# your thoughts on instinct



## RCTRIPLEFRESH5 (Feb 11, 2010)

thinking of trying instinct for winston(beef and lamb). Only thing that concerns me is that thye use charcoal on their meats...and apparently they do this bcause their meat is the worst of the worst?

should i be concerned or is a good food?
im liking that the protein isnt as high as evo


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## Unosmom (May 3, 2009)

you mean denaturing? charcoal is pretty standard thing to use in better kibbles(they must be denatured by law with something) as opposed to corrosive chemicals like in low end kibble. I cant recall now whether I emailed them or another company about it, but they use food grade charcoal.


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## meggels (May 30, 2010)

i think it's one of the better foods out there. my dogs have had the rabbit (that smelled god awful...) and they did well on it and LOVED it....of course they loved the stinkiest kibble


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## cast71 (Sep 16, 2010)

the only foods i know of, that do not use denatured meats' are ziwipeak and champion.


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## Javadoo (May 23, 2011)

NV Instinct Duck & Turkey meal is one of the foods in my girl's rotation.
They do very, very well on the food and I am happy with the results.


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## Tobi (Mar 18, 2011)

Didn't you just start Winston on evo less than a month ago? I'm at a loss at why you would want to start changing things again... 
For Winston's sake stick to something good.

NV instinct I've heard is a good brand, I've not used it, but heard good things.


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## MollyWoppy (Mar 19, 2010)

I've heard its one of the better brands too. Hell of a lot better than many of them out there.


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## RCTRIPLEFRESH5 (Feb 11, 2010)

Tobi said:


> Didn't you just start Winston on evo less than a month ago? I'm at a loss at why you would want to start changing things again...
> For Winston's sake stick to something good.
> 
> NV instinct I've heard is a good brand, I've not used it, but heard good things.


we;ve already been through two of the big bags,9almost) and about 14 of the 4 oz sample bags they gave us lol....i was gonna rotate to the instinct beef which is a similar formula either this bag or the next bag of evo. I know people on here who rotate after every bag, so i dontthink it's tooterrible of an idea. I think evo is way too high protein to be a long term rotation option


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## RCTRIPLEFRESH5 (Feb 11, 2010)

yeah we wouldnt't use the rabbit because it's sourced from china sadly, but the beef food looks nice.


meggels said:


> i think it's one of the better foods out there. my dogs have had the rabbit (that smelled god awful...) and they did well on it and LOVED it....of course they loved the stinkiest kibble


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## Javadoo (May 23, 2011)

RCTRIPLEFRESH5 said:


> we;ve already been through two of the big bags,9almost) and about 14 of the 4 oz sample bags they gave us lol....i was gonna rotate to the instinct beef which is a similar formula either this bag or the next bag of evo. I know people on here who rotate after every bag, so i dontthink it's tooterrible of an idea. I think evo is way too high protein to be a long term rotation option


I rotate foods daily...I have multiple bags of foods, all different, going at the same time.
My girls get one kind of food for breakfast, a different food for dinner.
There's nothing wrong with rotating if your dog can tolerate it without an upset stomach.


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## MollyWoppy (Mar 19, 2010)

RCTRIPLEFRESH5 said:


> we;ve already been through two of the big bags,9almost) and about 14 of the 4 oz sample bags they gave us lol....i was gonna rotate to the instinct beef which is a similar formula either this bag or the next bag of evo. I know people on here who rotate after every bag, so i dontthink it's tooterrible of an idea. I think evo is way too high protein to be a long term rotation option


Sounds like a good idea to me. I use to rotate a different kibble/can/cooked or raw for every meal for Mollie and I still do with the kitten.


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## RCTRIPLEFRESH5 (Feb 11, 2010)

MollyWoppy said:


> Sounds like a good idea to me. I use to rotate a different kibble/can/cooked or raw for every meal for Mollie and I still do with the kitten.


Yeah only issue will be if he likes it haha. Evo red is a food that i dont have to worry about him eating. I know natures variety doesnt have much if any fresh meat in it, so idk how much it'll differ from evo red in terms of taste....but I really think 42 percent protein is a lot to be on. Plenty of members here have shown proof of this in their lab reports! Evo will still be there if I ever want to go back to it!


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## Unosmom (May 3, 2009)

I think they changed rabbit source from china to france.


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## MollyWoppy (Mar 19, 2010)

Unosmom said:


> I think they changed rabbit source from china to france.


They did? I get NV frozen venison or lamb sometimes just for variety. I'd add rabbit as well if it does indeed come from France now. I'll check it out....
(I found 1/2 a frozen rabbit at Publix......not even 1lb - $17.00 - thats why Mol will only get it for Xmas dinner).


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## meggels (May 30, 2010)

What about Earthborn's Great Plains Feast at 34% protein?


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## RCTRIPLEFRESH5 (Feb 11, 2010)

meggels said:


> What about Earthborn's Great Plains Feast at 34% protein?


it's an option, although even though ive raved about how great earthborn is on paper(and i stand by that), i just havent seen impressive results with my dogs. I also really lie the look of the instinct beef and at 37 percent protein it's high but i dont think too bad.
I also honestly believe that the primitive natural earthborn is their only good formula(i think all of the formulas are at least 4 star foods, but id give prim natural a 6)
I HATE SEEING PEA PROTEIN IN A FOOD AS WELL
Bison Meal, Peas, Pea Protein, Tapioca

im intrigued by the tapaoica but nv has it too


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## kady05 (Jul 29, 2011)

I feed NV Instinct to Sako, the Salmon formula. He does awesome on it.


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## RCTRIPLEFRESH5 (Feb 11, 2010)

so the other day i learned it is good to wet your dogs kibble to improve digestion. i am now reading that nv contains citric acid, and doing so would cause bloat?


kady05 said:


> I feed NV Instinct to Sako, the Salmon formula. He does awesome on it.


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## kady05 (Jul 29, 2011)

Well, I float (aka add water) to Wilson & Sako's (Piper is on raw) food at night and Sako has never bloated before!


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## meggels (May 30, 2010)

fair enough. 

obv every dog does differently on kibbles, my hound did probably the best she's ever done on that particular kibble  If i could afford to not feed my free natural balance to her, I would probably put her on that.


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## RCTRIPLEFRESH5 (Feb 11, 2010)

but instinct has citric acid.
and by float do u add tht much water it floats?


kady05 said:


> Well, I float (aka add water) to Wilson & Sako's (Piper is on raw) food at night and Sako has never bloated before!


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## kady05 (Jul 29, 2011)

RCTRIPLEFRESH5 said:


> but instinct has citric acid.
> and by float do u add tht much water it floats?


I get that, I still add water and my dog has had no ill effects. Yes, I add enough water so that the food floats a little.


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## Kat (Jul 12, 2011)

NV instinct is good, I emailed them not that long ago because I wanted to switch my cats to their food but had a few questions because both of my cats have had struvite crystals in the past. Their food has a pH between 6-6.5 which is good  Goes for their can and kibble too


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## RCTRIPLEFRESH5 (Feb 11, 2010)

Kat said:


> NV instinct is good, I emailed them not that long ago because I wanted to switch my cats to their food but had a few questions because both of my cats have had struvite crystals in the past. Their food has a pH between 6-6.5 which is good  Goes for their can and kibble too


i think if ido choose to feed nv im not gonna take a chance and wet his food..ill just feed it dry. winston is too big to chance it..kady how big are your dogs?

kat, is 6.5 a normal ph for dog food, ive never looked into that? it has a weird mono clay in it? not sure what that's about? Im assuming struvite crystals are crystals in the urine? that sounds painful.
All i know is i want to try a less rich food


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## Kat (Jul 12, 2011)

Yes, you want to look for a pH of 6-6.5 in pet foods, because that is the pH the urine should be in cats and dogs. Anything about 6.5 is too alkaline, and anything below 6 is too acidic which can cause struvite crystals or oxalate (sp?) my cats suffered from struvites pretty bad. Nature's Variety, Natural Balance, and Holistic Select are the 3 companies I was interested in for feeding my cats, and they all have the proper pH. I never buy a food until I contact the company and they answer all my questions. I even ask for mineral levels that they do not list on their websites haha. Montmorillonite Clay isnt a bad thing, its colloidial silica which has lots of minerals in it and helps to absorb vits and minerals better. I drink colloidial silica gel myself because it helps with skin, hair, and nails 

If you look on NV website, they have an ingredient glossary, this is what they say about Montmorillonite clay:
Montmorillonite Clay
Montmorillonite is a clay that is primarily colloidal silicate, which contains over 50 ultra-trace mineral compounds including Antimony, Barium, Beryllium, Boron, Bromine, Cadmium, Carbon, Cerium, Cesium, Chloride, Chromium, Cobalt, Copper, Dysprosium, Fluoride, Gadolinium, Gallium, Germanium, Iodine, Lanthanum, Lithium, Manganese, Neodymium, Nickel, Phosphorus, Rhenium, Rubidium, Samarium, Scandium, Silicon, Silver, Strontium, Sulfur, Tellurium, Thallium, Thorium, Tin, Titanium, Vanadium, Ytterbium, Yttrium, Zinc, and Zirconium. Feed studies by the Veterinary Medical Diagnostics Laboratory at Texas A&M University have shown that Montmorillonite clays can sequester (bind) aflatoxins contained in grains and oilseeds.


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## cast71 (Sep 16, 2010)

kady05 said:


> I get that, I still add water and my dog has had no ill effects. Yes, I add enough water so that the food floats a little.


I do the same and let it sit for about 15 minutes, so the water absorbs in;0) I use filtered water. It's especially important if your water contains chlorine and fluroide. 

I've used instinct with great results. I had better results with evo, but it's very close.

and i rotate a new food every bag which is about every 6 weeks.


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## RCTRIPLEFRESH5 (Feb 11, 2010)

cast71 said:


> I do the same and let it sit for about 15 minutes, so the water absorbs in;0) I use filtered water. It's especially important if your water contains chlorine and fluroide.
> 
> I've used instinct with great results. I had better results with evo, but it's very close.
> 
> and i rotate a new food every bag which is about every 6 weeks.


I;ve decided im going to buy some totw hi prairie and see if winston lieks it. I can;t justify feeding a bloat prone dog a food with citric acid in it...whether i wet it or not...and i also don;t like that id be uncomfortble doing what is right(wetting it). The food also is 64 bucks for 25 pounds which is ridiculously expensive for a food that will increase winston's chance of bloating.

Taste of the wild hi prairie isnt so cheap anymore, but I think it will be a good food for winston if he eats it. He was not too fond of the wetlands.


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## BrownieM (Aug 30, 2010)

I think you should just feed raw. Then you can stop worrying about all of this. I swear a I see a new thread that you have created every week worrying about some new kibble you want to try. Just feed raw for pete's sake! Then you can stop worrying about all of this crap.


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## RCTRIPLEFRESH5 (Feb 11, 2010)

BrownieM said:


> I think you should just feed raw. Then you can stop worrying about all of this. I swear a I see a new thread that you have created every week worrying about some new kibble you want to try. Just feed raw for pete's sake! Then you can stop worrying about all of this crap.


I'If I ever decide to pursue raw I will make that clear in the RAW section.
I'm going to give totw high prairie a shit..worst comes to worst winston loves his evo.


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## meggels (May 30, 2010)

Brownie- Off topic, but I love that pic of Tiger in your sig! I love all three of your poodles but his hair in that one cracks me up, such a mane!


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## meggels (May 30, 2010)

Dave- you're willing to feed TOTW but you were iffy about earthborn LOL? Seems a little contradictory to me 


Also- Natural Balance has a new grain free line called Alpha. I'd be happy to send you some samples with coupons if you want.



I've fed Abbie the chicken/lamb/rabbit formula and she did pretty good on it. It's the only one I'd feed out of the tree (one poultry, one trout one) because the other two don't have meals in the ingredient list before a potato or bean. Here is the formula I like:

Lamb, Chicken Meal, Potatoes, Garbanzo Beans, Peas, Chicken Fat (preserved with mixed tocopherols and citric acid), Sweet Potatoes, Natural Flavor, Rabbit, Alfalfa Meal, Beet Pulp, Pea Protein, Potato Starch, Dried Egg, Salmon Oil, Vegetable Pomace (carrot, celery, beet, parsley, lettuce, watercress, spinach), Calcium Carbonate, Salt, Potassium Chloride, Cranberries, Blueberries, Apples, Zucchini, Dried Kelp, Vitamins (vitamin E supplement, niacin supplement, d-calcium pantothenate, vitamin A acetate, thiamine mononitrate, pyridoxine hydrochloride, riboflavin supplement, vitamin D3 supplement, biotin, vitamin B12 supplement, folic acid), Taurine, Inulin, Minerals (zinc sulfate, ferrous sulfate, copper sulfate, manganous sulfate, sodium selenite, calcium iodate), L-carnitine, Ascorbic Acid (source of vitamin C), Yucca Schidigera Extract, DL-methionine, L-lysine, Iron Amino Acid Chelate, Manganese Amino Acid Chelate, Zinc Amino Acid Chelate, Copper Amino Acid Chelate, Mixed Tocopherols and Citric Acid (preservatives).


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## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

meggels said:


> Brownie- Off topic, but I love that pic of Tiger in your sig! I love all three of your poodles but his hair in that one cracks me up, such a mane!


Punk rock dog


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## meggels (May 30, 2010)

xellil said:


> Punk rock dog


yes! he looks like he could headbang pretty well with that mane of hair LOL!


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## RCTRIPLEFRESH5 (Feb 11, 2010)

meggels said:


> Dave- you're willing to feed TOTW but you were iffy about earthborn LOL? Seems a little contradictory to me
> 
> 
> Also- Natural Balance has a new grain free line called Alpha. I'd be happy to send you some samples with coupons if you want.
> ...


There's a few reason i'd prefer to feed totw. One of them is that as a whole I've had better esults with the wetlands formula than I have with the primitive natura, so in real world application as opposed to on paper, i prefer totw.

Another reason is that wisnton had great stools when we had hm on wetlands..he jsut didnt lie the taste.

Id also like to see how he does on a 32 percent protein kibble. After being on a 42 percent kibble I think he can use a est kidneyy wise lol.

Also I honestly like the ingredient list of totw hi prairie better than earthborn...it just sees way more meaty...true neither is a butcher's shop, but I jut like totw better, idk maybe im wrong ha.
As for the alpha dog it seems lie a step up from the regular nb, but isnt it a 24 percent protein food and it seems more potato heavy than totw..although that could be deceptive labeling since totw splits ingredients. Also I know i ust sounded contradictory...i want a lowER protein kibble, but dont wanna go below 30 percent as i feel the ones below that arent too meaty.

i was looking at dogswell nutrisca lamb formula..but
1-im not sure how meaty it is
2-it's pricey

btw winston loves his new kibble soup


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## BrownieM (Aug 30, 2010)

meggels said:


> Brownie- Off topic, but I love that pic of Tiger in your sig! I love all three of your poodles but his hair in that one cracks me up, such a mane!


Haha! And he's got a loooong way to go yet - that's only a tiny bit of hair!


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## cast71 (Sep 16, 2010)

RCTRIPLEFRESH5 said:


> I;ve decided im going to buy some totw hi prairie and see if winston lieks it. I can;t justify feeding a bloat prone dog a food with citric acid in it...whether i wet it or not...and i also don;t like that id be uncomfortble doing what is right(wetting it). The food also is 64 bucks for 25 pounds which is ridiculously expensive for a food that will increase winston's chance of bloating.
> 
> Taste of the wild hi prairie isnt so cheap anymore, but I think it will be a good food for winston if he eats it. He was not too fond of the wetlands.


I no longer feed instinct for a few reasons. One being citric acid. another being denatured meats, which means lower quality animal product. I use orijen now and used acana before that. Acana sounds like it would be what your looking for. You can get 20% discount coupons if you sign up with petfood direct. I buy 2 bags at a time which brings the price way down. I average $67 per bag rotating all 3 formulas. If you used acana it would average around $50-55 per bag for all 3 formulas. I tried almost all the kiblles out there, and i settled with orijen. By the way nutrisca contains citric acid. I would avoid any food that contains citric acid. Why use it when there are so many foods out there that don't contain it. also i liked evo alot, but i wanted a food that did not use denatured meats. Good luck on your dog food journey my friend;0)


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## RCTRIPLEFRESH5 (Feb 11, 2010)

cast71 said:


> I no longer feed instinct for a few reasons. One being citric acid. another being denatured meats, which means lower quality animal product. I use orijen now and used acana before that. Acana sounds like it would be what your looking for. You can get 20% discount coupons if you sign up with petfood direct. I buy 2 bags at a time which brings the price way down. I average $67 per bag rotating all 3 formulas. If you used acana it would average around $50-55 per bag for all 3 formulas. I tried almost all the kiblles out there, and i settled with orijen. By the way nutrisca contains citric acid. I would avoid any food that contains citric acid. Why use it when there are so many foods out there that don't contain it. also i liked evo alot, but i wanted a food that did not use denatured meats. Good luck on your dog food journey my friend;0)


thanks, but im not sure where to find the 20 percent coupon. PFD also doesnt have any abgs bigger than the 15 pounder right now....Also the 15 pounder is 45 dollars so no way a large bag would cost the same. I remember seeing them from 70-90. Acana jut isnt worth it with 60 percent meat protein. totw online is 42. If winston will eat that i;d be happy. Orijen is a much better value than acana...at 38 percent protein id consider it, but evo is way richer than orijen lol.


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## RCTRIPLEFRESH5 (Feb 11, 2010)

oh drats i was looking at cat food..still not sure where to get the 20 percent coupon..and not sure that any of their formulas is a red meat formula winston would like


cast71 said:


> I no longer feed instinct for a few reasons. One being citric acid. another being denatured meats, which means lower quality animal product. I use orijen now and used acana before that. Acana sounds like it would be what your looking for. You can get 20% discount coupons if you sign up with petfood direct. I buy 2 bags at a time which brings the price way down. I average $67 per bag rotating all 3 formulas. If you used acana it would average around $50-55 per bag for all 3 formulas. I tried almost all the kiblles out there, and i settled with orijen. By the way nutrisca contains citric acid. I would avoid any food that contains citric acid. Why use it when there are so many foods out there that don't contain it. also i liked evo alot, but i wanted a food that did not use denatured meats. Good luck on your dog food journey my friend;0)


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## KC23 (Nov 17, 2010)

RCTRIPLEFRESH5 said:


> totw online is 42. If winston will eat that i;d be happy.



RC (or anyone else who is interested),

TOTW 30 lb. bags are on sale for $41.99 at Tractor Supply if you have one near you.


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## cast71 (Sep 16, 2010)

RCTRIPLEFRESH5 said:


> oh drats i was looking at cat food..still not sure where to get the 20 percent coupon..and not sure that any of their formulas is a red meat formula winston would like


 Create an account  and they will email you coupon codes. They only have a 15% off now "SEPT15". It's also cheaper shipping on ordering 2 bags at a time. I like orijen better, but acana is almost as good. Sometimes it's better if your dog does better on it. It is a great food.

Also don't listen to people telling you to stick to one food or convert to raw. I switch ever 6 weeks and feed both raw and kibble. I don't like rules. Your allowed to experiment;0)


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## BrownieM (Aug 30, 2010)

cast71 said:


> Also don't listen to people telling you to stick to one food or convert to raw. I switch ever 6 weeks and feed both raw and kibble. I don't like rules. Your allowed to experiment;0)




Of course! I never tried to convince anyone of anything. I'm just saying...it must be stressful to have to scrutinize everything so often! The OP has posted at least 3 or 4 threads on different kibbles since they got that new dog. It's gotta be exhausting! I went through that too and I'm just saying, that I gave up with the citric acid and bloat and everything that worried me about kibble, switched to raw, and haven't worried about a THING since. So, there is an easier way. That's all I was trying to say.

But to each their own. Everyone has to take their own path.


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## cast71 (Sep 16, 2010)

I wasn't singling anyone out. I was just pointing out that I rotate often and feed raw meals for breakfast. I don't follow any diet guidelines, except introducing things in slowly at first. After that no rules, just feed. There where a few threads where people got annoyed at rc for switching foods. Why are people getting annoyed anyhow??? If he wanted to feed a different food everyday, that would be fine. I'm glad to see him asking questions, even weird ones ahahahahaha It shows he cares;0) I don't worry about bloat either. Supposedly foods with lower carbs are less likely to cause bloat. Carbs cause gas especially wet. I'm feeding a 30% carb food and half raw. I'm at 15% carbs. citric acid is controversial, so i avoid it.


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## RCTRIPLEFRESH5 (Feb 11, 2010)

cast71 said:


> I wasn't singling anyone out. I was just pointing out that I rotate often and feed raw meals for breakfast. I don't follow any diet guidelines, except introducing things in slowly at first. After that no rules, just feed. There where a few threads where people got annoyed at rc for switching foods. Why are people getting annoyed anyhow??? If he wanted to feed a different food everyday, that would be fine. I'm glad to see him asking questions, even weird ones ahahahahaha It shows he cares;0) I don't worry about bloat either. Supposedly foods with lower carbs are less likely to cause bloat. Carbs cause gas especially wet. I'm feeding a 30% carb food and half raw. I'm at 15% carbs. citric acid is controversial, so i avoid it.


i think im just gonna give the hi prairie a try i think acana is just too pricey for the amount of meat in it. i would feed the grasslands and it honestly doesnt seem that meaty.
i think after totw ill try orijen 6 fish.


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## cast71 (Sep 16, 2010)

there all good foods. I will say that you can't always go by paper. Just because it looks great on paper, doesn't mean your dog will do best on it. There are plenty of people on this site, that use acana over orijen for that same reason. My dog did great on all the higher protein foods. I always add alot of water until the kibble floats and let it absorb into the dry food. That might be the reason of my success. I fed totw for years, it's a good food;0)


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## BrownieM (Aug 30, 2010)

cast71 said:


> I wasn't singling anyone out. I was just pointing out that I rotate often and feed raw meals for breakfast. I don't follow any diet guidelines, except introducing things in slowly at first. After that no rules, just feed. There where a few threads where people got annoyed at rc for switching foods. Why are people getting annoyed anyhow??? If he wanted to feed a different food everyday, that would be fine. I'm glad to see him asking questions, even weird ones ahahahahaha It shows he cares;0) I don't worry about bloat either. Supposedly foods with lower carbs are less likely to cause bloat. Carbs cause gas especially wet. I'm feeding a 30% carb food and half raw. I'm at 15% carbs. citric acid is controversial, so i avoid it.


I haven't been around much so I miss most threads. But, a common "thread" (pun intended) is these threads where the OP is way overanalyzing another food. I think switching foods is great! I just think that it sounds like all of this is stressing the OP out. I get stressed out just reading these threads.


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## cast71 (Sep 16, 2010)

i can understand about over analyzing food. I did that when I first came to this site. He really can't go wrong with any of the foods mentioned in this thread. I fought the champion pill for awhile, but after much research and amazing results, i'm convinced. I will stick with that for now, but your right to each their own. Also every dog is different and that goes with any food, be it raw, cooked, dry. That's the reason it's hard to settle on a diet.


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## BrownieM (Aug 30, 2010)

I am indecisive too. I know if I ever fed kibble I would probably rotate all the time between Orijen, Acana (and all varieties of those foods), Nature's Variety Instinct, TOTW, EVO, etc.

Right now I feed raw. I alternate between Prey Model and BARF and my own version and sometimes during the week I feed premade patties for convenience. I give kibble as treats sometimes. I just think that variety is key, no matter what you feed!


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## meggels (May 30, 2010)

RC- Earthborn's Great Plains Feast is at 38% protein and 34% carbs on dogfoodadvisor.com, where as TOTW is 36% protein and 36% carbs, making EB "meatier". 


Also, IMO, from what i know about both companies, Earthborn is a better company and produces higher quality foods. My dogs went crazy for the food.



Just sayin  



I've heard hit or miss things about Nutrisica, mostly in terms of the palatability. I've also heard of dogs coats going to crap on it...dry and dull.


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## RCTRIPLEFRESH5 (Feb 11, 2010)

meggels said:


> RC- Earthborn's Great Plains Feast is at 38% protein and 34% carbs on dogfoodadvisor.com, where as TOTW is 36% protein and 36% carbs, making EB "meatier".
> 
> 
> Also, IMO, from what i know about both companies, Earthborn is a better company and produces higher quality foods. My dogs went crazy for the food.
> ...


I can't attest to earthborn's numbers, but I know that you are wrong about TOTW. totw is actually only 32 percent protein and 37 carbs.
Im pretty sure EB has potato protein(not sure if this would add carbs or if it's isolated proten), and pea protein...so im not sure it's meatier.
What I lie about the totw is it's availability. It is sold everywhere 
btw I was jsut curious your name meggles lol


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## RCTRIPLEFRESH5 (Feb 11, 2010)

I still don't trust 100 percent that champion's meats are safe for you and me to eat. Isn't it illegal to put human meat in dog food? isnt that why you didn't believe EB when they ''lied'' to you about it? does denaturing really have that much effect on the meat? A big thing that woul get me to consider champion(after totw) is if you can prove they dont use 4d meats!


cast71 said:


> i can understand about over analyzing food. I did that when I first came to this site. He really can't go wrong with any of the foods mentioned in this thread. I fought the champion pill for awhile, but after much research and amazing results, i'm convinced. I will stick with that for now, but your right to each their own. Also every dog is different and that goes with any food, be it raw, cooked, dry. That's the reason it's hard to settle on a diet.


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## RCTRIPLEFRESH5 (Feb 11, 2010)

actually EB GPF doesnt have potaters but it does have pea protein dk maybe someone else could chime in on which food they think is meatier.


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## Caty M (Aug 13, 2010)

You don't believe it's safe yet you trust a food from a large corporation (totw, diamond?)


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## RCTRIPLEFRESH5 (Feb 11, 2010)

Caty M said:


> You don't believe it's safe yet you trust a food from a large corporation (totw, diamond?)


i said safe for human consumption lol...besides orijen is not a small corp they sell all over the world don;t let them fool you into thinking they are this small little farm


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## Caty M (Aug 13, 2010)

No but they aren't a huge corporation who also manufacture this:

Ingredients
Ground corn, meat meal, wheat flour, poultry by-product meal, chicken fat (preserved with mixed tocopherols), corn gluten meal, dried plain beet pulp, fish meal, natural chicken flavor, potassium chloride, salt, choline chloride, vitamin E supplement, iron proteinate, zinc proteinate, copper proteinate, ferrous sulfate, zinc sulfate, copper sulfate, potassium iodide, thiamine mononitrate, manganese proteinate, manganous oxide, ascorbic acid, vitamin A supplement, biotin, niacin, calcium pantothenate, manganese sulfate, sodium selenite, pyridoxine hydrochloride (vitamin B6), vitamin B12 supplement, riboflavin, vitamin D supplement, folic acid.


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## RCTRIPLEFRESH5 (Feb 11, 2010)

what food is that most of diamonds foods are high quality? and orijen has done some less than honorable things. I actually jsut read a review about how they claim they use selenium yeast i ntheir website, but on the bags they claim a cheaper ingredient. They said 1 year ago they;d update the bags and never did...and they claim selenium yeast is used. either way why are you trying to start an argument...u misread my post anyway..i was jsut asking if the meat used in orijen i safe for humans..as I was considering it


Caty M said:


> No but they aren't a huge corporation who also manufacture this:
> 
> Ingredients
> Ground corn, meat meal, wheat flour, poultry by-product meal, chicken fat (preserved with mixed tocopherols), corn gluten meal, dried plain beet pulp, fish meal, natural chicken flavor, potassium chloride, salt, choline chloride, vitamin E supplement, iron proteinate, zinc proteinate, copper proteinate, ferrous sulfate, zinc sulfate, copper sulfate, potassium iodide, thiamine mononitrate, manganese proteinate, manganous oxide, ascorbic acid, vitamin A supplement, biotin, niacin, calcium pantothenate, manganese sulfate, sodium selenite, pyridoxine hydrochloride (vitamin B6), vitamin B12 supplement, riboflavin, vitamin D supplement, folic acid.


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## doggiedad (Jan 23, 2011)

"your thoughts on instinct", you have to have it in order to survive.


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## Caty M (Aug 13, 2010)

I'm not trying to start an argument but I do think it's odd that you refuse to try champion foods when you are clearly searching for the best for Winston.


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## Caty M (Aug 13, 2010)

And yes I'd assume the meat is safe for humans.. not exactly palatable though unless you're into that kind of thing.


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## RCTRIPLEFRESH5 (Feb 11, 2010)

Caty M said:


> I'm not trying to start an argument but I do think it's odd that you refuse to try champion foods when you are clearly searching for the best for Winston.


its not refusal i just dont think they are worth the money...evo is lie 58 bucks vs orijen which is 90(red)


ANYWAY!!! I Just got back form the store, and we bought winston hi prairie and he loves it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! the food smells so fresh!!! i gave him .5 cup of hi prairie and 1 cup of evo going to do this twice per day.

i noticed something curious on the bag of totw...it says that the hi prairie is now made with more bison....how much more idk?
im very excited about this as totw is 42 bucks shipped online


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## Caty M (Aug 13, 2010)

It smells like fresh meat?


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## meggels (May 30, 2010)

it smells like rainbows and fairy dust


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## RCTRIPLEFRESH5 (Feb 11, 2010)

idk it just has a good smell to it.....i hear people rave about orijen's smell so i could only imagine they smell similar. it smells better than evo did. I'm curious about the ''more bison'' though, hope they didn't downgrade the formula.


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## RCTRIPLEFRESH5 (Feb 11, 2010)

looks lie they took venison out of the ingridients.....so i guess they did downgrade it.
btw meggles what's your first name?
turns out the change was in 2010 though


meggels said:


> it smells like rainbows and fairy dust


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## meggels (May 30, 2010)

My name is Meghan/Meg, why?


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## Tobi (Mar 18, 2011)

RCTRIPLEFRESH5 said:


> the food smells so fresh!!!


:lol:

My dogs food smells really fresh too... fresh mackerel this morning... along with some fresh beef tongue, and heart... :becky:


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## cast71 (Sep 16, 2010)

RC I don't know where your seeing orijen for $90 but that's a rip off. Read my earlier post about signing up for petfood direct. They'll eventually send you a 20% of coupon code in email. If you bought 2 bags of regional red, it would come out to around $76 each including shipping, if you waited for a 20% coupon. Like I stated earlier, I'm averaging $67 a bag using all 3 form


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## RCTRIPLEFRESH5 (Feb 11, 2010)

cast71 said:


> RC I don't know where your seeing orijen for $90 but that's a rip off. Read my earlier post about signing up for petfood direct. They'll eventually send you a 20% of coupon code in email. If you bought 2 bags of regional red, it would come out to around $76 each including shipping, if you waited for a 20% coupon. Like I stated earlier, I'm averaging $67 a bag using all 3 form


would you mind sending me your 20 percent off?
i am thinking of orijen 6 fish or acana pacif


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## nupe (Apr 26, 2011)

rctriplefresh5 said:


> would you mind sending me your 20 percent off?
> I am thinking of orijen 6 fish or acana pacif



lol!!!...............


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## RCTRIPLEFRESH5 (Feb 11, 2010)

nupe said:


> lol!!!...............


how is that funny? m sure the code could be used by more than one person.....and winston will be done with the totw soon..the bag's going quick...so i dont want to wait a month for a coupon? i dont see how that is funny?


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## Tobi (Mar 18, 2011)

RCTRIPLEFRESH5 said:


> how is that funny? m sure the code could be used by more than one person.....and winston will be done with the totw soon..the bag's going quick...so i dont want to wait a month for a coupon? i dont see how that is funny?


Then don't use a coupon, maybe the coupon is single use.



> They'll eventually send you a 20% of coupon code in email. If you bought 2 bags of regional red, it would come out to around $76 each including shipping, if you waited for a 20% coupon. Like I stated earlier, I'm averaging $67 a bag using all 3 form


maybe try going back through this thread, and see if you can absorb some useful information for yourself instead of everybody spelling every single thing out for you. If you don't want to pay the price for a particular food, don't. or try going through the avenues that cast71 has tried to show you.


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## RCTRIPLEFRESH5 (Feb 11, 2010)

Tobi said:


> Then don't use a coupon, maybe the coupon is single use.
> 
> 
> 
> maybe try going back through this thread, and see if you can absorb some useful information for yourself instead of everybody spelling every single thing out for you. If you don't want to pay the price for a particular food, don't. or try going through the avenues that cast71 has tried to show you.


or i can ask if i can use his code...which i did...as they may be multi use.


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## meggels (May 30, 2010)

RC- just google "petfooddirect.com coupon code" and you can get several.


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## nupe (Apr 26, 2011)

RC.....All the different dog food you have tried here recently...I find it amazing you dont know how to get coupons??...so again I LOL...."Can you send me your 20 % off coupon",...JUST INCREDIBLE!!!


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## malluver1005 (Nov 15, 2009)

Orijen 6 fish at $90! Here it's $60!


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## RCTRIPLEFRESH5 (Feb 11, 2010)

nupe said:


> RC.....All the different dog food you have tried here recently...I find it amazing you dont know how to get coupons??...so again I LOL...."Can you send me your 20 % off coupon",...JUST INCREDIBLE!!!


I know how to get coupons...it is actually my knowledge of getting coupons that has led me to ask cast for help....the best coupon I could find using all of my resources is the free shipping one...which while good still leaves orijen red at 86 and change...cast said he had a 20 percent code, so I asked...no big deal.


Cast you asked where I was coming up with 90 dollars for orijen....well the cheapest I could get red shipped is 86 dollars....and I live in NJ..nowhere exotic or extravagant.


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## Feedingtime (Oct 21, 2011)

You seem to be wasting a lot of money on foods that a mature, large/giant breed dog does not need. The best thing you can do for that animal is pick one food with about 25% protein and 15% fat with whole, high quality grains and get on with your life.

Natures Variety is one of the worst foods on the market and one of the most expensive. Don't waste your money on such a high protein high fat diet for a dog like that, especially NV.

There are at least 6 very high quality foods that come to mind that are about $1lb.


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## Caty M (Aug 13, 2010)

How's it one of the worst foods on the market? It's pretty high in meat which is good for a CARNIVORE.. dogs don't need carbs.


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## CorgiPaws (Mar 31, 2009)

Feedingtime just likes to provide entertainment, that's all.


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## hmbutler (Aug 4, 2011)

Feedingtime said:


> Don't waste your money on such a high protein high fat diet for a dog like that, especially NV.


I agree... just feed him rice, bread and vegetables. you can usually pick them up pretty cheap, and they'll fill him right up. What dog needs lots of meat and fat?!?

/sarcasm


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## meggels (May 30, 2010)

hmbutler said:


> I agree... just feed him rice, bread and vegetables. you can usually pick them up pretty cheap, and they'll fill him right up. What dog needs lots of meat and fat?!?
> 
> /sarcasm


I agree. Or be resourceful and use leftovers. I had a ton of leftover halloween candy so Murph has been living off of that the past few days.


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## Scarlett_O' (May 19, 2011)

meggels said:


> I agree. Or be resourceful and use leftovers. I had a ton of leftover halloween candy so Murph has been living off of that the past few days.


Happiest Frenchie EVER right there!!!LOL

(I know that you where ONLY saying that in jest...but I cant imagine how extremely OVER JOYED Brody and Jazzy both would be at the prospect of left over halloween candy!!LOL :lol


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## meggels (May 30, 2010)

So are twix, milky way's and smarties not an appropriate diet for him???? He seems to have an abundance of energy lately.


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## Tobi (Mar 18, 2011)

Scarlett_O' said:


> Happiest Frenchie EVER right there!!!LOL
> 
> (I know that you where ONLY saying that in jest...but I cant imagine how extremely OVER JOYED Brody and Jazzy both would be at the prospect of left over halloween candy!!LOL :lol


:lol: sad but true... Tobi somehow got a hold of a whole 6 ounce package of popcorn jelly bellies in the oldest room this morning... his tummy did not agree and he ended up puking it back up, why do we keep candy off of our bedroom floors again? :heh:


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## Feedingtime (Oct 21, 2011)

Caty M said:


> How's it one of the worst foods on the market? It's pretty high in meat which is good for a CARNIVORE.. dogs don't need carbs.


NV is extremely high in ash. Over the life of the dog it will take its toll. Large & Giant breeds will never need that much protein for muscle repair and the various other metabolic functions. It is just a waste of money. Your dog will just excrete that much protein.

As far as quality, I am suspect of any food company that uses such an agressive stool former like bentonite or any form of industrial clay.

The only foods I know of other than NV and the post-sale spinoff Natures Logic that use these compounds are crappy feed mill brands.

It is a crap diet, period. I saw Dr. Tim Hunt post below, his 26/16 is perfect for a large breed dog.

It is very sad that 4 or 5 habitual posters with no obvious credentials jump on every post and recommend expensive, risky and unneeded diets. All these people do is parrot the other crap they read on other websites.


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## Unosmom (May 3, 2009)

I asked you to provide the source that says dogs excrete proteins that they do not use, have not heard back from you. Please share. I found some random articles, but not from credible sources. I've been feeding my own non-working dog "high protein" 30-35% for the last 5 years with great results, shiny coat, very muscular and fit, lots of energy. If the dog is overfed higher protein diet, yeah, it'll probably be excreted through urea or stored as fat. The key word there is overfeeding. 

Instead of sitting there and insulting a bunch of dedicated pet owners, why not share your backed up findings as well as your credentials?


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## Unosmom (May 3, 2009)

Heres something I found on PetMD written by a vet:


> "But too much protein is bad, right?" you ask. Do your own research and poll half a dozen nutrition specialists (not the guy who runs the local pet shop) and here is what you will find: There is no general agreement among expert nutritionists regarding what constitutes “too much” protein in the dog’s diet. Research shows that dogs have a high capacity for digesting and utilizing diets containing more than thirty percent protein on a dry weight basis. (Dry weight basis means the food with no moisture present. Dry dog food in a bag usually has 10 percent moisture and canned food has about 74 percent moisture.) If left to catch and consume prey to survive, as wild canines do every day, dogs’ diets would be even higher in protein than what is generally available commercially.


Focusing on Protein in the Diet | petMD


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## Feedingtime (Oct 21, 2011)

Unosmom said:


> I asked you to provide the source that says dogs excrete proteins that they do not use, have not heard back from you. Please share. I found some random articles, but not from credible sources. I've been feeding my own non-working dog "high protein" 30-35% for the last 5 years with great results, shiny coat, very muscular and fit, lots of energy. If the dog is overfed higher protein diet, yeah, it'll probably be excreted through urea or stored as fat. The key word there is overfeeding.
> 
> Instead of sitting there and insulting a bunch of dedicated pet owners, why not share your backed up findings as well as your credentials?


The problem is noone knows over the life of the dog. It doesn't really matter because it has been shown over and over again that a normally active dog only requires between 22-25% of a high quality protein source. Case closed. 

The extra protein is not being used and being excreted. Moreover, protein is a horrible source of calories, so when you feed such a heavy protein food at the expense of the other nutrients you wind up losing 30% of those calories just to metabolize the protein. More calories burned means more heat.

Wasteful

No giant breed, companion animal needs this much protein, and no owner of a giant breed, companion animal needs to waste money on it.


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## Tobi (Mar 18, 2011)

Feedingtime said:


> NV is extremely high in ash. Over the life of the dog it will take its toll. Large & Giant breeds will never need that much protein for muscle repair and the various other metabolic functions. It is just a waste of money. Your dog will just excrete that much protein.
> 
> As far as quality, I am suspect of any food company that uses such an agressive stool former like bentonite or any form of industrial clay.
> 
> ...


Then please post something useful like the sources that you have that these diets are useless... because obviously nobody on this forum has the credentials and knowledge that you posess. 



Feedingtime said:


> The problem is noone knows over the life of the dog. It doesn't really matter because it has been shown over and over again that a normally active dog only requires between 22-25% of a high quality protein source. Case closed.
> 
> The extra protein is not being used and being excreted. Moreover, protein is a horrible source of calories, so when you feed such a heavy protein food at the expense of the other nutrients you wind up losing 30% of those calories just to metabolize the protein. More calories burned means more heat.
> 
> ...


Again, She asked for sources, quite nicely i might add, and you fail to come up with anything now except...


> noone knows over the life of the dog


. and.


> it doesn't really matter because it's been shown over, and over again that a normally active dog only requires between 22-25% of a high quality protein source. Case closed.


Except this case isn't closed because you have provided ABSOLUTELY no definitive evidence of your claims, IF this has been shown time and time again... where is the evidence, we are all people that want to do the best for our animals, and it seems you are just wanting to argue without showing evidence... If i were to go onto any other forum and argue points without sources i would be laughed at, this is why nobody here takes you seriously whatsoever, you claim you know it all, you claim you have amazing credentials... yet... no proof of anything, and you say say we just parrot things from other sites...

TLR; Sources, or you're full of


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## Feedingtime (Oct 21, 2011)

Tobi said:


> Then please post something useful like the sources that you have that these diets are useless... because obviously nobody on this forum has the credentials and knowledge that you posess.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



If you want to read studies Google Kronfeld 1977 (by the way he was the co-developer of Annamaet) it was shown that hemocrit levels in racing sled dogs in training, not backyard Huskies, was stable with a food of 32% protein. So clearly if a husky in training can get get along with 32% then 99.99999999% of all the dogs in the country fall into foods around 25%. 

This is why and expert like Dr. Tim Hunt designed a 26/16 food, for 99.999% of the dogs out there.

Many people suffer from whats called "cognitive dissonance". When it comes to these silly dogs food like Instinct, this is the case.


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## Feedingtime (Oct 21, 2011)

Does anyone know who Gottfried Dildei is?


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## Tobi (Mar 18, 2011)

Feedingtime said:


> If you want to read studies Google Kronfeld 1977 (by the way he was the co-developer of Annamaet) it was shown that hemocrit levels in racing sled dogs in training, not backyard Huskies, was stable with a food of 32% protein. So clearly if a husky in training can get get along with 32% then 99.99999999% of all the dogs in the country fall into foods around 25%.
> 
> This is why and expert like Dr. Tim Hunt designed a 26/16 food, for 99.999% of the dogs out there.
> 
> Many people suffer from whats called "cognitive dissonance". When it comes to these silly dogs food like Instinct, this is the case.


okay, so from what i've gathered by your information

1. you're using information that is 30+ years old, any other information that you can cite, and i'm sure this was a small study so it will likely be hard to find any evidence of such. Anything else that you could try to cite as proof?
2. you're *assuming *that 99.999999999% of all the dogs in the country fall into foods around 25% :lol:



> Many people suffer from whats called "cognitive dissonance". When it comes to these silly dogs food like Instinct, this is the case.


The OP... ya...

Everybody else, maybe not so much, people come here looking for information. They generally aren't deeply conflicted between two factors in choosing one.



Feedingtime said:


> Does anyone know who Gottfried Dildei is?


Only a little bit through people reading his books on shutz.


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## Feedingtime (Oct 21, 2011)

Tobi said:


> okay, so from what i've gathered by your information
> 
> 1. you're using information that is 40+ years old, any other information that you can cite, and i'm sure this was a small study so it will likely be hard to find any evidence of such. Anything else that you could try to cite as proof?
> 2. you're *assuming *that 99.999999999% of all the dogs in the country fall into foods around 25% :lol:
> ...


He recently designed a dog food for Dr. Gary Cotton for working dogs, like actual herding shepherds and shutz dogs, with 22% protein.

By the way the research you say is 40 years old is considered the gold standard.

Have you noticed that sled dog and performance foods are typically 32'ish protein foods? Why is that? Is everyone else stupid?


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## Tobi (Mar 18, 2011)

Feedingtime said:


> He recently designed a dog food for Dr. Gary Cotton for working dogs, like actual herding shepherds and shutz dogs, with 22% protein.
> 
> By the way the research you say is 40 years old is considered the gold standard.
> 
> Have you noticed that sled dog and performance foods are typically 32'ish protein foods? Why is that? Is everyone else stupid?


you tell me, you're the expert :wink:

After reading through a study which was the European equivalent i can find nothing that shows that the excess protein is excreted and not used... what i find is that amount of protein and fat is sufficient.

http://jn.nutrition.org/content/124/12_Suppl/2760S.full.pdf

DietA 29% DietB 34%

In conclusion, the present study demonstrates a
significant change of PCV, RBC and serum ALT during
the training and racing season and a significant re
sponse of PCV, RBC, serum CPK and creatinine to
bouts of exercise. Only negligible differences were
found between diets A and B.The results showed that
diets containing 29-34% of DE from protein and 48-
54% of DE from fat meet the nutritional requirements
of racing sled dogs under typical European training
and racing conditions. Comparable studies in sled dogs
racing in North America (Hammel et al. 1977, Kron
feld et al. 1977) have found similar results in adap
tation and response of blood variables to training and
exercise, although changes were more distinct than in
European sled dogs, probably because of more severe
climate conditions and greater challenges in training
and racing in North America



It *MEETS* the requirements for them, nowhere in that entire study does it say that it EXCEEDS the requirements for them... was Kron's done with a higher protein volume? lets say 29% A to 54% B? it apparently was see below study.

I don't doubt that it was a well done study, i don't doubt that it is the gold standard, but what i'm saying is that you're saying different things than what the study is showing, and were looking for these things.

ETA: i just found a synopsis of the study...

http://www.ajcn.org/content/30/3/41...058ad516614db2c48e831703&keytype2=tf_ipsecsha

In a 28 week study, 18 racing sled dogs were trained to maximal fitness in 12 weeks, sustained through a racing season of 12 weeks, followed by gradual of training of 4 weeks. The dogs were fed a predominantly cereal diet prior to the study; experimental diets containing more chicken and meat by products were introduced from the 2nd to the 4th week of training. On an energy basis, the diets contained protein, fat, and carbohydrate in the proportions of *39:61:0 (diet A)*, *32:45:23 (diet B)*, and *28:34:38 (diet C)*. Blood samples were taken at rest just before the start of training, at 6, 12,24 and 28 weeks; 33 variables were measured on most samples. The results were subjected to analysis of variance. No adverse effects were observed in dogs fed the extreme diet A. Significant relationships to training were shown by serum glutamic oxaloacetic transaminase, creatinine, packed cell volume, calcium, hemoglobin, and globulin. Serum cholesterol concentration increased with the introduction of the higher protein-fat diets; the high concentrations attenuated with time but rose again when training was abated. *Dogs on diet A maintained higher serum concentrations of albumin, calcium, magnesium, and free fatty acids during the racing season than did dogs fed diets B or C. They also exhibited the greatest increases in red cell count, hemoglobin concentration, and packed cell volume during training. High values of red cell indices were not sustained through the racing season in dogs fed diet C. In addition to attributes already widely appreciated, viz. **a higher energy density an digestibility, the carbohydrate-free, high-fat diet A appeared to confer advantages for prolonged strenuous running in terms of certain metabolic responses to training.*


ETAA:Found the full study, http://www.ajcn.org/content/30/3/419.full.pdf+html
Conclusions
The extreme diet A, high in fat and protein and virtually free of carbohydrate , did not induce any adverse effects in hard working dogs. Instead, it conferred certain metabolic advantages . These included a higher oxygen carrying capacity in the form of more red cells and hemoglobin, and a higher
content of free fatty acids, the major fuel for aerobic metabolism in muscle during prolonged exercise . The higher serum concentrations of calcium, magnesium, and albumm in the dogs fed more fat and protein may also help them to withstand hypocalcemic, hypomagnesemic, and hypovolemic tendencies during exhaustive exercise (12). Previous authors (5-7) have emphasized the value of a high energy density and digestibility of diets for dogs subjected to hard work. The present study shows that the diet also influences certain hematobogical and metabolic responses to physical training. Comparative aspects are discussed elsewhere (12).



Thank you so much Feedingtime for leading me to these studies, they are full of information, and i'm extremely glad that i found them. though i'm not surprised with the results, i'm not sure what this does for your argument that dogs "NEED" high quality whole grains though :heh:


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## DogLuver (Oct 19, 2011)

oh my goodness!!!! I don't like being rude or mean but....

Enough is enough FeedingTime! This is sickening, I wish you would stop spreading useless information and calling everyone else suckers for doing the best for their dogs! Everyone here loves their dogs. So STOP. If you want to mess around with feeding your dogs poorly...go ahead and do it, but don't come here acting like you know what you're talking about. I'm no expert, but I sure know better than to believe anything you've said. After everyone arguing against you, and you still stick around trying to spread your word??? What is keeping you here? I don't get it? Do you get off on being told you're wrong?

This is SO not like me to talk like this on a forum, but it's absurd. This forum is VERY useful, until you get involved.


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## Unosmom (May 3, 2009)

^^ this

Whats sad is that I have no problem someone proving me wrong, as long as they have the facts to back it up. Perhaps in his/her way this is some skewed attempt to "educate" us, but this person seriously needs to learn some basic human communication skills. At this point, not only do we not have any respect for FT, but who wants to take any advice from an arrogant @ss that constantly belittles everyone, whether that advice has any merit or not.


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## Tobi (Mar 18, 2011)

Unosmom said:


> ^^ this
> 
> Whats sad is that I have no problem someone proving me wrong, as long as they have the facts to back it up. Perhaps in his/her way this is some skewed attempt to "educate" us, but this person seriously needs to learn some basic human communication skills. At this point, not only do we not have any respect for FT, but who wants to take any advice from an arrogant @ss that constantly belittles everyone, whether that advice has any merit or not.


Although, finally getting some information out of him I got to read a few interesting studies!! :becky:


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## DaViking (Sep 27, 2011)

DogLuver said:


> After everyone arguing against you, and you still stick around trying to spread your word??? What is keeping you here? I don't get it? Do you get off on being told you're wrong?


He is and he isn't wrong. He's right in that there is no need for 30% to 40% of proteins for your average medium to large breed dog. Does the excess get excreted? Does it waste energy? Well, I say the levels we are talking about are really not that interesting. The point isn't the elevated protein levels. Most dogs with a decent activity level should have no problems coping with this. In my opinion it is more interesting that these foods are usually the "new" grain free alternatives with a different composition. Now, there are scientific arguments to be made in favor of grain free and there are old established science behind including grains in dog food (no, I am not going down the carb discussion road again, don't even try  ). One doesn't necessary kill the other. Based on that I don't think it is fair to ridicule ppl who believe in a grain free diet and are willing to pay a little extra for this. Thing is, how much is "a little more" Personally I feel the industry is overcharging for pea meal and sweet potatoes, granted some ingredients are from premium quality sources. Speaking of potatoes. I remember seeing a 25/14, I think it was, grain free food. Potato as 1st ingredient. Oooohhh, starch yum.


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## RCTRIPLEFRESH5 (Feb 11, 2010)

honestly i think anything above 36 percent is too much protein..... think 30-36 is ideal.....


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