# Devil's Advocate



## Celt

I know that many people are against buying puppies from pet shops (and I agree that most petshops are horrible places) but if a person wanted a certain breed of dog but would have to travel 100s of miles, which most people cannot afford, what other choice would they have. Afterall, finding a "good" breeder on the internet is no guarantee that they are actually "living up to their reputation" while a few petshops have documents that prove "their" pups are bought from AKC/USDA certified proffessional "kennels".


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## BrownieM

I could not disagree more. There is not one legitimate reason to buy from a pet shop. Also, a AKC/USDA certified professional "kennel" is *not* equivalent to an ethical breeder. There are some high volume operations that are AKC certified. Also, while many pet shops will claim otherwise, the majority, if not all, of the puppies are from puppy mills.

If you cannot afford to find and purchase from a reputable breeder, will you be able to afford a pet? You very well may end up spending more on the pet due to health issues if they come from a pet shop as opposed to an ethical breeder who does health testing.


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## Loki Love

Celt said:


> I know that many people are against buying puppies from pet shops (and I agree that most petshops are horrible places) but if a person wanted a certain breed of dog but would have to travel 100s of miles, which most people cannot afford, what other choice would they have.


Breed specific rescues for starters? There is never an excuse to purchase a dog/cat from a pet store.


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## magicre

i admit that i've bought, in the past, dogs from pet stores.....if they are not sold...they are put to sleep, at least where i used to live or they are bred.....

i would look at them and think....400. is not to dear a price to pay to rescue, considering i would pay the same amount at rescue places where i live.

i, at least, would, neuter the dog and try to give him or her a loving home.

i don't do it anymore, as i have gotten dogs other ways, and thank g'd, these pet shops are being closed....

it is definitely not a good thing....but these are babies who don't understand that the owner is a grinch.


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## BrownieM

Also, buying puppies from pet stores only helps keep these establishments open and fuels the puppy mills. I don't feel nearly as bad for the puppy in the pet store who has some hope to escape as I do for the mommy who is kept in a dark kennel, having litter after litter after litter...


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## luvMyBRT

I totally agree with what has already been stated. ESPECIALLY that if you can't afford to travel to find a reputable, honest, quality breeder then you have no business getting a dog to begin with. Our next BRT pup is from a breeder who lives close to 900 miles away. Traveling to get our pup is only a small cost when you look at the complete life of a well taken care of dog.

I love the idea of breed specific rescues and adopting from a pound or shelter. Sometimes it takes a little planning, saving up money, and patience when looking for the perfect puppy. 

I would never buy a puppy from a pet store. Ever.


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## Celt

Affording a dog and being able to afford several visits to breeders to find a pup are vastly different. And the petshops I'm talking about don't just make the statement but have documents showing the registration numbers of the kennels' certification. These kennels are not the best of situations as the dogs are generally not raise in homes or "individual" attention but are they any worse off than "good" breeders that have 4 or more litters at a time. 
If breed specific rescues were available then yes, it would give an alternative for most people as would shelters if there was any chance of the breed being present.
Travelling one time 900 miles would probably be very doable for most people, but what happens if you get to the breeder and find it to be a "high volume" breeder or that the pup doesn't have the "personality" to fit into your life. 
And it should always take time, patience, and planning to aquire any dog. (still playing devil's advocate)


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## BrownieM

Celt said:


> Affording a dog and being able to afford several visits to breeders to find a pup are vastly different.


No, it's not different. Being able to find a reputable breeder (whether it means driving 20 miles or 900 miles) OR finding a dog through rescue are part of the package of being able to afford a dog. 

Yes, research is essential. Through research, requesting documentation of health testing, having personal recommendations, verifying that the breeder proves their bitches/dogs, researching the volume of breeding and choosing a breeder who does temperament testing, the chances of arriving to find a less than ideal situation are probably going to be lower. 

There is simply no reason to *ever* purchase from a pet store.

Again, having documents to prove the kennels are AKC/USDA certified really doesn't mean much IMO. Too many puppy mills have gotten away with keeping their certification.


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## BrownieM

And if you don't believe me, read these articles:

ASPCA | USDA Fails to Protect Puppy Mill Dogs - Directly quoted from ASPCA: "The report concludes that despite regular inspections, breeders were allowed to continue operating facilities where dogs lived in inhumane conditions—cages overflowing with pools of urine and feces, food laden with dead cockroaches, and dogs infested with ticks and unattended injuries including a mutilated leg and other atrocities—all without penalty."

Puppy Mills - Directly quoted from this website: "The United States Department of Agriculture (USDA) inspects and licenses mills, but their standards for licensing are too low for the tastes of many knowledgeable dog people, including veterinarians, behaviorists, and trainers. In addition, many times violations of code are ignored, and disciplinary action is rarely taken against those mill operators who are deemed to be in violation of code. Dead, dying, and sick dogs, filthy grounds, and cramped cages may be found even at those mills that are USDA licensed. The mills do not get inspected enough, nor are millers given incentive to clean up their act."

http://www.barkrescue.net/puppymills.htm

Hopefully you will rethink your claim about Pet Stores. You may think you are playing devil's advocate, but in reality I think you just need to do a little more research.


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## Celt

Yes, research can lower the chances of finding a less than ideal situation. And I wasn't talking about a "poor" temperment so much as one that just wouldn't interact well with your life. Especially as many times the breeder "chooses" the pup for you or you choose when the pup has yet to develop much, if any, of a personality. 
There are the (extremely) few pet shops that do have pups that have had DNA testing and health screenings

Yes the majority of certified "kennels" are horrid places, but there are a few that are not. I've seen 2 such kennels. The dogs were kept in indoor/outdoor runs, there was a "yard" available for exercise. Actually they looked alot like the better quality shelters.


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## BrownieM

Celt said:


> Yes, research can lower the chances of finding a less than ideal situation. And I wasn't talking about a "poor" temperment so much as one that just wouldn't interact well with your life. Especially as many times the breeder "chooses" the pup for you or you choose when the pup has yet to develop much, if any, of a personality.


Temperament testing is used by many reputable breeders to match puppies to the appropriate owner, based on the puppy's temperament and what the buyer is looking for/needing temperament wise.


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## RawFedDogs

Back in my dog training days, I could always tell that a dog or puppy I was working with had been bought at a petshop. I don't remember ever seeing a healthy, well behaved dog that came from a petshop and I saw thousands of dogs.


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## wags

Puppy stores they are just so dog gone cute. In their little wire bottom cages its so sad to think of there situation. They never asked to be there. They never wanted to be born to a puppy mill breeder. just so unfair. But if we give in and purchase that puppy it makes room for another puppy mill puppy and the process never stops. And their are many people who just don't get it. I myself have done this ugh! Lived and learned! Won't do that again! We all make that mistake of looking at that cute little tiny puppy so sweet~that unforgettable face~ but we forget if we keep doing the buying from these pet shops,we never will get rid of the problem, them the pet store selling the puppy mill puppy. These puppies I know by me will eventualy go to the shelters. and if you really want that certain puppy go to the shelter the pup will end up there. I dont know if these places will ever go out of business heck my neighbors daughter newly married just bought a puppy from a puppymill pet shop. I dont advocate these places at all. So if people would just think about what and where these beautiful puppies come from well maybe just maybe someday the place will have to close down! And all breeding will be done with good breeders! My fingers are crossed!


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## AmeliaPond

I'm sorry...but to me there is *NEVER* a good reason to get a dog from a pet shop (unless we're talking about rescue events at places like Petsmart.)

Searching petfinder.com can usually come up with tons of dogs in the area.

Although for me, personally, I like "mutts."


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## Caty M

I don't see a reason ever to buy a pet store dog. Where I live a sheltie MIX from a pet store is more expensive than from a reputable breeder anyway. I saw a "sheltie" that I asked to hold at a Petland and was informed that although the tag on the window said "pure bred sheltie" it was actually 3/4 sheltie and 1/4 pomeranian. The dog was $1700. The sheltie pups from breeders at the Canadian Kennel Club show that I went to had waitlists for their dogs, but were in the $1000-$1400 range.. for a dog who is health and temperament tested. The staff at Petland wouldn't even give me health information on the parents because that is "confidential information". But of course they said "the parents are only top quality dogs with good health".. yeah right! 

I personally got my dog from working sheep herding dogs.. The parents are indoor pets but the owners do a breeding when they need another dog. I liked knowing that the dogs are being worked the way they are bred to and have their original instincts. The parents are also very healthy as well as they have to be to run all day..


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## Herzo

I'll have to say I like to never say never.But I don't think I would ever buy from a pet store.I have gotten 2 of my Bassets from a breeder that probably wouldn't be considered a real good breeder.Though his place was spotless.He had the dogs in kennels with runs and his corrals were racked I mean racked I don't do that.The next time I get a Basset I'm going to a good breeder.Even though I'm going to have to lie about how much it will cost because people here don't understand that.I will say that there is always going to be at least back yard breeders.I don't really think there is anything bad about that if they are taken care of properly.Because I don't care what anyone says some people just can't pay $1000 or more for a puppy, and I don't think it's fare to say they can't afford to have a dog.Some people can put it out a little bit at a time not all at once.So someone has to breed dogs that aren't so expensive.And I have 2 from the shelter.And one is the most expensive dogs I have ever had.So sometimes if they can't afford a dog they may not be able to afford one from there.But I really hope they get the standard up because I want all puppy mills put out of business ASAP.


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## xxshaelxx

Celt said:


> Affording a dog and being able to afford several visits to breeders to find a pup are vastly different.


I'd rather be able to afford several visits to the breeder to know I'm getting a healthy, guaranteed, lively pup, rather than being able to afford a poor soul that's likely to develop upper respiratory problems from being in a small, cramped kennel for much of its childhood, poorly bred, genetic problems puppy.



Celt said:


> There are the (extremely) few pet shops that do have pups that have had DNA testing and health screenings


Does this not go back to your argument of finding an ethical breeder locally? Many, many, many, MANY (most) people do not have these kinds of pet stores in their area, if they even exist... On top of that, they're STILL not getting the proper socialization that is preferable in puppies. I want a pup that's going to be introduced to other dogs and to cats and children and all numbers of situations, including being cuddled and held, because despite my dogs' weights of 34# and 47#, I still pick them up and cuddle them ALL the time, and they have gotten used to it.


As has been said, by getting a puppy from a pet store, you're only advocating for the continuation of bad breeding.


And Herzo, it's called saving up. I saved up for both of my dogs, rather than going and buying a cheaper dog to get one sooner.


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## luvMyBRT

Celt said:


> Affording a dog and being able to afford several visits to breeders to find a pup are vastly different.


How is it vastly different? If you can't afford a trip to see/meet/pick up a puppy what makes you think that you can afford and properly care for a dog? For a lifetime? Also, like Amanda said....if you know your wanting to take a couple trips you can always save up some money. 



> Travelling one time 900 miles would probably be very doable for most people, but what happens if you get to the breeder and find it to be a "high volume" breeder or that the pup doesn't have the "personality" to fit into your life.


Like BrownieM said do your homework! Email and talk to the breeder extensively before making a visit. Talk on the phone. Ask for the breeder to send you test results, etc. Call SEVERAL breeders and have a list of questions you ask. Compare answers. Join breed specific forums. Talk to people who already have the breed your interested in and ask questions. Let me tell you.....the world of Black Russian Terriers is a small world. I learned so much by joining a forum and meeting people and asking as many questions as I could. There are many things and steps you can take to minimize the chance of traveling 900 miles to see a breeder and then have it turn out to be a waste of time.

People think that going out and getting a puppy should be a quick fix. Well, it's not. It takes time.....and a lot of time, especially if your looking for a specific breed/puppy. That's why shelters are FULL of dogs and puppies because people don't realize what they need to be doing if they truly are wanting and capable of adding a dog to their home.

You've got the puppy mills and back yard breeders and kennels (like the ones that pet stores use) just breeding dogs with NO concept of health, temperament and testing. Then you have the irresponsible/under educated person (when it comes to dogs) who runs out and just gets what ever puppy or dog LOOKS cute and strikes their fancy. This is a very, very bad mix and the poor innocent puppy/dog is the one who really suffers.


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## CavePaws

Seriously, if you want to do something good for the dogs in this world go to your local shelter and see what it's like being stuck in there. Dogs go crazy being confined like that. You'll be saving a dogs life most likely, it's rare that a dog get's out of there alive or without being somewhat traumatized by something.

While I agree that your heart is in the right place about helping puppies in need, I don't think you're thinking about the hundreds of thousands of dogs in need in shelters who are going to be put on death row inevitably. 

Why get a purebred if you're not going to show them in conformation?


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## xxshaelxx

CavePaws said:


> Why get a purebred if you're not going to show them in conformation?


I'm sorry, CavePaws, but that statement is kind of offensive to the many people who HAVE purebred dogs and don't show them. We're not all looking for a purebred dog for the purpose of showing or breeding. Purebred dogs offer the best possibilities for the right personality that you're looking for, the right health and temperament tests, etc. I hope I don't sound rude here, because I'm trying not to be, but I just wanted to point this out. I have nothing against mutts, but I love, love, love my two purebred Siberian Huskies, and I'd never trade them in for the world, and in time, I'd LOVE to get more.


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## DaneMama

I agree with what has been said so far, there is no reason to buy dogs from pet stores. 

Cavepaws- people like purebred dogs. We wouldn't have them if not. While not every member of a breed may fit the breed standard disposition and temperament but there's a good chance that most will. Getting a purebred dog helps people know what they're getting into, how to handle the dog, how to work it, care for it, etc. With a mutt, you really don't have much information on what you're getting in a dog. I'm a breed snob through and through, obviously. There are still breed specific rescue organizations that need just as much as any large shelter.


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## CavePaws

I have nothing against purebreds. I love them and teach many. I'm planning on my next dog being a purebred from a good breeder. What I'm saying is you can also get a purebred from the shelter...I don't see how buying a purebred from a high volume breeder like the ones who sell to petstores helps out much in the world of dogs...
Just saying.

I don't mean to offend anyone who owns a purebred. I have tons of friends with purebreds and I love their dogs. I'm seriously not one of those people who discriminates because of breed or mixes or whatever. I honestly don't care what people have as long as it's well taken care of.

Saying that you don't know what you are getting into with a mixed breed is entirely false. Look at the dogs personality and you'll figure it out, do a temperament test. Seriously just because you're buying a purebred dog doesn't mean they'll fit the "personality standard".

a. I never said I dislike purebred dogs. b. I never said anyone else didn't like purebred dogs. c. I suggested a way for you to get a purebred dog from a shelter.


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## luvMyBRT

I'm a breed snob too. :becky:


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## MissusMac

CavePaws said:


> *I have nothing against purebreds. I love them and teach many. I'm planning on my next dog being a purebred from a good breeder. What I'm saying is you can also get a purebred from the shelter...I don't see how buying a purebred from a high volume breeder like the ones who sell to petstores helps out much in the world of dogs...
> Just saying.*
> 
> I don't mean to offend anyone who owns a purebred. I have tons of friends with purebreds and I love their dogs. I'm seriously not one of those people who discriminates because of breed or mixes or whatever. I honestly don't care what people have as long as it's well taken care of.


Didn't you read what Shael said? We want to know the history of our pups, health and temperament of the pup as well as the parents and so on. Most purebreds at shelter's don't come with that.


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## CavePaws

Alright, if the history of the dog matters more to someone than the current temperament then I guess that's their thing. Get a vet to check the dog out for health problems. I'm not a breed snob so I'll leave it at that and butt out. 

I honestly don't understand why you're all "breed snobs"? What do you mean by that? You don't like mixed breeds? Natalie I thought you owned a mixed breed, I'm sure you love her as much as the others, right?


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## AmeliaPond

I'm a "mutt" snob. 

I've owned one purebred (my family had a weim when I was in high school/college) and I did love her.

However...I will NEVER go looking for purebred.

Just a personal preference, of course.

I couldn't care less about my dog's parents or bloodline. She's a good dog and any "bad" habits she had when we got her (she was 1.5 years old) have been broken. Although, she didn't have many bad habits to begin with so there wasn't much to do.


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## luvMyBRT

CavePaws said:


> Seriously just because you're buying a purebred dog doesn't mean they'll fit the "personality standard".


If you do your homework and find a good, honest, ethical breeder who knows their lines and knows what they are doing you have a pretty good chance of getting a purebred dog that fits the personality standard. Now, I'm not saying it's for sure 100%, but a much greater chance then getting a pure bred from a shelter whom you know nothing about it's history/breeding/lines/parents/grandparents/etc, etc, etc.


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## luvMyBRT

To me a breed snob is someone who prefers a certain breed over another. Nothing personal, so don't take it that way.

Natalie prefers Danes.....I prefer BRTs, etc.


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## CavePaws

luvMyBRT said:


> To me a breed snob is someone who prefers a certain breed over another. Nothing personal, so don't take it that way.
> 
> Natalie prefers Danes.....I prefer BRTs, etc.


I get that I suppose...I thought you guys meant you don't like mixed breeds and I was like, "well no wonder I got freaking jumped on for this."
I have my favorites in the purebred dog world as well. I wouldn't call either of you "snobs" lol.

Honestly, I'd rather no one insinuated that I dislike purebreds or think people shouldn't own them or buy them. I never said that. I wouldn't say that. I sometimes wonder why people care so much about dog breeds and standards and confirmation and whatever when they aren't showing their dogs in confirmation. But, now I understand. You'd rather know who the parents are, blood lines from way back when, and know the temperament of the parents.

HOWEVER. I think it was entirely wrong of me to say that it's just things like confirmation. People like having retrievers and GSPs for hunting. Dog breeds are wonderful, if they weren't they wouldn't be around. Dogs are mans best friend and we've bred them for certain purposes. Generally, all breeds have a purpose...I completely agree about that and how you really want a breed with that certain temperament. I really want an Australian Kelpie...Who knows. >_> I might become a "breed snob" once I get my hands on one.  You bet I'll be looking for ages, doing my homework, and actually driving to go pick the pup up and investigate where she/he is coming from. Oh, and one of the reasons I want a Kelpie is not for conformation, but for herding and agility. :]


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## AmeliaPond

I guess I don't really get it. Don't all dogs, purebred/mixed, have to LEARN good behaviors and such? So why does it really matter?? It's not like a purebred pup is going to be better behaved than a mixed pup.

I guess the idea of being a breed snob is just a total foreign concept to me.


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## CavePaws

AmeliaPond, yes dogs have to learn behaviors but a lot of the time a purebred will inherently know or be predisposed to doing certain things because of the way they were bred. I totally get people getting certain breeds because they like them or they want the dog to have a job. 

My mixed breeds have a lot of behaviors you exhibit in purebred retrievers and herding dogs. They have tons of different things they excel at so sometimes I feel like I've gotten the best of all sorts of worlds. My mixed breeds however do come with their faults as well. Not saying at all that mixed breeds don't have faults.


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## luvMyBRT

AmeliaPond said:


> I guess I don't really get it. Don't all dogs, purebred/mixed, have to LEARN good behaviors and such? So why does it really matter?? It's not like a purebred pup is going to be better behaved than a mixed pup.
> 
> I guess the idea of being a breed snob is just a total foreign concept to me.


A dogs genetic make up can play a huge role in adult behavior. 

While all dogs and puppies require socializing and training, temperament plays a big role. Until you've seen or had a dog with a bad genetic make up/temperament you won't understand how important it is.

And everyone just needs to relax about the whole "breed snob"....it's nothing more than having a personal preference for a certain breed. Nothing personal to anyone.


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## CavePaws

Trust me I understand how genetics play a GIANT role in temperament...Indi tells me everyday. She's just like her mother in a lot of ways, I see so many similarities it's a little scary and uncanny at times. And trust me Indi definitely did not inherit the greater parts of her moms temperament (not that I ever saw any really, she hated me and all people. D


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## magicre

BrownieM said:


> Also, buying puppies from pet stores only helps keep these establishments open and fuels the puppy mills. I don't feel nearly as bad for the puppy in the pet store who has some hope to escape as I do for the mommy who is kept in a dark kennel, having litter after litter after litter...


i absolutely agree with you...and, yet....and yet...i see those faces in those cages, those dirty cages and i just want them out of there.....it's a knee jerk reaction.....for sure....

the one thing i know is going on nationwide, is, there are movements closing these stores down...when i first moved here, there were plenty of puppy stores.....now, i think there might be one....

and i think this is happening all over the country....

but a back yard breeder who is doing this for pure profit is no better...they just don't have a storefront. : (


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## Celt

First temperment testing is a very good thing, but what happens if the breeder's idea of what would fit in your family doesn't match yours. Usually this means losing your deposit because you didn't agree with their choice. Or how about the ones who "assign" (not the word I want, but...) a pup within days of its birth.
I agree that research should be mandatory but in the more "popular" breeds, would you be able to shifted through to find anything other than the very worse. Afterall, the larger the group, the less likely everyone will know someone.
As for saving up to buy a pup, that is probably something anyone wanting a purebred puppy would have to do, but would it be reasonable to expect a person to save the equivalent to the down payment for a house?

RawFedDogs-My golden is a "petshop puppy". Never had any health or behavior issues with him. (No, we didn't buy him. He was a gift.)
AmeliaPond-I checked out petfinder, using my breed of choice, and the closest was under 500 miles away and of the first 50 dogs, only 10 were purebred. 
xxshaelxx-Actually my "arguement" was if it there were no local breeders (ethical or otherwise) would a "reputable" pet shop be an alternative to get the breed of your choice. Afterall, you would be able to physically examine the pup before taking it home, unlike when you purchase over the 'net.


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## CavePaws

Celt said:


> First temperment testing is a very good thing, but what happens if the breeder's idea of what would fit in your family doesn't match yours. Usually this means losing your deposit because you didn't agree with their choice. Or how about the ones who "assign" (not the word I want, but...) a pup within days of its birth.
> I agree that research should be mandatory but in the more "popular" breeds, would you be able to shifted through to find anything other than the very worse. Afterall, the larger the group, the less likely everyone will know someone.
> As for saving up to buy a pup, that is probably something anyone wanting a purebred puppy would have to do, but would it be reasonable to expect a person to save the equivalent to the down payment for a house?
> 
> RawFedDogs-My golden is a "petshop puppy". Never had any health or behavior issues with him. (No, we didn't buy him. He was a gift.)
> AmeliaPond-I checked out petfinder, using my breed of choice, and the closest was under 500 miles away and of the first 50 dogs, only 10 were purebred.
> xxshaelxx-Actually my "arguement" was if it there were no local breeders (ethical or otherwise) would a "reputable" pet shop be an alternative to get the breed of your choice. Afterall, you would be able to physically examine the pup before taking it home, unlike when you purchase over the 'net.


Consider when the dog gets older, they might be predisposed to hip dysplasia and you would never know until they're older. I do agree there are some benefits to seeing the parents and asking if there have ever been problems with the parents and grand parents and if so, what kind?

edit: And honestly I do apologize for questioning why someone would want a purebred dog for anything but conformation. When I thought about all the other purposes purebred dogs serve I was like, "DUH. Idiot" and nearly went *head - table* And then I was thinking, "well...I do want a kelpie for something other than conformation...boy do I sound like a hypocrite right now!"

And I will be thoroughly investigating parents and how the pups from the other litters turned out when I do get a dog...I've experienced far too many temperament problems with all of my dogs -due mostly to genetics-


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## AmeliaPond

Celt said:


> First temperment testing is a very good thing, but what happens if the breeder's idea of what would fit in your family doesn't match yours. Usually this means losing your deposit because you didn't agree with their choice. Or how about the ones who "assign" (not the word I want, but...) a pup within days of its birth.
> I agree that research should be mandatory but in the more "popular" breeds, would you be able to shifted through to find anything other than the very worse. Afterall, the larger the group, the less likely everyone will know someone.
> As for saving up to buy a pup, that is probably something anyone wanting a purebred puppy would have to do, but would it be reasonable to expect a person to save the equivalent to the down payment for a house?
> 
> RawFedDogs-My golden is a "petshop puppy". Never had any health or behavior issues with him. (No, we didn't buy him. He was a gift.)
> AmeliaPond-I checked out petfinder, using my breed of choice, and the closest was under 500 miles away and of the first 50 dogs, only 10 were purebred.
> xxshaelxx-Actually my "arguement" was if it there were no local breeders (ethical or otherwise) would a "reputable" pet shop be an alternative to get the breed of your choice. Afterall, you would be able to physically examine the pup before taking it home, unlike when you purchase over the 'net.


I guess I don't understand what's wrong with getting a mixed one from a shelter if it looks like a purebred, if you aren't concerned about it's parents and whatnot? If you aren't going to know every aspect from it's history from a shelter...you probably wouldn't from one of these so-called "reputable" pet shops either. So if it has the appearance you like and if you meet it and it has a personality you like...does it matter if it's purebred or not?


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## AmeliaPond

So reading through the posts in this thread from self-proclaimed "breed snobs"...it doesn't really sound like you just prefer a specific breed. It's more that you like a specific breed AND you want to know all about it's history/parents history. Correct? If that's the case it sound more like you're a "breeder snob" since it's a lot to do with where the dog comes from and not just what breed it is.


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## Celt

You know, I hear alot of people talking about how many purebred dogs are in shelters but the one we have here almost never has any and the few they do get are the "major" breeds around here. 

AmeliaPond-One reason to get a purebred dog is to get a specific look, temperment or ability. A rather old saying: You can't teach a dog to herd is quite true if a dog doesn't have the natural inclination you'll never get a herding dog, and this is true for many other "skills". I don't see a problem with getting a "look alike" mix but if it's not available then your options narrow dramatically.
CavePaws-I wouldn't have any more knowledge of a pups' parents if I got it from a shelter or rescue than I would have from a petshop. Hmm, might even have less. You could always google the breeder's info from the registration papers to get an idea of where the pup came from.


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## BrownieM

I will always be a "breed snob" meaning I prefer standard poodles above all other breeds. The primary reason for this is because I am allergic to dogs and Standard Poodles are the only large breed dog I have found the ability to live with without bothering my asthma. And now that I have lived with poodles for so long, I just don't think I could have another breed 

If I wasn't planning on getting my next poodle to show in conformation, I would consider getting one from A) Responsible breeder or B) Poodle rescue. 

Some people cannot have mutts because of 1)Needing/wanting a specific breed for breed characteristics (maybe they want to do performance events, agility or have special needs with their family) OR allergies, plain and simple. If I wasn't allergic to dogs, I would totally adopt a mutt at some point! I think that rescue is a wonderful choice and is the best choice in some, but not all, circumstances. However, sometimes finding a reputable breeder is the best fit.


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## CavePaws

...I don't think agility has much to do with breeds. I've seen mixed breeds whooping purebred butt and vise versa. That's something that strikes such a nerve with me and I'll never get over it. Ever. There are so many snobs in the agility world that are so into their Border Collies and think Border Collies are the only dogs that excel and blah blah blah.

I have a mixed breed who excels at agility and has a ton of natural talent. I've had snobs tell me that my dog is limited because of her lineage and quite frankly I would have loved to smack them over the head with a brick.

Do agree that there are many limitations with people who have allergies. ]: But since you love poodles that isn't much of a problem now is it, BrownieM. 

OH. And the AKC is finally letting mixed breeds compete...At first they weren't even allowed to compete in AKC at all, then it was they could only compete against other mixed breeds, now they are finally "equal" (in a way) I honestly think the only reason behind AKC letting mixed breeds compete is more money.


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## luvMyBRT

AmeliaPond said:


> So reading through the posts in this thread from self-proclaimed "breed snobs"...it doesn't really sound like you just prefer a specific breed. It's more that you like a specific breed AND you want to know all about it's history/parents history. Correct? If that's the case it sound more like you're a "breeder snob" since it's a lot to do with where the dog comes from and not just what breed it is.


Are we really wanting to get this technical?? Really? 

If someone is wanting to get a puppy from a ethical breeder knowing the puppies history and lines is a very important part! 

Sheesh!


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## CavePaws

Lol. Things can get so heated so fast. :[

We should throw some ice on this thread and let it chill.


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## MissusMac

Miko is the first purebred dog I've ever had, and my "heart dog" growing up was a collie/golden mix. Now that I have a husky I will probably always have huskies, but in the future I will always rescue or choose from ethical breeders, but that would only be if I want to raise another puppy (which I don't foresee). If only wanting huskies makes me a breed snob, then I guess I am. 

Cavepaws- No one would insinuate that you think people shouldn't own or buy purebreds if you hadn't made the initial comment saying something to that affect. It's NBD, we all have foot-in-mouth moments :smile:


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## CavePaws

I didn't think I said anything close to the effect of "I dislike purebred dogs and don't think anyone should buy or own one" :/
I said why get one if you're not going to do conformation. It was a total foot in my mouth statement, but I never ever said anything related to disliking purebreds or thinking no one should own them.
I honestly don't know what I was trying to say with that statement. Something I honestly didn't mean when I really thought it over.


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## DaneMama

Cavepaws- I'm glad you've backtracked a bit and see what we are talking about. Sara said it perfectly, as breed snobs we prefer one breed more than any other...not that we don't like anything but out favorite. I have two mutts and I love them just as much as any of our Danes. I may love them differently but no less. 

I used to be just like you...one that was drawn to mutts and that's why I got Emmy. Not until I bought my house and started doing homework on dog breeds did I choose the Dane and got one. Ever since then I've been a convert. Are all of my Danes from breeders? Yes. But I give back to the dog community by donating my time and money doing more than the average person that goes to the shelter to adopt. Most people go get their new dog and that's it. Don't get me wrong, that fact is wonderful. I just wish more would give back to the rescue effort more than that. Volunteer, do homechecks, raise money, raise awareness, join a cause. 

This is what I do. I donate time each week doing rescue stuff from homechecks to working with shelter/rescue animals. My life revovles around dogs...I love them all (mostly LOL). I wouldn't be training to be a CPDT if I didn't love them all! Just today I was working with a IG puppy training to become a peanut detection dog. Would I ever own an IG? Nope, I don't prefer the breed. But I loved that little girl...she and I were making some really good progress today (she needs a LOT of work) :wink:

I can't believe you've never heard the term "breed snob" before LOL! Don't take it literally :thumb:


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## BrownieM

Celt said:


> First temperment testing is a very good thing, but what happens if the breeder's idea of what would fit in your family doesn't match yours. Usually this means losing your deposit because you didn't agree with their choice. Or how about the ones who "assign" (not the word I want, but...) a pup within days of its birth.


Some reputable breeders would offer you a replacement puppy from the same litter or a different litter if the personality of the puppy does not fit your family. Also, professional temperament testing does tend to be pretty accurate. Finally, I have not heard of any reputable breeders (at least standard poodle breeders) that will determine a puppy's owner within a few days of its birth. And this is because of the very reason that you state. You simply don't know at that age. A reputable breeder will not be able to determine show prospects from those that will go to pet homes at only a few days old. They won't be able to tell who has a high prey drive from those who have a relaxed temperament. In fact, temperament testing has a specific age range where it is supposed to be conducted.



Celt said:


> I agree that research should be mandatory but in the more "popular" breeds, would you be able to shifted through to find anything other than the very worse. Afterall, the larger the group, the less likely everyone will know someone.


Not exactly sure what you are trying to say here. But I do know that poodles are one of the most popular breeds (believe it or not :wink and it is very possible to research and discern the good breeders from the bad breeders. Especially with the help of online breed specific forums, the breed club's breeder referral program, and word of mouth.



Celt said:


> As for saving up to buy a pup, that is probably something anyone wanting a purebred puppy would have to do, but would it be reasonable to expect a person to save the equivalent to the down payment for a house?


It doesn't matter if you are rescuing a mutt from a shelter or buying a purebred from a reputable breeder, you need to be able to afford whatever it takes. Even if that means saving up.



Celt said:


> xxshaelxx-Actually my "arguement" was if it there were no local breeders (ethical or otherwise) would a "reputable" pet shop be an alternative to get the breed of your choice. Afterall, you would be able to physically examine the pup before taking it home, unlike when you purchase over the 'net.


There is no "reputable" pet shop. Supporting a puppy mills is never an acceptable or ethical choice. Purchasing over the 'net often involves purchasing from puppy mills as well. If a website enables you to actually buy the puppy through the website, you are buying from a puppy mill.


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## Celt

CavePaws--I didn't feel you were saying that either. It seemed more a well conformation seems to be the main reason to have a purebred dog so why get one if you're not doing that kinda thing to me. It's probably one of those comments that sounds better in your head rather than outloud.


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## BrownieM

CavePaws said:


> ...I don't think agility has much to do with breeds. I've seen mixed breeds whooping purebred butt and vise versa. That's something that strikes such a nerve with me and I'll never get over it. Ever. There are so many snobs in the agility world that are so into their Border Collies and think Border Collies are the only dogs that excel and blah blah blah.
> 
> I have a mixed breed who excels at agility and has a ton of natural talent. I've had snobs tell me that my dog is limited because of her lineage and quite frankly I would have loved to smack them over the head with a brick.
> 
> Do agree that there are many limitations with people who have allergies. ]: But since you love poodles that isn't much of a problem now is it, BrownieM.
> 
> OH. And the AKC is finally letting mixed breeds compete...At first they weren't even allowed to compete in AKC at all, then it was they could only compete against other mixed breeds, now they are finally "equal" (in a way) I honestly think the only reason behind AKC letting mixed breeds compete is more money.


Uh, agility _totally_ has to do with breeds. Let's say I wanted to do hardcore agility. I would likely choose a miniature poodle as opposed to a standard poodle. Same breed (remember, allergies here, LOL) but major differences with energy level, and drive to do these activities. Just imagine the differences among different breeds. 

Compare an agile, energetic miniature poodle to a Saint Bernard or Great Pyrenees. See where I am going here? :wink:

I am not saying that a mixed breed wouldn't excel at agility. There is a body type and temperament as well as energy level that are necessary, though, for excelling at agility.


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## DaneMama

I think the way people interpreted your comment about purebreds and conformation made it sound like you believe that there's no point to owning a purebred dog unless you're showing in conformation. At least that's the way I interpreted it.


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## CavePaws

LOL. Well I felt like a total a** when I really thought about what that statement meant to everyone with a purebred dog. :[ I seriously did not mean to offend anyone.

I want a Kelpie so badly. There are so many things I love about them, including the coloring. I'm completely in love with dogs who look like this.









BrownieM, I've seen Huskies excel at agility like no other and they're supposedly supposed to have an independent personality? I've seen Rottweilers excel at agility and Great Danes and Staffordshire Terriers and they're not all built for agility. I don't think it's in the breed, I think it's in the temperament and perhaps in their conformation. I've seen Border Collies who do not excel, I've seen Border Collies who are absolutely amazing. Look at the World Team and all you really see are Border Collies, Shelties, and Australian Shepherds. I think that is mostly because a lot of people who are serious about agility pick a purebred dog to compete with. If you think that a lightening fast dog is the only way you can be seriously competitive at agility then you are sorely mistaken. Agility has so much more to consider than lightening speed, it has so much to do with handler capability, and the accuracy of your dog. It has even more to do with the amount of time and training you put into it. Frankly, you get out of it what you put into it.


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## BrownieM

CavePaws said:


> LOL. Well I felt like a total a** when I really thought about what that statement meant to everyone with a purebred dog. :[ I seriously did not mean to offend anyone.
> 
> I want a Kelpie so badly. There are so many things I love about them, including the coloring. I'm completely in love with dogs who look like this.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> BrownieM, I've seen Huskies excel at agility like no other and they're supposedly supposed to have an independent personality? I've seen Rottweilers excel at agility and Great Danes and Staffordshire Terriers and they're not all built for agility. I don't think it's in the breed, I think it's in the temperament and perhaps in their conformation. I've seen Border Collies who do not excel, I've seen Border Collies who are absolutely amazing. Look at the World Team and all you really see are Border Collies, Shelties, and Australian Shepherds. I think that is mostly because a lot of people who are serious about agility pick a purebred dog to compete with. If you think that a lightening fast dog is the only way you can be seriously competitive at agility then you are sorely mistaken. Agility has so much more to do with lightening speed, it has so much to do with handler capability, and the accuracy of your dog. It has even more to do with the amount of time and training you put into it. Frankly, you get out of it what you put into it.


There are exceptions, of course, and it is not a hard and fast rule. But, I maintain my argument that there are still breeds that are more likely to excel at agility. Think about it...if you want an agility dog but are torn between a miniature poodle or a Great Pyrenees, which dog are you going to get? And while not all Border Collies and not all Miniature Poodles are great at agility, they sure do make damn good candidates!

It's just like anything else. Certain conformational structures and personalities are going to excel more easily at any given sport. This is why someone might choose a particular breed for agility, for livestock guarding or for any type of performance.

This doesn't mean that other breeds can't do these activities too or excel at them. It is just a legitimate reason why someone might choose one breed over another breed.


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## CavePaws

Obviously if I want a dog who is more capable of withstanding the impact to their legs and faster than a great Pyrenees I'm going to pick a miniature poodle...I however am not a small dog kind of person. So I might just pick the Great Pyrenees...And we had a Great Pyrenees sign up for our beginners agility class. I can get back to you sometime on just how accurate that dog becomes.

There are many many many exceptions to the argument that certain breeds produce better agility dogs than others, honestly, I don't think you get a sure fire agility dog from any breed unless you put the time and effort into it.

edit: Agility is about accuracy more than anything. You can have a blistering fast time in a competition but it doesn't matter if you miss one contact, an up or a down contact, knock a bar, have an off course. Accuracy is the way to go. Any dog can maintain accuracy if trained well enough.

And yes, it does effect the way people pick dogs. There is a "stereotype" to every breed unfortunately and when someone see's a Sheltie on the world team and thinks they can just go get one and it will turn out that great then they really need to reconsider what they plan on putting into that dog.


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## BrownieM

CavePaws said:


> There are many many many exceptions to the argument that certain breeds produce better agility dogs than others, honestly, I don't think you get a sure fire agility dog from any breed unless you put the time and effort into it.
> 
> edit: Agility is about accuracy more than anything. You can have a blistering fast time in a competition but it doesn't matter if you miss one contact, an up or a down contact, knock a bar, have an off course. Accuracy is the way to go. Any dog can maintain accuracy if trained well enough.


I'm not disagreeing that many dogs of different breeds can excel at agility. I am trying to say that someone who strictly wants a dog for agility, and I am thinking along the lines of getting advanced titles here, they are probably going to choose certain breeds over others. And my point of ever using this argument was simply to state why someone might choose a certain breed. The breed standard of certain dogs means that they are better at certain activities than others. This is a *fact* and this is why someone would choose a breed over another breed.


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## CavePaws

I would agree with what you are saying that it is the breed standard so many people look at. But I don't believe in any way shape or form that a dog is limited in agility competitions by their breed. Maybe you won't see a Mastiff on the world team, but you can probably find a mastiff with an ADCH and MACH title. 

Did you know that advanced agility titles are not based on you competing with others? It's how many qualifying rounds you get in a certain number of things...Any dog can do it if they trial long enough.

Now dogs on the world team are picked via their titles, percentage of Qualifying rounds vs. NQs, accuracy in practice, handler ability, and speed. Speed is a big part of it when you get to the tippy tippy top but so many people are crippled by their dogs speed. There are good and bad qualities to every breed and mixed breed, and all I'm saying is that just because you have Breed A. doesn't mean you have a wonderful agility dog.

I'd say a good portion of my life is spent doing agility, teaching agility classes, and going to agility seminars. It is something I am extremely passionate about and I probably won't change my opinion about this any time soon.


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## BrownieM

CavePaws said:


> I would agree with what you are saying that it is the breed standard so many people look at. But I don't believe in any way shape or form that a dog is limited in agility competitions by their breed. Maybe you won't see a Mastiff on the world team, but you can probably find a mastiff with an ADCH and MACH title.
> 
> Did you know that advanced agility titles are not based on you competing with others? It's how many qualifying rounds you get in a certain number of things...Any dog can do it if they trial long enough.


I'm not sure exactly where you are trying to go here. You seem to be set on arguing the exception. Sure, all breeds can do agility and excel, but there are still breeds that, as a whole, based on their temperament, conformation, drive, energy and ability for physical activity are going to be better choices for agility. A certain type of dog is going to excel at agility and certain breeds have more dogs with these characteristics than other breeds, period.


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## CavePaws

Where I am trying to go here is that you seemed to be saying in your first post that only certain breeds excel in agility. That is not the case. I'm not sure you knew of how titles in agility work when you started talking about dogs getting titles and competing competitively. Maybe you meant dogs getting into the world team? I agreed with you that temperament and conformation can be a role in this already. Obviously a dog jumping 26" who is heavy set is going to have a more limited career health wise than slighter dog.

But so are breeds who are predisposed to joint and hip problems. And that includes A LOT of breeds that seem to be popular in agility.


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## BrownieM

Also, my first example should have made my point clear but somehow it didn't. I used the standard poodle vs. miniature poodle because these dogs tend to do pretty decent in agility. However, in general, a miniature poodle might do better because, in general, they have more drive, energy, etc. than a standard poodle. Many poodle owners will choose a mini for this reason. These *tendencies* exist in certain breeds over other breeds, as well. Whether or not you continue to argue the exceptions and the ability for any breed to excel, it doesn't change the fact that people will choose certain breeds for certain sports.  Which was the *original* *point*.


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## BrownieM

CavePaws, I think you are taking things a little too personally today. :wink: You took this:



BrownieM said:


> Some people cannot have mutts because of 1)Needing/wanting a specific breed for breed characteristics (maybe they want to do performance events, agility or have special needs with their family) .


and interpreted it to mean that I am saying only certain breeds can excel at agility. I did not say that. And to clarify, I will reiterate, people do and will continue to choose certain purebred dogs to do certain sports and events, including, but not limited to agility.


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## 3Musketeers

BrownieM said:


> I'm not sure exactly where you are trying to go here. You seem to be set on arguing the exception. Sure, all breeds can do agility and excel, but there are still breeds that, as a whole, based on their temperament, conformation, drive, energy and ability for physical activity are going to be better choices for agility. A certain type of dog is going to excel at agility and certain breeds have more dogs with these characteristics than other breeds, period.


Paps are one of those breeds known to *excel* greatly at agility. My trio are a total klutz though, I'd get way too frustrated trying agility with them xD. I can already see it, bars knocked down all over and jumping off of the see-saws when it's still 10 feet in the air (they think they can fly!). *VERY* fast yes, they could probably outrun many dogs, but the speed isn't everything. ;P


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## CavePaws

Well if your original point would be that people will choose certain breeds for certain sports then I agree with you. I guess I'm an exception to that when it comes to my dogs. But like I said, I want a Kelpie for herding and agility. I'm picking the breed mainly for herding, as I know for a fact that a lot of dogs have absolutely no capability of herding...Herding to me is most definitely based on the breed. I'm just saying, agility is based on the dogs ability to perform in so many different ways that excelling in it is not limited to what breed you have. Yes some breeds are predisposed to having certain traits that may take them to the tippy top of the agility world but there are many exceptions to the breed so I'm not convinced for a second that it's based on the breed you choose.

I'm sort of burned out with arguing. I don't know that we will ever agree on this or not but does it really matter? No, people are entitled to their opinion.

I might be being a little bit crabby today. :[ You're definitely right about that BrownieM...Perhaps I should reconsider posting in arguments while I'm feeling so tired and am ready to explode because of frustration from my day. I'm sorry if it seems like I'm taking it out on you or other people. Lol, seems I've done a bang up job of looking like jerk today! :tape: Perhaps I should put some tape on my hands and get a tea and straw and go read a book. :tongue:


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## BrownieM

3Musketeers said:


> Paps are one of those breeds known to *excel* greatly at agility. My trio are a total klutz though, I'd get way too frustrated trying agility with them xD. I can already see it, bars knocked down all over and jumping off of the see-saws when it's still 10 feet in the air (they think they can fly!). *VERY* fast yes, they could probably outrun many dogs, but the speed isn't everything. ;P


I'm sure that's true. Poodles are supposed to be water dogs and retrievers but Henry won't go within ten feet of water and won't bring a ball back to me to save his life. But proving or disproving paps or border collies, or arguing about whether or not certain breeds can do agility, was *never* my point. CavePaws _zoned in_ on one tiny thing I said when trying to explain _why someone might decide to buy a purebred dog_ and went away with it.


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## BrownieM

CavePaws said:


> Well if your original point would be that people will choose certain breeds for certain sports then I agree with you. I guess I'm an exception to that when it comes to my dogs. But like I said, I want a Kelpie for herding and agility. I'm picking the breed mainly for herding, as I know for a fact that a lot of dogs have absolutely no capability of herding...Herding to me is most definitely based on the breed. I'm just saying, agility is based on the dogs ability to perform in so many different ways that excelling in it is not limited to what breed you have. Yes some breeds are predisposed to having certain traits that may take them to the tippy top of the agility world but there are many exceptions to the breed so I'm not convinced for a second that it's based on the breed you choose.
> 
> I'm sort of burned out with arguing. I don't know that we will ever agree on this or not but does it really matter? No, people are entitled to their opinion.


Really, you are arguing for no reason. My intention was never to argue whether or not certain specific breeds are good at certain specific sports. Just to explain why someone might choose a purebred dog. Whether or not you do this, many people do. Reread my post. Just relax. :smile:


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## CavePaws

I probably did get too carried away with it. <_< You have to understand how much I've been irritated by people telling me of the limitations my dog might have because she is competing against certain breeds. D:< It is so freaking aggravating...I hope you could understand that. I'm not trying to take it out on you. :[ I think I interpreted it a certain way and when I started thinking about it all my brain started to fry.

edit: And this thread was completely hijacked... D:! My bad. I think I might have started it, dang it.


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## Celt

And here I thought my thread line would get heated, thus the devil part :0P


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## CavePaws

Well...It certainly did get heated. O_O" I know my brain is pretty fried from the heat right now.
If you can't take the heat get out of the kitchen.
I think I need to take a step out of the kitchen.


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## AmeliaPond

BrownieM said:


> I will always be a "breed snob" meaning I prefer standard poodles above all other breeds. The primary reason for this is because I am allergic to dogs and Standard Poodles are the only large breed dog I have found the ability to live with without bothering my asthma. And now that I have lived with poodles for so long, I just don't think I could have another breed
> 
> If I wasn't planning on getting my next poodle to show in conformation, I would consider getting one from A) Responsible breeder or B) Poodle rescue.
> 
> Some people cannot have mutts because of 1)Needing/wanting a specific breed for breed characteristics (maybe they want to do performance events, agility or have special needs with their family) OR allergies, plain and simple. If I wasn't allergic to dogs, I would totally adopt a mutt at some point! I think that rescue is a wonderful choice and is the best choice in some, but not all, circumstances. However, sometimes finding a reputable breeder is the best fit.


I hadn't thought of the allergy thing. That makes sense to me.

I don't have dog allergies. I don't do agility stuff or showing. So for me, a purebred just isn't necessary. I do like the looks of some breeds more than others but that's about it. I'm only a "snob" about size and coat length....haha.

To the OP - so...what breed are you looking for?


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## RachelsaurusRexU

I'd like to make something clear; THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS A REPUTABLE PET STORE! Nobody but BYBs, puppy mills and the like would EVER allow their puppies to end up at a pet store. EVER. 

I work for animal control in a small town in CT and we end up with TONS of purebreds and "designer" breeds that people impulse-bought then dumped. (Guess what? Many of them were purchased at pet sores. We know because we track their microchips.) We've had Olde English Bulldogges, English Bulldogs, American Bulldogs, Boston Terriers, Yorkshire Terriers, Cairn Terriers, Rat Terriers, Welsh Terriers, Wheatens, Scotties, Westies, Chihuahuas, Danes, tons of Rotties and Labs, Goldens, Poodles, Chessies, Italian Greyhounds, Whippets, Beagles, Bassets, Redbone Coonhounds, Pointers, Border Collies, Aussies, Bordeauxs, English Mastiffs, Bullmastiffs, Springers, Cockers, Collies, Old English Sheepdogs, Pugs, Boxers, GSDs, Belgian Shepherds....we even had a Bouvier! Should I continue? Because I could honestly go on forever.

My point is...if I've seen all these breeds and more in a small municipal shelter in a small town in a small state and you can't find purebred dogs anywhere near where you live, you are not looking hard enough. 

If you love dogs, why on earth would you want to support the mistreatment and excessive breeding of them by purchasing one from a pet store? These places won't be shut down until people become aware of how horrid they truly are - and they ALL ARE, no matter how great the pet store looks. And my shelter, and shelters across the country will never cease to be overflowing with perfectly wonderful companions if people don't start making more educated decisions. If you truly love dogs, you'll think twice about supporting that disgusting, cruel, abusive industry. End of story.


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## Herzo

Well you leave for awhile and sometimes you miss allot.Going way back.XXShaelXX I know it's called saving, it's called getting older and smarter and not living from pay check to pay check.But sometimes when your young you do live that way.Shucks I've read on here people saying when they get there pay check they'll get something.I'm just saying there is a need for maybe a cheaper purbred dog.I would have never had my Bassets back 14 years ago if I had had to pay that much for a dog and I saved up.$225 for Abigail and her sister a year later $250 for Sidney.It doesn't sound like much now but it was to me then.We were buying property and you have to think about spaying and feeding.You may say we shouldn't have had the dogs but they were the world to us and we took good care of them and they were my world.I wouldn't have changed anything about them.So I'm just saying the need is there, and I'm not talking about puppy mills.But I don't think that because we couldn't pay that much then people should say we shouldn't have had the dogs.And I'll bet there are allot of people on here that couldn't pay that much ether.Should they not have dogs?Should they not rescue dogs?I'm very happy I'm not in that situation any more but why punish those that are?And I guess we could have gotten a free dog but we wanted another Basset.And I can't say that I haven't said it myself.When people can't pay to have there dogs spayed or neutered, OK they should have thought of that before they got the dog.So I do agree with you to a point.


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## SerenityFL

I've always liked German Shepards...and I've always like Jack Russell Terriers...and I've always like Border Collies...and I've always liked Basenjis...and I've always liked Italian Greyhounds...

But...while I could go and get one of those dogs from a reputable breeder...I always feel like I should save one from a shelter or save one from the streets. Frankly, I just like dogs. The dogs listed above? I've wanted them forever. Never had a single one. I've had three dogs now. One in Seattle and the two I have now.

Never once was I sorry I got them. I didn't know a thing about them, their history, their background and it was a decent guess as to what their mix was...(although with these two, I'm probably going to have to do a DNA test)...and while it may provide information on their temperament, their health issues, etc, I've found that I learn from them how to deal with them. 

I certainly do not begrudge anyone their choice of dog...I'm stating that I've never understood why it can only be one type of dog. Although, Brownie has pointed out allergies and that is a darn good reason...you're allergic but you still want a dog and lo and behold, you can have one. I get that.

I've wanted a German Shepard since I was a kid. I think they are such gorgeous things. But, in the meantime, there's thousands and thousands of other dogs that need a home, too, so, I get them, instead. 

As for pet stores themselves...I have only ever purchased one cat from a pet store. That's back when I didn't know any better. I had no intention of even getting a cat when I went in. I already had two. I was with my friend who was getting snake food and we passed by the cage with the kitties in it. One little black and white kitty reached out of that cage, grabbed my shirt sleeve and refused to let go. I thought about it for three days...I went back and got her.

Every other cat and dog has been a rescue...not from a rescue, I rescued them...from the streets. And not a single one has ever made me think I should have gone with the German Shepard, instead. I consider myself quite lucky to have found these animals for they have done more for me than I could ever have imagined. So, for me, breed just doesn't matter. I take them home, I give them the best I can, (and I'm not rich either so I really don't agree that only people with a certain amount of money should have pets....you should be able to get them fixed, get them their initial vaccinations, feed them, water them and take them for their check ups. The reason there is pet insurance is because a lot of people don't always have the money it takes when something drastic happens...), I do the best I can, and I mourn deeply when they pass. 

Are some easier to train than others? Yes. Do some have abilities that others do not? Of course. If I were running a farm, then yes of course I would go breed specific. If I were in law enforcement training for a K-9 police dog, yes, I'd be specific...although, they can get mutts as well. If I were training a dog as a service animal, I might be more specific...although they can get mutts as well...but for me, overall, while I might prefer certain breeds, what matters to me is that I've saved one and I did what I could to give them a happy life.

Again, you want what you want, you get what you want. I'm simply stating that I've never quite understood it. It doesn't mean I think anyone is wrong...do not read that from what I'm saying...I just never understood it.


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## Celt

RachelsaurusRexu- I didn't say that you couldn't find purebred dogs at our shelter but they're aren't very many and the few that are are limited in breed. Mostly you find pit bulls and chihuahuas with a sprinkling of poodles, an occassional lab, doberman or boxer. Although with the recent law passed, that might have changed. And I do believe that a location's appearance does indicate what kind of care an animal receives. I'm not saying that petshops should be a first option but I understand that if someone wants a specific breed, especially if they want a puppy, might not have as wide a "field" to shop in.


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## AmeliaPond

Herzo said:


> Well you leave for awhile and sometimes you miss allot.Going way back.XXShaelXX I know it's called saving, it's called getting older and smarter and not living from pay check to pay check.But sometimes when your young you do live that way.Shucks I've read on here people saying when they get there pay check they'll get something.I'm just saying there is a need for maybe a cheaper purbred dog.I would have never had my Bassets back 14 years ago if I had had to pay that much for a dog and I saved up.$225 for Abigail and her sister a year later $250 for Sidney.It doesn't sound like much now but it was to me then.We were buying property and you have to think about spaying and feeding.You may say we shouldn't have had the dogs but they were the world to us and we took good care of them and they were my world.I wouldn't have changed anything about them.So I'm just saying the need is there, and I'm not talking about puppy mills.But I don't think that because we couldn't pay that much then people should say we shouldn't have had the dogs.And I'll bet there are allot of people on here that couldn't pay that much ether.Should they not have dogs?Should they not rescue dogs?I'm very happy I'm not in that situation any more but why punish those that are?And I guess we could have gotten a free dog but we wanted another Basset.And I can't say that I haven't said it myself.When people can't pay to have there dogs spayed or neutered, OK they should have thought of that before they got the dog.So I do agree with you to a point.


I got my dog from a shelter. She only cost us $125. She was already spayed and up to date on all of her shots. She was also already microchipped.


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## BrownieM

Herzo said:


> Well you leave for awhile and sometimes you miss allot.Going way back.XXShaelXX I know it's called saving, it's called getting older and smarter and not living from pay check to pay check.But sometimes when your young you do live that way.Shucks I've read on here people saying when they get there pay check they'll get something.I'm just saying there is a need for maybe a cheaper purbred dog.I would have never had my Bassets back 14 years ago if I had had to pay that much for a dog and I saved up.$225 for Abigail and her sister a year later $250 for Sidney.It doesn't sound like much now but it was to me then.We were buying property and you have to think about spaying and feeding.You may say we shouldn't have had the dogs but they were the world to us and we took good care of them and they were my world.I wouldn't have changed anything about them.So I'm just saying the need is there, and I'm not talking about puppy mills.But I don't think that because we couldn't pay that much then people should say we shouldn't have had the dogs.And I'll bet there are allot of people on here that couldn't pay that much ether.Should they not have dogs?Should they not rescue dogs?I'm very happy I'm not in that situation any more but why punish those that are?And I guess we could have gotten a free dog but we wanted another Basset.And I can't say that I haven't said it myself.When people can't pay to have there dogs spayed or neutered, OK they should have thought of that before they got the dog.So I do agree with you to a point.


I'm 24, I'm young and I had to save up for my poodle who came from a reputable breeder. Had I not been able to afford this, poodle rescue would have been the way I would have gone. There is *no excuse* to get a dog from a pet store. If you are living pay check to pay check, perhaps you don't have enough money to have a dog. Or, perhaps you do as long as you save up. Buying from a pet store is not the solution, though. If you purchase a dog from a pet store, you are individually contributing to the puppy mill problem.


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## CavePaws

All of my dogs have been free. Yet my family has dropped thousands upon thousands on their care alone over the past 11 years. I would be willing to spend a little over a thousand for a well socialized Kelpie from great bloodlines. Just think of all the money I'd spend after registering for herding trials and agility trials and classes and seminars. I've experienced so many different behavioral problems with my feral dogs do to poor genetics and their start in life. I wouldn't trade them for anything in this world however I do dream of the day I get a puppy with absolutely no baggage.


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## SerenityFL

I don't know, CavePaws, I think the "baggage" adds something to the whole experience and you can only come out better for it. You learn a lot from those types of dogs.


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## doggiedad

1>>>> traveling 100's of mile for a dog from a reputable breeder
is a short distance compaired to the long haul you might have
with a pet shop dog. how do you know most people can't afford
to travel 100's of miles for a dog???

2>>>> finding a "good breeder" is proof they're living up
to their reputation ("good breeder").



Celt said:


> 1>>>> I know that many people are against buying puppies from pet shops (and I agree that most petshops are horrible places) but if a person wanted a certain breed of dog but would have to travel 100s of miles, which most people cannot afford, what other choice would they have.
> 
> 2>>>> Afterall, finding a "good" breeder on the internet is no guarantee that they are actually "living up to their reputation" while a few petshops have documents that prove "their" pups are bought from AKC/USDA certified proffessional "kennels".


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## luvMyBRT

SerenityFL said:


> I don't know, CavePaws, I think the "baggage" adds something to the whole experience and you can only come out better for it. You learn a lot from those types of dogs.


Depends on the kind of "baggage" your talking about. Sometimes experiences with dogs that have baggage can end in tragedy and heartache.


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## AmeliaPond

BrownieM said:


> I'm 24, I'm young and I had to save up for my poodle who came from a reputable breeder. Had I not been able to afford this, poodle rescue would have been the way I would have gone. There is *no excuse* to get a dog from a pet store. If you are living pay check to pay check, perhaps you don't have enough money to have a dog. Or, perhaps you do as long as you save up. Buying from a pet store is not the solution, though. If you purchase a dog from a pet store, you are individually contributing to the puppy mill problem.


Exactly!

Having a dog is not a basic human right. If you can't afford one from a shelter or a reputable breeder...don't get one.


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## luvMyBRT

Celt said:


> I'm not saying that petshops should be a first option but I understand that if someone wants a specific breed, especially if they want a puppy, might not have as wide a "field" to shop in.


The shopping "field" that I have when looking for a BRT is beyond limited. They are a rare breed in the US and finding a ethical breeder is a challenge. BUT, let me tell you one thing that's for sure....going to a pet store for a puppy is not the first option, it's not the second option or the third. It is something that isn't even an option. Period.

If I have to wait for a puppy, save up money to travel, what ever the reason may be that's what I'll do. Buying from an ethical breeder or adopting from a breed rescue group or shelter is the way to go.


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## SerenityFL

AmeliaPond said:


> Exactly!
> 
> Having a dog is not a basic human right. If you can't afford one from a shelter or a reputable breeder...don't get one.


I've never purchased a dog. Should I not have a dog? Mine have all been free, been found, left to die.


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## CavePaws

SerenityFL said:


> I don't know, CavePaws, I think the "baggage" adds something to the whole experience and you can only come out better for it. You learn a lot from those types of dogs.


You are so right. Believe me, my dogs have taught me so much and they teach me more every single day. I'm not saying at all that they haven't done a lick for me. Are you kidding me? Those dogs are my heart and soul and if it weren't for them I probably wouldn't have had the ambition or knowledge to become a dog trainer. It is great that I have the experience of owning dogs with baggage who need so much more than just a lot of socialization, it has taught me so much about dogs, and I know that when I get a puppy with a clean start it's going to be a peice of cake. My boss always jokes with me about it. She's always like, "Well, just think of how easy it will be when you actually get to pick out your new puppy one day." It's true, I'll be going over breeders and bitches and dogs with a fine tooth comb. The reason I have so much ambition to become a dog trainer is to save dogs like my dog Indi and my dog Tucker. They are both examples of fear aggressive dogs who probably would have been put down years ago. I've had people tell me Indi should be put down and others tell me she probably wouldn't be around if I didn't have her. I don't agree that she should be put down, as I don't agree that any dog who hasn't _seriously_ mauled someone should be put down. I wish there were a place in this world for all the fearful, aggressive dogs who have behavioral issues that could be solved, but it can take years and years to solve these problems and not a lot of people have the time and patience to put up with what I have over the last two years with Indi and five with Tucker.

SerenityFL, I think you're a wonderful owner and trainer for your pups and definitely deserve pets. :] I don't think AmeliaPond meant it in that way. I love the free abandoned left to die pups. They have a lot of character and will to survive. They've been through a lot. It seems though that your pups turned out pretty normal with no emotional baggage, right?


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## doggiedad

1 >>>>>> this might be considered a puppy mill.

2 >>>> you should definitely become one those
that discriminates against breeds and mixes. it makes for great
dog conversations. LOL



CavePaws said:


> I have nothing against purebreds. I love them and teach many. I'm planning on my next dog being a purebred from a good breeder. What I'm saying is you can also get a purebred from the shelter...
> 
> 1 >>>>> I don't see how buying a purebred from a high volume breeder like the ones who sell to petstores helps out much in the world of dogs...<<<<
> 
> Just saying.
> 
> I don't mean to offend anyone who owns a purebred. I have tons of friends with purebreds and I love their dogs.
> 
> 2 >>>>>> I'm seriously not one of those people who discriminates because of breed or mixes or whatever.


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## CavePaws

Discrimination against breeds is something I'll fight until my heart bursts and my brain bleeds out my nose, doggiedad. I'm sure it does make for great conversations, ones where I pull out a can of whoop a** :fencing:

It's discrimination against breeds that causes places like Miami Florida to ban pitbulls because for some reason some people in power in Miami seem to think that the majority of pitbulls are aggressive and fight. It's completely ridiculous and it is why we have so many dogs put to sleep and used for abominable purposes and also why we have breed ban laws. So many people have to give up their dogs, I see it all the time on craigslist, because the apartment they are moving into has banned their dogs breed. It's disgusting to me.

ANYWAY. What was the breed you were looking for anyway, Celt?


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## SerenityFL

CavePaws said:


> Discrimination against breeds is something I'll fight until my heart bursts and my brain bleeds out my nose, doggiedad. I'm sure it does make for great conversations, ones where I pull out a can of whoop a** :fencing:
> 
> It's discrimination against breeds that causes places like Miami Florida to ban pitbulls because for some reason some people in power in Miami seem to think that the majority of pitbulls are aggressive and fight. It's completely ridiculous and it is why we have so many dogs put to sleep and used for abominable purposes and also why we have breed ban laws. So many people have to give up their dogs, I see it all the time on craigslist, because the apartment they are moving into has banned their dogs breed. It's disgusting to me.
> 
> ANYWAY. What was the breed you were looking for anyway, Celt?


Unfortunately, (I'm in Miami, FL), the cultures here in Miami do not view dog fighting or cock fighting as a bad thing. They don't view animals the right way. They view them as tools to do something, to get them something or to bring them money. It is because of this culture here that pit bulls have been used and abused horribly. Often times also on Craigslist you will see ads "wanting a kitten" or a puppy and wanting it free or inexpensive. Many times those are fighting ring participants looking for fresh bait for their fighting dogs. It is truly sickening the way this city treats animals around here and those who do have a fricken brain in their head and heart in their chest are the ones who lose out and the biggest losers are the animals...especially the "banned" breeds. 

It is truly ridiculous that at one time, the pit bull was our friend on the Little Rascals and now it's a menace to society, a dangerous animal, ban them!

It's the people who make these dogs this way, NOT the dogs!


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## CavePaws

I was watching animal cops the other day and they at least let this guy who had a mama pitbull find a home for her and the pups outside of Miami before attempting to take her from him. I at least like the sympathy shown by some animal cops, at least you know that some people do have a heart. :[ Perhaps it's for the best that people who have scrambled eggs for brains don't own pitbulls. But then again, I don't know if there are any other breed laws there, but there are other breeds that one could train to fight. It's terribly sad there are people in this world who do this sort of stuff, and the true animal lovers do miss out on wonderful companions. :|


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## SerenityFL

CavePaws said:


> I was watching animal cops the other day and they at least let this guy who had a mama pitbull find a home for her and the pups outside of Miami before attempting to take her from him. I at least like the sympathy shown by some animal cops, at least you know that some people do have a heart. :[ Perhaps it's for the best that people who have scrambled eggs for brains don't own pitbulls. But then again, I don't know if there are any other breed laws there, but there are other breeds that one could train to fight. It's terribly sad there are people in this world who do this sort of stuff, and the true animal lovers do miss out on wonderful companions. :|


You will see a lot of: "No pit bulls, no german shepards, no chow or chow mixes of any kind" and also, "only dogs under 25 pounds" and "no aggressive breeds" which means what, exactly? Any dog can be aggressive if it's not treated right. But people have seriously ruined it here for people with dogs.


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## Savage Destiny

SerenityFL said:


> I've never purchased a dog. Should I not have a dog? Mine have all been free, been found, left to die.


You're twisting words here. You didn't go out of your way to get "cheap" dogs because you couldn't afford them, your just happened upon your dogs or took them out of bad situations. That's a whole lot different than saying, "Oh I'm going to buy from this BYB/puppy mill/pet store/etc. because good breeders are too expensive". 

I spent $200 to adopt Riddle from the shelter. Thought I got a deal- she came spayed, vaccinated, and had a free first vet visit. I've since spent roughly $10,000 on her over the last five years due to her various health issues. She's a wonderful dog and I don't regret adopting her- but I'd have spent a whole lot less buying from a breeder who health tests.


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## Caty M

I just want to add that as a first time dog owner, I didn't want to rescue a dog. I love mutts, but for my first dog I researched a LOT about temperaments, trainability etc. I know all dogs can be trained, but I wanted one that was easy since I have never done it before. So I chose a sheltie! They are smart, easy to train, and just generally good for my lifestyle. Also our lease said nothing over 30lb..


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## AmeliaPond

We got ours from a shelter and we got pretty lucky because she was super easy to train, for the most part. And so far, not too many health problems (fingers crossed.) We only knew a few basic history things (she was abandoned at a boarding facility, lived there for 10 months before the owner finally signed off and allowed a rescue group to take her, then we found her on petfinder.) I talked to someone from the boarding facility where she lived and someone from the rescue group. That was enough "history" for me to go off of, in addition to my own opinions after visiting her a few times. I'm worried she's ruined us for all future dogs though...haha.

I think everyone needs to do what is right for them and their family. And as long as that means NO pet stores, puppy mills, or BYB....then I don't have a problem with it.


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## xxshaelxx

Herzo said:


> Well you leave for awhile and sometimes you miss allot.Going way back.XXShaelXX I know it's called saving, it's called getting older and smarter and not living from pay check to pay check.But sometimes when your young you do live that way.Shucks I've read on here people saying when they get there pay check they'll get something.I'm just saying there is a need for maybe a cheaper purbred dog.I would have never had my Bassets back 14 years ago if I had had to pay that much for a dog and I saved up.$225 for Abigail and her sister a year later $250 for Sidney.It doesn't sound like much now but it was to me then.We were buying property and you have to think about spaying and feeding.You may say we shouldn't have had the dogs but they were the world to us and we took good care of them and they were my world.I wouldn't have changed anything about them.So I'm just saying the need is there, and I'm not talking about puppy mills.But I don't think that because we couldn't pay that much then people should say we shouldn't have had the dogs.And I'll bet there are allot of people on here that couldn't pay that much ether.Should they not have dogs?Should they not rescue dogs?I'm very happy I'm not in that situation any more but why punish those that are?And I guess we could have gotten a free dog but we wanted another Basset.And I can't say that I haven't said it myself.When people can't pay to have there dogs spayed or neutered, OK they should have thought of that before they got the dog.So I do agree with you to a point.


Herzo, you're talking to someone who DOES live paycheck to paycheck. I have money saved up, yes, but that's emergency money. But guess what? I want to go on a trip to Florida in September, so rather than just figuring I already have the money, why not spend it, I'm saving PAST what I already have that is emergency money, and I'll pay for everything with what I've saved up. I make about $25,000 a year. I own my own home. I have tons and tons and tons of bills. I don't buy things when I get my paycheck, at least not large things, and not without first thinking of a plan to pay back what I spent, or save back the money. When I got my dogs, I sure as heck saved up the money, and if I hadn't had it when my chance came to get a dog, I would have passed that chance and waited until a later date when I did have the money, because I wanted to make sure I wasn't making a mistake.

The point of going through a reputable breeder is because all of those backyard breeders aren't doing anything for the situation of millions upon millions of dogs being put down in shelters each year. Frankly, they don't give a rats a$$!!! That's a HUGE reason NOT to go through a breeder that is anything less than reputable. They're just pumping out litter after litter for the sake of money, and if people are buying up these puppies without first questioning whether it's right or not, and finding a REPUTABLE breeder, then these people are just going to CONTINUE pumping out litter after litter, and unlike those pups that end up in your home, 50% of them will wind up in shelters, or the rest will end up treated horribly, because these are the kind of people that don't care about what they're getting. If you go through these breeders, you're just one more person enabling them to do what they do, to pump out litter after litter in hopes of making some money, while most of these pups are put to sleep after a few years of hopping from home to home.

That is the reason why we don't advocate buying from backyard breeders, even if they're kind to their dogs, raise them in home, take good care of them, etc. Because in the end, it's just hurting the dog world, no matter how kindly these dogs were treated. The bottom line is money for these people.


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## RaisingWolves

luvMyBRT said:


> Sometimes experiences with dogs that have baggage can end in tragedy and heartache.


Yes, especially if you have young children in your home. My kids are adults, but temperament is very important to me because I know that I will have grandchildren in my near future.


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## CorgiPaws

I've read this whole thread through, and I have quite a bit to add! Why am I always so late to the party these days? Lol.

As someone who will probably only ever own purebred dogs, and I have every intention to dive into the world of breeding purebred dogs, it is something that I can get pretty chatty about. 

First off, let me say that I have five dogs. One mutt that I rescued from an abusive situation (champ- Gsd/ golden) one cocker spaniel adopted from a breed-specific rescue, one Boxer from a very ethical breeder, and one dane rescued from an abusive situation. I have another great dane coming from an ethical breeder in about 6 weeks. I think rescuing is a very admirable thing to do. I give props to those who do. 

Now I will be the bad one and say that I probably will never rescue another dog again. I will only obtain my dogs through ethical breeders. Why? 

1. I know the traits I desire in a companion and/ or breeding dog. To obtain an animal with my list of desired traits, my best bet is to go to an ethical breeder, whom breeds to standard. It's important to me to have the best bet possible that the animal that I bring home meshes with my lifestyle. My schedule requires a lot of my dogs, they go to events, daycare, meetings, parades, etc. 

2. While its true that dogs with "baggage" can teach us a lot- I have three dogs that came with baggage, and while I wouldnt trade any of them for the world, I quite frankly am not up for an encore round of it all. It is also important to remember that some people are simply not capable of handling some behavior problems. Some people have no business taking on difficult dogs. 

3. I have other pets to consider. 

4. Health is so important to me. I've paid for countless vet bills for my rescues, from pain killers for champs achey joints, to eye removal for Murphy. I just don't want to have a dog riddled with health problems if there's any way around it. I'm not rich, and money doesn't grow on trees!! I watch champ at 4.5 years old, struggle to get up due to awful hips, and deeply wish someone would have taken time to consider their dogs hip score before breeding his litter. Then I wouldn't want to cry every time his hips struggle under his weight. 

I give back in ways many people do not. I give my time, money, effort, etc to different rescue efforts. I drive dogs to different states, I go to charity events, I volunteer at my local shelter weekly. I would foster my breed of choice if the rescue would let me bit since zailey is not spayed they won't now. I educate as many people as I can. It's just that when obtaining a dog for my house, breeder is the way to go. 

Going through an ethical breeder isn't a sure bet. Though, it is a bit of a safety belt. There are of course exceptions to every standard.. but if you put 19 brown eggs, and one white egg in a basket and close your eyes and pick chances are you will gwt a brown egg. 

But all of this only applies to GOOD breeders. Because if they are not dedicated to the breed, anf carefully planning each litter, they can stray so far from standard there goes your safety net. The breeders who produce dogs in pet shops are puppy mills. NONE are good. 

NO GOOD ETHICAL BREEDER WOULD PRODUCE A PUPPY AND NOT BE INVOLVED WITH THE NEW FAMILY. GOOD BREEDERS ARE SELECTIVE OF THE HOMES THEIR PUPS GO TO. I can not stress that enough. They are high volume breeders wanting money off of the dogs with NO concern of what happens to them.


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## RaisingWolves

PuppyPaws said:


> NO GOOD ETHICAL BREEDER WOULD PRODUCE A PUPPY AND NOT BE INVOLVED WITH THE NEW FAMILY. GOOD BREEDERS ARE SELECTIVE OF THE HOMES THEIR PUPS GO TO. I can not stress that enough.



In addition to this, a good breeder will ALWAYS take their pup back...It doesn't matter what age, it is part of their contract the pup is never to be surrender to a shelter.


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## Herzo

I am in no way talking about puppy mills.My thought actually started when my husband and I were talking the other day.I was telling him about how much a good dog costs(he doesn't pay much attention to these things) he was a little shocked.At first it made me mad because I know how much a good breeder puts into there dogs, time and money.Then I thought about it and I thought well he does have some what of a point.I just don't think that some people can save and justify that kind of money.You may never see my point but I have to have a horse and I'm sure as heck glad that I don't have to save up $10,000-$50,000 or more to get one.I'm just saying that there is a need for different quality's out there.Not everyone wants a dog from a show litter even if they want a purebred dog.As I said I'm not talking about puppy mills there is no need for them.I'm also not talking about people that breed litter after litter with no regard.But I guess I have just seen people want to have puppy's say because there Border Collie is a very good working dog and they want to keep the genes going.I may not think they should have puppy's but there is a need around here for working dogs on Ranches.I may not be getting my point across but like I said at the start, I don't like to never say never but I can't ever see myself buying a puppy from a pet store because I know they get them from puppy mills.And believe me I know about all the dogs in Shelters.I donate time every week and have for 15 years.I have 2 rescues one being a Pitbull the town was going to put down for aggression.He was misunderstood.Also some of you should come and get your dogs from here we only charge $50 spayed or neutered shots and micro chipped.Yes we lose money but it's for the dogs.


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## luvMyBRT

RaisingWolves said:


> Yes, especially if you have young children in your home. My kids are adults, but temperament is very important to me because I know that I will have grandchildren in my near future.


My point exactly. I have two children, 3 and 5 years old. Going to an ethical breeder so that I know the history of the puppy and so that I can meet the parents/grandparents is of utmost importance to me. If a breeder doesn't have temperament at the top for what they breed for then they are not the breeder for me.


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## chowder

I'll throw in my two cents on the topic because I've 'been there, done that'. I've had a chow from a pet store, backyard breeders, top show breeder, and rescue. (also a Labrador, a Samoyed, Lhasa Apso's, and now a Rottie mix). 

But we'll stick to the Chows. My one from the pet store had hip dysplasia before she was one and knee surgery when she was two and ended up dying from bloat. We did manage to get all our money back from the pet store (for myself and my friend who got a chow there) and the store ended up deciding to not sell Chow puppies anymore. So, that was a success in a way. My Chows from the backyard breeder both died very young of cancer. One had horrible hip problems, the other had severe dog aggression and we spent years trying to keep the two from killing each other. My two from the champion breeder both had health problems (knee's, eyes). Rocky is my first rescue Chow. There was a waiting list of over 60 people to get the 5 puppies in his litter and I was just lucky that they picked me for him because they wanted experienced Chow owners only. So far, he is my healthiest Chow, which I think is because he is half Husky (and he eats so well!)

Even though Rocky is the love of my life, I will probably end up going back to a really good breeder for our next Chow. They are almost impossible to find at rescues (as puppies). You may see half the puppies in the Humane Society called 'part chow' but when you get there, you end up finding a Labrador or Pit Bull mix with no recognizable Chow features. Chows are fairly rare so the odds of every other puppy being a 'chow mix' is pretty slim, even though they call them that. 

I have no problem being a 'breed snob'. Chows work for us. They are my perfect breed - furry, adorable, an incredible challenge to train (we have done agility with two of them and they were the only Chows there!!) , and not too active. They bond to their Momma like nothing else and I am always safe with a Chow at my side. We will also stick with puppies because I want to raise them and not miss the puppy years. Shadey is a rescue Rotti mix that we got at 4 years old and he came with a TON of problems. We have worked out most of them and I love him very much (heck, he sleeps on the couch with me in the evening), but I don't want another one like him!


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## AmeliaPond

My sister's last two dogs have been rescue dogs from shelters. I believe they are both border collie mixes. They were/are fantastic with her children (currently ages 3 and 6 but their dog that passed away last year was around before the kids were even born.) So I think there are plenty of shelter dogs that are great with children.

Our dog was briefly fostered in a home with a child before we got her and she did fantastic (they even sent me photos of the dog with the child when I asked how she was with him.) So I think as long as you do some research, it's pretty easy to find a rescue dog that is good with children.

And if you can tell what breed mix it is...then that's another way to know if it might be good around kids. For example, most terrier mixes out here up for adoption say "no children under 8." The first dog I liked said that so it was off the table right away since we plan to have kids at some point.


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## Celt

First, to answer a question, my breed of choice is Italian Greyhounds and it took me almost 5 years to find my "baby". The breeds that I'm looking into right now are Shiba Inu, Basenji, and Irish Jacks because my son would like a dog. We still need to learn more about these dogs and see if there are certain "lines" that should be avoided. 
Next, I've own dogs from nearly all the "categories": show line, working line, byb, petshop, and rescue. We've been extremely lucky (thank God and knock on wood) that none have ever had a severe health or behavior issues and lived long lives. But at this point in life, we would rather raise a pup than get an older dog.
On the topic of byb, there are times when a person would have no choice but to go to a "byb". An example would be, my father had always loved Daschunds but didn't like where the show lines were going, he searched around and found Teckels (hunting daschunds), these dogs would most likely never be seen in a show but were what he was looking for.

Okay, letting the "devil's advocate" take over

I agree that it is best to get a pup from a good, ethical breeder, but if one is not available due to distance, etc; should this mean that a person does not deserve to own their heart breed (as some have said) when they could get a pup from a "reputable" petshop. One where the pups are bought from certified kennels, with pedrigrees that show titles, DNA and health testing. As I stated before, I believe that a person would have to save to buy a purebred puppy, but I don't think they should have to save several thousand dollars for the chance to buy a pup of their choice.
Many have suggested rescues/shelters but these seldomly have puppies available, and quite a few refuse to adopt outside of a certain locale (due to wanting to perform home visits, etc).


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## BrownieM

Celt said:


> I agree that it is best to get a pup from a good, ethical breeder, but if one is not available due to distance, etc; should this mean that a person does not deserve to own their heart breed (as some have said) when they could get a pup from a "reputable" petshop. One where the pups are bought from certified kennels, with pedrigrees that show titles, DNA and health testing. As I stated before, I believe that a person would have to save to buy a purebred puppy, but I don't think they should have to save several thousand dollars for the chance to buy a pup of their choice.
> Many have suggested rescues/shelters but these seldomly have puppies available, and quite a few refuse to adopt outside of a certain locale (due to wanting to perform home visits, etc).


Not sure why this isn't getting through to you. There is NO reputable petshop. If this is the only option for you, you should not get a dog.

Did you not read the links I provided? A certified kennel means NOTHING. Let me know when you find a petshop who can prove legitimate documented health tests. NO _reputable_ show breeder, wait, no reputable breeder *period* would *ever* sell a puppy to a pet store. Nobody who cares about the well being of their puppies will sell their puppies through a pet shop. You seem to be ignoring the facts that the rest of the world has caught on to.

If you buy a puppy from a pet shop YOU are supporting puppy mills. Can you live with that?


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## luvMyBRT

Celt said:


> Okay, letting the "devil's advocate" take over
> 
> I agree that it is best to get a pup from a good, ethical breeder, but if one is not available due to distance, etc; should this mean that a person does not deserve to own their heart breed (as some have said) when they could get a pup from a "reputable" petshop. One where the pups are bought from certified kennels, with pedrigrees that show titles, DNA and health testing. As I stated before, I believe that a person would have to save to buy a purebred puppy, but I don't think they should have to save several thousand dollars for the chance to buy a pup of their choice.
> Many have suggested rescues/shelters but these seldomly have puppies available, and quite a few refuse to adopt outside of a certain locale (due to wanting to perform home visits, etc).


Okay....it's 10 pages later and you are really typing this question again?? Are you kidding? 

This is exhausting. :twitch:


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## SerenityFL

Celt said:


> Okay, letting the "devil's advocate" take over
> 
> I agree that it is best to get a pup from a good, ethical breeder, but if one is not available due to distance, etc; should this mean that a person does not deserve to own their heart breed (as some have said) when they could get a pup from a "reputable" petshop. One where the pups are bought from certified kennels, with pedrigrees that show titles, DNA and health testing. As I stated before, I believe that a person would have to save to buy a purebred puppy, but I don't think they should have to save several thousand dollars for the chance to buy a pup of their choice.
> Many have suggested rescues/shelters but these seldomly have puppies available, and quite a few refuse to adopt outside of a certain locale (due to wanting to perform home visits, etc).


Typing in "El Paso, TX Animal Control Services" in to Google brought up all kinds of shelters and rescues in El Paso. Some link to Petfinder.org and you can put in your criteria. Maybe you won't find exactly what you want right away. Sometimes, patience and the wait is worth it. 

Just remember, for every pet you purchase at a pet store, another animal, somewhere, unknown, suffers for it. If you truly love animals and you truly love dogs, please, don't buy from a pet store. Keep searching, keep looking, look every day at those shelters or rescues. One day, you're going to find that dog.


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## xxshaelxx

Celt said:


> I agree that it is best to get a pup from a good, ethical breeder, but if one is not available due to distance, etc; should this mean that a person does not deserve to own their heart breed (as some have said) when they could get a pup from a "reputable" petshop. One where the pups are bought from certified kennels, with pedrigrees that show titles, DNA and health testing. As I stated before, I believe that a person would have to save to buy a purebred puppy, but I don't think they should have to save several thousand dollars for the chance to buy a pup of their choice.
> Many have suggested rescues/shelters but these seldomly have puppies available, and quite a few refuse to adopt outside of a certain locale (due to wanting to perform home visits, etc).


Amaya and Ryou both came from a breeder that lives five hours from my home. It's not exactly the most ideal situations, but if I'd have chose, I could have had them shipped to me at 10 weeks old for an additional $300-400. That's not a big price to pay knowing what you're getting and where your dog is coming from. And I CERTAINLY didn't save up thousands of dollars! 

As people have said, even puppy mills have gotten away with some awful stuff and still been certified and all that jazz. Some puppy mills have even been known to forge documents, and I wouldn't put it past them to forge something like a health certificate or DNA testing. Why don't you ask Linsey (PuppyPaws) what happened when she got the AKC papers for a rescue dog that came from a puppy mill. I would NEVER trust a pet shop selling puppies or kittens, no matter what health guarantees they have on their animals.


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## CorgiPaws

xxshaelxx said:


> Some puppy mills have even been known to forge documents, and I wouldn't put it past them to forge something like a health certificate or DNA testing. Why don't you ask Linsey (PuppyPaws) what happened when she got the AKC papers for a rescue dog that came from a puppy mill. I would NEVER trust a pet shop selling puppies or kittens, no matter what health guarantees they have on their animals.


 It's a long story, but I had just adopted a Cocker Spaniel through a rescue, one that I knew years ago, and fell in love with, that had become avaliable again. The night before I was supposed to go pick him up, the surrendering family backed out. I was entirely devistated. I had my heart set on him. I cried for days. We had already prepared the home for a new dog, purchased everything we needed, and even set up his crate in our bedroom. 
We had discussed getting another dog, but I wasn't over the pain of losing him yet. I actually fell into a bit of a depression. In an effort to ease it, my husband insisted we go look at a Cocker Spaniel puppy that was posted on Craigslist by a lady that decided she didn't have time for a puppy just 4 weeks after buying her.

Long story short, I was APPAULED at how she was keeping the puppy. Very wealthy woman in a very wealthy part of Henderson, NV... puppy being kept in a cage, covered in poop. Not used to being handled or anything. Skittish as all get out. Turns out she bought her at a pet shop, and paid $1600 for her. She was "registered and health tested and from a USDA approved breeder." Being educated, I knew it was a load of crap fed to buyers to make the puppies sound like they came from a history of butterflies and dandilions. 

SHe was a black and white parti cocker. Her "registration" said she was Buff colored. Her registration also put her at (based on my vet's estimate) about two months younger than what she possibly could have been. Unless, of course this pet shop sold her at 4 weeks old.... which I wouldn't put it past them. I ended up digging for more information and the more I dug the more infuriated I was. Even the "USDA approved" breeder (folks... SLAUGHTERHOUSES can be usda approved. think about it, people... it means didly squat) had not been inspected in years, and her "health papers" were signed by a vet and printed by a clinic that didn't exist. The harder I fought to have more information the more they refused to tell me anything. At first it was because I wasn't the person who bought her from them. Then it was because they "protect their breeders" by not indulging buyers in their personal information. It got to the point that they threatened to press charges for harassment if we called anymore asking questions about this pup.

This dog, was terrified of everything. Urinated if you approached her out of fear, wanted nothing to do with my other dogs, and had a general lack of personality outside of cower at every noise, person, or animal. We liked her alright, but ended up rehoming her to a quiet, single-dog home with a single woman. My lifestyle was way too overstimulating for her, and I felt our efforts were doing more harm than good. 

That's PetLand for you, folks. 



And to the OP, seriously, if after TEN pages you don't understand that there is NO SUCH THING as a "reputable" pet shop, then this is dead and pointless, and we all need to move on. NO GOOD BREEDER would sell their puppies through a pet shop. IT IS AGAINST ALL ETHICS to use brokers to place puppies. It does NOT happen. A breeder that is going through the trouble to health test, temprament screen, and do EVERYTHING else right is not going to throw in the towel when it comes to placing the pups. IT DOES NOT HAPPEN. Each and EVERY single puppy in a pet shop is from a "breeder" or puppy mill that doesnt give a damn about the puppies, that is churning out dog after dog, trying to make money. THAT IS THE ONLY KIND OF PERSON WHO WOULD PUT THEIR PUPPIES IN A SHOP.


ETA: I'd like to add that the rescue Cocker mentioned was one that I had known about 4 years ago when my work fostered him through SDSR. It was in February of 2010 that this all happened with the pet store, and in October 2010 the same dog got dumped yet again. That's my Murphy in my signature. I actually ended up with him after all. <3


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## xxshaelxx

Linsey, that is one of those posts that if I could thank you a hundred times or more, I would. That's exactly what I was getting at, and exactly what many others here were trying to get at.

No matter if you THINK the pet shop is reputable, or if they SAY the pups might come from a good background, it's all a bunch of lies. It's just like that site, breedernetwork.com. They say their pups don't come from puppy mills, that all of their animals are health tested, guaranteed, etc. And yet, when looking at the pictures of these puppies, you can TELL that it's a puppy mill. You can SEE the deplorable conditions that dogs are kept in. Yet they repeatedly say how they do NOT get their dogs from puppy mills, how REPUTABLE their breeders are, how HEALTHY their pups are. It's all lies.


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## AmeliaPond

On the bright side of things...it looks like _almost_ everyone here is in agreement about pet shops and how horrible they are.


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## Celt

It appears that most believe that if a person is unable to get a puppy from a rescue group, shelter, or a good, ethical breeder (Which seems to be defined as a breeder who limits the number of litters in a year, only breeds dogs that have been temperment and fully health tested (a minimum of 2 yrs wait, with some breeds being a minimum of 5), and preferably have shown their dogs to "prove" they're following the breed standard. They must rasie the litter in their home, not a kennel, and socialize the litter to various environments and experiences. These breeders will not sell a puppy before it is fully temperment tested (not done earlier than 6 weeks) or to people that they have not met. They will also want to maintain close contact with the puppy's new family.) then they do not deserve to get the dog of their "dreams" or should settle for what they are able to get.


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## BrownieM

Yes, this is correct. Your "dreams" are not as important as ensuring the ethical breeding of these animals. To go to a pet store because it is the only way to fulfill your "dream" is to act with utter selfishness and disregard for the proper treatment of dogs.


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## BrownieM

Actually, this is how I would alter your statement to make it more accurate, IMO:

"It appears that most believe that if a person is unable to get a puppy from a rescue group, shelter, or a good, ethical breeder (Which seems to be defined as a breeder who limits the number of litters in a year, only breeds dogs that have been fully health tested (a minimum of 2 yrs wait, with some breeds being a minimum of 5), and preferably have shown, *attained performance titles or have participated in other activities* with their dogs to "prove" they're following the breed standard *or are worthy of being reproduced*. They must rasie the litter in their home, not a kennel, and socialize the litter to various environments and experiences. *Many of* these breeders will not sell a puppy before it is fully temperment tested (not done earlier than 6 weeks) *and none will sell* to people that they have not met. They will also want to maintain close contact with the puppy's new family.) then they do not deserve to get the dog of their "dreams" or should settle for what they are able to get."


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## Caty M

There are many rare breeds I would love to own, but if the pet store was the only reasonable way to get one, I wouldn't. 

By the way, what do you guys think of working bred dogs? My dog was from working sheep herders (what my dog was meant to do..) not conformation bred. Obviously the line is healthy because there are 12 year old dogs still herding. I think the original instinct in a breed is as important as anything. JMHO.

His litter was still socialized with kids, dogs, cats, (and sheep, lol), and raised inside as pets.


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## BrownieM

bishopsheltie, I don't know much about working bred dogs, but I believe a dog can be proven in other ways besides conformation. If I wanted a hunting poodle, I would go to a breeder who focuses on breeding for these qualities and who actively hunts with her poodles. I would not go to a breeder who has stunning dogs in the conformation ring, fits breed standard but doesn't possess what is necessary to hunt. I would also not go to a breeder who says her dogs are excellent for hunting but doesn't do any work to prove this.

I like to see bitches/dogs proven, but this does not always have to be showing in conformation.


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## CorgiPaws

Celt said:


> It appears that most believe that if a person is unable to get a puppy from a rescue group, shelter, or a good, ethical breeder......... then they do not deserve to get the dog of their "dreams" or should settle for what they are able to get.


And tell me, wherein lies the disadvantage for the dog's welfare? 
But you're right. It's SO unfair to you that there are breeders in this world whom actually give a dam* about the animals they produce. Poor, poor "person wanting a dog."



Celt said:


> It appears that most believe that if a person is unable to get a puppy from a rescue group, shelter, or a good, ethical breeder (Which seems to be defined as a breeder who limits the number of litters in a year, only breeds dogs that have been temperment and fully health tested (a minimum of 2 yrs wait, with some breeds being a minimum of 5), and preferably have shown their dogs to "prove" they're following the breed standard. They must rasie the litter in their home, not a kennel, and socialize the litter to various environments and experiences. These breeders will not sell a puppy before it is fully temperment tested (not done earlier than 6 weeks) or to people that they have not met. They will also want to maintain close contact with the puppy's new family.) then they do not deserve to get the dog of their "dreams" or should settle for what they are able to get.


It appears that because some people desire a rare (or perhaps even popular breed) puppy, but are not dedicated nor financially stable enough to search abroad for said puppy, (and therefore probably unable to handle most emergency vet bills I've ever seen) that somewhere in a stackable kennel, a female must churn out litter after litter of unhealthy, unproven puppies for the entirety of her fertile years. This is ALWAYS done without proper medical care, socialization, and stimulation. 
Seems a bit unfair, doesn't it?



Celt said:


> (Which seems to be defined as a breeder who limits the number of litters in a year,


Yes. Ones who contribute to the betterment and welfare of their chosen breed rather than to the overpopulation of shelters across the world. 



Celt said:


> only breeds dogs that have been temperment and fully health tested (a minimum of 2 yrs wait, with some breeds being a minimum of 5),


I'm sorry, in MY description of MY dram dog, things like "poor temperament" "bad hips" and "thyroid malfunction" can't be found. 
Heaven forbid those awful, awful breeders actually being proactive about producing QUALITY. Shame on them. 
Also, I can't think of a single breed in which adequate health testing can not be done by age 2. Five years? Please, point me in the direction of that breed?



Celt said:


> and preferably have shown their dogs to "prove" they're following the breed standard.


There are plenty of GREAT breeders out there that do not show. In fact, most of the breeders on my favorites list do not show, though some have produced champions nonetheless. This is a matter of opinion. I have NO problem buying a puppy from FULLY health tested parents, in which BOTH parents have amazing dispositions, and yet have never ever competed in any kind of competition. I may be in the minority here, but performance, be it agility, show, etc. is simply not a priority of mine. Obedience titles are nifty, though not a deal maker or breaker. (I'm CERTAIN I will be flamed for this!) I'll take a CGC over a CH any day of the week. 
See, titles are elastic in my book. Temperament and health are NOT. Titles and competition are something you decide for yourself if they're important. That's why BYBs have a market. There are plenty of people to whom no factor is important other than their puppy is cute. There are a lot more than Puppy mill, BYB, Good Breeder, categories. 



Celt said:


> They must rasie the litter in their home, not a kennel, and socialize the litter to various environments and experiences.


Um. Yeah. 
WHo the heck likes the idea of puppies and mama dogs shoved in a kennel and under socialized. 



Celt said:


> . These breeders will not sell a puppy before it is fully temperament tested (not done earlier than 6 weeks)


This is simply not true. SOME breeders do in fact place the puppy to the home rather than letting the family pick. The breeder I will get my Boxers from as long as she is breeding lets families pick, BUT retains the right to refuse the sale of the puppy if as the dog develops, she feels it is not the right match (example: the most headstrong puppy of the litter going to a first-time Boxer owner, or the calmest, most docile pup going to a family looking for a high-energy playmate and athletic partner. ) I think this is very respectable. My Dane puppy is only two weeks old, but I've already picked him out. I'm an experienced dog owner, have some experience with the breed, and the breeder felt comfortable letting me have my pick. He is also intended for breeding purposes and she and I agree he is the choice male of the litter. 
Breeders place their puppies in homes they find suitable. It's a way to insure the puppies are going to their FOREVER home, and not some people who aren't the right match, only for their puppy to end up without the best life possible. 
You HAVE to understand that while you may be a good owner, every Tom, Dick, and Harry out there is NOT and breeders MUST protect their puppies. 
Also, most breeders breed each litter with the intent to keep a puppy to carry on lines. They need to watch the puppies develop before deciding on one for themselves. 



Celt said:


> or to people that they have not met.


I've found FAR more breeders that WILL sell and ship a puppy based on an application and phone interview alone without ever meeting the buyer than ones that won't. 



Celt said:


> . They will also want to maintain close contact with the puppy's new family.)


As an aspiring breeder, I need to tell you: When a breeder makes the move to dedicate MOST of their time to a breed, sacrifices are made, money is spent, and emotions are invested. When an ethical breeder brings a litter of living, breathing souls into the world, they do so with a promise to each pup, a promise to do everything within their power to ensure each one a happy life. They are responsible for the welfare of that dog, not just for the first 8 weeks, but for the life of the dog. Maintaining contact with a pup's family for the life of the dog is part of that. It's like a parent checking in on their married kids. They just do it. 
I intend to do so for a few reasons. One of which is obviously jsut for updates. I love my dogs, therefore I will love their puppies. But the BIGGEST reason, is to make sure that the dog never ever ends up in the shelters. If you sell off a puppy and cut ties, and the family comes across a rough patch, they're more likely to dump the dog, but if you've maintained close contact, then chances are they would return the dog to the breeder and respect the contract.



Celt said:


> ) then they do not deserve to get the dog of their "dreams" or should settle for what they are able to get.


Malnourished
Out of Standard
Under Socialized
Timid
Aggressive
Unhealthy
Weak Hips
Juvenile Cataracts
Deformities
Allergies
Mange
Incredibly Difficulty Potty Training (from weeks of having no choice but to soil their sleeping quarters)

that's what you're very well getting into when you buy a pet shop puppy. If that's REALLY your "dream dog" then I'm baffled.


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## BrownieM

Nicely stated! 

I interpreted will not sell to someone they "have not met" to mean that they will not sell a puppy via a *broker*, through a pet store or the online equivalent to a pet store. Most reputable breeders I have encountered want to get to know the buyer _in some way_, be it a phone conversation or meeting in person.


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## CorgiPaws

BrownieM said:


> Nicely stated!
> 
> I interpreted will not sell to someone they "have not met" to mean that they will not sell a puppy via a *broker*, through a pet store or the online equivalent to a pet store. Most reputable breeders I have encountered want to get to know the buyer _in some way_, be it a phone conversation or meeting in person.


Absolutely. Going through a broker just does NOT happen with good breeders. They don't necessarily have to MEET you, but they at least need to know a lot about you, via application and multiple phone interviews.


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## xxshaelxx

The reality is that millions and millions of dogs are put to sleep each year because there are many, many, MANY breeders out there who do not care where the puppy is placed, just that they're breeding these litters to either make money, or whatever other WRONG reason it is that they're doing so, and many of these people who are getting these puppies know no better, they think they're getting an object, not a little peeing, pooping, chewing, howling, barking, digging, etc. puppy that they're not going to want again in a few months. That is the MAJORITY of people in this world. Ethical breeders are working to cut down on the number of these people taking these dogs, not only by screening their potential buyers, but also be EDUCATING other people, helping them to understand just what it means to be taking a dog in FOR LIFE. It's NOT just about proving your dogs in the show ring or in the hunting field. 

Personally, I could care less about a breeder that shows Siberian Huskies or runs them on sleds. I would rather see a breeder who health tests their dogs and hand picks each breeding with careful consideration of temperament, and then heavily questions potential buyers and helps to educate them if they're not quite where they should be to own a dog, and this particular dog, considering how many downfalls there ARE to Siberian Huskies.

And heck, even some people who show their dogs or participate in sports with them or whatever aren't even that great of breeders. Many conformation dogs still have health disorders such as hip dysplacia that are bred anyways, because they showed well. Or dogs that are totally aggressive towards other dogs, dominant or whatever. They're bred because they look good. Your logic is flawed greatly, and it really seems like you're only reading what you want to read, rather than what we're trying to tell you is the reason why cheap dogs just aren't worth it. Just because ONE person buys a dog from a backyard breeder, has a good experience, and a good, long life with the dog, never giving them away, doesn't mean everyone else will. I would be willing to bet that one out of every unethically bred litter meets this happy fate, and all others either pass hands half a dozen times, are put to sleep, or left in the backyard for their whole lives with NO life, because the owners just didn't care. ONE puppy will get a home like yours. Every other puppy will get a fate that no dog deserves. Why should anyone advocate for a cheaper dog for this fate to come for most of them?


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## AmeliaPond

Wait....am I reading this correctly? Does the OP think the strict standards/practices of reputable breeders are BAD things??!


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## xxshaelxx

AmeliaPond said:


> Wait....am I reading this correctly? Does the OP think the strict standards/practices of reputable breeders are BAD things??!


No. That's just an extreme opinion. I'm sure she does not think BADLY of reputable breeders, just that there's reason to advocate for less than reputable breeders, which none of us agree with.


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## AmeliaPond

xxshaelxx said:


> No. That's just an extreme opinion. I'm sure she does not think BADLY of reputable breeders, just that there's reason to advocate for less than reputable breeders, which none of us agree with.


Okay. I guess that's not _as _bad then. Maybe.


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## Caty M

I want to add as well that anyone looking to get a specific breed of dog should be going to dog shows, doing tons of research etc.. not just deciding what one is the cutest. This requires time.. enough time to get one from a good breeder. A dog should never be an impulse buy.

Also dogs from good breeders AREN'T $10,000-50,000 like you said Celt. Where I live they are the same cost as pet stores.. but you are getting a much much higher quality dog.


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## BrownieM

Yeah...I've never heard of paying $10,000-$50,000 to purchase a dog....That is a bit excessive.


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## Caty M

Where I live (Alberta, Canada) dogs cannot be registered if they are sold in a pet store. The CKC and breed clubs disallow it. Dogs in windows can't even be labelled as breeds; instead of "Bichon Frise" It's "Bichon type".


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## CorgiPaws

BrownieM said:


> Yeah...I've never heard of paying $10,000-$50,000 to purchase a dog....That is a bit excessive.



My boxer from champion lines, from fully health tested parents, raised by an awesome breeder was $1200 with 
a reasonable health guarantee and lifelong breeder support. 

In my experience with that pet store I frequently had to go in there. I saw two boxer pups with AWFUL saddlebacks for $1800 and a boxer/ pug mix they labeled a "bug" for $1500.


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## xxshaelxx

PuppyPaws said:


> In my experience with that pet store I frequently had to go in there. I saw two boxer pups with AWFUL saddlebacks for $1800 and a boxer/ pug mix they labeled a "bug" for $1500.


*searches for the "dislike" button.* BUGS?! *gags*


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## Caty M

The petland near my house had a sheltiexpoodle.. named a shedoodle. -.-


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## CorgiPaws

xxshaelxx said:


> *searches for the "dislike" button.* BUGS?! *gags*



Nevermind the AWFUL cutsie name... pug/ boxer. Can you IMAGINE the health issues?!


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## pandaparade

A local here told me about a GSD he bought for 16.. I said what? sixteen hundred? He replied, no, sixteen thousand. Now get this. THIS dog was from german lines however, the parents were not titled, and the dog he bought was retured to the breeder after living with another family in which the dog guarded their baby at all times. So basically he bought a dog with a "problem" for that much because why? Because he fell for the whole "Well if it's 16,000.. this dog MUST be worth it." They would not ship the dog and so he traveled to Florida to get the dog. Get this, they made him neuter the dog as well. High priced dogs do NOT always mean good things.


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## xxshaelxx

PuppyPaws said:


> Nevermind the AWFUL cutsie name... pug/ boxer. Can you IMAGINE the health issues?!


Personally...I prefer not to. I hate to even imagine the combination.


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## Caty M

Badly bred pug (breed known for health problems) x badly bred boxer (also known for health problems).. I can imagine.


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## DaneMama

We have a client with a 15 Month old sheepadoodle (old English sheepdog X poodle mix) they paid $1800 for. He's a nightmare of a dog that came from a petstore. Anyone considering a puppy mill, store bought puppy needs to spend one night with this dog, that is if they survive the whole night


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## BrownieM

PuppyPaws said:


> My boxer from champion lines, from fully health tested parents, raised by an awesome breeder was $1200 with
> a reasonable health guarantee and lifelong breeder support.
> 
> In my experience with that pet store I frequently had to go in there. I saw two boxer pups with AWFUL saddlebacks for $1800 and a boxer/ pug mix they labeled a "bug" for $1500.


Similar here. Both of my standard poodles, from AKC Champion parents, fully health tested and from breeders that we also still have lifelong support from, were both most definitely less than $1,800. I cannot imagine paying MORE than this for a pet shop puppy, supporting God knows who with this money and having no breeder support or health testing.


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## meggels

I went through a decent amount of time/effort to get my frenchie. I emailed mannnnnny breeders and found a few that I liked. I eventually settled on one that I just truly clicked with and really liked. Before agreeing to place a dog with me (in the future) she wanted to meet me first, so I came to watch her show up in Massachusetts. 

After she "approved" me after meeting me we discussed things further and she offered me an 8 month old male that would be getting petted out because he didn't pass his patella testing. He was pretty much my dream dog in terms of color, sex, etc and what I had always wanted in a future frenchie. 

Frenchie rescue is tough, a lot of the frenchies in rescue have health or temperament issues from being from BYB's. My lil dude comes from champion lines, was supposed to be a show prospect and is a BEAUTIFUL frenchie, a lot of other exhibitors and breeders adore him and are like "WHY WAS HE NEUTERED?!" and his parents health testing was clean and there were no patella issues, it just somehow showed up in him, but it doesn't bother him at all right now. 

I really wanted to do my homework with frenchies because they are a tough breed to begin with, so I wanted to have the best chance possible of getting a dog that I would love and be a great breed ambassador, and he certainly is. Everyone who meets him falls in love. 

I then drove the 4.5 hours to PA to pick him up. I got a hotel room for the night. It wasn't cheap, and he sure as hell wasn't cheap LOL. But I think you really need to be careful, take your time, and do your homework!

And I'm sure it's shallow, but I love how frenchies look. They just give me such joy, being such comical dogs that are so god damn cute (IMO). He melts my heart each day:











On the other hand, I have my mix that was rescued from a kill shelter in Arkansas with her siblings when she was just a few months old. I got her at 4.5 months. She's very anxious and timid, though she has improved in the year and a few months I've had her. But she's a challenge, each day. I love her, but she is tiring sometimes. I know this is NOT the case with every rescue, but it has been the case with mine. She is my heart dog in many ways, but sometimes I just wish she was a little more mentally "stable".


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## luvMyBRT

Celt said:


> It appears that most believe that if a person is unable to get a puppy from a rescue group, shelter, or a good, ethical breeder (Which seems to be defined as a breeder who limits the number of litters in a year, only breeds dogs that have been temperment and fully health tested (a minimum of 2 yrs wait, with some breeds being a minimum of 5), and preferably have shown their dogs to "prove" they're following the breed standard. They must rasie the litter in their home, not a kennel, and socialize the litter to various environments and experiences. These breeders will not sell a puppy before it is fully temperment tested (not done earlier than 6 weeks) or to people that they have not met. They will also want to maintain close contact with the puppy's new family.) then they do not deserve to get the dog of their "dreams" or should settle for what they are able to get.


Seriously??????? :faint:


:deadhorse::deadhorse::deadhorse::deadhorse::deadhorse::deadhorse::deadhorse:


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## cprcheetah

Ziva originally came from a Petshop, she is almost 1 year old and despite ALL my efforts to train her otherwise, still thinks it's okay to pee/poop on anything absorbant (carpet, beds in her crate, towels ANYTHING). I've tried several different methods, but CANNOT break her of it. She is slightly skittish, meaning if she isn't on a leash, there are times I can't catch her, as she runs away....again....we've worked and worked with her and can't break her of it. She's had demodex mange, and has an alopecia we're not sure of the cause. She's hyperactive (moreso than just a normal min pin) and reactive. I got her because the person who bought her from the petstore (my cousin) couldn't bond with her as she was always running away from him. Don't get me wrong, but I love her to pieces. I have been guilty of buying dogs from Petstores in the past (10+ years ago) and EVERY single one of them came with LOADS of baggage. The only 'semi-normal' one is my sisters Bouvier Des Flandres whom is 11 years old now, she had distemper when we bought her, and we bought her because we felt sorry for her as we saw her several times in one week without her looking any better. Personally I'd prefer to buy from a breeder where I can see the parents, know that the puppies are (most likely) socialized and well cared for before I get them.


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## magicre

luvMyBRT said:


> Seriously??????? :faint:
> 
> 
> :deadhorse::deadhorse::deadhorse::deadhorse::deadhorse::deadhorse::deadhorse:


LOL....that pretty much sums it up for me.....

seriously, though....all i've ever had are rescues....and i'm tired. and broke.

and that's not to say breeders of a certain kind are any better....

i just want a dog who is healthy out of the gate, minus the issues that plague the breed or as many as possible...and sweet.

'course, had i wanted children, i would have wanted that too. 

never said it was realistic, but a girl can dream, no? LOL


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## RachelsaurusRexU

I'm really kind of surprised by some of these responses regarding rescuing! I looooathe the stereotype that by adopting a dog you're getting somebody else's problems. 

I haven't had a ton of issues with my rescues. We've had minor things here and there that happen when dogs are being dogs, and a couple more serious things (Heartworm disease and a torn ACL). I have five dogs, the longest I've had for seven years and she's at least eight, my youngest is three and a half and I've had her since a pup. The others are on the higher side of in between. We also get hundreds of dogs through my shelter each year, and our adopters often keep in touch with us for years. In the scheme of things, most of these dogs are perfectly wonderful companions that got dealt a crappy hand in the form of a less than stellar human being who doesn't understand the meaning of the words "commitment" or "devotion". Do *some* of these dogs have minor issues that can very easily be corrected? Yup. Do *some* of them have major issues that require an adopter with a little more experience? Yup. Do *some* of them end up with expensive medical issues? Absolutely. But these are all things people should be prepared for when having a pet no matter how it was obtained, and I don't think it's fair to give people the impression that by adopting a dog they're going to end up with some neurotic nutcase of a money pit, because that could not be further from the truth. These dogs deserve amazing homes for all the crap that humans have dragged them through.

Now, that's not to say I have an issue with people purchasing dogs through great breeders. I absolutely don't. I have looked into breeders and would absolutely consider (and have considered) going that route at least once in my life. I just hate to see others being convinced that choosing to adopt a dog in need is automatically going to throw problem after problem their way, because it's not true! 

Also, there are shoddy, dishonest rescues just like there are shoddy, dishonest breeders. Do your research there, too! Me? I'll take my chances and stick with pound dogs and death row pulls for as long as I live.


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## AmeliaPond

I used to go into pet shops to look at dogs just because they are cute (I've never purchased a dog from a pet store.) But I can't do it anymore. It makes me way too sad and I just feel awful for all of the dogs. Thankfully, none of the shopping centers I go to have pet stores...so I don't have to walk by them at all anymore.

Now, when I need a "I want to look at dogs" fix, I just look at the dogs at the daycare at Petsmart....haha. Or I pet the dogs at adoption events there.


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## AmeliaPond

RachelsaurusRexU said:


> I'm really kind of surprised by some of these responses regarding rescuing! I looooathe the stereotype that by adopting a dog you're getting somebody else's problems.
> 
> I haven't had a ton of issues with my rescues. We've had minor things here and there that happen when dogs are being dogs, and a couple more serious things (Heartworm disease and a torn ACL). I have five dogs, the longest I've had for seven years and she's at least eight, my youngest is three and a half and I've had her since a pup. The others are on the higher side of in between. We also get hundreds of dogs through my shelter each year, and our adopters often keep in touch with us for years. In the scheme of things, most of these dogs are perfectly wonderful companions that got dealt a crappy hand in the form of a less than stellar human being who doesn't understand the meaning of the words "commitment" or "devotion". Do *some* of these dogs have minor issues that can very easily be corrected? Yup. Do *some* of them have major issues that require an adopter with a little more experience? Yup. Do *some* of them end up with expensive medical issues? Absolutely. But these are all things people should be prepared for when having a pet no matter how it was obtained, and I don't think it's fair to give people the impression that by adopting a dog they're going to end up with some neurotic nutcase of a money pit, because that could not be further from the truth. These dogs deserve amazing homes for all the crap that humans have dragged them through.
> 
> Now, that's not to say I have an issue with people purchasing dogs through great breeders. I absolutely don't. I have looked into breeders and would absolutely consider (and have considered) going that route at least once in my life. I just hate to see others being convinced that choosing to adopt a dog in need is automatically going to throw problem after problem their way, because it's not true!
> 
> Also, there are shoddy, dishonest rescues just like there are shoddy, dishonest breeders. Do your research there, too! Me? I'll take my chances and stick with pound dogs and death row pulls for as long as I live.


I agree with pretty much everything you said.

We love our shelter dog. Sure, she has some baggage. But not much. It's just "carry-on" size...haha. When we got her, she would panic when left alone. Now, she's much better with it. It's not her favorite thing in the world (I don't think she sleeps the whole time we're gone) but she does fine. I think we were the perfect people to adopt her because I'm currently not working (by choice) and my husband works from a home office. So our dog gets to be around us (mostly me) all day long. So she only has to be kenneled for a few hours here and there on weekends and occasional evenings.

As I mentioned before, our dog was abandoned by her owners at a boarding facility. She ended up living there for something like 10 months. (I think that's why she does fantastic at our boarding place when we go out of town. She was just so used to it before.) Even though she lived in a boarding place for that long...she was still basically house trained when we got her. We just changed her cue (which was to pace around) because we didn't like it. (Her new cue is to come over to us and sit in front of us when she has to go out.) Overall, she's been easy to train. And her personality suits our household perfectly. My husband laughs and says that she's the dog version of me. I think that's a good thing. I send occasional updates/photos to the lady from the rescue place. As well as to the woman who worked at the boarding place who finally convinced the owner to release the dog to a rescue group for adoption. I don't mind doing it at all. I love sharing photos of her.

I'm pretty sure any future dogs I get will come from shelters/rescue groups.

But yes...there are horrible rescues out there. In November, authorities shut down a lady who ran a "rescue" near me. She had over 100 dogs in her tiny house. The place was filthy. She wasn't techinically a hoarder because she adopted dogs out. But still...the conditions those dogs were living is was disgusting. Things have been tied up in the legal system since then. I really hope she doesn't get those dogs back.


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## Herzo

bishopthesheltie said:


> There are many rare breeds I would love to own, but if the pet store was the only reasonable way to get one, I wouldn't.
> 
> By the way, what do you guys think of working bred dogs? My dog was from working sheep herders (what my dog was meant to do..) not conformation bred. Obviously the line is healthy because there are 12 year old dogs still herding. I think the original instinct in a breed is as important as anything. JMHO.
> 
> His litter was still socialized with kids, dogs, cats, (and sheep, lol), and raised inside as pets.


I am one that loves to see a dog do what it was bred to do most of the time,I'll exclude fighting dogs here so you know I'm not talking about them.I'll go with the livestock dogs as I'm most familer with those anyway.I feel it is very important but I won't go so far as to say that people should not be allowed to own or breed if they can't do it.I think it's great yours came from working lines.Let me tell you allot of Border collies on ranches don't look like the ones at dog shows but I would be very leary about buying one if the parents were not proven for herding.Sheep and cattle ranchers rely on there dogs to much.But I also realise that allot of people don't have livestock to work or a place for there hound dogs to hunt.I really hate to see the natural instincts to be breed out of them.So I'm saying, I for one think it's very important but that's just me.


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## magicre

i'm not going to speak for anyone else.....and of course, if i ever see another bubba, i wouldn't hesitate to get him off that cable and the crate he slept on in the garage....

i guess, for me, it's a wish list.....i know i'm going to spend some money, with shots and neutering and doggie bowls and leashes and check ups and blood work.....

just one time, though i would like NOT to have to spend the price of a small car for a dog. between the two dogs we have right now, i can't even add up what i've spent.

would i spend it again? of course, these are my children.

just once, though..and i know it's a baseless wish, for nothing is perfect, i would love to get a dog that just needs food and love.


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## AmeliaPond

We've had our dog for almost 3 years. I have no idea what we've spent on her. I do a Wellness Plan at our vet so I pay a set amount and it covers most yearly stuff, all office visits, and gives me discounts on things like medicated shampoo I bought a while back. Our dog has only have some skin issues over the years so none of that has been expensive. The only expensive thing she's needed was a lump removed (although, in reality, she probably didn't need that.....long story, dumb vet.)

Compared to some people's pets, I'd say ours (so far) has been at the lower end of spending. Except since she was our first dog (as adults), we did need to buy basic stuff like dog bowls, beds, crates, etc. because we didn't have any.

I know what you mean though....it would be fantastic if our dog didn't have her skin problems. If it weren't for those, I think we'd only need to go to the vet every 6 months (for her check-ups) and that would be it besides spending on food, treats, toys, and boarding. I actually don't care so much about the money. It's more the stress that goes with wondering what is going on with your pet's health.


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## xxshaelxx

RachelsaurusRexU said:


> I'm really kind of surprised by some of these responses regarding rescuing! I looooathe the stereotype that by adopting a dog you're getting somebody else's problems.


We're not saying that ALL shelter dogs come with these issues, Rachel, we're saying that SOME of them CAN, and many of them have. If you would please reread what we wrote, and stop putting words in our mouths that ALL shelter dogs come with baggage, it would be greatly appreciated. As far as I know, no one on this thread has ANY stereotype against shelter dogs in that way, and I'm pretty sure I've seen plenty of people say that most shelter dogs don't come with baggage, BUT...

I, personally, have NO problem with people adopting from the shelters. I, however, would be very leery about it, because you can never be sure with cats. My dogs are fine around my cats INSIDE, but let the cats, but they see another, unfamiliar cat, and they go crazy trying to eat it, so I wouldn't want to adopt a dog and have it eat my cats, because that's something normal that dogs do, not just "baggage." I'm not saying I WOULDN'T adopt a dog because of that, but I'd be VERY picky about it. With puppies, it eliminates that fear of the dog eating the cat, because they're small enough for the cats to give them a good swat on the nose and have them learn not to mess with kitty, and then they grow up getting used to them.


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## RachelsaurusRexU

Okay...I'm confused. Not sure where I put words into anybody's mouth... I simply shared my experiences with adoption and stated that I feel the stereotypes many people have are unfair. ???


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## xxshaelxx

RachelsaurusRexU said:


> I'm really kind of surprised *by some of these responses regarding rescuing*! I looooathe the stereotype that by adopting a dog *you're getting* somebody else's problems.


This is what I'm talking about.


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## CorgiPaws

I want to clarify my stance. My post about "problem dogs" is in reference to PET SHOP puppies, not rescue dogs. 
I advocate rescuing. I've rescued three of my five dogs. I will obtain mine from ethical breeders in the future, for reasons I've stated.


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## RachelsaurusRexU

xxshaelxx said:


> This is what I'm talking about.


How exactly is that putting words in anyone's mouth?


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## xxshaelxx

RachelsaurusRexU said:


> How exactly is that putting words in anyone's mouth?


Well, you said that you were surprised by some of the responses you've seen here, then went on to talk about stereotypes of rescue dogs coming with problems. That implies that we're saying ALL rescue dogs come with problems, when that's NOT what anyone here said. We said that they CAN come with problems, and MANY of them do.


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## CorgiPaws

Simple misunderstanding and unintentional twisting of words. 

Put the issue to rest. No need to argue any further. Posts will be removed.


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## SerenityFL

About three years ago, I took a trip down to the Keys for a day. While walking around in Key West, I came upon a pet store. I do like to go in to pet stores to see what they have, toy wise, for my pets. In the window of this pet store were Italian Greyhounds for sale.

I believe I have mentioned, earlier, that one of my "dream" dogs is an Italian Greyhound. Being allowed to rescue one isn't that easy. They have delicate legs, they have teeth issues, and most rescues require that the person who adopts an Italian Greyhounds have previous experience with said dogs. I've been turned down for them in the past.

Seems I would never get my dream dog. 

Until I walked in to that pet store. Here I could have that dream dog. No one would ask me if I had experience or knew that their legs can easily break. No one would care if I knew jack about those dogs...as long as I gave them the money they wanted for the dog. I could have my dream dog. I would not be turned down again. This could be my lucky day. 

I passed up that opportunity because dream dog or not, I know that those dogs did not come from a respectable place. I know that by purchasing that dog, another dog somewhere was going to suffer for it. I know that even though this was a "dream" dog of mine, I could easily have one in the next 5 minutes, I was not helping in any way, I was adding to the problem.

You see, it didn't matter what my "dream" was at that moment. What mattered was, "Is this the right thing to do?" Not just for that particular dog but for the dog being bred, for any dog that came after it, for supporting this practice...THAT is what mattered. Sure, I could plop down a good chunk of change and have my dream dog but my dream and my money would cause unnecessary suffering for other dogs.

That is NOT worth it.

See, I have another dream as well. I have a dream that all backyard breeders and puppy mills be put out of business. How am I going to help make that happen if I pay for my dream dog?

Now, I have two hoodlum dogs who I consider rescues because we found them abandoned in the middle of the street.

And just a quick word on rescuing from shelters...sometimes the dog doesn't fit the family. That can indeed happen. I know that those shelters will take the animal back. If I were to bring a dog home from the shelter, I would do it at a time that I had a good few or more days off to spend with this animal and get the animal adjusted. I have cats. I would never allow that dog off leash in the house around my cats until I knew that they could get along. I would spend as much time as I could with this dog taking them all over the place to see how they reacted to different things. If it doesn't work, it doesn't work. It doesn't mean you are stuck for the rest of your life...you can take them back and try again. It's preferable that returning doesn't happen but they understand that sometimes it will. 

My hoodlums now...one didn't care about the cats at all and one could not get enough of messing with the cats. In fact, he still likes messing with the cats. He isn't trying to kill them, he wants to play but he plays too rough and I can also see things getting out of hand. So I have worked and worked and worked with him on how to behave himself around the cats. It has been a LOT of work but it's paying off. I can also see that he has a high prey drive. I don't know anything about his history, what he's mixed with....I just know he has a high prey drive so it is my responsibility to teach him that the cats are family members and he doesn't chase them. If he wants to bark and try to go after the neighbor cat who is outside all the time, he can try but I also know that the neighbor cat will beat him up like that cat has other dogs around here. 

The point is, it can indeed take more time, more patience and more training on a shelter dog but it can be done. And yes, some do come with baggage but I think a lot of them can adapt quite well if they are shown how to act.


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## AmeliaPond

The shelter/rescue where I got my dog actually had me sign a contract and one of the things on it said that if for whatever reason we didn't want/couldn't keep her....we'd agree to bring her back to the shelter. They take owner surrendered dogs fairly often. I'm sure most people who work with dogs know that some dogs just don't fit into families and sometimes need to be brought back. Sad, but true.

I'm going to guess most pet shops won't take any dog back for any reason.


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## Maxy24

I didn't feel like reading 11 pages so I figured I'd just respond to the OP. 
If someone really wants a certain breed of dog, then the last thing they would want to do is get one from a pet store. The whole point of breeds is to have dogs with specific looks and temperaments. Pet store puppies are bred for neither, they are bred simply to make money. They don't care if they breed their lazy border collies, aggressive Goldens, or 30 pound Papillons. In fact they have no idea what the temperaments of their dogs even are, they barely interact with them. So long as the puppy is going to be attractive in the pet shop window, they'll get bought, and the mill will keep pumping out more. Parents have no titles to prove either temperament or conformation. So someone who really, really wants a "insert breed here" is not guaranteed the temperament or conformation of said breed. So ethics aside, anyone looking for something specific (as you should be if you are looking for a purebred) could just as easily getting the complete opposite of what they want by going to a pet store. 

Now if someone doesn't really care about their dog having the perfect temperament/looks of some specific breed, then they shouldn't be looking for a breed in the first place. They should be looking for a shelter/rescue/rehome dog that is specific to their needs. If someone is willing to go to a pet store then to me, they should be equally willing to go to a rescue or shelter. An adult from a rescue is far more predictable in temperament and conformation than a pet store puppy. A pet store puppy is just as much of a crapshoot as a shelter/rescue puppy (neither was bred for a certain temperament of conformation). Just in one case you are paying someone to abuse dogs and in the other case you are paying someone to shelter homeless dogs.


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## CavePaws

Maxy, you hit the nail right on the head. I think that's my favorite post out of all 15 pages worth here. Nice job summing it up!


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## KittyKat

The OP mentioned how hard it was to find the dogs they wanted... they mentioned Shiba Inus (a breed that I would like to get one day). I typed in Shiba Inu Texas and got this as one of the first hits.

Hell one of the easiest ways to find breeders is to go to shows. I wanted to find Whippet breeders (because Whippets > Italian Greyhounds) so I went to a lure coursing event, dropped names of a few breeders and saw what the responses were (I got only positive responses). You can do that for Basenji's as well (There was a couple at the meet i went to who bred them). Dog shows are a great way to find people who are invested into the community, and people at those shows LOVE to talk. 

Research online is great, but I found out a lot more just by showing up to lure coursing events, and it solidified my decision to get a whippet, and let me know that the breeder I wanted to go with was one of those most invested in the sighthound community, and had been for many years. I got a great dog out of it, who is show quality (a bonus, since I kinda want to try and get her confirmed) with a beautiful temperament.

Any breeder who dumps their puppies off at a shop is not an ethical breeder. Puppies should be raised underfoot (in your house) and given extensive socialization. Breeders should want to hand off their puppies themselves to know just who will be getting them... their dogs should be important to them! 

Pipers breeder took them all over the place to interact with people. They were exposed to all her dogs (and her cat) and all came out great (wonderful temperaments). She was close to tears when handing them off. We've already had a meetup with some of her brothers and sisters, and are having one with all of them in June. The owners of all the other puppies are on my facebook (as well as the breeder) and we all share photos and news. I think it's the best outcome we could have hoped for.


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## Celt

First, the original question was hypothetical. It might surprise some that there are locations that if the people are lucky there will be 1 show/competition a year, if not the nearest show will probably be some distance away. On my comment, on the "pricing" of a puppy, I was thinking that it could easily take a person several visits to breeders to determine if a pup would match. The cost of gas and hotel rooms could easily get rather costly. On the health testing front, it is possible to perform adequate testing by 2 yrs but not many people were talking about adequate testing. It's been reported that in King Charles Cavalier Spaniels, a dog can be tested and determined to be asymptomatic for Syringomyelia (Chiari-like malformation), but some dogs don't develop symptoms until later, usually by 5. It is recommended that any dog who develops symptoms not be bred as well as its offspring. Another recommendation is that dogs that develop early onset MVD, not be bred but this doesn't usually show until age 5. IMO, it would make better sense to wait until a dog is 5 to determine if they have these "disorders" rather than breeding them, then finding out. Second, I did answer that I was looking at 3 breeds, but at this point it really is just looking at. It takes me a while before I'm comfortable in my "knowledge" of a breed. As my hubby puts it, I like to know the breed from the bones out.
Off topic: How does a person determine if a 2 week old puppy is show quality? I mean a pup is barely "toddling" at that age


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## 3Musketeers

Celt said:


> Off topic: How does a person determine if a 2 week old puppy is show quality? I mean a pup is barely "toddling" at that age


Depends on the breed, for example, a Papiilon with a white face, eye/s, or ear/s is automatically disqualified, you could tell from the day the puppy is born. In this case it's a silly rule that has absolutely no effect on the quality of the dog health-wise.

For things like body-type, ear carriage, etc. I'd imagine it'd be hard to tell until the puppies get older. Does a champion show dog = healthy dog, no. But, it's not to say that there aren't ethical show-breeders either.


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## AmeliaPond

Geez...after this thread, I have to say....I'm quite happy that I'm not super picky about the breed/appearance of a dog. Based solely on appearances, I can always find dogs I like on petfinder and rescue sites. (Just today I saw this one that I think it adorable - Hearts United for Animals | Foxy Arizona) Not to say I'd just adopt any old dog, I'd have to visit it many times and find out as much about it as possible (that's what I did before getting our current dog.) But I'm glad I don't have to stress about finding the right breeder or any of that. It seems pretty complicated.


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## Celt

3Musketeers--I know it could be easy to tell if a pup wasn't show quality at that age, but I've seen comments about a pup being show quality at this age. I just can't figure out how someone would be able to tell at that age.


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## CorgiPaws

Celt said:


> 3Musketeers--I know it could be easy to tell if a pup wasn't show quality at that age, but I've seen comments about a pup being show quality at this age. I just can't figure out how someone would be able to tell at that age.



I've never seen one deemed show quality. I have seen show potential. Huge difference. You can tell which pups look most promising before you can pick ones for the ring.

Know thy breed.


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## xxshaelxx

Celt said:


> First, the original question was hypothetical. It might surprise some that there are locations that if the people are lucky there will be 1 show/competition a year, if not the nearest show will probably be some distance away. On my comment, on the "pricing" of a puppy, I was thinking that it could easily take a person several visits to breeders to determine if a pup would match. The cost of gas and hotel rooms could easily get rather costly


Dogs of a certain breed are going to have a pretty set personality, except for your rare, oddball out, and the only things to really look for are energy levels and things like that, and when breeders spend a lot of time with their pups, this is not something hard to do, and therefore, the person doesn't NEED to visit the litter every few weeks to see if the pup will fit in. Most of the personality is also molded once the puppy arrives home. Most pups personalities will mold to the situation, except for things like energy and excitability.



Celt said:


> On the health testing front, it is possible to perform adequate testing by 2 yrs but not many people were talking about adequate testing. It's been reported that in King Charles Cavalier Spaniels, a dog *can be tested and determined to be asymptomatic for Syringomyelia (Chiari-like malformation)*, but some dogs don't develop symptoms until later, usually by 5. It is recommended that any dog who develops symptoms not be bred as well as its offspring. Another recommendation is that dogs that develop early onset MVD, not be bred but this doesn't usually show until age 5. IMO, it would make better sense to wait until a dog is 5 to determine if they have these "disorders" rather than breeding them, then finding out.


If they test positive for it, then don't breed. If they test negative for it, then breed. It's as simple as that.



Celt said:


> Off topic: How does a person determine if a 2 week old puppy is show quality? I mean a pup is barely "toddling" at that age


They don't determine whether a puppy is show quality by the time it's two weeks old. That's probably done at about six weeks.


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## Celt

PuppyPaws--I understand that a pup can show potential, but at 2 wks? I didn't think you could tell much of anything on a pup that young.And I've seen comments along the lines of the pup being picked because it was show/breeding quality. 
xxshaelxx--On the Cavilear Spaniels, supposedly there are so few dogs that do not have these disorders that the "breeding pool" would be too limited to maintain the breed, so asymptomatic dogs or dogs who develop MVD later in life are "allowed" to breed. As for the visiting, I was thinking more of the searching phase of getting a puppy, and the likely hood of needing to visit more than 1 breeder. Imo, a breed may have a set personality type, but there is usually a range within most types. I've seen/heard comments from people saying they are getting a show quality pup when the pup is only 2 wks old, which is why I was wondering how this decision was made.


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## luvMyBRT

Celt said:


> PuppyPaws--I understand that a pup can show potential, but at 2 wks? I didn't think you could tell much of anything on a pup that young.And I've seen comments along the lines of the pup being picked because it was show/breeding quality.


I am pretty sure that an ethical breeder that has been breeding, showing and training a certain breed (say Black Russian Terriers) for OVER 30 years has a pretty darn good idea of what puppies show potential for showing and what puppies would be more pet quality at a very young age. Like Linsey said, know thy breed.


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## BrownieM

Most of the reputable breeders I have seen will have show "prospects" at a very young age (maybe as young as 2 weeks) based on tail carriage, head, ear placement, eyes, angulation, feet, etc. This doesn't mean the puppy will definitely be show quality, or what have you.

In fact, I hear breeders talk about how difficult it is to make a guess even by 8-12 weeks when the pup goes home! Show prospects do not always end up developing the way the breeder hoped. It is only a guess based on what a breeder experienced with the breed can determine at that time.


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## CorgiPaws

Celt said:


> PuppyPaws--I understand that a pup can show potential, but at 2 wks? I didn't think you could tell much of anything on a pup that young.And I've seen comments along the lines of the pup being picked because it was show/breeding quality.


While there is a lot of truth to this statement, you have no idea what my particular situation is. :smile:
I will clarify right here that breeding quality and show quality are NOT interchangeable terms. It annoys me to see them used as such. 
I never once said that I was getting a show quality pup. I have ZERO interest in the twisted world of showing dogs. None. The more I experienced it, the more I hated it. This may be because of my breeds of choice, maybe other breeds don't get so terrible. 
This particular litter is a good looking litter, from good looking HEALTHY parents. What makes this pup the CHOICE male for me, is based greatly on his color and what he has to offer MY breeding program. Being a breeding PROSPECT means that he has potential. He may or may not develop into what we're hoping for. I had the choice to put a deposit on a "male" and have my pick at 6 weeks old, or to pick him out now and reserve him and only him. Being emotionally invested already, I couldn't turn him away even if he's not the foundation male I'm hoping for. 
I don't believe that only the choicest of the choice should be bred. I feel this limits the gene pool to a dangerous extent, and that it means resorting to line breeding, which is just devastating. Will he have flaws? Well sure, every dog does, even CH dogs. If his weaknesses outweigh his strengths, then he will be neutered, and I will search out another male of the color of my liking from an equal quality litter. Otherwise, provided health testing clears, he will be bred to a female whose strengths compliment his weaknesses. 


I've not claimed him to be show quality. No, since he is not LINE BRED, he's more likely healthier than most of the danes in the show ring. I wouldn't give him the insult of that title.


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## meggels

We've had frenchies that were show potential and at 8 months, have been neutered or spayed now after not turning out. The woman/breeder I live with is pretty picky and can tell from the moment they are born what she does and doesn't like, who is automatically going to be a pet and who she wants to keep her eye on. Again, this can change a lot after weeks and months, but when they come out she can even tell who is shorter in body *desirable* vs longer *not* and things like ear sets, who has a substantial amount of bone and overall movement by a few months.


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## Celt

PuppyPaws--I'm sorry if you felt that I was speaking about you personally, but I wasn't. There are quite a few people who I've heard say that their pup is show/breeding quality (most of the time in the comments I've heard these 2 go together). I was truly wondering what did a person look for in these little pups. So far, I can see how body length and color can be used to determine this, but this age just seems so "unformed" to me that it makes it hard for me to understand choosing a pup of this age. Again, I'm sorry for any bad feelings I may have caused.


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## xxshaelxx

Celt said:


> On the Cavilear Spaniels, supposedly there are so few dogs that do not have these disorders that the "breeding pool" would be too limited to maintain the breed, so asymptomatic dogs or dogs who develop MVD later in life are "allowed" to breed.


The reason why so few dogs do not have this disorder is BECAUSE of places like puppy mills or backyard breeders or breeders who just don't give a damn about the puppies, but just about making money. So why are we advocating for the problem to become even bigger? And if their still allowed to breed, then the point you were trying to make about health testing and some dogs not showing signs until they're five years old or whatever is a moot point. They're going to breed the dog regardless.



Celt said:


> As for the visiting, I was thinking more of the searching phase of getting a puppy, and the likely hood of needing to visit more than 1 breeder. Imo, a breed may have a set personality type, but there is usually a range within most types. I've seen/heard comments from people saying they are getting a show quality pup when the pup is only 2 wks old, which is why I was wondering how this decision was made.


Have you not read anything we've posted? You don't HAVE to go visit the kennel to be sure of the breeder's practices, you can generally tell by having a good, long talk with the person over the phone or whatever. I don't think that Linsey (PuppyPaws) went to visit her breeder before deciding to get a pup from her.


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## BrownieM

Celt said:


> PuppyPaws--I'm sorry if you felt that I was speaking about you personally, but I wasn't. There are quite a few people who I've heard say that their pup is show/breeding quality (most of the time in the comments I've heard these 2 go together). I was truly wondering what did a person look for in these little pups. So far, I can see how body length and color can be used to determine this, but this age just seems so "unformed" to me that it makes it hard for me to understand choosing a pup of this age. Again, I'm sorry for any bad feelings I may have caused.


Yes, with poodles if you have a puppy with a mismark or incorrect pigment, you know automatically that that dog will not be able to show in the ring. Other things, like ear placement, tailset and head can still be guestimated by 8-12 weeks of age. This doesn't mean that they won't develop differently.

Now, I don't think that show quality is always synonymous with breeding quality. Not all Champions should be bred and not all untitled bitches don't have something to offer. There's a lot of politics in the show ring and I see dogs finish that have some pretty glaring faults! 

But for me, personally? Well, I want a puppy that is healthy, has a great temperament AND is conformationally correct. A pet store or a BYB isn't going to care if they are breeding puppies with incorrect pigment, broad skulls or low, lab-like tails. I _want_ my dog to fit the breed standard as much as possible. I don't want a low tail set, heavy head, round eyes, flat feet, straight stifle or poor temperament. I also don't want a puppy from a breeder who is so ignorant they don't think health testing is necessary. I don't want to support a breeder who breeds "rare" or "disqualifying" colors because they can make an extra buck.

Someone who is just breeding pet quality puppies, not trying to improve the breed, not trying to "breed up", etc. is just a BYB in my mind. I know this opinion may not be shared by others, but it is mine.


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## xxshaelxx

BrownieM said:


> But for me, personally? Well, I want a puppy that is healthy, has a great temperament AND is conformationally correct. A pet store or a BYB isn't going to care if they are breeding puppies with incorrect pigment, broad skulls or low, lab-like tails. I _want_ my dog to fit the breed standard as much as possible. I don't want a low tail set, heavy head, round eyes, flat feet, straight stifle or poor temperament. I also don't want a puppy from a breeder who is so ignorant they don't think health testing is necessary. I don't want to support a breeder who breeds "rare" or "disqualifying" colors because they can make an extra buck.


On that note, I also want to point out the original question in this thread, that would it be alright if there's no other options and you want a specific breed. Well, every single puppy I've ever seen in a pet store has looked like either a completely different breed than what it's supposed to be, or a mix. I saw one puppy that was labelled as rottweiler, but it had a very narrow muzzle, a long back, and extremely short legs. Even the coloring was completely wrong, like the markings. If you're looking for a certain breed, then you're looking for looks or personality, and I would say this dog had neither.


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