# How many of you have actual first hand experience with intestinal perforation ?



## SonjaWi (Jan 19, 2011)

In another forum, somebody shared an article by a Vet. http://www.showdogsupersite.com/kenlclub/breedvet/dogdiets.html

I have a problem with this part of the article: "We all seem to loathe the idea of feeding 'grocery store' dog food, but consider this; the grocery store food comes from huge companies with superb quality control and research programs. It flies off the shelves and doesn't get stale. The billions of pets eating these foods come into the vet's office happy, healthy and glowing. And, they only need to come in once a year for their shots."
If all those store fed animals are so healthy, why come the vets can still survive? I am sure a vets daily work does not consist on just vacinating all animals once a year - if it was, the world would be perfect. I do not trust vets too much. They sell their own foods, and of course I would always try to market my own product as the better. Perforated intestines and salmonella infections may occur, but I blame that partially on people who are not aware how to feed raw correctly. I treat my dogs raw food just as I would treat my own. I have eaten raw pork, nearly raw beef and a lot of raw fish in my life and never ever had any problems with any bacterial infection, because I take care of what I eat.

So, how many of you have actually knowledge of people that had intestional perforation or blockage issues due to feeding raw? Or the salmonella infection? I am not talking about "I read on the internet about the cousins daughter of a woman in Zimbabwe's chihuahua", I mean a friend, somebody in your discussion group, in your mailing list....

I personally feel its a scare tactics, but of course it makes me feel a bit uncomfortable about it. I used to buy cooked bones in the pet shop, before my dog got his "real teeth". The first time he chewed up a lamb bone into 2 very piercy pieces, that was over. So, I would think I am intelligent enough to know what is dangerous and what not- besides I never let my dog chew anything without supervision. How can a vet know if its a cooked bone or a raw bone? And...if its really that often, how come I know not of one person talking about it?


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## Northwoods10 (Nov 22, 2010)

I have not experienced it with my dogs nor do I know anyone who has with theirs, personally.

I wonder how much of this is based on cooked bones and not raw bones. And as you said, when you are feeding a raw diet correctly.......a *Raw Meaty Bone *.....a bone in piece covered by a nice cushion of meat, there is little room for error.


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## naturalfeddogs (Jan 6, 2011)

I've not heard of it either. What I have noticed, is when I run into other "raw feeders" here where I live, its more like they just throw whatever they have at the dog, not doing it properly, sometimes cooked bones/meat and know nothing about including organs. I mentioned it to someone recently and she said "really"? So, to me its a lack of knowledge. :tsk:


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## spookychick13 (Jan 26, 2010)

Raw diet is not a 'cure all'.
Things still happen, cancer, etc.

A raw fed dog can still injure himself, tear an ACL, etc.

It's always a good idea to have a yearly exam for your pet, at least IMO.

As far as bowel perfs, I have only seen one, ever...and the dog ate the thanksgiving turkey..which was cooked.


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## DaneMama (Jun 27, 2008)

I've never seen a case of lacerated intestines at all. Closest thing was a PWD ate a sock and it caused a blockage.

I agree 100% with Terri. I feel it's important to keep up a good relationship with a vet in case of an emergency as well as other issues that pop up like cancer. It's better to be on top of stuff like that then to let it go...it's always so sad to see when owners have let things get to the point that there is nothing you can do to save the animals life. Annual exams and blood work at minimum!


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## SonjaWi (Jan 19, 2011)

I am going each 6 months to get the Bordatella done, and always get a checkup. I got no problem with going to the vet - I got a problem with a vet writing about nutrition, because honestly, nutritionist is another job .


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## spookychick13 (Jan 26, 2010)

SonjaWi said:


> I am going each 6 months to get the Bordatella done, and always get a checkup. I got no problem with going to the vet - I got a problem with a vet writing about nutrition, because honestly, nutritionist is another job .


That I agree with. 
Fortunately my boss (vet) has me do the research on nutrition.


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## G_slave01 (Dec 24, 2010)

*How many of you have actual first hand experience with intestional peforation*

I have only been feeding raw for 5 mths now & don't personally know one single other raw feeder. Friends and neighbors know about the switch but haven't yet approached me about it (too bad). People seem kinda squirmy about it actually. Anyhow, when I informed my vet that I was switching to raw he neither encouraged or discouraged me. He did seem to suggest (as nicely as possible) that some people just don't have the wherewithal & common sense etc. to take proper care. He claimed to have performed 2 surgeries for blockage which were caused by an inappropriately fed bone. I don't have any reason not to believe him.

Isy.


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## DaneMama (Jun 27, 2008)

You should ask your vet if the bone was cooked, a beef t-bone or a weight bearing bone.


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## BRT (Dec 1, 2010)

I have dogs since i was born, in 1980, never heard about a dog with salmonela or perfuration. I had a dobermann that ate a sock, but then he pooped it:tongue1:

Here he is! Rest in piece, i will always love youray:


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## schtuffy (May 17, 2010)

He's adorable, BRT...what was his name?


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## BRT (Dec 1, 2010)

schtuffy said:


> He's adorable, BRT...what was his name?


Thanks schtuffy. his name was bragui. He past away 2 years ago with a lung infection. My mother still cries for him almost everyday. It was like a soon to her. His love for us was endless, even in his last minutes of life, his only goal was to protect my mother, not letting anyone get close to her... now i´m almost crying myself... sorry. Now i have Tosa here at my feet waitting for his meal and i love him too!!


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## RawFedDogs (Jun 16, 2008)

SonjaWi said:


> In another forum, somebody shared an article by a Vet. http://www.showdogsupersite.com/kenlclub/breedvet/dogdiets.html
> 
> I have a problem with this part of the article: "We all seem to loathe the idea of feeding 'grocery store' dog food, but consider this; the grocery store food comes from huge companies with superb quality control and research programs. It flies off the shelves and doesn't get stale. The billions of pets eating these foods come into the vet's office happy, healthy and glowing. And, they only need to come in once a year for their shots."


Well of course the article is all wrong. Grocery store dog foods are terrible. The worst of the worst.



> Perforated intestines and salmonella infections may occur, but I blame that partially on people who are not aware how to feed raw correctly.


Actually they don't. Its pretty difficult to feed them improperly. I have been feeding raw for almost 9 years and that whole time have spent A LOT of time on discussion boards like this where raw feeding was discussed. In the 9 years, I have probably read over 100,000 posts. Maybe a lot more. In all that time I heard of ONE intestilal perforation and one esophagus blockage. So they are VERY rare. I have never heard of a confirmed case of salmonella. That seems to be the catch all excuse any time the vet doesn't know why a dog has an upset tummy. Its real easy to say "salmonella" and there case is solved. No tests no nothing.



> I treat my dogs raw food just as I would treat my own. I have eaten raw pork, nearly raw beef and a lot of raw fish in my life and never ever had any problems with any bacterial infection, because I take care of what I eat.


Dogs don't get bacterial infections from the food they eat. I have fed my dogs some very rotten meat. I mean it stunk to high heaven. Had to use a can of deoderizer and it still didn't clear the smell out of the kitchen. Dogs showed no ill effect.



> So, how many of you have actually knowledge of people that had intestional perforation or blockage issues due to feeding raw? Or the salmonella infection? I am not talking about "I read on the internet about the cousins daughter of a woman in Zimbabwe's chihuahua", I mean a friend, somebody in your discussion group, in your mailing list....


I doubt you will find any with first or second hand information on either. These things are so rare, the dog has a better chance of getting hit by lightning.



> I never let my dog chew anything without supervision. How can a vet know if its a cooked bone or a raw bone? And...if its really that often, how come I know not of one person talking about it?


I don't even supervise my dogs directly anymore. I hand them their food and they go off and eat it. I don't have a worry in the world. They know what they are doing.


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## Caty M (Aug 13, 2010)

I suppose the thousands of dogs and cats dying from melamine poisoning in 2007 from the major grocery store brands is a good example of their 'excellent quality control'.


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## whiteleo (Sep 7, 2008)

O.K. RFD, that is horrible advise to not supervise your dogs while eating a raw diet! I don't want to have to tell my story but I will if you give that advise.


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## Caty M (Aug 13, 2010)

I don't supervise my dogs either.. he is an excellent chewer and I don't have any worries. Would you suggest kibble feeders watch their dogs too? Because I know of a Boston terrier who choked, and died, on his food.


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## whiteleo (Sep 7, 2008)

You go right ahead and not supervise your dog and the stories that you think "don't exist" might just sneak up and bite you in the *ss.


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## BrownieM (Aug 30, 2010)

Know your dog. I will always supervise while they eat.


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## Caty M (Aug 13, 2010)

If my dog was a gulper I would. But he isn't.. so I don't. I did the first month or so.. now I occasionally just watch him because I enjoy it. Of course the risk is pretty rare, but much less than a dog eating household objects etc.. and the vast majority of people don't supervise their dog, 24/7.


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## whiteleo (Sep 7, 2008)

Well, it may be rare but I've had 2, count them 2 endoscopies on my female because of unsupervised stupidity. The first one was a bone that broke loose and got stuck, she could barely breathe, uncooked.

The second which some people may have chosen to stop feeding a raw diet but I won't because it is the best thing for my dogs. My husband was home and I was at work, he fed the dogs turkey necks and he didn't watch them, my female is a pig and went to steal a turkey neck from her brother, so she tried to eat it quickly and it got stuck. I got home 1 1/2 hrs later and she was still trying to throw it up, he's just now noticing it. It wasn't moving, and her breathing was getting labored. She had to go to Lynnwood to have a special endoscopy tool. I've spent a fortune on my dogs, and most people would have given up on the first one.

ALWAYS SUPERVISE YOUR DOGS WHEN EATING!!!!!


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## candiceb (Jan 22, 2010)

I don't watch them like a hawk or anything. They would probably think something was wrong if I just sat there staring at them. I crate them when they eat (and their crates are in my bedroom), so I'll leave the door open so I can hear them eating, and I'll peek on them if they're taking a while. But in the almost year I've been feeding them, my dogs have never so much as gagged on anything, never thrown anything up to re-eat it, so I'm fairly confident in their abilities. Not saying that choking doesn't happen to some dogs, but I'm fairly confident in mine. 

Now, I wouldn't just feed them and then leave. I'm always there at home, nearby, when they're eating. 

And again, I don't doubt that some dogs have choked. Here's a firsthand story for you. My childhood GSP was a gulper, and choked and died on her kibble.


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## sassymaxmom (Dec 7, 2008)

If I don't stay within sight Max panics and does stupid eating. Just recently he gulped a chunk of boneless pork and needed to do a redo. I didn't see the chicken neck get swallowed whole or the chicken wing that needed a redo either.


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## Cliffdog (Dec 30, 2010)

BRT said:


> I have dogs since i was born, in 1980, never heard about a dog with salmonela or perfuration. I had a dobermann that ate a sock, but then he pooped it:tongue1:
> 
> Here he is! Rest in piece, i will always love youray:


Aww... cute as can be


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## richie (Jan 30, 2011)

*close call with a peach pit!*

Last summer my dog had a close call... turns out while out running in the orchard she must have devoured a luscious ripe peach (yum) pit and all! well... a week after we were there, she started vomiting and bloody diarrhea, was so prostrated she could barely walk. As I was taking her the E.R., she BLEW OUT a peach pit! Ah.... well now I am a lot more careful. At the vet, they took X-rays, to make sure there weren't any other things in there. She was back to normal in 12 hours after getting IV saline -- very dehydrated. The vet said the same week they had another dog ate a peach pit and needed to have it removed SURGICALLY! 

Moral of the story is, anything too big to come out easily can cause problems... for a small dog, a peach pit is [almost] too big! Ouch, that would even hurt a person I would think coming out! All those ridges! 

Good news is, raw bones usually will dissolve in the HCl in a normal dog stomach, peach pits not so much!!! I know my dog does not chew the bones up very fine... but they come out the other end completely digested!


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## cprcheetah (Jul 14, 2010)

Nope, haven't seen a perforation or obstruction with Raw Bones, in 20+ years of working for a Vet have only seen 1 perforation caused by a bone and it was a cooked chicken bone. Have seen lots of socks, undies, tennis balls, rocks etc though lol.


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## xxshaelxx (Mar 8, 2010)

cprcheetah said:


> Nope, haven't seen a perforation or obstruction with Raw Bones, in 20+ years of working for a Vet have only seen 1 perforation caused by a bone and it was a cooked chicken bone. Have seen lots of socks, undies, tennis balls, rocks etc though lol.


Undies...that will be my dog one day. hahahaha.

Personally, I feel that both of my dogs eat their food well enough to be left partially unsupervised. I mean, I'm always there, not far away, and they're always checked on. Mostly, however, Ryou has his food down before I can really do much of anything. He chews it into pieces he can easily swallow, though, not like gulping it whole. And Amaya...well...she pretty much chews like an herbivore. She makes sure it's good and chewed before it goes down the hatch. Don't think I'll ever have a problem with her.

I wonder, though, if you're there to see it happen, versus being there to take them to the vet later on, is there anything you can do about it, other than taking them to the vet that much earlier? I mean, if it's going to get stuck where they can't get it out, and you can't reach it, then I would think it's not going to go much further. Either way, I'd definitely rather get them to the vet sooner, rather than later!

In any case, that article is bordering on infuriating. If that were my vet, and they asked me "Are you a nutritionist?" or "did you get a degree in university nutrition?" I'd ask RIGHT back "Did you? Did you even have a nutrition class sponsored by someone other than the big name companies who stand to gain from teaching you about *their* version of nutrition?" in a very rude and condescending manner.

And if you notice, this vet doesn't mention anything like allergies, diabetes (I would think it can happen in skinny dogs as well, considering not all people who have diabetes are fat???), or other things related to kibble diets.


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## RawFedDogs (Jun 16, 2008)

xxshaelxx said:


> I mean, if it's going to get stuck where they can't get it out, and you can't reach it, then I would think it's not going to go much further. Either way, I'd definitely rather get them to the vet sooner, rather than later!


If the dog is not in distress, don't worry about it. It will work its way through, probably disolve in the stomach. My dogs have swallowed drumsticks whole several times. There was never a problem.


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## xxshaelxx (Mar 8, 2010)

RawFedDogs said:


> If the dog is not in distress, don't worry about it. It will work its way through, probably disolve in the stomach. My dogs have swallowed drumsticks whole several times. There was never a problem.


Well, no, I mean, like, if they are in distress, and if they can't do anything about it being stuck there.


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## Caty M (Aug 13, 2010)

That article is the most condescending thing I have ever read.


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## hbwright (Jul 14, 2010)

BRT said:


> I have dogs since i was born, in 1980, never heard about a dog with salmonela or perfuration. I had a dobermann that ate a sock, but then he pooped it:tongue1:
> 
> Here he is! Rest in piece, i will always love youray:


What is it with doberman and socks? I am a freak when it comes to picking up socks around the house but he still manages to find them. Luckely they are kids and they go right through. It is obvious God loves my dog so much as many times as he has saved him from obstruction. 

As far as perforation, healthy colon is very thick and not very easy to truely perforate. Much easier to necrose due to something such as obstruction but by that time a lot of digestable materials have been already begun to break down. My dog had a rubber ball stuck in the colon, never a bone and he eats pretty big chunks. If it fits down the hatch it comes out digested.


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## rannmiller (Jun 27, 2008)

SonjaWi said:


> I am going each 6 months to get the Bordatella done, and always get a checkup. I got no problem with going to the vet - I got a problem with a vet writing about nutrition, because honestly, nutritionist is another job .


Are your dogs boarding, grooming, and going to dog daycares on a regular basis? If not, bordatella is completely unnecessary, just so ya know. I'm not discouraging biannual check ups, just over-vaccinating. 

As far as perforations or bacterial infections go, I've never seen one at my clinic and I've been there for almost a year. I saw a dog come in who had eaten part of a cooked steak bone, but the vet decided it was passing through well enough and sure enough, the dog passed it the next day. We definitely get more obstructions from rocks (lots of rock-eaters around here, probably fed those awesome grocery store brands that give them everything they need! :second, socks, rope toys, etc. but no bones. And I have yet to find a dog that has salmonella or e.coli. 

I also know several raw feeders personally who have never had any issues of bacterial infections, perforations, blockages, or choking with their raw fed dogs, so I'm guessing it's more a myth perpetuated by the veterinary industry and the very select few morons who fed their dog the wrong type of bone.


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## whiteleo (Sep 7, 2008)

I could put you in contact with someone from my raw feeding co-op who lost a Boxer to eating turkey necks, she left him unattended and he died from CHOKING to death!


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## whiteleo (Sep 7, 2008)

Needless to say she won't feed turkey necks anymore and feeds mostly ground!


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## SonjaWi (Jan 19, 2011)

rannmiller said:


> Are your dogs boarding, grooming, and going to dog daycares on a regular basis? If not, bordatella is completely unnecessary, just so ya know. I'm not discouraging biannual check ups, just over-vaccinating.


Yes, I know, but my husband is in the military and we need to be ready for worst case scenarios where we have to board the dog fast. So I can't get around it really.


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## Caty M (Aug 13, 2010)

whiteleo said:


> I could put you in contact with someone from my raw feeding co-op who lost a Boxer to eating turkey necks, she left him unattended and he died from CHOKING to death!


I don't feed chicken necks for that reason, unless they are attached to the breast bone. If a dog isn't a good chewer, it should not be fed small enough bones to eat in one gulp.

I don't think choking is unheard of but use common sense and it shouldn't happen.


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## whiteleo (Sep 7, 2008)

I personally don't think that is the issue with turkey necks, the connective tissue (membrane) if not completely seperated when chewing can cause it to be one big piece. I still feed turkey necks but for my peace of mind I cut them up into small pieces and know that the membrane is in fact not attached to another piece. They are small enough that they could not choke so Please don't reply that I shouldn't cut them. IMO:becky:eace:


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## xxshaelxx (Mar 8, 2010)

whiteleo said:


> I personally don't think that is the issue with turkey necks, the connective tissue (membrane) if not completely seperated when chewing can cause it to be one big piece. I still feed turkey necks but for my peace of mind I cut them up into small pieces and know that the membrane is in fact not attached to another piece. They are small enough that they could not choke so Please don't reply that I shouldn't cut them. IMO:becky:eace:


*cough* I cut mine. I know I'm not supposed to, but I've never had a problem with it. Otherwise Ryou would probably choke on them, because he swallows them whole, like they're spaghetti noodles. -.-


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## luvMyBRT (Mar 8, 2010)

xxshaelxx said:


> he swallows them whole, like they're spaghetti noodles. -.-


So does Duncan. The little turds...... :crazy:


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## Paws&Tails (Sep 3, 2010)

whiteleo said:


> I personally don't think that is the issue with turkey necks, the connective tissue (membrane) if not completely seperated when chewing can cause it to be one big piece. I still feed turkey necks but for my peace of mind I cut them up into small pieces and know that the membrane is in fact not attached to another piece. They are small enough that they could not choke so Please don't reply that I shouldn't cut them. IMO:becky:eace:


I cut up turkey necks even though Spike's a very good chewer when it comes to bone-in meat. It's too big for Spike to eat at one meal.


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## Osiris (Feb 1, 2011)

SonjaWi said:


> Yes, I know, but my husband is in the military and we need to be ready for worst case scenarios where we have to board the dog fast. So I can't get around it really.


I haven't worked for a vet in a long time but when I did, we would give them when they boarded, they didn't have to have them prior to that. Is that not the case? 



saraj2878 said:


> So does Duncan. The little turds...... :crazy:


I have given mine one as a treat a while back before I started raw as a diet and he he took a few chomps and swallowed the whole thing. Not only did I want to puke but I was really worried, he did just fine though and I never even saw a bit of bone in his poop which I watched for a week!

In reference to the thread, I am disgusted by the pet food industry and what they are able to get away with in advertising. It makes me angry that they can blatantly lie about how nutritious their product is! Any vet that supports that is a miserable human being as well, in my mind! Whether it is ignorance or for profit they should not be vets! 

My vet has a tech that feeds BARF but I know I will have a conversation on my hands when I tell her I am doing the prey model. Other than that I really like my vet and I am happy she has someone working for her that knows about nutrition, whether it be the same thinking as mine, at least it isn't science diet!


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