# Got bloodwork back from the vet



## Noodlesmadison (Sep 18, 2011)

Noodles urine is PERFECT! Thanks to raw  YEA!

But her liver enzymes are high 195. They WERE 404 last year before we started raw. So the drop is really good but the vet is concerned that cushing's disease or such may be a possibility in the future.

I was reading milk thistle can lower liver enzymes so I may try that. Can feeding her MORE liver help her liver by lowering enzymes? Or LESS?

She doesn't get vaccinated because she got Hepatitis from vaccines a few years ago. Her distemper and parvo titers showed she has NO immunity towards them at all. I know many of you don't vaccinate... are your dogs titers like this as well?


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## Kat (Jul 12, 2011)

Ruby had high liver enzymes this year too. I made a post about it in the holistic section if you want to take a look at it. There are some good suggestions there. Its called liver flushing/detoxing


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## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

It seems like she is going in the right direction - I'm not positive but I don't think 195 is high for a raw fed dog. Kat, weren't Ruby's 300 something? And that isn't not as alarming as it first seemed?


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## Liz (Sep 27, 2010)

Her levels are so close to in range that I would personally just give milk thistle for a while and see if that brings them down some more.


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## Noodlesmadison (Sep 18, 2011)

This is so relieving to hear in a sense. I'm hoping raw fed dogs just have naturally high liver enzymes with no ill effect. I was starting to panic :fear:
I'll look at your post thank you kat!


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## BearMurphy (Feb 29, 2012)

Noodlesmadison said:


> Her distemper and parvo titers showed she has NO immunity towards them at all. I know many of you don't vaccinate... are your dogs titers like this as well?


I think it actually means that she has no antibodies because she hasn't been exposed to those diseases recently. so it doesn't mean your dog can't fight off the disease, it's that they don't have proof that your dog has fought it off. not sure if i'm explaining this right but i'm sure someone else will be able to offer more info


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## Noodlesmadison (Sep 18, 2011)

Liz said:


> Her levels are so close to in range that I would personally just give milk thistle for a while and see if that brings them down some more.


Do I have her retested after milk thistle for awhile?
That vet trip was so expensive, I think they are paying for their waiting room renovation lol


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## Kat (Jul 12, 2011)

Average range is 12-118, and Rubys was 331. The vet said it isnt alarming until it gets into the 500's. Of course Rubys is somewhat of a concern, but it's not as scary as I thought it was in the beginning.


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## Noodlesmadison (Sep 18, 2011)

BearMurphy said:


> I think it actually means that she has no antibodies because she hasn't been exposed to those diseases recently. so it doesn't mean your dog can't fight off the disease, it's that they don't have proof that your dog has fought it off. not sure if i'm explaining this right but i'm sure someone else will be able to offer more info


That's a relief in a sense as well. The vet told me not to let her around puppies, etc. My neighborhood is full of sick dogs due to the neglect and lack of care that is going on around here. I'm a little paranoid now!

I should add: She never ever goes to dog parks and she doesn't like to play w other dogs so there is no dog exposure. However, the vet said parvo lives on the sidewalk, tires, people, etc.


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## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

I don't titer because my vet told me those titers are very unreliable. 

If I thought they would actually tell me if my dog had immunity I would do them.


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## Liz (Sep 27, 2010)

Honestly I would give the milk thistles for a couple of months and not worry much. The numbers really are not that high and the milk thistle will help. It is costly and I would wait a good while before retesting.


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## BearMurphy (Feb 29, 2012)

here's a link that can explain titers better than I did 

Titers


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## Noodlesmadison (Sep 18, 2011)

xellil said:


> I don't titer because my vet told me those titers are very unreliable.
> 
> If I thought they would actually tell me if my dog had immunity I would do them.


Interesting. I live in NYC so I wonder if my vet was taught titers are needed because we all live so close to each other? I don't know.. I'm guessing here heh


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## Noodlesmadison (Sep 18, 2011)

Liz said:


> Honestly I would give the milk thistles for a couple of months and not worry much. The numbers really are not that high and the milk thistle will help. It is costly and I would wait a good while before retesting.


Okay I will order milk thistle right now. Is there a dosing chart of sorts? Pill or liquid preferred? She's 14 pounds at the moment (mildly overweight and needs to lose some of that lol)


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## Liz (Sep 27, 2010)

Capsules or powdered are probably easiest and I would double check dosage and post a little later.


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## Noodlesmadison (Sep 18, 2011)

Liz said:


> Capsules or powdered are probably easiest and I would double check dosage and post a little later.


Thanks for your help. I'm feeling optimistic now


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## Noodlesmadison (Sep 18, 2011)

Liz said:


> Capsules or powdered are probably easiest and I would double check dosage and post a little later.


I think I'm going to order this brand. Amazon.com: Jarrow Formulas Milk Thistle Standardized Silymarin 150mg, 200 Capsules: Health & Personal Care


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## BearMurphy (Feb 29, 2012)

Noodlesmadison said:


> Interesting. I live in NYC so I wonder if my vet was taught titers are needed because we all live so close to each other? I don't know.. I'm guessing here heh


a titer is no guarantee, it is just a tool you can use to determine if you should vaccinate your dog. you can infer that if your dog has antibodies for a disease they have fought it off at some point. if your dog doesn't have any antibodies you have no indication that they can fight it off other than hoping that the good immune system you have been trying to build on raw will help her fight it off just like Liz has told us she does with her pups. if you are never going to vaccinate your dog there is no point in titer testing unless you want to know if your dog has come in contact with the disease recently and fought it off


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## Noodlesmadison (Sep 18, 2011)

Kat said:


> Ruby had high liver enzymes this year too. I made a post about it in the holistic section if you want to take a look at it. There are some good suggestions there. Its called liver flushing/detoxing


What sort of detox symptoms did/is Ruby experiencing? Noodles is very sensitive and I worry (I'm completely crazy :crazy. I don't want her uncomfortable in any way


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## Liz (Sep 27, 2010)

I definitley would not titre. Many disease naturally acquired not through vaccines are actually flushed through the mucous membranes before they become and issue. Parvo even in raw fed non vacc pup can be so mild it looks like a puppy cold. We just don't worry about it. If they come down with something the first course of action is to keep them hydrated, calm and quiet and feed mild broths for nutrients and energy. There are different treatments of course for different diseases and we would deal with those as they come but they have never come about. My three youngest have been spending tons of time in handling classes and at the lake with us and no issues just like the adults before them. The more generations you have like this the less inclined to worry you are.


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## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

Noodlesmadison said:


> Interesting. I live in NYC so I wonder if my vet was taught titers are needed because we all live so close to each other? I don't know.. I'm guessing here heh


Or, the vet makes money off the titers.

My vet in Indiana was extremely honest with me about things she thought were a waste of money - my vet here suggests EVERYTHING down to the kitchen sink and I'm sure it's because he makes money from it even though he knows my dogs don't need it all. 

My vet in Indiana also didn't sell Rx food from the waiting room.


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## Noodlesmadison (Sep 18, 2011)

xellil said:


> Or, the vet makes money off the titers.
> 
> My vet in Indiana was extremely honest with me about things she thought were a waste of money - my vet here suggests EVERYTHING down to the kitchen sink and I'm sure it's because he makes money from it even though he knows my dogs don't need it all.
> 
> My vet in Indiana also didn't sell Rx food from the waiting room.


Makes sense. I think that I shouldn't be so paranoid about taking her outside now.. Every since raw, she's become a stronger girl (in many ways, emotionally and physically. She's sensitive like me lol)


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## Kat (Jul 12, 2011)

Noodlesmadison said:


> What sort of detox symptoms did/is Ruby experiencing? Noodles is very sensitive and I worry (I'm completely crazy :crazy. I don't want her uncomfortable in any way


I have not gotten in the supplements Liz suggested I buy yet. They should be here by tomorrow. But all you need to do is milk thistle, I have 6 different supplements for Rubys because hers was in the 300's.


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## Noodlesmadison (Sep 18, 2011)

The vet ended up calling me back to discuss the possibility that Noodles has been in fact having slight seizures. Every other month or so, she drools while her teeth chatter and she stares into space.
I'm glad she called back because I told her I'm putting her on Milk thistle and she LOVED the idea! She said that was the road to go. So happy


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## Chocx2 (Nov 16, 2009)

So Liz you don't vaccinate at all? I get titers done so far they are coming up high over 4.5 One of my dogs had parvo as a pup and I suspect that the others contracted it while he was sick? Rabbies is my worry though. I have seen a lot of puppies die from parvo, so you hydrate them if they get sick?

I myself have been titered for hep, was vaccinated for work and every so many years they titer us. Levels have to stay so high or you have to be vaccinated again. Don't know if any of this makes any sense but ??


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## Liz (Sep 27, 2010)

It has been 9 years this summer since anyone in my home has been vaccinated. My last case of parvo deaths were with a litter of pup ten years ago who were current on their vaccination schedule and people were just starting to come see them. I lost that whole litter. It was devastating and cost me thousands in vet care. We stopped vaccinating - the following year my non vaccinated litter also got parvo, we put them on broth, sub Q fluids and ParvAid as well as a few other natural remedies and in three days they were all eating, drinking and playing. We have never had parvo again or anything else for that matter. My friends who breed have parvo scares, coccidia and giradia as well as worms constantly. Not here. I start taking my pup out at six weeks old to socialize and to handling classes by 16 weeks old. I don't like most puppy classes as they are a doggie free for all and I don't want my pups learning bad manners. So I haven't titres recently either - I just don't see the need. So all is well here in non vaccinate land - oh every one travels with me, goes to parks, lakes and shows.


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