# Why not?



## rannmiller

I'm just curious (and certainly not trying to attack anyone), why don't some people feed raw? 

I see a lot of people say, "I'm just not ready to do it." or "I just don't want to." So I'm just wondering what some of those reasons are. Why are some people not ready to and not sure they ever will be (come on this is feeding your dog, not having a baby). Some people say they just don't want to, but it's not like someone's asking you to kill your mom or do drugs. 

Sorry if this thread offends anyone, but I get these ambiguous answers a lot when I'm trying to convince people to stop feeding their dogs crappy kibble food too, yet I know all you kibble feeders would happily side with me on that argument. So when you're ripping your hair out wondering why your dog won't eat the kibble you put down, or gets horrendous bouts of diarrhea from it or other health issues, or has the world's worst food allergies and can only eat a certain brand at a certain time but only if it's purchased from a certain store, I guess the only question left is: why not try it? 

Believe me, I'm not trying to bully anyone into converting to raw, I'm simply curious. And maybe your answers can help me answer the doubts of other people out there who are frustrated with kibble but refuse to go raw for reasons unknown. Or even people who are frustrated with Pedigree but refuse to upgrade because "well my dog's been on it his whole life and I just don't want to change, even if he does have cancer, dry skin, excessive shedding, raging ear infections, is morbidly obese, and can barely walk." (not that any of you are on that boat, but you'd be surprised how many idiots I find who are like that... or maybe you wouldn't be surprised)


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## ChattyCathy

No offense taken! For me, at this point, since I'm "kinda" looking into it, it's a matter of laziness. Kibble is just easier to scoop out and put down on the floor. And, it seems like a lot of work to figure out what to get when feeding raw.... this could be wrong but I'm real confused. I didn't think bones were good for dogs and yet it's ok for them to eat chicken necks (??) And, then, when I think about it there's the mess raw chicken makes and I'd be constantly cleaning. (And, they (I don't know who they are) always say clean your hands after handling chicken before handling any other food, bla, bla, bla. So, what does that do to my floor?) These are just a few of my concerns. Don't knock me cuz I want to feed kibble :smile: and when these bouts of diarrhea (or something) come about my first inclination is to change kibble until it stops. AND, I have a small home and wouldn't have the room to freeze whatever it is they will eat and then package it for them. Kibble is just a "neater" package at the moment. It's simple and fast. I like neat, simple and fast. 

I applaud all of you who go raw. I'm sure it is the best way to go. Just not sure I want to mess w/it. CHANGE IS HARD and kibble is easy.

Oh, yeah, I almost forgot. I wouldn't know if they were getting the right percentages of what they need, i.e. vitamins, etc. to be healthy.

Just my opinion for me. :biggrin:


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## PeanutsMommy

for me I just started looking into it once i am comfortable and can find the sources to get the ingredients i would give my boy then sure i would go raw. the other thing is my husband said we cant afford it right now even though i feed evo and wilderness.


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## whiteleo

I think people are strictly looking for convenience, I knew that I would have to go raw with my BT's, it was a matter of getting all the stuff I needed first. I bought them their own freezer, 40lbs of chicken backs(they won't eat them so i have 20 ibs left) stocking up on other stuff,like heart, liver venison, pork roast etc, I just like to be prepared. But, when I suggest to my friends and family that they should go raw for different health reasons, they think I'm crazy no matter what I say to back it up. I love my dogs and would do anything for them, especially if it means prolonging their life.


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## rockymtsweetie82

I have no qualms with feeding raw. My dogs constantly get raw snacks from when I'm cooking or leftovers. At this point, the raw is too expensive (I still haven't found one of thos butcher shops that let you buy bulk directly from them). Once I do, I fully intend on switching and am apart of this site purely for that information once I finally have the resources to do so. Kibble at this point is just cheaper.


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## hanksta13

For me it's mostly sanitary reasons. I have been thinking about it but I have kids that my dog likes to kiss. I have been using The Honest Kitchen "Prefrence" which is a dehydrated mix that has all the vitamins and minerals they need. I just add my own cooked meat. It's working out really good and my dog loves it. Also I feel when dogs kill prey in the wild it's warm and fresh and doesn't go from a slaughter house to a supermarket and then sit on the shelf for a week exposed to all sorts of stuff. I feel there is a reason why we(humans) cook our foods. I know Wolves can be scavengers and eat some old discusting carcass but our dogs are domesticated so I don't think you can really compare the two. Thats just my opinion. I guess raw works out well for a lot of people doing it.


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## Doc

I like the Honest Kitchen product. Do those that feed "raw diets" consider this a good product or is it inferior to what die-hard raw suppoters advocate? I've done everything from Pedigree to Orijen to Honest Kitchen to breed specific home cooked diets. (and my Pedigree fed German shepherd dog lived to be over 13 years old and was healthy her entire life). I am willing to try a "raw diet" but some promoters have made it so complicated I would need a check list to make sure everything was in balance. I have a hard time puttng the "right" stuff on my plate. lol


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## RawFedDogs

Let me preface this post by saying I'm not knocking anyone. I'm just trying to answer some concerns.



Doc said:


> I like the Honest Kitchen product. Do those that feed "raw diets" consider this a good product or is it inferior to what die-hard raw suppoters advocate?


Very inferior. Some of the blends may be a little better than kibble. Some aren't as good a kibble. Mostly they are some small amount of meat with a LOT of veggies and fruits which are entirely inappropriate to feed to dogs. Hehe, one thing I noticed on thier website ... 4 of their products use hormone free chicken or turkey. What they fail to tell you is that ALL chicken and turkey are hormone free. You can go to any grocery store, randomly pick up a package of chicken or turkey parts or whole birds and it will be hormone free.

I am willing to try a "raw diet" but some promoters have made it so complicated I would need a check list to make sure everything was in balance.


> Check out my web page in the sig in this post and you will see just how not complicated it is.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I have a hard time puttng the "right" stuff on my plate.
> 
> 
> 
> Yet you are alive and I assume, somewhat healthy. Makes you wonder how important those numbers are, doesn't it? :smile:
> 
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> 
> 
> *hanksta13:* "For me it's mostly sanitary reasons. I have been thinking about it but I have kids that my dog likes to kiss. I have been using The Honest Kitchen "Prefrence" which is a dehydrated mix that has all the vitamins and minerals they need.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I've been raw feeding for nearly 7 years now. I take no special precautions about bacteria except to wash my hands when I finish handling the meat. I assume you handle raw meat several times a week. Your dog's meat wouldn't be any different. My dogs love to kiss me, my wife, children and grandchildren. No one who has ever been in my house in the last 7 years has ever gotten sick from the dog's food or the dogs. They eat most meals off the floor and i don't used any sanitiation precautions. Germs are just not a problem with raw fed dogs. It's an non-issue and usually bothers only people who have never fed a real raw diet.
> 
> The Honest Kitchen product you feed does not have one single solitary ingredient that your dog need. Dogs are carnivores and have no need for plant products. Mine have not eaten any plant material in almost 7 years. They eat ONLY meat, bones, and organs. Nothing else.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *PeanutsMommy*"for me I just started looking into it once i am comfortable and can find the sources to get the ingredients i would give my boy then sure i would go raw. the other thing is my husband said we cant afford it right now even though i feed evo and wilderness."
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> A good source to begin is a grocery store. I'm sure you have one pretty near you. :smile: My grocery store for the last 3 weeks has had chicken leg quarters on sale for $.59/lb. I have bought about 30 lbs each week. About 3 weeks ago they had Boston Butt Roast on sale for $1.59/lb. I bought 3 of those each week for a month. Just keep your eye out for sales, and you can get stuff pretty reasonable.
> 
> Try small independent grocery stores that sell meat. Talk to the owner or meat manager and explain to him that you would like to buy meat by the case. If he does't want to ask him where he buys his meat and go there. Also check ethnic markets and check for a raw feeding co-op in your area. I guarantee you that you can feed raw MUCH cheaper than the kibble you are now feeding. My meats average cost is around $.73/lb.
> 
> Y'all check out my web page in my sig if you haven't already and you will see what is involved and how simple it is.
Click to expand...


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## hanksta13

My dog is doing great on Honest kitchen "Preference". I like the Preference because it gives me the flexability to add my homemade ingredients, without having to worry about proper nutrients, since Preference has all the proper vitamins and minerals in it. my pup is 6 1/2 months and is doing awesome. Bright eyes, coat, energetic, looks great and growning perfectly. Sometimes when I get in a pinch or a rush, I feed her a high grade kibble, which I am always researching, but I think the homemade diet is the way to go and works best for me. Here is a link I found while I was doing a bit of research from UC DAVIS veterinary nutritionists that I found interesting. Enjoy.

UC Davis: Spotlight: Fueling Fido


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## rockymtsweetie82

RawFedDogs said:


> The Honest Kitchen product you feed does not have one single solitary ingredient that your dog need. Dogs are carnivores and have no need for plant products. Mine have not eaten any plant material in almost 7 years. They eat ONLY meat, bones, and organs. Nothing else.


My dogs LOVE fresh carrots, broccoli, green beans, apples, etc.


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## RawFedDogs

hanksta13 said:


> I like the Preference because it gives me the flexability to add my homemade ingredients, without having to worry about proper nutrients, since Preference has all the proper vitamins and minerals in it. my pup is 6 1/2 months and is doing awesome.


I hope the homemade ingredients you add are all meat. I can see you didn't read my web page like I asked you to. :smile:



> Bright eyes, coat, energetic, looks great and growning perfectly.


You could be describing my nearly 9 year old Great Dane who hasn't eaten a veggie or fruit in nearly 7 years. Her diet consists of nothing but meat, bones, and organs from a variety of animals.



> I think the homemade diet is the way to go and works best for me.


Hehe, we agree on that.



> Here is a link I found while I was doing a bit of research from UC DAVIS veterinary nutritionists that I found interesting. Enjoy.


I found it full of a lot of errors, misinformation, and half truths. You see, vet schools like this depend heavily on money from the dog food manufacturers and never miss a chance to promote them. Its a sad story but rare is the canine nutritionist who will recommend any food other than that of the dog food companies that support them. I know that you found statements on that page that you have problems with. The first two topics on their page say absolutely nothing more than dog food companies make dog food. 

The first half of the 3rd topic says nothing until it makes this statement _" ... it is really important that pet owners work with their veterinarians to make these decisions." _ The problem is that vets have to take only one nutrition course the whole time they are in vet school and it is a course about animal nutrition. Thats all animals, cows, horses, cats, pigs, goats, AND DOGS. Unfortunately, vets have no more nutritional training than the average person on the street. Your vet is the last person you want to consult with about feeding your dog. All he will do is look at some promotional material from one or more dog food companies.

_“One of the biggest risks is using a recipe that hasn’t been formulated and balanced by a trained veterinary nutritionist,” Fascetti said. “We certainly can see problems of nutritional deficiencies both in dogs and cats eating diets that do not contain all the nutrients that they need.”_ That translates into _"You are not smart enough to feed your dog. You must come to us and let us formulate a diet specifically for your dog."_ If you can feed yourself and your family without hiring a nutritionist, you can feed your dog.

_“There is no evidence to support that feeding a raw diet compared to a home-prepared, cooked diet, has any additional benefits,” she said, noting that uncooked foods also carry a higher risk of contamination with harmful bacteria such as Salmonella or E. coli. “So when we do recommend diets that are home-prepared we always recommend cooked products.”_ Of course there is no research on raw food for dogs because who would pay for it? Not the dog food companies. Dogs/wolves have been eating raw meat, bones, and organs for millions of years and thrived. They have eaten both fresh kill and carrion. These people stress the dangers of bacteria (I have never seen a dog food company debate raw without bring that up) but they fail to mention how cooking destroys a lot of nutrients and makes digestion much more difficult. My dogs have eaten road kill squirrels that have been dead for days if not weeks several times with no adverse consequences. Germs are not a problem with feeding a dog a raw diet. The only people who say there is a problem with bacteria are the ones who have never fed a raw diet in their lives.

Anyway, those are my thoughts. I hope they make sense to you. Go read my page. :smile:


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## rockymtsweetie82

What is so horrible about giving a dog something she/he likes? Fresh vegetables, fruits, etc. I'm not saying I'm going to turn my dog into a vegetarian but along with a healthy meat diet?? I see nothing wrong with it. My dogs love it, my mom's dogs love it, and none of them have ever had any health issues because of it so what does make it such a horrible thing to feed your dog some fruits and veggies?


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## RawFedDogs

rockymtsweetie82 said:


> My dogs LOVE fresh carrots, broccoli, green beans, apples, etc.


Thats great. Feed him some if you wish. Don't expect him to derive any nutrients from them cause he won't. They will come out the back end looking pretty much like they did going in which means he didn't digest them.


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## whiteleo

Theres nothing wrong with giving them some fruit and veggies for snacks or treats, they just aren't going to get anything nutritional from it. My BT's love to have a piece of apple when I have one, or some carrots.


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## rockymtsweetie82

That was my point. There's nothing wrong with it. Like I said, My dogs aren't going vegan but I do give it to them because they love it. As for nutritional value, I believe we all have our own opinions and nutritional facts to review.


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## hanksta13

RawFedDogs said:


> I hope the homemade ingredients you add are all meat. I can see you didn't read my web page like I asked you to. :smile:
> 
> 
> Yeah, I add whatever meat I cook for the week, eggs, fish oil and sometimes yogurt. I have read your web page.:smile:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You see, vet schools like this depend heavily on money from the dog food manufacturers and never miss a chance to promote them. Its a sad story but rare is the canine nutritionist who will recommend any food other than that of the dog food companies that support them
> 
> 
> 
> .
> 
> They are recommending a "Homemade cooked diet" in the article. They are not promoting any dog food CO. Did they mention any names I may have missed? They are Just saying to be aware to feed a balanced diet. Questioning the ethics of UC Davis is kinda harsh. :wink:
> I think they are just researching what's best for dogs and cats. When it comes to Conspiracy Theories, I'm am usually the first to agree and jump on that band wagon, but UC Davis, I don't think so.
Click to expand...


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## rannmiller

hanksta13 said:


> Here is a link I found while I was doing a bit of research from UC DAVIS veterinary nutritionists that I found interesting. Enjoy.
> 
> UC Davis: Spotlight: Fueling Fido


No offense but that article didn't really have any helpful information in it whatsoever. If people didn't already know about not storing dog food in non-airtight containers in blazing hot temperatures, then that's just sad. The rest of it was either pointless, and mostly incorrect. 

I think it is just fine to question vet schools since they actually are funded by major dog food companies, and so are their veterinary nutritionist programs. It is, unfortunately, _not_ just a conspiracy theory. Vets really only do get one class on nutrition for all animals that they don't really have to pay much attention to. And usually these classes are taught by representatives from a pet food company. And the pet food companies will pay off freshly graduated veterinarian's debt and give them money to establish a practice promoting their products. Don't believe me? I asked two vets about it myself. 

Still don't believe me? Check out the Science Diet website, they tell all about it. Hill's Pet Nutrition Students

Bottom line: vets get sub-par education on nutrition because they aren't really given the opportunity to learn otherwise.


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## RawFedDogs

hanksta13 said:


> Yeah, I add whatever meat I cook for the week, eggs, fish oil and sometimes yogurt. I have read your web page.:smile:


Yeah, I just checked my email and answered yours. 



> They are recommending a "Homemade cooked diet" in the article.


What they say is “So when we do recommend diets that are home-prepared we always recommend cooked products.” ... They also say that you shouldn't feed a Homemade diet without having a vet nutritionist check it first like you aren't smart enough to feed your own dog. Hehe what baloney. :smile:



> They are not promoting any dog food CO. Did they mention any names I may have missed?


Not a particular dog food company but dog foods in general. The overall message I get from the page is "don't feed your dog a homemade diet without consulting a nutritionist." Most people won't do that so the only other option is to feed commercial dog food.



> They are Just saying to be aware to feed a balanced diet.


But they also say we aren't capable of doing that. We must depend on them or feed commercial food.



> Questioning the ethics of UC Davis is kinda harsh. :wink:
> I think they are just researching what's best for dogs and cats.


Then why don't they research on which is the best diet, prey model raw, BARF, kibble, canned, cooked homemade? Because they know kibble and canned will come out on the bottom.

Why don't they research on how much more nutritious raw food is compared to cooked? Because they know raw is more nutritious and will make commercial dog food look bad.

Why don't they research and see what effect bacteria such as salmonella and e-coli actually have on dogs? Because they known it has no effect most of their argument against raw will go away.

Why don't they research on what effects a lack of carbs have on dogs? Because they know dogs have no need for carbs and that will make commercial food that is high in carbs more difficult to sell.

If they are really interested on what's best for dogs and cats, why don't they do some research that will actually benefit them? Because the dog food companies will look bad everytime.



> When it comes to Conspiracy Theories, I'm am usually the first to agree and jump on that band wagon, but UC Davis, I don't think so.


Dog food industry is no different than other industries. Many industries contribute heavily to colleges and universities. The beneficiaries of these contributions know if they want the contributions to continue, they can't rock the boat. I'm not picking on UC Davis. ALL colleges and universities play the same game.


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## hanksta13

I agree kibble is the most un-natural food to feed a dog, but I disagree that feeding raw is the best. I know dogs need meat, I don't think anyone here disagrees with that. I just think feeding dogs cooked meat is no worse than raw for me. Think of it this way, What if wolves or wild dogs ate 2 or 3 meals a day of modern premium dog food or cooked homemade food. They would probably do just as well if not better. A wolves life span is not any longer than a domestic dogs. 8-10 years, I looked it up. so on average a domestic dogs is a little longer, but I would assume that due to the enviornment. Anyways can we even compare the two? That would be like comparing me to a cave man, although sometimes my wife does! We will just have to agree to disagree.

I grew up with a Golden Retriever who ate Skippy, Gravy Train, Rubber bands,
(I had a paper route) wood, cans. He lived to be 16, healthy as a horse. would swim with us every summer. Go figure. Dogs are resilient animals and can adapt to most situations. I'm sure we all have stories like that. It's good now to see so many people care about what they feed. Ultimatly we all want whats best for our pets and I think it's what works best for us and them.

Anyways, I enjoy the site and the friendly debates.


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## rannmiller

hanksta13 said:


> I agree kibble is the most un-natural food to feed a dog, but I disagree that feeding raw is the best. I know dogs need meat, I don't think anyone here disagrees with that. I just think feeding dogs cooked meat is no worse than raw for me.


The difference is that cooked meat has all the enzymes and nutrition cooked out of it so their pancreas still has to secrete extra enzymes so they can digest it which weakens their immune system along with the rest of their body. I've gone over this before in other threads so I won't go into detail again here. 

Also, when you feed a strictly home _cooked_ meal, since you're cooking the bones, you can't feed them to dogs which destroys the calcium/phosphorus ratio so your dog isn't getting enough calcium, hence the reason why home cooked feeders usually have to supplement with either calcium or kibble in order to balance their meals and raw feeders do not. 



hanksta13 said:


> Think of it this way, What if wolves or wild dogs ate 2 or 3 meals a day of modern premium dog food or cooked homemade food. They would probably do just as well if not better. A wolves life span is not any longer than a domestic dogs. 8-10 years, I looked it up. so on average a domestic dogs is a little longer, but I would assume that due to the enviornment.


Wolves probably only live that long because they are exposed to all sorts of environmental and human elements that drastically shorten their lifespan including: diseases, starvation, lack of medical care when injured, and of course aerial shootings. 



hanksta13 said:


> We will just have to agree to disagree.


I suppose so, if you believe none of our points are valid. 



hanksta13 said:


> I grew up with a Golden Retriever who ate Skippy, Gravy Train, Rubber bands,
> (I had a paper route) wood, cans. He lived to be 16, healthy as a horse. would swim with us every summer. Go figure. Dogs are resilient animals and can adapt to most situations. I'm sure we all have stories like that. It's good now to see so many people care about what they feed. Ultimatly we all want whats best for our pets and I think it's what works best for us and them.


Some dogs are predisposed to live longer than others. I've also read somewhere that dogs have the ability to live into their 20s with proper diet and exercise. Someone please correct me if I'm wrong on that one. Of course that would vary depending on the breed, size, and health of the dog as well. 

I just hate it when people get this mentality that their perfectly healthy dog is practically knocking on death's door when they're 10 years old and they've practically written them off as dead already, when it's really only middle age for dogs. That's like telling someone who's 50 that they might as well start picking out a coffin because they'll be dead any day now (depends on the person, and their diet and health habits too though, I suppose). 



hanksta13 said:


> Anyways, I enjoy the site and the friendly debates.


As do I!


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## RawFedDogs

hanksta13 said:


> I just think feeding dogs cooked meat is no worse than raw for me.


Any nutritionist, both human and animal, will tell you cooked food does not have the nutrition of raw food and that cooked food is more difficult to digest.



> Think of it this way, What if wolves or wild dogs ate 2 or 3 meals a day of modern premium dog food or cooked homemade food. They would probably do just as well if not better.


As well if not better than what? Like they live now? Well now they don't have regular meals. They can and often do go days without eating. Even knowing that, I still think they would be better off with raw meat, bones, and organs.



> A wolves life span is not any longer than a domestic dogs. 8-10 years, I looked it up. so on average a domestic dogs is a little longer, but I would assume that due to the enviornment.


The biggest killer of adult wild wolves is bullets. I think about 50% of wild wolves die before thier first birthday. That would bring average lifespan down A LOT. I could be wrong about the 50% but it's a lot.



> Anyways can we even compare the two?


Not if all you are looking at is nutrition.



> I grew up with a Golden Retriever who ate Skippy, Gravy Train, Rubber bands, (I had a paper route) wood, cans. He lived to be 16, healthy as a horse.


My Grandfather died at 91 and smoked until the day he died. Think the cigarettes are what caused him to have a long life?



> Anyways, I enjoy the site and the friendly debates.


Me TOO!! :smile:


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## Postal

Wow, this thread is intense. I'm loving it. They don't have a popcorn smiley on here? heh


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## hanksta13

> Any nutritionist, both human and animal, will tell you cooked food does not have the nutrition of raw food and that cooked food is more difficult to digest


.

Then why is it humans don't eat raw chicken? We all know cooking food diminishes the nutrients, But I have been eating cooked food all my life and 
I'm fine. My dog eats cooked food and she is fine. We eat cooked food because it kills the bacteria, parasites and so on. It's SAFER. It also taste better.:biggrin:


> Originally Posted by hanksta13
> We will just have to agree to disagree.





> I suppose so, if you believe none of our points are valid.


I believe your points are based on your own opinion. The title of this thread is "WHY NOT". I'm stateing my opinion why I don't feed raw.


> Wolves probably only live that long because they are exposed to all sorts of environmental and human elements that drastically shorten their lifespan including: diseases, starvation, lack of medical care when injured, and of course aerial shootings.


I mentioned that when I said "wolves life span is probably a bit shorter due to enviornment". Anyways, I think that's a bad comparison(wolves and domestic dogs)My bad. Domestic dogs were engineered by humans to be pets, companions and so on. Wolves are the ancestors of the domestic dog. A Shit Tzu and a Wolf in my opinion wouldn't have the same Diet. My dog does great with cooked homemade food, the same food I would eat. I make sure that her food has the proper nutrients and she is great. I am not a Veterinary nutritionist, I don't know if you guys are, I just go by what works for me and what my Vet, and the Vet nutritionists at UC Davis say. I'm not telling you not to feed your dog Raw, obviously you have your beliefs. And yes, some Vets are unethical, sell Science Diet and don't know squat about dog nutrition, but UC Davis are full on nutritionists, professors and students that research dog nutrition everyday. If you believe it's a conspiracy theory and they don't care for the well being of our pets, just greed, well, then thats your belief. I have a greater opinion of them. Call me crazy.
It seems like you guys are trying to change my mind. I have looked into it, discussed it with my vet and raw is just not for me, or my dog. :frown:


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## rannmiller

hanksta13 said:


> .
> Then why is it humans don't eat raw chicken? We all know cooking food diminishes the nutrients, But I have been eating cooked food all my life and
> I'm fine. My dog eats cooked food and she is fine. We eat cooked food because it kills the bacteria, parasites and so on. It's SAFER. It also taste better.


I've actually heard of people who eat strictly raw foods including raw meat and they thrive as well. And dogs don't have a problem with bacteria in meat, so that's not really a valid excuse for why they cook their meat...oh no wait, they don't. Hmmmm



hanksta13 said:


> I believe your points are based on your own opinion. The title of this thread is "WHY NOT". I'm stateing my opinion why I don't feed raw.


I suppose if you count an opinion as something backed up by fact, then yes, I am stating my opinion:wink:



hanksta13 said:


> I mentioned that when I said "wolves life span is probably a bit shorter due to enviornment". Anyways, I think that's a bad comparison(wolves and domestic dogs)My bad. Domestic dogs were engineered by humans to be pets, companions and so on.


Wait, are we talking about dogs or robots now?



hanksta13 said:


> Wolves are the ancestors of the domestic dog. A Shit Tzu and a Wolf in my opinion wouldn't have the same Diet.


Why not? I mean, sure, you'd never see a pack of Shih Tzus take down an elk, but it doesn't mean they couldn't eat it just the same. I bet I eat a very similar diet to what my ancestors ate and I bet you do too: meat/protein, veggies, carbs. Why can't dogs? _In fact_, the main causes of health problems in humans these days is that they eat too much processed/modern food and not enough healthy and natural foods. It seems as though the same applies in dogs as well. Too much processed foods, not enough real foods.



hanksta13 said:


> My dog does great with cooked homemade food, the same food I would eat. I make sure that her food has the proper nutrients and she is great.


But why? Your dog is a carnivore, you are an omnivore (unless you think that's just an opinion too). If you agree with that then why would you think your dog should eat the same things you do? And if that's the case, why don't you just eat what you feed your dog every day? Mmmm a little Honest Kitchen for breakfast, lunch, and dinner every single day. 



hanksta13 said:


> I am not a Veterinary nutritionist, I don't know if you guys are, I just go by what works for me and what my Vet, and the Vet nutritionists at UC Davis say. I'm not telling you not to feed your dog Raw, obviously you have your beliefs. And yes, some Vets are unethical, sell Science Diet and don't know squat about dog nutrition, but UC Davis are full on nutritionists, professors and students that research dog nutrition everyday. If you believe it's a conspiracy theory and they don't care for the well being of our pets, just greed, well, then thats your belief. I have a greater opinion of them. Call me crazy.


I'm still pretty sure that Royal Canin sponsors most of the veterinary programs and vet nutritionist programs at UC Davis. Even if they don't push that brand every time in particular, their research will still all be based off of what RC has researched which his whatever they can to "prove" that dogs are onmivores and can survive on a diet filled with grains. Yes, they can survive, but it is appropriate? And should survival be your only goal? And does it count as survival if your dog dies 9 years before his/her normal life expectancy from cancer, kidney failure, etc. 

And again, it's not a "conspiracy theory" if it's true! 




hanksta13 said:


> It seems like you guys are trying to change my mind. I have looked into it, discussed it with my vet and raw is just not for me, or my dog. :frown:


It makes me sad too :frown:
I've met vets who make dogs worse going out than they were coming in. I've met vets who can't diagnose a dog overeating and assume it's either pancreatitis or salmonella. I've met vets who know so little about nutrition they think that Pedigree and Kibbles N Bits are great foods. I've met vets who poisoned my dog for 8 years and made her fall apart and have chronic yeast infections in her ears before they would finally admit to me that it was probably a food allergy caused by the SD prescription food they were telling us she had to have or she'd die. Guess what? It's been a year since she's been on SD and over 6 months since she's been on raw and she's the healthiest and happiest she's ever been since she was a puppy. 

The bottom line is: you can probably trust your vet to operate on your dog and save it's life in cases of severe illness or injury, but when it comes to most other things, take it with a grain of salt.


----------



## hanksta13

And the beat goes on!



> I've actually heard of people who eat strictly raw foods including raw meat and they thrive as well.


 Don't tell me your gonna try and convince me to switch to raw now?
Sorry, I thrive on cooked food. And Sushi:biggrin:


> And dogs don't have a problem with bacteria in meat, so that's not really a valid excuse for why they cook their meat...oh no wait, they don't. Hmmmm


It's not an excuse. I don't care because I cook my dogs meat.




> I suppose if you count an opinion as something backed up by fact, then yes, I am stating my opinion


 I have yet to see a fact that says feeding raw is better. I v'e only heard it from u guys. Are you guys Veterinary Nutritionists? And again, If it turns out it is better, I still will cook my dogs meat because thats what I choose to do.



> Wait, are we talking about dogs or robots now?


No, we are talking dogs. Shi Tzu's, Boxers, Poodles, Dachshund and so on. They were all breed over hundreds of years to get certain traits and to make them domestic. A wolves bite and a German Sheperds bite, although similar are very different. A wolf is made for hunting and killing and has much more powerful teeth and bite. While a domestic German Sheperd was breed over hundreds of years to herd, and then to be a pet or work dog. I would think a wolves digestive system can tolerate what it was meant to eat in the wild, which is whatever it can find. A domestic dog has evolved. Sure, I guess some dogs do well on a raw diet, But a domesticated dog will do just as well on a cooked diet.



> I mean, sure, you'd never see a pack of Shih Tzus take down an elk


,!
LOL, That would be very funny!:smile:



> It makes me sad too
> I've met vets who make dogs worse going out than they were coming in. I've met vets who can't diagnose a dog overeating and assume it's either pancreatitis or salmonella. I've met vets who know so little about nutrition they think that Pedigree and Kibbles N Bits are great foods. I've met vets who poisoned my dog for 8 years and made her fall apart and have chronic yeast infections in her ears before they would finally admit to me that it was probably a food allergy caused by the SD prescription


I'm sorry for that experience you had, but you can't judge all vets based on a couple bad one's. My Vet is an exellent Vet and I trust her with my dogs life.
They are just like any doctor or mechanic. You have to find the right one.
There are good people out there who care.

We can go on and on. This is quite the controversial subject.


----------



## MandyPug

What do vet's learn about nutrition


Pottenger Study

There's 2 articles i think you should look at before you say that vets are experts in nutrition and that there are no studies behind raw. I have more studies, but they're on my work computer and i don't have them bookmarked here, i'll see if i can find them later though.


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## rockymtsweetie82

I'm pretty sure that no one here has said vets are experts in nutrition or that there are no studies behind raw. This is a controversial thread on why or why not we feed our dogs raw. We have our differences of opinions. You think you're right, they think they're right. Does it really matter? I've seen dogs live healthy lives to age 15 and beyond so what does it matter what the heck these dogs are eating? With the right care, an animal could probably live to be friggin 30. Doesn't mean I'm switching to raw or staying with kibble or mixing and matching.


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## hanksta13

> There's 2 articles i think you should look at before you say that vets are experts in nutrition and that there are no studies behind raw. I have more studies, but they're on my work computer and i don't have them bookmarked here, i'll see if i can find them later though.


Thanks. You can email if u want. I don't know if this forum shows emails.

I never said "all vets were experts in nutrition", I said the the veterinary nutritionists at UC Davis were experts. I know my vet knows a lot about nutrition, she's not an "expert" but I value her opinion. And she see's a lot of dogs.


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## rannmiller

MandyPug said:


> What do vet's learn about nutrition
> 
> 
> Pottenger Study
> 
> There's 2 articles i think you should look at before you say that vets are experts in nutrition and that there are no studies behind raw. I have more studies, but they're on my work computer and i don't have them bookmarked here, i'll see if i can find them later though.


Please post them on the forum somewhere, I'd love to read them!


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## RawFedDogs

rannmiller said:


> Please post them on the forum somewhere, I'd love to read them!


Hehe, click them and you can read them. :smile:


----------



## rannmiller

hanksta13 said:


> And the beat goes on!


But of course!



hanksta13 said:


> Don't tell me your gonna try and convince me to switch to raw now?
> Sorry, I thrive on cooked food. And Sushi:biggrin:


No, this isn't a human nutrition forum and I'm a vegetarian, so I suppose if I really wanted to only eat raw, I could probably do just fine and not have to worry about salmonella or e.coli (except as it breaks out in spinach and peanuts and everything else in the world!). I'm just saying that cooking food isn't necessary for dogs because they don't have a problem with the bacteria and neither do a lot of people who bother to try it. Because you said "We eat cooked food because it kills the bacteria and parasites. It's SAFER." in reference to why you feed cooked meat to your dogs. And I said that's not a valid reason to cook it for your dogs because dogs don't have problems with those things. That's what I said, stop trying to dance around it :smile:



hanksta13 said:


> It's not an excuse. I don't care because I cook my dogs meat.


What?



hanksta13 said:


> I have yet to see a fact that says feeding raw is better. I v'e only heard it from u guys. Are you guys Veterinary Nutritionists?


No, we are people who have our dogs' best interests at heart, not brain-washed people getting paid by dog food companies. You caught me. Vets tell me Science Diet is the best thing I can feed my dog, yet I've seen multiple dogs, including my own, fall apart on it and do very poorly.

Some say seeing is believing. Since I've switched to raw, my dogs' poops have gotten smaller, more compact, and more biodegradable. Their teeth have almost no plaque left on them, their breath smells better, their coats are healthier, and they seem more happy and energetic. I _see_ raw working.

When my dogs were on kibble, I saw them constantly shedding, they had dry flakey skin, their teeth had a lot of plaque build-up starting, and they were always mysteriously getting sick. I've see much worse on other kibble-fed dogs. 

I even had one lady boast she was feeding raw by feeding the Honest Kitchen. Yet she complained about the incredible amounts of poop her dogs produce. When I told her about how I do prey model raw and my dogs barely poop at all and the quality and quantity of the poop are a reflection of how well the dog is digesting the food, she looked at me like I had three heads. 



hanksta13 said:


> And again, If it turns out it is better, I still will cook my dogs meat because thats what I choose to do.


Umm kay, that's your choice. 




hanksta13 said:


> No, we are talking dogs. Shi Tzu's, Boxers, Poodles, Dachshund and so on. They were all breed over hundreds of years to get certain traits and to make them domestic.


Hundreds of years is not very long in evolutionary terms. While their outward appearances may have changed, they are still carnivores descended from wolves with the same digestive tract.




hanksta13 said:


> A wolves bite and a German Sheperds bite, although similar are very different. A wolf is made for hunting and killing and has much more powerful teeth and bite. While a domestic German Sheperd was breed over hundreds of years to herd, and then to be a pet or work dog.


And yet all dogs still have the ability to hunt and kill things. I've also met wolves who have been raised as pets, are you going to tell me their digestive tracts changed as soon as they became domesticated as well?




hanksta13 said:


> I would think a wolves digestive system can tolerate what it was meant to eat in the wild, which is whatever it can find. A domestic dog has evolved. Sure, I guess some dogs do well on a raw diet, But a domesticated dog will do just as well on a cooked diet.


How do you know a dog's digestive system has evolved past that of a wolf's? That's just your opinion. Dogs will also eat whatever they can find too. It's not just some dogs doing well on raw, it's thousands, probably millions. What do you think strays and feral dogs eat? I'm guessing it isn't kibble and I'm also guessing that if they do come across raw meat either by hunting it (because yes, they can still do that), or finding it, I can guarantee you they don't cook it first. 

And as far as a domesticated dog doing just as well on a cooked diet, that is also debatable. Their teeth probably won't be as clean naturally, their stools will probably be larger which is a sign that their food is less digestible, and who knows what else is going on in their bodies that isn't going right until one day it collapses?




hanksta13 said:


> LOL, That would be very funny!


Yes. I imagine a pack of shih tzus bringing down an elk would be very funny to watch. Like being attacked by a swarm of wigs, I'm sure. 





hanksta13 said:


> I'm sorry for that experience you had, but you can't judge all vets based on a couple bad one's. My Vet is an exellent Vet and I trust her with my dogs life.


I remember at one point you were seriously considering going raw, did your vet have something to do with changing your mind? As I recall, you have the most wonderful situation set up to do so, fresh meat to feed to your dogs at your fingertips daily. Might I also add, I'll take any of the "icky" parts you don't want to eat or feed to your dog :biggrin:




hanksta13 said:


> They are just like any doctor or mechanic. You have to find the right one.
> There are good people out there who care.


There is no doubt in my mind that these people all cared, they just don't know any better because their education made sure they didn't know any better. And ignorance can be just as dangerous as not caring. Like I said, I'll trust them if my dog sustains an injury or gets some sort of illness, but when it comes to nutrition, unless they're telling me something other than what I've read on all the dog food labels, I'm not going to trust them on it. 



hanksta13 said:


> We can go on and on. This is quite the controversial subject.


But fun! I hope you're having fun too. I was once a kibble/cooked food feeder through and through for all the same reasons. I'm not saying that means you have to come around to raw eventually, I'm just saying that I'm very adept at both sides of the argument and I can understand certain concerns (lack of freezer space and place to put a freezer I can't really refute, everything else is pretty easy). I'm hoping that I might be able to help people see that there are two sides to this argument and maybe help them decide if raw is right for them or not. I'm not trying to force anyone into anything. But if you say something I don't agree with, I will debate it happily :smile:


----------



## RawFedDogs

hanksta13 said:


> My dog eats cooked food and she is fine. We eat cooked food because it kills the bacteria, parasites and so on. It's SAFER. It also taste better.


Bacteria isn't a problem to your dog. Parasites aren't a problem in human grade food. In 6 1/2 years of feeding 4 dogs and 2 cats, none of them ever had a problem with either.



> I believe your points are based on your own opinion. The title of this thread is "WHY NOT". I'm stateing my opinion why I don't feed raw.


My opinion was developed from 9 years of study and research and attending seminars and college level classes.



> Wolves are the ancestors of the domestic dog. A Shit Tzu and a Wolf in my opinion wouldn't have the same Diet.


A shi tsu (my spelling is no worse than yours LOL) IS a wolf. It has exactly the same digestive system and nutritional needs as all the other wolves. The only difference is size and physical appearance.



> My dog does great with cooked homemade food, the same food I would eat.


You would be surprised at how much better he will do on raw meat, bones and organs. You are an omnivore and he is a carnivore. Your physiology and nutritional needs are different.



> I just go by what works for me and what my Vet, and the Vet nutritionists at UC Davis say.


Ask your vet how much nutritional education she has. As for the vets nutritionists at UC Davis, best I remember, they didn't recommend a homemade diet. As I remember it they implyed that commercial food was best but if you feel you must feed a homemade diet, you should consult them first like you don't have enough sense to feed your dog.

After years of study, I have never found a nutrient that a dog needs that is not in the meat, bones and organs of the prey animals. If there were, wolves/dogs would have gone extinct hundreds of thousands of years ago, or they would have developed some kind of mechanism to digest plant matter. Neither of those things have happened.



> I'm not telling you not to feed your dog Raw, obviously you have your beliefs.


Hehe, do you use your doctor because his beliefs in medicine are good. :smile:



> And yes, some Vets are unethical, sell Science Diet and don't know squat about dog nutrition, but UC Davis are full on nutritionists, professors and students that research dog nutrition everyday.


Two points here. 1. These nutritionists were taught the ciriculum designed by the dog food companies so they know exactly what the dog food industry wants them to know. 2. If they are doing a lot of research on dog nutrition they sure are keeping it quiet. Maybe you could point us to some of this research.



> If you believe it's a conspiracy theory and they don't care for the well being of our pets, just greed, well, then thats your belief. I have a greater opinion of them. Call me crazy.


You should get the book Raw Meaty Bones Promote Health by Dr. Tom Lonsdale. It's all explained in great detail and evidence is presented. It is a well referenced book.



> It seems like you guys are trying to change my mind. I have looked into it, discussed it with my vet and raw is just not for me, or my dog. :frown:


Actually we just love chatting AND I think by now you realize just how much your vet knows. Your vet has never fed raw. :smile:


----------



## Postal

Alright, I know you guys are just having a blast going back and forth, but I wanted to step in and slow it down for a minute 

My shepherd/lab mix is about 8 months old now and I have been reading this board pretty diligently for the last couple days. I came across this thread and was pretty curious as to just what Brian (the furkid) thought about raw meat himself. I bought a bag of chicken leg quarters and some chicken livers sitting in it's blood. I anxiously brought it home and loaded him up. I put a quarter of chicken and a little bit of liver on top of about a half cup of kibble and let him have it. He was very hesitant to eat it. He sniffed around, licked a couple times on it, and walked away. He just didn't seem interested in it.

Well, I sat down with him next to the bowl and tore off some more "ergonomic" pieces to make it easier to eat and he still wasn't interested. I put him outside with the food by himself hoping that it was just the distractions of the household that was making him iffy about the food, but all he did was play with it like he does his tug toy. He dragged it around the yard and threw it around. He didn't even try and eat it. Instead, after pulling all the meat out, he ate the little bit of kibble in the bottom of the bowl and laid down for a nap like he usually does after dinner.

I feed him Natural Balance topped with Solid Gold Seameal, sometimes I mix it with a can of NB L.I.D. wetfood and he devours it. Anyways, do I need to cheat somehow to get him interested in the food? Even the piece I tore off he just picked up, walked off and set it down in the other room. 

Anyways, sorry to interrupt, but I was hoping you guys had a solution to offer  The debate is teaching me a lot from both sides. Keep it up :wink:


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## RawFedDogs

It's not unusual for dogs to act like yours. I don't know why. Either they don't understand it's food or this is food just like stuff they have been fussed at in the past for even sniffing. Put a quarter down for him to eat at each meal. If he doesn't eat it in 10 minutes, take it up, put it in the fridge and feed it again next meal. It won' t take him long to figure out what it is.

One trick you might try is to quickly sear the quarter to bring out some flavor. By searing, I mean put it in a hot pan for about 3 seconds. Another trick is to "ribbon" some of the meat so he can get hold of it pretty easily.

Keep trying. He will eat it soon.


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## rannmiller

Once he realizes it's food, he'll probably go to town on the meat, but it's very common for dogs not to realize it's food. My dogs actually tried to avoid me at first when I offered it to them since they'd always been yelled at before for even looking at "people food" they probably thought it was a test of wills or something. 

Anyway, searing it is a good idea, it will remind him of cooked meat he's maybe tried before, then he'll realize it's food and love it. You can also try cutting off a bite-sized chunk of meat first and offering it to him like a treat. That way he can also associate raw chicken with food. 

Oh and PS you're awesome for being willing to try it out so quickly! Keep it up, I'm sure he'll figure it out soon!


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## ChattyCathy

hanksta13 said:


> I'm sorry for that experience you had, but you can't judge all vets based on a couple bad one's. My Vet is an exellent Vet and I trust her with my dogs life.
> They are just like any doctor or mechanic. You have to find the right one.
> There are good people out there who care.
> 
> We can go on and on. This is quite the controversial subject.


OK.... here's my 3 cents worth. I have to say I'm not as knowledgeable as alot of you all but I can attest to that "most" vets know absolutely nothing about nutrition. Recently, I got into a conversation w/a new vet I went to and I knew more than him and I'm just learning. I also gave him this website... hopefully, he's using it. (Also, my other vets didn't know anything either... which is very sad as so many people think their word is gospel!:frown


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## rockymtsweetie82

Ok my own question: Am I going to switch my pups to raw immediately or do I change her over to raw just like I would if I were changing kibble to kibble? I'm pretty sure my Mom asked this question when she was asking about raw but that was long ago and I don't feel like thumbing through the threads to try and find it LOL Thanks! (As for Vets, mine's pretty idiotic on nutrition too. He wanted me to switch to Dads or Purina...No thanks)


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## RawFedDogs

You should feed your dog kibble one evening and raw the next morning never to feed kibble again. Some people will fast their dog for a day between the kibble and raw.


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## rockymtsweetie82

Holy cow, dream come true, that easy!?? That's amazing! Now, as for the list of what and when I should feed for certain raw meats, is that how I have to start? Chicken backs first, quarters next, etc?


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## RawFedDogs

rockymtsweetie82 said:


> Holy cow, dream come true, that easy!?? That's amazing! Now, as for the list of what and when I should feed for certain raw meats, is that how I have to start? Chicken backs first, quarters next, etc?


I suggest beginning with the items I list first for good reason. Chicken is easy to diges and the bones are relatively soft and plyable. Chicken backs are very heavy in bone. Bone is a constipator so this decreases the chances of diarrhea when switching. It will quickly give you very small firm little stools right off the bat. Turkey is similar to chicken so you go three weeks feeding easily digestable food with relatively soft bones so the dogs adjust to eating real food pretty easily and by the time they get to more difficult to digest food with more dense bones, they are ready for it.


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## rockymtsweetie82

Thats amazing! Now all I need is a mini freezer and I can start! Maybe i'll buy weekly for the time being just to get her started all that much quicker. As for Duckie, can he eat all that righ tnow? He's only 3 months old. Is there a different sort of raw diet he should be on?


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## RawFedDogs

rockymtsweetie82 said:


> Thats amazing! Now all I need is a mini freezer and I can start! Maybe i'll buy weekly for the time being just to get her started all that much quicker. As for Duckie, can he eat all that righ tnow? He's only 3 months old. Is there a different sort of raw diet he should be on?


You'll probably need more than a mini freezer. Also backs will be difficult to find. You might start your search for them now. You will almost certainly have to by back by the 40lb case unless you can find an ethnic market nearby. You may not be able to find backs at all. In that case, start with quarters and feed them for 2 weeks before adding in the turkey. You will probably have to get a store to special order the backs for you. Explain to them you want a whole case and they will be more willing to add them to their normal order for you.

Yes Duckie can eat raw food right now. I don't remember what breed he is but if he's pretty small, it might be best to start him on chicken wings instead of backs. I started my Thor the day I brought him home when he was 12 weeks old but he was 26lbs and started off with backs with no problem. He was eating quarters when he was 13 weeks old. You will just have to size the animal parts to match the dog. With some good kitchen shears you may be able to cut backs in half.


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## whiteleo

No, unless he has health issues you haven't stated., breeders start their babies on raw diets all the time.


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## rannmiller

rockymtsweetie82 said:


> Holy cow, dream come true, that easy!?? That's amazing! Now, as for the list of what and when I should feed for certain raw meats, is that how I have to start? Chicken backs first, quarters next, etc?


Haha, I know, it's so simple! I was pretty stoked when I found that out too! No weaning and measuring and whatnot, just start feeding raw and they're good to go. Be forewarned that some dogs may go through a detox period that can include looser stools, vomiting, eye boogers, and shedding. However, this is simply a detox process where their body is trying to get rid of all the kibble build-up in their system. This usually lasts no more than a week or two and some dogs don't go through it at all. I have three dogs of varying breed mixes, sizes, ages, and health conditions and none of them went through it. 

Since your dogs are already used to some raw snacks and have switched foods before, I'm guessing they'll probably be just fine with the switch.


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## rannmiller

rockymtsweetie82 said:


> Thats amazing! Now all I need is a mini freezer and I can start! Maybe i'll buy weekly for the time being just to get her started all that much quicker.


Buying weekly isn't so bad. That's pretty much what I have to do as my roommates hate how much space I take up in the freezer with my dog food so I pretty much get one designated shelf for all my raw (though I'll admit, I sometimes have to take up a little more space than that for my organ meat or extra "donations" from other people). But with adding in fish and other protein sources, I generally just buy 2 bags of leg quarters every 10 days or so. Since that's about how often I end up needing to go to the grocery store anyway, it isn't really an inconvenience for me at all. 

My dogs started with quarters because backs are so hard to find. I got a whole chicken once and cut it up and voila, I had a back! The nice thing about whole chickens is that they're generally only 88 cents/lb in so for you, you can feed the bigger parts to China and the smaller parts to Duckie to start. But still, cutting them up is a pain in the butt.


----------



## Postal

You guys are awesome. This is probably a bad comparison because I don't know how popular he is, but you two (rannmiller and RFD) are like the Eric Latendre of dog food. He's just a normal guy that is passionate about his pets and has spent countless hours researching positive reinforcement and has now created a website community to teach his findings.

Anyways, I'm going to try the searing trick tonight. I just came back from the vet because brian's heavy breathing had me concerned and scared for heartworms. The vet said he doesn't know what I'm feeding him right now, but whatever it was he wasn't getting enough sugar intake for this developing time in his life and that's why he was always taking so long to catch his breath after his playtime. Strong heart, clean blood, just low in the blood sugar. 

So, with that said, I'm very willing to jump into this RAW diet. Couldn't hurt, right? :wink:



Just wanted to say kudos to hanksta, too. You put up a lot of good points. I love to see that I'm not the only one out there that cares enough about their pet to exert so much energy into loving them :biggrin:


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## rockymtsweetie82

RawFedDogs said:


> Yes Duckie can eat raw food right now. I don't remember what breed he is but if he's pretty small, it might be best to start him on chicken wings instead of backs. I started my Thor the day I brought him home when he was 12 weeks old but he was 26lbs and started off with backs with no problem. He was eating quarters when he was 13 weeks old. You will just have to size the animal parts to match the dog. With some good kitchen shears you may be able to cut backs in half.


 Duckie's a Jack Russell/Beagle mix and so he's small. I'm hoping to find an ethnic market around here or something similar. I can't wait to switch! I bet my puppies will love me for it. I don't know if it's because of winter or what, but just this last week every animal in this house has dandruff. I haven't changed their diet either. Hopefully that'll end quite quickly too once I make the change to raw.


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## hanksta13

First off, I know most commercial dog foods are crap. Thats why I buy my dogs meat. I just choose to cook it. Second.


> You should get the book Raw Meaty Bones Promote Health by Dr. Tom Lonsdale. It's all explained in great detail and evidence is presented. It is a well referenced book


.

Dr.Tom Lonsdale from Austraila? Oh, but he's a Veterinarian. He must have his head up his A#@."Vets don't know crap about nutrition". Foster Farms and Tyson chicken must be funding his book.:wink:

You see, it's all a matter of OPINION. I can say the same thing you guys say about UC Davis and veterinarians. Thats why we have to put an end to the debate. I know it's fun but i'm spending way to much time here and it can go on and on!:smile: Again, if feeding raw is better for you and your dog, great.I like to cook my dogs food. Cheers.
P.S. my Vet is a surgeon also, just like Dr. Larsdale.
P.S.S I have no problem giving my dog a raw meaty bone to chew on every once in a while.


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## RawFedDogs

hanksta13 said:


> Dr.Tom Lonsdale from Austraila? Oh, but he's a Veterinarian. He must have his head up his A#@."Vets don't know crap about nutrition". Foster Farms and Tyson chicken must be funding his book


Hehe, yes he is one of the few vets that actually have a clue about canine nutrition. I have met and know 3 other vets that know something about how to properly feed dogs. 



> You see, it's all a matter of OPINION. I can say the same thing you guys say about UC Davis and veterinarians.


There is a difference in opinions that are conceived with knowledge and opinions that accept something on faith just because the information is given by someone with a good reputation.



> Again, if feeding raw is better for you and your dog, great.I like to cook my dogs food. Cheers.


There is not a dog that is better off eating cooked food than he would be eating raw food.



> P.S. my Vet is a surgeon also, just like Dr. Larsdale.


Evidently he/she didn't go on to learn more about nutrition.



> P.S.S I have no problem giving my dog a raw meaty bone to chew on every once in a while.


Cool, the more often you do it, the better off your dog is. :smile:


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## Guest

The owner of a premium pet supply store recommended I check out "Steve's Real Food". She said she feeds her 3 Rotties kibble topped with a few frozen nuggets of Steve's Real Food. Supposedly a good place for raw-feeding rookies to start. Or not.


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## RawFedDogs

LabbieMama said:


> The owner of a premium pet supply store recommended I check out "Steve's Real Food".


Bet she sells the stuff?


----------



## Postal

Well, I couldn't get the chicken quarter to thaw out soon enough, so I resorted to a quicker boneless chicken breast, a pork chop and a single egg.... and SUCCESS! I seared the chop and the breast for just about 10 seconds on both sides in my cast iron skillet, cut it up just into about 5 pieces and he went to town. After the breast, he was looking for more. I gave him the chop covered in egg. He inhaled the pork chop w/o me cutting it and came back to lick up the egg. He's now lying beside me knawing on a rawhide. Thanks for the help, guys! Tomorrow is time for the quarter with bone in! :biggrin: :biggrin:


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## rannmiller

Awesome! Try not searing it first and see if he goes for it plain now that he knows what meat is :smile: 

If not, just sear it super quick like you did and then he'll probably do it. Good luck!


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## LoyalBiscuit

Retailer's perspective...

My customers' reasons for NOT doing it:
1. Too time-consuming
2. Too expensive
3. Fear of missing something "important"

As for Steve's Real Food...

No. Not a good one, too veggie. If you want to go "convenient", then go Primal. Primal has great grinds as well as necks, backs, etc. There is also a ground whole sardine that makes my babies cry and dance! 

My personal experience...

Four years ago, after college, I adopted my little pittie/grey mix and proudly bought her Hill's Large breed and some corn starch bones and greenies. ( I could seriously punch myself thinking about it now!)

I moved to Maine when she was about 7 months old and my first job was at a Veterinary Clinic, where Hill's ruled. I saw more disgusting skin, ear, and tummy issues from the clients who fed this crap. My husband was feeding his dog Solid Gold and I didn't really "get" it. So, I put two and two together and switched my girl to that. But it didn't help her "issues" (chronic ear tip necrosis and bleeding). I switched jobs to work at a dog supply store (I now own one of the locations) and they had a freezer with Bravo. So, I started her on that and she started to "clear UP" and her poops starting getting really hard! That was only the beginnging...

It then evolved to local meats combined with Primal. My dogs eat about 90% muscle, organ and bone ground up with twice/thrice weekly necks, etc. I also lightly steam and puree greens and roots. The roots act as a "carrier" for the greens which have some antioxidant properties. 

I have a 11.5 year old lab who is living rather successfully with hemangiosarcoma (for 5 months so far and that we even know about). Look that up and you'll start to get interested in raw food. My dog should be dead. 

I would like to add that I am a vegetarian. I firmly believe that humans consume far too much meat. Cholesterol does not exist in a plant based diet. We are, as a species, dropping like flies from heart disease, etc. I am also, emotionally sensitive to the plights of factory farmed animals. 

However, my dogs are absolutely carnivores and not to be species-ist, but they are more important to me. I owe it to them to get past my emotions and feed them appropriately. 

Back to the retailer's stand point...I sell Orijen, Natura Foods for dry, etc. and Honest Kitchen and Sojo's for dehydrated and Stella & Chewy's and Primal for raw with some local fish and lamb. I'm not madly in love with any of it besides Primal Grinds (veg free) and Primal Bones, but I can attest to the fact that having these other products has paved the way for many clients to make the "switch". Products like HK are like gateway drugs (har har) and once people see the benefits they aren't as scared to upgrade to raw. 

So, there's a positive spin for some of the products that are out there. Hell, it's certainly better than Iams and it is a step in the right direction. 

So, let these guys test the waters with Honest Kitchen, Evo and Orijen. They'll soon be on their way to raw....


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## Guest

RawFedDogs said:


> Bet she sells the stuff?


Yuppers. :smile: And feeds it to her own dogs. I'm glad I found that store 'cause it carries a lot of hard to find stuff. It's actually out of the way for me but if I have to make the trip just once a month, it's OK. Owner was very nice and I enjoyed talking with her.

Hey, remember in all those movies we saw, when burgulars entered a home where there was a mean guard dog? What did the burgulars do to pacify the mean dog? Toss the dog a raw steak. All the time it was raw meat, never seen a burgular carry an opened bag of kibble to toss at the mean guard dogs.


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## RawFedDogs

LabbieMama said:


> Hey, remember in all those movies we saw, when burgulars entered a home where there was a mean guard dog? What did the burgulars do to pacify the mean dog? Toss the dog a raw steak. All the time it was raw meat, never seen a burgular carry an opened bag of kibble to toss at the mean guard dogs.


HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA ... good point!!!! :smile: :smile: :smile:


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## ChattyCathy

LabbieMama said:


> Hey, remember in all those movies we saw, when burgulars entered a home where there was a mean guard dog? What did the burgulars do to pacify the mean dog? Toss the dog a raw steak. All the time it was raw meat, never seen a burgular carry an opened bag of kibble to toss at the mean guard dogs.


Pretty funny!!!! :biggrin:


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## Postal

Brian did it! He's still working on it 2 hours later, but he's got it! lol


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## rannmiller

Yay! I bet he loves it too!


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## Postal

Just these last couple days his energy level has sky rocketed. Just 5 minutes ago he was rubbing his head on my leg wagging his tail. He's never done that. And today at work my brother asked what I fed him that morning because when he came downstairs he was so full of excitement. I told him I started him on the RAW diet the night before.. I can't wait to see if this slows his shedding :biggrin::biggrin:


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## rannmiller

It should definitely slow his shedding! Especially if you give fish or fish oil pills once a week!

That's awesome, I've noticed my dogs all have more energy since starting raw too!


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## claybuster

To answer the question posed, "why not", my honest answer would be I just don't want to put the time or money into it right now despite knowing the outstanding benefits. I'm not one to go into something without doing a bit of homework, and from what I understand to do it right you should have an extra freezer, one for the basement. We don't have one, just a small freezer on the bottom of the fridge. My wife does the weekly food shopping, and it averages about 140 a week. Another mouth to feed on that and it goes higher, so the best way IMO would be to stock up, buy bulk if you can and a freezer seems like a must. Kilowatts here in CT aren't cheap. That bill averages about 150 a month and much higher in the summer. With usually 4 AC window units going, the pool filer running 4 hrs at night, washer/ dryer, stove, fridge, water pump, grinder pump, all electric, last thing I need is to tack on a sm. freezer in the basement. Only thing not electric is heat and hot water (oil). An extra fridge is an expense, one I don't need right now, even if its only 10-15 a month, that bill is big enough as is.

There are convenient options IMO, may not be as good, but it gets the job done and keeps your dog out of the vets office. And if you going to use a dry feed, why not one from the developer of commercial available Raw feeds, Abady.
They were selling Raw diets long before Billinghurst and the BARF diets came about. Billinghurst concepts are the follower, Robert Abady started selling Raw in the '70s, he was the leader. Why not a dry feed with the right science in principle to back it up. They know what they are doing when it comes to feeding dogs, proven track record. You see, I could never do anything else when it comes to feeding except supplement with Raw. People supplement with raw to cut back on the amount of Granular they use. You can't doing anything else, because when you revert back to high carb high fiber diets, you’re not targeting carnivores anymore, because despite marketing of some of these high-end kibbles, they are selling you omnivore directed nutrition.

Raw feeders can benefit from Granular feeds as well! You can supplement
Safely in cutting back if you’re going through a lot of Raw and not be concerned about anything potentially harmful from kibble diets. It is not true that small amounts of grain are harmful and can lend an assist in some areas, like bitches regulating blood sugar during pregnancy.
They know what they are doing and make a species appropriate feed. A small amount of Granular mixed in with Raw...you can't beat it because it can help with costs and conforms with the principles of natures diets. Dogs don't chew Granular feeds like they need to with kibble, there is no crunching involved. They avoid gluten proteins and protein is calculating on a solids basis. You won’t be disappointed.


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## rannmiller

My raw doesn't cost me that much or take up very much freezer space. We had to get a second fridge for our house but only because it was 5 roommates sharing one fridge, it got a little cramped. Yes our electric bill went up but that was better than everyone having to go to the grocery store daily because there was only enough room in the fridge for everyone to feed themselves for a day :smile:

I have no bitches who are pregnant, nor do I ever plan on having any, so my no-carb approach to feeding is fantastically perfect for my pups. And like I said, it doesn't cost me that much to feed raw, not anymore than a high quality kibble would anyway. I know you hate Orijen but as an example: my roommate feeds her one dog on Orijen and a big bag is around $60+ and lasts her maybe a month and a half for one dog. I feed all three of my dogs on raw for about $60/month. This is way more cost effective I believe.


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## claybuster

rannmiller said:


> I know you hate Orijen but as an example: ...


I do not hate Orijien, I would just disagree as advertised "biologically appropriate". I feel the same about EVO and "when you can't feed raw". Doesn't mean I hate these products, just means I wouldn't consider them as an option.


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## ChattyCathy

Postal said:


> Brian did it! He's still working on it 2 hours later, but he's got it! lol


WOW! What a great picture for raw feeding!!!! :biggrin:


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## rannmiller

Doesn't it just look so right? Like a wolf in the wild or something. That's why I still love to watch my dogs eat, even 6 months after starting raw, it's still fun to watch it.


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## rockymtsweetie82

How would I go about even keeping my kids away from something like that? All I can picture is the dog laying there, my nosey 2 year old trying to pick up that nasty raw meat from China's mouth and BAM, bitten kid. Obviously it's common sense to watch your kids and your dogs but it's not always possible to know what every kid and dog is doing in the house at all times, probably why shoes still get chewed up or my kid spits his juice on my carpet.


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## rannmiller

Just feed your dogs outside and let them back in when they're done. That's what I do, it makes life simpler.


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## rockymtsweetie82

I would if it weren't so coooooold out there. That will work for spring - fall but not in the winter. Thanks! I'll keep that in mind for those warmer months.


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## rannmiller

How about putting the dogs in a separate room and shutting the door? Laundry rooms, bathrooms, and garages are perfect for this.


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## rockymtsweetie82

LOL I would but my garage is detached the bathroom is UBER small because the other one is under construction. What if I just break all the meat up so they odn't have to chew on anything but the bone after?


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## rannmiller

That works! More of pain for you but there's something to be said for the price of peace of mind. You could also just make sure your children stay in their rooms while the dogs eat. Or stay on the couch and watch or something. Do they ever try to stick their hands in China's mouth while she's eating her kibble?

What about your laundry room?

Just brainstorming :smile:


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## rockymtsweetie82

My laundry room doesn't exist at the moment it's just a washer and dryer in the kitchen...LOL No they don't stick their hands in but seeing fresh meat like that, my son might try cuz he's just so nosey like that. They know with bones to "leave it" though. HAH like dogs!


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## rannmiller

Hahaha, nice, try that on them then. Explain to them first, then do that if need be.


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## Postal

rockymtsweetie82, another little trick I learned during my training research (as diligent as my nutrition research heh!) is this...

It's always entirely up to the owner, but it's never a bad idea to have your dog "used" to eating in a busy area. You have to teach your dog that it's ok people or other dogs around with their food. The way you do this is to watch him eat sometimes. If you feed from a bowl it's easiest... As soon as you put the bowl down keep stirring around his food as he approaches it, then pet him with your other hand telling him "good boy" while you keep stirring. Every now and then pick up a couple kibble and act like you eat it, then sneak it back in... Do this a couple times and then progress.. While he's eating just come over and stick your hand in the bowl where it's in the way. Tell him good boy and pet him again. Do this a couple times throughout the week and progress again.. During the next week, when he's about half way finished, pick his food bowl up and put it on the counter. He'll look at you like "what the heck!" Get a little bit of shredded cheese out of the fridge and sprinkle it on top and give it back to him, telling him good boy. This teaches him that if someone grabs his food from him, he'll usually get it back and it'll taste better than before, meaning it's a GOOD thing when someone picks up your food. This will train him to not be so defensive of his food 

Good luck!


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## Postal

I should also state that if your dog is growling when you try the first step, just take it slow. Never put yourself in a dangerous situation.. but with you being the pack leader and the one who feeds him, he's usually not fussy when you tell him how it's going to be


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## RawFedDogs

Postal said:


> As soon as you put the bowl down keep stirring around his food as he approaches it, then pet him with your other hand telling him "good boy" while you keep stirring. Every now and then pick up a couple kibble and act like you eat it, then sneak it back in... Do this a couple times and then progress.. While he's eating just come over and stick your hand in the bowl where it's in the way. Tell him good boy and pet him again. Do this a couple times throughout the week and progress again.. During the next week, when he's about half way finished, pick his food bowl up and put it on the counter. He'll look at you like "what the heck!" Get a little bit of shredded cheese out of the fridge and sprinkle it on top and give it back to him, telling him good boy. This teaches him that if someone grabs his food from him, he'll usually get it back and it'll taste better than before, meaning it's a GOOD thing when someone picks up your food. This will train him to not be so defensive of his food


As a dog trainer of 15 years, I had many clients who got bit trying stuff like that. I have also seen many normal dogs get turned into vicious resource guarders with techniques like this. Often when trying to prevent something (in this case resource guarding) we create it or make it stronger instead. I can't tell you how many dog clients I've had that weren't resource guarders turned into one by owners going overboard trying to solve a prolbem that didn't exist.


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## rockymtsweetie82

She's not a resource guarder by any means. But, we feed her kibble. The kids are always around and she eats right in the dining room with everyone else. It's the raw yummy smelling meat I'm afraid she might get aggressive about. But there's no sense in stressing it if I'm just going to make sure the kids listen to me instead of the dog listening. It's her food, she can have it. As long as the kids listen to Mumma, then I won't have anything to worry about.


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## RawFedDogs

rockymtsweetie82 said:


> How would I go about even keeping my kids away from something like that? All I can picture is the dog laying there, my nosey 2 year old trying to pick up that nasty raw meat from China's mouth and BAM, bitten kid.


Sorry, I haven't read the whole thread. Has your dog given any indication that he will do anything like that?



> Obviously it's common sense to watch your kids and your dogs but it's not always possible to know what every kid and dog is doing in the house at all times,


It IS always possible to know what is going on around the dogs while they are eating. It's only a few minutes twice a day.


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## Postal

RawFedDogs said:


> As a dog trainer of 15 years, I had many clients who got bit trying stuff like that. I have also seen many normal dogs get turned into vicious resource guarders with techniques like this. Often when trying to prevent something (in this case resource guarding) we create it or make it stronger instead. I can't tell you how many dog clients I've had that weren't resource guarders turned into one by owners going overboard trying to solve a prolbem that didn't exist.


Well I'm glad you said something. I mean, I have learned to do it that way and I had no problem with it. I really don't want to suggest anything where someone will get hurt, but I've never really been around defensive or aggressive dogs, either. I was always taught that as long you pair any action with a consequence a dog appreciates or really likes, it always leads to positive effects.

But, I guess that's the beauty of the internet. So many minds heh :smile:


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## rockymtsweetie82

RawFedDogs said:


> Sorry, I haven't read the whole thread. Has your dog given any indication that he will do anything like that?


No she never has with anyone except Duckie, which is why I feed them separately. 



> It IS always possible to know what is going on around the dogs while they are eating. It's only a few minutes twice a day.


That leads me to another question. If she gets 1lb a day for her ideal weight (50lbs), do I feed her 1/2 lb, twice a day? And with Duckie his ideal weight is about 15-20lbs, so would I feed him 1/4lb twice a day?


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## RawFedDogs

rockymtsweetie82 said:


> That leads me to another question. If she gets 1lb a day for her ideal weight (50lbs), do I feed her 1/2 lb, twice a day? And with Duckie his ideal weight is about 15-20lbs, so would I feed him 1/4lb twice a day?


Assuming they are adults you can feed as often as you wish. Some feed once a day, some twice. I know some who feed everyother day and a few who feed 2 or 3 times a week.

I think you are just beginning feeding raw so I would feed twice a day for the first 2 or 3 months before you stretch it out, if you wish to stretch it out. When you stretch it out, do it gradually.


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## rannmiller

Yep, so long as the totals add up, thats all that matters. My dogs eat once a day and get their total meal then and they are happy campers.


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## RawFedDogs

Postal said:


> I was always taught that as long you pair any action with a consequence a dog appreciates or really likes, it always leads to positive effects.


Generally thats true unless you are making a nusiance out of yourself. Swap places with the dog for a minute. You are sitting down to a nice dinner and in the middle someone comes along and picks up your plate, holds it for a minute then puts it back down. Then they scratch your back a few minutes. Then they take your fork away for a few minutes. THen they scratch your back for a few minutes. Then they pick up your meat and leave the veggies. Then they put the meat back and scoop up your veggies. See what I mean. You will get tired of that pretty quickly and if its done 3 or 4 times a week, you really get tired of it quickly.

If the dog is showing no signs of being a prolbem, just leave him alone and let him enjoy his meal. If he is causing a problem, there are other ways to handle it.


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## Postal

Interesting.. makes sense 

I guess I was thinking of it as a way to "gradually" grow your dog's trust so that you could actually get down to take his food and give it back with a treat on top every now and then... but I didn't see how it could backfire. Thanks :smile:


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## rannmiller

I don't know, I really like having my back scratched, I could see it being a pleasant experience for me :biggrin:


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## Postal

rannmiller said:


> I don't know, I really like having my back scratched, I could see it being a pleasant experience for me :biggrin:


lmao same here :smile:

But I guess some animals/people might prefer a chicken leg instead of a back scratch heheh


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## EnglishBullTerriers

rockymtsweetie82 said:


> I would if it weren't so coooooold out there. That will work for spring - fall but not in the winter. Thanks! I'll keep that in mind for those warmer months.


Not trying to be rude, but, I have even let my dog out in the cold and snow with his food and let him back in when he is done. I do try to have his meat thawed before he goes out to make it a faster, easier eating process. Not sure how fast your dogs eats, but Owen will eat bones and all in under minutes. That's not too long for him to be out there and he even has his 'hiding place' behind the bushes where he will go and eat. He pops out from behind there and comes to the back door and wants back in before he gets too cold. 
I have also fed him in his crate when we stayed at friends houses. That is also a great way to crate train a dog. (to feed the dog in the crate and let him out when he is done. That way only positive things happen in the crate.) Now I can't seem to get Owen out of his crate some days. When it is 'naptime' he goes in and lays down with the door open. He will sleep for a couple hours and then he is ready to play again. Maybe you can try the crate thing for your dogs. Only close the door while they are eating and then open it when they are done. That can be their 'dining room kitchen' type thing!!  Good luck!


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## rockymtsweetie82

No thanks, but thanks. I'm not crate training my dogs. They have full run of the house and they love it. I'll just feed the dogs where they always eat and make the kids listen. =D


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## EnglishBullTerriers

Not a problem. Owen has always had some reason to be in a crate. When I got him I was told that he was crate trained and I figured that I would just put him in there to seperate the dogs durring feeding. Then the pit mix that I had, had puppies and since they shared a room, I had to keep them seperated for that also. Then I had to move out of my place and I stayed with some friends and I wasn't allowed to let my dogs run around their house. He had to be crated then also. I don't like crates and I swore that I would NEVER use one for my dogs!! Hehe... oops!!  Now we are at my parents and he stays in a his crate or outside. When I get my owne place again, I will be letting him run the house again!!! 

POWER TO THE PUPS!!


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## jeffitup

We may try this at some point. We're trying the best kibble we can afford-right now it's blue buffalo. We have show/bird dogs (4), my wife has some friends that cook/raw for their dogs & they are happy with it. We don't cook that much anyway at home for ourselves-sometimes eat out-kind of not motivated you might say in the kitchen. With 4 dogs here it might be kind of expensive & time consuming. She does give them some veggies & different stuff sometimes though. This is from someone (myself, wife probably knows it better) who is I guess somewhat ignorant of this natural/raw diet-it's really just feeding natural or raw uncooked ingredients like good meats/veggies right?:smile:


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## RawFedDogs

jeffitup said:


> This is from someone (myself, wife probably knows it better) who is I guess somewhat ignorant of this natural/raw diet-it's really just feeding natural or raw uncooked ingredients like good meats/veggies right?:smile:


Meat, bones, and organs. Dogs are carnivores and have no dietary need for fruits or veggies. You should research it some. Once you learn how to buy the food, its cheaper to feed a raw diet than the average kibble.


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## EnglishBullTerriers

jeffitup said:


> We may try this at some point. We're trying the best kibble we can afford-right now it's blue buffalo. We have show/bird dogs (4), my wife has some friends that cook/raw for their dogs & they are happy with it. We don't cook that much anyway at home for ourselves-sometimes eat out-kind of not motivated you might say in the kitchen. With 4 dogs here it might be kind of expensive & time consuming. She does give them some veggies & different stuff sometimes though. This is from someone (myself, wife probably knows it better) who is I guess somewhat ignorant of this natural/raw diet-it's really just feeding natural or raw uncooked ingredients like good meats/veggies right?:smile:


You should also be careful with the fruits, some will make a dog really sick (and that is a vet bill I am not willing to find out about). ;0
I only use veggies for treats when training. I will buy baby carrots and cut them to even smaller pieces, put them in my 'training treat pouch' and off we go! He now knows that, when that pouch comes out, its time to train. 

Welcome to the dark side!!! :biggrin:


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## Winniesdad

I'm interested in RAW but I'm not sure its the best bet for our household. We have two autistic children who get into everything. They're non-verbal although they do understand speech. 

They eat everything...really everything. They will put anything they find into their mounths. We can debate whether RAW is the best for dogs but I think even RFD might agree that raw room temperature chicken is not the best dish for autistic toddlers.

I'm intrigued though. It would be fun running around looking for good deals and I want to feed my dog well. Just makes me nervous having raw food out.


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## rannmiller

I'm just curious, do they eat your dog's food when you're feeding your dog?

This is a pretty easily avoidable situation, all you'd do is feed the dogs in a separate area from the children, like a laundry room or garage or outside, where you could close the door and they'd be separated from the dogs while they ate. My dogs eat outside every single day and they don't mind in the slightest.


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## Guest

Winniesdad said:


> I'm interested in RAW but I'm not sure its the best bet for our household. We have two autistic children who get into everything. They're non-verbal although they do understand speech.
> 
> They eat everything...really everything. They will put anything they find into their mounths. We can debate whether RAW is the best for dogs but I think even RFD might agree that raw room temperature chicken is not the best dish for autistic toddlers.
> 
> I'm intrigued though. It would be fun running around looking for good deals and I want to feed my dog well. Just makes me nervous having raw food out.


With your situation (I, too, have a 14 year old son with high-functioning autism) perhaps you could consider dehydrated raw (freeze-dried) in powder or chunk form that can be either kept in the fridge or in the pantry, away from the children. It is highly palatable for dogs, but does not smell that good to children. It is quite expensive. Nature's Variety makes a good freeze-dried formula to start with.


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## lifewrthlivings

*Well*

I still would say I think most people are just not willing to try something new. I am always surprised to find out the sort of things that my dog is willing to eat. But we are not willing to take that extra time to find out what they like and what is best for them

Warren D


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## Winniesdad

rannmiller said:


> I'm just curious, do they eat your dog's food when you're feeding your dog?
> 
> This is a pretty easily avoidable situation, all you'd do is feed the dogs in a separate area from the children, like a laundry room or garage or outside, where you could close the door and they'd be separated from the dogs while they ate. My dogs eat outside every single day and they don't mind in the slightest.



Yeah they try, we try to keep em away. Usually we are successful but sometimes they manage to get a kibble or two. I would worry about feeding outside as the kids try to eat everything out there too. Dirt, sand, whatever they can. Of course we do our best to stop em but a mouthful of dirt doesn't really hurt em but I would be worried about scraps of raw meat.


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## RawFedDogs

Winniesdad said:


> Of course we do our best to stop em but a mouthful of dirt doesn't really hurt em but I would be worried about scraps of raw meat.


I'm not going to tell you that raw meat won't make them sick because I donl't know. I do know some people on another list that eat all their food raw. They also eat raw meat regularly as well as raw veggies and fruits. One particular lady who I think is in her 40's or 50's said she has eaten raw hamburger meat since she was 6 years old. Her grandmother fed her raw hamburger. She has eaten raw meats all her life. Others on the list have also and they all claim its much healthier and more nutritious than cooked meats.

I eat my meats rare including hamburger meat I cook myself. I can't get restaurants to cook my hamburger meat rare. :smile: I also eat my eggs, not raw, but very runny. I cook my scrambled eggs just barely enough to be able to eat it with a fork.


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## rannmiller

Winniesdad said:


> Yeah they try, we try to keep em away. Usually we are successful but sometimes they manage to get a kibble or two. I would worry about feeding outside as the kids try to eat everything out there too. Dirt, sand, whatever they can. Of course we do our best to stop em but a mouthful of dirt doesn't really hurt em but I would be worried about scraps of raw meat.


Yes, but could you keep them inside while the dogs ate outside? My dogs usually take no more than 3 minutes to finish a meal, if they're taking their time. I can understand not wanting to worry about it though, for those just in case instances. But if you thought you could keep them outside or elsewhere behind a closed door to eat separate from the kids for a couple of minutes, then it might be worth a try.


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## whiteleo

I don't really know how much of a problem you'd have after the initial introduction of raw feeding. My dogs eat their food so quickly, it's gone in a matter of a few minutes, but I do feed them chicken wings instead of the larger cuts of chicken quarters. Tell me raw feeders, just how long does it take for your dogs to finish their meals?


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## RawFedDogs

whiteleo said:


> Tell me raw feeders, just how long does it take for your dogs to finish their meals?


1 to 2 minutes tops, unless I am feeding something like boston butt pork roast in which case it can take 4 or 5 minutes to eat the bone. A chicken quarter would be very close to 1 minute. A boneless meal of beef heart, maybe half a minute.


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## rannmiller

Same here.


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## Doc

Ok, I am slowly gaining an appreciation of raw feeding so bare with me. You guys are only feeding muscle meat, bones, and organs, correct? And you dogs are big, strong, and healthy without any additional food groups. And you feed a large dog (say 80 lbs.) about 2 lbs. of meat/organ/bone/ per day. So in other words, throw them some raw chicken wings or a leg or two and some organs on occasion, make sure they have some bones to chew and rotate between chicken, beef, pork, etc.

So it's that simple? What about all these other "raw" diets that require a culinary degree to prepare? Next someone will be preaching food presentation for raw fed dogs! ROFLMAO


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## RawFedDogs

Doc said:


> You guys are only feeding muscle meat, bones, and organs, correct?


Thats A LITTLE over simplified, but yes you are basically correct.



> And you dogs are big, strong, and healthy without any additional food groups.


Absolutely



> And you feed a large dog (say 80 lbs.) about 2 lbs. of meat/organ/bone/ per day.


Yep, thats pretty much it but I don't feed organ or bones every day. I only feed organs once a week or so. 2 or 3 days a week, I feed boneless.



> So in other words, throw them some raw chicken wings or a leg or two and some organs on occasion, make sure they have some bones to chew and rotate between chicken, beef, pork, etc.


Again, thats a little over simplified. Chicken wings or legs are too small for an 80lb dog. They would eat chicken quarters or breasts and they don't need other bones to chew on other than what is in their meals.



> So it's that simple? What about all these other "raw" diets that require a culinary degree to prepare? Next someone will be preaching food presentation for raw fed dogs! ROFLMAO


Hehe, there are some people, usually Moms who have a great need to "do something" for their dogs and go to great lengths to prepare elaborate meals and a ton of supplements for their dogs. I just stand at the kitchen sink and hand out animal parts. I give no supplements except for glucosimine for my more elderdy dog who has recently developed a bad hip.

Check out my web page listed in my sig. It goes into a little more detail about feeding raw.


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## rannmiller

Doc said:


> Ok, I am slowly gaining an appreciation of raw feeding so bare with me. You guys are only feeding muscle meat, bones, and organs, correct? And you dogs are big, strong, and healthy without any additional food groups. And you feed a large dog (say 80 lbs.) about 2 lbs. of meat/organ/bone/ per day. So in other words, throw them some raw chicken wings or a leg or two and some organs on occasion, make sure they have some bones to chew and rotate between chicken, beef, pork, etc.
> 
> So it's that simple? What about all these other "raw" diets that require a culinary degree to prepare? Next someone will be preaching food presentation for raw fed dogs! ROFLMAO


Yeah that's pretty much it, except as RFD pointed out those parts you mentioned would be a little small for any dog over 30 lbs, you'd want to go with the bigger parts. 

All the other "raw" diets like BARF and whatever else is out there are way more complicated because they're marketing it and attempting to make money off of it. How many books and other silly things could you sell with an explanation as long as RFD's webpage? Or better yet, as long as your explanation? Not a whole lot. So they soup it up a bit to suck people in and think it's more complicated than it is so they need this fancy manual to go about doing things. 

I think that's where raw starts to get a bad rap too. With kibble it's: Pour the food in the bowl. With their version of raw it's: Buy this book, read it all the way through, then read this other book, then order chicken backs, only feed those at these times, but you have to feed veggies too even though your dog doesn't need them and it will cause diarrhea, and you have to process the veggies, then feed this type of bone, etc. When all raw really takes is about the same amount of prep time as kibble does (at least for me). 

I choose what the pups are gonna eat the next morning, pull it out of the freezer and put it in the fridge overnight to thaw. After I eat breakfast the next morning, I pull their portion out of the bag and hand it to them on my back patio. Sometimes if it's a big chunk of meat, then it takes me an extra 30 seconds to chop it into thirds for my dogs to share, but that's about the most amount of time I ever spend preparing their meals.


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## Doc

Now we are getting down to the basics! Ok, bigger pieces for bigger dogs - backs and quarters and necks? Maybe 3-4 times per week. Then what? Just boneless meat chunks the other 3 or 4 days? Organs 1 or two times a week? Hearts, gizzards, brains, lamb fries, mountain oysters, and that nasty thing called liver? From cow and/or chicken, lamb, goat, oxen, brontosaurus etc.

Of course i will do my best Julia Child when throwing a bloody heart to my salivating pack! roflmao "You .... take the haot and slowly .... slowly ripped it apot ... and wash it down with a little red wine ....."


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## EnglishBullTerriers

Doc said:


> Now we are getting down to the basics! Ok, bigger pieces for bigger dogs - backs and quarters and necks? Maybe 3-4 times per week. Then what? Just boneless meat chunks the other 3 or 4 days? Organs 1 or two times a week? Hearts, gizzards, brains, lamb fries, mountain oysters, and that nasty thing called liver? From cow and/or chicken, lamb, goat, oxen, brontosaurus etc.
> 
> Of course i will do my best Julia Child when throwing a bloody heart to my salivating pack! roflmao "You .... take the haot and slowly .... slowly ripped it apot ... and wash it down with a little red wine ....."


What is wrong with your head?? :wink: Where do you come up with this stuff? Between you, RFD, WhiteLeo and ranmiller, you are the ones that I come on here to read the most recent posts from. WhiteLeo has EBT's like myself (although no pictures posted yet!!  ) and we share stories sometimes. RFD and ranmiller have really good insight on feeding raw and what to do next. But you... I sit here and LMAO just reading the crazy posts you put on here!! 
Thanks for that!! Some days I need it more then others, but it always helps to have a good laugh at least once a day!! :biggrin:


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## Doc

Well you see it's like this, my mammy said I was a bit touched in da head at birff so I jest sayz wots on my mind. RFD realizin that if I am going to understand sumptin it got to be real real simple. rofl.

Of course, I got 3 big ol dawgs that keep me tinking bout wot day gonna at next. I wuz tinking bout "visiting" my neighbors hen house late one nite and start my raw prey diet! Corse he a preacher and dat just wouldn't be rite.

And as far as ol Julia, God rest her soul, well that big woman could make anything sould like it was good to eat.

I have German shepherds - large, over-the-standard German shepherds which in some circles makes me a horrible, disrepectable, greedy, byb, puppy mill SOB. :smile: Even though my bloodlines go back 6 generations and we breed first and formost for health and temperament. :tongue: If you would like to see my dogs, just pm me. I'll give you a link.


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## Doc

PS I ain't figgered out how you pose to do pictures on here anyway. Dats way ober my head. :biggrin:


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## rannmiller

what are you feeding now, doc? 

Posting pics is easy, go to tinypic.com and upoload your pictures. Once it's uploaded click on the picture, then click on the option for it in it's "raw" form. Copy the link then come back over here and when you go to post, click the little picture icon that's kinda yellow with a mountain and moon/sun, paste the link in the window that pops up and presto! you have pics in your post!


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## Doc

I am currently feeding the following:

Max - male GSD 95 lbs. 2 cups Kirkland Signiture Lamb and Rice plus 1 cup Abady Maint. & Stress w/ probotics and salmon oil

Bella - female GSD 82 lbs. same as above

Sugar - female GSD 1 year old 80 lbs. She gets a home cooked diet of hamburger, ground chicken, cabbage, squash, broccoli, carrots, whole wheat bread crumbs, cheese and quick oats plus 1 cup of Abady Maint. & Stress w/ probotics and salmon oil. Sugar had major intestinal surgery at 4 months and had a foot of her small intestine removed. It took months to find a food that didn't "run" right through her.

In the past, all of the dogs were eating Orijen Adult but I have to have it shipped to me and freight is driving the price way up. They also had Honest Kitchen but grew tired of it.

All are fed in the morning and night. The above amounts are total therefore, 1/2 at each feeding.


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## claybuster

rannmiller said:


> I'm just curious (and certainly not trying to attack anyone), why don't some people feed raw?


Why bother? Peek around at some of the threads here, apparently cheap omnivore kibble diets don't cause our animals any problems. Look at all those wonderful industry scientific studies never blaming the food. Even the raw feeders here willfully admit the foods should not be blamed. If kibble diets do not cause our dogs problems, why feed raw?


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## jdatwood

claybuster said:


> Why bother? Peek around at some of the threads here, apparently cheap omnivore kibble diets don't cause our animals any problems. Look at all those wonderful industry scientific studies never blaming the food. Even the raw feeders here willfully admit the foods should not be blamed. If kibble diets do not cause our dogs problems, why feed raw?


Wow, resorting to digging up 6 month old threads now huh?

This thread is about feeding RAW. 

Nobody ever said that kibble diets don't cause any health problems. You really seem to enjoy twisting words around for your hidden agenda.

I'm a RAW feeder. I feed my pets (dogs and cats) raw meat, bones, and organs because I KNOW that kibble can cause MANY health issues.


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## claybuster

jdatwood said:


> Wow, resorting to digging up 6 month old threads now huh?
> 
> This thread is about feeding RAW.
> 
> Nobody ever said that kibble diets don't cause any health problems. You really seem to enjoy twisting words around for your hidden agenda.
> 
> I'm a RAW feeder. I feed my pets (dogs and cats) raw meat, bones, and organs because I KNOW that kibble can cause MANY health issues.


Thanks RFD


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## claybuster

jdatwood said:


> Wow, resorting to digging up 6 month old threads now huh?


There's got to be something better to do than troll people around? Got any sort of a life?


----------



## jdatwood

claybuster said:


> There's got to be something better to do than troll people around? Got any sort of a life?


I most certainly do :biggrin:

I ride motorcycles
Picasa Web Albums - Jon - High Plains R...

I travel
Picasa Web Albums - Jon - Las Vegas 2009
Picasa Web Albums - Jon - Tortola 2009

I support local & national charities
Picasa Web Albums - Jon - Hope on the S...

I ski
Picasa Web Albums - Jon - Beaver Creek '09

I have an awesome time with my dogs
Picasa Web Albums - Jon - Fun with the ...

I enjoy letting loose with friends and playing dressup 
Picasa Web Albums - Jon - Halloween 08 ...

I enjoy wine, good beer, long walks on the beach, candle lit dinners, mountain hikes, swimming in the ocean, watching romantic movies, cooking, sleeping, poking dead things with sticks, and feeding my dogs raw meat, bones and organs for the sake of their health 

Thanks for asking!!!


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## RawFedDogs

jdatwood said:


> I enjoy wine, good beer, long walks on the beach, candle lit dinners, mountain hikes, swimming in the ocean, watching romantic movies, cooking, sleeping, poking dead things with sticks, and feeding my dogs raw meat, bones and organs for the sake of their health
> 
> Thanks for asking!!!


Dang Jon!!! Sounds like you are asking CB for a date!!! :biggrin::biggrin::biggrin:


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## claybuster

RawFedDogs said:


> Dang Jon!!! Sounds like you are asking CB for a date!!! :biggrin::biggrin::biggrin:


lol...sorry Boyzzz happily married, and next Feb will make 18 years. Pheww, never thought we make it past 6 months let alone 17 years.


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## DaneMama

RawFedDogs said:


> Dang Jon!!! Sounds like you are asking CB for a date!!!


LOL...that's what I told him to do just ease the mood lately :biggrin:

but apparently Jon comes off as gay...so I guess it was maybe not the best thought


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## jdatwood

RawFedDogs said:


> Dang Jon!!! Sounds like you are asking CB for a date!!! :biggrin::biggrin::biggrin:


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## Unosmom

I feed about 30% raw at this point, but few challenges that I've come across:
1) Inconviniance, especially when going on trips, which I do a lot.
2) Fear of misbalancing the nutrients and not feeding enough/too much
3) Hygiene issues
4) Expensive if not bought on sale, etc, there arent any co-op places around here and its hard to find stuff thats worth buying in biulk.
5) This is probably the main reason for me, lack of freezer space.
6) I also find cutting up meat, especially bloody stuff, quite repulsive, but I do it for the sake of dog.


I dont have anything against people who feed raw, good for you, but I wouldnt critisize anyone who'd chose to feed kibble, canned, etc.


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## RawFedDogs

Unosmom said:


> I feed about 30% raw at this point, but few challenges that I've come across:
> 1) Inconviniance, especially when going on trips, which I do a lot.


This is usually not a problem depending on what types of trips you take. If you are gone for 2 or 3 days, you can ice down the dog's food in a cooler. If you are gone for longer but not out in the wilderness you can always buy chicken parts (quarters, breasts, etc) in most any grocery store. If you back pack into the wilderness you can always take freeze dried on those trips.



> 2) Fear of misbalancing the nutrients and not feeding enough/too much


Thats just not a problem. It's pretty difficult to unbalance a prey model raw diet. Nature has taken care of all the balance for you. Exact balance isn't critical anyway. There is not a soul on earth who can tell you what the ideal balance is. Here is MY balance ... "mostly meat, some bone, and some organs." There, that's all the balance that is needed.



> 3) Hygiene issues


This is an imaginary problem. Sometimes a great fear by people who are not used to feeding raw. I never give it a thought. I wash my hands after feeding dogs and wash off the counter with a wet paper towel and thats it. Neither me, nor any member of my family, nor any visitor to my house has become sick because of the dog's diet. I have grandchildren who play in the floor and play with the dogs and they don't have a problem. Because of medicine my wife has to take, her immune system is kept very compromised all time. She feeds the dogs half the time. (She feeds in mornings, I feed in evenings.)



> 4) Expensive if not bought on sale, etc, there arent any co-op places around here and its hard to find stuff thats worth buying in biulk.


There are lots of solutions for money when feeding raw. It will take you several months to learn how to shop for raw. I feed 2 Great Danes and 2 cats on less than $80/mo. I buy chicken backs and quarters, turkey necks and wings, and beef heart in bulk. I have always had good luck getting bulk stuff very cheap in small independent grocery stores (not chains). I get them to add my order to their normal order. There are coops all over the country.



> 5) This is probably the main reason for me, lack of freezer space.


A freezer is pretty important if you want to get serious about feeding raw unless you have one small dog and nothing else. You can often find freezers REAL CHEAP on craigslist. I mean like less than $100.



> 6) I also find cutting up meat, especially bloody stuff, quite repulsive, but I do it for the sake of dog.


The more you do it, the easier it gets. I find it facinating. I like cutting up a beef heart and studying all the veins, valves and stuff inside. :smile:



> I dont have anything against people who feed raw, good for you, but I wouldnt critisize anyone who'd chose to feed kibble, canned, etc.


By far, the greatest majority of kibble feeders don't know any better and have never found a reason to take the time to study learn the true facts.


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## jdatwood

I agree with pretty much everything RFD said.

We feed 4 dogs and a cat for around $5-6/day buying in bulk ($1.25 PER dog PER day). They're all 70-120lbs so they get ~2lbs of meat a day

If the dogs travel with us we'll either bring frozen meat in a cooler that thaws over the life of the trip OR we'll pick up something from the store where we're at. It's easy enough to go into any store and find some chicken on sale

Our first freezer we used we got for free (fridge/freezer combo). You can find 'em cheap/FREE on Craigslist (or even garage sales)

I don't see the cleanup as any worse than cooking a meal for ourselves. We started breaking our meat down into plastic storage containers we keep in the freezer. 1 container is 2 days worth of meat for the dogs. We'll take everyone out back, disperse the food and then keep the rest for the next day while defrosting a new tub for the next cycle. We alternate the meats in the tubs so they're not eating the same every day.

I won't criticize someone for feeding kibble but I'll definitely make sure they understand they're not taking the best care of their animals diets. I sometimes equate it to feeding your children McDonald's every meal of every day. You wouldn't do that would you?


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## claybuster

jdatwood said:


> I agree with pretty much everything RFD said. ...
> 
> I sometimes equate it to feeding your children McDonald's every meal of every day. You wouldn't do that would you?


More like toasted cereal. In my case, Rice Krispies, har har har:biggrin:


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## CorgiPaws

For me, it's my living situation. 
I moved in with my grandparents to save money before my wedding in December. (hey, can't beat rent-free!!) They're very structured people, and when I tried to take over their freezer to do raw, it didn't last very long... especially when canning season started and my grandmother filled the freezer full (and I mean FULL) of homemade jam. 
They aren't fond of the idea of me putting a freezer box anywhere in the garage or outside, (the garage is my grandpa's workshop, and his yard is his pride & joy) so my raw feeding is on hold just until December. When I move out again.

I don't understand the "it's too expensive" debate. I have yet to find a butcher to order in bulk from and was only buying meats from wal mart, and bones from my place of employment. I can tell you I am DEFINATELY spending more on Evo now than I was the raw diet then.. and not just a little more, either.


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## jdatwood

Linsey, I can totally understand your situation. I suppose there are certain times in life that someone might not be able to feed RAW...


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## rannmiller

Yeah, that definitely does suck. What about buying a cooler? It's not like dogs need to have their meat as absolutely frozen fresh as possible. Before I got my freezer I had to keep my extra meat in a cooler for a while and it was totally fine (just remember to add the ice) though it could be a bit of a pain in the ass for sure. Just a thought. It'd be easier for your since you said you don't buy in bulk anyway, so at least you wouldnt have huge quantities of meat left unstored. But it's totally understandable also if you don't want to do that.


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## whiteleo

Are you sure you can't find a dog food raw feeding co-op. I thought I had exhausted all possibibilities in my area, and I contacted radcat because I wanted to buy duck necks in bulk from them and she turned me on to a co-op for WA-OR, I looked everywhere but the Yahoo groups, and that is where they were.


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## rannmiller

I LOVE radcat :smile:


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## CorgiPaws

rannmiller said:


> Before I got my freezer I had to keep my extra meat in a cooler for a while and it was totally fine (just remember to add the ice) though it could be a bit of a pain in the ass for sure. Just a thought. It'd be easier for your since you said you don't buy in bulk anyway, so at least you wouldnt have huge quantities of meat left unstored. But it's totally understandable also if you don't want to do that.


I thought about doing that, but keeping up on the ice, keeping it away from the dogs (Champ could open one- no problem. He can open just about anything, actually. Our house has baby locks on everything. ) and it's just a little more upkeep than what I feel like doing at the moment. 
I'm working a lot, and wedding planning, trying to get things all lined up to move out of state in december, etc. 
When the move happens, though, we're putting a full size freezer in the garage, and doing what's best for the dogs. :biggrin:


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## chowder

I'm sorry if this has been answered somewhere already, (I tried to read thru all the posts but didn't see it). Rocky eats Orijen and Evo dry kibble and Evo canned. We travel 30 days and longer in a motor home so full time raw would be difficult with the tiny freezer and camping out in the middle of nowhere. Can I just toss him some raw food when I have it while he is still eating his regular diet? Like when I am making a chicken or turkey and have the innards or wings. I don't want him to end up with any GI upsets when we are traveling. 

Second question is about those big smoked bones they sell at the grocery store. They have a whole bin of them for sale for dogs but since they are smoked, I wasn't sure if they were safe to give them. What about soup bones? We used to get those for the dogs at the grocery store and let them gnaw on them all day (years and years ago). Are those safe or not? Poor Rocky has never had a bone and I want him to know he really is a dog! He sure can't learn from Chelsy, my 12 year old Lhasa with an attitude and very few teeth. I'm not sure what bones she could gnaw on. 

Thanks....


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## RawFedDogs

chowder said:


> Can I just toss him some raw food when I have it while he is still eating his regular diet? Like when I am making a chicken or turkey and have the innards or wings.


It's not recommended but many people do without problem. If it is very much like almost a meal, I would not feed kibble and raw together in the same meal. One meal of one and one meal of the other. If they are just little snacks, don't worry about it.



> Second question is about those big smoked bones they sell at the grocery store. They have a whole bin of them for sale for dogs but since they are smoked, I wasn't sure if they were safe to give them.


Smoked bones = cooked bones ... cooked bones can splinter and cause serious problems. Steer clear of them.



> What about soup bones?


Soup bones are knuckle bones or cut up femur bones from a cow. These bones are designed to hold up 1,000 lbs or more. They are very dense. They are more dense than your dog's teeth. Depending on how hard he chews, he can chip, break, or fracture his teeth.. If he chews lightly, no problem. If he chews hard, could be a serous problem.


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## BabyHusky

i cant believe i never posted on this thread...granted it was about the time my poor pup got hit by a car so maybe I was just MIA.

I've said it multiple times before but for me, its mainly the price. I live in Newport Beach and have yet to find any small market, butcher, etc that is willing to make the price affordable. My fault for picking Orange County I suppose. Many people talked about Walmart and unluckily for me, theres no Walmart 200 miles from me that carries meat. Yay. Couple of my neighbors feed raw, but they're loaded and literally buy meat for their dogs at Costco when they go to buy their own. I've had long conversations with them regarding feeding raw and finding butchers that would give me good pricing for bulk and they both informed me that no one will. Supply and demand huh? The other people in the area are willing to pay full price for even in bulk so why give me a discount. Once again, yay.

So until I happen to find a place thats willing to accommodate or I win the lottery, my pup will be on Orijen and Evo.


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## RawFedDogs

BabyHusky said:


> I live in Newport Beach and have yet to find any small market, butcher, etc that is willing to make the price affordable.


As I have said before, it takes a few months to learn how to shop for your dogs raw diet. Don't ever call any of these small markets or butcher shops on the phone. Always visit in person. Always talk to the store owner or meat manager. No one else. Explain to them that they don't have to do anything but add your order to their regular order and they don't have to do anything to your order except put it in their cooler until you pick it up a few hours after it arrives. They don't have to unbox, package, weigh or anything. Just put your cases of stuff in the cooler and you will be there in a few hours to pick it up. There is absolutely no extra work for them and it's easy money. Tell them you will be buying around $100/mo after you get started. You won't buy nearly that much but no need to tell them that. This is such easy money for them they should jump at the chance to do business with you. You just have to make them understand how easy it willl be for them.



> Couple of my neighbors feed raw, but they're loaded and literally buy meat for their dogs at Costco when they go to buy their own.


All of you go together to visit these stores. Tell them you will be buying $400-$500/month. This should give them more incentive.



> I've had long conversations with them regarding feeding raw and finding butchers that would give me good pricing for bulk and they both informed me that no one will.


They just haven't learned how to talk to these people yet. You need to get to know the owner and/or meat manager. The place I buy my meat, I know the meat manager by first name. I know his kids names, his wife's name. I have met his wife and kids. I know about his health problems. I have gotten to know him well and it has served me well.



> Supply and demand huh? The other people in the area are willing to pay full price for even in bulk so why give me a discount. Once again, yay.


It's all in knowing how. Anyone if they use the proper approach can get this stuff real cheap. It takes a while to get good at it. You don't just jump in and get the best deals on earth.



> So until I happen to find a place thats willing to accommodate or I win the lottery, my pup will be on Orijen and Evo.


I'm afraid you aren't gonna find it until you jump in first and learn the ropes. It doesn't work the way you want it to and you will always have this excuse not to feed your dogs a raw diet.


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## rawfeederr

Well, some people, "don't have the money for it" apparently... but it's usually WAY cheaper than high quality kibble.

Other people are concerned about bones breaking & bacteria... both which are myths; yet people are ignorant.
Some dogs don't do well on raw.
Some dogs have to be on a special diet.
Some people don't have the time.
It's too messy for some people; some people can't handle the sight of raw meat.


There are more reasons... but overall I think most people SHOULD be able to feed raw, but don't.


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## EnglishBullTerriers

Can I just say how much I LOVE craigslist!! I just posted another add for some raw meat and this guy emails me and says 'I have about 50-60lbs that I want out of my freezer!!' I went and picked it up today and it is all wild boar!! Aparently, the guy trapped a couple of them a couple of years ago and had them butchered the beginning of this year after feeding them in a pen and he said that the meat is tough, but nothing wrong with it!! The guy puts it in the car and says, 'let those dogs know that they are eating high on the hog right now!!' too funny. He bid me farewell and walked back inside!! Didn't pay for a thing!!! I love awsomely nice people!! 


And THATS how you do it!! :biggrin: :wink:


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## Guest

RawFedDogs said:


> It's not recommended but many people do without problem.


And why isn't it recommended? Not recommended by whom? 

My best friend has a mini schnauzer that's 12 years old now. The dog is fed 1/2 cup of grain-free kibble along with some sliced "Bravo" raw diet at each meal. The dog looks and acts like a puppy. Has been fed that way for a long time. Vet says the dog is in great health.


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## RawFedDogs

LabbieMama said:


> And why isn't it recommended? Not recommended by whom?
> 
> My best friend has a mini schnauzer that's 12 years old now. The dog is fed 1/2 cup of grain-free kibble along with some sliced "Bravo" raw diet at each meal. The dog looks and acts like a puppy. Has been fed that way for a long time. Vet says the dog is in great health.


It is not recommended by experienced knowledgable raw feeders. The reason is because the dog's digestive system is designed to digest and get the undigestable parts of the food out of the system quickly before bacteria builds up in the intestinal tract and causes the dog to get sick. Raw meat, bones, and organs usually are digested and out of the body in just a very few hours. The meat is out of the body before a large growth of bacteria can build up and the meat rot. 

Kibble digests very slowly. When it is in the digestive tract, it will hold up any meat that happens to come in behind it and leave the rotting meat in the intestines for 12 hours or so. This is not good for the dog.

Like I said in my earlier post, If you are giving a small amount of meat such as a treat, it's not really a big deal but if you are feeding substantial amounts of meat, it can cause serious problems.


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## Unosmom

> By far, the greatest majority of kibble feeders don't know any better and have never found a reason to take the time to study learn the true facts.


I have done my share of research, so you can critisize my decisions all you want, but its not going to change my situation. I buy raw when I can, if its on sale I'll get more and freeze it, I dont have a space for a freezer now, but hopefully in near future. With traveling I mean that I go on trips a lot, hiking, camping, theres just no way I'm going to lug around raw meat. 
I dont see a problem with a dog eating a wide variety of foods, Uno eats kibble and canned and raw and cooked, he also likes homemade cottage cheese, yogurt and goat milk, soups made from scratch, sardines and I share my breakfast of oatmeal with almond milk with him. Hes happy and thriving and I wouldnt change that for the world.


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## RawFedDogs

Unosmom said:


> I dont see a problem with a dog eating a wide variety of foods, Uno eats kibble and canned and raw and cooked, he also likes homemade cottage cheese, yogurt and goat milk, soups made from scratch, sardines and I share my breakfast of oatmeal with almond milk with him. Hes happy and thriving and I wouldnt change that for the world.


If you are happy feeding them the equivalent of human fast foods such as pizza, candy, cake, ice cream, french fries, etc, then far be it from me stop you. I don't think you've done the research. You wouldn't be so happy with his diet if you had.


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## Unosmom

How is it equivalent to fast food? you have a very narrow minded ideas not to mentioned biased ideas regarding nutrition, even looking at the diet of the wolf, they will consume carcasses that have been frozen over the winter and then resurfaced during the melt, its not the freshest meat, but they can handle it. They also eat berries and grasses to air digestion. Dogs have been so called "table scraps" for years with no ill effects, in fact I grew up in a small country in europe where most dogs are fed "leftovers" meaning things like porridge mixed with meat and vegetables because nothing else was available and most lived without seeing a vet, my friend still have her staffordshire terrier mix thats the size of a great dane and he's at least 16 right now. Dogs have iron stomachs, if they can yield nutrients from something, I dont see why its not acceptable. I dont eat fast food myself or any of those things you mentioned and its not even closely comparable nutrition wise. Youre talking greasy, artery clogging, sugar and salt laden crap, compared to wholesome nutritional ingridients.


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## RawFedDogs

Unosmom said:


> How is it equivalent to fast food?


Because much of it is mostly indigestable by dogs because of their jaw structure, dentation, and digestive juice chemistry.



> you have a very narrow minded ideas not to mentioned biased ideas regarding nutrition, even looking at the diet of the wolf, they will consume carcasses that have been frozen over the winter and then resurfaced during the melt, its not the freshest meat, but they can handle it.


I have an educated mind that is neither biesed nor narrow minded. There is a correct diet to feed a canine that is superior to all others. It is the diet they had evolved over millions of years to properly chew, digest, and extract nutrients from. You are right about frozen meat. I have no problems with feeding previously frozen meats. Most of the food my dogs get is previously frozen. I have no problem with dogs eating "ripe" or partially decomposing meat. The were designed and equipped to eat those things. My dogs have eaten some pretty rotten meat with no ill effects.



> They also eat berries and grasses to air digestion.


Wolf experts can find no reason for wolves to eat berries other than they taste good because of the sugar in them. I'm not sure wolves eat grasses like our dogs sometimes do and no one has ever been able to determine for sure why they eat it. Maybe for taste or maybe to help them vomit but I doubt the vomit idea. I think dogs can vomit without eating grass.



> Dogs have been so called "table scraps" for years with no ill effects, in fact I grew up in a small country in europe where most dogs are fed "leftovers" meaning things like porridge mixed with meat and vegetables because nothing else was available and most lived without seeing a vet, my friend still have her staffordshire terrier mix thats the size of a great dane and he's at least 16 right now.


Table scraps are probably healthier for a dog to eat than kibble or canned food but still not the ideal. There are all kinds of food a dog can survive on. Some are better than others. I would rate them like this from worse to best:
1. Kibble
2. Canned dog food
3. Table scraps (the higher the meat content the better it is)
4. A cooked mostly meat diet
5. Freeze dried raw meat, bones and organs
6. Frozen pre-made raw pattie diets. (the fewer fruits & veggies the better it is)
7. A BARF diet
8. A prey model raw diet of meat, bones, and organs

Any given dog can survive and sometimes appear to thrive on any of these diets. It just depends on how far you want to stray from the ideal.



> Dogs have iron stomachs, if they can yield nutrients from something, I dont see why its not acceptable.


It depends on how much nutrition they can extract from any given food and what those nutrients are. Because of jaw structure, dentation and stomach juice chemistry. Any food item can contain tons of nutrients but if the dog is unable to extract them, they may as well not be there. Very little if any nutrients are bioavailable to dogs from plant material unless it has been pureed and then the types of nutrients are questionable. If you must puree or otherwise process a food for a dog to digest, obviuosly nature didn't intend for the dog to eat that food.



> I dont eat fast food myself or any of those things you mentioned and its not even closely comparable nutrition wise. Youre talking greasy, artery clogging, sugar and salt laden crap, compared to wholesome nutritional ingridients.


I think you are trying to equate canine nutritional needs with human nutritional needs. Actually, greasy, artery clogging stuff is not a problem for canines. Sugar and salt are terrible. Any kind of carbs are bad for dogs. Grains are bad for dogs and many people say they are bad for humans also. 
Dogs are designed to eat a lot protein, fat, and water and no carbs. There is no dietary need for carbs in a dog's diet. Carbs provide no useful function in a dog's body.


----------



## Unosmom

It is digestable if the cell wall is broken down in plant matter, such as juicing ( I used vegetable pulp to make soup) so its fine for dogs. Wolves are oportunistic eaters, they will eat what is available to them, even mushrooms , grasshoppers, earthworms, and flowers, if they could come across some yogurt, they would lap it up too. 
And while dogs have same digestive systems as wolves, they've adapted to live along side with humans and eat variety of things, some of which are beneficial while other serve no purpose and are just a filler. 
So unless you can somehow find information that backs up your claim that those things I feed are harming my dog, its based entirely on your personal feelings, not solid evidence. 

on a light note heres a cute video I came across of wolves ( possibly coyotes eating rosehips, I used to eat them myself, they arent very sweet, but great source of antioxidants and rich in vitamin C)

YouTube - Wolves eating berries!


----------



## RawFedDogs

Unosmom said:


> It is digestable if the cell wall is broken down in plant matter, such as juicing ( I used vegetable pulp to make soup) so its fine for dogs.


If you have to "juice" plant matter then I think you can assume they are not needed by dogs. There is not a place in a dog's diet for them. Hurt them? Probably not. Benefit them? Also probably not as there is nothing in them that is needed.



> Wolves are oportunistic eaters, they will eat what is available to them, even mushrooms , grasshoppers, earthworms, and flowers, if they could come across some yogurt, they would lap it up too.


Mushrooms are a fungus. I have never seen anything authoratative about dogs eating mushrooms. Grasshoppers and earthworms are animals and would make good food for a wolf/dog although I doubt wild wolves would eat any unless near starvation. Flowers and yogurt I seriously doubt are just not part of a wild wolf's diet.



> And while dogs have same digestive systems as wolves, they've adapted to live along side with humans and eat variety of things, some of which are beneficial while other serve no purpose and are just a filler.


IF they've adapted (they haven't) then their digestive system would not be the same a sa wild wolf's (they are). Perhaps we agree that any plant matter is nothing more than filler. Remember that in the nutritional sense, filler is merely something to provide bulk and provide no nutrition.



> So unless you can somehow find information that backs up your claim that those things I feed are harming my dog, its based entirely on your personal feelings, not solid evidence.


I doubt you are harming your dog with what you are feeding other than taking up valuable stomach space better served by more nutritious foods. Fruits and veggies won't poison your dog, they just don't supply nutrition. That isn't opinion, it's proven fact. My proof is that dogs are carnivores. Carnivores don't eat plants. If they ate plants, they would be called omnivores. I can give you proof that a dog is a carnivore and not an omnivore if you wish. Those are not my personal feelings they are facts.



> on a light note heres a cute video I came across of wolves ( possibly coyotes eating rosehips, I used to eat them myself, they arent very sweet, but great source of antioxidants and rich in vitamin C)


Hehe, that is a cute video. I'm like you, I tend to think those are coyotes. Again, as I said earlier. Wolves don't eat berries for nutrition. Just because any particular animal eats something doesn't mean they benefit from it.

*ETA:* Dog's have no need for Vit C in their diet as the manufacture what they need internally in their liver.


----------



## rannmiller

RawFedDogs said:


> I doubt you are harming your dog with what you are feeding other than taking up valuable stomach space better served by more nutritious foods. Fruits and veggies won't poison your dog, they just don't supply nutrition.


Hasn't Claybuster been saying that fruits and vegetables actually do release toxins into a carnivore's system that slowly poisons them over time? Or am I just misremembering? Of course that could just be Abady propaganda as well. 

Either way, my dog's don't get any of that. Just meat, bones, organs, tripe, and eggs for the most part. The worst they get is a dog biscuit or a bit of pizza crust as a treat every now and then (and by that I mean only when my boyfriend sneaks it to them before I can stop him).


----------



## Unosmom

Wolves wouldnt consume young grass and berries if it didnt offer some nutritional benefit, and since you said it youself that scientists have not found a concrete evidence to explain this behavior, I'm not going to dismiss the fact that they probably do it because they know better. 
Coyotes are known to raid some gardens and eat fallen apples as well as wild grapes and even pumpkin, the ammount of veggies that I do feed is fractional to the meat, and since he likes it, I will continue to feed it.


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## RawFedDogs

rannmiller said:


> Hasn't Claybuster been saying that fruits and vegetables actually do release toxins into a carnivore's system that slowly poisons them over time?


Hehe, If CB said that, it probably means fruit and veggies are really the best thing you can feed them. :biggrin:


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## RawFedDogs

Unosmom said:


> Wolves wouldnt consume young grass and berries if it didnt offer some nutritional benefit, and since you said it youself that scientists have not found a concrete evidence to explain this behavior, I'm not going to dismiss the fact that they probably do it because they know better.


I don't buy that wolves are any other animals have a mystical ability to know what is healthy for them to eat.



> Coyotes are known to raid some gardens and eat fallen apples as well as wild grapes and even pumpkin, the ammount of veggies that I do feed is fractional to the meat, and since he likes it, I will continue to feed it.


Doesn't mean they are deriving any nutrition from them. Basically, they can't. If you are feeding a few veggies, I'm relatively certain that no harm is being done.

*ETA:* Afterall, kibble is about 50% veggies.


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## Unosmom

they eat young grass shoots because sprouting grass contains the most nutrients compared to old one, I dont buy the fact that they consume these things just because, theres always a reason, were just not always aware of it.


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## RawFedDogs

When a dog eats grass, one of two things happen every single time. No exceptions. 
1. Either the grass is regurgitated pretty quickly in which case it comes out looking just like they did when going in plus some yellow bile added to it.
2. It comes out the other end looking just like it did when it went in except its twisted in a neat little rope. Wonder how they do that? :biggrin: Either way it comes out looking just like it did going in which says no nutrients were extracted. Remember you have to crush the celluolose cell covering to extract nutrients and that isn't done.

My Goldens used to really eat grass fast when I was mowing. They would eat the tallest grass that I hadn't mowed yet. I don't know if they were eating it because it tasted good and they wanted it before I mowed it or they thought they were helping me mow. :smile:


----------



## Unosmom

my dog eats quite a bit of wheatgrass that I grow for myself and I've never seen him poop out any blades of undigested grass, though he chews it in bundles which releases some of the juice in the system, I guess every dog is different.


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## RawFedDogs

Hehe. Nope. Every dog is not different. Every dog is exactly like all the others as far as digestion and nutrition go, assuming good health.


----------



## rannmiller

Unosmom said:


> they eat young grass shoots because sprouting grass contains the most nutrients compared to old one, I dont buy the fact that they consume these things just because, theres always a reason, were just not always aware of it.


I eat cookies, other baked goods, and sweets because they are delicious. I don't ever believe there's any nutritional benefit to them for me, but I do it anyway!


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## Unosmom

thats hardly the same thing, I dont know if you ever tasted wheatgrass, its pretty disgusting, but its quite beneficial.


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## BGBY

This is just what I was looking for! Thank you so much for the debate! 

My girls are going on their 3rd day of RAW and they seem to like it! The first night, they had chicken wings and watching my youngest dog Ava handle it was quite comical. It took her awhile but she got it down with no problems. Casey, my older girl didn't quite like it but I'm not giving up. I will try again and maybe sear it as suggested. 

I will be harvesting their venison this hunting season. I have about 40lbs in my freezer that the neighbor said I could have so the girls will be having venison for breakfast tomorrow. They also have whole squirrels at my dad's that I have to pick up. I put in request for the innards of my immediate family's harvest this year too. Every lil bit counts! 

I gave them salmon and raw eggs for breakfast and they were inlove with it. My hubby isn't thrilled with me feeding them raw and he's afraid I'll make them sick. They haven't thrown up yet so I think we're good. Well, the girls think it's good too! :biggrin: 

Casey is having some issues. She's been having issues with her coat, stanky skin, crusties and nasty ears. The vet says she has a flea allergy but the girl doesn't have a flea on her. I just don't believe him. She also has seizures but hasn't had one in awhile. <crossing fingers she doesn't either> 

I am hoping that RAW will be her ticket to a much healthier coat and over all health. I'm tired of feeling desperate for her. It's so sad because she is such a good girl and deserves the best and if that is RAW and RMB's then darn it, I'll do what I have too for her and Ava! I just wish I would have done something sooner and maybe I'd still have my 9 yr old rotty I had to put down in March this year. I am haunted by the If Only's. :frown:

I'm getting rid of their junk kibble tomorrow! NO MORE will they eat that stuff! Thank you! Thank You! Thank You! for answering some questions I didn't even have to ask!


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## RawFedDogs

BGBY said:


> This is just what I was looking for! Thank you so much for the debate!
> 
> My girls are going on their 3rd day of RAW and they seem to like it! The first night, they had chicken wings and watching my youngest dog Ava handle it was quite comical. It took her awhile but she got it down with no problems. Casey, my older girl didn't quite like it but I'm not giving up. I will try again and maybe sear it as suggested.
> 
> I will be harvesting their venison this hunting season. I have about 40lbs in my freezer that the neighbor said I could have so the girls will be having venison for breakfast tomorrow. They also have whole squirrels at my dad's that I have to pick up. I put in request for the innards of my immediate family's harvest this year too. Every lil bit counts!


Hey and welcome to the board. You may be taking things a little fast. Switching to a raw diet is a process and if you take short cuts, you are courting disaster in the form of digestive upset. Read my web page listed in my sig for my recommendations for beginning raw feeding a dog. 

What kind of dogs do you have. Unless you have small toy breeds, chicken wings are much too small. I feed chicken wings and drumsticks to my cats. My dogs eat much larger pieces.


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## whiteleo

I'm in on the grass eating debate, I'm with RFD on this one.:biggrin: My dogs both like to graze like cows from time to time, very seldom do they re-puk it up. But always, always I find cords of the grass in their teeny tiny poops. Maybe you can't actually see the grass because you do feed a kibble diet! and boy I've seen some of the sizes of those poops from other dogs in my neighborhood.


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## BGBY

RawFedDogs said:


> Hey and welcome to the board. You may be taking things a little fast. Switching to a raw diet is a process and if you take short cuts, you are courting disaster in the form of digestive upset. Read my web page listed in my sig for my recommendations for beginning raw feeding a dog.
> 
> What kind of dogs do you have. Unless you have small toy breeds, chicken wings are much too small. I feed chicken wings and drumsticks to my cats. My dogs eat much larger pieces.


That's good to know for a newbie like myself! The last thing I want to do is hurt them!  I have whole chicken in the freezer... I'll get it out instead and get more. 

Casey is a 50lbs lab mix and Ava is a 45lb boxer at the moment. So I'll start with chicken backs and turkey necks. Your link is informative. I'll be reading over it and the other links for the next couple days until I read it all! I'll probably read it twice or more since the girls are so important to me. :wink: 

Ava only had 1 chicken wing so I hope she'll be okay with one mistake thus far. :redface: It took her awhile to eat it and seemed to crunch it up pretty good. But yeah, don't wanna hurt them. 

I was up way past my bedtime last night to post. I'll be spending a good bit of time here and other places reading up on RAW and RMB's. Thanks RFD.


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## RawFedDogs

BGBY said:


> Ava only had 1 chicken wing so I hope she'll be okay with one mistake thus far. :redface: It took her awhile to eat it and seemed to crunch it up pretty good. But yeah, don't wanna hurt them.


It didn't hurt her and usually won't but it's a possiblity. They can easily swallow those things whole. Good luck and enjoy the raw feeding. You will enjoy it just as much as they do. :smile: If you have any questions (and you will), don't hesitate to ask.


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## BGBY

Oh, I will. Ava chewed and chewed and chewed on that chicken wing. I have a whole chicken out to thaw for dinner tonight. I may sear Casey's because she just looked at it the other day. 

Hubby is not on board though. He's afraid I'll make them sick. I promised him if they don't thrive, I'll stop but I don't think they'll starve to death! I won't let that happen and if I need help, I'll definately ask! 

I wanted to thank you personally for the heads up not to rush in. I've enjoyed reading this thread. I gotta run though, working early today! I am looking forward to coming back and reading up! I saved those links to my FAVs too so they are just a click away!


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## Guest

RawFedDogs said:


> It is not recommended by experienced knowledgable raw feeders. The reason is because the dog's digestive system is designed to digest and get the undigestable parts of the food out of the system quickly before bacteria builds up in the intestinal tract and causes the dog to get sick. Raw meat, bones, and organs usually are digested and out of the body in just a very few hours. The meat is out of the body before a large growth of bacteria can build up and the meat rot.
> 
> Kibble digests very slowly. When it is in the digestive tract, it will hold up any meat that happens to come in behind it and leave the rotting meat in the intestines for 12 hours or so. This is not good for the dog.
> 
> Like I said in my earlier post, If you are giving a small amount of meat such as a treat, it's not really a big deal but if you are feeding substantial amounts of meat, it can cause serious problems.



She uses the "Bravo" stuff as a topper. So the dog eats the Bravo first before he even gets to the kibble. So the Bravo will pass through the dog's body first before any kibble does. Is this method of feeding not recommended? The dog is 12 years old now and has been fed like this for a long time. The dog is very healthy. The Bravo raw diet isn't an ideal raw diet but it is sure better than feeding just crappy kibble.


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## RawFedDogs

LabbieMama said:


> She uses the "Bravo" stuff as a topper. So the dog eats the Bravo first before he even gets to the kibble.


If it were me and I was feeding both Bravo and kibble, I would feed kibble one meal and Bravo the next just to be on the safe side.



> So the Bravo will pass through the dog's body first before any kibble does.


So far.



> Is this method of feeding not recommended?


I wouldn't feed like that. With that method, kibble and Bravo get mixed up in the stomach before entering the small intestine. This still can cause the raw meat to sit in the intestine long enough for a bacteria build up.



> The dog is 12 years old now and has been fed like this for a long time. The dog is very healthy.


Cool. That doesn't mean there won't be a problem tomorrow. Even if there is a problem, it probably won't be serious. Maybe some diarrhea for several days because of bacteria build up in the intestines. But why look for trouble when you can easily avoid it.



> The Bravo raw diet isn't an ideal raw diet but it is sure better than feeding just crappy kibble.


Anything is better than crappy kibble. The less of that stuff fed, the better. I would prefer she feed Bravo exclusively instead of what she's doing but that can get real expensive.


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## rannmiller

BGBY said:


> Oh, I will. Ava chewed and chewed and chewed on that chicken wing. I have a whole chicken out to thaw for dinner tonight. I may sear Casey's because she just looked at it the other day.


Don't sear Casey's meat just yet, give her a couple days to figure it out since this is completely different from anything she's ever had before. Some dogs don't "get it" as quickly as others do, but when she gets hungry enough, she'll figure it out. What you do is just offer her the exact same thing again at her next feeding. Just hand it to her and give her 15 - 20 minutes to eat it. Don't try to cajole her into eating, just leave her to it. If she doesn't eat it in the allotted time, put it back in the fridge and don't give her any snacks or other food until the next meal, then pull the exact same piece of meat out again and try again. This may take a few days, but eventually she'll get hungry enough to eat and you won't have created a picky dog :smile:


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## rannmiller

Unosmom said:


> thats hardly the same thing, I dont know if you ever tasted wheatgrass, its pretty disgusting, but its quite beneficial.


Oh I've tasted wheatgrass and I agree with you, but my dogs love cat poop, roadkill, and raw meat, bones, and organs, all of which I don't enjoy either. Dogs also have only 1/6 the amount of tastebuds that humans have, so usually they're less picky about things all around.


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## Unosmom

My point being is that there are alternate nutrient sources, I dont argue with the fact that the diet should be meat based, but supplemental feeding provides variety, natural probiotics, antioxidants to the diet, its called evolution, sometimes you dont have to be afraid of embracing it.


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## RawFedDogs

Evolution takes place over much longer timeframes than the 10,000 or so years dogs have been hanging around humans. Dogs today have exactly the same digestive system they had 100,000 years ago. It hasn't evolved. 

You are right about meat based stuff but you can't seem to grasp the concept that dogs cannot extract nutrients from plants in their natural state. If you have to alter plants to make something the dog can digest (puree, smush, crush, cook, etc.), that tells me that dogs don't need it. 

A healthy raw fed dog has no need for probiotics. His body will create what it needs. They can get antioxidants in their diet. Variety comes from feeding parts from different animals.


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## Unosmom

but I dont see how you can compare any of the things I add to junk food, we all know that junk foods cause health problems, high blood pressure, obesity, high cholesterol, etc. 
I've been feeding these things for 4 years now ( longer with cats, one of my cats is 16) with absolutely zero negative sideeffects, in fact when Uno had a bout of yeast infection due to a plant contact allergy, a probiotic was reccomended, hence the yogurt, its a beneficial supplement to increase healthy bacteria in the gut which helps to beat the yeast. If dogs were capable of understanding the benefits of plants or alternate sources of food, they would take advantage of it, but they dont. I'm not going to convert my dog to veganism anytime soon, but supplemental feeding does not hurt them, and it can be beneficial. If theres any contradicting evidence out there that points how anything I feed is directly harming my dog, I'd like to see it. So far I've only had positive results and no digestive issues from this so called " indegestible" food.


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## RawFedDogs

Unosmom said:


> but I dont see how you can compare any of the things I add to junk food, we all know that junk foods cause health problems, high blood pressure, obesity, high cholesterol, etc.


Ok, if it makes you feel better I will call them useless foods. 



> I've been feeding these things for 4 years now ( longer with cats, one of my cats is 16) with absolutely zero negative sideeffects, in fact when Uno had a bout of yeast infection due to a plant contact allergy, a probiotic was reccomended, hence the yogurt, its a beneficial supplement to increase healthy bacteria in the gut which helps to beat the yeast.


Probiotics are good in certain circumstances, mainly when a dog has been given antibiotics. A healthy dog is perfectly capable of maintaining the proper amount of bacteria in the gut to properly digest proper food. Used as a supplement in a healthy dog is an act of futility. It has no effect. If the dog has the proper amount of bacteria, adding more does no good.



> If dogs were capable of understanding the benefits of plants or alternate sources of food, they would take advantage of it, but they dont.


If they were capable of digesting them, you might be right. But supplementing anything which the dog already has a sufficient supply of accomplishes nothing. Dogs produce their own Vit C and need none in their diet. Giving them Vit C only produces expensive pee.



> I'm not going to convert my dog to veganism anytime soon, but supplemental feeding does not hurt them, and it can be beneficial.


*MAY* be beneficial. It has never been shown that any of the things you mentioned are beneficial to dogs.



> If theres any contradicting evidence out there that points how anything I feed is directly harming my dog, I'd like to see it. So far I've only had positive results and no digestive issues from this so called " indegestible" food.


As far as I know, none of the stuff you are giving is harming your dog with the possible exception of Vit C. There is a theory that if you supplement Vit C, the dog will stop producing it and in time will loose the ablility to produce it. There is no evidence that any of the things you give are beneficial. 

Actually, believe it or not, it has never been proven that humans derive any benefit from taking vitamin pills. It hasn't been proven that the human body absorbs any of the vitamins in the pills. It has never been proven that people who take vitamins are any healthier than people who never do.


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## Unosmom

I never said anything about giving vitamin C, not sure where you got it. 



> Probiotics are dietary supplements of live microorganisms thought to be healthy for the host organism. According to the currently adopted definition by FAO/WHO, probiotics are: "Live microorganisms which when administered in adequate amounts confer a health benefit on the host".[1] Lactic acid bacteria (LAB) and bifidobacteria are the most common types of microbes used as probiotics; but also certain yeasts and bacilli are available.
> 
> At first, probiotics were thought to beneficially affect the host by improving its intestinal microbial balance, thus inhibiting pathogens and toxin producing bacteria. Today specific health effects are being investigated and documented including alleviation of chronic intestinal inflammatory diseases [2], prevention and treatment of pathogen-induced diarrhea [3], urogenital infections [4], and atopic diseases[5].


Uno has allergies, the yogurt in combination of quercetin and bromelain reduces inflamation in the body.
I add things like sardines and salmon as toppers, its a good source of omega 3's ( he wont touch raw fish), I already mentioned pulped vegetables, depending on the type, such as carrot pulp, its a great source of beta carotene which is converted by dogs metabolism and helps to maintain healthy eyesight, skin and coat. 

So yeah, I'll take my chances and "maybe" is good enough for me.


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## RawFedDogs

Unosmom said:


> I never said anything about giving vitamin C, not sure where you got it.


I don't know either. I thought I read it in one of your posts but can't find it now.



> Uno has allergies, the yogurt in combination of quercetin and bromelain reduces inflamation in the body.


If you are giving supplements because of known health problems, I have no problem with that. I don't see allergies as a reason to feed yogurt. Bromelain has many side effects and I would use it with caution. Do you feed these supplements all the time or just when there is an allergic flare up?



> I add things like sardines and salmon as toppers, its a good source of omega 3's ( he wont touch raw fish), I already mentioned pulped vegetables, depending on the type, such as carrot pulp, its a great source of beta carotene which is converted by dogs metabolism and helps to maintain healthy eyesight, skin and coat.


Sardines adn salmon are great and as you said a good source of O3's. The veggies IMO are a total waste of time and money. Salmon and sardines will maintain a healthy skin and coat, no need for the veggies.



> So yeah, I'll take my chances and "maybe" is good enough for me.


Not for me. I don't feed myself or my dogs anything because of a "maybe" ... particularly if they don't have a problem. My dogs haven't eaten a fruit or veggie in 7 years.


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## MandyPug

The most common excuses i hear are...

"I have a new baby in the house."

"My child has X learning disorder and would get into the dog's food"

"I have carpets."

"I'm a vegetarian."

All crap excuses.


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## Unosmom

ok, difference of opinion, case closed. 

I only give him the supplements during flareups, he seems to be allergic to multiple plants, though its hard to pinpoint which ones since he likes to run off leash when we go on hikes and such, heres what I use

Dog Healthy Skin: Maximum Healthy Skin Kit by Drs. Foster & Smith

these are the ingridients per tablet, so he gets like 2-3, depending on severity.

Vitamin C (from calcium ascorbate) 180.0 mg 
Quercetin 150.0 mg 
Calcium (from calcium ascorbate) 47.8 mg 
Grape seed extract 1:1 40.0 mg 
Bromelain 30.0 mg 
Biotin 10.0 mg 
Lactobacillus casei 400 millon CFU/g


----------



## rannmiller

Unosmom said:


> on a light note heres a cute video I came across of wolves ( possibly coyotes eating rosehips, I used to eat them myself, they arent very sweet, but great source of antioxidants and rich in vitamin C)
> 
> YouTube - Wolves eating berries!


Just to solve the mystery, here's where you guys heard Unosmom say something about vitamin C.


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## RawFedDogs

rannmiller said:


> Just to solve the mystery, here's where you guys heard Unosmom say something about vitamin C.


Hehe, I KNEW I had seen it somewhere. THANKS!! :smile:


----------



## Lynn In Tenn

*Ignorance.* Not stupidity, as I am not stupid.


----------



## Shamrockmommy

I guess I will just add my thoughts on (once again) why I don't feed my dogs raw (anymore). I just tried for about 2 months to go raw. I have attempted many times over the years actually. I"ve fasted, changed meat types, digestive enzymes, probiotics, veggies, no veggies, grains, no grains and still, my dogs fight diarrhea and mucousy poop. Their need to poop while on raw can be URGENT. They mess in their crates. 

They are telling me something is not right for them. So lightly cooked it is. Works for us. Their bloodwork is done annually and all 3 dogs were in normal ranges. No more diarrhea or mucousy poop. The dogs don't have tummy aches either. (there was lots of gas, and playbow stretching with gurgly tummy noises, which are all gone on cooked).

Currently I'm feeding FreshPet Select. They love it. Coats are wonderful, weights are great, poops are small and very little odor. 

You can believe something with all your heart but sometimes it's not the right thing for certain dogs. I have nothing against other dogs eating raw when it works for them.


----------



## claybuster

rannmiller said:


> Hasn't Claybuster been saying that fruits and vegetables actually do release toxins into a carnivore's system that slowly poisons them over time? Or am I just misremembering? Of course that could just be Abady propaganda as well.
> 
> Either way, my dog's don't get any of that. Just meat, bones, organs, tripe, and eggs for the most part. The worst they get is a dog biscuit or a bit of pizza crust as a treat every now and then (and by that I mean only when my boyfriend sneaks it to them before I can stop him).


Being that you mentioned it, yes you are correct, certain types of plant matter deliver sub-lethal does of poison over time and not good for the internal organs. They can cause swelling and some plant matter can lead to sterility in dogs.


----------



## claybuster

RawFedDogs said:


> Mushrooms are a fungus. I have never seen anything authoratative about dogs eating mushrooms. Grasshoppers and earthworms are animals and would make good food for a wolf/dog although I doubt wild wolves would eat any unless near starvation. *Flowers* and yogurt I seriously doubt are just not part of a wild wolf's diet.


And when a user comes along that can't feed Raw and looking for recommendations as to what kibble, some Raw feeders will suggest try something like Orijen with the Marigold Flowers and Dandelions.


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## RawFedDogs

Shamrockmommy said:


> You can believe something with all your heart but sometimes it's not the right thing for certain dogs. I have nothing against other dogs eating raw when it works for them.


There is no dog that a raw diet of meat, bones, and organs is not right for or will work for them. All dogs have the same digestive system and need the same food. This would be like saying that all cows shouldn't eat grass. There may be some dogs that the diet may need a little tweeking.


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## RawFedDogs

claybuster said:


> And when a user comes along that can't feed Raw and looking for recommendations as to what kibble, some Raw feeders will suggest try something like Orijen with the Marigold Flowers and Dandelions.


I don't know what this has to do with the price of eggs in China. My statement said, "Flowers and yogurt I seriously doubt are just not part of a wild wolf's diet." My statement has absolutely nothing to do with whatever incredients are in whatever kibbles. You are really grasping for straws now, CB. :smile:


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## tom e

RawFedDogs said:


> The problem is that vets have to take only one nutrition course the whole time they are in vet school and it is a course about animal nutrition. Thats all animals, cows, horses, cats, pigs, goats, AND DOGS. Unfortunately, vets have no more nutritional training than the average person on the street. Your vet is the last person you want to consult with about feeding your dog. All he will do is look at some promotional material from one or more dog food companies.


There's an old saying (I think Mark Twain? NOPE! It was Upton Sinclair) I'll paraphrase here- 

'It's hard to get a man to understand something when his salary depends on his not understanding it.'

I think that relates to anyone out there doing studies on dog nutrition and lots of vets as well. If a vet sells any kind of dog food, I don't think I can view them as unaffiliated with the industry that needs us to believe in it's product. 
If we had some kind of independent organization evaluating their claims like we do for human food, I'd have a little more faith in their claims.


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## SerenityFL

rannmiller said:


> I'm just curious (and certainly not trying to attack anyone), why don't some people feed raw?
> 
> I see a lot of people say, "I'm just not ready to do it." or "I just don't want to." So I'm just wondering what some of those reasons are. Why are some people not ready to and not sure they ever will be (come on this is feeding your dog, not having a baby).


Since this thread has been revived, I'd like to answer this question.

First, because raw is not proven, scientifically, meaning, no studies. We have to take the word of those who have done it for years and sometimes, that is hard to do when you don't know the people.

Second, it is more expensive than kibble. 

Third, often times, people have no idea what is in their pet's food and most just trust that their vet wouldn't lead them astray or that the pet food industry wouldn't dare include ear tags in the mess they mash together and cook for our pets. Who would do such a thing!

Fourth, scare tactics can work. Your dog will choke to death on a chicken bone, your dog will die of e-coli, salmonella, bacteria, parasites, worms, etc. You will kill your dog if you feed it raw. Dogs are not wolves. Blah, blah. We've all heard those arguments and many people just believe those arguments. Even ones who research can have a hard time making the leap. It sure wasn't easy for me the very first time I fed my dogs a raw chicken bone. I sat right next to their crates and watched, with an eagle eye, for any problems. When it comes time to feed raw fish, I'll do the same. We get told something for so long, even though we read that it's not true, it can be difficult to undo all those years of believing a certain way.

Fifth, some of us have a hard time feeding animal parts. I'm not a vegetarian but I do have a hard time eating a lot of different types of meat simply because I know how some of them are raised, shipped and slaughtered. The first time I caught myself stuck behind a semi carrying live chickens, I didn't eat chicken for a year after that. As it is, I'll eat cow and drink cow milk. I feel terribly guilty for killing an animal to eat it but the taste wins every time. It's an ongoing conflict. We need protein, I love the taste of cow...but, I'm sorry cow. 

There are animals that I will never be able to bring myself to feed my dogs. I cannot feed them anything I've ever had as a pet. This includes rats, mice, birds, (not chicken or turkey although I've met a few really cool chickens in my life and this is not easy for me), guinea pigs, rabbits, etc. I can't do it.

I'm in conflict right now with deer/venison. I do not like hunting. A co-worker of mine likes hunting and talks about killing things all the time. He is going on a hunting trip in November to kill deer. After a discussion, I realized that most of that deer is not used. On the one hand, I don't want to be a party to killing the deer but on the other hand I think, if it's just going to waste, that is worse. At least use all or most of the deer. If he won't eat it, my dogs will. For me, it's not even about the "score" of getting free meat, it's about not wanting to waste a life like that.

I know people won't agree with me and that's fine. This is how it is for me. I read a lot about raw feeding and while I'm doing good for my animals, I'm contributing to the slaughter of others. For some people, this is not a problem. For others, such as myself, this isn't easy.

What makes it different, since I know there is meat in kibble, is that with kibble, it was easier to fool myself. Not so easy when you're looking at animal parts or a whole animal and feeding it to your pets. 

But, I'm working on that and my dogs will get raw because I believe dogs are carnivores and should be fed a diet suited to a carnivore whether I have personal issues with it, or not. That is what I finally told myself and then made the switch. That did not happen overnight...there was a point where I, "wasn't ready".


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## CorgiPaws

SerenityFL said:


> First, because raw is not proven, scientifically, meaning, no studies.


You're right. There is no pet food company comparing how dogs do being fed "as directed" and 100 times the suggested amount of the same food, and claiming that when fed "as directed" it extended dog's lifespan. There is no hot shot company putting millions into entirely ridiculous "trials" during which all that has to happen, is dogs staying alive for 6 months, without wasting away. 
There is nature, though, which has proven itself for millions of years? That, in my book, will hold more water than some Hills study ever will. Hills Science Diet: because sawdust cures any ailment.





SerenityFL said:


> Second, it is more expensive than kibble.


Big. Fat. Wrong.
To feed my girls EVO, I'd be spending $140/month.
To feed them Taste of the WIld, I'd be spending $100/month
To feed them PMR, I am spending roughly $80-$90/month, depending on sales.



SerenityFL said:


> Third, often times, people have no idea what is in their pet's food and most just trust that their vet wouldn't lead them astray or that the pet food industry wouldn't dare include ear tags in the mess they mash together and cook for our pets. Who would do such a thing!


This is probably why MOST people feed crappy food. The commercials said so, and so did their vet!
I know that's why I fed pedigree for SO long. That's what the vet said to feed. I mean, she's the vet, she must know better than me, right?
I think most people are entirely unaware of the lack of regulation with pet foods, and assume that if it's on the shelves, it must be OK.



SerenityFL said:


> I sat right next to their crates and watched, with an eagle eye, for any problems. When it comes time to feed raw fish, I'll do the same.


Haha! I'm glad I'm not the only one! I watched video after video on youtube, and still, the first time I gave Griss a chicken thigh, despite being excited to go raw, there, in the back of my mind, I was freaking out. IF i was wrong. IF he choked. IF anything went wrong. blah blah blha. A year later, I can't believe how silly I was!



SerenityFL said:


> I know people won't agree with me and that's fine. This is how it is for me. I read a lot about raw feeding and while I'm doing good for my animals, I'm contributing to the slaughter of others. For some people, this is not a problem. For others, such as myself, this isn't easy.


I had a somewhat difficult time with this, myself. 
One thing I kept in mind: circle of life. Dogs (and other carnivores) were made and designed to eat other animals. By eating the animal, they are helping that animal fulfill their purpose here. That, and not feeding them that way, is an injustice to the dog, and then you're on a whole other moral battle. 
Admittedly, I went from feeling bad, to feeding live rabbit (yes. Live. I said it. AND, I can almost guarantee that the way Champ kills his rabbit is FAR more humane than the farmed rabbit people buy in stores are killed. Kill me.) in little over 6 months time, and now I don't think twice. If it's meat, it's theirs. Period. I would have a very tough time with killing a rabbit for my own consumption... but for the dogs? not at all.


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## SerenityFL

CorgiPaws said:


> Big. Fat. Wrong.
> To feed my girls EVO, I'd be spending $140/month.
> To feed them Taste of the WIld, I'd be spending $100/month
> To feed them PMR, I am spending roughly $80-$90/month, depending on sales.


You are, of course, assuming that everyone fed these types of food. It is more expensive than that $15-20, twenty pound bag of dog food that would feed my dogs for over a month. For me, this is far more expensive. Considering how much money these pet food manufacturers make off of that crap put out on the store aisles, I'd say I'm not the only one who actually believed that as long as the first ingredient or, better yet, the first two ingredients were meat or meat by product, I was doing something good.


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## jackied

Firstly, cleanliness/ease of handling for a dog that is hand fed, and the food is used for training treats.

Secondly, I am _not_ convinced that feeding raw bones is sufficiently safe. I have a friend who is an ex-vet (so no products to sell or professional insurance to worry about) and she lectures me about all the bits of bone she's removed from dogs! 

By the way, my actual vet admits that commercial cat food is problematic, but thinks that commercial dog food is better. So he's not completely brainwashed. (I live in the UK and I don't know how nutrition is taught in vet schools here. )

More minor concerns are that I'd have to buy a second freezer and fit it in somewhere, and that convincing other family members that it is a good idea would be difficult. I don't think the boarding kennels would want to feed raw, either.

I am considering, however, feeding a mixed diet of kibble and raw minced food and see how that suits him. I know other people that do this and find their dogs do well on it.


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## cprcheetah

jackied said:


> Firstly, cleanliness/ease of handling for a dog that is hand fed, and the food is used for training treats.
> 
> Secondly, I am _not_ convinced that feeding raw bones is sufficiently safe. I have a friend who is an ex-vet (so no products to sell or professional insurance to worry about) and she lectures me about all the bits of bone she's removed from dogs!
> 
> By the way, my actual vet admits that commercial cat food is problematic, but thinks that commercial dog food is better. So he's not completely brainwashed. (I live in the UK and I don't know how nutrition is taught in vet schools here. )
> 
> More minor concerns are that I'd have to buy a second freezer and fit it in somewhere, and that convincing other family members that it is a good idea would be difficult. I don't think the boarding kennels would want to feed raw, either.
> 
> I am considering, however, feeding a mixed diet of kibble and raw minced food and see how that suits him. I know other people that do this and find their dogs do well on it.


Actually my dad who's been a vet for 40 years has NEVER removed a raw uncooked bone from a dog, the cooked bones are the ones that cause the problems not the uncooked. I am feeding 4 dogs and haven't bought a 2nd freezer yet...do I want one, heck yeah then I could stock up more when sales hit, but I'm not going to get one just yet.


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## CorgiPaws

jackied said:


> Secondly, I am _not_ convinced that feeding raw bones is sufficiently safe. I have a friend who is an ex-vet (so no products to sell or professional insurance to worry about) and she lectures me about all the bits of bone she's removed from dogs!


Perhaps no current incentive, but years of brainwashing from the big companies, especially the ones that wrote her vet school book.


By the way, I BET, if a doctor were to open me up right now, they'd find scrambled eggs, a tortilla, and some cheese. I bet that means scrambled eggs are super dangerous, right? 
My point is, people rush to the vet worried that their dog just swallowed a bone, of COURSE a vet will remove the bone from the stomach. Heck, that's gotta be what, $1000 for them?


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