# type of training from trainer questions (sorry a bit long winded)



## Rvent (Apr 15, 2012)

so I had a first appt. today for Capone with a trainer who came recommended, he works with a lot of dogs in shelters.

I talked to him for about 2 and a half hours on his training philosophy, techniques and his thoughts on my dogs behavior.
A lot of what he said made sense and seemed to be common sense based on wolf pack behavior, and mother pup correction behavior, some of his theory reminded me of Cesar Milan's, he was never aggressive with my dog, mean to him or anything like that, he was assertive in letting Capone know what was acceptable behavior and what he disagreed with. Capone is a very overly excited dog, he fixates on things (toys) he has great obedience but its a highly excited obedience, not a calm obedience.
basically his theory is that he needs to learn to be a calm obedient dog and respect that I am the leader. his way of doing this today was an exercise with his ball that he fixates on to the point of obsession, he is like a addict needing a fix, he lunges for it, stares at it with his teeth chattering. so he made him leave the ball on the ground and stood over it with his feet holding it, he wanted Capone to sit calm and ignore the ball before he would give it to him... this was to make him realize the ball is not his, it is mine and he can only have it when I say so. now I have seen Cesar Milan use this type of thing and heard a lot of people say bad thing about his methods, I am not so sure that his philosophy is totally of the wall a lot of it makes sense. the whole touch thing I understand too it would be similar to what a mother does to her pups to teach them dog etiquette.

Why do people not like this.


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## Celt (Dec 27, 2010)

If done improperly, which a great majority do (at least it seems so to me), it can cause your pup to become fearful or aggressive. People connect touching with hitting, etc. Some feel that only positive methods should be used and any "punishment" is bad. For me, it's the same as how people react to choke chains (talk about misuse, gah), which really shouldn't be used to choke. Some training methods should NOT be used without a mentor (hopefully one who knows the proper way to do it) while others can be used with very few really negative "side effects" . Hope your training goes wel.


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## lauren43 (Feb 6, 2011)

Ok so here goes. I will apologize in advance if this is long, I do love this topic.

My issues with dominance techniques or Cesar Millan style training are as follows:
(1) It assumes your dog perceives you as a dog
(2) Uses flooding as a way of training
(3) Does not work for all dogs

I'm going to start backwards up my list. I say it doesn't work for all dogs because the hope is your dog will submit. The reality is not all dogs will submit and some will even take what you're doing as a challenge...the next thing you know you have a dog with a bite history that is now more unruly than you began with. 

Flooding can sometimes cure a problem, this is dog dependent. But you are again toying with thresholds, we all have thresholds, that point when you simply you can't take it anymore. Many dogs will react by shutting down completely and letting whatever happen, happen. However some dogs will not be so compliant, remember dogs give many signals before a bite, but at the end of the day their teeth is their main source of protection. Besides the fact you are trying to train the dog, not scare the poor thing to death.

Finally and most importantly your dog knows you are not a dog. When dogs correct other dogs they do it quickly, accurately, and appropriately to the behavior they are trying to correct. We could never in a million years be as quick, agile, and accurate as another dog. Things like dominance rolls and starring in a dogs eyes can all be perceived by the dog as a challenge and you could end up in a messy situation. I know there is a lot of talk about pack leader, blah, blah, blah, guess what? The study that came up with the dominance theory/pack mentality was done on a large group of unrelated captive wolves. These wolves displayed these overly dominant behaviors because they were forced to live together in a relatively small space, which in turn caused the group to overall be on edge (besides the fact they were fighting for mates). Dogs barely lived in packs. Dogs were human made, man has been their "pack" since practically forever.

Things I can't argue with: the fact that dogs feed off our energy, so being calm is important. And *exercise*, tons of behavioral problems stem from an under stimulated dog.

As for the ball thing: I don't love it or hate it. I think with a dog that is a guarder, that method would be...interesting. I like the idea of you controlling ball time. For a dog that fixates, I would recommend, putting the ball up. He plays with it when you say he can, but he must also (and this is very important) have a good drop or release word. So when you are done, he is done.

As far as calm obedience, I guess I understand why you would want that but I'd much rather see a dog that wants to work and is happy to work, rather than a dog that is doing what it is told because either its afraid of the consequences or it knows it has no real choice in the matter.

If you are wondering I am a proponent of science based training, with the use of positive reinforcement and I do like the clicker!


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## Rvent (Apr 15, 2012)

he is very good with the commands he knows, he sits, waits, leaves it (for the most part) sometime he needs to be asked twice but gives it. he likes to run around the yard with the ball, he comes but runs past me if I grab the long lead (80ft) and tell him to wait he does and then leave he does, but he is very intent on the ball fixated, he will look at me if the ball is out of site. He likes to run around house with ball in his mouth, but leaves it when asked. 

He is a very high energy dog, and a very happy dog (for the most part). Is it bad to let him run around the yard with the ball, sometimes I do chase him a bit in the game, but not for the most part, I do call him over often to make him leave the ball and sit, when he does he gets the ball back. I thought this type of training with him was OK, trainer said while he is fixating on it like gimme gimme I have to have it, it is still excited compliance not calm, but during exercise is this really important. 

I have used clicker training with Babs, it didn't work she was afraid of the noise. He has a trust issue, he is a little scared of certain things. 

This is why paying for a trainer sucks because, there is no one standard to go by and you don't know what you get until they are there. And leave owners not knowing what is a proper way to help their dog, not make them worse.


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## StdPooDad (Mar 16, 2012)

Lauren43's reply was spot on in my opinion! She talked about the wolf study and how it doesn't relate to wolves, let alone dogs! That man, I don't even like to type his name, talks about calm submissive. As Lauren implied, calm submissive sometimes = Shut down.

Personally, I would run away..fast, from that "trainer"


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## BearMurphy (Feb 29, 2012)

I like Lauren's comments, very spot on.

If your dog is excitable I would work on impulse control. Make him wait and be calm for food, sit at the door before you open it, sit calmly for the ball when you throw it, take treats gently, etc


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## flashyfawn (Mar 8, 2012)

I don't really have anything to add to what has already been said, but I did want to post this link Dog Whisperer, Dog Psychology and Cesar Millan Basically it just goes in greater detail to what Lauren already said, about Cesar's "methods" and the serious damage that can be done. 

It can be very difficult to find a great trainer, and the problem is that absolutely anyone can hang up a sign and call themselves a dog trainer. There are ways to become certified but nothing is required, there is no regulation, unfortunately. Also (and one thing that is addressed in the above link) many people think that a positive reinforcement trainer cannot fix serious behavior problems, and that is absolutely 100% untrue. Positive reinforcement training is not just tossing treats and hoping for the best. I personally have worked with many aggressive and seriously fearful dogs and I have never been bitten. Being bitten multiple times is not a badge of honor, it's a huge flashing neon sign that you're doing something wrong. The last thing a good trainer should want to do is push or provoke a dog into biting. 

Rvent, none of this is directed personally at you, by the way, just a general paragraph for anyone who is reading and doesn't really understand the different ways of training. Just because it's on television doesn't mean it's the only way. Obviously this is a pretty big hot-button topic for people who are heavily involved in dog behavior.


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## meggels (May 30, 2010)

I would be happy happy happy to put you in touch with my trainer still, if you are rethinking this guy, 

I really like him. 

Connecticut ( CT ) Dog Training - Obedience Training & Behavior Modification


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## lauren43 (Feb 6, 2011)

Rvent said:


> he is very good with the commands he knows, he sits, waits, leaves it (for the most part) sometime he needs to be asked twice but gives it. he likes to run around the yard with the ball, he comes but runs past me if I grab the long lead (80ft) and tell him to wait he does and then leave he does, but he is very intent on the ball fixated, he will look at me if the ball is out of site. He likes to run around house with ball in his mouth, but leaves it when asked.
> 
> He is a very high energy dog, and a very happy dog (for the most part). Is it bad to let him run around the yard with the ball, sometimes I do chase him a bit in the game, but not for the most part, I do call him over often to make him leave the ball and sit, when he does he gets the ball back. I thought this type of training with him was OK, trainer said while he is fixating on it like gimme gimme I have to have it, it is still excited compliance not calm, but during exercise is this really important.
> 
> ...


I don't have any problem with him running around the yard with the ball, as long as you start and end all sessions. Basically, he doesn't have a dozen balls lying around the house and yard for his leisure, he has one ball and you tell him when it's play time and when its not. Avery is probably only obsessive about his flirt pole, so when I bring it out he's allowed to get excited of course, but then he knows he needs to sit (I don't even have to ask anymore) before I'm going to let it down and let him go after it. Sometimes I even bring it down and make him wait for a release word. And when I'm done, it goes up and away until next time.

As for the clicker, yes if you have a sensitive dog sometimes that's a challenge. They have softer clickers out there that aren't so loud, the first time I did it with Avery he ran for the hills. But now he loves it. Also you can use a word, you're simply marking the behavior you want exactly when it happens. Clickers are used because they are very accurate (well I guess that depends on the trainer) whereas the word is not quite as accurate. I use "yes" when I don't have my clicker.


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## Deaf Dogs (Apr 10, 2012)

Lights are also possible to use for a sound sensitive (or deaf lol) dog, or even a touch or hand signal... You don't have to use the big noisy box clicker they sell in pet stores. It's a training method, and a theory, not something that relies on the specific item.

When I tell people I clicker train me deaf dogs and cat, they get confused, unless they understand the fundamentals of the method.


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## marinak1982 (May 14, 2013)

Rvent I just came across this post while looking for Capone's pictures. I know that NJ is far from you, however I still want to recommend our trainers : Urban Dawgs - Red Bank Dog Training | Voted BEST DOG TRAINING in Monmouth County! and New Jersey NYC Pit Bull Dog Training - Pit Bull Guru (serving NJ and NYC) - Positive, Reward-Based Training for Pit Bull Dogs of All Ages! . The business is owned by husband and wife, the husband specializes in the bully breed training. They use positive , reward based training only. I have nothing but good things to say about them and they helped us a lot with Chelsea's fear issues. I would say give them a call or email them. Do not fall for the outdated dominance and wolf pack theories that some trainers try to throw at you.


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## xchairity_casex (Oct 8, 2011)

This is an older thread, but as has to do with anything Cesar Millian-i need to add my own 2 cents.
I have done a lot of learning, a lot of thinking, a lot of reading,observing,listening, and even some hands on experience to which has created my way of training and even my way of thinking when it comes to dog behavior.

I like Cesar Milian, and I agree with him-to a point.
I am however starting to turn away from Cesar Millain-not because of what he says as not being true-but because I think its a little different, and I think he is putting some people in the wrong mindset.

I do not like all the trainers saying
"he has to follow me as his pack leader"
and the simple reason being, that the term "pack leader" is implying something negative, something controlling, something-almost demanding and forcefull.

You cannot force nature, you cannot force a dog any better then you can force a man.
sure you can force them to go thru the motions-but why? 
people are too harsh when they think or use the terms
"pack leader"
"Dominate"

implying those things would be IMO like saying
"my dog is deliberately disrespecting me by fixating on the ball"
NO, your dog is disrespecting you, because you've never showed him what you wanted to begin with.

What Cesar talks about is rarely interpreted in the way he wants it to be-that we must work with the dog and not against him, by preventing problems and keeping a dog relaxed and fulfilled.
but what everyone is hearing is
"we need to take complete control over every aspect of our dogs lives and correct him for it"

I think people nowdays have a difficult time seeing anything as a whole, as an image and not words, instead of thinking of the words "pack leader" think and instead, imagine your dog happy, contented and listening to you in any and all scenarios, wonderful picture?
good, now how do you achieve that? back track into steps using your dogs behavior as the key and break it down
"I see my dog sitting calmly looking at me pick up the ball"
"I show my dog how to sit whenever I touch the ball"
"I must show my dog who to remain calm when im touching the ball"
"I must show my dog how to pay attention to me when im holding the ball"

I don't see anything wrong with corrections as attention getters-anything more then that is unnecessary and is only picking a fight with your dog.
if a dog bites you-and you bite back using your hand as punishment, your CHALLENGING your dog to fight you, and if you own a dog who is more then willing to fight you-they will, and when they fight you, you will lose because a bite from them will break skin or at the least causing painful bruising-a bite from your hand will do nothing more then be a slight discomfort.

I would not trust a trainer who said that they will put your dog in its place in the "pack" anymore then I would trust a trainer who said you can fix any behavioral problem in any dog using treats alone.


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## lauren43 (Feb 6, 2011)

I believe you could fix nearly every problem with treats. I do not believe corrections are needed or useful in dog training.

I whole heartily believe in the Karen Pryor Training philosophy and will never be able to adhere to corrections in training period.

Operant conditioning definition:


> Reinforcement is any event that strengthens or increases the behavior it follows. There are two kinds of reinforcers:
> 
> Positive reinforcers are favorable events or outcomes that are presented after the behavior. In situations that reflect positive reinforcement, a response or behavior is strengthened by the addition of something, such as praise or a direct reward.
> 
> ...


I personally only feel comfortable with the positive aspects of operant conditioning. And yes I know every once in a while the other aspect sneak into everyday life but I do not train with those methods. 

For example: if a dog jumps on you every time you walk in the door and you respond by walking back out the door that's negative punishment...for some dogs this is effective for other dogs this is just frustrating and can actually make the problem worse. I think thinking in the positive is the way to go. "My dog jumps on all guests" , well what do you want the dog to do when guests come over. "Not jump on guests". Ok so train a behavior that is incompatible with jumping...ie dog hears knock or doorbell, dog runs to mat to lie down (that's a small behavior chain), if you want to keep it simple just reward 4 on the floor, no more rewards for jumping...


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