# Right amount of nutrients?



## carbonxxkidd (Oct 16, 2012)

I have two dogs, an almost 3 year old mini Dachshund named Titan and a year and a half year old 52lb mixed breed dog named Orion. I am feeding both dogs Fromm Gold right now and they are both doing excellent. Titan eats 1/4 cup a day and Orion eats 1 cup a day. Both are in excellent shape and are not underweight at all. They also get treats and the occasional raw snack (which I am playing around with the idea of increasing their raw intake).

A lot of people freak out when I tell them how much my dogs eat. Like I said, they are healthy and at the perfect weight for their body size, but apparently 1 cup of food is not a lot for a 52lb dog. He was eating 2 cups a day and was 6lbs heavier and my dog trainer (who is also a vet tech) told me he was fat and so I cut him back, slowly, until we reached 1 cup and he has been holding at 52lbs for a few months now. I was also told Titan was fat when he weighed 13.2lbs and was eating 1/2 cup of food a day and now he weighs 12.4lbs while on 1/4 cup a day. My mom jokes that I starve them because they only eat so much a day (she free-feeds her yorkies). I joke that if given the chance they would each eat a 40lb bag of food in one sitting, haha! 

Anyway, my question is, are they getting the proper amount of nutrients by eating these small amounts of kibble? The way I see it, Fromm is a fairly high quality food and so they should be eating less than a dog that's on say, Iams or something, but am still wondering if this is enough. 

If you would like to see pictures of my dogs, they each have their own photo-a-day blog:
365 days of Titan
365 days of Orion

Thanks in advance!


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## Unosmom (May 3, 2009)

different dogs have different metabolisms, it also depends on how much they are burning off. As long as they are healthy, have energy and no ribs are protruding, you should be fine.


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## carbonxxkidd (Oct 16, 2012)

Unosmom said:


> different dogs have different metabolisms, it also depends on how much they are burning off. As long as they are healthy, have energy and no ribs are protruding, you should be fine.


Thanks for the reassurance! I feel like they are doing excellent, but my mom and others who have commented on the small amounts they are eating has me over analyzing it.


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## Jacksons Mom (Jun 13, 2010)

I agree, I think every dog is different. 

I'm pretty sure Jackson (16lbs) would die of starvation on 1/4 cup per day, LOL... but my dad _always _thinks he's being starved. He eats about 2/3 cup per day of Fromm on an active day, and 1/2 cup per day on a lazy day. He always gets at least a spoonful of wet food, as well as a few treats, etc, and maintains well. But he's for the most part very active and seems to have a fast metabolism anyways. 

Your dogs are gorgeous!


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## carbonxxkidd (Oct 16, 2012)

Jacksons Mom said:


> I agree, I think every dog is different.
> 
> I'm pretty sure Jackson (16lbs) would die of starvation on 1/4 cup per day, LOL... but my dad _always _thinks he's being starved. He eats about 2/3 cup per day of Fromm on an active day, and 1/2 cup per day on a lazy day. He always gets at least a spoonful of wet food, as well as a few treats, etc, and maintains well. But he's for the most part very active and seems to have a fast metabolism anyways.
> 
> Your dogs are gorgeous!


Thank you! Your dog is super cute too! Is he a Yorkie with an un-cropped tail or a mix? 

Sometimes they act like they are starving, but only at meal times, haha. Or I guess if we go to my mom's house where she usually has her dog's food out all the time - if she forgets to pick it up before we get there both of my boys will run as fast as they can upstairs to the food and scarf as much as they possibly can before I get there to stop them. I really think most of that stems from the fact that they have only been fed a certain amount of food from the time they were fairly young. Dachshunds tend to overeat and be super fat (probably 99% of the ones I have seen have been obese) and I did not want that for my little man.


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## Felix (Oct 9, 2012)

My dog is right around 53lbs and he gets 1.5 cups of food a day. Working at a pet store, I meet people that feed that much to their (portly) bishon's and their jaw hits the ground when I tell them how much my dog eats and his size. So I know what you're coming from. But I think that's appropriate for your size dog. As long as they have good energy and ribs and hips aren't protruding they are good! I've also met a 120lb dog that gets 2 cups of food a day. Different dog, different requirements. Such is life, nothing is set in stone…or on a label on a bag.

I also met another lady that said her dog was too thin, I thought she looked excellent and told them so. It's so sad that people think that a healthy dog is a round dog. I've been told by customers that I look too thin as well and that I should eat something :\


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## carbonxxkidd (Oct 16, 2012)

Felix said:


> My dog is right around 53lbs and he gets 1.5 cups of food a day. Working at a pet store, I meet people that feed that much to their (portly) bishon's and their jaw hits the ground when I tell them how much my dog eats and his size. So I know what you're coming from. But I think that's appropriate for your size dog. As long as they have good energy and ribs and hips aren't protruding they are good! I've also met a 120lb dog that gets 2 cups of food a day. Different dog, different requirements. Such is life, nothing is set in stone…or on a label on a bag.
> 
> I also met another lady that said her dog was too thin, I thought she looked excellent and told them so. It's so sad that people think that a healthy dog is a round dog. I've been told by customers that I look too thin as well and that I should eat something :\


I know a lot of people that like fat pets...what is wrong with them!?! Don't they realize that those few extra pounds are cutting years off the lives of their dogs and cats? It makes me sad. I'd rather have my dogs a little lean than overweight any day.

I saw someone the other day who has a 7 month old Neapolitan Mastiff who weighs 90lbs and eats 10 cups a day. I understand the dog is growing and will probably eventually weigh 200lbs, but isn't that a lot of food? The most Orion ever ate was 3 cups a day when he was a pup, and then he got knocked down to two, and so on. He was very underweight when I got him but it didn't take long for him to get nice and plump!


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## Georgiapeach (Jan 24, 2011)

My ~13 lb. poodle and my ~13 pound westie mix east 1/2 c. per day, but I adjust that as needed, depending on their body condition. I feel their ribs frequently. They're both fairly active, esp. the westie mix - lots of running/playing fetch. My boxer, around 54 lb., eats 2 2/3 c. per day - he's also pretty active. I feed a grain free food, which is calorie dense/higher protein/ lower carb, so I don't need to feed as much of it as a filler filled food. I feed less than the kibble bag says (not surprising - the company's trying to sell its food, after all!). 

If your dogs are a good weight, don't worry what the quantity of food is.


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## carbonxxkidd (Oct 16, 2012)

Georgiapeach said:


> My ~13 lb. poodle and my ~13 pound westie mix east 1/2 c. per day, but I adjust that as needed, depending on their body condition. I feel their ribs frequently. They're both fairly active, esp. the westie mix - lots of running/playing fetch. My boxer, around 54 lb., eats 2 2/3 c. per day - he's also pretty active. I feed a grain free food, which is calorie dense/higher protein/ lower carb, so I don't need to feed as much of it as a filler filled food. I feed less than the kibble bag says (not surprising - the company's trying to sell its food, after all!).
> 
> If your dogs are a good weight, don't worry what the quantity of food is.


When I first got Titan, I was feeding him as much as it said to on the bag. I talked to another doxie owner a few months later and she suggested I only feed around 1/2 cup to keep him slim. Now I know not to trust the bags! Thanks for replying, it's nice to know that as long as they look and act healthy they should be fine.


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## DaViking (Sep 27, 2011)

Is Orion neutered or intact? From the pictures none of them look underweight or malnourished in any shape or form. Orion is on the lean side and could maybe build a little more muscle. Year and a half is prime muscle building time. Intake of calories is not an exact science as many have pointed out and the ultimate evidence is in front of you. However, I would say you are a little on the light side. The guide for adult neutered dogs with an average activity level at his projected weight is something between 1100 and 1400 calories per day. Note, it's only a rough guide. I would up Orion' food somewhat and see how it goes. Maybe half a cup extra per day?


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## carbonxxkidd (Oct 16, 2012)

DaViking said:


> Is Orion neutered or intact? From the pictures none of them look underweight or malnourished in any shape or form. Orion is on the lean side and could maybe build a little more muscle. Year and a half is prime muscle building time. Intake of calories is not an exact science as many have pointed out and the ultimate evidence is in front of you. However, I would say you are a little on the light side. The guide for adult neutered dogs with an average activity level at his projected weight is something between 1100 and 1400 calories per day. Note, it's only a rough guide. I would up Orion' food somewhat and see how it goes. Maybe half a cup extra per day?


He is neutered. It's so hard to judge because I think he looks perfect (I agree he is lean, but I like him that way) and my dog trainer says he should weigh about 48lbs! I definitely don't want him losing any more weight. He had a bought of lameness last March and I'm not really sure what caused it (growth spurt, muscle strain or hip issues is my guess) and since then I figured it'd be better to keep him a little thin...he hasn't had any lameness since. According to Fromm's website, his food only has 480kcal per cup, which is significantly less than he should be getting according to your chart. Maybe I just need to feed him more and exercise him more? We go to the dog park a couple times a week and take daily 2+mile walks but maybe he needs more than that. I will have to work myself up to being more active, haha!


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## Felix (Oct 9, 2012)

carbonxxkidd said:


> When I first got Titan, I was feeding him as much as it said to on the bag. I talked to another doxie owner a few months later and she suggested I only feed around 1/2 cup to keep him slim. Now I know not to trust the bags! Thanks for replying, it's nice to know that as long as they look and act healthy they should be fine.


Never feed as much as they say on the bag. I have switched my dog countless times, but always kept the amount I fed the same, monitor and adjust as needed. I hate when customers say, they are feeding the amount the bag says to and wonders why their animal is fat! I just slap myself on the head and recommend they don't even look at the bag. Usually they are feeding for the weight their dog currently IS not what they WANT them to be. Feed a 60# dog like a 90# dog, guess what his weight is going to be? Duh! Not saying you guys, just venting, LOL! 

When I point that out, the lightbulb goes on in their head, and they state, they never even thought of that. Really?!


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## domika (Jul 15, 2012)

If your dog looks fine in weight to you then I would disregard what others comment about his food intake. And I think it's better to be on the slim side than the overweight side. 

Most of the time when I see an overweight dog the weight reflects off of the owners weight and habits. Your dogs look great to me!


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## carbonxxkidd (Oct 16, 2012)

domika said:


> If your dog looks fine in weight to you then I would disregard what others comment about his food intake. And I think it's better to be on the slim side than the overweight side.
> 
> Most of the time when I see an overweight dog the weight reflects off of the owners weight and habits. Your dogs look great to me!


I agree, most of the time fat dogs have fat or lazy owners. I read somewhere that "If your dog is fat, you aren't getting enough exercise" and that is so true! 



Felix said:


> Never feed as much as they say on the bag. I have switched my dog countless times, but always kept the amount I fed the same, monitor and adjust as needed. I hate when customers say, they are feeding the amount the bag says to and wonders why their animal is fat! I just slap myself on the head and recommend they don't even look at the bag. Usually they are feeding for the weight their dog currently IS not what they WANT them to be. Feed a 60# dog like a 90# dog, guess what his weight is going to be? Duh! Not saying you guys, just venting, LOL!
> 
> When I point that out, the lightbulb goes on in their head, and they state, they never even thought of that. Really?!


Now that I know, my animals will never eat that much! When I got Orion I had to play around with his food at first because I wasn't sure what a puppy of his size should eat, considering he was much larger than Titan will ever be. We figured it out and everything is great now. I have a friend who has a dog that weighs 110lbs and should probably weigh 90. She asks me for advice because she knows he's heavy, but she is having trouble actually getting weight off. He gets lots of exercise but she says he's eating "2 scoops" of food per meal and she has no idea how much food is in those scoops. I personally use actual measuring cups for my dogs food, but I told her to start by giving him 1 and 3/4 of a scoop per meal and slowly adjust down until he's at a healthy weight. Very curious to see if she can manage to thin him down some.


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## monster'sdad (Jul 29, 2012)

Your dog is eating half as much protein as is usually recommended. One cup of Fromm Gold has about 24 grams of crude protein. The guidance is 1 gram per lb of body weight. He may not look thin on the outside, possibly due to his coat, but you should be concerned about soft tissue injuries from a lack of protein and the risk of internal injury from a lack of body cavity fat.

Also very thin animals do not recover as quickly from infection as dogs at proper or slighly higher weight, for whatever reason.


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## kathylcsw (Jul 31, 2011)

monster'sdad said:


> Your dog is eating half as much protein as is usually recommended. One cup of Fromm Gold has about 24 grams of crude protein. The guidance is 1 gram per lb of body weight. He may not look thin on the outside, possibly due to his coat, but you should be concerned about soft tissue injuries from a lack of protein and the risk of internal injury from a lack of body cavity fat.
> 
> *Also very thin animals do not recover as quickly from infection as dogs at proper or slighly higher weight, for whatever reason*.


I would be interested in seeing the research on this as I have never heard it before. Also where is the line between lean and "very thin?" How is "proper weight" determined. That seems a very loaded statement that you made and some factual links would be helpful.


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## Felix (Oct 9, 2012)

monster'sdad said:


> Your dog is eating half as much protein as is usually recommended. One cup of Fromm Gold has about 24 grams of crude protein. The guidance is 1 gram per lb of body weight. He may not look thin on the outside, possibly due to his coat, but you should be concerned about soft tissue injuries from a lack of protein and the risk of internal injury from a lack of body cavity fat.
> 
> Also very thin animals do not recover as quickly from infection as dogs at proper or slighly higher weight, for whatever reason.


I'm not even going to start on this statement...


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## Penny & Maggie's Mom (May 19, 2009)

kathylcsw said:


> I would be interested in seeing the research on this as I have never heard it before. Also where is the line between lean and "very thin?" How is "proper weight" determined. That seems a very loaded statement that you made and some factual links would be helpful.


I've heard the 1 gr of protein per lb of body weight many times from vets. Diet Manual | College of Veterinary Medicine


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## Penny & Maggie's Mom (May 19, 2009)

Also, as far as body condition

http://vet.osu.edu/vmc/body-condition-scoring-chart


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## Caty M (Aug 13, 2010)

I don't think the 1gm/lb rule is very important- all my dogs require much more than that and none are working dogs. All are active and have good muscle tone. Now granted they do eat raw but I have one that eats ~5g/lb, and two that are currently getting ~10g/lb (going off USDA information).


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## Caty M (Aug 13, 2010)

And the dogs look just right- not too fat or too thin. Keeping the dogs in shape with a lot of muscle tone is the most important factor in avoiding injuries and such.


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## DaViking (Sep 27, 2011)

The NRC guidance is generous at 22 grams per every 400 kcal fed, 1353 kcals for a 50lb dog. AAFCO modifies this to 18% protein. The NRC recommendation is meant to cover all stages of the life cycle.
ADVANCE: Protein Requirements
http://dels-old.nas.edu/dels/rpt_briefs/dog_nutrition_final.pdf
Older discussion from Rutgers on protein requirements in young and old dogs


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## herl (Oct 11, 2012)

Caty, 10g/lb of body weight? If your dog is eating 10g/lb protein, do you mean that if your dog weighs 40lbs he is eating 400g protein per day? 

This is probably the most clearly written explanation for calculation that I've seen. Meat Zola: Using Dog Food Math to Unravel Protein Needs | Alas, turns out the old measuring cup is not exactly a precision instrument after all. 

I've also been told the starting point is 1g/lb or so. From there factor in the activity levels, the protein source and the digestibility of the protein. This is where it gets complicated for me, calculating the percent of protein from animal vs. other sources and then how digestible that protein is, but I think this is key to determining how much protein the dog actually is getting out of that measuring cup! Most important however is the the condition of the dog. Any guideline is just a starting point, and the response of the dog will determine what is actually "right". I like my dogs on the lean side, so I'm always concerned that they get enough usable protein.


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## DaViking (Sep 27, 2011)

herl said:


> Caty, 10g/lb of body weight? If your dog is eating 10g/lb protein, do you mean that if your dog weighs 40lbs he is eating 400g protein per day?
> 
> This is probably the most clearly written explanation for calculation that I've seen. Meat Zola: Using Dog Food Math to Unravel Protein Needs | Alas, turns out the old measuring cup is not exactly a precision instrument after all.
> 
> I've also been told the starting point is 1g/lb or so. From there factor in the activity levels, the protein source and the digestibility of the protein. This is where it gets complicated for me, calculating the percent of protein from animal vs. other sources and then how digestible that protein is, but I think this is key to determining how much protein the dog actually is getting out of that measuring cup! Most important however is the the condition of the dog. Any guideline is just a starting point, and the response of the dog will determine what is actually "right". I like my dogs on the lean side, so I'm always concerned that they get enough usable protein.


I like that article a lot. The author could maybe also done a guesstimate of animal protein (if Diamond refused to disclose) and added (subtracted or adjusted) that to the equation too. Beyond that things starts to get really blurry.


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## herl (Oct 11, 2012)

It does become a blur at a certain point. For instance, if pea protein is essentially a protein powder at 90% protein and we don't know the weight of that powder in the formula, we can't calculate what it contributes to percentage of protein listed on the bag, nor can we accurately determine digestibility? Thus, a calculation for grams/lb of usable protein as fed would be skewed. At this point I would be satisfied to know what is actually in the food, that it is not contaminated, irradiated or genetically engineered and that those ingredients in combination will be acceptable to meet the nutritional needs. Apparently this is a lot to ask. Really. I mean it.


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## InkedMarie (Sep 9, 2011)

For Monsters Dad, in regards to your comment about protein....if what you say is true, would feeding a food that has more meat in it work and not add too much weight to the dogs?


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## carbonxxkidd (Oct 16, 2012)

I am also curious - is there a way to add more protein without adding more of the other stuff? When my dog was eating a cup and a half or two cups per day he was significantly heavier and I would prefer to keep him right where he's at!


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## monster'sdad (Jul 29, 2012)

kathylcsw said:


> I would be interested in seeing the research on this as I have never heard it before. Also where is the line between lean and "very thin?" How is "proper weight" determined. That seems a very loaded statement that you made and some factual links would be helpful.


Anyone that has raised any sort of mammal knows that underweight animals are at a higher risk to virtually any type of infection whether bacterial, fungal or viral. Underweight animals have weaker immune systems, lower energy stores and abnormal hormonal patterns. 

I am surprised you have not heard this before, it is not a secret. This is why anyone who raises any animal commercially wants fairly rapid growth and early body mass. I don't believe it is loaded at all, how can a fact be loaded.

The issue is there is a fine line between textbook perfect weight and a rapid decline to underweight from illness. Dogs that are already underweight are at the greatest risk. If you have ever seen a dog with Anaplasmosis you would know how quickly the stress off the infection reduceds fat stores. So a dog that is starting from an underweight condition is in deep doo doo.

There is something to be said about using a richer food and feeding less, but it can go too far especially when you do this with high fat food that is not needed in the first place and you cut back too much at the expense of protein and vitamins. 

The average 50lb dog should get at least 50 grams of protein everyday. Anyway you slice that it will add up to least 800 calories. If your dog gains weight on that feed something with the same protein but less fat, and more fat if the dog need to gain a bit. Trade fat for carbs and vice-versa.


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## monster'sdad (Jul 29, 2012)

InkedMarie said:


> For Monsters Dad, in regards to your comment about protein....if what you say is true, would feeding a food that has more meat in it work and not add too much weight to the dogs?


Yes, if you have a dog that is predisposed to weight gain on say a normal 26/16 food, try a food with the same protein and lower fat or like you said higher protein with the same fat. In the latter case, you will feed a bit less food compared to the former.

Generally, the greater the spread between protein and fat, the lower the risk of weight gain. Why do hunters love 24/20's? Easy cause the dog hold weight, small spread. Why are newer diet formulas 30% protein and 10% fat? Easy, cause the wider the spread the more protein calories vs fat calories. Fat calories have the greatest impact on weight gain or loss than protein or carbs calories.


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## Felix (Oct 9, 2012)

monster'sdad said:


> Anyone that has raised any sort of mammal knows that underweight animals are at a higher risk to virtually any type of infection whether bacterial, fungal or viral. Underweight animals have weaker immune systems, lower energy stores and abnormal hormonal patterns.
> 
> I am surprised you have not heard this before, it is not a secret. *This is why anyone who raises any animal commercially wants fairly rapid growth and early body mass*. I don't believe it is loaded at all, how can a fact be loaded.
> 
> ...


No it isn't! You want fast growth and 'early body mass' so you can get that animal out and slaughtered faster! Converting feed to gain is what it's all about. I wouldn't consider my dog with commercial animals though, we want steady lean growth in pets because they lead longer lives. And it IS true that fatter animals have MORE health problems, can you say diabetes, arthritis, etc?'

ETA: No one said that their dogs are underweight, but a good weight. Where they used to be al little bit overweight, a decrease in amount of food solves that problem very nicely


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## InkedMarie (Sep 9, 2011)

monster'sdad said:


> Yes, if you have a dog that is predisposed to weight gain on say a normal 26/16 food, try a food with the same protein and lower fat or like you said higher protein with the same fat. In the latter case, you will feed a bit less food compared to the former.
> 
> Generally, the greater the spread between protein and fat, the lower the risk of weight gain. Why do hunters love 24/20's? Easy cause the dog hold weight, small spread. Why are newer diet formulas 30% protein and 10% fat? Easy, cause the wider the spread the more protein calories vs fat calories. Fat calories have the greatest impact on weight gain or loss than protein or carbs calories.


Thanks for answering. Back when we adopted an obese dog, I was chastised by one person for not feeding her enough....my holistic vet thought she was getting enough nutrients; sure hope so.


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## Caty M (Aug 13, 2010)

I have Italian greyhounds with very fast metabolisms. My 10 pound girl eats 1-1.5 pounds of raw meat a day which equals 80-130g protein, depending on the type of meat fed that day.


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## DaViking (Sep 27, 2011)

carbonxxkidd said:


> I am also curious - is there a way to add more protein without adding more of the other stuff? When my dog was eating a cup and a half or two cups per day he was significantly heavier and I would prefer to keep him right where he's at!


Was he eating the same food when he was heavier? Also remember Orion was a puppy pretty much up until recently. Lots of things going on and not easy to evaluate at all.
I still think you should try to add a little more to his daily ration. 400kcal and 24g of proteins is on the light side for a dog with a target weight around 50lb. You could for example try one of the Back To Basics formulas instead of Fromm. They have a 1:1 distribution of energy from protein vs fat. If you feed 1.5 cup of one of those you will be around 57g of protein without raising the total energy drastically. As I understand you that's what you want to avoid? 57g of proteins is in line with AAFCO and NRC recommendations.


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## carbonxxkidd (Oct 16, 2012)

DaViking said:


> Was he eating the same food when he was heavier? Also remember Orion was a puppy pretty much up until recently. Lots of things going on and not easy to evaluate at all.
> I still think you should try to add a little more to his daily ration. 400kcal and 24g of proteins is on the light side for a dog with a target weight around 50lb. You could for example try one of the Back To Basics formulas instead of Fromm. They have a 1:1 distribution of energy from protein vs fat. If you feed 1.5 cup of one of those you will be around 57g of protein without raising the total energy drastically. As I understand you that's what you want to avoid? 57g of proteins is in line with AAFCO and NRC recommendations.


Yep. He's been on adult food since March, we started off at 2 cups, and I cut him back (slowly) to one cup probably in August. It's not so much his energy level I want to keep down, he's pretty mellow as it is, I just don't want him to get fat. I am hesitant to change his food because Fromm is the first one I've found that doesn't cause diarrhea, I'll look into Back to Basics though (I've actually never heard of it). My mom suggested adding some ground beef or something to his food to up the protein level - would something like that work also?


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## DaViking (Sep 27, 2011)

carbonxxkidd said:


> Yep. He's been on adult food since March, we started off at 2 cups, and I cut him back (slowly) to one cup probably in August. It's not so much his energy level I want to keep down, he's pretty mellow as it is, I just don't want him to get fat. I am hesitant to change his food because Fromm is the first one I've found that doesn't cause diarrhea, I'll look into Back to Basics though (I've actually never heard of it). My mom suggested adding some ground beef or something to his food to up the protein level - would something like that work also?


I should have been clearer. I meant the energy fed per day in kcals, not how energetic he is :smile:
Feeding 1.5 cups of B2B will provide all the recommended protein but will only increase the overall energy intake with approximately 200 kcal per day, compared to Fromm Gold. Something to look into if you feel he will become to heavy on the recommended levels of calories.


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## carbonxxkidd (Oct 16, 2012)

DaViking said:


> I should have been clearer. I meant the energy fed per day in kcals, not how energetic he is :smile:
> Feeding 1.5 cups of B2B will provide all the recommended protein but will only increase the overall energy intake with approximately 200 kcal per day, compared to Fromm Gold. Something to look into if you feel he will become to heavy on the recommended levels of calories.


Is a lot of that just the grain-free factor? The only reason I'm not feeding grain-free right now is the price. I know Taste of the Wild is fairly reasonable and there is 32% protein compared to 24% in the Fromm Gold I'm currently feeding...maybe I should try mixing some of that in and see how my boys do on it.


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## monster'sdad (Jul 29, 2012)

Felix said:


> No it isn't! You want fast growth and 'early body mass' so you can get that animal out and slaughtered faster! Converting feed to gain is what it's all about. I wouldn't consider my dog with commercial animals though, we want steady lean growth in pets because they lead longer lives. And it IS true that fatter animals have MORE health problems, can you say diabetes, arthritis, etc?'
> 
> ETA: No one said that their dogs are underweight, but a good weight. Where they used to be al little bit overweight, a decrease in amount of food solves that problem very nicely


Felix give it a rest ok. You are on a tangent now. We are talking about chronically underweight animals and it does not matter what the age is.


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## monster'sdad (Jul 29, 2012)

carbonxxkidd said:


> Is a lot of that just the grain-free factor? The only reason I'm not feeding grain-free right now is the price. I know Taste of the Wild is fairly reasonable and there is 32% protein compared to 24% in the Fromm Gold I'm currently feeding...maybe I should try mixing some of that in and see how my boys do on it.


I would use a traditional kibble. Don't get sucked into GF foods. If you want to feed around the same amount move them to a 30/20. Performance foods are a good option and even though they have grain they are lower in carbohydrate than many grain-free foods.

Were you live you should be able to find a very good 30/20. Some options are Dr. Tim's Pursuit, Red Paw 32, Annamaet Ultra, American Natural Premium, Eukanuba Premium Performance, Precise Endurance, Victor Hi Pro Plus, Exclusive 30/20....


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## Felix (Oct 9, 2012)

monster'sdad said:


> Felix give it a rest ok. You are on a tangent now. We are talking about chronically underweight animals and it does not matter what the age is.


I think you need to re read the thread. Tangent? OK, I'm not going to feed your ego...


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## Felix (Oct 9, 2012)

carbonxxkidd said:


> Is a lot of that just the grain-free factor? The only reason I'm not feeding grain-free right now is the price. I know Taste of the Wild is fairly reasonable and there is 32% protein compared to 24% in the Fromm Gold I'm currently feeding...maybe I should try mixing some of that in and see how my boys do on it.


Fromm also has grain free foods. Unfortunately, some GF foods use potato or other non meat ingredients to bump up the protein. This makes it look like there is extra protein in it, people usually just assume, more protein, more meat. Not the case sometimes. I'd just get him some raw patties, or actual raw meat if you want to bump up the protein. Everything has calories though, so make sure you take that into account.


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## DaViking (Sep 27, 2011)

Felix said:


> Fromm also has grain free foods. Unfortunately, some GF foods use potato or other non meat ingredients to bump up the protein. This makes it look like there is extra protein in it, people usually just assume, more protein, more meat. Not the case sometimes. I'd just get him some raw patties, or actual raw meat if you want to bump up the protein. Everything has calories though, so make sure you take that into account.


Potato flour or potato flakes are cheap'ish bulk ingredients, an alternative to various grains. They are not there to pump up the protein count. Potato protein concentrate is different though. You can stuff the kibble full of potato, make it by far the largest ingredient at no. 1, but it will still barely break into double digits as far as protein is concerned. There is a Canadian brand who have a cpl of formulas who do exactly this. It's basically only potato, chicken meal, fat and blueberries. Their potato protein count is 13% - 16%, chicken protein up to 87%


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## DaViking (Sep 27, 2011)

carbonxxkidd said:


> Is a lot of that just the grain-free factor? The only reason I'm not feeding grain-free right now is the price. I know Taste of the Wild is fairly reasonable and there is 32% protein compared to 24% in the Fromm Gold I'm currently feeding...maybe I should try mixing some of that in and see how my boys do on it.


Grain or grain free isn't that important to me. I mentioned B2B since it provides a nice spread between protein and fat that could work for Orion without upping the calories too much.


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## carbonxxkidd (Oct 16, 2012)

DaViking said:


> Grain or grain free isn't that important to me. I mentioned B2B since it provides a nice spread between protein and fat that could work for Orion without upping the calories too much.


Grain-free isn't really important to me either, my dogs don't have allergies so it's not an issue. Grain-free is just so much more expensive! I will go talk to the people at my local feed store more about this the next time I need to buy a bag of food. I'm sure they can help me find something good in my price range. Thank you!


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