# Sepsis because of Raw?



## doxieluv (Aug 8, 2011)

Yesterday at 2 in the morning I rushed my dog Colby into the emergency vet. He wouldn't move, couldn't even hold his head up. He'd rapidly lost weight within hours and he was severely dehydrated. The vet told me sepsis set in and he'd slipped into a coma. He was only looking at about a 10% chance of making it in the condition he was in. There was no real alternative but to put him to sleep. He would've been 4 on the first of next month. I can't even go more than an hour or so without crying and it's killing me even more to know that it might've been something I did. 

After talking to the emergency vet and one of the vets at my usual facility they think it was the raw food. My dogs have had an ongoing issue with fluctuating weight loss and the emergency vet believes he may have had liver damage close to the time it started to occur, around him being a year old. The culmination of unknown liver damage and raw food is what the emergency vet thought might've done it. He's had blood work done from his previous vet that said his levels were high but nothing to worry about. Not one vet I saw, over 5, from different facilities could tell me why they were fluctuating with weight. I decided to transition to raw and they still had the occasional problem but nothing like on kibble and they were recovering much faster. I just thought it was something I was going to have to live with because no vet seemed worried about it. The last post I made on here was about him having blood in the stool that cleared up. He'd seen the regular vet since then because he was also straining to pee. They xrayed him and it came up normal. Did a fecal test. Also normal. He was active and no longer experiencing any further problems until yesterday. 

I took Rayne in to see the regular vet today to get her checked out. She's experiencing weight loss too, down about 5 pounds. From the regular exam the vet says nothing is wrong. He wonders if she's getting proper nutrition on raw. After hearing nothing is wrong so many times and having just had to put my boy to sleep, I told them I wanted them to do more. They did blood work, results will be in tomorrow. Has anyone heard of a dog getting sepsis from raw? I still have another dog to think about and I honestly don't know what I should do anymore. 

Their diet was basically: 
Supplement: Fish oil/Vitamin E, Kelp Powder
Staple: Chicken (backs, neck, thighs, legs, whole quarters), Beef (heart, tripe, liver, kidney), Duck necks
Rotational: Canned sardines/salmon (in water), Pork (chunks, necks), Turkey (chunks, ground, necks, organs), other protein source (beef, turkey, rabbit, venison, mutton, buffalo, ostrich
Occasionally fed: baby carrots, peas, green beans

meals consisted of mostly poultry for bones (chicken backs, necks, legs, thighs, entire quarters and duck necks.) beef heart as a main staple for muscle meat to help keep their weight up with other boneless sources rotated in. beef, turkey, tripe and occasionally pork. occasional ground mixes were rotated in as well for more protein sources (beef, turkey, rabbit, venison, mutton, buffalo, ostrich). Ground mixes were either pure meat, 80-10-10 or 60-20(tripe)-10-10. They got a whole raw egg with kelp, along with canned sardines (sometimes salmon) in water once to twice a week or with fish oil/vitamin e serum if i didn't have canned fish. And beef or chicken liver/kidney once or twice a week.


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## Rvent (Apr 15, 2012)

I don't know much about sepsis and feeding raw.

I just wanted to say how very sorry I am for the loss of your boy, my thoughts are with you.


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## naturalfeddogs (Jan 6, 2011)

First, I'm sorry about this. That's awful.

Second, I really don't know much about sepsis at all, but vets are quick to blame a raw diet on anything. The same thing may have happened feeding something like Hills from their office, and then diet would never have come up. Maybe someone who knows more about it will chime in.


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## Nana52 (Apr 28, 2012)

I don't know anything about sepsis either, but I just want to say I'm so very sorry for your loss.


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## woganvonderweidenstrasse (Nov 22, 2012)

o god, I'm so sorry to hear this. Did they explain to you how/in what way did the raw cause it?


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## monster'sdad (Jul 29, 2012)

naturalfeddogs said:


> First, I'm sorry about this. That's awful.
> 
> Second, I really don't know much about sepsis at all, but vets are quick to blame a raw diet on anything. The same thing may have happened feeding something like Hills from their office, and then diet would never have come up. Maybe someone who knows more about it will chime in.


Some raw feeders never miss the chance to waive the Vet/Hills/Purina conspiracy theory flag. Shameful.


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## wolfsnaps88 (Jan 2, 2012)

Sdly I don't think you can prove or dismiss raw as the culprit. From googling sepsis, I see it can be caused from a multitude of things including fungi, viruses and bacteria. If this is beginning to happen to the new dog, I would be looking at environmental factors. I mean, I find it very odd if this was happeneing to the second dog caused by raw. If raw did cause this, what are the odds of it happening twice. There are thousands of raw feeders out there and this is the first I have heard of this. I'm not discounting it, but two dogs from the same household? Just weird. Please keep us updated on Rayne and I hope she is perfectly healthy. So sorry to hear about your dachshund. Colby was a cutie pie and this just sucks


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## Nana52 (Apr 28, 2012)

monster'sdad said:


> Some raw feeders never miss the chance to waive the Vet/Hills/Purina conspiracy theory flag. Shameful.


I'm sure you meant to offer your condolences. Or maybe not. This person has just lost their beloved pet. For the love of god, don't start another freaking raw/kibble "debate." THAT would be shameful!


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## bett (Mar 15, 2012)

first i am so sorry for the loss of your pet.
can it be a bone punctured his intestine or stomach, ? thus allowing the sepsis to occur. my husband had a perforated ulcer and 7 pockets of sepsis, many yrs ago due to motrin abuse (yup).
that's the only reason i am asking this sensitive question at this time. i'm gonna search around my computer and see if it's possible.
be back as soon as i can.

again, so very sorry.


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## naturalfeddogs (Jan 6, 2011)

Nana52 said:


> I'm sure you meant to offer your condolences. Or maybe not. This person has just lost their beloved pet. For the love of god, don't start another freaking raw/kibble "debate." THAT would be shameful!


And disrespectful.


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## bett (Mar 15, 2012)

i googled around fast, as it's hard to tell what the culprit is but i agree that many if not most vets would suspect, once you say you feed raw. they also mention possible pancreatitis as leading to sepsis. it just seems so strange to me that it happened so fast. is it possible he picked up a dead bird and ingested it?
it's very hard, believe it or not, for a dog to get salmonella, often blamed on raw, so i am having hard time rapping my head around the determination that it was feeding raw . are the other dogs exhibiting anything? higher liver levels (which is an indication but you said your dogs levels' werent soooo high. ) my guy has had liver issue from the toxic diamond food but we're talking 4x too high. 

again, i am so sorry for the sudden loss of your beloved pet.
please keep us informed, if you can.


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## Khan (Jan 17, 2010)

Just wanted to let you know we are thinking of you. No words seem to be enough. This is just a tragic event, and that's what makes it even harder. 
We are logical creatures, and we want to somehow use our brain while dealing with our heartbreak. Sometimes however, those answers will never be clear. You can "what if" this situation all you want; but in the end you may never really know. Losing one of our furkids is hard. You are both in our thoughts and prayers.


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## kathylcsw (Jul 31, 2011)

I am so sorry for your loss! I lost a dog to kidney failure in 2011 just months shy of turning 4 years old. For the record she was fed Purina kibble. It is never easy to lose a pet but to lose one so young is harder than anything. You will be in my thoughts.

As to monstersdad why don't you stay out of the raw feeding section?? No one here respects, wants, or listens to your opinion. How anyone could be so rude and disrespectful just to push an agenda is beyond me. Please go away. You wore out your welcome with raw feeders a long time ago and your comment now speaks volumes as to what kind of person you are.


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## Sheltielover25 (Jan 18, 2011)

I also am very sorry for your loss.

It sounds to me like the vets aren't sure what happened and are clinging to any abnormality they see which to them is feeding a species-appropriate diet. I wouldn't put much faith in it, based on what I'm reading, it is going to be hard to trace any blame back to diet.


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## BearMurphy (Feb 29, 2012)

First of all, i'm sorry for your loss. A sudden death is hard to handle and your dog having previously undiagnosed health issues that may be impacting your other dog must be a lot to take in right now.

I would say that if your dog had an undiagnosed weight issue that was probably caused by liver issues, i doubt that raw was THE cause of death especially if the weight/liver issue existed prior to feeding it. From the quick research I just did it sounds like pre-existing liver issue made your dog more susceptible to septicemia OR liver issues could have been caused by a viral/bacterial infection.

Please post your lab results for Rayne. Make sure they are testing for viral/bacterial diseases too. You need to get to the bottom of the liver issue and not let the Raw issue weigh on your mind right now. It's possible your other dog could have passed eating kibble if the liver wasn't functioning properly. 

A few questions.....What did you feed before you switched to raw? Is there anything in your yard or where you hike that your dogs could have gotten into? How did you obtain your dogs? (rescue, puppy mill, good breeder..not judging this just think overall genetic health could play a role in this too). Hopefully, someone with more medical knowledge will see your answers and lab work and offer you some ideas that your vet could look into more. If your vet can't diagnose Rayne's weight loss condition I would get a second opinion.


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## GoingPostal (Sep 5, 2011)

I'm so sorry for your loss, it sounds to me like the vets are just guessing, I'm not sure I would put much faith in that. Was a necropsy done by chance?


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## Herzo (Feb 5, 2011)

I'm so sorry, this must be a bad time to many of these deaths lately. I hope your other pup will be ok, any thought in that it was Cody rubbing off on your new pup?

I too think it's strange your having the same issue with him. Your meal plan looks good to me. Healing vibe sent your way.


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## Herzo (Feb 5, 2011)

monster'sdad said:


> Some raw feeders never miss the chance to waive the Vet/Hills/Purina conspiracy theory flag. Shameful.


MD what does this even mean? Did you even read her post????? Sorry I'm in a bad mood today and someone just putting something to cause a fight is not on my agenda.

She said........" The same thing may have happened feeding something like Hills from their office, and then diet would never have come up"........ There that has nothing to do with a conspiracy theory.

You post to quickly before you read sometimes.


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## InkedMarie (Sep 9, 2011)

I cannot answer your questions But wanted to say how very sorry I am for your loss.


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## paw4x3 (Dec 2, 2012)

So sorry to hear about your loss of Colby. I went online to get information about sepsis and found this website: Septicemia and Bacteremia in Dogs | petMD

There is a mention of liver damage making a dog susceptible to sepsis, but because of the quick decline of Colby, it sounds like he had an unrecognized infection somewhere and it was very aggressive. Anyway, I hope this helps you make some sense of his loss.

Pat


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## Sheltielover25 (Jan 18, 2011)

I was just providing captioning for a nutrition class and they discussed how the professor's sister kept losing weight and having issues and it turned out she had malabsorption issues. You might look into this as it sounded similar to the symptoms you listed:
Her sister had a vitamin B-12 deficiency. If they had caught it early enough, she would have been fine. But professor said because of lack of insurance, she didn't get the proper tests, and now two years later will forever be on a feeding tube and has no short-term memory.


https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct...X8j1Z889Xatp1J3ag&sig2=v7YLwzFQ2ghtgFOTQGs-rQ


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## Noodlesmadison (Sep 18, 2011)

I am not good with the medical stuff - but I am so heartbroken for you. I'm sorry


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## doxieluv (Aug 8, 2011)

I want to thank everyone that's offered their condolences. It's been a rough couple of days. Colby was my shadow, he wouldn't do anything more than a foot away from me without running back to my side so I know he couldn't have gotten into anything prior. It's very likely that he had some sort of malabsorption issue like sheltielover posted. The emergency vet said something about it looking like he hadn't absorbed the nutrients from his food in the last few days of him being alive. But a lot of what she said was kind of a blur after she gave him a 10% chance of making it. Luckily my mom was there and she handled everything for me afterwards so I'm not really sure about the rest. 

And sorry, I hope my pictures didn't confuse anyone, I've had Rayne since she was 8wks (my avvie) but she'll be 4 years old in July. I got Colby at 13wks and he was just 4 months older than her so they've spent the majority of their lives together. Prior to being on Raw they were both on Innova puppy food, before P&G bought it, and did well on it. But after P&G bought it the store stopped carrying it and we tried a few other brands of kibble. It was around that time the weight issues started. I tried a TSC brand called 4health. They did well on it for a while but then they both experienced a significant drop in weight after almost four months on it. Colby went from 10lbs to 6 and Rayne from 15.5-10. I don't think the food was contaminated though because I was sharing the bag with my mother's yorkie and he was fine and continues to eat it. Every time I mentioned it to previous vets that Colby was underweight they either didn't seem concerned or were actually happy because it would be less likely of him having spinal issues. Colby was the reason I switched vets so often because no one could help me. After switching to Raw I bumped up how much I was feeding them from 2% to around 4% of their body weight because his weight could drop so easily and he always seemed hungry even if he just ate. Everyone just attributed it to him being a greedy dachshund but now I don't even know. 

Rayne is currently on a mix of Wellness kibble and cooked ground beef. I'm weighing her every day, once in the morning and once in the pm. She's currently at 10.5lbs and slowly gaining her weight back. From what I can tell she's not having any noticeable negative symptoms from switching to kibble from Raw other than her canines have almost instantly become caked with tartar. I guess I'll have to go out and replace that doggy toothbrush I thew away years ago. At this point I don't really know what I'm going to feed her in the long term I'm just taking things a day at a time and hoping for the best.


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## barneysmom2510 (Oct 12, 2011)

I am so sorry. I do agree with others it would seem strange to me that your other dog is having he same issue and raw would be the cause. That said in think you should go with whatever diet makes you comfortable right now. H Vets re very quick to blame raw for everything my vet knows I feed raw and knows i don't vaccinate but they are good about leaving the subject alone. I hope everything goes well with your other dog.


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## naturalfeddogs (Jan 6, 2011)

It does sound like there was some underlying issue no one knew about if the nutrients weren't being absorbed. If thats the case, then regardless of raw or kibble fed I would think it would have been the same. No nutrient absorbtion is no nutrient absorbtion either way. Even if kibble had been fed, it seems like it wold have been the same. There are nutrients to be absorbed either way, if that makes any sense. 

Again, I'm sorry for your loss.


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## woganvonderweidenstrasse (Nov 22, 2012)

Are your puppies related in any way? Like perhaps have the same mother/father or grandmother/grandfather or any common ancestor in say the previous 4 generations? It could be that genetics play a role in this and that a bad/weak gene was passed on from a certain dog? It's just odd that they are both showing similar symptoms. Just something to think about.


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## BearMurphy (Feb 29, 2012)

If there is a malabsorption issue, a specific diet and supplements/medication will be critical to resolving the issue, so I hope your vet can address the underlying health issue if there is one with Rayne. Once you have some answers you might want to feed a RMB instead of a normal meal at least once a week for the dental benefits since doxie's have notoriously bad dental health.


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## Sheltielover25 (Jan 18, 2011)

woganvonderweidenstrasse said:


> Are your puppies related in any way? Like perhaps have the same mother/father or grandmother/grandfather or any common ancestor in say the previous 4 generations? It could be that genetics play a role in this and that a bad/weak gene was passed on from a certain dog? It's just odd that they are both showing similar symptoms. Just something to think about.


This was my thought, too. A student in the class I covered where they discussed malabsorption issues stated her family had a known issue with a vitamin and had to take supplements. If they're not related, and both having the same issue, it's even more off because what are the chances two unrelated puppies would suffer from the same issue? The professor said it's important to push and push because doctors almost always misdiagnosed this kinds of issues and then don't figure it out until it's way too late.


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## doxieluv (Aug 8, 2011)

I think I worded that wrong. The emergency vet was asking me if he'd been eating and I was telling her he was getting two to three meals a day. And the vet was wondering if he wasn't getting nutrients from his food because even as they were working on him he seemed to be losing weight and muscle. She offered the potential of an undiagnosed liver problem when I told her he'd been having weight issues since he was around a year old. I've honestly lost most of my faith in vets.

No, Rayne is actually considered to be a toy australian shepherd or toy north american shepherd. She was supposed to be a mini aussie but she and her other two siblings weren't expected to get over 16ish pounds. Her breeder has retired from breeding and we are no longer in contact. 

I'm still in occasional contact with Colby's breeder so I told her what happened but she hasn't responded back yet. She probably won't until the end of the week or so when she checks her emails. When I got Colby I saw the last three generations on his mother's side. They were all healthy looking, fit and active. Running up and down the doggy stairs to race each other on the couch and playing with Colby and his littermates. I don't know about his father's side health wise because he was a stud dog. They only thing I have on the father is what it says in Colby's akc papers and pedigree sheet. 

I think they are also leaning it towards it being the food because whenever there was serious issues with their weight, it affected them both, although it always affected Colby more drastically. But it wouldn't explain why they both lost weight on kibble pre raw and my mother's yorkie was fine.


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## pogo (Aug 28, 2011)

I have no advice i'm afraid 

Just wanted to say i'm really sorry and sending lots of love your way


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## Neeko (Aug 11, 2010)

I'm an RN, and I have worked in critical care. I've seen plenty of sepsis. 

SIRS-MODS-Sepsis

SIRS-systemic inflammatory response syndrome. Something, typically an infection (pneumonia, urinary tract and skin are very common) causes inflammation throughout the body. Increased or decreased platelets, WBC's, etc. 

MODS-multiple organ dysfunction syndrome. All the inflammation causes organ failure, related to vasoconstriction, poor perfusion, etc. Decreased blood pressure, low urine output, labored breathing, high or lower than normal body temperature.

Sepsis-everything's awry. The body's clotting cascade is completely thrown off. Blood can be very thin, but at the same time contains micro emboli (tiny clots) that get stuck in vessels and organs, cutting off oxygen, ultimately causing death if untreated.

I'm so very sorry for your loss. Sepsis seems to be an overused diagnosis in veterinary medicine, particularly if a cause cannot be found. I know it won't change the past, but did your dog exhibit any of these other symptoms? I'm personally doubtful raw was involved.


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## Neeko (Aug 11, 2010)

An addendum-raw could be involved if a bone perforated the intestines, causing peritonitis, which very quickly leads to sepsis.


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## woganvonderweidenstrasse (Nov 22, 2012)

doxieluv said:


> I think I worded that wrong. The emergency vet was asking me if he'd been eating and I was telling her he was getting two to three meals a day. And the vet was wondering if he wasn't getting nutrients from his food because even as they were working on him he seemed to be losing weight and muscle. She offered the potential of an undiagnosed liver problem when I told her he'd been having weight issues since he was around a year old. I've honestly lost most of my faith in vets.
> 
> No, Rayne is actually considered to be a toy australian shepherd or toy north american shepherd. She was supposed to be a mini aussie but she and her other two siblings weren't expected to get over 16ish pounds. Her breeder has retired from breeding and we are no longer in contact.
> 
> ...


I've also lost faith in vets; this past weekend I posted on this forum about Logan being very ill. He would not get up and when he did you could see he was struggling, limping when walking, he was not drinking water and breath smelled really bad...there was a point were I thought I was gonna loose my boy. We took him to the vet and she did a few tests including an xray...all she could find was gas in his stomach (but no blockage), high temperature and elevated white blood cell count. She wanted to keep him overnight, but I refused. She then gave me antibiotics and told me to keep an eye on him and bring him back if he did not improve. We left with a bill of R 1 300. Later that day I contacted the breeder and explained the symptoms, she replied saying (without even seeing the dog) that it sounds to her like Panosteitis, inflammation at the growth plates of the long bones, or basically just growing pains. I did a bit of research and found the symptoms matched Logan's exactly; fever, limping, lethargy, elevated white blood cells, and that the disease is very common in my breed, but that they always recover with or without treatment. I ended up not giving him the antibiotics and by Wednesday Logan was running around like he was never ill. 
I understand that it is difficult for vets to always diagnose correctly, but seriously then they must not charge the rates that they do..I ended up paying R 1 300 for a misdiagnosis and antibiotics I never used...it's a bit upsetting, but anyway....at least my boy is well.


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## Herzo (Feb 5, 2011)

Oh don't be so hard on them, Vets are just people just like Doctors. I think whether it is our dogs or ourselves we need to stay on our toes. Not just follow blindly but not just go so far as to say I don't trust them at all.

We all make mistakes ALL of us, any way I don't know of anyone that is perfect and I know I'm not. Hag in there people.


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## Sheltielover25 (Jan 18, 2011)

Herzo said:


> Oh don't be so hard on them, Vets are just people just like Doctors. I think whether it is our dogs or ourselves we need to stay on our toes. Not just follow blindly but not just go so far as to say I don't trust them at all.
> 
> We all make mistakes ALL of us, any way I don't know of anyone that is perfect and I know I'm not. Hag in there people.


Uh, while we all might make mistakes, doctors should be a little more careful and held a lot more accountable:

There are 700,000 physicians in the United States.
-- There are 120,000 accidental deaths in the United States caused by physicians every year, and the accidental death percentage per physician is 0.171.

Learn more: Doctors kill more people than guns: urban legend or fact? (update 1)


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## Sheltielover25 (Jan 18, 2011)

woganvonderweidenstrasse said:


> I've also lost faith in vets; this past weekend I posted on this forum about Logan being very ill. He would not get up and when he did you could see he was struggling, limping when walking, he was not drinking water and breath smelled really bad...there was a point were I thought I was gonna loose my boy. We took him to the vet and she did a few tests including an xray...all she could find was gas in his stomach (but no blockage), high temperature and elevated white blood cell count. She wanted to keep him overnight, but I refused. She then gave me antibiotics and told me to keep an eye on him and bring him back if he did not improve. We left with a bill of R 1 300. Later that day I contacted the breeder and explained the symptoms, she replied saying (without even seeing the dog) that it sounds to her like Panosteitis, inflammation at the growth plates of the long bones, or basically just growing pains. I did a bit of research and found the symptoms matched Logan's exactly; fever, limping, lethargy, elevated white blood cells, and that the disease is very common in my breed, but that they always recover with or without treatment. I ended up not giving him the antibiotics and by Wednesday Logan was running around like he was never ill.
> I understand that it is difficult for vets to always diagnose correctly, but seriously then they must not charge the rates that they do..I ended up paying R 1 300 for a misdiagnosis and antibiotics I never used...it's a bit upsetting, but anyway....at least my boy is well.


I feel exactly the same way. I took my dog to the vet because she picked up the flu from some foster dogs who were shedding their flu shot (last of the vaccinated foster dogs for the record) and she was throwing up on her second day so figured I'd take her in to get blood work done. They immediately wanted to put her on fluids, I said uh look at her gums, I've kept her hydrated. Upon looking at her gums they decided she didn't need fluids. They would have ripped me off, charging me, and stressing my dog out because they assume vomiting means dehydrated. Uh can they investigate first? Yeah, most vets I extremely dislike. I have had a few great experiences, the ones who sit back and listen to their patient, ya know? But the majority of them are just guessing and out to make money. The vet I'm discussing here insisted pedialite is healthier than bone broth/coconut water LMAO idiots.


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## naturalfeddogs (Jan 6, 2011)

I personally have a nephew who has been very very sick and in the hospital since just before Christmas, due to medical malpractice. Both doctors and vets are in an area of work where there really is no room for mistakes. One mistake can mean life or death. There's really no room for error. When people's/animals lives and health are in your hands, you really have to be on top of it.

Herzo, you do have a very good, forgiving heart. Sometimes I wish everyone was like you, and there would be no problems in the world!


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## Fundog (Oct 25, 2012)

I second that last bit: Herzo, you're an amazing person. We need a lot more people like you in the world. God Bless!


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## Herzo (Feb 5, 2011)

Oh I'm really not as nice as all that. I just don't like to rag on them all the time. There are some things I am pretty black and white on. I guess I'm just more use to home town vets because it's such a small town and I know them all.

You know what it is, I am the third child in a family of four girls, my two older sisters fought all the time. Then my second sister also stared fighting with my younger sister and I spent my whole life being the mediator. Oh the memories.

And the two older ones are still at it fun, fun.


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