# That's IT, I've had it. I'm buying Tim's food.



## kevin bradley

Any group of people that is this argumentative and willing to fight and go at it so much...

I can't help but wonder about their food. You win, Tim's army. You finally broke me down. You all either know your stuff or put on one helluva show. I'll know soon as I'm ordering some from Petflow tonight.

There are 2 points that do raise my eyebrow on Tim...

1. I've addressed this before--his dropping the hammer on the Grainfree craze in the last couple years... then I see he comes out with a Grainfree line. I certainly don't care that he offers grainfree foods. It just smelled a bit hypocritical. 

2. Glucosamine in his food. I've never ready anyone say that Glucosamine was anything but a giant scam as an ingredient and that any time you see it in food, it is nothing more than fancy marketing. I do wonder why Tim would stick this in his food?...unless there IS a reason for it. From what I've read, the entire Glucosomine thing, even for HUMANs is highly debatable and may actually do nothing to help any living creatures joints.


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## SaharaNight Boxers

As far as what I'm thinking is that most just use it for endurance sports because of the carbs. Corn = cheap carb. I think it's just a good show. I can find people who swear by Eukanuba. Doesn't mean anything.

Honestly I think they just changed it with the fads like you said about GF. I don't want a company that just goes with the flow and fads. I just don't like that about it. It's just marketing to me to try to get more customers.


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## kevin bradley

yeah, I know... its peculiar. The army of posters. The constant ridicule of Orijen and all the brands we love. And I know I came about it in a really, really bizarre way. But I gotta hand it to them. They broke me down. I can't take it any longer. Slow cooking, low ash, big meat content... you win guys. I'll try it. Fine.


But I still want them to address my 2 points above again...well, at least the Glucosamine one. I think Tim already sent me something on Grain Free.


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## kevin bradley

SaharaNight Boxers said:


> As far as what I'm thinking is that most just use it for endurance sports because of the carbs. Corn = cheap carb. I think it's just a good show. I can find people who swear by Eukanuba. Doesn't mean anything.
> 
> Honestly I think they just changed it with the fads like you said about GF. I don't want a company that just goes with the flow and fads. I just don't like that about it. It's just marketing to me to try to get more customers.



Sahara, in fairness, I don't think the Kinesis has any Corn in it. 

God what has the world come to, I'm out here defending Tim 


Correction to the above... Horrock's in Grand Rapids is carrying it so I'll probably just grab some up there next time I'm there.


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## SaharaNight Boxers

Looking at the grain free maybe I've got it figured out. Grain inclusive has 26% protein and 5.8 ash. Grain free has 32% protein and 6.9 ash. The way I'm looking at it is you either get meat in their food or low ash. Together doesn't seem to be an option apparently. 

And I have to admit the "true carnivore" diet had me laughing.


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## meggels

SaharaNight Boxers said:


> Looking at the grain free maybe I've got it figured out. Grain inclusive has 26% protein and 5.8 ash. Grain free has 32% protein and 6.9 ash. The way I'm looking at it is you either get meat in their food or low ash. Together doesn't seem to be an option apparently.
> 
> And I have to admit the "true carnivore" diet had me laughing.



6.9% is still pretty low though?


Kevin, I've considered trying it for pips and giggles too lol.


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## Jacksons Mom

Lol, I tend to agree. I've been informed of a lot of things I wouldn't have believed in the past, and done some of my own research, and am kind of having the same feelings as you. 

I've been feeding Fromm (he can only seemingly tolerate the beef formula, thus far) so hopefully he continues doing well with it. I love the low ash, the company, etc, etc.


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## Unosmom

I might try a bag just for the heck of it to see if I notice any difference in coat/energy, etc.


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## DaViking

@Kevin; lol you caved  Kidding aside, will you give us some feedback after a cpl of months?

@Sahara; Re carbs, dogs do not utilize quick carbohydrates in performance situations in the same way as humans do. For example a pro cyclist can gain access to some valuable energy from a coke and some gel eaten just before a final climb or a mass sprint. No trials, real life tests or studies I am aware of have shown any significantly gain in sporting performance when dogs where given carbohydrates during or immediately before competition or training. Nor does owners of performance dogs wish to load up their dogs with excessive amounts of carbohydrates. I don't know what you base your thinking of but I can assure you pumping a dog full of "cheap carbs" as you put it on a daily basis will lead to a terrible performer.


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## BearMurphy

I thought dogs use fat for "quick" energy like humans use carbs


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## mheath0429

I am new to this forum, but not to dog nutrition. I am not at all impressed with Tim's foods and in no way does it compare to Orijen. I wouldn't even feed the grain free formula, its packed FULL of vegetable protein. My dogs a carnivore. Sorry.


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## Liz

Mheath, I am curious - what do you feed?


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## monster'sdad

SaharaNight Boxers said:


> Looking at the grain free maybe I've got it figured out. Grain inclusive has 26% protein and 5.8 ash. Grain free has 32% protein and 6.9 ash. The way I'm looking at it is you either get meat in their food or low ash. Together doesn't seem to be an option apparently.
> 
> And I have to admit the "true carnivore" diet had me laughing.


Sarah I will sum it up for you:

Kinesis, 26/16, 90% Protein from Animal Sources, 5.8% Ash.
Pursuit, 30/20, 94% Protein from Animal Sources, 6.5% Ash
Momentum, 35/25, 96% Protein from Animal Sources, 6.0% Ash
Kinesis GF, 32/18, 92% Protein from Animal Sources, 6.9% Ash


Sarah, have you been to the Dr. Tim's FB page? There is a guide name Joe Henderson that takes a team of Malamutes into the Arctic in the winter on 100 day camping trips that uses Momentum. Very interesting stuff.

You seem to discount the experience of all these professionals that use the food. Why is that?


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## monster'sdad

mheath0429 said:


> I am new to this forum, but not to dog nutrition. I am not at all impressed with Tim's foods and in no way does it compare to Orijen. I wouldn't even feed the grain free formula, its packed FULL of vegetable protein. My dogs a carnivore. Sorry.


How do you figure? 92% of the protein in the GF is from animal sources. Show me your calculation.

There is no "pea protein" or any other type of concentrate in it. It would be impossible for the protein to come from anything but meat. Whole "field peas" are way less than 10% protein. Brown rice is about 3% protein. The "pea protein" you find in other foods is 90% protein.

So it is impossble for the protein to come from elsewhere.

So explain to me in detail how the foods could be "packed Full" of vegetable protein. If Kinesis, Pursuit and Momentum were 100% brown rice, the most the protein could be overall is 3%. If the GF was 100% field peas, the most the protein could be is around 5%. So your argument does not make sense.

Sounds like you are new to dog nutrition. If you wanna say Acana, Earthborn, Nutrisource and Fromm GF's are then I would agree with you. These all have high levels of legume and legume products.


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## DaViking

mheath0429 said:


> I am new to this forum, but not to dog nutrition. I am not at all impressed with Tim's foods and in no way does it compare to Orijen. I wouldn't even feed the grain free formula, its packed FULL of vegetable protein. My dogs a carnivore. Sorry.


"Packed FULL of vegetable protein" What does that mean? Since you say you are not new to dog nutrition I think you should elaborate a bit more on that statement. Right now you sound uneducated. Why does it not compare to Orijen in your opinion and how is it packed full of vegetable protein?

Reading a label is too easy. There are many things a label does not say. One factor most overlook is that protein percentage is often given as per energy per weight unit. Meaning the energy provided by an ingredient to the finished product matters when evaluating foods and ingredients (how the manufacturer formulated the food) 20% of 80 calories is different than 20% of 380 calories when formulating a dog food. A label does not give you weight distribution nor does it give you energy amounts per ingredient per unit. So in that light "Packed FULL of vegetable protein" means very little.


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## Maxy24

> Kinesis, 26/16, 90% Protein from Animal Sources, 5.8% Ash.
> Pursuit, 30/20, 94% Protein from Animal Sources, 6.5% Ash
> Momentum, 35/25, 96% Protein from Animal Sources, 6.0% Ash
> Kinesis GF, 32/18, 92% Protein from Animal Sources, 6.9% Ash


Where did you get the information on how much of the protein is from animal sources?


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## monster'sdad

Maxy24 said:


> Where did you get the information on how much of the protein is from animal sources?


Dr. Hunt posts it on his Facebook Page, and if you call him he will gladly tell you. What I like about him is that he is totally transparent. He even tells you the brand of vitamins used, DSM Nutritional Products, will anyone tell you that? No, because most of the vitamins used are from China. He uses the most expensive pre-mix you can buy.

I have also done the calculation myself, I came up with slightly higher numbers. It is not that difficult. When you understand something like rice is 3% protein, you can easily see it could never contribute much protein.

Think about it. If the whole bag of food was rice the GA couldn't exceed 3%, right?

Where the rubber hits the road for me is the results, and when you see the pro's using this food, you have to wonder why. Clearly, when the Seavey family, among others, uses the food, you have to respect that.


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## monster'sdad

DaViking said:


> "Packed FULL of vegetable protein" What does that mean? Since you say you are not new to dog nutrition I think you should elaborate a bit more on that statement. Right now you sound uneducated. Why does it not compare to Orijen in your opinion and how is it packed full of vegetable protein?
> 
> Reading a label is too easy. There are many things a label does not say. One factor most overlook is that protein percentage is often given as per energy per weight unit. Meaning the energy provided by an ingredient to the finished product matters when evaluating foods and ingredients (how the manufacturer formulated the food) 20% of 80 calories is different than 20% of 380 calories when formulating a dog food.


Viking, Heath's is a typical comment. People don't understand that a list of ingredients the way pet food is presented is really not that informative. Most of the Dr. Tim foods have 6 or 7 concentrated animal sources spread out to balance the amino acids, and the foods are very heavy on chicken meal. Most companies will break the lead protein into a bunch of smaller ingredients so it appears there is more protein than there really is. 

When you realize that grains and legumes other than lentils are pretty low in protein but "pea protein", "potato protein", "pea starch" and some others are moderate to almost 100% protein, it should start to fall into place.

But that poster's comment shows she doesn't know much. 

Pursuit has about the same calories from carbs as Orijen and Momentum has far less, about the same as Evo. Momentum is among the lowest carb levels on the market, if not the lowest.


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## monster'sdad

Unosmom said:


> I might try a bag just for the heck of it to see if I notice any difference in coat/energy, etc.


Use Pursuit for that dog. Use a light hand too because the production method and some of the nutrient additions make this food stick.


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## Unosmom

> Use Pursuit for that dog. Use a light hand too because the production method and some of the nutrient additions make this food stick.


that's what I'm leaning towards since he does best between 28-35% protein. Right now he's on First Mate maintenance which is chicken/rice and 26% protein, but I'm not happy with his coat, it actually started fading and has a bit of an orange tint to it which I've never seen before, it also feels very rough to the touch. I have an unopened bag of Back to Basics, so that's next on the list and then probably this food.


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## SaharaNight Boxers

monster'sdad said:


> Sarah I will sum it up for you:
> 
> Kinesis, 26/16, 90% Protein from Animal Sources, 5.8% Ash.
> Pursuit, 30/20, 94% Protein from Animal Sources, 6.5% Ash
> Momentum, 35/25, 96% Protein from Animal Sources, 6.0% Ash
> Kinesis GF, 32/18, 92% Protein from Animal Sources, 6.9% Ash
> 
> 
> Sarah, have you been to the Dr. Tim's FB page? There is a guide name Joe Henderson that takes a team of Malamutes into the Arctic in the winter on 100 day camping trips that uses Momentum. Very interesting stuff.
> 
> You seem to discount the experience of all these professionals that use the food. Why is that?


Here is my problem with it. Do you think they just feed straight kibble, no add ins? Probably not. Each dog would be eating possible pounds of kibble for all the calories needed. I can find people who swear by Eukanuba, Purina, Royal Canine, stc. Doesn't make it a good food. Just like DaViking found a couple who swears by Inukshuk that also does sledding. They put it above Dr. Tim's. 

And when did sledding become the epitome of who to follow about what to feed? It seems like you (and your ofher usernames) treat it as if a muscher feeds it, then it must be good. I don't agree with that.


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## domika

I've got nothing against Dr. Tim's food. I just get rubbed the wrong way when a whole army for specific foods come in bashing other foods that clearly other board members' dogs have been thriving on. I don't even feed kibble right now, I feed dehydrated, but I don't push that on other users. I will recommend foods based on the dog, not based on the brand because some says "See this group of sled dogs? They're thriving so this means this food is the best!" 

If I still fed kibble, yeah I would maybe try a grain free Dr. Tim's in a rotation. But all the negativity from the Dr. Tim army on here just turns me off.


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## DaViking

In all honesty, it's what... like two or three nicks here who promote Dr.Tim's with passion? What kind of an "army" is that? It's a pretty lousy bunch compared to the army of raw preachers on this forum. If you'r not buying the gospel just look away. Learn to take what is written on a forum with a grain or ten of salt and trust real life.


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## DaViking

SaharaNight Boxers said:


> I can find people who swear by Eukanuba, Purina, Royal Canine, stc. Doesn't make it a good food. Just like DaViking found a couple who swears by Inukshuk that also does sledding. They put it above Dr. Tim's.


Found a couple? Oh well...

I didn't add the Inukshuk testimonial link to that other thread as an anti Dr. Tim's statement and I don't claim it's better than Dr. Tim's. They are both, together with some other brands/formulas, very good foods. I claim that those as a group are very good alternatives and to tell them apart you really need special circumstances.


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## domika

domika said:


> I've got nothing against Dr. Tim's food. I just get rubbed the wrong way when a whole army for specific foods come in bashing other foods that clearly other board members' dogs have been thriving on. I don't even feed kibble right now, I feed dehydrated, but I don't push that on other users. I will recommend foods based on the dog, not based on the brand because some says "See this group of sled dogs? They're thriving so this means this food is the best!"
> 
> If I still fed kibble, yeah I would maybe try a grain free Dr. Tim's in a rotation. But all the negativity from the Dr. Tim army on here just turns me off.


I guess that's just what I called the couple people. I know it's not a whole "army" that's just how I phrased it in that moment. There are also some Champion promoters that want nothing to do with any other company, I just posted it here since it seemed to fit. 

I just don't want some people to feed/keep feeding their dog a certain brand of food even if their dog does terribly on that food because someone said it was amazing for their dog. I guess all I'm saying is that there isn't a one best food. I think most people know that but sometimes it seems the... fans, I will call them, fans of any one specific brand, just get so one brand minded that they could be ruling out some foods their dog might do great on.

I trust the foods my dog does best and try guide people in finding the same thing for their dog.

Not trying to start anything 

*Edited to say whoops, didn't realize I quoted myself. :redface:


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## meggels

Victoria, Kevin...all three of us should try it and post our results in depth. Think it would be interesting lol. I'd be willing to give it a try with Abbie  could be a fun experiment...


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## mheath0429

Maxy24 said:


> Where did you get the information on how much of the protein is from animal sources?


I was thinking the same thing - 

Chicken meal, dried white potatoes, dried field peas, dried beet pulp (sugar removed), chicken fat (preserved with mixed tocopherols and citric acid), ocean herring meal, tapioca, dried whole eggs, whole ground flax seed, menhaden fish oil, chicken liver, salmon meal, porcine plasma, carrots, celery, beets, parsley, lettuce, watercress, spinach, potassium chloride, salt, lecithin, calcium carbonate, L-Lysine, canola oil, dried Enterococcus faecium fermentation product, dried Saccharomyces cerevisiae fermentation product, dried Lactobacillus acidophilus fermentation product, dl-methionine, organic dried kelp, psyllium seed husks, yucca schidigera extract, choline chloride, dried chicory root, algae fat product (source of DHA), ascorbic acid, glucosamine, L-ascorbyl-2-polyphosphate (stabilized ascorbic acid), taurine, vitamin E supplement, zinc sulfate, zinc proteinate, beta carotene, ferrous sulfate, ascorbic acid (source of vitamin C), manganese sulfate, inositol, niacin supplement, iron proteinate, manganese proteinate, zinc oxide, biotin, thiamine mononitrate (source of vitamin B1), copper sulfate, pyridoxine hydrochloride (source of vitamin B6), copper proteinate, vitamin A supplement, riboflavin supplement (source of vitamin B2), calcium pantothenate, potassium iodide (source of iodine), manganous oxide, selenium, calcium iodate, vitamin B12 supplement, vitamin D3 supplement, folic acid, L-carnitine, rosemary extract.Animal feeding tests using AAFCO procedures substantiate that Kinesis provides complete and balanced nutrition for all life stages.Metabolizable energy (calculated): 3750 kcal/kg
Kinesis is 415 kcal ME/cup (110g)

That is the list of ingredients. Notice, chicken meal is labeled first - then its just A LOT of vegetable protein. I would love to find out how this could be animal protein. He can lie all he wants on facebook, he isn't bound by anything.


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## mheath0429

Also, this is the sites page, which lists nothing about it being 90+% animal protein - probably because thats false advertising. 

Premium All Natural Pet Food | Dr. Tim's


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## mheath0429

I feed raw now. But, previously I fed Acana, Orijen, Fromm and various freeze dried foods.


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## kevin bradley

oh I will be reporting on this food for certain. Also, Monster... cut the crap on the sled Dog stuff. None of us are "mushers" or whatever you call them. And frankly, everytime I see pictures of 79 sled Dogs on chains in some faraway place, it really pisses me off. And don't tell me how much they "love" their lives. Dogs are conditioned to deal with anything and that life sucks. So your constant glamorization of sled Dogs and their esteemed owners only draws me away from you. I'm gonna try the food but shut it on the Sled Dog babble. Most of us only want our Dogs to be healthy and live as long as possible. Your analogy of them performing well doesn't mean crap to me. A 200 lb NFL Cornerback on Steroids will perform well also but doesn't necessarily mean he's healthy. 

Also, the constant ridicule of Orijen and some other brands.... the only thing I will add is that you can sit out here and slam them without any rebuttal from Champion or others. My guess is that their Vets/Scientists might have some very informative replies to your bashing. You have the luxury of blasting on them every day without their chance to reply. 

All that being said, I...along with others are willing to try Tim's food. But be careful.


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## SaharaNight Boxers

DaViking said:


> Found a couple? Oh well...
> 
> I didn't add the Inukshuk testimonial link to that other thread as an anti Dr. Tim's statement and I don't claim it's better than Dr. Tim's. They are both, together some other brands/formulas, very good foods. I claim that those as a group are very good alternatives and to tell them apart you really need special circumstances.


A husband and wife that sleds? I'd say that's a couple. 

What I mean by that is anyone can find one brand they'll stick with. Even in the same sport. They chose Inukshuk. And they seem to be doing quite well also. I know it wasn't anti-Dr. Tim's.


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## DaViking

mheath0429 said:


> I was thinking the same thing -
> 
> Chicken meal, dried white potatoes, dried field peas, dried beet pulp (sugar removed), chicken fat (preserved with mixed tocopherols and citric acid), ocean herring meal, tapioca, dried whole eggs, whole ground flax seed, menhaden fish oil, chicken liver, salmon meal, porcine plasma, carrots, celery, beets, parsley, lettuce, watercress, spinach, potassium chloride, salt, lecithin, calcium carbonate, L-Lysine, canola oil, dried Enterococcus faecium fermentation product, dried Saccharomyces cerevisiae fermentation product, dried Lactobacillus acidophilus fermentation product, dl-methionine, organic dried kelp, psyllium seed husks, yucca schidigera extract, choline chloride, dried chicory root, algae fat product (source of DHA), ascorbic acid, glucosamine, L-ascorbyl-2-polyphosphate (stabilized ascorbic acid), taurine, vitamin E supplement, zinc sulfate, zinc proteinate, beta carotene, ferrous sulfate, ascorbic acid (source of vitamin C), manganese sulfate, inositol, niacin supplement, iron proteinate, manganese proteinate, zinc oxide, biotin, thiamine mononitrate (source of vitamin B1), copper sulfate, pyridoxine hydrochloride (source of vitamin B6), copper proteinate, vitamin A supplement, riboflavin supplement (source of vitamin B2), calcium pantothenate, potassium iodide (source of iodine), manganous oxide, selenium, calcium iodate, vitamin B12 supplement, vitamin D3 supplement, folic acid, L-carnitine, rosemary extract.Animal feeding tests using AAFCO procedures substantiate that Kinesis provides complete and balanced nutrition for all life stages.Metabolizable energy (calculated): 3750 kcal/kg
> Kinesis is 415 kcal ME/cup (110g)
> 
> That is the list of ingredients. Notice, chicken meal is labeled first - then its just A LOT of vegetable protein. I would love to find out how this could be animal protein. He can lie all he wants on facebook, he isn't bound by anything.


You shouldn't be using phrases like "not new to dog nutrition" because you display zero, zip, zilch knowledge of what you are talking about. After chicken meal you have dried potatoes and field peas. Next is the fiber that I would guess comes in around 3% to 4%. (see, that number is important because of where it is in the ingredients list  ) Where is the "A LOT" of vegetable protein? Please answer questions ppl are asking you. Otherwise you are just another drive-by board troll.

He's lying! He's not bound by anything! Are you kidding me? What reality are you operating in? One 50 bucks test and he is busted and his brand is done for you realize that right?


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## mheath0429

DaViking said:


> You shouldn't be using phrases like "not new to dog nutrition" because you display zero, zip, zilch knowledge of what you are talking about. After chicken meal you have dried potatoes and field peas. Where is the "A LOT" of vegetable protein? Please answer questions ppl are asking you. Otherwise you are just another drive-by board troll.



Chicken meal is labeled first and that is great - but how can you prove that those veggie proteins aren't the majority of the product since they are one after the other. Not to mention, Beet pulp is a known sugary filler. Please tell me why these are beneficial and how I am a troll? You have not given ANY scientifically backed data about the formula - you have has hearsay.


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## DaViking

SaharaNight Boxers said:


> A husband and wife that sleds? I'd say that's a couple.


Whit all due respect, you need to get out more in various dog circles.


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## CavePaws

mheath0429 said:


> Chicken meal is labeled first and that is great - but how can you prove that those veggie proteins aren't the majority of the product since they are one after the other. Not to mention, Beet pulp is a known sugary filler. Please tell me why these are beneficial and how I am a troll? You have not given ANY scientifically backed data about the formula - you have has hearsay.


They add beat pulp for fiber right?


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## CavePaws

DaViking said:


> Whit all due respect, you need to get out more in various dog circles.


We have a couple on DFC who used to mush and do weight pulling...lol.


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## mheath0429

CavePaws said:


> They add beat pulp for fiber right?



I can't see how it would be used for fiber that high up on the list of ingredients - if it were fiber it wouldn't be comprised as a large part of the formula. This suggests a filler IMO.


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## mheath0429

DaViking said:


> You shouldn't be using phrases like "not new to dog nutrition" because you display zero, zip, zilch knowledge of what you are talking about. After chicken meal you have dried potatoes and field peas. Next is the fiber that I would guess comes in around 3% to 4%. (see, that number is important because of where it is in the ingredients list  ) Where is the "A LOT" of vegetable protein? Please answer questions ppl are asking you. Otherwise you are just another drive-by board troll.
> 
> He's lying! He's not bound by anything! Are you kidding me? What reality are you operating in? One 50 bucks test and he is busted and his brand is done for you realize that right?



Then why doesn't he put it on his packaging? It's not on the packaging and that is where the FDA would go ballistic - a facebook page is different.


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## CavePaws

I guess...It's just speculation? I know more about kibble than raw right now. I just work for a company and know a tiny itty bit about the kibbles out there and their make up. I would guess you would look at the fiber content, which is fairly low; explains why the the beet pulp is low on the list. It isn't as abundant as other ingredients like Proteins and Fats. So perhaps a filler? Idk, I hate non-transparency...so perhaps someone from Tim's posse will answer the question. Most kibble companies blow anyway. JMO.

edit: Meant to say I know more about raw than kibble right now.


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## DaViking

mheath0429 said:


> Chicken meal is labeled first and that is great - but how can you prove that those veggie proteins aren't the majority of the product since they are one after the other. Not to mention, Beet pulp is a known sugary filler. Please tell me why these are beneficial and how I am a troll? You have not given ANY scientifically backed data about the formula - you have has hearsay.


1) If you had the slightest knowledge of nutrition you knew where to look up the amounts of protein these two plant ingredients contain. I shouldn't have to provide you with any science since it's public knowledge available in plain sight on the net.

2) Beet pulp as used in dog food is a source of dietary fiber and does not contain any sugar, nor is a filler. A filler is an ingredient who serves no purpose what-so-ever. Do you understand what a dietary fiber is? Beet pulp is partly fermentable vegetable fiber and is a source of food for existing bacteria in the gut. These desirable bacteria colonies need stuff to eat and that is exactly what beet pulp provides. Beet pulp (and other sources of dietary fiber) is an essential part of good digestion and enhance growth of beneficial bacteria. Google it. I'll provide links as soon as I say something remotely controversial.

Two posts and no backing of anything smells like trolling to me.


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## CavePaws

DaViking said:


> 1) If you had the slightest knowledge of nutrition you knew where to look up the amounts of protein these two plant ingredients contain. I shouldn't have to provide you with any science since it's public knowledge available in plain sight on the net.
> 
> 2) Beet pulp as used in dog food is a source of dietary fiber and does not contain any sugar, nor is a filler. A filler is an ingredient who serves no purpose what-so-ever. Do you understand what a dietary fiber is? Beet pulp is partly fermentable vegetable fiber and is a source of food for existing bacteria in the gut. These desirable bacteria colonies need stuff to eat and that is exactly what beet pulp provides. Beet pulp (and other sources of dietary fiber) is an essential part of good digestion and enhance growth of beneficial bacteria. Google it. I'll provide links as soon as I say something remotely controversial.



I disagree on two points you made.

1. Beet pulp does not contain "no sugar". It contains less sugar than Beets themselves, which are high in sugar. 
2. Beet pulp is absolutely not essential to good digestion. I don't eat it and my dogs don't eat it and we have iron stomachs.


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## stajbs

Cavepaws, I may have been one of the ones you reference who has done recreational mushing and some weight pulling. My issue with our other sled dog food related person(s) was pontificating about the results of a certain racers teams and the Annamaet formulas they hawked without any open mind to other foods. That same person, or persons was also the one who hawked corn to the nth degree. Truthdog and all the other names the person or persons used made me nuts with those posts putting down all kinds of other kibble other than Abady and Annamaet. I have not been around to see all of the Dr. Tim posts so I have no clue what I am talking about in that regard, so will not comment other than to say that I have heard some good things about some of Dr. Tim's formulas. I have never been one who wanted to run long races, preferring to go out for recreation, fun, and maybe put in 12-15 miles a week over the years. We ran on average 3/4 days a week when we ran our sibes. I know people who feed some of Dr. Tims forumlas, I will have to ask them if they add to it during extreme situations. We never fed Dr. Tims as it was developing back when we were running, but we did add meat and fat under extreme conditions to what we were feeding at the time. I have to honestly look at Dr. Tims formulas to see whether I would think that would be necessary if we were running again, and I'd have to judge that on how my dogs were looking. However, with my senior guys at this point I'll continue with some raw meaty bones, FROMM, Acana and cooking. If you guys test these formulas out I would be curious about the results for future knowledge. I will also ask a few people I know who do feed Dr Tims formulas how they are feeling about the food. May even wander over to Sleddogcentral again and see if there is any input there. My curiosity just got the best of me. lol


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## DaViking

@heat; You are in no position to tell how "large" part it is. 3% to 5% could still be number 4 on the list. Point is you do not know, end of story.


----------



## mheath0429

DaViking said:


> 1) If you had the slightest knowledge of nutrition you knew where to look up the amounts of protein these two plant ingredients contain. I shouldn't have to provide you with any science since it's public knowledge available in plain sight on the net.
> 
> 2) Beet pulp as used in dog food is a source of dietary fiber and does not contain any sugar, nor is a filler. A filler is an ingredient who serves no purpose what-so-ever. Do you understand what a dietary fiber is? Beet pulp is partly fermentable vegetable fiber and is a source of food for existing bacteria in the gut. These desirable bacteria colonies need stuff to eat and that is exactly what beet pulp provides. Beet pulp (and other sources of dietary fiber) is an essential part of good digestion and enhance growth of beneficial bacteria. Google it. I'll provide links as soon as I say something remotely controversial.
> 
> Two posts and no backing of anything smells like trolling to me.


Really? I guess I should start adding it to my raw diet then. If it's that essential. 

Stop throwing the troll word out there, when the heck did anyone say anything rude to you? I have shared my opinion on a product. You are acting like I kicked your dog or something. Jeeze. 

The point still stand that per the ingredient listing it isn't a premium food. Maybe there is some insane amount of chicken meal, but you need to remember that by definition Chicken meal is not comprised of muscle meat, it is the left over connective tissues, bones and small amount of muscle meat AFTER all meat is removed for human consumption. That is also available for public knowledge, go ahead and google it. 

I would have no problem with beet pulp if it weren't located as the fourth ingredient. Plenty of companies use beet pulp for fiber and don't have it that high on the list.


----------



## DaViking

CavePaws said:


> I guess...It's just speculation? I know more about kibble than raw right now. I just work for a company and know a tiny itty bit about the kibbles out there and their make up. I would guess you would look at the fiber content, which is fairly low; explains why the the beet pulp is low on the list. It isn't as abundant as other ingredients like Proteins and Fats. So perhaps a filler? Idk, I hate non-transparency...so perhaps someone from Tim's posse will answer the question. Most kibble companies blow anyway. JMO.
> 
> edit: Meant to say I know more about raw than kibble right now.


The only ones with true fillers among premium and super premium brands are the ones with excessive amounts of minerals. Beet pulp is not a filler.


----------



## DaViking

mheath0429 said:


> Really? I guess I should start adding it to my raw diet then. If it's that essential.
> 
> Stop throwing the troll word out there, when the heck did anyone say anything rude to you? I have shared my opinion on a product. You are acting like I kicked your dog or something. Jeeze.
> 
> The point still stand that per the ingredient listing it isn't a premium food. Maybe there is some insane amount of chicken meal, but you need to remember that by definition Chicken meal is not comprised of muscle meat, it is the left over connective tissues, bones and small amount of muscle meat AFTER all meat is removed for human consumption. That is also available for public knowledge, go ahead and google it.
> 
> I would have no problem with beet pulp if it weren't located as the fourth ingredient. Plenty of companies use beet pulp for fiber and don't have it that high on the list.


There you go. A raw feeder who wants to get two cents heard in the kibble section. What's new under the sun. You still don't understand that the order of ingredients on a label is of limited value when evaluating a food. Provide us with an individual distribution you know to be correct and then we can talk. Also, so you are claiming Dr. Tim's meals are of low quality and digestibility?


----------



## SaharaNight Boxers

CavePaws said:


> We have a couple on DFC who used to mush and do weight pulling...lol.


I was considering Schutzund and weight pull/drafting...not even kidding. It might be something we progress to.


----------



## DaViking

mheath0429 said:


> I can't see how it would be used for fiber that high up on the list of ingredients - if it were fiber it wouldn't be comprised as a large part of the formula. This suggests a filler IMO.


If your thinking is correct stools from dogs eating Dr. Tim's food would be humongous! We are talking Guinness book of records huge


----------



## mheath0429

YYou have no unbiased data supporting your claims.


----------



## CavePaws

Would bone meal be such a bad thing for fiber?

Just curious. It would be more species appropriate for stool firming IMO


----------



## mheath0429

CavePaws said:


> Would bone meal be such a bad thing for fiber?
> 
> Just curious. It would be more species appropriate for stool firming IMO


Bone meal is an amazing source of fiber. I've used it if I an feeding an especially organ dense meal, keeps theguys stool solid. And its fully digestible


----------



## DaViking

mheath0429 said:


> YYou have no unbiased data supporting your claims.


Yes I do, for ever tiny little thing I say. An entire world of science, peer reviewed studies, trials and real life uses and tests. If I don't have any exact data on what-ever I am talking about I look at what real life and real use cases are telling me and apply common sense. Give me something controversial I have said or claimed and I will give you all the background data I have. Don't be shy. However, for some raw feeders here everything is controversial. It's 2012 and defending beet pulp to some is getting old really fast. If you are one of those extremists, don't even bother. I am not going to waste time on defending and justifying what 90% of the world regards as uncontroversial science and knowledge. Just as I don't bother anymore with jumping into a cpl of other sections here where i see outrageous claims and advice happen multiple times per day.

Anyways, I shouldn't have to back up anything, you are the one who jumped in here with no posts and literally claiming Dr. Tim's is crap containing huge amounts of plant protein. No qualification of your claims what-so-ever. You have been asked several times but you still haven't provided any meat on the bone, no pun intended. Others have tried to tell you the reason why your statements and opinions re. this food are way off, you haven't qualified you statements in any way.


----------



## DaViking

mheath0429 said:


> Bone meal is an amazing source of fiber. I've used it if I an feeding an especially organ dense meal, keeps theguys stool solid. And its fully digestible


An amazing source of fiber and fully digestible? Really? Actually... I don't care because it doesn't belong in a dry/canned/kibble discussion.


----------



## mheath0429

You are so defensive. It's funny, because you have spent all this time attacking me and all I have asked is for evidence, which you still haven't posted. I have yet to. All you names or call you ignorant. Why can't you just be civil. Jeeze, it's just kibble.
Fwiw, I don't think number of posts has anything to do with intelligence. I have been on various other forums and thought this would be a great one to join as well.

Thanks for the welcome


----------



## Liz

Mheath - the kibble area has always been defensive. I would love to see more pics of your dogs and see you post on the raw section or health. Looking forward to reading more from you.


----------



## bluebo

Maybe the kibble section is defensive because raw is just so much more superior to kibble and deep down we feel guilt for inferior feeding practices \sarcasm.
Daviking seems to be pretty well versed and educated in what he/she is talking about. In previous threads he/she has given many links to prove his/her claims. The only links I've seen go towards raw is rawfed.com which is purely anecdotal. 
Liz is correct however- if you want to discuss raw there is an appropriate section for it.
I would try dr Tim's if I had it more easily available. No harm in trying it!


----------



## mheath0429

The thing is, I have nothing against kibble. I feed raw for my reasons, but I was never bashing kibble in general. No way did I say any which was superior. I feel that kibble, when fed should be animal protein based and all I wanted was an unbiased and factual analysis of this food. Which I never got.


----------



## monster'sdad

mheath0429 said:


> Chicken meal is labeled first and that is great - but how can you prove that those veggie proteins aren't the majority of the product since they are one after the other. Not to mention, Beet pulp is a known sugary filler. Please tell me why these are beneficial and how I am a troll? You have not given ANY scientifically backed data about the formula - you have has hearsay.


Heath, you clearly don't know what you are talking about. You think you know what you are talking about because you use the same approach of many novices on dog food forums. If you use simple math and assume potatoes and field peas have about 5% protein you can calculate yourself that in the Dr. Tim's GF of the 32% GA Protein, about 30% (92%) is from animal sources. If potato and field peas are 5% protin and represent, say 20% of the weight, that means the contribution to protein is 1%. Get it???

Go look at Earthborn, Fromm, Nutrisource and calculate the impact of 'pea protein' at 95% protein. If they use that stuff at 15% of weight then 14% of the GA protein is from vegetable sources. So if you see a GF with 30% protein that contains "pea protein" about 50% is vegetable.

There are 7 sources of CONCENTRATED ANIMAL PROTEIN in that Dr. Tim's GF. Where they show up on the label doesn't mean a thing unless you know the weights of each. One good example is Whole Dried Egg. This form of egg is extremely light in weight but has enormous amounts of protein. 

Please stop with your Dog Park Analytics. Also, beet pulp has no sugar. Tomato Pomace is often used to appease label readers like you and that in fact has tons of sugar.


----------



## monster'sdad

mheath0429 said:


> You are so defensive. It's funny, because you have spent all this time attacking me and all I have asked is for evidence, which you still haven't posted. I have yet to. All you names or call you ignorant. Why can't you just be civil. Jeeze, it's just kibble.
> Fwiw, I don't think number of posts has anything to do with intelligence. I have been on various other forums and thought this would be a great one to join as well.
> 
> Thanks for the welcome


Don't you work for another food company? Yes?????


----------



## monster'sdad

stajbs said:


> Cavepaws, I may have been one of the ones you reference who has done recreational mushing and some weight pulling. My issue with our other sled dog food related person(s) was pontificating about the results of a certain racers teams and the Annamaet formulas they hawked without any open mind to other foods. That same person, or persons was also the one who hawked corn to the nth degree. Truthdog and all the other names the person or persons used made me nuts with those posts putting down all kinds of other kibble other than Abady and Annamaet. I have not been around to see all of the Dr. Tim posts so I have no clue what I am talking about in that regard, so will not comment other than to say that I have heard some good things about some of Dr. Tim's formulas. I have never been one who wanted to run long races, preferring to go out for recreation, fun, and maybe put in 12-15 miles a week over the years. We ran on average 3/4 days a week when we ran our sibes. I know people who feed some of Dr. Tims forumlas, I will have to ask them if they add to it during extreme situations. We never fed Dr. Tims as it was developing back when we were running, but we did add meat and fat under extreme conditions to what we were feeding at the time. I have to honestly look at Dr. Tims formulas to see whether I would think that would be necessary if we were running again, and I'd have to judge that on how my dogs were looking. However, with my senior guys at this point I'll continue with some raw meaty bones, FROMM, Acana and cooking. If you guys test these formulas out I would be curious about the results for future knowledge. I will also ask a few people I know who do feed Dr Tims formulas how they are feeling about the food. May even wander over to Sleddogcentral again and see if there is any input there. My curiosity just got the best of me. lol


The Dr. Tim's formulas have expanded in use from the hard core mushers to show, agility and hunting people. Not everyone has to be Joe Henderson that takes Malamutes on 100 day trips to the Arctic on Dr. Tim's.


----------



## mheath0429

I used to work for a large pet food company, I no longer do because I am tired of the lies. 

Not sure what that has to do with anything and how you know that as it was never mentioned.


----------



## monster'sdad

mheath0429 said:


> Really? I guess I should start adding it to my raw diet then. If it's that essential.
> 
> Stop throwing the troll word out there, when the heck did anyone say anything rude to you? I have shared my opinion on a product. You are acting like I kicked your dog or something. Jeeze.
> 
> The point still stand that per the ingredient listing it isn't a premium food. Maybe there is some insane amount of chicken meal, but you need to remember that by definition Chicken meal is not comprised of muscle meat, it is the left over connective tissues, bones and small amount of muscle meat AFTER all meat is removed for human consumption. That is also available for public knowledge, go ahead and google it.
> 
> I would have no problem with beet pulp if it weren't located as the fourth ingredient. Plenty of companies use beet pulp for fiber and don't have it that high on the list.


Every time you make a statement you show how little you know. "Chicken Meal" is the clean flesh of the chicken, with or without accompanying bone. The term "meal" refers to the particle size, not the quality. It does not matter that for pets the sources are the smaller pieces taken off the carcass that people don't eat, it only matters that it is meat. Do you care if small or big pieces of chicken meat are used?

In Dr. Tim's case, the ash is so low, that there isn't much bone in the meal.


----------



## danea

CavePaws said:


> 2. Beet pulp is absolutely not essential to good digestion. I don't eat it and my dogs don't eat it and we have iron stomachs.


Kibble is highly processed product, with unnatural water content (to low, and not everyone add water or canned), I presume such foods would effects beneficial bacteria in dogs colon and manufacturers would need to add something to support them.


----------



## dogdragoness

what show is this? lol

i wont buy any food i dont want too, simple as that. i have had reps from nutro & BB tell me their food is better then what i am feeding (earthborn holistic) & that they used to use artifical vita K in their food (tho i have never read this) & their calorie content is very high, i am going to slowly transition Josefina over to that if satin balls dont put weight on her (i got a bad batch from natures variety's prairie line & got a voicher for a free bag, so i took it). i am feeding her premade raw but me not working has made things tough & paying $20+ for stella & chewys plus the driving to find a place that carries it is too much for me to afford.


----------



## DaViking

mheath0429 said:


> You are so defensive. It's funny, because you have spent all this time attacking me and all I have asked is for evidence, which you still haven't posted. I have yet to. All you names or call you ignorant. Why can't you just be civil. Jeeze, it's just kibble.
> Fwiw, I don't think number of posts has anything to do with intelligence. I have been on various other forums and thought this would be a great one to join as well.
> 
> Thanks for the welcome


What evidence? Have I made any claims? What do you want? Please be specific if you want me to provide you with any info or data. You came in here claiming Dr. Tim's is packed full of plant proteins. You are the one who should be providing us all with evidence. But, we all know you can't simply because your logic and knowledge about this is flawed, or maybe for a reason. Well, I guess there is no point in asking you to back up your claims anymore, not gonna happen.

You are welcome Megan  Take a deep breath and re-set. There is a lot of knowledge here but running wild with bizzarro claims isn't very welcome.


----------



## DaViking

mheath0429 said:


> all I wanted was an unbiased and factual analysis of this food. Which I never got.


You did get several but you chose to look away.


----------



## DaViking

mheath0429 said:


> I used to work for a large pet food company, I no longer do because I am tired of the lies.
> 
> Not sure what that has to do with anything and how you know that as it was never mentioned.


When did you quit and may I ask what you are doing now? Are you working in or with the pet food industry?


----------



## mheath0429

DaViking said:


> When did you quit and may I ask what you are doing now? Are you working in or with the pet food industry?


No, I do not work in the industry at all.


----------



## bluebo

The OP thought it was well worth it to try dr tims. That means that daviking and/or other members on this forum gave him good reason (facts, links, and truths NOT anecdotes) to at least ATTEMPT it. If the rest of the members don't want to try it- DON'T. 
Why is the this forum so aggressive? And why is there always raw leakage (no pun intended) into the kibble/canned (unnatural poison I mean lol) section?


----------



## stajbs

Wow, I think I am beginning to realize why I stayed away so long, and I am not even in the middle of this debate. Respect folks!! People have different opinions they are entitled to them, we all are. Sighhhh!


----------



## stajbs

Monster's Dad, I'm really not sure what your comment means about Henderson's team of mals, but I shall choose to take it lightly/positively whether you meant it that way or not. I am aware that Dr. Tims is not just being fed in sled dog circles anymore, quite a few of our hunting friends are using it with their dogs as well. In fact one approached me prior to switching to it, having known that we were involved over the years with running and weight pulling. He has spread the word to some of his hunting friends in Michigan and they have now started to feed it as well. I believe the original poster has decided to give it a shot, so be it. I am sure Kevin will let us know how it works out for his dogs. End of story.


----------



## bluebo

stajbs said:


> Monster's Dad, I'm really not sure what your comment means about Henderson's team of mals, but I shall choose to take it lightly/positively whether you meant it that way or not. I am aware that Dr. Tims is not just being fed in sled dog circles anymore, quite a few of our hunting friends are using it with their dogs as well. In fact one approached me prior to switching to it, having known that we were involved over the years with running and weight pulling. He has spread the word to some of his hunting friends in Michigan and they have now started to feed it as well. I believe the original poster has decided to give it a shot, so be it. *I am sure Kevin will let us know how it works out for his dogs. End of story.*


^^ the bold is exactly right. I was not trying to be disrepectful, just stating my opinion.


----------



## stajbs

No disrespect taken bluebo!! I'm all good with people's different opinions. Must be the social work background. In fact I like to read different opinions, it makes for critical thinking, which is important when we are thinking about our dogs and their diets. My personal hang up is disrespect, or when folks make snide comments toward others. Sometimes I wish we could all have filters connected from our brains to our fingers, and the Post Reply button. I've always felt there was a lot to be learned on this forum, many folks here have a wealth of knowledge, it is just a shame that sometimes we get carried away with somewhat offensive comments. Or at least "perceived" as offensive comments. Perception is part of the issue. Okay, off my soapbox, it's not been a good day for my family, as my grandson was again hospitalized, and I'm about as drained as a noodle.

I also have to admit I have had a few moments here myself over the years. So, I need to remember to filter my brain and fingers too. Oh, and mheath, would love to see some pics of those dogs of yours too!


----------



## bluebo

I understand your concern... I can admit to not using my brain before my fingers at times lol. I sometimes sound brash but I'm just passionate like anyone else.
I'm sorry about your grandson... doesn't sound like a good time


----------



## stajbs

Thanks bluebo, grandson will be ok, supposedly he will outgrow this problem, but it is mighty nerve wracking in the moment, and will be for another 3 years or so. I am also trying to study for a test on Tuesday and the unexpected always throws your schedule off, but I still have tomorrow. The other thing you will learn about me is that I hate, hate, hate conflict. lol 

I would suspect we will all have some input on the results of Dr Tims formulas as time passes here. I currently know some folks who are very happy with it in their rotation. Some alternate his formulas exclusively...many different feeding styles out there that's for sure.


----------



## DaViking

bluebo said:


> The OP thought it was well worth it to try dr tims. That means that daviking and/or other members on this forum gave him good reason (facts, links, and truths NOT anecdotes) to at least ATTEMPT it. If the rest of the members don't want to try it- DON'T.
> Why is the this forum so aggressive? And why is there always raw leakage (no pun intended) into the kibble/canned (unnatural poison I mean lol) section?


In all honesty I am not Dr. Tim's top fan on DFC simply because it is not available where I live. Others know much more about the food than I do. But I am active in several performance dog circles and hear only good things about the food. Can't think of anyone who was openly disappointed actually. That combined with common sense and knowledge gained over many years helping owners and handlers with nutritional issues makes me pretty certain that Dr. Tim's is a very good alternative.

@stajbs; I hope your grandson will be ok with time. I know how difficult situations like that can be.


----------



## monster'sdad

DaViking said:


> In all honesty I am not Dr. Tim's top fan on DFC simply because it is not available where I live. Others know much more about the food than I do. But I am active in several performance dog circles and hear only good things about the food. Can't think of anyone who was openly disappointed actually. That combined with common sense and knowledge gained over many years helping owners and handlers with nutritional issues makes me pretty certain that Dr. Tim's is a very good alternative.
> 
> @stajbs; I hope your grandson will be ok with time. I know how difficult situations like that can be.


Yes prayers to the boy.


----------



## monster'sdad

mheath0429 said:


> You are so defensive. It's funny, because you have spent all this time attacking me and all I have asked is for evidence, which you still haven't posted. I have yet to. All you names or call you ignorant. Why can't you just be civil. Jeeze, it's just kibble.
> Fwiw, I don't think number of posts has anything to do with intelligence. I have been on various other forums and thought this would be a great one to join as well.
> 
> Thanks for the welcome


If you have such a strong opinion, back it with facts. You made some open-ended statements that were totally wrong that simple math explained. 

In all my years with dogs, the least experienced people spend the most on food. Sorry to insult but it is the truth.

Granted Dr. Tim's isn't cheap, but you can get 44lb breeder bags from Petflow for about $1.30lb, free shipping and no tax for a world class 30/20 performance food. 

Dr. Hunt underprices his food.


----------



## monster'sdad

stajbs said:


> Monster's Dad, I'm really not sure what your comment means about Henderson's team of mals, but I shall choose to take it lightly/positively whether you meant it that way or not. I am aware that Dr. Tims is not just being fed in sled dog circles anymore, quite a few of our hunting friends are using it with their dogs as well. In fact one approached me prior to switching to it, having known that we were involved over the years with running and weight pulling. He has spread the word to some of his hunting friends in Michigan and they have now started to feed it as well. I believe the original poster has decided to give it a shot, so be it. I am sure Kevin will let us know how it works out for his dogs. End of story.


It simply meant that Joe Henderson could feed anything but chose Momentum for his 100 day trips to the Arctic. Now, of course, no dog here is going on that trip, but people should think about his choice.


----------



## monster'sdad

CavePaws said:


> They add beat pulp for fiber right?


Beet Pulp is added for a bunch of reasons. One critical reason is that beet pulp has been proven by multiple studies to selectively support the good intestinal flora over the bad intestinal flora. Beet pulp cannot be digested by the dog, only the bacteria in the digestive tract. 

It also regulates the absorption of nutrients and has a smoothing effect on blood sugar. It is without a doubt the best fiber that can be included in a kibble. Here are the studies if you care to read.

1. Buterwick, Maxwell. The effect of level and source of dietary fiber on 
food intake in the dog. Journal of Nutrition 1994 Vol. 124
2 Collins MD, Gibson Dr. Nutritional modulation of microbial ecology. American 
Journal of Clinical Nutrition 1998
3. Hallman JE, Moxley RA, et al. Cellulose, beet pulp and pectin/gum arabic 
effects on canine microstructure and histopathology. Veterinary Clinical 
Nutrition 1995;2:137-141
4. Albert s. Townshend DVM, Wellness for Life, Am Journal of Clinical 
Nutrition 2000

Some companies choose to use Tomato Pomace, but it is inferior and has about 5 times the sugar of Beet Pulp. They only use it because it sounds better to the consumer.


----------



## mheath0429

monster'sdad said:


> Beet Pulp is added for a bunch of reasons. One critical reason is that beet pulp has been proven by multiple studies to selectively support the good intestinal flora over the bad intestinal flora. Beet pulp cannot be digested by the dog, only the bacteria in the digestive tract.
> 
> It also regulates the absorption of nutrients and has a smoothing effect on blood sugar. It is without a doubt the best fiber that can be included in a kibble. Here are the studies if you care to read.
> 
> 1. Buterwick, Maxwell. The effect of level and source of dietary fiber on
> food intake in the dog. Journal of Nutrition 1994 Vol. 124
> 2 Collins MD, Gibson Dr. Nutritional modulation of microbial ecology. American
> Journal of Clinical Nutrition 1998
> 3. Hallman JE, Moxley RA, et al. Cellulose, beet pulp and pectin/gum arabic
> effects on canine microstructure and histopathology. Veterinary Clinical
> Nutrition 1995;2:137-141
> 4. Albert s. Townshend DVM, Wellness for Life, Am Journal of Clinical
> Nutrition 2000
> 
> Some companies choose to use Tomato Pomace, but it is inferior and has about 5 times the sugar of Beet Pulp. They only use it because it sounds better to the consumer.


Thanks for posting some stuff that I can actually read and learn from. I have no problem with learning, in fact I am more than willing to. I just don't like when people state their opinions as fact. 

I'll be reading this. Thanks. 

And Stajbs - I will be posting a pic thread soon! 

BTW, I actually feed my dogs for really cheap. But, I have a severely chicken intolerant dog, so I have to be careful what I feed. I would have given Dr. Tim's a try but she can't eat any of his formulas.


----------



## bluebo

stajbs said:


> Thanks bluebo, grandson will be ok, supposedly he will outgrow this problem, but it is mighty nerve wracking in the moment, and will be for another 3 years or so. I am also trying to study for a test on Tuesday and the unexpected always throws your schedule off, but I still have tomorrow. The other thing you will learn about me is that I hate, hate, hate conflict. lol
> *What is your grandsons name? I'll definitely pray for him. I'm starting to hate conflict, doesn't seem to get anyone anywhere lol. I will state my honest opinions though!*
> I would suspect we will all have some input on the results of Dr Tims formulas as time passes here. I currently know some folks who are very happy with it in their rotation. Some alternate his formulas exclusively...many different feeding styles out there that's for sure.
> *I would certainly try dr Tim's if it was available locally but just like any diet, it will have it imperfections lol. People are looking for a catch all in dog nutrition but what they haven't figured out is that there is no such thing.
> Some dogs do excellent on a specific diet and others just don't...*


Good vibes for you and your family...


----------



## bluebo

DaViking said:


> In all honesty I am not Dr. Tim's top fan on DFC simply because it is not available where I live. Others know much more about the food than I do. But I am active in several performance dog circles and hear only good things about the food. Can't think of anyone who was openly disappointed actually. That combined with common sense and knowledge gained over many years helping owners and handlers with nutritional issues makes me pretty certain that Dr. Tim's is a very good


I'm not his top fan either... I just hear a lot of good things and would certainly be willing to try it!


----------



## stajbs

Bluebo, thanks for the prayers for my grandson, his name is Lawson, he will be 3 on Sept. 17. He will likely be released tomorrow, and the little bugger just gave his doctor and nurse a hard time because they wanted the most accurate temp reading on him and did it rectally.. he let them know he was not appreciative of that. He is returning to his normal spunky willfull self thankfully. 

I have to totally agree there is no catch all in the field of dog nutrition that works for all dogs. Whether it be kibble, cooking, BARF, PMR etc. Each dog is different and responds differently to diet. I still prefer variety for my remaining two seniors. I remember when the whole crew(never more than 6 at a time) could eat the same thing, then as each aged, and we learned more we began improving on their quality of diet. My senior girl eats the most variety, she has a cast iron digestion and does well on some raw, cooked and about 1/3 kibble that is rotational between FROMM, Acana and occasionally Orijen at this time. My boy is getting as much variety as he can tolerate but we cook for him entirely. I am scared to death to give him any raw, despite knowing many people here would happily try to help me get past that, he is doing well, and looks good and has good lab results at 14 years old. Any new dog which comes along I may very well try PMR all the way, or then again I may do variety, don't know and don't have to decide as yet. I'm all for people feeding the best quality they can afford and feel comfortable with, be that raw or kibble, cooking.....


----------



## InkedMarie

I'd try Dr. Tim's for one of mine. Outside of frequent, large poops on anything other than Darwin's pre made, her only issue is a dull, dry coat. We,re just starting Brothers kibble for her; if no improvement, I may try this. Sjbs, I hope your grandson will be ok


----------



## stajbs

Thanks InkedMarie, he is back home today. Planning for his third birthday on 9/17/12. Party on Sunday to celebrate his 6 weeks early entry into this world. At least he should be fine to enjoy some fun with his little cousins and the rest of the family. Appreciate the kind words of support for my favorite little man.


----------



## DaViking

CavePaws said:


> I disagree on two points you made.
> 
> 1. Beet pulp does not contain "no sugar". It contains less sugar than Beets themselves, which are high in sugar.
> 2. Beet pulp is absolutely not essential to good digestion. I don't eat it and my dogs don't eat it and we have iron stomachs.


Sorry, I didn't see this until now.

1) "sugar removed" is pretty clear. If there is any residue left I do not think that amount to any energy worth talking about. Do share if you have any other info?
2) I didn't say you or your dogs have to eat beet pulp. You eat what ever fiber you like. I said part of dietary fiber' role (in kibble) is to provide fuel for good bacteria in the digestive system and some products also directly prohibits growth of certain pathogens. In kibble with a slightly longer transit time I'd say prebiotic effects are essential. As Monster's Dad already provided info on, beet pulp is proven as a very good alternative as dietary fiber. If you are looking for conclusive evidence that say dogs fed food with beet pulp live longer than those fed food with different prebiotic action the answer is, there is no such evidence, at least not to my knowledge. Most foods have prebiotic effects, including cheap crap, intentional or at random.


----------



## imthemonkey

I wanted to try the new grain free but i add water to the kibble. Citric Acid, water and bloat still worries me. Even if it isn't accurate information i dont know if i could live with myself if it does happen. I wish companies would cater to my insecurities..


----------



## dr tim

This is quite a long thread that I just read through and am open to any questions. After reading through it all, I am not sure what there might be for me to try and answer except a few thoughts.

I have not recruited a posse but it makes me feel like a western sheriff. I do appreciate the loyalty and civility of fans of our foods. Our company intent is not to bring down other companies to make ours appear better than it is, we believe the proof is in the pudding-the food. All I ask of this so called "posse" is to be civil with other folks, please. Let's continue a dialogue of learning so folks can better choose what is best for their animals, regardless of the brand they pick. I am a veterinarian that practices full time and my intent is still to allow for better health of the animal, be it on the exam table in the hospital or a dog eating the best nutrition the owner can provide according to their lifestyle, budget, etc.

Their is a lot of misleading and confusing claims with pet foods in the marketplace. We tried and moved on from 5 other pet food manufacturing plants before settling on the one we use now for a reason, not because of cost. They do fine for others but was not what I looking for. We have also tried to be transparent and share information when people ask or have it on our website. Some info I haven't listed on the website yet because I just have not had time but hope to do so soon. The percentage of protein supplied by animal sources is one example and is a important part of what makes our food what it is. A variety of animal sources to balance out the amino acid profile is the approach, vegetable proteins are not. If you want a concenttrated source of vegetable proteins you would need pea protein or something like that listed. Reference to field peas or even potatoes are primarily included for a starch source to hold the kibble together, not for the protein portion of it. Higher protein inclusion type plant sources tend to bem, but not all, corn, concentrated gluten meals, etc.

A great deal of innovation in the last 10 years in the nutrtion field has come from working with sled dogs. Many companies have had studies utilizing these amazing animals and deriving information that can be applied to the dogs that are not running across Alaska. I have seen this firsthand and have taken those applications and based our diets on those principles.

People do get pretty revved up on this forum as they are passionate about their pets, I get it. There are also some really good sites through the USDA to better understand how much of each nutrient is in each food item-that is how we can figure out these protein inclusion percentages, etc. Take the recipe and do the math. Can't share my double ultra secret recipes on line, though, but many have been pretty darn good at reading the labels.

That being said, fire any questions my way and I will do my best to answer them as best I can.


----------



## domika

dr tim said:


> Our company intent is not to bring down other companies to make ours appear better than it is, we believe the proof is in the pudding-the food. All I ask of this so called "posse" is to be civil with other folks, please. Let's continue a dialogue of learning so folks can better choose what is best for their animals, regardless of the brand they pick. I am a veterinarian that practices full time and my intent is still to allow for better health of the animal, be it on the exam table in the hospital or a dog eating the best nutrition the owner can provide according to their lifestyle, budget, etc.


That's all I ever wanted


----------



## monster'sdad

imthemonkey said:


> I wanted to try the new grain free but i add water to the kibble. Citric Acid, water and bloat still worries me. Even if it isn't accurate information i dont know if i could live with myself if it does happen. I wish companies would cater to my insecurities..


Two points, 1) Adding water to kibble can INCREASE bloat risk and 2) There is no truth to the initial findings of the first Purdue study that citric acid plays a role. Other findings were also found to be wrong, like using raised bowls. In the end the researchers found that there are only a few things you can do, like not using raised bowls and slowing the dog down.

So don't worry and there is no need to wet kibble. Dry kibble slows the eating process which is the most important thing you can do with a bloat prone breed.


----------



## SaharaNight Boxers

monster'sdad said:


> Two points, 1) Adding water to kibble can INCREASE bloat risk and 2) There is no truth to the initial findings of the first Purdue study that citric acid plays a role. Other findings were also found to be wrong, like using raised bowls. In the end the researchers found that there are only a few things you can do, like not using raised bowls and slowing the dog down.
> 
> So don't worry and there is no need to wet kibble. Dry kibble slows the eating process which is the most important thing you can do with a bloat prone breed.


Wetting kibble helps break it down. To me that lessens the chance of gas build up. And wetting slows some down.


----------



## mheath0429

dr tim said:


> This is quite a long thread that I just read through and am open to any questions. After reading through it all, I am not sure what there might be for me to try and answer except a few thoughts.
> 
> I have not recruited a posse but it makes me feel like a western sheriff. I do appreciate the loyalty and civility of fans of our foods. Our company intent is not to bring down other companies to make ours appear better than it is, we believe the proof is in the pudding-the food. All I ask of this so called "posse" is to be civil with other folks, please. Let's continue a dialogue of learning so folks can better choose what is best for their animals, regardless of the brand they pick. I am a veterinarian that practices full time and my intent is still to allow for better health of the animal, be it on the exam table in the hospital or a dog eating the best nutrition the owner can provide according to their lifestyle, budget, etc.
> 
> Their is a lot of misleading and confusing claims with pet foods in the marketplace. We tried and moved on from 5 other pet food manufacturing plants before settling on the one we use now for a reason, not because of cost. They do fine for others but was not what I looking for. We have also tried to be transparent and share information when people ask or have it on our website. Some info I haven't listed on the website yet because I just have not had time but hope to do so soon. The percentage of protein supplied by animal sources is one example and is a important part of what makes our food what it is. A variety of animal sources to balance out the amino acid profile is the approach, vegetable proteins are not. If you want a concenttrated source of vegetable proteins you would need pea protein or something like that listed. Reference to field peas or even potatoes are primarily included for a starch source to hold the kibble together, not for the protein portion of it. Higher protein inclusion type plant sources tend to bem, but not all, corn, concentrated gluten meals, etc.
> 
> A great deal of innovation in the last 10 years in the nutrtion field has come from working with sled dogs. Many companies have had studies utilizing these amazing animals and deriving information that can be applied to the dogs that are not running across Alaska. I have seen this firsthand and have taken those applications and based our diets on those principles.
> 
> People do get pretty revved up on this forum as they are passionate about their pets, I get it. There are also some really good sites through the USDA to better understand how much of each nutrient is in each food item-that is how we can figure out these protein inclusion percentages, etc. Take the recipe and do the math. Can't share my double ultra secret recipes on line, though, but many have been pretty darn good at reading the labels.
> 
> That being said, fire any questions my way and I will do my best to answer them as best I can.


Hi Dr. Tim!

I have a few questions for you..

First of all, what do you feed your dogs? Meat, kibble, canned or a combination?

Second, where were you trained in nutrition? (This is not me being snippy, I am truly interested)

Also, thank you for your post. I feel that at times, people do get very carried away. I'm sure we are all guilty of this, but I feel that it's completely unnecessary to call someone stupid or attack them as a person. I appreciate you trying to reign in the posse


----------



## dr tim

Hello MHeath;

Looks like you own some northern breed dogs yourself. Great dogs.

We typically feed dry only and then will start to bring meat into the mix later in training, depending on what we are looking at racing that year. If it is a serious year we will do meat and kibble from fall through winter. Beef is the usual meat source we utilize.

As to training, this has been an on the job training. Vet schools do not offer much as to nutrition training for small animals in many of the schools, some are better than others. I began working with racing sled dogs 20 years ago with no knowledge of nutrition and watched how important it was to allow for ful performance and analysed what worked, worked with folks that had great knowledge in this arena and picked their minds. Lots of seminars, reading, trial and error with my own kennel, racing in many parts of the world with mushers that all have different ways of approaching nutrition and having several of the best nutritionists around to help work with our diets have all added to the knowledge base. I am not a board certified nutritionist, to make sure you understand that. My experiances come from working directly in the arena of sporting dogs, not a conceptual one, and running a very busy small animal practice for over 20 years. Hope this helps.


----------



## mheath0429

There is nothing quite like a northern breed. 

I am not super involved in sledding and sporting - we are starting conformation. My pup, Cato has his first show next week. We will be working towards his WPD title, but, I'd like to champion him out first. We will see. All of the showing is very new to me. 

Thanks for being so honest, I appreciate that. I don't necessarily disagree with Kibble, I just don't think it is right for my dogs. I have an incredibly chicken intolerant female and it is very hard to find kibble that is void of Chicken, including chicken fats. Why don't you make a food that uses a different protein source?

Would you suggest your food for dogs who aren't working dogs?


----------



## dr tim

Yes. we took applications from the food meant for an very atheltic animal and used them in foods for dogs that don't necessarily run across Alaska. Meet their metabolic needs correctly and you can greatly improve the health of an animal. I see it on my exam table every day with dogs that are on our all life stages food.

For 15 years I averaged 1500 lbs of beef through my kennel of dogs and still use meat-it is a great addition or sole source of a diet, if done correctly. Again, lifestyle and budget don't always allow for that so I took our "witches brew" of raw plus supplements and combined into a kibble recipe. With doing that I can feed much less meat in the winter but cannot get away from meat in races like the Iditarod, etc.


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## kevin bradley

Tim,

Why the inclusion of Glucosamine? Everything I've read says this is nothing but an advertising gimmick?

Do you dispute this? (for the record, I don't have a position. Well, actually I do... I'm probably skeptical that Glucosamine in any qty does much good. And the recent findings disclosed yesterday on Fish Oil supplements tells a similar story).


----------



## dr tim

Hey Kevin;

I would definitely dispute findings that say fish oil doesn't do any good. Glucosamine does seem to help in some dogs, not always every one. How much does one need, say, for an arthritic animal will take you past what can be put into a pet food affordably, so you need to top dress it. I do believe in both and not an advertising gimmick in our use of it.

There are so many studies on the benefit of fish oil, it is endless. Huge difference between omega 3 fatty acids from ocean fish versus the omega 3's from flaxseed as well. I can send you a link to a great overview study on it from the nutrtionist at Texas A and M, if you wish.

Have to see what yesterdays news is about fish oil as well. Always look at the methodology of a study as it can be very interesting, especially in conjunction with who funded said study. I am a skeptic as well, Kevin.


----------



## DaViking

dr tim said:


> There are so many studies on the benefit of fish oil, it is endless. Huge difference between omega 3 fatty acids from ocean fish versus the omega 3's from flaxseed as well. I can send you a link to a great overview study on it from the nutrtionist at Texas A and M, if you wish.


I'd be interested in that as well


----------



## dr tim

Therapeutic use of fish oils in companion animals
John E. Bauer
Journal of the American Veterinary Medical Association, December 1, 2011, Vol. 239, No. 11 , Pages 1441-1451
(doi: 10.2460/javma.239.11.1441)


----------



## kevin bradley

Tim,

I was referencing the news on Fish Oil that came out yesterday. Believe the study came from the Journal of the American Medical Association and concluded that O-3's do nothing to help your Heart(I'm paraphrasing as I don't have the study at my fingertips). I cannot TELL you how many articles I've seen on the benefits of Fish Oil. 

Its not specific to what we are discussing but it does relate.... Summary--consumers are getting to the point where they have no clue what to believe. 

Boron, Chromium Picolinate.... those were a couple other beauties that came and went that the health industry was peddling. Its just a joke. And I fear the Dog food industry is similar in many respects.

Note-I'm not attacking Tim. Frankly I think its pretty impressive that he comes out to address our questions.


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## dr tim

I am with you on that, Kevin. I believe a lot of the pet food marketing is meant to confuse or directly align with human nutritional understanding-how to feed ourselves. Why not try to teach people how the dog is meant to be fed? Because it takes more effort versus just utilizing our understanding of how to feed ourselves and then just applying that to canines or felines. Not all companies are like that but many are, unfortunately, IMO.

Dogs are not little people and cats are not little dogs.

Doesn't Mr. Hill's come on this forum to talk?


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## Unosmom

Well I got my order in today of the pursuit, granted not too happy with petflow.com, they send me 2-18 lb bags instead of a 44 lb bag. emailed them today and they are sending another 8 lb bag.


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## Liz

Unosmom

You would think if they were going to substitute they would at least make it the right weight. At least you have some to start with though.


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## Unosmom

well, they are going to send me another bag, but I don't really need it now, I still have probably 2 months worth of other food to finish since I feed 1/2 raw as well.


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## Liz

My aunt order from them - I am glad they are at least making it right.


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## InkedMarie

Unosmom said:


> Well I got my order in today of the pursuit, granted not too happy with petflow.com, they send me 2-18 lb bags instead of a 44 lb bag. emailed them today and they are sending another 8 lb bag.


Whoa, that would pi** me off. Someone else, on a forum, said they got food from them and it expired the following month. Not good.


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## Unosmom

the only reason I used them was because I had a $10 off coupon plus shipping was free. I prefer www.mrchewy.com, they also have cheaper prices.


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## imthemonkey

dr tim said:


> I am with you on that, Kevin. I believe a lot of the pet food marketing is meant to confuse or directly align with human nutritional understanding-how to feed ourselves. Why not try to teach people how the dog is meant to be fed? Because it takes more effort versus just utilizing our understanding of how to feed ourselves and then just applying that to canines or felines. Not all companies are like that but many are, unfortunately, IMO.
> 
> Dogs are not little people and cats are not little dogs.
> 
> Doesn't Mr. Hill's come on this forum to talk?


Dr Tim, what do you think about the concerns with citric acid and bloat?


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## dr tim

Im the monkey, I honestly do not believe it is a reason to be concerned. I have not come across any research pointing it out as a concern but will do some looking to see if there is anything new. Most of the bloat cases I have treated over the years in practice seem to be related to getting into pasta dishes at picnics, feeding soon after exercise or just before and the dog is not used to it. Something with starch is usually in their stomach when we empty and flush it but isn't always dog food.

Here is a very good article by Dr. Aldrich;

http://www.petfoodindustry.com/Default.aspx?pageid=5306&id=5536&terms=citric+acid


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## imthemonkey

Has anyone started transitioning over to Dr. Tims yet?


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## monster'sdad

imthemonkey said:


> Has anyone started transitioning over to Dr. Tims yet?


Yes several years ago. I really love the food and respect the professionals that use it. When it first hit the scene it was primarily sold in Alaska but now is widely available thanks to Petflow and Mr. Chewy. It has always been available in the mid-west and I understand most of the east coast now. I love the fact you can buy 44lb bags.

I have found Pursuit to be appropriate for any dog despite the high caloric content and suggest that especially if you have a multi-dog household. Kinesis is great as well especially if you have a large breed that is prone to gaining weight. Momentum is a special purpose food and that would be appropriate for very active small breeds like working terriers or heavily trained hunting and sport dogs. 

These are simple chicken and brown rice/oat formulas with high meat components, 7 sources, and porcine plasma which is a proven digestive aid and immune booster.

They are also processed differently at lower temperatures so that the carbohydrate portion of the food has higher digestive rates.

I think Pursuit is probably the best food sold in the US.


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## kevin bradley

I have a 44lb bag of Pursuit on the way.

Maybe Tim can answer this one... why buy Kinesis? Why not buy Pursuit which gives you about 10% more Kcal's per bag? If you have a Dog prone to weight gain, just feed less? Am I crazy? 

Seems to me this applies to any food. If you have a food brand/family, I'd always buy the biggest calorie food..esp if the ingredients are similar or the same(though they must be a bit different if the calories are varied).


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## Unosmom

I started transitioning, but he'll be eating 1/2 tims and 1/2 horizon legacy for the next month since I have a 50 lb bin filled up, I'll update once I feed dr tims exclusively for couple months. I will still add raw, especially bones since Uno's teeth start to get plaque buildup after few days not to mention stinky breath.


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## dr tim

I look at foods based on the purpose-like an active dog. Those foods, IMO, should have a different fiber composition, omega 3 fatty acid profile, certain vit and min in a higher percentage, higher fat to name a few things. Won't hurt a dog that isn't active that eats it at all, it is just built for an active animal and the stresses those dogs endure. The food that is truly meant for an active dog takes those things into account and the ingredients are meant to minimize the stresses on their bodies.

This is why people notice that when they work their dog on a food that might have a higher protein percentage but is not meant for an active dog that it doesn't always lead to a good stool-just one example of what the owner might see.


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## Losech

dr tim said:


> This is why people notice that when they work their dog on a food that might have a higher protein percentage but is not meant for an active dog that it doesn't always lead to a good stool-just one example of what the owner might see.


That is interesting, and not something I have really thought of before. 

I'd like to eventually try your food, but at the moment I've got a big stash hoarded for trials. Once I get through all those though, I will most likely give it a shot.


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## kevin bradley

dr tim said:


> I look at foods based on the purpose-like an active dog. Those foods, IMO, should have a different fiber composition, omega 3 fatty acid profile, certain vit and min in a higher percentage, higher fat to name a few things. Won't hurt a dog that isn't active that eats it at all, it is just built for an active animal and the stresses those dogs endure. The food that is truly meant for an active dog takes those things into account and the ingredients are meant to minimize the stresses on their bodies.
> 
> This is why people notice that when they work their dog on a food that might have a higher protein percentage but is not meant for an active dog that it doesn't always lead to a good stool-just one example of what the owner might see.


Thats what I thought.

So when we rate a foods "value"... what we should really do is multiply the servings by the Kcal/cup?... All other things being equal, that would provide you with the best "bang for your buck."

In this example, your Momentum is easily a better value per bag than your Kinesis as it has about 10% higher caloric content. 

Don't raise your price on Momentum now, Tim


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## riddick4811

Right now I'm feeding Native Level 3 puppy. But was thinking of trying something else and was leaning toward Redpaw X series, but Dr. Tims looks to be more affordable and comes in bigger bags. Especially since feeding a Greyhound, Greyhound puppy and Boston Terrier are going through almost 10 cups of Native a day. How big are the kibble pieces? They all like the tiny pieces of the Native pup. 

The Frenchie, JRT mix and Dogo couldn't eat it so I still have to buy another food like I'm doing now. Darn dogs eat better than I do.


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## dr tim

Depends on the food. The Kinesis and Pursuit are about 8 mm wide, the Momentum is about half that. Little dogs eat bigger kibble fine and I think it might help their teeth some.

Do my best on the prices, Kevin. I do have to pay for my fleet of sports cars, though.


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## kevin bradley

Got my first bag yesterday Tim. Just curious... didn't know your food comes in plain white bags. Had a sticker on the bag with logo/ingredients/info... Was just curious if you guys ran out of bags.


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## dr tim

We did plain white plastic bags for years with a sticker. We will maintain the 44 lb kennel sized bag in that utilitarian look but the full designed bags will be used for 5,15 and 30lbs.

My thought was always to put the money inside the bag, not on the outside. In order for retailers and distributors to pay attention the full design is needed and they look pretty darn good and really convey what we are about.

Let me know how your dog does after some time.


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## riddick4811

Thanks, I ordered a 44lb bag of Pursuit to try once we finish this bag of Native. Petflow is getting me in trouble with their trials so I had to order something else to qualify for free shipping.


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## kevin bradley

dr tim said:


> We did plain white plastic bags for years with a sticker. We will maintain the 44 lb kennel sized bag in that utilitarian look but the full designed bags will be used for 5,15 and 30lbs.
> 
> My thought was always to put the money inside the bag, not on the outside. In order for retailers and distributors to pay attention the full design is needed and they look pretty darn good and really convey what we are about.
> 
> Let me know how your dog does after some time.


Oh Tim, I didn't mean to sound insulting. The bag quality is great... actually looks really cool... The big bag just looked different than the pictures online. Cracked it open right when I got it and the guys all loved it. Need to work thru some other stuff before going completely to your food though. I'll probably start working it in 50/50 in the next 2 weeks.


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## 1605

kevin bradley said:


> Got my first bag yesterday Tim. Just curious... didn't know your food comes in plain white bags. Had a sticker on the bag with logo/ingredients/info... Was just curious if you guys ran out of bags.


Kevin,

I'm sure many of us here would be very interested in you keeping us apprised of how your dogs do on Dr. Tims.

As you know, I have two high energy GSPs that are involved in field work as well as obedience. And, while they are doing excellently on their current dry food, I'm not adverse to looking at alternatives as long as they are comparable in terms of ingredients and quality.

Thanks,


----------



## Penny & Maggie's Mom

Dr. Tim..... Are any of the ingredients of DSM's OVN sourced from China?


----------



## meggels

Which dr Tim formula would I want for Abbie? She gets a walk a day and gets to run around but I wouldn't consider her "highly active".


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## dr tim

Nothing sourced from China as to vitamins, etc and Kinesis is what I would recc for Abbie


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## Penny & Maggie's Mom

dr tim said:


> Nothing sourced from China as to vitamins, etc and Kinesis is what I would recc for Abbie


SUPER! That's a real rarity I'm afraid. I have Maggie on the Kinesis and she's doing really well. She was my "test"... if any of our crew is going to have a prob it would be her. Penny and Cody will finish up what we have left of the other food and join her in a few weeks. Thanks so much.


----------



## monster'sdad

Penny & Maggie's Mom said:


> SUPER! That's a real rarity I'm afraid. I have Maggie on the Kinesis and she's doing really well. She was my "test"... if any of our crew is going to have a prob it would be her. Penny and Cody will finish up what we have left of the other food and join her in a few weeks. Thanks so much.


I am not surprised. I have a friend that swore his dog couldn't eat chicken and he said his dog is a new dog on Pursuit.


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## riddick4811

Well I just opened my bag of Pursuit and it didn't go too well. I had about 5lbs of Native left so I figured I would mix it over the next few days. Keenan the puppy picked out all the Native and left the Pursuit and Ronon who is normally a chow hound turned and walked away from the bowl.  

I guess we will try again tomorrow. Cause they got 44lbs they will eat!


----------



## Penny & Maggie's Mom

Dang, Petflow needs to restock their Dr. Tim's. They only have Momentum and the grain free Kinesis. I wanted to order another big bag of the regular Kinesis. Some of the other online sites don't carry the 44 lb bags. : (


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## jn9541

Dr. Tim I've been using active pursuit and love it for my pitbulls with medium activity levels. Great stool beautiful coats, and I just got a foster that came from a neglect and fighting situation. She had awful everything. No muscle tone, horrible coat, brittle nails. One month later and shes a different dog! My problem right now is petflow is out of the 44lb bags that I LOVE, do you have any other suppliers that sell the larger bag? I go through dog food like crazy and the 44lb bags are not only convenient but cost effective.


----------



## monster'sdad

jn9541 said:


> Dr. Tim I've been using active pursuit and love it for my pitbulls with medium activity levels. Great stool beautiful coats, and I just got a foster that came from a neglect and fighting situation. She had awful everything. No muscle tone, horrible coat, brittle nails. One month later and shes a different dog! My problem right now is petflow is out of the 44lb bags that I LOVE, do you have any other suppliers that sell the larger bag? I go through dog food like crazy and the 44lb bags are not only convenient but cost effective.


I just checked they have 44's but not the smaller bags. I have a friend that got Mr. Chewy to give free shipping on the 30lb bags and they did. I don't think the per lb cost is much different.


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## dr tim

Hello JN;

I will have to check on the larger bags being in stock as they have been selling quickly. Sorry for the inconveniance but the 30 lb bags are available currently. Demand caught us off guard but the shipping should be free on that size. Watch for promos coming up with them as well.


----------



## jn9541

monster'sdad said:


> I just checked they have 44's but not the smaller bags. I have a friend that got Mr. Chewy to give free shipping on the 30lb bags and they did. I don't think the per lb cost is much different.


I'm sorry little lost..... who has the 44lb bags?


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## monster'sdad

jn9541 said:


> I'm sorry little lost..... who has the 44lb bags?


Petflow shows the 44's . That is the only size left.


----------



## jn9541

dr tim said:


> Hello JN;
> 
> I will have to check on the larger bags being in stock as they have been selling quickly. Sorry for the inconveniance but the 30 lb bags are available currently. Demand caught us off guard but the shipping should be free on that size. Watch for promos coming up with them as well.


They had it in the other formulas but not the pursuit active.... but have no fear talked to a petflow rep and they got more of them in stock over the weekend. Got my tracking number today so I only have to buy a small 10lb bag of another brand.


----------



## Penny & Maggie's Mom

Still not showing ANY of the all life stages Kinesis. : (


----------



## Cookie

kevin bradley said:


> Any group of people that is this argumentative and willing to fight and go at it so much...
> 
> I can't help but wonder about their food. You win, Tim's army. You finally broke me down. You all either know your stuff or put on one helluva show. I'll know soon as I'm ordering some from Petflow tonight.
> 
> There are 2 points that do raise my eyebrow on Tim...
> 
> 1. I've addressed this before--his dropping the hammer on the Grainfree craze in the last couple years... then I see he comes out with a Grainfree line. I certainly don't care that he offers grainfree foods. It just smelled a bit hypocritical.
> 
> 2. Glucosamine in his food. I've never ready anyone say that Glucosamine was anything but a giant scam as an ingredient and that any time you see it in food, it is nothing more than fancy marketing. I do wonder why Tim would stick this in his food?...unless there IS a reason for it. From what I've read, the entire Glucosomine thing, even for HUMANs is highly debatable and may actually do nothing to help any living creatures joints.


I know that dog food manufacturers have jumped on the Glucosamine bandwagon, but it is good for joints, but we feed our dog glucosamine tablets daily due to her fused front paw and likely arthritis.


----------



## dr tim

Just talked to Petflow and it has been a glitch in their system that they fixed regarding the seeming lack of availability. They do have it in stock and thanks for being patient.


----------



## Penny & Maggie's Mom

Now I'm seeing 35 lb bags but not the 44 pounders (Kinesis). Those bigger bags are sure nice... hope they get them back before I need to reorder.


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## riddick4811

I've been feeding the Pursuit for a little over 2 weeks and I'm not happy with it. Puppy is a fight to get him to eat it and he is losing weight. I can barely get him to eat 2 1/2 cups a day. Ronon has gas and loose stool and we cut down from 3 1/2 cups he was eating to 2 cups to see if that would help with his poop- still loose stool and gas and he is dropping weight. Jack flat out refuses the food. He walks away from the bowl and when he figures he isn't getting anything else, will pick at it and spit it out. He is barely eating 1/2 cup a day so I'm not even going to bother feeding the rest of the bag.  And these are not picky dogs. This is the first food I've found they really don't like. And they eat just about anything I put in front of them and they would prefer carrots to this food.


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## dr tim

Well, let's look at what you wrote;

You fed 3 1/2 cups and then down to 2. 3 1/2 cups would be enough for a hunting dog working hard all day long or a sled dog. Overfeeding will cause a dog to lose weight, not gain weight as eating too much is just overwhelms the ability to digest it all. This would speed up the transit time, escape complete digestion and lead to soft stools and gas. Dogs will eat a lot initially on a new food, over do it and not go back-the idea of too much of a good thing, like eating 3 lbs of crab legs at a sitting and not wanting it again for a month because it just does not seem inviting anymore. Maybe they don't like the fish base of the food, I am not sure, but palatibility has not been an issue very often.

So, when a dog has soft stool, what I recc is to do this; cut the food back by 50% for 3 days and see if the stools firm up. If they do firm up-overfeeding is usually the culprit. If they don't, the food just does not jive for them, all else being equal and no underlying health worries.

One thing also with an energy dense food is that dogs will often eat what they need calorically and owners will get nervous on the overall volume going in as it will be less than they are used to. Can't speak specifically for your 2 dogs but just the insight I can offer from afar. You can always email me direct at [email protected] for more advice.


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## riddick4811

dr tim said:


> Well, let's look at what you wrote;
> 
> You fed 3 1/2 cups and then down to 2. 3 1/2 cups would be enough for a hunting dog working hard all day long or a sled dog. Overfeeding will cause a dog to lose weight, not gain weight as eating too much is just overwhelms the ability to digest it all. This would speed up the transit time, escape complete digestion and lead to soft stools and gas. Dogs will eat a lot initially on a new food, over do it and not go back-the idea of too much of a good thing, like eating 3 lbs of crab legs at a sitting and not wanting it again for a month because it just does not seem inviting anymore. Maybe they don't like the fish base of the food, I am not sure, but palatibility has not been an issue very often.
> 
> So, when a dog has soft stool, what I recc is to do this; cut the food back by 50% for 3 days and see if the stools firm up. If they do firm up-overfeeding is usually the culprit. If they don't, the food just does not jive for them, all else being equal and no underlying health worries.
> 
> One thing also with an energy dense food is that dogs will often eat what they need calorically and owners will get nervous on the overall volume going in as it will be less than they are used to. Can't speak specifically for your 2 dogs but just the insight I can offer from afar. You can always email me direct at [email protected] for more advice.


He was eating 3 1/2 cups of Native Level 3. Then for 1 week 3 1/2 cups of Native mixed with Dr. Tims. Once we ran out of Native and just Dr. Tims, he started having loose stool. That is why I cut it back, but it did not help the loose stools. He was getting 1 1/2 cups AM, 2 cups PM. So I cut back to 1 cup AM and 1 1/2 cups PM. That didn't help, so I tried 1 cup AM, 1 cup PM. Still loose stool and he started dropping weight. Ribs started showing, but he still has smooshy stool. 

And it is 3 dogs, 1 adult Greyhound, 1 Puppy Greyhound and 1 Boston Terrier that do not like the food. They are not over eating, I have to force them almost to eat it. None of them like it. The puppy looks like crap on your food. He is a walking skeleton in just a week (and no he doesn't have worms). So right now they are eating raw until I can get new kibble for them. Have had minor issues with this food or that food, but never had a real issue until now. These are my problem free dogs with cast iron stomachs and no allergies. I would hate to see what my 3 problem dogs would like on this food.  Only reason I wanted to try something new was to have multiple animal protein sources instead of mainly chicken. So I ordered some Victor Hi Pro Plus and will see how that goes.


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## dr tim

That is unfortunate. I wish you better luck with the next food.


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## mheath0429

dr tim said:


> That is unfortunate. I wish you better luck with the next food.


I admire your ability to stay calm. 

Question - what can you tell me about GMO and your ingredients?


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## monster'sdad

mheath0429 said:


> I admire your ability to stay calm.
> 
> Question - what can you tell me about GMO and your ingredients?


He can answer on this too but common GMO ingredients in animal foods are soy and corn. There are no GMO varieties of rice, oats or barley. Some varieties of canola are from GMO strains but canola was not created originally by genetic engineering. It was developed from manual cross polination.

Because of the EU Certification, if GMO ingredients were used the bags destined for Europe would have to be labelled as such. I sincerely doubt there are any GMO ingredients in the Ohio Pet Facility because of the logistical difficulties.

I do know from digging around that the chicken meal is from chickens that are antibiotic free, hormones too, but all chickens are hormone free, like pork. Also, this meal is definitely not denatured because the low ash content tells me the meat was not stripped by machine, rather by hand.


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## InkedMarie

dr tim said:


> That is unfortunate. I wish you better luck with the next food.


This is one reason I hate it when people say that a good is bad because their dog didn't do well on it. If it's a food with good ingredients, then it's a good food. Not all dogs do well on all foods. Now, if we're talking Beneful or Alpo, I don't care how "good" a dog is doing on it, it's not a good food.


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## dr tim

There are no GMO ingredients, including the canola oil. Monsters'dad is correct on his investigating. That Iams commercial on animal protein is interesting. 50% more animal protein than what is my question.


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## riddick4811

It may very well be a good food, but I don't consider it one based on my experience. I will not recommend it to anyone nor try it again on another dog. It may work wonderful for some dogs and that is why we have such a variety b/c not every food is going to work for every dog. But for me, if more than one dog doesn't do well on a food, I don't use it. If it had been Casper for instance, I wouldn't have blamed the food, Casper has issues with lots of foods. It didn't work for dogs that have eaten everything from Diamond Hi Energy to Orijen and done fine over the years. I was actually really shocked when Ronon refused the kibble, he is a bit of a gluten. His hunger finally won out and he ate it. Sometimes I think dogs do know best and then they don't want to eat something, there is a reason and shouldn't be made to. So I will not force them again. If they don't eat a food, I won't force the issue. 

I think Jack's issue is the shape of the kibble. It is hard kibble and being more round than flat, it is harder for him and his little smooshface to eat it. He likes flat kibbles or really tiny ones. Probably also the reason the puppy doesn't like it. They liked the small pieces Native had. I have a bag of Now GF kitten food that the cat won't eat and they are eating it as it the same size as the Native kibble and protein/fat about the same until my new kibble comes since it had to be ordered. And their poop is fine on the cat food.


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## herl

With my dogs if I switch the food up too much they may take a little while to return to a balanced gut. I see that on 8/13 you had the dogs on EB Meadow Feast & Nutrisource and then substituted Acana for the Nutrisource due to weight loss on 9/3. On 9/30 you finished the Acana and went to Native L3, for the puppy at least and perhaps for the others as well. On 10/7 you started feeding Dr. Tim's and now on 10/19 ordered Victor Hi Pro Plus. I've gotten varying results with different foods, some switched over better than others, but I've not used that many foods in 8 weeks time period. Hope you find one they all like!


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## InkedMarie

riddick4811 said:


> It may very well be a good food, but I don't consider it one based on my experience. I will not recommend it to anyone nor try it again on another dog. It may work wonderful for some dogs and that is why we have such a variety b/c not every food is going to work for every dog. But for me, if more than one dog doesn't do well on a food, I don't use it. If it had been Casper for instance, I wouldn't have blamed the food, Casper has issues with lots of foods. It didn't work for dogs that have eaten everything from Diamond Hi Energy to Orijen and done fine over the years. I was actually really shocked when Ronon refused the kibble, he is a bit of a gluten. His hunger finally won out and he ate it. Sometimes I think dogs do know best and then they don't want to eat something, there is a reason and shouldn't be made to. So I will not force them again. If they don't eat a food, I won't force the issue.
> 
> I think Jack's issue is the shape of the kibble. It is hard kibble and being more round than flat, it is harder for him and his little smooshface to eat it. He likes flat kibbles or really tiny ones. Probably also the reason the puppy doesn't like it. They liked the small pieces Native had. I have a bag of Now GF kitten food that the cat won't eat and they are eating it as it the same size as the Native kibble and protein/fat about the same until my new kibble comes since it had to be ordered. And their poop is fine on the cat food.


Why would you NOT recommend a food, that has good ingredients, just because your dogs didn't do well on it? That doesn't make any sense to me.


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## SaharaNight Boxers

InkedMarie said:


> Why would you NOT recommend a food, that has good ingredients, just because your dogs didn't do well on it? That doesn't make any sense to me.


I really don't understand how Dr. Tim's has that great of ingredients honestly. I'm not really impressed. The grain free is better, but the grain inclusive really don't seem that great.


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## InkedMarie

SaharaNight Boxers said:


> I really don't understand how Dr. Tim's has that great of ingredients honestly. I'm not really impressed. The grain free is better, but the grain inclusive really don't seem that great.


When I say good ingredients, I'm speaking that it's not a food such as Alpo, Beneful, etc. I haven't looked much at the food but when I glanced, there was no reason I wouldn't try it to add to my rotation. 
It just bothers me to hear people say a food isn't good when they say that only because their dog doesn't do good on it.


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## herl

When I look at ingredients, I'm looking at the quality of those ingredients. For instance, low ash meal, vitamin premix source, whole eggs etc. I'm looking at where the protein is coming from & % fiber. I'm watching for ingredient splitting; pea fiber, peas, followed by pea protein, etc... My dogs do fine with some grain, it's potato & pea that I believe was their issue in most of the grain free formulas. When I research a food, I'm looking at the manufacturer as well now. Granted, any manufacturer can have an issue and deal with it in an honest manner. However, when a manufacturer has repeated issues, even after being on the receiving end of an FDA warning letter, that rules them out for me. Any brand that would produce their food in poorly managed plant is not the brand for me. Also an automatic reject is any brand that tells me that my questions cannot be answered because it is "proprietary" information. 

So for me, Dr. Tim's looks to be a good quality food relative to the quality of ingredients, the transparency in stating the sourcing of the premix and the reputation of the manufacturer. The real test for any food is how well the dogs thrive on it (or not). So, while many dogs thrive on Evo, Orijen or Nature's Variety, mine did not. I don't think less of those foods, clearly they are good choices. They just weren't the right combo for my dogs. Just an opinion, take it for what it's worth. Sometimes I feel like I've worked my way up from knowing nothing about dog food to now knowing next to nothing....LOL.


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## meggels

herl said:


> When I look at ingredients, I'm looking at the quality of those ingredients. For instance, low ash meal, vitamin premix source, whole eggs etc. I'm looking at where the protein is coming from & % fiber. I'm watching for ingredient splitting; pea fiber, peas, followed by pea protein, etc... My dogs do fine with some grain, it's potato & pea that I believe was their issue in most of the grain free formulas. When I research a food, I'm looking at the manufacturer as well now. Granted, any manufacturer can have an issue and deal with it in an honest manner. However, when a manufacturer has repeated issues, even after being on the receiving end of an FDA warning letter, that rules them out for me. Any brand that would produce their food in poorly managed plant is not the brand for me. Also an automatic reject is any brand that tells me that my questions cannot be answered because it is "proprietary" information.
> 
> So for me, Dr. Tim's looks to be a good quality food relative to the quality of ingredients, the transparency in stating the sourcing of the premix and the reputation of the manufacturer. The real test for any food is how well the dogs thrive on it (or not). So, while many dogs thrive on Evo, Orijen or Nature's Variety, mine did not. I don't think less of those foods, clearly they are good choices. They just weren't the right combo for my dogs. Just an opinion, take it for what it's worth. Sometimes I feel like I've worked my way up from knowing nothing about dog food to now knowing next to nothing....LOL.


Very very well said!


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## mheath0429

I have to admit that this food is growing on me. Would I feed it? Well, no - but only because I will never feed kibble again. But I have recommended it to a few people who were looking at quality for a reasonable price. I don't necessarily like grains, but the food has high quality grains and meat. he hasn't sold out to Diamond and he willingly answers our questions...can't say that about any other companies.


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## monster'sdad

SaharaNight Boxers said:


> I really don't understand how Dr. Tim's has that great of ingredients honestly. I'm not really impressed. The grain free is better, but the grain inclusive really don't seem that great.


This is a "nutrient-based food", you like "ingredient-based foods". There is a big difference. I am sure Dr. Tim could have designed the label order so that three protein sources were listed first in a row rather than formulating the SEVEN concentrated proteins according to amino acid levels. It is very easy to take an amount of an ingredient and divide it by three for marketing purposes.

I am open minded, so when some of the foods you like better start showing up in competition I will be the first to give a thumbs up. 

I think when you evaluate foods you have to be more aware of what contributes what and the limitations and loopholes of labelling.

In the end, how much protein is contributed by all those "fresh" meats in Orijen? Really not much, maybe 2lbs per bag in the final product. If the meat is goosed to 90% water like is typical, it is probably less.

You mentioned the Petcurean GF, well that is what I am talking about. 34% protein, lots of "meat" or so it seems but look closer. Peas, Lentils and Chickpeas, all three dry ingredients and lots of wet meat ingredients. So that 34% is not what is seems. Peas, Lentil and Chickpeas boost the protein considerably and have multiples more protein than the brown rice and oats in Dr. Tim's. I am not saying it is a bad food, looks good actually, but don't be deceived. That food was made partially in the marketing department. That food has nowhere near the meat protein in Pursuit or Momentum, and 50% more ash and a level of phophorous I wouldn't use on the average pet.

So for many people, a "food stylist" is more important than a clinical nutritionist.


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## Jen1973

I have been browsing this forum for a while and after reading this, decided to join. I switched to Dr. Tim's food about 6 months ago and have had great results with both my 14 year old Hound mix, Chloe, and my 4 year old German Shorthaired Pointer, Max. Chloe looks phenomenal for a dog her age. She maintains an excellent weight, has good stools and is full of energy. She is 83# and eats 2.75 cups a day of the grain free. 

Max was always a hard keeper. I tried a bunch of foods with him and never could keep weight on him. He also had very loose stools. I switched him to Pursuit this year and he put on weight, and has good stools for the first time. He is 65# and eats 2-2.5c/day depending on how much exercise he has had. And, he finally eats without being coaxed which is a huge change.

Dr. Tim's food has worked very well for us. The dogs are healthy, have beautiful shiny coats and lots of energy. I greatly appreciate being to email Dr. Tim and ask questions. It's rare that you have access to the owner of the company. I also feel very comfortable with the quality of ingredients which is so important considering the slew of recalls in the recent past. 

I included a few pictures to show the condition of the dogs and also a couple of Max's recent wins in the show and obedience ring. Jen


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## InkedMarie

welcome to the forum, Jen, beautiful dogs!


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## BeagleCountry

Welcome Jen! Lovely dogs! Are you adding any supplements or using coat enhancing products?

Thank you.


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## Jen1973

Thanks Marie and Beagle!

Beagle- At this time, neither dogs get any supplements except Dasuquin for joint health.


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## SaharaNight Boxers

Do you use anything before going into the ring? I know there's a bunch of stuff normally used, color/coat enhancing shampoos/products, oils, chamois?


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## mheath0429

SaharaNight Boxers said:


> Do you use anything before going into the ring? I know there's a bunch of stuff normally used, color/coat enhancing shampoos/products, oils, chamois?


Who was this to?


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## meggels

SaharaNight Boxers said:


> Do you use anything before going into the ring? I know there's a bunch of stuff normally used, color/coat enhancing shampoos/products, oils, chamois?


Not for everyone lol. We would just wash the frenchies normally and spray them with a conditioner.


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## SaharaNight Boxers

mheath0429 said:


> Who was this to?


Jen1973. Guess I should've put that in there. 



meggels said:


> Not for everyone lol. We would just wash the frenchies normally and spray them with a conditioner.


Even Boxers get more than that! I guess the Frenchie I know doesn't get more than that too, thinking of it. On the whole even the "wash and wear" breeds really aren't wash and wear though I think. I'm sure you've seen all the stuff that others use though. I don't even want to think how much time it takes to groom and manage a coated dog!


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## meggels

SaharaNight Boxers said:


> Jen1973. Guess I should've put that in there.
> 
> 
> 
> Even Boxers get more than that! I guess the Frenchie I know doesn't get more than that too, thinking of it. On the whole even the "wash and wear" breeds really aren't wash and wear though I think. I'm sure you've seen all the stuff that others use though. I don't even want to think how much time it takes to groom and manage a coated dog!


Oh yeah, I've seen some interesting stuff lol. Mascara on the nose to fill it in, powdering the white a bit...but overall the ones I helped we're mostly wash and wear.


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## Jen1973

> Originally Posted by SaharaNight Boxers View Post
> Do you use anything before going into the ring? I know there's a bunch of stuff normally used, color/coat enhancing shampoos/products, oils, chamois?


Hi Sahara: I don't even give him a bath. In fact I cannot remember the last time I gave him a bath. If he is muddy, I wipe him down with a baby wipe or a wet washcloth. But basically no pre-show grooming. 

A lot of people trim whiskers, use products, etc but I don't believe in that. He is a sporting dog that is meant to work.


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## monster'sdad

Jen1973 said:


> Hi Sahara: I don't even give him a bath. In fact I cannot remember the last time I gave him a bath. If he is muddy, I wipe him down with a baby wipe or a wet washcloth. But basically no pre-show grooming.
> 
> A lot of people trim whiskers, use products, etc but I don't believe in that. He is a sporting dog that is meant to work.


Where is that show picture with the bales of straw? I can see the first is the Harrisburg show.

It lookes like the Finger Lakes show, in any event both shows are highly competitive events.


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## mheath0429

I have a wash and wear breed but its nothing like that - between powders, whitening and a whole mess of other things it takes hours to prepare their coat.


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## Jen1973

> Where is that show picture with the bales of straw? I can see the first is the Harrisburg show.
> 
> It lookes like the Finger Lakes show, in any event both shows are highly competitive events.


Good guess! It's Wine Country- Sampson State Park, NY.


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## riddick4811

herl said:


> With my dogs if I switch the food up too much they may take a little while to return to a balanced gut. I see that on 8/13 you had the dogs on EB Meadow Feast & Nutrisource and then substituted Acana for the Nutrisource due to weight loss on 9/3. On 9/30 you finished the Acana and went to Native L3, for the puppy at least and perhaps for the others as well. On 10/7 you started feeding Dr. Tim's and now on 10/19 ordered Victor Hi Pro Plus. I've gotten varying results with different foods, some switched over better than others, but I've not used that many foods in 8 weeks time period. Hope you find one they all like!


And you are stalking my post for what reason? I have more than one dog and foster as well. Several dogs have left my home since then too and not all of them were on the same food. I try out new foods a lot of times with fosters to see how they do. And not all of my dogs can eat the same food. I have young, high energy dogs and I have old dogs with slow metabolisms and allergies. So I feed them all differently depending on their needs. Right now I have no fosters and my roommate moved out last month taking 3 of the dogs, so I'm down to 6. 3 older dogs w/ allergies are eating Victor Ocean Blend, switched from NOW Large breed senior which I have absolutely no complaints on but the the price. I can't afford to pay $60 for 25lbs of food right now. 

And the 3 active dogs are eating Hi Pro Plus switched from Dr. Tims which they hated and ate by it self not even a week. They were on Native prior to that which they did fine on and Acana Prairie with the old ingredients before Champion changed them and did very well on that but I only bought it b/c I had coupons and once we went thru the 2 bags, I had to find something else and since the puppy was coming home, I went with Native b/c it worked on my last Greyhound puppy. 

As for the Victor, they dove into the kibble. I ended up opening the bags on the way home b/c the wouldn't leave them alone in the car. They are loving the food. Poop is firm, weight is good so far, no gas or any issues from day one in any of the dogs. I hope it continues b/c it is a much more affordable kibble for me right now with my roommate gone. I would like to go with their grain free kibbles as the dogs did love the samples of it, but for now, we'll stick with the grain inclusive to see how they do. My only problem so far is keeping the cat out of the dog food. She loves the kibble too, especially the Ocean Blend and keeps getting into the dog bowls while they are trying to eat.


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## riddick4811

InkedMarie said:


> Why would you NOT recommend a food, that has good ingredients, just because your dogs didn't do well on it? That doesn't make any sense to me.


What difference does the ingredients make if the food didn't work for my dogs???? Wellness has decent ingredients, but I would rather feed Ol Roy. I hate that food and would never recommend it. It is my right to recommend what I like. And I have fed a lot of dogs over the years. Always had multiple dogs plus lots of fosters. If a food doesn't work for multiple dogs, I'm not recommending. And you want to know which food consistently worked the best over the past 15 yrs for my dogs/fosters? Pro Plan Performance. If they hadn't up'd the price so much I would continue feeding it. Never had a dog do badly that food. And still when I get a badly emaciated foster, I would feed it. It does very well for putting weight on, improving coat quality w/o upsetting their stomachs. But to you and many others, it has crap ingredients. But the results speak for themselves to me. 

My 15 yr old dog ate Pro Plan Performance the first 5 yrs of his life. Then raw for about 5 yrs and various kibbles since. Had blood work last week and other than a slightly (a few points over) elavated BUN, everything else was perfect.


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