# needing to vent, and some advice.



## RiverRun

Now, before I begin this let me just say one thing...please do not judge me, I am not asking for people to tell me how bad of a person I am or how terrible of a dog owner. I am posting here for unbiased advice. I simply am looking for a lead to the direction I need to go. 

Now then, here is my issue..and this is going to be long winded. 
I have a female Australian shepherd that is now 8 years old. This dog has been hell on paws from the very start. I got her from a BYB and the day I brought her home she immediately showed me her true temperament. This dog was scared of EVERYTHING. I took her everywhere and introduced her to as many things as I could. I trained with her, walked her, played with her, and honestly she was a great little puppy....until she hit about 5 months old. She would no longer go for walks, she would not set foot outside if the wind was blowing, and leaves rumbling could be categorized as a murderer knocking on your door. I tried everything from treats, clickers, toys, prong collars, choke collars, remote collars, NO collars...nothing, nothing worked. After two years I was able to get her to the point that I could walk her, albeit with a struggle, and she would actually enjoy running free in the woods at times as long as she did not pick up another person's scent. By that time though, she had already developed a severe aggression that turned into a horrible battle for dominance. Once again, I tried everything I could think of. I contacted trainers, behaviorists, forums, rescues; everyone turned me down or told me I was an awful person that just had not tried hard enough to help her. I got frustrated and gave up on outside help. After having my own dog bite me in the face, twice, I set out to work with her as hard as I could to get her better. After three more years, she had made a bit of improvement; probably as much as she would ever make. I no longer tried to walk her, and did not take her anywhere outside the home, but she at least did not seem AS scared nor AS aggressive. That was when she went in to have her FHO surgeries on both hips. Her old destructive behaviors shot back with the force of a rubber band. She chewed the muscle out of her leg while she was healing, ambushed anyone that walked near her crate, attacked every animal she saw, and stared me down with the most evil eyes. After an entire year of healing, her scars were gone and we were back to the way she was years ago. 
Now at 8 years old she is sweet about 20% of the time and a total terror to everyone in her path the other 80%. She defends my other dog's crate and jumps the closest dog to her if I tell her to get out or back off. She tries to bite me nightly when I tell her to do something she does not want to do(like get out from under the bed, get out of the crate, or just come to me). She loves to attack the cat if she sees her doing something naughty. She ALWAYS attacks my lab and has now begun attacking my foster dog daily. She paces the yard and digs trenches. I cannot take her anywhere outside of the house, period. 
I can handle all of her little behavioral 'ticks' but this aggression(whether it be fear or dominance) is awful. She has put a hole in the side of my labs face, she has my foster dog TERRIFIED of her, and she continues to stare me down with those evil eyes while letting out a low, very intense snarl. I know this is all fueled by her fear, and could quite possibly be getting worse because there is a chance she is still in pain from the surgeries. I just don't know what to do to handle her anymore. I cannot keep her separate because she will DESTROY anything that is in her way. She ripped up an entire hallway of carpet in one hour. But she is so random with her attacks, and I am not exaggerating she gives NO warning(she could jump up from sleeping and start attacking one of the animals) I do not know how to prevent this. I have often considered putting her down because this is NO quality of life for her. She is still terrified of everything; wind, people, shadows, noises, storms, leaves, anything different, the OUTSIDE, etc. She cannot be trusted around ANYONE because of her state of fear or dominance, there is always the chance she may bite, which is nerve wracking because I have toddlers and infants around her. BUT I feel as if I do not have a valid reason to put her down, besides not being able to walk very well, still being in pain from her old surgeries, and her elbows developing arthritis, she is still a very healthy dog. 
Any advice? Or just words of wisdom? I have had a rough day with her today, she attacked foster dog again(chased her INTO the crate and tore into her) and then tonight she has been TRYING to attack her all night and finally acted like she was going to bite my foot when I tried to stop her from running under my bed(she gets VERY aggressive if she is allowed under there). After that, it was a battle full of snarls and snapping until she finally came out and I got her to lie at my feet until she calmed down. SOOO I am a bit frustrated and just looking for help and a place to vent. This dog frustrates me to NO END.


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## RachelsaurusRexU

I don't think anyone can blame you for being so frustrated. I also don't think most people would have dealt with such severe issues for such a long period of time, so please don't let anyone tell you that you're a bad dog owner or that you're not trying. I have to be honest, if I were in your position and felt like all options had been exhausted, I believe I would have the dog euthanized. As you said, there can't be much quality of life for her, plus she's a danger to herself and everyone around her. It has to be traumatic for the other animals in the house and you as well. I'm sorry you're going through this, and I'm also sorry for her. Sounds like an all around awful situation. 

Have you tried any psychotropic drugs with her?


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## JLeigh

You won't like what I'm about to say, but my gut reaction is to have her put down. She sounds thoroughly miserable and dangerous to boot. It's not her fault (and I'm not saying it's your fault), but it doesn't sound to me like she has any quality of life at all. Also, there is no way on earth that it is even remotely safe to have her around toddlers and infants --or anyone for that matter. That is a mauled child waiting to happen. And then she will be put down, and not on your terms. Honestly, if it were me I would have her put down as soon as possible. Obviously, it's your choice to make. I'm sorry you're going through this.


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## Sprocket

JLeigh said:


> You won't like what I'm about to say, but my gut reaction is to have her put down. She sounds thoroughly miserable and dangerous to boot. It's not her fault (and I'm not saying it's your fault), but it doesn't sound to me like she has any quality of life at all. Also, there is no way on earth that it is even remotely safe to have her around toddlers and infants --or anyone for that matter. That is a mauled child waiting to happen. And then she will be put down, and not on your terms. Honestly, if it were me I would have her put down as soon as possible. Obviously, it's your choice to make. I'm sorry you're going through this.



I was going to say the same thing.


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## Kat

That's a scary situation to live in, for both you and your other dogs. It doesn't sound like she has any quality of life, constantly being scared and stressed out. Good on you for being able to hang in there all these years. If it was me, and I had exhausted all other options, I would personally have her put down as well. When a dog is a danger to others, as well as themselves, it is in the best interest of everyone I think. 

Whatever you decide to do, you will know its the right thing. Good luck


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## Rvent

I am sorry you are going through this, I know a little about living with a dog that frustrates and has some aggression.. Babs has randomly attacked my husband when he yells or slams doors... Macy attacks Babs ever chance she gets, we now live in a dog crate, and baby gate world here, Babs was diagnosed with fear aggression/protective aggression she was given Prozac it helped a lot, not a cure but she was able to tolerate a lot more stuff (wind blowing ect). I keep Macy and Babs completely separate now at all times, breaking up dog fights all the time has taken its toll on me as well as them, not that they would stop. I am not for putting down a healthy dog

what does your vet think of her behavior, is it pain or some other issue? I might even consider giving her xanax & Prozac to calm her down. I might even stick a basket muzzle on her.


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## Maxy24

My first thought was to give medication a try. I personally wouldn't put a dog to sleep until giving that a try first, so long as you are able to manage the situation until then. See if you can find a veterinary behaviorist that can help you choose a medication. A regular vet can also prescribe meds but the veterinary behaviorist will have the most up to date info and be more familiar with a wider range of drugs and will have seen many clients through from before meds to long after meds and know the common side effects and which seem to work best for different behaviors.

I would no longer let her around the dogs unless you are sure you can prevent her triggers. I would certainly not let her around foster dogs as a bad experience could cause them to become dog aggressive and become unadoptable. Keep her away from all people other than yourself. Desensitize her to a basket muzzle so she can wear it when out on walks (here is a good video of how to do that https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1FABgZTFvHo ). Do everything you can to prevent bites from happening. While I do not believe in aggression being caused by a dog trying to be dominant, I do think a program like nothing in life is free (NILIF) can help teach a dog to look to you for direction before acting or when confused. So it might b worth a try. Make sure you can read body language and tell when your dog is getting upset so you can remove the trigger ASAP.

I am sorry you have to go through this, I know how hard having an aggressive dog is and your girl sounds a lot worse, I can only imagine how stressful, draining and upsetting that must be. I would not hesitate to give medication a try.


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## creek817

I would try medication before putting her down. I feel like you have tried everything else, and if you don't try it, you might wish you had. I don't really know you, so that's just a guess. Maybe Liz, if she reads this, can recommend some natural remedies for fear - I knwo she has given some to my friend that have helped her dog's fear, but she wasn't aggressive really, just scared. But I definitely think meds are worth a try before you put her to sleep.

If you do decide to put her to sleep, I can totally understand, as everyone else said, you have tried really hard, and she doesn't seem happy.

Good luck.


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## woganvonderweidenstrasse

Wow sounds bad. Make a video and send to Cesar Millan. If he can't fix her he'll adopt her into his pack and you won't have to put her down. It may be your last option and worth a shot?


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## Felix

woganvonderweidenstrasse said:


> Wow sounds bad. Make a video and send to Cesar Millan. If he can't fix her he'll adopt her into his pack and you won't have to put her down. It may be your last option and worth a shot?


I was going to say that too, but I think Cesar Milan hasn't had his show anymore going on a couple years. Not sure if he started it up again after his attempted suicide. But if Cesar isn't an option, I would have the dog humanely put to sleep.


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## woganvonderweidenstrasse

Felix said:


> I was going to say that too, but I think Cesar Milan hasn't had his show anymore going on a couple years. Not sure if he started it up again after his attempted suicide. But if Cesar isn't an option, I would have the dog humanely put to sleep.


Did he attempt suicide? OMG! why?

Edit: Googled it, shame poor guy. Maybe this is exactly what he needs, to see that someone still believes in what he can do. Maybe you can help each other? Anyway, came across an article: 

"A new Millan show, "Leader of the Pack," is scheduled to premiere in January. "The Dog Whisperer" ended its run in September. "Cesar Millan: The Real Story" is set to air Nov. 25."


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## Chocx2

I have to chim in, I have an Aussie, not as bad, but he can not go near people because he has bitten four people. My friend who is a vet advised me when he was a pup to establish dominance, showed me how, which is the same way Ceasar did it. It worked for me but my husband thought it was nonsense. He still gets bit. I still cannot let him around anyone but a few select people. I feel for you, and if I had known about the aggression thing with this breed I would have looked better at the parents first. I think if your dog is biting you the animal needs to be put down. Its very sad, I'm sorry for that all your efforts didn't help. I take mine for walks in the woods where no one but other animals get his rath haha he has chased a panther before !!


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## RiverRun

Thank you everyone for all of the encouragement! It is nice to get some positive words from others, even if the outcome is not good for her. 

In response to some questions...yes she has been on every drug out there that the vets can think of and NOTHING works for her. She has adverse reactions and gets WORSE! Go figure. She tried to kill the other dogs once when she was on ace when recovering from her surgery and I was giving her the max dose! I have never seen a dog NOT drugged out when on ace, but leave it to mine to fight through it. I cannot separate her because she will destroy the room/crate/gate/door of where ever she is at. Believe me, I tried that route and paid for the mistake. I tried the Cesar Millan method, and maybe I am not doing it right, but it does not seem to work for her. 

Her issues with walks is she is too scared to go on walks. She spins when given the length of a leash, and when kept short she nervously jerks, barks, shivers, and then ultimately sits and shuts down. After 2 years of fighting with her, I gave up. I tried a few years ago to submit a video to Cesar Millan, but he never is taking situations from my area. Every time I checked before, it was always full and only local people could still submit. I will check it out again and see, but its so hard to capture her 'episodes' on film because she is so random with them. Maybe if I live with a camera in my hand, haha. If I cannot find anything to help her, I am going to try to get my mind in set to EU next year. I just feel horrible to do it and am afraid that the moment I do, some miracle cure will arise and I will regret it deeply.....but neither River, nor me, can continue on like this. When she is good, she is really good; when she is bad, she is AWFUL. Always one extreme or another. As of right now its, let her live out the rest of her life in fear and possibly pain; or end it all. At the moment, both decisions are bad on her part. Its so hard to decide.  I may not have a bond with her, but I have had her for eight years and have to admit, I am attached and love her despite her bad issues.

Edited to add: every vet I have visited tells me they have no other options to give me. Also, they cannot say for certain if she is in pain or not, but I believe she may be.


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## RachelsaurusRexU

I was thinking about your situation today and I realized something. A few years ago I went to a seminar by Dr. Karen Overall. She's an animal behaviorist who specializes in aggression. You can read about her here Animal Behavior Resources Institute, or google her. I realize that she is based in PA, but its worth a shot to contact her, as the Australian shepherd is "her breed". She owns several Aussies, all of which were brought to UPenn for euthanasia due to extreme aggression issues. She rehabilitated and adopted them! Her email is [email protected].


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## xchairity_casex

Im so sorry you have had to deal with this for so many years. Reading that makes me think theres somthing deeper going on with her. the way you describe her stareing you down and growling at you thru evil eyes, makes me not belive its caused from fear at all, i hate to say it but my first thought was there is somthing nerologically wrong with this dog that i doubt will ever be able to be fixed.

i would not suggest Cesar Millian, like i stated, i seriously believe there is somthing wrong with her brain, perhapse a type of genetic defect, like you stated she is up and down, thats very unusual.

i doubt drugs will fix her, i doubt training will do much, i would suggest managment techniques, wearing a basket muzzle at all times around the other animals, wearing a lead at all times,, keeping her contained safely, should you choose to keep her. if at all possible, make a room specifically for her, dog proof it and keep some safe chewys for her, and when you and the other animals need some down time from her you can tuck her away.


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## RiverRun

xchairity_casex, I have considered that also, and it would not surprise me if there was something neurologically wrong with her. As you said, her up and down behavior is very odd. I have never experienced a dog that actually acts as if she is bipolar. I have seen many aggressive dogs, fearful dogs, fear aggressive dogs, anxious dogs; but something usually triggered it and could be prevented before the behavior got out of control. She will go from 0 aggressiveness to 100 in a second, and then right back to no problem minutes later. I have heard of dogs having brain tumors that cause severe temperament issues, but I do not have anymore money to spend on her. I know that sounds horrible, but I have invested 1,000s of dollars into this dog already and my money is VERY tight. 

RachelsaurusRexU- thank you for the link and email! I will check it out and/or contact her! At this point, I am not sure if I, myself, could help River anymore because I have been conditioned for 8 years to expect her behavior and I believe I am at the end of my 'leash' per say. It would be very hard to re-condition myself to be any other way. To be completely honest.


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## Liz

River Run - I will probably make people angry but it sounds more neurological than behavioral though she has reinforced her behavior every time she has attacked and won. You don't know much about her lineage, and in any breed that can be a huge problem. You seem to have tried everything. You have gone above and beyond what almost anyone else would do. I honestly believe there are some dogs that cannot be "fixed". We have become a society that cannot accept failure. She does not sound right and I would never recommend anyone live like this especially having children around. Your other dogs are not having the quality of life they could have without this constant stress and worry. You are not having a quality of life and neither is your girl pup. If you choose to have her put to sleep you will know that she was cared for tot the end and the last face, voice and hands were those of someone who cared for her. I cannot imagine three or more years of your living like this. I am sorry you have struggle with this for so long.


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## RiverRun

Thank you Liz,

If we humans could just separate our emotions from things, I believe we could make much better decisions. That is the only thing that has kept me from putting her down earlier. I think I have made up my mind and then I look down and she has just come back from my bedroom and brought me a stolen sock, giving me that crazy little look of hers. Breaks my heart and breaks me down. Some days I wish she was older, then I would not feel so bad making that decision, but my mind runs in circles and keeps telling me she is too young and it's not fair.


then again, when is this type of decision ever easy?


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## Liz

It is never easy even when the dog is ill or failing. Our emotions are so involved and you have put so much into it. It is a hard decision. The children in the home would probably sway me the most but the other dogs should not have to be constantly afraid and neither should you. I don't envy you having to make a choice like this, it is hard. If you feel you have done all you can then love her the best you can until you decide and if you keep searching for answers I hope you find something and if you choose to let her go then find peace in that you did the best possible for her. No one could ask more than you have already give. I hope this doesn't sound flippant because I truly do know the heartache of making this decision though my dogs have been due to physical issues and not mental or emotional. It is just hard. I am sorry.


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## RiverRun

it's especially hard when I go back and watch videos of her from a few years ago. Like these:
training river2 - YouTube
001 - YouTube

She can be so normal and it's times like that, that make it impossible to make a decision. That was 4 years ago. She always has been smart as a whip. 

this was her back in 06, before she got BAD. Gives you a bit of a glimpse as to how she can be. Although multiply this by 50. Also, the pitty mix was a total brat, so at that time I did not blame her for acting that way to him. I simply let those two around each other for the sake of the video
Jack and River - YouTube


I thank each and everyone one of your for your kind words and support. Thank you for allowing me to vent. I guess it just boils down to what I believe will be best for her. Only time will tell that. I am trying to get this foster dog out of my house as soon as possible, I know that is stressing River enormously, and I guess just asses her after that.


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## Maxy24

Do you have any ideas what triggers the behavior? In that video she appears to be guarding the bed and the crate, is it always resource guarding? Obviously that isn't the whole issue as you say she's just overall an anxious mess, but I was wondering if that's he main issue with the dogs. What are situations that caused her to bite you? after she bites does she pursue you/the dog or does she just bite once and then back off?

I would not use Cesar Millan's methods on this dog (or any dog but especially this dog), punishment based methods can only suppress the behavior, not take care of the underlying emotional or psychological issue causing the behavior, this isn't just a case of bad behavior, it is a serious emotional or psychological problem showing itself in the form of bad behavior. So while your life may improve by not having to deal with as much aggressive behavior, your dog will still be living in a world of terror, stress, and anxiety, perhaps even more since she now has to fear your punishments. Eventually the dog might not be able to control those feelings despite knowing she will get punished and will again bite, perhaps with even more severity because she tried holding off until she was at her absolute highest stress level. You may have been lulled into a sense of security by that point because the training had decreased the aggressive behavior, so you were not expecting the bite and had put the dog into a stressful situation. And then someone will get hurt.

I can't imagine having to make this decision, and it is entirely yours to make. You have to decide what you can live with, decide if you can keep others safe, and decide what is best for her and for your other dogs. As devastating as putting her down would be, if she is spending most of her life anxious then death might be kinder than life in that state. 

If you choose to try something else I would still go with a veterinary behaviorist, but they can be very expensive, and of course they may not be able to help either, you cannot cure genetics. Medication can fix some things (by changing brain chemistry, at least in the case of SSRI's) but not everything and they still require behavioral modification to change the dog's way of dealing with stress. They should just make the dog more able to think before acting, less on edge and ready to react at any moment. This will give the behavioral modification time to work, obviously no amount of training is going to help if the dog doesn't think before reacting. But they don't always work, because we don't always know the problem.


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## Savage Destiny

If she were mine, she would have been dead a long time ago. I know that sounds harsh, but she sounds completely unstable, and to me that is 100% unacceptable. I would never keep a dog that I raised from a puppy that would bite me. How many times does she have to injure people before she's seen as a threat? It seems like she is terrorizing your household, and that is no way for anyone to live. It's not fair to the rest of your family or your other dogs. 

Further, she does not sound like a happy dog. What's the point in making her live in fear and terror?


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## RiverRun

Maxy, you are correct; in that video she certainly was guarding the bed and her crate. That was many years ago and she does not guard things quite to that degree anymore(we worked on that quite a bit and accomplished a lot over the years) but she now guards less frequently and more viciously. Her triggers are a lot of guarding honestly. She guards the underside of my bed, the foster dog's crate, the kitchen sink, and the children. When she bites me, or tries to, she backs off immediately but if I do not back off too then she sits a growls. When she attacks the dogs(and she full blown attacks them) she NORMALLY will stop once separated, but lately she has started going right back to that dog, or attacking the next one near to her. Once she is stopped completely, she usually stalks off and lies down somewhere. I have gotten to where all I do when she behaves like this and tell her(I try to never physically restrain her unless neccessary for safety) to lie down at my feet until she calms down. Normally after she calms down and I walk off she will shoot under my bed and will usually start to viciously growl if I tell her to get out. I do not like her getting under there because she gets so protective and aggressive, but getting her out normally results in snapping and bites, which will lead to attacking another dog once she comes out. Her behavior is so confusing, it is hard to put your thumb on what triggers it and what would stop it. 

Savage, you are also correct. She is NOT happy, but she sometimes acts like it which always stops me from actually making the decision. 

Another odd thing is she LOVES babies, human and animal. She gets all wiggly and happy when they are around, but if she is stepped on by them, pushed while sleeping, or kicked while under the table, she always lets out this growl and gets up and moves. She sometimes will turn around like she is going to snap, but then stops and just walks off. I don't understand that. She does that to me too. If she is laying in the way, I may poke her with my toe to get her to move and she lets out a growl and stalks off.


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## xchairity_casex

here is my take, you all may take it or leave it.

in the first video, i noticed she is VERY demanding and very pushy towards you to throw the frisbee. that for me would be a HUGE NO NO.
in the second video, the bully is not being pushy to be pushy, she is sending him mixed signals, she snaps then lays off so the bully tries getting on the bed, she snaps again then lays off, she doesnt know how to follow thru and get the bully to take her seriously so he doesnt.


I wish you lived near me. If she were with me i would begin teaching her self control, alot of people will tell you (and i seen in the first video, its what you do) to use basic obedience, such as sit to teach a dog NILF or self control, this can not have the desired results in dogs like this.
Your girl is pushy,demanding and has loads of high energy, which can easily result in bites and aggression.
it normally starts out with a lil nudge here and there, they a physical push then a whine, then a bark, then it could move on to light nips then harder bites untill it results in full blown aggression.
OBVIOUSLY this isnt the case with most dogs, most dogs might whine or bark or huff or lightly nip when wanting to be fed and thats all that happens, with other dogs that have so much energy and have no idea what to do with it it can result in what your seeing- aggression when someone pushes her into not getting her own way.

its not your fault, i seen in the video you ask her to "sit" to wait for the frisbee, the only problem with this is shes still excitible and she only waits a few moments before its thrown fo her. 

My pup Chimera becomes just as excitible over food, i make her WAIT for an hour and a half every meal time she waits, if at any point she becomes excitible again....she waits some more! i dont care if she sits, i dont care if she lies down, i dont care if shes stands, so long as she gives up the idea shes going to be allowed to eat with an energy like that. i do this because if i didnt wait and gratified her energy with food, she WILL become aggressive, shes already tried attacking Cesar over food, now i feed them side by side without issues because she knows tto be that excited is NOT going to get her fed.

if hse were in my care i would begin every morning of putting a lead on her and keeping her tetherd to me and i ignore her, i walk where i need to walk i sit when i want to sit. all toys get picked up and taken away, water is not availible without my giving it nor is food. and i dont ask a dog anything, i dont say anything to the dog.
first thing in the morning i open the crate but make her wait with the door open she cannot come out till i SAY she can come out, but i simply use my arm to block her, i dont yell or say no or push i simply put my arm up and block her from coming out. once she lies back down and gets comfortible i put her lead on and call her out then let her out to go potty. then we go back inside and i would grab a bowl for water, fill it and before i set it down i block her from touching it or sniffing it. i dont ask her to sit, i dont say "leave it" or "wait" i am calm and quite and block useing my hand. she will probably struggle to get the water at first, then she will sit down and stare at the water then she will look at me, could take 5 minutes, could take an hour, i dont care i wait for her to relax and give up the idea of getting to get the water herself and thinks "well i cant get it and i cant force her to give it to me" then i call over and offer her the water. once she drinks as much as she wants we would go for a long 2-4 hour walk, no sniffing, no pulling, no excitment, sheh as to wait at the open door till she gives up the idea that she can pull to get out or bar k at me to get out or circle to get me to go out or nip or jump up on me, i want her to give up the idea that she can force me to give into giving her what she wants most and relax. again it could be 5 minutes, could be an hour heck it could be 3 hours but ill sit there and ill wait saying nothing, not one single word. and once she gives me what im looking for we go out and walk, i walk as if she is not there and ignore her fully, she pulls i ignore her and hold the lead in position, she stops to sniff i keep walking she jumps on me to gorce me to stop or whines i ignore her and keep walking.
after the walk we will go home and i will again offer water the same way, then i will offer food, most dogs who are hyper are excitible over food, so expect a long wait maybe an hour maybe 2 hours how ever long it takes gfor her to give up the idea that she can force you into giving into her. and to understand she DOESNT NEED TO.

after eating we will play, but differantly, this playtime means no more demanding me to throw the toy and no jumping for the toy. i will throw the toy once she calms a bit and doesnt focus on the toy but on my face. i would practice setting ht toy on the ground and she cannot touch it she cannot stare at it she cannot whine overi t she has to wait for the toy.

after we play i again offer water, the same way, then i would takeh er to her crate and put her in leaving hte door open, and again work on blocking her from walking out, dont push, dont grab, simply block is what i would do and i would make her stay in there while i went around the house doing what i needed to do or watching tv, everytime she comes out si would send her back and make her stayin.
when its time for bed, she would go into her crate and go to bed without a fuss. the next day i would wake up and begin all over again.


WHY would i do this? because this would teach her SELF CONTROL, she cannot FORCE you to do anything, and hse learns that without forcing, she gets everything she needs anyways, and she gets it quicker the less she tries tp push.

IF she growled at me or snapped at me or tried to attack me, i would simply hold onto the lead and hold her away from me and let her flail and try to reach me till she was done then go right back to what i was doing if i was blocking her, i would keep blocking her after she was done throwing her fit, if i was making her wait for water, i still make her wait for water after she was done with her hissy fit, if i was making her wait for food, i would still make her wait for food after she threw her hissy fit.


THAT is what I would do, and i would imagine it would take months of doing this routine everyday, everyday,everyday NEVER letting it ever slide.
BUT that is ME and what I would do, and i base this simple opinion simply on the 2 short videos i have seen.


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## RiverRun

Chairity, you are correct BUT I have already done NILF with her and attempting to drain all of her energy(do you know how HARD it is to drain the energy of a dog you cannot walk outside of the home? OMG). Yes, we did have some success; but her issue is she is normally always calm. She is always laying somewhere sleeping. She is a quiet but deadly dog. She never gets excited unless we are outside playing. Also, I only allowed her crazy excitement for that video way back then. I do not allow that anymore when playing because she barks obnoxiously if I do. If it were not for the aggression and anxiety, she would be the perfect dog honestly. 
That is why she is so hard to predict, because she is so calm and collected RIGHT up until she attacks. Now I do have to say SOMETIMES you can catch her eyeing the dog she wants to bite and can make an indirect noise to snap her out of it, but if you dare say anything directly to her she will jump up and attack said dog. 

The video with the bully was many years ago before we had done so much work together. She is never allowed to act like that anymore and never gets to that point. 
This is the issue I am running into, everything everyone suggests it seems we have already tried; so is it me or is it her? 

Also, now I do not have any time to work with her because I work 11 hour days 5 days a week and sometimes 6 days a week. Leaves no time to train anymore.

Edited: I feel like my post above sounds abrasive, but I just wanted to clarify that I was only responding to your post and agreeing with you. I hope my post does not come off as being rude in anyway, because that is not my intention.


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## RiverRun

this video here shows more of her control. Back when we could train everyday, she did beautifully during our sessions. 
Note: yes at this time she had a remote collar on. I RARELY used the shock, it was always the vibration that I used, also I only used this to get her attention back on me because she is an anxious dog when outside. If she seems scared at all in this video, Jaegger's whining the background was making her very anxious.
Training with River - YouTube


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## Felix

Unfortunately I would probably have her put down. Did she have these problems when she was the only dog? Perhaps if she could have been trained/exercised REALLY hard daily these behaviors wouldn't have developed. Training is a daily, life long activity, especially for an extremely high energy dog like River. It would appear that when another dog was introduced, she started developing problems (jumping, demanding the frisbee), and possibly where the resource guarding started. In the first vid she didn't have a problem giving up the frisbee, in the second one, she did. I wouldn't have allowed that behavior with the bully either, looks like he wasn't actually doing anything and she was constantly attacking him. She is a gorgeous dog and I'm sorry that it had to come to this.


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## xchairity_casex

I understand your not coming off as abrassive, and i want you to know, im not judgeing anything youve done with her, you have done a great job training her and it really shows in the last video, its amazing you should be extremly proud of yourself!


a dog can be relaxed and still be aggressive still be pushy and avoid, have you ever noticed avoidence behaviors in her? turning of her head, lip licking,pupils dialating, wiskers perking forward?

Again, i have seen so little that i would really have to be around her to see what is going on to know if its neurological or behavioral, but from what it seems you understand a good deal and i think you can safely take your own w3ord for it that there is somthing not physically right going on inside of her brain that will probably never be fixable.

its your decision to keep her or to PTS, i would simply work on manegment with her if your going to be keeping her, keep her in a muzzle when around the other animals and other people, i know you say she likes kids but will growl at them but not snap, just remeber she wasnt always a biter with you, but one day it happened and it could happen that way around children also, she only growls but never snaps...untill one day she does. so i would not have her around children at all. do what you can with her, but i wouldnt bother putting any more resorces into her (by resorces i mean hireing or contacting trainers/behaviorlists, paying money for medicines for her ect) i would sit back, accept the fact theirs nothing else you can do to fix her and move on simply making her and your life more comfortible to live, try to avoid provoking her and if she is provoked simply lead her away to chill out in her crate or in a bedroom alone to relax, give her things to stimulate her mentally and try to create as many good memories with her as you can and avoid as many bad ones as possible and let her live out the rest of her days with you should you choose that.

if you choose to PTS, always remember, your not the bad guy, no one is in this scenario, your pup just had a problem neither of you could overcome, if you choose one day to have her put down, dont beat yourself up over it and dont ever feel guilty about the decision youve made. remember, she doesnt enjoy attacking you or other dogs, she doesnt enjoy feeling upset, no one does, animals included, there is a reason our bodies avoid stress, it makes us uncomfortible and unhappy, so if you do decide to put her down remember that and try not to feel bad or guilty about the decision, she had a better life with you then she could have with anyone else.


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## RiverRun

Thank you Chairity! YES she does have avoidance behaviors. That's somewhat what she always does, guard/avoid. 

Felix,

she has never been an only dog, and these behaviors started once she hit puberty. The video with the bully was when she was barely a 1 and a half old. In River's defence, that bully was VERY pushy and would corner her when outside and nip at her face. He played ROUGH with his sibling(these are my sister's dogs) and River was not use to that. She was very scared of him most of the time and would shut down when he came around. We kept them separate until my sister rehomed him with a great friend of ours on a farm. 

My thoughts in this situation is I missed some key point when she was growing up. The issue is, I was only around 13 when I got her at 6 weeks old. I HAD done a good amount of research on behavior and training, but not ENOUGH at that time to know how to properly raise a puppy when behavioral issues, like fear, arise. I wonder if this situation were to happen now, if I could have prevented it because I know more of what to watch out for when they are puppies? Guess I will never know, but if it is NOT something neurological, I can only think that it must have been that period of puppyhood when dogs become unsure and sometimes shy of their surroundings and I must not have handled it correctly. Her being as sensitive as she is, if that was truly the reason I am not surprised that it has developed into the issues she has now. 

Lesson learned here: NEVER get a headstrong dog when you are that young  

After reading through everyone's wonderful posts, and I do THANK you all, I am going to give her next year. I am going to try to take her hiking, and swimming, and make her get out and act like a dog again. If she does not handle it well at all, that will make my decision. If she cannot be a dog, there is no quality of life. My main thing with my dogs is that I want them to hike with me, she is the only one that cannot go, so that will be her test. We are a pack, and a pack travels together.


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## xchairity_casex

I know exactly where you are coming from and how you feel. i did hours upon hours of research for Bull Terriers when i was growing up and read up on NILF training and obedience training, all the suggestions of wonderful bt breeders before i finally got my first bully pup, named him Guinness, day one we started working he was 7 weeks old and by 9 weeks knew the commands for sit, come and wait perfectly without a stitch never got them wrong or was slow to follow the command, i worked hard with him every single day. when he was 3 months, he began to show signs of being a resorce guarder and snap at me over food i got so much conflicting advice i didnt know what to do so i picked what sounded the best for me while trying to find any trainer or behaviorlist to come out and help me even seeing my vet.
by 4 months old it simply became worse and he was going into full blown "i will kill you" mode if i so much as said "no" to him he would rush over to me, try to grab my legs and once he grabbed he would NOT let go and would try to shake me, i would have to either choke him with a lead to get him to let go of me or i would have to pry his mouth off to get him to let go, and he ws a very big boy he weighed 35 pounds at that point (big for a BT pup) then it went further to attacking me if he had anything in his mouth to if i told him no then onto if you accedentally walked into the room or past the room he was in while licking up melted snow off the floor he would chase you down to attack.

at the time i was 19 and had little experience with this kind of thing. suddenly i had everyone telling me how awful of an owner i was and how i did everything wrong and that i had caused it (even though i had followed BT breeders advice perfectly) i had never hit him, i had never been physical with him untill after he began attacking me, i had never used anything except posative reinforcment with training. and i was consistant about rules, i used NILF every single day and he followed it well..untill that one day he took some turkey from the open fridge and when i went to pull him out of hte fridge with one finger on the back of his collar he snapped at me.
i however was living with my nephew at the time was was only 4 years old at the time and the apartment was small, there was no keeping him away from the dog 24/7 so i gave him back to the breeder as the breeder told me to give him back before having him PTS. after that i worked my butt off learning all i could about dog behavior and im where i am now.


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## RiverRun

yes, as much as I hate to say it, I am almost thankful for River's issues. She has taught me so much about canine behavior, if I am unable to help her at this stage at least I can use that knowledge for the next dog.....although I am hoping my next dog will be a little easier!


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## xchairity_casex

You deff learn not to fear simple dog growls or slight snaps thats for dang sure! When Guinness first began snapping at me, i was so nervous, not necessarily of being bitten, but because i had NO clue what was going on! i was so panicked with him, i didnt know what to do!.

now, Cesar or Chimera will show some lip towards the other over food or take a quick snap, and my family is like "OMG! what happened!??" and im like "oh them? they are just being butt holes, dont worry about it, i made them stop its cool"

its like, once youve seen what CAN happen, the smaller things dont faze you, because you actually understand it.


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## RiverRun

I know, my mother about has a heart attack when River gets in her moods and Im just like, "hang on let me break them up" haha. I do get stiff when she acts like she is going to bite me though, just because my body is getting ready for the impact lol Although, once you get bitten once it is all old news. I am been over powered and bitten by a mastiff before, nerve wracking for sure but the worst part was he broke my brand new ring and I lost the stone. I was sooo mad at that dog! lol


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