# Grain Free = Higher meat content, or sack of potato?



## CorgiPaws

This kind of came about when I was looking at cat foods for the shelter kitties we adopted. I was looking at high quality grain free kibbles, as we of course want to put them on raw. 

We did end up picking a grain free kibble for the girls, but I was thinking, are grain free kibbles really worth it? Don't get me wrong, if the animal eating the food has a grain allergy, of course I think they are necessary and worth the hike up in price, but other than that, I don't find them to be much higher quality, and certainly not justified in price.

From what it looks like, they take out the rice and barley, and add in potato and sweet potato, which are equally as species inappropriate and unnecessary. Am I missing something? What makes a sack of potato worth $75?

To me, the higher the meat quantity, the better the kibble, and by the looks of it, grain free isn't any higher in meat content I listed the first ten ingredients of two grain inclusive kibbles, as well as two grain free kibbles.



Canidae ALS (grain inclusive)
Chicken meal
turkey meal
lamb meal
brown rice
white rice
rice bran
peas
potatoes
oatmeal
cracked pearled barley


Merrick Puppy Plate (grain inclusive)
Organic Chicken
Turkey Meal
Oatmeal
Duck
Chicken Meal
Whole Barley
Whole Brown Rice
Flax Seed
Canola Oil 
Freeze Dried Sweet Potatoes

Taste of the Wild Pacific Stream (grain free)
Salmon
ocean fish meal
sweet potatoes
potatoes
canola oil
salmon meal
smoked salmon
potato fiber
natural flavor
salt


Merrick BG Buffalo (grain free)
Buffalo Deboned
Chicken Meal
Potato Dehydrated
Turkey Meal
Canola Oil
Sweet Potato Dehydrated
Yeast Culture
Natural Dried Chicken Liver
Dicalcium Phosphate
Lysine


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## DaneMama

I have thought that for a while too...just haven't thought of saying anything about it.

What about protein differences? Where is the extra protein coming from because usually grain free foods are higher in protein...?


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## jdatwood

RFD should be able to accommodate you Linsey... It takes about 3 seconds to move a thread :biggrin:


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## CorgiPaws

danemama08 said:


> I have thought that for a while too...just haven't thought of saying anything about it.
> 
> What about protein differences? Where is the extra protein coming from because usually grain free foods are higher in protein...?


I'm thinking it comes from the potato? Not sure.


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## DaneMama

I looked up the nutritional information on potatoes and one large, russett I'm assuming, has about 7 grams of protein it it. But to me, that is still plant protein and is not as bioavailable to dogs/cats, but moreso than grains. So I guess taking that bit into consideration grain free kibbles are better. More protein, no matter the source is better than less protein I guess...in regards to kibble that is.


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## CorgiPaws

danemama08 said:


> I looked up the nutritional information on potatoes and one large, russett I'm assuming, has about 7 grams of protein it it. But to me, that is still plant protein and is not as bioavailable to dogs/cats, but moreso than grains. So I guess taking that bit into consideration grain free kibbles are better. More protein, no matter the source is better than less protein I guess...in regards to kibble that is.


Okay, fair shot, but would you say this ever so slight advantage is worth the price hike up? We're takling $20 more a bag sometimes. To me, not worth it. 


If a grain inclusive kibble has more meat content in it than a grain free one, I would consider it superior, even if the grain free food does have more plant based protein. 


The topic doesn't really apply to me so much being primarily a raw feeder, just throwing the thought out there as I was thinking about it this week.


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## Jem

Hey there...I might have missed something, but why wouldn't you feed your kitties raw like "The Kitah"? I know cats can be harder to switch, so maybe thats the reason...?


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## Todd

Linsey, you make a great point! Just because potatoes aren't grains don't mean they're any more species appropriate. I'm sure there are several grain-free kibbles out there that rely on potatoes to achieve high protein content. Here is how Dog Food Analysis dissects levels of meat content;

The first four ingredients in this food are all named meat products. The first two are meat inclusive of water content (about 80%) and once that is removed it is likely that these ingredients would be more accurately placed somewhat further down the ingredient list (ingredients are listed in order of weight). However, since it is followed by two meat meal ingredients, and a further meat meal ingredient, herring meal, sixth on the ingredient list. This, and strong macronutrient breakdown give very high confidence in the level of meat content of the food. (specific example from EVO) 

I would think that potatoes play a considerable role in protein content if it is listed in the top 4 ingredients or so, like this site says. The examples you listed may have more protein coming from potatoes than other grain-free foods. For example EVO here has potatoes, but not in first 4 ingredients. That's the measuring stick I would use. Also, in another thread someone's asks about Nature's Logic, which is a grainless, high protein food without potatoes, however it's overall meat content is still questionable. The first two ingreadients are meat products, however the second two are Montmorillonite (A group name for all clay minerals with an expanding structure, except vermiculite. The high-alumina end member of the montmorillonite group; it is grayish, pale red, or blue and has some replacement of aluminum ion by magnesium ion. Any mineral of the montmorillonite group) and brewers yeast. But i wouldn't think that those two things would really add a lot of protein content. I question the chicken fat being at the top of the list as well. That isn't bad, but shouldn't take the place of meat sources. So, overall, I think this is a good, but not great food. btw, if u want a list of the ingredients, i posted them on the official Natures Logic thread.


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## CorgiPaws

Jem said:


> Hey there...I might have missed something, but why wouldn't you feed your kitties raw like "The Kitah"? I know cats can be harder to switch, so maybe thats the reason...?


This is the exact reason they aren't on raw yet. They won't eat it. I was starting to transition them by hiding small amounts of ground meat in their food, but one of the cats might not work out (she was fine, but we are having to wash her mouth out twice a day for her gum disease, and since we started that, she has gotten incredibly aggressive with us... to an extreme, and I'm not sure we are experienced enough with cats to help her.) and the other has an URI right now, and is a kibble junkie, so the raw transition is on an ever so slight hold right now. But ultimately, yes, raw is our goal... whenever they decide to cooperate. lol


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## iiVI

Todd said:


> Lindsey, you make a great point! Just because potatoes aren't grains don't mean they're any more species appropriate. I'm sure there are several grain-free kibbles out there that rely on potatoes to achieve high protein content. Here is how Dog Food Analysis dissects levels of meat content;
> 
> The first four ingredients in this food are all named meat products. The first two are meat inclusive of water content (about 80%) and once that is removed it is likely that these ingredients would be more accurately placed somewhat further down the ingredient list (ingredients are listed in order of weight). However, since it is followed by two meat meal ingredients, and a further meat meal ingredient, herring meal, sixth on the ingredient list. This, and strong macronutrient breakdown give very high confidence in the level of meat content of the food. (specific example from EVO)
> 
> I would think that potatoes play a considerable role in protein content if it is listed in the top 4 ingredients or so, like this site says. The examples you listed may have more protein coming from potatoes than other grain-free foods. For example EVO here has potatoes, but not in first 4 ingredients. That's the measuring stick I would use. Also, in another thread someone's asks about Nature's Logic, which is a grainless, high protein food without potatoes, however it's overall meat content is still questionable. The first two ingreadients are meat products, however the second two are Montmorillonite (A group name for all clay minerals with an expanding structure, except vermiculite. The high-alumina end member of the montmorillonite group; it is grayish, pale red, or blue and has some replacement of aluminum ion by magnesium ion. Any mineral of the montmorillonite group) and brewers yeast. But i wouldn't think that those two things would really add a lot of protein content. I question the chicken fat being at the top of the list as well. That isn't bad, but shouldn't take the place of meat sources. So, overall, I think this is a good, but not great food. btw, if u want a list of the ingredients, i posted them on the official Natures Logic thread.


Some thoughts on high protein formulations. Look at this EVO formulation below: The Turkey and Chicken will have ~70% moisture content, Eggs will have ~75% moisture content and Potatoes will have ~80% moisture content. The Chicken Fat is actually lower in moisture (~10%). My point being like meats whoes moisture goes away, potatoes moisture goes away post process unless they are listed as dehydrated as an ingredient. I suspect their starches are acting as a binding agent for extrusion. There should be less of them than either poultry source post-cooking by mass. The same is not true with a grain.

Food for thought.

Ingredients:
*Turkey*, *chicken*, turkey meal, chicken meal, *potatoes*, herring meal, *chicken fat*, natural flavors, *egg*, apples, tomatoes, potassium chloride, carrots, vitamins, garlic, cottage cheese, minerals, alfalfa sprouts, ascorbic acid, dried chicory root, direct-fed microbials, vitamin E supplement, lecithin, rosemary extract.


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## Jordan S.

Well you only touched on a couple. And grain free has higher protein, for instance heres CORE Ocean, which is what Chocolate eats. 

Whitefish, Whitefish Meal, Salmon Meal, Menhaden Fish Meal, Potatoes, Dried Ground Potato, Canola Oil (preserved with mixed tocopherols, a natural source of Vitamin E), Pea Fiber, Tomato Pomace, Natural Fish Flavor, Flaxseed, Carrots, Sweet Potatoes, Kale, Broccoli, Spinach, Parsley, Apples, Blueberries, Vitamins & Minerals, Choline Chloride, Chicory Root Extract, Yucca Schidigera Extract, Glucosamine Hydrochloride, Chondroitin Sulfate, Dried Lactobacillus plantarum, Enterococcus faecium, Lactobacillus casei, Lactobacillus acidophilus Fermentation Products, Rosemary Extract.

Heres EVO which is in my rotation as Well

Turkey, Chicken, Turkey Meal, Chicken Meal, Potatoes, Herring Meal, Chicken Fat, Natural Flavors, Egg, Apples, Tomatoes, Potassium Chloride Carrots, Vitamins,Cottage Cheese, Minerals, Alfalfa Sprouts, Ascorbic Acid, Dried Chicory Root, Direct-Fed Microbials, Vitamin E Supplement, Lecithin, Rosemary Extract.


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## CorgiPaws

I don't know, I'm just not entirely sold on it being superior enough to justify the price tag. 
Potato is no better than rice in my book, and grain free foods don't necessarily have more meat content than their grain inclusive counterparts. 

Raw feeding is SO much less complicated than this kibble junk. lol:tongue:


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## ruckusluvr

I agree corgi.
i dont like feeding my dogs taters no more than i like feeding them rice!

i did chose grain free because we thought that maybe it would help with Ruckus badly cracked paw pads and dull coat.
months and months later.... it didnt help at all.


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## Unosmom

It depends on the food, not all grain free foods are meat based, such as Natural Balance which to me is a sack of potatoes. 
I look for at least a first named meat followed by named meat meal. Even with grain free kibble, something needs to be used as a binder to hold the kibble together, whether it be potato, grains, pea starch or tapioca.
As long as it doesent make up the bulk of the food, I dont think its that big of a deal, but I personally prefer to avoid grains, since it made my dog itchy and I noticed increase in ear infections during summer.
Something else I noticed is that the poos on grain free are very small and firm, not so on grainy foods.


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## Jordan S.

yeah natural balance is the one exception. It has way too much potato. 

EVO actually does has less carbs and more protein then grain-inclusive foods so thats why I prefer it for my dog.


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## 1605

Jordan S. said:


> yeah natural balance is the one exception. It has way too much potato.
> 
> EVO actually does has less carbs and more protein then grain-inclusive foods so thats why I prefer it for my dog.


Me too.

Zio has a wonderful shiny coat, is able to keep weight on, and is generally much healthier looking on EVO than he was on the stuff the trainer recommended.


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## NeMom1

*Reading an ingredient label*

I just wanted to clear something up about reading ingredient labels. According to AAFCO ingredients are to be listed "... being greater or equal to the next ingredient..." In theory, the 4th ingredient could only be 5% of the formula.

I've seen foods critisized because fat is high on the ingredient list. With chicken and chicken meal being #1 and #2. All this means is it is a high chicken diet. 

Look at the total crude fat content in the dog food. If it is 20%, then the "fat" ingredient (contributing 100% fat) can't be more than 20% of the formula. Since chicken and chicken meal contain fat, then it's more likely that the fat component is only 15-18% of the formula.

Egg is also added as a dry ingredient, too many quality safety issues with using liquid egg.

Just a little bit on ready an ingredient label, thought you might want to know.:smile:


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## Paws&Tails

Grain free doesn't necessarily mean a sack of potatoes added in place of grains (though some practically are, such as Natural Balance). Most grain free kibbles do have potatoes or sweet potatoes in place of rice, oatmeal etc. Potatoes are somewhat more digestible than rice and other grains. The main thing to look for is meat as the first ingredient. 
I think one of the best grain free kibbles is Acana's Grassland, Prairie Feast, and Pacifica.





CorgiPaws said:


> This is the exact reason they aren't on raw yet. They won't eat it. I was starting to transition them by hiding small amounts of ground meat in their food, but one of the cats might not work out (she was fine, but we are having to wash her mouth out twice a day for her gum disease, and since we started that, she has gotten incredibly aggressive with us... to an extreme, and I'm not sure we are experienced enough with cats to help her.) and the other has an URI right now, and is a kibble junkie, so the raw transition is on an ever so slight hold right now. But ultimately, yes, raw is our goal... whenever they decide to cooperate. lol



Some cats can be a pain to switch to raw. I know some cats can take up to a year or more before eating only raw. My Penny is proving to be a royal pain. The other two are kind of hestitant about it, but they're better about it then Penny is.


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## kisha8

*should i go grain free or not?*

hi,

im new to this forum. i'm getting my mini labradoodle puppy tomorrow and i'm very excited! i've been doing research on dog food and i can't make up my mind if i should go grain free or not. dog bar (the store i go to) sells mostly hollistic food, and they say "go grain free", as do many websites. however, my breeder says "dont go grain free until he's 12 mos. old because his stool will be very lose". however, she's giving him royal canin (which i'm planning on changing, slowly, as soon as he gets here)! so i don't know if i should rely on her advice regarding this matter. 

i found a great site for grading dog food: 

Grading Dog Food for Australian Labradoodles Manor Lake Australian Labradoodles Blog

using their parameters, i found that ACANA (grain free) and GREAT LIFE (which has grain&potato free and with grain versions of their food) are two good products. their main 5 ingredients are:

ACANA (grain free) - chicken meal, russet potato, deboned chicken, deboned walleye, whitefeash meal (and so on)

GREAT LIFE - freeze dried chicken, freeze dried chicken liver, freeze dried ground chicken neck, mxed high antioxidant berries, inulin, mixed baby sprouts (and so on)

should i definitely stick to great life because of the potato content in acana? they are both made with fresh natural ingredients, no artificial presertavives, omega 3 oils, and all the good stuff. 

thanks so much!


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## whiteleo

Most on here are going to steer you towards Acana because of who makes it and HOW they make it plus they only use all grass fed ingredients. I use Acana when I first get a dog in before switching over to a raw diet, it has proved to be the best of any food I've tried.


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## kisha8

Thanks!

Do you feed only raw? 

The only thing that concerns me about going grain free is what my breeder said about loose stool.. She said the pup might have loose poop. Does that happen to dogs in your experience?


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## whiteleo

If you do a slow switch over to the new food adding in say 25% new food to 75% old food and let the digestive system get used to that, if there isn't any loose stool then slowly increase the new food. There is a percentage of dogs that don't do well on a grain free diet but dogs are carnivores and shouldn't be eating dogfood that is full of fillers.

Also make sure you take your new puppy in for a wellness check when you get it as this will tell you that there are no underlying health issues. Good Luck and make sure you post up pictures.


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## kisha8

thanks so much!
i'll post pictures soon :smile:


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## RCTRIPLEFRESH5

kisha8 said:


> hi,
> 
> im new to this forum. i'm getting my mini labradoodle puppy tomorrow and i'm very excited! i've been doing research on dog food and i can't make up my mind if i should go grain free or not. dog bar (the store i go to) sells mostly hollistic food, and they say "go grain free", as do many websites. however, my breeder says "dont go grain free until he's 12 mos. old because his stool will be very lose". however, she's giving him royal canin (which i'm planning on changing, slowly, as soon as he gets here)! so i don't know if i should rely on her advice regarding this matter.
> 
> i found a great site for grading dog food:
> 
> Grading Dog Food for Australian Labradoodles Manor Lake Australian Labradoodles Blog
> 
> using their parameters, i found that ACANA (grain free) and GREAT LIFE (which has grain&potato free and with grain versions of their food) are two good products. their main 5 ingredients are:
> 
> ACANA (grain free) - chicken meal, russet potato, deboned chicken, deboned walleye, whitefeash meal (and so on)
> 
> GREAT LIFE - freeze dried chicken, freeze dried chicken liver, freeze dried ground chicken neck, mxed high antioxidant berries, inulin, mixed baby sprouts (and so on)
> 
> should i definitely stick to great life because of the potato content in acana? they are both made with fresh natural ingredients, no artificial presertavives, omega 3 oils, and all the good stuff.
> 
> thanks so much!


that great life looks awesome..no potaters.


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## kevin bradley

one point, and I'm not sure if its been made, guys...

Linsey makes some valid points. 

However, no food is going from 20% protein to 40+% protein from potatoes. I don't have the nutrient breakdown in front of me but I believe Potatoes are primarily carbs. 

I just think its pretty safe to say that there's probably at least SOME additional protein/meat in most of the grain free's.


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## Paws&Tails

kevin bradley said:


> one point, and I'm not sure if its been made, guys...
> 
> Linsey makes some valid points.
> 
> However, no food is going from 20% protein to 40+% protein from potatoes. I don't have the nutrient breakdown in front of me but I believe Potatoes are primarily carbs.
> 
> I just think its pretty safe to say that there's probably at least SOME additional protein/meat in most of the grain free's.


Very good point. 
Potatoes are mostly carbs.


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## CorgiPaws

kevin bradley said:


> However, no food is going from 20% protein to 40+% protein from potatoes.


And exactly how ideal is the 40% protein that makes is to stupendously awesome?
Bah, I guess there's a thread for that discussion...


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## Paws&Tails

CorgiPaws said:


> And exactly how ideal is the 40% protein that makes is to stupendously awesome?
> Bah, I guess there's a thread for that discussion...



Because that protein has to come from somewhere. It most likely comes from meat, meaning there may be a higher level of meat in grain free then in formulas with grains.


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## kevin bradley

CorgiPaws said:


> And exactly how ideal is the 40% protein that makes is to stupendously awesome?
> Bah, I guess there's a thread for that discussion...


Linsey,

I'm not saying the protein is awesome. hell, I don't know how great it is. 

I was just saying that filling the food w/ Potatoes wouldn't seem to me to be the solution for them to get higher protein numbers. 

I may be naive...or not following where we're going w/ this one, but I honestly think the grain free foods do have a bit more meat and protein. In some cases, quite a lot more. 

Now IS it as good as raw...the QUALITY of the protein?... an entirely different discussion as you said. I'm beginning to wonder myself if ANYTHING processed is real good for us --or-- our animals. 

I've begun to make conscious attempts to eat more REAL food and less processed food and I know I feel better when doing so. 

:biggrin:


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## CorgiPaws

kevin bradley said:


> I was just saying that filling the food w/ Potatoes wouldn't seem to me to be the solution for them to get higher protein numbers.


Oh of course not. But... why the super high protein numbers in the first place?



kevin bradley said:


> I may be naive...or not following where we're going w/ this one


I kind of have two trains of thought jumbling around on this one:
1. Is super high protein actually necessary? 
2. To get these super high protein amounts, we're using meat meals. Which to me are like a power bar, and not a proper "healthy meal" ingredient. When did a further processed, mystery food become more desirable than real meat? Because real meat has water? Well, meat meals have who knows what... you have NO idea how much of that meal is actually meat.


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## RCTRIPLEFRESH5

idk if this makes sense but ehres myview on why higher quality kibbles have more protein than lower protein kibbles or raw. we aall know that raw is 100 percent meat protein. we all know that 100 percent of that protein is what dogs need. also since its all useful, they need less of it, to thrive.

ok now lets go to low quality kibbles.
low quality kibbles dont care about or dogs, and so they are low percentage. also they are low percentage of 100 percent undigestable proteins.

ok now the big question. why do higher quality kibbles have higher protein eprcentages than raw. lets see how u guys feel about my explanation.

ok, so we all know kibble..no matter how high quality it is..will never be as good as raw. to make a 100 percent meat kibble would cost a FORTUNATE, and thered be no binders. my hypothesis is that, food companies start out with the same amount of veggies as the lower protein foods, so they already have around 20 percent protein....then they add more emat to that..to make the food higher quality. obviously the kibble isnt 100 percent meat as we said. so when uadd the more emat the protein goes to 40 percent. but only 20 of that is actually meat based and the rest is veggies.

idk if im making sense. im just bsing in between doing stats...but it makes sense to me really.


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## Ania's Mommy

I just want to make sure I'm understanding this correctly. :wink:

You are saying that dog food with a high quantity of meat has already maxed out the animal protein. And that anything over and above the protein percentage of actual meat is from plant mater.

Right?


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## RCTRIPLEFRESH5

Ania's Mommy said:


> I just want to make sure I'm understanding this correctly. :wink:
> 
> You are saying that dog food with a high quantity of meat has already maxed out the animal protein. And that anything over and above the protein percentage of actual meat is from plant mater.
> 
> Right?


idk my brain hurts. i think what im saying is that the reason its higher than raw is not because high protein is good, but because the unneeded plant matter used to drive down costs raises the levels.


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## V Crane

Has anyone associated deleterious effects with a dog diet including nightshades (potatoes)?


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## sassymaxmom

No, the reason kibble has a higher level of protein than raw meat is kibble has 10% water and raw meat has about 60-75% water content. Take away the water from raw meat and it is about the same protein content as those grain free super premium kibbles.


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## buddy97

no, grainless foods (at 35%-40% protein) didnt get to that protein level by switching grains for potatoes. potatoes wouldnt get them from 24% to 40% protein. there is simply more meat content. many of the higher protein foods state right on the bag what % of the protein content comes from animal sources (several state it at 80%)...its not from the potatoes. just because potato is third or fourth on an ingredient list doesnt make it equal in quantity to grains being in the same spots on a grain inclusive foods. the ratios of the meat ingredient at the top of the list have to be entirely different to achieve those higher protein contents.

true, some grainless foods like Natural Balance or a couple of the TOTW formulas (at 24% protein or less) likely have no more meat content than many grain inclusive foods. im confident, however, that foods like orijen, EVO, Instinct, etc.....do.


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## SamWu1

I've contacted the nutritional director at Champion and they claim that both Orijen and Acana uses just the bare minimal amounts of potato just to bind the product and they even won an award for having the lowest glycemic index of any kibble apparently. 

Great Life is also a good choice, they do use sweet potato but their primary binding agent is tapioca so it's regular potato free.


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## sassymaxmom

Fresh deboned chicken, chicken meal, turkey meal, *russet potato*, fresh deboned pacific salmon (a natural source of DHA and EPA), herring meal, [/B]*sweet potato, peas*, fresh deboned lake whitefish, fresh deboned northern walleye, chicken fat (naturally preserved with vitamin E and citric acid), chicken liver, salmon meal, fresh deboned turkey, fresh whole eggs, fresh deboned herring, *sun-cured alfalfa*, salmon oil, *chicory root, dehydrated organic kelp, pumpkin, carrots, spinach, turnip greens, apples, cranberries, saskatoon berries, black currants, choline chloride, psyllium, licorice root, angelica root, fenugreek, marigold flowers, sweet fennel, peppermint leaf, chamomile flowers, dandelion, summer savory, rosemary*, sea salt, vitamin supplements (vitamin A, vitamin D3, vitamin E, niacin, vitamin C, thiamine mononitrate, riboflavin, vitamin B5, vitamin B6, folic acid, biotin, vitamin B12), mineral supplements (zinc proteinate, iron proteinate, manganese proteinate, copper proteinate, selenium), dried Lactobacillus acidophilus, dried Enterococcus faecium fermentation product. 

*Bolded* items potentially add carbs. Underlined items are proteins. Orijen has 20% carbs. I made up a completely arbitrary recipe on ND from the 3 main carb sources of 20 ounces raw potato, 10 ounces raw sweet potato and 10 ounces raw peas. It came to 239 dry grams of which 200 were carb, 30.9 were protein. Works to 83.6% carbs, 15.45% protein by dry weight. 

If you add in plant proteins you are also adding in carbs. Lots of carbs. Check the carb level and the types of carbs. If the food has corn gluten meal then the kibble is guilty of plant protein loading. High quality kibbles don't do this. Kibble isn't water where you can add in more and it vanishes. Grams added mean other grams are pushed out.


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