# Dog Vomit, Me Worry



## thegoodstuff

Nicky was fine after his pm meal Saturday but shortly after his am meal today, he vomited twice about about 10 minutes apart and again 30-45 minutes later. Same meal he always eats, half a can of Trader Joe's lamb n rice and half an apple, chopped. Also the usual dose of MSM. Before the meal he always gets a fish oil gel and a chondroitin/glucosamine tab in a lump of creme cheese, no changes there. He seemed ok afterwards and had a couple of ice cubes, gums looked ok, a normal poop after breakfast and we slept most of the day. 12 hours later I gave him a small portion of oatmeal (no rice in the house). That wasnt appealing so I put a _small_ amount of sugar free pancake syrup in it. That wasnt doin it for him and I remembered the Dietz and Watson roasted chicken breast I had so I boiled a couple slices and mixed it in, then he ate. 3 hours later he vomited pretty much the whole meal. No bile or blood just some foam, good refill on his gums. In the morning vomitus was also the remains of a rawhide strip I gave him a few hours before the morning meal. He only gets 1 or 2 a week and this morning's wasnt the first from that bag. Didnt notice any lethargy after waking but he seems a little lethargic now. Tonight's urine looks a little concentrated. Definite trip to the doc in the morning but Im just a little touchy about sick dogs and some insight here would be nice. Thanks.


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## xellil

Well, first you need to see if your rawhide was made in China. They use all kinds of horrible chemicals.

Second, you should probably forego the rawhide altogether.



> Rawhide can be very dangerous for your dog, not only with the problem of choking, as poor Springer experienced, but if a larger piece is swallowed, it can cause an intestinal obstruction, which might well necessitate surgery. Also, unlike most foods and treats that you give your dog, rawhide takes a long time to be digested. This undigested rawhide can turn sour in your dog’s stomach or intestines and can cause your dog to vomit or experience diarrhea. Another source of concern is that these rawhide bones can often contain salmonella bacteria, posing a potential health problem to anyone in the house.


Is Rawhide Dangerous For Dogs? | Animal Lovers Forum!

In addition to the blockage issue, they are usually bleached and soaked in lye. Not normally what you want your dog to eat.

i don't know why he is throwing up, but if he continues and keeps acting lethargic you might suspect a problem from the rawhide.


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## thegoodstuff

yeah, he needs rawhide now like he needs a bowl of chocolate covered raisins :frown: Same Boots & Barkley rawhide for years.


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## Hugh

Just purchased Boots & Barkley Retriever Sticks (Chicken Flavor) from Target a few days ago for the first time. Didn't notice "Product of China" on the package (I know bad daddy). Anyway, gave my lab 1 stick which she quickly put down. 10 minutes later she gave me the treat back in the form of vomit. I though she prob had a bad belly from something else and didn't want to throw away the rawhide yet. 2 days later the exact same routine unfolded. 10 minutes after eating 1 stick it came back up. Needless to say the sticks are in the can. Just providing a warning to all about the brand and seeing if anyone else had a similar scenario with their dog.


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## xellil

Dogs are dying right and left from chicken jerky treats made in China. If all you end up with is vomiting, you are lucky. And even MORE scary, alot of the meat from China is labelled as US. You need to make sure it says SOURCED in the USA, not just MADE in the USA.

Personally, I wouldn't risk giving my dog any of it. Kidney disease and death is permanent and those treats don't have do-overs with a dead dog.



> Blogger Mollie Morrissette has been following the chicken jerky developments for more than a year on her website, Poisoned Pets. She said that the issue has reached a sort of tipping point in the last month, with more and more pet owners speaking up about sick dogs.
> 
> "I get letters every day from broken-hearted pet parents -- people who had to put down their beloved family dog or five month-old puppy," she said. "They all fed their dogs chicken jerky."
> 
> One issue frustrating pet owners, Morrissette said, is that many of these dog treat packages boast that they are made in the U.S., though the fine print on the package often reveals that the chicken actually comes from China, where a cultural preference for dark meat makes for cheap white meat.
> Sarge.jpg
> 
> These "country of origin" claims are made possible by laws that say that once an ingredient is "substantially" altered in a given country, the resulting food can be considered a product of that country. These alterations can include cooking, mixing or otherwise reprocessing the ingredients in some way.
> 
> Just as oranges from Brazil can be turned into Canadian orange juice, chicken jerky from China can be reprocessed and repackaged in the U.S. to become a U.S. product. This can trick consumers into a false sense of security about the safety of their pet's food, Morrissette said.
> 
> Higginbotham said that the brand of jerky she bought for Bandit claimed to be "Proudly manufactured by an American company." Kinard-Friedman believed the same thing about the jerky she fed to Millie.
> 
> Morrissette said that pet owners feel helpless as they wait for some sort of justice on behalf of their pet, and she criticized the FDA for what she saw as a lack of urgency in investigating the illnesses.
> 
> "A lot of these pet parents are just wringing their hands, hoping the FDA will find some sort of answer," she said. "If this was [potentially contaminated] baby formula, we would have had the answer when it started five years ago. It would all get pulled off the shelves out of caution as soon as anyone suspected it might be contaminated."


Dogs Fall Ill As Owners, Vets and Lawmakers Blame Treats from China


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## BeagleCountry

Target refuses to reveal the source of the ingredients or country of manufacture for their Boots & Barkley treats and kibble. The products could be made in one country this week and another next week. Their kibble gets a 1 star rating on several of the dog food review sites due to the poor quality, potentially harmful chemicals and species inappropriate ingredients. 

I hope Nicky is feeling much better now.

Below is the link to a discussion of Target and the Boots & Barkley products in the Dry and Canned Food forum.
http://dogfoodchat.com/forum/dry-canned-dog-food/5105-warning-target-boots-barkley-dog-food.html


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## thegoodstuff

Its been almost 3 weeks since Nicky started vomiting. He is feeling much better now, thank you, but it had nothing to do with the rawhide. 

On Monday morning of the first week, he hadnt kept a meal down since Saturday night. To the vet straight away. He was lethargic and his gums were tacky. He was dehydrated. He got some subq fluids, an anti nausea shot, flagyl and we went home. No better the next day so we went back for xrays. The 3 films only showed a bloated stomach - mostly air and also food that hadn't moved along. No obvious foreign body, but xrays go right through rawhide and it wont show up. Vet concerned about the potential for stomach torsion so straight from there to the 24 hour vet referral and emergency center (dogs and cats only). He wasnt going anywhere until he showed some improvement. I live 10 minutes away so I ran home and grabbed the quilt off the bed and brought it back. Hmm, now what was I gonna use... An ultrasound didnt reveal anything remarkable in his gut. IVs, drugs, blood tests. His liver enzymes weren't just elevated, they were in the stratosphere. Now we go from gastritis or blockage to toxins, pancreatitis, hepatitis or everybody's favorite - lepotosporosis. It can be transmitted from dogs to humans and can be fatal to both. Yikes! I stayed there Tuesday until they said "Go home!" that night. They brought him out to see me before I left - he was a hurtin pup. Wednesday morning I was back when "visiting hours" started. They put me in an exam room with him. He was in bad shape. He barely wagged a couple of times when he saw me. A tech brought the blanket and I put it on the linoleum floor and we sat there waiting for the doc. 

Then the balancing act started. He still had a ways to go with treatment. I was hemorrhaging money and I was gonna bleed out soon. So we agreed he would stay there -"youre paid up until midnight" for the rest of the day and I would come back at midnight, take home and be back at my vet when they opened the next day where things were much less a case of robbery...uh I mean cheaper. For example, the first lepto titer was $180 at the ER. Both of them together were $150 at my vet. The plan was they would pump him full of IV fluids all day long and just before midnight take out the IV and put a football's worth of subq fluids on board to keep him hydrated until morning. During the day, among other things, he would get the second ultrasound. 

Leptosporosis is tested for by getting one blood sample and in a week another is drawn and sent to the lab in Louisiana (dont ask me). If its negative its party time. If the first one is positive then it is compared to the second one to see if its going up or going down. Or staying the same. His elevated liver enzymes were still a mystery so he was put on metronidazol (Flagyl) to kill bacteria that can back up from the small intestine into the gall bladder and liver.

We didnt get out of there until after 2 am. I was supposed to take precautions with him at home. Lepto is transmitted via urine. They gave me some gloves to wear and he couldnt sleep in the bed. "How am I gonna keep him from getting in the bed?" Put him in another room. Im sorry but that wouldve severely f_____ with his head. I grabbed one of the dog beds and put in the bedroom off to the side of the bed for that few hours before going back to my vet. Poor guy, he thought he did something wrong. It was hard on both of us. 

He spent the next day getting IV fluids. I noticed a difference right away when I picked him up, much better; he had been down a few quarts and they topped him off. He was on a bland diet and only small, frequent feedings. He doesnt do rice so pasta and lean ground turkey was the menu 4 or 5 times every 24 hours. He had lost weight, and he was keeping the food down. He went through 2 lbs of pasta that weekend . Then he was running around, Mr Happy, as usual. You'd never know some of his liver enzymes were 15 and 20 times normal. Apparently, its common for dogs to be able to do that. Depending on the cause, it can take a month or two for the enzyme levels to come down to normal in which time you keep your fingers crossed there hasnt any been any permanent damage. 
_Finally_ the leptosporosis results came back: *NEGATIVE *







Yeah_!!_


Im phasing in his regular wet food a little at a time now. He vomited twice (uh oh) but that was because I had given him too much food. Another liver test in 2 weeks and if not normal yet, another a month from then. And in spite of the liver problems, I'll be staying out of the rawhide isle at the pet supply place. 






Monday
1st trip to my vet 
------1 Cerenia injection
------1 round of sub q fluids
-----20 metronidazole

Tuesday and Wednesday
2nd trip to my vet
------3 x-rays
ER
------1 Vetscreen CBC w/ T4
------2 days inten$ive care 
------2 ultrasounds
------3 liters IV fluids
------2 ICU/ER panels

Thursday
1 ----trip back to my vet for another day of IV fluids
2-----Vetscreen CBC w/ T4
1 ----lepto titer
14 ---500mg amoxacillin
14 ---250mg metronidazol

the next week
1 -----trip back to my vet for liver tests
30 ----Denamarin
1 -----lepto titer
14 ----500mg amoxacillin
20 ----250mg metronidazol
1 ------IRS tax refund smoked
2-------happy campers


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## xellil

I am so glad he is better. however, i wouldn't rule out the rawhide, especially rawhide from unknown origin. Much of it is processed with arsenic. Arsenic can cause liver problems. And no telling what else it was processed with. 
I don't believe a healthy dog has a drastic liver failure for no reason.

I hope and pray he is all back to normal ASAP. It is great that you took him in to the ER even though it's going to cost you a fortune. That's a big whew.


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## thegoodstuff

A big <whew> is right! And it has already cost a fortune - they wont even _start_ treatment until you pay half of the estimate. I cant even imagine what it would be like for someone to come screeching to a stop at the front door and come running in with a dog that had serious trauma and and the first thing they hear is "Cash, check or charge?"

I wouldnt use the word 'failure', it was still doing its job. No one uttered that word the whole time. More like his liver was PO'ed, like hornets when you kick their nest. :lol:

If you have a rawhide addict in the house, these two rawhide places seemed to be terribly concerned with explaining their processing policies...


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## xellil

When i took Snorkels in, they made me pay their high estimate plus a "buffer" of $500. They were taking no chances they might end up doing something for free. I was grateful they were there, but I do believe they padded the bill. They took x-rays the first ER had already taken and sent with me. They charged for 12 hours of oxygen when she was only on oxygen for four. Etc etc. They did their best to make it to the high estimate.

But the absolute worst was when I was in Indiana and took a dog in because I thought he had swallowed a popsicle stick. They would not even take x-rays until I agreed to pay $100 to send the results to some oncologist in New York to see if the dog had stomach cancer. I did find a new ER place after that.

And I agree - if it is an immediate life/death emergency are they going to insist on a credit card before they try to save a dog? 

it may be a matter of terminology, but in my opinion when a liver is not working correctly, it is failing. Boots & Barkley is not known for its quality. Maybe it's something totally different - but why would that happen? You have to suspect something your dog has eaten. 

I would not feed any rawhides. Even the good rawhides (if there are such things) can cause intestinal blockage. Interesting sites, though - I don't really believe the one that says the hides are just washed repeatedly in water because I don't believe you can strip them with water. They are processed BEFORE that to remove the rawhide from the hide. 

Here's what I think is a good article on rawhides. Boots & Barkley is a low quality rawhide, almost certainly coming from China.

Finding the Right Rawhide Chew For Your Dog - Whole Dog Journal Article



> “Made in the USA”
> The freshness factor alone is a good reason to try to buy American-made rawhide chews for your dog. But it’s also true that it’s less likely that illegal or toxic chemicals are used in the products’ manufacturing if the products are made in the United States. Lead, arsenic, mercury, chromium salts, formaldehyde, and other toxic chemicals have been detected in low-quality hides.
> 
> Read that label carefully, by the way. The pet product manufacturers are aware that many pet owners see “Made in China” or other indications of foreign manufacture as a red flag, and they are ingenious at finding ways to make their products look as if they were domestically produced. I’ve seen products with American flags on the label that were made overseas. Even the phrases like “made in America” or “made from American beef” are abused; sometimes, the fine print will reveal that what’s meant is Mexico, or South or Central America. There is a difference!


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## magicre

is it possible he had a belly ache? i know i'm over simplifying, but it wouldn't be the first time we had to take our dogs into the ER because g'd forbid they start doing their thang during normal business hours...and it usually turned out to be the most expensive gas pocket or belly ache.

did they ever find the cause?

i am, on the other hand, really happy to see everything is okay now.


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## Khan

magicre said:


> is it possible he had a belly ache? i know i'm over simplifying, but it wouldn't be the first time we had to take our dogs into the ER because g'd forbid they start doing their thang during normal business hours...and it usually turned out to be the most expensive gas pocket or belly ache.


That was Little Miss Shelby last month! 
$150.00 Bucks for sneaking into the box of chicken thighs mom was thawing on the garage floor!! :doh::doh:


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## thegoodstuff

xellil said:


> When i took Snorkels in, they made me pay their high estimate plus a "buffer" of $500. They were taking no chances they might end up doing something for free. I was grateful they were there, but I do believe they padded the bill. They took x-rays the first ER had already taken and sent with me. They charged for 12 hours of oxygen when she was only on oxygen for four. Etc etc. They did their best to make it to the high estimate.
> 
> But the absolute worst was when I was in Indiana and took a dog in because I thought he had swallowed a popsicle stick. They would not even take x-rays until I agreed to pay $100 to send the results to some oncologist in New York to see if the dog had stomach cancer. I did find a new ER place after that.
> 
> And I agree - if it is an immediate life/death emergency are they going to insist on a credit card before they try to save a dog?
> 
> it may be a matter of terminology, but in my opinion when a liver is not working correctly, it is failing. Boots & Barkley is not known for its quality. Maybe it's something totally different - but why would that happen? You have to suspect something your dog has eaten.
> 
> I would not feed any rawhides. Even the good rawhides (if there are such things) can cause intestinal blockage. Interesting sites, though - I don't really believe the one that says the hides are just washed repeatedly in water because I don't believe you can strip them with water. They are processed BEFORE that to remove the rawhide from the hide.
> 
> Here's what I think is a good article on rawhides. Boots & Barkley is a low quality rawhide, almost certainly coming from China.
> 
> Finding the Right Rawhide Chew For Your Dog - Whole Dog Journal Article



Dont keep us in suspense, did he swallow the popsicle stck? I swallowed a popsicle stick once, it wasnt pretty :lol:

Good article on rawhide. I wince when I think about some of that 'junk rolled up in one sheet of rawhide' I have my dogs have gotten over the years when I didnt have the chips. I had a strict policy, only one rawhide chip (or strip, they were big) per week. Wholesome Hides looks like the best, they dont sell it retail, but from a dealer. Of those listed in the article, only Cherrybrook came up for online chip sales. The label on the Boots and Barkley bag I have says "product of Mexico".

As to a cause, thats still up in the air. Below is the list of possibilities the ER was working with. So far, Im with toxin, gastroenteritis or biliary obstruction - I think thats the one that causes the bacteria from the intestine to get to the liver, hence the amoxicillin. Or the whole thing could have been put into motion by the rawhide. I got a chuckle out of the reference: "dietary indiscretion".















Khan said:


> That was Little Miss Shelby last month!
> $150.00 Bucks for sneaking into the box of chicken thighs mom was thawing on the garage floor!! :doh::doh:


A had a friend who's german shepard stood up to the counter and ate a whole platter of fried chicken, no problem.


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## xellil

thegoodstuff said:


> Dont keep us in suspense, did he swallow the popsicle stck? I swallowed a popsicle stick once, it wasnt pretty :lol:


No, we found it under the couch later. I still get mad at myself for that - we should have checked the floor better! What happened when YOU ate a popsicle stick?


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## thegoodstuff

I chased it with some silverware. 










Just kidding :biggrin:


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## magicre

i would also ditch the apple, the cream cheese, the oatmeal, the sugar free pancake syrup, the deli chicken

and you already know about the rawhide....

keep him on his food and his stomach should settle down nicely.

and the next time, if there is one, just give him chicken broth, so his stomach can have a chance to calm down...

i'm betting he just has a belly ache.


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## thegoodstuff

magicre said:


> i would also ditch the apple, the cream cheese, the oatmeal, the sugar free pancake syrup, the deli chicken
> 
> and you already know about the rawhide....
> 
> keep him on his food and his stomach should settle down nicely.
> 
> and the next time, if there is one, just give him chicken broth, so his stomach can have a chance to calm down...
> 
> i'm betting he just has a belly ache.


I didnt make this stuff up :smile: The apple was originally on the advice of a friend who breeds rottweilers, I like it because it fills him up since I reduced his intake to keep his weight where it should be. It was part of the winning combination that finally got him to eat when he didnt eat for almost 2 weeks after Java was gone. Apples and oatmeal are on this "people food for dogs" list. The the oatmeal and the tiny amount of syrup was a one-time desperation tactic to get him to eat, so was the chicken. Ive used cream cheese to get pills down since Java was a puppy, just enough to hide the payload. As the story goes, when he showed up in dog paradise and heard that he could eat anything he wanted, as much as he wanted, he stepped up to the buffet tables and asked for a big bowl of cream cheese. After he started wolfing it down, he was heard muttering "What, no pits?" Now that Nicky's 'small frequent meals' thing is over, Ive phased the pasta out and the regular wet food and green beans back in, 3 times a day instead of twice. 

With not being able to keep food down, the dehydration and elevated liver values, it was probably more than the garden variety belly ache.


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## xellil

your story is actually very familiar to me. For over a year after I got Snorkels, she was at the ER vet 3-4 times a month for similar issues. Always some vague digestive stuff that made her very, very ill over and over again. Lots of tests, extremely high $$. She lived her life lethargic, vomiting, dehydrated. If she had one good day a week it was a good week.

I threw everything but the kitchen sink at her, on the advice of vets and others. I ended up here in desperation. I was actually looking for recipes to cook her food. 

All the things you add - apples, syrup, cream cheese, etc. etc. aren't exactly what I gave her because she has a serious constipation issue and I was giving her pumpkin, green beans, olive oil, stool softener, laxatives, etc. It all worked for a short time and then didn't. 

This might be a one time thing for you. It might be the rawhide or some other food. It also might be that all the "people food" he is eating isn't sitting well and is causing problems. 

I believe simpler is better. It's why I went totally to raw food after I found this site. Snorkels has not had a digestion-related ER visit since we started raw, almost a year ago. It turns out it was the food, and then all the stuff I fed her to fix the problems the dry food was causing caused a myriad of problems to boot.

I'm not saying you should go to raw food - everyone makes their own decisions on that. I am saying maybe you should try cutting out all the extras. Apples have alot of sugar. Oatmeal is very high carbohydrate which dogs don't need. Cream cheese is highly processed - I put pills in a little ball of ground meat. Make sure your green beans are fresh and have no salt. Etc.

Make sure your dog food has limited ingredients. Trader Joe's canned food has an ingredient that is concerning. One of the top five ingredients is soy, and soy is a common allergen. Also, when deadly ingredients like melamine start making dogs sick it almost always turns up in wet food. you should find out where Trader Joe's sources their ingredients from. Like maybe China. What I can find is that it is "A product of the USA" which means nothing about where the ingredients come from.


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## thegoodstuff

xellil said:


> All the things you add - apples, syrup, cream cheese, etc. etc. aren't exactly what I gave her because she has a serious constipation issue and I was giving her pumpkin, green beans, olive oil, stool softener, laxatives, etc. It all worked for a short time and then didn't.
> 
> This might be a one time thing for you. It might be the rawhide or some other food. It also might be that all the "people food" he is eating isn't sitting well and is causing problems.










He does not get a lot of 'people food'. From the 'people food for dogs' list above: _Oatmeal is a good source of soluble fibre. This can be beneficial for some older dogs that may have trouble maintaining bowel regularity. Oatmeal is also an alternative source of grain for dogs that are allergic to wheat. It can be fed in conjunction with probiotics to enhance their function. Keep in mind oatmeal should always be fed cooked and plain with no sugar or flavoring._ Like I said, the oatmeal (and syrup) was a one-time thing to get him to eat. _Apples are wonderful crunchy treats for your dog. Apples with the skin on are full of plant chemicals (phytonutrients) that are thought to be protective against some types of cancer in humans. They are a source of vitamins A and C and fiber._ Anyway, he's been getting the apple since July so they werent the problem. Addiction Dog Food looks like quality stuff, several of the recipes contain apples.




xellil said:


> I'm not saying you should go to raw food - everyone makes their own decisions on that. I am saying maybe you should try cutting out all the extras. Apples have alot of sugar. Oatmeal is very high carbohydrate which dogs don't need. Cream cheese is highly processed - I put pills in a little ball of ground meat. Make sure your green beans are fresh and have no salt. Etc.


 I really mean _just enough_ cream cheese to hide the pill(s). This is enough for a glucosamine/chondroitin 1500/1200 and a 1000mg fish oil concentrate.










When Nicky went on the hunger strike last summer I figured it would be a good time to start him on raw. But between the cost and the extra freezer space I dont have, I bagged it. 





xellil said:


> Make sure your dog food has limited ingredients. Trader Joe's canned food has an ingredient that is concerning. One of the top five ingredients is soy, and soy is a common allergen. Also, when deadly ingredients like melamine start making dogs sick it almost always turns up in wet food. you should find out where Trader Joe's sources their ingredients from. Like maybe China. What I can find is that it is "A product of the USA" which means nothing about where the ingredients come from.


Interesting note on TSP _The most inexpensive meat substitutes are made from soybeans and called either textured soy protein (TSP) or textured vegetable protein (TVP). Textured soy contains all the nutrients found in whole soybeans, except for fat; because it's low in fat and high in fiber, it's a great choice for anyone concerned with lowering their weight or their blood glucose._

I raised Java from 8 weeks. He was on Science Diet for his first year, then Purina One to age 8, (what did I know, he was my first dog) then Kirkland Dry lamb and rice  and TJ's to past age 14. Fish oil (and thyrozine for hypothyroidism) via the CCDS (cream cheese delivery system)  from age 1 on. So as rotgut as that sounds to some, 14 years old for a 95lb dog speaks for itself. Nicky has been on Kirkland, TJ's and CCDS from 6 months. He'll be 8 in August; people are shocked when I tell them "no, he's not a puppy."

I did put the canned green beans away and went out and got fresh ones. I chopped up half of them and put them in a container in the fridge. he likes em so much, it answers my question about what healthy treats to switch to and $1.99/lb is a whole lot better than $44/lb like some have mentioned in the treats thread. :shocked: The extent of my desire to cook for _myself_ doesnt go past microwaving or boiling water. We come in from a walk and he marches right up to where the jar of Alpo Variety Snaps is (I think the ingredients include steel wool and pencil erasers) and waits to catch the pop fly. No fuss,no muss. I would take a bullet for him, so I guess I can live with chopping, storing and walking to the fridge instead.


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## magicre

how's he doing?


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## thegoodstuff

Good, last day of the amoxicillin and another liver test next week.


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## thegoodstuff

YEAH! Nicky's liver values are back to normal







"The 4th test pays for all." he said, wiping the sweat from his brow.

ALT - was 1708, now 80
ALP - was 2638, now 150
Tbili- was 3, now 0.2
AST - 37


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