# Why I Don't Like Raw



## LabradorRetriever2009 (Jan 29, 2009)

I know a lot of people like raw feeding, but I thought I'd share some reasons why I do not like feeding raw and would never feed it to my dog. Raw feeding is a big lifestyle change for a dog. Also, it requires a wide variety of vitamins and supplements to keep the dog healthy and getting everything he needs in his diet. Next, it is very hard to feed raw food when traveling or boarding a dog. Once more, puppies, pregnant or nursing dogs, and any dog who is anemic should not be fed a raw diet. I do not like raw diets at all and have some very strong opinions and terrible experiences when it comes to feeding a raw diet to dogs.


----------



## LabradorRetriever2009 (Jan 29, 2009)

Believe it or not, how a whole-food diet should be fed is a contentious issue in the dog world. The issue is whether food should be raw or cooked. While raw-food proponents make a good arguemtn, I think the decision to feed a dog a raw-food diet should be approached very cautiously. Advocates of the BARF diet and other raw-food diets fundamentally believe that because dogs orginally ate raw food, they should still get their nutrients from fresh, raw foods. The theory is that the enzymes and nutrients a dog needs to remain healthy can be lost in the cooking process. Raw-food advocates report many health benefits from their diets, such as better breath and coat, longer life span and even cures for some diseases. Although the ingredients vary with the diet, raw-food diets usually consist of raw, meaty bones; raw muscle meat;raw organ meat - or any locally available meat, including beef, pork, poultry, rabbit or sheep. Raw fish, eggs, vegetables and ripe fruit; yogurt; cottage cheese; various yeasts; kep; and other natural supplements are also recomended. Depending on the diet, the quantity of grain included can range from very little to non at all.


----------



## LabradorRetriever2009 (Jan 29, 2009)

One the other side of the raw-food debate are those who argue that the potential risks associated with feeding a dog a diet of raw meat and bones far outweigh the possible beneifts. For starters, there is a very high potential for raw meat to be contaminated with salmonell and E. coli bacteria. These can pose a serious health threat not only to dogs but also to their significant humans, partically young children, elderly family members and people with compromised immune systems. All it may take to get infected is a lick on the face from a dog or contact with the contaminated food bowl. Some raw-food advocates argue that organically raised meat is less likely to be contaminated by bacteria and therefore safter to feed to a dog. This view, however, is not entirely correct. While the potential health risks associated with chemicals are eliminated, organically raised meat may be more at risks for these bacterial and parasitic contamination precisely because it lacks these additives. There are many reasons why organic meat may be preferable, but it must be thoroughly cooked in order to kill potentially harmful bacteria. Many testimonials allege that dogs fed raw-food diets have experienced dramatic improvements in their health.


----------



## rockymtsweetie82 (Jul 24, 2008)

I've been on this site for a little while and I've learned quite a bit from both the kibble side of feeding and the raw side of feeding. But I must say, Well put LR. I have never heard this much information in one sitting and am delighted to hear what kind of debate this raises. Thank you for that info. I will definitely be rethinking how to continue feeding my pups (they are on kibble fed right now). Thanks!


----------



## LabradorRetriever2009 (Jan 29, 2009)

Another concern is that some raw foods contain compenents that mayb interfere with the body's absility to use certain nutrients. When these foods are cooked, the harmful components are deactivated or detroyed, making them safer to confume. For instance, raw egg whites contain a protein called avidin, which binds up with biotin so that the body is unable to use it. Therefore, including too many raw eggs in a diet can cause a biotin deficiency. Cooking the eggs deactivates the avidin. Some types of fish contain a compound called thiaminase, which can interfere with the utilization of thiamin, one of the B vitamins. Cooking inactivates this compound, too. Raw salmond from the West Coast of North America presents an even more serious problem, as it may harbor a parasite that causes a canine condition known as salmon poisoning disease. This disease has symptoms that are similar to those of distemper or parvovirus and can be fatal is left untreated. Cooking the salmon kills this parasite.


----------



## rockymtsweetie82 (Jul 24, 2008)

So there is actually more of a benefit to feeding cooked food on some occasions. What about chicken, beef, pork? Aside from the salmonella and e-coli standard, since I already know where some of the raw feeders on here stand with that. (You could probably find it in the "Why Not" thread)


----------



## LabradorRetriever2009 (Jan 29, 2009)

Advocates of raw-food diets also recommend feeding bones to dogs to supply calcium. While a raw bone is les likely than a cooked bone to splinter and lodge in a dog's digestive tract, the risk is still present. Some raw-food proponents suggest that grinding the bones into a powder before feeding them to a dog eliminates this danger. However, it is still possible for dangerous splinters to be present if the bones have been less-than-thoroughly ground.


----------



## RawFedDogs (Jun 16, 2008)

LabradorRetriever2009 said:


> Raw feeding is a big lifestyle change for a dog.


Lifestyle change is not necessarily bad. The lifestyle change from eating exclusively a highly processed grain or potato based cereal every day of your life to eating raw meat, bones and organs is a very very positive lifestyle change that will increase health and longevity of a dog. Your dog would be many times better off if you reconsider and begin feeding a prey model raw diet.



> Also, it requires a wide variety of vitamins and supplements to keep the dog healthy and getting everything he needs in his diet.


There is no need to give vitamins or supplements to a dog on a prey model raw diet. Everything he needs is in the meat, bones, and organs of the animals he eats.



> Next, it is very hard to feed raw food when traveling or boarding a dog.


It's a little more difficult to feed than kibble which is made from the throw away garbage from the human food processing plants. It's not that much more difficult. I have done it many times.



> Once more, puppies, pregnant or nursing dogs, and any dog who is anemic should not be fed a raw diet.


The ideal diet to feed an anemic dog would be a raw diet. Isn't it amazing how wild dogs and wolves give birth while eating a prey model raw diet? I know many breeders who feed exclusively a raw diet to all their pregnant and nursing dogs. THese breeders wean their puppies directly to a raw diet. I know breeders who have 5 generations of raw fed dogs. Think about it ... no dog in 5 generations were fed garbage ... isn't that great? :smile:



> I do not like raw diets at all and have some very strong opinions and terrible experiences when it comes to feeding a raw diet to dogs.


I don't think you are old enough, experienced enough, know enought people or have done enough research to make a statement like that. I am on other lists with 11,000+ members who feed raw. I have been feeding exclusively a prey model raw diet to 4 dogs and 2 cats for almost 7 years. I personally know people who have been feeding prey model raw for 30+ years. Your previous statement is entirely without merit.


----------



## rockymtsweetie82 (Jul 24, 2008)

What about a kibble fed diet with their own raw meal in between?


----------



## LabradorRetriever2009 (Jan 29, 2009)

Dogs and cats have been domesticated for thousands of years. How safe are these diets? Pets are just as susceptible to the bacteria and parasites in raw meat as humans are. The problem with these 'natural' diets is the misguided assumption that 'natural' is better. Many raw food proponents theorize that freezing meat will kill bacteria. Proponents also theorize that bacteria is destroyed by stomach acid. Cats are also susceptible to bacteria found in raw meats. In March 2001, the Journal of the American Veterinary Medical Association published a paper written by Lisa M. Freeman, DVM, and Kathyrn E. Michel, DVM, and their evaluation of raw food diets for dogs. To date, there are no studies that conclude that raw diets are healthful for pets. Many diets also encourage the feeding of raw bones. You also have to consider the damage to teeth by chewing on raw, meaty bones. Raw food proponents also contend that a cooked diet removes enzymes from food, yet many add digestive enzymes to the raw diet as well. Enzymes are proteins. My puppy isn't a wild animal, and I refuse to risk his health with diets that have caused illness and death.


----------



## LabradorRetriever2009 (Jan 29, 2009)

Pets are just as vulnerable to the microorganisms and vermin in uncooked animal protein as humans are. The US Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) has found that a high proportion of animal protein and fowl contains at least one strain of microorganisms. Toxoplasmosis, a scrounger found in warm-blooded animals, can also be transmitted from uncooked or rare animal protein. David T. Roan, DVM, writes, "A veterinary neurologist told me the other day that they have seen au increase in seizure disorders in dogs and cats caused by toxoplasmosis, especially in areas where raw meat diets are trendy." Many raw food proponents hypothesize that freezing meat will kill bacteria. Not so. Laboratories protect microorganisms and viruses by freezing them. Cooking animal protein is the best way to eliminate the potential for illness. Proponents also hypothesize that bacteria are destroyed by stomach acid. But Sharon Gwaltney-Brant, DVM, from the National Animal Poison Control Center, disagrees. "Pathogens such as salmonella, E. coli, clostridium and campylobacter have evolved 'coats' that protect them in their transit through the stomach, and this allows them to take hold in the intestines," she says. This could be the reason of the harsh diarrhea some raw food people attribute to "detoxing."


----------



## LabradorRetriever2009 (Jan 29, 2009)

Cats are also vulnerable to microorganisms found in raw meats. A case study, published in 2003 in the Journal of the American Animal Hospital Association, involved cats that developed salmonellas as a consequence of a raw diet. "The salmonellas caused gastrointestinal upset, weight loss and anorexia, leading to both cats' deaths." Salmonella cultures from one cat were identical to cultures from the uncooked meat the cat was fed. "The resulting infection was confirmed as cause of death in both cases," the study said.


----------



## LabradorRetriever2009 (Jan 29, 2009)

In March 2001, the Journal of the American Veterinary Medical Association published a document written by Lisa M. Freeman, DVM, and Kathyrn E. Michel, DVM, and their evaluation of raw food diets for dogs. Five diets were tested; three were home-based, and the other two commercial. The findings of Freeman and Michel pointed out a number of problems with uncooked diets, including low phosphorus and potassium levels, calcium-to-phosphorus ratios of 0.15 and high concentrations of zinc--all of which are areas of concern with growing puppies. One of the home-based diets yielded E. coli 0157:H7, which has been attributed to death in humans. Said the authors: "The results ... indicated that there are nourishment and health risks associated with raw food diets."


----------



## RawFedDogs (Jun 16, 2008)

LabradorRetriever2009 said:


> Believe it or not, how a whole-food diet should be fed is a contentious issue in the dog world.


Not by people who have actually fed raw for more than a few months.



> Advocates of the BARF diet and other raw-food diets fundamentally believe that because dogs orginally ate raw food, they should still get their nutrients from fresh, raw foods.


Stop and think about that statement a minute. Dogs/wolves have been eating and flourishing on a prey model raw diet for millions of years. If it weren't the perfect diet for them, they would have gone extinct hundreds of thousands of years ago. Kibble has only been around 50 or so years. It is the fad diet of garbage and chemicals. It is a highly processed grain based cereal. What thinking person would feed cereal to a carnivore?



> The theory is that the enzymes and nutrients a dog needs to remain healthy can be lost in the cooking process.


Thats not a theory. It's a fact. No one disputes that cooking destroys nutrients.



> Raw-food advocates report many health benefits from their diets, such as better breath and coat, longer life span and even cures for some diseases.


We don't "report it" ... we actually whitness it with every dog we switch to raw. I have helped switch many many dogs to a raw diet and these imporvements and many more you didn't mention actually happen. They have been observed by thousands of people. We don't just read this stuff in a book.



> Although the ingredients vary with the diet, raw-food diets usually consist of raw, meaty bones; raw muscle meat;raw organ meat - or any locally available meat, including beef, pork, poultry, rabbit or sheep. Raw fish, eggs, vegetables and ripe fruit; yogurt; cottage cheese; various yeasts; kep; and other natural supplements are also recomended. Depending on the diet, the quantity of grain included can range from very little to non at all.


I feed my dogs meat, bones, and organs only. NO plant material whatsoever. THey are carnivores. They don't need plant material. Their bodies were designed to digest animals only. They do not have the ability to digest unprocessed plant material.

They health of the dog has gone way downhill since the introduction of kibble. Your parents are probably not old enough to remember but I do. Before kibble, it was unheard of for a dog to have an allergy. Dogs NEVER had digestive problems at all. Dogs lived longer. Just about the only reason a vet saw a dog for was an injury. Rarely an illness of any kind. The only coat problems dogs had was occasional mainge. Hot Spots never happened.


----------



## LabradorRetriever2009 (Jan 29, 2009)

It's clear that puppies can suffer nutritional inadequacies on a raw food diet. This has some potential public health concerns for both the animals being fed these diets and their human owners. There is a greater apparent risk to animals and humans from feeding a raw meat diet. I really do not think that there is any advice we, as veterinarians, can give to improve safety. You can give basic food safety guidelines like hand washing, cleaning surfaces, and bowls, etc., not letting the food sit out for extended periods of time. I just think that it would be a disservice for a veterinarian to give any recommendation for the safety of dogs and their owners (except to not feed raw meat to pets). Bacteria are not the only health concern, there are also parasites and protozoal organisms that can be transmitted in raw meat, even meat labeled fit for human consumption. From my own clinical experience, owners that feed raw (meat) pretty much have their minds set that they are going to feed raw. There have also been very high levels of salmonella in meat lately. Levels have been on an upward trend and we certainly share U.S.D.A.'s concern.


----------



## LabradorRetriever2009 (Jan 29, 2009)

Eight million years ago in what is now the Great Plains of North America two archetypes of early canid ancestors competed. Another early canid named Eucyon shared time and space with Epicyon. The larger Epicyon followed its very large prey into extinction. Eucyon migrated into the Old World and eventually evolved into modern wolves. Robert Wayne PhD, geneticist at the University of California at Los Angeles examined DNA in dogs and wolves. Wayne's work included 147 dogs representing 67 breeds and 162 wild canids of all species from around the world. Prior to this study, domestic dogs were thought to have originated only 14,000 years ago. This type of maternally passed DNA changes at a specific rate. "We expected to find DNA sequences in dogs that were closely related to those in wolves, perhaps even indistinguishable from those in wolves," Wayne said. Wayne found no evidence to support dogs evolved from jackals or coyotes. The researchers found four distinct genetic groups in the dog world. In a similar study conducted by Vila and Maldonado at the Department of Evolutionary Biology, Uppsala University in Sweden, maternal DNA showed a separation of 135,000 years between modern domestic dogs and wolves.


----------



## LabradorRetriever2009 (Jan 29, 2009)

Coyote, fox, and jackal DNA differ greatly from that of modern dog. Any comparison to this group of wild canids with domestic dogs is without merit, leaving the wolf as the only closely related wild canid. The carnivora genus also includes purely herbivorous animals like the Giant Panda Bear (Ailuropoda melanoleuca). In a suggested symbiotic relationship, domestic dog predecessors must have gathered around the campfires of early man to scavenge from the left over trash. As a consequence of natural selection those animals which survived also passed on a specific pool of genetic material. Less and less threatening animals, more and more helpful animals, and animals better suited to survive on scavenged human trash would be the winners in the DNA lottery. Evolution and mutation of the actual genetics of the wild canid ancestor were required to begin the process of domestication. Some genetic mutation was required. If not, then today's wild wolf puppies tamed from birth would be capable of domestication. Proponents of BARF claim that domestic dogs and wild canids are alike in their nutritional needs. Barfers' would have you believe that while the domestic dog developed eating anything and everything man threw away over the last 100,000 years, no variation in nutrient needs or digestive abilities developed.


----------



## LabradorRetriever2009 (Jan 29, 2009)

One of many good examples of internal changes that natural selection wrought is a significant difference in the eye of modern wolves and modern domestic dogs. A prominent feature of wolf retinae was a pronounced "visual streak" of high ganglion cell density. The estimated total number of ganglion cells averaged about 200,000 cells in the wolf and 115,000 in the dog. Yet Barfers' would have you believe there are neither biological nor physiological differences between the two. Further evidence of evolutionary changes in the dog compared to the wolf abounds in the literature. Differences in musculature, tendon strength, gut wall arterials and many other distinct differences in the internal organs and abilities are described. The Barfer emotional decisions to compare the feeding habits of wild canids to domestic dogs is without scientific foundation and places the domestic dog at risk. Comparing the needs of the current wolf to domestic dogs is not based in fact and certainly not based on 100,000 of years of natural selection and mutation inexorably forcing genetic change. The ancestors of today's domestic dog excelled at living on human trash that contained both raw and cooked meats, vegetables and grains.


----------



## RawFedDogs (Jun 16, 2008)

LabradorRetriever2009 said:


> For starters, there is a very high potential for raw meat to be contaminated with salmonell and E. coli bacteria.
> 
> 
> > Those two things are not an issue. Yes, dogs eat contaminated meat. I personally have fed my dogs meat that smelled so bad I had to deoderize the kitchen after they ate. There was no ill effect. Dogs digestive juices are very acidic. So acidic as to kill these bacteria in the stomach. Their short intestines allow the meat to exit the body before the little bacteria that remains to cause any harm.
> ...


----------



## LabradorRetriever2009 (Jan 29, 2009)

Barfers' frequently infer that domestic dogs are plagued with disease and live miserable lives when fed a commercial food. The majority of such purported increased disease they attribute to domestic animals eating a prepared food and not eating a BARF diet. The domestic dog's lifespan has increased monumentally over just the past fifty years. Barfers' would suggest that we should imitate the food intake of wild wolves and other canids. The wolf on the other hand separated from the domestic dogs 100,000 years ago and is a distant ancestor. Grey Wolf lifespan 8 years in the wild, slightly more in captivity when fed commercial foods. Mexican Wolf lifespan 15 years in captivity, less in wild. Red Wolf lifespan 4 years in the wild up to 14 in captivity (fed commercial foods). Obviously a multitude of factors influence lifespan. Smaller breeds typically live longer among both domestic dogs and their wild cousins. It is interesting to note that feeding commercial pet foods to wild canids is the recommendation of the American Zoo and Aquarium, Nutritional Advisory Group. While the Barfers are busy claiming domestic dogs should mirror the feeding habits of wild wolves, the very people who know the most about caring for wild canids recommend the feeding of a "commercial pet food" to wild canids.


----------



## RawFedDogs (Jun 16, 2008)

LabradorRetriever2009 said:


> Cats are also vulnerable to microorganisms found in raw meats. A case study, published in 2003 in the Journal of the American Animal Hospital Association, involved cats that developed salmonellas as a consequence of a raw diet. "The salmonellas caused gastrointestinal upset, weight loss and anorexia, leading to both cats' deaths." Salmonella cultures from one cat were identical to cultures from the uncooked meat the cat was fed. "The resulting infection was confirmed as cause of death in both cases," the study said.


I'd be very interested in seeing that study. As someone who has fed a raw diet to cats for 7 years and several times have fed meats that was pretty rotten, I just don't believe it.


----------



## LabradorRetriever2009 (Jan 29, 2009)

It's important to recognize that as more common causes of death are reduced, other forms of death must necessarily increase. Common diseases like distemper, parvovirus, and others are responsible for fewer deaths each year as a larger and larger population of immune animals exists to slow the transmission of these diseases by reducing the pool of possible victims. Domestic dog life spans have been rapidly increasing over the past half century. 25 year old Yorkies, 25 year old cats, and 15 year old Rottweilers are no longer astounding and amazing rarities. Evidence is also mounting of other issues relative to BARF feeding. In a large study conducted by Dr. Joe Bartges, Dr. Jean Dodds and Dr. Susan Wynn, they looked at blood work from over 200 BARF dogs, and compared it to 75 dogs eating 'normal' diets and used by the lab for reference values. ncreased BUN is one of the most critical values examined when looking for renal failure. One common comment from the Barfer world details supposed increased "immunity" and freedom from parasites and disease. In regards to parasites; the wild wolf that eats only a BARF diet is also equally susceptible to internal and external parasites and other canine diseases.


----------



## RawFedDogs (Jun 16, 2008)

LabradorRetriever2009 said:


> Another concern is that some raw foods contain compenents that mayb interfere with the body's absility to use certain nutrients. When these foods are cooked, the harmful components are deactivated or detroyed, making them safer to confume.


Stop and think about that. It that was true, dogs/wolves would have gone extinct many thousands of years ago. They have thrived for millions of years by eating only raw meat, bones, and organs from a variety of animals.



> For instance, raw egg whites contain a protein called avidin, which binds up with biotin so that the body is unable to use it. Therefore, including too many raw eggs in a diet can cause a biotin deficiency. Cooking the eggs deactivates the avidin.


That myth has been floating around the internet for years. It's been disproven many times. I feed my dogs raw eggs at least once a week.



> Some types of fish contain a compound called thiaminase, which can interfere with the utilization of thiamin, one of the B vitamins. Cooking inactivates this compound, too.


Thats a myth I haven't heard yet.



> Raw salmond from the West Coast of North America presents an even more serious problem, as it may harbor a parasite that causes a canine condition known as salmon poisoning disease. This disease has symptoms that are similar to those of distemper or parvovirus and can be fatal is left untreated. Cooking the salmon kills this parasite.


As does freezing for a few weeks.


----------



## rockymtsweetie82 (Jul 24, 2008)

Hey let me put my 2 cents in. Even though I can tell you both are having such a wonderful debate here. My mom's GSD lived to be what, 15 years old?? She was fed a kibble diet. I know many many dogs that are fed kibble, have lived to be quite a many years (around 13-15) and were healthy all their lives. I feed my dogs a kibble diet. I give them both cooked and raw meat, I also feed them veggies and fruits on occasion. They are both healthy.


----------



## RawFedDogs (Jun 16, 2008)

LabradorRetriever2009 said:


> Advocates of raw-food diets also recommend feeding bones to dogs to supply calcium. While a raw bone is les likely than a cooked bone to splinter and lodge in a dog's digestive tract, the risk is still present.


Bones are like bacteria. These two objects are the cause of a lot of fear among non-rawfeeders. Bones, like bacteria, are just not a problem. Dogs have been eating bones for millions of years. Their bodies are well equipped to eat and digest bones and they know how to do it. Again if bones were as big a problem as they are given credit for, wolves/dogs would have gone extinct many thousands of years ago.

After spending 7 years on a raw feeding list with 11,000 other raw feeders, I heard of 2 dogs that had a problem with a bone. Those 11,000 people probably own a total of 20,000 dogs. I think that shows how little danger bones are.



> Some raw-food proponents suggest that grinding the bones into a powder before feeding them to a dog eliminates this danger. However, it is still possible for dangerous splinters to be present if the bones have been less-than-thoroughly ground.


I don't grind or recommend grinding. Bone phobia causes some uninformed people to grind bones. I think it does more harm than good to grind.


----------



## RawFedDogs (Jun 16, 2008)

LabradorRetriever2009 said:


> Dogs and cats have been domesticated for thousands of years. How safe are these diets?


Domestication does not change digestive system.



> Pets are just as susceptible to the bacteria and parasites in raw meat as humans are.


I think I have already disproved that.



> The problem with these 'natural' diets is the misguided assumption that 'natural' is better.


It definately is better. Any nutritionist will tell you whole food is better than processed food. The overall health of both the dog world and human world has gone down since the appearance of processed foods.



> Many raw food proponents theorize that freezing meat will kill bacteria.


Freezing doesn't kill bacteria. It does stop the growth of bacteria but it resumes growing when thawing occurs.



> Proponents also theorize that bacteria is destroyed by stomach acid.


And opponents of raw feeding incorrectly theorize that bacteria is a big problem with raw food being fed to dogs. My Skylar used to eat road kill squirrels when she could get one. Some of these squirrels had been deat a week or more an laying out in the hot Georgia sunshine. Some had maggots growing in them. She ate them will no ill effect. No vomiting. No diarrhea.



> Cats are also susceptible to bacteria found in raw meats. In March 2001, the Journal of the American Veterinary Medical Association published a paper written by Lisa M. Freeman, DVM, and Kathyrn E. Michel, DVM, and their evaluation of raw food diets for dogs.


I don't believe it. I'd like to see this study. Know where I can see it?



> To date, there are no studies that conclude that raw diets are healthful for pets.


Millions of years of evolution say it is healthier. Dogs and cats have been eating raw meat, bones, and organs for millions of years. They have only been eating kibble for about 50 years. There are no studies that say kibble is more healthy than raw. So since there are no studies either way, will you believe millions of years or 50 years?



> Many diets also encourage the feeding of raw bones. You also have to consider the damage to teeth by chewing on raw, meaty bones.


Chewing bones are healthier for teeth and kibble or canned dog food. Raw fed dogs have whiter teeth and NEVER and I mean NEVER need their teeth clean. My almost 9yo Great Dane Abby has teeth that look white as a new born puppy. They have never been cleaned in her life. 

I had two Golden Retrievers who the vet was after me for 2 years to clean their brown tarter filled teeth. After 2 months on raw, chewing bones, the vet asked me how I got those teeth so clean. When they diet at 12 years of age, their teeth were perfectly white.



> Raw food proponents also contend that a cooked diet removes enzymes from food, yet many add digestive enzymes to the raw diet as well. Enzymes are proteins. My puppy isn't a wild animal, and I refuse to risk his health with diets that have caused illness and death.


WE don't "contend". It's a proven fact. Any nutritionist will confirm that. I must inform you that your puppy is a wolf. He has exactly the same digestive system as a wild wolf. His whole digestive system from his teeth to his anus are designed to eat meat, bones, and organs from a variety of animals. His body is incapable of digesting unprocessed plant material. He is a carnivore. Carnivores eat meat, bones, and organs.

He is much much more likey to die from kibble than he is from a prey model raw diet. There is no dog that has been made ill by a raw diet. More dogs have died from kibble than raw. Litterally 1,000s of kibble fed dogs have died as a result of eating kibble in the last few years.


----------



## whiteleo (Sep 7, 2008)

RFD, Lab2009, isn't even reading your posts, their just going on their rant against raw feeding. I think maybe either they sell kibble or work in a clinic is my guess. Quite interesting though, since my dogs have done so much better health wise since being on
a raw diet, and as far as the kennel situation goes, where we would send our dogs for boarding the owners raw feed thier "portugese water dogs" and bringing in raw is not a problem.


----------



## rannmiller (Jun 27, 2008)

LabradorRetriever2009 said:


> Another concern is that some raw foods contain compenents that mayb interfere with the body's absility to use certain nutrients. When these foods are cooked, the harmful components are deactivated or detroyed, making them safer to confume. For instance, raw egg whites contain a protein called avidin, which binds up with biotin so that the body is unable to use it. Therefore, including too many raw eggs in a diet can cause a biotin deficiency. Cooking the eggs deactivates the avidin. Some types of fish contain a compound called thiaminase, which can interfere with the utilization of thiamin, one of the B vitamins. Cooking inactivates this compound, too. Raw salmond from the West Coast of North America presents an even more serious problem, as it may harbor a parasite that causes a canine condition known as salmon poisoning disease. This disease has symptoms that are similar to those of distemper or parvovirus and can be fatal is left untreated. Cooking the salmon kills this parasite.


This is a ridiculous argument. Okay fine if I fed my dogs 4 raw eggs per day every day, then this problem might occur. Since my dogs get a raw egg one or two times a week, this is hardly a problem with pups. Also, if you're that paranoid about egg whites, then separate the eggs and use the whites for yourself and feed the shell and yolk to your dogs. Cooking it not only deactiviates the avidin compound, it destroys several key enzymes your dog needs to digest it efficiently so you've made the egg less nutritious for the dog. Everything in moderation, my friend. 

Also, I'm pretty sure everyone knows better than to feed raw North American salmon by now. Big whoop dee doo, because guess what, there's still other fish in the sea - literally! Don't want to feed raw salmon? Feed raw tilapia or canned salmon or canned mackerel. Problem solved!


----------



## rannmiller (Jun 27, 2008)

Yeah it seems like LR2009 is just copying and pasting this from a bad vet clinic or Science Diet website without actually reading any of your arguments or comments. Ah well, you'll always get that one person who thinks that since dogs no longer sleep outside and get hit by cars so their lifespans are now longer, it must be because of all the cereal-based kibble they eat. 

He's right, kibble doesn't kill dogs, it just causes all the problems that kill dogs such as: kidney failure, thyroid disease, pancreatitis, cancer, etc. 

But of course, it's the salmonella and bones we have to be scared of!


----------



## RawFedDogs (Jun 16, 2008)

LabradorRetriever2009 said:


> The findings of Freeman and Michel pointed out a number of problems with uncooked diets, including low phosphorus and potassium levels, calcium-to-phosphorus ratios of 0.15 and high concentrations of zinc--all of which are areas of concern with growing puppies.


Hmmmm ... it's amazing how healthy these raw fed dogs are and raw fed puppies as well. Makes you wonder how important all those numbers are doesn't it? :smile:



> One of the home-based diets yielded E. coli 0157:H7, which has been attributed to death in humans.


Isn't it amazing that the study doesn't report any deaths to any of these dogs nor of their owners. Didn't I mention earlier that bacteria wasn't a problem?



> Said the authors: "The results ... indicated that there are nourishment and health risks associated with raw food diets."


But the dogs are healthy. Far healthier than kibble fed dogs. I can't tell you how many kibble fed dogs I know of who had chronic health problems that disappeared after being switched to raw.

Do you thnk there is no bacteria in kibble? No salmonella in kibble? No e-coli in kibble? Well let me inform you that those bacteria can and is present in kibble.


----------



## rannmiller (Jun 27, 2008)

Hence many of the recent recalls due to salmonella contamination. Hmmmm!


----------



## RawFedDogs (Jun 16, 2008)

LabradorRetriever2009 said:


> > Proponents also hypothesize that bacteria are destroyed by stomach acid.
> 
> 
> Something happens to it somewhere because dog nor humans that come in contact with dogs don't get sick from thiem.
> ...


Well, this is just silly. If that were true, all the raw fed dogs would be falling over dead all over the place. Surely my dogs would have been dead by now.

Poor old Sharon has no clue what she is talking about. The condition that some people attribute to "detoxing" is the dogs body learning to digest real food. After digesting nothing but highly processed cereal all it's life, the dogs body doesn't normally product the digestive enzymes needed to digest real meat. Some few dogs, when first switched to a raw diet, will exhibit diarrhea for a couple of days to a couple of weeks as it's body adjusts to secreting the proper chemicals to digest this new food it has never seen before. Most dogs don't have this problem but a few do. Seems the older a dog is, the more likely this will happen.


----------



## rannmiller (Jun 27, 2008)

So Lab2009 is a vet assistant studying to be vet tech working at a vet clinic which would greatly explain his hatred, poor arguments and lack of knowledge against raw food.


----------



## RawFedDogs (Jun 16, 2008)

LabradorRetriever2009 said:


> It's clear that puppies can suffer nutritional inadequacies on a raw food diet. ... bla bla bla ... There have also been very high levels of salmonella in meat lately. Levels have been on an upward trend and we certainly share U.S.D.A.'s concern.


But there have been no reports of increase of dogs dying or getting sick from salmonella.

Why don't you just save us all a LOT of trouble and just paste the link you are pasing all this garbage from. I also suggest you actually feed a dog a raw diet for a few m onths before you present yourself as an expert on the subject.


----------



## rockymtsweetie82 (Jul 24, 2008)

I am hoping to be a vet spec someday but I am on here to really learn the difference so that when they try to brainwash me, it just slides right back out my ears HEHE. All of this has me very tempted to switch to raw but I'm still very confused about where to get the meat (someone said never walmart) or how much to feed one dog to the next dog, or how to keep my kids and dogs safe from one another when the dogs are eating the meat....GAH confused!!!!


----------



## ChattyCathy (Nov 22, 2008)

rockymtsweetie82 said:


> I've been on this site for a little while and I've learned quite a bit from both the kibble side of feeding and the raw side of feeding. But I must say, Well put LR. I have never heard this much information in one sitting and am delighted to hear what kind of debate this raises. Thank you for that info. I will definitely be rethinking how to continue feeding my pups (they are on kibble fed right now). Thanks!


WOW! I have to agree w/rockymtsweetie82.... I've been thinking of switching and still on the fence. And, you have a lot of info to share w/us who are not raw feeders. THANK YOU! :biggrin:


----------



## ChattyCathy (Nov 22, 2008)

rockymtsweetie82 said:


> I am hoping to be a vet spec someday but I am on here to really learn the difference so that when they try to brainwash me, it just slides right back out my ears HEHE. All of this has me very tempted to switch to raw but I'm still very confused about where to get the meat (someone said never walmart) or how much to feed one dog to the next dog, or how to keep my kids and dogs safe from one another when the dogs are eating the meat....GAH confused!!!!


I'm w/you there too!!!!


----------



## rannmiller (Jun 27, 2008)

It's easy. I buy most of my dog's meat from WalMart, there is very little difference in the types of meat and short of getting it straight off a farm somewhere, Walmart meat is human grade meat (which is more than you can say for most pet food brands, and the most you can say for those that are). Get your meat from a grocery store and you will be fine. Dogs can eat rotting roadkill carcasses, I don't think the place you buy their meat from really makes that big of a difference :smile:

How much to feed is simple, for an adult dog you feed 2 - 3% of their ideal body weight. To do this you take an ordinary calculator, put in your dog's ideal weight, multiply it by .02 or .03 and voila, you have the approximate weight of how much each meal should weigh. For example, my Penny should weigh 45 lbs ideally, so multiply that by .02 (because she tends to gain weight easily) = .9lbs of food per day. One chicken leg quarter weighs approximately 1 lb, so I'm set feeding her one chicken leg quarter per day. 

For puppies, do 10% of their current weight until it exceeds 2 - 3% of their ideal adult weight. If Duckie should get up to 20 lbs full grown, feed him no more than .6 lbs of food per day. So about 1 chicken drumstick per day. Adjust it according to how he maintains his body condition (obviously you don't want to over feed him). 

To keep kids safe from dogs while dogs are eating, put the dogs outside or in a separate room with a closed door while they eat. My dogs eat mostly on my back patio, every now and then they feel like going onto the lawn to eat it too. Either way is fine.


----------



## claybuster (Dec 18, 2008)

whiteleo said:


> RFD, Lab2009, isn't even reading your posts, their just going on their rant against raw feeding. I think maybe either they sell kibble or work in a clinic is my guess. Quite interesting though, since my dogs have done so much better health wise since being on
> a raw diet, and as far as the kennel situation goes, where we would send our dogs for boarding the owners raw feed thier "portugese water dogs" and bringing in raw is not a problem.


It smells like plagiarism to me big time, one big cut and paste job.


----------



## claybuster (Dec 18, 2008)

LabradorRetriever2009 said:


> Another concern is that some raw foods contain compenents that mayb interfere with the body's absility to use certain nutrients.


Only if it is one of those modern raw diets commercially sold with fiber and plant matter.


----------



## ChattyCathy (Nov 22, 2008)

I am one who Loves to "listen" to a good debate anyime, anywhere. But, LR2009, it seems you are just "THROWING" information at us and not responding to any of RFD's or RM's responses/concerns. I'm getting information override here from your posts. I'd rather see you respond to RM & RFD concerns on kibble, etc. so that I can see both sides of the story. Just my opinion! :biggrin:


----------



## rockymtsweetie82 (Jul 24, 2008)

rannmiller said:


> It's easy. I buy most of my dog's meat from WalMart, there is very little difference in the types of meat and short of getting it straight off a farm somewhere, Walmart meat is human grade meat (which is more than you can say for most pet food brands, and the most you can say for those that are). Get your meat from a grocery store and you will be fine. Dogs can eat rotting roadkill carcasses, I don't think the place you buy their meat from really makes that big of a difference :smile:
> 
> How much to feed is simple, for an adult dog you feed 2 - 3% of their ideal body weight. To do this you take an ordinary calculator, put in your dog's ideal weight, multiply it by .02 or .03 and voila, you have the approximate weight of how much each meal should weigh. For example, my Penny should weigh 45 lbs ideally, so multiply that by .02 (because she tends to gain weight easily) = .9lbs of food per day. One chicken leg quarter weighs approximately 1 lb, so I'm set feeding her one chicken leg quarter per day.
> 
> ...


Really? Only a lb of meat per day for China and about a 1/2 for Duckie? That's easy enough. Thanks!


----------



## Postal (Jan 23, 2009)

I don't think lab is going to respond..

You know, for once I want to see someone come on here and say "Wow, I switched from RAW feeding of 2 years to a good ol' kibble diet and my dog's energy has sky rocketed, his coat is SO soft and shiny, his teeth are BLEACH white and he just turns his nose up at a chicken leg! It's amazing!"

Heh.. instead the only ones that fight kibble fights are the ones that read what vets or nutrionists "believe" about any certain lifestyle choices about our pets. Your dog has at LEAST 10 years to live, and with so many variations of ways for your pets to acquire nutrition, why can't people just TRY it before they come on here running their mouth about what doctor said what and who's doctor has the most persuasive tongue.

You know, my doctor told me about a month ago that I simply had a sinus infection, to go home with some sudafed and take a nap, even after I told him about my annual fight with bronchitis and that I was SURE that's what the problem was, to just give me some meds. Well, 2 weeks later I'm in urgent care with what felt like a kidney stone. The pain was so bad and was about half way down my back on the right side. The "new" doctor told me I now had pneumonia on my lungs and to take a couple days off work with vicodin and 7 days of anti-biotics. Well, I'm now 2 weeks into, the pain has not only come back, but is now affecting my left side and a little more on my right in the front as well. I'll be going back and slapping some doctors around probably by monday if the pain doesn't go away, but that just goes to show you they DON'T always know. It's like finding a good mechanic, you trust they know what they are talking about because they wear the label.

Try it before you buy it.

/end rant


----------



## Postal (Jan 23, 2009)

And btw, I'm on day 3 of raw fed and I am already excited about what will be on sale at HEB this weekend. Brian is loving it. When i would feed kibble, he would eat a couple bites and go run off to play with the cat, then come back for some more about 5 minutes later. When I pull a chicken quarter out of it's ziploc, his tail wags so hard he looks like he's dancing. He immediately goes into a sit position (i make him sit and/or lay down before he gets to eat) and his tongue falls out. When I throw it on his "eating towel", he will lay there for 2 hours just chewing on the chicken. Not even the cat playing with his tail distracts his attention from his newfound love for food 

Compare that with kibble.


----------



## whiteleo (Sep 7, 2008)

Isn't that the truth, my Bull Terriers weren't all that interested in food before, probably 
because of the diarrhea bouts, but now it's amazing how they love to eat!


----------



## Postal (Jan 23, 2009)

whiteleo said:


> Isn't that the truth, my Bull Terriers weren't all that interested in food before, probably
> because of the diarrhea bouts, but now it's amazing how they love to eat!


I know! And sometimes it's actually fun to sit and watch him eat, too. It's just cool the different teeth they use for tearing, breaking the bones and how they nibble some parts.. Pretty cool


----------



## rannmiller (Jun 27, 2008)

Yay! I'm so happy you're giving raw a try and it's working so well for you. My dogs used to be pretty excited to eat when they were on kibble and they would bolt it as fast as they could then look like they were gonna throw up afterwards. My little guy sometimes took some coaxing to eat too if I added anything different to it. 

Now as soon as they think it's time for me to feed them they immediately start whining and prancing around like "Come on! I wanna eat!" and when I get that bag of chicken from the fridge, forget about! They're all over me running around then head straight for the patio door and practically break it down so they can get outside and get their food. And like I've said before, I still love watching them eat. They've all always been chewers so they always get this look of euphoria on their faces as they chew through the bones and meat, it's adorable. I love making my dogs so happy every day :biggrin:


----------



## RawFedDogs (Jun 16, 2008)

Postal said:


> but that just goes to show you they DON'T always know.


Hehe, thats why doctors "practice", they don't really "do". :smile:


----------



## rannmiller (Jun 27, 2008)

Oh yeah, sorry you're in pain! I hope you feel better soon, I hate getting sick, even with a cold! I got bronchitis last year, boy was that fun. Nothing but colds this year though *fingers crossed*

Feel better!


----------



## Postal (Jan 23, 2009)

rannmiller said:


> Oh yeah, sorry you're in pain! I hope you feel better soon, I hate getting sick, even with a cold! I got bronchitis last year, boy was that fun. Nothing but colds this year though *fingers crossed*
> 
> Feel better!


Thanks. The pain has went down a little, but I have plenty of Vicodin and muscle relaxers from my car accident a year ago to keep me going if it does flare up. I'll be alright, though 

And the euphoria comment, so true. My dog is in bliss when he's gnawing on that chicken quarter heh.


----------



## Guest (Jan 30, 2009)

Postal said:


> And btw, I'm on day 3 of raw fed and I am already excited about what will be on sale at HEB this weekend. Brian is loving it. When i would feed kibble, he would eat a couple bites and go run off to play with the cat, then come back for some more about 5 minutes later. When I pull a chicken quarter out of it's ziploc, his tail wags so hard he looks like he's dancing.


So, no more Natural Balance for you, Brian.


----------



## Postal (Jan 23, 2009)

LabbieMama said:


> So, no more Natural Balance for you, Brian.


lol.. well, to be completely honest, I haven't FULLY gotten Brian off the kibble. I just spent $50 on this bag of food and have wasted tons of money shifting around kibble until finally settling on the raw diet. He gets kibble with an egg and supplements in the morning. RAW diet is his dinner meal. Once he's out of kibble, I'm gonna start using RAW for his morning meal as well. I just need more knowledge and access to the cheaper meats before I fully submerge him into the diet.

But, whether I'm ready or not by time the kibble is gone, he's off kibble for good, yes. Natural Balance has been good to me, but not RAW good :wink:


----------



## rannmiller (Jun 27, 2008)

Haha, nice! Do you have a super Walmart near you where you can get his raw from? Wait, you just answered that in another post. 

Well if I can feed three dogs affordably on raw, then you can certainly feed one dog affordably on raw!


----------



## Postal (Jan 23, 2009)

Good, that sounds promising :smile:

Walmart is probably going to start seeing a lot of me.. and I have an ethnic market about 5 blocks from me I'll be looking into as well..


----------



## ChattyCathy (Nov 22, 2008)

Postal said:


> You know, my doctor told me about a month ago that I simply had a sinus infection, to go home with some sudafed and take a nap, even after I told him about my annual fight with bronchitis and that I was SURE that's what the problem was, to just give me some meds. Well, 2 weeks later I'm in urgent care with what felt like a kidney stone. The pain was so bad and was about half way down my back on the right side. The "new" doctor told me I now had pneumonia on my lungs and to take a couple days off work with vicodin and 7 days of anti-biotics. Well, I'm now 2 weeks into, the pain has not only come back, but is now affecting my left side and a little more on my right in the front as well. I'll be going back and slapping some doctors around probably by monday if the pain doesn't go away, but that just goes to show you they DON'T always know. It's like finding a good mechanic, you trust they know what they are talking about because they wear the label.
> 
> Try it before you buy it.
> 
> /end rant


OMG!!!! How you doing? That's awful... I hope you're ok... Please let me know... my prayers go out to you. That's the rub.... people think just because these people are Doctors, Veterinarians, Professional bla bla's they are like God and are all knowing. Give me a break... they aren't and don't know everything. Unfortunately, sometimes we have to learn this the hard way.



Postal said:


> You know, for once I want to see someone come on here and say "Wow, I switched from RAW feeding of 2 years to a good ol' kibble diet and my dog's energy has sky rocketed, his coat is SO soft and shiny, his teeth are BLEACH white and he just turns his nose up at a chicken leg! It's amazing!"
> You know, for once I want to see someone come on here and say "Wow, I switched from RAW feeding of 2 years to a good ol' kibble diet and my dog's energy has sky rocketed, his coat is SO soft and shiny, his teeth are BLEACH white and he just turns his nose up at a chicken leg! It's amazing!"
> 
> Heh.. instead the only ones that fight kibble fights are the ones that read what vets or nutrionists "believe" about any certain lifestyle choices about our pets. Your dog has at LEAST 10 years to live, and with so many variations of ways for your pets to acquire nutrition, why can't people just TRY it before they come on here running their mouth about what doctor said what and who's doctor has the most persuasive tongue.


I would like for someone from the kibble side to say that too. I thought at first that maybe LR2009 had that information and I got excited that I would hear from the other side (kibble side) from first hand knowledge, but, so far that hasn't happened and I don't know enough about anything to spout off to join (meaningfully) any debate on this. Anyways, I have learned that the vets and animal nutritionists know nothing about what to feed animals. Please doesn't someone know an animal nutritionist who knows their stuff and back it up w/facts???? Doesn't matter if he/she spouts raw or kibble, I just want to see what an animal nutritionist has to say on both subjects backed w/facts. 

Did I read somewhere that you are starting out on raw? (correct me if I'm wrong) And, how's it going for you?


----------



## ChattyCathy (Nov 22, 2008)

Postal said:


> I don't think lab is going to respond..


I forgot.... me neither! :frown:


----------



## ChattyCathy (Nov 22, 2008)

Postal said:


> And btw, I'm on day 3 of raw fed and I am already excited about what will be on sale at HEB this weekend. Brian is loving it. When i would feed kibble, he would eat a couple bites and go run off to play with the cat, then come back for some more about 5 minutes later. When I pull a chicken quarter out of it's ziploc, his tail wags so hard he looks like he's dancing. He immediately goes into a sit position (i make him sit and/or lay down before he gets to eat) and his tongue falls out. When I throw it on his "eating towel", he will lay there for 2 hours just chewing on the chicken. Not even the cat playing with his tail distracts his attention from his newfound love for food
> 
> Compare that with kibble.


OOOPPPSSSS! Sorry, I read so many posts today, I forgot it was right in front of my face. You did answer my question about how it's going. Thx.


----------



## Postal (Jan 23, 2009)

ChattyCathy said:


> OOOPPPSSSS! Sorry, I read so many posts today, I forgot it was right in front of my face. You did answer my question about how it's going. Thx.


lol that's ok. I keep meaning to go to the store and get some more meat so he doesn't get bored with the chicken quarters, but I think he's still happy it's just not kibble. If I don't make it up there tomorrow, then I will Monday and I'll look into some necks and some beef. I might splurge and get him a little tbone or something :smile:


----------



## RawFedDogs (Jun 16, 2008)

Postal said:


> lol that's ok. I keep meaning to go to the store and get some more meat so he doesn't get bored with the chicken quarters, but I think he's still happy it's just not kibble. If I don't make it up there tomorrow, then I will Monday and I'll look into some necks and some beef. I might splurge and get him a little tbone or something :smile:


Don't be in a big hurry to add new stuff to the diet. Your dog needs time for it's digestive system to reorginize itself to digest meat and bones. You need to add stuff to the diet very slowly. You start with chicken because it's relatively easy to digest and the bones are relatively soft. You need to feed nothing but chicken for a couple of weeks in the beginning.

If you get in too big a hurry you will find yourself cleaning up some pretty nasty messes in the floor. He won't get bored with chicken for a LONG time. :smile:

Check out the web page in my sig.


----------



## Postal (Jan 23, 2009)

RawFedDogs said:


> Don't be in a big hurry to add new stuff to the diet. Your dog needs time for it's digestive system to reorginize itself to digest meat and bones. You need to add stuff to the diet very slowly. You start with chicken because it's relatively easy to digest and the bones are relatively soft. You need to feed nothing but chicken for a couple of weeks in the beginning.
> 
> If you get in too big a hurry you will find yourself cleaning up some pretty nasty messes in the floor. He won't get bored with chicken for a LONG time. :smile:
> 
> Check out the web page in my sig.


Ok, I was afraid he'd give up on me. heh. Thanks, RFD. I'll gladly stick with chicken for a while


----------



## PukinHovi (Jan 24, 2009)

LabradorRetriever2009 said:


> You also have to consider the damage to teeth by chewing on raw, meaty bones.


after several posts i read from you and was wondering if there is any merrit to what you say, this sentence makes it perfectly clear that you are full of S#$%

ty


----------



## Postal (Jan 23, 2009)

PukinHovi said:


> after several posts i read from you and was wondering if there is any merrit to what you say, this sentence makes it perfectly clear that you are full of S#$%
> 
> ty


Yeah lol. Honestly, I think the guy might've been some business owner or store operator in some way related to the "products he supported." All his posts and replies sounded like they were pre-typed essays generalizing their approach to situations. What his purpose ot goal was, I don't know, but the guy was a joke and has since disappeared :smile:


----------



## sagira (Feb 9, 2009)

*Why I don't like raw*

I'm new here and have no experience with feeding dogs raw, just kibble. I don't currently own a dog but I'm acquiring a pup next year. After going back and forth between raw and commercial and commercial raw, I have decided to supplement with raw, and commercially at that, probably Nature's Variety.

I will be using mostly kibble (Wellness Puppy formula), once a week canned and once a week raw (Nature's Variety most likely, or if I can find green tripe, I will too).

Here are the reasons I don't like raw:


I have a small child who's bound to stick her hand in the puppy's food and try to feed her
I would want to encourage hand feeding for training reasons
I like the look of and feel of kibble -- dry, not messy
Easy to use, no hunting for meats
Dr. Pitcairn writes in his book that US bones have lead in them
The smell of raw food is not pleasant, to say the least, and I can't wait to cook the food so it's not raw anymore
If I happen to forget to clean the bowl one day, it stays sticky and yucky -- likely to happen in this house

and how do I keep the raw food away from the children who will be dying to help feed the puppy (at least the first month or so -- hehe)?

Otherwise, I think raw feeding has a great idea behind it. I admire the people who go hunting for these meat and bones. I live in a limited area where the nearest Walmart is about 40 minutes away and our local butcher hasn't seen necks and backs of chickens in fifteen years -- everything comes prepackaged. The only bones I can get are natural bones and of course the odd white and bleached tripe and chicken leg quarters (expensive in my area!).

I'm also planning on feeding tiny treats when training. Thanks for any insight.


----------



## diachi (Feb 12, 2009)

RawFedDogs said:


> There is no need to give vitamins or supplements to a dog on a prey model raw diet. Everything he needs is in the meat, bones, and organs of the animals he eats.





RawFedDogs said:


> There is no dog that has been made ill by a raw diet.


Maybe this goes hand in hand with the idea that raw fed dogs don't need supplementation, but my dog was raw fed for a bit over 3 years and only until recently did we discover that something was seriously lacking in her diet and causing skin issues, mainly severe itchiness. As you know, nutritional deficiencies can take a long time to show up.

It took us two years to find this out. We saw several holistic vets who all believe or at least acknowledge the raw diet. We saw a dermatologist, too. All of them blamed it on environmental allergies. Not one of them ever suggested that it might be diet-related.

Only recently did I find out the truth...my dog was lacking something or other in her mostly unsupplemented (she got fish oil though) raw diet and she wasn't getting all the nutrients she should've been getting...and it was showing through her skin. I accidentally discovered this when I switched her to a commercial diet and miraculously, no more itching. It wasn't a food allergy either as she got the same proteins.

It took me *two* years to find this out because I thought I was doing the best for her by keeping her on raw. During those two years, I've blamed it on every single thing possible (and made changes as appropriate) in the environment because I refused to believe the diet was the cause.

And before anyone says that maybe I wasn't doing the diet right, I will just say that I'm a member of the Yahoo rawfeeding group and got a lot of information and pointers from there, in addition to my own research. And you can bet that during those 2 horrible itchy years, I even made adjustments to the diet in case I wasn't doing it right.

I've done the raw two times because I keep wanting to believe that it is truly better for my dog, but each time, she ended up with dull fur and dry skin. Both times, after switching back to a commercial diet, her fur became soft again and people would keep asking what I feed her...I never got that with raw.

PS - I forgot to mention something interesting to me as well as the vets. Like I mentioned earlier, my dog was put on raw two times. The first time was for one year and during that time, she had 2 seizures. She went on a commercial diet for convenience issues after that and I noted no seizures. The second time, and the "breaking point" for her skin, she was on it for two years and she had 2 more seizures. Now back on a commercial diet and nothing. 

I'm not saying any diet is better or best. I'm just reiterating my personal experiences with the raw diet and the health problems it caused us. Maybe someone can dismiss the seizures as coincidental like I have done in the past, but surely, there's no other explanation for the skin problem. And if anything, IF the skin problem wasn't diet-related, then she should be scratching even more now because she's on processed dog food with fillers yet she's not and her fur is in much better condition.

If someone can make any sense of this for me, please do so.


----------



## RawFedDogs (Jun 16, 2008)

diachi said:


> Maybe this goes hand in hand with the idea that raw fed dogs don't need supplementation, but my dog was raw fed for a bit over 3 years and only until recently did we discover that something was seriously lacking in her diet and causing skin issues, mainly severe itchiness. As you know, nutritional deficiencies can take a long time to show up.


Try again, nutritional dificiencies don't cause skin issues.



> It took us two years to find this out. We saw several holistic vets who all believe or at least acknowledge the raw diet. We saw a dermatologist, too. All of them blamed it on environmental allergies. Not one of them ever suggested that it might be diet-related.


I think you should have listened to them.



> I accidentally discovered this when I switched her to a commercial diet and miraculously, no more itching. It wasn't a food allergy either as she got the same proteins.


What did you feed raw and what commercial food did you feed her?



> It took me *two* years to find this out because I thought I was doing the best for her by keeping her on raw. During those two years, I've blamed it on every single thing possible (and made changes as appropriate) in the environment because I refused to believe the diet was the cause.


Well you just can't change everything in the environment.



> And before anyone says that maybe I wasn't doing the diet right, I will just say that I'm a member of the Yahoo rawfeeding group and got a lot of information and pointers from there, in addition to my own research. And you can bet that during those 2 horrible itchy years, I even made adjustments to the diet in case I wasn't doing it right.


What name do you use over on rawfeeding? I am a regular over there and I haven't seen you there.



> I've done the raw two times because I keep wanting to believe that it is truly better for my dog, but each time, she ended up with dull fur and dry skin. Both times, after switching back to a commercial diet, her fur became soft again and people would keep asking what I feed her...I never got that with raw.


I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt, again, exactly what were you feeding? What commercial food do you feed now? Did you ever consider that maybe the fish oil was the problem?


----------



## diachi (Feb 12, 2009)

RawFedDogs said:


> Try again, nutritional dificiencies don't cause skin issues.


Yes, it does. There are specific canine scientific studies that prove this. I've asked my vet about this and she said yes, there is a link. In fact, skin issues are the most commonly seen problem in dogs with nutritional deficiencies. Fortunately, we don't see this often because most people feed kibble. If nutrition doesn't affect skin, why do people bother feeding fish to their dogs weekly? Or adding fish oil?



RawFedDogs said:


> I think you should have listened to them.


If I listened to them, my dog would still be scratching her skin raw with fur loss. Is that better? I've found the fix to my dog's skin problem and I don't know why you're debating this with me since I'm the one living with her, not anyone else and I see this.



RawFedDogs said:


> What did you feed raw and what commercial food did you feed her?


Eggs, RMBs, white meat, red meat, poultry, bones, fish, tried it with vegetables and also without, organ meat, etc. I've done it separately and I've also bought whole animals to feed prey model.



RawFedDogs said:


> Well you just can't change everything in the environment.


I said I changed what I could and what was possible to change. 



RawFedDogs said:


> What name do you use over on rawfeeding? I am a regular over there and I haven't seen you there.


I don't get why this matters? I use a different username for every forum I go to for privacy issues.



RawFedDogs said:


> I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt, again, exactly what were you feeding? What commercial food do you feed now? Did you ever consider that maybe the fish oil was the problem?


I have considered anything that was possible to consider to be a problem. I took out the fish oil for weeks, added it back in, took it out, used a different brand, different kind of fish, salmon/anchovy/mackerel, everything I could do within my power.

I'm feeding Wellness Whitefish & Sweet Potato this time. The first time around, I used Fromm and Natural Balance. Same results.

I'm not here to argue or to prove a point. I'm simply stating that it didn't work for my dog. For someone doing research into this topic and looking at the pros and cons, it wouldn't be fair for them to be presented with only the successful cases and nothing negative when, in fact, there ARE negative experiences out there. No one knows my dog better than I do, so I can't even believe someone would attempt to argue that something else was going on for two years when two times, a switch back to commercial did the trick.

It's not like I was quick to jump to the conclusion that it was the diet either. I kept at it for two years and spent tons of money seeing different vets, both conventional and holistic, dermatologist, allergy testing. Does this not indicate that I was completely reluctant to blame it on the diet? Heck, if I was so inclined, I would've made the switch back to commercial immediately so I could save my bank from breaking. Lastly, I only discovered the "fix" by accident, too. I wasn't ever looking to blame the raw diet.

But, I see what I see and I'm going to believe my own eyes because I live with this dog. That's all I have to say on this topic.


----------



## diachi (Feb 12, 2009)

Here's one of several studies I found that states nutritional deficiencies causes skin problems:
http://www.keepandshare.com/doc/view.php?id=1067904&da=y (pdf)

"Although many nutrient deficiencies may be associated
with skin disorders, most produce a similar range of clinical
signs. In most cases, the skin develops seborrhea, which is
characterized by abnormalities in sebum production and/or
keratinization. Typical signs of a nutritional dermatosis include
excessive scale, erythema, alopecia or poor hair growth
and greasy skin, which may be accompanied by secondary
bacterial infection and pruritus. It is generally accepted that
signs become evident only after feeding deficient diets for
several months."

My dog had alopecia (hair loss), poor hair growth and greasy skin, staph infections, and pruritus (itching). So yes, skin problems can and is related to nutrition.


----------



## rannmiller (Jun 27, 2008)

That's too bad, I'm sorry for your bad experience with raw! And I'm glad your dog is doing better now, I guess that's all we can do for our dogs is whatever works best for them. Raw has been doing wonders for my dogs, but every dog is different and some don't tolerate it I guess.


----------



## RawFedDogs (Jun 16, 2008)

diachi said:


> If nutrition doesn't affect skin, why do people bother feeding fish to their dogs weekly? Or adding fish oil?


Good point



> I've found the fix to my dog's skin problem and I don't know why you're debating this with me since I'm the one living with her, not anyone else and I see this.


I'm debating with you because I have been researching a raw diet for over 8 years. I have attended seminars presented by the raw feeding experts. I have had long in person and email discussions with world renown experts in raw feeding canines. I have talked to vets who feed raw. I am on at least 10 raw feeding lists/discussion groups with thousands upon thousands of members. I have attended college courses on canine nutrition. 

I have never, not one time ever heard of a dog who has skin problems have those problems go away when he switched to kibble. Not one. No one even hinted of this. No one I know has ever mentioned it. I can promise you that by the diet you fed, there were no nutrients missing from your dog's diet. 

If you fed veggies most of the time you were feeding raw, I would suspect one or more of them. Being off veggies for a few weeks would not eliminate the problems caused by them. It would take at least 2 months.

The first thing that comes to my mind is enhanced meats. I have heard of raw fed dogs who are fed enhanced meats having itching problems particularly around the feet. I have never heard anyone blame a lack of some nutrient or other. Particularly from someone who has no clue what that nutrient is. 



> Eggs, RMBs, white meat, red meat, poultry, bones, fish, tried it with vegetables and also without, organ meat, etc. I've done it separately and I've also bought whole animals to feed prey model.


I am sure there is no nutrient missing from this diet. I have given you a couple of ideas to consider in my paragraph above.



> I have considered anything that was possible to consider to be a problem. I took out the fish oil for weeks, added it back in, took it out, used a different brand, different kind of fish, salmon/anchovy/mackerel, everything I could do within my power.


Again, an allergen must be taken out of the diet for a couple of months, not a few weeks. Why don't you try without fish oil. I have never fed it to my dogs in 7 years of feeding prey model raw. They don't have skin problems.



> I'm not here to argue or to prove a point. I'm simply stating that it didn't work for my dog. For someone doing research into this topic and looking at the pros and cons, it wouldn't be fair for them to be presented with only the successful cases and nothing negative when, in fact, there ARE negative experiences out there.


There is a reason you had a negative experience. I'm just trying to figure out what that reason is. It definately is not lack of some nutrient in the diet. You are just coming up with that off the top of your head with nothing to back it up. You can't think of anything else so you automatically think, must be a nutrient missing. Well, there isn't.



> No one knows my dog better than I do, so I can't even believe someone would attempt to argue that something else was going on for two years when two times, a switch back to commercial did the trick.


I'm not arguing about what happened to your dog. I'm arguing with your conclusions as to the cause. It could have been enhanced meat, veggies, or fish oil. It is possible but not likely that she is allergic to one of the protein sources you were feeding her.



> It's not like I was quick to jump to the conclusion that it was the diet either. I kept at it for two years and spent tons of money seeing different vets, both conventional and holistic, a couple of dermatologists, skin allergy testing and blood allergy testing.


Hehe, you should have just come to me and we could have worked it out in a few months and I charge nothing. :smile:



> Lastly, I only discovered the "fix" by accident, too. I wasn't ever looking to blame the raw diet.


Hehe, you accidently fed your dog some kibble one meal and the problem went away?



> But, I see what I see and I'm going to believe my own eyes because I live with this dog. That's all I have to say on this topic.


I'm not saying your dog didn't have the problem. I just don't think it was because of a missing mysterious unknown nutrient in her diet.


----------



## ChattyCathy (Nov 22, 2008)

diachi said:


> Maybe this goes hand in hand with the idea that raw fed dogs don't need supplementation, but my dog was raw fed for a bit over 3 years and only until recently did we discover that something was seriously lacking in her diet and causing skin issues, mainly severe itchiness. As you know, nutritional deficiencies can take a long time to show up.
> 
> It took us two years to find this out. We saw several holistic vets who all believe or at least acknowledge the raw diet. We saw a dermatologist, too. All of them blamed it on environmental allergies. Not one of them ever suggested that it might be diet-related.
> 
> ...


Although I don't condone raw or kibble... I agree that no diet is better or best but I do think that some kibble is "best" over others. I just want to say it is refreshing to see another person's point of view regarding raw. I don't know enough to join in on these debates yet.... still learning both sides. And, thank you for your post! :biggrin:


----------



## ChattyCathy (Nov 22, 2008)

RFD: I was just wondering. If kibble in one form or another can give a dog skin problems why couldn't something in the raw feeding do that?


----------



## RawFedDogs (Jun 16, 2008)

ChattyCathy said:


> RFD: I was just wondering. If kibble in one form or another can give a dog skin problems why couldn't something in the raw feeding do that?


Good question. Its because its most frequently the grains and veggies in kibble that cause allergies. Kibble is a highly processed food that is only vaguely similar to what the original ingredients were before the processing began. Look at a kibble. Do you see meat in there? Do you see plants? No there is nothing familiar in there. It's must a mish mash of highly cooked and mixed together reminants from human food processing plants. There are many perservatives in kibble also.

A raw diet on the other hand is made up of whole meat, bones, and organs. The dogs body from teeth to anus is designed to eat and digest these things. It has basically no chemicals or preservatives in it. If a raw feeder also feeds raw veggies/fruits/grains he is much more likely to have a dog with skin problems.

In most instances dogs who have skin problems will have those problems disappear when put on a prey model raw diet.


----------



## ChattyCathy (Nov 22, 2008)

PukinHovi said:


> after several posts i read from you and was wondering if there is any merrit to what you say, this sentence makes it perfectly clear that you are full of S#$%
> 
> ty


Not sure he's active anymore....


----------



## EnglishBullTerriers (Sep 10, 2008)

I just spoke to one of the vets that I work with. We were talking about animal food and she mentioned that she, either worked or toured, a Purina Mills factory and watched the process from begining to end and thought that it was a little amusing. She told me the process of the slab of meat geting gound up and then the corn and other ingredients being added and ground to an un-recognizable form. Then it went into a baking/cooking machine and came out the other end in all the little shapes that they have. She said also that she turned around to where they package the product and noticed that no matter what the bag said... Lamb and Rice, Chicken and Rice... it was all the same thing from the same belt and only labled differently!!!!! I thought that this was amusing and simply stated, 'That is why I feed prey model raw food to my dog. I know what goes in and comes out of him!' 
She started asking questions about it and I felt funny telling a vet about nutrition!!  
Thats my story for the day!


----------



## rannmiller (Jun 27, 2008)

Hahaha I love it! That's what I notice when I look at all those Purina/Iams/SD bags, they all have the same ingredients with a different package and price tag on them.


----------



## Doc (Jan 17, 2009)

Do you really think that a fine outstanding American Company would mislead the consumer? :wink: Especially with something like dog food? ROFL! Maybe they spay essences of lamb on the Lamb and Rice Kibble!  Doesn't surprise me in the least.


----------



## jcmnh (Jul 18, 2008)

Isn't it unfortunate when someone is so close minded that they cannot see the forest for the trees.....

I have been feeding raw for 7 years this May, I have 6 dogs of my own and I have a rescue so am fostering constantly, every dog and puppy that comes through my home eats a species appropriate diet.

Last count I have had over 125 foster dogs come through here...... not once in all these years have I ever seen blood in a stool or blood if they regurgitate for any reason. I feed 84 meals a week here- all dogs in unbelievable health, my 13 1/2 year old, 118 lb GSD stands on his hind legs for his food, leaps into the back seat of my Suburban, runs up and down the 8 stairs in my back yard and it is a result of his diet- no question about it....


----------

