# Dogue de Bordeaux food recommendation



## Jaimie46 (Jul 31, 2012)

*Hi again! You guys were so helpful with my last question months ago, thank you. I'm back with another question. I've been feeding Taste of The Wild to my 2 boxers and JR with great success. They love it and the one boxer that is overweight is slowly losing. They NEVER let me go a minute past feeding times  so this weekend I'm picking up my Dogue de Bordeaux pup and I want to start the little guy out right. I'm stuck and can't decide between TOTW puppy or Nutrisource puppy....? And if I'm correct Nutrisource doesn't have a dry grain free puppy formula? This is such a large breed and I want to do the best I can for him.*


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## murbanski (Sep 25, 2012)

Jaimie46-I have been asking everyone the same questions! I will be getting a Neapolitan Mastiff puppy and giant breeds' nutritional needs are SO different than smaller breeds. One that I really liked was Holistic Select Large and Giant Breed Puppy Food. Unfortunately it is not grain free. It scored 5 out of 5 stars on dogfoodadvisor.com. It has correct levels of Calcium and Phosphorus levels and a lower protein and fat content.


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## Jaimie46 (Jul 31, 2012)

It would be nice if someone could weigh in on this. I'm confused...I thought mastiffs needed a higher protein? Grain free is pretty important to me too.

When are you getting your pup? I get mine this Saturday. It's going to be an all day driving trip to pick him up....


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## lauren43 (Feb 6, 2011)

Take a look here:

http://dogfoodchat.com/forum/dry-ca...gh-quality-grain-free-low-recalls-kibble.html

As murbanski said they are looking for basically the same thing and a ton of helpful suggestions were made in this thread.


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## Georgiapeach (Jan 24, 2011)

From what I've read, large breed puppies shouldn't have more than 25% protein to avoid growing too fast. TOTW Pacific Stream (fish) and TOTW Sierra Mountain (lamb) fit that bill. As long as the food is all life stages, it's fine. 

My dog food provider said that a lot of kennels he services are currently high on Puppy Large Breed | Acana for their large puppies. He said the breeders like the digestibility and the slow, steady growth it provides. It is grain inclusive, but it contains steel cut oats, which are supposed to be okay.


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## monster'sdad (Jul 29, 2012)

murbanski said:


> Jaimie46-I have been asking everyone the same questions! I will be getting a Neapolitan Mastiff puppy and giant breeds' nutritional needs are SO different than smaller breeds. One that I really liked was Holistic Select Large and Giant Breed Puppy Food. Unfortunately it is not grain free. It scored 5 out of 5 stars on dogfoodadvisor.com. It has correct levels of Calcium and Phosphorus levels and a lower protein and fat content.


Who cares whether the food is grain free? Why is this important? Your NM needs nothing special except a mid range fat content food. Pick any good 25/15 ALS type plus or minus and stop worrying.

Protein does not alter growth patterns but too many calories will make a giant breed heavy, so watch the fat content.


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## Shamrockmommy (Sep 10, 2009)

Monsters dad, it's important if you have a dog who is intolerant of grain and gets cannon butt from it lol. As a result I feed my largest dog grain free and my other two are but pipsqueaks compared to her, so grain free it is... Also grains are inflammatory and will aggravate joint conditions.


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## Shamrockmommy (Sep 10, 2009)

Also if I had a large breed pup, I'd start with Fromm large breed puppy, see how he tolerates it and go from there.


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## monster'sdad (Jul 29, 2012)

Shamrockmommy said:


> Monsters dad, it's important if you have a dog who is intolerant of grain and gets cannon butt from it lol. As a result I feed my largest dog grain free and my other two are but pipsqueaks compared to her, so grain free it is... Also grains are inflammatory and will aggravate joint conditions.


The only place where grain allergies or grain intolerance exist is on the internet in chat forums or in the minds of people that can't bother to read studies. About 3 - 5% of food problems are because of grains, and food problems are 10% of allergies. So just multiply the two together and figure out the probability grains cause problems. If your dog has a problem with food there is over a 90% chance it is due to animal protein.

That is science. What you have written is essentially fiction.


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## CorgiPaws (Mar 31, 2009)

Something to keep in mind with these breeds, is that they are NOT large breed- they are giant breed, and do have specific nutritional needs. Even large breed PUPPY foods often times have inappropriate Ca levels, which is the main contributing factor to growth issues like HOD and Pano. Protein has never been a huge concern of mine, just the Ca and making sure not to overfeed. You want a Ca of no more than 1:1. 
If you're looking for grain free foods specifically that are suitable for growing GIANT breed puppies, Nutri Source GF Large Breed Adult (several from my last litter of Danes have been using this and no complaints) and California Natural GF Salmon are both acceptable. Not that many grain free foods are suitable for a giant breed puppy, so if you NEED grain free due to grain intolerances in your pack, the pickings will be slim. 

I wouldn't feed a puppy food to a giant breed puppy, ever.


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## murbanski (Sep 25, 2012)

Seriously. How old are you monster's dad? Did you ever go to kindergarten? If you can't say anything nice, don't say it at all?


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## murbanski (Sep 25, 2012)

lauren43 linked you to my thread. There is ALOT of helpful information on there as I am on the same quest for the perfect dog food for my giant breed puppy! From what I learned you should not feed your giant breed any type of puppy food. HOWEVER, the Holistic Select Large & Giant Breed puppy food has everything going for it low protein, low fat, and correct calcium and phosphorus ratios. That is the only thing I don't like about it is the grain. But some dogs do fine with grain inclusive foods. You might just have to try a few things before you find the right one.


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## Shamrockmommy (Sep 10, 2009)

monster'sdad said:


> The only place where grain allergies or grain intolerance exist is on the internet in chat forums or in the minds of people that can't bother to read studies. About 3 - 5% of food problems are because of grains, and food problems are 10% of allergies. So just multiply the two together and figure out the probability grains cause problems. If your dog has a problem with food there is over a 90% chance it is due to animal protein.
> 
> That is science. What you have written is essentially fiction.


monster'sdad, I cordially invite you to come over and scoop my back yard after my PWD gets ahold of merely one small treat containing grain. Bring a hose!


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## Shamrockmommy (Sep 10, 2009)

Also if you would 'bother to do some research' on how damaging grains are to living things you might understand why I am anti- grain (particularly wheat!) myself. 
I have psoriatic arthritis. I am only 35 years old. Since childhood I have had painful joints- it was "growing pains" then, it morphed to "you're not active enough" as a young adult and "you're overweight" as an adult now. I will add here that I had extreme difficulty getting up and down stairs, taking a walk, etc. Sitting, standing, laying on my back or side or tummy... ALL positions were painful and there was never a moments relief from pain.

Once I finally got a diagnosis for PsA, I began my path of wellness. I was started on some big, fat, biological drugs. Sure, they stopped the joint pain, but not without bringing on days of migraines and exhaustion. 

I read the book _Wheat Belly_ by Dr. William Davis and my eyes were open. I stopped eating wheat. Then grains of all kinds, even 'gluten free' products. 
In 4 days, I could walk normally. In 2 weeks I felt pretty dang good. If I "feel sorry" for myself, or wish myself "normal" once in a while and have a grainy somesuch, guess what? within hours, joint pain returns and I am reminded just how inflammatory grains are. 

My dysplastic dog (both sides severely affected) limps a whole lot more on grain inclusive foods. Grains = insulin (plus a multitude of other chemical reactions in your body) = inflammation. 
Do some research, read those studies.


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## Jace (Oct 3, 2012)

Stolen from another board, but encompasses alot of research. I saved the articles that are in here, after finding them on google

Large Breed Feeding Myths

Myth: Too much protein will make my large breed puppy grow too fast, and hurt him. 

Fact: (Taken from Relationship of Nutrition to Developmental Skeletal Disease in Young Dogs by Daniel C. Richardson & Phillip W. Toll 
It is too little protein that will actually cause skeletal problems in growing puppies. 
Unlike other species, protein excess has not been demonstrated to negatively affect calcium metabolism or skeletal development in dogs. Protein deficiency, however, has more impact on the developing skeleton. In Great Dane puppies, a protein level of 14.6% (dry matter basis) with 13% of the dietary energy derived from protein can result in significant decreases in bodyweight and plasma albumin and urea concentrations.9,10 The minimum adequate level of dietary protein depends on digestibility, amino acids, and their availability from protein sources. A growth food should contain > 22% protein (dry matter basis) of high biologic value 

Myth: I need to have a specific ratio of calcium to phosphorus or else my puppy will get a growth disorder. 

Fact: It is the overall calcium level that affects everything. Calcium excess is the culprit. (same source as above... What can I say? it was a GREAT cumulative study) 

The absolute level of calcium in the diet, rather than an imbalance in the calcium/phosphorus ratio, influences skeletal development.2 Young, giant-breed dogs fed a food containing excess calcium (3.3% dry matter basis) with either normal phosphorus(0.9% dry matter basis) or high phosphorus(3% dry matter basis, to maintain a normal calcium/phosphorus ratio) had significantly increased incidence of developmental bone disease.2 These puppies apparently were unable to protect themselves against the negative effects of chronic calcium excess.3 Further, chronic high calcium intake increased the frequency and severity of osteochondrosis. 

Myth: I need to switch my large breed puppy to an adult food at 4-6 mos of age or else he will grow too fast and get a growth disorder. 

Fact: (taken from the same source as above) Adult foods are often calorically less dense and have lower protein levels. Therefore, in order to get all that your puppy needs, you would need to feed more of the food. This causes an increase in the calcium levels, which could then result in a growth disorder. 
Often puppies are switched from growth to maintenance-type foods to avoid calcium excess and skeletal disease. However, because some maintenance foods have much lower energy density than growth foods, the puppy must consume more dry matter volume to meet its energy requirement. If the calcium levels are similar (dry matter basis) between the two foods, the puppy will actually consume more calcium when fed the maintenance food. This point is exemplified in the case of switching a 15-week-old, 15-kg male Rottweiler puppy from a growth food containing, on an as fed b asis, 4.0 kcal/g metabolizable energy and 1.35% calcium (1.5% on a dry matter basis) to a maintenance food containing the same amount of calcium but at a lower, 3.2 kcal/g energy density. The puppy would require approximately 1,600 kcal/day. In order to meet this energy need the puppy would consume approximately 400g of the growth food (containing 5.4g of calcium) vs. 500g of the maintenance food (containing approximately 6.7g of calcium). 

Myth: Large breed puppy food is just a marketing scam, and any puppy food or dog food is fine. 

Fact: Large breed puppy foods are specifically formulated for controlled growth. These foods contain the appropriate levels of calcium, in addition to the appropriate balance of minerals, fat, and protein to ensure a healthy, steady growing puppy. 


Myth: I can find out what levels of specific nutrients are in my kibble by just reading the bag. 

Fact: Don't simply rely what is on the bag. When you are researching these numbers, make sure that you are reading the MAX %, not just the minimum. If a max is unavailable to you, look on their website or email the company. 

Myth: I need to supplement with Vitamin C/Ester C because my breeder said so because it'll prevent hip dysplasia (or some similar statement). 

Fact: First of all, ANY complete, quality kibble should not need supplementing, period. Second, Vitamin C does basically...nothing. 
L-ascorbic acid (Vitamin C) is necessary for hydroxylation of proline and lysine during biosynthesis of collagen, a major component of ligaments and bones. Food devoid of Vitamin C fed to puppies for 147 to 154 days neither affected growth nor caused skeletal lesions.12 There are no known dietary requirements for Vitamin C in the dog. 

Myth: I have a medium-sized dog like a husky or a border collie, so I can feed regular puppy food. 

Fact: This is speaking more so from someone who has read the bags and compared them to the facts, then from an actual study. Medium sized and even small breed puppies can still grow too fast. They may not grow for a long enough period of time to develop some of the awful bowing or knuckling that we large/giant breed owners see, but they are not beyond getting pano or other problems. A small/medium breed puppy is not going to be harmed in any way by eating a large breed puppy food. However, a small/medium breed puppy could be just as susceptible to a growth/skeletal problem while on a regular puppy food.


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## DaViking (Sep 27, 2011)

For some eating a varied daily diet that will balance the inflammation factor is not enough, they need to stay away from *any* food that raises (negative balance) the inflammation factor. Not limited to grains, ingredients like chickpea flour and potato flour/flakes can also be a big issue in terms of inflammation. For the big majority any reasonable balance between meat, plants and oils will be sufficient enough to curb the inflammation factor contributed by some foods. Some might need to pay extra attention to the ratios though. As far as dogs go; An intolerance or a full blown allergic reaction to a grain is, all things considered, rare. An intolerance to all types of grains is extremely rare, but not impossible. Yes, among food ingredients, wheat and soy together with beef and chicken are among the top sinners.


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## Shamrockmommy (Sep 10, 2009)

DaViking said:


> For some eating a varied daily diet that will balance the inflammation factor is not enough, they need to stay away from *any* food that raises (negative balance) the inflammation factor. Not limited to grains, ingredients like chickpea flour and potato flour/flakes can also be a big issue in terms of inflammation. For the big majority any reasonable balance between meat, plants and oils will be sufficient enough to curb the inflammation factor contributed by some foods. Some might need to pay extra attention to the ratios though. As far as dogs go; An intolerance or a full blown allergic reaction to a grain is, all things considered, rare. An intolerance to all types of grains is extremely rare, but not impossible. Yes, among food ingredients, wheat and soy together with beef and chicken are among the top sinners.


I'm not sure where you're going with this. Am I just imagining it, since its rare? Gosh what a coincidence that ANY time my dog gets grains she poops like a fountain. I am a lot sensitive on this subject since not only do I hear about it with my dog, I also get it about myself. I am not a celiac but HIGHLY intolerant of wheat and other grains, but since I don't have celiac nor do I have an anaphylactic allergy to it, people seem to think its all in my head... Grumble grumble...


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## Shamrockmommy (Sep 10, 2009)

Shamrockmommy said:


> I'm not sure where you're going with this. Am I just imagining it, since its rare? Gosh what a coincidence that ANY time my dog gets grains she poops like a fountain. I am a lot sensitive on this subject since not only do I hear about it with my dog, I also get it about myself. I am not a celiac but HIGHLY intolerant of wheat and other grains, but since I don't have celiac nor do I have an anaphylactic allergy to it, people seem to think its all in my head... Grumble grumble...


Sorry I are very cwabby today, apparently lol!


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## DaViking (Sep 27, 2011)

Shamrockmommy said:


> I'm not sure where you're going with this. Am I just imagining it, since its rare? Gosh what a coincidence that ANY time my dog gets grains she poops like a fountain. I am a lot sensitive on this subject since not only do I hear about it with my dog, I also get it about myself. I am not a celiac but HIGHLY intolerant of wheat and other grains, but since I don't have celiac nor do I have an anaphylactic allergy to it, people seem to think its all in my head... Grumble grumble...


I am not going any particular way. If you read again what I said you'll see that what I wrote was pretty balanced. You obviously belong in my first sentence.
As far as intolerance and allergies are concerned; Yes it is relatively rare, even more rare to be allergic to all grains. That doesn't mean your dog is not in a minority group. Not making that judgement at all. Plus, I just added to the discussion that there are many other ingredients/foodstuff that are on the negative side of the inflammation scale than grains, some of them are found in an abundance in various grain free foods. For most, inflammation in terms of diet is a balancing act and not tied to one or a few ingredients/foods.


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## DaViking (Sep 27, 2011)

Shamrockmommy said:


> Sorry I are very cwabby today, apparently lol!


No worries :smile:


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## lauren43 (Feb 6, 2011)

Jace said:


> Stolen from another board, but encompasses alot of research. I saved the articles that are in here, after finding them on google
> 
> Large Breed Feeding Myths
> 
> ...


While I understand and agree with most of this. When looking at the bags of large breed puppy food I many times do not find the calcium levels to be in the "normal" range for a large breed puppy, am I not reading correctly? Even though I don't have a large or giant breed this topic is very interesting to me.


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## Jace (Oct 3, 2012)

I think what I glean from it is that excess calcium is 3.3%DM predicting average energy levels. What happens from this is companies "compete" for what is the best balance, when really most of the research shows the "high level" issues, and not an "exact" percentage. This is as mentioned in the one study the calories per cup (energy density) varies between food, and so using "percentages" doesn't work. Rather you would want to look at how many mg are eaten per day, and go from there. NRC has recommended levels that vary too, so I would suspect that any food that is formulated for large breed encompasses this research, and each company is correct, based on which research they are using (my opinion)
On a side note the CVMA is petitioning AAFCO to have the minimum level of CA increased in puppy, due to concerns of their not being enough.


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## DaViking (Sep 27, 2011)

Jace said:


> This is as mentioned in the one study the calories per cup (energy density) varies between food, and so using "percentages" doesn't work. Rather you would want to look at how many mg are eaten per day, and go from there.


This is a very good point. Looking at the real amounts of various nutrients is often overlooked, for every situation. Everyone is trained to look for percentages and volume. Those who own giant breeds should pay extra attention to the amounts of calcium they feed @ whatever daily weight fed. Weight per cup can vary as much as 65g.


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## monster'sdad (Jul 29, 2012)

I wish certain people would stop scaring people that ask simple questions about diet with armchair science, whether it is grains or calcium or anything else. The truth is about 3 dogs in 10,000 has a sensivity to grains and of that 3 virtually all have other sensitivities, including flea bite dermatitis and environment allergies. Dogs with these problems have bad immune systems it is not the food's fault.

Calcium is even more of a witchhunt. There is very little data on this. In fact, no scientific body has been able to set an upper limit on calcium, only a lower limit. The truth is that orthopedic problems have very little to do with the nutrient levels in a diet rather, genetics, injury as a puppy, time of neutering and weight of the puppy are much more important than whether calcium is 1%, 1.5% or 2.5%. 

All the worrying is for nothing. There is not one commercial diet on the market that comes close to having dangerous levels of calcium. Someone pointed out that the few studies have used 3.3%, but even there the studies are small and with breeds with very severe genetic predispositions. Great Danes will have problems no matter what they eat.

I think people should consider these things when posting rather than scaring people into a food they like.

There is nothing special about a large breed food other than the fact that the fat levels tend to be lower. The minor difference in calcium levels is completely irrelevant. Almost all the dogs I have known with orthopedic issues are dogs and bitches neutered before physical maturity or were overweight. Males remain very robust when they are not neutered at all.


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## CorgiPaws (Mar 31, 2009)

monster'sdad said:


> Calcium is even more of a witchhunt. There is very little data on this. In fact, no scientific body has been able to set an upper limit on calcium, only a lower limit. The truth is that orthopedic problems have very little to do with the nutrient levels in a diet rather, genetics, injury as a puppy, time of neutering and weight of the puppy are much more important than whether calcium is 1%, 1.5% or 2.5%.


HOD treatment heavily revolves around diet, so I'm going to 150% disagree with you. Surprise, surprise.


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## monster'sdad (Jul 29, 2012)

CorgiPaws said:


> HOD treatment heavily revolves around diet, so I'm going to 150% disagree with you. Surprise, surprise.


Yes weight loss, has nothing to with what you are suggesting.


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## Shamrockmommy (Sep 10, 2009)

Im not trying to scare anyone. when I post about my experiences with myself and my dogs, and then you come back basically saying I'm in the wrong, well of course I'm going to be a bit defensive.

If you would take the time to research grains and their affect on the body (and how they ruined mine) then you might get where I'm coming from. If I can save one person, even one dog from the misery I've experienced, then it's worth it. One caveat- Rice is generally ok for me/dogs as it contains the least amount of glutenous proteins within. 

Just saying!


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## monster'sdad (Jul 29, 2012)

Only Wheat, Rye & Barley have Gluten. 

Corn, rice, oats, millet, sorghum (milo) do not have any Gluten. So technically your comment that rice is low in gluten compared to other grains is wrong. The terms Corn Gluten, Rice Gluten etc are just trade terms.


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## CorgiPaws (Mar 31, 2009)

monster'sdad said:


> Yes weight loss, has nothing to with what you are suggesting.


You're wrong. I've seen Danes with HOD that are not an ounce overweight, in fact, some quite thin as most adolescent Danes tend to be, and even then treatment revolves around diet.


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## Shamrockmommy (Sep 10, 2009)

Corn contains prolamin as its sticky protein. It does affect some individuals just as the sticky protein in wheat does. 

I react to corn. Rice is the only grain that doesn't cause inflammation in me. I'm pretty messed up health wise and I deal with foot, hand and face swelling in about 20 minutes after eating wheat, barley, rye, corn, soy. 

Just saying, and now we've gone way off topic...


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