# Treat training, bah humbug



## Celt

I've just discovered another benefit of treat training (emphasis on heavy sarcasm). Scotty, the only dog I've ever obediance trained using treats, gave me a wonderful (sarcasm again) example of the "joy" of treat training at the dog park. A gentleman had brought a hamburger patty to use as treats for his dog (and shared out to the others). Of course, my dogs being typical hounds went to partake of the yummies. Well, I called my dogs to me. 2 of them come running, Scotty looks over at me, wags his tail and goes back to mooching. Normally, the pups don't get more than 20-25 ft away from me. I got about a 1/2 acre away before he finally comes tearing up to me. We continue walking around the park, stop at "our" bench to get water, go to offer Scotty some and he's gone, back to mooching off burger man. I reach into the bag, where I keep treats, then call Scotty. Again he turns looks at me, sees where my hand is and comes tearing back to me and proceeds to do his "give me a treat dance". He figures that he deserves to get "paid" for any behavior that he doesn't instigate on his own. It has been a major hassle trying to retrain him and is a work in progress that I'm not sure will ever be completed. There have been improvement but you can still see a significant difference in his behavior when treats are "available" (sigh). I've definitely learned my lesson on treat training.


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## 1605

I don't think this is a "treat training" issue as much as it is an obedience issue. Your dogs simply haven't been trained to the point where they will properly respond to your commands.

It's like what happens with hunting breeds & birds. Their instinct is to find, chase & catch birds. It takes time to train them so they will be steady to all the scenarios: finding, wing & shot.


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## flashyfawn

I agree with SubMariner, I guess we all have our own methods, but I've always used treats to train my dogs and I've always ended up with dogs who listen equally well, with or without a treat. The treats have to be faded away correctly, and not used as a bribe. I don't ever totally take away the treats but they are given as random rewards during training sessions and are not held in my hand when I'm asking for a behavior. Just tonight, I was in a training group full of people who all compete with their dogs. Everybody initially trained their dogs with treats but the dogs are all able to go into a ring and compete very successfully without any food. To each his own, but I'll never train any other way.


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## Celt

Ah, 2 of the 3 respond to commands when they're given. the third, Scotty, is the only one who expects "payment". We've worked with trainers (the original who convinced me to try her training method and a couple of others). Fading the treats out was a no go. If Scotty doesn't think he'll get a treat, i.e. if I don't have a treat "on me", he'll obey if he feels like it. If he knows that a treat is available he will follow commands. he doesn't even need to be treated every time (usually no more than 3 commands without "payment") just as long as he gets one, but for me this kind of behavior is annoying. I don't want to have to have treats "on me" for my dog to listen. He's the only dog I've owned to have this "problem". It's taken years to try and "untrain" this behavior and it irks me when I see that there's still a lot of ground to cover. I just don't feel this method gives me the results I want.


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## MollyWoppy

What method did you use to train the other dogs?


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## doggiedad

i think it's a training issue and you're letting your dog decide when he's going to listen.


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## Celt

hmm, don't really have a name for it. When I trained, I would first show the dog what I wanted a few times, then add in some "natural consequences" and corrective feedback, if needed. So if I was teaching loose leash walking, I would first have the pup walk with me using his name to keep his attention, warning before turns, and "being a tree" a few times. Then a "natural consequence" would be my turning sharply in the opposite direction without warning in either direction (away from or into the dog). A correction would be a "pop" of the leash (pop means a quick flick, with hand at side, just an upward twisted of the wrist, release as soon as snug tension is achieved). Simple praise (good dog, that'll do) is given during training but nothing over the top, except for on recall which has a celebration on arrival.


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## Shamrockmommy

It could be a training issue, but ime, it's just sometimes the personality of the dog. 
Echo listens pretty well but she is naturally independently minded. She loves to train but if I don't give her food for just about nearly everything I practically get th doggy version of the F word LOL. 
Eventually she will lie down and not do a thing for me. 

I DID change the way I give treats now. I used to have it in a little pouch on my belt. Now I keep the food on a table or shelf somewhere, we do an exercise, and then I praise her "yaay! Good girl!" as we hop over happily to the shelf and she gets a bit. This has also stopped her from only wanting to focus on the food pouch and shift to my right side all the time. 

Lil' stinkers


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## StdPooDad

I have 2 dogs, Seamus and Teaghan. I've done a lot of shaping with Teaghan (clicking and treating), her behaviors are very quickly learned and tend to be solid. 
Seamus was my first dog as an adult, I did more luring and "training with a clicker), i.e., clicking and treating only for the finished behavior. 
I love the way Teaghan will keep offering behaviors until she does what i'm looking for, it's so neat to see the light bulb go on in her eyes when she realizes..."oh, so THAT's what he wants me to do"!
Seamus just sits there looking at me until I tell him what to do. 

But I digress. The point is that dogs learn way differently, but before condemning "treat training", make sure that you are rewarding the behavior when it's done or rewarding intermediate steps if you're shaping, and NOT offering treats to entice the dog to do the behavior.


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## Celt

Scotty will do a behavior as long as he knows a treat will be coming and is "paid" promptly (after at most 3 followed commands). He will come lickety split if he knows I have a treat on me but will blow me off if there's something more interesting and I don't have a treat. It's the availability of treats and the "promptness" of the payment that determines how well he follows a command. He has improved on this behavior although it took too many "corrections" to have commands followed. Now it's mostly off leash/out of range when he's bad about following directions which is why I carry treats with me. At least, I can eventually (when I get the treats) get him to follow the command.


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## BrownieM

I train with treats, but once a behavior is learned, I wean off treats to teach my dogs that the behavior is expected even without treats.


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## Celt

It was the weaning off part that reminded me of my dad saying that a dog shouldn't have "manners" taught by using treats. I was having to retrain him to break him of the "bad" habit of expecting a treat after "every" command. Sadly, I can't seem to get past this "holding pattern" of his refusal to continue following commands without payment. At least not without being "heavier handed" than I have been, but I think that would "break" him instead of training him.


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## StdPooDad

Does he like toys? You could use toys or you can use life rewards. i.e. "come, then go chase the squirrel". 
When I walk Teaghan she likes to just stop and sniff (she's a strong dog so that's not good)
The best thing that I've found is every once in a while I let her, I stop walking and tell her "go sniff". This has greatly improved her leash walking behavior!
It's called the Premack principle. Essentially, give them what they want, but they need to do something for you first.


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## Celt

Sadly, Scotty sees only food rewards as proper payment for obedience. I've always allowed "free time" (sniffing, marking, be bopping) on walks. Never thought about it being a reward, just figured it was something they could do for fun on leashed walks. Things have improved over time. Now, I can get him to follow commands (at least 3 times) without having to have treats available as long as he's on leash. It's when he's "free" that he feels he can do as he wishes and unless we want to keep a leash on him 24/7 for the rest of his life, I don't really see him improving on this.


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## DwayneTaylor

SubMariner said:


> I don't think this is a "treat training" issue as much as it is an obedience issue. Your dogs simply haven't been trained to the point where they will properly respond to your commands.
> 
> It's like what happens with hunting breeds & birds. Their instinct is to find, chase & catch birds. It takes time to train them so they will be steady to all the scenarios: finding, wing & shot.


I agree with you. This is not a method of treating animals, this is like hunting and hurting animals. I do not support this type of training.


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## Celt

My this is an old thread. But since it's been revived, I'll update. Things have improved in some areas of the training issues and got worse in others. Scotty will come almost every time which I'm not happy about the almost part. I can get most of the "manners" on command, quiet is still a struggle though. The main problem now is the demanding/begging for treats. Sadly, there are a few family members who have "trained" him to jump on, bark at or generally just be a pushy butt to them so that they'll give him a treat. It's not all the time or with every one, just at select times/people (i.e. when they "come" home, when there are "visitors" involved). Scotty has learned that certain behaviors will get "strangers" to give him treats and uses this knowledge shamelessly. Scotty is a smart little brat, all it took was him seeing people oohing, awing, and treating another dog for a trick he knew. Now he will run through his bag of tricks until he finds one (or more) that work, and he keeps going until treats are no longer offered. The begging isn't a problem really, just a bit embarrassing at times.


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