# Error During Mateo's Surgery- I Am Beyond Upset



## NewYorkDogue

After dropping Mateo off at the Animal Hospital this morning, I got a call later that morning from the assisting surgeon telling me that Mateo was 3rd in line for surgery; he would call when they began the anesthesia/sedation in prep for the operation. They did call later; everything seemed fine.

Around 4 pm or so, I got a call from the surgeon telling me there was a problem: they didn't have long enough scopes/instruments in which to effectively fix the lesion on his shoulder. They could see the lesion, but could not reach it. They had been trying for 2 hours. 

He told me they had basically 3 options: 

1. To make a full cut into his joint (as opposed to the less invasive arthroscope procedure), which he did not want to do (neither did I!);
2. To close him up, and finish the surgery without doing fixing the problem; taking Mateo home the next day which would give him time to heal while they searched for and ordered the CORRECT SIZE of instrument....bringing him back in and putting him through a 2nd surgery;
3. For them to just keep trying (after 2 hours of no success).

He (and I) believed the 2nd option was the best. 

So. I am beyond upset. He told me this had never happened before, but that Mateo had so much muscle mass that it was impossible for the instruments they had on hand to reach the joint lesion.

This hospital has done scores of this type of surgery before. They met Mateo; they weighed him; they knew what his mass was like...!

He also said that they may have to go into the human-sized instrumentation in order to MAKE SURE that they have what they need for the 2nd surgery...

I just got off the phone again with him, and he was beyond apologetic; he said the orthopedic's mantra is "to MEASURE TWICE; CUT ONCE"--- and that surgeon's only goal is to go in and fix the problem. When that doesn't happen, they are as upset as the client is...

Ok, I get that. But when you have done so many of these procedures on giant breed dogs (Mateo isn't even done growing yet!)--- and not have the full set of tools for the job...?! He told me that Great Danes/Bernese/St. Bernards... even other Bordeauxs haven't had the dense muscle mass that they found on Mateo.

What kills me is that I have to put my boy through this hellish process again (in about 2 weeks.)

He will be sore, on antibiotics, and in pain. For nothing.

Kills me.

Damn.


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## chowder

I am so sorry for what you and Mateo had to go through. As you probably know from my previous posts, I have had my issues with vets , all of which have turned out badly so I can understand your frustrations VERY well. I was really hoping that since you went to this specialist and you seemed so happy with them, it would turn out okay.

Please know that we are here for the two of you if you need to rant and rave about it. Go ahead and rant all you want! It should never have happened and you have the right to be angry with them. If I were you, I would spend the next two weeks doing more research and hugging Mateo. Maybe there is something else you can do or another specialist you can consult that is better. Even if there isn't, at least you still have your baby with you.


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## magicre

oh no. not mateo. not you.

whilst i will say that these things can and do happen and it is not always the fault of the surgeon because they really cannot tell until they get in there, i'm glad to see they immediately acted upon the information they saw and did not mutilate your baby.

this is not good news; but in a way, they did act responsibly by closing him up because they did need a different set of instruments.....

i know this is not what you want to hear....and believe me, putting the dog through a second surgery is not something anyone wants to hear.....poor mateo. and you...

but i also believe they did the right thing...as did you by closing him up until the get the proper instrument so they can do it right and fix the problem once and for all.

interestingly, that they noted the sheer amount of muscle mass may not be something they are used to or expect...even if they are proponents of raw feeding...they may not see it as much on the operating table.

i hope both you and mateo recover from this...i do. you are both in my thoughts...


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## Sprocket

Must be the raw diet! 

Poor Mateo. Hopefully he understands  At least he gets to be lazy and spoiled for a little longer...:redface:

They aren't charging you extra are they?


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## liquid

Oh no. I was waiting on good news from you and Mateo.  
You did the right thing though, and the surgeon seemed really responsible about it. They made a mistake but Im glad they didnt just cut into his joint and consulted you first.
Im really glad that Mateo is okay, though. Poor baby. Spoil the crap outta him in the meantime. :redface:
If you need to vent, we're here to listen. 

But, if they charge you extra, give them hell. They should be giving you a discount!


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## NewYorkDogue

Sprocket said:


> Must be the raw diet!
> 
> Poor Mateo. Hopefully he understands  At least he gets to be lazy and spoiled for a little longer...:redface:
> 
> They aren't charging you extra are they?


No-- I will be charged for just the one (successful) surgery. 

Yeah, he's thick in the shoulders, as he should be. 

But, but... they SAW him, manipulated him, weighed and measured him....

Again.

Damn.


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## NewYorkDogue

magicre said:


> oh no. not mateo. not you.
> 
> whilst i will say that these things can and do happen and it is not always the fault of the surgeon because they really cannot tell until they get in there, i'm glad to see they immediately acted upon the information they saw and did not mutilate your baby.
> 
> this is not good news; but in a way, they did act responsibly by closing him up because they did need a different set of instruments.....
> 
> i know this is not what you want to hear....and believe me, putting the dog through a second surgery is not something anyone wants to hear.....poor mateo. and you...
> 
> but i also believe they did the right thing...as did you by closing him up until the get the proper instrument so they can do it right and fix the problem once and for all.
> 
> interestingly, that they noted the sheer amount of muscle mass may not be something they are used to or expect...even if they are proponents of raw feeding...they may not see it as much on the operating table.
> 
> i hope both you and mateo recover from this...i do. you are both in my thoughts...


I was relieved that they did not cut into his shoulder (and through all of that muscle mass) with a scalpel....that they called me first with options.

This is the thing. This animal medical hospital is the cream of the crop in NYC. In fact, I met a vet in Central Park over the weekend walking her dogs and we were talking about Mateo's surgery. She asked who was doing it, I told her, and she said "good!-- you have got the best surgeon for the job... I know who that is."

Believe me, I realize they are beyond embarrassed, and feel horrible (he has said as much.) And re, I realize things happen when you actually get in the body cavity that you just can't anticipate.

It just sucks. My heart hurts for my boy. He's the one paying the price for this error. Well, him and my mental/emotional state...

But nothing to do but get him home, help him heal....so he can finally get his shoulder issue taken care of, second time around...


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## Donna Little

I can't even imagine your frustration! No one wants to think about their dog undergoing an unnecessary procedure. :frown: 
I took a rescue in for a spay before and discovered she was _already_ spayed and was so upset, and it wasn't even my dog.
I'm so sorry you have to face this again as well as your precious boy. Give him lots of hugs and kisses and treats and what the hell ever else he wants until he's through with his successful REAL surgery.
We're pulling for you both. Big hug for Mateo from the Little clan...


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## bullyBug

Awww man. Super frustrating.  Try not to let it keep you too down for too long. Spoil the heck out of your boy and on to the next one!


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## magicre

NewYorkDogue said:


> I was relieved that they did not cut into his shoulder (and through all of that muscle mass) with a scalpel....that they called me first with options.
> 
> This is the thing. This animal medical hospital is the cream of the crop in NYC. In fact, I met a vet in Central Park over the weekend walking her dogs and we were talking about Mateo's surgery. She asked who was doing it, I told her, and she said "good!-- you have got the best surgeon for the job... I know who that is."
> 
> Believe me, I realize they are beyond embarrassed, and feel horrible (he has said as much.) And re, I realize things happen when you actually get in the body cavity that you just can't anticipate.
> 
> It just sucks. My heart hurts for my boy. He's the one paying the price for this error. Well, him and my mental/emotional state...
> 
> But nothing to do but get him home, help him heal....so he can finally get his shoulder issue taken care of, second time around...


it absolutely sucks. and nothing can be said to change that.

even when my surgeon gave me mrsa he had never had a case of it before, and the mrsa was on the staples...not his fault, but it surely sucked for me.

even when everything is right things go wrong.

but make no mistake. it sucks. it really sucks.


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## MollyWoppy

All you can do is to try to think that Vets and Dr's are only human too, they do make mistakes.
But, you wish like hell that those mistakes were made on other people's dogs, not your own. 
I'm sorry, that totally sucks. Especially when you (and we) thought it would all be over and done with by now and Mateo would be on his way to recovery.
Poor Mateo and poor you, having to go through 2 recoveries in a young energetic dog, that's hard.


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## xellil

Yep. They are the "experts." They should have known. That's why you pay them a fortune to do stuff like this.

Too bad you can't get pain and suffering for Mateo. Personally, I don't think they should charge you a dime since this was their (huge) screwup.

A good reputation doesnt' give anyone a pass on poor performance. In fact, I would expect he be held to higher standards since he's "top in the field."

I'm sorry for Mateo and you. Please give him a big hug for me.


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## IslandPaws4Raw

That really SUCKS! I'm so sorry you have to go through this. Poor Mateo! I'm sure they will do all they can to set it right.


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## meggels

Oh no, I'm so sorry, poor you and poor mateo


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## BeagleCountry

ohmygod! Things like this happen but never to us. Your anger and frustration are certainly understandable. When trusting the best of the best there is no place else to go. I would have made the same decision as you. Please give Mateo a gentle hug and let us know how both of you are doing.


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## bett

Buzz kill.
So, what's the next step?


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## DandD

I'm so sorry to hear this about Mateo!!! I just love him!

Dodger & Daisy send him lots of big, squishy hugs and super sloppy boxer kisses!!!!


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## creek817

Oh no!!! But to be honest, I was incredibly relieved to see that's what the problem was. I read the title of your thread and thought MUCH worse. Luckily, he is young, and strong, and raw-fed, and he should recover really quickly and happily from both procedures.

Poor kid. =\


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## NewYorkDogue

creek817 said:


> Oh no!!! But to be honest, I was incredibly relieved to see that's what the problem was. I read the title of your thread and thought MUCH worse. Luckily, he is young, and strong, and raw-fed, and he should recover really quickly and happily from both procedures.
> 
> Poor kid. =\


I know. But my worry is that having to drag him through this surgery again may open the door for more complications...

But really, I have no other option at this point. This is going to test my stamina and patience and emotions--- and I hope it's harder on me than it will be on Mateo.


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## Khan

Oh jeez, when I read the title my heart sank! Don't get me wrong, this totally sucks!! I find it strange that this surgeon would not have this equipment on site. At least they didn't decide to just cut through him to get the job done since they were already in there! 
I agree that since they saw him you would think they would have a better idea of the tools needed. I go back to when Zeus had his first TPLO. The surgeon saw him, knew his size etc. yet when I spoke to him after the surgery, he explained that the plate they had to use was A LOT bigger then what they thought/typically use. So I guess this would be somewhat the same. 
Yes they are human, and yes they can make mistakes and things happen; but THEY are the experts! THEY of all people should be able to react to those unknown issues and still get their job done!
Give Mateo lots of TLC. He's young and STRONG (that's a FACT!) If he was a couch potato we wouldn't be having this discussion!! LOL
Khan sends slobbers!


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## NewYorkDogue

xellil said:


> Yep. They are the "experts." They should have known. That's why you pay them a fortune to do stuff like this.
> 
> Too bad you can't get pain and suffering for Mateo. Personally, I don't think they should charge you a dime since this was their (huge) screwup.
> 
> A good reputation doesnt' give anyone a pass on poor performance. In fact, I would expect he be held to higher standards since he's "top in the field."
> 
> I'm sorry for Mateo and you. Please give him a big hug for me.


I may get the equivalent of pain and suffering compensation. When I picked up Mateo today, the surgeon talked with me a lot about what happened, how devastating it was to the whole surgical team... and how he didn't sleep well last night (me either!). He and the head surgeon are talking with the financial dept. for an adjustment on my final bill, due to the circumstances. Well, at least this shows good faith. Yes, it happens, but this was negligence on their part; they should have been prepared for EVERYTHING, pure and simple. In fact, he said he understood if I wanted to blame them... We shall see how this all plays out.

Meanwhile, this is Mateo after I brought him home. He is out of it.

I owe this kid a lot: beach time, swimming, lots of green grass... and play. I will make that happen, just not yet. 

Just have to get through all of this...


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## xellil

oh that picture makes me cry! Poor Mateo. bless his heart. Oh jee, all for nothing. man, they shaved alot off.

I know that the people will suffer alot more than Mateo will. He'll be happy as punch once he gets over the anesthesia. 

I hope the surgeon would understand if you wanted to blame him. Who else would be to blame? And honestly, they should take a financial loss on this. He should lose a little sleep. I am glad he cares enough to lose sleep. Maybe he's not so bad after all.


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## magicre

ooooooooooooooooooooooohhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh, poor baby.....

i am glad the surgeon lost sleep. he should.

i know things happen. i hope they do right by both of you......that he's apologising all over the place and feeling guilty already tells me there is maybe some honour in there....


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## Nana52

Poor baby Mateo. This was a major boo-boo on the surgeon's part, no doubt about it, but I'll at least give him points (just a few) for "owning up" to it. I'd wager the majority would be back pedaling and doing their best to lay blame elsewhere (and charging for 2 surgeries to boot ..... I think I must know some pretty crappy vets!). I'm just so sorry this happened and that he (and you) have to go through another surgery. Hugs and best wishes to you and you boy.


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## NewYorkDogue

Yes, my gut instinct is that there is integrity within this surgeon, surgical staff, and hospital. That is really what their reputation stands on. They are non-profit; they also treat guiding and service dogs for free...

I feel that, in the end, things will be okay. This is what I tell myself. 

Now........patience.

BTW, the surgical assistant vet with whom I had been talking with, told me today that, he is a resident. Which translates into working sometimes 100 hours/week. He makes $29,000. per year.


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## Nana52

NewYorkDogue said:


> Yes, my gut instinct is that there is integrity within this surgeon, surgical staff, and hospital. That is really what their reputation stands on. They are non-profit; they also treat guiding and service dogs for free...
> 
> I feel that, in the end, things will be okay. This is what I tell myself.
> 
> Now........patience.


The gut never lies (well, once I followed my gut, turned out to be indigestion, but that's another story) :biggrin: Little Big Man will come through it all okay. I just know it.


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## chowder

It sounds like you got a really unique set of veterinarians and should probably stick with them. When I lost my two chows in one month I not only didn't get an apology, but was out almost $10,000 so they are not all understanding and up front like that. You and Mateo seem to be in good hands with yours and they seem to be honorable (which is kind of unusual now-a-days). 

Give your baby some extra hugs because he is so darn adorable in that picture!


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## lovemydogsalways

Poor boy. I am sorry that you and him have to go through that again.


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## 1605

NewYorkDogue said:


> Yes, my gut instinct is that there is integrity within this surgeon, surgical staff, and hospital. That is really what their reputation stands on. They are non-profit; they also treat guiding and service dogs for free...
> 
> I feel that, in the end, things will be okay. This is what I tell myself.
> 
> Now........patience.
> 
> BTW, the surgical assistant vet with whom I had been talking with, told me today that, he is a resident. Which translates into working sometimes 100 hours/week. He makes $29,000. per year.


I am so sorry to read this thread; what Mateo and you have been going through. It's so hard on everyone concerned.

Regardless of the fact that the vet/surgeon are apologetic, you are understandably angry, frustrated, and upset. No one likes to see a loved one in pain. Your emotions were all centred on this event and then the recovery process, only to have it all pushed back.

If you trust that they are doing right by you & your beloved Mateo, then all you can do is allow them to make things right. 

Yes, patience.

We're all sending positive thoughts to you, & Mateo.


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## Khan

Oh poor thing... 
He looks so little in this picture. Which makes you feel even worse. 
I'm glad to hear that the surgeon lost sleep, and feels bad. I promise you, they are not all that way! When Shelby went into kidney failure from being over medicated by that vet. It took phone call after phone call, after in person visits, and almost 4 months later I still heard crickets!! When I finally got a call, it was too little too late and she could have cared less!!


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## Janet At Nutro

Oh no. Poor Mateo, and poor you.
You and him were on my mind all day yesterday.
I had expected to hear good news about his surgery.
I am so sorry that you both have to go through all of this.


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## Chocx2

Awe poor guy, I hate when there feeling bad. I hope all goes well for him.


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## BeagleCountry

Just checking to see how y'all are doing. Does Mateo have to go up and down stairs to relieve himself?


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## NewYorkDogue

BeagleCountry said:


> Just checking to see how y'all are doing. Does Mateo have to go up and down stairs to relieve himself?


This morning Mateo is better-- drinking water and eating most of his food. And the "spark" is coming back in his eyes. 

Fortunately, there are only 3 steps up to my apartment building, and he is handling them like a pro. I have a feeling by next week he will want to be running and playing- but I have to keep him to leashed walks until he goes into surgery again (2 weeks).

This will be the summer of surgery and strange haircuts for Mateo... and lots of patience for both of us!


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## NewYorkDogue

Khan said:


> Oh poor thing...
> He looks so little in this picture. Which makes you feel even worse.
> I'm glad to hear that the surgeon lost sleep, and feels bad. I promise you, they are not all that way! When Shelby went into kidney failure from being over medicated by that vet. It took phone call after phone call, after in person visits, and almost 4 months later I still heard crickets!! When I finally got a call, it was too little too late and she could have cared less!!


Wow--- your vet's behavior during such a traumatic time is inexcusable! I am fortunate in that Mateo's surgeon and assistant have been very much in communication; he is even away at a wedding in Michigan this weekend but has taken the time to call, to check in with my pup-- and has encouraged me to email him as well. This support goes a long way, and it helps.

As does all the support I have here on this forum!


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## MollyWoppy

To be honest, your vet sounds beyond awesome to me. It sounds like he is genuinely upset about what happened and is not just spouting words to calm you down.
I know it's a real pissoff what happened, but pup's do bounce back remarkably quickly.
That photo is so, so cute all huddled up like that. And, wow, they do shave a big area don't they? Poor little pup, he's probably wondering why his leg feels so cold right now!


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## lily

Very traumatic for mateo and yourself,you would think they would have been over prepared for such a large dog!i suppose that you can console yourself that he is as healthy as he is,you look after him so well,thinking about you and of course mateo,karen


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## bullyBug

NewYorkDogue said:


>


Oh boy, is he ever going to milk this.


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## magicre

bullyBug said:


> Oh boy, is he ever going to milk this.


i was thinking the same thing....

and all he'll have to do is look at her. with THOSE eyes.


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## KittyKat

MollyWoppy said:


> To be honest, your vet sounds beyond awesome to me. It sounds like he is genuinely upset about what happened and is not just spouting words to calm you down.
> I know it's a real pissoff what happened, but pup's do bounce back remarkably quickly.
> That photo is so, so cute all huddled up like that. And, wow, they do shave a big area don't they? Poor little pup, he's probably wondering why his leg feels so cold right now!


Agreed! You have an awesome vet! 

Doggie will be fine! More human worry than dog worry!


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## DaneMama

I'd hope they don't charge you for that surgery at all. It should be complimentary for that crap. 

I've seen too many orthopedic surgeries and all the surgeons have WAY more crap than they need. Basically they pack everything they own. There's no excuse in my book for that to he justified. 

I hope Mateo is doing well and that he's comfortable!


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## NewYorkDogue

DaneMama said:


> I'd hope they don't charge you for that surgery at all. It should be complimentary for that crap.
> 
> I've seen too many orthopedic surgeries and all the surgeons have WAY more crap than they need. Basically they pack everything they own. There's no excuse in my book for that to he justified.
> 
> I hope Mateo is doing well and that he's comfortable!


DaneMama-- I was hoping you would share your opinion on this. Again, I am split between being heart-broken that I have to put my pup through this surgery again.... and pissed-off (and dumb-founded) that this top-rated hospital, with the most recommended orthopedic surgeon in all of NYC, were not prepared for what MAY occur during this procedure. The fact that they are so distressed themselves, does express a sense of professional failure on their part. They do want to make amends... what that means, exactly, is a bit cloudy right now. As I stated before, they approached the financial dept. of the hospital even before I said anything.

Some people I talk to say I should be talking with an attorney, some say yes, the hospital should eat the cost of this mishap, some say, well...they will take extra care of Mateo and provide extra support to make sure everything goes perfectly during the second surgery...

My stance at this moment is, they cannot undo what has been done. In order to compensate for their lack of preparedness (and inordinate stress to my dog-physically and otherwise) is to reduce or eliminate the cost of both surgeries. I am not going to be angry about it, simply stand my ground. Amends need to be made.

So far they have bent over backwards in their sensitivity to me and Mateo. When they receive their special-ordered instruments and we schedule the next surgery, the financial resolution needs to be brought up and addressed. I will keep you all in the loop...

BTW, Mateo is getting back to his normal self, but he's walking slowly, and sleeping a lot. Still not eating as much as normal, but almost. I have to know he's going to be better than ever after all of this is over...


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## wolfsnaps88

Wow. Sorry to hear this. It IS kind of ridiculous. Sure, mistakes can happen but they knew ahead of time what they were dealing with and should have been prepared. 

I think the best thing to do at this point is accept it and know it could have been worse. He is doing better now. He will heal and he will be fixed next time. I do think they should do it free or cut the bill in half or something because it was THEIR fault and they wasted YOUR time and put YOUR dog through unnecessary surgery. 

I know you will keep us updated. I will be watching the whole way. And he is half bald :O LOL

I look forward to seeing him get all muddied up in the park again


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## xchairity_casex

i would have been sooo Pissed


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## Khan

bullyBug said:


> Oh boy, is he ever going to milk this.


Must be the picture. That was the first thing I thought too!!


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## NewYorkDogue

bullyBug said:


> Oh boy, is he ever going to milk this.


Nah... I am used to those eyes, that sad pitiful expression. Even when he's happy, he has that "Oh, woe is me..." look about him. 

I'm hip to it. But it is disarming to strangers... kind of a good thing, actually. 

And.......... I'm not even sure how I can spoil him or love him up more than I already do.


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## Khan

NewYorkDogue said:


> Nah... I am used to those eyes, that sad pitiful expression. Even when he's happy, he has that "Oh, woe is me..." look about him.
> 
> I'm hip to it. But it is disarming to strangers... kind of a good thing, actually.
> 
> And.......... I'm not even sure how I can spoil him or love him up more than I already do.


Give him time, he will show you how!!!


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## magicre

i can well understand how you feel.....about this egregious mistake...

i also wonder how well surgeons understand the musculature of a raw fed dog, be they proponents of raw or not....

and i am thinking that's what tripped them up.....


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## NewYorkDogue

magicre said:


> i can well understand how you feel.....about this egregious mistake...
> 
> i also wonder how well surgeons understand the musculature of a raw fed dog, be they proponents of raw or not....
> 
> and i am thinking that's what tripped them up.....



Something to consider, I suppose. I do take them at their word as far as why they couldn't complete his procedure, as odd as it is.

Here is an section of the "Case Summary" written up by the surgical staff: "...Right shoulder arthroscopy revealed a large osteochondral lesion (cartilage defect) of the humerus. Due to Mateo's thick shoulder musculature...we could visualize the joint with the scope but we could not access the lesion to debride the defect....This is a rare occurrence that was unforeseen..."

My primary vet also received a copy of this report and he was baffled. He basically stated what DaneMama said--- that orthopedists usually clean out their tool drawers in order to have any and every possible tool/instrument available. 

Anyway... back to the raw-fed muscle. Mateo's been raw since 8 weeks, and very active, for a mastiff. Wrestling, running (in spurts); some swimming... The fact that they've done this surgery on other giant breed dogs, yet never had a problem until now.... is interesting. I could hear the head surgeon in the background when they first called me saying, "...Mateo's shoulder is just so MEATY!..."

Yup. From being raw fed with REAL MEAT.


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## magicre

i agree with natalie when she says surgeons are usually prepared for any eventuality....and if not, the instrument is somewhere in the building.....to be retrieved.

i just cannot help but think about either extreme overweight people in surgery or extremely muscled dogs....

and yeah, i can just see the surgeon saying...MY G'D. wouldja look at that muscle?


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## NewYorkDogue

magicre said:


> i agree with natalie when she says surgeons are usually prepared for any eventuality....and if not, the instrument is somewhere in the building.....to be retrieved.
> 
> i just cannot help but think about either extreme overweight people in surgery or extremely muscled dogs....
> 
> and yeah, i can just see the surgeon saying...MY G'D. wouldja look at that muscle?


Haha-- thanks. It does help to look at the lighter side of the situation... 

Probably if he had gone under with soft, mushy muscles, they would have sailed right through the procedure...hwell:


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## magicre

i don't mean to make light of my baby...and what he's going to have to face...

i am glad of two things...

one. that he has such great muscles.

and

two. it was arthroscopic and not a great surgical incision. so they did stop it to be redone again later and it will still hopefully be the lesser of the two.

with the right tool, of course.

and, no you should not have to pay anything.


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## Dude and Bucks Mamma

OMG! How did I miss this???

Poor boy! I'm so glad they didn't just decide to forge on ahead. It sucks that he will have to go through it again but at least you didn't have a vet who made his own call to avoid the potential conflict and just cut through the joint.

Keep us updated!


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## NewYorkDogue

Latest update: Friday one of the surgeons emailed me to say the longer instruments they special ordered had arrived; he wanted to meet with the head orthopedist on Monday (today) to review and make sure that what they have WILL WORK this time. No chance for mistakes... If all is a go, then he will be put into the surgical schedule (not sure when that will be, hopefully soon!)

Meanwhile, Mateo has healed from the original surgical trauma, and is as strong as an ox... just the slight limping as before. But he really wants to run and play...I let him, a bit. 

Just a side note for those who do not live in such a densely populated place as I do--- I envy you. I probably could avoid having to tell Mateo's story like, a billion times a day...:wacko: I'm thinking of making a printed version and just handing it out...


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## Herzo

Good luck big guy.


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## NewYorkDogue

So his second surgery is set for tomorrow (Wednesday). I am so looking forward to having this over and done with...

However. I just received an email from the head surgeon that, after reviewing my case with the financial dept. of the hospital, the "terms" of the compensation is that, basically, there is no compensation. I will be responsible for the balance of the first surgery after they have successfully completed the second surgery (which is free of charge.) The only thing thay are "working hard to achieve" is some sort of financial assistance towards some type of rehabilitation facility post-surgery (but even that is not a sure thing.)

I am stressed out, and have lost faith--- that they would actually do the right thing and make amends for the failure of the first surgery. Not to mention that I will actually have to pay ADDITIONAL costs in paying for extra trips in a pet-friendly car service to and from the hospital (at least $100), as well as time away from work...

How does that even make sense-- essentially for me to pay extra for their mistake?

But, my main priority and concern is Mateo. Putting him through the trauma of an additional surgery, anesthesia, meds, recovery time. He is the one who is paying the price... and that just breaks my heart.

I have left messages with the financial dept. of the hospital, and both surgeons with whom I had been in contact. I also sent a reply to the surgeon who informed me of the "terms"... I was not happy, but remained civil in my wording. At the end, I said that this discussion has to continue and the issue be resolved.

(Yeah. Good luck, right?)

I really don't want this to turn into a battle. But I also did not want to enter into this second surgery with more stress and loss of faith...

Okay. Rant is over. Thanks for listening...


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## Herzo

Well I just have to say that the whole thing sucks. You would think they would take something off for there mistake.

I will be thinking of Mateo and hoping all goes well. I can see this happening here where I live but you would think a place as big as New York they would have everything.


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## NewYorkDogue

Herzo said:


> Well I just have to say that the whole thing sucks. You would think they would take something off for there mistake.
> 
> I will be thinking of Mateo and hoping all goes well. I can see this happening here where I live but you would think a place as big as New York they would have everything.


Yeah. Sometimes you just want to believe that people would do the right thing. The ethical thing...

It does suck.


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## chowder

NewYorkDogue said:


> Yeah. Sometimes you just want to believe that people would do the right thing. The ethical thing...
> 
> It does suck.


It does suck but the important thing is that he gets better. Wait until after he's home a day or two.....then go after them!

Back when I was working in Vermont in the 80's, we used to actually cut a person's bill significantly is anything happened to the animal or if something went wrong with the surgery. But, that was a small town. Down here when I went to the University Vet School and the specialty hospitals, its always been full price no matter what (and we are talking thousands of dollars the last two times). I think big cities and specialists are actually worse then smaller places as far as financial matters are concerned, yet they are the ones that have more leeway in the amount they make.


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## magicre

and i have to say it seems a little soon for a second surgery.

take them to small claims court after you have found another surgeon and let mateo recover....maybe?


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## 1605

NewYorkDogue said:


> So his second surgery is set for tomorrow (Wednesday). I am so looking forward to having this over and done with...
> 
> However. I just received an email from the head surgeon that, after reviewing my case with the financial dept. of the hospital, the "terms" of the compensation is that, basically, there is no compensation. I will be responsible for the balance of the first surgery after they have successfully completed the second surgery (which is free of charge.) The only thing thay are "working hard to achieve" is some sort of financial assistance towards some type of rehabilitation facility post-surgery (but even that is not a sure thing.)
> 
> I am stressed out, and have lost faith--- that they would actually do the right thing and make amends for the failure of the first surgery. Not to mention that I will actually have to pay ADDITIONAL costs in paying for extra trips in a pet-friendly car service to and from the hospital (at least $100), as well as time away from work...
> 
> How does that even make sense-- essentially for me to pay extra for their mistake?
> 
> But, my main priority and concern is Mateo. Putting him through the trauma of an additional surgery, anesthesia, meds, recovery time. He is the one who is paying the price... and that just breaks my heart.
> 
> I have left messages with the financial dept. of the hospital, and both surgeons with whom I had been in contact. I also sent a reply to the surgeon who informed me of the "terms"... I was not happy, but remained civil in my wording. At the end, I said that this discussion has to continue and the issue be resolved.
> 
> (Yeah. Good luck, right?)
> 
> I really don't want this to turn into a battle. But I also did not want to enter into this second surgery with more stress and loss of faith...
> 
> Okay. Rant is over. Thanks for listening...


Someone once told me "never take a no from someone who cannot give you a yes". IOW, is the surgeon ACTUALLY the one that makes the financial decisions? Or is it someone higher up? And who would that be? 

Maintain your position that it was the hospital's responsibility to ensure that everything was in place for the original surgery to happen: it was THEIR diagnosis and THEIR procedure. YOU had nothing to do with their error. Therefore, they need to either eat the entire cost of the first procedure (somewhat unlikely) or give you a drastic reduction in the original bill. The major point being that IF they had done their homework in the first place, the second operation would not have been required.

Basically, you need to work out what you need to make yourself financially and emotionally whole. Then decide what you are willing to take to settle the matter. 

Right now they are holding you emotionally hostage. You are so caught up in poor Mateo's problems that you may not feel you have the strength to fight this battle. But you have already made a good start with the emails & calls. Try to hold on.

Sending lots of positive energy to both you & Mateo....


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## Sprocket

I would NOT pay for the first surgery. That is outrageous that they expect you to pay for their screw up!

There is no way you have to pay for that. I would get legal assistance, after Mateo is done and out, I would contact a lawyer. The vet cannot MAKE you pay and you have options!

Sending good thoughts to you and Mateo for his surgery tomorrow. I hope everything goes smoothly.


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## 1605

Sprocket said:


> I would NOT pay for the first surgery. That is outrageous that they expect you to pay for their screw up!
> 
> There is no way you have to pay for that. I would get legal assistance, after Mateo is done and out, I would contact a lawyer. The vet cannot MAKE you pay and you have options!


Unless we are talking about double-digit costs for this surgery, involving a lawyer in this would just cost too much. Perhaps going the "lawyer's letter" route? (Considerably less expensive than actually hiring a lawyer to sue.) Then if the numbers involved are within the range of small claims court, taking it there.

This isn't the type of case that legal aid/legal assistance would cover as it's a civil issue over what is, in most states, property. (Yes, we all consider our pets part of our family, but unfortunately, the law doesn't usually see them that way.)

FWIW,


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## Sprocket

SubMariner said:


> Unless we are talking about double-digit costs for this surgery, involving a lawyer in this would just cost too much. Perhaps going the "lawyer's letter" route? (Considerably less expensive than actually hiring a lawyer to sue.) Then if the numbers involved are within the range of small claims court, taking it there.
> 
> This isn't the type of case that legal aid/legal assistance would cover as it's a civil issue over what is, in most states, property. (Yes, we all consider our pets part of our family, but unfortunately, the law doesn't usually see them that way.)
> 
> FWIW,


I meant contact a lawyer for advice, not hire one and pull Judge Judy on their ass :wink:


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## Janet At Nutro

I will be thinking of you and Mateo tomorrow, and hoping that all goes well.


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## NewYorkDogue

SubMariner said:


> Someone once told me "never take a no from someone who cannot give you a yes". IOW, is the surgeon ACTUALLY the one that makes the financial decisions? Or is it someone higher up? And who would that be?
> 
> Maintain your position that it was the hospital's responsibility to ensure that everything was in place for the original surgery to happen: it was THEIR diagnosis and THEIR procedure. YOU had nothing to do with their error. Therefore, they need to either eat the entire cost of the first procedure (somewhat unlikely) or give you a drastic reduction in the original bill. The major point being that IF they had done their homework in the first place, the second operation would not have been required.
> 
> Basically, you need to work out what you need to make yourself financially and emotionally whole. Then decide what you are willing to take to settle the matter.
> 
> Right now they are holding you emotionally hostage. You are so caught up in poor Mateo's problems that you may not feel you have the strength to fight this battle. But you have already made a good start with the emails & calls. Try to hold on.
> 
> Sending lots of positive energy to both you & Mateo....


SubMariner: Thank you for slicing through this cloud of mishaps and emotional confusion. I do feel like I am caught in a place of no power, essentially. But I am also just exhausted...

I spoke with the head surgeon last night by phone. She has been the one who has been advocating on my behalf, with the CEO, CFO and Financial Dept. of the hospital. We talked a great deal; she knows where I stand, and says she is still fighting on my behalf... Yes, maybe going directly to the CEO is the one who, ultimately can say "yes."

To be honest, I reminded myself to stay calm and not get caught up in the frustration of the situation because, well...within 12-15 hours she would be opening up my dog's body. No need to stress out the surgeon at this point!

She explained that, as a major surgical hospital, they possess every instrument available on the market for small animal procedures. Could they have predicted that they would have to source tools from the human sphere of medicine? I don't know the answer to that. Actually they were considering ordering instruments made for livestock, but the portal hole would be even larger, thus more damage to the muscle tissue...so human grade it is.

Thank you again for the anchoring support. I will hold on, stay calm, and work towards making sure Mateo receives the best possible outcome.


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## NewYorkDogue

Sprocket said:


> I would NOT pay for the first surgery. That is outrageous that they expect you to pay for their screw up!
> 
> There is no way you have to pay for that. I would get legal assistance, after Mateo is done and out, I would contact a lawyer. The vet cannot MAKE you pay and you have options!
> 
> Sending good thoughts to you and Mateo for his surgery tomorrow. I hope everything goes smoothly.


Yes. Almost everybody I speak to is shouting the same thing: "Don't Pay!" But I have to make some smart moves, and work within the paradigm in which I find myself. This hospital has a large legal force I am sure. I am also not naive enough to think that the head surgeon's "negotiations" on my behalf have been sifted through the legal dept. If the surgeon flatly admits negligence (however well intentioned), that would make the hospital liable. If I received compensation outright... same thing. 

Thank you for your justified indignation- I know you- and others- are feeling my pain!





SubMariner said:


> Unless we are talking about double-digit costs for this surgery, involving a lawyer in this would just cost too much. Perhaps going the "lawyer's letter" route? (Considerably less expensive than actually hiring a lawyer to sue.) Then if the numbers involved are within the range of small claims court, taking it there.
> 
> This isn't the type of case that legal aid/legal assistance would cover as it's a civil issue over what is, in most states, property. (Yes, we all consider our pets part of our family, but unfortunately, the law doesn't usually see them that way.)
> 
> FWIW,


You are correct about pets being viewed as property. I did a lot of research on the legalities of medical animal negligence. The bottom line is, our companion animals do not possess many rights--- they are not even compensated for pain and suffering (although the humans can sue for that...)

The Animal Legal Defense Fund is a good resource-- lots of good info and case studies.


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## MollyWoppy

Good luck, hope everything goes well today. I'm sure it will, they will be extra careful with Mateo after what's already happened. Hopefully you'll soon have a happy, non-limping, pain free pup running around and all the heartbreak will have been so worthwhile.


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## NewYorkDogue

magicre said:


> and i have to say it seems a little soon for a second surgery.
> 
> take them to small claims court after you have found another surgeon and let mateo recover....maybe?


That's interesting about it being maybe too early for the second attempt for repair. Originally they said 10 days to 2 weeks. It has been exactly 2 weeks; I dropped Mateo off this morning. But when I spoke with the surgeon last night, she honestly said that there may be more still some internal swelling in the shoulder, but that if we wait longer, more scar tissue would develop. So they believed this to be the best window of opportunity (a guess, at best, really.)

Small Claims may be an option. No need for a pricey attorney. I have to sit with this for awhile and see if I have the stomach to pursue this...

Meanwhile, please-- good, healing thoughts and prayers for my Mateo boy. He goes under later today...

And I will be waiting for that phone call. The one that says he flew through this with no problems... that everything went as smooth as silk. 

That everything is going to be okay...


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## NewYorkDogue

MollyWoppy said:


> Good luck, hope everything goes well today. I'm sure it will, they will be extra careful with Mateo after what's already happened. Hopefully you'll soon have a happy, non-limping, pain free pup running around and all the heartbreak will have been so worthwhile.


This is what I want to be focusing on...and visualizing Mateo running around and sliding into some huge mud puddle, like the hippo that he is.


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## Nana52

I have no financial/legal advise I'm afraid, but surely do feel your frustration. However, sending good healing mojo your way for Mateo, hoping he comes through with flying colors to get on with a healthy, happy, pain-free life.


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## Herzo

Nothing but good thoughts and lots of drool sent your way.


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## kathylcsw

I hope that all goes well today. I can imagine that you are a nervous wreck considering how it went last time. Will keep you and Mateo in my thoughts.


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## magicre

i think, at this point, for the sake of your sanity and mateo's health and recovery, just focus on what's in front of you and him....

i will have my puppy in my thoughts...and you, too....

let us know how it goes.


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## NewYorkDogue

magicre said:


> i think, at this point, for the sake of your sanity and mateo's health and recovery, just focus on what's in front of you and him....
> 
> i will have my puppy in my thoughts...and you, too....
> 
> let us know how it goes.


So simply put...and just so true. And yes, just doing this will ease me back into a sane place...

As always, our puppy is well held in our thoughts. 

BTW, it's just after 2 pm est, and they just called to say that Mateo was in the pre-anesthesia room, just about ready to go in.

Taking a couple of deep breaths...


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## magicre

taking a few deep breaths myself.

for you. for our baby.....i have a feeling he's gonna be okay.


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## creek817

I imagine he should be just about finished by this point - hope all went beautifully! Give him lots of cuddles from all of us =)


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## Chocx2

I'm so sorry to hear about Mateo, I would be so pissed too


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## bullyBug

I hope Mateo is comfy at home now!


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## NewYorkDogue

creek817 said:


> I imagine he should be just about finished by this point - hope all went beautifully! Give him lots of cuddles from all of us =)


I just received a call from the head surgeon-- everything went well and they were able to successfully complete the surgery arthroscopically using their fancy human grade instruments.

YEA!!!!!!!! :cheer2::cheer2::cheer2:

She did say that there was a bit more swelling than they expected, but that may be because of the channels (?) that were opened during the previous surgery, allowing the fluid they need to inject to collect in more spaces. Well, something like that... Anyway, the swelling should dissipate a lot within 12-24 hours. 

We talked a lot about his rehabilitation, after I asked her to define what "moderate activity" actually means. The first 2 weeks post-op are crucial: bare minimum walks, on leash. He will be reassessed at the 2 weeks mark and then I have the option of taking him to the rehabilitation center they have within the hospital. They have a swimming pool there with an underwater treadmill (Mateo would love that!-- well, the swimming pool part at least).

It will take approximately 6-8 weeks for the fibro-cartilage to form on his shoulder joint, so he has to take it easy during this time. Gotta get him in some water for swimming, in addition to the physical therapy I want to do with him...the best exercise for his shoulder.

Also, she informed me that she had twisted the CEO's arm enough for them to reduce the cost of the surgery by 10%, plus $100. for transportation costs, plus several free sessions to get me started at this rehab center. That's enough for me. It shows good faith; besides, I wasn't out for blood (or money)--- just wanted the hospital to give me a break....to make amends. To bend, just a little...

Now. Just looking forward to bring my boy home tomorrow and spoiling him like crazy.


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## Nana52

So glad to hear that all went well. And that the hospital is coming through with some recompense (do you like that word). Road to recovery, here comes Mateao!


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## chowder

I'm so glad it went well and he is on his way to recovery!! I was holding my breath all day waiting to hear about the big boy. I just hate having the big squishy face guys have to go under the knife.

Give him lots of extra hugs and kisses from all of us!


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## MollyWoppy

I'm thrilled for you guys too. It's only uphill from here on in, every day he will be a little bit better and everyday he is well on the way to being a normal happy pup.
Thats good news about them coughing up a bit more as well. Glad everything is turning out so well after all the stress you've been under the past couple of weeks.


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## DaneMama

Yay! So glad to hear things went well...Keep us posted on his recovery!


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## creek817

Fantastic!!! I want to see pictures of him in the swimming pool! Enjoy your spoiling day tomorrow =)


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## Herzo

Good news, now that's what we want to hear. Glad everything went well and the hospital is doing there part.


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## nortknee

I think we're all having "Mateo's Adventures" withdrawals...so glad this time around things went as planned. 

Can't wait to see the big boy back to his normal self!


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## magicre

oh, this is such a relief...i'm glad it went well for the big baby.....i'm glad you're okay.....

part one is over now......and i think this is the worst of it, the surgery....'course, it should be funny trying to keep that big boy down..once he gets his sea legs back....

good news is he's going to be okay. and you are too.


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## Donna Little

Yay! So glad to hear it went as planned this time! Give him a big hug and smooch from me and tell him to do what the Dr orders and complete his rehab like a good boy. Looking forward to more videos of him romping in the park in the near future!


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## NewYorkDogue

I picked Mateo up this evening--- and he looked good! Didn't even seem as doped up as last time. The swelling is a bit more, and his limp is more pronounced post-op... but that is to be expected. He's still a happy boy. 

Anyway, another bonus: when I went to pay the cashier, my balance was substantially lower than what I had expected...like almost 1 grand lower! 
I asked if that was the whole balance- she said, "Yes; disregard the numbers on the bottom of the invoice; you're all done!"

Okay then. Not a problem... :biggrin:

Looking forward to Chapter 2: REHAB!

Maybe I'll make another thread...

Thank you, thank you, thank you, everyone... for all the support. This forum is magical...!


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## bullyBug

Awesome update! Get well soon Mateo!!


P.s. Nothing marks the end of a chapter like a photograph...


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## NewYorkDogue

bullyBug said:


> Awesome update! Get well soon Mateo!!
> 
> 
> P.s. Nothing marks the end of a chapter like a photograph...


I agree. Here's a quick blurry one. After Mateo slept for 4 straight hours, he stood up, then sat down, just staring at....nothing, really. 

Anesthesia + meds= spacey dog.


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## meggels

Oh Mateo, I just want to grab that face and kiss him.

Im glad that he's ok and out of surgery. 

I hope we can see photos and or videos when he's on that underwater treadmill lol


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## Janet At Nutro

Yay! Mateo is home!
I am so glad to hear the good news!


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## magicre

good news all around.....whew.

so now it's recovery time....for both of you and all of us.

i am relieved. both for mateo and his surgery and you and your wallet.

glad they came through.


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## Herzo

I too would like to squish that face aaaaaaaaaaaaahhhhhhhhh. He looks so pathetic poor boy.


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## Savage Destiny

Glad he's on the mend!


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## 1605

NewYorkDogue said:


> I just received a call from the head surgeon-- everything went well and they were able to successfully complete the surgery arthroscopically using their fancy human grade instruments.
> 
> YEA!!!!!!!! :cheer2::cheer2::cheer2:
> 
> She did say that there was a bit more swelling than they expected, but that may be because of the channels (?) that were opened during the previous surgery, allowing the fluid they need to inject to collect in more spaces. Well, something like that... Anyway, the swelling should dissipate a lot within 12-24 hours.
> 
> We talked a lot about his rehabilitation, after I asked her to define what "moderate activity" actually means. The first 2 weeks post-op are crucial: bare minimum walks, on leash. He will be reassessed at the 2 weeks mark and then I have the option of taking him to the rehabilitation center they have within the hospital. They have a swimming pool there with an underwater treadmill (Mateo would love that!-- well, the swimming pool part at least).
> 
> It will take approximately 6-8 weeks for the fibro-cartilage to form on his shoulder joint, so he has to take it easy during this time. Gotta get him in some water for swimming, in addition to the physical therapy I want to do with him...the best exercise for his shoulder.
> 
> Also, she informed me that she had twisted the CEO's arm enough for them to reduce the cost of the surgery by 10%, plus $100. for transportation costs, plus several free sessions to get me started at this rehab center. That's enough for me. It shows good faith; besides, I wasn't out for blood (or money)--- just wanted the hospital to give me a break....to make amends. To bend, just a little...
> 
> Now. Just looking forward to bring my boy home tomorrow and spoiling him like crazy.


And well you should!

Now take a BIG, SLOW BREATH IN.... and OUT.... 

It's good to hear that you are feeling more empowered & better about your situation with the hospital financially. We all like to think that we can handle anything when it comes to our pets' healthcare, but that is not always the case. You're doing so well!!!

Many doggie hugs & kisses to you & Mateo. 

Here's to a complete and well earned recovery!


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## xellil

I hope he loses the spacy look soon! Poor fellow. and I'm very glad he's doing ok. Now you can get on with getting him better.

Free rehab sessions are nothing to sneeze at; it's good they are doing that for you. I can't remember how much the water treadmill was in Indiana but it wasn't cheap.


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## Sprocket

Yay Mateo!!!

Poor guy. He looks so out of it. 

Nothing but up from here! :biggrin:


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## NewYorkDogue

Well Mateo has certainly lost that spacey look, LOL! One week post-op and he's got lots of energy and focus...and he's his same happy self. 

Stitches out next week, then a consultation with the rehab center creating a program for him, and he is on his way for a nice strong recovery. 

Meanwhile, it's about patience on my part as well, reigning in his desire to romp...!


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## creek817

Great news =)


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## Janet At Nutro

That is great news about Mateo!


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## Khan

Been busy; but keeping Mateo and you in my thoughts! Glad to hear all is going well! When Zeus had his TPLO surgery we had him in the underwater treadmill right after his 2 week check up! It was great. Really helped speed up his recovery.


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## NewYorkDogue

Thanks for the good thoughts... and the photos of Zeus in pt doing the underwater treadmill. It looks like in the end, he liked the experience...?

I am pretty sure Mateo will enjoy the water, at least. Not sure about the treadmill part... but I plan to take photos, too!


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## Khan

NewYorkDogue said:


> Thanks for the good thoughts... and the photos of Zeus in pt doing the underwater treadmill. It looks like in the end, he liked the experience...?
> 
> I am pretty sure Mateo will enjoy the water, at least. Not sure about the treadmill part... but I plan to take photos, too!


He actually really like it. When the thing first starts to fill up, he would kinda look like, what the...then he would start to drink it, as tho that would help! He would do 3 intervals, and the first couple times, he only walked for 2 min.; rest; 2 min.; rest; 2 min.; rest. It took us 40 min to drive to the place, and he was literally in the thing for less then 10 min! He was in really good shape prior to surgery; but at the end of those first couple sessions, he was super tired! As he got stronger the time and speed increased, and his rest recovery time got faster. If I remember correctly we had weekly sessions (I don't think we did bi-weekly) for about 6 or 8 weeks. We also had daily walks, that progressed from a couple blocks in the beginning, to longer and longer until he was fully released.


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## Sprocket

How is the big love bug doing? Getting cabin fever yet?


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## NewYorkDogue

Sprocket said:


> How is the big love bug doing? Getting cabin fever yet?


Well, the love bug is hanging in there-- mostly trying to deal with the HEAT here in NYC. Ugh. But, short walks are in order, so the heat is helpful--- sort of zaps the excess energy...

But. Mateo loves, loves, loves climbing stairs. Even as a pup, if he saw a flight of stairs, he had to climb up. Even now, if given a choice between a ramp and stairs, he will pull towards the stairs. Weird. 

Anyway, he is not supposed to do stairs right now. Well, I let him out in the hallway to meet some friends, and forgot, momentarily his love of the staircase. Zoom... up he scrambled to the third floor- fast, too! He's not so fast coming down, mostly because he's so top-heavy... so I helped him down.

I hope he did not create any damage to his shoulder...my bad!

He still has his limp, as it's healing, but he's a strong guy-- I think he just disregards any discomfort he might feel...


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## magicre

i'm sorry, but we need pictures of the big lug.


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## NewYorkDogue

magicre said:


> i'm sorry, but we need pictures of the big lug.


Okay! Tomorrow, again, will be in the mid-90's, so....any photos of him will be of a big, panting dog with possible drool...


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## chowder

NewYorkDogue said:


> Okay! Tomorrow, again, will be in the mid-90's, so....any photos of him will be of a big, panting dog with possible drool...


Yep, the whole East Coast is a heat disaster. We don't take pictures of the dogs here when it's been 106 degrees. Shade is a drooling mess and Rocky molts all his fur off and looks like some sort of rabid wolf with mange. NOT pretty dogs in this heat! 

But Mateo will still be cute. He's got that kind of a mug!


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## magicre

drooling is acceptable. 

I NEED A MATEO FIX.


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## NewYorkDogue

Here are a few I took right out the door, so the drool hasn't started to collect...


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## creek817

awwwwww squishy face =)

He's got his lipstick out again! hahahahaha


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## magicre

creek817 said:


> awwwwww squishy face =)
> 
> He's got his lipstick out again! hahahahaha


i guess he thinks this is a photo opp......and is showing off LOL

he is about the squishiest face i've ever seen.


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## NewYorkDogue

magicre said:


> i guess he thinks this is a photo opp......and is showing off LOL
> 
> he is about the squishiest face i've ever seen.


Yup. And his other, official name is "squish." He answers to it, too. 

Well, re, you've got a squishy face in your signature pic. Just in a much smaller package...


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## magicre

yes. yes i do. and i love him dearly. but he's not mateo.


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