# "Grain-free" kibble



## evildiva (Jul 3, 2011)

I just wanted to say that I read the ingredients list of so-called "grain-free" kibble, just to find out what other substitute they use to bulk out the biscuits, and it's mostly potato!!! Instead of corn or wheat! What a con! There are no "vegetable-product-free" kibbles, but I think that people think grain-free means it has mostly meat in it or something and is higher quality. It really is a scam, and it disgusts me how deceptive the pet food industry is

My puppy was weaned on kibble by the breeder, and as soon as I got him home at 10 weeks old I put him straight onto raw. I will never ever feed that kibble rubbish. It's mostly grain (or potato for grain-free!).... they aren't budgies, they're carnivores!


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## Maritan (Nov 11, 2011)

Yup. Orijen themselves stated in their white paper ( http://files.championpetfoods.com/ORIJEN_White_Paper.pdf ) that there HAS to be some carbohydrates to get the meat and fat to find together and stay in kibble form.

If I ever decide to get a puppy from a breeder, I will try my best to get them to wean at least my choice of pup only on raw...


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## Scarlett_O' (May 19, 2011)

You cant make kibble without having veggies.....its just impossible....it would be some sort of strange dehydrated raw, like you can buy and then add water too!:wink:

But yaa....nope, you cant make kibble with out some sort of "binder"!

Edit to add: "Veggie" meaning plant material....it is NOT possible.


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## meggels (May 30, 2010)

Scarlett_O' said:


> You cant make kibble without having veggies.....its just impossible....it would be some sort of strange dehydrated raw, like you can buy and then add water too!:wink:
> 
> But yaa....nope, you cant make kibble with out some sort of "binder"!




do you mean you can't make kibble without a carb? cause you can make them without veggies lol


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## Caty M (Aug 13, 2010)

Can't be made without some sort of plant material... there. lol.


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## Scarlett_O' (May 19, 2011)

Caty M said:


> Can't be made without some sort of plant material... there. lol.


Yes, thank you Caty....Plat Material is what I meant!:wink:


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## Unosmom (May 3, 2009)

it depends on the kibble, in some grain free's potatoes make up the bulk of the food, other companies strive to use more meat protein by reducing the carbs. Either way some form of carb/starch needs to be used in order to hold the kibble together. If a grain inclusive food is 34% protein and maybe has 1-2 grain sources, obviously I would feed it over a food that has 21% protein and grain free.


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## Maritan (Nov 11, 2011)

Unosmom - Interesting you'd feed a higher protein grain kibble rather than a lower protein grain free kibble (if you had to feed kibble that is)?

If the 1-2 grain kibble has higher protein content, how much of the protein is derived from the grains? And is any grain protein truly bio-available to our dogs? My choice would actually be for grain free kibble just because I think grains are evil for our pups.


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## Caty M (Aug 13, 2010)

It's not GRAINS that are bad for our pups, it's CARBS.. grains just happen to have a lot (as do potatoes). If a kibble has a high protein and fat content, and the grain/potato/starch isn't in the first couple ingredients, you can be fairly sure that the kibble is pretty meat based.


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## PDXdogmom (Jun 30, 2010)

A number of grain-free kibble formulas are now available that don't use potato as a binder. I've seen tapioca, chickpeas and split peas for example. The quandary is that when a formula (Canine Caviar's new grain-free) lists the first 3 ingredients as: duck meal, chickpea, duck fat; it's especially hard to determine how much of the protein is coming from the chickpeas which are high in protein compared to rice or potato. 

While chickpeas, split peas and lentils sound like healthier items than white rice (which is definitely true for me as a pescatarian), it allows the dog food manufacturer to put in less meat protein while at the same time retaining a decent amount of overall protein.


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## MollyWoppy (Mar 19, 2010)

Personally, if I look at a kibble and it is grain free and has named meat or named meat meal for at least the first 4 ingredients with more named meats further down the list, then I'm happy to feed it.
I feed Mollie raw, but Windy the cat won't eat raw or canned, so I give her the absolute best kibble I can find (that she will consent to eating). I can't do anymore, but I'm happy that I'm giving her the absolute best I can under the circumstances.
Anyway, its heaps better than probably 85% of the cats and dogs out there are getting, so you can't beat yourself up too much.


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## naturalfeddogs (Jan 6, 2011)

Unosmom said:


> it depends on the kibble, in some grain free's potatoes make up the bulk of the food, other companies strive to use more meat protein by reducing the carbs. Either way some form of carb/starch needs to be used in order to hold the kibble together. If a grain inclusive food is 34% protein and maybe has 1-2 grain sources, obviously I would feed it over a food that has 21% protein and grain free.


So, in kibble it takes carbs/starchs to hold the kibble together? Is that pretty much the main reason its there? I always thaught it was for added energy I guess. Sorry if this is a dumb question, but I never really thaught about it.


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## DaViking (Sep 27, 2011)




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## DaViking (Sep 27, 2011)

naturalfeddogs said:


> So, in kibble it takes carbs/starchs to hold the kibble together? Is that pretty much the main reason its there? I always thaught it was for added energy I guess. Sorry if this is a dumb question, but I never really thaught about it.


No but it is a natural binder so most use starch. Wysong sells a starch free line. There are also synthetic alternatives. Starch in moderate to low levels is in no shape or form bad for your average healthy active dog.


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## SpooOwner (Oct 1, 2010)

ED - I love the photo of your dog! Just wanted to let you know he's a cutie!


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## DaViking (Sep 27, 2011)

evildiva said:


> I just wanted to say that I read the ingredients list of so-called "grain-free" kibble, just to find out what other substitute they use to bulk out the biscuits, and it's mostly potato!!! Instead of corn or wheat! What a con! There are no "vegetable-product-free" kibbles, but I think that people think grain-free means it has mostly meat in it or something and is higher quality. It really is a scam, and it disgusts me how deceptive the pet food industry is
> 
> My puppy was weaned on kibble by the breeder, and as soon as I got him home at 10 weeks old I put him straight onto raw. I will never ever feed that kibble rubbish. It's mostly grain (or potato for grain-free!).... they aren't budgies, they're carnivores!


It is absolutely not a scam. It is just a matter of educating yourself of what you are getting. There are new "modern" GF foods with 70%+ meats, where 70% to 90% of the proteins comes from meats. That is not a scam. That is a huge upgrade from old "classic" formulas. Nothing is used to bulk out the formulas. The bioavailability is very high. Sure you can question the substitution of high quality grains with potato but that is not a discussion about scamming.


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## DaViking (Sep 27, 2011)

Maritan said:


> And is any grain protein truly bio-available to our dogs?


Yes, the question have been answered many times here on this forum.


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## evildiva (Jul 3, 2011)

It's a scam if the companies selling such products tell us that dogs need vegetables/carbs in their diet because it has to be 'balanced' blah blah... I can assure you, big corporations and the like DO use very questionable methods to sell their products. As an old and well-known example just look at cigarettes - it's a product that kills people, and in the good-old-days they were telling you that you should smoke because your doctor does and it's healthy - what a load of bull, and they KNEW it! Same for fast food and the rest of it. They tell you it's all balanced etc but it turns out its full of rubbish

p.s. SpooOwner - thanks! yours is cute too!

p.p.s. check this documentary on the pet food industry http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IopTd7aC4sM


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## Unosmom (May 3, 2009)

I dont see how its a scam honestly. I'm not in favor of certain brands which jumped on the whole grain free bandwagon and started producing same low quality kibble but using potatoes instead of grains. Not exactly an upgrade. But how much protein can the kibble really contain for it to be qualified good quality? For example EVO is almost 45% protein, 20% fat and 15% carbs. Seems great, except I would never feed such high protein diet because my dog would become obese since he wont be burning off the calories and will start counter surfing again if I cut back on the amount. I would rather feed a food thats around 35% protein and maybe little more carbs. I know its not putting extra strain on my dogs kidneys, and he's still getting sufficient meat protein. 
Several companies now are producing grain free kibble with other binders such as chickpeas which are lower on glycemic index and may be better for dogs that are prone to yeast infections. Anyways, the point of all this is, I'm not going to condemn a company for using potatoes, as long as the kibble has sufficient meat protein I dont see a problem with it.


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