# Ground Raw



## Luke & Gracie's Mom (Jul 25, 2010)

Is feeding ground Raw the same as feeding whole Raw? Could I feed ground raw as the main diet and then give marrow bones and or pork ribs a couple times a week as a treat and to help their teeth? 

Just curious and thought I could get good advice here on this.

Thank you for all your help!


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## DaneMama (Jun 27, 2008)

Ground raw is certainly not ideal. It doesn't provide dental benefits. It allows more bacteria to infiltrate the meats. If you buy it someplace you have no idea of what is really in it or it has a bunch of crap that your dogs don't need. Typically it is pretty expensive compared to PMR style meats.

All that being said, you could give your dogs primarily ground and RMBs every once in a while to help with teeth and I'm sure they would be fine. Would I? No, because it is not as good as whole raw meats IMO.


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## Luke & Gracie's Mom (Jul 25, 2010)

danemama08 said:


> Ground raw is certainly not ideal. It doesn't provide dental benefits. It allows more bacteria to infiltrate the meats. If you buy it someplace you have no idea of what is really in it or it has a bunch of crap that your dogs don't need. Typically it is pretty expensive compared to PMR style meats.
> 
> All that being said, you could give your dogs primarily ground and RMBs every once in a while to help with teeth and I'm sure they would be fine. Would I? No, because it is not as good as whole raw meats IMO.


Hi Natalie-

I just sent Jon a private message with a list to look at. Maybe you guys can help me with that. Thanks so much!


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## DaneMama (Jun 27, 2008)

Can you send it to me as well please?


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## Luke & Gracie's Mom (Jul 25, 2010)

danemama08 said:


> Can you send it to me as well please?


Sure....I'll send it now.


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## DaneMama (Jun 27, 2008)

Thats a pretty good list of meats! Can I ask why you'd want to feed ground and not the whole form?

The only things I would stay away from personally are the blends....they don't have a breakdown of ingredients and their content.


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## Luke & Gracie's Mom (Jul 25, 2010)

danemama08 said:


> Thats a pretty good list of meats! Can I ask why you'd want to feed ground and not the whole form?
> 
> The only things I would stay away from personally are the blends....they don't have a breakdown of ingredients and their content.


I don't want to necessarily feed ground was just curious really about the differences. If you guys say whole is best then I will stick with whole. Just wondered if ground was just as good. Also, I am a freak about the whole raw in the house thing. I am able to feed outside now since it's summer but in the winter I will be worried about germs and mostly because of my kids. With ground it can just go in a bowl like kibble and they will eat it a bit neater.

That list that I sent to you is for whole and ground though. Would you guys be able to tell me what to get?


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## DaneMama (Jun 27, 2008)

What I would order:

Chicken- whole leg, quarters, frames, whole fryers, feet (good source of glucosamine)

Turkey- wing, leg, frame, whole, necks

Pork- heart, liver, kidney, spleen, pancreas (mostly because of the size of these organs because fowl organs are small and messy for large breed dogs and beef organs are TOO big. Pork organs seem to be the best size to deal with. For these, if your dogs WILL eat these happily I personally would get them ground just for ease of feeding)

Beef- heart, ribs if you can find them elsewhere

Rabbit- feeder rabbits

Rest of the fowl birds- pretty much it all would work.

With all this being said, these prices are at least twice what we pay. I personally would find a cheaper route, unless budget is not an issue. It would be great to order and get food from only one source, but we need to keep the bottom dollar in mind. We typically don't spend over $1 per pound for any of our meats except some game meats which we wont pay over $2 per pound for. Just for example, Walmart sells chicken quarters for ~.65 per pound which is .30 cheaper than this co op. Just food for thought. Hope this helps!


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## Luke & Gracie's Mom (Jul 25, 2010)

danemama08 said:


> What I would order:
> 
> Chicken- whole leg, quarters, frames, whole fryers, feet (good source of glucosamine)
> 
> ...


Thank you so much Natalie. Budget IS a HUGE issue for us so it really does matter. I am still waiting on a list from another meat distributor. They were supposed to call me back today but didn't. I will call them tomorrow. When I get the list and prices from them I will send that to you as well. I am not sure what is a good price and what is not since I am so new to this. I can not thank you enough for all of the help that you and Jon both are giving to me and continue to give. I hope I am not being a pain.


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## schtuffy (May 17, 2010)

Sorry if this is off topic and that I am not contributing, as I am learning about raw myself, but I just wanted to say...you have birds too! That's awesome! :biggrin:


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## DaneMama (Jun 27, 2008)

Luke & Gracie's Mom said:


> Thank you so much Natalie. Budget IS a HUGE issue for us so it really does matter. I am still waiting on a list from another meat distributor. They were supposed to call me back today but didn't. I will call them tomorrow. When I get the list and prices from them I will send that to you as well. I am not sure what is a good price and what is not since I am so new to this. I can not thank you enough for all of the help that you and Jon both are giving to me and continue to give. I hope I am not being a pain.


Oh, Shannon...you couldn't be a pain if you tried! At least not with asking questions about raw! We are happy to give you our time and advice...its what we do here and over at DOL. We just thought it would be good to have you here to since there are others just as helpful here. And even the few newbies that have just recently gone through what you are now. What you don't realize is that we are training you to become a role model and mentor for the next "generation" of converts to raw!

Definitely send me the list. But here is a estimation of what we pay for our regular rotation meats just for an idea of what we pay:

Chicken- quarters .49-.65 per pound, backs/frames .35-.45 per pound, whole $1 per pound (I wouldn't EVER pay over $1 per pound for chicken)

Turkey- necks .65-.75 per pound, whole bird .25-.50 per pound (around holiday season so we stock up!), wings .65-.80 per pound

Beef- ribs .80-.90 per pound, heart .80-.90 per pound (only two things we buy in beef UNLESS there is an insane deal on ground- never over $1 though)

Pork- roast (butt or shoulder, bone in or boneless) .80-$1 per pound, ribs/riblets .80-$1 per pound, liver/kidney/heart .65-.75 per pound

Fish- whole tilapia .75-.95 per pound, sardines/smelts/scad 1.65-$2 per pound (for the cats almost exclusively), pollock fillets $1.20 per pound, canned fishes (mackarel, tuna, sardines) .50-$2 per can depending on which one...we usually wait for these to go on sale though.

Game- venison/elk $1-1.50 per pound, llama $1.50 per pound OR Free off of craigslist!!!

Also, here is a general list of places I would call or visit in person (better to do this) to find meat connections!

http://maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&u...roup&ct=more-results&resnum=1&ved=0CBwQtQMwAA



schtuffy said:


> Sorry if this is off topic and that I am not contributing, as I am learning about raw myself, but I just wanted to say...you have birds too! That's awesome! :biggrin:


Its perfectly fine with me that you post up completely off topic posts!!!


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## dobesgalore (Oct 21, 2009)

The only time we feed ground, is making little meat balls to put their omega3-6-9 capsules in. It hides them perfect, they don't even know they are there.


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## Luke & Gracie's Mom (Jul 25, 2010)

schtuffy said:


> Sorry if this is off topic and that I am not contributing, as I am learning about raw myself, but I just wanted to say...you have birds too! That's awesome! :biggrin:


That is awesome, I love that picture on your signature.


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## DestaRR (Jul 26, 2010)

I feed some ground but it's not too significant. Only makes up about 25% of their diet with the vast majority being raw meaty bones.


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## Luke & Gracie's Mom (Jul 25, 2010)

danemama08 said:


> Oh, Shannon...you couldn't be a pain if you tried! At least not with asking questions about raw! We are happy to give you our time and advice...its what we do here and over at DOL. We just thought it would be good to have you here to since there are others just as helpful here. And even the few newbies that have just recently gone through what you are now. What you don't realize is that we are training you to become a role model and mentor for the next "generation" of converts to raw!
> 
> Definitely send me the list. But here is a estimation of what we pay for our regular rotation meats just for an idea of what we pay:
> 
> ...


Natalie, thank you so much for such a large amount of information. You really give your time to here and boy oh boy do you have patience. I will call around to those vendors and see what their prices are and once I get that list from that other meat distributor I will send that to you as well. Thanks so much!!!


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

something i've watched happen in the six months we've been on raw....

two awkward dogs learned how to eat raw...and their neck muscles...are like body builders now...LOL

their jaws can tear through pieces of protein that they couldn't do before...

my pug's feet are so strong from standing on his food and holding it down...he couldn't do that before.

my pug doesn't hork anymore....he's learning how to eat without trying to swallow the food whole...

when i give ground, it's because i forgot about it and it's got a little freezer burn on it, so i don't eat it....but i make meatballs and freeze them...on a hot summers' day, it's a great treat....

it sounds as if you're afraid of the bones....they learn. they really do. believe me, if my pug who does NOT have the dentition for raw....can do it..anyone can...

and natalie? i can't get prices like you get...wow...even when i shop sales....i'm moving next door to you.


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## whiteleo (Sep 7, 2008)

Remember they want to move closer to us!


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## DaneMama (Jun 27, 2008)

Luke & Gracie's Mom said:


> Natalie, thank you so much for such a large amount of information. You really give your time to here and boy oh boy do you have patience. I will call around to those vendors and see what their prices are and once I get that list from that other meat distributor I will send that to you as well. Thanks so much!!!


Keep the questions coming :wink:


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## dobesgalore (Oct 21, 2009)

Luke & Gracie's Mom said:


> Natalie, thank you so much for such a large amount of information. You really give your time to here and boy oh boy do you have patience. I will call around to those vendors and see what their prices are and once I get that list from that other meat distributor I will send that to you as well. Thanks so much!!!


Yep, she's definantly got patience! She really loves to educate people on raw feeding and knows what she's talking about. :wink:


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

whiteleo said:


> Remember they want to move closer to us!


yeah, but denver is nice and look at the prices she's getting.....

i figure by the time i'm done with the next three orders, honey will be getting a second job.....


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## Luke & Gracie's Mom (Jul 25, 2010)

OK...yet another question. Is it possible to do this....

Primarily feed chicken, turkey, pork, and ground organs. Then only once in a while throw in something like a beef heart of pigs tongue or feet? I am really having some issues dealing with all of this meat. I went to the store last night and bought beef heart, beef liver, pork liver, pork tongue, chicken feet, chicken and pork gizzard, chicken liver, one case of turkey necks, and pigs feet. I seperated all of these appropriately in containers and put them in the freezer. I just am not liking dealing with all that variety. Sooo...now that I have it all (for now) can I just throw those things into the mix here and there but primarily feed chicken, turkey, and pork as their everyday, meals? Do I have to feed the same kind of meat each day or can I feed chicken in the morning and pork at night? Right now they are having chicken backs and necks for breakfast and chicken quarters de-fatted for dinner.

Additionally, it looks like they are losing weight especially the puppy while going through this process, is this normal?

I may have more questions but for now I am sure that will keep some of you busy...ha ha. I know I'm a pest but I appreciate ALL of the help, I really do.


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## whiteleo (Sep 7, 2008)

Right now you aren't going to have to worry about all that meat until your dog is used to the diet, slowly moving from one meat source to another makes for no unneeded diarreah. Stay with the chicken backs and quarters for awhile, then slowly add in a new meat source like turkey, then pork, then beef, fish, then organs. The puppy will be able to move faster in the diet than the older dog, but variety is key to a good prey model diet.


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## Luke & Gracie's Mom (Jul 25, 2010)

whiteleo said:


> Right now you aren't going to have to worry about all that meat until your dog is used to the diet, slowly moving from one meat source to another makes for no unneeded diarreah. Stay with the chicken backs and quarters for awhile, then slowly add in a new meat source like turkey, then pork, then beef, fish, then organs. The puppy will be able to move faster in the diet than the older dog, but variety is key to a good prey model diet.


I know that I am not in need of all of those meats at this time, just wanted to get stocked up sooner rather than be frantic about it later.

Ok...I am sticking with the chicken for now, and intend on introducing little by little other meats. Just was curious about if I could primarily feed the chicken, pork, and turkey and then throw organs in the mix occassionally and then maybe a fish once a week. I also bout 2 whole mackarel and 2 whole whiting last night and they are also in the freezer for them for later.


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## whiteleo (Sep 7, 2008)

Once the dogs are ready, fish is needed at least once a week, some dogs won't eat whole fish but maybe you won't have that problem, its important for the omega 3 fatty acids, Also, red meat preferably from grass fed sources are a good source of omega 3 fatty acids that dogs don't get from white meat.

Just don't make the mistake of only feeding white meat and no red meat sources, organs every few weeks when they are ready and fish once a week. Good Luck, off to work I go!


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## RawFedDogs (Jun 16, 2008)

Luke & Gracie's Mom said:


> Primarily feed chicken, turkey, pork, and ground organs.


I would add some beef ... beef heart is great and is not an organ, rather it's muscle and fat. I would also have some fish in the diet.



> Then only once in a while throw in something like a beef heart of pigs tongue or feet?


Beef heart is great. I feed it once a week. Pig tongue isn't bad but I don't think it adds much to the diet. Feet, I wouldn't bother with for meals. You MIGHT want to use them as treats but I don't.



> I am really having some issues dealing with all of this meat. I went to the store last night and bought beef heart, beef liver, pork liver, pork tongue, chicken feet, chicken and pork gizzard, chicken liver, one case of turkey necks, and pigs feet.


I owuld leave out all the feet and tongue. I would also eliminate the chicken gizzard. I didn't know there was such a thing as pork gizzard but I would leave it out, too. After you have been feeding for 4 or 5 months and have gotten into a comfortable routine, you can add whichever of those other things you want to and if you don't want to add them back, don't.



> I seperated all of these appropriately in containers and put them in the freezer. I just am not liking dealing with all that variety.


Variety is good but in the beginning while all is so new to you, I wouldn't bother with the things I mentioned above.



> Sooo...now that I have it all (for now) can I just throw those things into the mix here and there but primarily feed chicken, turkey, and pork as their everyday, meals?


If it were me, I would add beef heart once a week or so and some fish evey couple of weeks. Other than that, go with it.



> Do I have to feed the same kind of meat each day or can I feed chicken in the morning and pork at night?


I would be careful right now but in a couple of months you can mix and match however you want. I know some people will feed some ground beef or turkey and add a chicken back for bone. Thats not necessary but some do it.



> Right now they are having chicken backs and necks for breakfast and chicken quarters de-fatted for dinner.


Cool, my dogs will get that exact same thing about 3 or 4 days a week but I don't de-fat anything.



> Additionally, it looks like they are losing weight especially the puppy while going through this process, is this normal?


Some loose, some gain, some stay the same. I wouldn't be too concerned. In a couple of months after you have your routine worked out and they have adjusted, you can adjust volume to control weight. Often when dogs are switched they loose fat but gain muscle and they look thinner. As long as they don't get extremely thin or fat, don't worry about it for a month or so.


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## Luke & Gracie's Mom (Jul 25, 2010)

RawFedDogs said:


> I would add some beef ... beef heart is great and is not an organ, rather it's muscle and fat. I would also have some fish in the diet.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Thank you SO MUCH for all of the information. 

As for the "pork gizzard" I could be wrong I think it was chicken liver and chicken gizzard. I am so confused...ha ha!!!

Do you suggest I add anything new to them now?


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## DaneMama (Jun 27, 2008)

Aren't you glad you joined here?!

I wouldn't add anything else in for now. You really want to stay with bone in chicken for two weeks. Especially since your dogs were having diarrhea in the beginning. Just take things nice and slow.

And to answer your previous question, our dogs main protein sources are pork, chicken, turkey, beef and fish. It's perfectly fine to feed just turkey, chicken and pork most of the time.

Keep up the good work!


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## Luke & Gracie's Mom (Jul 25, 2010)

danemama08 said:


> Aren't you glad you joined here?!
> 
> I wouldn't add anything else in for now. You really want to stay with bone in chicken for two weeks. Especially since your dogs were having diarrhea in the beginning. Just take things nice and slow.
> 
> ...


I knew you'd come to the rescue Nat!!!!

Thanks a bunch. I suppose all of the stuff that I have bought and froze can be used down the line as little "extra's". As RawFedDogs said above...I am thinking of primarily feeding prok, turkey, and chicken. Then giving beef heart once a week, organs every two weeks, and fish every two weeks.

Does that sound ok? How about all the stuff that I bought last night, was that stuff appropriate?

As for "de-fatting" the chicken. How long should I continue this? I started it because of the cannon butt that the two of them were having.


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## DaneMama (Jun 27, 2008)

How is their cannon butt doing? If you are seeing normal stools you can start to taper cutting fat off. If still seeing soft poo go ahead and continue trimming and just keep an eye out for stool condition. 

All the stuff you bought sounds definitely appropriate but what I consider to be the "extras" to the diet. Remember that organs only should make up ~10% of the overall diet. We only feed organs once every two weeks as well, but some peope feed just a very little bit everyday. Either way is just fine. 

Sounds like you will be feeding almost the exact same routine that we do! Also keep in mind that red meats are considered the best and most appropriate for dogs to eat, so
maybe try and find a connection with a wild game processing place to get a hookup on venison and elk.


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## Luke & Gracie's Mom (Jul 25, 2010)

danemama08 said:


> How is their cannon butt doing? If you are seeing normal stools you can start to taper cutting fat off. If still seeing soft poo go ahead and continue trimming and just keep an eye out for stool condition.
> 
> All the stuff you bought sounds definitely appropriate but what I consider to be the "extras" to the diet. Remember that organs only should make up ~10% of the overall diet. We only feed organs once every two weeks as well, but some peope feed just a very little bit everyday. Either way is just fine.
> 
> ...


Their cannon but is no longer...YAY!!!! Ok, then I will start to taper off cutting the fat...it was a PITA anyway.

Since I am going to give the organs ground I really could do them either way.

As for Venison, my husband and our good friend hunt every year. If they don't get a buck they always come home with at least one doe. None of us like Venison and the firend that my husband hunts with knows how to butcher the deer, soooo that makes for TONS of venison for my guys come November!!!! WOO HOO!!!!!


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## DaneMama (Jun 27, 2008)

Wow...I'm jealous! Too bad you live so far away!


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## Luke & Gracie's Mom (Jul 25, 2010)

danemama08 said:


> Wow...I'm jealous! Too bad you live so far away!


I more jealous of YOU...you seem to have WAY better prices out there for your everyday meats then we could ever get here!!!!


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## Luke & Gracie's Mom (Jul 25, 2010)

Now see....this is where I start to really get confused. So many people have so many opinions on what you should and shouldn't feed. For the most part I do know at this point what to do FOR NOW. BUT, on a group I belong to I was just told that chicken backs & necks & quarters as the strict diet for now is NOT enough meat for the dogs. AHHHHHHHH someone PLEASE help me here!!! Are they not getting enough meat? Should I add more meat or something???


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## DaneMama (Jun 27, 2008)

Are you talking about DOL? 

I urge you to stay on bone in chicken for two weeks. This can be backs, quarters, thighs, etc. They are right that this isn't enough meat for a well adjusted dog on raw. BUT since your dogs are still VERY new to raw feeding you NEED to feed a lot more bone than a normal diet. Why? Bone firms stools up. If you were to lessen the amount of bone and increase the amount of meat at this point in the transition you WILL see loose stool/diarrhea.


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## RawFedDogs (Jun 16, 2008)

Luke & Gracie's Mom said:


> Now see....this is where I start to really get confused. So many people have so many opinions on what you should and shouldn't feed. For the most part I do know at this point what to do FOR NOW. BUT, on a group I belong to I was just told that chicken backs & necks & quarters as the strict diet for now is NOT enough meat for the dogs. AHHHHHHHH someone PLEASE help me here!!! Are they not getting enough meat? Should I add more meat or something???


I understand exactly what you are saying. There are raw feeders who have to do everything by the numbers. They swear by a 80-10-10 ratio of meat, bones and organs. Problem is, no one measures their own diet that close. You feed mostly meat, some bone, and some organs. Exact ratio's don't matter. If you don't measure the exact amount of nutrients in your diet, why do it for your dogs?

I've been feeding my dogs raw for 8 years. I NEVER pay attention to ratios. I feed chicken backs every morning. I feed chicken leg quarters about 3 evenings a week. I've been doing this all my raw feeding life and my dogs are healthy and show no signs of any nutritional deficiency.

80-10-10 is an arbitrary number someone came up with years ago. Like a lot of things, she said it, a couple of people repeated it and all of a sudden it became carved in stone. Baloney!!! This person took a few wild prey animals, cut them up, tried to debone them as well as she should. She then weighed the bones, organs, and everything that was left and came up with the ratios. As far as I know, no one else has attempted to verify these numbers. I can't remember for sure what animals she cut up. Seems like it was a deer, a goat, and a rabbit but I may be all wrong about that.

I have never paid any attention to the ratios and my dogs have not suffered from it. One of my Danes is 10 years old and after a blood workup a few weeks ago, the vet said she had the liver of a 3 year old.

Mostly meat, some bone, and some organs. A variety of animal parts from a variety of animals. If their poop is too soft, feed more bone. If their poop is white and powdery right out of the chute, feed less bone. If they are constipated, feed more organs. Feed pieces large enough that they can't swallow them whole. If the dog gets two fat feed less. IF the dog gets too thin, feed more. There ... thats all you need to know once you are through the adjustment period. This is not rocket science. It's feeding a dog. If you can feed your family, you can feed your dog. :smile: 

One more thing you need to understand ... you can interview 100 different raw feeders and you won't find any two who feed exactly the same way. The paragraph above tells you all the essentials. Everything else is what feels good to you and your dogs. In time you will get a routine worked out and all will run smoothly.


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## Luke & Gracie's Mom (Jul 25, 2010)

danemama08 said:


> Are you talking about DOL?
> 
> I urge you to stay on bone in chicken for two weeks. This can be backs, quarters, thighs, etc. They are right that this isn't enough meat for a well adjusted dog on raw. BUT since your dogs are still VERY new to raw feeding you NEED to feed a lot more bone than a normal diet. Why? Bone firms stools up. If you were to lessen the amount of bone and increase the amount of meat at this point in the transition you WILL see loose stool/diarrhea.


Ok...I will listen to what you are saying. No it actually wasn't on DOL it was on a yahoo group I belong to. I totally trust you Natalie that is why I posted this here. 

Should I be feeding Luke is whole 4lbs and Gracie her whole 1 1/4lbs a day now? Just split into two meals between the necks, backs, and quarters?


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## DaneMama (Jun 27, 2008)

How much are you giving them now?


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## Luke & Gracie's Mom (Jul 25, 2010)

danemama08 said:


> How much are you giving them now?


Not the full a,mount that's for sure.

Gracie gets one chicken back and about 3-4 necks in the morning and Luke get's 2 chicken backs and 3-4 necks in the morning.

Dinner, they each get one quarter and a few necks.


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## DaneMama (Jun 27, 2008)

Luke & Gracie's Mom said:


> Not the full a,mount that's for sure.
> 
> Gracie gets one chicken back and about 3-4 necks in the morning and Luke get's 2 chicken backs and 3-4 necks in the morning.
> 
> Dinner, they each get one quarter and a few necks.


Have you noticed them getting thinner over the past few days? Personally I wouldn't rush into feeding them huge mounts right off the bat. Gradually add more food in. For example, add in an extra chicken back to each meal per dog for a few days and see how it goes. If they are not having any problems go ahead and add a bit more in for the next couple of days. You need to find the amount that works for your dogs and the only real way to do that is by trial and error. Don't worry about the actual weight at this point, just keep mental notes on how much they eat and their body condition.


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## Luke & Gracie's Mom (Jul 25, 2010)

RawFedDogs said:


> I understand exactly what you are saying. There are raw feeders who have to do everything by the numbers. They swear by a 80-10-10 ratio of meat, bones and organs. Problem is, no one measures their own diet that close. You feed mostly meat, some bone, and some organs. Exact ratio's don't matter. If you don't measure the exact amount of nutrients in your diet, why do it for your dogs?
> 
> I've been feeding my dogs raw for 8 years. I NEVER pay attention to ratios. I feed chicken backs every morning. I feed chicken leg quarters about 3 evenings a week. I've been doing this all my raw feeding life and my dogs are healthy and show no signs of any nutritional deficiency.
> 
> ...


WOW...that was a mouth full and very well put!! I thank you so much for your advice!


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## Luke & Gracie's Mom (Jul 25, 2010)

danemama08 said:


> Have you noticed them getting thinner over the past few days? Personally I wouldn't rush into feeding them huge mounts right off the bat. Gradually add more food in. For example, add in an extra chicken back to each meal per dog for a few days and see how it goes. If they are not having any problems go ahead and add a bit more in for the next couple of days. You need to find the amount that works for your dogs and the only real way to do that is by trial and error. Don't worry about the actual weight at this point, just keep mental notes on how much they eat and their body condition.


Yes, I have noticed that they have lost weight. I posted that in another post on here earlier.


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

i saw your post...and saw the responses about feeding them quarters, not backs...

that was the advice i got, too....and i had to clean up cannon butt until i got to bill (rawfeddogs).....and then here and everyone helped so much.

some dogs don't have any problems...at all. give them a piece of whatever and they are glorious...

and then there are my dogs and your dogs and oops....the script needs to be tweaked.

this is so much more relaxed than reading posts about whether or not a ten year old deer head is fit to feed or how long can roadkill be on the side of the road before it becomes unsafe....

at the moment, the only thing i think you need is a martini, a deep breath, and probably a few more freezers LOL


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## Luke & Gracie's Mom (Jul 25, 2010)

magicre said:


> i saw your post...and saw the responses about feeding them quarters, not backs...
> 
> that was the advice i got, too....and i had to clean up cannon butt until i got to bill (rawfeddogs).....and then here and everyone helped so much.
> 
> ...


Well you're post made me smile...thanks


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## DaneMama (Jun 27, 2008)

Since you've noticed weight loss then I would gradually increase the amount of food becuase you're likely to get cannon butt dogs again if you give them so much so fast.


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## jdatwood (Apr 13, 2009)

Luke & Gracie's Mom said:


> No it actually wasn't on DOL it was on a yahoo group I belong to. I totally trust you Natalie that is why I posted this here.


Oh how I wish I'd found this site 3 1/2 years ago when I first started on raw. I had no idea what I was doing and the Yahoo groups were my only resource.

Looking back I'm not a fan of the yahoo groups. There's more experience and knowledge here in my opinion.

Like RFD said, we don't all feed the same way or have the exact same ideals. We do all follow a model of mostly meat, some bone, some organs. Some people dwell on the %'s, some people add things in (that I don't think are appropriate), some people just throw some meat at their dogs a couple of times a day and trust nature to balance things out (that's us :wink.

In the end I say pick one group you feel you trust the most and stick with their advice til you get firmly grounded in raw feeding yourself. Then once the dogs are FULLY adjusted you can decide whether you want to look into some of the alternative methods you've come across. :biggrin:


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## Luke & Gracie's Mom (Jul 25, 2010)

Hey everyone- Just wanted to give yet another update. Both Luke & Gracie are doing really well. They have pretty much adjusted and I have introduced them to some beef as well as small bits of liver. They are taking to all of it. Occassionally Luke will have a runny poop, Gracie's poo's have been very good and consistent. I am still "adjsuting" as neccessary i.e. bone versus meat. I am now NOT jumping on any and all that I see posted on the forums and or groups, I pretty much just read and take it all in and do my own thing. I am at the point now where I feel pretty confident that I know what I am doing but am also not afraid to ask (certain people) when I have a question to ask.

I took them both to the Vet for a check up, my vet was amazed at how Gracie's teeth look, they are sooooo white. (she had BAD tartar before RAW), also got a compliment on how soft and shiny LUke's coat is. We are so please with what is doing for our "kiddo's" so far.

OT: Natalie & Jon.....Luke is walking MUCH better, the cowhocking looks minimal now. The vet checked him thoroughly, Luke shows no signs of pain, Doctor felt his hips and maneuvered him a few ways and he feels as though all is well with Luke. No signs of PANO, HOD, or OCD. The Doctor said that he looks like a very healthy puppy and that his weight is perfect for his height and age. We are so happy....I was a terrible mess about that whole thing with his legs two weeks ago. I feel much better now. He also said that he has nothing against RAW at all and he thinks it is great since he even noticed the few changes already...i.e. Gracie's teeth. He said he does not feed RAW personally but thinks it IS a fine way to feed your pets. I was happy with that, better than some Vets that will lecture you FOREVER and I was definitely NOT wanting to hear all that. Some of the people I come across on here and other groups have nightmare stories about what they deal with at the Vet office because they feed RAW.

Ok...enough rambling. I just wanted to update you all. Have a great weekend!!!!


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

doesn't it make you feel all tingly inside? to just know that what you're doing is the way and the light?


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## DaneMama (Jun 27, 2008)

Shannon- thank you for the update! I'm so glad that things are going well so far! Keep up the good work!


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## Luke & Gracie's Mom (Jul 25, 2010)

I am having some issues and am in need of advice.

Gracie is still doing well with her stools however....Luke is not. He literally walks around the entire yard in a squat position and nothing comes out...when _something _does it is a smal squirt of diarrhea. It seems to me as if he is blocked up. Since we notice this on Sunday we have cut back on bone but that hasn't helped either. I am not sure what to do.


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## RawFedDogs (Jun 16, 2008)

Luke & Gracie's Mom said:


> I am having some issues and am in need of advice.
> 
> Gracie is still doing well with her stools however....Luke is not. He literally walks around the entire yard in a squat position and nothing comes out...when _something _does it is a smal squirt of diarrhea. It seems to me as if he is blocked up. Since we notice this on Sunday we have cut back on bone but that hasn't helped either. I am not sure what to do.


He's not blocked up. Don't cut back on bone, increase it. Bone acts as fiber in the diet and will get stuff pushed through. 

Cut out the liver for a while. Liver can cause diarrhea early in the diet. Actually if too much is fed, it can cause diarrhea late in the diet. :smile: 

Cut down on the size of meals. Feeding too much at one time can cause diarrhea. Feed an extra meal if you need to but not too much in one meal.

Trim the skin and fat from his food for a while until he gets firm again.

Exactly what are you feeding him now?


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## Luke & Gracie's Mom (Jul 25, 2010)

RawFedDogs said:


> He's not blocked up. Don't cut back on bone, increase it. Bone acts as fiber in the diet and will get stuff pushed through.
> 
> Cut out the liver for a while. Liver can cause diarrhea early in the diet. Actually if too much is fed, it can cause diarrhea late in the diet. :smile:
> 
> ...


This is exactly what he has been getting for about the past week or so...

3 chicken backs and 3-4 chicken necks for breakfast

Then at dinner I have been giving him about 2 - 2 1/2lbs of beef trimming that I got from the local butcher, there is some fat on them, I have also added a small amount of ground beef to this as well a couple days.

What do you suggest I do from here?

Thanks for your help.


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## DaneMama (Jun 27, 2008)

Cut out everything but bone in chicken. I think you've added way too much boneless, high fat meats in too early. You need to add these types of things in very slowly and gradually. Two and a half pounds is a LOT of boneless high fat meat for a newly switched dog, even for a well adjusted raw dog.

I suggest you feed chicken bone in and cleaned of all skin, fat and organs for at least two weeks. Then introduce bone in turkey gradually alternating with chicken for two weeks. Then add in bone in pork and alternating with chicken and turkey. You shouldn't feed a boneless meal for about a month.


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## RawFedDogs (Jun 16, 2008)

danemama08 said:


> Cut out everything but bone in chicken.


I agree with everything that Natalie said but I would also cut the volume some. I would try 2 chicken backs in the morning and 2 in the evening for a week or until he gets solid again. Then you can add in meatier chicken parts (bone-in) for the balance of the two weeks. I would freeze that butcher trimmings for a month or so. They are very high in fat and so is ground beef. Try some pork ribs or pork roast the 3rd week and see what happpens. After that, ask more questions and we will slowly add in different food. 

You can't rush the process. You see what happens when you do. :smile:


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## Luke & Gracie's Mom (Jul 25, 2010)

Ok...I can do this BUT...when I was just feeding such a small amount before and only chicken backs he got really thin.

Is it ok to feed 2 chicken backs and 2-3 chicken necks in the morning and then 1 chicken back and 1 quarter skinned for dinner? Although Gracie is doing well, should I also go back to this for her too?

I am sorry for driving you guys nuts with all of these questions.


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## DaneMama (Jun 27, 2008)

You're not driving us nuts! We're happy to help you through it all!

You can see how they do with two meals of chicken, but I think rfd and I are just talking a few days on a lower quantity of food. Then you can slowly add in more food. They won't be harmed to lose a bit of weight for just a few days if it can get them back on track!


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## Luke & Gracie's Mom (Jul 25, 2010)

danemama08 said:


> You're not driving us nuts! We're happy to help you through it all!
> 
> You can see how they do with two meals of chicken, but I think rfd and I are just talking a few days on a lower quantity of food. Then you can slowly add in more food. They won't be harmed to lose a bit of weight for just a few days if it can get them back on track!


Ok, so then just gice Luke 2 CB for breakfast and dinner for the next few days? No quarters and no necks? Also should I take the skin off?

Is Gracie ok eating her 1 1/4lb meals still. She seems to have adjusted fine.


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## DaneMama (Jun 27, 2008)

If Gracie is doing fine I see no need to change things for her.

With Luke I would start out slow, only chicken backs for the first few days and see if his stools improve. If/when they do I would gradually add in more food over the next week. It never hurts to remove all the excess fat and skin with a dog that is having diarrhea. Eventually you'd want to stop but again I would gradually cut less and less off as time goes on and you don't notice any more diarrhea.


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## RawFedDogs (Jun 16, 2008)

Luke & Gracie's Mom said:


> Is it ok to feed 2 chicken backs and 2-3 chicken necks in the morning and then 1 chicken back and 1 quarter skinned for dinner? Although Gracie is doing well, should I also go back to this for her too?


Natalie gave you great advice. The reason for lowering the volume is because one of the causes of diarrhea is feeding too much food at once. Lets keep the volume low for a few days until things get solid again. Then we can gradually get back to normal. If we take things nice and slow IF there is another problem, we will have some idea of what caused it.

If Gracie is doing good, keep doing what you are doing with her.



> I am sorry for driving you guys nuts with all of these questions.


I was nuts a long time before you got here. :smile:


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