# Dogs devocalized



## DaViking (Sep 27, 2011)

This is terrible. Dogs devocalized.
Owners ‘Devocalizing’ Dogs To Curtail Pets From Barking « CBS DC


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## kevin bradley (Aug 9, 2009)

sickening. Nothing humans do surprises me any longer though.

We can find a way to brutalize anything with a heartbeat.


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## Maxy24 (Mar 5, 2011)

While I would never be okay doing it to my own dog, I am sort of on the fence about it in certain situations. For example, I don't know if I consider it worse than putting a shock collar on a dog for barking, I consider shock collars, particularly when used for an emotionally charged behavior like barking, cruel. So I'm not sure which is worse (assuming no complications in surgery). Also, if someone has been told they need to silence their dog or get evicted, and is thus left with having to silence their dog quickly, find a new place to live (unlikely since they'll probably need to rent again and would run into the same issue), or bringing the dog to the shelter, I don't think debarking would be the worst choice. I mean we routinely spay dogs and that is a more invasive surgery than debarking. I don't think it has a lot of common long term affects (or not that I've heard about).


What I don't agree with is buying a dog with the intention of debarking it (don't get a dog is you can't stand any barking) or debarking a dog without trying to solve the underlying issue first. I don't agree with it being used as a way to ignore the dog's needs (dogs barking out of boredom or under-stimulation) I would be irate if someone got a vocal breed, like a Sheltie or something, and then got angry about it's barking and debarked it, you should have done your homework and gotten a quieter breed!


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## meggels (May 30, 2010)

Honestly, I looked into this for Abbie when I was moving into my apartment complex. I was very worried about her barking, upsetting neighbors, and then us being put into a tough situation. 

I didn't though, instead I worked with my friend who is a great trainer, she's been going more places (becoming less scared of people which makes her less inclined to bark). I've even checked in with my neighbors, the ones that live above me and across from me (I'm in the basement) and they all say she's really not an issue, that she barks for a minute and then stops after a few "woof's" lol, and it's typically just when she hears the door to the building.


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## Kassandra (Jun 6, 2012)

I personally think it is disgusting.. I don't want to hear a lot of people talk, honestly. But can I take out their voice-box? NO! Suck it up. It's the same thing. You can teach them not to bark at certain things like people coming to the door, walking in front of your house or whatever else gets them going. Taking away their ability to talk is ridiculous. It's the same thing as taking away a humans voice-box IMO. 

Some people are probably going to say that they don't express themselves by barking and that they use body language. Humans also use body language but we certainly still express ourselves by talking. 

This is so repulsive.


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## xchairity_casex (Oct 8, 2011)

i would much MUCH rather use a shock collar then de-bark a dog!
ANY surgery is DANGEROUS in itself, your dog could have complications from the anistesia, could have infection after the surgery causeing more damage, or death not to mention your dogs way of comunicating with you or others is deminished.

what does useing a shock collar do when used properly?
your dog barks, you say "enough" your dog barks again you give a slight zap while saying "enough" your dog stops barking you call over and reward your dog, within a few weeks your dog isnt barking non stop anymore, no painful surgery, no truamatizing experience at the vets office, no heal time and possibly becoming turned off from eating hard or dry foods.

it may sound like a easy, simple surgery but think about the pain involved, the heal time, the pain in trying to eat or even drink for that matter.

ive seen dogs trained useing shock collars PROPERLY and it only takes a very slight shock to get most dogs attention, most of the time with proper work and training with these collars a person observing a dog being trained with a collar would have no idea when a shock had even been deliverd! most people imagine a dog flinching or crying out and flailing around or stopping what they are doing to tuck there tails and cower, well yeh that can happen if you do it WRONG but doing it correctly the dog is running around the shock is deliverd and all that happens is...the dog turns around to look and see or come right back tail up, mouth open head up slightly alert but relaxed.


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## Maxy24 (Mar 5, 2011)

That's if the shock collar is simply being used to get the dog's attention. I feel like if all that is needed is a "slight zap" (annoying but not painful) then you could have very easily fixed the barking without the collar, there are lots of ways to get a dog's attention. If the collar is actually being used to punish the barking it must hurt to some degree, why else would the dog want to avoid the shock and thus change their behavior? If you only use slight zaps you run the risk of your dog getting used to the sensation and barking through it, forcing you to increase the level of shock. Many trainers who use such devices would argue that the correct way to use a shock collar involves using a very strong shock so that only a few repetitions are needed to completely eliminate the behavior, thus no risk of the dog getting used to the shock and having to continually use it, increasing the stim as you go.
I always tend to think of these things through my own dog which is what may be influencing my view. He has a serious barking issue rooted in fear aggression. He goes nuts when dogs and some people go by the house. I think suppressing that through the use of a shock collar would be more abusive than getting him debarked, even though I still would never consider doing such a thing. The stress, anxiety, and terror involved in trying to keep your mouth shut out of fear of a shock when everything in your head is telling you you must bark to protect yourself from the terrifying people/dogs going by must be enormous (and if you ever got to see my dog react you'd understand that he is truly terrified). THAT would be silencing your dog's voice, you are making him too afraid to use it. Dogs who are debarked still bark (and growl and yelp), it's just not loud. For all we know they have no idea they aren't barking. If the barking is not rooted in fear then I could see how you might not see suppression as that bad. It wouldn't be causing nearly as much stress as it is in a fear aggressive dog silenced through punishment who still wants, more than anything, to bark.

Thankfully debarking and shock collars are not the only two options available to me (or most other people), so I opt to use neither. 

And it's not like I'm "pro debarking" by any means. If I knew someone who got their dog debarked because they found their dog's barking annoying I would be just as disgusted as anyone else. But if it's "get rid of the bark NOW or you're getting evicted" then I think there are worse things that could happen.

BUT I would like to know more about the healing process. If it is very long, often complicated, or especially painful I could change my mind.


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## kelii (Aug 18, 2012)

I think it should be used as a very last resort.


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## GoingPostal (Sep 5, 2011)

Maxy24 said:


> BUT I would like to know more about the healing process. If it is very long, often complicated, or especially painful I could change my mind.


The lady I know that had her sheltie debarked had him back the next day and supposedly he was fine. She decided against debarking the other dog though now. I think in her case it was a s***** thing to do but she's a pretty s***** owner. Some exercise and training probably would have worked just as well.


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## kevin bradley (Aug 9, 2009)

I know some humans I'd like to devocalize 

Is the procedure approved for humans?


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## InkedMarie (Sep 9, 2011)

I tend to agree with Maxxy. If an owner has the choice of taking her dog to a shelter, move or debark their dog, I think debarking may be right, in a case like this. Certainly not an easy decision. I've had bark breeds: three shelties, our current pbgv. I know they bark, some have been easier to curb the barking. Our worst was a sheltie who was 11 yrs of age and was a horrible barker.


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## Celt (Dec 27, 2010)

I don't see debarking as abusive (if done correctly by a vet). It should be the last option of action though. Most dogs can be "retrained" to not bark constantly but there are some for whom barking is a near complusive/obsessive behavior or as been stated a "release" for "extreme" emotions. In those occassions, which would be better medicating (with all those "lovely" side effects) the dog for life or a surgery that allows the behavior while limiting the likelihood of public nuisance problems. Would I do it? Maybe, depending on the situation and the dog.


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## xchairity_casex (Oct 8, 2011)

IMO on useing shock collars, it should not simply "be used" if you understand my meaning, a shock collar (IMO) is a tool to help along with training and perhapes a lifestyle change, such as the dog you were explaining who was terrified. the person who owns a dog like that needs to figure out a lifestyle change for the dog to help them while useing slight corrections to alter the dogs want to bark.

so lets say the dog is terrified of life confedence boosting training should be used on a daily basis as well as desensitization on a daily basis i would also say that a calm relaxed happy go lucky dog be brought in (considering the dog is not aggressive towards other dogs) to help the nervous dog feel safer while doing all of those work on shock collar training along with posative reinforcment, get your dogs focus in the yard then introduce something like a new person some distance away when the dog breaks focus to bark give a slight zap to help regain dogs attention and go back to focus work/ obedience work.

ive seen many types of shock collar training, most of it i donot like as many use the shock collar as punishment while i think useing it as an attention getter is perfectly fine a shock collar used as punishment is NOT cool and htats hwen you see the issues like dogs become aggressive from it becoming nervous balls of fur shaking in fear.

too many people take the easy way out and IMO doing a surgery on a dog is taking the easy way out. i dont care how long the surgery takes or how easy it is, its stress on the body, you can die of an infection from a slight car scratch, so can you imagine the risk from ANY surgery?


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## Sprocket (Oct 4, 2011)

I think its the lazy way out and I feel horrible for any dog that is subject to such an owner. If you don't like your dog barking, then you need to figure out WHY its barking and fix it, train it, redirect their barking.... Not take it to the vet to alter it. If you have tried to fix it and it didn't' work, then you need to try harder. Also, do not get a dog breed that is KNOWN to be a barker and then debark it...

I find it funny that a few people I know claim to raise their dogs "naturally" but debark them. HOW is that not hypocritical? 

I would never debark an animal because I believe that its not fair to the dog. A dog is meant to bark, to communicate. Barking can get on my nerves but there is always a non invasive fix for it IMO.

Frankly, I don't like bark collars either. Our new dog Jody has 2 small white scars on her neck from a bark collar.


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## CorgiPaws (Mar 31, 2009)

Sprocket said:


> I find it funny that a few people I know claim to raise their dogs "naturally" but debark them.


What?! That's the stupidest thing I've ever heard.

I'd rather a dog be debarked than dumped at a shelter. I'd rather a dog be rehomed than debarked. So, with that I just don't think it should need to be an option. I think it's the lazy way out, and completely cruel.

If your tolerance or living situation can't handle much barking, then get a breed that is LIKELY to suit that need. To go get a terrier or herding breed and then complain of barking makes you an idiot. Dogs bark. People talk. It's a part of life. 

I think people that get vocal breeds and then debark them are pretty awful. You don't just start cutting body parts out for convenience sake. I wonder if these kind of people cut their kids hands off for getting into things?


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## Kibblelady (Jul 13, 2012)

I have never seen a debarked dog that could not still bark. They normally still make sound it is just greatly reduced or sounds hoarse. I have known many dogs years ago that had this done and they were unphased by it. I do not see the "cruelty" element guys, sorry. My old vet that used to do it would knock the dog out and simply stretch the cords so they function less efficiently hence making the sound much lower. I have never, ever heard of a dog's voice box being removed. This is not cruel nor is it normally even painful and a dog does not have an emotional attachment to the volume of their bark. What about ear cropping? That is painful and takes time to heal which is itchy and uncomfortable. Spaying and neutering is painful, but done for a reason. Most people who debark do it for a reason not for aesthetics or for the hell of it. Unfortunately in my state the practice was outlawed because law enforcement noticed some dogs in drug dens debarked and saw it as something they wanted to stop, too bad those dogs were not debarked by a veterinarian but usually by a rod shoved down the throat while the dog is fully awake, now that's cruel.


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## meggels (May 30, 2010)

Sprocket said:


> I think its the lazy way out and I feel horrible for any dog that is subject to such an owner. If you don't like your dog barking, then you need to figure out WHY its barking and fix it, train it, redirect their barking.... Not take it to the vet to alter it. If you have tried to fix it and it didn't' work, then you need to try harder. Also, do not get a dog breed that is KNOWN to be a barker and then debark it...
> 
> I find it funny that a few people I know claim to raise their dogs "naturally" but debark them. HOW is that not hypocritical?
> 
> ...


I have heard Murph "bark" maybe...3 times in the 2.5 years I've had him haha. It's WONDERFUL, and just another reason why he's a great apartment dog. Though, not all frenchies are like this, some are more vocal, but even then, they sound like cute little gremlins, so I don't think I'd mind that much


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## Sprocket (Oct 4, 2011)

FWIW - Another recent thread on this.


http://dogfoodchat.com/forum/general-dog-discussion/16281-debarking-yay-nay.html


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## Sprocket (Oct 4, 2011)

meggels said:


> I have heard Murph "bark" maybe...3 times in the 2.5 years I've had him haha. It's WONDERFUL, and just another reason why he's a great apartment dog. Though, not all frenchies are like this, some are more vocal, but even then, they sound like cute little gremlins, so I don't think I'd mind that much


Gunner doesn't bark much but he does do this crazy scary "woof" and a creepy deep growl. It cracks me up cause I know hes just a big goober. 

My dogs only bark when its necessary. When they are alerted or playing.


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## naturalfeddogs (Jan 6, 2011)

I just can't imagine my dogs not being able to "talk" when they have something to say. JMO.


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## Tracy (Aug 11, 2012)

naturalfeddogs said:


> I just can't imagine my dogs not being able to "talk" when they have something to say. JMO.


Totally agree.
I always thought dogs had different pitches when they bark depending on what they're trying to say. How does that work if they've been debarked?

I can tell by a bark if my dog is scared or worried or very excited or wanting to go pee or has heard a noise or there's someone at the door. Not something I would ever want them denied of. Expressing yourself whether you're a dog or a person is very important I think.


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