# Having been in the pet food industry for almost 3 decades...



## Dr Dolittle

To the raw folks, I leave that debate to people a whole lot smarter than me. I generally side with the folks that question the risks over the benefits, but have never honestly investigated it since the vast majority feed dry or canned food. This is to the kibble masses out there, which I am one. I remember in 1988 when Purina introduced ProPlan with "chicken as the 1st Ingredient" and I knew the pet food industry would never be the same. "Honesty" went out the door and marketing and manipulation has been with us ever since. Why tell people the truth when you can sell them a great story? Pet food marketing is designed to distinguish your product from the others and appeal to the masses. You folks are hardly the typical pet owners and care much more about nutrition but judging from the posts, the marketing has worked very well anyway.Since its my job and my passion, I have to investigate and evaluate all the foods but you'd disagree with me anyway and I'm not here to recommend any foods.Having said that, I do feel bad how easily the marketing folks manipulte your thinking to sell their food. Just so you know, there are no rules to truthfulness in literature or websites. Companies can say whatever they want. Remember that! The bag though has many rules but companies know how to play the game now. Did you know there is a legal definiation for organic and natural and food companies work within thsoe rules but that the term "Holistic" as wonderful as it sounds has absolutely no meaning? Regardless of ingredients, processing , nutrients etc, any food can claim Holistic? We all can just believe what it means to us and give extra money to the food company. Do you know how an ingredient panel actually works, by law, rather than what might seem obvious? Do you really know what "real meat" is vs by-products? Do you know what ingredient splitting is and why they do it? 

If you have any marketing questions that you wanted answered honestly by someone who knows, let me know. I am not talking about nutrition but the marketing. If there was ever anything you wondered about I'd be happy to give you my perspective......based on the facts, not yet another opinion! I won't pick on pa
Particular foods since they all play the same game. Though to be fair, vet diets work with a whole different set of rules, the tricks of the trade are practiced by all food companies marketed to healthy pets....and I wish they didn't work so well! God Bless!


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## Sapphire-Light

I can see you point, when the diamond stuff happened it really made me mad.

Mostly when I read the discription on how the factory was keep, the one who took my attention said they had something like "dirty containers full of animal fat/digest and none of their products had it in their labels, so they were cheating on the labels"


After that I trust more in companies who have clean facilities, for example I read that Hills even give tours to people to their plant and the reports is that they are clean and look healty; yes their foods have corn and less meat than many people from here would like, but clean and hygiene is more trusty that something that comes from unhealty place like were the diamond plant was found.

That's why is important to keep an eye on the company before going after pretty advertising.


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## Shamrockmommy

I still go by how the dogs' bodies do on a food. I guess im guilty for falling for marketing, although I have my own convictions about ingredients, especially grains. Rice is really the only grain I'm ok with. 

I'm currently looking forms more plain-Jane, middle of the road food that will produce decent coat and stool. I'm not sure there is one! I'd also like a company that I can trust... Also not entirely sure there is one. Lol

I appreciate your experience. I don't have any specific questions, really but wouldn't mind cliff notes at how t he companies arrange ingredients attractively to get our attention. Dh commented today how much money companies must spend on packaging with all the brightly colored sparkly packages.


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## Dr Dolittle

Sapphire-Light said:


> I can see you point, when the diamond stuff happened it really made me mad.
> 
> Mostly when I read the discription on how the factory was keep, the one who took my attention said they had something like "dirty containers full of animal fat/digest and none of their products had it in their labels, so they were cheating on the labels"
> 
> 
> After that I trust more in companies who have clean facilities, for example I read that Hills even give tours to people to their plant and the reports is that they are clean and look healty; yes their foods have corn and less meat than many people from here would like, but clean and hygiene is more trusty that something that comes from unhealty place like were the diamond plant was found.
> 
> That's why is important to keep an eye on the company before going after pretty advertising.


Yes, I suppose before you even look at the actual finished product the cleanliness and the quality controls of the plant are foundational. There is a group, something like The American Baking Association, sorry, it's something like that, but it is the 3rd party group that inspects human food plants. A number of food companies, mainly the vet diet ones, will have their plants inspected by these folks. it is the highest standard, Not sure how you would find out about a particular company. I know Purina, Hills and Royal Canin are. probably since the cleaning between batches of various therapeutic diets is much more critical than making different flavors of basically the same thing.
I actually got to do that tour of the Hills plant. t was pretty cool but as an animal lover when I saw where they keep their beagles and cats I was blown away! Dog and cat heaven could not be any better! They have the life! Besides the best vet care, the 2nd shift of techs are responsible just for play no interaction! that's a job I want! Every animal has a name! And there is no invasive studies on these guys. they just eat! I could handle that job too!


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## Dr Dolittle

Shamrockmommy said:


> I still go by how the dogs' bodies do on a food. I guess im guilty for falling for marketing, although I have my own convictions about ingredients, especially grains. Rice is really the only grain I'm ok with.
> 
> I'm currently looking forms more plain-Jane, middle of the road food that will produce decent coat and stool. I'm not sure there is one! I'd also like a company that I can trust... Also not entirely sure there is one. Lol
> 
> I appreciate your experience. I don't have any specific questions, really but wouldn't mind cliff notes at how t he companies arrange ingredients attractively to get our attention. Dh commented today how much money companies must spend on packaging with all the brightly colored sparkly packages.


I'm currently looking forms more plain-Jane, middle of the road food that will produce decent coat and stool. I'm not sure there is one! I'd also like a company that I can trust... Also not entirely sure there is one. Lol

I appreciate your experience. I don't have any specific questions, really but wouldn't mind cliff notes at how t he companies arrange ingredients attractively to get our attention. Dh commented today how much money companies must spend on packaging with all the brightly colored sparkly packages.[/QUOTE]

ShamrockMommy, Of course we are only going to feed a food our guys seem to do well with but at least in my mind there should be a more accurate way of evaluation. Your dog will probably do well on a number of diets, though they may vary significantly as far as how healthy they are or how proactive in reducing risk of disease.

so you brought up packaging. good start! If you go into Petsmart, I know that is probably taboo for most of you on here but just do it and hold your nose! LOL! It's just because they have so many brands. Look at the bags and you'll notice that though they try to be different, they have so much in common. Food companies spend millions, depending on the company, making bags that get you to buy. The funny thing is they all do focus groups, take what they learn from consumers, then design the bags. Notice all the similarities! I am sure I look at a bag very differently than you folks because I know what they are trying to do, but I think you'll see what I mean. Petsmart must be about 60 % of the pet food business now so if you re a food company your only chance is that they notice your bag. And it's all demographics! you can buy a company's grain free diet in that section of the store, or their natural grains included diet on the end cap, their no artificial colts all a natural diet in the back or their food with artificial colors and shapes in another part of the store! the raw folks are pretty much ignored since most companies aren't going to make a raw diet since its too small a niche market. some small companies could make a fortune there I suppose. I mentioned how websites and brochures can be as deceitful as they'd like. just to give you an example, I saw a food at Petsmart that was $71.99 for a 26 LB bag! There was a brochure that stated it was Protein focused nutrition. Well, I don't want to get into nutrition here but I found that to be bizarre. I am more interested in the total diet, not just a small part of it. But anyway, the food company stated that excessive minerals could have a detrimental effect on your dogs health if fed long term. I was very impressed since that is my philosophy, built on years of experience. so I called the company and simply asked for their sodium level and their phosphorus level. Some companies can't give me that which is a red flag in my book, but these folks gave them to me. they were the same as Old Roy at Walmart!Old Roy, what we all love to hate! Old Roy has high phosphorus, very harmful to kidneys in older dogs and cats, because of the junk, mostly bone, in their meat sources. This high priced protein focused food was just as high in phosphorus because they were so extremely high in protein and I suppose still used inferior meat sources. the bottom line is the dog is getting too much in either food! the dog will look great on that high priced food as far as skin and coat and probably stool volume, but is no healthier than Old Roy!

the bag is actually a legal document with lots of laws and rules so You are right that we should start there. but not tonight!
God Bless!


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## Shamrockmommy

I used to buy Flint River Ranch. I don't now because of the wheat, but I remember the bag being just white with a smallish sticker label on it. Super plain, no costs to absorb into the price for a fancy bag, just food in a bag. 
Haven't fed it for years or know what type of packaging they have now. Nowadays, something like that on a shelf would get passed over, i"m sure!


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## bett

having gotten caught up in the diamond dog food fiasco, i am more than concerned with a company that has had recalls.
i'm now home cooking for one (the one who was the most damaged by the toxic food), fromm for one other (never a recall!) and for my highly allergic girl , go between fromm and pinnacle.
pretty pictures on bags dont influence me at all, but ingredients and recalls do.

i worry more about contamination from dog kibble than i do about my own chicken necks.i at least,,know to wash my hands unlike some mass producers of dog kibble.

and while others may swear about the "therapeutic" foods the vets recommend, i read the label and nearly threw up. sorry, i'll home cook before i ever do that again. glad the factories are clean but the ingredients leave much to be desired.
been there and done that.


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## InkedMarie

For companies you can trust, there are three I can recommend. Dr Tim's is the first. Tim himself is incredibly helpful. He's here and on other forums, not to mention Facebook. If you have a question, he'll answer it. I'm impresses with his food. 

My dogs did well on Annamaet. I personally haven't had much interaction ith the owner but I know many who have.

Brothers complete is family owned, the owner was also incredibly helpful to me. The food is all grainfree & on the costlier side so not middle of the road.


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## FBarnes

How would you say marketing has affected people on this board?

I'm not sure there's anyone here, other than very new people, who don't understand byproduct vs. meat vs. meat meal; ingredient splitting, etc.

I don't feed dry dog food but it still drives me crazy how it's marketed. I think they should show the REAL ingredients floating through the air on TV, not t-bone steaks. Who would buy the food then?


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## Dr Dolittle

FBarnes said:


> How would you say marketing has affected people on this board?
> 
> I'm not sure there's anyone here, other than very new people, who don't understand byproduct vs. meat vs. meat meal; ingredient splitting, etc.
> 
> I don't feed dry dog food but it still drives me crazy how it's marketed. I think they should show the REAL ingredients floating through the air on TV, not t-bone steaks. Who would buy the food then?


Yeah, as I said you folks here aren't the typical consumer but lets see if I shed any light on how it all works.

Back in the 80's Science Diet and Iams were the only so called premium brands. I say premium since the term doesn't really have a definition. They were more expensive and dogs did much better on them than grocery foods. Purina was losing business like crazy and didn't like it. Iams had been successful with really bright bags and talked about meat protein, but was not manipulating the ingredient panel in those days. Meat was their focus because Paul Iams, their founder was a self taught nutritionist. Thats their words, though can we all say we are? LOL! He had made a mink food and noticed the dogs that guarded the mink farm ate the mink food and had really great coats compared to grocery feeds (no wonder!) Thus was born Eukanuba, a 30% Protein20% fat diet that really was more a mink food than a dog food but they marketed it very well. Timing is everything. If you're wondering what Eukanuba means it was a term Mr Iams used in college with his frat boys where they observed an attractive young lady. Eukanuba! LOL! I am not making that up! Science Diet was sold in brown paper bags, very boring, the fat actually stained and leaked thru the bags! It was mainly sold at vet clinics becasue vets had seen what the Hills vet diets could do for urinary cats, renal dogs and cats, etc and these diets were disigned to reduce the risks of those awful diseases. But hardly any marketing, thats for sure. Well Purina fights back by introdusing ProPlan, chicken the first ingredient. And that changed everything. Purina realized people were looking at the ingredient panel so they did an ingenious thing. Ingredient panels by law go by weight, not volume. Real meat is about 70% water so if they used real meat, regardless of the quality, it would move to the front of the ingredient panel and make it appear the consumer was buying a food with more meat. They couldn't be sued becasue they were simply saying meat was the first ingredient. It was! But if you looked further you would find chicken meal or chicken by product meal further down the list. It worked really well! It's funny that to this day you can go to Purina's website and oyu have to dig but you can find where they explain how the ingredient panel goes by weight. To give you a great example of how things changed, there was a food at that time that had a panel stating "Meat meal, Ground Corn, Animal Fat........etc. Their meat source was beef but Americans were eating chicken now and it was easier to get better quality chicken meals so they actually improved the product by adding 1/2 chicken, half beef. Well, the ingredient panel changed. The 2 LBS of corn stayed the same but moved to the front becasue the 3 LBS of meat meal was now split into 2 items, beef and chicken. They didn't add any more corn but it went to the front on total weight. The breeders flipped out saying this company had sold out and now was corn based! ProPlan had made quite an impression on consuemers perseption by then. Breeders claimed all kinds of ailments, including sterile bitches, deformed puppies, all kinds of stuff. In reality the company had improved the food but hadn't thought of the ingredient panel looking different. That was the last time an ingredient panel was honest (excluding vet diets). No company would ever make that mistake again! Fast forward to the 90's and a new food out of California was gaining popularity. It was a Lamb & Rice Diet and its messaging stated no chicken feet, feathers and heads. They upped Purina by making by products sound like reall bad junk and that Lamb was simply amazing. They were extremely successful and I believe can be credited with starting the approach of demonizing ingredients and making others sound really good. When they were sued in 2005 over some of their marketing they simply said their no by products messaging had nothing to do with nutrtion and even stated that their choice of ingredients had nothing to do with nutrition! Thats under oath so you have to apprecaite their honesty! There were laws set to prevent food companies from stating no this or no that in an effort to distinguish your product and make another look bad but money talks and I have to believe someone got paid off and those laws are gone. Consumer beware! So do any of you know how in the world you can find out if the "real" meat with its water weight or the meal further down the list is actually as good and pure as the company says? Is there a fail safe way or do we just trust blindly? By the way, meal just means the water has been taken out. The real meat could be garbage and the meal could be really high quality. How can you tell? And how many people will judge a food by the first ingredient? Every food company I know, the healthy and unhealthy, are all changing (manipulating) their ingredient panels to play this game. Doesn't mean a food is good or bad but you need to be aware of the trick. I am sure it helps get a higher price at Petsmart. I am terribe with computers but if you want to paste you food's ingredient panel we can take a look at that trick and a few others. There are someintersting things on there. You raw folks can't be burned by these scams, I can hear you already! LOL!


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## Shamrockmommy

This is one of my long-standing favorites. What do you think? I can post my next favorite, but the way my dog is having trouble digesting, it may be falling out of my favor!

INGREDIENTS: 
Fresh Chicken, Chicken Meal, Ground Whole Brown Rice, Oatmeal, Chicken Fat Preserved With Vitamins C and E (Natural Mixed Tocopherols), Whole Eggs, Dried Carrots, Dried Celery, Dried Sweet Potatoes, Sunflower Oil, Calcium Ascorbate (Source of Vitamin C), Garlic Powder, Dried Kelp, Alfalfa Meal, Monosodium Phosphate, Potassium Chloride, Taurine, Yucca Schidigera Extract, Vitamin A Acetate, D-Alpha Tocopherol (Source of Vitamin E Supplement), Ergocalciferol (Source of D2), Thiamine Mononitrate (Vitamin B1), Vitamin B12 Supplement, Riboflavin Supplement (Vitamin B2), Choline Chloride, Inositol, Niacin, Calcium Pantothenate, Biotin, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride (Source of Vitamin B6), Zinc Amino Acid Chelate, Calcium Amino Acid Chelate, Iron Amino Acid Chelate, Folic Acid, Manganese Amino Acid Chelate, Copper Amino Acid Chelate, Cobalt Amino Acid Chelate, Sodium Selenite. 

GUARANTEED ANALYSIS: 
CRUDE PROTEIN.......................24.00% (Min.) 
CRUDE FAT...............................15.00% (Min.) 
CRUDE FIBER ...........................4.00% (Max.) 
ASH ..........................................7.00% (Max.) 
MOISTURE ..............................12.00% (Max.) 
CALCIUM ...................................1.20% (Min.) 
PHOSPHORUS.............................1.0% (Min.) 
*VITAMIN C...........................500 Mg/Kg (Min.) 
VITAMIN E .............................250 IU/Kg (Min.) 
*FATTY ACIDS (Omega 3).............0.80% (Min.) 
FATTY ACIDS (Omega 6)................4.2% (Min.)


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## Dr Dolittle

Thanks shamrocklmommy for not stating the brand. I am not here to bash or promote any food.

Now just remember the reason I gave you so much info on the history of how ingredients became a focus was a very deliberate change in pet food marketing. One could say of course the ingredients matter but it went from them mattering based on the nutrients they provided to helping sell the food if they looked and sounded good. 
So lets take a look!

INGREDIENTS: 
Fresh Chicken, ... Here we have fresh chicken as the 1st ingredient. The word fresh is great marketing but has no real meaning. I have no idea of the quality of the meat.....Chicken Meal, ...This is the actual protein source in this food, listed 2nd but all that weight is protein. No one seems to ask themselves why you would need chicken meal as the 2nd ingredient with all that fresh chicken! LOL! Again, I have no idea of the quality and purity of that meal. Chicken meal sounds better than poultry by product or chicken by product meal but these meals can actually have more amino acids and less minerals than chicken meal. It all depends on the quality. I think the raw folks would agree organ meat is great for dogs. Yet any source by any name could be junk, full of bone and other undesirable stuff. Ingredient panels don't tell you that....Ground Whole Brown Rice, ....Here is a carbohyrate. Notice it is ground and must be cooked correctly....Oatmeal, Chicken Fat Preserved With Vitamins C and E (Natural Mixed Tocopherols), Chicken fat, pork fat etc are all better sources of fat than beef fat, sometimes listed as beef tallow. This is providing the majority of the energy, fatty acids, etc. We don't like talking dietary fat is our diets but its great at the right amounts for our canines. Good fat sources can actually be more expensive than some meat sources!.... Whole Eggs, Uusually dried egg, but this is added to provide additional amino acids not found in the meat. You should always see mulpiple protein sources since meat is not as magical as many have been taught. I am a bit suspect how much is actually in there since whole eggs would have more moisture than dried but again, good ingredient.... Dried Carrots, Dried Celery, Dried Sweet Potatoes, Sunflower Oil, Vegetables provide flavanoids and carotnoidsand antioxidants but honestly probably not enough without adding them as a supplement. Sweet potato is very common in grain free, non corn diets but ironically provides double the carbs of corn.This is really is a cool trick played on people wanting so called grain free. Someone the other day mentioned she trusts rice but not corn. I really can't comment on the GMO issue to be fair, but the masses opinion of rice vs corn has been shaped by pet food marketers, not research or anything scientific. Fatty acids forma variety of oils can be debated but I haven't jumped into that..... Calcium Ascorbate (Source of Vitamin C), Garlic Powder, Dried Kelp,....I always get nervous when I see kelp becasue it can add quite a bit of sodium to the diet, a concern for dogs in their senior years.... Alfalfa Meal, Monosodium Phosphate, Potassium Chloride, Taurine, Yucca Schidigera Extract, Vitamin A Acetate, D-Alpha Tocopherol (Source of Vitamin E Supplement), Ergocalciferol (Source of D2), Thiamine Mononitrate (Vitamin B1), Vitamin B12 Supplement, Riboflavin Supplement (Vitamin B2), Choline Chloride, Inositol, Niacin, Calcium Pantothenate, Biotin, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride (Source of Vitamin B6), Zinc Amino Acid Chelate, Calcium Amino Acid Chelate, Iron Amino Acid Chelate, Folic Acid, Manganese Amino Acid Chelate, Copper Amino Acid Chelate, Cobalt Amino Acid Chelate, Sodium Selenite.....I do find it interesting, and I'm sure the raw folks would agree, these all natural foods somehow get away with all these weird sounding, chemical sounding things in their food. I am not saying they are bad but hardly natural! To those that like chelated minerals, it sounds really good but not so much. Depending on the substance used to chelate the mineral or vitamin it does infact cahnge the absorption, but than you have to know how so becasue you then should be adjusting the other nutrients accordingly or you could end up with imbalances and even deficiences. Exaples would be too much calcium will bind phosphorus. too much calcium can bind zinc (one result being black coated dogs looking reddish over time. I think chelation is totally unnatural and feel the company should use these minerals in their natural form (as possible) and balance them based on their natural absortion rate.
GUARANTEED ANALYSIS: 
CRUDE PROTEIN.......................24.00% (Min.) Remember this is just a minimum but probably isn't much higher. Not a bad number but no idea of quality still.
CRUDE FAT...............................15.00% (Min.) This is the energy source. Though unscientific, 15% fat usually means a somewhat higher calorie diet, good for a somewhat active dog, probably too much for the all American couch potato. But checking calories is the best way.
CRUDE FIBER ...........................4.00% (Max.) This is a normal fiber level for a healthy active dog. So much misunderstanding around fiber. It is critical to GI health for all of us. Someone mentioned how powdered cellulose was saw dust. It is actually the most expensive fiber source by far and I am always impressed when it shows up in a diet. Beet pulp, soy mill run, many others, all with very unappealing names should never be considered fillers or garbage. Soem work in the upper GI tract, others in the lower. Some are actually digestible to provide prepiotic health to the gut, others are non digestibel to treat various GI disease by increasing motility of the gut (along with changing protein sources and fat levels) Sorry, I keep getting back to nutrition preaching here! 
ASH ..........................................7.00% (Max.) This is the total mineral level of the food. It is reached by burning the food and since minerals don't burn, the ash content is the mineral content. The problem is it doesn't tell me specific minerals and they all effect different things, such as phosphorus and kidneys, sodium and heart, magnesium and urinary stones, etc. (Vet diets are extremely specific in this for them to work) 
MOISTURE ..............................12.00% (Max.) This is a pretty typical amt. Nothing to comment on at all.
CALCIUM ...................................1.20% (Min.) Again,m these minimums mean nothing to me. I have to trust the company knows what they are doing!
PHOSPHORUS.............................1.0% (Min.) Do they even have a vet on staff? Tragically (and it infuriates me) most don't. They are ,marketing companies!
*VITAMIN C...........................500 Mg/Kg (Min.) This vitmain C level is interesting. I find this now and than. Vit C actually helps regenerate Vit E to do its job destroying free raticals. Research seems to indicate anything 200 IUS and higher is effective. You might be paying for some vit C that your dog is just peeing out but kudos to the company for putting it in there. Many foods will have insufficient amts. And C isn't fat soluble so no danger to the liver.
VITAMIN E .............................250 IU/Kg (Min.) This is the real antioxidant, free radical killer! 250 IUs is pretty standard though again research seems to indicate 500 or above is the effective level. We can't measure free radical damage clinically but alkanols in the blood are a by product of free radical damage (oxidation) and we can measure that to determine antioxidant optimal levels.Selenium and Betacaratene should also be in the food to strengthen cell walls but food companies either don't add it or simply don't list it, but if you look at your own multi antioxidant it should have those 4 since they work synergistically best.
*FATTY ACIDS (Omega 3).............0.80% (Min.) Again, just minimums and the 3's are coming from a variety of sources in this food. 3's have antinflammation properties
FATTY ACIDS (Omega 6)................4.2% (Min. This ratio of 6's and 3's is fine. 6's actually promote skin and coat health, though a dog with inflammatory issue like arthritis, these 6's can be detrimental.

There is nothing in here I don't like personally but I wouldn't even consider feeding it without knowing the nutrient content of the final product. Call it bias, life experience (getting old!) but becasue I watched the ingredient craze from the start and saw who the people were that started it and promoted it, I will stick with the proven method of evaluating diets based on their nutrient profile and the credentails of those making it. Sure, my dog has to do well on it but that is not a good measure of a diet overall. Some dogs do well on Old Roy! 

One thing I did notice, this food must be grain free and they neglected to put the total carb level in their gauranteed analysis. The reason I bring that up is I have noticed bags of expensive grain free diets that do list carbs are sometimes higher than foods with grain, even foods promoting whole naturals grains! Sometimes carbs will be listed as NFE on the analysis. (Nitrogen Free Extract)

There were a few other tricks I didn't see here so if you have any others I'd be happy to look at them. I won't cover the same stuff, just any other tricks I spot. The organic foods might be enlightening. I hope you learned something from that though. Blessings!


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## NutroGeoff

It looks to me like a pretty quality brand. It does have a lot of the things that most premium brand customers do look forin a dog food. The higher omega 6 will also be great for skin and coat. How does your dog do on this food?


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## FBarnes

It's like the press release Science Diet sent out a few months ago. Basically, it said consumers are ignorant and shouldn't look at the ingredients list. They should look at the results. That was their response to the new awareness of things like corn as a first ingredient and cellulose in their food. It's all part of the whole and shouldn't be questioned, according to Hill's.


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## meggels

Dr. Doolittle...how is the food shown above grain free when it contains rice and oatmeal?


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## meggels

FBarnes said:


> It's like the press release Science Diet sent out a few months ago. Basically, it said consumers are ignorant and shouldn't look at the ingredients list. They should look at the results. That was their response to the new awareness of things like corn as a first ingredient and cellulose in their food. It's all part of the whole and shouldn't be questioned, according to Hill's.


Not that I necessarily agree with Hill's philosophy or would ever feed their food lol, I *do* believe that you need to judge foods on more than the ingredient list and the GA, and how a dog does on it, and the whole package, are important too.


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## Dr Dolittle

FBarnes said:


> It's like the press release Science Diet sent out a few months ago. Basically, it said consumers are ignorant and shouldn't look at the ingredients list. They should look at the results. That was their response to the new awareness of things like corn as a first ingredient and cellulose in their food. It's all part of the whole and shouldn't be questioned, according to Hill's.


Not aware of any press release from Hills. They have a grain free diet too now. Corn, cellulose, whatever isn't a Hills ingredient, Purina, whomever. I would say most consumers are ignorant of how the marketing works. That doesn't mean people are stupid. Would you agree most pet owners have no clue how an ingredient panel is listed. I would say 99% don't. Why should they? They assume it works the way they believe and no one tells them differently. Can you honestly disagree with that? I am not saying don't look at the ingredient panel, but don't ignore the nutrients provided by the food. We have totally dismissed that and really don't care to know. That is already in my small world causing tragic result in dogs and cats. Don't worry. You will have a hard time finding corn as the first ingredient in any commercial food soon, if not already. I suppose you could argue the consumer has made food companies do that (without considering the pros and cons for the dog) but it can also be argued that the food company marketing it driving it all as well. God only knows what other ways we are persuaded by marketing. I am sure I am victim to other messaging that appeals to me and I don't know better. Honestly, kinda surprised we're arguing over my assessment of that food. That was simply telling the industry facts, but we are all passionate about it or we wouldn't be here. Right? ;-)


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## Dr Dolittle

meggels said:


> Dr. Doolittle...how is the food shown above grain free when it contains rice and oatmeal?


Hey Meggels! I don't know if it is marketed as grain free. So you are right! As I look at the grain free diets though I find an interesting variety of carb sources and find myself asking why certain carbs are taboo and other are really good. I guess I struggle with some of them because they really blur the line. I probably spoke out of turn when I saw the sweet potato. Sweet potato is the new darling ingredient in grain free diets. Not for any real reason but its now cool. So again, you are right. But to add to your point, this food that ShamrockMommy likes could say "Holistic" on it if not grain free since there are no rules to calling a food holistic. That may be the best marketing trick to sell a food for more money right now. At some point there will be requirements and I guarantee you pet for marketers know this and are already working on the next word that will sell food. Sorry if I sound pessimistic but I speak the truth!


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## FBarnes

It was BECAUSE consumers didn't like the ingredients that they changes the formula.

""Hill’s Pet Nutrition will reformulate its Science Diet dogs and cat foods to add more natural ingredients.

The company made the decision to reformulate the Science Diet petfoods because some consumers were making product choices based primarily on a set criteria for ingredients, rather than the overall promise of nutrition and clinical research. Hill's says the new Science Diet dog and cat food formulas will feature:

• Quality protein as the first ingredient
• Natural ingredients
• No chicken by-product
• No artificial colors or flavors
• Great taste, guaranteed"
https://www.facebook.com/DogCentricTX/posts/410981698957299



And here is Hill's saying ingredients aren't all that important: "The recent Science Diet seminar included a discussion of nutrients versus ingredients. The Hill's philosophy is that animals require nutrients — balanced, life-giving nutrients — not specific ingredients. Science Diet formulas do not focus on trends or visually appealing ingredient panels. Ingredients only make it into a bag of Science Diet if they provide the right nutrients in the proper bio-available levels based on Hill's vigorous research and testing."
Science Diet Mythbusting

And I don't know how anyone can believe Science Diet doesn't contain corn and cellulose. Thier "grain free" is a bone to the masses to keep their market. Here's their "light" food: Oh, and don't forget the soybean oil, beet pulp, ingredients splitting, etc. etc. 

Ingredients

Chicken Meal, Brewers Rice, Pea Protein Concentrate, Whole Grain Wheat, Whole Grain Sorghum,* Whole Grain Corn,* Pea Bran Meal, *Powdered Cellulose , Corn Gluten Meal,* Chicken Liver Flavor, Soybean Oil, Dried Beet Pulp, Lactic Acid, Flaxseed, Iodized Salt, Calcium Carbonate, Potassium Chloride, Choline Chloride, vitamins (Vitamin E Supplement, L-Ascorbyl-2-Polyphosphate (source of vitamin C), Niacin Supplement, Thiamine Mononitrate, Vitamin A Supplement, Calcium Pantothenate, Biotin, Vitamin B12 Supplement, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride, Riboflavin Supplement, Folic Acid, Vitamin D3 Supplement), L-Lysine, Taurine, minerals (Ferrous Sulfate, Zinc Oxide, Copper Sulfate, Manganous Oxide, Calcium Iodate, Sodium Selenite), Oat Fiber, L-Carnitine, Mixed Tocopherols added to retain freshness, Citric Acid added to retain freshness, Beta-Carotene, Phosphoric Acid, Rosemary Extract, Dried Apples, Dried Broccoli, Dried Carrots, Dried Cranberries, Dried Peas.


----------



## FBarnes

Corn is not LISTED as the main ingredient. But with ingredient splitting and the fact that they don't have to tell us exacly what percentage of each ingredient exists in the bag, why would we think it's NOT the main ingredient even with some kind of meat listed at the first? Especially if the meat is not a meal? It's all meant to decieve, not be transparent.

And unless everyone wants to pay $80 a bag or more there will always be corn.


----------



## FBarnes

Not to mention Dog Food Advisor lists certain Science Diet foods among the worst 7 foods on the market. Right there along with Beneful.


----------



## Dr Dolittle

FBarnes, Thanks for the info. Not sure if you are trying to argue but your post confirms what I have been saying. To get chicken as the first ingredient in a low fat, high fiber diet takes quite a bit of dancing. The fiber source would probably be the heaviest, much like vet diabetic diets. Does it bother you that one company is doing what they all are as well? You are right. Food companies are playing the ingredient game to please the consumer. I am simply questioning, or wish you would question where this shift from nutrients and nutrition to ingredients started and by whom. I really like Hills statement about nutrients vs fad ingredients and they honor that in their vet diets, for now, but they are playing the game with Science Diet and their GrainnFree Ideal Balance. I appreciate your skepticism but curious why you seem to have trust for other companies. Ask yourself where that trust comes from. has their been any discussion on any of these threads about nutrients delivered by these ingredients? I wonder why? People in board rooms that have no clue about pets health are figuring out how to use our love and passion for our canine companions to sell us food and they couldn't care less about their health. When I look at their nutrient levels I can come to no other conclusion.


----------



## Dr Dolittle

FBarnes said:


> Not to mention Dog Food Advisor lists certain Science Diet foods among the worst 7 foods on the market. Right there along with Beneful.


Dog Food Advisor is a very hard working devoted dog lover who I can admire but all he does is perpetuate the ingredient game, though he doesn't know it. He has no clue of any nutrient levels and so he is as misguided as those that trust his work. I believe he is a dentist? I would respect him more if he would meet with some nutritionists from Purina, Hills, oral Canin and perhaps he would gain a different perspective. can't help but like the guy but he does need to broaden his horizons. I feel being as popular as he is he has a responsibility to go a bit further now. I read his story of how his dog died and he blamed the vet. very sad. I guess sincere grief can be a great motivator, even if misdirected.


----------



## Dr Dolittle

FBarnes said:


> Corn is not LISTED as the main ingredient. But with ingredient splitting and the fact that they don't have to tell us exacly what percentage of each ingredient exists in the bag, why would we think it's NOT the main ingredient even with some kind of meat listed at the first? Especially if the meat is not a meal? It's all meant to decieve, not be transparent.
> 
> And unless everyone wants to pay $80 a bag or more there will always be corn.


Transparency? You have a better chance of seeing that from the Obama administration! That's what I have been saying and showing. Don't blame Hills! LOL! Some folks are paying almost $80 a bag at Petsmart for food! it doesn't have corn but surely isn't worth the money. Actually, vet diets are very transparent thankfully. but who knows for how long.


----------



## lindseycampbell358

I admit I don't know much about the nutrient ratios and levels, but I do agree with what you are saying about the carbs. I thought about that a lot even while I was feeding kibble. To me, carbs are carbs, and dogs and cats do not need carbs provided they get adequate protein and fat in their diets. And that is not just an opinion, that very line comes from the Merck Veterinary Handbook.  Obviously, you cant make kibble without carbohydrates, something has to hold everything together. So I do think whether your carb source is coming from rice, corn, sweet potatoes, peas, or whatever in the world else, it isn't necessary for the diet. So marketing DEFINITELY comes into play. Those whose argument about corn is that its mostly GMO, rice is not exempt from that list either. Unless it says organic, its not. Same goes for every other ingredient, of which you have no clue what the qulity is. I feed raw, so I have no particular brand in this discussion, its just always something I have found interesting also  Thanks for the great discussion topic Dr. D!


----------



## lindseycampbell358

Oh, and another thing I don't understand about the marketing thing, they cry against corn because its not a food that a wolf would seek out, yet all of these companies use either peas, sweet potatoes, potatoes, whatever. You wouldn't see a wolf eating any of those things?? Lol!


----------



## Shamrockmommy

NutroGeoff said:


> It looks to me like a pretty quality brand. It does have a lot of the things that most premium brand customers do look forin a dog food. The higher omega 6 will also be great for skin and coat. How does your dog do on this food?


Currently I have one of my 4 dogs on this brand. She is a bichon and has battled yeasty skin, ear infections, itching, and dark orange tear and beard staining. This food though, she has NONE of that. I'll be trying my PWD on this food in a few weeks when her Fromm grain free runs out. 

The food is Petguard Lifespan, by the way. 

The marketing angle is very interesting... how about a lesson on how to read/interpret the nutrient profile to discern quality. As for the dog food analysis site, I think it's pretty neat but I take it with a grain of salt.

ETA. The ingredient panel that I posted is NOT a grain free food and is not marketed for such. I generally prefer grain free foods (based on how terrible my own body does on them!) but this one I've always liked how the dogs do.


----------



## Shamrockmommy

How about another? Here's another of my favorites, although lately, with the 'squishy' body condition and huge, smelly stools I'm pretty sure I'm going to rotate out and try other things for a change. I KNOW this one is BIG about marketing, from the bag to all the variety of ingredients (which we know there are small quantities included). I've been aware of marketing with the fancy bags and all the 'extra' cutesy ingredients, but I Do go by how well the dogs do. The thing about this food- COAT. Tons of coat! 

Ingredients
Duck
Duck Meal
Peas
Turkey
Russet Potatoes
Pea Protein
Dried Tomato Pomace
Pea Flour
Whole Dried Egg
Quail
Chicken Meal
Chicken Fat
Salmon Oil
Sweet Potatoes
Chicken
Pheasant
Wisconsin Cheese
Flaxseed
Carrots
Broccoli
Cauliflower
Apples
Celery
Parsley
Lettuce
Spinach
Chicken Cartilage
Potassium Chloride
Cranberries
Blueberries
Salt
Chicory Root Extract
Yucca Schidigera Extract
Alfalfa Sprouts
Sodium Selenite
Folic Acid
Taurine
Vitamins
vitamin A acetate, Vitamin D3 supplement, Vitamin E supplement, Vitamin B12 supplement, choline bitartrate, niacin supplement, d-calcium pantothenate, L-Ascorbyl-2-polyphosphate, riboflavin supplement, thiamine mononitrate, pyridoxine hydrochloride, biotin
Minerals
zinc sulfate, ferrous sulfate, manganous sulfate, magnesium sulfate, copper sulfate, cobalt carbonate, calcium iodate, sorbic acid (preservative), ferrous proteinate, zinc proteinate, copper proteinate, magnesium proteinate, manganese proteinate, cobalt proteinate
Probiotics
dried lactobacillus acidophilus fermentation product, dried bifidobacterium longum fermentation product, dried lactobacillus plantarum fermentation product, dried enterococcus faecium fermentation product
Guaranteed Analysis
Protein	29% Min
Fat	17% Min
Fiber	3.5% Max
Moisture	10% Max
Omega 3 Fatty Acids	0.6% Min
Omega 6 Fatty Acids	2.7% Min
Total Microorganisms	220,264 CFU/g Min

View Detailed Analysis

Calorie Content
kcal/kg	4,047
kcal/lb	1,840
kcal/cup*	409


----------



## bett

Dr Dolittle said:


> Transparency? You have a better chance of seeing that from the Obama administration! That's what I have been saying and showing. Don't blame Hills! LOL! Some folks are paying almost $80 a bag at Petsmart for food! it doesn't have corn but surely isn't worth the money. Actually, vet diets are very transparent thankfully. but who knows for how long.


you must be jesting.
look at science diet labels for the ld food and find the protein in it.
while vet diets are "transparent" (not sure what you really mean by that as all dog food i've ever purchased has the ingredients for all to read, if you take the time), and vets tell you to use them, and perhaps they "work" for what they are supposed to fix as a short term fix, but the ingredients are lacking, in mho.
And, they are pricey.


----------



## domika

Shamrockmommy said:


> How about another? Here's another of my favorites, although lately, with the 'squishy' body condition and huge, smelly stools I'm pretty sure I'm going to rotate out and try other things for a change. I KNOW this one is BIG about marketing, from the bag to all the variety of ingredients (which we know there are small quantities included). I've been aware of marketing with the fancy bags and all the 'extra' cutesy ingredients, but I Do go by how well the dogs do. The thing about this food- COAT. Tons of coat!
> 
> ....
> 
> Wisconsin Cheese


Haha, I already know which one it is


----------



## Jace

> One thing I did notice, this food must be grain free and they neglected to put the total carb level in their gauranteed analysis.


Unfortunately this is an issue that the PFC at AAFCO has been dealing with for years. Currently, because carbs encompass dietary starch, sugars and fructans, it is not allowed on the label. They have proposed to allow the fractions to be listed, however that recommendation was hampered by the fact that the laboratory methods needed to determine and verify the guarantees are still lacking. Without valid methodology in place, it is very difficult to implement regulations to provide for these guarantees.


----------



## FBarnes

Dr Dolittle said:


> FBarnes, Thanks for the info. Not sure if you are trying to argue but your post confirms what I have been saying. To get chicken as the first ingredient in a low fat, high fiber diet takes quite a bit of dancing. The fiber source would probably be the heaviest, much like vet diabetic diets. Does it bother you that one company is doing what they all are as well? You are right. Food companies are playing the ingredient game to please the consumer. I am simply questioning, or wish you would question where this shift from nutrients and nutrition to ingredients started and by whom. I really like Hills statement about nutrients vs fad ingredients and they honor that in their vet diets, for now, but they are playing the game with Science Diet and their GrainnFree Ideal Balance. I appreciate your skepticism but curious why you seem to have trust for other companies. Ask yourself where that trust comes from. has their been any discussion on any of these threads about nutrients delivered by these ingredients? I wonder why? People in board rooms that have no clue about pets health are figuring out how to use our love and passion for our canine companions to sell us food and they couldn't care less about their health. When I look at their nutrient levels I can come to no other conclusion.


I have trust for NO companies. I don't feed dry food.

But I probably dislike Hill's the worst. Well, Purina is way up there with their Beneful and anyone with that ilk who put such lovely meats floating through the air on the TV. Science Diet is sold by vets as an Rx for profit. If a doctor did that they would lose their license. They put in things like sawdust and ingredients that are most likely to cause allergies in dogs, like grains. And coincidentally are the lowest cost. And then they charge top dollar.

But that condescending press release about darn, those ridiculous customers are actually looking at the ingredients so we'll have to change our food - to me, that shows their arrogance in spades.


----------



## FBarnes

Dr Dolittle said:


> Dog Food Advisor is a very hard working devoted dog lover who I can admire but all he does is perpetuate the ingredient game, though he doesn't know it. He has no clue of any nutrient levels and so he is as misguided as those that trust his work. I believe he is a dentist? I would respect him more if he would meet with some nutritionists from Purina, Hills, oral Canin and perhaps he would gain a different perspective. can't help but like the guy but he does need to broaden his horizons. I feel being as popular as he is he has a responsibility to go a bit further now. I read his story of how his dog died and he blamed the vet. very sad. I guess sincere grief can be a great motivator, even if misdirected.


This is a simplistic and condescending comment. And I have heard it before. Normally it's by people who make money selling a brand he criticizes.

In fact, I may be incorrect. I'm not even 100% positive it was him that put out the list. Here it is:
1. Beneful by Purina

2. Alpo by Purina

3. Ol Roy by Walmart 

4. Kibble N Bits

5. Purina Dog Chow

6. Pedigree

7. Hill’s Science Diet Original

Now, are you going to say these are GOOD dog foods? SD is mostly grain, regardless of the fact that "chicken" is the first ingredient. That's beyond deceptive. And their online ad brags "no chicken byproduct meal." Well, goodie. They have no chicken meal, either. They have wet weight chicken which cooks down to probably a tiny percent of the total weight of the food. Why don't they put THAT on their website???


----------



## Dr Dolittle

lindseycampbell358 said:


> Oh, and another thing I don't understand about the marketing thing, they cry against corn because its not a food that a wolf would seek out, yet all of these companies use either peas, sweet potatoes, potatoes, whatever. You wouldn't see a wolf eating any of those things?? Lol!


LOL! I have to laugh becasue it makes me cry when pet food marketers can get people to think feeding their dog like a wolf is a good idea. A wolf in his natural environment lives long enough to reproduce. There is no geriatrics in nature for dogs! They die from parasites, GI obstructions, malnutrition, all kinds of things. So lets really go natural and stop parasite control, vaccines, dental care, omega 3 supplements, etc. How silly. Yet feeding your dog a totally unbalanced expensive food somehow sounds right. Marketing!!!


----------



## Dr Dolittle

FBarnes said:


> This is a simplistic and condescending comment. And I have heard it before. Normally it's by people who make money selling a brand he criticizes.
> 
> In fact, I may be incorrect. I'm not even 100% positive it was him that put out the list. Here it is:
> 1. Beneful by Purina
> 
> 2. Alpo by Purina
> 
> 3. Ol Roy by Walmart
> 
> 4. Kibble N Bits
> 
> 5. Purina Dog Chow
> 
> 6. Pedigree
> 
> 7. Hill’s Science Diet Original
> 
> Now, are you going to say these are GOOD dog foods? SD is mostly grain, regardless of the fact that "chicken" is the first ingredient. That's beyond deceptive. And their online ad brags "no chicken byproduct meal." Well, goodie. They have no chicken meal, either. They have wet weight chicken which cooks down to probably a tiny percent of the total weight of the food. Why don't they put THAT on their website???


Hey FBarnes, Trying to keep up with you! I will tell you honestly, I thought I would never say this but knowing what I know, I would feed Purina Dog Chow before I would feed 90% of the foods mentioned here. Not to say Purina Dog Chow is great but it has improved over the years (kinda had to) I am curious why it bothers you that SD is late to the game of manipulating ingredient panels but I wonder if you have the same attitude to the food companies that exist only to market their foods that way. I love you disgust! Me too! But why so selective?


----------



## meggels

Dr Doolittle, I'm curious what foods/companies you like best?


----------



## Dr Dolittle

bett said:


> you must be jesting.
> look at science diet labels for the ld food and find the protein in it.
> while vet diets are "transparent" (not sure what you really mean by that as all dog food i've ever purchased has the ingredients for all to read, if you take the time), and vets tell you to use them, and perhaps they "work" for what they are supposed to fix as a short term fix, but the ingredients are lacking, in mho.
> And, they are pricey.


Bett, Science Diet is Hills over the counter food. As I have stated, ALL foods now are playing the game I am trying to explain on this thread. What I mean by tranparency (not my word but FBarnes) is that vet diets that treat and manage specific diseases have ingredient panels that have no manipulation at all, no marketing tricks, no meat first, no ingredient splitting. LOL! Some of those ingredient panels look downright weird! Even to me! But they do miraculous things becasue we know (From clinical research) how to manage kidney disease, dissolve urinary stones (which made the surgery to remove them obsoleteby the way!), to help diabetic animals to the point of not needing insulin.....I won't keep going but I could. I don't like it but I totally understand why Hills is playing the ingredient game with the foods they compete with in Petsmart. You mentioned the Hills ld so to confirm you mean the LD for liver disease? FBarnes will think I am being arrogant as I try to respond to you. Liver disease is one of the most complicated of diseases but unlike kidneys, the liver can regenerate. In order to do that we have to give this dog all the amino acids it needs but cannot allow the typical proteins like meat that will deliver high levels of nitrogen waste for the kidney and liver to have to deal with. In fact, unlike the healthy dog, this dog needs a different ratio of amino acids to reduce ammonia and the workload on the liver so it can repair itself. Therapeutic levels of L Carnitine to help the liver break down fat, again to reduce workload.....I'm going to bore you but the point is feeding that dog a diet with tons of meat protein whether in raw or kibble, will kill it! Period! We know it becasue we see it every day!Didn't reaslly wnat to get into RX diets on this thread. I really just wanted to help the kibble folks, not argue with raw folks, as I said when I started it.


----------



## Dr Dolittle

FBarnes said:


> I have trust for NO companies. I don't feed dry food.
> 
> But I probably dislike Hill's the worst. Well, Purina is way up there with their Beneful and anyone with that ilk who put such lovely meats floating through the air on the TV. Science Diet is sold by vets as an Rx for profit. If a doctor did that they would lose their license. They put in things like sawdust and ingredients that are most likely to cause allergies in dogs, like grains. And coincidentally are the lowest cost. And then they charge top dollar.
> 
> But that condescending press release about darn, those ridiculous customers are actually looking at the ingredients so we'll have to change our food - to me, that shows their arrogance in spades.


FBarnes, Don't want to bore eveyone and repeat myself so please read my next post to Bett. I will say RX diets would be a great discussion for another day, and I will have to try really hard to not sound arrogant, LOL! but I should say that when I started this thread I say you raw folks were on your own and I don't get into it since I just want to help kibble folks undestand how ingredient games of pet foods are played. Our anger at this misleading approach is mutual. Thats why you feed raw! Great! I am trying to be fair to all brands, avoiding names and specifics, and just try to interject another perspective. Understanding how we got to this marketing place is worth understanding.


----------



## LilasMom

Dr Dolittle said:


> Bett, Science Diet is Hills over the counter food. As I have stated, ALL foods now are playing the game I am trying to explain on this thread. What I mean by tranparency (not my word but FBarnes) is that vet diets that treat and manage specific diseases have ingredient panels that have no manipulation at all, no marketing tricks, no meat first, no ingredient splitting. LOL! Some of those ingredient panels look downright weird! Even to me! But they do miraculous things becasue we know (From clinical research) how to manage kidney disease, dissolve urinary stones (which made the surgery to remove them obsoleteby the way!), to help diabetic animals to the point of not needing insulin.....I won't keep going but I could. I don't like it but I totally understand why Hills is playing the ingredient game with the foods they compete with in Petsmart. You mentioned the Hills ld so to confirm you mean the LD for liver disease? FBarnes will think I am being arrogant as I try to respond to you. Liver disease is one of the most complicated of diseases but unlike kidneys, the liver can regenerate. In order to do that we have to give this dog all the amino acids it needs but cannot allow the typical proteins like meat that will deliver high levels of nitrogen waste for the kidney and liver to have to deal with. In fact, unlike the healthy dog, this dog needs a different ratio of amino acids to reduce ammonia and the workload on the liver so it can repair itself. Therapeutic levels of L Carnitine to help the liver break down fat, again to reduce workload.....I'm going to bore you but the point is* feeding that dog a diet with tons of meat protein whether in raw or kibble, will kill it! Period! *We know it becasue we see it every day!Didn't reaslly wnat to get into RX diets on this thread. I really just wanted to help the kibble folks, not argue with raw folks, as I said when I started it.


How is this true? My dogs eat ONLY meat and are super healthy. If you don't want to argue with the raw folks, then don't throw out statements like that.


----------



## Dr Dolittle

Shamrockmommy said:


> Currently I have one of my 4 dogs on this brand. She is a bichon and has battled yeasty skin, ear infections, itching, and dark orange tear and beard staining. This food though, she has NONE of that. I'll be trying my PWD on this food in a few weeks when her Fromm grain free runs out.
> 
> The food is Petguard Lifespan, by the way.
> 
> The marketing angle is very interesting... how about a lesson on how to read/interpret the nutrient profile to discern quality. As for the dog food analysis site, I think it's pretty neat but I take it with a grain of salt.
> 
> ETA. The ingredient panel that I posted is NOT a grain free food and is not marketed for such. I generally prefer grain free foods (based on how terrible my own body does on them!) but this one I've always liked how the dogs do.


Shamroclmommy! Do you realize you must be the first person so far in this thread to ask about nutrients????!!!!! Notice how we have all talked about ingredients, though we all realize the ingredient panel tells us little about those ingredients and we're saying things like "It looks like a good food."? Of course it looks like a good food! The marketing people get paid to make it look that way! Yes, let me think about the vest way to explain nutrient control and levels but let finish marketing first. I can see it is impossible to apprecaite nutrient levels until you understand ingredients. This has been helpful for me.


----------



## Dr Dolittle

LilasMom said:


> How is this true? My dogs eat ONLY meat and are super healthy. If you don't want to argue with the raw folks, then don't throw out statements like that.


Lilasmom, You are not killing jack and Lila becasue you feed them raw. But if Jack had kidney disease and lila had liver disease I could watch you continue to feed them a high protein, mainly meat diet and I would watch their blood and liver enzymes become more and more elevated, I'll watch them lose muscle mass, I'll watch them stop eating and lose all appitite and start drinking lots of water and peeing alot, and we will watch them die! Disease stinks! I have seen enough in 25 years that I'd rather never see it again. And pet food marketing is not helping. I know 2 dogs just this month who were on a vet diet becasue they developed calcium oxalate stones. They had to be removed surgically and needed a specail diet the rest of their lives to prevent recurrance. Well, both these pet owners were told how bad those RX diets were (sound familiar?) SO after years of health, they switched to grain free. BOTH came down with stones again within months. One had to endure surgery again and the other was too old and was put down. DEAD! That is when I hear how RX diets are garbage I have to really struggle to remain respectful. A cat and the owner edured an $800 surgery when they switched off one of those foods you all hate, after 13 yrs of health, to a natural food the pet store recommended. I checked the mineral levels of the food and no wonder! You all have been blessed with healthy animals and that is why some of you have the luxury of bashing these foods. I do pray you never need them!


----------



## Sapphire-Light

How we can rate the mineral levels? it has to do wit the ash amount?


----------



## LilasMom

I can't comment on the liver disease with raw because personally I have no experience, but wouldn't raw be okay since it is so diluted by water? For example, 85 grams of beef is only 31 grams of protein, and meat like chicken has even less. Plain chicken is only about 23-25% protein.


----------



## Dr Dolittle

Shamrockmommy said:


> How about another? Here's another of my favorites, although lately, with the 'squishy' body condition and huge, smelly stools I'm pretty sure I'm going to rotate out and try other things for a change. I KNOW this one is BIG about marketing, from the bag to all the variety of ingredients (which we know there are small quantities included). I've been aware of marketing with the fancy bags and all the 'extra' cutesy ingredients, but I Do go by how well the dogs do. The thing about this food- COAT. Tons of coat!
> 
> Ingredients
> Duck
> Duck Meal
> Peas
> Turkey
> Russet Potatoes
> Pea Protein
> Dried Tomato Pomace
> Pea Flour
> Whole Dried Egg
> Quail
> Chicken Meal
> Chicken Fat
> Salmon Oil
> Sweet Potatoes
> Chicken
> Pheasant
> Wisconsin Cheese
> Flaxseed
> Carrots
> Broccoli
> Cauliflower
> Apples
> Celery
> Parsley
> Lettuce
> Spinach
> Chicken Cartilage
> Potassium Chloride
> Cranberries
> Blueberries
> Salt
> Chicory Root Extract
> Yucca Schidigera Extract
> Alfalfa Sprouts
> Sodium Selenite
> Folic Acid
> Taurine
> Vitamins
> vitamin A acetate, Vitamin D3 supplement, Vitamin E supplement, Vitamin B12 supplement, choline bitartrate, niacin supplement, d-calcium pantothenate, L-Ascorbyl-2-polyphosphate, riboflavin supplement, thiamine mononitrate, pyridoxine hydrochloride, biotin
> Minerals
> zinc sulfate, ferrous sulfate, manganous sulfate, magnesium sulfate, copper sulfate, cobalt carbonate, calcium iodate, sorbic acid (preservative), ferrous proteinate, zinc proteinate, copper proteinate, magnesium proteinate, manganese proteinate, cobalt proteinate
> Probiotics
> dried lactobacillus acidophilus fermentation product, dried bifidobacterium longum fermentation product, dried lactobacillus plantarum fermentation product, dried enterococcus faecium fermentation product
> Guaranteed Analysis
> Protein	29% Min
> Fat	17% Min
> Fiber	3.5% Max
> Moisture	10% Max
> Omega 3 Fatty Acids	0.6% Min
> Omega 6 Fatty Acids	2.7% Min
> Total Microorganisms	220,264 CFU/g Min
> 
> View Detailed Analysis
> 
> Calorie Content
> kcal/kg	4,047
> kcal/lb	1,840
> kcal/cup*	409


LOL! Wow! Yes, this diet is definitely going for the atractive ingredients! Quite a variety of meat sources. I suppose gathering such somewhat exotic protein sources could be expensive so I could see this food being somewhat higher priced. Plus a consumer would expect to pay more. Most of those meat sources have basically the sane amino acid levels so it really is just for good looks. I think we'd all agree that ingredient panel makes all of us hungry! I bet it has a beautiful bag too. I will say the protein at 29% is quite high. And the fat at 17% makes me surprised its only 409 kcals per cup. Thats a bit high for most dogs but I would have guessed higher. I would feed this to a young active dog. I could see why the coat is so nice too. Again, like the other, it looks great to all of us. Which is the point I am trying to make. Sure it looks good. They are making sure it does! But is it the best for my dogs health vs another diet and how can you tell? Are they using high quality sources of those meats or junk?


----------



## Dr Dolittle

LilasMom said:


> I can't comment on the liver disease with raw because personally I have no experience, but wouldn't raw be okay since it is so diluted by water? For example, 85 grams of beef is only 31 grams of protein, and meat like chicken has even less. Plain chicken is only about 23-25% protein.


Yes, you are right. Dry foods can really concentrate protein and deliver some outrageous levels. Again, I must stress there is a big difference between nutrient requirements for healthy pets vs specific illnesses.


----------



## LilasMom

What nutrients does a dog with liver or kidney disease needs that raw can't provide?


----------



## Dr Dolittle

Sapphire-Light said:


> How we can rate the mineral levels? it has to do wit the ash amount?


Sapphire-Light! I would give you a prize for asking that! When is the last time you or any pet owner asked such a thing? The ash is total minerals, but doesn't tell you specific ones, as in calcium, phosphorus, sodium,etc. You have to call the company to get that. But how do you rate them. Well, by rating you mean what are the recommended levels? We want enough of course but too much can present problems, especially as our dogs age and all those age related diseases become a higher risk. Why would a food be higher in sodium??????????????You guessed it. Taste! SO I like comparing sodium levels. I will say only the worst foods will be high in sodium, compared to most. Why would a food be high in calcium or phosphorus? Wanna guess? Its too late tonite but I will share some actual comparisons but I want to finish the marketing tricks.....but thank you for asking!!!


----------



## Dr Dolittle

LilasMom said:


> What nutrients does a dog with liver or kidney disease needs that raw can't provide?


Lilasmom, If I showed you an ingredient panel for a dog with liver or kidney disease ( I am sure a few RX food bashers can rpovide one) ;-) you would freak! Just quickly, we need to get the protein (amino acids ) from other sources that will be easier on the kidneys and reduce the workload.These are ingredients that would be bashed on dog food advisor becasue he doesn't look at why they are there. We need specific levels of omega 3s becasue they have been shown to reduce the progression of the damage. Sodium needs to be controlled becasue with renal failure, hypertension eventually occurs. Theres buffering for the metabolic acidosis that builds up and starts muscel wasting if not reduced.....theres a bit to it. And thankfully all the vet companies make good renal diets, so lots of taste options for folks. Only a diet formulated specifically for that disease can be used to help. Or, you could say if your dog had a disease, any food that is not made specifically for that disease will harm your pet every time you feed it. It makes sense. Nutrition really isn't that confusing if we could get the marketeers to shut up!


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## Dr Dolittle

The Nutrional Statement on the bag...

This is a legal guarantee so its important.
The govt has decided that no food, even Old Roy, can be deficient in any of the
50+ nutrients that go into a dog food. Thats nice but as many of you will agree,
that doesn't mean those levels can be digested or assimilated by the animal. 

The other problem is that the govt is not concerned with excesses or imbalances. An example would be 
that almost all foods that say Senior have nutrient levels that match puppy foods! Excess moinerals that cause urinary stones or
increase risk of disease are ignored. SO a food company can decide how closely they regulate these nutrient levels,
based on the science as we know it at the time....and believe me, we are always learning more!

The nutritonal statement will say one of two things. It will say it has been through AFFCO feeding trials, which means the food was tested by being fed to real dogs. Though it is hardly the uptimate test of a food, years ago it was unheard of to release a food to the market that had never been fed before! But today, there are few foods made that way. It costs about $70,000 to do a feeding trial so why do it if no one cares? 

So go look at your bag of food. Does it say feeding trials conducted or does it use the term FORMULATED? If the word forumulated is in there it means basically a geek on a computer came up with a recipe of nutrient percentages adn sent it to a plant somehwere in KS, or maybe even their own, and the food was made, put in a bag that has tons of marketing research behind it, and shipped to Petsmart or your local All Natural Store, and the very first dog to actually eat it is yours! That would have never been accepted in the old days (Dating myself here!) Judging from this crowd's posts and what they like to feed, I am betting maybe no one will have a food witha feeding trial. DOES NOT mean the food is bad...or good. But it is a distinction in how easy it is to put a food out there with no research, no nutrional claims, no nutritionists involved, but a pretty bag that could sell as a Tshirt might just sell the stuff. Nowsadys one could argue that foods are simply reporducing their same formulas with different larketing angles and bags so do they really need to do those trials? They are simply trying to gain shelf space at Petsmart of the grocery store. Can Purina's ONE, Dog Chow, ProPlan, really be that different nutritonally? No, but they cater to a different audience. Sorry to pick on them, I am trying not to bash brands, but you know they sure have a ton of foods!

So next time, why do some say complete and balanced for adult maintenane and others say FOR ALL LIFESTAGES? Is there a difference?


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## bett

Dr Dolittle said:


> Bett, Science Diet is Hills over the counter food. As I have stated, ALL foods now are playing the game I am trying to explain on this thread. What I mean by tranparency (not my word but FBarnes) is that vet diets that treat and manage specific diseases have ingredient panels that have no manipulation at all, no marketing tricks, no meat first, no ingredient splitting. LOL! Some of those ingredient panels look downright weird! Even to me! But they do miraculous things becasue we know (From clinical research) how to manage kidney disease, dissolve urinary stones (which made the surgery to remove them obsoleteby the way!), to help diabetic animals to the point of not needing insulin.....I won't keep going but I could. I don't like it but I totally understand why Hills is playing the ingredient game with the foods they compete with in Petsmart. You mentioned the Hills ld so to confirm you mean the LD for liver disease? FBarnes will think I am being arrogant as I try to respond to you. Liver disease is one of the most complicated of diseases but unlike kidneys, the liver can regenerate. In order to do that we have to give this dog all the amino acids it needs but cannot allow the typical proteins like meat that will deliver high levels of nitrogen waste for the kidney and liver to have to deal with. In fact, unlike the healthy dog, this dog needs a different ratio of amino acids to reduce ammonia and the workload on the liver so it can repair itself. Therapeutic levels of L Carnitine to help the liver break down fat, again to reduce workload.....I'm going to bore you but the point is feeding that dog a diet with tons of meat protein whether in raw or kibble, will kill it! Period! We know it becasue we see it every day!Didn't reaslly wnat to get into RX diets on this thread. I really just wanted to help the kibble folks, not argue with raw folks, as I said when I started it.


ok, here goes. i too have little trust in dog food companies. and while my husband is a butcher, and i can and do get only prime (tho not organic) meats and non antibiotic plumped up chicken, one of my 3 labs barfs (no pun intended) from raw. she also has high eosinophil count and is allergic to god knows what. even home cooking didnt work well with her. sadly, she's on a regimen of pred until we can figure her out, which sadly, may not happen.
my distrust for dog food companies is not because of vangie, however. it is due to diamond and the fiasco last year. i dont think you were around then so i will try and briefly explain. all 3 of my dogs became ill (not salmonella) about 2 weeks apart, after always being on diamond kibble. diamond took my calls and emails, each and every time, telling me first, it wasnt that batch or that food. not true. then it wasnt that facility. not true. they jerked me around for weeks, blatantly lying to me and putting me off. (umm, that doesnt work with me, by the way) then they had the head vet review and review ad nauseum , my dog's records. it wasnt until the 3rd dog, my oldest, got sick, did my vet actually believe it was the food. all 3 had different intestinal stuff. rex, so severe, that an ultrasound was done of his liver, after his blood tests revealed 4x the norm. the internest wanted to do a needle guided biopsy but called us back to say she couldnt and that he would bleed out, as his blood no longer was coagulating. she declared him in liver failure with weeks to live. needless to say, we were devasted and PISSED beyond belief. meanwhile, i was still being jerked around by diamond, as their issue spread from one facility to another, and my vet bills kept going. at this time, rex was put on the ld food. and i began researching what to do for him. 
at the same time, i continued my quest with diamond to get them to admit that their tainted food caused all of this. finally, frustrated, i contacted ch 2 news, who responded within 4 hours and 2 hours after that, was in my living room, interviewing me, for the 11 o'clock new that evening. the next day, coincidentally, my records were turned over by diamond, to their insurer who was kind, caring, and paid me $3750. in vet bills. however i still had a very sick dog.

i researched until my eyeballs popped out, getting rex chinese herbs, along with sam-e and milk thistle. he was no longer on the meds he started on, or the lovely food, which when you read the label, made me sick. perhaps , as you say, it does what it is supposed to do, but i was not keeping him on that food, where i couldnt find the protein. and in terms of protein and liver disease-i believe it does depend on WHY the dog has liver disease and not all liver disease dogs need limited protein diets.it actually is really the ammonia in certain proteins, that is detrimental to a dog with liver issues. 

needless to say, i believe the best diet for a dog with liver disease is a home cooked diet. and i dont mean , just cooking some burger and slapping it down. there is a process to this magic. rex is fed either salmon, (or cod) or chicken, or beef, at a 40% ratio to 40% cooked veggies (also specific ones) and 20$ carbs (i chose sweet potato most of the time). i use organic veggies whenever possible (frozen from bj"s) and organic sweet potatoes as well.
i also supplement with the appropriate vitamins (and there are many) so that his diet isnt lacking, which often occurs when someone just "home cooks".
i also believe, to properly feed a dog with liver disease, one must know the type of issues the dog has or they can not be properly fed. not all dogs with liver disease need a restricted protein diet.

i dont pretend to be a nutritionist and didnt take on this task lightly or without assistance. however , no assistance from my vet as they suggest the ld diet. period. not saying it doesnt work just saying, after reading the ingredients, i couldnt do it.
and as of late, i do believe there is marketing and advertising from these companies, just as there is when you look at the pretty bags of dog kibble in the store. just go into any vet's office and look at their display. and listen to the vet.

not.

meanwhile, i am happy to report, that rex is alive and well, with normal levels, 14 months after they pronounced him in liver failure.
in addition, my vet had a consultation with me, at his request, which lasted 45 minutes, for me to tell him about the chinese herbs, and the home cooked diet. we have had a long and friendly relationship throughout many years and many dogs, and he knows me well enough to know that i advocate for my pets, and never just do what is suggested without fully understanding it.

all that being said, i have a two other labs, who eat kibble -and i am still phobic about most dog food companies.


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## naturalfeddogs

Dr Dolittle said:


> LOL! I have to laugh becasue it makes me cry when pet food marketers can get people to think feeding their dog like a wolf is a good idea. A wolf in his natural environment lives long enough to reproduce. There is no geriatrics in nature for dogs! They die from parasites, GI obstructions, malnutrition, all kinds of things. So lets really go natural and stop parasite control, vaccines, dental care, omega 3 supplements, etc. How silly. Yet feeding your dog a totally unbalanced expensive food somehow sounds right. Marketing!!!


I wouldn't say NO, but there may be fewer geriatrics in the wild because of harsh environments, (our dogs are in the house, given shelter) and due to injuries. They have to team up and kill their own food, which out weighs them by hundreds and hundreds of pounds. A kick can break jaws and legs, which in turn means the wolf in the wild not physically able to hunt and eat. Sometimes large prey is scarce, so they eat smaller prey like rabbits and anything else they can get a hold of. They may go days without eating at all. THAT is where any malnutrition comes in to play there, not because of the nutrition of the food itself. If meat is plentiful, all is good. Wolves haven't been around so long for no reason.

Our dogs don't have to hunt down their food. We don't expect them to go kill their own cows, deer, buffalo etc....... We just give it to them.They never miss a meal. 

My dogs haven't had parasites now in the last two years, AT ALL, and very few fleas,no ticks. They get plenty of bone in their diets, so dental care has never been needed, I had them titered last year for the first time, immunity is right where it should be, with no vaccines. I do however give fish oil, because by dogs aren't lucky enough to be able to eat only grass fed red meats for enough omegas.


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## Jacksons Mom

This is a super interesting thread. Great read. Thx Dr Doolittle.

It took me a really long time to really sit down and THINK about the stuff I used to spout off on forums. If people came on asking about a food, it was immediately me stating : "no corn, no byproducts, no wheat, no soy, first 3-5 ingredients should be named meat meals". Why was I saying this? I really had no idea... it just kind of came so natural, if you read something enough times, you'll believe it, without any REAL thought or research to it. I had no idea about calcium/phosphorus percentages and ash, and just any thing technical. 

Now, I can't even imagine feeding over half the foods I used to recommend. I'm not saying ingredients _aren't_ important because I still can't get myself to go out and buy a bag of Purina or Royal Canin and start feeding it to my dog, because I look at the ingredients and just can't get myself to do it. I'm just not sure I believe all dogs will do well with certain types of food. I mean I have noticed differences between Jackson and different food brands. He did horrible IMO on Fromm after being on it somewhat long-term. But I honestly don't know HOW he would do on a food like Royal Canin because I've just never fed it long-term. Would I notice differences? Who knows.

I think a lot of the anecdotal evidence is easy to misconstrue also. A lot of people will be like "but I've seen dogs on Royal Canin and they look horrible!" but I have to wonder, where did the dog come from? how often is it bathed/groomed? how often is it exercised? what kind of environment does it live in? etc, I just think there are sooo many factors. I've seen a lot of dogs on Orijen, etc that just look meh, so-so, and I've also seen dogs on Eukanuba look fantastic. If Jackson continues to be groomed professionally, well exercised, etc, would he still stay in the same condition if fed, say, Royal Canin? Maybe... who knows... I've noticed chicken in general seems to cause him to have goopier eyes and softer/bigger poo, so I've always avoided chicken based formulas, which it what it seems like all of these supposedly well tested and researched brands have. And I do think manufacturer and company and origin of the food is very important. 

I'm pretty much in agreement with everything you're saying, Doc, but I still can't get myself to believe it's necessarily 'better' still. I just don't know.


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## meggels

Dr Dolittle said:


> The Nutrional Statement on the bag...
> 
> This is a legal guarantee so its important.
> The govt has decided that no food, even Old Roy, can be deficient in any of the
> 50+ nutrients that go into a dog food. Thats nice but as many of you will agree,
> that doesn't mean those levels can be digested or assimilated by the animal.
> 
> The other problem is that the govt is not concerned with excesses or imbalances. An example would be
> that almost all foods that say Senior have nutrient levels that match puppy foods! Excess moinerals that cause urinary stones or
> increase risk of disease are ignored. SO a food company can decide how closely they regulate these nutrient levels,
> based on the science as we know it at the time....and believe me, we are always learning more!
> 
> The nutritonal statement will say one of two things. It will say it has been through AFFCO feeding trials, which means the food was tested by being fed to real dogs. Though it is hardly the uptimate test of a food, years ago it was unheard of to release a food to the market that had never been fed before! But today, there are few foods made that way. It costs about $70,000 to do a feeding trial so why do it if no one cares?
> 
> So go look at your bag of food. Does it say feeding trials conducted or does it use the term FORMULATED? If the word forumulated is in there it means basically a geek on a computer came up with a recipe of nutrient percentages adn sent it to a plant somehwere in KS, or maybe even their own, and the food was made, put in a bag that has tons of marketing research behind it, and shipped to Petsmart or your local All Natural Store, and the very first dog to actually eat it is yours! That would have never been accepted in the old days (Dating myself here!) Judging from this crowd's posts and what they like to feed, I am betting maybe no one will have a food witha feeding trial. DOES NOT mean the food is bad...or good. But it is a distinction in how easy it is to put a food out there with no research, no nutrional claims, no nutritionists involved, but a pretty bag that could sell as a Tshirt might just sell the stuff. Nowsadys one could argue that foods are simply reporducing their same formulas with different larketing angles and bags so do they really need to do those trials? They are simply trying to gain shelf space at Petsmart of the grocery store. Can Purina's ONE, Dog Chow, ProPlan, really be that different nutritonally? No, but they cater to a different audience. Sorry to pick on them, I am trying not to bash brands, but you know they sure have a ton of foods!
> 
> So next time, why do some say complete and balanced for adult maintenane and others say FOR ALL LIFESTAGES? Is there a difference?



I personally feed Annamaet to my dogs, both are doing well. My frenchie, who was fed premade raw for a year and a half, actually looks amazing and the best he has on Annamaet. I do believe that Annamaet does feeding trials.

It seems you missed my question before...what companies do you support/think are trustworthy/aren't full of marketing gimmicks especially with their ingredient lists?


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## bett

i believe (but not hand on the bible swear) that fromm does feeding trials with dogs from local kennels (they dont have their own dogs).
i'll try and research further.

from their websiteoes Fromm test their products on animals?
Fromm Family Foods does not conduct laboratory tests on animals. Instead we conduct feeding trials with trusted local breeders and kennels.


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## bett

and then there is this:Pet Food Feeding Trials | Truth about Pet Food


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## Dr Dolittle

bett said:


> and then there is this:Pet Food Feeding Trials | Truth about Pet Food


ett, As I stated, feeding trials are hardly the best test of a food but I wanted to explain the difference on the bag....and how even that minimum has been thrown out. I would love to see a more stringent test of foods. here you will agree with me...the large grocery companies that sell tons more food than any so called premium, will make sure the bags will never allow a consumer to be able to tell a good food from a bad one.


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## Dr Dolittle

bett said:


> i believe (but not hand on the bible swear) that fromm does feeding trials with dogs from local kennels (they dont have their own dogs).
> i'll try and research further.
> 
> from their websiteoes Fromm test their products on animals?
> Fromm Family Foods does not conduct laboratory tests on animals. Instead we conduct feeding trials with trusted local breeders and kennels.


It's been years since the last time I looked at Fromm nutrient levels but I remember liking them. I believe the guy that stated Fromm came from Hills, but I could be wrong. LOL! I don't know that I'd call feeding trials lab tests, though it does include some. Again, just trying to help decipher what the bag means.


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## Dr Dolittle

hey Jackson's mom, You made my day! You are so right. we so often just drink the koto laid and repeat what we hear, and even get pretty passionate about it! Critical thinking isn't very popular these days.

thanks for the kind words! I try to just educate though I know I can get preachy!


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## bett

no, fromm has zero to do with hills (lol, is right). they're a family run business, and in the 1930's developed the distemper vaccine. very old company, and never ever a recall. that in itself, makes me more comfy.


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## Dr Dolittle

Meggels, Sorry I missed it.LOL! It's getting hard to keep up with the nice folks and those wanting to argue (just kidding, THOUGH THEY KNOW WHO THEY ARE,). I come for a different life experience than you all as far as pet food, having watched it all change. I think FBarnes said he trusts no company. ad to say, that's pretty smart. I believe in quality research and clinical studies so I watch Purina, Hills, and Royal Canin and the products they make. I enjoy listening to nutritionists compare and discuss the latest studies. So though all these foods make over the counter foods and play the ingredient game, I tend to focus on the RX diets Each company makes certain diets for certain diseases better than others. they all make good renal and GI diets but urinary, weight, and joint diets vary dramatically. As someone stated, probably Bett or FBarnes, studies can be manipulated too so you have to know the researchers and listen to how their peers discuss the research. Did they melt stones in a Petri dish or in real cats? Did they come up with a conclusion that didn't even fit the results? I suppose it's a game too but with lots more facts. 

Example? Purina did an excellent study with Labs and found that dogs kept at their healthy weight lived an average 2 years more. Itbwas a very well done study and was published. Well, the marketing people from Purina took that and you may have see a TV commercial stating that clinical studies prove if you feed Purina Puppy Chow and Dog Chow CORRECTLY, your pet will live an average 2 more years! have you seen it and wondered how that could be possible? LOL! There's an example of me trusting a companies research but not trusting their marketing dept! these researchers are some of the most brilliant smart and dog loving people you will ever meet, so it saddens me when people say these studies are rigged by food companies. To the contrary, they want to be the ones to make the big, awesome discoveries that continue to be made. Imam trying to stay neutral so I'd rather not promote what I feed.


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## Dr Dolittle

bett said:


> no, fromm has zero to do with hills (lol, is right). they're a family run business, and in the 1930's developed the distemper vaccine. very old company, and never ever a recall. that in itself, makes me more comfy.


Again, might be mistaken but it was back in the Albany,NY area, Fromm was new on the scene as far as food anyway and I wish I could remember the guys name. It's been a lot of years and a lot of foods! I like family owned success stories, Bil Jackmis another neat story!


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## bett

History - Fromm Family Foods

i doubt fromm was new on the scene. maybe not well known but read the history of the company.


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## Dr Dolittle

bett said:


> History - Fromm Family Foods
> 
> i doubt fromm was new on the scene. maybe not well known but read the history of the company.


Bett, Wow, that is really interesting. I didn't know they were that old. It was in the 80's and they were new to the retailers in that area because I remember everyone talking about it. In those years other companies were also branching out in distribution. As I said BilJack has a similar American family story. Fromm may have hired someone from Hills back then because I still remember something about it. Back then it would have been a compliment to Fromm in retailers minds so it wasn't meant as a put down! I would imagine as they've grown they have hired folks outside the family!I might have to check out their nutrient levels. I like promoting foods that market well (I guess they all do now) but also have healthy nutrient levels.


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## Dr Dolittle

NATURALFEDDOGS, Can't disagree with you. I think it needs to be noted that you and most on this thread are much more devoted to your animals. And trust me, even if I disagree with many of you. e have to remember most folks are simply going to buy a bag or cans based on marketing and won't give it much thought. That is the dog owner I deal with, not folks like here.


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## LilasMom

Dr Dolittle, it has been asked here before, what food do you feed or recommend?


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## Celt

What do you think of this food:
salmon, salmon meal, dried ground peas, tapioca, pea protein, fish meal, dried plain beet pulp, poultry fat (preserved mixed tocopherols), dried carrots, sunflower oilnatural flavor, whole potato, calcium carbonate, salt, flaxseed, potassium chloride, zinc proteinate, vitamin E suplement, Iron proteinate, choline chloride, L-ascorbyl-2-polyphosphate (source of vitamin c), manganese proteinate, copper proteinate, niacin, d-calcium pantothenate, l-carnitine, biotin, sodium selenite, vitamin a supplement, riboflavin supplement, thiamine mononitrate, vitamin b12 supplement, calcium iodate, pyridoxine hydrochloride (source of vitamin B6), vitamin D3 supplement, folic acid

crude protein: min 24%
crude fat: min 15%
crude fiber: max 5%
moisture: max 10%
linoleic acid: min 3.5%
zinc: min 250 mg/kg
vitamin E: min 250 IU/kg
*alpha-linolenic acid (ALA): min 0.2%
*ascorbic acid (source of vitamin C): min 35 mg/kg
*DHA: min 0.2%
*l-carnitine: min 15 mg/kg


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## Dr Dolittle

Celt said:


> What do you think of this food:
> salmon, salmon meal, dried ground peas, tapioca, pea protein, fish meal, dried plain beet pulp, poultry fat (preserved mixed tocopherols), dried carrots, sunflower oilnatural flavor, whole potato, calcium carbonate, salt, flaxseed, potassium chloride, zinc proteinate, vitamin E suplement, Iron proteinate, choline chloride, L-ascorbyl-2-polyphosphate (source of vitamin c), manganese proteinate, copper proteinate, niacin, d-calcium pantothenate, l-carnitine, biotin, sodium selenite, vitamin a supplement, riboflavin supplement, thiamine mononitrate, vitamin b12 supplement, calcium iodate, pyridoxine hydrochloride (source of vitamin B6), vitamin D3 supplement, folic acid
> 
> crude protein: min 24%
> crude fat: min 15%
> crude fiber: max 5%
> moisture: max 10%
> linoleic acid: min 3.5%
> zinc: min 250 mg/kg
> vitamin E: min 250 IU/kg
> *alpha-linolenic acid (ALA): min 0.2%
> *ascorbic acid (source of vitamin C): min 35 mg/kg
> *DHA: min 0.2%
> *l-carnitine: min 15 mg/kg


hey Celt, salmon meal and pea are the protein combination to pretty unique. Might be a it higher in Omeag 3's with the salmon. pea protein or pea protein concentrate is becoming common in foods lately, obviously must be a nice additional amino acid profile to enhance the meat source.The ratio of protein being moderate and the fat being a bit higher than normal makes me quests this is a good higher energy food with a little less protein. I like that since most foods are way too high in protein. Vit E at 250 is better than some but I'd rather see higher. The C is way too low. If you look at the L-Carnitine level, 15 mg is ridiculously low. For dogs it needs to be up around 300 mg, about 500 mg for cats. L-Carnitine is a vitamin/amino acid like nutrient that is approved by the FDA for people. It helps your body metabolize fat and maintain muscle. You will find therapeutic levels in RX diets treating liver disease and obesity among others.

To note: Food companies are choosing some nutrients to list on their bags. With salmon, this one could have put Omega 3's but elected to put L-Carnitine. AAFCO has not sat down since 1985 to update the Guaranted Analysis so that it why you will see "not recocognized as a nutrient by AAFCO. It doesn't mean it's not a great nutrient, they just haven't updated the rules in all these years.

Again, without nutrient levels I have no idea how good this food is. Does it say for Maintenance or ALL life stages?


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## Jan Fred

> Particular foods since they all play the same game. Though to be fair, vet diets work with a whole different set of rules, the tricks of the trade are practiced by all food companies marketed to healthy pets....and I wish they didn't work so well! God Bless!


 What do you mean by saying this? I'm interested on what you are trying to mean by this passage, it is _business_, what you mean here?


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## LilasMom

Dr Dolittle said:


> hey Celt, salmon meal and pea are the protein combination to pretty unique. Might be a it higher in Omeag 3's with the salmon. pea protein or pea protein concentrate is becoming common in foods lately, obviously must be a nice additional amino acid profile to enhance the meat source.The ratio of protein being moderate and the fat being a bit higher than normal makes me quests this is a good higher energy food with a little less protein. I like that since most foods are way too high in protein. Vit E at 250 is better than some but I'd rather see higher. The C is way too low. If you look at the L-Carnitine level, 15 mg is ridiculously low. For dogs it needs to be up around 300 mg, about 500 mg for cats. L-Carnitine is a vitamin/amino acid like nutrient that is approved by the FDA for people. It helps your body metabolize fat and maintain muscle. You will find therapeutic levels in RX diets treating liver disease and obesity among others.
> 
> To note: Food companies are choosing some nutrients to list on their bags. With salmon, this one could have put Omega 3's but elected to put L-Carnitine. AAFCO has not sat down since 1985 to update the Guaranted Analysis so that it why you will see "not recocognized as a nutrient by AAFCO. It doesn't mean it's not a great nutrient, they just haven't updated the rules in all these years.
> 
> Again, without nutrient levels I have no idea how good this food is. Does it say for Maintenance or ALL life stages?


You keep criticizing foods on here but won't recommend one. What food do you feed/recommend?


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## FBarnes

Dr Dolittle said:


> Lilasmom, You are not killing jack and Lila becasue you feed them raw. But if Jack had kidney disease and lila had liver disease I could watch you continue to feed them a high protein, mainly meat diet and I would watch their blood and liver enzymes become more and more elevated, I'll watch them lose muscle mass, I'll watch them stop eating and lose all appitite and start drinking lots of water and peeing alot, and we will watch them die! Disease stinks! I have seen enough in 25 years that I'd rather never see it again. And pet food marketing is not helping. I know 2 dogs just this month who were on a vet diet becasue they developed calcium oxalate stones. They had to be removed surgically and needed a specail diet the rest of their lives to prevent recurrance. Well, both these pet owners were told how bad those RX diets were (sound familiar?) SO after years of health, they switched to grain free. BOTH came down with stones again within months. One had to endure surgery again and the other was too old and was put down. DEAD! That is when I hear how RX diets are garbage I have to really struggle to remain respectful. A cat and the owner edured an $800 surgery when they switched off one of those foods you all hate, after 13 yrs of health, to a natural food the pet store recommended. I checked the mineral levels of the food and no wonder! You all have been blessed with healthy animals and that is why some of you have the luxury of bashing these foods. I do pray you never need them!


A raw diet doesn't have very high protein. I know several people who successfully feed dogs with stones raw. Dalmations, who are prone to stones, do more of a BARF diet I think since they can't eat alot of red meat - not because of the proteins - but still raw. 

I have not been blessed with healthy animals. I have a dog with alot of health problems. I am feeding raw BECAUSE she is so sickly, not in spite of it.

I've also had a dog with liver enzymes off the scale, due to eating poison berries. He is 100% healthy now. There is a difference in raw and grain-free. All raw meat has somewhere around 20% protein.


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## FBarnes

Dr Dolittle said:


> Bett, Science Diet is Hills over the counter food. As I have stated, ALL foods now are playing the game I am trying to explain on this thread. What I mean by tranparency (not my word but FBarnes) is that vet diets that treat and manage specific diseases have ingredient panels that have no manipulation at all, no marketing tricks, no meat first, no ingredient splitting. LOL! Some of those ingredient panels look downright weird! Even to me! But they do miraculous things becasue we know (From clinical research) how to manage kidney disease, dissolve urinary stones (which made the surgery to remove them obsoleteby the way!), to help diabetic animals to the point of not needing insulin.....I won't keep going but I could. I don't like it but I totally understand why Hills is playing the ingredient game with the foods they compete with in Petsmart. You mentioned the Hills ld so to confirm you mean the LD for liver disease? FBarnes will think I am being arrogant as I try to respond to you. Liver disease is one of the most complicated of diseases but unlike kidneys, the liver can regenerate. In order to do that we have to give this dog all the amino acids it needs but cannot allow the typical proteins like meat that will deliver high levels of nitrogen waste for the kidney and liver to have to deal with. In fact, unlike the healthy dog, this dog needs a different ratio of amino acids to reduce ammonia and the workload on the liver so it can repair itself. Therapeutic levels of L Carnitine to help the liver break down fat, again to reduce workload.....I'm going to bore you but the point is feeding that dog a diet with tons of meat protein whether in raw or kibble, will kill it! Period! We know it becasue we see it every day!Didn't reaslly wnat to get into RX diets on this thread. I really just wanted to help the kibble folks, not argue with raw folks, as I said when I started it.


Not sure why you would think the Hills Rx foods don't do ingredients splitting. Here's i/d with two corn ingredients:
Ingredients: *Whole grain corn*, brewers rice, dried egg product, chicken by-product meal, *corn gluten meal*, pork fat (preserved with mixed tocopherols and citric acid), powdered cellulose, lactic acid, dicalcium phosphate, chicken liver flavor, iodized salt, potassium citrate, choline chloride, calcium carbonate, potassium chloride, dried beet pulp, soybean oil, vitamins (l-ascorbyl-2-polyphosphate (source of vitamin C), vitamin E supplement, niacin, thiamine mononitrate, vitamin A supplement, calcium pantothenate, biotin, vitamin B12 supplement, pyridoxine hydrochloride, riboflavin, folic acid, vitamin D3 supplement), taurine, minerals (ferrous sulfate, zinc oxide, copper sulfate, manganous oxide, calcium iodate, sodium selenite), preserved with mixed tocopherols & citric acid, phosphoric acid, beta-carotene, rosemary extract


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## Celt

It is an all life stages food. I don't feed this food exclusively, so a little down in something isn't a big deal to me. Since I feed mostly raw, the protein level seems decent and although my pups aren't high energy, they do have a high metabolism. I thought dogs produced vitamin C like most other critters.

Lilasmom, I think Dr. Dolittle said he wasn't going to reccommend any foods, just discuss the "make up" of various foods, using his experience/knowledge, which is why he prefers just the information on the food and not the name.


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## Dr Dolittle

FBarnes said:


> Not sure why you would think the Hills Rx foods don't do ingredients splitting. Here's i/d with two corn ingredients:
> Ingredients: *Whole grain corn*, brewers rice, dried egg product, chicken by-product meal, *corn gluten meal*, pork fat (preserved with mixed tocopherols and citric acid), powdered cellulose, lactic acid, dicalcium phosphate, chicken liver flavor, iodized salt, potassium citrate, choline chloride, calcium carbonate, potassium chloride, dried beet pulp, soybean oil, vitamins (l-ascorbyl-2-polyphosphate (source of vitamin C), vitamin E supplement, niacin, thiamine mononitrate, vitamin A supplement, calcium pantothenate, biotin, vitamin B12 supplement, pyridoxine hydrochloride, riboflavin, folic acid, vitamin D3 supplement), taurine, minerals (ferrous sulfate, zinc oxide, copper sulfate, manganous oxide, calcium iodate, sodium selenite), preserved with mixed tocopherols & citric acid, phosphoric acid, beta-carotene, rosemary extract


hey FBarnes, Whole Grain corn is a carbohydrate, using the whole kernel. As well as brewer's rice. brewer's rice is a by product of ...the beer industry. Sounds awful but it is an ingredient with extremely consistent nutrients so is really better choice in a therapeutic diet rather than natural whole grain brown rice. One sounds better but not in this case. Corn gluten meal is actually a protein source, the heart inside the corn kernel. So they are very different ingredients with very different purposes. But I could see why you would think ingredient games being played. You will notice chicken by product meal, corn gluten meal and egg are the protein sources. Cellulose is an excellent fiber source for these dogs. remember this is a diet for GI compromise and usually is just short term. There are other diets for dogs with chronic GI disease.

Kind of interesting that this is probably the best performing GI diet in vet clinics, a diet to be easy to digest and corn is the first ingredient! I wish people would wonder how it can work so well and who are the people that started the idea corn is hard to digest. Should make us think.


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## Dr Dolittle

Jan Fred said:


> What do you mean by saying this? I'm interested on what you are trying to mean by this passage, it is _business_, what you mean here?


Companies that make therapeutic diets do not play the marketing games surrounding ingredients and popular ideas like feeding your dog like a wolf, etc. It is a very different world. Vets are looking for (at least good vets that have an interest in nutrition) will ask not only about any studies, but who performed them, were they blind or double blind where the participants had no idea of brand or company. Certain researchers are more respected than other, certain universities are more trusted in different areas of study, etc. There is always debate, which is good since science has a way of finding in time we were wrong, but it is a whole different conversation than this forum. A nutritionist is only interested in the ingredients as far as the nutrients they provide in the finished product. The real test of an RX diet, by any brand, is how well it performs in the hospital. Saving dog's lives! Is it a business? Of course it is! It takes money to do studies, pay for the top nutritionists in the world, maintain human standards of quality controls, etc. I can list all the discoveries in the last few decades that have changed how we feed dogs and cats. that costs money! Hope that clarified what I meant.


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## Dr Dolittle

LilasMom said:


> You keep criticizing foods on here but won't recommend one. What food do you feed/recommend?


LilasMom, I am not criticizing but just pointing out what I see. I think we can agree there is no awful food or wonderful food, based on the ingredient panel. I'm just trying to help you see some things veterinary nutritionists might look at. My example of L-Carnitine is based on research done at Cornell University by Dr Sharon Center back in the 80s and that is where those levels were determined. very few diets have therapeutic levels. And those studies were independent. Food companies can evaluate that research and decide if they want to include those levels in their food or not. Vitamin E has been studied in numerous studies as well. As Celt said I really joined here to help give a different perspective, based on the facts as I know them. I am not here to promote any one food. I think if I do that it will ruin my objectivity (Though obviously all of our objectivity is laced with bias).  For what it's worth, the best researchers seem to be women! And I won't say more than that!


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## bett

Water, Rice, Egg Product, Chicken Fat, Soybean Meal, Soybean Oil, Corn Starch, Chicken Liver Flavor, Corn Gluten Meal, Powered Cellulose, Fish Oil, Dicalcium Phosphate, Potassium Chloride, Dried Beet Pulp, Calcium Carbonate, L-Lysine, vitamins (Vitamin E Supplement, Ascorbic Acid (source of vitamin C), Niacin Supplement, Thiamine Mononitrate, Vitamin A Supplement, Calcium Pantothenate, Biotin, Vitamin B12 Supplement, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride, Riboflavin Supplement, Folic Acid, Vitamin D3 Supplement, Menadione Sodium Bisulfite Complex (source of vitamin K)),L-Arginine, Iodized Salt, Choline Chloride, Taurine, minerals (Zinc Oxide, Manganous Oxide, Calcium Iodate, Sodium Selenite), L-Carnitine, L-Tryptophan, Beta-Carotene.


Nutrient
Dry Matter1
%
Protein	17.6
Fat	24.2
Carbohydrate (NFE)	49.3
Crude Fiber	3.3
Calcium	0.85
Phosphorus	0.6
Sodium	0.20
Potassium	0.95
Magnesium	0.098
Carnitine	305 ppm
Iron	118 mg/kg
Zinc	258 mg/kg
Copper	4.2 mg/kg
Vitamin C	190 mg/kg
Vitamin E	693 IU/kg
Vitamin K	0.13 mg/kg

this is the ingredient list for the hills ld dog food.(wet)

and the dry:Brewers Rice, Pork Fat (preserved with mixed tocopherols and citric acid), Dried Egg Product, Soybean Meal, Powdered Cellulose, Flaxseed, Pork Protein Isolate, Chicken Liver Flavor, Dicalcium Phosphate, Lactic Acid, Soybean Oil, Potassium Chloride, Dried Beet Pulp, Calcium Carbonate, Glycerol Monostearate, vitamins (Vitamin E Supplement, L-Ascorbyl-2-Polyphosphate (source of vitamin C), Niacin, Thiamine Mononitrate, Vitamin A Supplement, Calcium Pantothenate, Biotin, Vitamin B12 Supplement, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride, Riboflavin, Vitamin D3 Supplement, Folic Acid, Menadione Dimethylpyrimidinol Bisulfite (source of vitamin K)), Choline Chloride, Iodized Salt, L-Arginine, Taurine, DL-Methionine, minerals (Zinc Oxide, Manganous Oxide, Calcium Iodate, Sodium Selenite), L-Carnitine, L-Tryptophan, preserved with Mixed Tocopherols & Citric Acid, Phosphoric Acid, Beta-Carotene, Rosemary Extract.	Dry Matter1
%
Protein	17.8
Fat	24.4
Carbohydrate (NFE)	48.5
Crude Fiber	3.8
Calcium	0.81
Phosphorus	0.63
Sodium	0.21
Potassium	0.93
Magnesium	0.099
Carnitine	334 ppm
Iron	122 mg/kg
Zinc	302 mg/kg
Copper	4.6 mg/kg
Vitamin K	0.02 mg/kg


any wonder why i home cook for rex?


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## FBarnes

Dr Dolittle said:


> hey FBarnes, Whole Grain corn is a carbohydrate, using the whole kernel. As well as brewer's rice. brewer's rice is a by product of ...the beer industry. Sounds awful but it is an ingredient with extremely consistent nutrients so is really better choice in a therapeutic diet rather than natural whole grain brown rice. One sounds better but not in this case. Corn gluten meal is actually a protein source, the heart inside the corn kernel. So they are very different ingredients with very different purposes. But I could see why you would think ingredient games being played. You will notice chicken by product meal, corn gluten meal and egg are the protein sources. Cellulose is an excellent fiber source for these dogs. remember this is a diet for GI compromise and usually is just short term. There are other diets for dogs with chronic GI disease.
> 
> Kind of interesting that this is probably the best performing GI diet in vet clinics, a diet to be easy to digest and corn is the first ingredient! I wish people would wonder how it can work so well and who are the people that started the idea corn is hard to digest. Should make us think.


Funny how it did nothing but make my sick dog sicker.... it sure made ME think.

Any vegetable is digestible to dogs when cooked and/or pureed. I don't think anyone would argue that corn in a dog food isn't digestible.

But it's not in there because it's so digestible. It's in there because it's cheap. And cellulose - honestly, I don't know how anyone defends sawdust in dog food. Some of their foods are up to 15% cellulose PLUS another 10% or so of peanut hulls - and guess what? Those foods are about 20% protein - just like raw meat. 

What anyone who takes the time to look will find - but vets won't tell people - is that dogs have a zero daily requirement for carbs. As in, none. So why is it that so many people think carbs are not only good but necessary? Because it sells kibble.

I had a foster dog that the rescue wanted me to feed a Hill's prescription food. So I did. Her stones went away. As soon as she quit eating the food, the stones came back - in spades. Even the vet said the food was pretty horrible as far as nutrition. It's a patch, a quick fix. It's not a lifestyle change nor even particularly helpful to anyone except those whose pocketbooks get fatter.


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## Dr Dolittle

FBarnes said:


> Funny how it did nothing but make my sick dog sicker.... it sure made ME think.
> 
> Any vegetable is digestible to dogs when cooked and/or pureed. I don't think anyone would argue that corn in a dog food isn't digestible.
> 
> But it's not in there because it's so digestible. It's in there because it's cheap. And cellulose - honestly, I don't know how anyone defends sawdust in dog food. Some of their foods are up to 15% cellulose PLUS another 10% or so of peanut hulls - and guess what? Those foods are about 20% protein - just like raw meat.
> 
> What anyone who takes the time to look will find - but vets won't tell people - is that dogs have a zero daily requirement for carbs. As in, none. So why is it that so many people think carbs are not only good but necessary? Because it sells kibble.
> 
> I had a foster dog that the rescue wanted me to feed a Hill's prescription food. So I did. Her stones went away. As soon as she quit eating the food, the stones came back - in spades. Even the vet said the food was pretty horrible as far as nutrition. It's a patch, a quick fix. It's not a lifestyle change nor even particularly helpful to anyone except those whose pocketbooks get fatter.


FBarnes, perhaps you and I should refrain from corresponding and boring everyone on here with our arguing. if in your world veterinarians are just evil people out to hurt animals and become rich selling garbage foods, there isn't much I can say. In this thread, which RX diets were NOT the topic, you have said the same thing about 4 times now. I have answered yours and others claims, trying to explain why those ingredients are used to deliver specific nutrient control but obviously that doesn't register in a world of great sounding ingredients. I can swear on the lives of my children....you are clueless. Sorry if that is rude or arrogant, but you know nothing of veterinary nutrition and the sad thing is I can tell you can find all kinds of info on the web but for some reason choose to be blind about certain things. In my 26 years working with vets and seeing what these diets can do and rubbing elbows with those that researched the diseases and worked to create treatments that work, your statements are ....ill informed to say it politely. I have already mentioned 2 dogs I know of this month with calcium oxalates stones. Did you see that post? They were doing fine for years till the owners (separate cases) were told how great grain free was. One needed surgery again to remove the stones, the other was too old and was PUT DOWN! DEAD! And yes, it pisses me off! I know cats and dogs alive and thriving for up to 9 years with barely any kidneys left because of RX diets, you name the brand! Your vet who said the stone diet was a patch????Hmmm, some holistic vet I would imagine. So ask them, what it the long term approach for stones. They will come back. PERIOD! If you don't reduce the minerals the stones are made of and control the urine pH to inhibited any crystals from forming stones, that dog WILL need surgery again. But no, let's call cellulose sawdust because it makes you and your friends feel good. Sorry, I am being really rude but I told you this was my passion! Anfd I mentioned that cat that went 13 years on a food you would consider garbage and never had a health issue. Someone in a store assured her that food was garbage and recommended Natural Balance. Well, within a few months that cat plugged up with Struvite stones, which is rare for a mature cat, and needed an $800 surgery! I looked up the mineral level in that cat food and no wonder! But hey, the evil vet made even more money than selling food. Now the cat will need an RX diet the rest of its life most likely. FBarnes, Bett, and others reading this, I don't doubt your passion and sincerity but you really need to broaden your research if just a little bit!

We really will bore people to death and whoever runs this thing will throw us off! Well, throw me off, I suppose, since I'm the trouble maker. Remember, I started this thread saying raw folks need not read. Perhaps the web site should contain the word RAW in it so I would have not considered joining.


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## FBarnes

Dr Dolittle said:


> FBarnes, perhaps you and I should refrain from corresponding and boring everyone on here with our arguing. if in your world veterinarians are just evil people out to hurt animals and become rich selling garbage foods, there isn't much I can say. In this thread, which RX diets were NOT the topic, you have said the same thing about 4 times now. I have answered yours and others claims, trying to explain why those ingredients are used to deliver specific nutrient control but obviously that doesn't register in a world of great sounding ingredients. I can swear on the lives of my children....you are clueless. Sorry if that is rude or arrogant, but you know nothing of veterinary nutrition and the sad thing is I can tell you can find all kinds of info on the web but for some reason choose to be blind about certain things. In my 26 years working with vets and seeing what these diets can do and rubbing elbows with those that researched the diseases and worked to create treatments that work, your statements are ....ill informed to say it politely. I have already mentioned 2 dogs I know of this month with calcium oxalates stones. Did you see that post? They were doing fine for years till the owners (separate cases) were told how great grain free was. One needed surgery again to remove the stones, the other was too old and was PUT DOWN! DEAD! And yes, it pisses me off! I know cats and dogs alive and thriving for up to 9 years with barely any kidneys left because of RX diets, you name the brand! Your vet who said the stone diet was a patch????Hmmm, some holistic vet I would imagine. So ask them, what it the long term approach for stones. They will come back. PERIOD! If you don't reduce the minerals the stones are made of and control the urine pH to inhibited any crystals from forming stones, that dog WILL need surgery again. But no, let's call cellulose sawdust because it makes you and your friends feel good. Sorry, I am being really rude but I told you this was my passion! Anfd I mentioned that cat that went 13 years on a food you would consider garbage and never had a health issue. Someone in a store assured her that food was garbage and recommended Natural Balance. Well, within a few months that cat plugged up with Struvite stones, which is rare for a mature cat, and needed an $800 surgery! I looked up the mineral level in that cat food and no wonder! But hey, the evil vet made even more money than selling food. Now the cat will need an RX diet the rest of its life most likely. FBarnes, Bett, and others reading this, I don't doubt your passion and sincerity but you really need to broaden your research if just a little bit!
> 
> We really will bore people to death and whoever runs this thing will throw us off! Well, throw me off, I suppose, since I'm the trouble maker. Remember, I started this thread saying raw folks need not read. Perhaps the web site should contain the word RAW in it so I would have not considered joining.


When rational argument fails... start name calling. Typical.


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## flashyfawn

In defense of the RX diet, which I realize wasn't supposed to be the topic of this thread, I used to be one of those who said I would NEVER feed one. Well, I stand corrected. I have a dog who had pancreatitis and then had a month of diarrhea that nobody could find a definite reason for and we could not stop it. We were on the verge of euthanasia because she had constant liquid poo and was skin and bones, with the food going straight through. But then my (non-money grubbing, very caring) vet suggested the Hills w/d, because of the high fiber, just to see. And it worked. My dog is slowly gaining back her weight, her personality is back in full, her coat looks and feels fantastic, and her poop is totally normal. I have tried to switch her to a different food, or at least add in something that I think is "better" and it does not work. Adding in veggies or whatever to a regular food for fiber does not work. I briefly had her on w/d canned with a regular dry food and it sort of worked but then she started having some issues so now she's been back on just the w/d and she is So. Much. Better. The RX diet has given me my dog back. Do I like feeding it? Well, I'm not sure how to answer that anymore, because it seems like it's the only option. I truly do believe these diets have their place, although they are not pretty on paper. But not liking the ingredient list is *my* issue, and I cannot let that come before feeding my dog what works for her.


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## Shamrockmommy

I am finding value in what Dr Doolittle has to share. I'm particularly interested in finding out about minerals in the nutrient profiles. How much of what is too much and why? How much protein is correct for the average dog? What about fat? In my own dogs, I've experienced 12-18% being about right. Anymore and we get pancreatitis. 

I'm still just looking for a reasonable middle of the road food that performs well without containing everything but the kitchen sink at a decent price, really. 

I'm not a fan of iams and science diet and purina but I also believe there's more than one right way to feed a dog.


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## Roo

Dr Dolittle said:


> hey Celt, salmon meal and pea are the protein combination to pretty unique. Might be a it higher in Omeag 3's with the salmon. pea protein or pea protein concentrate is becoming common in foods lately, obviously must be a nice additional amino acid profile to enhance the meat source.The ratio of protein being moderate and the fat being a bit higher than normal makes me quests this is a good higher energy food with a little less protein. I like that since most foods are way too high in protein. Vit E at 250 is better than some but I'd rather see higher. The C is way too low. If you look at the L-Carnitine level, 15 mg is ridiculously low. For dogs it needs to be up around 300 mg, about 500 mg for cats. L-Carnitine is a vitamin/amino acid like nutrient that is approved by the FDA for people. It helps your body metabolize fat and maintain muscle. You will find therapeutic levels in RX diets treating liver disease and obesity among others.


These amounts only list the min amount, not the actual found in the food, the amounts could be higher than what's listed. I'm curious as to why you recommend higher amounts of Vitamin C, L-Carnitine, that a healthy dog's body is able to produce, when no supplementation is needed unless a health condition exists that requires it? Why is the "additional" amino acid profile necessary, what specifically does it offer a dog over the essential ones provided by foods and the unessential ones that their body's already make?

Shamrockmommy, just as a suggestion, you could always look up the nutrient profiles yourself if you're curious. Passion or not, personally I fail to see the value in someone's contribution to a discussion when they resort to being rude and arrogant to make their point, it's unnecessary.


----------



## bett

Dr Dolittle said:


> To the raw folks, I leave that debate to people a whole lot smarter than me. I generally side with the folks that question the risks over the benefits, but have never honestly investigated it since the vast majority feed dry or canned food. This is to the kibble masses out there, which I am one. I remember in 1988 when Purina introduced ProPlan with "chicken as the 1st Ingredient" and I knew the pet food industry would never be the same. "Honesty" went out the door and marketing and manipulation has been with us ever since. Why tell people the truth when you can sell them a great story? Pet food marketing is designed to distinguish your product from the others and appeal to the masses. You folks are hardly the typical pet owners and care much more about nutrition but judging from the posts, the marketing has worked very well anyway.Since its my job and my passion, I have to investigate and evaluate all the foods but you'd disagree with me anyway and I'm not here to recommend any foods.Having said that, I do feel bad how easily the marketing folks manipulte your thinking to sell their food. Just so you know, there are no rules to truthfulness in literature or websites. Companies can say whatever they want. Remember that! The bag though has many rules but companies know how to play the game now. Did you know there is a legal definiation for organic and natural and food companies work within thsoe rules but that the term "Holistic" as wonderful as it sounds has absolutely no meaning? Regardless of ingredients, processing , nutrients etc, any food can claim Holistic? We all can just believe what it means to us and give extra money to the food company. Do you know how an ingredient panel actually works, by law, rather than what might seem obvious? Do you really know what "real meat" is vs by-products? Do you know what ingredient splitting is and why they do it?
> 
> If you have any marketing questions that you wanted answered honestly by someone who knows, let me know. I am not talking about nutrition but the marketing. If there was ever anything you wondered about I'd be happy to give you my perspective......based on the facts, not yet another opinion! I won't pick on pa
> Particular foods since they all play the same game. Though to be fair, vet diets work with a whole different set of rules, the tricks of the trade are practiced by all food companies marketed to healthy pets....and I wish they didn't work so well! God Bless!


so, ok, i thought you were talking about the marketing , not the nutrition?
and again, what kibble do you feed?


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## Jan Fred

*Are they following the guidelines set by the authorities?*

I 'm fond of reading the labels of my dog's food. Is there anyone is this room can explain to me, how did they come up with a label? I mean how can we be sure that is true and not just a sort of promotions? Please help!


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## Georgiapeach

I think we all want what we think is best for our dogs. Every dog has different needs and issues, so thank goodness there's a variety of kibble out there! What works for one dog, may be akin to poison to another.


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## Dr Dolittle

Shamrockmommy said:


> I am finding value in what Dr Doolittle has to share. I'm particularly interested in finding out about minerals in the nutrient profiles. How much of what is too much and why? How much protein is correct for the average dog? What about fat? In my own dogs, I've experienced 12-18% being about right. Anymore and we get pancreatitis.
> 
> I'm still just looking for a reasonable middle of the road food that performs well without containing everything but the kitchen sink at a decent price, really.
> 
> I'm not a fan of iams and science diet and purina but I also believe there's more than one right way to feed a dog.


There have been ranges of these nutrients established by nutritionists and to be honest, that is all I look at, knowing the ingredient panel tells me very little. American pet owners always look at protein, probably because it has been marketed so well to us, but you're right! Why don't we spend more time considering the actual protein amount, the dietary fat level based on our dog's energy needs, the sodium, which matters more as they age, the phosphorus, which shows us the quality of the protein sources in the food. Folks have posted a few ingredient panels on this thread but notice how we are all really evaluating based on the ingredients and how they appeal to us. Of course that is by design. Strange how we know they are doing it to us but it works. Sometimes it seems like picking dog foods is like picking a car. cars all have 4 tires, an engine, seats, etc. Most of what we look at in cars is about the same. Now if you dig deeper you can check MPGs, safety standards, maybe a better stereo? In foods you could dig deeper to see actual quality of protein sources which could affect your dogs health later, excess sodium as well, perhaps actual antioxidants to reduce oxidative stress. Most dogs will do fine on most foods, and there are plenty of variations to that, but can we use nutrition to do more proactively to enhance our dogs health and reduce risk of disease. I believe we can. I will post some nutrient level ranges of food for you. As I think Roo said, you can call the companies and get their levels. I do it all the time. But you don't want the Guaranteed Analysis! You need to ask for the nutrient percentage on an as fed basis. Vet nutritionists insist on dry matter (without the moisture) because it is a bit more accurate, or mg per 100 kcal s, but most food companies are clueless to that level of nutrient control and won't have it. I will post some though to get you started. Remember though that the laws do not refer to imbalanced or excesses. A food simply can't be deficient, by law. A senior food can simply be the company's puppy food put in a Senior bag


----------



## Dr Dolittle

flashyfawn said:


> In defense of the RX diet, which I realize wasn't supposed to be the topic of this thread, I used to be one of those who said I would NEVER feed one. Well, I stand corrected. I have a dog who had pancreatitis and then had a month of diarrhea that nobody could find a definite reason for and we could not stop it. We were on the verge of euthanasia because she had constant liquid poo and was skin and bones, with the food going straight through. But then my (non-money grubbing, very caring) vet suggested the Hills w/d, because of the high fiber, just to see. And it worked. My dog is slowly gaining back her weight, her personality is back in full, her coat looks and feels fantastic, and her poop is totally normal. I have tried to switch her to a different food, or at least add in something that I think is "better" and it does not work. Adding in veggies or whatever to a regular food for fiber does not work. I briefly had her on w/d canned with a regular dry food and it sort of worked but then she started having some issues so now she's been back on just the w/d and she is So. Much. Better. The RX diet has given me my dog back. Do I like feeding it? Well, I'm not sure how to answer that anymore, because it seems like it's the only option. I truly do believe these diets have their place, although they are not pretty on paper. But not liking the ingredient list is *my* issue, and I cannot let that come before feeding my dog what works for her.


Flashyfawn, You said I have my dog back. I have heard that for over 25 years now and it's one of my favorite parts of what I do. And thanks for your honesty of doing what you see is best for your pup but acknowledging it goes against what you think you want to do. If someone who had a PHD in nutrition told you they could come up with a diet tat not only would help your dog's GI issues, but also be a great diet long term, with optimal levels of nutrients to help reduce the risk of kidney disease, heart disease, more common as dogs age, with an excellent clinically proven antioxidant package...and they asked you to trust them to use the ingredients that would deliver all that....would you do it? Well, you did! Many vets call w/d Wonder Diet because it has so many applications. Ironically, if you had never had a dog with issues you would never begin to wonder if maybe all the ingredient hype might not be as true as you believed, and all the hype about garbage foods might not be so accurate either. So happy your pup is doing well. God Bless!


----------



## Dr Dolittle

Roo said:


> These amounts only list the min amount, not the actual found in the food, the amounts could be higher than what's listed. I'm curious as to why you recommend higher amounts of Vitamin C, L-Carnitine, that a healthy dog's body is able to produce, when no supplementation is needed unless a health condition exists that requires it? Why is the "additional" amino acid profile necessary, what specifically does it offer a dog over the essential ones provided by foods and the unessential ones that their body's already make?
> 
> Shamrockmommy, just as a suggestion, you could always look up the nutrient profiles yourself if you're curious. Passion or not, personally I fail to see the value in someone's contribution to a discussion when they resort to being rude and arrogant to make their point, it's unnecessary.


Hey Roo, You are right. These are just minimums and the actuals are usually just a bit higher, but usually not much. A food company wants to guarantee as height a level since they are spending the money on that nutrient/ ingredient.

As far as L-Carnitine, yes, the body produces some and it is naturally found in meat, red meat especially, but not at very high levels. Studies at Cornell found that at high enough levels it actually helped the cell metabolize fat into energy and helped maintain lean muscle, even during weight loss. those levels were established as around 300 mg per 100 kcal s in dogs and about 500 in cats. What wasn't studied but discovered later was that L Carnitine is a great antioxidant of sorts! becasue it helps the mitochondria work more efficiently, there are less free radicals produced! very cool! Very few companies know of the research or have included it into their diets. I can't personally recommend those levels! I am just the messenger! If the so called experts are wrong, that's on them. Trust me, I am not the smartest guy in the room! I just know a lot of them!

As far as "additional" amino acid profile, I don't/ can't get into all the essentials and heat they do and how we might adjust the levels of some based on the health of the dog, but you will always find protein combinations in foods to provide those amino acids. Of course meat, but always something else. Soybean meal is one I have no problem with. Soybean by themselves are inferior to the meat by far but together with meat, compliment the total amino acid profile. In senior foods where reducing the workload on the kidneys to hopefully help reduce any renal issues later, I would want an even better protein source, meat sources that are very pure and low in harmful mineral excesses and I would want to see egg protein as well. Egg is an awesome protein source as far as amino acids, bioavailability, and easy on the kidneys. Most food company's don't have the guts anymore to add some corn gluten meal to their senior foods because it looks so bad, but it's a great protein source. ( not a carb) when the kidneys are compromised. RX companies will use it in their renal diets but remember, those diets are driven by nutrients, not ingredient marketing.

Vit C helps regenerate Vit E to reduce free radicals to harmless water. Beta Caratene, selenium, Vit C and Vit E work synergistically and their levels again have been established by measuring alkanol levels in the blood. Again, done by chemists and folks a whole lot smarter than me. I am just aware of the work...and understand it only to a certain degree!

Perhaps I did get rude with FBarnes but I think I only called him clueless. That's not name calling. I am pretty clueless about computers. that's just a fact. It is not rational to repeat numerous times that RX diets are garbage, cellulose is sawdust, etc. That is irrational. The fact he/she is clueless about such things is a rational statement, especially when he/she seems so capable of researching things. I suppose our own bias's are somewhat rational but when they blind us, we then hurt ourselves. I have decided to ignore FBarne's rants but have really enjoyed meeting many of the other folks on here. I thought it was a more diverse group of dog lovers to be honest, but we all have that same love for our pets so I think we can get along.


----------



## Dr Dolittle

Jan Fred said:


> I 'm fond of reading the labels of my dog's food. Is there anyone is this room can explain to me, how did they come up with a label? I mean how can we be sure that is true and not just a sort of promotions? Please help!


AAFCO, the Association of Animal Feed Control Officials is pet to the govt. They established ingredient descriptions, minimums and maximums as a guaranteed analysis, the level nutritional statement on the bag, etc.One could truly argue that back in the 70's maybe, that was good enough but we have learned lots since then, thankfully, and the worst, as I have been pointing out in this thread, what was supposed to help regulate the foods nutritionally is now being used to hype and sell way too expensive foods. the board of AAFCO is made up by representatives form the food companies! that's like the fox watching the hen house! And who are the big guys with the clout? The grocery pet food companies! They will make certain that there will be very few ways for a consumer to look at a bag and be able to identify a good product from a bag. That's why you see only min and max and really the same hype on any bag these days. the rules are real and were well intentioned. It's just that he marketing people figured out how to play them. Just remember when you read that label, you are reading a product of a marketing group, not a nutrition group. Does that help at all?


----------



## FBarnes

Dr Dolittle said:


> Hey Roo, You are right. These are just minimums and the actuals are usually just a bit higher, but usually not much. A food company wants to guarantee as height a level since they are spending the money on that nutrient/ ingredient.
> 
> As far as L-Carnitine, yes, the body produces some and it is naturally found in meat, red meat especially, but not at very high levels. Studies at Cornell found that at high enough levels it actually helped the cell metabolize fat into energy and helped maintain lean muscle, even during weight loss. those levels were established as around 300 mg per 100 kcal s in dogs and about 500 in cats. What wasn't studied but discovered later was that L Carnitine is a great antioxidant of sorts! becasue it helps the mitochondria work more efficiently, there are less free radicals produced! very cool! Very few companies know of the research or have included it into their diets. I can't personally recommend those levels! I am just the messenger! If the so called experts are wrong, that's on them. Trust me, I am not the smartest guy in the room! I just know a lot of them!
> 
> As far as "additional" amino acid profile, I don't/ can't get into all the essentials and heat they do and how we might adjust the levels of some based on the health of the dog, but you will always find protein combinations in foods to provide those amino acids. Of course meat, but always something else. Soybean meal is one I have no problem with. Soybean by themselves are inferior to the meat by far but together with meat, compliment the total amino acid profile. In senior foods where reducing the workload on the kidneys to hopefully help reduce any renal issues later, I would want an even better protein source, meat sources that are very pure and low in harmful mineral excesses and I would want to see egg protein as well. Egg is an awesome protein source as far as amino acids, bioavailability, and easy on the kidneys. Most food company's don't have the guts anymore to add some corn gluten meal to their senior foods because it looks so bad, but it's a great protein source. ( not a carb) when the kidneys are compromised. RX companies will use it in their renal diets but remember, those diets are driven by nutrients, not ingredient marketing.
> 
> Vit C helps regenerate Vit E to reduce free radicals to harmless water. Beta Caratene, selenium, Vit C and Vit E work synergistically and their levels again have been established by measuring alkanol levels in the blood. Again, done by chemists and folks a whole lot smarter than me. I am just aware of the work...and understand it only to a certain degree!
> 
> Perhaps I did get rude with FBarnes but I think I only called him clueless. That's not name calling. I am pretty clueless about computers. that's just a fact. It is not rational to repeat numerous times that RX diets are garbage, cellulose is sawdust, etc. That is irrational. The fact he/she is clueless about such things is a rational statement, especially when he/she seems so capable of researching things. I suppose our own bias's are somewhat rational but when they blind us, we then hurt ourselves. I have decided to ignore FBarne's rants but have really enjoyed meeting many of the other folks on here. I thought it was a more diverse group of dog lovers to be honest, but we all have that same love for our pets so I think we can get along.


No, you called me ignorant. Because you wish to spout your "knowledge" unopposed, and with people standing in awe of your vast well of information, you say I am clueless and ranting. I assure you I am neither. And I am glad to see you admit you are involved in the Rx food industry. Funny how everyone defending it always is, when the truth comes out.

And you so carefully avoid the question of why is it ok for vets to profit from Rx prescriptions, when human doctors can't. There's a reason why doctors can't do it, and a reason why you think it's ok for vets. It seems obvious to me.

Tell me - what IS the cellulose in Rx foods? It is a fairly generic term, meaning plant fiber. Since I read alot about dog food ingredients, what I read is that it is normally wood fiber, meaning sawdust. If it is, say, corn stem fibers, why doesn't it say so?


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## Shamrockmommy

I have a corn allergy, so I have to have any of my own meds made at a compounding pharmacy. They use "Cellulose powder" which is made from wood fibers. I think it's a fancy way to say really finely ground sawdust LOL. Pet food, couldn't that be anything from straw to chaff to corn stalks or?


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## FBarnes

Shamrockmommy said:


> I have a corn allergy, so I have to have any of my own meds made at a compounding pharmacy. They use "Cellulose powder" which is made from wood fibers. I think it's a fancy way to say really finely ground sawdust LOL. Pet food, couldn't that be anything from straw to chaff to corn stalks or?


That's my issue. They should say "wood fibers" or "corn fibers" or whatever fibers. I suspect it would normally be wood fiber i.e. sawdust but that would be telling people the absolute truth. They purposely say "cellulose" because most people don't know what that means.


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## Shamrockmommy

icken, Chicken Meal, Ground Brown Rice, Chicken Fat (preserved with Mixed Tocopherols and Ascorbyl Palmitate), Oatmeal, Salmon Meal, Dried Egg Product, Citrus Fiber, Lamb Meal, Flaxseed, Natural Flavor, Lecithin, Menhaden Fish Oil, Fat Product (natural source of omega-3 DHA from algae), Dried Kelp, Peas, Dried Apples, Dried Carrots, Dried Cranberries, Dried Blueberries, Chamomile, Dandelion, Peppermint, Rosemary, Turmeric, Bacillus coagulans GBI-30 6086, Chicory Root (a source of Inulin), Potassium Chloride, Salt, Choline Chloride, Yucca Schidigera Extract, L-Carnitine, Calcium Ascorbate (source of Vitamin C), Zinc Amino Acid Chelate, Iron Amino Acid Chelate, Biotin, Manganese Amino Acid Chelate, Cobalt Amino Acid Chelate, Calcium Carbonate, Vitamin E Supplement, Vitamin A Supplement, Calcium Pantothenate, Niacin, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride (B6), Thiamine Mononitrate (B1), Vitamin B12 Supplement, Vitamin D3 Supplement, Riboflavin Supplement, DL-Methionine, Copper Amino Acid Chelate, Folic Acid, Selenium Yeast, Calcium Iodate.
GUARANTEED ANALYSIS:
Crude Protein 32.00% (min); Crude Fat 20.00% (min); Crude Fiber 3.50% (max); Moisture 10.00% (max); Calcium (Ca) 1.30% (min); Phosphorus (P) 1.00% (min); Omega-6 Fatty Acids 3.60% (min)*; Omega-3 Fatty Acids 0.70% (min)*; DHA (Docosahexaenoic Acid) 0.10% (min)*; Ascorbic Acid (Vitamin C) 25 mg/lb (min)*.
*Not recognized as an essential nutrient by the AAFCO Dog Food Nutrient Profile.
Calorie Content (Calculated): 3561.63 Kcal ME/kg – 403.81 Kcal ME/cup.

Here's another one Ive tried recently for our new Mini Poodle puppy. He was on it for 3 weeks. I just put him on something else. It looks great, doesn't it? He was having green, goopy stool, terrible gas, and started to throw up in the last few days. Entire meals of kibble hours after eating it. Another one of these 'everything but the kitchen sink foods' with grains that did not do well for my guys. He's on Fromm grain free now and no gas, good stool and no throwing up for the last 3 meals. 
Ugh.


----------



## Roo

Dr Dolittle said:


> As far as L-Carnitine, yes, the body produces some and it is naturally found in meat, red meat especially, but not at very high levels. Studies at Cornell found that at high enough levels it actually helped the cell metabolize fat into energy and helped maintain lean muscle, even during weight loss. those levels were established as around 300 mg per 100 kcal s in dogs and about 500 in cats. What wasn't studied but discovered later was that L Carnitine is a great antioxidant of sorts! becasue it helps the mitochondria work more efficiently, there are less free radicals produced! very cool! Very few companies know of the research or have included it into their diets. I can't personally recommend those levels! I am just the messenger! If the so called experts are wrong, that's on them. Trust me, I am not the smartest guy in the room! I just know a lot of them!
> 
> As far as "additional" amino acid profile, I don't/ can't get into all the essentials and heat they do and how we might adjust the levels of some based on the health of the dog, but you will always find protein combinations in foods to provide those amino acids. Of course meat, but always something else. Soybean meal is one I have no problem with. Soybean by themselves are inferior to the meat by far but together with meat, compliment the total amino acid profile. In senior foods where reducing the workload on the kidneys to hopefully help reduce any renal issues later, I would want an even better protein source, meat sources that are very pure and low in harmful mineral excesses and I would want to see egg protein as well. Egg is an awesome protein source as far as amino acids, bioavailability, and easy on the kidneys. Most food company's don't have the guts anymore to add some corn gluten meal to their senior foods because it looks so bad, but it's a great protein source. ( not a carb) when the kidneys are compromised. RX companies will use it in their renal diets but remember, those diets are driven by nutrients, not ingredient marketing.
> 
> Vit C helps regenerate Vit E to reduce free radicals to harmless water. Beta Caratene, selenium, Vit C and Vit E work synergistically and their levels again have been established by measuring alkanol levels in the blood. Again, done by chemists and folks a whole lot smarter than me. I am just aware of the work...and understand it only to a certain degree!


I was asking what was the benefit of adding these vitamins/vitamin like/amino acids, (which dogs can make themselves), when no health condition exists, not what they do for the body in general, I'm aware of that. Red meats (beef, lamb etc.) actually have fairly high amounts of L-carnitine, but you don't have to include any red meat in a dogs diet. Deficiency is rare in healthy dogs because they can make it as long as they get lysine and methionine in their diets. Yes L-carnitine is helpful for weight loss, but you could just as easily feed fresh red meats in the diet and get the food sourced form of L-carnitine, and the conjugated linoleic acid for weight loss. 

With amino acids, meat provides all the essential, and a healthy dog can make the rest, so I'm not sure what the benefits are exactly to adding any non essential amino acids from plant sources.


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## bett

again, i thought , dr doolittle, from your first post, you werent talking about nutrition (which golly, you could have fooled me) but rather marketing.

and for the umpteenth time, what do you feed your dogs? (if you have any)


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## Georgiapeach

Here ya go, Dr. D.:

Pork Liver Pork Meal Pork Protein Tapioca Pork Fat (Naturally Preserved with Mixed Tocopherols) Peas Pork Gelatin Pork Kidney Whole Flaxseed Menhaden Fish Oil Natural Pork Flavor Sunflower Oil Salt L-Carnitine Dicalcium Phosphate Potassium Chloride Zinc Proteinate Choline Chloride Iron Proteinate Vitamin E Supplement L-Ascorbyl-2-Polyphosphate (Source of Vitamin C) Manganese Proteinate Biotin Copper Proteinate Niacin Calcium Pantothenate Sodium Selenite Vitamin A Supplement Riboflavin Supplement Vitamin D3 Supplement Thiamine Mononitrate Vitamin B12 Supplement Calcium Iodate Pyridoxine Hydrochloride Folic Acid.

I rotate this with 2 other kibbles. I feed it b/c it's one of 3 kibbles that my allergy dog, Maddie, tolerates very well.


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## dogg

Hill's Pet Nutrition Inc 11/23/11

The Healthy Mobility Diet bears the following claims on its label:
“Tested nutrition to enhance active mobility in just 30 days”
“Improves joint flexibility in just 30 days”
“Enhance active mobility in just 30 days
Vital fatty acids
Optimal levels of Omega-3 fatty acids to enhance overall mobility”

“Improve joint flexibility in just 30 days
Omega-3 fatty acids plus Glucosamine & Chondroitin Sulfate
Natural key building blocks of healthy cartilage and joint function”

The product’s label also bears the statement, “For more information about our precisely balanced nutrition and about other Hill’s® Science Diet® pet foods visit www.sciencediet.com.” This link takes a consumer who accesses it to a page on the hillspet.com website: Science Diet: Healthy Pet Food for Cats and Dogs | Hill's Pet Nutrition.

Lets talk about being transparent. Hills is scrambling because buyers are investigating thanks to the internet.

I was blind for years and thought I was doing the right thing, my boy had what was called allergies to fleas so shots every month$$$, diet by vet $$$$, never a mention of anything but shots for treatment$$$$$. 
This went on for 5 years at 7 he started having hot spots $$$, needs more shots and change diet to w/d $$$$.
We went on vacation and was informed about food ingredients, changed food and what do you think, no more misery for my boy, After 4 months of no issues I had a card in the mail from my "Concerned vet" I made an appointment and he was so happy to see that he was better and things were working, but he had no idea I had changed foods, I told that SOB off and never went back.
I put my boy down at 13 years because of a tumor, do you think that might of been from all the crap put in him for those years?
Needless to say now I look for the so called holistic vet, why not it can't be any worse.


----------



## danea

FBarnes said:


> A raw diet doesn't have very high protein.


But amounts of food are different. You can't compare foods with different moisture levels that way.
Here we have Royal Canine hepatic with 16% of protein and 4212kcal\kg, a 35kg dog needs 425-535g of food, it will deliver 68-85.6g of protein and 1790.1-2253.42kcal daily

Whole raw chicken has around 16% of protein and 180kcal\kg. even if you feed 35kg dog 86g of protein which equals 537.5g of raw chicken, you still have not enough food, calories and nutrition.
It is practically impossible to feed a dog with advanced liver failure 100% raw, home cooked with starches yes, raw probably not, if the dog can't tolerate high amounts of fat then definitely not.

And I'm talking about clinically proven liver failure, because sometimes high liver enzymes could be due poor nutrition or poison, change to a better diet, remove the poison and liver will regenerate.
Sadly sometimes it is not that simple.


----------



## Foodie

It looks like another poster with good information bites the dust. 

Why don't you rename the forum to Raw Food Chat that way everybody will be in agreement.


----------



## LilasMom

Foodie said:


> It looks like another poster with good information bites the dust.
> 
> Why don't you rename the forum to Raw Food Chat that way everybody will be in agreement.


Who is this directed at?


----------



## bett

LilasMom said:


> Who is this directed at?


and why?......


----------



## Dr Dolittle

Georgiapeach said:


> Here ya go, Dr. D.:
> 
> Pork Liver Pork Meal Pork Protein Tapioca Pork Fat (Naturally Preserved with Mixed Tocopherols) Peas Pork Gelatin Pork Kidney Whole Flaxseed Menhaden Fish Oil Natural Pork Flavor Sunflower Oil Salt L-Carnitine Dicalcium Phosphate Potassium Chloride Zinc Proteinate Choline Chloride Iron Proteinate Vitamin E Supplement L-Ascorbyl-2-Polyphosphate (Source of Vitamin C) Manganese Proteinate Biotin Copper Proteinate Niacin Calcium Pantothenate Sodium Selenite Vitamin A Supplement Riboflavin Supplement Vitamin D3 Supplement Thiamine Mononitrate Vitamin B12 Supplement Calcium Iodate Pyridoxine Hydrochloride Folic Acid.
> 
> I rotate this with 2 other kibbles. I feed it b/c it's one of 3 kibbles that my allergy dog, Maddie, tolerates very well.


Hey Georgiapeach! That is one very honest looking ingredient panel! Is that a vet diet? Most over the counter foods wouldn't be so honest and would want to pretty it up a bit. They easily could have listed 'fresh pork' as the first ingredient. When it comes to hypersensitive dogs, sometimes you have to give nutrition a back seat to what can I get this dog to eat that won't make her miserable! So if you find something, stick with it. It's just me, but I like the honest ingredient panel and would go further to see how the protein, phosphorus, sodium levels look like, especially as my guys age. God Bless!


----------



## Dr Dolittle

dogg said:


> Hill's Pet Nutrition Inc 11/23/11
> 
> The Healthy Mobility Diet bears the following claims on its label:
> “Tested nutrition to enhance active mobility in just 30 days”
> “Improves joint flexibility in just 30 days”
> “Enhance active mobility in just 30 days
> Vital fatty acids
> Optimal levels of Omega-3 fatty acids to enhance overall mobility”
> 
> “Improve joint flexibility in just 30 days
> Omega-3 fatty acids plus Glucosamine & Chondroitin Sulfate
> Natural key building blocks of healthy cartilage and joint function”
> 
> The product’s label also bears the statement, “For more information about our precisely balanced nutrition and about other Hill’s® Science Diet® pet foods visit www.sciencediet.com.” This link takes a consumer who accesses it to a page on the hillspet.com website: Science Diet: Healthy Pet Food for Cats and Dogs | Hill's Pet Nutrition.
> 
> Lets talk about being transparent. Hills is scrambling because buyers are investigating thanks to the internet.
> 
> I was blind for years and thought I was doing the right thing, my boy had what was called allergies to fleas so shots every month$$$, diet by vet $$$$, never a mention of anything but shots for treatment$$$$$.
> This went on for 5 years at 7 he started having hot spots $$$, needs more shots and change diet to w/d $$$$.
> We went on vacation and was informed about food ingredients, changed food and what do you think, no more misery for my boy, After 4 months of no issues I had a card in the mail from my "Concerned vet" I made an appointment and he was so happy to see that he was better and things were working, but he had no idea I had changed foods, I told that SOB off and never went back.
> I put my boy down at 13 years because of a tumor, do you think that might of been from all the crap put in him for those years?
> Needless to say now I look for the so called holistic vet, why not it can't be any worse.


Hey Dogg, Not sure what you meant about the Hills website and transparency. I didn't go to it. As far as that Healthy Mobility diet, it is not a therapeutic diet so it won't do anything for an arthritic dog. If I were interested in it, I would simply check the levels of Omega 3's in it since that would be the only true benefit for the dog. If it's 2 or 3 times higher, there ya go! But I would add that this is really just preventative, not therapeutic.

It is kind of a trend that those of you that are so upset over vet diets and your own vets, was due to dogs with allergies. I don't want to second guess these vets but why would your dog be on w/d if she had allergies. Others have mentioned the same thing with w/d and I/d. Thise are diabetic and GI diets but won't help a dog with allergies. Maybe these vets weren't up to speed on nutrition and how to use these diets. LOL! I'm sure I'll get agreement to that statement! LOL!


----------



## Dr Dolittle

danea said:


> But amounts of food are different. You can't compare foods with different moisture levels that way.
> Here we have Royal Canine hepatic with 16% of protein and 4212kcal\kg, a 35kg dog needs 425-535g of food, it will deliver 68-85.6g of protein and 1790.1-2253.42kcal daily
> 
> Whole raw chicken has around 16% of protein and 180kcal\kg. even if you feed 35kg dog 86g of protein which equals 537.5g of raw chicken, you still have not enough food, calories and nutrition.
> It is practically impossible to feed a dog with advanced liver failure 100% raw, home cooked with starches yes, raw probably not, if the dog can't tolerate high amounts of fat then definitely not.
> 
> And I'm talking about clinically proven liver failure, because sometimes high liver enzymes could be due poor nutrition or poison, change to a better diet, remove the poison and liver will regenerate.
> Sadly sometimes it is not that simple.


Wow! Danea! Thanks for that, but you are on the wrong durum! LOL! Just kidding!


----------



## Dr Dolittle

Getting back to the Nutritional Statement, we have already discussed formulated vs feeding trials. We each can decide the value of feeding trails vs a computer generated formula. The other part of the statement is whether it is complete and balanced for All stages vs Adult Maintenance. Though complete and balanced sounds really good all it really means is that all the 55 or so nutrients are above the minimal level set by AAFCO. As long as you are above those minimums, you can sell the food. RememberAAFCO is not concerned with imbalances and/or excesses. And thats the problem. Since the govt is protecting us from any deficinecies, when you see a food for ALL life stages, that food has to meet the requirements for ALL life stages, including the most demanding, which is puppyhood. SO nutritionally, any food with that statement is a puppy food. That is a fact, not my opinion. The nutrient levels, by law, are high enough to meet the needs of a growing puppy, at least according to AAFCO. Some of you have already said you like ALL Life Stage foods so obviously there will be a difference in opinion on these diets. 

SO what is a Senior or Mature diet then? Do seniors really have a different nutrient requirement than puppies? Just feed less food to the older dog and they will get less fat, protein, etc? Well, not exactly! What do you want a senior food to be or to DO? For me, I am concerned with them gaining weight now they they might be slowing down. I also want maybe an easier diet to digest, maybe a little more fiber to help with GI health (prebiotics) and nutrient lkevels that help reduce the risk of age related diseases like kidney and heart disease. How about you? What are you looking for?

There was a study published in the March edition of International Journal of Applied Research in Veterinary Medicine, asking pet owners what they thought a senior food should look like for their dogs. Tufts University polled 1,300 pet owners. The dog owners said they felt lower fat, protein, and sodium would be more controlled. Well, that's actually pretty good. I'd include phosphorus in there.Tufts evaluated over 40 brands of Senior Foods and found that fat levels varied from 2.4 to 6.3 grams per 100 kcals! Protein levels ranged from 4.8 grams to 13.1 grams! (4.8 grams would be around 18% on the bag) that high number is higher than most puppy foods! And sodium levels of 33 mg/100 kcals to as high as 412 mg!!!! 

We spend so much time looking at ingredient panels, even those of you that agree its just a game to promote food, but we never look at the nutrients provided! This should be criminal that food companies can market Senior foods and not make them senior at all! We know the link of phoshorus/protein to kidney disease! And remember those lowest levels you see there are still high enough. They are not deficient! Yet now, the most expensive dog foods out there are the highest protein and phosphorus and sodium levels ever made! And I guarantee you there is not one study out there indicating any benefit but lots of dangers feeding those levels.

One could argue that if annual blood work shows the dog is doing great....then great! But keep up that bloodwork. If they start not concentrating urine or BUN levels going up, you need a REAL senior food! My philosphy is if the dog doesn't need those high levels, why give them to him? Especailly since some of these diseases don't show up with clinical signs till its almost too late. 

By the way, a food that states For Maintenance can also be quite excessive in nutrients. They don't have to list as All Stages. But when they do, you know they are a puppy formula. Hope that isn't confusing.


----------



## Georgiapeach

Dr Dolittle said:


> Hey Georgiapeach! That is one very honest looking ingredient panel! Is that a vet diet? Most over the counter foods wouldn't be so honest and would want to pretty it up a bit. They easily could have listed 'fresh pork' as the first ingredient. When it comes to hypersensitive dogs, sometimes you have to give nutrition a back seat to what can I get this dog to eat that won't make her miserable! So if you find something, stick with it. It's just me, but I like the honest ingredient panel and would go further to see how the protein, phosphorus, sodium levels look like, especially as my guys age. God Bless!


This is Back to Basics Grain Free High Protein Pork, a commercial diet. They also have an Open Range formula, which is similar, but it has beef and pork in it. Their turkey and duck formulas have chicken meal/chicken fat and eggs in them, so they're a no-go for my dog. It's hard to find in my area - most people haven't heard of it before. Fortunately, I found it at a pet store 45 minutes from my house. My allergy dog does very well on it, thank goodness! I rotate this with a couple of other severely limited ingredient kibbles I've found.

Healthy Dry Food Products - High Protein Dog Food - Back to Basics


----------



## FarminaND

The quandary ethical pet food companies face is satisfying consumer demand while making products that are safe, wholesome and nutritious. The difference between European consumers and American consumers is that the latter places very little importance on the expertise of the manufacturer, the production methods and production quality and the actual testing of the products. Americans are more inclined to buy foods from companies with virtually no experience in making and formulating foods if they like how the label reads. The ability of companies that don't make their own food, don't have a full staff of experts in-house and don't run actual safety tests themselves is unheard of outside the United States. While our diets will not be labeled as AAFCO tested, they are in fact safety tested to much more stringent standards. We have labeled them as AAFCO formulated because the methods are not compatible.

Every company is faced with the decision of whether to market foods or actually develop foods. There is a huge difference. What is also different is that shops in Europe do not carry the same variety of foods. Shopkeepers tend to carry fewer things that they are comfortable in recommending rather than what sells easily. This is changing a bit but its not the like the United States.

When the decision was made to market the N&D line in Europe it was not done until 2 years worth of safety data was accumulated and published through a well known veterinary hospital. Because the family name is on the bag, it would have been reckless to sell these products without adequate testing. We are surprised at the wide-spread use of some ingredients here and more importantly how high the mineral content is in certain foods. The protein sources we use are so high in quality that we can formulate a 42% protein food with the same or lower mineral content of some American 25% protein foods.

We are very familiar with therapeutic diets, as we make the only naturally preserved and non-gmo diets in the world. These for some pets must be used either for a limited time or for life. Our Vet Life line was a huge undertaking because we chose to test only in the pet's home environment, like all our foods. We never test on animals confined to kennels in a laboratory environment. 

So in the end, consumers need to balance a few things and ask more questions about the actual companies and be a bit less worried about ingredients at the expense of nutrients and common sense. Some foods listed in this thread use ingredients that have very misleading or inaccurate names in our opinion and consumers should be aware that they are not as wholesome as they sound.


----------



## Dr Dolittle

FarminaND said:


> The quandary ethical pet food companies face is satisfying consumer demand while making products that are safe, wholesome and nutritious. The difference between European consumers and American consumers is that the latter places very little importance on the expertise of the manufacturer, the production methods and production quality and the actual testing of the products. Americans are more inclined to buy foods from companies with virtually no experience in making and formulating foods if they like how the label reads. The ability of companies that don't make their own food, don't have a full staff of experts in-house and don't run actual safety tests themselves is unheard of outside the United States. While our diets will not be labeled as AAFCO tested, they are in fact safety tested to much more stringent standards. We have labeled them as AAFCO formulated because the methods are not compatible.
> 
> Every company is faced with the decision of whether to market foods or actually develop foods. There is a huge difference. What is also different is that shops in Europe do not carry the same variety of foods. Shopkeepers tend to carry fewer things that they are comfortable in recommending rather than what sells easily. This is changing a bit but its not the like the United States.
> 
> When the decision was made to market the N&D line in Europe it was not done until 2 years worth of safety data was accumulated and published through a well known veterinary hospital. Because the family name is on the bag, it would have been reckless to sell these products without adequate testing. We are surprised at the wide-spread use of some ingredients here and more importantly how high the mineral content is in certain foods. The protein sources we use are so high in quality that we can formulate a 42% protein food with the same or lower mineral content of some American 25% protein foods.
> 
> We are very familiar with therapeutic diets, as we make the only naturally preserved and non-gmo diets in the world. These for some pets must be used either for a limited time or for life. Our Vet Life line was a huge undertaking because we chose to test only in the pet's home environment, like all our foods. We never test on animals confined to kennels in a laboratory environment.
> 
> So in the end, consumers need to balance a few things and ask more questions about the actual companies and be a bit less worried about ingredients at the expense of nutrients and common sense. Some foods listed in this thread use ingredients that have very misleading or inaccurate names in our opinion and consumers should be aware that they are not as wholesome as they sound.


Wow! You explained so well in a few paragraphs what I have been trying to say thru this whole thread! No one has ever mentioned phosphorus and the quality of protein sources like I do! 48% protein? And non GMO corn? I will definitely check it out but am looking forward to hearing more from you!


----------



## 1605

Dr Dolittle said:


> Wow! You explained so well in a few paragraphs what I have been trying to say thru this whole thread! No one has ever mentioned phosphorus and the quality of protein sources like I do! 48% protein? And non GMO corn? I will definitely check it out but am looking forward to hearing more from you!


I must be missing something. The highest protein listed was 42%: for large & small breed puppies. All the rest were 37%.


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## FarminaND

SubMariner said:


> I must be missing something. The highest protein listed was 42%: for large & small breed puppies. All the rest were 37%.


The 42% protein, 22% fat food we make is recommended for small-medium breed puppies but is an All Life Stage food that may be used by any dog of any breed or size if the nutritional requirements warrant it. The calcium level is 1.50%, Phosphorous is 1.0% and total ash is a modest 8.60%. 96% of total protein is from animal sources and all the fat is too.

Again, while this diet may be safely used in all applications, the high fat content makes it most suitable for small-medium breed puppies and adults that burn a lot of calories and have high muscle repair needs. The Ancestral Grain line offers a 35% protein, 20% fat food that would be ideal for hunting and agility dogs. 35% protein is perfect for adult dogs in those activities. That food has maximum ash of 7.30% and phosphorus below 1%. 93% animal protein sourced.

The foods that will be offered in the USA have no corn. The foods in Europe have no GMO ingredients at all. The USA foods use potato in the grain-free line and spelt and oats @ 20% total in the Ancestral Grain line. We really like the combination of Italian grown spelt and oats, both non-gmo of course.

http://usa.farmina.com/?q=content/line/nd-grain-free-canine
http://usa.farmina.com/?q=content/line/nd-low-grain-canine


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## FBarnes

danea said:


> But amounts of food are different. You can't compare foods with different moisture levels that way.
> Here we have Royal Canine hepatic with 16% of protein and 4212kcal\kg, a 35kg dog needs 425-535g of food, it will deliver 68-85.6g of protein and 1790.1-2253.42kcal daily
> 
> Whole raw chicken has around 16% of protein and 180kcal\kg. even if you feed 35kg dog 86g of protein which equals 537.5g of raw chicken, you still have not enough food, calories and nutrition.
> It is practically impossible to feed a dog with advanced liver failure 100% raw, home cooked with starches yes, raw probably not, if the dog can't tolerate high amounts of fat then definitely not.
> 
> And I'm talking about clinically proven liver failure, because sometimes high liver enzymes could be due poor nutrition or poison, change to a better diet, remove the poison and liver will regenerate.
> Sadly sometimes it is not that simple.


Kibble companies compare foods with different moisture levels, often. They will have "chicken" at the top of the ingredient list. Just another way to fool people. 

Where do you get info that chicken is 16% protein? The USDA database has it at 18.6% Beef ranging from 17-20%. Every raw protein that I have looked at is normally between 18-20% or thereabouts.

i know some dogs with stones are fed a more BARF-like diet because they need low purines and true raw just isn't conducive to that. I continue to address the original post, which was about MARKETING of dog food, not raw vs. kibble. About the misleading way in which ingredients panels are manipulated to fool people. About how Rx foods make a profit for vets so they have an inherent conflict of interest in prescribing ANY Rx food (or drug, for that matter). About how I think it's condescending to tell people to look not at ingredients, but about the years of science behind the ingredients. Ingredients are important. Once you get past all the deception, tricks, and understand the fact that you can never know the QUALITY of the ingredients because the laws are made for deception, then you can look at performance.


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## NewfieAussie

FBarnes, How old are you? Have you not been through eight grade biology when you learn about cellulose? This is the kibble/canned forum and you tend to ruin our threads. The OP stated this was for kibble feeders.


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## meggels

Just a reminder to keep this on topic of kibble/canned and that industry. It sounds like Dr. Doolittle and Farmina have a lot of valuable and insightful information to share, so let's please not turn this into raw vs. kibble, or warnings/infractions will begin to be given out.


----------



## FBarnes

NewfieAussie said:


> FBarnes, How old are you? Have you not been through eight grade biology when you learn about cellulose? This is the kibble/canned forum and you tend to ruin our threads. The OP stated this was for kibble feeders.


I learned about cellulose, but it seems like alot of other people didn't. I CONTINUE to talk about the marketing, which was the first post on this thread. If I ruined the thread, too bad for you I guess. Don't start a topic and then tell people they can't talk about it. What I feed my dogs is totally irrelevant.


----------



## apriliamille

Jan Fred said:


> I 'm fond of reading the labels of my dog's food. Is there anyone is this room can explain to me, how did they come up with a label? I mean how can we be sure that is true and not just a sort of promotions? Please help!


jan fred. not sure if it will help your question but i was researching redmoon for my dogs. i had called up and talked with them about why they had stopped making custom food earlier this year and went to narrow selective range of dog foods. they had explained to me that some government regulation came out about nutritional labels and descriptions making it rather difficult to produce the custom food with the proper legal labeling. thus they went to what they have now and have the legal labeling created. (paraphrased from 3 months ago as i cant remember the exact words in the discussion) hearing this from them makes me believe there is some truth to the labeling. now how the individual companies manipulate the label is another story


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## bett

thought this was interesting:
How to Spot TRULY Natural, Organic Commercial Pet Foods


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## danea

FBarnes
Our chicken (meat, bones, and skin) is usually 16, chicken breast 18-20. But 2-4% won't make a big difference in my calculation, actually if the chicken has higher protein level you would need to feed even less meat which in turn would lead to even more nutrition deficiency.

I'm not disputing what you are saying. With my post I just wanted to say that comparing 2 products with the same protein % but different moisture level is not exactly right. Yes, some companies do that (although I have not seen it myself), but it is wrong approach


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## Dr Dolittle

apriliamille said:


> jan fred. not sure if it will help your question but i was researching redmoon for my dogs. i had called up and talked with them about why they had stopped making custom food earlier this year and went to narrow selective range of dog foods. they had explained to me that some government regulation came out about nutritional labels and descriptions making it rather difficult to produce the custom food with the proper legal labeling. thus they went to what they have now and have the legal labeling created. (paraphrased from 3 months ago as i cant remember the exact words in the discussion) hearing this from them makes me believe there is some truth to the labeling. now how the individual companies manipulate the label is another story


Absolutely right! there are strict rules concerning what gores on the bag. that hasn't changed. What has changed is how those rules are manipulated now. And now, because of the success, All companies do it. Healthy and unhealthy alike.


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## Dr Dolittle

danea said:


> FBarnes
> Our chicken (meat, bones, and skin) is usually 16, chicken breast 18-20. But 2-4% won't make a big difference in my calculation, actually if the chicken has higher protein level you would need to feed even less meat which in turn would lead to even more nutrition deficiency.
> 
> I'm not disputing what you are saying. With my post I just wanted to say that comparing 2 products with the same protein % but different moisture level is not exactly right. Yes, some companies do that (although I have not seen it myself), but it is wrong approach


Perhaps for those who may not know, food companies will use three ways of measuring nutrients, or at least disclosing them. As Fed % is the most common way, which includes the moisture content. Since moisture levels vary, it is not the most accurate but close. most food companies don't even know any other way. Dry Matter Basis is a bit more accurate because it removes the moisture from the food. The most accurate measurement is ml or grams per 100 kcal s. In other words, for every calorie of energy, how much of each nutrient is delivered. Vet nutritionists use that measurement since it is the most accurate but most food companies can't offer you those numbers. THOUGH THEY SHOULD BE ABLE TO! If you call a company to compare, you have to make sure you use the same method of measurement.


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## Dr Dolittle

So I think we all agree that the ingredient game is very misleading but yet, don't we still go there and are still motivated to try a food based on it? LOL! Someone just mentioned yesterday that you can't tell the true quality of the food's protein source. SURE YOU CAN! The phosphorus level reveals the quality of the protein. Calcium too! Food companies don't want you looking at their phosphorus level because it reveals all the bone, hair, hoof, feathers, chicken lips, etc, all the junk you find in cheaper sources. And don't be fooled, Fresh chicken, chicken meal, chicken by product meal, etc may look good or bad but the phosphorus level tells the truth. And knowing how detrimental excess calcium and phosphorus can be to dogs as they age, I wish people knew to look! I will list a few actual levels but don 't have the time right now.

My point is we can KNOW the quality of the meat sources by checking the mineral levels. It really is that easy!


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## bett

"My point is we can KNOW the quality of the meat sources by checking the mineral levels. It really is that easy!""

and if, there are no meat sources?
Ingredients: Water, rice, egg product, chicken fat (preserved with mixed tocopherols and citric acid), soybean meal, soybean oil, corn starch, chicken liver flavor, corn gluten meal, powdered cellulose, fish oil, dicalcium phosphate, potassium chloride, calcium carbonate, dried beet pulp, l-lysine, l-arginine, iodized salt, choline chloride, vitamin E supplement, taurine, zinc oxide, l-carnitine, ascorbic acid (source of vitamin C), l-tryptophan, niacin, thiamine mononitrate, vitamin A supplement, beta-carotene, calcium pantothenate, manganous oxide, biotin, vitamin B12 supplement, pyridoxine hydrochloride, riboflavin, folic acid, calcium iodate, vitamin D3 supplement, sodium selenite, menadione dimethylpyrimidinol bisulfite (source of vitamin K)
Fiber (estimated dry matter content) = 3.3%

that's hill's ld canned food.


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## Dr Dolittle

bett said:


> "My point is we can KNOW the quality of the meat sources by checking the mineral levels. It really is that easy!""
> 
> and if, there are no meat sources?
> Ingredients: Water, rice, egg product, chicken fat (preserved with mixed tocopherols and citric acid), soybean meal, soybean oil, corn starch, chicken liver flavor, corn gluten meal, powdered cellulose, fish oil, dicalcium phosphate, potassium chloride, calcium carbonate, dried beet pulp, l-lysine, l-arginine, iodized salt, choline chloride, vitamin E supplement, taurine, zinc oxide, l-carnitine, ascorbic acid (source of vitamin C), l-tryptophan, niacin, thiamine mononitrate, vitamin A supplement, beta-carotene, calcium pantothenate, manganous oxide, biotin, vitamin B12 supplement, pyridoxine hydrochloride, riboflavin, folic acid, calcium iodate, vitamin D3 supplement, sodium selenite, menadione dimethylpyrimidinol bisulfite (source of vitamin K)
> Fiber (estimated dry matter content) = 3.3%
> 
> that's hill's ld canned food.


Not a typical diet since it is to treat chronic liver disease but still applies. Whenever you see a diet designed to reduce nitrogen and reduce the workload of kidneys or the liver, you will find alternative protein sources. Looks like amino acids are provided by rice, egg (probably primary) and soybean ( which is a much better protein source than people realize) I would guess the total phosphorus level is about half of what you would find in a typical food. I'll try and find out but anyone can. Probably quicker than me. But for healthy pets we don't want to reduce the phosphorus that low so most high quality meat sources are fine. But your example does point out the different levels of phosphorus in various diets for different reasons. I would say the higher the protein level, mostly meat, and a lower phosphorus level, indicates the quality (purity) of those sources, no matter the attractive appealing name.


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## bett

What's egg product?

Honestly, this food will never enter my dog's body ever again.
I home cook a liver support diet, supplement appropriately and use chinese herbs.

Not very difficult if you research and read.

The only time rex ate the other dog's poop, is when he ate this stuff.
His levels took a while( from june to nov) to continually go down and be perfectly normal.


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## Sapphire-Light

What is the safe % level of Phosphorus in a food?


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## Shamrockmommy

Yes, what percentage phosphorus (and other minerals) should be a general indication of quality?


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## Dr Dolittle

bett said:


> What's egg product?
> 
> Honestly, this food will never enter my dog's body ever again.
> I home cook a liver support diet, supplement appropriately and use chinese herbs.
> 
> Not very difficult if you research and read.
> 
> The only time rex ate the other dog's poop, is when he ate this stuff.
> His levels took a while( from june to nov) to continually go down and be perfectly normal.


Yes Bett, we all know how you feel about Hills L/d. I think you need to know you are an exceptional dog owner and are going the extra mile and your dog is blessed for that, but the vast majority of dog owners won't do what you do. Many won't even change the diet at all. Hills L/d has literally saved the lives of puppies and adult dogs with various liver issues. I think I remember your pup got poisoned by something. Thankfully he is fine but chronic liver disease is very different and much more complicated. Your guy did terrible on it. I am certain every food out there has examples of that! Blue Buffalo is one of the most successful brands in the US but causes tons of dogs to get sick! Isn't stopping them! You will never like the ingredients in RX diets. Let's just agree on that. 

Egg product? I have no idea! I am sure you could research it. I know egg is a great protein source, easy to digest, much easier on the liver and kidneys than meat. AAFCO comes up with the ingredient names and definitions, which are usually pretty vague and may not really help. It comes down to trusting the company who you trust your pets health to, probably why you take that responsibility yourself. Again, I think that's awesome. I deal in the world of the pet owner that is going to pour a cup of food in a bowl and that's it. vets have to work with that reality 99% of the time.


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## FarminaND

"Egg Product", "Dehydrated Egg Product" & "Liquid Egg Product" are the proper ways to label eggs on dog food labels. Proper insofar as the rules are concerned. If you use the word "whole" you are held to the USDA definition of "whole" which may or not be the same in other places.

We use the word "whole" outside the US because "whole" means the entire egg, but in USA "whole" is used to grade eggs for human consumption. 

While ours are, there is no way to determine with 100% certainty if an egg with a broken shell was used to make the product we use. You will find many foods in the USA label in accordance with the law but some take the chance of spending lots of time defending the labeling.

When you use the word "product" it generally means on occasion eggs with broken shells or stained shells are used, but human grade eggs can also be labeled "product" as well. "Product" is just broader.


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## bett

Dr Dolittle said:


> Yes Bett, we all know how you feel about Hills L/d. I think you need to know you are an exceptional dog owner and are going the extra mile and your dog is blessed for that, but the vast majority of dog owners won't do what you do. Many won't even change the diet at all. Hills L/d has literally saved the lives of puppies and adult dogs with various liver issues. I think I remember your pup got poisoned by something. Thankfully he is fine but chronic liver disease is very different and much more complicated. Your guy did terrible on it. I am certain every food out there has examples of that! Blue Buffalo is one of the most successful brands in the US but causes tons of dogs to get sick! Isn't stopping them! You will never like the ingredients in RX diets. Let's just agree on that.
> 
> Egg product? I have no idea! I am sure you could research it. I know egg is a great protein source, easy to digest, much easier on the liver and kidneys than meat. AAFCO comes up with the ingredient names and definitions, which are usually pretty vague and may not really help. It comes down to trusting the company who you trust your pets health to, probably why you take that responsibility yourself. Again, I think that's awesome. I deal in the world of the pet owner that is going to pour a cup of food in a bowl and that's it. vets have to work with that reality 99% of the time.


without minimizing what i do, i think most folks on here, are not too different.
rex 's liver issue did start with the toxic food, but it is a constant concern for me, which is i guess, why i test so often, and use a liver support diet, home cooked.and the vet does consider he has a chronic liver issue, just not in liver failure. (as the internist believed after his ultrasound, blood, and god knows what else.)
i do use eggs often in rex's dinner. organic, if that makes a difference i've become a tad bit paranoid about what he eats.fish, chicken, low fat cottage cheese. some organic veggies and carbs. 40% protein, 40% veg, 20% carb (i used organic steamed sweet potatoes which can be veg or carb). one day a week i need to spend a couple of hours, and then i have enough for probably 8 days (6 lbs of protein, 6 lbs of veggies, cooked, and 2 lbs of the sweet potatoes.)

right now , i'm hoping he's not developing golpp (formerly known as LP ) as i hear some gagging when he lays down (not when eating tho). his hind end was wasted when we adopted/rescued/saved him as he was tied up 24x7 and a very poorly bred lab. beautiful head . like from a catalogue ,and the rest-BAD. body too long, sway back, straight hocks , luxating patellas, and you can see the muscle just wasted away on his rear legs. almost as if he had polio.


he's now 11.7 and i actually never had a lab that managed to live to that age. (i hate cancer, did you know that?)
but i see him getting tired. tho he did want to run after the frisbee last week, and follows me up and down the steps, from room to room.

and you know what-my other two labs are kibble fed , tho i did try home cooking for vangie (high eosinophil count and barfs often) but without a bit of pred (.5. every 5 days at this point) i couldnt succeed. and while they are on kibble, and different kibble at that, i still am kibble phobic since my experience last year. thus, fromm, with no recalls ever (please god).


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## FBarnes

FarminaND said:


> "Egg Product", "Dehydrated Egg Product" & "Liquid Egg Product" are the proper ways to label eggs on dog food labels. Proper insofar as the rules are concerned. If you use the word "whole" you are held to the USDA definition of "whole" which may or not be the same in other places.
> 
> We use the word "whole" outside the US because "whole" means the entire egg, but in USA "whole" is used to grade eggs for human consumption.
> 
> While ours are, there is no way to determine with 100% certainty if an egg with a broken shell was used to make the product we use. You will find many foods in the USA label in accordance with the law but some take the chance of spending lots of time defending the labeling.
> 
> When you use the word "product" it generally means on occasion eggs with broken shells or stained shells are used, but human grade eggs can also be labeled "product" as well. "Product" is just broader.


Personally, I would be more interested in where the eggs came from, not whether they had cracked shells.


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## FarminaND

FBarnes said:


> Personally, I would be more interested in where the eggs came from, not whether they had cracked shells.


Egg production is a single vertical industry. The only eggs that are produced are from facilities, in our case France, that are producing eggs for people. Grading eggs is largely based on cosmetics as I mentioned.


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## FBarnes

FarminaND said:


> Egg production is a single vertical industry. The only eggs that are produced are from facilities, in our case France, that are producing eggs for people. Grading eggs is largely based on cosmetics as I mentioned.


Not sure about France, but here in the US that means chickens raised in abominable, cruel conditions and fed an unnatural diet.


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## bett

FarminaND said:


> "Egg Product", "Dehydrated Egg Product" & "Liquid Egg Product" are the proper ways to label eggs on dog food labels. Proper insofar as the rules are concerned. If you use the word "whole" you are held to the USDA definition of "whole" which may or not be the same in other places.
> 
> We use the word "whole" outside the US because "whole" means the entire egg, but in USA "whole" is used to grade eggs for human consumption.
> 
> While ours are, there is no way to determine with 100% certainty if an egg with a broken shell was used to make the product we use. You will find many foods in the USA label in accordance with the law but some take the chance of spending lots of time defending the labeling.
> 
> When you use the word "product" it generally means on occasion eggs with broken shells or stained shells are used, but human grade eggs can also be labeled "product" as well. "Product" is just broader.


i've never seen "egg product" on any of the kibble i use. it may say dehydrated egg, but never "egg product".

as a matter of fact, i just checked and it says "whole egg".


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## bett

i actually do care, if the shells are cracked as when i get eggs, if a shell is cracked, i toss it. i dont feed it to me, my family or my dogs.
who knows how long the shell is cracked and what the heck got in there, in terms of bacteria.

and chickens in the US, unless kept cage free and fed properly, are probably the dirtiest of all creatures. 
i'll take organic eggs, for the extra money any day.


----------



## FBarnes

bett said:


> i actually do care, if the shells are cracked as when i get eggs, if a shell is cracked, i toss it. i dont feed it to me, my family or my dogs.
> who knows how long the shell is cracked and what the heck got in there, in terms of bacteria.
> 
> and chickens in the US, unless kept cage free and fed properly, are probably the dirtiest of all creatures.
> i'll take organic eggs, for the extra money any day.


And that's another problem I have with the marketing. They show all these organic looking, healthy whole foods. What they should put on the bag are photos of the actual meat as it comes into the rendering plant.


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## FarminaND

bett said:


> i've never seen "egg product" on any of the kibble i use. it may say dehydrated egg, but never "egg product".
> 
> as a matter of fact, i just checked and it says "whole egg".


If it doesn't say "product" it is incorrect labeling. The term "whole" is often used to describe something containing both egg yolk and egg white but with labeling "whole" does not mean that. 

If the product in the dog or cat food is removed from the shell for drying, then it must be called "egg product". Find a list of better foods and go through it and you will see the word "product" correctly used in many. 

It would be very difficult to use the shell, near impossible, to make a dried egg ingredient because the equipment wouldn't work, plus there are ash limitations imposed.


----------



## bett

FarminaND said:


> If it doesn't say "product" it is incorrect labeling. The term "whole" is often used to describe something containing both egg yolk and egg white but with labeling "whole" does not mean that.
> 
> If the product in the dog or cat food is removed from the shell for drying, then it must be called "egg product". Find a list of better foods and go through it and you will see the word "product" correctly used in many.
> 
> It would be very difficult to use the shell, near impossible, to make a dried egg ingredient because the equipment wouldn't work, plus there are ash limitations imposed.


so what does whole egg mean?
i'm gonna email the company and see if i get a response and will let you know what they say.


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## FarminaND

FBarnes said:


> And that's another problem I have with the marketing. They show all these organic looking, healthy whole foods. What they should put on the bag are photos of the actual meat as it comes into the rendering plant.


We only buy fresh chicken meat and dehydrated chicken meat from two suppliers, Amadori & AIA, both are supermarket suppliers throughout Italy. The dehydrated chicken is generally back meat from birds butchered for breasts and leg portions.


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## FarminaND

bett said:


> so what does whole egg mean?
> i'm gonna email the company and see if i get a response and will let you know what they say.


"Whole Egg" means nothing other than yolk and white but it should be labeled as "dried egg product" because the yolk and white have been removed from the shell. Even if you take a USDA AA graded egg and removed it from the shell, it is "egg product". The word "product" is just a descriptive term, it does not indicate lesser quality.

Have you ever seen how snow is made at a ski mountain? Dried egg is made that way but the liquid egg is sprayed as tiny particles in a warm, not hot, air chamber so it dries.

If you don't believe me Holistic Select has a very concise definition:

"Dried Egg Product is dried, whole, cooked eggs (minus shells). It is often added to pet foods to increase the protein biological value. Raw egg whites contain avidin, which binds to biotin (B Vitamin) to make it unavailable to the pet. Therefore, it is not recommended to feed pets raw eggs.


----------



## bett

FarminaND said:


> "Egg Product", "Dehydrated Egg Product" & "Liquid Egg Product" are the proper ways to label eggs on dog food labels. Proper insofar as the rules are concerned. If you use the word "whole" you are held to the USDA definition of "whole" which may or not be the same in other places.
> 
> We use the word "whole" outside the US because "whole" means the entire egg, but in USA "whole" is used to grade eggs for human consumption.
> 
> While ours are, there is no way to determine with 100% certainty if an egg with a broken shell was used to make the product we use. You will find many foods in the USA label in accordance with the law but some take the chance of spending lots of time defending the labeling.
> 
> When you use the word "product" it generally means on occasion eggs with broken shells or stained shells are used, but human grade eggs can also be labeled "product" as well. "Product" is just broader.


so, i am now confused. why do you say "We use the word "whole" outside the US because "whole" means the entire egg, but in USA "whole" is used to grade eggs for human consumption. 

and yet, you say that is improper labeling for kibble in the US.

i dont understand why that is improper? why do i care if the word "whole" is held to USDA definition of "whole" or if it differs elsewhere.

or, is it merely a difference in labeling from a country other than the US?


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## FarminaND

Outside of the USA, the word "whole" is allowed to describe an egg product containing the yolk and white. In the USA, the word "whole" cannot legally be used to describe an egg ingredient that is just yolk and white, thus removed from the shell. 

In the thread up a few pages you said something like "and what is egg product". I am trying to explain that is proper terminology.

Any pet food that uses the term "dried egg" or "dried whole egg" is not using the right name. By definition, dried egg products must be removed from the shell so it is an egg "product", or a part of the Whole Shell Egg. Officially the word "Whole" is limited to all the egg contents plus the intact shell.

Here is the official definition used by the USDA:

"What Are Egg Products? 

The term "egg products" refers to eggs that are removed from their shells for processing at facilities called "breaker plants." The processing of egg products includes breaking eggs, filtering, mixing, stabilizing, blending, pasteurizing, cooling, freezing or drying, and packaging. This is done at United States Department of Agriculture (USDA)-inspected plants.

Basic egg products include whole eggs, whites, yolks, and various blends—with or without non-egg ingredients—that are processed and pasteurized."

You seemed to think that "egg product" was a bad ingredient. I am just explaining what it is and how it should be labeled. The easiest way to understand this is if the ingredient is yolk and white, or yolk or white whether dried or liquid, the ingredient is "egg product". The term "whole" in lower case only means the combination of yolk and white but it is not an official ingredient name.

Simply ask the company if the ingredient is limited to yolk and white, if the answer is yes, they are labeling the ingredient wrong.


----------



## bett

FarminaND said:


> Outside of the USA, the word "whole" is allowed to describe an egg product containing the yolk and white. In the USA, the word "whole" cannot legally be used to describe an egg ingredient that is just yolk and white, thus removed from the shell.
> 
> In the thread up a few pages you said something like "and what is egg product". I am trying to explain that is proper terminology.
> 
> Any pet food that uses the term "dried egg" or "dried whole egg" is not using the right name. By definition, dried egg products must be removed from the shell so it is an egg "product", or a part of the Whole Shell Egg. Officially the word "Whole" is limited to all the egg contents plus the intact shell.
> 
> Here is the official definition used by the USDA:
> 
> "What Are Egg Products?
> 
> The term "egg products" refers to eggs that are removed from their shells for processing at facilities called "breaker plants." The processing of egg products includes breaking eggs, filtering, mixing, stabilizing, blending, pasteurizing, cooling, freezing or drying, and packaging. This is done at United States Department of Agriculture (USDA)-inspected plants.
> 
> Basic egg products include whole eggs, whites, yolks, and various blends—with or without non-egg ingredients—that are processed and pasteurized."
> 
> You seemed to think that "egg product" was a bad ingredient. I am just explaining what it is and how it should be labeled. The easiest way to understand this is if the ingredient is yolk and white, or yolk or white whether dried or liquid, the ingredient is "egg product". The term "whole" in lower case only means the combination of yolk and white but it is not an official ingredient name.
> 
> Simply ask the company if the ingredient is limited to yolk and white, if the answer is yes, they are labeling the ingredient wrong.







ok, i never said that egg product was bad, i asked what it was.
and the company was sent an email and is a US company with never a recall, and an old company as well so how can you say it is wrong, and should be labeled differently?
i asked the company what whole egg meant. and i am sure i will get an explanation but still do not understand why you say it isnt an official ingredient name. what makes it "wrong" (says who?)

"Basic egg products include whole eggs, whites, yolks, and various blends—with or without non-egg ingredients—that are processed and pasteurized.""-that's from your above post .

and, it's not only my kibble that uses the term "whole egg" as searching around , i found others, from the US so perhaps the terminology is wrong in your country but not here.


----------



## meggels

I think the point that Farmina is trying to make, is that by USDA standards, if it is *only* egg yolk and whites (no shell), it is supposed to be labeled dried egg product. If a company is only using egg yolks and whites, no shell, but are still labeling it as "whole eggs", then by USDA definitions, they are labeling it wrong.


----------



## bett

meggels said:


> I think the point that Farmina is trying to make, is that by USDA standards, if it is *only* egg yolk and whites (no shell), it is supposed to be labeled dried egg product. If a company is only using egg yolks and whites, no shell, but are still labeling it as "whole eggs", then by USDA definitions, they are labeling it wrong.


well, then lots of US companies are labeling it "wrong" but i'd love to know how he knows this and if it's "wrong" how is it done ?


----------



## Dr Dolittle

bett said:


> well, then lots of US companies are labeling it "wrong" but i'd love to know how he knows this and if it's "wrong" how is it done ?


LOL! Sorry Farmina but I am enjoying someone else getting beat up! LOL! You are actually doing a great job. Somehow any discussion of nutrients I try to have gets turned into bickering over an ingredient. It truly is amazing. Soeday I would like to discuss your protein and phosphorus levels......but not here! LOL!


----------



## FBarnes

Because... ingredients are important. And how they are presented on a label is important, too - no matter how many times we are told not to worry our pretty little heads about such things.

If you want to talk about nutrients, start a thread on it. This thread was started particularly about marketing, which apparently you really didn't want to talk about after all when it veered into areas that make you uncomfortable. I promise I will not comment on a nutrient thread.


----------



## bett

Dr Dolittle said:


> LOL! Sorry Farmina but I am enjoying someone else getting beat up! LOL! You are actually doing a great job. Somehow any discussion of nutrients I try to have gets turned into bickering over an ingredient. It truly is amazing. Soeday I would like to discuss your protein and phosphorus levels......but not here! LOL!


glad you are getting a chuckle. 
i'm trying to understand something and you think it's a yuck.

i think it 's even funnier how you started a thread about marketing (supposedly) and turned it into nutrients of prescription foods.
and i also think it's funny how you dont answer direct questions. 
really funny.


----------



## FarminaND

meggels said:


> I think the point that Farmina is trying to make, is that by USDA standards, if it is *only* egg yolk and whites (no shell), it is supposed to be labeled dried egg product. If a company is only using egg yolks and whites, no shell, but are still labeling it as "whole eggs", then by USDA definitions, they are labeling it wrong.


That is correct, not only USDA but AAFCO and FDA as well. As far as correct terminology goes, there is no such thing as "dried egg" or "dried whole egg" or "whole eggs" if the actual ingredients is the yolk and white separated from the shell. All of these ingredients are "egg product" whether dried or liquid. 

How do I know this? We just spent the last 3 months converting the Italian labels to US approved labels. A few minor ingredients needed to be removed and some customary names in Europe had to be changed, one of which was "dehydrated whole eggs." One kind of funny thing is that you can't use the word "meat" to describe poultry and fish. "Meat" is solely allowed to describe mammal flesh.

There are many, many labeling violation that go unchecked here. We removed Pea Fiber from all the GF foods because technically it is not a permitted ingredients, nor is Pea Protein an approved ingredient, which will we never use.


----------



## bett

i guess i'll get my answer from the FDA who i just emailed.
and then i will come back and let you know how it was explained to me.


----------



## meggels

FarminaND said:


> That is correct, not only USDA but AAFCO and FDA as well. As far as correct terminology goes, there is no such thing as "dried egg" or "dried whole egg" or "whole eggs" if the actual ingredients is the yolk and white separated from the shell. All of these ingredients are "egg product" whether dried or liquid.
> 
> How do I know this? We just spent the last 3 months converting the Italian labels to US approved labels. A few minor ingredients needed to be removed and some customary names in Europe had to be changed, one of which was "dehydrated whole eggs." One kind of funny thing is that you can't use the word "meat" to describe poultry and fish. "Meat" is solely allowed to describe mammal flesh.
> 
> There are many, many labeling violation that go unchecked here. We removed Pea Fiber from all the GF foods because technically it is not a permitted ingredients, nor is Pea Protein an approved ingredient, which will we never use.


Thank you for the explanation and insight, both you and Dr. Doolittle. I'm sorry that some members seems to be intent on bickering or starting arguments. Hope you two will stick around.


----------



## bett

here's my answer from fromm(i didnt ask about pea or pea protein and many foods have that listed as well)
still waiting for answer from the fda.

This is whole egg with only a small amount of shell that is unavoidable during the process. It is cooked and then dehydrated to make a concentrated free flowing powder. It is 100% whole egg of high quality and its extremely digestible.

Please let me know if this answers your question.

Thanks

-- 
Mr. Dana Watkins - M.S. Animal Nutrition
Nutrition and Technical Services Specialist
Fromm Family Foods LLC
262-242-2200 ext. 224


----------



## Liz

Thanks Bett for taking the time to get these answers direct from the manufacturer. I guess that would be a "whole egg" for people but my dogs enjoy and can make use of the shell also. Interesting all that goes onto a bag to describe ingredients, contents and nutrients. 

Can't wait to see what the FDA responds with. Thanks for taking the time to get this point clarified. 

Liz


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## Liz

I am not seeing many "arguments" - questioning, asking for clarification and being detail oriented. I believe when dealing with any processed food important points can come down to the smallest detail. This is true in human or animal processed food. I appreciate the information and those asking the questions even though we feed differently. 

Liz:wink:


----------



## meggels

The issue is, by USDA definitions, that is NOT whole egg, as it would need to contain the entire shell, not just a tiny bit. So why is Fromm labeling it as dried whole egg?


----------



## bett

meggels said:


> The issue is, by USDA definitions, that is NOT whole egg, as it would need to contain the entire shell, not just a tiny bit. So why is Fromm labeling it as dried whole egg?


dont know the answer to that, but you do realize it's many other companies besides fromm.(and they dont label it dried, they label it "whole egg"-the response was in more detail, as you read, saying in fact, it is dried by the time they are done with it) i did look but sadly, didnt copy down the list.
and pea and pea protein is listed in many foods, fromm being only one of them.

i havent heard yet , from the fda, but it doesn't seem to be a secret, what these companies are doing.

perhaps, the rules, laws, or what have you, are different if you are a company from abroad (for example) and wanting to sell here, in the US.
because what was said, doesnt seem to be true for here and now. 
i certainly have no explanation, just trying to find out the answer.(since i did see many labels saying "whole egg")

and funny liz, but while i am not a true raw feeder, i do give my guys eggs, with the shells, and often times, raw.


----------



## NewfieAussie

bett said:


> dont know the answer to that, but you do realize it's many other companies besides fromm.(and they dont label it dried, they label it "whole egg"-the response was in more detail, as you read, saying in fact, it is dried by the time they are done with it) i did look but sadly, didnt copy down the list.
> and pea and pea protein is listed in many foods, fromm being only one of them.
> 
> i havent heard yet , from the fda, but it doesn't seem to be a secret, what these companies are doing.
> 
> perhaps, the rules, laws, or what have you, are different if you are a company from abroad (for example) and wanting to sell here, in the US.
> because what was said, doesnt seem to be true for here and now.
> i certainly have no explanation, just trying to find out the answer.(since i did see many labels saying "whole egg")
> 
> and funny liz, but while i am not a true raw feeder, i do give my guys eggs, with the shells, and often times, raw.


Well with all this egg talk I had to drag a Fromm Gold sack out of the Vittles Vault and see for myself the Whole Egg on the ingredients list. There it is, Whole Egg. Seems to me that Fromm is simply wrong in their labeling. Period. Simple as that.


----------



## meggels

When I look at The 4 Star line online, it says "Whole Dried Egg" as the term.

Gold uses the term Whole Egg. Same for the Classics line.

I think it's simply mislabeling on Fromms part. Easy as that.


----------



## bett

gf says whole egg. 

and as i said, there are other brands and they too, say whole egg.

and if it is mislabeling, wouldnt there be a problem with that?


----------



## bett

meggels said:


> When I look at The 4 Star line online, it says "Whole Dried Egg" as the term.
> 
> Gold uses the term Whole Egg. Same for the Classics line.
> 
> I think it's simply mislabeling on Fromms part. Easy as that.


well, sorry, but i dont think it is "easy as that"

i just went to orijen, as an example; both puppy foods have not only whole egg, but green peas and pea fiber.
6 fish -peas
adult -whole eggs
regional -whole eggs, green peas, yellow peas, and pea fiber
senior-whole eggs, pea fiber, and green peas.


so just maybe, it has to do with a european country trying to sell in the states. perhaps the rules are different. or else a whole lot of dog food companies are putting themselves at risk.


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## meggels

Bett, I feel like you are entirely missing the point. The definition that Fromm themselves gave you of what they are using is *not* what aligns with the USDA's definition. So while Fromm is saying they use whole eggs, what they described is NOT by USDA standards whole eggs, but rather, dried egg product. That would be misleading on their labels on Fromms part (which btw, check the website, the grain free lists "whole dried egg). 

We are discussing Fromm bc that is who you originally brought up. If someone is to call Champion and ask what exactly their whole egg is (whether it consists of entire shell or not), then we can judge them next. Not every state has to approve labels if a food is going to be sold there; some do, some don't. So it's not a clear cut answer whether Fromm could really get in trouble for mislabeling.


----------



## bett

meggels said:


> Bett, I feel like you are entirely missing the point. The definition that Fromm themselves gave you of what they are using is *not* what aligns with the USDA's definition. So while Fromm is saying they use whole eggs, what they described is NOT by USDA standards whole eggs, but rather, dried egg product. That would be misleading on their labels on Fromms part (which btw, check the website, the grain free lists "whole dried egg).
> 
> We are discussing Fromm bc that is who you originally brought up. If someone is to call Champion and ask what exactly their whole egg is (whether it consists of entire shell or not), then we can judge them next. Not every state has to approve labels if a food is going to be sold there; some do, some don't. So it's not a clear cut answer whether Fromm could really get in trouble for mislabeling.


im not missing the point at all meg. you are taking farmina's word that it is in fact the truth. perhaps, a i said before, it's different for someone in europe trying to sell in the states.i also am trying to find out from the USDA standard on this subject.
did you read the USDA standard because if you have that link, i'd love to see it. or are you taking farmina's word (not saying he's not telling the truth, but as i said, perhaps it's different from europe to the states. i find it very hard to believe, that all the companies that have whole egg (and lets not forget he also said pea , and pea fiber) is wrong labeling and not allowed.

and i have the bag of fromm and it says whole egg. i'll go and check again, but what about orijen? that's a mislabel also.?

why is it, that he is right, and maybe, i am not wrong?


----------



## meggels

Also, what are these many other foods that use the term "whole egg"? I can only think of Champion off the top of my head. 90% of the time though, I see Dried Egg Product.


----------



## bett

i listed orijen foods and before i go searching i would like to let you know this. i just called FDA-closed until after labor day as is the USDA .
however, in the 90's , only eggs from canada can be sent to the US . so for all i know, it has to do with eggs and pasteurization in europe.
he also said pea and pea fibre and if you want to , research that, many dog foods, not only from or orijen have peas and pea fiber.

so perhaps, it has to do with standards on pasteurization , nothing further i can research but i'm curious, only curious, as to why i am the one thought of as not correct along with the dog food labels that state "whole eggs".?

i'll check and see if "90%" of the time, the labels say dried egg product" and then i guess, the other 10% will get a demerit.


----------



## meggels

Bett, I'm not saying anything against the 10% of foods that do use that term, I'm merely stating that most of the time, I see Dried Egg Product on labels, not whole eggs.

Also, I just got off the phone with the nutritionist at Fromm, he said it is "dried whole egg", not whole egg, so I'm not sure where you are seeing that?? The grain free bags don't have the word "dried" in front of it???


----------



## bett

you saw the letter from dana, from fromm to me, didnt you? (page 15)

and ok, so what about orijen-did you see whole egg in their ingredient list?


----------



## bett

the nearly comical thing here, is that dr doolittle started this thread NOT about nutrition but labeling. and you yourself meg, asked him at least 2 times what he recommends . i asked several times . lilasmom asked several times.
answer? no answer.

farmina came in, and is from europe, and his eggs he discusses are from france so , as i said before, maybe it has to do with a pasteurization thing.
you said you didnt see fromm having whole egg, i showed the letter i received from fromm regarding the whole egg, and newfieaussie also said she pulled out a fromm bag with whole egg written on it.

if i get any clearer answers from the fda or the usda, i will be sure to post. regardless of the responses.
at least, they will answer a straight question.


----------



## bett

Fromm Gold Nutritionals Adult
Dry Dog Food
Estimated Dry Matter Nutrient Content
Protein
0
100
27
Fat
0
100
18
Carbs
0
100
48
Ingredients: Fresh duck, chicken meal, fresh chicken, brown rice, pearled barley, oatmeal, menhaden fish meal, chicken fat, fresh lamb, fresh Russet potatoes, dried tomato pomace, whole egg, salmon oil, fresh Wisconsin cheese, flaxseed, brewers dried yeast, alfalfa meal, fresh carrots, fresh lettuce, fresh celery, chicken cartilage, monocalcium phosphate, salt, potassium chloride, dl-methionine, chicory root extract, calcium sulfate, Yucca schidigera extract, sodium selenite, vitamin A acetate, vitamin D3 supplement, vitamin E supplement, vitamin B12 supplement, choline bitartrate, niacin supplement, d-calcium pantothenate, l-ascorbyl-2-polyphosphate, riboflavin supplement, thiamine mononitrate, pyridoxine hydrochloride, folic acid, biotin, zinc sulfate, ferrous sulfate, manganous sulfate, magnesium sulfate, copper sulfate, cobalt carbonate, calcium iodate, sorbic acid (preservative), ferrous proteinate, zinc proteinate, copper proteinate, manganese proteinate, magnesium proteinate, cobalt proteinate, dried Lactobacillus acidophilus fermentation product, dried Bifidobacterium longum fermentation product, dried Lactobacillus plantarum fermentation product, dried Enterococcous faecium fermentation product
Fiber (estimated dry matter content) = 3.9%
Red items when present indicate controversial ingredients
Estimated Nutrient Content




another fromm:
http://frommfamily.com/products/classics/dog/dry/adult

and another fromm:

http://frommfamily.com/products/classics/dog/dry/mature-adult


and the 7 kibble on this page as well:
http://frommfamily.com/products/gold/dog


----------



## bett

Bettie,

This is a very complicated issue. The FDA and AAFCO work together on setting the definitions for pet food ingredients. In some cases, the FDA has one definition and AAFCO has another. Then the Model Bill and Regulations offered by AAFCO can be accepted as -written by AAFCO or certain states maintain their right to add certain changes. Technically, pea protein, pea fiber and pea flour are not truly defined by AAFCO. However, certain sates have no problem with their use based upon the fact they are used in human foods and thus have not shown to be a danger in foods, when used. The entire process of now getting new ingredients approved for use is simply to slow to do us any good. AAFCO is working on it with the FDA but do not expect any miracles here. What we use is whole egg not a dried egg product. I just recently spent many hours with the head of the pet food committee for AAFCO reviewing the Federal regulations and those of AAFCO to make sure that definition was correct. Unfortunately, there are many loopholes in the definitions because of the way the regulations are written. That is our governments fault and believe me it is very confusing. Hope this helps and remember, what something is called as not as important as the nutrients it offers. After all, the primary purpose of food is to supply the body with those required nutrients, safely. If it does that, what we call it, what we think about it, where it comes from, how it is cooked and many other things really do not matter.

Thanks



that's my latest from dana from fromm

in addition nature's variety puppy uses "chicken eggs" (whatever that means, i guess not duck or quail or turkey or ostrich or...)., and acana (yes, another champion product) uses whole egg for their small breed, wild prairie, chicken and potato.

i think dana said it best.


----------



## meggels

That's bizarre bc when I was on the phone with him earlier, he said it was dried whole egg. And again, go to Fromms website and read the ingredient labels on the 4 star line. Their website says dried whole egg on the 4 star products, and only whole egg on gold and classic products, which I stated before.


----------



## meggels

I just reread your response from Dana, and he even says its made into a dried powder.

dried whole eggs = the dried egg powder he mentions


----------



## bett

i never said a thing about not making it into a powder-what would one think they do when they are making kibble? (just throw in wet eggs and think they will blend in with the rest of the slop and mix into kibble?) and if you read the first letter from dana, she said that already.

the point was, if there even was a point, that many brands (the links i provided) say "whole egg" as did the others from orijen and nature's variety puppy and acana (i know, orijen and acana are both champion)..and farmina basically said that is wrong. well....i still wonder if it has to do with pasteurization from a foreign country.


dana's letter, the last one, kind of explains it. 

this is not a black and white issue, obviously.


i just dont read a post and take it as a fact. i learn by researching and listening to a variety of folks, who i respect. 
i dont listen to folks who may use words unfamiliar, for example, and think that whatever they said, means that it's true. 

actually, the point here for me, is , if i dont agree with what the person says in the post, i am called argumentative.

because i will respond, always politely, whenever i see fit. even if i dont agree with the post.


----------



## meggels

alright, im gonna step out now


----------



## FarminaND

My comments have nothing to do with pasteurization in another country. The rules on this particular issue are more flexible in Italy because the word "whole" means the yolk plus white together, so even a dried product removed from the shell may be called 'whole dried egg".

It is actually not a complicated issue when it comes to labeling eggs in the Unites States and frankly it is very precise technically. By definition, any part of the interior egg that is dried must be removed from the shell. Can we agree on that? If we can, then any dried egg ingredient is defined as "dried or dehydrated egg product". If the ingredient is not dried then it is called "liquid egg product." The simple procedure of cracking the egg and removing the yolk and white, makes those two items "egg products."

If pet food companies continue to use the term "whole dried egg" it is because of the day-to-day language of describing egg yolk and eggs whites together as "whole egg". This does not apply to pet food labeling however.

We are discussing the ingredient in very narrow terms, meaning how it should be worded on the label of the pet food bag.

Bett, the description provided by your pet food company is that of high quality and very desirable "dried or dehydrated egg product" not "dried whole eggs". Your company I am sure buys this ingredient from a very reputable company that specializes in making this dried egg ingredient under USDA supervision. I also applaud your company for trying to explain this to you. Dried eggs products are extremely nutritious and receive minimal processing.

The terminology 'product" is only meant to precisely explain that the ingredient was removed from the shell and processed. From a nutritional standpoint the ingredient is whole egg, but not by official definition.


----------



## bett

all i know, in simple terms, is that the ingredient on the bag, says "whole egg".
i am not naive enough to think they toss the whole egg in and wha-la.....kibble.
and while you seem to say, it doesnt apply to pet food labeling, it seems to, in some cases.


----------



## danea

Is it not due to the loopholes in the definitions they can actually call it whatever they want?
and it can basically be …anything?


----------



## Jan Fred

Dog feeding likewise requires constant supply of fresh, clean water. Again, like with humans, water is very essential in a dog’s life. Aside from preventing any forms of dehydration, water can also regulate the dog’s body temperature and flushes away toxins. It’s important to note that even when you’re feeding your dog moist food, water is still mandatory.


----------



## Herzo

Jan Fred said:


> Dog feeding likewise requires constant supply of fresh, clean water. Again, like with humans, water is very essential in a dog’s life. Aside from preventing any forms of dehydration, water can also regulate the dog’s body temperature and flushes away toxins. It’s important to note that even when you’re feeding your dog moist food, water is still mandatory.


Ok so you have posted this twice now in different threads. And what does it have to do with this conversation?


----------



## meggels

danea said:


> Is it not due to the loopholes in the definitions they can actually call it whatever they want?
> and it can basically be …anything?


Dana actually mentioned something about loopholes yesterday, that Fromm had figured some out...


----------



## Dr Dolittle

FBarnes said:


> Because... ingredients are important. And how they are presented on a label is important, too - no matter how many times we are told not to worry our pretty little heads about such things.
> 
> If you want to talk about nutrients, start a thread on it. This thread was started particularly about marketing, which apparently you really didn't want to talk about after all when it veered into areas that make you uncomfortable. I promise I will not comment on a nutrient thread.


Forgive me if 
'I am mistaken but every time a prescription diet showed up on this thread it came from Bett or you. I was simply answering your objections to those ingredient panels. Ironically we may all agree we don't like how ingredient panels are manipulated for marketing purposes but yet when I explain that the nutrients such as phosphorus help reveal the quality of those ingredients, you refer back to RX diets and how awful they are. I am trying to at least present the argument that maybe some of you think they are so terrible because you have been trained that way by the marketing efforts of these companies. I guess I am quilts of not caring about the word egg product vs whole egg vs dried egg. If you want to worry your pretty little head about those things, that's fine. Then can I worry my head about the excess minerals delivered by inferior ingredients that misleadingly look good on an ingredient panel? I don't understand your willingness to defend these companies and then demonize others. I'm not trying to sell anything, recommend anything, just present another side of the argument that I know from experience. Thankfully Farmina is here to get into details I can't or choose not to delve, mainly because it doesn't really affect my decision about the food. If the calcium/ phosphorus levels are good, the egg shells don't matter to me. But that's just me.

The only way to counter the ingredient game marketing is to point out the opposite and correct way to judge the food. Anyone can throw together a bunch of attractive ingredients, manipulate an ingredient panel, and get out there in the market and compete for our business. And as long as the ingredients are your main focus, you know very little about what you are feeding.

By the way, a thread on nutrients would be something you should want to comment on because you choose to agree or to, if you are feeding kibble you are trusting that food company is supplying 50 to 55 uterine t's at the optimal levels for the health of your pet....regardless of the ingredient panel.

Sorry I annoy you so much too. wasn't my intention! Not sure what I'm uncomfortable about. I'm good!


----------



## Dr Dolittle

bett said:


> glad you are getting a chuckle.
> i'm trying to understand something and you think it's a yuck.
> 
> i think it 's even funnier how you started a thread about marketing (supposedly) and turned it into nutrients of prescription foods.
> and i also think it's funny how you dont answer direct questions.
> really funny.


Sorry Bett, Really didn't mean to offend you. Figured we all needed to chill bit, that's all. I suppose we all pick the details we are concerned about. If I trust Fromm, Hills, whomever, based on their nutrient profile I just am not that concerned about how the egg product is worded. I guess it's a matter of trust. As I told FBarnes, I think if you look thru the thread you will find the only times I even bring up RX diets are when I am responding to both of you, especially you and L/D. Trying to answer those specific concerns. But I will say again for the upteenth time perhaps, that the way to reveal the quality of some ingredients, specifically meat protein sources, is not by the fancy appealing name on the bag but the phosphorus level. So yes, nutrients have to be discussed in the context of the ingredient panel because they tell you what the ingredient panel doesn't. Not sure why you get so mad at me and not the food companies playing these games. I'm just reporting the info. that's all! I don't answer direct questions about what I recommend or fed because I felt I should just pass on industry info and am not here to sell anything. but I do have two dogs that I love dearly. In fact last night I had a night mare they were lost and I had to get out of bed and make sure they were still in their beds! I'm not the enemy! Thiugh I believe many food companies are!


----------



## bett

meggels said:


> Dana actually mentioned something about loopholes yesterday, that Fromm had figured some out...


loopholes in the definition. (not that fromm figured out loopholes)


----------



## meggels

bett said:


> loopholes in the definition. (not that fromm figured out loopholes)


Yes, that they (Fromm) had figured out loopholes in the definition/labeling between AAFCO and FDA.


----------



## bett

you so make it sound like fromm is doing something illegal. dont know if you mean to do that, but you do know it's not just fromm, right?
and you did read dana's second response to me, and how she tried to explain the different agencies and the different meanings, right? and i think the real point is that they used whole eggs dried, rather than an egg product, according to what she wrote.

there are loopholes and there are "loopholes".
and you read her reasoning re the pea, and pea fiber (that somehow , you arent even discussing, which was part of the original discussion too).
and you do realize, i believe, that many companies now have peas, and pea fiber in their foods.


----------



## meggels

What do peas even have to do with this???

Dana is a man, btw. 

"and i think the real point is that they used whole eggs dried, rather than an egg product, according to what she wrote."

The point is, that by definition, what they are using IS "dried egg product". So when you see "dried egg product" on another foods label, say, Earthborn Holistic for instance who uses "dried egg product", it is the same thing as Fromm's "dried whole egg".


----------



## bett

ok, dana is a man. i couldnt tell that from the emails.
point for you meg.
i'm sorry you dont remember but farmina also talked of pea and pea fiber in the same post whole egg not being permitted on labels.
and according to dana, a dried egg product is not the same as a whole egg dried.
done.


----------



## meggels

Okay, now I am really needing to step out. I don't think it could have been made any clearer. And I am gonna go enjoy having a normal 2 day weekend now


----------



## Shamrockmommy

Dr. Doolittle, did you get chased away? I am still wondering what the ideal phosphorus range would be to show that a food is of good quality. Thanks


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## Dr Dolittle

Shamrockmommy said:


> Dr. Doolittle, did you get chased away? I am still wondering what the ideal phosphorus range would be to show that a food is of good quality. Thanks


LOL! Shamrockmommy, Heck no, you raw radicals haven't chased me away yet! LOL! (Just kidding, Bett!)

I've been reading more threads than writing lately I guess. I thout I answered your question but I decided to go to the Small Animal Clinical Nutrition, 5th edition, which is the standard nutrition textbook for vet schools and owned by most vets, since they refer to it thru their career. It's pretty much the authoritative work internationally, translated into many languages. KNF's or Key Nutritional Factors are recommended in different ranges, based on age and disease condition, and is based on all the experience and research done on the subject. And no it doesn't promote one food company.

Adult, non reproducing dogs
Protein. 15 - 30 % on a dry matter basis
Fat. 10 -20%. 
Calcium. .5-1.0 %
Phosphorus .4-.8%

Vitamin E >400 IU/kg
Vitamin C >100 IU/kg

Geriatric, healthy dogs
Protein. 15 - 23% on a dry matter basis
Fat. 10 - 15% 
Calcium. .5-1.0 %
Phosphorus .3-.7%

Vitamin E >400 IU/kg
Vitamin C >100 IU/kg

Now those numbers are quite a wide range, and one could debate any of them, but the body of research as we know it drives those numbers. those numbers, based on a disease state, will determine what ingredients to use, such as infancy ingredients like cellulose, corn gluten meal, etc. Those lower phosphorus levels are difficult to achieve in raw and high protein grain free diets, unless you are using the very best meat sources. There are a few grain free diets that achieve that, and I believe Farmina said theirs were at .8%. That is proof they are buying and using high quality meat sources. In contrast, Taste of the Wild, Orijen, Wellness Core GF are at 1.2 to 1.5 phosphorus. Sorry, but they are not investing their money in their meat sources like Farmina is. It's that simple. LOL! And no! I don't work for Farmina!

Of course we live in a strange time these days where we tend to buy into what we already believe in and are easily swayed by marketing. To give you an extreme example, I remember years ago calling Authority, the private label at Petsmart. I was very impressed with the nutrient levels, though they would not tell me who was making it. I know it was Purina years ago but not anymore. Okay, none of us would get caught dead walking out of Petsmart with a bag of Authority but I sure am curious how well it would perform. No, not trying my dogs! But even the employees don't recommend it though they are supposed to. Instead, they recommend Blue Buffalo and other expensive foods, sincerely believing they are better, based on manipulated ingredient panels and a high price.

And remember these ranges are scientific but the govt does not enforce these. Like those examples of so called Senior foods I mentioned way back on this thread, food companies just have to be above established minimums. It is virtually impossible to find deficiencies of nutrients because of the laws, but excesses are extremely common, especially since the introduction of GF, holistic, and ingredient based marketing.


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## Jace

> There are a few grain free diets that achieve that, and I believe Farmina said theirs were at .8%


I just looked on the Farmina site and the Chicken is .90% Phosphorus.. For me I think the bigger part of the picture is the inability overall, to compare brands Nutrient Profiles without looking at the overall recipe. Even then, who knows. As an example Chicken or Turkey Meal and specifically Fish Meal has significantly higher Phos levels. If a product is using meat, as the first ingredient, rather than "meal", this can change overall specific mineral levels, as can the level of each. As a further example, and strictly from a "nutrient" perspective, by product meals have less minerals, as organs contain less mineral than the bone included in meals. I am not convinced you can deduce "quality" from a specific level, as mentioned above.


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## Celt

Dr Dolittle said:


> Okay, none of us would get caught dead walking out of Petsmart with a bag of Authority but I sure am curious how well it would perform. No, not trying my dogs!.


I have walked out of Petsmart with authority puppy food, several times now. My 3 are doing very well on it. Of course, it's just one of a variety so can't say how it would be fed on its own. But my picky pups eat the regular puppy food enthusaistically, the grain free not so thrilled about but willing. Have to say I find this discuss interesting, even though, I'm not quite as "adamnet" about ingredients, etc.


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## Sapphire-Light

Dr Dolittle said:


> Now those numbers are quite a wide range, and one could debate any of them, but the body of research as we know it drives those numbers. those numbers, based on a disease state, will determine what ingredients to use, such as infancy ingredients like cellulose, corn gluten meal, etc. Those lower phosphorus levels are difficult to achieve in raw and high protein grain free diets, unless you are using the very best meat sources. There are a few grain free diets that achieve that, and I believe Farmina said theirs were at .8%. That is proof they are buying and using high quality meat sources. In contrast, Taste of the Wild, Orijen, Wellness Core GF are at 1.2 to 1.5 phosphorus. Sorry, but they are not investing their money in their meat sources like Farmina is. It's that simple. LOL! And no! I don't work for Farmina!


Thanks for the info in phosphorus , I noticed that eartborn primitive has a 1.5% but in the international version of the food that's different in some ingredients (like lacking turkey) from the US one that one has a 1% according to the website.

Ah and I ran into this website about phosphorus Phosphorus and Protein in Dog Foods


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## Shamrockmommy

Thanks, Dr. Doolittle. Good information to know! Now off to try to find info on my favorite foods


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## Shamrockmommy

Well the Petcurean NOW! small breed checks out with 0.8%. Fromm doesn't have it listed, so I emailed them, PetGuard is 1.0%. 
Acana is 1.4-1.5% of the ones that I checked. Interesting! 
This may change things for me, a little!


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## Dr Dolittle

Jace said:


> I just looked on the Farmina site and the Chicken is .90% Phosphorus.. For me I think the bigger part of the picture is the inability overall, to compare brands Nutrient Profiles without looking at the overall recipe. Even then, who knows. As an example Chicken or Turkey Meal and specifically Fish Meal has significantly higher Phos levels. If a product is using meat, as the first ingredient, rather than "meal", this can change overall specific mineral levels, as can the level of each. As a further example, and strictly from a "nutrient" perspective, by product meals have less minerals, as organs contain less mineral than the bone included in meals. I am not convinced you can deduce "quality" from a specific level, as mentioned above.


Jace, you are right but that's the point! Individual ingredients aren't as important as the finished product. That's what you are paying for! How well does the company take various ingredients and the different quality ingredients and produce a final product! When you say recipe are you meaning the ingredients? The ONLY way because of the misleading definitions is to look at certain nutrients.


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## Dr Dolittle

Celt said:


> I have walked out of Petsmart with authority puppy food, several times now. My 3 are doing very well on it. Of course, it's just one of a variety so can't say how it would be fed on its own. But my picky pups eat the regular puppy food enthusaistically, the grain free not so thrilled about but willing. Have to say I find this discuss interesting, even though, I'm not quite as "adamnet" about ingredients, etc.


well there you go! Like I said it has been years but I was impressed. it just proves my point that the old adage You get what you pay for doesn't apply to pet food.


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## Dr Dolittle

Sapphire-Light said:


> Thanks for the info in phosphorus , I noticed that eartborn primitive has a 1.5% but in the international version of the food that's different in some ingredients (like lacking turkey) from the US one that one has a 1% according to the website.
> 
> Ah and I ran into this website about phosphorus Phosphorus and Protein in Dog Foods


Sapphire! that's really great! I would love to see that updated and including all the grain free fancy foods. thanks for finding that! Not sure the source but I know some of those numbers by heart and they look right to me.


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## lovemydogsalways

So what are some foods with low phosphorus?


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## Shamrockmommy

Dr. Doolittle, what do you think of this one?  


Turkey, Turkey Meal, Chicken Meal, Dried Peas, Tapioca Starch, Whole Dry Potatoes, Poultry Fat (Preserved with Mixed Tocopherols), Dried Plain Beet Pulp, Flax Seed, Natural Chicken Flavor, Salt, Calcium Carbonate, Potassium Chloride, Zinc Sulfate, Choline Chloride, Zinc Proteinate, Vitamin E Supplement, Iron Proteinate, L-Ascorbyl-2-Polyphosphate (Source of Vitamin C), Manganese Proteinate, Copper Proteinate, Niacin Supplement, Calcium Pantothenate, Biotin, Sodium Selenite, Vitamin A Supplement, Riboflavin Supplement, Thiamine Mononitrate, Vitamin B12 Supplement, Calcium Iodate, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride, Vitamin D3 Supplement, Folic Acid.
Guaranteed Analysis
Min. 26.0%Crude Protein
Min. 14.0%Crude Fat
Max. 4.0%Crude Fiber
Max. 11.0%Moisture
Min. 1.5%Linoleic Acid
Min. 1.1%Calcium
Min. 0.9%Phosphorus
Min. 250 mg/kgZinc
Min. 225 IU/kgVitamin E
Min. 55 mg/kg*Ascorbic Acid
Min. 0.1%*Alpha-Linolenic Acid
*Not recognized as an essential nutrient by the AAFCO Dog Food Nutrient Profiles


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## Dr Dolittle

Shamrockmommy said:


> Dr. Doolittle, what do you think of this one?
> 
> 
> Turkey, Turkey Meal, Chicken Meal, Dried Peas, Tapioca Starch, Whole Dry Potatoes, Poultry Fat (Preserved with Mixed Tocopherols), Dried Plain Beet Pulp, Flax Seed, Natural Chicken Flavor, Salt, Calcium Carbonate, Potassium Chloride, Zinc Sulfate, Choline Chloride, Zinc Proteinate, Vitamin E Supplement, Iron Proteinate, L-Ascorbyl-2-Polyphosphate (Source of Vitamin C), Manganese Proteinate, Copper Proteinate, Niacin Supplement, Calcium Pantothenate, Biotin, Sodium Selenite, Vitamin A Supplement, Riboflavin Supplement, Thiamine Mononitrate, Vitamin B12 Supplement, Calcium Iodate, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride, Vitamin D3 Supplement, Folic Acid.
> Guaranteed Analysis
> Min. 26.0%Crude Protein
> Min. 14.0%Crude Fat
> Max. 4.0%Crude Fiber
> Max. 11.0%Moisture
> Min. 1.5%Linoleic Acid
> Min. 1.1%Calcium
> Min. 0.9%Phosphorus
> Min. 250 mg/kgZinc
> Min. 225 IU/kgVitamin E
> Min. 55 mg/kg*Ascorbic Acid
> Min. 0.1%*Alpha-Linolenic Acid
> *Not recognized as an essential nutrient by the AAFCO Dog Food Nutrient Profiles


Hey Shamrockmommy! Sorry! I hadn't noticed your question. You probably know my answer! LOL! The ingredient panel looks as wonderful as everyone else's since that's how food is marketed now. The fresh meat as the first ingredient is there, again like everyone else. The two types of poultry is meaningless nutritionally but again looks nice on the panel. I have no problem with any of the ingredients. The analysis remember is just minimums and maximums but I like 26% protein to 14% fat? Maybe not for a couch potato that doesn't move much. I can' tell the actual quality of the food since the phosphorus and sodium are just minimums so I would call the company for that if it was my dog. Vit E at 225 IU is typical but I prefer triple that.

To be honest, the marketing of dog food and the explosion of new foods and even new companies has all of us looking at the very same things and there isn't much difference. The marketing guys are all doing the very same things so consumers are grabbing based on the littlest things that grab their eye. Unfortunately, the discussion of nutrition is lost and too many animals will suffer. You and the group of dog lovers on this forum don't really fit into the demographics food companies are looking at but it is interesting to read how you all think. Can't say they all are but I have to believe companies look at these types of forums to make future marketing decisions. I always believed consumer demand driving marketing was a good thing but I have changed my mind on that one! God Bless!


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## Dr Dolittle

lovemydogsalways said:


> So what are some foods with low phosphorus?


Sorry if I never answered you. I tend to lose track on these threads. Considering the types of foods popular on this forum the Hills Ideal Balance grain Free would have the lowest phosphorus and still the ingredients that are popular these days. I don't feed it and am not interested in grain free, but the nutrient levels are impressive. The Vit E is over 600 IUs, one of the highest. Again, I don't need the blueberries and the pretty bag and all that but a food of that type made by a company with more nutritionists on staff than all other pet food companies combined, is a pretty good mix. Recently I found Nutro's Ultra to be much lower than their Natural Choice, which was a surprise to me. Just shows you have to look at every diet. And remember minimums tell you nothing. You need actual sorry at least maximums.


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## Shamrockmommy

Sorry to dig up an old thread. Did you see Nutro Ultra completely changed their formulas and no longer list phosphorus. Fascinating (not!)


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