# So. Who really wants to talk about BARF feeding in this section?



## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

how many of you want to get in on the BARF gravy train, without popping an eye socket?

hmm?

it's not gone over really well before.....why would it go over now.

it deserves its own sub section...

even though it doesn't say so, Raw Feeding is generally filled with PMR feeders.

I believe that Dog Nutrition deserves another subsection just like Raw Feeding, but for BARF feeders or those who are experimenting.

For instance.

my pug has been losing hair for a year.

i was advised to start seeds and to feed certain veggies and fruits. 

i am a prey model raw feeder but i will do anything to get hair on bubba's belly and the rest of him.

The seeds, i believe are working.

but i don't really want to post about it here, because i think a sub section is warranted....because the balkan posters were so well received, weren't they?


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## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

Hm. I could have sworn there was a BARF forum for a couple of days.


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

there was.


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## DaneMama (Jun 27, 2008)

I think that BARF could happily fit in the raw section but the few that are openly opposed to it would have a fit. I don't agree with BARF unless someone has a dog like Duncan. But I don't have any issue with people talking about it in the raw section. There are plenty of raw boards that have the two schools of thought who peacefully exist without issue.

And I don't consider what Re is doing with Bubba to be true BARF feeding. I see it as adding a supplement to PMR.

I'm just tired of the division between members. Its getting old :deadhorse:


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## kady05 (Jul 29, 2011)

I know I'm newer here, but I'd be open minded to something like that. I'm always up for hearing what other people feed, how their dogs do on it, etc.


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## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

Well, i don't see it so much as a division but as knowing where to go. The dry and canned feeding has it's own forum. I think BARF is different than PMR even though they are both raw.

But in the end, I think most of us click on "TODAY'S POSTS" and go to whatever thread looks interesting. I really don't check to see what forum a thread is on before I go there. I guess when I post somewhere, I pick the forum.


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## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

And honestly, the folks from Eastern Europe seem more knowledgeable about feeding with veggies than anyone else on here. We got caught up in the do they need it vs. can they process it and that's why it went downhill. 

I'm not sure that won't happen again - I decided not to go into the dry dog food section any more because I don't want to be part of a problem. So in the end I guess I DO check the forums, at least recently.

If it doesn't cause a mess to have a separate forum, maybe it is a good idea,.


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## SusanotheGreatWarrior (Oct 8, 2011)

I'm still pretty new here but from what i've seen so far barf and prm feeding don't mix well. Although they both count as raw, members don't seem to see them that way. I'd really prefer the barf section to be separate from raw. 
And the division is a good thing for preventing arguments(no one would want a member whos against raw feeding to post in the raw section).


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

xellil said:


> And honestly, the folks from Eastern Europe seem more knowledgeable about feeding with veggies than anyone else on here. We got caught up in the do they need it vs. can they process it and that's why it went downhill.
> 
> I'm not sure that won't happen again - I decided not to go into the dry dog food section any more because I don't want to be part of a problem. So in the end I guess I DO check the forums, at least recently.
> 
> If it doesn't cause a mess to have a separate forum, maybe it is a good idea,.


and that is why it would be better for all of us if we had a separate forum.

we are a passionate bunch......and we believe what we believe....

i'm on a journey right now because i have a dog with a problem...and the last great fight we had, i believe it was 'dogs need carbs', i was very vocal in that they didn't.

but as i read all five million pages of fighting....i started to think about the common thread of that thread...and that is there is no empirical evidence either way.

so what does that mean?

we have genetic behaviour and adaptive behaviour and it behooves me to explore it.

not only that, but my pug is very closely related to the wolf as he is amongst the ancient breeds of dogs...

yet, i look at his stool and i will take pictures...i do not see coming out what went in. 

what does that mean? 

it might mean nothing.

it might mean they are able to digest vegetables and fruits.

and, if that's the case, then veggies and fruits provide different delivery systems for certain vitamins and minerals....

and, if it's not the case, i want to be able to say that i've explored all the avenues to give my dogs the best of the best.

if there is no fighting or arguing..about barf vs. pmr, then great. we can have discussions here...

but i've not seen that to be true...

and, like natalie, i'm down trodden at this point. it's getting really old to fight....and i can say that, because i'm one of the fighters.....i don't wanna fight.

i want to discuss without being distracted, as i'm sure the carbs and dogs thread wanted to discuss without me coming in and taking the thread down a path of processed foods, carbs, and dogs.... wish we had a sheepish grin here.


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## luvMyBRT (Mar 8, 2010)

I agree Re.

And while I also agree that BARF and PMR are feeding in a raw form, I feel that the logic behind BARF is closer to that of homecooked. Or maybe it is to me.....

I guess that I also thought that BARF and homecooked where okay in a category together because Duncan eats both....LOL. :tongue:

All in all, I am glad to atleast see the homecooked forum....


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## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

To me, the homecooked and recipes forums are very similar. Seems like one could be change to BARF and then the number of forums would be the same.


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## Noodlesmadison (Sep 18, 2011)

I like to see what people are feeding their dogs and WHY. I learn this way.
I think the anti-barf debate is a bit high school and it is beating a dead horse. :deadhorse:
I would rather not see it constantly. Whether it has it's own section or not, I would like to see what people are adding into the food and why, what problems the dog has/had, etc. 
It's informative.


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## CavePaws (Jan 25, 2011)

I honestly think PMR is going to need it's own section and BARF will. Perhaps, a combined Raw section would be for Barf and PMR to happily discuss things they actually have in common...Or advice that is relevant to both styles of raw feeding.


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## chowder (Sep 7, 2008)

xellil said:


> But in the end, I think most of us click on "TODAY'S POSTS" and go to whatever thread looks interesting. I really don't check to see what forum a thread is on before I go there. I guess when I post somewhere, I pick the forum.


I actually was reading a lot of the new posts for awhile before I even realized there was a whole new 'header' called BARF. I just click on the new posts and read them as they come up. 

I prefer to call it a new 'header' rather then a new forum. A new forum makes it sound like everyone is being kicked out of DFC entirely when really, it's just a new section being added. Kind of like going over to the butcher counter of the grocery store instead of getting your meat in the long bins section . Same store, different section. So, it doesn't really matter to me where you post the topics, as long as they all don't evolve into long, heated debates that are 1000 pages long with no actual useful information contained in them. 

I don't have enough hours in the day to wade through all of those and they really do nothing to add to my knowledge or the enjoyment of my day so I tend to just skip those threads entirely.


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## barneysmom2510 (Oct 12, 2011)

I am always interested to hear what people are feeding and the results they get. However sometimes when people are very passionate one way the other things can get out of hand. around here where I live the raw diet that is used mainly is bARF I have always used the pmr diet when I have gone raw. I would think a seperate sectio for eacjh would keep the peace better. That way if one side or the other is interested they can go to that section and learn if they don't want the info they do not have to look.


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## SpooOwner (Oct 1, 2010)

I'd like to hear more about BARF, or whatever raw + fruit and veg is being called these days.


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## JayJayisme (Aug 2, 2009)

I definitely think there should be a simple distinction between PMR and BARF for newcomers. That said, I leave the forum to ponder this concept...










:heh:


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## RachelsaurusRexU (Sep 4, 2010)

I think it would be great to have a BARF section here. Fact of the matter is that a lot of people choose to feed their dogs that way. Just as this forum has been an amazingly helpful tool to so many PMR feeders, it could potentially be very helpful for BARF newbs as well. I think we should have a designated PMR section and a designated BARF section, first and foremost to avoid all the obnoxious 23 page arguments (LOL), and second, like xelil said, so people know where to go to post their specific questions/stories/etc.


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## CorgiPaws (Mar 31, 2009)

I think that history has shown that BARF can not be discussed reasonably in the general raw section, because that section is so heavily dominated by PMR feeders in a way that means if you ask a question in the RAW section, you will get a PMR answer. If an answer that does not fall in line with PMR concepts, it is ripped apart and thrown around. 
Differing opinions are great and all... but it's not even fair when it's 100 to 1. 
For the BARF/homecooked community around here to grow, I think these people need a place to discuss this without being bullied away. Until a section is given to them, every BARF feeder that trots along will go through the process of posting, being ripped to shreds, and then retreating to lurk silently, or leaving DFC entirely. It's simply not fair. 

I think BARF and Homecooked could happily coexist under the same section because the worlds very often cross over: homecookers tossing a RMB, BARFers throwing in come cooked veggie glop..just about everyone I know that considers themselves one or the other do in fact break the "rules." Their foundations are very similar, and the recipes are also very in line with each other. 





JayJayisme said:


> I definitely think there should be a simple distinction between PMR and BARF for newcomers. That said, I leave the forum to ponder this concept...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I think that this very well sums up the attitude that makes the separation necessary. The fact that when a PMR feeder describes PMR it is done so in a way that portrays it to be the one and only ideal way to feed a dog, and that all other ways are wrong, wrong, wrong. Now, whether or not this is true, fact of the matter is there is simply NO HARD EVIDENCE to rule out either side of the fence, and the ONLY thing this achieves is making anyone who does things differently out to be wrong, inferior, and dumb. "here's the section for people feeding dogs what they're supposed to eat, and those other sections are for people not feeding dogs what they're supposed to eat." 

...and we're all supposed to get along??

Bleh, I'm going back on my vacation now. It' a refreshing break from this nonsense.

ETA: I feel that I can say with unwavering confidence that PMR is better for MY dogs than kibble, because I have fed both and seen firsthand the differnce. I have NOT fed BARF or homecooked. I would actually be intersted in giving it a shot and seeing the difference, and perhaps there will he a "Raw poop vs. Homecooked poop"


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## DaneMama (Jun 27, 2008)

RachelsaurusRexU said:


> I think we should have a designated PMR section and a designated BARF section, first and foremost to avoid all the obnoxious 23 page arguments (LOL), and second, like xelil said, so people know where to go to post their specific questions/stories/etc.


I can personally say that I DON'T want every BARF thread to turn into a debate. Especially if someone just has a question or concern or just wants their question answered ABOUT BARF feeding...these topics shouldn't be topics for debate, just information shared between like minded people. 

Yes, adding another forum will "add" to our duties here on DFC, but I can honestly say that patrolling a bunch of info-seeking-threads that turn into 23 page debates creates MORE work for us mods, not to mention it just brings the integrity of these boards down. While the occasional heated debate is good and fun, not every post should be just because it can. 

If anything adding a BARF subforum will increase traffic, increase stickiness, increase member numbers, increase thread/post numbers, increase GOOD information being exchanged, increase member satisfaction, etc, etc etc. 

I know for a fact why these boards are PMR centered. Its mostly because of us core members do feed PMR ourselves- why would we give advice on something we don't know much about? People post up, ask questions and we give them PMR answers, because that's what we do and believe in. Would it be awesome to have a similar BARF feeding forum here for those interested? ABSO-FREAKING-LUTELY!!! 

To me, the more the merrier....the more people we can get switched to better ways of feeding our dogs the better. I'm not about to support turning BARF feeders away, especially those who are well versed in the practice. We need good BARF mentors here....lets keep those folks around for when this new BARF feeding subforum starts up :thumb:


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## RachelsaurusRexU (Sep 4, 2010)

Where did those Balkans go?!


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## JayJayisme (Aug 2, 2009)

PuppyPaws said:


> I think that this very well sums up the attitude that makes the separation necessary. The fact that when a PMR feeder describes PMR it is done so in a way that portrays it to be the one and only ideal way to feed a dog, and that all other ways are wrong, wrong, wrong. Now, whether or not this is true, fact of the matter is there is simply NO HARD EVIDENCE to rule out either side of the fence, and the ONLY thing this achieves is making anyone who does things differently out to be wrong, inferior, and dumb. "here's the section for people feeding dogs what they're supposed to eat, and those other sections are for people not feeding dogs what they're supposed to eat."


You must not have a sense of humor. My "concept" was tongue-in-cheek.

In any case, I don't think it's fair to single out the PMR feeders as the only group with "righteous" attitudes. Plenty of BARFers do as well. It's not so much a disagreement on the nuances of the diet's ingredients, as it is a disagreement on the fundamental issue of whether a dog is a carnivore or not. That is always the root of the problem in these arguments. It seems to me that most PMR feeders absolutely believe that dogs are carnivores and BARFers believe something else, or have no idea or opinion on it. I don't think anyone cares if you feed your dog a carrot or some spinach now and then. But to try to say carrots, or spinach, or corn are absolutely healthy, or worse, *necessary*, without being able to back that claim up, is where the problems start. That kind of thinking is regarded with skepticism by PMR feeders mostly because that is the mantra of the commercial dog food industry, the very feeding principles we are trying to avoid. It's the proverbial "slippery slope".

I think all raw feeders are, by nature, pretty open minded. But if you come on here and tell me dogs are omnivores because wolves like to eat blueberries now and then,or because they allegedly eat the stomach contents of their prey, well, you are going to get some backlash on that. It's HOW you address the questions and disagreements that determines how civilized (or not) this board is going to be. From where I sit, there are plenty of BARFers here who have made their case and don't get any grief from the PMR feeders. And then there are those BARFers who seem to relish the provocation of the PMR camp. If you think all raw feeders are going to run around holding hands and farting rainbows when the health and well being of "mans best friend" is at stake, you are living in a vacuum.


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## CorgiPaws (Mar 31, 2009)

JayJayisme said:


> You must not have a sense of humor. My "concept" was tongue-in-cheek.
> 
> In any case, I don't think it's fair to single out the PMR feeders as the only group with "righteous" attitudes. Plenty of BARFers do as well. It's not so much a disagreement on the nuances of the diet's ingredients, as it is a disagreement on the fundamental issue of whether a dog is a carnivore or not. That is always the root of the problem in these arguments. It seems to me that most PMR feeders absolutely believe that dogs are carnivores and BARFers believe something else, or have no idea or opinion on it. I don't think anyone cares if you feed your dog a carrot or some spinach now and then. But to try to say carrots, or spinach, or corn are absolutely healthy, or worse, *necessary*, without being able to back that claim up, is where the problems start. That kind of thinking is regarded with skepticism by PMR feeders mostly because that is the mantra of the commercial dog food industry, the very feeding principles we are trying to avoid. It's the proverbial "slippery slope".
> 
> I think all raw feeders are, by nature, pretty open minded. But if you come on here and tell me dogs are omnivores because wolves like to eat blueberries now and then,or because they allegedly eat the stomach contents of their prey, well, you are going to get some backlash on that. It's HOW you address the questions and disagreements that determines how civilized (or not) this board is going to be. From where I sit, there are plenty of BARFers here who have made their case and don't get any grief from the PMR feeders. And then there are those BARFers who seem to relish the provocation of the PMR camp. If you think all raw feeders are going to run around holding hands and farting rainbows when the health and well being of "mans best friend" is at stake, you are living in a vacuum.


I have a fine sense of humor, thank you. 
My point was that the mere base of PMR (it being biologically appropriate, by our way of thinking) come across as incredibly rude. One rave per PMR feeder on here, and a single BARFer is going to have a hundred people on them telling them they're wrong. While it is almost never the intent of PMR feeders to come across that way, when the scale is SO tipped in favor of PMR feeders... it just happens, and it's not necessarily anyone's fault. 

I "get" your picture. Shoot, I AGREE with your picture! But for someone who does NOT believe in raw, it kinda makes us all looks like jerks. 

I don't think anyone has to agree on the carnivore/omnivore issue. I think that giving the carnivore convinced group a friendly place to chat, and the omnivore convinced group a friendly place... we will eliminate the issue of the debate being beaten to death, with the end result only being new members chased off when they don't need to be. That's all.


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## DaneMama (Jun 27, 2008)

JayJayisme said:


> In any case, I don't think it's fair to single out the PMR feeders as the only group with "righteous" attitudes. Plenty of BARFers do as well. It's not so much a disagreement on the nuances of the diet's ingredients, as it is a disagreement on the fundamental issue of whether a dog is a carnivore or not. That is always the root of the problem in these arguments. It seems to me that most PMR feeders absolutely believe that dogs are carnivores and BARFers believe something else, or have no idea or opinion on it. I don't think anyone cares if you feed your dog a carrot or some spinach now and then. But to try to say carrots, or spinach, or corn are absolutely healthy, or worse, *necessary*, without being able to back that claim up, is where the problems start. That kind of thinking is regarded with skepticism by PMR feeders mostly because that is the mantra of the commercial dog food industry, the very feeding principles we are trying to avoid. It's the proverbial "slippery slope".
> 
> I think all raw feeders are, by nature, pretty open minded. But if you come on here and tell me dogs are omnivores because wolves like to eat blueberries now and then,or because they allegedly eat the stomach contents of their prey, well, you are going to get some backlash on that. It's HOW you address the questions and disagreements that determines how civilized (or not) this board is going to be. From where I sit, there are plenty of BARFers here who have made their case and don't get any grief from the PMR feeders. And then there are those BARFers who seem to relish the provocation of the PMR camp. If you think all raw feeders are going to run around holding hands and farting rainbows when the health and well being of "mans best friend" is at stake, you are living in a vacuum.


Honestly I think a completely separate BARF forum will eliminate all threads such as this one going in the direction that your post is taking it. While I agree with your side of the omnivore/carnivore debate, not every thread that people want to post should be a debate. The fact lies in that NOT everyone believes dogs are carnivores, or that people think that the concept of "carnivore" includes that of eating stomach contents of prey animals, etc. THAT is a simple fact. And as long as that is the case, we should have two places for both schools of thought can exist without constant tension because not much learning happens when there is tension from opposing views. People tend to shut down when they feel they're wrong for what they believe and practice. If anything, a BARF section might support the PMR side of things for those interested, because people will switch to BARF and find out that its not what they thought, didn't find the results they were looking for, etc. And maybe it wont because PMR people will switch to BARF, find that their dogs do better and become newly passionate about BARF instead. 

You know how nervous most PMR newbs are, about doing things right, how conflicted they are with the various "myths" of raw, etc? And then all of those worries are just dispelled like they were never there once the benefits of the switch are as plain as day. From that moment forth, MOST people are convinced there is no better way to feed their dogs and wont ever do anything but PMR. I'm sure the same happens for BARFers. Their beliefs and "facts" are so concrete that nothing us PMR feeders say will convince them otherwise. And honestly, we shouldn't have to because if their dogs are thriving...who are we to try and change it just because of how we think?


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## gorge77 (May 13, 2011)

I would like to add my 2 cents worth of thoughts here.

I was a barf feeder for almost 3 years & I had always doubt the method of PMR feeding. BARF, in my personal opinion, is modeled after the commercial pet food recipes that are concocted by the pet food manufacturers, which is mainly about "BALANCE". Barf talks about balanced amount of meats, organs, bones, vegetables, fruits & supplements. They are divided into % & nutritional analysis (now does that ring a bell?) but using raw ingredients. It tries hard to get a balance of benefits from raw feeding & the pet food recipes.

But what struck me is that, BARF presents zero dental benefits. There was obviously no need for any tearing of meats & spending time working on a piece of bone. For BARF, the dog simply gobbles down their food. 

So I started to include some raw meaty bones into their diet. And their teeth look great.

BARF is really alot of prep work & sometimes, owners tend to overdose, which backfires. And similarly to the pet foods industry, BARF talks about BALANCE all the time, which brings me to this question: who defined or came up with a balanced nutritional recipes for the dogs anyway?

So after 3 years of BARF, I switched my dogs to PMR and I don't see much changes in their overall physical health. That being said, they are due for their annual blood test next Jan so I will know if there's any significant change to their results, which most likely could be due to the change in diet.

To me, there is no perfect diet. PMR or BARF - I believe each has their own benefits & we should always try to adapt / change it to suit a dog's condition. And whether it's PMR or BARF, they still beat any kinds of commercial pet foods.


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## JayJayisme (Aug 2, 2009)

PuppyPaws said:


> I don't think anyone has to agree on the carnivore/omnivore issue. I think that giving the carnivore convinced group a friendly place to chat, and the omnivore convinced group a friendly place... we will eliminate the issue of the debate being beaten to death, with the end result only being new members chased off when they don't need to be. That's all.


Well Linsey, THIS we can agree on...finally. :wink:


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

i will respectfully disagree, jay.

after what i've been involved in, seen you be involved in and watched debates turn into ugly arguments, 

linsey, barf feeders believe in raw. it's a different way of feeding raw. i'm not even a barf feeder yet and i may never be one, but i'm curious and think a forum which is a gathering place to discuss ideas should have a section, as you also believe, that is separate.

and, as you and natalie believes, which i agree with....newbies who want to feed pmr are going to be confused.....

and what if they want to feed barf. is that why there is no barf section? 

and i think that kibble feeders are righteous, pmr feeders are righteous, the list on yahoo is righteous....and well, i figure barf feeders and homecooked feeders are probably as righteous.

i figure by this time i would be a core poster and a righteous pmr feeder who waded through so many pages of arguments, that it got me thinking.

for out of the ashes, she paraphrased, the phoenix rises.

and with that, poetic license stopped....Re got curious and went over to a balkan discussion group plus she started to read and ponder.

if, everytime, i decide or someone decides to ponder i would possibly be met with long paragraphs about david mech and archeologists and all these people who will tell me about how pmr is the way and the light and here's why.

but, i already know that, having been taught by the best of the best....having read the books and the articles, having studied the science that is available...and wants to experiment.

those who feed pmr now.....many of them started out with barf, bill included....that he did it in such a way as to cause his dogs diarrhea means it is possible there was a better way to do this.

that aside, because it is meaningless but invites argument....a statement such as the one above will possibly start a fire, be it intended or not.

gorge -- i believe barf feeding goes back further than commercial pet food feeding, since the europeans have been doing it for a very long time...and the brits used to feed their hunting dogs sour milk with bread soaked....
it's more likely dogs scrounged for mice and rabbits and whatever and were fed scraps in exchange for guarding or herding or whatever they did for the farmer or the hunter.

i see no reason for any of us not to experiment and constantly try to learn and evolve our thinking.......and i still live in the camp of raw feeders.....i have studied the physiology of dogs and i have to wonder how much adaptation is involved....over the past 14,000 years....

i personally don't think this is such a big deal.

dog nutrition has its sub sections...marketing aside, although natalie is absolutely right...it might bring in more posters, etc....

to me, there is absolutely no reason not to have a BARF/Home Cooked or ALTERNATIVE FEEDING section. 

dry and canned
raw feeding
dog food ingredients
dog food recipes
homecooked alternatives? it doesn't even make sense, this title.

so why not leave it the way it was. a new subsection is all that is needed, as it is a form of raw feeding. 

think of the potential members this forum could have. 

i have nothing further to say on this subject, other than i have written to the admin from the 'contact us'.


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## luvMyBRT (Mar 8, 2010)

Prey Model Raw Diet
BARF Diet 
Homecooked Diet and Recipes

There.....now everyone can have a place.

I'd love to have a place to post about Duncan's diet. I've just never posted much about it or asked questions because there never really was a place to. I know if I DID post about it the PMR feeders would cut me some slack because they knew my situation, but it would be nice to have a designated place for BARF feeders to talk and share. :smile:


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## leilaquinn (Sep 7, 2011)

I am new to raw feeding overall. I definitely read a lot about barf and pmr before deciding, but reading from the outside is different than trying things. the fact that this was the board recomended to me by members of another forum when I actually was desiding to really switch further swayed me to pmr, and i have been enjoying it and it makes a lot of sense to me. I was really suprised to see such a huge division, compared with most of what people feed their dogs, someone who feeds raw meat, bones and organs; and someone who feeds raw meat, bones, organs, yogurt and berries, I would think would be on the same side of the hope of feedings dogs better. I think any time anyone is so sure that they're right that they don't even consider the benefits of ANYTHING else, well I think they will miss out on some stuff. People can't even figure out or agree on what's best for us to eat, and we are studying it all the time (though comercial interests of course are a factor there as well). I am open to adding some other ingredients to Luigi's diet, i tend to agree that he doesn't NEED them, but i also love to see him enjoy his food and all the new variety he's getting since switching from kibble, I have no problem giving him anything that will stimulate his senses, interest him, etc. as long as they in no way are a detriment to his health. I gave him a spoonfull of sour cream last night because i was cooking with it and he looked like his eyes were going to pop out he was so excited. I think that really only baby cows are desighned to eat cow's milk, and was even vegan at one time based partly on that logic. I now feel like if adding dairy to smashed cauliflower (sp?) gets me over my craving for macaroni and cheese, then why not. Maybe it is just the cook in me, I would love to add things to a bowl with a chicken quarter in it, mostly just so he has a different experience than he did the last time he had a chicken quarter for dinner. I'm rambling, but What I'm trying to say is I would love to read more about ALL kinds of raw diets, and pick and choose what makes sense to me, and if having to read the same long arguments repetedly can be avoided by an extra section then why not?


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## HappyPuppy (Sep 26, 2011)

(bear in mind I just came over from the closed thread) I'm still new but the politics are very apparent 'round here. I'm pretty shocked at the parochialness of many here - I had to stop reading 'the other thread' around pg 22 because of JayJasmine's pure aggressiveness, dangit. (< geez, you really think those 'europeans' stormed in here just to tell you how it is?!?" This site should be called only "PMR" due to the views forced on others. If not, it should be a more neutral place FOR DISCUSSION. I used to feed veggie mash and mainly stopped due to laziness. I certainly chuck my dog a piece of banana or a raw carrot to chew on - even leftover COOKED veggies and I have even taught her the word 'cheese'. Forums often take on 'a disposition' and anyone new or different gets run off - like journalists, I think in general that mods should also be more neutral (that's why I hate Jeraldo Rivera with a passion - and also Nancy Grace - they badger and steer everyone into saying what THEY want to hear.... ) There is no harm in discussion, and if/since there is a kibble subforum, there should also defo be a BARF subforum (with disclaimers if you feel the need to do that). I don't even want to convert to 'barf' but I would like to read about how people do it -- I've certainly spent some time in the kibble forum for the info.

Oh - there it is.....


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

leila and happy puppy...

i have a feeling that amongst barf feeders....you'll find differences....

i know that i won't be feeding dairy to my dogs nor will they get grains.

the only cooked protein they will get is wild caught pacific northwest salmon. and it will be lightly poached and they will get the fluid. but then i can sleep at night because i killed the parasites.

and now that there is a barf forum, i will stop posting in this thread about things that are not pmr.


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## JayJayisme (Aug 2, 2009)

HappyPuppy said:


> This site should be called only "PMR" due to the views forced on others.


Since you are new here, what you might not realize is that for all intents and purposes, the raw forum here pretty much was a PMR forum. There were few to no BARFers for a long time there so, in effect, it *was* a PMR forum. There are plenty of BARF discussion groups on the 'Net, and few PMR forums, so for us PMR people, this was a very unique place where we felt free to openly discuss PMR feeding without having to justify or defend it, thereby being able to focus on helping people succeed with it. 

So yes, every time a different ideology about raw feeding begins to surface in this forum, the PMR feeders simply start asking questions about *why* BARFers believe what they believe, and *where* they got their information. It's not that PMR followers have a closed mind. It's just that we are only interested in the logic behind feeding decisions, not the feelings about it. If people get their tail feather all bent over it, well, welcome to what PMR feeders have to endure on almost every other raw feeding forum out there. It's no secret that you have to have thick skin around here. It has been that way for as long as I can remember and at first I was put off by it, but now I realize it has a purpose. 

And no, I don't think "those 'europeans' stormed in here just to tell us how it is." I think they came here to disrupt the forum, and that's it. But I digress.

You all have your own forum now so this discussion is moot. Enjoy yourselves there but if things don't quite work out with BARF, please don't blame raw feeding on a whole. There is another way and we'll be happy to introduce you to it and help you succeed with it. Don't forget where we are. :wink:


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## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

i was also told by my trainer not to use regular size tennis balls for big dogs because if they get slimy they can actually lodge in their throat.


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## DoglovingSenior (Jun 26, 2011)

Whoever made the comment about PMR feeders, having tried BARF is correct.  MANY of us began with BARF-I did not know back in 98-99 that there was such a thing as PMR. I still have my Billinghurst book! There will be differences among BARF feeders-if I remember correctly, Ian did not believe in cooking the food, that this actually accelerated the ageing process. He did not believe in grains or starchy foods-so, there definitely are differences.
I went from Kibble to raw (BARF), I religiously ground my veggies on a daily basis. I did not notice any harm to my dogs-as I have stated, in that 1 1/2 yr. period, there were no more hotspots! . I gave them raw meaty bones but on BARF, I did not get the dental benefits that I have on PMR. Bottom line, we must all do what we think is best for our dogs-I will miss some of you on the Raw Feeding threads! Bon Chance!!!


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## luvMyBRT (Mar 8, 2010)

I'll bounce back and forth..... :tongue:

While Duncan has to eat a barf diet, Lucky is still fed a PMR diet and doing wonderful. I occasionally give her a tiny spoonful of Duncan's veggie puree or a slice of banana....just because she likes it and I like to spoil my old girl. But, all in all, at 12 years old Lucky is thriving on PMR and I couldn't be happier.

So I'd put money on PMR adding years to Lucky's life and BARF saving Duncan's.

I've got the best of both worlds. eace:


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## Herzo (Feb 5, 2011)

Good Lord what did I miss? I came on a couple days ago and there was a home cooked and Barf section then it changed, I can't remember to what, and now this, What is going on. I thought it was a good idea to have it with the home cooked it worked well. Now we have a big debate again. I think, if you moderators want it and can handle it, it would be a good thing. But I think it should be kept separate, if anyone cares.

I don't belong to any Barf forums so I guess I don't know if they can be nasty. But I sure did hate to see that person that made the video about Barf made to feel bad and leave. Can't remember the name. I guess I go with the mind set that Barf, home cooked or even good quality kibble are fed that is a good thing, it's a step up from so many people I know. So I'm for it being separate. It's much to different and I like that this forum has a big PMR base.


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## CorgiPaws (Mar 31, 2009)

JayJayisme said:


> Since you are new here, what you might not realize is that for all intents and purposes, the raw forum here pretty much was a PMR forum. There were few to no BARFers for a long time there so, in effect, it *was* a PMR forum. There are plenty of BARF discussion groups on the 'Net, and few PMR forums, so for us PMR people, this was a very unique place where we felt free to openly discuss PMR feeding without having to justify or defend it, thereby being able to focus on helping people succeed with it.
> 
> So yes, every time a different ideology about raw feeding begins to surface in this forum, the PMR feeders simply start asking questions about *why* BARFers believe what they believe, and *where* they got their information. It's not that PMR followers have a closed mind. It's just that we are only interested in the logic behind feeding decisions, not the feelings about it. If people get their tail feather all bent over it, well, welcome to what PMR feeders have to endure on almost every other raw feeding forum out there. It's no secret that you have to have thick skin around here. It has been that way for as long as I can remember and at first I was put off by it, but now I realize it has a purpose.
> 
> ...


Ahh, there's that voice of reason I was missing!! :tongue:

I personally thought the BARF and homecooked forums would have meshed very well together, because the two worlds seem to cross over so much, but I'm happy to see it at least the way it is!


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

> This site should be called only "PMR" due to the views forced on others.


i don't know how i missed this.....happy puppy....this is, in my opinion, one of the most gentle sections of a forum i've ever seen.

i never felt forced to feed or not feed anything.....

it's a shame you've got this opinion. i hope we can change it over time.


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

DoglovingSenior said:


> Whoever made the comment about PMR feeders, having tried BARF is correct.  MANY of us began with BARF-I did not know back in 98-99 that there was such a thing as PMR. I still have my Billinghurst book! There will be differences among BARF feeders-if I remember correctly, Ian did not believe in cooking the food, that this actually accelerated the ageing process. He did not believe in grains or starchy foods-so, there definitely are differences.
> I went from Kibble to raw (BARF), I religiously ground my veggies on a daily basis. I did not notice any harm to my dogs-as I have stated, in that 1 1/2 yr. period, there were no more hotspots! . I gave them raw meaty bones but on BARF, I did not get the dental benefits that I have on PMR. Bottom line, we must all do what we think is best for our dogs-I will miss some of you on the Raw Feeding threads! Bon Chance!!!


and i went from kibble to home cooking to pmr. 

i wish i lived on a little bit of acreage because man, i'd love to feed whole prey....

i have a bald dog. that means something is missing. or he's got male pattern baldness. 

i'm not going to be labeled. my dogs eat raw proteins/bone/organs.

that my dogs get some plant materials is a very small part of an experimental diet to see if i can get my dogs to grow hair, since i cannot feed the entire animal....and i have to try to find out if he's missing something that i cannot give him....

on the off chance that he's not going bald because he's got some genetic anomaly.....then i'll try with diet, just as sara has to feed duncan a barf diet because of his condition....


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## Dude and Bucks Mamma (May 14, 2011)

I don't even like reading whole threads anymore so I am posting based on the original post. 

I think it definitely needs to be separated. It's no secret that most of us are passionate PMR people and every time someone who comes in who doesn't feed PMR we chase them away. I think we tend to forget that this is a general raw feeding section not a PMR section. I thought I saw someone say that they don't want every BARF thread to turn into an argument... We share this board with kibble feeders... If we can share this forum with people who feed what many of us refer to as "death nuggets" why wouldn't we be able to share it with BARFers who are CLEARLY feeding a diet that is far superior to kibble?

I think they need to be redefined as "PMR" and "BARF" sections. They are vastly different in concept and we PMR feeders should allow them to have a "safe" place to discuss their diet of choice. 

I am in no way for BARF (unless you have a Duncan dog) but BARFers are not for PMR. Just like we don't like kibble... I guess what I am getting at is that it is silly to fight with people who, while they may not feed our ideal diet, are feeding something that is so much better kibble.


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## Sapphire-Light (Aug 8, 2010)

What's the difference between BARF and prey model?  I forgot about it :redface:


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## hmbutler (Aug 4, 2011)

Sapphire-Light said:


> What's the difference between BARF and prey model?  I forgot about it :redface:


Short version of the explanation - BARF includes vegetables, some carbs and stuff too I think. PMR is purely raw meat, bones and organs 

:thumb:


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