# Raw recipies by filth



## Filth

RawFedDogs said:


> You are welcome to post your recipies in another thread if you wish. Expect to be questioned as to why you feel it's necessary to feed vegetables, grains, dairy products, and fruits. :smile:


Thank you.  

Any question is welcome, and I'm sure that we will have the answer for all of them. 

Here are some of our meals:

This one is mine:

-Beef larynx + rice, some veggies and yogurt.











Grivana's meals:

-Chicken organs and chicken breast, + rice, tomato, pepper, and some sour cream











-beef t-bone steak + carrot, yogurt and some seeds










Wiliana's meal:

-Beef tail, beef tongue, beef liver + some veggies, oat flakes and goat white cheese












Diana M.'s meal:

-Beef tongue, heart, larynx, tripe, horse meat + some veggies and fruits, sour cream and a mix of pumpkin seeds, sesame seeds, flex seeds and sunflower seeds.












Ghandi and Azra please add some of yours, I didn't have them on my computer


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## RawFedDogs

Nice looking plates of food. Why do you find it necessary to feed veggies, fruits, grains, and dairy to a dog? You know dogs are carniovres, right? Carnivores eat meat, bones, organs of a variety of animals. No need for the other stuff at all. Were did you get these recipies?


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## naturalfeddogs

What are all the seeds supposed to be for?


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## jdatwood

naturalfeddogs said:


> What are all the seeds supposed to be for?


Sounds like filth is feeding BARF and not PMR...

I have no "recipes" for our 5. We pull out meat, bones & organs and hand them to the dogs....


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## pogo

As above really what are the seeds, oats, rice, veg etc there for?


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## naturalfeddogs

jdatwood said:


> Sounds like filth is feeding BARF and not PMR...
> 
> I have no "recipes" for our 5. We pull out meat, bones & organs and hand them to the dogs....


Yea, here to. I didn't realize BARF had so much unnecesary stuff in it.


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## kady05

It's all so.. pretty! LOL. But in all seriousness, I very rarely eat vegetables and fruits myself, I'm definitely not going to start preparing them for my dogs.


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## xellil

Can I come eat at your house? 

I tried cooking for my dog, a few years ago after the tainted food thing. As someone who hates spending the time putting something in a crock pot, I hate to say I was not as devoted as so many of you and it didn't last more than a few days.


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## Liz

Bowls look very nice. Our dogs, being carnivores do perfect on meat, bones and organ. Everything else is either undigestible or unnecessary. Looks like you are a very caring owner to take so much time on your dogs food. Welcome.


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## Ania's Mommy

Wowzers! You sure go above and beyond! Beautiful. If only my own food looked as appetizing... Thanks for sharing.


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## jdatwood

Ania's Mommy said:


> If only my own food looked as appetizing...


It should with that amazing garden of yours...


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## minnieme

Ania's Mommy said:


> Wowzers! You sure go above and beyond! Beautiful. If only my own food looked as appetizing... Thanks for sharing.


LOL, I was thinking the same -- my meals never look that tasty!!!


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## JayJayisme

Here's one of my favorite recipes:

*Chicken*

_Ingredients:_

Chicken

_Directions:_

1. Remove whole piece of raw chicken from Ziploc bag. 

2. Throw on ground in front of dog.

3. Put remaining chicken back in fridge.

4. Wash hands and go watch TV.

:biggrin:


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## RachelsaurusRexU

kady05 said:


> It's all so.. pretty! LOL. But in all seriousness, I very rarely eat vegetables and fruits myself, I'm definitely not going to start preparing them for my dogs.


Gosh, it really is pretty! I don't even eat meat and it's making me kinda hungry...


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## Diana M.

kady05 said:


> It's all so.. pretty! LOL. But in all seriousness, I very rarely eat vegetables and fruits myself, I'm definitely not going to start preparing them for my dogs.



I told Filth-in that does not interfere RAW with cooking
Seeds are found in our menu for the quality of their hair and skin. These are all oil seeds, sunflower, pumpkin, sesame, coconut...


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## Diana M.

RawFedDogs said:


> Nice looking plates of food. Why do you find it necessary to feed veggies, fruits, grains, and dairy to a dog? You know dogs are carniovres, right? Carnivores eat meat, bones, organs of a variety of animals. No need for the other stuff at all. Were did you get these recipies?


These are our recipes, and we are very proud of them 
Why We drop fruit and vegetables in meals?
We do not feed our dogs only RAW because I think that it is impossible to imitate nature. Dogs need the stomach contents of prey, bacteria, in nature they eat some fruit,.... Because we interfere fruits and vegetables with meat and bones.
We do not have opportunities to give them live chicken , so we strive to complement their diet.


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## Diana M.

JayJayisme said:


> Here's one of my favorite recipes:
> 
> *Chicken*
> 
> _Ingredients:_
> 
> Chicken
> 
> _Directions:_
> 
> 1. Remove whole piece of raw chicken from Ziploc bag.
> 
> 2. Throw on ground in front of dog.
> 
> 3. Put remaining chicken back in fridge.
> 
> 4. Wash hands and go watch TV.
> 
> :biggrin:


It makes sense 
But where's the fun?


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## JayJayisme

Diana M. said:


> Seeds are found in our menu for the quality of their hair and skin. These are all oil seeds, sunflower, pumpkin, sesame, coconut...


Coconut seeds? A coconut is a seed. So there is a whole coconut in there? :wink:

In all seriousness, seeds have very little bioavailability for a dog. The best thing for their coat is animal fat with Omega-3s (i.e. grass fed beef, lamb, bison, pastured chicken, etc.). Coconut oil might work too but the actual seeds are pretty useless to a dog. They are barely useful to a human and we, at least, have teeth that can grind them and digestive enzymes that can break them down. Dogs don't.


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## Ania's Mommy

Diana M. said:


> These are our recipes, and we are very proud of them
> Why We drop fruit and vegetables in meals?
> We do not feed our dogs only RAW because I think that it is impossible to imitate nature. Dogs need the stomach contents of prey, bacteria, in nature they eat some fruit,.... Because we interfere fruits and vegetables with meat and bones.
> We do not have opportunities to give them live chicken , so we strive to complement their diet.


I don't personally believe that items other than meat, bones, and organs are necessary. But if what you have pictured is what you feed, you're feeding a much better diet than most.


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## JayJayisme

Diana M. said:


> It makes sense
> But where's the fun?


Did you see number 4, i.e. TV?

Oh yeah, and watching them make tiny little poops that barely have an odor thanks to the absence of useless ingredients in their diet. :biggrin:


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## Diana M.

JayJayisme said:


> Coconut seeds? A coconut is a seed. So there is a whole coconut in there? :wink:
> 
> In all seriousness, seeds have very little bioavailability for a dog. The best thing for their coat is animal fat with Omega-3s (i.e. grass fed beef, lamb, bison, pastured chicken, etc.). Coconut oil might work too but the actual seeds are pretty useless to a dog. They are barely useful to a human and we, at least, have teeth that can grind them and digestive enzymes that can break them down. Dogs don't.


The seeds are ground, we know that dogs do not digest it.
I apologize for the coconut... not seeds, I just recited by habit


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## Diana M.

Ania's Mommy said:


> I don't personally believe that items other than meat, bones, and organs are necessary. But if what you have pictured is what you feed, you're feeding a much better diet than most.


Oh, yeah, that's what they eat.
On another forum, we have a topic only with recipes, menus and photos.


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## CorgiPaws

Looks awesome! We feed PMR instead of barf for a few reasons but looks like you're feeding your dogs better than most people do!


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## 3Musketeers

Guys, can I move in? You'll only need to prepare an extra plate per day for mee :biggrin:


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## spook

*Food*

_Searching for the best dog food for our dogs is like searching for the holy grail. A significant amount of myth, confusion, hype, mis-information and unfounded research exists in developing the ideal dog food. Every manufacturer claims to have developed the ideal balance and complete food. The reality is that every one of these fabricated menu choices CAN’T be the ideal formula, because it is quite evident that the formula doesn’t exist. Why? Because no one person knows the perfect way to feed a dog. Is it proper to feed a dog a grain based diet? Is it appropriate to heat process the ingredients to render it SAFE from bacterial contamination? Is it sensible to add harmful ingredients in order to make it more palatable? Is it logical that a bag of dry kibble dog food can stay FRESH for 6 months with the bag left open? Is is harmful for your dog to consume a raw, unprocessed food source (like a BARF Diet)?

We can all speculate as to what the best food choice would be for dogs but it all comes down to common sense. Our philosophy is based on common sense, testimonials, and a willingness to weigh the benefits and advantages against the potential risks. It is my contention that the research has been conducted with the intention of trying to find ways to make the digestive capacity of a carnivore function more as an omnivore.
It becomes a challenge to find a suitable meal that will allow for growth and reproduction. 

An increasing number of dog owners are demanding a CHANGE to improve the health of their pets.
_....:tea::amen:


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## minnieme

Unless you are Rob Mueller, you should cite him for his blog article :wink:

But I think we all agree with that passage -- it definitely holds true. We're just at odds with the whole fruits/veggies/supplements already found in meats thing. BARF is still far better than what the average pet owner feeds though!


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## Diana M.

minnieme said:


> Unless you are Rob Mueller, you should cite him for his blog article :wink:
> 
> But I think we all agree with that passage -- it definitely holds true. We're just at odds with the whole fruits/veggies/supplements already found in meats thing. BARF is still far better than what the average pet owner feeds though!


Not really ... For example: fibers that the dog got out of the stomach contents of prey, or berries in Nature.
Whith grain we only reduces mass in our dogs, they are represented here in a very small %


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## spook

RawFedDogs said:


> Nice looking plates of food. Why do you find it necessary to feed veggies, fruits, grains, and dairy to a dog? You know dogs are carniovres, right? Carnivores eat meat, bones, organs of a variety of animals. No need for the other stuff at all. Were did you get these recipies?


_You must be kidding with these issues .... is not it!
_arty:


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## minnieme

Diana M. said:


> Not really ... For example: fibers that the dog got out of the stomach contents of prey, or berries in Nature.
> Whith grain we only reduces mass in our dogs, they are represented here in a very small %


I don't think that response was meant for me, Diana M...??? 

Anyway, there's lotslotslotssss of research out there that shows that wolves don't eat the stomach contents of prey. Myths About Raw: Do wolves eat stomach contents of prey? <---- Check that out. Although it's a site that promotes PMR, they cite all of their work so you can check out their sources too. :smile:

Also: can someone link to that post with the awesome pics from the coyote attack??? Where it left all the guts behind and a portion of the leg? Those pics were PHENOMENAL in illustrating this point.


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## RawFedDogs

Diana M. said:


> These are our recipes, and we are very proud of them


I agree with others that have said you feed your dogs much better than the average dog owner. There is not a kibble made that approaches the nutrition in the diet you feed. :smile:



> We do not feed our dogs only RAW because I think that it is impossible to imitate nature.


I don't think it is impossible. Most of us here have been doing it for many years. I myself have been feeding ONLY meat, bones, and organs for over 9 years.



> Dogs need the stomach contents of prey, bacteria, in nature they eat some fruit,.... Because we interfere fruits and vegetables with meat and bones.


Actually, It's been proven that they don't eat stomach contents. I will show that later in this tread when I answer another post. It is one of those myths that they do. Even when I feed my own dogs whole rabbits, they eat everything BUT not the stomach contents and intestines. They open up the stomach and empty it before eating it just as wild wolves do with their prey.



> We do not have opportunities to give them live chicken , so we strive to complement their diet.


What nutrients are available to the dog in the non-animal portions of the diet you feed that is not in meat, bones, and organs? In what way are you complementing their diet by feeding those?


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## RawFedDogs

spook said:


> _Searching for the best dog food for our dogs is like searching for the holy grail. A significant amount of myth, confusion, hype, mis-information and unfounded research exists in developing the ideal dog food. Every manufacturer claims to have developed the ideal balance and complete food. The reality is that every one of these fabricated menu choices CAN’T be the ideal formula, because it is quite evident that the formula doesn’t exist._


 

If you are talking about commercial food, I agree with you completely.




> Why? Because no one person knows the perfect way to feed a dog.


Whenever I need an answer to a statement like this, I always look to nature. Nature always provides each species with the nutrients it needs to thrive. If not, the species goes extinct. Nature equips each species with the components in his body to extract the needed nutrients from thier food.



> Is it proper to feed a dog a grain based diet?


Of course not. I don't think either of us have ever see a wolf or dog grazing in a rice patty, or a corn field or wheat field. :smile:



> Is it appropriate to heat process the ingredients to render it SAFE from bacterial contamination?


Looking at nature again, of course wild animals do not have the ability to cook their food. Humans are the only species that does that.



> Is is harmful for your dog to consume a raw, unprocessed food source (like a BARF Diet)?


Again of course not BUT there are a not of unnecessary ingredients in the BARF diet. Dogs have no nutritional need for plant matter in their diet. They don't eat plant matter in the wild other than some berries when in season. They eat those because the sugar in the tastes good, just like cake, and ice cream tasts good to us but has no nutritional value. :smile:



> We can all speculate as to what the best food choice would be for dogs but it all comes down to common sense.


It's not difficult and there is no speculation about what a wild wolf or dog eats in nature. This is well known scientific fact. Again, nature provides each species with what it needs nutritionwise for a long healthy life.



> Our philosophy is based on common sense, testimonials, and a willingness to weigh the benefits and advantages against the potential risks.


None of these things are necessary to determine what a dog needs in his diet. Again, look at the wolf in nature. That will tell you all you need to know. No amount of testimonials can change that.



> It is my contention that the research has been conducted with the intention of trying to find ways to make the digestive capacity of a carnivore function more as an omnivore.


You can not turn a carnivore into an omnivore by feeding it omnivore food. A dog is a carnivore from the tip of his nose to his anus. If you look closely at a dog's body, inside and out, there is no question he is a carnivore.



> It becomes a challenge to find a suitable meal that will allow for growth and reproduction.


No, its not a challenge at all. A dog needs meat, bones, and organs and nothing else. There are hundreds if not thousands of raw feeding breederss who have no problems breeding. Again, look to nature.


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## minnieme

In regards to wolves/dogs/coyotes/etc eating stomach contents of prey -- awesome pics that refute this:

*graphic pics ahead; not for the squeamish*

http://dogfoodchat.com/forum/pictures/2200-raw-feeding-its-finest-caution-graphic-photos.html


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## RawFedDogs

spook said:


> _You must be kidding with these issues .... is not it!
> _arty:


No, I'm completely serious. I have an 11 1/2 year old Great Dane who hasn't eaten any plant matter in over 9 years. I have an almost 7 year old Great Dane that has never eaten any plant matter in his life. Neither show any nutritional deficiencies. Dogs are carnivores. Carnivores eat meat. If an animal eats meat and plants we call it an omnivore. For a carnivore, plant material is completely unnecessary.


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## Diana M.

We always start from nature, but ....
Why do people eat meat? Man has to eat whole grains, fresh fruits and vegetables, not meat and NOT cooked food.

How many of us can afford a live animal for a dog meal?

Here`s just one link on the fruit that I just put for my friends ... Nature ...

Wolves eating berries! - YouTube


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## RawFedDogs

Diana M. said:


> Not really ... For example: fibers that the dog got out of the stomach contents of prey, or berries in Nature.
> Whith grain we only reduces mass in our dogs, they are represented here in a very small %


Wild wolves/dogs don't eat stomach contents of prey. 

From David Mech's Wolves: Behavior, Ecology and Conservation (2003):

_"Wolves usually tear into the body cavity of large prey and...consume the larger internal organs, such as lungs, heart and liver. The large rumen [, which is one of the main stomach chambers in large ruminant herbivores,]...is usually punctured during removal and its contents spilled. The vegetation in the intestinal tract is of no interest to the wolves, but the stomach lining and intestinal wall are consumed, and their contents further strewn about the kill site."_-p123

_"To grow and maintain their own bodies, wolves need to ingest all the major parts of their herbivorous prey, except the plants in the digestive system." _-p124


From: Foraging and Feeding Ecology of the Gray Wolf (Canis lupus): Lessons from Yellowstone National Park, Wyoming, USA, 
Daniel R. Stahler, Douglas W. Smith and Debra S. Guernsey 

_"Wolves do not feed on the contents of the rumen; so this, along with the larger unbreakable bones and some of the hide, are often the only things remaining when wolves and associated scavengers are done."_

These are well respected scientists and have spent many years researching the subject. David Mech spent 30 years observing and recording wild wolf behavior. I think he knows what he is talking about. He has written several books and many many research papers. If he says wolves don't eat stomach contents you can bet your last dollar that wolves don't eat stomach contents. :smle:


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## spook

_One of the most often discussed questions from customers involves talking about the dog’s stools because this is the outcome (no pun intended) or the final result, should I say, of the feeding process. We manufacture a raw frozen meat diet and the BAROMETER used to determine the success of the conversion to this controversial philosophy is the condition of the stool. The color, consistency, and odor all play a role in the determination of the success. It is perfectly NORMAL for the stool to be a chalky white consistency, obviously more firm than a stool formed on a dry heat processed diet, and odor free (almost!). The stool tells the story because these three factors are the result of a more complete combustion process. The nutritional advantage is gained because the ingredients are more completely absorbed in the digestive system in a shorter period of time. This results in less toxin buildup and a significant reduction in stool volume. You know how important this is when you own a larger breed dog.

The end product (stool) is a chalky white , and has a rather hard consistency – because all that is left is the residue of ash and fiber. All the other ingredients are being utilized and goes to work to gain a nutritional advantage. So the next time your dog takes his/her morning constitution, be sure to check the stool and use it as a barometer and see how it compares to a dog that is being fed an artificial food diet. You will be amazed at the difference and the long term benefit will be rewarding.
Because of all this .. I think it is a good addition to our dogs give meat ... vegetables, fruits ..._:amen:


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## PDXdogmom

I'm just shaking my head here in disbelief. Here is the OP sharing a very nutritional diet and the rigidity shown in so much of the feedback is phenomenal. If a poster doesn't feed* exactly* how you feed, then they get called on it and chastised. Disappointing to say the least.


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## CavePaws

Wow! Looks very delicious. Your hounds eat great. My pups just get a variety of animal meats / bones / organs. I do give them treats of whatever the heck too...But dang, your pack is really eating some gourmet stuff there. Lots of good red meats. 

Now, if this is working for your dogs then that is wonderful. Personally, for my pups, this diet would not work as well as only meat, bones, and organs. The grains would give my pack horrible gas and complimented with the dairy, well they would poop me out of the house. Lol, but, I have to commend you on the variety you are feeding. It all looks lovely and I would like to see some more recipes/pics. We don't have very many Barf feeders representing the Barf world around here. So, welcome to the raw feeding club of DFC.


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## Liz

I haven't heard any chastising. Different points of view are out there but many people have also complimented this diet as far above that of the average dog. It is silly that no one seems to be allowed their opinion without causing someone else to be insulted. I think their diet is far above the average and their dog's must do well. I am glad for that, just like I am glad when someone upgrades from Ol Roy to a better kibble - are they at the pinnacle of canine nutrition? No. But they are dong better and their dogs will thank them for that. Lest not get all prissy about everything someone says, no one has been harsh or rude.


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## Diana M.

The question is: Do you believe someone's words or your own eyes?

Wolves Eating a Deer Part 2 - YouTube

Wolves eating elk - YouTube


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## JayJayisme

Diana M. said:


> We always start from nature, but ....
> Why do people eat meat? Man has to eat whole grains, fresh fruits and vegetables, not meat and NOT cooked food.


Oh jeez, here we go again. *Humans do not have to eat any grains.* Humans lived for millions of years, up until the relatively recent advent of agriculture about 10,000 years ago, with almost no grains in the diet. The introduction of grains to the human diet was an economic move, not a health requirement. Read this for more on this...

http://thepaleodiet.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/02/Cerealgrainhumanitydoublesword.pdf

As for fruits and vegetables, humans are omnivores and can benefit from the consumption of these plants. Dogs cannot unless they are processed to death. Whether they are actually necessary in the human diet or not is still a matter of great debate. There are a number of hunter-gatherer societies that thrived for thousands of years on a diet that was primarily meat. Conversely, there are no vegetarian societies in human history. None, nada. Not one. Veganism is a modern fad, there is no historical or anthropological basis for it. I'm NOT criticizing it. I know some people swear by it and it has helped them in one way or another. But there is no history of veganism in humanity until now.

There are some people who today eat completely raw diets, including their meat. The "raw Paleolithic" diet, for example, is known to cure "incurable" diseases. But there is some merit to cooking certain things as well, especially plant matter, as cooking exposes some nutrients not otherwise available from the plant in the raw form.

All that aside, what does the human omnivorous diet have to do with the canine carnivorous diet?


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## CavePaws

Honestly, Filth, I think you should make a thread in the Dog Food Recipes section now. Just take your original post and paste that into a new thread. That way, you have a clean slate with just your recipes. I wouldn't bother replying to confrontation in the new thread. Use this one to continue the debate. You've got a nice thing going here and I think it would be cool to see a few more full posts of your recipes. In their very own thread housed by the Dog Food Recipes section. :wink:


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## JayJayisme

PDXdogmom said:


> I'm just shaking my head here in disbelief. Here is the OP sharing a very nutritional diet and the rigidity shown in so much of the feedback is phenomenal. If a poster doesn't feed* exactly* how you feed, then they get called on it and chastised. Disappointing to say the least.


Is it chastising if someone makes erroneous statements and others try to correct that information? This happens almost every time someone posts their version of BARF. What's the big deal? Should we sit on our hands and let the false information stand?

I agree that the OP is feeding their dogs better than most people do, but if we see things in that diet that are known to cause issues in some dogs, shouldn't it at least be mentioned here? The OP is going to do whatever she/he thinks is best in the end. But it's possible that we might open the mind of someone who is "so close, yet so far" to help them improve on an already good step towards an optimum diet.


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## wiliana

This started to be interesting 
First...for people that are shocked with nice pictures...we are doing that really for fun, and before we met on another forum and started theme about recepies, noone of us haven't been in this "photo mode" before serving. As Diana said... where is the fun arty: ... It is not hard to put things in a bowl...takes mabye one minute more than to throw food to dog.

Further... Mabye Im wrong, but some of comments here about those "recepies" are like when Im thinking about people who are feeding kibble..."Oh, look at those people, thay don't know anything about feeding, I'm genious and I only know the whole truth about nature" :biggrin:
So, now Im thinking coud be better to change name of this theme to "Pray Vs Arranged" :becky:

OK... dogs are canivores, all of us here knows that. All of us will agree that meet is something withouth they can't live healthy. They need everything from the animal, from meet to bones. All of our dogs are getting that. 

Difference in our oppinions are that some of you think that dog doesent need anything exept animal parts, and others think that they need something more...I would rather say- they don't need anything exept prey, but it's better to add some ingredients.

Why? I watched my dog...in one part of life he eated only meet cause he didn't want anything else. He eated different parts of beef and didn't want to eat organs... Why?- Ask him  Everything with a bone he loved, and Barf. Barf that Im buying here is without grains or vegetables, but with a big part of uncleaned tripes with herbs that beef eated. He was very healthy but skinny, and coat was good, but now is better when Im preparing him what you have seen on photos.

So, we had that little problem about how to encrease his weight cause he is eating smaller ammounts of food than he needs. I started with experiments and found this kind of meals as the best solution for him. Weight and musculature are ideal, he is very healthy and blood picture ( I don' t know did I say right- when you take blood and send for analyse :redface: ) is perfect, coat is better than ever, poop almost the same as on strict meat diet ( a little bit bigger, but still very small :tongue: ) , energy level is always high, teeth like pearls (offcourse-bones are our best friends :becky: ) ...

I wrote my example instead of long convincig am I right or not.

Uh...so many posts in meantime... I will post this and then I will read rest


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## Diana M.

Our dogs are the only measure of us as to whether and where we are wrong. We look at dogs, we learn along with them from day to day, menus tailor each dog individually, his personal needs,....
For example Wiliana threw the dog grains, in front of the exhibition, to get the weight, my bitch I threw grains of pregnancy that can not be gained too much, Filth's puppy needs more protein while increasing means-getting more meat, etc. .... The menus are only there as guidelines, ideas, every owner knows your dog best, and prepare a meal for just for him.


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## CavePaws

[sarcasm]Oh, how fun this place would be if we all had the same _opinion_.[/sarcasm]


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## PDXdogmom

wiliana said:


> This started to be interesting
> First...for people that are shocked with nice pictures...we are doing that really for fun, and before we met on another forum and started theme about recepies, noone of us haven't been in this "photo mode" before serving. As Diana said... where is the fun arty: ... It is not hard to put things in a bowl...takes mabye one minute more than to throw food to dog.
> 
> Further... Mabye Im wrong, but some of comments here about those "recepies" are like when Im thinking about people who are feeding kibble..."Oh, look at those people, thay don't know anything about feeding, I'm genious and I only know the whole truth about nature" :biggrin:
> So, now Im thinking coud be better to change name of this theme to "Pray Vs Arranged" :becky:
> 
> OK... dogs are canivores, all of us here knows that. All of us will agree that meet is something withouth they can't live healthy. They need everything from the animal, from meet to bones. All of our dogs are getting that.
> 
> Difference in our oppinions are that some of you think that dog doesent need anything exept animal parts, and others think that they need something more...I would rather say- they don't need anything exept prey, but it's better to add some ingredients.
> 
> Why? I watched my dog...in one part of life he eated only meet cause he didn't want anything else. He eated different parts of beef and didn't want to eat organs... Why?- Ask him  Everything with a bone he loved, and Barf. Barf that Im buying here is without grains or vegetables, but with a big part of uncleaned tripes with herbs that beef eated. He was very healthy but skinny, and coat was good, but now is better when Im preparing him what you have seen on photos.
> 
> So, we had that little problem about how to encrease his weight cause he is eating smaller ammounts of food than he needs. I started with experiments and found this kind of meals as the best solution for him. Weight and musculature are ideal, he is very healthy and blood picture ( I don' t know did I say right- when you take blood and send for analyse :redface: ) is perfect, coat is better than ever, poop almost the same as on strict meat diet ( a little bit bigger, but still very small :tongue: ) , energy level is always high, teeth like pearls (offcourse-bones are our best friends :becky: ) ...
> 
> I wrote my example instead of long convincig am I right or not.
> 
> Uh...so many posts in meantime... I will post this and then I will read rest


Thank you for sharing a specific example of how you found what worked best for your dog.


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## DaViking

The Eurasian wolf eats meats, muscles, heart, liver, lungs, etc. It _does not_ eat the contents of the stomach but it does eat the liner/wall, it is highly nutritious. The Eurasian wolf do however eat smaller amounts of berries and plant matter. And in some cases a good deal of spawning trout or salmon.

I don't know why this myth about the wolf eating the contents of the stomach keeps hanging on. Being originally from Norway, where there is a big conflict between the wolf and sheep farmers, I have seen countless pictures through the years of killed sheep where the stomach content is left behind.


----------



## PDXdogmom

JayJayisme said:


> Is it chastising if someone makes erroneous statements and others try to correct that information? This happens almost every time someone posts their version of BARF. What's the big deal? Should we sit on our hands and let the false information stand?
> 
> I agree that the OP is feeding their dogs better than most people do, but if we see things in that diet that are known to cause issues in some dogs, shouldn't it at least be mentioned here? The OP is going to do whatever she/he thinks is best in the end. But it's possible that we might open the mind of someone who is "so close, yet so far" to help them improve on an already good step towards an optimum diet.


You're assuming that you possess the ultimate truth and knowledge of the perfect and optimum way to feed a dog. Not everybody agrees.


----------



## Azra maltese

RawFedDogs said:


> No, I'm completely serious. I have an 11 1/2 year old Great Dane who hasn't eaten any plant matter in over 9 years. I have an almost 7 year old Great Dane that has never eaten any plant matter in his life. Neither show any nutritional deficiencies. Dogs are carnivores. Carnivores eat meat. If an animal eats meat and plants we call it an omnivore. For a carnivore, plant material is completely unnecessary.


I just have to ask a few questions:
Do you add ANY chemical supplements, or you think that raw food contains EVERYTHING dog needs?
And, you are quoting the same author, but there are some different opinions on the net, i.e.:
"Canines, both dogs and wolves, are omnivores meaning they eat everything, unlike cats that are almost strictly carnivores. When a wolf makes a kill, the first part of the animal they eat is the viscera including the stomach contents. Since most of the animals they kill are herbivores, the stomach contents are made up almost entirely of grass and leaves as well as soil-based probiotics and digestive enzymes. Because the wolves diet is supplemented with partially digested grass, they do not need to eat grass or ‘graze’ and rarely suffer from any digestive issues."
Link is:
Why do Dogs Eat Grass


----------



## Diana M.

DaViking said:


> The Eurasian wolf eats meats, muscles, heart, liver, lungs, etc. It _does not_ eat the contents of the stomach but it does eat the liner/wall, it is highly nutritious. The Eurasian wolf do however eat smaller amounts of berries and plant matter. And in some cases a good deal of spawning trout or salmon.
> 
> I don't know why this myth about the wolf eating the contents of the stomach keeps hanging on. Being originally from Norway, where there is a big conflict between the wolf and sheep farmers, I have seen countless pictures through the years of killed sheep where the stomach content is left behind.


I posted clips that clearly prove that wolves EAT stomach contents, but they are probably against the forum rules. I don`t know how else to show you? You must see youre own eyes, anyone can write what they want...


----------



## Grivana

RawFedDogs said:


> If he says wolves don't eat stomach contents you can bet your last dollar that wolves don't eat stomach contents. :smle:


yes, but they surely likes berries ) 
Hi to everyone! Filth, bravo!!  I see that Diana gave you all answers you need 
We all know that fruits and vegetables are full of vitamins and minerals (vitamins and minerals are important for normal growth and development, help cells and organs do their jobs...). Yes, they are also in the meat but not so much. 
And it is well known that: "Vegetables, fruits, whole grains, herbs, nuts and seeds contain an abundance of phenolic compounds, terpenoids, sulfur compounds, pigments, and other natural antioxidants that have been associated with protection from and/or treatment of conditions such as cardiovascular disease and cancer." except that we avoid to give nuts to our dogs.
So, giving fruits and vegetables (in normal quantities and beside meat, bones and organs which are on first place) can help us in providing healthier old age to our beloved pets.

And it only takes maximum 15 minutes to prepare these meals ) And I would rather spend 15 minutes of my time in preparing something that my dogs loves instead of, for example, watching TV 

Cheers )


----------



## DaViking

Diana M. said:


> I posted clips that clearly prove that wolves EAT stomach contents, but they are probably against the forum rules. I don`t know how else to show you? You must see youre own eyes, anyone can write what they want...


Where is that clip? (edit; never mind, found it) And is that wolves in the wild?


Hard to see how much stomach content was actually eaten in those clips. Would be easier to see if it was a domesticated farm animal like sheep.


----------



## Diana M.

DaViking said:


> Where is that clip? (edit; never mind, found it) And is that wolves in the wild?


I apologize to everyone, I missed that post actually stayed ...


----------



## Grivana

3Musketeers said:


> Guys, can I move in? You'll only need to prepare an extra plate per day for mee :biggrin:


Of course 
But you have to promise that you're gonna clean you own poop :biggrin:


----------



## Diana M.

Here's another recipe for my pregnant bitch:
Bone soup, buckwheat, vegetables, seaweed, fresh beets and tomatoes, calf ribs

http://i667.photobucket.com/albums/vv31/DidiNoa/04102.jpg


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## minnieme

PMR/BARF arguments aside, your pictures DO look awesome....and 100 leagues above kibble.

Now I'm hungry...... :smile:


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## wiliana

I have to say that it is insult to compare this with kibble :biggrin1:









beef heart and ribs (ribs are under) with sweet potato, zuchini, carrot, parsley, dryed appel and grounded linen


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## RachelsaurusRexU

Oh, yay! Another 27 page debate in the making! LOL. Can't we just agree to disagree? I can't imagine ever not feeding PMR, but I still find this interesting and enjoy seeing their pictures.


----------



## Azra maltese

DaViking said:


> Where is that clip? (edit; never mind, found it) And is that wolves in the wild?
> 
> 
> Hard to see how much stomach content was actually eaten in those clips. Would be easier to see if it was a domesticated farm animal like sheep.


Everybody here is quoting the same author claiming that wolves are not eating stomach contains. If you look deeper, you'll find other opinions saying opposite, i.e.:
"Canines, both dogs and wolves, are omnivores meaning they eat everything, unlike cats that are almost strictly carnivores. When a wolf makes a kill, the first part of the animal they eat is the viscera including the stomach contents. Since most of the animals they kill are herbivores, the stomach contents are made up almost entirely of grass and leaves as well as soil-based probiotics and digestive enzymes. Because the wolves diet is supplemented with partially digested grass, they do not need to eat grass or ‘graze’ and rarely suffer from any digestive issues."
And link:
Why do Dogs Eat Grass
Looks like some members here understand raw feeding as a religion, no modifications allowed!
And adding some vegetables and grains is heretic, even if improves quality of the food! Aren't we all here to discuss how to imrove quality of life of our dogs? I did not see any argument that adding vegetables and fruit is bad for the dogs?


----------



## spook

Grivana said:


> yes, but they surely likes berries )
> Hi to everyone! Filth, bravo!!  I see that Diana gave you all answers you need
> We all know that fruits and vegetables are full of vitamins and minerals (vitamins and minerals are important for normal growth and development, help cells and organs do their jobs...). Yes, they are also in the meat but not so much.
> And it is well known that: "Vegetables, fruits, whole grains, herbs, nuts and seeds contain an abundance of phenolic compounds, terpenoids, sulfur compounds, pigments, and other natural antioxidants that have been associated with protection from and/or treatment of conditions such as cardiovascular disease and cancer." except that we avoid to give nuts to our dogs.
> So, giving fruits and vegetables (in normal quantities and beside meat, bones and organs which are on first place) can help us in providing healthier old age to our beloved pets.
> 
> And it only takes maximum 15 minutes to prepare these meals ) And I would rather spend 15 minutes of my time in preparing something that my dogs loves instead of, for example, watching TV
> 
> Cheers )


*My opinion is that we in America do not have a true picture about feeding our dogs ....
This is a delightful and instructive text.
Thank you very much for helping us in raising our sincere pets ...
Best regards to the Balkans and continue please ... for our dogs ...
The more pictures .... thanks*
:usa:eace:


----------



## JayJayisme

PDXdogmom said:


> You're assuming that you possess the ultimate truth and knowledge of the perfect and optimum way to feed a dog. Not everybody agrees.


Whoa. It wasn't just me. It was a bunch of the PMR feeders here, myself included. This is a DISCUSSION FORUM on RAW FEEDING. If someone posts what they feel is a proper or complete raw diet and others here disagree, especially if it directly contradicts the methodology so many of us follow with our dogs, we get to voice our disagreement if we choose to. That's what a forum is all about. What we don't get to do is launch personal attacks or call people disparaging names, but we are free to disagree all we want and to post what we feel makes our case. Remember, new people will land here at some point in the future looking for information on raw feeding, so even posts that provide a counterpoint to another view are useful. You are free to believe what you want to believe in the end though.


----------



## Azra maltese

RachelsaurusRexU said:


> Oh, yay! Another 27 page debate in the making! LOL. Can't we just agree to disagree? I can't imagine ever not feeding PMR, but I still find this interesting and enjoy seeing their pictures.


But why not? Isn't that the point of being on the forum, to discuss, not to agree or disagree?


----------



## spook

wiliana said:


> I have to say that it is insult to compare this with kibble :biggrin1:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> beef heart and ribs (ribs are under) with sweet potato, zuchini, carrot, parsley, dryed appel and grounded linen


_Hahaha .... I showed the picture to my dog ... I can not believe it ... licking ...
as if saying, *I want this* .. hahaha_
:usa:


----------



## RachelsaurusRexU

Azra maltese said:


> But why not? Isn't that the point of being on the forum, to discuss, not to agree or disagree?


Because it's all just been discussed in a heated 27 page thread! I'm not saying everyone has to agree. Clearly that's not and never will be the case. However, they should be able to come here and start a thread about how they choose to feed their dogs without it turning into an arguement. We've researched PMR. We think it's best, otherwise we wouldn't be feeding it. Clearly they've researched BARF and think it's best, otherwise I'm sure they wouldn't be feeding it. 

Sheesh, it's not like they're feeding Ol'Roy.


----------



## Azra maltese

RachelsaurusRexU said:


> Because it's all just been discussed in a heated 27 page thread! I'm not saying everyone has to agree. Clearly that's not and never will be the case. However, they should be able to come here and start a thread about how they choose to feed their dogs without it turning into an arguement. We've researched PMR. We think it's best, otherwise we wouldn't be feeding it. Clearly they've researched BARF and think it's best, otherwise I'm sure they wouldn't be feeding it.
> 
> Sheesh, it's not like they're feeding Ol'Roy.


Yes, but I do not see the problem in discussing or re-discussing any subject? I am here to share my experience and LEARN! I think, for now, as you said, that my way is the best. But, again, I am ready to accept new methods, if there are enough proven arguments. Otherwise your method is not a method but a dogma.


----------



## SerenityFL

I would like to thank you for sharing your photos and recipes. They look wonderful and far more interesting than anything I've fed. While I do feed the hoodlums the Prey Model Raw diet, every single time we go outside, they are in to the grass and the berries and the flowers. They eat them every single day. 

They get plenty of food, they are not starving but they do like them some plant matter. I don't stop them, I let them enjoy. And you know what? It does NOT show up in their poop so it must be getting broken down somewhere.

Coincidentally, since they have been eating all this plant matter, I've decided that I don't have to be "afraid" of giving them anything BESIDES strictly meat, bone and organ. I now give them a carrot as a treat, or a bit of banana or something else. I steer clear of things I have read are not good for dogs, (ie: onions, seeds from pears or apples or whatever, poinsettias, etc) but giving them a bit of plant or veggie or fruit has had absolutely NO ill effects on them.

So if someone wants to give their dogs a bit of yogurt or veggies or some seeds, who cares. It doesn't HURT them.

Please keep sharing your recipes and photos, I am enjoying them.


----------



## RachelsaurusRexU

Azra maltese said:


> Yes, but I do not see the problem in discussing or re-discussing any subject? I am here to share my experience and LEARN! I think, for now, as you said, that my way is the best. But, again, I am ready to accept new methods, if there are enough proven arguments. Otherwise your method is not a method but a dogma.


That's great! I applaud you for that and understand what you mean and where you're coming from. I think that's how many of us came to feeding whatever it is that we feed today. That's not really what I meant, though.


----------



## JayJayisme

RachelsaurusRexU said:


> Because it's all just been discussed in a heated 27 page thread! I'm not saying everyone has to agree. Clearly that's not and never will be the case. However, they should be able to come here and start a thread about how they choose to feed their dogs without it turning into an arguement. We've researched PMR. We think it's best, otherwise we wouldn't be feeding it. Clearly they've researched BARF and think it's best, otherwise I'm sure they wouldn't be feeding it.


The OP has a sum total of 5 posts. Obviously new here, like we all were once. Before I ever posted anything here, I read many, many pages of posts to get a feel for the "culture" here, and for what people's opinions here were on various subjects so I could decide whether or not I would fit in, and if so, how to position my questions to get the best responses. I wouldn't go on a vegan forum and tell everyone about my prime rib recipe. Nor would I go to a cat lovers forum and tell them in my first post that dogs are better. This is just basic "Netiquette".

Had the OP started the post with something like, "Hey, I know most of you feed PMR but for the BARFers here, we wanted to share some of our recipes." or something like that, I doubt there would have been as much discussion on what makes the best raw diet. When people just jump in here to share their version of raw, and clearly have no idea what the prevailing "culture" of the raw feeders here is, they are going to get questioned/corrected/cross examined/educated or whatever you want to call it.

Acknowledging the "prevailing wisdom" of most of the active participants of this forum in advance would go a long way to diffusing any conflict in the thread. Jumping in without acknowledging the "culture" here is basically considered rude, and is therefore met with resistance.


----------



## wiliana

> While I do feed the hoodlums the Prey Model Raw diet, every single time we go outside, they are in to the grass and the berries and the flowers. They eat them every single day.


You said what I forgot to say, and I quoted that part.
Everything else you wrote-I agree totally.

I divide dog owners on those that are not willing to find out what is a dog- and another, that are listening blindly vets and marketing. In this conflict of opinnions we have here- all of us are interested in dogs and their health, and all of us are sure that our model is the best. We can learn from each others some thigs if we have will for that. That is the point


----------



## Azra maltese

RachelsaurusRexU said:


> That's great! I applaud you for that and understand what you mean and where you're coming from. I think that's how many of us came to feeding whatever it is that we feed today. That's not really what I meant, though.


Thanks, I am ashamed to admit that my Azra was raised on RC (at that time I was stupid enough to allow my vet to convince me that RC has "everything dog needs, and that no man can properly balance natural food in his kitchen").
And ever since, I am on different forums, reading and learning. And, really, I do not mind if proven that I am wrong in something. After all, we are here to accomodate our dogs/


----------



## CorgiPaws

I don't understand what the big deal is? No, they don't feed PMR. Yes, I believe PMR is better. But... honestly.... look at what they feed! It's kinda impressive.


----------



## wiliana

YayYaysime... If I uderstood well...this is forum about dog food?
Raw isn't just a pray


----------



## Azra maltese

PuppyPaws said:


> I don't understand what the big deal is? No, they don't feed PMR. Yes, I believe PMR is better. But... honestly.... look at what they feed! It's kinda impressive.


Beautiful dogs you have!
Did you have to use any supplements (vitamins, calcium...)during their growth or it's raw food only?


----------



## 3Musketeers

I figure what the heck, you guys ARE feeding raw meat, bones, and organs, you're adding some extra bits. My dogs also go outside and they munch on grass and flowers, they always have (even on kibble) , always will. The way I see it, it's tasty or fun for them to chew on and it probably fills them up for a bit. But I do not believe they have to, at all, they just like to, same way we humans like things such as ice-cream.

While my own beliefs are those of most PMR feeders, where plant matter is unnecessary, and that the nutrition they derive from plant matter is minimal, and insignificant, I certainly don't think it hurts to give a little bit of it. Dogs lack the salivary amylase and teeth to properly grind plants and derive most nutrients from them, therefore I believe plants are unnecessary. The difference is BARF-feeders tend to see the plant matter as a *must-have*. 
As long as it's not a primarily plant-based diet, all is good.

P.S/Edit: PMR is never supplemented, the only thing that is usually added is a source of Omega 3s, either fish or something like Salmon Oil (or Emu Oil). That is because of the factory farming in the U.S, the animals lack the omega 3s that grass-fed animals do. The problem is that pasture raised, grass-fed animals are usually VERY expensive, and not affordable for most of us.


----------



## CorgiPaws

Azra maltese said:


> Beautiful dogs you have!
> Did you have to use any supplements (vitamins, calcium...)during their growth or it's raw food only?


We feed a simple raw diet of meat, bones and organs with no supplements at our house. 
I applaud anyone who feeds a home prepared diet of any kind, though. :smile:


----------



## Scarlett_O'

spook said:


> _Searching for the best dog food for our dogs is like searching for the holy grail. A significant amount of myth, confusion, hype, mis-information and unfounded research exists in developing the ideal dog food. Every manufacturer claims to have developed the ideal balance and complete food. The reality is that every one of these fabricated menu choices CAN’T be the ideal formula, because it is quite evident that the formula doesn’t exist. Why? Because no one person knows the perfect way to feed a dog. Is it proper to feed a dog a grain based diet? Is it appropriate to heat process the ingredients to render it SAFE from bacterial contamination? Is it sensible to add harmful ingredients in order to make it more palatable? Is it logical that a bag of dry kibble dog food can stay FRESH for 6 months with the bag left open? Is is harmful for your dog to consume a raw, unprocessed food source (like a BARF Diet)?
> 
> We can all speculate as to what the best food choice would be for dogs but it all comes down to common sense. Our philosophy is based on common sense, testimonials, and a willingness to weigh the benefits and advantages against the potential risks. It is my contention that the research has been conducted with the intention of trying to find ways to make the digestive capacity of a carnivore function more as an omnivore.
> It becomes a challenge to find a suitable meal that will allow for growth and reproduction.
> 
> An increasing number of dog owners are demanding a CHANGE to improve the health of their pets.
> _....:tea::amen:





spook said:


> _One of the most often discussed questions from customers involves talking about the dog’s stools because this is the outcome (no pun intended) or the final result, should I say, of the feeding process. We manufacture a raw frozen meat diet and the BAROMETER used to determine the success of the conversion to this controversial philosophy is the condition of the stool. The color, consistency, and odor all play a role in the determination of the success. It is perfectly NORMAL for the stool to be a chalky white consistency, obviously more firm than a stool formed on a dry heat processed diet, and odor free (almost!). The stool tells the story because these three factors are the result of a more complete combustion process. The nutritional advantage is gained because the ingredients are more completely absorbed in the digestive system in a shorter period of time. This results in less toxin buildup and a significant reduction in stool volume. You know how important this is when you own a larger breed dog.
> 
> The end product (stool) is a chalky white , and has a rather hard consistency – because all that is left is the residue of ash and fiber. All the other ingredients are being utilized and goes to work to gain a nutritional advantage. So the next time your dog takes his/her morning constitution, be sure to check the stool and use it as a barometer and see how it compares to a dog that is being fed an artificial food diet. You will be amazed at the difference and the long term benefit will be rewarding.
> Because of all this .. I think it is a good addition to our dogs give meat ... vegetables, fruits ..._:amen:


You REALLY should stop quoting someone without being them or giving them the credit for your words!


----------



## chowder

I found this thread an interesting read. I will agree with SerenityFL on the one thing. Rocky, who usually hates anything to do with vegies or fruits and will NOT touch them, has this thing about eating the flowers in my garden! I have no idea if it is just to irritate me or what, but he has to go out there and nibble the tops off the flowers! 

Apparently there are certain varieties in my garden that must be really really tasty! They don't seem to hurt him so I say, what the heck, go ahead and eat them, Rocky. It's not like I can watch him every minute.


----------



## magicre

i think it's laudable that you feed your dogs in a manner that you've researched.

and it sounds as if you have researched long and hard about this subject of feeding dogs a diet that suits their needs.

what i would ask you is how are their teeth? veggies and fruits and grains all have sugar content.

do your dogs have any teeth problems?
pancreatic problems?
urinary crystals?

the bowls are very pretty. if the meat were cooked, it would look like one of my dinners....but i'm human and my dogs are not nor are they built like i am built on the inside.

so i have to wonder, physiologically, how they fare getting the amount of sugar and indigestible fibre....

and i mean no offense...i've already been knocked around and done my fair of knocking in another discussion turned heated brawl, meaning big bad fight.....

i'm not out to fight. i want to learn if there is something i am doing that is not good for my dogs or i am missing something, help me understand your reasons.

everything i've read, though, points me in the direction of keeping sugar and indigestible cellulose away from dogs, which is what you find in grains, vegetables and fruits.


----------



## Tobi

Your pics made me damn hungry, no joke!!! that looks like something I'd eat :lol:

I applaud your efforts for sure, and it looks like your pups are getting amazing meals!! I'm curious in one of your pictures you said T-bone, about how much are meats like that going for over there? I know here it's nearly 9$ a lb for a T-bone! lol


----------



## cprcheetah

Diana M. said:


> These are our recipes, and we are very proud of them
> Why We drop fruit and vegetables in meals?
> We do not feed our dogs only RAW because I think that it is impossible to imitate nature. Dogs need the stomach contents of prey, bacteria, in nature they eat some fruit,.... Because we interfere fruits and vegetables with meat and bones.
> We do not have opportunities to give them live chicken , so we strive to complement their diet.


Imitating nature with Prey Model Raw is easy. 80% Meat, 10% bone, 5% Liver & 5% other organs. Dogs are Carnivores, but they are not obligate carnivores like cats, meaning YES they MAY choose to eat fruit/veggies etc but they are not necessary to sustain life. My golden retriever also thinks cat crispies are the best thing since Raw food.....does that mean I should offer her a buffet of them? Do your dogs actually 'process' the veggies? Or do they come out in their poop just as they went in? It is my understanding that they lack the enzymes needed to digest fruits/veggies which is why when I used to feed my Zoey carrots as treats, she had huge chunks of orange in her poop.



Diana M. said:


> It makes sense
> But where's the fun?


I think it is GREAT fun to feed my dogs just PMR, it's AWESOME to watch my 2 4# dogs tackle a rabbit thigh or a chicken neck, and I LOVE LOVE LOVE just being able to hand them their food without a lot of fuss.



Diana M. said:


> I posted clips that clearly prove that wolves EAT stomach contents, but they are probably against the forum rules. I don`t know how else to show you? You must see youre own eyes, anyone can write what they want...


Actually sometimes they may, but the majority of the time they do not:
http://dogfoodchat.com/forum/pictures/2200-raw-feeding-its-finest-caution-graphic-photos.html
Here is someone who witnessed wolves eating:
My Little Carnivores: A day with the wolf pack



Grivana said:


> yes, but they surely likes berries )
> Hi to everyone! Filth, bravo!!  I see that Diana gave you all answers you need
> We all know that fruits and vegetables are full of vitamins and minerals (vitamins and minerals are important for normal growth and development, help cells and organs do their jobs...). Yes, they are also in the meat but not so much.
> And it is well known that: "Vegetables, fruits, whole grains, herbs, nuts and seeds contain an abundance of phenolic compounds, terpenoids, sulfur compounds, pigments, and other natural antioxidants that have been associated with protection from and/or treatment of conditions such as cardiovascular disease and cancer." except that we avoid to give nuts to our dogs.
> So, giving fruits and vegetables (in normal quantities and beside meat, bones and organs which are on first place) can help us in providing healthier old age to our beloved pets.
> 
> And it only takes maximum 15 minutes to prepare these meals ) And I would rather spend 15 minutes of my time in preparing something that my dogs loves instead of, for example, watching TV
> 
> Cheers )


It takes me all of about 1 minute to feed 3 dogs, 5 cats raw . I commend you for feeding raw and feeding them a MUCH better diet than most. For my dogs I prefer PMR, and have seen the AWESOME difference it has made in them.


----------



## JayJayisme

wiliana said:


> YayYaysime... If I uderstood well...this is forum about dog food?
> Raw isn't just a pray


For *most* of us here raw IS just prey (or a prey model, meaning raw meat, bones, and organs, and that is all). 

That was my point. 

When you "burst onto the scene" espousing the very diet that many of us have either abandoned or don't think is optimum, you can expect some controversy to erupt. You have been holding up well though and I commend you for your fortitude. It's virtually a necessity on this forum no matter who you are or what you feed. :wink:

Your dishes are beautiful, as others have said, but they basically amount to uncooked kibble, which few of us here feed.

Now you know.


----------



## Roo

I was wondering, with feeding the grains and seeds, is the phytic acid a concern or not?


----------



## minnieme

PuppyPaws said:


> I applaud anyone who feeds a home prepared diet of any kind, though. :smile:


Seriously! That takes a lot more work than just dumping some kibble into a bowl..


----------



## xellil

minnieme said:


> Seriously! That takes a lot more work than just dumping some kibble into a bowl..


I did it for a short time, twice. It was horrible. And i only had three ingredients.


----------



## CorgiPaws

I read this thread just now. I hadn't before. 

I DO view raw patty/medallion formulas as raw kibble because they are still questionable and very processed, but I don't think these "recipes" are comparable to kibble, or even raw kibble. A few things set it apart, the main one being in quality of ingredients, and lack of "mystery" behind the food. I'd guarantee that the meats in these pictures are a far cry from the tumors, bruises, and other toss away meats that go into that "chicken meal" and even "chicken" in commercial foods. Also, the source of store bought meat is very easily tracked, which is a plus. You can also control if the meat is enhanced or not, organic, free-range, etc. based on what YOU DECIDE to buy. 
Also, the limited ingredients. Yes, some have 5 or 6 things in them, but it's not the list of 30 things in kibbles. 
Just the mere fact that it is REAL FOODS being served to me puts it above even commercial raw diets. It is not cooked and processed beyond recognition. It's not pressed into an awkward little grey patty. It's REAL FOOD... and that, to me, puts it in a totally different league than kibble, or even commercial raw diets. 

I'm not saying it's the most fantastic thing ever. I'm not saying that it's even entirely species appropriate, or that I'd give it a shot. But, I DO think it's a lot better than what MOST dogs are fed, and I do not think it's comparable to kibble. 








I mean come on, really?


----------



## cprcheetah

PuppyPaws said:


> I'm not saying it's the most fantastic thing ever. I'm not saying that it's even entirely species appropriate, or that I'd give it a shot. But, I DO think it's a lot better than what MOST dogs are fed, and I do not think it's comparable to kibble.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I mean come on, really?


Oh come on, you don't think that Doom Nuggets all crunchy is better than a bowlful of species appropriate raw food? :heh:


----------



## CorgiPaws

cprcheetah said:


> Oh come on, you don't think that Doom Nuggets all crunchy is better than a bowlful of species appropriate raw food? :heh:


Lol, I just don't think that the OP's recipes are comparable to kibble, I was surprised to see people relating it to kibble actually.


----------



## RawFedDogs

Azra maltese said:


> Do you add ANY chemical supplements, or you think that raw food contains EVERYTHING dog needs?


No, I feed my dogs NO supplements. My 11 1/2 year old Dane has liver cancer. She gets 2 pain pills a day and a medicine to help her liver function. She received nothing at all until last November when she was diagnosed. My other Dane get absolutely nothing.



> And, you are quoting the same author, but there are some different opinions on the net, i.e.:
> "Canines, both dogs and wolves, are omnivores meaning they eat everything, unlike cats that are almost strictly carnivores. When a wolf makes a kill, the first part of the animal they eat is the viscera including the stomach contents. Since most of the animals they kill are herbivores, the stomach contents are made up almost entirely of grass and leaves as well as soil-based probiotics and digestive enzymes. Because the wolves diet is supplemented with partially digested grass, they do not need to eat grass or ‘graze’ and rarely suffer from any digestive issues."
> Link is:
> Why do Dogs Eat Grass


The man I am quoting has spend 30 years in the wilderness observing, studying, and documenting the behaviors of wild wolves. He got his knowledge from first hand observation, not from reading books. He writes the books and is considered the world's foremost expert on wild wolves.

I have also watched my dogs (4 total) eating whole rabbits and they exhibit the same behavior as the wild wolves in Dr. Mech's writings. I didn't teach them to eat that way, its the way they did if from the first rabbit I fed them.

Please note: I didn't say they don't eat the stomachs. On the contrary, they do eat stomachs, just not the contents of the stomachs.


----------



## SerenityFL

JayJayisme said:


> For *most* of us here raw IS just prey (or a prey model, meaning raw meat, bones, and organs, and that is all).
> 
> That was my point.
> 
> When you "burst onto the scene" espousing the very diet that many of us have either abandoned or don't think is optimum, you can expect some controversy to erupt. You have been holding up well though and I commend you for your fortitude. It's virtually a necessity on this forum no matter who you are or what you feed. :wink:
> 
> Your dishes are beautiful, as others have said, but they basically amount to uncooked kibble, which few of us here feed.
> 
> Now you know.


Almost everywhere I see, BARF is considered raw. This is the raw feeding section, not the PREY model raw feeding section. Where else would you like them to post? It doesn't matter if "most" of us do Prey Model raw, this is a forum and everyone is welcome to post here. They posted in the appropriate section. It may not be EXACTLY what you do and you don't even have to agree with it but it is still informational.

You feed how you want, they over there will feed how they want, and these over here will feed how they want. It's all good.


----------



## RawFedDogs

Diana M. said:


> I posted clips that clearly prove that wolves EAT stomach contents, but they are probably against the forum rules. I don`t know how else to show you? You must see youre own eyes, anyone can write what they want...


No you didn't. I watched each clip two times and nowhere did it show stomach eating nor did the comentator mention it. He did show and mention eating a liver that looked to me more like a stomach but the video isn't clear enough to tell. If it was a somach, it was already opened up and the contents spilled out. I could be very wrong about that. :smile:


----------



## RawFedDogs

Grivana said:


> yes, but they surely likes berries )


Yes, they definately do like berries for the sugar taste. They get very little if any nutrition from them.



> We all know that fruits and vegetables are full of vitamins and minerals (vitamins and minerals are important for normal growth and development, help cells and organs do their jobs...). Yes, they are also in the meat but not so much.


There is as much as a canine needs to be healthy. If you get all of any nutrient you need, adding more doesn't accomplish anything.



> And it is well known that: "Vegetables, fruits, whole grains, herbs, nuts and seeds contain an abundance of phenolic compounds, terpenoids, sulfur compounds, pigments, and other natural antioxidants that have been associated with protection from and/or treatment of conditions such as cardiovascular disease and cancer." except that we avoid to give nuts to our dogs.


Yes but they are not bioavailable to a dog in their natural state which tells me dogs are perfectly healthy without them. Again, if you have all of a certain nutrient you need, adding more doesn't accomplish anything.



> And it only takes maximum 15 minutes to prepare these meals ) And I would rather spend 15 minutes of my time in preparing something that my dogs loves instead of, for example, watching TV


Time doesn't bother me at all. If I even suspected that my dogs MAY benefit from fruits and/or veggies, I would feed them. Obviously I don't. Back when I first started feeding raw, I fed a BARF diet. I fed a veggie mix once a week. Everytime I fed the veggie mix, they had diarrhea the next day. After about 6 months and a lot of research, I stopped feeding the veggies. I know MANY raw feeders who began with BARF but soon stopped the plant matter.


----------



## JayJayisme

SerenityFL said:


> Almost everywhere I see, BARF is considered raw. This is the raw feeding section, not the PREY model raw feeding section. Where else would you like them to post? It doesn't matter if "most" of us do Prey Model raw, this is a forum and everyone is welcome to post here. They posted in the appropriate section. It may not be EXACTLY what you do and you don't even have to agree with it but it is still informational.


Look through the thread again. On the first page, after the OP, there are no less than six posts asking why the veggies, grains, seeds, etc. People were just asking. On the second page, I posted my world famous chicken recipe but said nothing more at that point. Then a couple posts later, the OP said,

"These are our recipes, and we are very proud of them 
Why We drop fruit and vegetables in meals?
We do not feed our dogs only RAW because I think that it is impossible to imitate nature. Dogs need the stomach contents of prey, bacteria, in nature they eat some fruit,.... Because we interfere fruits and vegetables with meat and bones.
We do not have opportunities to give them live chicken , so we strive to complement their diet."

That is when the PMR feeders here realized the OP was misinformed about several things, notably that veggies are necessary, that wild dogs eat the stomach content of their prey, and that PMR somehow means feeding live prey.

So we're all suppose to sit back without informing the OP of the facts about PMR and how they conflict with their understanding about raw feeding principles? Really? Is this forum so PC that we all have to join hands, sing kumbaya, and fart rainbows all day long just because some new raw feeder joined the group? 

Give me a break. Nobody was malicious or mean spirited and nobody said they weren't welcomed here. The discussion my have become passionate but so what. Many of them do around here and the OP is handling it just fine. And maybe they are learning a thing or two along the way.


----------



## RawFedDogs

I also want to commend these newcomers. They feed their dogs well and have researched. The thing I am most impressed with is their ablilty to stand up to questions and to even ask questions themselves. Welcome, guys. You will be great members here. :biggrin:


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## DaneMama

Honestly I like that we can have discussions about what we all think is best, especially in the way things are handled here...with respect. There are many forums out there that allow blatant attacks and name calling...that crap doesn't fly here. And it certainly hasn't started in this thread. If it does, it will be dealt with swiftly and justly. 

And yes this is the "Raw Feeding" forum. Which encompasses ALL aspects of raw feeding, including BARF feeding. It just so happens that most raw feeders here feed PMR style, its just a fact of life here on DFC. I honestly don't care if people post up things like the pictures and recipes in this thread. Yeah, I don't agree with it and I have the right to say so with respect and dignity if I care to do so. Everyone has that right here in fact. Just like any BARF feeder has the right to tell us PMR feeders how they think it should be done. The good thing is that both sides have done a great job in supporting their belief systems. But I still haven't seen any proof from the BARF side of things to indicate that all the "extras" are in deed needed IMO. 

There are plenty of BARF lists out there that would eat any PMR feeder alive if you posted there your thoughts about raw feeding. Like I said, most people here feed PMR and feel passionate about it, and yes we will and do question those who are promoting something different. Especially if a BARFer posts up, a newb takes their advice, heaven forbid they end up with a sick pup, then they come BACK here for advice on how to "fix" things.....what are we all going to tell them? Cut everything "extra" out and feed just skinless, fatless, bone heavy chicken meals just like how we tell people to switch their dogs to raw here on a daily basis. This is just NOT a BARF community in the Raw section. Not only are the people here PMR centered, but so are 99% of the posts here pertaining to raw. I mean, look at all the stickies? How do we teach people how to switch? How do we help dogs who aren't doing well initially on raw? Its all PMR based through and through. 

I'm all for a BARF section to be put up, just like there is a separate forum for kibble. I think its highly commendable of those who feed BARF to their dogs because it is WORLDS better than kibble. They're feeding whole, fresh, raw foods with stuff added in. Its in no way even bad in my eyes, its actually pretty damn good. Far better than home cooked, and even further better than kibble. Kudos you all of you BARFers out there for feeding fresh foods! 

Cheers to getting along now folks :thumb:


----------



## swolek

Wow, those look awesome . I'd love some of that goat cheese, ha!

I feed prey model raw to my pups but your diet looks well researched, too .


----------



## Azra maltese

magicre said:


> i think it's laudable that you feed your dogs in a manner that you've researched.
> 
> and it sounds as if you have researched long and hard about this subject of feeding dogs a diet that suits their needs.
> 
> what i would ask you is how are their teeth? veggies and fruits and grains all have sugar content.
> 
> do your dogs have any teeth problems?
> pancreatic problems?
> urinary crystals?
> 
> the bowls are very pretty. if the meat were cooked, it would look like one of my dinners....but i'm human and my dogs are not nor are they built like i am built on the inside.
> 
> so i have to wonder, physiologically, how they fare getting the amount of sugar and indigestible fibre....
> 
> and i mean no offense...i've already been knocked around and done my fair of knocking in another discussion turned heated brawl, meaning big bad fight.....
> 
> i'm not out to fight. i want to learn if there is something i am doing that is not good for my dogs or i am missing something, help me understand your reasons.
> 
> everything i've read, though, points me in the direction of keeping sugar and indigestible cellulose away from dogs, which is what you find in grains, vegetables and fruits.


Of course we are not feeding all veggies and fruits. It is very well researched and there is no "indigestible celulose" in their meals. We are not feeding beans, green beans, grapes or anything from the dinner table. It is not dogma that has to strictly follow prescribed "rules"! We are just reading a lot, and with veggies and fruits (different vitamins in it), we are TRYING to reach "ideal" balance of the food. Teeths are perfect, poop is solid as long as you are introducing one new ingredient per week. After all, it is no more than 30% of vegetables and fruits in their meals, and even if it doesn't help there is no harm.


----------



## CavePaws

jayjay, you never fail to amuse me with the way you word your posts. They are always well worded, witty, and entertaining. I agree with you that no one seemed hostile towards the Op. I do believe you need a decent back bone in this place, and the Op does seem to be taking no hard feelings. I was in several heated debates when I first joined, to be honest it just attracted me more to DFC.


----------



## DoglovingSenior

Grivana said:


> yes, but they surely likes berries )
> 
> And it only takes maximum 15 minutes to prepare these meals ) And I would rather spend 15 minutes of my time in preparing something that my dogs loves instead of, for example, watching TV
> 
> Cheers )


 Yes they do like berries, the berries are SWEET-how often do they get them? I had a dog that LOVED dark chocolate! Do you think that I didn't do everything in my power to keep him away from it? Was it good for him-NO!!!! His last day on this earth I let him eat all that he wanted!!! This is ridiculous! Grown supposedly half-way intelligent people who refuse to use logic. I used to tell my students-that just because something was their opinion did not meatn that they could pull it out of the iar. An opinion should be based on fact-you are ignoring ALL of the facts. G'nite.


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## DoglovingSenior

Nope, I'm not finished. Moderators, perhaps we DO need a PMR group. Then it will be perfectly clear where we stand! Now, G'nite.


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## Azra maltese

RawFedDogs said:


> No, I feed my dogs NO supplements. My 11 1/2 year old Dane has liver cancer. She gets 2 pain pills a day and a medicine to help her liver function. She received nothing at all until last November when she was diagnosed. My other Dane get absolutely nothing.
> 
> 
> 
> The man I am quoting has spend 30 years in the wilderness observing, studying, and documenting the behaviors of wild wolves. He got his knowledge from first hand observation, not from reading books. He writes the books and is considered the world's foremost expert on wild wolves.
> 
> I have also watched my dogs (4 total) eating whole rabbits and they exhibit the same behavior as the wild wolves in Dr. Mech's writings. I didn't teach them to eat that way, its the way they did if from the first rabbit I fed them.
> 
> Please note: I didn't say they don't eat the stomachs. On the contrary, they do eat stomachs, just not the contents of the stomachs.


First thanks for your argumentative discussion, and just to make it clear I really fully agree with you. If I am not living in the apartment, I would like to have Great Dane! In that case I would probably try to stick with PMR. Note that I am saying "probably" cause your arguments are very logical, but I am still learning about it, and I have some questions to bother you with:heh:
But, first, can you imagine the state of my maltese after eating a whole rabbit (small)??anda: She is a show dog with a full length hair, and that will probably mean a bath after each meal! She still have 70-80 percent of raw meet (except pork).
Second,somebody here asked if there are orange spots in her poop after eating carrot! No, if the carrot is blended, there is no difference.


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## wiliana

Uh... I can not quote evreyone, I will just write...

Someone asked abouth teeth, pancreatic and urinary status... I already wrote post about my dog and why I stoped feeding him only with meet. He looks much better now, and health is the same. He was always healthy. Every year Im taking his blood and urin on analyze and everything is perfect. Offcourse that teeths are like pearls :wink: . 
Someone from the Prey section says something like "Im feeding like this cause it is the best for my dogs...that I realise that the other model is better, I would take that model" . I'm saying that for my model od feeding.
My dog is in everyday training and he is also a sucsesfull show dog. When I was feeding him only with meet, he was preety thiny, without very shiny wire coat. That I showed him in phase of eating only meat... he would get mark 4 ... 
You can see is dog healthy by a lot of obvious sings. 

About sugar in fruits and some veggies... First, it woud be good that some of you slow down emotions about what is in our bowls, cause if you only see sugars or fibres, we can not speak normally. Our bowls are every day different. The only thing that is always there are all sorts of meat and bones, and that is at least 70% of meal. Sometimes, in a bowl is only meet, when we don't have anything else smart in home. Sometimes we will add to meat some sort of grain mixed with some vegies, sometimes only vegies, sometimes only a peace of apple. With all this, I would like someone to tell me how much natural fruit or vege sugar would harm dog? Few apples per month? Cause that is the ammount of those sugars in our meals per month. When I know that from those fruits or veges he gets much more than he is loosing, and all health searches of my dog are perfect all the time, I really don't see any minus of feeding this, only a lot of pluses.

As I read, many of you had problems feeding dogs with fibers... I had only with few of them, and Im not giving him those... The worst diarhea is when he is eating a lot of organs, even with bones, exept heart, cause heart is a muscule. 

Don't get us wrong here, none of us wants you to change your way feeding, we are just presenting how we are feeding and answering why we think that's good. 

Someone mentioned that, if some new with health problems of his dog come to this thread, could take this way of feeding, and to make worse his dog situation. 
Come oooon... I think we are very clear explaining why and how this diet is good for our opinion and till now, on another forums, people always solved their problems with dogs after this kind of diet. The only important thing is not to copy literary ingredients from our bowls, then to find out what sorts of ingredients your dog needs and why.
My dog needed more weight and better coat... Filth's dog is young ... dogs of Diana and Azra have puppies...
For feeding this diet, owner should know specific needs of his dog, to know what nutrition benefits he can find in different sorts of food, as Pray model feeders knows that different parts of meet has different values


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## RawFedDogs

Azra maltese said:


> But, first, can you imagine the state of my maltese after eating a whole rabbit (small)??


I have never fed raw to a small dog but I don't see why you have to feed the whole rabbit in one meal. You could cut the rabbit up and feed it over several meals. It would have the same effect. Don't know why it would be any messier than any other meal you feed.



> Second,somebody here asked if there are orange spots in her poop after eating carrot! No, if the carrot is blended, there is no difference.


If it has to be blended before it can be digested, that tells me there is no need for carrots at all. You are just feeding it to make YOU feel good.


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## wiliana

> If it has to be blended before it can be digested, that tells me there is no need for carrots at all. You are just feeding it to make YOU feel good.


No. It depends how it is blended and prepared. There are ways to save vitamins in it. The best way is to grate it and leave in a worm soup or wather for some time, untill it gets soft. Than to give a dog that with soup. Another way is steam cooking, but it takes more time. I have somwhere a chart with ammouts of how much vitamins we keep after that kind of preparation, I will find it and post it

Meal can be like this
http://i899.photobucket.com/albums/ac197/popacns/P4290306.jpg

or like this
http://i899.photobucket.com/albums/ac197/popacns/Slika004-2.jpg

depends what you have at home


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## SpooOwner

OP - Those dinners look scrumptious! A friend of mine cooks for her dogs, and your recipes remind me of hers. And her dogs are healthy, happy, and have beautiful coats and teeth.


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## Filth

Looks like I missed a lot. I'm glad that a lot of people took part in this thread. I just read a whole thing.

First of all, I would like to ask you for some respect. The fact that we are new here doesn't mean that we are new in "dog feeding" area. Both sides have their ways of preparing food, the best way to find which one is better for the health of our dogs is to show arguments and discuss normally and with respect. By showing respect I mean not to compare our food to kibble at first. That is disrespecting, and we found that insulting. On the other side do not identify our food to BARF or something else, cause it is simply not that.

Once again, our meals are prepared of 70% meat and 30% natural supplements(veggies, fruits, grains, dairy products..). 

Many of you asked why do we think it is necessary to feed our dogs with veggies and fruits?

I feed my dog vegetables and fruits firstly because of the vitamins and minerals they provide. 

@RFD Do you know what are dogs needs of vitamins and minerals on daily basis? Do you know how many vitamins and minerals are in meat? Do you know what are vitamins an minerals for, and what can or can not be done with or without them?

You said that dog gets all the vitamins and minerals needed from meat? I wouldn't agree. I would say it gets enough to survive, but not to have a long healthy life. Insufficient intake of vitamins will cause problems sooner or later. 

There are some vitamins and minerals in meat, bones and organs but the amount of them is not enough for the basic functions in dogs body. For example, if dog gets a Calcium from a bone, he/she needs a Vitamin D in order to absorb that Calcium. The amount of Vitamin D found in meat, bones and organs is not enough to absorb the amount of Ca dog gets from a bone. That is why we put an egg in the bowl, or a dairy products. It is great source of Vitamin D in this case, and dog needs them.

The other thing is that with using vegetables you can adjust food to your dogs needs. Our dogs have different phases in their life and being able to give them what they need in each period is a great thing. Variety in their food gives you that possibility. Does a dog needs to eat the same with 3 months of age and with 8 years? Does a dog needs the same diet when pregnant? Meat, bones and organs at 3 months, meat bones and organs at 15 years, meat bones and organs when pregnant or breast feeding, meat bones and organs when sick? Completely same diet in every phase of life dog is going through?

We stick to the theory that you have to adjust to your dogs needs in different phases. If a dog has a skin, vision or hair problems you can add to his diet tomato, pepper, spinach or dairy products which are all great sources of Vitamin A. Same thing for the immune system. If you have a pregnant bitch you have to increase her intake of Vitamin C. The best way to do it is to give her some fruits and other veggies that provide Vitamin C. If you have a puppy developing adding dairy products or egg shells(and bones of course) will provide him necessary intake of Ca. And so on...

If you only use liver to fulfill the dogs needs for many Vitamins and Minerals you will very soon end with a dog with hypervitaminosis A. Liver has many vitamins, but first of all it has to much vitamin A. If you want to provide your dog a Vitamin C and you use a liver for that purpose, a dog will get to much vitamin A. That's why we suggest you to use vegetables and fruits and have many ways to provide your dogs what they need.

Someone asked about digestion of veggies. We boil veggies very short just to change their structure that dog can digest them. Of course, we give tomato, pepper etc. fresh, and none of our dogs have problems with digesting it.

I would please wiliana to post pictures of her dog eating just meat and then a pic of her dog 6 months later after turning to this way of feeding. You will see that her dog looked just like your dogs look now(in my opinion skinny) and than you will see the change.

And one more question for all. Why does your dog eats grass when you take him outside? Cause it is sweet? Cause it tastes good? Or maybe cause he/she feels a need for it? Think about it...

Here are some more pictures. My meal was just the first one, I think a I post one from everybody. So meals from "Balkan Group". 

-Mutton (sheep meat), lamb liver, lamb heart, + white cheese, quail egg, garlic, tomato, carrot, parsley and parsley leaves, sesame and flax 










-Beef tail + carrot, whit cow and goat cheese, celery and parsley, sesame










-beef ribs and beef heart, + yogurt, pepper, tomato, rice and zucchini










-beef t-bone steak, minced beef + pasta, white cheese, sour cream, grated apple, carrot and parsley, olive oil, boiled egg


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## Azra maltese

RawFedDogs said:


> I have never fed raw to a small dog but I don't see why you have to feed the whole rabbit in one meal. You could cut the rabbit up and feed it over several meals. It would have the same effect. Don't know why it would be any messier than any other meal you feed.
> 
> 
> 
> If it has to be blended before it can be digested, that tells me there is no need for carrots at all. You are just feeding it to make YOU feel good.


Ok, carrot issue. If it is blended and no remains in a poop, that means it's been digested! Which also means that my dog got some of the vitamine A from it? We are giving linen seeds (smashed) to substitute lack of vitamine F in raw meet. Same as giving green pepper rich with vitamine C. If it is diggested, I really do not see any reason not t9o add it.
And finnally, just to ask you: You are claiming that the dogs are genuine carnivors. Then, how is it possible that they are diggesting boiled rice (easy to check, by looking at the poop  )


----------



## CavePaws

Dang, those fish look marvelous!!! Now who's lucky pup had those for dinner?


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## wiliana

One Cane Corso from our "team" ... his owner is not on this site, but he gave us permission to post his photos.
Im sure that Diana and Filth have their own fish meal photos. I don't have, cause my dog doesen't want to eat fish at all :frown:


----------



## CavePaws

Azra maltese said:


> Ok, carrot issue. If it is blended and no remains in a poop, that means it's been digested! Which also means that my dog got some of the vitamine A from it? We are giving linen seeds (smashed) to substitute lack of vitamine F in raw meet. Same as giving green pepper rich with vitamine C. If it is diggested, I really do not see any reason not t9o add it.
> And finnally, just to ask you: You are claiming that the dogs are genuine carnivors. Then, how is it possible that they are diggesting boiled rice (easy to check, by looking at the poop  )



You are cooking it; processing it, or breaking it down, in such a way that your dogs body is doing less work. That is why you are seeing "larger" stools than you would on a raw meat, bones, and organs diet. You don't see the carrots coming out in the poop as you are processing those. What you are doing is making things that provide little nutritional value in their whole form, provide some nutritional value in a processed form.


----------



## lauren43

My biggest question is do they get all the extras, fruits, veggies, seeds, yogurt in every single meal? While I realize there is a chance a wolf may get some plant particles while eating their prey, they certainly do not get any of the extras added to these prepared meals...how do you decide what to add? Also if a wolf does eat the stomach lining and in doing so eats some of the stomach contents some of those videos mentioned only the alpha will get this portion. Therefore most of the pack does not. And it seems they eat such a small amount of stomach contents per meal in comparison to the meat content they ingest...how do you decide how much 'other' ingredients to add? From your pictures it looks like at least half of their meal is plant matter and the like.


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## wiliana

> Our bowls are every day different. The only thing that is always there are all sorts of meat and bones, and that is at least 70% of meal. Sometimes, in a bowl is only meet, when we don't have anything else smart in home. Sometimes we will add to meat some sort of grain mixed with some vegies, sometimes only vegies, sometimes only a peace of apple.


How do we decide what to add? Example...if I dont have any bone that day, i will put some cheese for Ca. If I put linen seeds, I will not put olive oil etc... It is not important to put everything...what he don't get today- he will eat tomorrow


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## naturalfeddogs

As long as you have variety,you don't have to have bone daily. Some dogs do better on bone every other day, others daily at one meal, another meal that day boneless. Variety keeps it all consistant.


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## wiliana

I agree. Variety is the main point of this diet


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## DaneMama

I consider the feeding style posted here BARF diet because it stands for Bones And Raw Foods (primarily raw meat and bones, fruit, veggies, dairy products and supplements). I know that some of the veggies are cooked first before feeding but I still think its considered a form of BARF diet.

Either way I don't have issues with this feeding style. Some dogs I've known to have issues with this kind of diet though but do great on PMR. It seems like you ladies (?) know what you're doing and have put the research in. The only thing I don't like in your bowls is the oddly shaped cut bones like t-bones and ox tail. I don't generally suggest feeding those because if a bone is going to cause a blockage it's most like going to be one that has been mechanically cut into unnatural shapes. 

Also, I'd love to hear how you switch dogs over to such a diet that you feed? I'm looking at these meals and most of them are super rich, so I know that lots of dogs would get sick after eating a meal like that if they're not used to it.


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## Filth

lauren43 said:


> My biggest question is do they get all the extras, fruits, veggies, seeds, yogurt in every single meal? While I realize there is a chance a wolf may get some plant particles while eating their prey, they certainly do not get any of the extras added to these prepared meals...how do you decide what to add? Also if a wolf does eat the stomach lining and in doing so eats some of the stomach contents some of those videos mentioned only the alpha will get this portion. Therefore most of the pack does not. And it seems they eat such a small amount of stomach contents per meal in comparison to the meat content they ingest...how do you decide how much 'other' ingredients to add?


Not in every single meal, but they do get those very often. I give just meat maybe once a week.
Veggies that we are giving are carrot, parsley, tomato, pepper, zucchini, celery, parsnip, eggplant, potato, spinach, broccoli, etc., if you add fruits such as pears, apples, bananas, watermelon, oranges, cantaloupe, peaches, cherries, fig etc. you get the full range of vitamins they need. It is not necessary(or even impossible) to give them all of those every day. We make combinations of those and let's say monthly they get all of them. Point is to give your dog amount of vitamins and minerals they need for the normal functioning of the organism.



lauren43 said:


> From your pictures it looks like at least half of their meal is plant matter and the like.


Look at the pictures again. 


I posted some more pictures and my explanation for the reason we give something but meat, but I don't see that post here. If moderators can tell me what the problem is or when it is going to appear, I will be thankful.


----------



## spook

RawFedDogs said:


> I also want to commend these newcomers. They feed their dogs well and have researched. The thing I am most impressed with is their ablilty to stand up to questions and to even ask questions themselves. Welcome, guys. You will be great members here. :biggrin:


*Yes ... of course ...:smile:

Hello boys and girls,
my dogs are very hungry .... please send me a recipe and a picture ....op2:
We want our dogs in the United States are so beautiful as yours in the Balkans ....
Come to us at dog shows ...*:biggrin:


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## Filth

DaneMama said:


> Also, I'd love to hear how you switch dogs over to such a diet that you feed? I'm looking at these meals and most of them are super rich, so I know that lots of dogs would get sick after eating a meal like that if they're not used to it.


Greatest way to change your dogs diet is to do it gradually. RFD talked about his dog having diarrhea from eating vegetables(that he gave once a week). He forgot the fact that dogs body is used to the food he ate in the past period and doesn't know to digest foods he didn't eat yet. Whatever foodstuff you give your dog for the first time it is very likely that dog is going to have some form of diarrhea. So the best way to do it is to start involving vegetables or any other stuff one by one in a small quantity. Even if a dog has diarrhea first day after eating something new, It won't have it in a next few days if you continue giving him that same new thing. For example you can start giving him a little bit of rice, and then add more and more till the time he completely adjust to eating rice. Then you can add him carrot, and get him used to carrot. In a month or two of gradually adding stuff you will be able to give your dog whatever you want and the dog will be able to digest it. Be extra careful with veggies like celery or broccoli, cause they have a strong taste and are not supposed to be given more than just a piece. On the other side I haven't heard of a dog that doesn't like dairy products, so you don't have to worry about that.


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## CavePaws

Off topic: wiliana your dog in your signature looks amazing, you should make a thread with some more pictures if your pup!

Edit: and filth I would like to know what you think the richest veggies are, and if you ever have to consider regulating any certain plant item because in large amounts or given daily it can become toxic. I'm very curious to hear more about your way of feeding. Most of the people in my co-op are BARF feeders so generally I don't ask them for advice. It never hurts just to learn about something new though!


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## wiliana

DaneMama, all of us are ladies, exept Filth-he is our Alpha male here :biggrin:

About T bones you mentioned... I don't know for others, but my dog is not eating them whole, just a part which is interesting to chew. 
Ribs, Tailes and simillar parts he eats completly.

I already wrote why and how we choose this diet in some of my previous posts. To make story shorter, we started only with meet and, one by one adding some new things. It was easy and fast because there are just a few ingredients that he didn't apsorb well, so I put them out from diet. I had a bigger problem because he is choosy and there is no way that he would eat the same food for 2 or 3 days in a row. That s why I am also happy with this system...every day he gets something new


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## wiliana

CavePaws- Thank you :redface:
I will make a thread for him, we are very active and I have a lot of photos


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## Filth

CavePaws said:


> Edit: and filth I would like to know what you think the richest veggies are, and if you ever have to consider regulating any certain plant item because in large amounts or given daily it can become toxic. I'm very curious to hear more about your way of feeding. Most of the people in my co-op are BARF feeders so generally I don't ask them for advice. It never hurts just to learn about something new though!


I do not know what you consider by saying "richest", but every vegetable is rich in its own way. I mentioned celery and broccoli because large quantity of them can cause problems. Small amount is very healthy and provides them vitamins they need, but on the other side they can be harmful if you give them to much. Carrot is a vegetable that I haven't heard anyone had problem with. Rice and carrots are pretty much something we give them most. We also try to give them as much fresh veggies and fruit as we can. Boiling in general impoverishes everything, so when we have(usually over summer) we give them fresh tomato, pepper,etc. Fruits are just sometimes in their meal bowl, we usually hand fruits to them as we eat some. Some dogs are allergic to some of the veggies(or just don't like them) so you have to try and experiment a little bit. My dog doesn't like beet, and she started leaving it in the bowl from the very beginning(2,5 months old). So I stopped giving her beet and everything was alright (read this as "bowl was always empty"  ). 

Ask anything you wish, we are glad that some of you are interesting in this way of preparing food. And I hope my "this morning post" will appear soon so you will be able to read some more benefits of vegetables and this diet in general.


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## Liz

You mentioned feeding raw with a show dog, we have collies and shelties that are shown and they eat raw. My little ones would not get a whole rabbit as it is just too much for them but the collies can get half and they all do fine with out excess mess. If we are going out to show we feeed after the show anyway and they are bathed the night before. If they do get something I usually only need to clean up paws and forelegs.


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## magicre

Azra maltese said:


> Of course we are not feeding all veggies and fruits. It is very well researched and there is no "indigestible celulose" in their meals. We are not feeding beans, green beans, grapes or anything from the dinner table. It is not dogma that has to strictly follow prescribed "rules"! We are just reading a lot, and with veggies and fruits (different vitamins in it), we are TRYING to reach "ideal" balance of the food. Teeths are perfect, poop is solid as long as you are introducing one new ingredient per week. After all, it is no more than 30% of vegetables and fruits in their meals, and even if it doesn't help there is no harm.


yes, i understand that you have an entirely different belief system than i.

i'm okay with that. i can see that you've studied and researched and are very strong in your beliefs, as i am in mine.


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## Roo

I know a lot of questions have been answered, but I don't think mine was. I still would appreciate any thoughts on my question on the phytic acid found in the grains and seeds in these diets. Is it a concern at all? Do you have to supplement for any lost iron, zinc, calcium, or magnesium that it can chelate and block absorption to? Is cooking the grains enough, or should you soak them first? What about the seeds?

Do you feed fish oil and flax seed? I thought flax seed contained only the precursor ALA form of omega 3 and 6 that still needs to be converted by the body to DHA and EPA to be of any nutritional value. I've read that conversion is difficult for humans and other omnivores, and would be even more difficult for carnivores considering their lack of most (but not all) of the enzymes to process plant matter. Do you feed flax seed for another reason like the lignans it contains and not for a source of omega 3? Just curious.


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## DaneMama

It would be great for you guys to write up a "getting started" guide with stepwise instructions on how to switch and feed this diet. We need to make sure the information given here is well backed by support from those knowledgeable on the topic because people will take a look at these pictures and recreate them giving these foods to their dogs unknowingly of how rich they can be. The last thing I want is for people to have dogs get health issues based on the knowledge and advice given here.

It would also be great if you could write a "support" guide for if and when things "go wrong" with this diet. 

I know that a lot of content here is devoted to "getting started" and "Uh oh...my dog has _____ issue, help!" but it's all geared toward prey model raw style of feeding. If anyone that does take the advice given by these recipes and comes to us PMR feeders, the first thing we will suggest is cutting every thing out that you suggest to start with. So it would be good to have BARF supporters if those people don't want to switch to PMR. 

Does this make sense? 

I'm looking into getting a BARF forum going so there's no confusion.


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## Filth

Roo said:


> I know a lot of questions have been answered, but I don't think mine was. I still would appreciate any thoughts on my question on the phytic acid found in the grains and seeds in these diets. Is it a concern at all? Do you have to supplement for any lost iron, zinc, calcium, or magnesium that it can chelate and block absorption to? Is cooking the grains enough, or should you soak them first? What about the seeds?


I'm sorry that we failed to observe your question. 

Of all the seeds that we give to our dogs only sesame is a source of phytic acid. What we do in order to reduce the phytic asid from sesame is soaking in yogurt. We usually overflow meal with a mixture of yogurt and seeds. However, we do not give sesame every day, and we are bigger fans of flax and pumpkin seed that we think are the healthiest. The other thing we do is that we try to provide them enough Vitamin C which will aid in the prevention of the natural binding of Phytic acid to calcium, iron, magnesium or zinc and will improve dogs ability to absorb those minerals.


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## spook

DaneMama said:


> It would be great for you guys to write up a "getting started" guide with stepwise instructions on how to switch and feed this diet. We need to make sure the information given here is well backed by support from those knowledgeable on the topic because people will take a look at these pictures and recreate them giving these foods to their dogs unknowingly of how rich they can be. The last thing I want is for people to have dogs get health issues based on the knowledge and advice given here.
> It would also be great if you could write a "support" guide for if and when things "go wrong" with this diet.
> Does this make sense?


_Yes ... More to add ...
I propose to give us a weekly or monthly menu ... with pictures ...:typing:
Then we can vote for the best meal for our dogs .....:usa2:_
eace:


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## Roo

Thanks for answering my question, I thought vitamin c only helps to prevent the binding in the iron, not the other minerals. What about the grains? I know rice is usually low in phytic acid, but I thought oatmeal was pretty high in it. Maybe cooking the grains removes enough of it not to matter? Do you feed the yogurt with the grains as well to aid in the lost phytase enzymes which can be destroyed by the cooking process? Sorry for the questions, I'm just curious to learn how it all balances out.


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## Azra maltese

Liz said:


> You mentioned feeding raw with a show dog, we have collies and shelties that are shown and they eat raw. My little ones would not get a whole rabbit as it is just too much for them but the collies can get half and they all do fine with out excess mess. If we are going out to show we feeed after the show anyway and they are bathed the night before. If they do get something I usually only need to clean up paws and forelegs.


OK, understand, sorry for not being clear or it's my English. It's not the matter of show dog only, but white show dog with a long white mustaches  I am feeding raw meet only (again, excluding pork), but chopped to preserve hair. When giving bones, mustaches have to be fully packed.
So, my point is not that I can not feed raw cause she is a show dog, but that I can not feed whole or half of the prey. Therefore, on our way I think that I can better balance all necessary ingredients.


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## Filth

You are welcome. 

Yes, oatmeal(oat, oat flakes) is high in phytic acid. I have never given oat flakes to my dog, but some of us did. But even when they do it is like once a month. 

Brown rice contains phytic acid, but white rice does not. 99% of us gives white rice, so do I. What we use sometimes as a substitute for rice is pasta. My dog isn't a big lover of pasta so I give her white rice very often(almost every day). And yes, cooking the grains does remove big part of it(if not all since we cook rice a lot longer then we cook veggies).

We found yogurt(and all other dairy products) very healthy and great sources of Ca. Our dogs love them, and I guarantee that your dogs will too.  Nothing sweeter than the dog's muzzle stained with yogurt.  But we do not give every substance as a cover for something else that is lost or something like that. We don't bother our self that much, it is just important that everything you give your dog really needs and that is healthy for him. The digestion and absorption process will always replace something with something, but in the end it will all give us a good diet and a healthy life for our dog. By cooking some veggies we do lose some of it, but there is always bright side and other stuff that you can add to fulfill that hole. That is one more benefit of this way of preparing food, a lot of stuff involved and always a big choice for many different combinations.  

And remember that balance of dogs diet is an important fact on a longer period. Dogs diet does not have to be perfectly balanced in every meal. It is important that dog gets everything needed in one certain period. Our friend fed her German Shepard with a vegetarian meal in the mourning and then meat meal in the evening, and everything went very well, just because dog got everything she needed(even if it wasn't in the bowl at the same time).


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## magicre

when you are figuring out how much to feed your dogs, how do you count in the veggies and grains and occasional fruit?

is that part of the percentage of food you feed?

for example, i feed my pug 2% of his body weight which comes out to approximately 6 ounces per day. any more than that, and he would be a fat dog. less than that is not enough for him.

he does not get a whole lot of exercise, other than 1/2 - 1 mile of walking per day. 

the six ounces he gets keeps him nice and stocky without being chubby and he still has a waist.

but i only feed protein, organ, and bone. 

do you count your veggies, grains and fruits as part of the weighted amount you feed?


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## luvMyBRT

Wiliana - I too wanted to say that your dog looks really good! What breed? I'd love to see some more pictures.

Also, I'd love a barf style feeding section. My Black Russian Terrier eats a barf style diet due to a health condition. I'd love to be able to learn more about this way of feeding.


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## Azra maltese

magicre said:


> when you are figuring out how much to feed your dogs, how do you count in the veggies and grains and occasional fruit?
> 
> is that part of the percentage of food you feed?
> 
> for example, i feed my pug 2% of his body weight which comes out to approximately 6 ounces per day. any more than that, and he would be a fat dog. less than that is not enough for him.
> 
> he does not get a whole lot of exercise, other than 1/2 - 1 mile of walking per day.
> 
> the six ounces he gets keeps him nice and stocky without being chubby and he still has a waist.
> 
> but i only feed protein, organ, and bone.
> 
> do you count your veggies, grains and fruits as part of the weighted amount you feed?


I strongly beleive that each dog (even if same breed) is separate case, different metabolism, level of activity, life habits,etc. so again, monitoring own dog closely can give better answers then any percantage calculations. When switching from RC, I just doubled the volumen of the food (including veggies, yogurt and grains).


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## JayJayisme

wiliana said:


> I have to say that it is insult to compare this with kibble


Well, I just read through this entire thread, again, and I got a good laugh, again, especially with regards to the above statement. Here's why.

If a new person showed up in the kibble forum (i.e. the Dry and Canned Dog Food) and posted a pic of their dog cheerfully eating a bowl of some new kibble, and the ingredients for that kibble were listed as; meat, bones, liver, carrot, parsley, tomato, sweet potato, pepper, parsley, zucchini, celery, beets, parsnip, eggplant, potato, spinach, broccoli, apples, bananas, watermelon, oranges, cantaloupe, peaches, cherries, fig, rice, yogurt, sour cream, buckwheat, seaweed, oat flakes, white goat cheese, pumpkin seeds, sesame seeds, flax seeds, and sunflower seeds, they would get laughed right off the forum.

Do you know where I got that list? Right out of the OP's various posts in this thread. Sorry, but this sounds like uncooked kibble to me.

I guess the fundamental conflict here is that the OP thinks dogs are omnivores, and most of the rest of us in the raw feeding forum are convinced that dogs are definitely carnivores. Just because a dog eats a berry, doesn't change millions of years of evolution and physiology. The OP also maintains the position that all of this is necessary to provide nutritional balance, but provides no scientific or evolutionary basis for this. I mean, dogs synthesize vitamin C. It isn't needed in their diet, and some experts even think it may be harmful to dogs. There isn't even any proof that the nutrients from these non-meat sources are even being absorbed, and the fact that some of the material must either be cooked or pureed in order for any digestion to occur should be telling on its own.

I wonder too, what is the meat quality like in Croatia? I doubt it's worse than what we typically get in the U.S., we have one of the lowest quality meat supplies in the world (nutrition-wise) thanks to factory farming and the liberal use of corn as feed. What is the beef industry like in Croatia, or wherever most of your beef comes from? It may be even more nutritious than most of us in North America have regular access to, and therefore even further eliminates the need for the so-called "nutritional balance" from all the plant-based ingredients. Just a thought.

I post this (again) not to rile up conflict and argument, but to provide balance to the conversation for the benefit of those who may land here in the future seeking answers. Yes, there is more than one way to feed raw. But there are reasons each of us believes our way is better, and the point of a forum is to discuss those theories and differences so that we, and others, may learn from the discussion.


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## twotonelover

While I'm not a fan of "Barf" style raw, I think this is a MUCH better alternative to kibble. Your dog is one of the lucky few who doesn't have to live off processed junk food  He/she is very lucky!


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## Filth

@JayJayisme

I don't know what problem do you have with us, but I find you completely irritating from the very beginning. If meals that you can see in the pictures looks like kibble to you, than you have a serious problem. We said couple a times, meat is at least 70% of every meal we made, the rest is a combination of few of listed ingredients. You can see it all in the pictures, but you just don't want to cause you are dreaming that this is kibble and food that you are preparing is heaven...dream on.




JayJayisme said:


> There isn't even any proof that the nutrients from these non-meat sources are even being absorbed, and the fact that some of the material must either be cooked or pureed in order for any digestion to occur should be telling on its own.


Wiliana please post him a picture of your dog eating just meat and than a picture of your dog eating meat + nonabsorbable supplements. If that is not a proof I don't know what it is. 


And Jay if you can tell me what do you feed your dog with? What is the main part of his/her diet? What meat, what part of what animal? What organs? I would be very thankful. 




JayJayisme said:


> I post this (again) not to rile up conflict and argument, but to provide balance to the conversation for the benefit of those who may land here in the future seeking answers. Yes, there is more than one way to feed raw. But there are reasons each of us believes our way is better, and the point of a forum is to discuss those theories and differences so that we, and others, may learn from the discussion.


Yes, you're right. But looks like your point is to have a good laugh on others opinion, and to say that every food is kibble that is not strictly the same food as you prepare it. Very interesting and constructive way of thinking.


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## Azra maltese

JayJayisme said:


> The OP also maintains the position that all of this is necessary to provide nutritional balance, but provides no scientific or evolutionary basis for this. I mean, dogs synthesize vitamin C. It isn't needed in their diet, and some experts even think it may be harmful to dogs. There isn't even any proof that the nutrients from these non-meat sources are even being absorbed, and the fact that some of the material must either be cooked or pureed in order for any digestion to occur should be telling on its own.


Could you, please, provide a link so we can all see how "vitamin C can be harmfull to dogs" ?


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## Filth

magicre said:


> when you are figuring out how much to feed your dogs, how do you count in the veggies and grains and occasional fruit?
> 
> is that part of the percentage of food you feed?
> 
> for example, i feed my pug 2% of his body weight which comes out to approximately 6 ounces per day. any more than that, and he would be a fat dog. less than that is not enough for him. We usually fit in the 3-5% of dogs body weight.
> 
> he does not get a whole lot of exercise, other than 1/2 - 1 mile of walking per day.
> 
> the six ounces he gets keeps him nice and stocky without being chubby and he still has a waist.
> 
> but i only feed protein, organ, and bone.
> 
> do you count your veggies, grains and fruits as part of the weighted amount you feed?


We believe that the best way to measure your dog's meal is to look at your dog. If you give him to much you will see that very soon, and on the other side if there is less than needed you will be able to see that too. My dog has around 23kg, and I give her 1kg of food per day. Maybe a little bit over that since she is still developing.


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## xellil

So I just have to ask - what does "Filth" mean to you folks from Serbia?


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## Filth

xellil said:


> So I just have to ask - what does "Filth" mean to you folks from Serbia?


Do you ask "what do I as a person mean to them?" or "what does a word "filth" means to us? "

If you ask a second one, it means the same as to you guys over there.  I used English word for my nickname it doesn't have anything to do with serbian.


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## xellil

Thanks - just checking


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## Filth

I posted some more pictures on page 11., that just now became visible. You can check it out if you want.


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## SonyaBullyDog

I'm new to raw and I do feed prey model, but I really want to know what specific nutrients you think are missing from a purely meat/bones/organs diet? If you have time, can you please list the specific vitamins/minerals/nutrients that are missing in animal tissue? I feed pork necks, pork heart, pork liver, pork kidney, beef heart, beef liver, beef kidney, eggs, turkey wings, turkey necks, turkey hearts, chicken gizzards, chicken hearts, salmon oil, tilapia filets, and rarely goat. My dog has environmental allergies and is very itchy and she often gets fungal infections in her toes and ears. Do you have any suggestions? I tried giving zinc pills, but there was no difference so I stopped. 

It's always good to hear everyone's opinions, because it might help a dog who is having trouble on a specific diet..

Thanks!

edit: I just saw that you listed the specific vitamins that you think are deficient in meat on page 11.


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## Diana M.

Vitamins and minerals are essential dog to the same extent throughout life. A puppy needs more than an adult dog, working dog than a dog that does not work, the old dog more than an ordinary dog, etc. ...
Take for example my pregnant females, as much meat she needs to eat to get more vitamin C than an ordinary dog?
Or puppies in growth and development that needs more than an adult dog. Puppies eat more, quantitatively, but can not bring a sufficient amount of vitamins and minerals just true meat and bones.


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## naturalfeddogs

Filth said:


> @JayJayisme
> 
> I don't know what problem do you have with us, but I find you completely irritating from the very beginning. If meals that you can see in the pictures looks like kibble to you, than you have a serious problem. We said couple a times, meat is at least 70% of every meal we made, the rest is a combination of few of listed ingredients. You can see it all in the pictures, but you just don't want to cause you are dreaming that this is kibble and food that you are preparing is heaven...dream on.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Wiliana please post him a picture of your dog eating just meat and than a picture of your dog eating meat + nonabsorbable supplements. If that is not a proof I don't know what it is.
> 
> 
> And Jay if you can tell me what do you feed your dog with? What is the main part of his/her diet? What meat, what part of what animal? What organs? I would be very thankful.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, you're right. But looks like your point is to have a good laugh on others opinion, and to say that every food is kibble that is not strictly the same food as you prepare it. Very interesting and constructive way of thinking.


Hmmmm...these folks are starting to sound more like a commercial style of an organazation to me, rather than an individual who believes in feeding BARF their way. They have come in as a group as though their way is THE way. I'm just getting a strange feeling about them. I'm starting to not take them serious. JMO here.


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## RawFedDogs

Filth said:


> First of all, I would like to ask you for some respect. The fact that we are new here doesn't mean that we are new in "dog feeding" area.


Actually, I suspect you are relatively new. I went throught these same stages 9 years ago. After much research and consulting with authorities in the field decided this is not the way to go. Feeding a carnivore an omniover diet is just not right. Their bodies were not designed to handle plant matter. Forcing them to eat such unnatural food will in time cause the same health problems that feeding kibble does.



> Both sides have their ways of preparing food, the best way to find which one is better for the health of our dogs is to show arguments and discuss normally and with respect. By showing respect I mean not to compare our food to kibble at first. That is disrespecting, and we found that insulting. On the other side do not identify our food to BARF or something else, cause it is simply not that.


I think you are getting upset over nothing about the kibble comments. They were meant as compliments and your defenciveness turnied them around into insults. You can get upset if you want to but you are feeeding a BARF diet. I don't know how you can say it's not.



> Once again, our meals are prepared of 70% meat and 30% natural supplements(veggies, fruits, grains, dairy products..).


Which is exactly what a barf diet is. BTW: there is nothiing natural about feeding a dog veggies, fruits or dairy products. Nutritionwise there is no reason to do so. I think you (the group you not the individual you) have done is a lot of research around the internet and assembled a lot of internet myths about canine nutrition.



> I feed my dog vegetables and fruits firstly because of the vitamins and minerals they provide.


Problem is that there is no vitamins or minerals in plants that is not in the meat, bones, and organs of the prey animals that eat them. Canines just have no need at all for plant material in their diet. A million years of evolution proves that.



> @RFD Do you know what are dogs needs of vitamins and minerals on daily basis?


There is no nutrient that a dog needs on a daily baisis with the possible exception of water.



> Do you know how many vitamins and minerals are in meat?


Yes, thats easy information to find on the USDA webpage. http://www.nal.usda.gov/fnic/foodcomp/search/



> Do you know what are vitamins an minerals for, and what can or can not be done with or without them?


For the most part, yes. You see, I've been doing this for 10 years. I didn't just start this yesterday. I have been in thousands of discussions just like this one. There is nothing new in this thread. I've seen it all many times before.



> You said that dog gets all the vitamins and minerals needed from meat? I wouldn't agree. I would say it gets enough to survive, but not to have a long healthy life. Insufficient intake of vitamins will cause problems sooner or later.


Again, a million years of evolution says you are wrong. If you were correct, canines would have gone extince hundreds of thousands of years ago. Nature supplies every species with all the nutrition it needs for a long healthy life. When part of that nutrition disappears for one reason or another, the species becomes extinct.



> There are some vitamins and minerals in meat, bones and organs but the amount of them is not enough for the basic functions in dogs body. For example, if dog gets a Calcium from a bone, he/she needs a Vitamin D in order to absorb that Calcium. The amount of Vitamin D found in meat, bones and organs is not enough to absorb the amount of Ca dog gets from a bone. That is why we put an egg in the bowl, or a dairy products. It is great source of Vitamin D in this case, and dog needs them.


Again, a million years of evolution says you are wrong. Most dogs are lactose intolerant so dairy products in general are not good for them. I have never given my dogs vitamin D other than what is naturally in their diet. Remember one of them has been eating my way for 9 years. Not one bit of plant matter during that whole time.



> Does a dog needs to eat the same with 3 months of age and with 8 years?


Yes. My 7 year old eats exactly the same that he ate when he was 12 weeks old. Even the same amount.



> Meat, bones and organs at 3 months, meat bones and organs at 15 years, meat bones and organs when pregnant or breast feeding, meat bones and organs when sick? Completely same diet in every phase of life dog is going through?


Basically yes. There may be a few rare diseases that a dog can get that would cause an adjustment of the amount of bone or organs but generally, yes. Same diet from birth to death. Meat, bones, and organs from a variety of animals. Thats it. It's as simple as that. Don't dry to complicate a very simple process. I think thats what you(the collective you) have done. You have taken a very simple process and worked and worked with it until you couldn't make it any more complex. Once you reached that point, you are happy. :smile:



> We stick to the theory that you have to adjust to your dogs needs in different phases. If a dog has a skin, vision or hair problems you can add to his diet tomato, pepper, spinach or dairy products which are all great sources of Vitamin A.


Skin or hair problems? More fish in the diet or add some fish body oil or salmon oil. All that is meat or meat based. No need for plant matter. If you need more vitamin A in the diet feed more liver. I have no problems making adjust ments like that. I do have a serious problem with adding tomatoes, pepper, spinach, or dairy products. All of those are unnatural "foods".



> Same thing for the immune system. If you have a pregnant bitch you have to increase her intake of Vitamin C. The best way to do it is to give her some fruits and other veggies that provide Vitamin C. If you have a puppy developing adding dairy products or egg shells(and bones of course) will provide him necessary intake of Ca. And so on...


Vitamin C is the last thing you want to give to your dog. Dogs can produce all the vitamin C their body needs. Adding more accomplishes nothing more than producing expensive urine. Excess Vitamine is immediately filtered out by way of the kidneys. I have no problems adding egg shells but much prefer just feeding more bone. The question I ask is how do you measure to determine more of these things are needed? Again I suspect internet myths.



> If you only use liver to fulfill the dogs needs for many Vitamins and Minerals you will very soon end with a dog with hypervitaminosis A.


Before you could feed that much liver, your dog would have severe diarrhea for a long time.



> If you want to provide your dog a Vitamin C and you use a liver for that purpose, a dog will get to much vitamin A.


The dog's liver produces all the vitamin C the body needs. No need to add more. A million years of evolution.



> That's why we suggest you to use vegetables and fruits and have many ways to provide your dogs what they need.


Taking a very simple task and making it very complex. Totally unnecessary. If these veggies were necessary, either the dog would have a method of digesting them in their whole raw form or they would be extinct. A million years of evolution proves these things are unneceessary.



> Someone asked about digestion of veggies. We boil veggies very short just to change their structure that dog can digest them. Of course, we give tomato, pepper etc. fresh, and none of our dogs have problems with digesting it.


Bet you don't have a clue about the bioavailability of those things. It is very close to zero.



> And one more question for all. Why does your dog eats grass when you take him outside? Cause it is sweet? Cause it tastes good? Or maybe cause he/she feels a need for it? Think about it...


I can tell you what it's not for. It's not for nutrition. When they eat grass they either vomit it back pretty quickly or it comes out the anus twisted into a little rope. Wonder how they do that? :smile: Either way, it looks the same coming out as it did going in which means no nutrition was extracted.

Again, trying to convert a carnivore into an omnivore is just not right and cannot be healthy over the long term. I say your dogs look good in spite of the diet you are feeding them.


----------



## Liz

Sounds like a group to me also. I have fed prey model raw to my bitches during pregancy, in whelp and weaned my pups onto prey model raw. They get meat, bone and organ. The have done phenominally. It is not luck either because on of the dams was my 7 year old collie. She has 7 lovely pups and this was her first raw fed litter and by far the easiest she has whelped. The pup grew at a nice even pace, maintained excellent coat and energy. The same was the case for my young sheltie. These girls and their pups were able in "some way" to get all the nutrients needs to produce and whelp lovely litters in excellent health with ease and for the pups to grow healthy and strong. No supplements, nothign else - except for meat, bone and organ. Dogs are amazing when you feed them just what they need.


----------



## Diana M.

More photos


----------



## Filth

naturalfeddogs said:


> Hmmmm...these folks are starting to sound more like a commercial style of an organazation to me, rather than an individual who believes in feeding BARF their way. They have come in as a group as though their way is THE way. I'm just getting a strange feeling about them. I'm starting to not take them serious. JMO here.


Yea...good old Serbs. 

We are all part of another forum, we all know each other personally, we all know each other's dogs. What is a problem with that? I told wiliana to post a picture of her dog because it shows what I'm talking about in best way. I would post picture of my dog, but I fed her this way since she was 2 months old, so you would not be able to see the difference. 

Why would you run away now?! Stay here and prove that your way is THE way. And feel free to post pictures of whatever dog you want as long as it is going to prove your point. I would actually like to see your point, proof, arguments, pictures...I find that interesting. Prove that dog gets everything he/she needs from meat, prove that all vitamin and mineral needs are fulfilled, prove that you tried our way and it shown worse results...

And feel free to join our forum in whatever shape or form you like.


----------



## Diana M.

Liz said:


> Sounds like a group to me also. I have fed prey model raw to my bitches during pregancy, in whelp and weaned my pups onto prey model raw. They get meat, bone and organ. The have done phenominally. It is not luck either because on of the dams was my 7 year old collie. She has 7 lovely pups and this was her first raw fed litter and by far the easiest she has whelped. The pup grew at a nice even pace, maintained excellent coat and energy. The same was the case for my young sheltie. These girls and their pups were able in "some way" to get all the nutrients needs to produce and whelp lovely litters in excellent health with ease and for the pups to grow healthy and strong. No supplements, nothign else - except for meat, bone and organ. Dogs are amazing when you feed them just what they need.



I usually say sect
Yes, maybe we sound strange, but we learn every day together, exchange experiences, talk, make meals that will surprise those others, even when we know so well.
No one convince that our "way" is The Only, but we show you how we do it, liked it or not, you have the right to choose. If you like, you are going to work in youre own way, not on our


----------



## Diana M.

Meal:










beef throat,beef hart, ang horse meat










melons, beets, peaches, tomatoes, watermelon










in a bowl


----------



## Diana M.

Just fish


----------



## Diana M.

Chicken necks, chicken backs, chicken liver, chicken heart, egg and carrots. My dogs love fresh carrots


----------



## Diana M.

beet, broccoli, spinach, pepper

Bone soup, plum, cherry, flakes, nettle


















beef breast, horse meat


----------



## Diana M.

roe and milt, spinach and rice


----------



## naturalfeddogs

Filth said:


> Yea...good old Serbs.
> 
> We are all part of another forum, we all know each other personally, we all know each other's dogs. What is a problem with that? I told wiliana to post a picture of her dog because it shows what I'm talking about in best way. I would post picture of my dog, but I fed her this way since she was 2 months old, so you would not be able to see the difference.
> 
> Why would you run away now?! Stay here and prove that your way is THE way. And feel free to post pictures of whatever dog you want as long as it is going to prove your point. I would actually like to see your point, proof, arguments, pictures...I find that interesting. Prove that dog gets everything he/she needs from meat, prove that all vitamin and mineral needs are fulfilled, prove that you tried our way and it shown worse results...
> 
> And feel free to join our forum in whatever shape or form you like.


RUN AWAY? really? No. Have you not heard enough points, proof, arguments etc.. already? You have your feelings on BARF, I on PMR. Thats the way it WILL stay.


----------



## JayJayisme

Filth said:


> @JayJayisme
> 
> I don't know what problem do you have with us, but I find you completely irritating from the very beginning.


I don't have a problem with you personally. I have a problem with the ingredients in your raw diet and I find your lack of logical reasoning to be equally irritating. "Because my dogs look good" isn't much of an argument. 

I've stated over and over again that this isn't personal. I don't know how many different ways I need to say it. 



Filth said:


> If meals that you can see in the pictures looks like kibble to you, than you have a serious problem.


Have you ever seen kibble before it's ground up, extruded, and cooked? It's pretty much what you have there.



Filth said:


> We said couple a times, meat is at least 70% of every meal we made, the rest is a combination of few of listed ingredients. You can see it all in the pictures, but you just don't want to cause you are dreaming that this is kibble and food that you are preparing is heaven...dream on.


All that means to me is that 30% of your meals are useless filler. I can clearly and plainly see it in your photos. I see meat and bone (good) and plant matter (not good IMHO). Why is this so hard to understand?



Filth said:


> Wiliana please post him a picture of your dog eating just meat and than a picture of your dog eating meat + nonabsorbable supplements. If that is not a proof I don't know what it is..


Don't bother. What kind of proof is a picture of a dog eating something? How does that override millions of years of evolution and the very obvious physiological characteristics of a carnivore? My dogs will eat cake if I drop it on the floor. Does that somehow suddenly change the fact that they are carnivores?



Filth said:


> And Jay if you can tell me what do you feed your dog with? What is the main part of his/her diet? What meat, what part of what animal? What organs? I would be very thankful.


This is just proof that you ignored my advice to read the archived messages on this forum first before you started pushing your beliefs here. If you did that, you would know what I feed my dogs. But since you didn't, here is a summary. They eat raw meat (beef, chicken, pork, bison, venison, antelope, etc.), raw animal fat (since this is an essential macronutrient, especially for a carnivore), raw animal bones, and gently dried organ meat (mostly liver and spleen - they won't eat it raw so I make jerky). They also eat eggs and the only supplement I give them is Omega-3, generally through fish oil (they won't eat fish).

That's it. No veggies, fruit, seeds, nuts, dairy, or any other unnecessary food.



Filth said:


> Yes, you're right. But looks like your point is to have a good laugh on others opinion, and to say that every food is kibble that is not strictly the same food as you prepare it. Very interesting and constructive way of thinking.


I wasn't laughing at you, I was laughing at others here who seem so offended by my bluntness in confronting your premise and who use the "why can't we all get along" position while claiming that this raw feeding forum is the only place on this site where people are extremely opinionated. There is just as much passion and opinion over on the kibble forum where posters frequently rail against commercial pet food with too much plant matter in it, and that was my only point about that. If you proposed feeding a kibble that is 30% plant matter, it would cause an uproar over there. I was just poking some fun at some of the other members here who think PMR feeders are the only passionate ones here.


----------



## SerenityFL

JayJayisme said:


> Look through the thread again. On the first page, after the OP, there are no less than six posts asking why the veggies, grains, seeds, etc. People were just asking. On the second page, I posted my world famous chicken recipe but said nothing more at that point. Then a couple posts later, the OP said,
> 
> "These are our recipes, and we are very proud of them
> Why We drop fruit and vegetables in meals?
> We do not feed our dogs only RAW because I think that it is impossible to imitate nature. Dogs need the stomach contents of prey, bacteria, in nature they eat some fruit,.... Because we interfere fruits and vegetables with meat and bones.
> We do not have opportunities to give them live chicken , so we strive to complement their diet."
> 
> That is when the PMR feeders here realized the OP was misinformed about several things, notably that veggies are necessary, that wild dogs eat the stomach content of their prey, and that PMR somehow means feeding live prey.
> 
> So we're all suppose to sit back without informing the OP of the facts about PMR and how they conflict with their understanding about raw feeding principles? Really? Is this forum so PC that we all have to join hands, sing kumbaya, and fart rainbows all day long just because some new raw feeder joined the group?
> 
> Give me a break. Nobody was malicious or mean spirited and nobody said they weren't welcomed here. The discussion my have become passionate but so what. Many of them do around here and the OP is handling it just fine. And maybe they are learning a thing or two along the way.


I sure do love it when people put words in to my mouth, it's such a delight.

You had posted before this that they should read for awhile before coming in and talking about what they do as if to say your way is the only way. I don't agree with that. Again, this is the RAW feeding section, BARF is considered RAW, if you do not like BARF or agree with BARF, you do not have to read about BARF. It was pretty evident in the title of the thread what it was about.

You don't have to like it, agree with it or care about it, but it is raw feeding and they posted in the correct section. You insinuated with two posts that they had better see what others think before they post. I disagree. They are welcome to post. It's fine to ask questions about why someone adds something or why they feed a certain way but it sure is getting old to see some people acting like their way is the only way.


----------



## JayJayisme

Azra maltese said:


> Could you, please, provide a link so we can all see how "vitamin C can be harmfull to dogs" ?


I don't recall where I read this, it may have been in a book. And I didn't say *I personally believe* that vitamin C is harmful to dogs. I only said some experts believe this. Sorry, I don't have time to dig up a reference.


----------



## RawFedDogs

I don't care what you think, those 3 pictures of veggies are just not proper dog food. I think all the nutritional research you Serbs say you have done has been human nutrition, not canine nutrition. There is a big difference and I'm not sure you are aware of that.


----------



## wiliana

Filth asked me to post photo of my dog while he was on a meat diet for aprox. 6 months

this winter









5-6 month later, after eating this kind of diet









activity level and trainings are the same then and now. on the first pict he is 2,5 years or little more, on the second 3 years old and something more.
why we came in group here? because we are all interested in feeding, like all of you are. it is always more interesting when there are more people sharing the same oppinion then when you are alone. especially here...i can not imagine how would it be that only one of us came... there is no chance that one person would have a time to speak with all of you... when we found this forum, we said- hey, there is one great forum with people who are interested in dog feeding, that's awesome, lets meet those folks! we were very happy to found this kind of forum, cause we thought that here is normal to speak about your reason for feeding some diet... that should be normal


----------



## Grivana

RawFedDogs said:


> ... Their bodies were not designed to handle plant matter. Forcing them to eat such unnatural food will in time cause the same health problems that feeding kibble does.


One of my dogs is 21 years old. Her name is Linda and her diet is exactly the same as this diet we are talking about here. She ate, eat and she will be eating meat, bones, organs, vegetables, fruit... My point is that she never had any health problem even do she eat vegetables and fruit. She is one healthy old dog.


----------



## naturalfeddogs

Grivana said:


> One of my dogs is 21 years old. Her name is Linda and her diet is exactly the same as this diet we are talking about here. She ate, eat and she will be eating meat, bones, organs, vegetables, fruit... My point is that she never had any health problem even do she eat vegetables and fruit. She is one healthy old dog.


Because of the meat,bones and organs. The rest is basicaly "filler" making you feel like its actualy doing something. Sorry, but RFD is right.


----------



## Diana M.

JayJayisme said:


> I don't recall where I read this, it may have been in a book. And I didn't say *I personally believe* that vitamin C is harmful to dogs. I only said some experts believe this. Sorry, I don't have time to dig up a reference.


Well, this we called the argument!


----------



## MiniSchnauzerLove

Hello everyone!
How I can see most of you said that a dog is a carnivore. And I agree. But nothing is black and white, especially in nature, so a dog is not obligate carnivore. Like a cat. The proof is in their genetics. Can anyone explain where the dogs ability to convert carotene (the vitamin A). Carotene is a provitamin found in plants and to be transformed into an active form requires the enzyme carotinaza. Dogs synthesize the enzyme carotinaza. 
Some will say that the liver is rich in vitamin A, of course it is, but nature has created an alternative to a new source, carotene.
For the benefit of the dog.


----------



## Diana M.

RawFedDogs said:


> I don't care what you think, those 3 pictures of veggies are just not proper dog food. I think all the nutritional research you Serbs say you have done has been human nutrition, not canine nutrition. There is a big difference and I'm not sure you are aware of that.


It`s not only knowledge but also experience. Many dogs, healthy dogs, puppies and adults who grow up and live on this kind of diet, is more than enough to show that we do not mistake.


----------



## Grivana

naturalfeddogs said:


> Because of the meat,bones and organs. The rest is basicaly "filler" making you feel like its actualy doing something. Sorry, but RFD is right.


You forgot to put that sentence where RFD say that this unnatural food (you all think that's vegetables and fruit) will cause health problems!! Well, surprise!! It will not! My dog is still alive and healthy!


----------



## CorgiPaws

Is it that big of a deal that what they feed is not EXACTLY what pmr people feed?? They have healthy dogs, are feeding REAL FOOD and all we can do is attack them and tell them they are totally wrong? 
Get over yourselves. Not everyone agrees that Pmr is the only way, and some people do need the "scientific proof." 
I think PMR is the absolute best way and believe strongly in the benefits, YES. But seriously, 70% real raw meat is WAY better than what most dogs get. Splitting hairs over it is pretty ridiculous.


----------



## JayJayisme

PuppyPaws said:


> But seriously, 70% real raw meat is WAY better than what most dogs get. Splitting hairs over it is pretty ridiculous.


I don't think anyone has been "attacked" and I don't think this is "splitting hairs". If 30% of my diet was Coco Puffs, I'd probably be dead. 30% is not insignificant with regards to any diet.


----------



## Azra maltese

Grivana said:


> You forgot to put that sentence where RFD say that this unnatural food (you all think that's vegetables and fruit) will cause health problems!! Well, surprise!! It will not! My dog is still alive and healthy!


No, Grivana, like Bill said, "million years of evolution" are proving that it's impossible for a dog to live 21 YEARS unless he is fed acording to his RELIGION!!!


----------



## Azra maltese

JayJayisme said:


> I don't think anyone has been "attacked" and I don't think this is "splitting hairs". If 30% of my diet was Coco Puffs, I'd probably be dead. 30% is not insignificant with regards to any diet.


With all due respect, your claims can not be taken seriously unless you provide a reference for your claim "that there are some EXPERTS finding vitamin C is harmful for a dog" !


----------



## magicre

PuppyPaws said:


> Is it that big of a deal that what they feed is not EXACTLY what pmr people feed?? They have healthy dogs, are feeding REAL FOOD and all we can do is attack them and tell them they are totally wrong?
> Get over yourselves. Not everyone agrees that Pmr is the only way, and some people do need the "scientific proof."
> I think PMR is the absolute best way and believe strongly in the benefits, YES. But seriously, 70% real raw meat is WAY better than what most dogs get. Splitting hairs over it is pretty ridiculous.


Agreed.

i have yet to see the scientific proof. i've seen the physiology of a dog and the anatomy which makes me 'think' that pmr is a good way to feed.

i also am listening to some compelling statements by our new friends from serbia and they are also making some compelling statements.

since none of this can be proven one way or another, i'd say a dog who is still going at 21 is making a statement of her own.

so i may have to rethink this whole feeding thing. 

chances are, i will continue pmr, but there is always that chance that i will start reading about barf.

there are different ways for humans to eat.....some believe we should eat a largely meat based diet. others think we should eat largely a plant based diet.

each one thinks they are right and can produce enough evidence that supports what they believe.

i don't honestly know who is right and who is not. 

after all, though, we have a habit of saying the proof is in the dog and i can't argue with a living breathing active 21 year old dog.

and, just as an aside, how did my avatar become microscopic?


----------



## Diana M.

JayJayisme said:


> I don't think anyone has been "attacked" and I don't think this is "splitting hairs". If 30% of my diet was Coco Puffs, I'd probably be dead. 30% is not insignificant with regards to any diet.



Perhaps our English is bad?
In those 30% are all other: soup, vegetables, fruits, rice, dairy products. Of course, everyone for his/her dog knows what he does not feel good and not used as food, is it necessary to bold?


----------



## PDXdogmom

JayJayisme said:


> I don't think anyone has been "attacked" and I don't think this is "splitting hairs". If 30% of my diet was Coco Puffs, I'd probably be dead. 30% is not insignificant with regards to any diet.


You're seriously comparing Coco Puffs to carrots, zucchini, etc.?


----------



## Caty M

I think he was meaning that carrots and zucchini also are basically empty calories and sugar if nothing useful can be extracted....


----------



## Diana M.

Caty M said:


> I think he was meaning that carrots and zucchini also are basically empty calories and sugar if nothing useful can be extracted....


fiber, oils, vitamins,....?


----------



## CorgiPaws

JayJayisme said:


> I don't think anyone has been "attacked" and I don't think this is "splitting hairs". If 30% of my diet was Coco Puffs, I'd probably be dead. 30% is not insignificant with regards to any diet.


If these people came on feeding Beneful and switched to Evo, they'd be applauded. 
What they are feeding is leaps and bounds above any kibble. Their dogs are healthy, getting real food, and thriving. Perhaps if they ever have an issue, we can steer them to pmr and I'm positive it would be the solution. But until then, they are certain they are just as right as you are certain you are right so why not just be happy more dogs are getting real food? I applaud them for feeding a home prepared diet, especially one that is not 60% plant matter like most barf feeders!


----------



## spook

MiniSchnauzerLove said:


> Hello everyone!
> How I can see most of you said that a dog is a carnivore. And I agree. But nothing is black and white, especially in nature, so a dog is not obligate carnivore. Like a cat. The proof is in their genetics. Can anyone explain where the dogs ability to convert carotene (the vitamin A). Carotene is a provitamin found in plants and to be transformed into an active form requires the enzyme carotinaza. Dogs synthesize the enzyme carotinaza.
> Some will say that the liver is rich in vitamin A, of course it is, but nature has created an alternative to a new source, carotene.
> For the benefit of the dog.


*Yes! Yes! Yes!
This is the best thing you can do for your bitch.
Life is about learning. Part of my core instinct is to help people out. As part of this, I feela great desire to ensure that we look after our friends.
With my show dogs, I call the raw diet, "my secret advantage". On one level I would much prefer that my competitors don't feed the raw diet, as I know their dogs will not be in the same condition as my guys. But on the other hand, what I want most, is for dogs to be healthy, regardless of who owns them.
:usa:*


----------



## Caty M

Diana M. said:


> fiber, oils, vitamins,....?


No one said there is no nutrition in them... just that little to none can be extracted by our carnivorous pets.


----------



## JayJayisme

Azra maltese said:


> With all due respect, your claims can not be taken seriously unless you provide a reference for your claim "that there are some EXPERTS finding vitamin C is harmful for a dog" !


With all due respect, you haven't provided hardly any references to support your beliefs so please don't try to deflect your lack of responses to questions back onto me. You still haven't provided any support for your position that a dog is an omnivore or that they are able to extract any nutrients from some of the things you feed. Even humans cannot extract much from things like flax seed (linseed). FYI, the best way to get the Omega-3 benefits from flax seed is to feed it to a chicken, then eat the chicken. 

As I said, I think I read the vitamin C controversy it in a book and I'm not about to get all my dog books off the shelf to try to find it. It was a rather lengthy and science-heavy article. But here is a basic summary of what I remember reading.

Why Canine Vitamin C Supplements Aren't Necessary - VetInfo

Cheers!


----------



## cprcheetah

Azra maltese said:


> OK, understand, sorry for not being clear or it's my English. It's not the matter of show dog only, but white show dog with a long white mustaches  I am feeding raw meet only (again, excluding pork), but chopped to preserve hair. When giving bones, mustaches have to be fully packed.
> So, my point is not that I can not feed raw cause she is a show dog, but that I can not feed whole or half of the prey. Therefore, on our way I think that I can better balance all necessary ingredients.


 I have a friend with Shih Tzu show dogs who feeds raw, they have LONG LONG hair, so it can be done


----------



## xellil

Grivana said:


> One of my dogs is 21 years old. Her name is Linda and her diet is exactly the same as this diet we are talking about here. She ate, eat and she will be eating meat, bones, organs, vegetables, fruit... My point is that she never had any health problem even do she eat vegetables and fruit. She is one healthy old dog.


I really believe alot is genetics - I mentioned on another thread my brother's dog he brought back from Okinawa - she had been living out of garbage cans before they got her, and they fher ed awful bagged food - whatever they got cheapest from the feed store. In addition, she continued to eat garbage and all kinds of awful things her whole life, and she lived healthily until 22.

I also think we feed what we works, until it doesn't work any more. I fed dry food until it didn't work any more.


----------



## cprcheetah

MiniSchnauzerLove said:


> Hello everyone!
> How I can see most of you said that a dog is a carnivore. And I agree. But nothing is black and white, especially in nature, so a dog is not obligate carnivore. Like a cat. The proof is in their genetics. Can anyone explain where the dogs ability to convert carotene (the vitamin A). Carotene is a provitamin found in plants and to be transformed into an active form requires the enzyme carotinaza. Dogs synthesize the enzyme carotinaza.
> Some will say that the liver is rich in vitamin A, of course it is, but nature has created an alternative to a new source, carotene.
> For the benefit of the dog.


I do commend you for feeding BARF as it is WORLDS above even the BEST kibble, however, just want to make sure that people are aware of some things, (in case and newbies come and see this thread). I did a lot of research about Organs as there was a period of time that my dog Zoey absolutely REFUSED to eat them at all cost. So my personal opinion is that the veggies are not needed as you can get the source of everything just from PMR, BUT that is MY PERSONAL BELIEF and feeling on this subject.

When I was researching about organs, this is some of what I found

According to the USDA: After *organ meats*, which have as much as 9,000 mg of vitamin A the reliable carrot is the No. 1 source of this essential nutrient
Read more: Beta Carotene Foods - Top Sources of Beta Carotene - The Daily Green

Beta Carotene Foods - Top Sources of Beta Carotene - The Daily Green
Liver 
In this one product is a vast range of important nutrition. Liver is the most concentrated source of vitamin A and should be fed in small amounts on a regular basis. It also contains vitamins D, E, and K in substantial quantities. Liver is an excellent source of the minerals zinc, manganese, selenium and iron. It also contains all the B vitamins, particularly B2, B3, B5, biotin, folacin, B12, choline, and inositol. It contains B1 in adequate or smaller amounts and is a good source of vitamin C. Liver provides a source of good quality protein and the essential fatty acids, both the omega-3 and omega-6 type. 

Kidneys 
Not unlike liver, kidney supplies good quality protein, essential fatty acids and many vitamins including all the fat soluble vitamins A, D, E and K. Kidneys are a rich source of iron and all the B vitamins. They also have good levels of zinc.

Got this from a "Barf Website" BARF Diet Specifics - Bones, Meat, Offal, Vegetables, Fruits & Other Nutrition Food Products for Pet
OFFAL
Internal organs form a vital part of the wild dog's diet. Modern dogs have similar requirements. Dogs consuming these foods as part of a sensible diet have superior health to dogs that do not eat them. Although organ meats are valuable dog food, they are not required in huge amounts. They are a concentrated source of many essential nutrients and are particularly valuable during times of growth, reproduction and stress as a source of concentrated nutrients.

Liver
In this one product is a vast range of important nutrition. Liver is the most concentrated source of vitamin A and should be fed in small amounts on a regular basis. It also contains vitamins D, E, and K in substantial quantities. Liver is an excellent source of the minerals zinc, manganese, selenium and iron. It also contains all the B vitamins, particularly B2, B3, B5, biotin, folacin, B12, choline, and inositol. It contains B1 in adequate or smaller amounts and is a good source of vitamin C. Liver provides a source of good quality protein and the essential fatty acids, both the omega-3 and omega-6 type. It's a fantastic food for your dog!

Kidneys
Not unlike liver, kidney supplies good quality protein, essential fatty acids and many vitamins including all the fat soluble vitamins A, D, E and K. Kidneys are a rich source of iron and all the B vitamins. They also have good levels of zinc.

Heart
Like liver and kidneys, heart as dog food is an excellent source of protein, B vitamins and iron. They do contain some essential fatty acids and a little vitamin A. Heart contains appreciable levels of taurine which is important food... for the heart!

Tripe
Tripe is the edible lining and accompanying content of a cow or other ruminant's first or second division of the stomach. Paunch tripe comes from the large first stomach division and honeycomb tripe comes from the second division. Both wild canids and domestic dogs benefit from eating tripe as it contains a very diverse profile of living nutrients including enzymes, omega- 3 and 6 fatty acids, probiotics, and phytonutrients. It has long been quoted as being "the finest of natural foods".

WHOLE EGG
Eggs are absolutely brilliant nutrition for your dog. Eggs are a whole food, and often regarded as being the perfect protein source. It is the one against which all other proteins are measured. Eggs contain a full compliment of minerals, including excellent levels of calcium (mostly in the yolk), all the vitamins except vitamin C and a range of high quality saturated and unsaturated fatty acids, the nutrient lecithin and the whole range of enzymes and other longevity factors always present in raw foods. The shell is removed in order to balance the calcium requirements in a natural diet. Egg yolks are an essential food for a dog with skin problems. They contain sulphur containing amino acids, biotin, vitamin A, essential fatty acids and zinc.


----------



## cprcheetah

xellil said:


> I really believe alot is genetics - I mentioned on another thread my brother's dog he brought back from Okinawa - she had been living out of garbage cans before they got her, and they fher ed awful bagged food - whatever they got cheapest from the feed store. In addition, she continued to eat garbage and all kinds of awful things her whole life, and she lived healthily until 22.
> 
> I also think we feed what we works, until it doesn't work any more. I fed dry food until it didn't work any more.


Yep I think it does depend on the genetics, my dad has a 21 year old cat who has had kidney failure for 3 years now who has been living on Fancy Feast, Whiskas & Friskies canned food and is pretty much thriving (ok so maybe not 'thriving' per say but he's still onery and kicking)......So while a proper diet CAN in my opinion extend their lives, I've seen several extremely old patients who have eaten nothing but CRAP in their life at the Vet I work for.


----------



## RawFedDogs

Grivana said:


> One of my dogs is 21 years old. Her name is Linda and her diet is exactly the same as this diet we are talking about here. She ate, eat and she will be eating meat, bones, organs, vegetables, fruit... My point is that she never had any health problem even do she eat vegetables and fruit. She is one healthy old dog.


Thats great. I love it when a dog lives to old age. However, I think you can thank the meat, bones, and organs for that. Veggies, fruit, etc. made no contribution. By the way ... possibly we got a little carried away ... the plant matter you are feeding your dogs are probably not really harming them but they aren't helping them either. Dog's whole digestive system is just not designed to handle these things. Again, you can't convert a carnivore to an omnivore just by feeding him omnivore food. If a dog cannot digest and extract nutrients from a whole raw food item, that food item is wrong for the dog. He can get all the nutrients he needs from a diet of raw meat, bones, and organs.

Congratulations on such a long lived dog. :smile:


----------



## tem_sat

Azra maltese said:


> No, Grivana, like Bill said, "million years of evolution" are proving that it's impossible for a dog to live 21 YEARS unless he is fed acording to his RELIGION!!!


Not exactly. I have a Shih Tzu mix who is over 25. He ate kibble for his entire life and has been on PMR for approximately 1 year. He loves it, the teeth he has left look great, and he growls for his breakfast now. 

Genetics obviously plays some part, however, I really don't think Bill meant that at all.


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## spook

*****Post Copied From Another Site- Removed by PuppyPaws******


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## Caty M

spook said:


> *****Post Copied From Another Site- Removed by PuppyPaws******


WHy are most of your posts quotes from other websites? Nothing has been added that is of any value.

Quoted from 10 Human Foods Dogs Can Eat - Paw Nation


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## Tobi

spook said:


> *****Post Copied From Another Site- Removed by PuppyPaws******:


Why are you copy and pasting things that really have no relevance?

source for above copy/paste action
10 Human Foods Dogs Can Eat - Paw Nation


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## spook

Tobi said:


> Why are you copy and pasting things that really have no relevance?
> 
> source for above copy/paste action
> 10 Human Foods Dogs Can Eat - Paw Nation


._ you do not understand me wrong ... now for the first time I see this site! Thank you .. very interesting topics ...
_:thumb:


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## Caty M

What? It was copied word for word from that site, with some sentences taken out..


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## xellil

Is it possible for automated programs to post here?


----------



## Filth

RawFedDogs said:


> Dog's whole digestive system is just not designed to handle these things.





RawFedDogs said:


> Again, you can't convert a carnivore to an omnivore just by feeding him omnivore food.




How do you explain this then? 



MiniSchnauzerLove said:


> Can anyone explain where the dogs ability to convert carotene (the vitamin A). Carotene is a provitamin found in plants and to be transformed into an active form requires the enzyme carotinaza. Dogs synthesize the enzyme carotinaza.
> Some will say that the liver is rich in vitamin A, of course it is, but nature has created an alternative to a new source, carotene.
> For the benefit of the dog.


Doesn't their "digestive system lacks the ability to digest vegetable matter" ??? Or Nature made a mistake at this one??? Looks like it is not that simple...








RawFedDogs said:


> If a dog cannot digest and extract nutrients from a whole raw food item, that food item is wrong for the dog.


Who told you that? What are those, your own postulates? If a wolf gets a semi-digested stomach contents of prey, why would dog have to be able to digest it raw?


----------



## xellil

All this stuff being tossed about as fact. Let's look at a study - and I'll even use a study sponsored by Iams.

This is a dog study on beta carotene. the authors were trying to find an animal model to compare to human uptake. Dogs weren't it (surprise, surprise).
Dietary ß-Carotene Is Taken up by Blood Plasma and Leukocytes in Dogs

They found that wolves have zero carotene in their systems. If we model feeding on wolves, that has to say something.

Dogs can absorb carotene. They gave it to them dissolved in water. So probably a carrot wouldn't do it. They also excreted it rapidly, within 24 hours. 

An important sentence in the results _*The physiological importance of these findings is not known.*_ - and then some speculation that it might do some good - but the study was sponsored by Iams.


What does that say to me, a total layman? 
I don't know what benefits carotene would give my dog that's any different than meat sources, if any. 
Wolves don't eat it, or can't absorb it in its native form. 
Websites say "dogs utilize carotene efficiently" but I can't find any real studies to back that up. 
I think there is a distinction between "absorption" and "utilization." 
Where is the proof that the Vitamin A is in their system, and not just the carotene?

I am pretty sure there is no issue with utilizing Vitamin A from liver in its native form.


----------



## spook

xellil said:


> Is it possible for automated programs to post here?


_How do you explain this then? _


----------



## malluver1005

wiliana said:


> http://i899.photobucket.com/albums/ac197/popacns/P4290306.jpg


Aspen would go crazy for a meal that big!!


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## MiniSchnauzerLove

cprcheetah said:


> I do commend you for feeding BARF as it is WORLDS above even the BEST kibble, however, just want to make sure that people are aware of some things, (in case and newbies come and see this thread). I did a lot of research about Organs as there was a period of time that my dog Zoey absolutely REFUSED to eat them at all cost. So my personal opinion is that the veggies are not needed as you can get the source of everything just from PMR, BUT that is MY PERSONAL BELIEF and feeling on this subject.
> 
> When I was researching about organs, this is some of what I found
> 
> According to the USDA: After *organ meats*, which have as much as 9,000 mg of vitamin A the reliable carrot is the No. 1 source of this essential nutrient
> Read more: Beta Carotene Foods - Top Sources of Beta Carotene - The Daily Green
> 
> Beta Carotene Foods - Top Sources of Beta Carotene - The Daily Green
> Liver
> In this one product is a vast range of important nutrition. Liver is the most concentrated source of vitamin A and should be fed in small amounts on a regular basis. It also contains vitamins D, E, and K in substantial quantities. Liver is an excellent source of the minerals zinc, manganese, selenium and iron. It also contains all the B vitamins, particularly B2, B3, B5, biotin, folacin, B12, choline, and inositol. It contains B1 in adequate or smaller amounts and is a good source of vitamin C. Liver provides a source of good quality protein and the essential fatty acids, both the omega-3 and omega-6 type.
> 
> Kidneys
> Not unlike liver, kidney supplies good quality protein, essential fatty acids and many vitamins including all the fat soluble vitamins A, D, E and K. Kidneys are a rich source of iron and all the B vitamins. They also have good levels of zinc.
> 
> Got this from a "Barf Website" BARF Diet Specifics - Bones, Meat, Offal, Vegetables, Fruits & Other Nutrition Food Products for Pet
> OFFAL
> Internal organs form a vital part of the wild dog's diet. Modern dogs have similar requirements. Dogs consuming these foods as part of a sensible diet have superior health to dogs that do not eat them. Although organ meats are valuable dog food, they are not required in huge amounts. They are a concentrated source of many essential nutrients and are particularly valuable during times of growth, reproduction and stress as a source of concentrated nutrients.
> 
> Liver
> In this one product is a vast range of important nutrition. Liver is the most concentrated source of vitamin A and should be fed in small amounts on a regular basis. It also contains vitamins D, E, and K in substantial quantities. Liver is an excellent source of the minerals zinc, manganese, selenium and iron. It also contains all the B vitamins, particularly B2, B3, B5, biotin, folacin, B12, choline, and inositol. It contains B1 in adequate or smaller amounts and is a good source of vitamin C. Liver provides a source of good quality protein and the essential fatty acids, both the omega-3 and omega-6 type. It's a fantastic food for your dog!
> 
> Kidneys
> Not unlike liver, kidney supplies good quality protein, essential fatty acids and many vitamins including all the fat soluble vitamins A, D, E and K. Kidneys are a rich source of iron and all the B vitamins. They also have good levels of zinc.
> 
> Heart
> Like liver and kidneys, heart as dog food is an excellent source of protein, B vitamins and iron. They do contain some essential fatty acids and a little vitamin A. Heart contains appreciable levels of taurine which is important food... for the heart!
> 
> Tripe
> Tripe is the edible lining and accompanying content of a cow or other ruminant's first or second division of the stomach. Paunch tripe comes from the large first stomach division and honeycomb tripe comes from the second division. Both wild canids and domestic dogs benefit from eating tripe as it contains a very diverse profile of living nutrients including enzymes, omega- 3 and 6 fatty acids, probiotics, and phytonutrients. It has long been quoted as being "the finest of natural foods".
> 
> WHOLE EGG
> Eggs are absolutely brilliant nutrition for your dog. Eggs are a whole food, and often regarded as being the perfect protein source. It is the one against which all other proteins are measured. Eggs contain a full compliment of minerals, including excellent levels of calcium (mostly in the yolk), all the vitamins except vitamin C and a range of high quality saturated and unsaturated fatty acids, the nutrient lecithin and the whole range of enzymes and other longevity factors always present in raw foods. The shell is removed in order to balance the calcium requirements in a natural diet. Egg yolks are an essential food for a dog with skin problems. They contain sulphur containing amino acids, biotin, vitamin A, essential fatty acids and zinc.


Basically I agree with you. Point of my post was to prove that dogs use the nutrients from vegetables, have enzymes that digest only substances found in vegetables.
As for eating the whole egg, I do not know if you know that there is an antivitamine avidin in egg white which binds biotin (vitamin H) and prevents its activity. For this reason, i do not give whole egg very often. More often give only the yolk.
You mentioned tripe, you know that some of us feed dogs with cow tripe(rumen) and part of rumen contents. When I first offered that to my dog, she was totally excited in that specific scent. She wanted to eat immediately. I can not describe it, you have to experience it. And therefore fully agree with-"the finest of natural foods".
Now I must go to sleep, and tomorrow I'll write some more facts about dog nutrition.:wink::grouphug:


----------



## xellil

Here's another one (how come all these are sponsored by pet food companies????)
Dietary ß-Carotene Stimulates Cell-Mediated and Humoral Immune Response in Dogs

It looked at immune response, and determined carotene did help boost the immune system.

It also found that some dogs can't absorb it. It DIDN'T address whether those dogs could absorb vitamin A directly, and they didn't do a head to head study with carotene, and, say, liver.

Too many questions, not enough answers. 

And apparently the only people willing to fund this stuff are the people whose financial benefit relates directly to selling us dry dog food.


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## MiniSchnauzerLove

xellil said:


> All this stuff being tossed about as fact. Let's look at a study - and I'll even use a study sponsored by Iams.
> 
> This is a dog study on beta carotene. the authors were trying to find an animal model to compare to human uptake. Dogs weren't it (surprise, surprise).
> Dietary ß-Carotene Is Taken up by Blood Plasma and Leukocytes in Dogs
> 
> They found that wolves have zero carotene in their systems. If we model feeding on wolves, that has to say something.
> 
> Dogs can absorb carotene. They gave it to them dissolved in water. So probably a carrot wouldn't do it. They also excreted it rapidly, within 24 hours.
> 
> An important sentence in the results _*The physiological importance of these findings is not known.*_ - and then some speculation that it might do some good - but the study was sponsored by Iams.
> 
> 
> What does that say to me, a total layman?
> I don't know what benefits carotene would give my dog that's any different than meat sources, if any.
> Wolves don't eat it, or can't absorb it in its native form.
> Websites say "dogs utilize carotene efficiently" but I can't find any real studies to back that up.
> I think there is a distinction between "absorption" and "utilization."
> Where is the proof that the Vitamin A is in their system, and not just the carotene?
> 
> I am pretty sure there is no issue with utilizing Vitamin A from liver in its native form.


Source of my information is not Internet and Google, but college of veterinary medicine and physiology books. I try to present facts.


----------



## xellil

And one last thing - I like a version of Occam's Razor theory by Bertrand Russell which goes like this: _*"Whenever possible, substitute constructions out of known entities for inferences to unknown entities"*_

If I were convinced carrots were necessary for my dog, i would be first in line at the carrot store.

Suppositions that all this plant matter is necessary seem to me to be the "unknown entities" of dog food. As humans, I think we tend to overcomplicate things.

For a long time, my "known entity" was Purina. It was a wrong theory. If I am ever convinced that my dogs need greens and carrots, I don't think I'll be close-minded enough to refuse to change. I'm just not seeing it.


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## RawFedDogs

Filth said:


> How do you explain this then? (added comments about digesting carotene)


What makes you think they do digest carotene and convert it to anything?



> Doesn't their "digestive system lacks the ability to digest vegetable matter" ???


In it's whole raw state, dogs cannot digest vegetable matter. It has to do with all cells in plant material being covered with a protective coat of cellulose. Dogs don't have the tentation nor the jaw movement to make it possible to crush that cellulose. They have no flat teeth nor the ability of horizontal lower jaw movement. Both are necessary to crush the cellulose covering to extract nutrients from plant cells.



> Or Nature made a mistake at this one??? Looks like it is not that simple...


It is exactly that simple and no, nature did not make a mistake UNLESS it was trying to make a dog an omnivore which obviously it isn't.



> Originally Posted by RawFedDogs
> If a dog cannot digest and extract nutrients from a whole raw food item, that food item is wrong for the dog.
> 
> Who told you that? What are those, your own postulates? If a wolf gets a semi-digested stomach contents of prey, why would dog have to be able to digest it raw?


Nature tells me that. It seems I must keep repeating myself. Nature provides all the nutrients necessary for any species to thrive. If that's not the case, the species goes extinct. Wolves have been eating meat, bones, and organs and nothing else. He is incapable of extracting nutrients efficiently from plant material. IF a wolf got semi-digested stomach contents from prey then he MAYBE could extract nutrients from those contents. However, he doesn't. Wolves (or dogs) DON'T eat stomach contents from their prey. They shake out the contents before eating the stomach. I've already posted this one time in this thread but I guess you missed it.

From David Mech's Wolves: Behavior, Ecology and Conservation (2003):

"_Wolves usually tear into the body cavity of large prey and...consume the larger internal organs, such as lungs, heart and liver. The large rumen [, which is one of the main stomach chambers in large ruminant herbivores,]...is usually punctured during removal and its contents spilled. The vegetation in the intestinal tract is of no interest to the wolves, but the stomach lining and intestinal wall are consumed, and their contents further strewn about the kill site."_-p123

_"To grow and maintain their own bodies, wolves need to ingest all the major parts of their herbivorous prey, except the plants in the digestive system." _-p124


From: Foraging and Feeding Ecology of the Gray Wolf (Canis lupus): Lessons from Yellowstone National Park, Wyoming, USA, 
Daniel R. Stahler, Douglas W. Smith and Debra S. Guernsey 

"_Wolves do not feed on the contents of the rumen; so this, along with the larger unbreakable bones and some of the hide, are often the only things remaining when wolves and associated scavengers are done._"

These people are all well known wolf researchers. David Mech spent over 30 years in the wilderness observing and documenting wild wolf behavior. He saw hundreds of wolf kills and observed the wolves eating these kills as well as examining the kill site up close after the wolves left.

When I feed my own dogs whole rabbit, they ALWAYS shake the contents out of the stomach before eating it. Every time.

Neither dogs nor wolves eat stomach contents. I don't know how much more concise my explanation can be.


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## xellil

RawFedDogs said:


> When I feed my own dogs whole rabbit, they ALWAYS shake the contents out of the stomach before eating it. Every time..


I wish I could find a whole rabbit including stomach contents to see this for myself. That would be very cool.


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## Dude and Bucks Mamma

Diana M. said:


> It makes sense
> But where's the fun?


In hearing the bones crunch  I feed PMR so I don't feed veggies, but those are awfully pretty meals! As with everyone else... can I come eat at your houses???

I do not agree with feeding dogs all of the things that you feed (that us raw feeders would consider unnecessary) but I can see that they do get a lot of meat, bone, and organs and that you obviously care about them. In my book, what you are feeding is definitely above and beyond a kibble diet. 



Diana M. said:


> We always start from nature, but ....
> Why do people eat meat? Man has to eat whole grains, fresh fruits and vegetables, not meat and NOT cooked food.
> 
> How many of us can afford a live animal for a dog meal?
> 
> Here`s just one link on the fruit that I just put for my friends ... Nature ...
> 
> Wolves eating berries! - YouTube


Not a lot of us buy live animals for our dogs and I don't think any of us have ever given a live animal to our dogs. I buy meat from farmers nearby who raise and slaughter their own animals. Thanks to Abi, I will be getting the organs from some pigs being slaughtered in the next couple of weeks. They ware owned by a man who raised them himself so I know what they are being fed. It's wonderful. We buy a lot of our meat from grocery stores as well. I, personally would feed ONLY locally and "privately" raised meats, but there aren't enough farmers around here 

As for the berries... I can post a video of my husband eating a bowl of ice cream and it wouldn't mean that he needs it in his diet. 

I hope you don't take offense to us. Too many threads have gone to $hit lately and I hope that us PMR feeders don't chase another RAW FEEDER away from this thread just because you don't feed PMR. We don't have to agree with it but we share this forum with kibble feeders so I hope we can remain civil and share the raw feeding section with a different type of raw feeder. We are simply a passionate group (sometimes TOO passionate) and we are always wanting to know why people feed what we deem unnecessary just like you may want to know why we feed a diet that you may view as lacking necessities.



CavePaws said:


> Honestly, Filth, I think you should make a thread in the Dog Food Recipes section now. Just take your original post and paste that into a new thread. That way, you have a clean slate with just your recipes. I wouldn't bother replying to confrontation in the new thread. Use this one to continue the debate. You've got a nice thing going here and I think it would be cool to see a few more full posts of your recipes. In their very own thread housed by the Dog Food Recipes section. :wink:


I agree. I may not agree with it and wouldn't feed it to my dogs, but I have thoroughly enjoyed looking at the pictures and wishing I could have the food you are giving to your dogs. I would visit the recipe thread quite often if you were to post yours there :biggrin1:



Grivana said:


> yes, but they surely likes berries )
> Hi to everyone! Filth, bravo!!  I see that Diana gave you all answers you need
> We all know that fruits and vegetables are full of vitamins and minerals (vitamins and minerals are important for normal growth and development, help cells and organs do their jobs...). Yes, they are also in the meat but not so much.
> And it is well known that: "Vegetables, fruits, whole grains, herbs, nuts and seeds contain an abundance of phenolic compounds, terpenoids, sulfur compounds, pigments, and other natural antioxidants that have been associated with protection from and/or treatment of conditions such as cardiovascular disease and cancer." except that we avoid to give nuts to our dogs.
> So, giving fruits and vegetables (in normal quantities and beside meat, bones and organs which are on first place) can help us in providing healthier old age to our beloved pets.
> 
> And it only takes maximum 15 minutes to prepare these meals ) And I would rather spend 15 minutes of my time in preparing something that my dogs loves instead of, for example, watching TV
> 
> Cheers )


See, whereas I believe that feeding my dogs meat, bones, and organs is what will provide them with the healthier old age. And my husband and I go out with our dogs every night during dinner to watch them eat. Even if we were to watch tv, tossing my dogs their meat IS giving them something they love. My dogs wouldn't touch half the stuff you guys feed your dogs. Well... maybe Buck would. He eats just about anything... Even paper (which we took care of. Haha). He lives to eat. Dude, on the other hand, wouldn't. He turns his nose up at just about everything but meat. That is where we disagree. 

Again, we will just have to agree to disagree. I don't think I am going to keep reading this thread. It's at 20 pages and I don't want to see it go to $hit. OP (and others who had pictures in the OP's original post) please post your recipes in the recipe section so we can all see them and drool over how pretty, colorful, and delicious they look to us humans even though they are in dog bowls! Heehee

And welcome to DFC.


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## luvMyBRT

I have to throw my 2 cents in.....

It's nothing scientific or anything like that.....

I have fed my dog both PMR and barf. When on PMR his poops where tiny, small and compact. He went usually once a day (keep in mind we are talking about a 100 pound dog). When I found out about his health condition I had to switch him to a barf style diet. On the barf diet his poops are huge and sometimes soft. Smelly and more frequent too. I wasn't feeding him more, just had to replace a lot of his meats and organs with a veggie puree and some other ingredients I would not choose to feed a HEALTHY carnivore.

Odd. It seems to me that on the PMR diet his body was able to utilize almost all that he ate. On barf he seems to actually utilize a lot less....a heck of a lot less. 

I am thankful for the barf style diet, because without that way of feeding Duncan would either be dead or eating kibble. It just stinks (literally...lol) that he can't be on PMR because those tiny, non-smelly poops were wonderful. 

So there's my experience......holy poop! :shocked:

:tongue:


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## cprcheetah

spook said:


> _
> Of course every dog is different and you and your vet know best if he or she has any food sensitivities, weight issues or other health concerns that should guide your dog's diet. It is always a good idea to check with your pet's doctor if you are planning on changing what your dog eats. Also keep in mind that it is best to introduce new foods to your dog slowly. You don't want your pooch to get gas, bloating, soft stools or other digestive problems.
> 
> _


Hmmm.....um sorry but about 99.9% of Vets know absolutely NOTHING about proper nutrition in dogs, my own father (who has been a vet for 40+ years tells me that I know more about it than he does, as well as the vet I currently work for. So I prefer NOT to take the advice of Veterinarians when it comes to feeding my dogs. Although I have been able to educate both of them and they are seeing the 'light' so to speak. I would say 80% of Vets think that Hill's Science Diet & the likes are the best thing since sliced bread for dogs which is NOT the case.



xellil said:


> Is it possible for automated programs to post here?


Wondering the same thing.......



Filth said:


> How do you explain this then?
> 
> 
> 
> Doesn't their "digestive system lacks the ability to digest vegetable matter" ??? Or Nature made a mistake at this one??? Looks like it is not that simple...
> Who told you that? What are those, your own postulates? If a wolf gets a semi-digested stomach contents of prey, why would dog have to be able to digest it raw?


Sara posted and EXCELLENT comparison of her OWN dog's poops on PMR and BARF, if I remember correct due to health reasons her dog cannot be on plain PMR.

Here is more information about veggies and dogs: Dogs Are Carnivores
"Dogs have the internal anatomy and physiology of a carnivore" 
(Feldhamer, G.A. 1999. Mammology: Adaptation, Diversity, and Ecology. McGraw-Hill. pg 260.). 
They have a highly elastic stomach designed to hold large quantities of meat, bone, organs, and hide. Their stomachs are simple, with an undeveloped caecum 
(Feldhamer, G.A. 1999. Mammology: Adaptation, Diversity, and Ecology. McGraw-Hill. pg 260.).
They have a relatively short foregut and a short, smooth, unsacculated colon. This means food passes through quickly. Vegetable and plant matter, however, needs time to sit and ferment. This equates to requiring longer, sacculated colons, larger and longer small intestines, and occasionally the presence of a caecum. Dogs have none of these, but have the shorter foregut and hindgut consistent with carnivorous animals. This explains why plant matter comes out the same way it came in; there was no time for it to be broken down and digested (among other things). Some educated People know this; this is why they tell you that vegetables and grains have to be pre-processed for your dog to get anything out of them. But even then, feeding vegetables and grains to a carnivorous animal is a highly questionable practice. 

"Dogs do not normally produce the necessary enzymes in their saliva (amylase, for example) to start the break-down process of carbohydrates and starches; amylase in saliva is something omnivorous and herbivorous animals possess, but not carnivorous animals. This places the burden entirely on the pancreas, forcing it to produce large amounts of amylase to deal with the starch, cellulose, and carbohydrates in plant matter. The carnivore's pancreas does not secrete cellulase to split the cellulose into glucose molecules, nor have dogs become efficient at digesting and assimilating and utilizing plant material as a source of high quality protein. Herbivores do those sorts of things" 
Canine and Feline Nutrition Case, Carey and Hirakawa Published by Mosby, 1995 

Thus, feeding dogs as though they were humans (omnivores) taxes the pancreas and places extra strain on it, as it must work harder for the dog to digest the starchy, carbohydrate-filled food instead of just producing the normal amounts of the enzymes needed to digest proteins and fats (which, when fed raw, begin to "self-digest" when the cells are crushed through crushing and tearing and their enzymes are released). 

Our dogs do not have the kinds of friendly bacteria that break down cellulose and starch for them. As a result, most of the nutrients contained in plant matter?even pre-processed plant matter?are unavailable to dogs. This is why dog food manufacturers have to add such high amounts of synthetic vitamins and minerals (the fact that cooking destroys all the vitamins and minerals and thus creates the need for supplementation aside) to their dog foods. If a dog can only digest 40-60% of its grain-based food, then it will only be receiving 40-60% (ideally!) of the vitamins and minerals it needs. To compensate for this, the manufacturer must add a higher concentration of vitamins and minerals than the dog actually needs. The result of feeding dogs a highly processed, grain-based food is a suppressed immune system and the under-production of the enzymes necessary to thoroughly digest raw meaty bones 
(Lonsdale, T. 2001. Raw Meaty Bones). 






MiniSchnauzerLove said:


> Source of my information is not Internet and Google, but college of veterinary medicine and physiology books. I try to present facts.


I have worked in the Veterinary Field (my father is a vet and has been for 40+ years) I wouldn't trust ANY Veterinary Nutrition Book (at least any that I have found) as they are all published by Hill's Science Diet and the likes and are biased and give their opinions based on what products they sell. I have done a TON of research on nutrition and I continue to do so, it is one thing that I am very interested in and very passionate about.



luvMyBRT said:


> I have to throw my 2 cents in.....
> 
> It's nothing scientific or anything like that.....
> 
> I have fed my dog both PMR and barf. When on PMR his poops where tiny, small and compact. He went usually once a day (keep in mind we are talking about a 100 pound dog). When I found out about his health condition I had to switch him to a barf style diet. On the barf diet his poops are huge and sometimes soft. Smelly and more frequent too. I wasn't feeding him more, just had to replace a lot of his meats and organs with a veggie puree and some other ingredients I would not choose to feed a HEALTHY carnivore.
> 
> Odd. It seems to me that on the PMR diet his body was able to utilize almost all that he ate. On barf he seems to actually utilize a lot less....a heck of a lot less.
> 
> I am thankful for the barf style diet, because without that way of feeding Duncan would either be dead or eating kibble. It just stinks (literally...lol) that he can't be on PMR because those tiny, non-smelly poops were wonderful.
> 
> So there's my experience......holy poop! :shocked:
> 
> :tongue:


Sara, THANK-YOU for posting this, I was wondering about them digesting the veggies. I know I have given Zoey spinach cooked before and guess what, she had chunks of green in her poops. Just my observation.


----------



## MiniSchnauzerLove

OMG, in Serbia we does't learn from books written by Hills, these books are written by distinguished professors, so I'm not getting the information from the Hill's manuals or unsigned articles from the internet. The book is about the physiology and biochemistry of vitamins, of all domestic animals, the differences and similarities between them. Unlike most of you, my dogs (Dachshund, who lived 13 years, a French Bulldog who has lived 12 years) and now Miniature Schnauzer Lilly, I never fed dry or canned food. My family keeps dogs from '84, all were raised and lived eating home made meals. I am a big opponent of dry food, because I know better than you what is in it. Any attempt to compare our way of feeding dogs with artificial dry food is an insult to me!
I don't want to convince you of something, I don't want to sell you anything, i only want to prove to you that fruits and vegetables have nutritional value in dog nutrition. 
As dogs have an enzyme carotinaza, also have an enzyme that converts Linoleic acid to Arachidonic acid and prostaglandines. Linoleic acid is found in many vegetable oils, sunflower, linseed oils....Think about this!
I believe that my way is best way, you believe that is your way the best way. We did't come to this forum to argue with you, but to discuss arguments. 

Bill, 
Animals can't move from carnivore mode to omnivore mode, just as impossible to become omnivorous herbivores. This requires an evolution, changes in the genes. Evidence for this is BSE (Bovine spongiform encephalopathy, known as mad-cow disease, i a fatal neurodegenerative disease in cattle) caused by feeding obligate herbivores with meat and bone meal. Dogs are't wolves, they originate from wolf, there are differences between them, and in their diet. Evolution is the one who changed them and allow them to use valuable nutritional compounds from some plants. South American jackal eats fruit from a tree in order to kill nematodes that parasitize in his kidneys. Also uses vitamins and minerals from the fruit. It digests and benefit from it.
Make no mistake, I feed my dogs live meat, bone, and organs, and I think that dogs are carnivore!!!


----------



## Filth

Yes, but not as strict carnivores as wolves are. Just because of this:



MiniSchnauzerLove said:


> . Evolution is the one who changed them and allow them to use valuable nutritional compounds from some plants. South American jackal eats fruit from a tree in order to kill nematodes that parasitize in his kidneys. Also uses vitamins and minerals from the fruit. It digests and benefit from it.


If dogs ordinate from wolf it doesn't mean that dogs diet TODAY should be the same as their ancestors diet was a million years ago. Evolution made a lot bigger changes than empowering dogs to digest and absorb plant matter. I don't get it why you find that so hard to believe in. That is simply why we are adjusting to what they need and provide them those stuff in their diet.


----------



## pogo

Wow this thread got long! 

Anyway those are some very pretty bowls of food, however from experience with my two they would eat the meat and look at me to say 'what the **** do you want me to do with the rest of it!' they point blank refuse to eat ANY veggies, not that i feed them veg just from past experience of dropping it on the floor etc and these two will eat ANYTHING that gets dropped but not veg :wink: I think that is enough evidence for me :becky:


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## JayJayisme

Filth said:


> If dogs ordinate from wolf it doesn't mean that dogs diet TODAY should be the same as their ancestors diet was a million years ago. Evolution made a lot bigger changes than empowering dogs to digest and absorb plant matter. I don't get it why you find that so hard to believe in. That is simply why we are adjusting to what they need and provide them those stuff in their diet.


What evolution? You people are nuts. Show me proof that the PHYSIOLOGY of dogs has evolved in the last, oh (I'll make it easy), 100,000 years. Selective breeding doesn't count. That isn't evolution. Even humans haven't evolved physiologically the same amount of time. You keep throwing arguments into the discussion that have no merit. Feed whatever the hell you want but don't try to convince us that the 30% of your meals that isn't from animal parts has some sort of evolutionary justification. It doesn't.


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## xellil

MiniSchnauzerLove said:


> Source of my information is not Internet and Google, but college of veterinary medicine and physiology books. I try to present facts.


Which books? I can get access to all of them. And the papers I cited are peer reviewed (oh and written by faculty in a COLLEGE OF VETERINARY MEDICINE).. I also have access through work to lots of databases that aren't available through a google search. I would be happy to read any of your scientific literature.

Just because it's NOT on google doesn't mean it's good.

and you do realize that books, just because they come from some college, should be scrutinized like everything else?


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## Azra maltese

cprcheetah said:


> Hmmm.....um sorry but about 99.9% of Vets know absolutely NOTHING about proper nutrition in dogs, my own father (who has been a vet for 40+ years tells me that I know more about it than he does, as well as the vet I currently work for. So I prefer NOT to take the advice of Veterinarians when it comes to feeding my dogs. Although I have been able to educate both of them and they are seeing the 'light' so to speak. I would say 80% of Vets think that Hill's Science Diet & the likes are the best thing since sliced bread for dogs which is NOT the case.
> 
> 
> Wondering the same thing.......
> 
> 
> 
> Sara posted and EXCELLENT comparison of her OWN dog's poops on PMR and BARF, if I remember correct due to health reasons her dog cannot be on plain PMR.
> 
> Here is more information about veggies and dogs: Dogs Are Carnivores
> "Dogs have the internal anatomy and physiology of a carnivore"
> (Feldhamer, G.A. 1999. Mammology: Adaptation, Diversity, and Ecology. McGraw-Hill. pg 260.).
> They have a highly elastic stomach designed to hold large quantities of meat, bone, organs, and hide. Their stomachs are simple, with an undeveloped caecum
> (Feldhamer, G.A. 1999. Mammology: Adaptation, Diversity, and Ecology. McGraw-Hill. pg 260.).
> They have a relatively short foregut and a short, smooth, unsacculated colon. This means food passes through quickly. Vegetable and plant matter, however, needs time to sit and ferment. This equates to requiring longer, sacculated colons, larger and longer small intestines, and occasionally the presence of a caecum. Dogs have none of these, but have the shorter foregut and hindgut consistent with carnivorous animals. This explains why plant matter comes out the same way it came in; there was no time for it to be broken down and digested (among other things). Some educated People know this; this is why they tell you that vegetables and grains have to be pre-processed for your dog to get anything out of them. But even then, feeding vegetables and grains to a carnivorous animal is a highly questionable practice.
> 
> "Dogs do not normally produce the necessary enzymes in their saliva (amylase, for example) to start the break-down process of carbohydrates and starches; amylase in saliva is something omnivorous and herbivorous animals possess, but not carnivorous animals. This places the burden entirely on the pancreas, forcing it to produce large amounts of amylase to deal with the starch, cellulose, and carbohydrates in plant matter. The carnivore's pancreas does not secrete cellulase to split the cellulose into glucose molecules, nor have dogs become efficient at digesting and assimilating and utilizing plant material as a source of high quality protein. Herbivores do those sorts of things"
> Canine and Feline Nutrition Case, Carey and Hirakawa Published by Mosby, 1995
> 
> Thus, feeding dogs as though they were humans (omnivores) taxes the pancreas and places extra strain on it, as it must work harder for the dog to digest the starchy, carbohydrate-filled food instead of just producing the normal amounts of the enzymes needed to digest proteins and fats (which, when fed raw, begin to "self-digest" when the cells are crushed through crushing and tearing and their enzymes are released).
> 
> Our dogs do not have the kinds of friendly bacteria that break down cellulose and starch for them. As a result, most of the nutrients contained in plant matter?even pre-processed plant matter?are unavailable to dogs. This is why dog food manufacturers have to add such high amounts of synthetic vitamins and minerals (the fact that cooking destroys all the vitamins and minerals and thus creates the need for supplementation aside) to their dog foods. If a dog can only digest 40-60% of its grain-based food, then it will only be receiving 40-60% (ideally!) of the vitamins and minerals it needs. To compensate for this, the manufacturer must add a higher concentration of vitamins and minerals than the dog actually needs. The result of feeding dogs a highly processed, grain-based food is a suppressed immune system and the under-production of the enzymes necessary to thoroughly digest raw meaty bones
> (Lonsdale, T. 2001. Raw Meaty Bones).
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I have worked in the Veterinary Field (my father is a vet and has been for 40+ years) I wouldn't trust ANY Veterinary Nutrition Book (at least any that I have found) as they are all published by Hill's Science Diet and the likes and are biased and give their opinions based on what products they sell. I have done a TON of research on nutrition and I continue to do so, it is one thing that I am very interested in and very passionate about.
> 
> 
> 
> Sara, THANK-YOU for posting this, I was wondering about them digesting the veggies. I know I have given Zoey spinach cooked before and guess what, she had chunks of green in her poops. Just my observation.


I will just partially agree with your remarks about Vet's: I would prefer to say that 99 % of them who are paid or have a percantage from re-selling dry food industry products are CHOOSING to know nothing about proper nutrition! 
This part is also partially correct:
"I know I have given Zoey spinach cooked before and guess what, she had chunks of green in her poops. Just my observation."
If you want to include anything new into your dog's meal, you are to do it slowly, small amount for a few days. If the poop shows green and is not solid, try one more time. In a few days, ussually everything will be OK. Although, some dogs will anyway remain intolerant to certain veggies, so, be carefull.
Nobody responded to my claim that the dogs CAN diggest most of vegetables (pre-processed by blending or chopping), which can easily be tested with boiled rice (white), which is the main ingredient for reconvalescentive diets? I don't need to give you reference about this, just try it.
My dog is on raw food (70% percent raw meet, rest veggies and fruit) for more then a year and I am very pleased with results. But the best effect on her hair was seen after I started (four month ago) to add one tea-spoon of smashed seed mixture (lax, pumpkin, sunflower, cinnemon). Hair is now shiny, silky and easy to brush! That is ultimate proof that she IS diggesting if not all then some of it! Maybe we should start posting the photos of our dog's poops instead of their meals to show you it IS diggested! 
So, we are on raw food, we think our way is the best for our pets and we enjoy preparing their food! We are not here to convert anybody, but to share expiriences!


----------



## JayJayisme

naturalfeddogs said:


> Hmmmm...these folks are starting to sound more like a commercial style of an organazation to me, rather than an individual who believes in feeding BARF their way. They have come in as a group as though their way is THE way. I'm just getting a strange feeling about them. I'm starting to not take them serious. JMO here.


Yeah, I am starting to agree. This group of 5 or 6 people suddenly appeared all at once and has basically been combative, evasive about answering specific questions, and full of conjecture with little supporting evidence. 

This reminds me of the days I was on the Atkins Diet and the vegan groups would launch similar attacks, pretending to also be on Atkins, but trying to dissuade people from eating meat by using flimsy "scientific" reasoning. Same M.O. here. 

It's like some coalition of BARFers has invaded a primarily PMR community with an agenda to discredit the premise of PMR and the reality that dogs are carnivores. With the heavy slant towards the whole omnivore/vegetable position, I wouldn't be surprised if this was the work of a larger (commercial) force using this group as pawns. First it's getting people to believe that dogs are omnivores. Next it's getting them to believe something else. This is just an interim step towards a larger goal, one this group may not even have knowledge of. 

I'm not much of a "conspiracy theory" kinda' guy but I smell a rat. The conversations just go around in circles as though they are just trying to wear everyone down. That is a sign that this group came here with an agenda and the pictures of pretty bowls of food were the bait. Waste of time.


----------



## xellil

JayJayisme said:


> This reminds me of the days I was on the Atkins Diet and the vegan groups would launch similar attacks, pretending to also be on Atkins, but trying to dissuade people from eating meat by using flimsy "scientific" reasoning. Same M.O. here.


I started Atkins back in 1998, when he was considered a laughingstock. I agree with you.

Actually, I'm not THAT much of a diehard no-veggies person - I just started in April. If I could find some reason to feed veggies, I would be happy to. There's been no solid proof, as far as I can see, that veggies add a darn thing.


----------



## Grivana

xellil said:


> I really believe alot is genetics


yes, genetic is probably one of important factor. But I think that dogs diet and way of living is much more important for dog's long healthy life (but that's another subject and let's not start with discussion about that). All I wanted to say in that post is that Billy's statement about veggies (of course not all kinds) doing harm to the dogs in the future life, is incorrect. Now few of you will say that it's not doing good either and I'll say this and that, then you will answer... So, I'm done with talking on that subject. 



RawFedDogs said:


> Congratulations on such a long lived dog. :smile:


Thank you.



I have to admit that all this begins to annoy me a bit.
Filth, Wiliana, Diana, MiniSchnauzerLove and Azra gave you great argument why is diet that we prefer better. They explain everything on best possible way! 
And you don't agree, you have strong beliefs that RFD is the only way... We don't agree with your way, and never will. Your side and our side disagree and that's the fact that won't change for 30 new pages of this thread.



JayJayisme said:


> You people are nuts.


if we are nuts, then what the heck are you? :biggrin:


----------



## xellil

Grivana said:


> I have to admit that all this begins to annoy me a bit.
> Filth, Wiliana, Diana, MiniSchnauzerLove and Azra gave you great argument why is diet that we prefer better. They explain everything on best possible way!
> And you don't agree, you have strong beliefs that RFD is the only way... We don't agree with your way, and never will. Your side and our side disagree and that's the fact that won't change for 30 new pages of this thread.


Just alot of stamina - you came right after another 27-28 page thread on the same thing kind of petered out, finally.

I do agree with what DaneMama said - there needs to be another forum for raw (with veggies) feeders. You have alot to share with people who want to go down that road.


----------



## xellil

Azra maltese said:


> Nobody responded to my claim that the dogs CAN diggest most of vegetables (pre-processed by blending or chopping), which can easily be tested with boiled rice (white), which is the main ingredient for reconvalescentive diets? I don't need to give you reference about this, just try it.


I don't think anyone argues with that - I think the argument is that it's unnecessary because they don't need what's in there or get the same thing from raw meat.

But, I also don't think you can tell what is being absorbed by looking at poop. I used to give my dogs grean beans whole. Of course they weren't digesting them or using them in any way, but nothing green ever came out in their poop.


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## Azra maltese

JayJayisme said:


> Yeah, I am starting to agree. This group of 5 or 6 people suddenly appeared all at once and has basically been combative, evasive about answering specific questions, and full of conjecture with little supporting evidence.
> 
> This reminds me of the days I was on the Atkins Diet and the vegan groups would launch similar attacks, pretending to also be on Atkins, but trying to dissuade people from eating meat by using flimsy "scientific" reasoning. Same M.O. here.
> 
> It's like some coalition of BARFers has invaded a primarily PMR community with an agenda to discredit the premise of PMR and the reality that dogs are carnivores. With the heavy slant towards the whole omnivore/vegetable position, I wouldn't be surprised if this was the work of a larger (commercial) force using this group as pawns. First it's getting people to believe that dogs are omnivores. Next it's getting them to believe something else. This is just an interim step towards a larger goal, one this group may not even have knowledge of.
> 
> I'm not much of a "conspiracy theory" kinda' guy but I smell a rat. The conversations just go around in circles as though they are just trying to wear everyone down. That is a sign that this group came here with an agenda and the pictures of pretty bowls of food were the bait. Waste of time.


Finnaly, how much time did you need to come up with so brilliant conclussion???
I am sure that only the person with so brilliant mind like yours can help us to commercialize our way of feeding!!!!!
And at the end, I was just trying to find the words to define your way of discussing here, thanks for the assistance, your words suits it the best:
"combative, evasive about answering specific questions, and full of conjecture with little supporting evidence"


----------



## Azra maltese

xellil said:


> I don't think anyone argues with that - I think the argument is that it's unnecessary because they don't need what's in there or get the same thing from raw meat.
> 
> But, I also don't think you can tell what is being absorbed by looking at poop. I used to give my dogs grean beans whole. Of course they weren't digesting them or using them in any way, but nothing green ever came out in their poop.


Talking about green was refered to spinach only!


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## xellil

Then how would you know whether a dog is absorbing whatever is in rice?


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## MiniSchnauzerLove

JayJayisme said:


> What evolution? You people are nuts. Show me proof that the PHYSIOLOGY of dogs has evolved in the last, oh (I'll make it easy), 100,000 years. Selective breeding doesn't count. That isn't evolution. Even humans haven't evolved physiologically the same amount of time. You keep throwing arguments into the discussion that have no merit. Feed whatever the hell you want but don't try to convince us that the 30% of your meals that isn't from animal parts has some sort of evolutionary justification. It doesn't.


First, before you start to insult people, learn the difference between anatomy, physiology and biochemistry!


Because of these people who do not know how to communicate with dignity, I don't want to be part of this forum anymore.
So, I ask moderators to delete my account and posts. Please!

I wish you good luck in life and healty dogs!


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## wiliana

It would be nice for some of you not to look at us thrue conspiracy theories  ...comynication would have more sense :wink:

I didn't have time to translate this text from Croatian into English (althought originaly text is in Eng...it is from a few books- authors: Steven R. Lindsay, James Serpell), so I put it in online translator and edit worst translated parts...I think it is correct enough for understand

_
Theories of origin of dogs
Some believe that the most likely ancestor of today's dog Indian wolf (Canis lupus pallipes), which concluded with regard to the fact that it was smaller and less dangerous for what was then a man. Others believe that the ancestor of today's dog Chinese wolf (Canis lupus Chinese) with respect to body size and morphological structure of the lower jaw. Nevertheless, others are identified Westasian (Canis lupus arabs) and the Eurasian wolf (Canis lupus) as the ancestors of most European breeds. Based on the "genome Arctic and European breeds spitz-type" Canis lupus erythematosus has the greatest impact. (Lindsay, 2000).
According to Clutton-Brock, "the similarity in size and osteological features in most fossil remains of domestic dogs found at various prehistoric sites around the world, suggest that the smaller population of dogs split off from the parent group in the early prehistoric period. He further says: "Wolves are likely to be domesticated and lived in the vicinity of human settlements in many parts of the world, and any litter which could establish a general population of domestic dogs, which has gradually become widespread." (Serpell, Chapter 2, 1995).

Clutton-Brock explains the process of domestication as a "two intertwined processes." The first biological process resembles the natural evolution in which "animal-parents become reproductively isolated from wild populations and establish a small core group ... that will be initially based on mating with relatives and will undergo genetic drift." The core group will grow and genetically will be modified by natural selection due to environmental changes and human impact. According to Clutton-Brock, "these gentle wolves will become less and less similar to their ancestors, they will inherently mutable characteristics such as coat color, wearing the ears or tail, the overall size and proportions of the limbs to change the combination of natural and artificial selection." (Serpell, Chapter 2 , 1995).

To survive a wild animal needs a "high degree of perception and fast reactions to stress," according to Clutton-Brock characteristics needed domestic animals the contrary are "... tendency for tameness, less fear and lack of tolerance to stress." There have been biological and structural changes, such as "hormonal changes, reduction in brain size, poorer vision and hearing, and retention juvenalnih characteristics and behavior in adult animals." (Serpell, Chapter 2, 1995).

Characteristics of behavior due to domestication
We know that after the Ice Age Mesolithic society "... began to settle permanently." This period created a "space" for gentle wolves for further domestication. Guided by a new, easily accessible food sites, these more pleasant wolves were probably less "genetically predisposed" for escape what they have gained "an advantage in the selection versus wild"
(Coppinger, 2001).

Lindsay describes the early relationship of people and tame wolves as a "communion" between the two species. He says: "wolf pack territories were probably formed in the vicinity of human settlements that are naturally protected from other, less friendly mood of the pack or group of people. This resulted in "ecological niche" that is further facilitated "proto-dogs" to suffer "a new morphological and genetic changes that have gradually led to the development of the domestic dog." (Lindsay, 2000).

Differences in the behavior of the wolf and dog
Dogs are the result of continuous domestication were subjected to considerable changes in behavior and thus turned away from her, now, cousin of the wolf. The domestic dog is transformed into an animal a smoother, softer and loyal to comparing with wolf. According to Lindsay, "... dogs have lost their wolfish instinct of carnivores and predator behavior is characteristic of wild canids." Although dogs prefer meat, today, their diet is varied, which can not be said for their "ancient ancestors." (Lindsay, 2000).

Another significant difference is that dogs are "physically and sexually mature much earlier than wolves ... dogs become sexually mature at the age of 7-10 months", while "Wolves become sexually wants at the age of approximately 22 months." In addition, "... dogs are regularly mate with more patner, bitches in heat twice a year, a male dog fertile throughout the year." Wolves are on the other hand, the "selective and have a parnera whole life", a female is in heat once a year and testes of males outside the breeding season atrophy and the male fertile only once a year. "(Lindsay, 2000).

The dog continued evolution of the proto-dog, he was eventually trained to assemble and defend livestock and hunting. Not so long ago, the process of deliberate breeding by selecting certain innate traits now gives us over 400 different breeds of dogs. Such diversity is not known in any other species, and therefore the dog is unique. Today, dogs used for various purposes, and we humans are constantly found new ways in which they can exploit.

According to Lindsay, a significant impact domestication is "to reduce the predator instinct." "Wolves have a group of inherited patterns of behavior that are easily triggered by an adequate stimulus ... when they see prey, wolves react to find the typical kind, presenting the corresponding sequences of behavior." This series includes the bending behavior, stalking, tearing away, zalijetanje, attacking, biting and shaking. Faced the same stimulus (prey), the dogs are usually caused by play or target prey "(Lindsay, 2000)._

I have much more texts about this subject, in Croatian od Serbian, but this is the base point.

*luvMyBRT*, thank you for asking abuot my dog. He is Standard Schnauzer, I made album on my proifile, I hope it will be visible soon.
I have one question for you. People here saying that vegetable is not necesery for dogs, they are not using anything from it and someones say it could be bad for dogs.
Now Im not getting the point why are you feeding Barf diet your dog that has some health issues? I dont know what problems your dog have and wich kind of grosseries you are giving him in Barf, but how that helps him if dogs don't digest them or if that is bad for them?
Im also wondering what means that, if dog is healthy- he can eat only pray raw food. If only pray raw is suitable for them, and everything else is just a filler, how all dogs (healthy or not) are not living great with pray model feeding?
When we were on raw meat without anything else (or with content of rumen that he was eating often) poop was a little bit smaller than now, but consistence was the same, and difference in ammount was about 10% . In both case that is a really small poop.


----------



## MiniSchnauzerLove

JayJayisme said:


> Yeah, I am starting to agree. This group of 5 or 6 people suddenly appeared all at once and has basically been combative, evasive about answering specific questions, and full of conjecture with little supporting evidence.
> 
> This reminds me of the days I was on the Atkins Diet and the vegan groups would launch similar attacks, pretending to also be on Atkins, but trying to dissuade people from eating meat by using flimsy "scientific" reasoning. Same M.O. here.
> 
> It's like some coalition of BARFers has invaded a primarily PMR community with an agenda to discredit the premise of PMR and the reality that dogs are carnivores. With the heavy slant towards the whole omnivore/vegetable position, I wouldn't be surprised if this was the work of a larger (commercial) force using this group as pawns. First it's getting people to believe that dogs are omnivores. Next it's getting them to believe something else. This is just an interim step towards a larger goal, one this group may not even have knowledge of.
> 
> I'm not much of a "conspiracy theory" kinda' guy but I smell a rat. The conversations just go around in circles as though they are just trying to wear everyone down. That is a sign that this group came here with an agenda and the pictures of pretty bowls of food were the bait. Waste of time.


Yes, you are totally right about us! I'll tell you a secret, but psssssssst!
WE ARE FROM ANOTHER PLANET AND WE WANT TO CAPTURE YOU AND YOUR DOGS TO FEED THEM TERRIFYING ALIEN VEGETABLES, buuuhahahahahahaha!!!!!


----------



## xellil

Thanks for taking the time to do that. I think the argument of the prey model raw feeder is that the jaws, teeth, and digestive system are the same. That a dachshund eats and digests food the same as a wolf.

Some breeds of dogs can't process taurine, I think. Or something like that - she will explain it better. In those cases, it DOES seem to me the digestive system is not the same as a wolf, and so the dog can't eat a prey model of feeding.


----------



## JayJayisme

MiniSchnauzerLove said:


> First, before you start to insult people, learn the difference between anatomy, physiology and biochemistry!


You see? You just proved my point. More going around in circles ignoring the questions. Nothing posted to support your position. 

All you can do is attack me by claiming I don't know the difference between anatomy, physiology and biochemistry. I still don't think a single one of you has read through the message archives here. Know why? Because you don't care because doing so will do nothing to further your agenda.

You and your "gang" have been incredibly disruptive to this otherwise sane forum. And I believe disruption was your goal, plain and simple, and you just supported my theory. Good riddance.


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## wiliana

I understand the argument of the prey model, but I also think that during all this time dogs changed a little bit. I dont need to think, that is realy the fact. 

For example, first 26 years of my life I lived in different region with different clima and different food (heavier) than Im eating last 5 years here, on Mediterranean. Before, I could eat heavy and spicy food, and when I eated fish, I was hungry after 2 hours. After 5 years near the sea, eating easy mediterranean food, I can not eat so heavy and spicy, or I can, but I dont fell so good and I don't digest it as well as before. Opposite would be my friend that was born here and went to live in mountain part of state... He grew on fish, but now, after few years living in different clima, he used on another food, and he is hungry if he eats fish or some easy food. Every organism is capable to ajust it's needs to some conditions... especially when we have thousands years for that


----------



## xellil

wiliana said:


> I understand the argument of the prey model, but I also think that during all this time dogs changed a little bit. I dont need to think, that is realy the fact.
> 
> For example, first 26 years of my life I lived in different region with different clima and different food (heavier) than Im eating last 5 years here, on Mediterranean. Before, I could eat heavy and spicy food, and when I eated fish, I was hungry after 2 hours. After 5 years near the sea, eating easy mediterranean food, I can not eat so heavy and spicy, or I can, but I dont fell so good and I don't digest it as well as before. Opposite would be my friend that was born here and went to live in mountain part of state... He grew on fish, but now, after few years living in different clima, he used on another food, and he is hungry if he eats fish or some easy food. Every organism is capable to ajust it's needs to some conditions... especially when we have thousands years for that


So do you think you have a different digestive system than your friend, and it changes with the region you live in? Or that you are producing different enzymes or other things to digest food and that your actual physical makeup has changed? That's just not backed up by science.

If I eat alot of sugar and carbs, I grow to really crave it. It's kinda of like an addition. But it's not good for me, nor does it make my digestive system any different than yours. 

Maybe I love watermelon (and I do) and if I eat alot of it it won't hurt me but it doesn't give me any nutritional value. 

Maybe dogs love carrots, and they grow to really like and crave them. That doesn't mean they need them.


----------



## JayJayisme

wiliana said:


> I understand the argument of the prey model, but I also think that during all this time dogs changed a little bit. I dont need to think, that is realy the fact.
> 
> For example, first 26 years of my life I lived in different region with different clima and different food (heavier) than Im eating last 5 years here, on Mediterranean. Before, I could eat heavy and spicy food, and when I eated fish, I was hungry after 2 hours. After 5 years near the sea, eating easy mediterranean food, I can not eat so heavy and spicy, or I can, but I dont fell so good and I don't digest it as well as before. Opposite would be my friend that was born here and went to live in mountain part of state... He grew on fish, but now, after few years living in different clima, he used on another food, and he is hungry if he eats fish or some easy food. Every organism is capable to ajust it's needs to some conditions... especially when we have thousands years for that


OMG...this is precious. So you "evolved" in 5 years time?

It's interesting to see what falls out of the tree when you really start shaking it.


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## wiliana

The point is that for all those years dogs were domesticated by humans, lived with people and ate with them, their bodies learned to use some things that the wolf is not used. Wolf does not use them because he lives in such an environment where he can't find it, and yes, he is living without all those "dog" stuffs. Way of his life is totally different. Anatomy of dogs and wolves is the same. Japanese and Mexicans have the same anatomy, but their lifestyle and habits are so different that their food is not similar at all. That is just one more example. I really tried to make as much simple as the point is very easy to understand, for those who want to understand.
And offcourse that dogs can live more or less healthy only with meet (depends on many things) , but yes, they are also capable to digest and use different sorts of fibres if they are prepared and chosed well. Why is that so hard to understand :shocked:


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## Azra maltese

xellil said:


> Then how would you know whether a dog is absorbing whatever is in rice?


Is that a real question?????


----------



## cprcheetah

MiniSchnauzerLove said:


> OMG, in Serbia we does't learn from books written by Hills, these books are written by distinguished professors, so I'm not getting the information from the Hill's manuals or unsigned articles from the internet. The book is about the physiology and biochemistry of vitamins, of all domestic animals, the differences and similarities between them. Unlike most of you, my dogs (Dachshund, who lived 13 years, a French Bulldog who has lived 12 years) and now Miniature Schnauzer Lilly, I never fed dry or canned food. My family keeps dogs from '84, all were raised and lived eating home made meals. I am a big opponent of dry food, because I know better than you what is in it. Any attempt to compare our way of feeding dogs with artificial dry food is an insult to me!
> I don't want to convince you of something, I don't want to sell you anything, i only want to prove to you that fruits and vegetables have nutritional value in dog nutrition.
> As dogs have an enzyme carotinaza, also have an enzyme that converts Linoleic acid to Arachidonic acid and prostaglandines. Linoleic acid is found in many vegetable oils, sunflower, linseed oils....Think about this!
> I believe that my way is best way, you believe that is your way the best way. We did't come to this forum to argue with you, but to discuss arguments.
> 
> Bill,
> Animals can't move from carnivore mode to omnivore mode, just as impossible to become omnivorous herbivores. This requires an evolution, changes in the genes. Evidence for this is BSE (Bovine spongiform encephalopathy, known as mad-cow disease, i a fatal neurodegenerative disease in cattle) caused by feeding obligate herbivores with meat and bone meal. Dogs are't wolves, they originate from wolf, there are differences between them, and in their diet. Evolution is the one who changed them and allow them to use valuable nutritional compounds from some plants. South American jackal eats fruit from a tree in order to kill nematodes that parasitize in his kidneys. Also uses vitamins and minerals from the fruit. It digests and benefit from it.
> Make no mistake, I feed my dogs live meat, bone, and organs, and I think that dogs are carnivore!!!


I am VERY interested to know the title/publisher/authors of these nutrition books, as I have been looking far and wide and talked with many publishers looking for books on proper nutrition. How is that they have the books in Serbia but not in the United States and no search has ever found them? Just wondering.



Filth said:


> Yes, but not as strict carnivores as wolves are. Just because of this:
> 
> 
> 
> If dogs ordinate from wolf it doesn't mean that dogs diet TODAY should be the same as their ancestors diet was a million years ago. Evolution made a lot bigger changes than empowering dogs to digest and absorb plant matter. I don't get it why you find that so hard to believe in. That is simply why we are adjusting to what they need and provide them those stuff in their diet.


Um where is the scientific proof of this? According to these teeth, Prehistoric Dog Found with Mammoth Bone in Mouth : Discovery News
which look about the same as my dogs teeth do, so where is the evolution? If they were evolved to eat plant matter guess what? Their teeth would be different. 



Azra maltese said:


> I will just partially agree with your remarks about Vet's: I would prefer to say that 99 % of them who are paid or have a percantage from re-selling dry food industry products are CHOOSING to know nothing about proper nutrition!
> This part is also partially correct:
> "I know I have given Zoey spinach cooked before and guess what, she had chunks of green in her poops. Just my observation."
> If you want to include anything new into your dog's meal, you are to do it slowly, small amount for a few days. If the poop shows green and is not solid, try one more time. In a few days, ussually everything will be OK. Although, some dogs will anyway remain intolerant to certain veggies, so, be carefull.
> Nobody responded to my claim that the dogs CAN diggest most of vegetables (pre-processed by blending or chopping), which can easily be tested with boiled rice (white), which is the main ingredient for reconvalescentive diets? I don't need to give you reference about this, just try it.
> My dog is on raw food (70% percent raw meet, rest veggies and fruit) for more then a year and I am very pleased with results. But the best effect on her hair was seen after I started (four month ago) to add one tea-spoon of smashed seed mixture (lax, pumpkin, sunflower, cinnemon). Hair is now shiny, silky and easy to brush! That is ultimate proof that she IS diggesting if not all then some of it! Maybe we should start posting the photos of our dog's poops instead of their meals to show you it IS diggested!
> So, we are on raw food, we think our way is the best for our pets and we enjoy preparing their food! We are not here to convert anybody, but to share expiriences!


Actually I FED Zoey homecooked for several months a few years ago consisting of rice, veggies and meat and yep she always had little chunks of green, orange, red or whatever else fun colors I fed in her poops. In my opinion if you have to grind, puree etc in order for the dog to get nutritional value out of it, it is NOT needed in their diet. I have no problems with how you feed, I think it is worlds above even the best of the kibbles, and I do commend you guys for that, just problems with the fact that you are trying to say that dogs have evolved to eat vegetables etc. That is incorrect information. If dogs had evolved to eat veggies etc their teeth would have changed over the years to have the 'grinding' teeth that herbivores/omnivores have and they do not so that tells me they are still Carnivores. B.A.R.F. or S.A.R.F. If you were to compare the skull, teeth, saliva, stomach acid, stomachs, intestines, liver, etc. side by side; a wolf to your little Boston Terrier or Toy Poodle you would not be able to tell which was which except by the relative size. Our domestic dogs have not evolved to eat grains and vegetables anymore then the domestic horse has evolved to eat meat!


----------



## PDXdogmom

JayJayisme said:


> Yeah, I am starting to agree. This group of 5 or 6 people suddenly appeared all at once and has basically been combative, evasive about answering specific questions, and full of conjecture with little supporting evidence.
> 
> This reminds me of the days I was on the Atkins Diet and the vegan groups would launch similar attacks, pretending to also be on Atkins, but trying to dissuade people from eating meat by using flimsy "scientific" reasoning. Same M.O. here.
> 
> It's like some coalition of BARFers has invaded a primarily PMR community with an agenda to discredit the premise of PMR and the reality that dogs are carnivores. With the heavy slant towards the whole omnivore/vegetable position, I wouldn't be surprised if this was the work of a larger (commercial) force using this group as pawns. First it's getting people to believe that dogs are omnivores. Next it's getting them to believe something else. This is just an interim step towards a larger goal, one this group may not even have knowledge of.
> 
> I'm not much of a "conspiracy theory" kinda' guy but I smell a rat. The conversations just go around in circles as though they are just trying to wear everyone down. That is a sign that this group came here with an agenda and the pictures of pretty bowls of food were the bait. Waste of time.


Or, perhaps you're feeling a bit paranoid about some people who strongly believe something that you don't believe.


----------



## Azra maltese

PDXdogmom said:


> Or, perhaps you're feeling a bit paranoid about some people who strongly believe something that you don't believe.


I would really like to see his level of tolerance toward people of different religions, nations, skin color, etc.:suspicious:


----------



## xellil

wiliana said:


> The point is that for all those years dogs were domesticated by humans, lived with people and ate with them, their bodies learned to use some things that the wolf is not used. Wolf does not use them because he lives in such an environment where he can't find it, and yes, he is living without all those "dog" stuffs. Way of his life is totally different. Anatomy of dogs and wolves is the same. Japanese and Mexicans have the same anatomy, but their lifestyle and habits are so different that their food is not similar at all. That is just one more example. I really tried to make as much simple as the point is very easy to understand, for those who want to understand.
> And offcourse that dogs can live more or less healthy only with meet (depends on many things) , but yes, they are also capable to digest and use different sorts of fibres if they are prepared and chosed well. Why is that so hard to understand :shocked:


I think it's been stated at least 20 times - no one is arguing with that. Why is that so hard to understand?

I guess I should clarify by saying I bet wolves could eat green beans too, if they were pureed. Just like dogs.


----------



## JayJayisme

PDXdogmom said:


> Or, perhaps you're feeling a bit paranoid about some people who strongly believe something that you don't believe.


Heh, heh, heh...that's funny. 

I don't get paranoid. I get irritated. And yes, this group irritates me. It's like Claybuster times 5. It's not _what_ they believe, it's the _way_ they blew in here and tried to push their beliefs without being able to really answer many of the very legitimate questions posed by myself and others and without familiarizing themselves with the "culture" of this forum first. It's happened here and on the kibble forum before, and it will likely happen again. I've seen it before in other unrelated forums too. I've been using the 'Net for a long time now. It's not what you think and it has nothing to do with paranoia. It's about preserving the integrity of this forum.


----------



## Azra maltese

cprcheetah said:


> I am VERY interested to know the title/publisher/authors of these nutrition books, as I have been looking far and wide and talked with many publishers looking for books on proper nutrition. How is that they have the books in Serbia but not in the United States and no search has ever found them? Just wondering.
> 
> 
> 
> Um where is the scientific proof of this? According to these teeth, Prehistoric Dog Found with Mammoth Bone in Mouth : Discovery News
> which look about the same as my dogs teeth do, so where is the evolution? If they were evolved to eat plant matter guess what? Their teeth would be different.
> 
> 
> 
> Actually I FED Zoey homecooked for several months a few years ago consisting of rice, veggies and meat and yep she always had little chunks of green, orange, red or whatever else fun colors I fed in her poops. In my opinion if you have to grind, puree etc in order for the dog to get nutritional value out of it, it is NOT needed in their diet. I have no problems with how you feed, I think it is worlds above even the best of the kibbles, and I do commend you guys for that, just problems with the fact that you are trying to say that dogs have evolved to eat vegetables etc. That is incorrect information. If dogs had evolved to eat veggies etc their teeth would have changed over the years to have the 'grinding' teeth that herbivores/omnivores have and they do not so that tells me they are still Carnivores. B.A.R.F. or S.A.R.F. If you were to compare the skull, teeth, saliva, stomach acid, stomachs, intestines, liver, etc. side by side; a wolf to your little Boston Terrier or Toy Poodle you would not be able to tell which was which except by the relative size. Our domestic dogs have not evolved to eat grains and vegetables anymore then the domestic horse has evolved to eat meat!


Again, problem with my english????
I said that I am adding PRE-PROCESSED (mostly blanded or chopped) vegetables and fruits, and that my dog is diggesting it!
And I am blending or chopping it because of anatomy of her teeth! Also, I am claiming that her poop is solid and compact WITHOUT green or orange spots! Feel free to ask me for photos. Change in quality of her hair is telling me that she IS diggesting at least some of it!


----------



## xellil

Azra maltese said:


> I would really like to see his level of tolerance toward people of different religions, nations, skin color, etc.:suspicious:


That is totally uncalled for. To suggest that someone is a bigot and racist because they challenge you on the way you feed your dogs is beyond ridiculous.


----------



## xellil

Azra maltese said:


> Again, problem with my english????
> I said that I am adding PRE-PROCESSED (mostly blanded or chopped) vegetables and fruits, and that my dog is diggesting it!


And we are saying (again) maybe they can process it - but they don't NEED it. 

Again, I repeat what i have said, what others have said, over and over again.


----------



## JayJayisme

Azra maltese said:


> I would really like to see his level of tolerance toward people of different religions, nations, skin color, etc.:suspicious:


Wow, now you are WAY over the line. You don't know a damned thing about me, my ethnicity, my religion, my upbringing, nothing. Until you do, and have some basis for this kind of comment, which you never will, back off.

Typical of someone who no longer has a legitimate argument. Whip out the race card. Classic.


----------



## cprcheetah

Azra maltese said:


> Again, problem with my english????
> I said that I am adding PRE-PROCESSED (mostly blanded or chopped) vegetables and fruits, and that my dog is diggesting it!
> And I am blending or chopping it because of anatomy of her teeth! Also, I am claiming that her poop is solid and compact WITHOUT green or orange spots! Feel free to ask me for photos. Change in quality of her hair is telling me that she IS diggesting at least some of it!


Again I say, if it has to be 'pre-processed' why feed it? Why do you think that they have evolved to eat 'pre-processed' veggies? That in itself tells me that unless it's pre-processed they can't utilize it. I actually blended/chopped etc Zoeys veggies and still saw pieces of it in her poop. I know what I saw, and so does my husband when I fed homecooked. So yep they may be digesting SOME of it, but you also are having to 'pre-process' it and make it so they can digest it. Seems like just a lot of extra work to me.


----------



## Azra maltese

JayJayisme said:


> Wow, now you are WAY over the line. You don't know a damned thing about me, my ethnicity, my religion, my upbringing, nothing. Until you do, and have some basis for this kind of comment, which you never will, back off.
> 
> Typical of someone who no longer has a legitimate argument. Whip out the race card. Classic.


I do not need or want to know anything about you, including ethnicity, religion, nationality,etc. It is more than enogh to see your level of tolerance to other people beleifes! That says more than enough about you! 
And if you are in charge to "keep the integrity of this forum" on your way, I feel sorry for it.


----------



## JayJayisme

Y'all see how the same platitudes keep getting recycled over and over again? They are trying to wear you down. This thread is as good as dead.


----------



## xellil

i really wish someone would shut this thread down. It has thoroughly degenerated into calling people bigots and racists, and that's way too far gone to have a real conversation.

I am going to do my part by leaving.


----------



## Azra maltese

cprcheetah said:


> Again I say, if it has to be 'pre-processed' why feed it? Why do you think that they have evolved to eat 'pre-processed' veggies? That in itself tells me that unless it's pre-processed they can't utilize it. I actually blended/chopped etc Zoeys veggies and still saw pieces of it in her poop. I know what I saw, and so does my husband when I fed homecooked. So yep they may be digesting SOME of it, but you also are having to 'pre-process' it and make it so they can digest it. Seems like just a lot of extra work to me.


I don't mind extra work for her and I SEE the results. That SOME she is diggesting, is very,very visible on the quality of her hair. Don't take me wrong, I do not have any intention to convert you to this way of feeding, I am just trying to hear something new. For example, I did not know before that there is no risk of pseudorabbie virus in US, so you can feed raw pork freely! I envy you for that.


----------



## JayJayisme

Azra maltese said:


> It is more than enogh to see your level of tolerance to other people beleifes! That says more than enough about you!


I have an incredible level of tolerance for people and ideas that make sense, or when a compelling argument is made. Guess what? All raw feeders do. We have to because raw feeding alone is unconventional and controversial. You just haven't made a case for your beliefs. We are still waiting. It has nothing to do with intolerance, but that is a convenient term to use since it carries such a taboo connotation in today's society. 

Your philosophy on canine feeding is pure conjecture, which isn't in itself a bad thing. So is PMR. We have supported our conjecture with evolutionary science references over and over again in this thread. I mean, it's been beaten to death. You haven't. It's that simple. Attacking me personally isn't going to help your cause, whatever it is.


----------



## Azra maltese

xellil said:


> i really wish someone would shut this thread down. It has thoroughly degenerated into calling people bigots and racists, and that's way too far gone to have a real conversation.
> 
> I am going to do my part by leaving.


Do not try that! It is low and dirty! I just said:
"I would really like to see his level of tolerance toward people of different religions, nations, skin color, etc"
If YOU think that he is what YOU said that he is called, that's between two of you!


----------



## magicre

wiliana said:


> I understand the argument of the prey model, but I also think that during all this time dogs changed a little bit. I dont need to think, that is realy the fact.
> 
> For example, first 26 years of my life I lived in different region with different clima and different food (heavier) than Im eating last 5 years here, on Mediterranean. Before, I could eat heavy and spicy food, and when I eated fish, I was hungry after 2 hours. After 5 years near the sea, eating easy mediterranean food, I can not eat so heavy and spicy, or I can, but I dont fell so good and I don't digest it as well as before. Opposite would be my friend that was born here and went to live in mountain part of state... He grew on fish, but now, after few years living in different clima, he used on another food, and he is hungry if he eats fish or some easy food. Every organism is capable to ajust it's needs to some conditions... especially when we have thousands years for that


what i get from what you're saying is that you adapted to your environment, as did your eating habits....

and you're saying, i believe, this is the same for dogs who are domesticated. 

they adapt to their environment. but dogs don't feed themselves. we feed them. isn't that the difference?

i'm not arguing with you. 

when did dogs adapt to veggies, fruits and grains and seeds? as they now live in my home and i feed them. so the choice of what to feed them is up to me. 

we have dogs who live very long lives on kibble, on home cooking, on your style of feeding, on my style of feeding and on whole prey eating.

that tells me we are dealing mainly with genetics and availability of food more so than genetics. if a dog can survive on kibble...which in my opinion is the worst of the worst food to give a dog or cat.....and live to be very very old....

then feeding the best of the best may give them a quality of life but not necessarily a longer life. except you're saying that the best is your way and i'm saying i think the best is my way. 

unless you're saying that dogs in serbia and the balkans routinely live long long lives? are you saying that?

again, no disrespect intended. i am very curious.

and i give my dogs emu oil which is animal based and their coats never looked better. coconut and olive oil also worked and they are plant based, but emu oil worked even better.


----------



## Azra maltese

JayJayisme said:


> I have an incredible level of tolerance for people and ideas that make sense, or when a compelling argument is made. Guess what? All raw feeders do. We have to because raw feeding alone is unconventional and controversial. You just haven't made a case for your beliefs. We are still waiting. It has nothing to do with intolerance, but that is a convenient term to use since it carries such a taboo connotation in today's society.
> 
> Your philosophy on canine feeding is pure conjecture, which isn't in itself a bad thing. So is PMR. We have supported our conjecture with evolutionary science references over and over again in this thread. I mean, it's been beaten to death. You haven't. It's that simple. Attacking me personally isn't going to help your cause, whatever it is.


That is your problem. You are defending your way of feeding on the way religious extremists are defending their religion (doesn't matter which). But, I am not here to attack your "religion", I do not really care, I am here to learn and for fun!!!
In fact, in our Balkan Kinology Forum, we are playing: we are posting our menu's daily, then voting for a daily winner, then weekly, monthly, annual! We enjoy spending quality time with our pets even if it includes spending extra time to prepare dicent and good looking food for them. So, guard down, nobody is attacking you, we are just playing!!!!


----------



## SerenityFL

JayJayisme said:


> Heh, heh, heh...that's funny.
> 
> I don't get paranoid. I get irritated. And yes, this group irritates me. It's like Claybuster times 5. It's not _what_ they believe, it's the _way_ they blew in here and tried to push their beliefs without being able to really answer many of the very legitimate questions posed by myself and others and without familiarizing themselves with the "culture" of this forum first. It's happened here and on the kibble forum before, and it will likely happen again. I've seen it before in other unrelated forums too. I've been using the 'Net for a long time now. It's not what you think and it has nothing to do with paranoia. It's about preserving the integrity of this forum.


They didn't PUSH anything, stop being so rude.


----------



## CavePaws

Azra, I am disappointed to say the least. No one had thrown any punches below the belt yet; though now you have. As I mentioned, the general consensus of people on this forum, and in most places of educated civilized debate, is that once you begin personally insulting your opponent you have become insecure in your own side of the argument. I highly suggest you take a cool down break if you wish for anyone to give what you are saying any merit at all.


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## Azra maltese

In fact, ALL of you are welcomed to visit us on the forum we are spending most of the time, posting our menu's and discussing our dogs problems. It is in Sebian (or Croatian or Bosnian) but, feel free to use English, all the time somebody will reply:
Balkanska Kinologija • Pogledaj temu - Dnevni meni a la balkankinology chefs 30.deo


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## Azra maltese

CavePaws said:


> Azra, I am disappointed to say the least. No one had thrown any punches below the belt yet; though now you have. As I mentioned, the general consensus of people on this forum, and in most places of educated civilized debate, is that once you begin personally insulting your opponent you have become insecure in your own side of the argument. I highly suggest you take a cool down break if you wish for anyone to give what you are saying any merit at all.


Could you please quote which of my posts is below the belt? Did you read his statements from previous page?


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## magicre

Azra maltese said:


> In fact, ALL of you are welcomed to visit us on the forum we are spending most of the time, posting our menu's and discussing our dogs problems. It is in Sebian (or Croatian or Bosnian) but, feel free to use English, all the time somebody will reply:
> Balkanska Kinologija • Pogledaj temu - Dnevni meni a la balkankinology chefs 30.deo


whilst i don't speak your language, i do speak emoticons.

why would i post on your forum, when it is clear to me that the people of this forum are fun for you. i feel as if you are laughing at us.

i appreciate the way you feed and i think it's great that you have researched to the extent that you have researched and that you believe what you believe as intensely as what we believe.....

i think there have been some rude statements in this thread by both parties.....

and i just got out by the skin of my teeth, if you understand that idiom.....from another thread that had to do with carbohydrates and dogs....

so, thank you but no thank you. i won't be posting on your forum. and i'm kind of done with this thread.

never have i been so tired and exhausted in being a raw feeder as i am right now.


----------



## wiliana

I think that in last few pages is set out a lot of unnecessary words that really do not concern this topic. I do not know how Moderators are regulating the flow of topics on this forum, but I suggest that the unnecessary and personal statements should be deleted. This forum is about dog's nutrition, the topic is in the right place. For some, this diet is something new and for others not, but certainly people are interested in this type of diet (either only informative, either for future use, either because they can not agree that this is a quality diet ). 
Anyhow, we are here, feeding this way and trying to answer on any question. Offcourse, if the question was asked to sound arrogant or only to disclaim something or someone, will often get a similar response, and that's where we are loosing normal and constructive conversation. 
If there is interest in this form of feeding, I think that all of us have what to say, cause all of us, like all of you, are trying to feed our dogs in the best way we believe it is, and all of us are doing researches, and all of us want the best for them.
Magicre...I saw that you asked me something few pages ago...I will answer, but I have to go now and will be back later.


----------



## magicre

i don't disagree with you in so far as language has deteriorated and gone off track from what it started out to be and where it is now.

i am not american by birth. 

one thing i've learned living in this, my adopted country.

and that is we have probably a very successful melting pot that works as no other country has.

we could have serbs, africans, afrikaaners, croatians, russians, arabs, israelis living on the same block. not to mention armenians and turks....

and war has not broken out. any intolerance is not shown publically, no matter what the opinion is privately....so a statement as the one that came from your friend was nor never will be accepted without it offending.

i agree that there is rudeness on both sides. and there should not be. it should be a discussion and an agreement to disagree. 

i also see on your forum that we are being made fun of.....so i guess we are even.


----------



## magicre

and, having said that, the discussion about what to feed our dogs has gone by the wayside....because both sides have been distracted by un necessary words....

in my opinion, this thread is done.....it is of no use anymore.


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## cprcheetah

Interesting website especially when you use Google Translate and see what you have been writing about this forum...thanks for the read....


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## magicre

cprcheetah said:


> Interesting website especially when you use Google Translate and see what you have been writing about this forum...thanks for the read....


we are, still, the ugly americans, yes? 

i found that out when i was in europe.....

and i am not even american born....


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## cprcheetah

magicre said:


> we are, still, the ugly americans, yes?
> 
> i found that out when i was in europe.....
> 
> and i am not even american born....


Nope, stupid, naive, ignorant americans, oh and this part particularly peaked my interest....
"Btw, Filth, I do not know why we generally push the Raw food? We do not eat Raw, or pretend to feed Raw ... Perhaps to open there DMBKC ?"


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## MiniSchnauzerLove

No, no, no one wrote that, something you are wrong. We laughed at one post because it's ridiculous from our point of view.


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## MiniSchnauzerLove

cprcheetah said:


> Nope, stupid, naive, ignorant americans, oh and this part particularly peaked my interest....
> "Btw, Filth, I do not know why we generally push the Raw food? We do not eat Raw, or pretend to feed Raw ... Perhaps to open there DMBKC ?"


???? where you find this


----------



## cprcheetah

MiniSchnauzerLove said:


> ???? where you find this


On the forum you so kindly gave us the link to


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## SerenityFL

I would like to see that link, too.

What I did read, (also using translate), was them mocking one particular individual here, not the entire forum.


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## MiniSchnauzerLove

But where? we much chatting among themselves, I do not know where is that writen in Serbian.


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## magicre

cprcheetah said:


> Nope, stupid, naive, ignorant americans, oh and this part particularly peaked my interest....
> "Btw, Filth, I do not know why we generally push the Raw food? We do not eat Raw, or pretend to feed Raw ... Perhaps to open there DMBKC ?"


that is what the ugly american is.....great book.

i didn't use the google translater...but the emoticons kind of gave away the syntax of the conversation...


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## MiniSchnauzerLove

I asked our friend Dime to put all our menus ever saved, it has lots of pictures, if you do not like, at least it will be interesting!:tongue:


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## MiniSchnauzerLove

magicre said:


> that is what the ugly american is.....great book.
> 
> i didn't use the google translater...but the emoticons kind of gave away the syntax of the conversation...


please, whether we can explain where it says, a lot of emoticons beds in mutual conversation.....


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## SerenityFL

magicre said:


> that is what the ugly american is.....great book.
> 
> i didn't use the google translater...but the emoticons kind of gave away the syntax of the conversation...


re, they were mocking one person. They were not mocking the entire forum.


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## cprcheetah

Here it is,it was posted by a member Diana: Post subject: Re: Daily menu a la balkankinology chefs 30.deo Posted: Fri Oct 07, 2011 7:12 pm

Btw, Filth, I do not know why we generally push the Raw food? We do not eat Raw, or pretend to feed Raw ... Perhaps to open there DMBKC ?



Tema posta: Re: Dnevni meni a la balkankinology chefs 30.deoPoslato: Pet Okt 07, 2011 7:12 pm 

Btw,Filth,ne znam ni zasto se mi uopste guramo na Raw ishranu? Mi ne hranimo Raw,niti se pravimo da hranimo Raw... Mozda da otvorimo tamo DMBKC ?

while not mocking they do refer to several members in their thread: "Today I remember that ..... .







Tobi, Scarlett_O, IslandPaws4Raw, DaViking, JayJayisme, DaViking, RawFedDog.......


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## MiniSchnauzerLove

cprcheetah said:


> Here it is,it was posted by a member Diana: Post subject: Re: Daily menu a la balkankinology chefs 30.deo Posted: Fri Oct 07, 2011 7:12 pm
> 
> Btw, Filth, I do not know why we generally push the Raw food? We do not eat Raw, or pretend to feed Raw ... Perhaps to open there DMBKC ?
> aaaaaaaaaa, mistake, she says that is stupid we have opened this topic, it is better that we opened our original, as it turns out that we like as we are on our forum...
> 
> 
> Tema posta: Re: Dnevni meni a la balkankinology chefs 30.deoPoslato: Pet Okt 07, 2011 7:12 pm
> 
> Btw,Filth,ne znam ni zasto se mi uopste guramo na Raw ishranu? Mi ne hranimo Raw,niti se pravimo da hranimo Raw... Mozda da otvorimo tamo DMBKC ?


aaaaa, mistake, she says that is stupid we have opened this topic, it is better that we opened our original, as it turns out that we like as we are on our forum....


----------



## spook

magicre said:


> we are, still, the ugly americans, yes?


*What! ... Who said that?
Where does it .. on the Balkan forum?*


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## Dude and Bucks Mamma

I read a few posts and gave up... again. I apologize if this has already been said but has anyone ever considered splitting the "Raw Feeding" section into "PMR" and "BARF"? 

We PMR feeders will never agree with these people who think dogs need veggies and whatnot and they will never agree with us that dogs don't. It is simply 2 different ways of feeding and we both think we are 100% correct in how we feed. Raw is too broad a term. Kibble is little pellets of food... Simple. One section. Raw? There's veggies, no veggies, grains and veggies, yogurt and grains, fruits and veggies, fruits and grains, rice and yogurt, meat & bones & organs... Need I go on?

I think there would be a lot more peace on this forum if PMR and BARF was separated. I think I'm going to attempt to read the whole thread now... Back to page... 8!... or something like that...


----------



## wiliana

You really led me to read posts on our thread and look where we insulted you. Google translator is really bad for this purpose. Copying some posts from here to there was in order to show "them there" how some of you get us, and think of us as some strange "group". It is stupid to interpret some laughing smiley like it is devoted on your adress. People, we already have 30 parts of that thread and having fun all the time, and we laughed while we did not know your forum even exists!
I'm sorry that it turned out how it turned out. If someone commented on something there against you personally, it was none of us who have come on this board. There are many people using that thread.
Anyway, from our start here, there was intend of some users to see our backs, and it culminated like it is now. I dont blame anyone, cause whole situation is really stupid.

We really came in good faith, to talk about food and now I am totally unbelievable that I have to justify about this...
However...


----------



## cprcheetah

MiniSchnauzerLove said:


> aaaaa, mistake, she says that is stupid we have opened this topic, it is better that we opened our original, as it turns out that we like as we are on our forum....


So you are saying Google translate totally botched that? I find that hard to believe, that it made THAT MANY mistakes on one sentance.


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## SerenityFL

Ok, first, I see no difference in what they say than what others say here when they have had "interactions" on other forums.

Second, I was right in my thoughts about "spook". I knew she wasn't American, (your writing gives it away), and I knew it had something to do with this group. Some of you on DFC know that I said this. (It was not written here, it was written elsewhere.)

I will call out on that. There is no need to play a stupid game of pretending to be a user from America to defend your friends. First of all, as I said, it was blindingly obvious to me that you were not American. It was also obvious to me that you were part of this group. 

I wrote this yesterday to some of the DFC members that I knew there was something, "off" about Spook. I don't like being played and I don't think anyone else here likes being played. Be honest with who you are. Be honest with what you believe. If you are sure of what you believe, you do not need to "fake" it by pretending to be someone else to support those who say what you believe.

I don't care about the rest of it but I do care when people play games like that.

Aleksandra Jankovic wrote:

you have to, not to say that we have brought an arrogant :mrgreen:

and who is the theft of the spook  ?


I ... 
At first, fine, but when they moved to my ... (punch) [/ Quote]
Au, Alexander became an American to us, and defend us from there :griny)


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## Dude and Bucks Mamma

Azra maltese said:


> Thanks, I am ashamed to admit that my Azra was raised on RC (at that time I was stupid enough to allow my vet to convince me that RC has "everything dog needs, and that no man can properly balance natural food in his kitchen").
> And ever since, I am on different forums, reading and learning. And, really, I do not mind if proven that I am wrong in something. After all, we are here to accomodate our dogs/


No worries  we were all there once. I raised Dude on Pedigree. Yuck.


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## magicre

cprcheetah said:


> So you are saying Google translate totally botched that? I find that hard to believe, that it made THAT MANY mistakes on one sentance.


i will agree that google translater reminds me of the old alta vista translater and neither was very good...

but one does not have to understand another language to gauge the tone.

my apolgies to the balkans if i misunderstood. please do not feel you have to defend yourselves, as our people are not defending themselves...nor should any one need to.

yes, i felt as if i were being laughed at . not me in particular, but in general....

there should be a separate group for people who feed the way you feed in the balkans....


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## minnieme

Google translate REALLY sucks. Any translation service that isn't human does. 

I think you're probably getting the general sentiment but unless someone here speaks Serbian and fluent English and wants to translate for us, I wouldn't try to get too much out of it. That aside, it's sad that yet another post has gone into a downward spiral of bickering......


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## SerenityFL

cprcheetah said:


> So you are saying Google translate totally botched that? I find that hard to believe, that it made THAT MANY mistakes on one sentance.


Actually, yes, with this language, it makes A CRAP LOAD of mistakes. I am also using translator and I still don't understand half of what is being said. Some of the words don't even translate at all. And because of the way they speak, it comes out sounding totally different than it would if we were to say it. So yes, it IS possible that it can screw up an entire statement.


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## MiniSchnauzerLove

cprcheetah said:


> So you are saying Google translate totally botched that? I find that hard to believe, that it made THAT MANY mistakes on one sentance.


No totally, but the meaning is different...


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## Diana M.

cprcheetah said:


> So you are saying Google translate totally botched that? I find that hard to believe, that it made THAT MANY mistakes on one sentance.


These are my words and I will explain that to you: This topic has been inserted in RAW forum, and yes- I don`t think the topic need to be placed on RAW forum. This way that you feed the dogs- we don`t. We cook some meals, mostly vegetables, and it's not RAW. Adding grains, it`s not RAW. We add many more things that don`t belong to the RAW.
So I do not think that this topic have to interfire with RAW , what's so strange? You've seen our menus is it strictly a RAW? It is not.
And what is now the point of that quote?

In our forum, there are many topics, from industry food, through RAW diet to bread  As you can see all, our topic has been singled out because they do not belong to any of the listed groups.


----------



## magicre

there's an american saying...

'it's all good'....and 'it ain't no big thang'...

meaning everything is all right.

i think i will say that i gained much insight from looking at your recipes and seeing what you feed your dogs and how healthy and happy they are.

i will say that i'm sorry that the discussion degraded and we could not have a discussion about people who believe with all of their hearts that what they are feeding is as right as what we feed and believe that what we feed is right.....

i am sorry that we could not agree to disagree....and i'm even more sorry that the discussion did not remain civilised nor did it stay within the boundaries of good manners.


----------



## cprcheetah

MiniSchnauzerLove said:


> No totally, but the meaning is different...


I hope so, I have seen WAY too many stir the pot artists on forums I love lately, and I would hate to think that you are just here to ruffle feathers and cause trouble, as this is one of my absolutely favorite forums. Everyone is entitled to their own opinions on what is right for their dog, we just need to make sure we have our facts straight


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## cprcheetah

Diana M. said:


> These are my words and I will explain that to you: This topic has been inserted in RAW forum, and yes- I don`t think the topic need to be placed on RAW forum. This way that you feed the dogs- we don`t. We cook some meals, mostly vegetables, and it's not RAW. Adding grains, it`s not RAW. We add many more things that don`t belong to the RAW.
> So I do not think that this topic have to interfire with RAW , what's so strange? You've seen our menus is it strictly a RAW? It is not.
> And what is now the point of that quote?


You are feeding on the "BARF" Bones and Raw Food Model with a little homecooked since you are cooking some of the meals. True "Raw" is ONLY raw, PMR (Prey Model Raw) is just meat, organs, and bones nothing else. As I have said numerous times in this thread, I commend you guys for the dedication to what & how you feed, however I do just want to clarify facts so if a 'newbie' comes along they are not confused.


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## spook

**** ThIS ENTIRE POST (A VERY LONG POST) WAS COPIED AND PASTED FROM novetbills.com ... THE POST HAS BEEN DELETED FOR COPYWRITE PURPOSES. RFD 

Best wishes, 
Spook:biggrin:


----------



## SerenityFL

cprcheetah said:


> I hope so, I have seen WAY too many stir the pot artists on forums I love lately, and I would hate to think that you are just here to ruffle feathers and cause trouble, as this is one of my absolutely favorite forums. Everyone is entitled to their own opinions on what is right for their dog, we just need to make sure we have our facts straight


I don't think they came here to start problems. I think they came here to share how they feed. Go look at their forum, they've been doing this for a long time. 

But when they came here and certain people started talking down to them, yes, they went to their forum and laughed about that. So what? I would laugh about that as well. The way some of the posts came across, they were way too serious, way too militant and were rude. One can either get upset about that or they can laugh about it. This particular group decided to laugh about it. 

You know, they've been through hell and back so I think someone getting all bent out of shape over what they feed their dogs is quite laughable to them in the big picture.

The only game I saw was the whole spook thing which was entirely unnecessary. But did they come here to cause problems? No. I firmly believe they did not.


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## cprcheetah

I just hope not, I did read in their thread that they have been banned from here before......


----------



## Scarlett_O'

spook said:


> That seems to be the fundamental question ..... typically experience.
> Best wishes,
> Spook:biggrin:
> 
> DELETED BY RFD


So first you are Rob Mueller, now are you now Nora Lenz?????

I REALLY think this "person"(spook) needs to be stopped from quoting a bunch of other people without stating where they are quoting from and who said it first. I have seen forums go WAY down hill when this is allowed! :frown:


----------



## Diana M.

cprcheetah said:


> You are feeding on the "BARF" Bones and Raw Food Model with a little homecooked since you are cooking some of the meals. True "Raw" is ONLY raw, PMR (Prey Model Raw) is just meat, organs, and bones nothing else. As I have said numerous times in this thread, I commend you guys for the dedication to what & how you feed, however I do just want to clarify facts so if a 'newbie' comes along they are not confused.


No.
For example, when I have no time, cook for dogs meal of meat, vegetables and grains. There is no part of the RAW diet. It`s all cooked. I can`t say for my self that I feed my dogs RAW, I don`t. I just MAKE meal for my dogs, sometimest that`s cook, sometimes that`s fresh meat and bones.


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## Grivana

SerenityFL said:


> I don't think they came here to start problems. I think they came here to share how they feed.


exactly, thank you :smile:



cprcheetah said:


> I just hope not, I did read in their thread that they have been banned from here before......


no! Until recently we didn't even know about this forum.
I'm sure that none of us had been here before.


----------



## spook

Scarlett_O' said:


> So first you are Rob Mueller, now are you now Nora Lenz?????
> 
> I REALLY think this "person"(spook) needs to be stopped from quoting a bunch of other people without stating where they are quoting from and who said it first. I have seen forums go WAY down hill when this is allowed! :frown:


Yes I am Nora Lenz.op2:


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## Tobi

Scarlett_O' said:


> So first you are Rob Mueller, now are you now Nora Lenz?????
> 
> I REALLY think this "person"(spook) needs to be stopped from quoting a bunch of other people without stating where they are quoting from and who said it first. I have seen forums go WAY down hill when this is allowed! :frown:


LOL the only thing that he changed was the authors name...

Prey model vs. BARF feeding for dogs

But i'm sure like the last time he was called out on it, he'll say it's his own work, and he's never seen that site! :ban:


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## wiliana

> I just hope not, I did read in their thread that they have been banned from here before......


no no no ...please, stop using online translator for this 
someone wrote that, how some of you dont like our diet and how we start debate about that issue, that this forum will give us ban...that was also joke in the way-they hate our food, they want pray model to be the most popular model-they will give us ban cause we are not in their "clan" ... 
really, i found this forum for the first time few days ago and ask them to join here together... we havent been banned anywhere...yet 

and i agree that spook have to put the source of post as anywone here does when quotig someone. i also think that there is no reason for this kind of acting.

we enjoy having fun, but the main reason why we are here is because of dogs...not to post just to post something


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## Diana M.

cprcheetah said:


> I just hope not, I did read in their thread that they have been banned from here before......


Where did you read that? 
Why are you all so nervous?
Who convinces anyone of anything? This topic has posted moderator if I remember correctly? We wanted to show you how we do it, to share with you what we are proud.
In addition to daily making food for uor dogs we are hang out, drink coffee in the real world, our dogs play together .... thanks to that topic. Now we are one big family from different cities and countries.Would you be proud of it?


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## cprcheetah

If it is google translate, then why the talk of recognizing IP Addresses & such? How is it that you are able to use google translate and type in such good english from Serbian, yet when I translate Serbian to English it messes up so? I'm confused.


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## SerenityFL

cprcheetah said:


> If it is google translate, then why the talk of recognizing IP Addresses & such? How is it that you are able to use google translate and type in such good english from Serbian, yet when I translate Serbian to English it messes up so? I'm confused.


I'm sorry, what?! You are saying they use Google translate to write their posts here? Or maybe they speak some English. I posted on their forum, they responded right away, in English. I think they actually KNOW how to speak English.


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## Dude and Bucks Mamma

Filth said:


> Looks like I missed a lot. I'm glad that a lot of people took part in this thread. I just read a whole thing.
> 
> First of all, I would like to ask you for some respect. The fact that we are new here doesn't mean that we are new in "dog feeding" area. Both sides have their ways of preparing food, the best way to find which one is better for the health of our dogs is to show arguments and discuss normally and with respect. By showing respect I mean not to compare our food to kibble at first. That is disrespecting, and we found that insulting. On the other side do not identify our food to BARF or something else, cause it is simply not that.
> 
> Once again, our meals are prepared of 70% meat and 30% natural supplements(veggies, fruits, grains, dairy products..).
> 
> Many of you asked why do we think it is necessary to feed our dogs with veggies and fruits?
> 
> I feed my dog vegetables and fruits firstly because of the vitamins and minerals they provide.
> 
> @RFD Do you know what are dogs needs of vitamins and minerals on daily basis? Do you know how many vitamins and minerals are in meat? Do you know what are vitamins an minerals for, and what can or can not be done with or without them?
> 
> You said that dog gets all the vitamins and minerals needed from meat? I wouldn't agree. I would say it gets enough to survive, but not to have a long healthy life. Insufficient intake of vitamins will cause problems sooner or later.
> 
> There are some vitamins and minerals in meat, bones and organs but the amount of them is not enough for the basic functions in dogs body. For example, if dog gets a Calcium from a bone, he/she needs a Vitamin D in order to absorb that Calcium. The amount of Vitamin D found in meat, bones and organs is not enough to absorb the amount of Ca dog gets from a bone. That is why we put an egg in the bowl, or a dairy products. It is great source of Vitamin D in this case, and dog needs them.
> 
> The other thing is that with using vegetables you can adjust food to your dogs needs. Our dogs have different phases in their life and being able to give them what they need in each period is a great thing. Variety in their food gives you that possibility. Does a dog needs to eat the same with 3 months of age and with 8 years? Does a dog needs the same diet when pregnant? Meat, bones and organs at 3 months, meat bones and organs at 15 years, meat bones and organs when pregnant or breast feeding, meat bones and organs when sick? Completely same diet in every phase of life dog is going through?
> 
> We stick to the theory that you have to adjust to your dogs needs in different phases. If a dog has a skin, vision or hair problems you can add to his diet tomato, pepper, spinach or dairy products which are all great sources of Vitamin A. Same thing for the immune system. If you have a pregnant bitch you have to increase her intake of Vitamin C. The best way to do it is to give her some fruits and other veggies that provide Vitamin C. If you have a puppy developing adding dairy products or egg shells(and bones of course) will provide him necessary intake of Ca. And so on...
> 
> If you only use liver to fulfill the dogs needs for many Vitamins and Minerals you will very soon end with a dog with hypervitaminosis A. Liver has many vitamins, but first of all it has to much vitamin A. If you want to provide your dog a Vitamin C and you use a liver for that purpose, a dog will get to much vitamin A. That's why we suggest you to use vegetables and fruits and have many ways to provide your dogs what they need.
> 
> Someone asked about digestion of veggies. We boil veggies very short just to change their structure that dog can digest them. Of course, we give tomato, pepper etc. fresh, and none of our dogs have problems with digesting it.
> 
> I would please wiliana to post pictures of her dog eating just meat and then a pic of her dog 6 months later after turning to this way of feeding. You will see that her dog looked just like your dogs look now(in my opinion skinny) and than you will see the change.
> 
> And one more question for all. Why does your dog eats grass when you take him outside? Cause it is sweet? Cause it tastes good? Or maybe cause he/she feels a need for it? Think about it...


My pup has developed just fine on PMR. His vet commented that he is the healthiest pup she has ever treated. He is active, healthy, and happy. 

We don't only use liver. We use as many different organs we can get our hands on. I currently have liver in kidney in my freezer and will be getting ALL of the organs, along with the muscle "organs" like heart, lungs, etc. from privately raised hogs.

As for our dogs being skinny... Most of society is used to seeing overweight dogs. My pup is 100% muscle and my collie has shed a thin layer of plushiness he had and has built more muscle mass. My pup was actually called fat by a vet and he is far from it. I have plenty of pictures posted all over this forum so feel free to find them if you wish. It is better for a dog to be lean and only carry the weight he needs (ie, muscle) and not have to carry around any extra weight. It is much easier on a dog to be lean than heavy. i, in no way, think either one of my dogs are too skinny.

Neither of my dogs eat grass. Buck (when we can manage to get him to let grass to grow) likes to rip up the long grass and toss it into the air while he runs around in it. As soon as it settles, he gathers up another big mouthful and tosses it again. You can see that it is deliberate and he is entertaining himself. Inevitably some does go down his throat, but he spits as much out as he can and won't rest after he is done playing until every blade of grass has been spit back out. Dude has never nibbled on grass. And yes, I would know because they are both intact males and are therefore never allowed out into the yard without supervision.

And again... these pictures are making me hungry!


----------



## Scarlett_O'

Tobi said:


> LOL the only thing that he changed was the authors name...
> 
> Prey model vs. BARF feeding for dogs
> 
> But i'm sure like the last time he was called out on it, he'll say it's his own work, and he's never seen that site! :ban:


YES...that is EXACTLY where I found the new "quote" from....I knew a person who writes English as poorly as the actual "spook's" post are in no way actually writing the long posts!:frown: (and that is not a bash....I dont think I would be able to go to their forum and be able to act as if I am from there without copying and pasting in their native tongue!:wink


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## Grivana

cprcheetah said:


> If it is google translate, then why the talk of recognizing IP Addresses & such? How is it that you are able to use google translate and type in such good english from Serbian, yet when I translate Serbian to English it messes up so? I'm confused.


We learn English in our schools. It's one of schools subject :smile: That's why we don't need Google translate. .


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## Diana M.

cprcheetah said:


> If it is google translate, then why the talk of recognizing IP Addresses & such? How is it that you are able to use google translate and type in such good english from Serbian, yet when I translate Serbian to English it messes up so? I'm confused.


Some of us went to school, sorry ... :biggrin:


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## wiliana

we know english...all of us learned it in school, someone knows it better someone less... sometimes im translating some words that i dont know to say in english, but when you are translating whole sentece or more, it is loosing sence totally


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## wiliana

> As for our dogs being skinny... *Most of society is used to seeing overweight dogs.* My pup is 100% muscle and my collie has shed a thin layer of plushiness he had and has built more muscle mass.


i wrote about this 10 pages before... i especially agree with bolded, i would never wanted my dog to be overweight. while feeding him only meat, he was thiny and muscle, but tiny. he didnt want to eat bigger ammounts of meat, so i couldn't encrease his weight in that way. that was one of the reasons why i sarted feeding him with grains and vegetables, and it worked. very small ammount of those non meet parts in diet with regular training made him perfect, without any fat. tha he wants to eat more ammouts of food, for sure i would not giving him any grains...i would giving him only some veges or fruits with meat


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## naturalfeddogs

xellil said:


> I wish I could find a whole rabbit including stomach contents to see this for myself. That would be very cool.


Ive seen our outdoor cat do it, and it just confirms it for me. When he's done with a rabbit he brings on the back deck, all that is ever left is the stomach and intestines. It is pretty cool!


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## RawFedDogs

Filth said:


> If dogs ordinate from wolf it doesn't mean that dogs diet TODAY should be the same as their ancestors diet was a million years ago. Evolution made a lot bigger changes than empowering dogs to digest and absorb plant matter. I don't get it why you find that so hard to believe in. That is simply why we are adjusting to what they need and provide them those stuff in their diet.


Ok, if what you say is true, you should be able to point out the differences between the digestive system of a wild wolf of today and our dogs of today. I've never been able to find anything that says they are different. Same teeth, same jaw structure, same esophagus, same stomach, same small intestines, same large intestines, same anus, same pancreas, same liver. So tell me what those changes are that make a dog able to digest and extract nutrients from plants that they couldn't do a million years ago.


----------



## tem_sat

Scarlett_O' said:


> So first you are Rob Mueller, now are you now Nora Lenz?????
> 
> I REALLY think this "person"(spook) needs to be stopped from quoting a bunch of other people without stating where they are quoting from and who said it first. I have seen forums go WAY down hill when this is allowed! :frown:


Can we make this CRYSTAL clear please...

Spook, DO NOT copy and paste from a source with out CREDITING the author!

Dang that annoys the hell outta me!

Sorry had to vent!


----------



## MiniSchnauzerLove

For SerenityFL
My little bee


----------



## Diana M.

RawFedDogs said:


> Ok, if what you say is true, you should be able to point out the differences between the digestive system of a wild wolf of today and our dogs of today. I've never been able to find anything that says they are different. Same teeth, same jaw structure, same esophagus, same stomach, same small intestines, same large intestines, same anus, same pancreas, same liver. So tell me what those changes are that make a dog able to digest and extract nutrients from plants that they couldn't do a million years ago.


Perhaps the wolves also digested rice,if thay have someone to cook it for them?


----------



## CavePaws

Diana M. said:


> Some of us went to school, sorry ... :biggrin:


:/

While I did not think you guys were here to start trouble; now I am just saddened by the insults flying left and right. Can you please refrain? I like to see a certain amount of respect on the forums I participate on. I actually only partake in DFC now; it is the only forum I have actually grown to love and appreciate. When I was in public school, I learned some latin, french, and sign language. So none of us here are really uneducated. In fact, Re (Magicre) has a PhD I believe. No need to throw even more insults into the thread. 

I supported you all in bringing a bit of diversity into the place; even though it is different from my belief system. I just think you all need a little more tact and more information to back up your claims. I still do think it would be right of Filth to make their own thread in the Recipes section. However, my suggestion is only a suggestion. I just see this thread being shut down soon.


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## luvMyBRT

Wow!!! 31 pages!! eace:

I would like to ask this question:

If our dogs were supposed to eat veggies, rice, seeds, etc then why are their teeth perfect for tearing through meat and crunching through bone? It seems to me that if they were ment to eat other things besides a PMR type diet wouldn't their teeth show that? Wouldn't they have flat molars used for grinding plant matter and grains? 

If the dog has evolved from the wolf to eat differently why haven't the dogs teeth changed?

I think that mother nature gave the dog (aka carnivore) the proper teeth to eat what was intended. No???


:tongue:

ETA: Bill and I were posting at the same time. LOL.....


----------



## Diana M.

CavePaws said:


> :/
> 
> While I did not think you guys were here to start trouble; now I am just saddened by the insults flying left and right. Can you please refrain? I like to see a certain amount of respect on the forums I participate on. I actually only partake in DFC now; it is the only forum I have actually grown to love and appreciate. When I was in public school, I learned some latin, french, and sign language. So none of us here are really uneducated. In fact, Re (Magicre) has a PhD I believe. No need to throw even more insults into the thread.


You've been misunderstood again, Grivana and Wiliana just explained: we learn English in schools as a compulsory subject.


----------



## magicre

CavePaws said:


> :/
> 
> While I did not think you guys were here to start trouble; now I am just saddened by the insults flying left and right. Can you please refrain? I like to see a certain amount of respect on the forums I participate on. I actually only partake in DFC now; it is the only forum I have actually grown to love and appreciate. When I was in public school, I learned some latin, french, and sign language. So none of us here are really uneducated. In fact, Re (Magicre) has a PhD I believe. No need to throw even more insults into the thread.
> 
> I supported you all in bringing a bit of diversity into the place; even though it is different from my belief system. I just think you all need a little more tact and more information to back up your claims. I still do think it would be right of Filth to make their own thread in the Recipes section. However, my suggestion is only a suggestion. I just see this thread being shut down soon.


i wasn't smart enough to get a phD.....i only have an MD and a BS. 

i think there are nuances.....that none of us will 'get'.....and slang.....when she said some of us went to school, she used the evil grin to show a little sarcasm. nothing wrong with that.

we'll be okay.....we just have to look beyond the words to the meaning behind the words...

for instance, i thought that these dogs from the balkan forum were fed raw proteins and pureed veggies, fruits and some grains and seeds.

now, i think diana says she doesn't feed raw at all, but feeds cooked? do i have that right?

is it filth who feeds raw with veggies, fruits, grains, and seeds? because i swear some of those bowls had raw meat in them...

and i hope no one is feeding cooked bones or did i misunderstand that, also?


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## Diana M.

magicre said:


> now, i think diana says she doesn't feed raw at all, but feeds cooked? do i have that right?
> 
> is it filth who feeds raw with veggies, fruits, grains, and seeds? because i swear some of those bowls had raw meat in them...
> 
> and i hope no one is feeding cooked bones or did i misunderstand that, also?



No, no, no and no ....
And I am giving the fresh meat usually, but I am not gave them *only* fresh meat and bone. Sometimes I cook meat I and always cook vegetables and grains . And because of this "sometimes" I do not think that I feed my dogs Raw. Simply as that.


----------



## magicre

Diana M. said:


> No, no, no and no ....
> And I am giving the fresh meat usually, but I am not gave them *only* fresh meat and bone. Sometimes I cook meat I and always cook vegetables and grains . And because of this "sometimes" I do not think that I feed my dogs Raw. Simply as that.


ok. i understand now. in my opinion, you do feed a style of raw if you feed your dog raw meat and bones, even if it is part time.

are there certain times or conditions that you think cooking is necessary or raw is necessary? a stage of life perhaps? or your dog is sick that day? or you are giving a variety?

i know you have to boil your pork. is that when you cook the meat? are there other meats that require cooking because of disease or again, is this variety?


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## Diana M.

example:
Today's meal:
Breakfast: Pear
Second breakfast (she's pregnant, eats small meals)
Fish








lunch
cereal in home made yogurt, egg, horse meat (fresh) calf rib (fresh), goat cheese








Bone soup, buckwheat, some cooked vegetables, honey (don`t know how to say to you, let him be honey),algae








Lunch 2
boiled beef tongue have no pic.)


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## Diana M.

magicre said:


> ok. i understand now. in my opinion, you do feed a style of raw if you feed your dog raw meat and bones, even if it is part time.
> 
> are there certain times or conditions that you think cooking is necessary or raw is necessary? a stage of life perhaps? or your dog is sick that day? or you are giving a variety?
> 
> i know you have to boil your pork. is that when you cook the meat? are there other meats that require cooking because of disease or again, is this variety?



I cook the meat when I buy meat at the new place and when I am not sure of the quality.
I cook when I have to prepare a meal for two or three days in advance.
Most often receive a fresh meat and bones, but they not feel bad from cooked  They eat with equal pleasure, and digest good as cooked as fresh.


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## Dude and Bucks Mamma

Diana M. said:


> Perhaps our English is bad?
> In those 30% are all other: soup, vegetables, fruits, rice, dairy products. Of course, everyone for his/her dog knows what he does not feel good and not used as food, is it necessary to bold?


It isn't perfect, but it's pretty darn good!!!! Heck, MINE's not perfect! I am having no problem understanding you at all. I, however, wouldn't have a chance in your country  Not a one. 

I feel I am falling way behind in this thread now that I am determined to read it... I'm kind of with Linsey on this one. BARF is raw... PMR is raw...


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## Azra maltese

magicre said:


> ok. i understand now. in my opinion, you do feed a style of raw if you feed your dog raw meat and bones, even if it is part time.
> 
> are there certain times or conditions that you think cooking is necessary or raw is necessary? a stage of life perhaps? or your dog is sick that day? or you are giving a variety?
> 
> i know you have to boil your pork. is that when you cook the meat? are there other meats that require cooking because of disease or again, is this variety?


Misunderstanding again. We do not have a strict rules, but there are some. We are NEVER giving raw pork meet cause is Europe is still at risk from pseudorabbie virus. Or, if one is not sure in the quality of the meet, or...


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## CavePaws

Wolf









Dog


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## naturalfeddogs

CavePaws said:


> Wolf
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Dog


They look just the same to me. Just right for tearing meat! I see no form of plant eating teeth there at all. If their teeth arn't designed for plants, then why would anything inside them be any different either???


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## Azra maltese

One question:
Why are so many people surprised that this thread is 30 pages long? Our thread on Blakan Kinology forum is almost 3000 pages long (30 parts x 100 pages) ! If it's interesting, why not!


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## CavePaws

I tried really hard to find an x-ray of a wolfs digestive system. I have no clue why there are none posted on the internet as I'm sure there have been quite a few done...Dogs on the other hand, we had plenty. I was sad I couldn't find one of a wolf though. :|

I'm actually trying hard to find the x-rays I have of Indi's digestive system from our emergency vet. They gave me a CD I just can't figure out where it is. :/


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## magicre

Azra maltese said:


> Misunderstanding again. We do not have a strict rules, but there are some. We are NEVER giving raw pork meet cause is Europe is still at risk from pseudorabbie virus. Or, if one is not sure in the quality of the meet, or...


i have a feeling this will neither be first or last time i misunderstand.

but i begin to understand your guidelines.

interesting that you cook when you are not sure of the source from where you get your meat. 

i tried to join your forum but i cannot seem to log in 

i see what you mean by guidelines.

and i also understand what filth said about only giving one source for certain vitamins.....

this is all very interesting....

in my world, the giving of vitamins comes from giving a variety of animals, fowl, fish. not just from the organs, but from a different animal which supplies different vitamins and minerals.

in my world, dairy isn't good for man nor beast unless it's their milk, so a pregnant dog would nurse the puppies but after that, no more dairy once weaned. same with human babies. no more dairy after being weaned from mother's milk. but that's my world


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## magicre

Azra maltese said:


> One question:
> Why are so many people surprised that this thread is 30 pages long? Our thread on Blakan Kinology forum is almost 3000 pages long (30 parts x 100 pages) ! If it's interesting, why not!


recently, when we get threads that are over 30 pages they are filled with fighting and insults.


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## Dude and Bucks Mamma

MiniSchnauzerLove said:


> I am a big opponent of dry food, because I know better than you what is in it.


I bet we are just as knowledgeable.


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## Azra maltese

magicre said:


> i have a feeling this will neither be first or last time i misunderstand.
> 
> but i begin to understand your guidelines.
> 
> interesting that you cook when you are not sure of the source from where you get your meat.
> 
> i tried to join your forum but i cannot seem to log in
> 
> i see what you mean by guidelines.
> 
> and i also understand what filth said about only giving one source for certain vitamins.....
> 
> this is all very interesting....
> 
> in my world, the giving of vitamins comes from giving a variety of animals, fowl, fish. not just from the organs, but from a different animal which supplies different vitamins and minerals.
> 
> in my world, dairy isn't good for man nor beast unless it's their milk, so a pregnant dog would nurse the puppies but after that, no more dairy once weaned. same with human babies. no more dairy after being weaned from mother's milk. but that's my world


You got the point here. We also have different opinions about that, but everybody is doing it differently. Some of us beleive that their dogs are lactose tolerant some not. For instance, my Azra was feeded with yogurt or white cheese (non salty) during her pregnancy and nursery. I am still adding whey from time to time, but that is different subject.


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## magicre

Azra maltese said:


> You got the point here. We also have different opinions about that, but everybody is doing it differently. Some of us beleive that their dogs are lactose tolerant some not. For instance, my Azra was feeded with yogurt or white cheese (non salty) during her pregnancy and nursery. I am still adding whey from time to time, but that is different subject.


does whey for you have a different meaning than whey has for me?

' Whey protein is a pure, natural, high quality protein from cow's milk. It is a rich source of the essential amino acids needed on a daily basis by the body. In its purest form, as whey protein isolate, it contains little to no fat, lactose or cholesterol.'

is that what whey is to you?


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## Azra maltese

magicre said:


> does whey for you have a different meaning than whey has for me?
> 
> ' Whey protein is a pure, natural, high quality protein from cow's milk. It is a rich source of the essential amino acids needed on a daily basis by the body. In its purest form, as whey protein isolate, it contains little to no fat, lactose or cholesterol.'
> 
> is that what whey is to you?


Should be, it's side product during cheese production.


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## Dude and Bucks Mamma

Azra maltese said:


> That is your problem. You are defending your way of feeding on the way religious extremists are defending their religion (doesn't matter which). But, I am not here to attack your "religion", I do not really care, I am here to learn and for fun!!!
> In fact, in our Balkan Kinology Forum, we are playing: we are posting our menu's daily, then voting for a daily winner, then weekly, monthly, annual! We enjoy spending quality time with our pets even if it includes spending extra time to prepare dicent and good looking food for them. So, guard down, nobody is attacking you, we are just playing!!!!


I don't know why PMR keeps getting called a religion... It's dog food...


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## Azra maltese

Dude and Bucks Mamma said:


> I don't know why PMR keeps getting called a religion... It's dog food...


I was refering to his way defending it, not PMR itself. Apologize if misunderstood.


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## CorgiPaws

Grivana said:


> I have to admit that all this begins to annoy me a bit.
> Filth, Wiliana, Diana, MiniSchnauzerLove and Azra gave you great argument why is diet that we prefer better. They explain everything on best possible way!
> And you don't agree, you have strong beliefs that RFD is the only way... We don't agree with your way, and never will. Your side and our side disagree and that's the fact that won't change for 30 new pages of this thread.


I'm in full agreement with this. I can't for the life of me understand why there has been SO MUCH hostility towards this group, simply because they feed differently than tha _majority_ of raw feeders here. 



JayJayisme said:


> It's not _what_ they believe, it's the _way_ they blew in here and tried to push their beliefs without being able to really answer many of the very legitimate questions posed by myself and others and without familiarizing themselves with the "culture" of this forum first. It's happened here and on the kibble forum before, and it will likely happen again. I've seen it before in other unrelated forums too. I've been using the 'Net for a long time now. It's not what you think and it has nothing to do with paranoia. It's about preserving the integrity of this forum.


And to this I ask... what the fu** do they owe to US< that they HAVE to "familiarize themselves" to the culture on this forum? This is an open forum, and everyone is more than welcome to post- EVEN if they disagree with you, me or anyone else. No one is required to come, study this forum, and come to agree with PMR before being allowed to post. The integrity of this forum is doing just fine, and the first thing in THIS thread that "brought it down" was you calling people nuts or insane because they think differently than you. If you're honestly concerned about the integrity of this forum, please start by not insulting members. 

And PMR is being referred to as a religion because there are some extremists that take it so personal, and resort to attacks that it is MUCH like religious extremists. Even so, politics and religion are not topics that belong on DFC. 

As for the uproar that they might be bad talking DFC on "their" forum... so what if they are? With all the hostility they're received here, I personally think it's warranted. Yeah, Spook keeps copying crap off the internet, and one more time of that is going to get them banned... but the rest of them, they're here sharing their ideas, research, and thoughts. Is it SO hard to believe that someone might be EDUCATED and STILL believe just as firmly in Barf as we do in PMR? There's A LOT of "evidence" out there that supports both ways. I am and always will be a believer in PMR being the best, but just because someone thinks otherwise doesn't make them nuts. 
When people annoy me, or seem to be ignorant, I might vent to my friends, be it online or in person. I can ASSURE you, I've done so more than once about some people here. :wink: Go ahead. Hate me. Because apparently no one is EVER allowed to voice irritation over DFC. 

I'm appalled at the behavior in this thread, PRIMARILY from a couple members, and I think between this thread, and the last 30 page debate on the same matter... all that needs to be said has been said, and because it's resorted to really freaking petty personal attacks, including an immature race card, and insane amounts of arrogance... thread closed.
:closed_2:


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