# Yikes, Cesar....



## meggels (May 30, 2010)

Dog Whisperer: Showdown with Holly - YouTube



And the same dog at his "rehabilitation center"? 

Cesar's Dog Training Video: Aggression During Feeding - YouTube


I am by no means a dog trainer, but that first video is very startling to me...


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## Deaf Dogs (Apr 10, 2012)

He is an idiot. that is dog abuse plain and simple, only done for "showmanship" That poor, POOR dog!

There are discussions about this vid on several forums. 

I'd like to see anyone justify this!!! The dog was giving warnings and clear signals like crazy, he just kept upping the tension and ignoring her signals until the only thing she could do was bite. That dog showed very good control, imo, and did everything she could to tell him to back away, she was feeling threatened! I feel so sorry for her having to end up with him at his "dog torture center".

Oh and did anyone notice how scared Junior was of him in the second vid? Shameful!!!


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## Tracy (Aug 11, 2012)

My stomach turned when I saw that clip. That poor dog. This is not dog training. There are many, many ways to help a dog overcome food aggression, this is not one of them.


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## Boxers&Pom's Mom (Jan 17, 2011)

Horrible! This guy is old school. Poor dog!


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## nupe (Apr 26, 2011)

Wow @ first video!!


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## DaViking (Sep 27, 2011)

It happened because Cesar is not the best trainer in the world. Not because he is the worst in the world, nor an idiot. He is not the be-all and end-all of trainers, he makes mistakes. Nothing old-school about going in with the hand like that. (actually he goes in with the hand twice, both times bad calls) A hand or a foot is never to be used in a violent and aggressive way like that. He was begging for it imo. Bad call and a big error since it was an action the dog did not understand (other than obvious aggression) Cesar's action did not compute in the dogs mind. And being on the aggressive and protective side what happened happened. From a professional view it's not Cesar's proudest moment but I am sure it makes for good TV and a good teaser.


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## meggels (May 30, 2010)

What about the kicking when the dog was biting him? 

Granted, I can't say I wouldn't do the same if a dog was biting me, but that also seemed like a move that would do harm to the dog (psychologically).

The second video is very interesting to me after watching the first. What is everyone's take on that? Like i said, training and behavior is very much not my forte, I know the basics, so I'm curious to hear more experienced opinions.


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## Maxy24 (Mar 5, 2011)

Because then your dog will definitely trust you around his food bowl :twitch:

Unless the dog is equally terrified of his owners when he goes home I doubt the "training" will stick. And to get your dog that terrified of you you have to risk getting bitten which seems like a bad idea to me. To me food aggression is so simple to solve. Not necessarily easy or fast, but fairly simple. Teach your dog you 1. have no plans of taking his food, and 2. like to come to his bowl and give him more, better food. Thus he has no reason to feel anything but happy at your approach. And you don't have to bleed.


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## GoingPostal (Sep 5, 2011)

Deaf Dogs said:


> Oh and did anyone notice how scared Junior was of him in the second vid? Shameful!!!


I think that right there is very telling, that dog is terrified of him, I couldn't believe when he rolled over in fear just for Cesar acting slightly upset and nonstop lip licking and slinking around him. Honestly who looks at that and sees a good trainer?

Wow I just finished watching the 2nd vid. For stupid, elevated eating is "submissive"? I wonder what my dogs are since they often don't eat out of bowls at all. And the comment about if she attacks him the other dogs will rip her up? OMG. And why get the dogs all riled up at all? Especially in a group with food around.


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## Tracy (Aug 11, 2012)

His books are on all the shelves at a lot of our local pet shops, it's very worrying, it is abuse and it's disgusting. 

If any of my dogs ever rolled over on their side at my approach, I would be seriously worried. None of my dogs are submissive. None of my dogs are dominant(I don't believe there is any such thing). 

Watch clips of him with the volume turned down, all I can see is dogs trying to appease him and avoid conflict.


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## StdPooDad (Mar 16, 2012)

I'm not a "dog trainer" either, but with any dog if they show any resource guarding, I take the resource away for a bit. Toy guarding, food guarding, barking out the window (I shut the blinds)
I mean, it's not rocket science. They can't guard the resource if there is no resource to guard. With mine, I just manage the situation. Seamus is as mellow as the day is long. Teaghan is fine eating with him, but if there are other dogs around, I feed her in a separate room. I mean, is that hard? I handfeed her (not every time, don't have the time for that), but usually once a day or once every several days. 

But confronting and staring down the dog when she's already scared and stressed? Please. 
I only watched the first video, I've got better things to do than take 8 minutes out of my life to watch Cesar.

Joe



meggels said:


> Dog Whisperer: Showdown with Holly - YouTube
> 
> 
> 
> Cesar's Dog Training Video: Aggression During Feeding - YouTube


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## BearMurphy (Feb 29, 2012)

Tracy said:


> If any of my dogs ever rolled over on their side at my approach, I would be seriously worried. None of my dogs are submissive. None of my dogs are dominant(I don't believe there is any such thing).


Maybe a little off topic, but now I'm curious....Are you saying this because of the breeds your own? My lab mix will roll over on his side while wagging his tail when I go up to him and he's chewing on an antler or playing with a toy. I never really take the item away I just rub his chest or belly when he does it. I think a lot of lab owners would say their dog does the same

I do agree that dogs aren't submissive or dominant....I tend to think dogs show both submissive or dominant behavior and their behavior depends on the context of the situation and the other dogs around.


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## Losech (Jul 10, 2012)

Canine Aggression Issues with Jim Crosby: Food Aggression and a Famous Trainer

Pushed Too Far « Wilde About Dogs


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## DaViking (Sep 27, 2011)

Losech said:


> Canine Aggression Issues with Jim Crosby: Food Aggression and a Famous Trainer


Jim Crosby is spot on with his video analysis. Again, this was not FDTs (lol) proudest moment. It is easy to overlook *some* signals in the heat of the moment but there was also clear mistakes being done, both in execution and gameplan.


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## DaneMama (Jun 27, 2008)

"well, I didn't see that coming!" after the dog bites him for the second time.....it's obvious you didn't see it coming since the dog nailed you more than once! 

If he had any kind of real clue or knowledge of canine behavior and language he would never have been bitten in the first place. That dog was throwing plenty of signs to him to back up.


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## bridget246 (Oct 26, 2011)

My only question is why didn't he reward the behavior he wanted. He wanted the dog to be submissive. Maybe I read it wrong but it looked like he had it but he didn't change his body posture. He just kept explaining to the audience about what was going on instead of taking care of the dog.


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## StdPooDad (Mar 16, 2012)

It's TV! Scripted reality show...

At least on Victoria Stillwells show she doesn't talk to the audience right in the middle of a training session, she does that in pull outs..

Joe


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## MollyWoppy (Mar 19, 2010)

That was a bad bite though. He said it's the first time ever he's had to go to hospital for a bite. Just shows how much I know about dogs biting, I thought they'd bite down and let go, but that dog hung on for ages, it must have hurt like hell.


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## Tracy (Aug 11, 2012)

I totally agree that some dogs will roll onto their side, but not like that one did surely. That dog looked absoloutely terrified of his so called pack leader. The dog also had a freeze response after he hit the deck, another clear sign of stress. 
2 of mine will roll over if they want their tummy rubbed and I'm approaching them, so I wasn't very clear in my post. They also offer a tail wag, soft eyes and relaxed body posture. I was saying it in context to the video and that particular dog's very very clear signals in response to Mr. Milan's upset. 
I would say his idea of a relationship with his dogs is somewhat different to most people's. He looks for submission and a "they will do as they're told at whatever cost" attitude. In my opinion the way he does this is by being a bully and causing undue fear and confusion. This does not help an animal respond well when it is acting in an instinctive manner.
I would rather build a relationship with my dogs based on trust and understanding, not fear and confusion. I think this is true of people also.


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## Maxy24 (Mar 5, 2011)

See the thing with dominance based trainers is they don't necessarily think a dog rolling like that is FEAR. It's submission, and in their mind submission is not the same as fear. So I'm sure he's thrilled that his dog flops like that when he gets upset with him. He does not think the dog is terrified of him, the dog is being submissive, and that means respectful.


My uncle got bit by a dog last winter. He said the dog gave no warning so I asked that he describe the event to me. The dog was on a tie out with the owner, who my uncle knows well, sitting outside next to him, my uncle approached the woman and dog and the dog came over. My uncle said the dog approached with his head lowered, ears back, tail wagging low, "good submissive behavior" he said. He said he reached out his hand for the dog to sniff and the dog then rolled over, also good submissive behavior, and uncle went down and started petting the dog's belly and it jumped up and bit his shoulder (thankfully not his neck). In my head the dog is screaming "I'm scared of you leave me alone!", but in the head of my uncle, someone who hits or beats dogs who misbehave, all of that behavior is the dog showing respect, being good and submissive, because that's how his dogs behave towards him. His dogs love him (which is true) so he doesn't think they can also be very scared of him, all of that fearful looking behavior is just respectful behavior, he sees it all the time from these dogs who love him and don't bite him. He doesn't realize his dogs, though very happy to see him, are also begging him to please be nice to them because they know he often isn't. And that his dogs don't bite him because they do care for him and also because they know what will happen to them if they do. The dog that did bite him didn't have any affection for him and hadn't learned that biting gets you a beating, so his terror manifested in a bite.


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## Tracy (Aug 11, 2012)

Yes, your right. It's really sad. 
I quite often have to work with reactive dogs, and although I do listen to the owner, I listen to the dog more. I really don't want to be bitten.


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## DaneMama (Jun 27, 2008)

Maxy24 said:


> See the thing with dominance based trainers is they don't necessarily think a dog rolling like that is FEAR. It's submission, and in their mind submission is not the same as fear. So I'm sure he's thrilled that his dog flops like that when he gets upset with him. He does not think the dog is terrified of him, the dog is being submissive, and that means respectful.
> 
> 
> My uncle got bit by a dog last winter. He said the dog gave no warning so I asked that he describe the event to me. The dog was on a tie out with the owner, who my uncle knows well, sitting outside next to him, my uncle approached the woman and dog and the dog came over. My uncle said the dog approached with his head lowered, ears back, tail wagging low, "good submissive behavior" he said. He said he reached out his hand for the dog to sniff and the dog then rolled over, also good submissive behavior, and uncle went down and started petting the dog's belly and it jumped up and bit his shoulder (thankfully not his neck). In my head the dog is screaming "I'm scared of you leave me alone!", but in the head of my uncle, someone who hits or beats dogs who misbehave, all of that behavior is the dog showing respect, being good and submissive, because that's how his dogs behave towards him. His dogs love him (which is true) so he doesn't think they can also be very scared of him, all of that fearful looking behavior is just respectful behavior, he sees it all the time from these dogs who love him and don't bite him. He doesn't realize his dogs, though very happy to see him, are also begging him to please be nice to them because they know he often isn't. And that his dogs don't bite him because they do care for him and also because they know what will happen to them if they do. The dog that did bite him didn't have any affection for him and hadn't learned that biting gets you a beating, so his terror manifested in a bite.




Some "rollovers" aren't roll overs at all but what is called an "inguinal shot" behavior. This is when a typically shy, insecure dog rolls on their side (not all the way on their back) and kind of twists their body keeping their front legs on the ground (sometimes not all the way left on the ground) while lifting their back leg to expose their lower belly region or the inguinal region. 

This is actually a distance INCREASING signal to another person or dog. It means "I'm insecure about you and I'd really appreciate it if you'd keep your distance" but a lot of people mistake these inguinal shots for a rollover which says "please reach down and pet me". 

The dog who bit your uncle probably gave an inguinal shot, not a true submissive roll over...considering the dog based on his other body language sounds insecure and unsure.


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## Maxy24 (Mar 5, 2011)

I can't say what this dog did, but I've seen a fearful dog roll over all the way before. One of my uncle's dogs hits the deck like that when he gets mad at her, she had urinated all over herself while doing that also. The same dog rolled on her back when my brother reached down to pet her (she does not know this brother very well and he uses some unfortunate body language around dogs), and it did look exactly like what you'd expect from a dog wanting a belly rub, except her tail was plastered to her stomach, which my brother failed to notice. She didn't become aggressive just stayed very stiff and shot back to her feet the moment he stopped touching her and shook off, she was afraid. This dog doesn't ever ask for belly rubs, not her thing. But it was fear and it was not an inguinal shot so I think full roll overs can still be fear. 

For the record the dog that bit my uncle has bit at least three other times (not sure if it was three different people) and is dog aggressive (and his signs are subtle to someone who does not know dogs...mostly stiffness and lip puckering), so it is an extremely insecure dog. 


Tucker, my dog, is actually the first dog I've owned/lived with (which isn't saying a lot lol) that I see do the inguinal shot a lot. After he's played at the park with other dogs for a while and is beat he'll lie down to rest. If, while he's exhausted, a dog comes up to him and is sniffing him he will roll on his side and lift the one back leg, while looking rather dejected.


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## MollyWoppy (Mar 19, 2010)

Mollie does the inguinal shot quite a bit as well. I always wondered what it meant, why she would do that when meeting some strangers or some other dogs. Even to me when I put her leash or collar on. She's not insecure with me, or I thought she wasn't, but dogs don't know how to lie so I'm obviously putting out some type of signal that makes her nervous. That breaks my heart because I've never, ever laid a hand on her, and she hardly ever gets told off.  Yet most times she is a confident, happy, alert dog.


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## Tracy (Aug 11, 2012)

Hey. There's all sorts of reasons Mollie could be doing that when you put on her coller and leash.
I accidently caught Codie's hair in the clip of his harness one time when I was putting it on him. Every time after that when I went to put on that harness he would constantly lip lick and look at me. He does this when he's not sure about something. I know he trusts me, which is why he came to me and let me put the harness over his head, but as soon as he knew it was clip time, he remembered what happened the last time I clipped it on him. I hurt him. I solved the problem by building up his trust again. I practiced putting on his harness using rewards, especially when I was clipping him in. Before long, the clipping of the harness was the most exciting part of the whole walk.
Maybe that's the same with Mollie. I know some dogs are very sensitive around their neck and certain parts of their body, so when we put things on them, it's always good to gauge their reaction to it. As every dog is an individual, it can sometimes be difficult to tell what's going on in their heads.


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## Herzo (Feb 5, 2011)

meggels said:


> What about the kicking when the dog was biting him?
> 
> Granted, I can't say I wouldn't do the same if a dog was biting me, but that also seemed like a move that would do harm to the dog (psychologically).
> 
> The second video is very interesting to me after watching the first. What is everyone's take on that? Like i said, training and behavior is very much not my forte, I know the basics, so I'm curious to hear more experienced opinions.


I didn't see any kicking. I watched it twice, maybe I missed it. Just because you asked.


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## DaneMama (Jun 27, 2008)

MollyWoppy said:


> Mollie does the inguinal shot quite a bit as well. I always wondered what it meant, why she would do that when meeting some strangers or some other dogs. Even to me when I put her leash or collar on. She's not insecure with me, or I thought she wasn't, but dogs don't know how to lie so I'm obviously putting out some type of signal that makes her nervous. That breaks my heart because I've never, ever laid a hand on her, and she hardly ever gets told off.  Yet most times she is a confident, happy, alert dog.


Have you ever tried hand feeding her plenty of really high quality treats while putting her collar/leash on? Maybe try doing that and then immediately removing them. Then repeat several times. Make it a blast if you can, almost like a game. Then on the last one take her out on a fun adventure. 

When do you typically put her "clothes" on? And where do you typically go and what do you do? If its not anything particularly enjoyable she could be linking the leash/collar with negative experiences. 

If you notice her give you the inguinal shot, immediately stop moving toward her, get down to her level and turn your face/head away. Then speak quietly and sweetly and she will probably come right to you.


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## Sprocket (Oct 4, 2011)

Herzo said:


> I didn't see any kicking. I watched it twice, maybe I missed it. Just because you asked.


I saw him kick out at the dog but I don't think he actually made contact. I don't really care about that part. The dog was eating his hand, I can't say I wouldn't have kicked that dog if it were my hand.


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## Maxy24 (Mar 5, 2011)

Yeah he kicks while the dog is biting him, but I would have done the same thing, you do what you have to do when you're getting chewed up.


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## MollyWoppy (Mar 19, 2010)

Thanks Natalie and Tracy. I will do what you suggest. Thinking about it, you are absolutely correct, it does mainly happen when we go for a walk but not when we go out in the car. She does love her walks and runs though, her tails wagging and she's alert and willing to go, so there is something she perceives as negative about the process. I'll work on it and figure it out. Dog's body language continues to fascinate me, there is so much to learn. Appreciate your help.


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## Herzo (Feb 5, 2011)

Yes I agree dogs body language is very interesting. So much I'm sure I will never figure it all out. Love trying though.

Well I watched it again and again and again still not convinced he kicked at the dog, it is a little blurry at about that time don't know if yours is that way or not. Just looks to me like he is trying to keep up with the dog because it is backing up pulling his hand and his steps are not normal. His second step is kind of quick and big and not normal either. I'm sure it hurts and so his body is just reacting.

Yea i might kick as well I don't think at a time like that ones mind has kicked in anyway your body just reacts. See even a Lab can bite.


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## dogdragoness (Sep 9, 2012)

you should have seen the replies to the vid on you tube, it was sad, i replied there & told everyone they were basically terrible & asked what qualifications they had to detirmine a dog worthy of PTS, i have never bothered my dogs when they are eating & yet *gasp* i can walk by them without them so much as bothering to pay attention to me LOL

CM is an idiot... here i thought he had changed & become more positive Im glad he got bit, serves him right & hes lucky it was from such a 'nice' dog, she could have bit him harder but she didnt, kind soul she was.

dominant??? a dog who RG's is insecure not dominant LMBO


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## porchpotty (Aug 10, 2011)

Poor dog! :frown:


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## PiperAndFlynn (Aug 5, 2012)

Cesar spent the summer in Spain educating people about the value of dogs. There is a culture there that uses greyhounds for hunting and if they are done using the dog will do unspeakable things to them. Some of them have been saved and rehabilitated. Thanks to Cesar, many people have opened their eyes regarding having a dog as a member of the family. What did you do this past summer besides critique videos?


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## meggels (May 30, 2010)

PiperAndFlynn said:


> Cesar spent the summer in Spain educating people about the value of dogs. There is a culture there that uses greyhounds for hunting and if they are done using the dog will do unspeakable things to them. Some of them have been saved and rehabilitated. Thanks to Cesar, many people have opened their eyes regarding having a dog as a member of the family. What did you do this past summer besides critique videos?


I would love to travel to Spain and educate people about dogs. But alas, my checkbook doesn't allow it.


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