibble. So no, I wouldn't take offense if everything had been tried and nothing was working.

Xellil is right. I know that when I do scan the kibble section (I like to keep up on all of the recall info and I still think both sections should have a designated recall sticky!) I want to jump in and recommend raw all the time. The reality is that I don't. I hardly ever post in the kibble section. Every time a raw feeder posts in the kibble section, a kibble feeder has to say something and I think that, because we put up with this on a daily basis, we raw feeders can be quick to become defensive and can be touchy. I know that, for me, it is 100% as a result of having to defend my way of feeding on a daily basis. Is it fair for the raw feeders? No. We shouldn't have to defend the way we feed our dogs just because the majority don't do it. Is it fair to the kibble feeders? No. We shouldn't be so quick to get angry that someone doesn't want to hear about raw. 

I am at the point now where I will say my piece as far as what I would do if I were in the OP's situation which would obviously start with raw of some sort since I am a raw feeder and contribute what I know about kibble in that situation.

I feel very unwelcome in the kibble section even if I don't post anything at all. I feel like, even if I say nothing about raw at all that people will still see my post and think negative things about me just because I am a raw feeder. I like to read the kibble section all the time because more of my friends, family, and acquaintances feed kibble and I feel like I need to learn more about kibble because so many of my friends and family feed crap kibble (Pedigree, Iams, Purina, etc) and I am usually the one they come to when they want to change kibbles. I wish I felt more welcome in the kibble section for that reason alone. 

I will use Javadoo as an example. I just learned this morning that Javadoo is a kibble feeder. All this time I thought Javadoo was a raw feeder albeit a less active member. That is how little I am in the kibble section. Do I care? No. Does it change my opinion about Javadoo? No. I know that most, if not everyone on this forum is here for their dog(s)' health and shouldn't that be what matters?

I personally hate how unwelcome the raw and kibble feeders make each other feel.


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## CorgiPaws

I just want to make it clear: I'm NOT saying its ok to bombardment the kibble section, or that raw feeders have a pass to be rude. But, when a shiney new member comes along who hasnt mentioned being unwilling to consider raw, I really see no harm in mentioning it. Not pushing it. Not ganging up. Not looking down on. Mentioning. 
I am in agreement that when someone says "no raw" its disrespectful to jump straight to recommending it. I mean, come on... Did you not read the post?! 
I think some dogs can't be healthy on kibble. I know this because I had one. But, there are still boundaries and limitations that need to be respected.


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## MollyWoppy

I tend to agree rather strongly with Richelle. We use to have some great members who happened to be kibble feeders here, but they have mostly all left. Almost every single kibble feeder here uses top of the line, the absolute best kibble you can get. I personally know a few that have left because they have got really annoyed at the term 'death nuggets' when they feel they are feeding their dogs a great diet. Oh, and things like it is just laziness if you don't feed raw. 
It is such a shame to lose those people, I miss them, and going by the numbers on the kibble forum, it is something that needs to be sorted out somehow. 
Respect and tolerance for each other is what I think it boils down to.


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## Mondo

Dude and Bucks Mamma said:


> I personally hate how unwelcome the raw and kibble feeders make each other feel.


We are all advocates for our dogs and do the best we can with our knowledge and resources. Even as far as "knowledge" goes, there is a lot of conflicting information from various "experts". It's hard. With medical issues even moreso than with feeding, at least for me.


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## Herzo

Yes very well put by many. I do think it is sad that the kibble community is not bigger that's why I said it would be bad if raw feeders don't post in it that would make it very lonely there. But I feel sometimes raw is brought up a little to soon and a little to strongly. Calling it names and such just makes people mad and if we can help people get on a better kibble even that is helping there dogs. So if people can play nice it will all work out. If or when people say they don't for some reason want to do raw maybe let it be.

I don't think people mind so much if it is mentioned but it's the way it is or not let go. I found this sight researching kibble but I had already put Turtle on PMR for about 2 days and was so thankful because I didn't know what I was doing but was told to take her off carbs. So I just happened on it and could not have done it without this forum. I have been on for a year and Turtle has been on it the same, well the first of this month.

I also wish that the home cooked section was bigger, I guess I think there is more than one way to feed a dog. I love to hear the crunching of bones when I feed and I did many years ago when I would feed my basset girls there chicken wings. I am pretty sure Turtle will never go back to kibble as I don't want to cause her ears to ever go back to what they were. But and I really hate to say this, I have had to go back and feed Richter and Maddie some kibble as I was to much in a hurry and didn't have my meat built up and counted my chickens before they hatched.
I guess I have to many dogs and so I have put them both back on part time and am having no problems. I am still working on this and hope it will work out at some point because I do think it is the best. But I don't think veggies are the devil and people that feed barf don't bother me at all.

I hope we can all find some sort of middle ground because this is a very great community and I know many of us have been helped by it.


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## wags

As a kibble feeder, on this forum, I have to say, through the years I have been on here, I have seen so many arguments and distastefulness on here, & I have also seen a lot of interjection which has been written in a very kind way and much needed help from all sorts of folk , I have also seen the Raw versus Kibbles Wars and have been in some of them! Also there has been the who feeds the best of the best kibbles wars! And I do personally stick away from the raw section I think I posted twice on their once that Alicia Silverstone was discussed with her veggie kibbles, and I saw a section and wanted advice with training for my one dogs! I do not go on that section though, because my dogs do not eat Raw. Which at times , its hard to not say you didn't down grade your kibble, because of something happening in your life that you just couldn't afford that top of the line or what you thin is the top of the line kibble . As mentioned you do the best you can for the love of your dog! Depending on your financial status, your ability to actually interpreting those ingredient(and yes you do have to Learn what it all means on those lables what it actually means) and your home life situation, What's going on in your environment/around you at the time! Its a matter of preference ,and personal choice ,and of course as always, what works best for your pup! 
I have ,a lot of times, I know, just looked away, from a subject, turned a deaf ear so to say ,and just don't respond to posts, thinking I just don't want to get involved because if I want to interject with something I actually know is correct or feel strongly about, then if an argument erupts because of this, well he** I have 5 kids and a hubby, shoot I can do that right here in my own home, about all types of things haha! So I like to be on a forum where I love learning new things, which my goodness, can't we all! And enjoying some intelligent and FUN chatting ,not bickering back and forth! So yes for me I have walked away for a bit ,and also ,just gone only to certain sections, because I don't want to insult , or hurt feelings, as well as being hurt, or having my feelings upset! "eh its a two way street! Just want to have a nice visit on the forum! As I think we all do! I think we can all handle things said to us in an adult manner! No Ones better than the other!
I believe though that everyone is adult enough to really get along in a very nice way!
Actually after you have been on here for a while you think of the screen names of folks and believe they are truly as valued as family members( gee at least this is how I am) which is a good thing! You really do get to care how they ar, and how they are doing in their lives! Just a true community/village type of feeling!
As for raw versus kibbles and kibbles versus raw, it should be true dog love versus dog like and dog like versus true dog love! which we are all here true dog love(ers)! and people lovers also!
So there is no need for anyone pushing anything down anyone's throat! We are all doing the best we can with the knowledge we have! But really it all comes down to what is best for you, and what works best for your pups! I like many, if I had to change my dogs routine, any of my dogs diets, to make them better, help them through a rough time, to make things more comfortable for them YES,I CERTAINLY WOULD HANDS DOWN! I think we all would! But as to making someone feel uncomfortable, no one ever wants to do this, well that's just wrong! And yes there are people who have left here and felt uncomfortable and belittled! And that's a shame and sad. We can't always make a wrong a right, but we can all darn well try to be polite and not make belittling/hurtful remarks about everything and anything! And for the most part We do very much try to come together on a lot of things on here! Guidance/ Wisdom/Kindness is one of the keys!


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## Mondo

wags said:


> [...] it should be true dog love versus dog like and dog like versus true dog love! which we are all here true dog love(ers)! and people lovers also!


That is really the thing that struck me when I arrived here. This is a forum of dog lovers. People that understand me. lol. We love dogs. I know I run into people on my dog walks, who clearly love their dogs, but not other dogs. Me, I love dogs. The other day just me and the wife were out walking and I saw a fellow I often see with his big golden retriever. We wave in passing because his retriever is a tugger and young and wants to jump all over my boys. But I saw him, it took him a while to recognize me without my dogs (this is very very common lol) -- but I got to play with his dog and pet his dog and he was so appreciative, as was the guy on the other end of the leash.


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## xellil

wags said:


> As a kibble feeder, on this forum, I have to say, through the years I have been on here, I have seen so many arguments and distastefulness on here, & I have also seen a lot of interjection which has been written in a very kind way and much needed help from all sorts of folk , I have also seen the Raw versus Kibbles Wars and have been in some of them!


I had no idea you were a kibble feeder


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## Mondo

xellil said:


> I had no idea you were a kibble feeder


Takes one to know one. 

I didn't know either...


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## xellil

Mondo said:


> Takes one to know one.
> 
> I didn't know either...


And several people feed dry and raw to different dogs. And some feed part kibble/part dry to a single dog. And some people who feed raw also buy treats at the store.

I used to buy gooberlicious because I'm lazy and because the ingredients didn't look too bad. They are cheap and my dogs love them. But I'm afraid to buy them now, regardless of where they are made. That's the stuff i find out here and not in the raw sections.


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## Huginn

Herzo said:


> Yes very well put by many. I do think it is sad that the kibble community is not bigger that's why I said it would be bad if raw feeders don't post in it that would make it very lonely there. But I feel sometimes raw is brought up a little to soon and a little to strongly. *Calling it names and such just makes people mad and if we can help people get on a better kibble even that is helping there dogs*. So if people can play nice it will all work out. If or when people say they don't for some reason want to do raw maybe let it be.
> 
> I don't think people mind so much if it is mentioned but it's the way it is or not let go. I found this sight researching kibble but I had already put Turtle on PMR for about 2 days and was so thankful because I didn't know what I was doing but was told to take her off carbs. So I just happened on it and could not have done it without this forum. I have been on for a year and Turtle has been on it the same, well the first of this month.
> 
> I also wish that the home cooked section was bigger, I guess I think there is more than one way to feed a dog. I love to hear the crunching of bones when I feed and I did many years ago when I would feed my basset girls there chicken wings. I am pretty sure Turtle will never go back to kibble as I don't want to cause her ears to ever go back to what they were. But and I really hate to say this, I have had to go back and feed Richter and Maddie some kibble as I was to much in a hurry and didn't have my meat built up and counted my chickens before they hatched.
> I guess I have to many dogs and so I have put them both back on part time and am having no problems. I am still working on this and hope it will work out at some point because I do think it is the best. But I don't think veggies are the devil and people that feed barf don't bother me at all.
> 
> I hope we can all find some sort of middle ground because this is a very great community and I know many of us have been helped by it.


This is exactly where I feel most of the drama comes from. Immediately bashing all dry dog food and calling it "krapple" or whatever other names (humorous as it may be) tends to put people on edge. I am a firm believer in not using name calling (of any kind) to get my point across. When I want someone to take me seriously, I don't curse (although I normally have the mouth of a sailor), I don't blame, I NEVER use the word "you" and a few other various things I have picked up from a couple of English classes (argumentative writing) and a speech class and just working in the retail industry. All of the things I mentioned tend to make the person you are trying to convince more on edge and feel attacked. Not only that, but it makes you seem immature and uneducated, though the complete opposite may be true. I feel that many of us let our passions get in the way, this is when we run into problems. 
I firmly believe that what works for some might not work for others. Do I believe that in most cases PMR is the best choice? Yes, I do. Do I believe that dogs can still thrive on other options? Why yes, I do believe that too. I am even ok with _some_ grain inclusive formulas, as long as the dog isn't showing an allergy and it doesn't show up in the first three ingredients. There is not always one clear, defined solution to a problem. Many problems can be solved with multiple solutions, it depends on the situation. I do believe it is ok to post an opposing idea once in a while, but to say "you should do this and ONLY this" and continue to try to push the person when they have clearly said "no thank you," well that is just crossing a line. Not just a line on this forum, or whatever section it was in, but a personal line. It just seems like there are a few people who act like pushy car salesmen when it comes to raw. . . seriously "no means no."


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## GoingPostal

As with anything, take the advice you want and ignore the rest, it's just a forum. I think some people need to grow some thicker skin, I feed my dogs both raw and kibble (1 raw, 2 kibble) and I've never felt attacked or looked down on for it, I don't even feed a "high end" or grain free kibble. There was a lot of similar whining/arguments on the ferret forum I'm on, which is pro raw, but I spent years reading on there before I fed raw and didn't have any problem. People were there to help when I was ready to switch and just as helpful when I had questions on kibble. I fully understand most people don't want to deal with raw, or can't afford it, or whatever and that's fine, millions of dogs do great on kibble, even terrible brands.


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## chowder

wags said:


> As a kibble feeder, on this forum, I have to say, through the years I have been on here, I have seen so many arguments and distastefulness on here, & I have also seen a lot of interjection which has been written in a very kind way and much needed help from all sorts of folk , I have also seen the Raw versus Kibbles Wars and have been in some of them!


There have been some Raw vs Kibble Wars since the forum started. It used to bother the heck out of me, and there have been times that I also have taken a break from the forum. But I've always come back because I've missed everyone! The kibble and canned section used to be huge and it is a shame that so many have left. I try to continue to post in that section when I see a new post. 

I try not to get involved in the feeding wars and usually just steer clear of them. Not every diet works for every dog just like every human diet doesn't work for every human. Some people would take great exception to the way I feed my dogs. They get cottage cheese and other dairy products - because they absolutely LOVE it, it helps Rocky poop, and he has no problem at all digesting it. They get 100% canned meats like rabbit and bison in addition to raw food because I can't find those at local stores and it's cheaper for me to get it canned. And if we travel, I pack some Orijen kibble because they are still able to eat kibble every few days just fine. They've never had a problem with switching back and forth between raw and kibble and I want to keep them that way in case I'm ever away from them unexpectedly and someone else has to care for them. 

I don't have any problem with people feeding high quality kibble and canned to their dogs any more then people feeding Quaker oatmeal to their kids. You have to trust some companies to process your food unless you make all your own food from scratch ( and I mean EVERYTHING). If you research the best dog food company you can, there's no reason anyone should be made to feel guilty over feeding it to their dogs.


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## Liz

Everyone starts somewhere. I think we have almost all fed not so good kibble. Hopefully we learn and do better and better for our pets. I am on several forums for specific breeds and holistic care/natural rearing and this is one of the mildest, most easy going sites. If the mention of raw upsets people so much that they leave then forums in general must drive them crazy. I hesitate to recommend other forums just because of how militant and hard they are even though they have good info. Yes we need thicker skins. I like to go on the dry/kibble section because I have people I know and people who buy pups from me who may feed kibble and I like to stay informed as to what is good and new out there. It is not the most welcoming area. Yes, the raw section has had people go back to kibble when transition was too difficult or too stressful. Sometimes a dog just needs to get some weight back on and the owner needs to collect themselves to try to transition correctly. I do not find that offensive in the least even when it is posted on the raw section. I think it is nice to know what is going on and that they just need a break. Others have switched back due to financial issues - again I have never felt they were judged. 

What I have seen in the last year or so is that raw people tend to get more pushy in light of serious health issues that they have seen resolved through feeding raw. The other hot spot is inappropriate ingredients - honestly that should make kibble feeders upset also. Allowing nonsense posts stating that absolute garbage in some kibble is okay would annoy me to no end if I fed kibble. Many people don't know better and if a study is quoted no one dares to ask any questions about said study. I am truly sorry some people feel very defensive over what they feed. Maybe because I make such "outlandish" choices overall in my life I am used to being on the fringe. I think you should be comfortable with your decisions and another's opinion should not be so insulting. Listen, learn and take what you can from these posts. Raw feeders though, should also refrain from negative bywords for kibble and other terminology that can be deemed insulting. I love this forum. :shocked::wink:


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## KittyKat

I'd like to chime in that I think me, and many others who started in the kibble section... now feed raw. So we are not leaving the forum, just switching sections.


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## tem_sat

I have read this thread and I understand, however, tell me what the "politically correct" response is to the following hypothetical post in the Kibble Section:

"I have a Bulldog who won't stop scratching. He is starting to get rashes on his chest. He has yeasty ears and feet. What should I feed him?"

I personally consider PMR, Raw + Combo, Home Cooked, Canned, Kibble as various ways to feed your dog. I am not trying to be defensive, however, would it be acceptable to respond to a post such as the Bulldog example, "Dear Poster, I would strongly suggest that you look into home cooking for your dog's issue." To me, that is my recommendation as I would at the very least suggest home cooked over kibble if I am required to not mention PMR.


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## Scarlett_O'

tem_sat said:


> I have read this thread and I understand, however, tell me what the "politically correct" response is to the following hypothetical post in the Kibble Section:
> 
> "I have a Bulldog who won't stop scratching. He is starting to get rashes on his chest. He has yeasty ears and feet. What should I feed him?"
> 
> I personally consider PMR, Raw + Combo, Home Cooked, Canned, Kibble as various ways to feed your dog. I am not trying to be defensive, however, would it be acceptable to respond to a post such as the Bulldog example, "Dear Poster, I would strongly suggest that you look into home cooking for your dog's issue." To me, that is my recommendation as I would at the very least suggest home cooked over kibble if I am required to not mention PMR.


I was wondering the same thing.

I tend to(if ask the question that you just posed) put something like "What are you currently feeding? There are a few good grain free kibble options, also a good idea to try a totally different protein then you are currently feeding.(The suggestions would very depending on what you are currently feeding.) 
And I would also suggest looking into raw(or home cooked although it take more time, thought and prep then Prey Model Raw), I feed all of my dogs that way, including my 2 who had horrid allergies and only did "ok" on processed foods."

But if we cant suggest raw any more at all.......


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## tem_sat

Scarlett_O' said:


> I was wondering the same thing.
> 
> I tend to(if ask the question that you just posed) put something like "What are you currently feeding? There are a few good grain free kibble options, also a good idea to try a totally different protein then you are currently feeding.(The suggestions would very depending on what you are currently feeding.)
> And I would also suggest looking into raw(or home cooked although it take more time, thought and prep then Prey Model Raw), I feed all of my dogs that way, including my 2 who had horrid allergies and only did "ok" on processed foods."
> 
> But if we cant suggest raw any more at all.......


I will go 1 step further and say...

(yes, this does touch on Re's choice of wording in her post in the Raw Section)

It is "narrow-minded" to not give what you feel is the *BEST* advice to a poster who has an issue with their dog, regardless of the section in which you are responding. It may need to be toned down, however, I think we all have seen posters who are currently feeding top of the line kibble and still have major issues where the only thing they have not tried is home cooked or a version of raw.

Sorry in advance if I have offended anyone, but that is my position.


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## xellil

I'm sorry, but I'm not gonna stop suggesting it. Maybe I'll get banned. I never go into threads that say "tell me if X or Y food is better." But if someone says their dog is sick, I'm going to suggest it. if someone says corn is good, I'm going to argue (and where is mythbuster, I kind of miss him - I'd love to tell him his Royal Canin 's great qualitiy control doesn't seem to be working). 

i didn't remember Jen, or I wouldn't have posted there. I didn't realize she'd tried everything. But if I had a dog with severe allergies, I think I'd be willing to try another form of raw, or home cooked - rather than Science Diet (which is also killing dogs, by the way).

I don't think I've ever, nor will I ever, butt in on a conversation discussing the quality of different dry foods and say" you all are idiots you should be feeding raw." Or even talking about a switch for dogs who are getting upset digestive systems, although with that great link greyshadows posted I think EVERY dry feeder ought to know about it.


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## tem_sat

Maybe it's best to just ask.

Does the suggestion of PMR or BARF exclusively belong in the Raw Section or will suggestions of commercial raw, dehydrated raw, home cooked, and combo (supplementing kibble with raw or cooked meats) be allowed in the Kibble Section?

I truly think this is silly and we should just focus on being polite and respectful and not limit good information that has been successful in helping our pets.

Added: I frequent a forum where PMR or Raw is considered a 4 letter word. You do not want the Kibble Section to get to that point.


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## Caty M

I dunno. I'm just not gonna post there anymore. Some members have made it very clear they do not want raw mentioned there at all, so, if I can't give my opinion I just won't post. I don't think I ever did it in a rude or condescending way and I've always given kibble options too (I try to stay up to date with it, since my cats are on half kibble..). But I no longer feel welcome.


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## Mondo

tem_sat said:


> Maybe it's best to just ask.
> 
> Does the suggestion of PMR or BARF exclusively belong in the Raw Section or will suggestions of commercial raw, dehydrated raw, home cooked, and combo (supplementing kibble with raw or cooked meats) be allowed in the Kibble Section?


When I first arrived here, one of my first posts was in the Raw Feeding section mentioning BARF, which is all I had been familiar with up to that time. I got "corrected" that I was in the wrong forum. I checked the address bar and saw "raw feeding". It was confusing and off putting to me. I stuck around, but my initial reaction was to leave .. it seemed a bit over bearing. And surprising to me that BARF was not considered "raw feeding".


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## xellil

Mondo said:


> When I first arrived here, one of my first posts was in the Raw Feeding section mentioning BARF, which is all I had been familiar with up to that time. I got "corrected" that I was in the wrong forum. I checked the address bar and saw "raw feeding". It was confusing and off putting to me. I stuck around, but my initial reaction was to leave .. it seemed a bit over bearing. And surprising to me that BARF was not considered "raw feeding".


I don't know if I saw your post, but I saw a similar post to someone else and I kind of cringed when i read it. Not sure if he stuck around. I agree, we can all read the "today's posts" and see everything. It shouldn't matter where someone puts it, especially someone who has never been here before.

I got one of my threads moved recently. Apparently I put it in the wrong spot


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## Caty M

I will agree with Liz though that this is a very "mild" forum. I've been completely ripped apart on both a breed specific and a general dog forum for my choices in raising my dogs as naturally as possible.


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## chowder

xellil said:


> I don't know if I saw your post, but I saw a similar post to someone else and I kind of cringed when i read it. Not sure if he stuck around. I agree, we can all read the "today's posts" and see everything. It shouldn't matter where someone puts it, especially someone who has never been here before.
> 
> I got one of my threads moved recently. Apparently I put it in the wrong spot


I actually just go to the "today's posts". I can't remember the last time I looked at where a post was actually posted at. It doesn't matter to me one squat where people stick their posts. The only thing that bothers me is the tone of voice and the words used. 

If someone in the kibble section is having a problem with their dog, I don't see anything wrong with saying "If you can't seem to clear up his problem with a higher quality brand of kibble, he might be having a problem with processed foods. You can always pop over to the raw and homecooked section and people there will be more then will to help with a different diet".

That being said, I wish homecooked was included in raw or had a bigger link. I don't think ANYONE can figure that one out!


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## CorgiPaws

I'm going to be honest. 
I get we're all trying to help, and that's fine. But when someone explicitly says they are NOT going to do raw, suggesting it isn't helping, it's annoying and off-putting and makes people leave. As much as raw feeders have their safe haven on this forum, so should kibble feeders. On other forums PMR feeders are made to feel they are literally killing their dogs with all that dangerous raw meat and bones. We are out to be ignorant people that risk their pet's life and wellness for the raw feeding crown. How do some of you not see this is EXACTLY how many of us have made the kibble feeders of this forum to feel? 
I have NO problems politely suggesting they look into home cooking or raw, AS LONG AS they haven't already said they will NOT. At that point, seriously, back off. 

I GET that most of you are trying to help. I AGREE it should be allowed to be mentioned, but I do NOT understand how people don't see that being offensive, condescending, and totally disrespectful is NOT helpful. It's hurtful, and in the end, you run the members off, and we can no longer help their animals. I wish people cares less about their "I FEED THE BEST!" egos, and would just help people. 

Being allowed to tastefully and respectfully suggest they consider something else, and pushing raw/homecooked while bashing kibble IN THE KIBBLE SECTION is rude and inconsiderate. And calling it "krapple" (seriously, where did this stupid word come from?) over there, is plain disrespectful. 

When I started this thread, I wasn't expecting it to be picked apart. We are all adults.... I think... is "be polite, respectful, and understanding" really that complicated of a request?


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## xellil

Caty M said:


> I will agree with Liz though that this is a very "mild" forum. I've been completely ripped apart on both a breed specific and a general dog forum for my choices in raising my dogs as naturally as possible.


you should join the weenie dog forum I used to be on when I first got Snorkels. Those folks are ALWAYS happy, and alot of them "talk" in dog's words with bad spelling and everything. 

I really liked those folks and they were all very nice to me, but after a few months I had to leave because it was like living in Sugarland.


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## tem_sat

CorgiPaws said:


> When I started this thread, I wasn't expecting it to be picked apart. We are all adults.... I think... is "be polite, respectful, and understanding" really that complicated of a request?


My apologies for picking apart your thread, however, I understood that this was the topic of the post:

"Can raw not be mentioned at all in the kibble section?"

Being polite, respectful, and understanding applies throughout the forum.

I will do my best not to mention anything other than kibble in the kibble forum, as requested.


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## CorgiPaws

tem_sat said:


> My apologies for picking apart your thread, however, I understood that this was the topic of the post:
> 
> "Can raw not be mentioned at all in the kibble section?"
> 
> Being polite, respectful, and understanding applies throughout the forum.
> 
> I will do my best not to mention anything other than kibble in the kibble forum, as requested.


That's not what was requested. 
At all. 
My point was people shouldn't get all bent out of shape when its brought up in a respectful manner. We are just trying to help. I am defending everyone's place to mention raw. I am not telling you not to do it. Mentioning raw in the kibble section has improved the quality of life for countless pets. It saved Grissoms life. 
On the flip side, its not always done respectfully. Sometimes it is done after OP states raw is not an option, or done so forcefully, in a tone or with words that are offensive or degrading towards kibble feeders. That's not OK. It needs to stop.


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## tem_sat

CorgiPaws said:


> That's not what was requested.
> At all.
> My point was people shouldn't get all bent out of shape when its brought up in a respectful manner. We are just trying to help. I am defending everyone's place to mention raw. I am not telling you not to do it.
> On the flip side, its not always done respectfully. Sometimes it is done after OP states raw is not an option, or done so forcefully, in a tone or with words that are offensive or degrading towards kibble feeders. That's not OK. It needs to stop.


Now I understand your point. Thank you for clarifying.


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## Georgiapeach

Maybe there could be a Sticky posted in the kibble section (titled: If You Can't Find a Kibble That Works - or something like that) that suggests alternatives to kibble, such as raw, BARF, homecooking, etc.). That way, members can choose to look at it, w/out it being forced on them. Just a thought.


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## SaharaNight Boxers

I like that idea. Or what if it was a sticky like try this (raw) for a month or something?


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## Herzo

I guess I really don't understand why people can't just be respectful as corgipaws has suggested. And like Mondo say's I think we can all see it's someone new, give them a break. I know it took me a while to figure things out on here. I'm in the, I don't think it's always wrong to mention raw or home cooked in the dry canned section, it is very much how it is brought up.

I know there are things I disagree with people on here about. Just don't always say anything as it's just not that big of a deal to me.


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## Makovach

SaharaNight Boxers said:


> I like that idea. Or what if it was a sticky like try this (raw) for a month or something?


In a boxer forum I used to belong to, they had a 90 day raw challenge. The raw feeder mods were there alot more to help with any questions and coach people in the right direction and help with problems that may arise. I thought it was a nice thing to do because there were alot of people who had been thinking about raw, but never took the dive. Or people who were just at a loos with kibble and needed to find something their babies did good on. As I remember (its been a few years) alot of the people that took the challenge stayed with raw, Some it didnt work for and/or they droped out of the challengewere continually helped to find a kibble that worked for them.

Back on topic. 
I don't think it should be hard to fallow the rules. Suggest, dont bombard. Don't suggest if they say they will not do it. Don't push the issue. Seems pretty simple to me.


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## SaharaNight Boxers

I know one reason when I first suggested not everyone liked it because I made it sound like "Raw cures all!" kind of thing which turned some people away. I definitely say you should take it easy and be open.


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## wags

Herzo said:


> I know there are things I disagree with people on here about.


We can all agree to disagree and disagree to agree! Its like in the manner/tone it is written, or is that taken/read! Somethings that are innocent come across not the way to the person reading it, and its not the intention of the person writing it to be offensive! and their are intentional posts that are innterprtued just that way! Just have to keep an open mind ,and try to relate anything/everything said on here as if it was the way you wanted it written or heard! Anyone can PM suggstions as well !


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## Yorkie967

SaharaNight Boxers said:


> I know one reason when I first suggested not everyone liked it because I made it sound like "Raw cures all!" kind of thing which turned some people away. I definitely say you should take it easy and be open.


And here's what I also have a problem with. Raw advocates say things like dogs only need raw and no need for vegs or fruits because they didn't eat back then. Well, man I don't think had a cobb salad or french frys with his dinosaur kill 65 million years ago. We all have evolved to include other diets that have no doubt have made us healthier, stronger, live longer. But we also have junk and processed food that do the opposite so there are options you choose to live your life.


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## DaViking

Herzo said:


> I know there are things I disagree with people on here about. Just don't always say anything as it's just not that big of a deal to me.


+1

Isn't it like that for everything in life? Commenting on everything would make you crazy. If I see inaccurate, untrue or far fetched claims and statements in the raw section I rarely jump in. Sometimes I can't help myself but usually I stay away. Jumping in would mostly create noise and defeat the purpose of this forum, to learn and understand how to feed or dogs an optimal diet.


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## xellil

Yorkie967 said:


> And here's what I also have a problem with. Raw advocates say things like dogs only need raw and no need for vegs or fruits because they didn't eat back then. Well, man I don't think had a cobb salad or french frys with his dinosaur kill 65 million years ago. We all have evolved to include other diets that have no doubt have made us healthier, stronger, live longer. But we also have junk and processed food that do the opposite so there are options you choose to live your life.


Well, actually we say dogs don't need fruit/veggies because they don't. Many people have been feeding only meat/bones/organs for a decade or more with very healthy dogs. My dogs haven't had a fruit/veggie in over a year.

They can obviously eat them but can only absorb them if they are broken down beforehand so they can be digested.

Lots of folks feed fruit/veggies and I think if a dog is not getting a proper carnivorous diet they might add some nutrients the dog would normally get from meat/bones/organs if they are broken down so they can be digested.

My cousins are on that paleo diet - eat like a cave man. Or some such. It's not a bad way to eat. We have evolved to eat french fries but we really don't need them, nor do they add much to our overall health. Same with dogs and veggies.


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## xellil

DaViking said:


> +1
> 
> Isn't it like that for everything in life? Commenting on everything would make you crazy. If I see inaccurate, untrue or far fetched claims and statements in the raw section I rarely jump in. Sometimes I can't help myself but usually I stay away. Jumping in would mostly create noise and defeat the purpose of this forum, to learn and understand how to feed or dogs an optimal diet.


I think it would help!! If something is truly far-fetched or crazy, you should say something  There are some things I just can't help addressing.

Of course, now that I am jobless I have alot more time to yak here. It's mostly a time thing.


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## 3Musketeers

I'm going to have to agree that sometimes people come a little strong, especially to the new (kibble feeding) members. 
There's nothing wrong with mentioning raw, and politely suggesting it. Especially if their dog is sick and raw is an easy (or the best) solution to it. Unfortunately, Not everyone is open to raw, others can't afford it in their area, or they just don't have the space for it, etc. I'll admit I'm a little guilty of not linking this forum to some fellow kibble feeders, don't get me wrong, I love it here (although I lurk most days now), out of all the dog food forums, this is probably the best one out there, but I have seen some simple threads about finding better kibble or solving a health problem turn into a war about promoting raw, and how dare they not consider it. 

Remember, raw feeding is usually a new concept to them, it doesn't always stick right away. Some people think raw-feeders are just totally nuts because of the brainwashing of the kibble industry (Heck, I used to be one of those waaay back then). Some people just can't stand the ick factor, all the blood, (kidneys OMGtheysmellsobadIhatethem), the huge spread of misinformation such as the bacteria, it's not easy to just disregard the information you've been told your whole life (even if it is a lie/exaggeration) just because 5-10 passionate people tell you it's a lie. Others simply just can't afford it (remember meat prices aren't super cheap everywhere) or don't have the required space. Bombarding these people usually does more harm than good.

The way I see it, if they are feeding Iams, Puricrap, Yuckanuba, Poison and Bits, or any of those, a switch to a high quality kibble should be applauded, not looked down upon because they didn't go all the way to raw (I'm pretty sure I have seen it happen). Also, try and remember when you used to feed those foods unknowingly, you can receive helpful feedback, but posts such as "ewww yuckanuba is terrible, don't feed that sh*t to your dog" don't really accomplish much. Sometimes they get taken the wrong way and the person feels hugely offended (especially because they came looking for advice, specifically because they do not know), and they received a response which feels like a bashing more than anything meaningful.
I know we raw feeders don't mean harm in the posts we say, but sometimes the passion-meter explodes and there's a huge mess all over the threads, and it scares the newcomers.

Needless to say this forum is sooo much better than those yahoo groups, and some breed-specific forums, dear lordy, some of those needed to be avoided like the plague. They just love to rip newcomers apart if they don't follow their little cult-like ways or share their opinions.


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## xellil

I think we are better now!


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## DaViking

xellil said:


> They can obviously eat them but can only absorb them if they are broken down beforehand so they can be digested.


Case in point. I can now choose to go into a discussion about the lack of a processing plant nearby when the eurasian wolf hits a wild blueberry patch or I can take Chips for a walk and some socializing in the park.


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## xellil

Try feeding a dog no blueberries for 20 years and see if he croaks from lack of some nutrient. I suspect blueberries like some other soft fruits might already be broken down and any opportunistic animal will eat whatever they can in the wild. Personally, i've not seen any wild animals but omnivores eating the plums and peaches that fall from our trees. Not even wild dogs.

But you are right - i should have said veggies/grains. 

Have a nice walk!


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## wolfsnaps88

Ohhhh my. 

To ease the tension, here is a picture of Dozer eating wild growing blackberries. 










I think he just likes the taste of them. I don't know why else he would want to eat them. I have to fight him for the good ones.

ETA: He was kibble fed when I took this picture. I think this year he will still raid the bushes even raw fed.


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## xellil

They are tasty! Snorkels has been eating poop lately. She thinks that is tasty, also.


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## xellil

Oh, and i forgot - We had bushes in indiana with red berries and both snorkels and one foster dog went nuts over those berries. Hubby finally built a little fence around them because Snorkels would just gorge herself. Rebel has never shown any interest.

We have a plum tree and some peach trees now. I bet Snorkels will go nuts over those too. She was trying to eat horseapples the other day, and those are nasty - no one eats them, man or beast. Rebel I'm sure will ignore it all.


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## wolfsnaps88

Snorkels is "special" 

Some dogs just really like fruit. And some dogs *cough cough Hunter cough* would not touch fruit if it was covered in brown gravy. I will never understand it.


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## kathylcsw

I give my dogs little pieces of fruit as a treat sometimes. They both really like berries and pears. I know it isn't part of their "natural diet" but I can't imagine a little junk food now and again will hurt them.


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## xellil

I do feed my dogs bananas and apples if I am eating them. The sugar's probably not great for them but it's just a small amount.

Parker turns up his nose at bananas. What dogs turns up his nose at bananas? does Hunter like bananas?

yes, Snorkels eats pretty much anything but i haven't noticed her eating poop before. And twice in the past two days she's found some old dried up poop (not dog poop) out in the pasture and loved it. I actually think it's horse manure from when there was a horse out there last year. you are right - she is "special" in that she's a food idiot


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## wolfsnaps88

None of my dogs will eat a banana. Sargeant and Hunter usually politely take whatever I offer them and then spit it out. Dozer just looks at me like "You aren't serious, right?"

I have a lot of rabbits parading about my yard. I have caught Dozer and Sargeant either rolling in or munching on the rabbit poops. I have decided to blame future breakout of worms on those darned rabbits.


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## DaViking

xellil said:


> Try feeding a dog no blueberries for 20 years and see if he croaks from lack of some nutrient.


I expect more from the food than just to prevent the dog to keel over. Not feeding something won't give you an answer. There are millions and millions of cats and dogs out there that does absolutely amazing on kibble, canned food or home cooked barf. All these food types adds nutrients that are not a (major) part of a wolfs diet yet there are no scientific dispute what so ever that (most) of these ingredients are taken up and utilized in the body in a beneficial way (you can always pick out some controversial ingredients) Now with raw, is it a full and appropriate diet? Done with knowledge and care, absolutely. Is it the ultimate diet? I think not, far from it in my opinion. Is it a great alternative and quite possibly the savior for thousands of dogs with various issues where complex and processed food might be the culprit? Yes without a doubt. Is feeding raw always a "safe bet"? No, there are food safety and nutrient considerations to make too when feeding raw.

Soooo, would adding blueberry extract to the Dog Chow my mother in law fed her 18 year old Cocker add a cpl of years to his life? No probably not. Would he have benefited on a day to day basis from various nutrients that are not a major part (or at all) of the wild wolf's diet? I absolutely believe so, Dog Chow or not.


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## Yorkie967

xellil said:


> Well, actually we say dogs don't need fruit/veggies because they don't. Many people have been feeding only meat/bones/organs for a decade or more with very healthy dogs. My dogs haven't had a fruit/veggie in over a year.
> 
> My cousins are on that paleo diet - eat like a cave man. Or some such. It's not a bad way to eat. We have evolved to eat french fries but we really don't need them, nor do they add much to our overall health. Same with dogs and veggies.


Are you really serious? you don't think fruit/veggies do us any good? I'm total red meat eater and love my steaks on the rare side but I know millions who have turned their life around by becoming complete vegans, no carbs or gluten-free diet. These are some the modern diets that have added and helped humans today so if your cousins thrive on a paleo cave man diet that's great for them. But many people for some reason have many food allergies and can only eat certain foods. 

The human body is built to survive and function with not a lot but that doesn't mean adding fruit and vegs won't help. In fact japan is ranked #1 in the world for being the healthiest country according to WHO(world health org) because they eat the most fruits and vegs.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/774434.stm

1. Japan Japan is known for producing some of the longest living individuals in the world. And what can some of these long lived individuals and an entire country with impressively long lives be attributed to? A big part of the health here comes from the healthy diet rich in fish and seaweed. And the government sponsors exercise programs too. The Fukushima terrible events did affect part of population’s health, but this didn’t actually make the country less organized when it comes to the Health Care system.

Read more at: http://www.healthfiend.com/weeklytop/top-10-healthiest-countries-world/
Copyright © HealthFiend


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## xellil

People are not dogs. Dog's digestive systems don't resemble ours at all. They don't need fruit, berries, or grains. They need only meat, bones, and organs. Their stomachs have a very high pH and their digestive tract is extremely short compared to ours. We have a long digestive tract because it takes alot of digesting to break down vegetables. Dog's don't have that ability. They are made to dissolve bones and meat quickly.

The palio diet includes berries and stuff that grows wild. I just don't think it includes corn and foods that are planted. i know it definitely has fruits and vegetables in it but I don't know enough about it to say exactly what. It's not just meat. 

Japanese people are getting fatter and Western diseases like heart disease and diabetes are getting worse and worse as they eat more like us. Yes, fish and rice are a great food. They just need to stay away from french fries. There use to be no fat Japanese people. I went to a Chinese restaurant for a long time where I got to be friends with the owners and they ate pretty much nothing they fed us fat Americans. They had fish head soup and plain rice.

There was a study done on the Inuit in the 20s, before they were Westernized. They had no heart disease or diabetes. They lived pretty much 100% on seal blubber and meat. 

People can be very healthy vegetarians. Dogs can't. The two just can't be compared.


----------



## Yorkie967

1st of all Japanese eat more than fish & rice, it includes a lot of fruits, vegs, and soy. 

2nd you have it the other way around. Dogs pH are 1-2, ..humans are around 5-6


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## naturalfeddogs

Yorkie967 said:


> 1st of all Japanese eat more than fish & rice, it includes a lot of fruits, vegs, and soy.
> 
> 2nd you have it the other way around. Dogs pH are 1-2, ..humans are around 5-6


So, are you saying PEOPLE have stronger digestion than dogs? I'm not sure I'm understanding what you are saying.


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## Scarlett_O'

A proper light/no process food diet will never be out done be out done by any other type of eating style. 

Dogs are carnivores(thus being able to get everything they need from animal matter, no matter what they are willing to eat). 

Paleo is about meat, veggies, fruit then nuts and berries. (I strive to eat naturally, and am all the healthier for it....on the weeks that I don't fail myself!)


















(Sorry if they are huge....I'm on my phone as just snagged them off google search.)


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## xellil

Yorkie967 said:


> 1st of all Japanese eat more than fish & rice, it includes a lot of fruits, vegs, and soy.
> 
> 2nd you have it the other way around. Dogs pH are 1-2, ..humans are around 5-6


You are absolutely right - what I should have said was they are very acidic. A high pH is low acid. I think their pH is normally around 1-2.

Yes, I understand they eat more than rice and fish. the thing is they used to not eat alot of processed foods. fish are great for omega 3s, seaweed I'm sure has wonderful stuff in it, etc. But they are not dogs. 

Personally, I do much better on a very low carbohydrate diet. But that doesn't meat i eat NO carbs - it just needs to be green veggies, some fruits, nuts, and no grains.


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## xellil

Scarlett_O' said:


> A proper light/no process food diet will never be out done be out done by any other type of eating style.
> 
> Dogs are carnivores(thus being able to get everything they need from animal matter, no matter what they are willing to eat).
> 
> Paleo is about meat, veggies, fruit then nuts and berries.


The healthiest i've ever been was when I was eating similarly to this. I called it Atkins but it's really almost the same. I did it for over 10 years, and then job stress, family health issues, being so far away from home, etc. turned me back to comfort food, which is horrible for me and now I'm in bad shape again. But, you guys have inspired me to start eating the way I should. 

it is NOT, however, the way my dogs eat (as you know!). I had a giant spinach salad yesterday.


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## Yorkie967

xellil said:


> You are absolutely right - what I should have said was they are very acidic. A high pH is low acid. I think their pH is normally around 1-2.
> 
> Yes, I understand they eat more than rice and fish. the thing is they used to not eat alot of processed foods. fish are great for omega 3s, seaweed I'm sure has wonderful stuff in it, etc. But they are not dogs.


You know, I agree but IMO it's in their genetic code also. They can eat high levels of proteins/carbs and not get fat/obese but americans doesn't take much to put on the pounds so although we're humans some are predisposed to diabetes, heart disease, obesity, etc. more than other race.


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## magicre

please let's all remember that the rice eaten by japanese in japan is not a stripped down version of what is sold here.

the white rice we eat is horribly modified, stripped of any goodness it might once had...

the japanese and other orientals with whom i speak....tell me their plates are loaded with veggies, rice, and the meat is a treasure.

in japan, they walk and bike more, too.

we don't.

for someone with a desk job, trying to eat like we live in japan is just, sorry, ludicrous. we don't live there nor do we live where the inuits live.

we live here.

the paleo diet or i don't even want to call it that...the nutrition filled diet is filled with raw, juiced, cooked slightly veggies which make up most of a diet.....especially root veggies....in season...

a little fruit...25 grams per day more or less...

lots of water

mostly gamey meats which many of us do not have access to, so we have to make do with cows, lamb, goat, fish, chicken, etc.

nuts and seeds

plant fats

a diet like this combined with some exercise, as in take a walk....

that's a fantastic way to eat.

call it what you will, but it's a way of eating, not a diet.


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## xellil

As someone told me once - never go down the aisles in a grocery store. Shop around the edges and you'll be doing good.


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## Yorkie967

Alrigh-tee then,..ok well sorry ladies of the raw kibble secion I'll won't post anymore of my jibberish or non-sense.


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## magicre

forgot to mention that the soy most orientals eat is fermented, such as tofu and shoya. 

taste the difference in an american soy sauce and a japanese produced soy sauce..

the soy grown in the USA is of inferiour quality to soy grown around the world.


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## Yorkie967

Ok Ladies of the raw kibble section please allow me post this last thing and you won't hear anymore from me.

It's really not that hard to get the same rice Japanese or asian folks eat. I get my white rice at any of the asian supermarkets in Garden Grove orange county and the ones they all buy right now for the 2012 new crop is Flying Goose and 3 ladies. These 2 brands are better than than the Budda brand. If you're in N Ca you can find Flying Goose at the 99 Ranch stores or other vietnames super markets in the area.


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## magicre

Yorkie967 said:


> Ok Ladies of the raw kibble section please allow me post this last thing and you won't hear anymore from me.
> 
> It's really not that hard to get the same rice Japanese or asian folks eat. I get my white rice at any of the asian supermarkets in Garden Grove orange county and the ones they all buy right now for the 2012 new crop is Flying Goose and 3 ladies. These 2 brands are better than than the Budda brand. If you're in N Ca you can find Flying Goose at the 99 Ranch stores or other vietnames super markets in the area.


ok. i've never found it here.....every once in a while, we eat quinoa, because it's high in protein....

the only reason we don't eat rice is because we don't live the lifestyle that rice demands....but that's just us. 

certainly, you're free to be and free to eat whatever foods you find are healthy for you.


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## Liz

Wow, this is really sad that we can't even discuss differences in how we eat. Different cultures eat differently - I don't know why this is so hard to understand. We don't have the same lifestyles or really eat like natives when we try to mimic what works for others. As Americans we tend to be spoiled and eat only the really rich goodies. That is fine for a night out here and there but doesn't work in the long run. Every culture's food we try to mimic we tend to overdo. My mother is Colombian - they eat lots of fruits, broth like soups and heavy breads. When even a Colombian cooks here it tends to be more comfort food such as their cheesy breads, heavier stews, dense sweets - it is difficult to replicate a foreign lifestyle which is really what makes their diets work. My grandfather had eggs and bacon with biscuits and gravy every morning. He also farmed and worked long and hard seven days a week. I can't mimic his diet as I would be dead in a month - LOL. He lived into his late eighties. There is really no debate that the biggest problem we face is processed food so yes, sticking to the outside areas of your supermarket is healthiest. How can we argue that fresh, unprocessed is not best?
I can't think of a processed food that is actually good for you.  Vegetarian or meatasaurus eat fresh food, unprocessed and your health will flourish.


 Ladies of the raw kibble section - I really don't know what you mean by this and if I were even a tad bit sensitive it would seem kind of mean spirited. JMO


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## DaViking

Liz said:


> Wow, this is really sad that we can't even discuss differences in how we eat. Different cultures eat differently - I don't know why this is so hard to understand. We don't have the same lifestyles or really eat like natives when we try to mimic what works for others. As Americans we tend to be spoiled and eat only the really rich goodies. That is fine for a night out here and there but doesn't work in the long run. Every culture's food we try to mimic we tend to overdo. My mother is Colombian - they eat lots of fruits, broth like soups and heavy breads. When even a Colombian cooks here it tends to be more comfort food such as their cheesy breads, heavier stews, dense sweets - it is difficult to replicate a foreign lifestyle which is really what makes their diets work. My grandfather had eggs and bacon with biscuits and gravy every morning. He also farmed and worked long and hard seven days a week. I can't mimic his diet as I would be dead in a month - LOL. He lived into his late eighties. There is really no debate that the biggest problem we face is processed food so yes, sticking to the outside areas of your supermarket is healthiest. How can we argue that fresh, unprocessed is not best?
> I can't think of a processed food that is actually good for you.  Vegetarian or meatasaurus eat fresh food, unprocessed and your health will flourish.


I like a lot of what you are saying here. Mimicking foreign diets is not easy because of fundamental culture differences. Trust me, I know all about it. I am born and bred Scandinavian, my fiance is from Natick, Massachusetts. I have tried for years to explain why our diet is the way it is and why we are up there with some Asian cultures when it comes to health. She simply don't understand, it's a culture thing. Lol, good quality bread is an important part of the Scandinavian diet so the other day she asked me some questions about bread. I replied something like "if the bread is whiter than me and shelf stable for weeks and weeks it might not be so good for you" I got back a "oh get your food snob ass back down to earth" haha


----------



## Liz

We have a lovely Ukranian family who make the most amazing bread and she often brings me some because I don't much like baking. They are wonderful, grainy, solid breads - rustic is what I think of but they taste phenomenal and you could never buy that. She also says if it is not gone in three days toss it. We are so used to a year long shelf life - it is really gross when you actually stop to think of it. I am glad my ranting is understandable I totally agree with you.


----------



## magicre

DaViking said:


> I like a lot of what you are saying here. Mimicking foreign diets is not easy because of fundamental culture differences. Trust me, I know all about it. I am born and bred Scandinavian, my fiance is from Natick, Massachusetts. I have tried for years to explain why our diet is the way it is and why we are up there with some Asian cultures when it comes to health. She simply don't understand, it's a culture thing. Lol, good quality bread is an important part of the Scandinavian diet so the other day she asked me some questions about bread. I replied something like "if the bread is whiter than me and shelf stable for weeks and weeks it might not be so good for you" I got back a "oh get your food snob ass back down to earth" haha


i like what liz is saying, too.....

that said, we are not our grandparents, nor do i live in soviet union anymore.....we don't walk, we don't do the things we would have done in the mother land....

so even some of the cultural wonderfulness is not applicable to the lifestyle we live now.

my grandparents, even when they came over here with me, did not own a car. yet, my grandfather ate rye bread with chicken fat and raw onion for lunch.

i can't eat that. 

my grandmother used to make this dish that had at least four cheeses in it and butter...OMG. the butter. it was delish....no way could i eat that now.

culturally, i am russian born, but i'm american bred....

even still, when i have friends from other countries come to the usa...they hate the milk, especially the swiss and aussies....hate it....and they are right....well the swiss are....i've been over there recently and oh my, the butter, the cheese, even the yoghurt. it's different. 

if i don't eat a product, it just might be because we do things to our cows that the europeans don't do to theirs.

maybe their cows are grass fed and then milked...maybe their chickens eat bugs and run free....

i buy butter from denmark...because it's so much better than ours.

i'm on the hunt for soy free eggs.....i have yet to find them...and no, i'm not so close to farms nor am i inclined to go hunting down food...


----------



## magicre

Liz said:


> We have a lovely Ukranian family who make the most amazing bread and she often brings me some because I don't much like baking. They are wonderful, grainy, solid breads - rustic is what I think of but they taste phenomenal and you could never buy that. She also says if it is not gone in three days toss it. We are so used to a year long shelf life - it is really gross when you actually stop to think of it. I am glad my ranting is understandable I totally agree with you.


my grandmother used to grind her own to make bread. it was grainy and wonderful.....pumpernickel and rye bread and whole grain bread.

she didn't turn it into a fine flour.....it had guts, this bread.


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## meggels

I'm pretty much all irish...


taters?


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## DaViking

magicre said:


> i like what liz is saying, too.....
> 
> that said, we are not our grandparents, nor do i live in soviet union anymore.....we don't walk, we don't do the things we would have done in the mother land....
> 
> so even some of the cultural wonderfulness is not applicable to the lifestyle we live now.
> 
> my grandparents, even when they came over here with me, did not own a car. yet, my grandfather ate rye bread with chicken fat and raw onion for lunch.
> 
> i can't eat that.
> 
> my grandmother used to make this dish that had at least four cheeses in it and butter...OMG. the butter. it was delish....no way could i eat that now.
> 
> culturally, i am russian born, but i'm american bred....
> 
> even still, when i have friends from other countries come to the usa...they hate the milk, especially the swiss and aussies....hate it....and they are right....well the swiss are....i've been over there recently and oh my, the butter, the cheese, even the yoghurt. it's different.
> 
> if i don't eat a product, it just might be because we do things to our cows that the europeans don't do to theirs.
> 
> maybe their cows are grass fed and then milked...maybe their chickens eat bugs and run free....
> 
> i buy butter from denmark...because it's so much better than ours.
> 
> i'm on the hunt for soy free eggs.....i have yet to find them...and no, i'm not so close to farms nor am i inclined to go hunting down food...


Absolutely, I agree 100%. Things evolve, but things tend to evolve in all cultures more or less in parallel. Example; Country A 2012 : "Let's take a walk down to DQ to catch the last day of their two for one blizzard promotion, it will only be a 20 mins walk" Country B 2012 : "Let's hit the DQ drive through for the last day of the blizzard promotion" You can say, oh why does it matter, you are getting a blizzard and are screwed regardless! Well, it does matter because that and similar inherited cultural differences makes up for a lot of energy spread out over a year. Not claiming Scandinavians owns the concept of walking places. Just an example of different responses. Is it walking distance, let's walk. Does it have a drive through, lets drive.

Yes, when it comes to dairy there are big differences between Europe and N. America. Don't want to come across as a european a**hole and food snob (I am really not, I'll eat anything short of liver stew!!) but we have a really good European deli/supermarket here in town. It is very pricey but I shop there as much as I can get away with. Groceries can be a touchy subject in our household. Hard to explain to my better half why I spend 12 bucks on a little tube of cod roe


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## Scarlett_O'

meggels said:


> I'm pretty much all irish...
> 
> 
> taters?


No, because we(our ansestors) lived off of potatoes to not starve, they weren't healthy...but not dead either.





(this is what Re is trying to drill into my stubborn, Irish head!!LOL)


----------



## magicre

Scarlett_O' said:


> No, because we(our ansestors) lived off of potatoes to not starve, they weren't healthy...but not dead either.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> (this is what Re is trying to drill into my stubborn, Irish head!!LOL)


and failing miserably LOL


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## Scarlett_O'

magicre said:


> and failing miserably LOL


:lol:

(I actually haven't had a spud for a whole week.....and that's a long time for me!!LOL)


----------



## magicre

DaViking said:


> Absolutely, I agree 100%. Things evolve, but things tend to evolve in all cultures more or less in parallel. Example; Country A 2012 : "Let's take a walk down to DQ to catch the last day of their two for one blizzard promotion, it will only be a 20 mins walk" Country B 2012 : "Let's hit the DQ drive through for the last day of the blizzard promotion" You can say, oh why does it matter, you are getting a blizzard and are screwed regardless! Well, it does matter because that and similar inherited cultural differences makes up for a lot of energy spread out over a year. Not claiming Scandinavians owns the concept of walking places. Just an example of different responses. Is it walking distance, let's walk. Does it have a drive through, lets drive.
> 
> Yes, when it comes to dairy there are big differences between Europe and N. America. Don't want to come across as a european a**hole and food snob (I am really not, I'll eat anything short of liver stew!!) but we have a really good European deli/supermarket here in town. It is very pricey but I shop there as much as I can get away with. Groceries can be a touchy subject in our household. Hard to explain to my better half why I spend 12 bucks on a little tube of cod roe


i so know what you're talking about; hence, the butter from denmark. 

i've been a foodie, since we got to this country.....

when i was in zurich....ach, the yoghurt and fresh strawberries and granola...it was so good....and then we walked to our next destination.

the servings are not as large, at least where we were.

of course, in mine grandmother's house.....there was nothing but food....all comfort foods....and plenty of it, along with lots of fresh veggies and fruits.....

i never had mac 'n cheese out of a box. to this day, i haven't. 

i won't even say what we spend on our food per month...but i just can't eat crap.....or frozen foods that don't taste right or fast foods....i cook from scratch, just as i was taught, only healthier...

i don't think you're being a snob....i think you know your foods.


----------



## magicre

Scarlett_O' said:


> :lol:
> 
> (I actually haven't had a spud for a whole week.....and that's a long time for me!!LOL)



so, where ya been? i bet you haven't been home.....


----------



## meggels

I should ask my ma what she ate when she went to Ireland. I'm actually pretty sure I'm meant to be italian :-X


----------



## Scarlett_O'

magicre said:


> so, where ya been? i bet you haven't been home.....


Haha, I have been....I've just been a good girl!:wink:
Well I didn't eat at home at all on Saturday....but that is normal....but also not a single hash for us all week(which is also a normal 3-4x per week....hmm...potatoes!!
:tongue:


----------



## Caty M

DaViking said:


> Absolutely, I agree 100%. Things evolve, but things tend to evolve in all cultures more or less in parallel. Example; Country A 2012 : "Let's take a walk down to DQ to catch the last day of their two for one blizzard promotion, it will only be a 20 mins walk" Country B 2012 : "Let's hit the DQ drive through for the last day of the blizzard promotion" You can say, oh why does it matter, you are getting a blizzard and are screwed regardless! Well, it does matter because that and similar inherited cultural differences makes up for a lot of energy spread out over a year. Not claiming Scandinavians owns the concept of walking places. Just an example of different responses. Is it walking distance, let's walk. Does it have a drive through, lets drive.
> 
> Yes, when it comes to dairy there are big differences between Europe and N. America. Don't want to come across as a european a**hole and food snob (I am really not, I'll eat anything short of liver stew!!) but we have a really good European deli/supermarket here in town. It is very pricey but I shop there as much as I can get away with. Groceries can be a touchy subject in our household. Hard to explain to my better half why I spend 12 bucks on a little tube of cod roe


DQ.. you can tell you're Canadian LOL.


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## DaViking

Caty M said:


> DQ.. you can tell you're Canadian LOL.


lol, their blizzards and shakes are our guilty pleasures  Never trust the meat from Dairy Queen though!


----------



## meggels

Hey we have DQ's in the US too!


----------



## xellil

meggels said:


> Hey we have DQ's in the US too!


they sell different stuff, though. Here in Texas they have DQ Dudes which is a chicken fried steak sandwich. I was surprised when we moved to Indiana and DQ up there had never heard of a Dude.

I try to stay far, far, away from them. Those blizzards are just way too good.


----------



## PDXdogmom

DQ . . . now you're talking! I love to cook and bake; but at the start of every summer I just have to have one peanut buster parfait. I feel less guilty by walking the mile and a half there and back.


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## meggels

When I was in PA they had DQ's everywhere.

Up here in CT we have more Carvel's.


----------



## Scarlett_O'

PDXdogmom said:


> DQ . . . now you're talking! I love to cook and bake; but at the start of every summer I just have to have one peanut buster parfait. I feel less guilty by walking the mile and a half there and back.


Hmmm....I'm the same way, I'll walk, get a cookie dough blizzard, double the cookie dough and use chocolate ice cream rather then vinalla, then I'll freeze and nibble on it all week....and im good for the year!!LOL


----------



## meggels

crud....all this DQ talk. There actually is ONE in the town I live in now.

Now I want a mint blizzard with pb cups & m&m's


----------



## wolfsnaps88

*Eating an oreo blizzard while reading posts.* Hubby brought home some last night as a surprise. Its about a mile from here. We actually don't go there often. Its a rare treat despite being a stones throw away.


----------



## chowder

Scarlett_O' said:


> Hmmm....I'm the same way, I'll walk, get a cookie dough blizzard, double the cookie dough and use chocolate ice cream rather then vinalla, then I'll freeze and nibble on it all week....and im good for the year!!LOL



I had no idea you could order double the cookie dough!! The things I learn on this forum......:biggrin:


----------



## meggels

You can do whatever you want!


----------



## magicre

chowder said:


> I had no idea you could order double the cookie dough!! The things I learn on this forum......:biggrin:


eating plan be damned. i know what I'M having for dinner tonight.

thanks guys.


----------



## wolfsnaps88

I always get double stuff now. They charge you a few cents but its worth it.


----------



## Caty M

Cookie dough, oreo and rolo... YUM. Eight thousand calories of deliciousness. :wink:


----------



## DaViking

Oh boy, what did I start. The calories are flying left, right and center now. I'll take no responsibility for the outcome of this DQ frenzy :biggrin1:


----------



## Scarlett_O'

chowder said:


> I had no idea you could order double the cookie dough!! The things I learn on this forum......:biggrin:


I had no idea either, until a friend picked up an order for 4 of us, and seeing as how I was the only one without any changes he changed it....ordered it as stated above and oh, my!! I shan't ever have a normal blizzard again!!LOL


----------



## magicre

and once again, we go off the beaten path and straight out of the topic LOL


----------



## meggels

Ive never seen rolo blizzards?!??!?!?!


----------



## MollyWoppy

I've never been to DQ, but it sounds like I'm going to have to make a pit stop soon. I'm so lucky that there isn't one anywhere near me.


----------



## CavePaws

magicre said:


> and once again, we go off the beaten path and straight out of the topic LOL


Because DQ is so much more fun to talk about and common ground. ;D Everyone loves them some DQ! I will totally be doubling up on my cookie dough next purchase!!


----------



## Scarlett_O'

CavePaws said:


> Because DQ is so much more fun to talk about and common ground. ;D Everyone loves them some DQ! I will totally be doubling up on my cookie dough next purchase!!


If they fight you just tell them you know they can do it!!:tongue: :thumb:

(I've had to do this across the country after this became my only DQ purchase!!LOL :laugh


----------



## CavePaws

LMAO!

"Double the cookie dough please"
"Sorry, that isn't an option"
"Look dude, I know it's a freaking option. If you don't want documented evidence of doubling my cookie dough, you don't even have to charge me for the double cookie dough - it won't be on the receipt..So it never happened, got me?"
"......Okay ma'am..."


----------



## Scarlett_O'

CavePaws said:


> LMAO!
> 
> "Double the cookie dough please"
> "Sorry, that isn't an option"
> "Look dude, I know it's a freaking option. If you don't want documented evidence of doubling my cookie dough, you don't even have to charge me for the double cookie dough - it won't be on the receipt..So it never happened, got me?"
> "......Okay ma'am..."


That's pretty close to my run in with a DQ person in Colorado!!!hahhaha. :lol:


----------



## dustinshaw98

CorgiPaws said:


> I'm putting this in this section, because in the raw section it won't be seen by the people it most applies to, and i the kibble section it's sure to offend, though that's not at all my intention.
> 
> It has recently been asked: "Can raw not be mentioned at all in the kibble section?" and it got me thinking.
> 
> On one hand, I completely understand that not everyone wants to feed raw. In comparison to kibble: it is messier, more time consuming, and in some cases more expensive. Don't get me wrong, to me it is well worth it, but I don't think that it can be as easily fit into people's routines as smoothly as a lot of raw feeders like to claim. I think that time, space, money, resources, and other things come into play. I don't think people should be made to feel bad for feeding high quality kibble. I don't love my dogs any more or less than I did when I was feeding Wellness! I just found something that makes more sense to me and works better for my pack, and I've made it happen because I'm in a position to do so.
> 
> On the other hand, I understand what it's like to read a post, and know without a doubt that PMR will improve the quality of a dogs life, but feeling like I can't suggest it because it's in the wrong section to do so. I know what it's like to be such a believer in something that *SAVED MY DOG'S LIFE* when kibble was literally killing him. I know what it's like to see that someone is experiencing the same kind of problems I, and so many other raw feeders, have experienced first-hand with commercial pet foods. It is difficult for me, as a true lover of canines, to not share raw with every pet owner I come across, because I know it works. We do't bring it up because we have some kind of evil agenda and think we are the best pet owners ever and everyone else sucks, we do it because if it helps just one dog, it's worth it. In 2009, I posted in the kibble section with NO INTEREST in raw for several months while my puppy wasted away. Had it not been for people educating me in the kibble section about raw, I'm not so sure Grissom would be alive right now.
> 
> 
> I think sometimes the different sections of the forum do more damage than good, because often times if you truly want a solution to the problem, you have to be willing to try something entirely different. This goes across the entire board. I see so many people who are unwilling to try raw, when in reality it could improve their dog's quality of life so much. On the other hand, I've witnessed dogs do awful on raw that have done better when minimal amounts of plant matter are introduced, and wonder if other dogs, whom seem to have issues on PMR, would do better if their owners were more open-minded. Re is a perfect example of someone who kind of broke the barriers of their preferred method of feeding to assist in an ailment their dog was experiencing, and it worked!
> 
> I don't expect everyone to feed raw. I don't expect everyone to want to feed raw. Shoot, there are some days I wonder if I myself will always be in a position to take the time and money I do to feed raw forever! I'd be lying if after hours of prepping, with a garage full of animal parts, and blood up to my elbows and smudged on my face hubby and I wonder how in the Hell we are going to fit this in when kids come into the picture. I wish some other raw feeders would not act as superior as they do, and not degrade kibble feeders for not feeding raw. I see it happen rarely, and it's not OK. We need to be respectful of everyone's abilities and boundaries. We need to be understanding that while raw fits perfectly into our lives, we don't know everyone's situation.
> But, at the same time, kibble feeders, please understand where we're coming from in that we don't get anything out of the time we spend here helping other people, we have no hidden agenda, it't just that sometimes, there isn't a kibble answer, no matter how badly you want there to be. I've seen dogs thrive on raw. I've seen dogs thrive on home cooked. I've seen dogs thrive on kibble.
> 
> We all have our preferences, we all feed what makes sense to us. But I'd love it if we could with open minds, come to the understanding that we all have one thing in common: we love our dogs enough to even spend time somewhere like this.
> 
> 
> Sorry it's so long, I've been MIA for a while. I needed some time away, to sort some things out in my personal life, and recovery from surgery. One of the first threads I read had bickering, and that's where this came from.



Oh god, know what... I keep on inserting myself into threads that are meant for kibble feeders. I hope that, perhaps, a comment or two from me might urge them to try raw. My dog is healthy, abnormally healthy, since I started raw. I use the prey model (no rodents though), just entire chicken carcasses and beef meaty bones. My dog is old, but runs like a puppy! I hope people will, at least, alternate raw and kibble.


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## shellbell

Oh god, why did I open this thread, all of this DQ talk and I was already hungry.....


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## chowder

shellbell said:


> Oh god, why did I open this thread, all of this DQ talk and I was already hungry.....


I think I gained a pound reading this thread. And I didn't even get to eat any DQ :frown:


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## magicre

DaViking said:


> Oh boy, what did I start. The calories are flying left, right and center now. I'll take no responsibility for the outcome of this DQ frenzy :biggrin1:


you are totally responsible for this one. don't even try to get out of it LOL


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## meggels

I must resist the urge to go to DQ tonight...


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## CavePaws

When Indi goes in for surgery on Friday I'm going to DQ it up before I head out to the lake to chill with my dad. I need the comfort food and the support and he will be happily suprised by a blizzard (the man drives into civilization like once a month for food lol) But DQ is right across the street from Indi's vet.  Perfect positioning when I drop off and pick up. Yes I am an emotional eater in times of extreme stress!


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## dustinshaw98

I admire how people expressed their opinions here. I am a raw-feeding enthusiast. So, yes... I'll try not to belittle the choices of others.


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## DaViking

magicre said:


> you are totally responsible for this one. don't even try to get out of it LOL


Damn, I hate having powers like that, guess I have to shell out for a workout video for everyone then :smile: Oh wait... everyone listen, kibble is the true path, run run run. Looooool :heh:


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## BrittanyM

CorgiPaws said:


> I'm putting this in this section, because in the raw section it won't be seen by the people it most applies to, and i the kibble section it's sure to offend, though that's not at all my intention.
> 
> It has recently been asked: "Can raw not be mentioned at all in the kibble section?" and it got me thinking.
> 
> On one hand, I completely understand that not everyone wants to feed raw. In comparison to kibble: it is messier, more time consuming, and in some cases more expensive. Don't get me wrong, to me it is well worth it, but I don't think that it can be as easily fit into people's routines as smoothly as a lot of raw feeders like to claim. I think that time, space, money, resources, and other things come into play. I don't think people should be made to feel bad for feeding high quality kibble. I don't love my dogs any more or less than I did when I was feeding Wellness! I just found something that makes more sense to me and works better for my pack, and I've made it happen because I'm in a position to do so.
> 
> On the other hand, I understand what it's like to read a post, and know without a doubt that PMR will improve the quality of a dogs life, but feeling like I can't suggest it because it's in the wrong section to do so. I know what it's like to be such a believer in something that *SAVED MY DOG'S LIFE* when kibble was literally killing him. I know what it's like to see that someone is experiencing the same kind of problems I, and so many other raw feeders, have experienced first-hand with commercial pet foods. It is difficult for me, as a true lover of canines, to not share raw with every pet owner I come across, because I know it works. We do't bring it up because we have some kind of evil agenda and think we are the best pet owners ever and everyone else sucks, we do it because if it helps just one dog, it's worth it. In 2009, I posted in the kibble section with NO INTEREST in raw for several months while my puppy wasted away. Had it not been for people educating me in the kibble section about raw, I'm not so sure Grissom would be alive right now.
> 
> 
> I think sometimes the different sections of the forum do more damage than good, because often times if you truly want a solution to the problem, you have to be willing to try something entirely different. This goes across the entire board. I see so many people who are unwilling to try raw, when in reality it could improve their dog's quality of life so much. On the other hand, I've witnessed dogs do awful on raw that have done better when minimal amounts of plant matter are introduced, and wonder if other dogs, whom seem to have issues on PMR, would do better if their owners were more open-minded. Re is a perfect example of someone who kind of broke the barriers of their preferred method of feeding to assist in an ailment their dog was experiencing, and it worked!
> 
> I don't expect everyone to feed raw. I don't expect everyone to want to feed raw. Shoot, there are some days I wonder if I myself will always be in a position to take the time and money I do to feed raw forever! I'd be lying if after hours of prepping, with a garage full of animal parts, and blood up to my elbows and smudged on my face hubby and I wonder how in the Hell we are going to fit this in when kids come into the picture. I wish some other raw feeders would not act as superior as they do, and not degrade kibble feeders for not feeding raw. I see it happen rarely, and it's not OK. We need to be respectful of everyone's abilities and boundaries. We need to be understanding that while raw fits perfectly into our lives, we don't know everyone's situation.
> But, at the same time, kibble feeders, please understand where we're coming from in that we don't get anything out of the time we spend here helping other people, we have no hidden agenda, it't just that sometimes, there isn't a kibble answer, no matter how badly you want there to be. I've seen dogs thrive on raw. I've seen dogs thrive on home cooked. I've seen dogs thrive on kibble.
> 
> We all have our preferences, we all feed what makes sense to us. But I'd love it if we could with open minds, come to the understanding that we all have one thing in common: we love our dogs enough to even spend time somewhere like this.
> 
> 
> Sorry it's so long, I've been MIA for a while. I needed some time away, to sort some things out in my personal life, and recovery from surgery. One of the first threads I read had bickering, and that's where this came from.


Very well said


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## BrittanyM

Aww now I want a DQ Blizzard... Banana Split Blizzard OMG Goodness!!! <3 <3 <3 Too bad I'm in class at the moment *sigh*


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## Scarlett_O'

I've been very good!!

Since we started talking about DQ I have noticed all 11 that I drive by on a normal day(in very easy in and out spots) and I haven't stopped at even one!!:wink:

Although a baby sized Abi blizzard with a thing of their chicken strips DOES sound amazing!!!LOL


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## wolfsnaps88

11? What does this say about society? LOL They should make a salad fast food place. I would go.


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## magicre

wolfsnaps88 said:


> 11? What does this say about society? LOL They should make a salad fast food place. I would go.


they did out here and i forget the name of it. started with a 'z'....

and ruby tuesday which closed here recently had an excellent salad bar.

the restaurant kinda sucked, but their salad bar was awesome.

yeah, i wish there were salad bars around here with real fresh produce and olives and all kinds of goodies...that are good for you, not just something to slather onto a salad.


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## Scarlett_O'

wolfsnaps88 said:


> 11? What does this say about society? LOL They should make a salad fast food place. I would go.


Well I DO drive up to 250 miles a day for work!!LOL



magicre said:


> they did out here and i forget the name of it. started with a 'z'....
> 
> and ruby tuesday which closed here recently had an excellent salad bar.
> 
> the restaurant kinda sucked, but their salad bar was awesome.
> 
> yeah, i wish there were salad bars around here with real fresh produce and olives and all kinds of goodies...that are good for you, not just something to slather onto a salad.


There are some "fast food" salad bars in the shopping places in down town Seattle, I see them as I'm serving a couple different banks!:thumb: (Never tried them though, I don't have time to eat a salad.....,well the other drivers wouldn't like it at least!!LOL)


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## magicre

abi, i'm not convinced you would recognise a salad...


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## Scarlett_O'

magicre said:


> abi, i'm not convinced you would recognise a salad...


I would....and if it was made of all dark leafy greens I would like it....if it wasn't, well I would feed it to Mo!!!HAHAHA


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## chowder

wolfsnaps88 said:


> 11? What does this say about society? LOL They should make a salad fast food place. I would go.


We have 'Sweet Tomatoes' here which is kind of an all salad restaurant. But, the last two times I ate there I got horrendously sick afterwards. So, I'm not sure it counts as a 'healthy' alternative. hwell:


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## xellil

i can eat a salad only if it has no lettuce in it.


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## Scarlett_O'

xellil said:


> i can eat a salad only if it has no lettuce in it.


I hate iceberg!!
If I could feed my enemies one thing and one thing only it would be iceberg lettuce!!!LOL


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## magicre

Scarlett_O' said:


> I would....and if it was made of all dark leafy greens I would like it....if it wasn't, well I would feed it to Mo!!!HAHAHA


you dissin' my dog?

do you eat lettuce on those tacos you love?

well, my girl...that is iceberg lettuce.


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## magicre

xellil said:


> i can eat a salad only if it has no lettuce in it.


what is your definition of a salad?


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## xellil

magicre said:


> what is your definition of a salad?


I agree about the iceberg lettuce. It has no nutrition and no taste. I CAN eat it shredded because it kind of mixes in but normally it doesn't come like that in a salad.

I can eat salad with some greens in it. But when I was working, at their salad bar I would get broccoli, cauliflower, sunflower seeds, bell peppers, two kinds of olives, snow peas, and some other stuff similar to that and then put a little spinach on top. It was really good.


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## Sprocket

I dislike most lettuces. ESPECIALLY iceberg. 

I put spinach on every thing, including tacos


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## magicre

xellil said:


> I agree about the iceberg lettuce. It has no nutrition and no taste. I CAN eat it shredded because it kind of mixes in but normally it doesn't come like that in a salad.
> 
> I can eat salad with some greens in it. But when I was working, at their salad bar I would get broccoli, cauliflower, sunflower seeds, bell peppers, two kinds of olives, snow peas, and some other stuff similar to that and then put a little spinach on top. It was really good.


i can dig that. 

i honestly thought you were going to come up with something snorkels like. LOL


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## xellil

magicre said:


> i can dig that.
> 
> i honestly thought you were going to come up with something snorkels like. LOL


HAHA! I bet Snorkels would like it. She just found a spider web under the bathroom cabinet that I missed - it was filled with those giant mosquito fly things - all dead, and she ate them all. Now she can't get the spider web out of her mouth.


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## Sprocket

wolfsnaps88 said:


> 11? What does this say about society? LOL They should make a salad fast food place. I would go.


There is a mobile salad truck (like a taco truck) that parks itself right out side a gym about a block from my house. I LOVE their salads!


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## Scarlett_O'

magicre said:


> you dissin' my dog?
> 
> do you eat lettuce on those tacos you love?
> 
> well, my girl...that is iceberg lettuce.


Wait....what about what dog??


And I love spinach on my tacos, or a nice dark red leaf, or butter lettuce!!:thumb:


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## wolfsnaps88

I love me some endive. I love it with Wishbone Italian dressing (fat free). I get this four pack at Walmart (also in grocery stores). Its called Smart Artisan or something. It has four dark leafy greens it in (purple lettuce, Romaine, Endive, and something else). Its perfect for me. I need to eat those more often. I wish I had some right now (im at work, making a note to pick up some more).

I think they should have a drive through "greens" chain where they serve lettuces and other healthy plant type matter in a convenient way to eat it on the go. They need to invent this. I would eat there all the time. I have no problem changing my eating habits to go green, I am just super lazy and the wilted iceburg lettuce that McDonalds calls a salad ain't cutting it for me. 

(Is ain't a real word? The computer is not telling me to correct it. That's funny.)


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## Scarlett_O'

I think all this lettuce and salad talk is making up for all the DQ talk, although I do think it's funny how no one has come on and said "OMG I MUST have a salad like NOW!!". LOL :laugh:


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## wolfsnaps88

I just did. I want a salad NOW! Scarlett, just drive over here and deliver me some, whats another 1000 miles?


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## Sprocket

I was eating a salad while I read it...does that count? :biggrin:

I'm gonna go have some BnJ froyo now...


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## Scarlett_O'

wolfsnaps88 said:


> I just did. I want a salad NOW! Scarlett, just drive over here and deliver me some, whats another 1000 miles?


Haha, ok, but one vs the many we had about DQ is kinda funny!!:tongue:

And LOL, try 2500.....and in the Cherokee that would cost like a years worth of gas in my work car!!LOL



Sprocket said:


> I was eating a salad while I read it...does that count? :biggrin:
> 
> I'm gonna go have some BnJ froyo now...


Lol, Jesse is making dinner....I'm having taco salad!!;-)


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## meggels

Taco salad counts as a regular salad....right?


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## Scarlett_O'

meggels said:


> Taco salad counts as a regular salad....right?


I hope so!!HAHAHHAHA :rofl:


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## meggels

It's got lettuce...and stuff...


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## Scarlett_O'

meggels said:


> It's got lettuce...and stuff...


Well a tiny bit in mine....mostly spinach!Lol

But ya, I'm calling it a salad, or close enough to to make me happy!!:tongue:


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## magicre

Scarlett_O' said:


> Haha, ok, but one vs the many we had about DQ is kinda funny!!:tongue:
> 
> And LOL, try 2500.....and in the Cherokee that would cost like a years worth of gas in my work car!!LOL
> 
> 
> 
> Lol, Jesse is making dinner....I'm having taco salad!!;-)


with iceberg lettuce?


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