# Affordable Raw Feeding



## rannmiller (Jun 27, 2008)

Okay, it is known that finding raw food at a bargain is a rare art form. So if any of you have any tricks, secrets, or suggestions let's post them here! 

I know Rawfeddogs has suggested getting in good with the local grocer, but I have none (to the best of my knowledge, still searching and hoping though), all my grocery stores I know of are large corporate chains so that option doesn't work as well for me, unfortunately.


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## carnivorediet (Jul 1, 2008)

Beef is like buying gas now. Sometimes I find it on sale, but for the most part it is expensive. I am looking into buying a side or front quarters from a rancher. I saw you are in Reno.... I am just south in Henderson.


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## domari (Jun 17, 2008)

rannmiller said:


> Okay, it is known that finding raw food at a bargain is a rare art form. So if any of you have any tricks, secrets, or suggestions let's post them here!
> 
> I know Rawfeddogs has suggested getting in good with the local grocer, but I have none (to the best of my knowledge, still searching and hoping though), all my grocery stores I know of are large corporate chains so that option doesn't work as well for me, unfortunately.


The town I live in doesn't have a grocery store. The closest store is Walmart and they don't have a butcher, they get all their meat pre-packaged from some warehouse.


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## Guest (Jul 17, 2008)

My dog eats a formula of fish and sweet potatoes. I stock up on sales, shop at Aldi's and Angel Food Ministries. http://www.angelfoodministries.com.

When I eat broccoli, I don't eat the ends so I flash freeze these and store them until I am making food. I do the same with the ends of asparagus.

I freeze the tops of the strawberries I eat and add those to the food.

Any time there is food in my frig that I know I am not going to eat, I freeze it before it goes bad and add it to the dog food. Except banana's. They are black when I freeze them.

I use barley which is cheaper than cheap and I splurge on Quinoa and Amaranth when I can afford it.


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## rannmiller (Jun 27, 2008)

carnivorediet said:


> Beef is like buying gas now. Sometimes I find it on sale, but for the most part it is expensive. I am looking into buying a side or front quarters from a rancher. I saw you are in Reno.... I am just south in Henderson.


Why hello fellow Nevada-dweller! I used to live in Spring Creek. I almost wish I still lived there, it's so much easier to get ahold of fresh, good, cheap meat. I'm looking into buying half a lamb from Fallon right now and my friend's mother in SC still raises meat rabbits and chickens so that's another option. But the shipping would probably kill me. 

I've found Trader Joe's to be one of the best places to get chicken drumsticks because they're all natural and only 99 cents/pound.


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## RawFedDogs (Jun 16, 2008)

domari said:


> The town I live in doesn't have a grocery store. The closest store is Walmart and they don't have a butcher, they get all their meat pre-packaged from some warehouse.


You can still get good deals at Walmart. I get chicken leg quarters there regularly at less than $.50/lb. in 10lb bags. Find out when they mark down their almost expired meat and try to be there at that time. You can get some good deals like that.

Check ethnic markets. They always have good stuff cheap. Check with restaurants. Find out where they get their meats. See if you can talk them into adding some bulk stuff for you in with their order. Check out surrounding towns. It's not a big deal to ride 30 or 40 miles to get a good deal on mabye 100lbs of meat. Check with farmers in the area. Many will sell you a cow or a goat or pig. Some will even butcher it for you or will tell you where to take it and maybe take it for you. You just never know what kind of deal you can work out with a farmer who has livestock. 

Put an ad on Freecycle or Recycle(yahoo groups) or on craigslist. In the ad ask for old meat from their freezer. State that freezer burned is OK. This works good particularly just before hunting season as hunters want to clean out last years stuff before going hunting again. I get LOTS of venison like this. Try wording ads differently from time to time. Ask all your friends about their old meat in their freezer. Be careful not to feed cooked bones when you get all that free stuff from freezers.

That should keep everyone busy for a while.


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## domari (Jun 17, 2008)

RawFedDogs said:


> You can still get good deals at Walmart. I get chicken leg quarters there regularly at less than $.50/lb. in 10lb bags. Find out when they mark down their almost expired meat and try to be there at that time. You can get some good deals like that.
> 
> Check ethnic markets. They always have good stuff cheap. Check with restaurants. Find out where they get their meats. See if you can talk them into adding some bulk stuff for you in with their order. Check out surrounding towns. It's not a big deal to ride 30 or 40 miles to get a good deal on mabye 100lbs of meat. Check with farmers in the area. Many will sell you a cow or a goat or pig. Some will even butcher it for you or will tell you where to take it and maybe take it for you. You just never know what kind of deal you can work out with a farmer who has livestock.
> 
> ...


Ethnic markets??? Ha, I haven't seen one since I moved here. I'd have to drive hours to find one. We don't even have "ethnic" food. The closest thing to Mexican food is Taco Bell, and that's all freeze dried trash shipped in a bucket. There's Pizza Hut, don't know what they might give me. Maybe our gas station Subway will give me their leftover rolls and ham? The only store in town is Dollar General. We have an ice cream shop, don't know how helpful they'll be. 

Each Freecycle groups rules are different, someone tried to offer leftover dried spices and had her post denied. Some don't allow food products to be offered or asked for. Someone tried to offer frozen salmon, there was a big fit about it, so no food is allowed anymore. I tried to give away a 20 lb bag of Iams cat food I was given for a foster cat, and that was turned down as well. 

What do you consider a "good deal" on a half cow, how much do you pay a pound? I was told by a local farmer it would be $4-$ per pound, to me, that's a lot of money for dog food. My husband won't even pay that much for a steak for himself. We're not rich enough to do that. 

Do you give your dogs raw pork? Doesn't that give them the runs? Or are your dogs immune to pork? 

Another thing, in another thread someone was telling me how awful I was for feeding my dogs Taste if the Wild dog food, she said it contains cancer causing preservatives made out of the same ingredient as Raid pesticide. So I'm sure my dogs are all doomed to die of cancer because of this horrid food. 

Yet you think it's ok for me to go to Walmart, stock up on chicken, beef and fish, processed in another state (or country for all I know) shipped to my store, and sits for a week. Meat that comes from unknown sources, filled with antibiotics, hormones, and who knows what else, then packaged in gas to preserve it for a few weeks or frozen to hide the smell. 

I won't eat meat from Walmart, but you think it's acceptable for dogs to eat it?? Yeah, Walmart has some fine meat for sale, ask them for the old stuff, it must be healthy. 

_"Processors say treated ground meat can be sold for 28 days after leaving the plant, and solid cuts for 35 days. The agribusiness company Cargill says it has sold 100 million packages in the last year."

"In a firsthand look at the treated meat, a package of a conventionally wrapped rib steak and one with the carbon monoxide were both red when bought on Feb. 3 near Washington. They were then kept refrigerated. By Feb. 16, when they were photographed for the pictures that appear with this article, the conventional meat was brown, but the treated meat was still rosy. And as of yesterday, other treated meat bought at the same time was still red despite having been left unrefrigerated on a kitchen counter since Feb. 14."_

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/02/21/national/21meat.html?_r=1&th&emc=th&oref=slogin

I suppose if people can eat old chemically preserved meat, injected with antibiotics and hormones, the dogs can too. After all, that's what dogs and cavemen ate hundreds of years ago.


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## RawFedDogs (Jun 16, 2008)

domari said:


> The only store in town is Dollar General. We have an ice cream shop, don't know how helpful they'll be.


Well you just might have to go to the trouble to ride over to the next town. Where do you get your groceries? Do you live so isolated that there is no independently owned restaurant around? I'm not saying get leftovers from the restaurant, I said get them to order bulk food for you.



> Each Freecycle groups rules are different, someone tried to offer leftover dried spices and had her post denied.


Yes, they are all different but there are 6 or 7 of them so if you look you might find one you can place your ad on.



> What do you consider a "good deal" on a half cow, how much do you pay a pound? I was told by a local farmer it would be $4-$ per pound, to me, that's a lot of money for dog food.


I think $4/lb is more than I would pay for food for my dogs except occasionally for a steak but not for a whole cow.



> Do you give your dogs raw pork? Doesn't that give them the runs? Or are your dogs immune to pork?


There is nothing to be immune to. Pork is meat just like any other meat. I feed pork once or twice a week every week. Its a relatively cheap red meat.



> Another thing, in another thread someone was telling me how awful I was for feeding my dogs Taste if the Wild dog food, she said it contains cancer causing preservatives made out of the same ingredient as Raid pesticide. So I'm sure my dogs are all doomed to die of cancer because of this horrid food.


What they said is correct. You can use your own judgement about feeding it. I know it is not allowed to be used in human food.



> Yet you think it's ok for me to go to Walmart, stock up on chicken, beef and fish, processed in another state (or country for all I know) shipped to my store, and sits for a week.


Yes, absolutely. It's safe to eat. Dogs can tolerate and thrive off meat that would kill us. I have fed my dogs meat I couldn't hardly stand to be in the room with. I had to use almost a whole can of room deoderizer after they ate. There were no ill effects and they loved it. After all they also eat poop.



> Meat that comes from unknown sources, filled with antibiotics, hormones, and who knows what else, then packaged in gas to preserve it for a few weeks or frozen to hide the smell.


Chicken is not filled with antiobitics nor hormones nor steriods. Beef and pork may be or may not be. Gas does no harm whatsoever. It keeps bacteria from growing the same way freezing keeps bacteria from growing. Bacteria is what makes meat go old. If not for baccteria we would not even have to refigerate meat and it would last forever.



> I won't eat meat from Walmart, but you think it's acceptable for dogs to eat it?? Yeah, Walmart has some fine meat for sale, ask them for the old stuff, it must be healthy.


Tens of millions of people eat Walmart food every day with no problems. As I said before, dogs can thrive on meat that would kill us and Walmart meat won't kill us. Yes I buy marked down meat from Walmart that is on the expiration date regularly and never one time had a problem.



> _"Processors say treated ground meat can be sold for 28 days after leaving the plant, and solid cuts for 35 days. The agribusiness company Cargill says it has sold 100 million packages in the last year."_


_

And no one got sick from it. hmmmmm .... wonder how that could be?




"In a firsthand look at the treated meat, a package of a conventionally wrapped rib steak and one with the carbon monoxide were both red when bought on Feb. 3 near Washington. They were then kept refrigerated. By Feb. 16, when they were photographed for the pictures that appear with this article, the conventional meat was brown, but the treated meat was still rosy. And as of yesterday, other treated meat bought at the same time was still red despite having been left unrefrigerated on a kitchen counter since Feb. 14."

Click to expand...

_Hehe, because all the bacteria was killed and the meat is still good. Thats good to know. I didn't know that. If the meat is still red and has no odor, the meat is still good to eat. Wonderful! 



> I suppose if people can eat old chemically preserved meat, injected with antibiotics and hormones, the dogs can too. After all, that's what dogs and cavemen ate hundreds of years ago.


Meat preserved in gas is not "chemically preserved meat". I would 10 times rater eat meat that spend time in a sterile package of gas than preserved in insectiside. Again there are not antibiotics or hormones, or steriods in poultry.

You are just afraid of meat, period. Our dogs can come upon an animal carcass in the woods that has been dead for weeks, eat it and have no problem. Wolves do it all the time. Bad meat is just not a problem for dogs ever. Their stomach juices are 50% hydrochloric acid and will quickly kill any bacteria that enters the stomach.


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## fyrikaos (Jul 19, 2008)

domari said:


> What do you consider a "good deal" on a half cow, how much do you pay a pound? I was told by a local farmer it would be $4-$ per pound, to me, that's a lot of money for dog food. My husband won't even pay that much for a steak for himself. We're not rich enough to do that.



hey - i don't want to like plug my dad or anything here - and i guess it depends where upstate you are - but my dad sells pigs as well as cows - if i remember correctly both are between $2.30 and $3 ( give or take a few dimes) a lb. this is after it is butchered into whatever cuts you want. the butcher takes care of all of that for him. he's a really small farm ( i think he just had the 14th cow born a few weeks ago) and he has a handful of pigs and a ton of chickens ( $2 a dozen on the eggs lol ) - but he takes outside orders all the time... 

he is currently certified 'natural' and will be working on getting certified organic in the future - it's just a pain and expensive to do. he doesn't give the animals any sort of meds... unless they are ill and then he doesn't sell them for food. And they are very well taken care of - so if you are interested and it isn't much of a hike for you ( he is in bainbridge, ny near binghamton/oneonta area) - i could hook you up with him!

but on a side note, i do hear you on how there isn't much for accesability for the ingredients needed to feed raw where you are. it is a tough call... and unfortunately in this day and age we have to compromise. I wish i could feed my child and my family all organic all of the time... but at $6 a gallon of organic milk - or $4 a mango - not to mention the 45 minute travel time to get to it - it just isn't economical or feasible in this day and age. 

we do the best that we can for our human and canine ( feline and more) babies.... and that is what counts.


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## Guest (Jul 20, 2008)

*Rural Shopping*

I used to get meat parts from this deer processing place.

Just a small sign at the side of the a road I saw on the way home.

I got kidneys for my cat with bad kidneys. They plant was very nice about it, there were lots of parts they had no use for that worked for my pets.


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## domari (Jun 17, 2008)

RawFedDogs said:


> Well you just might have to go to the trouble to ride over to the next town. Where do you get your groceries? Do you live so isolated that there is no independently owned restaurant around? I'm not saying get leftovers from the restaurant, I said get them to order bulk food for you.
> 
> Yes, they are all different but there are 6 or 7 of them so if you look you might find one you can place your ad on.
> 
> ...


I have to go to another town to get groceries, Walmart doesn't have a butcher and they aren't going to special order any meat for anyone either. 
We do not have a restaurant in town other than pizza, an ice cream place, and Subway. There's an all you can eat chinese place in the next town, I seriously doubt they'll order food. 

Millions of people eat hot dogs and nothing happens to them, does that mean hot dogs are healthy?

I've given pork to my dogs and wound up with diarrhea everywhere. Guess my dogs stomachs are not the same as wild dogs. One of my dogs has a very sensitive stomach, fat will cause the runs, so will pork. He can eat very lean beef or chicken breasts, no chicken skin or fat. 

We have a lot of road kill, can't go anywhere without seeing a dead deer or two on the road. Maybe I should let my dogs eat that??

No, I'm not "afraid" of meat, thats ridiculous. And yes, bad meat is bad for dogs, I have one who's proof of it.


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## Guest (Jul 21, 2008)

*Pork*

Well there is no commercial dog food with pork. Have you noticed that?

I've always wondered about that. 

I just got the latest issue of the PCRM (Physicians Committee For Responsible Medicine) and they had an article about the dangers of hot dogs.

I think probably anything eaten too often could be bad and most anything in moderation is ok.

Here in TN they made a law that it is legal to eat roadkill. Generally they make laws for a reason but this one I can't figure out. Is there a huge demand for road kill?

My opinion is that you do the best with what you have. It may be that people switch to raw overnight now but it wasn't always that way. Many of us eased into it bit by bit.


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## BoxerMommie (Jun 26, 2008)

Wal-Mart has a butcher, you just have to go to the meat section and ring the bell. I got raw bones from them for my other dog once and I also special ordered a cut of meat as well a couple of times and this was in podunkville where all there was was Wal-Mart, population 2,000 in back woods Louisiana. They don't make the guy readily available, but if you go to the door that goes into the back in the meat department there is a bell you can ring and talk to the butcher.


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## rannmiller (Jun 27, 2008)

Not all Wal-Marts are super duper Wal-Marts. I know Elko (NE Nevada) didn't have a grocery/butcher/baker section in their Wal-Mart until about 4 years ago. My biggest question for Domari is where do you get your groceries from? Because if your family eats meat, they have to get it from somewhere. Who's to say you couldn't just throw on a few extra pounds for the dogs? I think that's what everyone is trying to get at; if you say there's just no place in town to get meat for your dogs, then where do you get meat for your family?


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## rannmiller (Jun 27, 2008)

Forget I asked, you'll probably just get mad at me like you always do when I ask you to specify or clarify anything you've said.


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## RawFedDogs (Jun 16, 2008)

I answered this long time ago but evidently I forgot to hit the "submit" button after previewing. 



domari said:


> I have to go to another town to get groceries, Walmart doesn't have a butcher and they aren't going to special order any meat for anyone either.


You're right about that one. They aren't equipped to do that. I think most if not all Walmarts don't have butchers. I think their meat is cut in a central location and shipped to the stores. Their chicken quarters in the 10 lb bags are a great deal though.



> We do not have a restaurant in town other than pizza, an ice cream place, and Subway. There's an all you can eat chinese place in the next town, I seriously doubt they'll order food.


You don't know unitil you ask. Whats the worst thing that can happen? They can say, "no' ... thats about the worst.



> Millions of people eat hot dogs and nothing happens to them, does that mean hot dogs are healthy?


Millions of people don't eat hot dogs every day. Millions of people do eat Walmart meat every day without problems.



> I've given pork to my dogs and wound up with diarrhea everywhere. Guess my dogs stomachs are not the same as wild dogs. One of my dogs has a very sensitive stomach, fat will cause the runs, so will pork. He can eat very lean beef or chicken breasts, no chicken skin or fat.


You need to check out my web page on beginning raw feeding. The URL is listed in my sig. It will answer your questions about this.



> We have a lot of road kill, can't go anywhere without seeing a dead deer or two on the road. Maybe I should let my dogs eat that??


Hehe, most raw feeders celebrate when they find a relatively fresh road kill deer. Thats like the pot at the end of the rainbow.



> No, I'm not "afraid" of meat, thats ridiculous. And yes, bad meat is bad for dogs, I have one who's proof of it.


Dogs have such strong acids in their stomach juices that it kills any bacteria they eat. My dogs have eaten animals that have been dead for a week or more and smell terrible. I have fed them some meat someone gave me when his freezer when bad and it was very very smelly also. So smelly you didn't want to be in the same room with hit. I had to use a whole can of room deoderizer and we went out to eat that night. LOL They have never had any ill effects from eating meat that would kill a human.


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## BoxerMommie (Jun 26, 2008)

rannmiller said:


> Not all Wal-Marts are super duper Wal-Marts. I know Elko (NE Nevada) didn't have a grocery/butcher/baker section in their Wal-Mart until about 4 years ago. My biggest question for Domari is where do you get your groceries from? Because if your family eats meat, they have to get it from somewhere. Who's to say you couldn't just throw on a few extra pounds for the dogs? I think that's what everyone is trying to get at; if you say there's just no place in town to get meat for your dogs, then where do you get meat for your family?


Okay I guess I should say Super Wal-Mart, I would assume since we're talking about grocery shopping at a Wal-Mart we were talking about Super Wal-Marts. All super Wal-mart's I've been in had a butcher.


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## Guest (Jul 21, 2008)

*Might depend on the state.*

When I first moved here even Kroger had butchers. Now the laws are so strict that they don't. I think the law is that you need different machinery for each type of meat. Cleaning it isn't enough.

And gosh, Kroger can't afford more than one set of machinery. Heaven Forbid! 

Nashville is a pretty small town (1 million population) and it's hard/impossible to find a butcher. Fish markets will cut your fish.

This thread reminds me of another on this site. I'm not sure that browbeating the original poster is going to convince her to feed raw.

Maybe my approcah to dog training might work (not an insult I don't train dogs, I teach people to train their dogs).

Each of my pets have been different to get to eat raw. Few of them embraced it joyfully. 

For one of them I had to hold the raw bone in my hand to get him to chew it.

One would spit it out and I would laugh, pick it up and give it to him again.

One I had to put the bone in his bowl. 

(Interesting note: all of them willing and cheerfully ate fruit and veggies from my hand.)

For one of my cats I had to blend the food to smoothie like consistency.

One I had to put the food in the room where he ate and move it closer and closer every day (a new batch every day) until he got used to it enough to eat it.

One of my current cats you pretty much have to lock out of the kitchen if you don't want her to eat whatever meat you are working on! (She is great at killing mice and skinks too!)

In none of these cases did I scold, mock or browbeat my pets into eating raw.

I found different ways to encourage them all.

I think that works for humans as well.


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## Guest (Jul 21, 2008)

*Raw & Kibble*

One thing I keep forgetting to mention is that I feed raw with a bit of kibble on top. I don't think it will be a problem but I've always worried about what if I get sick and can't feed raw, I wanted my pets to be used to kibble.


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## RawFedDogs (Jun 16, 2008)

zentrainer said:


> This thread reminds me of another on this site. I'm not sure that browbeating the original poster is going to convince her to feed raw.


It's hardly browbeating when someone says they want to feed raw but can't because of reason "A". You offer a solution to problem "A" and they then have reason "B". You offer a solution to that problem and so on down the line. This is nothing more than helping someone overcome obstacles in order to reach a goal. You may offer a solution to problem "C" and they say that solution won't work so you offer another solution to problem "C".

It's called getting things done and reaching goals. If you just stop when you reach an obstical, nothing will ever get done.


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## Guest (Jul 21, 2008)

*Challenges*

I love obstacles. People ask me if I lose patience when dog training. No, I actually never do. I am teaching and find it so much fun to figure out what will work with each different individual.

I do it cheerfully and patiently. (Now, that's when I am teaching. I get impatient in the kitchen trying to move about with 5 dogs who aren't mine all trying to stick their heads in the refrigerator!)

I rarely repeat what I have done once if it didn't work. Sometimes I will once just to be sure I was clear and then I move on.

Sometimes I find I have to clarify. "So what you really want is for your dog to learn "leave it", not "drop it"?" That way I know we are still on the same page.

When I am flumoxed with an owner and get the response you describe above, I ask the client to go home and drink a whole bottle of wine (if they drink) and brainstorm. Write down every silly idea they can think of that might solve their problem.

I have a client whose dog spends several days a week with me. In the beginning I would come home for drop offs and pick ups, but I train until 8 at night and this clients flight comes in at 5. It became too much for me to do.

We brainstormed (she with wine, me without) and came up with ideas like sending her dog home in a cab, teaching it to drive, enlisitng one of my stay at home neighbors for the drop off and pick ups and finally hit on giving her a key to my house. It has worked great.


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## RawFedDogs (Jun 16, 2008)

zentrainer said:


> This thread reminds me of another on this site. I'm not sure that browbeating the original poster is going to convince her to feed raw.


It's hardly browbeating when someone says they want to feed raw but can't because of reason "A". You offer a solution to problem "A" and they then have reason "B". You offer a solution to that problem and so on down the line. This is nothing more than helping someone overcome obstacles in order to reach a goal. You may offer a solution to problem "C" and they say that solution won't work so you offer another solution to problem "C".

It's called getting things done and reaching goals. If you just stop when you reach an obstical, nothing will ever get done.


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## rannmiller (Jun 27, 2008)

Score! I just secured my first stash of free freezer-burned meat including some venison! That was the best advice ever! My mom said she's going to check out her freezer too and I'll tell her to tell her friends and so on. 

Thank you so much for that tip!


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## domari (Jun 17, 2008)

rannmiller said:


> Forget I asked, you'll probably just get mad at me like you always do when I ask you to specify or clarify anything you've said.


No, I don't always get mad when you ask a question. You assume I'm mad because you don't like my answer.


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## domari (Jun 17, 2008)

zentrainer said:


> Well there is no commercial dog food with pork. Have you noticed that?
> 
> I've always wondered about that.
> 
> ...


Maybe because all dogs don't tolerate pork?

I don't know about TN, but around here, when someone hits a deer, they call the police to get a report and deer tag so they can take it home. Most of the smaller roadkill sits on the road until the birds and coyotes get it.


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## domari (Jun 17, 2008)

BoxerMommie said:


> Wal-Mart has a butcher, you just have to go to the meat section and ring the bell. I got raw bones from them for my other dog once and I also special ordered a cut of meat as well a couple of times and this was in podunkville where all there was was Wal-Mart, population 2,000 in back woods Louisiana. They don't make the guy readily available, but if you go to the door that goes into the back in the meat department there is a bell you can ring and talk to the butcher.


Your walmart does, lucky you, my walmart does not. I asked when I wanted to complain about the bloated meat packages with discolored meat in it.


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## domari (Jun 17, 2008)

zentrainer said:


> When I first moved here even Kroger had butchers. Now the laws are so strict that they don't. I think the law is that you need different machinery for each type of meat. Cleaning it isn't enough.
> 
> And gosh, Kroger can't afford more than one set of machinery. Heaven Forbid!
> 
> ...


Ha, I got a chuckle out of you saying Nashville was a small town with one million people. I must live in a teeny tiny town with less than one thousand people here!

You're right, browbeating anyone doesn't work. This isnt supposed to be some sort of power struggle which it seems to be at times. If someone can't brow beat someone else into submission, then they turn to name calling, etc. I don't waste my time listening to people like that. I think it's the same as parents beating children into submission, sorry, it's the wrong way to educate someone.


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## domari (Jun 17, 2008)

rannmiller said:


> Not all Wal-Marts are super duper Wal-Marts. I know Elko (NE Nevada) didn't have a grocery/butcher/baker section in their Wal-Mart until about 4 years ago. My biggest question for Domari is where do you get your groceries from? Because if your family eats meat, they have to get it from somewhere. Who's to say you couldn't just throw on a few extra pounds for the dogs? I think that's what everyone is trying to get at; if you say there's just no place in town to get meat for your dogs, then where do you get meat for your family?


Walmart. 

I don't eat any meat, but my husband does. He eats Walmart meat which is a bit overpriced for feeding six large dogs. There are some stores farther away, but we're not going to pay $4.99 a lb for beef to feed dogs when we don't spend that much on beef for him to eat. We can't afford that. 

We pay around $40 for 30 - 40 lbs of dog food. Can't find beef cheaper than that. Chicken quarters are around $1.29 lb, but not beef.


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## RawFedDogs (Jun 16, 2008)

domari said:


> We pay around $40 for 30 - 40 lbs of dog food. Can't find beef cheaper than that. Chicken quarters are around $1.29 lb, but not beef.


I pay way less than $1/lb for 3/4 of the meat I feed. I never pay more than $2.29/lb for anything and I rarely buy anything that expensive.

I pay between $.50 and $.75/lb for beef heart and thats the most nutritious meat in the cow.

I live in a rural town of ~4,000.


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## BoxerMommie (Jun 26, 2008)

domari said:


> Your walmart does, lucky you, my walmart does not. I asked when I wanted to complain about the bloated meat packages with discolored meat in it.


No lucky me I stopped buying meat at Wal-Mart LONG ago. But I've been to 2 Wal-Marts in Louisiana, and oh gosh either 5 or 6 here in Arizona, and one in Kansas and all had a person in the back in the meat department who oversaw things and you were able to buy bones through or request a special cut of meat be ordered. I am not 100% sure the person was a "butcher" but it was a head meat person anyway and they would special order a cut of meat as well as give me bones if I asked. It isn't like it's just my local one, it's been in 3 different states in quite a few different areas.


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## BoxerMommie (Jun 26, 2008)

domari said:


> Walmart.
> 
> I don't eat any meat, but my husband does. He eats Walmart meat which is a bit overpriced for feeding six large dogs. There are some stores farther away, but we're not going to pay $4.99 a lb for beef to feed dogs when we don't spend that much on beef for him to eat. We can't afford that.
> 
> We pay around $40 for 30 - 40 lbs of dog food. Can't find beef cheaper than that. Chicken quarters are around $1.29 lb, but not beef.



Wal-Mart has bagged chicken quarters that are in 10 pound bags that are $5, they're 50 cents per pound (if you're interested). They're usually near the whole chickens in the meat case not in the frozen aisle freezers.


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## domari (Jun 17, 2008)

BoxerMommie said:


> Wal-Mart has bagged chicken quarters that are in 10 pound bags that are $5, they're 50 cents per pound (if you're interested). They're usually near the whole chickens in the meat case not in the frozen aisle freezers.


I've lived in many cities and in four different states. Not all Walmart's have the same prices, they don't even sell the same products in every store. Where I live, I can find an 8 oz package of cheddar cheese for less than $2.50, but the state where my middle son lives, that same chunk of cheese will be well over $3. Where he lives, Walmart sells whole beef briskets half of what they cost here. I know, I used to live there. 

My oldest son just moved from one state to another, we were discussing the price of milk. He pays less for a gallon of milk than I do. I just paid $2.91 for a half gallon of 1% milk in Walmart, he pays less than $4 a gallon in a convenience store. What do you pay for milk? What do you pay for gas? Our Walmart gas is $4.17 a gallon. 

See what I mean? Supply and demand, location, competition, etc, that's how stores base their prices. 

When you go to Walmart website, check for your local ad. 

This is what their website sayw... "Advertised Values at Your Local Wal-Mart
Products vary by season from store to store. To find the Advertised Values for the store in your neighborhood, please search for your store's location below." 

"Different Advertised Values in Different Stores
At each Wal-Mart, we try hard to have what you want, when you want it. And just as the product offering changes geographically, the Advertised Values change across the country to better reflect the different seasonal products available at different stores. "


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## rannmiller (Jun 27, 2008)

RawFedDogs said:


> I pay way less than $1/lb for 3/4 of the meat I feed. I never pay more than $2.29/lb for anything and I rarely buy anything that expensive.
> 
> I pay between $.50 and $.75/lb for beef heart and thats the most nutritious meat in the cow.
> 
> I live in a rural town of ~4,000.


Holy cow that's cheap! Where do you live? I'm moving there!


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## BoxerMommie (Jun 26, 2008)

domari said:


> I've lived in many cities and in four different states. Not all Walmart's have the same prices, they don't even sell the same products in every store. Where I live, I can find an 8 oz package of cheddar cheese for less than $2.50, but the state where my middle son lives, that same chunk of cheese will be well over $3. Where he lives, Walmart sells whole beef briskets half of what they cost here. I know, I used to live there.
> 
> My oldest son just moved from one state to another, we were discussing the price of milk. He pays less for a gallon of milk than I do. I just paid $2.91 for a half gallon of 1% milk in Walmart, he pays less than $4 a gallon in a convenience store. What do you pay for milk? What do you pay for gas? Our Walmart gas is $4.17 a gallon.
> 
> ...


Whatever, I find it funny though that Rawfeddogs and I are talking about the same thing though and we don't live in the same place, in fact we live a good 1500 miles apart and I know I read him speaking of the leg quarters for 50 cents a pound. I am well aware of price differences I've lived all over the country, but I have found Wal-Mart prices to be pretty stable even in different states and on many things. And you don't need to get SO defensive over everything for goodness sake. I shopped at Wal-Mart for 8 years before I knew that they sold these leg quarters, they're well hidden and I never looked at the whole chickens so I never saw them, until I was looking for a fryer chicken to make for my dying dog and happened to see the leg quarters and how cheap they were and now I buy them all the time. It was simply a "helping hand" as I would go there AT LEAST twice a month usually more like 3-4 times a month for 8 years and never knew about it. Can't imagine I'm the only one that missed them.


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## BoxMeIn21 (Jul 2, 2008)

rannmiller said:


> Okay, it is known that finding raw food at a bargain is a rare art form. So if any of you have any tricks, secrets, or suggestions let's post them here!
> 
> I know Rawfeddogs has suggested getting in good with the local grocer, but I have none (to the best of my knowledge, still searching and hoping though), all my grocery stores I know of are large corporate chains so that option doesn't work as well for me, unfortunately.


I didn't read the whole thread, so pardon me if this has already been suggested - have you checked out Yahoo's Carnivore Feed Supplier list? I was able to find a good co-op AND supplier for much cheaper than any grocery store. Just a thought.


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## domari (Jun 17, 2008)

BoxMeIn21 said:


> I didn't read the whole thread, so pardon me if this has already been suggested - have you checked out Yahoo's Carnivore Feed Supplier list? I was able to find a good co-op AND supplier for much cheaper than any grocery store. Just a thought.


I know there are raw feeding groups on Yahoo for different localities. I know of one that orders food in bulk and divides it, the more people they get in the group, the better discount they can get.


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## rannmiller (Jun 27, 2008)

I found whole chickens at a grocery store for 88 cents/lb and drumsticks and thighs for 98 cents/lb. Needless to say, I stocked up a little. Tomorrow: Operation Learn How to Cut Up a Whole Chicken.


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## domari (Jun 17, 2008)

rannmiller said:


> I found whole chickens at a grocery store for 88 cents/lb and drumsticks and thighs for 98 cents/lb. Needless to say, I stocked up a little. Tomorrow: Operation Learn How to Cut Up a Whole Chicken.


Cutting up a whole chicken is the easy part. Get a sharp knife and cut between the joints. if you dislocate the joints first, it's easier to find them and cut between them.


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## rannmiller (Jun 27, 2008)

Like this?
http://www.gourmetsleuth.com/cutupchicken.htm
http://www.cookingforengineers.com/article/97/Cutting-Up-Chicken


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## rannmiller (Jun 27, 2008)

I went to WalMart today to get my usual two 10 lbs bags of chicken leg quarters and they were on sale for $3 each!!! Only $.30/lb when they're usually $.63/lb!!! I was so happy I almost died. Needless to say, I grabbed 8 bags of it (all but one of the bags there, the last one looked a little gross) and walked away happily. Oh man, I'm so stoked right now!


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## whiteleo (Sep 7, 2008)

Ya know, one thing I don't get about this forum as far as the raw fed forum goes anyway is this, you guys all are so careful and don't want to give your dogs vaccines, antibiotics and such, but you'll feed your dogs any kind of meat that has been vaccinated, hormoned, and anything else to it. Just thought I would ask since it has been bugging me.


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## RawFedDogs (Jun 16, 2008)

I don't have any problems giving my dogs antibiotics if they have a health problem that calls for them. The majority of the meat I feed them (chicken) doesn't have hormones, steriods, antibiotics or vaccines added. Of course all animals have natural hormones and steriods in them. So the amount of those items in their food is minimal.

There have been a lot of physical problems linked to vaccines so I don't vaccinate them.


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## EnglishBullTerriers (Sep 10, 2008)

whiteleo said:


> Ya know, one thing I don't get about this forum as far as the raw fed forum goes anyway is this, you guys all are so careful and don't want to give your dogs vaccines, antibiotics and such, but you'll feed your dogs any kind of meat that has been vaccinated, hormoned, and anything else to it. Just thought I would ask since it has been bugging me.


I do still vaccinate my dogs for the things that they need to help their immunity, but the vaccinations are not going to cure anything and they most likely won't even protect against anything. Any more these days, our dogs have gone through so many generations of vaccinations that they don't nessicarilly need them any more after the 'puppy shot' series.
I just came from a job where we worked with vaccinations, making and testing them for effectiveness, and for the most part, theses companies are paying for the research and they want to sell their product. They will continue to do the studies untill they get the results that they want. In short, I wouldn't trust vaccination injections for face value. 
The meat that is fed to the dogs, that is unavoidable. ALL meat has some kind of chemical that is not naturally found in 'game food' that they would get in the wild. So, if I am able to get 'wild game' then I will feed that and it is healthier, but since that is not always available. We have to go with what is. 
That is my side of the story anyway! Maybe we can start a thread asking others their opinion.


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## whiteleo (Sep 7, 2008)

So, what about the beef and pork? When I mentioned that I order my food through a food co-op,(which, should mean their food is orgaqnic,grain fed beef, chicken and I don't know about pork) you said ("raw fed dogs") it didn't really mean I was getting organic. I buy organic for my house, not everything mostly meat, milk, some vegetables
so why wouldn't I buy that for my dogs. I'm just trying to find the facts, if it's absolutely necessary, or just my peace of mind.


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## RawFedDogs (Jun 16, 2008)

whiteleo said:


> So, what about the beef and pork?


What about it? I don't understand what you are asking. Yes, I feed both of those and buy them at the grocery store. They are not organic and probably have been fed hormones & antibiotics. I think there is a period in which they can't be fed those things within a certain time before slaughter. Maybe a month. I'm not sure. I feel those things are in such small amounts as to be inconsequential.



> When I mentioned that I order my food through a food co-op,(which, should mean their food is orgaqnic,grain fed beef, chicken and I don't know about pork) you said ("raw fed dogs") it didn't really mean I was getting organic.


If you are talking about a raw feeding co-op for your dog's food, they usually don't sell organic unless you specifically ask for it. All a co-op is, is a group of people who pool their money so they can get discounts buying food in large quantities. If they say it's organic, then I have no reason to doubt them but if they don't specifically say it is, it probably isn't.



> I buy organic for my house, not everything mostly meat, milk, some vegetables so why wouldn't I buy that for my dogs.


If you wish to pay the extra money then do it. I'm not convinced of the benefit of feeding organic but it certainly won't hurt.



> I'm just trying to find the facts, if it's absolutely necessary, or just my peace of mind.


It's not absoultely necessary. Whether it is beneficial is open to debate.


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## LoveNewfies (Jun 18, 2008)

We feed as much organic as possible, although it isn't always easy. When speaking about the meat market, organic and free range are not necessarily as organic and free range as we'd like to see. I prefer to know exactly where the meat is coming from before I pay the money for it. Between today's economy and "loopholes" companies find, it's not always easy to go completely organic.

I do believe that organic does make a difference and while it isn't possible for us to always provide organic for ourselves or our dogs, we do our best. And let me tell you, the last time I brought a tomato home that was not organic, my husband took one bite, spit it out and said "where the heck did this come from?". Even with organically raised meats, there is a difference in the taste at the very least. I personally don't think the steroids, antibiotics and un-natural feeds given to many animals raised for food are good for us at all.


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## claybuster (Dec 18, 2008)

whiteleo said:


> Ya know, one thing I don't get about this forum as far as the raw fed forum goes anyway is this, you guys all are so careful and don't want to give your dogs vaccines, antibiotics and such, but you'll feed your dogs any kind of meat that has been vaccinated, hormoned, and anything else to it. Just thought I would ask since it has been bugging me.


Good point. I think the best way to go about raw feeding is to be in control 
of your own meat source. When you can slaughter and butcher your own animals, that is a huge benefit, but not practical for vast majority of raw feeders who have reliance on commercial store bought meats where access and handling becomes an issue. Unless you are in control of meat source, I would say better off cooking that store bought stuff.


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## RawFedDogs (Jun 16, 2008)

claybuster said:


> Unless you are in control of meat source, I would say better off cooking that store bought stuff.


There is never a time that cooked meat is better for a dog than raw meat. Cooking destroys some nutrients and makes the meat more difficult to digest.


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## rannmiller (Jun 27, 2008)

And makes bones dangerous to eat, thus throwing off the calcium/phosphorus ratio.


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## claybuster (Dec 18, 2008)

I realize cooking the meat you lose something, but that is what I would do with commercial store bought meats. I only feed raw when I am in control of the meat source. For example, my dog points a Pheasant, I shoot the Pheasant, she could be in for some fresher than fresh Pheasant By-Product Meal. Anything from a commercial source like a supermarket meats, Wal-Mart, etc., I'm cooking it before giving it to my dog.


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## RawFedDogs (Jun 16, 2008)

claybuster said:


> Anything from a commercial source like a supermarket meats, Wal-Mart, etc., I'm cooking it before giving it to my dog.


What are you gaining by making the meat more difficult to digest and less nutritious?


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## claybuster (Dec 18, 2008)

rannmiller said:


> And makes bones dangerous to eat, thus throwing off the calcium/phosphorus ratio.


Yes, cooked bones can splinter, but you can throw off the calicum/phosphorus either way if too much cooked or uncooked bone enters the diet.


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## claybuster (Dec 18, 2008)

RawFedDogs said:


> What are you gaining by making the meat more difficult to digest and less nutritious?


Peace of mind. When it comes to commercial store bought meats, the nutritional gains aren't worth the potential health and safety risks. I read a decent article about this somewhere and I will see if I can locate it for you.
If you can be in control of your own source then raw is the best option, but when you can't be, some say cooking despite loss of some benefit is the wiser option. I'll try to dig up the article for you if your interested. The artical made a lot of sense to me.


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## RawFedDogs (Jun 16, 2008)

claybuster said:


> Peace of mind. When it comes to commercial store bought meats, the nutritional gains aren't worth the potential health and safety risks.


The only possible benefit I can see to cooking food is to kill bacteria. Bacteria just isn't a problem for dogs. It's not as big a problem for humans as some would have you believe.

Are you saying you are feeding cooked bones?

I will agree with you that wild meat is better to feed than domestic meats but I don't see domestic meats as dangerous, just not as healthy.


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## rannmiller (Jun 27, 2008)

Maybe he means cooking out the added antibiotics and hormones? Not sure you can cook those out though.


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## claybuster (Dec 18, 2008)

RawFedDogs said:


> The only possible benefit I can see to cooking food is to kill bacteria. Bacteria just isn't a problem for dogs. It's not as big a problem for humans as some would have you believe.
> 
> Are you saying you are feeding cooked bones?
> 
> I will agree with you that wild meat is better to feed than domestic meats but I don't see domestic meats as dangerous, just not as healthy.


Yes, killing bacteria, and yes some stuff harmless for your dog but deadly to humans. No to feeding cooked bones.


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## claybuster (Dec 18, 2008)

rannmiller said:


> Maybe he means cooking out the added antibiotics and hormones? Not sure you can cook those out though.


...or other drugs used to euthanize...then there is the salmonella and ecoli bacteria. Suppose your preparing a batch of raw, and a child comes by with finger rubbing on countertop...puts hand in mouth. If has to be a concern with family and area of caution. Right from the package to pan and discard the plastic is pretty safe though. I think it can be risky in some respects not knowing where the meat is from, was the animal taken down with drugs, mad cow, etc. Cooked fresh meat diet is still leaps and bounds better than any kibble diet. I think getting a hunting license is a good idea
for feeding raw! Stock you freezer during hunting season.


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## MandyPug (Sep 21, 2008)

claybuster said:


> ...or other drugs used to euthanize...then there is the salmonella and ecoli bacteria. Suppose your preparing a batch of raw, and a child comes by with finger rubbing on countertop...puts hand in mouth. If has to be a concern with family and area of caution. Right from the package to pan and discard the plastic is pretty safe though. I think it can be risky in some respects not knowing where the meat is from, was the animal taken down with drugs, mad cow, etc. Cooked fresh meat diet is still leaps and bounds better than any kibble diet. I think getting a hunting license is a good idea
> for feeding raw! Stock you freezer during hunting season.


1) Wear disposable rubber gloves when preparing and feeding.
2) Use only certain cutlery and cutting boards for preparing.
3) A) Teach kids not to be around you during preparation.
B) Teach kids not to bug dog while it's eating.
C) Teach kids not to eat, touch, lick, roll in, etc. doggie poo!
4) Use only certain dishes/ areas to feed raw dog in.
5) Deep-Freeze the meat for at least 24 hours before thawing it and serving it to your dogs.
6) Remember when cleaning cutting boards (plastic ones at least), BLEACH IS YOUR FRIEND!

Honestly if you follow at least those few guidelines when feeding and preparing then you should be fine... You handle the meat just as you would handle cutting up a chicken breast for yourself! You wouldn't use the same cutting board for fruit after the chicken would you? You wouldn't have your kid's hand in all the raw juices would you?
Dogs CAN handle Samonella and E.Coli and as long as their people are careful about how they prepare stuff it's perfectly safe.


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## RawFedDogs (Jun 16, 2008)

claybuster said:


> ...or other drugs used to euthanize...


Meat for human consumption does not come from animals euthanized by drugs. That would be all grocery store meat. I think about the only place you would find animals euthanized by drugs would be in a vet's office.



> then there is the salmonella and ecoli bacteria.


It's not a concern. There is salmonella and e-coli all over your kitchen right now. Your kitchen sink is the dirtiest place in your house as far as bacteria goes.



> Suppose your preparing a batch of raw, and a child comes by with finger rubbing on countertop...puts hand in mouth.


It happens all the time at my house. It's no big deal. I've been feeding raw for 6 1/2 years with no problems. I don't do any special clean up. No one in my family nor any visitors to my house have had problems with salmonella or e-coli.



> If has to be a concern with family and area of caution.


Nope, I never give it a second thought.



> Right from the package to pan and discard the plastic is pretty safe though.


I buy most of my meat in bulk. It doesn't come in packages. It comes in boxes. I often buy 100 to 150lbs of meat at a time. When I get it home, I thaw it all out, put in meal size ziplocks and re-freeze. I have 2 freezers just for dog's meat.



> I think it can be risky in some respects not knowing where the meat is from, was the animal taken down with drugs, mad cow, etc.


Most of the meat I buy comes from USDA inspected processing plants. Believe it or not, its really not easy to buy meat from non-USDA places.



> Cooked fresh meat diet is still leaps and bounds better than any kibble diet.


You are absolutely right but it would be leaps and bounds better if you didn't cook it.



> I think getting a hunting license is a good idea
> for feeding raw! Stock you freezer during hunting season.


Again, you are absolutely right. If I could feed nothing but wild game, I'd do it. I beg as much free deer meat off as many people as I can. :smile: My dogs AND CATS often catch and kill their own meals.


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## RawFedDogs (Jun 16, 2008)

MandyPug said:


> 1) Wear disposable rubber gloves when preparing and feeding.


Don't own any. Never owned any.



> 2) Use only certain cutlery and cutting boards for preparing.


Don't have that much cutlery. I use the same for humans and animals food.



> 3) A) Teach kids not to be around you during preparation.


My 6yo granddaughter sometimes helps me prepare dog's food.



> B) Teach kids not to bug dog while it's eating.


Yes, I agree.



> (C) Teach kids not to eat, touch, lick, roll in, etc. doggie poo!


Or any other kind of poo. :smile:



> 4) Use only certain dishes/ areas to feed raw dog in.


Most of my dog's meals aren't fed in bowls. I stand at the kitchen sink and hand out animal parts. They take it to where they want to to eat. They get 2 or 3 meals a week out of a bowl. The bowls are washed every few weeks. They do a pretty good job of cleaning them themselves. :smile:



> 5) Deep-Freeze the meat for at least 24 hours before thawing it and serving it to your dogs.


For what purpose? Since I buy is such large quantities, my dog's meat is almost always frozen before they eat it but often I will buy a pork roast or chicken quarters at the grocery store and feed them as soon as I get home.



> 6) Remember when cleaning cutting boards (plastic ones at least), BLEACH IS YOUR FRIEND!


I just use water ... sometimes dish washing liquid.



> You wouldn't use the same cutting board for fruit after the chicken would you?


Not immediately after. Sometimes after it's been rinsed.



> You wouldn't have your kid's hand in all the raw juices would you?


Yes, thats what soap and water is for.



> Dogs CAN handle Samonella and E.Coli and as long as their people are careful about how they prepare stuff it's perfectly safe.


I don't handle my dog's meat any different than I do the human's meat. Almost eveyone eats meat and therefore almost everyone handles raw meat.

Remember: * "Any bacteria that doesn't kill you is good for you." * :smile:


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## MandyPug (Sep 21, 2008)

RawFedDogs, I agree with how you do things cause i don't ALWAYS follow all those things, but when i'm switching people on to raw and their asking about samonella and e.coli, i just list that and then they think to themselves "oh gee, i just have to handle it the same way i'd handle raw meat for myself! That's not hard!". It's often the last little push to get clients on to raw. 

The deep freezing is if you buy large quantities of meat fresh (like say you go to costco and get whole fresh chickens on sale, freeze them so you can use the older stuff first, it doesn't really matter, just kinda a thing to give the new people some people some piece of mind i guess about "killing" bacteria . 

My girls eat pre-made raw made fairly locally and i get it for cheap cause of where i work and the brand i use has very little veggies if any (i mainly just feed the ground bone, meat and organs, with tripe sometimes very rarely though cause it stinks so darn bad!). 
The brand i mainly use is called Urban Carnivore, they believe more in a prey model rather than a barf model so they sell mostly only the meat, bone, mixes, one kind of chicken "full meal" (means with veggie) and one kind of beef "full meal". It's cheap for me, and convenient for me, plus i have pugs whom tend to try and swallow things whole
They also get whole chicken necks (they have to be supervised or they do the "gulp and steal") and they get whole deer and bison ribs for their teeth, as well as meaty bison marrow bones occasionally (never broken a tooth on one either).
I can admit when handing out raw bones, i don't use gloves.


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## claybuster (Dec 18, 2008)

> Meat, then, is the basic protein source for sleddogs; fish is an alternative. Both are of maximum nutritional value to the dogs in their raw, fresh form, but the natural, raw fresh forms of both meat and fish are subject to serious problems in terms of access, handling, freshness, and possible contamination with infectious organisms. Some of the best and most economic meat sources are also quite dangerous these days. Poultry is subject to Salmonella contamination; hamburger is dangerous for E. coli and several other infectious bacteria. Fish frequently carries a variety of tapeworm species. The meat of wild game species such as moose, deer, beaver, caribou, and sheep is very attractive to sleddogs, but is dangerous for a variety of organisms, the most hazardous of which is the hydatid tapeworm Echinococcus; relatively harmless to the dog, it is frequently fatal when passed on to human beings). Bear and seal meat (as well as domestic pork) can carry trichinosis. For these reasons, a responsible dog driver has no option but to cook meat and fish thoroughly before feeding these protein sources, even though cooking may reduce the nutritional value somewhat due to destruction of enzymes and structural changes in amino and fatty acids. The health risks of feeding raw meat and fish outweigh the nutritional rewards. An exception can probably be made in the case of fresh muscle meat from noncommercial sources. Organ meats can be of high nutritional value, but can also cause spectacular digestive upsets if they are only slightly 'off.'


The above quote is from that article I mentioned. I don't know, everybody has there own thing I guess when it comes to feeding. These folks just seem to make an awful lot of sense to me and have been doing it for a long time.
I don't mean to seem paranoid about the bacteria thing. I realize chances are nothing will happen. It just seems much better the other way, being in control of your own sources.

Hope you find the article interesting.

Happy New Year to all,
Charlie

Feeding Seppalas


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## MandyPug (Sep 21, 2008)

claybuster said:


> The above quote is from that article I mentioned. I don't know, everybody has there own thing I guess when it comes to feeding. These folks just seem to make an awful lot of sense to me and have been doing it for a long time.
> I don't mean to seem paranoid about the bacteria thing. I realize chances are nothing will happen. It just seems much better the other way, being in control of your own sources.
> 
> Hope you find the article interesting.
> ...


Well of course in a perfect world we'd all live ranches with our own animals and with natural fauna around and abundant enough to get our own meat! However, not all of us can go out and shoot deer and elk and pheasant; and not everyone should cause i know many people too stupid to know when you hunt you don't shoot as many deer as you see, no understanding of conservation. Feeding human grade meats from the grocery store is the next best thing; and like i said, as long as you're aware of what you're doing you'll be fine. Neither me, any of the other staff at the store, my parents, guests of my houese, or any of my dogs or my clients' dogs have gotten sick from the bacteria on raw. Besides, there's bacteria on all meats whether factory farm raised, hand raised by you, or wild game shot in the mountains. 
Bottom line, if you're concerned; wear gloves, clean lots, and teach your children not to stick their hands in a puddle of chicken juice and stick it in their mouth! You don't have to worry about your dogs, they were built to eat raw meat! (And no a dogs digestive system has not evolved to only have cooked meat, evolution cannot happen in a mere 60 years it takes THOUSANDS)


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## RawFedDogs (Jun 16, 2008)

claybuster said:


> The above quote is from that article I mentioned. I don't know, everybody has there own thing I guess when it comes to feeding. These folks just seem to make an awful lot of sense to me and have been doing it for a long time.


Charlie,
I don't disagree with most of what was in that article. I read somewhere on more than one occasion that 80% of poultry in grocery stores contain salmonella. I just know that it's not a problem. I have fed chicken every day for 6 1/2 years and never had a problem with either my dogs or my family. One time I had someone give me some food from his freezer that had broken. That stuff smelled very rank. I mean it really stunk up the kitchen when I fed it. Dogs ate it with no problem. No diarrhea, no vomiting.

Yes, there can be and often is e-coli in ground beef. I rarely feed ground beef but sometimes do. I don't cook it for the dogs. I eat my hamburgers pink on the inside. Never a problem. Not once. After all, dogs lick their own butts. Most dogs will eat stools. Mine eat deer, rabbit and unidentified stools often.

As far as trich in pork ... it's not a problem with the pork in the US, Austraila, the UK, and most countries in western europe. Trich has been eliminated in those areas.

As far as wild meat goes, I always freeze wild meat for at least a month before feeding it. That kills the parasites. Freezing won't kill bacteria but will kill parasites. Most of the wild meat I get has already been frozen for a year or more before I get it because I get it from people who just want to get it out of their freezer. There is one lady that I get about 100 lbs of deer meat from each year as she cleans out her freezer of last years kill to make room for this years kill.



> I don't mean to seem paranoid about the bacteria thing. I realize chances are nothing will happen. It just seems much better the other way, being in control of your own sources.


The problem is that you are killing nutrition. You are ruining one of the main benefits of feeding raw by cooking. It's like owning a Ferrari and only driving it 20 MPH. :smile: :smile: :smile:

I have been very cavilier with bacteria for most of my life and have never had a problem with either my dogs or my family. I think its a non-issue. I am careful about parasites in wild food but freezing takes care of that. My dogs and cats do catch and eat wild critters pretty regularly without problem.

Hehe, here is a funny story. One time I was here at the computer late one night and heard a pretty loud thumping noise. I thought it was one of the dogs walking down the hall wagging his tail and hitting the walls on each side of the hall. The sound kept going too long to be that so I got up to investigate. The noise was coming from the bathroom. I looked in the bath room and there was both my cats with a rabbit they had caught and brought inside. They were beating him against the wall trying to kill him. :smile: I closed the bathroom door and left them for about an hour. I looked in on them again the the rabbit was dead and they were eating on it. About an hour later, I looked in again and all that was left of the rabbit was a stomach, small pile of intestines and a LITTLE fur. Nothing more.

What I still can't figure out is how they got the rabbit over the 5' chain link fence while it was still alive. Except for extreme cold weather we keep the back door cracked a little so the animals can come and go at will.


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## rannmiller (Jun 27, 2008)

That's a great story, I wish my cat could do that!

As far as the bacteria goes, dogs were made to digest it, I think that's been pretty well established. I believe the CDC actually admitted that the only cases they've seen of dogs or cats being effected by salmonella or e.coli was when their owners were being stupid/the meat was being fed wrong. For example, if the meat had been sitting out at room temperature for a day and a half or if the raw meat was fed too close in time to cooked meat.


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## claybuster (Dec 18, 2008)

I know it is unrealistic for most all to be in control of their own sources, but I still think it is much better if you can. You can purchase live animals 'on the hoof', like the article mentioned, and will I'm sure you would all do a more humane job than the crew at the slaughter house. Again, I know it's not really practical, especially for the city folk. I will say they it is very rewarding to be able to hunt your own meat and get food on the table without going to the store. I have friends that never purchase store meats and shoot all their own game for meat. It can be done, it is done, but yes I know not really practical for most.

Charlie


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## Snowden (Aug 2, 2008)

Ok I think I'll bring it back to the topic... Where to find affordable raw.

I have had success posting an add in my local Craigslist for butchers, farmers and markets. So far I have been offered all the beef I want at $2.00 per pound. Lamb, Goat, Pig mixes for the same. Large meaty bones for $1.50 per lbs. Chicken, Duck, Goose for .40 - .60 cents per lbs. If you buy in bulk it brings the price down alot. I go in with another family member who feeds raw and a local girl in my area. We buy about 250-500lbs per month. Were do I store it???? A very large chest freezer. I can fit two large butchered cows in it...Where did I get it you ask? Craigslist for $150.00.

There is also a guy in NY who sells permixed raw food for dogs that gives a large discount if you buy in bulk. I think around 1.80 per lbs. In CT there is another place that does raw food for dogs/cats that gives disounts for 500lbs orders.

My best advice to all looking, put an add out and start calling. Look for ppl in your area who feed raw, get together, and buy in bulk. When you call a farm or butcher, and say that you are looking for 400lbs of raw monthly, they are more apt to lower the price for you.

I was in your shoes a few months ago. If anyone is in my area email me. I would be more than happy to help you out.

I hope this helps. 

Lindsey:biggrin:


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## claybuster (Dec 18, 2008)

Snowden said:


> Ok I think I'll bring it back to the topic... Where to find affordable raw.


I thought I was kinda on track with the affordable thing...look in the forest and get some for free!


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## claybuster (Dec 18, 2008)

Snowden said:


> In CT there is another place that does raw food for dogs/cats that gives disounts for 500lbs orders.


Maybe this is the place you were thinking of in CT?
Millers Products Page


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## Snowden (Aug 2, 2008)

claybuster said:


> I thought I was kinda on track with the affordable thing...look in the forest and get some for free!



LMAO!! You are right about the forest and that is the company I was thinking of in CT. I was not sure if I could drop names here.:smile:


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## claybuster (Dec 18, 2008)

Snowden said:


> LMAO!! You are right about the forest and that is the company I was thinking of in CT. I was not sure if I could drop names here.:smile:


I don't know if you can or not? Maybe I shouldn't have done that? I figured though that was the place you were thinking of! In all honesty I never ordered anything from and I don't care for some of their mixes. I can see a wee bit of a cereal base in there, but looks like they adding veggies to a lot of mixes. I wouldn't go for a lot of that stuff in my dogs food looking at some of the ingredients of some modern raw diets to be honest with you. They could be a good place for some raw feeders looking for parts like necks and wings?

Charlie


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## Snowden (Aug 2, 2008)

claybuster said:


> I don't know if you can or not? Maybe I shouldn't have done that? I figured though that was the place you were thinking of! In all honesty I never ordered anything from and I don't care for some of their mixes. I can see a wee bit of a cereal base in there, but looks like they adding veggies to a lot of mixes. I wouldn't go for a lot of that stuff in my dogs food looking at some of the ingredients of some modern raw diets to be honest with you. They could be a good place for some raw feeders looking for parts like necks and wings?
> 
> Charlie


I personally don't feed the mixes or care for them either. Van Gogh (my 14 month old Newf) has allergies and seizures so I don't really want to add alot of extras to his meals. 
They sell chicken, duck, and trukey necks/backs/frames. The also sell organ meat(beef ,pork,lamb,and exotics). You can get the meat ground or not. OO and whole rabbits, Mackerel, and Sardines (a fav here). I like just putting the chunked meat/bone into Van's bowl and let him chow.

Lindsey


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