# apparently a lot of you here are agaisnt vaccines?



## RCTRIPLEFRESH5

i like to think i know a decent amount about dog food, and i have heard about the dangers of vaccines in humans, but what is everyone's opinions on vaccines for dogs?
I saw in a thread that Scarlett O posted that she hadnt given her dog a rabies shot, and I figured rabies shots were something that were not even debatable!

is it fair to say people here also are against human vaccine


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## CorgiPaws

There are several members here who take a zero vaccine approach with their pets. I'm on the fence with the issue personally, but do take a limited vaccine approach. 
I think that most of the members aren't entirely against vaccines but rather are against the over vaccination of pets. Annual vaccines simply are not necessary. Bordetella vaccines are not necessary period! 

I am researching vaccines for humans currently, and my husband and I want to expand our family soon and it is a decision we will have to make. I am not decided for certain, but I am fairly confident in saying I will take a no-vaccine approach with my kids. From what I know about both canine and human vaccines, so far that's the direction I am leaning.


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## RCTRIPLEFRESH5

PuppyPaws said:


> There are several members here who take a zero vaccine approach with their pets. I'm on the fence with the issue personally, but do take a limited vaccine approach.
> I think that most of the members aren't entirely against vaccines but rather are against the over vaccination of pets. Annual vaccines simply are not necessary. Bordetella vaccines are not necessary period!
> 
> I am researching vaccines for humans currently, and my husband and I want to expand our family soon and it is a decision we will have to make. I am not decided for certain, but I am fairly confident in saying I will take a no-vaccine approach with my kids. From what I know about both canine and human vaccines, so far that's the direction I am leaning.


even a sugar cube polio vaccine?


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## Scarlett_O'

Pretty much exactly what Linsey said. I gave, and plan on continuing for any future puppies, Rhett his first set of puppy shots, but I do not plan on giving him any more. And I'm VERY torn about the rabies....as you saw in that post!

But as for human ones....all I can say is at 7 I was given some in my leg and couldn't walk for nearly 3 weeks while my brother was given them in his arm and was perfectly fine....so I also plan on doing a NO or absolute minimal with any human offspring we might have!!!!:wink:


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## sozzle

I plan on only giving my dog the minimum vaccines (or not at all) but if I want to put him in kennels he has to have kennel cough. I have not vaccinated my children aged 14 and 10.
I think in USA it is harder for you to get away with not vaccinating your kids in that certain kindergartens and schools won't accept your children unless you state religious or cultural reasons which a friend's sister in Florida has done.
(My dog was vaccinated, desexed, microchipped, registered with local council, wormed, deflead, teeth cleaned etc before we adopted him anyway at age 5 so we had no choice in those things. I plan not to worm or flea if I can get away with it also).
ps. we don't have rabies in New Zealand thankfully


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## RCTRIPLEFRESH5

sozzle said:


> I plan on only giving my dog the minimum vaccines (or not at all) but if I want to put him in kennels he has to have kennel cough. I have not vaccinated my children aged 14 and 10.
> I think in USA it is harder for you to get away with not vaccinating your kids in that certain kindergartens and schools won't accept your children unless you state religious or cultural reasons which a friend's sister in Florida has done.
> (My dog was vaccinated, desexed, microchipped, registered with local council, wormed, deflead, teeth cleaned etc before we adopted him anyway at age 5 so we had no choice in those things. I plan not to worm or flea if I can get away with it also).
> ps. we don't have rabies in New Zealand thankfully


what's wrong with worming and fleaing???

and yeah that's the bad thing about adopting...they desex the dogs :\


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## sozzle

I think the worming and fleaing thing is very personal. So far any treatment my dog had would've worn off by now. As he has a very thin coat and he doesn't scratch I am hoping I know when he has fleas (summer maybe?), we also don't own cats which are great for spreading fleas. Apparently they are more likely to catch them from the grass where cats have been than from another animal. They will not necessarily 'jump' from one animal to another but stay on the host. I am not convinced of the safety of flea treatments but I dare say he will be flea treated at some stage but I don't want to be doing it every 2 months. Worming - how do you know if you dog has worms unless you test for it? I don't know, dogs are pretty gross creatures at times in that they will eat lots of unpleasant things given the chance which may be a way of contracting parasites. Same reason as above. Funnily enough my father in law is a retired veterinary parasitologist and doesn't worm his dog but does use flea treatment? and I have talked to him. He reckons it's better to treat dogs for fleas when they haven't got any but not to regularly deworm your dog unless you know it has worms which of course you can't tell catagorically without doing a faeces test. 
Maybe someone else with more experience can chime in.
Re de-sexing I am glad he is de-sexed as I think it would just be too much of a worry plus there are enough unwanted greyhounds in this world as it is.


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## RawFedDogs

Worming and defleaing is putting poisons into your dog's body. My dogs have never been wormed since I have had them. I only give flea meds when I see fleas. I give heartworm "prevenative" every 45 days during mosquito season. It's another poison that people regularly give their dogs. Thor, 6yo, had puppy vaccinations and hasn't had anything since. Abby hasn't had any vaccinationss in about 6 or 7 years. There are many physical and behavioural problems some dogs have that have been attirbuted to vaccinations.


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## chowder

I had my kids vaccinated because at that time it hadn't been really researched as much. Also, they attended public schools and it's mandatory unless you home school them. They did NOT have the chicken pox vaccine at the time and both of mine ended up with chicken pox (one of them severe). We think that it might be the cause of my one son's type 1 diabetes (it is an autoimmune disease that can be caused by exposure to a virus). So, if I had to do it again, I would have vaccinated him for chicken pox in hopes of preventing that. I'm not sure what I would do about the new HPV vaccine in children, every teenager I seem to know has the disease. I might just skip the MMR and get the other vaccines now. There is so much more to consider with children then with dogs.....exposure, prevalence of disease, laws, school, etc. 

I was in the military so I have been vaccinated for things that I'm not even sure of. They just lined us up and shot us full of stuff. I survived. But, I do not vaccinate my dogs past 1 year old anymore except for rabies.


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## Liz

I do not vaccinate my dogs except for rabies which is now required and that will wait until the pup is a year whenever possible. With puppies who are sold we require a minimal if any vaccine policy. My children are 15 and 12 and have never had vaccinations, they are never sick, if they catcha cold they are down for a day or day and half and fine the next. I researched alot before making my decisions and with all we do to maintain our dogs health and feed them the best we can afford I don't want to introduce toxins like unnecessary vaccines, topical flea treatments, toxic wormers, etc. There is usually a holistic way to treat disease and pests they just take a little more time and effort.
I have also see strage behavior in pups that were fully vaccinated versus those who are nan vaccinated or very minimally vaccinated. There is tons of info out there you just have to take time to sort through and find the facts.


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## chowder

Liz,

What are the Washington laws for children and public schools? I was wondering how much that varied from state to state. We had to supply shot records for 1st grade for MMR and DPT. The only thing that was voluntary was hepatitis and my kids were already in middle school when it first came out (we didn't get it).


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## whiteleo

PuppyPaws said:


> There are several members here who take a zero vaccine approach with their pets. I'm on the fence with the issue personally, but do take a limited vaccine approach.
> I think that most of the members aren't entirely against vaccines but rather are against the over vaccination of pets. Annual vaccines simply are not necessary. Bordetella vaccines are not necessary period!
> 
> I am researching vaccines for humans currently, and my husband and I want to expand our family soon and it is a decision we will have to make. I am not decided for certain, but I am fairly confident in saying I will take a no-vaccine approach with my kids. From what I know about both canine and human vaccines, so far that's the direction I am leaning.


So, you don't require Bordatella or annual vaccines for dogs to come into your daycare?


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## Jacksons Mom

I take the minimum approach as well. I'm not comfortable with NO vaccines -- Jackson is often around other dogs, dog parks, public places, etc, so I am comfortable with him having some kind of "protection". I did the typical DHPP puppy vaccines at 8, 12 and 16 weeks. He didn't get his rabies vaccine until he was over 7 months old. Then he got the DHPP booster at 1 year, as well as rabies (on a different day) and I'm fairly certain that I will only do rabies every 3yrs for the rest of his life, mainly because it's required by law.

I haven't decided if I'm going to give him one more booster at 4 years old or not, when he would be 'due'. When he had to be admitted into the hospital last week, they asked for all those vaccine records and I don't know what I would have done had they not been able to help him because he wasn't UTD on vaccines according to their standards. I am not sure how that works.

We do opt to get bordatella vaccine (through the nostril) because every time he HASN'T had it.... he's gotten kennel cough, twice. And it's annoying. The bordatella seems to prevent it so, yeah.


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## Caty M

RCTRIPLEFRESH5 said:


> even a sugar cube polio vaccine?


All the cases of polio since I believe the 1980s were caused by the polio vaccine.. :wink:


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## Maxy24

I am not against vaccines, but I think you need to know they CAN cause problems, but also prevent disease. Knowing that, it makes sense to use what your dog NEEDS. Rabies is required by law, so if you bring your dog to the vet he's going to get rabies. I think most vets do three years but if yours doesn't I'd find a new one. We could get Lymes but I chose not to for his first summer to see what the ticks were like. He's gotten two ticks, one deer tick. So it's pretty safe to say his chances of Lymes are slim. If that changes and ticks start infesting him we might get the vaccine. We also chose not to get him the flu shot, I don't know any dogs with the flu and if he got it chances are he'd be fine as he's young and healthy and we wouldn't just wait around for it to turn into something serious.

As a puppy he got all of his shots because he was in a rescue. I would not have gotten him kennel cough and not lepto but still would have gotten most others. Puppies are fragile, they catch the same disease that you barely notice in an adult and it'll kill them. At his next visit he'll probably get rabies because they do a booster one year after the first injection before moving to every three years. 

You have to think about what is YOUR dog likely to get and what the severity of the disease is. My aunt's dog gets kennel cough vaccines because she is regularly groomed. Tucker doesn't because he is not groomed or boarded, doesn't even go to dog parks. The chances of him getting it is slim and on the off chance that he does it's usually not a terrible disease. I don't give Lymes because I haven't found ticks to be awful here and they are not terribly hard to find on him.


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## Jacksons Mom

Maxy24 said:


> I am not against vaccines, but I think you need to know they CAN cause problems, but also prevent disease. Knowing that, it makes sense to use what your dog NEEDS. Rabies is required by law, so if you bring your dog to the vet he's going to get rabies. I think most vets do three years but if yours doesn't I'd find a new one. We could get Lymes but I chose not to for his first summer to see what the ticks were like. He's gotten two ticks, one deer tick. So it's pretty safe to say his chances of Lymes are slim. If that changes and ticks start infesting him we might get the vaccine. We also chose not to get him the flu shot, I don't know any dogs with the flu and if he got it chances are he'd be fine as he's young and healthy and we wouldn't just wait around for it to turn into something serious.
> 
> As a puppy he got all of his shots because he was in a rescue. I would not have gotten him kennel cough and not lepto but still would have gotten most others. Puppies are fragile, they catch the same disease that you barely notice in an adult and it'll kill them. At his next visit he'll probably get rabies because they do a booster one year after the first injection before moving to every three years.
> 
> You have to think about what is YOUR dog likely to get and what the severity of the disease is. My aunt's dog gets kennel cough vaccines because she is regularly groomed. Tucker doesn't because he is not groomed or boarded, doesn't even go to dog parks. The chances of him getting it is slim and on the off chance that he does it's usually not a terrible disease. I don't give Lymes because I haven't found ticks to be awful here and they are not terribly hard to find on him.


Agree.

Jackson HAD lymes disease, or tested positive for it, in 2010 but I still opt not to get the lyme vaccine. I don't think it's worth it. Lymes is easily treated if caught early and I now keep him on preventatives year round. He tested negative for it in 2011.

I gave my reasoning above for bordatella, otherwise I wouldn't do it.

I would never get the dog flu vaccine, no way. lol


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## DoglovingSenior

RCTRIPLEFRESH5 said:


> i like to think i know a decent amount about dog food, and i have heard about the dangers of vaccines in humans, but what is everyone's opinions on vaccines for dogs?
> I saw in a thread that Scarlett O posted that she hadnt given her dog a rabies shot, and I figured rabies shots were something that were not even debatable!
> 
> is it fair to say people here also are against human vaccine


Darn, I said that I would NOT read this <sigh>. Hello Dave, I was first introduced to the dangers of pet vaccination at the clinic that I traveled to take my Heart Dog to in(*1998)*. The Vet-Oncologist asked had I been getting regular vaccinations "OF COURSE"! Found that he only vaccinated his dogs every three years - that the vaccines were very toxic. Later I learned from other animal nutritionists that after 2 or 3 years of vaccines I should have titres taken. I began that immediately. That is when i began taking a good long look at the Vaccine Protocols. I haven't had a puppy in MANY years but continue to ck titres just in case <sm> If I had a pup now, I would probably NOT vaccinate after the first year & would instead try build up immune system before & detox after. A Rabies shot is required in GA & we do get critters on our land, like raccoons. My dogs have been exposed to many different dogs & have never been sick from anything that they could "catch".
As to people-I probably do favor some vaccines . I grew up when parents were afraid of the summers-Polio (I contracted non-paralytic polio) my parents sent me further North to summer camp than D.C. During the 40'-early 60's, when measles could and did kill. Chicken pox kept me out of school for almost 2 months as I lay close to death several times, I got it and the polio at the same time. Did I vaccinate my son when he came along-you betcha! I only wish that I had insisted on the Smallpox vaccine. What is so frightening to me is that diseases that *had been* eradicated in our country have reared their ugly heads again (polio,measles). And ,a lab with the small pox bacteria could possibly wipe out our nation. Being exposed to measles during pregnancy could cause a woman to miscarry if she contracted Rubella(?). Even now, those of us who had chicken pox as children live in fear of "Shingles" My mom & my aunt suffered from that painful & disfiguring virus. As soon as it came out, I had my Shingles Vaccine few years ago. If I could be shown that these diseases could NEVER harm my progeny then, I would not vaccinate even with my fears I would try a more natural approach like I do with my animals. I too am concerned with the dangers presented by vaccinations-when I went to college I had only met ONE child who had Autism-now as a teacher, I was introduced to so many. The *best *defense is a strong immune system. But how many children have these strong immune systems-remember we live in a country whose greatest gift to culinary arts is McDonalds. Where school cafeterias serve Pizza Hut & Papa John's Pizza and have Coke machines. 
I had to write a graduate paper in bio-geography-I chose the Influenza Pandemic of 1918=19.- it had always fascinated me as one of my grandmother's had worked as a nurse. We will Never know how many actually died . Probably as many as 50,000,000 ( if not more) some countries did not keep records and some did not give the world their info until the 90's.. The paper was good enough that my Stanford educated Professor wanted me to submit it for reading at a conference they were having in South Africa on the Pandemic - of course, I did not. :O) But the research that I conducted scared the" beejeezus" out of me. This is just MY opinion and I know that many have "opinions" just as good & also backed by facts. Not trying to start an argument!!! Bye for now. :O)


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## wags

Hmmm I always get the dogs their rabies shots ! Am I a minority here? I believe here in Illinois its a law. Am I being lead astray?
As for the kids well they got their shots they were suppose to when little. Now their old enough to do what they want. As for me ummm I do get the flu shot . The hubby refuses! But I have never ever gotten sick from it so its no biggie for me!


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## doggiedad

it's not close to fair to ask if the forum
members are against human vaccines. that's
ludicrously thinking and borderline insulting
that you would ask.

my dogs are fully vaccinated and so are my children.



RCTRIPLEFRESH5 said:


> i like to think i know a decent amount about dog food, and i have heard about the dangers of vaccines in humans, but what is everyone's opinions on vaccines for dogs?
> I saw in a thread that Scarlett O posted that she hadnt given her dog a rabies shot, and I figured rabies shots were something that were not even debatable!
> 
> is it fair to say people here also are against human vaccine


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## RCTRIPLEFRESH5

ugh im sso confused what to do with winston in regards to flea/tick

winston has a history of whipworms.he is clear now but still thinking i should give interceptor
and as for frontline, it seems like there's still a lot of nasties outside biting.


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## RCTRIPLEFRESH5

doggiedad said:


> it's not close to fair to ask if the forum
> members are against human vaccines. that's
> ludicrously thinking and borderline insulting
> that you would ask.
> 
> my dogs are fully vaccinated and so are my children.


how is that insulting? im curious for my own health...im due for a tetinus...like 5-10 years overdue....


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## RCTRIPLEFRESH5

wags said:


> Hmmm I always get the dogs their rabies shots ! Am I a minority here? I believe here in Illinois its a law. Am I being lead astray?
> As for the kids well they got their shots they were suppose to when little. Now their old enough to do what they want. As for me ummm I do get the flu shot . The hubby refuses! But I have never ever gotten sick from it so its no biggie for me!


wags you also give flea and worm if i recall right?


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## chowder

RCTRIPLEFRESH5 said:


> ugh im sso confused what to do with winston in regards to flea/tick
> 
> winston has a history of whipworms.he is clear now but still thinking i should give interceptor
> and as for frontline, it seems like there's still a lot of nasties outside biting.


Have you been seeing any ticks or fleas on Winston now? I only use it on my dogs when I actually see any fleas or ticks. I live in the south and manage to use the Advantix no more then once or twice a year. I use it once at the beginning of the summer and I also spray our yard at the same time. I did the dogs at the beginning of May and haven't had to use it again since then. 

I give the Interceptor every 45 days. So far my dogs have never had any worms and Rocky has never been wormed. That is the least amount I feel safe giving heatworm preventative since we live in a mosquito prone area. It seems to have taken care of any potential worms, too.


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## Maxy24

Wanted to add that I don't use a flea/tick preventative. I find ticks fast enough that I'd likely pluck them off before frontline would kill them. Advantix repels but is lethal if a cat were to lick him and my dog and cats get pretty darn close. If he was a dark colored dog perhaps I'd have trouble finding ticks, but he's not and I don't. No sign of fleas, I still wouldn't use it as a preventative but instead as a treatment for those. Again, whether or not you need it depends on your area.

My aunt and uncle's dog Phoebe began having reactions to frontline a couple of years ago. She would act sort of absent and lethargic the day that they gave it to her. But then last time they gave it to her she stopped reacting to them at all, wouldn't eat or respond to their voices. She would randomly turn her head and snap towards her back end like someone has poked her back there. It really freaked them out. She was fine after 2-3 days, but it clearly wasn't good for her. So they don't use it anymore.


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## magicre

RCTRIPLEFRESH5 said:


> even a sugar cube polio vaccine?


those were stopped a while ago.

polio is now on the rise, especially in certain amish and mennonite communities..

i'm a believer in certain vaccines...for humans and for dogs...


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## magicre

Caty M said:


> All the cases of polio since I believe the 1980s were caused by the polio vaccine.. :wink:



that is untrue. the amish did not vaccinate their children against polio or smallpox....and cases have broken out in certain communities, along with measles, german measles..

whilst i think some vaccines are ludicrous, such as hepatitis, chicken pox, and some others....there are some that were eradicated like pertussis, that i think children should have. it's not a pretty sickness.

what i think needs to happen is the stoppage of combinations of vaccines...give one at a time, not five in ones and three in ones....that's just dangerous.


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## RCTRIPLEFRESH5

chowder said:


> Have you been seeing any ticks or fleas on Winston now? I only use it on my dogs when I actually see any fleas or ticks. I live in the south and manage to use the Advantix no more then once or twice a year. I use it once at the beginning of the summer and I also spray our yard at the same time. I did the dogs at the beginning of May and haven't had to use it again since then.
> 
> I give the Interceptor every 45 days. So far my dogs have never had any worms and Rocky has never been wormed. That is the least amount I feel safe giving heatworm preventative since we live in a mosquito prone area. It seems to have taken care of any potential worms, too.


 nah, i havent seen any on him, but he goes in our backyard which is most likely a good spot for ticks. I know ive been feeling things bite me when i walk him around the neighborhood.

i figure , the whole point of FL is to prevent trouble before it starts, and giving him the frontline after I see things is useless but if it's not i guess i can give him one final dose and then take that approach...or no dose at all i suppose.

but how is that different than the worms? If you have regular fecal exams, you can just wait until your dog tests positive to give interceptor?


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## magicre

doggiedad said:


> it's not close to fair to ask if the forum
> members are against human vaccines. that's
> ludicrously thinking and borderline insulting
> that you would ask.
> 
> my dogs are fully vaccinated and so are my children.


borderline insulting? unfair?

it's a discussion forum....and people believe what they believe....it is also their right, or should be....whether to vaccinate or not....

what you've just said is dismissive and insulting, and not borderline at all....you just went for the jugular, didn't you, when this is a very real and valid question.


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## RCTRIPLEFRESH5

magicre said:


> those were stopped a while ago.
> 
> polio is now on the rise, especially in certain amish and mennonite communities..
> 
> i'm a believer in certain vaccines...for humans and for dogs...


maybe im not understanding, but if polio is on the rise, why stop the sugar cube vaccine? isnt it needed now more than ever???

or maybe you are saying, we got so comfortable about polio, and felt it was eradicated, that we stopped the vaccines, and now it has returned?


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## Caty M

I don't give vaccines. I realize I take a risk in not- but I am knowledgeable in the early signs of a disease like parvo and know what to do immediately. For the average dog owner that feeds Kibbles N Bits, I say at least do the puppy series and the booster at one year. For dog owners who feed a proper diet (which DOES support and boost the immune system), have researched on the pros and cons of vaccines and communicable disease, I say weigh your options. With my experiences with vaccines I think it's better not to vaccinate. If I lived in the South I'd probably get the rabies vaccine especially if I lived in a rural area.


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## Caty M

doggiedad said:


> it's not close to fair to ask if the forum
> members are against human vaccines. that's
> ludicrously thinking and borderline insulting
> that you would ask.
> 
> my dogs are fully vaccinated and so are my children.


What is YOUR dog's vaccination protocol? Yearly?

Why do you think everything is offensive? It's a discussion forum. People have opinions.

There was no name calling so I am failing to see what is so offensive about this?..


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## DoglovingSenior

RCTRIPLEFRESH5 said:


> maybe im not understanding, but if polio is on the rise, why stop the sugar cube vaccine? isnt it needed now more than ever???
> 
> or maybe you are saying, we got so comfortable about polio, and felt it was eradicated, that we stopped the vaccines, and now it has returned?


The sugar cube is the live vaccine - the injection is not


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## chowder

RCTRIPLEFRESH5 said:


> nah, i havent seen any on him, but he goes in our backyard which is most likely a good spot for ticks. I know ive been feeling things bite me when i walk him around the neighborhood.
> 
> i figure , the whole point of FL is to prevent trouble before it starts, and giving him the frontline after I see things is useless but if it's not i guess i can give him one final dose and then take that approach...or no dose at all i suppose.
> 
> but how is that different than the worms? If you have regular fecal exams, you can just wait until your dog tests positive to give interceptor?


If I'm not seeing any ticks or fleas, then I don't see a point in putting a poison on the dogs. The stuff works really fast, so if I see a lot of ticks or fleas suddenly on them, then I use it and go and spray the yard. If you are feeling things bite you around the neighborhood it is probably gnats or mosquitos. Ticks would stay stuck on you and fleas would stay on you and follow you and Winston home!
Interceptor is to prevent heartworms mostly, but it also is suppose to prevents other worms. To be perfectly honest with you, I never have my dogs fecal tested for worms. Worms are mostly a condition of young, old, or malnurished dogs (ie. strays and rescues). In all my years of owning dogs and of working for vets, I have never had any of my dogs test positive for worms. I realize this is controversial, and I had one vet try and convince me that the CDC recommended routine worming of all dogs every 6 months, but the ONLY time that Chelsy ever got really sick from a vet visit was when they gave her a strong dose of 'routine' worming medicine. I think that any dog that is well fed and well taken care of can fight off any worm infestation, just as healthy young children do. You don't see people being wormed routinely, do you? Just my opinion......but I hate to give dogs strong poisons routinely.


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## RCTRIPLEFRESH5

DoglovingSenior said:


> The sugar cube is the live vaccine - the injection is not


so they now give injections? i thought the point of the cube was that it was more tolerable for kids....but i guess in the end it doesn;t matter, as kids hate the doctors anyway,

i still dont see why polio would rise


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## magicre

RCTRIPLEFRESH5 said:


> so they now give injections? i thought the point of the cube was that it was more tolerable for kids....but i guess in the end it doesn;t matter, as kids hate the doctors anyway,
> 
> i still dont see why polio would rise


if you have small sections of a country who do not vaccinate against polio and small pox for generations....then the possibility of infection rises. in these communities, seeing polio and small pox cases and measles cases is not high enough to call it epidemic so vaccines have not been brought back.

there are some vaccines that i consider overkill for children, such as chicken pox. so few ever have complications, vaccinations to me are not necessary...

if one is working in a medical institution, then hepatitis is not a bad idea to vaccinate against..

i think there are diseases that are better off eradicated....and vaccinations would help...but i am leary about the combinations..and i think they are wrong to combine three in one vaccines...such as measles/mumps/rubella or the diptheria/pertussis/tetanus.

whilst it has finally been proven that autism is not a result of these combinations....there are other problems that occur because of these combinations which don't have to happen.

however, mumps in an adult can kill....or render a man sterile...so there's one that people might want to consider...

with dogs....corona to me is a waste of time, but i think parvo is a good idea,....what bothers me is the five in one vaccinations...they could interact in ways we haven't even discovered yet. and it's wrong.

one vaccination at a time for the most important vaccinations...but not these all in ones...

and if you don't believe in vaccinations, then people should not condemn.


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## Caty M

magicre said:


> and if you don't believe in vaccinations, then people should not condemn.


Not on DFC, but other forums, I have had people attack me for not vaccinating. Even my unvaccinated sheltie who shows high titers against distemper and parvovirus. There is not 'one way' to raise a dog.


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## Unosmom

I only do rabies because its required every 3 years. I havent had issues with fleas, but when Uno gets the itchies, I rub some d-earth on him and that usually takes care of the problem. Whenever we go on hikes, I use an herbal horse spray to keep gnats and mosquitoes off him. HW prevention, yes, but only during warm months.


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## magicre

what i don't understand is why rabies has to be continued.....every three years in some states, every year in some states, one would think the dog is immune...

i neither condemn those how vaccinate nor those who don't....nor do i condemn boarding places or daycares that want vaccinated dogs vs. the ones that don't require them or they just want titres....

all i ask is that people do their research and not just follow blindly.


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## Liz

This vaccination question obviously is a loaded one. Like Re said condeming those who don't do exactly as you do is ridiculous. I do not vaccinate except for rabies now and I hope to titre or get a waiver for that. That said, when I place a puppy if the family is more comfortable with some vaccinations I just ask that they become more educated and vaccinate in single vaccines. As for my children, I studied extensively. We home school though they are very socialized through our church and are in contact with over 150 kids weekly through our bus inistry and also visit weekly. They have many friends and activities that have never been hampered by not being vacccinated. I respect the choices of others and ask for the same courtesy in return. If askes I will gladly share information that I have found helpful in my decision making.


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## Jynical

Holy crow, I love this board. I love that people can come together and have a mature, informative discourse on a topic without it dissolving into drama. 

Roscoe has had some vaccinations... I really want to do more research into it... the cats haven't been vaccinated or anything, but because Roscoe has done more where people "require" her to have XYZ, she's had more done to her. My last dog had a reaction to a shot and wound up with a huge abscess on his side... no fun. 

We didn't vax the kiddo until she started 2nd grade, we had delayed all and refused some and then were strong-armed into getting her "caught up". It is what it is. I believe in informed consent and have a huge issue with painting every being (human or animal) with the same brush as far as what they need or don't need. Some animals (and people) do have a natural immunity for various reasons. Some don't.


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## SilverBeat

I plan to only do rabies from here on out. Wallaby has had DHPP and Lepto, which I wouldn't have gotten either had I done a little research. He is due for rabies next month, I plan on getting the 3-year vacc.

For fleas and ticks I give Apple Cider Vinegar [there are several threads about this] and for heartworm I give Interceptor every 45 days. I am not comfortable putting poison in my dog though and I wish I didn't have to.


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## magicre

RCTRIPLEFRESH5 said:


> so they now give injections? i thought the point of the cube was that it was more tolerable for kids....but i guess in the end it doesn;t matter, as kids hate the doctors anyway,
> 
> i still dont see why polio would rise


to my knowledge, polio vaccination and smallpox vaccination are no longer given.

the live attenuated virus in a sugar cube caused problems. some kids died, some came down with polio......the injection did not cause such problems....but the world health organisation pronounced polio and small pox to be eradicated many years ago.

the problem is it isn't eradicated and there are small pockets found all over the world...just not enough for a wide spread epidemic......


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## meggels

I plan to only give Abbie rabies every three years. She does spend a significant amount of time outside, up at the farm, in the woods, etc.

But Murphy had this reaction to rabies over a year ago:



















He was supposed to get his rabies again in March but I don't plan on doing it. He's rarely outside, he's very much an inside dog, so I don't think there's much risk for him. 

I don't use any flea/tick stuff on him and am considering taking him off of the interceptor. I will need to do some serious research on it before I decide though.


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## Porphyria

I am definitely pro-vaccine. I think dogs are over vaccinated and yearly vaccines are definitely not necessary. My dog had his puppy vaccinations up to one year of age; the vet has them down as "three year vaccines," and in about 2.5 years, when they "expire," I will have the vet run titers to check antibody levels and see if he needs any additional immunity boost. If not, I'll continue checking his antibody levels with titers every year. I'm following a limited vaccine plan, but I definitely think that dogs should have the initial vaccines. 

Normally when I have a differing opinion on a "hot button" issue like this, I have a "live and let live" mentality; I'm all for a good debate, but ultimately I believe in letting people raise their pets (and kids) how they want, even if it is different from how I raise (or would raise) mine. But when it comes to vaccines I have a hard time being open minded because it is a public health issue. The more unvaccinated dogs (or children) there are out there, the greater the risk to the overall population since herd immunity has a positive correlation with the percentage of individuals vaccinated. 

I understand some of the concerns people have about vaccines, but a lot of the information that comes from adament anti-vaccine advocates (and I'm speaking more about human vaccines than animal ones now) is blatantly false, and without any scientific basis. I am a very strong believer in empiricism and so many arguments from the vocal anti-vax movement are completely unfounded and antiscientific. Now I'm not saying _every_ concern people have with vaccines is unfounded. Certainly people do sometimes have bad reactions, and that is a very legitimate concern. But when people start claiming links to autism and other conditions, I just can't take them seriously anymore.


As far as fleas/tics/mosquitos go, I use Interceptor and Frontline. But I just discovered a bunch of fleas on Zephyr today! So I'm not sure the Frontline is really working for him....


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## mel2mdl

magicre said:


> ....there are some that were eradicated like pertussis, that i think children should have. it's not a pretty sickness.


Haven't read the whole thing, but pertussis is still around (whooping cough). I had an 8th grader out of school for 2 weeks with this two years ago - she had been in and out for few weeks before diagnosed. She was vaccinated, or it would have been worse! The girl who spread it through the cheer group was not and it was.


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## magicre

mel2mdl said:


> Haven't read the whole thing, but pertussis is still around (whooping cough). I had an 8th grader out of school for 2 weeks with this two years ago - she had been in and out for few weeks before diagnosed. She was vaccinated, or it would have been worse! The girl who spread it through the cheer group was not and it was.


vaccines are no guarantee the person will never get the disease.....pertussis was one that almost went away, until the movement against vaccines started.....especially when that doctor from england put out the false info about vaccinations and autism.....

whilst i still can't figure out why there are so many autistic children....this guy truly gave vaccinations a bad name for all of the wrong reasons.


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## mel2mdl

Porphyria - I agree with you. As a public school teacher, I do get frustrated with the vaccine thing. I understand that some people don't want their kiddos to have a vaccine, but that relies on other people vaccinating their children so the diseases don't return in force. For example, my student with whooping cough. One of the girls in her cheer camp was homeschooled and NOT vaccinated. She contracted pertussis - she ended up in the hospital and very, very ill. I don't know her personally, so I don't know if she had brain damage, but it is likely. My student contracted this as well. She was in and out of school.  Finally, she was diagnosed and treated, but missed 2 weeks of school. Since she had residual immunity from vaccinations, she was not hospitalized and did not get terribly sick - they just didn't want it to spread. There is a risk of not vaccinating to the general population, and I am against that with people.

I get my flu shot every year (as a type I diabetic, can't afford to get flu); I've had all my vaccinations; I get my tetanus every 7 years; and I had my MMR redone when I was 20 and there was an outbreak. My son has had the chicken pox vaccine, as well as all others. My mom took out a loan to get my older siblings vaccinated against polio when it first became available. My mother has postherpatic neuralgia from shingles and is on codiene/morphine - so I will get that shot when I can. The disease is usually worse than the vaccine and the risk of getting the diseases are higher than the risk of having complications from the vaccine - especially in an area like Dallas, with a high number of people from other countries.


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## Eswmom

I have five daughters. Two live with autism. One was vaccinated as an infant as suggested by physician, the other I delayed her vaccinations and low and behold. The doc England did a huge mis service to parents around the world. I don't know exactly why my daughters live with autism however they are perfect as g-d created them. I do know I feel any had challenges such as autism, sensory disorders etc ears ago, centuries ago, people were misdiagnosed, given incorrect info and institutionalized rather than embraced for the special people they are. Matzah and lulu are being raised as psychiatric service dogs for our daughter. Because of her autism we are surrounded by fur, love and learning new things such as feeding raw. We are blessed. Thanks


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## RCTRIPLEFRESH5

Eswmom said:


> I have five daughters. Two live with autism. One was vaccinated as an infant as suggested by physician, the other I delayed her vaccinations and low and behold. The doc England did a huge mis service to parents around the world. I don't know exactly why my daughters live with autism however they are perfect as g-d created them. I do know I feel any had challenges such as autism, sensory disorders etc ears ago, centuries ago, people were misdiagnosed, given incorrect info and institutionalized rather than embraced for the special people they are. Matzah and lulu are being raised as psychiatric service dogs for our daughter. Because of her autism we are surrounded by fur, love and learning new things such as feeding raw. We are blessed. Thanks


even though i agree that many people live with autism today...it is really the new fad disorder. the same people being told they have autism today, were told they had ADHD in the 90s. Your daughters might be free of autism in ten years and be told they have borderline personality lol.
i think the people who improve on methyl b12 therapy don;t really have autism...i dont think curing autism is that simple.


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## RCTRIPLEFRESH5

meggels said:


> I plan to only give Abbie rabies every three years. She does spend a significant amount of time outside, up at the farm, in the woods, etc.
> 
> But Murphy had this reaction to rabies over a year ago:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> He was supposed to get his rabies again in March but I don't plan on doing it. He's rarely outside, he's very much an inside dog, so I don't think there's much risk for him.
> 
> I don't use any flea/tick stuff on him and am considering taking him off of the interceptor. I will need to do some serious research on it before I decide though.


excuse my ignorance, but what am looking at in the pic? The area around his eyes turned pink right?


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## Scarlett_O'

meggels said:


> I plan to only give Abbie rabies every three years. She does spend a significant amount of time outside, up at the farm, in the woods, etc.
> 
> But Murphy had this reaction to rabies over a year ago:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> He was supposed to get his rabies again in March but I don't plan on doing it. He's rarely outside, he's very much an inside dog, so I don't think there's much risk for him.
> 
> I don't use any flea/tick stuff on him and am considering taking him off of the interceptor. I will need to do some serious research on it before I decide though.


POOR BABY!!!:frown:

The same thing happened to Brody last year...he will also NOT be getting his for at least another year!!!


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## SilverBeat

RC- Murph had a lot of hair loss it looks like [and probably skin sensitivity].


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## RawFedDogs

meggels said:


> I plan to only give Abbie rabies every three years. She does spend a significant amount of time outside, up at the farm, in the woods, etc.


Thats a mindset of a lot of people because they tend to forget that once your dog has a rabies shot, its good for a long time, probably for life. My dogs are in the woods every day and have encounters with wild animals often. I don't worry about rabies because they were vaccinated way back when. How often your dogs are exposed or have a potential of exposure has nothing to do with whether or not they need another vaccination. If they've been vaccinated, they are immune.


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## Caty M

I disagree somewhat about the public health thing. Bish is unvaccinated yet has high titers in both parvo and distemper- just as immune as your average vaccinated pup. He was symtomatic to neither. He is not a 'public health risk'. 

The scientific thing goes both ways- yes there is uninformed accusations and misinformations on both sides. I tend to believe nature is best, not a company that stands to gain financially's scientific studies. They can be set up and worded in ways that are confusing. The Purina life stages and lifespan study is a good example. So is the tobacco industry..

Over a period of 40-some years, the tobacco industry spent over $220 million funding over 1,500 scientific studies, yet not a single one of these studies could find a relationship between tobacco and lung cancer, heart disease, etc.

So while there is no question that vaccines do in fact prevent disease in the majority of animals, I think that the published side effects are more common than one might think and a lot of unattributed problems like arthritis (an autoimmune disorder) are being caused by these 'scientific diets' and vaccines.

Eg, a childhood dog of mine developed epilepsy. He had no history of seizures and had his first one HOURS after his first rabies vaccination. He was a year old.

The vet said there was definitely no connection. :shocked:

I tend to think most vets think of vaccines the way they do Science Diet.. perfect and can do no wrong.


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## meggels

SilverBeat said:


> RC- Murph had a lot of hair loss it looks like [and probably skin sensitivity].


Do you mean me lol? 


RawFed- I also worry that she's going to have issues if she ever bites someone out of fear. Granted, she's done pretty well the past two years of her life and never nipped at anyone or anything, but if she were to bite someone and didn't have her rabies shot, wouldn't that raise many issues? 

I haven't registered either of them with the town lol. I feel like a bad dog owner.


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## magicre

Caty M said:


> I tend to think most vets think of vaccines the way they do Science Diet.. perfect and can do no wrong.


well said. i especially like the reference to tobacco companies and lung cancer....there has to be a genetic predisposition to get lung cancer, although smoking can lead to copd and other smoking related problems...

same goes for vaccines...i said it above and i still believe that vaccines do not always prevent disease...they might help if a person gets the disease......in spite of having received a vaccine...so the disease might not be as severe...

i do believe dogs should be vaccinated against rabies....but once, not every three years...and maybe a booster in ten years...but titre first, then decide.


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## Caty M

I have had two grandparents die of lung cancer and one die of COPD.. the one that didn't smoke lived the longest so I took that as a sign to never start LOL.. but scientific studies can be very misleading. Even things like patient choosing can have a huge effect on the outcomes, and you can bet that the companies know this. 

And to me it isn't right for companies like Merck who manufacture the vaccines to really push yearly vaccines when they obviously know full well that vaccination has side effects and yearly vaccination is no more effective than once or once every seven years or more.


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## CorgiPaws

I've officially decided. 
I will NOT vaccinate my children. Period.


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## cprcheetah

I have worked for a Vet (my father) for over 20+ years, I had ALWAYS been a huge promoter of annual vaccines, year round monthly heartworm, blah blah blah....then I started doing research and met a local friend on the Raw Feeding group who has Rotties and one literally went nuts after her Rabies shot, through lots and lots of research. I saw the difference in her Rottie after she treated her homeopathically for Vaccinosis. I couldn't believe it. Zoey my chihuahua hasn't had vaccines for 3+ years because of her weakened immune system (epilepsy, hydrocephalus, allergies) among other things. She does have the titers done and has levels in the normal range. Ziva has only had her 2 puppy shots because by that time I had made the decision that I was not going to vaccinate any of my animals again, I would have preferred for her to have none, but she had them before I rescued her. She has inherited "vaccinosis" and I am currently working with a homeopath to 'detox' her and treat her for that, I have done so with Shellie my neurotic/nutty Golden Retriever, and the difference in her is amazing. Yes she still has some issues but the difference is like night and day, my husband can actually tolerate her now LOL. It is a personal decision, and I for one, will not vaccinate my animals nor my children (when I have them) ever again. Vaccines are a foreign substance and I have seen the long term effects of them, as well as reactions etc in my own animals. I have a cat who has Herpes Conjunctivitis, EVERY year after her annual vaccines she would have a flare up and she is the WORST patient to treat, and putting Virus ointment in her eyes 5x a day for 2 weeks is NOT cup of tea. So she hasn't been vaccinated for 3 years now, and guess what? She has had ZERO flare ups in that time. She was having flareups every few months. She also has Chronic Interstital Cystitis, and the longer she goes unvaccinated the fewer outbreaks of that (peeing on my bed/clothes etc) when her bladder hurts.


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## whiteleo

Puppypaws. I had asked this in the appropriate thread but you didn't see it. With the vaccinations, do you not require bordatella or current vaccinations for dogs that come to your daycare? I'm very curious because of your stance on your own dogs.


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## CorgiPaws

whiteleo said:


> Puppypaws. I had asked this in the appropriate thread but you didn't see it. With the vaccinations, do you not require bordatella or current vaccinations for dogs that come to your daycare? I'm very curious because of your stance on your own dogs.


Oops, sorry, I did miss when you asked the first time, I only briefly skimmed the thread. 


We require up to date vaccines for DHPP, Rabies, and Bordetella. 
BUT, we now have a waiver on bordetella, due to its ineffectiveness, and the amount of people who don't like to give it. (this is a new policy)
We also accept titers in place of vaccines. (this has always been the case)


Daycares "require" vaccines for a few reasons, one is to "protect" the dogs attending. But, the main reasons are because most people seem to think that an unvaccinated dog means it poses some huge risk to society, so it's a business move. I personally think this is absolute hogwash. The MAIN reason most places require them is because despite an extensive contract there are a lot of idiots in the world that think they can sue a boarding facility if their dog contracts anything- even something as minor as kennel cough, while in their care. It's happened before, and if any dogs in the facility are found to be unvaccinated, the suing party can win based on "lack of due diligence to prevent illness or disease." It is a legal matter for daycares. 
I personally am not operating my business based on this fear anymore, because I feel it is not what is best for the animals in our care. It is also included in our contract, that the owner recognizes their pet may be in contact with unvaccinated animals, and that they recognize that "risk."

These are recent changes, and I've noticed business increase since the change. In fact, we did not lose a single person when we informed all our regular and semi regular customers of the change in policy. Many were even relieved to not have to vaccinate anymore, and I was surprised how many of them did not like continual vaccinations but did them simply to be able to do daycare and boarding. 

I will be honest and admit that before the company policy changed, I did in fact bring my dogs with "expired" vaccines to work with me. I think you'd be surprised how many daycare owners do the same thing.


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## whiteleo

I certainly wish more day cares would be more lax on their policies............I've gotten to the point of forging documents, oops did I say that!


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## cprcheetah

RCTRIPLEFRESH5 said:


> excuse my ignorance, but what am looking at in the pic? The area around his eyes turned pink right?


His face is swollen, you can see it in the pictures. You can see the puffiness/swelling around his eyes & muzzle (that's why he looks like he's got no hair there) I have actually seen dogs DIE from having vaccines and having an anaphylactic reaction to them. They can actually get enough swelling from a Vaccine reaction that it will cut off their air supply so they can't breath if it's not taken care of. Reactions can be quite serious.


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## CorgiPaws

whiteleo said:


> I certainly wish more day cares would be more lax on their policies............I've gotten to the point of forging documents, oops did I say that!


I do, too. Unfortunately the fear of being sued tends to weigh heavily in decision making in business. 
As for forging documents: been there, done that. LOL.


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## Scarlett_O'

cprcheetah said:


> His face is swollen, you can see it in the pictures. You can see the puffiness/swelling around his eyes & muzzle (that's why he looks like he's got no hair there) I have actually seen dogs DIE from having vaccines and having an anaphylactic reaction to them. They can actually get enough swelling from a Vaccine reaction that it will cut off their air supply so they can't breath if it's not taken care of. Reactions can be quite serious.


I wish I had taken a picture of Brody when he had his reaction...but my "freaked out Mommi" moment came and I didnt think of it! But you could NOT see his eyes at all!! His nose "fold" was nearly covering his whole nose...and Daddy had to sit with him and have a finger in his SUPER swollen mouth just to get him to breath!! It was SOOOOOO scary!!!!


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## Tobi

We do a very limited vaccine regimen puppy shots and that's it, we got one rabies and that will be the last he ever has. same thing goes with kids, i wouldn't get a kid vaccinated if i was to have one, the two my gf has they were vaccinated as babies and that was it


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## meggels

cprcheetah said:


> His face is swollen, you can see it in the pictures. You can see the puffiness/swelling around his eyes & muzzle (that's why he looks like he's got no hair there) I have actually seen dogs DIE from having vaccines and having an anaphylactic reaction to them. They can actually get enough swelling from a Vaccine reaction that it will cut off their air supply so they can't breath if it's not taken care of. Reactions can be quite serious.


Oh I missed RC's original question, oops lol.

Yes, I believe his was a bit more serious too, this was an after picture (I wanna say day after). But yeah, I did not have him when this happened, he was still with my friend. But it was serious enough I guess that she had her vet write a letter saying he should never get it again.


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## DoglovingSenior

As a resident of Chatham County GA, Rabies vacs are REQUIRED by Law every year. What my vet & I truly do not like is that the shot given is a 3 year shot! I had been rather lax until a "sick" raccoon got in my yard & was chased by my dogs. I, of course called Animal Control as the Raccoon was lying outside of one of my gates (still surrounded by fencing) making these terrible sounds. I could not take a chance & not call them, not only because of my animals but because of others & children.

I took both to the vet early next AM one was just outside of the 1 yr by a few months the other by many months. She vaccinated both <sigh>. Animal Control did not have them quarantined. The tests came back that the animal was sick but it was NOT rabies. So now I stick to the once a year and try to protect their systems as much as possible. I had the female put down in 12/07 CA @ 11 yrs, the male is still with me @12 1/2. I just will not take the chance of having any of them bitten-quarantined or whatever again.


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## CavePaws

Well, our two little ones Paris and Preston are not "up to date" on their rabies. They had the 1 year shot, over a year ago, and that was pretty much the last shot I will ever give them. Indi got the 1 yr rabies about 6 months ago (at least) and that is the last shot she will ever receive if I have any control over it. My dogs get their puppy shots and their rabies and I'm pretty much done with shots there.


As far as vaccines for humans...While some are frivolous, others can save a life. I'd reallllly encourage people to look in to the disease and the risk factors before deciding to forgo a particular shot for their kids. Like the HPV shot. It can save you from HPV type 16 and 18 some of the most prevalent and dangerous, but if it doesn't vaccinate for types 31 and 45 which may be less prevalent but still quite dangerous you could be SOL and the consequences can be pretty bad if you contract it...Just sayin'. Kinda like a crap shoot...but by getting one vaccine at least you are putting the odds a little more in your favor if you do contract the disease.


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## RawFedDogs

DoglovingSenior said:


> I took both to the vet early next AM one was just outside of the 1 yr by a few months the other by many months. She vaccinated both <sigh>. Animal Control did not have them quarantined. The tests came back that the animal was sick but it was NOT rabies. So now I stick to the once a year and try to protect their systems as much as possible.


You are not protecting them more by giving more shots. A dog is either immune or he's not and piling up shots on top of each other is not causing them to be more immune and is detrimental to the dog's immune system. Rabies shots cause more physical, mental, and behavioral problems in dogs than any of the other vaccines. 

Every 3 years is more than satisfactory and there is nothing built into the bottle of vaccine that will cause it to stop working after 3 years and a day. There has never been any tests that show that dogs ever loose their immunity to rabies once they have the shot. There IS evidence that the vaccine is 100% effective after 7.5 years. 10 year tests are underway right now as we speak.


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## chowder

I vaccinate my dogs for rabies every 3 years NOT to protect them from rabies, but to protect them from being taken from me and being quarantined. In this state we have so many cases of rabies that if your dog is exposed at all (not bitten, but just come within a few feet of a rabid animal) they will quarantine it for 6 months at your expense at a controlled facility. We just had a women fight to have her dog released to her for the final 2 months because it's health was going downhill after being kept in a cage for 4 months. She had to take it to court and did finally win the case. Her dog only barked at a rabid **** under her deck. In that case her dog was only 30 days over due for it's 3 year rabies vaccine. 

To me it's just not worth the risk of them taking my dogs.


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## xellil

chowder said:


> I vaccinate my dogs for rabies every 3 years NOT to protect them from rabies, but to protect them from being taken from me and being quarantined.


I agree - if the law requires it, I will get it. None of my dogs have had reactions to a rabies vaccine. We have raccoons, skunks, and possums running around my house. I don't know how long they quarantine dogs here, but I know they quarantine them. My vet also told me the city requires a rabies shot every year, but I need to check that.

You guys have made me think alot about the other ones. I got the kennel cough because we go to the dog park, but I have gotten shots just because the vet told me to, and they give them all at one time, on the same day. And that DHPP, it's all the same shot.


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## whiteleo

There are those of us that do things that come under scrutiny with the humane society, one is having dogs that people feel are dangerous, this is why I have to keep up on my license's for the dogs and my rabies shots as they are required by law here where I live.


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## schtuffy

Louis was bombarded with vaccines as a puppy when I took him to Banfield, to the point where he started to have bad reactions to them...especially the combo vaccines. Rabies is required in MD by law, but only every 3 years. _However_, many clinics slap on a new expiration date of only 1 year for rabies, forcing you to vaccinate your pet more frequently. I've since switched him to a holistic vet who also supports raw. Unfortunately he had to get his rabies shot again because there was no way around the 1 year expiration on his certificate, but from now on my new vet will only do the minimal requirement of once every 3 years as dictated by state law. Everything else Louis will just go in for yearly bloodwork to get a titer done.

Heartworm is only really necessary in my area between the months of July-October, and that's if your dog spends a considerable time outdoors. I still don't know how I feel about not giving heartworm pills altogether, so as of right now Louis will get 3 pills a year, spaced about 45-60 days apart starting July 15th - October 15th per my vet's recommendation. I was thinking about cutting back even more, and just getting his heartworm test done at the end of summer. We'll see.

Flea ointments I don't do at all. I don't know, I always figured I'd comb through his fur when we come inside...plus it's so white that I can see every bug that lands on him. If and when he does get fleas, I will treat it then.

Now, human vaccines I will support. The benefits outweigh the risks, and herd immunity can only protect to a certain extent. That's just my view, coming from a biology background and working in the medical/pharmaceutical industry. 

For dogs and humans, I do not believe in over vaccination...but I do think vaccination is necessary.


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## CorgiPaws

CavePaws said:


> Well, our two little ones Paris and Preston are not "up to date" on their rabies. They had the 1 year shot, over a year ago, and that was pretty much the last shot I will ever give them. Indi got the 1 yr rabies about 6 months ago (at least) and that is the last shot she will ever receive if I have any control over it. My dogs get their puppy shots and their rabies and I'm pretty much done with shots there.
> 
> 
> As far as vaccines for humans...While some are frivolous, others can save a life. I'd reallllly encourage people to look in to the disease and the risk factors before deciding to forgo a particular shot for their kids. Like the HPV shot. It can save you from HPV type 16 and 18 some of the most prevalent and dangerous, but if it doesn't vaccinate for types 31 and 45 which may be less prevalent but still quite dangerous you could be SOL and the consequences can be pretty bad if you contract it...Just sayin'. Kinda like a crap shoot...but by getting one vaccine at least you are putting the odds a little more in your favor if you do contract the disease.


The HPV shot has actually killed A LOT of teens. 
It's also caused many pregnancies to spontaneously abort.
Some shots I've been on the fence on, this is one I would never even consider for myself, or any kids I may have.


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## meggels

Anyone have any good links on heartworm meds and the effects?


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## CavePaws

PuppyPaws said:


> The HPV shot has actually killed A LOT of teens.
> It's also caused many pregnancies to spontaneously abort.
> Some shots I've been on the fence on, this is one I would never even consider for myself, or any kids I may have.


I'm glad I got the Gardasil shot. I had no side effects. You'll need to have a really long straight forward talk with your kid about the dangers of being sexually active. I'm not saying this to offend you or anything, I'm just saying, kids do really dumb things sometimes and the consequences can be life changing. Maybe by the time your child is old enough to be having sex we will have a "cure"...Right now we don't and HPV can cause women to NEVER be able to have children. It can cause very severe cervical cancer which needs removal, if it continues to return then you may need a hysterectomy - hence what I say, no babies. Lots of very young women out there who will have no chance of ever having a child because their cervix and uterus were completely removed.

edit: And I don't know, just a thought, but maybe you shouldn't be getting the HPV shot while pregnant? I would think being vaccinated for things while pregnant would be a big no no...Especially things that have to do with your reproductive system. :/


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## DoglovingSenior

chowder said:


> but to protect them from being taken from me and being quarantined. if your dog is exposed at all (not bitten, but just come within a few feet of a rabid animal) they will quarantine it for 6 months at your expense at a controlled facility. We just had a women fight to have her dog released to her for the final 2 months because it's health was going downhill after being kept in a cage for 4 months. She had to take it to court and did finally win the case. Her dog only barked at a rabid **** under her deck. In that case her dog was only 30 days over due for it's 3 year rabies vaccine.
> 
> To me it's just not worth the risk of them taking my dogs.


This is also my reason-GA does NOT play around-the thought of one of my old guys being put in a cage for months. I just can't stand the thought.......


----------



## DoglovingSenior

CavePaws said:


> As far as vaccines for humans...While some are frivolous, others can save a life. I'd reallllly encourage people to look in to the disease and the risk factors before deciding to forgo a particular shot for their kids. Like the HPV shot. It can save you from HPV type 16 and 18 some of the most prevalent and dangerous, but if it doesn't vaccinate for types 31 and 45 which may be less prevalent but still quite dangerous you could be SOL and the consequences can be pretty bad if you contract it...Just sayin'. Kinda like a crap shoot...but by getting one vaccine at least you are putting the odds a little more in your favor if you do contract the disease.


I had a long talk with my gynecologist about HPV as this was not a problem of my generation. She informed me that it is *now*! Wow it's estimated that 90% of the population has this std at some time or other. What was her comment "men get genital warts-women get cancer" not a fair trade off but that's how it is. Of course this is a slight exaggeration. Most people do not even know that they have it - unless the woman's pap smear reveals pre-cancerous cells. One does not have to be promiscuous to get it either. She said that she now recommends all of her patients with a uterus to get the shots as it may offer some protection . I *think* she said that the guidelines now extend to the 30's. Unless men have the genital warts, they don't know that they have it. Scarey-I feel for my "grandchilds" generation. She told me that only a few unconfirmed deaths had been associated with the vaccine-as opposed to thousands with cervical or vaginal cancer. It is now being recommended that men take the vaccine also.


----------



## CorgiPaws

CavePaws said:


> I'm glad I got the Gardasil shot. I had no side effects. You'll need to have a really long straight forward talk with your kid about the dangers of being sexually active. I'm not saying this to offend you or anything, I'm just saying, kids do really dumb things sometimes and the consequences can be life changing. Maybe by the time your child is old enough to be having sex we will have a "cure"...Right now we don't and HPV can cause women to NEVER be able to have children. It can cause very severe cervical cancer which needs removal, if it continues to return then you may need a hysterectomy - hence what I say, no babies. Lots of very young women out there who will have no chance of ever having a child because their cervix and uterus were completely removed.
> 
> edit: And I don't know, just a thought, but maybe you shouldn't be getting the HPV shot while pregnant? I would think being vaccinated for things while pregnant would be a big no no...Especially things that have to do with your reproductive system. :/


I understand all of that. 
Still not sold on it. 
I was a stupid teen. I did a lot of really really dumb things back in the day. Unprotected sex was one of them- I was one of the lucky ones, and I don't take that for granted. 
A lot of things can cause women to NEVER be able to have children. That trusty little pill no one thinks twice about. The Depo-Provera shot (I personally have been OFF of that shot for over two years, and remain infertile while previously had no problem and conceived once. When I say infertile- I mean as infertile as infertile can be without having organs removed.) has incredibly long-lasting effects, possibly permanent though studies are lacking at the time. 
I think I'd sooner educate my children, because of the things that I have experienced, it seems the more toxins and crap we put in our bodies, the more problems we seem to have.

My first OBGYN appointment addressing infertility:
Doc: Have you been on birth control?
Me: Yes, but not for 2 years. 
Doc: Let me guess, the shot?
Me: Yeah, how'd you know. 
Doc: Half of my patients formerly regular before birth control and now experiencing annovulation are former Depo recipients. I'm not sure why women get that shot. 
Me: I wish I had known at 18.


----------



## CavePaws

Yes, there are tons of things that can cause women to become barren. I'm currently on the Depo-Provera shot, hopefully when I'm off of it I won't be infertile and in all honesty I don't think I will be as it has trouble enough doing what it is "supposed" to do. Education is necessary, I'm not saying anyone should skip it. Education does not mean your child is immune to something, however. It also doesn't mean they won't go to a party with some friends, get wasted, have unprotected sex, end up with HPV, a year down the road they find out, another year down the road they're having to have part of their cervix removed.

Education is great. It just doesn't cut it in my opinion on this one...Not when one shot can prevent two types of a _cancer _causing disease. 

I agree, the more chemicals we put into our body the more problems we may develop. On the other side of it, certain chemicals might keep you from an end you don't want to meet. Pick and choose is my personal opinion and when a disease is prevalent in 50% of our nations sexually active pop...Well, I'd opt to get that particular shot for my kid. Glad my mother opted to have me get it.


----------



## CorgiPaws

CavePaws said:


> Education is great. It just doesn't cut it in my opinion on this one...Not when one shot can prevent two types of a _cancer _causing disease.


When that same shot can also kill you- I will take my chances. I simply can not justify pumping MORE toxins into someone's body- when a condom would do the same job- no side-effects. 
I don't mean to be so aggressive, but I have (had) a friend who actually passed away after having this particular shot. Was perfectly 100% fine, and by the evening of getting it was having seizures. 
It's a subject that is so near and dear. I suppose that's why my stance on it is so strong. Shots are not 100% effective. if they were- I'd probably have a less set-in-stone opinion on it. The HPV vaccine, H1N1, and flu shots are the only ones I am adamantly AGAINST. Others, I will simply opt out of for myself and my family, but I wouldn't say I'm overly passionate about them.


----------



## meggels

Yeah I've heard a lot of stuff from doctors of mine to NOT use the shot. I did it for one month and it pretty much made me sweat an ocean for that whole month.

I have endometreosis and poly-cystic ovary syndrome. I'm on seasonique now and it's okay.


----------



## CavePaws

This subject is really near and dear to me as well, I understand your passion on it. I haven't known anyone effected by the shot the way you have. But, I've known several people who have had HPV, developed cervical cancer, and two in my family who have actually had to have a hysterectomy because of HPV caused cancer. For some people the risk is probably far worse than others that HPV will cause cancer. For me the risk of me developing cancer from that particular disease is really really high and I'd rather just get the shot and hopefully be done with those two types - as I said, still does not protect me from the other types not vaccinated for (yet). In any case, condoms can break, and kids can be dumb and skip putting a condom on without a second thought when they aren't in their "right" "educated" mind.

I actually haven't had any other vaccines in god knows how long. I don't get the flu vaccines, those I honestly think are frivolous.


----------



## CorgiPaws

I've thought about this all day. 
I decided that perhaps, there is SOME merit in giving this shot to teens. I personally won't get it or give it to my kids, but I can see how it could save lives (though it ALSO costs lives, I think it may save more than it takes) and that teens can be incredibly irresponsible, even if they are educated. 

That being said, there ARE alternatives to this vaccine- such as condoms, regular testing, and being responsible about sex. I think that at some point, you totally lose the "I was 16 and stupid" excuse, and for an adult responsible for their own actions, I can't justify the vaccine. 
And I don't think many condoms bought and stored properly break. I imagine some do, but most people I know who have had condoms break keep them in wallets, purses, glove boxes, etc. I've never, in seven years of sexual activity, had a condom break. (Yeah, I know... I already told you I was one of those stupid teens!)

I just want to make it clear that I am not trying to judge anyone, as many would think it's irresponsible of me to not vaccinate, I think that many vaccines pose unnecessary risk. I don't think any more or less of anyone based on their decision to vaccinate or not, as long as people are EDUCATED about it. Two educated persons can have two different opinions. What I hate is ignorance, VERY LITTLE of which has been displayed in this thread, and none by any of the people I've responded to. :tongue: Just wanted to make sure that was clear.


----------



## magicre

PuppyPaws said:


> I've thought about this all day.
> I decided that perhaps, there is SOME merit in giving this shot to teens. I personally won't get it or give it to my kids, but I can see how it could save lives (though it ALSO costs lives, I think it may save more than it takes) and that teens can be incredibly irresponsible, even if they are educated.
> 
> That being said, there ARE alternatives to this vaccine- such as condoms, regular testing, and being responsible about sex. I think that at some point, you totally lose the "I was 16 and stupid" excuse, and for an adult responsible for their own actions, I can't justify the vaccine.
> And I don't think many condoms bought and stored properly break. I imagine some do, but most people I know who have had condoms break keep them in wallets, purses, glove boxes, etc. I've never, in seven years of sexual activity, had a condom break. (Yeah, I know... I already told you I was one of those stupid teens!)
> 
> I just want to make it clear that I am not trying to judge anyone, as many would think it's irresponsible of me to not vaccinate, I think that many vaccines pose unnecessary risk. I don't think any more or less of anyone based on their decision to vaccinate or not, as long as people are EDUCATED about it. Two educated persons can have two different opinions. What I hate is ignorance, VERY LITTLE of which has been displayed in this thread, and none by any of the people I've responded to. :tongue: Just wanted to make sure that was clear.


as someone in the field, i can tell you that we are inundated with information....if you think the CDC qualifies as a truthful and accurate body....then you would believe this particular vaccine has helped more than it has hurt. there are studies from duke university and emory and johns hopkins that are saying the same thing.

and yet. and yet. there are plenty of bodies who condemn this and every other vaccine.....

i won't give my opinion on whether children should or should not be vaccinated....i will say we've gone overboard....

but i do believe if only everyone could read the research that actually isn't in it for the money...because let's face it, just like pharmaceuticals for veterinary medicine you have the same self interest, greed, etc with human pharmaceuticals...

hard to separate the truth from the conspiracy.


----------



## CavePaws

I completely agree that people need to be responsible for their own actions! I also agree that at some point the "dumb teenager" excuse won't fly; but tons of people go through an "I'm invincible" stage where they don't take disease seriously. Any responsible adult who is not in a monogamous relationship and is sexually active should be using condoms. End of story. I was just joking around about condoms breaking, kind of hard to read sarcasm I guess on the internet. But...If you are using a condom, and it breaks, and you've gotten the vaccine then it won't matter nearly as much. All I'm saying is that condoms are not fail proof...Just like the vaccine is not fail proof and just like education is not fail proof. I think combined all of them could be a very powerful tool to stop a fairly innocent person from contracting cancer. No one deserves cancer.

edit: On that same note. No one deserves to die a premature death from vaccines, so I think it should be made MUCH more known that these things are causing multiple directly related deaths. I don't believe I was told of any of the severe risks before the shot was given to me! Which makes it really really scary to think about having an adverse reaction.


----------



## RCTRIPLEFRESH5

PuppyPaws said:


> When that same shot can also kill you- I will take my chances. I simply can not justify pumping MORE toxins into someone's body- when a condom would do the same job- no side-effects.
> I don't mean to be so aggressive, but I have (had) a friend who actually passed away after having this particular shot. Was perfectly 100% fine, and by the evening of getting it was having seizures.
> It's a subject that is so near and dear. I suppose that's why my stance on it is so strong. Shots are not 100% effective. if they were- I'd probably have a less set-in-stone opinion on it. The HPV vaccine, H1N1, and flu shots are the only ones I am adamantly AGAINST. Others, I will simply opt out of for myself and my family, but I wouldn't say I'm overly passionate about them.


im so glad i started this thread...i have now eliminated flea protection unless is see ticks or fleas on winston.
i will give interceptor every 45 days. today i gave it to him and after reading this thread felt i was killing him


i have a question though.
winston hasnt had his stool test yet9he has a history of whipworms, and although cleared in the past, we wanted to check up on it)..ive heard giving interceptor before fecal test is done can mess up the results??? i gave him interceptor today, will it mess up the stool results if ibring a stool in this week?


----------



## doggiedad

it seems like a lot of people were offended by my reply to this post. to those
of you that were offended, sorry. i don't think RCTRIPLEFRESHS5 was offended
and if you were, sorry.

vaccinating or not vaccinating your dog i'm on the fence with it. i'm also
on the fence about how often should you vaccinate and what should you
vaccinate for but i do follow the vaccination protocol with my animals. 
i think humans should be vaccinated. i don't want to catch anything
or spread anything.



RCTRIPLEFRESH5 said:


> i like to think i know a decent amount about dog food, and i have heard about the dangers of vaccines in humans, but what is everyone's opinions on vaccines for dogs?
> I saw in a thread that Scarlett O posted that she hadnt given her dog a rabies shot, and I figured rabies shots were something that were not even debatable!
> 
> is it fair to say people here also are against human vaccine





doggiedad said:


> it's not close to fair to ask if the forum
> members are against human vaccines. that's
> ludicrously thinking and borderline insulting
> that you would ask.
> 
> my dogs are fully vaccinated and so are my children.


----------



## magicre

doggiedad said:


> it seems like a lot of people were offended by my reply to this post. to those
> of you that were offended, sorry. i don't think RCTRIPLEFRESHS5 was offended
> and if you were, sorry.
> 
> vaccinating or not vaccinating your dog i'm on the fence with it. i'm also
> on the fence about how often should you vaccinate and what should you
> vaccinate for but i do follow the vaccination protocol with my animals.
> i think humans should be vaccinated. i don't want to catch anything
> or spread anything.


apology accepted... i think it's not what you said, but the way it was said and perceived by more than one person.

and then, the question arises...do you think all humans should be vaccinated for everything that is out on the market? like hepatitis which will benefit hospital workers and drug addicts?

or chicken pox, which as of this writing.....i don't know of many who ever died from having chicken pox. yes, it's inconvenient, but chicken pox is a herpes virus that lives inside of everyone anyway....why vaccinate...

meningoccal? yeah, i can see the merits of that...it's mostly fatal....especially for children...

there are so many now....and unfortunately, i believe one thing that scares the bejeebers out of many is they are an 'all in one'....nothing good ever came from an 'all in one'....anything...

if vaccines are given...then give them one at a time, two weeks apart...a month apart....but not all at once. 

we're not in the military. and btw, i think that's wrong too...those all in ones....basic training is six weeks. plenty of time to space things out.

but it's so much cheaper for pharmaceuticals and insurance companies....feh.


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## doggiedad

thanks magicre.


----------



## SerenityFL

I have thought long and hard about vaccines since last year and what I'm going to do with the hoodlums when they're "due" for their next round.

Because of where we live and all the wild critters, (skunks, racoons, porcupines, coyotes, etc.), AND because until he is fully trained, the boy is dog aggressive, I am going to get them their three year rabies vaccines. I do not want either or both of my hoodlums taken away, even if for quarantine, because I didn't think they needed a vaccine. I've had a dog before, I always got her the shots she was "supposed" to get each year and she was fine.

I want my hoodlums to be legal. I have to register them, they have to be tagged, I have to keep them up to date on their rabies. If they ever have to go to the vet, I don't want a double argument with raw and with vaccines. Like I said in a post some time back, I found a great vet who while may not push raw feeding, is not opposed to it. And they understand, as they were the ones who brought it up, that many people, apparently, are not in to doing all of these vaccinations for their pets. As long as I get the hoodlums their rabies, I should be good with that vet. And if anything happens with a critter or another dog, I should be ok.

As for humans...we got vaccinated for all kinds of stuff as kids and I distinctly remember the sugar cube with the red stuff in it. My favorite "shot".

I was also in the military and just like Chowder, you lined up and went through the shot gun gauntlet. Because we were going overseas, we had to go through three times, a shot in each arm with a gun and if you flinched...man...dudes...just don't flinch, ok? I didn't, the person right in front of me did...and I hate shots...so, yah, that was an experience I won't soon forget.

We also got the small pox shot if we didn't get it as kids, (I did not, it was no longer required and I was always a little egotistical with the fact that I didn't have that scar on my arm like other kids), so I ended up with that damn scar anyway...at least it's not as pronounced as it would have been had I gotten it when I was younger. And MAN it itched!!!!! And we got another one that was done on our wrist...but it wasn't a needle it was this little square thing with lots of tiny needles...I forget what that one was for.

Never had a shot for chicken pox and I never got it even though my two brothers did.

The point is, if you ever want to travel, overseas, with your kids, they'll probably need those shots.

I think diet and exercise have a LOT to do with building up a healthy immune system. If you let your kids eat a bunch of crap and drink pop, sit on their butts and play video games all day, you're going to have kids who get sick. If you have them eat healthy meals, (meaning not even a twinkie in their packed lunch like all the other kids...no! We got an orange instead!), and make them turn the t.v. off and go outside to play, you tend to have healthier children. I hardly ever get sick and even though I don't eat like I should now, I think my immune system and health was so well built up the first 20 years of my life that it has protected me even this much later.

And for fleas, I'll say this until I am blue in the face or until I see people stop using poison on their animals: Nematodes!!!!!!! FleaBusters is a company you can buy from that uses nematodes. NO poison! It's guaranteed for a year. It lasts longer than that, though. You don't have to worry about fleas or treating when you see fleas or combing for fleas...you won't see fleas. They are gone. The nematodes ate them. You can have Fleabusters come in and do this for you or you can buy the product and do it yourself. IT. WORKS! I wish someone out there who still uses poison would hear that.


----------



## schtuffy

I don't know a whole lot about nematodes, but I did know they ate fleas. And they are safe for humans and dogs? Are they different from round worms? Sorry for the stupid questions, I want to be prepared if a flea attack ever comes :wink:


----------



## Porphyria

Caty M said:


> I disagree somewhat about the public health thing. Bish is unvaccinated yet has high titers in both parvo and distemper- just as immune as your average vaccinated pup. He was symtomatic to neither. He is not a 'public health risk'.


You have run titers to determine immune response, but the majority of zero vax dog owners I have spoken to don't even bother to run titers. I agree that your dog isn't a risk for parvo or distemper, because you are confident he has immunity against these diseases. Most no vax owners I have talked to don't test their dogs' immune responses because they feel that they would choose not to vaccinate, even if their dog showed low immunity. These dogs are a potential risk, and the more of them there are, the greater the risk they pose. Just out of curiosity, if you had a dog whose titers showed low immunity against something like distemper, would you vaccinate?

Non immunized pets and people do pose a risk to public health. There are numerous cases throughout history in which fear of vaccines in a decent-sized group resulted in mass outbreaks of that disease. A few recent examples include a measles outbreak in the UK in the early 2000s , a measles outbreak in Nigeria in 2007, a pertussis endemic in Colorado in the mid-90s, and an increase in tetanus among American children in the 90s.

These examples are all in humans because there have been numerous anti-vaccine movements throughout history, many of which led to outbreaks and epidemics. The anti vaccine movement in dogs is relatively new, but I believe the risks are very similar. People (and dogs) for whom the vaccine is not effective, or those who are not healthy enough to be vaccinated or with sensitivities to vaccines, are put at risk by people who decide to opt out.



> The scientific thing goes both ways- yes there is uninformed accusations and misinformations on both sides. I tend to believe nature is best, not a company that stands to gain financially's scientific studies. They can be set up and worded in ways that are confusing. The Purina life stages and lifespan study is a good example. So is the tobacco industry..


Not everyone advocating vaccines is doing so out of a desire for profit. The drug companies are not the only ones testing the effectiveness and safety of vaccines. Every reputable health organization in the world advocates vaccination, and it's impossible to believe that they are all in the pockets of big pharm. This is probably more true for human vaccines than dogs, but there are plenty of people making money on the anti vaccine side of the argument (lawyers, public speakers, alternative medicine practitioners, etc.) as well. Nature is where these diseases come from in the first place, so I'll place my faith in vaccines that have been scientifically proven to prevent disease rather than nature. 



> Over a period of 40-some years, the tobacco industry spent over $220 million funding over 1,500 scientific studies, yet not a single one of these studies could find a relationship between tobacco and lung cancer, heart disease, etc.
> 
> So while there is no question that vaccines do in fact prevent disease in the majority of animals, I think that the published side effects are more common than one might think and a lot of unattributed problems like arthritis (an autoimmune disorder) are being caused by these 'scientific diets' and vaccines.
> 
> Eg, a childhood dog of mine developed epilepsy. He had no history of seizures and had his first one HOURS after his first rabies vaccination. He was a year old.
> 
> The vet said there was definitely no connection. :shocked:
> 
> I tend to think most vets think of vaccines the way they do Science Diet.. perfect and can do no wrong.


I also agree that we can't turn a blind eye to the risks of vaccination. Unfortunately many people and animals do suffer from adverse reactions to vaccines. This is why I definitely support a limited vaccine plan for pets. Separating the vaccines rather than giving those ""all-in-one" shots will also help reduce the chance of adverse reaction. But sadly even these precautions will not completely eliminate the risk of a reaction. It seems like no big deal to choose not to vaccinate for something like rabies because rabies is not prevalent in dogs (thanks to the rabies vaccine). But the more pet owners who opt out of immunization, the more we will see a rise in rabies cases in pets. I sympathize with people, my mother included, whose pets have had adverse reactions to vaccines. But I still think the big picture benefits outweigh the risks. And the risk of disease in animals who can't be vaccinated because they do have a sensitivity to the vaccines increases as more and more people choose not to vaccinate their pets. Of course if a pet has no real chance of coming into contact with other animals, then I totally understand not vaccinating. My cat was strictly an indoor cat, never came into contact with other cats, and lived with dogs who were vaccinated; we never had her vaccinated because she stood no risk. But for pets that do come into contact with other animals, be they wild animals or other dogs at the park, I think vaccination is the best way to prevent disease. My dog and I have visited places where I know people don't vaccinate their dogs, not because of concern for vaccine safety, but because the people "can't afford it." I can't deny, I was very nervous, even though my dog has been vaccinated.

Sure there are some crappy vets out there, but when it comes to things like vaccines and medicine I trust my vet, who has devoted years and years in order to help animals. Like I said, not all vets are good, but I don't think it's fair to paint them all with a broad brush. My vet does not sell Science Diet, and they only offer three-year vaccines. When I asked why, the tech told me evidence shows that pets don't need yearly vaccines, most kennels, groomers, etc. will accept three-year vaccines now, and the head vet in the practice didn't want pet owners spending money on unnecessary vaccines. Not all vets are only out to increase profit for themselves, Hills, and drug manufacturers.



PuppyPaws said:


> That being said, there ARE alternatives to this vaccine- such as condoms, regular testing, and being responsible about sex. I think that at some point, you totally lose the "I was 16 and stupid" excuse, and for an adult responsible for their own actions, I can't justify the vaccine.


Condom use doesn't necessarily prevent HPV: CDC - Condom Effectiveness - Male Latex Condoms and Sexually Transmitted Diseases (scroll down to "Genital Ulcer Disease and HPV infections). The scary thing about HPV is that people can think they're being safe, and really they're still vulnerable to the virus. This is why I did not hesitate to get the vaccine, and why I would have my children (if I had any) vaccinated.



schtuffy said:


> I don't know a whole lot about nematodes, but I did know they ate fleas. And they are safe for humans and dogs? Are they different from round worms? Sorry for the stupid questions, I want to be prepared if a flea attack ever comes


As I'm dealing with fleas for the first time, I would also love to know more about nematodes! I've also heard they're good for getting rid of Japanese beatles, which have been a big problem in the yard this summer.


----------



## magicre

i don't know how much i agree or disagree with you, porphyria....but that was excellently stated and very well thought out.


----------



## RCTRIPLEFRESH5

RCTRIPLEFRESH5 said:


> im so glad i started this thread...i have now eliminated flea protection unless is see ticks or fleas on winston.
> i will give interceptor every 45 days. today i gave it to him and after reading this thread felt i was killing him
> 
> 
> i have a question though.
> winston hasnt had his stool test yet9he has a history of whipworms, and although cleared in the past, we wanted to check up on it)..ive heard giving interceptor before fecal test is done can mess up the results??? i gave him interceptor today, will it mess up the stool results if ibring a stool in this week?


any thoughts?


----------



## CorgiPaws

RCTRIPLEFRESH5 said:


> any thoughts?


Had he been getting Interceptor or Heartguard or anything while in rescue? 
If he has been on preventative then there's no reason to retest, he should be covered.


----------



## SerenityFL

porphyria and schtuffy: it's like a powder. It's a white powder and they come in and sweep it on to your carpet, around baseboards, under the stove and fridge, etc. They can even treat your yard if you want although treating inside works just fine. 

To tell you how totally natural it is, the guy put some on his tongue. Would you do that with Frontline?

Nematodes are natural. They don't eat human flesh. They enjoy a buffet of fleas and they also eat bed bugs and mites. I would suggest, highly, that if you are remotely interested, go to FleaBusters website. (Just add a dot com after the name)

You will get all the information you need and you can also email them if you have further questions.

Like I said, they guarantee it for one year but I used it in Seattle and it was working, still, 5 years later when I moved out. I used it in Miami. It was working over a year later when I moved out. Everyone around me was complaining about fleas, itching, spending money on this and that and washing their clothes and vacuuming and bathing their dogs and combing for fleas and on and on and they still had fleas and there I was, happy as a clam because I did not have these problems.

Totally natural, totally safe, totally works. No poisons.


----------



## RCTRIPLEFRESH5

PuppyPaws said:


> Had he been getting Interceptor or Heartguard or anything while in rescue?
> If he has been on preventative then there's no reason to retest, he should be covered.


we feel it's best to retest as does our vet. plus his appetite hasn;t been tooo stellar, today he didnt even eat anything.

so what are everyone's thoughts on the interceptor effecting the stool exam? i was going to bring his stool in this week.


----------



## Caty M

Be patient with him, too. Is he losing weight? If not I wouldn't be overly worried as he is new to your home. A new environment is stressful.


----------



## RCTRIPLEFRESH5

Caty M said:


> Be patient with him, too. Is he losing weight? If not I wouldn't be overly worried as he is new to your home. A new environment is stressful.


we dont have an animal scale in our house, but his eating today was literally nothing and he has been eating 3-4 cups per day since he;s been here. plus he seemed to be comfortable in our hoe from day one..we even slept on the couch together, and have for every day since

but can someone give me their thoughts on whether the fecal exam results will be effected? thanks. i have a hunch that wherever i read that from as just saying you should do the test before preventative because if heartworm is present the interceptor can kill the dog...but dont know if giving a dog who has whipworms the preventative before giving hi ma fecal exam would cause the test results to be off? 
any opinions would be great  as im sure some here have been through this

sorry for asking again but this thread has so many differentt topics being discussed that it;s easy for a post to be overlooked and i have to bring his fecal in this week for our followup


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## Scarlett_O'

RCTRIPLEFRESH5 said:


> we dont have an animal scale in our house, but his eating today was literally nothing and he has been eating 3-4 cups per day since he;s been here. plus he seemed to be comfortable in our hoe from day one..we even slept on the couch together, and have for every day since
> *
> You can check weight by feeling their body build...you dont always have to have a scale. (I dont have ANY scale in my house, other then the little meat scale and that is how I determine if/when any of my 3 boys need to have food added/removed from their daily amount!:wink*
> 
> but can someone give me their thoughts on whether the fecal exam results will be effected? thanks. i have a hunch that wherever i read that from as just saying you should do the test before preventative because if heartworm is present the interceptor can kill the dog...but dont know if giving a dog who has whipworms the preventative before giving hi ma fecal exam would cause the test results to be off?
> any opinions would be great  as im sure some here have been through this


Why dont you ask your vet? (As long as you dont have one who's intelligence resembles that of my concrete patio like I do Im sure, if they knew that he had been given the preventative, they wouldnt set up the fecal if it wasnt going to be accurate!:smile


----------



## RCTRIPLEFRESH5

Scarlett_O' said:


> Why dont you ask your vet? (As long as you dont have one who's intelligence resembles that of my concrete patio like I do Im sure, if they knew that he had been given the preventative, they wouldnt set up the fecal if it wasnt going to be accurate!:smile


his intelligence does resemble that.

he told me today that lotrimen isnt fatal for dogs.

but im sure people here would have an idea. there are some vet techs on the froums.


----------



## chowder

SerenityFL said:


> t
> I was also in the military and just like Chowder, you lined up and went through the shot gun gauntlet. Because we were going overseas, we had to go through three times, a shot in each arm with a gun and if you flinched...man...dudes...just don't flinch, ok? I didn't, the person right in front of me did...and I hate shots...so, yah, that was an experience I won't soon forget.


HA! It was always the big, tough guys with all the muscles that flinched!! They regretted that!! I think those corpsmen got some kind of sick kick out of using those shot guns!


----------



## lauren43

SilverBeat said:


> I plan to only do rabies from here on out. Wallaby has had DHPP and Lepto, which I wouldn't have gotten either had I done a little research. He is due for rabies next month, I plan on getting the 3-year vacc.
> 
> For fleas and ticks I give Apple Cider Vinegar [there are several threads about this] and for heartworm I give Interceptor every 45 days. I am not comfortable putting poison in my dog though and I wish I didn't have to.


What vet do you use? Are they ok with you not vac?


----------



## Caty M

Porphyria said:


> You have run titers to determine immune response, but the majority of zero vax dog owners I have spoken to don't even bother to run titers. I agree that your dog isn't a risk for parvo or distemper, because you are confident he has immunity against these diseases. Most no vax owners I have talked to don't test their dogs' immune responses because they feel that they would choose not to vaccinate, even if their dog showed low immunity. These dogs are a potential risk, and the more of them there are, the greater the risk they pose. Just out of curiosity, if you had a dog whose titers showed low immunity against something like distemper, would you vaccinate?


I just ran them because I was curious, to be honest. I might do the same with Tess at a year as well. I don't think there is a point of running them yearly because likely immunity lasts for life, not just a year. If your dog has been vaccinated in the last I would maybe at most run titers every three years, and only if that makes you feel more comfortable.

No, I would not vaccinate if my dog showed low immunity. It's not overly common in my area. Plus titers are not the most accurate thing anyway. If he showed low immunity I feel at least that is some protection.

Yes, HPV can definitely be spread with a condom. It can be 'in the genital area', not just the area the condom covers. Mostly it's asymptomatic but complications from it are pretty common.


----------



## magicre

RCTRIPLEFRESH5 said:


> his intelligence does resemble that.
> 
> he told me today that lotrimen isnt fatal for dogs.
> 
> but im sure people here would have an idea. there are some vet techs on the froums.


to the best of my knowledge, lotrimin, if applied topically, is not fatal to dogs....


----------



## wags

RCTRIPLEFRESH5 said:


> wags you also give flea and worm if i recall right?


 Yes I do! I use Interceptor for the heartworm pills, and have had no problems what so ever. And I use Vectra 3 D to repel fleas, ticks & mosquitos which my vet also uses and I am not kidding when I forget to use it the dogs get Ticks ~icky things ~and when I use Vectra3D it really does work for my dogs and it works very very well. My dogs have had no reactions what ~so ~ever and believe me I am a worry wart about such things . So I did literally quiz my vet about the Vectra3D and was very satisfied as he assured me and reassured me that he has had no complaints about animals having reactions, including his ownpets, along with the other vets their that use it.


----------



## RCTRIPLEFRESH5

magicre said:


> to the best of my knowledge, lotrimin, if applied topically, is not fatal to dogs....


why would i apply it topically? wostons paws are the problem


----------



## RCTRIPLEFRESH5

wags said:


> Yes I do! I use Interceptor for the heartworm pills, and have had no problems what so ever. And I use Vectra 3 D to repel fleas, ticks & mosquitos which my vet also uses and I am not kidding when I forget to use it the dogs get Ticks ~icky things ~and when I use Vectra3D it really does work for my dogs and it works very very well. My dogs have had no reactions what ~so ~ever and believe me I am a worry wart about such things . So I did literally quiz my vet about the Vectra3D and was very satisfied as he assured me and reassured me that he has had no complaints about animals having reactions, including his ownpets, along with the other vets their that use it.


i believe these meds are responsibility for juvenile canine cancers.


----------



## magicre

RCTRIPLEFRESH5 said:


> why would i apply it topically? wostons paws are the problem


lotrimin is a creme...it is applied topically for athlete's foot and a number of fungal infections...

does winston have a foot problem? if not, then this is a non issue...he doesn't need it


----------



## wags

RCTRIPLEFRESH5 said:


> i believe these meds are responsibility for juvenile canine cancers.


 Never heard that.Where is it written? Would like to see it. thanks rc!


----------



## RCTRIPLEFRESH5

magicre said:


> lotrimin is a creme...it is applied topically for athlete's foot and a number of fungal infections...
> 
> does Winston have a foot problem? if not, then this is a non issue...he doesn't need it


yeah he does lol why else would i be talking about it =p
he has athletes foot according to the vet..and vetrycin doesnt seem to be clearing it up. lotriman is fatal to dogs because they lick their paws..im not willing to take that risk.
also i thought topically meant along a dogs spine lik frontline.


----------



## RCTRIPLEFRESH5

wags said:


> Never heard that.Where is it written? Would like to see it. thanks rc!


msot people ehre wont even let their dogs walk on treated grass..you think giving your dog pesticides to soak up in his blood is not going to harm him?

for the record I gave shane vectra 3d and heartworm each month.


----------



## wags

RCTRIPLEFRESH5 said:


> msot people ehre wont even let their dogs walk on treated grass..you think giving your dog pesticides to soak up in his blood is not going to harm him?
> 
> for the record I gave shane vectra 3d and heartworm each month.


Well then everyone in the vet office I go to will need to hear this!Rc, do you think that if I thought I was harming my four dogs, I would be giving this to them? Really? You dont think I would stop if I knew where you found this information? Hmmm then you just don't know me! From what the vet has told me and their are somany people I caht with well so far, I haven't heard any complaints so I am doing what I can with the knwledge I am being told.But you have no documented proof or you do? I just wanted to read where you found this out at, that's all. As for the dogs walking on treated grass I see the signs and I make sure we try and avoid it if they happen to pull on it I wash their paws. and don't give it a second thought! And if your thinking that giving Shane the Vectra#D or the Iterceptor could have caused any of his illness for me I think it was hereditary. I know people with golden's and other breeds that have succumbed to cancer. Doesn't mean they were giving them vectra3D or Inceptor they died from it being inherited. My father died from complications of Diabetes and funny he took care of himself. And once he found out he had it, he even did everything correctly. As a matter of fact the day he died he had gone to the doctor that very day the doctor said he was in great health he died 3am that very next day! Not because of something he did putting on topically or injesting , just ran in the family, it was in his genes! Doesn't mean he got it from using this product or that product. So I like to see where its written and I am as a matter of fact going to take Roxi in for her 3 year rabies shot in the next two weeks I am going to ask the vet about this and see what he comments about it.


----------



## schtuffy

RCTRIPLEFRESH5 said:


> also i thought topically meant along a dogs spine lik frontline.


Topically means applied to the skin in general, so regardless of paws or along the spine, they both fall under the definition :smile:


----------



## wags

Yikes guys sorry for the spelling mistakes ~~~Shoot I think I re~read my posts, and well, I guess not very well ~ my eyes are seeing the words correctly but its these fingers , they are just not co~operating here, they misspell alot (cough cough) heehee~again my apologies for my fingers not doing the correct typing ~~~~~bad fingers................................ can we please get a spell checker PLEASE?????????????? some of us (cough,cough ME) need it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


----------



## chowder

wags said:


> Yikes guys sorry for the spelling mistakes ~~~Shoot I think I re~read my posts, and well, I guess not very well ~ my eyes are seeing the words correctly but its these fingers , they are just not co~operating here, they misspell alot (cough cough) heehee~again my apologies for my fingers not doing the correct typing ~~~~~bad fingers................................ can we please get a spell checker PLEASE?????????????? some of us (cough,cough ME) need it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


I blame the computer.....because I KNOW that I've reread my posts and everything is spelled correctly! Then low and behold, the next day there are spelling mistakes. I think it's those computer gremlins.:typing:


----------



## RCTRIPLEFRESH5

wags said:


> Well then everyone in the vet office I go to will need to hear this!Rc, do you think that if I thought I was harming my four dogs, I would be giving this to them? Really? You dont think I would stop if I knew where you found this information? Hmmm then you just don't know me! From what the vet has told me and their are somany people I caht with well so far, I haven't heard any complaints so I am doing what I can with the knwledge I am being told.But you have no documented proof or you do? I just wanted to read where you found this out at, that's all. As for the dogs walking on treated grass I see the signs and I make sure we try and avoid it if they happen to pull on it I wash their paws. and don't give it a second thought! And if your thinking that giving Shane the Vectra#D or the Iterceptor could have caused any of his illness for me I think it was hereditary. I know people with golden's and other breeds that have succumbed to cancer. Doesn't mean they were giving them vectra3D or Inceptor they died from it being inherited. My father died from complications of Diabetes and funny he took care of himself. And once he found out he had it, he even did everything correctly. As a matter of fact the day he died he had gone to the doctor that very day the doctor said he was in great health he died 3am that very next day! Not because of something he did putting on topically or injesting , just ran in the family, it was in his genes! Doesn't mean he got it from using this product or that product. So I like to see where its written and I am as a matter of fact going to take Roxi in for her 3 year rabies shot in the next two weeks I am going to ask the vet about this and see what he comments about it.


wags relax..ure making a lot of assumptions..if you;'ll notice up until i made this thread i too thought giving flea and heartworm were risk free....but the member son this forum allowed me to see that we are poisoning our dogs.

chowder's post is spot on. you can give the flea to kill ticks that you see.


----------



## Caty M

I think most chemicals used can cause cancer. Flea and worm meds are pesticides. To be honest I know nothing of heartworm, we don't have it in our area, we also don't have fleas. Deli meats, herbicides, pesticides, preservatives in commercial food, vaccinations.. they all have the potential. Nothing in life is risk free and I guess you just have to weigh your options on everything!


----------



## RCTRIPLEFRESH5

Caty M said:


> I think most chemicals used can cause cancer. Flea and worm meds are pesticides. To be honest I know nothing of heartworm, we don't have it in our area, we also don't have fleas. Deli meats, herbicides, pesticides, preservatives in commercial food, vaccinations.. they all have the potential. Nothing in life is risk free and I guess you just have to weigh your options on everything!


deli meats?


----------



## Caty M

Yes.. the nitrates/nitrites in deli meats when cooked form nitrosamines and are carcinogenic.


----------



## wags

RCTRIPLEFRESH5 said:


> wags relax..ure making a lot of assumptions..if you;'ll notice up until i made this thread i too thought giving flea and heartworm were risk free....but the member son this forum allowed me to see that we are poisoning our dogs.
> 
> chowder's post is spot on. you can give the flea to kill ticks that you see.


I'm pretty relaxed at the moment drinking coffee and writing back! But I want to know what your are talking about with the I am making assumptions here what assumptions? I am assuming nothing here. I am not going to stop giving the dogs the interceptor nor will I not give the Vectra 3D. I did not give the dogs Vectra3D when they were puppies I just started this hmmm last year or the year before I can't remember exactly. I give it to them twice a year in the spring I put it on them and the fall. I live in Illinois its full of deer and the deer carry lyme diseased ticks so this works really well for my dogs here. As for me thinking I am doing harm to them with chemicals my god their are chemicals in drinking water so heck they are drinking the same water I am and I feel that they are fine as I am fine. See, my pint here is I can't sit here worrying about every time my dog walks on someone's grass that has been sprayed I just wash their paws and hope for the best. I can read up on all things which I do and if I feel that vectra3D is fine for my dogs well then I do it it has been widely used and has not affected the people here right now with their dogs whether it will affect them in the future then I will deal with it then I will say that I should have not listened to the people who told me their dogs did great on it and the vets who promoted it to me and all the people I chatted with at stores and just everywhere that I mentioned to I used this product. as for Inceptor most people out by me do this one because they say its the best and what works best for them and I want what I feel is the best and of course I want affordability as well. I'm not one who's wealthy but I can do the best I can for the pups and heck they are not hurting right now heehee! 
So, you still have not told me where you got the information about when you wrote JUVENILE CANINE CANCER when you asked me about giving these type products. Do you not have this info anywhere? Is this just something you think what? I just want to know where you got it from. I am though going to see what the vet says about this matter. Now also you said you gave Shane vectra3D and heartworm med's, now what were you implying with this then? I assumed you were thinking that this was part of the cancer and you think that this may have caused it . I cant understand what you were trying to imply with this. That is why I said all the people in the vet place would be pretty shocked to here something to this nature that everyone is giving their dog cancer by using products like these. I just want to know what you mean then. Well hopefully you will figure out what things you want to use on our dog and what you feel uncomfortable with. Right now I am very comfortable with what I am doing with my dogs. And I will let you know if they die from anything I have given them that I thought was a good thing. So far none of them have any problems from the interceptor or the Vectra3D. I take them in for their yearly checkups and when they need the three year rabies shot (its the law here and I am doing it) and my one goes for blood work every six months and I think that's the right thing to do! But that's it! Good Luck with Winston he's going to be fine. Heck when I grew up dogs were just that pets, no one even worried about them like we do now! I think the person who needs to relax and calm down a bit here RC is you!


----------



## Tobi

RCTRIPLEFRESH5 said:


> why would i apply it topically? wostons paws are the problem


how else would you apply a cream?
Lotrimin.com | Welcome to Lotrimin.com

is that what you're referring too? if so that is the only way you're going to get it on his paws is to apply it topically...


----------



## RCTRIPLEFRESH5

Tobi said:


> how else would you apply a cream?
> Lotrimin.com | Welcome to Lotrimin.com
> 
> is that what you're referring too? if so that is the only way you're going to get it on his paws is to apply it topically...


which is why i wouldnt give lotriman because he'd lick it off.


----------



## RCTRIPLEFRESH5

wags said:


> I'm pretty relaxed at the moment drinking coffee and writing back! But I want to know what your are talking about with the I am making assumptions here what assumptions? I am assuming nothing here. I am not going to stop giving the dogs the interceptor nor will I not give the Vectra 3D. I did not give the dogs Vectra3D when they were puppies I just started this hmmm last year or the year before I can't remember exactly. I give it to them twice a year in the spring I put it on them and the fall. I live in Illinois its full of deer and the deer carry lyme diseased ticks so this works really well for my dogs here. As for me thinking I am doing harm to them with chemicals my god their are chemicals in drinking water so heck they are drinking the same water I am and I feel that they are fine as I am fine. See, my pint here is I can't sit here worrying about every time my dog walks on someone's grass that has been sprayed I just wash their paws and hope for the best. I can read up on all things which I do and if I feel that vectra3D is fine for my dogs well then I do it it has been widely used and has not affected the people here right now with their dogs whether it will affect them in the future then I will deal with it then I will say that I should have not listened to the people who told me their dogs did great on it and the vets who promoted it to me and all the people I chatted with at stores and just everywhere that I mentioned to I used this product. as for Inceptor most people out by me do this one because they say its the best and what works best for them and I want what I feel is the best and of course I want affordability as well. I'm not one who's wealthy but I can do the best I can for the pups and heck they are not hurting right now heehee!
> So, you still have not told me where you got the information about when you wrote JUVENILE CANINE CANCER when you asked me about giving these type products. Do you not have this info anywhere? Is this just something you think what? I just want to know where you got it from. I am though going to see what the vet says about this matter. Now also you said you gave Shane vectra3D and heartworm med's, now what were you implying with this then? I assumed you were thinking that this was part of the cancer and you think that this may have caused it . I cant understand what you were trying to imply with this. That is why I said all the people in the vet place would be pretty shocked to here something to this nature that everyone is giving their dog cancer by using products like these. I just want to know what you mean then. Well hopefully you will figure out what things you want to use on our dog and what you feel uncomfortable with. Right now I am very comfortable with what I am doing with my dogs. And I will let you know if they die from anything I have given them that I thought was a good thing. So far none of them have any problems from the interceptor or the Vectra3D. I take them in for their yearly checkups and when they need the three year rabies shot (its the law here and I am doing it) and my one goes for blood work every six months and I think that's the right thing to do! But that's it! Good Luck with Winston he's going to be fine. Heck when I grew up dogs were just that pets, no one even worried about them like we do now! I think the person who needs to relax and calm down a bit here RC is you!


the assumption u were making was that i thought you wouldn't stop giving interceptor if you heard it were bad for the dogs.


----------



## RCTRIPLEFRESH5

so none of the vet techs on this forum have any knowledge on my question i asked? this is frightening!


----------



## RCTRIPLEFRESH5

wags said:


> I'm pretty relaxed at the moment drinking coffee and writing back! But I want to know what your are talking about with the I am making assumptions here what assumptions? I am assuming nothing here. I am not going to stop giving the dogs the interceptor nor will I not give the Vectra 3D. I did not give the dogs Vectra3D when they were puppies I just started this hmmm last year or the year before I can't remember exactly. I give it to them twice a year in the spring I put it on them and the fall. I live in Illinois its full of deer and the deer carry lyme diseased ticks so this works really well for my dogs here. As for me thinking I am doing harm to them with chemicals my god their are chemicals in drinking water so heck they are drinking the same water I am and I feel that they are fine as I am fine. See, my pint here is I can't sit here worrying about every time my dog walks on someone's grass that has been sprayed I just wash their paws and hope for the best. I can read up on all things which I do and if I feel that vectra3D is fine for my dogs well then I do it it has been widely used and has not affected the people here right now with their dogs whether it will affect them in the future then I will deal with it then I will say that I should have not listened to the people who told me their dogs did great on it and the vets who promoted it to me and all the people I chatted with at stores and just everywhere that I mentioned to I used this product. as for Inceptor most people out by me do this one because they say its the best and what works best for them and I want what I feel is the best and of course I want affordability as well. I'm not one who's wealthy but I can do the best I can for the pups and heck they are not hurting right now heehee!
> So, you still have not told me where you got the information about when you wrote JUVENILE CANINE CANCER when you asked me about giving these type products. Do you not have this info anywhere? Is this just something you think what? I just want to know where you got it from. I am though going to see what the vet says about this matter. Now also you said you gave Shane vectra3D and heartworm med's, now what were you implying with this then? I assumed you were thinking that this was part of the cancer and you think that this may have caused it . I cant understand what you were trying to imply with this. That is why I said all the people in the vet place would be pretty shocked to here something to this nature that everyone is giving their dog cancer by using products like these. I just want to know what you mean then. Well hopefully you will figure out what things you want to use on our dog and what you feel uncomfortable with. Right now I am very comfortable with what I am doing with my dogs. And I will let you know if they die from anything I have given them that I thought was a good thing. So far none of them have any problems from the interceptor or the Vectra3D. I take them in for their yearly checkups and when they need the three year rabies shot (its the law here and I am doing it) and my one goes for blood work every six months and I think that's the right thing to do! But that's it! Good Luck with Winston he's going to be fine. Heck when I grew up dogs were just that pets, no one even worried about them like we do now! I think the person who needs to relax and calm down a bit here RC is you!


also until you run an empirically based study you can't say it hasn't affected your dogs. you have no idea....maybe it has done nothing, but maybe it is doing something. dog's lives are so short it's impossible to know! i think they are contributing to juvenile cancer coupled with bad breeding. i said I THINK which means i dont have to back my claims up...you on the other hand know for a fact that preventative medicine has not changed your dogs physiology. you need to back that up...and you can;t not even with vet records..cause who knows the ''what iff'' on how the records would look without the vectra?

and if you want to insult my spelling, you always spell site wrong...you spell it as sight.
lie isaid wags im just trying to help..before this thread i too gave vectra and ivwerheart...and frontline and interceptor....so just relax wags


----------



## Caty M

RCTRIPLEFRESH5 said:


> so none of the vet techs on this forum have any knowledge on my question i asked? this is frightening!


I hope you don't mean it's frightening as in they don't know anything. Maybe they don't feel like answering your question. Maybe they didn't see it. Now it's YOU making assumptions.


----------



## Scarlett_O'

RCTRIPLEFRESH5 said:


> so none of the vet techs on this forum have any knowledge on my question i asked? this is frightening!





Caty M said:


> I hope you don't mean it's frightening as in they don't know anything. Maybe they don't feel like answering your question. Maybe they didn't see it. Now it's YOU making assumptions.


I also hope you aren't trying to say that our wonderful techs don't know anything!!

If I where them at this point, with you ignoring and/or arguing with pretty much everyone I wouldn't be answering either!

Sorry if that's rude...but it is the truth.


----------



## RCTRIPLEFRESH5

Scarlett_O' said:


> I also hope you aren't trying to say that our wonderful techs don't know anything!!
> 
> If I where them at this point, with you ignoring and/or arguing with pretty much everyone I wouldn't be answering either!
> 
> Sorry if that's rude...but it is the truth.


it's frightening in either sense
1-they dont know anything

OR
2- they are ignoring the question

and yes that was rude


----------



## RCTRIPLEFRESH5

Caty M said:


> I hope you don't mean it's frightening as in they don't know anything. Maybe they don't feel like answering your question. Maybe they didn't see it. Now it's YOU making assumptions.


actually u were the one who just made assumptions -_-


----------



## Tobi

RCTRIPLEFRESH5 said:


> which is why i wouldnt give lotriman because he'd lick it off.


i'm sure you could come up with some way for him NOT to lick it off... with say, children's socks on his paws where you're applying it would be a good start as it would only take about 10-15 minutes to soak in and monitoring could stop shortly after.. you can also monitor him closely and use a "leave it" command as it will deter him from licking and chewing, i know it's possible because this works with mine.


----------



## RCTRIPLEFRESH5

Tobi said:


> i'm sure you could come up with some way for him NOT to lick it off... with say, children's socks on his paws where you're applying it would be a good start as it would only take about 10-15 minutes to soak in and monitoring could stop shortly after.. you can also monitor him closely and use a "leave it" command as it will deter him from licking and chewing, i know it's possible because this works with mine.


dont feel like taking the risk when there aere many non toxic dog safe formulas lie vetricyn that should work just as well.


----------



## Tobi

RCTRIPLEFRESH5 said:


> it's frightening in either sense
> 1-they dont know anything
> 
> OR
> 2- they are ignoring the question
> 
> and yes that was rude


I'm sure they know something, if they don't it may be that they don't check the forums every 5 minutes or even every day to answer everybody's little questions, they have a job already they don't get paid to answer questions on a forum...

on the other hand, you could always call your vet and ask the questions that are burning to be asked


----------



## Tobi

Then don't, why ask about it if you're hell bent on not using it in the first place? :lol:


----------



## RCTRIPLEFRESH5

Tobi said:


> Then don't, why ask about it if you're hell bent on not using it in the first place? :lol:


i didnt ask about it, i jsut mentioned that my vet mentioned it...but after talking to some pyr owners they recommended vetricyn.

my vets a nice guy, and cares about winston, but not the brightest guy in the world. also doesnt have the best bedside...and no im not the only one who has said this.
i stick with him because he cares about the animals and doesnt care about making money. and when we went to the 500 dollar vet they misdiagnosed shanes cancer as a bug bite -_-///so might as well stick with him since he atleast recommended the biopsy


----------



## CorgiPaws

RC- the more you insult everyone around here, the less inclined they will be to answer your questions. You seem to ask questions that you've already made your mind up on anyway, and half the time you get help, you reject all the accurate answers that people so graciously take time out of their day to write out for you. You are SO FAST to point the "that's rude" finger at anyone who calls you out on it, but it's also pretty rude to assume that the techs and other members of this forum know nothing about anything simply because they have not gotten back to you in a timely manner. Well, I hate to break it to you, but some people have lives to attend to. I know Jon and Natalie are working their fingers to the bone sun up til sun down on their new house, and Natalie is hard at work at her new job helping people that are actually willing to listen to an educated response. 
Just remember the way you have treated people next time you need to know if a treat has gone radioactive from touching a camera lens. After so many rude outbursts, many will simply ignore your posts, if they have not already.

PS. Your alternative to topical treatments with the paw issue is to do nothing. It's your dog. It's your choice. Real ACV seems to be a miracle worker, I'd maybe give that a go.


----------



## magicre

RCTRIPLEFRESH5 said:


> it's frightening in either sense
> 1-they dont know anything
> 
> OR
> 2- they are ignoring the question
> 
> and yes that was rude


rude aside....i'm not sure you'll be satisfied, no matter what answer you get.

i think you're determined to be paranoid about everything in so far as winston is concerned.

there are things we do with our own bodies and our dogs...and everything carries with it some risk....

the idea is to assess the level of risk and decide if it's worth it.

but to say that no one knows anything because whatever answer you're looking for has so far eluded you is simply wrong.

i think fifteen pages of posts shows that people are trying to help.

i now have to question how much you really want answers.


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## Caty M

RCTRIPLEFRESH5 said:


> actually u were the one who just made assumptions -_-


_Actually_ no I wasn't. I don't even know what you are talking about. By what your post said you think none of the techs have any info on the question you were talking about. I didn't make any assumptions. I gave a couple reasons as to why they didn't answer you.


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## Caty M

How is clotrimazole (lotrimin) deadly? Most of the side effects are just skin irritation. I'd like to know where you read that it's deadly if they lick a bit off. They use it in the nasal cavities of dogs.

As Linsey said ACV is good.


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## DoglovingSenior

*NEVER* try to teach a pig to sing, it wastes your time and annoys the pig. Mark Twain


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## RCTRIPLEFRESH5

PuppyPaws said:


> RC- the more you insult everyone around here, the less inclined they will be to answer your questions. You seem to ask questions that you've already made your mind up on anyway, and half the time you get help, you reject all the accurate answers that people so graciously take time out of their day to write out for you. You are SO FAST to point the "that's rude" finger at anyone who calls you out on it, but it's also pretty rude to assume that the techs and other members of this forum know nothing about anything simply because they have not gotten back to you in a timely manner. Well, I hate to break it to you, but some people have lives to attend to. I know Jon and Natalie are working their fingers to the bone sun up til sun down on their new house, and Natalie is hard at work at her new job helping people that are actually willing to listen to an educated response.
> Just remember the way you have treated people next time you need to know if a treat has gone radioactive from touching a camera lens. After so many rude outbursts, many will simply ignore your posts, if they have not already.
> 
> PS. Your alternative to topical treatments with the paw issue is to do nothing. It's your dog. It's your choice. Real ACV seems to be a miracle worker, I'd maybe give that a go.


what's ACV?
i asked the vet why the vetricyn isnt working and he claims it'll take a lil more time..who knows it was costly though


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## ShanniBella

I personally think that all dogs should be vaccinated as puppies and then titer test at a year before you do anymore. I only gave my dog two rounds of puppy shots and a rabies. The rabies here in Massachusetts is every 3 years and it is law. I don't understand how anyone can get away with not vaccinating against it. It is not worth the risk for my dog having to be quarantined if she is bitten by a rabid animal or if she ever bit a person. I however don't give any flea or tick repellents as they are filled with chemicals, poisons, and carcinogens. People fall into the hype of using them because they try to scare us into buying them. Remember, these companys that sell and advertise these products make lots of $$$ off people thinking they are protecting there pets when owners are slowly poisoning them instead. Sorry, that don't work with me  I do give limited heartworm medication (interceptor) 4 months out of the year and I do the lowest dose possible meaning that if my dog weighed 55 lbs I wouldn't give her the pills that are for 50-100 lb dogs. I would give her the next size down for smaller dogs and my vet is okay with that. It is still just as effective.


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## magicre

RCTRIPLEFRESH5 said:


> what's ACV?
> i asked the vet why the vetricyn isnt working and he claims it'll take a lil more time..who knows it was costly though


acv is apple cider vinegar.....


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## ShanniBella

RCTRIPLEFRESH5 said:


> what's ACV?
> i asked the vet why the vetricyn isnt working and he claims it'll take a lil more time..who knows it was costly though


Apple cider vinegar...Only buy the braggs organic with the mother in it


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## RCTRIPLEFRESH5

ShanniBella said:


> Apple cider vinegar...Only buy the braggs organic with the mother in it


is that by the olive oil? ive never even heard of it? lol!


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## RCTRIPLEFRESH5

ShanniBella said:


> I personally think that all dogs should be vaccinated as puppies and then titer test at a year before you do anymore. I only gave my dog two rounds of puppy shots and a rabies. The rabies here in Massachusetts is every 3 years and it is law. I don't understand how anyone can get away with not vaccinating against it. It is not worth the risk for my dog having to be quarantined if she is bitten by a rabid animal or if she ever bit a person. I however don't give any flea or tick repellents as they are filled with chemicals, poisons, and carcinogens. People fall into the hype of using them because they try to scare us into buying them. Remember, these companys that sell and advertise these products make lots of $$$ off people thinking they are protecting there pets when owners are slowly poisoning them instead. Sorry, that don't work with me  I do give limited heartworm medication (interceptor) 4 months out of the year and I do the lowest dose possible meaning that if my dog weighed 55 lbs I wouldn't give her the pills that are for 50-100 lb dogs. I would give her the next size down for smaller dogs and my vet is okay with that. It is still just as effective.


winston is 100 pounds and we give him the 50-100 which means he is getting a pretty low dose of interceptor..much lower than the 50 pound dog who is getting double the dose.


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## ShanniBella

Funny you ask because that is where I find it at my local grocery store  lol!


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## Tobi

we get it at (vitamine shoppe) here. about 20$ per gallon.


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## Caty M

RCTRIPLEFRESH5 said:


> what's ACV?
> i asked the vet why the vetricyn isnt working and he claims it'll take a lil more time..who knows it was costly though


What kind of vetricyn is it? 

Vetericyn One-step wound and infection treatment that works naturally with your animal?s immune system

One of them is mostly just a salt bath.


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## CorgiPaws

RCTRIPLEFRESH5 said:


> is that by the olive oil? ive never even heard of it? lol!


braggs apple cider vinegar - Google Search

$21 with shipping on Amazon. Unfortunately, it is not one of the free shipping items with Amazon Prime. 
I swear I get EVERYTHING on Amazon


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## magicre

PuppyPaws said:


> braggs apple cider vinegar - Google Search
> 
> $21 with shipping on Amazon. Unfortunately, it is not one of the free shipping items with Amazon Prime.
> I swear I get EVERYTHING on Amazon


between the co op and amazon, it's a wonder i have enough to feed myself after.


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## magicre

would epsom salts work?


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## KC23

RE: the Bragg's ACV, I find it in the health section of my grocery store (Kroger). It's not by the other ACVs without "the mother" in it (Heinz, etc.) or the white vinegar. So..you could start off w/a much smaller bottle for under $5 to see if it works. You'd only need a small amount diluted in water anyhow if you are making a soak--you don't want it to burn his already-irritated paws.

I've seen Bragg's in vitamin and health shops as well. I know Vitacost.com has it too.


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## wags

RCTRIPLEFRESH5 said:


> the assumption u were making was that i thought you wouldn't stop giving interceptor if you heard it were bad for the dogs.


Ummm what???????????????? If I heard that this product was killing dogs,confirmed it with a vets , anyone who worked in this field, had absolute proof of this , confirmed it with people who had dogs affected from this product , Iwould of course stop it. I have yet to here these testimonies though. are you grabbing at straws right now? Ummmm still what??????????????????? I am shaking my head in confusion here I just dont get what your talking about.


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## wags

RCTRIPLEFRESH5 said:


> also until you run an empirically based study you can't say it hasn't affected your dogs. you have no idea....maybe it has done nothing, but maybe it is doing something. dog's lives are so short it's impossible to know! i think they are contributing to juvenile cancer coupled with bad breeding. i said I THINK which means i dont have to back my claims up...you on the other hand know for a fact that preventative medicine has not changed your dogs physiology. you need to back that up...and you can;t not even with vet records..cause who knows the ''what iff'' on how the records would look without the vectra?
> 
> and if you want to insult my spelling, you always spell site wrong...you spell it as sight.
> lie isaid wags im just trying to help..before this thread i too gave vectra and ivwerheart...and frontline and interceptor....so just relax wags


Well Rc, I see from what you have written you actually have nothingh to back up what you said originally about juvenile canine cancer. So you were just talking out your oh never mind. See the WORDS I THINK THEY ARE CONTRIBUTING that's the point you DONT know YOU THINK. What this is ~is if this company sees you spreading garbage around about their products and saying accusations/rumors that you have no proof of well good luck to you. You cant just assume or say well I think this product will give my dog cancer or gee I think this may give my dog diabetes~ you just can't say this sort of garbage. And yes your correct they need to do studies to find these things out which I pretty much would say yes they are doing these studies, no holds barred. Bad breeding has been going on since puppy mills since dogs just got out the gate way back when and there will always be those bad breeders. And yes bad breeding GENETICS is a cause of many different diseases that animals can get. That's a well know fact. Oh and I can't back up that my dogs have not changed their physiology I already told you RC I will let you be the first to know when my dogs die I will have an autopsy done just for you and they can tell me if the vectra3D or the interceptor played a role in their deaths. That's how I will back this up for you. For right now what do you want me to tell you, I already said for right now my dogs have had no ill effects from these products what more can I say to you than this? What other things do you want me to do to convince you that this is all I know at this point in my dogs lives? So, for me so far with it so good with both products that is all I can say at this point.

Ummm and for one other thing here, I posted about what I spelled incorrectly I was woman enough to man up to my spelling mistakes haha! I said meaning for myself (some of us coughchough ME )need the spell check it was all geared to ME~ RC nothing to you! I have never said anything about your spelling because I wouldn't give you the time of day to worry about how you spell or what you have to say anymore. And I certainly will keep a handle on spelling the word sight right. Thank you Rc for pointing that one out to me. I have made so many other mistakes in other posts maybe you should go back and re read all of them and give me a heads up on the other mistakes I have written!You seem to dish out things but just can't handle anyone dishing back. Relaxing is a great vice I do enjoy it. Take heed in your own words RC just go out have a smoothie or a shake or whatever calms you down, take Winston for a nice walk and don't worry so much about every little teenie tiny thing that he does. all dogs can handle things differently. Its in their nature to be just wonderful stressless companions. So let your companion help you to relax. Your going to have ulcers before you hit 22!


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## CorgiPaws

This thread is officially going nowhere good.
Many have taken their time to give RC the answers to his questions, and there's nothing more to be said about it. Not that it would matter if there was. 
Thread closed.


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