# Training set backs...suggestions?



## VizslaMama (Feb 15, 2012)

I hope I explain this right and it doesn't get too confusing.

Copper's leash walking keeps going backwards. I can't seem to get him to understand to walk beside us. Not in front, no pulling, not behind me, but right beside me. We have taken a HUGE interest in training him for hunting. We want and need to have a solid "heel" on and off leash. We have a NAVDHA test coming up in May would really like his leash manners nipped in the bud by then. All other commands are strong and coming along with great strides. His walking is the only this that had been a battle. 

Here is the problem - I hope I type this clear enough for you to understand:

If I work with him on a Friday night, I can get him to understand walking beside me is what I want. I use the basement for the first session (no distractions). He picks up within a few seconds. I repeat a few session down there to make sure he truly understands. Once he is moving along beside me without pulling out in front and watching me, then the next session I will move it to our backyard (few more distractions). This is a challange, but soon learns. I repeat sessions out here through out the day to make sure he understands. By Saturday I have a great walking dog, on and off leash in the fences in back yard. Once he is doing great in the back yard, I take him out front(on leash of course). Lots of distrations, and many more smells. Takes a few sessions throughout Sunday, but he gets the hang of it. I always take frequent breaks for play to make is a fun expereicne. The session are short as well so he doesn't get bored. I get so excited when he gets it and look forward for the next day to move him across the street to the sidewalk. 

I don't get past this point : ( Monday comes, the boyfriends mom comes over on her lunch hour to play and walk him during the week. I come home and go to take him for a night training walk across to the sidewalk and it is like I never did any of the previous sessions. He wants to walk out in front of me. I bring him back to front yard for a quick mini session. He learns quickly, so I do some sidewalk work. There are more smells so I don't get too far but he improves. We play tug to make it fun. We call it a night and I get excited to progress a little further tomorrow. I come one, see that she walked him at lunch that day and I have to start over again like I did yesterday. There will be a day when I go to walk him and I make it further. I find out she didn't get a chance to walk him that day. But then the next day comes and he's awful and I find out she walked him. 

I don't understand what is going on. When ever she walks him, he wants to walk out in front. Pulls and does not get it. He won't stay at my side even for a few steps and yet the days before when she didn't walk him he was making good improvement.

I feel like his walks with the bf's mom she lets him walk out in front of her the entire time. She doesn't like dogs pulling, so I don't think she is letting him do thi. but she does put a head halter on him becasuse he pulls with her but she doesn't make sure he stay's beside her most of the time.

Just not sure what to do. He is 12 months and for a dog who has mastered so many things, leash walking is not one of them and is getting quite frustrating.

We have gone through three levels of obedience training as well. The days that she walks at lunch are the evening classes that he seems like a dog that was never training at leash walking. 

Advice? 
Do we need to tell her not to walk him, so we can start from scratch again and introduce "heel" right away. Right now I say nothing. She won't use our training methods. It is his fun walk as she calls it. 

Can dogs understand the difference. Fun walk vs traning walk? I would think he is just getting confused.

Help : ( What are we doing wrong here....


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## lovemydogsalways (Mar 4, 2012)

I agree with you that he probably is getting confused. If she is not going to walk him in a heel I would ask her kindly to please not walk him at all. Maybe suggest to her to play fetch instead in your fenced backyard.


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## VizslaMama (Feb 15, 2012)

I have a feeling this is what it is going to come down to. I feel bad, but we are getting no where. She has owned dogs her entire life, so I feel like it would be a slap in the face to tell her she is not doing it right and can't take Copper for anice leisure walk around the neighbour hood. : (

I do not want to use the head halter anymore, which she uses because he pulls without it. He can't have it on in the feild so I might as well start over without it.


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## Liz (Sep 27, 2010)

It sounds like you maybe moving too fast from place to place. I personally work in the quietest are until he is 100% all the time. I would add lots of distractions in the basement first and then when he is 100% move to the next location and work there until nothing breaks the behavior. Some dogs need a lot of repetition - and usually it is the dogs with a job to do as they get distracted more easily by wanting to scent or hunt or track. No they are not dumb but they do have a different agenda. I think if you take more time in one place before you moving to the next step it might help. We also use different commands. I am very obedience oriented - I use heel, place, watch, etc. My husband and kids just go out and walk so they use a different collar and different commands like let's walk, hold up, wait for me. None of these are anything I would use in competition training. Anyway I think dogs are smart and know who to try what with - kind of like kids. With me they know not to beg or be annoying - with Grandma they are sighing and talking about this wonderful so and so mom won't give them. They know who to play and who it won't fly with.


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## VizslaMama (Feb 15, 2012)

Liz said:


> It sounds like you maybe moving too fast from place to place. I personally work in the quietest are until he is 100% all the time. I would add lots of distractions in the basement first and then when he is 100% move to the next location and work there until nothing breaks the behavior. Some dogs need a lot of repetition - and usually it is the dogs with a job to do as they get distracted more easily by wanting to scent or hunt or track. No they are not dumb but they do have a different agenda. I think if you take more time in one place before you moving to the next step it might help. We also use different commands. I am very obedience oriented - I use heel, place, watch, etc. My husband and kids just go out and walk so they use a different collar and different commands like let's walk, hold up, wait for me. None of these are anything I would use in competition training. Anyway I think dogs are smart and know who to try what with - kind of like kids. With me they know not to beg or be annoying - with Grandma they are sighing and talking about this wonderful so and so mom won't give them. They know who to play and who it won't fly with.


Ok - that makes sense! I will hold off a bit on moving to a new place to quickly until I know he has it 100%. 

Does this still mean that my boyfriends mom should not be allowed to walk him on her lunch hour? You mention your husband and kids use a different collar and different commands. I don't think she has a particular command. She just walks with him. Could she keep using the head halter with him for her lunch walks, and not have an effect on the training I am doing with him without it? He certainly knows the difference between his head halther and his other collars. 

I feel awful telling her not to walk him, it might take weeks or months for him to be 100% great! He is very scent driven.


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## Maxy24 (Mar 5, 2011)

Are you using an actual heel command or just wanting him to walk at your side always without being told? For me heel is a specific command. On walks my dog can walk in front or behind or whatever, he just can't pull. That way if I or someone else just wants to go on a walk without worrying about training they can. There is no heel command given and the dog knows he can walk ahead. Once I say heel he has to get into position and stay there until released. This is a command that takes a while for me to teach, probably one of the longest, because I first teach the dog how to get into the position from both sides, then how to walk beside me in a straight line (one step at a time to start), then how turn in place with me (pivot), and then finally we can actually walk around a room and move on from there. It gives a VERY solid foundation.


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## xchairity_casex (Oct 8, 2011)

someone posted what looked like a great idea for dogs who are not "getting" heel very well where they looped a lead across the dogs chest to prevent them from pulling ahead i wonder if that would work in this situation?


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## VizslaMama (Feb 15, 2012)

Maxy24 said:


> Are you using an actual heel command or just wanting him to walk at your side always without being told? For me heel is a specific command. On walks my dog can walk in front or behind or whatever, he just can't pull. That way if I or someone else just wants to go on a walk without worrying about training they can. There is no heel command given and the dog knows he can walk ahead. Once I say heel he has to get into position and stay there until released. This is a command that takes a while for me to teach, probably one of the longest, because I first teach the dog how to get into the position from both sides, then how to walk beside me in a straight line (one step at a time to start), then how turn in place with me (pivot), and then finally we can actually walk around a room and move on from there. It gives a VERY solid foundation.


I havn't started a "heel" command at the moment. I didn't want to start saying it without proper understanding of how to teach it. The more I think about this, the more a feel like I agree with what Maxy24 does. It is not just me who walks him. I teach everone who walk Copper to make sure he stays beside them when he wants to be a little up front doesn't seem like a problem, as long as they do not allow him to pull. I do understand now that "heel" is its own separate training session. I don't need everyone to work with him on this. 

Anyone know of a good websites on how to train "heel". I've seen many different ways. I am looking for a heel that basically the dog is glued to your leg. When you move, he moves right along with out. Side ways, backwards, circles etc. 

As for loose leash walking - well he just sucks when he doesn't have his head halter on. With it on he's a saint. I will take the training with it off a lot slower. I still feel that his mom must take him for a walk. It is what she loves to do Why rob her of that when he can walk nicely on it. She will still use the halter to go for a walk. He doesn't pull with it on, so at any rate that is what I am trying to avoid with it off so its a good start. Now I just need to work with him with it off. Fun, fun, fun. I don't want it to feel like he is in military school :becky:


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## VizslaMama (Feb 15, 2012)

xchairity_casex said:


> someone posted what looked like a great idea for dogs who are not "getting" heel very well where they looped a lead across the dogs chest to prevent them from pulling ahead i wonder if that would work in this situation?


Oh - I would think it would make it easier to pull no? I will search that techinque, maybe I am pictureing it differently.


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## Liz (Sep 27, 2010)

With my dogs I teach a loose leash walk with a "let's walk command" they also use a martingale collar. When we train in obedience I use a rolled leather collar and we use "heel", "stay", "place" etc. I use to train heel with lots of motion and then add attention. Now I teach a watch from the heel position - when that is solid for one minute - with distractions I add one step. So they are sitting in heel position and get a "watch me" and "heel" we take one step and release. When they are perfect with distractions we go three steps, five steps, ten steps, etc. I now have beautiful heeling with total attention and the pups seem to understand much more easily what I am expecting and it is so different than just walking. They can't watch my face and be anywhere but in heel position. so they learn from the first step the most important part of "heel" is to watch mom. Let's walk on the other hand is a polite stroll. Doing it this way has made heeling very easy for my guys. Maybe it will help yours. Just remember never to go to the next step until they are 100% proofed on the first. JMHO


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## chowder (Sep 7, 2008)

Liz said:


> With my dogs I teach a loose leash walk with a "let's walk command" they also use a martingale collar. When we train in obedience I use a rolled leather collar and we use "heel", "stay", "place" etc. I use to train heel with lots of motion and then add attention. Now I teach a watch from the heel position - when that is solid for one minute - with distractions I add one step. So they are sitting in heel position and get a "watch me" and "heel" we take one step and release. When they are perfect with distractions we go three steps, five steps, ten steps, etc. I now have beautiful heeling with total attention and the pups seem to understand much more easily what I am expecting and it is so different than just walking. They can't watch my face and be anywhere but in heel position. so they learn from the first step the most important part of "heel" is to watch mom. Let's walk on the other hand is a polite stroll. Doing it this way has made heeling very easy for my guys. Maybe it will help yours. Just remember never to go to the next step until they are 100% proofed on the first. JMHO


I really agree with the idea of two different commands and two different collars. When I take my guys on a 'fun walk' they get to wander all over, sniff, and just have doggy fun. Shade wears an 'Easy Walk' harness that has done wonders to keep him from pulling at all. I like it much better then the head harness. Rocky wears a martingale collar. 
But when it's time to 'heel' and walk right beside me, that's a whole different story. We use different collars and even a different leash. The dogs have no problem telling the difference.


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## Celt (Dec 27, 2010)

I've, also, taught seperate commands for different walking "styles". Heel for stick to my side, Let's go-loose leash walk but stay close, and Walk on-wander around walk. Dogs are pretty smart, mine learn the different commands even with the same collar on. It did take a while though.


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## VizslaMama (Feb 15, 2012)

Thank everyone! This makes me feel better that I do not have to limit his walking. Matt's mom would have been crushed if she had to wait to walk him until he gets the hang of everything. 

I will start using different commands and I will make sure she uses "lets go" when she takes him. Since he knows the difference between his head halter and his regular collars, I will stick with this as well. 

Head halter for everyday walking and his regular collars and slip leash for heel and when he is working in the feild. 

Now I just need to learn a wee bit more patience. : ) 

Thanks again!


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## Maxy24 (Mar 5, 2011)

As far as teaching heel goes, I'll post videos because they make more sense, but I basically start just by teaching the dog to find the heel position (left side, dog's shoulder lined up with my left leg). I do that by using a hand target, my dog knows the command to poke my palm with his nose, so if I put my hand down at my left leg with the palm facing backwards he'll run in and poke it and suddenly be in position. If your dog doesn't do this then you can lure him. If the dog tends to have his butt swinging outwards I'd start this command against a wall, so there is only just enough room for the dog between my leg and the wall, so he has to be straight. At first I'll just have the dog come into position from right behind me, then I'll teach him to start from where ever and have to go past my right side and around behind me to get to my left side. Later I'd teach the dog how to get into heel from the left side as well, getting into position by going around behind me is easier to start with though. I do that for a little while, move away from the wall slowly, making sure the dog continues to stay straight. I'll build duration so that after the dog is standing there I wait a few seconds and make sure the dog stays put (and doesn't move out in front or sit as dogs often do because they usually get rewarded in front of you and for sitting). After a while of this (maybe a few sessions, depends on how quick the dog learns) I'd take one step forward. As soon as the dog takes a step forward he'll get rewarded. I go step by step like that for a while until the dog takes the step with me very quickly. Then I'd do two or three steps, rewarding the dog for stepping with me. Again make sure the dog stays straight, if not use the wall (later you can teach a "get in" command to tell the dog to swing his butt into your leg to be close). So I teach finding heel, and this straight line heel to start. Now I'd probably teach the dog how to get into position from the left and once again walk in a straight line. 

Once the dog can get into position from the left and right and can walk with you in a straight line I'd start teaching the dog to pivot with you. I do this by teaching the dog to put their front feet on a flat stationary object (like a book) and then move their butt towards my left leg (I'd be standing next to the dog). Getting the dog to start moving those back feet can be difficult, once they do start it usually goes quickly though. I start by standing right next to the dog, him on my left in heel position, reward just for being in position, and then take one step to my right around the stationary object. The dog must keep his front feet planted but move his back feet towards me to get the reward. This takes some time. You can try luring or just waiting for any back foot movement and rewarding it. If your dog has a lot of trouble starting this then you might wwant to teach the dog to rotate around the object without you in the picture to start, just so he gets used to moving those back feet. Eventually what you want is when you take a step the dog immediately moves his back feet towards you until he hits your left leg. Then you can start taking multiple steps. Then once that is mastered and you can spin all around that object you need to go the other way (into the dog). I don't really remember teaching this, I think it was easy so it went fast, but I think I just took a tiny step into him and rewarded as soon as he moved the back feet away from me. Then again, making sure the front feet stayed on the book. I got faster and faster as he got better. Then you'll be able to rotate around the object both ways with no problem. Make sure you don't spend too much time on one direction once the dog has it or else they'll start to be uncomfortable doing it the other way. I had this issue once I stopped using the book because having the dog pivot their butt into me was more difficult so I stopped working on pivoting away from me and it fell apart. So after the dog is a pro with the object pick it up, get the dog into heel position and try, one step at a time, without the object. If you need to put the book back down go for it. Make sure the dog can eventually do both ways really well without the book and then start combining it with straight heeling. Get the dog into position, walk forward, then pivot one way, walk forward, pivot the other way, giving lots of rewards as you go. Since they know how to pivot in a circle just doing regular turns shouldn't be a problem either now, a turn is just a slight pivot to the dog. 

Then you'd teach the dog to go backwards in a straight line, I have not gotten to this with my own dog but I imagine it's a lot like teaching them to go straight. Some dogs just do it right off the bat because they have gotten so used to sticking to your side, but I'm sure some need it to be taught step by step just like straight forward heeling. At some point you'll also want to practice having the dog do things like sit and down in the heel position. Many dogs think sit means run in front of person and sit, so make sure the dog can do it without leaving position. Keep them there with a lure to start if you need to. Also add in various speeds, going really slow and running.


So the videos, keep in mind I only watched these people's heeling videos, outside of these videos they may have terrible training methods. The only one I know I like is Kikopup.

This one shows how to teach the dog to get into heel from the right. My only issue with this video is that he is allowing the dog to not be very straight (the dog's butt is swung behind the person) which might be because the wall is too close for the dog to be straight. I also think after he moves the chair that the dog is rewarded for being too far away from his leg, but it is the early stages. I also don't teach the dog to heel on the right, but you can, I think you have to for certain venues.
How To Clicker Train "Heel" Position (Dog Training) - YouTube

This one deals with the pivoting, he starts with the dog pivoting without the person, then adds himself in after.
How To Train Any Dog To Heel PERFECTLY! - YouTube

Another pivoting one-she teaches the dog to pivot in front position as well as heel position. She also teaches heeling on both left and right.
How to train a dog Pivoting- for Heel, Rally, Freestyle + more - YouTube

This one shows how you'd start getting the dog to take forward and backward steps 
Dog Training - Competition Heeling, Episode 3 - YouTube


It seems a lot of people train the pivoting before anything else, perhaps that would be faster than what I did, not sure.


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