# Probably off-topic - anti-raw vet and what to do?



## brandydan (Jul 21, 2015)

Hi Everyone - if this is considered not remotely related to dogfood, and it might be considerd a rant, but mods, please let me know, although....

Short back history, we switched to raw for our dogs last year, including our large breed puppy. My vet pretty much had a meltdown and gave me the impression that if I fed anyone in my household raw, I would end up killing the pet (because, you know, salmonellahwell. Thing is, she's a great vet otherwise, my pets love her, and she works with me with regards to treatments (last year we lost three separate already-elderly pets to cancer) so I stay with her. But, I lied. When I would bring my puppy in for his shots, she would go on about his great condition, his coat, his weight. When I would bring in my older dogs, again, praise about their weight loss (they had been obese), their coats, etc. I told her I had all of them on decent kibble just to keep the peace.

Fast-forward to last week. I brought in one of our cats who has a slight URI. No biggie; we know the routine...meds, quarantine from the others, more meds...yet the vet tech was going on and on and on about exactly what I was feeding the cats. My feline horde are all fed raw, although husband, who thinks that they are STARVING, still sets out kibble for them. Since he tends to be the one that buys the kibble, I have no idea what brand he's feeding, though to his credit, he buys the no-grain-no-gluten-senior-cat-food varieties. So I had to wing it since I had no idea what COLOR the cat food bag was. Really. It was surreal.

But it struck me odd that how much the tech needed to know the EXACT food my cat-with-the-flu was eating. I know what food allergies look like in a cat (hence the move from kibble to raw). And I really had no issue with kibble prior to the raw except for one of my cats that WAS allergic to anything and everything in kibble (and had the explosive intestinal issues as proof). 

My question, I guess, is this...I hate lying to my vet. I know that a good vet has to pretty much make an amazing guess as to what could be wrong with an animal since the pet can't speak, and had to rely on medical test results as well as experience to determine how to treat a pet. But I hesitate to mention what I feed simply because I wonder if anything that could be wrong could be instantly blamed on what I place in the bowl. And I worry that I could potentially risk my dogs' health IN CASE what I feed them could cause a medical issue.

Any thoughts?


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## naturalfeddogs (Jan 6, 2011)

Most vets are against raw, simply because they have no idea about pet nutrition. They get very little in they way of training in school for that. What they do get, is funded solely by large kibble companies. Primarliy Purina and Hills. The two worst. Whatever those companies say, is what gets briefly taught. We don't vet often, but the last time we did at a new vet, they said all the same stuff about our dogs teeth, coat and just overall health in general. Then the question of what are we feeding. I told them raw diet, of different proteins/edible bones/organs. All of a sudden, it became "well, lets change that and go with a quality kibble. Raw is dangerous, and not good for dogs". My response was, "You just said how great she looks overall, and so healthy. So, what about that needs to change?" All he could say is how it's just "safer", and they have really good kibbles in the office we could get. (keep in mind I don't often hold back on this subject)! I asked how was processed man made in a bag going to be better than something natural to the species? And I let him know there is still bacteria like salmanella in kibble as well. He couldn't answer that, and just changed the subject. 

I have also been known to tell them that "this is my dog, and I will feed him the way I feel is best". Vets just don't have the knowledge on the subject, and it's an area I absolutely will not listen to them on. See if you can find a holistic vet you can talk to, and you will probably get a different response. They are much more open to raw, limited/no vaccines etc....


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## brandydan (Jul 21, 2015)

I fully understand the lack of nutritional training vets get. My vet has pretty much set aside half her office for Prescription, Science Diet and Royal Canin, although I think she sells what most of the clients demands, since she's never pushed any of those foods for my pets. Thing is, I used to use the last one listed, and my pets were doing okay (except for the aforementioned poo-cat). 

Is raw potentially bad? Sure, there's no such thing as a perfectly safe food. I lost three cats all within a year of THAT pet food outbreak of 2007ish...one cat to kidney cancer, another to liver, a third to bladder. So I also know that kibble could be bad. 

As for finding another vet...I live in the Rio Grande Valley area of Tx, so most of the vets here seem to be grads of TX A&M...and therefore unlikely to look at anything raw. Holistic vets don't seem to exist south of Austin (which is 5+ hours away).


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## naturalfeddogs (Jan 6, 2011)

Raw is species appropriate, so its the way dogs and cats both are meant to eat. Raw in itself is not bad at all, but you do have to be careful with some stuff. Such as weight bearing bones from large animals like cows, wild caught salmon and salmon related fish from the Pacific Northwest, and wild boar. 

You also want to be sure to feed large enough cuts of whatever you feed that they have to chew not swallow whole. 

Just need to be careful what you feed sometimes, but raw, if you are talking about making them sick or anything isn't a worry.

This is a link to a site with a getting started guide and raw feeding forums Prey Model Raw - PMR dog food


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## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

My vet is not holistic. I switched to him recently, and I like him. Vets used to intimidate me a lot. Then I went through a period where I would try to convince them. THEN, the AVMA decided that they, nor any of their members, should support raw feeding and that made things worse. So there's no trying to convince anyone. They all know a lot of people are feeding raw now.

The vet techs, in my experience, are often MUCH worse than the vets themselves. Little holier-than-thou tyrants. I tell the vet tech I don't discuss my dog's diet with anyone but the vet. If they continue, I repeat myself in a much more forceful manner. So far that's shut them up. 

So I went to my new vet. The techs are wonderful, they never say a word to me. I always tell the vet I feed raw. I used to worry because I think sometimes they may blame something on raw without looking for the real cause but when I make it very clear I won't accept that diagnosis we don't have that issue. My new vet asked me how I knew my dogs were getting the right nutrition. He said they need vegetables and grains to balance their diets. I asked him if he knew what the daily requirement for carbs is for a dog. Most vets don't know, or won't admit, that it's zero. Now think about that for a minute. A dog requires no carbs in their diet. And vets don't know it. 

So, my new vet couldn't tell me. And I said to him I will agree not to diagnose my own dogs if you'll agree not to tell me how to feed them. And he laughed and said he thought that was a great idea, and it's not been mentioned again. 

so my rules with a vet are:
Go prepared. If you're not prepared, they will bully and belittle you into feeling like a total incompetent. I've been there. Don't ever let them confuse you with their kibble mantra probably memorized from a Science Diet nutrition book.

Don't go in there ready to fight, with an attitude. You want to be partners with a vet, not an ignoramus nor a know-it-all

Don't get into a facebook-like discussion with them over raw vs. kibble. The results are the same as they are on social media. Nobody wins, and nobody changes their mind. 

Tell them it's not up for discussion. Some vets will not take care of dogs that are fed raw, or they do crazy things like isolate them and treat them like they're Typhoid Mary. You need another vet if that happens. 

But let them know you are going to feed raw, you're not going to put up with lectures, you're willing to work with them in any way that's necessary but kibble is not an option and you don't want to be harrassed about it.

I've gone through a lot of vets. I've left them for one reason or another. One vet I walked out on in the middle of our first visit. But the best vets are the ones that, even though they may not love raw feeding, DO love an an owner who is involved, proactive, who comes prepared, who researches, and who never, ever accepts drugs or any kind of treatment without a full explanation of the whys and the options. I work holistically with my non-holistic vet and I tell him what I'm doing and why. If my method fails I might try his. I keep him in the loop. He is currently trying on one of his dogs something that helped my arthritic dog in a huge way. 

I am able to do that because of what I learned here, and the people I met here, and the help they have given me by teaching me about food, and by teaching me how to stand up for myself.


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## naturalfeddogs (Jan 6, 2011)

So so true. The last dealing we had the vet, the vets themselves never said a word at all. It was the techs who thought they were the s**t. Attitudes were terrible about it. After I dropped Reba off for her spay, Wayne picked her up the next day. They started in on him about it. Briefly. And only briefly. He shut them up quick about it. They didn't know how to argue back with him and his logic, due to their lack of knowledge. They weren't the s**t they thought they were to begin with.


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## Celt (Dec 27, 2010)

Just a sidenote, a few years ago, a bunch of people "caught" salmonella from kibble. Never heard of any dogs getting sick though. It's easy for a vet to "discount" an owner's "knowledge" (sometimes with good reasons), but most will "give in" once you show them you know what you're talking about. Knowledge is power, but you have to be secure in your knowledge to "make" someone believe in that strength


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## MollyWoppy (Mar 19, 2010)

I told my vet some 8 years ago that I was feeding raw and got told I would 'kill' my dog so I lied for a few years before plucking up the guts and coming clean, and once again I walked out of their office clutching a sample bag of SD teeth cleaning kibble. Forward nearly 9 years and and she's still going strong, same vet, never says anything or asks what I feed. And I agree with Xellil, its the vet techs who continue to give me grief. They told me the other day when my older girl went in for her yearly that 'yes, some people do feed raw, but it's always the sports dog people'. Now we are foraging the way on vaccinations, there are reasons why I'm not giving them to my dogs any longer and the way the vet techs try to force you, telling me to 'go home' and think about it when I requested titers instead. Vet didn't say a word. So yeah, you do what you think is right for you and your dog. Thinking changes over the years and it's ok if you are the one to push the boundaries. I'm a meek and mild person, I hate arguing, but I never argued, I just did what I knew was right for my pets, thats all.


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## naturalfeddogs (Jan 6, 2011)

Thats it. Feed your dog the way you feel is best.


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## Dude and Bucks Mamma (May 14, 2011)

The last time one of our dogs went in for his rabies vaccine, my husband made the mistake of not requesting OUR vet. We take our dogs to the on base vet at our old base across the Sound because she is an AWESOME vet who supports and feeds her own dogs raw. We lucked out with her as our first vet so, fortunately, I have never had that battle. 

Anyway, long story short, my husband made the appointment for the hound and forgot to request our vet and had to deal with a different one who apparently didn't even notice Buck's raging ear infection. Granted, we knew about it and were already treating it, but the guy didn't even notice. Then he tried to give DH "The Lecture" about raw. It was my birthday so I said, "No, YOU take your dog to the vet. I'm staying home, sleeping in, and having my birthday" but I REALLY wish I'd gone too.


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## Dr Dolittle (Aug 2, 2013)

AS someone representing the pet food industry, I can agree with some if not lots of what has been said. vets, especially younger ones, know little about nutrition, and even worse, don't know pet food myths and marketing, which dominates everything now. IT will take a long time I suspect for raw to be accepted, but it will happen. the main reason is the concern of severe imbalances or deficiencies in the diet. AT least that's how the vet thinks, and it is a valid concern, along with salmonella. BUt they really don't have good info on raw so best to avoid it. ANd besides, 99% of their clients feed kibble so it is not high on their list to keep up with. Whoever said Purina and Hills are the worst, well, that's a huh, uninformed statement but yes, their philosophy would not jive with raw. VEts don't consider natural particularly great. vaccines, parasite control, dentistry, etc is pretty unnatural and helps pets a lot! THere are no geriatric dogs in nature so geriatric nutrition and therapeutic nutrition are totally unnatural and save thousands of lives so you really can't argue against them. SO vets come from a different perspective. but I will agree most don't know anything and sadly, as they are getting overworked and underpaid don't expect them to get much more knowledgeable! I would say feed raw if you want but blood work every year once they are over 7 will show how well the diet is working. if kidneys start showing signs of shutting down, time to get unnatural!


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