# How many litters a year?



## BrownieM (Aug 30, 2010)

What is the maximum number of litters a reputable breeder will breed within a year? When looking for a puppy, what do you look for, as far as breeding volume? Please provide an explanation.

I personally think four to five litters is the *absolute maximum* a breeder should produce within a year. I actually have not yet found a reputable breeder that breeds even this many.

I have never purchased from a breeder who bred more than 1 or 2 per year. How can you properly provide individual socialization for several litters bred within a small period of time? How can you properly screen potential homes of several litters of puppies produced within one year? How can you make a living while taking care of several litters of puppies and providing appropriate socialization?

Let's keep this discussion civil! :smile:


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## whiteleo (Sep 7, 2008)

Most of the B.T breeders I know only do maybe 1 litter every couple years, they are very particular about their breedings and who will get their puppies. If we had more people like that then we wouldn't have a glut of dogs in this world.


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## BrownieM (Aug 30, 2010)

I agree, whiteleo. Especially on being extremely picky on who they will breed and who will get their puppies. I think you cannot be too careful about who you sell your puppies to.


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## RawFedDogs (Jun 16, 2008)

This is some left over stuff from the other thread. BrownieM, If you don't want it in this thread, tell me and I'll delete it. Going back to the other thread, BrownieM said, 



> And RFD, your argument is not valid because a breeder should always consider health as the most important aspect when deciding to breed or not.


I agree whole heartedly, however, "should's" and "do's" are too seperate things. You RARELY hear a breeder say, "I pulled <dog's name> from my breeding program because of <some health problem>. Thats usually true in cases where you can't tell about the health problem by looking at the dog.



> Proving a dog through performance or conformation does not mean they are suitable to breed.


True again, but how many champions do you know that aren't breeding because of health problems?



> The combination of proving the dog AND demonstrating health through all possible genetic tests is how GOOD breeders will better the breed.


If all that works according to the plan, it's still not true because all these "super genes" are kept in a very limited gene pool. It will have no effect on the general breed population so it does not improve the breed, only a very small closed part of it, if that. Note: I'm speaking mainly of the "show breeders".


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## BrownieM (Aug 30, 2010)

Unfortunately, RFD, what you describe DOES often happen. I know of a gorgeous dog that was at Westminster that may carry a very bad disease. This dog, IMO, should NOT have ever been bred. Unfortunately, he continues to show and breed. 

There are some good breeders out there, though, that DO pull CH. dogs from their breeding program because of health issues. I think all breeders should strive to be like this.

There are also good CH. or Performance titled dogs with low COI (so therefore increased genetic diversity compared to other dogs of the breed) and that test clear on testable diseases. These are the ideal dogs and bitches to breed, IMO. I could never be a breeder, btw, too many things to consider.

But regardless, even with perfectly healthy dogs (as far as the testing can determine, at least. testing is not perfect!) I still think 5,6,7+ litters in one year is simply too many. Doesn't matter if we are talking mutts or Specials quality dogs/bitches.


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## DaneMama (Jun 27, 2008)

I think it largely depends on how many breeding dogs the breeder has. It also depends a lot on the breed of dog as well. 

Almost everything I've read (canine reproductive books) says to skip heat cycles to give a bitch a break from being a mom. But I haven't seen anything scientific that says giving them breaks is beneficial or not. Logic and common sense tells me that they DO need some time off between breedings. Does anyone have any scientific articles on this subject?

ETA: it also depends a lot on the goals of the breeder. WHY is the breeder breeding dogs?


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## Celt (Dec 27, 2010)

regarding socializing a large group of puppies, it is possible if you have enough "volunteers" to help out. I once had a surprise litter of 15 pups. It was definitely an experience (and not one I want to have again) but other than the "hands on" socializing the rest isn't much different. After all, exposing a lot of pups to the "outside" stimulus (noises, surfaces, etc) isn't any more difficult than say 6.


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## mischiefgrrl (Oct 28, 2010)

My vet and I actually talked about this while discussing spaying Tiffa before or after her first heat cycle. He said that they have a higher risk of breast cancer with each heat and recommends spaying before the first heat. For breeders his ideal suggestion is breeding for two heat cycles (no breaks) and then spaying to retire.


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## RaisingWolves (Mar 19, 2011)

mischiefgrrl said:


> My vet and I actually talked about this while discussing spaying Tiffa before or after her first heat cycle. He said that they have a higher risk of breast cancer with each heat and recommends spaying before the first heat. For breeders his ideal suggestion is breeding for two heat cycles (no breaks) and then spaying to retire.


Unfortunately, there are risks to early spay/neuter that your vet will not tell you. You need to understand there are pros and cons to early spay/neuter.

I'm not spaying my large breed until she has finished developing (at least the age of 2) and I'm not planning to breed her. 

http://www.naiaonline.org/pdfs/longtermhealtheffectsofspayneuterindogs.pdf




On the negative side, spaying female dogs
• if done before 1 year of age, significantly increases the risk of osteosarcoma (bone cancer); this is a common cancer in larger breeds with a poor prognosis
• increases the risk of splenic hemangiosarcoma by a factor of 2.2 and cardiac hemangiosarcoma by a factor of >5; this is a common cancer and major cause of death in some breeds
• triples the risk of hypothyroidism
• increases the risk of obesity by a factor of 1.6-2, a common health problem in dogs with many associated health problems
• causes urinary “spay incontinence” in 4-20% of female dogs
• increases the risk of persistent or recurring urinary tract infections by a factor of 3-4
• increases the risk of recessed vulva, vaginal dermatitis, and vaginitis, especially for female dogs spayed before puberty
• doubles the small risk (<1% of urinary tract tumors
• increases the risk of orthopedic disorders
• increases the risk of adverse reactions to vaccinations 

GPMCF: Healthier Respect for Ovaries


Surgical Sterilization Could Reduce Rottweiler Lifespan


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## xxshaelxx (Mar 8, 2010)

Celt said:


> regarding socializing a large group of puppies, it is possible if you have enough "volunteers" to help out. I once had a surprise litter of 15 pups. It was definitely an experience (and not one I want to have again) but other than the "hands on" socializing the rest isn't much different. After all, exposing a lot of pups to the "outside" stimulus (noises, surfaces, etc) isn't any more difficult than say 6.


In regards to socialization, I think they were referring to socializing the pups with humans or other animals or whatnot. Yes, it's easy to let four litters of pups run around the yard and get used to all the noises, but when you have four litters, how are you supposed to take the time to give them all individual attention to make sure they're not shy around humans, or aggressive when picked up, or that they're not going to devour the neighbor's cat when it jumps in the yard?

As for breeding back to back to back, I do NOT condone it in any way, shape, or form. I can see breeding back to back ONCE, but after that, you're just putting strain on your dog. For example, my "breeder" bred Ryou's mum back to back for FOUR litters, and she lost the fourth. I don't know how, but I do know that she had the litter announced for several months, and all of a sudden, around the time the pups were supposed to be born, suddenly there was no mention of her having pups at all. This is not the first time it's happened with this breeder either. I've seen her lose AT LEAST two litters and never announce it. And I'm talking about ENTIRE litters, not just one or two pups here and there, born stillborn.


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## BrownieM (Aug 30, 2010)

Yes, xxshaelxx, I am referring to one on one, individual socialization with humans. The reputable breeders I know will take each individual puppy and handle them, practice stacking them, groom their little faces, hold them, etc. It is easy enough to stick 4 litters of puppies outside in the yard and let them run around with each other, etc. But that is not the "socialization" I am referring to.


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## BrownieM (Aug 30, 2010)

Also, *why* breed several litters within a short time frame? I do not think that multiple bitches coming into heat at once is a good enough reason to breed multiple bitches within a short time frame - let's say, a couple of months. Just because a bitch is in heat does not mean she needs to be bred. She will come into heat again and can be bred at that time. This will allow more individualized socialization for the puppies as well.


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## mischiefgrrl (Oct 28, 2010)

RaisingWolves said:


> Unfortunately, there are risks to early spay/neuter that your vet will not tell you. You need to understand there are pros and cons to early spay/neuter.
> 
> I'm not spaying my large breed until she has finished developing (at least the age of 2) and I'm not planning to breed her.


I should actually reiterate that... He said that of small breed dogs. Large breed dogs he recommends spaying after their first heat cycle due the reasons you listed.


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## BrownieM (Aug 30, 2010)

Although, one advantage to breeding an older bitch is that there is a greater chance that any health issues will have presented themselves already. Of course, by older I don't mean old. There is a happy medium that is different for each individual bitch, based on her ability to snap back after pregnancy. At least, this is what I have heard from breeders.


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## naturalfeddogs (Jan 6, 2011)

I say, one breeding per female per year at the very most. Every other year is even better.


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## RaisingWolves (Mar 19, 2011)

mischiefgrrl said:


> I should actually reiterate that... He said that of small breed dogs. Large breed dogs he recommends spaying after their first heat cycle due the reasons you listed.


 No many vets are like this. My vet wanted me to spay my girl at 6 months old. Thankfully, my breeder asked me not to.
I will say that I'm not sure I would spay/neuter a small breed early. My sister neutered her corgi early (4 months old) and he developed incongruent growth plates. I've talked to several breeders who believe you should not spay/neuter until the growth plates have closed.


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## mischiefgrrl (Oct 28, 2010)

BrownieM said:


> Yes, xxshaelxx, I am referring to one on one, individual socialization with humans. The reputable breeders I know will take each individual puppy and handle them, practice stacking them, groom their little faces, hold them, etc. It is easy enough to stick 4 litters of puppies outside in the yard and let them run around with each other, etc. But that is not the "socialization" I am referring to.


Well, I know my pup had one on one socialization before I got her. I got the videos of those activities. For my doxie, I have no reservations with how she was bred or cared for. For a more high maintenance dog such as my Aussies (mine came from rescues) If I were to go to a breeder I would want a breeding program more like the ideal you describe. 

I think you have the wrong impression of the breeder you've been questioning. She doesn't just throw a bunch of puppies in the yard and let them play. They do have their cubbies and their "Palace" but they also get groomed, daily attention and time with humans. This breeder puts a LOT of thought, time, care, research and money into her breeding program.


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## Celt (Dec 27, 2010)

For large groups of pups, you would need a lot of trusted "volunteers" to help with the "hands on" socializing. Which has the benefit of having the pups get use to being handled by various "types" of people. And sticking pups outside to run around isn't enough, someone has to be interacting with them, calling to them to introduce recall, encouraging exploration of "playground" material, etc


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## RaisingWolves (Mar 19, 2011)

I wonder how many litters per female is acceptable? 
I'm asking because I've never given any thought to how many litters a year.... I have no desire to breed!! 
Health screening is at the top of my list of what is important. I also care how the dog is treated. I prefer a breeder who treats their dog as a family member and not living in an outdoor kennel. I would love to find a breeder who raises their litters on a natural diet.


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## xxshaelxx (Mar 8, 2010)

mischiefgrrl said:


> Well, I know my pup had one on one socialization before I got her. I got the videos of those activities. For my doxie, I have no reservations with how she was bred or cared for. For a more high maintenance dog such as my Aussies (mine came from rescues) If I were to go to a breeder I would want a breeding program more like the ideal you describe.
> 
> I think you have the wrong impression of the breeder you've been questioning. She doesn't just throw a bunch of puppies in the yard and let them play. They do have their cubbies and their "Palace" but they also get groomed, daily attention and time with humans. This breeder puts a LOT of thought, time, care, research and money into her breeding program.


Neither of my dogs were socialized well before they came home. The "breeder" I went through had numerous litters at the same time, all left in her garage, and the only time she really went out there was to take pictures, clean up, feed them, and all the usual. However, they are still happy little monsters who get along with anyone. So just because a pup is sweet and wouldn't harm a fly doesn't mean that they got the socialization they SHOULD have had before leaving the breeder.

I like the breeder in question here, I really do, but it doesn't mean I agree with all of her breeding practices. Some of her breeding practices I downright abhor. Just because I'm not a breeder myself doesn't mean I don't hear stories about dogs that are bred over and over and over again with each heat cycle. One article about breeding dogs for every heat cycle for several years and then spaying them is not going to make me believe it's the best thing for the dog.

As for putting all of that thought, time, care, research and money into her breeding program, she also get a LOT of money back for it. Some of her pups are more expensive than all the money I shell out on bills each month.


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## luvMyBRT (Mar 8, 2010)

In the world of Black Russian Terriers good, reputable breeders will usually only have 1-3 litters a year. Some don't have many at all and already have people on waiting lists for litters that haven't even been bred and planned for yet.


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## BrownieM (Aug 30, 2010)

mischiefgrrl said:


> Well, I know my pup had one on one socialization before I got her. I got the videos of those activities. For my doxie, I have no reservations with how she was bred or cared for. For a more high maintenance dog such as my Aussies (mine came from rescues) If I were to go to a breeder I would want a breeding program more like the ideal you describe.
> 
> I think you have the wrong impression of the breeder you've been questioning. She doesn't just throw a bunch of puppies in the yard and let them play. They do have their cubbies and their "Palace" but they also get groomed, daily attention and time with humans. This breeder puts a LOT of thought, time, care, research and money into her breeding program.


I was not the one that suggested anyone throws puppies into a yard to let them play. Someone else used that as a general example and I expanded upon it. I am disagreeing with the practice of breeding five or six litters within a year, let alone a period of two months. There are many reasons why I disagree with this practice, and socialization is just one reason.

The only reason I can see a breeder being so adamant about breeding five bitches within two months (rather than waiting for some of them to come into heat again and breed in the future) is for profit. Stating on one's website that they are working as a "full time" breeder further proves this point as well. As we discussed in a recent thread on the ethics of breeding, breeding for a living is far from ethical.

Also, having "cubbies" in their "Palace" is a glorified way of saying the puppies live in a kennel environment rather than in the home with the family.

Finally, the fact that you mention that a breeder like this for a small breed is fine but you would want a more "ideal" breeder for a breed like an Aussie further proves my point. A high volume breeder whose puppies live in a kennel environment and who breeds bitches who have not proven themselves in any way except for their ability to reproduce is far from a reputable, ethical breeder. I am not saying that this is equivalent of a BYB or Puppy Mill, but is far from meeting my personal expectations of an ethical breeder.


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## KlaMarie (Dec 30, 2010)

For me personally, it all depends. 
If it is a "professional" breeder--as in breeding, selling, working dogs is their livlihood--they probably have the staff and the time to socialize and care for more than 1 litter at a time. But I would only consider this type of breeder if I knew exactly what I was doing when evaluating and picking out a pup, and also had considerable knowledge of the parents and bloodlines. 
I know when I was researching breeders, there were a couple who ran larger kennels, even one that some would consider a broker, that had very good reputations in the working dog community. But being more of a newbie to working GSDs, I needed a breeder who would really work to match a pup to me, since I'm not knowledgeable enough to evaluate a pup on my own. 

But for hobby breeders of large breeds, who might have another job, more than 1 litter on the ground at a time would be too much to me. Depending on the breed, a litter can be 7-10 pups, maybe more. That's a lot of pups to give proper attention/socialization to if you work, even just part time. So the limit for me would be probably 3 litters a year, at most 4, for most breeders. 

And I don't like breeding a bitch in back to back heats either.


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## rannmiller (Jun 27, 2008)

The thing that bothers me more is dogs that are bred too young. I think that 13 months it too young. Period. As far as breeding back to back, it may not be my favorite practice but I suppose in dogs that do well with it, I can see how it might not be so bad. I'm not a huge fan of high volume breeding unless the puppies get the individual attention they deserve.


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## RaisingWolves (Mar 19, 2011)

rannmiller said:


> The thing that bothers me more is dogs that are bred too young. I think that 13 months it too young. Period.


I agree! To me it's like allowing your 15 year old daughter to have a baby.:tsk: Most dogs are not considered mature until 2 years old, and some 3 years old.


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## rannmiller (Jun 27, 2008)

RaisingWolves said:


> I agree! To me it's like allowing your 15 year old daughter to have a baby.:tsk: Most dogs are not considered mature until 2 years old, and some 3 years old.


Yep, that's exactly what I tell everyone I encounter who wants to breed their dogs so young. I also hate when the breeders on this forum don't participate in these breeding ethics threads.


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## RachelsaurusRexU (Sep 4, 2010)

I really wasn't going to get involved in this thread, but then I saw this:

"Lacey


Ready to retire in August 2011!

DOB: July 7th, 2009

Red double dapple wirehair - 8.5 pounds

Simply put - Lacey is going to be a challenge.* I will pick her family VERY carefully!* She needs a retired couple or NO small kids or other dogs or cats - a family that can dedicate themselves to her and be very focused. * She is very shy and skittish - I have worked with her since July 2010 with small successes.* She will eat out of my hand, and when I "corner" her to pick her up (only whe necessary) she will cower but not bite or snarl like she used to.* Once in my hands she is quiet and calm - I can pet her without issues.

I cannot stress the importance of love, understanding and compassion this little lady will need."

I'm not the most well-versed person in breeding ethics, but shouldn't a dog like this probably NOT be bred?


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

RachelsaurusRexU said:


> I really wasn't going to get involved in this thread, but then I saw this:
> 
> "Lacey
> 
> ...


i'm not either, but no.....that dog should not be bred.

i know i'm naive....i just wish breeders would only breed the healthiest, not the prettiest, so i don't have to spend six thousand dollars on my dog's eyes, ears, nose, and throat....


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## RaisingWolves (Mar 19, 2011)

magicre said:


> i know i'm naive....i just wish breeders would only breed the healthiest, not the prettiest, so i don't have to spend six thousand dollars on my dog's eyes, ears, nose, and throat....


I agree!
I don't know a lot about breeding, but doesn't it take at least 2 years to properly health screen? Some genetic disorders do not show up the first year.


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## BrownieM (Aug 30, 2010)

If I was a breeder who was breeding young, unproven bitches at a high volume, some of which are shy and skittish, a trait that should not be reproduced, I would probably avoid speaking in this thread as well. However, it would be informational for everyone to know why a breeder might choose to breed 8 litters in less than 12 months, breed young bitches and why a breeder might feel that a bitch who is shy and skittish should be reproduced. These are clear facts that can be seen by anyone and they do raise red flags to many pet owners who care about ethical breeding practices.


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## RachelsaurusRexU (Sep 4, 2010)

Pair a shy, skittish bitch with the fact that four litters can't possibly be properly socialized (unless you have a staff, I suppose)...sounds like a recipe for puppies with 'issues'. That's really sad. There are tons of wonderful pet dachshunds in shelters and rescues.


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

RaisingWolves said:


> I agree!
> I don't know a lot about breeding, but doesn't it take at least 2 years to properly health screen? Some genetic disorders do not show up the first year.


since we rescue dogs....not one of them has ever come to us healthy....malia had no immune system when she crawled out of the ditch...bubba has had two eye surgeries, nose surgery, etc.....these dogs have cost us the price of a small car.

what pisses me off are breeders who charge 3000 for a dog who is not necessarily healthy...and, yeah, i know there are some things that can't be helped...but i also know some things can be bred out of a dog...

i would, in my lifetime, like to have ONE dog who, from when i get him or her, until the day he or she dies.....is healthy...other than the normal scrapes and worms.....


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## xxshaelxx (Mar 8, 2010)

RachelsaurusRexU said:


> Pair a shy, skittish bitch with the fact that four litters can't possibly be properly socialized (unless you have a staff, I suppose)...sounds like a recipe for puppies with 'issues'. That's really sad. There are tons of wonderful pet dachshunds in shelters and rescues.


You took the words right out of my mouth.

Also, gotta wonder just how she got so skittish in the first place. I mean, obviously puppies need a LOT of socialization, and the only way to REALLY get a skittish and shy dog is to NOT socialize properly (or really heavy abuse, but I would never believe this person capable of something like that). So even if she got this dog from somewhere else and did not raise her herself, that still means she's getting her dogs from places that DO, and that's another concern I would have, because of course where her dogs come from is going to indirectly effect the puppies SHE is putting out.

I would think that with all of her claims of trying to breed for temperament and health, she wouldn't be breeding a dog as skittish as this.


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## BrownieM (Aug 30, 2010)

Well, shyness and skittishness can definitely be a biological thing as well as environmental. I know if you go to some of the wrong Standard Poodle lines you can end up with a skittish, nervous standard poodle which is totally against breed standard. But socialization is SO important as even a temperamentally sound pup could go skittish if it hasn't been properly socialized. I would be concerned about breeding a skittish bitch primarily because of the biological aspect, but also, as you said, xxshaelxx, because of the implications of purchasing from a separate breeder who does not socialize.


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## RawFedDogs (Jun 16, 2008)

I think everyone has had an opportunity to speak their mind on this subject. Let's discuss something positive for a while.


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