# Where did the 80/10/10 guidelines come from?



## Caty M (Aug 13, 2010)

Chicken is almost 30% bone.. turkey maybe a bit less.. where did these guidelines come from? Both of my dogs need more than 10% bone.


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## Liz (Sep 27, 2010)

Not sure but I would love to know also, my dog need waaaayyyy more bone than 10%


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## CorgiPaws (Mar 31, 2009)

I was actually wondering this myself the other day. I have a couple dogs that do excellent with very little bone, but for the most part I think my bone content is above 10%. 
I think there's just a lot of wiggle room really. And you also have to consider, would dogs in the wild eat primarily birds, whose bones are easily entirely devoured, or would their diet consist of much larger animals whose overall bodies are certainly over the 10% mark, but how much is edible bone? 

I don't know the answer, and for sure it would be different for each area, but I think that's one of the best aspects of raw: it just doesn't matter. Specifics don't matter. But it is a curious figure, for sure.


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## Tobi (Mar 18, 2011)

Bill knows! :biggrin:

I'm curious hopefully he'll chime in! 



Liz said:


> Not sure but I would love to know also, my dog need waaaayyyy more bone than 10%


I wish mine did it'd be cheaper! :lol:... he can only get about 6-7% a week otherwise i'm watching a dust storm when he poopies...


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## Ania's Mommy (Feb 8, 2009)

I never really DID the 80/10/10 rule. I suck at math AND guesstimating, so following the 80/10/10 rule would... well... suck.

I feed MOSTLY meat. SOME bone. And SOME organ. Easy peasy! :becky:


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## hcdoxies (Sep 22, 2010)

The ratio is 80/10/10 of EDIBLE bone. Basically... the very specific bone parts. For example -- Say I feed my dachshund 4 oz per day. I give 60% (2.4 oz) meat/organ plus 40% (1.6 oz) RMB (chicken necks). 40% because there's still a lot of meat left on the chicken neck. So, I actually am giving about 10% of actual, real bone... the rest is just meat.


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## Caty M (Aug 13, 2010)

But taking into account chicken is 30% edible bone, wouldn't it be bad to mostly feed chicken? I don't, but I have fed chicken only for a month with Tessie as she was very sensitive to switching proteins. She only ever had crumbly poop when I fed defatted, skinned chicken back (probably 50% bone. A drum which is still way higher than 10% edible bone gives her perfectly fine poop.


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## DoglovingSenior (Jun 26, 2011)

bishopthesheltie said:


> Chicken is almost 30% bone.. turkey maybe a bit less.. where did these guidelines come from? Both of my dogs need more than 10% bone.


I think his name was Lonsdale, it came out while I was still on boards so that would be very late 90's or early 2000's.


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## DoglovingSenior (Jun 26, 2011)

I was correct about the name, Tom Lonsdale, a vet surgeon. Wrong about the date Seems this started around '05. I could have sworn that I heard it on line.


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## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

WAs it Lonsdale? 

This 10% is highly, highly debated. And I think one bad piece of advice new raw feeders get is "don't worry about it, it all evens out over time." That is true, as long as you have a basic knowledge of what they need.

Here is a website that makes sense to me, and rather than go by the 10% rule (which this site also advocates) I try to follow the calcium/phosphorus ratio. 
Calcium to Phosphorus Ratio

I made a mistake with one of my dogs - eating bones constipated her, and so i kept reducing the bone, thinking well I give her a bone a couple of days a week and it will all even out. I don't think that's true any more. If you give your dog mostly boneless meals, the calcium/phoshorus ratio will be way out of whack.

Now, my other dog I don't worry about. Because I think I understand the need a little better, I think that giving him a boneless meal is ok as long as he also gets a bony meal to offset it. Because he has no trouble eating bone, it's all good.

But my smaller dog, I supplement with eggshells to try to get close to the 2.5:1 calcium/phosphorus ratio recommended because she just can't handle what I consider to be enough bone.

It seems to me my dog is not alone - I am starting to think a common mistake with new raw feeders (like me) is that we tend to let that calcium/phosphorus ratio drop too low, because we don't like to see dry poops. I no longer worry about dry poops - if he is pooping without trouble, I really don't care whether it's white or not.


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

do you have another source about calcium and phosphorous?

not that i doubt you...but i would want to read an article that isn't on a site that sells something....and believe me, i think you're very knowledgeable....

but that web site sells ground meats....i don't know that i can dig that....at all.

plus....what does one do with a twenty pound dog that only has so much caloric real estate or they start looking like a little blimp....say hello to my liddle friend, bubba...who has gained 4 pounds since being on raw....

so if i feed a boney meal in the morning, like a pork rib or drumstick and a boneless meal in the evening, doesn't that balance things out?

even as a human, i could drive myself crazy combining foods and certain vitamins and minerals...but i try to get my balance throughout the day, not with every meal.....and i think that's a working method with dogs, too...or am i totally out there?


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## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

No, I am not that knowledgable, believe me - I am just trying to figure out what would be the best for my dogs, and I know the prey model says 80:10:10 based on what probably consitutes a prey, but even that is debated.

the 2.5:1 ratio was originally established by AAFCE in 1996 and NRC in 1974 - now, I know these organizations don't have alot of respect in raw feeding circles (and with good reason) but it does seem to me that the research that they did in order to produce bad dog food is not necessarily bad research, and can be applied to raw feeding.

Here's an article from a fellow who doesn't seem to be selling anything and he seems to believe the correct ratio is 1:1- so everyone needs to decide for themselves. What HE says, and of course as someone who feeds raw I totally agree with, is that if you feed your dog enough raw meaty bones they get what they need. And that also, too MUCH calcium is very bad for your animals.
K9joy Education: free article on " Balancing the Calcium/Phosphorous ratio in a raw diet for dogs " by Mogens Eliasen

If you look at different sites you will see lots of different ratios - 1.7:1, 2:1, etc. 

Now, if you feed your dogs raw meaty bones you don't have to worry about any ratios, in my opinion. But if, like me, you have to keep reducing the amount of bone in your dog's diet, you might start looking around, because supplementation is necessary. I am choosing the AAFCO guidelines because the org is awful, but I don't think the science behind it is.


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## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

Personally, I think if I feed my dog a chicken leg that's about the right ratio - a raw meaty bone. If I feed him a turkey neck, that's more bone than meat. So then I add in a boneless meal and it all balances out. 

Just my opinion, everyone needs to make their own decision.

By the way, my dog gained 10 pounds the first two weeks on a raw diet. He is now getting only 1.5% of his bodyweight, trying to lose a little. It was VERY easy to pack the pounds on him, because the food quantity seems so tiny.


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

i actually read this guy and then made the mistake of getting his newsletter....for me, he's just a little out there.

starting out with 'i don't know and i don't think anyone else does either'....

i get the feeling that when wolves take down a deer, they don't stand in line so they get a piece of meat and a bone....

without knowing much about wolves, i would think it's according to some kind of hierarchy or even anarchy as to who gets what.....

but, certainly it's not standing in line like we did at school for lunch....

i've watched human vitamin gurus tell people absolute garbage about what they need, without knowing the science behind vitamins and minerals....and how to correctly make them....and that each human is different according to his/her needs....just so they can sell one a day vitamins.....

i have to say the same about feeding dogs....i don't know exactly what they need, besides meat, bone and organ....and i say this in reference to how much of each.....because protein has phosphorous and bone has calcium and organs have a lot of phosphorous...but protein also has calcium....and combined with bone and organ, plus considering the dog's needs.....

i don't know that i can spreadsheet this....i'm not even sure anyone can.....

i just don't know. but thank you for providing me with the links....


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## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

Yes, when I started this I thought it would be a perfect world - give them a bone, a little organ, wa-la. And it IS a perfect world for one dog, I just never worry about ratios of anything. And I think that's why people stress variety - my goat is very bony, chicken can be meaty or bony, it all evens out. I think I'm giving him alot more than 10% bone but I just don't worry about it because it's as close to a whole animal as I can make it.

The problem started arising when I realized I couldn't give one of my dogs meaty bones all the time, or she would never poop. Then I read a couple of places where people say they only give their dogs bones on occasion (maybe like me, their dogs can't handle all the bones) - to me, that's not what prey model raw is about. We can't go adjusting the prey model or things get out of whack. But we have to adjust for the dogs - I chose to give eggshells as a supplement, thus I think for people who reduce the bone, they need to be concerned about things like calcium/phosphorus ratios because now we are getting into a man-made diet and not a true prey model.


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

xellil said:


> Yes, when I started this I thought it would be a perfect world - give them a bone, a little organ, wa-la. And it IS a perfect world for one dog, I just never worry about ratios of anything. And I think that's why people stress variety - my goat is very bony, chicken can be meaty or bony, it all evens out. I think I'm giving him alot more than 10% bone but I just don't worry about it because it's as close to a whole animal as I can make it.
> 
> The problem started arising when I realized I couldn't give one of my dogs meaty bones all the time, or she would never poop. Then I read a couple of places where people say they only give their dogs bones on occasion (maybe like me, their dogs can't handle all the bones) - to me, that's not what prey model raw is about. We can't go adjusting the prey model or things get out of whack. But we have to adjust for the dogs - I chose to give eggshells as a supplement, thus I think for people who reduce the bone, they need to be concerned about things like calcium/phosphorus ratios because now we are getting into a man-made diet and not a true prey model.


i'm not understanding. why can't we adjust the prey model....i thought the 80 - 10 - 10 is a guideline not a carve in stone kind of thing....

it's the same with humans. not all humans can tolerate gluten or meat or fish and therefore have to get those nutrients from something else..isn't that the way of dogs?

it's just a finer balancing act...i think....is that what you mean?


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## RaisingWolves (Mar 19, 2011)

xellil said:


> Here's an article from a fellow who doesn't seem to be selling anything and he seems to believe the correct ratio is 1:1- so everyone needs to decide for themselves. What HE says, and of course as someone who feeds raw I totally agree with, is that if you feed your dog enough raw meaty bones they get what they need. And that also, too MUCH calcium is very bad for your animals.
> K9joy Education: free article on " Balancing the Calcium/Phosphorous ratio in a raw diet for dogs " by Mogens Eliasen



If I'm understanding the article correctly, the author is echoing what Dr. Billinghurst states in his book "Grow Your Pup With Bones". 

This is from "Grow Your Pup With Bones" by Dr. Billinghurst (taken from Chapter 8 The Calcium Dilemma, after he talks about the dangers of excessive artificial calcium):


Solving the Calcium Dilemma

"What is the magic food- this miracle food? It's called Raw Meaty Bones. Raw meaty bones should form 50-60% of the diet. It is impossible to cause the calcium problems I mentioned above when you supply calcium to your pup in the form of raw meaty bones.

If you supply your pup(s) with such a diet you will find that there is simply no way you can feed excessive calcium to your pup That is the thumb rule you can believe. It is valid, it is scientific, it is natural, obvious, useful, not difficult to understand, and anyone can do it. The calcium and phosphorus will be in the correct ratio, and the diet will never result in an excess of calcium. Nor can you cause problems with other minerals and you will not cause hormonal problems either. It is so simple.

There is not a complete explanation as to why bones do not cause these problems beyond the very obvious fact that they are nature's food for the dog, which means in scientific terms they are what the dog as a pup evolved to eat in order to grow its bones properly.

From a purely technical point of view however, we do have some explanations as to why raw meaty bones work so well. For example, a most important point is the fact that the calcium compounds in bone do not become attached to other minerals in the same way that cooked artificial forms of calcium do when commercial pet foods are produced.

This means other minerals are not made unavailable because of the presence of calcium in the food as bone. A related factor is the chemical form of the calcium in bone. The organic form of calcium in the uncooked bone is nature's way of releasing the other minerals in the digestive tract instead of binding them and preventing their assimilation into your dog's body. In short this raw organic form of calcium is more likely to allow other minerals to be available rather than cause them to be unavailable.

Equally and possibly more important is that in this organic form, your pup's body is able to absorb only what it needs as opposed to the artificial soluble forms of calcium, where the body is actually forced to absorb more than it needs, leading to the problems I have already outlined.

The bottom line with bones is that they are the perfect calcium source for growing puppies.

Only bones have all the ingredients in perfect forum to build bones. They contain all the proteins, fats, and minerals that are required - no excesses and no deficiencies. Of course, this is hardly surprising- dogs have been building their bones from other animals bones for millions of years. "


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## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

Yes, I guess I'm not making myself too clear - for the one dog, I'm sure he's getting more than 10% bone. But I don't worry about it too much because he is getting the meaty bones and fish etc. So I'm definitely using the 10% not even as a guideline - I just give him meat and bones and don't worry at all about percentages. 

If he wasn't eating fish, I'd have to supplement - but he is, so I don't worry about fish oil or anything. 

But for the other, she is getting maybe 2% real bone a week, and that's never going to change - there's no "evening out" of things over time. So we are so far off the guideline, I have to supplement - thus I am working by the 2.5:1 ratio for calcium and phosphorus. But if I didn't supplement, that would be bad for her - she would be getting a huge overdose of phosphorus and almost no calcium. 

And that's when I think people DO need to worry about what their dogs are getting - when they are not eating all the bones, meat, fish etc. That's why I think people need to be aware that if they drastically reduce bone (as I have) or never feed fish, etc, they need to be aware of nutritional needs so they can supplement properly.


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## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

Yes that's exactly what I mean! As long as we are feeding the bones and meat and fish, we don't need to worry.

But when we start messing with the natural formula, we need to worry. I wish I could, with my dog, just feed her boneless all the time and no more poop problems. But she would have an extremely unbalanced diet if I did that. So I need to decide what is the best calcium/phosphorus ratio and try to make sure she is getting what she WOULD be getting if she was eating "correctly."


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## swolek (Mar 31, 2011)

I think I read that the ratio is loosely based on the ratio of meat to edible bone in common prey items of wolves. But don't quote me on that, ha.



PuppyPaws said:


> And you also have to consider, would dogs in the wild eat primarily birds, whose bones are easily entirely devoured, or would their diet consist of much larger animals whose overall bodies are certainly over the 10% mark, but how much is edible bone?


That's a good question! I do know that wild wolves mainly eat red meat (deer, elk, moose, sheep...even beaver, depending on the pack's location) and very little poultry (they might kill turkeys in some areas but don't get much else). Wolves with access to good eating fish like salmon will eat fish but other packs never get it. So while I don't specifically know what wild _dogs_ should eat I figure it's close to what wild _wolves_ eat and therefore try to feed as much red meat as possible.


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