# New to raw with questions (a very generic thread)



## Stinky (May 31, 2012)

So hi all. I hope my typical generic newbie question thread isn't an annoyance. I have a variety of questions to ask. I've just started my dog on raw only two weeks ago and it is a little scary! "Questions" (or miniature novels), let's see...

1. I don't have much freezer space as I live with my parents and I don't think they'd go for the idea of a new freezer (my father is also against raw feeding; he feeds his dog Purina Beneful or whatever that crap is). We have an indoor freezer/fridge combo that doesn't seem to work too well. The freezer ruins ice cream in just a few days, causing ice crystals and such. I'm guessing this is because of it's automatic defrost thing. Is it unsafe to store meat in a freezer like this? The setting was a bit low and I changed it yesterday to the coldest possible setting so I'm hoping that would make a difference. 

2. How do people afford to feed more expensive meats, beef in particular? I haven't eaten meat in eight years and I've never even looked at the prices until now. They baffle me. The cheapest beef I can find is at least around $3 a pound, and that's fatty ground beef. I have read posts in raw feed groups and such where people say they try to stay under $1 a pound with limits such as $2.50 a pound...I've yet to find any beef that price. 

3. Poop watching - We have a fenced in yard connected to the house that the dogs (my father's dog and my dog) are let out into very frequently, even in the middle of the night. Often I am not the one to let the dog out so I have not been present for many bowel movements [since switching to raw]. How important is this? If I can manage to see some of bowel movements every 2-3 days, is this frequent enough? I would prefer to be able to see all to make sure he is healthy but it isn't easily done with my current living situation. 

4. What protein should be given next? I have read I should feed red meat next but I've also read that turkey is the next ideal protein to feed.

5. Upon embarking on this raw adventure, I purchased some New Zealand rabbits for feeding. They are fed pellets and hay. Does this qualify as "grass fed" meat that provides the omegas (or whatever it is)? Note that I won't be feeding the rabbits as this next protein because I don't have any available for butcher yet.

6. Do people mostly feeding odd cheap cuts like necks, backs, and feet or more typical grocery store cuts? (I'm wondering if this is how people are affording cheap beef and pork.)

Sorry for the awkwardness...I'll probably have more questions as well. Thank you for taking the time to read and respond, should you choose to.


----------



## BearMurphy (Feb 29, 2012)

i'll answer your beef question.....it is very expensive at a grocery store so I have to buy beef chunks and beef heart from my local co-op. without a large freezer I don't know how you would buy in bulk though.


----------



## BeagleCountry (Jan 20, 2012)

Please provide information as to where you live. This can be done in the Profile section. What is the breed, weight, age and activity level of your dog? How much of the refrigerator freezer space is available for your use? This info will help us answer your questions.

Below is a link to the Getting Started Guide. This will answer some of your questions. Study the entire site as there is a lot of useful information. Also, read the current and past questions in the DCF raw section as well as the stickies. Note the date on the questions and stickies, especially those related to prices, as there may have been price increases.
How to Get Started | Prey Model Raw

You should be watching the dog's bowel movements. If you do not the dog could be constipated from too much bone or have diarrhea from not enough bone or a few other factors. You should be the one taking your dog out, not your parents. Simply offer to take the dogs out. Set your alarm if necessary.


----------



## Makovach (Jan 24, 2012)

Stinky said:


> So hi all. I hope my typical generic newbie question thread isn't an annoyance. I have a variety of questions to ask. I've just started my dog on raw only two weeks ago and it is a little scary! "Questions" (or miniature novels), let's see...
> 
> 1. I don't have much freezer space as I live with my parents and I don't think they'd go for the idea of a new freezer (my father is also against raw feeding; he feeds his dog Purina Beneful or whatever that crap is). We have an indoor freezer/fridge combo that doesn't seem to work too well. The freezer ruins ice cream in just a few days, causing ice crystals and such. I'm guessing this is because of it's automatic defrost thing. Is it unsafe to store meat in a freezer like this? The setting was a bit low and I changed it yesterday to the coldest possible setting so I'm hoping that would make a difference. *I fed two boxers off of a 3 cubic foot freezer for two months. They ate about 3.75lbs a day. So depending on the size of your dog, I would think it is very doable. And as far as the freezer not staying frozen, I would think it would be okay if it froze, warmed up for the defrost and refroze. My freezer does this as well. It can be hard to feed raw when you live with your parents and they are against it. I faught with my family, and wasn't able to start all my dogs until I moved out on my own.
> *
> ...


Answers above. 
We can also help you out more if you let us know where you are located. We can help you find butchers and co-ops in your area.


----------



## naturalfeddogs (Jan 6, 2011)

Stinky said:


> So hi all. I hope my typical generic newbie question thread isn't an annoyance. I have a variety of questions to ask. I've just started my dog on raw only two weeks ago and it is a little scary! "Questions" (or miniature novels), let's see...
> 
> 1. I don't have much freezer space as I live with my parents and I don't think they'd go for the idea of a new freezer (my father is also against raw feeding; he feeds his dog Purina Beneful or whatever that crap is). We have an indoor freezer/fridge combo that doesn't seem to work too well. The freezer ruins ice cream in just a few days, causing ice crystals and such. I'm guessing this is because of it's automatic defrost thing. Is it unsafe to store meat in a freezer like this? The setting was a bit low and I changed it yesterday to the coldest possible setting so I'm hoping that would make a difference.
> 
> ...



Welcome to raw! I'll try to answer questions for you.

1)The freezer you have sounds like it will be fine, you just won't be able to buy in bulk. Just enough for whatever freezer space you have available.
2)You aren't ready for beef yet since you have only just started raw, but in the meantime start doing some research on different butchers and co-ops in your area. You can also advertise on Craigslist for any older meat people may have to get rid of.
3)Watch the poop as much as you can, mainly in the beginning and with new proteins. It's not a huge deal, but it does let you know when you may to add more bone etc.. 
4)I assume you have started with chicken, so next will be turkey. Then fish THEN red meats. Red meats are rich and take some adjusting before they are introduced.
5)As far as the rabbits and omegas, I'm not real sure about that, since rabbit is a white meat and omegas tend to be red meats. But, someone who knows more about that will chime in.
6)Necks,back and feet are bone heavy so they are fed as bone in meals. 

Keep on asking questions, thats why we are here!


----------



## SonyaBullyDog (Jun 6, 2011)

Stinky said:


> So hi all. I hope my typical generic newbie question thread isn't an annoyance. I have a variety of questions to ask. I've just started my dog on raw only two weeks ago and it is a little scary! "Questions" (or miniature novels), let's see...
> 
> 1. I don't have much freezer space as I live with my parents and I don't think they'd go for the idea of a new freezer (my father is also against raw feeding; he feeds his dog Purina Beneful or whatever that crap is). We have an indoor freezer/fridge combo that doesn't seem to work too well. The freezer ruins ice cream in just a few days, causing ice crystals and such. I'm guessing this is because of it's automatic defrost thing. Is it unsafe to store meat in a freezer like this? The setting was a bit low and I changed it yesterday to the coldest possible setting so I'm hoping that would make a difference.
> 
> ...



Welcome and how awesome that you are feeding raw!

I am lazy and very bad at planning, so I just buy meat when my dog runs out. I only have a few packages of meat at a time (2-3 in my freezer and 1 in my fridge). I started off trying to rotate meats daily, but now I will feed from one package until it runs out and then open a new package. I buy meat in grocery stores. I try to buy things that don't appeal to people and therefore are cheaper. Chicken quarters, chicken gizzards, chicken necks, turkey gizzards, turkey necks, pork necks, beef heart (look around in stores, some will have this), beef for stew, pork shoulder, fish heads (can usually find this in Asian stores), eggs. I also tend to buy and not use meat for myself, so the dog gets all the old "human" meat. 

Good luck! It gets way easier after a while! (Or I just got lazy and rarely worry about "balancing" meals and watching poop religiously). When I freaked out in the beginning bout something, I always remembered that I know of a wolf dog sanctuary that feeds only chicken quarters and their animals are all seniors and doing well. So it's difficult to screw things up with a raw diet (I don't recommend this though...)


----------



## Stinky (May 31, 2012)

Thank you for the responses! From what you all have said and from the other things I've read, my assumption that people generally feed less desirable cuts seems to be true. This helps. 

BeagleCountry - I am in Iowa, my dog is a male Pomeranian, 11 pounds, 3 years old. As far as activity level, I am not sure. What I may see as active may be nothing compared to what someone else sees as active. Thanks for the guide link, I haven't found that one yet but I've read many others. I will continue reading past threads when time permits. I've only gone about 4 pages back thus far and have only chose to read them judging by the topic names. As for me being the one to take him out, it is not so simple. Setting an alarm would not be helpful because he does not go out at the same time every night. He likes to go out to the fenced in yard (then back in and out again) very frequently. The dogs love to bark at things in the middle of the night so many of the trips out are for that. My father does not agree with my choice to feed my dog raw and will not cooperate as far as not letting my dog outside at night when I'm not there. 

Makovach - I am glad to hear that a small auto defrosting freezer worked for you! I guess that means it should hopefully work for me. I am not sure as to the dimensions of my freezer. I bet it will hold under 40 pounds, though...so no option to even buy one case. I'd love to get another freezer, but if I were to even suggest it, I am sure my father would be angry. 



> Call around to all the butchers with in the distance you are willing to drive. Look for local co-ops and other people who feed raw. Ask for necks, backs, spines, scrap, hearts, tongue, tails and freezer burnt meats. I found a small Amish butcher where I get beef heart for $0.99 perlb, you just have to look every where. up and down and all around. All the other places around here are over $2 per lb for beef heart.


I called one a week or so ago and asked for organs and they said they couldn't legally sell them! Thankfully I managed to find a few at nearby stores (tripe, livers, and brain). I haven't found any co-ops but there is an Iowa Yahoo raw feeding group that has been a great help as far as sourcing meat. I found a place that a lot of people buy from that will order cases (but of course I don't have the space to do so). 



> I started out on chicken, then turkey, then pork shoulder roast, the pork heart, next is beef heart, then organs. What works best for you is what you should do. I had to skip turkey and go to pork with one of my pups because he is allergic to turkey. There was no issue. Make sure you are feeding a substantial amount of meat with the boney chicken before you start to add in the next protein. For example, I started with chicken backs, then moved up to chicken quarters, then moved up to chicken quarter with breast meat. When I introduced turkey, I started out with Chicken quarters and a bit of turkey neck, then I added more boneless chicken and more turkey neck, then I added started chicken backs and turkey breast. With pork I started the same way and alternated ribs and then moved on to roast and then heart. When introducing a new meat, it helps to have a bit extra bone and you only want to start with a sliver at a time .5-1 oz and gradually (slowly) move up from there. My goal was to have them eating 50-60% boneless of one protein before introducing another.


Thank you this is so very helpful! I haven't found any necks or backs in stores yet but I would like to get some to feed in the same way you have. I'm definitely hoping to find the turkey necks. Turkey will be next, when I can manage to successfully "poop watch".



> I would not qualify grass fed as eating pellets and hay. To me, grass fed is in a field eating plants only and no man made substance. You can still feed it. You can always try to get grass fed in something else, but to start I wouldn't worry about it much. Get your proteins first then worry about grass fed. My meats are half free range and half not. I've not had a problem. Grass fed meats are also more expensive.


 Darn. I thought the hay might since it contains dried grass. I've heard that rabbits shouldn't have much grass. 



> My dogs eat chicken quarters, chicken backs, chicken breast, turkey necks, turkey breast, pork shoulder roast, pork heart, pork spare ribs, beef heart. Around where I am that tends to be the cheaper cuts. You can get some at the grocery store, but if you do always check to see that it has less than 100mg sodium per 4oz serving, if it has more, stay away from it because it is enhanced and can cause problems. Feed what you can, when you can. Its all about balance over time. and durring transition, you want to move slowly. I'm on month three and just now getting to beef!


This is also extremely helpful. I will be keeping my eye out for these things. Of course, I've found leg quarters (and cheap, .70cents/lb). I think I also saw beef heart. I've been keeping my eye out with the enhanced stuff. It seems that most chicken (at least at Walmart) is enhanced! Very frustrating. I was only going by the "% broth" thing on the front of the package rather than reading the sodium content on the back.

Naturalfeddogs - I've tried the Craig's List thing, no scores yet, but keeping my fingers crossed. I also mentioned above that I've not found any co-ops here in Iowa but the Iowa yahoo raw feeding group has helped me find some good sources. I have started with chicken. Kind of forgot about fish...I have a feeling finding sources for that will be the most difficult. 

SonyaBullyDog - You and I have something in common (other than, yanno...feeding our dogs raw)! I am lazy and very bad at planning, too. It's been making this feeding raw thing a bit worrisome and stressful. I really need to locate some necks in stores. I think I saw pork necks but they looked horribly bony. I really need to visit the Asian food store around here to see what they have. Interesting about the wolf dog sanctuary. That makes me feel a bit better about this, though I certainly wouldn't try that myself. 

Thanks again everyone.


----------



## BearMurphy (Feb 29, 2012)

i think an 11 lb Pom can definitely be fed out your normal fridge freezer! i noticed that you are listing some pretty large cuts for that size dog though. why not do chicken wings instead of backs, they should have similar bone content. i wouldn't do quarters unless you are comfortable handing your dog the quarter and taking it back multiple times. also instead of turkey necks you could do chicken and duck necks which are more manageable for a dog that size. i don't have a small dog but that's how I would approach it with the bone in cuts because i'm not a fan of cutting up bone in cuts of meat. there are others with small dogs experience who can give better advice though i'm sure


----------



## Liz (Sep 27, 2010)

Welcome - ask away! My mom feeds her sheltie out of their house freezer. He gets mostly PMR with some ground. The ground she gets is the more exotic meats I found through a vendor and it eases her mind that he is getting variety. So she buys the little guy cornish game hens, chicken, pork ribs, turkey heart and pork heart. I order from a co-op the ground exotics two or three times per year for her and then he gets goat, emu, bison, elk and kangaroo. 

She also keeps everything to about $1.50 or less per pound. Please don't buy tripe at the grocery store as it is bleached and worthless nutritionally.  Try to watch their stools as often as you can especially when you add a protein or lower their bone intake to make sure they are OK with what you are doing.

Welcome - glad to try to answer your questions. Everyone one else has already done a great job.


----------



## Stinky (May 31, 2012)

> i think an 11 lb Pom can definitely be fed out your normal fridge freezer! i noticed that you are listing some pretty large cuts for that size dog though. why not do chicken wings instead of backs, they should have similar bone content. i wouldn't do quarters unless you are comfortable handing your dog the quarter and taking it back multiple times. also instead of turkey necks you could do chicken and duck necks which are more manageable for a dog that size. i don't have a small dog but that's how I would approach it with the bone in cuts because i'm not a fan of cutting up bone in cuts of meat. there are others with small dogs experience who can give better advice though i'm sure


Well, I have others that need meat as well that are large than my dog so being able to buy some cases and store more meat would be nice. I have given him chicken wings but I have also read that they can be dangerous choking hazards so I stopped buying them. I've never actually seen many of these cuts that I've been talking about so I have no idea how large they are. I've bought quarters and I've been cutting them, but it's certainly a pain to deal with cutting around the bone. They're cheaper than anything else I've found thus far, though. 



> Welcome - ask away! My mom feeds her sheltie out of their house freezer. He gets mostly PMR with some ground. The ground she gets is the more exotic meats I found through a vendor and it eases her mind that he is getting variety. So she buys the little guy cornish game hens, chicken, pork ribs, turkey heart and pork heart. I order from a co-op the ground exotics two or three times per year for her and then he gets goat, emu, bison, elk and kangaroo.
> 
> She also keeps everything to about $1.50 or less per pound. Please don't buy tripe at the grocery store as it is bleached and worthless nutritionally.  Try to watch their stools as often as you can especially when you add a protein or lower their bone intake to make sure they are OK with what you are doing.
> 
> Welcome - glad to try to answer your questions. Everyone one else has already done a great job.


It sounds like your Mom is getting a great variety for her dog! Here I am worrying that I'll have trouble with even different meats...
I didn't know about the tripe...yikes. I have no idea where else to get it since I've been hit with the "state law" crap trying to buy organs. Hopefully the Asian food store will be of use.


----------



## Liz (Sep 27, 2010)

Ethnic stores are usually fantastic. The asian store should have some good variety of organ and fish and even a few different meats. I wouldn't worry about excessive variety for a while. Your dog would do fantastic on three or four. Chicken, turkey, pork and beef would be great.


----------



## Gally (Jan 28, 2012)

Stinky said:


> I have given him chicken wings but I have also read that they can be dangerous choking hazards so I stopped buying them.


Chicken wings are mostly a choking hazard for large dogs. I wouldn't feed one to a great dane but your pom should do fine with them. It's important to get appropriately sized pieces for the size of your dog. If the piece is too big you can take it away after they finish an appropriate amount and put it back in the fridge for the next meal. You want the pieces big enough that they need to chew at least a bit before swallowing.


----------



## Stinky (May 31, 2012)

Shame it's harder to find cheap chicken wings than it is leg quarters (then hard to find meat that isn't enhanced on top of all that). How many times is it safe to give the dog meat, let them eat some, and put it back in the fridge for next feed? Can poultry be kept in the fridge for longer for dogs than it can for people?


----------



## KittyKat (Feb 11, 2011)

I feed beef heart because its cheaper. I get it from my butcher for 2.99 a lb (Canadian). Chicken backs and necks are also pretty cheap (usually 99 cents a lb or less).

Get a good pair of kitchen scissors and get cutting. :3


----------



## Stinky (May 31, 2012)

Scissors...to cut through bone or just flesh? Is it safe to cut some bone and then feed it (since it could have jagged ends and stuff)?


----------



## KittyKat (Feb 11, 2011)

Stinky said:


> Scissors...to cut through bone or just flesh? Is it safe to cut some bone and then feed it (since it could have jagged ends and stuff)?


Yeah I hack through the bone with them. If I can feed it whole I generally will, but if you think about it, the dog cracks the bone anyways. For a small dog like yours you can cut up chicken necks for them pretty nicely. Mine just try and swallow the damn things whole. You can cut up chicken backs as well.


----------



## Stinky (May 31, 2012)

Went shopping today at an Asian market. I bought chicken feet, beef shank, pork heart, and pork liver. There were quite a few things that were not labeled, including the pork liver. I found out what it was by googling pictures of what I thought it might be. I was hoping it was something else as I already bought chicken liver. I was cutting up one of the pork livers and it had these weird red firm pieces of what looked like plastic. Is this normal? There was only a little bit close to where it was already sliced open. The others didn't have it that I saw. I threw out the little bit of plastic looking stuff. 

Also, I've read that it's recommended to get grass fed organs but I do not know where to get them. Is it okay to feed some liver (and other organs) that are not grass fed? I will look for grass fed in the future, but what if I can't find any? Also, the meats at the Asian market did not have any information on them about them being enhanced or anything...should I be concerned about this? 

My dog was offered his chicken yesterday and wouldn't eat. He was offered today and wouldn't eat. I let him have a chicken foot. He carried it off but then put it down and left it. I was cutting up my purchases to freeze and - I know it's a "no no" - I gave him some (a little pinch) of the beef "shank". He took to it immediately, enjoyed it, and wanted more. He was never that interested in the raw chicken. He usually takes some time to eat it like he doesn't want to but knows he has to sort of thing. Does this mean he just doesn't like chicken? Will he most likely react the same way with turkey?

Pork heart is much cheaper than normal pork meat. I paid $2.90 for 1.62lb. Is it okay to feed mostly or all pork heart for the pork part of the diet?


----------



## Liz (Sep 27, 2010)

90% of the pork we feed is heart - theother is pork neck when I can get it sliced lengthwise so it is large and not a choking hazard.


----------



## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

Stinky said:


> Pork heart is much cheaper than normal pork meat. I paid $2.90 for 1.62lb. Is it okay to feed mostly or all pork heart for the pork part of the diet?


All the pork I am feeding now is heart. I also got pork tongue at the Asian market pretty cheap but my dogs dont' tolerate it.

I don't know what the plastic thingy was. I've never seen that.

Your dog is being picky. He is holding out for the stuff he really likes.


----------



## Stinky (May 31, 2012)

Alright, I feel better about the idea of only feeding pork heart then. By the way, KittyKat, thanks for the suggestion the scissors. They are SO MUCH BETTER than a knife, any day! I couldn't believe how great they are for cutting meat AND bone! 

So last night I bought a freezer. Now I'm ready to buy cases. I'm not really sure what I should get, though, since many cuts are apparently so large. Ideas? 

I got him to eat yesterday finally. Just had to hand feed him a little bit to get him interested then he carried it away.


----------



## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

By the way, you can feed dogs meat alot longer than humans. And you can refreeze it alot. I refreeze most of my meat several times, as I don't like using alot of plastic bags and I don't like to take the time to put stuff into small portions that I use up in one day. 

So i just put alot of it in a grocery store bag and use it for a couple of days, then refreeze it. Organs, I refreeze many times because I don't like handling it thawed.


----------



## Stinky (May 31, 2012)

By using it a lot longer you mean out of date and stuff, right? I read some threads where people were using meat older than they were! 

I cut up my organs and put them in freezer bags but they are, of course, just frozen into big hard blobs all together. I'm worried about having to thaw and refreeze repeatedly...not sure what I will do. I need some really tiny freezer bags! 

Like you said, I don't like [the idea of] taking the time to put stuff into small portions to be used for each day. I'm not a very organized person, kinda lazy, I "just wing it" with a lot of things. 

For you, do you not like handling any thawed organs or just certain ones? I didn't have a problem with the heart (I know it doesn't count toward the 10% organs) or the pork liver. I'm probably going to order the rest of my secreting organs on MyPetCarnivore since they deliver to my area and I have a freezer now (and it's grassfed).


----------



## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

I love My Pet Carnivore. They have the best dog food meat I've ever gotten.

out of date, refrozen alot of times, freezer burned - dogs don't mind any of that. I feed stinky meat sometimes. i recently accidentally left some chicken hearts in the fridge for over a week and they were really stinky, and my dogs loved them.

I refreeze all the organs, but it's the spleen that gets me more than anything. I can't stand the texture. Kidneys actually don't bother me, nor does liver, but spleen does. My pancreas is ground but the goo of it bugs me when totally thawed. I put them all in the freezer in similar containers, throw one in the fridge for 24 hours, give it to them half thawed, throw it back in the freezer the next day and get out the next container. I bet I thaw some out 7-8 times before they are empty.

i wing everything. I am horribly lazy. I would go crazy putting meal size portions in bags, labelling it, storing it - and since I try to be environmentally aware I am not willing to throw away baggies after one use so I re-wash them and use them over and over. I keep my beef hearts all in one spot since they get that most every day, but the rest of the meat is just a crapshoot. It's normally in grocery sacks. It's a surprise to everyone when I thaw it and open it up.

the only meat I will dig for are turkey necks, since my smaller dog gets those at least twice a week. And the big things like lamb and hogsheads are easy to find.

Occasionally I dig down to the bottom of my freezer and put all that stuff on the top so i don't let something sit there forever. So I often find nice surprises i have totally forgotten about. Last week I found some rabbit heads and I haven't bought those since last August - I thought I was out.


----------



## Stinky (May 31, 2012)

Oh then I am looking forward to getting some meat from MPC then. 

I am glad that there is someone out there taking the same approach that I know I will be taking - rethawing/refreezing, letting meat sit in the fridge for more than two days, and not putting meal size portions in labeled bags. It's just not me. I have been also washing my freezer bags. They seem to be holding up alright.

My new freezer is 5.0 cubic feet. According to my calculations, I'll need to feed maybe 26 pounds of meat per month (note that is is not all for my little dog). I'm not sure that warrants buying cases of meat, but I still want to since I have the freezer space and it'll save a lot of money. I notice your signature (and your post) mentions a small breed of dog - Snorkels. What cuts do you feed him and do you cut them up or just let him eat some then take it away? I don't think I'll be able to comfortably take away meat so I'm pretty much stuck with cutting or breaking up pieces. Are turkey necks fragile enough to snap or cut through? 

Thanks again!


----------



## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

i let my organs defrost and then cut them into pieces.

when they refreeze and glob together, i put the organs on the floor wrapped in a towel and hit them with a mallet which usually breaks them up again.


----------



## Maligatork9 (Feb 8, 2012)

I do the same with my organs, although I go a little more caveman and just slam the package into my garage floor. Then I take the broken pieces and put them into a new bag (the original bag never survives). I grab a chunk or two and feed it with the rest of the meal.


----------



## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

Stinky said:


> My new freezer is 5.0 cubic feet. According to my calculations, I'll need to feed maybe 26 pounds of meat per month (note that is is not all for my little dog). I'm not sure that warrants buying cases of meat, but I still want to since I have the freezer space and it'll save a lot of money. I notice your signature (and your post) mentions a small breed of dog - Snorkels. What cuts do you feed him and do you cut them up or just let him eat some then take it away? I don't think I'll be able to comfortably take away meat so I'm pretty much stuck with cutting or breaking up pieces. Are turkey necks fragile enough to snap or cut through?
> 
> Thanks again!


Snorkels is a little different because she only has four teeth. But yes, I take meat away from her all the time. Mainly because over time she has learned, rather than chew up something like a chicken neck or back, to just swallow it whole. Since I want her to get dental benefits, I don't give her alot of bones she can swallow whole any more.

Beef ribs are also great - they don't eat the bones but get a wonderful teeth workout.

it doesn't hurt a dog to have food removed, especially with small dogs who still need big pieces of meat. My big dog understands "leave it" but Snorkels does not. 

What someone suggested here was to distract her with something she likes more. So while I tempt her with a piece of liver or something else, I swipe the meat with the other hand. Or sometime we just have a tug of war. it allows her to have a really good workout on a large piece of meat. Very good for jaw strength and head/neck muscles.

Boneless, I just cut up for her.

Yes, I cut turkey necks all the time. I cut off about four inches for Snorkels and give the big end to my larger dog. Although what I do is slice them all around with a knife, then try to break the bone at the joint so there isn't a sharp end, rather than just cut through it willy nilly. I'm not much into cutting up bones into jagged pieces; I try to give them whole.

duck necks are good, too.


----------



## Malika04 (May 14, 2012)

I just ordered from MPC.


Maybe we can compare orders?

I put the 10 lb chicken leg quarters in a trash bag and add another bag. I keep it in a crisper in the fridge. It lasts 3 days.


I also have chicken legs, boneless in the fridge. This will last 3 days.


----------



## Stinky (May 31, 2012)

xellil - do you measure and do calculations for the 80/10/10 ratios? I'm most concerned about that right now. My dog doesn't know the term "leave it" or similar but I can take meat away from him safely. It would not work with some of my others, though. I still haven't ordered any cases or from MPC yet, but I need to. 

Malika04 - I would like to compare orders, when I finally do place one. Depending on how much I can afford and how much shipping is vs delivery, I may wait for the delivery time later this month.
---
I am not sure yet what cuts I need to get. I'm wondering how much variety for species of animal is typically fed. Like for beef, do some people have beef as a main protein yet only feed heart meat? I would like order a case of it...but I'm not sure, maybe I should get it from MPC. I don't want to supplement with fish oil if I can help it, and their meat is grass fed. How much of the diet must be grassfed in order to have enough omega 3s? 

I'm bad, I've been giving my dog a little beef since I have yet to acquire any turkey. Very minor amounts, though he doesn't need much anyway. My others will not eat it and I don't know why. Is "shank" meat undesirable? I guess I could specify my "others" but I'm a bit concerned about the controversy of it. 

Off-topic section:
Well, here goes...let the flaming begin heh... I have two raccoons that were originally destined to be fur coats, research animals, or other similar fates. They were both - of course - born in captivity. One is an adult, the other a baby from this year. The baby lives in the house, but will join the adult when he is large enough to not fit through chainlink fencing. The enclosure is 240 square feet and 6 feet high, not a little dog crate or something (I've been to a licensed educational facility - essentially a small zoo - that keep many species in dog crates at all times, including a raccoon, arctic fox, and coyote; their cougar's cage was just a fraction of the size of my raccoon's cage). I will expand it when I have the funds. 

For those that might suggest they be rehabbed, I am not sure that it is legal and at this point, they are too tame to safely be returned to the wild. The legality would be due to the fact that they are genetically different (the adult is even white-bodied with a chocolate mask which is far from natural) and would alter the genetics of native wildlife. I think it is actually even illegal to trap a wild one and release it somewhere else. The state doesn't want people messing with native wildlife (not legal to possess), but captive bred are viewed differently and are allowed here. 

More on topic:
I hope to learn about raw to not only benefit my dog, but to benefit them as well. There is not a lot of information about raccoon diet in captivity, but the facilities I have asked often feed commercial dog food, as do many private owners. I don't think it's appropriate for any animal, domesticated or otherwise. Anyway, they won't eat the beef shank meat but they like chicken so far. The baby cannot eat bone yet (tiny teeth) so I am concerned about him not getting certain nutrients. Can you buy just pure ground bone? Would crushed eggshells be a suitable temporary replacement for bone until he is able to eat it himself? I guess I could get some whole ground up prey from MPC until he can eat bone. I am not sure how long that will be. Raccoon teeth grow in so slowly and I don't think they have the same jaw power as many canids have. I am not even sure if they should have beef since it's not something they would naturally eat. 

I'm thankful dogs are carnivores as omnivores are so much more challenging to feed.


----------



## creek817 (Feb 18, 2012)

I apologize, as I really don't know a lot about raccoons and what they should eat, but I have to say...

PICTURES PLEASE!!! Especially baby raccoon! Actually, they both sound freaking adorable! =)


----------



## creek817 (Feb 18, 2012)

I just did a google search for raccoon diet.

From Wikipedia, so taken with a grain of salt:
Diet
Though usually nocturnal, the raccoon is sometimes active in daylight to take advantage of available food sources.[82] Its diet consists of about 40% invertebrates, 33% plant material and 27% vertebrates.[83] Since its diet consists of such a variety of different foods, Zeveloff argues the raccoon "may well be one of the world's most omnivorous animals".[84] While its diet in spring and early summer consists mostly of insects, worms, and other animals already available early in the year, it prefers fruits and nuts, such as acorns and walnuts, which emerge in late summer and autumn, and represent a rich calorie source for building up fat needed for winter.[85] They eat active or large prey, such as birds and mammals, only occasionally, since they prefer prey that is easier to catch, specifically fish and amphibians.[86] Bird nests (eggs and hatchlings) are frequently preyed on, and small birds are often helpless to defend against the attacking raccoon.[87] When food is plentiful, raccoons can develop strong individual preferences for specific foods.[88] In the northern parts of their range, raccoons go into a winter rest, reducing their activity drastically as long as a permanent snow cover makes searching for food impossible.[89]

Sounds like fish would be really good, and insects, worms, fruits, berries, nuts. I imagine eggs would be really good for them too. Could give venison, or beef, or things like that occasionally, but sounds like maybe it shouldn't be a staple.

Hope that helps, even a little.

My parents have a 90 year old neighbor who has had two raccoons in her life, I will ask her what she fed them - but she feeds her dogs kibble, so it wouldn't surprise me if they weren't fed a species appropriate diet either.


----------



## Stinky (May 31, 2012)

Thank you for the interest. I love talking about my raccoons. I've been getting advice from other exotic/native animal keepers on diet (some have raccoon experience and some don't). The insects are recommended but it's not easy (at least as far as I know) to provide a variety. And I admit, they really gross me out. Fish, fruit, nuts, and eggs are the easy parts. Mice, rats, and small birds are ideal animals to feed but not necessarily practical. I know they would get some chicken since they raid coops. 

One person who has a website somewhere about their raccoon which they fed dog food with raw chicken, fruits, and vegetables and the **** made it to 18 years I think it was. That's better than what most people do. Some just feed dog food. Unfortunately most wildlife in captivity do not get actual species-appropriate diets, even zoo animals. I have heard some zoos refrain from feeding raw meats because it will supposedly bother guests. 

I am not sure how important it is for the diet to match the wild diet. As omnivores, they are able to survive on many things. In the wild, they often only live a few years. I wish there was more information on ideal raccoon diet and what nutrients they need. There are some studies for foxes since they are bred in fur farms so frequently. There's a popular pet fox diet with ground beef as the staple. 

My camera is not so good, sorry for the poor quality.
My big guy with his wonky in-between-seasons coat:

























My little guy:


----------



## creek817 (Feb 18, 2012)

i think I am in love with the baby one. Holy cow that is CUTE! Both are adorable =)

I would think that mice and rats wouldn't be too hard to find - maybe look at places that provide snake food? And you're right, because they're omnivores, it should be pretty easy to feed them I would think. It amazes me how many of these places that should know better feed non-species appropriate diets. It's ridiculous. I feel terribly that it's taken me till I'm 25 to realize that I wasn't doing what was best for my dogs by feeding kibble. But, when you have wild animals, you would think one would take the time to figure out what they should be eating.

Sorry, rant. haha. But, I would say food should be pretty easy to find for them. Fresh fruits and veggies, you can probably share your own food with them for the most part. Nuts are easy, mice and rats shouldn't be too hard, chicken is easy.....That sounds like a pretty balanced diet to me. And hopefully yours can live a nice long happy healthy life as well!

Where do you live?


----------



## Nana52 (Apr 28, 2012)

I have not a single helpful suggestion, but I want to say your raccoons are just darling! There are a lot of species-appropriate-food smarties here. I'm sure you'll get help with regard to feeding them what they need.


----------



## Stinky (May 31, 2012)

The baby is named Stinky (where my username came from) though he does not smell. I always give my animals strange names it seem. I have thought about breeding mice and rats since it costs so much to buy them for food. It is unfortunate that so many captive wild species are fed on dog or cat food. It seems to work, maybe it is okay with other foods added to the diet for some, but certainly not ideal - not even for a dog. I am in Iowa.

Nana52 - Thank you  They are wonderful animals, so misunderstood. Clean, intelligent, interactive, and fun.


----------

