# Newbie here with questions



## Charlie1986777 (Nov 4, 2010)

:smile:Hello all-I have been lurking for a while but am now active! I am a new/learning pet owner and would like some advice on food / feeding routine. I recently adopted a "poodle mix" from my local shelter on September 29th. Her name is Effy and due to me being in a difficult living situation the moment (will be resolved soon!) she is staying with a friend of mine. Anyways, when I adopted her she was 3 months old, weighed 9 lbs and looked like a shaggy little bear. She is a cutie and I love her to death. Being a new dog owner and really not knowing the evils of certain food I had been feeding her Iams puppy food. She actually loved it and seemed to be doing great, growing, good solid stool, no digestive issues that I could tell. Except her coat is rather dull. I am not sure if it was the Iams or just that she loves dirt!!! Anyways, she is now 14 lbs and vet says she will mature to 20-25 lbs. What is the best food I can be feeding her? Please do not flame me for the Iams. I am learning and wanting to what is best for her which is why I am here.
Thanks for any advice.

PS I will post a picture of her soon so you all can help me decide what she really is. thanks again. :smile:


----------



## DaneMama (Jun 27, 2008)

Hello and welcome! Glad you joined and happy to have you here!


----------



## BabyHusky (Jul 21, 2008)

Hi Charlie, congrats on your adoption! She sounds adorable. Well, since you mentioned that you've been lurking around for a while now, I'm sure you have a general idea of what kibbles are best. You seem to already know that Iams is horrible so good start. 

We have multiple threads on the best dog kibble. There is actually a sticky that lists some of the top brands. I'll refrain from listing them here again since those "which kibble is best" lists are all over this forum. I, personally, feed my pets Orijen.


----------



## Unosmom (May 3, 2009)

This is a very helpful site:

Dog Food Reviews | Dog Food Ratings


----------



## RCTRIPLEFRESH5 (Feb 11, 2010)

the best kibbles are those with no grains, and a high concentration of meats. most of the best kibbles are brands that are not well marketed.

some of the best kibbles are
orijen
acana
evo...for now
canidae grain free...this is what i feed.
totw wetlands or high prairie....highly reccomended because its the cheapest on the list.
go! endurance
wellness core


----------



## coolstorybro (Nov 3, 2010)

RCTRIPLEFRESH5 said:


> the best kibbles are those with no grains, and a high concentration of meats. most of the best kibbles are brands that are not well marketed.
> 
> some of the best kibbles are
> orijen
> ...


are grains bad for dogs? i am feeding my pup blue bluffalo.


----------



## Unosmom (May 3, 2009)

its kind of a controversial topic because a lot of the people (including myself) believe that the majority of the food should be made of meat and a lot of companies use grains to bulk up the nutrient content in order to reduce the cost of production, often at the expense of dogs health. Not all grains are created equal, some are more allergenic then others like corn and wheat. 

But just because the food is grain free, doesent mean its necessarily better, you have to look at protein levels and how much meat is in the food vs. potato (or tapioca or pea starch, etc). If the food is grain free but has more potatoes then meat, I'd rather feed something with grains that has higher protein %. 

But since you have a large breed puppy, you need to be careful with cal. /phos. levels and a lot of grain free kibble have elevated levels which make it unsuitable for pups. 
There are some balanced grain free puppy foods like Orijen (probably others, but I'm not too familiar, you'll have to check individual formula's guaranteed analysis to be sure that its safe)


----------



## buddy97 (Mar 29, 2010)

Unosmom said:


> But since you have a large breed puppy, you need to be careful with cal. /phos. levels and a lot of grain free kibble have elevated levels which make it unsuitable for pups.
> )


i think she said the dog was expected to be 20-25 lbs at maturity. if thats right i wouldnt be concerned with Ca levels.


----------



## Unosmom (May 3, 2009)

I must have missed that part, thanks.

Your dog is fine on grain free ALS then. 

Good luck.


----------



## Charlie1986777 (Nov 4, 2010)

I was thinking of trying taste of the wild as it seems to fit in my price range. Should I exclusively feed.that or what is he best way to mix and vary feeding?


----------



## chocolatelabguy (Nov 17, 2009)

TOTW offers 4 varieties, so you can certainly alternate among those 4.


----------



## cast71 (Sep 16, 2010)

@chocolatelabguy: That's what I do. I know 2 formulas have lower protein. They also have a single protein. I like the idea of having a single protein formula, in rotation every other bag. 


@Charlie1986777: Since your puppy is not a large breed, you can feed any grain free food. Do some research and see whats the best you can afford. My dog definitely does better on grain free.

@coolstorybro: Since your puppy is a large breed, there are only a couple of grain free formulas with the right calcium and phosphorous levels. They are orijen LBP and TOTW sierra mountain formula. If you could afford orijen LBP, that would be best.


----------



## saltydogs (Oct 31, 2010)

Unosmom said:


> its kind of a controversial topic because a lot of the people (including myself) believe that the majority of the food should be made of meat and a lot of companies use grains to bulk up the nutrient content in order to reduce the cost of production, often at the expense of dogs health. Not all grains are created equal, some are more allergenic then others like corn and wheat.
> 
> But just because the food is grain free, doesent mean its necessarily better, you have to look at protein levels and how much meat is in the food vs. potato (or tapioca or pea starch, etc). If the food is grain free but has more potatoes then meat, I'd rather feed something with grains that has higher protein %.
> 
> ...


Your factually incorrect on corn but partially right on wheat, although meats are far more likely to cause an allergic reaction than even wheat.

Show me a peer reviewed study on corn allergies. You wont be able to find one that says corn is more likely to cause a reaction that rice. Trust me I know you cant.

You are also wrong on how much protein grains can add. The highest normally used grain, ground corn, is only 8% protein whereas chicken meal is 70% protein.

You don't have to be a math whiz to see that if a food has 30% protein not much can come from corn.

Corn gluten meal maybe but not ground corn.


----------



## Unosmom (May 3, 2009)

> What are the most common food allergens?
> 
> Clinical tests of IgE allergies in 313 cats and dogs at CRVC revealed the top food allergens to be: corn, wheat, soy, yeast, potato and beet. These common allergens are foods these patients should avoid during a 90-day food elimination trial. We suspect that food additives, colorings, and artificial preservatives also cause hypersensitivity. Dogs and cats can develop a food intolerance at an early age: from the maternal antibodies, when their immune system is depressed, following gastrointestinal illness, antigen overload (including vaccinations), or secondary to a parasite infection


Food intolerance (food allergies) in dogs and cats



> According to Dr. John Syme, a holistic veterinarian who preaches that food intolerance, allergies, celiac disease, and even epilepsy are all related to certain grains in pet foods:
> “The most serious food intolerances are those to the gluten grains (wheat, barley, and rye), casein (dairy products), soy and corn, with the first three being the most common… Gluten, dairy products, soy and corn are doing an incredible amount of harm to a phenomenal number of people and animals”.


Cornophobia, Demon Corn, Is Corn In Pet Food Really All That Bad? Holistic Pet Food Blog – Is YOUR Pet Food Safe?


While I agree that the dog can be allergic to chicken and beef, but grains are as much of a culprit as any protein source. Fish is a relatively low allergen food and I think a grain free, fish based diet is the best option. But the only conclusive way to determine an allergy or intolerance would be to do a trial period and and start off with a very bland diet of only one protein and one carb/starch source, then introduce novel sources to see if they trigger a reaction. But based on the feedback from hundreds of pet owners that switched their animals from grain inclusive to grain free (even when they stayed with same protein source) and their pets miraculously recovered from chronic allergies cannot be a coincidence. 


Testimonials on taste of the wild site:

JONATHAN; LUTHERVILLE, MD
...I switched to your product. (My dog's) health has improved literally 100%. His ears are always clean and pain-free. He has not had any seizures either. I never guessed there would be any correlation, but he has been on this diet for at least the last five months. I am so very thankful that my dog's health has improved. You get what you pay for. Your product has made a difference.

TIM; ATTLEBORO, MA
We just wanted to write to you and express our excitement and gratitude for such a wonderful product. Our 5 year old Westie was on a dry prescription diet (allergen-free) to help with the many grain and food allergies that he has, but it only seemed to mask the problem. He's been on the Pacific Stream formula for about 6 weeks now and his life has changed! He not only looks more healthy, but we can see it in his attitude. His coat is shiny white, his tongue is a bright pink and he has a sparkle in his eye! And his energy level has increased tremendously. We noticed the change even after the first week. He no longer has the urge to scratch and bite at his legs and belly. That's as much a relief to him as it is to us! Thanks again for a great product--well done!!!


KARA; TERRE HAUTE, IN
Our toy fox terrier may be five years old, but she acts like a puppy after feeding her TOTW for two months. She had ear, skin and allergy problems before starting the Pacific Stream Canine formula. All of those conditions are gone now. I even recommended your products to our
vet... Thanks so much for making an awesome variety of pet foods at a price most can afford.

JEAN, ST. ALBANS VT
Product(s) I am currently feeding my pet: Wetlands Canine Formula with Roasted Fowl

My purebred German Shepherd Dog recently had an episode which involved red (new) blood coming out vs. any kind of stool. Long story short, my vet discovered a highly- elevated eosinophil level, indicative of an allergy (his level was: 2,071 with normal ref. level being 0-1,200). I began the anticipated lengthy chore of pinpointing the allergy in his diet. I began with eliminating corn and got instant relief of his constant bottom of paw licking and nipping. So, I thought I'd go one step further by going "grain-free." Researched many products and purchased a small bag of your Wetlands Canine Formula with Roasted Fowl because I knew he had no problem with consuming fowl, namely chicken. Anyway, my hat's off to you big time. He not only totally devours it, for the 1st time in his 2 yr. life devouring anything I gave him. I feel so super good about serving it to him. You know, that warm-hearted feeling when your best friend is happy! So, I will continue to buy and feed it and am also interested in your other formulas that I've seen on this site! Any chance of coupons with multiple proofs of purchase or anything like that? Thank you so very much!



CAROL, ALLENDALE MI
I wanted to let you know about my two year old Scottish Terrier, Sandy. Sandy developed severe digestive problems at the age of 9 months. Over the course of the last year, she has had multiple tests, medications, etc. She has seen two vets at significant cost. The only recommendation they had was to take her to Michigan State University for more tests. I came across an internet article and website, "Dr. Jay," about grain intolerances in dogs. She matched all the symptoms. I found your dog food at my local pet store and decided to try it as a last resort. She has been symptom free for over three months now. My vet was so impressed that she has been recommending your food to patients with allergy and digestive disorders. So far, you food has corrected the problems in all five patients.


----------



## saltydogs (Oct 31, 2010)

*Peer-Reviewed Studies??*

Do you know what one is?


----------



## tippmindy (Nov 6, 2010)

*feeding issues*

Hi Charlie, I just joined today myself, after overlooking the site for a few weeks...I've been having issues with my 4 month old Tzu who was eating very well, now.....her nose is up at whatever I bring home..from Blue Buffalo and Merrick, to Purina Pro and Eukanuba..even the home made food is not a hit anymore.....and like yours..her coat does not seem very shiny to me...yet she looks healthy and is very playful. It's hard to find the right food when you have a finicky eater not to mention costly..but I would do without if I could find what she would eat on a daily basis..I wish you the best of luck in your search...as mentioned there are many wonderful brands out there to choose from now...if we can just get ours to eat them...lol:tongue:


----------



## coolstorybro (Nov 3, 2010)

cast71 said:


> @chocolatelabguy: That's what I do. I know 2 formulas have lower protein. They also have a single protein. I like the idea of having a single protein formula, in rotation every other bag.
> 
> 
> @Charlie1986777: Since your puppy is not a large breed, you can feed any grain free food. Do some research and see whats the best you can afford. My dog definitely does better on grain free.
> ...


do you prefer grain in dog foods or no grain? my pup is a labrador/mix. right now he is on blue bluffalo chicken and brown rice, but since im on a low budget, i will be trying chicken soup for the dog lovers soul puppy food. how is that brand? also i want to trying raw feeding once a week. mostly raw chicken breast from costco.


----------



## saltydogs (Oct 31, 2010)

coolstorybro said:


> do you prefer grain in dog foods or no grain? my pup is a labrador/mix. right now he is on blue bluffalo chicken and brown rice, but since im on a low budget, i will be trying chicken soup for the dog lovers soul puppy food. how is that brand? also i want to trying raw feeding once a week. mostly raw chicken breast from costco.


Buy the Kirkland brand kibble from Costco if your budget is sensitive. It is a bargain and just as good as foods costing 25 - 50% more.

As for raw, don't feed muscle meat alone. It is far cheaper to buy 50lbs of chicken necks, backs or bone-in thighs instead.


----------



## RawFedDogs (Jun 16, 2008)

saltydogs said:


> Your factually incorrect on corn but partially right on wheat, although meats are far more likely to cause an allergic reaction than even wheat.


Where do you get that information? A carnivore allergic to meat is kind of like a cow being alergic to grass, don't you think?



> Show me a peer reviewed study on corn allergies. You wont be able to find one that says corn is more likely to cause a reaction that rice. Trust me I know you cant.


Why don't you show one about rice being more allergentic than corn?



> You are also wrong on how much protein grains can add. The highest normally used grain, ground corn, is only 8% protein whereas chicken meal is 70% protein.


But if you use grain fractions, you can get a lot of protein that way. I question chicken meal being 70% protein.



> You don't have to be a math whiz to see that if a food has 30% protein not much can come from corn. Corn gluten meal maybe but not ground corn.


There are a lot of kibbles that have corn glutten and corn glutten meal.


----------



## coolstorybro (Nov 3, 2010)

saltydogs said:


> Buy the Kirkland brand kibble from Costco if your budget is sensitive. It is a bargain and just as good as foods costing 25 - 50% more.
> 
> As for raw, don't feed muscle meat alone. It is far cheaper to buy 50lbs of chicken necks, backs or bone-in thighs instead.


where can i buy these? online stores? pet stores? thanks.


----------



## saltydogs (Oct 31, 2010)

RawFedDogs said:


> Where do you get that information? A carnivore allergic to meat is kind of like a cow being alergic to grass, don't you think?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Yes there are many foods that use grain gluten meals and I would never feed them. I have never recommended a food unless the grains are whole ground grains, with a preference to corn and rice. Corn is better for more active or competing dogs and I like it better because less is used and its better as far as insulin spikes go. My intact males have always done better on a food that had whole ground corn rather than rice.

You can question the protein content of Chicken Meal all you want but 70% is the mid-range, it all depends on the grade, especially the fat level. Think about it is a dry product. Even cheaper chicken by product meals are 65 -70% crude protein.

As for allergies, it is in fact animal proteins that are responsible for the vast majority of confirmed allergy cases, and still confirmed allergy cases are only 10% dietary, the rest being contact allergies of some sort. Cornell study indicates that rice and corn cause about 1% each of dietary allergies (1% each of 10%).

The real evidence is that diet related allergies are very rare and 90% are from animal protein. That is why the use of novel proteins like venison, catfish, menhaden, duck are used. Novel only means the dog has not yet been exposed to it.

You are right it is counterintuitive, but its the truth.

So when corn is 8% protein, rice 6% approx and chicken meal 65-75% protein, you can see whole ground grains cannot make up that much of total protein in a 30/20 food.


----------



## saltydogs (Oct 31, 2010)

coolstorybro said:


> where can i buy these? online stores? pet stores? thanks.


Call your local butcher, Costco, supermarket or restaurant supply house and order chicken necks by the box. Defrost them completely before using. 

They usually run about 25 - 50 cents lb. Backs are good too, might be a bit cheaper.


----------



## coolstorybro (Nov 3, 2010)

saltydogs said:


> Call your local butcher, Costco, supermarket or restaurant supply house and order chicken necks by the box. Defrost them completely before using.
> 
> They usually run about 25 - 50 cents lb. Backs are good too, might be a bit cheaper.


oh i forgot the most important part. should i feed him raw 3 times a day if i choose to feed raw? also how many pounds a day should i feed? thanks.


----------



## RawFedDogs (Jun 16, 2008)

coolstorybro said:


> oh i forgot the most important part. should i feed him raw 3 times a day if i choose to feed raw? also how many pounds a day should i feed? thanks.


Check out my web page linked in my sig. It will answer a lot of your questions about feeding raw.


----------



## coolstorybro (Nov 3, 2010)

RawFedDogs said:


> Check out my web page linked in my sig. It will answer a lot of your questions about feeding raw.


just saw it, and its wonderful! thank u so much!


----------



## RawFedDogs (Jun 16, 2008)

saltydogs said:


> You can question the protein content of Chicken Meal all you want but 70% is the mid-range, it all depends on the grade, especially the fat level. Think about it is a dry product. Even cheaper chicken by product meals are 65 -70% crude protein.


I do question it because the only sources I can find that claim that much protein in chicken meal are the kibble companies that use chicken meal as one of their ingredients. Again, SD, you need to find sources of information that isn't marketing hype from dog food companies.



> As for allergies, it is in fact animal proteins that are responsible for the vast majority of confirmed allergy cases, and still confirmed allergy cases are only 10% dietary, the rest being contact allergies of some sort. Cornell study indicates that rice and corn cause about 1% each of dietary allergies (1% each of 10%).


I don't buy that information either. I have seen too many dogs that switched from kibble to prey model raw diets that had their allergy problems disappear. FAR FAR FAR more than 10%. More like 90%. That would indicate that those are food borne allergies.



> The real evidence is that diet related allergies are very rare and 90% are from animal protein. That is why the use of novel proteins like venison, catfish, menhaden, duck are used. Novel only means the dog has not yet been exposed to it.


We have had WAY too many people on this board and other boards that I belong to that think their dog is allergic to chicken, or beef, or pork or other meats be able to feed those protein sources raw with no allergy symptoms. This sounds like more marketing material to me.



> So when corn is 8% protein, rice 6% approx and chicken meal 65-75% protein, you can see whole ground grains cannot make up that much of total protein in a 30/20 food.


Again, I can't find anything that doesn't come from a dog food company that makes that claim about the high protein percentages in meals. Contrary to what the marketing claims are, chicken meal contains very little meat. It's mostly bone and connective tissue from the chicken carcass after the human usable meat has been removed.


----------



## Caty M (Aug 13, 2010)

Saltydogs, why do you think the only good foods contain grains? My dog is fed a raw diet with no carbohydrates and he has SO much energy and is very healthy.. I took him on a five km run and he wasn't remotely tired after and continued to run and run around the backyard for another hour.

My dog's breeder does competitive flyball and agility with her shetland sheepdogs and cattledogs. She feeds a grain free kibble.. and her dogs obviously have a TON of energy. Why do you feel an active dog needs grains (especially corn)?


----------



## DaneMama (Jun 27, 2008)

I think a lot of dogs are allergic to COOKED animal proteins. Which makes sense because they aren't supposed to eat cooked meats...they are designed to eat raw proteins.


----------



## SamWu1 (Oct 15, 2010)

bishopthesheltie said:


> Saltydogs, why do you think the only good foods contain grains? My dog is fed a raw diet with no carbohydrates and he has SO much energy and is very healthy.. I took him on a five km run and he wasn't remotely tired after and continued to run and run around the backyard for another hour.
> 
> My dog's breeder does competitive flyball and agility with her shetland sheepdogs and cattledogs. She feeds a grain free kibble.. and her dogs obviously have a TON of energy. Why do you feel an active dog needs grains (especially corn)?


Perhaps some folks just believe that carbs are necessary in a dog's diet. While puppies just coming off a bitch's milk may need some because mother's milk is 12% carbs or a lactating bitch who needs around three times the turnover of blood glucose to produce milk.

Carbs are present in practically all foods but I think the level in grains are excessive for a dog's consumption. Just my 2 cents.


----------



## sassymaxmom (Dec 7, 2008)

I found a site listing some nutrients in meals and such that are meant to go into animal feeds. Chicken meal isn't on this list but lamb and fish are. Rendered meats are lower in fat than whole meats so higher in protein by dry weight.
Lamb Meal

Suspect your dogs do well on corn as it is higher in fat than rice. Dogs need more fat than they generally get in kibble.

Also suspect dogs do better without grains due to intolerance rather than allergy. Two different things completely, aren't they? And sure dogs do better on different diets, they are individuals.


----------



## cast71 (Sep 16, 2010)

@coolstorybro: I like grainfree foods better. Chicken soup is a good food. If you go with it, make sure its the large breed puppy formula. Same goes if you try wellness. If you want to try grainfree, the only 2 I know of for a LBP, are origen large breed puppy and taste of the wild sierra mountain formula. Since cost sounds like an issue, TOTW is about $40 a bag. Roughly the same price as chicken soup. If you do use TOTW, only use the sierra mountain formula. The calcium and phosphorous levels, are to high in the other foirmulas. If you are going to feed raw and kibble, make sure you only feed raw 1 day and kibble another. Do not feed raw and kibble the same day. It will upset his stomach.


----------



## saltydogs (Oct 31, 2010)

RawFedDogs said:


> I do question it because the only sources I can find that claim that much protein in chicken meal are the kibble companies that use chicken meal as one of their ingredients. Again, SD, you need to find sources of information that isn't marketing hype from dog food companies.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



With all due respect, if you don't know anything about these particular topics perhaps you shouldn't be so outspoken.

You should read some actual scientific journals rather than quote Steve Brown & Tom Lonsdale.

Let me say that your comment that chicken meal contains very little meat shows what an idiot your are. There are at least 5 grades of chicken meal and the more expensive ones are almost all meat and skin.

You need to bone up on facts and stop parading around like an expert.


----------



## luvMyBRT (Mar 8, 2010)

saltydogs said:


> Let me say that your comment that chicken meal contains very little meat shows what an idiot your are.


I don't know about you guys...but I am getting REALLY tired of this poster and their outright bashing of others.


----------



## Caty M (Aug 13, 2010)

Still haven't answered my question, Salty ..

And yes, me too. There is a proper way to debate without resorting to immature name calling... especially for a so called medical doctor.

I am sure there ARE different grades of chicken meal, but there is no way without actually seeing the facility to tell what grade it may be in a particular food. I would say the 'average' chicken meal in a run of the mill food is NOT a top quality meal like would be in Orijen, let's say. Either way, an equal DRY weight of real chicken is preferable to meal...

Like what is in Ziwipeak. There are no meals (at least in the varieties I have seen for sale.. not many here in Canada).. these are the ingredients for the Venison formula:

Ingredients: Venison meat, liver, tripe, heart and kidney, chicory inulin, green-lipped mussel, fish oil, lecithin, kelp, vitamins and minerals, parsley, naturally preserved with mixed tocopherols, additives: vitamin D3, vitamin E, copper (copper proteinate)

40% protein, 31% fat, 21% carbs. Now THAT is a good dry food.


----------



## coolstorybro (Nov 3, 2010)

cast71 said:


> @coolstorybro: I like grainfree foods better. Chicken soup is a good food. If you go with it, make sure its the large breed puppy formula. Same goes if you try wellness. If you want to try grainfree, the only 2 I know of for a LBP, are origen large breed puppy and taste of the wild sierra mountain formula. Since cost sounds like an issue, TOTW is about $40 a bag. Roughly the same price as chicken soup. If you do use TOTW, only use the sierra mountain formula. The calcium and phosphorous levels, are to high in the other foirmulas. If you are going to feed raw and kibble, make sure you only feed raw 1 day and kibble another. Do not feed raw and kibble the same day. It will upset his stomach.


thanks! but what is difference with grain and grain free? is it bad for pups?


----------



## Caty M (Aug 13, 2010)

Grain is just a filler that is largely unusable with dogs and would be best replaced with more meat. Grain free foods usually have a higher meat and animal protein concentration.

Fillers also commonly cause allergies in dogs, especially corn, wheat, and soy.


----------



## coolstorybro (Nov 3, 2010)

bishopthesheltie said:


> Grain is just a filler that is largely unusable with dogs and would be best replaced with more meat. Grain free foods usually have a higher meat and animal protein concentration.
> 
> Fillers also commonly cause allergies in dogs, especially corn, wheat, and soy.


thanks. so if the bag says 'no wheat, no corn, no say', it is grain free?


----------



## cast71 (Sep 16, 2010)

Grain free is free of grains like wheat, corn, rice, oatmeal, barley. Grain free formulas usually have higher fat and lower carbohydrates as well. Its not bad for puppies, but there are not alot of formulas that are good for LBP.


----------

