# Changing diet



## deuce22 (Apr 18, 2012)

Hi.

I'm writing this post, so that I can start feeding my dog with the best quality food possible.

I have a 5 year old Staff and up until 2 days ago I had an 11 1/2 year old Rottweiler. We had to have her put to sleep.

Both dogs were very active and on average they had around 4/5 walks per week. I take them up on the mountains that I live near and walk with them for about 40 min.

I walked them both on Saturday, but then she started throwing up. On Sunday we took her to the vets and was told that she had Hemorrhagic GastroEnteritis. All her vital signs were fine, but her blood test came back with elevated signs of white blood cells and we were told that she had an infection.

She went drastically down hill over night and we were told that her Liver and Pancreas were shutting down and her kidneys weren't functioning at all.

Although she has had a great life I still feel that I may have prolonged her life if her diet was better. For the first few years of her life I didn't get concerned to much about what kibble I was feeding her, due to being told to many conflicting things. I tried her on Science plan, Iams and even Bakers. I then started to do some research and she's been eating either James Wellbeloved or Wainwrights.

I then had my Staff when she was 6 and they were both on James Wellbeloved or Wainwrights.

Now, after what has happened I want to make sure that I am feeding my staff with the best food possible. I was thinking of switching to Orijen because the quality is supposed to be one of the highest, but I started to read about raw food.

Can someone please point me in the right direction as to what is the best.

Many thanks.


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## ciaBrysh (Dec 16, 2011)

If you are willing to put the effort into doing the research to begin a raw diet, that is the best diet you can do no doubt =)
A good site to start at would be Dedicated to proper carnivore nutrition - Prey Model Raw Feeding for Dogs & Cats. Many members here (including myself) started there =)

I am sorry to hear about your loss =(


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

i too am sorry to hear about your loss....i am sure you are very sad.

i started feeding raw when i realised that dry foods would always have something in them i did not care for.

i transitioned from dry food to home cooking and then to raw and will never look back.

if you should decide to feed raw, i don't know if your dog will live longer...but i can say with surety that your dog will live better, with more quality of life.


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## Liz (Sep 27, 2010)

CiaBrysh and MagicRe have given you a great link and great info to start. I switched my the 11 year old due to seeing him start to age before my eyes. I have also switched all 6 of my other dogs and whelped two litters onto raw. There is a fantastic change in all of the dogs. My old man is not so old anymore. He is back to being playful and sweet and doesn't move like an old dog. Being that he was switched so late in life at almost 11 I really can't say I have extended his life but I know I have increased the quality of his life. He is energetic, pain free, healthy and happy. There is work involved but as with anything with experience comes ease. I never spend more on feeding my dogs raw than I have on kibble. I thought for a while I was spending more time looking for raw vendors, free meat, meat sales, etc but actually with how much time and research has to go into kibble feeding now a days it is probably equal and I can tell you exactly what my dog is eating and I can adjust for particular needs. Ex: My old boy loves his fowl, and heart meat not so keen on fats so he gets more coconut oil in his diet, when my girls are bred I can feed more heart to provide much needed folic acid and lower calcium intake when necessary. It is very user friendly to feed raw once you get the hang of it. JMHO Wishing you the best with whatever way you decide to go.


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## deuce22 (Apr 18, 2012)

Thanks all for the advice and kind words.

I will definitely research more and can't see me having much of an issue with my staff as he is not to keen on any type of kibble, he seems to eat it out of hunger rather than enjoyment.

Having a better quality of life is my main priority and when he does get near, to his maximum age, hopefully he will not suffer to much due to eating a better quality diet through his life.

Although my Rottie didn't seem to suffer near the end, we have now realised that she didn't seem to like anybody touching her stomach area to hard, so maybe there was an underlying problem. It's difficult because she couldn't tell us if she was in pain and she was a real energetic dog, so there were no signs either.

Thanks again.


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## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

I'm so sorry. It's hard to lose a dog at any age, and even though she had a long life I think that's little consolation. 

Of course I agree with the others that raw is the only way I will ever feed my dogs. One of my dogs in particular has had a miraculous turnaround. The other has lost all his food related allergies, which made him miserable. 

Finding this site has changed their lives (and mine) for sure.

Wainrights has one ingredient that really raised a red flag for me - poultry digest. It doesn't name the poultry. Which means it could very likely have 4-D animals in it (dead, dying, diseased, disabled). 

For that one ingredient, i would not feed it to my dogs.

The Dog Food Project - Ingredients to avoid


> AAFCO: Digest: Material which results from chemical and/or enzymatic hydrolysis of clean and undecomposed animal tissue. The animal tissues used shall be exclusive of hair, horns, teeth, hooves and feathers, except in such trace amounts as might occur unavoidably in good factory practice and shall be suitable for animal feed. .
> 
> A cooked-down broth made from specified, or worse, unspecified parts of specified or unspecified animals (depending on the type of digest used). If the source is unspecified (e.g. "Animal" or "Poultry", the animals used can be obtained from any source, so there is no control over quality or contamination. Any kind of animal can be included: "4-D animals" (dead, diseased, disabled, or dying prior to slaughter), goats, pigs, horses, rats, misc. roadkill, animals euthanized at shelters, restaurant and supermarket refuse and so on.


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## lovemydogsalways (Mar 4, 2012)

I am really sorry to hear about your loss.  If you are willing to go raw then I would definitely do it. I plan to start feeding raw this summer. I can't wait until my dogs are eating a healthy species appropriate diet. Orijen is a good kibble if you choose to stay with kibble.


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## deuce22 (Apr 18, 2012)

Thanks both.

Before I start confusing myself can I confirm that what we are talking about on this site is raw food (meat, fish, bones and offal).

I've just started reading a link on raw food and it brought up something called BARF diet, which also has veg and fruit added.

Thanks.


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## creek817 (Feb 18, 2012)

There is a separate sub forum here for BARF feeders. In this section, we mostly feed prey model raw. Like you said, meat, bones, and organs. And some fish. It has done amazing things for my dog. I hope it does the same for yours! 

Very sorry for your loss :-( do you have any photos of your rottie? We love pictures


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## deuce22 (Apr 18, 2012)

Thanks creek817.

I'll get some pics and post them up.

So when I am reading about raw food it doesn't mean BARF. It's just that when I am looking up things on the net That seems to be coming up as well.

Is the only difference between prey model raw and BARF the addition of fruit and veg.

I watched one breeder on youtube saying that he fed his dogs BARF, but he was cooking the food.

Cheers.


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

deuce22 said:


> Thanks creek817.
> 
> I'll get some pics and post them up.
> 
> ...


it CAN mean barf. which is the addition of dairy, veggies, grains and/or fruit...some of the above or all of the above. 

prey model raw is what this section of the forum is about.

there is a barf section and that involves a different type of raw feeding.

to further confuse you, there is whole prey feeding. that's when you take a goat, throw it into your back yard and let the dogs out. 

what i recommend is to be less confused.....for now. you can always go to a barf style of feeding, once you've completed transition....

there is an awful lot of adapting your dog has to do to get used to eating raw. 

for now, just chicken....no supplements, no organs, no veggies, fruits, grains...just chicken.


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## deuce22 (Apr 18, 2012)

Hi magicre.

ciaBrysh posted a link and I then clicked the getting started tab. Should I start according to that advice over the course of 8 weeks.

Is this a similar transition for people living in the UK?

I've put a couple of imaged of our girl here.

















Thanks.


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## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

deuce22 said:


> Thanks creek817.
> 
> I'll get some pics and post them up.
> 
> ...


BARF is raw - home cooking is home cooking, which is different and I think much more complicated because cooking destroys good things you then have to replace.

Some people do think veggies are very important. Prey Model Raw feeders believe they are unnecessary. There are arguments for both camps, but it is true that there is no minimum daily requirement for carbs in a dogs' diet. They simply don't need it to live and flourish.

Besides, it's so easy just to throw out a piece of chicken and not worrying about which veggies you have to puree.

your dog is gorgeous. And so is the little boy!


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

love that staircase and the dog is so pretty....so is the boy....

how much does your dog weigh? let's start with that?

Skylar, Zack, and Abby on the WEB

here is another site to read.....

in the UK, and i cannot speak for all uk people, there is more of a minced thing going on.....because, depending on where you live, it's very expensive to buy red meats...at least this is my understanding.

if you lived in the balkans, most likely you would feed a barf style of raw.....as is true in many european countries.

i prefer to let the dog transition, as many of these european dogs have been fed raw for longer than a generation or younger than, let's say, your dog.....

and then decide...

but both websites are filled with wonderful information.

fortunately for you, the first few weeks will be chicken.


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## deuce22 (Apr 18, 2012)

That's my Nephew.

She just licked him and he was shocked.


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## deuce22 (Apr 18, 2012)

Hi magicre.

She has always been around 40 kilos. She went down to 37 kilos at the lightest period and as much as 42 kilos at the heaviest.

She was 40.5 kilos on Monday of this week.

She was very energetic, like a little Lamb bouncing around the place.

*"in the UK, and i cannot speak for all uk people, there is more of a minced thing going on"*

Are you saying that we're all a load of mincers, Ha Ha.

I've already got a very good supplier of free range chicken that we buy for ourselves, that is very cost effective. We tend to buy breast and thigh meat, but I'm sure they will sell other parts.

Initially when reading about this diet I wanted to add veg. I'm a bit of a health nut myself and know how good Organic veg is for humans. However, now I realise how different dogs are compared to us, I don't know if they will have any benefit.

I find it really bad that Vets advise people to feed their dogs such crap. When I bought my first dog around 15 years ago I was cooking meat and veg. He told me that I would cause the dog problems because it didn't have enough nutrition.
He said that I should switch to dog food straight away.

At that time there was hardly any info on the net and I had never heard of any other diet to feed dogs, so I took his advice.

The vets in the UK advise Science Plan.


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

then your vets are as bad as ours 

LOL on the mincers. i think it was more because meat is expensive in UK...but minced was less so. or it could be that people were afraid of giving hunks of meat to their beasties...when, in reality, that's the way to feed...

if you can, try to stay away from the breast, as it is the least nutritional part of a chicken. 

stick with quarters, which is the thigh and drumstick. you and your family can eat the breast. 

we tend to think in human terms for our dogs...i am a bit of a health nut myself....and i did feed a barf diet for a while.....it's in the barf section....

i have found that many europeans feed a barf style diet, and i don't have a problem with that, except to say that dogs are not human, they are built differently than we are....and they are not omnivores nor are they herbivores...

so for me, species appropriate includes as much red meat as i can possibly feed....i also give them some supplements....i think because they were over vaccinated and i'm trying to undo the damage caused by that and i have an older dog....so they both get bioprep II....makes me feel better, and i think it's helping them.

they also get human grade fish oil supplements. salmon oil did not agree with them. and they also eat sardines, herring, and mackerel....the fish oil we feed is carlson's.

personally, when i couldn't figure out why my pug was balding, i thought barf was the answer and my balkan friends swear by it, including kefir and raw milk and yoghurt, rice, grains...some of their plates look good enough for me to eat...

but i never really did see much benefit from the veggies. i did, however, see benefit from the seed mix they advised me to feed, until i realised these were oils...and that's what my dog was missing.

so now they get more dietary fat....but we've been feeding this way now for two years.....it took a year for them to fully transition.

much of this is trial and error...and vets , as you have found, are of no help.....although i'm sure there are some raw advocates out there...

we have the same complaints about our vets who lecture us about feeding raw meat and bones and they just don't get it. it's sad, really.

my vet told me i was killing my dogs. now he can't get over how they look and i've got one going on thirteen. 

when you start, start with bony chicken. backs are excellent. watch the stools. feed approximately 1.5% of your dog's ideal weight and go from there. less is better in the beginning.

and if ever you listen to one piece of advice, here it is.

go agonisingly slowly. your dog needs to adapt, rebuild his digestive system to accomodate this new way of eating, strengthen teeth, jaw, muscles.


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## AveryandAudrey (Sep 20, 2010)

So sorry to hear about your rottie. I feed my 3 dogs all prey model raw and I love it. It takes research tho. If you are up to the learning on it, I saw go for it! But Origen is good kibble yes.


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## AveryandAudrey (Sep 20, 2010)

And what is a mincer? lol sorry but I must know!


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## pogo (Aug 28, 2011)

I'm in the UK and raw feeding is a lot less popular over here then in the states, but i feed whole prey as far as possible and don't feed any fruit/veggies etc I know of a lot of places you can order in bulk from if your interested as well


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## Noodlesmadison (Sep 18, 2011)

magicre said:


> ...i also give them some supplements....i think because they were over vaccinated and i'm trying to undo the damage caused by that and i have an older dog....so they both get bioprep II....makes me feel better, and i think it's helping them.


Noodles got Hepatitis from a reaction to vaccinations when she was 5 or 6 (she's 9 now). It was really scary. She sat in a corner shaking harder than anything I've seen before. She has never gotten another vaccination(rabies or other, because we don't know which one caused it and I am not willing to find out!) but I'm sure it's done some type of damage. I am going to look into bioprep II


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

Noodlesmadison said:


> Noodles got Hepatitis from a reaction to vaccinations when she was 5 or 6 (she's 9 now). It was really scary. She sat in a corner shaking harder than anything I've seen before. She has never gotten another vaccination(rabies or other, because we don't know which one caused it and I am not willing to find out!) but I'm sure it's done some type of damage. I am going to look into bioprep II


my dogs haven't had vaccinations in a long time but they were fed kibble up until two years ago...and they are rescues...

Advanced Nutritionals or Optimum Choices-Holistic Resource for People and Pets

bioprep is for dogs. biosuperfood is for humans.


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## deuce22 (Apr 18, 2012)

Hi magicre.

Yes, meat is pretty expensive in the UK, but I will have to do some research and try and find a local wholesale supplier.

For myself and family I try, whenever to buy grass fed, free range organic food, but it is difficult due to the cost. I buy the best quality I can afford.
Is less quality meat going to be counterproductive when feeding my dog or should I be feeding him the same quality as we eat?

I have been using Salmon oil for the dogs for around a year now. I did check with the company and they did say that it was fit for humans.

What do you mean by "they were over vaccinated". Do you not have them injected once a year like the Vet advises?

Thanks for your time, I appreciate the help.

Hi AveryandAudrey.

I enjoy learning new things anyhow, so this will be very enjoyable knowing that it's going to benefit my dog.

This is taken from the online Urban Dictionary. A Mincer is:


A man who is extremely camp. Not necessarily gay, but definitely exhibiting tendencies towards the feminine. Primarily slang used in England.

Hi pogo.

Yes I would really appreciate any info/help you can give me.

If you prefer you can email me direct. [email protected]

Thanks all.


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## sozzle (May 18, 2011)

Hi Deuce and welcome to the forum.
The 'mincing' bit made me laugh too - and I'm originally from UK (Berkshire).

Our boy has been raw fed for 12 months now but when we got him I started on morning kibble (Nutrience) the one we were recommended by greyhound adoption charity as that is the one that is donated to them by the owners of Nutrience, and then in the evening it was K9 Naturals a NZ premade raw with fruit and veges food that was getting a bit too expensive, before that I have no idea what he was eating. When we got him his coat was very dull and now it is very shiny and he is lean and muscular, (admittedly most greyhounds are pretty lean although I have seen a couple of chubby ones).

I didn't know about transitioning dogs when I decided to go full raw so my dog didn't go the 'chicken for a few weeks' route and I just got stuck in trying him on different proteins and he was fine. Not all dogs would cope with that though.

I get quite a few comments on how shiny his coat is and how good he looks and I always say: "that's the raw diet I have him on", but most people don't really want to know any more than that.
Disappointingly today in discussion with my father in law a retired veterinary lecturer, he said that he would rather trust AAFCO to feed his dog as it was 'scientifcally designed' and then wanted to know why I don't feed carbohydrates, so I told him that I didn't believe dogs needed them.
(we are off to UK in June and he will be looking after my dog so I have to adapt his feeding for 4 weeks, but he'll survive on raw chicken morning and dogroll in the evening).

My mother in law is frightened of her dog finding raw chicken bones because they are 'dangerous', so I assured her that Stanley wouldn't leave any bones for her dog to ingest and that anyway raw chicken bones are fine for a dog to eat, but I know she'll never be happy with it.

I hope that once you have 'the knowledge' about PMR and try it for yourself you will see great benefits in your dog and see that is makes sense and also how stunningly simple it is.

Tom Lonsdale book 'Raw Meaty Bones' is a good book worth reading also.
cheers from the bottom of the world
ps. other sites worth a look at:
www.totallyrawdogfood.com
www.rawlearning.com
www.rawfoodvets.com


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## creek817 (Feb 18, 2012)

deuce22 said:


> Hi magicre.
> 
> Yes, meat is pretty expensive in the UK, but I will have to do some research and try and find a local wholesale supplier.
> 
> ...


Supplementing with fish oil will essentially make up for not feeding all grass fed meat. Whatever meat you feed, as long as it is fit for human consumption, will be 56893735372829292616384962892 times better than kibble. That may be a *slight* exaggeration, but that's how I see it!


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## deuce22 (Apr 18, 2012)

Hi sozzle.

Thanks for those links. I was looking at buying Raw meaty bones and another one was called going rawr by Maggie Rhines.

Creek817.

That's good to hear, I will feed him on the best quality I can afford.

Many thanks.


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

i believe we over vaccinate. i did not think so, until lately.

in my state, we vaccinate every three years. i have stopped vaccinating because i have to ask why?

and in my research, behavioural problems and neurological problems and physical problems and certain cancers are now related to over vaccination of animals....

so, i stopped. and i feel my dogs are better for it.

i have them on a product called bioprep II to help clean out their systems from all the vaccinations they've received through out the years....although i am fortunate in that my pug was neglected, so he's only had puppy shots and one set of vaccines.

but my older girl was vaccinated from the time we got her until about 6 years ago...and she hasn't had one since. she is going on 13.

the fish oil, i think, is important. my dogs did not do well on salmon oil, nor do they eat salmon, as i live in the pacific northwest and that salmon is different than what you get....it has a parasite that freezing doesn't necessarily kill.

we try to feed as much grass fed / grass finished product as possible, since many of our food animals are fed a diet of gmo corn/soy and i don't know what else....and soy and corn are not so good. 

we feed emu oil, too....and extra virgin unrefined nutiva coconut oil. 

we feed dietary fat because that is the source of their energy and lustrous skin and fur.

we feed complicated bones, like whole necks to give them a good workout...

but we can't always feed grass fed/ grass finished product. so enters the fish oil.....i use one that has mackerel, sardines and herring in it with E not made from soy.

we take it too, since we cannot always get organic grass fed/ grass finished product for ourselves....

sozzle is right. not every dog needs a long, slow transition. some, like hers, adapt immediately.....mine didn't.  so i can only go from my experience....

i think you ask great questions and your dog will do just fine.


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

so, a mincer is not necessarily gay? would they be considered to be a metrosexual?

had i known, i would not have made that 'joke'.


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## pogo (Aug 28, 2011)

Hey i've sent you an email duck!


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## deuce22 (Apr 18, 2012)

Hi magicre

No. A Mincer is not necessarily Gay (although most tend to be). 

A bit like a metrosexual, but speak and act a bit like a woman. There's a character in the Carry On films that's one.








How do you get around the issue when going on holiday and having to put them in kennels. They need up to date Vaccinations and kennel cough. A few years ago I moved to Dubai and took both dogs with me. They went through quite a few injections.

Maybe I'll pay for someone to look after him at home instead. What are the benefits of these yearly Vaccinations?

Thanks pogo.

I've just looked through a couple and they look great.


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

i totally get it . 

there are places where i live who will either accept non vaccinated dogs who are naturally reared and raw fed.....and there are places who accept titres. 

the other alternative and this is a growing business here....is to have someone take care of your dogs in your home.

if you were to move to another country for a time, i doubt there is any way around it and then you would have to vaccinate.

i don't see any benefits to yearly vaccinations. by the very definition, to be vaccinated is to allow the body to build antibodies to a disease. if the dog really required a vaccine every year, then i have to question why they are not immune after the first one plus a booster.

where i live, vaccines are given every three years along with rabies. i have chosen to stop because i really do believe it is more harmful than beneficial.

i live in a civilised country where we have eradicated many diseases. somehow, i have to question why that does not apply to dogs, after several generations of receiving vaccinations.


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