# Raw fed dog showing kibble fed traits....



## Montana (Apr 10, 2011)

Montana has been raw fed since August 2010. This past week she's been pooping 2 times a day, when she would regularly poop once every day or two, and big, stinky, kibble fed looking poops! She's also drinking water more, like she would when I fed her Orijin...

I haven't introduced anything new, nothing in her diet is out of the ordinary. The cat food is out of reach for her (would love to feed the cats raw, but have one very very very picky eater), and I haven't noticed a lack of cat poop in the litter box when I clean it out every day, so although those could be obvious reasons, it's not the case here.

What the heck! Any thoughts?


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## DaneMama (Jun 27, 2008)

Training treats? Supplements? Does she board or go to daycare?


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## 3Musketeers (Nov 4, 2010)

Also, any chance some neighbors might be giving her treats?


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## Northwoods10 (Nov 22, 2010)

Increase in exercise??

Remi & Nallah still poop 2x a day for the most part. Morgan poops 1x a day for the most part. Nallah & Morgan have been raw fed for over a year. Remi has been raw fed for 7 months. 

There are a lot of factors that can play into poop quantities and amounts. I notice all of my dogs poop more when they've had vigorous amounts of exercise.


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## RawFedDogs (Jun 16, 2008)

Something is different. Don't know what. Just know something. I suggest going back to the beginning and start over. Chicken only until she's back to normal, then add in turkey for a week, etc. until you get back to her normal diet.


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## Montana (Apr 10, 2011)

Training treats I use bits of seared steak, but I haven't been doing much training with her recently. Supplements I use evening primrose oil for her flakey skin... So dry here! Did Introduce fish oil last month due to lack of fish intake (that will change as fishing season just opened!) and proboitics occasionally for her bad breath (she still had it even after being on raw was suggested to use it, seems to help a bit). No boarding or daycare.
No one is able to feed her except us. We live in a condo complex with no yard so any time she is outside it's with us. Her exercise had increased since the weather went from winter to summer! Her poos just look so bad...

This morning she woke us up early with whining and shaking, which she has never done before, boyfriend took her outside where he said she had two huge poops in a row followed by what he said looked like muddy water, not diarrhea...

I'll give that a shot Bill... I'm getting a little concerned. Wish I could find an answer...


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## Montana (Apr 10, 2011)

Training treats I use bits of seared steak, but I haven't been doing much training with her recently. Supplements I use evening primrose oil for her flakey skin... So dry here! Did Introduce fish oil last month due to lack of fish intake (that will change as fishing season just opened!) and proboitics occasionally for her bad breath (she still had it even after being on raw was suggested to use it, seems to help a bit). No boarding or daycare.
No one is able to feed her except us. We live in a condo complex with no yard so any time she is outside it's with us. Her exercise had increased since the weather went from winter to summer! Her poos just look so bad...

This morning she woke us up early with whining and shaking, which she has never done before, boyfriend took her outside where he said she had two huge poops in a row followed by what he said looked like muddy water, not diarrhea...

I'll give that a shot Bill... I'm getting a little concerned. Wish I could find an answer...


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## DaneMama (Jun 27, 2008)

How much is she eating per day? 

Have you had a stool sample checked for parasites lately?


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## Montana (Apr 10, 2011)

She's fed once a day, she's on about 1.5% (just under 1lb a day) of her body weight as she is a lazy bum. I haven't gotten them checked no, looks like I should though?


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

i think bill's right.

start over.

no more seared steak, no more primrose oil, no more probiotics. raw fed dogs generally don't need that.

if her breath smells, have her teeth checked. she might have an abscess or something....

but i would go back to the beginning.


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## Montana (Apr 10, 2011)

Oh! Forgot to add I did introduce chicken feet a few days ago... Haven't been able to find them before. But this poop issue has been going on for longer than that, but thought I should mention it.


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## Montana (Apr 10, 2011)

magicre said:


> i think bill's right.
> 
> start over.
> 
> ...


Even with raw, without primrose oil her skin flakes like crazy. Coming from a hot humid climate do a cold dry one did a number on her poor skin. I think with Spring here now it's more damp I could try without it.

What should I use for training treats in class? She was taking training classes, which I will be doing more of in the summer months, I used hot dogs and cheese sometimes, but seared steak what was I was the most comfortable with, because I can't exactly bring her raw meal to class to use as training. :lol: It was high value to her as well. But as I said I haven't been training much with her recently, seared steak isn't apart of the poop issue right now.

Her teeth have been checked a few times by the vet since I've had her (took her in right away when I first noticed the bad breath), and were checked again a few weeks ago at the vet. Also, vet visit was just a check up and blood drawn, nothing given. She does have bad teeth from being malnourished when she was in her development stages, but other than that nothing out of the ordinary or that can be fixed.

I'm so disappointed if I have to start over again... wish I could just figure it out...


ETA: She has diarrhea now, which she has not ever had since I've had her. Being a stray, she had an iron stomach and took to raw and new proteins with zero problems or canon butt before.. 

Should I fast her??


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

chicken feet shouldn't cause a problem, because it's chicken feet...

but i can see where the searing of the steak might...

why primrose oil? why not feed her fish or give her fish oil, which is more dog appropriate....

why does she need probiotics...has she been on them since you've gotten her, because they do have diminishing returns after a while....

since she's been transitioned now for almost a year...this is her first summer...so by now she should be getting a variety of proteins?

what does her menu consist of?

and if she has bad teeth are there any that need to be pulled?

this is your first summer with her since she started raw last august...now you're seeing the difference between summer weather and winter weather, so she might need more fat in her diet....i know my skin gets hella dry in the summer...not that that makes sense, but there ya go...

i'm more interested in her menu.....before you start from square one.


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## Montana (Apr 10, 2011)

I haven't used seared steak since I haven't been taking her to training classes for about a month now. I do give her fish oil as well, maybe I'll try cutting out the EPO and probiotics. Probiotics I've only use for about half the time (but not daily, about 3 times a week) since she's been raw fed (suggested by on Dogster) because of her bad breath. The vets or myself haven't found anything that need to be done about her teeth. She had them professionally checked about 5 times, and I haven't had her for a year yet. I've been to the vet often due to her testing positive for erhlichia. She's been negative the past two blood tests.

Her menu is a chicken quarter or turkey neck once or twice a week (dusty poops if any more than that). Her other daily boneless meals are mostly beef, with pork, elk, deer, and moose rotated as main protein, and liver, spleen, and kidney, a little (beef or chicken) heart, beef lung, and tongue.


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

i would try to timeline it first....like when did you first notice she was starting to look and act like a kibble dog...and then think about what you did differently the day after.....

since it's her first summer with you, there may be some tweaks you'd need to make to accomodate the heat and if she is on fish oil, make sure it's a quality fish....

i presume she doesn't eat fish? 

she certainly gets a well rounded menu...

still, i'd start over.....i'd stop using the probiotics, the primrose oil and i'd get a quality salmon oil + vitamin e caps and make sure the dosage is right....for her size...

it won't take long to see if and what the culprit may be or you might never know...it just might be her reaction to summer


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## Montana (Apr 10, 2011)

That's where I'm stumped! I've been thinking long and hard about what could be even the slightest different in her meals the past few weeks (this poop thing has been an issue for over a week now) and can't think of anything. She doesn't get fish, no. She won't eat the fish that is available in the markets here, which makes me question it because she will eat fish that I have caught and know is fresh (frozen first before being fed of course). Fishing season is open again here now so I will be catching fresh water trout.

The weather has been a bit weird, it got pretty hot and summery quickly, and this past week it's been rainy and damp, a bit unusual for here, it's usually mostly sunny. Consistent rain is a rarity. Could weather have caused this upset?

I use Life brand Salmon and Fish Oils. She weighs about 53lbs (ideally should be 50lbs, but got a bit chubby over the winter because of her laziness and first encounter with winter, posted a thread about it before) and gets 1000mg a day.

Ok, back to chicken we go..


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## tem_sat (Jun 20, 2010)

You mentioned you live in a condo. It is even remotely possible that any grassy areas which your dog may frequent have been recently treated with pesticide?


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## Montana (Apr 10, 2011)

tem_sat said:


> You mentioned you live in a condo. It is even remotely possible that any grassy areas which your dog may frequent have been recently treated with pesticide?


Nope, I live in a national park, chemicals aren't and are not allowed to be used. Even in the winter salting the roads is illegal, gravel only! I also live in a community where the majority of people are just transient visitors, are between 18 - 25 years old, and are renters. Most of them don't care enough to upkeep the place they are temporarily renting, let alone do any yard work :lol:. Good thought though! I wonder if it's something else we are encountering on our walks...


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## Montana (Apr 10, 2011)

P.S: She has really runny diarrhea now and having to go out every half hour or so.... what can I give her to help with it? Steamed rice? Bone in chicken? Nothing just let it pass?


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## Tobi (Mar 18, 2011)

Montana said:


> P.S: She has really runny diarrhea now and having to go out every half hour or so.... what can I give her to help with it? Steamed rice? Bone in chicken? Nothing just let it pass?


IMO 24 hour fast would be the best. let it run its course and start over from scratch.


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## Grandiose (Apr 2, 2011)

Playing Devils advocate here - but a dog that has watery diarrhea and has to go out every half hour should probably be on it's way to the Vets.
There are many ailments that can affect full grown "healthy" vaccinated dogs, so it really is best that you seek veterinary advice when symptoms continue to progress like it sounds as though this is....


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## DaneMama (Jun 27, 2008)

I would at least have a stool sample checked....


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## Montana (Apr 10, 2011)

She hasn't had diarrhea for over a few hours now (she had to go out 3 times this morning but seems to have stopped now). She's not acting anything out of sorts, but I'll keep an eye on her until I have to go to work tonight. Vet is closed now but will call emergency if she starts getting diarrhea again. Thank you for all your help and advise!


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## DaneMama (Jun 27, 2008)

I wouldnt go to an er vet just for diarrhea. Just make sure she's drinking enough water and call your vet in the morning and ask if you can just drop off a stool sample to be run for parasites. Make sure you pick it up off the ground as soon as you can because it can run positive falsely if it's been sitting on the ground for any amount of time. Less than six hours old is best and put it in a ziplock, refrigerate it if you aren't going straight to the vet. And typically we don't need a huge amount, the size of a walnut is plenty.


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## FL Cracker (May 4, 2011)

Just an outside perspective here...and not sure if this was stated as I glanced over the post's...but the source of where your getting her food at? Did they change companies that distribute to them...therefore causing a change in the meat they provide? That would be a big dietary change that would cause the symptoms...since there is really not change in your routine?
Just another possibility to rule out...hang in there...and good luck.


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## TuckersMom (Apr 27, 2011)

Montana said:


> P.S: She has really runny diarrhea now and having to go out every half hour or so.... what can I give her to help with it? Steamed rice? Bone in chicken? Nothing just let it pass?


I think you should have the vet check her out.


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## Duece (Apr 9, 2011)

We live in Tucson so we don't get meat like deer, elk, moose and so on, is it from wild animals or are they farmed? We feed raw but have nothing exotic and could not afford to have it shipped in, we feed stuff like rabbit, chicken, buffalo etc. and belong to a raw feeders club located in Phoenix. I so hope that your dog improves.


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## Montana (Apr 10, 2011)

FL Cracker said:


> Just an outside perspective here...and not sure if this was stated as I glanced over the post's...but the source of where your getting her food at? Did they change companies that distribute to them...therefore causing a change in the meat they provide? That would be a big dietary change that would cause the symptoms...since there is really not change in your routine?
> Just another possibility to rule out...hang in there...and good luck.


The beef I got was from an ethnic market, it was a 50lb rib cut and haven't bought anything new since! Still working our way through that. Also the pork, moose, elk, and deer are still from the same source as well. I'm feeding the exact same meat from the same cuts that I have been for almost a few months... I'm almost thinking it's gotta be something other than her diet... I'm going bonkers trying to figure it out! Thank you for your response!



Duece said:


> We live in Tucson so we don't get meat like deer, elk, moose and so on, is it from wild animals or are they farmed? We feed raw but have nothing exotic and could not afford to have it shipped in, we feed stuff like rabbit, chicken, buffalo etc. and belong to a raw feeders club located in Phoenix. I so hope that your dog improves.


It's wild from friends who hunt. I've been feeding her from the same batch for several months now with no problems before, it's strange. Buffalo would be neat to feed! I haven't been able to get my hands on rabbit yet, despite my best efforts unfortunately. Thank you for your support.



DaneMama said:


> I wouldnt go to an er vet just for diarrhea. Just make sure she's drinking enough water and call your vet in the morning and ask if you can just drop off a stool sample to be run for parasites. Make sure you pick it up off the ground as soon as you can because it can run positive falsely if it's been sitting on the ground for any amount of time. Less than six hours old is best and put it in a ziplock, refrigerate it if you aren't going straight to the vet. And typically we don't need a huge amount, the size of a walnut is plenty.


I'll have to wait until her stools are not diarrhea again, yes? She seems to be just fine now, I keep taking her out to make sure, but she looks at me like I'm going loony and seems like the runs are done I hope... I'm fasting her today and will put her on some bone in chicken starting tomorrow? Thank you for helping me out with this, it's a little frustrating. I've only seem to have any problems (like her elevated red blood count, which I still have not heard back from the vet about!) just recently. Never had the regular issues like most raw feeders do when they start out.


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

Montana said:


> P.S: She has really runny diarrhea now and having to go out every half hour or so.... what can I give her to help with it? Steamed rice? Bone in chicken? Nothing just let it pass?


she needs to go to the vet. i would collect a stool sample and take her in....


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## Montana (Apr 10, 2011)

TuckersMom said:


> I think you should have the vet check her out.


The vet I see is only in the office once a week. I've gone to the other ones in the practice and they've given me grief for not even telling them I feed raw, just suggesting or asking about it. The vet I picked doesn't know I feed raw yet, but I wanted to get to know her a bit better, and her to know me better as well before I say anything because I've gotten smack about it in the office before, I'm hesitant. I chose her because she is also an animal acupuncturist, and likes to keep things more natural (like keeping vaccinating minimal, or tittering instead!) But in my past visit I can tell she doesn't have knowledge on the raw diet.
Anyway, I'll have to wait for her if the problems persist, because I know the other ones will chalk it up to raw feeding because I've seen how against it they are.


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## Montana (Apr 10, 2011)

magicre said:


> she needs to go to the vet. i would collect a stool sample and take her in....


She hasn't had any diarrhea since this morning. I can't get a sample, it seems to be done. But will do when she passes one next!


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## G_slave01 (Dec 24, 2010)

Hope your girl is doing better. Nothing like a poo mystery to drive you crazy (been there!). On the few occassions where mine has gotten into something she shouldn't have or something has disagreed with her I have used slippery elm bark powder. I think it helps. Contrary to the products claim, she doesn't think the taste is "pleasant" so I do have to mix it with an egg.


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## Dog Walker (Dec 23, 2010)

Just a thought, but have you given her any new toys, plush, rawhide etc? I know when we gave my Jakey a new rawhide a few years back he had the runs for a few days until we figured out what had caused it. He also got them after being given flea and tick repellents(that one was weird). Just a random thought of where I have had poopy mysteries.


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## Duece (Apr 9, 2011)

even if you must go to a new vet, I would go, some wild animals carry parasites, (freezing kills some) but even if you have fed the meat before it might be possible that it took awhile to manifest itself into something physically visable, don't really know, but if possible get it checked out.


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

Montana said:


> She hasn't had any diarrhea since this morning. I can't get a sample, it seems to be done. But will do when she passes one next!


if the diarrhea has stopped....then i would suggest making her a broth so her liquid intake stays up....put just a little tiny itsy bitsy salt in it which will bind with her potassium to keep that from leaving her body.....but no other seasonings....

you want to keep her drinking which at this point is more important than eating...

is there a place she can get into outside that might be suspect? is she always on leash? 

is there something new you're using to wash clothing, floors, rugs?

when she does pass a stool, i'd collect it and take the stool to the vet....


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## CavePaws (Jan 25, 2011)

Agreed that a stool sample should go in. Some wild game meat _might _have parasites, it is _always _a possibility. I think moose is actually one of the game meats I've heard that carries trich. sometimes, just like boar. I've been feeding wild boar for quite a few months and have been on my toes about symptoms with the pups. Sometimes with parasites it will take a few months for symptoms to pop up. Sometimes a fecal sample won't tell you about some other nasty parasites that are lurking. I think a stool sample is the first way to go, and if that doesn't pop up I would have her actually looked over and maybe have blood drawn. Definitely start her meal plans over with just bone in chicken.

edit: I also think ANY stool sample, even a firm one should go in. Any sample will be better than no sample.


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## Montana (Apr 10, 2011)

magicre said:


> if the diarrhea has stopped....then i would suggest making her a broth so her liquid intake stays up....put just a little tiny itsy bitsy salt in it which will bind with her potassium to keep that from leaving her body.....but no other seasonings....
> 
> you want to keep her drinking which at this point is more important than eating...
> 
> ...


I actually did give her some broth when I got home from work last night (early this morning) She seems to be doing great now! I gave her a chicken thigh this afternoon, no more bad diarrhea yet! Yay. No poop yet though, hopefully one tomorrow so I can get it taken it. She's drinking as usual, and not overly like I noted in my first post to this thread. She's acting just fine now too, no other symptoms other than her watery diarrhea the other morning.
I have to mention she did get a blood panel just before I noticed these strange stool symptoms, and nothing came back regarding parasites, would this show up in blood? Is it even possible that maybe she does have something but it just manifested a day or two later after the blood work?

She's always on leash when I or the OH takes her out, she's got a terrible recall, which we have been training on, and dogs are not allowed off leash in the national park due to the abundance of wildlife (I come across coyotes, wolves sometimes, elk and deer all the time - almost daily).

There's nothing new in the house that I can think of. We are moving on Tuesday, and I'm just starting to pack up today, maybe she's been sensing the stress and anticipation of it? She's not really a sensitive dog that way though... she's more of a go with the flow laid back kind of personality. We don't have a strict regular routine, we're social people as well, so new things aren't really out of the ordinary. 

I'm just happy the symptoms haven't persisted yet...


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## Montana (Apr 10, 2011)

Dog Walker said:


> Just a thought, but have you given her any new toys, plush, rawhide etc? I know when we gave my Jakey a new rawhide a few years back he had the runs for a few days until we figured out what had caused it. He also got them after being given flea and tick repellents(that one was weird). Just a random thought of where I have had poopy mysteries.


This is a good thought as well! Unfortunately though, Montana does not play with toys, and she's only been in play mode with me personally (chasing and play bowing) twice since I've had her. Her being a stray grew up with other dogs and not much human contact so she is great with playing other dogs! It's been almost a year since I adopted her, and in preparation to her adoption I bought a butt load of toys, only to find out she doesn't play. :lol: I've been working on this with her and have made small progress, but toys just don't stimulate her. So nothing new that she would be having in her mouth. :/


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

given that she is showing improvement...if she continues to do so..i'd still take a fecal sample in...one never knows with these guys....but,
other than that...if she is holding down chicken, again, i'd start over...chicken for a week, then turkey, then pork, then fish, then meat....

the reason i say that is because meat is rich and can cause loose stools.

this way, if you stay on a slightly heavier bone meal.....her stools stabilise and her digestive system resets.

i don't know much about blood panels, but i don't think parasites show......


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## Montana (Apr 10, 2011)

Well guys I think I figured out the source of my original concern of Montana having kibble-like poops and drinking more water... I was wracking my brain the other night and going through the house of what it could be. ANYTHING that was new or different...
I have to say my girl is great with things that are left out, she never gets into the garbage if I leave it on the floor tied up, even if I'm not home. When food falls on the floor I've trained her to not take it unless I say it's okay or give it to her. She doesn't even eat random things off the floor. She HAS gotten in the garbage once when I left it open on the floor by accident and trimmed off over 4 lbs of pork fat, she figured it was hers and was delicious, my bad. She didn't knock it over and go through it, she just plucked the fat from the top.

Soooo... went to go feed the cats, the current bag I have isn't in a container, and the bag of food seems very low seeing how I just bought it. And I'm like... what the deuce! And the boyfriend points out, oh sometimes when I come home the closet door is open, and tonight I noticed the top of the bag was pushed in... like Montana had her face in there.

!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

The door doesn't close properly so she's been sneaking in there and slowing taking a few munches over time and making it not obvious. Sneaky resourceful little Mexican! 
I can't believe I didn't even think to check.. just when you think you know your dog...
Embarrassing!

I was going to take a stool sample on Monday when the vet is open in due to her horrible diarrhea the other morning, her poops are looking good now... a little dusty and yellow due to all the chicken when she's used to red meat. Should I still take one it or play it by ear? And by ear I mean poop.


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## whiteleo (Sep 7, 2008)

They are resourceful aren't they!


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## Montana (Apr 10, 2011)

I feel like such a dumb dumb that t I ruled out, "no way it could be the cat food or kitty litter" right off the bat... I'm sorry to make you all help me with your great advise when it was something so obvious...


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## TuckersMom (Apr 27, 2011)

I am so glad to hear you figured out what it was!!! That sneaky little girl :smile:


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## phoDOGrapher (May 30, 2011)

eek, I'd see a vet :S

edit - oops, I hadn't gotten to the end of the thread! Glad she's ok


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

sometimes playing detective with these guys is exhausting....because we think...nah, not MY dog....and then we find out that it IS my dog....

but, we were glad to help...yes, i'm speaking for everyone here LOL

and in so doing, you discovered the cause, the problem is solved.

i'd keep her on chicken for the rest of the week, and then slowly re intro her stuff, just because her intestines are probably tender right now...


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