# Bone



## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

Six months into raw, Malia ( my older corgi mix) seems to need more bone than 10% or so.

i realise that number is a guideline....

and she does eat some rich food....

is it because she's older or because she's malia? or is it the richness of the food?

i'm thinking she gets about 20% bone.....


----------



## DaneMama (Jun 27, 2008)

It's hard to say. It could be all those things combined. As long as she is doing fine I wouldn't worry about numbers and figures. Life isn't that exact. While every dog needs the same basic nutrition, each dog needs slightly different amounts of each thing to thrive.


----------



## Doc (Jan 17, 2009)

she needs home-made chicken soup ... and a raw chicken back.


----------



## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

doc, you're funny...but i'm thinking you need the chicken soup. she needs the back.

natalie...i think maybe i didn't include what i'm wondering....bone has its nutrients and if she's getting more than the guideline, can she be getting more than what she needs and can it cause problems down the line.....

i admit they don't eat a lot of chicken....they eat other richer animal parts....and i'm thinking that's why she might need more bone...she is older than bubba....maybe it's an age thing?


----------



## whiteleo (Sep 7, 2008)

Re, over thinking again! Every dog is different and some dogs will need more than others, I don't see an issue with the calcium content unless you notice it in the bloodwork you are so careful to do.

My dogs too are different from each other, one can handle less bone than the other without soft stool and the other needs more bone to keep the stool firm. I haven't noticed anything problematic from this.


----------



## GypsyJazmine (Sep 23, 2010)

Even within the 4 dogs I have of the same breed their bone needs are not all the same...It comes down to a know thy dog kind of thing.:smile:


----------



## DaneMama (Jun 27, 2008)

Re, I don't think that you have to worry about her "overdosing" on the nutrients in the bone because it's all regulated in the body.

Only fat soluble nutrients (like vitamin A) are something to be concerned about. Liver is high in vitamin A...which is why liver makes up such a small portion of the diet overall. It's a small portion but a vital one.


----------



## Jodysmom (Jan 9, 2010)

danemama08 said:


> Re, I don't think that you have to worry about her "overdosing" on the nutrients in the bone because it's all regulated in the body.
> 
> Only fat soluble nutrients (like vitamin A) are something to be concerned about. Liver is high in vitamin A...which is why liver makes up such a small portion of the diet overall. It's a small portion but a vital one.


off topic here...

How easy is it to overdose a dog on liver? I am feeding beef liver now and not necessarily measuring it everytime. Should I be real concerned with this?


----------



## DaneMama (Jun 27, 2008)

Jodysmom said:


> off topic here...
> 
> How easy is it to overdose a dog on liver? I am feeding beef liver now and not necessarily measuring it everytime. Should I be real concerned with this?


I've never measured organ meals. I just eyeball it. We feed liver maybe once every two weeks.

How often are you feeding liver? And what's a rough estimate on the amount...like the size of an egg or grapefruit?


----------



## Jodysmom (Jan 9, 2010)

I am still giving in small portions every day although I know I could feed as a meal every couple of weeks or so. She gets about 3 ounces of liver or kidney every other day.
For instance, one day 3 ounces liver, next day 3 ounces kidney and so on. She gets about 26-30 ounces of food a day.


----------



## DaneMama (Jun 27, 2008)

As long as it equals about ten percent of what you feed you should be safe. I think you'd have to feed insane amounts to see any kind of bad effect...


----------



## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

whiteleo said:


> Re, over thinking again! Every dog is different and some dogs will need more than others, I don't see an issue with the calcium content unless you notice it in the bloodwork you are so careful to do.
> 
> My dogs too are different from each other, one can handle less bone than the other without soft stool and the other needs more bone to keep the stool firm. I haven't noticed anything problematic from this.



to the mods:

we have a thanks....how come we don't have a tongue sticking out? 

i overthink things, robin, because you wouldn't be able to laugh at me if i didn't LOL.....it's the bane of my existence....my brain is on hyperdrive all the time.

feel sorry for my dogs and honey...

bone contains nutrients, acts as fibre, etc. etc...too much of a good thing just to keep stools solid....this is okay? because malia is about double the guideline...at 20%


----------



## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

Jodysmom said:


> I am still giving in small portions every day although I know I could feed as a meal every couple of weeks or so. She gets about 3 ounces of liver or kidney every other day.
> For instance, one day 3 ounces liver, next day 3 ounces kidney and so on. She gets about 26-30 ounces of food a day.


so at 30 oz, she gets 3 oz or organ per day = 21 oz per week

that's ten per cent

five per cent of that ten per cent is liver

the other five per cent of that ten per cent would be kidney

so if you're feeding one one day and one the other, you're perfect, if my math is right.


----------



## RawFedDogs (Jun 16, 2008)

whiteleo said:


> I don't see an issue with the calcium content unless you notice it in the bloodwork you are so careful to do.


Measuring calcium in the blood is an act of futility. Animals self regulate the amount of calcium in the body. If there is too much they either store it in bone or they eliminate it through the kidneys. If there is too little they draw from the bone to bring it back to right. There isn't a way through blood test to determine if you are feeding the correct amount or not. It really makes no difference. They can handle varying amounts.

If a dog has too much or too little calcium in the blood its not because of diet, its because of whatever mechanism they use to regulate it. Probably liver, but thats a guess.


----------



## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

RawFedDogs said:


> Measuring calcium in the blood is an act of futility. Animals self regulate the amount of calcium in the body. If there is too much they either store it in bone or they eliminate it through the kidneys. If there is too little they draw from the bone to bring it back to right. There isn't a way through blood test to determine if you are feeding the correct amount or not. It really makes no difference. They can handle varying amounts.
> 
> If a dog has too much or too little calcium in the blood its not because of diet, its because of whatever mechanism they use to regulate it. Probably liver, but thats a guess.


that's what makes me think about it....i'll have to look this up because that's what i do...but if a dog's kidneys are approximately the same or similar to ours, there is a filtration system....the kidneys filter out all kinds of junk, kind of like an air filter....and it can, not usually, but can get clogged....like an air filter....

hmmm...

i don't think it's a big deal....either....i was more wondering than anything else....i get my calcium from food and so do my dogs...

my concerns probably would be more geared to giving calcium supps or taking them...

edit: 

as long as the kidneys are working properly, they'll excrete the extra that they don't need...blood work can give an indication that the kidneys are healthy or blood work can indicate that something is going on ......and to look further.

i should think, that as long as the dog's kidneys are healthy, then fine...but blood work will indicate the beginnings of failure, of stones, of certain diseases that both humans and dogs get.....

i also think too much bone over a long period of time has to have some kind of effect...i just don't know what...i'm not talking about my 20% because it's not an every day thing....

but let's say a dog can't have a proper stool without getting bone with every meal....that's certainly more than 10%...over the long run....would the kidneys be able to hold up and continue their filtering and excretion healthily? just sayin'


----------



## Doc (Jan 17, 2009)

magicre said:


> that's what makes me think about it....i'll have to look this up because that's what i do...but if a dog's kidneys are approximately the same or similar to ours, there is a filtration system....the kidneys filter out all kinds of junk, kind of like an air filter....and it can, not usually, but can get clogged....like an air filter....
> 
> hmmm...
> 
> ...


huh?:redface:


----------



## eternalstudent (Jul 22, 2010)

Re, I like the way you think. You are just like me and spend the whole time over-thinking everything . 

I Have been debating with myself about getting a canine physiology book to learn exactly how the dogs gut works and how the absorption is regulated. From what there stools look like I would say that most of the bone is not absorbed, this being the case then any excess ingested is passed straight though and will not affect any other system.

In the case of humans in times when we are deficient in a specific nutrient then it's absorption is up-regulated. Overfeeding does become a problem but first you will down-regulate the efficiency of the system. I would have to look at how the calcium is absorbed and what the feedback regulation is, to know how much overfeeding of a single nutrient is a problem. 

You then get the second line of defence by way of the kidneys, which will excrete the calcium. Salts like calcium have very specific limits within any body and the regulation system is not normally pretty spot on. 

If I was to hazard a guess at the problem you would get it would be if you stopped feeding the 20 % bone then the absorption would lag behind and for a small period the dog could become calcium deficient. Having said that, they are very adaptable creatures and I can't see it happening.

But if anyone can recommend a canine physiology or pathology book, it would be greatly appreciated.


----------



## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

eternal student...i too am thinking about getting a canine physiology book...

if a dog's kidney works like ours or similarly, then i should think, as long as they are getting enough fluids, as long as their isn't an inherited condition, they should be fine....

humans get Hypercalciuria....and generally it's inherited....i would imagine that dogs would have a similar problem.

this is what merck veterinary manual says:



> Calcium Oxalate Stones:
> Calcium oxalate uroliths have been increasing in frequency in dogs. While they may develop in any breed, Miniature Schnauzers, Lhasa Apsos, Yorkshire Terriers, Bichon Frise, Shih Tzus, and Miniature Poodles may be predisposed. Most affected dogs are 2-10 yr old. Hypercalciuria leading to calcium oxalate stone formation can result from increased renal clearance of calcium due to excessive intestinal absorption of calcium (absorptive hypercalciuria), to impaired renal conservation of calcium (renal leak hypercalciuria), or to excessive skeletal mobilization of calcium (resorptive hypercalciuria).
> 
> Absorptive hypercalciuria is characterized by increased urine calcium excretion, normal serum calcium concentration, and normal or low serum parathormone concentration. Because absorptive hypercalciuria depends on dietary calcium, the amount of calcium excreted in the urine during fasting is normal or significantly reduced when compared with nonfasting levels. Renal leak hypercalciuria has been recognized in dogs less frequently than absorptive hypercalciuria. In dogs, renal leak hypercalciuria is characterized by normal serum calcium concentration, increased urine calcium excretion, and increased serum parathormone concentration. During fasting, these dogs do not show a decline in urinary calcium loss. The underlying cause of renal leak hypercalciuria in dogs is not known. Resorptive hypercalciuria is characterized by excessive filtration and excretion of calcium in urine as a result of hypercalcemia. Hypercalcemic disorders have been associated only infrequently with calcium oxalate uroliths in dogs.
> ...


i would think my concern has more to do with Absorptive hypercalciuria than anything else....dietary calcium ingestion....along with aging, may well slow kidney function....so it can be a concern....

what i don't get is what percentage of protein they are recommending....raw is approximately, what 20 - 25% at best?


----------



## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

Doc said:


> huh?:redface:


it's GOT to be five o'clock somewhere....my brain hurts....i just can't help it, doc....LOL


----------



## Doc (Jan 17, 2009)

magicre said:


> that's what makes me think about it....i'll have to look this up because that's what i do...but if a dog's kidneys are approximately the same or similar to ours, there is a filtration system....the kidneys filter out all kinds of junk, kind of like an air filter....and it can, not usually, but can get clogged....like an air filter....
> 
> hmmm...
> 
> ...


I had flashbacks of the lecture hall with some old professor droning on and on; then I broke out in a cold sweat. I'm not sure if the drinking caused the sweats or memories of school! I'm still a little light-headed just thinking about the function of kidneys and nutrient extraction. LOL


----------



## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

Doc said:


> I had flashbacks of the lecture hall with some old professor droning on and on; then I broke out in a cold sweat. I'm not sure if the drinking caused the sweats or memories of school! I'm still a little light-headed just thinking about the function of kidneys and nutrient extraction. LOL


i hear ya...i'm on my way to the bar now


----------

