# Leaving well enough, alone?



## meggels (May 30, 2010)

So with Abbie and raw and kibble, I'm wondering if some dogs, for whatever reason (genetics, environment, etc), just do well on the premium kibbles and can THRIVE for their lives? 


Should we sometimes just leave well enough alone?

Abbie was having a hard time with the transition, and it was hard to see her having loose stools, or too hard of stools, when she really enjoyed her premium kibbles before, and did amazing on them. She had perfect shiny soft coat, perfect stools, great weight and muscular body condition, and there really wasn't a reason for me to try to switch her. 


She's back on a kibble, Acana, and I feel it's probably best to just leave well enough alone. I still give her cooked whole meats when I'm cooking, but I don't feel comfortable transitioning her when she was just doing so well before, and then having to see her struggle. The vet was impressed with how great and healthy she looked at her wellness exam in March, so I'm happy with how she is doing health wise. 


Does anyone else have a dog that just did so extraordinarily well on kibbles (whether it's premium or grocery store brand or the mid grade kibbles) that they felt it was better to just have the dog do well on that than perhaps strive to do the BEST (ideally)?


----------



## Scarlett_O' (May 19, 2011)

You only allowed it a few days. 
That is not near enough time to see how she would look when truly thriving. 

You have been around on this, and other, forums long enough to see enough of us raw feeders say it takes a minimum of a few months to start seeing the true changes when going from processed to raw. 

As for the rest of your questions.....I won't get into them because they ooze pot stirring.


----------



## meggels (May 30, 2010)

Scarlett_O' said:


> You only allowed it a few days.
> That is not near enough time to see how she would look when truly thriving.
> 
> You have been around on this, and other, forums long enough to see enough of us raw feeders say it takes a minimum of a few months to start seeing the true changes when going from processed to raw.
> ...



They were honest questions for people that have perhaps had similar situations/results


----------



## Kat (Jul 12, 2011)

I agree with Scarlett O, it takes some time to see the benefits of switching to raw. When I first switched Ruby her eyes were goopy, her ears were needing to be cleaned literally every day they kept getting so dirty, and she had a funky dog smell a few times from the kibble detox. After about 3 months it all stopped, her ears are clean, her eyes are clear, and she smells good. 

With the poop thing, once I knew how much bone Ruby needed I adjusted it, in the beginning with going bone heavy for the transition, there were times when the poop was so hard she would have to stand up with the poop still half out, take a break from squatting, and then go again to get it out. It did worry me in the beginning, but after introing more proteins and getting further into the transition, her poo became for consistent. Now feeding 4 bone in meals a week is perfect for her.


----------



## pgiven (Nov 4, 2011)

meggels said:


> Does anyone else have a dog that just did so extraordinarily well on kibbles (whether it's premium or grocery store brand or the mid grade kibbles) that they felt it was better to just have the dog do well on that than perhaps strive to do the BEST (ideally)?


You mean like literally 99% of people who own dogs?

You've tried a ton of dog foods, if acana works- keep feeding it, if it doesn't- stop feeding it.


----------



## Scarlett_O' (May 19, 2011)

pgiven said:


> You mean like literally 99% of people who own dogs?


HAHAHA, I would LOVE for you, or anyone, to back up that claim with some good solid evidence!


No living being is made to live off of processed foods.


----------



## pgiven (Nov 4, 2011)

....what are you talking about?

She is talking about a dog owner's perceived opinion. 



> that they felt it was better to just have the dog do well on that than


Yes. Plenty of dog owners (particularly those that buy their food at say, pet smart) think their dogs are doing GREAT on it and couldn't be doing any better. Just because they are ignorant, doesn't change my answer. 

You need to simmer down and READ the post.


----------



## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

pgiven said:


> ....what are you talking about?
> 
> She is talking about a dog owner's perceived opinion.
> 
> ...


It sounded like you said 99% of dogs did great on dry food - I was sitting her pondering your post as to the true meaning when Scarlett replied.

And I agree. Most people think their dogs are doing fine, when they could be doing so much better. However, raw food is not a quick fix and a few meals will not cause a WOW moment except in a few cases, like my dogs.

Raw feeding is a process, and normally not a short one.


----------



## meggels (May 30, 2010)

Kat said:


> I agree with Scarlett O, it takes some time to see the benefits of switching to raw. When I first switched Ruby her eyes were goopy, her ears were needing to be cleaned literally every day they kept getting so dirty, and she had a funky dog smell a few times from the kibble detox. After about 3 months it all stopped, her ears are clean, her eyes are clear, and she smells good.
> 
> With the poop thing, once I knew how much bone Ruby needed I adjusted it, in the beginning with going bone heavy for the transition, there were times when the poop was so hard she would have to stand up with the poop still half out, take a break from squatting, and then go again to get it out. It did worry me in the beginning, but after introing more proteins and getting further into the transition, her poo became for consistent. Now feeding 4 bone in meals a week is perfect for her.


Thing is though, she didn't have any symptoms before the switch. No goopy eyes, no infected ears, no smelly coat. 

Pgiven- I'm someone who obsessively watches my dogs every change, she definitely does well on kibble. I get compliments on her physical condition all the time lol.


----------



## pgiven (Nov 4, 2011)

meggels said:


> Pgiven- I'm someone who obsessively watches my dogs every change, she definitely does well on kibble. I get compliments on her physical condition all the time lol.


So stop messing with her digestive system and stay on one food. It really is that simple.

That being said, you'll find that if you keep her on one food (kibble OR raw) that this forum will become less and less necessary for you. Maybe that's why you keep changing foods.


----------



## pgiven (Nov 4, 2011)

xellil said:


> Most people think their dogs are doing fine, *when they could be doing so much better.*





> However, raw food is not a quick fix and a few meals will not cause a WOW moment except in a few cases, *like my dogs.*


There are a "few" cases where dogs are doing just as well on kibble as they would be on raw, too. 

2 of our dogs are on kibble. 1 is on raw. It happens. All dogs are different.


----------



## meggels (May 30, 2010)

pgiven said:


> So stop messing with her digestive system and stay on one food. It really is that simple.
> 
> That being said, you'll find that if you keep her on one food (kibble OR raw) that this forum will become less and less necessary for you. Maybe that's why you keep changing foods.



Hmmm? I didn't actually need any advice on this...just was looking to chat about it with others who might have had similar experiences. 

Abbie has been on kibble her entire life, and goes through a rotation of kibbles to give her variety, her digestive system is fine, unless her good poops mean otherwise lol.

I'm not really sure why you were under the impression that she's constantly changing foods or something. A lot of members, including myself, come here just to chat about dog food or nutrition, not necessarily just if we are having problems...


----------



## Kat (Jul 12, 2011)

I used to be a person who thought raw? no way would i never feed that to my dog! When I first got Ruby as a puppy I said "i will never feed anything but dog food to her, no table scraps or anything, because dog food is the best thing for her".

Until it started making her sick, then I started researching and was still opposed to raw so I tried home cooking. It was too time consuming and I wasnt seeing the results I had hoped for. Raw was my last resort.

Now, it makes so much sense to me. Yes, dogs can live off of kibble, but from seeing how Ruby is on her raw diet, I personally dont think dogs THRIVE off of kibble. Its like a person who eats mcdonalds every day for their lives, you wont die right away, but its not doing any good for your body. 
It makes sense to me now to feed my dog the diet she was born to eat. 

Now, I still feed my cats pet food, they were never able to make the switch to raw so I stopped trying to get them to eat it. As I have said before, I have nothing against people who feed their pets pet food, I only have 1 friend in person who feeds raw like I do, all the other pet owners I know feed kibble, and I dont go preaching to them about switching, yes I will ask if they have ever considered raw - but Im not going to push it on them or make them feel bad for feeding kibble.

But, if someone wants to try raw, I think give it a little while for the transition to start progressing before throwing in the towel. 

And people on this forum (both raw and kibble) are educated with pet nutrition and know that brands like hills, iams, royal canin etc. are not quality foods, but there are still a lot of naive people out there who dont look at the ingredients on the pet food and just buy it because its cheap. I constantly see people buying kibbles and bits from the grocery store which just kills me inside, I dont know how someone doesnt realize that kibble doesnt need artificial colouring and just because a commercial says a dog loves it and its good for them is the reason they feed it.


----------



## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

pgiven said:


> There are a "few" cases where dogs are doing just as well on kibble as they would be on raw, too.
> 
> 2 of our dogs are on kibble. 1 is on raw. It happens. All dogs are different.


I think the vast majority of dogs probably do ok on dry food when they are younger. Some dogs will live long healthy lives on dry food. But I think its more likely that as time passes, some of these problems will start to crop up. 

We accept as normal arthritis, heart and kidney problems, tooth decay, etc, - all attributed to the aging process. Vets have even told me it's normal. I don't believe that any more, as I have actually seen "aging" related diseases reversed or improved in both my dogs.


----------



## pgiven (Nov 4, 2011)

meggels said:


> Abbie has been on kibble her entire life, and goes through a rotation of kibbles to give her variety, her digestive system is fine





> i'm not really sure why you were under the impression that she's constantly changing foods or something


Well, first, those two things don't go together. Rotational diet is pretty much synonymous with constantly changing foods. 

Keep in mind, i'm not trying to give you a hard time, but your posting history gives me the impression that you change foods constantly. So I gave you the advice that if acana is working for her, to feed her acana. Pretty simple. If you really wanted to leave "well enough alone" that would be the answer. If you want to keep changing foods, you aren't leaving well enough alone. Sorry if i'm coming across as brash, the post just doesn't make much sense to me.

http://dogfoodchat.com/forum/raw-feeding/16535-whats-next.html
http://dogfoodchat.com/forum/dry-canned-dog-food/16094-why-price-difference.html#post199623
http://dogfoodchat.com/forum/dry-canned-dog-food/14909-rotation-list.html#post182222
http://dogfoodchat.com/forum/dry-canned-dog-food/12366-what-kibble.html
http://dogfoodchat.com/forum/dry-canned-dog-food/11935-brothers-dog-food.html


----------



## pgiven (Nov 4, 2011)

xellil said:


> Some dogs will live long healthy lives on dry food. But I think its more likely that as time passes, some of these problems will start to crop up.





> We accept as normal arthritis, heart and kidney problems, tooth decay, etc, - all attributed to the aging process. Vets have even told me it's normal. I don't believe that any more, as I have actually seen "aging" related diseases reversed or improved in both my dogs.


Sounds like you are convinced then! Your dogs will (continue to) lead happy lives, i'm sure.


----------



## BearMurphy (Feb 29, 2012)

in my opinion, you would see that she does better on raw if you let her get through the transition. if you are not up for dealing with the transition (as we have seen on the board it can get rough at times) maybe it is better for you to put her back on kibble. i would still give her some bone in stuff as a substitute for a meal when you can for dental benefits

if it matters, I thought murphy did well on fromm because I didn't know he could be better off until I saw how he changed eating raw. on kibble, people always said what a shiny coat he had and he never had doggy smell, but he was skinny, his teeth had tartar, and his coat was thin. On raw, he has filled out quite a bit because he is digesting more of his food (i feel like he could never eat enough calories to fill out on kibble), his teeth are soo much better, and his coat is super thick. i also know that I am preventing possible liver and kidney issues down the line that are caused by the concentrated meat meals found in kibble not to mention the made in china vitamins, etc, etc


----------



## meggels (May 30, 2010)

pgiven said:


> Well, first, those two things don't go together. Rotational diet is pretty much synonymous with constantly changing foods.
> 
> Keep in mind, i'm not trying to give you a hard time, but your posting history gives me the impression that you change foods constantly. So I gave you the advice that if acana is working for her, to feed her acana. Pretty simple. If you really wanted to leave "well enough alone" that would be the answer. If you want to keep changing foods, you aren't leaving well enough alone. Sorry if i'm coming across as brash, the post just doesn't make much sense to me.
> 
> ...



I stick within the same companies that I trust, but she does get new foods each bag. I personally don't believe in feeding the SAME food for their whole life, unless of course they only do well on one food and get digestive upset (which she doesn't). I think it's a nice change for kibble fed dogs to get new proteins. 


You seem to misunderstood what I was referring to when I said to leave well enough alone...I meant to keep them on kibble if they are doing wonderful on it, not to just give them one kibble for the rest of their life.


----------



## DaViking (Sep 27, 2011)

claims claims claims. Claims are cheap, just ask the millions and millions of kibble feeders, you'll get claims galore.

@meggles; I second what pgiven said. Do one last round with all the formulas he did well on in the past. Evaluate all aspects/results and settle on one formula. Maybe use the time spent looking for food on some new activity you both like? Doesn't mean you can't hang around here shooting the breeze or discuss with xellil :smile:
You know where to find me if you want or need any advice or help.


----------



## meggels (May 30, 2010)

DaViking said:


> claims claims claims.
> 
> @meggles; I second what pgiven said. Do one last round with all the formulas he did well on in the past. Evaluate all aspects/results and settle on one formula. Maybe use the time spent looking for food on some new activity you both like? Doesn't mean you can't hang around here shooting the breeze or discuss with xellil :smile:
> You know where to find me if you want or need any advice or help.



I dunno sir, I personally just don't really believe feeding ONE food to a dog, if they do well on variety, which she does  

I like shootin the breeze and talkin bout dog foods though, heck, it's what I get paid to do on the weekends


----------



## pgiven (Nov 4, 2011)

meggels said:


> I dunno sir, I personally just don't really believe feeding ONE food to a dog


Since you do love discussing dog food, I guess i'll just ask "why?".

I mean, you say it's a belief, something you strongly feel. Why is that? Other than human boredom, do you believe that your dog notices the variety in kibble?

Raw is a different story. Different textures, different muscles, etc. But, kibble? Do you think she is noticing something different between Ranchlands and Pacifica? Genuinely curious.

I suppose you make the argument that you don't want to put all of your eggs in one basket. You don't want to trust just one company should there be a recall. Is that it?

edit: If your dog is doing great on one food, and you are HAPPY with her performance, coat, vet checks, etc. Why change? It's an interesting question.


----------



## Caty M (Aug 13, 2010)

I don't feed kibble, but I do think it's fine, even beneficial, to give variety. Even though all kibbles may be "perfectly balanced" in the eyes of AAFCO, different meats DO provide different nutrients in different amounts, so I can't see any negative in doing a rotation diet unless the dog is extremely sensitive or something. It's also nice to switch brands in case of a recall, so you don't have to do a long drawn out switch, and aren't loyal to any one brand.


----------



## Kat (Jul 12, 2011)

pgiven said:


> Since you do love discussing dog food, I guess i'll just ask "why?".
> 
> I mean, you say it's a belief, something you strongly feel. Why is that? Other than human boredom, *do you believe that your dog notices the variety in kibble?
> 
> ...



Even if the dog cant taste the difference in different kibbles (which no one would know unless they personally tasted different kibbles to see if there is a flavour difference) I think its more about feeding a variety of proteins to prevent any protein allergies which can develop if a dog eats the same thing for a long time.


----------



## pgiven (Nov 4, 2011)

Kat said:


> Even if the dog cant taste the difference in different kibbles (which no one would know unless they personally tasted different kibbles to see if there is a flavour difference) I think its more about feeding a variety of proteins to prevent any protein allergies which can develop if a dog eats the same thing for a long time.


You can also stumble onto a protein that your dog is WILDLY allergic to. This happens. Often.


----------



## Caty M (Aug 13, 2010)

pgiven said:


> You can also stumble onto a protein that your dog is WILDLY allergic to. This happens. Often.


Of course you can.. and know to avoid the food in the future.


----------



## meggels (May 30, 2010)

pgiven said:


> Since you do love discussing dog food, I guess i'll just ask "why?".
> 
> I mean, you say it's a belief, something you strongly feel. Why is that? Other than human boredom, do you believe that your dog notices the variety in kibble?
> 
> ...



I notice just from feeding that different kibbles have different smells. My thought would be that they probably also taste different (I'm not looking to test this one personally though lol). As much as I love the smell of certain foods, and taste, I still don't want to eat them every day, for years, and I don't really expect my dog too. Could she maybe eat one kibble and never get sick of it? Maybe. But I think different tastes and smells are probably a treat for her.


----------



## Makovach (Jan 24, 2012)

pgiven said:


> You can also stumble onto a protein that your dog is WILDLY allergic to. This happens. Often.


You can do this with raw as well. You can do it with vaccines, medications, hw pills, flea drops or tablets. The possibility for allergic reactions is endless.

As far as kibble being fine, thats your choice. I do agree that raw takes 3+ months to get to the good parts. But it comes down with what you are willing to put up with and what you personally can handle. And with switching up kibbles, I think its fine. I personally wouldn't go to the extremes and would probably stick to one brand/variety. But thats just me.


----------



## Jacksons Mom (Jun 13, 2010)

Jackson does very well on kibble. Nope, I've never tried PMR or raw (besides premade) but I don't really have a desire to. He has a great shiny soft coat, non goopy eyes, great stools, no ear/yeasty problems, or any other infections, no dry skin, the list goes on and on. He's in great shape.

I will say every time I try to switch, either thinking I'm doing something better or just me being wish washy with my choices, I always go back to what works (Acana in our case). I think I read too much and think too much about it. My dog lives a fantastic healthy life and thrives on Acana kibble, and I also will give him wet food and an egg here or there, or pieces of meat when I'm cooking, etc. I'm not too worried about. He leads a really great life and I give him the best that I can and what works for us.


----------



## Jacksons Mom (Jun 13, 2010)

pgiven said:


> Since you do love discussing dog food, I guess i'll just ask "why?".
> 
> I mean, you say it's a belief, something you strongly feel. Why is that? Other than human boredom, do you believe that your dog notices the variety in kibble?
> 
> Raw is a different story. Different textures, different muscles, etc. But, kibble? Do you think she is noticing something different between Ranchlands and Pacifica? Genuinely curious.


My dog absolutely notices a difference. He has never eaten any fish flavored food _except _Pacifica. He puts his nose up or spits it out. I tried to feed a bag of Precise recently and he would not touch it. Returned it and put Acana back in his bowl and he went to town. Of course he always enjoys bad kibbles too. I have to keep him away from dogs dishes when we visit friends homes, etc. I swear there is doggy crack in those Beneful's, etc. Smaller kibble, he tends to spit out too. He definitely has a preference for larger sized kibble.


----------



## PDXdogmom (Jun 30, 2010)

Randomly and frequently switching from one kibble to another month after month is not true rotation feeding. . . it's a continual search.

Well-constructed rotation feeding is trying a specific kibble exclusively for a minimum of 3 months (5 is better) and then assess how well your dog is doing overall: energy, weight, coat, teeth, ears, etc. 
Then, try a 2nd kibble to feed exclusively for a few months and assess that one. If it's also something your dog thrives on, you now have two different kibbles to rotate back and forth with. Add a third if you like.

I think rotation feeding can help balance out the highs and lows of vitamin/mineral mixes in the kibble; plus provide protein variety.

However, I think finding one basic kibble your dog does well with and then adding a rotation of fresh foods from you own kitchen is probably just as viable and probably more so.


----------



## DaViking (Sep 27, 2011)

There is no need for rotation feeding. If you want to give your dog different flavors and mix up the proteins the best thing is to find interchangeable formulas from the same manufacturer. These formulas contain the same functional ingredients, minerals and vitamins, etc. all at the same levels. Foods with completely different profiles takes a long time to evaluate and dogs take a long time to adapt fully. 12 weeks to see the digestibility and acceptance by an individual dog, then you can start to evaluate the effects of a particular formula at 20 weeks. Ppl can say that their pooch have an iron stomach but that doesn't mean optimal or even good digestibility.


----------



## Celt (Dec 27, 2010)

pgiven said:


> If your dog is doing great on one food, and you are HAPPY with her performance, coat, vet checks, etc. Why change? It's an interesting question.


I'm a very strong believer in feeding a variety of foods. I have always fed as many different foods as I can. It is my belief that dogs can develop "delicate/sensitive" digestive systems if they are not given a variety of foods. Kibble may not have different textures (although that is iffy, nowadays), but most brands have different "recipes". If kibble didn't have some kind of variety to them, then it wouldn't really matter which one you fed because they would all have the same results. Personally, I rotate on a nearly daily basis. My pups very seldomly get the same food for more than a couple of days in a row. Hades, my pups are unlikely to get food from the same brand for more than a couple of days in a row. Right now, my pups are eating premade raw (nature's variety instinct: lamb or rabbit, at the moment), pmr raw (chicken necks, calf liver, brisket/roast, ground beef for the most part), and kibble (Bil-Jac, for the most part at the moment, and free samples). They can easily go from eating one to the other without any digestive problems. I feel that feeding this way, makes it easy (especially in an emergency situtation), to feed my pups because whatever I throw at them, they'll be able to eat without me having to worry about it causing any kind of "upsets".


----------



## Jacksons Mom (Jun 13, 2010)

Also, I think it's a little far fetched to say that eating ANY kibble is comparable to McDonald's.

Not to mention how we've changed dogs so much from wolves that I'm not sure I even buy into it being the BEST for every dog. Yes biologically I know they are essentially the same. I do believe dogs are carnivores but I do not think it's fair to claim that ALL dogs will thrive on raw and not kibble or "death nuggets" as I've seen them called. According to the co-evolution theory, dogs have evolved alongside us from wolves... in other words, they were turned from wolves into dogs by selection pressures. Wolves are not dogs and dogs are not wolves. Selective breeding does a lot of funny things and I see no reason not to believe that some things have changed internally. Certain breeds are predisposed to such things as pancreatitis (Schanuzers, Yorkies, etc), some to other health issues. Sibes and GSDs are often known for somewhat sensitive stomachs. I also know that wolves were not being fed the way that most raw feeders feed their dog... they obviously weren't given meat from the grocery store that is most likely pumped full of steroids and antibiotics anyways, but surely not as much time was being put into their meals. They weren't taken to the vet when things go wrong, they weren't sleeping indoors, or given the best possible care, or given antibiotics when infections set in, etc, etc, etc. Medical care for pets is a pretty new invention, too, but I'm certainly not going to reject it in a time of need. If our dogs were out in the wild, nature really could care less about anything living a long and healthy life... it's all about survival of the fittest and if you don't make it, oh well.

Yes, kibble is a pretty new "invention" and dogs lived very well without it, but I highly doubt these dogs were eating PMR or the way we feed raw today. Humans that were probably living on hardly anything themselves were surely not giving up all their good food to the dogs... they got scraps (of anything from corn mush and other grains) to whatever they could hunt themselves. 

I'm not in any way saying feeding raw is bad. I think a lot of dogs do fantastic on it and that's GREAT. I love the idea of feeding raw and I'm happy it works so great for so many dogs. But I don't get the hate on kibble. Bottom line is that all dogs are individuals, and yes certain breeds are predisposed to things that others may not be, and what one dog may thrive on another may not... I think it's ignorant to think raw is the answer for every single dog on this planet.

There is just way too many variables out there to say that "my dog lived a longer and healthier life eating x food" or "my dog died because of eating y food". So many other factors come into play. There are going to be raw fed dogs that die young and there are going to be kibble fed dogs that live a long time (and a healthy life at that) and vice versa. Obviously it's up to us as dog owners to decide what is best for our dogs and what works best for THEM. We clearly all love our dogs very much here on this forum and I see nothing wrong with discussing different foods, etc.

This was kind of more of a rant than anything and more than I wanted to say, but /end rant. Take it for what you will.


----------



## DaViking (Sep 27, 2011)

Celt said:


> I'm a very strong believer in feeding a variety of foods. I have always fed as many different foods as I can. It is my belief that dogs can develop "delicate/sensitive" digestive systems if they are not given a variety of foods. Kibble may not have different textures (although that is iffy, nowadays), but most brands have different "recipes". If kibble didn't have some kind of variety to them, then it wouldn't really matter which one you fed because they would all have the same results. Personally, I rotate on a nearly daily basis. My pups very seldomly get the same food for more than a couple of days in a row. Hades, my pups are unlikely to get food from the same brand for more than a couple of days in a row. Right now, my pups are eating premade raw (nature's variety instinct: lamb or rabbit, at the moment), pmr raw (chicken necks, calf liver, brisket/roast, ground beef for the most part), and kibble (Bil-Jac, for the most part at the moment, and free samples). They can easily go from eating one to the other without any digestive problems. I feel that feeding this way, makes it easy (especially in an emergency situtation), to feed my pups because whatever I throw at them, they'll be able to eat without me having to worry about it causing any kind of "upsets".


You are not really rotating in this sense. By doing it this way your dogs never loose the bacteria cultures built up to handle your various ingredients. Your dogs digestive system doesn't "see" any difference between your mix and any given kibble formula. If you introduced independently a new kibble with for example both MOS and FOS you would most likely see "upsets" Then you'r dogs will have to go through a period with anything but optimal digestion. They will all be fine (unless they have underlying issues) but nutrient uptake will suffer.

The best thing is to do as PDXdogmom suggested, work towards finding the optimal formula and supplement with whatever makes sense. Be honest in this process and try not to fall for marketing hype or popular opinions.


----------



## Jacksons Mom (Jun 13, 2010)

PDXdogmom said:


> Randomly and frequently switching from one kibble to another month after month is not true rotation feeding. . . it's a continual search.
> 
> Well-constructed rotation feeding is trying a specific kibble exclusively for a minimum of 3 months (5 is better) and then assess how well your dog is doing overall: energy, weight, coat, teeth, ears, etc.
> Then, try a 2nd kibble to feed exclusively for a few months and assess that one. If it's also something your dog thrives on, you now have two different kibbles to rotate back and forth with. Add a third if you like.
> ...


I agree! I went through this... continually searching for a new food, trying to find something "better" or more new or whatever. But overall he's been eating a rotation of different Acana formulas since he was a little over 1 years old. It's just what he does best on. We had a four month (or maybe five) period where he was eating lower protein/lower fat foods after a possible pancreatitis issue and I preferred how he looked on Acana, so we went back to it. It really wouldn't have been a huge deal to most.. the issues were fairly minimal, but it's something I noticed. But had he been on those foods his whole life for some reason... he wouldn't be deprived or living a horrible unhealthy life or anything either.


----------



## Caty M (Aug 13, 2010)

I dunno, I "rotate" proteins on raw, so I would if I fed kibble, also. Raw proteins are generally different daily, or at least every other day, and yes I do realize that one raw meal is not a complete "diet" like a kibble meal would be but still. I don't see any DOWNSIDE to rotating.. there may (or may not be) a benefit, but if she wants to do it, she's not hurting her dog. The main thing to me would be manufacturers- if something like the Diamond recall happened again, you already have foods your dog is used to eating.


----------



## DaViking (Sep 27, 2011)

Caty M said:


> I don't see any DOWNSIDE to rotating.. there may (or may not be) a benefit, but if she wants to do it, she's not hurting her dog.


Probably not hurting the dog but rotating completely different formulas say every 8 weeks results in a dog that is in a constant state of adapting. Nutrient uptake will suffer and the results will be accordingly. The dog will never become all it can be and the formula never have a chance to show what it can do. Raw feeding is different, it doesn't take 8 weeks until the next serving of the same protein and enzymes.


----------



## Dude and Bucks Mamma (May 14, 2011)

I guess I just don't understand why anyone would want to pump their dogs full of processed foods every day when every living thing is meant to eat natural, healthy, whole foods. Man cannot outdo nature.


----------



## kady05 (Jul 29, 2011)

Dude and Bucks Mamma said:


> I guess I just don't understand why anyone would want to pump their dogs full of processed foods every day when every living thing is meant to eat natural, healthy, whole foods. Man cannot outdo nature.


Meh, that's debatable. I think Jacksons Mom nailed it with her post up there. The vast majority of raw feeders (myself included) feed grocery store meats that everyone knows are pumped full of grains, antibiotics, live in god knows what conditions, etc. So "healthy" is a relative term. If I could afford to feed all grass fed, free range meats, I would! But I can't, so off to the grocery store I go.

Granted, two of my dogs do much better on raw than they ever did on kibble (and I had tried many different brands). Therefore, I'll continue feeding them raw. Wilson however, did not. He got to the point where he was throwing up bile every night. While yes, I'm sure a lot of it had to do with my scheduled feeding, I wouldn't consider puking nightly as "thriving". So I added kibble back in, and poof, he's fine. Now he gets 50/50 raw & kibble, does great. 

I'm definitely not a snobby raw feeder, and I can't stand raw feeders who are. Raw doesn't work for every dog, neither does kibble. Raw DOES take more time and not everyone has that time. You can screw raw up and have a sick dog on your hands. I just hate the whole "Raw or nothing" mentality. It's no wonder raw feeders have a bad reputation with some!


----------



## meggels (May 30, 2010)

DaViking said:


> Probably not hurting the dog but rotating completely different formulas say every 8 weeks results in a dog that is in a constant state of adapting. Nutrient uptake will suffer and the results will be accordingly. The dog will never become all it can be and the formula never have a chance to show what it can do. Raw feeding is different, it doesn't take 8 weeks until the next serving of the same protein and enzymes.




Do you have any proof of this? 

You know I think you are awesome and incredibly knowledgeable lol, but that last statement just seems a little "stretched" to me... :wink:


----------



## Caty M (Aug 13, 2010)

What about then, buying say... four small bags of food and rotating daily?


----------



## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

It is illegal to put steroids into meat bought at the grocery store. I hope no one is under the impression that kibble meat is any better and in most foods it's alot worse. Or that if you feed raw you are buying meat from grocery stores. 


No matter how much we wish it to be different the digestuve tract of a dog and a wolf is the same.I don't care about the sameness and it has nothing to do with why I no longer feed kibbe.

I hope Jackson lives to be 25 and dies in his sleep but if he has had pancreatitis issues he's not been perfectly healthy his whole life.


----------



## Sprocket (Oct 4, 2011)

kady05 said:


> Meh, that's debatable. I think Jacksons Mom nailed it with her post up there. The vast majority of raw feeders (myself included)* feed grocery store meats that everyone knows are pumped full of grains, antibiotics, live in god knows what conditions, etc.* So "healthy" is a relative term. If I could afford to feed all grass fed, free range meats, I would! But I can't, so off to the grocery store I go.
> 
> Granted, two of my dogs do much better on raw than they ever did on kibble (and I had tried many different brands). Therefore, I'll continue feeding them raw. Wilson however, did not. He got to the point where he was throwing up bile every night. While yes, I'm sure a lot of it had to do with my scheduled feeding, I wouldn't consider puking nightly as "thriving". So I added kibble back in, and poof, he's fine. Now he gets 50/50 raw & kibble, does great.
> 
> I'm definitely not a snobby raw feeder, and I can't stand raw feeders who are. Raw doesn't work for every dog, neither does kibble. Raw DOES take more time and not everyone has that time. You can screw raw up and have a sick dog on your hands. I just hate the whole "Raw or nothing" mentality. It's no wonder raw feeders have a bad reputation with some!



To the bold. 

HONESTLY, what do you think goes into kibble?


----------



## kady05 (Jul 29, 2011)

xellil said:


> It is illegal to put steroids into meat bought at the grocery store. I hope no one is under the impression that kibble meat is any better and in most foods it's alot worse. Or that if you feed raw you are buying meat from grocery stores.


I didn't say steroids, I said antibiotics  And just about every raw feeder I know feeds the vast majority of their meat from grocery stores. I mean yeah, I just got 80lbs. of venison from someone, so that's great, but that's not a year round thing.


----------



## kady05 (Jul 29, 2011)

Sprocket said:


> To the bold.
> 
> HONESTLY, what do you think goes into kibble?


Oh I know, I never said kibble was perfect. But I'm also not going to go to the extreme and call it doom nuggets, or tell people that feed it that they're terrible dog owners that are killing their dogs slowly.


----------



## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

kady05 said:


> I didn't say steroids, I said antibiotics  And just about every raw feeder I know feeds the vast majority of their meat from grocery stores. I mean yeah, I just got 80lbs. of venison from someone, so that's great, but that's not a year round thing.


Jackson's Mom said steroids.


----------



## kady05 (Jul 29, 2011)

xellil said:


> Jackson's Mom said steroids.


Oh sorry, I figured you were talking to me since you mentioned the grocery store thing as well. Carry on!


----------



## Sprocket (Oct 4, 2011)

Jacksons Mom said:


> I also know that wolves were not being fed the way that most raw feeders feed their dog... they obviously weren't given meat from the grocery store that is most likely pumped full of steroids and antibiotics anyways, l.





kady05 said:


> Meh, that's debatable. I think Jacksons Mom nailed it with her post up there. The vast majority of raw feeders (myself included) feed grocery store meats that everyone knows are pumped full of grains, antibiotics, live in god knows what conditions, etc. So "healthy" is a relative term. If I could afford to feed all grass fed, free range meats, I would! But I can't, so off to the grocery store I go.





kady05 said:


> Oh I know, I never said kibble was perfect. But I'm also not going to go to the extreme and call it doom nuggets, or tell people that feed it that they're terrible dog owners that are killing their dogs slowly.


Those quote above need to stop. They don't help your point at all. 

Does ANYONE see what goes into kibble? NO. Its the garbage, the excess, the left overs! Nothing like the wild roaming bison on the package.:suspicious:

Can you SEE grocery store meat? Uh YES. We always state that feeding your dog mass produced chicken from the store is not superior to high quality kibble because it lacks certain omegas.

I personally have nothing against high quality kibble. What I DO NOT like is flip floppers, liar and false statements.


----------



## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

kady05 said:


> Oh I know, I never said kibble was perfect. But I'm also not going to go to the extreme and call it doom nuggets, or tell people that feed it that they're terrible dog owners that are killing their dogs slowly.


Who here is doing that? I've never used the term doom nuggets or crapple. Why bring up stuff that hasn't even been said except by you and Jackson's Mom? I've never told anyone they are terrible dog owners or killing their dogs slowly, nor has anyone else here.

Meg started raw in June and raved about it. Then, a month later, it's been a total failure for her. I don't carry what ANYONE here feeds their dogs. I just wish people wouldn't make up stuff out of thin air or throw around crap that's inflammatory when there's no reason for it.


----------



## meggels (May 30, 2010)

Huh? Who is throwing around stuff that is inflammatory except for the few cute passive aggressive remarks by some people???


----------



## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

meggels said:


> Huh? Who is throwing around stuff that is inflammatory except for the few cute passive aggressive remarks by some people???


this is the most passive aggressive remark that's been posted in this thread. And so typical.


----------



## meggels (May 30, 2010)

Of course it is lol.


----------



## Dude and Bucks Mamma (May 14, 2011)

kady05 said:


> Meh, that's debatable. I think Jacksons Mom nailed it with her post up there. The vast majority of raw feeders (myself included) feed grocery store meats that everyone knows are pumped full of grains, antibiotics, live in god knows what conditions, etc. So "healthy" is a relative term. If I could afford to feed all grass fed, free range meats, I would! But I can't, so off to the grocery store I go.
> 
> Granted, two of my dogs do much better on raw than they ever did on kibble (and I had tried many different brands). Therefore, I'll continue feeding them raw. Wilson however, did not. He got to the point where he was throwing up bile every night. While yes, I'm sure a lot of it had to do with my scheduled feeding, I wouldn't consider puking nightly as "thriving". So I added kibble back in, and poof, he's fine. Now he gets 50/50 raw & kibble, does great.
> 
> I'm definitely not a snobby raw feeder, and I can't stand raw feeders who are. Raw doesn't work for every dog, neither does kibble. Raw DOES take more time and not everyone has that time. You can screw raw up and have a sick dog on your hands. I just hate the whole "Raw or nothing" mentality. It's no wonder raw feeders have a bad reputation with some!


Not really. I, personally, don't consider grocery store meat to be "natural" because it can be full of unnatural things. I do everything I can do get meat from other sources (privately owned, grass fed animals/hunters/etc). Is it ALWAYS possible? No. Not until Nick is out of the Navy and we can raise our own animals for meat but it is definitely possible to get the majority of their food from somewhere other than the grocery store. 

And I don't understand why feeding them grocery store meat would be a bad thing considering the fact that the sick, dead, dying, and disabled animals form the same place the grocery store meat is coming from is going into kibble in addition to the leftovers from what we buy from the grocery stores.


----------



## Caty M (Aug 13, 2010)

Thread closed. It's going no where productive.


----------

