# is 30 percent protein too much?



## lovemydogsalways (Mar 4, 2012)

Just reading around on other forums after i googled Annamaet. Saw a post about anything above 26% being too much for a non working dog and your dog will just excrete it. Does that put more strain on kidneys when they excrete it? Emma is in the off season right now and patch is pretty non active except for fetch and running with the bike occasionally and regular walks. Right now they are eating a 30/14 food. Just trying to get more insight on it. Am I possibly harming my dogs?


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## NutroGeoff (May 15, 2013)

I generally don't recommend the Nutro formula that has the 30% protein for dogs that aren't working or herding or something that is going to really burn off all of that protein. When your dog is working hard and burning that off it would be an excellent formula for them however I generally recommend staying off of the very hugh protein foods when they aren't on season.


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## 1605 (May 27, 2009)

lovemydogsalways said:


> Just reading around on other forums after i googled Annamaet. Saw a post about anything above 26% being too much for a non working dog and your dog will just excrete it. Does that put more strain on kidneys when they excrete it? Emma is in the off season right now and patch is pretty non active except for fetch and running with the bike occasionally and regular walks. Right now they are eating a 30/14 food. Just trying to get more insight on it. Am I possibly harming my dogs?


I think it all depends on how active your dogs are vs "the norm". Even now during the "off season", our GSPs are not couch potatoes: we have to run them at least every other day for a minimum of 30 minutes to keep them happy. (We just do it first thing in the morning, &/or make sure they are well hydrated.) 

But by the end of next month we will be gearing up for the Field Season, which starts in here Oct and runs almost through to March/April. So they will go from 10/11 oz twice a day of EVO to 12+, depending on how much of the day is in the field. Plus we will add things like fish, pork, or chicken to their food.

IOW, I really think it depends on the dog's basic metabolism and energy output: you can switch food or you can tailor the amount of food you are giving to account for required protein & calories.

JMHO,


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## InkedMarie (Sep 9, 2011)

I just saw a video where a vet claimed tht 18-20% (I believe that was the amounts) are all dogs need; I think she is nuts. She my be a vet but my research shows otherwise, especially or older dogs.


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## Celt (Dec 27, 2010)

Imo, it really depends on your dog. Some dogs, even without being "super active", just "need" more to stay fit.


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## Dr Dolittle (Aug 2, 2013)

Fat provides more than twice the energy of carbs or protein so it would make sense to adjust the fat according to the caloric needs. As American pet owners food companies have convinced us that high energy needs should be met with protein. Well, sounds good but as someone mentioned already, most dogs need much less than we give them in processed foods. Think about it. the dog gets enough amino acids for a variety of needs. Once it has enough it has to then convert that protein to fat and will store it if the dog doesn't need it. thus, many overweight dogs! The problem is this process can be taxing on the dog, especially as they age. Why not adjust the protein to meet that need, and adjust the fat to meet the energy requirement? makes sense! That is why I cringe when I see high energy foods that are also for puppies. I want to provide the energy but not the high levels of everything else that my adult dog shouldn't get. And as someone mentioned, ledger dogs need protein too but higher quality like eggs and such to provide all the amino acids but less nitrogen waste to tax the kidneys. As with any food, raw or kibble, I would do blood work once a year on a dog over 7 to make sure those kidneys are great and don't need a diet change!


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## mayayoung (May 24, 2015)

no, no, no and no. You've got it aaaalllllllll wrong. Dogs need high protein foods. My dog is probably the most un-active dog in the planet, and she eats a 34% crude protein food and thrives on it. Unless there is a specific medical reason for the dog to have a low protein diet, feed them a high protein diet. In fact, I won't feed my dog a food that has less than 30% protein, and even 30% seems like too little for me.


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## Dr Dolittle (Aug 2, 2013)

Maya, I will ask you the same thing I would ask a nutritionist claiming something like that. Show me the clinical evidence of such a claim. I refer to my post back in Aug 2013. We of course, are simplifing this a bit. The quality of the meat sources would deliver either a lower or excessive mineral content. That would be more important as the dog ages. High protein, excessive mineral levels, etc do not CAUSE disease, but if that dos is predisposed to kidney issues, a common old age issue, or urinary stones, at any age, controlling these levels to optimum levels just makes sense. Protein deficiencies would be very easy to document and I know at least a few nutritionists that would love to become rock stars by showing dogs need 30% protein! They haven't and I believe they never will.


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## mayayoung (May 24, 2015)

well, dogs do alright on lower protein diets, and i know that because my dog survived on a 26% protein food before i switched her food. As for proof, studies have shown that dog's stomachs have only changed 0.2%. That suggests that they are carnivores (im not sure, but i positive that studies have also shown that dogs indeed are carnivores). In my opinion, it makes most sense to give a high protein diet to carnivores. A recent trip to the vet shows she is in perfect health. Therefore, i will continue to feed my dog a high protein diet.

Disclaimer: I am not forcing my opinion on anyone! Feed whatever you think is suitable for your dog!


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## Georgiapeach (Jan 24, 2011)

It depends on the dog, IMO. All the boxers I've had over the years couldn't tolerate high protein kibbles, and did much better on kibbles under 30%. Higher protein kibbles caused very loose poo in my boxers. My little dogs do fine on higher protein kibbles. In general, I don't think the average house pet needs a high protein kibble.


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## Dr Dolittle (Aug 2, 2013)

hey Maya, I appreciate your disclaimer but we are all just voicing opinions here, simply becasue we care that much. Most folks would think we're weird! LOL In fact, cats are true carnivores, needing animal protein every day in their diets but dogs are like people, omnivores. They actually thrive on a combination of plant and animal proteins. That has nothing to do with so called evolution of dogs from wolves or what a wolf eats but is strictly based on present science. We can even make a complete vegetarian diet for a dog but really can't for a cat. Your point that your dog is doing fine on 30% protein is key. If his blood work is normal and his weight is good, no problem. If that should change, lowering that protein and increasing the quality with egg for example, will be in order. Since most peopke never do blood work and kidney disease disguises itself till its almost too late, the concept of lowering the protein is based on prevention. Since they don't need it anyway, why put them at risk? But you are correct that high protein does not CAUSE kidney issues! A good example is a recent study done on cats with high sodium foods. It was a Grade 1 2 year study that showed healthy cats can handle high sodium with no adverse consequences. Proof that healthy kidneys work the way they are designed. But another group of nutritionists did the same study, but only for 24 weeks, but included a group of cats with very early subclinical kidney insuficiency. The results were dramatic! BUN, creatinine, etc were elevated in just 12 short weeks. That confirmed that any decrease in kidney function is worsened by excess sodium. That has been shown with the phosphorus levels in protein. So an otherwise healthy looking dog on a high protein diet may be doing well, but up to 75% of kidney function is lost before there are clinical signs observed by the pet owner! So the thinking is lets lower the total protein and increse the biological value by combining protein sources, again such as egg, and hopefully delay the onset of the disease, especilly as the dog ages. BTW, this is a much bigger problem in cats. If the industry cared about the health of dogs and cats there would be limits to mineral excesses like sodium and phosphorus but there are none, which allows companies to have 2 and 3 times the levels that are optimum for prevention. When is the last time you saw marketing discussing that? Sometimes we forget protein is simply amino acids, which have specific roles. There are so many other components of the diet we tend to ignore. They type of fat, the added fiber sources that produce healthy GI tracts, etc. Not as glamorous to be sure, but do effect the performance of the diet and the health of our pets just as much as protein. I can tell you nutritionally and legally there is not one single diet on the market that is deficient in protein. Excessive protein is literally everywhere


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## Lance-Dash (Aug 13, 2013)

Dr Dolittle said:


> ... but dogs are like people, omnivores. They actually thrive on a combination of plant and animal proteins.


hmmm, interesting. Maybe if we prepare if for them (plant protein)? I may be wrong here, but I think I read somewhere dogs do not have the enzymes to break down cellulose. If they can't break it down it would have to be prepared for them to eat. Therefore, if left on their own (non-domesticated), how could they thrive on plant protein? I think dogs, because of jaw structure tend to naturally gulp their food, and only chew if afraid the food would cause them to choke. Proof that a dogs cannot breakdown plant matter (on their own accord) is how something looks coming out the other end!



> We can even make a complete vegetarian diet for a dog but really can't for a cat.


 Key words here: *WE CAN MAKE*. So, suppose we didn't make it, a prepared vegan diet and feed a dog exclusively a raw vegan diet? I think the end result would be starvation, and that is by no means thriving!

I think the bottom line here is, a higher protein diet simply means the dog will consume less food. Consuming less food means less work the kidneys have to do, equaling the work load as having to consume twice as much food.


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## Dr Dolittle (Aug 2, 2013)

Lance, Good post! I have to figure out how to cut and paste text like you did! anyway, it really depends on the plant and why you have it in the diet. Cellulose is plant fiber, not a protein source. it is insoluble or non digestible, just as you said. it is an excellent fiber source when we are treating GI issues, especially chronic ones, and managing glucose spikes, such as with diabetes. The fact it is not digestible is why it is used. compare that to let's say corn, which is highly digestible and provides amino acids(protein) some fiber, 5 times the fatty acids of rice, antioxidants, etc. I suppose wolves get some of this from the stomach contents of the prey they kill but I find that theory somewhat anecdotal. the fact is there is quite a difference in what those poor wolves have available to them and their lives are tragically short, compared to the precise nutrients we can offer domestic dogs who are living to crazy long years! my last Berner was a month short of 13 when we lost her! So no, I can't imagine a wolf would last very long on a diet without meat but that is only due to its limitations of what's available. oh, and yes, on a high fiber food, with insoluble fiber, you will see the result on the other end! Absolutley!

as far as increasing protein so you could feed less....Energy comes from protein, carbs, and fat. Fat has more than twice the energy of carbs or protein. yes, you can use protein but it has to be broken down and the kidneys and liver have to work on it, before its converted to energy. To reduce that workload on the kidneys, if you simply adjust the fat level to meet the energy requirements, you can keep the protein level somewhat lower, reducing the workload on the kidneys. BTW, healthy kidneys can handle that workload. We are just considering the chances of kidney insufficiency as the dog ages. the protein requirements vary greatly from growth years to geriatric years. There is a new blood test coming out soon which will reveal kidney issues much earlier. Raw folks should live this because they can feed whatever they want and better monitor kidney health, showing their diet is fine. it should be out soon but I am not at liberty to discuss it. And as many here will agree, if your dog is blessed with great kidneys, all the protein in the world isn't a problem. But we lose way too many dogs and more cats to kidney disease, so it is definitely worth debating and evaluating the scientific research.


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## Celt (Dec 27, 2010)

My father who was born before kibble became "well used". Lol, talk about showing your age. He said people were always mistaken when they said dogs were carnivores. The "truth" of the matter is dogs are opportunists. They will eat anything to keep body and soul together. Yes, dogs are closer to carnivores so should get some meat in their diets but are capable of surviving and thriving on a diet without it. Since people began to feed dogs, they ate whatever was given which was usually "good" scraps (the "bad went to the hogs). Depending on what the family ate a dog could end up with stale bread, spoilt/ cooked meat and veggies, scrap bones and organs, and excess dairy products or eggs. Dogs survived and did well being able to live to old age (if they didn't develop a disease, serious injury, or "bad" behavior). Now, some of these dogs did "round out" their diets by scavenging or hunting "vermin". Only the "well to do" could afford feeding a "special diet" to their dogs, but even then it was made from the cheapest food. Most dogs are born with no/very little of the enzymes needed to digest raw plant matter, so while they can survive on a plant based diet (especially if they find the "softer", i.e. sqashes,or beginning to spoil plants ), eventually they will die from deficiencies without meat. Of course, this doesn't really matter because generally dogs are not fed raw plant matter but ones that have already been processed in such a way that what little enzymes are present are capable of digesting the food. Studies have shown that different dogs have varied amounts of these enzymes, and indicators point towards the diet affecting this amount. 
It is difficult to have "enough" fat in a kibble. Generally, I've found, meat based kibble seem to have a higher fat content than carb based kibbles. And, imo, meat based protein takes less "work" for the body to break down. 
okay, enough of that. Back to the main topic, protein levels are getting a bit much. I dehydrate some of my own foods, so I can see how food can be "changed". I know that 3lbs of chicken becomes 10 oz of dried meat, but 3lbs of say apples becomes about 2-2 1/2 pounds dried. Some foods like beans lose very little of their "weight". Now, I am assuming that the amount of protein did not change with the loss of the "water" which means meat doesn't really contain a high amount of protein. But then again, most high protein dog foods get it from "plants which is cheaper. And as I've said, imo, meat proteins cause less "work" for a dog's body to process ergo, high protein kibbles are probably not necessary or at times appropriate. Look for "dried" meat sources that are high in the listing and fewer plant proteins than meat if you want to feed a high protein diet, imo, this would cause less stress over the long term. Otherwise, if you want to be cautious, feed a lower level protein and add in extra fats and meats to "up" the protein amount and "easy energy fuel".


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## Shamrockmommy (Sep 10, 2009)

Always love these discussions! Thanks to DrD for giving us good info


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## Lance-Dash (Aug 13, 2013)

Dr Dolittle said:


> Lance, Good post! ...


Thank you doctor. I always enjoy reading your posts and find them informative and interesting, despite not always agreeing with some of the content.


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## Lance-Dash (Aug 13, 2013)

Celt said:


> ...I dehydrate some of my own foods, so I can see how food can be "changed". I know that 3lbs of chicken becomes 10 oz of dried meat, but 3lbs of say apples becomes about 2-2 1/2 pounds dried. Some foods like beans lose very little of their "weight". ...


I think this is one of the areas where a lot of deception in the dog food can be found. This pertains particularly to a product that contain a number 1 ingredient as a meat ingredient (poultry), like "Chicken". Because the kibble process amounts to a dehydrated product, I think often is the case a no.2 or no. 3 ingredient can possible be higher in protein content than the no.1 ingredient. Yet the consumer because of labeling will often think the protein in the diet is chicken based when the reality is vegetable or plant protein based. Without question IMO a detriment to the dog.


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## MarieLovesChis (Mar 25, 2014)

I know this thread is a little older, but I found this discussion really interesting! I don't think there is really a one size fits all "X amount of protein is too much". Not only can it depend on activity level, but you have to take into account how much you feed.

I have a small dog who has to eat minuscule amounts of food to maintain her weight. Her metabolism seems dead lol she gains very easily. Supposedly the bare minimum amount of protein a healthy adult dog needs is 1gram of protein per pound of body weight daily. Onyx is about 7 pounds so that means she should get a minimum of 7grams of protein daily. Well everything I've read says senior dogs need around 50% MORE protein than adult dogs. Onyx is considered a senior so increasing her minimum by 50% would put her at a daily need of 10.5grams of protein. She is currently on a 37% protein food and based on her calorie needs, eats 35.8grams of kibble. That means she's getting 13grams of protein daily.

Compare that to if she ate Acana (which I do feed sometimes) at 31% protein. She would need 37.5grams of kibble on Acana, giving her a daily amount of 11.5grams of protein. So based on Onyx's needs and food intake, 37% protein isn't even high, let alone 30%! In fact, going by her needing at least 10.5grams of protein and needing such small meals, going any lower than around 30% doesn't seem like a good idea. So while that may be high protein for some dogs, for MY dog it is not. And she's far from active haha more like a couch potato.

So yea, I don't think there is such a thing as "too high" protein as it all depends on the individual dog's needs.


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