# interesting read on parvo vacc. this is stuff vets never told me



## taem (Oct 29, 2011)

The woman who runs the raw pet food store in town is a real asset to the community, for example when she found out one of my neighbors was giving her dog cheap treats from the supermarket, she offered to give my neighbor free all natural treats from her store. She gives away a bimonthly magazine called "Dogs Naturally" to her regular customers, despite the $5.95 cover price. Current issue (Mar/Apr 2012) is about nutrition, but last issue had an article about parvo vaccinations I found fascinating.

Article is called "Parvovirus... Everything You Wanted to Know, and Some Things You Wish You Didn't". Authors are Patricia Jordan About The Author - Mark of the Beast, Catherine O'Driscoll Canine Health Concern - Putting your dog’s health first, and Dana Scott Fallriver Labrador Retrievers

Some of the tidbits:

1) 28% of vaccinated pups and 11% of vaccinated adult dogs will still get parvo.

2) For puppies who get parvo, the survival rate is 85%. Of the 15% fatality rate, the cause of death is not always parvo. Dogs who were not vaccinated against parvo have a higher survival rate if they do get parvo than dogs who were vaccinated, because the vacc generally suppresses the immune system permanently. 

3) The parvo vacc increases risk to a bunch of things, including cancer, Addison's, hyperthyroidism, Cushings, heart disease, goes on and on and on. Death rate from cancer far, far outpaces death rate from parvo.

4) My dogs' vets (not the current one, who is very good on this sort of thing, but past ones) always told me you need several rounds of shots for the immunity to take hold. I was told, first shot "primes" the system, the second shot creates the immunity. This is not true, it's a one shot deal, the vacc either works or it doesn't (the medical term is "seroconversion"). The presence of maternal antibodies from colostum linger for a variable period up to 26 weeks and inhibit seroconversion, so you do multiple shots so one of the applications will take hold. Vanguard's test showed that administering the vacc at 6 weeks worked 52% of the time; at 9 weeks 88%; at 12 weeks, 100%.

The authors' point here is that the early shots are seriously questionable, and they call parvo vacc at 6-8 weeks a "high risk, low value proposition." They also note that 8 weeks is a common time for pups to go to their new homes, and the resultant stress makes it less likely for the vaccine to take hold.

5) Not a parvo specific issue, but 160,000 cats a year develop terminal cancer at vaccination injection sites. An Italian study hypothesized a similar vaccine-induced cancer link in dogs. And we already knew the Salk Polio vaccine can create an inheritable cancer in humans.

6) There is a titer test that can determine whether the parvo vacc has taken hold. But it is more expensive than giving multiple applications of the vacc.

7) The fewer antigens there are in a single shot, the better the odds of the vacc taking hold. But there is no monovalent distemper vacc, so the best option you have is a parvo-distemper shot. (Schering-Plough is one commmonly used one.) 

So what do the authors recommend? They view not getting the shot at all and focusing on proper nutrition and especially keeping an eye open for parasitical infections such as giardia and coccidia, and treating those with something like diatomaceous earth, as a viable option.

If you do get the parvo vacc, wait until at least 9 weeks, and you'd be better off tightly controlling socialization and getting the vacc even later than that, say 12 weeks. The unequivocally advise against getting the parvo vacc at 6 or 8 weeks. And if you can afford it, rather than getting multiple applications of the vaccine, get one and run the titer test to see if you need another.


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## bridget246 (Oct 26, 2011)

Thank you. I regret the vacc Bridget has been given. Do these people know what they are doing by trying to the majority by trying to prevent future problems within a minority?


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## Liz (Sep 27, 2010)

Thank you for posting that - I often feel a little lonely spouting off on my soapbox. It is funny because now when my friend who breeds shelties vaccinates her litters I ban her and her pups from my house for a month. I just won't expose my animals to such heavy shedding of the bacteria/virus. She gets insulted trying to tell me my pups are the disease carriers when she literally inject the virus into hers. I just laugh and say I will meet you at "Red Robin" for lunch.


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## taem (Oct 29, 2011)

I'm just steamed this is the first time I'm finding out about things like, the vacc itself does not take multiple shots. My vet right now is very good about this sort of thing -- she recommends against lepto vacc unequivocally, and is real leery of bordetella vacc, will only give that if you plan on a lifestyle for your dog that puts him at risk for it -- and she never told me. And I am sure she knows, I am sure every vet knows.

Probably what's going on is, vets figure, well 52% seroconversion rate at 6 weeks means half of pups will have a good defense vs parvo and that's a good thing, and we'll worry about possible consequences if/when they occur. I'm not saying that's an illegitimate view, with what we now know about the importance of socialization and all that. BUT INFORM US DAMMIT.

Anyway my pup got parvo/distemper at 9 weeks from the breeder, who is a little suspicious of vaccs, so I guess that's better than 6 weeks or 8. Pup's "second" (by the usual vet schedule of 3) parvo/distemper shot is scheduled for tomorrow. She will be 13 weeks, so the age is ok. I have to think hard about this. I might want to do preventive care with nutrition and Ttouch rather than the shot, but she's already had the first so maybe I should just do the second shot. If I do the second shot I am definitely paying for the titer test rather than just going with a third shot. Unless it's a ton of money and I can't afford it :\ And I'm pretty sure I don't want the boosters, which don't boost anything, they are simply additional injections in case seroconversion did not occur, something I forgot to mention in the post.

I do have to worry about this because I live in a very high immigration area, and not to be racist (I'm an immigrant), but stuff like spay/neuter and vaccs, that's really a white man's game. Folks from countries like Mexico or Vietnam, stuff like that isn't automatic. If I lived in some hoity toity small town in Connecticut I would definitely skip these vaccs.

For sure I'll have a long talk with the vet about this tomorrow. I have a mini poodle and they are at high risk for Addison's and cancer. Fully half of std poodles have cancer when they die.


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

and i've gone from vaccinating for everything to vaccinating the puppy shots and first round to probably not vaccinating at all, with liz on speed dial.


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## Maxy24 (Mar 5, 2011)

Vaccines are still something I'm very torn about. They do work, they do have risks, they can also fail. I'm sure more dogs would get parvo if everyone ceased vaccinating. I like the idea of waiting until the pups are older so that only one shot is needed.

I also wish vets would make titers more known and perhaps find a way to offer them at a more reasonable price.
I wish vets would stop giving huge amounts of vaccine at once. My aunt and uncle's dog went to the vet last week and received the following vaccines: Kennel Cough, Influenza, Rabies, and Distemper. The vet wanted to give her Lymes too. That's a lot of shots on the same day and I'd guess it causes quite the immune reaction.
I wish vets would make people aware of the risks and the benefits of each vaccine and have a good chat about which shots are really needed and not needed for the dog/cat in question but of course leave the final decision up to the owner.

I do remember being rather shocked when I learned that they started giving cats their vaccinations in the leg so that if a carcinoma developed the leg could be amputated and the cancer completely removed. Obviously it was happening frequently enough for them to begin that protocol. Though they have the non-adjuvant rabies vaccine now, so that makes me feel a bit better. It rabies were not required by law I wouldn't vaccinate the cats at all, they don't have contact with other cats, I wash up when I return from the shelter, the dog is vaccinated against rabies and distemper.


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## Liz (Sep 27, 2010)

Part of the issue for me was we have been taught to fear everything. Our bodies can fight off viruses and such - we are made to and so are our dogs. If parvo, rabies, etc were so life threatening there would not be a wild canid in existence today. I have worked with pups with parvo and distemper (not my own) and the unvaccinated ones bounced back way quicker than the pups who had been "current" on their vaccines. We scare easy and sometimes you just have to get sick and then get better and not be afraid anymore. Parvo and distemper are not so scary for me anymore after working with these friends pups to pull them through. JMHO


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## bridget246 (Oct 26, 2011)

Liz said:


> Thank you for posting that - I often feel a little lonely spouting off on my soapbox. It is funny because now when my friend who breeds shelties vaccinates her litters I ban her and her pups from my house for a month. I just won't expose my animals to such heavy shedding of the bacteria/virus. She gets insulted trying to tell me my pups are the disease carriers when she literally inject the virus into hers. I just laugh and say I will meet you at "Red Robin" for lunch.


If I had my way you'd be giving a permanent soap box from which to speak from.


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## taem (Oct 29, 2011)

Maxy24 said:


> Vaccines are still something I'm very torn about. They do work, they do have risks, they can also fail. I'm sure more dogs would get parvo if everyone ceased vaccinating. I like the idea of waiting until the pups are older so that only one shot is needed.


Yeah. I would stress heavily if I just skipped the shot. I just don't have the confidence in my knowledge of canine nutrition and general well being issues to go a wholly natural way. I wish I did. The authors go into natural ways of treating parvo if it does occur though, and that too is an eye opener. The impression I had been given is that if you don't get the vaccine your puppy WILL get parvo, and SHE WILL [email protected]! But the authors state: "It is important to remember that Parvovirus is essentially dysentery: solve the diarrhea and you will cure the parvo." And if you think of it as dysentery, you would never get a dysentery vaccination (unless you were living in an African refugee camp), you would treat it if it occurred.



> I also wish vets would make titers more known and perhaps find a way to offer them at a more reasonable price.


The key problem with the titer, other than cost which I don't think is too much, is that you have to wait 3 weeks after the vacc before you can run that test. With socialization needs and all, that's a long time.



> I do remember being rather shocked when I learned that they started giving cats their vaccinations in the leg so that if a carcinoma developed the leg could be amputated and the cancer completely removed. Obviously it was happening frequently enough for them to begin that protocol.


The article notes an AVMA commission which recommended injections in the tail to make the amputation even easier and less life-impacting. But the overall AVMA response to the vacc/cancer link in cats was to say we should study which cats are getting the cancer so we can identify the cats we shouldn't vaccinate, but in the meanwhile, keep on truckin with the pharmaceutials.


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## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

If it were humans who were getting cancer at a vaccination site, would we still be giving the vaccinations or would they be finding out what's in that shot that's causing it and doing something different?

Amazing how we are so cavalier with our pets. Oh, just give it in their leg so it will be easy to amputate. That's insane.


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## Maxy24 (Mar 5, 2011)

> The impression I had been given is that if you don't get the vaccine your puppy WILL get parvo, and SHE WILL [email protected]! But the authors state: "It is important to remember that Parvovirus is essentially dysentery: solve the diarrhea and you will cure the parvo." And if you think of it as dysentery, you would never get a dysentery vaccination (unless you were living in an African refugee camp), you would treat it if it occurred.


That's true too, I don't know how it happened since I don't remember when I first learned of Parvo, but in my head it was AWFUL, a death sentence, almost like Ebola. But yes, dehydration is what kills them. I remember someone on another forum talking about how they used to give puppies with parvo a marijuana tea. The marijuana kept them from feeling sick, so they didn't stop eating and drinking, so they got better. That said, it is still a dangerous often fatal disease in puppies. I certainly would do whatever I could to make sure my pup didn't get it, especially since I don't have any pot lying around lol.




> The key problem with the titer, other than cost which I don't think is too much, is that you have to wait 3 weeks after the vacc before you can run that test.


Yeah I get that in the case of puppy parvo vaccines, I was meaning more in general, like when I bring my adult dog to the vet and he says it's time for a distemper vaccine. I could get a titer and find out if that's necessary or it can wait a while. We vaccinate for it every three years, but it's possible that it could last several years longer than that, we do it to be safe, because the absolute shortest it will last is three years. In their minds it's better to vaccinate too much than not enough and have the dog get the disease.

Puppy shots honestly don't worry me very much, I don't plan to ever not give them to my puppies if I ever get more (though I would try to space them and not give ones for diseases like kennel cough), it's the shots we give over and over and over and over that I worry about.


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

i hadn't heard of parvo until i got older.....and then puppies were dropping right and left...and if there were another dog in the house, that dog died too and the parvo could live forever....ok. i'm exaggerating a little bit, but i don't remember hearing about parvo when i was a kid..

distemper was another story....so we got shots for our puppies and every year thereafter...

i read my yahoo lists and i'm scared to death....i really am...they have their colloidal silver generators and parvaid and a host of homeopathic and natural ways to fix and heal..

and i have a puppy that i'd be afraid to let out of the house for the first year...

but i will...because this vaccinosis scares me more than taking my chances with parvo and distemper.


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## Liz (Sep 27, 2010)

Honestly my babies go everywhere. They go to church, to Mud Bay, some private pet stores, other homes, the lake near us, they visit our bus kids in really poor areas of town and they even ride our church busses as mascots. They have gone to conformation class and shows and we have not had any issues. There was even some canine flu going around and many dogs were down with parvo like symptoms - these pups just bounce through everything. I have lost supposedly current on vaccine litters who had never left my house - spent a ton on vet care and not one pup survived. Never again in this household.


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## chowder (Sep 7, 2008)

If you are interested in finding out more about the science behind the new vaccination research, check out the work of Dr. Jean Dodd's and Dr. Ronald Schultz. Here are two links to start, there are many more if you google them. 


HEMOPET.HTM
Lifelong Immunity – Why Vets Are Pushing Back | Dogs Naturally Magazine


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## xchairity_casex (Oct 8, 2011)

See this kind of stuff frightens me as i plan on getting a puppy sometime in the (hopefully) near future.
the breeder DOES vaccinate the "normal" reccomended vaccin schedual so does that mean i SHOULD continue on with the schedual (9 weeks,and 12 weeks?) or should i NOT and hope for the best?
we had a a german shepard puppy many many many years ago i was only about 7 years old he got parvo and it was BAD he had not been vaccinated at all and he nearly died the vet gave us the medicine for him at no cost becuase he was certian he would die we had to give him an injection every 2 hours all night long (this was many years ago dont know the protocol now for treating parvo)
he did survive but it was very very scary and i hate the thought of messing around with it. and if i get a puppy i want her to be a certified therapy dog so she NEEDS to be able to get out and about while she is young for socielization of all kinds (kids,cats,livestock,elderly,large crowds,other dogs)
im terrably confused


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## taem (Oct 29, 2011)

chowder said:


> If you are interested in finding out more about the science behind the new vaccination research, check out the work of Dr. Jean Dodd's and Dr. Ronald Schultz. Here are two links to start, there are many more if you google them.
> 
> HEMOPET.HTM
> Lifelong Immunity – Why Vets Are Pushing Back | Dogs Naturally Magazine


That magazine is where the article is from, like i mentioned in post, I really like it, the current issue has a compilation of statements from vets on vaccines, sparked by the case of a vet whose daughter was brain damaged by MMR vaccination. It includes comments like this:

*When I received my training... I was not informed about possible short term or long term adverse affects of vaccination. Once in practice, I observed immediate Type 1 hypersensitivity reactions (anaphylaxis, wheals, vomiting and diarrhea). I've also been able to correlate seizures and autoimmune haemolytic aneamia with vaccination."* Dr Arthur Freedman

*I emphatically do not believe I was taught adequately with regard to the vaccination issue... I was taught you needed to vaccinate every year to boost animals' immune systems. There are no studies to show that annual boosters are ever indicated or that there is any science to support annual vaccines..."* Dr Stephen Blake

*Vaccines were designed to help stimulate immunity. Current research is proving just the opposite however... I'm able to say that arthritis, skin disease/allergies, all autoimmune diseases, and cancer can be correlated with vaccination."* Dr Jeff Feinman

And so forth. The woman who presentd the compilation of vet statements has formed an online group to advocate for better information on vaccines, her site is Pet Parents' Action Group - Home. It's mostly UK activity for now I believe, but she wants to have a presence state-side. Maybe Liz should get in touch with this woman, Catherine O'Driscoll.

Also, the vet I switched to follows the Jean Dodd vaccination protocol, it's one of the reasons I switched to her.


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## Liz (Sep 27, 2010)

We have corresponded. She was influential in helping me learn so I could make my decisions. :tongue1:


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## taem (Oct 29, 2011)

Liz said:


> We have corresponded. She was influential in helping me learn so I could make my decisions. :tongue1:


Oh that's fantastic, that's like an internet version of me setting two people up on a date and they get married, almost.


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## brandypup (Jan 23, 2012)

I love Dogs Naturally Magazine. hey are also on facebook and send out their new articles as well.


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## brandypup (Jan 23, 2012)

xchairity_casex said:


> See this kind of stuff frightens me as i plan on getting a puppy sometime in the (hopefully) near future.
> the breeder DOES vaccinate the "normal" reccomended vaccin schedual so does that mean i SHOULD continue on with the schedual (9 weeks,and 12 weeks?) or should i NOT and hope for the best?
> we had a a german shepard puppy many many many years ago i was only about 7 years old he got parvo and it was BAD he had not been vaccinated at all and he nearly died the vet gave us the medicine for him at no cost becuase he was certian he would die we had to give him an injection every 2 hours all night long (this was many years ago dont know the protocol now for treating parvo)
> he did survive but it was very very scary and i hate the thought of messing around with it. and if i get a puppy i want her to be a certified therapy dog so she NEEDS to be able to get out and about while she is young for socielization of all kinds (kids,cats,livestock,elderly,large crowds,other dogs)
> im terrably confused


I know!! thanksfully I am finding the the EM breeders actually follow low to zero vaccines and have it in their contract as well. In case you havn't seen this it's excallant interview with Dr Schultz. I hope it works, site blocked here at work so I had to try to find the link. 
www.google.com/url?q=http://www.you...YQFjAC&usg=AFQjCNFu0plA3W1VdZz7AK3KfZFYeIboQQ


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## Liz (Sep 27, 2010)

Personally I would not buy from a breeder who follows traditional vaccination schedules and use a myriad of other chemicals on their dogs. It shows a lack of knowledge - this is their business and I feel growth and research is part of that. If I were buying a pup for pet I would consider a very minimal vaccination schedule (not really - but as a pet puppy buyer). Personally we don't even use a stud dog that has been vaccinated.


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## brandypup (Jan 23, 2012)

> I do remember being rather shocked when I learned that they started giving cats their vaccinations in the leg so that if a carcinoma developed the leg could be amputated and the cancer completely removed. Obviously it was happening frequently enough for them to begin that protocol. Though they have the non-adjuvant rabies vaccine now, so that makes me feel a bit better. It rabies were not required by law I wouldn't vaccinate the cats at all, they don't have contact with other cats, I wash up when I return from the shelter, the dog is vaccinated against rabies and distemper.


My Bones was a VAS cat. From her 2nd rabies vaccination. Vaccinated Oct/08 died Aug 2010. It's heart breaking. Her lump was too high ont he hip to amputate. Chemo didn't work. I put a perfectly hatlhy in all ways cat down becuase of one shot. It's not rare and even if it were does that make it acceptable? No.. One is not zero. 

The new vaccine Purvax still give fibrosarcoma, although it's safer it's not 100% safer. It's also only a yearly vacicne because in their 3 year studies althoguh 100% of the cats checked at 3 years were 100% immune not enough control cats died of rabies to say it was effective. 

I am a member on the VAS boards, it's heartbreaking to see daily the new members, the peopel who can't afford treatments and the daily deaths all becuase of a vaccine. It's totaly unacceptable imho. 

It doesn't help that at the time I asked my Holistic vet for the canary pox vaccine. She told me this vaccine was safe. I have to let go of my anger and hate daily or will will destroy me. I fight everyday, every morning. And I cry every time I think about it. - Bones' if your intrested. It's not completedd and there are allot fo errors becuase I can't work on it very long. Ialso called that same vet last week (no I dont use them any longer) and they still refuse to carry purvax. A holistic vet, refuses... to carry a safer vaccine. Tears.








her tumor


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## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

That is so sad. It made me cry. 

And people wonder why I don't trust pet food people, vets, anyone who stands to make a buck off of our pets - who we love, but so many of them obviously don't give a crap.


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## lily (May 16, 2011)

Liz said:


> Part of the issue for me was we have been taught to fear everything. Our bodies can fight off viruses and such - we are made to and so are our dogs. If parvo, rabies, etc were so life threatening there would not be a wild canid in existence today. I have worked with pups with parvo and distemper (not my own) and the unvaccinated ones bounced back way quicker than the pups who had been "current" on their vaccines. We scare easy and sometimes you just have to get sick and then get better and not be afraid anymore. Parvo and distemper are not so scary for me anymore after working with these friends pups to pull them through. JMHO


have to say i really enjoy your posts,i know when i read them they are always full of wisdom and advice ,thankyou,karen


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## chowder (Sep 7, 2008)

xellil said:


> That is so sad. It made me cry.
> 
> And people wonder why I don't trust pet food people, vets, anyone who stands to make a buck off of our pets - who we love, but so many of them obviously don't give a crap.


I was in tears too. I had 6 dogs die from cancer. Each one was progressively younger. 12, 11, 10, 10, 9, 8. You have to think that all these cancers in dogs are vaccine related, in addition to improper food and constant bombardment with chemicals and medications. 

If nothing else, it has taught me to research and learn as much as I can. Rocky and Shade are reaping the benefits of everything I am learning and hopefully they will have much healthier lives.


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## Sprocket (Oct 4, 2011)

The more I read things like this, the more I dread working as a Vet tech. It is already hard for me to hold my tongue but if I'm forced to give false information...I don't know how that's going to work out.


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## chowder (Sep 7, 2008)

Sprocket said:


> The more I read things like this, the more I dread working as a Vet tech. It is already hard for me to hold my tongue but if I'm forced to give false information...I don't know how that's going to work out.


I lasted 6 years as a vet tech. Then I changed professions entirely. Well, pretty much ran fleeing from the job. :smile: I wouldn't even take my own pets to the last place I worked at and pretty much disagreed with everything the vets there did. So i decided it was time to get out of the business.


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## Sprocket (Oct 4, 2011)

chowder said:


> I lasted 6 years as a vet tech. Then I changed professions entirely. Well, pretty much ran fleeing from the job. :smile: I wouldn't even take my own pets to the last place I worked at and pretty much disagreed with everything the vets there did. So i decided it was time to get out of the business.


I don't plan to do it for my entire life. I just need it to get where I want to go


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## chowder (Sep 7, 2008)

Sprocket said:


> I don't plan to do it for my entire life. I just need it to get where I want to go


I'm sure it's a lot better now. I started out making $2.85 an hour working for a vet who made us wash out needles and re-sterilize them because he was so cheap. We got to throw them away when they were too dull to stick into a dogs skin anymore! By the time I quit I was up to $6.50 an hour but we were still required to do every extra service we could on a dog so we could add extra charges to the bill. (different state, different vet, same old same old stuff though).


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## Sprocket (Oct 4, 2011)

chowder said:


> I'm sure it's a lot better now. I started out making $2.85 an hour working for a vet who made us wash out needles and re-sterilize them because he was so cheap. We got to throw them away when they were too dull to stick into a dogs skin anymore! By the time I quit I was up to $6.50 an hour but we were still required to do every extra service we could on a dog so we could add extra charges to the bill. (different state, different vet, same old same old stuff though).


That is disgusting. Something like that would have soured it for me as well!


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## taem (Oct 29, 2011)

Well my puppy got her 2nd DHPP vacc yesterday. I agonized about it but in the end, several factors persuaded me.
(1) She'd already gotten her first.
(2) I trust my vet.
(3) I've only become aware of these issues recently, I don't have the time to research to a comfort point. I wish I did. I sure will be reading up more on this before I get another pup, which I plan to. I regret spending time reading the likes of Ian Dunbar rather than looking into this.
(4) This area (Salinas, only 20 minutes away) is pretty high on parvo incidents.

I did chat with the vet for about an hour though before Syd got her shot. Syd's vet does the schedule of 3 DHPP vaccs at 4 week intervals, and then one booster at 1 year. And then she's done, no more boosters, not annually, not every 3 years, she's done. She agrees with the article in saying there is zero scientific evidence of any benefit from those boosters, and quite a bit of clinical data on possible downsides. She's not certain the titer test is conclusive on whether seroconversion has occurred, if she were she would offer it up-front as an option (it does cost more), whereas the 3 shot + 1 booster guarantees seroconversion. She does know vets who think the titer test is conclusive though.

Syd's vet only does DHPP and rabies, she recommends against every other vacc, except maybe bordetella in rare cases (if you're an animals shelter worker and you plan to take your dog to work every day for example), and there she will tell you the seroconversion rate isn't that great, you're certainly getting the downside and may not be getting the upside.



chowder said:


> You have to think that all these cancers in dogs are vaccine related, in addition to improper food and constant bombardment with chemicals and medications.


I think the problem with vaccines and most meds is that the benefits are quantifiable, but the downsides less so. I would think it's virtually impossible to directly link a vaccination to cancer, unless it's at the injection point. But I totally agree with you, there seems to be a mounting pile of evidence that vaccines cause/exacerbate chronic inflammation, which is a big contributor to cancer. And we know for a fact these vaccines suppress the immune system permanently, and massively so in the short term. I wonder why our fed gov funds research into crawdads on treadmills, but not canine health.



Liz said:


> Personally I would not buy from a breeder who follows traditional vaccination schedules and use a myriad of other chemicals on their dogs.


I didn't even know dog vaccs were a problem until my breeder sat down with me and recommended I not get certain vaccs before I brought puppy home. She also doesn't do the first DHPP vacc until 9 weeks, she might wait longer except the pups start going to their homes at around 10 weeks.



brandypup said:


> I love Dogs Naturally Magazine. hey are also on facebook and send out their new articles as well.


Isn't it great? Sarah at Raw Connections (want to give her a shoutout because she's awesome, The Raw Connection) gives it to me for free but I'm considering subscribing, for the value I get out of it, someone else shouldn't be paying for me, and Sarah could give that copy to someone else. I don't accept everything in that mag at face value though; quite a bit of it has a "true believer" feel which always makes me think I'm not getting the full picture. But even then it raises issues to consider.


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## Dude and Bucks Mamma (May 14, 2011)

This is something I agonize over too. Last spring, Dude was given his first vaccinations ever at 7.5 years because I was still a sheeple who thought that it was best to have our dogs vaccinated to "protect" them from everything. My parents never bothered getting him into the vet so when he came with me to WA he got everything. Not kennel cough and I don't think he got bordatella but he got everything else. He has an appointment for the 14th to get nothing but his rabies vaccine.

Buck got all of the normal puppy shots from his breeder and we finished with the rest of them and soon after is when I started learning about vaccinations and the risks. He is due for his rabies vaccine in August and will also be getting nothing but rabies. 

We vaccinate for rabies because:

1) My husband is in the Navy and, just in case we were to need to move to another country, we want them to be up to date at all times
2) Our state, county, and neighborhood require it. 
3) I don't feel that society is intelligent enough to have unvaccinated dogs in their midst. More and more stories keep popping up about families who's dogs have been euthanized prematurely because the dog was in the vicinity of an animal who may or may not have had rabies and I feel that stupid people are more of a danger to my dog than the disease itself.

As far as breeders go... I am getting a xoloitzcuintli next spring and I have limited options. I don't know exactly what my breeder's protocol for vaccines is yet but it is on the list of things to discuss. I would love to wait a few weeks to get the parvo vaccination and am still on the fence about puppy shots as a whole but, ultimately, it will be up to him for the first 8-12 weeks because I don't have a whole lot of options when it comes to breeders. Between now and then I will be avidly researching about puppy vaccines and will be discussing it with my breeder so that I can make the best choices for my puppy under the circumstances.

I wonder, though. Do wild/feral canids have different natural immunities to parvo? Xolos are a primitive, natural breed so I wonder if they differ from something like a Chihuahua or a cocker spaniel when it comes to things like this...


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## brandypup (Jan 23, 2012)

I wonder, though. Do wild/feral canids have different natural immunities to parvo? Xolos are a primitive, natural breed so I wonder if they differ from something like a Chihuahua or a cocker spaniel when it comes to things like this... 

I wonder if titer the mom dog would show any insight to that or titering the puppies? Dr R Shultz tlaks about that in that interview (on youtube)


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