# Concerns about Raw and Puppies - Lenghty



## April 2012 (Feb 8, 2012)

This is going to be a lengthy post, so I warn you now.

As some of you already know, we are getting a Boxer puppy in June. We have done quite a bit of research through this process and have learned quite a bit. I'd like to state right off that kibble companies haven't convinced me.

In my research I have come across the raw diet. There are a few variations in the raw diet and we accept that others have their beliefs and why they choose this diet for their dogs. Through my research it makes sense to me to want to feed raw, and I do, but I have many concerns before I truly decide. Please feel free to comment on my various concerns. 

Firstly, what concerns me is that there is so little information for switching a puppy to a raw diet. I read conflicting information as to the amount of food to be fed. I generally get two recommendations for the amount to feed a puppy. Some places suggest 10% of their current weight and others suggest 2-3% of their ideal body weight. Also, some places suggest going cold turkey and eliminating kibble from their diet completely and other places suggest a slow wean. 

Another thing that throws me off is the ratio of bone to feed. I understand that ideally 10% of their diet should be bone. Most say to check their poop and adjust the bone according to that. But, for someone as new as I am 10% is generalizing and checking poop is new as well. Mind you, we've had dogs before but never investigated their poop let alone try to determine if they need more of something or less of something in their diet. So, basically, going by their poop would be difficult at first because it's been years since we've seen dog poop. 

How am I to know what 10% of bone looks like when having never fed this way? It seems like you are just basically supposed to guess at first. I'm sorry, but I'm looking so forward to having a new puppy that I don't want to just guess at it's food. I want to ensure the puppy gets everything it needs so "just guessing" isn't really good enough for me. If you get what I'm saying. Okay, so let's say someone feeds their puppy a chicken quarter. Is there enough bone in that to constitute 10%. It's the ratio that's getting me confused and concerned.

Which brings me to another concern about bone. You should eventually see a pattern here. The bone is what concerns me the absolute most about feeding it to my future puppy.

Some places suggest adding more bone to your dog's diet when initially starting raw. From what I understand it's done in order to have a more solid poop since some dogs will find it difficult on their digestive systems and end up with runny stools. Would this be the same case for a puppy? Wouldn't a puppy need easy to digest food since their stomachs are still new at processing foods. Is bone not the hardest thing from a raw diet to digest? From what I understand that it's normal to have pieces of bone in their poop, so wouldn't that be their body not digesting it completely? Would you then cut back on some of the bone since their body isn't using it all? 

Yet another thing about bone. Are any bones easier to digest than others? Wouldn't it make sense to try and feed more of this bone than other bones since it does digest better. If bones don't digest could they not get stuck in their stomachs or intestines and cause blockages? I just wouldn't want to risk a blockage of any kind. I do want to look out for the absolute best for my puppy. 

So, with all these concerns about the bone, would ground raw be a better option for a puppy? To start with, of course until we all could get more comfortable with the raw diet. I was thinking to slowly add ground raw to the kibble in order to slow wean the puppy. Also, we were also thinking that when it is time to add whole raw into the diet, would it be best to cut it into manageable chunks for a puppy. Would this increase the chances of choking though? Or would it be better to de-bone the chicken and let puppy eat as much of the bone as possible and allow her to feed on the meat from the bone separately. But then, you get a choking possibility of puppy eating the bone in a large piece. What about cutting it all up, bone and all into manageable pieces to digest and not choke?

I'm at a crossroads here. I want to give my future puppy the best but I don't want to risk any harm to it either. This is becoming a bit more stressful than I initially thought, so it explains a lot to why people still freely choose kibble, even if it isn't in the best interest of their dog. I'm hoping the members on here that have experience can help alleviate or understand some of my concerns.


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## Sprocket (Oct 4, 2011)

I vaguely recall seeing a list around here, telling what percentage roughly a bone in piece of meat was. 

I have no idea where I saw it though. 

Maybe someone else can remember.


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## Caty M (Aug 13, 2010)

I worried about the 10% ratio too, worried about over supplementing it in the diet.. until I looked at some of the higher end kibbles that are VERY high in calcium- because the "meals" they use are mostly bone- the unusable portion for humans. 

When I got Tessie and Bishop at 8 weeks each I just fasted them for 12 hours and then fed them a chicken back.. no problems there. Tess especially got a lot of bone in the beginning and she was just fine. Now I just feed around half my meals bone in and half boneless- I'm sure it works out just fine, they have great poop and absolutely no signs of any deficiency or hypervitaminosis.


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## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

You need Liz. I hope she sees this. She has weaned many puppies diretctly to raw food.

The only thing I can for sure answer is that yes, chicken bones are softer. Most people start out with chicken. I have seen several photos here of puppies getting their first meal, and it's a chicken leg.

You don't want to cut up a piece with bone. What you may want to do is take and mallet and pound it, making the bones easier to chew and swallow until you are comfortable they aren't going to hurt them. Eating a piece of meat with a bone in it is always preferable to stripping the meat off the bone and feeding the bone.

the ten percent is an estimate of the amount of a bone a whole prey animal contains. You will not feed exactly 10 percent bone in each meal. A chicken thigh probably does not have ten percent bone, and a chicken back probably has more. over time, you feed as much of the animal as you can (inside and out) and that will get you where you need to be. And one way you tell is by the poops. 

I know you are concerned. It takes a little more thought to do raw than to pour a bag of food in a bowl - but not much!! And it's so much better for your puppy

Oh, and in general it seems puppies take to raw much better than older dogs because their systems havn't been screwed up by grains and vegetables. They are born with little tummies all ready to go onto raw!


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## DaneMama (Jun 27, 2008)

April 2012 said:


> Firstly, what concerns me is that there is so little information for switching a puppy to a raw diet. I read conflicting information as to the amount of food to be fed. I generally get two recommendations for the amount to feed a puppy. Some places suggest 10% of their current weight and others suggest 2-3% of their ideal body weight. Also, some places suggest going cold turkey and eliminating kibble from their diet completely and other places suggest a slow wean.


This part is confusing to most people who switch puppies to raw. You feed 10% of their CURRENT weight per day until that number EQUALS 2-3% of their ideal adult weight. For example: 

Lets say your puppy weighs 10 pounds when you bring her home. You would feed 1 pound per day because 10% of 10 pounds is 1 pound. 

Lets say your puppy's ideal adult weight should be 65 pounds (based off of her parents weights). You would feed her as an adult 1.3-1.95 pounds per day. 

Taking these two sets of numbers into account you would feed her 10% of her body weight per day UNTIL she reached 13-19.5 pounds. 

After that point you would go to feeding 2-3% of her ideal ADULT weight per day which is 1.3-1.95 pounds per day. 

If you continued to feed 10% of her current weight per day, you'd end up feeding her WAY too much in just a short amount of time. 

With all that being said, these are guidelines. Some puppies end up needing 10% of their current weight longer than others, and vice versa. I would recommend looking at some of the really fit and in shape boxers on here and see their body conditions. Study those and get a good picture of what an ideal body condition is for a boxer because THAT will be your best guide of whether your pup needs more food or less. 



> Another thing that throws me off is the ratio of bone to feed. I understand that ideally 10% of their diet should be bone. Most say to check their poop and adjust the bone according to that. But, for someone as new as I am 10% is generalizing and checking poop is new as well. Mind you, we've had dogs before but never investigated their poop let alone try to determine if they need more of something or less of something in their diet. So, basically, going by their poop would be difficult at first because it's been years since we've seen dog poop.


Poop should be formed and solid. If poop is runny or soft you need to feed more bone. If it comes out chalky then you need to feed less bone. It comes down to paying close attention what you fed your puppy the day before/the meal before and using deductive reasoning on whether or not to increase the amount of bone or decrease it based on what was fed previously. Checking poop and raw feeding go hand in hand...if this is the road you pursue it'll become habit. 



> How am I to know what 10% of bone looks like when having never fed this way? It seems like you are just basically supposed to guess at first. I'm sorry, but I'm looking so forward to having a new puppy that I don't want to just guess at it's food. I want to ensure the puppy gets everything it needs so "just guessing" isn't really good enough for me. If you get what I'm saying. Okay, so let's say someone feeds their puppy a chicken quarter. Is there enough bone in that to constitute 10%. It's the ratio that's getting me confused and concerned.


Chicken leg quarters with bone, skin and meat are ~27% bone. I found this on the USDA nutrient database:

Show Foods

You can search for anything on there. You have to select "Full Report" to get the total refuse (bone) content of a raw meaty bone because the first set of information is only for what is deemed "edible" for humans. 

While 10% bone is ideal for maintaining proper long term nutrition, I suggest feeding much more bone than that in the beginning. I've recently gotten a Great Dane puppy and I started her out on chicken quarters for the first week or two. So she was getting roughly 27% bone for several weeks. Now she's getting more meat and less bone, closer to the 10% ratio. Just "guessing" doesn't have to be a part of raw feeding, although most of us do just that. You can weigh everything out exactly and calculate your numbers. There are several people here who do. 



> Some places suggest adding more bone to your dog's diet when initially starting raw. From what I understand it's done in order to have a more solid poop since some dogs will find it difficult on their digestive systems and end up with runny stools. Would this be the same case for a puppy? Wouldn't a puppy need easy to digest food since their stomachs are still new at processing foods. Is bone not the hardest thing from a raw diet to digest? From what I understand that it's normal to have pieces of bone in their poop, so wouldn't that be their body not digesting it completely? Would you then cut back on some of the bone since their body isn't using it all?


Usually puppies switch over like champs. I would however still start with a higher bone content diet like stated above to prevent diarrhea. 

Bones do take time for dogs to get used to digesting. Just because bone pieces are seen in stools doesn't mean their bodies aren't digesting them at all...its just those pieces. They definitely use bone up that doesn't show up as whole pieces in stool. It just takes time, sometimes that just a few days and for others it takes a few weeks. Bone isn't fed just for bulking up stools. It provides essential minerals for nutrition. You can't just omit them from the diet because you see bone pieces and assume they're not digesting any of it. 



> Yet another thing about bone. Are any bones easier to digest than others? Wouldn't it make sense to try and feed more of this bone than other bones since it does digest better. If bones don't digest could they not get stuck in their stomachs or intestines and cause blockages? I just wouldn't want to risk a blockage of any kind. I do want to look out for the absolute best for my puppy.


Chicken bones are easier for dogs to digest than most others because they're softer and more pliable. This is why we suggest feeding bone in chicken for the first few weeks. Once the dog's system is used to "easy" bones like chicken you move on to turkey, then to pork, fish, etc. 

The only bones that I've known to cause blockages are cooked bones and oddly shaped bones like T-bones. Which is why we recommend staying away from those at all costs. 



> So, with all these concerns about the bone, would ground raw be a better option for a puppy? To start with, of course until we all could get more comfortable with the raw diet. I was thinking to slowly add ground raw to the kibble in order to slow wean the puppy. Also, we were also thinking that when it is time to add whole raw into the diet, would it be best to cut it into manageable chunks for a puppy. Would this increase the chances of choking though? Or would it be better to de-bone the chicken and let puppy eat as much of the bone as possible and allow her to feed on the meat from the bone separately. But then, you get a choking possibility of puppy eating the bone in a large piece. What about cutting it all up, bone and all into manageable pieces to digest and not choke?


If feeding a ground raw diet is what will make you feel comfortable in the beginning you can always do that, but its not necessary. Most of us here who've raised puppies on raw start off with whole raw meaty bones. I do however suggest smashing raw meaty bones with a hammer or kitchen mallet first before feeding to help break up the bones for the first week or so. You smash the whole thing, so it becomes a gloppy mess of meat, bone and skin. You don't want to EVER cut the bones up because that is what causes choking hazards. You want your puppy to chomp up the bones a bit before swallowing. You also NEVER want to de-bone RMBs and feed the meat and bone separately. They should be fed whole and nothing but. 

I don't recommend mixing raw and kibble. Some dogs handle it fine, and others get very sick doing so. It is also very taxing on the body to switch from digesting whole raw foods, to extruded processed foods. So even the dogs who handle it fine, their bodies are working harder than if they were fed one or the other. 



> I'm at a crossroads here. I want to give my future puppy the best but I don't want to risk any harm to it either. This is becoming a bit more stressful than I initially thought, so it explains a lot to why people still freely choose kibble, even if it isn't in the best interest of their dog. I'm hoping the members on here that have experience can help alleviate or understand some of my concerns.


That is why you're here, asking questions. Its the best way to learn. You've got several months to figure it all out and we are all more than happy to help! Keep the questions coming :thumb:


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## Kat (Jul 12, 2011)

Im only 7 months into raw myself. I was so scared in the beginng about switching my pug to raw because there are so many people out there who say how dangerous it is and how you have to be careful with bacteria and bones. Before raw, I was going to the vet twice a month with my dog because of stomach issues and allergies. Since raw, I have not been to the vet even once! 

The bone thing is confusing in the beginning. I feed 4 bone in meals a week, usually chicken drumsticks, sometimes wings or pork ribs. I think I am a bit over the 10% mark, but without that 4th bone-in meal, her poops would be too squishy. I feed bone on sunday, monday, wednesday, and friday for dinner. 

I didnt even have to crush the bones for her in the beginning, she would chew the chicken drumstick until it was pretty much a crushed mess then she would rip it and eat it. 

Im so happy you are looking into feeding your new pup raw, its really the best thing you can do for your dog. Good luck!


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## Liz (Sep 27, 2010)

*Hi and welcome to the forum. Please, please rest easy to changing a pup to raw. I have raised two litters straight from mom to raw and will be raising two more that way this summer. 12 pups so far total. Collies and shelties. *


Firstly, what concerns me is that there is so little information for switching a puppy to a raw diet. I read conflicting information as to the amount of food to be fed. I generally get two recommendations for the amount to feed a puppy. Some places suggest 10% of their current weight and others suggest 2-3% of their ideal body weight. Also, some places suggest going cold turkey and eliminating kibble from their diet completely and other places suggest a slow wean. 

I personally feed 2 percent of their projected adult weight - that worked well for my collies and my shelties. My puppies went from nursing to raw, no cereal, no mush. I would feed my new pup their dinner and start raw the next morning. Pups do great on transition, though boxers are sensitive, tummy wise, overall.


Another thing that throws me off is the ratio of bone to feed. I understand that ideally 10% of their diet should be bone. Most say to check their poop and adjust the bone according to that. But, for someone as new as I am 10% is generalizing and checking poop is new as well. Mind you, we've had dogs before but never investigated their poop let alone try to determine if they need more of something or less of something in their diet. So, basically, going by their poop would be difficult at first because it's been years since we've seen dog poop. 

That one is easy. You want to start with bony cuts. Chicken backs are a favorite then moving on to chicken quarters. A meaty chicken back is probably around 35% bone. Our dogs need more than 10% bone to stay solid but as they began to adjust to raw feeding I would feed a chicken back and add some plain meat to balance that percentage down a bit. Now whenever they get backs, turkey necks or anything bony they also get their liver portions or rich meats like hearts. 

How am I to know what 10% of bone looks like when having never fed this way? It seems like you are just basically supposed to guess at first. I'm sorry, but I'm looking so forward to having a new puppy that I don't want to just guess at it's food. I want to ensure the puppy gets everything it needs so "just guessing" isn't really good enough for me. If you get what I'm saying. Okay, so let's say someone feeds their puppy a chicken quarter. Is there enough bone in that to constitute 10%. It's the ratio that's getting me confused and concerned.

Their is a USDA nutritional values site where you can enter the cut of meat and it will give you the average proportion of bone to meat. You do get really good at eyeing a cut and knowing pretty close what the percentage is. This is a very easy diet and the 80-10-10 rule is just that a rule/guideline. Your dog may do great on just that mine tend to need more like 15 - 20 % bone. My collie litter is 14 months old now. They are solid in bone, well muscled, beautifully coated, happy dogs. They have been maturing evenly without the funky growth spurts of my previous kibble fed litters. Their bloodwork was perfect.

Which brings me to another concern about bone. You should eventually see a pattern here. The bone is what concerns me the absolute most about feeding it to my future puppy.

Watching how your pup is digesting bone will tell you how much your individual pup needs which is the beauty of raw. It can be perfect for your particular dog. Like I said, my guys need more bone, some dogs need very little bone. If your dog had very dry stools that crumble immediately it tells me he is getting a bit much bone wise and isn't processing it all because it is more than he needs - I would add a bit more meat to his next meal until you had regular stools. Not soft - not dust.LOL If he was a bit loose then I would add a bit more bone . Like I said before - this guideline has given me 12 pups with perfect bloodwork, lovely growth, excellent bone and musculature.

Some places suggest adding more bone to your dog's diet when initially starting raw. From what I understand it's done in order to have a more solid poop since some dogs will find it difficult on their digestive systems and end up with runny stools. Would this be the same case for a puppy? Wouldn't a puppy need easy to digest food since their stomachs are still new at processing foods. Is bone not the hardest thing from a raw diet to digest? From what I understand that it's normal to have pieces of bone in their poop, so wouldn't that be their body not digesting it completely? Would you then cut back on some of the bone since their body isn't using it all? 

It does take a bit for them to transition but puppies tend to transition much more easily than adults. Bone is harder to digest but remember they are built to do so - kibble is far harder to digest as it is not natural for them to do so. My puppies start eating meat at 3 1/2 weeks old while still nursing. They have done fantastic.


Yet another thing about bone. Are any bones easier to digest than others? Wouldn't it make sense to try and feed more of this bone than other bones since it does digest better. If bones don't digest could they not get stuck in their stomachs or intestines and cause blockages? I just wouldn't want to risk a blockage of any kind. I do want to look out for the absolute best for my puppy.

Chicken, cornish game hen, young rabbit, chicken, turkey and duck necks are the easiest to digest. Goat, sheep would probably be next. They won't eat many beef bones other than possibly ribs or neck which are not super dense. You want to avoid weight bearing bones of large animals like cows. They will break teeth. Smaller animals like goat and sheep and such are not a problem. We have had no blockages and my dogs get every kind of bone I can find - I like to offer variety. 


So, with all these concerns about the bone, would ground raw be a better option for a puppy? To start with, of course until we all could get more comfortable with the raw diet. I was thinking to slowly add ground raw to the kibble in order to slow wean the puppy. Also, we were also thinking that when it is time to add whole raw into the diet, would it be best to cut it into manageable chunks for a puppy. Would this increase the chances of choking though? Or would it be better to de-bone the chicken and let puppy eat as much of the bone as possible and allow her to feed on the meat from the bone separately. But then, you get a choking possibility of puppy eating the bone in a large piece. What about cutting it all up, bone and all into manageable pieces to digest and not choke?

NO, No, no, please trust in this. Raw to kibble is a bad idea. They digest at different rates. Also ground has more surfaces to hold bacteria. This is not a good plan. My puppies by 6 weeks are eating whole raw meat. That seem to be when their teeth are long enough to chew and rip meat and bone. My collies are very similar in size to what your pup will be and your pup will be at least 8 weeks old - right? You want to offer as large a piece as you can so they chew it instead of trying to swallow it whole. Dogs do not chew like we do a few chomps is usually enough to get it down their throat and they area happy with that. Your pup will be so much more satisfied going through his own bone. This helps with teething and leaves you with a very happy and satisfied puppy. Trust me please - I have seen the difference with these two litters compared to my other 20 years of breeding.


I'm at a crossroads here. I want to give my future puppy the best but I don't want to risk any harm to it either. This is becoming a bit more stressful than I initially thought, so it explains a lot to why people still freely choose kibble, even if it isn't in the best interest of their dog. I'm hoping the members on here that have experience can help alleviate or understand some of my concerns.

No puppy of mine will ever be raised on kibble again. There is so much in it that is detrimental to my dogs. I will not even breed one of my dogs to a kibble fed dog. There is far more harm to be had from kibble than raw feeding. Think if the food you choose is up for a recall as many have been - it is usually too late by then to keep your dog safe. I know what my dogs are eating. where it comes from, and I can balance exactly what they need bone to meat wise. We people want 100% guarantee - that's not possible. I will tell you that you have a higher risk of your pup chocking on a toy, tennis ball, stick, rock, clothing, rope, etc than one appropriate bones. I can also guarantee you a higher incidence of allergic and stomach issues on kibble, I can tell you, that you will drive your self crazy trying to get the best kibble that is just like raw - it doesn't exist. You do your best, research, decide on what you feel is best and be happy with that. I am glad to be of any help possible but giving you info is all I can do to help. Guarantees do not exist. I know my dogs are completely different on raw and we will never go back. Plan things out and get comfortable with your plan. 

If a new pup were coming to my house - he would eat chicken backs for at least the first five days. If stools are solid to dry I would then alternate between chicken quarters and chicken backs. If that goes well for a few days I would then continue to add more meat. After that I would start to slowly add a variety of proteins. Turkey, duck, rabbit, pork, beef, fish, venison, elk, bison, etc.
I hope this helps and please feel free to ask questions. :smile:


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

with nothing further to add, as i have never transitioned a puppy.....congrats on getting a puppy.

and there are plenty of people here who will hold your hand and help you get through the transition part.....

the one thing i can offer is this.

if you are really stressed out, try not to show it during meal times...drink a martini, read a book, something to get your mind off what you're doing, other than watching puppy eat....

i always stay with my dogs when they eat....just as a safety precaution and especially in the beginning.....as they learn how to eat raw....

they will get strong teeth, jaws, mouths, neck muscles....as they continue to eat more and more variety of proteins...

and you will learn too.....and it's kind of a zen thing now for us....


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## liquid (Dec 28, 2011)

DaneMama and Liz have answered your questions beautifully. :thumb:
Welcome to DFC and welcome to the world of raw feeding!
Remember that youre always, *always* welcome to come here and ask questions as you go through your transition. We're all here to help!

At first, raw can be stressful because it's something new and different. Whenever you feel stressed out, feel free to come here and vent about whatever's bothering you. We'll help address whatever fears or concerns you may have, and help you along the way. 

Once you get started with raw, it really does become easier. Raw feeding is so simple, once you get into it it'll actually become quite enjoyable.

Good luck, and stay in touch! :smile:


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## Huginn (Nov 21, 2011)

You have gotten some perfect answers already, all I have to add is a little bit of experience. 
Huginn, was 9.5 weeks when I got him and about 12lbs. He handled bones beautifully, they even helped with keep his stool solid while he had giardia. You will be surprised what your puppy can handle, and it will always be more than you expect out of them. 
Out of all of the puppies in our training class that are Huginn's age, he is the only one that doesnt have clumpy baby fuzz, he has a soft shiny coat already, is growing evenly and doesn't have rank breath. Huginn has been on raw for 8 weeks and since then the hot spots he came with have cleared up, his ears are not nasty and he doesnt scratch at all, except at his collar still lol. 
I didn't slowly switch him over, he came off of the plane and about five hours later he got a chicken back with no skin or fat and he loved it. I will never go back, I just remind myself to breathe when it gets rough.


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## creek817 (Feb 18, 2012)

This is the link I found on here before about bone percentages - I've been using it almost daily, because I was definitely feeding way too much bone to start with!!


List of bone percentages for bony meat - Raw Food Diet Forum

They're not all in complete agreement, but I usually average it out to get a decent idea of what is close to 10%

Good luck, I'm having so much fun with feeding raw!! And my formerly nod excited about food dog now DEVOURS his food!


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## Dude and Bucks Mamma (May 14, 2011)

I understand your concerns. The first time I fed raw was June 1, 2011. I had Dude, my 7 year old smooth collie and I had just brought home my 8 week old bluetick coonhound puppy, Buck. I was switching a new puppy and an older dog at the same time!



April 2012 said:


> Firstly, what concerns me is that there is so little information for switching a puppy to a raw diet. I read conflicting information as to the amount of food to be fed. I generally get two recommendations for the amount to feed a puppy. Some places suggest 10% of their current weight and others suggest 2-3% of their ideal body weight. Also, some places suggest going cold turkey and eliminating kibble from their diet completely and other places suggest a slow wean.


My bluetick pup was raised on raw. Many of us here have raised a pup on raw. I actually didn't learn about the 10% body weight until after he was past that point. We based his 2-3% off of the 80 lbs he should be as a filled out adult and we fed him 2 lbs a day which has recently been bumped up to 2 1/2 because he is so active and he burns so much energy. He has grown up fine and is exactly what an 11 month old bluetick coonhound should be. 

We fasted Buck for 12 hours before switching him to give his system time to clear out all of the kibble. A full day is not recommended for puppies. I have heard that the mix of kibble can cause a form of indigestion and can just cause more problems than what it's worth. The majority of dogs here, I believe, have been switched cold turkey.



April 2012 said:


> Another thing that throws me off is the ratio of bone to feed. I understand that ideally 10% of their diet should be bone. Most say to check their poop and adjust the bone according to that. But, for someone as new as I am 10% is generalizing and checking poop is new as well. Mind you, we've had dogs before but never investigated their poop let alone try to determine if they need more of something or less of something in their diet. So, basically, going by their poop would be difficult at first because it's been years since we've seen dog poop.
> 
> How am I to know what 10% of bone looks like when having never fed this way? It seems like you are just basically supposed to guess at first. I'm sorry, but I'm looking so forward to having a new puppy that I don't want to just guess at it's food. I want to ensure the puppy gets everything it needs so "just guessing" isn't really good enough for me. If you get what I'm saying. Okay, so let's say someone feeds their puppy a chicken quarter. Is there enough bone in that to constitute 10%. It's the ratio that's getting me confused and concerned.
> 
> ...


The 10% is more of a guideline than an actual rule (Haha).

Buck, at this point, can go several days on something as rich as beef heart with no bones at all before his poop gets soft. Dude, on the other hand, has to have about 30% bone every day or he gets the runs. I mostly base it off of how their poop looks. All you really have to do is watch them when you let them out. If they have runny or soft serve poop you need more bone. If they are straining and/or it comes out white and sometimes powdery then you need less bone. You don't actually have to dig around in it or anything. It isn't difficult at all. It mostly consistency of the poop, not what's in it. 

Now, someone correct me if I am wrong, but a nice, meaty chicken quarter (leg and thigh together) is about 30% bone. I base my bone off of that amount. The bone shards differ from dog to dog and I believe age has something to do with it. My collie, Dude, was on kibble for 7 years. Buck was on kibble for just a few weeks at the breeders. Buck's bone shards disappeared MUCH sooner than Dude's who had been eating processed foods for so long. There is no need to cut back on the bone. It's not that their body isn't using it all. It's that their body is still working out how to properly break it down.

What you need to understand is that raw foods are much easier to digest than processed kibble. You just have to give their bodies some time to make the switch. 



April 2012 said:


> Yet another thing about bone. Are any bones easier to digest than others? Wouldn't it make sense to try and feed more of this bone than other bones since it does digest better. If bones don't digest could they not get stuck in their stomachs or intestines and cause blockages? I just wouldn't want to risk a blockage of any kind. I do want to look out for the absolute best for my puppy.


For a dog new to raw, you don't really need to worry about what kinds of bones to feed. It's easy. Chicken bones! Chicken is, by far, the best protein to start with because the bones are soft and the meat is... mild? It's easier on their systems than something rich like beef. I suggest checking out preymodelraw.com and using the Getting Started guide. Its what I used for my boys and it is by far the most clear. A lot of us here use it for new dogs. There are some bones to stay away from and you do need to supervise your dogs when they eat (as even kibble feeders should since kibble does not eliminate the risk of choking) but things like poultry bones, lamb, pork, etc are not something to worry about. You want to stay away from the weight bearing bones of large ungulates like elk, moose, cattle, bison, etc. They are too dense and can crack teeth. I have a gulper ( a dog who tends to pretty much inhale his food) and even I don't worry about blockages too much.



April 2012 said:


> So, with all these concerns about the bone, would ground raw be a better option for a puppy? To start with, of course until we all could get more comfortable with the raw diet. I was thinking to slowly add ground raw to the kibble in order to slow wean the puppy. Also, we were also thinking that when it is time to add whole raw into the diet, would it be best to cut it into manageable chunks for a puppy. Would this increase the chances of choking though? Or would it be better to de-bone the chicken and let puppy eat as much of the bone as possible and allow her to feed on the meat from the bone separately. But then, you get a choking possibility of puppy eating the bone in a large piece. What about cutting it all up, bone and all into manageable pieces to digest and not choke?


No. Ground raw is almost never the better option. Ground raw has more surface area and allows for more bacteria growth. Natalie can expand on that one if she hasn't already. Ground also provides no tooth benefits. Yes, a puppy is going to lose his puppy teeth but you want them to learn how to chew on bones now because it will make it easier for him later. I know that my Dude isn't nearly as efficient with bones as Buck is. I really do contribute to him being able to learn how to handle big bones at an early age. Dude never can seem to get all of the meat off. Buck strips them clean. Check out this thread:

http://dogfoodchat.com/forum/raw-feeding/10614-dudes-teeth.html

This is what Dude's teeth looked like after 7 years on kibble (and what I would imagine a dog's teeth would look like with ground raw) and what they looked like just a few months after starting raw. That was all bones. Ground raw would never have removed that plaque. Bad teeth can contribute to many health issues in a dog. It is VERY important that they be able to keep their teeth clean. 

No. You want to feed as big of pieces as possible. At 8 weeks old a boxer puppy is more than capable of eating a chicken quarter than has not been deboned or broken into chunks. I'll admit, I didn't think Buck would be able to do it but he powered through his chicken quarter like it was nothing. They look like they struggle a bit but it just them figuring out how this works. They are baby carnivores. They do not need to be catered to. Again, it is best to feed one big piece and it is also best to switch cold turkey.


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## Chocx2 (Nov 16, 2009)

I raised my first pup on raw, I had changed my female several years ago for health reasons. And then I got a pup, was a little worried, but all went well, I have a lab and during her growing time she was being trained and very active, she had no problems and is doing awesome, she will turn two in May. She has grown slower than my other dogs?, but is filling out nicely, she looks great!


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## kathylcsw (Jul 31, 2011)

I have a 4 month old Toy Fox Terrier who I started on raw the day we brought him home at 8 weeks old. He has done so well on this diet! The transition has been so smooth. He is eating chicken, turkey, pork, fish, beef, venison, liver, and organs and has never had serious diarrhea issues. I say go for it with your puppy!


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## Scarlett_O' (May 19, 2011)

Everyone else has given you great advice. 

And I'll add that I helped my Mum start feeding her Jazzmyn(French Bulldog) raw when she got her at 8 weeks old and under 5lbs. I have also moved my Keeva over as of 9.5 weeks old(when she came to me with her brother Huginn going to Tiffany) and my Rhett at 15 weeks along with 3 adults(1.5, 3 and 4) in my home along with 2 cats and one adult, one senior and one cat in my Mum's household!:thumb:

Everyone is doing AMAZING, the puppies have grown evenly, with strong growth times but none of those weird spurts and Jazzy is the most healthy looking Frenchie I have ever seen!!


Good luck, I look forward to seeing more of your post, "meeting" your baby and watching the growth on raw!!:biggrin:


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## bully4life (Aug 9, 2010)

Maybe i can add my 2 cents, Ive been feeding raw for 11 years, the worst thing you can do is over think what your doing. I used to drive myself nuts with ratios and percentages and the right ounce of this and the just a dash of that. Then i realized the ratios are all already worked out for me and nature has done that. If your feeding a leg quarter. The bone /meat ratio is right there in front of you, same if your feeding a whole chicken. or a whole rabbit, or a chicken leg or a thigh. Whatever you choose to feed, whatever body part you pick, the meat that is wrapped around the bone IS the right percentage . All of my dogs have transitioned to raw between 9-10 weeks of age. Ill break the bones myself until they learn to chew, which is usually after the 2nd or 3rd day, wings at first and transitioning to larger pieces. I always stick with one protein for the 1st 4-5 months and then add others as i see fit. Now i have large breed dogs so my feeding consist of a leg quarter or 2 in the morning and then around early dinner,a slice of liver appx as big as my palm (3x4), add a glug of fish oil,and crush a vitamin and maybe a teaspoon of ACV and thats it. My vets has always been impressed how healthy and solid my dogs look. Hope this helps. remember in nature there are no measurements and ratio...as long as we feed balanced, nature works it out, by hanging on to the nutrients you need and eliminating the nutrients we have to much of. Good luck, this isn't that hard.


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## taem (Oct 29, 2011)

I'm pretty much in the same boat as you. My puppy is arriving in just a few days and the one thing that scares me to death is that first raw feeding.

You're right, for someone new to all this, it's hard to nail down the day-to-day specifics. For example, I read both of Lonsdale's books, and they convinced me I want to do raw, but they gave me next to nothing on how to actually go about it. (Some of the advice is... well... one of the things he says is pick up road kill and serve it as dinner. Uh huh...) If it weren't for places like this forum, where you can ask experts specific questions, I might not be doing this at all.

I think you're well on your way with this post though. What I did was, after doing research, I posted a summary of my plan of action here for comments, and the replies I got from pros like DaneMama and Liz and Xelil etc really gave me the confidence I needed. I'm still scared, but I don't feel lost anymore. Here is my post for example: http://dogfoodchat.com/forum/raw-fe...pup-rmb-could-folks-look-over.html#post164652 That only covers the first two weeks. After that I will be putting up another post on the next stage, and so forth. I also invested in a new camera and made a youtube account, for real nitty gritty questions like "how firm is this poop?" I could upload a vid of me rolling the poop between my fingers so the pros can comment on that. Hell I'll UPS the poop to folks here if they'll let me!


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## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

Honestly, I don't know how to keep from being scared when you hand over that first piece of bony meat. Things are just so ingrained in our heads about bones, and raw in general. 

I vividly remember my first raw meal with the dogs. I was certain I had killed them both, especially Snorkels who swallowed her chicken neck whole. I waited 24 hours for bones to start poking out their sides.

But once you get past that, it's cake - really. It becomes so much fun to feed them you won't be able to ever imagine doing anything else.


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## DaneMama (Jun 27, 2008)

I was scared too in the beginning. I really was worried about my dogs eating raw bones, getting sick, getting blocked, etc. 

BUT I'd NEVER go back to kibble now. If I could go back in time to the first raw meal I handed my dogs I would slap myself across the face and tell me to chill out. 

Being nervous is a part of the transition. I think that it will further power your drive to continue because you're nervous at first...then see how AMAZING raw feeding is....it just makes the whole mindset so much more positive in the end.


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

i remember drinking the first week and i normally don't drink much. 

but it was fascinating to watch them eat...no, they weren't puppies, but i would imagine a puppy would be easier, rather than an elderly dog..or my pug who would eat wood if i sprinkled seasoning on it.

i think the younger the dog, the fewer problems during the transition.....i've read that and heard that...


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## Liz (Sep 27, 2010)

I forgot but I have pics of 6 week old collie pups eating one of their first whole meals - chicken quarters. If you like you can see them on my profile. No problems and everyone is doing great.


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## April 2012 (Feb 8, 2012)

I just popped in quick to post a thank you. I don't have much time to comment more as I'm just getting ready to go to work so I will do tomorrow. I just wanted to say thanks to all who have responded. You have definitely given me (us) more to think about.


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## schtuffy (May 17, 2010)

I don't have anything to add, you've gotten great advice. It's great that you want to feed raw...don't be overwhelmed and we'll be here to help anytime!


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