# What can replace chicken bone?



## ubershann (Jul 29, 2010)

I've read in here that the reason to give chicken wings with bone in is to give the dog fiber and keep stools moving. What else can replace chicken bone? I guess more specifically, what's another good source of fiber?


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## JayJayisme (Aug 2, 2009)

Chicken bones. :wink:

Seriously though, bones are also the main source of dietary calcium for dogs so they are pretty essential. That's why a lot of commercial dog food has bone meal in it. But when fed as whole raw bones, there is a huge dental benefit that is unavailable through meals or other "fiber" sources.

You should feed chicken bones ONLY when they are raw and they should always have enough meat on them to force your dog to chew on them rather than gulp them (the amount of meat depends on the size of your dog and its eating habits). Wings are ideal for smaller breeds.


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## DaneMama (Jun 27, 2008)

Bones do not have fiber in them. The minerals within the bone acts as a constipator which binds stool to REPLACE a dogs need for fiber. 

You can replace chicken bones with other sources of bone like turkey or pork. But to replace bone with other actual fiber sources you will have to cross over into the homecooked or kibble section, both of which are not a species appropriate diet.

Why do you ask?


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## ubershann (Jul 29, 2010)

So without feeding bones I shouldn't be feeding raw?


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## jdatwood (Apr 13, 2009)

ubershann said:


> So without feeding bones I shouldn't be feeding raw?


WHY would you feed raw without bones?


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## DaneMama (Jun 27, 2008)

ubershann said:


> So without feeding bones I shouldn't be feeding raw?


If you feed prey model raw or raw meaty bones style, absolutely not. Bones are an essential part of the diet. Even though you only feed a small amount of bone overall, it's not something that can be omitted. You'd see horrible diarrhea first off, but also all the vitamins and minerals provided from the bone would be missing...

You could feed BARF style or homecooked and skip the bones. You'd have to add in rice, corn or potatoes AND a mineral/vitamin supplement to the diet to replace bone. I cannot help you with this style of feeding. But there are some here that can.

You seem afraid of bones...do you mind talking about it? This way we may help you get over your fears and really headed in the right direction!

Good luck with whatever you decide...


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## ubershann (Jul 29, 2010)

jdatwood said:


> WHY would you feed raw without bones?


She doesn't do chicken. Other poultry is questionable. Really don't see that I'll be getting rabbit at an affordable price. 

I'm not planning on doing prey model raw. If it's PMR or nothing then I guess we're headed back to kibble, but I was hoping to keep the raw I've been feeding going.


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## ubershann (Jul 29, 2010)

danemama08 said:


> Even though you only feed a small amount of bone overall, it's not something that can be omitted. You'd see horrible diarrhea first off, but also all the vitamins and minerals provided from the bone would be missing...


I've been giving her raw for the last week or so (no bones) and her poops have been tiny and hard. In fact she had a bit of diarrhea before the raw (she had an upset tummy, which is why I decided to do a few days of raw and ended up just sticking with it) but now she barely seems to poop at all! lol! :biggrin: 



> You could feed BARF style or homecooked and skip the bones. You'd have to add in rice, corn or potatoes AND a mineral/vitamin supplement to the diet to replace bone.


She gets a daily multi with breakfast and dinner. It's Joint Mobility by Wholistic Canine Canine Complete (it's a daily blend of vitamins and minerals called Canine Complete, plus joint supplements). I was adding rice the first few days but stopped because of all the anti-grain info. I'll add it back in though since it seems important. I guess I could try potatoes too, she's never had those. I've also been adding in banana, mainly because she loves them. Figured the potassium wouldn't hurt either


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## bdb5853 (May 21, 2010)

Yes, bones are essential to a raw diet. 

But ... they are only 10% of the diet. I wouldn't give up yet. Especially if she is doing well on it.

Have you tried bashing up a chicken wing with a hammer so it's floppy? She might eat it that way if it was easier to eat.

Some pork bones are edible. What size of dog is she? Pork ribs work for many larger dogs. Also, riblets have edible bone. My Walmart carries lamb breast which has a lot of fat on it, but it is a rack of lamb bones with a little meat. If you trimmed off the fat, that would be great edible bone.

If it came down to stopping raw because she won't eat bones at all, then I'd do a ground mix that was bone heavy (maybe grind chicken necks or backs with some beef or chicken) and feed that on the days when she needs bone.

You CAN do this. Don't give up just because you hit a snag.


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## DaneMama (Jun 27, 2008)

I find it strange you haven't seen diarrhea yet with no bone added in. What kind of dog do you have?

When you say "she doesn't do chicken" that is a classic sign of a picky eater. If you cater to her whims she will walk all over you in other aspects as well. I would use the tough love approach with her. You are the owner and you decide what she eats and when. Eventually she will come around and eat what you choose for her, whether that be chicken bones or whatever. This is personally my opinion on what I think you should do and what the best solution to your dilemma. 

ETA: I would definitely try smashing or grinding up the bones for her and see how she doesn't with that. Sometimes that's all a dog needs to figure out how to eat raw bones, eventually you'd smash and grind less and less until she is able and willing to eat whole bones.


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## ubershann (Jul 29, 2010)

Sorry I guess I should have been more clear. She'll eat chicken, but it gives her horrible diarrhea and other problems. I don't know if I'd go so far as to call it an allergy (I don't like how every eating problem seems to be called an "allergy" now) but it is definitely an intolerance. Turkey is slightly better but not for long. She does best on red meat and I've been adding some pork in because she loves it.

As for the no diarrhea, I guess I'm just lucky? She's full lab, but I don't know if that makes a difference or not. She does have a bit of a sensitive tummy so if diarrhea is the usual result then I'm thanking my lucky stars :smile: We've had zro diarrhea, not even loose stools. In fact there's so little poop at all, and it's so hard, that sometimes I wonder if she's constipated. Doesn't seem like it though.


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## Ania's Mommy (Feb 8, 2009)

The chicken you have given her, was it raw? Or in kibble form?


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## jdatwood (Apr 13, 2009)

Ania's Mommy said:


> The chicken you have given her, was it raw? Or in kibble form?


and how long did you feed it for? What type of chicken? Skin on?


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## ubershann (Jul 29, 2010)

She's had it all. I first noticed when she had chicken kibble. Raw chicken had the same effect. Boiled chicken doesn't seem quite as bad but after a few days it's squirt city. She just doesn't do well on chicken. That's not really up for debate. My question is about what can replace chicken bones. 

Sorry, I appreciate all the info offered, but I don't want to feel forced into feeding her something that she clearly does not do well on. Right now she seems to be doing very well on the meat I'm feeding her, I just want to make sure she's getting everything she needs in the long term.


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## ubershann (Jul 29, 2010)

jdatwood said:


> and how long did you feed it for? What type of chicken? Skin on?


She's had it for as long as 3+ weeks. She's had breast and thighs. No skin.


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## jdatwood (Apr 13, 2009)

ubershann said:


> Sorry, I appreciate all the info offered, but I don't want to feel forced into feeding her something that she clearly does not do well on. Right now she seems to be doing very well on the meat I'm feeding her, I just want to make sure she's getting everything she needs in the long term.


Nobody is trying to force you into doing anything. Just educate you on something you're learning about. Collectively we have a LOT of experience helping people with these issues. 

If you won't feed chicken because you believe she has an intolerance (I'd wager she doesn't though if properly introduced to it) you can feed just about any other kind of bone that's not weight bearing. 



ubershann said:


> She's had it for as long as 3+ weeks. She's had breast and thighs. No skin.


There's the problem right there. When starting out they need HIGH bone content like chicken backs. There's too much meat on the breast and thighs. 

The bone acts as a "constipator" essentially binding things up til their system adjusts.


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## JayJayisme (Aug 2, 2009)

Well, as far as raw chicken goes, I wouldn't expect anything less than diarrhea if it was fed without bone. It's highly unlikely that your dog has an allergy to chicken, particularly to raw chicken. But if it was boneless, diarrhea would be a normal outcome.


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## ubershann (Jul 29, 2010)

Ok, thanks for all the help but I guess we're at the end of the road here. Her first chicken was in kibble form. It wasn't until much later she had it in any other form. And she has no diarrhea on ANY other meat. No bone in any of them. 

I realize no one is forcing me to feed her anything but when I have repeatedly stated she does not do well on chicken (not just diarrhea, that's just what I notice first) and all I get back is to feed her chicken, well it's not very helpful. I was asking for a solution that would ensure my dog is getting a balanced diet overall. If that can not be accomplished without chicken then I guess raw is not the choice for us.


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## jdatwood (Apr 13, 2009)

I haven't seen anyone tell you that it's chicken or nothing??

I said in my last post that if you feel you cannot feed chicken just feed other bone in meats that aren't weight bearing bones.

There is a plethora of options that aren't chicken. 

Again, we're just trying to help you understand things...

Back to your original question... "what can replace chicken bone"

rabbit bone
turkey bone
fish bone
pork bone
deer bone
antelope bone
llama bone
rat/mouse bone
etc
etc
etc


ANY bone from an animal that's not a major weight bearing bone (like cow bones)


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## ubershann (Jul 29, 2010)

jdatwood said:


> "what can replace chicken bone"
> 
> rabbit bone
> turkey bone
> ...


Thank you that's what I've been wanting to know. Some of them will be out of my price range, but I'm working on getting a lower price at my local store for ground turkey wings. She can only do turkey for a short bit before the bad effects kick in but then I'll switch to something else. 

Is it correct that canned mackerel has the bone in it? And as far as pork bone goes, which cuts should I be looking for that have small enough bones to eat? Do I need to hammer those out too so they're small enough?

I would love to get some salmon with bone because of the Omegas. With fish bones I don't need to worry about her choking on them?


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

ubershann said:


> Ok, thanks for all the help but I guess we're at the end of the road here. Her first chicken was in kibble form. It wasn't until much later she had it in any other form. And she has no diarrhea on ANY other meat. No bone in any of them.
> 
> I realize no one is forcing me to feed her anything but when I have repeatedly stated she does not do well on chicken (not just diarrhea, that's just what I notice first) and all I get back is to feed her chicken, well it's not very helpful. I was asking for a solution that would ensure my dog is getting a balanced diet overall. If that can not be accomplished without chicken then I guess raw is not the choice for us.


i'm sure we sometimes sound like a broken record.....and apologies if you're frustrated.....

chicken is usually the most easily digested of all the proteins...and many times, dogs do not do well with kibble chicken but do fine with unenhanced chicken in small amounts to start.

having said that, sounds like you've given it the old college try and what more can be asked of you....you really are trying so very hard...

if chicken and turkey are a problem for your baby.....you still want to try to go with intro'ing a lean meat...so my suggestion would be pork loin in the beginning...if she handles bits of that, move on to a pork rib....not the baby backs but the bigger ones, especially since she's a lab....
rabbit should do well, too...

venison especially if you know any hunters...

what about quail or squab? think she'd have a problem with that, too?

for bone, you have lots more choices than people with little dogs....for sure...


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## whiteleo (Sep 7, 2008)

This one is stubborn, my dog cannot eat anything with beef, cooked that is, kibble, steak etc. but he certainly can eat RAW beef.

When he did eat beef in the cooked form he had horrible diarreah and foaming of the mouth. I too thought he couldn't eat beef in the raw form but as it turns out, it is hios favorite meal.:biggrin: Chicken is the cheapest of all raw meats to feed.


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## luvMyBRT (Mar 8, 2010)

Have you tried turkey? Turkey necks may be an option. :smile: 
Also, if you joined the co op you can have access to Willamette Valley Meat Co. They have some great selection and good prices. I actually just placed an order to pick up tomorrow.


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## DaneMama (Jun 27, 2008)

If your dog doesn't do well on chicken it's not the end of the world, but thanks for clarifying that she has an intolerance to it and not the picky eater thing. Chicken isn't the most ideal protein source out there anyhow.

Maybe try Cornish game hens? They are related to chicken but different. Or possibly quail?

All fish bones are safe to feed. They are actually quite soft and easy to digest. I would try and get fresh frozen fish rather than canned. 

Depending on what kind of dog you have you may need to pound out the pork bones, but it wouldn't hurt to do so initially and gradually decreasing the smashing. 

Like others have said, we are all just here to help in any way we can! Sometimes it can come off as a bit pushy but I can say with all honesty that is not our intent. 

Keep us posted on your progress.


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## ubershann (Jul 29, 2010)

Thanks for the suggestions! She's been getting mostly beef, with pork added sometimes. She had oxtail last week for a couple days and seemed to like it, but wasn't crazy for it. Turkey is ok for a day here and there, so I'm going to see if I can get turkey wings ground up at my local store (they're like Whole foods so they're pretty willing to do stuff like that) for a decent price. One of my customers said she gets ground turkey wing from them for $.99/lb (different store, same chain) but she buys 100lbs at a time and I can't fit that much in my fridge/freezer. I'll see what I can do. 

I'm still missing something on the pork bones. From what I see at the store the bones all look pretty big, definitely not even close to chicken bones. Is there a particular cut of pork that has smaller bones in it? 

On a good note, the new pup, who arrives Sunday, is currently eating a chicken based kibble so I won't have the same ordeal when I feed her. I'd much rather be able to feed chicken since it's so much cheaper! But Tiki is such a well behaved dog I suppose I can get over her eating issues :wink:


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

since you're in portland, you can get all kinds of stuff at willamette market....i think we've covered that one..they've got rabbits and goat and lamb....

and you've joined the co op and there are options you'll have there, with pricing that is better than retail...

so if chicken is out and turkey is an iffy....you have plenty of other choices...especially since she's a lab and can eat larger rmbs......

it really is a shame you can't feed chicken, but check out the willamette pricings....i think you'll be pleased....


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## DaneMama (Jun 27, 2008)

For the pork we only get pork ribs regularly. I wasn't much of a fan with pork neck bones.

I would say your dog would be able to crunch through them just fine.


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## bdb5853 (May 21, 2010)

Our walmart carries a box of "pork riblets". I think Farmland makes them. They are strips of meat with bone in them. Have you ever had riblets at Applebees? They are like that. The bone is definitely edible. 

Whichever meats you choose, make sure to read the label and pick meats with less than 100mg of sodium per serving. LOTS of meat is enhanced with a salt solution to add tenderness and also weight to the meat. 

You can also do pork ribs or beef ribs. The ends have a cartilage that is edible and your dog can certainly get a good workout ripping off the meat and gnawing the bone.


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## ubershann (Jul 29, 2010)

danemama08 said:


> I wasn't much of a fan with pork neck bones.


For some reason, even though turkey necks and other bird necks don't bother me a bit, when I read pork neck all I could think was "eeeewww!" Lol!


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## whiteleo (Sep 7, 2008)

There is a solution added to the farmland product, not a fan of anything added to the meat for my carnivores diet.


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## bdb5853 (May 21, 2010)

whiteleo said:


> There is a solution added to the farmland product, not a fan of anything added to the meat for my carnivores diet.


I have a box of them right now in front of me. Sodium is 50mg. There are no artificial ingredients in the ones I have.

I agree - I would not buy enhanced meats.

Here they are and the nutritional info. They are a good buy, kind of fatty, so I trim that off - but they are a great source of edible bone.

http://www.farmlandfoods.com/products/extra-tender-pork-riblets.html


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## RawFedDogs (Jun 16, 2008)

bdb5853 said:


> They are a good buy, kind of fatty, so I trim that off - but they are a great source of edible bone.


You don't have to worry about fat in a dog's diet. Fat is not harmful to a dog like it is humans. Fat is utilized by a dog the same way carbs are utilized by humans. Energy.


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## bdb5853 (May 21, 2010)

RawFedDogs said:


> You don't have to worry about fat in a dog's diet. Fat is not harmful to a dog like it is humans. Fat is utilized by a dog the same way carbs are utilized by humans. Energy.


I agree with you. But my dog is 5 pounds. If I let him eat all the fat on a chunk of the pork riblets, it would be 50% of his meal. Does that makes sense? So I trim off most of the big hanging chunks. There is still a lot of fat in the pork, in the marbling and around the edges. 

But yes, if I had a large dog and I was handing him a big strip of riblet, I'd leave the fat on.


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## RawFedDogs (Jun 16, 2008)

You're right. I don't have a lot (any) experience feeding small dogs but it appears to me if you feed him the whole riblet over time, he would get the same porportion of fat that a big dog would eating several riblets all at once. I may be full of it. :smile:


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## bdb5853 (May 21, 2010)

RawFedDogs said:


> You're right. I don't have a lot (any) experience feeding small dogs but it appears to me if you feed him the whole riblet over time, he would get the same porportion of fat that a big dog would eating several riblets all at once. I may be full of it. :smile:


Yes, that makes sense!


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## RachelsaurusRexU (Sep 4, 2010)

danemama08 said:


> If your dog doesn't do well on chicken it's not the end of the world, but thanks for clarifying that she has an intolerance to it and not the picky eater thing. Chicken isn't the most ideal protein source out there anyhow.
> 
> Maybe try Cornish game hens? They are related to chicken but different. Or possibly quail?


I know this thread is a couple weeks old but I was searching and found it. I just want to make a correction. Cornish game hen IS chicken. It's actually the same breed of chicken as the big broiler/roaster chickens you buy in the grocery store, the Cornish Rock, which is a cross of Cornish and White Rock. The only difference is the age at which they are slaughtered and the amount of feed they are given. Cornish game hen (there is actually nothing "game" about them) are about 5 weeks old when slaughtered, while the big broilers are slaughtered around 8 weeks old. Cornish Rocks (also known as Cornish cross or Cornish X) have been selectively bred over many years to grow very large very quickly, hence the huge difference in size between the 5 week old and 8 week old birds. Limiting the CGH's feed also plays a big role in the size difference.


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## DaneMama (Jun 27, 2008)

RachelsaurusRexU said:


> I know this thread is a couple weeks old but I was searching and found it. I just want to make a correction. Cornish game hen IS chicken. It's actually the same breed of chicken as the big broiler/roaster chickens you buy in the grocery store, the Cornish Rock, which is a cross of Cornish and White Rock. The only difference is the age at which they are slaughtered and the amount of feed they are given. Cornish game hen (there is actually nothing "game" about them) are about 5 weeks old when slaughtered, while the big broilers are slaughtered around 8 weeks old. Cornish Rocks (also known as Cornish cross or Cornish X) have been selectively bred over many years to grow very large very quickly, hence the huge difference in size between the 5 week old and 8 week old birds. Limiting the CGH's feed also plays a big role in the size difference.


I learn something new everyday!!! Thanks :wink:


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## RachelsaurusRexU (Sep 4, 2010)

You're welcome  Learning rules!


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

i knew they were in the chicken family...but i didn't know they were just baby chickens..

thanks.


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## RachelsaurusRexU (Sep 4, 2010)

No problemo!


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## ubershann (Jul 29, 2010)

RachelsaurusRexU said:


> Cornish game hen IS chicken...(there is actually nothing "game" about them)...


That's really cool to know! Thank you! I actually bought into the "game" part and thought maybe they were more along the line of pheasant. Had no idea they were just tiny, younger chickens :smile:


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