# Earthborn Primitive IS THE BEST FOOD FOR THE MONEY



## RCTRIPLEFRESH5

Whenever most people ask what the ebst food for the money is, i usually respond with taste of the wild if you can afford the 1.50/pound plus range...and diamond naturals/4 health for those who are dead broke.

but earthborn primitive naturals is THE BEST FOOD FOR THE MONEY.

at 39.99 per 28 pound bag from doggiefood , with free shipping on two bags, and considering it is imo the best food out right now regardless of price, I see no reason why anybody feeding kibble should NOT at least TRY this food, if they aren't broke.

totw cost me 49 and change at my feed store.
2 bags of totw from doggie food is 92 shipped

so per pound primitive natural is 1.43
totw is 1.53

and earthborn is a much better food



hey meggles how do i get a rep position i need a job


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## Caty M

I think it's a great food for the money. But not the best out there, there are no non 'meat meal' meats in there at all.

Earthborn:
Turkey Meal, Chicken Meal, Whitefish Meal, Potatoes, Chicken Fat (preserved with mixed tocopherols, a source of vitamin E), Dried Egg Product, Tomato Pomace, Apples, Blueberries, Carrots, Peas, Spinach, Garlic, Yucca Schidigera Extract, Taurine, Cottage Cheese, L-Lysine, DL-Methionine, Beta-Carotene, Calcium Carbonate, Zinc Oxide, Magnesium Proteinate, Copper Sulfate, Manganous Oxide, Niacin, D-Calcium Pantothenic Acid, Vitamin A Supplement, L-Carnitine, Vitamin B12 Supplement, L-Ascorbyl-2-Polyphosphate (source of Vitamin C), Ferrous Sulfate, Biotin, Riboflavin (Vitamin B2), Thiamine Hydrochloride (Vitamin B1), Calcium Iodate, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride (Vitamin B6), Vitamin D3 Supplement, Folic Acid, Manganese Proteinate, Iron Proteinate, Zinc Proteinate, Copper Proteinate, Dried Lactobacillus Plantarum Fermentation Product, Dried Enterococcus Faecium Fermentation Product, Dried Lactobacillus Casei Fermentation Product, Dried Lactobacillus Acidophilus Fermentation Product.

Orijen:
Fresh boneless chicken*, chicken meal, fresh boneless salmon*, turkey meal, herring meal, russet potato, peas, sweet potato, fresh boneless turkey*, fresh whole eggs*, fresh chicken liver*, fresh boneless lake whitefish*, fresh boneless walleye*, sun-cured alfalfa, pea fiber, chicken fat (preserved with mixed tocopherols), organic kelp, pumpkin, chicory root, carrots, spinach, turnip greens, apples, cranberries, blueberries, licorice root, angelica root, fenugreek, marigold flowers, sweet fennel, peppermint leaf, chamomile, dandelion, summer savory, rosemary, vitamin A, vitamin D3, vitamin E, niacin, thiamine mononitrate, riboflavin, d-calcium pantothenate, pyridoxine, folic acid, biotin, vitamin B12, zinc proteinate, iron proteinate, manganese proteinate, copper proteinate, selenium yeast, Lactobacillus acidophilus, Enterococcus faecium.


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## RCTRIPLEFRESH5

Caty M said:


> I think it's a great food for the money. But not the best out there, there are no non 'meat meal' meats in there at all.
> 
> Earthborn:
> Turkey Meal, Chicken Meal, Whitefish Meal, Potatoes, Chicken Fat (preserved with mixed tocopherols, a source of vitamin E), Dried Egg Product, Tomato Pomace, Apples, Blueberries, Carrots, Peas, Spinach, Garlic, Yucca Schidigera Extract, Taurine, Cottage Cheese, L-Lysine, DL-Methionine, Beta-Carotene, Calcium Carbonate, Zinc Oxide, Magnesium Proteinate, Copper Sulfate, Manganous Oxide, Niacin, D-Calcium Pantothenic Acid, Vitamin A Supplement, L-Carnitine, Vitamin B12 Supplement, L-Ascorbyl-2-Polyphosphate (source of Vitamin C), Ferrous Sulfate, Biotin, Riboflavin (Vitamin B2), Thiamine Hydrochloride (Vitamin B1), Calcium Iodate, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride (Vitamin B6), Vitamin D3 Supplement, Folic Acid, Manganese Proteinate, Iron Proteinate, Zinc Proteinate, Copper Proteinate, Dried Lactobacillus Plantarum Fermentation Product, Dried Enterococcus Faecium Fermentation Product, Dried Lactobacillus Casei Fermentation Product, Dried Lactobacillus Acidophilus Fermentation Product.
> 
> Orijen:
> Fresh boneless chicken*, chicken meal, fresh boneless salmon*, turkey meal, herring meal, russet potato, peas, sweet potato, fresh boneless turkey*, fresh whole eggs*, fresh chicken liver*, fresh boneless lake whitefish*, fresh boneless walleye*, sun-cured alfalfa, pea fiber, chicken fat (preserved with mixed tocopherols), organic kelp, pumpkin, chicory root, carrots, spinach, turnip greens, apples, cranberries, blueberries, licorice root, angelica root, fenugreek, marigold flowers, sweet fennel, peppermint leaf, chamomile, dandelion, summer savory, rosemary, vitamin A, vitamin D3, vitamin E, niacin, thiamine mononitrate, riboflavin, d-calcium pantothenate, pyridoxine, folic acid, biotin, vitamin B12, zinc proteinate, iron proteinate, manganese proteinate, copper proteinate, selenium yeast, Lactobacillus acidophilus, Enterococcus faecium.


in kibble fresh meats are mainly for show. have you noticed that once orijen increased their fresh meats from 70 to 80 their protein dropped? that is because there is less meat in the food. meat meals are true meat when it comes to kibble. also orijen is loaded with potatoes and peas, while earthborn has one type of potato after all the meat meals. also orijen is 2.40 per pound for the cheapest.

orien is a good food, but i prefer earthborn.

one other thing ive noticed about orijen is the bags are always greasy. i was tempted to buy orien at the feed store, and i noticed that the 6 fish was literally MOLDED to the kibble....you know how bags are usually loose, and you can grab a bag, and pinch it...well the orijen was molded to the kibble ha. and was greasy


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## RCTRIPLEFRESH5

Caty M said:


> I think it's a great food for the money. But not the best out there, there are no non 'meat meal' meats in there at all.
> 
> Earthborn:
> Turkey Meal, Chicken Meal, Whitefish Meal, *Potatoes*, Chicken Fat (preserved with mixed tocopherols, a source of vitamin E), Dried Egg Product, *Tomato Pomace, *Apples, Blueberries, Carrots, Peas, Spinach, Garlic, Yucca Schidigera Extract, Taurine, Cottage Cheese, L-Lysine, DL-Methionine, Beta-Carotene, Calcium Carbonate, Zinc Oxide, Magnesium Proteinate, Copper Sulfate, Manganous Oxide, Niacin, D-Calcium Pantothenic Acid, Vitamin A Supplement, L-Carnitine, Vitamin B12 Supplement, L-Ascorbyl-2-Polyphosphate (source of Vitamin C), Ferrous Sulfate, Biotin, Riboflavin (Vitamin B2), Thiamine Hydrochloride (Vitamin B1), Calcium Iodate, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride (Vitamin B6), Vitamin D3 Supplement, Folic Acid, Manganese Proteinate, Iron Proteinate, Zinc Proteinate, Copper Proteinate, Dried Lactobacillus Plantarum Fermentation Product, Dried Enterococcus Faecium Fermentation Product, Dried Lactobacillus Casei Fermentation Product, Dried Lactobacillus Acidophilus Fermentation Product.
> 
> Orijen:
> Fresh boneless chicken*, chicken meal, fresh boneless salmon*, turkey meal, herring meal, *russet potato, peas, sweet potato*, fresh boneless turkey*, fresh whole eggs*, fresh chicken liver*, fresh boneless lake whitefish*, fresh boneless walleye*, sun-cured alfalfa, *pea fiber*, chicken fat (preserved with mixed tocopherols), organic kelp, pumpkin, chicory root, carrots, spinach, turnip greens, apples, cranberries, blueberries, licorice root, angelica root, fenugreek, marigold flowers, sweet fennel, peppermint leaf, chamomile, dandelion, summer savory, rosemary, vitamin A, vitamin D3, vitamin E, niacin, thiamine mononitrate, riboflavin, d-calcium pantothenate, pyridoxine, folic acid, biotin, vitamin B12, zinc proteinate, iron proteinate, manganese proteinate, copper proteinate, selenium yeast, Lactobacillus acidophilus, Enterococcus faecium.


ive bolded the bad ingredients of each food. to be fair tomato pomace(the filler in earthborn) is prob the best filler you can put in a food.
i did not bold egg product in earthborn, as eggs are good for dogs, and i think even an egg product is better than nothing, although ill give orijen the win for using fresh whole egg.
egg product in earthborn isnt a substantial portion anyways, same with tomato pomace. the only bad ingredient is potatoes


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## Caty M

I still like to see fresh meats. They aren't as processed as meat meals.


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## Unosmom

While I dont think its the best, I think its slightly better then Totw for less. I also got it from doggie food (cant find it locally) plus some treats and shipping was free over $50, so pretty good deal overall. Uno seems to like it and his glossy coat has returned since nutrisca, so I'll keep it in rotation.


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## RCTRIPLEFRESH5

Unosmom said:


> While I dont think its the best, I think its slightly better then Totw for less. I also got it from doggie food (cant find it locally) plus some treats and shipping was free over $50, so pretty good deal overall. Uno seems to like it and his glossy coat has returned since nutrisca, so I'll keep it in rotation.


 yeah doggie food iss the best deal for me. free shipping on two bags..and 39.99 a bag can';t be beaten. i still don't see how other foods are better. yo uall are crazy


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## meggels

Glad you are liking it Dave *it's Dave right?* 

My guys did well on it and they loved it. I really believe in the company and think they are a pretty decent company. 

Where are you from? i can email my old boss and see if he has any positions in your area or get in touch with the territory manager from whatever area you are from.


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## RCTRIPLEFRESH5

meggels said:


> Glad you are liking it Dave *it's Dave right?*
> 
> My guys did well on it and they loved it. I really believe in the company and think they are a pretty decent company.
> 
> Where are you from? i can email my old boss and see if he has any positions in your area or get in touch with the territory manager from whatever area you are from.


yeah it's dave hha how can you forget my name we hd our little debate yesterday ha

im in new jersey, and am unemployed partly because i am spoiled, and don;t want a job...so it'd be great to have a ob id actually care about..like this one.
although if i recall, you didn't specifically choose to work for earthborn, you were randomly assigned?


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## meggels

There was an ad on Craigslist but it didn't specify what food company, though, I was relieved when it was Earthborn. 



You'd have to be a good worker. I can't recommend someone who isn't going to do a good job  Have you had a job before?


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## RCTRIPLEFRESH5

meggels said:


> There was an ad on Craigslist but it didn't specify what food company, though, I was relieved when it was Earthborn.
> 
> 
> 
> You'd have to be a good worker. I can't recommend someone who isn't going to do a good job  Have you had a job before?


haha yeah ive had jobs before, i was partly joking(but also partly serious ). i am also a full time student, but i have time for a job too...as i dont hang out with friends too often, since it adds up cost wise.


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## RCTRIPLEFRESH5

RCTRIPLEFRESH5 said:


> haha yeah ive had jobs before, i was partly joking(but also partly serious ). i am also a full time student, but i have time for a job too...as i dont hang out with friends too often, since it adds up cost wise.


some things in my favor are that i love earthborn(and a fair bit of other grain free foods), i have a passion for directing people to these foods to help their pets leave foods like purina, and i think the fact that i rescue dogs is in my favor ha.


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## meggels

Well, it pays pretty damn well, and it's actually a perfect job for college students. The person I "gave" my position too when I left PA was the 19 year old who was part of the family I was living with and he goes to school full time for engineering. 

What kind of jobs have you had before? You have to have really great people skills, know when to recommend foods and when you need to back off and leave people be. It's a very "soft" sales job. You cannot offend customers (which means you can't talk badly about any other foods, which can be tough when you are passionate about dog foods).

What part of NJ are you from? I'm fairly certain my manager covers NJ, he lives there lol. I think he does PA/NJ/DE.


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## baggie

RCTRIPLEFRESH5 said:


> in kibble fresh meats are mainly for show. have you noticed that once orijen increased their fresh meats from 70 to 80 their protein dropped? that is because there is less meat in the food. meat meals are true meat when it comes to kibble. also orijen is loaded with potatoes and peas, while earthborn has one type of potato after all the meat meals. also orijen is 2.40 per pound for the cheapest.
> 
> orien is a good food, but i prefer earthborn.
> 
> one other thing ive noticed about orijen is the bags are always greasy. i was tempted to buy orien at the feed store, and i noticed that the 6 fish was literally MOLDED to the kibble....you know how bags are usually loose, and you can grab a bag, and pinch it...well the orijen was molded to the kibble ha. and was greasy


The "MOLDED" as you put it would be vacuum sealing. That's a good thing. I have no idea what you mean by greasy. The outside of the bag was greasy?


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## RCTRIPLEFRESH5

meggels said:


> Well, it pays pretty damn well, and it's actually a perfect job for college students. The person I "gave" my position too when I left PA was the 19 year old who was part of the family I was living with and he goes to school full time for engineering.
> 
> What kind of jobs have you had before? You have to have really great people skills, know when to recommend foods and when you need to back off and leave people be. It's a very "soft" sales job. You cannot offend customers (which means you can't talk badly about any other foods, which can be tough when you are passionate about dog foods).
> 
> What part of NJ are you from? I'm fairly certain my manager covers NJ, he lives there lol. I think he does PA/NJ/DE.


 I CARE MORE ABOUT ENJOYING MY job then my pay really...i mean i live at home, so im not dying for money. I just want to contribute to bills here, as right now i just cause the bills to get higher lol. it doesnt help I demand my dad buy high quality dog food .

I did some book keeping and filing for my dad's business which lasted for a few years, and then i decided to take a break from that when i started college. Also was the secretary, answering the phones and scheduling appts.


baggie said:


> The "MOLDED" as you put it would be vacuum sealing. That's a good thing. I have no idea what you mean by greasy. The outside of the bag was greasy?


what i had noticed was that some bags were like that, and some werent...it just looked odd to me. As far as the grease, the bags are black and i saw watermarks on them...idk just didnt look like the best bags.
totw makes some nice bags, although they are so hard to open...an you cant reseal them.
earthborn makes the best bags....with a ziplock zipper.


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## meggels

Oh, it's just a plus that it pays well lol (generally demo positions pay 12-14 an hour, EB was higher up at 14 for me but I have lots of customer service/sales/retail experience).


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## RCTRIPLEFRESH5

RCTRIPLEFRESH5 said:


> Whenever most people ask what the ebst food for the money is, i usually respond with taste of the wild if you can afford the 1.50/pound plus range...and diamond naturals/4 health for those who are dead broke.
> 
> but earthborn primitive naturals is THE BEST FOOD FOR THE MONEY.
> 
> at 39.99 per 28 pound bag from doggiefood , with free shipping on two bags, and considering it is imo the best food out right now regardless of price, I see no reason why anybody feeding kibble should NOT at least TRY this food, if they aren't broke.
> 
> totw cost me 49 and change at my feed store.
> 2 bags of totw from doggie food is 92 shipped
> 
> so per pound primitive natural is 1.43
> totw is 1.53
> 
> and earthborn is a much better food
> 
> 
> 
> hey meggles how do i get a rep position i need a job


id also lie to point out that dogfoodadvisor estimates primitive naturals carbs to be at 28...and orijen fish to be at 31.
they also describe orijen fish to have a generous amount of fish(same with totw wetlands)...but describe primitive as having an abundance of fish.
that's my peer reviewed evidence for why prim is betta


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## Caty M

RCTRIPLEFRESH5 said:


> id also lie to point out that dogfoodadvisor estimates primitive naturals carbs to be at 28...and orijen fish to be at 31.
> they also describe orijen fish to have a generous amount of fish(same with totw wetlands)...but describe primitive as having an abundance of fish.
> that's my peer reviewed evidence for why prim is betta


Orijen adult's carbs are at 25.. the fish is usually higher and it's usually lower in fat.


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## Caty M

Also.. they don't know what the percentage each ingredient is.. no one does.. except the company.

So arguing over the terms generous and abundance is being pedantic imo!


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## RawFedDogs

RCTRIPLEFRESH5 said:


> in kibble fresh meats are mainly for show. have you noticed that once orijen increased their fresh meats from 70 to 80 their protein dropped? that is because there is less meat in the food. meat meals are true meat when it comes to kibble. also orijen is loaded with potatoes and peas, while earthborn has one type of potato after all the meat meals. also orijen is 2.40 per pound for the cheapest.


Your information is a little off about the meats and meals. Meats are a superior protein. You seem to be more concerned with volume than quality of protein. And meats are true meats, meals are mostly bone and connective tissue with little meat in them. Just because Orijen has a couple of different potatoes in the doesn't mean they have more volume. There is no way of telling which has the most potatoes.


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## RCTRIPLEFRESH5

RawFedDogs said:


> Your information is a little off about the meats and meals. Meats are a superior protein. You seem to be more concerned with volume than quality of protein. And meats are true meats, meals are mostly bone and connective tissue with little meat in them. Just because Orijen has a couple of different potatoes in the doesn't mean they have more volume. There is no way of telling which has the most potatoes.


sure meats are ideal in a raw diet...but in a kibble meats are the true meats meals are the true emat because when you see it listed as an ingredient you know most of it is acctually in tehre. when met is listed barely an is in the kibble. since no kibble will ever have a good portion of fresh meats, i prefer meals. orijen gets most of its meats from meals also...so im concerned with quality as well bill


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## RawFedDogs

I don't think you understand what I'm saying. Meals have very little meat in them. Meal is the ground up carcas of the animal AFTER the human usuable meat has been removed. Meal is not the ground up carcas. Its the ground up carcus after meat has been removed. SO that means that a meal is mostly bone and connective tissue with what little meat the deboning machines couldn't remove.


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## CorgiPaws

Earthborn:
Turkey Meal, Chicken Meal, Whitefish Meal, *Potatoes*, Chicken Fat (preserved with mixed tocopherols, a source of vitamin E), *Dried Egg Product,* *Tomato Pomace, Apples, Blueberries, Carrots, Peas, Spinach, Garlic, Yucca Schidigera Extract*, Taurine, 

Orijen:
Fresh boneless chicken*, chicken meal, fresh boneless salmon*, turkey meal, herring meal, *russet potato, peas, sweet potato,* fresh boneless turkey*, fresh whole eggs*, fresh chicken liver*, fresh boneless lake whitefish*, fresh boneless walleye*, *sun-cured alfalfa, pea fiber, *chicken fat (preserved with mixed tocopherols)




RCTRIPLEFRESH5 said:


> ive bolded the bad ingredients of each food. to be fair tomato pomace(the filler in earthborn) is prob the best filler you can put in a food.
> i did not bold egg product in earthborn, as eggs are good for dogs, and i think even an egg product is better than nothing, although ill give orijen the win for using fresh whole egg.
> egg product in earthborn isnt a substantial portion anyways, same with tomato pomace. the only bad ingredient is potatoes


I've bolded the species-inappropriate ingredients, included in the first 15 slots of the ingredient list. 
Orijen's use of whole eggs trumps Earthborn's egg product too. 


I think there is an unnecessary obsession with protein content in kibbles. A natural diet consists of 18-28% protein content. With kibbles, you're getting a lot of that protein from plant-based ingredients anyway no matter how you look at it. And then you've got to wonder how much of it is nutritionally dead or not after processing. 
Earthborn has three meat meals as the first ingredients, and that's it for the meat. So, 3 meat substances before anything else. 
Orijen has two fresh meats, and three meals as the first ingredients. So 5 meat substances before anything else. 
Earthborn's next 5 ingredients only includes one appropriate (chicken fat) ingredient. 
Orijen's next five ingredients has two appropriate ingredients, one being another fresh meat source. 
Earthborn at that point, includes ZERO additional species-appropriate foods. 
Orijen continues with yet another three fresh meat sources, and chicken fat. 

FRESH MEAT SOURCES:
Orijen: 6 **
Earthborn: 0

MEAT MEAL SOURCES:
Orijen: 3
Earthborn: 3

ADDITIONAL BENEFICIAL INGREDIENTS:
Orijen: 1 (eggs) **
Earthborn: 0 (I'm sorry but an overly processed product, added in to be even more processed does nothing.-and additional taurine would NOT be necessary if the meat content was there to supply it.)

NUMBER OF SPECIES INAPPROPRIATE INGREDIENTS IN FIRST 15:
Orijen: 5 **
Earthborn: 10


Earthborn is a good food, but it's not better than Orijen. I certainly wouldn't steer people away from this food. It IS a great food. But look at the ingredients and facts, and there's no way you can claim it to be better than Orijen.


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## RCTRIPLEFRESH5

PuppyPaws said:


> Earthborn:
> Turkey Meal, Chicken Meal, Whitefish Meal, *Potatoes*, Chicken Fat (preserved with mixed tocopherols, a source of vitamin E), *Dried Egg Product,* *Tomato Pomace, Apples, Blueberries, Carrots, Peas, Spinach, Garlic, Yucca Schidigera Extract*, Taurine,
> 
> Orijen:
> Fresh boneless chicken*, chicken meal, fresh boneless salmon*, turkey meal, herring meal, *russet potato, peas, sweet potato,* fresh boneless turkey*, fresh whole eggs*, fresh chicken liver*, fresh boneless lake whitefish*, fresh boneless walleye*, *sun-cured alfalfa, pea fiber, *chicken fat (preserved with mixed tocopherols)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I've bolded the species-inappropriate ingredients, included in the first 15 slots of the ingredient list.
> Orijen's use of whole eggs trumps Earthborn's egg product too.
> 
> 
> I think there is an unnecessary obsession with protein content in kibbles. A natural diet consists of 18-28% protein content. With kibbles, you're getting a lot of that protein from plant-based ingredients anyway no matter how you look at it. And then you've got to wonder how much of it is nutritionally dead or not after processing.
> Earthborn has three meat meals as the first ingredients, and that's it for the meat. So, 3 meat substances before anything else.
> Orijen has two fresh meats, and three meals as the first ingredients. So 5 meat substances before anything else.
> Earthborn's next 5 ingredients only includes one appropriate (chicken fat) ingredient.
> Orijen's next five ingredients has two appropriate ingredients, one being another fresh meat source.
> Earthborn at that point, includes ZERO additional species-appropriate foods.
> Orijen continues with yet another three fresh meat sources, and chicken fat.
> 
> FRESH MEAT SOURCES:
> Orijen: 6 **
> Earthborn: 0
> 
> MEAT MEAL SOURCES:
> Orijen: 3
> Earthborn: 3
> 
> ADDITIONAL BENEFICIAL INGREDIENTS:
> Orijen: 1 (eggs) **
> Earthborn: 0 (I'm sorry but an overly processed product, added in to be even more processed does nothing.-and additional taurine would NOT be necessary if the meat content was there to supply it.)
> 
> NUMBER OF SPECIES INAPPROPRIATE INGREDIENTS IN FIRST 15:
> Orijen: 5 **
> Earthborn: 10
> 
> 
> Earthborn is a good food, but it's not better than Orijen. I certainly wouldn't steer people away from this food. It IS a great food. But look at the ingredients and facts, and there's no way you can claim it to be better than Orijen.


dried egg product is debatable as a species inappropriate food.
also the majority of the innapropriate foods in earthborn are after the fat source..whereas with orijen they are before.

i still believe earthborn has more meat overall..while orijen obviously has more fresh meat since earthborn has zero.
and i disagree with bill that meat meals have zero meat.

either way for 40 dollars per bag or 1.43 per pound i will gladly feed primitive natural.
i would rather feed orijen than the other earthborns though...
and after a rotation on primitive natural and saving some money in the process might even try regional red....although i can't get over the price tag

aanother thing id like to add is that earthborns species inappropriate ingredients do not unnecessarily alter the protein of the food.
potatoes have nearly 0 grams of protein as does tomato pomace, and the veggies you highlighted. dried egg product has protein, but it's species appropriate
so we can conclude nearly all of the protein in earthborn is appropriate regardless of the fillers.


orijen contains peas and pea fiber..both high in proteins
russet potatoes and sweet potatoes are also higher in proteins than regular potatoes.
so we can conclude that less of the protein in orijen comes from meat


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## Ania's Mommy

RCTRIPLEFRESH5 said:


> russet potatoes and sweet potatoes are also higher in proteins than regular potatoes.



Aw hell. I'm an Idaho girl through and through, so I feel an urgent need to correct this statement.

Russet potatoes ARE regular potatoes. There's no difference.


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## Caty M

Ok RC.. Got a LOT wrong with your comment. Lol.

..Dried egg product IS debatable as an inappropriate food. But it certainly doesn't beat fresh eggs as per Orijen.
..Orijen likely needs less fat added in as a pure ingredient.. since there is plenty of fat in fresh meats. There are no fresh meats in Earthborn.
..Why do you believe Earthborn has more meat? Orijen has more sources and many more sources in the top 10.
..Potatoes.. white potatoes have 2g protein per 100g of raw potato. Dehydrated it's around 10% protein. Sweet potatoes also have 2g. Russet is a bit more at 3g/100g. I like to know where you learned that other potatoes are higher in protein than white. Sweet are healthier than regular for sure, though. At least for people. :smile:
..Their inappropriate ingredients might not add protein, but they add unnecessary bulk, calories and valuable stomach space. Earthborn has more than Orijen. Tomato pomace also contains 20-25% protein. It definitely adds to the total.
..Earthborn also contains peas!

So we can not conclude that less of the protein comes from meat. Research your views before you post if you are posting as fact..


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## Caty M

Ania's Mommy said:


> Aw hell. I'm an Idaho girl through and through, so I feel an urgent need to correct this statement.
> 
> Russet potatoes ARE regular potatoes. There's no difference.


They (russet and white) are both regular potatoes but are slightly different varieties. They have different USDA commodity numbers. A214 for russet and A215 for white.


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## RCTRIPLEFRESH5

Ania's Mommy said:


> Aw hell. I'm an Idaho girl through and through, so I feel an urgent need to correct this statement.
> 
> Russet potatoes ARE regular potatoes. There's no difference.


from what i know that;s not true.


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## PUNKem733

To even think EB can compare in any way way to Orijen, is just WOW...


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## Caty M

I forgot to mention that pea fiber is not a significant source of protein. It's 6-12% protein. Much lower than Earthborn's tomato pomace.

I'm not saying that Earthborn isn't a good food. It is, for sure. It's not as good as Orijen and the price reflects that. Is it worth the extra price? I'd say yes... but I'd still rather see more people making up the difference in price by adding fresh meats as toppers rather than getting a slightly better kibble.


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## RCTRIPLEFRESH5

Caty M said:


> Ok RC.. Got a LOT wrong with your comment. Lol.
> 
> ..Dried egg product IS debatable as an inappropriate food. But it certainly doesn't beat fresh eggs as per Orijen.
> ..Orijen likely needs less fat added in as a pure ingredient.. since there is plenty of fat in fresh meats. There are no fresh meats in Earthborn.
> ..Why do you believe Earthborn has more meat? Orijen has more sources and many more sources in the top 10.
> ..Potatoes.. white potatoes have 2g protein per 100g of raw potato. Dehydrated it's around 10% protein. Sweet potatoes also have 2g. Russet is a bit more at 3g/100g. I like to know where you learned that other potatoes are higher in protein than white. Sweet are healthier than regular for sure, though. At least for people. :smile:
> ..Their inappropriate ingredients might not add protein, but they add unnecessary bulk, calories and valuable stomach space. Earthborn has more than Orijen. Tomato pomace also contains 20-25% protein. It definitely adds to the total.
> ..Earthborn also contains peas!
> 
> So we can not conclude that less of the protein comes from meat. Research your views before you post if you are posting as fact..


hopefully noone is getting heated and realized this a friendlY DEBATE 

i mentioned in one of my earleir posts that orijen beats earthborn in the egg department. i mentioned fresh eggs wins over dried eggs. the eggs in both of them arent that high n the list to begin with

more fat the better n my opinion for carnivores.

orijens full of fresh meat which move down plenty of spaces once dehydrated.


and even if orijen were better than earthborn i certainly wouldnt say it was worth the price. once you get into high quality kibble, i don't believe you ill norice uch difference...and in fact a lot of people notice their dogs do worse on orijen than earthborn(and vice versa)

I THINk if you were going to consider spending more than totw or earthborn, you might as well just go for raww.....orijen or evo is just too pricey..and a waste


----------



## Ania's Mommy

Caty M said:


> They (russet and white) are both regular potatoes but are slightly different varieties. They have different USDA commodity numbers. A214 for russet and A215 for white.


I guess I just always assumed that the potatoes used in dog food WERE Russets. Generally, when referring to just "potatoes", the actual variety being referred to ARE russets. 

My bad y'all. You can get back to it now. :becky:


----------



## Caty M

Ania's Mommy said:


> I guess I just always assumed that the potatoes used in dog food WERE Russets. Generally, when referring to just "potatoes", the actual variety being referred to ARE russets.
> 
> My bad y'all. You can get back to it now. :becky:


Maybe I should be an honorary Idahoan :wink: even though I used Google!


----------



## Caty M

I still think EVO is a bit better than Orijen.

Turkey, Chicken, Turkey meal, chicken meal, potatoes, hearing meal, chicken fat, natural flavors, apples, tomatoes, potassium chloride, carrots, vitamins, cottage cheese, minerals, alfalfa sprouts, dried chicory roots, Direct-fed microbial and ascorbic acid.

Way less fruits and veggies and herbs. No protein isolates and the highest protein and fat percentages of any kibble I know. 43/22.


----------



## Caty M

RCTRIPLEFRESH5 said:


> orijens full of fresh meat which move down plenty of spaces once dehydrated.


True. But I still want to see some actual muscle meat in the ingredients. Meat is just the ground up carcass. Not to say that's BAD per se... connective tissue and bone is healthy. It just should not be the majority of the meat source. Raw feeders generally feed 10-15% bone.. not the entirety of the meat ingredients. "Chicken" as a pet food ingredient is exactly what it sounds like.. chicken meat.


----------



## RCTRIPLEFRESH5

Caty M said:


> True. But I still want to see some actual muscle meat in the ingredients. Meat is just the ground up carcass. Not to say that's BAD per se... connective tissue and bone is healthy. It just should not be the majority of the meat source. Raw feeders generally feed 10-15% bone.. not the entirety of the meat ingredients. "Chicken" as a pet food ingredient is exactly what it sounds like.. chicken meat.


yes, lie i said and like everybody here on this forum would agree, fresh real meat should be the majority of a canine's diet, and meals shouldn't even be in there. kibble is a convenience food, and is not ideal. raw is ideal. With that being aid, the only way a kibble will have a substantial amount of meat, and still be priced affordably(we will even call orijen affordable in this case), is to be made primarily of meals. Let's take nutro for example. nutro has a fresh meat, and a meal. If it had 2 meals, it would be much more meaty considered the dried state of kibble. if enough chicken could be used to equal the amount of meal in nutro than that'd be great, but the food would cost a pretty penny


----------



## Caty M

Yes, fresh meats are much better but much more expensive. My issue is that you were arguing that they were *better.* They're not. You'd likely be better off still to add fresh meats to the meal.


----------



## RCTRIPLEFRESH5

Caty M said:


> Yes, fresh meats are much better but much more expensive. My issue is that you were arguing that they were *better.* They're not. You'd likely be better off still to add fresh meats to the meal.


did u mean i was arguing that meals are better? In kibbles I believe meals are a better choice. if a person is concerned about the fresh meat content in the food they should probably be feeding raw.


----------



## Caty M

RCTRIPLEFRESH5 said:


> did u mean i was arguing that meals are better? In kibbles I believe meals are a better choice. if a person is concerned about the fresh meat content in the food they should probably be feeding raw.


Raw is better. Not everyone wants to feed raw, however. Orijen is good because it manages to have fresh meats and still contain the same protein percentage as Earthborn. I'd say therefore that Orijen has much more meat. There are no protein isolates in either food although EB's choice of filler (Tomato pomace) is high in protein.


----------



## RCTRIPLEFRESH5

Caty M said:


> Raw is better. Not everyone wants to feed raw, however. Orijen is good because it manages to have fresh meats and still contain the same protein percentage as Earthborn. I'd say therefore that Orijen has much more meat. There are no protein isolates in either food although EB's choice of filler (Tomato pomace) is high in protein.


but meat meals contain 80 percent meat once dehydrated while fresh meats contain 20. if two foods have the same protein percentage and one is from fresh meats and one is from meals, than the one from meals will have more meats.

but taking what u say about tomato pomace into account i suppose that does raise the notion that orien could have a higher amount of meat....although tomato pomace isnt a primary ingridient in the food.


----------



## Ania's Mommy

Maybe a silly question here, but is there protein in bones? 

Because if not, and if a dog food is using only meals, would the vast majority of protein content come from things like pea protein & potatoes (russet or otherwise :wink? 

This I know: meat meals contain very little meat. They are mostly bone, and some connective tissue. With a teeeny amount of meat that was probably accidentally left on the carcass during processing. 

So... 
IF there's no protein in bones 
AND a food only uses meals, 
AND the food has a high protein percentage, 
I'd have to say that most of the protein is plant based.

Right? Baring of course that there is no protein in bones. :tongue:


----------



## RCTRIPLEFRESH5

Ania's Mommy said:


> Maybe a silly question here, but is there protein in bones?
> 
> Because if not, and if a dog food is using only meals, would the vast majority of protein content come from things like pea protein & potatoes (russet or otherwise :wink?
> 
> This I know: meat meals contain very little meat. They are mostly bone, and some connective tissue. With a teeeny amount of meat that was probably accidentally left on the carcass during processing.
> 
> So...
> IF there's no protein in bones
> AND a food only uses meals,
> AND the food has a high protein percentage,
> I'd have to say that most of the protein is plant based.
> 
> Right? Baring of course that there is no protein in bones. :tongue:


there are several grades of meals


----------



## Caty M

Ania's Mommy said:


> Maybe a silly question here, but is there protein in bones?
> 
> Because if not, and if a dog food is using only meals, would the vast majority of protein content come from things like pea protein & potatoes (russet or otherwise :wink?
> 
> This I know: meat meals contain very little meat. They are mostly bone, and some connective tissue. With a teeeny amount of meat that was probably accidentally left on the carcass during processing.
> 
> So...
> IF there's no protein in bones
> AND a food only uses meals,
> AND the food has a high protein percentage,
> I'd have to say that most of the protein is plant based.
> 
> Right? Baring of course that there is no protein in bones. :tongue:


Yes! There is protein in bones. As well as connective tissue is also high in protein.

RC- Again, if there is no plant protein ingredients in either food, and Orijen contains more fresh meats, both foods have the same protein percentage, Orijen comes out on top by far.


----------



## Caty M

RCTRIPLEFRESH5 said:


> there are several grades of meals


What are the grades? There is no USDA/FDA definition for them. There are no claims of this on the bag. A company can claim they use the top grade meat meals, but either way meat meals aren't human grade and there is no way to define quality on a bag if the government doesn't allow labelling as such.


----------



## CorgiPaws

RCTRIPLEFRESH5 said:


> but meat meals contain 80 percent meat once dehydrated while fresh meats contain 20. if two foods have the same protein percentage and one is from fresh meats and one is from meals, than the one from meals will have more meats.


You're missing the point. 
Chicken meal does NOT mean dehydrated chicken MEAT. It means, dehydrated chicken PARTS. Meals are generally comprised of connective tissue, skin, bruises, tumors, fat, beaks, feet, bones, and the other things that are left AFTER the majority of the actual MEAT has been removed. 
*Chicken MEAL does NOT mean chicken MEAT. *
The parts that make up meals are not necessarily bad (aside from the things like tumors that make their way in, but that can be said of "meat" as well) but they should NOT make up a significant portion of a carnivore's diet. AS you know, the meat should be the majority, with things like bones and organs coming in more moderate amounts. That's why many like to see fresh MEAT in ADDITION to the MEALS. 

*caps are used for emphasis, not internet "yelling." :tongue:


----------



## dr tim

The meat meals will have a higher protein content on a weight basis than the meat inclusion as a rule. One must also look at the ash content of the meal to tell if it is a high grade meal or not; less ash typically means less connective tissue(harder to digest, less bone, less feathers, etc.) Low ash products are what we should strive for, thus one of the reasons a raw meat diet has good qualities.

All dogs need some ash, about 2%, and than the rest is wasted space that could be occupied by something else that might benefit the dog or cat.


----------



## xellil

AND feathers. No part wasted, in the making of the dog food.


----------



## kevin bradley

to clarify...(from the Dog Food Project website)....

"Meal"
There is no such thing as "human grade meat meal", since meat meal is never produced for human consumption and the facilities producing it are not licensed or certified to manufacture human-edible products that meet FDA standards. If you are looking for the closest comparable thing, it would be something like meats that are freeze-dried after cooking, such as for backpacking and emergency food rations. These are made by manufacturers whose processing facilities fall under the regulatory requirements of the human food industry though, not the pet food industry!

However, this doesn't mean that all meat meal is of poor quality and should be avoided. Just like with any other dog food ingredient, there are many different levels of quality, and by law pet food manufacturers are not permitted to make any statements on the product packaging or in the ingredient list in regards to the quality of what is used.

As a simple example, which I have already cited in other places on this site, "chicken meal" could be a product made only from high-quality, deboned chicken breasts, much like the kind you would find in a grocery store; or it could be made from the entire carcasses of spent egg farm hens at the end of their productive cycle. These hens put all their energy into producing eggs and do not have a lot of muscle on their skeletal frames, so you have a fairly high ratio of skin and bone vs. quality muscle meat. One defining characteristic of a high quality meat meal is a low ash content, which means the proportion of bone to meat is low.




My opinion?.... Unless you can substantiate the quality of the meat meal that Earthborn uses, its pretty hard to know for certain where this food stands. But, the same can be said for many of our dry foods.


----------



## Caty M

But is it likely that meat meal is made from deboned chicken breasts? No. You'd be paying $150 for a bag of dog food. Earthborn is not an expensive food. You ARE likely to be getting the spent egg farm hens. Earthborn also does denature their meats. I believe Champion has stated that they do not.


----------



## kevin bradley

Caty M said:


> But is it likely that meat meal is made from deboned chicken breasts? No. You'd be paying $150 for a bag of dog food. Earthborn is not an expensive food. You ARE likely to be getting the spent egg farm hens. Earthborn also does denature their meats. I believe Champion has stated that they do not.



probably a fair assumption. I won't argue that. 

I agree with RC that Earthborn is a pretty decent value. Comparable to Orijen? No.


----------



## Caty M

kevin bradley said:


> probably a fair assumption. I won't argue that.
> 
> I agree with RC that Earthborn is a pretty decent value. Comparable to Orijen? No.


That's what I've been saying the whole thread :wink:


----------



## cast71

Evo is the best bang for the buck. It's cheaper to feed than totw. Your feeding almost half the amount. It contains more animal product and less carbs than orijen. Orijen is better, because it uses human grade meats and human grade meats to make it's meat meal. There might not be any such thing as human grade meat meals, but there are no 3D meats in orijens meat meals. They do not use or denature there meats or meat meals. That means no pet grade meats, which means no 3D meats. There EU certified. 

The problem here is you haven't fed primitive natural, evo or orijen. Your comparing on paper and thats a big difference than real life. I suggest you rotate all 3 and see which you like best. My dog did better on evo, but I chose orijen because of the human grade ingredients. my dog did almost the same on both.


----------



## meggels

cast71 said:


> Evo is the best bang for the buck. It's cheaper to feed than totw. Your feeding almost half the amount. It contains more animal product and less carbs than orijen. Orijen is better, because it uses human grade meats and human grade meats to make it's meat meal. There might not be any such thing as human grade meat meals, but there are no 3D meats in orijens meat meals. They do not use or denature there meats or meat meals. That means no pet grade meats, which means no 3D meats. There EU certified.
> 
> The problem here is you haven't fed primitive natural, evo or orijen. Your comparing on paper and thats a big difference than real life. I suggest you rotate all 3 and see which you like best. My dog did better on evo, but I chose orijen because of the human grade ingredients. my dog did almost the same on both.



I thought that Orijen had less carbs with a few of their formulas being at 80% meat where as Evo was 75%?


----------



## dr tim

Do your math on figuring out the carbs in any given pet food;

100-(crude protein plus crude fat plus moisture plus crude fiber plus ash)= carbohydrates in any food.


----------



## RawFedDogs

RCTRIPLEFRESH5 said:


> sure meats are ideal in a raw diet...but in a kibble meats are the true meats meals are the true emat because when you see it listed as an ingredient you know most of it is acctually in tehre. when met is listed barely an is in the kibble. since no kibble will ever have a good portion of fresh meats, i prefer meals. orijen gets most of its meats from meals also...so im concerned with quality as well bill


You are assuming that there is a lot of meat in the meals and thats just not the case. Yes Orijen has meals also but you cannot say that most of its meat is in meals. No one knows that. I strongly suspect that the amount of meat in any meal varies greatly from batch to batch. Thats the reason for a lot of "less than" and "more than" in the nutrient list. Even the dog food manufacturer doesn't know from one batch to the next exactly what is in there.


----------



## RawFedDogs

RCTRIPLEFRESH5 said:


> but meat meals contain 80 percent meat once dehydrated while fresh meats contain 20. if two foods have the same protein percentage and one is from fresh meats and one is from meals, than the one from meals will have more meats.


No, no, no, no, a thousand times no. Meat meals do not contain 80% meat. They contain 80% "Stuff" but by far the greatest majority of that "stuff" ISN'T meat. Thats what I've been trying to tell you. That stuff is mostly bones, connective tissue and other parts of the body that humans don't eat. There is very little actualy muscle meat in meat meals.

BTW: One more point of interest. When you name a meal, chicken meal for instance, only 50% of the stuff in that meal has to come from a chicken. There is also no regulation governing the health or condition of the animals that make up the meals.


----------



## RawFedDogs

dr tim said:


> Do your math on figuring out the carbs in any given pet food;
> 
> 100-(crude protein plus crude fat plus moisture plus crude fiber plus ash)= carbohydrates in any food.


One small point I disagree with Dr. Tim. Fiber is usually carbohydrates so no need to subtract them from 100. :smile:


----------



## RCTRIPLEFRESH5

Caty M said:


> But is it likely that meat meal is made from deboned chicken breasts? No. You'd be paying $150 for a bag of dog food. Earthborn is not an expensive food. You ARE likely to be getting the spent egg farm hens. Earthborn also does denature their meats. I believe Champion has stated that they do not.


im pretty sure both do not denature...cast71 emailed them. unless you have done so yourself i think it;s unfair to ''state the facts without doing your research;;

as you yourself said


----------



## RCTRIPLEFRESH5

cast71 said:


> Evo is the best bang for the buck. It's cheaper to feed than totw. Your feeding almost half the amount. It contains more animal product and less carbs than orijen. Orijen is better, because it uses human grade meats and human grade meats to make it's meat meal. There might not be any such thing as human grade meat meals, but there are no 3D meats in orijens meat meals. They do not use or denature there meats or meat meals. That means no pet grade meats, which means no 3D meats. There EU certified.
> 
> The problem here is you haven't fed primitive natural, evo or orijen. Your comparing on paper and thats a big difference than real life. I suggest you rotate all 3 and see which you like best. My dog did better on evo, but I chose orijen because of the human grade ingredients. my dog did almost the same on both.


ve fed prim natural and evo(as treats. that was to shane though.

anyway, i disagree with evo being the best bang for the buck. i havent noticed in my experience feeding less of higher quality foods than when shane was on nutro. i fed the same of every food i bought to keep his weight stabilized!


----------



## RCTRIPLEFRESH5

dr tim said:


> Do your math on figuring out the carbs in any given pet food;
> 
> 100-(crude protein plus crude fat plus moisture plus crude fiber plus ash)= carbohydrates in any food.


i ont see ash on earthborns site..but subtracting everything else i got 29.5 percent of carbs, and if i had the ash it'd be less.


----------



## dr tim

I have always used fiber in my calculations, sorry. Here is a neat calculator for cat food but I see no difference from dog food use;

ScheyderWeb Cat Food Nutrition Calculator

As to ash content, unless they list it I would assume 8-11% based on the cost of food; cheaper foods higher, more expensive _should_ be lower, but not always.


----------



## cast71

RCTRIPLEFRESH5 said:


> im pretty sure both do not denature...cast71 emailed them. unless you have done so yourself i think it;s unfair to ''state the facts without doing your research;;
> 
> as you yourself said


http://dogfoodchat.com/forum/dry-ca...ts-acceptable-ignore-my-emails.html#post59775

Sorry to ruin your image of earthborn, but they were deceptive and contradictive in there response about denatured meats. They use pet grade meats, which have to be denatured by law. There made by midwestern pet foods, which is a similar company to diamond. Champion foods are more money for a good reason. You get what you pay for with everything, not just dog foods. Don't get me wrong I like earthborn, but there is a reason it's 40 bucks and orijen is$75. it might be in the protein, fat and carb range as orijen and evo, but it is the same quality as totw. I'm also not convinced it contains as much meat, since they don't state there animal product percentage like evo, orijen and natures vareity. The other earthborn formulas are not as good as totw praire and wetlands. If you fed the same amount of evo totw and canidae, you were definitely overfeeding evo.


----------



## Caty M

RC, I try to make sure what I type is correct.. of course sometimes I am wrong. In this case (thanks Cast) I'm not. You spout off random things as if they are fact- like potato nutrition facts, what is in meat meals, etc.


----------



## RCTRIPLEFRESH5

cast71 said:


> http://dogfoodchat.com/forum/dry-ca...ts-acceptable-ignore-my-emails.html#post59775
> 
> Sorry to ruin your image of earthborn, but they were deceptive and contradictive in there response about denatured meats. They use pet grade meats, which have to be denatured by law. There made by midwestern pet foods, which is a similar company to diamond. Champion foods are more money for a good reason. You get what you pay for with everything, not just dog foods. Don't get me wrong I like earthborn, but there is a reason it's 40 bucks and orijen is$75. it might be in the protein, fat and carb range as orijen and evo, but it is the same quality as totw. I'm also not convinced it contains as much meat, since they don't state there animal product percentage like evo, orijen and natures vareity. The other earthborn formulas are not as good as totw praire and wetlands. If you fed the same amount of evo totw and canidae, you were definitely overfeeding evo.


u are entitled to ur opinion and no i wasn't overfeeding as i fed the amount that kept shane's weight stable. my image is not ruined of earthborn, iremeber your thread perfectly well, where you doubted their claims..and how they did not respond to your email...but their first email they did tell you that they were not denatured, and maybe they have a permit or something..right now you are just speculating.

also diamond is a fine company...they are way bigger than orijen or others, so percentage wise the amount of recalls they have had isnt really all that bad


----------



## tem_sat

Caty M said:


> I forgot to mention that pea fiber is not a significant source of protein. It's 6-12% protein. Much lower than Earthborn's tomato pomace.
> 
> I'm not saying that Earthborn isn't a good food. It is, for sure. It's not as good as Orijen and the price reflects that. Is it worth the extra price? I'd say yes... but I'd still rather see more people making up the difference in price by adding fresh meats as toppers rather than getting a slightly better kibble.


Me too, me too, me too, me too...

Save the money and spend it on adding: sardines, beef heart, pork heart, chicken heart, boneless pork, boneless chicken, salmon, etc.

It's no contest.


----------



## kevin bradley

very fair point. 

$30 incremental would get you about 30 lbs of chicken every month(I go thru about a bag/month of dry food)....

AND you would know that your Dog(s) is getting real meat. Certainly a worthwhile option there.


----------



## PDXdogmom

kevin bradley said:


> very fair point.
> 
> $30 incremental would get you about 30 lbs of chicken every month(I go thru about a bag/month of dry food)....
> 
> AND you would know that your Dog(s) is getting real meat. Certainly a worthwhile option there.


My thinking and exploration of various kibbles has evolved to much the same point.

Find a really decent, moderate protein, simple kibble to use as a base food; then add up to 25% of your own fresh meats, eggs, etc. You have your bases covered with vitamins/minerals and you're also giving the benefit of fresh food. 

A kibble like Canine Caviar Chicken and Pearl Millet uses no "meal", only dehydrated chicken (#1 ingredient) and whitefish. It's primary carb is millet which is non-gluten and is one of the least irritating of all grains.
Chicken And Pearl Millet Adult

If a person is only going to feed kibble 100% exclusively, then perhaps pick something like an Orijen or EVO; but if you're willing to spend even a smidgen of time, same your bucks and pick a more simple food like the CC and supplement. Why pay for the marketing of kibbles with 35+ ingredients (including many fruits and vegetables) and 7 different meat proteins when several different meats will achieve the same results.


----------



## imthemonkey

I have been thinking about adding some fresh meat to my dogs kibble, but i have heard that you also need to use a calcium supplement when doing so? Can anyone please weigh in on this..


----------



## 1605

Forgive me if this has already been brought up (I've read MOST of the thread, but not ALL) but what a food costs to feed is not the same as the price at the check out. Why? Because you feed LESS of a better food than one of lesser quality.

Example: At one time Zio was getting 4 cups/day of "Brand X". (A food one of his trainers recommended, BTW.) He looked skinny, couldn't keep on weight, and had a lot of "output". After much research, I switched him to EVO Turkey/Chicken. He put on weight/muscle, had a better coat, & more energy than he'd ever had with "Brand X". This on 2 1/2 cups of EVO.

Needless to say, EVO costs more at the cash register than "Brand X". But is it REALLY "more expensive" to feed? Not really.


----------



## RCTRIPLEFRESH5

PDXdogmom said:


> My thinking and exploration of various kibbles has evolved to much the same point.
> 
> Find a really decent, moderate protein, simple kibble to use as a base food; then add up to 25% of your own fresh meats, eggs, etc. You have your bases covered with vitamins/minerals and you're also giving the benefit of fresh food.
> 
> A kibble like Canine Caviar Chicken and Pearl Millet uses no "meal", only dehydrated chicken (#1 ingredient) and whitefish. It's primary carb is millet which is non-gluten and is one of the least irritating of all grains.
> Chicken And Pearl Millet Adult
> 
> If a person is only going to feed kibble 100% exclusively, then perhaps pick something like an Orijen or EVO; but if you're willing to spend even a smidgen of time, same your bucks and pick a more simple food like the CC and supplement. Why pay for the marketing of kibbles with 35+ ingredients (including many fruits and vegetables) and 7 different meat proteins when several different meats will achieve the same results.


question...i know that if ''chicken'' was the first ingredient it would move down many spaces once it loses it;s water.
i know that if ''chicken meal'' were the first ingredient it would remain as the first

what about dehydrated chicken?


----------



## Caty M

RCTRIPLEFRESH5 said:


> question...i know that if ''chicken'' was the first ingredient it would move down many spaces once it loses it;s water.
> i know that if ''chicken meal'' were the first ingredient it would remain as the first
> 
> what about dehydrated chicken?


It's dehydrated before using.. so it will stay the same.


----------



## RCTRIPLEFRESH5

Caty M said:


> It's dehydrated before using.. so it will stay the same.


that is what a food should look like. if orijen had that in it..id buy it.


----------



## Caty M

It's directly followed by two grains however. I like Orijen's ingredient list because there are multiple protein sources at the beginning. Because ingredient percentages COULD be like this:

Dehydrated Chicken-20%
Ground Pearl Millet-19.5%
Whole Ground Brown Rice-19%.

Whereas in Orijen there is likely to be MUCH more meat because of the sources at the beginning of the list (they are all listed in order).
Fresh boneless chicken*, chicken meal, fresh boneless salmon*, turkey meal, herring meal, russet potato.

Even if the chicken and salmon loses a lot of water and moves down, that's still three meals before the first starch. 

Plus you can tell by the protein percentages- Orijen is 37%, CC is 26%.


----------



## RawFedDogs

Whats the difference in dehydrated chicken and chicken meal?


----------



## Caty M

I don't *think* dehydrated chicken contains bone.


----------



## RCTRIPLEFRESH5

RawFedDogs said:


> Whats the difference in dehydrated chicken and chicken meal?


dehydrated chickem sounds the same as fresh chicken after the water is taken out.
although it sounds like they remove the water before using it as an ingridient in kibble, so the amount of chciken is accurate as oppose to fresh water inclusive chicken.

caty i was just saying i liked dehydrated eats not the canine caviar formula hah. orijens formula looks better i agree.


----------



## Sapphire-Light

If you don't have accesses to orijen, wellness, solid gold, etc then EB its the best., like in my case.

My toy poodle went on hunger strike of pure whim like 3-4 days without eating , he did this like 3 times in this last month and lost weight, not even the raw tempted him :tsk: , now he is eating again and I added 20% more to his raw meals, and along wit the EB he finally is gaining weight again, the kibbles has a meaty smell that appears attracts him. :wink:


----------



## SerenityFL

SubMariner said:


> Forgive me if this has already been brought up (I've read MOST of the thread, but not ALL) but what a food costs to feed is not the same as the price at the check out. Why? Because you feed LESS of a better food than one of lesser quality.
> 
> Example: At one time Zio was getting 4 cups/day of "Brand X". (A food one of his trainers recommended, BTW.) He looked skinny, couldn't keep on weight, and had a lot of "output". After much research, I switched him to EVO Turkey/Chicken. He put on weight/muscle, had a better coat, & more energy than he'd ever had with "Brand X". This on 2 1/2 cups of EVO.
> 
> Needless to say, EVO costs more at the cash register than "Brand X". But is it REALLY "more expensive" to feed? Not really.


You bring up such a good point. I've read through many of these threads in this section and even priced out Orijen and other foods I've seen here and thought, "Hell, it's just as expensive as raw...I wouldn't save a dime" but..BUT, that's me thinking "Ok, Shasta gets a pound of meat every day" and so I thought he would get a pound of kibble every day. Or does he? My dog I had in Seattle, a Shepherd, Rott, Lab mix was 75 pounds and I am sure I did not give her over a pound of kibble a day.

So what are the guidelines to feeding something like Orijen for a 65 pound dog?


----------



## PDXdogmom

RawFedDogs said:


> Whats the difference in dehydrated chicken and chicken meal?


Dehydrated chicken has the moisture extracted and that's it. Bone is not included.

Chicken meal (or turkey meal or any other meal) as you noted in one of your earlier posts in this thread doesn't have to even contain all chicken. It does contain bone and it is cooked at high heat


----------



## PDXdogmom

SubMariner said:


> Forgive me if this has already been brought up (I've read MOST of the thread, but not ALL) but what a food costs to feed is not the same as the price at the check out. Why? Because you feed LESS of a better food than one of lesser quality.
> 
> Example: At one time Zio was getting 4 cups/day of "Brand X". (A food one of his trainers recommended, BTW.) He looked skinny, couldn't keep on weight, and had a lot of "output". After much research, I switched him to EVO Turkey/Chicken. He put on weight/muscle, had a better coat, & more energy than he'd ever had with "Brand X". This on 2 1/2 cups of EVO.
> 
> Needless to say, EVO costs more at the cash register than "Brand X". But is it REALLY "more expensive" to feed? Not really.


For those who believe Orijen Adult and EVO are a "better" food and have more kcals/per cup in comparison to lower protein, grain-inclusive foods, it's often true. Orijen Adult has 460 kcal/cup. EVO has 537 kcal/cup.

Calories is one of the things I was surprised about with Canine Caviar Chicken and Pearl Millet. It has 599 cal/cup. It is a very cost effective, simple, grain-inclusive food. There is generally about a $14 dollar difference between a 29.7 lb. bag of Orijen and a 30 lb. bag of CC Chicken in my area.


----------



## PDXdogmom

SerenityFL said:


> You bring up such a good point. I've read through many of these threads in this section and even priced out Orijen and other foods I've seen here and thought, "Hell, it's just as expensive as raw...I wouldn't save a dime" but..BUT, that's me thinking "Ok, Shasta gets a pound of meat every day" and so I thought he would get a pound of kibble every day. Or does he? My dog I had in Seattle, a Shepherd, Rott, Lab mix was 75 pounds and I am sure I did not give her over a pound of kibble a day.
> 
> So what are the guidelines to feeding something like Orijen for a 65 pound dog?


This might provide some insight.

There are 460 kcal/cup in Orijen Adult. It's listed as 120 grams per cup. There are about 453 grams in a pound. So, it would take 3 3/4 cup Orijen Adult to equal one lb. 

My son's 67 pound dog (moderately active) eats 2 1/4 cups Orijen per day.

So whether that is a savings for you instead of raw I guess would partly depend on how much you pay for meat.


----------



## PDXdogmom

Caty M said:


> It's directly followed by two grains however. I like Orijen's ingredient list because there are multiple protein sources at the beginning. Because ingredient percentages COULD be like this:
> 
> Dehydrated Chicken-20%
> Ground Pearl Millet-19.5%
> Whole Ground Brown Rice-19%.
> 
> Whereas in Orijen there is likely to be MUCH more meat because of the sources at the beginning of the list (they are all listed in order).
> Fresh boneless chicken*, chicken meal, fresh boneless salmon*, turkey meal, herring meal, russet potato.
> 
> Even if the chicken and salmon loses a lot of water and moves down, that's still three meals before the first starch.
> 
> Plus you can tell by the protein percentages- Orijen is 37%, CC is 26%.


Or, the ingredient percentages could look like this:

Dehydrated Chicken-34%
Ground Pear Millet-16%
Whole Ground Brown Rice-14%

That's an example of how we the pet food consumers in the U.S. are at a real disadvantage. There is no way to accurately know the percentages of the main ingredients. I've noticed a number of European brand dog foods that do include the ingredient percentages at least for the first 3 - 5 ingredients.

Also, while comparing listed protein percentages has some value, it's not the whole story. The digestibility  of a kibble is very important. Not all protein is equally digested and utilized. I know that Canine Caviar lists a 91-93% digestibility.


----------



## PDXdogmom

RawFedDogs said:


> Whats the difference in dehydrated chicken and chicken meal?


Dehydrated chicken has the moisture extracted and that's it. Bone is not included.

Chicken meal (or turkey meal or any other meal) as you noted in one of your earlier posts in this thread doesn't have to even contain all chicken. It does contain bone and it is cooked at high heat


----------



## PUNKem733

RCTRIPLEFRESH5 said:


> that is what a food should look like. if orijen had that in it..id buy it.


No you wouldn't, you'd just find something else to complain about. Funny thing is if Champion sold off Orijen to Diamond and just changed the name, and you had no idea about it you'd love it. You seem to hate the guts out of a company that moreso then most, if not all companies are closer to being all about the pet food consumer, and their pets rather than just profit. This statement is funny to me. You'd buy it, huh, but only if it had an ingredient that looked like that, yet you constantly buy inferior foods, and try to spin it as better then Orijen. Look you do what you want, and that's fine, but it's pretty funny (others would say infuriating but it's not worth the anger) to see your POV, and the logic of your thoughts.


----------



## Caty M

PDXdogmom said:


> Or, the ingredient percentages could look like this:
> 
> Dehydrated Chicken-34%
> Ground Pear Millet-16%
> Whole Ground Brown Rice-14%
> 
> That's an example of how we the pet food consumers in the U.S. are at a real disadvantage. There is no way to accurately know the percentages of the main ingredients. I've noticed a number of European brand dog foods that do include the ingredient percentages at least for the first 3 - 5 ingredients.
> 
> Also, while comparing listed protein percentages has some value, it's not the whole story. The digestibility  of a kibble is very important. Not all protein is equally digested and utilized. I know that Canine Caviar lists a 91-93% digestibility.


The protein percentage is IS good though for determining the amount of meat in a product. I'd say most companies (not all) would put as little meat as possible whilst still having it as the first ingredient. Ziwipeak is one that I believe and trust in.


----------



## RawFedDogs

PDXdogmom said:


> Dehydrated chicken has the moisture extracted and that's it. Bone is not included.
> 
> Chicken meal (or turkey meal or any other meal) as you noted in one of your earlier posts in this thread doesn't have to even contain all chicken. It does contain bone and it is cooked at high heat


Is there some kind of authoritative source for this information? Not trying to start anything. I just don't trust dog food companies and would like to have a confirmation that there is a difference between dehydrated chicken and chicken meal and possibly if the dehydrated chicken is the whole chicken or has the same ingredients as chicken meal (carcass after all the good meat has been removed).


----------



## kevin bradley

honest question... I hear many infer that "meal" is inferior because it contains bone. Isn't one of the positive aspects of raw feeding that you feed everything to your Dogs, bone included? Just trying to understand why meal would be considered bad because it contains chewed up bone.


----------



## RawFedDogs

Meal is not bad because it contains bone. It's bad because it's mostly bone. Picture a dead chicken. Remove the wings, drumsticks, thighs, breast meat. What is left is what is ground up into chicken meal. Also in todays world you can buy boneless wings and thighs. After the meat is removed from those parts, the leftover bone is also included in the meal. Also in the meal is any regular chicken part that for whatever reason is no longer human usuable. These could be pieces dropped on the floor or diseased parts, etc. Included in the meal is bone, connective tissue, and meat that the deboning machines can't remove.


----------



## CavePaws

I agree with Punkem...I'm sorry but this entire thread has just baffled me...Orijen < Eb. P?! Really? Earthborn does not even make it into my top 3 kibbles...


----------



## PDXdogmom

RawFedDogs said:


> Is there some kind of authoritative source for this information? Not trying to start anything. I just don't trust dog food companies and would like to have a confirmation that there is a difference between dehydrated chicken and chicken meal and possibly if the dehydrated chicken is the whole chicken or has the same ingredients as chicken meal (carcass after all the good meat has been removed).


AAFCO supplies the official definitions for ingredients in dog food; but they have no definition for "dehydrated chicken" or any other dehydrated meat. That leaves the consumer to specifically contact a company for its explanation. One online example is from The Honest Kitchen, as follows:

_"Our fresh raw meats and white fish undergo gentle steaming at 140°F to 165°F, to eliminate pathogens without irradiation. We then carefully evaporate the moisture using dehydration, which leaves more nutrients intact than harsh cooking, canning or extrusion. The meats leave the dehydration process at about 125°F. The entire process (including steaming) takes about 45 minutes. Our salmon is freeze-dried in a flash process that removes the moisture under vacuum."_

Canine Caviar on their website simply says: _"Canine Caviar uses hormone, antibiotic and pesticide free USDA chicken & New Zealand lamb and Venison that are raised free-range."_ Neither EVO or Orijen makes the claim of hormone, antibiotic and pesticide free. 

I would have to contact CC to find a specific answer regarding if there is any bone in their dehydrated chicken.
Dehydrating of poultry never seems to have the temperature go above 160-165 degrees which seems like it would be difficult to incorporate bone.


----------



## RCTRIPLEFRESH5

dr tim said:


> I have always used fiber in my calculations, sorry. Here is a neat calculator for cat food but I see no difference from dog food use;
> 
> ScheyderWeb Cat Food Nutrition Calculator
> 
> As to ash content, unless they list it I would assume 8-11% based on the cost of food; cheaper foods higher, more expensive _should_ be lower, but not always.


i know low ash is desired..but wouldnt a food with a higher ash content have lower carbs since the formula for carbs involves subtracting the ash content from 100?
so let's say you had 5 ash...that would be 95 carbs...vs 15 ash would be 85?

or am i missing something? (yes i know the formula involves the fat, moisture etc..but im just trying to make this clear to understand)

idk what ash even really is ha


----------



## RCTRIPLEFRESH5

RCTRIPLEFRESH5 said:


> i know low ash is desired..but wouldnt a food with a higher ash content have lower carbs since the formula for carbs involves subtracting the ash content from 100?
> so let's say you had 5 ash...that would be 95 carbs...vs 15 ash would be 85?
> 
> or am i missing something? (yes i know the formula involves the fat, moisture etc..but im just trying to make this clear to understand)
> 
> idk what ash even really is ha


UNBELIEVABLE
i ordered 2 bags of earthborn topdayat 2:55 pm....and chose free ups ground
and estimated delivery is tomorrow -_-

admittedly i live in NJ AND THEY SHIP FROM ri BUT STILL.


----------



## meggels

What is unbelievable about that? That's a great ship time lol...


----------



## Scarlett_O'

Sounds like normal UPS ship time to me!;=)


----------



## meggels

Sounds pretty fast actually. Even though it's only a few states, I probably would have expected more along the lines of Saturday.


----------



## Scarlett_O'

meggels said:


> Sounds pretty fast actually. Even though it's only a few states, I probably would have expected more along the lines of Saturday.


With my job we use UPS ground a LOT....the ones going to states that are within like....500miles I think(I could be wrong with those exact miles)....are next day if you get it out before they leave in the morning!:wink: (I have to take stuff to the UPS main base a LOT!LOL) But then again a LOT of things are different for business that use them a lot compared to normal people!


----------



## Caty M

RC you need to calm down.. next day delivery isn't bad!! Nor is it 'UNBELIEVABLE!!"


----------



## RCTRIPLEFRESH5

Caty M said:


> RC you need to calm down.. next day delivery isn't bad!! Nor is it 'UNBELIEVABLE!!"


it is good..which was the point in my post..way to make assumptions....=p

sheesh..you really think i';d say next day delivery is bad???

i was shocked..i didnt expect it till tuesday earliest.

im quite surprised people took my psot the opposite it was intended ha


----------



## kevin bradley

I knew what you meant. You are impressed by their expeditious shipping, RC. 

I'm amazed at how quick everything ships from online ordering. The brick and mortar stores are really up against it.


----------



## RCTRIPLEFRESH5

kevin bradley said:


> I knew what you meant. You are impressed by their expeditious shipping, RC.
> 
> I'm amazed at how quick everything ships from online ordering. The brick and mortar stores are really up against it.


ups guy came ehre, but the food wasn;t in his truck..now im gonna go look at my tracking info =\


----------



## 1605

PDXdogmom said:


> For those who believe Orijen Adult and EVO are a "better" food and have more kcals/per cup in comparison to lower protein, grain-inclusive foods, it's often true. Orijen Adult has 460 kcal/cup. EVO has 537 kcal/cup.
> 
> Calories is one of the things I was surprised about with Canine Caviar Chicken and Pearl Millet. It has 599 cal/cup. It is a very cost effective, simple, grain-inclusive food. There is generally about a $14 dollar difference between a 29.7 lb. bag of Orijen and a 30 lb. bag of CC Chicken in my area.


Not having done a comparison of the EVO, Orijen & the two foods you named, I'd nevertheless like to point out that it's not just how many calories are in the food, but WHAT makes up those calories. 

So saying that you can get more calories for less money isn't really a good way to gauge whether or not that particular food is "the best for the money".


----------



## minnieme

RCTRIPLEFRESH5 said:


> UNBELIEVABLE
> i ordered 2 bags of earthborn topdayat 2:55 pm....and chose free ups ground
> *and estimated delivery is tomorrow -_-*
> 
> admittedly i live in NJ AND THEY SHIP FROM ri BUT STILL.


I think people were probably misled by the -___-


----------



## RCTRIPLEFRESH5

minnieme said:


> I think people were probably misled by the -___-


hahhah
either way they made an error and it's not coming till Monday or so ;\


----------



## dr tim

Anything more than about 2% ash is wasted space in a dog food that could be replaced by something use able, such as protein, fat or carbs. If anyone was to call something a "filler", ash would be just that as it is wasted space. It is difficult with dry foods to bring ash to that amount of 2% because of cost. 6-7% ash is very good in any dog/cat food.


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## Scarlett_O'

dr tim said:


> Anything more than about 2% ash is wasted space in a dog food that could be replaced by something use able, such as protein, fat or* carbs*. If anyone was to call something a "filler", ash would be just that as it is wasted space. It is difficult with dry foods to bring ash to that amount of 2% because of cost. 6-7% ash is very good in any dog/cat food.


Sorry, I dont mean to laugh..but the bold part just struck me as REALLY funny....since that is all of that is ALSO wasted space for our pet carnivores!:wink: :tongue1: :laugh:


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## RawFedDogs

Fat is not wasted space. Fat is very good for our dogs. It is the energy component of a diet based on meat, bones, and organs. Fat doesn't affect dogs like it does humans. It's very necessary for carnivores. Carbs are pretty useless. :smile:


----------



## Liz

I understood she was saying that ash was wasted space.


----------



## dr tim

Carbs aren't useless as they are an energy source. If you are going to pay for a food, let it at least have energy value to it. They just don't need much in the way of carbs as a primary source of energy or as a nutrient.

Dogs need energy supplied as fat number one, protein number 2 and less than 10% of energy supplied as carbs number three. I know Bill has said he has fed a raw diet for many years, no carb addition with success and I believe it. But muscle still has glycogen, which is a carbohydrate source. Bill, you have fed some carbs and the dog has lived to bark about it.eace:

Think about what a carnivore is-they eat another animal, fat, protein, etc. Good thing a dog is an omnivore. Stir the pot as it is always a good time.


----------



## Scarlett_O'

RawFedDogs said:


> Fat is not wasted space. Fat is very good for our dogs. It is the energy component of a diet based on meat, bones, and organs. Fat doesn't affect dogs like it does humans. It's very necessary for carnivores. Carbs are pretty useless. :smile:


HAHA...sorry you are correct! I was on my tiny screen of a phone and trying to highlight the right things...and I screwed it up!:tongue:

But I shall fix it now!


----------



## Caty M

dr tim said:


> Carbs aren't useless as they are an energy source. If you are going to pay for a food, let it at least have energy value to it. They just don't need much in the way of carbs as a primary source of energy or as a nutrient.
> 
> Dogs need energy supplied as fat number one, protein number 2 and less than 10% of energy supplied as carbs number three. I know Bill has said he has fed a raw diet for many years, no carb addition with success and I believe it. But muscle still has glycogen, which is a carbohydrate source. Bill, you have fed some carbs and the dog has lived to bark about it.eace:
> 
> Think about what a carnivore is-they eat another animal, fat, protein, etc. Good thing a dog is an omnivore. Stir the pot as it is always a good time.


A dog isn't an omnivore. The vast majority of dogs do better on a prey model style diet compared to an omnivorous BARF diet. If they were an omnivore that wouldn't be the case. My dogs have both been raised on meat, bone and organ (and eggs) ONLY since they were weaned.. I also have a friend who is a malamute breeder and her dogs live on average 3-5 years longer than the average breed standard.

You realize that the majority of chronic problems seen in dogs nowadays are caused by inappropriate (ie OMNIVOROUS!) diets and over vaccinations. The majority of raw dogs don't have these problems.

ALL dog kibble has more than 10% carbs. Not optimal in my opinion.


----------



## 1605

Caty M said:


> A dog isn't an omnivore. The vast majority of dogs do better on a prey model style diet compared to an omnivorous BARF diet. If they were an omnivore that wouldn't be the case. My dogs have both been raised on meat, bone and organ (and eggs) ONLY since they were weaned.. I also have a friend who is a malamute breeder and her dogs live on average 3-5 years longer than the average breed standard.
> 
> You realize that the majority of chronic problems seen in dogs nowadays are caused by inappropriate (ie OMNIVOROUS!) diets and over vaccinations. The majority of raw dogs don't have these problems.
> 
> ALL dog kibble has more than 10% carbs. Not optimal in my opinion.


I don't wish to get into the ongoing raw vs kibble debate, or whether or not dogs today are "overvaccinated" but you *cannot *make a blanket statement like that without providing some sort of actual scientific proof.

So please, let's not go down that road in this thread!!!!


----------



## Caty M

Okay, but I can say that dogs are carnivores.. and there is plenty of proof of that despite what pet food manufacturers say.

I CAN also say that dogs are overvaccinated.. since there is proof *by the manufacturers* that vaccines last at LEAST 7 years (probably life) yet most vets still recommend yearly or three year vaccines.

Dr Tim, what is the point of carbs being fed to dogs if they can (and do) thrive without it? Kibbles like Orijen contain little carbs and most dogs do better on that than they do on high carb diets.


----------



## Scarlett_O'

Caty M said:


> Okay, but I can say that dogs are carnivores.. and there is plenty of proof of that despite what pet food manufacturers say.
> 
> I CAN also say that dogs are overvaccinated.. since there is proof *by the manufacturers* that vaccines last at LEAST 7 years (probably life) yet most vets still recommend yearly or three year vaccines.
> 
> Dr Tim, what is the point of carbs being fed to dogs if they can (and do) thrive without it? *Kibbles like Orijen contain little carbs and most dogs do better on that than they do on high carb diets.*


And as we all know, most dogs who dont is because of human error!! (over feeding, excess treats, etc!:wink


----------



## RawFedDogs

Tim, I know you are a dog food manufacturer and as such you MUST try to make dogs omnivores and you must shout from the rooftop that dogs need carbs and today you even say that muscle has carbs in it but the USDA disagrees with you as do I. (USDA is a little more authoritative than me. :smile: ) I just checked USDA database at _ http://www.nal.usda.gov/fnic/foodcomp/search/ _ and sure enough there are zero carbs in raw chicken, raw feef, raw pork, or raw turkey. I suspect there are also none in raw any other meat. 

I doubt dogs or dog's bodies care where the energy comes from, just so the energy is there when it's needed. Their digestive system just isn't built to efficiently digest carbs and I see no need to feed carbs. Carbs do much more harm to a dog's body than they do good. That statement is probably true for humans also.

Yes, I have fed dogs some carbs before. The last time I fed a significant amount of carbs was when I was beginning raw feeding and fed BARF to my dogs. Without fail, the day after a meal of veggie slop, the dogs had diarrhea. That said a lot to me. And yes, the veggies were pureed. Long conversations with Tom Lonsdale convinced me that dogs had no need for carbs at all.

Yeah, I know you are stirring the pot but I just can't resist. :biggrin:


----------



## CavePaws

The nature of kibble makes it an omnivores diet. In order for kibble to hold together it needs to have some unnecessary carbs in it. In my opinion this is why it is not meant for dogs at all. I think a much more "species appropriate" commercial diet that caters more to carnivores would be something like a dehydrated meat or freeze dried meat diet that has supplements for the natural vitamins that are taken out because of cooking. I don't see why a veterinarian like Dr. Tim would not see the moral dilemma here. It is always said, dogs thrive on a meat based diet (based on dentition and digestive track) but vegetables can be a valuable part of the diet in moderation. What is so moderate about half of a kibble being made up of carbohydrates? It just boggles my mind how a veterinarian feels fine making a sub-par kibble. Sorry Dr. Tim, I don't mean to be overly aggressive towards you in general. It is just a simple disagreement on the quality of kibble ingredients. ;]


----------



## dr tim

Hey Bill;

First and foremost I am a vet and have been for a long time, thus a scientist type. I understand the biochmical mechanisms of the dog and cat and the way they are set up, dogs, that is, is much more towards using carbohydrates as a source of energy than the cat. Cats are not set up to use carbs at all in this mechanism. That is one of the main basis of the arguments in the carnivore/non carnivore theory. I have seen many wolf kills in Alaska and get that as well. I also watch my cats bring in mice and birds daily; neither have corn cobs in their beaks but I have seen wolves eat the stomachs of a deer. I have also watched my dog eat blueberries off the bush as we pick the berries. Evidence? You make the call.

As a person who is tired of the methods of the pet food industry and understands the mechanisms of biochemistry, digestion and feeding of a dog and cat, I decided to make a better kibble. Why a kibble? That is the McDonald's way of society these days and the place to start and make an impact. Eventualy, yes, I would like to do a real meat inclusion diet when I believe the technology of production affords a difference in the end product versus the dry foods on the market today; that is my belief, plain and simple; the method isn't there yet to due a high meat inclusion diet. The technology is closer to making a convenient, dry kibble that is closer to feeding raw than it was a few years ago, I will leave it at that. There are many claims that just can't be substantiated in th pet food industry when you start really looking at it closely. Again, I am not slamming anyone to make mine look better. In the end I always want an owner to make an informed, educated choice on picking the best food for their dog or cat.

THe vaccine debate? I vaccinate every 3 years. If you are old enough to remember distemper, and it is still out there, you will understand how vaccines have made a huge difference in the average lifespan of animals these days. Can you vaccinate for diseases that aren't prevelent in your area? Sure. These days I am most concerned about folks taking the human attitude towards limited vaccination of their children and applying towards their puppies and kittens. You need to understand the area that you live in and the risk of disease to play that game-dangerous, in my opinion.

Bill, I am a vet first, food maker second. Food maker because the other companies pissed me off and I decided to try and make a better one myself. I have stirred their pot more than you know and so have you folks on forums like this.


----------



## Tobi

> I have also watched my dog eat blueberries off the bush as we pick the berries. Evidence? You make the call.


Not really... my dog eats feces... it doesn't mean that it should be included in his diet. :lol:


----------



## Scarlett_O'

Tobi said:


> Not really... my dog eats feces... it doesn't mean that it should be included in his diet. :lol:


HAHA, ya know there was a thread around here some where where a bunch of us gathered all of our dogs wanted additions to their diets....it included, but was not limited to, underwear, rocks, concrete, leafs, cell phone chargers, cell phone/iPods, hair from themselves/others, wood, q-tips, toy stuffing, plastic squeakers, dog/kitty/horse/cow poo, AND MORE!!!:wink: :thumb:


----------



## minnieme

Don't forget goose poop. TO DIIIE FOR!


----------



## Caty M

dr tim said:


> THe vaccine debate? I vaccinate every 3 years. If you are old enough to remember distemper, and it is still out there, you will understand how vaccines have made a huge difference in the average lifespan of animals these days. Can you vaccinate for diseases that aren't prevelent in your area? Sure. These days I am most concerned about folks taking the human attitude towards limited vaccination of their children and applying towards their puppies and kittens. You need to understand the area that you live in and the risk of disease to play that game-dangerous, in my opinion.
> 
> Bill, I am a vet first, food maker second. Food maker because the other companies pissed me off and I decided to try and make a better one myself. I have stirred their pot more than you know and so have you folks on forums like this.


I think you are forgetting the fact that the body doesn't just forget after three years that it's immune to a disease. An immune response lasts a lifetime. Studies BY MERCK have shown they last at least seven years. More vaccines doesn't mean more immunity. Anyway. You say cats don't utilize carbs but your cat food has grains, too!


----------



## meggels

Scarlett_O' said:


> HAHA, ya know there was a thread around here some where where a bunch of us gathered all of our dogs wanted additions to their diets....it included, but was not limited to, underwear, rocks, concrete, leafs, cell phone chargers, cell phone/iPods, hair from themselves/others, wood, q-tips, toy stuffing, plastic squeakers, dog/kitty/horse/cow poo, AND MORE!!!:wink: :thumb:



UGH, whenever Murphy comes to the farm with me and Abbie, he goes nuts on the horse poo buffet in the fields that Abbie and I play fetch in. He grabs a chunk, I yell "MURPHY NO. DROP THE POOP! DONT YOU TOUCH THAT POOP" and he runs faster than I've seen him move before, with the chunk of poo in his mouth of course. He can't be bothered to walk over to me when I call him sometimes, but those fat little legs sure move fast when there's horse poo involved!


At least Abigail drops it when I tell her too.


----------



## Unosmom

I'm amazed how this threat just keeps growing and growing despite of lack of substance.


----------



## CavePaws

I think it has become a debate on the quality of kibbles and if dogs should have a decent amount of carbs in the diet at this point...It seems like it has gone way off topic.
I'm just interested in Dr. Tims reply to my post...:[


----------



## Scarlett_O'

meggels said:


> UGH, whenever Murphy comes to the farm with me and Abbie, he goes nuts on the horse poo buffet in the fields that Abbie and I play fetch in. He grabs a chunk, I yell "MURPHY NO. DROP THE POOP! DONT YOU TOUCH THAT POOP" and he runs faster than I've seen him move before, with the chunk of poo in his mouth of course. He can't be bothered to walk over to me when I call him sometimes, but those fat little legs sure move fast when there's horse poo involved!
> 
> 
> At least Abigail drops it when I tell her too.


HAHA, oh yes that is TOTALLY Rhett and Brody!!LOL :lol:

And well DUH Abigail is a good girl...she has the perfect name and cant be any thing other then naturally an angel!!!:tongue1:


----------



## runwiththewind

I'm really happy with Earthborn Primitive so far. I recently switched from Wellness Core Original. I emailed Earthborn and received a prompt reply:

"We manufacture Earthborn in our company owned manufacturing facilities in the Midwest USA. Our Earthborn products are manufactured in our Monmouth, IL plant. We do not claim that our ingredients are human grade. In fact, there is no AAFCO (Association of American Feed Control Officials) definition for human grade ingredients in pet food at this time. We use the highest quality ingredients available for pet food. Our proteins come from human grade facilities where “people food” comes from. All ingredients for Earthborn dry pet food are sourced from the US except for flaxseed which comes from Canada and lamb meal which comes from Australia or New Zealand. All vitamins are now produced overseas. Although we purchase vitamins from a US company they are now produced overseas. These vitamins are sourced from human grade facilities. They go through two testing points before being exported, again when they reach the US and twice more once they reach the US. That’s a total of at least five times. We source all ingredients from the US if they are available in the US. We use a US supplier of fish meal that preserved with tocopherols, a natural source of Vitamin E; our products are ethoxyquin-free. Protein for Primitive Natural is 38%, Fat is 20%. You can find ingredients, analysis and feeding guidelines on our website.

I emailed them again & questioned their statement: “We use the highest quality ingredients available for pet food.” What do you mean by that since it’s not human grade? I noticed the % says on the label not less than 38%, but can it be more or is this the actual amount. Your fat is rather high, can it be higher?

“We do not use animals from the zoo or road kill or anything like that. We can’t give out the complete analysis of our food; that is proprietary. The protein for Primitive Natural is 38% and the Fat is 20%. “I don’t know what else to tell you. We do not use any of the ingredients that you have mentioned. Our protein sources come from the same suppliers that people food come from. AAFCO (Association of American Feed Control Officials) does not have a description for human grade ingredients in dog food; We do not claim that our ingredients are human grade.” 

FYI: The Dog Food Project - Meat vs. Meal

Per Dr. Tim: "The meat meals will have a higher protein content on a weight basis than the meat inclusion as a rule." I agree!!! 

Dr. Tim, it's rather late now & I probably missed it - but did you ever mention the name of your brand? Can you list the ingredients for us? I think it's great that you can also educate your patients on pet food. I wrote "Who's Your Vet" and I emphasize the importance of being proactive in pet's health as well as pet food.

I emailed Dr. Shawn Messonnier since he's trying to change the way pet food is manufactured: "I believe the bigger story and problem is all of the “trash” that’s legally allowed in your pet’s food, including potentially harmful byproducts and chemicals." http://www.petcarenaturally.com/letter-to-pet-food-company.doc

Now that you know about the manufacturing end of pet food, perhaps you'd like to get involved.
http://dogfoodchat.com/forum/dog-food-ingredients/10102-aafco-website.html



IMO, "the best" is what works for your pet. There is no perfect kibble. As far as Orijen being the best, I feel one should judge not only the ingredients but the reputation of a company. Both my boys had "d" on Orijen. I had a fecal test taken and came up negative, yet they still had "d". One night as I was feeding the kibble, I noticed something sharp sticking out of the kibble. I went on-line and found other people complaining about their dogs getting "d". One lady's Vet diagnosed her dog with IBD. I then noticed a letter was written from the President stating they had a problem with the bones being separated and apologized for the human error - QA didn't catch it. When I called the company to get reimbursed for the fecal test, I asked why they didn't have a visible notice on their main page. I was told to look for a fish icon and that's where the President's letter was. If I never called the company, I would never have known to click on the icon. Even after I said it should be visible, they never placed a warning on their main page. When I went to return the bad lot #'s to the retailer, those bags were still sitting on the shelf and the retailer was never notified. I called a retailer I know and he was told by the distributor that the bad lot numbers never were shipped to Florida. Apparently, the problem started two months prior to me finding the bone shards in the kibble. If a company isn't responsible, why would anyone think this is the best kibble? Anyone remember how many cats died or were paralyzed in Australia from Champion Foods? If I was to rate Earthborn vs Orijen - I'd say "Earthborn is the best".


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## RawFedDogs

What they are saying is that there is no such thing as "human grade" ingredients. Once anything leaves the processing plant heading to the rendering plant, it is no longer human grade. Any company that tells you that they use human grade ingredients is lying to you. There is no such creature. There is no definition that defines what human grade is. Same thing goes for "Premium", "Holistic", or "Natural". Any company can call their dog foods any of those things. If they wanted to, Walmart could call Ol' Roy a Premium, natural, holistic food. Also "From a USDA inspected facility" has no meaning at all. As long as we are talking dog food, they all say "more than" or "less than" with all their nutritional data. Thats because no two batches are the same. They vary greatly. They can't assign a specific number to any ingredient or to their nutritional table.


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## Caty M

Australia required irradiation upon entry- it wasn't a problem with the manufacturing of Champion foods. Though I agree that the shipment should NOT have been sold if it had to be irradiated. 

I don't think anyone is denying that Earthborn is a good food- it's a great kibble, I don't think it's up to par with Orijen. I think a lot of the diarrhea problems, not all, are with overfeeding such a rich food. Not every processed food agrees with every dog.


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## Caty M

Bill, you bring up a good point.. :biggrin: you see SO many things being labelled as "natural" that clearly aren't. I personally wouldn't consider any kibble to be "natural".... yet you see ones like Blue Buffalo, IAMS, Nutro... all labelling their products as such. What does 'holistic' even mean? To me, 'natural' and 'holistic' would only mean what a dog would NATURALLY eat...

There needs to be more regulation on labelling..


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## Dude and Bucks Mamma

I didn't read all 13 pages but just looking at the ingredient list, if I were to feed kibble, I would feed Orijen, hands down. I have never fed either so I am completely unbiased. Orijen is the DEFINITE winner for me.


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## RCTRIPLEFRESH5

orijen was given the choice to enter austrailia or deny shipment. they chose to enter with the knowledge their foods were getting radiated


Caty M said:


> Australia required irradiation upon entry- it wasn't a problem with the manufacturing of Champion foods. Though I agree that the shipment should NOT have been sold if it had to be irradiated.
> 
> I don't think anyone is denying that Earthborn is a good food- it's a great kibble, I don't think it's up to par with Orijen. I think a lot of the diarrhea problems, not all, are with overfeeding such a rich food. Not every processed food agrees with every dog.


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## CorgiPaws

SubMariner said:


> [SIZcE=3]I don't wish to get into the ongoing raw vs kibble debate, or whether or not dogs today are "overvaccinated" but you *cannot *make a blanket statement like that without providing some sort of actual scientific proof.
> 
> So please, let's not go down that road in this thread!!!!
> [/SIZE]


When saying most dogs do better on a NOT kibble diet... its true. 
When will you people get it? There is no marketing money trail for PMR so you're NOT going to get your high and mighty scientific studies. When someone starts slamming billions a year on PMR, you will get your studies. Until then, all we've got is common sense (whole foods will ALWAYS be better.) And pure logic (a processed diet is unhealthy.) If you need more than that... I'm not sure what to tell you. And if the thread is dead to you and lacks substance... don't read it. No one is forcing you to. Clearly others aren't done with it. 



Tobi said:


> Not really... my dog eats feces... it doesn't mean that it should be included in his diet. :lol:


Lol. Based on our most recent outings and experiences, based on the blueberry logic, my dogs would totally dig a kibble like this:
Deer poop, women's underwear- uncleaned, cow poop, rotting fish carcass, sand, shoe rubber, sticks, toy stuffing, doorknob, dryer lint, kiwi skin cuttings, bathroom trash contents, cheezits, fouton frames, nylon collars, couch, drywall, electrical wires, house siding, the little circles of paper that fall out of a hole puncher, laptop charges, sprinklers heads.

Those are all things I've seen dogs attempt to eat, either my dogs, dogs at work, or friends dogs. Evidence? You decide.


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## ajl

I definitely agree that that RAW is the best. Though, sometimes you just can't feed raw. Then there's this forum for ppl who want to decide which is the best option under given circumstances  We'd be kidding ourselves thinking that there's something comparable to raw diet, but you can still make a huge difference by feeding Purina, Eukanuba....... Primitive Natural.... Orijen or Evo. I love both Primitive Natural and Orijen, but as long as my dog goes he seems to be in love w/ Orijen and also has better stool. THough, I was really happy w/ Prmitive Natural,too, because it was one of the foods my dog would eat w/o leaving a bowl. Also there's no arguing about Orijen being far better, imo. The second thing is that the price is very different, too. But personally I prefer fresh meat as well. I've read a whole thread and there's a reason why company chose to put fresh meat into their kibble. Although it might seem like cheating to some, quantity always doesnt mean quality and w/ Orijen you get that quality. (as far as dry food goes)

Also just a little note, someone posted that Evo and Orijen doesn't have on their site statement about hormone free ingredients etc... that's not true, here you go
_"Processed under the Government of Canada’s highest food safety standards, ORIJEN meats are hormone and antibiotic free, and we’re proud to name our local suppliers whose icons are known and trusted by in Canadian households. "_

It's funny thread, lol. So much fighting and arguing.... but it was interesting read


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## Caty M

PuppyPaws said:


> When saying most dogs do better on a NOT kibble diet... its true.
> When will you people get it? There is no marketing money trail for PMR so you're NOT going to get your high and mighty scientific studies. When someone starts slamming billions a year on PMR, you will get your studies. Until then, all we've got is common sense (whole foods will ALWAYS be better.) And pure logic (a processed diet is unhealthy.) If you need more than that... I'm not sure what to tell you. And if the thread is dead to you and lacks substance... don't read it. No one is forcing you to. Clearly others aren't done with it.
> 
> 
> Lol. Based on our most recent outings and experiences, based on the blueberry logic, my dogs would totally dig a kibble like this:
> *Deer poop, women's underwear- uncleaned, cow poop, rotting fish carcass, sand, shoe rubber, sticks, toy stuffing, doorknob, dryer lint, kiwi skin cuttings, bathroom trash contents, cheezits, fouton frames, nylon collars, couch, drywall, electrical wires, house siding, the little circles of paper that fall out of a hole puncher, laptop charges, sprinklers heads.*
> 
> Those are all things I've seen dogs attempt to eat, either my dogs, dogs at work, or friends dogs. Evidence? You decide.


Wait... that sounds JUST LIKE the Ol'Roy ingredient list!!


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## JayJayisme

The only chicken meal that's worth a **** is chicken meal that comes from the boneless chicken ranch. Sadly, you have to go to The Far Side to get it. 

My apologies to Gary Larson.









_edited by moderator for language._


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## runwiththewind

Caty M - "I think a lot of the diarrhea problems, not all, are with overfeeding such a rich food. Not every processed food agrees with every dog."

I totally agree with you but not in my case. My boys had also been on it for quite a while. It was definitely Orijen causing the problem in my dogs as well as others. Again, I'm not questioning their ingredients (although Champion did have mad cow disease in the past), only the company's way of doing business. We all make choices in the way we feed our dogs - I choose not to feed their brand. I really feel home cooking is the way to go if it's balanced. That also holds true for raw - being balanced.


"There needs to be more regulation on labelling.." 

I totally agree but it doesn't seem anyone wants to get involved. You can see how many replies there were to this thread: 
http://dogfoodchat.com/forum/dog-food-ingredients/10102-aafco-website.html


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## ajl

I definitely agree that it's not always the problem of giving too much of kibble. I actually read on the net a lot of reviews and I was aware of Orijen not fitting all dogs. That's why I went for little bag to try it out first. I think it's mostly because it has such a wide variety (maybe even unnecessary) of fruits, vegetables and meats and some dogs might be allergic to something or not being able to digest that. Though, I've tried Primitive Natural, too and since we don't have EVO in our country, after Orijen that's probably one of the best kibble available over here.


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## Elisabeth

Caty M said:


> I still think EVO is a bit better than Orijen.
> 
> Turkey, Chicken, Turkey meal, chicken meal, potatoes, hearing meal, chicken fat, natural flavors, apples, tomatoes, potassium chloride, carrots, vitamins, cottage cheese, minerals, alfalfa sprouts, dried chicory roots, Direct-fed microbial and ascorbic acid.
> 
> Way less fruits and veggies and herbs. No protein isolates and the highest protein and fat percentages of any kibble I know. 43/22.


i don't like that they put "natural flavors" in it. i know that in people food it's often a disguise for MSG!


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## PDXdogmom

Elisabeth said:


> i don't like that they put "natural flavors" in it. i know that in people food it's often a disguise for MSG!


I also thought I've heard that in human food the "natural flavors" is often MSG. But I've come across a variety of explanations for what it is in dog food. Here is one of the more common definitions:


_Natural Flavoring

Natural flavoring in dog food is what the FDA calls "digests." These digests are composed of "materials treated with heat, enzymes and/or acids to form concentrated natural flavors." To provide additional meat flavor, broth might be added._ 

It's kind of nice when you don't see that in a kibble ingredient list, but it seems it's there more often than not.


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