# Next question...vet techs?



## xxshaelxx (Mar 8, 2010)

Okay, so, I had it out with mum today about her cats' diet. And when I say had it out, I MEAN had it out. I tried telling her that her cats' diet (Prescription Diet CD) is without a doubt, the worst thing I've ever seen in my life (maybe not, but certainly disgusted me and made me want to cry when I looked up the ingredients), and she proceeded to tell me that when I go to school and get a degree, I can tell her what to feed her animals. I told her that vets are only required to take ONE nutrition class, and that it is sponsored by companies such as Science Diet and Purina that have some of the worst foods available for dogs and cats, and that they're backed by those companies and get kick backs for selling their products. She then said that I am killing my dogs, feeding them raw, at which point, I hung up the phone, fuming. Then proceeded to call her back and scream at her to never talk to me again, repeatedly. Why? Because I've told them over and over again the benefits of raw, the reasons why I feed it, how they've improved, and how it's a natural diet for CARNIVORES. Yet she still does not listen, and I DO NOT take lightly to people telling me that I am killing my dogs. Well, that seemed to get through to her, because she called me back a few minutes later and told me that she'd switch their diets...BUT I have to have the vet "on board." -.-

SO, herein lies my question, vet techs, and anyone else who can help me...what should I say to the vet? Mum says that she's very open about things, but I just can't get over the stereotype of non-holstic vets and their stubbornness to put animals on the most horrid crap they possibly can. How can I phrase this so the vet doesn't get defensive? How can I continue to convince my thick-skulled mother that a better diet would be what's best for her cats?


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## DaneMama (Jun 27, 2008)

In my experience if you go in there with a list of good foods rhey will say any of them will do just fine. Most vets don't even really know anything about any of the other (better) brands. It's like if the food has the AAFCO stamp of approval that's all they need. 

But I have to ask...why was your moms cat on c/d? It's an RX diet for urinary stones....


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## xxshaelxx (Mar 8, 2010)

Rowdy, her other cat, has chronic urinary tract infections, and mum wants to keep them both on the same food, so that's what Roxie is on as well. And Roxie's health is steadily getting worse and worse, and mum and dad say "she's old, she's inbred, and she's had a stroke." She's NOT old, inbred doesn't really make a difference in my opinion (bet 90% of cats these days are inbred), and she DIDN'T have a stroke. The vets burst her eardrum, or something, when they went in for a routine cleaning and she walked crooked for a few weeks after that, but when I told them this, they refused to believe me. -.- Anyways, she had pneumonia a while back, and ever since then, she's had "allergy" problems that cause her lungs to fill up with liquid. She's been on prednisone for the longest time now and goes in every three weeks to get a shot. I'm taking her in about an hour and a half for her next shot. This last one didn't do anything for her.

I'm trying to switch the cats to Felidae, because it has cranberries pretty high up on the ingredients list, so I think it will do better for Rowdy's urinary tract infections, as well as to help Roxie fight off her own issues.


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## cprcheetah (Jul 14, 2010)

Print this out & give a copy to the vet and a copy to your mom (it is written by a Veterinarian)

Feeding Your Cat: Know The Basis of Feline Nutrition

We have quit carrying all prescription diets and have cats doing extremely well on increased moisture in their diet (canned foods, adding water to the canned food to make soupy) etc. The grains in the c/d actually contribute to crystal formation.

Dogs and cats did not evolve to eat grains… so why include grains in pet food? :animals and adventures
If ash isn’t the problem, then what is? How do I prevent urinary tract problems?
There is much proof that feeding an obligate carnivore primarily a grain-based dry diet can contribute more to a urinary stone problem than any other single factor. The long-term dehydration that occurs causes concentrated urine and places considerable strain on the kidneys. Feeding poor-quality food to pets (including those containing corn as a protein instead of meat) results in toxicity and an excessive elimination load on the lining of the urinary system.
By contrast, a diet of meat, bones, and organs contains a mineral content – or ash content – that is not synthetic or artificial. When a whole food substance is ingested, the animal has a very slim chance of developing a mineral imbalance. Taking in nutrients as they occur in their natural state or as a whole food source will prevent the animal from concentrating minerals or vitamins, thus causing health issues.

Study that was done:
Evaluation of effects of dietary carbohydrate on f... [Am J Vet Res. 2004] - PubMed result
An excerpt: 
"Starch and fiber in diets potentially stimulate formation of struvite crystals. Hence, reducing dietary carbohydrate is desirable to prevent struvite urolith formation. In addition, a net loss of body calcium, phosphorus, and magnesium during feeding of the fiber diet suggests that dietary inclusion of insoluble fiber could increase macromineral requirements of cats."

Study on the Effects of a high-protein diet on mineral metabolism and struvite activity product in clinically normal cats.
Effects of a high-protein diet on mineral metaboli... [Am J Vet Res. 1996] - PubMed result


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## bdb5853 (May 21, 2010)

xxshaelxx said:


> she proceeded to tell me that when I go to school and get a degree, I can tell her what to feed her animals.


This argument just doesn't hold any water with me. Humans have much more complex nutritional needs than carnivores. Does your mom have a nutrition or doctorate degree? NO?! Then how the heck does she feed herself and her family? Without a degree???? Oh what will we do?! LOL! This is one of the hardest "myths" for people to shake. That you have to be a scientist to feed a dog. Heck, no more than you have to be a scientist to feed yourself. 

If you can feed yourself and your family a balanced diet, you can certainly feed a dog. :wink:

Glad you set her straight on the vets not getting much nutrition in school and it being sponsored by dog food companies. 

Sorry you had it out with her though. Conflict with families can really be a downer. 

Sounds like you are on the right path though.


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## xxshaelxx (Mar 8, 2010)

I am, without a doubt, BEYOND disgusted right now. I'm so MAD!

So, I just got back from the vet, where I did give her that printed out pamphlet on cat health and nutrition, and a list of the ingredients in the Felidae. The second I walked into the office, my hopes of her being open minded immediately went down, because there, on the counter, in plain sight, was a stack of pamphlets promoting Science Diet. UGH! So anyways, I tell her that Roxie's not doing any better, and that I'd like to switch her diet, and I explain to her why, explain to her that I feel a more meat based protein would be a better fit with her, and she preceeded to tell me that she has a Prescription Diet that's higher in protein and lower in carbohydrates, but she likes the potato/GRAIN proteins for cats. She also said that she doesn't recommend fish to be fed to cats, because it's not their normal food, and can cause allergies. IT'S BETTER THAN BREWERS RICE AND CORN GLUTEN MEAL!!!! I showed her the list of ingredients for Felidae, and she told me that it doesn't have enough FIBER, and that cats can get constipated really easily, and that she won't recommend anything with less than 6% fiber. -.- AND YET, I look at the Prescription Diet CD $%^&, and it has .5% fiber!!! WHAT A CROCK!


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## DaneMama (Jun 27, 2008)

See what Im tellin' ya? Most just have no clue. Just feed her the Felidae and be done with it. But I would do at least half the diet of canned food for the moisture.


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## k9capture_16 (Aug 23, 2010)

LOL, wow. My vet, swears Science Diet is the best food and he will only recommend that food to others. I try not to disguise nutrition at this vets office. I have a feeling Ruby will need a tooth removed soon and I already know he will try to tell me her poor quality kibble caused it. Oh well

When will they change the teachings around...probably never


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## xxshaelxx (Mar 8, 2010)

haha. Natalie, will you talk to her for me?! I'm at my wits end, because I KNOW she's going to agree with the vet, and be, like, "If the cat needs this, then she needs this." -.- You're a vet tech, you can tell her! Maybe I should bring Rachel over here? That would definitely be an interesting evening of my mother NOT shutting up enough to even let Rachel tell her exactly what the TRUTH is about cats' diets and vets' nutritional expertise.


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## xxshaelxx (Mar 8, 2010)

Oh, and I did print out that cat nutrition guide thing and took it to her. She said she'd read it, and I hope she does. Is it wrong of me to HOPE that she's totally offended by what she might read?

Oh, and she did say that you "can find anything on the Internet." -.- Yeah, like a million stories of how cats improved coming off of their $h%^ diets.


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## xxshaelxx (Mar 8, 2010)

And I almost forgot! She told me not to switch the other cat, with the Urinary Tract issues, to Felidae, because it would clog up her kidneys. I SERIOUSLY felt like telling her to shove it, and that her garbage is what is clogging poor Rowdy's kidneys up, and just masking the problem, and eventually her bladder would probably explode!


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## cast71 (Sep 16, 2010)

Don't feel so bad, I think alot of people here have been through the same battering. When I first told my vet I was done with vaccinations, she told me she thinks I should find a holistic vet. If they decide to drop the ridiculous rates, maybe I would. Than I said no more flea, tick and heartworm stuff and you could imagine the attitude. Than I came back a year later and she said " your dog looks good, what did you do?" I told her I fed raw and the crap was flying. She brought her vet tech in, so she could attack me and have her vet tech there as laughing backup. Telling me or sorts of stories of salmonella. She said one of her clients is a butcher and has seen worms in meat. The butcher would never feed any uncooked food for that reason alone. I stood my ground, never even arguing. I let them finish there foolishness and went on my merry way ahahahaha Than I came back the flowing year and she started pushing heartworm on me. She almost seemed upset the heartworm and fecal tests came back negative. She even pestered me when I was almost out the door ahahaha asking you sure you don't want any heartworm. My response was whatever i'm doing is working. I still go back there. You might ask why??? Cause she is a decent vet (other than for nutrition )and her prices are beyond fair. I've had a few emergencies. She always fits me in right away and never charges an office visit. She only charges me for the yearly checkup. She also has giving me free medicine. I also notice how much she loves animals. She adopted a pot belly pig. It runs around the office ahahahaaha She's starting to come around as well. She no longer sells science diet rx and recommends her clients to use TOTW for allergies. Stick in there and proceed on with the felidae. Good luck!


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## Unosmom (May 3, 2009)

Since I'll be going to school for a vet tech program, I get a feeling that I'll be in a world of utter frustration. The very last course I'll be taking is on nutrition, which I'm very curious about, heres the discription of it
"Description
This course covers the principles of nutrition and their application to feeding practices of domestic, farm, and companion animals. Topics include basic nutrients and nutritional needs of individual species, proximate analysis, interpretation of food and feed labels, types of animal foods, and ration formulation. Upon completion, students should be able to select appropriate diets for animals in various stages of health and disease, analyze nutrition labels, and identify foods."

I'm curious to see if they made any upgrades since the city where the school is at is very pro holistic/alternative, but I wont be too surprised if its sponsored by Hills, I just hope they wont expel me for asking too many questions and contradicting them 

I hope after graduation I can find a holistic vet to work for because I would hate to recommend that crap to people for the fear of being fired at the mention of something else.


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## xxshaelxx (Mar 8, 2010)

Well, the task will be convincing my mother to stop being an ignorant imbacile (new favorite word? I think so). With everything the vet said, I'm hoping that I can convince her to change just on sheer facts, AND of course with reading that handy document cprcheetah linked me to. I mean, I've read it before, three times now, actually, and I've learned a lot off of it. It's written by a veterinarian, so hopefully my mother will see that as credible. The one I printed off, though, doesn't have the statement about vets only taking one class for nutrition that is backed by companies like Science Diet and Purina, etc., and that they're given kickbacks to sell this stuff. Anyone got a good article as proof of that?


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## Unosmom (May 3, 2009)

I'll have to look for some later, but I saved this link:
The Science Diet Scam


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## cast71 (Sep 16, 2010)

Unosmom said:


> I just hope they wont expel me for asking too many questions and contradicting them


I think mums the word. Maybe even goto sleep during that class ahahahahahaha





Unosmom said:


> I hope after graduation I can find a holistic vet to work for because I would hate to recommend that crap to people for the fear of being fired at the mention of something else.


Unfortunately that is the problem. It's unfortunate you have knowledge to actually help, but your hands are tied back.


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## Unosmom (May 3, 2009)

Heres something else I found:
Veterinary Students Information and School Resources | HillsVet


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## xxshaelxx (Mar 8, 2010)

> animal fat (rendered fat of unspecified animals, possibly diseased, decayed or even euthanized pets)


Is that seriously what vets do with your pets if they pass away and you leave them at their office? That makes me want to cry...


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## SerenityFL (Sep 28, 2010)

bdb5853 said:


> This argument just doesn't hold any water with me. Humans have much more complex nutritional needs than carnivores. Does your mom have a nutrition or doctorate degree? NO?! Then how the heck does she feed herself and her family? Without a degree???? Oh what will we do?!


You took the words right out of my mouth.


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## SerenityFL (Sep 28, 2010)

By the way, xxshaelxx, whenever I want to know the truth about something, I always ask this question:

Who benefits from this "fact"? Follow the money, you'll have your answer and you'll find out if it truly is fact or if it's all to line the pockets or exchange favors to a big corporation, administration, lobbyists, etc.

The reason this stuff works is because most people do NOT do any research. They trust way too much. "No way would my vet tell me to feed my pets something that wasn't good for them!" 

Yes, they would. Mainly because they don't know either!

People just take what they hear on t.v., take what they read on wikipedia or some other lame website, take what they hear from their neighbor as cold, hard fact without ever questioning. 

This is why it's so easy for industries to fool people because people are gullible. And most people do not like it one little bit when you show them that they have been made a fool of. They may not be mad at you, but they are mad and they will take it out on the messenger because it doesn't go in their world of, "these people wouldn't lie...why would they lie?"

Because they get money, favors, kickbacks....follow the money and you'll find your facts.


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## cprcheetah (Jul 14, 2010)

Unosmom said:


> Since I'll be going to school for a vet tech program, I get a feeling that I'll be in a world of utter frustration. The very last course I'll be taking is on nutrition, which I'm very curious about, heres the discription of it
> "Description
> This course covers the principles of nutrition and their application to feeding practices of domestic, farm, and companion animals. Topics include basic nutrients and nutritional needs of individual species, proximate analysis, interpretation of food and feed labels, types of animal foods, and ration formulation. Upon completion, students should be able to select appropriate diets for animals in various stages of health and disease, analyze nutrition labels, and identify foods."
> 
> ...


My dad (Veterinarian) taught at a Vet Tech School for a bit, when he taught the nutrition class he could ONLY teach about Science Diet products...so he told the students if they wanted to know about good nutrition and what he fed his dogs to call his office....we had a couple call and I sent them good information on food. So hopefully they will take heart & listen


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## xxshaelxx (Mar 8, 2010)

Back to square two. Overcame the obstacle of talking to her. Got her a bit more informed on vets and their nutritional knowledge, and got her more open to the idea of a GOOD food. BUT, the Felidae has lamb in it, and I didn't realize that Roxie is intolerant to lamb as well. So, looking at the salmon grain free, and other options. I learned how much she spends on her Prescription Diet ($20 for a 4lb bag!!!), so I have a bit more to work with in terms of money. Suggested Wellness CORE, but mum didn't like that there was one review on the Petco website that stated the person's cats wouldn't eat the food, but there is a warranty for the food that I didn't notice before, but now have to back me up on that. Blue Buffalo is an option, as is Solid Gold Indigo Moon. Currently looking up more options.


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## Ania's Mommy (Feb 8, 2009)

If I remember right, you can return food to Petco no problem. We once returned a 1/2 bag of Pukanuba after I saw the light. They're pretty good about that there.


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## cast71 (Sep 16, 2010)

Ania's Mommy said:


> If I remember right, you can return food to Petco no problem. We once returned a 1/2 bag of Pukanuba after I saw the light. They're pretty good about that there.


I don't know why, but it always makes me laugh when I see someone write pukanuba ahahahaha Yuckanuba isn't as funny for some reason:biggrin:


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## RachelsaurusRexU (Sep 4, 2010)

xxshaelxx said:


> Back to square two. Overcame the obstacle of talking to her. Got her a bit more informed on vets and their nutritional knowledge, and got her more open to the idea of a GOOD food. BUT, the Felidae has lamb in it, and I didn't realize that Roxie is intolerant to lamb as well. So, looking at the salmon grain free, and other options. I learned how much she spends on her Prescription Diet ($20 for a 4lb bag!!!), so I have a bit more to work with in terms of money. Suggested Wellness CORE, but mum didn't like that there was one review on the Petco website that stated the person's cats wouldn't eat the food, but there is a warranty for the food that I didn't notice before, but now have to back me up on that. Blue Buffalo is an option, as is Solid Gold Indigo Moon. Currently looking up more options.


How's it going with all this?


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## xxshaelxx (Mar 8, 2010)

She's gotta wait to talk to dad, and he's still in Michigan. DX


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## vigornj (Nov 4, 2010)

I feel your pain, one of my close friends is a vet tech, she think's her knowledge is quite superior than what it actually is. We constantly debate about food and she is 100% not willing to listen to my logic, now granted, I'm certainly not as knowledgeable as some of the people on this board. But I also know that crap like brewers rice, corn etc really doesn't have it's place in a carnivores diet.

Her last argument (which I refuted) was that people have evolved to eat different foods (grain in particular and processed foods), my argument was that humans are omnivores, but that argument failed as well 

Some people are just stubborn and aren't interested in different ideas and concepts than their own.


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