# My turn to vent



## whiteleo (Sep 7, 2008)

I have to say I love this forum! But when new people come here and post questions and prices that they pay for things for raw a few of the mods make you feel that if you aren't paying less than .99lb your paying too much.

I'd like to take this back to the days when the more you could spend on a quality kibble the better, and it was "good on ya" for doing the right thing for your dog. Now it seems that if you spend too much on raw food your an idiot. 
I won't buy cheap meat that is processed or full of hormones and antibiotics,
and if someone wants to spend their own hard earned money on their dogs then let them, the comment about the tripe on another thread got me thinking, " is it really any of our business what people spend on their dogs and if they want to spend that money then let them".


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## Jodysmom (Jan 9, 2010)

whiteleo said:


> I have to say I love this forum! But when new people come here and post questions and prices that they pay for things for raw a few of the mods make you feel that if you aren't paying less than .99lb your paying too much.
> 
> I'd like to take this back to the days when the more you could spend on a quality kibble the better, and it was "good on ya" for doing the right thing for your dog. Now it seems that if you spend too much on raw food your an idiot.
> I won't buy cheap meat that is processed or full of hormones and antibiotics,
> and if someone wants to spend their own hard earned money on their dogs then let them, the comment about the tripe on another thread got me thinking, " is it really any of our business what people spend on their dogs and if they want to spend that money then let them".


I love this website too! The people are wonderful and so encouraging. Although, I have felt embarassed or ashamed to say that I pay over .99cents a lb. too.


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

let me first say....this website feels like home to me. for the very first time, i have found a place that doesn't tell me i'm killing my dog and is very supportive and kind of like family.

i think it's great that people can get such prices for their dogs, especially when they are feeding the larger dogs or their connections are that great.

maybe i'm overthinking, but i thought that raw model i am feeding meant that if possible, include as many types of animals, as well as different parts and as many as i could find.

i think it's great that people can get their dog food for 70 cents or less....per pound on average

OR

i think i must be doing something wrong.


OR

wow. do I live in an expensive part of the country.


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## Mia (Oct 4, 2010)

I am sorry if that offended you about the tripe. I just couldn't believe my eyes when I found out. I pay 2.75 cents a lb! I know tripe is extremely healthy.

My apologizes. If I was closer I would for sure pick you guys up some


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## CorgiPaws (Mar 31, 2009)

whiteleo said:


> I have to say I love this forum! But when new people come here and post questions and prices that they pay for things for raw a few of the mods make you feel that if you aren't paying less than .99lb your paying too much.


I know darn good and well this is directed at me. 
And honestly, aside from paying nearly $3/lb for tripe, I've NEVER commented that someone was paying way too much. In fact, all I ever stated about the tripe was that now way could* I *do that. 




whiteleo said:


> Now it seems that if you spend too much on raw food your an idiot.


I think you're being overly sensitive... no one has ever told another member they're wasting their money on good RMBs. Tripe is a bit of a controversy, and to each their own on that. If I could afford all fresh, local stuff, I would. 
What I find annoying, is those who CAN making those of us who CANT feel like what we're doing is not good enough. I think it's great that you can do that for your dogs. I personally won't spend money on tripe because I did for about 4 months and saw absolutely no difference whatsoever, so I took it out as it was the most expensive, and by taking it out, I could put that money into more variety. 




whiteleo said:


> the comment about the tripe on another thread got me thinking, " is it really any of our business what people spend on their dogs and if they want to spend that money then let them".


At what point did I tell the person not to spend their money?
Never. 
I said that there's no way I would spend that much.
And you're absolutely right, what people spend their money on is none of anyone elses business, but let's remember here, this is a PUBLIC forum. By posting it, you make it other people's business.


I think that one of the reasons the "deal hunters" here post their findings is to show how affordable raw really can be. Unfortunately, the prices of pre made raw diets have created this misconception that if you feed any kind of raw, you're paying an arm and a leg. I don't think that anyone thinks any more or less of any other member based on what they spend per pound. I sure as heck know I won't. If I could spend $5/lb on all organic, local chicken, I would.... but I feed almost 5lbs of meat per day. I can not afford it. It's great that you can. Someday, when my husband is done with school, hopefully I can, too. 
But please do not degrade the members of the forum who can't spend what you do.


ETA: I spend nearly $2/ lb on some things.....


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## spookychick13 (Jan 26, 2010)

I don't care who spends how much on what, but I admit I am happy to find a good deal.

The farmer's market near by will sell me grass fed beef hearts at the end of the day for a good price, along with whatever else she might have. Is it still pretty pricy? Yes. But let me tell you, those beef hearts are gorgeous and purple and don't have big chunks of that nasty hard fat like the ones I get from the co-op.

The beef ribs that I get from the co op are cheap too, but they have to be soaked in water because they are kosher.

Sometimes it's worth it to pay a few extra bucks, to me at least. Heck, it's still way cheaper than kibble and I am happy to spoil my boys, they look great.

My freaking bird's pellets (Harrison's) are almost 40 bucks for 5lbs!


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## DaneMama (Jun 27, 2008)

Personally I'm happy to know that there are people who can spend more and get better, more natural meats for their dogs...and maybe a tad jealous. If I could afford all natural meats I most certainly would. I only say that people can feed raw for less than $1 per pound because most people can't afford the more expensive meats. While they are better than the cheap meats, the cheap meats are better than kibble. I don't assume that everyone can spend over $2 per pound on meats because I think that alone would turn a lot of people away based just on cost. So I do make a point at letting newbies know that they CAN feed raw very inexpensively. It's up to them to decide if they can afford the more expensive meats. 

I do try and feed as much wild meat as I can! Nothing can beat wild venison!


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## JayJayisme (Aug 2, 2009)

I think there are several issues to consider when the discussion of meat prices comes up.

1. Some people straight-up ask in their post, "Is this a good deal?" Well, if someone asks that question, I'm going to generally respond with something like, "This is what I pay for the same thing." Or, "I never pay more than xx/lb for that." I'm not going to say, "That's not a good deal", or "Don't buy it." I couldn't care less if someone pays $8.00/lb to feed their dog RMBs, as long as they are fine with that too.

2. Meat prices vary wildly with geographical location. Just because I can buy pork ribs for .89/lb. doesn't mean everyone can. Conversely, I'm sure they can be had even cheaper in other areas. I try to always make a reference to my geographical location in posts that discuss pricing because I know it's pointless for some people in some areas to try to find the same things for similar pricing. Here in Southern California we have tons of ethnic markets, which are often the source of the best meat deals. But not everyone has access to ethnic markets, and even those that do in some areas won't necessarily find the prices competitive. For instance, there is a large Chinese market near me that almost never has prices on chicken or pork low enough for me to bother with. But they do often have things I can't find elsewhere so if I really want a package of duck wings, or pork spleen, this is where I go. Not everything around here can be found at a good price though, or even at all. I have never, ever seen chicken backs sold anywhere in Southern California, except for split backs that are attached to chicken quarters. And forget about chicken wings. Ever since buffalo wings became popular, these command a premium price. When I was a kid the markets couldn't give them away and now they are sold at a premium.

I also have a house in the mountains in Northern California. It's very rural and nothing in the nearest town is cheap. When I go up there and have to buy meat for the dogs (and for me), I know I will be paying more than I do here in L.A. Location and competition are everything when it comes to price and those who are outside of areas where there is a lot of competition for business are probably destined to pay more for RMBs. But then again, you would probably pay more for kibble to, if you can even find the really good stuff.

One other thing. I've looking into co-ops around here and, frankly, there is little there for me. I can buy almost everything they are offering for less money, and without buying in bulk. There are a few exceptions, but not many. But the way I shop takes effort and time, something that not everyone has. The co-op around here is probably a good compromise between effort and price but since I have the time to seek out the best deals, it doesn't offer a lot in my case. As they say, your mileage may vary. :wink:

3. One of the biggest PERCEIVED problems with the PMR/RMB diet by those who haven't tried it, is the cost. People automatically assume that feeding their dogs meat is going the cost "way more" than even the best kibble. Because of this, I think one of the reasons some people here get somewhat vocal about what they consider to be a good deal or not, is because they don't want someone to shy away from this diet option simply because of the perceived high cost. It's important to beat it into the heads of some people that this diet can actually be CHEAPER than kibble by far, if you buy right. But if you're buying all your meat for 2 or 3 dollars a pound, then throw your hands up in disgust because the whole thing costs too much, the dog is the one who ultimately pays the price. So yes, people tend to get very opinionated on this, not to make anyone who willfully and knowingly pays more than average for meat feel bad, but to make sure those sitting on the fence about PMR, and are maybe considering it, aren't scared away by the price.

If you have plenty of money and the cost of meat is small potatoes in your overall monthly budget, and you want to spend whatever you think is necessary for the sake of convenience, I don't think anyone would think badly of that decision as long as the dog continues to benefit from the PMR diet. The dog doesn't care if you paid .50/lb or 5.00/lb for his meat, as long as it's meat. I only WISH I could afford to buy meat for my dogs at any price for the sake on convenience, but I can't so price shopping is important to me, and others too. But I can totally understand how it isn't the most important issue to others. Still, we certainly want to do whatever we can to dispel the impression that many people have that PMR is expensive, and more costly than kibble. That takes a lot of effort and constant reinforcement by the community. It's not meant to make anyone feel bad if they pay more than average. 

ANYONE and EVERYONE who feeds PMR should be proud, regardless of what it costs them to do it.


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## Mia (Oct 4, 2010)

JayJayisme said:


> ANYONE and EVERYONE who feeds PMR should be proud, regardless of what it costs them to do it.


Triple THUMBS UP for this comment!! :biggrin:


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## John Rambo (Sep 27, 2010)

I am not trying to be too critical...but threads like this make me ROFL. Lets educate others without sounding demeaning...thnxs


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## DaneMama (Jun 27, 2008)

John Rambo said:


> I am not trying to be too critical...but threads like this make me ROFL. Lets educate others without sounding demeaning...thnxs


What is your point by this statement exactly?


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## spookychick13 (Jan 26, 2010)

I really don't think anyone was trying to be patronizing?


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## whiteleo (Sep 7, 2008)

I just want to say to Corgipaws, this definitely wasn't directed at you. I'd just like that when someone posts that they paid such and such for something that you guys wouldn't be so quick to jump on it and say WE never pay over .99lb for anything other than game meat and I would never spend my money on that!

People have a mind and a heart and they can spend as much or as little as they chose. I just chose to spend a little more knowing that my dogs already have health issues in the genetics and it makes me feel good as these are my only children.


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## DaneMama (Jun 27, 2008)

whiteleo said:


> I just want to say to Corgipaws, this definitely wasn't directed at you. I'd just like that when someone posts that they paid such and such for something that you guys wouldn't be so quick to jump on it and say WE never pay over .99lb for anything other than game meat and I would never spend my money on that!


So that means that you shouldn't post up and say what you pay either...? If we all should live by that same standards I think the rule should apply to all. It just so happens that *most* people here just can't afford the more expensive meats. It just so happens that *most* people here look for the best deals they can because they know that even those meats are better than anything commercially processed. I think the fact that this forum is totally public and everyone is entitled to their own opinions, I have no issue with anyone sharing what they'd pay and what they wouldn't pay. If you have issues with most of the raw feeders here posting up about their opinions, that should be motivation for you to represent the other side of the table and explain why the more expensive meats can be better. 




> People have a mind and a heart and they can spend as much or as little as they chose. I just chose to spend a little more knowing that my dogs already have health issues in the genetics and it makes me feel good as these are my only children.


It's awesome that you can afford to spend a little more. I hope to be there someday. But as it stands right now, we feed about 10 pounds of meat per day, so we spend about $7-10 per day on our dogs. That's about $210-300 per month. Even if that were doubled, we couldn't afford it. So to me I will stick to feeding the meats I can afford which is $1 or less per pound. Our dogs are our only kids too. Just because we can't provide all natural meats 100% of the time doesn't mean we don't love them any less :wink:


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## CorgiPaws (Mar 31, 2009)

whiteleo said:


> I'd just like that when someone posts that they paid such and such for something that you guys wouldn't be so quick to jump on it and say WE never pay over .99lb for anything other than game meat and I would never spend my money on that!


But.... that's... my opinion? And... this... is a forum?
I think it's a simple matter that I guess I've never recognized as a real issue. I get a lot of heat in certain groups (not so much here) for not ding all organic, grass fed, local, etc. stuff. I also am the first to say that I do not have a super high budget, and good deals make me happy. 


Different people have different resources! In Vegas I probably spent 20% less on raw than I do here in Utah. Jon and Natalie get crazy good deals in Denver. (so much so that I hauled 200lbs home with me last time I visited!) SOme of us can afford organic. SOme of us can't. But we all have our limits, budgets, and beliefs. I guess I never realized that what I spend on meat would offend someone?


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

only speaking for myself....sometimes, it's more perception than anything else....


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## DaneMama (Jun 27, 2008)

magicre said:


> only speaking for myself....sometimes, it's more perception than anything else....


Can you explain this a bit further? I'm not sure exactly what you're perception is about what....?


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

danemama08 said:


> Can you explain this a bit further? I'm not sure exactly what you're perception is about what....?


i think it's because i'm a newbie, so when i hear someone say...i would never pay more than such and such for something...then i think i'm doing something wrong or i'm being extravagant.....

and then i read some of the menus given....and i have to wonder again, if i've gone overboard or over the top because i'm new and over excited, like a kid in a candy store.

like why can't i just feed chicken as a staple, pork/turkey/beef on occasion/canned fish...liver and kidney...

instead, i'm constantly haunting grocery stores for sales on unenhanced meats....i wait for chicken sales.....i buy in bulk....i buy from my co op....because i simply can't resist it. and yes, i have spent some bucks...i have two and a half freezers filled constantly because i have this notion that i'm supposed to give them as many parts of every animal as possible...not feed enhanced...yada yada yada LOL

and i often read about ten year old deer heads being fed...one lady on another list wanted to know if it were okay to feed her recently dead dog to her other dog....you know, cycle of life...and all...
how long is road kill okay to feed.... 

and i just can't do it.

i can't feed my dogs chicken that i forgot to cook....my logical brain says it's okay...my human ness says no it's not...if i won't eat it, my dogs don't get it....

and i wonder if it will calm down....ever....so sometimes i get a little defensive or oversensitive....maybe it's because these ARE our kids....or because i'm that new...i don't know...

just sometimes i feel as if it's a badge of honour to NOT pay more than 70-90 cents a pound....and i feel like i'll never earn it.

i mean no offense to anyone. i'm jealous that people find such deals....


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## whiteleo (Sep 7, 2008)

I think if you go back and read some of the earlier posts made you might see how it comes across that if you pay too much your really not doing it right, Or the fact that I never EVER being in bold letters might come across as making the person look stupid. And I'm not just talking about this last post about tripe, I'm talking about many, many posts.

I have always talked about the benefits of feeding my dogs an organic meat diet, if you remember back when I brought up the fact about my hormones and changing to organic meat, milk etc. has drastically helped the headache issue and why do we think girls nowadays are starting menustration at such a young age? Hormones in the food! And I've always suggested to people that they at least feed organic organs as this is the one thing that makes good sense.


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## Mia (Oct 4, 2010)

I think we all feel that way. There is no right or wrong way to do it. Some have different beliefs, opinions and so forth. Like I once heard someone said,"It's pretty hard to screw up raw feeding!" Well that goes on every level. From the meat, to the bone, to the prices, to everything. Some people prefer to cook it others can serve it up frozen and raw. You have to be comfortable in your own shoes darling! You can't try and top everyone or do what everyone else does. I'm sure all of us have developed our own way in the raw feeding career. I go by a chart, percentage of each (bone, muscle meat, organ, liver). Some people just handle it over without portions or they feed all bone one day and so forth. It's each to their own. Whatever you feel comfortable with. 

Just because you can't do it a certain way doesn't mean you won't forever. You can practice. It's mind over matter. If you try baby steps to overcome not cooking it and feeding it and recongizing they are dogs instead of looking at them like humans maybe it won't be an issue. It took me a LONG time to realize that. They haven't got the same immunity and bodily defenses that we do. Our bodies, minds, all that don't function the same way. So yeah we would get sick on raw, it enhances the dog's body and kicks their immunity to start functioning the way it was intented.

I always thought raw was bad for a long time. Until I realized if it was that bad then why do wolves do it? Then I started researching, asking questions, and my friend paved the way for a supplier that was close to her. So maybe try, that's all you can do. The success for you to even try is a great accomplishment!:smile:


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## DaneMama (Jun 27, 2008)

I wouldn't call it a badge of honor that we are able to find cheap deals because usually it's on meat that isn't of the highest quality. The badge of honor would go to the person who finds the highest quality meats for under $1 per pound!

I see it as a badge of burden actually. We *have* to find these deals to even afford to feed raw. If we fed kibble, we wouldn't be able to afford the higher quality brands, which is one BIG reason we feed raw. 

Instead of feeling jealous that we find such good deals on meats you'd probably not eat yourself, feel proud and thankful that you ARE able to give your dogs the very best that you can provide! That's how I feel...I feel proud and thankful that we CAN afford to feed raw because there are cheaper alternatives out there.

ETA: I whole heartedly believe that we here on DFC pave the way to raw feeding, but it's up to the individual about deciding what they think is best. People are told what opinions are but most people here I consider free thinkers and are able to decide for themselves what they want to do. This goes for everything dog related and not just about food


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

danemama08 said:


> I wouldn't call it a badge of honor that we are able to find cheap deals because usually it's on meat that isn't of the highest quality. The badge of honor would go to the person who finds the highest quality meats for under $1 per pound!
> 
> I see it as a badge of burden actually. We *have* to find these deals to even afford to feed raw. If we fed kibble, we wouldn't be able to afford the higher quality brands, which is one BIG reason we feed raw.
> 
> ...


i see your point.....as i had said, i am new and treading on very shaky ground, so i keep thinking i'm doing something wrong....you've explained it well.

plus, the notion that posting prices that can be gotten...might just help someone cross the bridge to raw is also an excellent point...to show them it can be done.

thank you.


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## whiteleo (Sep 7, 2008)

Well then lets put it in the context that it should be in then: No bold Never will I pay that price for that, or you shouldn't spend your money on that because its too much money and its not necessary, (maybe not in your eyes).


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## jdatwood (Apr 13, 2009)

I'm sorry, you're not going to dictate how I express my opinion.


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## whiteleo (Sep 7, 2008)

O.K. then bring it on!


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## jdatwood (Apr 13, 2009)

whiteleo said:


> O.K. then bring it on!


WOW, seriously?

I refuse to drop down to your level. Thanks for the offer though.

I can handle adults expressing differing opinions. :wink:

I'm appalled that you even think you have a right to tell anyone here HOW they should post. It's THEIR opinions. Don't like them? Don't read them. Move on. Easy enough...


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## DaneMama (Jun 27, 2008)

whiteleo said:


> Well then lets put it in the context that it should be in then: No bold Never will I pay that price for that, or you shouldn't spend your money on that because its too much money and its not necessary, (maybe not in your eyes).


How about....NO

I'm sorry but the "rules" here are not going to be that nitpicky. As long as people do not name call or are outwardly degrading in their ways of expressing their opinions on here the rules of the forum haven't been broken. I don't see us employing a "don't say anything that ever contradicts what others think" rule. It'd be awfully boring here if we did.

As many people have said here time and time again: this is a public forum for debate and discussion about all issues concerning dogs. Discussions and debates should be respectful to every member, even if points of view are disagreed upon. Lets not get overly sensitive about all these little things.



whiteleo said:


> O.K. then bring it on!


Bring on what? 

Maybe you should post up about all the reasons WHY you decide to feed the more natural meats and actually have a constructive discussion about it, instead of complaining about how we all tend to disagree or have a different point of view? For the record, I DO agree with the reasons of feeding better meats because I DO think that its better for the dogs. It just so happens that we can't afford those meats most of the time.

I really don't understand what there is for you to be upset about in the first place? Does what we say negate what you believe at all? Does it adversely affect the things that you choose to feed your dogs and why? I would love to know exactly what it is about most of the other raw feeders on here who can't afford to feed the way that you do that gets you so bent out of shape? Just because we recommend looking for cheaper meats to newbies? 

I personally don't assume that people have that kind of money in the first place....Most of the time people have the wrong perception of raw and it being so expensive, when we all know that it doesn't HAVE to be expensive. I would say MOST people looking into raw have to consider the cost as being a constraint on what they feed their dogs. Which is 100% okay in my book because at least they are looking to do what they can best provide their dogs


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## CorgiPaws (Mar 31, 2009)

But.....
I really never *EVER *will pay $3+ per pound for tripe. 
That's my opinion. 
Bold, or not. 
I'll make it red next time if you'd like. 
Sorry, I've ALWAYS bolded words that I am stressing. Look at my posts here from the beginning of my time here. 


This thread is silly to me. It offends people what I will and won't pay? It offends someone that I won't spend $3 a pound for something that I deemed useless for my dog after trying it out for three months? Seriously? If you're THAT (need I make it bold) upset about what other people pay, than I'm not sure what to tell you, other than I'm thrilled you can afford the all natural, organic stuff. I wish I could, but I can't. There is not a protein source out there that I will spend that on. Why? Because I have more affordable options. Because I am not loaded. Because I feel that what I am doing is working just fine. I add other sources when I see a great deal, sure. But the position I'm in right now: I'm not going to not make my car payment so that I can pay $5 per pound on organic chicken. not in my cards. 

Again, I stress how affordable raw CAN be merely because I want to get it out there that you don't have to have big bucks to go raw. On the contrary! I very easily afford raw, but no way in heck could I feed my girls EVO or Orijen and not cut into the budget elsewhere. 

I'll be the first to say, that the more natural, hormone-free, antibiotic-free, local you can keep your dog's raw diet... the BETTER. You are doing BETTER than I am. On the same token, I will not for a second feel bad for my girls that right now, they get what I can afford to give them, and I feel I'm doing a darn good job, actually.


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## whiteleo (Sep 7, 2008)

You know its not that I can afford stuff, its that I choose to afford these things for my dogs, just like you choose how you post up your replys. I can see someone new to the boards who maybe isn't used to your BOLD replys, do you remember that this was discussed how it was like "yelling at someone" when typing in bold. I would almost be offended by it, if I didn't know better I'd say you were a little jealous.


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## CorgiPaws (Mar 31, 2009)

whiteleo said:


> You know its not that I can afford stuff, its that I choose to afford these things for my dogs, just like you choose how you post up your replys. I can see someone new to the boards who maybe isn't used to your BOLD replys, do you remember that this was discussed how it was like "yelling at someone" when typing in bold. I would almost be offended by it, if I didn't know better I'd say you were a little jealous.


NO, THIS IS RUDE. TO POST IN ALL CAPS IS GENERALLY ACCEPTED AS YELLING. 

Doing THIS merely puts emphasis on one word in a sentence. 
Sorry, I can't CHOOSE to give myself a bigger paycheck. 


Jealous isn't quite the right word, because I'm content with what I can give my dogs. DO I wish I could buy what you do? Sure. But it's NOT something I'm losing sleep over. 
I'm ignoring the mention of seaweed. Dogs don't scuba dive. hahaha. 


If I didn't know any better, I'd say you were overly sensitive.


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## jdatwood (Apr 13, 2009)

whiteleo said:


> You know its not that I can afford stuff, its that I choose to afford these things for my dogs, just like you choose how you post up your replys. I can see someone new to the boards who maybe aren't used to your BOLD replys, do you remember that this was discussed how it was like "yelling at someone" when typing in bold. I would almost be offended by it, if I didn't know better I'd say you were a little jealous.


Apparently you can't be bothered to address the posts that Natalie, Linsey and I have made. Instead you resort to snide remarks. That's a great way to gain respect from members.

I'm certainly not jealous you feed your dogs $4/lb partially digested cow SH*T. Or the fact you feed your carnivores... SEAWEED???    

If anything I feel sorry for your poor carnivores being forced to eat an omnivore diet.


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## whiteleo (Sep 7, 2008)

The seaweed is for the trace minerals dogs are missing in their diet from raw feeding, especially "iodine" Jon, if you were the guru you claim to be on rawfeeding you'd know that.


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## CorgiPaws (Mar 31, 2009)

whiteleo said:


> The seaweed is for the trace minerals dogs are missing in their diet from raw feeding, especially "iodine" Jon, if you were the guru you claim to be on rawfeeding you'd know that.


Last I heard, Carnivores did best on a CARNIVORE diet. Isn't that what makes them... carnivores?


Dangit, now I have to buy Annie scuba gear?! This is actually GREAT news, see I've been wanting to get certified for some time now, but had no one to go with! Now that I know dogs scuba dive, I'll just get Annie some gear, and BAM, I have a scuba partner.


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## RachelsaurusRexU (Sep 4, 2010)

Let's all have a beer and calm down!


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## DaneMama (Jun 27, 2008)

Jon is an expert in PMR...not BARF

BARF diets are ones that call for such additives and supplements.



RachelsaurusRexU said:


> Let's all have a beer and calm down!


Totally agreed!!!!


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## RawFedDogs (Jun 16, 2008)

Thread locked by RFD. Y'all all need to calm down some. This thread isn't accomplishing anything cept hard feelings.


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