# Beef Liver



## claybuster (Dec 18, 2008)

> RFD: Seriously, I have never seen liver described that way. I think they may be playing games with it. All the dog food companies play word games in their ingredients list


This above quote comes off another thread which has veered far off course from CBPM.

You see it described in Abady foods as "undefatted beef liver". RFD feels they're just playing games with the description, but there is a lot he obviously does not know about Abady and their ingredients. Abady does not shop for liver in the USA. Abady beef liver comes from Argentina for several reasons. In Argentina, they don't use the hormones that can be trapped in the liver. Mind as well include take down drugs like sodium pentothal for they probably use the sledge hammer down in Argentina. Abady avoids the potentially harmful when it comes to the ingredients, and the hormone and drugs are not welcome in the dog food.


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## RawFedDogs (Jun 16, 2008)

claybuster said:


> You see it described in Abady foods as "undefatted beef liver". RFD feels they're just playing games with the description, but there is a lot he obviously does not know about Abady and their ingredients.


First, you didn't answer the question. And yes, I know about Abady and their highly competent marketing departiment. Their ingredients are dog food ingredients just like every other dog food mfg.



> Abady does not shop for liver in the USA. Abady beef liver comes from Argentina for several reasons. In Argentina, they don't use the hormones that can be trapped in the liver.


Excelent marketing department.



> Mind as well include take down drugs like sodium pentothal for they probably use the sledge hammer down in Argentina. Abady avoids the potentially harmful when it comes to the ingredients, and the hormone and drugs are not welcome in the dog food.


Evidently CB isn't up on the slaughter practices in slaughter houses. I doubt he has ever visited on and watched the whole process from beginning to end. I have. There is no sodium pentothal used. The animal is stunned, usually by a blow to the head. It is immediately hoisted by hind legs and the jugular veign is cut and the animal is bled out. Bleeding out a live animal is the best way to go.

Sanitation practices are relilgiously adhered to. I doubt they have the strict sanitation practices in Argentina that they do here. Even the knives used are sanitised before each use. There are strict rugulations about employees and their sanitation practices also.


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## claybuster (Dec 18, 2008)

RawFedDogs said:


> Excelent marketing department.


Yes, their website is a real state of the art (that they just got a few year back)...and all those TV commercials...WOW...their market deptarment is really screaming!


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## rannmiller (Jun 27, 2008)

RawFedDogs said:


> Evidently CB isn't up on the slaughter practices in slaughter houses. I doubt he has ever visited on and watched the whole process from beginning to end. I have. There is no sodium pentothal used. The animal is stunned, usually by a blow to the head. It is immediately hoisted by hind legs and the jugular veign is cut and the animal is bled out.


Yeah I was confused by that statement about the sodium pentothal as well. It's not like you have a cow you're going to feed to people and animals put to sleep, you slaughter it. And I could've sworn that was how they did it, just the way RFD described it, so thanks for clearing that up :smile:

Also, the mental image conjured by this is just so delightful, it's no wonder I'm still a vegetarian (no judgment on those here who aren't, it's just hard for me to stomach the thought of it. I know it's necessary for my dogs though, so I get over it for them). The point? I'm sure if a cow was just nicely put down, people wouldn't be so up in arms about cruel treatment of food animals in slaughterhouses, but they would be up in arms about the poison they were ingesting from it instead. Or maybe they wouldn't since they'd probably die from it as well.


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## CorgiPaws (Mar 31, 2009)

claybuster said:


> RFD feels they're just playing games with the description, but there is a lot he obviously does not know about Abady and their ingredients. Abady does not shop for liver in the USA. Abady beef liver comes from Argentina for several reasons.


You honestly trust the sanitation standards in Argentina, but not the USA? There's clearly a lot you don't understand about the fit-for-human-consumption food in this country. Abady really has you wrapped around their fingers. 
Aside from drawing attention to some sketchy ingredients, you did nothing to explain why it is described as "Undefatted Beef Liver" so until then, I'm with RFD and word games.


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## EnglishBullTerriers (Sep 10, 2008)

I Wikipedia'd this phrase (undefatted beef liver) and this is what I cam up with:
"Did you mean: undefeated beef liver"

This pretty much means that the word/phrase doesn't exist!! Conclusion... Word games! :wink:


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## rannmiller (Jun 27, 2008)

Haha "undefeated" beef liver, that's funny! 

Maybe if it's "undefatted" it means that normally they remove that fat from beef liver before it is sold for consumption, but in Abady's case, they don't remove the fat so that it's in its more natural form? Just guessing. That sounds the most logical to me though.


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## claybuster (Dec 18, 2008)

rannmiller said:


> Haha "undefeated" beef liver, that's funny!
> 
> Maybe if it's "undefatted" it means that normally they remove that fat from beef liver before it is sold for consumption, but in Abady's case, they don't remove the fat so that it's in its more natural form? Just guessing. That sounds the most logical to me though.


Yea, you get a gold star! Some have a difficult time using logic.


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## claybuster (Dec 18, 2008)

Ok, so I have been doing some research and can't come up with anything on the sodium pentothal and the animals. I could have sworn I read that somewhere in the with the push for more humane slaughter. You know how groups like PETA are always make a fuss about stuff like that and the more humane ways to go about things....anyway

Gases are used in the slaughter of animals (some) and that would be the carbon monoxide gas chamber. I sure it will be denied though and some will assert their is no danger of drugs ending up in the liver. There are plenty of other drugs to be concerned about though is what I have found, and they come in the form of a whole host of vaccines. And of course the hormones will also be denied as well. We all know the liver is the filter of the body and the drugs and hormones will collect in the organ.

So, if you do a goggle web search on "Argentine beef liver" and peek around some, you will soon discover the words HORMONE FREE. You can make all the fuss you want about sanitary conditions, it is done for a reason. And that reason is to choose ingredients such as liver that are indeed DRUG FREE and HORMONE free. Naturally, there are always those in denial and say it can't happen but the reality is, these drugs and steroids do collect in the liver
and that is something that the Abady people feel is best left OUT of the dog food.

So, I may have bobbled the Sodium Pentothal issue, but the drugs like hormones and drugs like vaccines are reality.

You can call it word games if you like, but undeffatted beef liver is what it is and if you apply some logic like Miss ramiller can do, it is liver with the fat left intact, and it comes from Argentina to keep that drug free.

searches you can do off google:

Cattle and vaccines (and there are A LOT of vaccines for cattle)
Hormones and cattle.

Charlie


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## JayJayisme (Aug 2, 2009)

rannmiller said:


> I'm sure if a cow was just nicely put down, people wouldn't be so up in arms about cruel treatment of food animals in slaughterhouses...


I don't think the issue these days is about how steers are slaughtered, it's about the quality of their life as they are raised for slaughter, namely feedlot raised cattle versus free-range (i.e grazing) animals. I suspect many people would go full vegan after a visit to a large, commercial feedlot.


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## RawFedDogs (Jun 16, 2008)

Cattle aren't raised in feedlots. All cattle are pasture raised. They are put in feed lots the last couple of months before slaughter to fatten them up.


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## Doc (Jan 17, 2009)

MMMMOOOOOOO - I guess I have been in the feed lot too long .........


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## JayJayisme (Aug 2, 2009)

RawFedDogs said:


> Cattle aren't raised in feedlots. All cattle are pasture raised. They are put in feed lots the last couple of months before slaughter to fatten them up.


Yes, you are right RFD, cattle are not raised in feedlots throughout their entire life, although that is not exactly what I stated either. 

Some beef cattle never see a feedlot and eat grass throughout their entire lifecycle. I won't use the term "grass-fed" because that is an unregulated and ambiguous term which is made cloudy by the fact that many grass-fed cattle are "finished" in a feedlot. But there are some "organic" ranches that raise their cattle for slaughter without them ever setting hoof in a feedlot.

All that aside, most beef cattle are moved from the pasture to the feedlot when they are between 7 and 12 months of age then they are "finished" there for 3 months or more. So for all intents and purposes, since a relatively large percentage of these animals' lives are spent on a feedlot, that was what I was referring to when I mentioned that "I suspect many people would go full vegan after a visit to a large, commercial feedlot."


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## RawFedDogs (Jun 16, 2008)

JayJayisme said:


> Yes, you are right RFD, cattle are not raised in feedlots throughout their entire life, although that is not exactly what I stated either.


I went back and reread your post and it appeared you implied that cows were either grassfed or feedlot animals. :smile:



> All that aside, most beef cattle are moved from the pasture to the feedlot when they are between 7 and 12 months of age then they are "finished" there for 3 months or more.


I THINK around here they are grassfed until about 3 or a little more. I have seen yearling hefers and they are pretty small animals. Again I THINK most cows here have a calf before they are sent to feed lot. That practice varies with the market and feed conditions.



> So for all intents and purposes, since a relatively large percentage of these animals' lives are spent on a feedlot, that was what I was referring to when I mentioned that "I suspect many people would go full vegan after a visit to a large, commercial feedlot."


I think they spend a smaller percentage of their life in a feedlot than you do but I agree with your vegan statement although it didn't have that effect on me. I still LOVE to eat cow. :smile:


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## EnglishBullTerriers (Sep 10, 2008)

So, back to the beef liver. 
If my uncle takes his cows, that he raises in his 'backyard', to his butcher friend and has him cut out the liver and it gets packaged for the drive, and then he brings it to me. Is that considered 'undefatted beef liver'? Because I just call that fresh!! :biggrin: 
What about the heart? Is that considered 'undefatted beef heart'?  
The word 'un-de-fatted' is an oximoron any way. It just doesn't make any sence to say it like the unless they are hiding something, or there are addatives, or they just don't know what to call 'processed' without calling it processed! Everything in your kibble (Adaby, Orejin, Wellness, Nutro or whatever it is) is processed and therefore it is not nearly as good as a prey model raw diet. If the meat is good enough for us to eat, but the kibble isn't.... I will take the meat! I would bet you that my dogs have better teeth, breath and poop then your dogs do. Plus, there isn't any supplementing needed for a raw diet unles your dog is sick. (All dogs get sick!!) Then you can choose to do some natural supplementing or you can go with whatever your vet says. I prefer to do the natural way as often as possible. 
Just some thoughts! :wink:


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## claybuster (Dec 18, 2008)

EnglishBullTerriers said:


> So, back to the beef liver.
> If my uncle takes his cows, that he raises in his 'backyard', to his butcher friend and has him cut out the liver and it gets packaged for the drive, and then he brings it to me. Is that considered 'undefatted beef liver'? Because I just call that fresh!! :biggrin:


Yes, but make sure to tell your uncle to tell his butcher leave as much fat on liver as possibe.



> What about the heart? Is that considered 'undefatted beef heart'?
> The word 'un-de-fatted' is an oximoron any way. It just doesn't make any sence to say it like the unless they are hiding something, or there are addatives, or they just don't know what to call 'processed' without calling it processed!


You lost me. De-fatted means they take the fat off. Un-defatted would they would leave the fat on. Why is that so difficult? Maybe they should just call it Liver With the Fat, to help people out?




> Everything in your kibble (Adaby, Orejin, Wellness, Nutro or whatever it is) is processed and therefore it is not nearly as good as a prey model raw diet. If the meat is good enough for us to eat, but the kibble isn't.... I will take the meat!


Abady kibbles IMO are far better than Orijen or Evo.




> I would bet you that my dogs have better teeth, breath and poop then your dogs do. Plus, there isn't any supplementing needed for a raw diet unles your dog is sick. (All dogs get sick!!) Then you can choose to do some natural supplementing or you can go with whatever your vet says. I prefer to do the natural way as often as possible.
> Just some thoughts!


Ok...I want my $25 donation to go the Phila Zoo. lol

I don't supplement my granular with anything, no supplementation is needed.
The granular is complete in itself. I said blood work against blood work a little
while back with no takers. My friend Linsey chickened out and wanted no part the bet. I understand, that would be like taking candy from a baby anyway and I don't want to do that. She's saving up for a freezer and shouldn’t risk losing the bet. You sound a bit more sporting though so maybe you want a piece of that bet? So, I have bring her in for a heart worm test soon. It's been about 3 years because I have getting the pills from Canada Vet. I'll stop in the Vet, get the test, and ask the Vet about a print-out of the blood panel and what the numbers mean. I'll put my numbers up against anyone on the board, including you prey model folks. Bring it. I'm confident. I'll hit 9.9s or 99.9s, whatever, each and every time.

Why do you people have to sound so negative all the time?


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## CorgiPaws (Mar 31, 2009)

claybuster said:


> I said blood work against blood work a little
> while back with no takers. My friend Linsey chickened out and wanted no part the bet. I understand, that would be like taking candy from a baby anyway and I don't want to do that.


Again, CB, I didn't know I cross your mind so much! It's flattering, really, how my name appears so much in your posts that I have nothing to do with! 

I didn't chicken out, I'm just not going to pay to have bloodwork done when I already know I'm doing what's best for my dogs, and I have a wedding to pay for. 



claybuster said:


> She's saving up for a freezer and shouldn’t risk losing the bet.


You're right, I do need to get a freezer! So I can be in the position to give my dogs a prey model raw diet- as nature intended. After all, I'd hate to feed anything from any dog food company for too long. Processed junk. 



claybuster said:


> I'll put my numbers up against anyone on the board, including you prey model folks. Bring it. I'm confident. I'll hit 9.9s or 99.9s, whatever, each and every time.


Your confidence manifests itself in insecure tendencies. You know damn well no one wants to pay for useless blood tests. Also, you're right, your dogs tests must be normal, as the tests "normal results" are based off of kibble fed dogs, and not real healthy raw fed dogs. Any vet will tell you that Evo is FAR too high in protein, and you and I both know that's a load of crap. What your vet, or any other vet, has to say about test results with direct link to diet and nutrition doesn't mean crap to me.


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## EnglishBullTerriers (Sep 10, 2008)

claybuster said:


> Yes, but make sure to tell your uncle to tell his butcher leave as much fat on liver as possibe.


The butcher litterally cuts it out of the cow into the wrapping and wraps it up! No processing...No cutting around the edges... No taking fat off or putting it back on or 'undefatting' it!! 



> You lost me. De-fatted means they take the fat off. Un-defatted would they would leave the fat on. Why is that so difficult? Maybe they should just call it Liver With the Fat, to help people out?


You seem to get lost pretty easy. To say that something is 'undefatted' is to say that it has the fat on it??? Why don't they just say it? Why do they feel like they need to make up fake words to impress potential customers?? If you can legitametly answer that question, I will be impressed. But do note that anything that you say will be researched and verified to be accurate!! Not just taken at your word! 




> Abady kibbles IMO are far better than Orijen or Evo.



This was never the question. I said, they are ALL PROCESSED! Processed food is far inferior to a prey model raw. That was the point and you TOTALLY missed it!!



> Ok...I want my $25 donation to go the Phila Zoo. lol
> 
> I don't supplement my granular with anything, no supplementation is needed.
> The granular is complete in itself. I said blood work against blood work a little
> while back with no takers. My friend Linsey chickened out and wanted no part the bet. I understand, that would be like taking candy from a baby anyway and I don't want to do that. She's saving up for a freezer and shouldn’t risk losing the bet. You sound a bit more sporting though so maybe you want a piece of that bet? So, I have bring her in for a heart worm test soon. It's been about 3 years because I have getting the pills from Canada Vet. I'll stop in the Vet, get the test, and ask the Vet about a print-out of the blood panel and what the numbers mean. I'll put my numbers up against anyone on the board, including you prey model folks. Bring it. I'm confident. I'll hit 9.9s or 99.9s, whatever, each and every time.


If I feel up to it, I might ask for a print out of the blood work. BUT!!! If I do and I post it, YOU have to own up and post yours!!! No looking at my numbers and 'fixing' or deciding to not follow through!! 
Of coarse, that is if I feel like getting a print out! I might not feel like it when I go back to the vet!



> Why do you people have to sound so negative all the time?


I am not seeing the negativity! I am very baffelled about why someone would have to make up a word to make it more appealing for people.
Plus, you always try to compair kibble to raw and it doesn't work. You can only compair kibble to kibble. If you want to do that, fine. Your kibble still isn't the best. (processed food=kibble) No kibble is when it comes down to it. You have a product that is processed and you alway have to make a comprimise with a filler, wether it be fruits and veggies or grains! (Rice is a grain BTW!!) You cannot have a kibble that doesn't have a filler of some kind. As you have said before somewhere else, it is what holds the food together!! Do you know what holds my food together... fat, muscle, bone, cartalege, tendons, etc... No fillers!! You food doesn't compair. You can not make an apple a steak!! It doesn't work!!
Sorry for being negative again, but that is just the raw coming out in my prey model diet! :biggrin:


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## RawFedDogs (Jun 16, 2008)

Children, children, children ... I hate to be the bearer of bad tidings ... well, actually I don't. :smile: Blood tests only measure how well organs are operating. They do not measure the quality of the diet the dog is eating. If it were that simple, there would be none of the lower end kibbles. Everyone would feed the food which gave the best test results which would be a prey model raw diet. :biggrin::biggrin::biggrin:


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## claybuster (Dec 18, 2008)

CorgiPaws said:


> Again, CB, I didn't know I cross your mind so much! It's flattering, really, how my name appears so much in your posts that I have nothing to do with!


Don't be too flattered. You only cross my mind when it comes to dog food.



> I didn't chicken out, I'm just not going to pay to have bloodwork done when I already know I'm doing what's best for my dogs, and I have a wedding to pay for.


I know you're not chicken, I was just teasing. Gambling is not good anyway, unless it's for the church and orphanage. The zoo is a nice place to contribute but it would still be gambling.



> You're right, I do need to get a freezer! So I can be in the position to give my dogs a prey model raw diet- as nature intended. After all, I'd hate to feed anything from any dog food company for too long. Processed junk.


I was thinking about that...maybe you could ask the grandparents if you could stake a claim to a small area of the fridge, just big enough for some home-prepared in a casserole dish or stew pot? Then you could prepare your mix weekly for the dogs. Despite cooked meat losing nutrients during cooking, it is still far better than any kibble diet. Wouldn't you agree? And you don't have to give them just meat, fat, and bone. You can safely use white rice as a base (as a #2 ingredient or lower). You just need to get your percentages right in the diet, per weight of the dog. You need the organ meat but you know that obviously. If I were feeding home-prepared and including liver, I would definitely go with chicken liver over beef liver, unless of course it was my own cow! Beef liver may have the hormones. Ok for you, our bodies produce more hormones than what we can ingest, but Abady would argue I think not good for carnivores, and better to avoid for the dogs. So, chicken livers may be a better choice. Only in Canada do they put antibiotics in the feed, and that is not done in USA. Steroids in the feeds ending up in chicken liver? I don't know the answer to that. I think that could happen with turkeys for Thanksgiving (super pell feeds), but probably not with standard pellet feeds for chickens? 




> Your confidence manifests itself in insecure tendencies. You know damn well no one wants to pay for useless blood tests. Also, you're right, your dogs tests must be normal, as the tests "normal results" are based off of kibble fed dogs, and not real healthy raw fed dogs. Any vet will tell you that Evo is FAR too high in protein, and you and I both know that's a load of crap. What your vet, or any other vet, has to say about test results with direct link to diet and nutrition doesn't mean crap to me.


Maybe I just like to gamble? So much hostility in your words. Some of those words aren't necessary, I would never use them toward you.


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## claybuster (Dec 18, 2008)

RawFedDogs said:


> Children, children, children ... I hate to be the bearer of bad tidings ... well, actually I don't. :smile: Blood tests only measure how well organs are operating. They do not measure the quality of the diet the dog is eating. If it were that simple, there would be none of the lower end kibbles. Everyone would feed the food which gave the best test results which would be a prey model raw diet. :biggrin::biggrin::biggrin:


I'd be willing to bet my dog organs are operating just as good...lol


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## CorgiPaws (Mar 31, 2009)

claybuster said:


> I'd be willing to bet my dog organs are operating just as good...lol


Max's blood work read PERFECT right up until his kidneys started to give out. 
His whole life he's had digestive problems. Anything but California Natural kibble gives him liquid mucus stools, generally bloody.. and not just a little bloody. I've used raw as a supplement for a very long time, long before I went raw entirely, and the smallest amount of raw (or even cooked) chicken, turkey, buffalo, elk, etc had him vomiting, goopy eyes, and the worst diarreah I've ever seen a 25lb animal produce. The kind you can't pick up, and simply spray the lawn off (if he was even able to make it outside) in hopes that you got it all. 
Took him to the vet a NUMBER of times. Allergy tests. Blook work. Urinalysis. All came back normal. Good, even. 

Champ had a lot of problems as a puppy. Thank God he's in perfect health now. He had problems with his growth plates not closing for days after a growth spurt (generally growth spurts happen in the night and the plates should assume normal position within a few hours) That explained his random inability to walk for three days at a time. It did not explain why he had problems chewing, and more importantly swallowing. Nor did it explain why his stools constantly had large amounts of blood in them. 
His bloodwork came back normal as well. We never did find out what was wrong with him, he got better on his own. (vet gave me antibiotics but I didn't ever give champ any.)
EDITED TO ADD: during this time, Champ was on Pedigree before I knew any better. Pedigree gave normal blood results. The results of blood tests do not indicate wether or not your dogs diet is superior. 

My point is, great bloodwork doesn't necessarily mean that the dog is in great condition.


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