# Help getting started... a ton of questions!



## bridget246 (Oct 26, 2011)

First off.. I'm borderline vegan. So the whole raw thing is going to be very hard for me. But what is harder for me than that is my reasons behind not eating meat. I don't agree with the way the animals are treated and I'm afraid that is going to cause some serious health issues. So... that makes it a little hard to buy my dog food that isn't free range or in some way kept in a humane way. When I dislike something I normal vote with my money. I'm going to need some help on where to get my meat. Lots of farmlands near my house and I guess trying there first might be easiest. I just need to know what I'm in need of.

1) Why is kibble so bad for dogs? I'm almost shocked that even the best kinds are not highly recommend for a dog. I'm assuming it is because the meal is premade and there is really no truly good premade meals. 

2) When not cooking the meat are we introducing problems of microbial pathogens like Salmonellas, Escherichia coli to our dogs? I'm going to clean up the area I make the meat in so I know the humans are not going to be at risk.

3) Chicken, beef, and deer. How much of what? What about Geese. We have a lot of Canadian Geese here and going raw means I will also get my hunting licenses. I'd be interested in knowing what I could hunt and feed to my dog and what I should avoid. 

4) I never see fish listed under the raw diet. Why is that? I can catch plenty of catfish and crappie and fish like these pretty easily. 

5) I hide my dogs food all around the house and in dog food toys that she loves. I don't think raw is going to go so well in these toys. Anything I could use them for?

6) Veggies and other things needed to help my dog out? Whole egg? 

7) Why not cook it? 

8) How do I know that I'm actually doing everything correctly? I'm fairly new to dog health and this forum, books and research has taken far away from my comfortable vet recommendations.

9) Last question. My dogs coat is really soft and shiny. I love her coat. Will raw change it?


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## AveryandAudrey (Sep 20, 2010)

Hey there, so I'm a vegetarian close to vegan, have been for years, and was vegan for a year. I do not use animal tested products, I Do not wear leather/fur, I am fully committed to animals living happy and healthy and well, LIVING. That being said, my dogs are both on the raw diet. I eat healthy, and strive to be healthy and I believe my dogs should be too. Their inner body is as a wolf, wether you have a chihuahua or a dane. And wolves eat fresh, raw, uncooked, un seasoned meat. So why should my dog be any different than that? My husband, and dad, uncle all hunt. I say if an animal has to die let it be by being an animal that had freedom and a life n the wild and then died. Not one raised for nothing more than to live in a cage until slaughtered. So I clean the hunted animals and get a portion for my dogs. I do have to buy some meat from stores but I try to keep it minimal. I dont have alot of time but I know others will help to answer your questions. Welcome, and props to you for looking into the raw diet.

#3, Deer, Elk, moose, buffalo, Duck, Rabbit, Turkey. I'm sure geese is fine too but I dont know for sure.
#7, Cooking heat destroys vitamins and minerals that then need to be re added in.
#9, It will only glisten ever more!


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## Mondo (Dec 20, 2011)

There are lots of very experienced raw feeders here and lots of resources on the Internet. I'm new to raw feeding, about 1 month in but have done a lot of research before and since. Here are a couple of links that should help, the first especially regarding kibble:

Myths About Raw: Most dogs do well on kibble, so is raw necessary?
Welcome to the Myth Pages!


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## naturalfeddogs (Jan 6, 2011)

bridget246 said:


> First off.. I'm borderline vegan. So the whole raw thing is going to be very hard for me. But what is harder for me than that is my reasons behind not eating meat. I don't agree with the way the animals are treated and I'm afraid that is going to cause some serious health issues. So... that makes it a little hard to buy my dog food that isn't free range or in some way kept in a humane way. When I dislike something I normal vote with my money. I'm going to need some help on where to get my meat. Lots of farmlands near my house and I guess trying there first might be easiest. I just need to know what I'm in need of.
> 
> 1) Why is kibble so bad for dogs? I'm almost shocked that even the best kinds are not highly recommend for a dog. I'm assuming it is because the meal is premade and there is really no truly good premade meals.
> 
> ...


Glad you are getting started in raw! Here are some answers to your questions, although you will get lots from everybody here.

1)IMO, kibble is bad for dogs in that it is cooked. Cooked to such a high degree that the nutrition is lost. Therefore, nutrition has to be added back in in the way of artificial vitamens and fillers of which are useless to a dog.

2)Salmonella etc is not a problem for dogs because they are designed to handle that. Strong stomach acids and the fact that raw digests much faster than kibble so nothing has time to set up anyway.

3)Start with chicken backs, one at a time gradually increasing as they have steady good poops. Look at preymodelraw.com for the getting started guide. Wonderful info! Geese should be fine, but someone here will know more. Stay away from salmon from the pacific, and stay away from wild boar and bear. They carry a parasite that I can't remember the name of right off but I know someone will tell you!

4)I would say the only good fish to feed as far as nutrition ic concerned would be the oily ones like salmon, herring, sardines etc... Just not the ones from the Pacific. If you would rather you can feed a fish oil supplement to make up for it instead of feeding the fish itself.

5)I don't think I would hide raw around the house. if you forget about it, you may not like the smell it leaves! (been there, done it on accident)!

6)IMO, veggies are not needed by dogs. Their bodies just don't really process them. They get all they need from meat, bones and organs.

7) Sometimes you can LIGHTLY cook something to help get dogs to learn to eat organs, but really not recomended as it cooks out the nutrition. Some do some cooking for their dogs, and it is better than kibble for sure. But unless it is for a specific reason it defeats the point of "raw".

8)Your dog will let you know by poops/any throw ups if you need to go back a step.

9)Her coat will change, for the better! You may see a lot of shedding at first due to the "detoxing". The new coat will be shinier and even softer. If you like her coat now, give it about two weeks and you will be so surprised!


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## DaneMama (Jun 27, 2008)

bridget246 said:


> First off.. I'm borderline vegan. So the whole raw thing is going to be very hard for me. But what is harder for me than that is my reasons behind not eating meat. I don't agree with the way the animals are treated and I'm afraid that is going to cause some serious health issues. So... that makes it a little hard to buy my dog food that isn't free range or in some way kept in a humane way. When I dislike something I normal vote with my money. I'm going to need some help on where to get my meat. Lots of farmlands near my house and I guess trying there first might be easiest. I just need to know what I'm in need of.


Well...no premade food is made from animals that are raised in a humane way. Even the high end foods don't source from local farmers, they may use "naturally raised" animals but that really means nothing per USDA standards. So by feeding commercially produced kibbles...you've been supporting big business farming. 



> 1) Why is kibble so bad for dogs? I'm almost shocked that even the best kinds are not highly recommend for a dog. I'm assuming it is because the meal is premade and there is really no truly good premade meals.


Thats kinda like asking why processed foods are bad for humans. You sound like you're pretty health conscious yourself, would you eat processed, premade food your whole entire life? 

Not to mention kibble in any form is not species appropriate for a dog. Even though they are considered opportunistic carnivores and they can survive off most anything, their first choice in foods would be meat and bone. Not grains or potatoes which is what most kibbles are made of. 

It doesn't provide dental benefits at all...80% of dogs over the age of 3 who eat kibble have at least some form of dental disease. Which leads to other diseases of the major organs of the body like the heart, liver and kidneys. Kibbles have starches which feed yeast which is why so many kibble fed dogs have ear, skin and coat issues. The list could go on and on about why kibble is bad for dogs.



> 2) When not cooking the meat are we introducing problems of microbial pathogens like Salmonellas, Escherichia coli to our dogs? I'm going to clean up the area I make the meat in so I know the humans are not going to be at risk.


These bacterias can be present in raw meats. But they don't pose a risk to dogs because their digestive systems are more than capable of handling these pathogens. Their stomach acid is highly acidic which kills these bugs. Using common sense when it comes to clean up and hygiene is important. Remember that these pathogens are also found in kibbles quiet often.



> 3) Chicken, beef, and deer. How much of what? What about Geese. We have a lot of Canadian Geese here and going raw means I will also get my hunting licenses. I'd be interested in knowing what I could hunt and feed to my dog and what I should avoid.


I suggest you read through the link I have below. Especially the getting started guide as it will help you with most of these questions:

Dedicated to proper carnivore nutrition - Prey Model Raw Feeding for Dogs & Cats

You can feed most anything to a dog. Things to avoid is a short list: 

-weight bearing bones from larger animals like cows or bison
-fish from the pacific northwest needs to be frozen for 2 weeks before feeding
-wild boar/bear meat should be tested for trichinella (parasite) before feeding
-oddly cut bones like Tbones as they can cause blockages



> 4) I never see fish listed under the raw diet. Why is that? I can catch plenty of catfish and crappie and fish like these pretty easily.


I don't know where you're reading about raw...but most people here feed fish! See above for the only stipulation in regards to fish.



> 5) I hide my dogs food all around the house and in dog food toys that she loves. I don't think raw is going to go so well in these toys. Anything I could use them for?


Eating raw meaty bones is as or more stimulating as "hide and seek" with their food. They have to think about how to eat, hold things down with their paws, rip/shred/tear meat with their teeth. If you want to still play hide and seek for mental stimulation, hide treats around instead. 



> 6) Veggies and other things needed to help my dog out? Whole egg?


Some people feed veggies, who usually don't recommend feeding more than 10% of their overall diet in veggies. Veggies also have to be processed before feeding like mincing or smashing them to help with digestion.

A lot of us don't feed veggies at all without issues. 

I'd say everyone here who raw feeds gives whole eggs on a regular basis! 



> 7) Why not cook it?


Simply put: Because it doesn't need to be. Plus many nutrients are lost by way of cooking...or processing in any way for that matter. Feeding whole raw foods is best...even for us humans! 



> 8) How do I know that I'm actually doing everything correctly? I'm fairly new to dog health and this forum, books and research has taken far away from my comfortable vet recommendations.


Most of us have been raw feeding for years without anything but success. We are following a tried and true method that has been used for a long time, even one that vets agree with. You just have to find a vet that really understands dog's nutritional needs and physiological make up. Most vets learn about canine nutrition in ONE class in vet school in which they're taught from industry backed research. Its quite convenient actually. Teach the vets to believe in foods that the industry has researched and produces, then turns around and makes a profit on. 

Keep the questions coming!


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## bridget246 (Oct 26, 2011)

I couldn't find chicken backs. But what about this place? https://mypetcarnivore.com/index.php?option=com_virtuemart&page=shop.browse&category_id=36&Itemid=130

They have whole chickens for 3.50.

Also finding the following:

http://columbus.craigslist.org/grd/2770539534.html


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## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

bridget246 said:


> I couldn't find chicken backs. But what about this place?


I get alot of stuff from My Pet Carnivore. Their animals are farm-raised in Michigan. Everything is great, but can be pricey. 

I think it's alot easier for people like me who could practically eat a steak while it's still mooing to feed raw meat to a dog. 

There are alot of people here who are vegetarian who do what is best for their pets, no matter their personal feelings. I really admire them.

Edited to add: Don't get the whole chickens if you don't like messing with meat. Seriously. I HATE cutting up whole chickens. And theirs come with head and feet still attached. I buy those separately. Just makes life easier.


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## bridget246 (Oct 26, 2011)

xellil said:


> I get alot of stuff from My Pet Carnivore. Their animals are farm-raised in Michigan. Everything is great, but can be pricey.
> 
> I think it's alot easier for people like me who could practically eat a steak while it's still mooing to feed raw meat to a dog.
> 
> ...


Point taken. It just seemed like the whole chicken would be cheaper. I know my dog isn't suppose to be a vegetarian. It is a fact I looked up on before getting a dog. But your right, I probably shouldn't buy things that I have lots of cutting until I get use to dealing with the site of meat.


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## shellbell (Sep 24, 2011)

I can't find chicken backs where I live, and I used chicken quarters to transition my dogs. Worked great. Just cut the skin and fat off at first, and then slowly start leaving it on.


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## bridget246 (Oct 26, 2011)

I'm going to go shopping for my dogs first raw diet tomorrow. I'm guessing things like chicken breast and stuff are out of the question? I wish I had a guide with me. The columbus co op page is pretty much dead. Any meat that has been cut by a butcher is probably also a bad idea, right? Bones alright or leave them out?


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## wolfsnaps88 (Jan 2, 2012)

Hi there. I started a blog and here is one of my entries:


Why I feed raw:


I still feed kibble, don't get me wrong. I wish more people knew the truth about dog and cat food and all the horrible things pet food companies do to keep people in the dark. Flashy marketing campaigns, bright colorful bags (and colorful foods with artificial colorings.....*shudder*)

Let me start by telling you what is in a lot of foods. Corn. CORN! Now let me ask you this. Do you think your dog or cat would ever ask you for corn if they could talk? DO they eat corn in the wild? Do wild coyotes, foxes, wolves, bob cats or cougars raid corn fields? I mean, its defenseless, they could take as much as they want? No of course you don't see this because corn is not a natural food source for them.

But we have all heard about corn so I am not going to bore you with it. Bottom line, I don't care what anyone says, corn has no business in carnivorous pet food.

Neither does soy for that matter. Soy is a cheap way to boost protein. It is not biologically appropriate for dogs or cats and has been known to cause allergic reactions.

One product I don't see many people talk about is menadione sodium bisulfate. It is a synthetic Vitamin K. Now, you need vitamin K. If you don't get enough, it can cause blood clots and intestinal problems. However, this menadione sodium bisulfate is nasty stuff. In high doses, it can be lethal. LETHAL. And you are feeding this to your animals every day. Now try saying that about raw food. You can't. High doses of chicken or beef or...mice....not lethal. A lot of well informed people are not even aware of the menadione stuff and its usually towards the bottom of the ingredient list but here are just a few things to be aware of:

It can weaken the immune system
It can build up in animal tissue (this has been proven)
can disrupt the calcium in the body

Honestly, there is so much about this stuff that is bad...check out the dogfoodproject.com site to learn more.
There are natural sources of Vitamin K. This menidione stuff is just cheaper. 

How about things like the questionable word meat. When you see the word meat followed by meal....RUN. If they are using meat meal and are not even explaining what animal it came from, it could be ANYTHING. It could be diseased cattle, raccoon....ROAD KILL. Euthanized dogs and cats. It is not unheard of for these things to be put into pet food. So make sure it tells you what kind of animal they use in the food.

There really are so many reasons to stop feeding kibble. Lets say you want to do whats best. High quality, human grade foods with absolutely no red flags (bad ingredients) are a FORTUNE. I have four mouths to feed and two of them are BIG MOUTHS. To spend 50-60 bucks for one bag of food that won't last my dogs a month is a lot of money. I think a dollar a pound for pet food is a good price. Or better yet, free. I hunt. I have donated some of my kills strictly to my pets.


Think of kibble as a cereal. It is nutritionally balanced and ok to eat but would you want to eat it every day? Day in a day out, for life? Boring. The hard dry texture would drive me crazy after a while. And it is so dry. I don't think dogs/cats drink enough water to compensate. Now raw food, there is a different story. Chock full of natural vitamins and minerals. When you cook kibble, you kill these things from the high heat needed to make kibble what it is. Then they have to put man made vitamins and minerals back into the food after they cook it. Seems like an unnecessary step. They have to do this to make it balanced. With raw, its all in there. No need to add anything. Higher moisture content and fun to eat. Dogs love to gnaw. There is a reason for this, to keep their teeth healthy. And it comes from gnawing on bones. REAL raw, meaty bones. Have you ever seen how happy a dog is eating bone marrow?

One last thing about coloring used in pet foods. Dogs and cats do not care what color their food is. They go by smell. If it smells good, they will eat it. So why then, do foods like Kibbles and Bits have multicolored kibbles in the bag? To get HUMANS to buy it. We are a very visual species. Marketing spends billions of dollars to get your attention and most of the time its your visual attention. Bright colors, fancy packaging...all to get you to buy the product. So what if its not actually good for Fido or Kitty to eat Yellow 40 or Blue 12. As long as you buy it, they don't care. And as long as it doesn't kill your pet RIGHT AWAY, they can't be blamed.

So to sum up, many kibble companies are horrible. The ones that are ok are expensive. And raw is the way to go.


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## DaneMama (Jun 27, 2008)

You want to get chicken that has bones in it, like thighs or leg quarters or whole birds. Chicken breast is fine but as long as it is BONE inclusive. 

Remember to get unenhanced chicken as the solutes can cause digestive upset with dogs.


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## wolfsnaps88 (Jan 2, 2012)

1) Why is kibble so bad for dogs? I'm almost shocked that even the best kinds are not highly recommend for a dog. I'm assuming it is because the meal is premade and there is really no truly good premade meals. 

*~Some of this I answered in my previous post but there are a lot more reasons and I don't have the time. LOL. Many good websites to read though. I already suggested dogfoodproject.com*

2) When not cooking the meat are we introducing problems of microbial pathogens like Salmonellas, Escherichia coli to our dogs? I'm going to clean up the area I make the meat in so I know the humans are not going to be at risk.

*~Clean up for your health safety. A healthy dog can handle those things as their gut is built to handle them. They have a very high acidity to break down and digest bones as well. Also, a short digestive tract to keep things moving along.* 

3) Chicken, beef, and deer. How much of what? What about Geese. We have a lot of Canadian Geese here and going raw means I will also get my hunting licenses. I'd be interested in knowing what I could hunt and feed to my dog and what I should avoid.

*~I would start with one protein source at a time so as not to upset your animal's tummy. You can feed most animals that you would eat yourself. Most wildlife should be frozen for a few weeks to kill any parasites they may be carrying. I am not sure about canadian geese but I assume it is similar to wild duck and should be field dressed and frozen. But, I am not 100% and hopefully another forum member can point you in the right direction. I currently feed venison and chicken and am planning on more types of animal proteins in the future. * 

4) I never see fish listed under the raw diet. Why is that? I can catch plenty of catfish and crappie and fish like these pretty easily. 

*~ Fish is a great animal protein. I would be careful of anything you yourself would not eat. Scavengers like catfish eat some pretty horrid stuff. And you know what they say about you are what you eat. Also, be wary of how much fish you feed with mercury being an ever more worrisome problem these days. I have fed my guys trout and sardines but they only ate cooked trout. Again, freeze freeze freeze of you are going to feed your own catch. I have gutted fish I caught myself and actually SEEN parasites! It was gross. 

5) I hide my dogs food all around the house and in dog food toys that she loves. I don't think raw is going to go so well in these toys. Anything I could use them for?

The reason we do the hide game with kibble is because kibble is boring! When you feed raw, they get the added benefit of chewing those fun bones up. That in itself is a fun time. I use dehydrated lamb lung for my dog's food toys (and kibble because we still feed kibble). Don't worry with playing with the raw stuff. Too messy. 

6) Veggies and other things needed to help my dog out? Whole egg?

This is your call. Everyone does what they think is best. Some people feed veggies and fruits supplementally. Some do whole raw eggs while others only do raw yolks because of the white part contains avidin which binds biotin. There is a lot of reading to do before you make up your mind. 

*7) Why not cook it? 

*Dogs are pretty well made at handling raw foods. You could cook it but high heats kill off a lot of the things a dog needs in his diet. We can find these vitamins in other foods because we do not limit ourselves to just meat. A raw diet has everything a dog needs. Not to mention, its easier than having to cook your dogs/cats meals. 
*
8) How do I know that I'm actually doing everything correctly? I'm fairly new to dog health and this forum, books and research has taken far away from my comfortable vet recommendations.

*You have to do what you feel is right and research can help you make that decision. The way to truely know is to look at your dog. Is he too thin? too fat? Energetic? Listless? Eyes and nose look good? Healthy teeth and gums? Beautiful coat? Regular vet visits help too. There are also guidelines as to what to feed. Muscle to organ to bone ratios. *

9) Last question. My dogs coat is really soft and shiny. I love her coat. Will raw change it?

*If your dog young? Do you want her to stay this way? Raw will not make her coat worse, I have never heard of that happening. But how about this? LESS POOP!*


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## bridget246 (Oct 26, 2011)

“The only place I’ve seen a problem with this diet is puppies,” Knueven says. “If you don’t get the calcium and phosphorous ratio right, you can have bone deformities and growth issues.” I read that in a few places. I also read that some dogs do get infected with Salmonellas and Escherichia coli, namely Grey Hounds. Not really sure how much weight that bares. Hard to find good negative research on this and I'm finding tons of positive results so I'm going to go for it. 

I now have thighs and chicken quarters. I noticed wolfsnap feeds both raw and kibble. Should I do to help her or should I avoid it? I know it's all my choice. But I don't know what choices to make so I'm really depended on other raw feeders to help me make the right choices here. Is sweet potato bad too? 

My dog needed 4 cups of Acana Fish to stay barely within the weight range. It sounded like a lot because it was a lot. 3 cups and she would lose weight. With 4 cups if she happened to have a bad week with the bathroom then even 4 cups was too little as the majority of the food was lost in the stool. I'm going to try starting her out with 5% of her weight and going from there. I must ask if I can use fillers because 5% is nearly 2.5 pounds a day . I got lucky and found it for 69 cents a pound but even that goes to around 2 dollars a day. I suspect she'll need more later on because right now I'm keeping her training down a bit until she finishes developing. I'm currently paying around 70 bucks for 6 weeks of dog food so it isn't too much more but still meh. I guess if it works it will be worth it in the end. 

Actually... I might start her off with 3-4% and keep her at 2 pounds a day to see how she does with it. I'm not sure if it is going to be anything at all like the kibble.


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## tem_sat (Jun 20, 2010)

bridget246 said:


> “The only place I’ve seen a problem with this diet is puppies,” Knueven says. “If you don’t get the calcium and phosphorous ratio right, you can have bone deformities and growth issues.” I read that in a few places. I also read that some dogs do get infected with Salmonellas and Escherichia coli, namely Grey Hounds. Not really sure how much weight that bares. Hard to find good negative research on this and I'm finding tons of positive results so I'm going to go for it.
> 
> I now have thighs and chicken quarters. I noticed wolfsnap feeds both raw and kibble. Should I do to help her or should I avoid it? I know it's all my choice. But I don't know what choices to make so I'm really depended on other raw feeders to help me make the right choices here. Is sweet potato bad too?
> 
> ...


What size / age / breed of dog do you have? I would definitely suggest starting with the low end.


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## bridget246 (Oct 26, 2011)

tem_sat said:


> What size / age / breed of dog do you have? I would definitely suggest starting with the low end.


GSD- King. Very active. She is almost 60. Puppies should be slim but mines is too slim. I can still see her bones. Bridget just recently turned 9 months. She is still growing.

Edit: I don't mind feeding her too much because she has weight to gain and I can adjust. But I really don't want to see her lose any weight again. I cut her kibble back a month or so ago and it wasn't pretty. Her bones poked through. She still had bathroom problems and she was way less active.


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## wolfsnaps88 (Jan 2, 2012)

I do raw part time. You think 2.5 pounds is a lot of raw to go through a day? Between all my animals I am looking at almost 7 pounds a day! So for now (until some great sources can be secured) I only do raw part time.

I do suggest that you NOT feed kibble and raw in the same day. And even when I do raw I typically (not always) let them fast the next day. Usually even when I do offer kibble the next day they look at it and decide to fast themselves. I think its because they are dissapointed that its not raw and are waiting in case I give them something better. Kibble takes longer to digest from what I understand. 

But again, I do not claim to know everything about this raw feeding stuff. This is just what I know from experience. It does sound like you have a good candidate for feeding raw


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## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

I think folks recommend waiting 12 hours between kibble and raw, since they go through the digestive system at different rates. Raw meat digests much faster.


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## liquid (Dec 28, 2011)

I use Totally Raw Natural Dog Food Meal Calculator to get an estimate of how much I should feed my GSD mix pup. 

You should start with smaller meals, trust me. It's not a matter of feeding too much and gaining weight, it's a matter of feeding too much too quickly and making her sick. Keep in mind that your dog will go through a transition phase. Since she's used to eating kibble her body needs to adjust to digesting raw meat and bones. Feeding too much all at once will cause loose stools, diarrhea and sometimes vomiting.

So since you got chicken (good meat to start with :smile I would start her on smaller meals of BONY chicken. Make sure to take the skin off and trim most of the fat. I made the mistake of not giving enough bone to my pup at first and she had diarrhea for two days. More bone = firmer stools, which will help avoid 'cannon butt'. Although the ideal feeding percentage is 80%Meat, 10%Bone, 10%Organs, those numbers are just guidelines. Nothing is set in stone. Watch your dogs poop! It sounds funny, but everything you need to know is in her poop. If her stool is loose/too soft, then feed more bone. If she's straining and her stools are too hard, then feed less bone. Soon enough you'll find the perfect balance of what works with your pup, and that's what you want to figure out.  

Keep feeding her chicken and gradually increase the meal size to whatever the ideal meal is. BUY A KITCHEN SCALE! I eyeballed her meals at first and was waaay overfeeding her, which made her sick. A kitchen scale is definitely something you want! 
You'll be feeding her only chicken for a good 2 weeks to a month, so dont worry about other meat sources yet. Don't start her on any organs for a good 2-4 weeks, as they're very rich and she'll need to be used to digesting raw meat first.

A good thread to check out : http://dogfoodchat.com/forum/raw-feeding/5792-three-most-important-tips.html

If you ever have questions or if you ever start panicking, come here and talk to us. People are always willing to help :smile:


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## bridget246 (Oct 26, 2011)

After looking at the Calculator it looks like I was right on the money on the pounds of food. If 2.4 pounds is the recommend for good weight. Would probably have to be a little more if you need a little weight gain. Which I believe I do and that Fool Meal Calculator site with the skin and bone test makes it seem like I do. So a low amount would be 2 pounds to 2.4 pounds a day, right? 

I'm going to feed her now. This is her longest time going without being feed lol. I'm scared...


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## liquid (Dec 28, 2011)

bridget246 said:


> After looking at the Calculator it looks like I was right on the money on the pounds of food. If 2.4 pounds is the recommend for good weight. Would probably have to be a little more if you need a little weight gain. Which I believe I do and that Fool Meal Calculator site with the skin and bone test makes it seem like I do. So a low amount would be 2 pounds to 2.4 pounds a day, right?
> 
> I'm going to feed her now. This is her longest time going without being feed lol. I'm scared...


Yup, I'd start her off small and work up to what you want her to be eating. 

Good luck with your first feed! Tell us how it goes, and if you run into problems we're here for ya! :smile:


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## bridget246 (Oct 26, 2011)

liquid said:


> Yup, I'd start her off small and work up to what you want her to be eating.
> 
> Good luck with your first feed! Tell us how it goes, and if you run into problems we're here for ya! :smile:


I ran into a few problems. First she didn't know what to do with it. But she quickly learned. I had to let her relax with it which meant she had to be able to take it into the living room with the carpet to eat it. That is where she normally eats. I'm going to take out her bed out of her crate later and feed her in the crate and she how she does. Leaving it on the kitchen floor wasn't such a good idea lol. I cleaned up all areas with a 50/50 water vinegar solution. 

Right now she is extremely active. Way more active than normal normal. She is hungry because she has brought me every single food bowl we have in the house. Trying to wait it out till this evening and I'll feed her again.

Cutting the skin off. What do you guys use to do this? It was not easy for me at all. I've never cooked or touched raw meat before so this is all new to me. 

I have videos and pictures to show people. Will upload those later.


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## liquid (Dec 28, 2011)

I feed Eevee in her crate, on a towel. Partially because she needs to relax after eating (I'm paranoid about bloat) and because I dont want chicken on my carpet! :tongue1:

For skin, most of the time you can simply pull it off. You just gotta find the spot to get your finger underneath the skin and you pull it right off. Use a sharp knife (I use my boning knife) to just slice off whatever you cant rip. I have food prep gloves for this, because I hate getting chicken pieces underneath my nails. Look up youtube videos on removing skin or deboning certain chicken pieces and you'll get the hang of it.


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## Noodlesmadison (Sep 18, 2011)

Raw makes the coat shiney and clean. 
Use freeze dried meat to hide in places for them. 
read the ratio thread (getting started) on here. 
They don't need vegetables. 
Eggs are great! (I give them raw, scrambled, etc) 
Fish is great, just not from pacific northwest
Dogs don't get salmonella like we do.
Kibble is full of EUTHANIZED DOGS AND CATS AND SAWDUST.


A vegan that hunts - that's surprising to me! I'm vegan (for years and years now) and that thought of hunting would never even cross my mind. But to each their own. (just don't tell other vegans you hunt.. not a great convo piece)


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## bridget246 (Oct 26, 2011)

Noodlesmadison said:


> A vegan that hunts - that's surprising to me! I'm vegan (for years and years now) and that thought of hunting would never even cross my mind. But to each their own. (just don't tell other vegans you hunt.. not a great convo piece)


I believed in not getting everything from the grocery store. I had a garden for years. Now if my dog is going to eat meat then it is time to go get the meat. Most of my friends are hunters. Not eating me has been a forever ongoing joke against me. Pacifistic vegetarians are overrated. I have one friend who doesn't eat meat and we are both surrounded by meat eaters.

I have a saying. If your not willing to make the kill then you shouldn't be supporting those who do by spending your money on it. It is only my opinion. It's a strong so I only hold it against myself.


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## DaneMama (Jun 27, 2008)

bridget246 said:


> “The only place I’ve seen a problem with this diet is puppies,” Knueven says. “If you don’t get the calcium and phosphorous ratio right, you can have bone deformities and growth issues.” I read that in a few places. I also read that some dogs do get infected with Salmonellas and Escherichia coli, namely Grey Hounds. Not really sure how much weight that bares. Hard to find good negative research on this and I'm finding tons of positive results so I'm going to go for it.


Most of these cases are of dogs that are fed inappropriately structured raw diets. We have a set guideline to what you're supposed to feed, how much, etc. Dogs on a well balanced raw diet of mostly meat, some bone and some organ from a good of variety of different proteins wont have bone growth disorders or have issues with pathogens. Unless there's other underlying genetic or environmental factors. 



> I now have thighs and chicken quarters. I noticed wolfsnap feeds both raw and kibble. Should I do to help her or should I avoid it? I know it's all my choice. But I don't know what choices to make so I'm really depended on other raw feeders to help me make the right choices here. Is sweet potato bad too?


I don't suggest feeding both kibble and raw together. I don't think it'll help her transition to a full raw diet. Just take the plunge and go full raw and toss the kibble. 

Some dogs handle kibble and raw together fine, but many don't. I would hate for her to not do well on both and set you back a long ways in transition. 



> Actually... I might start her off with 3-4% and keep her at 2 pounds a day to see how she does with it. I'm not sure if it is going to be anything at all like the kibble.


Please don't start her off with this amount. Feeding too much raw food all at once can cause WAY more problems for her and you. Dogs easily get sick on too much raw too fast. I HIGHLY, HIGHLY recommend feeding 1% of her current weight for the first few days and GRADUALLY adding more food in. Eventually you can get up to 3-4% of her weight per day to help her gain weight...but this will take time. There's a really good chance that she will naturally fill out on raw compared to kibble. Its very common for string bean dogs that switch to raw fill out really well within a month. Just be patient. 

Its not like her being skinny is causing any health deterioration. Its just hard for people to see bones on a dog. 



bridget246 said:


> GSD- King. Very active. She is almost 60. Puppies should be slim but mines is too slim. I can still see her bones. Bridget just recently turned 9 months. She is still growing.


Since she's normal and active...being skinny isn't a bad thing other than its harder for people to accept it. 



> Edit: I don't mind feeding her too much because she has weight to gain and I can adjust. But I really don't want to see her lose any weight again. I cut her kibble back a month or so ago and it wasn't pretty. Her bones poked through. She still had bathroom problems and she was way less active.


To reiterate, PLEASE don't feed her more food than she needs right off the bat. 



bridget246 said:


> Right now she is extremely active. Way more active than normal normal. She is hungry because she has brought me every single food bowl we have in the house. Trying to wait it out till this evening and I'll feed her again.


This is normal. Eating real food is more stimulating to the body. 

Honestly I wouldn't feed her until tomorrow to start with. I know that sounds cruel...but I've been mentoring people on raw diets for years and I know what I'm talking about. Take things slowly and things will be much easier for the both of you.

How much did you feed her before? And what did you feed her? 



> Cutting the skin off. What do you guys use to do this? It was not easy for me at all. I've never cooked or touched raw meat before so this is all new to me.


A good, sharp pair of kitchen shears worked best for me when trimming skin/fat. 



> I have videos and pictures to show people. Will upload those later.


Raw feeding is fun! People enjoy it almost as much as our dogs do :wink:


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## bridget246 (Oct 26, 2011)

Only problem with feeding her so little is that I can't deal with her. When she is starving we can't play. We can't run. We can't do anything. She can't control herself. She always wants to eat and of course she always acts hungry but when she is starving I can't deal with it. I lose most of the control I have over her. She doesn't want to be touched or anything. She'll chew on something for a little while but that is it. Maybe some people can get away with feeding their dog so little but I doubt I could and keep my sanity. She had about 2 pounds today. I didn't weigh without the skin and fat so I don't know for sure it was 2. She was hungry but she wasn't starving crazy which meant we were fine.

I can replace food with something else. Carbs or something. 1% is just way too small of amount. We have a training test this week and if this is the case I would have to go back to kibble so we could pass the test. Otherwise on 1% we'd fail the test for sure. I want to make this an easy translation for everyone involved.


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## CoverTune (Dec 20, 2011)

Listen to DaneMama, she knows what she's talking about! I just started raw a few weeks ago and my boy ended up having pure liquid diarrhea for a couple of days because I was WAY over-feeding him by accident. He needs to gain weight as well, but the diet transition needs to be done right.. the weight will come.

The behaviour issues are just that, behavioural.. NOT diet related. Both my dogs were pretty restless the first day or two, when they were hungry, but that went away quickly, and it certainly wasn't uncontrollable. I'm not really sure what you mean when you say you lose control of her, but that seems like a training thing that needs to be dealt with.


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## DaneMama (Jun 27, 2008)

bridget246 said:


> Only problem with feeding her so little is that I can't deal with her. When she is starving we can't play. We can't run. We can't do anything. She can't control herself. She always wants to eat and of course she always acts hungry but when she is starving I can't deal with it. I lose most of the control I have over her. She doesn't want to be touched or anything. She'll chew on something for a little while but that is it. Maybe some people can get away with feeding their dog so little but I doubt I could and keep my sanity. She had about 2 pounds today. I didn't weigh without the skin and fat so I don't know for sure it was 2. She was hungry but she wasn't starving crazy which meant we were fine.


I'm not talking long term here. I'm talking a few days. There's a chance she will handle what you gave her already just fine, but I would NOT feed her anymore. Two pounds of raw chicken is a LOT for just the first day for a 60 pound dog. 



> I can replace food with something else. Carbs or something. 1% is just way too small of amount. We have a training test this week and if this is the case I would have to go back to kibble so we could pass the test. Otherwise on 1% we'd fail the test for sure. I want to make this an easy translation for everyone involved.


It defeats the whole purpose of doing a prey model raw diet to add "carbs or something" because the whole premise of this diet model is to get away from feeding these inappropriate things to our dogs. 

Again, I'm not talking long term on only 1%...I'm talking the first day or two. 

If this test is so important, maybe just wait until after it to do the switch. Because there's a reason we guide people through the transition this way...its the way that works. MOST people who end up doing things the way THEY see fit...they end up with sick dogs. Then we have to help them get back on track which I don't dislike...but I don't like to see people set their dogs up for failure at all. So, to make it an "easy transition for everyone" I know you should listen to what I'm telling you. 



CoverTune said:


> Listen to DaneMama, she knows what she's talking about! I just started raw a few weeks ago and my boy ended up having pure liquid diarrhea for a couple of days because I was WAY over-feeding him by accident. He needs to gain weight as well, but the diet transition needs to be done right.. the weight will come.
> 
> The behaviour issues are just that, behavioural.. NOT diet related. Both my dogs were pretty restless the first day or two, when they were hungry, but that went away quickly, and it certainly wasn't uncontrollable. I'm not really sure what you mean when you say you lose control of her, but that seems like a training thing that needs to be dealt with.


I'm glad that a newbie chimed in. First hand experiences can be very helpful to others to see the "light" so to speak. 

And yes, the behavioral issues are a whole other ball game which I agree with you 100%


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## bridget246 (Oct 26, 2011)

CoverTune said:


> The behaviour issues are just that, behavioural.. NOT diet related. Both my dogs were pretty restless the first day or two, when they were hungry, but that went away quickly, and it certainly wasn't uncontrollable. I'm not really sure what you mean when you say you lose control of her, but that seems like a training thing that needs to be dealt with.


Diet related or not doesn't change the fact that she is much better with food than without food. If nothing else changes besides rather or not she eats I don't see how her diet is unrelated to her behavior. Maybe it is completely unrelated and she finds food to be a relaxing fix to whatever other problem might be causing her to behave in such a way. I know I get into a bad mood when I'm hungry so for me it is related directly to food. It is the pain of being hungry that makes me grumpy. Only real difference is that I can communicate that pain and she can only show it to me through her actions. 

I did always find the dog food diet strange. In class they told us to feed after class. I would always feed a few hours before going. Let her rest for a hour or so and then get her warmed up for class. She is a completely different dog if I leave out the food and just let her rest and attempt to warm her up before class. Twice I didn't feed her before class. Everyone gave me strange looks because my dog would growl at me from time to time. Still, I'd get her through the activity we are suppose to do. I wondered how the other handlers were getting by with not eating before class. 

Here is what I meant by losing control. My dog is stubborn. It's a trait of the breed GSD-King. I'm a new handler and I'm doing my best with her. I don't know what the pet store did or whatever happened before she got to me. But when she gets restless like that she goes right back to the nipping. It seems like way too much energy. If I try to run she'll grab onto me making me stop every few steps. When walking she'll try to grab the leash from me and I have to keep correcting that instead of walking. Tug of war she ignores the rope I'm holding because apparently she now prefers my hands. This is only in the few rare events that I don't feed her at least twice a day. I can feed her less. It just has to be spread out. Feeding her a lot at once didn't get me anywhere either. Every single time this has happened I looked at the clock and noticed we were a few hours behind on feeding. We finish whatever it is we were doing to let her rest a bit before feeding. We rest again after feeding and then I can get her energy out in any of the ways listed above. 

Today her stool was mixed between good and bad. Though that is almost normal. I can cut her back a bit but I just couldn't do it yesterday as my time to do that had already passed. She ate both her meals before I read any of DanaMama's messages. Last time I cut her food back I tried it for almost 2 weeks. It was so hard to deal with her then. I also didn't realize this was suppose to be 1 to 2 days. Meh... figured I would make a few mistakes. 

Sorry for getting so frustrated before.


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## Liz (Sep 27, 2010)

I understand her being hungry but you are describing a behavior issue. This is something I would address sooner rather thanlater. She is still young and your problems may increase when she hits maturity and becomes even more challenging. You are doing good things with training and such but all dogs have something special they need work on. With her background and what you describe I would not be comfortable until I had addressed and changed those behaviors. I have been "in" dogs for over 25 years and definately wouldn't be at peace with either my dog or a client dog displaying such behaviors and allowing them to go uncorrected. Self control is essential especially with larger breeds. JMHOhwell:


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## bridget246 (Oct 26, 2011)

Actually we are working it out. It just taking time. Other more experience handlers give it about 6 months at the very most. These issues happen from time to time. But she is getting it. What might seem bad is about 250% better than it use to be. If we can get her food together within the next month we will be good to go. Upset stomach was one our problems. She wants to be touched differently and not downed when that happens. I can't wait to get over this. Now I know a lot of her different body languages so I can recognize those problems sooner. Honestly her diet is the only unsolved issue.


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## bridget246 (Oct 26, 2011)

Today I only gave her half a pound so far and I will give her another half this evening... or maybe not. She isn't feeling so well today. Looks fine but I can tell she is bothered by help much she is sleeping. I kind of want her to work through what is in her before introducing anything else.


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## DaneMama (Jun 27, 2008)

bridget246 said:


> Today I only gave her half a pound so far and I will give her another half this evening... or maybe not. She isn't feeling so well today. Looks fine but I can tell she is bothered by help much she is sleeping. I kind of want her to work through what is in her before introducing anything else.


I would hold off on feeding her anymore today. Has she gone potty yet today? 

This is exactly why we tell people to take things slow...its always harder to remedy a sick dog than preventing it in the first place.


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## bridget246 (Oct 26, 2011)

DaneMama said:


> I would hold off on feeding her anymore today. Has she gone potty yet today?
> 
> This is exactly why we tell people to take things slow...its always harder to remedy a sick dog than preventing it in the first place.


Yep, it was messy. But I can tell she still has more in her.


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## DaneMama (Jun 27, 2008)

bridget246 said:


> Yep, it was messy. But I can tell she still has more in her.


DEFINITELY don't feed her anymore today. I was hoping this wouldn't happen, but more often than not when dogs are overfed their first day on raw they have troubles.


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## Liz (Sep 27, 2010)

I am glad you are working on the behavior stuff - it does take a while sometimes. She may seem more sluggish possibly because her tummy is processing bone and meat which is so different than kibble. My adults took longer to get with it than the youngsters. My high drive girl was fed three times per day for the first week - so she got about 5-6 ounces of food per feeding and seemed to do well with that. Now she eats one meal a day like everyone else and is fine. Just be patient. Oh, we also dehydrated lung for treats.


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## bridget246 (Oct 26, 2011)

Stool turned solid last night. Really great today. Only it appears a little dry. I forgot the last time I saw solid stool.


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## DaneMama (Jun 27, 2008)

Great news! Keep feeder her bone in chicken for the next week or two.


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