# New to raw feeding and this site - will be long!



## brandydan (Jul 21, 2015)

Hi everyone - I am very new here, and before I registered I spent several days going through even very old posts on this site, and threads about raw feeding on other forums...

A little intro - I have two older dogs; a 10YO sheltie and a 9YO scotty, both could stand to lose a few pounds (like me...:smile. My sheltie suffers/tolerates a collapsed trachea, made worse by his weight. Though he has a full coat, it always looks disheveled and his skin always has a waxy coating. When they were babies I started them on Science Diet, then switched to Blue Buffalo since that was the only food that seemed to clear up my now-deceased Golden Retriever's funky skin. My scotty, other than being overweight, has been perfectly healthy. 

We also have 5 cats ranging from a 17YO down to a 2YO, and the 'middle' cat has IBD...hence my looking at raw food diets for him. 

I started transitioning my cats a few days ago with pre-made raw food (I'm now at work, so the brand...can't remember it right now), along with raw chicken. As expected, the cats are taking their sweet time switching over, and I partly blame my husband who is the crazy cat man and still sneaks kibble and Friskies wet....

Anyway, back to dogs. When I picked up the raw cat food, I picked up some pre-made raw food patties for dogs, and they took to it no problem (not a surprise - if we don't put up babygates, they raid the litterboxes like a snack bar). I want to switch them over to a full raw diet since we are also going to get a Shiloh puppy in a few weeks and I want to have all the dogs on raw at the same time.

Thing is, I completely overwhelmed myself with all the literature about raw, except for actual recipes. We live in south Texas, so the local markets - which consist of a chain called HEB, the ever-present walmart, and a localish chain called La Michoacana - do have loads of chicken, on occasion I can get chicken gizzards, beef tripe, and maybe on occasion other meats like beef cheek meat (barbacoa<but this can be expensive). There are pretty much NO places where I can get anything that looks like organ meats (heart and liver? nope. Lamb? Nope). No coops either.

I think I can still prepare a fairly decent diet for all using chicken, some beef, maybe even fish like catfish and tilapia (sometimes the local markets have a bony fish called gar), eggs...and since neither of my dogs even bother to go after chew bones, I would use a grinder to grind down entire chicken carcasses for calcium (boy, I hope I'm getting the terminology right). I will also use ground up veggies, using supplements as well. I've been looking at several decently-reviewed food grinders since we know we'll need it. I know it doesn't have to be complicated, but I want to be sure I'm doing everything right.

But will this be enough? Exactly how much of a variety will our two older dogs (and a soon-to-be-here growing large-breed puppy) need? Because of the extra needs of a cat's diet I'll keep using the pre-made frozen raw diet for cats, but want to take care of the dogs' diets on my own.

Any suggestions, advice, pointers, etc, will be greatly appreciated.

brandydan


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## InkedMarie (Sep 9, 2011)

I can't be much help because I buy ground raw but I wanted to say that once you have tried different proteins (ideally, keep them on one protein for 3-4 weeks before switching), red meat should be fed more than poultry: beef, venison, goat, etc. That is one reason I feed ground, I can buy all kinds of proteins. I feed turkey, venison, beef, rabbit, goat, pork, duck...


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## brandydan (Jul 21, 2015)

I can find ground beef, sometimes way too much, the grizzlier (less lean meat, more fat...). But even pork is hard to get that isn't too expensive. Sad place I live in, where pork is more expensive than beef. But as for the rest, never see venison (and we don't have friends who could spare us a haunch or two), let alone goat, rabbit...though I was only half-joking when I told my husband I was seriously considering getting frozen feeder mice that the local guys buy for their pet boas (again, very odd place I live).

I will add the ground beef, then start looking at fish for a third protein...thanks for the input


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## InkedMarie (Sep 9, 2011)

brandydan said:


> I can find ground beef, sometimes way too much, the grizzlier (less lean meat, more fat...). But even pork is hard to get that isn't too expensive. Sad place I live in, where pork is more expensive than beef. But as for the rest, never see venison (and we don't have friends who could spare us a haunch or two), let alone goat, rabbit...though I was only half-joking when I told my husband I was seriously considering getting frozen feeder mice that the local guys buy for their pet boas (again, very odd place I live).
> 
> I will add the ground beef, then start looking at fish for a third protein...thanks for the input



Are you planning to do straight raw? If yes, you need to have bone that they injest in their diet. You can't just feedground meat from the store, you need bone.


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## brandydan (Jul 21, 2015)

I plan to use a grinder, add the entire chicken. I know I need to still figure out the percentage of bone (calcium) to meat, but my sheltie has pretty much no teeth left (started losing them when he was around 2) and my scotty isn't a bone gnawer (is that even a word?). Frankly, I'd rather be the one grinding everything into ground meat so this way I can control what I give them. And with every batch (I'm going to start small), I'll add in the entire egg.

For something that is supposed to be so easy (feeding them the way they did before the kibble companies decided corn was a food group for dogs), I'm trying my best to keep it simple. 

And again, I really appreciate everyone's imput.


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## Herzo (Feb 5, 2011)

Your still going to need liver and heart I would say. Can you get chicken livers? I would think you could at least find it sometimes. Is the tripe bleached? If it is it is no good to feed the dogs. I am a wuss and am just not going to work with a giant cow belly so I buy it in cans, yes, yes I know. I also feed my dogs canned salmon. I kind of like it so when I forget to take something out of the freezer I feed one of those.


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## [email protected] (Oct 9, 2014)

Hi Brandy

There is a good raw food provider in Texas named Texas Tripe at Texas Tripe.com He does routes around Texas. I run a group in Colorado who gets 2-3 thousand lbs a month from him and it is good food. It can be good to not feed those patties because they have a lot of carbs in them. Some veggies are fine but they are often 30% or more. It also costs about half to feed directly from a vendor. He has grass fed beef and lots of good chicken too. start slow. Look for a PDF book on line called Prey model raw feeding for beginners. It is free and very well done. I do feed some grinds and such not strictly whole meat because I get a lot of good food ground up including green tripe, beef and venison that usually only come that way. I also thing rawfeeding on yahoo is a good group to learn how to feed some. They don't like grinds and such but I just read things to learn. Remember 10% bone, 10 % organs and the rest meat and tripe and you will do well. Also start slowly with some chicken because older dogs can't handle too much variety at first. I think that chicken breasts are a good place to start with the bone in place. Tex Tripe will get you some breasts with bone in cheaper then a lot of stores if you buy some bulk. Or you can cut up some chickens and save the rest for your family. Stay away from most supermarket chicken they will add salt to it. It's called enhanced. I buy at sprouts here but you may have them or a chain like them to buy unenhanced chicken. 

Terri


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## LearnWithLevi (Aug 18, 2015)

There is a formula that I use to calculate a balanced raw diet. It's a bit complicated. If you want your dogs to lose weight, you want to feed 2% of their IDEAL weight- 80% of which is muscle meat, 10% edible bone, 5% liver and 5% other secreting organ. You want to incorporate as many different proteins as possible for lots of variety. Here is the formula using a 50 lbs dog for example:

0.02 x 50 = 1 lb of food per day
1 x 30 = 30 lbs of food per month
0.8 x 30 = 24 lbs should be muscle meat
0.1 x 30 = 3 lbs should be edible bone
0.05 x 30 = 1.5 lbs should be liver & 1.5 lbs should be other secreting organ

whole chickens are around 32% bone so 0.32X = 3. 
X = 9.4
Therefore you need 9.4 lbs of whole chickens which would contain 3 lbs of edible bone. All your bone needs are taken care of. 9.4 - 3 = 6.4. That 9.4 lbs of chicken is made up of 3 lbs of bone and 6.4 lbs of meat. You needed 24 lbs of meat so 24 - 6.4 = 17.6 lbs of additional BONELESS MEAT.
That 17.6 lbs should be made up of as much variety as possible, but mostly red meat. Beef, pork, lamb, goat, venison, some turkey is okay. Whatever you can get. I would try to avoid ground meats as they are usually much lower in quality.
Add in you 1.5 lbs each of liver and organ and you are now set for the month. you can either put this all through the grinder or feed it in whole chunks, but either way you have now prepped 30 days worth of meals.

To summarize, an overweight dog aiming to be about 50 lbs should get the following monthly:
9.4 lbs of whole chicken
17.6 lbs of assorted boneless (red) meats
1.5 lbs of liver
1.5 lbs of organ

Fed 1 pound per day.

I hope this helps and isn't too confusing for you. It's how I prep my dogs meals. Use chicken to account for the bone and then buy a variety of boneless red meats and organs. Good luck!


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## naturalfeddogs (Jan 6, 2011)

brandydan said:


> I plan to use a grinder, add the entire chicken. I know I need to still figure out the percentage of bone (calcium) to meat, but my sheltie has pretty much no teeth left (started losing them when he was around 2) and my scotty isn't a bone gnawer (is that even a word?). Frankly, I'd rather be the one grinding everything into ground meat so this way I can control what I give them. And with every batch (I'm going to start small), I'll add in the entire egg.
> 
> For something that is supposed to be so easy (feeding them the way they did before the kibble companies decided corn was a food group for dogs), I'm trying my best to keep it simple.
> 
> And again, I really appreciate everyone's imput.


Ground or not, you will need to slowly add in other proteins besides chicken, and you will need to add organs as well. Those are a must. You will need a variety of bones as well, so you would need to be able to grind them as well. 

Don't worry so much about figuring out ratios and such. That easily gets too complicated. Just feed all the variety that you can. Mostly meat, some bone and some organ.


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## naturalfeddogs (Jan 6, 2011)

LearnWithLevi said:


> There is a formula that I use to calculate a balanced raw diet. It's a bit complicated. If you want your dogs to lose weight, you want to feed 2% of their IDEAL weight- 80% of which is muscle meat, 10% edible bone, 5% liver and 5% other secreting organ. You want to incorporate as many different proteins as possible for lots of variety. Here is the formula using a 50 lbs dog for example:
> 
> 0.02 x 50 = 1 lb of food per day
> 1 x 30 = 30 lbs of food per month
> ...


That is entirely too complicated. No need for such elaborate calculating. Reading all of that will scare new raw feeders off quick. 

Your last statement isn't exactly correct. More variety of bone other than chicken should be fed. Red meats also have bone that can and should be fed as well. Red meats don't have to be fed only boneless.


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## MollyWoppy (Mar 19, 2010)

Yeah, good idea, but way, way too complicated. I'd have given up the first day if I had to use my brain like that. My dog has, roughly, 20% bone, 70% meat and 5% organs, which changes on a daily basis depending on her poops. Dogs must have organs, which, you can buy beef liver, turkey livers and chicken livers at Walmart. Have a look in the frozen meat section. Also talk to the butchers in the other supermarkets, bet they can get kidneys and other items such as pig tails, turkey necks, that type of thing for you. Failing that, try Raw Feeding Miami, they can get all types of organs and ship fairly cheaply as well. I have friends in Texas who buy from them. Feeder mice and chickens are absolutely perfect meals for cats btw, naturally balanced. Variety is important.


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## Bugsmom (Aug 30, 2015)

I'm confused... I have a Pom that should weigh 8 pounds.. So 8 x2%= 0.16 so that's like 1 & 1/2 oz per day? So if a tenth of a pound is 1.6 oz-that can't be right. I'm really confused. I'm switching over from Dinovites raw recipe so I was feeding him a 1/4 c each morning & evening... I'm really confused. Lol. Help.


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## InkedMarie (Sep 9, 2011)

Bugsmom said:


> I'm confused... I have a Pom that should weigh 8 pounds.. So 8 x2%= 0.16 so that's like 1 & 1/2 oz per day? So if a tenth of a pound is 1.6 oz-that can't be right. I'm really confused. I'm switching over from Dinovites raw recipe so I was feeding him a 1/4 c each morning & evening... I'm really confused. Lol. Help.


go to Hare-Today dotcom. There is a feeding calculator in there.
FWIW, my 33 & 29lb dogs both eat approx 8oz per day.


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## MollyWoppy (Mar 19, 2010)

8lbs = 2.56oz per day.


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## Bugsmom (Aug 30, 2015)

Thanks!!!!! Now if I can figure out how to help his horrific constant itching...........


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## MollyWoppy (Mar 19, 2010)

Is he getting enough fat. It could pay to add a tiny bit of a good Sardine or Salmon oil to his meals. Sometimes a teeny bit of coconut oil can help too. Also eggs. I generally alternate between all three.


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## brandydan (Jul 21, 2015)

Hi everyone, just an update, then I'll start other threads for the inevitable "Am I Still Doing This Right?" questions I'm bound to have. 

I have been using whole chickens plus literal slabs of chicken breasts when they go on sale, chicken liver (I added too much to the last bunch and my IBD kitty had the runs so tempering that a bit), chicken hearts and gizzards. What I thought was tripe is actually 'tripas', or cattle intestine, and that gummed up my grinder but good. I'm staying away from the 'real' tripe since it's bleached. 

My two youngest LOVE the ground food, my IBD-kitty also, the fourth one is halfway there to accepting whole raw, the fifth cat still stubborn, but he will eat it if I mix it with 'better' (as in stupidly expensive) canned cat food. I also add a handful of Primal Raw frozen 'pellets' as a supplement (but not sure if it's enough), and an entire egg.

We added our Shiloh puppy last week (one little 15# fuzzy ball!) and he's eating the ground as well as gnawing like a champ on chicken wings (I think he's still too young, at 8.5 weeks, for larger bones), and will slurp up chunks of chicken. BUT, after two days of normal poo, he now has the runs. I just prepared a new batch of food, so maybe I added a little too much Missing Link dog supplement. 

I have been scouring the local markets for anything else with regards to organ or muscle as I want to add other proteins, but outside of an occasional beef kidney, I can't find anything and there are no raw food co-ops in the area. Ordering large amounts (because the shipping would cost more than the 50# or so I want to order at a time) is not yet feasible as our garage freezer is large, but not large enough. 

The alternative/health pet food store which has the Primal Raw pellets I use suggested adding Missing Link to the food. Way back when I used to show and breed Maine **** cats, I used to add that to their food and their coats were perfect. I never really used it for my dogs, but added some (I think I over-added to their batch). 

I cannot find - within a reasonable cost - what would be next on the 'going up the protein ladder' list; turkey, even though the holidays will soon be here. Again, duck, any kind of game, venison, bison, even decent beef is hard to find (and I'm in TEXAS! Wasn't cattle this state's first cash crop?). I picked up some large chunks of pork, and was wondering if I cut away the bones, would this protein be too harsh of a change for my IBD-cat and the puppy if I mix it with the chicken?


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## [email protected] (Oct 9, 2014)

*bone etc*

You want to be careful on feeding bone. Some dogs need a little more then 10% Some a little less. 20% is considered too much. You can end up with kidney stones and other issues from too much. 

Recently I have been buying more boneless meat myself so that my dogs are not getting too much. 

Terri


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## [email protected] (Oct 9, 2014)

*small dogs and amounts*

Small dogs don't need a lot it is true. I don't know what you have been feeding. 

My 20 lb fox terrier mix is very active and uses 3 to 4% a day. The formula is really 1 1/2% for an overweight dog to 4%. I would not feed less then 2% in most cases. Smaller dogs can be more active. One of the reasons they live so long. Across the living room for them takes more energy then a big dog. They use there little legs a lot to go the same distance. 

4% is usually for working dogs or dogs in a doggie sport. However you may find your little one needs more. I would not be afraid to feed 3% if they are acting hungry. Parts of chicken wings and chicken feed can be great sources of calcium. The latter can be found at Asian markets and has a ton of condroiten as well. 

Terri


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## [email protected] (Oct 9, 2014)

*Itchy dogs*

When I first got my dog. Whose original name at the shelter was "Scratch". 

I changed her food but I also added two capsules of omega fish oils a day. She is a 40 lb dog. I now feed raw but I also use the fish oil. It helped her then and it has a history of use in England for skin diseases. 

I would get it at a fairly good place. It is all cleaned at a molecular level but does it really have omega 3s? That is the important question with supplements since they are not well regulated. I do use Costco fish oil because they do check there amounts of said ingredients in products I'd stay away from walmart and grocery stores and stick to a good brand. 

The dog starts scratching her ears if she is not getting enough and my tryglcerides would be up without them it so the Costco brands seem to be working.

Fish oil is a great supplement in general for a lot of things. stay away from cod liver oil for dogs. Fine for people. Too much A and D for them. Don't use the bottles it goes rancid quickly. Your dog will learn to eat the whole capsule and love it. 

Terri


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## Kritter (Jan 9, 2015)

naturalfeddogs said:


> That is entirely too complicated. No need for such elaborate calculating. Reading all of that will scare new raw feeders off quick.
> 
> Your last statement isn't exactly correct. More variety of bone other than chicken should be fed. Red meats also have bone that can and should be fed as well. Red meats don't have to be fed only boneless.


What red meat bones can be fed? I feed my dogs chicken necks, duck necks, turkey necks, chicken backs, rabbit parts, pork riblets. When I feed them beef, it's just grinds with organs and a supplement.


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## naturalfeddogs (Jan 6, 2011)

Kritter said:


> What red meat bones can be fed? I feed my dogs chicken necks, duck necks, turkey necks, chicken backs, rabbit parts, pork riblets. When I feed them beef, it's just grinds with organs and a supplement.


Goat, deer, lamb, whole pork ribs.


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