# Harry is licking his chops/lips excessively.



## kevin bradley

Keep noticing that Harry goes through these periods of excessive licking..his lips and his chops. 

I've looked it up online but it seems like it could be anything from food to seizures to a bad tooth to nothing. I will say that he has just started a cycle of TOTW Bison.

I'm going to call the Vet this morning. Getting kind of worried.


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## wags

Kevin! No Orijen??????? I thought you didnt like TOTW! Hope your pups ok! Don't have a clue on this one! Good Luck!


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## malluver1005

Aspen went through a period of licking his lips a lot about a month ago. Lasted maybe a week. It caused his muzzle to get salivary stains. It's been a while now and the stains are fading away...


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## DaneMama

Best of luck and keep us posted!


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## luvMyBRT

I have noticed two things when Lucky does this:

1. She's about ready to throw up. I think she salivates a lot before vomiting and it makes her lick her lips. Sometimes she throws up and sometimes her stomach settles back down and she doesn't. Could Harry be getting ready to vomit, but doesn't?

2. She has something stuck in her teeth. A while back she had a blade of grass stuck in between her teeth and it was making her lick her lips like crazy. I looked in her mouth, saw it, and pulled it out. Problem solved. Could Harry have something stuck in his teeth?

Good luck, hope it turns out to be nothing. :smile:


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## kevin bradley

thanks guys. I just talked to my VET. He wants to go ahead and do a teeth cleaning for Harry. Its been about 18 months since his last cleaning. It does check out based on my research... it could be tooth related. He DOES need a cleaning and I'm hoping it helps. 

Wags,

Never was a fan of Diamond... but I do think TOTW is a decent food and with the recent commitment of no ethoxyquin, I thought I'd give it a shot just as a rotational thing. 

NOTE-In no way am I blaming the food. I honestly don't know what it is. Outside of the licking, Harry's great. No appetite issues... he DID vomit once a couple weeks ago but nothing since. I only mentioned TOTW because thats about all I can think of. 

I pray he's ok. I love him more than anyone/anything I've ever had in my life. I would spend every dime I have on him.


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## RawFedDogs

I'm with Sara. Most likely an upset tummy but could be something in teeth. You know what to do to keep him from needing dentals. :biggrin:

*ETA:* You could even switch today and forego the dental you have scheduled.


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## DaneMama

This is the perfect opportunity to bite the bullet and switch to raw Kevin. Instead of spending a couple hundred on a dental, spend it on a freezer and some meat and do the proactive thing!


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## kevin bradley

danemama08 said:


> This is the perfect opportunity to bite the bullet and switch to raw Kevin. Instead of spending a couple hundred on a dental, spend it on a freezer and some meat and do the proactive thing!




help me out Nat... what do you mean? Are you saying if you feed raw/real food, you never have to get their teeth cleaned?


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## DaneMama

kevin bradley said:


> help me out Nat... what do you mean? Are you saying if you feed raw/real food, you never have to get their teeth cleaned?


That's exactly what I'm saying. Most raw fed dogs don't ever have to get dental cleanings. The only dental work raw fed dogs would ever need is if they happen to break a tooth, but that is why we take precautions on what we feed to prevent broken teeth from happening in the first place. Bailey my Dane had a dental cleaning at 18 months for bad tartar. I switched to raw a few months later and her teeth are sparkling white to this day (over two years later). The dental health aspect is one of the biggest perks to raw feeding, which promotes TOTAL BODY HEALTH and not just sustenance....


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## kevin bradley

ok, I'm with you.

But even if I go that route, won't I have to at least get them clean before starting?


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## DaneMama

kevin bradley said:


> ok, I'm with you.
> 
> But even if I go that route, won't I have to at least get them clean before starting?


It depends on how bad his teeth are. I assume you won't because you keep up with routine dental work. 

Any loose teeth? What "grade" is the tartar/dental disease? What kind of dog is Harry? How old?


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## kevin bradley

I try, Nat. He absolutely hates it though. 

Harry is about 8 years old... never known exactly what breed... likely Border Collie and some Chow mixed in. 

I don't think his teeth are horrible.... but probably not great, either.


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## cast71

you could also go raw/kibble hybrid diet:biggrin: I'll feed raw for a whole week and than switch back to kibble. My dog is use to switching back and forth. There was a little upset stomach issues in the beginning but no problems anymore. I even feed organ meat. You will get the dental benefit. Another benefit is you do not have to have an extra freezer. When I can get some cheap meats, I fill up whatever freezer space I have in my freezer. Than I will start raw until the meats gone. Than I switch back to kibble until I can find more cheap meats;0) Another benefit is if you go away, you can switch back to kibble.


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## DaneMama

kevin bradley said:


> I try, Nat. He absolutely hates it though.
> 
> Harry is about 8 years old... never known exactly what breed... likely Border Collie and some Chow mixed in.
> 
> I don't think his teeth are horrible.... but probably not great, either.


Which should give you even more motivation to switch and prevent him from being put through another dental cleaning. 

He might have a difficult time "learning" to eat real foods again, but with patience and persistence....he will catch on and grow to love raw foods. Good thing you have us here to help you every step of the way....Start asking Questions!

ETA: I don't recommend mixing raw and kibble in any way because most dogs can't handle switching back and forth in my experiences here. You can definitely try it but if you do that is outside of most raw feeders realm of expertise.


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## luvMyBRT

I switched my 11 year old Pointer to raw. Just imagine 11 years of kibble fed teeth....she too was in need of a dental.

Not anymore. :biggrin: Four months on raw and her teeth are gorgeous if I don't say so myself.


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## cast71

danemama08 said:


> ETA: I don't recommend mixing raw and kibble in any way because most dogs can't handle switching back and forth in my experiences here. You can definitely try it but if you do that is outside of most raw feeders realm of expertise.


It's not really that complicated. Think of it as the same as when a dog transitions from kibble to raw. They go through digestive upsets. Same thing would happen if you were on raw for a long time and went back to kibble. That was my situation. For someone who is just starting raw, I would start basic stuff like chicken backs and quaters until they get use to it. Than switching back and forth to kibble shouldn't cause an upset. It's just a matter of the dog getting use to it. It might take much longer to graduate to different meats and organs, but you can still get there. Also for this to work you have to keep alternating every week or two or you will run into digestive upsets. I do understand that raw feeders do not like this concept. I just thought I would offer another alternative. Hope I'm not offending anybody.


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## DaneMama

I'm not confused about how it's done, I just think it's a lot harder on the dog to be constantly switching back and forth. In my experience on this forum and several others, is that mixing the two in any way is just too hard on most dogs. It may work for your dog (which is awesome) but more likely than not most dogs won't do well on it. 

Different digestive enzymes are needed for raw foods than compared to kibble foods so to switch back and forth from one to the other is hard on a dogs system. They have to produce different enzymes which is taxing and can decrease the body's efficiency at digesting foods.


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## kevin bradley

guys, I already give them alot of real chicken... I cook it up, its not raw. But they are getting both real chicken and dry kibble.


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## DaneMama

kevin bradley said:


> guys, I already give them alot of real chicken... I cook it up, its not raw. But they are getting both real chicken and dry kibble.


Raw chicken might as well be a completely different food source compared to cooked chicken. Nutritionally they are different, structurally they are different and molecularly they are different. Cooking changes a lot about the structure of peoteins and other nutrients. You basically cannot compare the two when talking about feeding a dog.


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## cast71

danemama08 said:


> Different digestive enzymes are needed for raw foods than compared to kibble foods so to switch back and forth from one to the other is hard on a dogs system. They have to produce different enzymes which is taxing and can decrease the body's efficiency at digesting foods.


I do understand that dogs need different enzymes to process each food. Shouldn't the dog have those enzymes, if I am switching it up every couple of weeks? If it's harder on his system, I can see no visual sign of it. Please do not take this post as I am arguing. I am actually interested in this topic and trying to learn more about it:smile: I also appologize to Kevin for hijacking his thread:biggrin:


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## cast71

danemama08 said:


> Raw chicken might as well be a completely different food source compared to cooked chicken. Nutritionally they are different, structurally they are different and molecularly they are different. Cooking changes a lot about the structure of peoteins and other nutrients. You basically cannot compare the two when talking about feeding a dog.


I also agree that cooked chicken is a totally different animal ahahahaha It's still excellent for supplementing a kibble diet:wink:


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## DaneMama

cast71 said:


> I do understand that dogs need different enzymes to process each food. Shouldn't the dog have those enzymes, if I am switching it up every couple of weeks? If it's harder on his system, I can see no visual sign of it. Please do not take this post as I am arguing. I am actually interested in this topic and trying to learn more about it:smile: I also appologize to Kevin for hijacking his thread:biggrin:


We aren't arguing, just debating :wink:

It's definitely less stressful on the dog to switch it up every few weeks instead of everyday like some people do. But I still don't see why it's better for the dog to give half kibble and half raw? Why not just feed all raw since its more appropriate and nutrious for the dog?


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## Cliffdog

danemama08 said:


> Raw chicken might as well be a completely different food source compared to cooked chicken. Nutritionally they are different, structurally they are different and molecularly they are different. Cooking changes a lot about the structure of peoteins and other nutrients. You basically cannot compare the two when talking about feeding a dog.


Not to mention that if you're feeding cooked chicken, the dog is (hopefully!) not getting any bones because cooked bones splinter. Raw bones do much of the teeth cleaning when feeding raw.


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## kevin bradley

cast71 said:


> I do understand that dogs need different enzymes to process each food. Shouldn't the dog have those enzymes, if I am switching it up every couple of weeks? If it's harder on his system, I can see no visual sign of it. Please do not take this post as I am arguing. I am actually interested in this topic and trying to learn more about it:smile: I also appologize to Kevin for hijacking his thread:biggrin:


Cast,

Don't apologize for anything. 

We can all learn more when we just let posts evolve.


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## cast71

danemama08 said:


> We aren't arguing, just debating :wink:
> 
> It's definitely less stressful on the dog to switch it up every few weeks instead of everyday like some people do. But I still don't see why it's better for the dog to give half kibble and half raw? Why not just feed all raw since its more appropriate and nutrious for the dog?


I agree a 100% that a raw diet is more healthier. It isn't better to feed a raw/kibble diet. I just think some people including myself cannot do 100% raw. I do not have space for freezers, cannot afford to run them electric wise and in my case was costing almost $90 a month on meat. I like to feed variety, so alot of meats were well over $1. I would say the average between everything was $1/lb. My dog eats almost 3lbs aday so it adds up. I tried feeding less, but he was getting way to skinny. He is perfect weight. Maybe a little on the skinny side;0) Between that and the extra electric, I was at $100 a month. It was too much for me. Now I share the freezer:wink: and try to buy the best kibble I can afford. I really think I'm doing an excellent job with a $35 a month budget. I am concerned about the effects, of switching back and forth, is having on his system. Namely his organs. To be perfectly honest with you, he looks to me the same as when he was on 100% raw. I know you can't see the big picture from the outside. I do not switch between them everyday. I don't think it's a good idea to switch everyday. It's much better to do it every other week or every 2 weeks. Much less switching going on. Every once in a while I will though . When I have turkey or chicken, I cut out the breast and he gets the back, neck, wings, quarters, organd, guts. I think what I will do in the future, is bag it and freeze it. Than I'll just feed it when I have other raw meats. I don't think I'm doing any harm switching every other week or every 2 weeks. I could be wrong???? I also like to reccomend what works for me, be it nutrition or health. They both go hand in hand:wink: I also agree that clean teeth mean overall health. It's not only for cosmetics. That goes for people as well.


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## DaneMama

I think the main reasons why people do mix kibble and raw are the reasons you do. Which is great because you're doing the best that you can. It's great if mixing them works for your dog especially with no visible sign of problems. 

I honestly don't know for sure if it causes harm to switch back and forth at all....


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## cast71

As far as I can tell he's doing great. His stools are good on both, even as soon as I transition. It's always a smooth transition. This tells me he has the enzymes to digest both. I've had more problems transitioning from one kibble, to a totally new kibble that he's never had before, than I do from raw to kibble. Thats because he's use to raw and all the rotation formulas;0) What I've noticed is if I keep a simple kibble rotation, I have no problems. Say I use all the TOTW formulas and acana praire. Once he's totally used to transitioning between them and he's also use to going to raw, I have no problems. If I add a brand new kibble, he has to get use to that one and than I'm fine. I'm not sure of the exact date I switched back to kibble. It was about 2 years ago. He was on 100% kibble. Within 6 months, it was as if I never fed him raw. His teeth were all gunked up. I tried different chews, even smoked knuckle bones until I came to this site;0) It helped but wasn't a 100% solution. That's a big reason I started raw again. His teeth and gums are excellent. He's about 8 1/2 years old and has never had a cleaning:smile: He almost did, but luckily everything worked out. I feel like he is doing much better than a 100% kibble fed dog or a dog fed kibble and cooked meats. I think if someone wants to try out raw, my way of feeding is an excellent option. They can sort of test drive it. They don't even have to buy a freezer. Just go out and get some backs or quarters. The only thing I would recommend is to go super slow. It's very important to get them use to chicken backs and quarters and transitioning back to kibble before you can think of adding anything else. I would also probablly keep them on chcken backs for about 2 weeks and than go back to kibble. I would do that a few times until your sure that you have no problems. Once your over that hump, you can add new meats, but slowly.


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## DaneMama

You're a very lucky owner because your dog handles so much transitioning, but I'd say that most other dogs even if transitioned slowly would not do well at all on your routine of feeding. I've seen too many cases of dogs not doing well feeding part raw and part kibble. I wholeheartedly believe that your dog is an exception to the norm! Feel privileged :wink:


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## cast71

Are the other cases feeding raw for a week or two and than going back to kibble for a week or two. I haven't heard of anyone feeding the way I do. I always hear of people feeding raw and kibble on the same day or even at the same time I think that it is a mixture for failure. I think If those cases fed raw for a week or two and than went back to kibble for a week or two, they might not have any problems. I really can't be too sure, because I do not know of anyone else feeding like me. Maybe someone else will be brave enough to experiment:biggrin:


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## whiteleo

I'm really trying to understand how this works because from my point of view feeding a dog kibble for a couple weeks and then raw for a couple weeks seems to defeat the purpose, they would just cancel each other out!


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## cast71

How would they cancel each other out? My dog is getting nutrition, otherwise he would be sick. His coat is silky soft, bright eyes, no eye boogers, not huge sloppy stools, lots of energy, excellent gums and teeth, no nasty odors from his coat.


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## whiteleo

What I'm saying is that your putting in REAL food for 2 weeks and then processed food for 2 weeks. 

It would be like me going on a diet of good nutritious lean meats and vegetable (we know dogs don't eat those on raw), for 2 weeks and then 2 weeks of fast food. But this is strictly my opinion as to how I see it.


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## DaneMama

cast71 said:


> Are the other cases feeding raw for a week or two and than going back to kibble for a week or two. I haven't heard of anyone feeding the way I do. I always hear of people feeding raw and kibble on the same day or even at the same time I think that it is a mixture for failure. I think If those cases fed raw for a week or two and than went back to kibble for a week or two, they might not have any problems. I really can't be too sure, because I do not know of anyone else feeding like me. Maybe someone else will be brave enough to experiment:biggrin:


You have to remember that most dogs can't handle the constant switch back and forth even if it is every other two weeks or so. I know my dogs wouldn't handle it well because every time they get into kibble they get really sick. I've known many other raw fed dogs that get really sick on kibble. I'm glad it works for your dog but I believe 100% that your dog is an anomaly. I think there may be a reason why your dog is the only one who you know on this type of schedule because it's not a tried and true method. Maybe it will become that way for other exceptionally steel gutted dogs....but until then I will not recommend it at all. Sorry!


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## cast71

That makes sense. I do feed decent kibbles though. It's not like I'm feeding purina or ol'roy. That would be like feeding fast food. He is getting nutrition from TOTW and acana. When he was strictly on kibble, he was doing great. He's doing even better with the raw/kibble diet. He was on 100% raw for 2 years straight. I physically do not see any difference now. I'm also still not saying that raw/kibble is better than 100% raw. It isn't:wink:


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## whiteleo

And I'm not arguing with you that it isn't working for your dog, it just is not a logical way to feed.


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## cast71

danemama08 said:


> You have to remember that most dogs can't handle the constant switch back and forth even if it is every other two weeks or so. I know my dogs wouldn't handle it well because every time they get into kibble they get really sick. I've known many other raw fed dogs that get really sick on kibble. I'm glad it works for your dog but I believe 100% that your dog is an anomaly. I think there may be a reason why your dog is the only one who you know on this type of schedule because it's not a tried and true method. Maybe it will become that way for other exceptionally steel gutted dogs....but until then I will not recommend it at all. Sorry!


I understand your point. The reason the dogs are getting very sick when they get into kibble, is the same reason dogs get sick when they start raw. They do not have the enzymes to digest kibble anymore. If they were use to both kibble and raw, it might not be a problem. I guess there are alot of dogs out there that can not switch so often, so I am being a little closed minded. Another point is a raw diet is constantly transitioning between different meaty bones, different organs, different muscle meats. Dogs cannot goto to that rotation immediately. It takes alot of time for them to get use to everything. I think that's the same concept I'm using. I think alot of dogs can do well on what I'm doing.


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## cast71

whiteleo said:


> And I'm not arguing with you that it isn't working for your dog, it just is not a logical way to feed.


I'm not arguing either:wink: I think it's much better than feeding 100% kibble. I already avoided anesthesia and dental cleaning and he seems much healthier than kibble alone. I also do understand that raw feeders feel very strongly about strictly raw. I started on the yahoo group and I'm still a member. I haven't visited in like 3 years ahahaahaha. If I was posting this topic on that site I would be ban. Don't ban me mods:biggrin:


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## KC23

Just like Sara mentioned earlier, when my one dog licks that way--I usually find a piece of chicken stuck in his teeth. Once I take it out, he's fine.

I did notice him licking like that prior to having a fractured tooth removed too. Something like that or an infection could also be a possibility. Good luck.


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## DaneMama

cast71 said:


> I understand your point. The reason the dogs are getting very sick when they get into kibble, is the same reason dogs get sick w-hen they start raw. They do not have the enzymes to digest kibble anymore. If they were use to both kibble and raw, it might not be a problem. I guess there are alot of dogs out there that can not switch so often, so I am being a little closed minded. Another point is a raw diet is constantly transitioning between different meaty bones, different organs, different muscle meats. Dogs cannot goto to that rotation immediately. It takes alot of time for them to get use to everything. I think that's the same concept I'm using. I think alot of dogs can do well on what I'm doing.


While the transition to full raw is a long, step wise process (at least the way we recommend it) its so different than comparing it to the way you feed your dog. Its just not logical to compare the two. 

The same types of enzymes are used to digest all the raw meats, but different enzymes are used to break down kibble. So if you switch back and forth even every few weeks, your dog's body has to change gears regardless.

I think you're forgetting that most dogs out there have sensitive tummies. There are a few dogs that seem to be able to eat anything and everything under the sun and do fine with it. I still know that most dogs wouldn't handle switching gears around with your feeding schedule. I encourage you to help others out if they are interested in your style of feeding because most people would tell them to either cut the kibble or raw altogether if the dog ended up having issues. 

The last thing either of us wants is sick dogs, so I do my best to recommend things that I know are good and have the experience behind them. In my experience I don't recommend switching back and forth between kibble and raw in any way, shape or form.


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## cast71

I'll agree that my dog has an iron stomach. Some of the things he has eaten I'd rather not discuss:redface:. I did catch him chomping on a rotten deer carcass once. That wasn't so bad ahahahahaha I would also agree that there are alot of sensative dogs out there. I guess that's where I'm lacking in experience. I definitely would advise to either switch to kibble or raw if having problems feeding both. I just want to say again, I do not like the idea of switching back and forth everyday. I think thats way to much transitioning. That's what alot of the commercial raw diets are recommending, namely natures variety. They even recommend feeding both raw and kibble at the same time. I spoke with them on the phone and they said that it's a myth about the different digestion rates. Thats a bunch of bull. I think the recomendation of feeding raw and kibble in the same day or same time, is the major reason there are alot of problems. Anyway, thanks for taking the time to discuss this topic. I feel I did learn something out of it:smile:


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## funshine

danemama08 said:


> I know my dogs wouldn't handle it well because every time they get into kibble they get really sick. I've known many other raw fed dogs that get really sick on kibble.


My dog throws up if she gets into more than a few pieces of kibble. I know that she wouldn't handle a switch to kibble easy.


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## werecatrising

I would think that once a dog gets used to digesting raw kibble would just sit there.
This past weekend we had a dog come in on emergency. The owner was worried because he was vomiting about 8 hours after every meal. As I was getting info, asking if the owner started a new bag of food, all that stuff- the owner mentioned she had made a diet change. She had the dog on raw, but decided to start feeding half kibble. The dog had been fasted for 24 hours when it came in. When we x rayed him his last meal, kibble, was STILL sitting in the stomach. The doctor told the owner to try going back to 100% raw and the vomiting stopped immediately.


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## Cliffdog

werecatrising said:


> I would think that once a dog gets used to digesting raw kibble would just sit there.
> This past weekend we had a dog come in on emergency. The owner was worried because he was vomiting about 8 hours after every meal. As I was getting info, asking if the owner started a new bag of food, all that stuff- the owner mentioned she had made a diet change. She had the dog on raw, but decided to start feeding half kibble. The dog had been fasted for 24 hours when it came in. When we x rayed him his last meal, kibble, was STILL sitting in the stomach. The doctor told the owner to try going back to 100% raw and the vomiting stopped immediately.


Wow, that amazes me. Bizarre.


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## kevin bradley

update...

Harry has a bad tooth. I found it last night. I feel like a horrible owner today. Damnit, I should have seen this...known the signs. He's been licking his lips for a few days and smacking his gums also. 

I've got a Vet appt. at 11am this morning. 

I feel no better than the jerks who stick their dogs on chains all day.


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## cast71

Don't beat yourself up. Your a great owner. It's only been a few days, so hopefully everything will be ok.


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## cast71

werecatrising said:


> I would think that once a dog gets used to digesting raw kibble would just sit there.
> This past weekend we had a dog come in on emergency. The owner was worried because he was vomiting about 8 hours after every meal. As I was getting info, asking if the owner started a new bag of food, all that stuff- the owner mentioned she had made a diet change. She had the dog on raw, but decided to start feeding half kibble. The dog had been fasted for 24 hours when it came in. When we x rayed him his last meal, kibble, was STILL sitting in the stomach. The doctor told the owner to try going back to 100% raw and the vomiting stopped immediately.


Your right that once a dog gets use to raw they cannot digest kibble, until they get use to it again. My dog was on raw for 2 years and than I went to 100% kibble. I do not remember any major problems other than upset stomach for a few days. Regurgitating is normal for dogs. If she went full kibble, her dog would of got use to it again. The reason why it was sitting in the dogs stomach, was because it lacked the enzymes to process it. If she stuck with 100% kibble for a couple of weeks, I'm sure things would of worked out. It sounds like she panicked. I still think that feeding kibble and raw on the same day is not a good idea. I think separating them into weeks or biweekly can work.


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## DaneMama

Kevin, what kind of bad tooth? Broken and needs to be extracted? 

Don't beat yourself up. At least you took him in and got him looked at which makes you 1000X better than the people who chain their dogs up because they wouldn't even notice a thing like lip smacking. We have some clients (rich human doctors mind you) that know their dogs teeth are terrible (like every tooth needs to be extracted because periodontal disease is so bad) but dont want to spend the money on fixing their dogs teeth. It makes me angry and frustrated and all I can do is keep my mouth shut. 

Keep us all posted and hope all goes well!


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## wags

kevin bradley said:


> update...
> 
> Harry has a bad tooth. I found it last night. I feel like a horrible owner today. Damnit, I should have seen this...known the signs. He's been licking his lips for a few days and smacking his gums also.
> 
> I've got a Vet appt. at 11am this morning.
> 
> I feel no better than the jerks who stick their dogs on chains all day.


Stop beating yourself up! Its a tooth and your a great dog owner. You are so much better than a person chaining their dog up. That person leaves their dogs on a chain to rot~they forget about them~ and doesnt worry about what they feed them, how the dog is doing if its cold or hot, if it has food water and my god they would never think of dental care! Now this sort of talk is just silly! Your a great dog owner and that is that!:smile:


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## kevin bradley

another update, guys. thanks for the kind words. 

Just got back from the VET.

Well, Harry's teeth aren't GREAT... gums were a little red. Vet looked at them and said they weren't great, but didn't think that was causing the tongue/licking/smacking issue.....definitely thought he needed his teeth cleaned though. 

So after Harry was out, we looked at his tongue and there was a cut on his tongue near the back of his mouth. And, hold your lunch here... but there was a bunch of hair in the cut and even a piece of hair way down under the skin. Vet had to make a small incision and pull it out. I was starting to get queezy...not fun. I'm already a scared Dad and ... it's just been a long day. 

I just hope I can get his tongue healed up....and not get any more hair into the cut. 

Hoping to get some sleep tonight. Man this is tough. I've got a chicken and rice dinner ready for him as long as he can have it.


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## kevin bradley

danemama08 said:


> Kevin, what kind of bad tooth? Broken and needs to be extracted?
> 
> Don't beat yourself up. At least you took him in and got him looked at which makes you 1000X better than the people who chain their dogs up because they wouldn't even notice a thing like lip smacking. We have some clients (rich human doctors mind you) that know their dogs teeth are terrible (like every tooth needs to be extracted because periodontal disease is so bad) but dont want to spend the money on fixing their dogs teeth. It makes me angry and frustrated and all I can do is keep my mouth shut.
> 
> Keep us all posted and hope all goes well!


thanks Nat. 

Well, I thought it looked pretty bad(see my last post) but Vet said while it was bad, he didn't think it needed extraction. 

Unbelievable(re. the Doctors). I'd never let my Dogs live in pain knowingly. Never. 

Just this has torn me apart. I looked at Harry this morning and it was almost as if he said back to me..."why'd you let me feel like this, Dad." 

I'm going to the bookstore tonight to get a book on behavioral signs because I obviously have some learning to do.


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## DaneMama

Get books by Patricia B. McConnell, PhD, Dr. Sophia Yin, Turid Rugaas to start with. They are all amazing behaviorists.


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## kevin bradley

man, this thing keeps changing by the second. I just called my Vet and while he thinks the tongue cut was causing him to lick his lips, he did have to remove a number of teeth(the Tech thought about 5-7).

Man, what a day.


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## DaneMama

Sometimes it's hard to gauge whether a tooth needs to come out or not just by looking at them. Once we get all the nasty tartar off is when we can really know if a tooth needs do be extracted or left alone. Sorry your pup went through all of this...but if you switch him to raw now it will prevent him from going through this again.


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## kevin bradley

danemama08 said:


> Sometimes it's hard to gauge whether a tooth needs to come out or not just by looking at them. Once we get all the nasty tartar off is when we can really know if a tooth needs do be extracted or left alone. Sorry your pup went through all of this...but if you switch him to raw now it will prevent him from going through this again.


Nat,

Is Harry gonna be able to live ok w/ all these teeth removed? I'm not even sure how many teeth a Dog has but 7 sounds like a lot. 

I'm worried. Heck, I just had his teeth cleaned about 1 year ago. It almost seems like his teeth got WORSE since they were cleaned. I did read something about how teeth cleaning can actually hurt your Dogs teeth because they grind the important top layer down. 

Everything is so confusing.


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## cast71

I'm sorry to hear that your dog lost some teeth:frown:


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## DaneMama

It depends on which teeth were taken. If they pulled ones used for chewing then he may have to eat softer foods, but if all they took were incisors then he should be fine to eat hard foods. 

The act of scaling teeth can damage them some especially if not done right and a good job at polishing.


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## kevin bradley

should be the last update...

the origins of Harry's issues seemed to change every second yesterday. 

So I pick him up and he was doing well. Talked to the Vet for awhile and Harry had hair lodged in between his teeth, causing the issues w/ his teeth. He believes this was the reason we had to do the extractions...

But he's doing better, even stopped most of the licking of his chops already...so whether it was the cut/hair lodged in his tongue or the hair lodged in his teeth, I'm glad I got some answers. 

I'm also heading to the groomer to see if we can get him shaved a bit. Its winter so I don't know how much I want taken off. 

thanks


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## cast71

Hope harry's feeling better!


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