# Soft stool...need advice.



## Dobelover (Mar 14, 2013)

We've been feeding raw for about 6 weeks now. He has been doing great until the last few days. His meals are, ground chicken + one chicken back + 2 veggie cubes in am (chicken back for fat since we removed the skin off the chicken...was added later when we knew he was doing great on the chicken). Beef + 5% organ + 5% tripe and 10% bone in afternoon and usually chicken + 2 veggie cubes in evening. Approx a week now of evening feeding of pork and beef 50/50 in the eveing. When he had loose stools we went back to chicken again at night. We just made new veggie cubes. Pretty much the same recipe, only difference is less spinach, one extra apple, no sweet potatoe, 3 eggs not 2, and we put all of the fish and coconut oil in this time...last time we did half dose then added the extra to his meals when we knew he was doing ok. Our kefir was a couple of days past expiry but smelled fine. He had been doing FANTASTIC until this past week. He does eat grass outside and of course doesn't digest that but doesn't get sick from it either..and still doesn't digest the brisket bone from lunch time. We were adding one chicken back to some meals (was doing great with it). Oh and once a week gets a 50/50 beef and tripe meal and fish. Has never had loose stools after that. Thoughts anyone? His stools used to be so nice and hard..now soft. Think it's my cubes? Not enough bone? Just not sure why he was so great no not so great...I guess the only big change is the cubes...so I'm thinking it's those (hope not...expensive oils in those!) we only ever added anything new when we knew he was doing great. Never had diarrhea or loose stool when we first started...just now...Any advice would be helpful, thanks!
Oh, he's a 9mth old doberman and we are doing three meals for weight...he never put great weight on when he was on kibble...and he gets between 2.5-3% of his ideal body weight (80lb) total a day.


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## FBarnes (Feb 17, 2013)

Why veggies at all? He doesn't need them. Plus, they have ALOT of stuff in them that could not be setting well with him. The eating grass is a sign he's got an upset stomach even if he doesn't vomit. I am well acquainted with a Doberman that has a very touchy stomach, and too rich/too much/not enough bone will send him straight to the grass.

Just a couple of thoughts from what I read - you have introduced red meats awfully quickly. You have introduced organs weeks before it's recommended, especially for a dog with a touchy stomach. You could have added something he's got an intolerance for but since you are adding stuff so quickly you can't really know what it is. Maybe he did ok on one of those - but all in combination? It seems likely he's having trouble adjusting. Personally, I like the idea of three meals a day because you aren't dumping a bunch of food into his stomach at one time.

you need to go back to the basics - dump the organs, red meat (that includes pork), and do chicken and maybe fish for awhile. Then slowly add back - feed for at least two weeks before adding something new.


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## brindle (Mar 14, 2013)

FBarnes said:


> Why veggies at all? He doesn't need them. Plus, they have ALOT of stuff in them that could not be setting well with him. The eating grass is a sign he's got an upset stomach even if he doesn't vomit. I am well acquainted with a Doberman that has a very touchy stomach, and too rich/too much/not enough bone will send him straight to the grass.
> 
> Just a couple of thoughts from what I read - you have introduced red meats awfully quickly. You have introduced organs weeks before it's recommended, especially for a dog with a touchy stomach. You could have added something he's got an intolerance for but since you are adding stuff so quickly you can't really know what it is. Maybe he did ok on one of those - but all in combination? It seems likely he's having trouble adjusting. Personally, I like the idea of three meals a day because you aren't dumping a bunch of food into his stomach at one time.
> 
> you need to go back to the basics - dump the organs, red meat (that includes pork), and do chicken and maybe fish for awhile. Then slowly add back - feed for at least two weeks before adding something new.


THIS is what I mean. Needing veggies are a matter of opinion. Your opinion may be that they don't require it but the OP feels the need to feed veggies which is HER CHOICE. 
I would agree with FBarnes that you may be mixing too many proteins at once. Just start over again with chicken. I also believe that tripe really helps with the tummy (it always has helped with my dog). Do you have access to tripe??


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## Dobelover (Mar 14, 2013)

LOL..everyone has their own opinion with regards to veggies etc. I personally believe that there is a benefit to some (not a lot). With all of my reading on raw, many recommend some. You just have to make sure it's ones they can utilize/breakdown.
His loose stools started with our new mixture of the veggie cubes. He was TOTALLY fine before on the old batch. His stools were GREAT. Even after adding extra protein sources he never had a problem actually he was the opposite, his stools only got better and better. We are going to stop the cubes and see if it's them. 
We do have access to tripe so we will feed more of that as well, good thought. And we will also cut out the beef/pork to give his belly a break and feed chicken instead at night.
I appreciate everyone's advice. I don't get offended by other peoples opinions, we all do what we think is best  I happen to think veggies are important and if others don't that's their opinion.
If cutting the veggies and beef/pork doesn't work we will go back to chicken and start from the beginning again.
Our last dobe ate grass like he was a cow and never had issues with stools. I guess this guy is more sensitive than our last. Will be interesting to see if he stops eating it when his stools are back to normal.


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## FBarnes (Feb 17, 2013)

brindle said:


> THIS is what I mean. Needing veggies are a matter of opinion. Your opinion may be that they don't require it but the OP feels the need to feed veggies which is HER CHOICE.
> I would agree with FBarnes that you may be mixing too many proteins at once. Just start over again with chicken. I also believe that tripe really helps with the tummy (it always has helped with my dog). Do you have access to tripe??


Well it's a scientific fact that dogs have no daily carb requirement. If you have studies that show otherwise, I'd be glad to look at them. Veggies contain carbs; ergo, dogs do not need veggies.

But, if course if she wants to feed them she will feed them. I'm not holding a hammer over anyone's head.


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## FBarnes (Feb 17, 2013)

Dobelover said:


> Our last dobe ate grass like he was a cow and never had issues with stools. I guess this guy is more sensitive than our last. Will be interesting to see if he stops eating it when his stools are back to normal.


It's hard to tell sometimes. I know often without puking, there is diarrhea after eating grass. Maybe it's evidence that dogs like carbs


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## Dobelover (Mar 14, 2013)

I like to supplement to make sure he's getting all his vitamins and minerals. Spinach is a great source of Vit A and C, kefir is a great probiotic, fish oils for omegas and joints, coconut oil for coat. Carrots for Vit A for eyes, Broccoli for Vit C etc..the list goes on. I just personally feel its very importnant to add the them. We calculate everything out and he only gets what we feel is needed on top of his raw meat.


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## Dobelover (Mar 14, 2013)

FBarnes said:


> It's hard to tell sometimes. I know often without puking, there is diarrhea after eating grass. Maybe it's evidence that dogs like carbs


 Who knows...I think some dogs are fine with it, others not. My old lab used to eat grass too...she just seemed to like it and never had any issues. I guess it's like people. Some can tolerate gluten, others can't  every dog is different...some have stomachs like rocks others, not so much.


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## FBarnes (Feb 17, 2013)

Dobelover said:


> I like to supplement to make sure he's getting all his vitamins and minerals. Spinach is a great source of Vit A and C, kefir is a great probiotic, fish oils for omegas and joints, coconut oil for coat. Carrots for Vit A for eyes, Broccoli for Vit C etc..the list goes on. I just personally feel its very importnant to add the them. We calculate everything out and he only gets what we feel is needed on top of his raw meat.


Before we went raw, I had so many cabinets full of stuff to supplement I just hate the thought of even having to do a minimal amount any more. Which is probably why I took to raw so quickly. Simple. I personally feel that making veggie mixes is making more work for yourself, but if you think it helps then it doesn't hurt - I know alot of people who do it. However, it could be that right now there's something in there that's causing an issue and with a mix there's no way to tell. If you go slower you should be able to figure out what's causing the problem, or bypass the problem altogether if you go slow enough.


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## Roo (Oct 17, 2010)

You are feeding a lot of variety for a dog who's only 6 weeks in to the switch, I know he seemed fine, but sometimes it's just that one added food or supplement that can be too much for the digestive system. I know it's easy to get carried away with concerns of nutritional deficiencies, and the excitement of being able to add so much variety and different foods in the first few months of transitioning. However the downside is when the dog has a negative reaction, it can make it harder to figure out what the culprit is when so many things are part of the diet so soon. Just a suggestion, but I would consider going back to the basics of the diet (simplify), and start slowly adding things in.

On a side note it is spring, and the new shoots of grass are sweet and yummy to some dogs, mine are cows in the spring time for a few weeks, they never vomit from it, but it does come out whole of course in their stool. Sometimes eating grass is a sign of an upset stomach and the need to induce vomiting, but there are other reasons too for the behavior.


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## Liz (Sep 27, 2010)

DobeLover

The extra egg and the apple could both be your culprits. Egg is very rich and some dogs take a little longer to get used to them. Mine can handle one egg with their meal but two eggs would give diarrhea, the sugar in the apple could also loosen stool. I personally like getting many proteins fed on a regular basis then add in organ and any supplements. It helps to know if there is a meat they are sensitive too or merely a supplement I have to watch out for. 

Liz


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

well, liz beat me to it. 

i was going to point out the extra egg...and the changing you're doing.

change one thing at a time....so you know what your culprit is.

i have a website i'll show you when i get to my other computer...

i have fed veggies, wanting my dogs to get everything....until i looked at this website and others like it.

but it's whatever allows you to sleep at night....i suppose....

in the meantime, maybe lose the extra egg and anything that is higher in sugar than a dog needs such as apples, carrots, pears, things like that.


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## Dobelover (Mar 14, 2013)

It's only 3 eggs in the veggie mix and 2 apples...for a whole months supply. Could that small amount really cause the problem?


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## Liz (Sep 27, 2010)

Yes it really can - all this change is new and he has had many new proteins in the last month and a half. I always opt for going slow. If it takes you three months to get a lot of proteins in and then start organ and then your veg cubes that is really very little time in the life of your dog but will save you lots of headaches with tummy issues. You will get there just take it slow. You will both be happier in the long run.


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## brindle (Mar 14, 2013)

FBarnes said:


> Well it's a scientific fact that dogs have no daily carb requirement. If you have studies that show otherwise, I'd be glad to look at them. Veggies contain carbs; ergo, dogs do not need veggies.
> 
> But, if course if she wants to feed them she will feed them. I'm not holding a hammer over anyone's head.


Is that fact pertaining to wolves?


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## FBarnes (Feb 17, 2013)

brindle said:


> Is that fact pertaining to wolves?


Both. And even to play devil's advocate, I will post a link from the ASPCA - they advocate feeding a dogs carbs for the SUGAR content while admitting there is no daily carb requirement. What they fail to mention is that dogs very efficiently convert fat to glucose for energy.

ASPCA | Nutrients Your Dog Needs


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## Candyd (Apr 11, 2013)

Brindle, for your information, even human beings don't need carbohydrates.


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## FBarnes (Feb 17, 2013)

Candyd said:


> Brindle, for your information, even human beings don't need carbohydrates.


The difference in humans and dogs is that humans can store sugars as energy whereas dogs can't. They use it right up. Their critical need is fat for energy. They just don't have the same guts as we do and we keep trying to act like they do. They are different. And yes, I think humans can probably live fine with no carbs because I have seen the studies that show it, and carbs are why we are a nation of fat people, but we do process them alot more efficiently than dogs do.


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## brindle (Mar 14, 2013)

Candyd said:


> Brindle, for your information, even human beings don't need carbohydrates.


Let me guess. We need bones/organs/meat. 
This is when I just shake my head and continue on my day. Thank you for the laugh.


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## brindle (Mar 14, 2013)

FBarnes said:


> Both. And even to play devil's advocate, I will post a link from the ASPCA - they advocate feeding a dogs carbs for the SUGAR content while admitting there is no daily carb requirement. What they fail to mention is that dogs very efficiently convert fat to glucose for energy.
> 
> ASPCA | Nutrients Your Dog Needs


Great. There was also a study done proving that dogs have acquired the ability to glean nutrition from carbs. That they are much different in that aspect from wolves.
I'm sure that study was disregarded because it counters your theory on dogs being obligate carnivores... 
They are not even scientifically classified as obligate carnivores.


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## FBarnes (Feb 17, 2013)

brindle said:


> Great. There was also a study done proving that dogs have acquired the ability to glean nutrition from carbs. That they are much different in that aspect from wolves.
> I'm sure that study was disregarded because it counters your theory on dogs being obligate carnivores...
> They are not even scientifically classified as obligate carnivores.


Of course they can. They are scavengers. They don't need it to survive, though. People don't seem to get it - you CAN feed a dog carbs, but you don't NEED to feed a dog carbs.

And before we tainted their diet, Eskimos lived for centuries on seal and blubber. No plant matter. They also didn't have heart attacks or diabetes. Go figure.


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## Roo (Oct 17, 2010)

brindle said:


> Great. There was also a study done proving that dogs have acquired the ability to glean nutrition from carbs. That they are much different in that aspect from wolves.
> I'm sure that study was disregarded because it counters your theory on dogs being obligate carnivores...
> They are not even scientifically classified as obligate carnivores.


The study has been discussed several times before, that study really didn't prove anything that wasn't already known from studies before, that dogs can digest carbs, that is different from the need of it in their diet. Both scientific nutrient requirement references (the NRC and AAFCO) do not have a listed known amount for carbs as needed nutrient wise in their diets.


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## brindle (Mar 14, 2013)

Roo said:


> The study has been discussed several times before, that study really didn't prove anything that wasn't already known from studies before, that dogs can digest carbs, that is different from the need of it in their diet. Both scientific nutrient requirement references (the NRC and AAFCO) do not have a listed known amount for carbs as needed nutrient wise in their diets.


If they can digest it that would indicate that it is has benefits. I'm sure a test can say that I do not require hemp hearts but I know that I digest them and they are very beneficial to me.
Just because something is not NECESSARY doesn't mean it is not beneficial. 
People on here act like carbs+dogs=death. It is simply not true!


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## brindle (Mar 14, 2013)

FBarnes said:


> Of course they can. They are scavengers. They don't need it to survive, though. People don't seem to get it - you CAN feed a dog carbs, but you don't NEED to feed a dog carbs.
> 
> And before we tainted their diet, Eskimos lived for centuries on seal and blubber. No plant matter. They also didn't have heart attacks or diabetes. Go figure.


Yet you can find a study showing how harmful meat is for people. You see? You can find opposing opinions (and studies) on basically EVERYTHING. 
You also don't need to NOT feed them carbs.
I'll just say-- the OP chooses to feed veggies, just like you all, I'm sure she would prefer respect of her feeding choices. I'll leave it at that because I am just reiterating at this point, I sound like a bloody broken record. 
Reciprocate the respect that you ask for.


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## FBarnes (Feb 17, 2013)

No one said that. Why do you insist on making stuff up? Dogs don't need carbs. It's a fact. It may be a fact you don't like, but it's a fact nevertheless. That's what it is, and that's ALL it is. 

But the pet food companies would have us believe they add carbs because they are necessary. That's not true. They add them because they can't make kibble without it. The little pellets wouldn't form, and it would cost $1000 a bag. They add them NOT because carbs are so wonderful.


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## FBarnes (Feb 17, 2013)

brindle said:


> Yet you can find a study showing how harmful meat is for people. You see? You can find opposing opinions (and studies) on basically EVERYTHING.
> You also don't need to NOT feed them carbs.
> I'll just say-- the OP chooses to feed veggies, just like you all, I'm sure she would prefer respect of her feeding choices. I'll leave it at that because I am just reiterating at this point, I sound like a bloody broken record.
> Reciprocate the respect that you ask for.


I respect her feeding choices and told her so. you are the one who keeps making a big deal out of it.


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## brindle (Mar 14, 2013)

FBarnes said:


> No one said that. Why do you insist on making stuff up? Dogs don't need carbs. It's a fact. It may be a fact you don't like, but it's a fact nevertheless. That's what it is, and that's ALL it is.
> 
> But the pet food companies would have us believe they add carbs because they are necessary. That's not true. They add them because they can't make kibble without it. The little pellets wouldn't form, and it would cost $1000 a bag. They add them NOT because carbs are so wonderful.


I didn't say they needed carbs. They also do not need raw meat... many dogs live long/fulfilled/healthy lives without it... so..?


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## Roo (Oct 17, 2010)

brindle said:


> If they can digest it that would indicate that it is has benefits. I'm sure a test can say that I do not require hemp hearts but I know that I digest them and they are very beneficial to me.
> Just because something is not NECESSARY doesn't mean it is not beneficial.
> People on here act like carbs+dogs=death. It is simply not true!


Carbs were mentioned as being unneeded, you questioned wolves, and brought up the study, that's what was being discussed, at least in the posts before, not the benefits of carbohydrates.


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## Roo (Oct 17, 2010)

brindle said:


> I didn't say they needed carbs. They also do not need raw meat... many dogs live long/fulfilled/healthy lives without it... so..?


So feed what you feel is best for your dogs, and accept that others will feed differently.


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## brindle (Mar 14, 2013)

Roo said:


> So feed what you feel is best for your dogs, and accept that others will feed differently.


That's exactly it. Do that for the OP. She wants to feed veggies, respect it. Whether you *feel* it is necessary or not.


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## Roo (Oct 17, 2010)

brindle said:


> That's exactly it. Do that for the OP. She wants to feed veggies, respect it. Whether you *feel* it is necessary or not.


First off, I never disrespected the OP for her feeding choices, secondly the advice to not feed veggies came from the fact that it's unnecessary, and the OP is currently having digestive issues possibly caused by feeding a lot of different types of foods (including veggies), it was suggested that she simplify the diet (for now since the dog is having issues). Not that the OP should never feed veggies again in the future.


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## Dobelover (Mar 14, 2013)

All I know is that he was just perfect until our new cubes came along...didn't have an issue with anything...as Liz said, the extra egg and apple could easily do it. We will stop the cubes and see  hopefully that's all it is  If it's not, then we will start from the beginning. I will keep you all posted. I do appreciate all of your advice and opinions, even if they are different than mine! Who knows, maybe my opinion will change on certain things...only a fool doesn't change their mind. I'm in the vet world..and hey, I changed my opinion on raw!


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## brindle (Mar 14, 2013)

Roo said:


> First off, I never disrespected the OP for her feeding choices, secondly the advice to not feed veggies came from the fact that it's unnecessary, and the OP is currently having digestive issues possibly caused by feeding a lot of different types of foods (including veggies), it was suggested that she simplify the diet (for now since the dog is having issues). Not that the OP should never feed veggies again in the future.


No you didn't. Someone else did. 
I agree with everything you just said actually


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## Roo (Oct 17, 2010)

brindle said:


> No you didn't. Someone else did.


And I would have appreciated it if you had not implied that I had with your generalizing statement.


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## Tobi (Mar 18, 2011)

Hrm...

op2:


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## lauren43 (Feb 6, 2011)

Ok before this thread gets all out of control lets try to stay on track. I'd hate to have to close this thread because of another carnivore vs omnivore vs terdivore vs fruitivore...some people believe dogs are omnivores some think they are carnivores (I personally believe they are some where in between, IMO it's a sliding scale) but that's neither here nor there..the OP is the only person who has to agree with what they choose to feed, we are all allowed are opinions but we cannot condemn ppl for theirs (not saying anyone was actually condemning the OP, I just want to be clear)...

To the OP I agree with Liz, hold off on the veggie mix for now, you can add them back later, same for any organs or any extras...give him more time to adjust to the bulk of the diet.

I have to ask. How long has he been eating pork? I know that can sometimes cause upsets for some dogs..I could be wrong but I *think* magicre had to add pork veeerrryyy slowly, like bite sized pieces a couple days a week, then depending on the results a little bigger and so on in very small increments. My dog for example does ok with pork as far as poop goes but he gets really bad gas (he always has gas but its repulsive when he eats pork) and a growly tummy and he eats more grass than usual...


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## brindle (Mar 14, 2013)

Roo said:


> And I would have appreciated it if you had not implied that I had with your generalizing statement.


Sorry.......


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## Dobelover (Mar 14, 2013)

lauren43 said:


> Ok before this thread gets all out of control lets try to stay on track. I'd hate to have to close this thread because of another carnivore vs omnivore vs terdivore vs fruitivore...some people believe dogs are omnivores some think they are carnivores (I personally believe they are some where in between, IMO it's a sliding scale) but that's neither here nor there..the OP is the only person who has to agree with what they choose to feed, we are all allowed are opinions but we cannot condemn ppl for theirs (not saying anyone was actually condemning the OP, I just want to be clear)...
> 
> To the OP I agree with Liz, hold off on the veggie mix for now, you can add them back later, same for any organs or any extras...give him more time to adjust to the bulk of the diet.
> 
> I have to ask. How long has he been eating pork? I know that can sometimes cause upsets for some dogs..I could be wrong but I *think* magicre had to add pork veeerrryyy slowly, like bite sized pieces a couple days a week, then depending on the results a little bigger and so on in very small increments. My dog for example does ok with pork as far as poop goes but he gets really bad gas (he always has gas but its repulsive when he eats pork) and a growly tummy and he eats more grass than usual...


First, well said.
We stopped the cubes so we'll see. He had been eating the pork for a week...no problems. Then we started the new cubes...but he is a bit gassy..not sure if it's when we gave the pork or the new cubes or if it's from eating the grass. We will probably stop the pork as well until we see some good hard solid stools. Then we will give it awhile then slowly add it back. 
Our beef and organ mix that we give in the afternoon has very little organ in it (5%),we give some everyday with the beef and also add in tripe, so I don't think it's that. He's had that and chicken for a bit and NEVER had issues with his bowels, they were always great.


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

Dobelover said:


> All I know is that he was just perfect until our new cubes came along...didn't have an issue with anything...as Liz said, the extra egg and apple could easily do it. We will stop the cubes and see  hopefully that's all it is  If it's not, then we will start from the beginning. I will keep you all posted. I do appreciate all of your advice and opinions, even if they are different than mine! Who knows, maybe my opinion will change on certain things...only a fool doesn't change their mind. I'm in the vet world..and hey, I changed my opinion on raw!


here's something that may help....

http://www.kaossiberians.com/old kaos pages/health/Nutrients.pdf

it will show you the nutrients you give your dog with what you're feeding.

i agree. stop the cubes. stop the eggs. go back to what worked before and then add slowly one thing at a time, so you know if there is a culprit or too many different things added at once.


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## InkedMarie (Sep 9, 2011)

Tobi said:


> Hrm...
> 
> op2:


Jut want to say, love your avatar pic!


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## kathylcsw (Jul 31, 2011)

FWIW pork causes mucous poop in both my dogs. I have to be very careful when I feed it so that they don't get super soft poop. They have been on raw for over a year which is bascically all their lives. If it continues once you stop the veggie cube I would look at the pork.


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## FBarnes (Feb 17, 2013)

kathylcsw said:


> FWIW pork causes mucous poop in both my dogs. I have to be very careful when I feed it so that they don't get super soft poop. They have been on raw for over a year which is bascically all their lives. If it continues once you stop the veggie cube I would look at the pork.


Sometimes it's the cut, too. It does seem that dogs with intolerance problems often have them to pork.


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