# Red Dye on turkey chunks



## bridget246 (Oct 26, 2011)

I've been changing supplier and my suppliers have been changing who supplies them and it is getting harder to find turkey chunks without the red dye. Is it harmful to feed this?


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## bett (Mar 15, 2012)

i wouldn't. 

my husband works in a prime shop, and i know all the tricks in the non prime shops. dye, light with a pink tint.


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## SpinRetrievers (Jun 1, 2013)

bridget246 said:


> I've been changing supplier and my suppliers have been changing who supplies them and it is getting harder to find turkey chunks without the red dye. Is it harmful to feed this?


I think what you are seeing is the inspector stamp that is required to indicate the turkey meat is not for human consumption, just animal consumption. They are not using the dye to make the meat look better, just to indentify it so it doesn't go back into the human food chain.


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## bridget246 (Oct 26, 2011)

SpinRetrievers said:


> I think what you are seeing is the inspector stamp that is required to indicate the turkey meat is not for human consumption, just animal consumption. They are not using the dye to make the meat look better, just to indentify it so it doesn't go back into the human food chain.


So what is the inspector stamp made of?


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## shellbell (Sep 24, 2011)

Are you talking about the turkey chunks from Raw Paws? It says on their website it is red bakery food dye, human grade. I would prefer it not be there at all, but I do trust the company to where if they say that is what it is, they are not being deceptive about it....


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## naturalfeddogs (Jan 6, 2011)

shellbell said:


> Are you talking about the turkey chunks from Raw Paws? It says on their website it is red bakery food dye, human grade. I would prefer it not be there at all, but I do trust the company to where if they say that is what it is, they are not being deceptive about it....


Why do they put the dye there to begin with? What's the point of it, I guess is what I am asking.


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## shellbell (Sep 24, 2011)

naturalfeddogs said:


> Why do they put the dye there to begin with? What's the point of it, I guess is what I am asking.


I imagine they need to somehow designate it as pet food when they are packaging it up for RPI. Really, it is something that I could easily cook up and eat myself, they are just big meaty hunks of turkey. I guess most of the other things they sell (organs, tripe, duck necks, etc) don't have as much a risk of being mistaken for people food. That is all I can think of.


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## naturalfeddogs (Jan 6, 2011)

shellbell said:


> I imagine they need to somehow designate it as pet food when they are packaging it up for RPI. Really, it is something that I could easily cook up and eat myself, they are just big meaty hunks of turkey. I guess most of the other things they sell (organs, tripe, duck necks, etc) don't have as much a risk of being mistaken for people food. That is all I can think of.



Makes sense.


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## bridget246 (Oct 26, 2011)

shellbell said:


> Are you talking about the turkey chunks from Raw Paws? It says on their website it is red bakery food dye, human grade. I would prefer it not be there at all, but I do trust the company to where if they say that is what it is, they are not being deceptive about it....


I'm not talking specifically about the ones from Raw Paws but they do a similar practice with their turkey chunks. Recently there ethics came under fire by someone within the raw community and they updated their terms and conditions following that incident. I see no problems with it since they are upfront about it. I don't shop at RPI anymore because they stop supplying what I use to buy from them and this happened shortly after I joined and paid the membership fee. If they get more stock in at a later date with prices cheaper than what I'm currently paying I will use them again.

Getting back on topic. I do understand why this dye is there. What I'm not sure of is the effects of this dye on the bodies of our dogs. Is it anything like red dye(40) that has been banned in Europe? Part of the reason why I moved to raw was to avoid these additives in the food. I'm not against any supplier as a result of this as the ones I used have been upfront about it with no shady dealings as far as I can see. That doesn't mean I'm not worried about the health effects of it. I'd hate to avoid turkey because of the cost per a pound makes it a great filler but if I can't get good sources of it I might have to.


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## SpinRetrievers (Jun 1, 2013)

naturalfeddogs said:


> Why do they put the dye there to begin with? What's the point of it, I guess is what I am asking.


It is the law. If the meat does not pass inspection for human consumption it cannot leave the facility unless it is dyed. It has to be marked with a color indicating it cannot be used for human consumption.

So any food that is dyed, signals the animal was diseased or otherwise not fit for humans to eat.


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## bett (Mar 15, 2012)

SpinRetrievers said:


> It is the law. If the meat does not pass inspection for human consumption it cannot leave the facility unless it is dyed. It has to be marked with a color indicating it cannot be used for human consumption.
> 
> So any food that is dyed, signals the animal was diseased or otherwise not fit for humans to eat.


well, i'm trying to find out if this is in fact how it's done.
and now for a question for the raw feeders, if the meat, or fowl, is deemed not for human consumption, why is ok for dogs? what makes it unfit for human consumption?


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## SpinRetrievers (Jun 1, 2013)

bett said:


> well, i'm trying to find out if this is in fact how it's done.
> and now for a question for the raw feeders, if the meat, or fowl, is deemed not for human consumption, why is ok for dogs? what makes it unfit for human consumption?


This is the law when it comes from a USDA facility, so at least the public knows. However, what is more troubling is that if the facility does not process for human consumption and is therefore not USDA inspected, there is no requirement to dye it.

Poultry will get dyed red and red meat will be dyed green or covered with liquid charcoal.

If you use kibble, they will use a compensating color to bring it back to a natural color. Now, if your kibble comes from an EU Cert. facility, they cannot use meat products from animals not fit for human consumption, so they will not dye it at all. And a Vet must sign the shipment taking personal responsibility for this. In EU Cert. plants you cannot even bring in meat products that were from animals not fit for human consumption.

There is no question that foods made under European rules or in Europe are more controlled. The flexibility to sell diseased meat for dogs and cats is amazing, any number of infections that would turn your stomach are ok for pet food.


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## bett (Mar 15, 2012)

i do know about the USDA laws regarding grading of meats and poultry. what i dont see, is a stamp on poultry, "not for human consumption". i"ve read and read, and cant find it.
i am aware of the crap and garbage that goes into kibble. but the poster was feeding turkey chunks, i am assuming raw, or perhaps cooked, but i never heard of the stamp "not for human consumption".
that' s my question-where is that written?

i've asked nick to ask his suppliers if they know anything about that, just for my own information.
actually the colors represent different degrees of the quality of meats.

http://www.fsis.usda.gov/factsheets/inspection_&_grading/index.asp

the above is just one of the readings i went thru this morning.
http://www.bornfreeusa.org/facts.php?more=1&p=359
and the one above can encourage raw or home cooking for sure.


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## SpinRetrievers (Jun 1, 2013)

bett said:


> i do know about the USDA laws regarding grading of meats and poultry. what i dont see, is a stamp on poultry, "not for human consumption". i"ve read and read, and cant find it.
> i am aware of the crap and garbage that goes into kibble. but the poster was feeding turkey chunks, i am assuming raw, or perhaps cooked, but i never heard of the stamp "not for human consumption".
> that' s my question-where is that written?
> 
> ...


Bett, it is not a stamp like "prime" or"choice"....I used the word stamp in a broad sense. The condemned meat goes into in a yellow barrel and then dye is thrown in. They do call it "stamping" but its not like what a consumer knows as a grading stamp.

Trust me, the nasty stuff gets pulled out by an inspector and gets dyed when in a USDA plants.


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## bett (Mar 15, 2012)

SpinRetrievers said:


> Bett, it is not a stamp like "prime" or"choice"....I used the word stamp in a broad sense. The condemned meat goes into in a yellow barrel and then dye is thrown in. They do call it "stamping" but its not like what a consumer knows as a grading stamp.
> 
> Trust me, the nasty stuff gets pulled out by an inspector and gets dyed when in a USDA plants.


but then, what was the stamp the original poster was discussing. i believe you said, it was "not for human consumption. " and i cant find that anywhere.
i'm not doubting that nasty stuff exists. i wanted to know what you meant by the stamp , "not for human consumption" and how if that is true, does she have turkey chunks . 

and after all that is said, how is it that you would feed kibble at all? (not YOU the collective "you")


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## whiteleo (Sep 7, 2008)

I certainly would not feed meat that is not for "human consumption" especially like the everyday proteins, too many things could be the reason IMO. Our co-op does not do chunked or whole that is not fit for human consumption.


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## SpinRetrievers (Jun 1, 2013)

bett said:


> but then, what was the stamp the original poster was discussing. i believe you said, it was "not for human consumption. " and i cant find that anywhere.
> i'm not doubting that nasty stuff exists. i wanted to know what you meant by the stamp , "not for human consumption" and how if that is true, does she have turkey chunks .
> 
> and after all that is said, how is it that you would feed kibble at all? (not YOU the collective "you")


Because if the kibble comes from an EU Cert plant the origin of the meat protein must be from animals approved for human consumption. These plants get audited.


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## bett (Mar 15, 2012)

nick asked two distributors she didn't know what he was talking about.


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## FBarnes (Feb 17, 2013)

4D meats - diseased, dying, disabled, dead. These are the animals that are kicked out of the processing plants for human foods. They are "Denatured" - which is the dye you are seeing. There are various ways to denature meat to designate it not fit to eat. In fact, that's what "denature" means. Many places use charcoal ash.

The USDA requires this in plants making HUMAN food. So they take the dregs, the sick, broken, dying animals and sell them as dog food, denatured.

A non-USDA plant - those that specifically raise and slaughter animals for pet food - aren't constrained by the USDA rules. They can stamp their meat "not for human consumption" without denaturing. It's often much better quality meat than the 4D meat coming from human grade plants.


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## Neeko (Aug 11, 2010)

bridget246 said:


> I'm not talking specifically about the ones from Raw Paws but they do a similar practice with their turkey chunks. Recently there ethics came under fire by someone within the raw community and they updated their terms and conditions following that incident. I see no problems with it since they are upfront about it. I don't shop at RPI anymore because they stop supplying what I use to buy from them and this happened shortly after I joined and paid the membership fee. If they get more stock in at a later date with prices cheaper than what I'm currently paying I will use them again.
> 
> Getting back on topic. I do understand why this dye is there. What I'm not sure of is the effects of this dye on the bodies of our dogs. Is it anything like red dye(40) that has been banned in Europe? Part of the reason why I moved to raw was to avoid these additives in the food. I'm not against any supplier as a result of this as the ones I used have been upfront about it with no shady dealings as far as I can see. That doesn't mean I'm not worried about the health effects of it. I'd hate to avoid turkey because of the cost per a pound makes it a great filler but if I can't get good sources of it I might have to.


I use Raw Paws and genuinely want to know what they did to bring their ethics under fire. RPI and MPC are both based out of Indianapolis, and I know there is no love lost between the two. MPC recently came out with a big article on how they NEVER have or will use 4D meats.


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## bridget246 (Oct 26, 2011)

I start off asking about the red dye being safe which I'm still unsure on. The thought of it actually being 4D meats is something I didn't expect and to me this is worse than my concern over red dye. I'll stick with only buying the dog meat that is labeled dog meat from being scrap, left in the freezer too long or hit the floor. I have two suppliers now who sale to me for that reason and this meat comes to me without any dyes. 



Neeko said:


> I use Raw Paws and genuinely want to know what they did to bring their ethics under fire. RPI and MPC are both based out of Indianapolis, and I know there is no love lost between the two. MPC recently came out with a big article on how they NEVER have or will use 4D meats.


It isn't so much what they did as what someone from Columbus is claiming. The further they get away from Indy the less co op like they appear. Raw paws is an Indy based co op so people in Columbus don't get to see the co op side of things. I actually haven't seen the co op side of any place I tried to use. I was going to make a 2 hour travel to pick up some tripe and ribs from a co op but didn't want to make the trip until someone confirmed my order. Everyone I managed to get ahold of wasn't sure and would call me back in a hour... The day of I kept calling, still trying to confirm my order and they told me they were out of stock. I gave up on that place altogether.

The main concern this person had was related to denatured meat. I'll post some of what was said here:



> I have received countless boxes of trachea, ground lamb/goat/beef mix, tripe and a few other things labeled "Pet Food Only" and from Brewers Livestock in Indiana. My thought was that since at Raw Paws we are only allowed limited quantity of certain meats I would contact some of the places that you are picking meat up from. I go through a lot of meat each month and if given the chance I will buy 1200 lbs and stock all of my freezers. I dont think the other Raw Paws members would appreciate me doing that and leaving them nothing and I dont think Raw Paws would even allowed it.
> 
> So, I contacted Donnie at Brewers Livestock and he gave me a price sheet of what they offer and told me which items were as is and which ones were denatured with charcoal and then labeled "Pet Food Only" per the USDA guidelines. I was thrilled at being able to order an unlimited amount of food but then was put off once he told me about the denatured meats. Technically he says its safe for pet consumption, however I feed my dogs a raw diet for a reason and I dont want to compromise their health giving them a protein that has been altered.
> 
> And thats all! I did not intend to give anyone, any co-op, or any business a bad reputation or put them down in any way.





> So, I have been ordering from Raw Paws but my hesitation with that is that most of the Lamb and Goat products come from Brewers Livestock, which I contacted to get bulk pricing, and they told me some of their products (specifically most organs and tripe)contains denatured charcoal to make it unfit for human consumption


It really was a he said, she said kind of thing. The above was the views of a single person. I haven't confirmed anything as I stopped using them shortly after that. The cost was a little too high for me after shipping since they didn't have a lot of what I wanted. Instead I've been sticking with ordering from MPC every 3 months or so. I have actually met the owner of Raw Paws and to me she seems like she is willing do her best to be as honest as possible about what she is selling. Don't be afraid to ask her if you have any questions going forward.

I now know of a lot of raw feeders in the Columbus area. I'm actually considering getting everyone together in an attempt to start our own co op. We might be able to get better quality meats for a lower price if we work together.


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## FBarnes (Feb 17, 2013)

This is what's legally allowed for denaturing. Acids, dyes, I think alot of companies use powdered charcoal. Note that they also allow "proprietary substance" meaning they don't even have to tell you what they are using. There is a company called DAn's something that sells 4D cattle denatured with a "black liquid" and no ingredients are given.

9 CFR 325.13 - Denaturing procedures. | Title 9 - Animals and Animal Products | Code of Federal Regulations | LII / Legal Information Institute

_"(1) The following agents are prescribed for denaturing carcasses, parts thereof, meat or meat food products which are affected with any condition that would result in their condemnation and disposal under part 314 of this subchapter if they were at an official establishment: *Crude carbolic acid; cresylic disinfectant; a formula consisting of 1 part FD&C green No. 3 coloring, 40 parts water, 40 parts liquid detergent, and 40 parts oil of citronella, or other proprietary substance* approved by the Administrator in specific cases. 3
Footnote(s): 3 Information as to approval of any proprietary denaturing substance may be obtained from the Technical Services, Meat and Poultry Inspection, Food Safety and Inspection Service, U.S. Department of Agriculture, Washington, DC 20250.
(2) Except as provided in paragraphs (a)(3), (4), and (5) of this section, the following agents are prescribed for denaturing other carcasses, parts thereof, meat and meat food products, for which denaturing is required by this part: *FD&C green No. 3 coloring; FD&C blue No. 1 coloring; FD&C blue No. 2 coloring; finely powdered charcoal; or other proprietary substance* approved by the Administrator in specific cases. 3
(3) Tripe may be denatured by dipping it in a 6 percent solution of* tannic acid for 1 minute followed by immersion in a water bath, then immersing it for 1 minute in a solution of 0.022 percent FD&C yellow No. 5 coloring;*
(4) Meat may be denatured by dipping it in a solution of 0.0625 percent *tannic acid, followed by immersion in a water bath, then dipping it in a solution of 0.0625 percent ferric acid; and*."_


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## FBarnes (Feb 17, 2013)

I see more and more talk about these denatured meats on every single forum I frequent. Who wouldn't want the cheapest of the cheap? But that's what's in cheap kibble! not even good kibble! Why are raw feeders turning around and feeding the same horrible meat to their dogs that they used to feed in kibble form?


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## bridget246 (Oct 26, 2011)

FBarnes said:


> I see more and more talk about these denatured meats on every single forum I frequent. Who wouldn't want the cheapest of the cheap? But that's what's in cheap kibble! not even good kibble! Why are raw feeders turning around and feeding the same horrible meat to their dogs that they used to feed in kibble form?


Because they didn't know.


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## FBarnes (Feb 17, 2013)

Frankly, I don't think that's acceptable. Didn't we learn from kibble? Why do we trust that what we are sold is decent? Ignorance is no excuse to give a dog 4D meats when, as raw feeders, we know how we were lied to constantly in order to get us to buy a bag of kibble filled with wretched meat and toxins and diseases.

However, I give those people passes compared to those who absolutely know they are feeding 4D, denatured meats and choose to do so anyway because they can get it for 50 cents a pound. I think the increase in raw feeders is giving alot of people $$$ signs and they are trying to make a buck on it by selling this horrible stuff that nobody wants - except people who feed raw to their dogs. Because of course, dogs can eat ANYTHING and we can pat ourselves on the back for feeding "raw" while in reality we are giving our dogs the worst of the worst. Might as well go to the vet and pick up a few euthanized pets.


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## Liz (Sep 27, 2010)

I agree FBarnes. Once you know better you should do better. We had one vendor in our co-op whose beef was questionable and we stopped buying. I won't wait a few years to see what damage I do to my dogs. I can't afford to feed organic, grain free but they will get parts of the cow and pig we buy this year and the least I can do is feed human grade meats. The only thing we feed that is not at least human grade is sheep lung that we get straight from the processor - not for human consumption (who eats lung) but not denatured and not downed just parts the buyer doesn't want. 


Liz


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## Tobi (Mar 18, 2011)

Picking up a few euthanized pets is going a bit out on the extreme side... I have fed what would be classified as a 4d meat, a cow that had broken its leg, it was culled and I was given some of its freezer burnt remains. That is in no way shape or form in the same ballpark as feeding my dog a euthanized pet. Dogs in nature will hunt down and happily eat a sick, dying, injured or dead animal... If those animals were raised in a humane manor on happy farms and an accident befel it, I would surely feed it, I have an ethical issue however, I know with a fair amount of certainty tht these 4D meats are for the most part coming from cattle lots, and there is a clear difference in the two. I also will not feed denatured meats of any sort, that is why I have a state issued permit


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## bridget246 (Oct 26, 2011)

FBarnes said:


> Frankly, I don't think that's acceptable. Didn't we learn from kibble? Why do we trust that what we are sold is decent? Ignorance is no excuse to give a dog 4D meats when, as raw feeders, we know how we were lied to constantly in order to get us to buy a bag of kibble filled with wretched meat and toxins and diseases.
> 
> However, I give those people passes compared to those who absolutely know they are feeding 4D, denatured meats and choose to do so anyway because they can get it for 50 cents a pound. I think the increase in raw feeders is giving alot of people $$$ signs and they are trying to make a buck on it by selling this horrible stuff that nobody wants - except people who feed raw to their dogs. Because of course, dogs can eat ANYTHING and we can pat ourselves on the back for feeding "raw" while in reality we are giving our dogs the worst of the worst. Might as well go to the vet and pick up a few euthanized pets.


There are pit falls everywhere you look. It took this thread until the second page before we really began to find out what the red dye actually represented. I didn't want to stock up on it so I asked around here to see what people knew about it. Part of the challenge of feeding a balance raw diet is getting good sources and asking questions to others who have more experience. Pointing out what we should have known, or found unacceptable when we are here trying to learn, doesn't help. It doesn't help us and that means it doesn't help our dogs. 

Those who know they are feeding denatured meats still don't know what that means. Honestly, the more I think on this the more compelled I feel to not use any raw suppliers that carry any denatured meat. If this is truly what it is it makes me question the ethics on everything else. Nobody wants to be that paranoid person who runs the other direction with the slight hint of there being something wrong. But when I asked myself if I'd carry this stuff, knowing what it is, and I honestly don't think I could even if it meant losing customers. Especially not if I'm calling myself running a co op that is suppose to represent the health of dogs. That might sound a little harsh but I feel it is true. Just thinking on it makes me feel sick.


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## FBarnes (Feb 17, 2013)

Tobi said:


> Picking up a few euthanized pets is going a bit out on the extreme side... I have fed what would be classified as a 4d meat, a cow that had broken its leg, it was culled and I was given some of its freezer burnt remains. That is in no way shape or form in the same ballpark as feeding my dog a euthanized pet. Dogs in nature will hunt down and happily eat a sick, dying, injured or dead animal... If those animals were raised in a humane manor on happy farms and an accident befel it, I would surely feed it, I have an ethical issue however, I know with a fair amount of certainty tht these 4D meats are for the most part coming from cattle lots, and there is a clear difference in the two. I also will not feed denatured meats of any sort, that is why I have a state issued permit


The 4D animals that are being sold by some of these companies now aren't coming off the farm. I bought some chicken in ignorance - yes I should have known better!! - and it was my first experience with whatever the chicken version is of 4D. I couldn't believe my luck that I found it so cheap and then I found out why. And if they are denatured they came from human grade meat processing plants. If my cow broke it's leg it wouldn't be 4D in the industry vernacular. It would be a cow that broke its leg and I would probably eat it myself and give the dogs the good parts.


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## Tobi (Mar 18, 2011)

But in the case of the USDA, if it is not ambulatory, it is a down cow, and it is then scrapped into the 4d heap... It's a very broad spectrum.


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## FBarnes (Feb 17, 2013)

bridget246 said:


> There are pit falls everywhere you look. It took this thread until the second page before we really began to find out what the red dye actually represented. I didn't want to stock up on it so I asked around here to see what people knew about it. Part of the challenge of feeding a balance raw diet is getting good sources and asking questions to others who have more experience. Pointing out what we should have known, or found unacceptable when we are here trying to learn, doesn't help. It doesn't help us and that means it doesn't help our dogs.
> 
> Those who know they are feeding denatured meats still don't know what that means. Honestly, the more I think on this the more compelled I feel to not use any raw suppliers that carry any denatured meat. If this is truly what it is it makes me question the ethics on everything else. Nobody wants to be that paranoid person who runs the other direction with the slight hint of there being something wrong. But when I asked myself if I'd carry this stuff, knowing what it is, and I honestly don't think I could even if it meant losing customers. Especially not if I'm calling myself running a co op that is suppose to represent the health of dogs. That might sound a little harsh but I feel it is true. Just thinking on it makes me feel sick.


This denatured thing is fairly new in my experience with raw feeding. At least when I first started feeding raw I never saw it - you bought from the grocery store, a butcher, and the raw food companies I bought from places like My Pet Carnivore and Hare Today, had pasture raised animals - non-USDA, not approved for humans, but some of the best raw meat I have ever come across. They don't have to denature it if it's not meant for humans in the first place. Now everywhere I go people are talking about denatured meat. I really think people are jumping on the raw food bandwagon in selling this stuff, and they are just as bad or worse than the kibble people.


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## FBarnes (Feb 17, 2013)

Tobi said:


> But in the case of the USDA, if it is not ambulatory, it is a down cow, and it is then scrapped into the 4d heap... It's a very broad spectrum.


Yes and which cut of meat will you get when you buy it? The broken legged cow or the diseased cow?


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## bridget246 (Oct 26, 2011)

Add blue ridge meat to the list of places that sell denatured meats. I've been feeding their deer and sometimes the duck. I heard it is only certain meats so maybe mines isn't included. For some reason I just assumed it was all good. I'd check packages but I don't have any left.


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## SpinRetrievers (Jun 1, 2013)

I made the decision years ago only to use commercial foods made at EU Cert. plants after seeing how chicken meal was dyed and then redyed back to a whitish brown. Some non-Eu. Cert plants use "human grade" ingredients but not many. 

Even if raw products don't come from a USDA facility they can still be good, or even better. However, dyed meat is proof it was condemned for one reason or another.

All condemned animals are a risk, but poultry is a much better vector for disease than mammals in most cases. I wouldn't want that in my house.


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## FBarnes (Feb 17, 2013)

SpinRetrievers said:


> I made the decision years ago only to use commercial foods made at EU Cert. plants after seeing how chicken meal was dyed and then redyed back to a whitish brown. Some non-Eu. Cert plants use "human grade" ingredients but not many.
> 
> Even if raw products don't come from a USDA facility they can still be good, or even better. However, dyed meat is proof it was condemned for one reason or another.
> 
> All condemned animals are a risk, but poultry is a much better vector for disease than mammals in most cases. I wouldn't want that in my house.


The best meat I've gotten for the dogs has been from non-USDA, non-human grade meat. I do my best to avoid "human grade" grocery store meat - horrible abnormal diet, extreme cruelty, pumped with all kind of crap. I will do it in a pinch but I really don't like feeding it to humans or dogs. When I see someone say "only human grade for my dogs" I cringe a little because I don't think that's a good thing unless it's not factory farmed meat.

And I agree about the chicken although beef is also dyed like crazy to make that nice red color.


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## shellbell (Sep 24, 2011)

bridget246 said:


> I don't shop at RPI anymore because they stop supplying what I use to buy from them and this happened shortly after I joined and paid the membership fee. If they get more stock in at a later date with prices cheaper than what I'm currently paying I will use them again.


I was just on the phone with RPI, they are curious what it is that you used to buy that is no longer supplied by them? 

I had a very informative conversation. Bottom line: they do not denature anything, aside from some red food coloring on the turkey chunks. Nor do they use downed or diseased animals. They are constantly in the plants watching the inspection process, they have been doing this for seven years and have built very good relationships with their suppliers and the insepctors. 

Regarding the turkey chunks. What makes it not fit for human consumption are things like having a vein in the meat, being a rough cut, or having a bit of gristle on it. Nothing to do with the animal being downed or diseased. A new inspector recently started working for the plant that the turkey comes from, and he was insistent on putting red food coloring on the entire top layer of the turkey chunk cases. That is the only reason for that. It is breast meat, and it would be pretty easy for a person to think it was human food.


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## doggiedad (Jan 23, 2011)

you're not buying any of the 4 d's meat. beef is from steer.



Tobi said:


> But in the case of the USDA, if it is not ambulatory, it is a down cow, and it is then scrapped into the 4d heap... It's a very broad spectrum.





FBarnes said:


> Yes and which cut of meat will you get when you buy it? The broken legged cow or the diseased cow?


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## SpinRetrievers (Jun 1, 2013)

shellbell said:


> I was just on the phone with RPI, they are curious what it is that you used to buy that is no longer supplied by them?
> 
> I had a very informative conversation. Bottom line: they do not denature anything, aside from some red food coloring on the turkey chunks. Nor do they use downed or diseased animals. They are constantly in the plants watching the inspection process, they have been doing this for seven years and have built very good relationships with their suppliers and the insepctors.
> 
> Regarding the turkey chunks. What makes it not fit for human consumption are things like having a vein in the meat, being a rough cut, or having a bit of gristle on it. Nothing to do with the animal being downed or diseased. A new inspector recently started working for the plant that the turkey comes from, and he was insistent on putting red food coloring on the entire top layer of the turkey chunk cases. That is the only reason for that. It is breast meat, and it would be pretty easy for a person to think it was human food.


The is not true. Poultry, like other meats, is graded first as wholesome vs unwholesome. It can either be eaten by people or not. If it can't it gets dyed. 

The "quality" gradings like A,B or C are optional. Bad cutting, veins or gristle is not an issue of wholesomeness. The A,B or C ratings have more to do with appearance than quality.


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## SpinRetrievers (Jun 1, 2013)

doggiedad said:


> you're not buying any of the 4 d's meat. beef is from steer.


Steak might be from steer. Spent dairy cows are typically used in ground beef.


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## bett (Mar 15, 2012)

so, again, why is it dyed-to identify it an not for human consumption?


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## SpinRetrievers (Jun 1, 2013)

bett said:


> so, again, why is it dyed-to identify it an not for human consumption?


because the inspector in a USDA inspected plant has determined it to be "unwholesome", meaning it is not safe for people to eat.....

broken bones, veins, bruises and things like that do not determine whether something is "unwholesome", it is something that has been found with the animal that has the potential to cause illness.

the mandate of the USDA is to determine what is safe and what is not, not what is pretty and what is not


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## doggiedad (Jan 23, 2011)

people feeding raw don't use 4 d's meat.



FBarnes said:


> I see more and more talk about these denatured meats on every single forum I frequent. Who wouldn't want the cheapest of the cheap? But that's what's in cheap kibble! not even good kibble!
> 
> Why are raw feeders turning around and feeding the same horrible meat to their dogs that they used to feed in kibble form?


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## SpinRetrievers (Jun 1, 2013)

doggiedad said:


> people feeding raw don't use 4 d's meat.


There is really no way of knowing that for sure.

From a plant that is not inspected and the meat labeled "for animal consumption only", I bet they do...but its possible they don't. However, think about why someone operates a plant solely for products destined for animal consumption.

From a plant that IS USDA inspected and the meat IS dyed (ie denatured), the reason is that it is not safe for people to eat.

It is really a crapshoot. I don't care much about the impact on the dog, I just don't want diseased meat in my house and likewise I won't use dry made with condemned meat either.


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## Lisa R (Apr 13, 2013)

bridget246 said:


> Add blue ridge meat to the list of places that sell denatured meats. I've been feeding their deer and sometimes the duck. I heard it is only certain meats so maybe mines isn't included. For some reason I just assumed it was all good. I'd check packages but I don't have any left.


I've been feeding some Blue Ridge ... Blue Ridge Beef Product Assurance

I thought I was feeding a good product! Several people have recommended them to me.

I'd be interested hearing about your source of information that says they are selling denatured meats.


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## bett (Mar 15, 2012)

SpinRetrievers said:


> because the inspector in a USDA inspected plant has determined it to be "unwholesome", meaning it is not safe for people to eat.....
> 
> broken bones, veins, bruises and things like that do not determine whether something is "unwholesome", it is something that has been found with the animal that has the potential to cause illness.
> 
> the mandate of the USDA is to determine what is safe and what is not, not what is pretty and what is not


so why would anyone use this crap?


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## Liz (Sep 27, 2010)

Bett - sad to say but on some other forums they are thrilled to use it because it is cheap. Honestly if someone had a cow and it broke its leg and was slaughtered I would have no problem feeding it - but diseased? What disease? What illnesses. 

Liz


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## FBarnes (Feb 17, 2013)

doggiedad said:


> people feeding raw don't use 4 d's meat.


Oh yes they do. There is at least one company that admits it, and they sell raw meat. The others may not be forthcoming, but there is a reason it's "denatured" - if they could sell it to humans, they would. It's not just because there's a little gristle in it.

Since it's perfectly legal to use 4D meat for dog food why would they NOT? They make it sound all pretty like that poor cow was just walking across the pasture and fell down and broke her leg. Heck, who's to know unless you go to the factory and look? They are taking meat that would otherwise go to the garbage or to something that doesn't involve eating it, and sell it for dogs - all on the up and up except they don't like to TELL people that it's 4D otherwise they couldn't sell it.


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## FBarnes (Feb 17, 2013)

Everyone should read this article by My Pet Carnivore. It is causing quite a stir amongst the people who defend feeding 4D meats.

https://www.mypetcarnivore.com/inde...iving-for-you-a-your-pet-carnivore&Itemid=144

_"Packaged properly and cleverly "spun", 3D beef has found its way into many raw-fed homes, often without the consumers questioning why there is that 1% charcoal in the ingredient list. When questioned, most companies who use 3-D beef will nonchalantly state that it is a "simple" USDA rule that they have to distinguish the beef that is going into pet food from that being used for human consumption--which of course is true. However, this partial-truth, while placating the vast majority of consumers, ignores the real question--WHY was this beef separated for pet use when you could have sold it for as much as 15 times the amount for human use?"_

They will not accuse raw meat sellers of the 4th D - dead animals - but I don't doubt they use them also. My Pet CArnivore does NOT get their meat from USDA plants - thus it doesn't have to be denatured, condemned, or any form of "D"

Oh, and you also can't get it for 40 cents a pound. Surprise.


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## doggiedad (Jan 23, 2011)

people that feed raw are feeding fresh meat and bone. you can't buy 4 d's meat.



doggiedad said:


> people feeding raw don't use 4 d's meat.





SpinRetrievers said:


> >>>>>There is really no way of knowing that for sure.<<<<<
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## FBarnes (Feb 17, 2013)

I don't get why you keep saying people don't feed it. It's in dry food. Now it's being sold by raw suppliers. You can say people don't feed it a thousand times and it won't make it true.


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## SpinRetrievers (Jun 1, 2013)

FBarnes said:


> I don't get why you keep saying people don't feed it. It's in dry food. Now it's being sold by raw suppliers. You can say people don't feed it a thousand times and it won't make it true.


The only thing they won't process is meat if it tests positive for BSE, which has only been found in one US raised cow in modern history.

Even USDA, FSIS and maybe FDA will swarm those rendering plants if BSE is found.

You have to see diseased poultry if you want to vomit. Poultry decomposes so fast from infection.

That's why I won't use dry food unless its Eu Cert grade chicken meal. It would be best if some European brands were sold here.


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## bridget246 (Oct 26, 2011)

SpinRetrievers said:


> because the inspector in a USDA inspected plant has determined it to be "unwholesome", meaning it is not safe for people to eat.....
> 
> broken bones, veins, bruises and things like that do not determine whether something is "unwholesome", it is something that has been found with the animal that has the potential to cause illness.
> 
> the mandate of the USDA is to determine what is safe and what is not, not what is pretty and what is not


I can understand that. What bothers me is all the trust some are putting in non USDA related places. These places are run by employees just like anything else. Once the money starts to flow in who to say they don't start to cut corners? Just because they didn't dye the meat doesn't make it safe. 



Lisa R said:


> I've been feeding some Blue Ridge ... Blue Ridge Beef Product Assurance
> 
> I thought I was feeding a good product! Several people have recommended them to me.
> 
> I'd be interested hearing about your source of information that says they are selling denatured meats.


Source 1

I had another source but I can't find it in my history. Their meat is USDA approved so they have to add charcoal or something like it to some of their meats is what both my sources had pointed out. I haven't called to confirm anything for certain.



FBarnes said:


> Everyone should read this article by My Pet Carnivore. It is causing quite a stir amongst the people who defend feeding 4D meats.
> 
> https://www.mypetcarnivore.com/inde...iving-for-you-a-your-pet-carnivore&Itemid=144
> 
> ...


Price doesn't matter. A cheap price might be a cause of concern but if they thought you would more readily buy their "4d" meat at 2 dollars a pound they will be more than happy to sell it to you. What I feel MPC is doing here is marketing, good marketing and hopefully it pays off for them. When buying their meat a lot trust goes into the sell and I'm sure some of that trust gets broken in places and the owner may never even know about it. This trust issue is why USDA has such strict standards. I can understand it but I'm still against the dye. 

I'm in no way against MPC. They are currently the only non local supplier that I use. 



shellbell said:


> I was just on the phone with RPI, they are curious what it is that you used to buy that is no longer supplied by them?
> 
> I had a very informative conversation. Bottom line: they do not denature anything, aside from some red food coloring on the turkey chunks. Nor do they use downed or diseased animals. They are constantly in the plants watching the inspection process, they have been doing this for seven years and have built very good relationships with their suppliers and the insepctors.
> 
> Regarding the turkey chunks. What makes it not fit for human consumption are things like having a vein in the meat, being a rough cut, or having a bit of gristle on it. Nothing to do with the animal being downed or diseased. A new inspector recently started working for the plant that the turkey comes from, and he was insistent on putting red food coloring on the entire top layer of the turkey chunk cases. That is the only reason for that. It is breast meat, and it would be pretty easy for a person to think it was human food.


I use to buy their tripe. It is the main reason I signed up for their co op. Everything else was average price and since I was already buying the tripe I didn't see a reason not to get the rest of what I wanted from them. When they stopped carrying it I had to switch to MPC. I liked the quality of MPC tripe a little more so it might be worth the higher price. For Bridget, beef tripe is my number 1 go to food when things aren't going right. It always seems to stare her back into where she needs to be digestion wise so I've been giving it to her at least twice a week and now she is a pretty tough stomach to show for it.

I do remember saying that if anyone had any questions related to RPI all they have to do is contact them. They will be more than happy to answer whatever questions you might have.

My best supplier is local. He sells me the things he could have sold but some people don't want the fat, or this fell on the floor or freezer brunt. I'd love it if I get a hold of some more local meat that they throw away because people don't normally buy it. A lot of that stuff is perfectly safe and people could easily eat so there is no reason at all to mark it. The price would be low because they would normally have to pay to get rid of it. I believe some of our raw feeders are lucky enough to have access to more of this. I'm going to keep working on finding more sources like this.


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## MollyWoppy (Mar 19, 2010)

Just wanted to say that this is a very interesting, informative thread. Thank you!


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## Lisa R (Apr 13, 2013)

Source 1

I had another source but I can't find it in my history. Their meat is USDA approved so they have to add charcoal or something like it to some of their meats is what both my sources had pointed out. I haven't called to confirm anything for certain.


First off... thank you for a very interesting discussion! I always appreciate learning new things! From the information you supplied it appears that this is not a new subject (2009). 

I read the thread you posted as source 1. While I found it educational... I didn't find any listed proof that Blue Ridge was selling denatured meat. I've looked at all the chubs I have in my freezer and I see nothing that indicated that they are denatured. I did find a thread (on that same yahoo group posted a few weeks later) posted by a guy who actually contacted Blue Ridge and asked them directly if they sold denatured meat.... I assume it is OK to link here ... 

marylandrawfeedingco-op : Messages : 2490-2490 of 5658

All the meats I purchased from Blue Ridge have bone in .. that is probably why mine are not labeled denatured. 

I thank you again for your question which called this issue to our attention. I will now be on the look out for denatured meat...


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## kathylcsw (Jul 31, 2011)

Lisa R said:


> Source 1
> 
> I had another source but I can't find it in my history. Their meat is USDA approved so they have to add charcoal or something like it to some of their meats is what both my sources had pointed out. I haven't called to confirm anything for certain.
> 
> ...


Since I use Blue Ridge Beef to get tripe, rabbit, and quail I emailed them after reading this thread. They told me that they do not use denatured meat. They raise their own meat according to their response. So I am going to keep using it.


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## bett (Mar 15, 2012)

none of my husband's suppliers from a prime shop know anything of what this thread is about. but ok, that's a prime shop and by the time the stuff gets to them god knows what goes on.

my statement is this. red dye is for crayons, not for us, or our animals. kibble feeders are trying to be so careful not to feed stuff like (sorry, kibbles and bits), we try and not let have kids have fruit loops, so why on earth would we feed anything with dyes in in?

mother nature did her own coloring, why this crap?


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## SpinRetrievers (Jun 1, 2013)

bett said:


> none of my husband's suppliers from a prime shop know anything of what this thread is about. but ok, that's a prime shop and by the time the stuff gets to them god knows what goes on.
> 
> my statement is this. red dye is for crayons, not for us, or our animals. kibble feeders are trying to be so careful not to feed stuff like (sorry, kibbles and bits), we try and not let have kids have fruit loops, so why on earth would we feed anything with dyes in in?
> 
> mother nature did her own coloring, why this crap?


This is all part of the Federal Code Section 325. The USDA & FSIS implement this. It is no secret that condemned meat must be marked, dyed and identified in some way so it doesn't get back into the food chain.

I don't think trained human butchers will know anything about this, thank god!!!!!


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## Lisa R (Apr 13, 2013)

kathylcsw said:


> Since I use Blue Ridge Beef to get tripe, rabbit, and quail I emailed them after reading this thread. They told me that they do not use denatured meat. They raise their own meat according to their response. So I am going to keep using it.


Kathy,

Thank you! 

I shot my distributor an e-mail this morning. Still waiting a response but I'm sure it will be the same.


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## bridget246 (Oct 26, 2011)

bett said:


> none of my husband's suppliers from a prime shop know anything of what this thread is about. but ok, that's a prime shop and by the time the stuff gets to them god knows what goes on.
> 
> my statement is this. red dye is for crayons, not for us, or our animals. kibble feeders are trying to be so careful not to feed stuff like (sorry, kibbles and bits), we try and not let have kids have fruit loops, so why on earth would we feed anything with dyes in in?
> 
> mother nature did her own coloring, why this crap?


I completely agree about the dye. The fact that it is there is a problem regardless of the reason as to why it is there. I have no plans on feeding my baby anything with red dye in it so I don't have any plans on giving that to my dog assuming it is made out of the same thing. This is regardless of what may have happened to the animal in question. I believe the dye in itself to a problem. Since I can't find out exactly what the dye is made from it is probably best to avoid it.



kathylcsw said:


> Since I use Blue Ridge Beef to get tripe, rabbit, and quail I emailed them after reading this thread. They told me that they do not use denatured meat. They raise their own meat according to their response. So I am going to keep using it.


I'd keep using it too if you trust them. When it comes to the quality of the meat we get it is hard to verify the results of what we are actually getting. I happen to notice that your not getting the beef and or the chicken. Maybe this was a problem only related to around 2008?(see new sources) In 5 years a lot could change. It doesn't seem to be red dye but charcoal that gets added and maybe they aren't calling it denatured. Try asking them if they add charcoal to their beef and make it seem like you aren't concerned about what they tell you. Phone calls will probably breed more honesty than e-mails. 



> This meat used to have hunks of charcoal added, and it was intended for food for the racing Greyhounds - that's a big thing in FL (racing dogs, that is). Don't know who thot that diseased meat would be good for dogs - probably the people who couldn't sell it to anyone else - but then some enterprising soul decided cats could eat it, too, if they took the charcoal out. It has no supplements, no bone, and is just gross to look at. Their literature, their website, their reps - no where do they ever disclose the grade of the meat, and if you ask what it is, they will hem and haw until the sun comes up, without answering your question. If you look the rep in the face and ask point blank if the meat is 3-D, they will admit to it - that's what I had to do to find out.
> 
> I tell everyone I see with it what it is, and the BR folks don't like me any better than Royal Canin does. The cat exhibitors like it because it's cheap - about $1 for beef, less for chicken and rabbit - but you would think they would wonder how BR could sell human grade beef for that kind of money! Fortunately, right now at least, they are only doing business in the SE part of the US, as you can see from their show schedule and their distributor list.
> 
> ...


source



> Back in September 2008 while researching raw food brands, I heard about Blue Ridge Beef and tried to locate it in my area to no avail. Apparently some cat breeders in the area sold limited amounts of it but at the time, they were out of it. I called the company and found out the Blue Ridge guy was coming up to a big national cat show right near here so I arranged to meet him and buy some frozen raw meat. They had a table set up there and he was also most likely making his deliveries to the local cat breeders who were selling it here in VA.
> 
> He had a truck with refrigeration and we went out to his truck in the parking lot. I told him what I wanted, paid him and as I walked back to my car I noticed some of the rolls were marked as having charcoal added. That sounded weird to me, so I asked him what this meant. His answer was something to the effect of "oh, you have to do that if you are traveling with meat across state lines". Huh? This was not a satisfactory answer for me upon thinking about it, so I ended up chucking the whole bunch when I got home. Later I found out that the USDA requires rendered meat not fit for human consumption to have charcoal added to it so it is obvious to anyone who might eat it - that you shouldn't eat it....


source





MollyWoppy said:


> Just wanted to say that this is a very interesting, informative thread. Thank you!


It has been very informative. I hope nobody is getting any bad feelings from this thread. I started this off as a concern against red dye and it has breed into something else entirely. Overall I've been really enjoying the info that is being posted and love it when people site their sources even if it isn't accurate info, I still like seeing where it came from. Hopefully it will lead to us all making a more informed decision when it comes to feeding our dogs. The fact that we all are not agreeing is only adding more information to the table for us all to enjoy.


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## FBarnes (Feb 17, 2013)

I THINK some have an ingredients list? Probably not all. Although there is one company's, Dan's something, that identifies it's denaturing material only as "black liquid." Apparently they are selling alot of meat to raw feeders.


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