# No veggies AT ALL? No one here doing veggies?



## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

OK just when I am all hyped up about this, I run into something like this:

I wanted to start with Bravo! because I still have to get set up with everything else, and I found a local Bravo! dealer and asked her for the meat-only package, and this is what she said:

"Just checking -- you will be adding vegetables separately then, yes? I ask because occasionally people try meat only or meat and bone only as a total diet, which of course cannot be healthy long term! Balance and variety is key."

first of all, I have never bought something where the person selling is interrogating me on how I will use it. That kind of weirded me out. Second of all, I have to admit - I can find no definitive scientific research that says dogs can eat like wolves. 

I guess my next best thing is this question - is there anyone on here who has a dog 10-up who they started on a raw diet when they were already elderly? 

I also read on one site that if you start a dog off on ground-up meat, they can get an impaction. That kind of worries me, as I can't feed her meat that's not ground up.

I will look at the links given to me in my introductory thread, I need to go back and put THANK YOUs on those! I didn't know you had that here. But there are a couple that point me to a site where people are feeding raw to old dogs, I need to find out if there are veggies included in that.

Thanks to you all!!


----------



## CavePaws (Jan 25, 2011)

I started my 11 year old terrier mix late in life. He switched like he had been longing for a Prey Model diet his entire life. I haven't had any issues with him. I include no carbs in his diet at all because those contribute to his digestive issues and his stools become loose. One of the many benefits I have seen is that his anal glands have not needed expression, they were being expressed every other month. It's all that bone, it's good for him. ;]

I don't add veggies personally. I don't see a need to. I give my dogs veggies and fruit as snacks on occasion, but a lot of the time it is just for a laugh, because they normally just lick it, attempt to chew it, spit it out, and nose it about like they don't know what to do with it.


----------



## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

Thanks - my dog gets her anal glands expressed every month also.

OK, I'm going to email back and say no, I'm not feeding any veggies. If she won't sell to me, then she won't sell to me.


----------



## CavePaws (Jan 25, 2011)

Wow, that would be so odd of someone to refuse to sell it to you. One thing is the food may not be properly balanced which is why she is suggesting you add veggies. I haven't looked into Bravo. Have you looked at the analysis and ingredients list? Is there enough offal to make up 10% of the diet and enough calcium added to balance the Calcium/Phosphorous ratio?


----------



## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

Hmm, don't know. Maybe I should wait anyway, to get the meat grinder. The ingredients list just says "Antibiotic-free, skinless chicken necks and bones."

and 

Crude Protein (min%) 17.10% 
Crude Fiber (max%) .21% 
Crude Fat (min%) 11.20% 
Moisture (max%) 68.27%

If all I need if I am buying meat is the chicken, wouldn't this be the same thing?


----------



## CavePaws (Jan 25, 2011)

Yes. Get your meat grinder, get some chicken muscle meat, and get some organs. You're saving money in the long run if you just buy the grinder! :] And it will be easier to feed your pup because you know exactly what to include.
So. They don't include "offal" which is an essential part of the all meat diet. This is why they tell you to add veggies, which unless pulverized, will do nothing for your dog.

If you are going to grind I would include this:
1. Chicken muscle meat, a tiny bit of chicken heart (considered a muscle technically, however, it does have essential nutrients), and bone (adjust the amount accordingly when you are starting out, so the first week give a fair amount of bone)
2. Organs (Mostly liver, kidneys if you can source them - if you buy chicken quarters a lot of the time they still have organs attached)

Some people on here will say that you shouldn't add organs in until your dog has been eating just muscle meat for a while. I didn't do this with my dogs, I added organ meat in pretty early because I was paranoid of what would happen if I didn't (most people say nothing, as nutritional deficiencies take a while to develop) If you do add organ, go slowly.


----------



## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

More ignorance here - what is offal?? I always thought offal was poop.


----------



## CavePaws (Jan 25, 2011)

Offal = organs!

I feed liver, spleen, kidneys, and heart (although considered a muscle meat) I have fed these from cows, chickens, and pigs.


----------



## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

Ah - as I understand it, I don't do that for 2-6 weeks. So if she WILL sell it to me, I can still do that until I get the grinder. Now, when I start feeding my big dog, there is no way I could afford it pre-ground, but then again he can eat it without grinding


----------



## DaneMama (Jun 27, 2008)

Organs shouldnt be added in until 2-3 months.


----------



## Northwoods10 (Nov 22, 2010)

We only feed fruits & veggies as snacks here, not as an actual part of the meal. 

Do whatever you are comfortable with doing. 

Buying pre-made ground is silly if you have access to a grinder to do it yourself...especially from the big companies like Bravo, Natures Variety, etc. I know cabelas has grinders on sale occasionally, check them out. 

I am sure the salesperson was a BARF feeder and not PMR...there's a big difference between the two. Google them both and you'll see the differences pretty quickly. 

Best of luck!


----------



## chowder (Sep 7, 2008)

xellil said:


> I guess my next best thing is this question - is there anyone on here who has a dog 10-up who they started on a raw diet when they were already elderly?
> 
> I also read on one site that if you start a dog off on ground-up meat, they can get an impaction. That kind of worries me, as I can't feed her meat that's not ground up.
> 
> ...


Chelsy was 13 years old when I first started her on raw. She is over 14 now and is on mostly ground raw. I NEVER give her any veggies or fruit. Those are two things that really can set off her colitis and allergies. In fact, we tried the Bravo and other premade raw mixes and most of them have so many extra ingredients that she got sick on them. The plain Bravo was the only one she could handle. I think that the reps HAVE to tell you to add vegies to the plain meat versions because they are not considered 'complete and balanced' by the dog food manufacturers and they don't want to be liable if your dog gets sick.

None of my dogs have ever had a problem eating ground meat. I only grind the meat that has bones in it. The organs and boneless meat I just cut up into cubes that she can gulp down whole. 

You can also start giving canned fish and eggs before you have a grinder. Mine eat sardines, salmon, tuna, etc, and eggs. Once you add in the organs, fish, eggs, etc, there is no need to add veggies or fruit or grains to the dogs diet.


----------



## Liz (Sep 27, 2010)

Hi
I switched my boy at 9 1/2 years old. He has all his teeth so ground is not an issue but he gets only meat, bone and organ. He has been eating this way almost a year and I get nothing but compliments on my "youngster" he acts and looks half his age. No constipation. He eats all variety of chicken, cornish game hen, duck necks, lamb lung, beef (all cuts), pork ribs, roasts, hocks, feet, goat and rabbit. I have a grinder I use when weaning puppies onto raw and have ground chicken, cornish game hen, rabbit, duck necks, heavier bone is too hard for my grinder. I would not go back to kibble or even BARF. He is looking and obviously feeling so wonderful. I was expecting arthritis to start settling in as he is a large collie at 85 pounds but he still moves like a dream and I do attribute that to his diet. I look forward to enjoying my boy for several more years. Vegetable are not missed though they love to share bananas and oranges with us but they don't need it and all they get is a nibble here and there. He is they guy in my profile.


----------



## RawFedDogs (Jun 16, 2008)

Back when I first started feeding raw, I had 2 10yo Goldens. They had no problems. I fed veggie slop once a week in the beginning but found out after a few months that they weren't necessary so I dropped them from the diet. I had Abby, my 11yo Dane when I first began feeding raw and she has been eating raw for 9 years. No fruits or veggies after the first few weeks. The only reason they got the veggies the first few weeks is because I didn't know any better.


----------



## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

xellil said:


> OK just when I am all hyped up about this, I run into something like this:
> 
> I wanted to start with Bravo! because I still have to get set up with everything else, and I found a local Bravo! dealer and asked her for the meat-only package, and this is what she said:
> 
> ...


we started our corgi mix malia girl on raw when she was ten.....it took her two meals, and then she was hooked....she is now over eleven and her teeth have become stronger...we do not feed vegetables and fruits because both have sugar, first of all, and secondly, they are carbs and dogs do not digest carbs. they are not omnivores. they are carnivores.

i don't eat grains because i am not an herbivore....gets confusing i know...it is contrary to everything we've been raised to believe.

but, when i see the results of feeding bone, protein and organs, i can't argue with what my eyes tell me is true. they radiate health...and, believe me, it's real obvious when a human or dog is not healthy.

may i ask why you can only feed ground?

ground does not cause an impaction...but ground give your dog no challenge either....and part of their crunching and gnawing helps clean their teeth...

did i miss something? did you mention your dog doesn't have teeth?


----------



## SilverBeat (Jan 16, 2011)

magicre said:


> may i ask why you can only feed ground?


I think she mentioned in another thread her dog has hardly any teeth.


----------



## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

yes, she has only four teeth.

So I do plan on giving her maybe neck bone to gnaw on that she can't swallow whole, but I can't force her to get all her nutrition that way - sometimes it will take her 2-3 minutes to eat a piece of weenie. All of her dog food I have to soak and soften for her or she struggles to get it down.

Thanks, I am very excited to get started - I don't know if our local stores have meat grinders, but I am going to look this afternoon. It seems ALOT of people started their dogs when they were as old as mine.

One thing I don't want to do is show up at the ER with a food-related issue on this, i have enough trouble with those people as it is.


----------



## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

xellil said:


> yes, she has only four teeth.
> 
> So I do plan on giving her maybe neck bone to gnaw on that she can't swallow whole, but I can't force her to get all her nutrition that way - sometimes it will take her 2-3 minutes to eat a piece of weenie. All of her dog food I have to soak and soften for her or she struggles to get it down.
> 
> ...


i'm sorry.....i remember the discussion now.....

i thought the best suggestion i had heard was to buy a grinder, and grind your chicken or turkey...and when you get up to hamburger, grind chicken bones in it....

you can also use human bone meal (NOW -- is the brand) and egg shells....

ground meat shouldn't cause an impaction...it's ground and probably passes through the intestinal tract more easily, since it's kind of like chewed already : )

be excited. i think you're going to be oh so pleased.


----------



## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

Yes, I am going to take that advice, get the grinder and get started. hopefully, i can start her at supper tonight. I don't have any place like Cabela's close to me, but maybe someplace like KMart or Sears has a small one for now, until I can order a better one. 

Since she got sick last weekend and we had to go back to the ER, she is not liking her food too much, and this is a dog that will try to scrape a squashed tomato that has been run over 50 times off a parking lot.

she is eating all her other stuff with gusto - cottage cheese, pumpkin, yogurt etc. so I think the dry dog food is just turning her stomach.


----------



## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

Oh, and i love all the stuff about the teeth so I do want her to chew bones - she only has four teeth but they are prone to infection and she is currently on antibiotics at the start of every month, to stop an infection since she can't go under anesthesia to clean her teeth because of her heart issue. So I am hopeful this new diet will help her in alot of ways.


----------



## DaneMama (Jun 27, 2008)

Is her heart issue due to the periodontal disease? Heart problems are common with dogs with bad dental hygiene.


----------



## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

DaneMama said:


> Is her heart issue due to the periodontal disease? Heart problems are common with dogs with bad dental hygiene.


Likely - I haven't had her her entire life. She was turned over to animal control to be put to sleep at 12 years old - her teeth were green and rotten, and crumbling. So she had an infection that had been there for a long time. Add to that she was horribly overweight, with her toenails growing into the bottoms of her feet, so she had not been out of a cage in months, if not years. 

In addition, I think dachsunds have a genetic predisposition to heart disease, so she her heart had no chance, because of genetics and neglectI want to keep her alive as long as I can - right now she is very active and happy.

I am attaching a photo (I'm don't think I'm doing this right but maybe you can see it) - this is of her at 12 pounds, she is now down to 10 pounds. She started off at almost 20 pounds.


----------



## Ania's Mommy (Feb 8, 2009)

If you are going to be grinding bones, I don't think that any of the meat grinders at KMart or the like will handle them well if at all. You may want to check online. I think that Chowder found a really good one that's warranty wasn't voided by grinding bones. Hopefully she'll speak up, or I'll stop being lazy long enough to do a search for ya... :becky:


----------



## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

Ania's Mommy said:


> If you are going to be grinding bones, I don't think that any of the meat grinders at KMart or the like will handle them well if at all. You may want to check online. I think that Chowder found a really good one that's warranty wasn't voided by grinding bones. Hopefully she'll speak up, or I'll stop being lazy long enough to do a search for ya... :becky:


Well, this would just be temporary until I can get one delivered - someone posted a link on another thread that has one that looks really sturdy. I would really like to get her started on this food ASAP. And, I'd like to try it for a few days before I make what looks like might be close to a $500 investment in a grinder.


----------



## RachelsaurusRexU (Sep 4, 2010)

xellil said:


> Likely - I haven't had her her entire life. She was turned over to animal control to be put to sleep at 12 years old - her teeth were green and rotten, and crumbling. So she had an infection that had been there for a long time. Add to that she was horribly overweight, with her toenails growing into the bottoms of her feet, so she had not been out of a cage in months, if not years.
> 
> In addition, I think dachsunds have a genetic predisposition to heart disease, so she her heart had no chance, because of genetics and neglectI want to keep her alive as long as I can - right now she is very active and happy.
> 
> I am attaching a photo (I'm don't think I'm doing this right but maybe you can see it) - this is of her at 12 pounds, she is now down to 10 pounds. She started off at almost 20 pounds.


Good for you for adopting a dog that most would overlook!


----------



## RaisingWolves (Mar 19, 2011)

I think My Pet Carnivore is in your area for pick-up.
Indianapolis Area Pick-up & Delivery | My Pet Carnivore

This is who I buy from once a month( i need delivery) They sell whole prey ground mixes. They have a large selection and I have been very happy with the quality. Their meat sources are from farm raised, grass fed. Very nice owners too.


----------



## Ania's Mommy (Feb 8, 2009)

xellil said:


> Well, this would just be temporary until I can get one delivered - someone posted a link on another thread that has one that looks really sturdy. I would really like to get her started on this food ASAP. And, I'd like to try it for a few days before I make what looks like might be close to a $500 investment in a grinder.


Oh good! Then I will just stay lazy! I would go the human grade bone meal route for now then.


----------



## luvMyBRT (Mar 8, 2010)

xellil said:


> I guess my next best thing is this question - is there anyone on here who has a dog 10-up who they started on a raw diet when they were already elderly?


Yup. Lucky will be 12 this year and we are about 8 months in. And let me tell you.....she is doing awesome!


----------



## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

temporarily you can use dried ground egg shells or human grade bone meal from a supplement store...until you get the grinder you need.....that way you're not wasting your money, since you can buy already ground turkey or chicken which should be fine to start out with.


----------



## Liz (Sep 27, 2010)

I gor this grinder off ebay and it will do all chicken parts, cornish game hen, turkey breast bones, and necks. I have had mine a year.

TRUE #12 2800W Electric Meat Grinder Stuffer 3+ HP DEERw/ TRIPLE GUARD MOTOR PROTECTION - SamBaere OEM Brand
15 Bids $70.01 Time left:1d 6h 50m


----------



## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

RaisingWolves said:


> I think My Pet Carnivore is in your area for pick-up.
> Indianapolis Area Pick-up & Delivery | My Pet Carnivore
> 
> This is who I buy from once a month( i need delivery) They sell whole prey ground mixes. They have a large selection and I have been very happy with the quality. Their meat sources are from farm raised, grass fed. Very nice owners too.


this is EXACTLY what I need - i just had a conversation with my husband where he said he didn't want to feed her store-bought chicken.


----------



## hamblekg (Feb 1, 2011)

I have 2 pugs and a 100 lb large mix breed (CJ) on raw. CJ was 11 years old when I began feeding raw. He's doing well and his teeth - MUCH better! I started out doing a "veggie" slop which I gave the boys once a week. But since they also get treat plates when I leave for work (and I've NEVER had a dog that was anxious when I leave the house because of this <G>); in which they get carrots, cut up pieces of apple, pear; brussel sprouts (1 or 2 a week); and a cookie or extra treat as well as a piece (2") of cooked liver (usually beef); I didn't feel they needed extra. Then again, I still have cans of fruit, apricots etc. so I could make one up if I felt the need. You never know........ Go by what you feel is the best for your dogs, with lots of reading thrown in. You'll do whats best. ttfn


----------



## RawFedDogs (Jun 16, 2008)

xellil said:


> this is EXACTLY what I need - i just had a conversation with my husband where he said he didn't want to feed her store-bought chicken.


For what reason? Chicken bought in grocery stores is hormone free and steriod free. That is ALL chicken and turkey.


----------



## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

RawFedDogs said:


> For what reason? Chicken bought in grocery stores is hormone free and steriod free. That is ALL chicken and turkey.


In another lifetime, I had a job feeding cattle. I didn't give them hormones, but I sure filled them up with antibiotics.

Now, I'm not sure how much antibiotics are given to chicken/beef today that goes into the grocery, but I think they still hevily use antibiotics even though the FDA has banned injecting the eggs with cephalosporin.

I do think it is a little ironic, though - we eat store-bought chicken all the time. Maybe I should order some dog food for us.


----------



## CavePaws (Jan 25, 2011)

I don't know about chickens being anti-biotic or hormone free, you would think if they weren't it would be mentioned on the packaging? I know cattle, unless organic, are loaded with things like antibiotics. They try to make up for the terrible condition factory farmed animals are kept in. It's sad because if conditions improved for them then a lot of the time this could be avoided. If they lose a cow they lose money. I feel bad for supporting the industry and not supporting local farmers, but I decided to eat meat a few years ago and it's not affordable for me to buy grass fed items. Whenever I'm in a better financial position I probably will. I think the health benefits are great if you can find grass-fed animals.

Corn Fed Beef vs Grass Fed Beef - Corn Fed vs. Grass Fed living conditions.
Poultry Raised Without the Routine Use of Antibiotics - Antibiotics in poultry

The reasons for Antibiotic Use
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/7c/Industrial-Chicken-Coop.JPG
http://affc.locallygrown.net/files/document/document/461/original/cow-feed-lot.jpg
http://www.3news.co.nz/Portals/0-Articles/134223/cows.jpg?width=300

How you can kind of fix it:
http://www.nevadacountyfreerangebeef.com/graphics/cowsShade.jpg
http://jacobscove.files.wordpress.com/2010/01/free-range2.jpeg


----------



## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

xellil said:


> In another lifetime, I had a job feeding cattle. I didn't give them hormones, but I sure filled them up with antibiotics.
> 
> Now, I'm not sure how much antibiotics are given to chicken/beef today that goes into the grocery, but I think they still hevily use antibiotics even though the FDA has banned injecting the eggs with cephalosporin.
> 
> ...


here's the thing with proteins used to make bravo and primal and other pre made raws...you don't know where their chickens are coming from either.....

at least with the chicken in the store, you can look at it, touch it, know that it wasn't rendered....4D.....and it can't have antibiotics or hormones in high doses because it would be against the law.


----------



## 3Musketeers (Nov 4, 2010)

CavePaws said:


> I don't know about chickens being anti-biotic or hormone free, you would think if they weren't it would be mentioned on the packaging? I know cattle, unless organic, are loaded with things like antibiotics. They try to make up for the terrible condition factory farmed animals are kept in. It's sad because if conditions improved for them then a lot of the time this could be avoided. If they lose a cow they lose money. I feel bad for supporting the industry and not supporting local farmers, but I decided to eat meat a few years ago and it's not affordable for me to buy grass fed items. Whenever I'm in a better financial position I probably will. I think the health benefits are great if you can find grass-fed animals.
> 
> Corn Fed Beef vs Grass Fed Beef - Corn Fed vs. Grass Fed living conditions.
> Poultry Raised Without the Routine Use of Antibiotics - Antibiotics in poultry
> ...


If only grass-fed meats were more affordable . The use of hormones/antibiotics should be outlawed.


On another note... anyone want to buy me a farmhouse to raise our own animals? lol


----------



## monkeys23 (Dec 8, 2010)

Many natural beef producers (like us!) have a hormone and antiobiotic free program.
Any animal that has to be given antibiotics for an illness is dropped out of our program and sold on the regular market instead.

I personally find grocery store beef nasty. I can totally taste the difference. It in no way compares.

I feel very lucky I can feed my dogs meat of this caliber.


----------



## monkeys23 (Dec 8, 2010)

3Musketeers said:


> If only grass-fed meats were more affordable . The use of hormones/antibiotics should be outlawed.
> 
> 
> On another note... anyone want to buy me a farmhouse to raise our own animals? lol


It does not have to be grass fed to be hormone and antibiotic free. :wink:

We do grain finish most animals, but its locally grown feed with nothing added to it.

All our lamb however is just grass finished.


----------



## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

monkeys23 said:


> Many natural beef producers (like us!) have a hormone and antiobiotic free program.
> Any animal that has to be give


Where are you??? When i was married to a cowboy, way back in the dark ages, we got paid just about zero - but we got a free house and all the grass-fed beef we could eat. I have never, in the 30 years since, had meat that good.


----------



## RawFedDogs (Jun 16, 2008)

CavePaws said:


> I don't know about chickens being anti-biotic or hormone free, you would think if they weren't it would be mentioned on the packaging?


They are usually but not necessarily antibiotic free. My brother has 16 chicken houses and he uses antibiotics when there is an outbreak of something in one of the houses but otherwise doesn't. It is illegal to give hormones or steriods and also illegal to say so on the package because it would make your product appear superior to all the others for that reason and they aren't.



> I know cattle, unless organic, are loaded with things like antibiotics.


I'm not sure but I THINK "organic" has nothing to do with antibiotics but is about food, pestisides, etc.


----------



## CavePaws (Jan 25, 2011)

I wonder how often outbreaks occur in huge factory farms, though? 
I don't know, I would think an "organic" cow wouldn't be considered "organic" after given antibiotics. Maybe they are, I don't know if it has to do with the pesticides in their feed.


----------



## RaisingWolves (Mar 19, 2011)

A veterinary naturopathe told me that many dogs will have allergic reactions to store bought chickens because factory farmed chickens are fed a soy diet, then are put through a chlorination process prior to reaching our store shelves, and finally injected enhancements.
Here is what Dr. Oz has to say about our commercially raised chickens.
What's In the Nation's Chicken, Pt. 1 | The Dr. Oz Show


----------



## SilverBeat (Jan 16, 2011)

Certified Organic animals are not treated with antibiotics. Many organic farmers use things like garlic, diatomaceous earth and apple cider vinegar to treat and prevent diseases in certified organic animals. From Living With Sheep by Chuck Wooster:


> The second--and more formidable problem--with raising animals organically is the question of what to do when they get sick... medications that we ourselves typically use--and freely use on our pet dogs and cats--cannot be used on certified organic sheep.


He goes on to note that some farms have two separate flocks or herds--one organic and one not. If a sheep [or cow or goat or llama, etc] becomes ill, it is moved into the non-organic flock/herd and treated with conventional medicines.


----------



## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

from what i understand, it's a matter of how much and how often antibiotics are used.

if a cow gets sick, they will use an antibiotic.....but sparingly, as opposed to places that vicariously use antibiotics...

if the fda and usda are to be believed, it has to say on the package that this piece of beef or whatever is antibiotic free and hormone free and it then has to be free....but there is an exception to antibiotics, just as there is an allowed amount of bacteria in milk....so, if the cow gets a dose of antibiotics...then it's still considered antibiotic free. 

believe me, for a while, they were shooting these animals up with all kinds of stuff, worse than body builders on 'roids.

but.

that doesn't mean totally free of antibiotics. it just means less is used.

hormones, on the other hand......even the feedlots are getting away from that....and again, it has to say it on the labeling that it is hormone free or 'we never ever use hormones, swear on my kids'.....or something to that effect.


----------



## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

SilverBeat said:


> Certified Organic animals are not treated with antibiotics. Many organic farmers use things like garlic, diatomaceous earth and apple cider vinegar to treat and prevent diseases in certified organic animals. From Living With Sheep by Chuck Wooster:
> 
> 
> He goes on to note that some farms have two separate flocks or herds--one organic and one not. If a sheep [or cow or goat or llama, etc] becomes ill, it is moved into the non-organic flock/herd and treated with conventional medicines.


i find that interesting....for then, i may never buy an organic animal....let's face it, they live outdoors....they have no protection....and yes, i'm one of those believers in vaccines for children.....i don't give antibiotics if there is no reason to, but sometimes there are reasons to....

i don't know what to think of this.


----------



## SilverBeat (Jan 16, 2011)

magicre said:


> i find that interesting....for then, i may never buy an organic animal....let's face it, they live outdoors....they have no protection....and yes, i'm one of those believers in vaccines for children.....i don't give antibiotics if there is no reason to, but sometimes there are reasons to....
> 
> i don't know what to think of this.


I don't want to derail this thread but I'll just say this...

Raising animals organically seems difficult when you look at it like this ["if they get sick you can't medicate them"], but you have to look at it in a different light. Think of it not as a handicap, or a hinderance, but as a new opportunity. One thing is not available so you use something else. Take worming for example. Many shepherds worm their sheep routinely, no matter what, like clockwork. This is not necessary and it creates superworms--worms that are resistant to the various forms of wormers out there. 
So what do organic farmers do? They don't use conventional wormers at all. Some use a mixture of apple cider vinegar and garlic, still others make use of things like rotational grazing and whatever poultry they have on hand. They simply run their birds through the pasture after the sheep. This is just one of many ways that organic farmers mimic nature--the fowl follow the large herbivores, sift through their poop and eat all the worm eggs, undigested seeds and other goodies in it. This way the manure is naturally spread on the fields with little effort from the farmer, and the worms' life cycle is interrupted. 

Organic farming is not "a pill for every ill," rather it's using your brain and figuring out a real solution to a problem.


----------



## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

SilverBeat said:


> I don't want to derail this thread but I'll just say this...
> 
> Raising animals organically seems difficult when you look at it like this ["if they get sick you can't medicate them"], but you have to look at it in a different light. Think of it not as a handicap, or a hinderance, but as a new opportunity. One thing is not available so you use something else. Take worming for example. Many shepherds worm their sheep routinely, no matter what, like clockwork. This is not necessary and it creates superworms--worms that are resistant to the various forms of wormers out there.
> So what do organic farmers do? They don't use conventional wormers at all. Some use a mixture of apple cider vinegar and garlic, still others make use of things like rotational grazing and whatever poultry they have on hand. They simply run their birds through the pasture after the sheep. This is just one of many ways that organic farmers mimic nature--the fowl follow the large herbivores, sift through their poop and eat all the worm eggs, undigested seeds and other goodies in it. This way the manure is naturally spread on the fields with little effort from the farmer, and the worms' life cycle is interrupted.
> ...


this i understand. believe me. overuse of traditional antibiotics creates all kinds of super bugs like mrsa, c.diff and more and more are coming. i get that.

but, used judiciously, antibiotics have their place, don't they? 

what i'm talking about is not the method to worm a sheep, but if the sheep has an infection, then what? 

antibiotics, i believe, have their place, they just have had too much place over the years, is what i think.


----------



## 3Musketeers (Nov 4, 2010)

monkeys23 said:


> Many natural beef producers (like us!) have a hormone and antiobiotic free program.
> Any animal that has to be given antibiotics for an illness is dropped out of our program and sold on the regular market instead.
> 
> I personally find grocery store beef nasty. I can totally taste the difference. It in no way compares.
> ...


Willing to ship to Florida? Hahahah...
I've never even tasted "natural beef", suppose I'm used to the not so tasty stuff >_<.


----------



## naturalfeddogs (Jan 6, 2011)

I haven't gone through all the posts here, but as far as the veggies go, I don't feed any at all. I don't believe they are necessary or useful in there diet.


----------



## 3Musketeers (Nov 4, 2010)

Sorry I went offtopic.

To the main point, most of us (including me) don't feed veggies. I do let the dogs eat all the grass and shrubs they want, but that's it for plant matter.


----------



## MollyWoppy (Mar 19, 2010)

I don't give my dog (or cat) any veggies either. But, if they want to eat grass, then its up to them, I just let them go to town. I'm so bloody thoughtful though, I put a pot plant full of lemon grass out in the pool cage, just so they can have a munch if they feel like it.


----------

