# Questionable Holistic Advice



## monster'sdad (Jul 29, 2012)

Use Ivermectin with Extreme Caution


Leave it to "Dr." Becker and Mercola to scare people about using Ivermectin products just before Spring.

She says, "Extreme Caution"


Do you know how much it takes to overdose a non-mdr1 dog on either Heartguard, 1% liquid or 1.87% paste?


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## Sprocket (Oct 4, 2011)

hmm well considering you are not a vet, and you also did not post any articles by trust worthy sources to back up your beliefs.

Instead of posting inflammatory snide remarks, you could post where you get your information from so we can all make the decision for ourselves.



monster'sdad said:


> Do you know how stupid you have to be to overdose a non-mdr1 dog on either Heartguard, 1% liquid or 1.87% paste?


Do YOU know how stupid the general public is? Not every person who owns a dog is as self reliant as the majority of this forum.


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## meggels (May 30, 2010)

I love Dr. Becker. 

I find it kind of funny that you put Dr in " "....either she's a doctor by degree, or she's not


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## monster'sdad (Jul 29, 2012)

She is a disgrace to Vets. Read the hysteria in the comments. Ivermectin is the safest wormer EVER, EVER sold.

It is among the least toxic things you could use on a non-mdr1 dog for worming. A 55lb dog would have to eat about 125 Heartguard tablets at the low end of published toxicity. If someone were using the 1.87% paste for horses they would have to use 60% of the tube all at once.

In some of the beagle studies the toxicity was about 40 times higher than I what stated above.

Vet's dose Ivermectin for mange at 75 times Heartguard, daily.

Even in mdr1 dogs it is safe at multiples of Heartguard.

It is amazing a Dr. would stoop to that nonsense to sell some herbal crap.

All disguised as concern, but her motive is clear.


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## Sprocket (Oct 4, 2011)

monster'sdad said:


> She is a disgrace to Vets. Read the hysteria in the comments. Ivermectim is the safest wormer EVER, EVER sold.
> 
> It is among the least toxic things you could use on a non-mdr1 dog for worming. A 55lb dog would have to eat about 125 Heartguard tablets at the low end of published toxicity. If someone were using the 1.87% paste for horses they would have to use 60% of the tube all at once.
> 
> ...


Again, more inflammatory responses... *PLEASE POST LINK TO YOUR STATEMENTS.*


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## monster'sdad (Jul 29, 2012)

Sprocket said:


> Again, more inflammatory responses... *PLEASE POST LINK TO YOUR STATEMENTS.*


You look, it is common knowledge. The low end of toxicity in the Merck Manual is 2,500mcg/kgbw, the high end is 80,000mcg/kgbw. You do the math.

One Heartguard tablet for a 51 - 100lb dog is 272mcg total.

Her motive is to scare Heartguard users plain and simple.

And I made an error, a 55lb dog would have to eat 230 Heartquard tablets.


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## Kassandra (Jun 6, 2012)

You always pound us for links, we give them. However, you are allowed to post things like this and when we ask for links we are scrutinized? 

My goodness, that is not fair at all.


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## BearMurphy (Feb 29, 2012)

I wonder how many people have monster'sdad in their ignore list after seeing the title of this thread? He would probably go away if we stop responding to his posts


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## DaViking (Sep 27, 2011)

Merck Veterinary Manual


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## monster'sdad (Jul 29, 2012)

DaViking said:


> Merck Veterinary Manual


Isn't that backed by big industry? :wink:


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## monster'sdad (Jul 29, 2012)

I spoiled the Dr. Becker love affair I guess.

Don't let Dr. Becker put your dog at risk for something as serious as heartworms.


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## DaViking (Sep 27, 2011)

Thank god cops aren't there to enforce their own personal beliefs. C'mon, members here go on a tear about individuals and professions all the time. I could sit here a whole week collecting thread links to inflammatory remarks, rudeness and condescending attitude from *a lot* of ppl. The more or less lack of indignation just means ppl can't be bothered with mindless bickering all the time. Just move on and comfort yourself with the fact that nothing's gonna change anyway. Mercola will still make money and monster got something of his chest. You can choose to fill up the pages with bickering but it won't add value to DFC.


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## Sprocket (Oct 4, 2011)

DaViking said:


> Thank god cops aren't there to enforce their own personal beliefs. C'mon, members here go on a tear about individuals and professions all the time. I could sit here a whole week collecting thread links to inflammatory remarks, rudeness and condescending attitude from *a lot* of ppl. The more or less lack of indignation just means ppl can't be bothered with mindless bickering all the time. Just move on and comfort yourself with the fact that nothing's gonna change anyway. Mercola will still make money and monster got something of his chest. You can choose to fill up the pages with bickering but it won't add value to DFC.


Well then it was therapeutic for two of us...


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## DaViking (Sep 27, 2011)

Sprocket said:


> Well then it was therapeutic for two of us...


 +1 :llama:


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## MollyWoppy (Mar 19, 2010)

monster'sdad said:


> Use Ivermectin with Extreme Caution
> Leave it to "Dr." Becker and the chimps at Mercola to scare people about using Ivermectin products just before Spring.
> This is how these phoney balonies operate. Scare people and then offer some herb or junk supplement instead.





monster'sdad said:


> She is a disgrace to Vets. Read the hysteria in the comments.
> It is amazing a Dr. would stoop to that nonsense to sell some herbal crap.
> All disguised as concern, but her motive is clear.





monster'sdad said:


> Her motive is to scare Heartguard users plain and simple.





monster'sdad said:


> Don't let quacks like Dr. Becker put your dog at risk for something as serious as heartworms.



If you are so upset about this, why don't you just man up and post these statements on the comments section of Dr Beckers article?


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## Rvent (Apr 15, 2012)

monster'sdad said:


> Use Ivermectin with Extreme Caution
> 
> 
> Leave it to "Dr." Becker and the chimps at Mercola to scare people about using Ivermectin products just before Spring.
> ...



Did you even read the article? It talks of the dangers when used off label, like to kill heart worm larvae which any vet will tell you is a risk to the dog.

The dosages of ivermectin in heartworm preventives are significantly lower than doses used for other purposes. Off-label use of ivermectin typically involves much higher dosages than the amount in a heartworm preventive – as much as 50 times higher, in fact. This is important information every dog owner should be aware of.

NO ware did I read anything about pushing alternatives. Maybe you should go back an read it again! I for one as a dog owner would expect my vet to tell me the risk when using it this way.
So after reading your comments and then reading the article it seems to me you either misunderstood the article, or you are just trying to stir the pot.


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## monster'sdad (Jul 29, 2012)

I did read the entire thing and her purpose was to scare people which it did if you read the comments. Scare, not inform, and them market her junk.


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## MollyWoppy (Mar 19, 2010)

Well, take it up with her and tell her how you feel. Calling her horrible names on here is not going to achieve anything.


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## MollyWoppy (Mar 19, 2010)

Call me stupid if you want, but can you point out where exactly in the article she is trying to market 'her junk'. I can't find any reference to selling anything anywhere.


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## Rvent (Apr 15, 2012)

monster'sdad said:


> That's fine you can all have your own club. As for her story, I did read the entire thing and her purpose was to scare people which it did if you read the comments. Scare, not inform, and them market her junk.


people should be scared of the effects of it to there dog when it is used the way she is discussing off label.
listen there are a lot of studies on the ill effects of drugs, vaccines and other western medicines having terrible effects on people, never mind dogs. 

As with raising our children and other family matters including our dogs it is all personal choice, I am pretty sure that is why my son was fighting for this country is to ensure that I and all others including you, have the freedom to make personal choices.

I understand you do not believe in alternative medicine and you obviously believe western medicine is best (and sometimes it is) there are a lot of traditional vets who agree with some sort of alternative treatments (acupuncture) for example, this does not mean they are not "real vets" or quacks. Remember that most of the medicine we use today was thought to be hocus pocus and the doctors quacks in the early days, and we now know this is not true. 

The same holds true with alternative medicines and treatments, as well as alternative feeding (like Raw) just because it has not been approved by the masses does not make it hocus pocus.


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## bett (Mar 15, 2012)

i also read the entire article. 
where did she offer some "herb or junk supplement"?
and if one didnt know that she werent a traditional vet, i couldnt tell she was a "phoney balonie"

i myself, thank god for those "herbs and junk " supplements and chinese herbs.
they managed to get rex out of "liver failure" as the traditional internist said he was in after eating toxic diamond food.

amazing, i think.

oh, yeah,so does my regular traditional vet, and the internist who treated him.


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## FBarnes (Feb 17, 2013)

bett said:


> i also read the entire article.
> where did she offer some "herb or junk supplement"?
> and if one didnt know that she werent a traditional vet, i couldnt tell she was a "phoney balonie"
> 
> ...


I do alot of the "quackery" stuff too. I listened to vets and the solutions they had for me killed a dog, along with the horrible food, the constant vaccinating, the unending antibiotics, the flea, heartworm, etc etc chemicals, surgeries to clean teeth, blah de blah de blah unending. I will never, ever, ever take a vet's word for anything again. People like Dr. Becker have showed me I don't have to blindly follow any "expert" and that I should think for myself. It's my dog, after all. And I have to say I've done a darn sight better than the vets I used to listen to.

having said that, I do use ivermectin on my dogs for heartworm. It's one of the two things - the other being rabies vaccines - that I do because I think it's a better alternative than holistics.


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## BearMurphy (Feb 29, 2012)

DaViking said:


> Thank god cops aren't there to enforce their own personal beliefs. C'mon, members here go on a tear about individuals and professions all the time. I could sit here a whole week collecting thread links to inflammatory remarks, rudeness and condescending attitude from *a lot* of ppl. The more or less lack of indignation just means ppl can't be bothered with mindless bickering all the time. Just move on and comfort yourself with the fact that nothing's gonna change anyway. Mercola will still make money and monster got something of his chest. You can choose to fill up the pages with bickering but it won't add value to DFC.


I go to this forum to hear valuable opinions from people with real knowledge like you and Liz. I like hearing both sides and I like people debating because it can lead to the discovery of new information. I just don't like when someone is constantly posting inflammatory remarks purely to get a reaction. It contributes to the "us vs them" mentality this forum is prone to and it causes people to stop posting

By the way, the title of this particular thread bothers me more than the content of this post because it's generally offensive to people who use holistic medicine. I wouldn't start a thread that said "All the people who follow conventional veterinary medicine are sheep".....Before anyone gets upset, I don't believe that, but if I did and started a thread that way a lot of people would be offended.


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## MollyWoppy (Mar 19, 2010)

Trouble is, new people coming on here for help and they are subject to his mantra and hate for raw feeding, a couple of higher end kibble manufacturers and the entire holistic community. Everyone is entitled to their point of view and he has provided some helpful information on various occasions, but when it comes to 'hate' threads like this one, when he twists the truth to suit his own agenda, and that is when something has to be said. He does come across as rude, elitist and downright condescending, which is unfortunate as this attitude is driving good, knowledgeable people away in droves. It's almost like he wants to take over DFC, to turn it into a ideological group where only his ideas, opinion and recommendations are allowed.


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## Liz (Sep 27, 2010)

It is nice to see so many people taking more charge of their animals health. I know so many here are concerned about diet whether you feed processed or raw, if you are hear it is because you care and I, for one applaud that. This trends towards seeking diagnosis and looking at all the venues of treatment for your dog is newer and inspires me. My own 8 year old collie was healed of open pyometra with herbs and hocus pocus  at home. The vets I went to gave her a 20% chance of coming through spay surgery and absolutely refused to discuss anti biotic alternatives to treat her. Homeopathics was her last chance. Three weeks later she was healthy. 6 months later produced a stunning litter of 3 pups all three who are on their way to being shown. I was also told is she pulled through somehow from the infection she would be sterile. I guess not.  Herbs and Hocus Pocus also gave me my old male for about 6 months longer when he was diagnosed with cancer. We use allopathic medicine when called for my cancer boy was treated quite a few times with no help in sight other than put him to sleep. I had more good time with him before I had to make that decision and it was priceless. 

Monster's Dad is on my ignore list also, I just hope new people can see through his acerbic maliciousness and find the value in others posts.


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## bett (Mar 15, 2012)

monster'sdad said:


> That's fine you can all have your own club. As for her story, I did read the entire thing and her purpose was to scare people which it did if you read the comments. Scare, not inform, and them market her junk.


 I read it, didnt get scared at all, and what " junk" was she marketing?
I might be interested.

I actually went back so i could read the comments and actually laughed out loud from the comments from 'spinone', yet another alias ( perhaps my spelling is off but ...) and those posts were the only rude ones, of all the comments.


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## FBarnes (Feb 17, 2013)

Liz said:


> It is nice to see so many people taking more charge of their animals health. I know so many here are concerned about diet whether you feed processed or raw, if you are hear it is because you care and I, for one applaud that. This trends towards seeking diagnosis and looking at all the venues of treatment for your dog is newer and inspires me. My own 8 year old collie was healed of open pyometra with herbs and hocus pocus  at home. The vets I went to gave her a 20% chance of coming through spay surgery and absolutely refused to discuss anti biotic alternatives to treat her. Homeopathics was her last chance. Three weeks later she was healthy. 6 months later produced a stunning litter of 3 pups all three who are on their way to being shown. I was also told is she pulled through somehow from the infection she would be sterile. I guess not.  Herbs and Hocus Pocus also gave me my old male for about 6 months longer when he was diagnosed with cancer. We use allopathic medicine when called for my cancer boy was treated quite a few times with no help in sight other than put him to sleep. I had more good time with him before I had to make that decision and it was priceless.
> 
> Monster's Dad is on my ignore list also, I just hope new people can see through his acerbic maliciousness and find the value in others posts.


If that is quackery, you can just call me Quack Quack


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## RawPitbulls (Feb 7, 2013)

FBarnes said:


> If that is quackery, you can just call me Quack Quack


I second that!


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## Roo (Oct 17, 2010)

"Talk to your vet about using prednisone in a pulse type fashion versus a whole bunch all the time. Also, *there is an herbal called lymphomax that I use * in addition to raw meat, antioxidants and omega 3 fish oil. I was able to keep mine going for almost 2 years when he had LSA." -Dr. Tim
http://dogfoodchat.com/forum/dog-health-issues-question/10747-just-diagnosed-w-lymphosarcoma-4.html

I guess MD would probably consider Dr. Tim a "quack" as well, since he has used an herbal method to treat a health condition.


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## DaneMama (Jun 27, 2008)

I'm no longer a mod so there's nothing I can do. New mods have already been suggested to the admin.....not sure where its going from there.


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## Celt (Dec 27, 2010)

If no one reads/responds then the thread will die rather quickly and if there's no responses then the thread "disappears" so if you don't like, don't respond. Not even with a "this is ____" response. So just tell yourself to leave it be and go on.


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## FBarnes (Feb 17, 2013)

Celt said:


> If no one reads/responds then the thread will die rather quickly and if there's no responses then the thread "disappears" so if you don't like, don't respond. Not even with a "this is ____" response. So just tell yourself to leave it be and go on.


In my experience - I've not been here long but I've been around other places while - that just doesn't happen very often. Besides, I like to look up stuff. I have found that normally when people make broad statements condemning something or praising something else, there is another point of view, research, etc. Even trolls have their uses - I have learned alot by just checking out stuff.

My opinion of the fish oil is that I don't think it helps. Others' opinions are wildly different than mine - and with good reason if it helps their dogs. I gave glucosomine supps to a dog that is now deceased and I thought it helped quite a bit. Maybe others - no. But everything is an opportunity to learn.


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

every forum has a monster's dad.....

and sometimes threads will burst into flame, as he is wont to do with every word he utters.

respond. don't respond.....or just enjoy the show.

i don't post here very much anymore because i used to react or respond to this particular, peculiar type of rantings about seemingly everything.....no matter what or where the posts are....

but....as has been said so often...opinions? everyone has them. some of us have better educated ones than others...my own vet, who is a tradition, not holistic vet, does not support the use of ivermectin, but what does he know. he is just a vet.

i have one of those open pyometra cured by hocus pocus puppies from liz. he is, quite frankly, magnificent and filled with health.

all of my dogs are treated with hocus pocus holistics....until it is time not to. and my vet is there, waiting to help me enthusiastically for those times when traditional medicine is called for. 

there is room in this world for many philosophies. 

the problem with not listening and just ranting for the sake of ranting ...well....monster's dad lives in a very small world. 

tunnel visioned people have very little to offer other than distraction and disruption.


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## DaViking (Sep 27, 2011)

I have two things to say about this thread

*1) You made your bed, now lay in it*

*2) Smelling crucifixion the keyboards heat up*

Actually four things

*3) Reading this thread I guess it's free for all to resort to namecalling now, something I strongly disagree with but it is what it is*

*4) This forum need new mods for all sections*


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## CorgiPaws (Mar 31, 2009)

A few things... 

1. The people complaining about a lack of presence from the mods are the SAME EXACT people who DID NOT report this thread. Moderators are people with lives, too. We do not always have time to read through every single thread on DFC to make sure people aren't acting like rude children. If there's something that needs mod attention, then report it. It's that simple. This thread was reported by exactly two people. Once yesterday (I was busy in business meetings, not sure at all where the heck Caty is....) 

2. Please do not report and thread/ post... AND THEN CONTRIBUTE TO IT. It's childish, makes more work for the mods, degrades the integrity of DFC, and there's just no reason for it. 

3. New moderators will be added shortly. It's needed to happen for a while, and I've been in contact with admin to make it happen. Please just remember a few things with your new mod team: rules are a two way street. If you want them enforced on other people, they'll be enforced on you as well. DFC has gone downhill, it's disappointing especially for those of us who have been around 4-5 years and know how awesome it once was. Let's get it back! Everyone gets upset with the mods when we actually mod... and then we get slammed when things slip through. We're human, too. I apologize for the recent lack in moderation, and rest assured I'm working on it. Like the last 45 minutes spent cleaning up THIS mess....


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