# "Bark" Collars



## CorgiPaws

I was wondering if anyone believes in the "benefits" of shock collars. A small breed dog came into my work with one on, and I obviously had to remove it, as we can't leave them on while they play with the other dogs, and the poor little guy had two BURN marks from where it was constantly been shocking him, that were scabbed over and swollen. 
I've always wondered why not put a little time into training a more huumane way.... 
This is about the tenth case like this I've seen after removing the cruel devices from poor dog's necks at daycare. :frown:


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## whiteleo

It's the same concept as the invisible fence, and I won't have either one!


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## RawFedDogs

CorgiPaws said:


> I was wondering if anyone believes in the benefits of shock collars.


There is never an instance where this cruelty is justified. There is nothing that can be taught with a shock collar that can't be taught with positive methods. The same goes for choke chains and pinch collars. Only an ignorant or lazy trainer would use these torture devices.


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## CorgiPaws

RawFedDogs said:


> There is never an instance where this cruelty is justified. There is nothing that can be taught with a shock collar that can't be taught with positive methods. The same goes for choke chains and pinch collars. Only an ignorant or lazy trainer would use these torture devices.


I agree. It amazes me how many wonderful dogs come in with these torture deices strapped around their throats. (or the equally-cruel pronged collars) I don't understand the logic behind it. The motivation. Why not spend five minutes a day TRAINING and BONDING witht eh dog using positive methods?

Training my puppies is by far the strongest bonding experience I've had with them. I can't imagine giving that up.


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## claybuster

CorgiPaws said:


> I agree. It amazes me how many wonderful dogs come in with these torture deices strapped around their throats. (or the equally-cruel pronged collars) I don't understand the logic behind it. The motivation. Why not spend five minutes a day TRAINING and BONDING witht eh dog using positive methods?
> 
> Training my puppies is by far the strongest bonding experience I've had with them. I can't imagine giving that up.



It seems like you're under the impression E-collars train dogs. E-collars do not train dogs, they are not miracle workers. Dogs must fully understand commands prior to using an E-collar, which obviously means a lot of training and bonding first.

A bark collar and a E-collar are not the same. An E-collar could be used as a bark collar only if the dog first understood the command QUIET or SSHHHH. If one cannot train a dog to be quiet, than they shouldn’t use E-collars, one would have to use a Bark collar.


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## RawFedDogs

So do I understand you correctly that you are justifying the use of pain and coersion in the training of dogs?


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## claybuster

RawFedDogs said:


> So do I understand you correctly that you are justifying the use of pain and coersion in the training of dogs?




I don't think e-collars are as bad as people make them out to be and they are not as painful as most automatically assume. It's more like a simple tap on the shoulder.

I know this may seem confusing most all of you, especially Corgi Paws and RFD but if you showed my dog an E-collar, she would rush you, jump up on you, may knock you over with excitement, tail wagging, and be the first to get to out the door. You folks talk about things you never tried and have little to no understanding about, and that is the ignorance.

off to work,
see ya.


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## RawFedDogs

claybuster said:


> I don't think e-collars are as bad as people make them out to be


"as bad" still means "bad". Remember the burn marks???



> and they are not as painful as most automatically assume.


"as painful" still means "painful". Remember the burn marks????



> It's more like a simple tap on the shoulder.


It's still shocking your dog. How is that a good thing??? Remember the burn marks???

I too have seen several dogs with burn marks from shock collars. I had a client one time who had a Golden Retriever with the hair on the front of the neck burned off after he returned from "boot camp".



> I know this may seem confusing most all of you, especially Corgi Paws and RFD but if you showed my dog an E-collar, she would rush you, jump up on you, may knock you over with excitement, tail wagging, and be the first to get to out the door.


I don't believe it.



> You folks talk about things you never tried and have little to no understanding about, and that is the ignorance.


I have used pinch collars and choke chains before I learned a better way to train. I have personally seen dogs with damage done to their necks with shock collars, pinch collars, and choke chains. There is a better way. I train dogs without using collars of any kind. I use NO pain in the least. NO coersion. Just happy fun training and its more effective than pain and coersion. Don't knock it until you have tried it and obviously you haven't because you would have thrown away the shock collar by now if you knew how to train postively.


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## CorgiPaws

claybuster said:


> I don't think e-collars are as bad as people make them out to be and they are not as painful as most automatically assume.


So two holes burned in the fur of a dog's neck is not so bad? Tell that to the little guy who just had his cleaned out once again by myself. And for an update, they're also infected. But I guess that's not so bad either. 




claybuster said:


> It's more like a simple tap on the shoulder.


I have given Champ a tap or two on the shoulder, never has it left burn marks. Ever. 




claybuster said:


> I know this may seem confusing most all of you, especially Corgi Paws and RFD


You're absolutely right. It is BEYOND my understanding as to why someone would abuse their pets in the name of training. Forgive me, I can't grasp that concept. 



claybuster said:


> You folks talk about things you never tried and have little to no understanding about, and that is the ignorance.


You're absolutely right, once again. I never have and never would use a torture device on any of my dogs. (though I've had a few ex boyfriends who qualify for the treatment. LOL) But do NOT be so IGNORANT as to tell me I have no understanding of the damn things when I see it time and time again. I am not making assumptions over something I have never seen. 
You were not there this morning as I cleaned the wounds of yet ANOTHER dog abused by such things. If it were a one time thing, I would not have vented over it but it's not a one time thing. If the dogs that come in don't have total burn marks on their skin, their fur is at least affected. 
Seeing it time and time again is not ignorance. DOn't make assumptions about something you know nothing about.


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## sganow

Tried a bark collar a few years ago, hated it, threw it away. It was cruel!


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## CorgiPaws

sganow said:


> Tried a bark collar a few years ago, hated it, threw it away. It was cruel!



At least you learned and fixed it. Some peopl have yet to do so and their pets suffer for it.


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## claybuster

More on this later, but for right now:

It is not the car that kills but the drunk behind the wheel.
It is not the gun the kills but the person pulling the trigger.
It is not the knife that cuts but the one holding it, and...obviously

It IS* NOT *the e-collar that hurts dogs, it is the *person* holding the transmitter.


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## RawFedDogs

claybuster said:


> It IS* NOT *the e-collar that hurts dogs, it is the *person* holding the transmitter.


No, really, its the e-collar that actually hurts dogs.


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## CorgiPaws

claybuster said:


> It IS* NOT *the e-collar that hurts dogs, it is the *person* holding the transmitter.


Hmmm, I've never seen any part of the human body cause wounds of the fashion I've seen from the collar.
Therefore... it's the torture device...... I mean "collar"


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## claybuster

CorgiPaws said:


> You're absolutely right, once again. I never have and never would use a torture device on any of my dogs. (though I've had a few ex boyfriends who qualify for the treatment. LOL) But do NOT be so IGNORANT as to tell me I have no understanding of the damn things when I see it time and time again. I am not making assumptions over something I have never seen.
> You were not there this morning as I cleaned the wounds of yet ANOTHER dog abused by such things. If it were a one time thing, I would not have vented over it but it's not a one time thing. If the dogs that come in don't have total burn marks on their skin, their fur is at least affected.
> Seeing it time and time again is not ignorance. DOn't make assumptions about something you know nothing about.


The people you encounter shouldn't own pets it seems to me. If they're burning their dogs necks maybe you should report that to someone?

E-collars do not need to burn . You should report someone abusing their dog with an E-collar. The reason you stated you doubt that my dog gets excited when she sees her E-collar displays a complete lack of understanding.

My dog has been fully E-collar trained and it started at about 5 months of age. She will be 7 come Sept. She is never off lead without her E-collar no way, why take a chance.

Reality is there is a lot of distractions out there in the real world besides the little red ball rolled along the carpet in puppy training school. Sure they're quick to take your money but they're not going to give any guarantee.

I have 100% guaranteed total recall each and every time regardless of distraction. Cat, dog, deer, people, bicycle, jogger, cars, motorcycles, it doesn't matter what the distraction I have recall every time.
When I say "come" she comes. Many folks think they have recall of their dogs, but when the moment of truth comes their dogs could care less about them or their little bags of treats, for there is no respect.

I see it all the time, people think they can let their dog off lead at the park or big field as they take a little walk. They're usually the owners who end up screaming at the top their lungs for their dogs, waving a treatie and their dogs could care less about them. They've been spoiled rotten with treats no doubt and have no respect or willingness to obey a simple command and more or less tell you to go scr$w at every distraction.

I recall taking my daughter who was about 10 at the time and her little girlfriend to the wide open field a few miles away. About 3000 acres and the perfect windy day to fly a kite. It was a great day! Zoey was off lead, roaming where ever she wanted to go, but like a good dog generally just hanging around us three, within a couple hundred feet. After about 45 minutes I notice a lady shows up with her dog near the entrance and lets her dog off lead, maybe a 1/2 mile away. Next thing you know, her dog immediately starts to charge us, no doubt coming in to see the other dog in the field. Meanwhile, my Zoe stays by us and holds up her ground. The owner is now screaming her dogs name but the dog could care less about her, no respect, 0% recall. I say "stay" and my dog does not go out but rather now seems concerned about this charging dog coming and it's motive. The lady cannot control her dog bottom line and lucky the dogs didn't get into a scuffle. There was some barking and growling
when things got too close and the lady's dog finally backed off and left the area. Perfect example of how one thinks they have things under control off lead with their dogs, despite all that treatie rewards in the past, their dogs could care less about them and their treats when they encounter distraction. The lady mumbles something about my dog being mean and waddles on her way down path.

Relationship with my dog is based about both plenty of love and respect for each other. She knows she is not going to get abused, hurt or burned wearing her E-collar because she trusts in me and knows that is not what it's about.

You doubt that my dog gets excited when she sees her E-collar because you only associate them in you mind being torture devices and no dog could possibly want one of those things around the neck. The trust and respect elements in the relationship, part of the bonding, is earned over time and doesn't center around a treat in a plastic bag.


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## RawFedDogs

claybuster said:


> E-collars do not need to burn. You should report someone abusing their dog with an E-collar. The reason you stated you doubt that my dog gets excited when she sees her E-collar displays a complete lack of understanding.


NO, I very well understand electric shock.



> My dog has been fully E-collar trained and it started at about 5 months of age. She will be 7 come Sept. She is never off lead without her E-collar no way, why take a chance.


You take a chance ONLY when you have complete trust and faith in your dog and his devotion to you. My dogs are outside everyday off leash and have been for nearly 6 years. They come when called. Thats whats called complete trust and faith in your dog and trust in the bond between you. I can walk my dogs through PetSmart with their leashes dragging the ground. (They won't let me take them in off leash.)



> Reality is there is a lot of distractions out there in the real world besides the little red ball rolled along the carpet in puppy training school. Sure they're quick to take your money but they're not going to give any guarantee.


There are ways to proof your dogs against distractions.



> I have 100% guaranteed total recall each and every time regardless of distraction. Cat, dog, deer, people, bicycle, jogger, cars, motorcycles, it doesn't matter what the distraction I have recall every time.


I don't call your dog's recall 100% if you have to use a torture device to get her to do it.



> Many folks think they have recall of their dogs, but when the moment of truth comes their dogs could care less about them or their little bags of treats, for there is no respect.


You're right, many are like that. Also many who really understand dog training and dog psychology have compelte recall with their dogs without torture devices.



> Perfect example of how one thinks they have things under control off lead with their dogs, despite all that treatie rewards in the past, their dogs could care less about them and their treats when they encounter distraction.


You really should learn about postive training and how to properly do it. I think you would be surprised. My dogs don't get more than one or two treats a day if that many. Many days go by that they don't get one.



> Relationship with my dog is based about both plenty of love and respect for each other.


How can you possibly with good concience say that when you have to put a shock collar on her to get that respect????????? How can you possibly say you respect your dog with you shock her when she doesn't present the behavior you wish????? I think you need to look up the meanings for the words "love" and "respect".



> She knows she is not going to get abused, hurt or burned wearing her E-collar because she trusts in me and knows that is not what it's about.


I don't think she does.



> You doubt that my dog gets excited when she sees her E-collar because you only associate them in you mind being torture devices and no dog could possibly want one of those things around the neck. The trust and respect elements in the relationship, part of the bonding, is earned over time and doesn't center around a treat in a plastic bag.


I think she trusts the collar is going to shock her if she doesn't do what you say.


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## claybuster

RawFedDogs said:


> You really should learn about postive training and how to properly do it. I think you would be surprised. My dogs don't get more than one or two treats a day if that many. Many days go by that they don't get one.


I know all about positive training. E-collar training cannot be successful without positive training. That's why my dog loves her E-collar and has no resentment of what you folks call painful torture shock devices. I speak from experience working with E-collars. Typical, those opposed to E-collar training just let emotion take over, have no experience, and can only see what they want to see (the negatives).


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## RawFedDogs

How can you say being shocked by an e-collar is a positive experience to the dog?

*ETA:* You absolutely can NOT do positive training using a shock collar.


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## CorgiPaws

claybuster said:


> The people you encounter shouldn't own pets it seems to me. If they're burning their dogs necks maybe you should report that to someone?


Been there, done that. They can't do anything. Shock collars are totally legal and all they have to say is "oops" when it gets investigated. I've reported MANY people. Unfortunately the law does NOT protect our pets as it does our children.



claybuster said:


> E-collars do not need to burn . You should report someone abusing their dog with an E-collar. The reason you stated you doubt that my dog gets excited when she sees her E-collar displays a complete lack of understanding.


Have you considered perhaps it means she's excited to go out, NOT excited about the collar? Dogs aren't stupid, they don't enjoy pain. I have a hard time believing that your dog enjoys this treatment.




claybuster said:


> My dog has been fully E-collar trained and it started at about 5 months of age. She will be 7 come Sept. She is never off lead without her E-collar no way, why take a chance.


I take a chance because I DO have full love and respect for my dogs. I know they can do it. I have no doubt in them. I know they're trained well because I trained them myself using positive methods only. I guess for me it's not so much "taking a chance" it's having confidence in my dog's ability to focus. When you have a loyal intelligent dog that respects you, being out off lead is no gamble. Perhaps that's something you have no experience with.




claybuster said:


> I have 100% guaranteed total recall each and every time regardless of distraction. Cat, dog, deer, people, bicycle, jogger, cars, motorcycles, it doesn't matter what the distraction I have recall every time.
> When I say "come" she comes.


You have not. 100% recall is when you can call your dog, and she comes, nothing else added or needed. She coems because if she steps out of line, you shock her. You can't say you don't because if you didn't there would be no need to wear the thing in the first place. 
That is NOT perfected recall. 



claybuster said:


> Next thing you know, her dog immediately starts to charge us, no doubt coming in to see the other dog in the field. Meanwhile, my Zoe stays by us and holds up her ground. The owner is now screaming her dogs name but the dog could care less about her, no respect, 0% recall. I say "stay" and my dog does not go out but rather now seems concerned about this charging dog coming and it's motive. The lady cannot control her dog bottom line and lucky the dogs didn't get into a scuffle.


Surely if the woman had shocked her dog over and over her recall would be just as good. Or perhaps if your dog wasn't being shocked she would have ran up just the same frenzy. 





claybuster said:


> Relationship with my dog is based about both plenty of love and respect for each other. She knows she is not going to get abused, hurt or burned wearing her E-collar because she trusts in me and knows that is not what it's about.


If you respected her you'd have the confidence in her behavior without the collar. Period.




claybuster said:


> The trust and respect elements in the relationship, part of the bonding, is earned over time and doesn't center around a treat in a plastic bag.


You're right. In fact, I don't even buy treats. They get fish oil capsules as treats at night when they go to bed. My dogs listen to me because I have never hurt them in any way. Sure, a firm "NO!" breaks Grissom's little heart for about thirty seconds but he does NOT know the meaning of a raised hand or a shock being sent through his neck. He's nine months old, and I assure you his recall is better than most adult dogs. Sure, he gets distracted every now and then, he's a puppy, but that's a part of the learning experience. If he never slips up, I can't correct him and therefore he never learns. Champ is two and a half. His recall is a true 100% because he's learned that I love and respect him and when I ask him to do something it's for his own good. He doesn't come because he's afraid. He doesn't come because I might beat him if he doesn't/ He doesn't come because I'll shock him for disobeing. He comes because he is truely trained, and has a good relationship with me. 

It's about a true honest bond between canine and human based on love, respect, and understand of eachother's needs. 

But I can't expect you to understand something you have no experience with...


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## Doc

How does a an electronic collar burn a dog? Shock I understand, but burning I have never heard of.


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## CorgiPaws

Doc said:


> How does a an electronic collar burn a dog? Shock I understand, but burning I have never heard of.


It is an electric shock. Electric shocks can burn. 
I don't understand?

To quote an article on eHow. 
"Shock collars are frequently used in dog training, but may cause serious physical and behavioral harm to dogs. Risks include serious burns and an increased likelihood of aggressive behavior. An alternative training method is usually safer and more effective than the use of a shock collar"

Dog Injured By Anti-Bark Collar At Kennel | Itchmo: News For Dogs & Cats

Though it's about an "underground fence, same concept.
Ask the Veterinarian: Pressure Necrosis, pressure necrosis, underground fence


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## claybuster

Doc said:


> How does a an electronic collar burn a dog? Shock I understand, but burning I have never heard of.



They could leave marks (not burn marks) if the collar was on too tight and the prongs were constantly rubbing against the skin. Some may opt to shave or trim the hair on the neck area to get better contact with the hairy dog. Some may have settings set too high and there is chance they could leave marks.

People assume mankind is basically evil and everyone with an E-collar must be shocking, abusing, burning their dogs. Same mentality that would think we should get rid of all guns in this country because they can kill people.

People hurt dogs, not E-collars. I've seen an owner once crack their dog across butt with an end of a leash. Maybe we should get rid of all leashes?

Some people are very narrow minded and can only see issues one way. Usually young people with not much life experience are quick to judge others 
and only see things issues the way they want to see issues. E-collars can save a dogs life, but some would rather see their dog run out into the street and get killed by a bus.


Anyone witnessing somebody abusing a dog with an E-collar you would think that person would do something about that, report it to maybe the police or another agency like the SPCA. Doing nothing places you at the same level of ignorance as that owner with the E-collar IMO. Crying about it on the internet and accusing all people who happen to own E-collars have no love and respect for their dogs is the immature teenager type reaction.


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## CorgiPaws

claybuster said:


> They could leave marks (not burn marks) if the collar was on too tight and the prongs were constantly rubbing against the skin. Some may opt to shave or trim the hair on the neck area to get better contact with the hairy dog. Some may have settings set too high and there is chance they could leave marks.


No, they were burn marks. Two red, swollen burn marks.



claybuster said:


> Some people are very narrow minded and can only see issues one way. Usually young people with not much life experience are quick to judge others
> and only see things issues the way they want to see issues.


You know, it's hard to see it any other way when I see it happen so many times. There is nothing okay with a device that regularly has that effect on dogs. It isn't a one time incident. 




claybuster said:


> E-collars can save a dogs life, but some would rather see their dog run out into the street and get killed by a bus.


Or, more effectively, positive reinforcement training can do the same thing, no pain. Max, Champ, and Grissom have never even come close to running in front of a bus. Or car. Or truck. Or anything. Because they are trained. I don't need to shock them to make them listen. That's an untrained dog responding to pain.




claybuster said:


> Anyone witnessing somebody abusing a dog with an E-collar you would think that person would do something about that, report it to maybe the police or another agency like the SPCA. Doing nothing places you at the same level of ignorance as that owner with the E-collar IMO.


As I have. MANY TIMES, as I already stated. The problem is, the things are perfectly legal and when the SPCA investigates all they have to do is say "oops, won't happen again" and some get a written warning, but that's it. It's not life-threatening and unless that's the case, there's nothing anyone can do about it. Unfortunately dogs are still looked at as property by the law, and therefore are not very protected by the law except for extreme cases. 




claybuster said:


> Crying about it on the internet and accusing all people who happen to own E-collars have no love and respect for their dogs is the immature teenager type reaction.


I asked people's opinion. What's so wrong with that? I then gave mine. We're all entitled to our own and sharing it doesn't make anyone immature. We differ in what we believe. (very strongly) If you can't handle a debate without getting butt hurt, don't get into one.


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## RawFedDogs

claybuster said:


> They could leave marks (not burn marks) if the collar was on too tight and the prongs were constantly rubbing against the skin.


Electricity WILL burn. Houses have been burned down by faulty wiring in the house.



> People assume mankind is basically evil and everyone with an E-collar must be shocking, abusing, burning their dogs.


So you are trying to tell us that people use shock collars and DON'T shock their dogs???



> Same mentality that would think we should get rid of all guns in this country because they can kill people.


Different concept. People kill other people with guns. People shock dogs with shock collars. It's the ignorant people who use shock collars who are to blame. Why on earth would you want to inflict pain on your dog when you can get the same results pain free? Of course you have to know how to but it's not difficult to learn.



> Some people are very narrow minded and can only see issues one way. Usually young people with not much life experience are quick to judge others and only see things issues the way they want to see issues.


I'm not young. I'm probably the oldest person on this board. There is only one way to see this issue. People use shock collars to shock dogs. No one and I mean no one EVER uses a shock collar NOT to shock a dog.



> E-collars can save a dogs life, but some would rather see their dog run out into the street and get killed by a bus.


Baloney and BS!!!! Dogs are trained every day not to run out in the street and get run over by anything. THey are trained without using coersion or pain. Again, you have to know how to do this but it's not difficult to learn. You have to get over your narrow mindedness and admit there is a better way than the old antiquated way you are using.



> Crying about it on the internet and accusing all people who happen to own E-collars have no love and respect for their dogs is the immature teenager type reaction.


Again, how can you shock an animal you love and respect??? How can you intentionally inflict pain just to get a behavior using pain on an animal you love and respect??


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## claybuster

RawFedDogs said:


> Baloney and BS!!!! Dogs are trained every day not to run out in the street and get run over by anything. THey are trained without using coersion or pain. Again, you have to know how to do this but it's not difficult to learn. You have to get over your narrow mindedness and admit there is a better way than the old antiquated way you are using.



Oh sure, that's why every day, more like every hour a dog runs into a street and gets killed by a car.

My dog has had about 4 near death close calls. Two were possible drowning (once she fell though the ice on a pond far out, she went over a soft spot and went straight through the ice. The other caught up in fast moving current in river and could not get out with out help. Two other separate occasions an E-collar saved her life).

I know, I've been through close calls with my dog and E-collars can indeed save your dogs life.


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## RawFedDogs

claybuster said:


> Oh sure, that's why every day, more like every hour a dog runs into a street and gets killed by a car.


Yes, silly, it's not the same dogs. The greatest majority of dogs in the world have no training at all.



> My dog has had about 4 near death close calls.


Thats weird. I have a 9yo and a 4 1/2yo and NEITHER has had a near death close call.



> Two other separate occasions an E-collar saved her life).


Either you have no training ability or you have no confidence in your training ability. It seems my dogs are safer with my training ability than yours are with the e-collars.



> I know, I've been through close calls with my dog and E-collars can indeed save your dogs life.


E-collars do NOT save lives. Good training saves lives. E-collars are crutches for people too ignorant or to lazy to train their dogs. Take a little time and learn the proper way to train a dog. Don't depend on some torture device to save their lives. What happens when the battery dies??


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## claybuster

CorgiPaws said:


> No, they were burn marks. Two red, swollen burn marks.


I am not doubting what you saw. Yes, E-collars can cause marks if used improperly.




CorgiPaws said:


> You know, it's hard to see it any other way when I see it happen so many times. There is nothing okay with a device that regularly has that effect on dogs. It isn't a one time incident.


No, it does not happen all the time because you say or think it does.




CorgiPaws said:


> I asked people's opinion. What's so wrong with that? I then gave mine. We're all entitled to our own and sharing it doesn't make anyone immature. We differ in what we believe. (very strongly) If you can't handle a debate without getting butt hurt, don't get into one.


I am also entitled to my opinion as you. You are not debating at all, but rather only offering your opinion and want everyone to believe in the same way you think, regardless of discussion. That is not debate, that is promoting Lindsay's own personal political agenda. In this issue, there is no debate on your end because you have nothing to offer other than you feel E-collars only inflict pain and torture and cause burn marks. You haven't offered anything to a debate other than you feel positive training methods are better. You are not debating E-collars, only expressing strong opposition to their use.

I've been around the block a few times. I wasn't born yesterday. I know when somebody is doing nothing more than advocating and promoting their personal agenda speaking out against something. I don't accept your agenda for I feel it is wrong. I've run into the same mindset before and thought process plenty in the past. You want to condemn the whole barrel for the few spoiled apples you happen to run into in life and I for one to do not buy into that type of thinking. It is the same as thinking any Italian in suit must belong to the mafia. Irish people must be drunks. A person from the Mid-East must be a terrorist. All Jews must be Israeli's. All blacks must like to smoke and buy lottery tickets. All people who own E-collars and use them must be sadistic, evil people with the sole purpose of burning their dogs necks with torture devices.
Sorry Lindsay, I'm not buying into your agenda at all because I have more faith in people and I don't condemn the whole barrel with stereotypical type decision making. E-collars are used for various reasons and not everyone using them tortures their dogs like you want people to think. E-collars DO NOT have to hurt and automatically cause burn marks. Yes, they CAN cause pain and hurt but only when used by the owner for that intent to cause pain and hurt. They are only torture devices when used in the wrong hands.


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## claybuster

RawFedDogs said:


> What happens when the battery dies??


The battery has died on me more than one occasion in the field, but then again 99% of the time in the field I never have to hit a button. An E-collar does not need to be on to be effective.


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## claybuster

RawFedDogs said:


> Thats weird. I have a 9yo and a 4 1/2yo and NEITHER has had a near death close call.
> 
> Either you have no training ability or you have no confidence in your training ability. It seems my dogs are safer with my training ability than yours are with the e-collars.




When's the last time you've taken them ice fishing? House dogs and lap dogs
don't run into too many close calls.

Correct, it only "seems" your dogs are safer, but I am fully confident my dogs in any situation, regardless of distraction are far safer with my training than yours. You've got no guarantee, I do...even with a dead battery.


----------



## CorgiPaws

claybuster said:


> I am not doubting what you saw. Yes, E-collars can cause marks if used improperly.


Just getting the facts out there. You stated earlier that they CAN NOT cause burn marks. But clearly you admit here that they do.



claybuster said:


> No, it does not happen all the time because you say or think it does.


I am not ignorant enough to make a claim based on one, two, three, or fifteen incidents. I am stating it happens all the time because I SEE it all the time. At least once a month. Minimum. And these aren't generally the kinds of dogs that are locked up in the back yard all the time. These are dog owners who THINK they're simply training and taking care of them. The kinds of people that invest in good food, healthcare, daycare, etc. thinking that if they spend the time and money they MUST be good owners. 




claybuster said:


> I am also entitled to my opinion as you. You are not debating at all, but rather only offering your opinion and want everyone to believe in the same way you think, regardless of discussion.


I could care less what you believe. I'm not trying to make anyone believe the same as I do, I'm trying to "get it" but I guess I never will. As for you and your beliefs, you're entitled to them. It's not MY pets being shocked because of it. 



claybuster said:


> That is not debate, that is promoting Lindsay's own personal political agenda. In this issue, there is no debate on your end because you have nothing to offer other than you feel E-collars only inflict pain and torture and cause burn marks. You haven't offered anything to a debate other than you feel positive training methods are better. You are not debating E-collars, only expressing strong opposition to their use.


First off, it's L-I-N-S-E-Y. as it says in the signature of every message I post. And no, it's not a big deal. No one spells it right. Ever. 
Second off, a debate is the presentation of an idea, a rebuttle, and so forth. I asked people's opinion, entirely willing to consider what ANY side of the matter had to offer. I don't UNDERSTAND why people use them, I'm trying to see logic in it. Even after hearing your ideas, which make sense to me to an extent, I still don't see the need for them. The idea of t being an easier way to "ensure" behaviors I get. I understand that. I just don't understand why not use a method that doesn't involve the pain.
Third off, you have presented nothing other than a strong confidence in them, for no reason other than "it works".




claybuster said:


> Sorry Lindsay, I'm not buying into your agenda at all because I have more faith in people and I don't condemn the whole barrel with stereotypical type decision making.


I'm a 20-year-old Mormon living in Orem, Utah. I assure you, I have NO "political agenda" and I definately know a thing or two about being stuck in a stereotype. You don't need to teach me anything about that, nor do you need to assume that's the case. You're the FIRST to jump down someone's throat claiming they know nothing about what they are talking about or that they have "no experience" yet you, almighty you, are above all else and MUST know more than anyone else, right?





claybuster said:


> Yes, they CAN cause pain and hurt but only when used by the owner for that intent to cause pain and hurt. They are only torture devices when used in the wrong hands.


I do see this point. I have BY NO MEANS claimed that every person that uses an E-collar will be burned or have horrific wounds left around their necks. I never claimed that that was the intent of the owners. I never claimed that the owners are TRYING to be inhumane. I ask you this:
If I kick my dog in the gut, and it leaves no mark, does that mean it's okay? Or perhaps whip him across the nose with a leather leash? As long as he's mark-free, it must not have been too bad, right?



My point is that I just don't see any REASON to use them. Why not just teach recall without it? You have yet to present anything on this matter. You have mentioned nothing that you can do with the E-collar that you can't do without it with just as good of results.


----------



## claybuster

RawFedDogs said:


> People shock dogs with shock collars. It's the ignorant people who use shock collars who are to blame.


Hey, I think you're finally catching on! See, I knew you had some brain power! Now this is big, try to stay focused if you can...Not all people shock dogs for not all the settings on the collar can deliver a 'shock'. I personally favor a very mild stim just strong enough to raise an eyebrow or ear, but not enough to cause pain. I am not denying the fact you can crank up some heat on an E-collar if that is your intent. Not everybody is evil like some what like you to think.


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## claybuster

CorgiPaws said:


> Just getting the facts out there. You stated earlier that they CAN NOT cause burn marks. But clearly you admit here that they do.


Please go back and find where I made that statement, CAN NOT cause burn marks. Now you putting words in my mouth. You asserted they cause burn marks ALL THE TIME and that is clearly wrong, they do not cause burn marks all the time, only when used improperly. Not everyone uses them improperly
despite what you assert. Maybe they do in Utah, I don't know? Are all people in Utah mean spirited and enjoy harming their pets?

PS: sorry I got your name wrong.


----------



## CorgiPaws

claybuster said:


> They could leave marks (not burn marks) if the collar was on too tight and the prongs were constantly rubbing against the skin.


In reply to someone asking how a collar can burn a dog. So no, I did not put words in your mouth, thanks.




claybuster said:


> You asserted they cause burn marks ALL THE TIME and that is clearly wrong, they do not cause burn marks all the time, only when used improperly.


I said i see it ALL THE TIME. All the time, meaning, on a regular basis. I clearly stated in my post above that I don't think EVERY dog that gets one on is left with marks. You must have missed that part, and been unable to comprehend a simple figure of speech all at the same time! Somehow I'm not suprised...Clearly your hypocritical tendencies are putting words in my mouth.


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## claybuster

I wouldn't put on E-collar on just any dog. Some dogs just aren't suited for them. Take a Yorkie for instance, they are definitely not the breed for an E-collar, and that goes pretty much for the average house dog as well. If you don't have the need, it makes no sense to E-collar train your dog. Some dogs are naturally smarter than other dogs and take to E-collars very well.

A friend from work had a rescue Weimaraner. She ended it getting one of those electric fences, and after the installer was finished he said, BTW there is no guarantee it will work with your type of dog. That is very true. Some dogs are naturally smarter than other dogs and soon realize one quick blast and I'm free despite the electric fence. They will tolerate some discomfort to do something they want to do like chase game. My dog would be the same in that respect, very strong prey drive (birds) and would probably plow through a fence in no time. I don't have an electric fence. My dog is not E-collared 24/7. 98% of her time is spent without an E-collar but she has no objection to wearing one, none whatsoever. And I recall stating my dog does get excited when she sees her E-collar
and that is very true. Linsey had stated she 'doubts that' because before she shifted gears here since the beginning of this discussion, it was E-Collars cause burn marks...end of discussion. Now she admits E-Collars don't necessarily cause burn marks depending upon how they are used. I know E-collars can cause burn marks if set way too high in power, but dogs can also get marks even if the collar is never turned on but too tight around the neck. Prongs can cause rubbing irritation and marks, and those marks need not be intentional burns but caused by an improperly fitting collar.

I have nothing at all against anyone’s positive training methods. Positive techniques are an element of proper E-collar training. I’m not going to chance the great outdoors without the E-collar for my dog off lead for any extended period of time. Too many things can happen and my dogs off lead are never left unattended outdoors. I can keep her close, very close depending upon the situation or she can free range it when I see things are ok and safe to explore and area. I rarely let her free range out of sight though and try to keep a visual on her at all times. 

One of her near death drownings was my fault. I saw the soft spot out on the ice far away, and some birds were hanging around the edges of water on the ice. I wasn’t paying attention and she wondered off to check out the birds…getting closer….closer….Splat and right through. I could have easily recalled her in plenty of time if I was paying attention. Now she is struggling to get out of the water, surrounded by ice, far away from me and I have no shot of helping her come out because of the thin ice around that section. She was about 2 years old at the time and managed to pull her self up after 2 or 3 tries and soft step it back to safety.


----------



## RawFedDogs

claybuster said:


> If you don't have the need, it makes no sense to E-collar train your dog. Some dogs are naturally smarter than other dogs and take to E-collars very well.


The only "need" for an e-collar is ignorance or lazyness of the trainer. There is nothing you can teach with an e-collar than you can't teach with positive methods quicker and sounder by a trainer who is compitent. There are probably 50,000 trainers in the US who can train a dog positively without the use of crutches.



> And I recall stating my dog does get excited when she sees her E-collar and that is very true.


You still can't see it, can you? The dog is getting excited because it is getting ready to go outside. Not because he is getting a torture device attached to his neck.



> I have nothing at all against anyone’s positive training methods. Positive techniques are an element of proper E-collar training.


There is no damn way on the face of the earth you can use an e-collar along with any remote resimblance to positive training! You need to learn what positive training is.



> I’m not going to chance the great outdoors without the E-collar for my dog off lead for any extended period of time.


My dogs go on an off lead walk with me every day through the woods, down by the swamp, and across the pasture. Do they chase wild critters? Heck yes! Do they run off? no, never. Do they break off the chase when I call them, of course. Guess what? Neither has ever in his life had an e-collar attached to him.



> Too many things can happen and my dogs off lead are never left unattended outdoors.


My dogs are never unattended outdoors. THere is no reason for it. Occasionally they will be left for 5 or 10 minutes but nothing every happens.



> I can keep her close, very close depending upon the situation or she can free range it when I see things are ok and safe to explore and area. I rarely let her free range out of sight though and try to keep a visual on her at all times.


My dogs free range every day. Yes they often go out of sight but they will be insite 30 seconds after I call them.



> One of her near death drownings was my fault. I saw the soft spot out on the ice far away, and some birds were hanging around the edges of water on the ice. I wasn’t paying attention and she wondered off to check out the birds…getting closer….closer….Splat and right through. I could have easily recalled her in plenty of time if I was paying attention.


What does that have to do with an e-collar? I can always recall my dogs without one. You just have to properly train them. It's not difficult.



> Now she is struggling to get out of the water, surrounded by ice, far away from me and I have no shot of helping her come out because of the thin ice around that section. She was about 2 years old at the time and managed to pull her self up after 2 or 3 tries and soft step it back to safety.


I'm glad she made it back but the e-collar payed no part in her safety in that case.


----------



## claybuster

RawFedDogs said:


> The only "need" for an e-collar is ignorance or lazyness of the trainer. There is nothing you can teach with an e-collar than you can't teach with positive methods quicker and sounder by a trainer who is compitent. There are probably 50,000 trainers in the US who can train a dog positively without the use of crutches


Just your opinion. E-collars are a tool, not a crutch. That's 50,000 no guarantees as well in not using a E-collar.

Go back to your trainer and tell them you want your money back because your dog bolted into the street into traffic and your recall wasn't full proof.
They'll simply blame you for not enough work after class. If you're the trainer you have no one to blame but yourself then learn the hard way positive training doesn't always work in an instant when you need it to. Most positively trained dogs are spoiled rotten IMO and do what they want and when push comes to shove could care less about their owners.





> You still can't see it, can you? The dog is getting excited because it is getting ready to go outside. Not because he is getting a torture device attached to his neck.


It's only a torture device in your mind. My dog can already be outside without a collar and still have no issues with having her E-collar put on then.
Inside or outside she could care less.





> There is no damn way on the face of the earth you can use an e-collar along with any remote resimblance to positive training! You need to learn what positive training is.


Shows you have no clue. E-collars DO NOT train dogs, people train dogs.
E-collars can only reinforce what the dog already has learned prior (through positive training).




> My dogs go on an off lead walk with me every day through the woods, down by the swamp, and across the pasture. Do they chase wild critters? Heck yes! Do they run off? no, never. Do they break off the chase when I call them, of course. Guess what? Neither has ever in his life had an e-collar attached to him.


Many people have lost their dogs in the forest never to be seen again.





> My dogs are never unattended outdoors. THere is no reason for it. Occasionally they will be left for 5 or 10 minutes but nothing every happens.


That's nice.





> My dogs free range every day. Yes they often go out of sight but they will be insite 30 seconds after I call them.


Wonderful, mine dog would be back in sight in 2 secs.





> What does that have to do with an e-collar? I can always recall my dogs without one. You just have to properly train them. It's not difficult.


Never said that had anything to do with an e-collar, just a story about the day she went through the ice. She happened to have her e-collar on at the time. 




> I'm glad she made it back but the e-collar payed no part in her safety in that case


.

Never said it did. If I was paying closer attention it never would have happen and I stated it was clearly my fault. If I was paying attention it never would have happend because in 1/32 of a sec I can stop her in her tracks, not 30 secs where it would be too late.


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## RawFedDogs

claybuster said:


> Just your opinion. E-collars are a tool, not a crutch. That's 50,000 no guarantees as well in not using a E-collar.


So whats, the E-collar company going to give you if your dog gets hit by a car?



> Go back to your trainer and tell them you want your money back because your dog bolted into the street into traffic and your recall wasn't full proof. They'll simply blame you for not enough work after class.


I trained dogs professionally for 15 years. I was the trainer. And yes, you are correct. If the dog bolts into traffic and doesn't recall, its because there was not enough practice and proofing. No different than an e-collar.



> If you're the trainer you have no one to blame but yourself then learn the hard way positive training doesn't always work in an instant when you need it to. Most positively trained dogs are spoiled rotten IMO and do what they want and when push comes to shove could care less about their owners.


I don't know where you get that. After training thousands of dogs positively, I say it is the opposite. Positive trained dogs are not spoiled. Refusing to inflict pain on a dog is NOT spoiling him. Training without inflicting pain requires a little knowledge but it doesn't take a genious.



> It's only a torture device in your mind.


It is a device designed to inflict pain. That is it's ONLY use. How else would you describe a torture device? It is a crutch for a trainer too lazy to learn and apply correct training methods. You see, pain is an outdated way to train animals. Most all of the modern day professional trainers, not only of dogs, but of wild animals also, use positive methods today. I have used positive training methods to train dogs, cats, rats, mice, birds of prey, and chickens. I have seen gold fish trained using positive methods. I have also taught and helped zoo keepers positively train gorillas, rhino's, elephants, orangs, and vaarious other wild animals in a zoo setting. So don't tell me I have no clue.



> Shows you have no clue. E-collars DO NOT train dogs, people train dogs. E-collars can only reinforce what the dog already has learned prior (through positive training).


No way, Jose. Hehe, I said, don't tell me I have no clue. LOL If you have the knowedge to positively train a dog, you will quickly learn you have no need for crutches. You tell the dog what to do and if he doesn't do it, you shock him? Thats just cruel. Thats a crutch to hide the fact that you don't have the knowedge to motivate your dog to do what is requested every time. Motivation is the key to positive training. You cannot inflict pain and be positive training at the same time.



> Many people have lost their dogs in the forest never to be seen again.


Many (most) people have untrained dogs. Thats how I made my living for 15 years.



> Wonderful, mine dog would be back in sight in 2 secs.


If they were 200 yards away through dense woods, they wouldn't.

All I'm trying to get across to you is you don't need to inflict pain or use coersion to get an animal to present the behavior you wish. With proper knowledge you can motivate him to follow your wishes 100% of the time. I know ... I have done it countless times on many different species of animals.


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## wags

I hate those collars with a passion!
I have a yellow lab who is a barker she is 6 years old now! When I knew no better I decided along with my hubby that since she was such a barker we would try this well known bark collar on her and see the results. 
It was the worst thing we could have ever unknowingly done to this poor dog. We had it on her for a very (and I do mean very) short~ short time. She was in the back yard and I heard this god awful yelp after she barked a cry actually, and I was like my god is that sandi! what the heck oh yeah the shock collar is on her and then she did this screaming peircing cry after barking again! I said my god what the heck is in this thing to make her cry like that! Well that was more than enough for the two of us. I was in shock and cried after feeling I had just tortured the he** out of this poor dog. Which it only and I mean this truthfully happend a couple times and off this terrible torture device went and it was back to the petco I do believe petco that we bought this with me hysterically telling the store they should never ever encourage this product. The most horrible thing ever!
I have learned through this experience gee a simple water bottle that sprays water on the dogs when they are ferociously barking at someone behind the fence (notice the ferocious word haha) well they do tend to bark at folk behind the fence and I get the water bottle and really now all I have to do is say I'm getting the water bottle or just show it to them and they run away haha! Funny 2 of my dogs are labs who willing go to every water source haha! But saying those magic words getting the water bottle or just showing tis ot all 4 of the dogs is a miracle cure!
I wish back then when I got this horrible torture device gee 5 years ago I had known about the water bottle.


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## CorgiPaws

claybuster said:


> Linsey had stated she 'doubts that' because before she shifted gears here since the beginning of this discussion, it was E-Collars cause burn marks...end of discussion. Now she admits E-Collars don't necessarily cause burn marks depending upon how they are used.


I never shifted gears. I never made a single claim that every person that uses them WILL burn their dog. I stated that I see it happen all the time, and that I do not see any point in inflicting pain on an animal, even in the name of "training". It was never "they cause burn marks. the end" It was that I don't understand how people justify the use of such things when they have the potential to do that. I'm sure pleanty of dogs that come to my facility are shocked at home and left without marks. I never claimed every dog will be burned and left with marks. 
I ask you once again: if I go out in the play yard and kick Champ in the gut, but it doesn't leave a mark, is that ok?
Or perhaps if I go whip Lucy, the Boxer mix with us today, with a leather leash for barking, am I justified if it doesn't leave marks?
You know, Charlie is really on my nerves lately, maybe I'll go drag him to a kennel by the ears. That won't leave a mark so it MUST be okay.
Point is, wether you're leaving the marks or not, it's still a shock. It's still painful. So even the owners who use the collars and DON'T leave the horrid burn marks as evidence, are just as bad as the ones that do.



claybuster said:


> Most positively trained dogs are spoiled rotten IMO and do what they want and when push comes to shove could care less about their owners.


This is the most ignorant statement I've ever heard! You think positively trained dogs are spoiled and don't care about their owners. That would mean, transversing this statement that you believe... 'Most negatively trained dogs are diciplined and always listen to their owners and have an undying love for them.'

I can ASSURE you, not only do my dogs LISTEN, but they most definately care. Champ literally saved my life, risking his own, when I was in an armed attack (at the fragile age of nine months old!) and then yesterday PROVED his loyalty in laying next to the couch for a solid 12 hours while my grandfather laid there sicker than sick. Didn't move when the doorbell rang, didn't move when I put his food in his bowl. but you're right, since I never strike or shock my dog, he MUST be spoiled rotten and not give a damn about anything.


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## claybuster

CorgiPaws said:


> You know, Charlie is really on my nerves lately, maybe I'll go drag him to a kennel by the ears. That won't leave a mark so it MUST be okay.


promises promises


----------



## claybuster

CorgiPaws said:


> Point is, wether you're leaving the marks or not, it's still a shock. It's still painful. So even the owners who use the collars and DON'T leave the horrid burn marks as evidence, are just as bad as the ones that do.


It is not painful. I am not denying that it could be painful if that was the owners intent, but in the most common training and in the field, the impulse is hardly felt at all. That is where people get confused. E-collars can go from extremely mild to harsh. I know my E-collar very well and I read the book, and I tried it on myself. They work and they are good training tools IMO. They need not be painful. RFD doesn't understand that concept either. You both have the same viewpoint that they only deliver *shock* and are strictly instruments of torture. All I'm saying it doesn't have to be that way and they need not be the instruments of cruelty.

I paid $350 for my E-collar and beeper (that was retail, I could have done better on eBay) and I feel it was well worth every penny. I paid about 100 extra for the beeper feature which I which I think is really nice. A 1/32 low level impulse on setting 2 and you can put that on my neck and hit the button to your hearts content. It is not painful but you can feel something with no discomfort. I think they're great, but I really only can see them on the Sporting Dogs to be honest with you. It takes a long time and plenty of work (months and months) to do it right, but well worth the effort to read the book and do it right rather than take short cuts. E-Collars do not teach dogs commands. That is where positive training methods are easiest approach with food/praise FIRST (even if that takes months) to know for certain, that a command is instilled in the dogs head. It's simple really, if you can't instill a command prior, and than you can't use an e-collar properly. You need to stop and get the help of a professional first to instill a command
then proceed with the e-collar training. I did plenty well with food/praise positive methods, and I didn't skimp either on the treats during training. She got bacon pan fried nice and crispy! That part of e-collar training took up several months (instilling commands). A month with "come" working say 20 minutes three times a week. Then a month on "stay" same thing, 20 min 3 times a week. Then a month on "whoa", same thing, 20 min 3X every week, etc. Each command you want to teach and instill first you need to work at it until your certain they got it, then the E-collar can back you up should distraction get intense. And it will back you up every time, pain free. You don't HAVE to SHOCK your dog and you don't have to TORTURE your dog and you don't have to BURN your dog with CRUEL EVIL devices. They do work EXCELLENT when you do it right and read the book!


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## claybuster

RawFedDogs said:


> So whats, the E-collar company going to give you if your dog gets hit by a car?


They're going to say you must not have read the book I guess.


----------



## claybuster

RawFedDogs said:


> It is a device designed to inflict pain. That is it's ONLY use. How else would you describe a torture device?


I mentioned a leash can be used as a torture device if that was the owners intent. Linsey had then also mentioned that about a leash. Anyone that would buy a leash to torture their dog with shouldn't own pets. Same thing with the e-collar, if it was purchase to torture they should own pets to begin with. E-collars are really about low-level momentary impulses, not causing pain or discomfort. Yes, they could hurt and those folks shouldn't own pets.
My dog has been e-collared trained for 7 years. If I had to hit a button for a momentary nick impulse 4 times in the past 4 years that would be a lot. But I still don't want to be without the collar while hunting my dog. Outside of hunting she is never e-collared around the house. Yes, you were partially right before RFD about her wanting to go outside. The collar to her primarily represents TIME TO FIND BIRDS! She is a bird dog and wants to hunt. She takes to the collar like white on rice and has no objections to it whatsoever.


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## claybuster

This IMO is probably one of the best "Bark" collars available today in the market. Don't wast your time with a cheap collar from Wal-Mart.

bark limiter


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## CorgiPaws

claybuster said:


> This IMO is probably one of the best "Bark" collars available today in the market. Don't wast your time with a cheap collar from Wal-Mart.
> 
> bark limiter


I don't think anyone here is in the market for a torture device. 
At least, I hope they care about their dogs enough not to be.


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## EnglishBullTerriers

sganow said:


> Tried a bark collar a few years ago, hated it, threw it away. It was cruel!


Same here. I tried it once on Titus, cause the more you talked to him to get him to stop barking, the more he barked. I threw mine out as well. I do however use the regular collar that has a small section of chain on it, so when your dog pulls he doesn't pull out or get hurt. It works like a choke collar with less pain. Plus, my EBT's have odd shaped necks and heads and they slip collars easily. That is the main reason I like them. I usually don't even use it as a choke unless the dog runs to the end and finds out he can't go any further! 
I do have to say though, that the only kind of 'shock collar' that I would ever consider would be the one with the beep and the multi level shocks. The only reason that I would even consider this one is, you can always use the beep as a respond noise and only use the shock if it didn't work. BUT, even that, I wouldn't use. That is only something that I would consider if I had to resort to it.


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## claybuster

Hypothetical (probably happens every day):

Young couple or single parent, just moved into apartment building, everything is going great, close to work, other kids around for the little ones to play with,
etc. And there is a new addition to the family, a new dog, quite possible a beautiful rescue! Time goes by, the dog is great, so nice to have, the kid loves the dog now beloved family member.

You notice a few dirty looks from your neighbors. It turns out, after kids are dropped off at school or daycare, you're off to work, the dog is yapping his brains out driving everybody in the building bonkers, and they're starting to make phone calls. You get the knock on the door and the bad news from the manager or landlord. Either the dog has to go or you have to leave if you can't get the barking under control. Now it's panic time and the pressure is on, what to do?

Well, if you listen to Linsey and RFD and all those on this list that want you to believe they are nothing more than torture devices rather than the potential to be an excellent training aid and the best option, you could be making a mistake. Most people in the above scenario would most likely give up the dog as opposed to a relocation and new place. Do you realize what happens to most pound dogs?
They get euthanized because there are too many dogs at these dog pounds and finding a new home for the dog is not all that easy.

I say don't listen to folks that have nothing more to offer than "torture device" and do something for the dog that could save him from the needle on the cold table. A good bark collar is automatic and self correcting. The dog will learn in due time to correct himself and nuisance barking for no apparent reason other than nobodies home can become a thing of the past. Don't get a cheap tonal collar from Wal-Mart for 30. Spend the 100 and get a nice one.
It could save your dogs life!


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## RawFedDogs

claybuster said:


> Hypothetical (probably happens every day):


Another hypothetical (probably happens every day):

Young couple or single parent just moved into, etc ..... they come home after work to find burn marks all over their dog's neck who has now gone crazy and can never be rehabilitated.

True store: My brother has a neat little black lab named Hershel. He bought a bark collar for him. Came home from work the next day and Hershel was in the yard frozen in place in the sitting position. Seems the rattling of Hershel's hame tag and rabies tag would set off the bark coller. Everytime he moved, he got shocked. He had no choice but to freeze in place.

Another true story: My sister had a boxer. He was contained inside an invisible fence. Seems the boxer decided to bolt through the fence and got hit by a car and killed.



> Well, if you listen to Linsey and RFD and all those on this list that want you to believe they are nothing more than torture devices rather than the potential to be an excellent training aid and the best option, you could be making a mistake.


Nice of you to think you have espn and can read my mind. Actually, you teach the dog not to bark using positive training methods. Just as effective and no pain involved.



> Most people in the above scenario would mostly likely give up the dog as opposed to a relocation and new place. Do you realize what happens to most pound dogs?


This is where you are being close minded. You are saying either shock them or let them bark. There are positive ways to keep a dog from barking.


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## claybuster

RawFedDogs said:


> True store: My brother has a neat little black lab named Hershel. He bought a bark collar for him. Came home from work the next day and Hershel was in the yard frozen in place in the sitting position. Seems the rattling of Hershel's hame tag and rabies tag would set off the bark coller. Everytime he moved, he got shocked. He had no choice but to freeze in place.


Did your brother live in Northern Canada? Do you realize how could it has to be for a dog to freeze in their tracks. How do you know the dog just didn't die from natural causes and then froze? Hey if you say it's true, ok I'll believe you for your word, but the whole things sounds a bit sketchy to say the least.
The impulses given from a bark collar are not strong enough to immobilize dogs, even if it was a constant, they can still move around. That's why something doesn't gel with you story...sounds more like a case of neglect?
The next day??? What does that mean...the next day. Nobody happened to check on the dog in a rather long time period it seems. Could the bark collar be unfairly blamed here when there could be other factors at play?


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## claybuster

RawFedDogs said:


> .
> Another true story: My sister had a boxer. He was contained inside an invisible fence. Seems the boxer decided to bolt through the fence and got hit by a car and killed.


Now that I can believe. They even tell you may not work on all breeds.
The impulse from a fence is not strong enough to deter some dogs, and the reason e-collars have higher settings is not to purposely inflict torture, but rather for the reason some dogs are ultra-sensitive, and some dogs are not.
You need to step it up to a level that will be noticeable but not painful or cause discomfort. When first testing for this you start at the lowest impulse level and work up. You look for the quizzical that is enough to perk the ears up or an eyebrow yet not enough to cause discomfort. That would then be the threshold level you start to work with (that setting or lower). COMMANDS MUST BE INSTILLED FIRST!


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## RawFedDogs

claybuster said:


> Hey if you say it's true, ok I'll believe you for your word, but the whole things sounds a bit sketchy to say the least.


It was told to me by my brother to be a true story. Hershel froze in place because every time he moved the least little bit he got shocked because of the tags rattling. The only way he could avoid shock was to not move a muscle.



> The impulses given from a bark collar are not strong enough to immobilize dogs, even if it was a constant,


He wasn't immobilized by the collar. He immobilized himself so he wouldn't get shocked.



> The next day??? What does that mean...the next day.


Next day means the next day after he bought the bark collar. The first time he used it before he left for work.


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## BabyHusky

I understand what clay is saying that if used right, an e-collar can be effective. would I use it? no. I prefer positive training....granted...my pup doesn't go running, hunting in the forest like clay's so a little different. 

what I don't get...and this goes for many things..not just e-collars. there are settings on those things that WILL hurt the dog. yes some dogs are more sensitive than others but some of those settings are meant to hurt no matter the dog. straight up pavlov conditioning with pain. why even have those settings? its like the makers are accommodating the morons that do not read the manual to inflict pain on their dogs. yes a leash can be dangerous if the owner wants it to be but hell...a spoon can be dangerous. everything is potentially dangerous. e-collars are made to give a shock. i just don't see why they need to have settings for a painful shock if that's "technically" not what its suppose to do. 

as for RFD's story about the dog that stood still, totally true. happened to my neighbors dog when I was young. I used to always throw some dog biscuits to the dog because he was adorable. He would run up to the brick wall that separated us and sit...waiting for me to give him one. Well one day, after I gave my dogs their treats, I climbed the wall to give him one and he didn't run up! He was laying on the floor. I thought he was sick so i jumped down into the yard and ran over to him...thats when i realized he was choosing not to move so he wouldn't get shocked. He had about 3-4 tags on him and the sounds were setting off the collar. the owners were shocked and threw that crap away asap. it was soooo sad to see him like that.


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## CorgiPaws

claybuster said:


> Well, if you listen to Linsey and RFD and all those on this list that want you to believe they are nothing more than torture devices rather than the potential to be an excellent training aid and the best option, you could be making a mistake.


You're not only assuming false things about me, but being incredibly ignorant about the whole discussion. You're assuming that it's either one of two outcomes: the dog continues to bark, causing problems, or use a shock collar to fix it. You are so ignorantly forgetting the option of using positive training to end the barking, or perhaps working on keeping your dog busy and more relaxed while you're gone. I know dogs well enough to understand that this is a separation anxiety issue, not simply a barking issue. The first thing i'd do, is work on that. I've never put any shock collar on any of my dogs, and none of them bark. 




claybuster said:


> Most people in the above scenario would most likely give up the dog as opposed to a relocation and new place. Do you realize what happens to most pound dogs?
> They get euthanized because there are too many dogs at these dog pounds and finding a new home for the dog is not all that easy.


Do NOT be so ignorant as to place me in that category. We had serious barking issues with my Beagle, Max, as a puppy. I worked with him, no shock, no pain involved. 
My shepherd mix, Champ, is a rescue that had SEVERE separation anxiety resulting in constant barking while we were away. I worked with him, no shock, no pain involved. 
Grissom is just naturally perfect. 

Not once has any pet I've ever had wether it be dog, cat, rabbit, guinea pig, turtle, rat, mouse, etc. has EVER ended up in a shelter. Pets are a lifetime commitment.



claybuster said:


> The dog will learn in due time to correct himself and nuisance barking for no apparent reason other than nobodies home can become a thing of the past.


Question is will he learn before or after he's severely injured. Probably after, and it will be enotionally damaging to the dog, and now you have trust issues to work with. That means you have to either man up and learn the proper ways to train, because your shock collar won't fix this problem. 


Claybuster, you have turned this from being a discussion on the safety and humanity of these devices, to attacking my (and RFD's) integrity with dogs. You're making us out to be people who will give up on our dogs, and throw them in shelters. You know you have no REAL argument for the collars and are resulting to assuming we're terrible people who can't work with our own animals. 
We have both testified of our dogs training. We've testified of their great recall, and that there is no need for the damn things on their necks. 
You just keep coming back saying they save your dogs life. You have yet to come up with any response to any actual questions. 
This thread is pointless now, and I'm hoping you will drop it, and allow others to give thier opinions, with real educated responses other than "i shock my dog to save her life" which is all you have to say.
You're ignorant and undereducated in many aspects of dogs, be it training or nutrition. That, I can deal with. What really irks me about you is that you assume you know everything about everyone. So think again before you say that I would give my pets up before I'd train them properly.


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## claybuster

BabyHusky said:


> ...what I don't get...and this goes for many things..not just e-collars. there are settings on those things that WILL hurt the dog. yes some dogs are more sensitive than others but some of those settings are meant to hurt no matter the dog. ...




I wondered that myself about why have the higher settings, you really don't need them once you found the right level to stay at. I guess it is not so much just a sensitivity issue but also a stubbornness issue as well. Best way to describe it there are certain distractions than even when set on level 2
for a momentary impulse (that is a preset time of 1/32 of sec regardless of how long you hold the button) my dog would be willing to blow off if what’s distracting proves more interesting. Levels that cause no discomfort may not be enough to deter your dog from advancing should say another animal be approaching. At that point I would switch button and use continuous stim where it will last 1/2 sec, or 1 sec, etc. If that doesn't take her off the distraction, I would bump up to the next level of stim and go back to the momentary nick. That is break point that would turn my dog around and bring her directly back regardless of the distraction.

Yes, there are settings on the collar that will hurt your dog and could easily cause marks over a short amount of time. That would only happen if a person is constantly zapping their dog in a cruel like manner. Even if I have to bump up a notch to a higher setting and use a 'nick' that will be felt, that one time is not enough in itself to cause burn marks. My dog listens very well and you get to the point where you never hit a button.


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## claybuster

CorgiPaws said:


> Claybuster, you have turned this from being a discussion on the safety and humanity of these devices, to attacking my (and RFD's) integrity with dogs. ...


Well, I would think that anybody reading this thread knows you and RFD had initiated the 'attacks on integrity'. This thread is more or less "baiting" because anyone that jumped in on this thread to discuss bark collars and E-collars as are going to be slammed and everyone knows that. 

Would you like to see the issue where everyone just thinks the same?

I'll respect your wishes and won't discuss it any further (in this thread) so it can go back to just being a slam bark collar and e-collar thread if that's what you want. I can tell by your words this whole thing gets you very upset and it was never my intent cause you any grief.

Just in closing I would like to say something about comments being thrown around in this thread like ignorant and lazy and for those that may be reading....don't be fooled. There are no quick fixes and e-collars are not a miracle cure. It takes time, dedication, and it is a commitment to do it properly. The ignorant and lazy are the ones no doubt abusing their dogs and looking for quick fixes. Hey, thanks for reading, take care all. It's officially now lets all think the same thread!


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## RawFedDogs

claybuster said:


> If that doesn't take her off the distraction, I would bump up to the next level of stim and go back to the momentary nick. That is break point that would turn my dog around and bring her directly back regardless of the distraction.


So let me see if I understand this correctly. You keep bumping up the pain level until the dog obeys your orders? Wouldn't it be better if your dog was well enough trained just to follow your cue the first time without the necessity of you inflicting pain?



> My dog listens very well and you get to the point where you never hit a button.


If your dog really listened to you, you wouldn't need the collar. You obviously don't have confidence in your dogs devotion to you or respect of you or you would just throw away the collar. I don't think you get that point.


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## CorgiPaws

claybuster said:


> I'll respect your wishes and won't discuss it any further (in this thread) so it can go back to just being a slam bark collar and e-collar thread if that's what you want. I can tell by your words this whole thing gets you very upset and it was never my intent cause you any grief.


It's not a matter of slamming those who use them or those who don't. 
I'm not "very upset" I just think you've strayed far from the topic in implying that those who don't believe in the use of these collars are the people who surrender their pets. I assume all involved in such a forum as dogfoodchat are animal lovers, and being an animal (dog) lover, I do take that kind of implication personal. 

Do I believe in the collars? no. Do I think there are better ways to train? many. Do I think under any circumstance inflicting pain on an animal is justified? With the exception of absoutely necessary medical operations, no. 
Those are my views. My beliefs on the matter. 

The value of this thread has depleated due to all involved, and as far as I'm concerned, discussion closed unless someone can provide a reasonable argument for the use of the shock collars. You, Claybuster, have yet to do so in my mind and there's no need for everyone to continue repeating themselves over and over.


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## Vivian

*spray bottle instead of training colar*

I have a lab that just barks to bark when she needs anything.And I have tried training and found just a good old spray bottle.All you need to do is say no bark to them and then show them the bottle of water I did that 3 times and on the 4 th time I sprayed her in the face and you would have thought I poured a bucket of water on her( this is the dog that goes swimming at least 6 or 7 times a day)we have an in ground pool so they can walk in anytime they want.Now all I have to do is just pick the bottle up and she stops barking.And again I have 3 hard headed labs.IT WORKS!!!!


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## EnglishBullTerriers

Vivian said:


> I have a lab that just barks to bark when she needs anything.And I have tried training and found just a good old spray bottle.All you need to do is say no bark to them and then show them the bottle of water I did that 3 times and on the 4 th time I sprayed her in the face and you would have thought I poured a bucket of water on her( this is the dog that goes swimming at least 6 or 7 times a day)we have an in ground pool so they can walk in anytime they want.Now all I have to do is just pick the bottle up and she stops barking.And again I have 3 hard headed labs.IT WORKS!!!!


The spray bottle is my favorite method also. You can 'intensify' what you are saying from a distance. No pain involved, no yelling, no scaring the crap out of the dog. Just plain NO and if it happens again, NO and a spray in the general direction of the dog. That usually works! There have been a number of times that the spray doesn't even reach the dog, but the thought that something was flying at them gets their attention off what they are doing!
I think it works, but I know that there are still some people that think it is a horrible thing to do to a dog! Oh well, can't always get it right, right?


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## Doc

I'd rather spray da dam cats! Hehehehehehehehe.


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## EnglishBullTerriers

Doc said:


> I'd rather spray da dam cats! Hehehehehehehehe.


Hehe!! That does sound like fun! :biggrin:


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## CorgiPaws

EnglishBullTerriers said:


> The spray bottle is my favorite method also. You can 'intensify' what you are saying from a distance. No pain involved, no yelling, no scaring the crap out of the dog. Just plain NO and if it happens again, NO and a spray in the general direction of the dog. That usually works! There have been a number of times that the spray doesn't even reach the dog, but the thought that something was flying at them gets their attention off what they are doing!
> I think it works, but I know that there are still some people that think it is a horrible thing to do to a dog! Oh well, can't always get it right, right?


Though i personally do not use this method at home, every daycare I've ever worked at uses this method to correct behaviors, and I feel it's far more acceptable than any bark collar. 
Some dogs like it, and it even works on them, it just serves as a "distraction" to divert their attention. 

Aiming for the paws works best, in a lot of dogs.


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## DaneMama

Anyone here use or believe in clicker training?


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## RawFedDogs

danemama08 said:


> Anyone here use or believe in clicker training?


I taught clicker training for about 5 or 6 years.


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## DaneMama

I use the training collar like a clicker. 

I associated one tone as a positive ("loaded" with treats...as in beep then treat, beep then treat, and so on). 

I associated another tone as a negative sound (like a "no" or whatever your "no" word is...), and they would not get treated or praised. Three seconds after the negative tone is a "shock" (that is optional-if you continue to hold the button down). I keep the level down at 3 (I've tried it on myself and it feels like a poke with a pen-absolutely no pain), I would compare it to when a dog is pulling on a leash and you do a quick tug to get their attention. I tried the higher settings (8 is the highest), and only until it got up to level 7 or 8 did it hurt me (but I would still not use the settings that caused me pain).

I use the remote to use the different tones. As soon as the dog followed a command, I would beep then treat, beep then treat, repeat. Soon treats were not needed.

Whenever the dog would not follow a command (ie. not sit when asked, etc), I would use the negative tone but not the shock. If they would continue to not listen, they would get the negative tone and then the "shock" but I feel "poke" is more appropriate. We would try the command again until it was done correctly.

I found that the "shock" collar worked great, because even though a clicker works wonders, you cannot click a dog for good behavior when they are 50 yards away. If I see good behavior from across the dog park, etc...positive tone. Bad behavior...negative tone. We don't even use the "shock" anymore (only took about 3 times for her to understand that the negative tone and "poke" means business).

I see it as a tool, not a torture device.

I can see why people would think that people like me use it because we are lazy...that is your opinion. I feel that I use it because it works, and makes training with my dogs easier...and the best part WITHOUT PAIN. 

We only put the collar on when we go out to dog parks and off leash at this point. Usually end up turning it off, but keeping it on her.

I would say that we are thrilled that we can take our wolf hybrid dog to the middle of the forest and have complete recall with her, even with the ultimate roaming instinct.


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## RawFedDogs

danemama08 said:


> I use the training collar like a clicker.


You cannot under any circumstances use a shock collar like a clicker. They are polar opposites of each other.



> I associated one tone as a positive ("loaded" with treats...as in beep then treat, beep then treat, and so on).
> 
> I associated another tone as a negative sound (like a "no" or whatever your "no" word is...), and they would not get treated or praised. Three seconds after the negative tone is a "shock" (that is optional-if you continue to hold the button down). I keep the level down at 3 (I've tried it on myself and it feels like a poke with a pen-absolutely no pain), I would compare it to when a dog is pulling on a leash and you do a quick tug to get their attention. I tried the higher settings (8 is the highest), and only until it got up to level 7 or 8 did it hurt me (but I would still not use the settings that caused me pain).


What you are describing in no way resembles clicker training. Clicker training is 100% positive and can be no other way. There is no positive punishment administered to a dog during clicker training under any circumstances.



> I use the remote to use the different tones. As soon as the dog followed a command, I would beep then treat, beep then treat, repeat. Soon treats were not needed.


You need to take some clicker training classes and read a few books to learn what clicker training is all about. You need to learn learning principles and how a dog's brain works. You need to learn about their "culture". You have a lot to learn before you can truly train a dog.



> Whenever the dog would not follow a command (ie. not sit when asked, etc), I would use the negative tone but not the shock. If they would continue to not listen, they would get the negative tone and then the "shock" but I feel "poke" is more appropriate. We would try the command again until it was done correctly.


This would never ever under any circumstances be used in clicker training. It is entirely unnecessary and serves no useful purpose.



> I found that the "shock" collar worked great, because even though a clicker works wonders, you cannot click a dog for good behavior when they are 50 yards away.


If you have done the proper work up until that point, there is no need to.



> If I see good behavior from across the dog park, etc...positive tone. Bad behavior...negative tone. We don't even use the "shock" anymore (only took about 3 times for her to understand that the negative tone and "poke" means business).


This is not clicker training. I don't care what you say, shocking your dog is cruel and unnecessary. It demonstrates you have no clue about how to properly train an animal.



> I see it as a tool, not a torture device.


Of course you do but you are wrong.



> I can see why people would think that people like me use it because we are lazy...that is your opinion.


If you weren't lazy you would tale the time and expend the eneergy to learn the proper way to train a dog without inflicting pain. I bet you even claim to love your dog.



> I feel that I use it because it works, and makes training with my dogs easier...and the best part WITHOUT PAIN.


Yes, it works. Shock me and i'll do what you say.



> We only put the collar on when we go out to dog parks and off leash at this point. Usually end up turning it off, but keeping it on her.


I can and have taken my dogs to various dog parks without a shock collar and had absolutely not one problem. You are using a shock collar as a crutch to hide the fact you have no training ability.



> I would say that we are thrilled that we can take our wolf hybrid dog to the middle of the forest and have complete recall with her, even with the ultimate roaming instinct.


You could do that without a collar if you knew how to train a dog. I have called my dogs off a deer chase and a rabbit chase more than once. No shock collar, no pinch collar, no choke chain. Just good training.


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## DaneMama

RawFedDogs said:


> You cannot under any circumstances use a shock collar like a clicker. They are polar opposites of each other.


I stated that I use a "shock" collar *LIKE* a clicker...not exactly but similarly. Obviously I know that they are two different things.

They are very similar in concept if you put you mind at work and think about how I described the way I work with the collar.




> What you are describing in no way resembles clicker training. Clicker training is 100% positive and can be no other way. There is no positive punishment administered to a dog during clicker training under any circumstances.


I have taken several classes and trained all of my dogs with clicker training. I know what it is and how it works. I have always used a "no" sound to let the dog know that they did not do what was asked. Just like the use of a positive tone (the click) to reinforce desired behavior.




> You need to take some clicker training classes and read a few books to learn what clicker training is all about. You need to learn learning principles and how a dog's brain works. You need to learn about their "culture". You have a lot to learn before you can truly train a dog.


Like I stated above. I have taken the classes for clicker training. I have also taken CE classes for my job about animal behavior. Dog behavior classes are constantly changing, so I am sure there a few things that you should learn as well. I have been around a lot of trainers in my lifetime...some are great and others are horrible. Claiming to be a trainer for 15 years means absolutely nothing to me. 





> This would never ever under any circumstances be used in clicker training. It is entirely unnecessary and serves no useful purpose.


So you are saying that undesired behavior be completely ignored? I personally believe that a dog needs to know when they are not doing something right. IE a "no" word or sound, hence the negative tone on the collar.




> This is not clicker training. I don't care what you say, shocking your dog is cruel and unnecessary. It demonstrates you have no clue about how to properly train an animal.


I know that its not exactly like clicker training. They are two different, but similar things. Thank you again for repeating yourself.




> Of course you do but you are wrong.


Classic. All I see you post up in rebuttle on this forum is "you're wrong, you're wrong, you're wrong" and nothing that backs up that statement. Been seeing that "skill" from you for nearly a year. Kudos to you.




> If you weren't lazy you would tale the time and expend the eneergy to learn the proper way to train a dog without inflicting pain. I bet you even claim to love your dog.


Like I stated in my previous post...it is not painful. I tried it on myself. No pain involved in the settings that we use. Maybe you need to go back and work on some reading comphrension skills. 

And further...being hurtful just throws yourself under the bus. It shows to me (and to others I am sure) that you lack how to be a good at debating. Just stop. Its unbecoming. Be an adult and stick to the debate. And I do love my dogs, very much...and they love me in return. I see it everyday. I cannot believe that you have the audacity to say that I don't just because I use a "shock" collar. 




> Yes, it works. Shock me and i'll do what you say.


Yes..."shock" without pain. I think you are getting mixed up in the idea of being shocked and it being painful. If you tried it on yourself I'm sure that you would understand where I am coming from. Like I stated in my previous post...its like a "POKE" equivalent to a tug on a leash. Not at all painful.




> I can and have taken my dogs to various dog parks without a shock collar and had absolutely not one problem. You are using a shock collar as a crutch to hide the fact you have no training ability.


Again with being hurtful and straying away from the debate. Kudos to you for not needing one...you have Danes right? One of the easiest dogs to train, I know because we have a few. A wolf hybrid? Not so easy. 

And I'm sorry that you feel that I have no training ability...I can tell you that YOU are wrong on that. You state that you have been a trainer for 15 years...well I have seen nothing that backs you up in the slightest bit as of yet. If you are so passionate about training...how bout you share your techniques instead of being hurtful and petty? 




RawFedDogs said:


> You could do that without a collar if you knew how to train a dog. I have called my dogs off a deer chase and a rabbit chase more than once. No shock collar, no pinch collar, no choke chain. Just good training.


Me too...but then again I know for a fact that you have never owned a wolf hybrid dog


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## RawFedDogs

danemama08 said:


> I stated that I use a "shock" collar *LIKE* a clicker...not exactly but similarly. Obviously I know that they are two different things.


They are not even similar. A clicker tells a dog he has done good and good things are getting ready to happen to him. A shock collar regardless of how you use it is a device that will hurt him. When he hears a tone coming from it, he is hearing a tone coming from a device that can and often does have a very negative impact on him.



> They are very similar in concept if you put you mind at work and think about how I described the way I work with the collar.


Eventhough you sometimes use the shock collar as a positive with the dog, you also use the same device as a negative. There is no room for negative reinforcement in clicker training. All animals can be trained without using any negative feedback.



> I have taken several classes and trained all of my dogs with clicker training. I know what it is and how it works. I have always used a "no" sound to let the dog know that they did not do what was asked. Just like the use of a positive tone (the click) to reinforce desired behavior.


Many people use the word "no" or "wrong" when clicker training. These words are always used in a normal tone of voice. Nothing harsh at all. I find it unnecessary and don't use them at all. The dog knows he has done wrong when he doesn't get the click. If you don't interrupt his concentration with useless words, he will usually continue trying until he gets it right.



> Like I stated above. I have taken the classes for clicker training. I have also taken CE classes for my job about animal behavior. Dog behavior classes are constantly changing, so I am sure there a few things that you should learn as well. I have been around a lot of trainers in my lifetime...some are great and others are horrible. Claiming to be a trainer for 15 years means absolutely nothing to me.


Yes, you are correct. I have seen some pretty poor trainers who have been at it for over 30 years. So let me add that I have attended at least 30 seminars, read probably 50 books (some good, some not so good) and have worked with or consulted with many of the best trainers in the country. I'm sure you have kept up with me and sometime or other on here have seen the list of other animals besides dogs I have trained. I do know how to train animals. I know how to train them using 100% positive techniques and never use negatives in any way.



> So you are saying that undesired behavior be completely ignored?


Yes, absolutely. Unless the behavior you are teaching is to eliminate that particular undesired behavior.



> I personally believe that a dog needs to know when they are not doing something right. IE a "no" word or sound, hence the negative tone on the collar.


Again, when he hears the negative tone from the collar, he is hearing something coming from a device that can have very negative consequences to him. Thats different than a calm "no" from a trainer he trusts and knows will not hurt him under any circumstances.



> I know that its not exactly like clicker training. They are two different, but similar things. Thank you again for repeating yourself.


But they are not even similar. The ONLY thing that is similar is when he ears the positive tone telling him he did right. However that tone is coming from a device that can have negative consequences thus is not nearly as effective. Another thing you mentioned in your previous post is that you seemed to be proud at how fast you could eliminate the treats. Clicker training is not a race to eliminate treats. Treats are eliminated when the time to do so arrives.



> Classic. All I see you post up in rebuttle on this forum is "you're wrong, you're wrong, you're wrong" and nothing that backs up that statement. Been seeing that "skill" from you for nearly a year. Kudos to you.


One definition of torture is _"extreme anguish of body or mind; agony"_. I think shocking a dog's neck fits that definition particularly when its done multiple times. Anytime you punish a dog in any way because he did not perform a behavior you asked of him is wrong. It's totaly unnecessary. You can teach a dog any behavior without it.



> Like I stated in my previous post...it is not painful. I tried it on myself. No pain involved in the settings that we use. Maybe you need to go back and work on some reading comphrension skills.


I have had shock therapy on sore muscles in my neck several times and by no stretch of the imagination can it be called a positive experience. By no stretch of the imagination can a shock from a dog collar be a positive experience so why use it? You cannot use positive training and coersive training at the same time. The two cannot habitate the same space. All the advantages of positive training is wiped out by one coersive act. Trust is the foundation of positive training. The dog HAS to know that nothing negative will happen to him if he gets it wrong. If he suspects you will harm him with a negative act, he cannot learn nearly as well and as fast as a dog who KNOWS no harm will come to him no matter what.



> And further...being hurtful just throws yourself under the bus. It shows to me (and to others I am sure) that you lack how to be a good at debating. Just stop. Its unbecoming. Be an adult and stick to the debate. And I do love my dogs, very much...and they love me in return. I see it everyday. I cannot believe that you have the audacity to say that I don't just because I use a "shock" collar.


You are absolutely correct. I should not have said that although I believe it from the bottom of my heart. I have seen theories that dogs don't love humans or each other. Love is not an emotion they are capable of. They act in whichever way will make life more pleasant for them. If demonstrating behaviors that we interpet as "love" causes their life to be more pleasant then thats what they do. That is why animals that are treated less than ideal will behave like that are perfectly happy and love their masters unconditionally. I'm not saying I completely buy into that theory but it does warrant some merit. 



> Yes..."shock" without pain. I think you are getting mixed up in the idea of being shocked and it being painful. If you tried it on yourself I'm sure that you would understand where I am coming from. Like I stated in my previous post...its like a "POKE" equivalent to a tug on a leash. Not at all painful.


They are not positive experiences. They deminish any postiive reinforcement you give during training. THey are entirely unnecessary and serve no purpose except the releive frustration of the trainer. If you have to give a tug on a leash to get attention, you could benefit from more training yourself. You have probably seen me say that I don't use a leash in the majority of my training. Holding attention and motivation are the keys to good training. I teach sit, down, stay, come, go to your place, give it, take it, leave it, and more I can't think of right now all without the use of a leash. A leach tug is not available to me.

Again with being hurtful and straying away from the debate. Kudos to you for not needing one...you have Danes right? One of the easiest dogs to train, I know because we have a few. A wolf hybrid? Not so easy. 



> And I'm sorry that you feel that I have no training ability...I can tell you that YOU are wrong on that. You state that you have been a trainer for 15 years...well I have seen nothing that backs you up in the slightest bit as of yet. If you are so passionate about training...how bout you share your techniques instead of being hurtful and petty?


Ok, you are right again. I should not have said you have no training ability. I don't know you and I don't know how much you have. I am correct in saying that a shock collar is a crutch. It is a completely unnecessary device that has negative connotations to the dog. Millions upon millions of dogs have been trained without one. If millions of others can do it, you should be able to also.

About sharing my techniques ... it would take a book to do that and I don't have the time to write one. It wouldn't be that much different from many books you can get now. I am always happy to answer questions like "how do you teach a dog to do ________ with clicker training?" Also in my mind it is very difficult if not impossible to teach someone clicker training if you are not there to watch them while they do it. Everyone makes little small but very costly mistakes when learning clicker training. Timing is critical, tone of voice is critical, attitude of both the animal and trainer is critical. There are many little small nuances that are very important such as the exact motion of your hand during a hand signal. People are often vague in their hand signals until they work with someone experienced. You can get the basics down by reading a book. You can learn more from a good trainer and even more for an excellent trainer. Sorry, I didn't mean to ramble ... ill shut up about this. :smile:



> Me too...but then again I know for a fact that you have never owned a wolf hybrid dog


Ahhh, but I have trained many wild animals using 100% positive methods.


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## DaneMama

First off, I would like to say thank you for putting some "meat" to your arguement. Really makes you seem more knowledgable yourself.



> They are not even similar. A clicker tells a dog he has done good and good things are getting ready to happen to him. A shock collar regardless of how you use it is a device that will hurt him. When he hears a tone coming from it, he is hearing a tone coming from a device that can and often does have a very negative impact on him.


So if the collar NEVER causes any sort of pain...how is the dog supposed to magically know that its a torture device that causes pain? The negative impact that comes from it, when used correctly is only a cue to them him that he didn't get the command right, not torture and pain. How is that negative impact any different than a "no" word or sound?



> Eventhough you sometimes use the shock collar as a positive with the dog, you also use the same device as a negative. There is no room for negative reinforcement in clicker training. All animals can be trained without using any negative feedback.


Like I said before, I use the collar *LIKE* a clicker...not exactly but similarly. I have taken the clicker training classes before...*EVERY* single one of them used a "no" word or sound if the command was not done correctly. How is the "no" tone any different? 



> Many people use the word "no" or "wrong" when clicker training. These words are always used in a normal tone of voice. Nothing harsh at all. I find it unnecessary and don't use them at all. The dog knows he has done wrong when he doesn't get the click. If you don't interrupt his concentration with useless words, he will usually continue trying until he gets it right.


There is absolutely nothing harsh about the negative or "no" tone on the collar. Just a different sounding tone that they associate not getting a treat or praise.

I have also condition trained dogs to learn things on their own, with no need for commands at all. But when it comes to training a wolf dog that has the innate behavior to roam, not to...conditional training is not the most effective IMO.



> Yes, you are correct. I have seen some pretty poor trainers who have been at it for over 30 years. So let me add that I have attended at least 30 seminars, read probably 50 books (some good, some not so good) and have worked with or consulted with many of the best trainers in the country. I'm sure you have kept up with me and sometime or other on here have seen the list of other animals besides dogs I have trained. I do know how to train animals. I know how to train them using 100% positive techniques and never use negatives in any way.


Thank you for giving me some back ground about your history in training. This helps but still gives me little to go on. I have no doubt that you have a *LOT* of knowledge on training, but that does not mean to me that you are a good trainer. Having knowledge about training does not automatically make you a good trainer. Knowledgable...yes...good? Not necessarily. 

I am also happy to know that you have been able to train many animals. That is awesome. Its really hard to believe that you have never said NO to an animal!!! But that is great that you have been able to do so much, without ever having to say NO 



> Yes, absolutely. Unless the behavior you are teaching is to eliminate that particular undesired behavior.


Right there. Thank you. The undesired behavior in this case is running away. Found her 10 miles away one night completely exhausted. We were lucky to have her back alive. So you see...it could not be ignored.



> Again, when he hears the negative tone from the collar, he is hearing something coming from a device that can have very negative consequences to him. Thats different than a calm "no" from a trainer he trusts and knows will not hurt him under any circumstances.


Yet again....how does a dog know that a device will cause pain if has never done so? Dogs are not born with the knowledge that a collar that makes noises will cause pain. They are shown that they cause pain by people who misuse them. If a training collar is used correctly it should never cause pain, again repeating myself. The very negative consequences that you are believing to happen do not IF THE COLLAR IS USED CORRECTLY!!!

A negative tone is no different than a calm "no" from a trainer if the dog knows that the collar has never caused pain. 



> *But they are not even similar. The ONLY thing that is similar is when he ears the positive tone telling him he did right*. However that tone is coming from a device that can have negative consequences thus is not nearly as effective. Another thing you mentioned in your previous post is that you seemed to be proud at how fast you could eliminate the treats. Clicker training is not a race to eliminate treats. Treats are eliminated when the time to do so arrives.


In bold. You say that they are not even similar...but then say that they only way that they are *SIMILAR* is when he hears the positive tone telling him he did it right. So you say yourself that they are similar...not exactly but similar. And the calm "no" or tone? How is that different? Using verbal cues is no different than using to tones on the collar...right? Your voice is a tool that you use to train...so is the collar. So you could also say that using verbal commands is a crutch 

I know that its not a race that treats be eliminated...I just thought that it was a reflection that treats were not needed in such a short time which it was the right time. And yes...I am proud of it.


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## DaneMama

> One definition of torture is _"extreme anguish of body or mind; agony"_. I think shocking a dog's neck fits that definition particularly when its done multiple times. Anytime you punish a dog in any way because he did not perform a behavior you asked of him is wrong. It's totaly unnecessary. You can teach a dog any behavior without it.


Never said that I punish the dog for not doing a command right. Just give them the "no" tone and if they continued to be distracted a "poke" to get their attention. I tried the collar on myself (ie on my neck) and it did not hurt, if it had caused me pain...trust me I would never have used it on my dog. Like I said earlier it was like having someone poke me with a pen. I would hardly associate that to torture...



> I have had shock therapy on sore muscles in my neck several times and by no stretch of the imagination can it be called a positive experience. By no stretch of the imagination can a shock from a dog collar be a positive experience so why use it? You cannot use positive training and coersive training at the same time. The two cannot habitate the same space. All the advantages of positive training is wiped out by one coersive act. Trust is the foundation of positive training. The dog HAS to know that nothing negative will happen to him if he gets it wrong. If he suspects you will harm him with a negative act, he cannot learn nearly as well and as fast as a dog who KNOWS no harm will come to him no matter what.


Firstly, you cannot compare the two. I have had shock therapy done as well and it was not comfortable. That is why I tried the collar first and they are very different. I guess the only thing that they have in common is that they both use an electrical charge. 

Nothing coersive or painful should ever happen to a dog if the collar is used correctly. So I think that you are way overthinking the "shock" part of the collar. That is a very minimal part of it. You should really need to think about that hard, because I really do not like to repeat myself.



> You are absolutely correct. I should not have said that although I believe it from the bottom of my heart. I have seen theories that dogs don't love humans or each other. Love is not an emotion they are capable of. They act in whichever way will make life more pleasant for them. If demonstrating behaviors that we interpet as "love" causes their life to be more pleasant then thats what they do. That is why animals that are treated less than ideal will behave like that are perfectly happy and love their masters unconditionally. I'm not saying I completely buy into that theory but it does warrant some merit.


I am sorry that you feel that way. My dogs may not have the knowledge of what love is...but I know in my heart that they do love me. The fact that they constantly follow me around the house, listen to me, talk to me, snuggle in bed with me, go to work with me, go nuts when I come home...kinda gives me the impression that they prefer to have me around. Which I interpret them saying that they love me.



> They are not positive experiences. They deminish any postiive reinforcement you give during training. THey are entirely unnecessary and serve no purpose except the releive frustration of the trainer. If you have to give a tug on a leash to get attention, you could benefit from more training yourself. You have probably seen me say that I don't use a leash in the majority of my training. Holding attention and motivation are the keys to good training. I teach sit, down, stay, come, go to your place, give it, take it, leave it, and more I can't think of right now all without the use of a leash. A leach tug is not available to me.


I would like to know how you get the attention of a dog that has no interest in you whatsoever, no matter how many tasty treats or favorite toys you have...when they would rather like to run and run and run and never come back? Seems like a leash or something would come in handy...



> Again with being hurtful and straying away from the debate. Kudos to you for not needing one...you have Danes right? One of the easiest dogs to train, I know because we have a few. A wolf hybrid? Not so easy.


I'm sorry that you felt like this was an attack, which was not my purpose here. Just trying to put it in perspective and I guess not so well.



> Ok, you are right again. I should not have said you have no training ability. I don't know you and I don't know how much you have. I am correct in saying that a shock collar is a crutch. It is a completely unnecessary device that has negative connotations to the dog. Millions upon millions of dogs have been trained without one. If millions of others can do it, you should be able to also.


I can say that I don't have the experience that you do, but I think that we share some of the same knowledge...obviously we do not agree on things. And maybe its just that we have to agree to disagree on this topic, since neither of us seems like we are going to budge.



> About sharing my techniques ... it would take a book to do that and I don't have the time to write one


Never asked for a book. I'm merely suggesting that instead of being hurtful and vague in your responses to put some backup material to them so that people have something to go off of instead of just an insult.

And thank you for the helpful hints on clicker training, but I will say that its nothing that I don't know already 



> Ahhh, but I have trained many wild animals using 100% positive methods.


I am absolutely happy to hear that. Keep up the good work!!!


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## RawFedDogs

danemama08 said:


> So if the collar NEVER causes any sort of pain...how is the dog supposed to magically know that its a torture device that causes pain?


It is a negative response to a behavior. Often times it's a behavior the dog it trying to get correct and is failing at it. You see, with a dog who has only been positive trained and never had negative effects from making a mistake, when he fails to get a click for performing a behavior, he will stop, think a minute, and try something else. He will often continue trying other things until he gets it right. If a dog as been trained using aversives and shock is and aversive regardless of how much pain is associated with it, when he doesn't perform correctly and gets the aversive, he will stop. He will freeze until he gets some help. I wish you could experience the thrill of working with a dog who trusts you completely and knows you will never do anything negative to him when he screws up. It is a joy and so much different than "old time" training.



> The negative impact that comes from it, when used correctly is only a cue to them him that he didn't get the command right, not torture and pain. How is that negative impact any different than a "no" word or sound?


I repeat, because sometimes he gets a shock from that device. You told me in one post that if he doesn't get it correct, you give him the negative beep. If he still doesn't do it correctly a slight shock and next a stronger shock if she still doesn't get it correct. There is no room for negativity in true clicker training. It wipes out so much of what you gained by using positives.



> Like I said before, I use the collar *LIKE* a clicker...not exactly but similarly. I have taken the clicker training classes before...*EVERY* single one of them used a "no" word or sound if the command was not done correctly. How is the "no" tone any different?


You never took a class from me. :smile: I have no problem with a calm "no" or "wrong" spoken in a soft voice. I don't equate that to a noise coming from a collar. "No" or "wrong" is something coming directly from you. The sound comes out of nowhere and I doubt he even associates it with you.



> There is absolutely nothing harsh about the negative or "no" tone on the collar. Just a different sounding tone that they associate not getting a treat or praise.


From what you said before there definately is. It means, "you got that wrong and if you get it wrong again, something worse will happen to you and it will continue getting worse until you get it right."



> I have also condition trained dogs to learn things on their own, with no need for commands at all. But when it comes to training a wolf dog that has the innate behavior to roam, not to...conditional training is not the most effective IMO.


I think you are wrong but since I have no experience with a wolf dog I can't say for sure. I do know I have trained wild animals who were born in the wild using a clicker and 100% positive methods. And yes, ALL clicker trained dogs are much better at learning things on their own. Aversive trained dogs are afraid to try new things fearing the consequences of doing something wrong.



> Thank you for giving me some back ground about your history in training. This helps but still gives me little to go on. I have no doubt that you have a *LOT* of knowledge on training, but that does not mean to me that you are a good trainer. Having knowledge about training does not automatically make you a good trainer. Knowledgable...yes...good? Not necessarily.


You are again 100% right BUT in this context it's the knowledge that counts not the training ability cause I am not training or teaching you to train your dog. We are merely having a discussion.



> I am also happy to know that you have been able to train many animals. That is awesome. Its really hard to believe that you have never said NO to an animal!!! But that is great that you have been able to do so much, without ever having to say NO


Didn't say I have never said "no". Years ago I used a lot of force, coersion, aversives, and any other thing it took to get the dog to do what I wanted. After I learned better, I stopped saying "no" and have not felt handicapped in the least. The absence of the click tells him all he needs to know. He will soon learn to keep working until he gets the click.



> Right there. Thank you. The undesired behavior in this case is running away. Found her 10 miles away one night completely exhausted. We were lucky to have her back alive. So you see...it could not be ignored.


First off, you don't begin teaching the recall in the middle of the woods 50 miles from civilization. I usually begin in the living room of the house. Then I call from other rooms than the one the dog is in. Then I venture into an enclosead area, usually a fenced in back yard. Then I work in the front unenclosed front yard with a long line. Then I go to places where there are small distractions, still with the long line. Then I go into heavier and heavier distractions. Only when I am satisfied there do I begin cutting off a foot or so of the long line until it is only one foot long. When using the long line I rarely hold it. I let the dog drag it around. I can step on it if I need to to stop the dog if that is necessary. If the dog is so large that stepping on the line won't stop him, I tie one end around my waste.

Once you get the dog proficient in the recall without the long line, you need to start increasing the distance from you that you can recall him. You used a long line of 20 or 30 feet. Try 35 feet without the line. When he does good on that distance increase to 40 then 60 then 100 then however far you wish to go.

I have a theory about distance and cues. I believe that dogs have an imaginary circle around them that I call the circle of influence. Any cues given outside the circle of influence have no effect. You can expand the circle of influence by gradually increasing distance as described in the paragraph above.



> Yet again....how does a dog know that a device will cause pain if has never done so? Dogs are not born with the knowledge that a collar that makes noises will cause pain.


You said you shock him when the "wrong" beep doesn't work.



> In bold. You say that they are not even similar...but then say that they only way that they are *SIMILAR* is when he hears the positive tone telling him he did it right.


That part is similar but the negative tone coming from the same device negates the good.



> Using verbal cues is no different than using to tones on the collar...right?


No



> Your voice is a tool that you use to train...so is the collar. So you could also say that using verbal commands is a crutch


Your voice is part of you. You will always have it with you. The dog will hear it all the time whether in a training session or not. You will tell the dog things like, "time to eat" or "wanna go for a ride" or "wanna play ball". The negative tone from the collar never has a positive attribute to it. It is always negative and even sometimes says there is more negativity to continue.


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## RawFedDogs

danemama08 said:


> Nothing coersive or painful should ever happen to a dog if the collar is used correctly.


A slight tug on the leash is coersive. The shock is not something the dog works to get. He works to avoid it. That makes it coersive.



> I am sorry that you feel that way. My dogs may not have the knowledge of what love is...but I know in my heart that they do love me. The fact that they constantly follow me around the house, listen to me, talk to me, snuggle in bed with me, go to work with me, go nuts when I come home...kinda gives me the impression that they prefer to have me around. Which I interpret them saying that they love me.


I didn't say I subscribe to the theory. It's just a theory I read in one of the many books I have read about dog behavior and training. It does make a lot of sense so I don't dismiss it either.

While we are close on this subject let me point out something. I suspect you have never lived with a dog to whom you have never done anything negative. You have never yelled at him, never jerked a leash, never caused him any discomfort. A dog who is sure you always have his best interest at heart at all times. I live with a dog like that now and it is an amazing experience. My Thor who is 4 1/2 years old is a dog like that. Unfortunately I have used pinch collars and choke chains on Abby early in her stay with us. I haven't in 5 or 6 years so hopefully she has forgotten. I think she probably has because she is as close to me as Thor. They both will do anything I say whether they have been taught that behavior or not. It's just up to me to communicate to them what it is that I want.



> I would like to know how you get the attention of a dog that has no interest in you whatsoever, no matter how many tasty treats or favorite toys you have...when they would rather like to run and run and run and never come back? Seems like a leash or something would come in handy...


I think I explained that in my previous post. And yes it works. If I let a wild born hawk or falcon fly free, go off hunting and return to me when I call him, a wolfdog would be a cinch. 

BTW: When clicker training a dog, the very first thing I teach is for the dog to look at me when he hears his name. Thats how you get attention. You work on that just as hard as you work on any other behavior. It is one of the most important behaviors you can teach. 



> I'm sorry that you felt like this was an attack, which was not my purpose here. Just trying to put it in perspective and I guess not so well.


Somehow I think your post got scrambled here. I didn't ever think you attacked me.



> I can say that I don't have the experience that you do, but I think that we share some of the same knowledge...obviously we do not agree on things. And maybe its just that we have to agree to disagree on this topic, since neither of us seems like we are going to budge.


I have no doubt that we agree on many more things than we disagree on. I never agree to disagree, if you hang around long enough I will change your mine. :smile:



> Never asked for a book. I'm merely suggesting that instead of being hurtful and vague in your responses to put some backup material to them so that people have something to go off of instead of just an insult.


What you asked for would take a book. Hopefully my last few posts have been a little more helpful.



> And thank you for the helpful hints on clicker training, but I will say that its nothing that I don't know already


If you knew everything I said, you wouldn't be using the collar. :smile:


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## claybuster

RawFedDogs said:


> First off, you don't begin teaching the recall in the middle of the woods 50 miles from civilization. I usually begin in the living room of the house. Then I call from other rooms than the one the dog is in. Then I venture into an enclosead area, usually a fenced in back yard. Then I work in the front unenclosed front yard with a long line. Then I go to places where there are small distractions, still with the long line. Then I go into heavier and heavier distractions. Only when I am satisfied there do I begin cutting off a foot or so of the long line until it is only one foot long. When using the long line I rarely hold it. I let the dog drag it around. I can step on it if I need to to stop the dog if that is necessary. If the dog is so large that stepping on the line won't stop him, I tie one end around my waste.
> 
> Once you get the dog proficient in the recall without the long line, you need to start increasing the distance from you that you can recall him. You used a long line of 20 or 30 feet. Try 35 feet without the line. When he does good on that distance increase to 40 then 60 then 100 then however far you wish to go.


What you don't understand about e-collars is they can be used for very effective communication with extremely mild stims, stims that would even hurt a fly yet remain very effective.

The training method described above is old methodology. It is one step above choker-collar training. The same techniques apply, minus the choker chain. A regular collar/tab is used instead. Leads get both shorter and thinner during the progression, and you get it down to fishing line that the dog doesn't feel in the slightest. But so long as the tab is connected to the collar, the dog thinks he is still connected to you. You have the patience to still with it, you can have your dog mirror every step you make, no matter where you go, so long as he is wearing the collar and tab. Guess what people, it is not 100% positive. This type of training involves tugs and sometimes sharp pulls on the neck to get the dog to respond, especially early in the training, and whenever there is tugging on the neck you can risk injury. This training method was worse when combined with the choker collars, but the same methodology when used with the regular collar also involves the 'pull' against the neck. You should not read the above quote IMO and walk away with the impression it always pain free when not been given more info. RFD spoke specifically in regards to working with recall and I described having your dog mirror you wherever you go. Different goal, but the techniques used are similar.
If the dog doesn’t recall, there has to be a tug on the line against the neck…not 100% positive.


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## RawFedDogs

claybuster said:


> What you don't understand about e-collars is they can be used for very effective communication with extremely mild stims, stims that would even hurt a fly yet remain very effective.


It's still not a positive experience to the dog. I don't care how light it is. I have seen many dogs with burns on their skin. You can accomplish just as much without any negative thing happening to the dog so why do you people get such enjoyment out of treating them negatively? Its a crutch. Period. Nothing else. Just like a pinch collar or choke chain. A crutch.



> The training method described above is old methodology. It is one step above choker-collar training. The same techniques apply, minus the choker chain. A regular collar/tab is used instead. Leads get both shorter and thinner during the progression, and you get it down to fishing line that the dog doesn't feel in the slightest. But so long as the tab is connected to the collar, the dog thinks he is still connected to you.


I re-read my post and I can see where you get that idea. What you obviously missed, probably because I didn't mention it, is that when first beginning inside and working in an enclosed area, no leash at all is used. notihng, nada. When we get to where we need the long line, the only purpose of the line is to confirm that the dog will not see a distraction and run off chasing it. The line is never held in the hand. It is always on the ground or tied around your waste. It has no use in the training. The dog is never jerked or pulled toward you. The line is never used to encourage the dog to do anything.



> You have the patience to still with it, you can have your dog mirror every step you make, no matter where you go, so long as he is wearing the collar and tab.


I'm sure I could teach a dog to do that but I have never had the desire to have a dog mirror my every step. I just want him to say close to me when I need him to.



> Guess what people, it is not 100% positive.


If you could teach the same thing just as well using only positive methods, why on earth would you not want to unless you like stressing your dog?



> This type of training involves tugs and sometimes sharp pulls on the neck to get the dog to respond, especially early in the training, and whenever there is tugging on the neck you can risk injury. This training method was worse when combined with the choker collars, but the same methodology when used with the regular collar also involves the 'pull' against the neck.


As you know by now that is not what I do and anyone else who does it should be ashamed of themselves.



> You should not read the above quote IMO and walk away with the impression it always pain free when not been given more info. RFD spoke specifically in regards to working with recall and I described having your dog mirror you wherever you go. Different goal, but the techniques used are similar.


Why do you want the dog to mirror your every step? WHy is just staying close to you not enough?



> If the dog doesn’t recall, there has to be a tug on the line against the neck…not 100% positive.


When you teach a dog using positive methods you don't ask him for a recall unless you are 95% sure he will perform it unless you are in an inclosed area. In the early training in an enclosed area there is no need to jerk, pull or tug. Remember the long line isn't to enforce the "command". If the dog fails to perform, you make the criteria easier until he is capable of performing.

There is absolutely no need to use negative influences on a dog to perform anything you want him to. People who do either don't know any better or don't mind mistreating their dog. 

Very few professional animal trainers use anything but 100% positive methods no matter what kind of animal they are training. THey have all be switching to positive in the last 15 or 20 years. I have seen the wildest, meanest, strongest animals on earth trained using only positive methods. It can be done and its not real difficult to learn how. If you can train wild animals using positive methods, our tame little dogs are easy.


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## DaneMama

> I have no doubt that we agree on many more things than we disagree on. I never agree to disagree, if you hang around long enough I will change your mine. :smile:


I want to thank you for your long and descriptive responses. It really does make me have a bit more faith in your knowledge and it shows that you have the capacity to show your passion. I have yet to see you respond in the way that you have in this thread!

I want to also say that this was 100% hypothetical on my part. I have never used a collar in the fashion in which I described, just wanted to put the use of shock collars out there in a different light. 

I know that they are used wrongly and harm dogs way more often than not (I see the ramifications at work all the time) and that their use does not agree with my personal beliefs, altho they can be effective. I will say that we did try a "bark" collar once and only once and since then have stayed far, far away from them completely. Just made her go crazy and bark even more 

I can say that Shiloh the wolf dog learned to stick around by example, not by any training at all. Being around other dogs that stay close and don't run off I guess made her see that she can run and be free and have fun, but also come back and have a nice meal at home. Sleep in bed with her family 

And I am sorry...but I don't think that you can ever change someone that is of like mind :wink: 

Sorry...I have a need to stir the pot sometimes LOL

Now we are fostering a deaf and partially blind Dane...she learns incredibly fast!


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## RawFedDogs

danemama08 said:


> I want to thank you for your long and descriptive responses. It really does make me have a bit more faith in your knowledge and it shows that you have the capacity to show your passion. I have yet to see you respond in the way that you have in this thread!


You take credit for that. You brought it out of me. :smile: I usually like to give short answers and hope someone asks, "How do you do that?" Then I know I have someone who is interested enough to really learn something.



> I want to also say that this was 100% hypothetical on my part. I have never used a collar in the fashion in which I described, just wanted to put the use of shock collars out there in a different light.


I didn't think that sounded like you. I was surprised to read something like that coming from you. :smile:



> I know that they are used wrongly and harm dogs way more often than not (I see the ramifications at work all the time) and that their use does not agree with my personal beliefs, altho they can be effective. I will say that we did try a "bark" collar once and only once and since then have stayed far, far away from them completely. Just made her go crazy and bark even more


I never said they don't work. I just know better ways to teach a dog something.



> I can say that Shiloh the wolf dog learned to stick around by example, not by any training at all. Being around other dogs that stay close and don't run off I guess made her see that she can run and be free and have fun, but also come back and have a nice meal at home. Sleep in bed with her family


It's almost like my Thor. He is 4 1/2 yo and he came here when he was 12wks. I bet I haven't spent 2 hours training him the whole time he has lived here. He just picks up on what I want done. I don't care about teaching my own dogs "tricks". My dogs do things like, "come closer", "get away from him" (when a worker is doing something around the house or yard), "go over there and lay down" "come here". "stay there" "wait here" I'm not sure he even knows "sit".



> And I am sorry...but I don't think that you can ever change someone that is of like mind :wink:


Hehe



> Sorry...I have a need to stir the pot sometimes LOL


Cool ... I do that from time to time when things get slow here. :smile:



> Now we are fostering a deaf and partially blind Dane...she learns incredibly fast!


Several years ago one of my Goldens went both deaf and blind. She knew many many behaviors but I had to come up with different ways to communicate with her. When someone would walk in the room, she would lift her head and sniff the air trying to figure out who was in the room now. She seemed to know a lot about what was going on. She could find her food at meal time and she could find her way outside to potty. At night she could find her way to our bedroom. Sorry, I'm ramblilng again. I'll shut up.


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## claybuster

RawFedDogs said:


> I can step on it if I need to to stop the dog if that is necessary. If the dog is so large that stepping on the line won't stop him, I tie one end around my waste.


hmmmm...interesting...what does that do? What's the difference is the pull against the neck comes from your hand or the foot? Stepping on it is going to stop the line thus stopping the dog...no? Wouldn't that be considered a negative.

Ok, yea, I'm nit-picking but I think I present a very valid argument. The A#1 reason people are opposed to choker collar work is because the risk of injury to the dogs neck. It is not unrealistic to think that even a reg non-choker type collar when a line is abruptly stopped (even by foot), the dog has to feel that and there can be a reaction similar to a snap or tug on the line.
Point is, it is very difficult to escape the negative, even when your intentions
are to avoid them.


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## RawFedDogs

claybuster said:


> hmmmm...interesting...what does that do? What's the difference is the pull against the neck comes from your hand or the foot? Stepping on it is going to stop the line thus stopping the dog...no? Wouldn't that be considered a negative.


Not really. It's used to keep the dog from running away when in training. It is used in a large open (unfenced) area until the dog is reliable. It is not a training aid and it's not used in the training. This line is used after the dog has worked without a leash in as large a fenced area as you can find. It's just part of the progression to get him to the point of being reliable off leash out in the world.



> Ok, yea, I'm nit-picking but I think I present a very valid argument. The A#1 reason people are opposed to choker collar work is because the risk of injury to the dogs neck.


Yes it's nit-picking and not a valid argument. If you want a dog to be reliable off leash in large open areas you must begin this way. I never worried about the risk of injury when I used to use a choke collar and that wasn't the reason I stopped using them. They are just unnecessary and cruel devices that some people mistakenly think gives them more control over their dog. In all my years of training, I never personally knew a dog that was injured by one. Of course my next door neighbor's coworker's wife's brother's next door neighbors' uncle had a dog that was injured by one. :smile: Thats the only way I have heard about such injuries.



> It is not unrealistic to think that even a reg non-choker type collar when a line is abruptly stopped (even by foot), the dog has to feel that and there can be a reaction similar to a snap or tug on the line.


When I use the long line I always use a normal leather or nylon collar. It's really not that big a deal. It is rare that the dog gets to the end of the line anyway. Remember he has already proved himself to be reliable off leash in the back yard and inside the house. It's not like its the first time he's been more than 6 feet from you.



> Point is, it is very difficult to escape the negative, even when your intentions are to avoid them.


It beats any alternatives I have found. Well, if you live in a good place, you can avoid long lines. I live in rural West GA. When I got Thor we spent a lot of time outside with me off leash. He was 12 weeks old and naturally didn't wander far from me. As he got older and more curious he had already learned the recall so I never used any device to teach reliability off leash. To this day, he is 4 1/2 yo now, he rarely has a leash on. We go for long walks every day.


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## claybuster

RawFedDogs said:


> Why do you want the dog to mirror your every step? WHy is just staying close to you not enough?


I don't, I never trained my dog like that but it is done and that was one of the techniques (collar/tab, lines, shorter, thinner, etc). People in large metropolitan areas who brings there dogs with them on walks, sidewalks, cafes, busy streets, traffic, and they want their dog directly next to their right leg at all times.


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## DaneMama

RawFedDogs said:


> You take credit for that. You brought it out of me. :smile: I usually like to give short answers and hope someone asks, "How do you do that?" Then I know I have someone who is interested enough to really learn something.


Gotta give some people something to go on tho...a reason to ask you "how do you do that?" people are not going to ask you questions when you give them a very short, vague, slightly rude answer 




> I didn't think that sounded like you. I was surprised to read something like that coming from you. :smile:


Wondered why you didn't call me out LOL




> I never said they don't work. I just know better ways to teach a dog something.


+1



> It's almost like my Thor. He is 4 1/2 yo and he came here when he was 12wks. I bet I haven't spent 2 hours training him the whole time he has lived here. He just picks up on what I want done. I don't care about teaching my own dogs "tricks". My dogs do things like, "come closer", "get away from him" (when a worker is doing something around the house or yard), "go over there and lay down" "come here". "stay there" "wait here" I'm not sure he even knows "sit".


Same here with all of ours. But I usually stick to one word commands if I can...like "wait" "stop" "settle" "come" "stay" "squirrel" "go" "off" "quiet" "who's here?" "down" "up" "gimme that paw" "ball" "find it" "over there" "park" "dinner dinner" "go say hi" and Emmy's personal favorite "laser?" 

She goes nuts for the laser LOL this is only what I can think of off the top of my head. They also know the names of my mom's dogs too. I have had several people say that they have never seen a dog "listen" like mine do. They just sit there and stare waiting for me to say something...not necessarily a command either.



> Several years ago one of my Goldens went both deaf and blind. She knew many many behaviors but I had to come up with different ways to communicate with her. When someone would walk in the room, she would lift her head and sniff the air trying to figure out who was in the room now. She seemed to know a lot about what was going on. She could find her food at meal time and she could find her way outside to potty. At night she could find her way to our bedroom. Sorry, I'm ramblilng again. I'll shut up.


Unfortunately this dog came into rescue not knowing a single command. And as I am sure that you know that white Danes are usually deaf and/or blind, so she was born this way. She is 5 now and has been in rescue for a month or so. She knows several commands...and just learned "sit" in the course of 15 mins with nothing but kibble LOL


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## olla86

I don't believe in the "benefits" of shock collar and I don't use it! I am pitty of animal!:redface:


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## jiml

So two holes burned in the fur of a dog's neck is not so bad? Tell that to the little guy who just had his cleaned out once again by myself. And for an update, they're also infected. But I guess that's not so bad either. >>>

I know that this is old. I have used e collars in the past and educated on there use. I will not try to convince anyone they are necessary -they are not, and have no prob with anyone using pos methods. However shock collars DO NOT burn. they physiclly can not the amps are to low. However they can cause pain, are easily misused. what you saw were sores related to the probes irritating the area (Pressure Necrosis). They should not be kept on 24/7 and should be removed if after the dog gets wet for his skin to dry.

So really just throwing this out more for info for peole reading this thread that ARE using these devices. I dont know your cercumstances or your "reasons" for using these devices. but if you are please use them correctly.


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## papillonsandpitbulls

I'm getting myself in trouble here, but you asked for my opinion.. :wink:

I believe in e-collars - along with positive reinforcement - as training tools. But that is horrible that the owner of that dog mis-used the tool and it left burn marks! That's not helping.. at all.

To use the e-collar, you put it on the lowest setting and correct your dog when he misbehaves.. it doesn't even hurt, it's just uncomfortable for a second!

I'm probably won't respond to any bashing by the way, because frankly IDGAF. :biggrin:


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## xxshaelxx

I once had an issue with my neighbor's dog barking incessantly for half an hour at a time, no movements, no noises, no nothing to even bark at. I went almost crazy listening to the darn thing barking, and barking, and barking…and…well…BARKING! So I looked it up online, and they actually make a device that emits a sound that teaches the dog not to bark. I say that is a HECK of a lot better investment than a shock/bark/electric collar.

Personally, I think an even better method would be crate training. Barking is obviously caused by boredom, too much energy, or separation anxiety if it's done when the owners are gone. That's what crates are made for. They're, in essence, a cave-type home for your dog. My dogs LOVE their crates. They get shut in them any time we leave, while we sleep, or when they need to calm down or leave the cats alone. They hardly ever make a peep, except when they need to go potty, or if we're just getting home and they can hear us outside, and even then, they don't always make a peep, and it's usually because they're excited to see me. I got home today, and they were all yapping in their crates, and as soon as I let Amaya out, she barreled me over with kisses and hugs, tail wagging generously, and barking for attention. Same with Ryou, same with Kuso. Why is that? Because they've learned that the crate is the place to settle down, the place to sleep, and when we get home, they'll get to run outside and play with each other (after seeing mama for a few minutes, that is).

Might I also mention that my Sibes have never made a peep at anything outside of the yard other than my own cat trying to jump the fence? Might I add that the entire NEIGHBORHOOD was going off in yips, howls, whines, and barks once, and I poked my head out the back door to yell at them to shut their fat traps, and guess what? They were wandering around the yard, sniffing the ground as though not a thing was happening around them. Even Kuso, my little noisemaker, my little troublemaker, my issue causer, has never barked at anything outside of the yard. Why do I think that is? I think my dogs are content in their own backyard without worrying about what's all out there unless they actually get out there, because they have things to do, buddies to play with, and lots to explore, despite the fact that my yard is only .1 acres.

If they ever get into tiffs, which they do (generally orchestrated by Amaya), I need only stick my head out the window and yell "You mangy mutts better shut your traps before I come out there and shut them myself!" Guess what? They all shut up!

I have NO recall with my dog Amaya, whatsoever. Why is that? I made the mistake of striking her once. Ever since then, she has never trusted me when I ask her to come. I hate to admit this, but it's true. I got angry, she paid the price, and I feel guilty for this every day of my life. I build my trust now by letting her come herself, and never, ever, ever raising a hand to her, but holding them out to show I'm not aiming to hurt her. She'll come, of course, and if she wanders off, she'll wander. She's a Siberian Husky, that's in their nature. When I come looking for her, however, she always, always, ALWAYS comes running back to my side, like, "Mommy, where'd you go?" When I go on off-leash walks, I don't want my dogs staying by my side. The point of their off-leash walk is to get out and RUN! To run like I can't with them. They're not always going to stay in site when the hills are rolling all around us. I've noticed that they go where I go, whether they're ten feet away, or two-hundred yards, and the only time they don't is when they're out of site and go "Oh, she's gone…" then simply wander off themselves. As with Amaya, as soon as I come up over that hill to look for them, they turn their heads and go "There's mama!" and follow me right on back. Ryou does this peculiar thing (and I think Kuso as well, but he's only done it once) where he'll stop and sit on the side of the road if he can't see me, then he'll wait for me to come find him. In instances where they chase rabbits, or birds, the chase lasts no more than twenty yards before they completely lose due to the hundreds of sagebrush in the area that the rabbits have fully mastered, and they have not.

In my own, personal opinion, I do not like the idea of shock collars. I wouldn't use them on my dogs, because I, myself, am terrified of being shocked by something like that (I run when my dad pulls out his fly zapper!). I don't CARE what people say about there being settings on a collar that don't even hurt your dog, because I believe that your dog HAS to know that it's there to inflict pain on them if they don't listen, otherwise they're not going to respond to a small tingling sensation. In my opinion, that'd just cause them to sit down and scratch their neck a couple of times. And what other way is there to teach the dog what the shock collar is there for, other than turning it up to a level where it does hurt the dog? That is EXACTLY what I believe shock collars are there for, to instill fear into your dog of what could happen IF they don't listen to that small tingling sensation at their neck. I know I wouldn't listen to a small tickling of my skin if someone was calling me back and I didn't want to come.

I've taken my dogs to the dog park, even with no recall whatsoever. The only reason I don't really take them anymore is because of all the problems other dogs have done to them. Kuso will bark at other dogs, and every once in a while growl, and I will tell him no and he'll stop (or risk being put on the leash until he minds his manners), but never once has he ever lashed out at them. Amaya and Ryou are the most friendly dogs on the face of the planet and want nothing more than to play, play, play. So, they have no recall, no sense of mama's orders, but I have no fear with them being there. I believe they're there to have a good time, to play and rumble and rough house, not to be obedient to my ever command. Frankly, I don't care that they don't listen, as long as I can leash them up when we're ready to go, and I've never had a problem doing that.

Now, I'm not the best dog owner in the world, not by far, but these are all just my opinions on the subject based on what I've learned from teaching my dogs when little they do know. haha.


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## papillonsandpitbulls

xxshaelxx - THANK you for not bashing me, lol. I agree with you about the crates, they are a godsend! But I disagree with prong collars having to hurt to work.. for most dogs, an uncomfortable feeling for a second is enough to let them know that what they are doing is unacceptable. Plus, e-collars aren't to make your dog come back - they aren't going to magically make your dog come running back - they are to correct undesired behavior.


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## dobesgalore

claybuster said:


> I don't think e-collars are as bad as people make them out to be and they are not as painful as most automatically assume. It's more like a simple tap on the shoulder.
> 
> I know this may seem confusing most all of you, especially Corgi Paws and RFD but if you showed my dog an E-collar, she would rush you, jump up on you, may knock you over with excitement, tail wagging, and be the first to get to out the door. You folks talk about things you never tried and have little to no understanding about, and that is the ignorance.
> 
> off to work,
> see ya.


O.K., so its no more than a tap on the shoulder. Have YOU had that little tap on the shoulder put around your neck? And used? I would like to see you do that and see your reaction. THEN keep rattling off all the crap you keep saying. I think your tune would change.


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## RawFedDogs

papillonsandpitbulls said:


> But I disagree with prong collars having to hurt to work.. for most dogs, an uncomfortable feeling for a second is enough to let them know that what they are doing is unacceptable.


I guess it depands on how "uncomfortable" you are talking about. There are MUCH better ways to let a dog know that they are performing an unacceptable behavior. The best methods use positive reinforcement, not "uncomfortable" feelings.



> Plus, e-collars aren't to make your dog come back - they aren't going to magically make your dog come running back - they are to correct undesired behavior.


In other words, they re used to punish. Again, instead of concentrating on "correcting", more attention should be given to "teaching". If you teach your dog the correct behavior, he will perform it.

The big mistake many amateur trainers and a lot of professional trainers make is to "correct" indesired behavior without teaching what the dog's behavior should be in a particular situation. This often leaves a dog confused and does nothing to alleviate the problem. Neither a shock collar nor pinch collar teach anything ... they merely "correct". Therefore they are not very valuable training tools to a knowledgable trainer.


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## papillonsandpitbulls

*sigh* I am not going to argue with you because for one, I am not going to change your opinion - not that I'm trying to, but you aren't going to accept my way, and I'm not going to accept your way.. and for two, I am not good at explaining myself. At all. So can we PLEASE just agree to disagree? You have your training, I have mine? I am constantly bashed on forums, so I leave them, but I mostly like this one so I don't want to leave.. so if we can just do what works for us, and not argue, it would be nice..


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## RawFedDogs

papillonsandpitbulls said:


> I am constantly bashed on forums, so I leave them, but I mostly like this one so I don't want to leave.. so if we can just do what works for us, and not argue, it would be nice..


When you are constantly bashed on several forums, it should tell you something and you should be smart enough to listen. I did not bash you, I simply stated some very important concepts in dog training. I am trying to teach you more in depth training concepts than you presently have. Stop hiding your head and cry "BASHING" when someone tries to teach you something. 

You are still new at dog training. Learn from more experienced people whenever you can. You can become an excellent dog trainer but not if you are not willing to learn the latest techniques. When I was training, I constantly attended training seminars put on by some top dog trainers. Even with 15 years experience, I was always exploring the latest techniques. Dog training is advancing all the time.

When I first began training, I used pinch collars and choke chains. In my last few years, I didn't even use collars of any kind except to teach loose leash walking.


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## papillonsandpitbulls

Lol. Fail. I'm not "hiding my head and screaming bashing", I simply said that I am constantly bashed by clicker people because of my "mean training". Y'all aren't teaching me anything, really, because honestly I think clickers and all positive recall and head halters are worthless. JMO.

How do you know I'm new at training? I am - not brand new, but I'm not pro - but you can't automatically assume things. I know a great dog trainer and he uses these methods.. he's a rep. breeder and his dogs are in schutzhund. I have watched him train before and he's excellent. I trust him for all my training needs. He also thinks clickers are useless.

I don't care about the "latest techniques" for sensitive dogs.. I care about the old-style training that works for my dog. 

I don't know why you are acting like this toward me - the last message you sent seemed very hostile - but honestly, I didn't join this forum to fight. I joined to share my opinion, help others, and ask questions about dogs.


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## papillonsandpitbulls

And by bashing.. I am talking about people saying "oh, you're so mean and your dog must hate you".


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## RawFedDogs

papillonsandpitbulls said:


> Lol. Fail. I'm not "hiding my head and screaming bashing", I simply said that I am constantly bashed by clicker people because of my "mean training". Y'all aren't teaching me anything, really, because honestly I think clickers and all positive recall and head halters are worthless. JMO.


I think the bashing is justified. It's obvious you think you know it all at this point in your life and you don't have any desire to improve your training techniques. You had rather inflict pain and discomfort on your dog rather than take the time to learn how to teach him faster and sharper without using pain.



> How do you know I'm new at training?


You are too young to have been training very long. Just reading your posts, I can tell you don't have a lot of experience nor have you had much training on how to train.



> I am - not brand new, but I'm not pro - but you can't automatically assume things.


I don't have to assume. I can tell by your posts.



> I know a great dog trainer and he uses these methods.. he's a rep. breeder and his dogs are in schutzhund. I have watched him train before and he's excellent. I trust him for all my training needs. He also thinks clickers are useless.


He's not half the trainer you think he is. His methods were outdated 15 years ago. Neither he nor you have gone to the trouble to keep up with advances in the craft.



> I don't care about the "latest techniques" for sensitive dogs.. I care about the old-style training that works for my dog.


Hehe, you have so much to learn. I suggest you not be so closed minded. You will be shocked at what there is out there to learn. You are listening to one out of date trainer and think is the top of the dog training world. He's definately not. There are 10,000 better trainers in the country.



> I don't know why you are acting like this toward me - the last message you sent seemed very hostile - but honestly, I didn't join this forum to fight.


I'm sorry if I sounded hostle. I think I was very reserved but maybe not. Tact is not my strong point. :smile: I'm just telling you in no uncertain terms that you have a LOT to learn about dog training. I suggest you open your mind and soak up some knowledge.

Remember I have trained for a long time. I have tried it all. I trained like you do at one time until I learned a better way. You see, I have trained hundreds of dogs using all methods. I know which ones are fastest and easiest to use. I know which ones get the best results consistantly.



> I joined to share my opinion, help others, and ask questions about dogs.


Cool, you are welcome to do both. You aren't going to be much help if you insist on giving information that has been outdated for 15 years.

And to answer your comment in your last post. I don't know if your dog hates you or not but I know he is afraid of you.


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## papillonsandpitbulls

Sigh.

You know nothing about me. You can't really tell much by reading posts on a website.. before you judge me, you need to meet me. Maybe you are older. Maybe you've been training longer. That doesn't mean you are right about everything. I'm not going to fight with you about this, arguing about something this pointless kinda immature IMO. I'm NOT switching training methods. I don't care what you say, really I don't. Stop judging me by my posts - you have NO idea about my life. And for my dog being afraid of me? He's not. If you think he is - where is your proof?


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## papillonsandpitbulls

And I wasn't giving "information on outdated devices" I was giving my opinion on those "outdated devices" which I am allowed to do, like it or not.

How do you know I haven't tried all that clicker training crap? It didn't work. Clickers = fail.


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## CorgiPaws

*ahem* a forum is a place to share, EXCHANGE, prove, disprove, CHALLENGE, discuss, support, and DEBATE ideas.
If you wish to ONLY share ideas, not discuss them, or provide any support to your ideas, nor are willing to listen to anyone elses ideas, you have therefore made your posts entirely pointless to the forum. 

Posting "this is how I do things, and I will not discuss it nor hear anyone else's ideas and reasons" adds a whole lot of nothing to the board.


ps. I knew you were far too young to have much real experience by your use of the phrase "IDGAF" in another thread, a sure sign. :wink:
And the fact that earlier this year you weren't sure what positive reinforcement was because you "hadn't read up on it."


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## papillonsandpitbulls

*sigh* So I must, 10 years old right? Because I used to not know what pos. reinforcement was and I used IDGAF? Haha okay. :smile:

Well I know better forums - obviously my opinion isn't welcomed here because it's "mean".


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## RawFedDogs

papillonsandpitbulls said:


> Sigh.
> 
> You know nothing about me. You can't really tell much by reading posts on a website.. before you judge me, you need to meet me.




Of course you can. I think you can tell more about a person from posts than you can when you meet them in person.



> Maybe you are older. Maybe you've been training longer. That doesn't mean you are right about everything.


But I'm right about this. Your posts are very transparant.



> I'm not going to fight with you about this, arguing about something this pointless kinda immature IMO.


Then don't. :smile:



> I'm NOT switching training methods. I don't care what you say, really I don't.


No matter how much proof you see you are not going to change because to do so you would have to admit you are wrong and that is beyond you. :smile:



> Stop judging me by my posts - you have NO idea about my life.


You're right but your posts give a lot of information about your maturity, knowledge of training, and dogs in general.



> And for my dog being afraid of me? He's not. If you think he is - where is your proof?


Put yourself in your dogs position. As a dog, you live with someone who will shock you, jerk your neck, or yell at you periodically for no reason you can determine. You never know when it's going to come or what causes it. They might be loving on you one minute and jerking the leash the next. Wouldn't you be afraid of that person?


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## RawFedDogs

papillonsandpitbulls said:


> And I wasn't giving "information on outdated devices" I was giving my opinion on those "outdated devices" which I am allowed to do, like it or not.


Oh, you are not only allowed, you are encouraged to give your opinion. Thats what we all do but you have to expect to be questioned on your opinion and read alternate opinions as well. You can't just give an opinion and move on and forget it. It doesn't work that way when you make a controversial post.



> How do you know I haven't tried all that clicker training crap? It didn't work. Clickers = fail.


Because clickers don't fail. They have sound psychological principles behind them. They have been proven to work over and over not only by thousands of dog trainers but thousands of trainers of other animals. I have clicker trained not only dogs, but cats, rats, mice, birds of prey, and chickens. I have assisted or watched other animals get clicker trained such as elephants, gorillas, rhino's, orangutans, otters, bears, tigers, lions and various exotic birds. I have even seen a gold fish get trained w/ clicker training. All animals will learn faster and retain what they learn better when taught with a clicker. 

It works and it works consistantly once you learn how. It takes practice to be a good clicker trainer. Thats why there are seminars to help you learn. I attended seminars even after I had been clicker training daily for 5 years. There is always more to learn.

Once you learn how the brain works and the psychology behind clickers you will understand all this and start to understand how to do it. So far I haven't seen anything like that from you.

Open up your mind. Do some reading. You will be amazed at how much further you can go in the dog training world if that is what you are interested in.

*ETA:* I have never seen clicker training fail when used by a knowledgable person.


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## papillonsandpitbulls

Well, maybe I will read up on it, but that doesn't mean I will start using it. Maybe I'll experiment with it.. but I won't discontinue my prong use. 
What about my dog's aggression issues? They can't be fixed with a clicker.

And my opinion, I expect it to be questioned - but not hate speech thrown at me, saying that my dog is afraid of me. He isn't afraid of his prong either, because I don't correct him much with it, only when he misbehaves. I know what my dog looks like when he's happy & excited - when get his food/treats out, when I get his leash out, and when I get his prong out. And no I haven't been training long. That doesn't mean I am a horrible trainer.. trust me, I know people far, far worse. Not saying I am a excellent pro trainer or anything.

After clickers go out of style and they are the outdated training method from 15 years ago.. are you going to switch to a different training method even though clickers worked fine for you, or are you going to have a viewpoint like mine?


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## RawFedDogs

papillonsandpitbulls said:


> Well, maybe I will read up on it, but that doesn't mean I will start using it. Maybe I'll experiment with it.. but I won't discontinue my prong use.


I think you will. Your clicker training won't reach it's fullest potential until your dog realizes that you won't hurt him no matter what. Once you reach that point, you life with him will be entirely different. :smile:



> What about my dog's aggression issues? They can't be fixed with a clicker.


You are many times more likely to fix aggression issues with positive reinforcement than to meet violence with violence. You will never cure that problem by using force. There is a good chance you can at least manage it by using a clicker and maybe even cure it. You won't know until you try it. I have seen aggressive dogs cured by using a clicker.



> And my opinion, I expect it to be questioned - but not hate speech thrown at me, saying that my dog is afraid of me. He isn't afraid of his prong either, because I don't correct him much with it, only when he misbehaves.


Ahhh, but thats the part you don't understand. He doesn't realize he is misbehaving until he gets his neck jerked. In his mind, the jerk is coming out of nowhere for no reason. The trick is to motivate the dog to behave in the manner you have taught him. So far you haven't taught him how to behave or what behaviors you want him to do.

Your dog will act in whatever manner makes his life more pleasant. If his life is more pleasant when he performs behaviors that gives you the impression that he loves you, those are the behaviors he will perform.



> That doesn't mean I am a horrible trainer.. trust me, I know people far, far worse.


I haven't said you are a horrible trainer. You just haven't learned how to properly train a dog yet. In time you will. I know people who are far worse also. At one time I was far worse. But I studied, I took classes, I researched, I learned better methods. If you approach it with an open mind, the same will happen to you.



> After clickers go out of style and they are the outdated training method from 15 years ago.. are you going to switch to a different training method even though clickers worked fine for you, or are you going to have a viewpoint like mine?[/FONT]


It won't take me 15 years. Just a few weeks. I am always open to better more effective methods. However, you won't catch me jerking on a leash, hitting, or in any way putting a dog in pain just to get the behavior I want. I won't use coersion in training anymore. I did years ago until I learned how to train without it. I won't ruin my relationships with my dogs and cats by using force to get them to do anything.


----------



## papillonsandpitbulls

I'm going to choose to agree to disagree with you about the fact that prongs hurt.. they don't.. I have put one around my own neck before and jerked it harder than I do with my dog. My dog just gets a light correction, that's all he needs. Plus, he has fur, it does not hurt him. If it does please tell me why he is excited to see it.


----------



## CorgiPaws

papillonsandpitbulls said:


> but I won't discontinue my prong use.



Reading up on it will do you NO good if you approach it with a close-minded arrogant attitude. 



papillonsandpitbulls said:


> What about my dog's aggression issues? They can't be fixed with a clicker.



Anyone else find it ironic that it's generally the "aggressive" dogs with prongs on?



papillonsandpitbulls said:


> And my opinion, I expect it to be questioned - but not hate speech thrown at me, saying that my dog is afraid of me.



No one has thrown any hate speech at you. Questioning your cruel methods of training is not "hate speech." If you ever want to be a successful trainer, one has to open their minds to better ways of thinking, and train WITHOUT violence. I know you love your dog very much... I don't question that. I do not, however, think you understand the basic principles of building a relationship based on TRUST and *only* trust.



papillonsandpitbulls said:


> And no I haven't been training long. That doesn't mean I am a horrible trainer..



That is all subject to opinion. To me, a training method based off of fear is a sure sign of horrible training. But that's just me, and MY opinion, which I am entirely entitled to. Am I saying YOU are a bad PERSON? no. I'm saying that your training methods moderately disgust me, and I'm sad for your dog. 



papillonsandpitbulls said:


> After clickers go out of style and they are the outdated training method from 15 years ago.. are you going to switch to a different training method even though clickers worked fine for you, or are you going to have a viewpoint like mine?


Should clickers ever go out of style, and new POSITIVE methods arise, we must be open to new ideas. Things like prongs, shocks, etc. were only EVER made popular because of their fast results due to fear conditioning, NOT because they're a healthy tool or good for your dog in any way.


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## papillonsandpitbulls

CorgiPaws said:


> Anyone else find it ironic that it's generally the "aggressive" dogs with prongs on?


My dog's aggression issues are actually serious, not an eyerolling issue.. and they arose way before I even knew about prongs.




CorgiPaws said:


> No one has thrown any hate speech at you. Questioning your cruel methods of training is not "hate speech." If you ever want to be a successful trainer, one has to open their minds to better ways of thinking, and train WITHOUT violence. I know you love your dog very much... I don't question that. I do not, however, think you understand the basic principles of building a relationship based on TRUST and *only* trust.


Aww, I'm so mean, my dog must just shiver with fear when he sees me. 




CorgiPaws said:


> That is all subject to opinion. To me, a training method based off of fear is a sure sign of horrible training. But that's just me, and MY opinion, which I am entirely entitled to. Am I saying YOU are a bad PERSON? no. I'm saying that your training methods moderately disgust me, and I'm sad for your dog.


I could care less what you think of my training.. it's my training, it works, and while you may be sad for my dog, he definitely isn't!! Why don't you just report me to PeTA..


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## CorgiPaws

papillonsandpitbulls said:


> My dog's aggression issues are actually serious, not an eyerolling issue.. and they arose way before I even knew about prongs.


I am sure they are. But perhaps those aggression issues could have been sorted out ages ago WITHOUT fear tactics. 
I know all about aggression issues. Champ could not be in a room with any men when I got him. He was INCREDIBLY aggressive towards men when I got him, after being severely abused for a year. He was food aggressive, toy aggressive, male aggressive, you name it.. he was aggressive towards it! Entirely resolved by gaining his TRUST and by TEACHING him that not all people are bad. It was a long road, and he's still very weary of men, but no more snarling, no more biting, no more attempted attacking. 
Prongs and other torture devices do nothing in the way of teaching. They only send a message of "do what I want, or it'll hurt"



papillonsandpitbulls said:


> Aww, I'm so mean, my dog must just shiver with fear when he sees me.
> 
> I could care less what you think of my training.. it's my training, it works, and while you may be sad for my dog, he definitely isn't!! Why don't you just report me to PeTA..


Rude sarcasm isn't going to get you very far on this board, or in life. Perhaps you'll learn that as you grow up a little, or perhaps not. Who knows. But the sarcastic and immature "I dont care" posts only show that you have no real defense for your methods other than "it works for my dog" which is oddly the same defense as someone who feeds Ol' Roy to their dogs, refusing to open their minds to better ways.


----------



## CurtisM

*wrong...*



CorgiPaws said:


> So two holes burned in the fur of a dog's neck is not so bad? Tell that to the little guy who just had his cleaned out once again by myself. And for an update, they're also infected. But I guess that's not so bad either.
> 
> 
> 
> I have given Champ a tap or two on the shoulder, never has it left burn marks. Ever.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You're absolutely right. It is BEYOND my understanding as to why someone would abuse their pets in the name of training. Forgive me, I can't grasp that concept.
> 
> 
> You're absolutely right, once again. I never have and never would use a torture device on any of my dogs. (though I've had a few ex boyfriends who qualify for the treatment. LOL) But do NOT be so IGNORANT as to tell me I have no understanding of the damn things when I see it time and time again. I am not making assumptions over something I have never seen.
> You were not there this morning as I cleaned the wounds of yet ANOTHER dog abused by such things. If it were a one time thing, I would not have vented over it but it's not a one time thing. If the dogs that come in don't have total burn marks on their skin, their fur is at least affected.
> Seeing it time and time again is not ignorance. DOn't make assumptions about something you know nothing about.






You guys are both wrong. E-collars do NOT contain enough electrical energy to cause a burn. The marks you saw are called pressure necrosis. In other words the pressure from the collar being fitted pushing those two prongs into the skin cut off the blood circulation causing the tissue underneath to be damaged/die. So it's not the e-collars fault, it's the owner who doesn't properly fit and rotate the collar's fault. If one read the instructions they would clearly read the print in bold that says do not leave on for over 8 continuous hours. Some manufacturers do indeed sell replacement "diffusers" which diffuse the pressure load on a pad vs 2 prongs thus making necrosis a non-issue. I use diffusers.

The other moderator, sorry I forgot his name/what he goes by. The gentleman with the beard. He said "anything you can teach a dog with negative reinforcement you can teach with positive reinforcement" he is ABSOLUTELY RIGHT!

I can train a dog to do ANYTHING with food and toy rewards. The problem is I can't MAKE him do anything. If your dog has no dangerous issues, and is always leashed in public...positive reinforcement may be the path for you. If you need a dog to respond to commands 100% 24/7 ie a Police Service Dog, a serious working dog, a protection dog and the like, corrections MUST be used. 

The key here is VALUE. If a dog values chasing a cat more than your liver biscotti treat? He will chase the cat. Common sense right? Well if that cat is across the street? You've got a flattened dog. Corrections add another value. You can never increase a liver biscotti treat's value. It will remain what it is. You can however increase the value of avoiding a correction. Chasing the cat may be worth missing a liver snack, but it should NOT be worth the correction the dog would receive thus stopping him from chasing the cat. The concept isn't difficult to grasp. If you never feel your command will ever mean the life of your dog, by God never use coercive methods. But with MY dogs there may be a time where "HIER!" or "NO" or "PLATZ" may save my dog's life. If you have roads and motorvehicles where you live it may also save yours one day.

I agree with the banned member. If you don't understand the concept of training overall it's easy to condemn it. This is bare bones basic theory. Negative reward, positive reward, negative punishment, positive punishment. The only I don't agree with using is negative punishment. Negative punishment means you cause discomfort to a dog, give him a command, then take away the discomfort when he complies. It's unfair. With positive punishment you add correction after the dog has been given a known command, and the warning "No" and still won't comply. The dog had two choices, comply, or ignore...it made the decision to ignore and be corrected itself. Now it's your job to increase the value of avoiding the correction so your dog doesn't ignore you again.

Again...basic science. Not rocket science.


----------



## CurtisM

RawFedDogs said:


> Oh, you are not only allowed, you are encouraged to give your opinion. Thats what we all do but you have to expect to be questioned on your opinion and read alternate opinions as well. You can't just give an opinion and move on and forget it. It doesn't work that way when you make a controversial post.
> 
> 
> 
> Because clickers don't fail. They have sound psychological principles behind them. They have been proven to work over and over not only by thousands of dog trainers but thousands of trainers of other animals. I have clicker trained not only dogs, but cats, rats, mice, birds of prey, and chickens. I have assisted or watched other animals get clicker trained such as elephants, gorillas, rhino's, orangutans, otters, bears, tigers, lions and various exotic birds. I have even seen a gold fish get trained w/ clicker training. All animals will learn faster and retain what they learn better when taught with a clicker.
> 
> It works and it works consistantly once you learn how. It takes practice to be a good clicker trainer. Thats why there are seminars to help you learn. I attended seminars even after I had been clicker training daily for 5 years. There is always more to learn.
> 
> Once you learn how the brain works and the psychology behind clickers you will understand all this and start to understand how to do it. So far I haven't seen anything like that from you.
> 
> Open up your mind. Do some reading. You will be amazed at how much further you can go in the dog training world if that is what you are interested in.
> 
> *ETA:* I have never seen clicker training fail when used by a knowledgable person.






This is the gentleman I mntioned before! Yes, clicker training is useful. I don't like juggling a clicker, a leash, treats, and a ball on a rope though so I use "Yes!" To mark behaviors. Once my dog knows the commands I wish to teach I make sure he understands he MUST obey them. You can not teach a dog he MUST do anything with treats you can only suggest he should and that he will be rewarded if he does. And if he does not, that you will not give him the reward. To most dogs this is simply not enough to ensure behavior on a 100% consistent basis.

You bash corrections training as out dated and used by mediocre trainers. The best trainers in the World use corrections. Dr. Helmut Raiser has shown up on the Schutzhund field with a regular dog and taken home Bundessieger champions more than once, he uses corrections. Last years Mondioring 3 champion Michael Ellis who also uses and advocates marker and clicker training uses corrections and e-collars as well, as do nearly every single other competitive dog trainer and person who use dogs for REAL work and not basic Petsmart "obedience" and parlor tricks.

It's easy to claim you're a great trainer but the people I mentioned were literally at the time they won the best in the WORLD at their chosen training discipline winning out over thousands, tens of thousands of dogs to ascend to taking home national and international championships. What have you done to make you a great trainer? What competition do you compare yourself to? Is your dog's obedience better than the neighbor's spoiled hounds? Is it CDX worthy? Is it Schutzhund Nationals perfect? You are a good trainer compared to whom and have well trained dogs compared to what dog?

I breed working line German Shepherds and have been active in Schutzhund, AKC obedience, SAR, and training Police Service Dogs. My dogs will perform basic obedience under distraction via gun fire, decoys yelling and screaming and throwing things, fire, streamers, vehicles, other animals, airhorns, food tossed by decoys, threatening decoys, tennis balls being dumped at their feet...whatever you can think of I have or will do it to ensure environmental neutrality and proof and reinforce obedience. I compare my dogs to other dogs who can perform the same feats under the same distraction and obey on a 100% non-negotiable basis. 

So ask yourself this: Will your dog run and break a heel if somebody ran towards you shooting blanks? Probably so if you train 100% R+...no big deal unless it's a real world application for you aka fireworks, thunder, people working, heck...what if you were crossing the road and there was a loud bang from a car wreck and your dog broke it's heel and snatched the slack out of the lead and ran into traffic? What if's are pointless until they happen.

Ask this: What would your dog do if you said "Down, stay" and I let him smell a hotdog and then threw it in plain sight? Or tossed a tennis ball?

What if a rabbit bounded out of the bushes and you said "DOWN"?

Of course all here will "claim" their dogs would comply. But be honest with yourself, would he/she really comply? Mine will, and I have proof, do you? If not, what makes YOU a good enough trainer to give opinions on training. What have you done/won that even makes you think your work is good? Everyone has opinions on how to train dogs, but very few people have DONE SOMETHING to prove it! Show me the money! Talk is cheap! Go take a video of your dog heeling while 3 or 4 friends toss balls and hotdogs scream, and yell and run around like nuts. I can almost guarantee everyone screaming "prong collars iz crual" will have dogs who're running, playing ball, or eating...anything but a nice off leash heel!


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## harrkim120

Thank you!!! I wanted to chime in so bad, but I didn't know how to put what I was thinking into words. You did it though!!!


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## harrkim120

CurtisM said:


> Last years Mondioring 3 champion Michael Ellis who also uses and advocates marker and clicker training uses corrections and e-collars as well, as do nearly every single other competitive dog trainer and person who use dogs for REAL work and not basic Petsmart "obedience" and parlor tricks.


Hey, hey now...I work at Petsmart. I don't follow their curriculum though. Hush...don't tell anyone!!! :wink:

It makes me sad though. Petsmart will just pull anyone off the street, give them a 3 week "training course" and call them a trainer. It's a joke and a shame. :frown:


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## CorgiPaws

CurtisM said:


> You can not teach a dog he MUST do anything with treats you can only suggest he should and that he will be rewarded if he does. And if he does not, that you will not give him the reward. To most dogs this is simply not enough to ensure behavior on a 100% consistent basis.


This statement is wrong. In fact, I very RARELY ever use treats in training. I use positive attention more than anything. Even the few times I do use treats, it it used at first, and less and less... and as time goes on, pretty much not at all. I don't even have treats in my house, and I have two dogs under one year, behaving just fine. 



CurtisM said:


> Michael Ellis who also uses and advocates marker and clicker training uses corrections and e-collars as well, as do nearly every single other competitive dog trainer and person who use dogs for REAL work and not basic Petsmart "obedience" and parlor tricks.


Whether or not I agree or disagree to these collars in training is already clear, so I won't go there for now. Perhaps shocks are relied on for training that intense. What the hell do I know, right? 
But let's be REAL here for a moment. The "average" pet owner is NOT training dogs for these kinds of events. They ARE doing basic PetSmart training and simple "tricks"... and still going to those measures. These are not competitive dog trainers. These are not police dogs, or anything of the sort. These are housepets, and owners who are relying on prongs and shocks for simple commands. It's just silly. I personally have NOT trained a working dog, so I don't have experience to pull from there, but what I HAVE done is rehabilitated a VERY aggressive GSD (that the gsd rescue in san diego would not even accept) and made him quite possibly the best companion animal ever. I VERY FIRMLY believe that at the very least, AGGRESSION issues should NEVER be dealt with anything but positive reinforcement, and basic commands are VERY doable with it as well. I very strongly believe that anything can be achieved through it, but as I have not done formal training or competitive training, I will at least be humble enough to say I have not been there, done that, so I'll leave it alone. 



CurtisM said:


> Ask this: What would your dog do if you said "Down, stay" and I let him smell a hotdog and then threw it in plain sight? Or tossed a tennis ball?


I'll be totally honest, this may or may not require an additional "leave it" command given with my Corgi.. and MAYBE my Boxer. But my GSD and my Cocker Spaniel.. easy peasy. Much like when I'm preparing their food, and drop some on the floor, NONE of them will go after it, except MAYBE my corgi, which is a result of me not working with him. (which i recognize. my fault, not his) I'm assuming you want video of this? I'll have my husband take one, as I'm not living in the same state right now. 



CurtisM said:


> What if a rabbit bounded out of the bushes and you said "DOWN"?


Living in utah, and hiking in the mountains, I've come across such things a number of times (heh.. and introducing a feline to the house) and I can honestly say that Champ, the GSD is excellent with "leave it" and I can not recall a time that he has not been excellent with it in at least two years. Do, while I don't make him lay down if there's distractions, (no, I think he can handle himself just fine) a leave it is all it takes. 



CurtisM said:


> What have you done/won that even makes you think your work is good?


I admittedly do not train for money, beyond puppy classes and whatnot, which hardly counts. My beliefs in dealing with aggression specifically though, are firmly grounded in experience, and that's not going to change, because I HAVE been there, DONE that... and very successfully using positive reinforcement ONLY.


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## papillonsandpitbulls

THANK YOU so much Curtis.. what I was thinking, mostly.. thank god for you lol


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## harrkim120

CorgiPaws said:


> I admittedly do not train for money, beyond puppy classes and whatnot, which hardly counts. My beliefs in dealing with aggression specifically though, are firmly grounded in experience, and that's not going to change, because I HAVE been there, DONE that... and very successfully using positive reinforcement ONLY.


Quick question:

What if you encountered someone with a person aggressive dog, and they are not strong enough to control it? What would you do then? This person does not know what to do themselves to fix it...they need external help, yet anytime they encounter someone new the dog becomes unpredictable. 

What would you recommend?


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## papillonsandpitbulls

BTW I forgot to add I do not have a human aggressive dog I have a dog who is aggressive towards some other male dogs. Just letting everyone know so nobody thinks I have some vicious untrained dog..


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## harrkim120

papillonsandpitbulls said:


> BTW I forgot to add I do not have a human aggressive dog I have a dog who is aggressive towards some other male dogs. Just letting everyone know so nobody thinks I have some vicious untrained dog..


Oh I know. I think you may have mentioned that somewhere. I was just giving a different example. :biggrin:


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## papillonsandpitbulls

Okay haha :biggrin:


----------



## CorgiPaws

harrkim120 said:


> Quick question:
> 
> What if you encountered someone with a person aggressive dog, and they are not strong enough to control it? What would you do then? This person does not know what to do themselves to fix it...they need external help, yet anytime they encounter someone new the dog becomes unpredictable.
> 
> What would you recommend?


I would say that with dogs like this, one of the main keys is setting the animal up for success. MOST aggression comes directly from insecurities. I'm a firm believer that before you can "fix" the reaction, you must first tackle not only the trigger, but also the issue in the first place. I will use my own dog for an example.


Champ. Champ was severely abused by a man. When I took him in, which by the way I only did because he saved my life in an armed attack, and I felt we needed eachother, and I owed him. Yeah, long story. Anyway, when I took him in, he was SO aggressive towards men, he nearly attacked my brother twice, and did bite him once. (the first morning i brought him home.. and my brother didn't even know champ was in the yard. 

So. what is the issue here? Champ does not trust men, and feels the need to defend himself against them, before he gets hurt. 
What is the trigger? the presence of strange men, especially those approaching him. 

What I did: Well, first, I PRAISED champ for not reacting to the presence of strange women. He didn't have an issue with women o begin with, so it might seem silly to praise him for something that's not even the problem... but I wanted to mark the behavior I was looking for. Then, I would PRAISE him for being non reactive to men all the way on the other side of the park (we worked ONLY in neutral territory at first, never at home) I never ever raised my voice at him, but always maintained a firm voice while working with him. I gradually worked on him being non reactive with men closer, and closer. If he started to growl, i'd turn with him on leash, and walk the other way, take a break, and start over. 
During this time, I protected him from unstable environments that might offset his progress. My brother was the only man in the house at this time, and we'd go in his room, without him there, and champ got used to his scent, and essentially, his presence. I did not expose him to men until i was certain he was ready for it, setting him up for success. It was VERY time consuming. 
We worked a lot at confidence building with basic commands as well, teaching the very basics, such as sit, down, leave it, drop it, etc... again, always setting him up for success. 
I will not lie, it took a YEAR until he could accept the presence of strange men without snarling or barking. But he did it. 




I will say that people with aggresive dogs have NO BUSINESS having them out in public and in situations for them to harm people. All of Champs training took place in my backyard, a family friend's backyard (park-sized) or at home. He was also LEASHED at all times in the beginning, when we were still in the trust building stage. 


In order to teach a dog something NEW, you must start with what they already KNOW. :wink:


----------



## RawFedDogs

CurtisM said:


> This is the gentleman I mntioned before!


Who said I was a gentleman?



> Yes, clicker training is useful. I don't like juggling a clicker, a leash, treats, and a ball on a rope though so I use "Yes!" To mark behaviors.


Doesn't matter whether you like it or not. Yes, I admit, its easier not to use one but not nearly as effective. It's been proven in scientific studies that a click is many times more effective than "yes!".



> Once my dog knows the commands I wish to teach I make sure he understands he MUST obey them. You can not teach a dog he MUST do anything with treats you can only suggest he should and that he will be rewarded if he does. And if he does not, that you will not give him the reward. To most dogs this is simply not enough to ensure behavior on a 100% consistent basis.


I can see you don't understand motivation. A properly modivated dog WANTS to obey every command without exception. He doesn't feel he MUST, he knows he WANTS to. Go back to school and learn motivation. It will make you a better dog trainer. How do you teach a 12,000lb elephant he MUST do anything?



> You bash corrections training as out dated and used by mediocre trainers.


Yes, thats true. Those things went out of favor with knowledgable trainers 15 years aog. I used to use coersion to get a dog to "obey" before I learned motivation. Motivation is much superior. I've done both. I know which is best.



> The best trainers in the World use corrections. Dr. Helmut Raiser has shown up on the Schutzhund field with a regular dog and taken home Bundessieger champions more than once, he uses corrections. Last years Mondioring 3 champion Michael Ellis who also uses and advocates marker and clicker training uses corrections and e-collars as well, as do nearly every single other competitive dog trainer and person who use dogs for REAL work and not basic Petsmart "obedience" and parlor tricks.


Funny, I have never heard of these so called "best trainers in the World".



> It's easy to claim you're a great trainer but the people I mentioned were literally at the time they won the best in the WORLD at their chosen training discipline winning out over thousands, tens of thousands of dogs to ascend to taking home national and international championships.


You would think I would have at least heard their names before, wouldn't you?



> What have you done to make you a great trainer?


Trained well over 1,000 dogs as well as cats, rats, mice, birds of prey, and chickens. Let me tell you one thing. If you can train a chicken, dogs are no challenge at all. Maintaining the attention of a chicken for more than a microsecond by itself makes you a great trainer. :smile:



> What competition do you compare yourself to?


Competitions just don't interest me. I used to have a lot of competitive trainers tell me I should enter my dogs as they would need no additional training but it just doesn't interest me. Never has. It looks SOOOOO boring. Doint the same things over and over again. What does it prove? Any fool can teach a dog to do a dozen or so behaviors.



> Is your dog's obedience better than the neighbor's spoiled hounds?


Hehe, of course. :smile:



> Is it CDX worthy?


Very



> Is it Schutzhund Nationals perfect?


Don't know ... never got into that stuff.



> You are a good trainer compared to whom and have well trained dogs compared to what dog?


Compared to other trainers my clients have used first to correct dogs misbehavior unsuccessfully using coersion to try to do what only positive reinforcement will do.



> I breed working line German Shepherds and have been active in Schutzhund, AKC obedience, SAR, and training Police Service Dogs. My dogs will perform basic obedience under distraction via gun fire, decoys yelling and screaming and throwing things, fire, streamers, vehicles, other animals, airhorns, food tossed by decoys, threatening decoys, tennis balls being dumped at their feet...whatever you can think of I have or will do it to ensure environmental neutrality and proof and reinforce obedience. I compare my dogs to other dogs who can perform the same feats under the same distraction and obey on a 100% non-negotiable basis.


Good for you. If I ever have a need for my dogs to do that, I'm sure I can teach them using positive methods.



> So ask yourself this: Will your dog run and break a heel if somebody ran towards you shooting blanks?


Don't know. No one has ever done that.



> Probably so if you train 100% R+...no big deal unless it's a real world application for you aka fireworks, thunder, people working, heck...what if you were crossing the road and there was a loud bang from a car wreck and your dog broke it's heel and snatched the slack out of the lead and ran into traffic? What if's are pointless until they happen.


Exactly



> Ask this: What would your dog do if you said "Down, stay" and I let him smell a hotdog and then threw it in plain sight? Or tossed a tennis ball?


They would hold it. Neither dog will move until I tell them it's ok. They know they won't be punished if they do but they are motivated to do what I tell them. You really should learn motivation.



> What if a rabbit bounded out of the bushes and you said "DOWN"?


I have called both my dogs off both deer and rabbit chases. No big deal.



> Of course all here will "claim" their dogs would comply. But be honest with yourself, would he/she really comply?


Yep, unquestionably. It has happened more than once. I usually let them chase until they get near the property line, then I call them off. It has gotten to the point, they will stop chasing by themselves at the property line.



> Mine will, and I have proof, do you?


I don't need proof.



> If not, what makes YOU a good enough trainer to give opinions on training.


15 years as a succesful professional dog trainer as well as trainer of wild animals. My amazing talents are not limited to just dogs. :smile:



> What have you done/won that even makes you think your work is good?


Pleased over a thousand clients who recommended me to others.



> Everyone has opinions on how to train dogs, but very few people have DONE SOMETHING to prove it!


I've done it.



> Show me the money!


I'm retired. Are you? 



> Talk is cheap! Go take a video of your dog heeling while 3 or 4 friends toss balls and hotdogs scream, and yell and run around like nuts.


Thats kid stuff. No problem at all.



> I can almost guarantee everyone screaming "prong collars iz crual" will have dogs who're running, playing ball, or eating...anything but a nice off leash heel!


Did you notice my posts about the fact I don't use leashes or collars at all during my training except to teach loose leash walking? I also don't teach heeling. I see no need for it. "Walking close" is all I need or taught for my clients. A strict heel is just not real world stuff.

Just a closing comment. Learn to motivate. It will do wonders for your ability to "train" dogs. :smile: BTW: I don't train, I teach.


----------



## CurtisM

Sorry lady/gentleman...person.

If you don't know who Helmut freakin' Raiser is you're not a student of dog training...not a very good one anyway. 

Again Michael Ellis is last years Mondioring 3 champ...a thorough student of dog training would know people who're at the cutting edge of modern dog training.

"How do you make a 12,000lbs Elephant do something" POOR ANALOGY! I hold a Masters in Biology, I know, and you should know and probably do, that elephants kill more handlers than any other animal in zoos and exhibits. You clicker trainers usually use Killer Whales as an example but not so much after that woman was killed at Disney World...

Comparing an Elephant or Killer Whale to a dog is like comparing a human to a simple, new world monkey. It's silly and not based in science. 

Again I can tell you're too good of a trainer to compete I bow down before your greatness! Seriously, 1,000 clients fell for that crap? Any knowledgeable consumer would at least like to know that the person they're paying and trusting with their dog was at least mildly competent. At least Petsmart trainers had a 3 week training course. You have "I don't need proof" and "I uhhh...never competed because I'm so good I uhhh...find it boring". 

Retired? No, I'm still in my prime and active in training and learning methods that actually work. Motivation is situational. But I bet you knew that. You seem to know everything except how to get 100% reliable, consistent results and how to back up your illusions of grandeur with physical results other than "Oh I don't compete, nobody knows me, but I'm the Rainman of training...yes...Judge Waaaapner"...

Go learn the basic principles of teaching animals and we can have this discussion intelligently because right now it's rather boring to easily have rebuttals to your novice points with no foundation in actual science or common knowledge basic dog training fundamentals. I suggest you go back to square 1 and read Colonel Most's book and move forward. I'll be around once you start talking science instead of grade school morals and false information such as e-collars causing burns. I guess I should be more careful not to electricute myself with a 9v battery lmfao!


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## CorgiPaws

CurtisM said:


> Go learn the basic principles of teaching animals and we can have this discussion intelligently because right now it's rather boring to easily have rebuttals to your novice points with no foundation in actual science or common knowledge basic dog training fundamentals.


I find it silly that you attack his methods when they WORK.. and without fear, pain, or punnishment. 



CurtisM said:


> I'll be around ...


I hope not.


----------



## harrkim120

CorgiPaws said:


> I would say that with dogs like this, one of the main keys is setting the animal up for success. MOST aggression comes directly from insecurities. I'm a firm believer that before you can "fix" the reaction, you must first tackle not only the trigger, but also the issue in the first place. I will use my own dog for an example.
> 
> 
> Champ. Champ was severely abused by a man. When I took him in, which by the way I only did because he saved my life in an armed attack, and I felt we needed eachother, and I owed him. Yeah, long story. Anyway, when I took him in, he was SO aggressive towards men, he nearly attacked my brother twice, and did bite him once. (the first morning i brought him home.. and my brother didn't even know champ was in the yard.
> 
> So. what is the issue here? Champ does not trust men, and feels the need to defend himself against them, before he gets hurt.
> What is the trigger? the presence of strange men, especially those approaching him.
> 
> What I did: Well, first, I PRAISED champ for not reacting to the presence of strange women. He didn't have an issue with women o begin with, so it might seem silly to praise him for something that's not even the problem... but I wanted to mark the behavior I was looking for. Then, I would PRAISE him for being non reactive to men all the way on the other side of the park (we worked ONLY in neutral territory at first, never at home) I never ever raised my voice at him, but always maintained a firm voice while working with him. I gradually worked on him being non reactive with men closer, and closer. If he started to growl, i'd turn with him on leash, and walk the other way, take a break, and start over.
> During this time, I protected him from unstable environments that might offset his progress. My brother was the only man in the house at this time, and we'd go in his room, without him there, and champ got used to his scent, and essentially, his presence. I did not expose him to men until i was certain he was ready for it, setting him up for success. It was VERY time consuming.
> We worked a lot at confidence building with basic commands as well, teaching the very basics, such as sit, down, leave it, drop it, etc... again, always setting him up for success.
> I will not lie, it took a YEAR until he could accept the presence of strange men without snarling or barking. But he did it.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I will say that people with aggresive dogs have NO BUSINESS having them out in public and in situations for them to harm people. All of Champs training took place in my backyard, a family friend's backyard (park-sized) or at home. He was also LEASHED at all times in the beginning, when we were still in the trust building stage.
> 
> 
> In order to teach a dog something NEW, you must start with what they already KNOW. :wink:


Ahhh...but what would you do if you could not control him on that leash? 

BTW: Congrats on getting him over it. :biggrin: Sounds like it was fun. LOL


----------



## CorgiPaws

harrkim120 said:


> Ahhh...but what would you do if you could not control him on that leash?


In what way? Too big? too strong? Ask someone else to help you. 

I'll be quite frank. If someone a dog that is SO aggressive, and they are SO incapable of anything, then that someone *probably* has NO BUSINESS having that dog.
DOg is on a leash, you walk away, he's forced to walk away. I've never tried to "control" my dogs, but rather teach them what is acceptable... and what is not, through trust. I DO think there's hope for just about every dog out there, but they have to be in the hands of someone capable to dealing with them. 
Dogs that are SO aggressive they can not be taken outside the home don't have much quality of life, either. Poor dogs.


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## harrkim120

CorgiPaws said:


> In what way? Too big? too strong? Ask someone else to help you.
> 
> I'll be quite frank. If someone a dog that is SO aggressive, and they are SO incapable of anything, then that someone *probably* has NO BUSINESS having that dog.
> DOg is on a leash, you walk away, he's forced to walk away. I've never tried to "control" my dogs, but rather teach them what is acceptable... and what is not, through trust. I DO think there's hope for just about every dog out there, but they have to be in the hands of someone capable to dealing with them.
> Dogs that are SO aggressive they can not be taken outside the home don't have much quality of life, either. Poor dogs.


Yeah, I was referring to the dog being too strong. 

And I totally agree that if a dog is that bad that they shouldn't own it...however many do. 

I had a family come in one time with a rottie/beagle mix. They could not control it AT ALL. They had to bring him in muzzled because he was too unpredictable. Like crazy unpredictable...I have no idea what these people did to this dog...or I guess didn't do. The dog had tried to bite others, and had succeeded in biting each of them. I'm sorry, but this family was a complete joke. However they decided to sign up for a private class with me. I recommended that they invest in a prong collar seeing as though they could BARELY control him on a buckle collar. I skipped over using a Gentle Leader because the dog became more interested in trying to get it off than anything else, but as soon as they took it off the dog was back to his aggressive ways. Not to mention that they struggled getting it on, and the dog injured himself trying to get it off. Anyway, long story short I'm very glad I did. It got to the point where I felt that we should try things with a muzzle off...in an enclosed room of course. We were working on some trust-building exercises when they decided it would be a good idea to let go of the leash ( I swear I think there was something mentally wrong with these people ). Once the dog realized this (which was shortly after I might add) he came lunging for my face as I was kneeling. Now I'm little...5'3" and about 100 pounds, and honestly if it wasn't for him wearing a prong collar I don't think that I would have been able to stop him from that position. 

Now I'm not an advocate for every dog, ever wearing them, but when used in certain circumstances, and when used by responsible people in a responsible manner I think they can be useful. Just my two cents. :biggrin:


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## RawFedDogs

CurtisM said:


> "How do you make a 12,000lbs Elephant do something" POOR ANALOGY! I hold a Masters in Biology, I know, and you should know and probably do, that elephants kill more handlers than any other animal in zoos and exhibits.


Yep, just goes to show how important it is not to mistreat an elephant. These rampaging elephants were not trained with positive methods. I've worked w/ elephants. I know how to handle them.



> You clicker trainers usually use Killer Whales as an example but not so much after that woman was killed at Disney World...


Yes, I have been to killer whale training seminars. I have met the whale that killed that woman and had previously killed another handler in Canada. The think is that the whale didn't kill out of mallace. He played with people to death. He didn't know how to control his strength. When I met that whale, he was kept in isolation and didn't associate with the other whales. Evidently, that changed since I was there because from news reports, he mingled with other whales. We were told not to go near that whale and to stay at least 10' from the edge of the pool.



> Comparing an Elephant or Killer Whale to a dog is like comparing a human to a simple, new world monkey. It's silly and not based in science.


Well dummy, I wasn't comparing the two as being similar animals other than size and strength. Nothing else. However both are among the most intellegent of animals. 



> Again I can tell you're too good of a trainer to compete I bow down before your greatness!


Why should I compete? I don't have a reason to and I don't enjoy it at all. There is way too much repitition and sameness in competition training. You work with just a few behaviors over and over and over and over and over ad nausium. It's just not by cup of tea. I don't have to prove to anyone how good a trainer I am. My clients have seemed satisfied. Of all the clients I've had and to be honest I don't know how many but in the many hundreds, I have only returned money to one. They had a 6 month old Golden who spend 22 hours a day alone in a crate in the basement. He was so excited to have company, I couldn't calm him down enough to work with.



> Seriously, 1,000 clients fell for that crap? Any knowledgeable consumer would at least like to know that the person they're paying and trusting with their dog was at least mildly competent.


Yep, had no complaints. Actually in my latter years of training, I turned down more clients than I accepted.



> At least Petsmart trainers had a 3 week training course. You have "I don't need proof" and "I uhhh...never competed because I'm so good I uhhh...find it boring".


It IS boring!!!



> Retired? No, I'm still in my prime and active in training and learning methods that actually work.


I never said any methods don't work. Unfortuntely they all work. Some are just more humane and more effective than others.



> Motivation is situational. But I bet you knew that. You seem to know everything except how to get 100% reliable, consistent results and how to back up your illusions of grandeur with physical results other than "Oh I don't compete, nobody knows me, but I'm the Rainman of training...yes...Judge Waaaapner"...


Your arguments are getting way weak now. I'm disappointed. I expected more from you.



> Go learn the basic principles of teaching animals and we can have this discussion intelligently because right now it's rather boring to easily have rebuttals to your novice points with no foundation in actual science or common knowledge basic dog training fundamentals.


I haven't seen you say one scientific thing. I have spent my entire life teaching both people and animals. I have studied all the teaching and learning priciples and am quite familiar with them.



> I suggest you go back to square 1 and read Colonel Most's book and move forward. I'll be around once you start talking science instead of grade school morals and false information such as e-collars causing burns. I guess I should be more careful not to electricute myself with a 9v battery lmfao!


HAHAHA 100 year old stuff, huh? Yeah, thats bout where your head is at. hehehe I can't believe you. You have lost all credibility with me now. :smile: I guess you love William Koehler too, don't you. I have read Koehler's book. I can't remember the name of it. I threw it away. I read it back in my early days of training and knew even then that following this guy was heading down the wrong path.

BTW: I saw the golden with burnt places on his neck. He had been to one the the local "boot camps" around here and came home that way. I worked with the dog and taught him all kinds of neat stuff. The owners were very happy with me and my methods.


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## kevin bradley

Dogs are best "trained" with love and compassion. 

Period. I've seen it over and over and over. 

Yes, you can break a Dog down into such a submissive state that he knows nothing but COMMANDS. You can do this. 

But what a wonderful way to go about it.


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## jiml

Have YOU had that little tap on the shoulder put around your neck? And used? I would like to see you do that and see your reaction. THEN keep rattling off all the crap you keep saying.>>>>>

the collar can be very mild but it is still used as an aversive in most training so if your against that the collar is def out nomater how mild. I use Muscle stimulation on people dailyb that is more intense than what "should" be used on any dog

this is a good example in my opinion on proper use of an e-collar 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c9a1j39ZxAM

It can also be paired w a treat (low levels of course) like a clicker for deaf dogs or work at distance. I have seen ardent "clicker trainers" use it this way. most like to use the vibration feature instead of the stim which is too bad because most dogs find vibe much more aversive at first than low level stim but I think it gets them past that "im shocking my dog" fear.


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## jiml

I will say that people with aggresive dogs have NO BUSINESS having them out in public and in situations for them to harm people. >>>

there is the conundrum. The need to socialize dog and expose them to the world without putting people and dogs in possible harms way.


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## Mia

What about the bark collar that sprays is anyone opposed to that? I know a few people who have used them.


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## magicre

Rye&Ted said:


> What about the bark collar that sprays is anyone opposed to that? I know a few people who have used them.


the spray is citronella, isn't it?

i simply cannot imagine taking the chance of citronella getting into my dog's eyes.....

i simply cannot imagine using such a collar or an e-collar or an invisible fence...

there are so many ways to train a dog to act in a socially acceptable manner....the old ways are just ...well, old.....and cruel.

i have a pug whose owner used the old ways. when we first got him, aluminum foil and baseball caps made him cower.....


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## k9capture_16

I will be the first to admit that I have used a prong and a zap collar on Lincoln. Until I seen the result of it. I still use the shock collar..but not for its zap. It has a vibration feature on it. So the electrical dial is turned down and their is tape over the buttons that control the zap function. So, in case its pressed, it wont zap. The vibration I use in case his mind wonders as I am still working on a few things with him. But most my training is clicker. I got rid of the prong...

I wasnt able to find just a collar that vibrates. So I opted to keep this one and tape the buttons etc. It was a $250 collar and I wasnt about to throw it out as it had some use (just not the shock). Now, I havent seen any burn marks on mine from using it..but here are pics of one dog that needed surgery to repair his

The TRUTH About Shock Collars | Facebook

I was introduced into negative methods via the trainer I hired when I didnt know any better. Now after research I can say no more prongs or zappers will be on my dogs neck. I even have a bark collar that was purchased at the same time the shocker was. It is sitting in my drawer and was going to sell it but dont think its right I do. Al though there are the neighbours behind me I am tempted to tie this collar around as they are so loud.

Positive methods here...no more shocks or prongs. The other day I saw a Dane with a prong on. Ive seen small dogs with prongs etc. Personally I think if people need to use such tools to control a dog, they shouldnt own one of that size.


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## xxshaelxx

Rye&Ted said:


> What about the bark collar that sprays is anyone opposed to that? I know a few people who have used them.


Citronella spray...I can't imagine it'd be enjoyable...

My brother used to run around with an orange peel, squirting people in the eyes, and he thought that just because he would do it to other people, he could do it to his current girlfriend's old dog. Of course, the dog didn't know that he was doing it for fun and really didn't....I don't know if I can necessarily say "mean the dog harm," but yeah. Either way, he tortured the dog so bad with the orange peels that it ended up having a heart attack one day.

Don't think I'll EVER spray a dog anywhere near the face with any kind of citric juices, sprays, etc...


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## SerenityFL

I would like to know how you can positive train a dog to stay away from alligators.

I live in the Everglades. I have to walk my dogs. Driving in to town to take them to go to the bathroom is not realistic.

I have brought the dogs to canals to teach them about alligators and the very first thing they want to do is jump right on up to the alligator and say hi. 

They have no fear of these animals.

This is extremely dangerous for them. 

How would you propose I teach them to stay away from them, run from them, bark at them, whatever, anything but GO UP TO THEM, in a positive manner? 

How would an ecollar not be beneficial in this instance?


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## jiml

"as painful" still means "painful". Remember the burn marks????>>>>

totally impossible for a bark collar/ e fence or e-collar to burn. the marks were pressure necrosis from the probes rubbing and being on too long


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## magicre

SerenityFL said:


> I would like to know how you can positive train a dog to stay away from alligators.
> 
> I live in the Everglades. I have to walk my dogs. Driving in to town to take them to go to the bathroom is not realistic.
> 
> I have brought the dogs to canals to teach them about alligators and the very first thing they want to do is jump right on up to the alligator and say hi.
> 
> They have no fear of these animals.
> 
> This is extremely dangerous for them.
> 
> How would you propose I teach them to stay away from them, run from them, bark at them, whatever, anything but GO UP TO THEM, in a positive manner?
> 
> How would an ecollar not be beneficial in this instance?


having been to the everglades and having lived in lauderhill where alligators lounge on the second hole of the golf course....whilst it might be a really tough decision, i might well use an e collar under those circumstances.

but, let me ask you...are there police dogs down where you are? if so, could you ask them how they are trained to not jump on the alligator thinking it's a playtoy?

that's a tough one, to be sure.....'cause those gators can move....


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## DaneMama

SerenityFL said:


> I would like to know how you can positive train a dog to stay away from alligators.
> 
> I live in the Everglades. I have to walk my dogs. Driving in to town to take them to go to the bathroom is not realistic.
> 
> I have brought the dogs to canals to teach them about alligators and the very first thing they want to do is jump right on up to the alligator and say hi.
> 
> They have no fear of these animals.
> 
> This is extremely dangerous for them.
> 
> How would you propose I teach them to stay away from them, run from them, bark at them, whatever, anything but GO UP TO THEM, in a positive manner?
> 
> How would an ecollar not be beneficial in this instance?


Negative reinforcement can be very effective in training dogs. Let me share a story that I heard in the training seminar I took a few weeks ago:

In the Army (can't remember when this story was, but I think it was not recently), they train dogs to find land mines. The way they trained these dogs NOT to get too close to them (for obvious reasons) was by using infrared beams of light to make an invisible barrier around the land mine. If the dog passed the invisible barrier two giant speakers would blast very loud noise directly at the dog. The noise would have such a negative effect the dogs would go into an intense panic, urinating and defecating everywhere. This punishment was SO effective that they had only a 0.02% of needing to do this exercise twice with a dog. Effective yes? The dogs never would go back across that barrier but the fallout rate was as high as 65%. Meaning 65% of those dogs put through that had such bad negative reactions to such a harsh (and effective) punishment they had to be put down. Effective? Not at all. 

Punishment is not necessarily a bad thing, it just has to be appropriate. Was the punishment in the story above appropriate? Not in any way, shape or form. But I can see training a dog to find landmines very similar to training a dog to NOT go too close to alligators. The use of punishment could be used in an effective manner, it just has to be appropriate. Figuring out what is appropriate punishment depends completely on the dog. Some dogs would have terrible fallout with a shock collar and others would learn quickly without any lasting effects. 

Let me share another story from that same seminar. The trainer/behaviorist (Sarah Kalnajs) that was speaking that day uses mostly positive reinforcement but uses punishment when it is appropriate. Sarah did this exercise with us who attended. She picked out a trainer and a trainee from the audience. The trainee would leave the room, while the trainer and the rest of the audience would decide on a behavior she wanted the trainee to do. As soon as we'd come to an agreement on a behavior (in our case the trainee had to get up on stage and shake Sarah's hand) the trainee would be let back in. The only guidance the trainer could do was say "yes" if she were doing something she wanted (and I say "she" a lot because there were only two men there out of close to 50 attendees). It only took the trainee to figure out what the trainer wanted from her in a matter of 2 minutes, and mind you this auditorium was HUGE. We did this exercise a few times with different people and tasks and each time it took less than 2 minutes to complete. 

So Sarah herself went to a different training seminar hosted by someone who used only shock collars to train her clients animals. After the seminar, Sarah did the same exercise with this shock collar trainer. But instead of using "yes" as the cue, Sarah put the shock collar on the trainer (who was now in the position of trainee) at a low setting. So instead of a "yes" this trainee got a "no" in the form of a shock. This lady only had to be shocked five times before she shut down and didn't complete the task. Sarah could have been shocking her the entire time she shut down, but she thought she got her point across. When the five minute allotment was up for the exercise, Sarah asked this woman why she stopped responding to the shocks. To her surprise the woman yelled at her "Well, you kept shocking me!!!" And then the little light bulb lit up above this shock collar using trainer that punishment is not the best way to train a dog. From then on this trainer crossed over to positive reinforcement and threw her shock collars out.

A shock collar would be very effective at training your dogs not to go near alligators. It would be the fast way to do it because dogs generally have a pretty strong reaction to negative reinforcement like pain. And they want to do whatever they can to NOT be shocked again. Effective, but the fallout rate can be much higher, possibly leading to behavioral issues. 

We used a shock collar with our wolf hybrid dog to get her not to run away when off leash, which only took about 3-5 shocks before she got the hang of it. She hasn't show any fallout or behavioral issues in the past 2 years of training her with it. Now we can take her out in the middle of no where and she will stick with us. Could we have used positive reinforcement with her to not run off? Absolutely, it just would have taken a lot more time and patience. With all that being said, I think there are a few cases where shock collars can be used properly and be beneficial.

Positively training your dogs to stay away from alligators will take a bit more time and patience, but the fallout rate is pretty much zero and not to mention your dog could possibly have a better bond with you because of it.

Does you dog know a "leave it" cue? If so, how well does you dog know "leave it"? How are your dogs on recall? Can you call your dogs off of anything or do they tend to be selective when you call them?

What I would suggest you do is really, really work on the "leave it" cue and their recall. Get their "leave it" cue to 100% as well as their recall. So that way every time you say "leave it" (to whatever it is you want them to leave alone) they automatically do. And every time you call them to you they come, no matter what.

What I would do if I were in your shoes, is use both. Mostly positive reinforcement and establishing those "leave it" and recall cues, really driving these home. But have the shock collar as back up (if it is appropriate for your dogs) to reinforce to the dogs to stay the hell away from alligators.

Hope this helps!


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## magicre

> What I would do if I were in your shoes, is use both. Mostly positive reinforcement and establishing those "leave it" and recall cues, really driving these home. But have the shock collar as back up (if it is appropriate for your dogs) to reinforce to the dogs to stay the hell away from alligators.


that sounds like it would work out the best....natalie.....well said. and very interesting to read.

serenity, aren't your dogs kind of youngish? the positive (leave it) would stay with them for life and the shock collar would act as the 'oops...i can't hear you, mom'.....


----------



## DaneMama

magicre said:


> that sounds like it would work out the best....natalie.....well said. and very interesting to read.
> 
> serenity, aren't your dogs kind of youngish? the positive (leave it) would stay with them for life and the shock collar would act as the 'oops...i can't hear you, mom'.....


Yes, I used to believe that everything should be done with 100% positive reinforcement. But after taking that seminar a few weeks ago, I found that you can use both positive reinforcement AND punishment to be effective. Besides there is no such thing as a true 100% positive reinforcement trainer anyways. The people who toot about being 100% positive are lying about it because guaranteed they use positive punishment (adding something to the situation) like a "no" word or sound, or use negative punishment (when something is taken away from the situation, like a toy, person or even the dog). These supposed 100% positive trainers just don't use tools like shock collars or even a spray bottle full of water. 

Sarah really put in into perspective when she said that parents of human children don't use positive reinforcement all the time or their kids would be running around crazy. Who says "yes" "yes" "yes" to a human kid ALL the time? No one who wants a well behaved child. Sometimes a "no" is necessary and warranted based on the behavior. Kids and dogs are very similar in their learning abilities its just that kids have the ability to reason and understand the "whys" of punishment. Dogs don't...they only have the ability to associate punishment with a particular thing, behavior or activity.


----------



## SerenityFL

danemama08 said:


> Does you dog know a "leave it" cue? If so, how well does you dog know "leave it"? How are your dogs on recall? Can you call your dogs off of anything or do they tend to be selective when you call them?
> 
> ...What I would do if I were in your shoes, is use both. Mostly positive reinforcement and establishing those "leave it" and recall cues, really driving these home. But have the shock collar as back up (if it is appropriate for your dogs) to reinforce to the dogs to stay the hell away from alligators.


Natalie, thank you very much for taking the time to write advice to help. My response will be lengthy, I hope you don't mind. 

Let me try to describe the area I live. It's fairly decent size area, (not just mine, I have neighbors), and there are two areas that are fantastic for the dogs to be able to run, release some energy, play with some of the neighbor dogs, etc.

Imagine an oval. In the middle of that oval, place a lake. Throw a couple of alligators in to that lake. On one side of the oval, put a road with homes. On the other side of the oval put a grassy area. On the top of the oval, put the highway. On the bottom of the oval, put water/sawgrass...the Everglades. On the outside of the entire oval, put the Everglades.

Road/Home side: If they go about 500 meters from my place, they hit the highway...that must be stopped. 

Also, each and every one of our backyards IS the Everglades. Alligators come in to our yards on a frequent basis. 

Lake: There is a fence around the lake but there are areas where the fence doesn't quite meet the ground and alligators can slide right on underneath that fence. 

Main, Big, Grassy area: Again, lake on one side, Everglades on the top/bottom and other side. It's almost like two football fields put together. 

Many times we have seen alligators up on the banks, sunning themselves.

What I'm trying to prevent are a couple of things:

1) do not run in to the brush/trees. I can't see you, I don't know what's in there, it's not as easy for me to get in there as it is for you...I may not be able to save you or get to you. Alligators are not the only concern. (Unfortunately we have a problem with large pythons as well.)

2) do not run in to the water at the ends of this oval area. One end, unless I have an airboat, I cannot save you. 

3) do not get so close to the fence. On leash, I can prevent this. Off leash...not so much.

4) do not go more than 200 meters away from me on the road or the large, grassy area. (The grassy area I mean only IN the grassy area, not to the sides in the brush.) 

Except for around the lake, there are no fences anywhere. I cannot install a fence, electric or otherwise, so I have to teach them where the boundaries are as well as watch for alligators.

My main concern about the positive reinforcement is that I know it can take time and patience, and I certainly have that for every other method of training, unfortunately, I don't have but one chance if they get too close to an alligator. Even if they are on leash, an alligator has no issues with chomping that dog right off of my leash. It has happened here before. (Clarification: Not to me.)

Another dog was also eaten when it was walking along the canal, (up by the highway), ahead of the owner. This was a person camping and we warned them not to do this very thing but apparently he knew better than us. Alligator came up and snapped that dog away right in front of him.

They do know the "leave it" command but they're fairly close to object of desire. I see their ears perk up and the body language tells me they are going to find great interest in the piece of whatever it is, I tell them to leave it, they do. I don't want them that close to an alligator though. They will not win.

We are still working on "come" or recall. They're only 5-6 months old so naturally, they haven't mastered that one yet. I don't expect them to have everything down at this young of age. I spend a considerable amount of time teaching them "come" in the house. They do this about 70% of the time...we have a ways to go.

Outside? One dog comes when I call about 90% of the time, the other one says, "See ya!!!" and off she goes.

The other thing is, I want them to learn to be aware...I don't know if that's possible? I don't want them running up to an alligator and then stopping and waiting for me to tell them to "come" or "leave it". I want them to be aware, know what it smells like, know what it sounds like, know what it looks like and know to stay FAR the hell AWAY from that thing. I don't want them to even consider going towards it. 

For example, say we are in the grassy area and I am throwing a ball. They are running after it, see an alligator crossing from the Glades to the lake...I want them, the second they see it, to stop and run back to me, not wait for me to say something. Yes, I am with them all the time but what if I don't see it before they do? Chances are I will but what if I don't?

When I took them to teach them what alligators are, I brought them towards the edge of the canal. I did not bring them close enough for the alligator to get them but I did bring them close enough to be able to SEE the alligator. I spotted the thing right away. They? "La, la, la, look at the birds! Aren't these birds so very interesting?"

I made an alligator call to get the alligator to come closer to the edge. I allowed it to get as close as I was comfortable and STILL those air heads did not see it. I finally had to physically take their heads and move them in the direction of the gator. Then they saw it. And their tails started to wag, they tried to step forward.

I thought, "I have to make this negative. This has to be negative." So I yanked back on their leashes. (Which was entirely ineffective because I don't have a choke chain or prong or anything that would get their attention. I also did not have a shock collar at the time.) But I was thinking that using the shock collar, I can do this again and when they see it, give them a bit of a shock so they associate the alligator with a negative thing. I don't know....the instructions don't say anything about alligators.

The only other thing I would use the collar for is recall or come. As it stands now, because they do not come to me every time I call, not even in the home, I am aware that we have more training and they are not allowed off leash outside. It is far too dangerous. 

But a quick way to get them to come when I call is use the collar. Inside I have no distractions. Will that change once I get them outside, off leash with many distractions? I may only have one chance to find out. I don't want to take that chance.

Ultimately, I want them to eventually be able to walk outside with me, together, have play time, rough house, tear up the grassy area, fling themselves about and chase each other round and round until they are tired. But I don't want them to go in to the brush, in the lake, under the fence, near the fence, more than 200 m away from me and I want them to stop at the boundaries. I want them to come to me immediately when I call. And I want them, when they do see an alligator, to turn and run away whether I say anything to them or not.

That's why I thought a shock collar may just work. And like I said, ONLY for those two purposes. Everything else? Patience. Time. Training. Consistency, consistency, consistency.

Your thoughts?


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## DaneMama

Thanks for your response. To me it sounds like you really need to work harder with them and recall. Our 4 month old puppy had 100% recall down by the age of 3months. It just took having the right incentive for her to come. Stubborn dogs with recall just haven't been given enough or the right incentive to come. They're more interested in whatever is across the room and not what you have to offer. What kind of training treats are you using?

I would only use the shock collar to associate negative reaction to alligators. Is there a way for you to expose them to trained alligator (if there is such a thing?)? Or even a dead one? Or just one that you're confident wouldn't be a threat to your dogs? If you can, expose them to these alligators and use the shock collar when they get close. Does that make sense?

I agree with you that you don't necessarily have the luxury of time and patience in your situation and that associating those alligators with something negative for your dogs is essential.


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## SerenityFL

danemama08 said:


> Thanks for your response. To me it sounds like you really need to work harder with them and recall. Our 4 month old puppy had 100% recall down by the age of 3months. It just took having the right incentive for her to come. Stubborn dogs with recall just haven't been given enough or the right incentive to come. They're more interested in whatever is across the room and not what you have to offer. What kind of training treats are you using?


I haven't worked that hard on it because I was told not to train them too much, too early. I've been working on the basics of "sit", "stay", "down", "leave it", how to walk properly, (not necessarily heel), how to act in the house, how to act out of the house when meeting other dogs and people, the basic manners. I have just started working on "come" in the past couple of weeks. Right now I'm using praise because I don't know what treats to give them on the raw diet. I used to give them treats and yes, it worked well in teaching them the other things, (ok, I also taught the girl how to shake...what? There was a tropical storm, we got out of work early and I was bored), but I gave all those treats away after I switched to raw. I'm trying to figure out what to use as replacement. 

One day I tried some beef strips for stir fry but that was before I was told to feed only chicken for two weeks, (three more days)...so the treat department has been temporarily shut down while I figure this out. But praise has been handed out.



> I would only use the shock collar to associate negative reaction to alligators. Is there a way for you to expose them to trained alligator (if there is such a thing?)? Or even a dead one? Or just one that you're confident wouldn't be a threat to your dogs?


No such thing. You cannot train alligators. Even if their mouths were taped shut, they can still do a lot of damage to my dogs with their tails. They could easily break their bones or rip them. Dead alligators do not stay around long here. They are quickly picked up by Fish and Game. Every alligator, even the young ones, are a threat. The young, smaller ones can fillet you and are quite agile, moving quickly.



> If you can, expose them to these alligators and use the shock collar when they get close. Does that make sense?


That's what I was thinking, I think. Bring them back to the canal, show them an alligator and when I know they see it, give 'em a bit of a shock so they associate that with the alligator.



> I agree with you that you don't necessarily have the luxury of time and patience in your situation and that associating those alligators with something negative for your dogs is essential.


I'm still going to work on the "come" or recall thing before I even bother to do this, though. I want them to have that down 100% before I use a shock collar. Because there really isn't a point to do this until they are going to be off leash and they won't be off leash until they come back to me every single time I call.

So, while I know it may shock them or perhaps cause some pain, I think the alternative is much, much worse.


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## DaneMama

Where did you hear not to teach them too much too early? I have always started as much training as early as possible with all my pups. Zuri learned all of her basic cues very early on, probably within the first few weeks. I always urge people to start training as early in puppyhood as possible because the window of opportunity closes at about 5-6 months of age where it's the easiest to train and expose the pup to as many new things as possible.

For training treats we don't worry too much about it staying "raw" as possible. To me it's more important to train my pups first and foremost than stay strict on PMR. What we do is go up and down the treat aisle at PetSmart and pick out about 6-10 different kinds of soft/chewy treats, trying to keep them as "good" as possible. We take them home and cut them up into tiny pieces about the size of a pea. We mix them all together in one big combination of treats so they don't get bored with just one kind. We then add in a "special" type of treat when doing a training session, like hotdog or string cheese or jerky. That increases the incentive a lot!

I haven't noticed these treats causing any issues to Zuri or any other pups we've raised. Definitely makes training effective and simple. 

Well if there aren't any trained gators you'll have to just use the ones near your home. Just be super careful and I wouldn't hold back too much with giving a good shock. This is most definitely a life or death situation that you may not have a second chance with!


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## SerenityFL

danemama08 said:


> Where did you hear not to teach them too much too early?


Vets, trainers...they say not to do "formal" training until at least 5-6 months old. I always thought, "formal" meant the more complicated stuff like "heel" and recall and things like that. We're still working on basic training because it's twice as long and twice the work with two. 



> For training treats we don't worry too much about it staying "raw" as possible. To me it's more important to train my pups first and foremost than stay strict on PMR.


I understand that and eventually would have ended up doing the same but I was told to feed them only chicken for the first two weeks to get them adjusted to the raw diet. So I haven't been really sure what to give them as treats. 



> Well if there aren't any trained gators you'll have to just use the ones near your home. Just be super careful and I wouldn't hold back too much with giving a good shock. This is most definitely a life or death situation that you may not have a second chance with!


Absolutely I will be super careful. My only interest is getting them to see the gator, not get close to it. Once I know they see it and are focused on it, that is when I would do the shock. I just don't know how MUCH of a shock to give. The collar/remote I have goes from 0-9. It has sound, vibrate and then shock. I seriously doubt I would have to use 9 but is 1 enough? I don't know. And are they too young for this? I don't want to destroy what I've been trying to build with these hoodlums, but it is absolutely necessary, no second chances, that they get the picture, "This? You stay away from. RUN as fast as you can away and back to me."

I'll probably need to shock them, I just don't want to put it on too high a level or do it to them too young. Or maybe I'm over thinking this. That's always a possibility.


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## SerenityFL

By the way, been meaning to "thank" you guys..did it a bit late. Not used to that feature.


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## DaneMama

Thanks for the "thanks" but it's not necessary! I'm happy to help regardless, but it's also nice LOL

As far as the shock goes, I say try it on yourself at the lowest setting and go up one level until it seems uncomfortable to you. Dogs have a lot higher threshold for that kind of stimulation. Then depending on their reaction to that level adjust if necessary. I would also put it on the tone that goes off a second before the shock. That way your dogs can associate the sounds with the shock so eventually you can just use the tone without the shock at all.


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## magicre

serenity, having lived in florida.....i know what you mean by alligators....and dogs and people, for that matter.

as i said before, i'd use the shock collar. i hate them. but better a little sting, since we're not talking taser strength, than dinner for a 'gator....

you're dealing with labs...they are water dogs...they are playful and they are wonderful companions.....they'll either grow up wanting to hunt them or play with them. my feeling would be better to be afraid of them and run home to mommy....

i don't think you're overthinking it...i think you're thinking....and starting them young...because it is a real danger where you live....and let's not forget the pythons....


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