# Not a very good raw advocate.



## lovemydogsalways (Mar 4, 2012)

Shoot well I had a few more replies on that other board and let me just say I suck at being an advocate. I don't know what to say back to people that disagree. LOL Boo me. Anyone care to train me on good points that I can post. I know it is sad, but I have never been a good debater.
It's like I know what to say, but just can't seem to make it sound smart or to trump this quote below.


> For what it's worth, the veterinarian I work with is completely against feeding raw. I mean, it's true that the closest genetic ancestor to today's dog is the grey wolf. However, the wolves that our dogs and the wolves we're used to seeing now came from much smaller, more fox-like looking wolves.. and there's a ton of evidence that suggests that these wolves weren't actually even hunters - they were scavengers. Even when wolves do make a big kill, the first thing they almost always eat are the stomach contents of the animal (which I'm positive won't contain meat). Anyway, all of this is to say that the whole raw food movement is based off of this idea that dogs are carnivores and should be eating raw meat, when in fact wolves and dogs are omnivores. They don't need an all raw meat diet, and you really greatly run the risk of disease (for you and your dog) in using raw meat


----------



## Caty M (Aug 13, 2010)

Yes, dogs evolved from the grey wolf a long time ago, but as they were domesticated and selectively bred, they were chosen for their looks, behaviour and size, not their digestive system.. and as such, that never evolved. There is NO difference in their stomach or intestinal tract from a grey wolf. Just because a dog is fed an omnivorous diet, doesn't make it an omnivore. It makes it a carnivore eating an inappropriate diet.

There is plenty of evidence to suggest that with large kills, wolves actually do NOT go for the stomach contents first, as seen in the book from David Mech, Wolves: Behavior, Ecology, and Conservation. He is the "god" of wolf study.


> "Wolves usually tear into the body cavity of large prey and...consume the larger internal organs, such as lungs, heart, and liver. The large rumen [, which is one of the main stomach chambers in large ruminant herbivores,]...is usually punctured during removal and its contents spilled. The vegetation in the intestinal tract is of no interest to the wolves, but the stomach lining and intestinal wall are consumed, and their contents further strewn about the kill site." (pg.123, emphasis added)
> 
> "To grow and maintain their own bodies, wolves need to ingest all the major parts of their herbivorous prey, except the plants in the digestive system." (pg.124, emphasis added).


It's true that dogs, wolves and coyotes in the wild WILL eat some vegetable matter, but generally just berries which are sweet and taste good. There's evidence in their poop that it's not well digested as dogs generally lack the abilities to break down plant matter- they do not chew thoroughly, they have no salivary amylase, nor a long intestinal tract to break down plant matter. Everything about a dog says a carnivore, from their nose to the tip of their tail. Dogs will eat some plant matter if they are starving to death, but why feed our carnivores like that? They deserve the best, and that's meat. :wink:

At our local zoo, the wolves are fed a prey model raw diet consisting of meat, bone and organ. I feed my dogs the same way. If there was a major deficiency in their diet, they would have shown something by now.. but they are in great shape. Perfectly white teeth, shiny coat, lots of STABLE energy, never had a health problem in their life. Except to do bloodwork for titer values, neuter and in one case, stitches, they have never been to the vet.


----------



## brandypup (Jan 23, 2012)

Honestly I dont bother. I feed raw it works for me and my pets. It would probably bennefit otherss greatly but if they dont want to learn it so be it. I give them the information, if they dont care or dont want to im done with it. 
Probably not an advocate as well. I just do what is right for my pets.

the onnivoire remark shows you their mentallity.


----------



## Caty M (Aug 13, 2010)

Maybe you could mention that it's only the pet food companies and their puppets (some vets) that do the omnivore claim. The Smithsonian classifies them as carnivores.


----------



## Roo (Oct 17, 2010)

Myths About Raw: Do wolves eat stomach contents of prey?

The following quotations are taken from L. David Mech's 2003 book Wolves: Behavior, Ecology, and Conservation. Mech (and the others who contributed to this book) is considered the world's leading wolf biologist, and this book is a compilation of 350 collective years of research, experiments, and careful field observations. These quotes are taken from chapter 4, The Wolf as a Carnivore.

_"Wolves usually tear into the body cavity of large prey and...consume the larger internal organs, such as lungs, heart, and liver. The large rumen [, which is one of the main stomach chambers in large ruminant herbivores,]...is usually punctured during removal and its contents spilled. The vegetation in the intestinal tract is of no interest to the wolves, but the stomach lining and intestinal wall are consumed, and their contents further strewn about the kill site."_ (pg.123, emphasis added)

_"To grow and maintain their own bodies, wolves need to ingest all the major parts of their herbivorous prey, except the plants in the digestive system."_ (pg.124, emphasis added).

This next quote can be found on the hunting and meals page at Kerwood Wildlife Education Center.
_
"The wolf's diet consists mostly of muscle meat and fatty tissue from various animals. Heart, lung, liver, and other internal organs are eaten. Bones are crushed to get at the marrow, and bone fragments are eaten as well. Even hair and skin are sometimes consumed. The only part consistently ignored is the stomach and its contents. Although some vegetable matter is taken separately, particularly berries, Canis lupus doesn't seem to digest them very well."

From the mouths of the wolf experts themselves, who have observed countless numbers of kills: wolves do NOT eat the stomach contents of their large prey, and are carnivorous animals. Additionally, Neville Buck from the Howletts and Port Lympne Zoological Parks in Kent, England, notes that virtually no small carnivore (which includes varieties of cats, wolves, wild dogs) eat the intestinal contents of their large prey. The contents are spilled in the enclosures and are often rolled in by the animals, but very little is eaten (if any is eaten at all)."_

A member on a raw feeding forum spent the day at the International Wolf Center in Ely, MN. She observed the pack's eating habits and had this to say:

_"They feed whole prey to the pack. Typically white tail deer and beaver. The natural diet for wild wolves in this area is 60% deer, the rest beaver, moose, and small mammals. They do NOT eat the stomach contents. They shake it out and eat the stomach lining. The wolves can eat all parts except the stomach contents, but often will not eat the vertebrate or skull (but will eat the jaw bone). They can eat them, but they are more difficult to eat, so they will pick clean and might bury/cache for future in case of extreme hunger."_

Info from another raw feeder on dogs/wolves and carnivore/omnivore. . . 

_Science (not personal opinion) has classified dogs and wolves as carnivores due to their physical characteristics that make them physically different from omnivores or herbivores. The physical characteristics that dogs have of a carnivore explained well on another forum:

1. Carnivores have large mouths as they eat other animals. Omnivores/herbivores have smaller mouths.

2. Omnivores have flat teeth in the back of their mouths. This is used to crush and mash plant material. All plant material has each cell coated with cellulose. You must mash and crush this shell to extract nutrients from the plant. Humans have these flat teeth. Carnivores don't have flat teeth. They can't get through the cellulose to get to the nutrients. Carnivore teeth are designed to kill prey(front teeth) and to rip and tear meat and crush bones(back teeth).

3. When omnivores/herbivores chew, they move their lower jaw not only up and down but also sideways in order to crush the cellulose. Carnivores don't have the ability to move their lower jaw from side to side. Only up and down.

4. Omnivores/herbivores have an enzyme called amylase in their saliva and stomach juices. Amylase is used to digest plant material and digestion begins in the mouth for these animals. Carnivores don't have amylase in their saliva and very little in their stomach. They don't make the enzymes necessary for digesting plant material.

5. I don't know how to explain it with words but there is a difference in the way the lower jaw is hinged in omnivores/herbivores and carnivores. Feel your own jaw bone. It begins at the joint with the skull and goes down then angles toward the front. Carnivores jaws start at the skull and go straight toward the front.

6. Carnivores have very acidic stomach juices to kill bacteria on meats and to digest bones. Omnivores/herbivores have much less acidic stomach juices.

7. Omnivores/herbivores have relatively long intestinal tracts. Carbs must ferment in the gut for a long time during digestion. Carnivores being meat eaters have a very short intestinal tract in order to get the meat through the body quickly before it rots. With their short intestinal tract they are not able to have carbs in the intestines long enough to digest.

8. Omnivores/herbivores chew their food into a mush before they swallow it. Digestion in an omnivore begins in the mouth. Carnivores only rip, tear, and crunch their food until it is small enough to fit down their throat. They can fit some amazingly large pieces down their throat. Much larger than an omnivore is capable of._

Vet Dr. Karen Becker's explanation on why dogs and cats can eat raw meat.
Raw Meat Diet for Dogs and Cats - YouTube


----------



## Kat (Jul 12, 2011)

Caty M said:


> Maybe you could mention that it's only the pet food companies and their puppets (some vets) that do the omnivore claim. The Smithsonian classifies them as carnivores.


That's a really good point!


----------



## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

There was a thread recently with evidence proving that the wolves in Eastern Europe eat very little besides prey animals. That would be nice if that were added to the Myths site. Does anyone know the owner of that site?

Ask for the research showing that ancient wolves were scavengers and made no kills, since there is SO MUCH of it.

And the last sentence - "hey don't need an all raw meat diet, and you really greatly run the risk of disease (for you and your dog) in using raw meat" - that's ridiculous right now in light of the salmonella in dry food. And the recent aflatoxin. Ask how many people are in the hospital with salmonella from handling raw dog food.

I have seen the argument that we should just ignore the recent salmonella outbreak in dry food because it really doesn't mean much in the grand scheme of things - that raw is STILL what we should fear most. Of course, anyone can be an idiot. That's like insisting the moon is made of green cheese. Can't argue with that.


----------



## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

I'm going to say something else about Facebook. It is not conducive to logical argument and rebuttal like this place is. You can't quote the statement you disagree with - all you can do it say someone's name and then blah blah. 

If someone decides to flood a thread with a novel, it gets so long so fast it's hard to go back and find stuff. It's easy to miss stuff. There's not as much stuff on a single page, and it's not searchable. 

And there are several pages with this going on. And that's just the pages I am a member of - maybe there are a thousand more just like them.

I know there are raw food haters over there just going nuts. They could NEVER do that here. Never. 

Because when you spout lies, it's easy to get diarrhea of the mouth and blabber on for pages and pages. When you try to rebut with facts, it takes more time and thought.


----------



## lovemydogsalways (Mar 4, 2012)

See now why can't I do that? LOL maybe because I am to new to raw and have yet to start feeding it. 
The thread in my post is from another forum where we were talking about the Diamond recall. 
Brandypup, you are right, if they are not going to listen I can't force them to read up on it.  Bummer.


----------



## 7766 (Sep 20, 2011)

Caty M said:


> Maybe you could mention that it's only the pet food companies and their puppets (some vets) that do the omnivore claim. The Smithsonian classifies them as carnivores.


I don't want to hijack your post because I don't feed raw, although a part of me wants to and I don't have any advice for you. 

But I posted in the Dry section how Back to Basics made a statement on their bag dogs are Omnivores and it really bothered me. I feed kibble which I know contains non meat products, but it still doesn't make them omnivores.


----------



## naturalfeddogs (Jan 6, 2011)

Caty M said:


> Maybe you could mention that it's only the pet food companies and their puppets (some vets) that do the omnivore claim. The Smithsonian classifies them as carnivores.


I'm gonna remember that. Thats good.


----------



## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

i suppose the wolves in antarctica weren't really hunting and taking down prey.....must have been sheep in wolve's clothing? 

refer your board to the 'frozen planet' where they can see for themselves that wolves indeed hunt.

dogs are closely related to the wolf....and regardless of what they believe or don't believe, my stand would be that i don't understand how they don't understand that processed food is under a great deal of scrutiny, be it dogs or humans.

kibble is processed. it no longer looks as it did in nature. 
ergo, how can anyone feed processed food for a lifetime.

that's like feeding ensure as a main meal for life.


----------



## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

Re, weren't you the one who posted the study from Eastern Europe about the wolves? I swear, I need to start a website to grab all this good stuff. 

I'm going to try to contact the person who does the Myths website - it hasn't been updated in a long time and I'm afraid it will disappear. The article you found would be great for that place.


----------



## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

xellil said:


> Re, weren't you the one who posted the study from Eastern Europe about the wolves? I swear, I need to start a website to grab all this good stuff.
> 
> I'm going to try to contact the person who does the Myths website - it hasn't been updated in a long time and I'm afraid it will disappear. The article you found would be great for that place.


i found one about wolves in alaska and i found one from somewhere else...but i have dementia....so heck, i don't remember....


----------



## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

magicre said:


> i found one about wolves in alaska and i found one from somewhere else...but i have dementia....so heck, i don't remember....


I'll hunt for it - I dont' remember the Alaska one but this was the one in Lithuania or somewhere where they found older wolves had nothing in their stomachs but meat.

Between you and me, if we both remember half maybe we'll get the whole thing 

I emailed the address on that site - we'll see if they respond.


----------



## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

The website address is no good. I wonder how much of a violation of copyright it would be to copy all that stuff, just in case. I would hate to lose it.


----------



## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

what's the url?


----------



## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

The Many Myths of Raw Feeding


----------



## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

xellil said:


> I'll hunt for it - I dont' remember the Alaska one but this was the one in Lithuania or somewhere where they found older wolves had nothing in their stomachs but meat.
> 
> Between you and me, if we both remember half maybe we'll get the whole thing
> 
> I emailed the address on that site - we'll see if they respond.


rawfedmyths hasn't updated in a while.

i remember posting a link...but, for the life of me, can't find it....


----------



## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

lovemydogsalways said:


> Shoot well I had a few more replies on that other board and let me just say I suck at being an advocate. I don't know what to say back to people that disagree. LOL Boo me. Anyone care to train me on good points that I can post. I know it is sad, but I have never been a good debater.
> It's like I know what to say, but just can't seem to make it sound smart or to trump this quote below.


http://dogfoodchat.com/forum/dog-food-ingredients/2329-backed-scientific-study.html

lots of studies here......wade through and just copy/paste and post.  urls, that is.


----------



## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

magicre said:


> rawfedmyths hasn't updated in a while.
> 
> i remember posting a link...but, for the life of me, can't find it....


Actually, your citation was JUST posted on the thread that's close to the top now and of course I can't remember the title. It was in an Estonian journal.


----------



## KittyKat (Feb 11, 2011)

xellil said:


> Actually, your citation was JUST posted on the thread that's close to the top now and of course I can't remember the title. It was in an Estonian journal.


Zunna, Agrita. (2009) Food habits of the wolf Canis lupus in Latvia based on stomach analyses. Estonian Journal of Ecology. 58, 2, 141-–152.

My citation skills suck. lol.


----------



## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

KittyKat said:


> Zunna, Agrita. (2009) Food habits of the wolf Canis lupus in Latvia based on stomach analyses. Estonian Journal of Ecology. 58, 2, 141-–152.
> 
> My citation skills suck. lol.


Thank you! I can't see one thread when I'm in another. I gotta save that. THat's a great article.


----------



## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

it only took three minds. LOL

thanks. this was going to drive me nuts.


----------



## KittyKat (Feb 11, 2011)

I saved it on my computer as I thought it was interesting.


----------

