# 4-D Meats



## Cliffdog

Based on a different thread... please give your opinion on feeding 4-D meat... be it raw or kibbled.


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## SerenityFL

Glad you started this, I was thinking of doing the same after reading another thread on here. Just wasn't sure where to put it. Some people say don't ever do it, some people say they feed it. I'd like to know because IF it's really not too bad, there's a butcher not far from here where I can get beef super cheap...and I really need all the help I can get in the "expensive meals" department right about now!


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## Scarlett_O'

If its being fed that should be the owner's call. 
So in raw it is up to each person as to what they are comfortable depending on their dog's health, stomach tolerance, etc...
In kibble it shouldnt be allowed, as that doesnt allow for it to be the owner's choice.


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## Cliffdog

I am okay with 4-D meat, personally, but I do tend to agree with you Scarlett that kibble companies shouldn't use it (or if they do, they should let you know). I've never had a problem with 4-D meat because I was raised around racing greyhounds fed a mixture of kibble and "not for human consumption" meat, and they were all healthy, happy dogs with brilliant coats and energy, better than any kibble fed dogs I'd ever seen (although I didn't realize back then that it was probably due to diet). The only problem any of my grandpa's dogs had was tooth problems, and I don't care how good the meat quality is, if you feed ground with no RMBs, you are gonna have rotten teeth...


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## CavePaws

Let's see...Downed is one of them right?

Ya, if a cow broke it's leg and hadn't gotten up for a couple days...and didn't have any crazy festering infection. I'd probably chop it into pieces and feed it to my pups.


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## RawFedDogs

I've fed rotten meat before with no problem. I wouldn't feed it meal after meal after meal of rotten meals but one or two meals a week shouldn't be a big deal. I would really have no problem with kibble companies usisng it because any bacteria on it would be killed during the rendering process. It doesn't sound tasty to us but the dogs love it.


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## SpooOwner

It sounds like people don't like lumping all "4-Ds" (dead, diseased, disabled, or dying prior to slaughter) together in one category. Even each "D" is too broad: for example, disabled- I'd want to know more about the disability. Or why the animal is dying prior to slaughter, etc....


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## Porphyria

Cliffdog said:


> I am okay with 4-D meat, personally, but I do tend to agree with you Scarlett that kibble companies shouldn't use it (or if they do, they should let you know). I've never had a problem with 4-D meat because I was raised around racing greyhounds fed a mixture of kibble and "not for human consumption" meat, and they were all healthy, happy dogs with brilliant coats and energy, better than any kibble fed dogs I'd ever seen (although I didn't realize back then that it was probably due to diet). The only problem any of my grandpa's dogs had was tooth problems, and I don't care how good the meat quality is, if you feed ground with no RMBs, you are gonna have rotten teeth...


I don't know, poor Alabama rot is a disease in the racing grey world that results from a certain strain of e coli, and is generally attributed to poor quality meat.

I agree with spoo owner; I may be ok with some "d's," but not others. I would not want to feed my dog any part of a diseased animal, but I don't necessarily see what's wrong with a downed animal. I also agree with everyone who has said that kibble companies should have to disclose whether or not they used 4d meats.


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## RawFedDogs

Porphyria said:


> I also agree with everyone who has said that kibble companies should have to disclose whether or not they used 4d meats.


I think they all do.


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## Caty M

Diseased? I wouldn't feed that RAW to my pets.. but I'd assume any bacteria/virus/parasite would be killed in the high cooking temps? So I'd think it would be fine in kibble? Downed I'd have no problem with.. dying, well it depends what it's dying OF..


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## xellil

Freddie!

I think it would depend on which "D" they are talking about, whether I would feed it.


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## Cliffdog

The likelihood of Alabama Rot has a lot to do with the company that meat comes from, and how it's handled. We got our meat from a company called "Qual-Pet" and I would stand behind that company still. I had never heard of such a thing as Alabama Rot until I started reading about Greyhounds online, because every person at our local track (and tracks near us) used Qual-Pet and I never once heard of a dog contracting said affliction.


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## tem_sat

RawFedDogs said:


> I think they all do.


Does that mean:

1. They _do_ disclose?

or 

2. They _all use_ 4-D meats?


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## Cliffdog

I do understand peoples' concerns about the meat, though. I'd completely respect anyone who didn't choose to feed such meats.


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## RawFedDogs

tem_sat said:


> Does that mean:
> 
> 1. They _do_ disclose?
> 
> or
> 
> 2. They _all use_ 4-D meats?


#2 :smile:


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## Cliffdog

I'm pretty sure most pre-made raw is made with 4-D also. Unless it expressly states otherwise.


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## Caty M

Cliffdog said:


> I'm pretty sure most pre-made raw is made with 4-D also. Unless it expressly states otherwise.


With how much it costs.. it shouldn't be made with it!! It costs as much per lb as steak here, haha.


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## CorgiPaws

As far as raw feeding:
Hmmm. I think for me it would be case by case. 
My dogs have dug into dead animals on hikes, and I don't pry it out of their mouths, but I also don't seek it out or use it for every meal. They've never had an issue on these occasions. 
I would not feed an animal that has been medically/chemically euthanized, and THAT does go into kibble. *shudder* I would throw 1000 lbs of meat away if it was pumped full of the juice, before I'd feed it to my dogs.

As far as commercial foods:
I think my gripe with "chicken" (for example) in commercial dog foods isn't even so much the 4D meats as it is.... the fact that's it's not even necessarily MEAT. Yes, I feed chicken feet, and I feed the entire animal when we butcher our own. But beaks, feet, and frames shouldn't make up the main part of the diet. Also, bruises and tumors.... well, I'm not sure of their nutritional content, and that's the kind of "meat" that goes into kibble.


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## Porphyria

RawFedDogs said:


> #2 :smile:


But I'm sure some of the higher-end companies would stop if they were all forced to make it known to consumers. If companies had to disclose the info, consumers would be more aware of the issue and I'm sure some companies would love to say, "look, WE don't use 4d meats unlike all these OTHER companies!" Full disclosure would lead to a market for foods that do not contain these ingredients.


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## Cliffdog

Caty M said:


> With how much it costs.. it shouldn't be made with it!! It costs as much per lb as steak here, haha.


I'm with you, but in many ways raw companies are very similar to kibble companies... they tell you you're feeding great stuff and make you assume you're getting top quality ingredients so they can push the price up, and then use the cheapest ingredients possible so they get more money straight in their wallets.


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## magicre

Porphyria said:


> But I'm sure some of the higher-end companies would stop if they were all forced to make it known to consumers. If companies had to disclose the info, consumers would be more aware of the issue and I'm sure some companies would love to say, "look, WE don't use 4d meats unlike all these OTHER companies!" Full disclosure would lead to a market for foods that do not contain these ingredients.


i think the first step is getting people to believe that manufacturers are using 4D proteins.


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## Cliffdog

magicre said:


> i think the first step is getting people to believe that manufacturers are using 4D proteins.


I wish people would learn that kibble companies DON'T CARE ABOUT YOUR DOG, just the money you pay them on the regular, and so they use the cheapest crap they can possibly get by with to make more moolah. But it seems like people put their total faith and trust in these big soulless corporations.


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## lauren43

This is very interesting. Does that mean that most meat that is "not for human consumption" is from 4-D meat? Because that means I have fed Avery quite a bit of it, unintentionally. I got at least 2 30lb orders from blue ridge beef and then there was some other stuff I bought that I wasn't so sure about, but at the time I was so new to raw I fed it anyways. Lately I have been much more picky about where my meat comes from.


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## schtuffy

Porphyria said:


> But I'm sure some of the higher-end companies would stop if they were all forced to make it known to consumers. If companies had to disclose the info, consumers would be more aware of the issue and I'm sure some companies would love to say, "look, WE don't use 4d meats unlike all these OTHER companies!" Full disclosure would lead to a market for foods that do not contain these ingredients.


I'm with you, but I don't see how that day would ever come. While many more people are becoming more aware of dog nutrition and dog food ingredients, the majority of people don't even have the slightest clue. I'd even venture to say that the majority of dog owners, though they love their pets, still see them as less than humans...meant to eat only dog food...whatever is 'decent' but at a good price. I was just at Target yesterday, and the woman next to me was loading up her (nice) car with all this nice stuff she just bought for herself, along with a giant bag of Purina dog chow. I bet she thought that bag of dog chow was top quality though. I think a few weeks ago there was a sale somewhere, the huge bags of Kibbles 'n Bits were going for $15, not to mention all the coupons I always see in my Sunday paper. How can some people pass up deals like that? I was paying that much for a tiny 5lb bag of chicken Orijen.

I guess my point is, even if some companies did come out and disclose the info, most people would turn a blind eye out of ignorance, or be too brainwashed and just dismiss it all as a lie :frown:


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## magicre

Cliffdog said:


> I wish people would learn that kibble companies DON'T CARE ABOUT YOUR DOG, just the money you pay them on the regular, and so they use the cheapest crap they can possibly get by with to make more moolah. But it seems like people put their total faith and trust in these big soulless corporations.


yes. they do.

except those of us who feed raw.

my answer to your question is no. i would not feed 4D proteins to my dogs.

i might feed older lambs, which one of our farms calls dog sheep...too old to be lamb and too young to be sheep, and they get 2.00 a pound for them.

i won't feed day old calves as some of my friends have bought, only because there is too much inconsistency in the quality, from maggots on them to green calves.

i have to know what killed the cow, what downed the cow before i would consider buying those two d_s

but diseased cow? no. dead for eight hours or more? no.

i thought the whole point of feeding a prey model raw diet was to feed the best that we could, regardless of whether or not a dog's stomach acids could handle such foods....

my dogs don't live in the wild. their guts are not accustomed to eating hunted prey or downed animals.....

these are couch potatoes who are used to eating clean meat. their acids i am postulating, would be different than let's say, an animal who is raised on a diet of road kill or a 4D protein.


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## tem_sat

I will give you all a very interesting read.

See: Closer Look At A Rendering Plant

I think the key is not "4-D meat" or no "4-D meat", but instead, what percentage of 4-D must/should be disclosed. 

One more time...NO THANK YOU, I am more than happy to feed PMR that I have purchased and that I KNOW I would/could eat.


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## RawFedDogs

lauren43 said:


> This is very interesting. Does that mean that most meat that is "not for human consumption" is from 4-D meat?


No there are a lot of things that happen to meat between the time the animal is slaughtered and it reaches the grocery store cooler that makes it "not for human consumption". One thing is if its dropped on the floor it becomes not for human consumption. That is in chicken plants. I'm not sure what has to happen in beef packing plants to cause something to be not for human consumption. I imagine there are probably many things.


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## frogdog

Since, I've become more aware, educated of the pet food industry and stopped feeding kibble/premade raw...I, personally, would not feed 4D meats. Point Blank...if I can't eat it then he's not eating it...period.


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## Liz

I love feeding raw and my dogs are doing very well. They are also a bit sensitive and even meat that is a little to old leads to cannon butt. We feed alot of bone (compared to others) to maintain a consistent stool. Anything really bad will make them sick. I have tried the calves and they tend to have very loose stools on them and my male won't even go near them. I get the best meat I can afford and as much variety as I can. Some months they may eat more chicken than others because of budget restraints but they are eating so much better than kibble. Freezer burned or old meat is not a problem but off meat for us definately is.


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## Cliffdog

Thanks for all the responses guys  It's nice to hear peoples' thoughts on the matter.


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## SerenityFL

Actually, because of these answers, I think I'm going to give it a try one order and see how it goes. If we can feed wild game, where we don't KNOW what is going on with that animal, (how do we know or not if Bambi was diseased...we don't, but we feed it anyway), then why can't I feed 4D? If there was ever a question, surely I could freeze it for a long period of time to kill off whatever it was, right? Isn't that how we handle some wild game out there? 

If we can feed wild game, (with exception of bear and something else, I forget), why can't we feed 4D? So, I am going to find that butcher, I'm going to go in, I'm going to talk to them and I'm going to order. And because I don't feed beef every single night, I'm going to see if this is the way I can get my dogs some beef. Right now, beef here is hovering around $4-8 a pound. At this butcher, I can get it for 50 cents a pound. CLEARLY it is not going to be fit for human consumption but if it's a matter of, "Oops, dropped the cow on the floor, can't give that to the humans now", then I do not care. If it was a downed animal, I do not care. If it was dying or diseased, I'd want to know what it was dying from or the disease but what are the typical diseases that can make them not fit for human consumption. For all I know, the cow had the sniffles and it was branded not fit for human consumption. Does the disease always mean it's something horrific? 

If we are going to say that our canine companions are closely related to wolves...isn't this what a wolf would eat? Sneak on to the rancher's fields and take down the weakest of the bunch? Ok...so why not with our dogs?

I'll let you know how it goes.


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## Cliffdog

4-D meat is labeled as 4-D (dead, dying, diseased, disabled) according to the USDA if ever the animal in question does not fit the rigorous standards for human meat, even if they don't specifically fit the label of "dead, dying, diseased, disabled". So something as minor as the sniffles would be considered 4-D. Dropped meat, while considered "unfit for human consumption" is not considered 4-D. The designation of 4-D is placed on the animal itself before processing, so nothing "tainted" after processing is technically considered 4-D.

Hope all goes well Serenity. I've never had a problem with 4-D/unfit for human consumption meat.


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## catahoulamom

I would not feed 4D meat in the situation I am in right now. Right now I can afford to feed my dogs a pretty good variety of meats/bones/organs from the grocery store (some weeks when the money is tight they get mostly chicken), so if given the opportunity to purchase 4D meat for cheaper I would pass. However, if I was in a situation where I could not afford to feed my dogs human quality meats, I'd probably feed 4D meats before going back to kibble.


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## frogdog

Not knowing why and how the animal was labeled 4D is a major concern to me. I would rather purchase meats from the local grocery store that are for human consumption.


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## tem_sat

SerenityFL said:


> Actually, because of these answers, I think I'm going to give it a try one order and see how it goes. If we can feed wild game, where we don't KNOW what is going on with that animal, (how do we know or not if Bambi was diseased...we don't, but we feed it anyway), then why can't I feed 4D? If there was ever a question, surely I could freeze it for a long period of time to kill off whatever it was, right? Isn't that how we handle some wild game out there?
> 
> If we can feed wild game, (with exception of bear and something else, I forget), why can't we feed 4D? So, I am going to find that butcher, I'm going to go in, I'm going to talk to them and I'm going to order. And because I don't feed beef every single night, I'm going to see if this is the way I can get my dogs some beef. Right now, beef here is hovering around $4-8 a pound. At this butcher, I can get it for 50 cents a pound. CLEARLY it is not going to be fit for human consumption but if it's a matter of, "Oops, dropped the cow on the floor, can't give that to the humans now", then I do not care. If it was a downed animal, I do not care. If it was dying or diseased, I'd want to know what it was dying from or the disease but what are the typical diseases that can make them not fit for human consumption. For all I know, the cow had the sniffles and it was branded not fit for human consumption. Does the disease always mean it's something horrific?
> 
> If we are going to say that our canine companions are closely related to wolves...isn't this what a wolf would eat? Sneak on to the rancher's fields and take down the weakest of the bunch? Ok...so why not with our dogs?
> 
> I'll let you know how it goes.


To be 100% honest with you, in your case, especially considering the prices you were paying in Miami, I would do the same as you. I would make my determination based upon the explanation by the butcher.

For me, personally, my price per pound averages under 75 cents. I cannot see a reason to feed anything other than bulk meat purchases and the occasional splurge.


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## Imgliniel

To me it absolutely depends on why they were labeled 4-D. Diseased or already dead and no idea why? Heck no. Another cow kicked it on the trailer to the plant and broke it's leg and nothing else wrong with it? sure. However, getting that detailed explanation is hard unless you are buying from the farmer. For example, I have a freind that raises beef cattle to feeder age. If he has one go down I can have the cow (after he's put it down via bullet he is not a jerk and cares for his mommas) to take to the butcher and have parted out for the dogs. That I am good with


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## SerenityFL

Imgliniel said:


> To me it absolutely depends on why they were labeled 4-D. Diseased or already dead and no idea why? Heck no. Another cow kicked it on the trailer to the plant and broke it's leg and nothing else wrong with it? sure. However, getting that detailed explanation is hard unless you are buying from the farmer. For example, I have a freind that raises beef cattle to feeder age. If he has one go down I can have the cow (after he's put it down via bullet he is not a jerk and cares for his mommas) to take to the butcher and have parted out for the dogs. That I am good with


This is the situation I would have with this particular butcher. They raise their own, they slaughter their own. They've been around here in Maine for a very long time. The tech at the vet's office that I went to when I was investigating vets to bring my hoodlums to, (and she also feeds raw), is the one who told me about this butcher. I don't think she would give me information that would be harmful to my hoodlums. I did write about it here on this forum and even linked their site. I've just not gone to visit. But I will now because they are, as you said, "the farmers" who also are "the butchers". I think this has the potential to be something pretty good. 

I can't go this week..this week is insane but I will try next week.


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## PDXdogmom

I see no reason to purposely seek out 4-D meat. Why take a chance on it when our goal is to do the best we can for our dogs - whatever method that may mean to each of us.


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## magicre

SerenityFL said:


> This is the situation I would have with this particular butcher. They raise their own, they slaughter their own. They've been around here in Maine for a very long time. The tech at the vet's office that I went to when I was investigating vets to bring my hoodlums to, (and she also feeds raw), is the one who told me about this butcher. I don't think she would give me information that would be harmful to my hoodlums. I did write about it here on this forum and even linked their site. I've just not gone to visit. But I will now because they are, as you said, "the farmers" who also are "the butchers". I think this has the potential to be something pretty good.
> 
> 
> I can't go this week..this week is insane but I will try next week.


the people i know who buy 4d meat from ????the butcher.....very nice guy...and their animals are doing great. 

it's my personal prejudice that prevents me from buying from him....there is a store up the street from me who sells usda meat for humans. it is cheaper because the farmer did not pay to have it graded, so you don't know what you're getting, be it prime, choice or select. can't sell 4D to humans.

and, i don't know why, but i can't buy meat from there...i just can't.

BUT. if i were in an economic position and believe me, i've been there....that allowed me the choices of not eating or eating this non graded food, i would certainly buy the non graded food and i would find a butcher who sold me 4D meat for my dogs.

when it comes to feeding oneself and one's family, there is nothing i wouldn't do.


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## SerenityFL

PDXdogmom said:


> I see no reason to purposely seek out 4-D meat. Why take a chance on it when our goal is to do the best we can for our dogs - whatever method that may mean to each of us.


Why would you believe I'm not doing that? In my case, the BEST I can for my dogs is to be able to continue to feed them raw. At this point, going to the store, (and the closest co-op is over 6 hours away, ONE way), is becoming too much. I simply do not have the funds to afford meat that is $3-8 a pound. The ONLY thing I am able to find near a dollar a pound is chicken, on a regular basis. And that chicken can be $1.69 a pound more often than not. I have two hoodlums and 7 cats to feed raw. It is NOT cheap.

So, my alternatives are:

Go broke and then we are all homeless.
Go back to cheap kibble.
Get 4D meat.

What would you choose?


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## Scarlett_O'

SerenityFL said:


> Why would you believe I'm not doing that? In my case, the BEST I can for my dogs is to be able to continue to feed them raw. At this point, going to the store, (and the closest co-op is over 6 hours away, ONE way), is becoming too much. I simply do not have the funds to afford meat that is $3-8 a pound. The ONLY thing I am able to find near a dollar a pound is chicken, on a regular basis. And that chicken can be $1.69 a pound more often than not. I have two hoodlums and 7 cats to feed raw. It is NOT cheap.
> 
> So, my alternatives are:
> 
> Go broke and then we are all homeless.
> Go back to cheap kibble.
> Get 4D meat.
> 
> What would you choose?


I would also REALLY suggest you make some friends with local hunters!:smile: There are SOOOO many in that area.....your bound to get something!!:thumb: .....hmmmm....moose!!!!NUMMY!!:biggrin:


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## Cliffdog

SerenityFL said:


> Why would you believe I'm not doing that? In my case, the BEST I can for my dogs is to be able to continue to feed them raw. At this point, going to the store, (and the closest co-op is over 6 hours away, ONE way), is becoming too much. I simply do not have the funds to afford meat that is $3-8 a pound. The ONLY thing I am able to find near a dollar a pound is chicken, on a regular basis. And that chicken can be $1.69 a pound more often than not. I have two hoodlums and 7 cats to feed raw. It is NOT cheap.
> 
> So, my alternatives are:
> 
> Go broke and then we are all homeless.
> Go back to cheap kibble.
> Get 4D meat.
> 
> What would you choose?


Not trying to discourage you from trying 4-D but Scarlett's idea is a good'n, it'd probably help out a lot in addition to the 4-D meats. I know what type of situation you are in, you do what you can! We hunt but we go through our meat fast, a lot of our friends that hunt will have old freezerburnt meat when the season is over!


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## magicre

abi (scarlett)'s idea is a good one...and i think you should explore it....

the people i know who are feeding 4D meat say their dogs are doing great....

and i think it's because the 4D is coming from local farms not feedlots.....

isn't that what you're going to do? go to a butcher?

ask him why it's so cheap and maybe he'll tell you....that it's from cows who broke their legs or bulls who had a heart attack...i don't know...

if it's the difference between them eating and not eating raw.....and you eating and having a home and them eating raw, if i were in that position...as much as i don't like the idea...i'd be looking into it.


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## twotonelover

> Why would you believe I'm not doing that? In my case, the BEST I can for my dogs is to be able to continue to feed them raw. At this point, going to the store, (and the closest co-op is over 6 hours away, ONE way), is becoming too much. I simply do not have the funds to afford meat that is $3-8 a pound. The ONLY thing I am able to find near a dollar a pound is chicken, on a regular basis. And that chicken can be $1.69 a pound more often than not. I have two hoodlums and 7 cats to feed raw. It is NOT cheap.
> 
> So, my alternatives are:
> 
> Go broke and then we are all homeless.
> Go back to cheap kibble.
> Get 4D meat.
> 
> What would you choose?


One way I know to get good, free/cheap meat is to email a taxidermist! I googled for taxidermists in my area, then emailed them all (about 7). I only got a response from one, but he said he would be more than happy to save me moose necks and plenty of deer meat/necks, plus the occasional wild bird. So I'd give that a try as well!


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## RawFedDogs

Thats real good. Several years ago I visited several taxidermists around where with zero luck. Maybe I'll try again. :smile:


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## maplewood

I feed my guy's beef that didn't pass the USDA inpection. I make a phone call on Thurs. or Fri and meet a guy down at the grey hound track to pick it up. They eat it maybe once or twice a week, but with the price of beef it's the only way I can afford to feed them beef.


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## Cliffdog

Good to hear you've had luck at the greyhound track!! I've been thinking about calling up the track and asking if I can get meat from their supplier, the kind my granddaddy fed. My grandpa was kind of famous locally in the greyhound world so I'm hoping that even though they don't normally sell to the public I can get in mentioning I'm his grandson. :biggrin:


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## maplewood

Find the racers. Our GH track here doesn't supply anything for the guy's. I was lucky, the guy who used to sell me my kibble owns GH's and he put me in touch with the guy I buy from. Jeff picks it up by the pallet and delivers it to all dog guy's at the track. The more he can buy the cheaper we all get it


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## Cliffdog

Our local track orders in bulk from Qual-Pet and the racers buy from there. I'm trying to get a job at the track so if I can't get it direct from them maybe I can talk to the racers like you say.


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