# Those who "rotate":



## meggels (May 30, 2010)

What is your rotation list? I'm curious to see...


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## kevin bradley (Aug 9, 2009)

Wellness Core
Fromm
Acana
...seriously considering Nature's Logic


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## DaViking (Sep 27, 2011)

@meggels; re your question in another thread; Not sure what part you where referring to? Anyway, I'll try to answer if it was the 8 week rotation thingy. Dogs digestive system slowly adapts to a set of ingredients. Intestinal bacteria cultures change to efficiently process what is present in a formula. This is why a full transition takes 12 weeks, 4 to 6 weeks for the intestinal flora alone. The remaining weeks are for the rest of the body to respond to the new ingredients. Those who rotate completely different formulas on a 4 to 12 weeks basis will have a dog that is constantly changing it's gut flora. The result is poor nutritional uptake, loose and/or wet stools. It will gradually become better as the cycle comes to an end and a new one starts. Note that this is true for formulas that are fundamentally different. Some formulas are close and some are meant to be rotated. Usually they only differ in the source of protein. You can try all this yourself if you don't believe me. Fully transition over to, say, Precise Foundation. Then start to rotate in Orijen, Horizon Legacy or similar. Do one of those for 6 weeks and then switch to Back to Basics Pork. Rapid rotation is probably a better choice bet then you need to look at getting appropriate levels of many nutrients.

Changing Dog Food: The Importance Of Transitioning Your Dog?s Food.
http://fruitablespetfood.com/images/2_digestion.pdf


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## BrownieM (Aug 30, 2010)

I feed mostly raw (a large variety from My Pet Carnivore). But I also have plenty of other foods on hand in case something isn't thawed out. I probably feed kibble a few nights a week. Right now I have a bag of Lotus on hand. After this bag is gone, I'll keep some Fromm on hand. After that bag is gone, oh I don't know, I'll pick another brand.

After reading the other thread..I am HONESTLY confused. Very, very confused. If your dog does OKAY with it, what is possibly wrong with switching up the brand/flavor of a food after each bag? Maybe I have just been lucky. Maybe it's because I feed raw so my dogs are already used to a varied diet. But I can buy just about any dog food, that they've never eaten before, and feed it to them. No issues. And so since I can do that, I cannot possibly PERCEIVE the notion of sticking with one food. 

So again, if your dog can accept the variety in dog food, I think it is an ideal way to feed kibble. Buy a different brand (or at least variety) each bag. 

But, if your dog is not doing well switching up brands, then sure..find one brand and stick with it.


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## meggels (May 30, 2010)

Are there foods in your opinion that are good for rotation then?

I know Nature's Variety prairie, they say (the company) is a rotation diet, so that you can rotate through the proteins. Never seen it with another company that I can think of though...

She's never had loose stools during the different foods.


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## DaViking (Sep 27, 2011)

meggels said:


> Are there foods in your opinion that are good for rotation then?
> 
> I know Nature's Variety prairie, they say (the company) is a rotation diet, so that you can rotate through the proteins. Never seen it with another company that I can think of though...
> 
> She's never had loose stools during the different foods.


Fromm Four Star, NV, Horizon Legacy, Rotations are some that come to mind. Many brands make series of interchangeable formulas nowadays.


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## meggels (May 30, 2010)

I didn't know that Fromm 4-star was a rotation food...


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## Celt (Dec 27, 2010)

DaViking said:


> @meggels; re your question in another thread; Not sure what part you where referring to? Anyway, I'll try to answer if it was the 8 week rotation thingy. Dogs digestive system slowly adapts to a set of ingredients. Intestinal bacteria cultures change to efficiently process what is present in a formula. This is why a full transition takes 12 weeks, 4 to 6 weeks for the intestinal flora alone. The remaining weeks are for the rest of the body to respond to the new ingredients. Those who rotate completely different formulas on a 4 to 12 weeks basis will have a dog that is constantly changing it's gut flora. The result is poor nutritional uptake, loose and/or wet stools. It will gradually become better as the cycle comes to an end and a new one starts. Note that this is true for formulas that are fundamentally different. Some formulas are close and some are meant to be rotated. Usually they only differ in the source of protein. You can try all this yourself if you don't believe me. Fully transition over to, say, Precise Foundation. Then start to rotate in Orijen, Horizon Legacy or similar. Do one of those for 6 weeks and then switch to Back to Basics Pork. Rapid rotation is probably a better choice bet then you need to look at getting appropriate levels of many nutrients.
> 
> Changing Dog Food: The Importance Of Transitioning Your Dog?s Food.
> http://fruitablespetfood.com/images/2_digestion.pdf


The article stated that a dog's digestive system produces flora to digest the food that they are fed. Which means if a dog eats the same thing over and over, they will have great difficulty switching to something different. On the other hand, I believe that by feeding a variety of foods my dog's digestive system will produce flora that will enable them to digest this variety because this is how their system is set up. I just wanted to give my experience with switching up foods. I've have not, to date, ever transitioned a dog. So far, I've not had any dog have loose stools. The worse kind of stool has been well formed, just a bit "squishy" when picked up and I seldomly ever had this kind more than once or twice. My dogs coats have been shiny and soft (if they were supposed to be), great energy level, vet trips were almost always only for vaccinations/wellness check-ups, and just overall healthy dogs.


My rotation (this week):
Monday-Nature's Variety Instinct Rabbit (premade raw); Tuesday-BilJac, Wednesday-Brisket, Thursday-Sundancer kibble (free sample), Friday-Nature's Variety Lamb, Saturday-ground beef an chicken neck, Sunday-grilled "steak" (actually a chunk of beef roast), probably with a kibble. Of course, next week may be complete different, depends on what I "run out of" or "find" to try out. Other than trying to make sure I have a variety of foods on hand, I don't really have a list of foods for my "rotation".


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## DaViking (Sep 27, 2011)

Celt said:


> The article stated that a dog's digestive system produces flora to digest the food that they are fed. Which means if a dog eats the same thing over and over, they will have great difficulty switching to something different.


Exactly. It will be a two stage 12 week process if you want to switch. That's why 4 to 8 week rotations between completely different formulas is no good in my opinion. Rapidly switching foods/ingredients like you do is different.



Celt said:


> On the other hand, I believe that by feeding a variety of foods my dog's digestive system will produce flora that will enable them to digest this variety because this is how their system is set up. I just wanted to give my experience with switching up foods. I've have not, to date, ever transitioned a dog. So far, I've not had any dog have loose stools. The worse kind of stool has been well formed, just a bit "squishy" when picked up and I seldomly ever had this kind more than once or twice. My dogs coats have been shiny and soft (if they were supposed to be), great energy level, vet trips were almost always only for vaccinations/wellness check-ups, and just overall healthy dogs.
> 
> 
> My rotation (this week):
> Monday-Nature's Variety Instinct Rabbit (premade raw); Tuesday-BilJac, Wednesday-Brisket, Thursday-Sundancer kibble (free sample), Friday-Nature's Variety Lamb, Saturday-ground beef an chicken neck, Sunday-grilled "steak" (actually a chunk of beef roast), probably with a kibble. Of course, next week may be complete different, depends on what I "run out of" or "find" to try out. Other than trying to make sure I have a variety of foods on hand, I don't really have a list of foods for my "rotation".


Yes, the whole point in my answer in the other thread was that you'r way of "rotating", which is not really a planned rotation, probably produces a fairly steady intestinal flora on a week by week basis. You'll probably get the occasional upset when something unfamiliar is introduced but other than that your dogs nutritional uptake should be good.


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## meggels (May 30, 2010)

DaViking said:


> Exactly. It will be a two stage 12 week process if you want to switch. That's why 4 to 8 week rotations between completely different formulas is no good in my opinion. Rapidly switching foods/ingredients like you do is different.
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, the whole point in my answer in the other thread was that you'r way of "rotating", which is not really a planned rotation, probably produces a fairly steady intestinal flora on a week by week basis. You'll probably get the occasional upset when something unfamiliar is introduced but other than that your dogs nutritional uptake should be good.




Curious as to why feeding something different each day, and doing a new food every say...4 to 6 weeks (I think that's roughly how long a bag lasts with Abbie), is different?


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## DaViking (Sep 27, 2011)

meggels said:


> Curious as to why feeding something different each day, and doing a new food every say...4 to 6 weeks (I think that's roughly how long a bag lasts with Abbie), is different?


In reality it will never be something different every day, as in every day of the year, month or even week. The cycle is way shorter and sooner rather than later familiar ingredients and nutrients are back, in one form or the other. The dog doesn't need to constantly re-build proper intestinal bacteria flora.


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## Deaf Dogs (Apr 10, 2012)

I feed something different every meal. I use anything I feel like buying that's of high quality. Acana (most flavours) Orijen (all flavours) Fromm (All flavours, canned and kibble) Horizon Legacy and Amicus, Addiction (canned, dehydrated, and kibble, all flavours), Blue Wilderness, The Honest Kitchen, Merrick (canned and kibble), K9Natural, Tripette, Canisource, 

Dogs have survived off of eating whatever crap we threw to them, whatever they could scavenge and whatever they could catch and kill for arguably more than 40 000 years. A few decades on kibble is not going to make them dependent on eating the same thing day after day, and infact, I feel it's actually what causes so many dogs to have digestive issues.


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## meggels (May 30, 2010)

DaViking said:


> In reality it will never be something different every day, as in every day of the year, month or even week. The cycle is way shorter and sooner rather than later familiar ingredients and nutrients are back, in one form or the other. The dog doesn't need to constantly re-build proper intestinal bacteria flora.




Okay, so if the dog eats let's say, Earthborn Holistic's GPF for one bag (about 4 weeks), then eats Fromm Chicken a la Veg for 4 weeks, and then one other food for another 4 weeks, and then goes back to the Earthborn, the body will already recognize the ingredients and it won't really have to re-adjust and build up the flora??


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## DaViking (Sep 27, 2011)

meggels said:


> Okay, so if the dog eats let's say, Earthborn Holistic's GPF for one bag (about 4 weeks), then eats Fromm Chicken a la Veg for 4 weeks, and then one other food for another 4 weeks, and then goes back to the Earthborn, the body will already recognize the ingredients and it won't really have to re-adjust and build up the flora??


No, that's too long. In 4 to 6 weeks your dog's bacteria flora have adapted to a set of ingredients. Starting something completely new after 4 weeks means you have a dog that is in constant adapt mode. Theoretically you could intermix formulas throughout the week without any particular issues. He/she will treat it as it was one formula with lots of ingredients. Personally I don't see any point doing it that way but I'm not going to put much effort arguing against it either. If you feel good about intermixing various foods throughout the week and your dogs doesn't seem to mind I say go for it.


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## Kibblelady (Jul 13, 2012)

Hello, new here. I won't say I have an actual "rotation" list but I have a list of foods I will feed but I have not in the past typically planned out when I change or an exact time for feeding them. Right now we have been feeding the same food for over a year for the first time and I am leaving it that way unless something forces me to change that. The foods I have fed and will feed again are similar in make-up in as far as kcal level and protein and fat.

Life's Abundance (What we are feeding now)
Blackwood (prior to company sale, I like the new owner, who are the manufactures and always have been, but they appear to be changing it so we shall see.)
Eagle Pack - Natural Formula (blue bag)



I have fed many other foods over 20 years to different dogs but these are my "go tos." Yeah, nothing fancy on there, I admit I am not impressed with the "grain free" or "low carb" formulas. My dogs do very well on all the foods listed above. I switch right over with no upsets of any kind and have had excellent success with all of them. The first two were so similar in nature you could not pick them out from each other if mixed together, they are made at the same plant. I have to admit that reading this thread has been the first time I have heard of some type of "planned rotation" however, I have been offline for a couple years and am seeing many new things... IMO a rotation is foods you will use interchangeably that are similar enough to each other to not cause upset and the dogs will do similarly on physically. I have a much larger list of foods I like and will recommend to others. I have been looking online the last few weeks and visited my local dog food "havens" and admit my head was dizzy with all the new products. I do not know how people guide their ay through them these days to be honest. It seems like a new product is coming out every week. Anyway, sticking with the LA now, it's my favorite and they have always done wonderfully on it, not feeling the need to switch it up.


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## meggels (May 30, 2010)

DaViking said:


> No, that's too long. In 4 to 6 weeks your dog's bacteria flora have adapted to a set of ingredients. Starting something completely new after 4 weeks means you have a dog that is in constant adapt mode. Theoretically you could intermix formulas throughout the week without any particular issues. He/she will treat it as it was one formula with lots of ingredients. Personally I don't see any point doing it that way but I'm not going to put much effort arguing against it either. If you feel good about intermixing various foods throughout the week and your dogs doesn't seem to mind I say go for it.



Okay, so then how would *you* rotate, specifically? Lol. Or do you think there's just no "successful" or "good" way to do it.


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## DaViking (Sep 27, 2011)

meggels said:


> Okay, so then how would *you* rotate, specifically? Lol. Or do you think there's just no "successful" or "good" way to do it.


You could rotate among Fromm 4 star formulas for example. They are interchangeable so duration on each formula isn't so important. However, there is no escaping a transition period for the protein(s) Similar for NV, Horizon or Rotations.


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## Kibblelady (Jul 13, 2012)

DaViking said:


> You could rotate among Fromm 4 star formulas for example. They are interchangeable so duration on each formula isn't so important. However, there is no escaping a transition period for the protein(s) Similar for NV, Horizon or Rotations.



What is a "transition period for a protein?"


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## DaViking (Sep 27, 2011)

Kibblelady said:


> What is a "transition period for a protein?"


It just means that there will be a (short) period where the digestive system is for example adapting to process fish instead of chicken.


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## BrownieM (Aug 30, 2010)

I think the whole problem is feeding only one protein to begin with!


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## Unosmom (May 3, 2009)

Acana, horizon legacy, back to basics, blue buffalo wilderness, and nutrisca


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## Kibblelady (Jul 13, 2012)

DaViking said:


> It just means that there will be a (short) period where the digestive system is for example adapting to process fish instead of chicken.





I guess I'm not understanding this? Why would a dog need to adjust to eating a protein? (I'm not being confrontive I am curious and I tend to ask questions.)


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## Kibblelady (Jul 13, 2012)

BrownieM said:


> I think the whole problem is feeding only one protein to begin with!


I think sometimes things like this are over simplified which most times simplifying is a good thing this is not. I tend to ramble on and that has nothing to do with your specific knowledge I just tend to be thorough in my posts.... Proteins are made up of amino acids. This is what they are broken down to in the stomach before going to the gut where they are digested and absorbed. Different animal proteins have different amino acids and different amounts of those amino acids. I have never read anything that points to protein from say a chicken being digested differently than that of protein from a cow so this whole topic is honestly losing me. Most kibbles have more than one protein, actually I have never seen one that hasn't. I know you are referring to animal protein but the amino acids found in plant proteins are the same it is just harder for a dog to assimilate them due to digestion issues. When processed however the amino acids in plant matter are available just not as readily as an animal protein and much is lost in bioavailability. As I said cooking/heating helps this. So, there are usually many different proteins available in a kibble and a host of amino acids. The kibble is constructed to provide the manufacturers called for amino acid profile that will be in line with the Nutritional Council's guidelines (most these days are in excess of the minimum of course.) So, I guess I am curious as to how digesting these different proteins, which are common to many foods, are different from product to product?


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## Sprocket (Oct 4, 2011)

WHY was my comment removed?


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## PDXdogmom (Jun 30, 2010)

Earthborn, NutriSource, and taking a wait-and-see attitude with the reformulated Acana grain free formulas before using them again.

I'm tending to feed one formula about 3-4 months before switching to another. However, I do add a variety of fresh foods from my kitchen with the dinner meal; so I think that promotes an adaptable gut flora.


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## BrownieM (Aug 30, 2010)

Kibblelady said:


> I think sometimes things like this are over simplified which most times simplifying is a good thing this is not. I tend to ramble on and that has nothing to do with your specific knowledge I just tend to be thorough in my posts.... Proteins are made up of amino acids. This is what they are broken down to in the stomach before going to the gut where they are digested and absorbed. Different animal proteins have different amino acids and different amounts of those amino acids. *I have never read anything that points to protein from say a chicken being digested differently than that of protein from a cow so this whole topic is honestly losing me. Most kibbles have more than one protein, actually I have never seen one that hasn't.* I know you are referring to animal protein but the amino acids found in plant proteins are the same it is just harder for a dog to assimilate them due to digestion issues. When processed however the amino acids in plant matter are available just not as readily as an animal protein and much is lost in bioavailability. As I said cooking/heating helps this. So, there are usually many different proteins available in a kibble and a host of amino acids. The kibble is constructed to provide the manufacturers called for amino acid profile that will be in line with the Nutritional Council's guidelines (most these days are in excess of the minimum of course.)* So, I guess I am curious as to how digesting these different proteins, which are common to many foods, are different from product to product?*


I'm with _you_, kibblelady.

I was just commenting based on this:


DaViking said:


> It just means that there will be a (short) period where the digestive system is for example adapting to process fish instead of chicken.


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## Celt (Dec 27, 2010)

DaViking said:


> It just means that there will be a (short) period where the digestive system is for example adapting to process fish instead of chicken.


This is why I don't feel it's a good thing to feed a dog one food "exclusively" for more than a couple of days (at most a week). I don't even believe in feeding foods from the same "brand" because often the ingredients have very little differences (if any) besides the meat/flavor, let alone the same protien. I know the way I feed is somewhat "strange" but I do believe that by feeding this way my dogs' systems are adapted to eating a variety of foods while being able to "extract" the nutrients effeciently and efectively. This way, I don't have to worry about transitioning or finding foods of similar make up for my pups. Their systems are already "primed" to digest anything I feed well without any upsets, be it raw, high quality kibble, homecooked, mediocre quality kibble, grain-free, grain "heavy" or canned. This is something I truely believe in and the way I encourage people to feed their pups. Although, I have noticed that more and more kibbles of similar "quality" and "style" (grain free/heavy) seem to have ingredients that are so similar as to make very little difference (in my rather undereducated opinion), one of the reasons I added in different "quality" of kibble.


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## Celt (Dec 27, 2010)

Kibblelady said:


> I think sometimes things like this are over simplified which most times simplifying is a good thing this is not. I tend to ramble on and that has nothing to do with your specific knowledge I just tend to be thorough in my posts.... Proteins are made up of amino acids. This is what they are broken down to in the stomach before going to the gut where they are digested and absorbed. Different animal proteins have different amino acids and different amounts of those amino acids. I have never read anything that points to protein from say a chicken being digested differently than that of protein from a cow so this whole topic is honestly losing me. Most kibbles have more than one protein, actually I have never seen one that hasn't. I know you are referring to animal protein but the amino acids found in plant proteins are the same it is just harder for a dog to assimilate them due to digestion issues. When processed however the amino acids in plant matter are available just not as readily as an animal protein and much is lost in bioavailability. As I said cooking/heating helps this. So, there are usually many different proteins available in a kibble and a host of amino acids. The kibble is constructed to provide the manufacturers called for amino acid profile that will be in line with the Nutritional Council's guidelines (most these days are in excess of the minimum of course.) So, I guess I am curious as to how digesting these different proteins, which are common to many foods, are different from product to product?


 I have to agree that the majority of protiens in a food are similar from one food to the next, especially in similar "quality" brands, but often the amounts of individual protien usually differ which can cause a need for a different digestive "style". (very simpilfied example) If you ate rice and beans only diet where the rice is the major component then switched to where beans became the major component, you could end up with some digestive discomfort. If you then switched to a diet that included fruit heavily, you're system would most likely be very upset with you. (note: the human digestive system is a bit more adaptable than most dogs' so the upsets could be very mild for most people). Even raw fed dogs ned to have protiens introduced slowly (for the most part) so that their systems become accustommed to the food they are being fed (the ultimate limited ingredients diet). Chicken is generally easier to digest (the reason why so many bland diets include it) than say beef. This is true of kibble as well, even though there might be some chicken in the mix, beef is the "major" component which would involve a different digestive flora. (getting off soap box now, stopping the babblefest)


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## DaViking (Sep 27, 2011)

BrownieM said:


> I think the whole problem is feeding only one protein to begin with!


What problem are you talking about?


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## BrownieM (Aug 30, 2010)

DaViking said:


> What problem are you talking about?


The "problem" of having to adjust to new proteins. I call it a problem because it is an issue that, out of 3 dogs, I don't have. I believe it is an artificially created problem...from feeding the same thing too often. Feed something new every meal, every day, a varied diet from the very beginning, and I bet this won't occur.


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## DaViking (Sep 27, 2011)

Kibblelady said:


> I guess I'm not understanding this? Why would a dog need to adjust to eating a protein? (I'm not being confrontive I am curious and I tend to ask questions.)


Because the bacteria present to process various ingredients changes depending on ingredients fed. When a new (or old but not present in a long time) ingredient is introduced bacteria to efficiently process this new chemical make up of the food is not present or not present in big enough numbers. The result is poor digestion for a period. The poor digestion does not have anything to do with allergies or an intolerance. It's simply an adjustment period. I don't know how to explain it differently.


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## DaViking (Sep 27, 2011)

BrownieM said:


> The "problem" of having to adjust to new proteins. I call it a problem because it is an issue that, out of 3 dogs, I don't have. I believe it is an artificially created problem...from feeding the same thing too often. Feed something new every meal, every day, a varied diet from the very beginning, and I bet this won't occur.


Of course it won't occur since the rapid rotation builds a capable intestinal bacteria flora. If you one day decided to introduce something completely unknown in sufficient quantities you too would experience upsets in your dogs in one form or another. I think you are over-dramatizing things a bit. There really isn't a problem. The problem I have pointed out in this thread is not the transition itself but rather that some do a steady and planned 4 to 6 week rotation between formulas that can be very different. That will in my opinion create a problem since the dog will be, more or less, in a constant state of bacteria adapt mode. I do not think doing that month after month, year after year is a good solution, unless the formulas actually are made to be interchangeable. As I said earlier in this thread, I am not going to waste time arguing against your way of rapidly varying/changing up foods since I don't have any strong feelings against it. It's the same as figuring out 4 to 6 different formulas with reasonable comparable profiles and rapidly rotate between those through out the week.


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## BrownieM (Aug 30, 2010)

DaViking said:


> I think you are over-dramatizing things a bit. There really isn't a problem. The problem I have pointed out in this thread is not the transition itself but rather that some do a steady and planned 4 to 6 week rotation between formulas that can be very different. *That will in my opinion create a problem since the dog will be, more or less, in a constant state of bacteria adapt mode. I do not think doing that month after month, year after year is a good solution, unless the formulas actually are made to be interchangeable.* As I said earlier in this thread, I am not going to waste time arguing against your way of rapidly varying/changing up foods since I don't have any strong feelings against it. It's the same as figuring out 4 to 6 different formulas with reasonable comparable profiles and rapidly rotate between those through out the week.


 You are not able to see my point and I find your reasoning and claims to be equally dramatic. 

The bolded part. I see this as a problem because it is a *man made situation.*

I mean shoot, what's a wolf gonna do when he can't catch the same exact type of prey every time he eats?

In *my* mind, if a dog is going to eat a commercial food, the most ideal situation is that by us feeding variety, the dog can handle anything.

The only reason dogs struggle to digest different "formulas" is because they are given one formula for an extended time to begin with. It is the case for many who feed a variety of kibbles that their dog can handle just about anything. Their digestive system has the capability of successfully digesting (without going into this "bacteria adapt mode" you speak of) different foods without adjustment.

But, I'm not an expert. Just someone whose dogs have iron digestive systems.  Probably from my feeding variety of whole fresh, raw foods, and throwing in some kibble here and there.


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## DaViking (Sep 27, 2011)

BrownieM said:


> and I find your reasoning and claims to be equally dramatic.


What parts of my reasoning and claims are dramatic? Please specify.


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## DaViking (Sep 27, 2011)

Kibblelady said:


> I think sometimes things like this are over simplified which most times simplifying is a good thing this is not. I tend to ramble on and that has nothing to do with your specific knowledge I just tend to be thorough in my posts.... Proteins are made up of amino acids. This is what they are broken down to in the stomach before going to the gut where they are digested and absorbed. Different animal proteins have different amino acids and different amounts of those amino acids. I have never read anything that points to protein from say a chicken being digested differently than that of protein from a cow so this whole topic is honestly losing me. Most kibbles have more than one protein, actually I have never seen one that hasn't. I know you are referring to animal protein but the amino acids found in plant proteins are the same it is just harder for a dog to assimilate them due to digestion issues. When processed however the amino acids in plant matter are available just not as readily as an animal protein and much is lost in bioavailability. As I said cooking/heating helps this. So, there are usually many different proteins available in a kibble and a host of amino acids. The kibble is constructed to provide the manufacturers called for amino acid profile that will be in line with the Nutritional Council's guidelines (most these days are in excess of the minimum of course.) So, I guess I am curious as to how digesting these different proteins, which are common to many foods, are different from product to product?


Not sure who it was directed at but I don't disagree with any of this. That's why many manufacturers now do offer interchangeable formulas. The main reason for digestive upsets is the (sometimes very) different overall chemical make up of two formulas. Mostly due to various functional ingredients, not necessarily macro nutrients. Switching from one amino acid profile to another is usually not a big issue. Some do however react and that was my only point really, not to completely overlook that some dogs can react going from one animal protein source to another, regardless of claims from manufacturers about 100% interchangeable formulas. Sometimes "protein and protein source" is used loosely here on dfc, not always accurately. Most transition between protein profiles with negligible effects.



Kibblelady said:


> Most kibbles have more than one protein, actually I have never seen one that hasn't.


You are correct if you include proteins from plants. And, of course you should include available amino acid profiles from plants. They form part of the whole just as all the other do but sometimes it's more fun to pay the dentist a visit than to go into certain discussions like that here on DFC. Hope that can change though, keep it up and welcome by the way :smile:


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## riddick4811 (Nov 2, 2011)

After research and trial and error we've narrowed our rotation down to Earthborn- Meadows Feast and Great Plains, Nutrisource grain free Lamb, and Acana Duck and Bartlett Pear. All my dogs can eat those foods and I don't have to feed multiple foods. We just went from Nutrisource to Acana and they've been on it for about a week and had no issues at all with transition. 

I rotate every bag or every other bag. I do add can food (mainly all meat ones or tripett), can mackeral, eggs, yogurt, cottage cheese, liver, heart, spleen, kidney and gizzards several times a week.


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## Javadoo (May 23, 2011)

I am a daily rotation feeder.
My girls get a different food for each meal.

Right now in my rotation:

Fromm Gamebird
Fromm Beef Frittata
Fromm Salmon Tunalini
Fromm Surf & Turf

Acana Grasslands
Acana Ranchlands

Earthborn Holistics Great Plains
Earthborn Holistics Coastal Catch
Earthborn Holistics Meadow Feast

I do not feed the same brand in consecutive meals...so they won't get Fromm Gamebird for breakfast then Fromm Beef frittata for dinner.
They don not get fed the same brand back to back.
More like:

Fromm Gamebird for breakfast
Earthborn Coastal Catch for dinner
Acana Ranchlands for breakfast the next day
Fromm Salmon Tunalini for dinner the next day.

I also don't feed the same protein back to back..so if they have a fish based food for breakfast then they will have a bison based food for dinner.
This works for us...no issues and my girls look and feel amazing.


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## SaharaNight Boxers (Jun 28, 2011)

Just curious, how big of bags of each food do you buy? And is it more expensive to rotate?


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## Javadoo (May 23, 2011)

SaharaNight Boxers said:


> Just curious, how big of bags of each food do you buy? And is it more expensive to rotate?


I buy the middle sized bags (usually 12-15 lbs).
Nope, it's not anymore expensive to rotate than it is to feed one particular kibble.

It actually saves alot of aggravation and stress...like with the TOTW recall. 
TOTW was one of the foods in my rotation. When it was recalled I simply dropped the food...and had at least 6 other foods that I could still feed.
Unlike others who fed only TOTW...when it was recalled they had to scramble to find a new food that worked for their dog and deal with the effects of a cold turkey switch.


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## SaharaNight Boxers (Jun 28, 2011)

Ok thanks! I had been wondering about the price of it.


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## StellaLucyDesi (Oct 29, 2008)

I like Javadoo's method (but I'm not using it right now, might try it though). Anyway, I rotate between the following kibbles: Fromm Gamebird and Salmon Tunalini (switch after each bag) and Pinnacle grain frees (switch after each bag). I have small dogs so I usually buy the 4-5 lb. bags, but sometimes the middle sized bag. I rotate daily the following canned foods: Fromm 4Star and Gold, Weruva and Simply Nourish. I still have some Mulligan Stew cans that I'll put in the mix, too. They'll also get cottage cheese and yogurt, pumpkin or sweet potato from time to time. This seems to be working great for my 4 dogs. With the canned food, I use one until it runs out then switch to a different brand/flavor.

Btw, another food made to rotate is Avoderm Revolving Menu. Haven't used it yet, but considering it.


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## Kibblelady (Jul 13, 2012)

DaViking said:


> Because the bacteria present to process various ingredients changes depending on ingredients fed. When a new (or old but not present in a long time) ingredient is introduced bacteria to efficiently process this new chemical make up of the food is not present or not present in big enough numbers. The result is poor digestion for a period. The poor digestion does not have anything to do with allergies or an intolerance. It's simply an adjustment period. I don't know how to explain it differently.



Then following that process if one was to rotate among similar foods with similar ingredients in close periods of time this would not apply correct? Where does this come from? I would like to read about it.


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## Kibblelady (Jul 13, 2012)

BrownieM said:


> I'm with _you_, kibblelady.
> 
> I was just commenting based on this:


I understand Brownie, I was just commenting on your comment I quoted (lol now this is getting confusing) I just comment on things I see that stand out to me. I appreciate that you also are questioning this.


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## Kibblelady (Jul 13, 2012)

Celt said:


> This is why I don't feel it's a good thing to feed a dog one food "exclusively" for more than a couple of days (at most a week). I don't even believe in feeding foods from the same "brand" because often the ingredients have very little differences (if any) besides the meat/flavor, let alone the same protien. I know the way I feed is somewhat "strange" but I do believe that by feeding this way my dogs' systems are adapted to eating a variety of foods while being able to "extract" the nutrients effeciently and efectively. This way, I don't have to worry about transitioning or finding foods of similar make up for my pups. Their systems are already "primed" to digest anything I feed well without any upsets, be it raw, high quality kibble, homecooked, mediocre quality kibble, grain-free, grain "heavy" or canned. This is something I truely believe in and the way I encourage people to feed their pups. Although, I have noticed that more and more kibbles of similar "quality" and "style" (grain free/heavy) seem to have ingredients that are so similar as to make very little difference (in my rather undereducated opinion), one of the reasons I added in different "quality" of kibble.



See I totally disagree on my experience and knowledge. When feeding kibble we all understand that they have difference formulations and can have very different make ups with vitamins and minerals...I just am old school in feeling that when deciding to feed a diet you should stick with it if it is working. Switching around that often IMO really can screw up the effort put into formulating the diet hence negating the whole point of purchasing that particular product. It is over time you see the results of feeding a particular diet. Results and problems seen nutritionally are not quick and result over time. I really do not see the point or benefit of constantly switching around like you mention.


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## Kibblelady (Jul 13, 2012)

Celt said:


> I have to agree that the majority of protiens in a food are similar from one food to the next, especially in similar "quality" brands, but often the amounts of individual protien usually differ which can cause a need for a different digestive "style". (very simpilfied example) If you ate rice and beans only diet where the rice is the major component then switched to where beans became the major component, you could end up with some digestive discomfort. If you then switched to a diet that included fruit heavily, you're system would most likely be very upset with you. (note: the human digestive system is a bit more adaptable than most dogs' so the upsets could be very mild for most people). Even raw fed dogs ned to have protiens introduced slowly (for the most part) so that their systems become accustommed to the food they are being fed (the ultimate limited ingredients diet). Chicken is generally easier to digest (the reason why so many bland diets include it) than say beef. This is true of kibble as well, even though there might be some chicken in the mix, beef is the "major" component which would involve a different digestive flora. (getting off soap box now, stopping the babblefest)


See this makes no sense at all to me. Their system just does not work like this. How can the raw feeders claim that a dog's digestive system is not changed from wolves but then I see something like this? Wolves and dogs are opportunistic feeders, their diet is meant to be varied and hodgepodge. Where has this very selective, delicate idea come from? Also beef is not harder to digest than chicken, years ago it was beef and white rice (fat drained) suggested for upset GI systems, not chicken. Are there studies involved here?


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## Kibblelady (Jul 13, 2012)

I just want to go on record and say I disagree with this whole "switching kibbles to enable dogs to be able to digest many proteins" thing. I have never seen any evidence of this whatsoever in all my experience with dogs. Who's theory is this?


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## DaViking (Sep 27, 2011)

Kibblelady said:


> Then following that process if one was to rotate among similar foods with similar ingredients in close periods of time this would not apply correct? Where does this come from? I would like to read about it.


Not sure I understand your question. "rotate among similar foods with similar ingredients in close periods of time this would not apply correct?" What would not apply? Upsets? Lesser nutritional uptake? You'd still have to do short transitions.
Is it optimal? No, I don't believe so and that's why I am with you, I do not rotate. I "looked into it" for a while but decided against it. I don't think rapidly switching foods is hurting dogs either so ppl who feed this way isn't going to get many arguments from me. I feed 1 formula I believe to be optimal and add and supplement depending on conditioning, activity and various training. I have had great results with this way for over 20 years and I haven't found anything new in terms of rotation that will change this. Never seen health problems related to this way of feeding nor do I care that much about a few digestive upsets during a transition period if I for some reason want or need to switch to another brand or formula.


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## BrownieM (Aug 30, 2010)

Okay, oh my, I see now that it is fundamentally impossible to see eye to eye with certain kibble feeders and their beliefs/claims on feeding. I knew I should have stayed in the raw forums!! No need to revert back to the dark ages. I have come such a long way since then!  You know, back when my dogs ate kibble, strictly, switching foods was not easy for them. But once I started feeding a varied raw diet, now they have iron stomachs and can eat anything. Things they've never had before. Exotic and novel proteins. Any kibble or canned food. A stick of butter (not on purpose!). Something I cooked up.

I'm sorry, but nobody is going to convince me that there is any benefit, other than to avoid digestive upset due to having been fed a manmade unvaried processed diet, in sticking with one formula of dog food. 

Back to the raw forums I go.


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## meggels (May 30, 2010)

DaViking said:


> Not sure I understand your question. "rotate among similar foods with similar ingredients in close periods of time this would not apply correct?" What would not apply? Upsets? Lesser nutritional uptake? You'd still have to do short transitions.
> Is it optimal? No, I don't believe so and that's why I am with you, I do not rotate. I "looked into it" for a while but decided against it. I don't think rapidly switching foods is hurting dogs either so ppl who feed this way isn't going to get many arguments from me. I feed 1 formula I believe to be optimal and add and supplement depending on conditioning, activity and various training. I have had great results with this way for over 20 years and I haven't found anything new in terms of rotation that will change this. Never seen health problems related to this way of feeding nor do I care that much about a few digestive upsets during a transition period if I for some reason want or need to switch to another brand or formula.



I'm curious what your menu looks like...or an example  I think you told me what food you feed, would be curious to hear it again as I now forget...


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## DaViking (Sep 27, 2011)

BrownieM said:


> Okay, oh my, I see now that it is fundamentally impossible to see eye to eye with certain kibble feeders and their beliefs/claims on feeding. I knew I should have stayed in the raw forums!! No need to revert back to the dark ages. I have come such a long way since then!  You know, back when my dogs ate kibble, strictly, switching foods was not easy for them. But once I started feeding a varied raw diet, now they have iron stomachs and can eat anything. Things they've never had before. Exotic and novel proteins. Any kibble or canned food. A stick of butter (not on purpose!). Something I cooked up.
> 
> I'm sorry, but nobody is going to convince me that there is any benefit, other than to avoid digestive upset due to having been fed a manmade unvaried processed diet, in sticking with one formula of dog food.
> 
> Back to the raw forums I go.



Why are you creating drama when there is none? Do you see DFC as a battleground over what is best?
This is exactly why this forum flows over of drama lately. Intentional confrontational jabs and rude emotionally charged language. What do you think would happen if kibble feeders all of a sudden started to return the favor and addressed all the outrageous claims and views being expressed multiple times per day by some in the raw section? That's all I have to say about that.


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## InkedMarie (Sep 9, 2011)

Kibblelady said:


> What is a "transition period for a protein?"


Cherri! You owe me an email, lady! Nice to see you here!


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## InkedMarie (Sep 9, 2011)

I've never rotated much with Boone...he had many many ear infections when a young pup and there wasn't much of a choice. My other dogs, for the most part, ate whatever. My two now get a pre made (turkey, beef or duck) and ThebHonest Kitchen (Embark which is turkey) and waiting for a box of Zeal (fish) to arrive. I'd like to start adding some canned soon.


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## InkedMarie (Sep 9, 2011)

Meg, I saw in the closed thread that you once looked at Brothers. I've never used it but am familiar with it. Not even talking about the owner but alot of people over on DFa are very happy with the results. One thing I like about it is apparently it's very fresh and when it's shipped to you, it's very close to the date it was made. I can't say for sure that's the truth but if it is, that's impressive for kibble.


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## Celt (Dec 27, 2010)

Kibblelady said:


> See this makes no sense at all to me. Their system just does not work like this. How can the raw feeders claim that a dog's digestive system is not changed from wolves but then I see something like this? Wolves and dogs are opportunistic feeders, their diet is meant to be varied and hodgepodge. Where has this very selective, delicate idea come from? Also beef is not harder to digest than chicken, years ago it was beef and white rice (fat drained) suggested for upset GI systems, not chicken. Are there studies involved here?


This is the way I see it. Dogs and wolves are both opportunistic feeders whose diets should be varied. Wolves very seldomly are able to eat the same food for weeks at a time. Dogs on the other hand are quite often fed the same exact food for years. This limited diet can predispose the digestive system to have difficulty digesting a new food (imo). Not that their system is delicate, after all it will adapt, but that a "sudden" dietary change can cause digestive upsets (usually just bouts of diarrhea).
As for feeding different kibbles negating feeding a specific brand, I don't see it. You will feed the entire amount of the brand just not at "one" time. So over time the dog will get the entire benefit of the bag. The difference is that by feeding more than one food, your dog will recieve a greater variety of minerals, etc because one formula may include an ingredient that another does not. I, personally, have never had it happen but I have seen/heard others who have had problems switching "cold turkey" from a brand that was exclusively fed for a long time to something new. Sure, most of the times it's just having to deal with diarrhea/soft stools for a brief time. Every creature whose diet is drastically changed will have some kind of upset just due to the system not being use to the new foods. I've never heard of beef being used for GI upset before. I've always heard to use chicken because it is very low fat and has less "flavor" than other meats. As for it being easier to digest, I don't remember where I learned about it but I remember that red meat takes a longer time to go through the digestive system than does white. I think chicken soup has been the mainstay for a "go to" food for those who are ill. I can't say if there are any studies done which is why I make sure to state that what I've said is my opinion and experience.


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## DaViking (Sep 27, 2011)

meggels said:


> I'm curious what your menu looks like...or an example  I think you told me what food you feed, would be curious to hear it again as I now forget...


Right now it's boring I'm afraid in terms of add-ins and supplements. Now we feed exclusively Nutram Active and add some sprats as a topper. I haven't done much additions and supplements since he's so young and we've been in an evaluation mode. When I had my Tollers I brought with me from Norway I made my own fishmeal from mackerel and supplemented with zinc on a regular basis. We will probably start with that again in not to long.


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## Shamrockmommy (Sep 10, 2009)

Feeding topics can sometimes be a sensitive subject. I am sure we all want to believe we are doing the best for our pets, and on that note, I do consider others' advice, however, ultimately, I look to my dogs to tell me how they're doing on a food.

So I have been rotating for as long as I've had dogs, typically every or every other large bag of food. I've fed just about everything over the years. With this current crew, I've been sticking to Acana Pacifica and Ranchlands, and most recently REALLY pleased with Fromm Four-Star grain free lines. The dogs are doing very well on this food- soft, full coats, small stool, no gas, good energy, nice breath, no ear or skin infections (one of my bichons can get yeasty). 

Along with the kibble I feed The Honest Kitchen, rotating Zeal (fish grain free) and Love (beef grain free) as this is what they all do best on, especially my sensitive bichon girl. THey get 75% dry and 25% THK mixed with water of course. Everyone is thriving this way. Have tried Fromm Surf N turf, Beef Fritatta, and Game Bird and so far I've liked the results of each of them on my dogs. 
Bi-weekly they get RMBs for oral health, altho rethinking this for my bichons who've broken several teeth just chewing chicken wings . 

Again, bottom line- look to your dog! If everything looks good, go with it! REmember that we forumites are the exception to the dog-owning population, most of which feed grocery store foods and whose dogs are doing ok anyway. <shrugs>


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