# Meat Wholesaler & Variety; Lots of Questions, AGAIN!



## nortknee (May 5, 2011)

I've been looking around our area for a raw wholesaler. The closest one is about 4 hours away (no surprise there), so we'd have to make frequent trips, but here is the website.

Products - Totally Raw Natural Dog Food

I emailed and asked for a bulk price list. Still waiting on that.

Does anyone feed BONELESS beef? Is it worth it?
Does tripe count as an organ, or what would you classify that as in their 80/10/10 model?
The "organ blend" is interesting...do you just chuck random organs in there, or do you normally know what they are?
Do the chicken necks have any bone in them, or is that just a muscle meat treat and you should be feeding backs/quarters/legs for the bone portion of chicken?
The lamb and pork bones look good, and the beef heart is obviously going to be organ meat as well as being "red" meat, so yay for that! 

How do you guys feel about dehydrated beef liver for training treats? What do you use as training treats if you don't use that?
How often do you feed "treats" like chicken feet and recreational bones? What's even considered a rec bone, the whole oxtail? (I don't know that I could do a beef neck stinking around for days...ew.)

I think I'm going to attempt to avoid ground up, unless you guys use that as filler for days when they don't get necks and bone-in stuff?

Thanks for everyone's patience...
This is probably alot easier than I'm making it, it's all just very very new for me. :\


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## Liz (Sep 27, 2010)

When you are starting you will need just chicken but is the proceesor is that far away then I would get two or three and be set for the next few months. You will need bone in chicken. I avoid chicken necks becase my dogs will swallow them whole. I started with chicken frames then chicken quarters and whole chicken. I also used turkey necks for my necks protein. Good meat, bone and muscle. I also had duck necks which I still buy for variety. 

Yes I feed boneless and bone in beef but I get a screamin deal of $1.00 per pound through our co-op. My dogs need bone with every meal even though they have been eating raw about 1 year. We also feed lamb lung, trachea and oter organs. I also buy chicken and beef heart through the meat processor. 

My dogs hate liver so I dehydrate it and use it for treats. I prefer dehydrating it to cooking on higher heat. We purchase goat from our local ethnic market and rabbit also.


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## nortknee (May 5, 2011)

Liz said:


> When you are starting you will need just chicken but is the proceesor is that far away then I would get two or three and be set for the next few months. You will need bone in chicken. I avoid chicken necks becase my dogs will swallow them whole. I started with chicken frames then chicken quarters and whole chicken. I also used turkey necks for my necks protein. Good meat, bone and muscle. I also had duck necks which I still buy for variety.
> 
> Yes I feed boneless and bone in beef but I get a screamin deal of $1.00 per pound through our co-op. My dogs need bone with every meal even though they have been eating raw about 1 year. We also feed lamb lung, trachea and oter organs. I also buy chicken and beef heart through the meat processor.
> 
> My dogs hate liver so I dehydrate it and use it for treats. I prefer dehydrating it to cooking on higher heat. We purchase goat from our local ethnic market and rabbit also.


I wish there WAS a co-op closer! :\
A couple chickens will last a labrador puppy 2-3 months?!


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## CavePaws (Jan 25, 2011)

nortknee said:


> I've been looking around our area for a raw wholesaler. The closest one is about 4 hours away (no surprise there), so we'd have to make frequent trips, but here is the website.
> 
> Products - Totally Raw Natural Dog Food
> 
> ...


Is this the only wholesale you can find? Can you not find a meat processing plant or a place that sells specifically chicken, pork, or beef in bulk. These places tend to be a lot cheaper than a place advertising their food specifically for dogs...I'd stay away from the pork necks and beef necks unless you can get big slabs of them and you have a very very good chewer. If you can get your hands on a pork spine or pork ribs those are edible and depending on how fast your dog chews they could be considered recreational bones I guess. 

I feed boneless beef because I get a good deal on it. I buy beef and pork hearts in bulk. Beef heart is actually a very rich muscle meat. If I get a good deal on ground meat I buy that too, I just don't go out of my way to get ground stuff. Well I feed chicken feet on a daily basis right now. I have two dogs who are getting them as supplements and the others get them as treats since they really don't _need _the added nutrients.


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## Liz (Sep 27, 2010)

I am sorry I think faster than I type. I meant that I would buy two or three proteins so you wouldn't have to go back for a month or two. Just starting out I bought chicken frames and chicken quarters, then we moved to turkey neck and turkey heart, then we added duck neck. That should take at least 6 weeks to introduce if not more. I bought a case of each but I feed 5 dogs 4 of them collies and one sheltie. That lasted just a couple of months. My collie pup eats 1 pound 4 ounces a day according to her projected weight and does well. So a lab pup should be about there - you are probably looking at 9 pounds per week. 1 40 pound case of each of them should last you a while. Then on your next order purchasing some pork and beef would round out their diet. Oh fish also. I added that last as it was pretty rich for them tehn we added organ. I hope I typed this one right. Sorry for any confusion.


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## nortknee (May 5, 2011)

CavePaws said:


> Is this the only wholesale you can find? Can you not find a meat processing plant or a place that sells specifically chicken, pork, or beef in bulk. These places tend to be a lot cheaper than a place advertising their food specifically for dogs.


There's also a local butcher that's within walking distance who occasionally sells whole pigs/cows, but I haven't talked to him about buying raw meaty bones and organs. Maybe he'd cut a deal...


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## CavePaws (Jan 25, 2011)

It's seriously worth a try! See what he can do for you, and maybe you can score some green tripe from him. :O


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## Northwoods10 (Nov 22, 2010)

nortknee said:


> I've been looking around our area for a raw wholesaler. The closest one is about 4 hours away (no surprise there), so we'd have to make frequent trips, but here is the website.
> 
> Products - Totally Raw Natural Dog Food
> 
> ...


1-Boneless Beef: Yes, we feed boneless beef. I feed a mixture of ground beef, beef heart & beef liver. They get that every morning for the most part. That is what makes up a good portion of their red meat unless I have pork or venison. It is worth it to feed it if you can afford it. There isn't much bone in meat you can feed from beef. (Some people feed beef ribs, all a matter of if your dog can handle them or not) 

2-Tripe: We feed tripe as a muscle meat, we don't consider it an organ. 

3-Organ blend: As long as they're getting some organ (approx. 10%) balanced over time, thats fine. You don't have to be exact with everything you're feeding. They do recommend 5% of the organ amount be liver of some sort. So, I try to feed a bit more liver than everything else. 

4-Chicken Necks: Too small to feed any of my dogs. Morgan has swallowed them whole before (she passed them just fine). But we stick to larger cuts so that doesn't happen. Turkey necks are great. Both do have bone in them. Chicken backs, quarters, thighs, & legs all are good for my dogs. I'd be careful with legs & thighs with much bigger dogs though. Again, an easy thing to swallow whole. 

5- Beef heart is not organ meat. Any heart is considered muscle meat. 

6- Treats: We use itty bitty training treats that are like 1 calorie each. I ordered them from Leerburg Dog Training | 16,000 pages of dog training information, 300 free streaming videos, DVDs and Free Dog Training ebooks But I haven't needed to use them for a while now, my dogs train just fine without treats too. I am trying to get out of using any commercial treats for them. I have a few biscuits left. The biscuits we do buy are all natural & grain free though. 

We haven't used chicken feet yet, but that is something I would like to offer as a snack or treat. Rec bones I would consider marrow bones or beef ribs (for some dogs)...but I haven't been giving marrow bones either due to how hard they are and too many stories of dogs breaking teeth on them. (The general rule is no weight bearing bones of large animals). 

7- Ground items: We try to use them sparingly. Pretty much the only ground stuff they get is their gr. beef/heart/liver in the mornings and tripe on occasion. Other than that they get whole pieces or large chunks of meat. Better for their teeth! 

Hope this helps!! 

And yes, if you can find a Co-op or regular meat distributor...its usually cheaper.


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## nortknee (May 5, 2011)

So, for a puppy, do you simply feed chicken backs 3x a day? 
PMR.com says 2-3 days...so that's 6-9 chickens in 3 days?

Hum. I'm confused...
A lab can't POSSIBLY eat that much...can it?


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## Ania's Mommy (Feb 8, 2009)

nortknee said:


> Does anyone feed BONELESS beef? Is it worth it?


Totally. THe only beef we feed is boneless. I don't like ANY beef bones, as they seem to be too dense.



> Does tripe count as an organ, or what would you classify that as in their 80/10/10 model?


Tripe isn't an organ. It's considered muscle meat.



> The "organ blend" is interesting...do you just chuck random organs in there, or do you normally know what they are?


To be honest, their "organ blend" kinda sucks. Two of the four ingredients are not even organs (tongue & heart). Plus, you have no way of telling how much of each is in the blend. SO you could be feeding barely any organs at all. You're better off getting liver and kidney from the grocery store.



> Do the chicken necks have any bone in them, or is that just a muscle meat treat and you should be feeding backs/quarters/legs for the bone portion of chicken?


It would be very very hard to produce boneless chicken necks, as they are pretty much a web of bones with a little meat. So they are most assuredly bone inclusive. 

If you are feeding your dogs chicken necks, your dogs must meet one or more of the following criteria: 1) Your dog is very small and has a little mouth. I'm talking chihuahua size. 2) your dog is huge and can easily swallow a neck whole with little possibility of choking. 3) your dog is a meticulous chewer. I mean me-tic-u-lous.




> The lamb and pork bones look good,


I would say the same rules for chicken necks would apply to the necks offered on this website. The are kinda broken down a bit more than I would like.



> and the beef heart is obviously going to be organ meat as well as being "red" meat, so yay for that!


Heart = rich muscle meat. Not organ. :frown:



> How do you guys feel about dehydrated beef liver for training treats? What do you use as training treats if you don't use that?


I think dehyrated liver is fine for treats. I'd still like to include fresh liver too, though. I actually use fat trimmings from our "human" meat most often. I also use Stella & Chewies Carnivore Crunchies. 



> How often do you feed "treats" like chicken feet and recreational bones?


You could feed a couple of chicken feet a day if you wanted, depending on how big your dog is. I would feed a rec bone maybe a couple times a week max.



> What's even considered a rec bone, the whole oxtail? (I don't know that I could do a beef neck stinking around for days...ew.)


A rec bone is probably best described as a bone that has little meat and is not able to be quickly consumed. Beef and pork ribs, for example.



> I think I'm going to attempt to avoid ground up, unless you guys use that as filler for days when they don't get necks and bone-in stuff?


I think avoiding ground is a good idea. Ground meat has more opportunity for bacteria invasion, and you don't get any dental benefits. However, if you can get a good deal on it and/or it is the only feasible way to feed a certain kind of meat, feed away! :becky:



> Thanks for everyone's patience...
> This is probably alot easier than I'm making it, it's all just very very new for me. :\


Fugeddaboutit! We were all there once too. :wink:


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## Northwoods10 (Nov 22, 2010)

nortknee said:


> So, for a puppy, do you simply feed chicken backs 3x a day?
> PMR.com says 2-3 days...so that's 6-9 chickens in 3 days?
> 
> Hum. I'm confused...
> A lab can't POSSIBLY eat that much...can it?


The guideline for a growing puppy is 2-3% of its ideal adult weight. Remi (GSP) we started on raw at 13 weeks. We guessed his ideal adult weight to be 55 lbs based on the size of his parents. We started out feeding him about 1.25 lbs per day, which is between 2-2.5% of 55 lbs. Now that he's more active, he eats almost 2 lbs per day which is over 3%. He has a very high metabolism & is very active, so he needs that much food to keep the weight on and grow at a steady pace. GSP's are probably not a good comparisson to a lab in the amount they eat....even though he is smaller than my labs, he eats quite a bit more. And I've heard this is true for a lot of GSP's simply because they are go go go. 

But, even so, depending on the size of the labs you are looking at, it could require quite a bit of food. Its always best to start out on the lighter end and work your way up to a correct sized portion. So, lets say your pups parents are potentially 65 & 80 lbs, we could guess that if you got a male it might be pretty close to 80 lbs, and maybe a bit smaller for a female. So we'll go with 70 lbs to start out with. 70 lbs x 2% is 1.4 lbs per day. You could very well be feeding 3-4 chicken backs per day depending on the size of them. 

Keeping an eye on body condition as they grow is crucial, it will let you know if you're feeding too much or not enough. If you see all of their ribs you want to feed more, if you can see just the last couple ribs and a defined waist you are doing good, if you can't see any ribs and they have no visable waist you want to cut back. 

As they mature you will want to keep an eye on the amounts you are feeding too, and also depending on activity level. :smile:


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## nortknee (May 5, 2011)

Ok, so for a puppies daily meals it would be something like this...

Monday Breakfast: Chicken Breast
M Lunch: Chicken Back
M Dinner: Chicken Quarter
Tuesday Breakfast: Chicken Quarter
T Lunch: Chicken Breast
T Dinner: Chicken Back
W Breakfast: Chicken Quarter
W Lunch: Turkey Neck
W Dinner: Chicken Breast
R Breakfast: Turkey Neck
R Lunch: Chicken Quarter
R Dinner: Turkey Wing
F Breakfast: Chicken Back
F Lunch: Turkey Wing
F Dinner: Turkey Breast

...something like that?


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## Northwoods10 (Nov 22, 2010)

nortknee said:


> Ok, so for a puppies daily meals it would be something like this...
> 
> Monday Breakfast: Chicken Breast
> M Lunch: Chicken Back
> ...


This is fine for a little bit later on, but for now, I'd stick with chicken for the first week. Puppies generally transition easier than adult dogs who've been on kibble a long time, but just to keep things simple.....chicken & chicken only for the first week. If he/she is doing well after the first week of chicken, you could try adding in some turkey.


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## Liz (Sep 27, 2010)

Well until you are good at eyeing portions you want to weigh your meat. I got a cheap scale at Walmart. If you have a lab approximating 55 -60 pounds as adult you will probably sart feeding 1.25 pounds per day. Some chicken quarters weigh 1/2 pound or more. The whole turkey necks I get weigh a pound or more so a turkey neck and maybe a back would be a days meal. My collies do well on 2% of their body weight but labs may take more to maintain a good weight. I just watch their structure and if I see too much rib or see spine I add to their portions. Pups do really well on this. I changed my girls to 2 meals a day at 16 weeks. It is easier to feed larger portions and they seem more satisfied than when I break the portions up into smaller meals. Also, try not to feed more than the 2 - 2.5% at first as they can get diarrhea from eating too much. 
Good Luck.

Monday Breakfast: Chicken Breast
M Lunch: Chicken Back
M Dinner: Chicken Quarter
Tuesday Breakfast: Chicken Quarter
T Lunch: Chicken Breast
T Dinner: Chicken Back
W Breakfast: Chicken Quarter
W Lunch: Turkey Neck
W Dinner: Chicken Breast
R Breakfast: Turkey Neck
R Lunch: Chicken Quarter
R Dinner: Turkey Wing
F Breakfast: Chicken Back
F Lunch: Turkey Wing
F Dinner: Turkey Breast


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## nortknee (May 5, 2011)

Northwoods10 said:


> This is fine for a little bit later on, but for now, I'd stick with chicken for the first week. Puppies generally transition easier than adult dogs who've been on kibble a long time, but just to keep things simple.....chicken & chicken only for the first week. If he/she is doing well after the first week of chicken, you could try adding in some turkey.


Ok, thanks. 
And we just put a deposit down on a "she" today!  Very excited.
It'll be a while though... we're number 22 on the waiting list.


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## Northwoods10 (Nov 22, 2010)

nortknee said:


> Ok, thanks.
> And we just put a deposit down on a "she" today!  Very excited.
> It'll be a while though... we're number 22 on the waiting list.


Congrats!! So you did decide to go with a lab after all?! :smile:


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## nortknee (May 5, 2011)

Northwoods10 said:


> Congrats!! So you did decide to go with a lab after all?! :smile:


Yep!
I decided we'll manage my allergies in whatever ways necessary. They can't be that bad, or I'd have terrible reactions everytime I come into contact with dogs...which is alot. And I've never really noticed it much.

Who knows, they may go away entirely once I'm in Canada.


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## TuckersMom (Apr 27, 2011)

nortknee said:


> Yep!
> I decided we'll manage my allergies in whatever ways necessary. They can't be that bad, or I'd have terrible reactions everytime I come into contact with dogs...which is alot. And I've never really noticed it much.
> 
> Who knows, they may go away entirely once I'm in Canada.


 You will LOVE your lab! They are wonderful dogs! Of course, all dogs are wonderful, but you know what I mean :smile: Our first two dogs were labs.


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## Northwoods10 (Nov 22, 2010)

Awesome, congratulations. 

You'll love having a lab. They are such goofballs and so loyal to their humans!! Can't wait to hear when you get your baby and a name!! Any idea on color??


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## nortknee (May 5, 2011)

Northwoods10 said:


> Awesome, congratulations.
> 
> You'll love having a lab. They are such goofballs and so loyal to their humans!! Can't wait to hear when you get your baby and a name!! Any idea on color??


We asked for a chocolate female, and second choice was a black male. 
I'm so excited. I feel like an expectant mother...all I keep doing is looking at collars and vanity tags! 

I can't even begin to think of names...
Oh oh oh! Puppy excitement is too much!


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## DaneMama (Jun 27, 2008)

nortknee said:


> Ok, so for a puppies daily meals it would be something like this...
> 
> Monday Breakfast: Chicken Breast
> M Lunch: Chicken Back
> ...


Honestly....I wouldn't start out with such big portions or RMBs. And don't add turkey in so soon. I've found going slow with just chicken in the beginning allows you to add other proteins and RMBs in faster down the road. Unless your pup was weaned onto raw...which would be awesome!!!

I've raised several puppies on raw from 8 weeks old and chicken leg quarters are too big IMO. Turkey wings will be practically inedible for your pup at such a young age because the bones are so darn dense. Even my 120 pound Dane chew good and hard to get through those bones. Your pup would probably have a good time holding it down with her feet and ripping/tearing the meat off the bones! Which isn't terrible but so early on you want bone in meals only. 

I'd start out with chicken wings and drumsticks. You'll want to remove the skin and excess fat from them prior to feeding. If you pup has issues crunching through the bone you may need to smash it up with a hammer or kitchen mallet. I smashed up wings and drumsticks for several weeks for my two Dane puppies because they were having issues actually crunching through the bones. Eventually smashing less and less as time goes on and their jaws became stronger. Some people smash and others don't...I've found that it helps tremendously. 

This is what I would suggest doing instead: (estimating your pup will be about 15-20 pounds by the time you get her)

*Monday* (first day on raw)
AM meal: smashed, de-skinned chicken wing (I would only give one for the first meal regardless of how big your lab pup is- its better to start off slow)
Midday meal: smashed, de-skinned chicken wing (again, only one)
PM meal: smashed, de-skinned wing (again, only one)

*Tuesday*
AM meal: smashed, de-skinned chicken wings (try giving two if your pup did well with one the previous day)
Midday meal: smashed, de-skinned chicken wing (two)
PM meal: smashed, de-skinned wing (two)

*Wednesday*
AM meal: smashed, de-skinned chicken wings (try giving three if your pup did well with two the previous day)
Midday meal: smashed, de-skinned chicken wing (two)
PM meal: smashed, de-skinned wing (two)

*Thursday*
AM meal: smashed, de-skinned chicken wings (try giving three if your pup did well with two the previous day)
Midday meal: smashed, de-skinned chicken wing (two)
PM meal: smashed, de-skinned wing (three)

*Friday*
AM meal: smashed, de-skinned chicken wings (try giving three if your pup did well with two the previous day)
Midday meal: smashed, de-skinned chicken wing (two)
PM meal: smashed, de-skinned wing (three)

*Saturday*
AM meal: smashed, de-skinned chicken wings (try giving three if your pup did well with two the previous day)
Midday meal: smashed, de-skinned chicken wing (two)
PM meal: smashed, de-skinned wing (three)

*Sunday*
AM meal: smashed, de-skinned chicken wings (try giving three if your pup did well with two the previous day)
Midday meal: smashed, de-skinned chicken wing (two)
PM meal: smashed, de-skinned wing (three)

If at any time you notice very hard or crumbly stools on this schedule, stop trimming the skin and fat off which should help. The following week I suggest you do something similar but alternate meals of wings with drumsticks (which have more boneless meat on them). Then the following week I would add in boneless turkey alternating meals of bone in chicken. The only turkey bones that she will be able to handle are turkey necks which you can add in. Then continue slowly adding in boneless meats alternating with bone in chicken. Probably around 3-4 months of age you can add in pork rib bones, this is also the time when you can slowly switch her from 3 meals per day to 2. I eventually recommend feeding only once per day as its better overall with raw feeding. 

I hope this helps! Don't hesitate to ask any and all questions!


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## Northwoods10 (Nov 22, 2010)

nortknee said:


> We asked for a chocolate female, and second choice was a black male.
> I'm so excited. I feel like an expectant mother...all I keep doing is looking at collars and vanity tags!
> 
> I can't even begin to think of names...
> Oh oh oh! Puppy excitement is too much!


Natalie explained everything well, as always!! (above)

Oooooo a choco baby!!! Morgan is our first chocolate, her nickname is "Brown" :laugh:

Let me know if you want websites for cute collars, I have oodles of them!!! My dogs are all spoiled with too many collars!!! Dublins are our favorites!!


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## nortknee (May 5, 2011)

Northwoods10 said:


> Natalie explained everything well, as always!! (above)
> 
> Oooooo a choco baby!!! Morgan is our first chocolate, her nickname is "Brown" :laugh:
> 
> Let me know if you want websites for cute collars, I have oodles of them!!! My dogs are all spoiled with too many collars!!! Dublins are our favorites!!


Most definitely for the collar websites!
I'm kind of a shopaholic when it comes to dogs... 

Yeah, thank you Natalie for the explanation.  That helps immensely!
I wonder if I can just buy the wings instead of buying all the chickens...since ya know, only two wings come...per chicken...yeah you knew that...


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## Northwoods10 (Nov 22, 2010)

nortknee said:


> Most definitely for the collar websites!
> I'm kind of a shopaholic when it comes to dogs...
> 
> Yeah, thank you Natalie for the explanation.  That helps immensely!
> I wonder if I can just buy the wings instead of buying all the chickens...since ya know, only two wings come...per chicken...yeah you knew that...



Check out Etsy - Your place to buy and sell all things handmade, vintage, and supplies They have a ton of cute collars there!! 

Our favorite is https://www.dublindog.com/Dublin-Dog-Store/index.php?cPath=1 Their collars are expensive, but SO worth it with active dogs. We almost always prefer our dogs wear the dublins now....if they happen to get dirty or wet, the collars are easy to clean and dont stink!! We can take them to the lake with their collars on and not worry about them getting wet. If they get dirty just take them off and rinse them. Lifetime warranty too. :smile: Maybe a collar to invest in when your pup is full grown!


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## nortknee (May 5, 2011)

I think we've decided on Duff if we get a black male.

I'm so bad at picking girl names...
I like one syllable names, for some reason.

We can only hope I have boy children.


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