# Should a 12 lb Non Working Show Dog Be On Orijen or EVO?



## Weten2 (Jan 2, 2010)

We have a Havanese champion we are specializing along with two other Havanese we are switching over to Orijen. I often see the reference on this site and others that this food is good for the "Active Working Dog". So is it not ideal for a small 10-12 lb. Havanese? Is there a grainless lower protein food? I know Core is around 34% unlike 40-42% with EVO and Orijen.


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## Unosmom (May 3, 2009)

You could try Acana provincial, its made by Champion (same as Orijen) and is identical to it except that its lower protein (around 33-34%)


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## Weten2 (Jan 2, 2010)

I appreciate the recommendation. However, do you think the lower protein is better for the small non working dog; or does it depend on the particular dog?


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## Unosmom (May 3, 2009)

It really depends on your dogs individual metabolism, it doesent have to be a working dog to eat high protein, some dogs are very active and/or have high metabolism and do just fine on it. 
One thing for sure is that you'll be feeding much less then of regular kibble. Theres always a risk of a dog gaining weight on this food because theyre not burning off all the calories, its definitely worth a try, but make sure to weigh your dog at least once a week to make sure he's not packing on lbs, if thats the case reduce the ammount fed.

I'm kind of in a situtation right now because I have very active dog, we run weekly and go on 5-8 mile hikes on the weekends. I figured high protein would be ideal for him, but he always seems to put on 2-3 lbs when I switch to this food. Right now he's on Horizon Legacy which is 40% protein and even though I drastically reduced the ammount (1/2 cup with couple tbsp of canned twice a day), he still put on some weight. Even though he's 67 lbs. 
I had his thyroid tested and came back negative for hypothyroidism, he just has a lousy metabolism and I have to carefully watch how much he eats. 

This month were doing raw (I rotate), so he gets 20 oz a day which seems to be a good ammount for him. 

So yeah, long story short, each dog is an individual, give it a try, its good quality food but may not be for every dog.


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## harrkim120 (Feb 2, 2010)

Unosmom said:


> This month were doing raw (I rotate), so he gets 20 oz a day which seems to be a good ammount for him.


:biggrin: I was wondering if this was possible!!! lol How often do you rotate? And do you do the model prey raw diet or BARF diet or something else?


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## Unosmom (May 3, 2009)

I do about a month of kibble, then a month of raw, it helps to cut back on the costs since its hard to find anything under $1 per lb, except chicken. 
I guess it would be considered prey model, but I dont feed whole animals with skin and hair (major ick factor for me), just regular store bought cuts (thighs, wings, organs, etc)


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## harrkim120 (Feb 2, 2010)

How do you transition them from month to month? Do you do it slowly over a few days? And do they have any obvious reaction from one to the other? 

Sorry for asking so many questions...I'm a very curious person. lol


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## Unosmom (May 3, 2009)

Lol.. n.p

I use this enzyme supplement called prozyme and mix it in with the raw and do couple days of kibble in the morning/raw in the evening and then go straight to raw after 3rd day. 

There has been couple times when he had constipation after switching, so I'm concerned whether its too much stress for his kidneys to having to adjust back and forth, I'm considering going all raw at this point, but I need to find maybe some chinese/mexican stores to get different meat sources aside from chicken/beef/pork. 
It also signed up for a weekly grocery store circular to make sure I know of all the specials going on right now. Like yesterday I picked up chicken thighs for $.47 lb. 
If I feel like I can manage the costs of feeding raw full time, then I'll probably switch over.


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## jdatwood (Apr 13, 2009)

Unosmom said:


> If I feel like I can manage the costs of feeding raw full time, then I'll probably switch over.


I'd be really surprised if PMR ended up costing you more than kibble


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## Unosmom (May 3, 2009)

Well considering that its high protein kibble, he eats very little of it, which costs me about $30 a month to feed it, the last time I got the meat, spending $30, which lasted 2 weeks. So yeah, I need to do some more searching and see if I can manage the costs. I have a bit of a weak stomach and would not be able to get fresh kill and skin it myself, even though it would cost me less.


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## jdatwood (Apr 13, 2009)

Don't wanna step on anyone's toes in the kibble forum so if you want to talk more we should head over to raw :wink:


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## Jordan S. (Feb 2, 2010)

Weten2 said:


> We have a Havanese champion we are specializing along with two other Havanese we are switching over to Orijen. I often see the reference on this site and others that this food is good for the "Active Working Dog". So is it not ideal for a small 10-12 lb. Havanese? Is there a grainless lower protein food? I know Core is around 34% unlike 40-42% with EVO and Orijen.


Chocolate is not a working dog, and gets walked 3 times a week, and is 10 years old and somehow thrives on the EVO food. It's all about portion sizes in my opinion. He's 25 lbs and gets around 1/2 cup a day of EVO or any other food with over 38% protein and when feeding CORE we give him around 3/4 cup a day.

Not to take away from CORE though. We love their Ocean formula both dry and especially canned .


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## Jordan S. (Feb 2, 2010)

jdatwood said:


> I'd be really surprised if PMR ended up costing you more than kibble


Not really. if you live in pennsyvania but not if you live in a place like Los Angeles where there are no butchers or even walmarts in sight. just grocery stores.


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## DaneMama (Jun 27, 2008)

Jordan S. said:


> Not really. if you live in pennsyvania but not if you live in a place like Los Angeles where there are no butchers or even walmarts in sight. just grocery stores.


Here's a list of wholesale meat distributing companies that are located in LA. Give them all a call and see if they will sell to you in bulk as a private party. We get most of our meat in bulk from a local meat distributor here. We don't pay no more than $1 per pound for our meat from them, average of about $.60 per pound.

Meat Wholesale Los Angeles CA | Meat Suppliers Los Angeles

Here is a list of Walmart locations around the city of LA

http://www.walmart.com/storeLocator/ca_storefinder_results.do?sfsearch_zip=&sfsearch_city=Los+Angeles&sfsearch_state=CA&x=29&y=4&serviceName=ALL&sfatt=ALL&rx_title=&rx_dest=/index.gsp

Oh, I almost forgot about ethnic markets :wink:

http://maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&rlz=1C1GGLS_enUS328US328&um=1&ie=UTF-8&q=ethnic+markets+los+angeles&fb=1&gl=us&hq=ethnic+markets&hnear=los+angeles&view=text&ei=rM5wS8r8B4ikngei_Z2WCw&sa=X&oi=local_group&ct=more-results&resnum=1&ved=0CBIQtQMwAA

You can also post up on craigslist offering to clean out anyone's freezer of freezer burned meat that they are just planning on throwing away, we have gotten close to 4-500 pounds of free meat this way in the last 6 months or so!


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## harrkim120 (Feb 2, 2010)

danemama08 said:


> You can also post up on craigslist offering to clean out anyone's freezer of freezer burned meat that they are just planning on throwing away, we have gotten close to 4-500 pounds of free meat this way in the last 6 months or so!


Freezer burn doesn't effect the nutritional content or something of the sort?


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## DaneMama (Jun 27, 2008)

harrkim120 said:


> Freezer burn doesn't effect the nutritional content or something of the sort?


Freezer burned meat is actually harmless for anyone to eat. The reason why we don't typically eat freezer burned meat is because it's dried out and doesn't taste good! But dogs still see it as tasty meat and don't give a second thought about it :wink: :biggrin:


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## Pet Food Dude (Feb 10, 2010)

The Orijen is much lower in Calories compared to the EVO and a vast majority of all the other high protein diets out there. 
Orijen (all formulas): 250 kcal/cup
EVO Small Bites: 537 kcal/cup
Horizon Legacy :460kcal/cup

A high protein and high fat content diet is great for all dogs but you have to watch out for the Calories. Most all of the Premium All Natural Foods are well over 330 Calories per cup and your dog could pick up some added lbs unless they are v-e-r-y active to burn off those calories.


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## Pet Food Dude (Feb 10, 2010)

The Acana Grain Free kibbles are also only 250 Calories per cup! Core, Horizon, Instinct, Blue Wilderness, Artemis and Taste Of The Wild are all excellent dry kibble but are high in Calories.


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## Unosmom (May 3, 2009)

I noticed that horizon legacy has lowered their protein from 40% to 34%, so now its 420 kcal/cup

Blue Buffalo Wilderness has also gone from 42% to 34%
I wonder is it because theyre trying to cut back the costs by using less meat or maybe because most dogs do not do well on high protein diets which can lead to myriad of digestive issues. 

I'm pretty happy with acana provincial and Uno even likes their fish formula though he normally hates fish kibble.


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## Pet Food Dude (Feb 10, 2010)

You might try the Orijen when you rotate to the dry kibble next time as it has far less Calories than the Horizon Legacy.


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## Unosmom (May 3, 2009)

I've used Orijen and even though he loves the taste, he tends to put on weight, so acana is a better choice for us.


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## Pet Food Dude (Feb 10, 2010)

There are numerous scientific studies out there that support a high protein high fat diet for all dogs and in fact most do very well on it.


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## Pet Food Dude (Feb 10, 2010)

The Acana is also one of the lowest Calorie per cup dry kibbles out there. Of course both Orijen and Acana are made by the same Co. Champion Pet Foods.


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## Jordan S. (Feb 2, 2010)

danemama08 said:


> Here's a list of wholesale meat distributing companies that are located in LA. Give them all a call and see if they will sell to you in bulk as a private party. We get most of our meat in bulk from a local meat distributor here. We don't pay no more than $1 per pound for our meat from them, average of about $.60 per pound.
> 
> Meat Wholesale Los Angeles CA | Meat Suppliers Los Angeles
> 
> ...


I'll look into it thanks! :smile: the big question tho is if my mom will go out her way to go there simply for Chocolate's food(she looks killing 2 birds with one stone). but we'll see. im always look into cram more raw into his food regime.


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## RCTRIPLEFRESH5 (Feb 11, 2010)

Unosmom said:


> I noticed that horizon legacy has lowered their protein from 40% to 34%, so now its 420 kcal/cup
> 
> Blue Buffalo Wilderness has also gone from 42% to 34%
> I wonder is it because theyre trying to cut back the costs by using less meat or maybe because most dogs do not do well on high protein diets which can lead to myriad of digestive issues.
> ...


high protein causes digestive issues????????????/ are they permnant?


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## PUNKem733 (Jun 12, 2009)

Unosmom said:


> I've used Orijen and even though he loves the taste, he tends to put on weight, so acana is a better choice for us.


Here's a crazy idea, maybe you can feed him less. This sucks, now I won't use Horizon anymore.

I really don't get how a carnivorous animal like a dog would get digestive issues with too much protein in their diet. That is so ludicrous. My dog went from Iams, for several years, then to Pinnacle for several more, and now he is on Evo, Orijen, Horizon and no problems whatsoever.


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## RCTRIPLEFRESH5 (Feb 11, 2010)

you wont use horizen because you diagree with how ununos mom feeds it? tht crazy/


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## kevin bradley (Aug 9, 2009)

amazing how the "protein is bad" myth just keeps going. Orijen and Evo are stunningly incredible foods. One look at the ingredient list, especially on Orijen and it just blows me away....deboned Walleye and Whitefish?...wow. Unbelievable. For pete's sake, as I understand it, they can only sell so much of their Fish formula because there are regulations on how much WILD fish can be caught each year in Canada. I haven't confirmed this but if true, it is indicative of how far away Orijen is from all other foods...especially the ones getting commercial fish blasted with Ethoxyquin. Kudos for some companies still out there who will go the extra mile for true Quality.


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## Unosmom (May 3, 2009)

> high protein causes digestive issues????????????/ are they permnant?


I personally dont have a problem with high protein diet as long as the dog gets plenty of moisture, since its not raw meat and is very concentrated. 
In my original post, I was reffering to the BB and that most people with average activity dogs dont need to feed such calorie dense foods, another issue is that the general public is misinformed, they end up feeding cold turkey or dont give enough transition period for dogs to adjust to new food, also if they fed something like beneful and jump to grain free wilderness, its very common to see digestive issues. 
So I think they made a step in right direction by slightly lowering the protein levels, which are more suitable for an average pet. 

PUNKem733- I have cut back on the food, and it seems like his weight has stabilized now, so I may keep orijen/horizon in rotation.


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## PUNKem733 (Jun 12, 2009)

Unosmom said:


> PUNKem733- I have cut back on the food, and it seems like his weight has stabilized now, so I may keep orijen/horizon in rotation.



HA! My rotation also includes Orijen/Horizon. Horizon is horribly underrated.


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## kevin bradley (Aug 9, 2009)

Punk, keep us informed on Horizon. I've read some nice comments about the food.


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## Unosmom (May 3, 2009)

Someone mentioned that they also changed the ingridients somewhat, so I looked at my bag at home and compared to the new formula;

Before:

Fresh chicken meat, chicken meal, salmon meal, turkey meal, peas starch concentrate, green split peas, chicken fat, whole eggs, flaxseed, salmon oil (and then a bunch of herbs.. same as new formula)

After:
Chicken, chicken meal, pea, pea starch, turkey meal, chicken fat (preserved with mixed tocopherols, source of vitamin E), salmon meal, pea fibre, flaxseed, egg product, salmon oil (preserved with mixed tocopherols, vitamin E), 

They obviously had to move some of the proteins down the list to reduce protein %, but I wish salmon meal would come before turkey and chicken fat. 

The main thing that stands out to me is the addition of pea fibre and now they use Egg product instead of whole eggs. I hope the quality will not keep declining.


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## PUNKem733 (Jun 12, 2009)

Unosmom said:


> Someone mentioned that they also changed the ingridients somewhat, so I looked at my bag at home and compared to the new formula;
> 
> Before:
> 
> ...


You mean Horizon? I don't have any right now, I'm on Evo in my rotation. If this is Horizon this sucks. It seems like most premium foods are downgrading there ingredients.


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## 3feathers (Oct 29, 2008)

I had just noticed the ingredient change in Horizen, which really sucks! So, just tonight I emailed them to ask about it and ask what the calcium and phosphorus was now. My email kept coming back "Delivery Failure".....3 times.


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## harrkim120 (Feb 2, 2010)

PUNKem733 said:


> You mean Horizon? I don't have any right now, I'm on Evo in my rotation. If this is Horizon this sucks. It seems like most premium foods are downgrading there ingredients.


Yay crappy economy!!! 

:frown:


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