# Large breed knuckling & bowed



## Seabreeze (Oct 3, 2010)

Any recommendations for a 9 wk done that seems to be knuckling & bowing? Her breeder was feeding her ProPlan Sport. I have continued with this food, adding a teaspoon of raw (chicken/veggies/fruit found mix). Is low protein the way to go for this?


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## naturalfeddogs (Jan 6, 2011)

It sounds like a calcium issue, maybe. Maybe go with a large greed puppy food. I feed raw and have never had the problem, but I know years ago (when I did kibble feed) our vet gave us a calcium supplement for a dobe pup we had to prevent this. Rickets, that what he said the condition was.


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## Seabreeze (Oct 3, 2010)

I have been reading that protein is not the problem. High calcium levels are. So I think I'm going to go with Bona-Fido (raw dehydrated) and maybe add some vitamin C.


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## MollyWoppy (Mar 19, 2010)

why go dehydrated raw? Sounds expensive. Try Prey Model Raw. Plenty of giant dogs here have been raised from their mother onto PMR without any issues.


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## naturalfeddogs (Jan 6, 2011)

Seabreeze said:


> I have been reading that protein is not the problem. High calcium levels are. So I think I'm going to go with Bona-Fido (raw dehydrated) and maybe add some vitamin C.


Why dehydrated raw? You are missing one of the benefits of raw that way, by not getting all the added moisture. Not to mention the calcium you would be getting from actual bone, rather than ground and dehydrated.


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## Seabreeze (Oct 3, 2010)

The dehydrated raw is whole chicken with bones, eggs, veggies, fruit, flax, oatmeal, brown rice . I mix it with the frozen grain free and some water. The dehydrated is easy to store.


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## Seabreeze (Oct 3, 2010)

The calcium is there in the bones & egg shells


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## [email protected] (Oct 14, 2013)

I hope your dog is OK. I think it's great that you're looking into dehydrated raw food. You're right, that's an easy way to go, especially if you're new to raw feeding and you can make sure the food is balanced. Sure, you can look into the prey model down the road if you're interested but I'm glad you're looking into any type of raw diet for now. Good luck, and I hope your dog is OK.


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## NZ Raw (Sep 14, 2011)

My sisters dog started knuckling at about the same age as yours, I got her to go out and buy premade raw (k9 Naturals) that decision was overruled by the vet because as we all know vets love their science diet. He did give her some good advice as to how much to feed the dog, as feeding treats, feeding to much , mixing foods is a big factor in uneven growth patterns. 
I still think premade is the way to go for puppies especially if raw feeding is new to you. I am not to familiar with brands of premade where you might live, but I like the look of Vital essentals, the one you are using has to many veges and not enough meat and organs for my liking. If you compare bono fido ingredience to something like Ziwipeak you will see what I mean  .


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## Seabreeze (Oct 3, 2010)

Bona-Fido frozen raw has the same protein % as the ones you mentioned. Organ meat is roughly 8%. As for veggies, they provide vitamins & minerals that are accessible if processed (mechanical or temp). I'm still looking into the brown rice and oatmeal, neither of which has been an issue for older dobe or husky. The"air dried" mentioned by ziwipeak is dehydration, same as Bona-Fido.

Guess I'm really most concerned with the affect of protein or calcium levels on bowing and knuckling. It sounds like people are split on the issue


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## NZ Raw (Sep 14, 2011)

ZiwiPeak is 90% meat bone and organs, green tripe (which is still part of an animal), chicory, kelp and parsley, plus essential vitamins and minerals, like chondroitin and glucosamine. Vital essentials too is a good *meat based* food, using various species. In all fairness I could not find info on Bonofido's actual *real meat* content but the picture of ingredients put me off from the start.
Not all proteins are created equal , Protein from meat is a high biological protein where as protein from plants is low. 
You seem to be quite intent on using this food and that is fine it is your dog, there are most definitely worse foods out there. I just thought you might be interested in some of the differences between premade foods and possibly better options. 

Off the greatdanelady website.

Knuckling over is caused by the following:
1) a combination of two different types or brands of dog foods - feeding (50/50) 
2) the brand or type of food has been changed several times (3-4) times 
3) the addition of poor quality vitamins/minerals to a diet (not from whole foods)
4) human foods in amounts enough to disrupt the calcium/phosphorus balance 
5) too many calories vs the amount of free exercise they get on a daily bases
6) feeding a pet food that has minerals that are not very available to the body - crude forms
7) diets lacking vital microminerals or trace minerals
8) feeding too much of a good food
9) any or all of the above.

Like I said Science diet for large puppies 30.1 % protein recommended by vet worked for my sisters dog, other people recommend Ekukanuba puppy 26% protien ziwiPeak 38% Vital essentials 41.5% 

Since the protein levels don't seem to be the problem the calcium / phosphorus *balance* might be what you want to look into.


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## Seabreeze (Oct 3, 2010)

Why did the picture of ingredients put you off?? The real meat is whole chicken-meat, bone, cartilage (natural source of chondroitin and glucosamine), skin, fat, organ meat. What is a "high biological protein"? I understand that not all veggie proteins are complete (contain all essential amino acids), but all EAAs can be obtained through a variety of veggies. The amino acids, vitamins and minerals are all available when mechanically processed (to break the cell wall). Between the meat & veggies all essential amino acids are obtained. I'm hearing that synthetic nutrients, i.e. Thiamine Mononitrate, are not being fully utilized, but stored in tissues and the fact that many, if not all synthetics are imported causes concern. Imagine if these synthetics, for whatever reason, were no longer available. Would we have a massive die-off in the dog world? No, they would get there nutrients directly from food. I don't understand how ziwipeak is 90% meat/bone, but lists its protein value as only 33%. The protein in frozen Bona-Fido is close to 50%. Bona-Fido used to include liver in the organ meat, but the fact that the liver is the cleansing organ for the body makes it not quite so desirable. I honestly can't see any downside to Bona-Fido. I spoke with Dr Harvey about the liver issue. He said he wouldn't feed liver to a rat. 

Back to the main point though, almost all "puppy formulas" have a protein level of 26, so I'm guessing that level is not over the top. The calcium level, from what I've read, should be no higher than 1.3%, although aafco allows for something like 7% for puppies. The field of nutrition is still wide open apparently.


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## Seabreeze (Oct 3, 2010)

Also, the CA to P is 1.3:1 AAFCO recommends 1:1 to 2:1 range.


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## NZ Raw (Sep 14, 2011)

I didn't like the picture because the emphasis is on vegetables not meat (as seems the whole site), maybe that picture is not proportionate to the actual amounts in each batch but it is their advertising. I feed PMR and prefer a premade raw to be as close to that as possible so I can have a back up when needed, that also means I prefer frozen to dehydrated, it freaks me out when animals drink so much I am just not used to it.
The protein levels in ZiwiPeak may be because chicken is higher in protein than some other meats. I also didn't just come on here to advocate for ZiwiPeak lol, it was just an off the top of my head example, and for you a very expensive one.
If someone that told me that about livers they would loose all credibility in my eyes, livers are an incredibly nutrient dense food. There job is to neutralize toxins yes, but they do not store it, they do store vitamins A, D, E, K, B12 and folic acid, and minerals like iron. This richness does mean you need to feed the right amount.

This is just my view, I shared the foods I know that have been used and worked for the problem you are having , so you could look them up for comparisons. It is good to take a proper look at what you are feeding and figure out what is right for you and your dog. If you like the food you have chosen as I said that is fine. 
Maybe your pup isn't that bad ? just normal knobbly puppies knees also what breed of dog do you have? would love photos too


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## Seabreeze (Oct 3, 2010)

Dogs have been on Bona-Fido for years and doing great. Don't have any pics of the puppy yet. Her legs are less bowed and the knuckling is better. Maybe it's just puppyhood and being a dobe.


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## NZ Raw (Sep 14, 2011)

Gorgeous dogs! I thought it might be a Doberman, I just never thought of them being a large breed.


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## Seabreeze (Oct 3, 2010)

Thanks. Do you know of any foods that do not add synthetics? I prefer dehydrated-no extreme temps - just add water or bone broth. Also looking for cat food without synthetics. I've tried everything with the cats - raw, cooked - with no luck.


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## naturalfeddogs (Jan 6, 2011)

Cats can be difficult. Mine are partial raw, partial kibble for that reason. They kill their own prey outside, rabbits, chipmunks, squirrels, birds and mice on a regular basis. They also eat some of the dogs food while I am preparing their portions on the counter tops. Their favorite is liver, but they don't get enough of everything, so it's some kibble for them along with it.


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## NZ Raw (Sep 14, 2011)

Seabreeze said:


> Thanks. Do you know of any foods that do not add synthetics? I prefer dehydrated-no extreme temps - just add water or bone broth. Also looking for cat food without synthetics. I've tried everything with the cats - raw, cooked - with no luck.


Pulled this list off one site I am sure if you search you will find a lot more, I have no idea of their merits.

Answers pet food
Primal
Darwins
Stella and chewys
Raw deal
Canis raw
Vital essentials
Bravo
Dr Harveys
Natures Variety
Rad cat
The honest kitchen
Ziwipeak

Cats are tricky when feeding raw it has to be very fresh and room temperature. My cats favorite is lamb hearts but she will only eat them from one supermarket I go to (on her recommendation we only buy meats for us there too.) Chicken hearts she love too, she will eat a whole drum stick, necks, livers but not to keen on beef livers. She does eat some raw but unlike the dog her variety is limited (fussy brat), but she has no problem devouring vermin and the occasional bird.


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## MollyWoppy (Mar 19, 2010)

If you want a kibble that uses dehydrated raw, try Farmina ND. No GMO's either. It's the only kibble my cat will eat, recently along with a tiny bit of cat mouth sized cut up raw chicken. I've been trying to switch her to canned/cooked/dehydrated/PMR for years now with no luck whatsoever.


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