# Teaching Emma to bow



## PunkyPug (Apr 4, 2012)

Having a bit of difficulty with bow. I'll get a video up soon to better explain. 

I read online a method to teaching Bow:
_With your dog in a stand position, take a treat and hold it near the floor, under his nose. As your dog reaches down to get it (he may try to lie down), slip your hand under his belly to hold his rear end up. Hold him in that position and say, "Take a bow." Keep the treat right by his nose, but don't feed him. Stay there for just a second, release him, and then feed the treat._
Credit to: How To Love Your Dog - How To Do The Tricks!

Now. My issue is, when I put my hand under her belly she suddenly becomes submissive like. Rounds her back. Tried to lay down or roll over. Avoids my eye contact and the lure. And if I block her from laying down or rolling over she'll completely freeze up. :helpme:

What do I do when she does this? Normally I'd stop teaching and get her to do a few tricks she has down. Let her have tons of praise n such. Basically get her to shake it off by doing some playin as well. All that usually works great. But we try again....same results


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## Maxy24 (Mar 5, 2011)

I tried it that way with Phoebe and it sort of failed. She was very unreliable. She would bow when my foot was there (I used my foot instead of my hand since she's small) and would sometimes bow when it wasn't, I never got a very strong behavior though. With Tucker I just captured it, waited until he stretched himself and marked/rewarded it. If I were you I would either do that (if your dog tends to stretch) or shape it. Hold a treat on the floor and reward for any movement that is sort of like a bow until you can get the whole behavior.


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## Deaf Dogs (Apr 10, 2012)

I was having issues teaching Oliver to bow as well. I decided to use a target stick. I use clicker training though, so it's alot easier to quickly mark the correct position before their butt goes down. I could never use and physical pressure to teach Oliver anything, he get's nervous. With the target stick, you first teach them to nose target it. then after the dog is solid on that, you move the target stick under the dog''s chin, so her head moves down, then a little lower, towards their chest, then just below their chest, between the legs, then between the legs, halfway down, then finally, between the paws. clicking only when the butt is still in the air, and feeding them in a stand position. dont feed them while they're in position, click then hold the food so they stand to get the reward.

I got his bow so good, that I was able to use it to teach another behaviour he was having trouble with: Cross Paws. He doesn't move sideways if he's in a bow.


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## StdPooDad (Mar 16, 2012)

Just my opinion, but I would use shaping and clicker training to teach bow. That's how I've done it with my dogs. It only takes a few minutes.

Joe



PunkyPug said:


> Having a bit of difficulty with bow. I'll get a video up soon to better explain.
> 
> I read online a method to teaching Bow:
> _With your dog in a stand position, take a treat and hold it near the floor, under his nose. As your dog reaches down to get it (he may try to lie down), slip your hand under his belly to hold his rear end up. Hold him in that position and say, "Take a bow." Keep the treat right by his nose, but don't feed him. Stay there for just a second, release him, and then feed the treat._
> ...


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## PunkyPug (Apr 4, 2012)

StdPooDad said:


> Just my opinion, but I would use shaping and clicker training to teach bow. That's how I've done it with my dogs. It only takes a few minutes.
> 
> Joe


Clicker training is the same thing as using a "lure" the only difference is the option to use or not use treats.
TYVM of your input tho.


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## StdPooDad (Mar 16, 2012)

Um no, with clicker training you do *not* use a lure. You're probably thinking of "training with a clicker" I know I thought for years that I was doing clicker training, when in fact all I was doing was lure training, but I happened to have a clicker. Training with a clicker is doing whatever it takes to get the finished behavior, then clicking and treating. 

I have no idea where you got your information, but nothing could be further from the truth.:smile:

By contrast, clicker training or marker training makes use of shaping. For instance to teach bow.
-start in an area with low distractions, like your living room
-stand there with a clicker and treats and wait for your dog to do something to click
-it can be anything, a head bob, maybe he's starting to sniff the ground. Or a bent front leg, anything that *leads* to the behavior you want. 
-In no time, your dog will figure out what gets a click (therefore a treat), and what doesn't.

The cool thing is that it's your dog figuring it out, not you luring him or physically pressing him into position. 




PunkyPug said:


> Clicker training is the same thing as using a "lure" the only difference is the option to use or not use treats.
> TYVM of your input tho.


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## Maxy24 (Mar 5, 2011)

Like stdpoodad said, with using a clicker or marker word you can do what's called free shaping and never lure the dog. You can click for looking on the fl0or, lowering head, bending arms, etc. until the dog bows. I said to use a treat and shape (different from free shaping as you still use a lure, but is considered shaping as you reward for approximations of the behavior) simply because it might move things along faster for a dog whose never been shaped before.
Here are some examples of free shaping a bow
clicker training boxer to bow using free shaping - YouTube

This lady rewards lying down WAY too much, so look out for that
Shaping a dog to "bow" - YouTube

Remember to give the treat low so that the dog stays in position as you reward (even if he breaks position after you click/mark you can reward, but still reward low, on the ground so his head must stay down)


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## bridget246 (Oct 26, 2011)

I heard you can train this by waiting for your dog to stretch. Whenever they do give it a name "bow" and a treat.


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## StdPooDad (Mar 16, 2012)

That's true. That's called "capturing the behavior" I couldn't ever get that, so I just shaped the behavior. 

However, on another note, I noticed that Teaghan would sort of jump up on her hind legs whenever I leaned over and slapped my palms on my thighs in sort of a play bow. I captured that and refined it with shaping, so now she sits up and waggles her front feet when I play bow.



bridget246 said:


> I heard you can train this by waiting for your dog to stretch. Whenever they do give it a name "bow" and a treat.


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## Maxy24 (Mar 5, 2011)

Yeah I trained my own dog to bow completely through capturing. He stretches when he gets frustrated (he also sneezes so I could put that on cue too if I wanted). So I just started a training session, asked for a few commands and rewarded, then stopped asking for anything and stood there. He didn't know what was happened and got frustrated and stretched, I clicked and treated and waited again. He stretched again after another minute and then he had it down from there and started repeating it over and over. Then I added in the verbal cue.


You could easily do that if your dog bows during play with you. Wiggle around a tug toy or something and mark-reward when the dog bows.


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## Deaf Dogs (Apr 10, 2012)

Maxy24 said:


> Like stdpoodad said, with using a clicker or marker word you can do what's called free shaping and never lure the dog. You can click for looking on the floor, lowering head, bending arms, etc. until the dog bows. I said to use a treat and shape (different from free shaping as you still use a lure, but is considered shaping as you reward for approximations of the behavior) simply because it might move things along faster for a dog whose never been shaped before.
> Here are some examples of free shaping a bow
> clicker training boxer to bow using free shaping - YouTube
> 
> ...


See, I found that rewarding Oliver when he was in position made him lay down quickly, where as if I clicked then made him stand up to get the food, he completely stopped laying down. It's too much effort to lay down, then have to get up for the treat, so he stopped laying down.

A click means the behaviour is done anyway, and dogs that properly understand this dont need to be rewarded in position after the click, the click is enough.

As to the term Free Shaping, you dont quite have that right. Free shaping is when you dont really have a goal in mind, you just click for something the dog does, and it evolves from there.


Shaping is when you have a goal, and use only the clicker to get the dog to do what you want. I often start out with shaping, but get a funny behaviour, so it ends up free shaping something totally different. Free Shaping often evolves into shaping, as you decide you like some behaviour the dog gave, so you focus on turning that behaviour into something you want.

Mouse learned to pray with free shaping. I had a beam I'd put up for Oliver's balance tricks. After I was done working with Oliver, I grabbed Mouse to see what she'd do with it. She understands that she needs to offer behaviours, so she started offering, and before I knew it, she was praying! Within that one session, she'd learned to pray on cue. and it's now one of her favorite tricks!

Mouse is so good at offering behaviours, that alot of times shaping becomes free shaping, because she has offered a funny behaviour that I like, so we go off on a tangent. I ended up with her nodding her head "saying yes" when I started out shaping her to do a backwards weave between cans... I still haven't got that one yet LOL


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## Maxy24 (Mar 5, 2011)

> See, I found that rewarding Oliver when he was in position made him lay down quickly, where as if I clicked then made him stand up to get the food, he completely stopped laying down. It's too much effort to lay down, then have to get up for the treat, so he stopped laying down.
> 
> A click means the behaviour is done anyway, and dogs that properly understand this dont need to be rewarded in position after the click, the click is enough.


I suppose everyone must do what works best for their dog. My rationale for rewarding low is that it can help keep the dog in position which is important for any sort of behavior you want duration for. If the dog thinks the treat will be coming to where he is on the ground he won't feel the urge to pop up after bowing. A dog who thinks the treat comes while he's standing may bow and quickly pop up to receive his reward (like some dogs who sit when told and then quickly pop up). But of course duration can be built in later as the next criteria, it just may take longer. But if it solved the lie down problem it was likely worth it. Sometimes the lying down can be prevented by pushing the reward into the dog a bit, like sliding it towards the chest.


I've always heard of free shaping as being without lures or prompts whereas regular shaping can have them but you are still shaping because you are only getting approximations of the behavior and are still working towards the entire thing. I agree that regular shaping must always have a goal since you are the one using a prompt/lure to move the behavior in the right direction. But I believe free shaping can be with or without a goal. The dog must offer all of the behaviors on his own but you still shape them to go where you want them to go. Most resources I've read agree with that definition.


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## Deaf Dogs (Apr 10, 2012)

Karen Prior, the mother of clickertraining (how I think of her, she didn't "invent" it per se, but she defined it and brought it to the world) Defines shaping, and free shaping that way, as does a trick/clicker training forum I'm on.

I'm looking through KP's libraries right now, trying to find a definition... bear with me a moment


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## Deaf Dogs (Apr 10, 2012)

ok so I couldn't find anything specific to definintions in KP's library, but I did find this one.

Fun Training Techniques for You and Your Canine! - Whole Dog Journal Article

It defines and uses examples for specific training styles


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## Deaf Dogs (Apr 10, 2012)

Here's a good blog to explain it

Tricky Free-Time (free-shaping) | Honey the Great Dane


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## Maxy24 (Mar 5, 2011)

Agree to disagree I suppose, or perhaps agree that there is no set in stone definition.

Here Dog Tricks | Resources | Dr. Sophia Yin, DVM, MS it says:


> you may want to try your hand at free-shaping, where you just mark an interesting behavior using a click or verbal marker followed by a treat. Mark the same interesting behavior as the pet performs it, repeatedly. Once he seems to know it well, then start marking (and rewarding) a behavior closer to your goal behavior


I am reading Agility Right from the Start and they refer to free shaping as:


> When free shaping you work totally hand off, forming new behaviors by rewarding the tiniest increments of the desired behavior and building it from there.


This article doesn't give an outright definition for free shaping but it sounded like in some sessions of free shaping she had a goal in mind and in others, ones with especially shut down dogs, she didn't.
Articles: The Magic of Shaping by Pamela Dennison at Positive Motivation Dog Training!


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## Deaf Dogs (Apr 10, 2012)

Yeah I saw that one by Pam a while back, I was unimpressed that she didn't know the proper terminology for free shaping. She is using the term free shaping to mean shaping. It sucks when people dont use terms the way they are supposed to be used (the definition by Karen Prior in her books "Reaching the Animal Mind", and "Dont Shoot the Dog" is what I take as correct, as she is the original) 

But hey, the technical definition for neutering is de-sexing dogs (both male and female) and yet, we use it only to mean male LOL Terminology often gets mixed up. Kinda like people using "Pit Bull" to encompass all bully breeds of that type. It's wrong, but that's what people use, and you have to go with it.


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## StdPooDad (Mar 16, 2012)

love the videos. When I was just starting out clicker training (gees, I make it sound like I'm a grizzled veteran. I've been doing it for maybe 6 weeks)

Aaaanyway...I was wondering how to teach Teaghan to back up, googled "teaching a dog to back up" and found a Honeydog video.





Deaf Dogs said:


> Here's a good blog to explain it
> 
> Tricky Free-Time (free-shaping) | Honey the Great Dane


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## StdPooDad (Mar 16, 2012)

I'm confused. Maxy24 said to reward in the position, but you seem to think otherwise. Yet you say that Oliver stopped laying down when you stopped rewarding him in position. I'm clearly missing something.

Joe



Deaf Dogs said:


> See, I found that rewarding Oliver when he was in position made him lay down quickly, where as if I clicked then made him stand up to get the food, he completely stopped laying down. It's too much effort to lay down, then have to get up for the treat, so he stopped laying down.


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## Deaf Dogs (Apr 10, 2012)

I click when he's in position, but hold the treat in a way he has to stand to get it. He totally quit laying down after the click because it was too much work to have to stand up again. Maxi24 is saying to give the treat in position to promote a longer duration, but as the click signals the end of the behaviour anyway, I dont see that being alot of use for a dog that lays down pretty fast. And once the click is given you have to follow that with a reward, so if the dog lays down, you still have to give the food. By feeding Ollie in a stand, thereby preventing him from laying down, he very quickly learned that laying down gets him absolutely nothing, and totally stopped doing it. Yes he pops up after the click, but he stays in a bow for as long as it takes for me to click. I get duration from waiting to click, instead of feeding him in the position. Both ways will work, depending on the dog, however. There is no one answer, every dog is different.


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## StdPooDad (Mar 16, 2012)

OK. I totally forgot that the OP was asking about a bow, and not a down. 

Joe



Deaf Dogs said:


> I click when he's in position, but hold the treat in a way he has to stand to get it. He totally quit laying down after the click because it was too much work to have to stand up again. Maxi24 is saying to give the treat in position to promote a longer duration, but as the click signals the end of the behaviour anyway, I dont see that being alot of use for a dog that lays down pretty fast. And once the click is given you have to follow that with a reward, so if the dog lays down, you still have to give the food. By feeding Ollie in a stand, thereby preventing him from laying down, he very quickly learned that laying down gets him absolutely nothing, and totally stopped doing it. Yes he pops up after the click, but he stays in a bow for as long as it takes for me to click. I get duration from waiting to click, instead of feeding him in the position. Both ways will work, depending on the dog, however. There is no one answer, every dog is different.


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