# Allergies?



## Amys4304 (Nov 17, 2012)

Hi everyone. I've been feeding my dog the raw diet for 6 months. I feed her a half chicken thigh in the am and at night I give her ground meat. The ground meat is a mixture of three different meats: beef, chicken, tripe or lamb, turkey, and chicken. I order this from a co-op in my neighborhood. She is allergic to something but I don't know which meat it is. I heard from a vet that they are actually allergic to the protein in the meat. I just ordered 30 days worth of the ground meat. Is there a meat that dogs tend to be allergic to. I don't know how to begin to figure out which meat or meats are causing her allergy. Any suggestions?
Thanks,
Amy


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## Candyd (Apr 11, 2013)

Hi, 
Allergies are always triggered by an antigen, which is a specific protein. Unfortunately, most allergic dogs have multiple allergies, so it's not always easy to know. Chicken and beef are the most common allergens from meat, but because they're the most used meats (and there are a lot of allergens which don't come from meat). Any protein can be responsible, but "meat allergy" is a legend, the truth is several types of meat trigger an allergic reaction in these cases. The only way to see if there is a meat in particular which is responsible is to start an eviction diet, by feeding only with one type of meat that your dog never tried before, during 12 weeks, to see if symptoms stop with time, and if it works, slowly reintroducing possible allergens one by one. Once there is an allergic reaction, the allergen is identified, and it can be eliminated from your dog's diet for life, but sometimes it's necessary to eliminate several allergens.
Good luck !


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

we did what candyd suggested and discovered it was not the protein, but what the protein was fed.

in our case, it was the soy and corn in the feed for chickens.

we stopped giving him chicken and turkey and the allergic reactions stopped.

what are the symptoms your dog is having?


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## brindle (Mar 14, 2013)

magicre said:


> we did what candyd suggested and discovered it was not the protein, but what the protein was fed.
> 
> in our case, it was the soy and corn in the feed for chickens.
> 
> ...


.......................


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## brindle (Mar 14, 2013)

I have a question which might ruffle a few feathers (ill risk it -- if your dog is allergic to proteins and a raw diet is based on variety... what would you do..? Example: a dog is allergic to animals that have been fed corn or soy (which I am skeptical actually occurs) then you have to buy organic or farm raised meat, correct? Wouldn't that be a hefty price? 
Or a dog is allergic to all poultry and beef. How could you feed enough variety without going broke from buying unique protein sources? 
I have heard claims that the raw diet "cures all allergy ailments" .... I suppose this isn't true?? So dogs being allergic to proteins IS possibly a much higher likelihood then a dog being allergic to grains..?
Wouldn't the numerous posts in the raw section about allergies to raw proteins also prove that allergies may be linked to genetics far more then we have ever claimed to know?
Just thinking out loud...


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## Tobi (Mar 18, 2011)

brindle said:


> I have a question which might ruffle a few feathers (ill risk it -- if your dog is allergic to proteins and a raw diet is based on variety... what would you do..? Example: a dog is allergic to animals that have been fed corn or soy (which I am skeptical actually occurs) then you have to buy organic or farm raised meat, correct? Wouldn't that be a hefty price?
> Or a dog is allergic to all poultry and beef. How could you feed enough variety without going broke from buying unique protein sources?
> I have heard claims that the raw diet "cures all allergy ailments" .... I suppose this isn't true?? So dogs being allergic to proteins IS possibly a much higher likelihood then a dog being allergic to grains..?
> Wouldn't the numerous posts in the raw section about allergies to raw proteins also prove that allergies may be linked to genetics far more then we have ever claimed to know?
> Just thinking out loud...


Just a few things, What you've heard about curing all allergy ailments, is an obvious generalization, it has helped immensely just in my own animal. You must not investigate massive farms such as case/perdue/tyson the list goes on... do you think they feed them good food, or expensive foods in those containers they call housing? where 3-4 chickens share about 2-3 sq/ft of ground, and do nothing all day but eat, defecate, and breathe in the dust from the ground all day... they feed them what will come cheapest, and that is corn and soy, gmo corn and soy in all likelihood. I've visited case farms about 8 miles from here... corn and soy all the way. Farmers can't make any money if they spend it all on feed.
Feeding high quality proteins from quality sources that aren't nutritionally deficient would cut out a lot of the variety needed, for instance, i feed venison from wild sources year round, my dog is not lacking anything and that is THE staple of his diet. He gets quality chicken, and other proteins when i can find it for what i'm willing to pay for it. 
Claims are claims, each individual varies greatly as with anything, a little common sense in deciphering what may be true and what isn't is needed. Do a study on it and see what is true, my dog had itchy flaky skin on high quality grain inclusive, and grain free kibbles up till he was six months and we switched him to a raw diet, he now has a healthy smooth coat, moist healthy skin. I'll attribute that to raw feeding, whether it was an allergen or not... i couldn't tell you, there are too many ingredients in dog food to readily decipher. Genetics play a large part in everything as we all know, it's not anything new, allergies, heart conditions, deformations, gait...


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## Amys4304 (Nov 17, 2012)

Thank you both. She is constantly nipping at her paws. And you made a good point about the chicken. I recently switched brands and I believe it has got worse since.


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## Amys4304 (Nov 17, 2012)

Tobi, I have to admit I do feed my dog Tyson/Perdue. Where do you suggest I get better options? Thanks


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## kathylcsw (Jul 31, 2011)

Are you checking the sodium content? If is over 100mg per serving it is too much. That could cause allergy like symptoms.


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

amy is there any way you can just feed chicken for a week? and then post the reaction?

it is rare for dogs to be allergic to the protein...generally if there is an allergy, it's either the feed or the environment. 

ask your lady from where the chickens and turkeys come...

what choices do you have for pork?


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## Tobi (Mar 18, 2011)

Amys4304 said:


> Tobi, I have to admit I do feed my dog Tyson/Perdue. Where do you suggest I get better options? Thanks


Umm mostly farmers markets, local farm scraps, or sickly chickens lol... I feed some Perdue but not as a staple, I'm not vilifying it by any means and grocery store meat is honestly just fine but it may just require some supplementation and there is the chance what they are fed could affect them, raw in any sources is IMO a better choice for a carnivore.


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## SuperPug (Mar 5, 2013)

Nipping at the paws sounds more like an environmental allergen. 
Do you live in an apartment?
If not, if your grass treated with anything?
Do you take your pup other places?


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## Tobi (Mar 18, 2011)

SuperPug said:


> Nipping at the paws sounds more like an environmental allergen.
> Do you live in an apartment?
> If not, if your grass treated with anything?
> Do you take your pup other places?


Tobi chews his feet in spring and summer I feel it's the grass because its all gone fall and winter so I agree it could be something environmental as well.


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## brindle (Mar 14, 2013)

Tobi said:


> Just a few things, What you've heard about curing all allergy ailments, is an obvious generalization, it has helped immensely just in my own animal. You must not investigate massive farms such as case/perdue/tyson the list goes on... do you think they feed them good food, or expensive foods in those containers they call housing? where 3-4 chickens share about 2-3 sq/ft of ground, and do nothing all day but eat, defecate, and breathe in the dust from the ground all day... they feed them what will come cheapest, and that is corn and soy, gmo corn and soy in all likelihood. I've visited case farms about 8 miles from here... corn and soy all the way. Farmers can't make any money if they spend it all on feed.
> Feeding high quality proteins from quality sources that aren't nutritionally deficient would cut out a lot of the variety needed, for instance, i feed venison from wild sources year round, my dog is not lacking anything and that is THE staple of his diet. He gets quality chicken, and other proteins when i can find it for what i'm willing to pay for it.
> Claims are claims, each individual varies greatly as with anything, a little common sense in deciphering what may be true and what isn't is needed. Do a study on it and see what is true, my dog had itchy flaky skin on high quality grain inclusive, and grain free kibbles up till he was six months and we switched him to a raw diet, he now has a healthy smooth coat, moist healthy skin. I'll attribute that to raw feeding, whether it was an allergen or not... i couldn't tell you, there are too many ingredients in dog food to readily decipher. Genetics play a large part in everything as we all know, it's not anything new, allergies, heart conditions, deformations, gait...


Luckily I haven't had to experience allergies with my girl. I thought she may have been sensitive to chicken but it seems to have been the weather causing her dry skin...
I think a LOT of allergies are caused by neutering/spaying as well as over vaccinating. My current dog has only had her puppy vaccines and has not (will not) be spayed, she doesn't seem to have any issues. 
I neutered my Dachshund when he was 5.5 months and he developed HORRIBLE allergies! He had only puppy vaccines as well. Switching him over to California Natural did the trick back then. 
It is a claim that MANY raw feeder's have made. I have met hundreds that have said that the PMR diet will cure a dogs allergies. Only for the dogs to not have made any improvements... that is why I wondered.


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## Candyd (Apr 11, 2013)

Amys4304 said:


> Thank you both. She is constantly nipping at her paws. And you made a good point about the chicken. I recently switched brands and I believe it has got worse since.


I agree with others, an environmental allergy (to dust mites or freshly cropped grass) is more likely, and even more likely as we're in Spring. Food allergic dogs often have a red belly with hair loss, red armpits and scratch themselves all the time.



brindle said:


> I have a question which might ruffle a few feathers (ill risk it -- if your dog is allergic to proteins and a raw diet is based on variety... what would you do..? Example: a dog is allergic to animals that have been fed corn or soy (which I am skeptical actually occurs) then you have to buy organic or farm raised meat, correct? Wouldn't that be a hefty price?
> Or a dog is allergic to all poultry and beef. How could you feed enough variety without going broke from buying unique protein sources?
> I have heard claims that the raw diet "cures all allergy ailments" .... I suppose this isn't true?? So dogs being allergic to proteins IS possibly a much higher likelihood then a dog being allergic to grains..?
> Wouldn't the numerous posts in the raw section about allergies to raw proteins also prove that allergies may be linked to genetics far more then we have ever claimed to know?
> Just thinking out loud...


I think it's possible to trigger an allergic reaction with chickens and turkeys fed with corn and soy, if the dog is allergic to corn and soy. There are always traces of proteins in the chicken's or the turkey's stomach and tripe, and traces are enough for a reaction.
I agree that buying exotic protein sources can be extremely expensive, but sometimes there is no other choice, as even "hypoallergenic kibble" are still full of allergens (especially chicken and soy), and that's not what I call a healthy diet at all. And in many industrial foods (including frozen raw foods), there is a high risk of cross-contamination.

About the most common food allergens :


> Dogs have been reported to have food allergies to beef, dairy products, wheat, lamb, egg, chicken and soy (Roudebush et al., 2000). Food allergies to rice have been reported (Scott et al., 2001).


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## Roo (Oct 17, 2010)

brindle said:


> It is a claim that MANY raw feeder's have made. I have met hundreds that have said that the PMR diet will cure a dogs allergies. Only for the dogs to not have made any improvements... that is why I wondered.


Hundreds huh? You must know a lot of raw feeders personally, I've known some to make claims (often times the more new/inexperienced raw feeders), but not that many. True dog food allergies are actually rare, dog food sensitivities (which are different/with different symptoms) and or environmental allergies are far more common. Dog food sensitivities can sometimes clear up when feeding the raw form of a food because the natural enzymes make the proteins in the food easier to digest, as cooking changes the structure (size) of the molecules, also raw diets tend not to include all the ingredients, additives etc. that you find in commercially processed dog foods, so less for the dog to react to. Environmental allergies, aren't related to food, however *some raw feeders (like a few on here) have reported experiencing some improvement when switching to raw, possibly from a healthier immune system, but it's unknown.


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## Amys4304 (Nov 17, 2012)

Magicre, I can try feeding chicken only for one week. I can feed her anything, but I get overwhelmed with what part of the animal I should feed and where I should purchase. I live in Philadelphia so there are meat markets and grocery stores. I get my ground meat from a co op and find it very convenient because its 80%meat, 10% bone, 10% organ. She also gets a chicken thigh for the benefits of chewing the bone.


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## Candyd (Apr 11, 2013)

If there is a food allergy, and if an eviction diet starts, symptoms don't decrease before at least 2 or 3 weeks, and a lot of allergic dogs continue to have symptoms during 6 weeks or more.


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

Amys4304 said:


> Magicre, I can try feeding chicken only for one week. I can feed her anything, but I get overwhelmed with what part of the animal I should feed and where I should purchase. I live in Philadelphia so there are meat markets and grocery stores. I get my ground meat from a co op and find it very convenient because its 80%meat, 10% bone, 10% organ. She also gets a chicken thigh for the benefits of chewing the bone.


i used to live in philly...long time ago...

i think, if your dog is chewing paws.....the others are probably right...it could also be an environmental allergy.....we wash my pug's feet down with diluted apple cider vinegar (bragg's) and that seems to help him.....sometimes i mix it with colloidal silver and he ingests coconut oil daily...which also helps.

maybe try that first before doing an elimination since candy is right......about her times.


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## brindle (Mar 14, 2013)

Candyd said:


> I agree with others, an environmental allergy (to dust mites or freshly cropped grass) is more likely, and even more likely as we're in Spring. Food allergic dogs often have a red belly with hair loss, red armpits and scratch themselves all the time.
> 
> 
> I think it's possible to trigger an allergic reaction with chickens and turkeys fed with corn and soy, if the dog is allergic to corn and soy. There are always traces of proteins in the chicken's or the turkey's stomach and tripe, and traces are enough for a reaction.
> ...


There have to have been tests done to ascertain that soy/corn was the specific allergy though. And who has actually gone for this type of testing? I suppose that is my primary question.


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## brindle (Mar 14, 2013)

Roo said:


> Hundreds huh? You must know a lot of raw feeders personally, I've known some to make claims (often times the more new/inexperienced raw feeders), but not that many. True dog food allergies are actually rare, dog food sensitivities (which are different/with different symptoms) and or environmental allergies are far more common. Dog food sensitivities can sometimes clear up when feeding the raw form of a food because the natural enzymes make the proteins in the food easier to digest, as cooking changes the structure (size) of the molecules, also raw diets tend not to include all the ingredients, additives etc. that you find in commercially processed dog foods, so less for the dog to react to. Environmental allergies, aren't related to food, however *some raw feeders (like a few on here) have reported experiencing some improvement when switching to raw, possibly from a healthier immune system, but it's unknown.


Yes I run in a lot of raw feeding dog circles. As well as many personal friends/breeders that I have been in contact with. 
Probably close to 200 to be more specific. 
I find it probable that many issues can be resolved with feeding whole foods. I'm not contradicting that fact. 
I'm just more curious if these people ever got proof as to what their dogs were SPECIFICALLY allergic to as opposed to using raw as a band aid.


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## SmoothWire (Apr 18, 2013)

magicre said:


> amy is there any way you can just feed chicken for a week? and then post the reaction?
> 
> it is rare for dogs to be allergic to the protein...generally if there is an allergy, it's either the feed or the environment.
> 
> ...


Your statement is blatantly false, yes allergies are 90% of the time environmental.

However, when it comes to the 10%, 80% are from common animal proteins, Beef, Egg, Chicken, Dairy. Grain proteins are statistically insignifcant.

Has nothing to do with what the animals are fed. The allergy mechanism is well understood and it is the protein in the flesh, just like with bee stings. Would you suggest people that are allergic to bee stings might not be if the bees pollinated certain flowers? Or peanuts, would peanuts grown organically or hydroponically be less like likely to insite a reaction? Clearly not, because the cause is the protein molecule. I have a friend that is allergic to shrimp, and it doesn't matter where the shrimp comes from or eats because all shrimp have a certain protein molecule he cannot tolerate.


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## Candyd (Apr 11, 2013)

brindle said:


> There have to have been tests done to ascertain that soy/corn was the specific allergy though. And who has actually gone for this type of testing? I suppose that is my primary question.


Prick tests work only for environmental skin allergies. Only an eviction diet can show a food allergy, and even in humans, it's sometimes the same, as we don't have antibody tests for all allergens.



SmoothWire said:


> Your statement is blatantly false, yes allergies are 90% of the time environmental.
> 
> However, when it comes to the 10%, 80% are from common animal proteins, Beef, Egg, Chicken, Dairy. Grain proteins are statistically insignifcant.
> 
> Has nothing to do with what the animals are fed. The allergy mechanism is well understood and it is the protein in the flesh, just like with bee stings. Would you suggest people that are allergic to bee stings might not be if the be pollinated certain flowers?


Wheat is the third allergen, just after beef and dairy products. I wouldn't call it insignificant. There are some dogs who have celiac disease too, and have to avoid not only wheat, but barley and rye as well. Soy isn't rare too, and I've known two dogs who were allergic to rice, and one who might be allergic to carrots (yes, carrots)...
I think, about what the animals are fed, there are two possibilities to trigger a reaction :
- cross-contamination when the dog eats stomach or tripe ;
- industrial meat, organic meat and game meat are very different in their composition, and even if it can't be responsible for any allergy, it can trigger a food intolerance (especially some meats which have a very high fat content). I think it's the case for most "corn allergies" too, which are much more probably a corn intolerance.


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## Roo (Oct 17, 2010)

brindle said:


> I'm just more curious if these people ever got proof as to what their dogs were SPECIFICALLY allergic to as opposed to using raw as a band aid.


I'm not sure how feeding a diet of fresh whole foods could be considered a "band aide" approach, eating a healthier minimally processed diet is just simply that. I don't think most people who choose to eat a healthier diet consider it a "band aid approach", I would think they would just consider it a lifestyle approach.


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## brindle (Mar 14, 2013)

Candyd said:


> Prick tests work only for environmental skin allergies. Only an eviction diet can show a food allergy, and even in humans, it's sometimes the same, as we don't have antibody tests for all allergens.
> 
> 
> Wheat is the third allergen, just after beef and dairy products. I wouldn't call it insignificant. There are some dogs who have celiac disease too, and have to avoid not only wheat, but barley and rye as well. Soy isn't rare too, and I've known two dogs who were allergic to rice, and one who might be allergic to carrots (yes, carrots)...
> ...


I have heard that there are prick tests for food. Maybe not in your area? Your vets don't offer it? 
I think corn "allergies" are a bit of hype myself. I think that many dog food companies have made pretty big bucks off of that phrase.


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## brindle (Mar 14, 2013)

Roo said:


> I'm not sure how feeding a diet of fresh whole foods could be considered a "band aide" approach, eating a healthier minimally processed diet is just simply that. I don't think most people who choose to eat a healthier diet consider it a "band aid approach", I would think they would just consider it a lifestyle approach.


That all depends on what you consider your dog. A dog or a fur child. I consider my dog a dog and I feed her like one. 
I'm not concerned with the processing of dog food. Many are. It's all in how you perceive dog ownership and I'm just not on the fur mommy bandwagon. 
I agree that whole food is ideal. I also think that many people don't know how to feed it properly as to maintain proper nutrition (I've seen this plenty). People tend to try to play vet and it backfires. 
I tried it with a canine nutritionist on hand (a good friend) and it just didn't work for me BUT that's just me. 
I haven't seen anything to prove to me that raw has cured food allergies. If you start eliminating certain proteins because of allergies then their diet can become REALLY restricted and the dog may not be getting balanced nutrition. That should be more of a concern then whether they are on processed food or not.


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## SuperPug (Mar 5, 2013)

If it has nothing to do with what the protein is fed, then please tell me how a dog retracts differently to 2 different sets of chicken? Chicken 1 from Perdu(who feeds lowest quality feed) and Chicken 2 from a local chicken grower(who feeds a high quality feed.) He reacted differently because Chicken 1 is fed a low quality diet and is kept is HORRIBLE conditions while Chicken 2 is fed a high quality diet and free roams the property which is kept up daily.

Protein in chicken(or any animal) does NOT change from chicken to chicken.


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## brindle (Mar 14, 2013)

SuperPug said:


> If it has nothing to do with what the protein is fed, then please tell me how a dog retracts differently to 2 different sets of chicken? Chicken 1 from Perdu(who feeds lowest quality feed) and Chicken 2 from a local chicken grower(who feeds a high quality feed.) He reacted differently because Chicken 1 is fed a low quality diet and is kept is HORRIBLE conditions while Chicken 2 is fed a high quality diet and free roams the property which is kept up daily.
> 
> Protein in chicken(or any animal) does NOT change from chicken to chicken.


Perhaps it is psychosomatic?
Maybe one perceives this issue but has no tests done. Then they believe there is a "chicken allergy" but it has not been proven. They then feed an organic chicken and there is less/no reaction to it when in reality what the animal is allergic to might have incidentally been removed from the environment. 
Example: "I think my dog has a chicken allergy" (has no tests done), bottle of Febreeze runs out and is no longer being used while ALSO beginning organic chicken... well it APPEARS that is the chicken allergy disappearing when in actuality it is the Febreeze (sp?), causing the allergy, that has been removed... you see?
People may do this all of the time unknowingly. I did it myself. It turned out to be a simple dry weather/dry skin issue. Since it has been warming (and humidifying) up, her issues have been subsiding.


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## SmoothWire (Apr 18, 2013)

Superpug,

You spent more money on local organically raised chicken, so of course there is no reaction. You believe that to support your decision to spend more money. It is the same psychology with supplements and alternative treatments.

That is why proper structure to tests is important and perception should be avoided.

When data on allergies is actually looked at you see how rare they are and what proteins cause them in dogs that are genetically predisposed.


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## Tobi (Mar 18, 2011)

brindle said:


> That all depends on what you consider your dog. A dog or a fur child. I consider my dog a dog and I feed her like one.
> I'm not concerned with the processing of dog food. Many are. It's all in how you perceive dog ownership and I'm just not on the fur mommy bandwagon.
> I agree that whole food is ideal. I also think that many people don't know how to feed it properly as to maintain proper nutrition (I've seen this plenty). People tend to try to play vet and it backfires.
> I tried it with a canine nutritionist on hand (a good friend) and it just didn't work for me BUT that's just me.
> I haven't seen anything to prove to me that raw has cured food allergies. If you start eliminating certain proteins because of allergies then their diet can become REALLY restricted and the dog may not be getting balanced nutrition. That should be more of a concern then whether they are on processed food or not.


So to feed something properly you have to be on a bandwagon? So that means that if you have children you will feed them super processed nutritionless food because you would need to be on some kind of healthy yuppy bandwagon right? I'm just trying to understand the thought process behind such a statement. Every time there is a thread in the raw section that you can't quite comprehend you jump in and derail it with nonsense, if you don't understand it, it's okay to start your own thread instead of derailing one after the other. 
It's also weird how you're acting as if raw feeding is some kind of cult that needs to be swayed back to kibble... feeding a dog isn't rocket science, take a step back and quit trying to disprove something you can't disprove, or prove... it's like an atheist saying god doesn't exist, and a christian saying he does... neither will ever be proved wrong or right.:wacko:


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## Candyd (Apr 11, 2013)

brindle said:


> I have heard that there are prick tests for food. Maybe not in your area? Your vets don't offer it?
> I think corn "allergies" are a bit of hype myself. I think that many dog food companies have made pretty big bucks off of that phrase.


My dog's first vet offered prick tests to do to my dog, but he told me he was sceptical about them because for food allergies with gastrointestinal symptoms, those tests are unreliable (or anyway, they were when I saw him, in 2005). He is specialized in dermatology and knows food allergies very well.
I think that restricting a dog's diet should be done with caution too. I own a forum with a lot of westie owners, and as westies often have atopic dermatitis, as soon as their dog has symptoms, owners often think beef is responsible, so they eliminate beef, and sometimes even all red meats from their dog's diet. I disagree with this attitude. But I disagree with owners who feed their dog only with chicken too, not because of an elimination diet, but because they're used to give chicken only and they think it's a balanced diet. There are a lot of raw feeders who use only chicken, where I live. And it's not only unbalanced, but single protein diets sensitize dogs. About grains, I avoid them, but not because of allergies (except for wheat), but because they're not a part of a balanced diet. But about meats, I think no meat should be excluded if no food allergy is proven (by prick tests, by antibody test or by elimination diet). Even if it's much more expensive, I think diversity is absolutely necessary.


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## SmoothWire (Apr 18, 2013)

Tobi said:


> So to feed something properly you have to be on a bandwagon? So that means that if you have children you will feed them super processed nutritionless food because you would need to be on some kind of healthy yuppy bandwagon right? I'm just trying to understand the thought process behind such a statement. Every time there is a thread in the raw section that you can't quite comprehend you jump in and derail it with nonsense, if you don't understand it, it's okay to start your own thread instead of derailing one after the other.
> It's also weird how you're acting as if raw feeding is some kind of cult that needs to be swayed back to kibble... feeding a dog isn't rocket science, take a step back and quit trying to disprove something you can't disprove, or prove... it's like an atheist saying god doesn't exist, and a christian saying he does... neither will ever be proved wrong or right.:wacko:


**Content removed for promoting kibble in the raw section. The rules go both ways, folks.*

When it comes to allergies in the end it is a faulty immune system, not the food's fault whether its dry or raw.


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## Roo (Oct 17, 2010)

brindle said:


> That all depends on what you consider your dog. A dog or a fur child. I consider my dog a dog and I feed her like one.
> I'm not concerned with the processing of dog food. Many are. It's all in how you perceive dog ownership and I'm just not on the fur mommy bandwagon.
> I agree that whole food is ideal. I also think that many people don't know how to feed it properly as to maintain proper nutrition (I've seen this plenty). People tend to try to play vet and it backfires.
> I tried it with a canine nutritionist on hand (a good friend) and it just didn't work for me BUT that's just me.
> I haven't seen anything to prove to me that raw has cured food allergies. If you start eliminating certain proteins because of allergies then their diet can become REALLY restricted and the dog may not be getting balanced nutrition. That should be more of a concern then whether they are on processed food or not.


What does how you consider your dog, ownership wise, have to do with diet choice? It sounds like you're suggesting that dogs somehow wouldn't benefit from a whole foods diet vs a processed diet, I would think ANY living thing could benefit. You don't have to consider your dog a "fur child" to feed them a healthy diet of fresh foods, that's not a prerequisite and is stereotypical to assume so.

I agree research needs to go into feeding a homemade diet raw or cooked, but certainly it's not impossible to figure out nutrient wise, even with conditions like allergies, clearly there is evidence on this forum of dogs that are able to maintain proper nutrition and health with feeding homemade type of diets.


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## brindle (Mar 14, 2013)

Tobi said:


> So to feed something properly you have to be on a bandwagon? So that means that if you have children you will feed them super processed nutritionless food because you would need to be on some kind of healthy yuppy bandwagon right? I'm just trying to understand the thought process behind such a statement. Every time there is a thread in the raw section that you can't quite comprehend you jump in and derail it with nonsense, if you don't understand it, it's okay to start your own thread instead of derailing one after the other.
> It's also weird how you're acting as if raw feeding is some kind of cult that needs to be swayed back to kibble... feeding a dog isn't rocket science, take a step back and quit trying to disprove something you can't disprove, or prove... it's like an atheist saying god doesn't exist, and a christian saying he does... neither will ever be proved wrong or right.:wacko:


I'm asking genuine, well intentioned questions.. if you don't like them- don't respond. They have been consistently about the topic at hand.
My kids are my kids. There is literally no comparison between my children and my dog. If there was, my husband would probably have me institutionalized lol. 
My kids do eat organic/little processed/almost zero sugars (aside from a treat once in a while). They know where meat comes from and have seen chickens butchered. They help garden when it is fall. Seriously. No comparison.
If you look at the definition of cult, you will see that some PMR feeders fit very well within the definition...


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## Candyd (Apr 11, 2013)

SmoothWire, what do you think about this study which was published by the Dr Lippert ?


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## SuperPug (Mar 5, 2013)

Firstly, I never said it was my dog. 
Secondly, it seems that you'll just give any answer to support your beliefs. Protein does not change form from chicken to chicken. Nor does it change form from cow to cow, dog to dog, sheep to sheep etc etc.


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## SmoothWire (Apr 18, 2013)

Candyd said:


> SmoothWire, what do you think about this study which was published by the Dr Lippert ?


I am not familiar with him other than he is like Dr. Phil and he wrote a book.


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## brindle (Mar 14, 2013)

Roo said:


> What does how you consider your dog, ownership wise, have to do with diet choice? It sounds like you're suggesting that dogs somehow wouldn't benefit from a whole foods diet vs a processed diet, I would think ANY living thing could benefit. You don't have to consider your dog a "fur child" to feed them a healthy diet of fresh foods, that's not prerequisite and stereotypical to assume so.
> 
> I agree research needs to go into feeding a homemade diet raw or cooked, but certainly it's not impossible to figure out nutrient wise, even with conditions like allergies, clearly there is evidence on this forum of dogs that are able to maintain proper nutrition and health with feeding homemade type of diets.


Yes I believe when you put that much time/effort/cash into creating a diet for a dog, you are no longer just a dog owner. You become a fur parent. That's only my opinion... sue me. 
Have you ever met all of the dogs (or any) off of this forum? How do you KNOW they are doing well? You are making assumptions and trusting people you don't know. 
I grew up thinking Dog Chow was quality, and when my dogs got it, they were lucky!
If my dog has a place to sleep, clean water and a good kibble + (the main ingredient of a happy dog, that has NOTHING to do with diet) much mental/physical stimulation-- I've got a happy and healthy dog on my hands!
I just can't feed my dog to that level of decadence when I know what is going on in the world. I just can't morally bring myself to do it. Yes, that affects my decision... (Yes I volunteer, yes I am involved within the community, yes I do donate to charity).


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## SmoothWire (Apr 18, 2013)

SuperPug said:


> Firstly, I never said it was my dog.
> Secondly, it seems that you'll just give any answer to support your beliefs. Protein does not change form from chicken to chicken. Nor does it change form from cow to cow, dog to dog, sheep to sheep etc etc.


The protein does not change. The fat levels can be different and the flavor certainly is different but the core reason for the reaction remains the same.

Someone deathly allergic to something will take no comfort in the fact the animal ate organic feed versus GMO soy or corn.


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## brindle (Mar 14, 2013)

SuperPug said:


> Firstly, I never said it was my dog.
> Secondly, it seems that you'll just give any answer to support your beliefs. Protein does not change form from chicken to chicken. Nor does it change form from cow to cow, dog to dog, sheep to sheep etc etc.


You are doing the same thing though. Some people think ALLERGY when really, the chemicals you use on your lawn may really be the issue. Or the pollution. Or the water. Or the genetics. Or the spaying/neutering too early. Or the over vaccinating. Or numerous other factors we cannot control easily. 
These "allergies" may be something you can't even change... everyone hates not being in control.


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## Candyd (Apr 11, 2013)

SmoothWire said:


> I am not familiar with him other than he is like Dr. Phil and he wrote a book.


Not really. His study has shown that dogs who were fed with a homemade diet lived, on average, 3 years longer than dogs who were fed with kibble. 
I don't want to create an argument, I just want to say that people who have chosen to give a raw diet or a meat-based homemade diet have a good reason, and many dogs who started this type of diet are now healthier than they were before. Not all, but many.


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## Roo (Oct 17, 2010)

brindle said:


> Yes I believe when you put that much time/effort/cash into creating a diet for a dog, you are no longer just a dog owner. You become a fur parent. That's only my opinion... sue me.
> Have you ever met all of the dogs (or any) off of this forum? How do you KNOW they are doing well? You are making assumptions and trusting people you don't know.
> I grew up thinking Dog Chow was quality, and when my dogs got it, they were lucky!
> If my dog has a place to sleep, clean water and a good kibble + (the main ingredient of a happy dog, that has NOTHING to do with diet) much mental/physical stimulation-- I've got a happy and healthy dog on my hands!


Yeah that's clearly your opinion, and yours alone. I think you didn't read what I wrote carefully enough, I said there was clearly evidence on this forum, you know pictures, shared stories etc., that's evidence, you can choose to judge it how you like. I'm sure you could start a new thread and ask others, or go through the raw success stories. 

A dog with CRF would be considered healthy going off your definition of a "healthy" dog (to be fed, have water, a place to sleep, and mental/physical stimulation etc.).


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## FBarnes (Feb 17, 2013)

brindle said:


> I just can't feed my dog to that level of decadence when I know what is going on in the world. I just can't morally bring myself to do it. Yes, that affects my decision... (Yes I volunteer, yes I am involved within the community, yes I do donate to charity).


And yet you would feed kibble where animals that go into that food live in a torturous condition from cradle to grave. I guess that's because you don't have to think about where THAT meat comes from. And I keep wondering why, if a raw feeder goes into the dry section and starts asking why people bother to feed kibble at all there is a big stink, but when the opposite happens it's just "asking questions."

To the OP - my vet told me when we started a raw diet to give only one protein for 12 weeks. And then if nothing changed, switch to another protein. That was kinda long, especially since his allergies cleared up right away, but basically that's what we did. It turns out he was really allergic to the cooked chicken in kibble but not at all allergic to raw chicken, unenhanced. My dog's food allergies exhibited in ear infections and hot spots, which have disappeared never to return. Like some other people here, I wonder if your dog's allergies might be environmental.


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## brindle (Mar 14, 2013)

Candyd said:


> Not really. His study has shown that dogs who were fed with a homemade diet lived, on average, 3 years longer than dogs who were fed with kibble.
> I don't want to create an argument, I just want to say that people who have chosen to give a raw diet or a meat-based homemade diet have a good reason, and many dogs who started this type of diet are now healthier than they were before. Not all, but many.


There are many good dogs out there. When one dies there is another to love. Sounds callous but it is true. 
All of my dogs live well into their teens on poor quality kibble. They were all healthy and they were all well loved. 
Maybe if people had more awareness of byb's and "quality" breeders creating grotesque monstrosities that we call "dogs" with all of their exaggerated features and health issues that are well documented (yet continued to pass down). Perhaps a larger gene pool. Less vaccines. Spaying/neutering at a later date or not at all (for super vigilant owners). 
This would be far more effective then feeding raw.


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## brindle (Mar 14, 2013)

FBarnes said:


> And yet you would feed kibble where animals that go into that food live in a torturous condition from cradle to grave. I guess that's because you don't have to think about where THAT meat comes from. And I keep wondering why, if a raw feeder goes into the dry section and starts asking why people bother to feed kibble at all there is a big stink, but when the opposite happens it's just "asking questions."
> 
> To the OP - my vet told me when we started a raw diet to give only one protein for 12 weeks. And then if nothing changed, switch to another protein. That was kinda long, especially since his allergies cleared up right away, but basically that's what we did. It turns out he was really allergic to the cooked chicken in kibble but not at all allergic to raw chicken, unenhanced. My dog's food allergies exhibited in ear infections and hot spots, which have disappeared never to return. Like some other people here, I wonder if your dog's allergies might be environmental.


I feel for the animals that are not treated well. Their death is their relief. 
I was not referring to animals in that statement. I was referring to people. Sometimes some dog lovers forget that there as also human beings on this planet... *sigh


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## brindle (Mar 14, 2013)

Roo said:


> Yeah that's clearly your opinion, and yours alone. I think you didn't read what I wrote carefully enough, I said there was clearly evidence on this forum, you know pictures, shared stories etc., that's evidence, you can choose to judge it how you like. I'm sure you could start a new thread and ask others, or go through the raw success stories.
> 
> A dog with CRF would be considered healthy going off your definition of a "healthy" dog (to be fed, have water, a place to sleep, and mental/physical stimulation etc.).


I could send you pictures and bloodwork stating my dog is fed raw. You would believe it too because she looks excellent. 
Then I could turn around and send you a picture of a dog that is fed raw but looks crappy and say it is fed kibble, which you would also believe. 
I think that people tend to prolong an animals life for their own selfish reasons. Back in the day it would be called a "cull", which is why animals were healthier then they are today. NOT because of diet.


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## CorgiPaws (Mar 31, 2009)

I'm confused. 
Believing that any creature- human or not- deserves a diet of REAL food somehow means I don't view my dogs as dogs? 

But, the mere fact that they ARE dogs is the whole reason I feed them the way I do.....
What does how much it costs have anything to do with it? At what price does the diet turn you from a dog owner to a "furmommy"?

I'm not a parent. I'm pregnant now with my first, and I completely agree that some people are downright unreasonable with not seeing any difference between human children and dogs. It kind of creeps me out, honestly. But I don't have to view dogs and kids as "equals" to think that BOTH deserve a healthy diet and good quality of life. I provide the absolute best I can in my situation. For me, that's raw food for all the dogs, and will be fresh, local, organic foods for my kids. If I CAN afford it, I see no reason not to do it. 


And also, a reminder, folks: We respond to reported threads when raw feeders "push raw" (see also: mention raw) in the kibble section, and therefore, it goes both ways. If you're promoting kibble, there's a section for that, and it's not this one.


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## brindle (Mar 14, 2013)

CorgiPaws said:


> I'm confused.
> Believing that any creature- human or not- deserves a diet of REAL food somehow means I don't view my dogs as dogs?
> 
> But, the mere fact that they ARE dogs is the whole reason I feed them the way I do.....
> ...


I'm not attempting to promote anything. 
I'm taking the emotions out of the diet and asking serious questions. 
You feed the way you feed. I feed what I feed (which includes some raw). I'm ok with it. 
Just asking some questions the I thought were pertinent to the OP's original question.
Edit: there is "real" food in kibble. It is just extruded. The ingredients themselves are not man made although the process of extrusion is. I think people forget this fact.


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## FBarnes (Feb 17, 2013)

brindle said:


> I feel for the animals that are not treated well. Their death is their relief.
> I was not referring to animals in that statement. I was referring to people. Sometimes some dog lovers forget that there as also human beings on this planet... *sigh


Their death is their relief? That's a good thing?

I don't forget there are people in this world too. But I also know where those animals came from who go into dog food, and into our grocery stores. We are supposed to be good custodians of ALL living things. If the argument is that we are taking food out of someone's mouth by feeding it to our dogs, then I would say I already pay 70% of my income to taxes that go to humans, and if I want to spend the little I'm left on my dogs then it's no one's business but mine. I will feed them as nature intended with not a whit of guilt. We, after all, have only had kibble for 70 or so years. Why is it the be-all and end-all of dog food to put low quality meat into a vat and cook it to death, shape it into a cute little uniform size, and say it's the best thing for our dogs?


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## CorgiPaws (Mar 31, 2009)

brindle said:


> I'm not attempting to promote anything.
> I'm taking the emotions out of the diet and asking serious questions.
> You feed the way you feed. I feed what I feed (which includes some raw). I'm ok with it.
> Just asking some questions the I thought were pertinent to the OP's original question.
> Edit: there is "real" food in kibble. It is just extruded. The ingredients themselves are not man made although the process of extrusion is. I think people forget this fact.


I guess I could more accurately describe what I'm referring to as fresh, whole foods. You know... chicken that LOOKS, feels, and smells like chicken. Not a little unrecognizable crunchy nugget.


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## Candyd (Apr 11, 2013)

"Real food" in kibble, it depends what the definition of "real food" is. Because for dogs, grains and potatoes aren't supposed to be food. Meat is food, but look how many brands of kibble contain more meat than starch : almost none. Some brands are almost vegan, and that's not what I call an acceptable food.


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## brindle (Mar 14, 2013)

CorgiPaws said:


> I guess I could more accurately describe what I'm referring to as fresh, whole foods. You know... chicken that LOOKS, feels, and smells like chicken. Not a little unrecognizable crunchy nugget.


My dog LOVES unrecognizable crunchy nuggets LOL! 
The ingredients were once whole and recognizable and then they were mixed together. 
If you took a chicken quarter/liver and gizzard and put it into a blender and gave it to your dog, you would feel badly about this?


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## brindle (Mar 14, 2013)

Candyd said:


> "Real food" in kibble, it depends what the definition of "real food" is. Because for dogs, grains and potatoes aren't supposed to be food. Meat is food, but look how many brands of kibble contain more meat than starch. Some brands are almost vegan food.


The type of food I feed currently (horizon legacy) is 80 percent meat. Which leaves 20% as veggies/fruits etc. 
That would be fairly typical of a wolf in the wild, would it not? 
Yes there are some crap quality foods! I agree!


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## CorgiPaws (Mar 31, 2009)

brindle said:


> My dog LOVES unrecognizable crunchy nuggets LOL!


My corgi, given the chance, will eat horsesh*t. He loves it. 


Comparing a ground, raw piece of meat to kibble is seriously reaching, but nice try.


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## brindle (Mar 14, 2013)

FBarnes said:


> Their death is their relief? That's a good thing?
> 
> I don't forget there are people in this world too. But I also know where those animals came from who go into dog food, and into our grocery stores. We are supposed to be good custodians of ALL living things. If the argument is that we are taking food out of someone's mouth by feeding it to our dogs, then I would say I already pay 70% of my income to taxes that go to humans, and if I want to spend the little I'm left on my dogs then it's no one's business but mine. I will feed them as nature intended with not a whit of guilt. We, after all, have only had kibble for 70 or so years. Why is it the be-all and end-all of dog food to put low quality meat into a vat and cook it to death, shape it into a cute little uniform size, and say it's the best thing for our dogs?


That's what YOU believe. You also come from the mindset that dogs are obligate carnivores. They are not.


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## brindle (Mar 14, 2013)

CorgiPaws said:


> My corgi, given the chance, will eat horsesh*t. He loves it.
> 
> 
> Comparing a ground, raw piece of meat to kibble is seriously reaching, but nice try.


My point is (I suppose I MUST reiterate)- kibble was once whole. It is definitely different but you can't belittle to the level of horse shit. Nice try


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## Candyd (Apr 11, 2013)

80% of meat, that's if you count water. Remove water, and you'll see the vegetable % is much higher than the % on the label. There is about 30% of starch in Horizon Legacy. Not really a wolf's diet. Actually, many wolves would get sick with 30% of starch.


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## FBarnes (Feb 17, 2013)

brindle said:


> The type of food I feed currently (horizon legacy) is 80 percent meat. Which leaves 20% as veggies/fruits etc.
> That would be fairly typical of a wolf in the wild, would it not?
> Yes there are some crap quality foods! I agree!


Not really, because meats cooked and raw are two different things. And if the meat in your high quality kibble were high quality meat, it would cost alot more than it does. How much meat fresh, pound-wise, goes into a 50 bag of dog food? Does anyone really know? According to you, it would be 40 pounds of meat cooked down. Considering that meat reduces in size by 80% when cooked, that's about 200 pounds of fresh meat. At even $1 a pound, that would be $200 worth of meat.

For meat that's $3 a pound, that would be $600 worth of fresh meat. What meat IS in there anyway?


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## brindle (Mar 14, 2013)

FBarnes said:


> Not really, because meats cooked and raw are two different things. And if the meat in your high quality kibble were high quality meat, it would cost alot more than it does. How much meat fresh, pound-wise, goes into a 50 bag of dog food? Does anyone really know? According to you, it would be 40 pounds of meat cooked down. Considering that meat reduces in size by 80% when cooked, that's about 200 pounds of fresh meat. At even $1 a pound, that would be $200 worth of meat.
> 
> For meat that's $3 a pound, that would be $600 worth of fresh meat. What meat IS in there anyway?


I'm not concerned as I've made clear. You are, which is why you feed raw. Wait though... do you feed all organic or farm raised?
Do you think wolves consider the quality of their meat as they are taking the sickest/weakest/oldest animal to the ground? No. They would happily chomp down on the Lyme disease/tumour ridden/flea bitten old thing.


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## brindle (Mar 14, 2013)

Candyd said:


> 80% of meat, that's if you count water. Remove water, and you'll see the vegetable % is much higher than the % on the label. There is about 30% of starch in Horizon Legacy. Not really a wolf's diet. Actually, many wolves would get sick with 30% of starch.


Luckily dogs aren't wolves


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## Candyd (Apr 11, 2013)

Yes, but my dog gets sick with 30% of starch, and he's far from being the only one.
And you said, about Horizon : "That would be fairly typical of a wolf in the wild, would it not?" And no, it isn't.


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## FBarnes (Feb 17, 2013)

My dogs eat all kinds of meat - including rotten. I just try to make sure it wasn't raised in horrible conditions. My dogs also eat meat that humans don't. They eat ALL of a chicken, not just the good parts. They can eat the weakest animal as long as it wasn't raised without a beak so it couldn't peck at its neighbors. I don't like feeding my dogs animals raised cruelly, fed food they were never meant to eat, and killed in abominable conditions.

Such as the meat that goes into kibble.


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## CorgiPaws (Mar 31, 2009)

brindle said:


> My point is (I suppose I MUST reiterate)- kibble was once whole. It is definitely different but you can't belittle to the level of horse shit. Nice try


My point was, just because a creature enjoys something, doesn't make it an ideal component to the diet. 

I don't have some weird agenda against kibble, nor do I look down on anyone who feeds it. Should raw feeding ever not fit into my budget, I could feed kibble and not feel the slightest bit guilty. If that was the best I could do, I'd do it proudly! I just resent the idea that anyone who feeds raw has some unrealistic view that dogs= children. They are not. I LOVE my dogs, they bring more joy into my life than anything else ever has. 
My dogs are dogs. They are well-loved, well-cared for dogs. 

And, like ANY creature in my care, they will get the best _my situation allows._


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## brindle (Mar 14, 2013)

Candyd said:


> Yes, but my dog gets sick with 30% of starch, and he's far from being the only one.


As I said before. Genetics. 
Way back when a dog that got sick over something so slight would have been put down. Dogs USED TO have purpose, if they couldn't fulfill that purpose, it was a dud and it was culled.


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## FBarnes (Feb 17, 2013)

Candyd said:


> 80% of meat, that's if you count water. Remove water, and you'll see the vegetable % is much higher than the % on the label. There is about 30% of starch in Horizon Legacy. Not really a wolf's diet. Actually, many wolves would get sick with 30% of starch.


There were several studies done on Estonian wolves that showed no plant matter in the oldest and strongest wolves stomachs, and maybe 3% berries etc. in the omega wolves. I think that should tell us whether they would like 30% plant matter.


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## brindle (Mar 14, 2013)

CorgiPaws said:


> My point was, just because a creature enjoys something, doesn't make it an ideal component to the diet.
> 
> I don't have some weird agenda against kibble, nor do I look down on anyone who feeds it. Should raw feeding ever not fit into my budget, I could feed kibble and not feel the slightest bit guilty. If that was the best I could do, I'd do it proudly! I just resent the idea that anyone who feeds raw has some unrealistic view that dogs= children. They are not. I LOVE my dogs, they bring more joy into my life than anything else ever has.
> My dogs are dogs. They are well-loved, well-cared for dogs.
> ...


I have the same wants for my dog. Raw doesn't facilitate that. It doesn't mean I look down on people who feed it.
OP- what tests did you have done (by a licensed vet) to prove that your dog had allergies?


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## Candyd (Apr 11, 2013)

brindle said:


> As I said before. Genetics.
> Way back when a dog that got sick over something so slight would have been put down. Dogs USED TO have purpose, if they couldn't fulfill that purpose, it was a dud and it was culled.


Yes, but were our ancestors right ? I don't think so.


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## CorgiPaws (Mar 31, 2009)

brindle said:


> I have the same wants for my dog. Raw doesn't facilitate that. It doesn't mean I look down on people who feed it.


It also gives you no right to insult and make blanket statements about those who do.


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## brindle (Mar 14, 2013)

CorgiPaws said:


> It also gives you no right to insult and make blanket statements about those who do.


I thought fur mommy was something to be proud of in today's society?


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## brindle (Mar 14, 2013)

Candyd said:


> Yes, but were our ancestors right ? I don't think so.


Well seeing the rise in allergies, genetic issues, behavioural issues.... I would say they had it right. 
Then, my dog is a fearful animal. She is a genetic misfire too. I wouldn't put her down for it.


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## Candyd (Apr 11, 2013)

Why do you think giving the best to our dogs means we consider our dogs as human beings ?


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## brindle (Mar 14, 2013)

FBarnes said:


> There were several studies done on Estonian wolves that showed no plant matter in the oldest and strongest wolves stomachs, and maybe 3% berries etc. in the omega wolves. I think that should tell us whether they would like 30% plant matter.


Luckily I don't own a Estonian wolf. Maybe a relative of the maned wolf? Hmmm.


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## FBarnes (Feb 17, 2013)

brindle said:


> I thought fur mommy was something to be proud of in today's society?


Oh please. I hate that term. I know my dogs are dogs. Just because I choose to feed them the way they were meant to eat doesn't make me part of a cult. It makes me a dog owner who thinks kiibble is poor quality meat, made from mistreated animals, fashioned with fillers to make them stick together and the general public brainwashed into thinking they put that stuff in there because it's an appropriate diet. Dogs have zero carb requirements. That doesn't mean 20%, or 30%, or 1% grains, peas, alfalfa sprouts or whatever else they are adding these days as people get smart about all the crap corn they've been adding for years.


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## FBarnes (Feb 17, 2013)

brindle said:


> Luckily I don't own a Estonian wolf. Maybe a relative of the maned wolf? Hmmm.


Lucky for the wolf. You'd feed it unnaturally and kill it when it got sick.


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## brindle (Mar 14, 2013)

Candyd said:


> Why do you think giving the best to our dogs means we consider our dogs as human beings ?


Your definition of the best and others are different.


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## Candyd (Apr 11, 2013)

brindle said:


> Well seeing the rise in allergies, genetic issues, behavioural issues.... I would say they had it right.
> Then, my dog is a fearful animal. She is a genetic misfire too. I wouldn't put her down for it.


Sorry, but no, there is no justification in killing an animal just because this animal is sick. Dogs have the right to live, as much as human beings.


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## brindle (Mar 14, 2013)

FBarnes said:


> Lucky for the wolf. You'd feed it unnaturally and kill it when it got sick.


I am being insulting?


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## FBarnes (Feb 17, 2013)

Candyd said:


> Why do you think giving the best to our dogs means we consider our dogs as human beings ?


Because it's an inane insult to imply people that feed their dogs non-kibble are nuts. 

And again I wonder - why is this allowed over here? It wouldn't be allowed for a second in the kibble section.


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## brindle (Mar 14, 2013)

Candyd said:


> Sorry, but no, there is no justification in killing an animal just because this animal is sick. Dogs have the right to live, as much as human beings.


^^ that is why I believe that you feel you believe your dog is human. You rate them on the same level. 
No dogs do not have the right to live "as much as human beings".


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## FBarnes (Feb 17, 2013)

brindle said:


> I am being insulting?


I'm only repeating your stated opinions. There will always be another dog to love... the sick are culled.. Kibble is fine and dandy.. etc etc etc.


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## Candyd (Apr 11, 2013)

brindle said:


> ^^ that is why I believe that you feel you believe your dog is human. You rate them on the same level.
> No dogs do not have the right to live "as much as human beings".


Oh, so you believe you're superior then ?


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## brindle (Mar 14, 2013)

Look. I am not attempting to be insulting although my bluntness can sure sound like it. 
I respect that you all feed raw and believe ardently in that way of feeding. It's not something I believe in but different opinions are the spice if life. 
I'm sorry that you seem to think that there is one uniform way of thinking. One for the raw section and one for the kibble section but that is just now how life works. 
I was questioning one thing. How they even know the dog has allergies to ANYTHING. Did they have tests done to come to this conclusion or was it just a fly by idea. 
I also don't promote animal cruelty or killing but I do NOT rate animals the same as human beings. Obviously. I also disagree with homosexuality, abortion, organized religion and feminism. Oh well. That's is who *I* am. 
I was asking genuine questions. Sorry that they didn't conform to your standards. Sorry to have rocked the raw boat.


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## FBarnes (Feb 17, 2013)

Personally, I don't think of my dogs as equal. I have a human child and if I had to choose one over the other there wouldn't even be a choice, no matter how much I love my dogs. But, as someone who has taken on the responsibility of another life I do feel it's my duty to give my dogs the best life I can give them, to feed, train, exercise, and love them in the way that they deserve. And that does not include giving them cooked meat and grains in a bag.


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## brindle (Mar 14, 2013)

Candyd said:


> Oh, so you believe you're superior then ?


I'll put it this way. If you were drowning in a lake and so was my dog, I would save you. I wish I could rely on humanity like that.


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## brindle (Mar 14, 2013)

FBarnes said:


> Personally, I don't think of my dogs as equal. I have a human child and if I had to choose one over the other there wouldn't even be a choice, no matter how much I love my dogs. But, as someone who has taken on the responsibility of another life I do feel it's my duty to give my dogs the best life I can give them, to feed, train, exercise, and love them in the way that they deserve. And that does not include giving them cooked meat and grains in a bag.


I feel the exact same way. Although my "best" differs from yours. 
I apologize for sounding no brash but that is who I am. On a forum and in life... I am not trying to insult.
I just tend to be the goat in the sheep herd lol


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## CorgiPaws (Mar 31, 2009)

Let's all take a break.


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