# post about near lethal raw meaty bone experience. comments?



## taem (Oct 29, 2011)

It's stuff like this that scares me to death. I think I'm going to start with chicken necks and backs and avoid wings at first, even before I saw this I worried that that chicken wing bones are too long and spear-like. I would like to do cornish game hens but I have no clue how to chop those up for serving portions. If someone knows please tell me.

Meanwhile, the post:










Caution on raw bones: picture of a dangerous undigested bone

Btw it's not like I feel safe with chicken backs either. Check out this vid (wish there were more vids like this btw) by a guy preparing chicken backs for his dogs.






Those little jagged spikes he talks about and shows, medieval knights used those as weapons basically.









If someone knows of problems with chicken necks, maybe it's best I don't hear about it, because at this point I'm running out of animal parts to feed and well on my way back to kibble.


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## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

I have not fed many chicken wings to my small dog with four teeth, mainly because she does tend to swallow them whole. She also swallows necks pretty much whole, and chicken heads whole after she pulls the meat off of it. She eats chicken backs with minimal chewing and has never had a problem digesting any of them. 

Pretty much any bone is going to shard when they chew and swallow. It's kind of the nature of eating a bone. But Snorkels has choked on a totally boneless piece of food and I had to turn her upside down and squeeze her to get it out. 

There are also various reasons that dogs might not fully digest bones. That dog should have digested a soft chicken bone. When Snorkels is on antibiotics, I don't let her eat bones because I worry about her digestive juices being out of whack and she doesn't chew much so her stomach needs to be on full power. 

With dry dog food, the chance of choking definitely exists. Also the chance of melamine, aflatoxin, allergies, etc.

You must make your own decisions. There are no guarantees in life. Snorkels just had to have two venison ribs pulled out of her stomach by the vet because i gave her bones she couldn't handle. They have very sharp, pointed ends and were scratching the hell out of her stomach lining. I would never consider NOT giving her more bones. Meaty bones are the best thing in the world for her.


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## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

And I would just like to add that after the venison rib incident I am not feeding Snorkels any bone while her stomach is healing.

I know I will be terrified the first time I do give her a bone. Maybe more than when I started them on raw. I've been through it, I've seen what can happen, and no it wasn't fun for either one of us.

But i'm gonna do it, even if I have to get drunk to hand that bone over (and I haven't had a drink in 15 years). I know it's best for her. I know it changed her life, reduced her enlarged heart, made her mouth healthy and I know in my head she will be able to handle it just fine. 

That doesn't change the fear I have about it, though - that comes from the gut and you can't rationalize it away. I do know how you are feeling, believe me.


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## liquid (Dec 28, 2011)

You'll be fine - dont overthink so much. You can skip the wings and feed necks and backs. I personally never fed wings because well, I didnt need to.
The guy who's chopping up the chicken backs for his dogs is actually making it MORE of a choking hazard for his dogs by making the smaller pieces possible to swallow whole.


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## Liz (Sep 27, 2010)

There are no guaranteed with anything. I have a friend who wants 100% guaranteed with everything and in the end she ends up doing a half job of everything. Feed half raw and half kibble, give less vaccines, still douses in chemicals. She now thinks she is raising naturally. A bit less toxic maybe but not natural. I think you need to research, get happy with your decision and settle in. Can dogs choke on a bone? I guess, but I really haven't heard of many cases on the other hand I hear constantly about choking on rocks, sticks, rawhide, clothing, and other toys as well as kibble. Plus feeding my pups all those toxins is by far a greater risk than feeding a species appropriate diet. they were made to digest bone not to eat cereal just because we are more comfortable with that. JMHO


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## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

liquid said:


> You'll be fine - dont overthink so much. You can skip the wings and feed necks and backs. I personally never fed wings because well, I didnt need to.
> The guy who's chopping up the chicken backs for his dogs is actually making it MORE of a choking hazard for his dogs by making the smaller pieces possible to swallow whole.


yes, I was kind of amazed when he cut them into treat-size pieces and hand fed them. Yikes!


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## whiteleo (Sep 7, 2008)

The guy has BIG DOGS...He shouldn't be touching those backs at all, except maybe to pull some fat off if they are newly transitioning...He's an idiot!


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## Liz (Sep 27, 2010)

I just remember I have pictures on my profile of 6 week old collie pups eating raw. Check out how they go at their chicken quarters and that may give you a little comfort. One of those pups just won her first show, her brother is with me at 65 pounds doing great, still on raw and getting ready to show and her other brother is getting his title also. All raw - all great.


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## bridget246 (Oct 26, 2011)

Xelil, it pains me to see your post at times. You went on such a long journey for the sake of your dog. Good to see your able to keep going despite it all. 

Bridget had bloat with Kibble. The little small pieces allowed her to eat them way too fast. I will never forget that night. I was feeding Bridget kibble from my hand because she chocked on it earlier. Figured we could do the watch me game, enjoy dinner, and keep her from chocking all at the same time. But, after a handful I stopped feeding her. I put the rest of the food away. Bridget looked fine to me. I just had a gut feeling about it. We went out to eat for about a hour and half. When we came home Bridget looked different, her body was swollen. We rushed her to the ER for help fearing it was bloat. All the ER did was confirm it, gave something to help her stomach and tried to give me some food with corn listed as one of the first ingredients. I refused the canned food. Took the medication and followed the doctors advice which was a walk every 30 minutes and water every hour. It was a long night. Any going wrong would turn Bridget's stomach and kill her. I felt so guilty about it. We couldn't afford a overnight stay at the ER for 3 days that they wanted us to pay so that means Bridget's recovery was on us. 

I'll never say that bone is 100% safe. I do believe it is much safer than kibble. If I could have trusted someone to make my dog's food for me, I would have. My gut feeling has been right all this time so I'm going to listen. If it says don't trust them, I will investigate it further before taking any action. Bridget could die from her next bone, or from a fall, or any other means of death. But that isn't going to stop me from doing what I feel is best during the time I have to use. 

It is good to know the risk involved in everything so I thank you for making this thread taem.


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## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

bridget246 said:


> Bridget had bloat with Kibble.


you bring up a very good point. If a list were made of the cons to kibble, it would be a thousand times longer than the cons to raw. And bloat would be right up there.

you have struggled alot more with bridget than I have with Snorkels - and still are sticking with it. The testament to the raw food is that it's worth it and in reality the risk is very small compared to life in general.


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## VizslaMama (Feb 15, 2012)

Liz said:


> Can dogs choke on a bone? I guess, but I really haven't heard of many cases on the other hand I hear constantly about choking on rocks, sticks, rawhide, clothing, and other toys as well as kibble. Plus feeding my pups all those toxins is by far a greater risk than feeding a species appropriate diet. they were made to digest bone not to eat cereal just because we are more comfortable with that. JMHO


Agreed - My dog Copper eats anything and everything and has more issues with the objects Liz mentioned that bones. 

Copper had to have a corn cob removed from his intestines. I will note he also consumed a turkey neck within this time before he showed signs of a blockage. We did not know he ate a price of corn cob so all we could tell the vet was, "well we fed him a turkey neck last night" The vet said "Ah that must be it, bones are not safe for dogs" 

They said we could wait to see if it passes or do the emergency surgery. Deep down, I knew it was not the turkey neck that was causeing this problem. We opted for emergency surgery and well wouldn't you know, a walnut sized corn cob and only tiny fragments of bone. The vet said "How much of the turkey neck did he eat. I said "the whole thing". Let me tell you, the vet was amazed that only tiny tiny peices of bones were found, yet the corn cob was hardly digested. DUH! The vet apologized for jumping the gun on the bones, and said "You made the right choice. If you waited, Copper wouldn't be here. Corn cobs do not digest well" 

If you are worried about choking, I feed my RMBs frozen. I guess not all dogs can handle really cold food but Copper is a gulper and swallows things in miliseconds!! LOL 

At the start, he would hack up the peices he swallowed because when thawed they just slipped into his mouth and down the hatch like butter. Never choked, just regurgitated it and chewed a bit more. It was still a scary thing to watch expecially since I was still so new to feeding raw, so I thought I would see how he did with a frozen back. 100% improvement and I never thawed RMBs again. He has to really work at crunching the peices. By the time he gets to the end he swallows them with no problems. 

I hope everyone's posts makes you feel better.


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## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

VizslaMama said:


> They said we could wait to see if it passes or do the emergency surgery. Deep down, I knew it was not the turkey neck that was causeing this problem. We opted for emergency surgery and well wouldn't you know, a walnut sized corn cob and only tiny fragments of bone. The vet said "How much of the turkey neck did he eat. I said "the whole thing". Let me tell you, the vet was amazed that only tiny tiny peices of bones were found, yet the corn cob was hardly digested. DUH! The vet apologized for jumping the gun on the bones, and said "You made the right choice. If you waited, Copper wouldn't be here. Corn cobs do not digest well"


What you say is so true. The cavalier taem refers to actually hacked up the bone. it didn't poke a hole in the stomach or do any other damage.

And Snorkels ribs - one x-ray showed them sitting in her stomach up and down rather than laying flat. They were much, much bigger than her stomach. They never poked a hole, although they did scratch the lining. One end of each of them was extremely sharp. I was actually kind of surprised there was no perforation.

And she is still pooping white - she was digesting that thing. In all actuality, in another day it probably would have been dissolved; however, the length of it was just too much for her and that was my fault, not the bone's nor her digestive system. It was just taking too long.

I had Rebel x-rayed once after he ate a plate of cooked chicken thighs. An hour after he ate them, they could not find a bone in the x-ray.

Dogs' digestive systems are really amazing things. We don't give them enough credit.


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## Chocx2 (Nov 16, 2009)

wow they sure do cut that chicken up, I cut mine up but just because I have four dogs and one small chicken is enough for all four. The first year I had some bone bio throw ups but haven't had any for sometime that I can remember. I give turkey necks also..

I can remember when I started I would grind it all, being scared of the bones...and get pre ground like primal, but that was when it was cheap, now they are just out of their minds with the price. Would get elk or venison, or buffalo.

Had one scare, my boy was sick one night and he was not poopin, took him to the ER they pulled out a piece of a rag and part of a palm fron lol no bone


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## Mondo (Dec 20, 2011)

Necks are my mainstay. While Toby eats anything, Tuffy does not like backs, even chopped up. Wings he has eaten on occasion, but mainly liks the drumette and wing tips, not the center piece. Necks it is, Tuffy gets a great chew. Toby not so much, but I leave his frozen usually -- he had a scaling a week ago, so at the moment no frozen necks. They each also like chicken feet.


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## BearMurphy (Feb 29, 2012)

yeah i'm not sure that i'd be too worried if my dog hacked up some bone 12 hours after eating, because i've seen bone in empty stomach pukes. bone i've seen is usually more rounded and white though. maybe the dog just didn't chew enough or has other problems


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## trikerdon (May 14, 2011)

I don't give Sheba chicken wings or any small pieces of anything like them. I was worried about chicken feet but so far it is ok and she loves them. I don't do backs of anything. She gets turkey necks, chicken thighs, chickenlegs, pork ribs. Hasn't had a problem with any of them.


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## Kat (Jul 12, 2011)

I usually feed Ruby chicken drumsticks, but do use chicken wings once in a while. She usually chomps down on them 2-3 times and swallows them. From what I can tell they do fully digest, the expection being small bone shards in her poop every now and then.


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## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

Kat said:


> I usually feed Ruby chicken drumsticks, but do use chicken wings once in a while. She usually chomps down on them 2-3 times and swallows them. From what I can tell they do fully digest, the expection being small bone shards in her poop every now and then.


yes, i don't think people understand - shards are NORMAL. When a bone is crunched, it makes shards. Every dog eating raw is digesting bone shards, lots of them. If a shard would kill a dog, they'd all be dead.


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## shellbell (Sep 24, 2011)

I was more freaked out about bloat on kibble, then about dangerous bones with raw. 

Also, there have been a couple of times I thought one of mine was choking, and it has always been with the boneless stuff.


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## taem (Oct 29, 2011)

Well I'm not going to shy away from doing raw meaty bone, I am still committed to that. Ultimately I take great comfort in the fact that a lot of people are doing it and if dogs were dying left and right we'd be hearing all about it. I've been doing as much research as anyone possibly can on this I think, and so far, this case and Xelil's case are the only incidents I know of.

Still scary though. I really don't want to be that one in a million where it goes horribly wrong. If puppy so much as coughs during that first feeding I'll freak, I know I will. I remember when my first niece was born, everytime she cried at night I was screaming at everyone that we needed to go to the emergency room immediately.


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## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

taem said:


> Well I'm not going to shy away from doing raw meaty bone, I am still committed to that. Ultimately I take great comfort in the fact that a lot of people are doing it and if dogs were dying left and right we'd be hearing all about it. I've been doing as much research as anyone possibly can on this I think, and so far, this case and Xelil's case are the only incidents I know of.
> 
> Still scary though. I really don't want to be that one in a million where it goes horribly wrong. If puppy so much as coughs during that first feeding I'll freak, I know I will. I remember when my first niece was born, everytime she cried at night I was screaming at everyone that we needed to go to the emergency room immediately.


I'm glad you are still committed. And remember, Snorkels' was NOT a normal bone gone wrong. It was the fact that I gave her the exact wrong size bone and she only has four teeth. So I don't really count her as just eating a bone she should be eating and things went haywire.

Do you drink? It might help


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## taem (Oct 29, 2011)

xellil said:


> I'm glad you are still committed. And remember, Snorkels' was NOT a normal bone gone wrong. It was the fact that I gave her the exact wrong size bone and she only has four teeth. So I don't really count her as just eating a bone she should be eating and things went haywire.
> 
> Do you drink? It might help


That's like a shiv, what Snorkels swallowed. Snorkels > gangbangers in prison. The dude with the cavaliers shouldn't even be complaining, that bone is only golf tee sized.


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## Maligatork9 (Feb 8, 2012)

I know your fears but you just have to jump in and enjoy the ride! I was pretty nervous for about the first week of feeding raw. I'm about 4 weeks in now and am soooooo glad I switched. I still keep an eye on m dog while she eats and probably always will (just seems like the smart thing to do PLUS it's just damn fun to watch!). 

Its been four weeks and my dogs teeth (which had a lot of plaque) are MUCH cleaner and are getting cleaner every day. I could not get them clean on kibble, not with brushing, chew toys, or dental chews. It took a full cleaning from the vet and within a month or 2 they were back to being covered in plaque. 

My dog's coat is brighter, softer and not oily at all. She also sheds waaaay less than before. She is happier and looks forward to eating every meal. She sits at my feet waiting for me while I prepare her food. It almost looked like a punishment when I was feeding her kibble. I practically had to beg her to eat it. She would walk by it several times before FINALLY eating it. I'm so glad I switched!


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## sozzle (May 18, 2011)

taem you sound totally paranoid, take a deep breath and just breathe in an out a few times, you're making me jittery just reading your posts....mind you I have just drunk two cups of strong coffee. 
Look, as the other posters have said there are risks with everything, it can also depend on whether your dog is a 'chomp and swallower'. My boy had to get used to raw when we started so I used to hold the chicken necks to make him crunch them a couple of times before swallowing and even now I watch him eat. He is pretty good even though he has a long and big mouth and sometimes he does swallow too soon and regurgitates. Dogs have the most amazing gag reflex by the way, impressive at what can go down and come up.
I love to see him really enjoy his food now compared to when he was on kibble which he used to inhale.
There are risks in life, we all have to take our chances. In fact a friend's brother in law about 20 years ago, a firefighter in his 20s died at home on the couch sitting with his wife choking on a chocolate bar, unfortunately he was too big for her to do the heimlich manoeuvre and he died. So you see it happens to silly humans too.


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## sozzle (May 18, 2011)

I've just watched the video and I must say personally I wouldn't bother doing any cutting up and throwing away fat or worrying about sharp rib bones. He's over complicating the RMB theory especially when you see the size of his dogs.
Chickens for eating are only about about 4-6 weeks old and therefore the bones are soft. I wouldn't buy 'boiling hens' for my dog as they are ex layers and old birds and their bones are much more brittle.
Apart from that I liked the vid.


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

my pug had more issues with kibble than with raw. and believe me, with his mouth being wider than his throat, he tries to swallow things whole....

he has succeeded and then horked things up. there have been times when i reach down his throat to pull some piece of long fat out.....

but, my shih tzu almost died on a piece of steak. my other shih tzue almost died when kibble got stuck in his throat.

as liz and others have stated, there are no guarantees.

in the two years i've been feeding raw, though, my pug has swallowed one drumstick whole and that was the first week. 

he has horked up pieces of duck fat that were too long to swallow. he's done that a few times.

i am in the kitchen with my dogs when they eat, because that's what makes sense to me.

i am ever vigilant but not worried, if that makes sense.

i have a screwed up larynx which makes swallowing sometimes difficult....i don't wait for honey to get home or i'd starve, although i could stand to lose some weight.

the point is to be prepared. if your dog starts to choke, you pick him up and do the heimlich. if you don't know the heimlich...learn.

keep in mind that chicken and cornish game hens and quail have the softest bone, which is why we start them on chicken, most of us.

also, something to remember...as time goes by, they get very strong jaws....and muscles like you wouldn't believe...i can pick my dog up by his teeth and have when trying to get something away from him.

i should have named him 'jaws'. and he's just a pug.

you'll be fine....try not to overthink this....or learn to drink as i did....after the horror of it all, it gets to be a very comforting sound....your dogs crunching bone.


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## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

you are right Re, Snorkels came much closer to death when she got a piece of kidney stuck in her throat than she did with giant venison ribs in her stomach.


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

you were right to take snorkels to the vet...even though her digestive system was working the way it should have.

if the bones in her had been laying flat, i doubt if the ER would have been necessary...

once on raw, their digestive systems are very strong....

and, it's a common sense thing, i guess....i wouldn't feed bubba a drumette or a chicken wing. they are too small for him. 

but, i fed backs for months....and they do learn how to eat bone. 

it does take some time.

snorkels and bubba i believe are stupid eaters.....those are the ones we stay on top of....doesn't mean we can't feed raw....just means we sleep with one eye open.


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## Makovach (Jan 24, 2012)

I used to be parinoid that the bones would splinter. The first time I gave Annie a chicken quarter, I pulled it out of her throat/mouth because I heard them crunching and it just got to me that she was going to choak. Turned out that they were pieces of bone, not spinters. And she was like "Hey! Give that back!" I think its just somthing you have to get yourself over. I'm over it. Now my dogs will be eating almost anything I can get my hands on!

As far as the guy cuting up the chicken backs, Since my backs are whole like his, Should I just remove the skin/organs and give them whole? They are boxers, so they are big dogs. About 65-70lbs.


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## taem (Oct 29, 2011)

sozzle said:


> taem you sound totally paranoid


That's probably because I *am*. Weren't you stressed the first time you handed your pup raw bones? Maybe not you being a kiwi and all lol. I know some kiwis, total nutters, banned for life from many places in the East Bay like bowling alleys (chucking balls at other people's lanes, trying to hit balls with other balls), the Le Mans (I told those guys it's not a bumper car ride), a few golf courses (throwing clubs at the balls from some distance instead of putting), etc etc.

I'm totally getting pet insurance though.


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## Dude and Bucks Mamma (May 14, 2011)

One of my dogs, to this day I do not know who, horked up a whole drumstick on my carpet hours after they had eaten and it didn't bother me one bit. It was all hollowed out and the top layers were becoming transparent because it was partially digested. This was within the first couple of weeks. I'll be honest, it was fascinating. It looked like, if you poked it, it would just *POOF* turn to dust.

The woman with the cavaliers was, IMO, most likely worrying too much. Her cavs probably just need bigger bones because they can onviously swallow it without crunching it up too much. 

We had problems with Buck horking up his meal (both bone in and boneless) for a while but as we learned more, our feeding style slowly changed and we haven't had any barf in quite a long time now. It all stays down once swallowed.

Buck is my stupid eater. He has been known to swallow whole 2 lb chunks of beef heart... Never has he choked on a bone. He is not to be trusted with a whole piece of heart because THAT he will choke on.


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## Maligatork9 (Feb 8, 2012)

Makovach said:


> As far as the guy cuting up the chicken backs, Since my backs are whole like his, Should I just remove the skin/organs and give them whole? They are boxers, so they are big dogs. About 65-70lbs.


I would feed them whole. I didn't trim anything off of them and my dog did fine. I always thought she had a sensitive stomach since she would have bouts of runny stool here and there. Knock on wood, but she hasn't had any problems with her stool since starting. So I would say her sensitive stomach would be due to kibble lol.


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## MollyWoppy (Mar 19, 2010)

Oi, another Kiwi here, ahem. Yes, I'd watch that sozzle if I were you, she's big trouble! Should be banned if you ask me. 
In our heart of heart's, I think every single one of us had that exact same thought when we first started feeding raw: "will my dog be the one in a million that chokes". I know I did and I'm almost positive that it crossed everyone else's minds as well. 
But, Mol, my dog's, been on raw well over 2 years now and not one problem. Lola, my friends gulper pug has been on raw for probably 5 or 6 months, and she's fine, and believe me, if a dog was going to have problems, it would be her.
This worry is just part and parcel of all the bad stories you hear, but once you come to a place like this where everyone is feeding raw but are educated and respect the diet, then you have to trust and believe that we would never put your pup in a position where it's life could be in danger, no way. 
In 6 month's time, wait and see, you will be trying to ease other first timers worries about this exact same thing. It's funny, I was asking the exact same questions when I first started and now I'm the one trying to ease other people fears.


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## taem (Oct 29, 2011)

Dude and Bucks Mamma said:


> Buck is my stupid eater. He has been known to swallow whole 2 lb chunks of beef heart... Never has he choked on a bone. He is not to be trusted with a whole piece of heart because THAT he will choke on.


I've never known a poodle that's a stupid eater, and I've known lots of poodles, so that gives me hope. Our toys, we used to give them short ribs, sliced choking hazard thin, like half an inch or less (galbi sized, if you know korean cuisine), and they'd gnaw on those things like princess-y little girls licking a lollipop. All their lives they never choked on anything, never came close.

Not like my sister's lab. Omfg. Sometimes Marz will put his mouth on furniture like "can I swallow that?" Every lab I've known is like that. I don't think it's just my experience, I was reading Jean Donaldson's Culture Clash (fantastic read) and she has a chart of the universe according to humans vs dogs, and at the end of the list she has "Rocks" which to a human is a "rock" and to a dog is a "rock" unless it's a Lab in which case it's "food". That cracked me up. But seriously, Labs, wow are those guys the masters of mayhem. I'm surprised they haven't gone extinct.


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## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

taem said:


> I've never known a poodle that's a stupid eater, and I've known lots of poodles, so that gives me hope. Our toys, we used to give them short ribs, sliced choking hazard thin, like half an inch or less (galbi sized, if you know korean cuisine), and they'd gnaw on those things like princess-y little girls licking a lollipop. All their lives they never choked on anything, never came close.


My Doberman is like that. I can give him any tiny bone and he chews it like an old lady at a tea party.


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

taem said:


> That's probably because I *am*. Weren't you stressed the first time you handed your pup raw bones? Maybe not you being a kiwi and all lol. I know some kiwis, total nutters, banned for life from many places in the East Bay like bowling alleys (chucking balls at other people's lanes, trying to hit balls with other balls), the Le Mans (I told those guys it's not a bumper car ride), a few golf courses (throwing clubs at the balls from some distance instead of putting), etc etc.
> 
> I'm totally getting pet insurance though.


ya know what? be a little paranoid...there is nothing safe in this world....but in terms of odds?

you have more of a chance your dog will need surgery due to eating your socks than anything to do with raw feeding.

does it happen? yes. it does.

not as often as dogs eating sweatpants, rocks, sticks, stones, bottles, contents of purses, wallets, pillows, and that's all i can think of for now....but the number one cause of abdominal surgery emergencies are because of sock eating.

so, be like me, the russian redhead...throw caution to the wind, take a shot of your favourite liquor or beer and feed the dog what your dog needs to eat....what is species appropriate. you will never look back.


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## taem (Oct 29, 2011)

magicre said:


> ya know what? be a little paranoid...there is nothing safe in this world....but in terms of odds?
> 
> you have more of a chance your dog will need surgery due to eating your socks than anything to do with raw feeding.
> 
> ...


You know what it is? Too much information. I remember in junior high we read Steinbeck's The Pearl and had to write an essay on the theme "ignorance is bliss." I think having a dog is like that. When I was a kid I had my dogs and they went with me everywhere, did everything, they never had a single problem their whole lives, not so much as a single cut or scrape, and they went duck hunting all the time (toy poodles that point are a huuuuge hit with hunters). I just didn't know to be worried.

Now, I'm all grown up, and I'm determined to research everything and be prepared for anything. The result? Scared witless. Everywhere I look there's something that can kill my dog, from algae in the water to foxtails in the brushes to tea tree oil in the shampoo to the whites in the eggs (and they call it the perfect food!) and the hops in the beer. And so here I am wrapping aluminum foil around all my power cords.

It's so much better being a kid.


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## Dude and Bucks Mamma (May 14, 2011)

taem said:


> I've never known a poodle that's a stupid eater, and I've known lots of poodles, so that gives me hope. Our toys, we used to give them short ribs, sliced choking hazard thin, like half an inch or less (galbi sized, if you know korean cuisine), and they'd gnaw on those things like princess-y little girls licking a lollipop. All their lives they never choked on anything, never came close.
> 
> Not like my sister's lab. Omfg. Sometimes Marz will put his mouth on furniture like "can I swallow that?" Every lab I've known is like that. I don't think it's just my experience, I was reading Jean Donaldson's Culture Clash (fantastic read) and she has a chart of the universe according to humans vs dogs, and at the end of the list she has "Rocks" which to a human is a "rock" and to a dog is a "rock" unless it's a Lab in which case it's "food". That cracked me up. But seriously, Labs, wow are those guys the masters of mayhem. I'm surprised they haven't gone extinct.


Well, Buck is a bluetick coonhound who is 55 lbs and will top out around 80 once he's all filled out. I think blueticks have a slightly lab-ish brain when it comes to food... Hahaha

Dude, on the other hand, is my careful eater. He is like Xellil's Rebel. Old lady at a tea party, indeed...


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## sozzle (May 18, 2011)

magicre said:


> you have more of a chance your dog will need surgery due to eating your socks than anything to do with raw feeding.
> 
> 
> 
> not as often as dogs eating sweatpants, rocks, sticks, stones, bottles, contents of purses, wallets, pillows, and that's all i can think of for now..


Excuse me - but MY dog has never eaten anything remotely like that. 
My boy is very aloof and obviously far too posh to be seen eating sweatpants, stones or sticks....in fact he doesn't even know what to do with a stick and only has a vague idea that a ball is for chasing!

(he did try and roll over a dead rabbit yesterday which I thought was a very 'feral' thing to do...especially in public!)


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## Maligatork9 (Feb 8, 2012)

Unfortunately I can't say the same... Mine ate a pair (maybe 2) of my socks a couple years ago! Talk about a freak out. Luckily there was no blockage... She um, gave them back from both ends... How nice of her.


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## hmbutler (Aug 4, 2011)

taem said:


> Well I'm not going to shy away from doing raw meaty bone, I am still committed to that. Ultimately I take great comfort in the fact that a lot of people are doing it and if dogs were dying left and right we'd be hearing all about it. I've been doing as much research as anyone possibly can on this I think, and so far, this case and Xelil's case are the only incidents I know of.
> 
> Still scary though. I really don't want to be that one in a million where it goes horribly wrong.* If puppy so much as coughs during that first feeding I'll freak, I know I will.* I remember when my first niece was born, everytime she cried at night I was screaming at everyone that we needed to go to the emergency room immediately.


Here's an example from just last night - I was watching my dog, who has been on raw for about 6-7 months now, eating some turkey wings... he's chewing away, then starts making a coughing/regurgitating noise. But he ignores it and keeps chewing. He did it about 5 times, like the piece in his throat was stuck but wasnt willing to stop chewing the piece in his mouth... guess he just figured the next piece would push the first one down. He took a few second breather between the second and third wings to swallow properly, then kept eating. He was fine. But I was watching over him like a hawk, wondering how I was gonna hold him still so I could stick my hands down his throat. But he didnt need it, he soldiered on and got through it no probs :thumb:

A while back he swallowed an entire chicken quarter whole (it was smaller than the usual size I fed), and about 30 mins or so later he chucked it back up, then ate it properly, chewing this time. They're very resiliant animals - let your pup cough and work out what needs to be done on its own, but be ready to intervene just in case. But I can guarantee that more often than not, your dog will sort it out :wink:


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## dustinshaw98 (Feb 22, 2012)

So sorry to hear this... but raw whole chicken have never been a problem with my dog's raw diet.


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## Chocx2 (Nov 16, 2009)

I think your problem is the corn cob I know several friends that have labs and they all got blockage from eating corn cobs. The unfortunate thing is you always see cobs on the side of the road and labs are notorious for eating anything....lol

I have to tell you also that my dogs found someones loot on a walk in the buffer preserve, fish heads and bones that had been there some time.....they ate it all, no problems...lol scared the bajesus out of me lol


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## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

What's awful is some people give their dogs corn cobs as a chew toy. Rawhides would be better.

Everyone should know how to do the doggie Heimleich. I think whitelo posted the instructions once. Weirdly, the day after I read her instructions snorkels got a piece of kidney stuck in her throat and I flipped her upside down and sqeezed. it seemed to work!


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## Donna Little (May 31, 2011)

My guys have gotten choked several times. When you have 10 dogs the odds are probably a little higher that you'll have to deal with choking at one point or another. Especially considering all of mine are food vacuums. 
Every single time it was a boneless piece. I watched Camden one day pick up all the food in the bowl as fast as lightning, and I knew he hadn't had time to swallow. Then he apparently did swallow with ALL of it in there at the same time and he choked. I gave him a squeeze, it started coming back up, and the little fool was trying to eat it again before it came out of his mouth. Now Briana did swallow a whole frozen neck one time and looked a little surprised afterward but she didn't choke. Just looked at me like, "Where did my food just go?" 
I've been feeding raw close to a year, with 10 dogs and all is still well so try not to freak and just enjoy the ride.


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## shellbell (Sep 24, 2011)

Chocx2 said:


> I think your problem is the corn cob I know several friends that have labs and they all got blockage from eating corn cobs. The unfortunate thing is you always see cobs on the side of the road and labs are notorious for eating anything....lol
> 
> I have to tell you also that my dogs found someones loot on a walk in the buffer preserve, fish heads and bones that had been there some time.....they ate it all, no problems...lol scared the bajesus out of me lol


Ugh, yes, I know several fellow lab owners who have dealt with blockages from corncobs, or they have been lucky enough to induce vomiting and the corncob came up. Silly labs, they will eat anything.

I took a dog first aid class awhile back and was shown how to do the Heimlich on a stuffed dog. Last time I was at my vet, I asked him to show me how to do it on a live dog (Tux). He showed me how it would be done, but told me he would be very surprised if I ever had to use it. He never has. He said dogs are very efficient about getting things out of their throats themselves. Still good to know though.


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## taem (Oct 29, 2011)

hmbutler said:


> he's chewing away, then starts making a coughing/regurgitating noise. But he ignores it and keeps chewing. He did it about 5 times, like the piece in his throat was stuck but wasnt willing to stop chewing the piece in his mouth...
> 
> A while back he swallowed an entire chicken quarter whole


You must have a Lab!


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

taem said:


> You know what it is? Too much information. I remember in junior high we read Steinbeck's The Pearl and had to write an essay on the theme "ignorance is bliss." I think having a dog is like that. When I was a kid I had my dogs and they went with me everywhere, did everything, they never had a single problem their whole lives, not so much as a single cut or scrape, and they went duck hunting all the time (toy poodles that point are a huuuuge hit with hunters). I just didn't know to be worried.
> 
> Now, I'm all grown up, and I'm determined to research everything and be prepared for anything. The result? Scared witless. Everywhere I look there's something that can kill my dog, from algae in the water to foxtails in the brushes to tea tree oil in the shampoo to the whites in the eggs (and they call it the perfect food!) and the hops in the beer. And so here I am wrapping aluminum foil around all my power cords.
> 
> It's so much better being a kid.


don't know if i agree with that, other than the innocence and oblivion as children.....

algae is actually good for your dogs....but that's not what you were talking about. ah, i remember the pearl and i remember ignorance is bliss, too...until i realise the dog food i fed my dogs killed all four of them.

then, the innocence fled and i was left empty and bereft as my heart dog slipped into liver toxicity....at age 12 and died at age 13 on the same day as his sister. the rest followed one per year.

i have one left from that pack. she was ten. and my eyes were open and i had no more tears left when i realised what i had done. my hand to their mouth from that bag.

so what good did innocence do...when i was a kid with my first dog...he ate g'd knows what..including cooked steak bones that were leftover...and he lived until 16 and is buried at my childhood home....when my parents sold the house, the dog was a condition....and he remembered me until the year he died. 

now? now i'm not so innocent. i opened pandora's box and found out a few things. my dogs could have lived a healthier life...maybe not longer, but healthier.

in two years, i've seen the vet once. once. that has to count for something.

before that, i saw the vet three to five times a year for one thing or another, usually gastric or ears or something....

that you're determined to research everything might seem daunting, but what's that saying? the truth will set you free and the other one, knowledge is power....

everywhere i look, there is something that can kill me and my dogs. i use the brain the good Lord gave me and sift through what makes sense and what doesn't.

what makes sense to me is feeding a dog something that looks like what it was when it was alive. not little coloured pieces of things with additives because the goodness was extruded out or made into a slurry.


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

sozzle said:


> Excuse me - but MY dog has never eaten anything remotely like that.
> My boy is very aloof and obviously far too posh to be seen eating sweatpants, stones or sticks....in fact he doesn't even know what to do with a stick and only has a vague idea that a ball is for chasing!
> 
> (he did try and roll over a dead rabbit yesterday which I thought was a very 'feral' thing to do...especially in public!)


trying to roll over a dead rabbit does NOT count as posh. especially when he should be eating the dead rabbit. doesn't he know not to play with his food?


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## taem (Oct 29, 2011)

magicre said:


> don't know if i agree with that, other than the innocence and oblivion as children.....
> 
> algae is actually good for your dogs....but that's not what you were talking about. ah, i remember the pearl and i remember ignorance is bliss, too...until i realise the dog food i fed my dogs killed all four of them...
> 
> what makes sense to me is feeding a dog something that looks like what it was when it was alive. not little coloured pieces of things with additives because the goodness was extruded out or made into a slurry.


I hear you. Our toys were kibble fed, and they lived longish (16 was the earliest death, oldest lived 19 years), and never had any health problems. So I didn't have the heartaches you did. Even so, I'm wracked by guilt, knowing I didn't do the best I could for my pups. What makes me sick is, my family immigrated from Korea and both my parents had lots of dogs growing up, and all those dogs ate raw meaty bone. They were basically fed like Lonsdale recommends.

But when we came here, the vets told us NOT to do that, that kibble is the way to go. My parents assumed Americans must know better about such things so we fed kibble. Thankfully, my mom did feed some raw meaty bone because she thought it was unnatural for dogs to go entirely without meat and bone, which probably explains why they had good teeth.

This time I'm determined to do it right. I just wish I could convince my sister to feed raw. If she did maybe Marz wouldn't be chewing on her expensive shoes. My other sister thinks Marz must be gay because he has fabulous fashion sense, he ignores the cheap sneakers and goes for the Jimmy Chius. You did NOT want to be there when he got hold of the Birkin, Marz is lucky he's a dog, if a human had torn her Birkin apart that human would have been arse-whupped up and down main street. (My sis has unbelievable upper body strength from negotiating NYC with two strollers.) Marz is a lab of course lol.

On and there's one type of algae, blue-green? that is toxic to poodles. Knowledge is probably good but not for a paranoid like me.


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## Sprocket (Oct 4, 2011)

hmbutler said:


> Here's an example from just last night - I was watching my dog, who has been on raw for about 6-7 months now, eating some turkey wings... he's chewing away, then starts making a coughing/regurgitating noise. But he ignores it and keeps chewing. He did it about 5 times, like the piece in his throat was stuck but wasnt willing to stop chewing the piece in his mouth... guess he just figured the next piece would push the first one down. He took a few second breather between the second and third wings to swallow properly, then kept eating. He was fine. But I was watching over him like a hawk, wondering how I was gonna hold him still so I could stick my hands down his throat. But he didnt need it, he soldiered on and got through it no probs :thumb:
> 
> A while back he swallowed an entire chicken quarter whole (it was smaller than the usual size I fed), and about 30 mins or so later he chucked it back up, then ate it properly, chewing this time. They're very resiliant animals - let your pup cough and work out what needs to be done on its own, but be ready to intervene just in case. But I can guarantee that more often than not, your dog will sort it out :wink:


Gunner does this often. He will chew a big peice, let a little go down his throat, then chew it more, then let it slide. You can hear it make crazy sounds in his throat as he chews the next inch or so, but he manages to get it down every time. Mikey barely chews chicken wings. A few crunches and he swallows it. 

They freak me out sometimes.


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

well, i see knowledge as power, because now i know there is a blue green algae that is toxic to poodles. did not know that and, if ever i got a poodle and fed algae, it would be yet another in a series of oops.

i am determined to not make the mistakes i have made but i have and i will.....i didn't feed enough dietary fat and almost had a bald pug. easily rectified, but until i learned it for myself, i tried all kinds of things...

what i didn't do was continue feeding menadione bisulfate....what i didn't do was continue to feed processed foods.....i don't eat them. why would my dogs? 

and that, besides food that had an ingredient in it that was not only toxic, but over time, deadly....is what finally decided me that my vet didn't know squat about nutrition.....and i should have known. they take the same three credit course in nutrition that docs do in medical school, only human form, instead of canine form...

and vet student courses are paid for by pet food companies....human food courses are paid for by pharmaceutical companies....neither doctor comes out of school with much knowledge.

so it's up to us to be our own advocates and our dogs....for no one else will. in this case, your mother was right.....tell her i said so.


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## Mondo (Dec 20, 2011)

Sprocket said:


> Gunner does this often. He will chew a big peice, let a little go down his throat, then chew it more, then let it slide. You can hear it make crazy sounds in his throat as he chews the next inch or so, but he manages to get it down every time. Mikey barely chews chicken wings. A few crunches and he swallows it.
> 
> They freak me out sometimes.


Yeah, I see a chicken foot or a pizzle disappear for a second, and then up it comes again. "Nope, not soft enough yet, chew some more and try again."

It is freaky.


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## HappyPuppy (Sep 26, 2011)

OP - maybe raw isn't for you??? My Ruby poops shards of chicken legs and will occasionally barf up the ends of chicken leg 'caps' and sometimes pork bones. If you are too worried about all of it, you should maybe just not do it.... I do worry, however, about the sharp tilapia fins and dorsal spikes - those are like needles, but she manages to get them down.


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## MollyWoppy (Mar 19, 2010)

I was outside the other night with the local dogs. I had managed to score 20 quail eggs and gave all the dogs one each. I should explain that Mollie is the only one on full raw, 2 pugs are on 1/2 raw, half Orijen, the rest are kibble. All the owners were going on about the shell and how worried they were that it would cut their mouths, throats and stomachs. 
So, we sat and watched 6 dogs eating quail eggs, every single one absolutely adored them. And, no problems at all with cut mouths/throats/stomachs. 
I was talking to my friend tonight who's pug is on half raw. She was going on about Lola eating a bone that had been in the garden for goodness knows how long and how it was absolutely rancid, and how Lola's face stank afterwards. And, then she said how surprised she was that Lola was fine, the rancid meat posed no problems at all. (I smiled smugly .
So, all I can say is that dog's are a hardy bunch, they generally know what they are doing.
There are common sense things where you do have to protect them from themselves, but as long as you take it slowly, watch your pup, and get to know how it eats, a chewer like my dog, or a gulper like Lola and take it from there. 
The more I learn about it, the more I realise the golden rule of raw feeding should be 'know thy dog'.


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