# Meat Scrap and Pancreatitis??



## meganr66 (Mar 2, 2012)

I am a part of a Co-op for my area on Facebook. Someone got some turkey scrap, it still has meat but is also fat and skin and bones as well. Anyways, someone posted up some pictures of this scrap and offered to go pick up some cases and get it to people. One of the women in the group came up talking about how people can't feed this and how it was too much fat and we were going to give our dogs Pancreatitis if we feed it. The woman that offered the food not the one that was "warning" us said she talked to another raw feeder and they thought the turkey scrap was good to feed. I also have gotten beef scrap that this same woman told me i needed to be careful and that i was going to give my dogs pancreas issues. My question is- will i give my dogs pancreas issues? I always monitor the amount of fat that they get but she told me i should not be feeding the beef as a meal because there is too much fat. I am just a worry wart and she is scaring the poo out of me of course, i just am interested in knowing the amounts that are considered dangerous?? I also feed things like chicken gizzards and beef heart, if i am feeding that i am assuming the scrap would be easy to feed alongside since its so much fat? Being new is a pain


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## Celt (Dec 27, 2010)

I'm no expert but I do know that a few members had "issues" (mostly coat stuff) because of a lack of fat in the diet. Imo, most dogs get pancreatitis from eating "rich" (and usually fatty) foods that they are not accustom to eating. Otherwise, a kibble fed dog getting a turkey "dinner" at Thanksgiving. I'm sure eating a bunch of buttery, seasoned skin with some meat and giblets would cause problems for any one if you're not use to eating heavy. One reason, it's, sometimes, suggested to remove the skin and fat from the first few meals is to help keep digestive upsets (i.e. diarhea) from occurring. I think that if a dog is fed a varied diet that includes fat and rich meats then they will be fine eating this way without any serious issues. As far as "dangerous" amounts of fat, I would say that for a dog unacustomed to eating any kind of fat/rich meats then any "large" (based on size/age/health of dog) amount could cause some issue (most of the time, issues along the line of cannon butt) but for a dog use to eating these foods, you'd probably have to feed an excessive (double/triple the amount of a full meal) before causing a serious issue. I hope I made sense here.


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## creek817 (Feb 18, 2012)

I agree with Celt - if it is really fatty, just go ahead and feed it either in small amounts, or with lean meats (venison, goat, etc). If it's a good price, I would jump on it! My local butcher sold me 2kg (4.5 pounds) of fat (just fat, cut off beef, pork, whatever) for $1. Its my best score yet lol, and I just add a little bit to most of dobby's meals.


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

fat doesn't cause the pancreas to be inflamed....sugar does and carbs do.

high fat keeps it inflamed because the liver and pancreas work closely together.

turkey is fine to feed. my dogs went bald because of a lack of dietary fat. 

dogs use fat for energy. whilst i would not feed gobs of fat i think out of the 80% protein, 10% of that should be fat. just sayin'


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## Dude and Bucks Mamma (May 14, 2011)

My bluetick was another dog who lost hair from lack of fat. He was eating mostly beef heart that had been trimmed for human consumption and it didn't occur to me that he was getting significantly less fat than he should have been. Now, we just supplement him with chunks of beef fat on beef heart night. He typically gets 1/4 lb of beef fat every 2-3 days depending on what he is eating. There is SOME fat on the hearts he gets but nowhere near enough for his body to be as healthy as it should.

My collie, on the other hand, eats a lot of poultry (with skin and fat) and never had the issue my pup had.


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

we also use a seed mix for our dogs' fur. it's plant oils, but it works.....

it's a mix of chia seed/raw pumpkin seed/ raw sesame seeds with hull/raw sunflower seed - put into grinder and grind just enough to break it up....
give a sprinkling daily.

we still use this on our dogs...and you can see by the pic they are glossy and furry. 

pancreatitis is one of those inflammatory processes...the 'itis' means inflamed. if you're feeding carbs of any kind, you'll want to stop.


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## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

meganr66 said:


> I am a part of a Co-op for my area on Facebook. Someone got some turkey scrap, it still has meat but is also fat and skin and bones as well. Anyways, someone posted up some pictures of this scrap and offered to go pick up some cases and get it to people. One of the women in the group came up talking about how people can't feed this and how it was too much fat and we were going to give our dogs Pancreatitis if we feed it. The woman that offered the food not the one that was "warning" us said she talked to another raw feeder and they thought the turkey scrap was good to feed. I also have gotten beef scrap that this same woman told me i needed to be careful and that i was going to give my dogs pancreas issues. My question is- will i give my dogs pancreas issues? I always monitor the amount of fat that they get but she told me i should not be feeding the beef as a meal because there is too much fat. I am just a worry wart and she is scaring the poo out of me of course, i just am interested in knowing the amounts that are considered dangerous?? I also feed things like chicken gizzards and beef heart, if i am feeding that i am assuming the scrap would be easy to feed alongside since its so much fat? Being new is a pain


My dogs get oceans of fat. Well, maybe not quite oceans of fat but they get alot. And one dog gets almost 100% red meat, plus alot of oily fish, etc. not one sign of pancreatitis. 

Don't let people scare you off - dogs need fat. People need fat, too, actually, but the good fat and not the bad fat. 

I don't know where people come up with this crazy stuff! It scares people off of the food they should be feeding.


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## BearMurphy (Feb 29, 2012)

As far as I know, Pancreatitis is mainly a concern for kibble fed dogs because they are not used to eating fat like we feed our dogs. it could also be a problem for a dog with underlying medical condition. I don't have much medical background or experience with this problem though. I'd be interested to hear if a raw fed dog had an episode and what led to it.


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

BearMurphy said:


> As far as I know, Pancreatitis is mainly a concern for kibble fed dogs because they are not used to eating fat like we feed our dogs. it could also be a problem for a dog with underlying medical condition. I don't have much medical background or experience with this problem though. I'd be interested to hear if a raw fed dog had an episode and what led to it.


Myths About Raw: An Honest, Candid Conclusion

i think this says it better than i can.


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## DaneMama (Jun 27, 2008)

You have to build up a dog's tolerance to high quantities of fat over time. Our girls can eat high fat meals and have perfect stools the next day, but this took time. Add in fat gradually, slowly...making sure your pups are handling it well. Treat fat sorta like organ meats...very rich and in too high of quantities at first can causes real issues. 

The further into raw feeding I get (years) the more I believe the ratio of a true well rounded PMR diet goes as follows: mostly meat : some bone : some organ : some fat

Fat is just as important as organs, as bones, as meat....a necessity. People start to see issues with skin and coat if there's not enough good, quality fat in the diet. It may take a few months to get your dog's tolerance up to having high fat meals, but have patience. Don't rush it.


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## xchairity_casex (Oct 8, 2011)

last month when i thought Cesar was constipated i gave him quite a few solid hunks of jsut beef fat to get his system going again had no issues with it.


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## smaughunter (Apr 27, 2012)

I feed pancreas...a great source of pancreatic enzymes.  She doesn't get carbs anymore but she was kibble fed for 6 years.


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## Nana52 (Apr 28, 2012)

What if your dog actually had a bout of pancreatitis and your vet said "must be on low fat diet" .... then what?


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## DaneMama (Jun 27, 2008)

It would depend on if its chronic or if it was acute. If a dog has chronic pancreastis you'd have to be more careful. But an acute case (single event and the dog got 100% better after) then you'd be ok to feed a normal PMR diet, I'd just recommend going WAY slower with introducing fat into the diet to prevent another episode if at all possible.


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## Nana52 (Apr 28, 2012)

Thanks DaneMama. It has been only the one "attack" thus far (about 2-1/2 months ago). His lab results came back totally normal, and he's eating and behaving perfectly normal. Vet was so adamant about low fat from now on, I've been totally paranoid about removing skin and excess fat, etc. (I should be so particular about my own diet). I'm starting to worry that maybe he's not getting enough fat, simply based on the fact that he's not regaining his weight (granted he was a tad heavy before losing a couple of pounds when he was sick), and he seems to be hungry all the time (baby boy does like to eat), and his coat just seems kinda thin and "lank" for lack of a better word. Maybe just my imagination; I do tend to obsess. 

At any rate, he's due for a recheck of his lab tests in about 30 days, so if all remains within normal limits, I think I'm going to try increasing his fat intake, oh, so, slowly :-/ And pray I do no harm.


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## meganr66 (Mar 2, 2012)

Thanks for all the great input everybody! I'm definitely feeling better about it but we will definitely take it slow, that's how i do it everytime i introduce a protein!


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## DaneMama (Jun 27, 2008)

Nana52 said:


> Thanks DaneMama. It has been only the one "attack" thus far (about 2-1/2 months ago). His lab results came back totally normal, and he's eating and behaving perfectly normal. Vet was so adamant about low fat from now on, I've been totally paranoid about removing skin and excess fat, etc. (I should be so particular about my own diet). I'm starting to worry that maybe he's not getting enough fat, simply based on the fact that he's not regaining his weight (granted he was a tad heavy before losing a couple of pounds when he was sick), and he seems to be hungry all the time (baby boy does like to eat), and his coat just seems kinda thin and "lank" for lack of a better word. Maybe just my imagination; I do tend to obsess.
> 
> At any rate, he's due for a recheck of his lab tests in about 30 days, so if all remains within normal limits, I think I'm going to try increasing his fat intake, oh, so, slowly :-/ And pray I do no harm.


Do it painstakingly slow. I mean insanely slow. Like over the course of a year. Its FAR better to be safe than sorry in this situation because you don't want him to end up with chronic pancreatitis. 

Its not like he will have serious nutritional deficiencies from lower fat diet, its just his skin and coat may not be at their full potential, body condition will be slightly lowered and energy might be lower as well.


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## Nana52 (Apr 28, 2012)

Good advice, DM. I'm terrified that one episode will turn into multiples if I mess up (I get the impression it's possible to have a relapse regardless, but I surely want to do all I can to lessen the odds). If it takes that long to do it right, I can handle that. His energy seems to be about what it was before, and the hair/coat thing is not horrible, just seems not so thick and puffy. But then, he is 9+ .... so age could maybe be a factor in that part? Thanks again. I feel a tad less apprehensive about the low fat/to low fat conundrum.


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## bett (Mar 15, 2012)

i do believe that if you have a dog who had a bout of pancreatitis the best thing to do, is less fat.


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## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

This is an interesting quote from the Myths of Raw Feeding site:



> Pancreatitis.
> 
> Pancreatitis, kidney disease, and other diseases claimed to be linked to raw feeding are in the same boat as bacterial septicemia. What generally happens is that a) there are underlying factors, b) there is an underlying disease, and c) the raw diet brings these to light. With pancreatitis, it is typically kibble-fed dogs that suffer from it when they receive a fatty meat they do not usually get. *It is also incredibly important to note that fat does not cause pancreatitis; excess fat is simply a trigger for pancreatitis and may start the cascade of effects in the pancreas. If ingesting a fatty meal triggers a bout of pancreatitis, then that is indicative of some other underlying problem with the pancreas (again, ask "Why this dog? Why now?" Not every dog that eats raw meat or high quantities of fat "gets" pancreatitis, so something about that particular dog indicates "susceptibility"); the pancreatitis itself is a symptom that the pancreas (and possibly other organs) are not well, because a healthy dog with a healthy pancreas will not suffer from pancreatitis. Surprisingly, many dogs that previously suffered from these diseases while eating kibble have dramatically improved since switching to a raw diet.* Just wander around the Yahoo! Rawfeeding group and you will hear some amazing testimonials. Just the fact that kibble-fed dogs can also suffer horrific and deadly bouts of pancreatitis should be sufficient to show that this is not a 'raw feeding' problem, particularly when dogs with pancreas problems can be greatly helped from a raw diet (since it is easier to digest and actually places less demand on the pancreas). Can pancreatitis or kidney disease happen in a raw-fed dog? Yes, they could. All things are possible, particularly when one has no control over the kind of start the dog received in life (breeding, what the parents were fed, what the pup was fed, what vaccinations and wormers it received, etc.).


Myths About Raw: An Honest, Candid Conclusion


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