# Pits... around other Dogs.



## kevin bradley

Lisa's post on the Pit Puppy got me thinking about Pits in general...

First off, I love the breed. I think they are amazing and very loving Dogs. But I'm also not naive enough to not understand that they do present some different dynamics from other breeds. 

I've read this frequently on all the Bully breeds... that you cannot leave them alone with your other Dogs because of their tendency to fight. Its more than just people talking about this at the watercooler... I know I've actually read it in one of the mags recently(I think the title was actually "Bully Breeds")...
As I recall, they point blank said that you have to separate your Dogs while you are away or they could go at it. This surprises me. 

Personally, I find it hard to believe that a Dog raised with other Dogs in a positive environment would just go to battle the minute I leave the house... heck, I would think they'd just sit by the window waiting for me to come home like they always do. 

I'd like to hear some thoughts from Pit owners and how the interaction between other Dogs works. Does some of the fighting tendencies come out of nowhere? Do you really have to separate everyone each time you leave the house?

thanks


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## xxshaelxx

Ummm...that has got to be one of the biggest load of crap I've ever heard in my life. The two pits I was taking care of a while back NEVER fought. However, I constantly find that if left to their own devices, my two Siberian Huskies will duke it out when they get the chance. I'm constantly breaking up fights between Amaya and Ryou.


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## kevin bradley

XX, thanks. that makes me feel better. I am 100% certain I read this in that Bully Breed Dog mag. I was shocked and it seemed like a real disservice to the breed. 

Note-I want to be clear here...I'm not talking about the typical scuffle that some Dogs get into from time to time. My guys will snap at each other once in awhile if a treat or bone is involved. Its usually over in 5 seconds or less. 

This article made it sound like they would go at it if you leave them...almost like a dog fighting ring. 

Scared me because I've always wanted a Pit but reading this type of crap causes you to pause and think..."can I have one if I have other dogs?"


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## catahoulamom

Nope.

It all depends on the dog. How it is raised, as you mention.

I have a pitbull, who was, until recently, intact (rescued) and I never seperated him from my other dogs. He is extremely submissive, if anyone wants to show him they're the boss, he rolls over, tail wagging (and snorting), until the coast is clear. 

Are they bred for fighting? Often, yes. Are they capable of doing severe damage? Yes. But I do believe that it is all how a dog is raised. 

If you do have one dog that is unpredictable, or particuarly agressive/territorial, I would reccomend seperating them when you leave the house... just because a pitbull (or any dog) isn't agressive doesn't mean they won't fight back if they are attacked.

Hope this helps answer your question.... :smile:


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## cast71

It has nothing to do with breed, although people feel this way because pitbulls can do alot of damage. When they lock on, it's very very hard to get them off. Plus they have very powerful jaws, that can break bones easily. That's the big difference between them and alot of other breeds. My meaning of dominant means dogs that want to be top dog. So you can have a dominant rottie and a dominant chihuahua, and they will constantly fight for alpha position. The chihuahua might win, don't think so ahahahahaaha. I'm not sure you can teach two dominant dogs to live together in perfect harmony. They will probablly fight every so often. My dog's dominant and my friends dog is dominant. They had some nasty fights and were best friends 5 minutes later. I think that's the best we can do between the two. We tried and they do get along, but they both want to be top dog. I feel fights between them, are unavoidable, unless your there to seperate them before the adrenalin kicks in. We have left them alone a few times, and I did think about them duking it out. I was nervous, because my dog is a bullybreed. Luckily we never had any problems. To be safe, I never recommend leaving two dominant dogs together unsupervised. That's goes especially if one is a bullybreed, only because of the damage they can do and no one will be there to break it up. I know I'm making them sound like savage beasts, but there's alot of responsibility with a dominant bullybreed. Only certain people should have dominant dogs, because of the extra responsibility. That goes for even a dominant chiwahah. You know how many times little dogs tried to bite my dog:yell: Alot of owners have no control over them. Any submissive dog is fine to leave alone with another submissive or dominant dog. Hope I do not get to much heat for this post:yield:


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## Cliffdog

To be on the safe side, I would never, ever leave my pit bull alone with my Doberman.

APBTs are born to fight. It's in their genetics. You can't socialize it out of them. Some APBTs are social enough with other dogs that they can be with other dogs while supervised, but it's a dangerous risk to leave them alone. This is because small triggers can make a pibble want to fight, and when they start, they finish. They do a whole lot of damage in a short span of time. And even if you break it up, the breed as a whole is not a dog who will just forget it and go back to normal. These dogs can never be expected to peacefully reside together again.

Anyone who owns an APBT in a multiple dog home should be prepared for a fight. They should have a break stick, and be aware that one day they may have to crate/rotate their dogs.

You cannot train away so many generations of DA. It will always be there. APBTs have been my breed of choice for ten years and I can honestly say that they find great joy in killing other dogs.


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## jdatwood

It's crap like you just posted that perpetuates the ignorance against the Bully breeds.


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## Cliffdog

I'm sorry you don't agree with the facts that every APBT breeder/handler in the country knows.

ETA: Good link: http://www.pitbulllovers.com/two-pit-bulls-is-a-bad-idea.html


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## cast71

Cliffdog I think your totally wrong. It has nothing to do with dna. It has to do with two dominant dogs of any breed will fight to be leader. My dog wants to be leader 100% of the time. That's because he has a high hunting prey drive. He wants to be the leader in a hunting pack. He has never started a fight in the 7.5 years I had him. He will always fight if challenged. It sux but this is how he is and I have accepted it. The only area dna comes into play are in the physical characteristics. Dogs do forget right after they fight. I've witnessed my dog and my friends dog fighting three different times and they were best friends right after. They were fighting for alpha position. The key is to stop this behavior before they get it in there head. That means constant supervision between two dominant dogs of any breed.


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## Cliffdog

Well, having been around as many pit bulls as I have, I have to say that pit bulls are very dog aggressive by nature. All of the dogs at the shows I've been to (weight pull, OB, ABDA conformation) have been VERY well mannered and have been well-behaved around other dogs because their handlers keep such tight control of them. However, if two dogs decide to fight, they just decide to fight, and there is not much rhyme or reason behind why they do (at least to humans; to them it makes perfect sense!).

I am not saying that pit bulls are a ticking time bomb ready to explode at any minute. What I am saying is that it is in their genetic code to be *dog* aggressive. And yes, they will fight for dominance. And while most dogs will forget a fight has ever happened, with pit bulls, that is simply not the case. Of the hundreds of pit bull owners I have spoken to in the last few years, about 90% agree. And 100% agree that dog aggression is a nigh-unavoidable trait.

That said, there is a huge difference between dog aggression and human aggression. They have absolutely NO correlation to one another. A properly bred and socialized pit bull is one of the absolute best family dogs that an owner could wish for. But they are simply not a dog who thrives in a multiple-dog household. Owners with more than one pit bull need to keep them separated when they are not at home. They should also take care to exercise their dog, because two bored pit bulls are more likely to fight. Owners should also have a sound idea of what it looks like when play escalates to aggression.


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## cast71

Than you have been around alot of dominant dogs. I still say that dominant dogs will fight. That's the only reason there fighting. There simply fighting for dominance. Dogs pick up the smallest behavior that you would miss. Even when it doesn't look like two dominant dogs are looking at each other, they are observing every movement. Once they sense dominance and they get the idea in there head that they want to be dominant, they charge. This goes for any dog and is not bred in specific breed dna. Again, the only thing DNA is controlling is physical characteristics. Dogs have the same basic instincts. There physical characteristics might influence there instincts. Like a blood hound has an awesome nose, so he likes to track more than another dog. All dogs like to track though. To say pitbulls are very aggressive by nature is insane. There are submissive pitbulls and there are dominant pitbulls. It's simple. Is every pitball dominant? No! My friends uncle had three pitpulls and little children living under the same house happily ever after. I only met him twice, but he never mentioned any dominance issues. He did say his little children are very rough with the dogs and they just take it happily. Not to get off the main subject too much, I think the bottom line is, there is extra responsibilities that come with dominant dogs. If people can't handle those responsibilities, they should look for a subbmissive dog. That goes for any breed. Pitbulls do fine around other dogs in the same household. You just have to observe and make sure you have compatible animals. To kevin who is interested in adopting a pitbull, you can always take one home and see if it gets along with you other dogs. Rescues are understanding and usually test the dog to see if there ok for multiple dog homes;0) Pitbulls need as much help as any other dog in rescue and they will love you until they die like any other dog:llama:


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## Cliffdog

I highly doubt that of the hundreds, maybe thousands of APBTs I have seen, they have all been dominant. The thing is, a dominant pit will fight with a submissive pit. It just happens some times. Still, I don't actually believe that you should never have multiple pitties. I just think they should be supervised. Why take the chance? I love pitties and every time one gets into a fight it adds to the bad rep of the breed.


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## DaneMama

Cliff.....dear boy....I believe you are severely misguided in the idea of breed stereotype.

Dogs first and foremost are INDIVIDUALS that form their identities, personalities and dispositions from both nature (DNA) AND nurture (environment). While some dogs have traditionally been bred to "fight" that doesn't mean that through PROPER dog rearing that they will always want to fight. In my experience nurture plays a MUCH bigger role in development of an individual than nature does. It just might be that pitties (and other bully breeds) just need more guidance and leadership to overcome their genetic faults (the need to fight). 

Any dog can be made to be aggressive through the right kind of training and environment....even a cuddly poodle that can do MAJOR damage in a short amount of time. The exact opposite is true for bully breeds...in the right environment and the proper socialization and care these dogs can be the most loving and dog/people friendly dogs out there. 

You really do need to realize that dogs are INDIVIDUALS :thumb: :wink:


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## nikkiluvsu15

I, personally, never leave Harleigh & Rebel alone.

Mainly due to the fact that APBT's were BRED to fight - it is genetics. Yes, some can be more submissive, etc. and Rebel is one of those, but I'm not taking the chance. The fact is, this breed was bred to fight dogs and its hardwired into them. They may not always START the fight, but most times they will finish it. JMO.

The thing that most people have a hard time wrapping their brain away (at least the ones I talk to) is they can't comprehend that Dog Aggression is different than Human Aggression. Drives me insane 

(And I don't see how CliffDog is the one who is making people be irresponsible about the breed. APBT's are known for being DA. Any responsible Pit owner would know and agree with that - if they try to push them off as a being no different than any other breed and its all about how you raise them, that is what makes people irresponsible about the breed. imo.)


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## RachelsaurusRexU

I separate my dogs when I am am not home to supervise as a precautionary measure. I have had dogs that were raised together and once got along beautifully together get into some pretty serious fights which, if I hadn't been around to break up, likely would have resulted in serious injury or worse. 

I also had a fight break out between three dogs, who never had issues, over my stupidity; putting a bag of garbage on the floor and turning my back. One dog approached to sniff, the second dog approached to sniff, first dog growled at second dog, dogs went at it like two freight trains and third dog jumped in. In this situation, I know that one of my dogs would have been killed had I not been able/been home to break up the fight. 

Many pit bulls absolutely do have a propensity to be dog aggressive, even when well socialized and raised with other dogs. Very often when they reach maturity, things have a tendency to escalate rather quickly and intensely. What was once rough play may very well turn into something more serious if people aren't there to intervene. Don't forget, these dogs were bred for generations for their tenacity, pain threshold and incredibly muscular jaws. If a fight does break out and is allowed to continue, they are very capable of inflicting far worse injury than a lot of other breeds. 

These things are well known in the pitty community and most of us separate our dogs when they can't be supervised as a precautionary measure. That's NOT to say that every pit bull is going to fight, but I'd certainly rather be safe than come home to one dead and one severely injured dog. Believe me, it wouldn't be the first time it's happened to otherwise well trained, well socialized, friendly dogs who always got along just fine. And actually, many pit bull rescues require that adopters crate and separate in multiple dog households. 

It's something that responsible pitty owners should accept and work around.


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## DaneMama

Same can be said for most breeds out there. We have had our fair share of bitch fights with our pack...and it wasn't pretty and we have Danes (who pack a pretty hefty punch when motivated) and mutts! They were ALL determined to finish the fight if we didn't intervene. Luckily enough it happened right in front of us AND we know what triggered it (foster Dane was throwing off the pack dynamic). 

I think it comes down to ANY dog that cannot be trusted when left alone...not just pitties.


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## RachelsaurusRexU

danemama08 said:


> Same can be said for most breeds out there. We have had our fair share of bitch fights with our pack...and it wasn't pretty and we have Danes (who pack a pretty hefty punch when motivated) and mutts!
> 
> I think it comes down to ANY dog that cannot be trusted when left alone...not just pitties.


I do agree with this, and after the fights I've had in my house I don't think I will ever leave any of my dogs together unsupervised regardless of breed.


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## cast71

RachelsaurusRexU said:


> I also had a fight break out between three dogs, who never had issues, over my stupidity; putting a bag of garbage on the floor and turning my back. One dog approached to sniff, the second dog approached to sniff, first dog growled at second dog, dogs went at it like two freight trains and third dog jumped in. In this situation, I know that one of my dogs would have been killed had I not been able/been home to break up the fight.



How did you break up three dogs? I ave a problem breaking up two dogs. Me and my friend grabbed there back legs and tried pulling apart. My dog would not let go. It's pretty scary when this happens. I know about break sticks, but I do not know how to use one and would be afraid to break his jaw. There has to be a safer and easier way to break him away.


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## DaneMama

RachelsaurusRexU said:


> I do agree with this, and after the fights I've had in my house I don't think I will ever leave any of my dogs together unsupervised regardless of breed.


Are all your dogs rescues?


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## DaneMama

cast71 said:


> How did you break up three dogs? I ave a problem breaking up two dogs. Me and my friend grabbed there back legs and tried pulling apart. My dog would not let go. It's pretty scary when this happens. I know about break sticks, but I do not know how to use one and would be afraid to break his jaw. There has to be a safer and easier way to break him away.


Use water. LOTS of water. Either a hose if handy or a bucket of water and splash them. This typically works for most dogs in severe fights. It catches them off guard.


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## cast71

danemama08 said:


> Use water. LOTS of water. Either a hose if handy or a bucket of water and splash them. This typically works for most dogs in severe fights. It catches them off guard.


Anybody have any other suggestions? The more the merrier ahahaha This sounds like a good idea, but all the times I had problems, we were far from the house. I guess a 5 gal bucket will work. I'm really on top of these two guys now. I look for any signs of stupidness ahahahaha


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## RachelsaurusRexU

cast71 said:


> How did you break up three dogs? I ave a problem breaking up two dogs. Me and my friend grabbed there back legs and tried pulling apart. My dog would not let go. It's pretty scary when this happens. I know about break sticks, but I do not know how to use one and would be afraid to break his jaw. There has to be a safer and easier way to break him away.


It was incredibly difficult! I tried water, banging pots and pans, picking up one dogs hind legs....nothing worked. Finally I decided that I had to risk my arms or one of them was going to be killed. I actually strangled Guinness (who was doing the most damage) by her collar until she let go while backing everybody toward a room with a sliding glass door. Once she let go I shut the door between her and the other two. I then got the other two out into their pen and they stopped. 

There was blood EVERYWHERE. Lots of blood to clean up and LOTS of wounds to be stitched. Worst thing I have ever witnessed. I don't see how people can willingly watch it for sh*ts and giggles.

ETA: I wouldn't recommend this method. LOL.


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## RachelsaurusRexU

danemama08 said:


> Are all your dogs rescues?


Yes indeedy do!


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## cast71

I too witnessed carnage. That's why I'm trying to learn alternatives. Everyone recommends break sticks. I don't like that idea, because you can break there jaws. I was thinking of shooting a shotgun with blanks in it, up in the air next time. I know it sounds hickish:mullet:, but you guys think it might work.


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## whiteleo

Its called a zapstick, you don't actually have to use the zapstick on the dogs but just the noise of it pretty much stops the dogs in their tracks.

Remember I don't have pits but I do have "bull terriers" and they were originally bred for bull baiting and then dog fighting. Their unwillingness to "let go" when they have ahold of another dog is by far the worst situation I've ever been in before the zapstick.


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## cast71

I really appreciate your input. Do you have some decent web links I could check out. Thanks. The breakstick is something different. You use it to pry the jaw open.

Edit: I already have a zapstick. I never heard that name for it ahahaha. You sure that sound is going to break up a dog fight??? If so that's good news.


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## DaneMama

RachelsaurusRexU said:


> Yes indeedy do!


This probably has the most to do with why you cannot trust your dogs together (and the reason they fight) when left alone. Probably more often than not (in my experience in rescue), rescued dogs didn't have the best upbringing, socialization and training. While dogs can be rehabilitated to be fit for a "normal" life scars from the past are hard and if not impossible to mend completely. 

My guess is that if you had gotten your dogs from puppies and worked with them the way they should be that things would be different. Dogs that are raised together act more like a family pack, which evolutionarily would disadvantageous to fight with one another. 

The only fights that we have had within our pack alone was when Jon and I first started dating. Shiloh and Bailey did NOT see eye to eye. Luckily they always got into it when we were around. It happened maybe 3-4 times and now they are snuggled on the couch together...almost 2.5 years later. The *really* bad fight we had was initiated by a foster Dane that was staying with us that happened over a toy. EVERYBODY got hurt except the foster Dane Sheba...not sure how that worked out since it was everyone against her. She was our last foster. We decided that kind of experience was more damaging and we couldn't provide the best rehab home


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## Cliffdog

Dogs are individuals, but saying aggression isn't bred-in is like saying prey drive, guarding, herding, and pointing isn't bred-in. Dogs can be *trained* not to fight, but it is still pre-programmed into an APBT to do so, so leaving them together *unsupervised* is just a way to encourage trouble. Ask any APBT breeder who has been in the breed for 10, 20, 30+ years and they will agree. 

For breaking up fights in which an APBT or other bully breed is involved, most pit breeders use a break stick:
Pit Bull Rescue Central | Break Stick


> Why Should Responsible Pit Bull Owners Have a Break Stick?
> Because canines are pack animals, fights are possible in any multi-dog household, no matter what breed of dog you own. A responsible owner should take measures to prevent such fights, but he or she should also be prepared for the worst. The goal of any owner should be to break up a fight quickly and efficiently. The majority of breeds will snap erratically at their opponent, biting and releasing repeatedly. As terriers, pit bulls will usually bite and hold. Contrary to popular myth, this is not some kind of special pit bull behavior; it is merely terrier behavior. As its name suggests, a break stick is designed to break this determined terrier hold. This is the safest, easiest, and most effective way to stop a fight.
> 
> Do not attempt to use a break stick on other dog breeds.
> 
> Attempting to use a break stick on other breeds could result in serious injury to the person using the stick. Since other breeds will unpredictably snap and bite instead of getting a grip, you are far more likely to be bitten. You also should not attempt to use a break stick with other terriers. While all terriers grab and hold, pit bulls are far less likely to redirect their bite on an intervening human than, say, a Jack Russell Terrier. For the same reason, you also need to be very careful when separating your pit bull from another breed. Your pit bull will probably not bite you, but you might get bitten by the other dog.


BUT be careful. Like the page suggests, this is a tool that will make some people think you are a dog fighter, same with a spring pole or flirt pole. It's all raving idiocy, but until people wisen up about these amazing dogs, just _owning_ one will make people suspicious of you. 

ETA: Most pibble breeders/owners/handlers prefer a breakstick over distraction methods like zapsticks, because if you do it right it will never fail. It is actually physically separating the dogs instead of distracting them off of one another. That said, I also own a zapstick.


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## RachelsaurusRexU

danemama08 said:


> This probably has the most to do with why you cannot trust your dogs together (and the reason they fight) when left alone. Probably more often than not (in my experience in rescue), rescued dogs didn't have the best upbringing, socialization and training. While dogs can be rehabilitated to be fit for a "normal" life scars from the past are hard and if not impossible to mend completely.
> 
> My guess is that if you had gotten your dogs from puppies and worked with them the way they should be that things would be different. Dogs that are raised together act more like a family pack, which evolutionarily would disadvantageous to fight with one another.
> 
> The only fights that we have had within our pack alone was when Jon and I first started dating. Shiloh and Bailey did NOT see eye to eye. Luckily they always got into it when we were around. It happened maybe 3-4 times and now they are snuggled on the couch together...almost 2.5 years later. The *really* bad fight we had was initiated by a foster Dane that was staying with us that happened over a toy. EVERYBODY got hurt except the foster Dane Sheba...not sure how that worked out since it was everyone against her. She was our last foster. We decided that kind of experience was more damaging and we couldn't provide the best rehab home


I raised two of them from puppies (at two totally different times, one is 3 and one is 6 now) with daycare, obedience, dog parks, play dates, etc. Those are the two that ganged up on and almost killed Frankie. 

Funny enough, two of the dogs I rescued as adults from down south (one with an unknown history and a hack job of an ear crop, and the other that spent the first 3 years of her life chained up and overbred) are absolutely perfect together like PB&J and out of all of my dogs I'd trust them alone together the most. But I STILL wouldn't chance it, because to me it's just not worth it.


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## DaneMama

RachelsaurusRexU said:


> I raised two of them as puppies with daycare, obedience, dog parks, play dates, etc.


At what age did you get them?

Cliff...I guess I don't have enough experience around that many pitts so I will take your word for it. I just have a hard time wrapping my head around it all.


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## Cliffdog

danemama08 said:


> Cliff...I guess I don't have enough experience around that many pitts so I will take your word for it. I just have a hard time wrapping my head around it all.


Well, the thing is that training and socialization does prevent a lot of fights, and while I was watching, I would trust a pair of well-trained pitties. But I just think that while they are alone together, it's just good to be on the safe side. I mean, why risk it? Safety first! :happy:


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## RachelsaurusRexU

danemama08 said:


> At what age did you get them?
> 
> Cliff...I guess I don't have enough experience around that many pitts so I will take your word for it. I just have a hard time wrapping my head around it all.


Approximately 8 weeks for one and 10 weeks for the other.


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## RachelsaurusRexU

Cliffdog said:


> Well, the thing is that training and socialization does prevent a lot of fights, and while I was watching, I would trust a pair of well-trained pitties. But I just think that while they are alone together, it's just good to be on the safe side. I mean, why risk it? Safety first! :happy:


This is how I feel also.


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## DaneMama

I would hate to not trust my dogs not to kill each other. If I knew my dogs had the capability to do that...I wouldn't own them together. Because fights can and do break out when you are right there watching. I know that some dogs are just not good around other dogs on a very basic level...

I'm sure my dogs could kill each other but I trust them not to when we are not around


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## Cliffdog

Well, Danes aren't as DA prone as pit bulls. What most APBT breeders/enthusiasts suggest is that each dog has an outdoor doghouse and run. They are expensive to install, but so worth it for the peace of mind. It may seem restrictive, but what it really does is gives each dog their own safe zone, like a crate but with room to run around in, their own 'territory' that the other dog cannot bother them in, and they tend to prefer it this way from what I hear.


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## DaneMama

The pitt owners that I know don't seem to have the issues that would need for such confinement and restriction....so this whole concept is completely new to me.

Some of the pitts that we have come stay at our boarding facility definitely have severe dog aggression and I wouldn't trust around any dog either supervised or not. Most are rescues and a few are original owners.


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## RachelsaurusRexU

The thing is, it really can happen to pretty much anyone. Dogs can be fine together for years and one stupid little thing can trigger a serious battle. That's not a reason I'm going to decide to rehome one of my dogs, I'm just going to become more vigilant and better learn how to prevent such situations. If people are present and a fight breaks out, it's usually not a huge deal, in the scheme of things. If nobody is there to manage the situation, it can easily become a disaster.

Maybe I'm just overly cautious, but I never expected them to brawl before it happened. It just suddenly happened and I am so thankful I was there to do something about it.


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## DaneMama

Oh, I totally know that fights can happen with any dogs, anywhere, for any reason and at any time. THAT concept isn't new to me at all.

I just have complete trust in my dogs that they wont fight when left alone together. They all pass out on the couch and snuggle while we are gone. When we have a new dog or foster or dog sitter in the house, thats another story...


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## Cliffdog

Yeah, most pibbles I know can't sit still for that long, ha! They're very obedient but they just have sooo much energy, just like most terriers do.


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## RachelsaurusRexU

danemama08 said:


> Oh, I totally know that fights can happen with any dogs, anywhere, for any reason and at any time. THAT concept isn't new to me at all.
> 
> I just have complete trust in my dogs that they wont fight when left alone together. They all pass out on the couch and snuggle while we are gone. When we have a new dog or foster or dog sitter in the house, thats another story...


I envy you that! 

I guess as a multiple bully breed mom I have chosen this lifestyle, and it can be a tough, taxing one. But I do love all these big doofuses and I wouldn't have it any other way! 

One thing is for sure, though... I will never have this many dogs EVER AGAIN! Haha :shocked:


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## Cliffdog

How many do you have?

I wouldn't want more than one pibble myself, though I like two dogs. I like the Dobe/Pit combo. They just seem to mesh together really well. Both are excitable, both high energy (though most pits are more energetic than most dobes), both high-drive, and both high-fun.  Not to mention such awesome family dogs.


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## RawFedDogs

If all I read in this thread is true, it justifies breed specific legislation and pit bulls and pit bull type dogs should be banned. However, I don't think in the history of this board, I have seen so many misstatements in one thread by almost every participant. There is too many to even go into. All this dominance stuff and aggression stuff is hogwash. It's in the eye of the beholder. The dominance theory has been disproven. Almost all aggression is fear aggression. Dominance aggression really doesn't exist.

I do want to make one point. Almost every fight between dogs that live together is human caused, always unintentionally and the humans almost never know what caused them. I have owned multiple dogs for many years and have seen my share of fights. Funny thing is regardless of which dogs are fighting, they always happen in the presence of humans. ALMOST never do they occur when dogs are alone. My dogs were never confined when no one was home and we never saw any evidence of a fight while we were gone. It was always when we were home and usually in situations that were stressful to the dogs.

Before anyone feels the need to answer, I know occasionally two dogs will fight when home alone, but that is rare. The greatest majority of the time, you are there.


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## whiteleo

Most bull terrier breeders don't suggest leaving dogs unattended at home. I have three, 2 are rescues and 1 is fully socialized and the alpha female, they are left unattended at home while I'm at work on a regular basis, if I can't trust them together, then I can't trust them period.

The only time that I have had a major fight in the house is when my husband was at the firehall and I was late getting home from work, the dogs were hungary and the other female got too close to the kitchen when food was being served, that was all it took for "one hell of a mess". The male has never caused a problem, it is the females.


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## DaneMama

I've just given up on this thread to be honest. I still don't believe in true breed stereotypes. And I agree with you about the fight thing being owner/person induced the majority of the time. Our worst fight with the foster Dane happened over a toy that I wad throwing for them. I should have known better... :doh:


----------



## RachelsaurusRexU

You're right. Every long time pit bull owner, rescuer, trainer is wrong. Have you owned multiple pit bulls, Bill? They are not Labs, they are not Danes, they are not Shih Tzus and they absolutely do have a propensity for dog aggression, just as Border Collies have a propensity to herd. Do I think that warrants BSL? No, and I'm a little dumbfounded that you do. But it does warrant pitty owners understanding and being more responsible and not so careless with their dogs. 

Also, regardless of whether or not dog fights occur when humans are home... Seeing the type of damage that they can do/have done, I'd have to be insane to leave them to their devices with nobody around to manage, should things get out of hand. 

Glad that you have never had to separate your dogs, but quite frankly, I think it's totally stupid and irresponsible for multiple bully breed owners to pretend DA doesn't exist in this breed and have a lackadaisical attitude about their dogs. THAT is what causes BSL. 

Cliffdog, I have five dogs. They're not all pitties, but they're all bully breed type dogs.


----------



## whiteleo

But they also said I couldn't have cats around either, and I have 2. They are still alive!


----------



## DaneMama

I just want to make it clear that I dont support BSL in any way, shape or form. I still wholeheartedly believe that dogs are first and foremost individuals that may or may not conform to their breed predispositions.


----------



## Cliffdog

I absolutely positively agree, Danemama, all dogs are definitely individuals and anyone who's had more than one would agree. But on the whole, the breed standard is just that- standard. DA is as common in pit bulls as pointing is in German Shorthaired Pointers. To say that every single pit ever born was/is/will be dog aggressive is a foolhardy statement, but many, if not most, have the propensity to be so. It's just a part of who they are, and a failure to accept that is a failure to understand the breed.

Rachel: Lucky! I wish I had the time and energy to care for five bullies. They are just my favorite creature on the face of the earth. I wish I could take them all.


----------



## RawFedDogs

RachelsaurusRexU said:


> You're right. Every long time pit bull owner, rescuer, trainer is wrong. Have you owned multiple pit bulls, Bill?


I was a professional dog trainer for 15 years. I worked with many pit bulls and "pit bull types". I saw no more DA in them than any other breed. Doesn't mean I didn't see in in pittys but at no greater rate than other breeds. What I found is that the greatest percentage of DA cases was unintentionally and ignorantly caused by the owner. By the term "ignorantly" I don't mean the owners were stupid, they just didn't realize they were causing their dog's DA.



> They are not Labs, they are not Danes, they are not Shih Tzus and they absolutely do have a propensity for dog aggression, just as Border Collies have a propensity to herd. Do I think that warrants BSL?


If what you say about the pit bull types is true, yes, I definately believe they should be banned. I just don't believe what you say. 15 years of training them and working with them tells me you are wrong. If yours are all DA, you are doing something wrong.



> Also, regardless of whether or not dog fights occur when humans are home... Seeing the type of damage that they can do/have done, I'd have to be insane to leave them to their devices with nobody around to manage, should things get out of hand.


If you have created DA dogs, then you are correct. If they are normal bullies, then I would have no problems leaving them alone. 



> Glad that you have never had to separate your dogs, but quite frankly, I think it's totally stupid and irresponsible for multiple bully breed owners to pretend DA doesn't exist in this breed and have a lackadaisical attitude about their dogs. THAT is what causes BSL.


You misunderstood what I said. I said that I never saw evidence that they had fought when no one was home. There were 4 or 5 fights with I was home and one when my wife was home. I had to prize one of my Danes mouth open so I could pull one of my Golden's head out of her mouth one time.


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## whiteleo

I also do not suppoert BSL and I work with rescue for my club. Every dog is an individual and should be treated as such.

I support yours and others need to seperate and "lock up" your dogs while you are away as a way to protect them from each other, however, I will not own dogs that I need to do this with so they either get along or get going. And so far, beside the food issue we have not had any problems beside the little snarls that go along with everyday dog happenings.

I had gotten the zapstick as a result of the "big fight" the girls had and haven't had to use it, it was reccommended by my swim therapy instructor who breeds "bull mastiffs"

I will say that I am probably one of the most "responsible " dog owners around, and I really don't think you can call me irresponsible without knowing me or my dogs.


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## Cliffdog

I'm sorry, but pit bulls absolutely have a high propensity for dog aggression. Raised right, they are one of the least human aggressive breeds you could ever come across, but DA is absolutely a breed trait.

I beg of you, go to any weight pull, ADBA show, SCH event, ring sport, etc, and ask every APBT handler there: "What is the number one rule of owning an APBT?" Without a doubt, and because I know from actually _doing_ this, 90% of them will give you the same answer: "Never trust a pit bull not to fight."

Here are some good places to read up.
Aggression « Happy Pit Bull
The Pitbull and Dog Aggression
Pit Bull Temperament ("Dog-sensitivity and high prey drive should not be viewed as a 
fault, although excessive, uncontrollable aggression is neither desired nor 
correct. Aggression towards humans should be viewed as a serious fault.")
Pit Bull Rescue Central
Pet Pit Bull - Breed Information
Pit Bull Breed Profile

Let it be known; I am posting the following site because it contains VERY good information, almost everything in it is true down to the T. Diane Jessup is very well respected in the sporting world of APBTs, has bred many great dogs and, having been in the breed for 40+ years, knows the breed better than almost anyone living today. That said, I do not like her. She is a liar and a hypocrite in my opinion. She has put down many dogs in her day and occasionally even buys pit bulls from backyard breeders. So do not consider my approval of her site as an endorsement of the woman herself.
Official Pit Bull Site of Diane Jessup


----------



## RawFedDogs

Cliffdog said:


> I'm sorry, but pit bulls absolutely have a high propensity for dog aggression. Raised right, they are one of the least human aggressive breeds you could ever come across, but DA is absolutely a breed trait.


Cliff, do you not realize that you are making an argument FOR BSL??? If what you say is true, these dogs should not be allowed to exist. If they do exist they should be regulated the same as wild animals such as tigers and should not be allowed in public.


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## cast71

I agree with RFD. I do have a question though. You say dominance theory has been disproved. I'm guessing i'm getting dominance confused with pack order. Do you believe in pack order? That is what I meant when I said dominance. I probablly am using the wrong word. I really don't believe that dogs were programmed for DA through dna. It was taught to them specifically through there breeder or owner either purposely or by accident. The only things dna contributed to was there physical characteristics. All the fights I experienced so far were from pack order challenges.


----------



## RawFedDogs

cast71 said:


> I agree with RFD. I do have a question though. You say dominance theory has been disproved. I'm guessing i'm getting dominance confused with pack order. Do you believe in pack order?


Yes, but not in the same way you are talking about. A wild wolf pack is made up of Daddy (alpha male) and Mama (alpha female) and their offspring. The pack order is based pretty closely on the age of the offspring much as it is in a human family. This order is also fluid depending on the situation. Some will be higher in certain situations and others higher in other situations depending on their talents and abilities. There is rarely a fight over pack order. Its just not that important to them, also as in a human family.


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## kevin bradley

I hope RAW is right on this. I trust his opinion. 

but the entire post has made me more confused than ever. Its sad, I've always wanted a Pit.... but honestly, if any of this is true, I just couldn't put my others in this type of environment. As much as I'd like to say that I could do everything right 100% of the time, crating and separating...keeping them apart...what kind of life is that? So I'm on pins and needles every day, walking on eggshells, hoping I don't have a catastrophe? 

Tough subject. Real tough.


----------



## kevin bradley

RawFedDogs said:


> Yes, but not in the same way you are talking about. A wild wolf pack is made up of Daddy (alpha male) and Mama (alpha female) and their offspring. The pack order is based pretty closely on the age of the offspring much as it is in a human family. This order is also fluid depending on the situation. Some will be higher in certain situations and others higher in other situations depending on their talents and abilities. There is rarely a fight over pack order. Its just not that important to them, also as in a human family.


thats what I've observed in my house...with 2 males and one little female...

I've NEVER seen ANYTHING to indicate that there is some pecking order. Nothing. Ever. I've seen them snap at each other from time to time...but this stuff about some order or numbering system of who's in charge, I've just never seen it. 

Always makes me scratch my head when I watch that Caesar character ranting about this stuff. Thought I just had an odd group.


----------



## apollobull

I have a male intact pitbull who i raised from 8 weeks till now(2). He was raised around other dogs, and socialized with other dogs. He has never even shown an once of dog aggression. He is left with my grandfathers dog alone, and he is a pitbull too. There is no dominance or aggression issues at all. I am the dominant figure, so there is no room for them. They play together, and eat in the same area. I got my boy from a breeder, and he has had multiple males living in the house with no issues. Only issue he has had were with his 2 dominant males. Dog aggression and dominance are two different things. The two males get along with everyone else except each other. I will admit that some pitbull can be more predisposed to dog aggression, than others. Some lines are more drivey and game type, while others are more for show.


----------



## apollobull

While walking my dog, i have had multiple off leash dogs run up to my boy, specially smaller dogs. The owners about have a heart attack when they see there dogs run up to my boy. He just sniffs, wags his tail, and tries to play with them. My boy has a great temperament and people are so surprised when they meet him.

My point is, never generalize or believe stereotypes. Not all pit bulls are of the same mold. Environmental factors play a big role in a dogs development.


----------



## RachelsaurusRexU

http://www.bulliebuddieslv.org/myths_and_facts.pdf

Pit Bull Temperament

Dog Aggression in Pit Bulls | PitBulls


----------



## RachelsaurusRexU

I don't claim that EVERY pit bull is going to fight or display DA, but the FACT remains that it's very common in the breed. 

Should we ban sighthounds for their potential prey drive, too? Give me a break.


----------



## DaneMama

We definitely have "alpha" dogs in our house....ALL five of them at different times and in different contexts. The trend I see is that one or two of our girls are almost always "in charge" with Bailey being most "alpha" out of them all. She had a litter of pups about 2.5 years ago....I wonder if that has anything to do with her status in our pack?


----------



## Cliffdog

Admitting that because they are aggressive with *dogs*, not humans, and should only be owned by responsible people who are able to control their urges with socialization and training and separation when alone, is arguing for BSL? No, it is arguing for owners to be responsible and safe. I would think we would want that for any breed.


----------



## kevin bradley

RachelsaurusRexU said:


> http://www.bulliebuddieslv.org/myths_and_facts.pdf
> 
> Pit Bull Temperament
> 
> Dog Aggression in Pit Bulls | PitBulls



Rachel, I just read thru the 1st link. Interesting. 

I'm confused and I'm not sure I'll find an answer completely...but my issue is this.... Evolution is slow. Damn Slow. REAL SLOW. It takes 100's if not 1000's of years for behavioral traits to take hold. Isn't Pit Bull fighting relatively NEW? From what I've read, Pits were initially bred for taking down large animals. Only recently(relatively) has Pit fighting been popular. 

So when people frequently say..."they've been bred to fight"... I'm not certain that holds water. Unless they've been bred to fight for the last 1000 years, I'm skeptical.


----------



## kevin bradley

Cliffdog said:


> Admitting that because they are aggressive with *dogs*, not humans, and should only be owned by responsible people who are able to control their urges with socialization and training and separation when alone, is arguing for BSL? No, it is arguing for owners to be responsible and safe. I would think we would want that for any breed.




Cliff,

The issue I think is this...

The aspects of Pit ownership that I'm hearing is that...

The owner must never be surprised if their Pit hauls off and attacks any other Dogs in the house, the owner must carry sticks to pry their locked jaws off the other Dogs in the event of a fight, if a fight DOES ensue... their Pit will fight to the death and not stop because its part of their breed, and last but not least... you can NEVER leave your Pit Bull alone with other Dogs when you are gone.

I think where Raw is going with this... is the fact that if you explain the above necessary "precautions" to the average person, they are going to think you are out of your mind to own one. If the breed REALLY carries the above precautions, most people are going to opt for legislation. Whether we love the breed for its positives or not. 

IF you believe the above. I'm just sayin'


----------



## RachelsaurusRexU

kevin bradley said:


> Rachel, I just read thru the 1st link. Interesting.
> 
> I'm confused and I'm not sure I'll find an answer completely...but my issue is this.... Evolution is slow. Damn Slow. REAL SLOW. It takes 100's if not 1000's of years for behavioral traits to take hold. Isn't Pit Bull fighting relatively NEW? From what I've read, Pits were initially bred for taking down large animals. Only recently(relatively) has Pit fighting been popular.
> 
> So when people frequently say..."they've been bred to fight"... I'm not certain that holds water. Unless they've been bred to fight for the last 1000 years, I'm skeptical.


The are documented accounts of dog fighting occurring as early as the 1750s. It was very common in the 1800s. 

Breeding for dog aggression is achieved through selective breeding. Evolution has nothing to do with it.


----------



## RawFedDogs

RachelsaurusRexU said:


> I don't claim that EVERY pit bull is going to fight or display DA, but the FACT remains that it's very common in the breed.
> 
> Should we ban sighthounds for their potential prey drive, too? Give me a break.


If your statement is true, they should absolutely without a doubt be banned. You guys have changed my mind on this issue.


----------



## RachelsaurusRexU

kevin bradley said:


> Cliff,
> 
> The issue I think is this...
> 
> The aspects of Pit ownership that I'm hearing is that...
> 
> The owner must never be surprised if their Pit hauls off and attacks any other Dogs in the house, the owner must carry sticks to pry their locked jaws off the other Dogs in the event of a fight, if a fight DOES ensue... their Pit will fight to the death and not stop because its part of their breed, and last but not least... you can NEVER leave your Pit Bull alone with other Dogs when you are gone.
> 
> I think where Raw is going with this... is the fact that if you explain the above necessary "precautions" to the average person, they are going to think you are out of your mind to own one. If the breed REALLY carries the above precautions, most people are going to opt for legislation. Whether we love the breed for its positives or not.
> 
> IF you believe the above. I'm just sayin'


This is sensationalism. That's exactly what the media does. 

The long and short of it is, MANY pit bulls have a tendency to be dog aggressive or reactive. Because of this, many pb owners feel that it is best to err on the side of caution and separate their dogs when they are unable to supervise interaction. And many feel that having some sort of tool in the house to break up a dog fight, such as a break stick, is very valuable in the situation that a fight occurs since pitties are notorious for not wanting to let go.


----------



## whiteleo

Yes, but the ABPT was not around then am I correct?:


----------



## Cliffdog

What must be understood is this:
-DA is a breed trait. Dog sensitivity is to be expected.
-A well-bred, well-socialized, well-trained pit bull should never lunge or initiate a fight.
-A pibble can take a small, barely-noticable trigger as instigation to fight.
-A well-bred, well-socialized, well-trained pit bull would lay its life down for its owner.
-A well-bred, well-socialized, well-trained pit bull would never, under any circumstance, harm a human. It is a breed trait to be EXTREMELY people oriented, and not very dog/animal-oriented.

Pit bulls are a very old breed. Not many breeds can say that they have written pedigrees going back to the 1700s, the American Pit Bull Terrier can.

Originally, the pit bull was bred for hoghunting. Their use turned in time to the vicious sport of bull baiting. It is at the point in the breed's earlier age when bull baiting was made illegal that man turned dog against dog. For years, they have been bred almost exclusively to fight one another. Dog aggression was absolutely _the_ most sought-after trait of the breed. Dogs not fit to fight were often culled. Only game-tested dogs, as in successful fighting dogs, bred. This leaves us with the breed today. They have a tendency toward dog aggression. Big deal! Why should that condemn the breed? They are not a danger to humans unless someone makes them that way. And, when controlled, they are not a danger to dogs.

ETA: Yes, pit bulls were around then. They didn't often call them pit bulls/American Pit Bull Terriers then. They were just referred to as 'bulldogs' in most cases. But they were the dog we know of as the American Pit Bull Terrier today.


----------



## RachelsaurusRexU

RawFedDogs said:


> If your statement is true, they should absolutely without a doubt be banned. You guys have changed my mind on this issue.


----------



## whiteleo

Gee, that sounds oddly familiar,kinda like the history of the "Bull Terrier"


----------



## Cliffdog

That's because the breeds are very closely related. Looking through historical journals and photographs, there have been many mixtures of the two breeds, especially during the times of bull baiting. There is some evidence that the APBT helped form the bull terrier of today.


----------



## RachelsaurusRexU

I'm not sure I understand why there's such a debate over this. 

Bottom line, if you have multiple pitties or a pitty in a multiple dog household, knowing the breed's history and serious potential for dog aggression/reactivity, it would be in your best interest to weigh the pros and cons of leaving your dogs loose together unsupervised. If you feel comfortable doing so, good for you. But know that it's extremely common in the pit bull community for owners to err on the side of safety and separate their dogs, for good reason. They didn't just randomly decide to do so for the hell of it. 

This conversation is getting pretty ridiculous. If you choose to ignore the facts, I hope you never own pit bulls. 

ETA: I don't mean you, Kevin. I mean anyone who chooses to ignore this stuff.


----------



## whiteleo

Pit bulls and Bull terriers are in no way related what soever!


----------



## kevin bradley

RachelsaurusRexU said:


> This is sensationalism. That's exactly what the media does.
> 
> The long and short of it is, MANY pit bulls have a tendency to be dog aggressive or reactive. Because of this, many pb owners feel that it is best to err on the side of caution and separate their dogs when they are unable to supervise interaction. And many feel that having some sort of tool in the house to break up a dog fight, such as a break stick, is very valuable in the situation that a fight occurs since pitties are notorious for not wanting to let go.



Rachel,

Every part of that was essentially taken from statements made in this thread...

Believe me, I have no CLUE what to believe at this point in the discussion. Seriously, I'm more lost than when I started. 

I will say this... many have made me pause and think whether or not I'm ready to own a Pit. And it makes me sad quite honestly.


----------



## whiteleo

The Bull terrier was established in England between a cross of a white cavalier and a bull dog, there is some discussion that there is a possibility of dalmation, but not ever have in all my history reading or conversations with members who have been in the breed for over 30 years have any discussion of pit bulls, they all say "no relation to pits at all".


----------



## Cliffdog

Don't think so? Look at these pictures.
















Looks like an APBT right? No, it's a bull terrier from the late 1800s, before the sloping head was bred into the dog. They were interbred with pit bulls so often that pit bull/bullterrier mixes were eventually (after much fighting) allowed into the bullterrier registry.


----------



## kevin bradley

RachelsaurusRexU said:


> I'm not sure I understand why there's such a debate over this.
> 
> Bottom line, if you have multiple pitties or a pitty in a multiple dog household, knowing the breed's history and serious potential for dog aggression/reactivity, it would be in your best interest to weigh the pros and cons of leaving your dogs loose together unsupervised. If you feel comfortable doing so, good for you. But know that it's extremely common in the pit bull community for owners to err on the side of safety and separate their dogs, for good reason. They didn't just randomly decide to do so for the hell of it.
> 
> This conversation is getting pretty ridiculous. If you choose to ignore the facts, I hope you never own pit bulls.
> 
> ETA: I don't mean you, Kevin. I mean anyone who chooses to ignore this stuff.



Rachel, with due respect, I don't think this thread is ridiculous... but I do think its very, very confusing.

I want to be clear... I love Pits. I love their demeanor towards people... they are wonderful Dogs-any that I've been around. 

But I have other Dogs and if what many of you have said is true, it would scare the hell out of me to have one around my other Dogs.


----------



## whiteleo

Guess I'll have to send this thread to my history checker of the club!


----------



## Cliffdog

kevin bradley said:


> Rachel,
> 
> Every part of that was essentially taken from statements made in this thread...
> 
> Believe me, I have no CLUE what to believe at this point in the discussion. Seriously, I'm more lost than when I started.
> 
> I will say this... many have made me pause and think whether or not I'm ready to own a Pit. And it makes me sad quite honestly.


I think that's a good thing.

When adopting a breed like the APBT, you _should_ have to stop and think about whether or not you are ready. Because if they get into a fight and someone gets hurt, it won't be the dog's fault. You have to be able to manage their high drive and propensity for DA. You also have to realize that any mistakes you make affect the entire breed. Your dog gets out and kills another dog, that isn't the dog's fault, it's your fault. And who'll pay? The APBT breed as a whole. One more "Vicious Pit Bull Attack!" headline. You wouldn't expect a hunting dog not to chase a squirrel, why would you put a pit bull in such a risky situation?

If you aren't prepared to deal with what it means to own a pit bull, then there are plenty of dogs who would better fit your lifestyle.


----------



## Cliffdog

> *MYTH:* "Bull terriers" are pit bulls.
> 
> *Fact:*The "bull terrier", that humorous white dog (though they come other colors) with the ****** eyes and deformed muzzle, is often confusedly called a "pit bull", and yet he carries only a portion of pit bull blood. The bull terrier was developed to perfection by a Birmingham man named James Hinks. In the words of his son, James Hinks II, his father "My father owned dogs from the bravest of the old breeds and had experimented in their breeding. He had also crossed in the white English terrier and the Dalmatian. In this way he produced a pure-white dog, which he named the bull terrier." The idea, again, was predominantly to develop a "stylish" dog, bred for its good looks. The original bullterrier cross looked much like a thinly built pit bulldog, as the characteristic "down-face" wasn't developed until a specific stud dog imparted that characteristic in the breed and it became the fad. Several years after the development of the white show bull terrier, pure pit bulldogs were bred back into some lines, for added mental and physical hardiness. The breeders of the pure white dogs, despite their increasing issues with deafness and other degenerate problems, fought tooth and nail to keep the pit bull-bull terrier crosses from the registry. These crosses were, however, admitted after a struggle.


Official Pit Bull Site of Diane Jessup

I could be wrong. I'm an APBT person. I have never researched, desired, or even seen in person, a bull terrier.


----------



## RachelsaurusRexU

kevin bradley said:


> Rachel, with due respect, I don't think this thread is ridiculous... but I do think its very, very confusing.
> 
> I want to be clear... I love Pits. I love their demeanor towards people... they are wonderful Dogs-any that I've been around.
> 
> But I have other Dogs and if what many of you have said is true, it would scare the hell out of me to have one around my other Dogs.


I don't think you should be scared to have a pit bull around your dogs. I'm not saying that every pitty is going to want to go at the throat of every other dog. I'm not saying that AT ALL. Some of my dogs get along beautifully together (and some not so much). Pick a dog who's compatible, get to know the dog well, train, socialize, exercise...these are all things that help to prevent DA in the home. BUT all of that doesn't guarantee a squabble won't ever occur. And if one is going to occur, I'd much rather be there to break it up than to come home to a bloodbath. Maybe it won't ever occur. I'm sure there are plenty of multi-pb households that never have fights. I just choose to be safe rather than sorry. That's all.


----------



## RawFedDogs

RachelsaurusRexU said:


> Bottom line, if you have multiple pitties or a pitty in a multiple dog household, knowing the breed's history and serious potential for dog aggression/reactivity, it would be in your best interest to weigh the pros and cons of leaving your dogs loose together unsupervised.


Or perhaps it would be in everyone's best interest not to own one. Seriously, why in the world would someone want to own a dog who is so aggressive he can't be left alone with other dogs in the household?



> If you choose to ignore the facts, I hope you never own pit bulls.


I'm not ignoring the facts and I can assure you I will never own a put bull and will stay clear of them when I see them in public if I have one of my dogs with me.


----------



## RachelsaurusRexU

Bill, if you're attempting to get me riled up...good luck.


----------



## nikkiluvsu15

RawFedDogs said:


> Or perhaps it would be in everyone's best interest not to own one. Seriously, why in the world would someone want to own a dog who is so aggressive he can't be left alone with other dogs in the household?


Maybe you should just not own one.

All I know is that responsible APBT owners should know some of the history of this breed and that a fight _could_ happen (not that it WILL happen) and take precautions.

And because a dog is DA means that can't live? Bull. Just take a look at the UKC standard for the APBT - I can say that 99% of what is said in this part is true. I'll bold some parts too (any maybe enlarge some of the text) :wink:



> The essential characteristics of the American Pit Bull Terrier are *strength*, *confidence*, and *zest for life*. This breed is *eager to please* and *brimming over with enthusiasm*. APBTs make *excellent family companions* and have always been noted for *their love of children*. Because most APBTs exhibit *some level of dog aggression* and because of its *powerful physique*, the APBT requires an owner who will *carefully socialize* and *obedience train* the dog. The breed’s natural agility makes it one of the most capable canine climbers so good fencing is a must for this breed. The APBT is *not the best choice for a guard dog *since they are *extremely friendly, even with strangers*. *Aggressive behavior toward humans is uncharacteristic of the breed and highly undesirable.* This breed does very well in performance events because of its *high level of intelligence* and its *willingness to work*.


----------



## Cliffdog

Indeed. A pit bull's ideal home is one in the hands of a responsible owner who knows the facts and is willing to take care of the dog like it needs to be. A dog aggressive APBT is not a bad dog. A dog aggressive APBT is not a dog undeserving of a home. A dog aggressive APBT will not redirect his aggression to humans. A dog aggressive APBT deserves as much life as any other dog. The fact that _we humans_ bred them to be dog aggressive is just a part of what they are, and is no fault of their own.

I suggest you don't get a pit bull if you can't handle what it takes to keep them safe and happy.


----------



## whiteleo

Perhaps the true issue is that breeders need to find a way to change the DA like the way they pretty much bred it out of the Bull terrier, their predisposition that was bred into them to fight is pretty much gone.


----------



## Cliffdog

Certainly, ethical APBT breeders now do not encourage the breeding of overly-DA dogs. Still, a reasonable level of dog reactivity is a part of the breed expectation and as APBTs continue to be a working dog, changing their temperament would be detrimental to the breed as a whole. A watered-down version of the APBT, the American Staffordshire Terrier, has much less issue in the regard of DA, and those who are not able to handle the power, energy, and tenacity of the APBT should look into the AmStaff breed.

Owning an AmStaff certainly requires less sacrifice on the part of the owner.


----------



## DaneMama

I think the true issue here is clear. 

Rescued APBTs that have sketchy pasts are the ones that the most caution should be uses and the whole point of keeping dogs segregated and under extreme control. 

APBTs that are from ideal bloodlines, ethical breeders and are raised with the upmost socialization, training and obedience are the dogs that don't fall into the category of untrustworthy. They are like any other dog out there.

And from all the behavior and training books I've read so far, DA in ANY FORM is a behavioral issue and NOT a personality trait. While APBTs may be predisposed, that doesn't mean that their DA isnt a behavior problem that needs to be addressed and not just put up with. 

Either way this thread is getting no where :deadhorse: :closed_2:


----------



## whiteleo

Well, then they should be more particular who they sell their puppies to. The pit is one of the most overly sold/bred dogs in the U.S.


----------



## kevin bradley

danemama08 said:


> I think the true issue here is clear.
> 
> Rescued APBTs that have sketchy pasts are the ones that the most caution should be uses and the whole point of keeping dogs segregated and under extreme control.
> 
> APBTs that are from ideal bloodlines, ethical breeders and are raised with the upmost socialization, training and obedience are the dogs that don't fall into the category of untrustworthy. They are like any other dog out there.
> 
> And from all the behavior and training books I've read so far, DA in ANY FORM is a behavioral issue and NOT a personality trait. While APBTs may be predisposed, that doesn't mean that their DA isnt a behavior problem that needs to be addressed and not just put up with.
> 
> Either way this thread is getting no where :deadhorse: :closed_2:




Nat, I did enjoy the thread. I'm not sure where we got in terms of a conclusive agreement...

But it was definitely an interesting discussion.


----------



## RachelsaurusRexU

danemama08 said:


> I think the true issue here is clear.
> 
> Rescued APBTs that have sketchy pasts are the ones that the most caution should be uses and the whole point of keeping dogs segregated and under extreme control.
> 
> APBTs that are from ideal bloodlines, ethical breeders and are raised with the upmost socialization, training and obedience are the dogs that don't fall into the category of untrustworthy. They are like any other dog out there.
> 
> And from all the behavior and training books I've read so far, DA in ANY FORM is a behavioral issue and NOT a personality trait. While APBTs may be predisposed, that doesn't mean that their DA isnt a behavior problem that needs to be addressed and not just put up with.
> 
> Either way this thread is getting no where :deadhorse: :closed_2:


I don't see how this is clear at all. Even the ethical breeders you mention are well aware of DA in the breed.


----------



## Cliffdog

I agree, Danemama, the thread really isn't going anywhere fast...

But the number one rule of the APBT stands. "Never trust a pit bull not to fight."



whiteleo said:


> Well, then they should be more particular who they sell their puppies to. The pit is one of the most overly sold/bred dogs in the U.S.


Yes, but most American Pit Bull Terriers do not come from ethical breeders. It is sad, but absolutely true. We dogmen have to admit that our breed has been thoroughly hijacked by know-nothing thugs and idiots who twist their loving, loyal nature and tendency toward DA into something that is no longer an American Pit Bull Terrier. The ethical breeder, who is ADBA registered, titles their dog in any of the various sports in which the breed excels, does not breed their dog for color/size/headsize, and does not breed their dog for sport, is very wary of the homes in which their dogs are put. Most will not adopt to someone who already has a dog, though some simply require a thorough home-check, dog introduction, and education on preventing/ending a fight.

Look on any site similar to Next Day Pets and look for Pit Bulls. What you see there represents the majority of "pit bull" breeders today. "XXXL BULLY! HUGE HEAD!" "BLUE PIT! MASSIVE!" "100LB BULLY LINE!" People are distorting the breed into something hideous, something that completely destroys the beautiful, proud, amazing, true Pit Bull Terrier.

Before we worry about how ethical breeders do their business, we need to worry about _un_ethical breeders.


----------



## kevin bradley

Frankly, I'd vote for the death penalty for anyone involved in a Dog Fighting ring...breeders, fighters, promoters, etc.... 

I'm not kidding, either.


----------



## DaneMama

Hopefully Micheal Vick would be at the top of the list 

In all honesty guys...this whole going back and forth is old. So let's just put this thread to rest :rip:


----------



## RachelsaurusRexU

Cliffdog said:


> I agree, Danemama, the thread really isn't going anywhere fast...
> 
> But the number one rule of the APBT stands. "Never trust a pit bull not to fight."
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, but most American Pit Bull Terriers do not come from ethical breeders. It is sad, but absolutely true. We dogmen have to admit that our breed has been thoroughly hijacked by know-nothing thugs and idiots who twist their loving, loyal nature and tendency toward DA into something that is no longer an American Pit Bull Terrier. The ethical breeder, who is ADBA registered, titles their dog in any of the various sports in which the breed excels, does not breed their dog for color/size/headsize, and does not breed their dog for sport, is very wary of the homes in which their dogs are put. Most will not adopt to someone who already has a dog, though some simply require a thorough home-check, dog introduction, and education on preventing/ending a fight.
> 
> Look on any site similar to Next Day Pets and look for Pit Bulls. What you see there represents the majority of "pit bull" breeders today. "XXXL BULLY! HUGE HEAD!" "BLUE PIT! MASSIVE!" "100LB BULLY LINE!" People are distorting the breed into something hideous, something that completely destroys the beautiful, proud, amazing, true Pit Bull Terrier.
> 
> Before we worry about how ethical breeders do their business, we need to worry about _un_ethical breeders.


I went to a local Pit Bull Awareness Day event recently. 90% of the people there had their rescued/adopted pitties with them. It was awesome! 

THEN there was this group of "breeders" with their dogs on spiked harnesses and chains. They were all American Bully type pits whose heads were almost the size of their bodies. Why is this suddenly so popular? I am so disgusted by what people are doing to these dogs...and to add insult to injury, they do it with no regard to temperament. 

Needless to say, all of the present rescues and adopters were PISSED by their presence. I think they totally missed the point of what that event stood for.


----------



## Cliffdog

kevin bradley said:


> Frankly, I'd vote for the death penalty for anyone involved in a Dog Fighting ring...breeders, fighters, promoters, etc....
> 
> I'm not kidding, either.


I agree!

Even within the breed, you see people who want game-tested dogs and lines. Disgusting. :tsk:


----------



## Cliffdog

RachelsaurusRexU said:


> I went to a local Pit Bull Awareness Day event recently. 90% of the people there had their rescued/adopted pitties with them. It was awesome!
> 
> THEN there was this group of "breeders" with their dogs on spiked harnesses and chains. They were all American Bully type pits whose heads were almost the size of their bodies. Why is this suddenly so popular? I am so disgusted by what people are doing to these dogs...and to add insult to injury, they do it with no regard to temperament.
> 
> Needless to say, all of the present rescues and adopters were PISSED by their presence. I think they totally missed the point of what that event stood for.


I know exactly what that's like.

I feel better about it now that AmBully is splitting off into its own breed. I encourage it. If people want a dog like that, get one, but don't taint the American Pit Bull Terrier by giving that dog its name!

I saw an AmBully at an APBT *conformation* show last year. I'm not kidding- the dog was literally laughed out of the ring.


----------



## RawFedDogs

RachelsaurusRexU said:


> Bill, if you're attempting to get me riled up...good luck.


who?? Me??? nahhh :smile:


----------



## RawFedDogs

Cliffdog said:


> Indeed. A pit bull's ideal home is one in the hands of a responsible owner who knows the facts and is willing to take care of the dog like it needs to be.


And exactly what percentage of pit bull owners fall into this category? I'd guess not a large percentage. And how do you make sure that these dogs don't fall into the hands of irresponsible owners? There's only one way.



> A dog aggressive APBT is not a bad dog.


Any dog aggressive dog is a bad dog regardless of the breed and shouldn't be allowed in public.



> A dog aggressive APBT is not a dog undeserving of a home.


I disagree.



> A dog aggressive APBT will not redirect his aggression to humans.


That is highly questionable and it doesn't matter if its true. I have seen many many stories and pictures on tv of people who were mauled by these pit bulls that won't redirect his aggression to humans.



> A dog aggressive APBT deserves as much life as any other dog.


I disagree



> The fact that _we humans_ bred them to be dog aggressive is just a part of what they are, and is no fault of their own.


I know of only one way to stop that.



> I suggest you don't get a pit bull if you can't handle what it takes to keep them safe and happy.


How do you keep pit bulls out of the hands of people who can't do that?? There is only one way I know of. Most states don't allow just anyone to own a lion or tiger or bear or any other dangerous animal.


----------



## RachelsaurusRexU

RawFedDogs said:


> who?? Me??? nahhh :smile:


SUCH an instigator! :yell:


----------



## RawFedDogs

Cliffdog said:


> Certainly, ethical APBT breeders now do not encourage the breeding of overly-DA dogs.


What percentage of these breeders are ethical? What do you do about the ones who aren't?



> Still, a reasonable level of dog reactivity is a part of the breed expectation and as APBTs continue to be a working dog, changing their temperament would be detrimental to the breed as a whole.


If thats true, then do away with the breed. Make them extinct.


----------



## RawFedDogs

whiteleo said:


> Well, then they should be more particular who they sell their puppies to. The pit is one of the most overly sold/bred dogs in the U.S.


You're right, they should be. But they aren't. (Most aren't)


----------



## RawFedDogs

Cliffdog said:


> But the number one rule of the APBT stands. "Never trust a pit bull not to fight."
> 
> Yes, but most American Pit Bull Terriers do not come from ethical breeders. It is sad, but absolutely true. We dogmen have to admit that our breed has been thoroughly hijacked by know-nothing thugs and idiots who twist their loving, loyal nature and tendency toward DA into something that is no longer an American Pit Bull Terrier.
> 
> Look on any site similar to Next Day Pets and look for Pit Bulls. What you see there represents the majority of "pit bull" breeders today. "XXXL BULLY! HUGE HEAD!" "BLUE PIT! MASSIVE!" "100LB BULLY LINE!" People are distorting the breed into something hideous, something that completely destroys the beautiful, proud, amazing, true Pit Bull Terrier.
> 
> Before we worry about how ethical breeders do their business, we need to worry about _un_ethical breeders.


Cliff, do you realize the more you post the more you are strengthening the case for banning the breed?


----------



## Cliffdog

I agree- UNETHICAL breeders should be banned. But surely that doesn't apply to pit bulls only? 

You're right on one thing. Overly reactive dogs should NOT be allowed in public. That doesn't mean they should be put to death- just kept away from other dogs. I know several amazing dogs who live on a crate/rotate schedule due to their DA.

Irresponsible care of pit bulls is abhorrent and should be controlled. But ADBA registered, titled, Canine Good Citizens should not be lumped in, and the results of this human error should not have to pay the price for our mistake. HA dogs should be PTS immediately, no ifs, ands, or buts, regardless of breed. But DA/HA is distinctly different and no well-bred APBT will present HA. It goes against their whole nature, and is in no way related to DA. HA pit bulls are poorly bred, poorly socialized, and poorly trained.


----------



## kevin bradley

Raw,

I understand you are trying to prove point here...

but the comments from others notwithstanding, I'd like to hear your opinion on the subject. Really.


----------



## Cliffdog

RawFedDogs said:


> Cliff, do you realize the more you post the more you are strengthening the case for banning the breed?


If you say so!


----------



## nikkiluvsu15

Raw - Natalie asked us to drop it. We all get that you want this breed to be gone. Just one more thing... I'm curious if one day you just so happen to have a DA dog (not a APBT per say), but just a DA dog.... say after you've had her/him for a couple years and he suddenly displays DA tendencies. Would you automatically take him/her to the vet to be PTS? or what?

Just curious because it seems like you think that all DA dogs don't deserve to live.


Other than that... I'm going to respect Natalie's wishes and I'm out eace:


----------



## Cliffdog

nikkiluvsu15 said:


> Other than that... I'm going to respect Natalie's wishes and I'm out eace:


Yeah, I agree.


----------



## apollobull

Just because a dog is DA does not mean he is a bad dog. IMO there is no such thing as a bad dog. It is the owner's responsibility to keep his/her dog out of trouble. If you know your dog is DA, dont put it in a bad situation. A dog is a reflection of it's owner. In my experience, pit bulls are a dominant breed but yet very sensitive. They need a firm handler who will be consistent. Bulldog breeds in general were bred to work some kind of animal. Some pitbulls are super animal aggressive, others are pussy cats. DA has NOTHING to do with HA. If your dog is DA, just dont put him the situation in which he could grab another dog. The best thing potential owners can do for these dogs is to educate them selves. We may not like there fighting history, but research it and try to understand it. The better we understand these dogs, the more prepared you will be as an owner. 

As far as the history of these dogs, it is not %100 exact. some believe pit bulls were created around dog fighting, while other believe dog fighting was created around pit bulls.


----------



## werecatrising

Wow- haven't checked this thread since yesterday and had a lot of catching up to do. 

I have always loved pit bulls. For that reason I have done a great deal of research on them. Of course I have heard all the "never trust a pit not to fight" stuff. I am aware that, as a breed, pits are more prone to be dog aggressive. I think it would be foolish to leave a pit, or any dog for that matter, alone with another dog until you REALLY knew them. Like I say in regards to so many topics, I go by what I see, not by what I read. I have tons of friends with multi pit households. I also know many clients with 3, even 4 in a home. All leave their dogs unsupervised while at work with no problems. These people know their dogs. They waited until they were socially mature to make the decision that they were not dog aggressive. 

I grew up with a boxer, a border collie mix, and a lab mix. The lab x and border collie mix fought often. I have had clients bring dogs in that were severely beaten up by housemates. The worst injuries I have seen inflected were by a lab and a standard poodle. So I have a hard time saying that a pit can never be trusted alone with another dog.

Cliff, do you have personal experience with multi pit households? I had the impression from other posts that you live with family, with only one dog. Thought your family members were against owning a pit bull. I think that the dog owners you are around may be the norm to you, but not necessarily the general dog owning population.


----------



## Cliffdog

I do not have experience with it myself. Yet, I have seen it with my own eyes at the clinic and at the shelter- "I never thought he would fight 'dogname', they got along so well!"- and half the members at Pit Bull Forums Index page have stories of spontaneous battles breaking out.

Most of them had seen plenty of people with no problems as well, and learned the hard way that the risk is just not worth taking. Why would you force your dog to be in a situation where he may or may not fail? I don't like the idea of flushing wounds or burying a dead dog, myself.


----------



## funshine

Sorry I skipped parts of the thread, but just wanted to bring in my experience that's not a lot though.

I have a "terrier" mix that looks like s slightly skinnier version of pit bull. She's supposedly part lab.

This dog was the sweetest dog in the rescue that day we went to look for a second dog with our first dog. No aggression against people or our other dog.
She's absolutely great with other dogs although probably has had very little (if any) human contact (during first 6 months). She doesn't know how to play with people (for example tug-of-war works only with dogs) but she loves to chase, get chased and do "boxer boxing" with any other dog. She's very submissive with "strong willed dogs" but also a great puppy-sitter keeping a puppy under control but taking all the biting at the same time.

We do have some "rough play" between our rescue and a pure lab but when playing escalates too much it's easy break with loud "Hey" or whatever.
Although our girls "fight" sometimes our "pit mix" is the guardian dog of her sister. The only time she seems truly aggressive is if our lab gets bugged by random aggressive dogs (lab is mostly working=retrieving when we are around other dogs 'cause this is her run time as well, she's not big on playing with other dogs than her sister) and she "has" to protect her family.

So the question is; would this protective "pit mix" suddenly hurt her own pack? She really relies on her canine companion since she still does much better with other dogs than people (even my husband and I).
I don't think so and sure do hope I'm right.
They are pretty equal in size, the "pit mix" however "better build for fights" so I'm not sure if she could even do it size wise.

Anyways, we wanted two dogs so that they wouldn't have to be alone during days and having them separately would just defeat the purpose. 
She is a mix but I rather believe the theory of every dog is an individual and don't want to think that she would be different if she would be 100% pit.

Just my two cents for pits and pit mixes :smile:


----------



## chikle134

kevin bradley said:


> Lisa's post on the Pit Puppy got me thinking about Pits in general...
> 
> First off, I love the breed. I think they are amazing and very loving Dogs. But I'm also not naive enough to not understand that they do present some different dynamics from other breeds.
> 
> I've read this frequently on all the Bully breeds... that you cannot leave them alone with your other Dogs because of their tendency to fight. Its more than just people talking about this at the watercooler... I know I've actually read it in one of the mags recently(I think the title was actually "Bully Breeds")...
> As I recall, they point blank said that you have to separate your Dogs while you are away or they could go at it. This surprises me.
> 
> Personally, I find it hard to believe that a Dog raised with other Dogs in a positive environment would just go to battle the minute I leave the house... heck, I would think they'd just sit by the window waiting for me to come home like they always do.
> 
> I'd like to hear some thoughts from Pit owners and how the interaction between other Dogs works. Does some of the fighting tendencies come out of nowhere? Do you really have to separate everyone each time you leave the house?
> 
> thanks


i dont believe that at all, i would understand if u leave two dogs together that arent around eachother much or werent raised together. and im not only talkin about bully breeds or pitbulls, all dogs. i have a pit bull and she was raised with a rotty, and ive left them in a crate together growing up and there were no fighting. they play fight and it sounds rough but its just rough play. they love eachother. those mags are just for entertainment and to give the breed a bad name which it already has. its all a bunch of bull i think. i love the breed and i disagree.


----------



## Cliffdog

I've said I wouldn't post here much, but I figure I would say one last thing. Then I'm out, lol.

I have seen so many APBTs that to count them would be unreasonable. And many of them displayed no visible DA. They played with other dogs and seemed happy to coexist. I would trust them 99.9% with other dogs.

But whether the risk is 1/10, 1/100, or 1/1,000,000, there's enough of a risk to take precautions. In the words of a Pit Bull Forum member: "An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of medicine."

In the end, almost every multiple-pit owner who has one of their dogs hurt or killed will say the same thing. "I never saw it coming."

A responsible owner does *not* take these risks.


----------



## xxshaelxx

Cliffdog said:


> I've said I wouldn't post here much, but I figure I would say one last thing. Then I'm out, lol.
> 
> *I have seen so many APBTs that to count them would be unreasonable. And many of them displayed no visible DA. They played with other dogs and seemed happy to coexist. I would trust them 99.9% with other dogs.*
> 
> But whether the risk is 1/10, 1/100, or 1/1,000,000, there's enough of a risk to take precautions. In the words of a Pit Bull Forum member: "An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of medicine."
> 
> In the end, almost every multiple-pit owner who has one of their dogs hurt or killed will say the same thing. "I never saw it coming."
> 
> A responsible owner does *not* take these risks.


That's what I've trying to say, but that's possible in every dog. There's always a .1% chance that they'll go at it, and yes, when two Pit Bulls go at it, it's probably going to be a 10x worse situation than with many, many, many other breeds because of the sheer force of the punch they pack. Yes, it's good to take precautions because there's always that "chance" that they could go at each others' throats, but what we've been trying to say the entire time is that even if they've been bred for dog aggression through the years, they're just as capable of being perfect pets around other animals as any other breed with the right socialization. They're dogs, though, and as dogs will do when there is human guidance present, they could end up in at least one or two fights through their lives. I've said, previously in this thread, that yes, it's always better to heir on the side of caution and that if you feel like you want to separate your dogs while they are unsupervised, then that's understandable, but what you make it sound like throughout this thread is that Pit Bulls are always going to be vicious, and they're going to have dog aggression no matter what. That, I just do not believe, is true.

Again, I don't think it's so much of dog aggression in these animals as it is the propensity of any dog to get into a fight, and it's in a Pit Bull's nature to "finish the job," so yes, if a Pit Bull gets into a fight, they're likely to do a lot of damage. But I wouldn't go as far as to say they're any different from any breed, personality wise, if bred, raised, and handled properly. In my opinion, the bad rap that these dogs get is mostly from the stupid idiots that get the breed just because it's the "cool" thing to do, and of course, those are the people that aren't going to give the dog the socialization it needs, and therefore the dog is going to develop those dog aggression tendencies. And those are also the people that are going to breed their dog because it's the "cool" thing to do, and if it's a mama, or the mama is the same way, then they're going to teach that to their pups. There's always going to be that risk. But there's also going to be that risk with any breed. Heck, I've met some pretty downright MEAN Siberian Huskies, and they're supposed to be all around friendly and outgoing with other dogs and people. So, all in all, I think the biggest thing to worry about if you want a Pit Bull, is to REALLY look good and hard for the right breeder, because it's so easy to buy from the WRONG people and get a dog that was raised to have some DA problems. But, again, I think it's all the peoples' fault, not the dog's.

It's just a sad, sad, SAD world out there for many, many, MANY dogs.

You know, perhaps BSL wouldn't be a bad idea *on some level*, but not something along the lines of banning the breed, but more leaning towards regulating what people own the breed, like requiring them to do things like socialization and puppy classes, and requiring people to do research on the breed before obtaining one, and also regulating the people allowed to breed them, like making sure the dogs and bitches are very sociable before they're allowed to breed. That way it keeps the wrong kind of people from owning this breed because it's the "cool" thing to do, because they want a dog that is aggressive. In my opinion, in the right hands, a Pit Bull is a fabulous dog.

Again, this is all MY opinion.


----------



## RawFedDogs

That's all well and good but how are you going to do that? How do you regulate potential dog owners? Are you going to give them a written test? How are you going to make them do right even if htey prove they know what right? How are you going to judge how socialble bitches are before they are allowed to breed and how are you going to keep them from breeding before its decided? I think if someone wants to own an aggressive dog because it's cool will do so anyway. I think most pit owners want to own an aggressive dog. THats why they have them. Its much easier and more practical just to ban the breed. It saves a lot of work and confusion.


----------



## 3Musketeers

Aggression may be linked to genetics (regardless of breed), so I won't argue that. I very well believe it could be.

As for APBTs, breeders should just start breeding the DA out of them, spay/neuter the ones that show more signs of DA, mixing a different, yet similar breed into some lines (they have done this with horses to "save the breed"). I am sure not every pit will show signs of DA, and if they show good signs of health, then perhaps they could prioritize these for breeding.

There are many ways they could go about this. There will always be bad breeders for every breed, which gives the good breeders more reason to improve the breed.


----------



## apollobull

If you've never owned a well bred and socialized pit bull, how can you truly have an EDUCATED opinion?? The media?? Please dont be ignorant and prejudice towards these dogs. They are the most misunderstood breed in the world. If they were banned, then irresponsible people would just choose another breed to victimize. Banning dogs will never solve anything. Today the pit bull, tomorrow its a different breed. Owners are responsible for their dog's actions. If you know your dog is da, protect him, and keep him from other dogs. All dog breeds can and do fight! Pit bulls seem to have more irresponsible owners, and so far, its the downfall of this magnificent breed.


----------



## RachelsaurusRexU

xxshaelxx said:


> That's what I've trying to say, but that's possible in every dog. There's always a .1% chance that they'll go at it, and yes, when two Pit Bulls go at it, it's probably going to be a 10x worse situation than with many, many, many other breeds because of the sheer force of the punch they pack. Yes, it's good to take precautions because there's always that "chance" that they could go at each others' throats, but what we've been trying to say the entire time is that even if they've been bred for dog aggression through the years, they're just as capable of being perfect pets around other animals as any other breed with the right socialization. They're dogs, though, and as dogs will do when there is human guidance present, they could end up in at least one or two fights through their lives. I've said, previously in this thread, that yes, it's always better to heir on the side of caution and that if you feel like you want to separate your dogs while they are unsupervised, then that's understandable, but what you make it sound like throughout this thread is that Pit Bulls are always going to be vicious, and they're going to have dog aggression no matter what. That, I just do not believe, is true.
> 
> Again, I don't think it's so much of dog aggression in these animals as it is the propensity of any dog to get into a fight, and it's in a Pit Bull's nature to "finish the job," so yes, if a Pit Bull gets into a fight, they're likely to do a lot of damage. But I wouldn't go as far as to say they're any different from any breed, personality wise, if bred, raised, and handled properly. In my opinion, the bad rap that these dogs get is mostly from the stupid idiots that get the breed just because it's the "cool" thing to do, and of course, those are the people that aren't going to give the dog the socialization it needs, and therefore the dog is going to develop those dog aggression tendencies. And those are also the people that are going to breed their dog because it's the "cool" thing to do, and if it's a mama, or the mama is the same way, then they're going to teach that to their pups. There's always going to be that risk. But there's also going to be that risk with any breed. Heck, I've met some pretty downright MEAN Siberian Huskies, and they're supposed to be all around friendly and outgoing with other dogs and people. So, all in all, I think the biggest thing to worry about if you want a Pit Bull, is to REALLY look good and hard for the right breeder, because it's so easy to buy from the WRONG people and get a dog that was raised to have some DA problems. But, again, I think it's all the peoples' fault, not the dog's.
> 
> It's just a sad, sad, SAD world out there for many, many, MANY dogs.
> 
> You know, perhaps BSL wouldn't be a bad idea *on some level*, but not something along the lines of banning the breed, but more leaning towards regulating what people own the breed, like requiring them to do things like socialization and puppy classes, and requiring people to do research on the breed before obtaining one, and also regulating the people allowed to breed them, like making sure the dogs and bitches are very sociable before they're allowed to breed. That way it keeps the wrong kind of people from owning this breed because it's the "cool" thing to do, because they want a dog that is aggressive. In my opinion, in the right hands, a Pit Bull is a fabulous dog.
> 
> Again, this is all MY opinion.


This is what we've been saying ALL ALONG! LOL. Except for the DA part...I still maintain that it's a very common trait of this breed. But none of us ever said that every pit bull is vicious and going to fight. A few of us actually specified multiple times that we DON'T feel that way whatsoever, we just think it's better to be safe than sorry!

As for RawFedDogs, he's either trying to prove a point, bait people into an argument, or both... As usual.


----------



## DaneMama

I think RFD's comments about BSL against APBTs is to prove a point AND be a total knucklehead.


----------



## RachelsaurusRexU

danemama08 said:


> I think RFD's comments about BSL against APBTs is to prove a point AND be a total knucklehead.


As usual! :tongue: lol


----------



## RawFedDogs

Hey!!! I was all against BSL and have worked with many pit bulls in my training career. They were all sweethearts. However after reading all the posts by experienced pit bull owners about how DA that pit bulls are, I have completely changed my mind. 

Added to that, I remember all the news stories about humans being mauled by pit bulls. I even saw a tape of a person being mauled on the news one time and yes it was definately a pit bull and the dog was trying to kill the person.

If they are THAT much DA, there is no place for them in this world OR if they are allowed to exist they should be treated like wild animals such as lions or tigers. They should be caged 24/7.

It seems that some of the so called experienced pit owners are bragging about how DA their dogs are. Thats very troubling. I also see posts that say IF the owners are responsible and IF the owners are knowledgable then they are safe to own. I just don't have faith that that large a percentage of pit owners are either one of those and that is scary also. The easy way to eliminate the problem is to ban the dogs. Then you don't have to worry about irresponsible owners and you don't have to worry about how knowledgable the owners are. You also don't have to worry about some caged dog escaping and killing someone or a child. Many of the maulings are by dogs who escaped their confinement.

Remember 3 days ago I was against BSL. You wonderful knowledgable people have changed my mind.


----------



## Cliffdog

At least you learned something :biggrin1:


----------



## RachelsaurusRexU

LOL.... Who the hell is "bragging" about how DA their dogs are? I love when people only take what they want to out of an entire 13 page conversation just for the sake of being snarky and "proving" some moot point :drama:

And just because you trained dogs for however many years doesn't make you the be all end all ever omniscient expert and everybody else an incompetent moron.


----------



## RawFedDogs

RachelsaurusRexU said:


> LOL.... Who the hell is "bragging" about how DA their dogs are?


Probably 25% of the posts in these 2 threads people are talking about how pit bulls are bred to be dog aggressive. How its in the breed description. How you have to be a very knowledgable owner to own a pit bull. How a pit bull will never back down from a fight. And there were some people bragging about their dogs aggressivness. Those themes are posted over and over in these 2 threads.



> And just because you trained dogs for however many years doesn't make you the be all end all ever omniscient expert and everybody else an incompetent moron.


I don't know what the hell you want from me. I said I had a belief from my training experience and after reading posts by all you experienced pit bull owners, you convinced me I was wrong. I WAS WRONG!!!! Pit bulls are a DA breed. You can't be too careful when you have a pit bull around other dogs. It's been drilled into my head over and over. You can't trust pit bulls around other dogs. You can't be sure they won't get in a fight with them. Y'all have said this over and over and over. I now believe you.

I also NOW believe the dogs should be banned. I don't want one living close to me. Yes, I agree its the owners and not the dogs but in general pit bull owners just by their very phyche(sp) are irresponsible. Just the fact that someone desires to own a dog aggressive dog makes that person an irresponsible owner.

And just to clear up one more point, yes, my 15 years of working closely with more than 1,000 dogs of most all breeds has made me more knowledgable and dog savy than 99.9% of the dog owners in the country. Doesn't mean I know everything. I just found out in the last 3 days that I was wrong about pit bulls.


----------



## RachelsaurusRexU

The question that Kevin asked was something along the lines of "I heard that it isn't safe to leave a pit bull unattended with other dogs. Is this true?" The vast majority of pit bull experts including rescues, ethical breeders, trainers (some who have been working with dogs as long or even longer than you...WOWSERS!) will tell you that it's best to separate your dogs when you aren't home, whether the dog has displayed some level of DA or not. 

I shared my honest experience in order to potentially prevent somebody from a similar situation. Never did I "brag" or hear anyone else brag about DA in their pit bull. Am I happy that DA *IS COMMON* (never once did I state that every or even most pit bulls on the face of the earth are aggressive with other dogs) in the breed? Absolutely not. But it does exist and IGNORING THAT *WOULD* BE IRRESPONSIBLE. 

If you truly believe in BSL, you're certainly entitled to your ignorant opinion. But I was badly attacked and injured by a Golden Retriever on the job a few years ago, so let's ban them also.


----------



## RachelsaurusRexU

RawFedDogs said:


> And just to clear up one more point, yes, my 15 years of working closely with more than 1,000 dogs of most all breeds has made me more knowledgable and dog savy than 99.9% of the dog owners in the country. Doesn't mean I know everything. I just found out in the last 3 days that I was wrong about pit bulls.


And this statement is a little extreme. There have got to be tens of thousands, if not hundreds of thousands of other people in the country who have worked with dogs for just as long, if not longer, than you have.


----------



## RawFedDogs

RachelsaurusRexU said:


> And this statement is a little extreme. There have got to be tens of thousands, if not hundreds of thousands of other people in the country who have worked with dogs for just as long, if not longer, than you have.


Maybe 10s of thousands, I doubt 100s of thousands. If it were 100's of thousands, mathmatically, my statement would still be correct. :smile: 

It also depends on how much research these long time trainers have done and how much continuing education they received. I know trainers who have been training for 30 years and still use 30 year old out of date methods.

Eventhough I haven't trained in 5 or 6 years, I still keep up with the latest advances in animal training. Besides dogs, I have also trained cats, rats, mice, birds of prey, and chickens. So I'm pretty much up on my training techniques and knowledge.


----------



## RachelsaurusRexU

I'm not sure what statistics or professions you're basing your "mathematics" on. Sounds like something you pulled out of thin air to me. 

Besides that, rats, cats, birds, dragons and unicorns aren't dogs, but nice plug for yourself. 

FIN.


----------



## kevin bradley

Raw,

I get what you attempted to do in this thread, but honestly, it caused a lot of confusion. 

I think some people actually believe you are for BSL. 

I could be wrong but I don't think you are. I think you were trying to prove that IF WHAT THEY WERE STATING HAD ANY TRUTH.....then you would be forced to believe in the bad conclusion.


----------



## CorgiPaws

I've watched this thread from afar, hesitant to get involved, but my face can not take one more palm slap as I sit quietly. 

I am a pit bull fan, always have been. I've always against BSL, entirely. I've done rallies, I've written people with political authority, I'm all for pitties. 
I own a doggy daycare, that until recently was the only one in the state that DID accept APBT's. We recently had to stop, due to our liability insurance. :frown: 

That being said, I've watched as fellow pit bull fans have posted page after page about how these dogs can not be trusted. How they shouldn't be left home alone together. How they need to be separated. How you may have to rotate which dog can be out of its crate. And, in all honesty, if I've ever had the shadow of a doubt that these dogs are fit for society- it's now. 

Any dog CAN snap. Any of them. Scuffles can happen in any breed. Never at my daycare have we had trouble with pits. Ever. In fact, MOST of our "issues" are in fact with Golden Retrievers- by far. I have worked with hundreds, dare I say thousands of dogs over the last few years, and rarely do I see issues with pits. In fact, it's almost always one of four breeds- Goldens, Cockers- Mini Schnauzers- and English Bulldogs. Go figure. 

I know plenty of people with pits, and none so paranoid about having a multiple dog. None have outside pens, and none have to crate one dog at a time. And, I'm sorry.... but what the hell kind of quality of life is that? If you have more than one dog, and they can't be together without having issues, how dare you have those dogs? I don't care what breed they are. 

If pits are SO DA that they have to have all these special requirements, and if they're SO DA that they have to be confined, and they're SO DA that you have to be especially educated and responsible to own one, then shoot, wouldn't wanting a DA animal make you irresponsible in the first place? Would that not ENTIRELY JUSTIFY every BSL that's ever been proposed against them? 

Hmm, I think the pit bull fans are fueling the pit bull ban at this point..... and that's a shame. :frown:



DISCLAIMER: I'm not for BSL, but if I honestly believed anything that y'all are saying I would be. Good thing, I just find the posts rather dramatic and ignorant, eh?


----------



## malluver1005

RawFedDogs said:


> How a pit bull will never back down from a fight.


I just have to say this cause it's been bugging me ever since I saw it. I haven't read all of the posts on this thread, so I don't know who originally made this statement. I will have to say that IMO, this is a false statement. I have been to maybe 2-3 dog parks, and I can't tell you how many pits have backed away from a potential fight. No not puppy pits, 2-4 year old adults. Now I know that pits trained to fight will not back down, but that is a different story...


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## RachelsaurusRexU

*AGAIN...*

Nobody here ever once said that every pit bull in the world is so DA that it can never be around other dogs. We simply said that some degree of DA/reactivity is pretty common in the breed....because it is. I am not understanding why this is so difficult to grasp.


----------



## malluver1005

RachelsaurusRexU said:


> *AGAIN...*
> 
> Nobody here ever once said that every pit bull in the world is DA. We simply said that it's pretty common in the breed....because it is.


I never said that pits are DA.


----------



## RachelsaurusRexU

malluver1005 said:


> I never said that pits are DA.


Okay.... ???


----------



## CorgiPaws

RachelsaurusRexU said:


> *AGAIN...*
> 
> Nobody here ever once said that every pit bull in the world is so DA that it can never be around other dogs. We simply said that some degree of DA/reactivity is pretty common in the breed....because it is. I am not understanding why this is so difficult to grasp.


And that certain precautions have to be taken owning a pit.
And that you shouldn't leave them alone together. 
And that owning a pit requires some kind of specially educated owner. 
And that pits never back down (false, false, false)
And that there's more of a risk with pits than other breeds. 
And that you have to have some kind of super duper confinement installed in your yard. 


You and Cliff undoubtedly painted one of the most awful pictures of pits I've seen in a while.


----------



## luvMyBRT

Hummm....I think I'll stick with my BRTs......
:twitch::twitch::twitch:


----------



## DaneMama

RachelsaurusRexU said:


> *AGAIN...*
> 
> Nobody here ever once said that every pit bull in the world is so DA that it can never be around other dogs. We simply said that some degree of DA/reactivity is pretty common in the breed....because it is. I am not understanding why this is so difficult to grasp.


I think both sides of the debate are having a hard time grasping what the other is trying to say. I personally think that Linsey put it perfectly. We all know RFD lacks tact sometimes....but I see the clarity in their arguement. 

What other breeds have it specifically written out in the breed standard that dog aggression and reactivity and the natural sense to fight? What other breeds is it common knowledge that you cannot trust to fight another dog? None that come to mind to me, besides bully breeds. So it's like the breed standard and all the ethical breeders are giving a warning as to the dangers of owning these breeds. To me that seems like backwards thinking and perpetuates the problems surrounding BSL. Not making it better...and if these dogs really do have the predisposition to have innate DA, I honestly don't know how I feel about that.


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## RachelsaurusRexU

Linsey, I'm not sure how much of that I actually said, but view the picture as you so choose.

And for the people that don't have personal experience owning pit bulls, which is clearly a majority of the people who have posted here... YOU need to understand that as a pit bull owner I have to be extra vigilant and take extra precautions with my dogs so as not to have any incidents that may add any sort of minuscule amount of slightly flammable fuel to the BSL fire. If my dog so much as steps foot off of my property without me on the other end of a leash, it's a HUGE DEAL. If my dogs gets into a fight and we have to make a trip to the vet and explain what happened, IT'S A HUGE DEAL. 

So you bet your butt I'm going to take precautions, and I'll surely suggest that other pit bull owners do the same.


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## CorgiPaws

Meh. In the end of this stupid thread.....



I'm still for the pits. 


:thumb:


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## kevin bradley

HALLEFREAKINGLLUJAH(did I spell that right?)

I waited 3 days for Linsey's post. 

THANK YOU LINSEY. 

Don't ever say a post is dead. With all due respect, Nat. We let this thing go and finally got what I wanted. thanks for not shutting it down.


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## DaneMama

It wasn't dead....just wasn't getting anywhere. And it wasnt to the point of shutting it down either. While both sides were heated everyone kept their cool...for the most part! Good job everyone!!!! :thumb:


----------



## Cliffdog

American Dog Breeders Association


> II. Overall Appearance (20 points)
> A. Conforming to breed type
> 1. Should look like an American Pit Bull Terrier from across the ring
> 2. Sturdy, three dimensional. Giving the impression of strength, not slight or frail.
> 3. Appears square, with heavy boned, solid front end with a light and springy back end.
> 4. Should look athletic, not bulky. Musculature should be smooth but defined.
> 5. Presentation of an adult dog should be of a lean, exercised animal showing a hint of rib and backbone (without hipbones
> showing) with muscles firm and defined. Clean, glossy coat with short trimmed nails. Presentation of dogs in the puppy
> classes should be of a well nourished puppy, showing no ribs, backbone or hips. Coat should be glossy with short, trimmed
> nails.
> B. Balance
> 1. Equal angulation of front and rear assembly - judged best at the trot.
> 2. Height to weight ratio - the tallest dog at a given weight
> 3. Head size in proportion to the body, with a neck long enough to have the head appear above the top of the back when head
> is in a normal upright position.
> C. Presentation
> 1. Dog is socialized , showing interest in things around him.
> *2. Although some degree of dog aggressiveness is characteristic of the breed, unruly behavior will detract from the judges ability to accurately judge an individual dogs conformation. *
> D. Health
> 1. The vitality of the dogs spirit, the gloss of the dogs coat and the sharpness of the dogs eye, will exude the healthfulness of
> the individual animal.
> 2. Colors or color patterns known to be genetically linked to health problems will be considered a serious fault . Major faults:
> merle color pattern, albinism(white dog with blue or pink eyes, pink nose, lips, no pigment present on pads, rims of eyes etc.)


What APBTs *are*:
-Dogs with an expected level of dog reactivity/aggression, which varies in intensity from very intense to not present at all;
-Dogs who can win a fight- regardless of who starts it;
-Dogs who need a certain amount of precaution taken due to their strength and tendencies;
-Capable of learning to ignore or even get along with other dogs

What APBTs *are not*:
-Human aggressive;
-Crazed dog-killing monsters;
-Impossible to handle or own;
-Bred to be dog-social

As has been said by people on both sides of the debate, ALL dogs can get into a fight. However, APBTs *A)* are known to have varying levels of dog reactivity; *B)* have the ability to do tremendous amounts of damage in a short span of time.

KNOWING this, it is extremely irresponsible to leave an APBT alone with another dog. *No matter how slight the risk, the risk is there, and to ignore it is to put your dog in harm's way.*

It isn't some big crazy equation that only super smart educated owners can understand, folks. Inside? Separate rooms. Outside? Get a kennel. When you're home, they can play. It's not much of an effort. Can't handle that? Get a hamster.


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## cprcheetah

I love most Pitties. We have a few who come play in our daycare regularly, and I LOVE them because they LOVE to play, and actually do. Yes there are some who can't handle it but there are some that can. We actually see other breeds who are 'naughtier' and cause more problems than Pitties (boxers & huskies for one...no offense anyone, they just seem to like to antagonize the other dogs to fight). We have a few pitties/staffs who come and stay with us a month at at time, and OMG I just love it when Rogue comes, she loves balls, and walks around with this HUGE ball in her mouth barking the whole time, it cracks me up. She loves it when you chase her, yep you chase her. We have several clients who show pits and they are the coolest dogs. Any breed when not raised right can have issues. Now I will say that if pits are involved in a fight, they don't hesitate to finish it, but that hasn't happened only 1x in 10 years of daycare and it was a lab who started it.

I will say that in daycare the dogs are always supervised, Pitties, heck boxers for that matter, sometimes have to be 'redirected' because of getting too intense for the other dogs.


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## RachelsaurusRexU

Some of mine love to play with other dogs as well! I've know plenty of pitties who are awesome with other dogs. 

It's just that when it comes down to dogs being left unsupervised in the home, I personally prefer to prevent disasters rather than chance them for very valid reasons.


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## Cliffdog

Exactly, Heather. They are great dogs. The whole BSL thing is stupid, but the thing is, they are tough dogs, and many of them are more dog reactive than your average pup. Let them play! Let them make as many doggy friends as they can handle, but supervise them, because escalation happens, and in a pittie, that means big trouble.


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## nikkiluvsu15

I know I said I was out, but I came back :redface:

I think almost all of us can agree that in the right hands Pits are some awesome dogs :biggrin: And that all dogs can display aggressive behavior - some breeds are just more prone to it than others.

Crate and rotate isn't a horrible thing - I know a reputable Rottweiler breeder that has to crate & rotate two of her girls because her one is DA. They both still has quality life, just those two don't get along very well. 

There is absolutely Pits that are very dog friendly and love playing - Rebel sure does!!! He has a blast playing with Harleigh and they are good friends! 

















Ain't he cute?









Believe me - I'm not saying these things because I am against the APBT, anything but that! I'm just trying to put out there what I've learned and I'm definitely not an expert. Rebel is the first APBT we've owned (& he's pretty much my brothers), but being around him and researching a lot about the breeds history has made me a little bit more knowledgable on this breed than before!

I think the point that most of us are trying to get say (or at least that I am) is exactly what the answer to the question: Don't Pit Bulls have to be trained to fight? on Bad Rap  

Certainly there are other breeds that can have the higher ability to become DA just as the APBT, but since these are the "bad" dogs right now, thats all that the media is focused on. I'm not sure if I made sense? lol

And just because I love looking at these pictures, I'll share the website.
Haynes Pit Bulls - A Vintage Photo History of the Pit Bull and its Ancestors

eta: I also like these from Bad Rap... if anyone wants to read them 

http://www.badrap.org/rescue/multidogs.html
http://www.badrap.org/rescue/breed.html
http://www.badrap.org/rescue/owning.html

there are probably others on there that you might find interesting as well - again if you want to read it


----------



## RachelsaurusRexU

nikkiluvsu15 said:


> I know I said I was out, but I came back :redface:
> 
> I think almost all of us can agree that in the right hands Pits are some awesome dogs :biggrin: And that all dogs can display aggressive behavior - some breeds are just more prone to it than others.
> 
> Crate and rotate isn't a horrible thing - I know a reputable Rottweiler breeder that has to crate & rotate two of her girls because her one is DA. They both still has quality life, just those two don't get along very well.
> 
> There is absolutely Pits that are very dog friendly and love playing - Rebel sure does!!! He has a blast playing with Harleigh and they are good friends!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ain't he cute?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Believe me - I'm not saying these things because I am against the APBT, anything but that! I'm just trying to put out there what I've learned and I'm definitely not an expert. Rebel is the first APBT we've owned (& he's pretty much my brothers), but being around him and researching a lot about the breeds history has made me a little bit more knowledgable on this breed than before!
> 
> I think the point that most of us are trying to get say (or at least that I am) is exactly what the answer to the question: Don't Pit Bulls have to be trained to fight? on Bad Rap
> 
> Certainly there are other breeds that can have the higher ability to become DA just as the APBT, but since these are the "bad" dogs right now, thats all that the media is focused on. I'm not sure if I made sense? lol
> 
> And just because I love looking at these pictures, I'll share the website.
> Haynes Pit Bulls - A Vintage Photo History of the Pit Bull and its Ancestors
> 
> eta: I also like these from Bad Rap... if anyone wants to read them
> 
> http://www.badrap.org/rescue/multidogs.html
> http://www.badrap.org/rescue/breed.html
> http://www.badrap.org/rescue/owning.html
> 
> there are probably others on there that you might find interesting as well - again if you want to read it


Yes! The multi-dog link explains it all very simply, so here's that one again http://www.badrap.org/rescue/multidogs.html


----------



## Cliffdog

nikkiluvsu15 said:


> I know I said I was out, but I came back :redface:
> 
> I think almost all of us can agree that in the right hands Pits are some awesome dogs :biggrin: And that all dogs can display aggressive behavior - some breeds are just more prone to it than others.
> 
> Crate and rotate isn't a horrible thing - I know a reputable Rottweiler breeder that has to crate & rotate two of her girls because her one is DA. They both still has quality life, just those two don't get along very well.
> 
> There is absolutely Pits that are very dog friendly and love playing - Rebel sure does!!! He has a blast playing with Harleigh and they are good friends!
> 
> Believe me - I'm not saying these things because I am against the APBT, anything but that! I'm just trying to put out there what I've learned and I'm definitely not an expert. Rebel is the first APBT we've owned (& he's pretty much my brothers), but being around him and researching a lot about the breeds history has made me a little bit more knowledgable on this breed than before!
> 
> I think the point that most of us are trying to get say (or at least that I am) is exactly what the answer to the question: Don't Pit Bulls have to be trained to fight? on Bad Rap
> 
> Certainly there are other breeds that can have the higher ability to become DA just as the APBT, but since these are the "bad" dogs right now, thats all that the media is focused on. I'm not sure if I made sense? lol
> 
> And just because I love looking at these pictures, I'll share the website.
> Haynes Pit Bulls - A Vintage Photo History of the Pit Bull and its Ancestors
> 
> eta: I also like these from Bad Rap... if anyone wants to read them
> 
> http://www.badrap.org/rescue/multidogs.html
> http://www.badrap.org/rescue/breed.html
> http://www.badrap.org/rescue/owning.html
> 
> there are probably others on there that you might find interesting as well - again if you want to read it


Thanks for posting the BadRap links! I love that site. :biggrin1:

ETA: I would just like to add, that even if my dogs weren't pit bulls, I would separate them before I left the home. As has been mentioned often, ANY dog can fight, and even if it's unlikely... well, I love my dogs too much to leave things up to chance.


----------



## monkeys23

I didn't read the whole thread because frankly I've seen this topic so much its kinda like beating a dead horse. I don't want to beat my head on my desk, so I'll contribute my two cents and call it good.

1. Not all dogs need doggie friends. Irregardless of breed!!! I own dogs (well one is a foster) of notoriously social breed mix backgrounds... I never ever leave them unsupervised with each other or any other animal/child. They are very friendly, but this is responsible dog ownership and I cannot ethically do any less for them.

2. Its stupid to expect a terrier/bulldog breed that specifically created for dog on dog combat and bullbaiting to want or need doggie friends.

3. A pit is a hole in the ground. 
The American Pit Bull Terrier is an amazing breed and I dearly hope I'm lucky enough to own one someday. American Pit Bull Terrier Network Pit Bull Encyclopedia A to Z about the APBT
The Staffordshire Bull Terrier is another amazing canine athelete I would adore owning.
I've met amazing American Staffordshire Terriers. I'm not a fan of the thicker build/heavier bone or UKC showline bulldogs in general though, just my personal taste. Overall great dogs. Wonderful family dogs.
There are some reputably bred American Bullys, usually "classic" style, (think big blue/red disasters... next EB in the making anyone?), but the conformational issues are so prolific and the "types" so all over the board I have a really hard time seeing the point in creating these poor things. The plethora of ignorant BYB's and people I wouldn't trust with a goldfish much less a dog are great at continuing to explode the population of badly bred dogs that are conformational and temperamental nightmares.
American Bulldog: different breed. Closer to molloser and boxer. Great working dogs.

4. Dog aggression and prey drive do not equal aggression toward humans! Dogs aren't stuffed animals yo. They are carnivores that fight for food and want to catch/eat prey. 

5. You can't save 'em all. If a dog (any breed!!!! Even toy dogs!!!) is unstable genetically and shows unpredictable agression toward humans, (see a vet and behaviorist to determine cause), and PTS the poor thing.

6. A well bred APBT/AST/SBT is going to be one of the least likely dogs to bite somebody. Dog/bitches that turned around and redirected in the heat of the moment during a match tended to get culled real damn quick.

7. Dog parks are a terrible idea irregardless of breed and if you are on a path/park/etc. that has leash laws, freaking follow them and don't let your dog go up to strange dogs. Apparently common sense has gone right out the window...


----------



## Cliffdog

A good reiteration of the pro-responsibility posts in this thread. 

That said, most people within the APBT breed do not use the term 'pit bull' to represent AmStaffs, Staffies, or (bleh) AmBullies...


----------



## 3Musketeers

Just one thing Cliff...
I remember seeing some pretty *bloody* hamster fights as a kid.
IMO gerbils are better :tongue:


----------



## Katie Chumlee and Shorty

Oh you guys really come on.


----------



## RachelsaurusRexU

A couple more things to say, because they're going to bother me for days if I don't. 

A friend of mine went to grooming school recently. One of the dog trainers at this academy crated her Malinois and Maltese together because she trusted them. The Maltese was killed. 

I know a woman who always left her Greyhound and Chihuahua together while she was at work. She came home one day and found her Chihuahua shredded and deceased. 

A couple years ago, I received a call at work that a man stopped at his girlfriend's apartment to grab a few things, and left his two Catahoulas and his APBT mix (an older pup) in his van. Never had issues between these dogs. He went back out to his van 5-10 minutes later and the puppy had been killed. 

How in the world is 'ignorance' being fully cognisant of potential risks in a situation and 'irresponsibility' taking precautions to avoid incidents due to said potentially risky situation? I'd say that's the polar opposite of 'ignorant' and 'irresponsible'.


----------



## kevin bradley

I agree, Rachel. Kind of. 

But I can go find ample stories on Dogs killing humans, people dying in bathtubs, and for that matter, people dying in about 1000 different crazy ways. 

What I was most after in this thread was... probability. I'm not sure what I concluded. 

I can tell you right NOW. I have 3 Dogs at home right now. I would give you $100,000 if I ever came home and found any indication of a serious altercation. I can 100% tell you that it will never ever happen.


----------



## RachelsaurusRexU

kevin bradley said:


> I agree, Rachel. Kind of.
> 
> But I can go find ample stories on Dogs killing humans, people dying in bathtubs, and for that matter, people dying in about 1000 different crazy ways.
> 
> What I was most after in this thread was... probability. I'm not sure what I concluded.
> 
> I can tell you right NOW. I have 3 Dogs at home right now. I would give you $100,000 if I ever came home and found any indication of a serious altercation. I can 100% tell you that it will never ever happen.



And I sincerely 100% hope you're right! But I'm sure the people that I just mentioned felt the same way as you do, otherwise they wouldn't have put their dogs in those situations. 

I just don't see how it's worth leaving to chance, especially with breeds who had certain purposes and histories. Nobody has to agree with me, but I'll still continue to keep my dogs safe in whatever ways I feel are appropriate and pray to Dog that the above situations don't happen to anyone else. 

PS- bathtubs aren't living predatory creatures with teeth!

ONE more thing... I believe it was RFD who made the argument that all dogs do is sleep when people aren't home. If this is so, what difference does it make that mine are crated or in separate rooms during that time?


----------



## DaneMama

I think an owner needs to take into consideration each individual dog. Every aspect of that dog: past and present. Then take into account what that dog is like with the other dogs in the household. I think then and only then is when one can make an informed decision on what conditions to leave dogs unsupervised.


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## Cliffdog

In the end, you have to remind yourself that these are dogs. You can really only trust them to be dogs. To expect anything else of them is being unreasonable. And dogs fight. They aren't people. The don't know that they aren't supposed to fight. They're going to be dogs.


----------



## CorgiPaws

I agree with Natalie. I left Annie uncrated at Jon & Natalie's the very first time I ever went there, and none of us even had the shadow of a doubt that they'd be just fine. 

Dogs are individuals- first and foremost.


----------



## Cliffdog

CorgiPaws said:


> I agree with Natalie. I left Annie uncrated at Jon & Natalie's the very first time I ever went there, and none of us even had the shadow of a doubt that they'd be just fine.
> 
> Dogs are individuals- first and foremost.


Nobody's disagreed with that point! :thumb:


----------



## kevin bradley

one point I'd like make that kind of encapsulates our discussion... and I don't think I'm being too philosophical either, so please bear with me...

Life is about probability. Or at least it SHOULD be. One can make an argument for LOTS and LOTS of things being "risky." For pete's sake, statistically, driving a car is probably a CRAZY thing to do according to the numbers(just in my area today, I have 3 news stories about people dying on bad roads in the last 24 hours). 

Where I was going with my concerns is that I was trying to find some feel for the probability of significant issues occurring to those who leave Pits(or whatever we should refer to them as) at home during the day while at work. 
Yes, I understand that you may never know 100% that you won't have an issue. But I also cannot guarantee that someone tommorrow won't die from a Toaster oven. 

With this thread, and I've read it over and over... I found VERY few specific examples of people coming home to find Dogs thrashing one another. I found lots of ...."The breed is very unpredictable and bred to fight and you never know what COULD happen..." Yeah, I got it. Just like I don't know what will happen when I drive home tonight. But I'm pretty certain I'll make it. 

Just my thoughts.


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## RachelsaurusRexU

PLEASE join some pit bull forums and you'll read of plenty of first-hand accounts and specific incidents. You haven't heard many on this forum because a majority of the people responding to this thread HAVE NEVER OWNED A PIT BULL. 

Toaster ovens are also not dogs.


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## Cliffdog

Well, if you're willing to risk your dogs' lives, go for it! :thumb:

If you want specific examples...
Pit Bull Forum Index

I'd be willing to bet that 50% or more of the people there have a story of their dogs surprising them with a fight. Dogs are dogs. They fight. It happens. If you want to risk your dog's health and safety, go for it. I hope nothing bad ever happens.


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## kevin bradley

RachelsaurusRexU said:


> PLEASE join some pit bull forums and you'll read of plenty of first-hand accounts and specific incidents. You haven't heard many on this forum because a majority of the people responding to this thread HAVE NEVER OWNED A PIT BULL.
> 
> Toaster ovens are also not dogs.


of course I realize that Rachel, but in my analogy, yes...they are one and the same. Both have inherent risks.

I guess what you are saying is that your stance is that Pits pose a risk that is too great to accept. And I respect that opinion. 

I've kind of come to the conclusion that if what you guys say is true, I just can't have a Pit. No way am I gonna cage my Dogs every time I leave the house.... my Dogs all sleep in my bed when I'm gone.


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## RachelsaurusRexU

kevin bradley said:


> I guess what you are saying is that your stance is that Pits pose a risk that is too great to accept. And I respect that opinion.



Uhhhh....yeah, you can absolutely refrain from putting those words in my mouth. Thanks.


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## Cliffdog

kevin bradley said:


> I've kind of come to the conclusion that if what you guys say is true, I just can't have a Pit. No way am I gonna cage my Dogs every time I leave the house.... my Dogs all sleep in my bed when I'm gone.


If a pit isn't right for your home, then it isn't right.

But for the record, nobody said 'cage' your dogs. We said separate your dogs.

A lot of people let one dog have a bedroom, and one dog have the rest of the house. Then the next day, the other dog gets the bedroom/house. 

Outside dogs often enjoy a run, where they can play. Most pittie people suggest a covered run anyways because pit bulls are notorious escape artists. They can jump very high:
YouTube - Dog Jumps 10 Foot Fence!! MUST SEE!!!
And are pretty clever at finding other ways to get out!


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## kevin bradley

RachelsaurusRexU said:


> Uhhhh....yeah, you can absolutely refrain from putting those words in my mouth. Thanks.


what I meant to say was they pose too big a risk if you are not willing to accept some responsibility that you wouldn't otherwise have to deal with other breeds.

my apologies.


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## kevin bradley

I will admit, I took Cliff and Rachel's advice... went out to a Pit Bull forum... stumbled onto this link...

DON'T Leave your Dogs Unsupervised - General Dog Discussions


Tough to read but enlightening. I would encourage everyone to take a look. Yeah, I'm probably not ready to deal w/ some of these challenges. 

I've got to take a break from this thread. Just too hard to digest it all. 

I apologize if I offended anyone. Wasn't my intention. Just a tough subject.


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## Cliffdog

I didn't think you were trying to be offensive, and I understand how you feel. The fact is, I have seen it for myself. My neighbor's pit bulls were awesome with people, but they killed my cat, their owner's collie, my other neighbor's maltese, and four other dogs (that I didn't personally know) throughout the neighborhood. Fences were practically non-existent to them, they could jump a six foot fence like it wasn't there at all. Their owners said, "It wasn't my dog! They love other dogs!" even after they had mauled her collie to death. They were friendly dogs, but they had to be put down for their owner's irresponsibility, because they did not:
-keep them separated
-keep them contained

I don't want to see another 'vicious pit bull' story and I certainly don't want to hear about another dog being PTS because their owners failed them. 

Sorry if I have been aggressive with you all but, at least for me, APBTs are my love and my passion, and it hurts to see them put into positions where they are liable to fail.


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## SamWu1

APBT's are generally inclined to be more dog aggressive than your average pooch. To be perfectly frank, unless I raised the dog from puppyhood so I know he's well socialized, I would be a bit nervous about weak or dominant dogs in its presence.

The other dog plays a role as well of course. Kane is balanced and well socialized so when my best friend brought over a 75lbs. male pitbull he had just picked up from the shelter, they got along dandy.

When my neighbor's Doberman puppy was there, he lunged at the poor pup and bit a hole in his leg (He's fine). Any dog get along well together but some bully breeds tend to be more dog aggressive and requires more work. 

I know a guy that has 4 muscle bound pure bred blue's and they get along just fine under the same roof and he's no expert trainer.


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## Cliffdog

SamWu1 said:


> APBT's are generally inclined to be more dog aggressive than your average pooch. To be perfectly frank, unless I raised the dog from puppyhood so I know he's well socialized, I would be a bit nervous about weak or dominant dogs in its presence.


To be honest, if I was adopting an APBT into an multi-dog home, I'd get an adult instead of a puppy. APBT forums are full of people who have to crate/rotate adult dogs who LOVED other dogs when they were puppies, but grew out of that as adults. I believe this has a greatly reduced incidence in dogs who are speutered at a timely age, however.


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## tem_sat

I did read the suggested post in the Pit Bull Forum and went on to read more. I can tell you that it was extremely disturbing to me. I was especially sad to read that at least one Forum member apparently "chain spots" their 2 dogs with spacing of 3 feet (so they can't reach each other) and leaves them there "24/7/365".

I far prefer this Forum and I am more than certain that the Pit Bull owners here must take extremely good care of their dogs.

That Forum...really creeped me out.

-- Tara


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## Cliffdog

Yeah, I can't honestly say I'm a fan of the community at Pit Bull Chat: A Pet Pit Bull Community myself, but the point stands: people with expertise in the breed agree that it's better safe than sorry and pibbles are best kept separate when unsupervised. I even know someone who built a heated and cooled "stable" type shelter where they keep their APBTs while they are at work. Only one of the dogs has ever shown dog aggression but they stay on the safe side.


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## RachelsaurusRexU

tem_sat said:


> I did read the suggested post in the Pit Bull Forum and went on to read more. I can tell you that it was extremely disturbing to me. I was especially sad to read that at least one Forum member apparently "chain spots" their 2 dogs with spacing of 3 feet (so they can't reach each other) and leaves them there "24/7/365".
> 
> I far prefer this Forum and I am more than certain that the Pit Bull owners here must take extremely good care of their dogs.
> 
> That Forum...really creeped me out.
> 
> -- Tara


Yeah, there are definitely a couple members on a lot of the pitty forums (actually, that goes for dog forums in general!) who seem to treat their dogs more like livestock than family members :frown: 

Not cool.


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## xxshaelxx

RachelsaurusRexU said:


> Yeah, there are definitely a couple members on a lot of the pitty forums (actually, that goes for dog forums in general!) who seem to treat their dogs more like livestock than family members :frown:
> 
> Not cool.


*cough* or like a piece of fancy jewelry *cough* like that person from the Dobie forum that Cliffdog mentioned *cough*


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## whiteleo

Hey, I know several trainers who have heated barns for their horses!


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## RachelsaurusRexU

xxshaelxx said:


> *cough* or like a piece of fancy jewelry *cough* like that person from the Dobie forum that Cliffdog mentioned *cough*


Exactly


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## RachelsaurusRexU

whiteleo said:


> Hey, I know several trainers who have heated barns for their horses!


LOL. Okay, I should have specified... There are plenty who seem to treat their dogs like poorly treated livestock.


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## jiml

You really do need to realize that dogs are INDIVIDUALS>>>>>

True, however pit bulls do tend to be dog aggressive and there fights worse. That said my last pit bull loved dogs and cats. Id trust her with other dogs and cats 100%, My coonhound not so much. bottom line- Know your dog.


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## magicre

i've read this entire thread....and nothing i've read makes me think pitties should be banned, legislated against, eradicated from this earth...

the breeders and owners, perhaps, but not the dogs....

that said, perhaps i should have put my shih tzu down who took down a lab...the lab weighed over 80 lbs and my bandit weighed 19 lbs...but bandit got scared when cayman labbed into the yard....and i should have seen it coming and didn't....

and that said....i think it all depends on what you want from your dog..and what you're willing to do for your dog.

pit bull owners are under the gun in the public eye...is it fair? no. but yes, in some ways, because the bad apples give the responsible owners a really bad name....

i would not own a pit bull. i am lazy and i know it. i am not pit bull worthy...and there are plenty of people who aren't.

if there is going to be legislation, it should be about the breeders and the owners to be....

course, i believe parenthood should be legislated too...but that's a whole different story.

if ever i were to own a pit bull....i would err on the side of caution, and do as rachel and cliff do....mainly because they are a beautiful breed but they need a certain kind of care....breed appropriate care....

i think that's true of every dog....even yorkies need breed appropriate care....after all they are rat aggressive...and have you ever seen what a yorkie can do to a person's ankle....i've worked in ERs and people have died from yorkie attacks...so do we eliminate yorkies because their owners did not take the precautions....

kevin, i agree with the probability of whether or not a dog will or can be aggressive...personally i think all dogs CAN be ....but probable statistics deem that there are breeds of dogs where the statistics go up.....and that includes the bully breeds....german shepherds and dobermans....mastiffs and i'm sure, other breeds.

i want the dog with the lowest probability of aggression....i want the pug who even if he full on attacks me....it's laughable...but that's who I am....i have great admiration for those who understand pit bulls and other dogs who can be aggressive....and have been..

bad rep aside...they are magnificent dogs who require a certain level of training and care and caution.....and kudos to those who pay attention to that....

it's been an interesting read.....


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## 3Musketeers

magicre said:


> i think that's true of every dog....even yorkies need breed appropriate care....after all they are rat aggressive...and have you ever seen what a yorkie can do to a person's ankle....i've worked in ERs and people have died from yorkie attacks...so do we eliminate yorkies because their owners did not take the precautions....


Come to think of it, I have seen several VERY aggressive yorkies (and maltese). The again everyone in Miami wants a "teacup yorkie" because they are cute (and don't know other breeds exist) and there are tons of bad BYBs all over for them. They get away with it because they're tiny and they think it's cute when their dog tries to kill your ankles.

A cousin of mine once had one who would bark/bite my dad's old GSD. He (the GSD) could have easy eaten the yorkie alive, but the agressive one? The lil yorkie.


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## lauren43

RawFedDogs said:


> However, I don't think in the history of this board, I have seen so many misstatements in one thread by almost every participant. There is too many to even go into. All this dominance stuff and aggression stuff is hogwash. It's in the eye of the beholder. The dominance theory has been disproven. Almost all aggression is fear aggression. Dominance aggression really doesn't exist.



YAY!!! Reading through this thread I was getting so nervous and then I read this and felt soo much better.

Pit bulls as a breed are more likely to become DA at any point in there lives. Does that mean that every pit bull will be DA? NO. Does that mean that there are things you can do (and should do) to prevent this from happening? Yes. Does that garentee your dog will not become DA? NO. 

There are no garentees in the world of dogs and to be honest my parents shih tzu mix would be more likely to bite a person than my pit mix Avery would (not that I believe that DA or HA are at all related).


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## magicre

lauren, my 19 lb shih tzu attached himself to the haunch of an 80 lb lab and i thank g'd every day that lab was a sweetie, because bandit should have been an appetiser...

i think every breed has the capacity to be aggressive...in this case, it was fear aggression.....call it whatever...

i think pitties have that rep because of what they are capable of doing with those jaws....and people are scared...and what do people do or say when they're scared? out come the tales of the boogeyman...

there are these 'what type of dog person am i'....questionaires.....mine usually come out NOT PIT....for good reason. 

i think we need to educate ourselves on breeds and what they require for all to be happy.....and know thyself to really care for certain breeds responsibly so all are safe happy and not in a shelter waiting for euthanasia...


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## lauren43

Also my Avery is just over 1 year and right now he gets along great with every dog big and small and I will do everything in my power to keep him that way!


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## jiml

Cliffdog I think your totally wrong. It has nothing to do with dna.>>>>

I agree w cliff that pitbulls are more inclined to be dog aggressive and are capable of doing damage. 

However i do know that this varies dog to dog. my last pitbull was also submissive and was regularly left alone w other dogs and cats w no issue ever.


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## RCTRIPLEFRESH5

kevin bradley said:


> Lisa's post on the Pit Puppy got me thinking about Pits in general...
> 
> First off, I love the breed. I think they are amazing and very loving Dogs. But I'm also not naive enough to not understand that they do present some different dynamics from other breeds.
> 
> I've read this frequently on all the Bully breeds... that you cannot leave them alone with your other Dogs because of their tendency to fight. Its more than just people talking about this at the watercooler... I know I've actually read it in one of the mags recently(I think the title was actually "Bully Breeds")...
> As I recall, they point blank said that you have to separate your Dogs while you are away or they could go at it. This surprises me.
> 
> Personally, I find it hard to believe that a Dog raised with other Dogs in a positive environment would just go to battle the minute I leave the house... heck, I would think they'd just sit by the window waiting for me to come home like they always do.
> 
> I'd like to hear some thoughts from Pit owners and how the interaction between other Dogs works. Does some of the fighting tendencies come out of nowhere? Do you really have to separate everyone each time you leave the house?
> 
> thanks


this goes back to nature versus nurture. i think that nurture accounts for 60 percent of dog's temperments. Pitbulls have been BRED to be fighters. Raising a fighter to kill will obviously produce a viscious dog. Raising a fighter in a loving home, may produce a friendly dog who is very protective of their owners, but if socialized early as well, could be friendly with other dogs or humans....although i don;t feel they can be as friendly as a properly socialized golden.
but i do believe a properly socilized pit could be more friendly than a golden who was abused.

we saw two dobermans yesterday at the hospital. they looked like theyw anted to tear shane apart, so i kept him away..i was scared theyd tear me apart as well, but the owner said i could pet them..and i did


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## lauren43

RCTRIPLEFRESH5 said:


> this goes back to nature versus nurture. i think that nurture accounts for 60 percent of dog's temperments. Pitbulls have been BRED to be fighters. Raising a fighter to kill will obviously produce a viscious dog. Raising a fighter in a loving home, may produce a friendly dog who is very protective of their owners, but if socialized early as well, could be friendly with other dogs or humans....although i don;t feel they can be as friendly as a properly socialized golden.
> but i do believe a properly socilized pit could be more friendly than a golden who was abused.
> 
> we saw two dobermans yesterday at the hospital. they looked like theyw anted to tear shane apart, so i kept him away..i was scared theyd tear me apart as well, but the owner said i could pet them..and i did


I don't believe that it works quite like this. I know that when the Vick thing was big they were saying that of an entire litter they were "lucky" to get one fighter. Which is why many puppies were killed for no reason...If these dogs are pre-disposed to fighting why would it be hard to get a fighter?


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## lauren43

And of all (I think it was like 52) the Vick dogs only one was pts due to aggression.


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## RachelsaurusRexU

Fighting dogs are conditioned to fight, but that doesn't mean some level of DA or reactivity can't be innate in certain breeds (in general), or certain individuals. 

Look at Border Collies... Herding is generally instinctual, though those instincts need to be honed to create a skilled herder. Leave any ol' BC alone in your house with a bunch of cats or out in your yard with your chickens, he might decide that he wants to herd them however he sees fit and cause a lot of damage in the process. 

I think it would be risky to leave the most dog-friendly of pitties unattended amongst other dogs. They are intense, boisterous dogs who can be reactive to certain triggers. I'm sure the rescuers, rehabbers and adopters of the Vick dogs are pit-savvy enough to be well aware of that.


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## RachelsaurusRexU

lauren43 said:


> And of all (I think it was like 52) the Vick dogs only one was pts due to aggression.


Correct me if I'm wrong, but that dog was euthanized due to human aggression. The other dogs still needed to be rehabilitated to undo their previous conditioning. I'm sure their new families still work their butts off to make sure these dogs never get into any sort of trouble that would result in more scrutiny of the breed and this case.


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## lauren43

RachelsaurusRexU said:


> Correct me if I'm wrong, but that dog was euthanized due to human aggression. The other dogs still needed to be rehabilitated to undo their previous conditioning. I'm sure their new families still work their butts off to make sure these dogs never get into any sort of trouble that would result in more scrutiny of the breed and this case.


This is true. My point was that most of them are still alive.

Also that many of the dogs from Vicks case did get adopted and many have been found to not be DA. The remaining ones live at Bad Rap or Best Friends.


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## RachelsaurusRexU

lauren43 said:


> This is true. My point was that most of them are still alive.
> 
> Also that many of the dogs from Vicks case did get adopted and many have been found to not be DA. The remaining ones live at Bad Rap or Best Friends.


And even so I'd bet my life savings that you'd be hard-pressed to find an owner/keeper of one of these dogs who leaves them unsupervised with other dogs!


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## lauren43

I am not arguing for dogs being left unsupervised while home alone. I was simply stating some facts. 

My dog who is part pit is in his cage every single time I leave the house and I don't see that changing when I have multiple dogs.


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## RachelsaurusRexU

lauren43 said:


> I am not arguing for dogs being left unsupervised while home alone. I was simply stating some facts.
> 
> My dog who is part pit is in his cage every single time I leave the house and I don't see that changing when I have multiple dogs.


Didn't think you were! Just sayin'. I want others to realize the importance, that's all.


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## RawFedDogs

I don't understand why anyone would want a dog that can't be trusted and has to be caged everytime they leave the house. I understand puppies until they are house trained and still in the destructive stage but that is a temporary situation. 

I've had multiple dogs for over 20 years and never had an incident between the dogs. I've had some furnature chewed on a few times. Had carpet peed on a few times. NEVER had problems between dogs. I was never concerned about it and I'm not now.


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## RachelsaurusRexU

And I don't understand why you're so bothered by something that doesn't concern you in any way, shape, or form whatsoever. If people want to crate or separate their dogs while they're away, how does that affect you? It doesn't. So why should you concern yourself with it? Don't want the responsibility? Don't get a pit bull. Move on. 

My goodness. 



RawFedDogs said:


> I don't understand why anyone would want a dog that can't be trusted and has to be caged everytime they leave the house. I understand puppies until they are house trained and still in the destructive stage but that is a temporary situation.
> 
> I've had multiple dogs for over 20 years and never had an incident between the dogs. I've had some furnature chewed on a few times. Had carpet peed on a few times. NEVER had problems between dogs. I was never concerned about it and I'm not now.


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## RachelsaurusRexU

BUT if you must know...










__
Sensitive content, not recommended for those under 18
Show Content


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## RachelsaurusRexU




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## RachelsaurusRexU

....those are just a few of my reasons.


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## catahoulamom

RachelsaurusRexU said:


>


Sorry to change the subject, but... those are the most spectacular ears I've ever seen!!!


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## RachelsaurusRexU

Hahahaha yeah, they're pretty intense! 

Maggie says thank you! :wink:


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## RawFedDogs

RachelsaurusRexU said:


> And I don't understand why you're so bothered by something that doesn't concern you in any way, shape, or form whatsoever.


I didn't say it bothered me, I said I don't understand the mentality of a person who desires to live like that.


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## RachelsaurusRexU

And I don't understand the mentality of a person who desires to be so condescending all the time. 

...but oh well!


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## jiml

could be friendly with other dogs or humans....although i don;t feel they can be as friendly as a properly socialized golden.
but i do believe a properly socilized pit could be more friendly than a golden who was abused.
>>>>>>

you never met my last pitbull:smile::smile::smile:

Also realize that true well bred game pitbulls were bred to fight dogs and be separated safely when necessary. Any human aggression was not tolerated. That has changes some w the popularity in inner city status dogs.


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## jiml

I said I don't understand the mentality of a person who desires to live like that.>>>>

Id say thats individual preference. I know some that dont understand why anyone would subject themselves to the responsibilities of a dog period.


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## kevin bradley

Rachel and Raw,

I see both of your points of view, as should everyone imho. 

Raw makes a great point that owning a Pit does seem like a crazy tough responsibility. And I would guess he also believes(I'm not talking for him, so chime in, Raw) that if Pits are SO damn dangerous to be left alone then how could a person exist with them in the house without being on guard all the time--even when they are home. It's a fair point. Really.

Rachel(again, tell me if I'm wrong) believes that while Pits pose a significant responsibility, they are such a fantastic breed that it makes the proactive precautions all worthwhile. I tend to agree w/ her on this... I never thought I'd love Pits as much as I do after being around a friends recently. He is the most loving, playful Dog I've ever seen... and as intelligent as my Border Collie mix. 

I don't think either of you are necessary "right" but I believe both of you are "right" if this makes any sense. 

I will say this... when I started this thread, I had no idea it would evolve into everything it became. Life is full of risks. I realize this. What I was after was to try to understand if Pits being left alone were a crazy, out of the ordinary risk. 

I'm still not sure


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## monkeys23

RachelsaurusRexU said:


> Look at Border Collies... Herding is generally instinctual, though those instincts need to be honed to create a skilled herder. Leave any ol' BC alone in your house with a bunch of cats or out in your yard with your chickens, he might decide that he wants to herd them however he sees fit and cause a lot of damage in the process.


The balls to the wall drivey BC I had growing up was best friends with my rabbit, fantastic with my huge pack of cats, hunted mice/birds/etc. for himself to snack on, herded stock, 200% trustworthy with us kids would've given his life to keep us safe, hunted bear with my dad, and yet hated all other dogs and would nearly kill himself to try and get to them. He did learn to live with a heeler bitch later in life, but that was a pair bond thing.

Some dogs just don't need dog buddies. Period.


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