# New Orijen Formula



## practicalfeeder (Feb 12, 2011)

"I hope Champion PetFoods takes serious action regarding the stream of negative reactions taking place as a possible result of their new formula. I considered switching my dog over to Orijen until I read all of the negative reviews (from other sites too). I mean coincidental vomiting, loose stool, organ failure, and loss of appetite?? I’m not paying that price for this food unless some of these issues are addressed. I wish they still had the old formula. I see hardly anything but fabulous reviews for the old formula"


From another website.


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## Caty M (Aug 13, 2010)

Not every food works with every dog! :wink:

I feed raw but use Orijen kibbles as training treats. Yes, the new formula.

The ingredients are still much better than the stuff you promote.


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## buddy97 (Mar 29, 2010)

i havent had any problems on the new orijen formula. the changes are fairly subtle, but some dogs are sensitive even to subtle changes.

if there is something in champion pet foods causing organ failure, im sure sure we will all hear about it very soon.


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## kevin bradley (Aug 9, 2009)

the problem you have w/ the internet(and yes, I realize I'm on it now  is this.... ANYONE can claim anything they want. There is no judge or jury to decipher what is being hurled around.

I just googled "how many dogs in the U.S."

Guess what the number is? 77 million. If 1/10th of a percent of those dogs got sick this afternoon, that is 70,000 sick Dogs. 

Now, 70k Dog owners complaining online about their sick pups would cause one helluva fervor around the country, I can assure you. You'd probably say it was a pretty widespread epidemic. But if I told you your Dog had 1 in 1,000 of a chance to be one of the unlucky dogs, you probably wouldn't worry so much.

The internet is great but I do think it causes issues.


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## wags (Jan 31, 2009)

A great thing to do is go out and talk to your mom and pop store you buy the food at. Talk to people personally and get their honest opinions on the matter at hand. Or at any place you can chat about dog foods! And actually try it yourself so you can get the actual first hand experience with the new food. You may be surprised and find that it actually does work for your pup! Some people dont include what else they are giving their dogs and that it coulod be another problem that is causing their dogs to get sick. They jump at oh its that brand of dog food or this brand of dog food and they dont say but I was also feeding my dog cooked chicken and the cooked bones (which is a big no~no)at the time(I'm just saying this as a maybe you know just saying!!! not menaing its true) so I say dont trust everything you read! Not everyone goes into deatils about the little things they also give and do with their pups! Champion is not going to go and resort to lesser than great foods. They have a good repution and want to keep it.:happy:


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## CorgiPaws (Mar 31, 2009)

wags said:


> A great thing to do is go out and talk to your mom and pop store you buy the food at. Talk to people personally and get their honest opinions on the matter at hand.


Some are dishonest when it comes to making a sale or not, but there are so many honest small shops out there- this is great advice. 

As a raw feeder, I don't have first hand experience with new kibbles as they come out.... but I do have feedback from all of my customers on what's working for their pets, and I'm always more than happy to relay that information onto people who ask or need advice. Though it's not my own solitary experience, I do hold the feedback of many. :biggrin:


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## DarDog (Sep 6, 2010)

What's the website that you are quoting? You mentioned before that there were problems with Orijen/Champion/Canadian foods, and you haven't seemed to have explained how you came to those conclusions...


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## PUNKem733 (Jun 12, 2009)

I love how you quote that, and just say from another website, what site??! Also the changes made to Orijen are pretty subtle. I'm having a hard time believing that someone will go from feeding the old Orijen formula, to this, and have organ failures.


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## RawFedDogs (Jun 16, 2008)

That post came from Dogfoodadvisor.com Orijen Dog Food New Recipe Update It was a post made by a user named Shannon on Feb 14, 2011.

This is no more authoritative than someone making a post on Dogfoodchat.


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## practicalfeeder (Feb 12, 2011)

RawFedDogs said:


> That post came from Dogfoodadvisor.com Orijen Dog Food New Recipe Update It was a post made by a user named Shannon on Feb 14, 2011.
> 
> This is no more authoritative than someone making a post on Dogfoodchat.


There is a whole thread on the topic. This is not the only post. I heard this from several sources. It actually doesn't surprise me.


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## lauren43 (Feb 6, 2011)

I hope what I read there doesn't happen to my Tess because if it does my mom will never trust me with dog food ever again. She just started on the 80/10/10 version.


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## PUNKem733 (Jun 12, 2009)

I read all the complaints on dogfoodadvice.com, and I can't understand how changing to more fresh meats, and lowering the protein can cause such drastic changes to dogs who have been fed Orijen for years.


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## funshine (Jan 21, 2010)

practicalfeeder said:


> There is a whole thread on the topic.


A whole thread? Well, it must be the ultimate truth then :rofl:


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## catahoulamom (Sep 23, 2010)

practicalfeeder said:


> There is a whole thread on the topic. This is not the only post. I heard this from several sources. It actually doesn't surprise me.


Here's a source you can quote: I have been selling Champion Pet foods products for 4 years now, and I have many customers that have been on Orijen longer than I have even worked there. We have had the new Orijen formula for over a month now. That means I have sold at least 200 bags of the new Orijen formula. I have not had one complaint from any customers. I know this for sure because not only do I work there 40 hours every week and deal with the majority of the customers that come in the store, but also because I send all of the returned food back to the distributor for credit. And I have not had ONE bag of the new Orijen formula returned. Not one complaint. I don't doubt that some extremely sensitive dogs have maybe had a slightly soft stool on the new food, if anything. I would love to see proof that the new Orijen formula is causing organ failure.


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## PUNKem733 (Jun 12, 2009)

Julie said:


> Here's a source you can quote: I have been selling Champion Pet foods products for 4 years now, and I have many customers that have been on Orijen longer than I have even worked there. We have had the new Orijen formula for over a month now. That means I have sold at least 200 bags of the new Orijen formula. I have not had one complaint from any customers. I know this for sure because not only do I work there 40 hours every week and deal with the majority of the customers that come in the store, but also because I send all of the returned food back to the distributor for credit. And I have not had ONE bag of the new Orijen formula returned. Not one complaint. I don't doubt that some extremely sensitive dogs have maybe had a slightly soft stool on the new food, if anything. I would love to see proof that the new Orijen formula is causing organ failure.


Now that's where you're wrong. I mean come on, there are people online who say The new formula is junk, so it's true, and that's that.

op2:


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## stajbs (Jun 5, 2010)

practicalfeeder,

You are now totally confusing me. In a previous thread started by myself asking folks for input on Petcureans Go Natural and NOW foods you said all Canadian foods were a waste of money, gimmicks, and that there are issues with Orijen's new formula. Then you begin this thread by stating you considered feeding it until you apparently read some review/thread.

You never did respond back to me after commenting in my thread, that is fine, but I'm finding it difficult to make much sense or place a lot of validity in what you are saying. Based on what you said in my thread why would you switch from Dr Tim's, National, Annamaet or some of the others used by Lance Mackay and Martin Buser since they have run the Iditarod and are not idiots.

As I stated in the petcurean thread I am a firm believer in not all dogs doing well on all foods. My guys did well on National and Annamaet, but I have learned there are better food options for my dogs now. When we fed National our dogs looked great and we always got nice comments, but a friend of ours tried it for several months and several of her dogs coats looked terrible and some really gained weight. She had never had that problem before. 

In my book you feed the best quality food you can afford that also works for your dogs period. 

Just what do you feed and what do you feel are good quality foods. In my book if your dogs are doing well I would pass no judgement on what you feed wether it be National, Annamaet, Orijen or Acana or for that matter lets throw in SOJOS as another option.


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## CavePaws (Jan 25, 2011)

stajbs said:


> Dr Tim's, National, Annamaet


...The only formulas I might consider of okay quality out of ALL of the kibble options listed were Annamaet's grain free formulas...And I didn't even really like the looks of those...National and Dr. Tims didn't have any formulas I thought were anything close to suitable. But they're suitable in your eyes Practicalfeeder...for whatever reason that may be. All I can say to you is that our standards of quality food are obviously extremely different.

edit: I had to edit out "consider feeding my dog" because that was a word mishap. I wouldn't consider feeding my dog any of those foods.


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## stajbs (Jun 5, 2010)

In this case I think I am done bantering with practicalfeeder. I see too many inconsistent statements in the different threads where this person has replied. On two occasions I have allowed myself to become upset by this person's posts and it's obviously not worth it. I believe I even saw somewhere comments in one thread, likely the petcurean one where royal canin was suggested as well as Eagle Pack. Then later I believe I saw Royal Canin being bashed by practicalfeeder.

I wish I had known then what I know now or I would likely not have ever fed National, but I was also feeding six-7 sibes at the time and it was affordable and better than some foods. Annamaet grain free has come along since we originally fed it so I would look at that were I not already looking at those "waste of money, gimicky Canadian" brands. Oh, and maybe my eyes deceive me practicalfeeder but did I also see somewhere that you posted about Acana being a quality dog food? Giving you the benefit of the doubt I will assume in this case you forgot Acana is a Champion Pet Food product and based in Canada.

Okay.....breathing deeply now and done with practicalfeeder......is this the infamous claybuster folks??


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## GermanSheperdlover (Nov 15, 2009)

Ry-dick-u-lous!!!! The new formula is outstanding and if someone is bashing the food, I just take it as being another jealous salesman from abady or some other low grade dog food. People use fik-tic-is-names all the time, when slamming. Sure Orijen most likely won't work for a fat lazy couch potato dog and lazy owner, so they should be using the senior formula. My dog has never done good on any fish formulas, EVER!!! So I got a small bag of the new 6 fish just to see what would happen. He is doing great with that mixed in with the adult formula. I just don't buy into this crap about the new formula being bad. LOOK AT IT!!!! There is no dog food kibble made, even in it's league. People knew the new formula was coming and they should have taken the time to CHANGE SEMI SLOWLY...Look at it,,,sure the whole meats well move down some.

Fresh boneless chicken, chicken meal, fresh boneless salmon, turkey meal, herring meal, russet potato, peas, sweet potato, fresh boneless turkey, fresh whole eggs, fresh chicken liver, fresh boneless lake whitefish, fresh boneless walleye, sun-cured alfalfa, pea fiber, chicken fat (preserved with mixed tocopherols), organic kelp, pumpkin, chicory root, carrots, spinach, turnip greens, apples, cranberries, blueberries, licorice root, angelica root, fenugreek, marigold flowers, sweet fennel, peppermint leaf, chamomile, dandelion, summer savory, rosemary, vitamin A, vitamin D3, vitamin E, niacin, thiamine mononitrate, riboflavin, d-calcium pantothenate, pyridoxine, folic acid, biotin, vitamin B12, zinc proteinate, iron proteinate, manganese proteinate, copper proteinate, selenium yeast, Lactobacillus acidophilus, Enterococcus faecium.


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## CavePaws (Jan 25, 2011)

stajbs said:


> In this case I think I am done bantering with practicalfeeder. I see too many inconsistent statements in the different threads where this person has replied. On two occasions I have allowed myself to become upset by this person's posts and it's obviously not worth it. I believe I even saw somewhere comments in one thread, likely the petcurean one where royal canin was suggested as well as Eagle Pack. Then later I believe I saw Royal Canin being bashed by practicalfeeder.
> 
> I wish I had known then what I know now or I would likely not have ever fed National, but I was also feeding six-7 sibes at the time and it was affordable and better than some foods. Annamaet grain free has come along since we originally fed it so I would look at that were I not already looking at those "waste of money, gimicky Canadian" brands. Oh, and maybe my eyes deceive me practicalfeeder but did I also see somewhere that you posted about Acana being a quality dog food? Giving you the benefit of the doubt I will assume in this case you forgot Acana is a Champion Pet Food product and based in Canada.
> 
> Okay.....breathing deeply now and done with practicalfeeder......is this the infamous claybuster folks??


It's not worth arguing with that user, I agree. Thought I'd just post my _thoughts_ on the mentioned dog food brands.

I'd be interested to see your Siberians if you have pics or a pic thread!!! When I was little they and rottweilers were my favorite breeds, I wanted one of either breed forever. They're such beautiful dogs and the one in your avatar is stunning.

 I like the look of the new orijen formula...If I weren't going to feed it to four big hungry dogs and a greedy dachshund I might just buy it. But we're probably switching to raw before that happens.


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## stajbs (Jun 5, 2010)

CavePaws,
Thanks, the pics are of Blaze the boy who has had some issues recently. Somewhere in the forum for photos I had posted some photos of our dogs, but it's probably a few pages back. If I remember correctly they weren't the greatest since I always found it challenging to either be running dogs and taking photos or handling for hubby and having a camera nearby. Plus I am computer challenged so posting pics was difficult for me. I also don't think I had managed to post all the photos of all 7 of our furkids. It is a breed we are totally smitten with. lol I'm sure if you go back through there you should be able to find two posts with some photos.

I am in total agreement with your comments about the dog food, and looking back 12-15 years I wish I had never fed National, like I said had I known then what I know now.... things would have been different. Even before Annamaet came out with the grain free their food had better ingredients, but I avoided the formula with corn. 

Yeah, it was late last night when I finally decided practicalfeeder is not worth my time or energy. If they can't respect others and post consistent comments/thoughts then one has to wonder what their deal really is. lol


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## CavePaws (Jan 25, 2011)

Lol, I've been wondering what practicalfeeder is trying to get out of this myself... Maybe a rise out of everyone because their comments seem to contradict most things people on this forum believe? I don't know, I just know they're not worth anyone's time really. 

Well, honestly, I didn't know _anything _about dog nutrition when I got my first dog, and six dogs later, I'm still trying to get a handle on the real facts so I can feed them the optimum diet within my family's price range. When Indi was a puppy (around 10 wks), we were recommended Puppy Pro-Plan by the vet and guess what? That is what she ate the first couple of weeks I had her...:yuck: before the main trainer at my place of work nearly dipped me in boiling water for feeding her that junk. She would barely even touch the Pro-Plan unless I soaked it in water and sprinkled Solid Gold Seameal over it. Then we fed Natures Recipe to all of the pups&adults, then we were recommended Kirkland because apparently it was a better food for the cost...Then when we realized grains were pretty much killing our dogs we put them on CORE. Now I'm in the same position where if I had known, they would have been on a grain free, high meat diet all along. Lol, it's been a long journey. Poor Puck, our old dachshund terrier mix has seen it all and is finally getting what he truly deserves. 

I'll go look for the thread of yours which has pics then!


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## kevin bradley (Aug 9, 2009)

I haven't followed every post in the thread but I'd summarize with one thought...

Orijen/Champion...unless they are lying and fabricating their entire ingredient list, I've never understood why anyone would argue that they are the ELITE of the kibble world. Tons of meat, impeccable sources for their ingredients(fresh Walleye, Whitefish, Free range chicken, etc...). 

I suppose some Dogs may not do well on it due to it being a pretty robust/rich food and some of the ingredients just might not work for your Dog. But as a general statement, I think its fair to say that Orijen is simply in another category from most Kibbles.


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## stajbs (Jun 5, 2010)

CavePaws...Page 7 under pics there are two threads with some photos of the furkids!! Senior sibes at play and I forget the other thread name.

Way I see it we all have to start somewhere and learn. Being open minded to learning how to best care for our dogs is what it's all about. That's what you have done, that's what I try to do , and it's the best we can be expected to do.


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## CavePaws (Jan 25, 2011)

Awesome! I'll have a look. :]

Kevin - I don't know why either. The ingredients list is pretty impeccable to me.


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## kevin bradley (Aug 9, 2009)

Glad we agree 

Nine inch nails, huh? Man I'm glad I went to college during the time I did. NIN, PearlJam, Nirvana, STP... awesome time.


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## CavePaws (Jan 25, 2011)

I saw STP a few months ago! Got the bass players pick and Preston our lab cracked it in half!!!!!!!! I was SO MAD. He's eaten 100 dollars before too. The pick I was more mad about because I scrambled like a mad woman for that thing and at the end of the concert found it under the foot of the guy next to me. LOL. Fun times.

Saw NIN too a year and a half to two years ago. It was a good concert!

Austin is a good place for concerts.


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## kevin bradley (Aug 9, 2009)

CavePaws said:


> Austin is a good place for concerts.


Indeed. I've heard Austin is a pretty great place, PERIOD 

Let me know if you want to trade places(Michigan)


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## DaneMama (Jun 27, 2008)

You ask what practicalfeeder gets out of threads/posts like this? Attention. You've all noticed their style of posting...vague, contradictory, rude, uninformative, etc. We have seen a few members over the years here with a similar routine, and eventually they cross the line one too many times (we try and stay as open, non controlling as possible) and need to be banned for the greater good of the forum. 

Just be patient and do your best to not let them get under your skin. The best thing to do is not pay that close of attention to them.


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## cast71 (Sep 16, 2010)

kevin bradley said:


> Glad we agree
> 
> Nine inch nails, huh? Man I'm glad I went to college during the time I did. NIN, PearlJam, Nirvana, STP... awesome time.


You forgot THE CULT! :mullet: :rockon:


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## CavePaws (Jan 25, 2011)

Yep, I don't really want to move away from here. I'd have to find a place that's pretty much as hippidy dippidy as it is here, I love the chill atmosphere. There are lots of opportunities to see really great concerts. The only thing I've never really disliked are the hot summers. They're pretty terrible at times.

Danemama - Agreed. In the years I've participated on forums there's almost always someone who runs about the boards drying to dig their way under people's skin. I'll be good to ignore most of what is being said, as I pointed out, people who insult others during a debate shows insecurity and perhaps even doubt in the validity of their knowledge.


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## Dana (Oct 27, 2009)

:sad:
I wish Orijen would make a food for dogs with allergies/sensitive stomachs. One with their high quality and high meat content, but limited number of ingredients (and a novel meat). Sigh.


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## GermanSheperdlover (Nov 15, 2009)

practicalfeeder said:


> "I hope Champion PetFoods takes serious action regarding the stream of negative reactions taking place as a possible result of their new formula. I considered switching my dog over to Orijen until I read all of the negative reviews (from other sites too). I mean coincidental vomiting, loose stool, organ failure, and loss of appetite?? I’m not paying that price for this food unless some of these issues are addressed. I wish they still had the old formula. I see hardly anything but fabulous reviews for the old formula"
> 
> 
> From another website.


Let me ask you this, did this person on another site have to sign in???? Even if they did, all they have to do is clear cookies and sign in with another name.

""90% of people who bash Orijen work for other dog food companies."" People who say their dogs vomit or have explosive diarrhea after eating Orijen sure aren't pulling the wool over my eyes and are just flat out lying. If a dog gets sick after eating Orijen there is something seriously wrong with that dog.

I would bet just about anything this post was made by someone who works for another dog food company and most likely abady,


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## wags (Jan 31, 2009)

I just went to the mom and pop store I go to one of 4 I now have around me. I had to get more wet food anyway while I was there since I chit chat with the owners I nonchalantly asked about if they have had any complaints with the new Orijen formula. I even asked any returns anyone say their dog was getting sick! He looked (its a man and his wife they have a baby who run the place Just to clarify Oh and its Called Fetch) anywho~~~ after my drilling questions The owner said Ummm Exactly he didn't know what I was talking about he said no one has ever returned a bag nor has he had any complaints about this food. He actually has had people compliment the food and said the people who complimented it loved the new food. So This is word of mouth and a lot of folk I know in my area do visit this place so I don't think for a small business he would want to jeopardize that at all. He's not going to lie and tell me that he has never had anyone return it and ruin the business. He has never heard any complaints and has never had a return that is that! So whatever BS anyone is starting on the Internet they can be causing law suits for false statements. So far this is one place now next week I will go to Raining cats and dogs and do the same scenario and see what they have to say!


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## meggels (May 30, 2010)

Ooooh Austin! That's on my list of places I think I'd like to live. I dont think I could handle the summers though  But it seems like an amazing place.


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## CavePaws (Jan 25, 2011)

meggels, in my other post I meant to say the only thing I dislike are the summers. They are pretty dreadful if you don't go swimming a lot or hide inside in the air conditioning - which I do when I'm not swimming lol. It's a really fun place. We're getting a Schlitterbahn water park built in the next two years here. That should ease the pain of the summers quite a bit. :biggrin:


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## Canadian In Texas (Feb 16, 2011)

Hi there I am new hear and I was really hoping that I was going to get some kind of clarity on what to feed my new dogs. I am more confused then ever. I have been on a couple of forums that have bashed Orijens new formula. So many horror stories that I took my 2 bags back to the store.

I am extremely hypersensitive because in a period of 3 months I lost 2 dogs one to renal failure and one to cancer. Both illnesses came out of the blue and within four weeks of diagnosis my dogs were dead.

I just recently got from rescue a golden retriever puppy and a 6 y/o golden retriever. I have been feeding the puppy what he came with and I have been feeding the other golden Natural Balance LID. Now after researching NB I see it is not the best.

I researched Champion Foods liked the company and went from there. Only now I obviously freaked and took the bags back so now I feel like I am back to square one.

I panic about the high protein especially since I lost a dog to renal failure. I do not have any medical history on the 6 y/o but she has checked out fine with the vet. The only issue she has is yeast problems in the ears.

The puppy is going to get big so do I need the large breed puppy is it good to be grain free for puppy?

The puppy had looser stools on the orijen but he was only on it a couple of days and it was still mixed in with his old kibble.

I am considering going to Acana since it is the same company with a little lower protein. The problem is I cannot find acana locally so I would need to order online.


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## CavePaws (Jan 25, 2011)

If you're scared about the new Orijen formula try Acana. 
:]

They're also made from Champion and from what I've heard around here it's a really great food. I hope you enjoy your puppy, sounds like you're a good caring owner.


edit: Can you not ask the store you buy Orijen from to order in Acana? Some stores will do it, some say they need to have a certain number of requests for the food in order to start ordering it.


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## PUNKem733 (Jun 12, 2009)

Canadian In Texas said:


> The puppy had looser stools on the orijen but he was only on it a couple of days and it was still mixed in with his old kibble.



Well there's a big problem right there. You only gave it a couple of days. Also as I always say, I feed my 19 pound, 15 year old dog the foods with the highest protein in them, and he does fantastic.


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## Jacksons Mom (Jun 13, 2010)

First, I'm glad that ridiculous poster was banned.

Second, I must say that I've noticed Jackson having not as good stools (they are soft, and sometimes runny once a day) since the new bag of Orijen Regional Red he's been eating. He hasn't eaten the Regional Red in about 2 months as our store was out of it until last week. 

It's only been about a week though that he's been on it (I'm definitely not over-feeding) so I'm going to finish the whole bag out and see how it goes... I just find it odd since he always did SO well on Orijen RR and it's by far his favorite kibble (he just loves to eat it up, even without wet food, which never happens). So I hope his system gets used to, though he's never had problems switching between kibbles quickly, we never do transitions. I really love love Orijen and the company and my dog loves it too, so I will see what he's like by the end of the bag.


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## RCTRIPLEFRESH5 (Feb 11, 2010)

PUNKem733 said:


> Now that's where you're wrong. I mean come on, there are people online who say The new formula is junk, so it's true, and that's that.
> 
> op2:


i just noticed your dog has brown spots


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## PUNKem733 (Jun 12, 2009)

RCTRIPLEFRESH5 said:


> i just noticed your dog has brown spots


That he does.


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## doggiedad (Jan 23, 2011)

i feed my dog cooked boneless and skinless chicken
breast. sometimes i'll pressure cook two (2) whole
chickens. when i pressure cook the whole chicken
i feed all of it to my dog. the bones pulverize. you can
rub the bones between your fingers and they break
completely down. i use the pressure cooked chicken
as an additive to his kibble. 2 pressure cooked chickens
can make several quarts. i keep one (1) quart in
the refrigerator and several in the freezer.



wags said:


> I was also feeding my dog cooked chicken and the cooked bones (which is a big no~no)at the time(I'm just saying this as a maybe you know just saying!!! not menaing its true)


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## wags (Jan 31, 2009)

doggiedad said:


> i feed my dog cooked boneless and skinless chicken
> breast. sometimes i'll pressure cook two (2) whole
> chickens. when i pressure cook the whole chicken
> i feed all of it to my dog. the bones pulverize. you can
> ...


That's different than what I was saying! I was talking about someone who puts the chicken in the oven or whatever then just feeds it to the dogs or even the dog who picks the bones out of the garbage being cooked like the carcass! I was trying to make a point. Not meaning literally!:wink:


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## GermanSheperdlover (Nov 15, 2009)

My dog is on his second week on the new formula and he is doing GREAT!!!!! Just a bunch of B.S. when people say it isn't as good as the old formula, I have found it to be better, especially the 6 fish!!


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## Dana (Oct 27, 2009)

Canadian In Texas said:


> Hi there I am new hear and I was really hoping that I was going to get some kind of clarity on what to feed my new dogs. I am more confused then ever. I have been on a couple of forums that have bashed Orijens new formula. So many horror stories that I took my 2 bags back to the store.
> 
> I am extremely hypersensitive because in a period of 3 months I lost 2 dogs one to renal failure and one to cancer. Both illnesses came out of the blue and within four weeks of diagnosis my dogs were dead.
> 
> ...


Canadian in Texas - don't know where in Texas, but if you're in the Dallas area.... I found Acana at an organic nursery in Garland, TX - it's called Rohde's. They just recently started carrying it!


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## Dana (Oct 27, 2009)

In addition to Acana, Rohde's also carries Orijen and Petcurean.


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## JHC1951 (Jul 14, 2011)

*To: "Jackson's Mom"*



Jacksons Mom said:


> First, I'm glad that ridiculous poster was banned.
> 
> Second, I must say that I've noticed Jackson having not as good stools (they are soft, and sometimes runny once a day) since the new bag of Orijen Regional Red he's been eating. He hasn't eaten the Regional Red in about 2 months as our store was out of it until last week.
> 
> It's only been about a week though that he's been on it (I'm definitely not over-feeding) so I'm going to finish the whole bag out and see how it goes... I just find it odd since he always did SO well on Orijen RR and it's by far his favorite kibble (he just loves to eat it up, even without wet food, which never happens). So I hope his system gets used to, though he's never had problems switching between kibbles quickly, we never do transitions. I really love love Orijen and the company and my dog loves it too, so I will see what he's like by the end of the bag.



I see you are feeding your Yorkie one of the reformulated Orijen foods. We have been feeding our Yorkie (Windsor) the Orijen senior variety for close to a year. We are using the senior variety, even though Windsor is only 5, because it was a little lower in protein and he had been diagnosed with some high liver enzyemes when he was 2. We have had absolutely no problems, that is until we got our first bag of the new formulation. About a third of the way thru the lastest bag Windsor's stools were beginning to get soft. With half the bag gone they were getting runny. A week later he was having some serious diarrhea problems, RIght now we have him on a bland diet trying to get his digestion normal again. BTW, Windsor's appetite seemed to be greater on the reformulation. He even gained a lb. (7.5 went to 8.5) in tha past 6 months.

Did Jackson ever get used to the reformulated Orijen or were you forced to find another food? Our vet suggested we back off on the protein content to something in the mid to upper 20's. I'd be interested in hearing your update.

Regards,
Windsor's Dad


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## PDXdogmom (Jun 30, 2010)

JHC1951 said:


> I see you are feeding your Yorkie one of the reformulated Orijen foods. We have been feeding our Yorkie (Windsor) the Orijen senior variety for close to a year. We are using the senior variety, even though Windsor is only 5, because it was a little lower in protein and he had been diagnosed with some high liver enzyemes when he was 2. We have had absolutely no problems, that is until we got our first bag of the new formulation. About a third of the way thru the lastest bag Windsor's stools were beginning to get soft. With half the bag gone they were getting runny. A week later he was having some serious diarrhea problems, RIght now we have him on a bland diet trying to get his digestion normal again. BTW, Windsor's appetite seemed to be greater on the reformulation. He even gained a lb. (7.5 went to 8.5) in tha past 6 months.
> 
> Did Jackson ever get used to the reformulated Orijen or were you forced to find another food? Our vet suggested we back off on the protein content to something in the mid to upper 20's. I'd be interested in hearing your update.
> 
> ...


I'm not the poster that you're addressing your question to, but thought I'd share my experience.

My 4 year old lab was fed Orijen Large Breed Puppy successfully until 7 months when we switched to Orijen Adult. We stuck with that for about another 6 months when I began some rotational feeding of other brands. I actually stopped feeding Orijen for over a year; then just tried the new adult formulation about 6 months ago. My lab did not do well on it. I'm very aware of how specific of amounts to feed with Orijen to not develop soft stools; but after 5 weeks I abandoned it. My lab has transitioned back and forth to other formulas and brands just fine.

I tried Champion's more moderate line of Acana and my dog did much better on that. However, over time I've become less enchanted with the extreme number of fruits, vegetables, and botanicals that Champion uses in the Orijen and Acana formulas. They've become much more complicated formulas than when the foods first came out. 

For the first time in a very long time, I'm feeding a food with grain (millet and brown rice) and no rendered meals: Canine Caviar Chicken and Pearl Millet Chicken And Pearl Millet Adult. I up the protein slightly with some egg or a handful of freshly cooked meat and am very pleased. I actually believe my dog is getting more value from the dehydrated hormone/antibiotic free chicken and millet and brown rice; than from a grain-free formula that contains 3 different rendered "meals" and potato.

I've also started home-cooking the dinner meal on most nights; but if I can't, I feed perfectly fine feeding the CC Chicken and Pearl Millet.


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## Porphyria (Jul 13, 2011)

JHC1951 said:


> We are using the senior variety, even though Windsor is only 5, because it was a little lower in protein and he had been diagnosed with some high liver enzyemes when he was 2.


I would love to know more about your dog's diet and the liver enzyme issue. Do you/your vet believe that the high protein levels in Orijen are a contributing factor? Have you tried any other foods, and if so, did you have a blood test to see how the different food impacted the high liver enzymes?



I ask because my dog tested for high ALT while on Orijen. I thought perhaps it had something to do with protein, since I'd read extremely high protein diets in humans can impact the liver. I switched him to Acana and retested and they were still high, but I wasn't totally convinced it wasn't the food because Acana still has a much higher protein percentage than your average food. The vet ran a bile acid test to make sure there was no liver shunt or other serious issue, and the bile acid test, thankfully, came back normal. She suggested waiting six months and retesting the ALT, just so we can keep an eye on it and make sure it's not getting too high. About that time, I spoke to another owner of the same breed who had had very similar issues (though with Wellness Core rather than Orijen), and her dog's ALT did go down to normal levels after she switched to a lower protein (Wellness Super5 Mix) food. I decided to switch Zephyr to a low-moderate protein food to see if it had any impact on his ALT levels. I have been feeding him Fromm Whitefish and Potato for a few months and his blood test is scheduled for Monday. I will be very interested to see what happens. 

There's not a lot of info out there about high protein kibble and its effects on liver enzymes, but I think it is something worth discussing and learning about if there does seem to be a correlation. So often super high protein foods are recommended by websites like dogfoodanlysis.com, so I think people need to know if there is in fact a connection between liver enzymes and high protein. Any info you have would be greatly appreciated!


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## RawFedDogs (Jun 16, 2008)

When you lower protein you automatically raise the level of carbs. Raising carb levels is never a good thing. Carbs are not good for dogs. Their bodies are not equipped to properly digest them. I haven't heard anything about protein affecting liver.


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## PDXdogmom (Jun 30, 2010)

RawFedDogs said:


> When you lower protein you automatically raise the level of carbs. Raising carb levels is never a good thing. Carbs are not good for dogs. Their bodies are not equipped to properly digest them. I haven't heard anything about protein affecting liver.


In a kibble diet the lower the protein and fat; the higher the carbs of course. I read a study once and wish I had bookmarked it. I can't recall all the specifics, but the findings seemed to indicate that the health of the dogs did not seem to differ between varying percentages of carb if the diet hit a carb level of no more than 30%. For instance, apparently, a 22% carb diet didn't reflect differently than a 30% carb diet.

Dogs have been opportunistic in their eating for much of history. I think most agree that meat is the natural mainstay of a dog's diet. Where lot's of us diverge is in the carb consumption. I do not fall into the camp that believes all carbs are bad for all dogs. In fact, I've seen some dogs do less well with an extreme absence of carbs. Just like with humans, there are variations on what diet each of us will thrive on.


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## RawFedDogs (Jun 16, 2008)

You can't compare humans and dogs they way you are. For a Kibble diet to have as few as 30% carbs, there must be a LOT of protein. IT would take something like a 35% or 40% protein level to get carbs as low as 30%. Many of the cheaper foods have over 50% carbs. For example Orijen adult dog food has 38% protein, 17% fat, 10% moisture, they don't say but probably around 3% ash. That forumla would have around 32% carbs. Thats about as low as any kibble gets. Most are A LOT higher.

My dogs haven't had ANY carbs in 9 years. Thor hasn't had any since he was 12 weeks old and he is 6yo now. Neither are showing dietary deficiency. Both are relatavely energitic taking into consideration Abby's age (11yo). We don't know how long dogs have been eating carbs. Anything you see that goes back more than about 100 years is nothing but speculation. There is nothing in a dog's body that indicates he has any need for carbs. There is nothing that even says they can digest them.


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## Porphyria (Jul 13, 2011)

RawFedDogs said:


> There is nothing in a dog's body that indicates he has any need for carbs. There is nothing that even says they can digest them.


Humans have amylase, the primary enzyme responsible for breaking down carbohydrates, in their saliva. Amylase is not present in dog saliva, but it is present in the small intestine, so I don't see why a dog would be unable to break down and digest complex carbohydrates.


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## PDXdogmom (Jun 30, 2010)

RawFedDogs said:


> You can't compare humans and dogs they way you are. For a Kibble diet to have as few as 30% carbs, there must be a LOT of protein. IT would take something like a 35% or 40% protein level to get carbs as low as 30%. Many of the cheaper foods have over 50% carbs. For example *Orijen adult dog* food has 38% protein, 17% fat, 10% moisture, *they don't say but probably around 3% ash. That forumla would have around 32% carbs.* Thats about as low as any kibble gets. Most are A LOT higher.
> 
> My dogs haven't had ANY carbs in 9 years. Thor hasn't had any since he was 12 weeks old and he is 6yo now. Neither are showing dietary deficiency. Both are relatavely energitic taking into consideration Abby's age (11yo). We don't know how long dogs have been eating carbs. Anything you see that goes back more than about 100 years is nothing but speculation. There is nothing in a dog's body that indicates he has any need for carbs. There is nothing that even says they can digest them.


Actually the Orijen web site does say. They list ash as 7.5% They list carbohydrates as 25%.


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## PDXdogmom (Jun 30, 2010)

Porphyria said:


> Humans have amylase, the primary enzyme responsible for breaking down carbohydrates, in their saliva. Amylase is not present in dog saliva, but it is present in the small intestine, so I don't see why a dog would be unable to break down and digest complex carbohydrates.


Yes, it's my understanding also that dogs produce amylase in the pancreas. Here is a link that references it: Amylase


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## Porphyria (Jul 13, 2011)

I just heard back from the vet, and as I suspected, Zephyr's ALT levels have gone down significantly, and are now in the normal range. I know that correlation does not necessarily mean causation, but since this is not the only instance I've heard of in which dogs fed a high protein kibble had elevated ALT only to have ALT drop after switching to a lower protein food, I do suspect there must be some sort of link. I came across this on the dog food project website:



> The liver needs water to process protein and as a medium to carry waste products to the kidneys, where they are filtered out and most of the water is reabsorbed. The less concentrated the waste products in this primary filtrate are, the easier it is for the kidneys to do their filtering work - that's why it is unhealthy to feed dry food only and so critical that dogs eating mostly or exclusively dry food and dogs with liver disease get lots of extra water. Dogs who eat mostly canned food or a home prepared diet automatically take in more moisture and do not need to compensate as much by drinking. Contrary to what many people think and pet food companies claim, dogs (and cats) do not know instinctively how much extra water they have to drink to make up for what is lacking in the dry food. This is why I so highly recommend that people always add water to the kibble at feeding time.


Maybe the high protein percentage coupled with the dryness of kibble puts more stress on the liver?


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## PDXdogmom (Jun 30, 2010)

Porphyria, I'm glad Zephyr's ALT levels have improved. You mentioned in an earlier post that you're feeding your dog Fromm's Whitefish and potato (protein 23%/fat 11%)?. Are you happy with it in other ways also (coat, skin, muscle tone, etc.) and plan to stick with it? Or, are you tempted to try a little higher protein and fat but still in a very moderate range?

I've had one of my dogs on Canine Caviar Chicken and Pearl Millet Adult for about a month. It is the first kibble I've fed with grains in the past two years and the lowest protein/fat at 26%/16%. I've noticed she is drinking less water; but that may also be because I've started feeding home-cooked on most nights. I've been adding some warm water to kibble just before serving for the past few years.


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## Porphyria (Jul 13, 2011)

PDXdogmom said:


> Porphyria, I'm glad Zephyr's ALT levels have improved. You mentioned in an earlier post that you're feeding your dog Fromm's Whitefish and potato (protein 23%/fat 11%)?. Are you happy with it in other ways also (coat, skin, muscle tone, etc.) and plan to stick with it? Or, are you tempted to try a little higher protein and fat but still in a very moderate range?
> 
> I've had one of my dogs on Canine Caviar Chicken and Pearl Millet Adult for about a month. It is the first kibble I've fed with grains in the past two years and the lowest protein/fat at 26%/16%. I've noticed she is drinking less water; but that may also be because I've started feeding home-cooked on most nights. I've been adding some warm water to kibble just before serving for the past few years.


Thank you, it's definitely a relief! The Whitefish and Potato has worked really well for him overall. He had dry skin/coat when he was on raw, and he had digestive issues on raw and several different kinds of kibble. It was a lot of trial and error to find something that worked for him. Now his fur is so sleek and soft, and all of the digestive problems are gone. The only issue I have is that I'm not sure it's filling enough. He always cries for dinner well before it's time for him to eat, and he licks his bowl clean after every meal. He is definitely food motivated, so perhaps he just really loves the taste of it; I know of other sighthounds that act the same way regardless of what their food is. But I think if I try a food with a little more protein and fat, it might help him feel more full (if that is indeed what's going on and he's not just being a brat!). I've actually been reading a lot about rotation diets and I've decided to try it out. For now I'll be sticking with various formulas in the Fromm Four Star line since he's had so much success with his current food, but I may try out other brands in the future. All of their grain inclusive foods except the Whitefish are around 25% protein and 15% fat, so it's more than what he's getting now, but still moderate. I've already started transitioning him to Fromm Chicken A La Veg, so I'll see how it goes. I may or may not incorporate their grain free Surf and Turf; it sounds great and I'm all for as much variety as possible, but it's got more protein and fat than their grain-inclusive formulas, so I'm a little hesitant. 

I don't think I've seen Canine Caviar kibble in any of the stores around here, just some of their canned foods. But it sounds good, and maybe something I could work into his diet in the future!


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

CavePaws said:


> Awesome! I'll have a look. :]
> 
> Kevin - I don't know why either. The ingredients list is pretty impeccable to me.



i looked at the new formula...if i were feeding kibble and i did at one time...i'd feed it. the new formula looks lovely.


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## PDXdogmom (Jun 30, 2010)

magicre said:


> i looked at the new formula...if i were feeding kibble and i did at one time...i'd feed it. the new formula looks lovely.


Somewhat surprised to see you saying that. Some of your posts have been rather negative on including sweet potato, carrots, whitefish and apples in a dog's diet.


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## Scarlett_O' (May 19, 2011)

magicre said:


> i looked at the new formula...if i were feeding kibble and i did at one time...i'd feed it. the new formula looks lovely.


TOTALLY agree!! For kibble the new formula takes the cake!!


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

PDXdogmom said:


> Somewhat surprised to see you saying that. Some of your posts have been rather negative on including sweet potato, carrots, whitefish and apples in a dog's diet.


kibble is different from raw and raw is different from home cooking....things have to change when you feed kibble and certain things can't be helped...

it's a good product.....whilst i'm not big on giving sweet potatoe and veggies and fruits...they do act as binders...they are processed differently....

but there was a time when i was a kibble feeder....and then i went to home cooking and now raw...i've just been researching for five or six years now....and feelings change.

certainly it's a better alternative than natural choice....was in its day when it was considered a premium food.

all in all, i'm all about the processing and i'm very much against it for humans and dogs...but this is not the discussion thread to have that debate....

so if i were a kibble feeder, it would be either orijen or ziwipeak.


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## JHC1951 (Jul 14, 2011)

Porphyria said:


> I just heard back from the vet, and as I suspected, Zephyr's ALT levels have gone down significantly, and are now in the normal range. I know that correlation does not necessarily mean causation, but since this is not the only instance I've heard of in which dogs fed a high protein kibble had elevated ALT only to have ALT drop after switching to a lower protein food, I do suspect there must be some sort of link. I came across this on the dog food project website:
> 
> Maybe the high protein percentage coupled with the dryness of kibble puts more stress on the liver?


 
Porphyria,

Good to hear the ALT numbers are normal again. The quote you provided regarding water intake was quite interesting. I noticed Windsor was drinking quite a bit more water (maybe 25-40% more) once he started on the higher protein formula. Also when he developed the diarrhea it reaked of ammonia, Sounds like the liver and kidneys were working overtime to eliminate the excess. 

Right now he is on a mix of about 50% cooked chicken/rice and about 50% crushed kibble. I have to crush the kibble and mix it thoroughly to keep him from picking it out. I've been lightly feeding him twice a day but leaving a bowl of straight kibble out while I'm at work. So far he has been holding out for the mix and doesn't touch the straight stuff. Nothing like the stubborness of a Yorkie!!


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## Porphyria (Jul 13, 2011)

Wow, the ammonia smell does not sound like a good sign! Has Windsor had any bloodwork done since you started incorporating home cooked into his diet? Is the kibble you feed still Orijen? 

Zephyr never seems to drink much water, regardless of what food he's on, which is why I've started adding canned into his diet. I may also start adding water to his kibble-only meals.

I don't blame Windsor for going for the good stuff!


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## PDXdogmom (Jun 30, 2010)

magicre said:


> kibble is different from raw and raw is different from home cooking....things have to change when you feed kibble and certain things can't be helped...
> 
> it's a good product.....whilst i'm not big on giving sweet potatoe and veggies and fruits...they do act as binders...they are processed differently....
> 
> ...


In all likelihood, other than the russet potato, peas and sweet potato, the veggies and fruits included in the Orijen are there for marketing purposes. It makes a lovely sounding ingredient list to many consumers. Typically the carbs listed before the first fat serve as the binding agents required for processing kibble.

INGREDIENTS - Adult Orijen
Fresh boneless chicken*, chicken meal, fresh boneless salmon*, turkey meal, herring meal, russet potato, peas, sweet potato, fresh boneless turkey*, fresh whole eggs*, fresh chicken liver*, fresh boneless lake whitefish*, fresh boneless walleye*, sun-cured alfalfa, pea fiber, chicken fat (preserved with mixed tocopherols), organic kelp, pumpkin, chicory root, carrots, spinach, turnip greens, apples, cranberries, blueberries, licorice root, angelica root, fenugreek, marigold flowers, sweet fennel, peppermint leaf, chamomile, dandelion, summer savory, rosemary, vitamin A, vitamin D3, vitamin E, niacin, thiamine mononitrate, riboflavin, d-calcium pantothenate, pyridoxine, folic acid, biotin, vitamin B12, zinc proteinate, iron proteinate, manganese proteinate, copper proteinate, selenium yeast, Lactobacillus acidophilus, Enterococcus faecium.

Like you, I've been researching and re-evaluating what to feed my dogs for the past five years. Although I've done a lot of rotational feeding of grain-free higher protein kibbles, I've become less enamored with the mega-long ingredient lists that so many of them have - including Orijen, Go Natural Grain-free Endurance, Fromm Surf & Turf and others. Respectively, they list 34, 29, 32 different ingredients not even including all the vitamins/minerals or pro/prebiotics. 

That's not to say that the Orijen Adult isn't a product with a lot of meat content that may work well for a lot of dogs. But Orijen's inclusion of 6 different meat proteins (3 rendered meals) and a bucket load of various fruits and vegetables doesn't necessarily stack up better than a kibble like Canine Caviar Chicken and Pearl Millet with half the ingredients, no rendered meals, and millet and brown rice (not potatoes) as binders.

All in all, I have to say that for those who feed all kibble or maybe half kibble, as I do, there are a wealth of choices. That makes it much easier than a couple of decades ago to find a kibble that fits varying priorities of consumers.


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

PDXdogmom said:


> In all likelihood, other than the russet potato, peas and sweet potato, the veggies and fruits included in the Orijen are there for marketing purposes. It makes a lovely sounding ingredient list to many consumers. Typically the carbs listed before the first fat serve as the binding agents required for processing kibble.
> 
> INGREDIENTS - Adult Orijen
> Fresh boneless chicken*, chicken meal, fresh boneless salmon*, turkey meal, herring meal, russet potato, peas, sweet potato, fresh boneless turkey*, fresh whole eggs*, fresh chicken liver*, fresh boneless lake whitefish*, fresh boneless walleye*, sun-cured alfalfa, pea fiber, chicken fat (preserved with mixed tocopherols), organic kelp, pumpkin, chicory root, carrots, spinach, turnip greens, apples, cranberries, blueberries, licorice root, angelica root, fenugreek, marigold flowers, sweet fennel, peppermint leaf, chamomile, dandelion, summer savory, rosemary, vitamin A, vitamin D3, vitamin E, niacin, thiamine mononitrate, riboflavin, d-calcium pantothenate, pyridoxine, folic acid, biotin, vitamin B12, zinc proteinate, iron proteinate, manganese proteinate, copper proteinate, selenium yeast, Lactobacillus acidophilus, Enterococcus faecium.
> ...


i agree with you....and the reason i finally stopped feeding kibble was because i couldn't find one that pleased me. LOL

and so i said i can control my dogs' food and i home cooked..i kind of backed into raw...and no, i'm not talking about raw in this thread...when i home cooked, i didn't use just one protein.

that orijen is also using more than one protein is fine with me. 

i just think there are some quality companies or quality ingredients in kibble, marketing aside....and my dog would do okay....


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