# DA/DS Genetic....IDK



## lauren43 (Feb 6, 2011)

I am pretty sure there is no proof that says dog aggression is genetic, but I do realize that some breeds are seemingly more pre-disposed to it than others. For example, I knew before I got my pup that as he matured he could become DA or DS. I think in most cases, dogs are mis-diagnosised. Many dogs are simply dog selective meaning, they only like some other dogs. Some dogs are leash reactive and are fine off leash.

Does anyone know if it is infact genetic?


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## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

My personal opinion - if a dog is aggressive, it's because it wasn't properly socialized or trained. Or maybe very poorly bred.

I don't believe that pit bulls are predisposed to aggression - there are too many of them who are not dog aggressive. Maybe bad breeding can reinforce that trait. But it's not "normal" by any stretch.


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## angelbears (Jun 9, 2011)

I do believe that some breeds are predisposed to certain traits. I have Fila's and they are supposed to have an aversion to strangers. They have to pass a temperament test that shows that aversion before that can get their championship. I do believe it is genetic.


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## kady05 (Jul 29, 2011)

FWIW, I was referring to Bully breeds in that thread. After all, look what they were originally bred to do. 

Here are a couple links re: DA: http://www.badrap.org/rescue/dogdog.html
Pit Bull Rescue Central (scroll to the bottom)

I have known dogs who were HEAVILY socialized as pups and young dogs who grew up to be DA. That doesn't mean their owners were bad people, or didn't do everything "right" when it came to socialization. You can't deny genetics.


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## lauren43 (Feb 6, 2011)

xellil said:


> My personal opinion - if a dog is aggressive, it's because it wasn't properly socialized or trained. Or maybe very poorly bred.
> 
> I don't believe that pit bulls are predisposed to aggression - there are too many of them who are not dog aggressive. Maybe bad breeding can reinforce that trait. But it's not "normal" by any stretch.


I can't fully agree with this because I know at least 5 different households that had dogs together for months when suddenly something changed and they fought. Some of these dogs where pups when brought into the house, not all of them were bully mixes but many of them were, and I know all of these people did everything in their power to create a well rounded pup and took intros slower than I've ever seen. They are all on crate and rotate now. Dog behavior is not static. Just because your dog was great with other dogs at 1 does not necessarily mean they will be good with other dogs at 2 or 3, or for the rest of their lives.


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## Caty M (Aug 13, 2010)

I absolutely believe that some is genetic and some is learned (due to reinforcement OR no socialization). After all, general temperament is genetic- or else breeds would have the same temperament as a whole, and they for sure don't. Most dogs bred for centuries to be guard dogs or livestock guardians aren't going to be super outgoing with people.. breeds that have been bred to be companions for the same amount of time ARE going to be more affectionate and people friendly. I'd imagine that if a dog was bred based on it's DA that eventually the breed as a whole would generally BE more dog aggressive.


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## lauren43 (Feb 6, 2011)

kady05 said:


> FWIW, I was referring to Bully breeds in that thread. After all, look what they were originally bred to do.
> 
> Here are a couple links re: DA: http://www.badrap.org/rescue/dogdog.html
> Pit Bull Rescue Central (scroll to the bottom)
> ...


I agree with that. But I am not sure there is proof saying that these dogs are infact genetically dog aggressive. Many dogs brought up in the worst of conditions, do not end up with dog aggression.


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## Caty M (Aug 13, 2010)

kady05 said:


> FWIW, I was referring to Bully breeds in that thread. After all, look what they were originally bred to do.
> 
> Here are a couple links re: DA: http://www.badrap.org/rescue/dogdog.html
> Pit Bull Rescue Central (scroll to the bottom)
> ...


A similar thing- I have socialized the heck out of my Italian greyhound as a pup and she is still scared of dogs. Genetic, I'd think...


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## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

They were originally bred to bait or hold large animals. They weren't set upon each other until those sports were banned or were no longer necessary.

Dog aggression is no different than the horrible deformity German Shepherds have in their back legs - you can breed that stuff in, but it doesn't mean it's natural.


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## Caty M (Aug 13, 2010)

*No- but if it's bred in, then it's genetic.*


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## kady05 (Jul 29, 2011)

lauren43 said:


> I agree with that. But I am not sure there is proof saying that these dogs are infact genetically dog aggressive. Many dogs brought up in the worst of conditions, do not end up with dog aggression.


Right, that can happen as well. Like the Vick dogs, some are fine with other dogs, but there are other that could never be around another dog. My dogs, for example, have shown no signs of DA. Wilson's brother, however, who was raised around other dogs, etc., is now very dog selective. 



xellil said:


> They were originally bred to bait or hold large animals. They weren't set upon each other until those sports were banned or were no longer necessary.


Right.. but when they started being bred for the sake of dog fighting, that in turn is genetic. It was a trait that was bred for, and still is in many strains of the APBT. Or maybe not specifically bred FOR, but it's certainly not being bred OUT of them, if that makes sense.



Caty M said:


> *No- but if it's bred in, then it's genetic.*


Correct.


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## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

Caty M said:


> *No- but if it's bred in, then it's genetic.*


I agree - but it wasn't the original intent of the breed. Poor breeding shouldn't mean it's ok to say pit bulls are just naturally dog aggressive and that trait should be accepted as normal.


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## Caty M (Aug 13, 2010)

No, I know it wasn't. But it DOES show, poor breeding or not, that temperament and dog aggression can be genetic. I would think that 'learned' DA would be easier to train the dog out of than genetic.


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## lauren43 (Feb 6, 2011)

Caty I just have to say that your avatar is hilarous, but it does scare me a bit.

I dont know either way. I do believe that two dog aggressive parents can produce pups that are not dog aggressive. But I also agree with the fact that for the last 100ish years or so bully breeds were bred to fight other dogs. On a positive note, they were also bred to be amazing companion animals. I mean you can't pull a human aggressive dog out of a fighting ring safely.


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## lauren43 (Feb 6, 2011)

xellil said:


> I agree - but it wasn't the original intent of the breed. Poor breeding shouldn't mean it's ok to say pit bulls are just naturally dog aggressive and that trait should be accepted as normal.


I am not saying its ok. But I am saying that no one should get a bully mixed pup and think that if they love it and train it, the pup will always love other dogs. I have seen it first hand, pups mature and things change.


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## CorgiPaws (Mar 31, 2009)

I DO believe that it is part nature part nurture. 

Enters, Nature

Just as Border Collies were bred to heard, and Labs were bred to retrieve, such were some dogs bred to fight. It is, in fact, a reality that I can't ignore. I watch dogs in daycare ALL the time show breed-specific traits. Boxers stand and play with their front paws. Border collies run in circles around groups of dogs. Corgis nip the heels of dogs, herding them, labs that play fetch for hours.... these are things that come with their breeds, and this is just a few examples... I could go on and on. *What I don't understand is that all of these breed traits are SO easily accepted by the general public... I mean after all... that's what they were bred to do, right?! I don't understand, then, why some breeds being genetically predisposed to being dog aggressive is so rejected by so many people who want to believe otherwise. It is reality.*

Not every Border collie will heard. Grissom (the Corgi) has not an OUNCE of herding instinct in his short legged body. Not every lab will retrieve. Not every Beagle will track. And... not evert Pit will fight, but I DO believe they are more likely to. I'm certain there are so many that would NEVER dream of picking a fight.... I've met plenty of them. Annie's buddy at the Henderson, NV dog part was a pretty little pit that played wonderful with her! Before our insurance company disallowed it, we accepted Pits and admittedly, had no more issues with them than any other breed. 

In comes Nurture. 

Without proper socialization, any dog can be DA or HA. I think people with bully-type breeds need to be EXTRA generous with the socialization time when their dogs are puppies. Getting them off on the right foot I firmly believe greatly reduces the chances of having a truly DA or HA aggressive dog but I do NOT believe that it can always counteract that initial predisposition. Sure, maybe sometimes it can. Maybe even most times it can. That's something we will never know, but based on my experience, I DO think that owners can do absolutely everything "right" and still end up with a DA dog. 

Many people who shoot down the genetic predisposition theory are the same people who would get all fired up about breeders using dogs with less than ideal temperaments in their breeding programs, which is entirely oxymoronic! Temperament and personality absolutely are partly genetics... that's why it's so important to me that my dogs dome out of even tempered parents.... in fact, it's tied right there at #1 with health... because I know and understand what it can mean for the personality/train-ability of my puppies! If someone is breeding an aggressive dog, that's a HUGE red flag to me. 

Now, Annie is not a Pit Bull by any stretch of the imagination... but I will use her as an example. She GREW UP going to doggy daycare frequently. She went to fairs, expos, parks, farms, lakes, family and friend's houses... she went EVERYWHERE. My only regret is not having her around kids enough. She jumps on them. She is GREAT with all kinds of people. She was good with all dogs until she was about a year and a half, and then she kind of made an overnight change. She now hates Border Collies. She started going after dogs that she has peacefully co existed with for 18 months.... we did "Puppy Kindergarden" we did daycare. We did parks. We did walks. We did everything. It simply is what it is, and if we go to a dog park, and there are Border Collie-type dogs... Annie just doesn't go. 



That being said, I don't think that a DA dog is a TRUE threat, as long as they are in responsible hands. They can still go out, they can still be around people (I REALLLLY don't think DA and HA are relative to one another at all!) they can still make wonderful well-rounded pets. Not all dogs NEED other dogs for companionship, there's nothing wrong with that. As someone with intent to breed dogs in the near future... would I ever breed a DA bitch/stud? No, of course not. The goal is and always should be even-tempered animals. But I hate the mentality that a DA dog must be PTS because they are a "threat"
I don't know where I stand on HA dogs. That's far more complicated.


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## Caty M (Aug 13, 2010)

lauren43 said:


> Caty I just have to say that your avatar is hilarous, but it does scare me a bit.


Thanks, haha.

Yes, parents do not always pass on everything exact to their pups... not all great pyrs are suitable for guarding livestock for example... and if you breed two conformationally correct dogs they will definitely not always throw correct pups. But generally, taking the breed as a whole, do have typical breed characteristics in their temperament.


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## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

lauren43 said:


> I am not saying its ok. But I am saying that no one should get a bully mixed pup and think that if they love it and train it, the pup will always love other dogs. I have seen it first hand, pups mature and things change.


Probably not. i had a pit bull/chow mix that was a wonderful dog for 11 years, and then bit a 6 year old kid in the face. I put him in a situation I should have never put him in, because I was complacent about his years of nonaggression to dogs OR people.

Was that genetic, or was that my fault? I tend to think it was my fault. He might have had some genetic predisposition, but my ignorance and carelessness was what actually caused it.


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## CorgiPaws (Mar 31, 2009)

lauren43 said:


> I am not saying its ok. But I am saying that no one should get a bully mixed pup and think that if they love it and train it, the pup will always love other dogs. I have seen it first hand, pups mature and things change.


I agree. They can try, and probably try harder than owners of other breeds.... but it won't ALWAYS be enough to override. 

But of course, I've had the pleasure of knowing some GREAT "genetically predisposed" dogs... some of which are DA< some of which aren't.... and they're all awesome, regardless.


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## CorgiPaws (Mar 31, 2009)

xellil said:


> Probably not. i had a pit bull/chow mix that was a wonderful dog for 11 years, and then bit a 6 year old kid in the face. I put him in a situation I should have never put him in, because I was complacent about his years of nonaggression to dogs OR people.
> 
> Was that genetic, or was that my fault? I tend to think it was my fault. He might have had some genetic predisposition, but my ignorance and carelessness was what actually caused it.


I would not place that on carelessness. 
11 years old, no issues.... unless the child was doing something they shouldn't be, like being in the dog's face, pestering him, attempting to hug him, etc. and if he was in general good health, and comfortable (not old, cranky, achy) then I wouldn't say you did anything wrong... you had no reason to believe there would be an issue. 
I had no reason to believe Annie would bite this BC she had played with multiple times a week the first time it happened. I was confused as all get out. It happened RIGHT in front of me, I was convinced I entirely missed something. The second time, which was the next time she saw a BC, I knew it was a change, in her, not in the situation. (mind you none of these were damage-done ordeals. two small puncture wounds were the extent of it the first time, no damage done the second) Since then, any time she sees one, she "stalks" them and watches their every move, sometimes growling. She is very very easily controlled on leach, or even by voice... but I'd never leave her unattended with one!


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## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

It had something to do with one of those cars that you push along on the ground and makes a noise. I think my dog thought that car/noise was a threat. He was standing between me and the kid, I was about a foot away. It was very fast and I'm sure there was a warning I missed but it seemed instantaneous. But in the end I do think it was my fault - I hadn't socialized him around kids' toys, for one thing. Or he hadn't been around enough children, period. Or he was just exposed to too many people that day and was sick of it. All of that was avoidable.

I don't let my dogs around children after that. Maybe that's wrong, but I'm just not going through that again.


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## lauren43 (Feb 6, 2011)

PuppyPaws said:


> *What I don't understand is that all of these breed traits are SO easily accepted by the general public... I mean after all... that's what they were bred to do, right?! I don't understand, then, why some breeds being genetically predisposed to being dog aggressive is so rejected by so many people who want to believe otherwise. It is reality.*
> 
> That being said, I don't think that a DA dog is a TRUE threat, as long as they are in responsible hands. They can still go out, they can still be around people (I REALLLLY don't think DA and HA are relative to one another at all!) they can still make wonderful well-rounded pets. Not all dogs NEED other dogs for companionship, there's nothing wrong with that. As someone with intent to breed dogs in the near future... would I ever breed a DA bitch/stud? No, of course not. The goal is and always should be even-tempered animals. But I hate the mentality that a DA dog must be PTS because they are a "threat"
> I don't know where I stand on HA dogs. That's far more complicated.


I just want to say that I wasn't sure either way (if it was or wasn't genetic)...but when you compare it to hunting dogs and guard dogs and the like, it makes sense.

However I think that people have an issue with dog aggression because sooo many believe that human aggression and dog aggression are linked, when in fact they are two completely different things. 

I'm right there with you on HA and I have actually seen dogs turn around...but I have also seen dogs have to be PTS because of it.


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## Cliffdog (Dec 30, 2010)

As far as HA is concerned I think it depends on the cause... is it genetic, or is it socialization? If it's because of a lack of socialization most of the time you could rehabilitate the dog, but sometimes a dog is just wired wrong, like a neurological problem. I know someone who had a GREAT little puppy, loving and affectionate and just what you'd want out of an APBT pup (pet). Then as the dog grew up, it suddenly became very aggressive toward people, including his daughters. The vet confirmed there was nothing _physically_ wrong with the dog to cause such a change, and it had to be put down. The dog was raised well in a household which has successfully brought up multiple other dogs of the same breed, but something was just wrong with the poor dog's brain.


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## RawFedDogs (Jun 16, 2008)

I saw a study several years ago that said a majority (they named a percentage but I don't remember it) of dogs that had mauled people were dogs that were chained up and had broken loose or someone wandered into the chain area. I'm a believer that chaining a dog is the fastest easiest way to create a HA dog. I'm not talking about chaining a dog out temporarily while you are out working in the yard or something like that. I'm talking about dogs that LIVE in a chained up condition.


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## leilaquinn (Sep 7, 2011)

My pit bull loves other dogs. For now. There are plenty of pit bulls that do, anything that isn't still actively bred for gets diluted, but it is also more likely to pop up genetically than it is in say, a beagle, that has been bred to hunt in packs. My dog is also very prey driven and has looked at a few tiny dogs like they were snacks, but is friendly once he's close enough to realize it's a dog and not a bunny. i am very cautious with all of his dog interactions, and there are lots of dogs who are unfriendly to him due to his rude bully play style, but at about 21 months he LOVES other dogs, and when he gets to play with bigger, rough and tumble dogs he seems happier than just about any other time. I really hope he always feels this way, I would love to have another dog in the future and would rather avoid crating and rotating, but if he one day decides he wants all other dogs dead, I will love him just as much as I do now, and he will just stop playing with other dogs. It is a fair trade to me that he is also genetically inclined to have no agression towards people, which he continues to live up to. being genetically predisposed to something dosn't mean it WILL be true, just that it is something to be prepared for.


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## Maxy24 (Mar 5, 2011)

Yes I think aggression can be genetic, and I also think the predisposition to aggression can be genetic. What I mean by these two things is that one the one hand you have a dog bred for fighting, this dog is dog aggressive because many, many dog in his pedigree were and his genes matched up in a way that makes him want to fight other dogs. But on the other hand you can have an aggressive dog who does not have genes for aggression but has genes for extreme fear or suspicion of either a specific group (dogs, strangers, or noises) or of all unfamiliar things. This genetic inheritance of fearfulness is what predisposes him to aggression (towards what he happens to fear).


For example my dog is aggressive towards strangers, his aggression is not genetic, his fearfulness is. I think straight inheritance of aggression (in the case of a dog who inherits the desire to fight) and inheritance of something that predisposes him to aggression (in the case of the fear aggressive dog) are different because the mindset and emotions of the dogs are different when they are reacting. 

There are a whole host of other predispositions too. Perhaps your dog inherited a short temper. He is not afraid of other dogs, he does not desire to fight other dogs, but they tick him off really easily so he ends up in lots of fights. Perhaps your dog inherited physical sensitivity so he is far more responsive to pain. Again he's not afraid and does not desire to fight but ends up reacting aggressively more often because he is more frequently defending himself from those who cause him pain.

The only thing that bothers me about the genetic aggression argument is when owners of DA dogs of more commonly DA breeds automatically assume the cause of their dog's DA is genetic. Your dog may not have inherited the combination of genes that make him DA, perhaps his DA stems from lack of socialization (fear) and therefore could actually be remedied.


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## Rodeo (Sep 11, 2011)

xellil said:


> My personal opinion - if a dog is aggressive, it's because it wasn't properly socialized or trained. Or maybe very poorly bred.
> 
> I don't believe that pit bulls are predisposed to aggression - there are too many of them who are not dog aggressive. Maybe bad breeding can reinforce that trait. But it's not "normal" by any stretch.


I would like to kindly disagree.  They were originally bred TO fight. There may be a few who have never been in a fight but I don't personally know any. My best friend has 7 pits. Fights do happen. They are GREAT with people, but you never really know when they are going to decide they just aren't in the mood for other dogs. Training and socializing GREATLY helps decrease DA is most cases, I believe, but in the end, it was bred into them and it's something they enjoy. At one point I had two. One was very DS one never showed any aggression. She would even share her food bowl. Then out of the blue she would pounce on the other dog. I don't know if it's genetic in the sense that a DA dog will produce more DA dogs but I do believe that certain breeds will do what they were bred to do.


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## Slayer Girl (Sep 8, 2011)

I know it has all been said a hundred ways and times in this thread..I kind of share opinions with the OP. I think DA can be inherited but also some dogs labelled as DA are more DS. My dog is DS...she seems to not like small dogs if they arent calm...and she is absolutely angered by dogs in boots. I socialized her TONS...even tried to work past the boot issue..no luck. As for small dogs..calm ones are met with passiveness..rowdy ones are met with snarls.


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