# How much homemade food to feed



## GSP-OWNER (Dec 8, 2009)

Hello, 

I have two GSP puppies, 13 weeks old. They are currently getting fed a total of 4 cups/day dry kibble. If I were to use a homemade recipe (meat, brown rice and a veggie) and cook for them would 1 cup of homemade food equal one cup of dry kibble? Or is there a difference in volume with one being dry and the other moist?

Thanks.


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## malluver1005 (Nov 15, 2009)

Hi...I also cook for my big boy. I boil salmon for him, but give him raw veggies. I mix this in with his dinner. He gets 1 cup of kibble only in the morning, and 1 cup of kibble and about 1.5-2 cups of salmon and veggies. I don't know if 1 cup of homemade would equal 1 cup of kibble. I really don't think kibble and moist foods are measured the same way. If I were you, I would start of with a little of meat, rice, and veggies and see how your pups do from there. If they gain a few pounds then cut back. If they start to lose a few, add some more. This is how I was with Aspen. I never really measured things out, except for his kibble... :smile:


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## claybuster (Dec 18, 2008)

malluver1005 said:


> Hi...I also cook for my big boy. I boil salmon for him, but give him raw veggies. ...


RAW VEGGIES...OMG.


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## malluver1005 (Nov 15, 2009)

claybuster said:


> RAW VEGGIES...OMG.


Yeah, it's working for us believe it or not. He's had them since he was about 1.5 years old. And now he's 4. He's never had diarrhea or other negative things because of the veggies...And he loves them!!


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## RawFedDogs (Jun 16, 2008)

malluver1005 said:


> Yeah, it's working for us believe it or not. He's had them since he was about 1.5 years old. And now he's 4. He's never had diarrhea or other negative things because of the veggies...And he loves them!!


Other than not giving him diarrhea, how are the veggies working?


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## malluver1005 (Nov 15, 2009)

RawFedDogs said:


> Other than not giving him diarrhea, how are the veggies working?


Well, I've heard that canines can't digest them properly. Especially carrots. He does fine on them...His poops are always healthy looking and he only goes once a day...No carrots or other veggies in the poop, ever!!

If they don't come out in the poop, I just don't get how he isn't benefiting from them. And I probably never will because I've had lots of people tell me not to give veggies. Why not? He's digesting them fine and he's never had any problems...

About a year ago, I had him on Pro Plan. I know I know, I didn't know anything about dog nutrition. He was on veggies already. But not fish. He looked and acted as good as he does now, so I'm thinking the veggies helped him. I'm sure the kibble didn't...

My brother had a purebred Akita that lived to be 17!! His diet was kibble, little bits of meat and lots of veggies. I've seen countless dogs an a similar diet that live to be really old...


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## FarmFreshDogs (Dec 14, 2009)

*Wild vs. Domestic*

Please correct me if I am wrong.

But wild dogs, whom eat exclusively all raw meat diet. Tend to also eat grasses and the like in order to balance out fiber intake. Now I may be wrong but grass type plants are vegetables in nature aren't they? So I do not see how a dog on a natural diet would have problems digesting vegetables. The only difference I see with wild canines, and domesticated canines, is that Domesticated canines are use to human contact, and for the most part trained in some manner. Where as wild canines receive neither. Biologically they are exactly the same. 
As with anything in life, when beginning something new, either for yourself or your household pets. Always start out slowly and monitor your 'experiment' closely to ensure the results you wish to obtain, and ensure little to no adverse side effects occur. Always use your sound judgment as a basis to modify or cease the changed item in any way.

Sincerest Regards;
FarmFreshDogs


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## vtbouvs (Jan 10, 2010)

Ok I see a repeat of what happened with my question below... She asked HOW MUCH To FEED... Not if Veggies should be added...
From the information I have found you start with the the same formula as raw.. 1-3% of the dogs body weight and adjust from that point... I hope this is helpful...


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## RawFedDogs (Jun 16, 2008)

malluver1005 said:


> If they don't come out in the poop, I just don't get how he isn't benefiting from them. And I probably never will because I've had lots of people tell me not to give veggies. Why not? He's digesting them fine and he's never had any problems...


He isn't benefiting from them because with is dentation, he is incapable of crushing the cellulose layer around the plant cells. Without the cellulose layer being penetrated, no nutrition can escape. It doesn't mean it will cause him a problem. It just means that he can't derive any nutrition from them.



> About a year ago, I had him on Pro Plan. I know I know, I didn't know anything about dog nutrition. He was on veggies already. But not fish. He looked and acted as good as he does now, so I'm thinking the veggies helped him. I'm sure the kibble didn't...


It would be nice if that were the case but it isn't.



> My brother had a purebred Akita that lived to be 17!! His diet was kibble, little bits of meat and lots of veggies. I've seen countless dogs an a similar diet that live to be really old...


I have known old people who smoked all their lives. It doesn't mean the cigarettes contributed to their longevity.


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## RawFedDogs (Jun 16, 2008)

FarmFreshDogs said:


> Please correct me if I am wrong.


You are. :smile:



> But wild dogs, whom eat exclusively all raw meat diet. Tend to also eat grasses and the like in order to balance out fiber intake. Now I may be wrong but grass type plants are vegetables in nature aren't they? So I do not see how a dog on a natural diet would have problems digesting vegetables.


A couple of points that you missed. Yes, most dogs from time to time will graze on grass. No one really knows why. Most of the time it is vomited back pretty quickly, usually within minutes. It looks the same as when it went in except it is mixed in a yellowish bile. If it isn't thrown up, it will come out the anus still looking like it did when it went in except it is twisted in a little rope. I don't have a clue how they make it into that rope. :smile: Since it looks the same coming back out either end, you can't say it was digested or any nutrients are derived from it.


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## rannmiller (Jun 27, 2008)

Yeah, I'd also recommend starting off with about 3% of their body weight since they're just puppies and at this point, you want them to gain weight. This is harder to determine since you're mixing kibble with cooked so what I would recommend is just do as malluver said with the amounts and gauge their weight gain. If they start to get fat just cut them back a little, since puppies, like adult dogs, are not supposed to be overweight, and it can cause a whole mess of health problems later on if they're overweight while trying to grow. 

I would also recommend cooking any veggies you add because that helps break down the cellulose walls (something dogs are incapable of doing) so the pups can actually attempt to derive some sort of nutrients out of it. If you notice their stools getting softer on this diet, try cutting out the veggies and see if that firms things up.


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## Todd (Jan 13, 2010)

RawFedDogs said:


> He isn't benefiting from them because with is dentation, he is incapable of crushing the cellulose layer around the plant cells. Without the cellulose layer being penetrated, no nutrition can escape. It doesn't mean it will cause him a problem. It just means that he can't derive any nutrition from them.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



what if u puree the vegetables? can they use the nutrients then?


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## CorgiPaws (Mar 31, 2009)

Todd said:


> what if u puree the vegetables? can they use the nutrients then?


it's debatable. But does it sound like a natural diet to you? I've never seen dogs in the wild pureeing their food.
just sayin'


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## Todd (Jan 13, 2010)

CorgiPaws said:


> it's debatable. But does it sound like a natural diet to you? I've never seen dogs in the wild pureeing their food.
> just sayin'


you make a very good point. ill keep that in mind. thx


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## RawFedDogs (Jun 16, 2008)

Todd said:


> what if u puree the vegetables? can they use the nutrients then?


Don't know but there is no reason to. There are no nutrients a dog needs that is in plant matter that isn't in meat, bones, and organs of prey animals.


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## Samble (Aug 6, 2010)

From what I've read, it seems that dogs difficulty with digesting vegetables is also due to their having a far shorter digestive tract than humans and many other animals. Many dogs that I've seen have a propensity for swallowing large chunks of food/things. It seems as though vegetables that have been shredded/grated/chopped finely would provide nutritional benefit as they would be much more easily utilized than a chunk of carrot the size of someones thumb. Also, it seems that there will be just as many or more opponents of any holistic dog diet than there are people who adamantly support it. In any case, vegetables in any form are better than the euthanized shelter and zoo animals that go into so many commercial dog foods.


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## Esme (Oct 4, 2010)

I am new here and this may not be the best way to start of but I have to disagree. Dogs need veggies, grains and fruits just like we do. We have changed dogs over thousand of years and they now need the the vitamins, nutrients and minerals that they get from those along with what they get from the meat. I have done a lot of reaserch on this and yes everyone is entitled to their own opinion but just use common sense, dogs have eaten our table sraps since we domesticated them thouands of years ago and now they have evloved to need basically what we need just in different proportions. Dogs are not the same as wolves anymore and haven't been in a long time. And to top it off she didn't ask whether to feed veggies she asked how much to feed, and to answer that I would agree to go with bodyweight and feed 2 to 3% of that and then see how they do if they lose weight feed more and if they gain weight lessen the food or you can add more veggies to keep them full but not pack on the pounds and with large breeds it is better to keep them lean so they can develop properly. I would say if they are getting 4 cups all together start with that and just monitor them carefully and add and decrease as neccesary as they grow. But please also add some calcium and omega3 to their food also. I have a lot more I can add but I will leave it at that.


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## Esme (Oct 4, 2010)

I did forget to add that you should defenitly puree the veggies so that they can digest them and get the vitamins.


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## sassymaxmom (Dec 7, 2008)

Hi Esme. 

Have you analyzed the meals you make with and without veggies and grains? I am just amazed at how nutritious plain meat is. Add some liver and bone for calcium and it is just about perfect. I do need to add a bit of magnesium, manganese and zinc to a raw meat/organ/bone diet plus vitamin E for Max as he is a senior and must watch his figure but that is about it. 

To figure amounts I did it by weighing the ingredients and using a nutrient calculator to make up a recipe Nutrition facts, calories in food, labels, nutritional information and analysis – NutritionData.com and compared my recipe to the calories fed in the kibble. Only a starting point though. Since back when I started cooking for Sassy I hadn't a clue as to how many calories was in that kibble so I just started with 20 calories per pound of dog and adjusted from there. Some days that 1000 calories weighed 24 ounces and some days 17 ounces. Annoying it varied so much but that was the reason I always weighed the ingredients rather than counting on volume measure.


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## RawFedDogs (Jun 16, 2008)

Esme said:


> I am new here and this may not be the best way to start of but I have to disagree. Dogs need veggies, grains and fruits just like we do.


Dogs are carnivores and as such have no need for any plant material in their diet.



> We have changed dogs over thousand of years and they now need the the vitamins, nutrients and minerals that they get from those along with what they get from the meat.


Exactly what vitamins, nutrients, and minerals do you think they get from plant matter that the don't get from meat, bones, and organs?



> I have done a lot of reaserch on this and yes everyone is entitled to their own opinion but just use common sense, dogs have eaten our table sraps since we domesticated them thouands of years ago and now they have evloved to need basically what we need just in different proportions.


We don't know that they have eaten table scraps for thousands of years. Thats just a supposition. A few thousand years is not enough to evolve to anything. During this time of evolving, how did their jaw structure evolve? Their dentation? Their pancreas and liver? Their stomach? Their intestines? ALL of these things would have had to evolve to make dogs capable of digesting plant matter. In fact, they haven't changed. They are exactly the same as the wild wolf of today.



> Dogs are not the same as wolves anymore and haven't been in a long time.


Yes, they are. _"The English word dog, in common usage, refers to the domestic pet dog, Canis lupus familiaris. The species was originally classified as Canis familiaris and Canis familiarus domesticus by Linnaeus in 1758.[10] In 1993, dogs were reclassified as a subspecies of the gray wolf, Canis lupus, by the Smithsonian Institution and the American Society of Mammalogists."_



> But please also add some calcium and omega3 to their food also. I have a lot more I can add but I will leave it at that.


A properly raw fed dog who is fed meat, bones, and organs will have calcium and O3's already in the diet naturally. :smile:


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## RawFedDogs (Jun 16, 2008)

Esme said:


> I did forget to add that you should defenitly puree the veggies so that they can digest them and get the vitamins.


That should tell you something. If their veggies must be pureed, doesn't that say that they don't need them cause they can't get them in nature? They would never have survived long enough to get domesticated if they needed veggies in their diet.


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## jdatwood (Apr 13, 2009)

Esme said:


> just use common sense, dogs have eaten our table sraps since we domesticated them thouands of years ago and now *they have evloved to need basically what we need just in different proportions*


Wait wait wait... you're joking right?

You're saying that because we've trained and bred dogs to coexist with us that they've taken on OUR nutritional needs??? 

I think you should go back and start your research over. Nobody in their right mind would EVER back that statement up


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## Esme (Oct 4, 2010)

I really could care less what all of yo think, I didn't ask for your opinion because I don't want or need it. But hey, let's do an experiment using your dogs because you obviously don't care about them anyways. Keep feeding your dog an all meat and bone diet and don't give any supplements or vitamins and get back to me in about six months and we'll see how that works out for you. Bet you won't cause you know I'm right. And unlike you I prefer natural not synthetic so if my dog can get all the nutrition she needs from food why would I put additional chemicals in her. I know some of you are already close minded , but why don't you do some more research and consult a holistic vet and nutritionist and you will see that yes there are people in their right mind who will back me. Oh! but do please get back to me on that experiment


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## Ania's Mommy (Feb 8, 2009)

I think that most all of the raw feeders on this board have done your "experiment", and have been doing so for much longer that 6 months with stellar results. http://dogfoodchat.com/forum/raw-feeding/2265-success-stories.html

And I assure you , we all care about our dogs. A lot. Enough to research what the best diet for them could be.


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## luvMyBRT (Mar 8, 2010)

Esme said:


> I really could care less what all of yo think, I didn't ask for your opinion because I don't want or need it. But hey, let's do an experiment using your dogs because you obviously don't care about them anyways. Keep feeding your dog an all meat and bone diet and don't give any supplements or vitamins and get back to me in about six months and we'll see how that works out for you. Bet you won't cause you know I'm right. And unlike you I prefer natural not synthetic so if my dog can get all the nutrition she needs from food why would I put additional chemicals in her. I know some of you are already close minded , but why don't you do some more research and consult a holistic vet and nutritionist and you will see that yes there are people in their right mind who will back me. Oh! but do please get back to me on that experiment




Oh my. This post has me laughing!!! You have GOT to be kidding me!!! Reading posts like this that make NO SENSE AT ALL are such a great stress reliever for me. Nothing like a really good laugh to end my day.


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## jdatwood (Apr 13, 2009)

Esme said:


> I really could care less what all of yo think, I didn't ask for your opinion because I don't want or need it. But hey, let's do an experiment using your dogs because you obviously don't care about them anyways. Keep feeding your dog an all meat and bone diet and don't give any supplements or vitamins and get back to me in about six months and we'll see how that works out for you. Bet you won't cause you know I'm right. And unlike you I prefer natural not synthetic so if my dog can get all the nutrition she needs from food why would I put additional chemicals in her. I know some of you are already close minded , but why don't you do some more research and consult a holistic vet and nutritionist and you will see that yes there are people in their right mind who will back me. Oh! but do please get back to me on that experiment




WOW, the newbie stoops to insults already? *sigh*

My wolf has been eating NOTHING but raw meat, bones & organs for 4 years now. She's in perfect health. 

The rest of our dogs have been eating nothing but raw meat, bones & organs for 2 years now. They too are in perfect health

There is ZERO need for vegetables in a dogs diet. They CANNOT process them in their natural state. 

Unlike me?? Synthetic???? There's not a SINGLE synthetic ingredient in my dogs diet. They eat nothing but RAW MEAT, BONES, & ORGANS. Can't get much more natural than that 

I guess we should start capturing wolves & wild dogs to make sure they're getting their daily allowance of pureed vegetables & vitamins 

It breaks my heart to think that I'm forcing these carnivores to live such a horrible life suffering from a vegetable & vitamin deficiency


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## Esme (Oct 4, 2010)

I was wondering why this forum seems so dead compared to others and unfortunately I see why. It is so sad to see the ugly side of dog owners who should be helping each other instead of having such a nasty attitude, but if that is your personality I guess it still would be hard to hide behind a computer screen. Jdatwood I really do wish you the best of luck because you do need it, it is obvious that you are a very unhappy person.


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## luvMyBRT (Mar 8, 2010)

Esme said:


> I was wondering why this forum seems so dead compared to others and unfortunately I see why. It is so sad to see the ugly side of dog owners who should be helping each other instead of having such a nasty attitude, but if that is your personality I guess it still would be hard to hide behind a computer screen. Jdatwood I really do wish you the best of luck because you do need it, it is obvious that you are a very unhappy person.


WOW!! What nerve!!! You came on first with the negative insults to all of us saying we don't care about our dogs! 

I wish YOU the best of luck...


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## jdatwood (Apr 13, 2009)

Esme said:


> I was wondering why this forum seems so dead compared to others and unfortunately I see why. It is so sad to see the ugly side of dog owners who should be helping each other instead of having such a nasty attitude, but if that is your personality I guess it still would be hard to hide behind a computer screen. Jdatwood I really do wish you the best of luck because you do need it, it is obvious that you are a very unhappy person.


Keep up the great work! You're really giving us some great amusement this evening. :biggrin:

I know I've been SOO nasty throwing around insults. I'm sorry I've been so mean.

And you know, you're absolutely correct. I am probably the MOST unhappy person in the world










What on earth will I ever do???


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## luvMyBRT (Mar 8, 2010)

Oh, Jon. You and Natalie do look like some of the most unhappy people ever. And I can totally tell that your dogs are suffering....where is their vitamins???? 

Hang on...I'll be right back. I need to go and puree some vegetables for my CARNIVORES. NOT.


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## jdatwood (Apr 13, 2009)

saraj2878 said:


> Oh, Jon. You and Natalie do look like some of the most unhappy people ever.


Well, I won't deny that I AM unhappy right now...




Unhappy that I need a haircut and more color in my hair :biggrin:


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## DaneMama (Jun 27, 2008)

Esme said:


> I really could care less what all of yo think, I didn't ask for your opinion because I don't want or need it. But hey, let's do an experiment using your dogs because you obviously don't care about them anyways. Keep feeding your dog an all meat and bone diet and don't give any supplements or vitamins and get back to me in about six months and we'll see how that works out for you. Bet you won't cause you know I'm right. And unlike you I prefer natural not synthetic so if my dog can get all the nutrition she needs from food why would I put additional chemicals in her. I know some of you are already close minded , but why don't you do some more research and consult a holistic vet and nutritionist and you will see that yes there are people in their right mind who will back me. Oh! but do please get back to me on that experiment




If you could care less....maybe you should. I think you meant to say "I couldn't care less" 

Either way, I think that you are getting a bit ahead of yourself here. Insults are not allowed or tolerated. While you haven't "name called" anyone, insinuating that we all don't care about our dogs is just a low blow. I really hope that you change your attitude because we are always up for having polite, members here!

This experiment that you say we should all try is being done as we speak, by hundreds of thousands of people world wide. Its called prey model raw or raw meaty bones diet. The BARF movement is on its way out as people are now realizing that veggies and other foods other than raw meats, bones and organs are completely unnecessary to a dog. 

While I choose to not feed veggies, I don't think that is me "not caring" about my dogs. Its just a differing opinion. I allow you to have yours so same should be granted to others, dontcha think?




Esme said:


> I was wondering why this forum seems so dead compared to others and unfortunately I see why. It is so sad to see the ugly side of dog owners who should be helping each other instead of having such a nasty attitude, but if that is your personality I guess it still would be hard to hide behind a computer screen. Jdatwood I really do wish you the best of luck because you do need it, it is obvious that you are a very unhappy person.


Its actually been gaining more and more members despite all the "raw" talk here. I think that people are realizing that raw meaty bones or prey model raw feeding styles are far more optimal than anything else. 

Oh, and I can attest to how happy Jon is...everyday! He makes me a very happy woman on a very regular basis :wink: :biggrin:

I really hope that you change your attitude, not necessarily what you choose to feed, but just how you speak to members on here. Happy posting!


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## RawFedDogs (Jun 16, 2008)

Esme said:


> I really could care less what all of yo think, I didn't ask for your opinion because I don't want or need it. But hey, let's do an experiment using your dogs because you obviously don't care about them anyways. Keep feeding your dog an all meat and bone diet and don't give any supplements or vitamins and get back to me in about six months and we'll see how that works out for you.




OK!! I've already done that and I'm still doing it. I have 2 Great Danes. Abby is 10 years old and I have been feeding her ONLY meat, bones, and organs for over 8 years. She has had NO and I mean NO plant material in her diet in that entire 8 years. 10 years old is very old for a Great Dane. 5 months ago the vet said she had the liver of a 3 year old. She is in perfect health other than a bad hip from an injury.

My 5 year old Dane, Thor, has never had plant material in his diet in his life. I began him on a prey model raw diet the day I brought him home at 12 weeks. He is in absolutely perfect health with lots of energy and enthusiasm for life. He couldn't be happier and neither could I.



> Bet you won't cause you know I'm right.


You are so far wrong as to not even be close. Carnivores who need plants in their diet. How silly. :smile:



> And unlike you I prefer natural not synthetic so if my dog can get all the nutrition she needs from food why would I put additional chemicals in her.


I don't give any supplements and never have except for glucosimine for Abby's hip. No chemicals at all. Nothing for nutrition at all.



> I know some of you are already close minded , but why don't you do some more research and consult a holistic vet and nutritionist and you will see that yes there are people in their right mind who will back me. Oh! but do please get back to me on that experiment


I have talked to so called holistic vets. Holistic vets are no different than other vets except they choose to put the word "Holistic" in front of the word "Vet" on their shingle. Being a Holistic vet requires no special training and most don't have it. Its a marketing gimmick.

Vet nutritionists were trained in the same vet schools as other vets and have the knowledge that Hill's wants them to have.

Consider yourself gotten back to. 8 years on a prey model raw diet wih no plant material or supplements is proof enough for me.


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## Esme (Oct 4, 2010)

Dailymotion - Wolves eating berries! - a Animals video 
I thought dogs and wolves were carnivores and didn't eat fruits or vegetables ?


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## Esme (Oct 4, 2010)

Dailymotion - Wolves eating strawberries! - a Animals video

Oh wait ! There's more!


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## DaneMama (Jun 27, 2008)

Of course they will eat berries in time of famine....not to mention they taste good :tongue:


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## jdatwood (Apr 13, 2009)

*sigh*

Nobody ever said that wolves don't eat berries. It's common knowledge that they do.

I like to have a nice cold hoppy beer (or 3) at the end of the day. It's not appropriate for my diet nor do I gain any nutrition from it. I just can't resist thought because it TASTES GOOD... :wink:

Wanna know how I know my carnivores don't need veggies? It's pretty simple...

I feed my dog a whole vegetable and guess what they poop out the next day... A WHOLE VEGETABLE

I feed my dog a whole chicken and what do they poop.... (this one is tough) the tiniest little poop. 90% of the meat & bone is GONE. I wonder if David Copperfield could pull of the same trick (he is quite an amazing magician)


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## luvMyBRT (Mar 8, 2010)

Esme said:


> Dailymotion - Wolves eating berries! - a Animals video
> I thought dogs and wolves were carnivores and didn't eat fruits or vegetables ?


Hummmm.....I wonder if you were to place a raspberry bush and a fresh deer kill next to each other which one they'd choose????

I'm pretty sure I know which they'd choose! 

Also, please explain to me why a wolves/dogs teeth are shaped the way they are? For eating plants? I think not.....


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## Esme (Oct 4, 2010)

Did I say they need them , NO , but you all said wolves are carnivores so they shouldn't eat berries. I still belive that dogs need veggies and fruit, grains maybe, haven't decided either way on that yet. My whole first post was saying that everyone has a diffrent opinion and it was wrong to say that they don't eat veggies because there has been no sientific study that shows without a doubt that dogs (not wolves) don't need them, that at least I have seen. If there is one that you have the name of and where to find it then maybe I could consider that possibility but untill then I'm sticking with feeding my baby veggies and anyone else who wants to should too. And to answer the last post they do have molars for grinding foods just like we do. One other thing that I found was the guy Dr. Billinghurst who created the BARF diet did include veggies and fruit in the diet. Just something to think about.


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## luvMyBRT (Mar 8, 2010)

Esme said:


> And to answer the last post they do have molars for grinding foods just like we do.


Really? So a dogs molar looks just like a humans molar? For sure they have molars, but not anywhere near what a humans look like. I'd go take a look inside your dogs mouth....


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## RachelsaurusRexU (Sep 4, 2010)

This thread has gotten highly amusing since the last time I checked it. Two whole new pages of pure entertainment... Gotta love it!


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## jdatwood (Apr 13, 2009)

Esme said:


> but you all said wolves are carnivores so they shouldn't eat berries.


No no no, they DO eat berries. They taste good. I think what you're missing here is that dogs lack the dentition AND digestive tract to extract nutrients from planet matter in a raw form.



Esme said:


> I still belive that dogs need veggies and fruit


Let's do an experiment (I'm not going to accuse you of not caring about your dogs though...)

Feed your dogs nothing but whole, raw, unprocessed vegetables for a day or two. Post up pictures of their poop after



Esme said:


> And to answer the last post they do have molars for grinding foods just like we do.


When was the last time you looked in a dogs mouth?  Their teeth are pointed and sharp for breaking bones & tearing meat. They DO NOT have flat teeth like omnivores & herbivores.

Open your dogs mouth and observe how the teeth come together as the jaw closes... Much like scissors. Certainly not designed for crushing the cell walls of plant material



Esme said:


> One other thing that I found was the guy Dr. Billinghurst who created the BARF diet did include veggies and fruit in the diet. Just something to think about.


You should do a little more research about Ian Billinghurst and his "BARF" diet
Raw Meaty Bones

Just something to think about :wink:


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## Esme (Oct 4, 2010)

I am sooooo over debating this with you people. You are absolutely unbelieveable!. I didn't say they look like ours I said they have them like we do! I have a wonderful husband, 2 beautiful kids and amazing friends to be spending my time with. Although they have all enjoyed looking at the ignorant comments you have made. Almost like a superbowl party, just more laughs. Get educated, get a life and get over yourselves. Although I do wish the best to your dogs, hopefully they won't have to pay for your mistakes.


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## RachelsaurusRexU (Sep 4, 2010)

Just keeps getting better! 

I may not be able to fall asleep but at least I have something to keep me amused.


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## RawFedDogs (Jun 16, 2008)

Esme said:


> I am sooooo over debating this with you people. You are absolutely unbelieveable!. I didn't say they look like ours I said they have them like we do, Dumbass! I have a wonderful husband, 2 beautiful kids and amazing friends to be spending my time with. Although they have all enjoyed looking at the ignorant comments you have made. Almost like a superbowl party, just more laughs. Get educated, get a life and get over yourselves. Although I do wish the best to your dogs, hopefully they won't have to pay for your mistakes.


Hehe, I think you are the one who is unbelievable. You have been presented with lots of evidence that dogs don't need plant material in their diet and you choose to ignore it. For example, my dogs are healthy and haven't had any plant material in over 8 years? How much more do you need than that? What nutrients are in plants that are not in the meat, bones, and organs of the prey animals that eat them? The answer to that is "None".

Dogs eating berries are like us eating cake, ice cream, candy, etc. It tastes wonderful but we would be better off if we didn't eat any of that stuff.

As for Billinghurst and his BARF diet, many people are like me and began feeding a BARF diet when I began feeding raw. After more research and observation of my dogs, after 3 or 4 months of feeding BARF, decided that the veggies are unnecessary. Everytime I fed them a veggie mix, they had diarrhea the next day. Billinghurst is in the business of selling premade patties. He can't be saying that dogs don't need veggies, yet sell patties that contain them now, can he? :smile:

Anyway, you have fun with your husband and kids. I know it upsets you to come here and find out that your beliefs are not quite what you thought they were. A carnivore eating plants ... hehe.


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## luvMyBRT (Mar 8, 2010)

Esme said:


> I didn't say they look like ours I said they have them like we do!


You still didn't answer my question. If you claim dogs/wolves are omnivores then WHY are their teeth shaped the way they are? I am assuming you have now looked into your dogs mouth by now and noticed that their teeth are made for tearing and riping meat and crunching through bone....this is why they are sharp.....all of them. Our molars are flat for breaking down and grinding plant matter, that is why we are omnivores.




> I have a wonderful husband, 2 beautiful kids and amazing friends to be spending my time with.


Good for you! :biggrin: Me too!!



> Although I do wish the best to your dogs, hopefully they won't have to pay for your mistakes.


Awww, thanks. :biggrin: But, it is your dogs that you need to be worried about. I'm not the one trying to feed my carnivores an unnatural diet that includes fruit and veggies.


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## jdatwood (Apr 13, 2009)

saraj2878 said:


> You still didn't answer my question.


Mine either... it's too easy to throw a tantrum and sling insults around when they don't get their way.


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

Esme said:


> I really could care less what all of yo think, I didn't ask for your opinion because I don't want or need it. But hey, let's do an experiment using your dogs because you obviously don't care about them anyways. Keep feeding your dog an all meat and bone diet and don't give any supplements or vitamins and get back to me in about six months and we'll see how that works out for you. Bet you won't cause you know I'm right. And unlike you I prefer natural not synthetic so if my dog can get all the nutrition she needs from food why would I put additional chemicals in her. I know some of you are already close minded , but why don't you do some more research and consult a holistic vet and nutritionist and you will see that yes there are people in their right mind who will back me. Oh! but do please get back to me on that experiment




my dogs are on meat, bones, and organs for seven months.

they are doing better than they did on kibble or home cooked.

they no longer need the dentals they were scheduled to have because they don't get sugar anymore which rots their teeth.

the action of eating raw makes gives their teeth, jaw muscles and neck muscles a great work out and they are stronger as a result.

this is back up by my vet, by the way, who examined them after six months on raw.

their coats are shiny, lustrous, and my almost eleven year old dog has stopped greying and is acting like a five year old.

my pug no longer has teeth issues, ear yeast infections, dry skin or goopy eyes.

physically, my dogs are muscular when they weren't before.

so i've done your experiment....and my dogs are 2000000000% in better shape than they've ever been in their entire lives.

oh, and by the way, my pug eats his bedding, which is polyester. 

he eats carrots when they fall on the floor from making our salad, the human salad, because carrots are sweet and who doesn't love sweet....

sweet feeds disease and rots their teeth and causes digestive changes including, but not limited to the pH of their systems.

note to self. read entire thread before posting.


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## CorgiPaws (Mar 31, 2009)

I spent one day away from DFC...
And I must say that I'm sorry I missed out on this joke. 
But, it was a hilarious start to a long day at work. 
:biggrin:

I spilled vanilla pudding with whipped cream last night, and Annie was more than happy to lick up the residue after wiping MOST of it up myself. 
I suppose since she was happy to eat it, it ought to be a staple in her diet. LOL


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## spookychick13 (Jan 26, 2010)

I have no idea how I missed this thread.

LOL!


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