# Cesar Milan



## rockymtsweetie82

What do you all think of Cesar Milan's method of "No touch, no talk, no eye contact" for when people come into the house, interacting with your dogs. I'm thinking about trying it out as everytime someone comes in the dogs go happy nuts jumping, barking, etc. I'm enthralled with Cesar's methods and wondered what everyone else thought about his techniques.


----------



## ILuvLabs

I have a lot of issues with his techniques (prefer Victoria Stillwell on "It's Me or The Dog" as she never gets rough with any dog while training). However, when I come in, I have to do basically what he says. Not only does it keep my dog calm but when she gets excited, she's at my feet which is a pain trying to get across the kitchen to put down my bags!

I haven't tried that with others coming in but I have the same problem with her getting too excited & they can barely walk in because she's right at their feet. Great idea! Never thought to apply that one to company. I'm going to try the leash first & will tell the people not to give her any attention at all until she's sitting calmly.

Thanks for posting that.......


----------



## BabyHusky

I honestly don't mind Cesar. Yes, his way of training is probably a bit more negative than most would prefer but he only deals with really problematic dogs. You don't really see him trying to "rough" train a puppy. He just delivers the quickest way to train very disobedient dogs which is "im the pack leader, you will listen."

Overall, its obvious that he loves dogs and he's a wonderful person irl. He truly is passionate about all dogs and I'm glad that he's been able to help many people that would have had no choice but to abandon their dog.


----------



## rockymtsweetie82

I really don't like Victoria Stillwell's techniques because she doesn't really assess the situation before hand she tries to fix the problem without knowing why or where it started whereas Cesar more or less trains the PEOPLE on how to handle their dogs and that seems to be a much quicker method. I know that when my dogs act up or act out that it's something WE as the family members are doing and if we change what we do as a whole, then our dogs will respect us and listen to us, the pack leaders. Thanks for your opinions!


----------



## ChattyCathy

When I come in the dogs pretty much ignore me cuz I ignore them until I'm ready to pet them. And, they pretty much don't jump on me. BUT... w/company the little one is jumping up on everyone even when they ignore her and even when I give her the command off! So, I'd have to say it doesn't work for me.


----------



## BoxerMommie

I don't have an issue with my dogs going nuts when myself, my husband, or my son come in however they can get more excited when others come over. So I have and do use the no touch no talk no eye contact method and I actually used it with the lady who cleans my house, she's been coming every other week since my 17 month old was 7 weeks old so he obviously knows her but he goes nuts every time she comes so when he was around 14 months old I told her to please try this and it worked VERY well. Within 30 seconds both dogs had moved onto other things and so everytime she comes over we do this and 5-10 minutes after she's been here then I allow her to pet them but only if they sit and behave first. It's worked GREAT for us!


----------



## prntmkr

rockymtsweetie82 said:


> What do you all think of Cesar Milan's method of "No touch, no talk, no eye contact" for when people come into the house, interacting with your dogs. I'm thinking about trying it out as everytime someone comes in the dogs go happy nuts jumping, barking, etc. I'm enthralled with Cesar's methods and wondered what everyone else thought about his techniques.




Whenever Cesar Millan’s name appears, out come the bandwagons, both for and against. )

Aside from the "No touch, no talk, no eye contact", other trainers might recommend folding the arms across the chest and holding still. 

My 2 cents worth would be to consider training your dogs to automatically go to a particular spot and sit quietly, whenever someone arrives at your home; this is a particularly easy thing to do. We use the stairs near our front door. Our little guy has a good view of everything going on at the door, and is content to sit quietly until released. 

All else aside, using methods that work for you, teaching your dogs to remain “calm and submissive” whilst people (anybody) are coming or going from your home will make life a lot easier.

Oh, and yes … I’m a C.M. “fan”, too. I think his method, based on using pack structure, is highly sound, very humane and effective...

His detractors should probably keep in mind that he is not “training” dogs, but dealing with some very serious existing issues. Over the past 30+ years of dealing with dogs, I’ve met very few (if any) professional trainers who could deal with many of his more difficult cases; many, if not most, would surely have been euthanized. 

Just my 2 cents worth.

Good luck!


----------



## rannmiller

Oooh I like the go sit quietly in a certain spot method. How would one go about teaching that correctly? Because I can guess at it and even employ my brother the behavior mod lover but I'd like advice from someone who's actually done it.


----------



## prntmkr

rannmiller said:


> Oooh I like the go sit quietly in a certain spot method. How would one go about teaching that correctly? Because I can guess at it and even employ my brother the behavior mod lover but I'd like advice from someone who's actually done it.


Our puppies are taught this at a very young age. All of our pups learned this simple behavior in only a few minutes. For an adult dog, it might take a bit longer, but should still be a simple and painless procedure. I’ve also taught this to friends’ “totally wild, untrainable” dogs. 

Having 2 helpers is a gr8 idea …

Pick a spot. Ideally, it should be a defined area (stairs, a rug etc). The spot should be within easy access and viewing to your entry door (so that if Rover dog is particularly excitable, he/she won’t get too anxious to know what’s going on … or if Rover is very protective, he/she won’t feel compromised.).

Give Rover the command, and guide/coax him to the spot. Put him in a sit/stay. Praise (or give a treat if you have to). Make it a fun but calm procedure; you don’t want your dog all excited. Repeat a few times until he understands the command, prolonging the sit/stay each time. Once he has the hang of it …

Have helper #1 ring the bell, or knock on the door. Calmly give Rover the command, and make sure it’s obeyed. *Ignore the door until he’s on his spot, sitting and calm.*

Have helper #2 open the door, while you make sure Rover holds his sit. The longer he sits without breaking, the better. If he breaks, calmly put him back in his spot, in his sit. Repeat as necessary.

To reinforce the behavior, you can have the helpers (eventually) increase their excitement at the door. They can talk to and call to Rover. However, ONLY YOU can release him from his sit!

Others may have a different or better idea of how to teach this. The above has always worked for me, and with some very tough and stubborn dogs as well as silly, playful ones.


----------



## RawFedDogs

Cesar Millan is a very mediocre dog trainer. There are probably 10,000 better trainers than him across the country. He is very backward and uneducated on dog psychology and behavior. However, EVERYTHING he says isn't wrong. This is one of the few places he is correct.


----------



## rockymtsweetie82

prntmkr said:


> Our puppies are taught this at a very young age. All of our pups learned this simple behavior in only a few minutes. For an adult dog, it might take a bit longer, but should still be a simple and painless procedure. I’ve also taught this to friends’ “totally wild, untrainable” dogs.
> 
> Having 2 helpers is a gr8 idea …
> 
> Pick a spot. Ideally, it should be a defined area (stairs, a rug etc). The spot should be within easy access and viewing to your entry door (so that if Rover dog is particularly excitable, he/she won’t get too anxious to know what’s going on … or if Rover is very protective, he/she won’t feel compromised.).
> 
> Give Rover the command, and guide/coax him to the spot. Put him in a sit/stay. Praise (or give a treat if you have to). Make it a fun but calm procedure; you don’t want your dog all excited. Repeat a few times until he understands the command, prolonging the sit/stay each time. Once he has the hang of it …
> 
> Have helper #1 ring the bell, or knock on the door. Calmly give Rover the command, and make sure it’s obeyed. *Ignore the door until he’s on his spot, sitting and calm.*
> 
> Have helper #2 open the door, while you make sure Rover holds his sit. The longer he sits without breaking, the better. If he breaks, calmly put him back in his spot, in his sit. Repeat as necessary.
> 
> To reinforce the behavior, you can have the helpers (eventually) increase their excitement at the door. They can talk to and call to Rover. However, ONLY YOU can release him from his sit!
> 
> Others may have a different or better idea of how to teach this. The above has always worked for me, and with some very tough and stubborn dogs as well as silly, playful ones.



That sounds absolutely easy and amazing! I'm going to try that thank you!


----------



## rockymtsweetie82

RawFedDogs said:


> Cesar Millan is a very mediocre dog trainer. There are probably 10,000 better trainers than him across the country. He is very backward and uneducated on dog psychology and behavior. However, EVERYTHING he says isn't wrong. This is one of the few places he is correct.


LOL well at least I chose that method then. Thanks!


----------



## prntmkr

RawFedDogs said:


> Cesar Millan is a very mediocre dog trainer. There are probably 10,000 better trainers than him across the country. He is very backward and uneducated on dog psychology and behavior...


Okay, I’ll bite … although I hate to bite the moderator ).

Cesar Millan may or may not be a brilliant dog trainer. I can’t and won’t argue the point. I don’t know how effective of a trainer he is, as he goes so far as to state that he does _not_ train these dogs, but “rehabilitates” them…

In any of the “Dog Whisperer” episodes I’ve seen, he had been called in to address a particular problem(s), NOT to train. 

Where I (personally) think C.M. excels, is in his knowledge of pack structure, especially as it pertains to dominant and/or aggressive dogs. I’m not fond of his “energy” analogies, but they seem to be his way of verbalizing that elusive, esoteric quality which “natural leaders” seem to exude. 

Treats and clickers work well with _most_ dogs; but they are are simply not enough, when dealing with certain dogs. I strongly suspect that most of those infamous “10,000 better trainers” could not handle some of the more intense issues C.M. has confronted on his show.

It’s just my opinion. I remain open to any reasonable arguments to the contrary. However, until I’m persuaded otherwise, for now, we’ll just have to agree to disagree.


----------



## rockymtsweetie82

I agree with you. Certain behavioral issues that Cesar addresses just cannot be changed with "better trainers".


----------



## BoxerMommie

I third that as well and completely agree. I've had many people tell me that their trainer or behaviorist told them to put the dog down when it is a seemingly similar case to what Cesar has worked with. And personally I have used many of his methods and had GREAT results with them.


----------



## RawFedDogs

prntmkr said:


> Okay, I’ll bite … although I hate to bite the moderator ).


Don't worry at all about biting THIS moderator. You will never get in trouble for that as long as you keep to the subject. That applies to biting anyone else also. :smile"



> Cesar Millan may or may not be a brilliant dog trainer. I can’t and won’t argue the point. I don’t know how effective of a trainer he is, as he goes so far as to state that he does _not_ train these dogs, but “rehabilitates” them…


"rehabilitate" is a marketing ploy. In my 15 years of training, I had cases similar to the ones I see him handle all the time. Probably 1/3 of my private clients were problem dogs. He is not good with problem dogs. His methods are outdated and in many cases cruel.



> In any of the “Dog Whisperer” episodes I’ve seen, he had been called in to address a particular problem(s), NOT to train.


Thats the same for every trainer in the world unless all the trainer does is teach classes. The 10,000 trainers I am talking about handle the same types of dogs every day. 



> Where I (personally) think C.M. excels, is in his knowledge of pack structure, especially as it pertains to dominant and/or aggressive dogs. I’m not fond of his “energy” analogies, but they seem to be his way of verbalizing that elusive, esoteric quality which “natural leaders” seem to exude.


People seem to forget that this is a TV show. Cesar is a great showman and a good TV personality. He is a great self promoter. As for his knowledge, believe me, it is out of date. It was what was known 20 years ago. Dog training has changed a lot in the last 15 years and Cesar did not change with it.



> Treats and clickers work well with _most_ dogs; but they are are simply not enough, when dealing with certain dogs. I strongly suspect that most of those infamous “10,000 better trainers” could not handle some of the more intense issues C.M. has confronted on his show.


Hehe, Don't tell the person who knows how that something is impossible. The things you say are not enough are exactly what will cure the problem permanently, not just until the TV cameras leave. Again, we other trainers handle dogs like the ones on his show every day. It's not a big deal. It looks good on TV but its not a big deal.

There are better ways to handle these dogs than the way Cesar does. Notice the disclaimer on his show "don't try this at home"? There is a reason for it. 

Do you ever see a disclaimer like that on Victoria's show? No. There is no need with her methods. You really should spend time watching "It's Me or the Dog." You will learn what dog training is really all about.



> It’s just my opinion. I remain open to any reasonable arguments to the contrary. However, until I’m persuaded otherwise, for now, we’ll just have to agree to disagree.


Really, spend some time watching Victoria. You won't see any domination, silly pack theory, "simulated" bites, jerking on the leash, flooding, or other harsh methods. She teaches dogs and people what behaviors are expected and the dogs behave that way. They aren't FORCED into anything.

Back in my training days, if I could have filmed my best 25 success stories every year, I too could have an amazing TV show.  Remember Cesar is an actor on a TV show with scripts. You don't see what happens when the TV cameras are turned off. You don't know that it takes 3 days to tape a 20 minute segment of a show. It's a TV show. It's shown for entertainment.


----------



## RawFedDogs

rockymtsweetie82 said:


> I agree with you. Certain behavioral issues that Cesar addresses just cannot be changed with "better trainers".


They can and it's done every day. THere are much better ways to handle these dogs than the ways Cesar uses. Most trainers know them. I know I'm repeating myself but don't tell the person who knows how that something is impossible.

There is no need to use force or coersion to handle a troubled dog. It can be done with kindness and understanding and encouragment. I've seen it done many many times. I've done it many many times.


----------



## BoxerMommie

Personally, I've seen Victoria on "It's Me or the Dog"...not a big fan of her methods personally. As the other poster said, we will have to agree to disagree. I don't think one way or the other is right or wrong, her way just isn't for me personally.


----------



## RawFedDogs

BoxerMommie said:


> Personally, I've seen Victoria on "It's Me or the Dog"...not a big fan of her methods personally. As the other poster said, we will have to agree to disagree. I don't think one way or the other is right or wrong, her way just isn't for me personally.


What is it specifically you don't like about her methods and what specifically do you like about Cesar's?

I find Cesars methods too harsh, rough, dominering, outdated, ignorant and cruel. He does psychologically harmful things to troubled dogs. I don't buy for a second that the dogs have the slightest understanding of what those "simulated bites", "alpha rolls" and other stupid things he does are supposed to be.

I find Victoria intellegent, knowledgable, using positive methods to teach dogs positive behaviors. You never see Victoria jerk a dog or put them in pain in any way. She is completely 100% positive and doesn't harm the dog at all. Yet she gets the same results and the dogs know she is running the show. She can do that without using force or coersion and that is a huge plus. 

She lives pretty close to me. I hope to get over to see her one day.

Hehe, I never agree to disagree. I can only agree that I'm right and you're wrong. LOL


----------



## BoxerMommie

Sorry I don't believe that anyone is right or wrong on a personal choice which training is. There is more than one way to get it accomplished, nobody is right or wrong, it's just different.

She uses treats A LOT, which personally I do not agree with. I have NEVER trained with treats and yet all of my dogs got trained. I don't agree with bribing things, animals or kids, which basically holding a treat in front of it's face, that's exactly what you're doing. 

Personally, I prefer Cesar's methods over Victoria's. They have 2 very different styles, I'm not one for her style. I don't use all of Cesar's "techniques" by any means, however I would use more of his over hers anyday. Again though, it's a personal choice. Neither of them is right or wrong in my mind, IMO if you get your dog trained without harming the animal physically and your dog is a happy well rounded animal who listens to you and is well behaved, then you should choose which method works for you (obviously within the confines of the law and in not harming the animal) and give yourself a pat on the back when you've accomplished your goals.


----------



## RawFedDogs

BoxerMommie said:


> Sorry I don't believe that anyone is right or wrong on a personal choice which training is. There is more than one way to get it accomplished, nobody is right or wrong, it's just different.


Yes, there definately is a right or wrong way to train. It is defined by the treatment of the dog.



> She uses treats A LOT, which personally I do not agree with. I have NEVER trained with treats and yet all of my dogs got trained. I don't agree with bribing things, animals or kids, which basically holding a treat in front of it's face, that's exactly what you're doing.


So you agree with jerking on the leash, alpha rolls, jabbing with the fingers, pinching ears and flooding but you don't believe in rewarding good behavior? 



> Again though, it's a personal choice. Neither of them is right or wrong in my mind, IMO if you get your dog trained without harming the animal physically and your dog is a happy well rounded animal who listens to you and is well behaved, then you should choose which method works for you (obviously within the confines of the law and in not harming the animal) and give yourself a pat on the back when you've accomplished your goals.


Even if one causes pain, distrust, and anguish in the dog and the other rewards good behavior, they are both the same in your book? I think if you ever learned ... i mean really learned positive training you would change your mind.

Anytime you are using pain, coersion, or force to get an animal to behave the way you want, its wrong. There is no excuse for it in today's world. There is no justification for it because there are ways to get behaviors you want with positive non-painful methods. You can get the desired behaviors without mistreating the dog.

Properly used, treats they are not a bribe but a reward. THere is a big difference. Treats, if used correctly are used to teach a behavior then then weened away from that particular behavior.

Anytime you have to use pain, coersion, or force you are just admiting the dog is smarter than you are. Not meaning "you" personally, its "you" as a group of people who don't know how to train using positive methods.

To sum up ... yes there definately is a right and wrong way to train. Anyone can see it.


----------



## prntmkr

RawFedDogs said:


> Yes, there definately is a right or wrong way to train. It is defined by the treatment of the dog.
> 
> 
> 
> So you agree with jerking on the leash, alpha rolls, jabbing with the fingers, pinching ears and flooding but you don't believe in rewarding good behavior?
> 
> 
> 
> Even if one causes pain, distrust, and anguish in the dog and the other rewards good behavior, they are both the same in your book? I think if you ever learned ... i mean really learned positive training you would change your mind.
> 
> Anytime you are using pain, coersion, or force to get an animal to behave the way you want, its wrong. There is no excuse for it in today's world. There is no justification for it because there are ways to get behaviors you want with positive non-painful methods. You can get the desired behaviors without mistreating the dog.
> 
> Properly used, treats they are not a bribe but a reward. THere is a big difference. Treats, if used correctly are used to teach a behavior then then weened away from that particular behavior.
> 
> Anytime you have to use pain, coersion, or force you are just admiting the dog is smarter than you are. Not meaning "you" personally, its "you" as a group of people who don't know how to train using positive methods.
> 
> To sum up ... yes there definately is a right and wrong way to train. Anyone can see it.




I’m on my way out of town to a dog show. My last posting on this for a bit:

Sorry, Raw ... I know how you like to be right, but you’re wrong. There is definitely not a single "right or wrong way to train".

Like BoxerMommie, I’d rather not use treats in training, and never have with my own dogs. I don’t have an issue using treats – I just find they’re over-used, improperly used, and usually unnecessary. More often than not, they are not used as bribes and, quite often, dogs are never weaned off of them. It is simply not necessary to use treats when praise will do.

I don’t recall BoxerMommie saying that she, ‘agreed with jerking on the leash, alpha rolls, jabbing with the fingers, pinching ears and flooding but don't believe in rewarding good behaviour?’… I suspect that BoxerMommie prefers to praise her dog(s) rather than always carry a pocketful of treats.

Raw, where you and I differ in opinion, is that you find Millan’s techniques outdated and cruel. I feel that his premise is respect, balance and pack structure. You believe in treats and positive reinforcement. I believe in taking a balanced approach with rewarding good behaviour and correcting bad behaviour. I’ve found that punishment and treats are rarely, if ever, necessary.


----------



## BoxerMommie

RawFedDogs said:


> To sum up ... yes there definately is a right and wrong way to train. Anyone can see it.


Again we will just have to agree to disagree, I'm not arguing over and over again. I've stated my position, you can pick it apart if you choose. And in your mind there may be a right and wrong way, I personally disagree and that's evident with the multitude of ways to train animals that are out there. If it gets results and the animal is not hurt then I personally do not care what method people use it is a personal choice, not much different than raising human children.


----------



## rockymtsweetie82

RawFedDogs said:


> So you agree with jerking on the leash, alpha rolls, jabbing with the fingers, pinching ears and flooding but you don't believe in rewarding good behavior?


I don't agree with the simulating bites. It's an odd way to say your fingers mimic the "bite" of another dog which is how dogs communicate, however tugging on a leash (not jerking) and rewarding good behavior without the use of treats are my preferred method. China is excellent on the leash and I've never used treats to reward her good behavior. I think a dog enjoys it's owners pets and praise better than a treat that lasts a couple seconds til they gobble it down lol.


----------



## BoxerMommie

rockymtsweetie82 said:


> however tugging on a leash (not jerking) and rewarding good behavior without the use of treats are my preferred method. China is excellent on the leash and I've never used treats to reward her good behavior. I think a dog enjoys it's owners pets and praise better than a treat that lasts a couple seconds til they gobble it down lol.


I completely agree. I have always trained my dogs without treats, and yes for sit, down, etc I use a training device and a leash and I do tug on it to make them realize what I want them to do and then give praise and no treats. I never use treats for potty training either.


----------



## rockymtsweetie82

Neither have I. I think it's too hard to wean them off of them and then what? They think that they dont get treats anymore so they're not being good? So why not start rewarding with praise in the beginning instead of later and confusing them? I do believe that there are cases where Cesar leaves too soon, or I think, Ok how fast will that one particular dog go back to his/her normal ways because it wasn't completely resolved. But I don't believe that his methods are to be considered cruel. And as for Victoria, who goes to train a dog dressed like that? I hope she falls in poo. :0)


----------



## whiteleo

Well, I have to say my two cents worth. I trained show horses for 20 yrs, I went to many, many clinics and my philosophy is that you take a little bit of information that 
works for you, and incorporate it into your training program. I've learned alot of little things from different people and you put it all together and you get a wealth of info.


----------



## RawFedDogs

rockymtsweetie82 said:


> however tugging on a leash (not jerking) and rewarding good behavior without the use of treats are my preferred method.


A good trainer can get a dogs attention and show him what he is supposed to do without resorting to jerking or tugging on a leash. If you need a leash to keep the dogs attention, you are just using it as a crutch.



> China is excellent on the leash and I've never used treats to reward her good behavior. I think a dog enjoys it's owners pets and praise better than a treat that lasts a couple seconds til they gobble it down lol.


Its not really important to me whether or not you use treats. Praise works well if the owner knows the correct way to use it. There is also a correct and incorrect way to use treats. The important thing to me is whether or not you use negative means to get the dog to perform a behavior. Jerking or pulling on a leash certainly is negative to the dog.

In the last 5 or 6 years of my training carrer, with normal pet dogs, I didn't even use a leash except to teach loose leash walking. You kinda need a leash for that. I taught sit, down, stay, come, leave it, take it, give it, go to your place, etc without the use of a leash. Many times even with problem dogs, i found a leash wasn't necessary.


----------



## RawFedDogs

prntmkr said:


> Sorry, Raw ... I know how you like to be right, but you’re wrong. There is definitely not a single "right or wrong way to train".


What if I say "good or bad way to train"?



> Like BoxerMommie, I’d rather not use treats in training, and never have with my own dogs.


I don't really care whether you use treats or not. Praise or play work very good. I just care if someone uses negative reinforcement.



> I don’t have an issue using treats – I just find they’re over-used, improperly used, and usually unnecessary. More often than not, they are not used as bribes and, quite often, dogs are never weaned off of them. It is simply not necessary to use treats when praise will do.


Because people don't use a method correctly doesn't make the method any less effective or desirable when used correctly.



> Raw, where you and I differ in opinion, is that you find Millan’s techniques outdated and cruel. I feel that his premise is respect, balance and pack structure.


I don't think Cesar shows ANY respect to dogs, probably can't even spell "balance" and pack structure is an outdated concept in modern dog psychology and behavor.

[/quote]I believe in taking a balanced approach with rewarding good behaviour and correcting bad behaviour. I’ve found that punishment and treats are rarely, if ever, necessary.[/QUOTE]

Ah haaa ... the old "balanced approach". You see, if you properly use positive motivation methods to teach a dog, punishment is unnecessary. Punishment and treats are never necessary. However, properly used, treats can be a good teaching tool. Punishment is never a good teaching tool. It doesn't mean you can't train using punishment only. Its just not a good tool to use. Rewards are much more powerful and even more powerful by a factor of 10 if punishment is never used.

You won't understand that last statement unless you have lived with a dog who has never been hit, yelled at, jerked, pulled, or had any other negative method used in his entire life. The bond you have with a dog like that is unbelievable. He trusts you completely because he knows that no matter what happens, you will never hurt him.


----------



## RawFedDogs

BoxerMommie said:


> I completely agree. I have always trained my dogs without treats, and yes for sit, down, etc I use a training device and a leash and I do tug on it to make them realize what I want them to do and then give praise and no treats.


Are you saying you can't get a dog's attention, show him what to do, and enforce your "commands" without tugging on a leash?



> I never use treats for potty training either.


Bet you can ride a bicylce without using your hands too, but why would you want to? Just to show you can? :smile:


----------



## rockymtsweetie82

RawFedDogs said:


> A good trainer can get a dogs attention and show him what he is supposed to do without resorting to jerking or tugging on a leash. If you need a leash to keep the dogs attention, you are just using it as a crutch.
> 
> 
> 
> Its not really important to me whether or not you use treats. Praise works well if the owner knows the correct way to use it. There is also a correct and incorrect way to use treats. The important thing to me is whether or not you use negative means to get the dog to perform a behavior. Jerking or pulling on a leash certainly is negative to the dog.
> 
> In the last 5 or 6 years of my training carrer, with normal pet dogs, I didn't even use a leash except to teach loose leash walking. You kinda need a leash for that. I taught sit, down, stay, come, leave it, take it, give it, go to your place, etc without the use of a leash. Many times even with problem dogs, i found a leash wasn't necessary.


I don't use a leash to teach her sit, come, down, stay, leave it, take it, etc. etc. etc. The leash was so she wouldn't run off. And yes, a leash is necessary if you've got a runner and no fenced in yard. You want to teach the dog to stay with you before you go training without the leash. And a tug to get the dog to walk with me isn't cruel, it's reminding the dog that I am in control and that she must follow me. The leader. *sings* Following the leader the leader the leader. I'm following the leader wherever she may go. Te dum te de. A diddly do te day....

Anyways, I'm not going to argue about Cesar Millan. Because we all have our difference of opinions and stating whether one is right or wrong, good or bad, is just stirring that stinky pot. So, my initial question again. Should I try the No touch No talk, No eye contact with my company to get my pups to stop jumping/barking at them when they knock/walk through the door? Thanks!


----------



## RawFedDogs

rockymtsweetie82 said:


> Neither have I. I think it's too hard to wean them off of them and then what?


Then you need to learn how to wean them off treats. There is a method to it. It is easy and effective. The dogs quickly learn not to expect a treat everytime he does something and he doesn't refuse do it just because there is no treat around. The only reason he will refuse is because he doesn't understand what you want. Thats your fault, not his.



> They think that they dont get treats anymore so they're not being good?


Nope. Properly weaned, that is never a problem.



> So why not start rewarding with praise in the beginning instead of later and confusing them?


Using praise is fine. Praise is used heavily when weaning off treats. If you never want to use treats as a teaching tool, fine. Just don't ignore them for the reasons you list because your reasons just aren't true. Dogs don't get confused by weaning them off the treats. Actually if weaned correctly, they actually perform faster and sharper than they did before. There are sound psychological principles behind that.



> But I don't believe that his methods are to be considered cruel.


If you understood the psychological principles behind them and the mental damage he is doing to the dogs you would change your mind. Watch his show very closely. Look at the body language of the dogs he is training. Turn the sound off so you aren't swayed by the BS comming out of his mouth ... just watch the dog in silence. Many of those dogs are terrified. Even at the end of the training, you rarely see happy dogs.



> And as for Victoria, who goes to train a dog dressed like that? I hope she falls in poo. :0)


You should watch her, take notes and pay attention. You will learn a lot. She is 10 times the trainer Cesar is. I kinda like the way she dresses. :smile:


----------



## rockymtsweetie82

LOL Well, the way she dresses is rockin, no doubt, but to train dogs? What if she were to ruin those $2000 dollar boots she wears up to her knees? That would be a fashion crime! LOL. 

I have watched Victoria, as well as Cesar and yes, I do find that some of the dogs do look intimidated, shaken up, etc, But I really only want to know if the no touch, to talk, no eye contact would work or not, if properly executed. I'm not looking to beat my dog if she doesn't listen. I'm not even looking to leash train her in the house while I execute this training method, nor will I use the simulating bites, something roll you had said before or anything. And I don't want to do it using treats or clicks as I've not used those methods to train her with anything else she knows. She knows sit and stay it's just a matter of gaining her attention long enough to focus on me and actually LISTEN to me when we have company walking through that door or even knocking on it.


----------



## RawFedDogs

rockymtsweetie82 said:


> I don't use a leash to teach her sit, come, down, stay, leave it, take it, etc. etc. etc. The leash was so she wouldn't run off. And yes, a leash is necessary if you've got a runner and no fenced in yard.


A fenced in yard is a big plus. As a substitute, put a 20' long line on her collar and step on it if she gets too far away. You really should learn to train without the leash. It will make you a much better trainer. It will teach you how to keep the dog's attention and how to control her movements. Again, the leash is a crutch.



> You want to teach the dog to stay with you before you go training without the leash.


You can teach a dog to stay with you without the use of a leash. You must keep his attention. That takes practice.



> And a tug to get the dog to walk with me isn't cruel, it's reminding the dog that I am in control and that she must follow me. The leader.


Tugging on the leash is not a positive action to the dog. You don't have to remind the dog who is in control and who she must follow without a leash if you know how. This is a matter of attitude and you should learn how to do it.



> So, my initial question again. Should I try the No touch No talk, No eye contact with my company to get my pups to stop jumping/barking at them when they knock/walk through the door? Thanks!


Yes, that is a method that works pretty well. There are others I like better but if thats the one you want to use, go with it. The secret is to find one method and use only it. If you change methods every few days the dog will really become confused and will never learn.


----------



## rockymtsweetie82

The leash thing isn't my issue. As I said before she's done been leash trained as she's over a year old and now we do have a fenced in yard so we don't need the leash at all unless we go places in the car because of the leash law and because all other surroundings catch her attention too easily. And I'm open to other methods of training but I'd never given it much thought until I started watching Cesar (we JUST got the top 250 on dish back. I missed my NATGEO). So if there are other ways to teach her, I'd gladly be open to options and suggestions.


----------



## RawFedDogs

rockymtsweetie82 said:


> LOL Well, the way she dresses is rockin, no doubt, but to train dogs? What if she were to ruin those $2000 dollar boots she wears up to her knees? That would be a fashion crime! LOL.


Well, she is on TV. She is naturally going to dress nicer than if she is just visiting a normal client with no cameras around. However, I must admit ... If I hired her and she came dressed sloppy I would be greatly disappointed. :smile:

Her wardtobe also broadcasts a clear message to the client or potential client. That message is, "I am confident and I am in control. I know what I'm doing. I am capable of handling any situation that comes up quickly and effectively. I will teach your dog and handle any problem you are having with him. The money you pay me is well spent."


----------



## PeanutsMommy

I personally don't take my training tips from either tv show. I did most of my training with my dog on my own and some with professional training. I used a clicker to mark his good behavior and I used kibble for the inital reward and then I remove the kibble and replace it with praise and big pets. So he has learned that he has a few different types or rewards for good things. 
I have not used any leash tugging or simulated bites or anything like that.
I think that both those shows are fore entertainment purposes only not to train your own dog by since each dog responds to different methods.
I am not professional by any means but what I did for my dog seemed to work great with him he is very obedient and knows MANY tricks and I didnt use either of their methods.


----------



## rockymtsweetie82

Right, I did the same thing. Trained my dogs in my own way. But after seeing Cesar's one show about no touch etc, I thought I'd ask ya'lls opinions on it.


----------



## RawFedDogs

rockymtsweetie82 said:


> So if there are other ways to teach her, I'd gladly be open to options and suggestions.


Ok I have a few other methods you might want to try. BTW Victoria had a couple of recent shows lately about dogs with this problem. PM me your email addy and I'll type out some instructions on a couple of different methods. They will be pretty long so it might be a day or so before I have time to type them out.


----------



## BoxerMommie

RawFedDogs said:


> Are you saying you can't get a dog's attention, show him what to do, and enforce your "commands" without tugging on a leash?


I'm saying in the beginning, as a puppy, or when I first acquire (whenever that may be), I use a leash and training device to initially train yet (as most people do). Once they understand what I want, then we take it off and train without it. No, my dog now listens just fine and does what I ask without a leash attached to him, however the same was not so when he was 2 months old without a leash no.


----------



## BoxerMommie

rockymtsweetie82 said:


> Anyways, I'm not going to argue about Cesar Millan. Because we all have our difference of opinions and stating whether one is right or wrong, good or bad, is just stirring that stinky pot. So, my initial question again. Should I try the No touch No talk, No eye contact with my company to get my pups to stop jumping/barking at them when they knock/walk through the door? Thanks!


IMO yes, it works...at least it did for us. Good luck if you do try it.


----------



## PeanutsMommy

i would agree that you do that too if your dog is excited. i am still working on getting Peanut to be calm when i come home and the other day i learned i really need to work on it because i came home from the store opened the door...my over excited baby jumped up cracked me good in the face i ended up with a huge black and blue lip that was split open and a bump on the back of my head where i hit the wall. nothing like getting hit in the face with a pitbull head...

i would like to say IMO...petting a dog that is excited you are rewarding the behavior and they wont learn to stop unless you do something about it and ignoring the dog you are doing the exact opposite of the reason the dog is jumping in the first place. 

i could be wrong but thats the way i see it


----------



## rockymtsweetie82

PeanutsMommy said:


> i would agree that you do that too if your dog is excited. i am still working on getting Peanut to be calm when i come home and the other day i learned i really need to work on it because i came home from the store opened the door...my over excited baby jumped up cracked me good in the face i ended up with a huge black and blue lip that was split open and a bump on the back of my head where i hit the wall. nothing like getting hit in the face with a pitbull head...
> 
> i would like to say IMO...petting a dog that is excited you are rewarding the behavior and they wont learn to stop unless you do something about it and ignoring the dog you are doing the exact opposite of the reason the dog is jumping in the first place.
> 
> i could be wrong but thats the way i see it


Oh no. That is not fun! I usually get clocked in the chin by China's pitbull head when we're rough-housing. Slamming my teeth together lol. 

I agree. I need to train my company so they don't reward her behavior by petting her when they come right in.


----------



## EnglishBullTerriers

whiteleo said:


> Well, I have to say my two cents worth. I trained show horses for 20 yrs, I went to many, many clinics and my philosophy is that you take a little bit of information that
> works for you, and incorporate it into your training program. I've learned alot of little things from different people and you put it all together and you get a wealth of info.


I agree. I have trained horses and I have trained a few dogs. The one thing that I have learned about training in general is, take what you can and apply it to your situation. Everyone has a different approach to training and I think that you should not dismiss anyone just because you don't agree with one thing they say.


----------



## BabyHusky

i like both trainers. They both have their own different ways. Her dress code is definitely off. I could see why men would approve, but seriously...lets be realistic. Society just likes to see pretty things and thats one way shes trying to be more aesthetically pleasing. I'm usually looking at the dogs instead of her anyway haha

lastly, i would like to once again ask that certain individuals tone down their insistent "i'm right" opinions. i think we all know by now that many of us have different opinions; some accept that and take others opinions into consideration; some just respect the opinion but disagree; and unfortunately, others are too involved with trying to prove they are correct and others are wrong. please respect everyones opinions so we can enjoy forums with minimal altercations.


----------



## RawFedDogs

BabyHusky said:


> Society just likes to see pretty things and thats one way shes trying to be more aesthetically pleasing.


As I said earlier, her attire sends a message and a very good one.



> I'm usually looking at the dogs instead of her anyway haha


There are dogs on her show? I never noticed. :smile: :smile:



> lastly, i would like to once again ask that certain individuals tone down their insistent "i'm right" opinions.


Oh, Im so sorry. I must have missed the memo that said we have to get our posts ok'd by you before we make them.



> i think we all know by now that many of us have different opinions;


My opinions are backed up by fact and many years of experience. It doesn't bother me when someone disagrees with me but if they do they can expect facts pointing out where they are wrong.

People who cant back up their opinions get upset when someone disagrees with them and/or tells them they are wrong and points how how they are wrong and why.



> others are too involved with trying to prove they are correct and others are wrong. please respect everyones opinions so we can enjoy forums with minimal altercations.


Proving other wrong or myself right is not so important as giving facts backing up one side or the other. "I feel ...." or "I prefer ..." or "I had rather ..." are not facts. 

"I feel ..<this>.... because of ..<that>... and ...<those>... and this other thing can't be right because ..<these things>..." is a real discussion where something can be learned if one is not too stubborn to learn them. No one benefits from "i feel ...." and "I prefer...." with no back up data. These are the ones who prefer the "me too" posts. No one learns from "me too".

One should decide if they want to have honest learning discussions or just a social group with meaningless small talk. THere are both kinds of threads here. I try to avoid the small talk threads. I have no interest in them. If the learning discussions bothered me, I would avoid them. For some reason I can't understand some feel the need to read every post on every thread eventhough they are bothered by some posts.


----------



## rockymtsweetie82

Wow. So...A simple Cesar Millan post is starting to turn snippy. I like Cesar. I like the show It's Me or The Dog. I don't plan on watching any of these shows for anything other than entertainment and that's that. Excuse me for trying to ask a simple question and it turns into a dang argument.


----------



## RawFedDogs

rockymtsweetie82 said:


> Wow. So...A simple Cesar Millan post is starting to turn snippy.


Hehe, I am on about 20 lists and have never seen a thread with Cesar's name on it be much different than this one.  They usually split about 50/50 with good/bad. The only ones that are different are the dog trainer lists where hardly anyone has anything positive to say about him. :smile:


----------



## PeanutsMommy

rockymtsweetie82 said:


> Wow. So...A simple Cesar Millan post is starting to turn snippy. I like Cesar. I like the show It's Me or The Dog. I don't plan on watching any of these shows for anything other than entertainment and that's that. Excuse me for trying to ask a simple question and it turns into a dang argument.


hehehe on forums you get to find out peoples buttons...if you think about it people get touchy about odd things (not refering to this particular thread). my favorites so far on other forums are people who dont like being told they feed their dogs crap food. From forums I learned to get my dog far far away from nutro and that was causing his vomiting. I learned others information just makes them want to argue. Thats why I love this forum...everyone is here talking about the good foods


----------



## BabyHusky

lol peanuts. Yes...i love this forum for the information everyone brings.

RawFed, i never said you needed to get "approved" by me. i'm merely stating that you are a moderator on this forum and many of the little altercations on this forum involve you. i'm just asking that you tone it down and respect that not everyone agrees with you and just because you say everything you say is a fact, does not mean other people will see it that way. 

you have so much information to give, yet many times its perceived wrong because of your attitude and your way of delivery. if you truly only cared about the well being of our pets (not just you always being right), you should maybe look into communicating better.


----------



## Rexandbaby

I am actually enjoying this thread!


----------



## rannmiller

Yeah, so am I! That and I don't ever watch any of these shows unless I'm at someone's house who has TV and I have nothing else to do. I've only seen a handful of episodes from each show, so yeah, I don't get to have much of an opinion on the matter, so I love everyone else's!


----------



## Rexandbaby

I too, can't watch, but I keep begging for Satalite (sp) TV!:biggrin:


----------



## Guest

I've watched both shows and enjoy them. I take a little bit from each and work it into whatever works best for my dogs. I find the shows entertaining as well.


----------



## RawFedDogs

LabbieMama said:


> I've watched both shows and enjoy them. I take a little bit from each and work it into whatever works best for my dogs. I find the shows entertaining as well.


The problem is that when you mix both positive and negative aspects into a training program, the positive methods aren't as effective as they would be if no negativity is present. The dog never knows when something negative will happen to him so he is afraid to be relaxed enough to perform under the positive aspects.

For example, when a dog who has been trained with aversives gets confused or doesn't understand what is being asked of him, will always do nothing because he knows if what he does is wrong he will get a negative action from the trainer (punished).

When a 100% positive trained dog gets confused or doesn't understand what is being asked of him, after a few seconds of thought, will do something whether it is right or wrong. He will guess at the behavior while hoping he gets it right. He knows nothing negative will happen just because he makes a mistake. I have seen this happen over and over. It's one reason that its so much more fun to train 100% positive. Both the dog and the trainer enjoy it so much more.

For a positive training program to operate most effeciently, no aversive actions by the trainer can take place. All training should be fun and exciting. Thats why the phylosophy of "I reward him when he does good and will punish him when he doesn't" isn't the best method. It decreases the effectiveness of the postive part of the program.


----------



## ChattyCathy

Gotta say I never heard of Victoria Stillwell until now but I did watch many episodes of Cesar Milan. Most of his techniques never worked for me because I would get stymied by something in the process and he wasn't there to tell me what I needed to do next... so when I got my puppy (now 1 1/2 yrs. old) I wanted to make sure she got trained properly as I hadn't trained a puppy in over ten years because I always got rescue/shelter/hand me down dogs which, don't get me wrong, I love but I wanted a puppy. I also went to a trainer. I then decided to buy these two books that came highly recommended to me and I love them and I still refer to them. They are written by The Monks of New Skete. The Monks are known for raising German Shepherds but their techniques are, I believe, great for any dog. The books are "The Art of Raising A Puppy" and "How to Be Your Dog's Best Friend." I know, I know, who wants to read a book, much less two books? But, I gotta tell ya -- they are two good books. IMO.


----------



## RawFedDogs

ChattyCathy said:


> I believe, great for any dog. The books are "The Art of Raising A Puppy" and "How to Be Your Dog's Best Friend."


Unless the books have been pretty recently revised they are old and out of date. I know they revised "How to Be Your Dog's Best Friend" about 10 years ago to remove references to the alpha roll. I don't know if they made any other changes. I haven't read the books in about 16 years so hopefully they are more up to date now.

I recommend 4 very good dog books in no particular order:
The Other End of the Leash by Dr Patricia McConnell
The Culture Clash by Jean Donaldson
The Power of Positive Dog Training by Pat Miller
Clicking With Your Dog by Peggy Tillman

I haven't read any dog training books in the last 7 years so there are probably some new ones I'm not familiar with.

*ETA:* At the time I was familiar with them, the Monks of New Skete were not positive trainers. Like I said, its been a long time so maybe there are now.


----------



## ChattyCathy

RawFedDogs said:


> Unless the books have been pretty recently revised they are old and out of date. I know they revised "How to Be Your Dog's Best Friend" about 10 years ago to remove references to the alpha roll. I don't know if they made any other changes. I haven't read the books in about 16 years so hopefully they are more up to date now.


You're right they are out of date; one is from 1991 and the other "How to Be Your Dog's Best Friend" was revised in 2002. I did buy over 15 books and took a little out of each one. (I kinda overdo it when I'm researching something and I like to read.) I don't think one person or one group of people know all things about everything so I like to take a little from what I believe works and incorporate it to my and my "animal family." IMO


----------



## rockymtsweetie82

I don't refer to books when trying to train and I can't even resort to training off of the internet only because I like to have someone here with me helping to walk me through it. I get easily distracted and if I have to refer to a darn book just to tell me what to do, I'd also get frustrated so I stick to TV or a professional trainer.  But I'll be taking China for her first course soon so I won't have to refer to books or internet anymore for that hopefully, if these people are good trainers. We'll see. Ya never know til ya get there.


----------



## RawFedDogs

rockymtsweetie82 said:


> I don't refer to books when trying to train and I can't even resort to training off of the internet only because I like to have someone here with me helping to walk me through it.


Always the best choice.



> if these people are good trainers. We'll see. Ya never know til ya get there.


Most reputable training facilities will allow you to monitor a class or two alone before bringing your dog so you can decide if what they do is what you want.


----------



## prntmkr

RawFedDogs said:


> The problem is that when you mix both positive and negative aspects into a training program, the positive methods aren't as effective as they would be if no negativity is present. The dog never knows when something negative will happen to him so he is afraid to be relaxed enough to perform under the positive aspects.
> 
> For example, when a dog who has been trained with aversives gets confused or doesn't understand what is being asked of him, will always do nothing because he knows if what he does is wrong he will get a negative action from the trainer (punished).
> 
> When a 100% positive trained dog gets confused or doesn't understand what is being asked of him, after a few seconds of thought, will do something whether it is right or wrong. He will guess at the behavior while hoping he gets it right. He knows nothing negative will happen just because he makes a mistake. I have seen this happen over and over. It's one reason that its so much more fun to train 100% positive. Both the dog and the trainer enjoy it so much more.
> 
> For a positive training program to operate most effeciently, no aversive actions by the trainer can take place. All training should be fun and exciting. Thats why the phylosophy of "I reward him when he does good and will punish him when he doesn't" isn't the best method. It decreases the effectiveness of the postive part of the program.


I’ve only been on this forum for a short time, but I can see that you like to get in the last word, Raw. I’ll put in what, hopefully, will be my last 2 cents on this subject, and then let you comment and pick apart what I say (enjoy!). )

-Firstly, although I disagree with much of what you say, in reality, your training methodology (aside from the treat thing) and mine are probably quite similar. One difference lies in the fact that I don’t have a problem with the _concept_ of punishment, and wouldn’t hesitate to punish one of my dogs _if and when_ I thought it necessary. 
_The fact is that I cannot remember the last time I punished one of my dogs._ If I had to guess, I’d say it’s been at least 15 - 20 years. I don't punish my dogs, because they don't need punishment; I still believe in the _concept_ of punishment, and wouldn't hesitate to punish if I felt the need.

-There _IS_ a difference between a "leash correction" (or, as you call it, “jerking”) and punishment. I’m not certain that you differentiate between the two? 

A truly dominant, tough or protective dog – an intelligent dog who is hard-wired to protect, cannot always be swayed by clickers and treats; he/she must learn to trust and respect the pack leader. Please note that I do not say the dog must be fearful of, or be intimidated by the pack leader.



RawFedDogs said:


> Rewards are much more powerful and even more powerful by a factor of 10 if punishment is never used.
> 
> You won't understand that last statement unless you have lived with a dog who has never been hit, yelled at, jerked, pulled, or had any other negative method used in his entire life. The bond you have with a dog like that is unbelievable. He trusts you completely because he knows that no matter what happens, you will never hurt him.


-I honestly cannot imagine anyone having a stronger, more intimate bond with a dog than we have with ours. Our current little boy (105 pounds and still growing), although very tough and highly protective, is extremely sweet and affectionate. Friends who meet him think I’m joking about his tough, protective side; he greets friendly people and friendly dogs like a well-behaved Golden Retriever. In his past 2 ½ years, unless you consider a leash correction “punishment” (and if so, give me a freakin’ break!), I’ve never had to “punish” him. I’ve raised my voice one single time when he hit puberty – to stop him mid-stride, from attacking a dog who had displayed threatening body language our way (a long, uninteresting story)… 

Having said that, I’ve raised and trained him (and all of our other dogs over the past 30+ years) using, what _I feel_ is the same philosophy as Cesar Milan. However, Raw, _your_ perception of C.M. and mine are quite different:

What _I _ take from his show, and what _I_ see in C.M., is a person who has put into words a philosophy which has worked for _me_ over the past 3 decades (_please note that I do not say that other methods will not work effectively ... just that these methods have worked for me_):

*-to be a calm assertive pack leader,
-that anger is counter production,
-correction should always be done calmly,
-punishment is rarely necessary, and is dolled out with calm assertion
-that the walk is more than just exercise; it’s a primal bonding experience and a benign means to becoming and maintaining “alpha” pack status.
-that dogs react to emotions: fear, anger, joy etc.
-that dogs respect calm, self-confidence*

These are what _I believe _to be the precepts of C.M.'s dog philosophy.

I cannot comment some violent moron who pokes and alpha rolls his poor pooch, simply because he saw it on the Dog Whisperer. I can only answer for myself. 

The simple fact is that I happen to agree with, what you would consider to be, Millan’s more “brutal methods” with his tough, hardened cases - _even though I’ve never felt the need to use them myself_… 

On the other hand, I’ve always enjoyed the opportunity to shape my dogs’ behaviour from early puppy hood.

Lastly, you said about your all positive training methods that, _*“Because people don't use a method correctly doesn't make the method any less effective or desirable when used correctly.” *_Here, we agree 100%. But I would say the exact same of C.M.’s methods. )

p.s. I have to ask. And not that it really matters, but what kind of dog(s) do you have, Raw?


----------



## RawFedDogs

prntmkr said:


> I’ve only been on this forum for a short time, but I can see that you like to get in the last word, Raw. I’ll put in what, hopefully, will be my last 2 cents on this subject, and then let you comment and pick apart what I say (enjoy!). )


I will ... thank you. :smile:



> -Firstly, although I disagree with much of what you say, in reality, your training methodology (aside from the treat thing) and mine are probably quite similar. One difference lies in the fact that I don’t have a problem with the _concept_ of punishment, and wouldn’t hesitate to punish one of my dogs _if and when_ I thought it necessary.


Hehe, I really got a chuckle out of this ... you disagree with what I say but your training methods are pretty much the same as mine and you think its ok to punish, you just don't find it necessary. I don't really care if someone uses treats or not. They are just a good training tool and if for some reason you feel you don't want to use that tool I have no problem. As long as you don't cause pain, either physical or mental to a dog, I have no problems. Don't you find it odd that the things you disagree with me about, you don't use anyway? :smile:



> _The fact is that I cannot remember the last time I punished one of my dogs._ If I had to guess, I’d say it’s been at least 15 - 20 years. I don't punish my dogs, because they don't need punishment; I still believe in the _concept_ of punishment, and wouldn't hesitate to punish if I felt the need.


So what you are saying is that a dog who is raised and treated properly don't need punishment. I agree. If you thought about it thoroughly you might agree that a dog that behaves improperly does so because he hasn't been taught the proper way to behave, not because he is just trying to be a jerk.



> -There _IS_ a difference between a "leash correction" (or, as you call it, “jerking”) and punishment. I’m not certain that you differentiate between the two?


I don't. They are just varying degrees of the same thing. Using "just a little" force is still using force.



> A truly dominant, tough or protective dog – an intelligent dog who is hard-wired to protect, cannot always be swayed by clickers and treats; he/she must learn to trust and respect the pack leader. Please note that I do not say the dog must be fearful of, or be intimidated by the pack leader.


In my 15 year career of training dogs, I came across many dogs like you describe. If a dog can be swayed by coersion and force, he can be swayed by positive means whether by clicker or whatever positive method you choose. Positive methods will yield faster, stronger, longer lasting results. I've seen it done and I've done it myself. The positive trainer must often be more savy.



> -I honestly cannot imagine anyone having a stronger, more intimate bond with a dog than we have with ours.


Of course you can't imagine it if you've never done it. I can't imagine jumping from an airplane but many people do it every day. 



> Having said that, I’ve raised and trained him (and all of our other dogs over the past 30+ years) using, what _I feel_ is the same philosophy as Cesar Milan. However, Raw, _your_ perception of C.M. and mine are quite different:


If you have any admiration for him, that is a very true statement. But you have to make up your mind. Above, you say that your training methods are just like mine except you don't use treats. Now you say they are like Cesars. Both statements can't be true. Which is it?



> What _I _ take from his show, and what _I_ see in C.M., is a person who has put into words a philosophy which has worked for _me_ over the past 3 decades (_please note that I do not say that other methods will not work effectively ... just that these methods have worked for me_):


I never said they don't work. They obviously do. Those methods of dog training have been used for hundreds, maybe thousands of years. I used them myself for a few years in my early training career until I found better, faster, more productive methods.



> -to be a calm assertive pack leader,


The pack mentality is kinda going by the wayside as we learn more and more about dog psycology and learning theory. Methods like operant conditioning, classical conditioning, desensitization, counter conditioning, schedules of reinforcement and methods of reinforcement are all tools modern trainers of today use. It's much more complex but yield better results than "show'em who's boss".



> -that anger is counter production,


We agree.



> -correction should always be done calmly,
> -punishment is rarely necessary, and is dolled out with calm assertion


A good knowledgable trainer just doesn't need these two methods.



> -that the walk is more than just exercise; it’s a primal bonding experience and a benign means to becoming and maintaining “alpha” pack status.


Again, "alpha" and pack mentatility are quickly becoming outdated thinking. Anytime two beings do something together that both enjoy, its a bonding experience. Forcing the dog to walk behind and other rediculous rules of walking are counter productive.



> -that dogs _react_ to emotions: fear, anger, joy etc.


We agree on this.



> -that dogs _respect_ calm, self-confidence


Confidence of the teacher is important in any teaching situation. This is a general statement that applies wether you are teaching humans, dogs, or any other animal.



> These are what _I believe _to be the precepts of C.M.'s dog philosophy.


Don't get me wrong. Everything Cesar says isn't wrong but a good bit of it is and the methodology he uses is very outdated. MUCH has been learned in the animal training world in the last 15 years and the animal training methods have changed greatly duiring this time.



> I cannot comment some violent moron who pokes and alpha rolls his poor pooch, simply because he saw it on the Dog Whisperer. I can only answer for myself.


It doesn't matter where you see it, it's wrong. Jabbing dogs with fingers and alpha rolling are just very antiquated training methods. Even the Monks of New Skeet who popularized alpha rolls in their book about being your dogs best friend have removed references to alpha rolls from their book. Demonstrating them on TV each week is unforgivable.



> The simple fact is that I happen to agree with, what you would consider to be, Millan’s more “brutal methods” with his tough, hardened cases - _even though I’ve never felt the need to use them myself_…


I have handled plenty of tough hardened cases and always could manage to find positive methods to achieve the goal with the dog.



> Lastly, you said about your all positive training methods that, _*“Because people don't use a method correctly doesn't make the method any less effective or desirable when used correctly.” *_Here, we agree 100%. But I would say the exact same of C.M.’s methods. )


That could be true. ANYTIME you inflict pain on a dog whether that pain is mental, physical, or psychological just to get the dog to act the way you think he should is wrong. There are always positive means to change behaviors. Why on earth would anyone want to inflict pain when they could accomplish the same goal with no pain? It just doesn't make sense. Well, let me correct myself. It' makes sense when the trainer just doesn't know any better.

I will repeat my statement that Cesar Millan is a very mediocre trainer at best. There are at least 10,000 better trainers across the country.



> p.s. I have to ask. And not that it really matters, but what kind of dog(s) do you have, Raw?


I have 2 Great Danes. One is 8 1/2 years old and I adopted from a rescue at 1 year of age. The other is 4 years old and I adopted him from a rescue at 12 weeks of age. Hehe, I also have 2 cats who are well trained by positive methods. I have also in my life trained rats, chickens, birds of prey, a few other cats and several thousand dogs. All trained with 100% positive methods.


----------



## PeanutsMommy

Rawfedogs

are there dogs that wont respond to any form of training? my brother has a dog a week older then my dog and my boy listens wonderfully (on my own methods that worked for him anyway dont know if they are right) anyways his dog has to be one of the most ignorant dog ever. she does not even try to listen. shes 10 months old and barely will sit when asked. its not my dog so i am not going to work with her and my brother doesnt want me to but i was just wondering if you ever had any dogs like that that just wont respond to any training.
one of her big issues is she runs out the door and everyone has to spend 40 minutes trying to get her in...i dont think she even knows her name


----------



## RawFedDogs

PeanutsMommy said:


> are there dogs that wont respond to any form of training?


I have seen a few dogs that were "mis-wired" from birth that neither me nor other trainers could fix. These dogs were pretty wild and would attack people, other dogs, and even their owners. By no means were they normal. You would know if your brother's dog was like this. In 15 years I only saw 3 of them.



> she does not even try to listen.


Are you sure she can hear?



> shes 10 months old and barely will sit when asked.


Sounds like possibly she has never been taught. Without seeing her, it's imposible to say much more.



> its not my dog so i am not going to work with her and my brother doesnt want me to but i was just wondering if you ever had any dogs like that that just wont respond to any training.


Except for the brain damaged ones listed above, no. Every animal can be taught behaviors. I have seen trained gold fish. Any animal with a properly working brain can be taught.



> one of her big issues is she runs out the door and everyone has to spend 40 minutes trying to get her in...i dont think she even knows her name


Hehe, she is not the only dog like that. IT seems to be a dog's favorite gaime, "catch me if you can". Dogs love that game can always win every time. :smile: That is no big problem. It's pretty easy to fix.

Don't be so sure she knows her name. I had two goldens one time that were so cute. Any time you would tell one to do something the other would do it also. It took me a couple of years to figure out that both would respond to both names. It took me a couple of days to straighten that out.


----------



## rockymtsweetie82

I hope so because if I don't like these guys I'm going to Hello Bully in Pittsburgh. They specialize right with the bully breeds and I know it'll cost more (*why I wanna try out the closer guys first) and I'm sure it'll work faster since they get right to the point and not dilly dally with all the routine stuff China already knows. lol


----------



## PeanutsMommy

well i think this dog has some brain damage..my brothers wife is sorta rough on puppies 
she can hear because when you talk to her she will look directly at you she just doesnt want to do what you ask her to.
my brother doesnt know how to work with dogs he hasnt done anything with her what she does know my grandparents have worked with and about all they got her doing is sit when she feels like she wants to.
with her running out in the yard its frustrating because of the 3 dogs here the other 2 will come right to you when called her you move not even towards her shes darting away. it must look funny driving by seeing adults chasing a puppy in a yard.
i have tried a few things to correct her that have worked with my dog and she just will bark in my face and run off...i think that this dog may be one of the wire crossed dogs either that or she would benefit from one of those training camps where you send your dog off to be trained then go pick up after so long with a professional working with the dog....but they think shes fine..it just seems like this poor dog is a lost cause...i was just curious if as a professional trainer you had people or dogs that just fail.


----------



## rockymtsweetie82

PeanutsMommy said:


> Rawfedogs
> 
> are there dogs that wont respond to any form of training? my brother has a dog a week older then my dog and my boy listens wonderfully (on my own methods that worked for him anyway dont know if they are right) anyways his dog has to be one of the most ignorant dog ever. she does not even try to listen. shes 10 months old and barely will sit when asked. its not my dog so i am not going to work with her and my brother doesnt want me to but i was just wondering if you ever had any dogs like that that just wont respond to any training.
> one of her big issues is she runs out the door and everyone has to spend 40 minutes trying to get her in...i dont think she even knows her name


I know my name's not Rawfedogs, BUT the one thing that's worked for me when China escapes (because of the game, you can see her huge smile while she runs passed us at full speed) is to walk away. I come inside, let her get out some energy, grab a treat ( dog cookies work best for her but something with a heavy meat smell might work better for your brother's dog) and just sit down and wait. I just wait. I keep an eye on her, cuz I know all she wants is for me to chase her, which I will not do, and I just wait. When she comes to me, begging for the treat, I grab her collar, bring her inside with me, then make her sit/lay down/etc anything to make her earn the treat. I don't use treats as a training tool, but I do use them every now and then when I have to entice a very active pup lol.


----------



## BoxerMommie

PeanutsMommy said:


> well i think this dog has some brain damage..my brothers wife is sorta rough on puppies
> she can hear because when you talk to her she will look directly at you she just doesnt want to do what you ask her to.
> my brother doesnt know how to work with dogs he hasnt done anything with her what she does know my grandparents have worked with and about all they got her doing is sit when she feels like she wants to.
> with her running out in the yard its frustrating because of the 3 dogs here the other 2 will come right to you when called her you move not even towards her shes darting away. it must look funny driving by seeing adults chasing a puppy in a yard.
> i have tried a few things to correct her that have worked with my dog and she just will bark in my face and run off...i think that this dog may be one of the wire crossed dogs either that or she would benefit from one of those training camps where you send your dog off to be trained then go pick up after so long with a professional working with the dog....but they think shes fine..it just seems like this poor dog is a lost cause...i was just curious if as a professional trainer you had people or dogs that just fail.



They should probably have her medically tested to see if she is deaf either partially or fully. I pet sat a deaf dog and she'd look at me when I talked to her too, but she was as deaf as could be and in some aspects it was very obvious (ie when she was sleeping or when she was on the side of the house and couldn't see me) in others not so much (ie when she was in front of me). Whether or not a dog is deaf shouldn't be just the word of someone it really should be tested by a professional.

And if they think she's fine, well she's their dog. I'd say more so than her wires being cross is that there's never been reward or punishment for her sitting or doing anything correctly. If you don't consistently work with the animal then yeah it's not going to know anything and therefore just look at you because they have no idea what you want them to do.


----------



## PeanutsMommy

rockmtsweetie82
we tried that with her it didnt work!! she keeps running around like a crazy. we even sent the other dog out to round her up but the other dog gives up on her.

BoxerMommie
i think that it is a combination of the 2 my brother and his wife are uneducated on dogs and refuse to listen to anything and spend no time with her and the fact that the dog has some odd quirks that i think may have something to do with her wires being crossed...she took a few hits from her owners as a little puppy and i think that is having a lasting affect on the dog which makes it hard to walk thru the house as she barks as you walk near her not chasing you but just barks even


----------



## TJ99959

In over 50 years of training dogs so far I have only run into 2 totally untrainable dogs. ironically they were litter mates. They were GSPs.
A friend (also a trainer) took them in for gun dog basics. After about a month he called me wanting to know if I had any ideas. For the next 3 months the two of us never got anywhere with them. Every day was just like the first day (a goat roping contest with them) Someone must have stuck a vacuum hose up their noses when they were pups because there sure wasn't anything up there.
So while it is possible to run into one that can't be trained, it sure is unlikely.

The problem with C.M. is that his TV show is completely single faceted, seen one seen them all.

This is the same thing I find wrong with the idea of "positive reinforcement training". There simply is no such thing, it is totally impossible.
The simple act of not giving the dog the cookie is "NEGATIVE PUNISHMENT" withholding praise is negative punishment, so as a bare minimum two portions of operant conditioning must be used. There simply is no way out of it.
I use all four portions of operant conditioning, but with an EMPHASES on positive reinforcement.

As far as the original question about an unruly dog around strangers, just teach it the alternative behavior that you do want (which can be done with an emphasis on positive reinforcement) instead of trying to just correct the behavior you don't want (which can only be done with positive or negative punishment)

reinforcement enhances or causes a behavior
punishment reduces or prevents a behavior
positive is to add something
negative is to withhold something

has nothing what so ever to do with smacking or not smacking the dog
A swat on the butt with a stick is "positive reinforcement" if it *caused or enhanced* a desired behavior by the *addition* of the swat with a stick.

Where the problem lies is thinking that operant conditioning definitions have something to do with being nice or not, when the definitions are completely different. By understanding the concepts both positive and negative punishment can be done "nicely", but they are not as effective as reinforcement, positive or negative.

Here is a flow chart of how competitive retrievers are trained.
Absolutly not necessary to go this far for non competitive training
http://www.totalretriever.com/rj/totalretPDF.pdf
Mike Lardy trained dogs have won 20 national championships.


----------

