# Need help dipping my toes in raw.



## LucasBC (Jan 22, 2017)

Hi everyone, the more I read about canine nutrition the more I am leaning toward trying to slowly introduce some raw into my dogs diet. Right now I think I feel comfortable feeding mostly kibble (Dr Tim's right now, Annamaet and Victor might be put in rotation in the future) but supplementing with some raw. I do not really feel the need right now to spend $100 per month in raw food for my dog when he is doing fine on kibble. I am also not confident in my ability to cook a completely balanced meal for dogs. I am also a little uncomfortable with the safety of raw still. So I am thinking about just buying some beef ribs and eggs at the local grocery store and adding that to his meals. That should keep it relatively inexpensive and I feel fairly safe with beef since humans eat raw beef or almost raw beef. 

That said, I still have questions. If most of his nutrition is still coming from kibble, how much should I supplement? 25%? Will such a small amount of raw inclusion even bear any benefits? How often should I supplement (every day, twice a week etc.)? How do you calculate the amount of protein and fat and other nutrition he is getting from the beef and eggs? 

My dog is a 7 month old BC with recurring UTI's and very mild pano. (I also have a 12 year old Eskie but am concerned about changing his diet so drastically at this age)

Any other suggestions or help would be greatly appreciated. Like I said, I'm still a tad uncomfortable with beginning this but the logic of feeding raw seems to make sense so I'm very interested in trying it a little bit.


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## naturalfeddogs (Jan 6, 2011)

IMO, either go raw or stay with kibble. You risk digestive upset with rotating all the kibble, some raw and trying to figure out a bunch of percentages. And I'm not sure of this, but it also seems like it could upset the nutritional balance in general all the way around.


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## LucasBC (Jan 22, 2017)

Hmm. I thought about that but from what I've read I was under the impression that supplementing kibble with some raw is a common practice. I could be wrong about that though. Thanks for the info.


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## OtherGuy (Nov 30, 2016)

I don't agree about not supplementing kibble with raw. At one time there was a commonly held belief in the raw feeding community that kibble digested more slowly than raw and would therefore cause digestion problems. But this turned out to be totally untrue. Kibble actially digests slighly faster than raw (not suprising since it is a highly-processed food).

All sorts of trainers (mushers, hunters, competive agility folks, etc) do very well by their dogs supplimenting better quality kibbles with raw. Do I have a preference for pure raw? Absolutely. 

But the more you can lower the amount of carbohydrates in your dog's meals (while increasing good fats and proteins) the better off he will be. 

I've suggested in another thread that you look at some of the high-protein/high-fat kibbles (if you stick with kibble) and would encourage you to further reduce calories from carbohydrates by supplimenting with raw if you are not ready to take the full leap. I'd hope that "supplimenting" whould be a gateway for you for an eventual transition to full-on raw, but were supplimenting to remain your feeding mode, Luke would still be way ahead.

Caveats:

1) As with moving from a high-carb kibble to one high in fats, move slowly on adding a lot of fat to inital supplemented meals. Dogs generally need a transition to fat burning. In time, fats are the prized energy source.

2) When supplementation become a significant portion of the meals you'll need to be mindful of PMR ratios to keep the Calciumhosphorus balance in the proper ratios.

3) Occasional raw eggs (with shells) are fine, but if you suppliment with eggs frequently the best nutritional evidence if that it's best to cook the egg whites (leaving yokes raw) to preserve biotin (which is bound by raw albumen). 

I shop well, but I am convinced I'm spending less on raw feeding that if I were feeding a premium kibble. Beef heart tend to be a very expensive cut of red meat that would be a natural addition to Dr Tim's formulas (that IMS have no red meat source). Increase amounts slowly.

I think this is a good thought. And a good way to explore if raw is an option that might suit you moving forward.

Bill


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

feed one or the other. 

not both.

the imbalance, over time, is well talked about ....even if the evidence is anecdotally objective......

if you're going to feed eggs...feed separate from the kibble meal and soft boil them, leaving the yolk runny. and yes, i disagree with bill 

even though, fundamentally, we both agree that 100% raw is optimal.


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## OtherGuy (Nov 30, 2016)

If the raw supplements are "balanced" (as I advocate they need to be) and the kibble is balanced (such as it is, recognizing all kibbles have too many carbohydrates) then the sum of the two will be balanced. And the supplimented kibble diet would be superior to a kibble diet alone.

I'd far prefer a balance raw diet (sans kibble) but not everyone is ready to take the plunge. I prefer not making the perfect the enemy of the good. 

There is no evidence based reason not to feed fresh meat or eggs with kibble, and tons of anecdotal evidence with canine athletes to support its practice.

I agree that 100% raw is optimal.

Bill


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## naturalfeddogs (Jan 6, 2011)

Re beat me to it, but I also have to say I disagree with Bill as well. We all know raw is best, but I just don't believe in mixing the two. Been there and done it, in my beginner days. Raw is species appropriate, therefore their bodies will use the nutrients efficiently. Kibble, on the other hand is cooked to death and over processed to the point the nutrients are cooked out and have to be added back in, in artificial synthetic forms. A dog's body isn't designed for human made synthetic stuff. It's much harder for their bodies to process it, therefore it sits longer in the gut attempting to digest mostly indigestible stuff. That's why kibble poops are so big, smelly and nasty. All of that is the undigested "extras" they can't do anything with.


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## naturalfeddogs (Jan 6, 2011)

And I forgot to also say this as well. If you want to try the two together, you can. Some dogs are ok with it, others are not. If you try, you will know one way or another if it is going to work for your dog. I made the mistake once, and that's all it took. I learned from that day.....


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## OtherGuy (Nov 30, 2016)

naturalfeddogs said:


> Re beat me to it, but I also have to say I disagree with Bill as well. We all know raw is best, but I just don't believe in mixing the two. Been there and done it, in my beginner days. Raw is species appropriate, therefore their bodies will use the nutrients efficiently. Kibble, on the other hand is cooked to death and over processed to the point the nutrients are cooked out and have to be added back in, in artificial synthetic forms. A dog's body isn't designed for human made synthetic stuff. It's much harder for their bodies to process it, therefore it sits longer in the gut attempting to digest mostly indigestible stuff. That's why kibble poops are so big, smelly and nasty. All of that is the undigested "extras" they can't do anything with.


You know Jenny that the notion that kibble is slower to digest has been completely dis-proven? Kibble actually digests slightly faster than raw.

There is no arguement from me about raw being more optimal or more species appropriate than a kibble diet. No contest.

However a balanced suppliment of raw food is better than kibble alone. 

Bill


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## naturalfeddogs (Jan 6, 2011)

I have heard and read mixed reviews on this topic, and I choose to continue to believe what I believe due to past experience. Here is a link that pretty well tells how I believe, and the two not mixing. (If this link works).Does Raw Food Digest Faster than Kibble | No More Vet Bills


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## OtherGuy (Nov 30, 2016)

Almost every sled-dog that runs in races like the Iditarod is fed a diet of kibble supplimented with raw. No dogs are put under more extreme demands than these. Racing Greyhounds are generally also fed a mix of kibble and raw. Many bird-dog owners do the same (especially in hunting season).

I know plenty of people supplimenting kibble with raw. No problems.

Do I think that all these dogs would be better off without kibble? You bet! We are like-minded in that reguard.

But, to analogize, if a person ate a purely junk-food diet and was convinced by a health-food advocate to replace 25% of their meals with real food (fresh produce and quality proteins) it might not be an "ideal" diet, but better than no fresh food at all. I think the same holds with dogs with respect to supplimenting kibble with raw. Not as good as 100% raw (not close), but better than kibble alone.

And once a person gets used to supplimenting in PMR ratios, the gateway is there to continue the progression. That's my feeling, anyways.

I think the notion that there is some sort of incompatibility between raw and kibble is unsupported by either science or the experience of those with long practice feeding this way, including most successful mushers.

Bill


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## LucasBC (Jan 22, 2017)

Thank you all for the advice, even if it is slightly dissonant . I may very slowly introduce some raw and see how he does. 

I have a couple more questions that might find more agreement. As relates agr, would luke at 7 months be too young to change his diet so drastically. Also would my older dog, 12 years, be too old? 

And second, how do you feed raw in a fiscally responsible raw? It seems to me that I would have to pay almost 4 times the amount I am spending on kibble. If there is a way to do it cheaper I may more seriously consider switching


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## naturalfeddogs (Jan 6, 2011)

LucasBC said:


> Thank you all for the advice, even if it is slightly dissonant . I may very slowly introduce some raw and see how he does.
> 
> I have a couple more questions that might find more agreement. As relates agr, would luke at 7 months be too young to change his diet so drastically. Also would my older dog, 12 years, be too old?
> 
> And second, how do you feed raw in a fiscally responsible raw? It seems to me that I would have to pay almost 4 times the amount I am spending on kibble. If there is a way to do it cheaper I may more seriously consider switching


No dog is too young or too old to start raw. There are breeders who wean their litters directly onto raw. 

Sometimes its more expensive to feed raw, sometimes cheaper. When it comes to sourcing raw food, sometimes it comes down to being creative. Look for butchers and processors in your area. I have used Craigslist and local free classifieds and scored hundreds of pounds of free meat. Deer processors give away free scraps. Knowing cattle farmers is a good thing as well. Last year we got two whole cows for free within about a three week period because of lameness. So, just research your area. There may be sources around you didn't even know were there.


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## OtherGuy (Nov 30, 2016)

LucasBC said:


> Thank you all for the advice, even if it is slightly dissonant . I may very slowly introduce some raw and see how he does.
> 
> I have a couple more questions that might find more agreement. As relates agr, would luke at 7 months be too young to change his diet so drastically. Also would my older dog, 12 years, be too old?
> 
> And second, how do you feed raw in a fiscally responsible raw? It seems to me that I would have to pay almost 4 times the amount I am spending on kibble. If there is a way to do it cheaper I may more seriously consider switching


My Vizsla, Chester, started on raw and has never eaten kibble (save a couple of occasions when he "stole" a nibble while on a doggy-play date). 7 months is not too young. I think he younger the better.

Raw can be exorbitantly expensive if one goes for premades or orders from "boutique" suppliers. And would be pricy (in my area) if one hit markets aimed at more upscale (convienience oriented) clients. Instead I go to markets that aim at a more "ethnic" audience, and ones more likely to have alternative bits. I rarely pay more than $0.79/lb for bone-in chicken (and stock up if there is a 49 cent sale). Beef Kidney and Beef liver are both less than $1.50/lb. Beef heart is about $2/lb. Nice fatty pork leg or sholder is $1/lb.

Part of the raw adventure is figuring out what your local advantages are. Mine are ethnic markets and a supplier who delivers "odd bits." I'm meeting the truck today to pick up 3 cases of stuff.

In some places there are hunters, ranchers, or slaughter houses where one can get cheaper stuff.

Remember, we aim to feed "prey model" which means feeding snout to tail. So we want "weird stuff" that most humans don't consider premium cuts. 

I honestly believe I spend less on raw than I would on a so-called "premium" kibble. Not breaking the bank.

Having a freezer that allows one to stash the big scores or bulk purchases is almost a necessity to keep prices down and diversity up.

Bill


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## Celt (Dec 27, 2010)

I feed both kibble and raw. I have kibble down all day. On some days, my pups clean their bowls, others they don't touch'em. When I feed raw, it's the evening meal. I've never had any trouble doing this, but my pups are used to eating lots of different types of foods. I started feeding raw because of our elderly golden retriever. He was 16 when we switched him. He loved it and different have any problems. Again he was used to eating different types of food, just never anything raw. I've switched a 4 month old and a 7week old pup to kibble/raw without problems as well.


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## OldGnarlHead (Feb 17, 2016)

Also, we used to feed Orijen before we switched to raw and we definitely spend less per month than we did with Orijen. It's all about the discount meats!


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