# Just had a dog fight....



## Muttkip

Beau and Takoda got into a pretty intense fight about 20 or so minutes ago. I think a treat may have fell in the dog kennel while I had my back turned to pick up a leash....next thing I know BAM! Beau and Takoda are going at it!! Yup, my 19 pound Beagle tried to take on my 40 pound Lab/Mountain Cur mix. I'm hoping they'll still get along after this, but I'm going to give them a few days apart from each other to cool off. And no I did not get bit, thanks to what I learned on here for breaking up dog fights, I grabbed Takoda by the collar and choked her out to get her to let go of Beau's head and then grabbed Beau's collar to choke him out to get him let go of Takoda's leg....which he WOULD NOT DO!!! Whoever said Beagles aren't vicious have never seen this dog. He would not let go for the life of him. When he finally did, I carried him out of the pen and began the process of cleaning up the blood. No major puncture holes or scrapes, mostly just drool and a few minor scrapes and holes. 

And yes, I broke this fight up by myself with no one's help. Why I didn't have my break stick or a leash....I didn't have time to grab them, so I did the next best thing and I didn't panic.

And no I did not post this to brag about my dog fight, just putting up so other people can see any breed of dog can fight.

Both dogs are fine, and no vet trips will be needed. Let this be a LESSON to anyone with a dog, this two dogs are NOT even APBT. They are a Beagle and Lab mutt and they still go into a fight. Any dog of any breed can and will fight!!


----------



## xellil

I'm so sorry. No matter the breed, or the size, a dogfight is extremely scary - I'm glad you didn't panic.

I've been witness quite a few dog fights. Even if you can't see them, the sound is terrifying. The last one was when a rottweiler attacked my dog while my husband was walking him. I could go the rest of my life without witnessing another one.


----------



## malluver1005

Yes, any dog/breed will fight. Thank goodness Aspen has never gotten into a serious fight. Only time he kinda got into one was when a loose rottie ran after us when we were on our walks. That was the first time I saw Aspen defend himself and man did it scare me! I always thought I had a sissy dog. The rottie did submit and no one got hurt. I really hope it never happens again because 115 lbs. of Aspen sounds incredibly vicious...


----------



## hmbutler

malluver1005 said:


> That was the first time I saw Aspen defend himself and man did it scare me!


My bet is Aspen wasn't so much defending himself, but was defending you

Duke is not, by any stretch of the imagination, a vicious dog at all. He plays rough, but when dogs growl at him while they're playing (telling him they're getting annoyed), he usually backs off or drops to the ground like a little sissy lol. But I'll always remember walking him as a pup and a man was walking from his ute across the road we were walking on to a building site, carrying a big sheet of metal. When Duke saw the guy coming in our direction, he backed up into my legs, so I couldn't walk any further, and all his fur stood up and he growled. I couldn't believe it - at this stage he'd never even barked at another dog (an issue we now have when walking, which will hopefully be fixed with his new obedience classes). But when I pet him and said it was ok, he eased up a bit. But I was proud of my little fella for trying to protect me :biggrin:

Back on topic, Muttkip, fingers crossed that Beau and Takoda go back to normal real soon for you and get along fine still


----------



## xellil

One thing I am pretty sure of - the dogs will forget it long before you do!


----------



## minnieme

Muttkip said:


> ... thanks to what I learned on here for breaking up dog fights, I grabbed Takoda by the collar and choked her out to get her to let go of Beau's head and then grabbed Beau's collar to choke him out to get him let go of Takoda's leg....which he WOULD NOT DO!!!


What?? Choking them "out"... ? I have never heard of this before in relation to breaking up a dog fight. Are we thinking of the same thing? Grabbing someone's neck in the crook of your arm and squeezing so they asphyxiate?


----------



## RCTRIPLEFRESH5

minnieme said:


> What?? Choking them "out"... ? I have never heard of this before in relation to breaking up a dog fight. Are we thinking of the same thing? Grabbing someone's neck in the crook of your arm and squeezing so they asphyxiate?


he grabbed their collars.


----------



## minnieme

RCTRIPLEFRESH5 said:


> he grabbed their collars.


I would not grab my dog's collar in a dog fight...... the only one she's ever been in (well, she was being more attacked than everything), I clapped, shouted, then slammed a water bowl on the ground. That same dog that went after Minnie went after another friend's dog.... that friend tried to grab hers by the collar and she got a nasty puncture wound to the hand.

Just saying, be careful around those chompers! I'm glad you didn't get hurt, Muttkip and that they are all okay. I bet they'll be back on good terms before you know it!


----------



## hmbutler

minnieme said:


> that friend tried to grab hers by the collar and she got a nasty puncture wound to the hand.


A friend of mine had two small dogs when I was younger (I can't even remember what they were now) and they would sometimes get into a scuffle. If anything, the owners would try push a broom between them, but they weren't going to touch these little dogs when fighting. Then one day they started fighting when the family had friends over, and a little girl tried to pat them while they were fighting - she got bitten on the hand, and the dog that bit her had to be put down...

I think if Duke was in a fight, I'd freak out for starters, but if it was in my yard, I'd try using the hose on them. Failing that, a broom. Failing that, I'd just flip out and panic no doubt lol. Fingers crossed I never have to witness him in a fight, I don't think I could handle it!


----------



## Caty M

Yes do you mean you actually choked your dog? I'm pretty sure THAT'S never been recommended on here.


----------



## xellil

If I had a choice between choking a dog until they quit fighting, or watching them rip each other apart, i would be choking.

I've never been able to stop a dogfight by pulling on a collar - dogs are awfully strong. but if i could have stopped them by choking i would have done it in a heartbeat.

The next-to-last dogfight I witnessed ended up with a dog pumping blood from his jugular in tune to his heartbeat. Choking? Mild by comparison.


----------



## RCTRIPLEFRESH5

Caty M said:


> Yes do you mean you actually choked your dog? I'm pretty sure THAT'S never been recommended on here.


so what's the reccomended protocol for dog fights here??
id have no problem choking dogs like xell says...but obviously a more humane approach would be much more preferred.


----------



## xellil

I've witnessed alot of dominance type dogfights, but I've only witnessed one honest to God fight to the death, and my dog was on the losing end of it. 

There are no rules - I pried jaws, choked, whacked with a shovel, raised hind legs, squirted water and probably other things I can't remember. Nothing worked except the shovel, pounded against the dog's skull over and over again. He had my dog by the neck and was shaking and grinding, aiming to kill. I'm not ashamed of it, either. I ended up with 37 stitches and my dog ended up with something like 98 stitches. 

and by the way, the dog attacking my dog was a yellow lab - turned out to be the sweetest dog in the world. My brother adopted him. Thanks goodness he had a thick skull.

It's the main reason I never go anywhere with my dogs without a stun gun.


----------



## CorgiPaws

I've broken up dog fights more than a handful of times. Sometimes grabbing their back legs works, sometimes loud noises work, sometimes you have to do more. I've pulled dogs apart by their collars, resorted to brute force, and when Annie and I were attacked unexpectedly on a walk, I kicked with all my might.

I do NOT advocate hitting dogs for training purposes, or hurting them in any way, but when a REAL dog fight breaks out... and I'm not talking scuffles like most people see.... but real fights, where shouting does NOTHING... you have two choices: don't get too physically involved because you're almost guaranteed to get bit, or do whatever it takes to stop it.


----------



## nikkiluvsu15

Wait - aren't break sticks only supposed to be used for APBT's (maybe AmStaff's and Staffy's too - I'm not sure, I've only seen it for APBT's)? 

Anyways, glad they wasn't any major damage done!


----------



## minnieme

xellil said:


> I've witnessed alot of dominance type dogfights, but I've only witnessed one honest to God fight to the death, and my dog was on the losing end of it.


That sounds TERRIFYING, xellil. O_O 

I agree that when a real fight breaks out, I would do anything I could. I just didn't know what "choking out" meant in this context.


----------



## Caty M

nikkiluvsu15 said:


> Wait - aren't break sticks only supposed to be used for APBT's (maybe AmStaff's and Staffy's too - I'm not sure, I've only seen it for APBT's)?
> 
> Anyways, glad they wasn't any major damage done!


Why would it be different for different breeds? A dog fight is a dog fight.


----------



## Scarlett_O'

Caty M said:


> Why would it be different for different breeds? A dog fight is a dog fight.


I think it is less of the breed(ie. I dont think Nikkiluvsu15 was SAYING to use it for bully breeds)more of the "training style" for each breed:wink: :tsk:


----------



## xellil

All fights scare me but that one was awful - and he became afraid after that.

That same dog was attacked by a dog that came through a fence as he and my husband walked by when he was 14. And this dog always tried to get away - he never wanted to fight!

i agree with Linsey. When a life is on the line, all bets are off. But really, it's very rare for dogs to fight to kill. When we lived with a bunch of male dogs, fights weren't common but they did happen, and were usually short or easily stopped. i had a very testy malamute but no one ever challenged him.


----------



## catahoulamom

Caty M said:


> Why would it be different for different breeds? A dog fight is a dog fight.


This was taken from PBRC.net 



> Attempting to use a break stick on other breeds could result in serious injury to the person using the stick. Since other breeds will unpredictably snap and bite instead of getting a grip, you are far more likely to be bitten. You also should not attempt to use a break stick with other terriers. While all terriers grab and hold, pit bulls are far less likely to redirect their bite on an intervening human than, say, a Jack Russell Terrier. For the same reason, you also need to be very careful when separating your pit bull from another breed. Your pit bull will probably not bite you, but you might get bitten by the other dog.


I don't know how much truth there is in that statement (I have had to break up many fights before [not in my household thank goodness] and have been bitten by dogs that I never thought would bite me, and not bitten by dogs who I were CONVINCED would bite me). I can say that when my dogs have gotten into a scuffle, it has never been a big deal. My catahoula went after my pit once (and then ran like a weenie), and my pit turned to chase him down, but a quick loud vocal correction from myself stopped him in his tracks. The dogs were fine immediately after. I'm lucky to have dogs I can trust (although as an owner of two powerful breeds I never take that for granted!) 

To the OP - sorry you had to deal with that. It sucks. Glad nobody got too badly hurt.


----------



## nikkiluvsu15

Caty M said:


> Why would it be different for different breeds? A dog fight is a dog fight.


I was referring to just the break stick and what I've read here. I've also read it in many other places and have heard it from APBT's owners.

Pit Bull Rescue Central


----------



## Muttkip

Yes I ACTUALLY choked them out. I grabbed them both by the collars and twisted til they both let go. It's something I learned from the APBT people I hang out with, and I have a break stick for things like this. I tried the kicking and the hitting, it didn't cut it. So instead of two BADLY injured dogs, I cut off their airways for a few seconds and it worked. A broom, water, or anything was NOT going to break this up, when Beau fights...he fights to kill, he's a hunting dog and it's what he does and Takoda has Mountain Cur in her and there might even be some Pit Bull in the mix, so she wasn't backing down either. You gotta do, what you gotta do!


----------



## DaneMama

So....I totally should have kept my damn mouth shut. Not even 12 hours after boasting about the girls having a fight in over two years, they got into it. 

The day before yesterday I had a raw feeder acquaintance over to do some butchering. She of course brought her dog to hang out and play with the girls. We did introductions carefully but when we let Shiloh say hi to him, all she wanted to do was kick some a$$. There was something that just wasn't right about him and her getting along...not sure what. SO, we put Shiloh away, and kept Maveric with us in the garage/shop with us while we worked. No biggie. 

The next day, not even 12 hours after I opened my BIG FAT MOUTH about how peaceful things have been, Shiloh goes after Emmy. We were in the north west corner of their yard (I'm cleaning up trash/slash around the property-focused in my own little world), and Shiloh was being defensive about something, not sure what. I was able to break that little tiff up, so I didn't think much of it. BUT I should have put Shiloh inside. 

Not more than ten minutes later, Shiloh goes for Bailey...and Bailey is hell bent to NOT back down. Then of course Emmy and Akasha get into the mix as well, why the hell not?! So now I'm alone, with four dogs all going primarily after Shiloh, but going after each other...Shiloh on Bailey, Shiloh on Emmy, Akasha on Emmy, Akasha on Shiloh (Emmy and Akasha NEVER goes after Bailey and vice versa). Usually Shiloh is the one who does some major damage because she just has that fighting instinct- people worry about APBTs but seriously...wolves freaking bring it. Not only are their teeth 20% larger, but they just have instinct. But not this time. Shiloh is getting her a$$ handed to her by Bailey, Akasha and Emmy. 

So, I'm in the north west corner of the yard, screaming at the top of my lungs, trying to throw dogs off each other, trying to keep dogs from getting back into the fight. Meanwhile Jon is operating the noisy a$$ excavator on the other damn side of the yard...but somehow he's able to hear my blood curdling scream over the noise of the engine and comes running. Only he is able to really get Shiloh out of a fight. He doesn't choke her out, but just simply lifts her off the ground and once Shiloh is removed from the equation I can handle the rest (because the others just don't fight with each other without Shiloh there). 

The only dog that stays completely out of the mix is Zuri...she's the true pacifist. 

I'm shaking by the time Shiloh is exiled in the house. I check over everyone for damages, and Shiloh is the only one with a wound...nothing major. Luckily. It takes me HOURS to come down from it, and hours for me to feel comfortable introducing them back together. Of course the dogs were all cool by that time. 

Either way....I don't care who you are, what kind of dogs you have, what training you do everyday, etc, etc.....EVERYONE (maybe not 0.01% of people) will resort to WHATEVER it takes to break up a fight between their dogs. Would I kill a random dog that attacks with the intent to kill one of my own? Hell yes. Until you're in the position to break up a fight between your dogs, you cannot say for sure what you would do...just sayin'


----------



## cprcheetah

I have had some scary dog fights I have seen as well, and as Natalie said, sometimes you have to do whatever you have to do to break up a dog fight. I have had my own little Zoey attacked and had to pull a dog 3x her size off of her.


----------



## hmbutler

DaneMama said:


> Either way....I don't care who you are, what kind of dogs you have, what training you do everyday, etc, etc.....EVERYONE (maybe not 0.01% of people) will resort to WHATEVER it takes to break up a fight between their dogs. Would I kill a random dog that attacks with the intent to kill one of my own? Hell yes. Until you're in the position to break up a fight between your dogs, you cannot say for sure what you would do...just sayin'


I once stood between Duke and a neopolitan mastiff who came bounding down the street towards us on a walk. Thinking back, I think I may have even lifted Duke off the ground (this was when he was a pup, obviously, lol). Luckily the mastiff didn't attack, and it's owner came tearing around the corner chasing after him. But I kept thinking afterwards "geez that was a good way to get myself attacked" lol. But I don't think I could ever just let Duke be attacked and not do something, even if it was risking my own safety. If he were in a fight (as opposed to just being attacked), I'd probably be slightly less willing to jump right in, as I'd hope he could sort it out for himself. But if it was clearly a fight to the death (or at least serious injury) I'd have to intervene... I don't know how, and hopefully I never have to find out!


----------



## stajbs

Wow Natalie, what really bites in these situations is when two dogs start fighting and the others chime in it's a blooming free for all. With sibes it was always like the others wanted to play too, because of coure they do love to play fight. I've never had to choke them out thankfully, but I've grabbed o rings, on semi-slip collars, and had two dogs standing on their hind legs on their toenails to get my point across. Fortunately that has worked. My guys were not really fighters thankfully, and I have been very thankful to have 40-50 pound dogs,well one was close to 60, but I can manage to jack two up when needed. Glad no one was hurt too badly!!


----------



## committed2excellence

There is nothing humane about a dog fight. It's a grisly, terrible, shocking event.  I had the misfortune years ago of witnessing a scuffle in a park where one of the dogs had internal organs showing. Bottom line, there are situations where yelling, screaming, throwing things, beating the dogs,etc,etc do not work. Without a break stick or being able to choke out at least one of the dogs, a dog can die very quickly. I know the so called rules for breaking up a fight but those rules were made for ideal situations. Life isn't always ideal. The initial post was made by an individual who did what they needed to do to save their dogs. Yup, I'd choke a dog out to the point of the dog passing out for a few seconds if it meant saving a life. You can wake up from a couple seconds of oxygen not going to the brain. You can't wake up from dead.



RCTRIPLEFRESH5 said:


> so what's the reccomended protocol for dog fights here??
> id have no problem choking dogs like xell says...but obviously a more humane approach would be much more preferred.


----------



## Sprocket

My sisters PUG and my chihuahua have had a couple fights.

sprocket the Chi is in love with my sister and "claims" her when she comes over. The pug doesn't like that so they sometimes get in a scuffle. It looks and sounds so funny but we always shout or stomp on the ground to startle them to stop.


----------



## Oso

Julie said:


> This was taken from PBRC.net
> 
> 
> 
> I don't know how much truth there is in that statement (I have had to break up many fights before [not in my household thank goodness] and have been bitten by dogs that I never thought would bite me, and not bitten by dogs who I were CONVINCED would bite me). I can say that when my dogs have gotten into a scuffle, it has never been a big deal. My catahoula went after my pit once (and then ran like a weenie), and my pit turned to chase him down, but a quick loud vocal correction from myself stopped him in his tracks. The dogs were fine immediately after. I'm lucky to have dogs I can trust (although as an owner of two powerful breeds I never take that for granted!)
> 
> To the OP - sorry you had to deal with that. It sucks. Glad nobody got too badly hurt.




That is true, using a break stick on non bully breeds can cause serious injury to their jaw or teeth BUT with a serious fight going on, anything is better than nothing.. And if your not to forceful it should be okay and IMO is better than dead dogs.

I am so thankful I havnt had a serious dog fight in a long time. Bear has pretty bad DA and is very selective, and thats why when I am walking him he is right at my side, I have had two nose to nose close calls with neighbors labs on friggin flexi leads, and to many small DA/HA dogs on flexis or off lead running up to count, but thank God I can get Bear pulled up on his hind legs by the collar before anything has happened. 
But fights can happen out of no where and get nasty very fast and if it means I have to literally get down on the ground and choke a dog to stop it, then I will be down there. 
Glad your dogs didnt seriously hurt each other Muttkip! Seeing as their breeds arent bully, you should be fine and they should get along again. Just watch them close and be right there when you let them come back together.


----------



## minnieme

If my comment insinuated I wouldn't do everything I could do to break up a dog fight.....um....that's not what I was saying at all.


----------



## kevin bradley

DaneMama said:


> So....I totally should have kept my damn mouth shut. Not even 12 hours after boasting about the girls having a fight in over two years, they got into it.
> 
> The day before yesterday I had a raw feeder acquaintance over to do some butchering. She of course brought her dog to hang out and play with the girls. We did introductions carefully but when we let Shiloh say hi to him, all she wanted to do was kick some a$$. There was something that just wasn't right about him and her getting along...not sure what. SO, we put Shiloh away, and kept Maveric with us in the garage/shop with us while we worked. No biggie.
> 
> The next day, not even 12 hours after I opened my BIG FAT MOUTH about how peaceful things have been, Shiloh goes after Emmy. We were in the north west corner of their yard (I'm cleaning up trash/slash around the property-focused in my own little world), and Shiloh was being defensive about something, not sure what. I was able to break that little tiff up, so I didn't think much of it. BUT I should have put Shiloh inside.
> 
> Not more than ten minutes later, Shiloh goes for Bailey...and Bailey is hell bent to NOT back down. Then of course Emmy and Akasha get into the mix as well, why the hell not?! So now I'm alone, with four dogs all going primarily after Shiloh, but going after each other...Shiloh on Bailey, Shiloh on Emmy, Akasha on Emmy, Akasha on Shiloh (Emmy and Akasha NEVER goes after Bailey and vice versa). Usually Shiloh is the one who does some major damage because she just has that fighting instinct- people worry about APBTs but seriously...wolves freaking bring it. Not only are their teeth 20% larger, but they just have instinct. But not this time. Shiloh is getting her a$$ handed to her by Bailey, Akasha and Emmy.
> 
> So, I'm in the north west corner of the yard, screaming at the top of my lungs, trying to throw dogs off each other, trying to keep dogs from getting back into the fight. Meanwhile Jon is operating the noisy a$$ excavator on the other damn side of the yard...but somehow he's able to hear my blood curdling scream over the noise of the engine and comes running. Only he is able to really get Shiloh out of a fight. He doesn't choke her out, but just simply lifts her off the ground and once Shiloh is removed from the equation I can handle the rest (because the others just don't fight with each other without Shiloh there).
> 
> The only dog that stays completely out of the mix is Zuri...she's the true pacifist.
> 
> I'm shaking by the time Shiloh is exiled in the house. I check over everyone for damages, and Shiloh is the only one with a wound...nothing major. Luckily. It takes me HOURS to come down from it, and hours for me to feel comfortable introducing them back together. Of course the dogs were all cool by that time.
> 
> Either way....I don't care who you are, what kind of dogs you have, what training you do everyday, etc, etc.....EVERYONE (maybe not 0.01% of people) will resort to WHATEVER it takes to break up a fight between their dogs. Would I kill a random dog that attacks with the intent to kill one of my own? Hell yes. Until you're in the position to break up a fight between your dogs, you cannot say for sure what you would do...just sayin'



HEARD THAT! 

While someone else wants to review technique and get their "how to break up a Dog fight" Books out, I'm doing whatever I need to do to calm things down and remove the culprits from the situation. I've never had a Dog lock down on another Dog--I'm honestly not sure how I'd handle that one so I would guess some careful strategy would apply there. My scuffles have typically just been a bunch of snapping and growling....


----------



## committed2excellence

Not to be persnickety and hijack the thread, but as an owner of APBTs, GSDs and Rotties throughout my life I must ask what does the breed have to do with the dogs getting along again? 



Oso said:


> Seeing as their breeds arent bully, you should be fine and they should get along again. Just watch them close and be right there when you let them come back together.


----------



## xellil

OK I don't know why this is striking me as funny (it's really not). But thinking about transferring rules of the road of training to the proper etiquette in breaking up a serious dogfight, I am thinking about me and Rebel heading out on our walk

cell phone- check
Treats- check
Shovel for head whacking if he doesn't sit right - check

I know, i know. Not funny.


----------



## Rodeo

Julie said:


> This was taken from PBRC.net
> 
> Attempting to use a break stick on other breeds could result in serious injury to the person using the stick. Since other breeds will unpredictably snap and bite instead of getting a grip, you are far more likely to be bitten. You also should not attempt to use a break stick with other terriers. While all terriers grab and hold, pit bulls are far less likely to redirect their bite on an intervening human than, say, a Jack Russell Terrier. For the same reason, you also need to be very careful when separating your pit bull from another breed. Your pit bull will probably not bite you, but you might get bitten by the other dog.


I've only ever witnessed pit bull fights, and honestly I'd be terrified to try and separate any other breed. I had a very reactive APBT and an Am Bully who got into a few scuffles and one big fight. When they were just in a scuffle I could grab collars and drag them apart. I was never worried about getting bit. But now a GSD? I don't think I would want to get my hands near one in the heat of the moment.


----------



## MollyWoppy

Have a question. Does fighting tend to occur more between dogs of the same sex or does it not make any difference?


----------



## chowder

My two girl Chows used to go at each other all the time. And when Chows fight, they lock on each other and hang on. NOTHING will get them to let go. We originally tried the yelling, and the water hose, and once I was even beating them with lawn furniture! I agree, once you start to see the blood fly, you resort to whatever it takes to get them separated. It always ended up with some body part torn and bleeding before I finally got them apart and it got more frequent as they got older. 

I'm not sure if it is sex related or not. I have two boys and a girl dog now instead of 4 girl dogs, and I haven't had a single dog fight with this crew. It would take a lot for me to ever have multiple female chows together again but I won't hesitate to have 2 or more males chows (and other breeds) together.


----------



## xellil

I rarely had a female. I can only remember two. The males mostly got along, and sometimes we had 8-10 of them. There were definitely boss dogs though, and not-boss dogs. And the fights were mostly correctional when someone stepped out of line, or even more like a warning growl. They pretty much policed themselves and never got to the point of bloodshed. Most weren't neutered, either (yes I know - but it was a different time).

But one female I had started killing sheep shortly after we got her, and the males that had never killed sheep before followed right along and did it with her. She was definitely the boss of everybody.

I'm not sure I've ever seen a male/female really fighting but I don't have alot of experience. And I've not had two females at the same time - we could normally find homes for the females. Not to stereotype, but it wouldn't surprise me if females started more fights just from being bitchy.


----------



## Liz

We are actually going throught this right now. My old collie girl is fighting with her daughter and daughter wont give in. We are having to place her with a friend who does a lot of performance work - they adore her and we are taking back my male rough pup who is very submissive and not thriving in her home because she has alot of tough girls. I think the girls are way tougher - the boys only fight when they have no recourse. After having her mother I just don't challenge this girl enough and I think that causes frustration which escalated aggressive behavior. She will be so much happier working on titles and we will stil co-own her. Fighting dogs are hard, especially to get them to live together. At this point I won't risk either girl getting hurt and the youg one's show career being cancelled due to injury. And yes, whatever i takes to break up a fight I will do.


----------



## magicre

and never think that little dogs can't do damage.

we had a lab mix stray who went after a malti poo stray and had the maltipoo in between his jaws.

when the lab let the malti poo down, idiot that i am....i reached in to grab the malti poo and the malti poo wanted to bite the lab and bit me instead.

wound to the bone and fourteen stitches later, i'd have no problem doing whatever to break up a fight.

lesson learned? never get in the middle of a dog fight where the teeth are.


----------



## kady05

MollyWoppy said:


> Have a question. Does fighting tend to occur more between dogs of the same sex or does it not make any difference?


Generally speaking, same sex aggression is MUCH more common than opposite sex aggression. So fighting does tend to occur between same sex dogs. That's why when asked, I always recommend people have opposite sex dogs if they're going to have multiples. Just tends to work better.


----------



## SerenityFL

Muttkip said:


> Beau and Takoda got into a pretty intense fight about 20 or so minutes ago. I think a treat may have fell in the dog kennel while I had my back turned to pick up a leash....next thing I know BAM! Beau and Takoda are going at it!! Yup, my 19 pound Beagle tried to take on my 40 pound Lab/Mountain Cur mix. I'm hoping they'll still get along after this, but I'm going to give them a few days apart from each other to cool off. And no I did not get bit, thanks to what I learned on here for breaking up dog fights, I grabbed Takoda by the collar and choked her out to get her to let go of Beau's head and then grabbed Beau's collar to choke him out to get him let go of Takoda's leg....which he WOULD NOT DO!!! Whoever said Beagles aren't vicious have never seen this dog. He would not let go for the life of him. When he finally did, I carried him out of the pen and began the process of cleaning up the blood. No major puncture holes or scrapes, mostly just drool and a few minor scrapes and holes.
> 
> And yes, I broke this fight up by myself with no one's help. Why I didn't have my break stick or a leash....I didn't have time to grab them, so I did the next best thing and I didn't panic.
> 
> And no I did not post this to brag about my dog fight, just putting up so other people can see any breed of dog can fight.
> 
> Both dogs are fine, and no vet trips will be needed. Let this be a LESSON to anyone with a dog, this two dogs are NOT even APBT. They are a Beagle and Lab mutt and they still go into a fight. Any dog of any breed can and will fight!!


The only thing I'm going to say to this is that you are damn lucky you did not get bit. The very LAST place you reach for is the damn collar. What you should have done is take one of them by their hind legs and dragged him away from the other.

The rest...I'm not going to comment on because I'm not allowed to say what I want to say about this. The forum rules prohibit me from doing so.


----------



## committed2excellence

Another armchair quarterback I see. Ok, you start grabbing the hind legs of the dog. WHich dog do you grab? The winner, the loser? Let's say you grab the wrong set of legs and the other dog doesn't move and you begin tearing away flesh from the other dog. Or, let's say the dog who is being grabbed let's go and NAILS you. I have seen that as well. The crux of the matter in my eyes is: are you worried about saving the dog or getting bitten? Sometimes in a situation like this you have to get dirty. Sorry that you feel limited in casting your judgment against the forum member who did the best that they could under their set of circumstances.



SerenityFL said:


> The only thing I'm going to say to this is that you are damn lucky you did not get bit. The very LAST place you reach for is the damn collar. What you should have done is take one of them by their hind legs and dragged him away from the other.
> 
> The rest...I'm not going to comment on because I'm not allowed to say what I want to say about this. The forum rules prohibit me from doing so.


----------



## kevin bradley

boy, I'm really gonna stoke the flames on this one... but I'm being honest here....

one of my boys is into an all out brawl, the LAST thing I'm worried about is getting bit. Screw it, I'll heal. My #1 goal is stopping that fight. I'll get bit and while there is a remote chance I could die, its doubtful I will. 

Would I recommend this to everyone? No, probably not.


----------



## PDXdogmom

I think a lesson to take away from this is that any dog of any breed and age may initiate an attack given the right circumstances.

I remember I was shocked the first time I saw a serious attack when it was a male golden retriever going after a female lab puppy. I was under the impression that golden retrievers were these totally friendly love everybody breed of dog. I constantly keep in mind now that all dogs are animals and will act instinctually. We tend to humanize them too much sometimes and have incorrect expectations.


----------



## chowder

From personal experience with a LOT of chow fights..... if you grab the hind legs and pull on one of these dogs, you will end up just pulling both dogs around the yard. They will NOT let go for anything. They don't growl, they don't make horrible sounds and rip and tear, they just latch on and hang on. Pulling on them accomplishes nothing except tearing the holes bigger. 

My Chows never bit me or even turned on me when I was breaking up a fight. Their one thought was to kill each other. My advantage was their sheer amount of hair and our climate. They would exhaust themselves in the heat and trying to hang on through all that neck hair and eventually I could pry them apart. I would be a lot more hesitant with dogs I did not know that well, especially short coated breeds that were doing a lot more damage to each other.


----------



## maplewood

MollyWoppy said:


> Have a question. Does fighting tend to occur more between dogs of the same sex or does it not make any difference?


In my experience two unaltered female dogs are 100 times worse than the boys. The boys will argue and get over it, bitches NEVER forget! I have one in my pack that has to be kept seperate from the rest. She woke one morning decided she didn't like another girl and has never gotten along since.


----------



## xellil

i don't know who thought of that fricken hind leg thing. It sure never worked for me, not one time. Grab BOTH hind legs and lift them off the ground, not one, is what they say - it's supposed to make them lose their grip. Maybe that works with some breeds. I never saw it work.

And you can't pull a dog off when he's got another by the throat and won't let go, unless you want him to rip the throat out. He's got to loosen his jaws.

Getting bit isn't the worst thing in the world. If it's that or watch my dog get mauled to death, it's an easy choice.


----------



## catahoulamom

I agree, picking up the hind legs and trying to pull the dogs apart is not the way to end a fight where two dogs are holding on and not letting go (or if you are alone). Pit bulls, and chows (as chowder pointed out), tend to grab and hold. I have seen other breeds do this as well (as muttkip stated her beagle was doing - grabbing and holding onto the leg). Grabbing the back legs and pulling them away won't get you anywhere in that situation. I was put into a BAD situation before when two pit bulls went at it and it was only me and another girl in the immediate room to separate them. Tried grabbing the legs and pulling, all that does is cause MORE damage (the dogs tend to shake their heads when you pull), one of them had grabbed onto the other's lip and wouldn't let go. I grabbed the dog that was latched onto the other, she grabbed the one that was being bit, we lifted them up (by their collars, yes) and let them hold but not shake. As soon as she lost her breath, she loosened her grip on the other dog they were separated and immediately given medical care. This was an example of a life and death situation where anything had to be done to save the dogs. I don't regret what I did, but I realize I was very lucky to not have been injured, thank god the dog didn't redirect onto myself. Man, now my adrenaline is rushing just thinking back to that event... hwell:

I hope I will never be put in that situation again, and I feel very lucky that my dogs have never fought to that extreme (we've never had anything more than a scuffle that I can break up with my voice). Maybe there are other breeds where you can grab the back legs to separate them, but not in my experience. 

Kevin, I too would risk getting bit to separate my dogs if they ever got into it. Getting bit is the LAST thing I have on my mind when separating dogs (and no, I wouldn't recommend it either). Worst case scenario, I do get bit, have to go to the hospital for a couple stitches, I wouldn't indulge what dog bit me.


----------



## kady05

committed2excellence said:


> Another armchair quarterback I see. Ok, you start grabbing the hind legs of the dog. WHich dog do you grab? The winner, the loser? Let's say you grab the wrong set of legs and the other dog doesn't move and you begin tearing away flesh from the other dog. Or, let's say the dog who is being grabbed let's go and NAILS you. I have seen that as well. The crux of the matter in my eyes is: are you worried about saving the dog or getting bitten? Sometimes in a situation like this you have to get dirty. Sorry that you feel limited in casting your judgment against the forum member who did the best that they could under their set of circumstances.


Good post.


----------



## Sprocket

Honestly, if my dogs got in a brawl with any dogs/cat/human/living being I would do anything necessary to get them apart. If water, leg lifting, shouting, And stomping didn't work, then watch put cause here comes the kicking and collar grabbing. 

A friend of mine invited his cousins over once. His cousins brought their rottwieler/sheperd dog which proceeded to pick a fight with their boxer/lab. Those dogs would not let go. I happen to have a hose in my hand so I sprayed them. Still nothing, my friend ended up holding his dog by the collar and basically hanging him, while he punched the other dog in the face. After about 6 swings, the rottwieler/shepherd let go and the cousins left. Scariest dog fight I've ever seen.


----------



## CorgiPaws

In my house, same-sex aggression has been an issue in the past... with Champ it got so bad that we really had no option but to rehome him. We were already intending to when he came back to us but the night he went after Braxton was it for me. 
However, females in general are snappier. It takes less to set them off than the males for the most part. (I think this might apply to all species. LOL) We haven't had a fight since Champ left... and most all of them were always started by (and would have been finished by) him. 

You can have al the training in the world... dog fights are NEVER "by the books." So, you can sit there and talk to fluffy snuggle poo and see if he will be a good little boy and "leave it" OR... you can risk getting bit, and get your butt in there, and get the damn dogs apart. *There is NO "humane" way to break up a fight. *There flat out isn't. 
Grab the back legs and pull? Sure, very effective in a scuffle where no one really has hold, and there's two people there. And you'll probably get bit.
High pressure hose? If one happens to be handy, it's worth a shot. Unless it's a real fight, then it's hardly effective. 
Loud noise? Laughable, at best. Air horns are somewhat effective... for scuffles.

I'll be blunt here. I don't even like Muttkip. (Oh come on, not like it was a secret!) But, until someone has a better actually EFFECTIVE way to break up a fight than brute force... I find nothing wrong with what they did. 
Because let me tell you, the night Champ latched onto Braxton and sunk his teeth into the back of his neck, dragged him across the living room, and started shaking him like a rag doll.... I wasn't about to drag them around my house by Champ's back legs. I hit. I kicked. And I grabbed Champ's collar, and pulled up, under the jaw, the cut off the air. That second that he gasped was the second that I was able to get him off, and drag him outside while I looked over my 4 month old puppy, cleaned his punctures, mopped the blood off the floor, and tried desperately to calm the hell back down.

ETA: I Think that DA is something that EVERY multi-dog home will have to deal with to some degree at one point or another. If you think that a "whatever means necessary" approach is irresponsible, abusive, or cruel... you just wait until it's your dog clamped in the jaws of another, and see what you are and aren't willing to do to end it. If Champ were not also my dog... and if I was not able to get him off of there myself the way I did, you are damn right I'd have done more.


----------



## minnieme

Does Braxton have any dog/dog aggression or fear issues now, Linsey? 

Poor lil (now big) guy!!


----------



## CorgiPaws

minnieme said:


> Does Braxton have any dog/dog aggression or fear issues now, Linsey?
> 
> Poor lil (now big) guy!!


Thank DOG he doesn't. We have scuffles here and there over toys or food or someone being crabby, but that was a new level for me. (At home, anyway) The dogs got over it much faster than I did. Luckily, the very next day we had a family inquire about Champ (and yes I told them about his same sex DA) and it's worked out beautifully but for the few days in between, Champ was completely separate from my males. 
He has a scar behind his ear, but other than that, his 5 punctures healed up perfectly... he has not been around any other GSD-type dogs since then though, so I have no idea how he would react but he seems to be fine around other dogs. He was at daycare today. :smile:

ETA: I'm glad it was him- if it had to be any of them. I think if it had been Kola or Timber they would have been more... impressionable and developed issues. Braxton's best quality is his incredibly laid back, mellow, accepting-of-new-things personality. The girls are great temperament wise, but a little bit more unsure by nature.


----------



## hmbutler

maplewood said:


> In my experience two unaltered female dogs are 100 times worse than the boys. *The boys will argue and get over it, bitches NEVER forget!* I have one in my pack that has to be kept seperate from the rest. She woke one morning decided she didn't like another girl and has never gotten along since.


So... just like humans? Lol

This thread kinda makes me glad that Duke is our only dog, and that he only has playdates, rather than a housemate... I still want a second dog, lol, but I think I'll lean toward a female instead!


----------



## meggels

I really can't see Abbie and Murph getting into a fight. Hope it never occurs. 


Our in tact frenchie females were real bitches though, and you could tell when a fight was about to break out because you'd see one or more give the stink eye.


----------



## MollyWoppy

hmbutler said:


> This thread kinda makes me glad that Duke is our only dog, and that he only has playdates, rather than a housemate... I still want a second dog, lol, but I think I'll lean toward a female instead!


I'm afraid I'm like you, I really really need (want) another dog, but I'm not allowed. The bastard! But, I'm planning for the day when he's in a coma or something and I can adopt another. As I've got a female, and even though I prefer females, I'll probably go for a male, just to be on the safe side.

(I really am joking about the coma thing btw).


----------



## hmbutler

MollyWoppy said:


> (I really am joking about the coma thing btw).


Suuuurrrrreeeeee you are... haha

Yeah I still email rescues and ask questions about their dogs, in case hubby changes his mind and I will be prepared for exactly which one we should go meet first haha. He loves betting on the greyhounds, and jokingly said we should get one, so now I'm sending him greyhound rescue pics hahaha


----------



## NewYorkDogue

Yeah- I agree that you "gotta get dirty", or do what ever you need to do to get the dogs apart..

My story: Several years ago I was driving up to a friend's house about 3 hours north of the city with my then Black Lab, Luke for a weekend reunion. When we arrived, I let Luke out to sniff around while I greeted my friends. She had just finished telling me that her two dogs (big mixed breeds) were safely secured in the basement as they were unreliable around strange dogs, when- Bam! Her two dogs burst through the open front door and jumped my dog. One latched on to his neck while the other one circled around him, biting his back and legs. Luke let out a horrifying screaming yelp--- I ran up to him as my friend and her son were hitting the back of her dogs with the first thing they could grab: broom handle, shovel. That did nothing. I just dove in and grabbed the dog's jaws that were around Luke's neck and pried them apart, while digging my nails in hard and smashing his nose as best I could. It took awhile, and I got a puncture wound as well as some nasty deep purple bruises, but it did work. 

Pure adrenaline, plus my "momma-bear instinct" must have kicked in, cause according to textbook- it's the wrong thing to do. But I was purely focused on saving my dog-- and I didn't care if I got hurt, or if I hurt the aggressive dog.* My only thought was: "Got - to - get - the - teeth - off - of - my - dog."

*Reminds me of when I was traveling alone in Israel and was attacked by a man in a remote area. The only way I survived was by jamming two fingers into his eye sockets and running like hell. I was 19 and barely 100 pounds. Amazing what kicks in when you (or your dog) is in trouble...


----------



## Celt

From my experiences, the worst fights were always between the "nordic" type breeds (not including the wolf hybrids cause that's a whole different kettle of fish) with hounds following as a close second. As for breaking up a fight, a bottle of vinegar dumped on them can sometimes work. Not really humane though as it probably burns like the dickens


----------



## Muttkip

SerenityFL said:


> The only thing I'm going to say to this is that you are damn lucky you did not get bit. The very LAST place you reach for is the damn collar. What you should have done is take one of them by their hind legs and dragged him away from the other.
> 
> The rest...I'm not going to comment on because I'm not allowed to say what I want to say about this. The forum rules prohibit me from doing so.


Yeah go ahead and say what you what you want to say, dogs fight it happens. This was an ACCIDENT, I NEVER wanted my dogs to fight, that would be stupid of me. And also go right ahead the next time my Beagle gets in a fight and grab him by his hind legs, that dog WILL NOT LET GO for the life of him. When he's gripped on, he's LOCKED on with the intention to KILL! He's not your average dog and he's bred down from many generations of hunting dogs, that make him like that. It took me a full MINUTE of choking him to get him to let go of Takoda's leg. So go right ahead and try that and see if you walk away with all your fingers intact.


----------



## stajbs

In our experience it's been same sex aggression. Two spayed females in particular. They lived together only because neither of them "liked" to fight, and they tolerated each other, but every now and then it seemed to just build up in them. The few times they fought they were glorious bitch fights. Worst part is the goofy boys always thought they were playing and they wanted to participate in the play fest. I'm definitely the wade in no matter what the cost type. I prefered not to see any of my dogs have a chance to hurt each other, and I've been bitten once, but as soon as Aurora realized she missed Sandi and got me the fight ended. Other times, thankfully in 17 years only 3/4 total fights, you could sense the tension building and make some adjustments to things until their case of the snits was over. I tried the screaming, making noise, pull the hind legs, a hose, and it did not cut it for us. If there were a fight I wanted it ended post haste and on my terms, therefore I waded in, since no other method seemed to work at all. I never had to choke the dogs either, just wait for the split second while fighting when one dog pulls away, grab O rings and have two 50 pound siberians jacked up on their hind legs, one hanging off of each arm. That's when you can have at them verbally about how their crappy behavior will not be tolerated, plop them back down on all fours and continue to mumble at them about how disgusted you are. I feel this way, I am their leader, I need to do my best to avoid any catalyst for a fight, and keep control and maintain the peace. Our more submissive girls and all 3 boys never pushed it. Just Sandi the GSD/sibe mix and Aurora, the show princess.


----------



## GoingPostal

We've never had a full on fight, don't give them much chance to or anything to fight over but the couple bad scuffles we've had I just wade in the middle and grab collars or scruffs if they are naked, not too concerned about them redirecting on me and they haven't so far, even if I stick my hands in between them, best to have two people around because then one of us can just pick up a dog and get out of the situation. I've got break sticks and leashes around the house in case it ever got serious but so far we've been fast enough that it hasn't gone past snapping and snarling. Nothing wrong with choking out a dog if that's your only option, lot better than letting them continue to go at it.


----------



## Oso

committed2excellence said:


> Not to be persnickety and hijack the thread, but as an owner of APBTs, GSDs and Rotties throughout my life I must ask what does the breed have to do with the dogs getting along again?


I was just saying when bully typed dogs get into a fight it is more likely to be DA and thats not going to just go away, like with lets say Yorkies, my Gmas Yorkies get into squabbles all the time and the bitches get into serious fights and they still live side by side fine, but more likely than not if two bully breed dogs get into a serious fight, they cant live side by side again because they have broken through DA threshold. Not saying it isnt possible, but its not likely.

Thats just what I meant.


----------



## magicre

MollyWoppy said:


> I'm afraid I'm like you, I really really need (want) another dog, but I'm not allowed. The bastard! But, I'm planning for the day when he's in a coma or something and I can adopt another. As I've got a female, and even though I prefer females, I'll probably go for a male, just to be on the safe side.
> 
> (I really am joking about the coma thing btw).


you're only joking because you'd be the one to put him there LOL...now i'm joking.

and since when have you ever listened to him? get another dog


----------



## leilaquinn

I have had to break up A LOT of dog fights. i worked at one daycare for a while that was just not a great place, understaffed and greedy owners who turned few dogs away. There were multiple times where i was alone with up to 20 dogs (reason I didn't stay long) i have delt with all kinds of fights, and as much as I hated it I felt like I had some experience and could deal with the possible DA that comes with having a bully breed. I'm not sure if I've talked about Vito here yet, it hurts a lot still. The last pit bull my husband and I adopted was the love of my life, we were soul mates, I feel. he had been through some very serious abuse before we adopted him, and that may have contributed to what i think was mostly bad wiring/genetics. He was my best friend, and we trusted each other completely, but he was extremely fear aggresive towards children. We agonised, spent thousands on multiple behaviorists, and ultimately made the heart breaking decision to put him down. he died in my arms and I will never stop loving him. 

his HA had nothing to do with his DA, but that little brindle boy turned out to be very DA. He had previously been fine with my mom's dog, who I got at 14 and adore, he is mine in a way still, though my mom couldn't part with him when I moved out. I made the mistake of leaving a toy out, and Vito tried, wholeheartedly, to kill Birdie (he's now 15, was 13 at the time, half boston half mini schnauzer) I was not prepared for what that 35 lb pit bull was capable of. i didn't have a break stick at the time, but managed to use a butter knife in place of one in my panic. My best friend was there, which is all that saved Birdie's life. I got zero redirection from Vito, and Birdie was just crying and trying to get away, I would have been thrilled if he let go long enough to bite me, all i could think about was saving birdie. It was one of the scariest things I've ever been through, I loved them both sooo much and felt powerless. 

So far Luigi has shown no DA, though his prey drive is high and I wouldn't trust him totally with tiny dogs. I am prepared every time he plays with another dog, always with a breakstick on hand. he is more than twice Vito's size, and i will never be unprepared again. i hope Luigi always likes other dogs, but if he doesn't I'm ready. there is no nice way to break up a dog fight, and it is so scary you just can't think straight.


----------



## whiteleo

kevin bradley said:


> boy, I'm really gonna stoke the flames on this one... but I'm being honest here....
> 
> one of my boys is into an all out brawl, the LAST thing I'm worried about is getting bit. Screw it, I'll heal. My #1 goal is stopping that fight. I'll get bit and while there is a remote chance I could die, its doubtful I will.
> 
> Would I recommend this to everyone? No, probably not.



That was my thought when my two B.T's girls got into it, and they have an unwillingness to let go. Because I don't keep collars on my dogs in the house as they will "play choke" each other,( one even threw the other down a cliff on a hike) I did exactly anything I could to get them apart and my finger was fractured in the process with the light of day showing through. I still don't have all the feeling in the tip of mt finger and probably won't ever get it back.

I have since rehomed the last girl we brought into the house but before that I bought a zap stick, and that worked to separate the girls real fast.


----------



## whiteleo

Oso said:


> I was just saying when bully typed dogs get into a fight it is more likely to be DA and thats not going to just go away, like with lets say Yorkies, my Gmas Yorkies get into squabbles all the time and the bitches get into serious fights and they still live side by side fine, but more likely than not if two bully breed dogs get into a serious fight, they cant live side by side again because they have broken through DA threshold. Not saying it isnt possible, but its not likely.
> 
> Thats just what I meant.


That's not true!

My female, and the last rescue got along fine for months, once she decided that she was staying and she wasn't doing things to her liking or if she didn't like how close she got to the humans, she'd start a fight, it would be months in between fights and they would play and live side by side together. They would be fine as long as people were not involved. I think towards the end of her stay we really had it figured out and were on the females every minute and could diffuse something before it started.

As far as always being DA, my female goes to daycare and plays great with small dogs.


----------



## magicre

whiteleo said:


> That was my thought when my two B.T's girls got into it, and they have an unwillingness to let go. Because I don't keep collars on my dogs in the house as they will "play choke" each other,( one even threw the other down a cliff on a hike) I did exactly anything I could to get them apart and my finger was fractured in the process with the light of day showing through. I still don't have all the feeling in the tip of mt finger and probably won't ever get it back.
> 
> I have since rehomed the last girl we brought into the house but before that I bought a zap stick, and that worked to separate the girls real fast.


fortunately, i've never had dogs who fought.

but when i was a kid, there was this gigunda standard poodle who hated my little mixed cocker spaniel. no rhyme nor reason, but this was the bully dog of the neighbourhood.

he got my little scampy against a garage door and was beating the crap out of him.

at that point, i couldn't have been more than 12...and i got in the middle of it, screamed, kicked, did whatever i had to do to get that monster dog off my little one.

you do what you gotta do because we promised our dogs to protect them.

if they go after each other.....the promise is that we stop the fight. no matter what method is used.....as someone said, all bets are off.


----------



## xellil

I find it somewhat odd, some of what I have been reading.

If pit bulls are more dog aggressive than all the other breeds, perhaps they SHOULD be treated differently.

If people don't want breed legislation against them, perhaps the dogs shouldn't be set apart from all the other dogs in the world by people saying you should expect your pit bull to attack another dog at some point.

Personally, I don't want my dogs to live near or be around a dog that could attack them at any minute. And the pit bulls I know are extremely friendly dogs. It just seems like it's setting them up as a target to say they are not like any other dog, with any other dog's likelihood of being dog aggressive.

They can't be different and alike at the same time. That just fuels the fire of the people who want to ban them.


----------



## whiteleo

I think all dogs can be aggressive given the right circumstances...the problem with bully breeds is their tenacity and unwillingness to "let go" enough said.


----------



## leilaquinn

All dog breeds have genetic tendancies, and not all individuls of any breed are like the majority. I am aware that my dog friendly pit bull is genetically inclined to take a minor scuffle more seriously than the AVERAGE beagle, who have been bred to hunt in packs. i am carefull because he is bred to adore people and not back down from a challenge from another dog. Muttkip's beagle and my pit bull have somewhat atypical dog social-ness for their respective breeds. all dogs are individuals, but if you have a pet rabbit loose in your home and you adopt a bunch of greyhounds you can expect and accident at some point. Herding dogs can be annoying when they herd out of context, bully breeds can be annoying (and, yes, dangerous) when they want to start a fight with a dog who is no threat, but ultimately it is up to responsible owners to be aware of their dogs individual temperament AND genetic predispositions and take precautions accordingly. most breed specific traits where put there by us, DA in pit bulls certainly, so it is up to us not to set our dogs up to do something we don't like, or that will get them in trouble.


----------



## maplewood

hmbutler said:


> So... just like humans? Lol
> 
> This thread kinda makes me glad that Duke is our only dog, and that he only has playdates, rather than a housemate... I still want a second dog, lol, but I think I'll lean toward a female instead!


Pretty much LOL

I don't think I could handle a one dog house. I thrive on the chaos I think


----------



## Muttkip

Just to update everyone!! Re-introduction was a WIN!!! They still get along!!!!


----------



## catahoulamom

Glad to hear, muttkip. Remember that small spaces can also cause dogs to get a little testy (I know your female lives in her kennel - not sure if you ever let Beau in there or not). Hope you don't have any more issues.


----------



## Muttkip

catahoulamom said:


> Glad to hear, muttkip. Remember that small spaces can also cause dogs to get a little testy (I know your female lives in her kennel - not sure if you ever let Beau in there or not). Hope you don't have any more issues.


I do let Beau in there for short periods of time to allow them to play while under my supervision, but other then that no they are not in a small space. The issue was a treat and since Beau has some resource guarding issues towards other dogs that is what caused it, a small crumb of a treat is what I'm guessing that fell out of my pocket, so basically no more high value objects while they're together and they'll be good to go!


----------



## frogdog

I am spending the month of Oct at my mother's place in the mountains. It's an amazing place on 10 acres where you see an abundance of wild life. Well, we have never heard Yogi even growl or show any aggressive/mean behavior/temperament towards a person or animal. We are keeping some friends chocolate lab for five days and lord behold not long after he gets here he tries to attack my little French Bulldog...no reason at all. Yogi was just being his happy congenial self. Then, the lab turns on my mother's little malt-poo, Louie. He had Louie underneath him just about to bite down when we all reacted just in time. So, you just never know.

I wanted to add concerning dog breeds....I got my first rottie in 8th grade and my second at age 23 and neither dog ever showed aggression towards another animal. They were the sweetest big 'ol lap dogs you could have ever asked for. 

I will tell you a story from several years ago about my step-father's cocker spaniel, Boz, that looked more like a brittany. We were at her house like so many times before sitting around talking and my sweet "Little One" was just sitting there watching being completely still. All of a sudden, Boz goes full force from 6' away towards Little One and attacked him. I reacted instantly and grabbed him up and Boz kept attacking. Everyone was freaking out because I had blood pouring down my arms all over the floor and no one could get control of this dog that out of the blue started acting like Cujo. Luckily, he had only tore my dogs ear...needless to say...I disliked that dog there after. Boz was literally trying to kill my dog and would have if I didn't selflessly without thinking reached down and grabbed Little One just in time because he was going after his neck.

I can promise you if any dog or any other animal attacks my dog...I will do everything in my power to protect him...even...if that results in me getting hurt.


----------



## lauren43

MollyWoppy said:


> Have a question. Does fighting tend to occur more between dogs of the same sex or does it not make any difference?





maplewood said:


> In my experience two unaltered female dogs are 100 times worse than the boys. The boys will argue and get over it, bitches NEVER forget! I have one in my pack that has to be kept seperate from the rest. She woke one morning decided she didn't like another girl and has never gotten along since.


I actually heard that two spayed females are the worst. Regardless its usually females that have a harder time getting along...



committed2excellence said:


> Not to be persnickety and hijack the thread, but as an owner of APBTs, GSDs and Rotties throughout my life I must ask what does the breed have to do with the dogs getting along again?


Breed does matter. Bullys have been bred to fight other dogs and while there's no guarantee either way, its something to consider with bully breeds.


----------



## Celt

I've never believed in banning/eliminating a breed, but from the way people have been talking about (mostly) pit bulls, I gotta say that I am leaning towards these breeds/types not being safe to have around. I know that any breed of dog can be DA but for the most part it's more an "exception" kind of thing while from what's been "said" it's to be expected to occur in this breed (even for "well bred" dogs). Perhaps breeding practices need to be seriously overhauled.


----------



## RachelsaurusRexU

leilaquinn said:


> All dog breeds have genetic tendancies, and not all individuls of any breed are like the majority. I am aware that my dog friendly pit bull is genetically inclined to take a minor scuffle more seriously than the AVERAGE beagle, who have been bred to hunt in packs. i am carefull because he is bred to adore people and not back down from a challenge from another dog. Muttkip's beagle and my pit bull have somewhat atypical dog social-ness for their respective breeds. all dogs are individuals, but if you have a pet rabbit loose in your home and you adopt a bunch of greyhounds you can expect and accident at some point. Herding dogs can be annoying when they herd out of context, bully breeds can be annoying (and, yes, dangerous) when they want to start a fight with a dog who is no threat, but ultimately it is up to responsible owners to be aware of their dogs individual temperament AND genetic predispositions and take precautions accordingly. most breed specific traits where put there by us, DA in pit bulls certainly, so it is up to us not to set our dogs up to do something we don't like, or that will get them in trouble.


Agreed 110%!


----------



## lauren43

Celt said:


> I've never believed in banning/eliminating a breed, but from the way people have been talking about (mostly) pit bulls, I gotta say that I am leaning towards these breeds/types not being safe to have around. I know that any breed of dog can be DA but for the most part it's more an "exception" kind of thing while from what's been "said" it's to be expected to occur in this breed (even for "well bred" dogs). Perhaps breeding practices need to be seriously overhauled.


Dog aggression and human aggression are two completely different things. Just because a dog is DA does not mean they are not safe to be around. Many ppl who have posted have said they prefer to break up a pit/bully breed fight because they are less likely to redirect. Until you've had a bully type dog, its hard to understand why ppl own them. 

I was very hesitant before I got Avery because I 'heard' so many rumors. Avery is everything I wanted in a dog, great energy and drive and the best snuggler in the world. He currently loves other dogs, lives to play. But I know that could change, I of course always hope for the best but its important to be realistic.

Also what is banning going to accomplish...nothing. Just more BYBs breeding for all the wrong reasons!

Also there is dog aggression and dog selectivity...two different thing ppl mix up!


----------



## cast71

bsl is stupid. just another right there trying to take away. i've had a bully breed for 8.5 years. like any dog, it all depends on how the dog was raised. good owner=good dog. bad owner=bad dog. my dog once was bitt by a man eating chiwawa ahahaahah and he just turned the opposite direction. i don't see any da in him, he gets along great with other dogs, never had a need for special training or special handling. all the da and special handling talk just fuels bsl. there are alot of dogs in kill shelters that have no da and need homes;0)


----------



## Donna Little

Celt said:


> I've never believed in banning/eliminating a breed, but from the way people have been talking about (mostly) pit bulls, I gotta say that I am leaning towards these breeds/types not being safe to have around. I know that any breed of dog can be DA but for the most part it's more an "exception" kind of thing while from what's been "said" it's to be expected to occur in this breed (even for "well bred" dogs). Perhaps breeding practices need to be seriously overhauled.


Unfortunately I think this was in the past (and obviously still even now) a trait that was highly desired. Sad but true. With that trait for fighting, or intense tenacity, also generally comes a wonderful human companion that can be trusted in most any circumstance. Like someone else on here said, a herding dog that's herding out of context can be a pain, so can any dog that's genetically wired to do something but becomes inappropriate with it. This is just something that being a responsible bully owner has to be aware of.
I think there's a saying that goes something like, "what one dog will start a Pitbull will finish." And in my experience that's pretty accurate. I fostered a precious TINY Pitbull for close to a year and she loved other dogs. Couldn't play enough, and always took a submissive posture with others. BUT, one day a dog started a squabble with her and she initially backed down. The dog continued to pick and she quickly had enough. Within seconds she was attacking and she meant business. I had to get in there fast and break it up and it was intense. With that said though, I would trust a Pitbull before nearly any dog to be fantastic in most situations with people. So, it's a trade off I guess and one that a Pitbull owner should be willing to accept and deal with. 
When I managed the Petfinder site for my local AC I would get in the kennel with a Pitbull I'd never met in a heartbeat and never worry about getting bitten. But I knew with a small scared dog I better be much more careful. And I own a whole herd of small dogs! I think Pitbulls are wonderful dogs and any responsible owner knows to be careful to keep their dog out of trouble if the wrong situation presented itself.
As far as owning too many dogs of the same sex, I have 9 dogs and 7 are female. My dogs have never fought so I guess it's the luck of the draw and so far I've been lucky. My Chi Toby can be a real ass when he wants to but he's all talk and no one is particularly concerned with him when he gets in a mood. 
Glad all is working out for you Muttkip and that no one was more seriously injured. You gotta do what you gotta do sometimes when a fight breaks out and it's seldom pretty....


----------



## catahoulamom

Celt said:


> I've never believed in banning/eliminating a breed, but from the way people have been talking about (mostly) pit bulls, I gotta say that I am leaning towards these breeds/types not being safe to have around. I know that any breed of dog can be DA but for the most part it's more an "exception" kind of thing while from what's been "said" it's to be expected to occur in this breed (even for "well bred" dogs). Perhaps breeding practices need to be seriously overhauled.


I agree with what you mean about breeding practices (if you're saying what I think you are saying)... I think it sucks that dog aggression is an acceptable trait in pit bulls. I wish that instead of dog aggression being an acceptable trait, that they would focus on breeding dogs that have never shown traits of dog aggression. I don't know much about genetics, I'm sure it would take generations and generations to breed out the "fighting" genes, but it is something that should be done (IMO). Although, I'm sure that even if they did try to breed DA out of pit bulls, there would still be a DA dog every once in a while, just as there is in any other breed. 

I am not a person who thinks that just because you own a bully breed you need to be extra cautious. I think if you own *ANY* large breed you need to be extra cautious, because ANY big dog can do some serious damage, and ANY breed could turn out to be dog (or human) aggressive. I have been working with dogs the past 5 years and the dogs that I have seen most frequently with serious aggression issues towards either people or other animals are SCHNAUZERS. I had a schnauzer go for my neck once (luckily I moved and he just ripped my ear). I've also had one latch onto my wrist and refuse to let go (I have a big ugly half-moon scar thanks to the jerk). Do I think the dogs should be banned? No. Do I think stupid people owning dogs that have the possibility to be dangerous (to either people or dogs) should be banned? YES... but unfortunately, there is no way to put a law in place for such thing (that I know of). 

For the record (one more time), I own two catahoulas and a pit bull and a 35lb cocker/lab mutt. I trust my pit bull around people and dogs 10x's more than the catahoulas or the mutt. They are very picky about who they like, my pit isn't. However I will NEVER under any circumstances leave any my dogs unattended with people they don't know or dogs (other than the dogs in my pack), because they are dogs, and dogs will be... dogs. You can have all the trust in the world in your dog, and no matter what the breed is, they can be unpredictable at times. That is why it is so important to know about body language and again... to *know thy dog.* I feel so lucky to have such wonderful, well behaved dogs... but just because a dog is dog aggressive (regardless of the breed), I don't think they should be banned. If I had a dog aggressive dog, I wouldn't euthanize him, I would take the proper precautions to make sure he doesn't harm another dog, and try to give him the best doggy-free life possible!

Sorry for rambling... but this is something I am very passionate about. Pit bulls are banned where I live (in Miami-Dade county). Although Rambo was certified by a professional as a service dog (and trained very well for it), we had neighbors complaining to our landlord because they didn't like the way he looks. Rather than try to fight it, we took Rambo to stay at a family member's house (whom he used to live with) in Broward county where they are legal. I did not want animal services knocking on my door questioning me about my dog. We are breaking our lease and loosing a couple grand to move as soon as possible out of Dade county, so we can have our family back together again. Hopefully we will be out within 6 weeks. *BSL SUCKS.*


----------



## Celt

In our society dogs come in contact with other dogs quite often, so I think that being DA makes a dog not safe to be around. After all, many of us have stated that we would do anything to break up a fight and while a pit may be less likely to redirect, they are just as likely to "bite down" by accident. It's been my belief that good owner=good dog, bad=bad, but several have "said" that they knew of well socialized, trained, etc dogs that became DA and that it was something that they expected would most likely happen because of the breed. In fact many of them have implied that almost all will become DA when they are "fully" grown that non DA dogs are the exception. And I'll probably be blasted for this but I think that a (unprovoked) HA dog that doesn't have a reason to be so (i.e. abused) should be put down and (sadly) very aggressive abused ones as well. To me, they are no different than a "keg" of unstablized nitro.


To the OP, glad to hear that your dogs are getting along again. Here's hoping it will be their last one.


----------



## catahoulamom

Oh yeah, I even stated myself that I know lots of dogs that have become dog aggressive despite their owners doing wonderful (and in my opinion perfect) jobs raising them. But none of these dogs that I am speaking of have been pit bulls. Heck, one of my dog's is dog selective (with new dogs), and I did a great job socializing him! I am talking about the fact that any breed of dog can become dog aggressive, whether or not the owner does a good job raising them. I am not specifically referring to pit bulls. Yes, I am positive that there are DA pit bulls out there who's owners have done everything by the book raising them - but that goes for any breed. The majority of chihuahua's I come across are dog aggressive, but it's not a 'big deal' because their owners pick them up and coddle them, and the dog wouldn't necessarily be able to do much damage to a human or dog. The reason people make such a big deal about pit bulls is because of how large they are, and their terrier mentality. 

I've always said that if jack russel's were the size of pit bulls, they would also be deemed illegal through BSL.

Edit... sorry Muttkip, your thread has been hijacked and turned into yet another pit bull debate... lol. Anyways, again glad to hear the dogs are both doing alright... and sorry for getting off-topic! I think I've expressed my opinion (or the facts  enough, I'll keep my mouth shut from now on!


----------



## Donna Little

catahoulamom said:


> Oh yeah, I even stated myself that I know lots of dogs that have become dog aggressive despite their owners doing wonderful (and in my opinion perfect) jobs raising them. But none of these dogs that I am speaking of have been pit bulls. Heck, one of my dog's is dog selective (with new dogs), and I did a great job socializing him! I am talking about the fact that any breed of dog can become dog aggressive, whether or not the owner does a good job raising them. I am not specifically referring to pit bulls. Yes, I am positive that there are DA pit bulls out there who's owners have done everything by the book raising them - but that goes for any breed. The majority of chihuahua's I come across are dog aggressive, but it's not a 'big deal' because their owners pick them up and coddle them, and the dog wouldn't necessarily be able to do much damage to a human or dog. The reason people make such a big deal about pit bulls is because of how large they are, and their terrier mentality.
> 
> I've always said that if jack russel's were the size of pit bulls, they would also be deemed illegal through BSL.



Are you talkin' bout this Chihuahua?? Don't make him come down there....:wink:


----------



## catahoulamom

LMAO! He looks like he could kick mine AND all my dog's a$$es!!!!


----------



## Donna Little

catahoulamom said:


> LMAO! He looks like he could kick mine AND all my dog's a$$es!!!!


And his other look. Stoner or stone cold killa??? you decide....


----------



## catahoulamom

D'awww... is that Toby? I love that face... he looks like he's got a good food buzz goin on there! (and I'm gonna say STONER lol)


----------



## kady05

Celt said:


> In our society dogs come in contact with other dogs quite often, so I think that being DA makes a dog not safe to be around. After all, many of us have stated that we would do anything to break up a fight and while a pit may be less likely to redirect, they are just as likely to "bite down" by accident. It's been my belief that good owner=good dog, bad=bad, but several have "said" that they knew of well socialized, trained, etc dogs that became DA and that it was something that they expected would most likely happen because of the breed. In fact many of them have implied that almost all will become DA when they are "fully" grown that non DA dogs are the exception. And I'll probably be blasted for this but I think that a (unprovoked) HA dog that doesn't have a reason to be so (i.e. abused) should be put down and (sadly) very aggressive abused ones as well. To me, they are no different than a "keg" of unstablized nitro.


Just a question, but would you want to ban (or in your words "not have around") Sighthounds because they chased down and killed a rabbit, or other furry animal? Something they were bred to do? 

Dogs don't HAVE to come in contact with other dogs. Owners choose to put their dogs in those situations. Not all dogs can go to a pet store and behave, for example, so don't take them there. 

HA dogs SHOULD be euthanized, I won't blast you for that one.


----------



## CavePaws

kady05 said:


> Just a question, but would you want to ban (or in your words "not have around") Sighthounds because they chased down and killed a rabbit, or other furry animal? Something they were bred to do?
> 
> Dogs don't HAVE to come in contact with other dogs. Owners choose to put their dogs in those situations. Not all dogs can go to a pet store and behave, so don't take them there.
> 
> HA dogs SHOULD be euthanized, I won't blast you for that one.


Completely disagree. HA dogs should not be put in the position to attack a human. Every aggressive dog is different, there is only so much counter conditioning you can do with them sometimes to make them social. Just because they are HA doesn't mean they need to be pts. There are ways of managing this kind of thing, and frankly, if you're not willing to put the time and effort into owning a dog with aggressive tendancies then you don't need to own one. That simple. Yes, some dogs are beyond the point of rehabilitation...But we have behavior specialists in this world for a reason. The vast majority of HA dogs I see that come in are curable. At this point, I have only known of one dog who had to be pts because of their HA. That is out of HUNDREDS of HA dogs. 

I own a DA dog and this is one of the more manageable types of aggression, as i can very very easily control the situations my dog is put in. I don't put her in any situations where she is vulnerable to another off leash dog approaching her. I've learned, after years of counter conditioning, thousands of classes attended, she is not and never will be a dog's dog. Indi's aggression is not from nurture. No amount of nurture will help or take away the DA from her. It is genetic. Her prognosis is not good as far as a cure. But she is a severe case and the majority of the dogs who come in for aggression have a very good prognosis. I will say, that when the dog is predisposed genetically to aggression, it is a completely different ball game. There is very little one can do to "nurture" the fight response out of that dog.


----------



## kady05

CavePaws said:


> Completely disagree. HA dogs should not be put in the position to attack a human. Every aggressive dog is different, there is only so much counter conditioning you can do with them sometimes to make them social. Just because they are HA doesn't mean they need to be pts. There are ways of managing this kind of thing, and frankly, if you're not willing to put the time and effort into owning a dog with aggressive tendancies then you don't need to own one. That simple. Yes, some dogs are beyond the point of rehabilitation...But we have behavior specialists in this world for a reason. The vast majority of HA dogs I see that come in are curable. At this point, I have only known of one dog who had to be pts because of their HA. That is out of HUNDREDS of HA dogs.


Being a Bully breed owner, I have a very strong opinion about HA (most do). We do NOT need ANY HA Pit Bulls in the world. That just adds fuel to the medias fire, and it's an extremely undesirable breed trait. There are entirely too many nice, 100% stable dogs dying in shelters daily than to deal with truly HA dogs. A dog that has "aggressive tendencies" toward humans is a dog that will be on a one way trip to the vet if I owned it, plain and simple. 

I use my friends Lab (yup, a Lab) as an example for this sometimes.. this dog has attacked her twice, completely unprovoked. Dog was playing in the pool, she was standing talking to a friend, he ran out and grabbed her arm, leaving puncture wounds. She called me to ask what I would do, and I told her he would've been on the way to the vet right after that if he were mine.. but she wants to "help" him. Now she lives with a dog that she is terrified of, sounds lovely.


----------



## xellil

I had a friend with an American Eskimo who ended up totally isolated with no friends because her dog bit EVERYONE. Because she refused to go anywhere without her dog, and because no one would be around her because her dog would bite them, AND because she had been in trouble with the authorities on at least three occasions that I know of, she ended up just never leaving her house. 

I haven't been in touch with her in a few years. I know she loved her dog like a child, but that was just insane. It was one of the weirdest situations i have ever witnessed.

He bit her too, alot. it was like watching a battered wife. You never knew what the next injury would look like.


----------



## CavePaws

Well, I hope no HA dog ever comes into your hands. I see a whole lot of bias in your posts. You accept DA easily but for some reason HA is entirely unacceptable. You're in for a lawsuit either way if your dog attacks a dog or a human and hurts it. Please explain, what is this idea that you will only ever get any sort of public attention if it is an attack on a human? You could certainly get attention if they attack a dog. What is the difference other than the species the dog is aggressive towards? Either way it is a bad rap. A dog with any sort of aggression should not have been _intentionally _created in the first place. Period, end of story, should be a no brainer there. 

What degree of HA are you willing to accept and at what degree do you decide the dog needs to be put down. In my opinion, you are putting a blanket over all human aggression. No aggression is that simple and to say that ALL HA dogs should be put to sleep is simply ludacris in my opinion.

Sorry, but a DA pit is just as dangerous to living beings as an HA pit. A DA dog and an HA dog, at the same intensity level, can be just as dangerous as a pit.


----------



## CavePaws

xellil said:


> I had a friend with an American Eskimo who ended up totally isolated with no friends because her dog bit EVERYONE. Because she refused to go anywhere without her dog, and because no one would be around her because her dog would bite them, AND because she had been in trouble with the authorities on at least three occasions that I know of, she ended up just never leaving her house.
> 
> I haven't been in touch with her in a few years. I know she loved her dog like a child, but that was just insane. It was one of the weirdest situations i have ever witnessed.
> 
> He bit her too, alot. it was like watching a battered wife. You never knew what the next injury would look like.


There is a difference between HA dogs that can be managed and HA dogs that cannot be managed. I would not suggest anyone keep a dog around like that. Quality of life is a HUGE factor in my opinion when weighing the options of putting an animal to sleep. If complete and utter isolation is necessary for the animal to live; well, for an inherently social creature, what kind of life is that?


----------



## xellil

CavePaws said:


> There is a difference between HA dogs that can be managed and HA dogs that cannot be managed. I would not suggest anyone keep a dog around like that. Quality of life is a HUGE factor in my opinion when weighing the options of putting an animal to sleep. If complete and utter isolation is necessary for the animal to live; well, for an inherently social creature, what kind of life is that?


No, I agree with you - in my mind, aggression is aggression. This dog could probably have been "fixed" - it was a small dog and a human who had never had a dog before and had no clue - when she first adopted the dog, he wasn't aggressive. Somehow whatever she did/didn't do made him that way.

I guess i really think it goes back more to the people than some think. When people say "well they raised him perfectly from a baby, were a wonderful owner, and one day he just turned aggressive for no reason (genetics)" I am always a little skeptical. I don't think a dog just "turns" for no reason.


----------



## CavePaws

kady05 said:


> Being a Bully breed owner, I have a very strong opinion about HA (most do). We do NOT need ANY HA Pit Bulls in the world. That just adds fuel to the medias fire, and it's an extremely undesirable breed trait. There are entirely too many nice, 100% stable dogs dying in shelters daily than to deal with truly HA dogs. A dog that has "aggressive tendencies" toward humans is a dog that will be on a one way trip to the vet if I owned it, plain and simple.
> 
> I use my friends Lab (yup, a Lab) as an example for this sometimes.. this dog has attacked her twice, completely unprovoked. Dog was playing in the pool, she was standing talking to a friend, he ran out and grabbed her arm, leaving puncture wounds. She called me to ask what I would do, and I told her he would've been on the way to the vet right after that if he were mine.. but she wants to "help" him. Now she lives with a dog that she is terrified of, sounds lovely.


See, there is a difference between people like you and I. I am willing to give dogs multiple chances, I am patient with these animals. Your friend should be seeking professional counsel...Not counsel from someone who has no experience rehabilitating aggressive dogs. There are little things she probably did not notice that played a huge role in the dog attacking her. Two incidents with a puncture wound is not something I would put an animal to sleep over. Now, if this was happening on a regular basis, and the bites were more severe, then yes, I would consider it. But to say, "the dog should be put to sleep" with no counsel from a *professional *is simply not giving that animal a chance at life. There are people in this world who have aggressive tendencies. They have access to guns and knives and blunt force objects...Does that mean we should put every one of them on death row immediately? Maybe in your eyes. I think many people are way more dangerous than dogs.



Xelil, I think you are right in some ways. There are many medical reasons a dog can just turn on a person or dog, however. Most of these medical reasons can be solved with an RX. If a dog shows absolutely no signs of aggression for years, and then one day just snaps, then genetics most likely have absolutely nothing to do with it. Though there are always exceptions to the "general rule of thumb".


This is my DA dog. According to your belief, she should have been put down years ago. She was fear aggressive toward people. Thankfully, we worked through that issue and now she accepts the hand of almost any stranger - albeit showing many calming signals. Her DA has proven far more severe than the HA - something I was successfully, with a lot of patience, able to train out of her. 














Second pic is of her with her sister. She has about 10 dogs she gets along with in this world. Even if she had none she would still be my very alive Indi girl.


----------



## committed2excellence

Let me start by saying that I prefer the company of my dogs more than that of most people. All of my dogs do bitework and will start off as sporting dogs. At some point when they retire they become civil dogs. The control work required to responsibly own dogs likes these numbers in the hundreds and hundreds of hours. From puppies my dogs are trained to engage me and push me and at times will grab my hand or nip at me to get me going. This is a desirable trait and as I said I put in control work and dogs aren't allowed to act on their own unless there are thoroughly assessed threats present. As far as DA is concerned, I'm not one of the old school people who will say "An APBT with no DA isn't an APBT at all." I may have a dog who is DA, but when we are in public he better behave like he is running around the show or obedience ring and go for an Oscar for acting even if on the inside he wants to kill the dog in front of him. There is a huge difference between this and dog that just bites for the heck of it. If I am walking a DA dog and I have him on lead and another off lead dog rushes us and I am not able to act quickly enough and my dog hurts him, the fault is not mine. Depending on the breed of dog that I have I may be criticized. In a totally different set of circumstances, if I am out and about and a person approaches me in a non threatening manner and my dog decided to bite them, I will probably break his neck the first time. If it were to happen again, the needle comes out. Unprovoked HA isn't acceptable. I prefaced with saying that I prefer dogs to the company of most humans, but a bitten or dead dog does not equate to a bitten or dead person in this case.



CavePaws said:


> Completely disagree. HA dogs should not be put in the position to attack a human. Every aggressive dog is different, there is only so much counter conditioning you can do with them sometimes to make them social. Just because they are HA doesn't mean they need to be pts. There are ways of managing this kind of thing, and frankly, if you're not willing to put the time and effort into owning a dog with aggressive tendancies then you don't need to own one. That simple. Yes, some dogs are beyond the point of rehabilitation...But we have behavior specialists in this world for a reason. The vast majority of HA dogs I see that come in are curable. At this point, I have only known of one dog who had to be pts because of their HA. That is out of HUNDREDS of HA dogs.
> 
> I own a DA dog and this is one of the more manageable types of aggression, as i can very very easily control the situations my dog is put in. I don't put her in any situations where she is vulnerable to another off leash dog approaching her. I've learned, after years of counter conditioning, thousands of classes attended, she is not and never will be a dog's dog. Indi's aggression is not from nurture. No amount of nurture will help or take away the DA from her. It is genetic. Her prognosis is not good as far as a cure. But she is a severe case and the majority of the dogs who come in for aggression have a very good prognosis. I will say, that when the dog is predisposed genetically to aggression, it is a completely different ball game. There is very little one can do to "nurture" the fight response out of that dog.


----------



## CavePaws

Committed - I am not saying that they equate in any way, shape, or form. What I am saying is that both can equal a law suit. If my dog bites a person - yes there are repercussions, there are so many things to be considered. Was the bite provoked? How many times has this happened? What was the severity of the bite? A dog who mauls a person is going to be put to sleep. A dog who mauls another dog; probably not, but there is most likely a law suit involved. There are so many factors to this, you have to consider them all before saying that a dog should be pts. I don't take euthanasia lightly. There are too many dogs in this world with behavioral issues with too few of resources made to them. A minor bite is unacceptable, but workable, in my opinion. A bite causing hundreds of stitches, well, in this case, there is a very hefty reason to consider euthanasia. 

EDA: When I said "hefty" I did mean at the top of the list, needs to be done. In a case where hundreds of stitches need to be used, then the dog has no other option really.


----------



## committed2excellence

WOW!!! TWO incidents with puncture wounds and you would still be in the game??? You should come decoy for us if you like getting bitten that much. What you are forgetting is that the best animal behavioralist on the planet may NOT be able to rehab some dogs and they may need to be put down, irrespective of how they were raised. As for you trying to rationalize why the dog did what they did, I'm not drinking the Kool Aid. Stable dogs that have been exposed situationally and socialized properly don't attack people "cause they feel like it." Of course people are more dangerous than dogs. They can drive cars and make bombs. They also have free will and most can read and understand language and spit it back out better than most dogs.



CavePaws said:


> See, there is a difference between people like you and I. I am willing to give dogs multiple chances, I am patient with these animals. Your friend should be seeking professional counsel...Not counsel from someone who has no experience rehabilitating aggressive dogs. There are little things she probably did not notice that played a huge role in the dog attacking her. Two incidents with a puncture wound is not something I would put an animal to sleep over. Now, if this was happening on a regular basis, and the bites were more severe, then yes, I would consider it. But to say, "the dog should be put to sleep" with no counsel from a *professional *is simply not giving that animal a chance at life. There are people in this world who have aggressive tendencies. They have access to guns and knives and blunt force objects...Does that mean we should put every one of them on death row immediately? Maybe in your eyes. I think many people are way more dangerous than dogs.
> 
> 
> 
> Xelil, I think you are right in some ways. There are many medical reasons a dog can just turn on a person or dog, however. Most of these medical reasons can be solved with an RX. If a dog shows absolutely no signs of aggression for years, and then one day just snaps, then genetics most likely have absolutely nothing to do with it. Though there are always exceptions to the "general rule of thumb".
> 
> 
> This is my DA dog. According to your belief, she should have been put down years ago. She was fear aggressive toward people. Thankfully, we worked through that issue and now she accepts the hand of almost any stranger - albeit showing many calming signals. Her DA has proven far more severe than the HA - something I was successfully, with a lot of patience, able to train out of her.
> View attachment 4535
> View attachment 4536
> 
> 
> Second pic is of her with her sister. She has about 10 dogs she gets along with in this world. Even if she had none she would still be my very alive Indi girl.


----------



## CavePaws

committed2excellence said:


> WOW!!! TWO incidents with puncture wounds and you would still be in the game??? You should come decoy for us if you like getting bitten that much. What you are forgetting is that the best animal behavioralist on the planet may NOT be able to rehab some dogs and they may need to be put down, irrespective of how they were raised. As for you trying to rationalize why the dog did what they did, I'm not drinking the Kool Aid. Stable dogs that have been exposed situationally and socialized properly don't attack people "cause they feel like it." Of course people are more dangerous than dogs. They can drive cars and make bombs. They also have free will and most can read and understand language and spit it back out better than most dogs.


Funny you assume I like being bitten. No, I don't like being bitten and have only been bitten a few times. Why? I can read a dogs body language very well, and don't often give them the opportunity to nail me. I am very willing to give animals who have no control over their fate many chances at life. If I recommended to every owner who comes in with puncture wounds (which can range from extremely minor to severe) then I would have A LOT of dead dogs on my hands. Do I want that? Absolutely not. Do I want every family who comes to me for advice to be grieving over a lost friend? No. Like I said, there are varying degrees of severity here and a lot of options for these degrees - some degrees have no options.


----------



## committed2excellence

Ok. That sounds a little more reasonable. It seemed as if you were saying that dogs needed unlimited "get out of jail free cards." I can agree with you BUT, the onus always falls on the handler or owner. Example, if you have a skittish rescue dog who was beaten and I come over to your home and start playing rough with the dog and get bitten, it's your fault for not explaining the situation to me. However, I would understand not putting her down. Once you step in to the public with said dog, you have to be willing to take what you get. I think we are a little closer in our thinking than I believed when I read your original post. I'm just a bit conscious of scars and don't enjoy getting bitten too much these days. It takes too long for the scars to heal.


CavePaws said:


> Committed - I am not saying that they equate in any way, shape, or form. What I am saying is that both can equal a law suit. If my dog bites a person - yes there are repercussions, there are so many things to be considered. Was the bite provoked? How many times has this happened? What was the severity of the bite? A dog who mauls a person is going to be put to sleep. A dog who mauls another dog; probably not, but there is most likely a law suit involved. There are so many factors to this, you have to consider them all before saying that a dog should be pts. I don't take euthanasia lightly. There are too many dogs in this world with behavioral issues with too few of resources made to them. A minor bite is unacceptable, but workable, in my opinion. A bite causing hundreds of stitches, well, in this case, there is a very hefty reason to consider euthanasia.
> 
> EDA: When I said "hefty" I did mean at the top of the list, needs to be done. In a case where hundreds of stitches need to be used, then the dog has no other option really.


----------



## committed2excellence

The bitework comment was my attempt at levity. As I said in my last I think we are a little closer in our beliefs. I do a lot of rescue and see dogs with issues. I also believe that there are specific protocols that should be undertaken with these animals so that they can have fulfilling lives



CavePaws said:


> Funny you assume I like being bitten. No, I don't like being bitten and have only been bitten a few times. Why? I can read a dogs body language very well, and don't often give them the opportunity to nail me. I am very willing to give animals who have no control over their fate many chances at life. If I recommended to every owner who comes in with puncture wounds (which can range from extremely minor to severe) then I would have A LOT of dead dogs on my hands. Do I want that? Absolutely not. Do I want every family who comes to me for advice to be grieving over a lost friend? No. Like I said, there are varying degrees of severity here and a lot of options for these degrees - some degrees have no options.


----------



## xellil

I went alot of my life thinking if a dog bit a person, that dog had to be put down period.

I was very, very wrong. i put down one of my dogs one time for biting someone and I regret it to this day.


----------



## Celt

There's a reason sight hounds are not to be off leash or allowed to play with "smaller" critters that being said it is not often that a sighthound comes in contact with rabbits just out and about. True, a DA dog should be kept away from areas that are frequented by other dogs but it is extremely difficult to prevent all encounters without "locking" the poor DA dog away. I agree that any dog can become DA even with the best of "raising" but the message from many of the "pit" posters is that you should expect a pit bull to become DA. In the majority of breeds, you don't expect it, it's more an exception to the rule, not the rule. I'm not saying that I agree with banning breeds but with what I'm "hearing" I can understand why people who don't know/care about dogs would "jump on the bandwagon".
On HA dogs, I'm sorry but if a dog bites unprovoked, it is a danger that needs to be removed. I know that "abused" dogs can be "rehabilitated" but to be honest I would never truely trust it. Imo, a DA dog killing another dog is distressing but a HA dog mutilating a child is a tragedy. And if the truely horrifying happens, and a HA dog kills a person, the owner can be prosecuted especially if they knew their dog was HA. 
I think if this conversation continues that it should be "broken off" and posted as a different thread.


----------



## committed2excellence

Growing up I did as well. As you learn more about behavior and animals in general you open yourself up to other options. When you start working with Malinois and high drive APBTS, everything you ever learned gets thrown out the window. lol



xellil said:


> I went alot of my life thinking if a dog bit a person, that dog had to be put down period.
> 
> I was very, very wrong. i put down one of my dogs one time for biting someone and I regret it to this day.


----------



## CavePaws

I agree committed. I didn't think we were too different in our ideas from your post. 

I'm actually very interested in protection work and the like. None of my dogs have the temperament so I have never had the opportunity. I'm 5'0 and 110 lbs...I'd get knocked over by any of those dogs charging at me and grabbing my arm. At the same time, I would love to have a personal protection dog as I am so small...


----------



## Oso

Celt said:


> There's a reason sight hounds are not to be off leash or allowed to play with "smaller" critters that being said it is not often that a sighthound comes in contact with rabbits just out and about. True, a DA dog should be kept away from areas that are frequented by other dogs but it is extremely difficult to prevent all encounters without "locking" the poor DA dog away. I agree that any dog can become DA even with the best of "raising" but the message from many of the "pit" posters is that you should expect a pit bull to become DA. In the majority of breeds, you don't expect it, it's more an exception to the rule, not the rule. I'm not saying that I agree with banning breeds but with what I'm "hearing" I can understand why people who don't know/care about dogs would "jump on the bandwagon".
> On HA dogs, I'm sorry but if a dog bites unprovoked, it is a danger that needs to be removed. I know that "abused" dogs can be "rehabilitated" but to be honest I would never truely trust it. Imo, a DA dog killing another dog is distressing but a HA dog mutilating a child is a tragedy. And if the truely horrifying happens, and a HA dog kills a person, the owner can be prosecuted especially if they knew their dog was HA.
> I think if this conversation continues that it should be "broken off" and posted as a different thread.




Uhm its all about training your DA dog to leave other dogs alone. My dog is seriously DA and I live in a condo with a couple hundred untis and run into dogs every time I am outside. My dog knows that he is out to do his business and work, and I dont walk him right up nose to nose with peoples dogs, no matter how nice he is acting. Its all about being a good owner. 
I dont put him into a situation where he can fail. I know he doesnt like other dogs, big or small. I dont let him get near them and if I do have to pass them in a hallway, he is focused on me and gets a firm "leave it" 

I dont expect ALL pit bull typed dogs to become DA, but realistic bully breed owners know its a possibility, just like not all sight hounds will hunt rabbits, but its a high possibility. You just have to take proper precautionary, like you dont let your dog off lead around peoples pet rabbits right? I dont let my dog off lead near peoples pet dogs. Same thing.

I think the reason bully breed owners think ALL HA bully breed dogs should be put down, is because thats so highly out of the standard for the dog. Its that faulty that no amount of rehabilitation should be tried, IMO, because that dog can kill someone in two seconds or do so much more damage per second compared to any other another breed. 

I dont ever plan on locking my DA dog away, he gets on fine being in public, hell I even take him to pet stores, because I as a good bully breed owner dont set him up to fail. If I for one second thought something may happen by me taking him somewhere, I wouldnt take him. Its all about training in my opinion when dealing with a DA dog, but you cant train out the DA you can only teach him to focus on you and leave the things he wants to go after alone.


----------



## CavePaws

Celt- my DA pup goes to agility trials. Sometimes the aisles are so crowded I carry her through them. I try to set her up for success, just because she wants to go at it with most other dogs does not mean I cannot take her to controlled environments. I put a gentle leader on her, have a crate cover and am good to go. in a lot of dog sports DA is not uncommon and most people are very aware of their own dogs behavior. I also take Indi downtown with me on the weekends, when lots of people are out with their leashed dogs too. She is controllable, not curable. I don't think it would be fair to put her in an uncontrolled situation.

I've taken to actually just picking her up when dogs somehow out of the blue come running at us off leash.


----------



## DoglovingSenior

xellil said:


> Somehow whatever she did/didn't do made him that way.
> I guess i really think it goes back more to the people than some think. When people say "well they raised him perfectly from a baby, were a wonderful owner, and one day he just turned aggressive for no reason (genetics)" I am always a little skeptical. I don't think a dog just "turns" for no reason.


 Disagree with this. Just as there are sometimes rotten parents of great kids; there are rotten kids with great parents. There are crazy dogs just like there are crazy people. The reason for the dogs "turning" may not be obvious until after the necropsy.


----------



## DoglovingSenior

I had two of my dogs bite me at the same time. It was MY fault as they were about to go at each other (one had a bone in his mouth) I was too busy talking on the phone & rather than dropping it on the floor and grabbing each dog or shouting "leave it!" ---you won't believe this next. I pushed my jeans clad leg between them just as they were going for each other. So, at 53 I was bitten for the first time in my life & screamed "Bloody Murder". They both looked SO crestfallen when I screamed, that I felt sorry for them once the pain diminished. That crap HURTS!

Now, had circumstances been different and one had purposely attacked me, sorry-I will not live with an animal that I cannot trust or am afraid of. He/she would be sent to the bridge. In my still loving arms.


----------



## Chocx2

Great looking dogs, pics I mean.
I have labs mostly, the only time there is a fight is when, the big female , wants to let the other know she is first in line in charge behind me? Don't know if thats understandable?
I was taught by my friend, who is a vet that you have to show dominance over all and that is done when they are pups. I have an Aussie that I had to work with a lot when he was a pup. Worked for my dogs but don't know about more aggressive breeds?


----------



## kady05

CavePaws said:


> Well, I hope no HA dog ever comes into your hands. I see a whole lot of bias in your posts. You accept DA easily but for some reason HA is entirely unacceptable. *Because DA is a breed trait of the APBT. Just like retrieving is a breed trait of a Lab, or herding things is breed trait of a Border Collie. HA is NOT a desired breed trait.* You're in for a lawsuit either way if your dog attacks a dog or a human and hurts it. Please explain, what is this idea that you will only ever get any sort of public attention if it is an attack on a human? *I never said that.. of course some dog on dog fights get media attention. But you can bet it'll be a lot less than if a dog attacks a human!* You could certainly get attention if they attack a dog. What is the difference other than the species the dog is aggressive towards? Either way it is a bad rap. A dog with any sort of aggression should not have been _intentionally _created in the first place. Period, end of story, should be a no brainer there.
> 
> What degree of HA are you willing to accept and at what degree do you decide the dog needs to be put down. In my opinion, you are putting a blanket over all human aggression. No aggression is that simple and to say that ALL HA dogs should be put to sleep is simply ludacris in my opinion. *A dog that bites me unprovoked it going to be PTS. I'm not saying high drive dogs who might give you a little nip when they're working should be PTS. I've worked with Malinois who were used by police & military, it's pretty much a given that they're going to tag you at some point. THAT is not HA.*
> 
> Sorry, but a DA pit is just as dangerous to living beings as an HA pit. A DA dog and an HA dog, at the same intensity level, can be just as dangerous as a pit.





CavePaws said:


> See, there is a difference between people like you and I. I am willing to give dogs multiple chances, I am patient with these animals. *I'm willing to give them multiple chances with say, learning something in OB and not doing it perfect. But biting humans? Nope.* Your friend should be seeking professional counsel...Not counsel from someone who has no experience rehabilitating aggressive dogs. *She did. Other professionals told her the same thing, guess I should've mentioned that. She called me after the fact, thinking I'd tell her differently.* There are little things she probably did not notice that played a huge role in the dog attacking her. Two incidents with a puncture wound is not something I would put an animal to sleep over. *Two incidents of puncture wounds that required hospital visits wouldn't make you think "Hey, maybe this dog shouldn't be here anymore"? I'm not going to live with a dog that bites me. Dogs are companions, they shouldn't be something the owner is afraid of.* Now, if this was happening on a regular basis, and the bites were more severe, then yes, I would consider it. But to say, "the dog should be put to sleep" with no counsel from a *professional *is simply not giving that animal a chance at life. There are people in this world who have aggressive tendencies. They have access to guns and knives and blunt force objects...Does that mean we should put every one of them on death row immediately? Maybe in your eyes. I think many people are way more dangerous than dogs. *Agreed there.*


My replies in bold.


----------



## xellil

DoglovingSenior said:


> Disagree with this. Just as there are sometimes rotten parents of great kids; there are rotten kids with great parents. There are crazy dogs just like there are crazy people. The reason for the dogs "turning" may not be obvious until after the necropsy.


Yes, i realize I am probably in the minority.

I was lucky enough to live alot of my life with dogs in what I consider a good environment for them - way out in the middle of nowhere, with alot of dogs in a pack. I never had an aggressive dog, even though there were large males, unneutered of all breeds, all over the place. We rarely saw other dogs or people but when we did they reacted as expected.

It feels very unnatural to me, this living in a house with a yard,, on a leash. I can't help but feel the dogs I have today are not nearly as happy as the dogs i used to have, acting exactly as they pleased most of the time. I didn't understand dog training at all, but I ran every day with my dogs and spent all my time with them. We just never had aggression or fear or any of the problems I had now.

When i got Rebel we lived in the city. I had to worry about so much stuff because he was neurotic and nutso when I got him BECAUSE of isolation from people and other dogs - was he aggressive, would he run off, how do I get him exercise, etc etc. Twenty years ago I would have just thrown him in with the other dogs and not thought twice about it.

Not discounting that breeding can make a crazy dog - but I just have a hard time believing they are ok for a long time and then go bad for no reason.


----------



## CavePaws

There are various problems which can cause a dog to just "snap". Low thyroid is a more common one - and it isn't particularly common in general for a health issue to be causing sudden attacks. 

Kady - Of course it would make me think, "Hey, maybe this dog should not be with her" or "Hey, maybe this is not the right situation for this person or dog" Did she exhaust all possible health issues at a vet? What was the general consensus made by the behaviorists as to why the dog was acting out? I'm very curious to hear their thoughts on why this dog in particular was so bad it needed to be put down. The top behaviorist in this world right now, Ian Dunbar, at one of his seminars spoke on the worst DA dog he had ever seen in his career. It was a Great Dane who had literally bitten through the chest of a golden retriever. A fatal attack. This dog was not put to sleep, but rehabilitated. Now, if the intensity of such an attack was made upon a human, you bet, my number one suggestion for that person would be to put the dog to sleep. A golden retriever is bigger than a lot of children. I don't think there are many people in this world with the strength to properly control a severely HA great dane. All in all, it depends on the particular dog and that dogs intensity level. I am in no way saying that all dogs can be rehabilitated - and as I said, a lot of people simply cannot handle aggressive dogs, in which case, if the dog is a candidate for rehabilitation, then it should be put in the hands of someone who knows what they are doing and can work with that dog every day. Aggression can take many years to fix. There is rarely a simple solution. If you don't have the patience or power to rehabilitate the dog, then it does not belong with you and maybe in that particular case euthanasia is the only humane option.

A blanket statement that all HA dogs should be put to sleep is simply ridiculous.

In the same sense, to me, it is completely ridiculous to say that because HA is not in the "breed standard" for a pitbull then the dog should be pts. So, with your logic, every dog that does not match the breed standard in any way should be culled. So, if a pitbull is not dog aggressive, in your opinion it does not match the breed standard and needs to be put down. I think it is people like you who are actually truly keeping this breed stereotype of aggression in pitbulls very alive.


----------



## xellil

Dog aggression shouldn't be a breed standard for a pit bull. It's why they are in so much trouble. I didn't realize it was some kind of a requirement.

If a trait in a dog is causing so many of them to suffer, that trait should be removed.


----------



## xellil

CavePaws said:


> There are various problems which can cause a dog to just "snap". Low thyroid is a more common one - and it isn't particularly common in general for a health issue to be causing sudden attacks.


I firmly believe that there is always a reason. People say how great they are to their dogs and it's hard to refute because we don't live in the house where the dog was raised. I could say to everyone how well I treat my dog and be doing something to him, even in good faith, that is a stressor. Or I haven't seen the signs that have been there all along. Personally, I think crating a dog is a stressor but almost no one agrees with me.

Or like you say, something physical.

There are people who believe that if a Doberman doesn't have a bump on the top of his head his brain will swell and, having no room, will make him "snap" and starting biting people's faces off. That explanation sounds as stupid to me as people saying a dog just turned one day.

If we caused the problem (and I think it's almost always our fault) we can, in most cases, reverse it - but someone like me, just an average dog owner with no special skills, probably won't be able to do it.


----------



## Donna Little

@CavePaws: I think what Kady is saying is that if a Pitbull shows itself to be HA (unprovoked) then it's definitely a dangerous dog that will only add to the already horrible reputation these fantastic dogs have. And that anyone passionate about the breed understands that the vast majority of Pitbulls would never be aggressive toward a human and if they are then they have *something* wrong. (Bad genetics, an undetected illness, poor socialization, something...) There are just toooo many great Pitbulls sitting on death row needing homes that if you come across one that seems to be wired wrong and is just innately HA, for the good of everyone, (including the dog) that dog probably needs to be put down. Of course there are varying degrees to consider so I don't think Kady would put a Pitbull down if there was a provoked bite. If your dog was protecting you from danger and went for someone that's not HA imo. That's a different catagory. 
As far as DA in Pitbulls, once again I think Kady is saying that's it's to be expected so be prepared in the event your dog gets into a situation. Or better yet keep your dog out of sticky situations if you know they have a problem with DA. It is part of their genetic makeup so you just have to be on top of things. 
Sorry for speaking for you Kady, if I'm not understanding what you're saying let me know. I'm not trying to get in the middle of your convo, just thought it was being misunderstood a little.
A couple of my small dogs would bite and I know that so I don't set them up for failure or myself for a lawsuit and am very careful with them. I owned a very protective English Setter for 7 yrs and I knew to also be careful with him. He bit one person in 7 yrs and it was because they came in my fence when no one was home. Dumb move on their part and they got nailed before they even had the gate closed behind them. Thank goodness they didn't get all the way in and end up getting attacked. I would never have put him down because he was protective. I knew his background and it was horrible. He was almost dead when I got him. I could take him off of our property and he walked on a leash like a perfect gentleman and I even took him to the groomer regularly and he was great. But if he perceived any danger to me or his property he was going to bite. Kept a lot of family from visiting too often though and sometimes that's a very good thing....:amen:


----------



## kady05

CavePaws said:


> There are various problems which can cause a dog to just "snap". Low thyroid is a more common one - and it isn't particularly common in general for a health issue to be causing sudden attacks.
> 
> Kady - Of course it would make me think, "Hey, maybe this dog should not be with her" or "Hey, maybe this is not the right situation for this person or dog" Did she exhaust all possible health issues at a vet? What was the general consensus made by the behaviorists as to why the dog was acting out? I'm very curious to hear their thoughts on why this dog in particular was so bad it needed to be put down. The top behaviorist in this world right now, Ian Dunbar, at one of his seminars spoke on the worst DA dog he had ever seen in his career. It was a Great Dane who had literally bitten through the chest of a golden retriever. A fatal attack. This dog was not put to sleep, but rehabilitated. Now, if the intensity of such an attack was made upon a human, you bet, my number one suggestion for that person would be to put the dog to sleep. A golden retriever is bigger than a lot of children. I don't think there are many people in this world with the strength to properly control a severely HA great dane. All in all, it depends on the particular dog and that dogs intensity level. I am in no way saying that all dogs can be rehabilitated - and as I said, a lot of people simply cannot handle aggressive dogs, in which case, if the dog is a candidate for rehabilitation, then it should be put in the hands of someone who knows what they are doing and can work with that dog every day. Aggression can take many years to fix. There is rarely a simple solution. If you don't have the patience or power to rehabilitate the dog, then it does not belong with you and maybe in that particular case euthanasia is the only humane option.
> 
> A blanket statement that all HA dogs should be put to sleep is simply ridiculous.
> 
> In the same sense, to me, it is completely ridiculous to say that because HA is not in the "breed standard" for a pitbull then the dog should be pts. So, with your logic, every dog that does not match the breed standard in any way should be culled. So, if a pitbull is not dog aggressive, in your opinion it does not match the breed standard and needs to be put down. I think it is people like you who are actually truly keeping this breed stereotype of aggression in pitbulls very alive.


Yes, dog was examined by a vet, other than hip dysplasia, nothing was found that would scream "This dog is going to attack people." Dog is still alive, btw.

HA dogs being PTS might be a ridiculous statement to YOU, but it's not to me. Everyone has different opinions. I personally think there are too many 100% stable, would never bite a human dogs dying than to deal with the truly HA ones. FWIW, I photograph shelter dogs, so I see first hand what comes in to the shelter system. I feel that time should be spent adopting out the stable dogs vs. spending months, years, etc. trying to "rehab" an HA one.

Do you think we should allow HA Pit Bulls (or even other breeds, but since we're on the Pit Bull topic again..) to continue being adopted out? I hope not. Most breed specific rescues won't even touch a dog that has shown HA toward humans, simply because it's entirely too risky to put that dog into a home. You're taking my statement of "it's not an acceptable breed trait" WAY too seriously. Obviously I'm not saying if there is a Lab that doesn't retrieve, that it should be put down, c'mon now. PBRC has a good article on DA: Pit Bull Rescue Central

And yeah, I'm the one fueling the stereotype.. with my 3 dogs who show no DA, all are CGC's, and one is a working therapy dog. IF my dogs did decide to one day hate each other, I am fully prepared to deal with that. Crating & rotating isn't that difficult. Just because I'm educated on the breed and accept that DA is a common breed trait, and not wearing rose colored glasses doesn't mean I'm fueling any stereotype. 



xellil said:


> Dog aggression shouldn't be a breed standard for a pit bull. It's why they are in so much trouble. I didn't realize it was some kind of a requirement.
> 
> If a trait in a dog is causing so many of them to suffer, that trait should be removed.


DA isn't why Pit Bulls are in trouble. Irresponsible owners are. Just like Rottie's were in trouble years back, and Dobe's. Now Pit Bulls are the "target" of wannabe thugs who think it's cool to own one. 



Donna Little said:


> @CavePaws: I think what Kady is saying is that if a Pitbull shows itself to be HA (unprovoked) then it's definitely a dangerous dog that will only add to the already horrible reputation these fantastic dogs have. And that anyone passionate about the breed understands that the vast majority of Pitbulls would never be aggressive toward a human and if they are then they have *something* wrong. (Bad genetics, an undetected illness, poor socialization, something...) There are just toooo many great Pitbulls sitting on death row needing homes that if you come across one that seems to be wired wrong and is just innately HA, for the good of everyone, (including the dog) that dog probably needs to be put down. Of course there are varying degrees to consider so I don't think Kady would put a Pitbull down if there was a provoked bite. If your dog was protecting you from danger and went for someone that's not HA imo. That's a different catagory.
> As far as DA in Pitbulls, once again I think Kady is saying that's it's to be expected so be prepared in the event your dog gets into a situation. Or better yet keep your dog out of sticky situations if you know they have a problem with DA. It is part of their genetic makeup so you just have to be on top of things.
> Sorry for speaking for you Kady, if I'm not understanding what you're saying let me know. I'm not trying to get in the middle of your convo, just thought it was being misunderstood a little.


It's okay, you got it!


----------



## xellil

kady05 said:


> DA isn't why Pit Bulls are in trouble. Irresponsible owners are. Just like Rottie's were in trouble years back, and Dobe's. Now Pit Bulls are the "target" of wannabe thugs who think it's cool to own one.


If they couldn't get them to fight each other, they wouldn't fight them. There are irresponsible owners with every breed - but not every breed is forced to fight each other to the death on a regular basis. And if they don't, THEN they are tortured and killed.

Dobies and rottweilers hadve a bad reputation, but I don't think anything that's risen to the level of what people do to pit bulls - and it's because they are so willing to fight other dogs. Breed that out and there is no reason to fight them.


----------



## kady05

xellil said:


> If they couldn't get them to fight each other, they wouldn't fight them. There are irresponsible owners with every breed - but not every breed is forced to fight each other to the death on a regular basis. And if they don't, THEN they are tortured and killed.
> 
> Dobies and rottweilers hadve a bad reputation, but I don't think anything that's risen to the level of what people do to pit bulls - and it's because they are so willing to fight other dogs. Breed that out and there is no reason to fight them.


Oy vey.. I'm not going to touch that.


----------



## lauren43

xellil said:


> Dobies and rottweilers hadve a bad reputation, but I don't think anything that's risen to the level of what people do to pit bulls - and it's because they are so willing to fight other dogs. Breed that out and there is no reason to fight them.


I agree with the reputation thing. I think for pits its actually been longer than any other breed.

As for the fighting...in a litter of 11, one would be lucky to get one or two good fighters. The only reason pits ever make good fighters is their willingness to make their owners happy. Most do not show their fighting potential until they are fully matured around 2 years old...but if they don't show potential young they are generally culled. It is not a guaranteed trait, nor is it acceptable. It is just something to be aware of when you own a bully breed.


----------



## CorgiPaws

I'm on the road, so gotta make it quick. 

1. DA dogs do not need to be put to sleep. That's Freaking insane. DA dogs are not a danger to society, and its not hard AT ALL to manage. Leash your dog in public, don't allow them to approach other dogs. Put them in a sit/focus as other dogs pass, and keep them close. Don't go to dog parks or pet stores. Problem solved. 

2. HA dogs, IMO should not be in public. Sorry CavePaws, I just disagree on this one. I don't think that dogs who have shown potential to be aggressive towards people should be put in a situation that opens the possibility again. I just don't. There are so many non HA dogs dying in shelters for me to give a HA dog more than two chances, especially if unprovoked.

3. Pits are not genetically predisposed to HA. Most of the horror stories on the news are about them attacking people, not dogs. Even moreso, I'd say more than 50% of the time its not really a pit to begin with. Journalists are genetically predisposed to story fabrication. Lol

4. Yes, dogs "raised right" can become aggressive. My mom is the nicest person ever. Doesn't mean I am. Dogs are creatures with distinct personalities much like people. There is a balance of nature and nurture, and I do not believe that any dogs personality is 100% determined by one over the other. You can not guarantee a pit to not be DA by nurture only any more than you can come "teach" Braxton to be high strung and bouncy. That would just annoy you, and him too. 

5. Claiming pits predisposition to DA to be grounds for BSL doesn't even make sense. Leash them. Problem solved. Not all dogs NEED to be around other dogs. Mine go to the dog parks and have fun, but is it a necessity? No. It's not. Period. I don't think its fair to constantly crate and rotate, perhaps I will get flamed for that, but in single dog homes, a DA dog can be the best family pet of all time, with zero incidents.

6. Some pit breeders DO strive to not breed DA dogs. These breeders will never end put fighting because most people big into the "sport" of dog fighting are also involved in breeding and produce their own fighting dogs. Those people will always exist. More laws put on breeding don't really solve anything. The "bad" people still break them. Also, when you try to breed a trait out of a very heavily-effected breed, you almost always end up breeding in one or MORE other issues. With DA being one of the most manageable generally "undesirable" behavior traits there are.... I think they should leave it alone.


----------



## GoingPostal

xellil said:


> If they couldn't get them to fight each other, they wouldn't fight them. There are irresponsible owners with every breed - but not every breed is forced to fight each other to the death on a regular basis. And if they don't, THEN they are tortured and killed.
> 
> Dobies and rottweilers hadve a bad reputation, but I don't think anything that's risen to the level of what people do to pit bulls - and it's because they are so willing to fight other dogs. Breed that out and there is no reason to fight them.


Lol, sure just breed out dog aggression. Are you ignoring the fact that would completely change the breed and that it doesn't work, Amstaffs are show bred APBT, guess what, they still have dog aggression, along with a totally different look and increased health issues, way to go! How about the fact that dog fighting has nothing to do with why the breed is in trouble today, that's poor breeding and irresponsible owners. Dog fighting went on for a long time legally and the breed wasn't in the crapper then, no pit bull attacks on people left and right, heck not that many dog on dog attacks because people kept them contained properly. Now you have a million idiots breeding oversized HA "pit bulls" and selling them to joe blow who thinks hugs and kisses will train their dog to love everything and bring it to dog parks and off leash areas, or maybe they go to more fools who just want a guard dog to tie up in the backyard and feed sometimes. Either way, doesn't end well most of the time. 

As far as DA vs. HA, personally I wouldn't keep a dog alive that I thought was a danger to people, don't see any reason at all to do that. DA is pretty manageable, I have one DA dog and he doesn't get treated any different than the other two when we are out, we don't say "hi" to strange dogs, we don't go to dog parks and if a loose dog runs up at me it's going to get kicked in the face or maced, there's a leash law for a reason and if you aren't following it your dog might get hurt, maybe by another dog, maybe by a car. Same crap happens with loose cats, they are fighting all the time around here but you don't see anyone screaming for all those vicious cat and small animal aggressive kitties to be killed before they turn on people. People act like dog on dog aggression is completely unacceptable, gotta wonder if they've ever spent time around another species.


----------



## xellil

Why do people think it's a bad idea to breed dog aggression out? As Dr. Phil says - how's that working for you?

Pit bulls were bred to bait bulls, not other dogs. They only started fighting each other when bull baiting was outlawed. Sometime in the 1800s I think.

it's just gotten out of control. So people can't make them fight bulls any more, they turn them on each other. And that's not a trait that's bad?

I would suggest that if you bred it out of them, you would have what a pit bull was MEANT to be.


----------



## CorgiPaws

xellil said:


> Why do people think it's a bad idea to breed dog aggression out? As Dr. Phil says - how's that working for you?
> 
> Pit bulls were bred to bait bulls, not other dogs. They only started fighting each other when bull baiting was outlawed. Sometime in the 1800s I think.
> 
> it's just gotten out of control. So people can't make them fight bulls any more, they turn them on each other. And that's not a trait that's bad?
> 
> I would suggest that if you bred it out of them, you would have what a pit bull was MEANT to be.


No, you'd have what YOU think you WANT them to be. 

When you attempt to breed a trait out of a heavily effected breed you end up breeding in other problems be it behavior or health. 

Since DA is very EASILY managed, and does not effect the dogs ability to be a wonderful healthy companion, I say leave well enough alone.


----------



## xellil

They weren't aggressive to each other originally. i suspect they had to work together to do their jobs, not be at odds with each other. 

There is no legitimate reason for dogs to attack each other except for human sport.

You can still have tenacity, strength, and all the other traits. Someone bred dog aggression INTO them when they didn't start out that way. 

It's only easily managed if people put forth the effort. Way too many people encourage it, not try to manage it. It's also the reason pit bulls are being euthanized at a higher rate than other dogs, and banned in some places, and vilified from all quarters. I suspect if they had the choice, they would choose to live peacefully with both people and other dogs.

Of course, it won't happen. Things won't get better for this wonderful breed. Eventually, they'll be banned completely or with so much legislation against them no one will be able to afford to have one. 

But, we can take comfort that they are not bred to be non-aggressive to other dogs. They will be just like everyone likes them to be.


----------



## kady05

xellil said:


> They weren't aggressive to each other originally. i suspect they had to work together to do their jobs, not be at odds with each other.
> 
> There is no legitimate reason for dogs to attack each other except for human sport.
> 
> You can still have tenacity, strength, and all the other traits. Someone bred dog aggression INTO them when they didn't start out that way.
> 
> It's only easily managed if people put forth the effort. Way too many people encourage it, not try to manage it. It's also the reason pit bulls are being euthanized at a higher rate than other dogs, and banned in some places, and vilified from all quarters. I suspect if they had the choice, they would choose to live peacefully with both people and other dogs.
> 
> Of course, it won't happen. Things won't get better for this wonderful breed. Eventually, they'll be banned completely or with so much legislation against them no one will be able to afford to have one.
> 
> But, we can take comfort that they are not bred to be non-aggressive to other dogs. They will be just like everyone likes them to be.


Wow, hello negativity!

Pit Bulls aren't being banned for being DA. They're being banned because people think they're big bad baby killers. And like someone else said, half the time when you see "Pit Bull attack" on TV, it's not even a Pit Bull.

Do you really think that the same people who are causing the Pit Bull overpopulation problem (which is why they're all over the news, being owned by idiots, etc.) are going to try to breed out DA? No. They're not breeding for any specific traits, they're just breeding to breed and make money.


----------



## Oso

xellil said:


> Why do people think it's a bad idea to breed dog aggression out? As Dr. Phil says - how's that working for you?
> 
> Pit bulls were bred to bait bulls, not other dogs. They only started fighting each other when bull baiting was outlawed. Sometime in the 1800s I think.
> 
> it's just gotten out of control. So people can't make them fight bulls any more, they turn them on each other. And that's not a trait that's bad?
> 
> I would suggest that if you bred it out of them, you would have what a pit bull was MEANT to be.




Its not a bad idea, just damn near impossible. Again look at Amstaffs, been bred for a long long long time away from DA and guess what, they are still predisposed to DA.

No, pit bulls WERE NOT bred to bait bulls. Those are bull dogs and other terrier mixes. Pit Bulls were only created after the SBT was brought over to America, and the SBT was a fighting dog as well. Far off form the bull baiting dogs of yester years.

Pit Bulls were not meant to be anything other than a dog on dog combat gladiator, take that heart and soul out of the dog and you have nothing remotely like a pit bull. 
Again they have been trying for a long time to get Amstaffs completely away from DA, see how thats working for them? Why breed something out that can be controlled with simple training and exercise?


----------



## xellil

It is frustrating. These dogs have a reputation that may never recover, at least in this country. 

Maybe I don't have the right answers. I'm no expert, although I do have my opinions.

But I'm darn sure not seeing anything that's very effective coming from the pitbull groups. At least nothing that is helping. My local animal control is STILL 50-80% pit bulls. My state has bans in several cities (not my city - they just send them all to get killed at animal control).

Forced sterilization might help. I'm not negative - I'm realistic.

This is our local kill shelter, if the link works:
Pet List Scroller

Pit bull after pit bull or pit bull mix. When I look next week, it will be different pit bulls. I'm pretty sure they aren't all getting adopted.

Someone needs to think of SOMETHING that works, and do it.


----------



## cast71

I like to thank everyone in this thread for not getting hot headed and discussing this civilized. I learned alot reading through these posts. I can plainly see that DA should not be a reason for bsl. HA shouldn't either, because it can effect any dog. BSL is not good for any breed period. 

By the way, my dog is a dogo argentine that started from a Cordoba fighting dog. The two brothers that created the dogo wanted to make a large game hunting dog that would work in a pack. They breed the DA out of them by mixing many breeds together. You guys are right, because a dogo is nothing like a cordoba.


----------



## CavePaws

Puppypaws: Did you read all of my posts? I said specifically: HA dogs should not be set up to fail. This should mean not taking them out into public, unless going to a behaviorist who is working 1 on 1 with them on managing this issue. I have owned two HA dogs. You all act like every dog that has bitten a person is a baby killer. One of my dogs had a bite record of four. After the second bite he wasn't ever brought out into crowded public places again. He ended up living on a piece of property with his littermate and my father. We had many frequent visitors, and for this specific HA dog, given the opportunity to actually escape, that is what he chose - to run. You all are taking a huge blanket and throwing it over all dogs who have bitten humans. I'm really just saddened to see that so many people here are not willing to offer dogs the chance at working with a professional for a long period of time. The fact that we have dogs with better temperaments in shelters should not mean that we should be killing all the HA dogs. That is crazy. With this attitude, any dog with any behavioral problem that may pose a threat to the general public, should be put to sleep. DA dogs far outnumber HA dogs, at least in the cases that I've seen coming in. DA dogs often have a poorer prognosis(for a cure) than HA dogs. Why? DA can be far more complex. One of the number one reasons HA dogs are HA is because they are FEARFUL and put in a position where they cannot escape human contact. So, we should put all these fearful dogs down seems to be everyone's brilliant solution to this issue. Fear is something that can be curable. What I am hearing is that no one here would take the time and effort to work with an HA dog. HA dogs can still live very fulfilling lives, it is not like they have to be kept in utter isolation. 

One of my goals in life is to help as many DA and HA dogs I can possibly help.

It really makes me sad to know that if my dogs were put in the hands of multiple people here, they would have been euthanized. BOTH of my dogs were able to be rehabilitated, both accept(ed)friendly strangers, albeit reluctantly. I add the (ed) as my first HA dog is no longer with us, due to medical reasons, not HA.


Not many people are prepared to handle any kind of aggression, period. DA can be more manageable, sure...But what I am hearing is that you all are far more willing to work with a dog that has seriously mauled another dog, rather than a dog who has bitten a human and caused a puncture wound. I will say that I am heavily biased. I've owned two HA dogs and one severely DA dog; I have the resources to properly rehabilitate these dogs. I have the knowledge and access to a behaviorist who has been working with aggressive dogs for 25+ years. 

I will also say that my HA dog who had bitten four times never caused as much damage to a person as my DA dog has to dogs.

Not every dog can be rehabilitated. Not every dog should stay on this earth with us. But to say that a dog is undeserving of life because they may be fearful of humans; maybe, just maybe, they were put in the position where they had no chance to escape and felt they had to react? Well, in my opinion, seeing all of these posts here is just really sad. I feel bad for so many misunderstood dogs in the shelters and so many misunderstood dogs with loving owners who don't know what to do. Poor dogs, and poor people.

Btw, I don't feel DA is acceptable in any shape or severity. I think it is sort of appalling that everyone is okay with DA dogs who can still pose a serious threat to other people and dogs (ex: breaking up a dog fight).



kady05 said:


> Wow, hello negativity!
> 
> Pit Bulls aren't being banned for being DA. They're being banned because people think they're big bad baby killers. And like someone else said, half the time when you see "Pit Bull attack" on TV, it's not even a Pit Bull.
> 
> Do you really think that the same people who are causing the Pit Bull overpopulation problem (which is why they're all over the news, being owned by idiots, etc.) are going to try to breed out DA? No. They're not breeding for any specific traits, they're just breeding to breed and make money.


...Pitbulls aren't being banned because they are DA? They have a bad reputation because stupid people get their hands on them and don't take the proper steps to control their dogs. They have a bad reputation because people in the pitbull community seem to blindly accept DA. What does this cause? A whole lot of DA dogs out on the street not being properly controlled. 

And, apparently, if we take the DA out of the pitbull we are left with an empty shell of nothing. Sorry, this doesn't equate. I have seen countless dog friendly pitbulls. I love pitbulls, they are amazing dogs. I'm saddened that they have such a bad reputation. So in that at least, we seem to agree.


----------



## Oso

cast71 said:


> I like to thank everyone in this thread for not getting hot headed and discussing this civilized. I learned alot reading through these posts. I can plainly see that DA should not be a reason for bsl. HA shouldn't either, because it can effect any dog. BSL is not good for any breed period.
> 
> By the way, my dog is a dogo argentine that started from a Cordoba fighting dog. The two brothers that created the dogo wanted to make a large game hunting dog that would work in a pack. They breed the DA out of them by mixing many breeds together. You guys are right, because a dogo is nothing like a cordoba.


BSL is not good for DOGS in general, if they come after my pit bull typed dog, who's to say they wont come after Huskies, Labs, or any other dog deemed "dangerous" by people who know nothing about the breed. Thats why I think people arent getting hot headed, because BSLs and other hate typed things on a specific breed can easily whip around and be on your dog and your breeds.

Thats true, and they could only achieve getting the DA to a manageable working in a pack level by mixing numerous other breeds, not by breeding Cordobas together to try and decrease the DA.


----------



## Oso

@CavePaws, I think the people who own bully breeds, who are so adamant about these dogs being put down for being HA would rather not risk being on the news and having BSLs in their area, because they wanted to try and save one dog. In my opinion one HA bully breed dog is not worth the risk of something bad happening because I wanted to try and save it.

I am all for trying to help dogs out and work with them to get them to a functioning level, but for me if its a pit bull typed dog and it is HA, then its not worth it. NOW that being said I believe there is a huge difference in flat out HA and something like fear aggression, or lack of socialization that causes a skiddish or scared dog and those are what I think are worthy causes to try and rehabilitate, but if the dog is just flat out HA and has been socialized properly, then sorry rainbow bridge for that one.


----------



## CavePaws

Oso said:


> @CavePaws, I think the people who own bully breeds, who are so adamant about these dogs being put down for being HA would rather not risk being on the news and having BSLs in their area, because they wanted to try and save one dog. In my opinion one HA bully breed dog is not worth the risk of something bad happening because I wanted to try and save it.
> 
> I am all for trying to help dogs out and work with them to get them to a functioning level, but for me if its a pit bull typed dog and it is HA, then its not worth it. NOW that being said I believe there is a huge difference in flat out HA and something like fear aggression, or lack of socialization that causes a skiddish or scared dog and those are what I think are worthy causes to try and rehabilitate, but if the dog is just flat out HA and has been socialized properly, then sorry rainbow bridge for that one.


Again, what I see being said, is that killing one dog for the betterment of the breed would make a whole world of difference. I say, no, it won't. If you are willing to put your best friend down because of what the general public will think of them, then I would hate to be your friend.

HA can be caused by so many reasons. Fear aggression related to humans IS flat out HA. There are various causes for an HA dog. So, what causes are you not willing to accept is my question? Saying "flat out" is too general of a statement.

edit: And truly, it warms my heart to know that you are at least willing to work with a dog who is fearful and consequently aggressive. I thank you for that clarification.


----------



## Oso

CavePaws said:


> Again, what I see being said, is that killing one dog for the betterment of the breed would make a whole world of difference. I say, no, it won't. If you are willing to put your best friend down because of what the general public will think of them, then I would hate to be your friend.
> 
> HA can be caused by so many reasons. Fear aggression related to humans IS flat out HA. There are various causes for an HA dog. So, what causes are you not willing to accept is my question? Saying "flat out" is too general of a statement.
> 
> edit: And truly, it warms my heart to know that you are at least willing to work with a dog who is fearful and consequently aggressive. I thank you for that clarification.


It may not better the breed right then, but putting him down because of HA means he cant possible make the view on them any worse. I think of it in a realistic sense, not ALL dogs can be saved, not all can be rehabilitated, why not take the time with pit bull typed dogs who have something simpler and easier to fix than waste time on an out of standard dangerous dog with HA? 

I mean, things like fear or lack of socialization can be fixed or prevented, thing like a dog being HA for no known reason, something not being right in his head, or just not having time to fix him should just be put down, to many good dogs are being put down and to much time is being wasted on HA dogs. 

I have no problems with fearful dogs, its not his fault he doesnt know what to be afraid of and what not to be afraid of, although some dogs are so screwed up whether it be from poor breeding or just being wired wrong in the head that that fear never goes away, and only gets worse and those dogs need to be put down. 

You can only give so many chances and with a bully breed dog, those chances are cut down a lot. I can understand if a dog snaps out of pain, being freaked out, or some other outside cause, but a dog that snaps at someone for no reason, to much liability with these dogs for me to see it being worth while.


----------



## RachelsaurusRexU

I, for one, have no problem with breeding DA out of pit bulls. It would sure as hell make it easier to adopt out many of the dogs at our shelter. Why don't you propose some magical way to accomplish this, seeing as how the vast majority of people breeding pit bulls are doing so strictly for profit and many for illegal activity. Think they're going to be interested in bettering the breed? 

Even if pit bulls were magically no longer DA tomorrow (which many are not), people are still going to have misconceptions about them because people are mindless, bumbling idiots. 

No single pit bull owner can change the breed as a whole. The most we can do is educate others and be aware and responsible with our dogs, and that includes not pretending they're something they're not, accepting what they can be, and not putting them in situations where they're bound to fail. 

Side note: I went to a National Pit Bull Awareness Day event today where there were about 700 people and 200+ dogs. Most everyone was incredibly aware of their dog and there were NO incidents. 

I'm a little buzzed tonight, so I hope this makes sense.


----------



## Celt

I don't believe that BSL is a good thing and wouldn't support it, but I do understand how "hearing" some of what is said about DA (and yes, it's "aggression" that's the basis of BSL) would easily convince non-doggy people that "X" breed needs to be banned. Most people make the assumption that if a dog will attack another dog then it will attack "anything" because dogs are "pack" animals so if one is willing to turn on its "own" then it can't be trusted to be safe. On DA, I can see how it can be "managed" but it would be nice if it could be bred out or minimalized in "degree of occurrence".
On HA dogs, I'm sorry but I just can't bring myself to trust a dog with this issue. Maybe a dog can be rehabilitated but what if it "slips off the wagon". I, personally, could not deal with it if my dog caused a child/person an injury without any provocation. 
I must admit to having trouble with "accepting" severe aggresssion for any reason (even if "managed"). My mind can only come up with "what if" scenarios


----------



## Oso

Celt said:


> *I don't believe that BSL is a good thing and wouldn't support it, but I do understand how "hearing" some of what is said about DA (and yes, it's "aggression" that's the basis of BSL) would easily convince non-doggy people that "X" breed needs to be banned. Most people make the assumption that if a dog will attack another dog then it will attack "anything" because dogs are "pack" animals so if one is willing to turn on its "own" then it can't be trusted to be safe. On DA, I can see how it can be "managed" but it would be nice if it could be bred out or minimalized in "degree of occurrence".*
> On HA dogs, I'm sorry but I just can't bring myself to trust a dog with this issue. Maybe a dog can be rehabilitated but what if it "slips off the wagon". I, personally, could not deal with it if my dog caused a child/person an injury without any provocation.
> I must admit to having trouble with "accepting" severe aggresssion for any reason (even if "managed"). My mind can only come up with "what if" scenarios


True I get that, but thats all about education and bully breed owners need to accept the fact that DA can be a possibility and they dont need to sugar coat these dogs pasts and their purposes because thats the downfall, lying or being nice about the truth so it doesnt seen as bad does nothing good for these dogs.
Be upfront, be real, be honest, I tell people who want these dogs, look at mine, see how well trained he is, you know what thats from? HOURS of working with tricks, training, mental stimulation.. look at him, see how calm he is? Thats from HOURS of working him physically every single day, whether or not I feel like doing it I do it because thats whats required of me to own this breed, see how he walks by my side and wont even look at other dogs? Thats from those HOURS of training, but guess what, if I let him run up on that dog, you know what he would do? He would kill it in a heart beat, thats just what these dogs are capable of and being honest to those people helps them decide if this breed is the right dog for them, most rescues dont do that, they just want everyone to come out and adopt some cut wittle pibble and then neglect to tell them the dogs can be DA when they mature, they NEED to be worked and are very very smart when left to their own devices. 
THATS the problem, people try and make nice about these dogs, you wouldnt tell a person looking to get a Border Collie that you can keep it in an apartment and only do a 30 minute walk a day, right? Same thing with people who want bully breeds. Being honest and educating is the key.


----------



## xellil

RachelsaurusRexU said:


> I, for one, have no problem with breeding DA out of pit bulls. It would sure as hell make it easier to adopt out many of the dogs at our shelter. Why don't you propose some magical way to accomplish this, seeing as how the vast majority of people breeding pit bulls are doing so strictly for profit and many for illegal activity. Think they're going to be interested in bettering the breed?


When the American Staffordshire clubs or AKC sponsors shows, crowns champions (or whatever the heck they do) do they ever test for tendency for aggression? if not, maybe they should and disqualify any dog that is aggressive. At least make the legitimate groups look like they are doing something for the breed. 

And then publicize it to the public. Make them understand that pit bull lovers are encouraging good natured dogs, and not allowing ones who attack other dogs to be champions. Make non-aggresion a breed standard. There are lots of things to do - you are trying to change the way people think about these dogs, not change the world overnight.

No one can ever stop bad breeders. That's in every single breed. No one thinks that's possible. There are people who sell giant "warlock" dobermans as some kind of special dog, like "rare" blue pits. And people buy them.


----------



## kady05

xellil said:


> When the American Staffordshire clubs or AKC sponsors shows, crowns champions (or whatever the heck they do) do they ever test for tendency for aggression? if not, maybe they should and disqualify any dog that is aggressive. At least make the legitimate groups look like they are doing something for the breed.


No, that is not done. One thing that IS done with a few Terrier breeds though is called "sparring": Sparring: Breed Information: Showing Kerries: United States Kerry Blue Terrier Club


----------



## Oso

xellil said:


> When the American Staffordshire clubs or AKC sponsors shows, crowns champions (or whatever the heck they do) do they ever test for tendency for aggression? if not, maybe they should and disqualify any dog that is aggressive. At least make the legitimate groups look like they are doing something for the breed.
> 
> And then publicize it to the public. Make them understand that pit bull lovers are encouraging good natured dogs, and not allowing ones who attack other dogs to be champions. Make non-aggresion a breed standard. There are lots of things to do - you are trying to change the way people think about these dogs, not change the world overnight.
> 
> No one can ever stop bad breeders. That's in every single breed. No one thinks that's possible. There are people who sell giant "warlock" dobermans as some kind of special dog, like "rare" blue pits. And people buy them.


Well obviously they are breeding against the DA because if they werent they would be APBTs, not Amstaffs...


----------



## kady05

I will say though, why single out the Amstaff or the APBT for showing DA? To me, that's like saying if a Greyhound kills a rabbit, or shows any sign of prey drive in the ring, it should be DQ. Or if a Border Collie shows a herding instinct, DQ. Etc., etc.


----------



## xellil

It's funny, when I look at the standards for Dobermans it says "The judge shall dismiss from the ring any shy or vicious Doberman" but it doesn't say anything like that for the American Staffordshire terrier. I would assume that would be true for all dogs, but maybe not.

I don't think alot of pit bull owners would be comfortable with sparring. Maybe it should be something to work toward.


----------



## kady05

xellil said:


> It's funny, when I look at the standards for Dobermans it says "The judge shall dismiss from the ring any shy or vicious Doberman" but it doesn't say anything like that for the American Staffordshire terrier. I would assume that would be true for all dogs, but maybe not.
> 
> I don't think alot of pit bull owners would be comfortable with sparring. Maybe it should be something to work toward.


I didn't mention the sparring because I thought it was something the Amstaff or APBT dogs should do in the ring. I brought it up because you said that if one shows DA, it should be DQ'd. The fact that sparring still happens shows that fanciers of certain breeds know that a level of DA or just tenacity is to be expected from their dogs.

Oh and this is what UKC says re: DA: Note: Although some level of dog aggression is characteristic of this breed, handlers will be expected to comply with UKC policy regarding dog temperament at UKC events.

And just general breed info.: The essential characteristics of the American Pit Bull Terrier are strength, confidence, and zest for life. This breed is eager to please and brimming over with enthusiasm. APBTs make excellent family companions and have always been noted for their love of children. Because most APBTs exhibit some level of dog aggression and because of its powerful physique, the APBT requires an owner who will carefully socialize and obedience train the dog. The breed’s natural agility makes it one of the most capable canine climbers so good fencing is a must for this breed. The APBT is not the best choice for a guard dog since they are extremely friendly, even with strangers. Aggressive behavior toward humans is uncharacteristic of the breed and highly undesirable. This breed does very well in performance events because of its high level of intelligence and its willingness to work.


----------



## xellil

kady05 said:


> I will say though, why single out the Amstaff or the APBT for showing DA? To me, that's like saying if a Greyhound kills a rabbit, or shows any sign of prey drive in the ring, it should be DQ. Or if a Border Collie shows a herding instinct, DQ. Etc., etc.


Because the country is not trying to ban sighthounds. Sighthounds are not bred for dogfighting rings, and tortured and killed if they don't make the grade. Because sighthounds are not being killed by the millions in shelters. Because the public doesn't hate on sight any dog that looks like a sighthound. Because people don't use sighthounds to show how big and bad they are.

I can't believe you try to compare dog aggression to herding or prey drive. For Pete's sake. The situation of pit bulls in this country is in total crisis, and you want to compare it to chasing a squirrel?


----------



## xellil

kady05 said:


> I didn't mention the sparring because I thought it was something the Amstaff or APBT dogs should do in the ring. I brought it up because you said that if one shows DA, it should be DQ'd. The fact that sparring still happens shows that fanciers of certain breeds know that a level of DA or just tenacity is to be expected from their dogs.


It also says they should not be really fighting. Unless you think it's ok to have a dogfight at dog show????


----------



## kady05

xellil said:


> Because the country is not trying to ban sighthounds. Sighthounds are not bred for dogfighting rings, and tortured and killed if they don't make the grade. Because sighthounds are not being killed by the millions in shelters. Because the public doesn't hate on sight any dog that looks like a sighthound. Because people don't use sighthounds to show how big and bad they are.
> 
> I can't believe you try to compare dog aggression to herding or prey drive. For Pete's sake. The situation of pit bulls in this country is in total crisis, and you want to compare it to chasing a squirrel?


I'm just pointing out other traits of other breeds. DA is not some end all thing and shouldn't be treated any differently.



xellil said:


> It also says they should not be really fighting. Unless you think it's ok to have a dogfight at dog show????


Yes, I think it's perfectly acceptable to have dogs fighting at a conformation show 

You really are missing my entire point. So, never mind.


----------



## RachelsaurusRexU

xellil said:


> When the American Staffordshire clubs or AKC sponsors shows, crowns champions (or whatever the heck they do) do they ever test for tendency for aggression? if not, maybe they should and disqualify any dog that is aggressive. At least make the legitimate groups look like they are doing something for the breed.
> 
> And then publicize it to the public. Make them understand that pit bull lovers are encouraging good natured dogs, and not allowing ones who attack other dogs to be champions. Make non-aggresion a breed standard. There are lots of things to do - you are trying to change the way people think about these dogs, not change the world overnight.
> 
> No one can ever stop bad breeders. That's in every single breed. No one thinks that's possible. There are people who sell giant "warlock" dobermans as some kind of special dog, like "rare" blue pits. And people buy them.


The dogs you're referring to, what percentage of "pit bull type" dogs do you think they make up? I don't see how that's even relevant or is going to make any tiny dent of a difference in the grand scheme of things. Again, the VAST MAJORITY of pit bulls produced come from people who have one goal in mind, and it sure as hell isn't changing the way people see dogs.


----------



## Celt

I didn't think sparring was DA so much as a "dominance" (some call it attitude) thing. I've known/owned quite a few dogs who would "puff up" when facing off, but generally it didn't end in fighting. Usually, either one will "submit" or a small distraction and things chill. I've always seen DA as a dog that "atttacks" another, even with the other "submitting". I'm thinking what I consider DA might not be what others think.


----------



## xellil

The breed standard you quoted is what I think is a big part of the problem. It's acceptable. maybe it shouldn't be. 

Personally, I don't give a giant patootie about dog aggressive dogs - I'll never own one and I'm prepared to deal with loose ones. What i DO care about is what's happening to the dogs, and how the public perceives them, and how many are being tortured, fought, put down, and hated from coast to coast in this country. i don't know why people who say they love the breed aren't willing to change the way the major associations project their image.

Sparring, it says, determines alertness, courage and confidence. Not aggression. Why wouldn't that be ok?


----------



## xellil

RachelsaurusRexU said:


> The dogs you're referring to, what percentage of "pit bull type" dogs do you think they make up? I don't see how that's even relevant or is going to make any tiny dent of a difference in the grand scheme of things. Again, the VAST MAJORITY of pit bulls produced come from people who have one goal in mind, and it sure as hell isn't changing the way people see dogs.


There are puppy mills and bad breeders all over the country, for ever single breed. No one is ever going to change that. But I believe the clubs DO have an effect.

Do YOU have any thoughts, then? Are you happy with the way things are?


----------



## xellil

Celt said:


> I didn't think sparring was DA so much as a "dominance" (some call it attitude) thing. I've known/owned quite a few dogs who would "puff up" when facing off, but generally it didn't end in fighting. Usually, either one will "submit" or a small distraction and things chill. I've always seen DA as a dog that "atttacks" another, even with the other "submitting". I'm thinking what I consider DA might not be what others think.


All of my dogs created some kind of pecking order. I sure don't see that as dog aggression. I'm with you - if one dog wants to not fight and the other dog attacks anyway, that's dog aggression.


----------



## Oso

xellil said:


> The breed standard you quoted is what I think is a big part of the problem. It's acceptable. maybe it shouldn't be.
> 
> Personally, I don't give a giant patootie about dog aggressive dogs - I'll never own one and I'm prepared to deal with loose ones. What i DO care about is what's happening to the dogs, and how the public perceives them, and how many are being tortured, fought, put down, and hated from coast to coast in this country. i don't know why people who say they love the breed aren't willing to change the way the major associations project their image.
> 
> Sparring, it says, determines alertness, courage and confidence. Not aggression. Why wouldn't that be ok?




Why shouldnt it be? Its the standard for the whole breed? Thats like me saying I dont like the way sight hounds hunt rabbits and have prey drive, so I think they should just change that standard and not allow those dogs that show prey drive to be bred.

Thats whats wrong with this country, instead of people getting good information and passing on truths, we have people who dont like the way things work so they want to change it all together not teach people how to deal with it. Its not a bad thing. I plan on getting a game bred APBT and I hope he is DA, otherwise I just got myself a cold dog thats not what the breed is. 
Its like me shooting for a Border Collie that doesnt need to work, or a hound that wont hunt..

I dont think we need to change the breed, Amstaffs have proven that doesnt work, I think we need to educate the public and encourage them to learn about the breed before they get it, and if they get one they need to still be educated about them and their high energy and the DA.


----------



## xellil

I think I get it now - way too many pit bull owners just really like their dogs to be aggressive against other dogs. On the surface, you all say how horrible everyone is for thinking they are such mean bad dogs, and yet that's exactly the kind of dog you like.

I give up.


----------



## Oso

xellil said:


> I think I get it now - way too many pit bull owners just really like their dogs to be aggressive against other dogs. On the surface, you all say how horrible everyone is for thinking they are such mean bad dogs, and yet that's exactly the kind of dog you like.
> 
> I give up.


Its the breed standard, why would I expect them to be any different? I dont expect a Border Collie to be a couch potato. 

Dog aggression doesnt prove that my dog is a mean bad dog, my dog is a great dog so what if he doesnt like other dogs?? How does that prove he is a bad dog? I could understand if he didnt like/wanted to attack people but he doesnt! He is a perfect dog and if I get a game bred APBT I expect him to be the perfect example of the breed and that entails some degree of dog aggression. Doesnt mean he is a bad dog either.


----------



## catahoulamom

Sigh, I said I wouldn't post anymore on this issue, but I have to say to Kelly (CavePaws) that I couldn't agree with you more. Thank you for your compassion and hard work helping so many misunderstood dogs. If I ever need somebody to help me with my DA or HA dog, I will be driving to Texas...

I don't have any other input on the pit bull debate... all I can say is that I have never been more relieved than I am now that my dog shows no dog or human aggression. I will stick with my poorly bred rescued pits... and do everything in my power to ensure I don't end up with a dog aggressive dog (as I do with any breed/mutt I adopt). Maybe the day I end up with a DA dog I will feel differently. However I do hate that people are so into breed standard that they think DA is an acceptable trait. I frankly couldn't give a sh*t less about breed standard, for any breed. A dog is a dog. I don't need a fancy one. As it's been said, there will always be DA dogs of any breed... doesn't mean we should continue to intentionally produce them. This is my opinion, people, and I'm sticking to it... as you are entitled to yours. 

I will have to say that I am glad everyone here seems to be responsible pit bull owners, whether we agree with breeding practices/what the breed standard should be/etc. It's good to see so many people that love their dogs, DA or not.


----------



## Oso

catahoulamom said:


> Sigh, I said I wouldn't post anymore on this issue, but I have to say to Kelly (CavePaws) that I couldn't agree with you more. Thank you for your compassion and hard work helping so many misunderstood dogs. If I ever need somebody to help me with my DA or HA dog, I will be driving to Texas...
> 
> I don't have any other input on the pit bull debate... all I can say is that I have never been more relieved than I am now that my dog shows no dog or human aggression. I will stick with my poorly bred rescued pits... and do everything in my power to ensure I don't end up with a dog aggressive dog (as I do with any breed/mutt I adopt). Maybe the day I end up with a DA dog I will feel differently. However I do hate that people are so into breed standard that they think DA is an acceptable trait. I frankly couldn't give a sh*t less about breed standard, for any breed. A dog is a dog. I don't need a fancy one. As it's been said, there will always be DA dogs of any breed... doesn't mean we should continue to intentionally produce them. This is my opinion, people, and I'm sticking to it... as you are entitled to yours.
> 
> I will have to say that I am glad everyone here seems to be responsible pit bull owners, whether we agree with breeding practices/what the breed standard should be/etc. It's good to see so many people that love their dogs, DA or not.


While I am happy you havnt had to deal with DA, dont think you wont ever it could happen. Its a crap shoot when adopting dogs. I know I was expecting my blue dog to be as cold as can be, and he isnt even 10months and DA. I would never think of getting rid of him or putting him down because of this, he cant help his genetics.


----------



## catahoulamom

Oso said:


> While I am happy you havnt had to deal with DA, dont think you wont ever it could happen. Its a crap shoot when adopting dogs. I know I was expecting my blue dog to be as cold as can be, and he isnt even 10months and DA. I would never think of getting rid of him or putting him down because of this, he cant help his genetics.


I know, I completely understand that adopting dogs is a crap shoot. That is why I usually adopt puppies, as much as I would love to adopt an older dog (since they are less likely to be adopted), with my lifestyle and the amount of animals I have, I feel as though it is a safer route to raise a puppy to adapt to this lifestyle. If I were to ever find the perfect adult dog to fit our home, I wouldn't hesitate if I were looking for another dog to adopt them - but I have yet to find one. 

Rambo is almost 3, I am pretty confidant he will not turn one day and become dog aggressive. That being said, I am not an ignorant owner, I know both my catahoulas and pit bull could do some damage if the right dog pissed them off, so I will continue to be a responsible owner and set them up to succeed.


----------



## Oso

catahoulamom said:


> Rambo is almost 3, I am pretty confidant he will not turn one day and become dog aggressive. That being said, I am not an ignorant owner, I know both my catahoulas and pit bull could do some damage if the right dog pissed them off, so I will continue to be a responsible owner and set them up to succeed.


Thats all you can do really, just be a great owner and be responsible. 

But some dogs turn on at 10 months some at 6+ years, I doubt you wouldnt be able to handle a DA dog, its not like your handling a bomb ya know? Sometimes they are only dog selective, sometimes dog aggressive depends on the dog, sometimes they never turn out to be either.


----------



## lauren43

GoingPostal said:


> How about the fact that dog fighting has nothing to do with why the breed is in trouble today, that's poor breeding and irresponsible owners. Dog fighting went on for a long time legally and the breed wasn't in the crapper then, no pit bull attacks on people left and right, heck not that many dog on dog attacks because people kept them contained properly.


This is not true. There is a reason we have leash laws now and this is relatively new. My parents who are in their 50's had dogs growing up, none of them were ever leashed and they rarely lived inside. My mom was chased and nearly attacked quite a few times growing up. My dad had a dog that was a known biter growing up and he wandered the streets daily. And both my parents lived in the city! People didn't think about dogs back 30 years ago the way we do today...I can't imagine how it was 100 years ago. Dogs were dogs back then...



xellil said:


> They weren't aggressive to each other originally. i suspect they had to work together to do their jobs, not be at odds with each other.
> 
> There is no legitimate reason for dogs to attack each other except for human sport.
> 
> You can still have tenacity, strength, and all the other traits. Someone bred dog aggression INTO them when they didn't start out that way.
> 
> It's only easily managed if people put forth the effort. Way too many people encourage it, not try to manage it. It's also the reason pit bulls are being euthanized at a higher rate than other dogs, and banned in some places, and vilified from all quarters. I suspect if they had the choice, they would choose to live peacefully with both people and other dogs.


I do think it would be nice to breed out DA in any breed. I know why Pits have the spotlight right now but they are not the only breed of dog with DA. Many Mastiff type dogs can't live with other dogs...I have been looking at rescue sites for some of my favorite breeds, I've seen older Dobie rescues that recommend homes with no other dogs as well as Saint Bernard rescues say the same thing. Perhaps it is not considered a breed trait with some of these other breeds but that doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

I actually emailed a bullmastiff breeder before I got Ave because I was interested in knowing more about the breed. She actually responded saying they are not a dogs dog and they are happiest being the only dog. No that doesn't mean they are necessarily DA but it shows that not all dogs need other dogs to be happy..

Btw IMO actual DA dogs are hard to come by. I define a DA dog as a dog that can't be around any other dogs period and if they are around other dogs they will attack and they are going in for the kill.

Dog selective dogs are much more common. These are the dogs that perhaps get along with the other dogs in the house but do not like strange dogs or dogs that only like certain dogs and don't like some others.

When did it become necessary for a dog to love every dog it meets? Do like every person you meet? No. So why do we expect this of our dogs? They are individuals, so they may just click with one dog and disagree with another...



xellil said:


> It's funny, when I look at the standards for Dobermans it says "The judge shall dismiss from the ring any shy or vicious Doberman" but it doesn't say anything like that for the American Staffordshire terrier.


I think what they mean by vicious is towards humans not other dogs. No judge wants to get bit. I do not consider a dog vicious just because it doesn't like other dogs. Did you ever think of when that standard was written? Perhaps it was when dobermans were deemed 'dangerous'. Although Dobermans are not ostracised like the pit bull, people still fear them.


----------



## CavePaws

I also want to add, both of my aggressive dogs have been the most lovable, loyal, cuddly family dogs. My DA dog Indi is my heart dog. Still, if she turned on me I would exhaust all possible routes and find a way to fix the problem. I would not be against using a shock collar for those random incidents where she acted aggressive towards me. If using harsh methods and punishment means keeping my best friend on this earth, then yes I would exhaust that option of training too. I would say if life is miserable for both of you then euthanasia is really the only humane option. I couldn't see putting down my aggressive dog before trying everything in this world to help her. So, I am really bias, I will put up with a lot for my dogs. That is why, to me, for my dogs, these aggressive issues with strange people and strange dogs have been minor issues to me worth working through.


----------



## CorgiPaws

1. No dog should have a bite record of four, IMO. Holy sh*t. 

2. I see a very direct link between comparing prey drive and DA. Being DA is no more bad than having prey drive. Both can kill or injure other animals, both are easily manageable. 

3. I love my dogs very much, and no I would not euthanize at the first sign on HA. I would work with a professional. But, I do think after bite #2 you've proven to not be cut out for keeping a HA dog, and at that point I would highly CONSIDER euthanasia ...sorry. I can not say if I for sure would or not, I've never been in that situation. It's really easy to say but if Annie bit someone, could I part with her? I can't even think about it its so upsetting. So, CavePaws, I can certainly see and respect where you're coming from. It's one those things easy to have an opinion on that you can't really say without being there. Like parenting!! Haha


----------



## lauren43

xellil said:


> I think I get it now - way too many pit bull owners just really like their dogs to be aggressive against other dogs. On the surface, you all say how horrible everyone is for thinking they are such mean bad dogs, and yet that's exactly the kind of dog you like.
> 
> I give up.


I do not like nor want my dog to be dog aggressive ever! For me it was something I needed to know before getting involved with the breed. I do not like it and if I saw a clear cut way to change it I would!



Oso said:


> I plan on getting a game bred APBT and I hope he is DA, otherwise I just got myself a cold dog thats not what the breed is.


I don't understand why anyone would want a DA dog.



catahoulamom said:


> I know, I completely understand that adopting dogs is a crap shoot. That is why I usually adopt puppies, as much as I would love to adopt an older dog (since they are less likely to be adopted), with my lifestyle and the amount of animals I have, I feel as though it is a safer route to raise a puppy to adapt to this lifestyle. If I were to ever find the perfect adult dog to fit our home, I wouldn't hesitate if I were looking for another dog to adopt them - but I have yet to find one.
> 
> Rambo is almost 3, I am pretty confidant he will not turn one day and become dog aggressive. That being said, I am not an ignorant owner, I know both my catahoulas and pit bull could do some damage if the right dog pissed them off, so I will continue to be a responsible owner and set them up to succeed.


Although I get what your saying about puppies I am the total opposite lol. From what I've witnessed adult dogs tend to be more set in their "ways" if you will behaviorally which is why I personally would go for an adult before a puppy...

And Cavepaws I commend you for what you do! I wish there were more people out there willing to do whatever it takes to keep their pet in their home! Sadly there aren't very many ppl able or willing to do the work you do and this is why many ppl think they should be PTS because in the wrong hands that dog will do nothing good. If I ended up with a dog with any behaviorial issues I would first exhaust every option before considering euth...


----------



## CavePaws

PuppyPaws said:


> 1. No dog should have a bite record of four, IMO. Holy sh*t.
> 
> 2. I see a very direct link between comparing prey drive and DA. Being DA is no more bad than having prey drive. Both can kill or injure other animals, both are easily manageable.
> 
> 3. I love my dogs very much, and no I would not euthanize at the first sign on HA. I would work with a professional. But, I do think after bite #2 you've proven to not be cut out for keeping a HA dog, and at that point I would highly CONSIDER euthanasia ...sorry. I can not say if I for sure would or not, I've never been in that situation. It's really easy to say but if Annie bit someone, could I part with her? I can't even think about it its so upsetting. So, CavePaws, I can certainly see and respect where you're coming from. It's one those things easy to have an opinion on that you can't really say without being there. Like parenting!! Haha


1 - bit my sisters boyfriends shoe.
2 - bit petsmart trainer, she was leaning over him
3 + 4 - bit the behaviorist, one was a graze from lunging, I still consider it a bite as there was mouth to hand contact.

No, puncture wounds, no blood. I think, again, you are thinking that every time a dog goes to bite they are going to do a good deal of damage. This is not the case. Some dogs have excellent bite inhibition, those that do stand a better chance of being able to be rehabilitated.

Lauren, this is why I say that these dogs are not for everyone to own. Too many people are not competent enough to keep an aggressive dog of any kind.


----------



## RachelsaurusRexU

xellil said:


> There are puppy mills and bad breeders all over the country, for ever single breed. No one is ever going to change that. But I believe the clubs DO have an effect.
> 
> Do YOU have any thoughts, then? Are you happy with the way things are?


The clubs have NO effect on people who don't give a hoot about standards in the first place. 

Hell no, I'm not happy with the way things are. Would you be happy if dachshunds were being maligned and crucified, taken from their homes and murdered at an alarming rate? I think people need to shape the F up and start thinking about something more than themselves. I think people need to research like mad before they decide to acquire a dog, ANY DOG. I think people need to take pet ownership more seriously and be prepared to work through any obstacles that pop up, as it's a lifetime commitment. I also think people need to have realistic expectations of their dogs. I don't think that pretending dog aggression or dog selectiveness doesn't exist just for the sake of saving face is the answer. Maybe that's part of the problem. Some people don't have realistic expectations and put their dogs in situations that they aren't equipped to handle and OOPS! a mishap occurs. I work in a shelter and I do rescue. I'm not buying young puppies from breeders and starting off with a clean slate. Most of the dogs I meet are a year and older. Clearly, they ended up in my hands because somebody was irresponsible, so I don't really expect these dogs to have come from reputable breeders, be well trained or well socialized (though many are!). Do I think DA/DS is desirable? H-E-L-L no, but it does exist, and I'm going to be prepared for it and handle dogs accordingly. I think a heck of a lot needs to change. Pit bulls are obviously euthanized FAR more than any other breed and this really upsets me. However, saying "DA needs to be bred out of them" and expecting that to be a solution or a cure-all for all of the adversity these dogs face is extremely unrealistic.


----------



## Cliffdog

lauren43 said:


> I don't understand why anyone would want a DA dog.


I guess you don't understand why a Greyhound owner would want prey drive or a Collie owner would want herding drive, either. Because that's part of the breed. I want the whole APBT, not a clean and nicely censored version.


----------



## Cliffdog

LOL. I find it hilarious that people think the Pit Bull type dogs are in trouble because they aren't dog friendly. LMAO LMAO LMAO.

And no, I don't think the DA should be taken out of them. I don't think they should be made softer to fit into people's vision of a good pet dog. I don't want the novice owner to even come near this type of dog. If it were up to me, I'd make it so you had to have some form of proof that you aren't an inept fool to own any working breed, and your typical "pet owner" would never even lay eyes on a Pit Bull type dog.


----------



## lauren43

Cliffdog said:


> I guess you don't understand why a Greyhound owner would want prey drive or a Collie owner would want herding drive, either. Because that's part of the breed. I want the whole APBT, not a clean and nicely censored version.


I just don't understand why or how DA could be a desirable trait. What purpose does it serve if your not fighting your dog or a least training it to be a fighter? People get herding dogs because they want to do something with that herding drive. Many ppl with sighthounds use their abilities for exercise and the like (lure coursing, etc). 

IMO if you have a dog with DA its harder to go to obedience classes or enjoy a stroll in the park or to ever really feel comfortable with them off leash, not impossible but you have to be hyper aware of your surroundings. Can you give me some positives to DA?


----------



## Cliffdog

lauren43 said:


> I just don't understand why or how DA could be a desirable trait. What purpose does it serve if your not fighting your dog or a least training it to be a fighter? People get herding dogs because they want to do something with that herding drive. Many ppl with sighthounds use their abilities for exercise and the like (lure coursing, etc).
> 
> IMO if you have a dog with DA its harder to go to obedience classes or enjoy a stroll in the park or to ever really feel comfortable with them off leash, not impossible but you have to be hyper aware of your surroundings. Can you give me some positives to DA?


What purpose does prey drive or herding drive serve if you aren't working your dog? It's part of the breed. I don't want a version of the APBT that has been screwed around with, I want the real deal. I don't go to obedience classes because I can train my own dog (and anyone who can't should find a different breed) and I never ever take my dog off leash outside of our fenced yard except during SAR training because anything can happen.

If you don't like DA, that's just fine and dandy, there are about a thousand other breeds to choose from. I don't like a dog that's going to be howling all the time so I don't have a hound dog, I'm not going to get a hound dog and try to breed the vocality out of it.

ETA: Not all fighting dogs were DA, either, so don't pull that "why have a DA dog if you aren't going to fight it". There are multiple instances of famous fighting dogs from history being able to run around the yard and play with other dogs. The first that comes to mind is Cates' GR CH Nigerino.


----------



## CavePaws

I tried really hard to resist commenting, Cliffdog. But, unfortunately, I have to open my mouth about this. What you believe is disgusting. You are Pro DA in every sense, I wouldn't put it past you to attend a dog fight and feel fine about it. I can't even believe you went so far as to compare herding sheep and catching rabbits to attacking and killing another dog in a horribly torturous and brutal way.

Kady, don't you show one of your dogs? The very pretty male with cropped ears in your signature, Sako. Is he dog aggressive? Just curious, as you haven't mentioned that he is. 

And Oso, was it you who said that you want a game bred dog and that you are okay with crating and rotating? Aren't you close enough to your current dog to feel sort of bad about _seeking out_ an extremely high drive DA pitbull and thus cutting down on the amount of time you get with your current dog? I like my pack to be harmonious. I won't ever be able to introduce another dog into my pack until Indi is gone. I'm completely fine with that. If I could I would prevent her from getting old and keep her forever. I love my DA dog and I couldn't care less if anyone doesn't want me to keep her around. I understand, in a sense, where you all are coming from, saying that a breed should not be persecuted for what it was bred to do. I'm sort of flabbergasted that anyone would ever state they want to buy a truly, extremely severe, DA dog. I will say that any game bred dog is going to be too much DA dog for anyone who is not willing to go to great lengths to keep their dog and everyone else's dog safe. Game bred dogs really don't belong in the hands of anyone who have not researched the hell out of the breed and DA. I know breeding DA out of pitbulls is completely unrealistic. But striving to breed dogs for the tenacity their offspring will show towards other dogs is just disgusting *to me*. Genetics play a HUGE role in aggression, far more than what most people like to admit because they would rather think it is the owner who screwed up. I know you love your pitbulls the way they are. I love my dog aggressive dog the way she is. But I love her despite her DA, I love her for everything she is that is good. Since her DA is manageable with my current dogs and doable in controlled situations in public, ya it is easy to overlook her issues. They are rather minor to me. I wouldn't trust dogs like her in many people's hands; frankly, I wouldn't feel comfortable re-homing a dog like Indi to anyone but an extremely skilled handler with experience with multiple DA dogs.

Aggression is so complex. We could go on for another hundred pages and still be talking about categories *of *aggression _*and *_*in *aggression *and *if that dog has any chance at being "cured" or not. Too many "ands" for this to just be taken so lightly - imo.

It can be a mix and match. Like having a hat for DA and a hat for HA, and then hats inside of those to determine the severity and the causes. 

I will break it down so anyone reading this who hasn't a clue what we are talking about might get it:

-Indi- 
DA: possessive over anything of value, okay with dogs grown up with, no off switch when a fight is started, aggressive towards all dogs outside "pack"
HA: Extremely shy, reserved, fearful, submissive towards people she did not grow up knowing/

-Dog B- 
DA: Fearful, reserved, will only react when cornered
HA: Possessive over any object of value, possessive over a place of value like a couch, bed, etc., applies to strangers and owners

-Tucker - 
DA: None 
HA: fearful (pees when being touched by a stranger if wearing a muzzle), if cornered - will bite - bite is always an inhibited one, (obviously, if he wanted to rip an arm to shreds obviously he could have)

The point is, a lot of the time, you have to actually exhaust a lot of routes to figure out what the h*ll is wrong with your dog and if they can be rehabilitated. Not a lot of people actually do that and I agree, a lot of dogs that are on either end or both ends of the extremes really don't have a lot of options. I totally agree, in the wrong hands, an aggressive dog will do nothing but harm. Take dogs with predisposed genetics towards DA and really really really dumb backyard breeders and you have the perfect storm for a breed of dogs that is being abused and riddled with possible behavioral issues the normal owner isn't prepared to handle. They are filling up the shelters. It's horrible.

I seriously just can't see why breeding for DA is so attractive. I'm very passionate about this subject, can't even believe I am up this late rambling about it, but when I see dogs dying because of a behavioral problem I really, really, really want there to be a cure somehow. I don't think it will be possible until MUCH stricter rules are enforced about dog fighting and breeding. Seems we are SOL.


----------



## CavePaws

Ugh, Cliffdog, plain and simple you are okay with and even support dog fighting. Why don't you just post it in big fat bold letters already.


----------



## Cliffdog

CavePaws said:


> I tried really hard to resist commenting, Cliffdog. But, unfortunately, I have to open my mouth about this. What you believe is disgusting. You are Pro DA in every sense,


I am not "pro-DA." I'm just not anti-DA. I think breeding such an easily managed trait out of a breed is f'ing ridiculous. I don't believe in changing breeds to suit your needs; get your own god damn breed if you don't like mine.


CavePaws said:


> I wouldn't put it past you to attend a dog fight and feel fine about it.


That's illegal. If you think I am breaking the law in any way than send me a private message and I'll be happy to talk to you about that. Otherwise please don't defame my character.


CavePaws said:


> I can't even believe you went so far as to compare herding sheep and catching rabbits to attacking and killing another dog in a horribly torturous and brutal way.


I compared prey drive and herding drive to dog aggression; I didn't compare herding sheep and catching rabbits to letting your dog attack a dog. If you think people with dog aggressive dogs just let them go about slaughtering other dogs then you are sorely mistaken. DA is such an easy trait to manage that I hardly ever think about it.


CavePaws said:


> I seriously just can't see why breeding for DA is so attractive. I'm very passionate about this subject, can't even believe I am up this late rambling about it, but when I see dogs dying because of a behavioral problem I really, really, really want there to be a cure somehow.


DA isn't a problem unless you insist on forcing your dogs to be something they are not. Don't like DA? Don't get a breed that's prone to it. As for DA dogs dying in shelters, I would rather see most "pit bulls" and other working dogs dead than in the hands of your typical dog owner who doesn't know jack s***.


----------



## Cliffdog

CavePaws said:


> Ugh, Cliffdog, plain and simple you are okay with and even support dog fighting. Why don't you just post it in big fat bold letters already.


I don't support anyone breaking the law. I might endorse dog fighting to someone if they came up to me and said "Hey, I really like jail, I'd love to go there for the better part of my life." I'd probably suggest murder first, though.


----------



## CavePaws

Your moral character is so questionable, it's just really amazing. You don't support anyone breaking the law. But what you are saying essentially, and what I get from looking at your posts on other forums, is that if it were not illegal you wouldn't have another reason to tell them not to do it. Where is your heart? 


Get my own damn breed? You need a new damn breed. You also need a new damn attitude is what you need. Sorry, anyone who supports FIGHTING DOGS doesn't need to own a severely DA dog. WTF. They don't even need to own a dog.


----------



## lauren43

Cliffdog said:


> What purpose does prey drive or herding drive serve if you aren't working your dog? It's part of the breed. I don't want a version of the APBT that has been screwed around with, I want the real deal. I don't go to obedience classes because I can train my own dog (and anyone who can't should find a different breed) and I never ever take my dog off leash outside of our fenced yard except during SAR training because anything can happen.


If you have a herding dog and you don't work it, you'd better find a different outlet for that dog because you are asking for other behavioral issues...

Umm there is nothing wrong with obedience classes regardless of my personal training skills. I am not the type of person that thinks they know everything when it comes to training. Every class I have been to has been a little different so I learn something new each time. I just started Agility with Avery not something I can afford to do in my own back yard. Besides the fact Avery benefits from every class we take as far as socialization goes. Even if I thought he was where I wanted him to be as far as obedience goes, I would keep taking classes. Does that mean I shouldn't own Avery? No.



Cliffdog said:


> If you don't like DA, that's just fine and dandy, there are about a thousand other breeds to choose from. I don't like a dog that's going to be howling all the time so I don't have a hound dog, I'm not going to get a hound dog and try to breed the vocality out of it.


Too late. I love pits and their mixes, nothing is going to change that. Not even DA.



Cliffdog said:


> ETA: Not all fighting dogs were DA, either, so don't pull that "why have a DA dog if you aren't going to fight it". There are multiple instances of famous fighting dogs from history being able to run around the yard and play with other dogs. The first that comes to mind is Cates' GR CH Nigerino.


Ok If they don't have to be DA to be champion fighters then why breed for DA. Clearly it wasn't always a necesity so why is it now, that just seems silly to me.


----------



## Cliffdog

CavePaws said:


> Your moral character is so questionable, it's just really amazing. You don't support anyone breaking the law. But what you are saying essentially, and what I get from looking at your posts on other forums, is that if it were not illegal you wouldn't have another reason to tell them not to do it. Where is your heart?
> 
> 
> Get my own damn breed? You need a new damn breed. You also need a new damn attitude is what you need. Sorry, anyone who supports FIGHTING DOGS doesn't need to own a severely DA dog. WTF. They don't even need to own a dog.


My heart is in my dogs, thanks. "If it were not illegal" doesn't matter, because it is. If you think I shouldn't own a DA dog, well, I'm very sorry, I guess it's good your opinion doesn't matter much in my choice of dog, because my two dog selective girls are pretty happy with their home. I know how to manage a DA dog, and I don't have any issues with it. Owning a DA dog is very much like owning a dog friendly dog. The major difference is that you can't be a slacker.


----------



## Cliffdog

lauren43 said:


> If you have a herding dog and you don't work it, you'd better find a different outlet for that dog because you are asking for other behavioral issues...
> 
> Umm there is nothing wrong with obedience classes regardless of my personal training skills. I am not the type of person that thinks they know everything when it comes to training. Every class I have been to has been a little different so I learn something new each time. I just started Agility with Avery not something I can afford to do in my own back yard. Besides the fact Avery benefits from every class we take as far as socialization goes. Even if I thought he was where I wanted him to be as far as obedience goes, I would keep taking classes. Does that mean I shouldn't own Avery? No.


You completely missed my point. If you have a dog aggressive pup, you should be prepared to live without obedience classes. You should know how to handle your dog without a class. My Doberman is dog selective and she's in SAR training with other dogs. If there is a dog or dogs there that she reacts to, I take precautions.


lauren43 said:


> Too late. I love pits and their mixes, nothing is going to change that. Not even DA.


That's fine, although I'm not sure you can honestly say you love them. You don't try to change someone you love.


lauren43 said:


> Ok If they don't have to be DA to be champion fighters then why breed for DA. Clearly it wasn't always a necesity so why is it now, that just seems silly to me.


Where did I say I support breeding for DA? I don't. I'm against breeding _away_ from it. If you have a grade-A example of an APBT, proven and healthy, nobody should tell you he's not worthy to be bred because he's DA.


----------



## lauren43

CavePaws said:


> And Oso, was it you who said that you want a game bred dog and that you are okay with crating and rotating? Aren't you close enough to your current dog to feel sort of bad about _seeking out_ an extremely high drive DA pitbull and thus cutting down on the amount of time you get with your current dog?



Oso I was thinking the same thing. Esp with the fact your current boy is DA. All it takes is one mistake and you'd have quite a mess on your hands...are you worried about that? Or would you get this second dog after the current one has passed?


----------



## lauren43

@Cliffdog: Im sorry I guess I just don't see DA as a useful breed characteristic. If I ended up with a dog with DS/DA I would manage it.


----------



## Cliffdog

It's not really "useful" but it's something you deal with. I don't agree with changing the breed in any way, shape, or form. If a dog is an excellent example of the breed and happens to be dog friendly, then by all means, breed it. But don't exclude equally valid examples just because they're DA, and definitely don't start breeding simply for the sake of producing dog friendly APBTs.


----------



## kady05

CavePaws said:


> Kady, don't you show one of your dogs? The very pretty male with cropped ears in your signature, Sako. Is he dog aggressive? Just curious, as you haven't mentioned that he is.


Yes, I show Sako at AKC/UKC shows. No, as of yet he is not DA. But he's not even a year old yet, so that could change. His mom is pretty "hot" with certain dogs, yet she has managed to get her AKC CH & UKC GRCH, so it's very manageable. 

I'm not really going to waste my time commenting anymore. I will say that I'm one that wouldn't go seek out a DA dog, that's why I chose not to get an APBT and got an Amstaff (even though there are still many Amstaffs that are DA). If DA happens, it happens.


----------



## committed2excellence

I was staying out of this one as an APBT owner. However, you just set us all- APBT owners, showers, fanciers, trainers back with that comment. OK, I GET IT. There is a subset of APBT culture that can't let the old days die. I'm trying to understand why some of you think that because your dog is dog aggressive that make him "REAL". Are you saying because I have dogs that work and show and do therapy and obedience and personal protection and just because they don't buck up at the site of another dog that means they aren't "REAL" APBTs? Come on. With everything that has happened with our breed from maulings to the old dogmen to mike vick, we CAN NOT afford to keep fueling the fire. Keep that kind of talk on your ADBA boards with your friends that think it's cool for dogs to be hot. Don't come on a board where some of the people already have a bad impression of the breed and don't understand the breed and fuel their fire. See, here is the question you have to answer. You say you are getting a game bred dog. This is a dog that somewhere in his lineage is bred for fighting. Dog fighting is a felony in all 50 states now. WHAT ARE YOUR PLANS FOR THIS DOG? ARE YOU A DOG FIGHTER? Hopefully, you will answer No and you do not fight dogs. Next question, in everyday life in your home, WHAT EXACTLY IS IS THAT YOUR GAME BRED DOG IS GOING TO BE ABLE TO DO SO MUCH BETTER THAN MY DOGS WHO ARE BRED FROM WORKING STOCK? WHAT MAKES THIS DOG AGGRESSIVE DOG A USEFUL COMMODITY IN YOUR EVERYDAY LIFE? I'm willing to make a friendly prediction as I often do that at 18 months I can put my best up against your best and we can choose from several disciplines: weight pull, dock diving,lure coursing, obedience, agility, retrieves, swimming, tug of war, springpole hangtime. You can think of some more events if this doesn't cover the scope of your dog's talents and I will guarantee wins on my end. At that point, I will ask the question again, WHAT IS IT THAT MAKES THIS TRAIT DESIRABLE? How was your dog able to perform on a higher level than mine. I will win every time. As I said, your comments make all of us look bad and you should temper your words in certain settings. However, that probably wouldn't be "keeping it real". I guess I will take my fake APBTs and keep averaging 10 titles a year while you guys have your dog aggressive dogs looking tough on the sidelines. I've done martial arts since I was a child and I welcome physical contact. I've also met some of the "great dogmen". Heck I have pictures with Floyd Boudreaux on my facebook page. I also have pictures with Mike Vick. I always ask myself how many of these folks would get into a ring against a matched opponent week after week and fight to the death. After 20 years my answer still comes up the same-Hellnaw they wouldn't and neither would you. 



Oso said:


> Why shouldnt it be? Its the standard for the whole breed? Thats like me saying I dont like the way sight hounds hunt rabbits and have prey drive, so I think they should just change that standard and not allow those dogs that show prey drive to be bred.
> 
> Thats whats wrong with this country, instead of people getting good information and passing on truths, we have people who dont like the way things work so they want to change it all together not teach people how to deal with it. Its not a bad thing. I plan on getting a game bred APBT and I hope he is DA, otherwise I just got myself a cold dog thats not what the breed is.
> Its like me shooting for a Border Collie that doesnt need to work, or a hound that wont hunt..
> 
> I dont think we need to change the breed, Amstaffs have proven that doesnt work, I think we need to educate the public and encourage them to learn about the breed before they get it, and if they get one they need to still be educated about them and their high energy and the DA.


----------



## Maxy24

The reason I don't think they should be breeding away from DA is because I feel that they would have to sacrifice some other aspect of the dog's temperament or health. If they didn't sacrifice anything else then I feel like the gene pool would shrink considerably and by default make very unhealthy dogs. I do however like to see titles on all of a breeders dogs so that I know, even if there is some DA, it's clearly manageable and not making the dog impossible to have out and do things with.

I certainly don't think DA is something to breed FOR, that's ridiculous. But I'd hate to see the breed become terribly unhealthy or loose some awesome aspect of it's temperament in a quest to eliminate DA.

And just for the record, APBTs are not the only dog breeds with a higher propensity for DA. Most terrier breed and guardian breeds also have it (though in guardian breeds it is often same sex).


----------



## xellil

committed2excellence said:


> I was staying out of this one as an APBT owner. However, you just set us all- APBT owners, showers, fanciers, trainers back with that comment. OK, I GET IT. There is a subset of APBT culture that can't let the old days die. I'm trying to understand why some of you think that because your dog is dog aggressive that make him "REAL". Are you saying because I have dogs that work and show and do therapy and obedience and personal protection and just because they don't buck up at the site of another dog that means they aren't "REAL" APBTs? Come on.


You said exactly what I've been trying to say, only 1000 times better.


----------



## Dude and Bucks Mamma

I stopped at page 5. 

I would do anything to break up a serious fight while at the same time doing anything to not be bitten. In many places, even if the dog bite was not aimed at you but another dog, it still counts as a dog bite. I will not let my dog be mauled to death but I refuse to be bitten badly enough for an er visit where they can typically identify a dog bite. The end result (and I have had this happen to more than one friend) is the dog being put to death because it was being a dog and it just didn't get along with another dog... A rant about "dangerous dogs"... Why is it not ok to allow a dog who has bitten another chance with another family with more experience but it is ok to release a known rapist, child molester, sex offender, etc back on the streets??? Humans can choose between right and wrong. Dogs act on instinct. Humans are allowed to argue and fight but dogs are put to death immediately or, at most, one warning. UGH! 

Anyway, as far as the same sex fights... We have always had males or one male and one female. No fights. Ever. Dude and Buck used to get into it a bit when Buck was a puppy but he has since learned where Dude's boundaries are and we haven't had even a minor scuffle in a LONG time. Both are intact. I think it is more common for females to get into it.

Glad to hear they are both ok, Muttkip. Just carefully reintroduce them but I am sure they have mostly forgotten about it by now.


----------



## CavePaws

Cliffdog said:


> It's not really "useful" but it's something you deal with. I don't agree with changing the breed in any way, shape, or form. If a dog is an excellent example of the breed and happens to be dog friendly, then by all means, breed it. But don't exclude equally valid examples just because they're DA, and definitely don't start breeding simply for the sake of producing dog friendly APBTs.


From what I gather, the breed standard calls for DA. At least SOME form of DA. So, breeding a non-DA APBT, in all of you "but it's the breed standard!" people's eyes, should not be acceptable. That would be breeding against the breed standard and away from what you all seem to stand for. Most breeders breed to improve the physical standard and temperment of the breed. In your opinion, you don't have a true pitbull unless they have some form of DA.

Oh, and not taking your DA dog to classes is the LAST thing I would suggest. There are steps to getting your DA dog out into the general public; and I'm sorry but not every dog owner is equipped with the two ton brain that you are, Cliffdog. So, not everyone who acquires a dog is going to know right off the bat how to handle DA. It is when they realize their dog is DA, and want to do something about it, that they should be seeking counsel from someone who has dealt with it many times over. Taking classes is one of the most common things suggested for truly DA dogs. What happens is we get them to a point where they can focus on their owner and tolerate the presence of multiple on leash dogs, and then put them in a classroom environment. My DA dog is very close to getting her CGC, the only issue we had in achieving this was that she showed reluctance at being pet by a stranger. My boss is the one grading and she won't pass any of my dogs unless they go above and beyond the criteria, a pull back of the head was what disqualified us. So I work with it, but I have been taking my very DA dog to classes since she was a puppy. She always showed signs of being aggressive towards other puppies, and always showed signs of being fearful towards humans. I worked with it and what I got out of this was a dog who couldn't give a sh*t about other dogs in classes or shows because her eyes are riveted upon me. We are a team. I work very hard to make her at least act like a civilized dog in public situations. 

I guess, what I am getting at, is that this whole acceptation of DA is just alien to me. It really is just out of my world. I have worked so hard to make my dog act according to the social norm and here there are people who are okay with DA actually being bred into dogs. I shouldn't be shocked. I don't know why I am. I guess it is because I work very hard, every day, to make my dog acceptable to people and make damn straight that people understand not every dog has to be dog friendly. I just think that this is giving DA dog owners a bad reputation, thinking it is an okay (and for some of you even think positive)trait. Sure, it is manageable...But would I choose for Indi to not want to literally kill every strange dog she lays eyes upon? It sure as hell would be a lot more convenient. She is an amazing working dog and her future is bright because she is in the right hands. A dog like her would have been PTS under the age of 6 months with most normal people. Sorry, but I hate seeing all these dogs at the shelters, coming in with behavioral issue after behavioral issue - some genetic, that cannot and never will be "fixed". No one wants to work with them, and subsequently because of genetics, they are going to be killed. I am looking at this not from a "breed" perspective, but from a dog enthusiast perspective. I love all dogs, purebred and mixed breed dogs. I hate seeing dogs die. I am seeing dogs die because of this problem. Saying that these dogs should be kept in better hands won't solve the issue. It seems really nothing will as humans are usually ignorant and irresponsible and lack the competence to actually research and put time and effort into managing aggressive dogs properly.

I've had my ego drug through hell and back because of the way Indi acted before I had a true handle on her aggression. You know how isolated I was made to feel because my dog would cue in on another dog that was maybe 50 feet away and try to charge? She won't tolerate ANY dog who even looks at her for too long. I've had to do some serious management issues with her at home. She is in no way perfect with the dogs she lives with, all of them seem to have a distinct understanding of her moodiness, and she does give MANY warnings before actually snapping. I don't leave my dogs out, unattended together, I realized that was a bad idea as soon as she laid tooth upon one of the dogs she lived with.


----------



## xellil

My dog class had several aggressive dogs in it. The trainer was working more with the owners, and not the dogs. Most did ok, but there was one woman whose dog just seemed to get worse and worse. She was a horrible owner for that dog, she needed a dog like Snorkels.


----------



## CavePaws

committed2excellence said:


> I was staying out of this one as an APBT owner. However, you just set us all- APBT owners, showers, fanciers, trainers back with that comment. OK, I GET IT. There is a subset of APBT culture that can't let the old days die. I'm trying to understand why some of you think that because your dog is dog aggressive that make him "REAL". Are you saying because I have dogs that work and show and do therapy and obedience and personal protection and just because they don't buck up at the site of another dog that means they aren't "REAL" APBTs? Come on. With everything that has happened with our breed from maulings to the old dogmen to mike vick, we CAN NOT afford to keep fueling the fire. Keep that kind of talk on your ADBA boards with your friends that think it's cool for dogs to be hot. Don't come on a board where some of the people already have a bad impression of the breed and don't understand the breed and fuel their fire. See, here is the question you have to answer. You say you are getting a game bred dog. This is a dog that somewhere in his lineage is bred for fighting. Dog fighting is a felony in all 50 states now. WHAT ARE YOUR PLANS FOR THIS DOG? ARE YOU A DOG FIGHTER? Hopefully, you will answer No and you do not fight dogs. Next question, in everyday life in your home, WHAT EXACTLY IS IS THAT YOUR GAME BRED DOG IS GOING TO BE ABLE TO DO SO MUCH BETTER THAN MY DOGS WHO ARE BRED FROM WORKING STOCK? WHAT MAKES THIS DOG AGGRESSIVE DOG A USEFUL COMMODITY IN YOUR EVERYDAY LIFE? I'm willing to make a friendly prediction as I often do that at 18 months I can put my best up against your best and we can choose from several disciplines: weight pull, dock diving,lure coursing, obedience, agility, retrieves, swimming, tug of war, springpole hangtime. You can think of some more events if this doesn't cover the scope of your dog's talents and I will guarantee wins on my end. At that point, I will ask the question again, WHAT IS IT THAT MAKES THIS TRAIT DESIRABLE? How was your dog able to perform on a higher level than mine. I will win every time. As I said, your comments make all of us look bad and you should temper your words in certain settings. However, that probably wouldn't be "keeping it real". I guess I will take my fake APBTs and keep averaging 10 titles a year while you guys have your dog aggressive dogs looking tough on the sidelines. I've done martial arts since I was a child and I welcome physical contact. I've also met some of the "great dogmen". Heck I have pictures with Floyd Boudreaux on my facebook page. I also have pictures with Mike Vick. I always ask myself how many of these folks would get into a ring against a matched opponent week after week and fight to the death. After 20 years my answer still comes up the same-Hellnaw they wouldn't and neither would you.


I seriously cannot commend you enough for being the kind of dog owner that you are. Your thoughts as an APBT owner are invaluable to this conversation and show an open minded, different perspective to the discussion. Thank you for being here and actually touching this with a 10 foot stick. Love it.


----------



## committed2excellence

A buddy of mine and I spoke this morning on the topic. I am going to quote his text verbatim.

"Well unfortunately in most areas the dog aggression is as responsible for BSL as human aggression. People think of these dogs as monsters and what once gained them fame is now getting them put to sleep. It's somehow being able to tone that dog aggression while keeping the prey drive is the important part. For their own good. If we don't evolve this breed it will eventually be gone and people aren't taking that to heart". Also, Cavepaws I put a picture up just for you in the thread about attack sleeves


----------



## Cliffdog

I'm done with this thread. All I see is people who don't know jack s*** about APBTs acting like they're cool stuff. I don't know jack s*** about Black Russian Terriers so I don't go around acting like I do. That's what you all are doing.

Oh yeah, committed2excellence... Let me guess, UKC? Lol, have fun with your Bullies and AmStaffs. If you're ever at a real APBT show, look me up!


----------



## xellil

Cliffdog said:


> I'm done with this thread. All I see is people who don't know jack s*** about APBTs acting like they're cool stuff. I don't know jack s*** about Black Russian Terriers so I don't go around acting like I do. That's what you all are doing.
> 
> Oh yeah, committed2excellence... Let me guess, UKC? Lol, have fun with your Bullies and AmStaffs. If you're ever at a real APBT show, look me up!


you mean the ones with the big pen and the people passing money around?


----------



## RachelsaurusRexU

I can tell you from experience that dog aggression ABSOLUTELY plays a huge role in BSL. Last year, our town council was trying to impose BSL after a couple of dog on dog incidents involving pit bull type dogs. All of us at animal control love pit bulls and fought against it, and my boss was at every town council meeting disputing their arguments. One of the points they focused most on was that if a dog goes after another dog, "a child will be next". Most people don't realize that DA (granted, these few cases were just isolated incidents) and HA aren't related...they think if a dog has an incident it's suddenly a bloodthirsty beast who wants to maul everything that moves. We even had trainers and behaviorists come to speak against it and the town council and its supporters still would not let go of that absurd claim. I'm sure it's the same ignorant and misinformed crap everywhere. Luckily, the town council DID NOT succeed 

So "LMAO LMAO LMAO", please explain how DA does not effect BSL.


----------



## RachelsaurusRexU

Cliffdog said:


> I'm done with this thread. All I see is people who don't know jack s*** about APBTs acting like they're cool stuff. I don't know jack s*** about Black Russian Terriers so I don't go around acting like I do. That's what you all are doing.
> 
> Oh yeah, committed2excellence... Let me guess, UKC? Lol, have fun with your Bullies and AmStaffs. If you're ever at a real APBT show, look me up!


Okay, put on your big boy pants and learn to gracefully accept that you have no valid argument instead of flinging petty, condescending crap at everyone who disagrees with you.


----------



## Cliffdog

Also, one last thing... I highly recommend you join a Pit Bull forum and have this discussion. Pretty much any Pit Bull forum. The majority of people with experience in these dogs will say that while DA is not something to be bred _for_, it's not something to be bred _against_, either.


----------



## xellil

Isn't it odd how when people say they are done with a thread, they really aren't?


----------



## committed2excellence

I'm a member of numerous APBT forums and I even own one. I wouldn't care WHAT a gazillion people said. I maintain that people who get on boards such as these and make comments glorifying dog aggression set us back. If you'd like to open the books and compare resumes and who knows who and who has done what with the dogs, I welcome it. My record will continue to speak for itself and love me or hate me, you can not deny what I do day in and day out for this breed in the areas of show, working, and rescue. And as far as your dumbass comment about UKC, check out the next issue of the Gazette which to those who do not know is the magazine for the game dog people and the magazine of the AMERICAN DOG BREEDERS ASSOCIATION. You will find ME and MY DOG AND MY TEAMMATE AND HIS DOG FEATURED AT THE ADBA NATIONALS HELD IN CLEBURNE TEXAS A FEW WEEKS AGO. How much more REAL do you want me to get JERK? Check your facts then come talk to me



Cliffdog said:


> Also, one last thing... I highly recommend you join a Pit Bull forum and have this discussion. Pretty much any Pit Bull forum. The majority of people with experience in these dogs will say that while DA is not something to be bred _for_, it's not something to be bred _against_, either.


----------



## committed2excellence

Furthermore, JERK, we pull APA, ADBA and Irondog. I just came from ADBA Nationals. Where were you? What did you win. What REAL shows do you attend? Please let me know so that I can look back at the standings and see if you actually brought a dog or if you arm chair quarterbacked just like the rest of the idiots. PLEEEEASE, I beg you to let me know when you are going to be at a show. In case you didn't know, in the last 6 months we have traveled to Cali, DC, Texas, Charlotte. We go everywhere and people know us. Who are you again??



Cliffdog said:


> I'm done with this thread. All I see is people who don't know jack s*** about APBTs acting like they're cool stuff. I don't know jack s*** about Black Russian Terriers so I don't go around acting like I do. That's what you all are doing.
> 
> Oh yeah, committed2excellence... Let me guess, UKC? Lol, have fun with your Bullies and AmStaffs. If you're ever at a real APBT show, look me up!


----------



## committed2excellence

Just so everyone knows, I'm calling this clown "Cliffdog" out. He says that he attends real shows. What I am asking him to do is to give me the date and location of the show. The way our registries work, you can go back and look at the show and win, lose or draw you can see who was there with what dog and how they did. I have a sneaking suspicion that this guy will not show up on any show roles. People like him who say that dogs that don't fight aren't "real" are everything that is bad for this breed today. They are less than zero and would rather have these dogs banned. Too much ego and not enough manhood worrying about whose dog is the toughest. Shameful


----------



## catahoulamom

Cliffdog, is your APBT even purebred? The one with the docked tail? Not that it matters, I'm just wondering. You never answered my question on your older thread. I've never seen an APBT with a docked tail, I know you're extremely into breed standard so I'm just wondering if she was a rescue or why you decided to dock her tail yourself.


----------



## Muttkip

Speaking of ADBA shows, I was just at the Cartersville, Georgia one yesterday and I saw A LOT of DA and 'HOT' dogs! It was amazing to watch the breed true to the standard and I do believe it is wrong to take one trait from the breed, because when start to breed away from the standard you get a totally different dog. They've already tried breeding the dog aggression out, hince why we now have those ugly blue hippos called American Bullies.


----------



## committed2excellence

Not exactly true on the American bully or whatever they are calling themselves these days. Speaking to some of the guys behind the camelot and razors edge dogs, I found out that they originally added in mastiff type dogs because they wanted a 90-100 pound [] dog. I don't agree with what goes on now with intentionally breeding faults,etc. However, I'm just as upset with the kid on the corner with the saggy pants and the 16 inch 80 pound bully dog with the spiked collar as I am with the 40 year living in the woods testing dogs and stealing people's family pets and using them as bait dogs. At the end of the day when we see an APBT on the news, it doesn't matter if it's bully or standard or blue or red, we all sink together.



Muttkip said:


> Speaking of ADBA shows, I was just at the Cartersville, Georgia one yesterday and I saw A LOT of DA and 'HOT' dogs! It was amazing to watch the breed true to the standard and I do believe it is wrong to take one trait from the breed, because when start to breed away from the standard you get a totally different dog. They've already tried breeding the dog aggression out, hince why we now have those ugly blue hippos called American Bullies.


----------



## Rodeo

DA can happen in any breed, should it be desired? No. If it happens it should be dealt with. It's sad to see people say they love the breed but attack others who clearly are doing well by their dogs. A level headed dog who still has that "never quit" attitude and loves his job means WAY more to me than a ding-bat that's aggressive.


----------



## Celt

Not all fighting dogs were DA. There are multiple instances of famous fighting dogs from history being able to run around the yard and play with other dogs. The first that comes to mind is Cates' GR CH Nigerino. Not to support dog fighting but wouldn't this statement mean that the dogs were trained to fight and not DA. Perhaps, breeding DA dogs was the "bad" trainers way of getting "winners".


----------



## CavePaws

I seriously am just floored that people think it is a positive trait in and of itself. I take a lot of heat keeping a DA dog around, and I don't go around boasting about how "BA" my DA dog is. Wtf. So what if she doesn't like other dogs...It's just that, she doesn't like other dogs, and it's manageable and I still love her. But hell, if I could fix the issue and stop her from feeling the need to go at it with every dog on the planet, then ya, I would. She looks like a "friendly lab" with a curly tail. Of course it is not just pitbulls who are predisposed to aggressive tendancies. Tons of guardian breeds and working breeds are predisposed to aggression. I see dogs of all shapes and sizes come in for aggression. Hell, a Shih tzu rescue dog that came into our facility was so HA that we had board him with us an entire year and constantly work everyday with him; and he still wasn't fit to be adopted out. I actually cried the day the rescue organization came back to evaluate him, they wanted to put him to sleep that day. The owners of the kennel decided to keep him and I love him, they renamed him Happy.  

I think it is so much more cool seeing dogs that are actually trained to have complete control over their tenacity like Klamarie's dog and Commiteds; seeing bite work and protection work in action truly amazes me. I couldn't give a crap about anyone's DA dog wanting to hurt another persons dog. I see nothing positive in that. I like seeing dogs that can actually do something kind of cool with their aggressive drive. Not dogs that _only _want to kill every other dog on the block and put in the wrong hands will be allowed to. Idk, I just think that the whole stereotypical "BA DA" dog attitude is a crock of sh*t and needs to be dumped ASAP because it's giving DA owners a really bad rap...That's right, I'm rather concerned about my image as a good dog owner. And I don't want people thinking I own an out of control monster, either.


----------



## Rodeo

Celt said:


> Not all fighting dogs were DA. There are multiple instances of famous fighting dogs from history being able to run around the yard and play with other dogs. The first that comes to mind is Cates' GR CH Nigerino. Not to support dog fighting but wouldn't this statement mean that the dogs were trained to fight and not DA. Perhaps, breeding DA dogs was the "bad" trainers way of getting "winners".


I've seen pictures of fighting dogs laying around in the back yard with the family's other dogs... That's something people don't think about.


----------



## committed2excellence

Exactly. DA does NOT always come with the territory. Often times it is just an excuse for losers not to do anything with their dogs. "Oh, uh, my dog is hot so I can't have him in any obedience or other activities where there might be dogs." Child please



Celt said:


> Not all fighting dogs were DA. There are multiple instances of famous fighting dogs from history being able to run around the yard and play with other dogs. The first that comes to mind is Cates' GR CH Nigerino. Not to support dog fighting but wouldn't this statement mean that the dogs were trained to fight and not DA. Perhaps, breeding DA dogs was the "bad" trainers way of getting "winners".


----------



## nupe

WOW.....Good to see the lively discussion!!!...I see alot of posters assuming DA means the owner is co signing Dog fighting or something bad like that...from What I have read in the last 20 pages they are not, but saying its in the breed standard thats all....Hell thats like taking away the protective nature of the Doberman Pinscher!!...and I know I would not like that!!!


----------



## luvMyBRT

CavePaws said:


> I seriously am just floored that people think it is a positive trait in and of itself. I take a lot of heat keeping a DA dog around, and I don't go around boasting about how "BA" my DA dog is. Wtf. So what if she doesn't like other dogs...It's just that, she doesn't like other dogs, and it's manageable and I still love her. But hell, if I could fix the issue and stop her from feeling the need to go at it with every dog on the planet, then ya, I would. She looks like a "friendly lab" with a curly tail. Of course it is not just pitbulls who are predisposed to aggressive tendancies. Tons of guardian breeds and working breeds are predisposed to aggression. I see dogs of all shapes and sizes come in for aggression. Hell, a Shih tzu rescue dog that came into our facility was so HA that we had board him with us an entire year and constantly work everyday with him; and he still wasn't fit to be adopted out. I actually cried the day the rescue organization came back to evaluate him, they wanted to put him to sleep that day. The owners of the kennel decided to keep him and I love him, they renamed him Happy.
> 
> I think it is so much more cool seeing dogs that are actually trained to have complete control over their tenacity like Klamarie's dog and Commiteds; seeing bite work and protection work in action truly amazes me. I couldn't give a crap about anyone's DA dog wanting to hurt another persons dog. I see nothing positive in that. I like seeing dogs that can actually do something kind of cool with their aggressive drive. Not dogs that _only _want to kill every other dog on the block and put in the wrong hands will be allowed to. Idk, I just think that the whole stereotypical "BA DA" dog attitude is a crock of sh*t and needs to be dumped ASAP because it's giving DA owners a really bad rap...That's right, I'm rather concerned about my image as a good dog owner. And I don't want people thinking I own an out of control monster, either.


Kelly, your posts are great.
Yes, other guardian breeds can easily be or become DA. The Black Russian Terrier is one of them. 
I don't consider Duncan dog aggressive, but he will not back down from a challenge. He is extremely dominant and doesn't put up with rude, obnoxious behavior from strange dogs. Because of this he is trained (and very well I might add) with the "leave it" command. When given this command he knows to ignore the dog and focus on me. 

I don't want to give anyone the chance to associate a BRT with anything negative. That is why Duncan has been to numerous obedience classes and is trained well.....so that he can be a great ambassador for our breed. :0)


----------



## xellil

luvMyBRT said:


> Kelly, your posts are great.
> Yes, other guardian breeds can easily be or become DA. The Black Russian Terrier is one of them.
> I don't consider Duncan dog aggressive, but he will not back down from a challenge. He is extremely dominant and doesn't put up with rude, obnoxious behavior from strange dogs. Because of this he is trained (and very well I might add) with the "leave it" command. When given this command he knows to ignore the dog and focus on me.
> 
> I don't want to give anyone the chance to associate a BRT with anything negative. That is why Duncan has been to numerous obedience classes and is trained well.....so that he can be a great ambassador for our breed. :0)


i think there's a difference between dog aggressive and dominant/strong willed. I've had alot of those kinds of dogs. It's when one dog is screaming and trying to get away and the other is trying to kill him that I think there's really a problem.


----------



## luvMyBRT

xellil said:


> i think there's a difference between dog aggressive and dominant/strong willed. I've had alot of those kinds of dogs. It's when one dog is screaming and trying to get away and the other is trying to kill him that I think there's really a problem.


I totally agree. There is a big difference. But to the average idiot dog owner (and no, I'm not talking about any of you) they could easily think that dominant/assertive behaviour is being DA. And, trust me, when a 100+ pound BRT wants to assert himself it can look pretty intimidating to the average person that isn't familiar with the breed (or similar type breeds).

Duncan and I don't go to dog parks and other places that are similar. I have to protect Duncan from the average person thinking he is aggressive/mean/DA or what have you.....because he isn't, he just thinks he has to keep everyone under control....lol.


----------



## CavePaws

xellil said:


> i think there's a difference between dog aggressive and dominant/strong willed. I've had alot of those kinds of dogs. It's when one dog is screaming and trying to get away and the other is trying to kill him that I think there's really a problem.


Hell yes, it is a HUGE problem. I don't Know how anyone can just look past it completely. I have had to try to kick indi off of a dog that got off leash and charged her, literally leaping ontop of my tied up dog. indi had been given it one huge growl so who knows why it even continued. She flipped the dog and went for it's hind leg then abdomen. Now, normally people want to blame the aggressive dog, because obviously when they get going there is no stopping them until you literally grab the dog off of the other dog. I cried for an hour straight. The dog needed stitches, of course I paid for the bill, it's only common courtesy. The other owner did not blame Indi, but if course she was sad it happened. Since then any agility class she goes to she is crated or put in an xpen. I simply will never allow her to be put in such a horrible position since then.

How can people not see the hurt da causes to the owners and dog involved. I won't ever forget the sound that poor dog made, so afraid cause my dog is an a** who does not know when to stop; it literally makes my heart ache, she is so precious to me and now I won't put her in that position ever again. I even went so far as to try putting her on medicine temporarily to try to rewire the way she felt about other dogs. Eventually, I realized meds could only help so much. There is simply no hope in making her into a dogs dog. I FINALLY came to terms completely. But what is so crazy is wanting a DA dog. Literally wanting these incidents to happen in some way. Eventually, if you don't care enough about it an accident will happen at some point in the da dogs life and it could be horrible. I understand pitbulls are extremely athletic, hard driving dogs and they are excellent for a person who wants to do a lot of sports with them. I understand wanting this, but if some GAMEBRED dogs are not DA then why is DA so damn important. You guys can't seem to make up your minds, apparently you can't have a true pitbull without some level of DA...but suddenly some of the best fighters were okay with the other family dogs? And apparently breeding away from DA is against the breed standard and you won't be left with a true "Apbt"...logic behind this?


----------



## xellil

CavePaws said:


> Hell yes, it is a HUGE problem. I don't Know how anyone can just look past it completely. I have had to kick indi off of a dog that got off leash and charged her, literally leapt ontop of her. She had been giving it one huge growl so who knows why it even continued. She flipped the dog and went for it's hind leg then abdomen. Now, normally people want to blame the aggressive dog, because obviously when they get going there is no stopping until you literally grab the dog off of the other dog. the other. I cried for an hour straight. The dog needed stitches, of course I paid for the bill, it's only common courtesy. The other ownerdid not blame Indi, but if course she was sad it happened. Since then any agility class she goes to she is crated or put in an xpen. I simply will never allow her to be put in such a horrible position since then.


Yes, yes, and yes! It's horrible what happened to you. 
And that owner is lucky - the loose dog that comes up to a strange dog is really risking its life, like the fellow who lets his little dog come into the street and up to Rebel. If Rebel was Indi that little dog would be dead and even though it's not your fault, you feel just as horrible. If I hit a child in my car who ran out into the street it would ruin my life whether I was at fault or not.

And I also agree that it's nuts to desire DA in a dog. There's only one reason for it. High prey drive, determination, tenacity, etc. - you can have all that in a dog without him wanting to kill all comers. Personally I really do believe it's some kind of macho thing, to have a dog that wants to fight.


----------



## CavePaws

I was seriously trying to be semi open minded about this...now I'm just completely pissed knowing so many peopl support da. All it ever does is nothing positive for the dog and owner. Why support it unless you actually like the outcome of Da...


----------



## xellil

I have to admit that when I had my pit/chow mix I childishly felt like my cojones were a little bigger. And i am a female. Sad to say I was subject to those feelings, even though I would have been horrified had he actually gotten into a fight with another dog.


----------



## committed2excellence

​It is a macho thing. It effects men and women strangely enough. In my early 20s when I was big into going to the large parks in Atlanta with my guys I got approached regularly about fighting my dog and I was asked did my dogs fight. I would reply that I did not but that I did keep two pair of 16oz boxing gloves in my truck(which I did) and I never got any takers. I will add another twist to any already interesting story. I have a 14 yr old retired French Ring dog who is advanced obedience trained and has a CD and CGC. This was my first APBT and those who trained with us in his younger days will still vouch for him being one of the best EVER. This dog has saved my life on two occasions when I was younger and dumber and we have a bond that I don't know if I will ever have with another animal again. I can take him anywhere with me and he has years of training and experience to assess any situation and any threat. However, this dog has a couple of bodies on him. I was never around when this happened and I could shoot myself for allowing novices and inept people to care for him. I used to do my offleash obedience proofing in parks with hundreds of dogs running around. My dog would get jumped on by other dogs. He was never the aggressor but he never had any problem defending himself and he was very good around other dogs male or female irrespective of breed. One day at about three years old, the mentality changed from defending himself to wanting to kill other dogs. I blame myself for sticking him in bad situations and making poor choices. When it came to his personal protection work, he would always attack the man before the dog but in average situations he wanted to hurt other dogs. I used an e-collar and some of the hardest corrections that I have ever used and will never use again to "fix" the problem. To this day when he is with me, he is well mannered and you would never know that he is DA. If I am not around, there will always be a problem. This dog could easily have been a Utility dog and possibly an obedience champion. I was not comfortable even moving on the the CD-X because I couldn't trust him doing an out of site stay with a group of dogs. This thread has now come full circle. Yes, I show and train and work APBTS and I do not tolerate dog aggression. I despise, even look down upon people who own DA dogs and applaud it or don't attempt to fix it. However, my best canine friend is also extremely DA and for the past 10 years I have had to live with it. It's a pain in the rear. It sucks and it is one of the worst inconveniences that you can imagine. I hate it and from the time my pups come home now we do work so that I can be assured that I will NEVER have to deal with it again. That is my story.



xellil said:


> Personally I really do believe it's some kind of macho thing, to have a dog that wants to fight.


----------



## kady05

CavePaws said:


> I was seriously trying to be semi open minded about this...now I'm just completely pissed knowing so many peopl support da. All it ever does is nothing positive for the dog and owner. Why support it unless you actually like the outcome of Da...


Perhaps you should try to find an ADBA show near you, and go talk to the owners and breeders there. Maybe they'll be able to shed some light on it. I've never been to an ADBA show, but those are the types of APBT's that are more known to have DA.


----------



## CavePaws

kady05 said:


> Perhaps you should try to find an ADBA show near you, and go talk to the owners and breeders there. Maybe they'll be able to shed some light on it. I've never been to an ADBA show, but those are the types of APBT's that are more known to have DA.


Lol, to be quite honest, I couldn't give a rats a** about anyone who's opinion is that DA is okay and dog aggression is merely a testament to how good "this pitbull is" or that one. There is simply a large difference in morality between anyone who supports it and myself. We are obviously just multiple universes apart from each other and will NEVER agree on this. Period. And I'm not happy about saying that it is agreeing to disagreeing - because it is pathetic anyone is even standing by and giving a thumbs up to DA.


----------



## kady05

CavePaws said:


> Lol, to be quite honest, I couldn't give a rats a** about anyone who's opinion is that DA is okay and dog aggression is merely a testament to how good "this pitbull is" or that one. There is simply a large difference in morality between anyone who supports it and myself. We are obviously just multiple universes apart from each other and will NEVER agree on this. Period. And I'm not happy about saying that it is agreeing to disagreeing - because it is pathetic anyone is even standing by and giving a thumbs up to DA.


It was just a suggestion, no need to get snappy. You're the one saying you don't understand how people could want a DA dog, I was giving you an outlet on where you could ask.

And I wasn't one of the people who said they wanted a dog that was DA, so chill out.


----------



## CavePaws

Oso said:


> Pit Bulls were not meant to be anything other than a dog on dog combat gladiator, take that heart and soul out of the dog and you have nothing remotely like a pit bull.
> Again they have been trying for a long time to get Amstaffs completely away from DA, see how thats working for them? Why breed something out that can be controlled with simple training and exercise?


This statement is the most notable one I've read that really really pisses me off now that I know _some_ ch. fighting APBT (supposedly the top examples of the breed) were okay with dogs and had to be actually trained to go to war with another dog. Ugh. I just don't get it...

And sorry Kady, but you were supporting the people who are okay with DA. It was only natural for me to have redirected aggression towards someone who supports it. What I've been through with my DA dog makes me sick that ANYONE on this planet enjoys that kind of crap or even tolerates people who do.


----------



## kady05

CavePaws said:


> And sorry Kady, but you were supporting the people who are okay with DA. It was only natural for me to have redirected aggression towards someone who supports it. What I've been through with my DA dog makes me sick that ANYONE on this planet enjoys that kind of crap or even tolerates people who do.


I just read back from page 12, no where do I see where I supported anyone who was okay with DA. Have I said that it's a breed trait of Bully breeds? Yes, because it IS. Have I said we should be breeding it out? No, I didn't comment on that topic, just mentioned that singling them out for DA was like singling a BC out for having a herding instinct. But I haven't said we should be breeding for it either. 

I don't want to own a DA dog! I like my little "pack" and how they sleep together every night and have no issues with each other because I properly manage them. However, I'm fully aware that could change any day.


----------



## GoingPostal

Whole argument is rather silly seeing as a non DA pit bull is just as capable of getting into a fight and causing a huge amount of damage, and just because a dog hates other dogs doesn't mean they will ever harm one. We had a scuffle tonight, flippin dogs decided to fight over an imaginary piece of food and while my DA dog is screaming and carrying on, a dog friendly one is putting punctures in his head. Female on male btw. Have never had a same sex scuffle so far. Thankfully dog #3 didn't bother to get up and we had them apart in half a minute or so but fact is even dogs who get along can get in a fight and hurt each other. Both of the dogs involved are rescues, one who caused damage is probably mixed with American Bulldog and I doubt either have anything but generations of pets being bred for money, just like the majority of "pit bulls" out there today, I'm willing to bet the number of people actually breeding highly DA dogs or even game bred dogs is very low in comparison to bybs breeding their dog friendly pets. It's just not that easy to just breed out a main trait like that, it's a terrier thing more than anything, they are just bigger and better at it. I had a rat terrier foster who was just like a mini pit bull when he decided he had something to fight over and the only dog my older female really takes issue with is a Boston female who wants to kill her. All of those dogs get along great with many others, they aren't DA. People want to start picking and choosing what's acceptable, personally I take a lot more issue with breeding dogs with defects, like dwarfism and brachycephalics, but I guess if it's cute it's ok if it harms dogs. If we are not breeding dogs who show any "aggression", there wouldn't be any left.


----------



## CorgiPaws

I don't have time to catch up with this entire thread, but I noticed a line being drawn, and I'm pretty sure I'm on the wrong side of it! Let me clarify where I stand:

I don't think that DA is at all a desirable or useful trait. 
BUT, I also think that when you try to breed something out of a heavily-effected breed you end up changing a lot more things, and not usually for the positive.
As it stands, APBT's are a generally healthy, hearty breed that is an excellent family pet, I'd hate to see those aspects change. 
I also find DA to be incredibly manageable and not have much of an impact on a dog's ability to be a sound companion or (in most cases) working dog. 
Also, no laws or breed standard will stop the dog fighting circuit, because most of those fools are also involved in breeding, and they won't give a hoot if the standard changes... they will still breed for what they want to. These people deserve to be shot. :smile:

For these reasons, I think that a serious attempt to breed the DA out of APBT's as a whole would have more of a negative impact than a positive one. Because I do not see DA has a huge issue, I do not think it would be worth it.


----------



## Sprocket

We had a scuffle tonight with my APBT. A friend brought their AS over and he growled at Gunner. 

Gunner ran away...end of scuffle :tongue:


----------



## Maxy24

> I don't have time to catch up with this entire thread, but I noticed a line being drawn, and I'm pretty sure I'm on the wrong side of it! Let me clarify where I stand:
> 
> I don't think that DA is at all a desirable or useful trait.
> BUT, I also think that when you try to breed something out of a heavily-effected breed you end up changing a lot more things, and not usually for the positive.
> As it stands, APBT's are a generally healthy, hearty breed that is an excellent family pet, I'd hate to see those aspects change.
> I also find DA to be incredibly manageable and not have much of an impact on a dog's ability to be a sound companion or (in most cases) working dog.
> Also, no laws or breed standard will stop the dog fighting circuit, because most of those fools are also involved in breeding, and they won't give a hoot if the standard changes... they will still breed for what they want to. These people deserve to be shot.
> 
> For these reasons, I think that a serious attempt to breed the DA out of APBT's as a whole would have more of a negative impact than a positive one. Because I do not see DA has a huge issue, I do not think it would be worth it.


My sentiments exactly.


----------



## Tahlz

Wow. This thread de-railed a bit.

CavePaws; I wanted to say I admire the fact you want to give HA dogs a chance. I believe they deserve chances as well. I know there are many dogs sitting in shelters without issues but in my book, all dogs deserve a chance. Of course a HA dog should be contained and handled right. *

I do own a fear aggressive dog and I know she is capable of biting some one if she was that afraid but I'm working with her and she's doing great. I can admit now, I wouldn't even want to trade her for the dog I really would love to have. I'm happy with her and I hope she's around for a long time. Sadly she's been like this since 8 weeks so it's something I'll always have to watch.*

Regarding DA in Pitbulls. I'll admit, I wish it was bred out, I'd have no problem with that. I accept that Pitbulls are more prone to being DA though and I'll be aware of that when I finally get one/or another bully breed. I owned a DA SBT and I hated he was DA but I managed it just fine. Serenity isn't DA but I think she could become DA since I don't get to socialize her. She is fearful/snappy of real pushy dog but fine with calm/placid dogs. I wish she wasn't but she doesn't need dog friends. It would just make life a bit easier. I wish she wasn't fearful, she'd be my 'perfect' dog if she was free of fear. In saying that, I adore her and wouldn't trade her for any other dog.


----------



## kady05

PuppyPaws said:


> Also, no laws or breed standard will stop the dog fighting circuit, because most of those fools are also involved in breeding, and they won't give a hoot if the standard changes... they will still breed for what they want to. These people deserve to be shot. :smile:


Thank you, that is what I said like.. 15 pages ago LOL. All this talk of "well the breed standard should change" blah, blah, blah, is NOT going to effect the BYB down the street who is peddling pups for the money. Those types could care less about the temperament of their dogs, which is also a big reason why we now have HA Pit Bulls roaming around.


----------



## minnieme

Does anyone know about a breed that was bred more for temperament than looks and then suffered from this alteration physically? I think it's a fascinating argument and one that makes a lot of sense (the domesticated silver fox experiment in Russia is an awesome example of these alterations; though I'm not aware that they are any less healthy than their feral counterparts). I'm not doubting it all, I just want to learn more about this! :smile:

Also, I agree that DA is totally manageable. HA would be very difficult for me to cope with -- not because I'm unwilling to give any dog a second chance, but because that takes a LOT of work that tbh....I wouldn't want to deal with. That's why no matter how sweet, I would never adopt a HA dog or potentially even an extremely DA dog. It has already been tough enough with a fearful dog who reacts by running away/cowering, not by lashing out (though I recognize that potential is always there). I am just so socially active with my dogs that I really am not interested in changing this lifestyle.


----------



## CavePaws

So, I just want to know, does anyone who does not support but is not against DA being the breed standard have ANY suggestions at all on how to cope with the current issues of: DA pitbulls filling shelters, DA pitbulls making it to the news because of dog fighting, DA pitbulls being viewed by many (ignorant) people around this country as complete monsters?

I preface this with saying, that of course I do not think of any DA dog as a monster. I don't expect any dog to get along with every dog. But the mere fact that DA is even "acceptable" to some people just awes me.

I can tell you all; DA is a HUGE behavioral problem that not a lot of people are going to want to cater to. I'd like to know how many of you actually have a DA dog who claim that the issue is so manageable. It is not conventional in any sense of the word. It is only even manageable because I have put the last two years of my life working extensively, every day, with my DA dog. Sorry, but if you're like me and like actually competing at events with your dogs, then ya, you would probably see where severely DA dogs can have huge issue. Indi would be far beyond where she is in agility right now if I had not had to spend the first 12 months of her life teaching her how to act like a civilized being tied 20 ft from another dog. She was horrible by 6 months old and it gave me very limited options as to with whom and where I could hang out with my doggy friends.

So, please, let me know...Does anyone have any inkling of an idea on a solution on this whole DA thing? Backyard breeders are not the only ones creating DA dogs. So, don't put all the blame on them. Anyone who cares at all about breeding for an even keel temperament should not be breeding _for _DA. And again no one who has claimed, "It's in the breed standard" and then turned around and said "But some of the best fighting APBTs were not DA" has given me a definite answer as to why DA just has to be part of the breed standard. Sure, you can expect it from the breed, but to say that it's a quality trait and shows the "purity" of your APBT. Well, to me that is just laughable.


----------



## Dude and Bucks Mamma

Cliffdog said:


> What purpose does prey drive or herding drive serve if you aren't working your dog? It's part of the breed. I don't want a version of the APBT that has been screwed around with, I want the real deal. I don't go to obedience classes because I can train my own dog (and anyone who can't should find a different breed) and I never ever take my dog off leash outside of our fenced yard except during SAR training because anything can happen.
> 
> If you don't like DA, that's just fine and dandy, there are about a thousand other breeds to choose from. I don't like a dog that's going to be howling all the time so I don't have a hound dog, I'm not going to get a hound dog and try to breed the vocality out of it.
> 
> ETA: Not all fighting dogs were DA, either, so don't pull that "why have a DA dog if you aren't going to fight it". There are multiple instances of famous fighting dogs from history being able to run around the yard and play with other dogs. The first that comes to mind is Cates' GR CH Nigerino.


I just have to say that hounds don't howl all the time. Buck is very quiet. I taught him to be that way. When he is playing and he is at the dog park, he can howl away because that's what they do. When there is someone a bit too close to our yard, howl away. But, he knows that there are times to howl and times to be quiet. Having a hound does not mean having a dog that howls all the time. That's silly, Cliff. They howl when they hunt, not just because.


----------



## committed2excellence

I will have to disagree on that one. The type of dog that you own depends on just how manageable dog aggression is. Having worked with top trainers and behavioralists, I can say with certainty that your garden variety pet dog DA is simple to deal with and even fix as opposed to a dog that is extremely driven hard dog. Trust me, if your dogs get into a scuffle and you can yell and scream and bring out the water hose and end it, you aren't dealing with true dog aggression. As far as the ability to be a working dog is concerned, next time there is a Schutzhund trial or a PSA trial or even a simple agility trial in your area, check it out. I can guarantee you that serious working folks with Mals and GSDs are not going to look kindly on the APBT people. They will shield their dogs, pick them up and make it a point to stay out of the way. Why? Because at some point that person experienced or knew someone who experienced the bad end of a dog aggressive APBT on the trial field. A dog who is truly aggressive and has not had the "whammy" put on him by a conscientious owner will NOT be able to work in certain settings. If dog aggression were that simple as task to manage you wouldn't have novices dropping these dogs off at the pound. Granted, this thread has shown me that not only does the public need more education on this topic, but you still have a large helping of owners or so called fanciers who don't have a clue either.



PuppyPaws said:


> I also find DA to be incredibly manageable and not have much of an impact on a dog's ability to be a sound companion or (in most cases) working dog.


----------



## GoingPostal

CavePaws said:


> So, I just want to know, does anyone who does not support but is not against DA being the breed standard have ANY suggestions at all on how to cope with the current issues of: DA pitbulls filling shelters, DA pitbulls making it to the news because of dog fighting, DA pitbulls being viewed by many (ignorant) people around this country as complete monsters?


Really, DA pit bulls are filling shelters because of people breeding to the standard? Don't think so, pit bulls are filling the shelters because of joe blow breeding pets irresponsibly and many shelters kill pit bulls right off the bat or put down ones who show DA or AA, which is ridiculous if you ask me since most pit bulls up for adoptions are young and maybe just haven't turned on yet, and killing dogs for acting like their breed is pretty shitty imo. The two dogs who fought yesterday were both adopted as dog friendly. The male came from an excellent shelter, I had to bring my other dog to meet/greet, they made sure we had crates and would be keeping them apart, made sure we had a breakstick and understood the breed. The problem comes when people don't bother to do any research and adopt a cute little pibble wibble and don't understand the dog might get into a fight or stop liking other dogs. The 2nd dog was a failed foster, tons of people interested in her, she's a pretty dog.  Most wanted a friend for their other dogs, to run loose and free and be buddies, sniffing butterflies or some nonsense. None wanted her once I brought up they could not leave her loose with other dogs or animals unattended, and that she may decide she dislikes dogs down the line and needs to be kept apart from them. She hadn't shown any aggression as a foster, had played with other strange dogs fine, but she's pushy and very confident and I would rather people be aware of what can happen than end up with a dead or badly injured dog. Week after we adopted her she tried to start crap over a dog bed, didn't go anywhere because I was right there, could have been bad in another home. But because she's not DA, she's a better or safer dog than my DA one? Don't see the logic. I don't see the logic in forcing a dog that wants to eat other like crazy to be around them, anymore than I would force a fearful dog to be around a ton of people just to make me happy, not all dogs are meant to be what YOU want them to be and that's ok. JQ Public thinks pit bulls are vicious towards people, I've had tons of people warning me my dogs will snap and kill me, but not a single one tell me my dogs might turn on each other, sorry but the public doesn't know crap about the breed, they think their jaws lock and their brains swell, you can't fix stupid. And again being DA or not doesn't mean a dog is a good fighter, plenty of Vicks fighting dogs now live with other dogs, look at Hector, gets along with other dogs while his owners other pit bull, a shelter rescue, is DA and also a Frisbee world champ.


----------



## leilaquinn

Wow, this got complicated! I own a dog friendly pit bull who is still young and who I am watchful with around other dogs. I LOVE that he likes other dogs, his social skills are not what a lot of dogs like, he has few friends, but the ones he has love to finally play as rough as they want to also. he was turned into a shelter by a guy who bought him from a "breeder" I feel pretty sure the guy bred his nice looking dog to his friend's nice looking dog for little reason other than he/she could. I doubt the gave much thought at all to what this genetic combination would do to better the breed. I figure thoughtlessly breeding random members of the same breed (or even group of breeds as happens pretty frequently with bully breeds, Lu could easily be mostly amstaff for all I know) Means you get a crapshoot of breed charicteristics. I'm glad Luigi loves people and dogs, that is what I wanted. my last dog was DA and HA (mostly towards children)The two were un related, I feel totally sure. I doubt he was truely dog aggresive, either, he had a serious fight and would have stopped when the other dog died, but it was over a toy. More crefully managed i think his DA would have been very manageable, especially as he was tiny and easy for me to pick up when I needed to. I would have happily have had him been severly DA if I could have waved a magic wand and fixed the HA. i LOVED him, and I *did* have him evaluated medically and behaviorly by multiple people, but i feel I made the right decsition when I put him down. If Luigi changes his mind about other dogs he will stop having playdates and stay an only dog for the rest of his life. If he becomes more selective, we will handle that accordingly. If he were to attack my mom unprovoked He would be evaluated thoroughly and if nothing could be done he would slip away in my loving arms like Vito did.

I think breeding FOR dog aggression as the main goal of a pairing is stupid, and probably not even that common among "game dog" breeders. I think a responsible breeder including a dog aggresive or selective dog in a breeding program because of it's other wonderful qualities, is better that breeding by just picking the Apbts with the least DA. Those of us saying it would be hard to just breed out with out losing other things, i at least, am not worried things related to DA would be lost, but by basing a breeding program on what might be the minority in a breed for ONE trait would be either ineffective as genetics are so complicated (there is no "DA" gene we could test for like a predisposition for hip dysplasia) or might result in unwanted traits that happen to be linked to dog tollerance in ways we, again, just don't understand genetically at this point.

I am really a rescue person, my dogs come from breedings I'm at least one step removed from usually quite a few steps, so I feel what we in the rescue comunity have a responsibility to do is what all the irresponsible breeders of all kinds out there aren't doing. Pit bulls are sooo overpopulated, there are simply not enough homes out there for all that exist and are being born. Some WILL be put down, just because of lack of space, I hate that fact so much it keeps me up at night. but if this is the horrible fact, I feel the only way to handle it is to put down ha pit bulls, partially just because of the fact that it makes room for the ones that people like me love, the ones like mine, who aren't perfect, but who you could try to murder with your hands before they would retaliate. If these were the only pit bulls left, it would at least put a dent in the bad opinions of them. I don't regret doing everything i could to try to fix Vito, but ultimately he was not what indiviuals of this breed need to be to change minds, and a matter of simple equipment failure could have resulted in an ACTUAL 'pit bull attacks child' news story that fox news wouldn't have even had to make up. If DA were the only bad mark on our breed in the public's mind, i feel sure there would be less frenzy.

I would love to have a bunch of rescue pit bulls (when I have a bigger house) that all get along and who would happily greet a baby or a burgler as a long lost friend. If I get really lucky that might happen, but if I have to keep some dogs seperated (again, i won't take that chance till I have more room to make that work if I have to) I will seperate them and love them the same. if I hope I can help a dog with some minor fear issues that escalate like Vito's did, I will put another pit bull down to make room for one that would be put down for NO real reason but space. When there are more dogs of a certain type than good homes for them, i think the best of the best SHOULD be given a chance first, if we get to the point where no pit bull who loves people is ever put down, I will be thrilled to see people work harder to help the one's with HA issues, but that doesn't seem likely soon.

Ultimately, i am a protective owner who wouldn't let a golden meet every dog and assume things would go well. it's been said before, but i don't like every person, the difference between me (and this isn't even true of many PEOPLE) and a dog is I don't bite people who annoy me. if any thing I think accepting, though not liking, the possibility that my dog is more prone to do poorly with other dog, has made me the owner of a dog who is safer for other dogs to be arround than my neighbor's poodle, who they let wander arround off leash, and who is DA and HA.


----------



## CorgiPaws

CavePaws said:


> So, I just want to know, does anyone who does not support but is not against DA being the breed standard have ANY suggestions at all on how to cope with the current issues of: DA pitbulls filling shelters, DA pitbulls making it to the news because of dog fighting, DA pitbulls being viewed by many (ignorant) people around this country as complete monsters?
> 
> I preface this with saying, that of course I do not think of any DA dog as a monster. I don't expect any dog to get along with every dog. But the mere fact that DA is even "acceptable" to some people just awes me.
> 
> I can tell you all; DA is a HUGE behavioral problem that not a lot of people are going to want to cater to. I'd like to know how many of you actually have a DA dog who claim that the issue is so manageable. It is not conventional in any sense of the word. It is only even manageable because I have put the last two years of my life working extensively, every day, with my DA dog. Sorry, but if you're like me and like actually competing at events with your dogs, then ya, you would probably see where severely DA dogs can have huge issue. Indi would be far beyond where she is in agility right now if I had not had to spend the first 12 months of her life teaching her how to act like a civilized being tied 20 ft from another dog. She was horrible by 6 months old and it gave me very limited options as to with whom and where I could hang out with my doggy friends.


You must consider that the vast majority of pet owners do not compete with their dogs like you do. A DA dog is simply a non-issue in MOST pet-type situations. 
Yes, IF you want to take your dog to places with a lot of other dogs- it can be a problem. Obviously. 
But, truth is, most dogs are just FINE without that. I've never competed in anything, and my dogs are certainly not miserable. 
Dogs do not NEED to be around other dogs. They do not NEED to live in multiple dog homes, or go to dog parks, or dog shows. 
So, in your average pet single dog home... a DA dog is entirely a non-issue. I have a good friend with a DA husky. She runs marathons, and this dog gets ran at least 4-6 miles a day, and more when she's preparing for an event. She doesn't go to dog parks, nor does she compete in anything. She is a well-loved family pet who is properly exercised and socialized with people and her DA has never caused an issue in her 7 years of life. 
Champ has same-sex DA. While it was unmanageable in my house (I am not going to keep myself NOR my dogs in a situation they are miserable in...) he is now in a home where he is the only dog, and they do not take him to dog parks... he couldn't be happier, and he's a great pet. 







committed2excellence said:


> I will have to disagree on that one. The type of dog that you own depends on just how manageable dog aggression is. Having worked with top trainers and behavioralists, I can say with certainty that your garden variety pet dog DA is simple to deal with and even fix as opposed to a dog that is extremely driven hard dog. Trust me, if your dogs get into a scuffle and you can yell and scream and bring out the water hose and end it, you aren't dealing with true dog aggression.


This we can agree on. But, I then must ask: Why must the DA dog need to be around other dogs? 
I've stated that I don't agree with crate and rotate situations (or any situation that means a dog is crated 12 hours/day) and I don't really think that DA dogs need to be in multiple dog families, but in a single family home, DA does not need to be an issue. 



committed2excellence said:


> s working folks with Mals and GSDs are not going to look kindly on the APBT people. They will shield their dogs, pick them up and make it a point to stay out of the way. Why? Because at some point that person experienced or knew someone who experienced the bad end of a dog aggressive APBT on the trial field. A dog who is truly aggressive and has not had the "whammy" put on him by a conscientious owner will NOT be able to work in certain settings. If dog aggression were that simple as task to manage you wouldn't have novices dropping these dogs off at the pound. Granted, this thread has shown me that not only does the public need more education on this topic, but you still have a large helping of owners or so called fanciers who don't have a clue either.


I don't care about trials and titles- that's not where working dogs work, that's where working dogs get to show off. 


I do not SUPPORT DA. I don't think it is a good thing, nor do I think it needs to be part of ANY breed standard. However, eliminating ANYTHING that heavily effects a breed narrows a gene pool to an extent that makes it dang near impossible to save the integrity of said breed. I also don't think that changing the breed standard will do a damn thing to solve the issue of DA in the majority of the dogs, nor will it hinder the dog fighting circut at all. The vast majority of dogs do NOT come from "good" breeders.


----------



## CorgiPaws

leilaquinn said:


> I think breeding FOR dog aggression as the main goal of a pairing is stupid, and probably not even that common among "game dog" breeders. I think a responsible breeder including a dog aggresive or selective dog in a breeding program because of it's other wonderful qualities, is better that breeding by just picking the Apbts with the least DA. Those of us saying it would be hard to just breed out with out losing other things, i at least, am not worried things related to DA would be lost, but by basing a breeding program on what might be the minority in a breed for ONE trait would be either ineffective as genetics are so complicated (there is no "DA" gene we could test for like a predisposition for hip dysplasia) or might result in unwanted traits that happen to be linked to dog tollerance in ways we, again, just don't understand genetically at this point.


this. ^^^^


----------



## committed2excellence

Again, I agree to a point. However, when you say "working dog", you refer to a dog who works. I understand considering shows and trials showing off. However, what if my dog does the noble work of SAR? He's sniffing out a cadaver and OOPS another dog comes across his path. What about a dog who goes and visits elderly people at a nursing home. He is perfectly fine until one of them pulls out their maltese and then there is a problem. Yesterday, my retired dog was in HIS yard minding HIS business and an idiot came along with an APBT at the end of a long line. He was purposely allowing the dogs to bait through the iron bars. If I don't look out of my window and respond with force, what happens if one of the dogs gets a hold of the other through the iron bars? As I said, I believe that we see a similar picture but until you have been there, the issue simply can't be written off with thoughts of "Oh, I will never run in to another dog with my dog in 16 years." It just will not happen unless you lock yourself up and become one of the people on Hoarders. It's a real issue and it must be considered. Can it be managed? Surely. Is it always simple? No. Believe me, I am one who thinks that dog parks are overall a failed idea and man's whimsy gone wrong. I will use them for training and nothing more. My dog needs ME. He doesn't need any other doggy friends and that is what I believe. That is my working dog perspective because that is my reality.



PuppyPaws said:


> You must consider that the vast majority of pet owners do not compete with their dogs like you do. A DA dog is simply a non-issue in MOST pet-type situations.
> Yes, IF you want to take your dog to places with a lot of other dogs- it can be a problem. Obviously.
> But, truth is, most dogs are just FINE without that. I've never competed in anything, and my dogs are certainly not miserable.
> Dogs do not NEED to be around other dogs. They do not NEED to live in multiple dog homes, or go to dog parks, or dog shows.
> So, in your average pet single dog home... a DA dog is entirely a non-issue. I have a good friend with a DA husky. She runs marathons, and this dog gets ran at least 4-6 miles a day, and more when she's preparing for an event. She doesn't go to dog parks, nor does she compete in anything. She is a well-loved family pet who is properly exercised and socialized with people and her DA has never caused an issue in her 7 years of life.
> Champ has same-sex DA. While it was unmanageable in my house (I am not going to keep myself NOR my dogs in a situation they are miserable in...) he is now in a home where he is the only dog, and they do not take him to dog parks... he couldn't be happier, and he's a great pet.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This we can agree on. But, I then must ask: Why must the DA dog need to be around other dogs?
> I've stated that I don't agree with crate and rotate situations (or any situation that means a dog is crated 12 hours/day) and I don't really think that DA dogs need to be in multiple dog families, but in a single family home, DA does not need to be an issue.
> 
> 
> I don't care about trials and titles- that's not where working dogs work, that's where working dogs get to show off.
> 
> 
> I do not SUPPORT DA. I don't think it is a good thing, nor do I think it needs to be part of ANY breed standard. However, eliminating ANYTHING that heavily effects a breed narrows a gene pool to an extent that makes it dang near impossible to save the integrity of said breed. I also don't think that changing the breed standard will do a damn thing to solve the issue of DA in the majority of the dogs, nor will it hinder the dog fighting circut at all. The vast majority of dogs do NOT come from "good" breeders.


----------



## CorgiPaws

committed2excellence said:


> Again, I agree to a point. However, when you say "working dog", you refer to a dog who works. I understand considering shows and trials showing off. However, what if my dog does the noble work of SAR? He's sniffing out a cadaver and OOPS another dog comes across his path. What about a dog who goes and visits elderly people at a nursing home. He is perfectly fine until one of them pulls out their maltese and then there is a problem. Yesterday, my retired dog was in HIS yard minding HIS business and an idiot came along with an APBT at the end of a long line. He was purposely allowing the dogs to bait through the iron bars. If I don't look out of my window and respond with force, what happens if one of the dogs gets a hold of the other through the iron bars? As I said, I believe that we see a similar picture but until you have been there, the issue simply can't be written off with thoughts of "Oh, I will never run in to another dog with my dog in 16 years." It just will not happen unless you lock yourself up and become one of the people on Hoarders. It's a real issue and it must be considered. Can it be managed? Surely. Is it always simple? No. Believe me, I am one who thinks that dog parks are overall a failed idea and man's whimsy gone wrong. I will use them for training and nothing more. My dog needs ME. He doesn't need any other doggy friends and that is what I believe. That is my working dog perspective because that is my reality.


Oh absolutely there are those exceptions, which is why I stated that it in most cases is a non issue, but there will always be exceptions to everything. 

I have personally been there with a previous dog of mine that I did ultimately have to make the call that a multiple dog home was just not going to work out for him. With this particular dog, he did not go to dog parks, nor was he ever unattended in the yard. Certainly other idiot owners can impose on your property to a degree, but ultimately I think it is every owner's responsibility to make sure their own dog is not in a position to get ahold of another dog. Having a DA dog DOES require additional effort, but in the ideal situation I don't find it to be that tough. I will add that my personal experience is not with a bully breed, but rather a GSD mix who was fine with other dogs, and developed awful same-sex DA as an adult. 

While I entirely agree that you can not expect to never have to cross another dog, I do think that taking reasonable measures to avoid uncontrolled situations such as dog parks or other off leash areas, avoiding true damage is *USUALLY* pretty easy to do. 

*But again, I do not think that DA is a good thing, and certainly not something to strive for, and I don't think that it should be a part of any breed description as something to adhere to. I would not consider a breeder or ANY breed that breeds FOR DA (or any kind of aggression) to be ethical by any stretch of the imagination.* The dog fighting community is out there, and I don't think that any changes to the standard will make them think twice about the dogs they create, nor how they "train" or use them. The idea of "stop breeding DA dogs and dog fighting will go away" is incredibly flawed. It's disgusting, but it's reality. 
I think that it takes a certain level of dedication and commitment which is beyond that of the average pet owner to responsibly own a dog like this. Unfortunately there is a shortage of responsible owners, and an overabundance of these dogs. 

MANY breeds are described as naturally wary or stand offish to strangers. Should this be bred out and eliminated, too?


----------



## committed2excellence

I wasn't one that actually said that eliminating certain dogs from the gene pool would be the answer. I am still more about education and I really wouldn't mind paying a fee of some sort to own these dogs. I think you and I met in the middle. I just didn't want the issue discounted a one that holds no weight or poses no problems in simple everyday situations. I did pose the question on my board a short while ago. Maybe I can get to the bottom of what it is that makes this type of dog necessary in the average person's home. I think the responses will be varied and interesting. And stupid. I also agree with your ideal scenario theory. However, I love what I do day in and day out and I wouldn't change it. I just make sure that I am careful of the next "tough guy" with his "tough dog." That reminds me, it's been three days and I haven't heard back from my tough guy friend who attends the REAL dog shows. He's probably busy getting ready for the show. Ok, going to train some dogs now.lol


----------



## Muttkip

Well I thought to soon.....they got into another fight tonight and this is the end of them being near each other. Takoda attacked Beau this time, over what I have no clue. But when I broke up the fight, she kept circling me and eyeing me NOT him.....so who knows where this will lead. I'm guessing she was just amped up from the fight and was still in fight mode, but the look she gave me, she wouldn't back down no matter how many times I kicked her away or nailed her in the mouth with my foot, she kept circling and jumping and not snapping but nipping I guess. So I'm going to see if keeping them apart will work......


----------



## CorgiPaws

Yeah, I'd probably bite you too if you were kicking me in the mouth. Wtf, seriously dude? There's a difference between having to resort to brute force to break a dog fight, and continually kicking a dog in the face after the fight is broken. You seriously need get control of yourself, and talk with a real trainer with experience in aggression and get some help. 
I would not be surprised, after reading that, if their aggression is a direct result of your idiotic behavior. 

I thought there would be ONE thread I could agree with you in (or at least not want to punch my computer reading your posts in) but you ruined it. Your poor dogs...


----------



## cprcheetah

Muttkip said:


> Well I thought to soon.....they got into another fight tonight and this is the end of them being near each other. Takoda attacked Beau this time, over what I have no clue. But when I broke up the fight, she kept circling me and eyeing me NOT him.....so who knows where this will lead. I'm guessing she was just amped up from the fight and was still in fight mode, but the look she gave me, she wouldn't back down no matter how many times I kicked her away or nailed her in the mouth with my foot, she kept circling and jumping and not snapping but nipping I guess. So I'm going to see if keeping them apart will work......


Hmmmm if you kicked me in the face I would circle & nip at you too......I agree with Linsey, find a trainer who can help and quit cooping your 2 dogs who obviously have issues with each other up in a small enclosed area....it's asking for trouble.


----------



## Tobi

Muttkip said:


> Well I thought to soon.....they got into another fight tonight and this is the end of them being near each other. Takoda attacked Beau this time, over what I have no clue. But when I broke up the fight, she kept circling me and eyeing me NOT him.....so who knows where this will lead. I'm guessing she was just amped up from the fight and was still in fight mode, but the look she gave me, *she wouldn't back down no matter how many times I kicked her away or nailed her in the mouth with my foot, she kept circling and jumping and not snapping but nipping I guess.* So I'm going to see if keeping them apart will work...... *DUH... YA THINK?!*


wow... sounds like you have been watching a bit too much of Caesar Milan... I'm sorry for your dogs, like Linsey this was something that I understood that, when a dog fight happens force is often times needed, but after the altercation is over... why the hell are you still striking your animal? 

I don't like how you keep your animals pinned up outside in the dirt, I've stayed quiet about it becuase really... to each his/her own... but now you've said this... I truly don't think you deserve to have a dog.


----------



## Oso

CavePaws said:


> And Oso, was it you who said that you want a game bred dog and that you are okay with crating and rotating? Aren't you close enough to your current dog to feel sort of bad about _seeking out_ an extremely high drive DA pitbull and thus cutting down on the amount of time you get with your current dog? I like my pack to be harmonious. I won't ever be able to introduce another dog into my pack until Indi is gone. I'm completely fine with that. If I could I would prevent her from getting old and keep her forever. I love my DA dog and I couldn't care less if anyone doesn't want me to keep her around. I understand, in a sense, where you all are coming from, saying that a breed should not be persecuted for what it was bred to do. I'm sort of flabbergasted that anyone would ever state they want to buy a truly, extremely severe, DA dog. I will say that any game bred dog is going to be too much DA dog for anyone who is not willing to go to great lengths to keep their dog and everyone else's dog safe. Game bred dogs really don't belong in the hands of anyone who have not researched the hell out of the breed and DA. I know breeding DA out of pitbulls is completely unrealistic. But striving to breed dogs for the tenacity their offspring will show towards other dogs is just disgusting *to me*. Genetics play a HUGE role in aggression, far more than what most people like to admit because they would rather think it is the owner who screwed up. I know you love your pitbulls the way they are. I love my dog aggressive dog the way she is. But I love her despite her DA, I love her for everything she is that is good. Since her DA is manageable with my current dogs and doable in controlled situations in public, ya it is easy to overlook her issues. They are rather minor to me. I wouldn't trust dogs like her in many people's hands; frankly, I wouldn't feel comfortable re-homing a dog like Indi to anyone but an extremely skilled handler with experience with multiple DA dogs.



Yes I am fine with C&R, no problem what so ever. Did I say I was going to go out and get a game bred dog right now? No. I dont have the time for one ATM, and dont have a proper yard for it either. 
I dont see how a proper C&R neglects one or the other dog, if done right. 

Now about the next thing, I would never (and me not going out and getting one now shows this) get a game bred or working dog of any breed if I did not have the time, space and proper security to keep one in my home. I dont have that right now, when I do, then I will start looking and who knows how long finding the right dog for me will take, could be years, hell it could be years to wait for the breeder to breed another litter no problem for me. When getting working bred dogs you never rush.

I am happy that you love your dog despite her DA, it doesnt take away from her being a great pet or family dog at all does it?


----------



## Oso

lauren43 said:


> Oso I was thinking the same thing. Esp with the fact your current boy is DA. All it takes is one mistake and you'd have quite a mess on your hands...are you worried about that? Or would you get this second dog after the current one has passed?


I dont see a problem with keeping DA dogs separate, I dont work and can spend plenty of time with both WHEN/IF I get another in the next few years or so, who knows. Like I said, until I get a proper yard and have more experience with REAL APBTs I wont get one, I dont believe in rushing when getting a dog of that caliber.


----------



## Oso

committed2excellence said:


> I was staying out of this one as an APBT owner. However, you just set us all- APBT owners, showers, fanciers, trainers back with that comment. OK, I GET IT. There is a subset of APBT culture that can't let the old days die. I'm trying to understand why some of you think that because your dog is dog aggressive that make him "REAL". Are you saying because I have dogs that work and show and do therapy and obedience and personal protection and just because they don't buck up at the site of another dog that means they aren't "REAL" APBTs? Come on. With everything that has happened with our breed from maulings to the old dogmen to mike vick, we CAN NOT afford to keep fueling the fire. Keep that kind of talk on your ADBA boards with your friends that think it's cool for dogs to be hot. Don't come on a board where some of the people already have a bad impression of the breed and don't understand the breed and fuel their fire. See, here is the question you have to answer. You say you are getting a game bred dog. This is a dog that somewhere in his lineage is bred for fighting. Dog fighting is a felony in all 50 states now. WHAT ARE YOUR PLANS FOR THIS DOG? ARE YOU A DOG FIGHTER? Hopefully, you will answer No and you do not fight dogs. Next question, in everyday life in your home, WHAT EXACTLY IS IS THAT YOUR GAME BRED DOG IS GOING TO BE ABLE TO DO SO MUCH BETTER THAN MY DOGS WHO ARE BRED FROM WORKING STOCK? WHAT MAKES THIS DOG AGGRESSIVE DOG A USEFUL COMMODITY IN YOUR EVERYDAY LIFE? I'm willing to make a friendly prediction as I often do that at 18 months I can put my best up against your best and we can choose from several disciplines: weight pull, dock diving,lure coursing, obedience, agility, retrieves, swimming, tug of war, springpole hangtime. You can think of some more events if this doesn't cover the scope of your dog's talents and I will guarantee wins on my end. At that point, I will ask the question again, WHAT IS IT THAT MAKES THIS TRAIT DESIRABLE? How was your dog able to perform on a higher level than mine. I will win every time. As I said, your comments make all of us look bad and you should temper your words in certain settings. However, that probably wouldn't be "keeping it real". I guess I will take my fake APBTs and keep averaging 10 titles a year while you guys have your dog aggressive dogs looking tough on the sidelines. I've done martial arts since I was a child and I welcome physical contact. I've also met some of the "great dogmen". Heck I have pictures with Floyd Boudreaux on my facebook page. I also have pictures with Mike Vick. I always ask myself how many of these folks would get into a ring against a matched opponent week after week and fight to the death. After 20 years my answer still comes up the same-Hellnaw they wouldn't and neither would you.


Okay, I dont mean that a non DA APBT isnt "real" I mean if I am paying for a old style game bred APBT it should be DA to some degree, thats what those dogs are about. I dont think any less of a person who breeds show bred APBTs, and their dogs arent hot and I know a breeder who I would get my left arm to have one of his dogs, and he doesnt breed towards DA, he breeds quality dogs that fit the standard of the breed.

LOL!! Am I a dog fighter? Uhm HELL NO, funny you say that, obviously you dont see my blue AmBully, he is one of them game bred dogs too!! :tongue1: I would never fight a dog of mine, EVER. I dont get them for that reason, I get them as pets and working partners.

I never said a dog from your stock is any better or worse than a dog off someone elses yard, you have fine dogs and I have told you that! I just want a dog off of a specific yard, and his dogs happen to be game bred. Thats drive is what I want, does that prove that his dogs are better than yours? No. Hell your dogs may be better at everything than his, who knows. 
Now for the DA, I am getting a GAME bred dog, I want the DA to be there because IMO thats what I went to his yard looking for. I want the whole package of the game bred dog. 

I would love to take you up on that offer, but as I stated, I dont know when I am going to get said dog, so it may be a while. 

I dont get what me wanting a DA dog has to do with me not being willing to fight another person? I am not going to fight my dog(s) and never will, and I dont think you hitting a female would prove any point  
I dont hate your dogs at all, and they are great at what they do and with wins like that your doing everything right, and I respect that but not everyone likes or wants the same kinds of dogs with the same temperaments. I dont get how that makes me a bad person?

Again, I would love to get a dog later in life and have it up against your dogs in show or competition, I would take that as an honor that my dog would be in the same class as yours!


----------



## Oso

committed2excellence said:


> Exactly. DA does NOT always come with the territory. Often times it is just an excuse for losers not to do anything with their dogs. "Oh, uh, my dog is hot so I can't have him in any obedience or other activities where there might be dogs." Child please



I agree with this. I dont limit my dogs activity out in the community, he goes with me about everywhere almost every single day (depending on if I go out or not) and his DA doesnt stop him from being a great breed ambassador. 
I cant stand the people who lock their DA dogs in the yard and dont do shit with them, I work and play with mine at parks and take him to stores, feed shops, doctors offices, home improvement places, every ones house, and any other place I go. If you cant train your DA dog to act like a decent animal in public, you shouldnt own one. 
Bear will be starting his WP training once he turns a year and I want to have him ready to compete in any local events and have fun with him, regardless of his DA.
I mean, as an example I have to make people leave me and him alone if they have their pets with them, they think they can just walk up nose to nose with their dogs and are surprised after seeing his calm and respectful nature when I say he would seriously hurt their pet and he is not dog friendly at all. Its all about training and not setting your dog up to fail, if you know its DA DONT LET PEOPLE WALK RIGHT UP WITH THEIR DOGS, thats just being ignorant and asking for something to happen.



CavePaws said:


> This statement is the most notable one I've read that really really pisses me off now that I know _some_ ch. fighting APBT (supposedly the top examples of the breed) were okay with dogs and had to be actually trained to go to war with another dog. Ugh. I just don't get it...
> 
> And sorry Kady, but you were supporting the people who are okay with DA. It was only natural for me to have redirected aggression towards someone who supports it. What I've been through with my DA dog makes me sick that ANYONE on this planet enjoys that kind of crap or even tolerates people who do.


I dont think you train a dog to fight, its a terrier and like any terrier owner will say, they wont back down from a challenge whatever that challenge is.

Sorry I was MIA for a minute, but just to respond to the things about me. 

As for Muttkip kicking Takoda, I think she was saying the dog was eyeing and snapping and nipping at her after the fight, thus she was trying to keep the dog form biting her by using her foot...?


----------



## committed2excellence

How do you know that the dog is "game" unless you have engaged in illegal activities and tested the dog?



Oso said:


> Okay, I dont mean that a non DA APBT isnt "real" I mean if I am paying for a old style game bred APBT it should be DA to some degree, thats what those dogs are about. I dont think any less of a person who breeds show bred APBTs, and their dogs arent hot and I know a breeder who I would get my left arm to have one of his dogs, and he doesnt breed towards DA, he breeds quality dogs that fit the standard of the breed.
> 
> LOL!! Am I a dog fighter? Uhm HELL NO, funny you say that, obviously you dont see my blue AmBully, he is one of them game bred dogs too!! :tongue1: I would never fight a dog of mine, EVER. I dont get them for that reason, I get them as pets and working partners.
> 
> I never said a dog from your stock is any better or worse than a dog off someone elses yard, you have fine dogs and I have told you that! I just want a dog off of a specific yard, and his dogs happen to be game bred. Thats drive is what I want, does that prove that his dogs are better than yours? No. Hell your dogs may be better at everything than his, who knows.
> Now for the DA, I am getting a GAME bred dog, I want the DA to be there because IMO thats what I went to his yard looking for. I want the whole package of the game bred dog.
> 
> I would love to take you up on that offer, but as I stated, I dont know when I am going to get said dog, so it may be a while.
> 
> I dont get what me wanting a DA dog has to do with me not being willing to fight another person? I am not going to fight my dog(s) and never will, and I dont think you hitting a female would prove any point
> I dont hate your dogs at all, and they are great at what they do and with wins like that your doing everything right, and I respect that but not everyone likes or wants the same kinds of dogs with the same temperaments. I dont get how that makes me a bad person?
> 
> Again, I would love to get a dog later in life and have it up against your dogs in show or competition, I would take that as an honor that my dog would be in the same class as yours!


----------



## committed2excellence

Sorry, I didn't answer your question. I guess the reason that I always parallel the dog fighting and the human fighting is a simple one. Through the course of my dog ownership I have been fortunate enough to have dogs that have proven that they would sacrifice themselves for me. I guess I always just thought that the act of putting a creature(irrespective of what its nature supposedly is) in a box and letting it fight another creature to the death was cowardly. People tend to transfer their egos to their dogs. As an individual who has true handler/dog partnerships, I would never, could never ask my dog to anything that I wouldn't do myself. I just don't know many people who have fought or claim to have fought dogs that would expose themselves to that kind of risk. To put it in your terms, most owners are nowhere near as "game" as the dogs that they own.




Oso said:


> Okay, I dont mean that a non DA APBT isnt "real" I mean if I am paying for a old style game bred APBT it should be DA to some degree, thats what those dogs are about. I dont think any less of a person who breeds show bred APBTs, and their dogs arent hot and I know a breeder who I would get my left arm to have one of his dogs, and he doesnt breed towards DA, he breeds quality dogs that fit the standard of the breed.
> 
> LOL!! Am I a dog fighter? Uhm HELL NO, funny you say that, obviously you dont see my blue AmBully, he is one of them game bred dogs too!! :tongue1: I would never fight a dog of mine, EVER. I dont get them for that reason, I get them as pets and working partners.
> 
> I never said a dog from your stock is any better or worse than a dog off someone elses yard, you have fine dogs and I have told you that! I just want a dog off of a specific yard, and his dogs happen to be game bred. Thats drive is what I want, does that prove that his dogs are better than yours? No. Hell your dogs may be better at everything than his, who knows.
> Now for the DA, I am getting a GAME bred dog, I want the DA to be there because IMO thats what I went to his yard looking for. I want the whole package of the game bred dog.
> 
> I would love to take you up on that offer, but as I stated, I dont know when I am going to get said dog, so it may be a while.
> 
> I dont get what me wanting a DA dog has to do with me not being willing to fight another person? I am not going to fight my dog(s) and never will, and I dont think you hitting a female would prove any point
> I dont hate your dogs at all, and they are great at what they do and with wins like that your doing everything right, and I respect that but not everyone likes or wants the same kinds of dogs with the same temperaments. I dont get how that makes me a bad person?
> 
> Again, I would love to get a dog later in life and have it up against your dogs in show or competition, I would take that as an honor that my dog would be in the same class as yours!


----------



## xellil

Muttkip said:


> Well I thought to soon.....they got into another fight tonight and this is the end of them being near each other. Takoda attacked Beau this time, over what I have no clue. But when I broke up the fight, she kept circling me and eyeing me NOT him.....so who knows where this will lead. I'm guessing she was just amped up from the fight and was still in fight mode, but the look she gave me, she wouldn't back down no matter how many times I kicked her away or nailed her in the mouth with my foot, she kept circling and jumping and not snapping but nipping I guess. So I'm going to see if keeping them apart will work......


These are the actions of someone who is afraid, angry, and out of control. Please, do something positive like get some professional help. When your own dog is attacking you repeatedly, you truly need to ask yourself what you are doing wrong.


----------



## leilaquinn

Ok, I feel like i might regret saying this, I try not to judge people without knowing everything about a situation, and that's just not possible on the internet. My impression is that Muttkip is a quite young (maybe even still teenage?) girl who has been through a TON of upheaval in the last year or so. Would I aprove her adoption application if we were in that position? No, not at all. I think her life circumstances prevent her from being the dog owner she would probably ideally like to be. When I was a kid I went through the ordeal of parents separating and having to rehome our dog as separately she wouldn't have gotten the care she needed. I was 17, about to move to hawaii to study sustainable living systems, had paid tuition, couldn't change my plans, the divorce (second for us, this was my mom and my step father) was a suprise and with him and me gone my mom couldn't have cared for a rambunctious 11 month old lab, working full time, etc. Isabelle went to a family friend, and is still alive, old and happy with them, it was still heartbreaking for my mom and I. I know Muttkip has been through rehoming dogs she loved for family reasons outside her control, and it's hard. I think muttkip has done the best she can with Beau, and while getting another dog was probably not the best plan, it's also understandable considering she had reason to feel uprooted and to be seeking comfort. 

I've had to break up dog fights when i worked in daycare, and the adrenaline dosn't go away the second you get two dogs separated, I may have kicked out at the aggresor at some point if I thought it would prevent the fight from starting again, or even out of simple instinct if I, myself, felt threatened.

I feel like I sound condiscending, Muttkip, I am sorry for that, you have been through a lot of changes, and have documented them in detail on a number of forums populated by people who are passionate about dogs and their care. Sometimes it almost seems like you are feeling guilty and WANT to be berated by people you don't know, like you are looking for a chance to feel unjustly criticised so you can stand up for your self. Again, I feel like a bit of an a#####e for the psych evaluation, but you are on most of the same dog sites as me and I have started to cringe in anticipation when I see a new thread from you about anything other than cute pictures. I really think you are doing your best, and I REALLY think you love your dogs completely and want the best for them, I just hope you wait until circumstances improve before getting any more. good luck, I hope you don't think I'm trying to hurt your feelings, I'm truly not, i think that you are accumulating experiences that will contribute to you being a great dog owner as time passes, it seems you really want to be, the more you grow up the more you will be totally in charge of how you care for your dogs.


----------



## xellil

leilaquinn said:


> Ok, I feel like i might regret saying this, I try not to judge people without knowing everything about a situation, and that's just not possible on the internet. My impression is that Muttkip is a quite young (maybe even still teenage?) girl who has been through a TON of upheaval in the last year or so.


Perhaps you are right. unfortunately, there are hundreds of thousands of people who own dogs that shouldn't own dogs. Because dogs do things that tick us off - regardless of our life situation it's way too easy to abuse a dog. WAY too easy. And the only way a dog has to communicate when it is being abused might be with its teeth. That is a HUGE communication - the dog is saying please, I am not being treated right.

The person who recognizes that is the person who might be a good dog owner one day, with help from the outside.

I firmly believe that more people are cruel to their animals out of ignorance rather than malice - but it doesn't make it any easier from the dog's point of view.

Edited to add: or maybe she just enjoys saying things that will get people going. I am not allowed to say the "T" word, but it's possible.


----------



## CavePaws

Muttkip, you need to keep your dogs separated for your own good and theirs. If you can't even figure out the source of the fight then there is a serious issue with you keeping these dogs together. They seem to be telling you VERY clearly that they do not need to be around each other without your constant supervision. Owning a DA dog of any kind whether it is predictable or unpredictable means you have to be at the tip top of your game reading their body language. It seems to me you aren't taking the proper precautions with them. I've broken up countless dog fights, I've been bitten god knows how many times, but not once did I continually kick the sh*t out of my DA dog. WTF. You don't even know who started it, so to kick the sh*t out of one of your dogs in the mouth...really? I always just separate as quickly as possible and put the dogs in their crates for cool down periods. Are you tying them up together or something?

You need to consult a behaviorist...I just don't think you are in the position to properly care for these two dogs the way they are acting right now.


----------



## Muttkip

Okay, before this gets out of control....in MY defense I was scared and was trying to keep Takoda from getting to Beau who I was holding in my arms to keep them from doing anymore damage to each other. I was in the wrong and I shouldn't have kicked her, but the ardeline(sp?) was pumping and I was not thinking clearly. I shouldn't have done it, but I did and it was to protect me and my dog. And the reason I kicked her away was because she was circling and I was trying to get to the gate of the pen, but she wouldn't let me. I did what I could until I could actually get out of the pen. 

And as for everyone saying I don't deserve my dogs...maybe I don't and maybe I do suck as a dog owner. But I AM NOT letting go of the last piece of family I have, I'm trying my best and that's all anyone can do.


----------



## xellil

Muttkip said:


> And as for everyone saying I don't deserve my dogs...maybe I don't and maybe I do suck as a dog owner. But I AM NOT letting go of the last piece of family I have, I'm trying my best and that's all anyone can do.


then you really need to change some things. i don't think you are trying your best. 

You need someone to help you manage your dogs properly, for one. People don't kick family members, nor repeatedly put them in situations where they will fight each other.


----------



## CorgiPaws

If you are not open to Rehoming one or both dogs then you at least need to completely revamp how you are handling them because what you are doing is clearly not working for them. For your safety and theirs you need to stop setting them up to fail. 
It is clear that you do not understand your dogs, and you need professional help in learning to handle them. 
Dogs penned or tied up outside usually have more behavior problems due to lack of proper stimulation and socialization. If this is the kind of situation you wish to keep these dogs in, you need to step it up.


----------



## leilaquinn

I think it is somewhat understandable to kick at a larger dog while holding a small dog in your arm and retreating. The last straw for me at the crappy daycare i worked out was a group of dogs left alone by the owner while I was in a different part of the building (I was the groomer at this creepy place, briefly), not telling me she was leaving them alone to get her lunch. i heard fighting, ran to the indoor pen, broke up 4 dogs by myself, got bitten twice, and ended up holding a 15 lb Llasa (sp? there should be an h?) with an airdale trying to get her out of my arms. I remember kicking the airdale in the chest and tossing the little guy over the barrier, two things I would NEVER have done outside of such a panic situation. 

One try to mend the relationship after a major fight has failed, I think the safest thing would be to keep them separated from now on. IF another reintroduction is tried there needs to be other dog savy people present. Period. They should never be around eachother right now if you don't have a few people standing around, watching for warnings and ready to calmly and quickly put an end to any trouble, for everyone's safty and so your dogs know they can trust you to keep them safe. fights happen, sometimes when you are alone with 2 dogs, but you know right now that the potential is there, so extra caution is really important. I know Beau has shown himself to be a scrappy little tough guy, but he is still a senior who should be able to count on you to keep him safe from the newcomer dog.


----------



## CavePaws

Just a question, do you have enough funds right now to cover medical bills for the damage your dogs might do to each other? I can tell you that it won't be cheap if one of them needs stitches, painkillers, antibiotics, etc. You need to remember that your dogs are designed predators and can VERY easily cause an insane amount of damage in an extremely short amount of time. You could very easily lose one of your dogs if this escalates. You should really consider consulting a professional or perhaps rehome one of your dogs if it truly makes you go into a panic when this happens. You can't just lose your cool or someone will get hurt.


----------



## stajbs

Muttkip, the thing that really concerns me is that you say the one dog was circling around you while you were holding another. I have broken up siberian and mal fights and fortunately never had to resort to kicking. Have I kneed them apart or kneed one back, yes, but never had to kick. I understand you were in panic mode, a dog fight is extremely adrenaline producing for sure. But in my experience once I have broken up a fight both dogs have looked almost forlorn and sorry that I am displeased with them. That's why I say I am concerned that one was unwilling to back off from you whether you were holding another dog or not. In my book that dog should have been backing off. This behavior leads me to believe this dog no longer sees you as its leader. That dog intends to rule the pack and given the chance it looks like he/she might. I agree you need to keep them separated and in YOUR control at all times in the future, and/or it's time to seek some professional canine behavioral advice. If you can't figure out the catalyst/trigger for the fight you are starting from square one. Maybe they just can't stand each other either, and that may never change, who knows. You need to take control back!! It's critical for the dogs and for you.


----------



## BarbaraClark

I agree completely and totally with cliffdog. All I have to say to the people on this forum is "wow".


----------



## committed2excellence

The blind often follow the blind and the misinformed often hide behind others who are misinformed. I see that you have one post; making me wonder if you were asked to come on to this board to participate in the show. Notice that your buddy Cliffdog hasn't posted since I asked him a couple of questions that might have been a little too "REAL" for him to answer Since you have chosen to cosign off on ignorance, I will pose the same questions to you that I did to Cliffdog. Who are you? What do you do with your APBTS or what experiences have you had that give you the accreditation to speak on this topic and be taken seriously? Lastly, what are you doing to better the breed?



BarbaraClark said:


> I agree completely and totally with cliffdog. All I have to say to the people on this forum is "wow".


----------



## BarbaraClark

committed2excellence said:


> The blind often follow the blind and the misinformed often hide behind others who are misinformed. I see that you have one post; making me wonder if you were asked to come on to this board to participate in the show. Notice that your buddy Cliffdog hasn't posted since I asked him a couple of questions that might have been a little too "REAL" for him to answer Since you have chosen to cosign off on ignorance, I will pose the same questions to you that I did to Cliffdog. Who are you? What do you do with your APBTS or what experiences have you had that give you the accreditation to speak on this topic and be taken seriously? Lastly, what are you doing to better the breed?


Lol, no. I wasn't asked to join. I came on here to learn more about quality foods for my APBT mix. I added Cliffdog because I am friends with him on another forum, and I saw this. I'm not going to argue with you, I'm simply going to state my opinion and my opinion is as his. It's pointless arguing with people who obviously don't understand. He tried that, and I'm not going to go on. As for an answer to your questions: I don't show, I don't compete with my dogs, but it seems as if you are assuming that if I don't do these things, I must have no knowledge of the breed. Shame on you. I know plenty of people that don't show or breed their dogs and who know just as much as those who do. My question to you, now, since I didn't quite read ALL of the posts: what's your stand on the idea that DA should be bred out of APBTs?


----------



## BarbaraClark

I shouldn't have even bothered with this...I'm not going to reply to whatever you say next. Don't feel like arguing. Cliff already tried, didn't work. I'll let you go on, lol. Byebye.


----------



## committed2excellence

Didn't say that. Pet owners are just as important as people who take their dogs out. In fat, I PREFER forever homes to show homes. However, Cliffdog made an ignorant and devisive comment when he assumed that the dogs that I deal with are not REAL. That's the type of comment that tears our breed down. As far as DA is concerned, I don't believe that the breed should be changed. I do believe that there are people who DO NOT EVER need to own a DA dog. If you have a dog like that he doesn't need to be on a chain or tied out in a yard. He needs to have a job. Moreover, we don't need people coming on boards like this with that "my dog is the toughest dog on the block mentality." 



BarbaraClark said:


> Lol, no. I wasn't asked to join. I came on here to learn more about quality foods for my APBT mix. I added Cliffdog because I am friends with him on another forum, and I saw this. I'm not going to argue with you, I'm simply going to state my opinion and my opinion is as his. It's pointless arguing with people who obviously don't understand. He tried that, and I'm not going to go on. As for an answer to your questions: I don't show, I don't compete with my dogs, but it seems as if you are assuming that if I don't do these things, I must have no knowledge of the breed. Shame on you. I know plenty of people that don't show or breed their dogs and who know just as much as those who do. My question to you, now, since I didn't quite read ALL of the posts: what's your stand on the idea that DA should be bred out of APBTs?


----------



## BarbaraClark

committed2excellence said:


> Didn't say that. Pet owners are just as important as people who take their dogs out. In fat, I PREFER forever homes to show homes. However, Cliffdog made an ignorant and devisive comment when he assumed that the dogs that I deal with are not REAL. That's the type of comment that tears our breed down. As far as DA is concerned, I don't believe that the breed should be changed. I do believe that there are people who DO NOT EVER need to own a DA dog. If you have a dog like that he doesn't need to be on a chain or tied out in a yard. He needs to have a job. Moreover, we don't need people coming on boards like this with that "my dog is the toughest dog on the block mentality."


Then why were the two of you arguing? I agree with what you just posted.


----------



## committed2excellence

Go back to the post where he assumed that I only participated in UKC events and to come see him when I was ready for a REAL dog show. I think it is around page 22



BarbaraClark said:


> Then why were the two of you arguing? I agree with what you just posted.


----------



## BarbaraClark

committed2excellence said:


> Go back to the post where he assumed that I only participated in UKC events and to come see him when I was ready for a REAL dog show. I think it is around page 22


I went back and looked. Are your APBT's DA?


----------



## kady05

I think when Cliff said that (the "real" APBT thing), he was referring to how most UKC registered APBT's are "Pitterstaffs".


----------



## BarbaraClark

kady05 said:


> I think when Cliff said that (the "real" APBT thing), he was referring to how most UKC registered APBT's are "Pitterstaffs".


I think so, too. I don't want to misunderstand Cliff, but I think what he said was interpreted in the wrong way.


----------



## BarbaraClark

Btw Kady, you should make pictures of your beautiful dogs as your signature on PBC. Lol. I love seeing them every time you post...your dogs are so pretty.


----------



## committed2excellence

It was on page 20.. Here is what he said. And yes, I do own a retired male who has had problems with DA for years. 

I'm done with this thread. All I see is people who don't know jack s*** about APBTs acting like they're cool stuff. I don't know jack s*** about Black Russian Terriers so I don't go around acting like I do. That's what you all are doing.

Oh yeah, committed2excellence... Let me guess, UKC? Lol, have fun with your Bullies and AmStaffs. If you're ever at a real APBT show, look me up!



BarbaraClark said:


> I think so, too. I don't want to misunderstand Cliff, but I think what he said was interpreted in the wrong way.


----------



## BarbaraClark

I can't speak for him, so I don't know. As far as I can see, the only person I don't agree with on here is CavePaws.


----------



## committed2excellence

Even if he was, I can't abide by the divisive words that he uses to make it seem as if I don't participate and support all aspects of this breed. You can't tell me that I don't have great dogs when I have both styles and work both styles Moreover, I asked what REAL shows did he attend and he never responded. 



kady05 said:


> I think when Cliff said that (the "real" APBT thing), he was referring to how most UKC registered APBT's are "Pitterstaffs".


----------



## xellil

When all else fails, enlist your buddies.


----------



## committed2excellence

LMAO. What ever do you mean



xellil said:


> When all else fails, enlist your buddies.


----------



## BarbaraClark

xellil said:


> When all else fails, enlist your buddies.


No one "enlisted their buddies" and I think that was already stated.


----------



## xellil

BarbaraClark said:


> No one "enlisted their buddies" and I think that was already stated.




OK. it was stated, so that makes it true.


----------



## CavePaws

BarbaraClark said:


> I can't speak for him, so I don't know. As far as I can see, the only person I don't agree with on here is CavePaws.



I'd like to know what you don't agree with? 

Let me make my opinion on this very black and white so you don't misconstrue what I am saying: If DA is part of the "breed standard" I don't think it should be. It pisses me off that people seem to think DA pitbulls are more "real" and "true" to the breed standard when it has been said in this thread that some of the Ch. fighters (magnificent examples of the breed) were not DA. (How is that logical at all?) It's disgusting that people with no true grasp on how bad DA can be take it so lightly and think they are all too cool because their dog wants to kill other dogs. I own a DA dog; she isn't just my dog either, she is my working partner. I think a lot of people should never own a DA dog, and from what I have seen, a lot of people are proud of DA in and of itself, which disgusts me. What does DA stand for? A dog who will attack another dog in an unwarranted situation. Cliffdog claimed I don't own a working breed and I haven't dealt with true DA. All I can say is he can kiss my DA dogs ass; she probably has way more drive than he could ever handle. I think that DA as a BREED STANDARD is ridiculous, especially since A LOT of Pitbulls I see these days are not DA. Yes, I think education with any breed is of the utmost importance. But, I do not think DA dogs are for inexperienced dog owners. I see DA APBTs in the wrong hands and it makes me sad because these people have no earthly idea how to actually control their dog and give them an outlet for their aggression. I just think that boasting about your "hot" dog is ridiculous. If pitbulls are predisposed to DA, so be it; but that doesn't mean you have to boast about it. Find a different outlet for your dog to be proud of.

eta: Even if you did not come here to defend Cliffdog, I welcome you to step right on into the argument and back up your opinion. Please, don't just get in a huff and leave, I really want to know why you think DA is so absolutely wonderful.


----------



## BarbaraClark

The point is, APBT's were MADE to fight other dogs. _That's what they are._ If you don't like it, get another breed of dog. I by no means am saying that a APBT that is not DA isn't a "real" APBT, but that's what these dogs were made, were engineered, to do. They enjoy it. And I also, enjoy it. It's part of the APBT "ego", as I call it. They have the DA in their strut..."I'm better than any other dog and I know it.". It's part of the animal. Would you try to breed the herding out of a collie if you didn't like it? I would hope not, get a different dog. If you don't like what the APBT _is_, then you really shouldn't be involved with this breed.


----------



## BarbaraClark

Get an AmStaff if you can't appreciate the history of the APBT.


----------



## BarbaraClark

I'll just tell you - join a pit bull forum. Like pitbull-chat.com. I had a lot of ignorant ideas about the breed, then I joined that site. It will help you get better informed about the breed. I highly recommend it, it's a great site.


----------



## xellil

BarbaraClark said:


> The point is, APBT's were MADE to fight other dogs. _That's what they are._ If you don't like it, get another breed of dog. I by no means am saying that a APBT that is not DA isn't a "real" APBT, but that's what these dogs were made, were engineered, to do. They enjoy it. And I also, enjoy it. It's part of the APBT "ego", as I call it. They have the DA in their strut..."I'm better than any other dog and I know it.". It's part of the animal. Would you try to breed the herding out of a collie if you didn't like it? I would hope not, get a different dog. If you don't like what the APBT _is_, then you really shouldn't be involved with this breed.


Well, at least you were honest in saying you like to see dogs fight each other because they love it so much.

This one loooks like he's having a great time.










Excuse me while I go throw up.


----------



## BarbaraClark

Excuse me, but where in my post did I say that?


----------



## CavePaws

You don't need to tell me to get another breed of dog, I don't own an APBT. What I do own is a severely DA dog and it has taken the utmost diligence for me to keep her alive. The DA strut? Really? That's so laughable. So, what you enjoy is a trait in this breed you love so much that is literally killing thousands of them. A DA dog in the wrong hands is going to do severe damage and they are damaging the "reputation" of pitbulls and DA dog owners in the eyes of people who do not understand. Obviously it isn't just part of the animal if SO MANY of them are not DA. Get off your freaking bandwagon and wake the f*ck up. This "ego" you people have is KILLING the breed in more ways than one. You can have a dog who knows he is better than any other dog without having them be DA. I am not saying in any way that DA dogs don't belong on this earth; what I am saying is that people who think DA is "cool" and "enjoy it" don't belong on this earth.


----------



## BarbaraClark

And this is where you go wrong and put words in to my mouth. You assume that since I say I like DA, that I like dog fighting. I don't. But, to put a little information in that obviously ignorant head of yours, when real dogmen fight their dogs, they don't let it get that far...when there is a point where a certain dog looks like it is winning, they pull them apart. Dogs only end up like THAT (the pic you just posted) by inexperienced idiots who fight for their own entertainment and money. Thanks. But let me restate, I do not like dog fighting. But I understand and appreciate that this is part of the APBT history. When I said I liked it, I stated that I like the "ego". Anybody with a DA pit can understand this. When you are walking your dog, and another one passes, and he/she bows up, stands tall...he _knows_ without a shadow of a doubt, that he is better than that animal. That's the ego. That's what I love.


----------



## xellil

BarbaraClark said:


> Excuse me, but where in my post did I say that?





> The point is, APBT's were MADE to fight other dogs .... that's what these dogs were made, were engineered, to do. They enjoy it. And I also, enjoy it.


i don't know how you can make it any clearer, except to post photos of your dogs in an actual fight.


----------



## minnieme

BarbaraClark said:


> The point is, APBT's were MADE to fight other dogs. _That's what they are._ If you don't like it, get another breed of dog. I by no means am saying that a APBT that is not DA isn't a "real" APBT, but that's what these dogs were made, were engineered, to do. They enjoy it. *And I also, enjoy it. * It's part of the APBT "ego", as I call it. They have the DA in their strut..."I'm better than any other dog and I know it.". It's part of the animal. Would you try to breed the herding out of a collie if you didn't like it? I would hope not, get a different dog. If you don't like what the APBT _is_, then you really shouldn't be involved with this breed.


That statement was deplorable. You just threw any and all credibility out the window. 

Seriously disgusting.


----------



## BarbaraClark

CavePaws said:


> You don't need to tell me to get another breed of dog, I don't own an APBT. What I do own is a severely DA dog and it has taken the utmost diligence for me to keep her alive. The DA strut? Really? That's so laughable. So, what you enjoy is a trait in this breed you love so much that is literally killing thousands of them. A DA dog in the wrong hands is going to do severe damage and they are damaging the "reputation" of pitbulls and DA dog owners in the eyes of people who do not understand. Obviously it isn't just part of the animal if SO MANY of them are not DA. Get off your freaking bandwagon and wake the f*ck up. This "ego" you people have is KILLING the breed in more ways than one. You can have a dog who knows he is better than any other dog without having them be DA. I am not saying in any way that DA dogs don't belong on this earth; what I am saying is that people who think DA is "cool" and "enjoy it" don't belong on this earth.


The DA isn't killing them, ignorant people like you are. How can DA be damaging their reputation when that is what they have always been? You know nothing about the APBT and it's pretty sad. What's damaging their reputation is people linking DA with HA. Ignorant people out there seem to think that because a dog wants to attack another dog, he must want to attack people, too. THAT'S what is hurting the APBT. PEOPLE ARE.


----------



## CavePaws

BarbaraClark said:


> I'll just tell you - join a pit bull forum. Like pitbull-chat.com. I had a lot of ignorant ideas about the breed, then I joined that site. It will help you get better informed about the breed. I highly recommend it, it's a great site.





BarbaraClark said:


> The point is, APBT's were MADE to fight other dogs. _That's what they are._ If you don't like it, get another breed of dog. I by no means am saying that a APBT that is not DA isn't a "real" APBT, but that's what these dogs were made, were engineered, to do. They enjoy it. And I also, enjoy it. It's part of the APBT "ego", as I call it. They have the DA in their strut..."I'm better than any other dog and I know it.". It's part of the animal. Would you try to breed the herding out of a collie if you didn't like it? I would hope not, get a different dog. If you don't like what the APBT _is_, then you really shouldn't be involved with this breed.


AND I REQUOTE.



> The point is, APBT's were MADE to fight other dogs. _That's what they are._ If you don't like it, get another breed of dog. I by no means am saying that a APBT that is not DA isn't a "real" APBT, but that's what these dogs were made, were engineered, to do. They enjoy it. And I also, enjoy it. It's part of the APBT "ego", as I call it.


So, what the hell is DA so important for if you don't enjoy seeing dogs get in a fight?


----------



## BarbaraClark

CavePaws said:


> So, what the hell is DA so important for if you don't enjoy seeing dogs get in a fight?


Because that is what makes up the APBT.

Would you breed the herding out of a collie? As Cliff asked you?


----------



## xellil

When all else fails (again) - start calling people ignorant. Yep, that gets the point across.


----------



## BarbaraClark

Haha, now I'm a dog fighter because I don't disapprove of DA. Brilliant.


----------



## xellil

BarbaraClark said:


> Because that is what makes up the APBT.
> 
> Would you breed the herding out of a collie? As Cliff asked you?


I get so tired of hearing that. People dont' stand around and bet money two dogs can herd each other to death.


----------



## BarbaraClark

xellil said:


> I get so tired of hearing that. People dont' stand around and bet money two dogs can herd each other to death.


No they don't.

But the people that do that with the APBT aren't real dog handlers, either.


----------



## xellil

BarbaraClark said:


> Haha, now I'm a dog fighter because I don't disapprove of DA. Brilliant.


You said it, BahBara.


----------



## CavePaws

BarbaraClark said:


> I'll just tell you - join a pit bull forum. Like pitbull-chat.com. I had a lot of ignorant ideas about the breed, then I joined that site. It will help you get better informed about the breed. I highly recommend it, it's a great site.





BarbaraClark said:


> The point is, APBT's were MADE to fight other dogs. _That's what they are._ If you don't like it, get another breed of dog. I by no means am saying that a APBT that is not DA isn't a "real" APBT, but that's what these dogs were made, were engineered, to do. They enjoy it. And I also, enjoy it. It's part of the APBT "ego", as I call it. They have the DA in their strut..."I'm better than any other dog and I know it.". It's part of the animal. Would you try to breed the herding out of a collie if you didn't like it? I would hope not, get a different dog. If you don't like what the APBT _is_, then you really shouldn't be involved with this breed.





BarbaraClark said:


> The DA isn't killing them, ignorant people like you are. How can DA be damaging their reputation when that is what they have always been? You know nothing about the APBT and it's pretty sad. What's damaging their reputation is people linking DA with HA. Ignorant people out there seem to think that because a dog wants to attack another dog, he must want to attack people, too. THAT'S what is hurting the APBT. PEOPLE ARE.


Hmm, that's funny. I see a lot of Pitbulls in shelters...Wonder why? BECAUSE THEY HAVE ISSUES THE AVERAGE DOG OWNER IS NOT EQUIPPED TO HANDLE. You are living in fantasy land over there where seeing your dogs hackles raise and their lips curl is all too fun to watch. Let me make this clear; people like you who appreciate dog fighting, who appreciate when their dog "puffs up" are sickening to me. What would happen if you let your dog off leash? He would probably KILL the other dog. And you are proud of that? Seriously? You can have dogs who "know without a shadow of a doubt they are better" who do not want to kill other dogs. I have an extremely dominant shepherd mix who blows most DA dogs out of the water with how she doesn't give a sh*t if they growl and snarl at her. She is level headed and strong willed and stands tall with her tail high, knowing that if worse comes to worse she can hold her ground and she will come out on top. My DA dog however tries to start sh*t in unwarranted situations and I find it unacceptable because people think I am a horrible dog owner and my dog should be put to sleep. They don't understand that she was born this way. I understand that many pitbulls are born DA. Stop telling me I don't know diddly squat about the breed; even if I don't know the ins and outs of how these "DA MACHINES" were created, I understand DA more than most of you egotistical asswipes do. So STFU.

And as for your pitbullchat forum, I browse there, and I don't feel like mingling with those people. So many of them are complete scum and I will NEVER agree with what they stand for. I don't like getting really heated and pissed off in arguments because it shows a lack of control. But when people so clearly support something like DA and dog fighting, well, my blood boils and I see red. People like you Barbara, I'd welcome you into a fight with me because I do think I am better than you and I would try to snap your f*cking neck.


----------



## xellil

CavePaws said:


> And as for your pitbullchat forum, I browse there, and I don't feel like mingling with those people. So many of them are complete scum and I will NEVER agree with what they stand for. I don't like getting really heated and pissed off in arguments because it shows a lack of control. But when people so clearly support something like DA and dog fighting, well, my blood boils and I see red. People like you Barbara, I'd welcome you into a fight with me because I do think I am better than you and I would try to snap your f*cking neck.


I love you.


----------



## BarbaraClark

Lol, threats now?

Yes, I am glad that my breed of dog can't be owned by the average owner. I am glad that my dog takes a little more intelligence to handle than the average person.

Bottom line, you know nothing about the breed or it's history. I guess I'm glad you don't post on PBC, but I wish you would try to debate with them like this. They would eat you alive. They actually know what they're talking about when it comes to the APBT. I'm just an amateur in the breed at the moment. But I still know more than you.

Please don't ever breed. Not dogs, yourself.


----------



## lucky

*They enjoy it. And I also, enjoy it.*

You must be an extremely sick person to even think this, never mind post it on a forum full of dog lovers


----------



## BarbaraClark

lucky said:


> *They enjoy it. And I also, enjoy it.*
> 
> You must be an extremely sick person to even think this, never mind post it on a forum full of dog lovers


What do you think that I meant? That I love dog fighting? 

I clearly stated after that what I enjoy. Don't quote me out of context.


----------



## CavePaws

BarbaraClark said:


> Lol, threats now?
> 
> Yes, I am glad that my breed of dog can't be owned by the average owner. I am glad that my dog takes a little more intelligence to handle than the average person.
> 
> Bottom line, you know nothing about the breed or it's history. I guess I'm glad you don't post on PBC, but I wish you would try to debate with them like this. They would eat you alive. They actually know what they're talking about when it comes to the APBT. I'm just an amateur in the breed at the moment. But I still know more than you.
> 
> Please don't ever breed. Not dogs, yourself.


What, can't handle threats towards yourself but you like your dog threatening other dogs? Double standards all the way across the sky! So intense! 

Let me make it clear, I understand DA. I don't need to know the ins and outs of the APBTs history to have more of a handle on dog training and dog aggression than you. I have over 700 hours of class instruction, private lessons dealing with but not exclusive to DA; and you want to say you know more than me? Please. I've been to seminars hosted by some of the worlds top dog behaviorists speaking STRICTLY on DA. Why? Because I own a DA dog and I want to help DA dogs and people who own DA dogs. Now, until you can put your big girl pants on and actually learn a thing or two about DA I suggest you go back to your PBC forum and lurk in the dark corners of bathtub scum again. You novice dog owner, you.


----------



## xellil

BarbaraClark said:


> Lol, threats now?
> 
> Yes, I am glad that my breed of dog can't be owned by the average owner. I am glad that my dog takes a little more intelligence to handle than the average person.
> 
> Bottom line, you know nothing about the breed or it's history. I guess I'm glad you don't post on PBC, but I wish you would try to debate with them like this. They would eat you alive. They actually know what they're talking about when it comes to the APBT. I'm just an amateur in the breed at the moment. But I still know more than you.
> 
> Please don't ever breed. Not dogs, yourself.


You asked for it. Normal people loathe and despise people like you, who support dog fighting.


----------



## xellil

BarbaraClark said:


> What do you think that I meant? That I love dog fighting?
> 
> I clearly stated after that what I enjoy. Don't quote me out of context.


Nobody quoted anything out of context. That was you, word for word. You can go back and read your original post, in case you forgot what you said.

you didn't say you love it - you said you enjoy it. plain as fricken day.


----------



## Jimm

I thought this board was about feeding dogs.Lots of hostility here


----------



## BarbaraClark

AHAHA,

I don't know why I even tried. Cliff tried, he failed. I guess I failed, too.

I'm done. Goodbye.


----------



## xellil

BarbaraClark said:


> AHAHA,
> 
> I'm done. Goodbye.


YAY!!!

Bet you're lying, though.


----------



## RachelsaurusRexU

PLEASE, for the love of dog, go back to the hole you crawled out of. What's this, like the fifth time that obnoxious kid has sent people here to start crap? My goodness. We get it. You all need big, tough, aggressive dogs to make up for your shortcomings or for street cred or whatever. Go back to the hellhole that is PBC where you can speak with other like-minded individuals about whose dog could kill what faster, beating the crap out of your dogs and keeping your dogs on their "chain spots" 24/7. PLEASE. 

Man, this forum was SO peaceful before he started sending people here!


----------



## lucky

BarbaraClark said:


> The point is, APBT's were MADE to fight other dogs. _That's what they are._ If you don't like it, get another breed of dog. I by no means am saying that a APBT that is not DA isn't a "real" APBT, but that's what these dogs were made, were engineered, to do. They enjoy it. And I also, enjoy it. It's part of the APBT "ego", as I call it. They have the DA in their strut..."I'm better than any other dog and I know it.". It's part of the animal. Would you try to breed the herding out of a collie if you didn't like it? I would hope not, get a different dog. If you don't like what the APBT _is_, then you really shouldn't be involved with this breed.


The "ego" as you put it is trained into them by ignorant people like yourself, there are plenty of APBT's that are the sweetest dogs around, the ones that have DECENT LOVING owners!!!



BarbaraClark said:


> And this is where you go wrong and put words in to my mouth. You assume that since I say I like DA, that I like dog fighting. I don't. But, to put a little information in that obviously ignorant head of yours, when real dogmen fight their dogs, they don't let it get that far...when there is a point where a certain dog looks like it is winning, they pull them apart. Dogs only end up like THAT (the pic you just posted) by inexperienced idiots who fight for their own entertainment and money. Thanks. But let me restate, I do not like dog fighting. But I understand and appreciate that this is part of the APBT history. When I said I liked it, I stated that I like the "ego". Anybody with a DA pit can understand this. When you are walking your dog, and another one passes, and he/she bows up, stands tall...he _knows_ without a shadow of a doubt, that he is better than that animal. That's the ego. That's what I love.


----------



## BarbaraClark

RachelsaurusRexU said:


> PLEASE, for the love of dog, go back to the hole you crawled out of. What's this, like the fifth time that obnoxious kid has sent people here to start crap? My goodness. We get it. You all need big, tough, aggressive dogs to make up for your shortcomings or for street cred or whatever. Go back to the hellhole that is PBC where you can speak with other like-minded individuals about whose dog could kill what faster, beating the crap out of your dogs and keeping your dogs on their "chain spots" 24/7. PLEASE.
> 
> Man, this forum was SO peaceful before he started sending people here!


Waait whaaaaat, what do mean about "beating the crap out of your dogs" and "chain spots"? Elaborate on that for me, please. I'm done trying to educate people on DA, but what do you mean about those two statements?


----------



## xellil

BarbaraClark said:


> Waait whaaaaat, what do mean about "beating the crap out of your dogs" and "chain spots"? Elaborate on that for me, please. I'm done trying to educate people on DA, but what do you mean about those two statements?


Told you so.


----------



## BarbaraClark

lucky said:


> The "ego" as you put it is trained into them by ignorant people like yourself, there are plenty of APBT's that are the sweetest dogs around, the ones that have DECENT LOVING owners!!!


It's not trained into them, many APBT's are already DA. Please don't tell me that you believe these dogs are trained to fight?


----------



## CavePaws

BarbaraClark said:


> AHAHA,
> 
> you guys are so retarded that it's comical. I don't know why I even tried. Cliff tried, he failed. I guess I failed, too. You can't fix stupid.
> 
> I'm done. Goodbye.


 You only have to have half a brain cell to see that DA kills a lot of dogs. But, you don't see it. People like you don't need hands to be holding a dogs leash. I will gladly remove them for you if you'd like to come pay me a visit. If you'd like to PM me for my address I'd be glad to meet you on my front porch with a hack saw.


And LOL. HA. HAHAHA. Trying to educate people on DA? Please, where are your credentials. I'd love to hear about what seminars you've attended and what trainers you've worked under. Please. Grow an education.


----------



## BarbaraClark

CavePaws said:


> No, we aren't retarded, you are. You only have to have half a brain cell to see that DA kills a lot of dogs. But, you don't see it. People like you don't need hands to be holding a dogs leash. I will gladly remove them for you if you'd like to come pay me a visit. If you'd like to PM me for my address I'd be glad to meet you on my front porch with a hack saw.


You should stop with the threats. It makes you look immature and pretty stupid.


----------



## lucky

BarbaraClark said:


> The point is, APBT's were MADE to fight other dogs. _That's what they are._ If you don't like it, get another breed of dog. I by no means am saying that a APBT that is not DA isn't a "real" APBT, but that's what these dogs were made, were engineered, to do. They enjoy it. And I also, enjoy it. It's part of the APBT "ego", as I call it. They have the DA in their strut..."I'm better than any other dog and I know it.". It's part of the animal. Would you try to breed the herding out of a collie if you didn't like it? I would hope not, get a different dog. If you don't like what the APBT _is_, then you really shouldn't be involved with this breed.





BarbaraClark said:


> It's not trained into them, many APBT's are already DA. Please don't tell me that you believe these dogs are trained to fight?


Well can you please explain why a lot of APBT's are the sweetest, friendliest dogs around


----------



## RachelsaurusRexU

Jimm said:


> I thought this board was about feeding dogs.Lots of hostility here


It's only hostile because for the past month we've had a slew of trolls coming over from another forum picking fights with everyone.


----------



## lucky

BarbaraClark said:


> AHAHA,
> 
> you guys are so retarded that it's comical. I don't know why I even tried. Cliff tried, he failed. I guess I failed, too. You can't fix stupid.
> 
> I'm done. Goodbye.


retarded for not supporting dog fighting, are you for real?


----------



## kady05

RachelsaurusRexU said:


> PLEASE, for the love of dog, go back to the hole you crawled out of. What's this, like the fifth time that obnoxious kid has sent people here to start crap? My goodness. We get it. You all need big, tough, aggressive dogs to make up for your shortcomings or for street cred or whatever. Go back to the hellhole that is PBC where you can speak with other like-minded individuals about whose dog could kill what faster, beating the crap out of your dogs and keeping your dogs on their "chain spots" 24/7. PLEASE.
> 
> Man, this forum was SO peaceful before he started sending people here!


Um, easy there tiger. No one sent me here, I came here because I was switching Piper to raw and wanted a forum specifically geared toward that. I have however, recommended this forum to other members there who were interested in raw feeding. I guess I'll stop now since PBC members have been repeatedly referred to as "scum". 

Everyone is going to have different opinions on everything, it's what makes the world go around. So I'm not even sure why this thread is still going.. it's gone around, and around, and around, and it's not going to stop because not everyone is going to agree. Some people like DA, some people don't. Some people accept it as a breed trait and don't think it should be bred out, some people don't accept it and think people should bred it out. There you go. End of discussion.


----------



## CavePaws

BarbaraClark said:


> You should stop with the threats. It makes you look immature and pretty stupid.


I'm saying you don't need hands and I will gladly remove them for you. It's actually less of a threat than your dog lunging at the end of a leash trying to get a hold of another persons dogs skin. You still have not let me know about your credentials as a person ever so knowledgeable on DA. I'm waiting with an open mind here. Please, let me know.


----------



## BarbaraClark

lucky said:


> Well can you please explain why a lot of APBT's are the sweetest, friendliest dogs around


For the MOST part, pure bred APBT's are DA. But sometimes they are just not. I don't know why.


----------



## xellil

makes me appreciate committed2excellence more and more. He gives me hope that yes, there are some good people out there who aren't such cowards they have to have a tough dog to make up for it.


----------



## kady05

CavePaws said:


> No, we aren't retarded, you are. You only have to have half a brain cell to see that DA kills a lot of dogs. But, you don't see it. People like you don't need hands to be holding a dogs leash. I will gladly remove them for you if you'd like to come pay me a visit. If you'd like to PM me for my address I'd be glad to meet you on my front porch with a hack saw.


Also, you may want to calm down with the threats. You do realize that internet threats are a serious matter and you can be arrested for them? Plus, it makes you sound extremely immature. Hack saw? Seriously??


----------



## BarbaraClark

kady05 said:


> Um, easy there tiger. No one sent me here, I came here because I was switching Piper to raw and wanted a forum specifically geared toward that. I have however, recommended this forum to other members there who were interested in raw feeding. I guess I'll stop now since PBC members have been repeatedly referred to as "scum".
> 
> Everyone is going to have different opinions on everything, it's what makes the world go around. So I'm not even sure why this thread is still going.. it's gone around, and around, and around, and it's not going to stop because not everyone is going to agree. Some people like DA, some people don't. Some people accept it as a breed trait and don't think it should be bred out, some people don't accept it and think people should bred it out. There you go. End of discussion.


This. Thanks, Kady.


----------



## CavePaws

Kady, you do understand that it looks incredibly irresponsible and dumb for someone to state they support dog aggression and the past "Dog Men" who DID fight dogs to the death? I'm threatening her as much as she is threatening other people's dogs with her blind support of DA. If an officer would like to come to my house and speak to me about why I am making these threats, I will gladly speak with them about why I've said what I've said. I certainly won't be thrown in jail for what I've said; so, I'm not worried.

And yes, a hack saw. It seems like a great way to remove hands rather slowly.


edit: And LOL. To think you guys are so worried about internet threats but not so worried about a dog who is a real threat to other dogs. Where are your priorities?

I'm throwing all these "threats" out in jest. I think it's rather funny to parallel what DA dogs will do to each other with what an HA person would do to another person.


----------



## xellil

kady05 said:


> Um, easy there tiger. No one sent me here, I came here because I was switching Piper to raw and wanted a forum specifically geared toward that. I have however, recommended this forum to other members there who were interested in raw feeding. I guess I'll stop now since PBC members have been repeatedly referred to as "scum".


People who like to see dogs fight and prefer dogs who want to do so are the problem, not people from any particular forum. I've never been to that forum.


----------



## nupe

WOW What a thread...Calling people out to fight.....and this thread has not been stopped by the moderators or staff of the forum??.((33 pages and still going)).HMMMM Interesting. I guess it all depends on who making the threats on here or who is in the "POPULAR or IN crowd " .


----------



## CavePaws

nupe said:


> WOW What a thread...Calling people out to fight.....and this thread has not been stopped by the moderators or staff of the forum??.((33 pages and still going)).HMMMM Interesting. I guess it all depends on who making the threats on here or who is in the "POPULAR or IN crowd " .


I can bet you I will receive a warning at the very least from one of the mods. I'll tell you my "threats" are all about their wording too. I WELCOMED her to my porch and I WELCOMED her to fight. I didn't say I would go out on a man hunt and behead her. Please. I'm paralleling aggression in people who want to do harm to other people with aggression in dogs who want to do harm to other dogs.

edit: As far as the "popular" or "in crowd" I HIGHLY doubt the moderators agree with me on everything I post. I don't think everyone on this forum likes me; I'd be dumb as a brick to think that. But, I think a lot of people agree with me that dog fighting is immoral and being an egotistical freak about your dog being DA is just trashy and wrong.


----------



## BarbaraClark

"Parallel" whatever you want, you sound like an idiot.


----------



## CavePaws

Hey Barbara, what exactly do you know about DA? I'd love to know where you've been in your journey with it and who you've talked to about it.


----------



## RachelsaurusRexU

kady05 said:


> Um, easy there tiger. No one sent me here, I came here because I was switching Piper to raw and wanted a forum specifically geared toward that. I have however, recommended this forum to other members there who were interested in raw feeding. I guess I'll stop now since PBC members have been repeatedly referred to as "scum".
> 
> Everyone is going to have different opinions on everything, it's what makes the world go around. So I'm not even sure why this thread is still going.. it's gone around, and around, and around, and it's not going to stop because not everyone is going to agree. Some people like DA, some people don't. Some people accept it as a breed trait and don't think it should be bred out, some people don't accept it and think people should bred it out. There you go. End of discussion.


I wasn't referring to you, Kady. I was referring to the handful of people who came here solely to trashtalk and start beef, no pun intended.


----------



## xellil

nupe said:


> WOW What a thread...Calling people out to fight.....and this thread has not been stopped by the moderators or staff of the forum??.((33 pages and still going)).HMMMM Interesting. I guess it all depends on who making the threats on here or who is in the "POPULAR or IN crowd " .


Or maybe it's because people who have never been here before (supposedly) come here to say they enjoy dogfighting and then cry foul when someone offers to take them up on it - only not with the dogs involved. What other reaction would you expect toward people who openly support dogfighting? It's everything that is wrong with pit bull ownership.

By the way, I am not part of the in crowd here. Some of the moderators really dislike me.


----------



## BarbaraClark

CavePaws said:


> Hey Barbara, what exactly do you know about DA? I'd love to know where you've been in your journey with it and who you've talked to about it.


I'm not answering you, because you seem to think that the only people who can have knowledge about anything are people that have attended seminars or personally talked to professionals about it.


----------



## BarbaraClark

xellil said:


> Or maybe it's because people who have never been here before (supposedly) come here to say they enjoy dogfighting and then cry foul when someone offers to take them up on it - only not with the dogs involved. What other reaction would you expect toward people who openly support dogfighting? It's everything that is wrong with pit bull ownership.
> 
> By the way, I am not part of the in crowd here. Some of the moderators really dislike me.


Never once did I say that I support dog fighting. That's a severely idiotic statement.


----------



## xellil

BarbaraClark said:


> Never once did I say that I support dog fighting. That's a severely idiotic statement.


So sorry. you just said you enjoy it. My mistake.


----------



## xellil

BarbaraClark said:


> I'm not answering you, because you seem to think that the only people who can have knowledge about anything are people that have attended seminars or personally talked to professionals about it.


HAHAHAHHA. Ha. Ha. That is seriously the most hilarious statement I have read on this thread. And you call US ignorant and retarded?

Didn't you say you were leaving?


----------



## minnieme

nupe said:


> WOW What a thread...Calling people out to fight.....and this thread has not been stopped by the moderators or staff of the forum??.((33 pages and still going)).HMMMM Interesting. I guess it all depends on who making the threats on here or who is in the "POPULAR or IN crowd " .



Um.....or maybe it's because they have lives outside of DFC like all the rest of us and just don't happen to be on at the moment???? 

The name-calling and pseudo threats are petty and stupid and are detracting from the argument at hand. 

With that said, I stand by my comment of Barbara's posts being largely deplorable and disgusting. Then again, I am not going to tailor my arguments to a person who said they were going to leave five pages ago and is clearly not going to be persuaded one way or the other. 

Dog fighting is sick. People who find dog fighting okay because that's what a breed did at one despicably low point in history are sick. Period.


----------



## BarbaraClark

xellil said:


> So sorry. you just said you enjoy it. My mistake.


Wrong again.


----------



## lucky

It really gets to me when a certain breed is labelled/stereotyped ... My dad has 3 aggressive chihuahua/yorkies, I also used to live next door to an aggressive lab, I believe that ANY breed of dog has the potential to be dangerous but the reason that APBT's are sometimes thought of as being "fighters" is because of people like you Barbara and it is very unfortunate for the breed, the breed as a whole are very unlucky to have owners like you and ultimately people like you have become their downfall


----------



## xellil

BarbaraClark said:


> Wrong again.


Well I'll make it right. And since your comment was several pages ago, maybe some people need to be reminded of what you said.



> The point is, APBT's were MADE to fight other dogs. That's what they are. If you don't like it, get another breed of dog. I by no means am saying that a APBT that is not DA isn't a "real" APBT, *but that's what these dogs were made, were engineered, to do. They enjoy it. And I also, enjoy it.*


you also said you were leaving a long time ago. Dang, it would be nice if people meant what they said.


----------



## Muttkip

For the love of God, would one of the damn Mods just lock this thread already like I asked?!


----------



## BarbaraClark

lucky said:


> It really gets to me when a certain breed is labelled/stereotyped ... My dad has 3 aggressive chihuahua/yorkies, I also used to live next door to an aggressive lab, I believe that ANY breed of dog has the potential to be dangerous but the reason that APBT's are sometimes thought of as being "fighters" is because of people like you Barbara and it is very unfortunate for the breed, the breed as a whole are very unlucky to have owners like you and ultimately people like you have become their downfall


Thought of as being fighters? Hunny, THAT'S WHAT THEY ARE. They were bred to be fighters. That's what they were made to be.


----------



## MollyWoppy

I'm typical Joe Public. If I'm walking down the street and pass a pitbull on a leash that is strutting, snarling, barking and straining to get at my dog who's merely passing by, then yes, in my eyes, that is exactly what stereotypes the breed. Most people dont' know the difference between DA and HA, and they don't care, all they see a snarling dog already with a bad reputation and it scares them and reinforces their belief. 
You could tell me till your blue in the face that oh, it's fine, he won't bite you, but he will kill your dog given half the chance, then yep, that would make me feel a lot better. (sarcasm).
And, just as an observer, when I read that one particular post you made barbaraclark, I also understood it to mean that you enjoy dog fighting. Maybe you should have edited your post if you are sincere that that is not what you meant.


----------



## BarbaraClark

MollyWoppy said:


> I'm typical Joe Public. If I'm walking down the street and pass a pitbull on a leash that is strutting, snarling, barking and straining to get at my dog who's merely passing by, then yes, in my eyes, that is exactly what stereotypes the breed. Most people dont' know the difference between DA and HA, and they don't care, all they see a snarling dog already with a bad reputation and it scares them and reinforces their belief.
> You could tell me till your blue in the face that oh, it's fine, he won't bite you, but he will kill your dog given half the chance, then yep, that would make me feel a lot better. (sarcasm).
> And, just as an observer, when I read that one particular post you made barbaraclark, I also understood it to mean that you enjoy dog fighting. Maybe you should have edited your post if you are sincere that that is not what you meant.


Not what I meant. And I said afterwards what it is that I enjoy.

I think a few people on here need to be educated about the breed and what it was actually bred for and about people that handle them correctly. When most people think of dog fighting, they attribute it to a bunch of low lives that stand around two starving, beaten dogs who are being forced to fight to the death. The people that do this are idiots. 

If you look into the history of the APBT, you will learn how it was actually done. The dogs were matched together, and once a clear winner was chosen, they were pulled apart. It was VERY rare that these dogs were killed, or even severely injured. And no one had to train or force these dogs to fight. They loved to fight, they loved what they did. It was in their hearts. Research the history and you will realize this. The dog fighting of today is nothing like what these animals were bred for. I do not support dog fighting though, and do not put the words in my mouth that I do. I RESPECT it as part of this breeds great history.

Many people will say "well, whether they love it or not, it's dangerous for them to do". So are many other things that dogs are bred for. Like herding, or hunting. A dog could easily, and have been many times, trampled by the livestock he/she is herding. Many dogs have been killed by the boars they were hunting. But these dogs LOVE what they do.


----------



## xellil

> Aggression in Pit Bulls isn't some unique or special form - it is still
> aggression, plain and simple. Aggressive behavior by definition is
> defensive behavior. And it is dangerous and costly behavior that
> can result in serious wounds or death - dogs only aggress when
> they perceive a strong need. *It is foolish to assume that Pit Bulls
> fight for “fun”, or for any reason other than what makes any other
> breed of dog fight – it is defensive, there is a perceived need, and
> the dog feels it has no other choice.*
> *
> The "they love to fight" defense has been used too often, and it
> is time this notion was put to rest.*


Dog Fighting - Then, Now


----------



## BarbaraClark

xellil said:


> Dog Fighting - Then, Now


Hahahahaha, where did you get this from?

Someone needs to do some serious research. They love what they do, end of story. Do some studying and you will see how stupid you sound.


----------



## xellil

BarbaraClark said:


> Hahahahaha, where did you get this from?
> 
> Someone needs to do some serious research. They love what they do, end of story. Do some studying and you will see how stupid you sound.


CLick the link. I posted where I got this from. Maybe YOU should do a little research, you are wrong in all directions.


----------



## xellil

> he truth is, pit bulls or American Pit Bull Terriers do not love to fight. In the early part of the 20th century, this breed was the most popular pet dog in America. This breed, like all dogs, craves attention and affection and require commitment to proper socialization and training. Dogs are pack animals so in normal circumstances, they live, sleep, eat and play together. They do not normally want to attack and kill each other. You only have to look at pictures of pit bulls after a fight and you can see the pain they suffer.


by the way, you can click the link.

What You Might not Know About Dog Fighting | Mastiff.Training Care.net

i can do this all day. You obviously get your information from people who "enjoy" seeing dogs fight because you have to rationalize it somehow.


----------



## CavePaws

BarbaraClark said:


> I'm not answering you, because you seem to think that the only people who can have knowledge about anything are people that have attended seminars or personally talked to professionals about it.


You aren't answering me because you know very little about dog aggression in general. Ya, of course I want to know who you've spoken with on the subject, it's not like people are magically born with all the knowledge in the world on dog aggression. At some point you do actually have to TALK to or LISTEN TO someone knowledgeable to learn about something this complex. You can't just wikipedia your way through dog aggression. Sorry if you thought otherwise.


----------



## BarbaraClark

xellil said:


> CLick the link. I posted where I got this from. Maybe YOU should do a little research, you are wrong in all directions.


I don't know the website

I seriously think you should join pitbull-chat.com. There are people there that have been dealing with this breed longer than you have been alive. That is where I am getting my information from. Dogmen who have dealt with these animals for generations...you need to go and get educated,


----------



## BarbaraClark

Like I said, visit PBC. There are people there that are experts on this breed. THAT is where I get my information from. I don't get it from some article...I get it from actual people who breed and show and sport their dogs...real dogmen. Go learn a few things.


----------



## xellil

BarbaraClark said:


> Like I said, visit PBC. There are people there that are experts on this breed. THAT is where I get my information from. I don't get it from some shitty article...I get it from actual people who breed and show and sport their dogs...real dogmen. Go learn a few things.


Yep, you and all the other people who enjoy dogfighting get together and say they all love to fight. Makes perfect sense to me.


----------



## xellil

> *Fiction*- Pit bulls are used for fighting because they are born aggressive and love to fight.
> 
> *Fact*- Pit bulls are used for fighting because they are intelligent, loyal and eager to please their masters. Once a person is accepted as master, the dog will lay down his life for you. Pit bulls are known for their determination/gameness, not to be confused with aggression


Pittie Please, Educate Yourself Before You Bully Me!!! - Good Deeds For Bullied Breeds

this is what is most sickening to me. Take a dog who loves people more than anything, and pit him against another dog and he will do it because he loves you so much. And rationalize it by saying the dog wants to do it. Thoroughly disgusting.


----------



## Jimm

Barbara-It is very clear to anyone that you have no idea what you are talking about and part of what you are implying about other members of PBC is not true.
I like apbt's but I do not own them because I like DA. I own the breed because I like it and most of the time DA is part of the package.
I don't like being seen out and about with dogs or their strut or whatever other stuff you are saying.
I simply enjoy having a good,healthy dog and whether I chain them,crate them or whatever is nobody elses business because I would not do anything to hurt the breed or the dog.


----------



## 3Musketeers

All I have to say is, that DA *IS* ruining it for the breed, and if people keep breeding pits with severe DA, then we're only going to see BSL against them passed everywhere, the situation will only get worse.
Not *ONLY* because the dog may be DA, since it can be managed with responsible owners.

But, you have to remember, *many* dog owners, *especially* APBT owners, are the irresponsible type who only want the dog to make them look tough, oh and you better bet those kind of people don't lurk on pit-bull chat, or any other forums because they don't actually give a flying pig about their dogs, it's nothing but an image to them, the badder, the better. Average joe who forgets he leaves the gate open and the dog runs loose every so often. A severly DA dog in that situation *IS* a big threat. It attacks/kills another dog and people do get scared and think it's a child-eating beast. Then people attribute that to ALL APBTS.
A lot of these owners simply cannot or do not care to manage the DA in their dogs, plain and simple.

I'm not saying to breed out DA altogether in one day (realistically that would take a lot of outcrossing and many, many years), but the few responsible breeders, should, at least, strive to breed APBTs with less DA. It's one thing to get into some scuffles, to be wary of other dogs, have a short temper, or low tolerance around other dogs. But when it comes to a dog so DA that it wants to kill a dog, a dog that has done nothing to provoke them, that dog should never be bred IMO.

One thing is for sure, we can't stop the idiots from having more children, so something else needs to be done.


----------



## BarbaraClark

xellil said:


> Pittie Please, Educate Yourself Before You Bully Me!!! - Good Deeds For Bullied Breeds
> 
> this is what is most sickening to me. Take a dog who loves people more than anything, and pit him against another dog and he will do it because he loves you so much. And rationalize it by saying the dog wants to do it. Thoroughly disgusting.



Wow, both the statement you made and the comment you quoted are STUPID. Have you ever owned an APBT? They are BORN dog aggressive. These sites you are going to are not fact - they are the words of extremists.


----------



## BarbaraClark

3Musketeers said:


> All I have to say is, that DA *IS* ruining it for the breed, and if people keep breeding pits with severe DA, then we're only going to see BSL against them passed everywhere, the situation will only get worse.
> Not *ONLY* because the dog may be DA, since it can be managed with responsible owners.
> 
> But, you have to remember, *many* dog owners, *especially* APBT owners, are the irresponsible type who only want the dog to make them look tough, oh and you better bet those kind of people don't lurk on pit-bull chat, or any other forums because they don't actually give a flying pig about their dogs, it's nothing but an image to them, the badder, the better. Average joe who forgets he leaves the gate open and the dog runs loose every so often. A severly DA dog in that situation *IS* a big threat. It attacks/kills another dog and people do get scared and think it's a child-eating beast. Then people attribute that to ALL APBTS.
> A lot of these owners simply cannot or do not care to manage the DA in their dogs, plain and simple.
> 
> I'm not saying to breed out DA altogether in one day (realistically that would take a lot of outcrossing and many, many years), but the few responsible breeders, should, at least, strive to breed APBTs with less DA. It's one thing to get into some scuffles, to be wary of other dogs, have a short temper, or low tolerance around other dogs. But when it comes to a dog so DA that it wants to kill a dog, a dog that has done nothing to provoke them, that dog should never be bred IMO.
> 
> One thing is for sure, we can't stop the idiots from having more children, so something else needs to be done.


They did try to breed the DA out of APBT's. It's called the American Staffordshire. And even then, there are still some DA AmStaffs. It's hard to reverse hundreds and hundreds of years of perfect engineering.


----------



## BarbaraClark

Jimm said:


> Barbara-It is very clear to anyone that you have no idea what you are talking about and part of what you are implying about other members of PBC is not true.
> I like apbt's but I do not own them because I like DA. I own the breed because I like it and most of the time DA is part of the package.
> I don't like being seen out and about with dogs or their strut or whatever other stuff you are saying.
> I simply enjoy having a good,healthy dog and whether I chain them,crate them or whatever is nobody elses business because I would not do anything to hurt the breed or the dog.


I'm not implying anything about PBC?

_"I would not do anything to hurt the breed or the dog." Neither would I. _


----------



## bernadettelevis

Barbara please go to you tube and watch Out of the pit. Then tell me again that you enjoy dog fighting and that the dogs enjoy it....
Seriously what is wrong with you????


----------



## xellil

BarbaraClark said:


> Wow, both the statement you made and the comment you quoted are STUPID. Have you ever owned an APBT? They are BORN dog aggressive. These sites you are going to are not fact - they are the words of extremists.


Anything that you disagree with you will say is stupid. You get together with all your other asinine cretin buddies and tell each other your dogs love to fight and ignore everything to the contrary. 

Loving to fight and being forced to fight are not the same thing. But of course, since you enjoy watching it and you think having a tough dog makes you tough (and that's what counts in your world) you won't see that.

Put about a million rolleyes here. I am too lazy to add them all.


----------



## BarbaraClark

bernadettelevis said:


> Barbara please go to you tube and watch Out of the pit. Then tell me again that you enjoy dog fighting and that the dogs enjoy it....
> Seriously what is wrong with you????


I never said I enjoy dog fighting, dear lord.


----------



## BarbaraClark

xellil said:


> Anything that you disagree with you will say is stupid. You get together with all your other asinine cretin buddies and tell each other your dogs love to fight and ignore everything to the contrary.
> 
> Loving to fight and being forced to fight are not the same thing. But of course, since you enjoy watching it and you think having a tough dog makes you tough (and that's what counts in your world) you won't see that.
> 
> Put about a million rolleyes here. I am too lazy to add them all.


Because it's stupid. Those sites aren't based on any actual facts AT ALL. It's comical. It's like I'm holding a blue pen and you're telling me it's red. Uh, it's just stupid, and totally WRONG. Or like you giving me a link to a site that says there's no such thing as the state of Louisiana. Once again....


----------



## xellil

BarbaraClark said:


> I never said I enjoy dog fighting, dear lord.


Well, dang. I guess it's time to quote you again.



> he point is, APBT's were MADE to fight other dogs. That's what they are. If you don't like it, get another breed of dog. I by no means am saying that a APBT that is not DA isn't a "real" APBT, *but that's what these dogs were made, were engineered, to do. They enjoy it. And I also, enjoy it.*


----------



## BarbaraClark

xellil said:


> Well, dang. I guess it's time to quote you again.


Quote the rest after that ***** and it goes on to say what I meant when I said enjoy.


----------



## BarbaraClark

I'm seriously done with this thread. I hope the mods lock it. And soon.

At first I thought you were just ignorant...but now I know. Join pitbull-chat and you will get the facts you want. Or, join it just to see what others are saying? Seriously, what could it hurt? Join it.


GOODBYE.


----------



## bernadettelevis

Well i actually just went to PBC and looked at the thread you opened about DA. It seems to me that even there most people do NOT agree with you!
Let me just quote some sentence from people there:

But I digress, I agree with you DA in and of itself is not a desired trait to bred for.

Read more: Opinions on DA?

Personally..i find it ANNOYING as hell. She embarssaes the fk outta me and tries to go thru my truck window if she sees another dog. She only gets along with about 3 dogs. I am aware that it is a trait that this breed can have. I would prefer my dog NOT to be dA. i dont LOVE the 'demeanor when i walk around other dogs'. Havent a CLUE what you're saying about 'my shit dont stink walk'. when my dog is in close distance to another dog..she doesnt WALK..she goes nuts. I personally dont find DA to be their DRIVE.

Read more: Opinions on DA?


So if not even the people there agree with you, maybe, just maybe you should rethinkt your opinion on dogs, apbt and DA....


----------



## RachelsaurusRexU

Do you SERIOUSLY have nothing more constructive to do with your time than come to a forum and start slinging insults at people you don't know?! Good Godzilla...it may be time for a hobby.


----------



## DoglovingSenior

*Just had a dog fight*

Barbara, Barbara, Barbara! I tried, but the teacher in me came to the fore. If the written fact that you do enjoy dog fighting is not what you said, then you shouldn't have written it. You probably should have paid more attention in your English Grammar classes, particularly to those that dealt with sentence structure-for that is EXACTLY what you wrote. As for Kady05, the jury is still out, though I have cringed at some of her comments.
Why all of the support for this EXTREME DA? I have had large protective, herding breeds for most of my life. GSD's and Rottweilers. I went theough the banning CRAP mostly with my Rotties. Were they DA, not really-they got along well! with other dogs, never had a problem in group settings, none of that. Would they have protected their family against other dogs-Yep! Against humans? Yep! My Greatest Rottie demonstrated this on 3 occasions, that I can remember. Were they courageous, certainly as I have stated above. Courage and DA or HA are two very different things.

I now have (and have had for 8 years) an APBT. He is a gem. Courage-lots of it. DA none that I can remember. Oh, he is protection trained. So, I do support that the "scum" :smile: that believe this extreme DA should be a breed standard" should crawl back to the slime and crawl under the rocks from whence they came! I notice that committed 2excellence challenged all who wished him to fight his dogs to FIRST fight him-I wonder SHY their were never any takers? I am a logical thinker, your arguments contain NO logic therefore I cannot accept them.

To quote Albert Einstein-you do know who he was don't you? Anyway "The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limitations.":smile:


----------



## xellil

BarbaraClark said:


> Quote the rest after that, ******* and it goes on to say what I meant when I said enjoy.


Oh I love it when someone calls me a ******. it means they have no argument. 

sure, I'll quote the whole thing, I left it off because it doesn't make any difference, but in the interest of fairness:



> The point is, APBT's were MADE to fight other dogs. That's what they are. If you don't like it, get another breed of dog. I by no means am saying that a APBT that is not DA isn't a "real" APBT, but that's what these dogs were made, were engineered, to do. They enjoy it. And I also, enjoy it. It's part of the APBT "ego", as I call it. They have the DA in their strut..."I'm better than any other dog and I know it.". It's part of the animal. Would you try to breed the herding out of a collie if you didn't like it? I would hope not, get a different dog. If you don't like what the APBT is, then you really shouldn't be involved with this breed.


Promises, promises. yoiu said you were going to leave about 15 pages ago and dang, you're stilll here.


----------



## lucky

BarbaraClark said:


> Thought of as being fighters? Hunny, THAT'S WHAT THEY ARE. They were bred to be fighters. That's what they were made to be.


The reason that some are the way they are is because PEOPLE LIKE YOU WERE BORN. it is pointless trying to reason with someone who cannot be reasoned with


----------



## BarbaraClark

Everyone there has different opinions. I am still learning and all. But like I said, I'm done.

And I only started insulting when someone on here threatened to cut my hands off with a hack saw.

Everything that I have stated has been told to me as fact.


----------



## bernadettelevis

or this:

Quote Originally Posted by BarbaraClark View Post
Would you say the old champions loved what they did? that they loved to fight?
They had the undeniable will to dominate their opponent.
Pit bulls were selectively bred to fight for more than a century, well maybe a couple of centuries.
If they would not fight, they are eliminated from the gene pool.
Pit bulls didn't "love" to fight ... more accurately ... they are genetically programmed for it.

Read more: Opinions on DA?


----------



## BarbaraClark

bernadettelevis said:


> or this:
> 
> Quote Originally Posted by BarbaraClark View Post
> Would you say the old champions loved what they did? that they loved to fight?
> They had the undeniable will to dominate their opponent.
> Pit bulls were selectively bred to fight for more than a century, well maybe a couple of centuries.
> If they would not fight, they are eliminated from the gene pool.
> Pit bulls didn't "love" to fight ... more accurately ... they are genetically programmed for it.
> 
> Read more: Opinions on DA?


That's an OPINION. It's funny how you're only posting the ones that say they don't agree with something I am saying here.


----------



## xellil

No pit bull wants to fight. There are some who WON'T fight. Ask Michael Vick what he did with them.


----------



## bernadettelevis

Well i can post the thread and i don't see where anyone agrees with your opinion on DA and dog fighting.....nobody there enyojs the "attitude" of a DA dog or enjoy that they would kill another dog....so if you didn't et your opinion from there, where did you get it from?


----------



## BarbaraClark

xellil said:


> No pit bull wants to fight. There are some who WON'T fight. Ask Michael Vick what he did with them.


An APBT that has to be forced to fight is not an APBT.


----------



## BarbaraClark

bernadettelevis said:


> Well i can post the thread and i don't see where anyone agrees with your opinion on DA and dog fighting.....nobody there enyojs the "attitude" of a DA dog or enjoy that they would kill another dog....so if you didn't et your opinion from there, where did you get it from?


You didn't look at all of it.


----------



## xellil

BarbaraClark said:


> An APBT that has to be forced to fight is not an APBT.


Nope, they are known as "bait." Or thrown into a pool and electrocuted while they try to crawl out. 

You've said you were going to leave three times. If you're not going to leave, please quit saying so and getting my hopes up.


----------



## bernadettelevis

BarbaraClark said:


> You didn't look at all of it.


yes i did and not even Cliffdog says that he enjoys DA or dog fighting or what ever you meant.


----------



## BarbaraClark

xellil said:


> Nope, they are known as "bait." Or thrown into a pool and electrocuted while they try to crawl out.
> 
> You've said you were going to leave three times. If you're not going to leave, please quit saying so and getting my hopes up.


I'll do whatever I want. You didn't have a logical rebuttal for the fact I gave you. An APBT that has to be forced to fight is not an APBT. The dogs that have to be forced to fight must be mixes.


----------



## bernadettelevis

BarbaraClark said:


> An APBT that has to be forced to fight is not an APBT.


Well the people on PBC have a different opinion on that!


----------



## xellil

BarbaraClark said:


> You didn't look at all of it.


I just posted the whole fricken thing for the fourth time. It's the whole entire post.

You want to see it AGAIN?? quit saying you didn't say what you said. 



> The point is, APBT's were MADE to fight other dogs. That's what they are. If you don't like it, get another breed of dog. I by no means am saying that a APBT that is not DA isn't a "real" APBT, but that's what these dogs were made, were engineered, to do. They enjoy it. And I also, enjoy it. It's part of the APBT "ego", as I call it. They have the DA in their strut..."I'm better than any other dog and I know it.". It's part of the animal. Would you try to breed the herding out of a collie if you didn't like it? I would hope not, get a different dog. If you don't like what the APBT is, then you really shouldn't be involved with this breed.


There IS nothing else.


----------



## BarbaraClark

bernadettelevis said:


> yes i did and not even Cliffdog says that he enjoys DA or dog fighting or what ever you meant.


You guys are saying DA and dog fighting is the same now? I said I enjoy the DA and all of a sudden I enjoy dog fighting? Hmmm. And he said "I love a good fired-up dog." That's what I meant when I said "I enjoy DA".


----------



## BarbaraClark

xellil said:


> I just posted the whole fricken thing for the fourth time. It's the whole entire post.
> 
> You want to see it AGAIN?? quit saying you didn't say what you said.
> 
> 
> 
> There IS nothing else.


I wasn't talking to you.


----------



## BarbaraClark

bernadettelevis said:


> Well the people on PBC have a different opinion on that!


No actually, they don't.


----------



## xellil

BarbaraClark said:


> No actually, they don't.


Then go back there and talk smack about the people over here. Maybe you can even get together with them and get your dogs to fight, because they love it so much. Wouldn't want to deprive them.


----------



## bernadettelevis

BarbaraClark said:


> You guys are saying DA and dog fighting is the same now? I said I enjoy the DA and all of a sudden I enjoy dog fighting? Hmmm. And he said "I love a good fired-up dog." That's what I meant when I said "I enjoy DA".


Actually you said that these dogs were bred to fight and that you enjoy that. So yes i kinda interpreted it as if you enjoyed dog fighting.


----------



## bernadettelevis

BarbaraClark said:


> No actually, they don't.


From what i read in the post you opened there, yes they do...


----------



## BarbaraClark

bernadettelevis said:


> Actually you said that these dogs were bred to fight and that you enjoy that. So yes i kinda interpreted it as if you enjoyed dog fighting.


If that's what I said, it's not what I meant. I worded it wrong, as I have made VERY clear.


----------



## lucky

It is a fact that APBT's can be gentle, loving family pets so I cannot agree that they are born fighters, sorry I really can't. Their only fault is that they will do whatever it takes to please their owners, even if that means getting themselves badly hurt or killed, that is what it comes down to "their willingness to please"
People assume that JRT's are born rat/rabbit hunters, mine isn't, even though both her mum and dad were trained to do so, that is the DIFFERENCE they were TRAINED to hunt she wasn't


----------



## DoglovingSenior

xellil said:


> Oh I love it when someone calls me a dumbass. it means they have no argument.
> 
> sure, I'll quote the whole thing, I left it off because it doesn't make any difference, but in the interest of fairness:
> 
> 
> 
> Promises, promises. yoiu said you were going to leave about 15 pages ago and dang, you're stilll here.


Barbs may not still be here because she is busy on the Pit Bull site - I think that she has repeated it at least twice- on how people on another site said that she liked dog fighting JUST because she enjoys the DA Strut! <LMBO> Kady is in the mix too- an admin telling her that her dog is unproven and it is an Amstaff. THIS is too funny for me. Over and Out!


----------



## xellil

DoglovingSenior said:


> Barbs may not still be here because she is busy on the Pit Bull site - I think that she has repeated it at least twice- on how people on another site said that she liked dog fighting JUST because she enjoys the DA Strut! <LMBO> One reply informed her that "gameness" and DA are 2 different things. Another that her dogs were untested as one was a mix the other an Amstaf. <LOL>


Hah! The expert. She is even embarrassed to repeat exactly what she said on her own site.


----------



## meggels

I don't understand HOW someone would enjoy having a dog that is aggressive to other dogs. That doesn't seem the least bit enjoyable to me. I had a boxer that was slightly reactive and having him out in public settings where other dogs were was not enjoyable. Manageable? Sure. Fun? Uh, no.

I love the attitude my frenchie has that he doesn't give a crap what other dogs do, he's bomb proof. That to me is something to strive for and be PROUD OF. Not a dog that is aggressive. And I don't want your dog aggressive dog being handled by someone who is clearly just looking for an ego boost and possibly getting their jaws on MY dog who is friendly and should be out in public. 

People like CavePaws, I would feel safe having my dog near. People like you who WANT their dogs to be DA? uh No thanks, please stay the hell away from me and my pets.


----------



## BarbaraClark

DoglovingSenior said:


> Barbs may not still be here because she is busy on the Pit Bull site - I think that she has repeated it at least twice- on how people on another site said that she liked dog fighting JUST because she enjoys the DA Strut! <LMBO> One reply informed her that "gameness" and DA are 2 different things. Another that her dogs were untested as one was a mix the other an Amstaf. <LOL>


What're you talking about? I don't have an AmStaff and never said I did.


----------



## xellil

meggels said:


> I don't understand HOW someone would enjoy having a dog that is aggressive to other dogs. That doesn't seem the least bit enjoyable to me.


That's because you are a real human being who doesn't need a tough dog to prove you have big cojones.


----------



## lucky

meggels said:


> I don't understand HOW someone would enjoy having a dog that is aggressive to other dogs. That doesn't seem the least bit enjoyable to me. I had a boxer that was slightly reactive and having him out in public settings where other dogs were was not enjoyable. Manageable? Sure. Fun? Uh, no.
> 
> I love the attitude my frenchie has that he doesn't give a crap what other dogs do, he's bomb proof. That to me is something to strive for and be PROUD OF. Not a dog that is aggressive. And I don't want your dog aggressive dog being handled by someone who is clearly just looking for an ego boost and possibly getting their jaws on MY dog who is friendly and should be out in public.
> 
> People like CavePaws, I would feel safe having my dog near. People like you who WANT their dogs to be DA? uh No thanks, please stay the hell away from me and my pets.


100% agree. People here use their staffordshire bull terriers as "status" dogs and if I see those particular people out over the field I won't take lucky, simply because the owners (just like Barbara) get a kick out of seeing the fear in another dogs eyes. It is not fun to instill fear into others


----------



## meggels

You're right, that's because my cojones are huge to begin with!  


But seriously, I love Murph's attitude to other dogs. They can bark and snarl at him and he doesn't even care. He's just like "oh whatever, what are you so worked up about?" and walks away.


----------



## xellil

lucky said:


> 100% agree. People here use staffordshire bull terriers as "status" dogs and if I see them out over the field I won't take lucky, simply because the owners (just like Barbara) get a kick out of seeing the fear in another dogs eyes. It is not fun to instill fear into others


We have three lovely pit bulls at our dog park. They love other dogs and of course being people lovers have all the owners eating out of their hands. And I am sure they are courageous, strong, etc etc just like all pit bulls should be. 

But of course if you like your dog to want to take on all comers it's stupid to take them out in public. you do that kind of "socialization" at night, in an empty barn.


----------



## lucky

There are some lovely bully type dogs here too, in fact lucky regularly meets up with a staffordshire bull terrier at the beach, I meant that I don't take her to the same places that the irresponsible staff owners go, the ones that encourage their dogs to be aggressive


----------



## Tobi

BarbaraClark said:


> Wow, both the statement you made and the comment you quoted are STUPID. Have you ever owned an APBT? They are BORN dog aggressive. These sites you are going to are not fact - they are the words of extremists.


Is that a fact? or are you trying to blow smoke up peoples asses again, where is your information coming from about them being BORN aggressive? because working at shelters for years, and having owned APBT's i can attest that you are absolutely completely wrong, I've never once seen an 8 week old puppy trying to tear it's littermates apart, I have however seen their demeanor change drastically over the course of 8-10 months, even 16-20 I've seen dogs that have been perfectly fine at a year old, and then they are brought back to the shelter because of DA, and guess what, they are then put down. I've owned an APBT as i said earlier, and until she was stolen from me at just about 2 years old, she had never shown any DA unless it was defensive, and in that case she put her foot down. you're an EXTREMIST in your own right, but for the absolute wrong cause.

DA makes it hard for the average person to see this breed in a positive light, These dogs DON'T want to fight for Christ sake...I think it's ridiculous that you think that, It's sad that people like you think the way you do, please please please go to a shelter, and volunteer your precious time to find DA dogs homes because it's extremely hard to find a 2 year old DA pittie a home vs a non DA animal. I understand that people breeding the hell out of them is what is getting shelters filled, but DA doesn't help at any rate.


----------



## cprcheetah

Why would ANYONE LIKE having a DA dog? I work for a vet and we've now sewn up a 12 year old Am Eskimo 4 TIMES in the last month due to a DA Pittie (who needs a different home as her owners are unable to work with her on her DA issues). This dog has nearly died and the owners have spent about $3,000 now in the past month on their dog. DA is NOT something to mess around with, it is NOT something that is FUN to deal with. It makes me sick to hear of people who are giving Pits a bad name because they think it's 'cool' that they are DA. Seriously what are you thinking? I love Pits, Staffs etc, I think they are an AMAZING breed, would I ever own one? Probably not because I am not the type of owner they need, I don't have the correct 'leadership' skills so to speak. But I do think they are amazing dogs....when in the right hands. Have seen more than a handful in the wrong hands who can be very very dangerous.


----------



## DoglovingSenior

Hey Barbs! I edited my post after looking at the other site once more, I misstated a fact. for that I openly apologize!!! It was Kady who was being told about the Amstaf, not you. But, are your dogs proven yet?

The other comments that you have made about the Pit bull site do not seem to be correct. I think that I will join since I am an APBT owner & a member of another APBT forum, & post the true quote that you made over here & let y'all duke it out?! <LMBO>


----------



## Jimm

cprcheetah- I think the case you are explaining is not the fault of the dog or DA but owners too stupid to keep dogs separate or contained.

Barbara owns some mutt,not an apbt by any stretch of the imagination.


----------



## cprcheetah

Jimm said:


> cprcheetah- I think the case you are explaining is not the fault of the dog or DA but owners too stupid to keep dogs separate or contained.


Actually they tried keeping the dog contained, and she literally busted out of a crate, and jumped a baby gate to get to the other dog. This dog has attacked 2 other dogs in addition to the Eskimo.


----------



## xellil

DoglovingSenior said:


> Hey Barbs! I edited my post after looking at the other site once more, I misstated a fact. for that I openly apologize!!! It was Kady who was being told about the Amstaf, not you. But, are your dogs proven yet?
> 
> The other comments that you have made about the Pit bull site do not seem to be correct. I think that I will join since I am an APBT owner & a member of another APBT forum, & post the true quote that you made over here & let y'all duke it out?! <LMBO>


Oh please do! I have to get serious about watching football or i would consider it myself.


----------



## BarbaraClark

DoglovingSenior said:


> Hey Barbs!  I edited my post after looking at the other site once more, I misstated a fact. for that I openly apologize!!! It was Kady who was being told about the Amstaf, not you. But, are your dogs proven yet?
> 
> The other comments that you have made about the Pit bull site do not seem to be correct. I think that I will join since I am an APBT owner & a member of another APBT forum, & post the true quote that you made over here & let y'all duke it out?! <LMBO>


You can go ahead, but the post will be scrapped. You're not allowed to post things from other forums.


----------



## Jimm

A baby gate? You've got to be joking.
People need to learn what a decent kennel or chain set-up is.


----------



## xellil

BarbaraClark said:


> You can go ahead, but the post will be scrapped. You're not allowed to post things from other forums.


Which is why you can make up stuff you didn't say and go over there and whine how you are getting attacked for it.


----------



## magicre

xellil said:


> Oh please do! I have to get serious about watching football or i would consider it myself.


gosh, how are you dealing with life and no peyton


----------



## xellil

Jimm said:


> A baby gate? You've got to be joking.
> People need to learn what a decent kennel or chain set-up is.


I have to agree - I have a baby gate for my 10 pound dachshund and she gets through it regularly.


----------



## cprcheetah

xellil said:


> I have to agree - I have a baby gate for my 10 pound dachshund and she gets through it regularly.


Yep, which is why they finally rehomed the dog as they were not equipped to deal with a DA dog. They tried putting her in a crate, in a locked bedroom, dog got OUT of both.


----------



## xellil

magicre said:


> gosh, how are you dealing with life and no peyton


Not very well, frankly.


----------



## Tobi

> I honestly love that the pit bull is dog aggressive sometimes...I really do.


Read more: Opinions on DA? - Page 2

For what reasons? does it improve your life somehow?

Do you have another dog? Do you crate, and rotate? 

Wait until you slip that one time, and your leashe goes 20mph down the street after your dog, and it's ripping apart a neighbor dog, wait until you're sued for something like that, wait until you're animal redirects to the animals owner that is trying to get the dog off of their dog, and the animals is put to sleep for being seemingly HA. just wait. Then... we'll see if you're tune has changed at all.


----------



## bernadettelevis

That's what she just wrote on PBC 

I honestly love that the pit bull is dog aggressive sometimes...I really do.

Read more: Opinions on DA? - Page 2


----------



## BarbaraClark

Tobi said:


> Read more: Opinions on DA? - Page 2
> 
> For what reasons? does it improve your life somehow?
> 
> Do you have another dog? Do you crate, and rotate?
> 
> Wait until you slip that one time, and your leashe goes 20mph down the street after your dog, and it's ripping apart a neighbor dog, wait until you're sued for something like that, wait until you're animal redirects to the animals owner that is trying to get the dog off of their dog, and the animals is put to sleep for being seemingly HA. just wait. Then... we'll see if you're tune has changed at all.


I won't. Because I'm a responsible dog owner and I don't put my dog in the position where any of these scenarios are possible.


----------



## xellil

bernadettelevis said:


> That's what she just wrote on PBC
> 
> I honestly love that the pit bull is dog aggressive sometimes...I really do.
> 
> Read more: Opinions on DA? - Page 2


And the fellow that says he loves it in secret.

Likeminded people - no one is going to stop them from thinking that way because there is something wrong with them. But I truly hope we don't ever accept that attitude here. It's disgusting. Just reading that page made me want to go take a shower.


----------



## xellil

BarbaraClark said:


> I won't. Because I'm a responsible dog owner and I don't put my dog in the position where any of these scenarios are possible.


That's what they all say. And after it happens, you'll say you dont' have an aggressive dog, never saw that coming - it can't be YOUR dog's fault.


----------



## BarbaraClark

xellil said:


> That's what they all say. And after it happens, you'll say you dont' have an aggressive dog, never saw that coming - it can't be YOUR dog's fault.


Uhm, no. I know my dog might be dog aggressive one day, and knowing that, I take every precaution.


----------



## bernadettelevis

BarbaraClark said:


> I won't. Because I'm a responsible dog owner and I don't put my dog in the position where any of these scenarios are possible.


So why exactly do you love DA?? Could you pleas explain to me why?? I just don't get it....


----------



## xellil

bernadettelevis said:


> So why exactly do you love DA?? Could you pleas explain to me why?? I just don't get it....


it's very simple. She wants to feel like a bigger man. Because of her lack of character, courage, and strength, she gets a dog that has ALL those characteristics.

and then to prove it, the dog also has to want to fight. To make it clear that she is very manly.


----------



## BarbaraClark

bernadettelevis said:


> So why exactly do you love DA?? Could you pleas explain to me why?? I just don't get it....


If you've never held a game dog, you couldn't understand.


----------



## lucky

That page is truly awful. I wonder how many of them would actually encourage their dogs to harm others, most of them would no doubt! 

Barbara, you are so far from being a responsible dog owner and you can't even see it. Why on earth would you say that you love that the pitbull is sometimes dog aggressive?? Seriously that is one mental attitude to have, you should be ashamed


----------



## Tobi

BarbaraClark said:


> I won't. Because I'm a responsible dog owner and I don't put my dog in the position where any of these scenarios are possible.


So you're saying that you don't take your dog out of the confines of your home? EVER? because the moment that your DA dog leaves your home, you're entering him into that scenario. I've met responsible dog owners, and responsible dog owners are very knowledgeable about their breed, they don't need knowledge from people on another forum to validate what they are trying to say. From what I've seen in all of your posts, you ma'am... do not meet this criteria.


----------



## bernadettelevis

yeah you're right. I just wanted to hear her justification for it. But she wrote on PBC pretty much what you just wrote in other words:

And someone I know put it the best way I could describe it: "They have never held the leash of a real game-bred APBT firing off at another dog, and feel the energy run up the leash and into them. I would never fight a dog, even if it was legal, but the energy of a hot little APBT is awesome."

Read more: Opinions on DA? - Page 2


----------



## xellil

bernadettelevis said:


> yeah you're right. I just wanted to hear her justification for it. But she wrote on PBC pretty much what you just wrote in other words:
> 
> And someone I know put it the best way I could describe it: "They have never held the leash of a real game-bred APBT firing off at another dog, and feel the energy run up the leash and into them. I would never fight a dog, even if it was legal, but the energy of a hot little APBT is awesome."
> 
> Read more: Opinions on DA? - Page 2


Even though I know it to be true, to see it written really kind of makes me want to cry. for the dogs.


----------



## Tobi

BarbaraClark said:


> If you've never held a game dog, you couldn't understand.


I've dealt with a game dog, i've also used breaksticks more than i would ever have liked to. please explain to me somebody who is familiar with them why you love this trait so much.


----------



## xellil

BarbaraClark said:


> If you've never held a game dog, you couldn't understand.


We couldn't understand if we did. Because we are not like you. You are the epitomy of all that is wrong with pit bulls owners.


----------



## lucky

BarbaraClark said:


> Uhm, no. I know my dog might be dog aggressive one day, and knowing that, I take every precaution.


Even though you love the fact they can sometimes be dog aggressive, are you sure you don't encourage it, I'd say you encourage it then brag about it to your equally braindead DA lovers


----------



## bernadettelevis

BarbaraClark said:


> If you've never held a game dog, you couldn't understand.


No not an apbt but i grew up with a DA German Shepherd. Best dog with kids but awful when meeting other dogs. and nobody of us felt "the energy run up the leash"..... and nobody of us wanted to feel the negative energy. Because that's what it is "nevagtive", do you really think a DA dog loves meeting other dogs he wants to fight with????
The only time our GSD wasn't happy was when we met another dog.....but yeah definition of happy and "love" varies...


----------



## RachelsaurusRexU

"And someone I know put it the best way I could describe it: "They have never held the leash of a real game-bred APBT firing off at another dog, and feel the energy run up the leash and into them. I would never fight a dog, even if it was legal, but the energy of a hot little APBT is awesome."

Yeah, this made me want to vomit. Like I said before, these people need tough dogs to make up for their own shortcomings.


----------



## bernadettelevis

She wrote that in another post on PBC which confrims what i think about her knowledge of dogs in general. It's always the breed not the person holding the leash of course.......I hate it when people blame the breed on mistakes they made in training them..

I've been around doxie's all my life, and I've only ever come across one that didn't bolt when off leash. Good luck.

Read more: I need some help on obedience with a Doxie-pin


----------



## xellil

bernadettelevis said:


> She wrote that in another post on PBC which confrims what i think about her knowledge of dogs in general. It's always the breed not the person holding the leash of course.......I hate it when people blame the breed on mistakes they made in training them..
> 
> I've been around doxie's all my life, and I've only ever come across one that didn't bolt when off leash. Good luck.
> 
> Read more: I need some help on obedience with a Doxie-pin


Now THERE'S a dog trainer extraordinaire! Dang dogs, they just have a mind of their own. Especially those unruly doxies.


----------



## BarbaraClark

Sooo, you're what, stalking me now?


----------



## xellil

BarbaraClark said:


> Sooo, you're what, stalking me now?


yes, yes we know. Your dog can beat up our dogs. There, you feel better?


----------



## Hadley

BarbaraClark said:


> I'm not answering you, because you seem to think that the only people who can have knowledge about anything are people that have attended seminars or personally talked to professionals about it.


Is that such a bad thing? What is wrong with speaking to a professional, someone who has actually studied dog aggression, about the subject? It is a different perspective, you might learn something new.


----------



## BarbaraClark

Xellil, you have 13 doxies?


----------



## lucky

BarbaraClark said:


> Sooo, you're what, stalking me now?


Well, you were supposed to be leaving about 10 pages ago


----------



## Tobi

BarbaraClark said:


> Sooo, you're what, stalking me now?


I've been a member of other forums for quite some time... I've lurked on pbc for years, when you use the same screen name it's not too hard to put two and two together... 
I've asked multiple questions directed to you, but it seems that you will not answer my questions... maybe you can't answer to people that have experience with the breed, and dog aggression first hand. you seem to be quite the "follower" on pbc, taking information blindly, and saying " i completely agree"... gotta love the human race.


----------



## Scarlett_O'

Tobi said:


> I've been a member of other forums for quite some time... I've lurked on pbc for years, when you use the same screen name it's not too hard to put two and two together...
> I've asked multiple questions directed to you, but it seems that you will not answer my questions... maybe you can't answer to people that have experience with the breed, and dog aggression first hand. you seem to be quite the "follower" on pbc, taking information blindly, and saying " i completely agree"... gotta love the human race.


David do you have that pig farmer lined up yet?? Or did we decide to keep "it" in our own freezers??? I cant remember!!:wink: :tongue:


----------



## Hadley

Tobi said:


> I've been a member of other forums for quite some time... I've lurked on pbc for years, when you use the same screen name it's not too hard to put two and two together...
> I've asked multiple questions directed to you, but it seems that you will not answer my questions... maybe you can't answer to people that have experience with the breed, and dog aggression first hand. you seem to be quite the "follower" on pbc, taking information blindly, and saying " i completely agree"... gotta love the human race.


I can't hit the "like" button hard enough. Agree with everything you said.


----------



## Tobi

Scarlett_O' said:


> David do you have that pig farmer lined up yet?? Or did we decide to keep "it" in our own freezers??? I cant remember!!:wink: :tongue:


:rofl: :rofl:

Maybe i should become a pig farmer when we move back to washington!!! lol


----------



## DoglovingSenior

BarbaraClark said:


> You can go ahead, but the post will be scrapped. You're not allowed to post things from other forums.


My, my, don't you want me to post your EXACT quote???


----------



## Scarlett_O'

Tobi said:


> :rofl: :rofl:
> 
> Maybe i should become a pig farmer when we move back to washington!!! lol


OHHHHH....Now THAT sounds like a good plan!!! For those that are too gamey(for those of us with picky babes) we can then use it for the pigs!:tongue: (Although I think it was stated a while back that that is what caused T. in pigs!LOL)


----------



## Tobi

DoglovingSenior said:


> My, my, don't you want me to post your EXACT quote???


Cynthia has posted in that thread, she will just delete your post, and infract you for Xposting anything.


----------



## Celt

Okay, I didn't want to add this because I'm probably going to be blasted but I really can't bite my tongue. My father was friends with a fighting dog breeder. This is NOT the same as a "pit" breeder (not breeders of pitbull breeders, mind you), who most considered as disugusting as puppy millers. True fighting dogs are not truely DA. These dogs don't go after any dog they can. To quote, "what the hades(my word) use is a dog you have to keep chained and muzzled". Their dogs are trained to fight. You can watch them running around playing and wrestling with each other out in their yards. But then you take them to the ring, and all of a sudden there's a change. The dog's head comes up, tail arching, ears forward, walking on "tiptoes". The closer they get to the ring the more "up" they get. Once in the ring, you have DA on overload. But these guys don't fight dogs to the death, in fact as soon as one "submits" the "winner" is called off. The dogs get patched up and medicated. Like many other breeders, they do cull "bad" pups. Away from the ring, these dogs don't go after other dogs. These dogs are trained to fight, just as "hounds" are train to hunt boar, bear, etc. Of course, this was many years ago, as my dad was a young man at the time. Like I said I think it was bad "trainers" who came up with this "needing to be DA" idea. 
Before I get blasted and attacked, I don't like, respect, or agree with fighting dogs. In fact, to me it's a horrible practice, no better than someone involved in a "hate crime". I just wanted to put down what I was taught about why "pit" breeders were scum.


I really hope no one hates me for this.


----------



## xellil

The honorable thing to do would be for Barbara to say it again exactly as she said it here, instead of trying to get support for something she didn't say. Or give a link back here to her post. Or saying it was taken out of context. If you make such an inflammatory statement, the least you can do is stand behind it.

Otherwise, it just seems like you need a big bad dog to fight your battles for you. Oh wait....


----------



## Muttkip

On behalf of PBC, I can say that we've ripped Barbra a new one or two and only has been a member for a short time, since she's coming off as a know it all, I've only seen her on the forum for MAYBE a week in the almost two or three years I've been. She still has A LOT to learn...so please ignore her.


----------



## xellil

Celt said:


> Okay, I didn't want to add this because I'm probably going to be blasted but I really can't bite my tongue. My father was friends with a fighting dog breeder. This is NOT the same as a "pit" breeder (not breeders of pitbull breeders, mind you), who most considered as disugusting as puppy millers. True fighting dogs are not truely DA. These dogs don't go after any dog they can. To quote, "what the hades(my word) use is a dog you have to keep chained and muzzled". Their dogs are trained to fight. You can watch them running around playing and wrestling with each other out in their yards. But then you take them to the ring, and all of a sudden there's a change. The dog's head comes up, tail arching, ears forward, walking on "tiptoes". The closer they get to the ring the more "up" they get. Once in the ring, you have DA on overload. But these guys don't fight dogs to the death, in fact as soon as one "submits" the "winner" is called off. The dogs get patched up and medicated. Like many other breeders, they do cull "bad" pups. Away from the ring, these dogs don't go after other dogs. These dogs are trained to fight, just as "hounds" are train to hunt boar, bear, etc. Of course, this was many years ago, as my dad was a young man at the time. Like I said I think it was bad "trainers" who came up with this "needing to be DA" idea.
> Before I get blasted and attacked, I don't like, respect, or agree with fighting dogs. In fact, to me it's a horrible practice, no better than someone involved in a "hate crime". I just wanted to put down what I was taught about why "pit" breeders were scum.


i don't think that happens any more. Now that dogfighting is a felony, there is no reason to be humane.


----------



## Jimm

Thats true.Barbaras dog has a higher IQ than she does and it isn't even a smart dog.


----------



## Tobi

Muttkip said:


> On behalf of PBC, I can say that we've ripped Barbra a new one or two and only has been a member for a short time, since she's coming off as a know it all, I've only seen her on the forum for MAYBE a week in the almost two or three years I've been. She still has A LOT to learn...so please ignore her.


She needs a shorter leashe :lol:


----------



## DoglovingSenior

You are SO correct. I know an APBT who learned early that if he knocked the roof of a travel crate with his head, he could open the door. The heavy metal ones could not keep him in either, a fence-made to be jumped or climbed. Kennels, could also be broken out of or climbed. Finally had to have special a $500 ( wonder what it would cost now?) crates made for him. He behaved for me (usually) when his owner returned he ran back to the crate but couldn't lock the door like he wished he could. <LOL> Was ALWAYS a gentleman for his owner.
Once, he broke out of a crate from the time I put him in it, walked in the door of the bedroom(the crate was beside the door) said OMG and turned around, there he was wagging his tail.<lol> I laugh now but this was No Joke!


----------



## bernadettelevis

oh man.....

I enjoy the dog aggression because I just...it's hard to explain. I've only ever owned one game dog, once. He was severely DA. It was a pain in the butt sometimes, but I loved when I would walk him, and he would turn on to another dog. He got this whole demeanor about him that he just knew he was better than any other dog, he was invincible. I liked feeling him be so proud of himself, it made me proud to be his owner. Does that make sense?

Read more: Opinions on DA?


My dog also knows that he's better than any other dog (at least to me ) and doesn't have to use any aggression to achieve that. What does "better" mean for you? Stronger? More aggressive? Dominant?


----------



## xellil

DoglovingSenior said:


> You are SO correct. I know an APBT who learned early that if he knocked the roof of a travel crate with his head, he could open the door. The heavy metal ones could not keep him in either, a fence-made to be jumped or climbed. Kennels, could also be broken out of or climbed. Finally had to have special a $500 ( wonder what it would cost now?) crates made for him. He behaved for me (usually) when his owner returned he ran back to the crate but couldn't lock the door like he wished he could. <LOL> Was ALWAYS a gentleman for his owner.
> Once, he broke out of a crate from the time I put him in it, walked in the door of the bedroom(the crate was beside the door) said OMG and turned around, there he was wagging his tail.<lol> I laugh now but this was No Joke!


I'm afraid that's what happens to alot of aggressive dogs. They end up in a fight and get to spend their lives in a cage.

We sued the owners of a Rottweiler who busted out of his yard and attacked our dog as my husband walked him on a public street, to the tune of $900. They weren't rich and I'm sure it hurt their budget.

They actually moved trying to avoid us. They did not want to pay. They used every excuse in the book - somehow it was our dogs fault and their dog was a pussycat (we had a 14 year old dog who never wanted to fight anyone and he was on a leash). 

But, i got my teeth into it, tracked them down, and they eventually paid up.


----------



## xellil

bernadettelevis said:


> oh man.....she's really retarded
> 
> I enjoy the dog aggression because I just...it's hard to explain. I've only ever owned one game dog, once. He was severely DA. It was a pain in the butt sometimes, but I loved when I would walk him, and he would turn on to another dog. He got this whole demeanor about him that he just knew he was better than any other dog, he was invincible. I liked feeling him be so proud of himself, it made me proud to be his owner. Does that make sense?
> 
> Read more: Opinions on DA?
> 
> 
> My dog also knows that he's better than any other dog (at least to me ) and doesn't have to use any aggression to achieve that. What does "better" mean for you? Stronger? More aggressive? Dominant?


I don't even know what to say to that. Except i feel sorry for her neighbors. I don't know why people can't see it's their OWN weaknesses that cause those feelings.


----------



## Hadley

bernadettelevis said:


> oh man.....she's really retarded
> 
> I enjoy the dog aggression because I just...it's hard to explain. I've only ever owned one game dog, once. He was severely DA. It was a pain in the butt sometimes, but I loved when I would walk him, and he would turn on to another dog. He got this whole demeanor about him that he just knew he was better than any other dog, he was invincible. I liked feeling him be so proud of himself, it made me proud to be his owner. Does that make sense?
> 
> Read more: Opinions on DA?


She thinks its amazing to watch a DA dog flare up at the sight of another dog? Well I think it's amazing to watch a DA dog (a truly DA dog at that) see another dog and despite everything her brain is telling her, ignore that dog, that almost painful distraction, look up at me and give ME her all. Now THAT is epic.


----------



## DaneMama

Ya know???

I was outside playing, spending time with my dogs, enjoying REAL life today. The weather is awesome, its gorgeous outside. 

Came in for lunch and opened DFC and saw this thread has gotten to 45 freaking pages. I haven't been on DFC much this past week because I was uber busy. Well, I had to back track to when this thread became active again and only got to page 28 before I got irritated and bored with this crap. 

I suggest you should go spend some quality time with the dogs you have with you instead of bickering on the internet any longer. 

THREAD CLOSED

ETA: Sorry to anyone who was in the middle of writing a post on here and got cut off. It just had to be done


----------



## CorgiPaws

Ho. Lee. Crap. 
I was out of town all week enjoying an amazing vacation with hubby, and thought when I got back I'd catch up on a little DFC> 
Threats, blatant support of dog fighting? Really folks, really?

DA is part of the breed- like it or not and I can accept that, but to "love" DA, and praise your dog for it??? I can't comment on that without breaking forum rules. 
Also, PLEASE READ THE FORUM RULES WHEN YOU JOIN A FORUM> I've never had to delete so much name calling and inappropriate language in any other thread as I did this one. There are standards here on DFC unlike some other forums *cough*PBC*cough* and it's best you learn what they are before posting. 
This thread does absolutely nothing productive and only brings down the quality and integrity of DFC. For that reason:

Thread freaking closed.

ETA: OOPS, I see Natalie already did that while I was still catching up, my bad!!! Sometimes I wish mods got a warning before posting to a closed thread. lol.

*ETA2: To the people who think that people only get warnings or infractions if they aren't part of the "in" crowd: I'm not sure who/what the in crowd here even is.... but that aside, all members are held to the same set of rules, period. No insulting members, no name calling, no inappropriate language, no quoting other sites without reference.... it's pretty basic. I think this thread should have been closed earlier, yes... but mods have lives too and we can't sit on DFC all freaking day and play babysitter. In case you didn't notice, Bill is a busy man, and Natalie and I have 5+ dogs each to care for, plus significant others, families, friends, and careers. We are not paid to moderate DFC but we do the best we can in our free time. Give us a break, will you? If a thread really NEEDS to be shut down, report a post, but don't sit and moan that we aren't here 24/7 to clean up your mess. *


----------

