# Considering switching to raw for my sensitive stomach girl..



## kady05 (Jul 29, 2011)

My dog Piper is driving me nuts. I'm new here, but am very active on another forum and they all know about my troubles with her, but basically, she's my sensitive stomach/skin girl. I'll try to sum it up as best as I can.. I'm always looking for new opinions and am just confused right now.

Piper is the type of dog that does amazing on a food for 3-6 months, then randomly gets loose stools (which usually leads to blood in her stools) for no apparent reason. She's also the type that (generally speaking), even if I fast her and put her on a bland diet of chicken/rice, can't "fix" herself, so 9 times out of 10, has to go on Metronidazole. Once on it, she's back to 95% normal within a couple doses.

She's 20 months old now, and I think has been on 5 or 6 different foods. The ones I can remember are Natural Balance (Venison), TOTW (PS), Orijen (Adult & 6 Fish), and now Nature's Variety (Salmon). I switched her to the Orijen back in April and immediately she did AMAZING on it.. switch over was simple, and I could tell her body really tolerated it well. Thought I had finally found a food that would agree with her. Then a couple weeks ago out of the blue, loose stools again. I figured it might be a stomach bug (since I do visit the SPCA once a week to take pictures), so didn't think much of it. She had not eaten anything "weird", I know that for a fact. But within 3-4 days, it hadn't resolved and she had the trademark bits of blood in it. So, I fasted her for 24hrs. then did the chicken/rice for a week straight. After finishing, I decided to switch her to the NV Instinct since my pup, Sako has done so well on it. Also did a 5 day course of Metronidazole & put her on a probiotic again (I had taken her off of it when I started the Orijen because she was doing SO well). We finished that on Monday, and she seemed totally back to normal. But then yesterday AM, very loose again. :sigh: Now, she has since firmed up (I've been giving her slippery elm since yesterday, so it must be helping), but I'm just waiting for her to "reject" the food again, since this seems to be a trend for her.

I just can't figure her out and it drives me crazy. She otherwise acts totally normal, plays, wants to eat, drinks, etc. Anytime I've taken her to the vet for this, the fecal ALWAYS comes back negative and they put her on Metronidazole, so she has not been to the vet. If it was an immediate negative reaction to a food, it would make more sense.. but to do so well on a food then out of the blue, decide to "reject" it makes no sense to me.
She's been on the NV Instinct for maybe a week now, so I'm not sure I should switch her just yet.

She HAS eaten dehydrated raw (Sojo's) and some of the Nature's Variety medallions before with zero issues (this was when I was feeding Orijen). However, I've never gone all out and done "real" raw. I'll admit that I'm scared to take the plunge, at the risk of screwing her up even more. I've been reading here and on other sites since yesterday and my poor little brain is just overloaded LOL. I'm really not sure what to do here.. keep her on the NV Instinct and see how it goes.. or switch her to raw and see what happens. Anyone have any suggestions?


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## kady05 (Jul 29, 2011)

Oh yeah, here's a picture of the princess herself..


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## Northwoods10 (Nov 22, 2010)

Hi Kady- 

Welcome to the forum. 

I think raw would be an excellent choice for a dog having such troublesome digestive issues. The nice thing about raw is that its a single protein, its so much easier to narrow down problems. One ingredient, no messing around with different bags of food to try and figure out which ingredient isn't agreeing with her. 

I'd suggest reading up on raw, ask questions and make yourself comfortable with it. We're here to help, and I can assure you its not as scary as you'd think to get started. Once you do it, you'll realize its like second nature to watch them eat that way. 

Dane Mama & Jdatwood (Natalie & Jon) have a great website for beginners to read: 

Dedicated to proper carnivore nutrition - Prey Model Raw Feeding for Dogs & Cats

Check that out, and feel free to ask questions here!

I dont want to call raw a miracle diet, but it does have its time and place and has helped so many dogs with the same issues you describe. I encourage you to dig deeper and see about getting started. GOOD LUCK!


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## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

My dog has similar but not exactly the same problems as yours - i was spending $4-800 per month on ER visits - lethargy, puking, she has a problem with constipation rather than diarrhea.

After raw - zero visits to the vet. It's been amazing. 

We did ALL the stuff to fix her digestive system - her feeding schedule was so complicated when i left her in the care of my brother once it was four pages long. Pumpkin, green beans, stool softener, olive oil, prescribed meds, yogurt, cottage cheese, etc etc etc. Of course there is no guarantee for your poor dog with such a sensitive stomach, but it sure wouldn't hurt to try - my dog never has stomach issues now - the only problems we've had is occasional puking from eating too rich a food. But she usually eats it right back up.


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## monkeys23 (Dec 8, 2010)

I know I've said it before on the other forum, but I really think it will help Piper!

Lily was actually having the opposite problem before we switched. We actually had to go to the vet for an enema. I did do the roundabout of trying The Honest Kitchen and Stella & Chewey's frozen first, plus rmb's.... but then I was like wtf am I doing feeding her crap like alfalfa?!? She'd lost muscle and gained fat and her coat looked like crap. So I sucked it up and made the transition to pmr. After seeing the detox she went through... I don't care what I have to do to make it happen, but she is staying on pmr for life.

Jon and Natalie's site is a really great newbie guide. I'm sure they'll chime in with pointers for you. :smile:


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## kady05 (Jul 29, 2011)

Northwoods10 said:


> Hi Kady-
> 
> Welcome to the forum.
> 
> ...


Thank you. I was actually on that site yesterday, it was very helpful. 



xellil said:


> My dog has similar but not exactly the same problems as yours - i was spending $4-800 per month on ER visits - lethargy, puking, she has a problem with constipation rather than diarrhea.
> 
> After raw - zero visits to the vet. It's been amazing.
> 
> We did ALL the stuff to fix her digestive system - her feeding schedule was so complicated when i left her in the care of my brother once it was four pages long. Pumpkin, green beans, stool softener, olive oil, prescribed meds, yogurt, cottage cheese, etc etc etc. Of course there is no guarantee for your poor dog with such a sensitive stomach, but it sure wouldn't hurt to try - my dog never has stomach issues now - the only problems we've had is occasional puking from eating too rich a food. But she usually eats it right back up.


Oh my, your girl sounds a lot worse than Piper has ever been! We've (luckily) never been to the ER vet over this, but there has definitely been quite a bit of money spent on vet visits just to get the Metronidazole!



monkeys23 said:


> I know I've said it before on the other forum, but I really think it will help Piper!
> 
> Lily was actually having the opposite problem before we switched. We actually had to go to the vet for an enema. I did do the roundabout of trying The Honest Kitchen and Stella & Chewey's frozen first, plus rmb's.... but then I was like wtf am I doing feeding her crap like alfalfa?!? She'd lost muscle and gained fat and her coat looked like crap. So I sucked it up and made the transition to pmr. After seeing the detox she went through... I don't care what I have to do to make it happen, but she is staying on pmr for life.
> 
> Jon and Natalie's site is a really great newbie guide. I'm sure they'll chime in with pointers for you. :smile:


LOL I saw you were a member here and was like "she's going to think I'm a nut posting about this on so many forums!"  But I like varying opinions. 


I think my biggest concern is knowing what exactly to feed, how much, all that fun stuff. Like if I had someone say "Feed her this, this much of it, for this long" I'd be less paranoid :redface:. It seems like the general consensus is to start with chicken backs for a week or so? And give 2-3% of their body weight? She's a little skinny right now from all of these issues she's been having, would like to put a few pounds on her.

Has anyone here heard of Sedine Contreras? She runs this site, _* * * Unauthorized Ad Removed by Moderator * * * RFD_ as well as the Dog Food Project site. It was suggested to me by quite a few people to contact her in regards to Piper. I don't mind spending the money on a program with her, but her wait time is 3-4wks.


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## swolek (Mar 31, 2011)

Sophie had serious food issues before switching to PMR as well. She used to vomit all the time...sometimes twice a week. Her stools were almost always loose (and soft on "good" days) and she got diarrhea at least once a month. Her food allergies/sensitivities limited the foods I could feed but I finally found one that she did OK on. Now she was only vomiting a couple times a month! I thought that was good. Sure, she had anal gland problems (one even ruptured and became infected, requiring a lot of medical care) but some dogs are just predisposed to those...right?

Now I'm upset that I didn't switch to PMR sooner. She doesn't vomit any more, her stools are small and hard, she hasn't had diarrhea since February (right before switching) and only got loose stool when I gave her something way too rich and fatty (a huge turkey tail), she hasn't had ANY anal gland problems in months, and she looks awesome (soft, shiny coat, great muscle mass, improved gait). She's just so much happier.

She actually did fine on Stella and Chewy's (pre-made raw) but it didn't offer the dental benefits and was way too expensive to continue feeding. I also noticed that her eye goopies went away the moment I switched her off them. Interestingly, they came back when she got a few as a treat a week ago.


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

hi. i think you will find raw to be the perfect answer....

i no longer believe that dogs have sensitive stomachs....what i do believe is kibble causes the digestive system to become maladaptive.....and whilst the brain keeps trying to deal with kibble, it simply cannot sustain that adaptation for long....

there are some dogs for whom raw will be the answer you're looking for...and it will right the wrong that kibble has done..

start with chicken backs or a boney chicken...don't overfeed...and go slowly, ask lots of questions....and you will have a great love affair with crunching noises and a healthy dog.


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## CorgiPaws (Mar 31, 2009)

Oh I'm SO glad that you've joined here, and I can't WAIT for your post in two months telling us how awesome she is doing on raw. :wink:
I think that a PMR diet will work wonders for your girl. Your story is like many of the other stories we hear here, where any and every kibble just doesn't seem to work, dog is uncomfortable, owner is upset and at wits end. We can help!! PMR can help!

That www.preymodelraw.com guide is a wonderful, wonderful resource, and was actually written by two members of this forum!! 
We can get you started on PMR easy-peasy and answer all the questions you might have and guide you through the whole process. It will seem like a lot of work at first- perhaps even overwhelming. It can be a bumpy road, but once you learn and tweak a few basic things, you will really wonder why you hadn't done it sooner, and it will become second nature. 

The first two weeks, feed NOTHING but bone in chicken. Backs are great to start with, quarters are great, too. At first, since you have a sensitive dog, you can take the skin and fat off and any lingering organs stuck to the cut of meat. You will work your dog up to eating roughly 2-3% of their IDEAL weight. The first two days, I feed only half that amount. Some dogs transition better with several smaller meals at first. That's all you need to know to start. Read through this forum, and preymodelraw.com but don't overwhelm yourself with steps that are months down the road. 

And of course, we are all here for questions or any help. Be prepared though, a lot of dogs lose weight during transition.


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## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

monkeys23 said:


> I know I've said it before on the other forum, but I really think it will help Piper!
> 
> Lily was actually having the opposite problem before we switched. We actually had to go to the vet for an enema.


ah, the good old days! Enemas, getting those water injections where she looks like a two-humped camel, watching her try to poo, try try try and get nowhere, eventually using to much garbage to get rid of her constipation that THAT stuff makes her sick, back to the vet.... So glad those good old days are over.

That was, actually, why I ended up here. i kept having arguments with the ER vet about Science Diet, but I felt pretty foolish telling him i wasn't going to feed her that stuff while I was at the ER, again, for digestive issues.


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## kady05 (Jul 29, 2011)

swolek said:


> Sophie had serious food issues before switching to PMR as well. She used to vomit all the time...sometimes twice a week. Her stools were almost always loose (and soft on "good" days) and she got diarrhea at least once a month. Her food allergies/sensitivities limited the foods I could feed but I finally found one that she did OK on. Now she was only vomiting a couple times a month! I thought that was good. Sure, she had anal gland problems (one even ruptured and became infected, requiring a lot of medical care) but some dogs are just predisposed to those...right?
> 
> Now I'm upset that I didn't switch to PMR sooner. She doesn't vomit any more, her stools are small and hard, she hasn't had diarrhea since February (right before switching) and only got loose stool when I gave her something way too rich and fatty (a huge turkey tail), she hasn't had ANY anal gland problems in months, and she looks awesome (soft, shiny coat, great muscle mass, improved gait). She's just so much happier.
> 
> She actually did fine on Stella and Chewy's (pre-made raw) but it didn't offer the dental benefits and was way too expensive to continue feeding. I also noticed that her eye goopies went away the moment I switched her off them. Interestingly, they came back when she got a few as a treat a week ago.


I'm hoping my story ends like yours if I decide to start her on raw!



magicre said:


> hi. i think you will find raw to be the perfect answer....
> 
> i no longer believe that dogs have sensitive stomachs....what i do believe is kibble causes the digestive system to become maladaptive.....and whilst the brain keeps trying to deal with kibble, it simply cannot sustain that adaptation for long....
> 
> ...


That makes sense actually. Thank you 



PuppyPaws said:


> Oh I'm SO glad that you've joined here, and I can't WAIT for your post in two months telling us how awesome she is doing on raw. :wink:
> I think that a PMR diet will work wonders for your girl. Your story is like many of the other stories we hear here, where any and every kibble just doesn't seem to work, dog is uncomfortable, owner is upset and at wits end. We can help!! PMR can help!
> 
> That preymodelraw.com guide is a wonderful, wonderful resource, and was actually written by two members of this forum!!
> ...


It definitely is a little overwhelming, but I'm starting to chill out a bit about the idea LOL. Told the fiance today that we probably need to buy a chest freezer if I do this.. luckily, Piper is "his" girl and he's very supportive of everything I do with the dogs! 

So basically, I just start with the chicken backs & the quarters for the first couple weeks? I'm guessing I would give quarters one day, then backs the next (or every 2 days, whatever)? My friend that feeds raw told me she wasn't that impressed with the back, said they had too much bone and not enough meat, she started with all quarters I guess. I found a local supplier that sells a 40lb. case of quarters for $28, and a 40lb. case of backs for $24. 

Oh and sorry it seems like it's taking forever for me to reply! I keep getting a message saying a mod. has to approve my posts before they are public. This one posted right away, go figure. But I did reply to the others too, promise


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## CorgiPaws (Mar 31, 2009)

kady05 said:


> So basically, I just start with the chicken backs & the quarters for the first couple weeks? I'm guessing I would give quarters one day, then backs the next (or every 2 days, whatever)? My friend that feeds raw told me she wasn't that impressed with the back, said they had too much bone and not enough meat, she started with all quarters I guess.


Sure! That sounds great. 
The great thing about raw is that a lot of exacts just don't matter. If it has chicken, and it has bone: use it! 
Backs are recommended a lot for transitioning because heavy bone content can help prevent loose stools. I personally feel like backs have a lot of fat and skin on them, and once you trim it off, they're tiny, and not a very good deal. I have transitioned all of mine, except the last two puppies, on quarters and they've done great. Whatever bone-in chicken you have readily available that you want to use is fine.


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## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

I started with quarters, but since I have a constipated dog I need more meat. I think you can do whatever works - if your dog has loose stools, you might find you need the bonier backs.


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## kady05 (Jul 29, 2011)

PuppyPaws said:


> Sure! That sounds great.
> The great thing about raw is that a lot of exacts just don't matter. If it has chicken, and it has bone: use it!
> Backs are recommended a lot for transitioning because heavy bone content can help prevent loose stools. I personally feel like backs have a lot of fat and skin on them, and once you trim it off, they're tiny, and not a very good deal. I have transitioned all of mine, except the last two puppies, on quarters and they've done great. Whatever bone-in chicken you have readily available that you want to use is fine.


Well that seems easy enough!


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

how much does piper weigh?

take her weight, multiply by 16 and then multiply by .02 which will tell you a guideline of what to feed.

and then i would halve that amount and start with that.

i would start with backs and if she does well, i'd alternate between backs and quarters....it depends on the dog. they are all unique. what we're giving you are guidelines but you are the one standing there with piper.

get a cutting board, a good pair of scissors, eventually a carving knife, a cleaver and a mallet. you're going to love this.

you've found a supplier.....yay...

i would start out with two meals a day to start until she stabilises and because her gut is so messed up right now....i would recommend going very slowly...taking the fat and skin off...as linsey has suggested...

feeding half the amount called for just gives her a chance to get her stomach juices flowing for raw...and gives her a chance to adapt, from her gums, mouth, teeth, jaw, neck.....

at first, don't panic if she looks at you like you have two heads...try not to let her see you nervous....i resorted to wine and martinis...the first week...

they can feel your tension.....so try to be calm.

and please let us know. there is nothing finer than a dog getting well.


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## kady05 (Jul 29, 2011)

magicre said:


> how much does piper weigh?
> 
> take her weight, multiply by 16 and then multiply by .02 which will tell you a guideline of what to feed.
> 
> ...


I would say she's at around 45lbs. currently (haven't weighed her in a little while). But I would like to put a few more pounds on her, although I can understand that I shouldn't start out with the full amount that she'll eventually eat, to avoid even more stomach issues. Don't you just multiply their weight by .02 or .03 to get how much to feed per day? So at 45lbs., she'd get .9lbs. of food a day (at 2%), right?

I think I might just buy some backs & quarters to start with, and alternate (depending on how she reacts) if I can. I'm hoping she takes to eating it just fine.. she is VERY food motivated and does tend to "gulp" so I will definitely have to watch her closely. I think she'd eat mulch if I threw it in her food bowl


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## CorgiPaws (Mar 31, 2009)

Alternating the cut sounds like a great idea. A perfect way to start. 
So, 45 but could put on a few? 
So, a good amount would be roughly 1.25lb to get her to 50lbs, and maintain there. Give or take some, all dogs metabolize at a different rate, and some require more or less food. 
For the first day or two, I'd feed .5-.75lbs. it will seem like nothing, but it's OK! You will work her up to the proper amount within a couple days. I would fast for one day before starting.


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## Scarlett_O' (May 19, 2011)

I would DEFINITELY suggest switching!! She sounds like the PERFECT candidate!:happy:

I am SOOO glad that I swapped my babies over! Rhett was affectionately known as Puppy Cannon because of his tummy issues....after his first PMR meal there was no more issues at all!!(well other then the one time that he got into the in-law's pup's krapple...but that wasnt *his* food's fault!:wink




PuppyPaws said:


> Alternating the cut sounds like a great idea. A perfect way to start.
> So, 45 but could put on a few?
> So, a good amount would be roughly 1.25lb to get her to 50lbs, and maintain there. Give or take some, all dogs metabolize at a different rate, and some require more or less food.
> For the first day or two, I'd feed .5-.75lbs. it will seem like nothing, but it's OK! You will work her up to the proper amount within a couple days. I would fast for one day before starting.


TOTALLY agree!!

Oh and also I found feeding frozen helped my gulper(Brody) a TON!! He will still gulp if I give him anything that gives him the chance to, but my Mum fed my Dad's Frenchie frozen for the past 2 weeks and now he can have thawed without gulping!:happy:


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## minnieme (Jul 6, 2011)

Boy did you find a great place for beginning! I belonged to another forum where I found the people a little rude and not nearly as helpful. This is a great place....I'm still a newbie but everyone is so welcoming and kind and helpful.  It's great! My girl has had a hell of a ride in the past 2 months we've had her and I think all the diet switches (plus parasites) have caused her to have a sensitive stomach...which I think will resolve itself. Just do as everyone here says and go SLOW! Don't rush it at all -- while it's exciting to think of your dog having a wide variety of proteins, some more sensitive ones (mine included) truly need that extra time. 

Quarters and backs are excellent choices and I do agree with backs not necessarily being a stellar deal, but in the beginning - if you can find 'em for cheap, I think they're a good tool to have in your belt. Day of loose stool? A back has always helped my girl...but it was a matter of finding them. It took calling many butchers to finally find a place that sells them -- for cheap too. But on the other hand, Minnie is also a big fan of quarters too. 

I think you'll be surprised at how HAPPY your dog seems before, during, and after eating. The transformation in mine was amazing. So while we haven't seen the immediate health benefits (due to her sensitive tummy and my goofs), we know they are coming and her overall happiness and well-being tells me wholeheartedly to proceed. 

Don't look back. You'll love it. Moreover, your DOG will love it! And you have a great bunch here willing to help you through every step of the way!

Best,

Jill and Minnie the Great Dane


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## kady05 (Jul 29, 2011)

PuppyPaws said:


> Alternating the cut sounds like a great idea. A perfect way to start.
> So, 45 but could put on a few?
> So, a good amount would be roughly 1.25lb to get her to 50lbs, and maintain there. Give or take some, all dogs metabolize at a different rate, and some require more or less food.
> For the first day or two, I'd feed .5-.75lbs. it will seem like nothing, but it's OK! You will work her up to the proper amount within a couple days. I would fast for one day before starting.


Correct, that's the amount I got too when I did 3% instead of 2%. Definitely think starting with less is a good idea. Oh she's going to hate me for fasting her LOL. But it makes sense to do so she'll have to deal.



Scarlett_O' said:


> I would DEFINITELY suggest switching!! She sounds like the PERFECT candidate!:happy:
> 
> I am SOOO glad that I swapped my babies over! Rhett was affectionately known as Puppy Cannon because of his tummy issues....after his first PMR meal there was no more issues at all!!(well other then the one time that he got into the in-law's pup's krapple...but that wasnt *his* food's fault!:wink
> 
> ...


Oh my..puppy canon, poor guy! I have also read that some people feed their gulpers frozen, or at least not totally thawed out. Might go that route too.. better safe than sorry with her.



minnieme said:


> Boy did you find a great place for beginning! I belonged to another forum where I found the people a little rude and not nearly as helpful. This is a great place....I'm still a newbie but everyone is so welcoming and kind and helpful.  It's great! My girl has had a hell of a ride in the past 2 months we've had her and I think all the diet switches (plus parasites) have caused her to have a sensitive stomach...which I think will resolve itself. Just do as everyone here says and go SLOW! Don't rush it at all -- while it's exciting to think of your dog having a wide variety of proteins, some more sensitive ones (mine included) truly need that extra time.
> 
> Quarters and backs are excellent choices and I do agree with backs not necessarily being a stellar deal, but in the beginning - if you can find 'em for cheap, I think they're a good tool to have in your belt. Day of loose stool? A back has always helped my girl...but it was a matter of finding them. It took calling many butchers to finally find a place that sells them -- for cheap too. But on the other hand, Minnie is also a big fan of quarters too.
> 
> ...


I can't believe how nice everyone is here! I'm on a Pit Bull specific forum that I LOVE, but it's a tough crowd  Luckily, I've been there for awhile so I don't get treated crappy.. but I've definitely joined a few forums and have been treated like a total newb and no one wanted to help me. I already like it here :smile:

Oh, here are a couple pictures of Miss Piper.. for anyone interested (I always like to be able to see the dog I'm talking about):










This is when she was in her best (IMO) condition on the Orijen.. we were testing the strength of that collar for a collar maker (no, I don't usually make my dogs lunge at the end of the leash :wink


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## minnieme (Jul 6, 2011)

Very pretty girl AND pretty collar! That color would be great on Minnie!!! Does that collar maker have a website?

Seriously, beautiful dog....those eyes made me melt!


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## kady05 (Jul 29, 2011)

minnieme said:


> Very pretty girl AND pretty collar! That color would be great on Minnie!!! Does that collar maker have a website?
> 
> Seriously, beautiful dog....those eyes made me melt!


Thank you  

Yes she does! Ella's Lead - Home All of my dogs leather collars come from her, she's awesome. If you go to Products, then Vegan collars, you'll see my 2 of my dogs on that page (Piper & Wilson). That material is AWESOME.


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## Scarlett_O' (May 19, 2011)

Piper is BEAUTIFUL...and of course an Ella's collar doesnt hurt the picture EVER!LOL

(And yes, my poor baby...he was 14 weeks old when I swapped him over, between when he was weaned at his breeder's to when I got him he had tried 6 different foods and NONE of them agreed with him, and his stool/blood samples had come back totally clear. So when I swapped him over it was kind of a last resort...and MAN am I glad I did!!:happy: :thumb: I have NEVER seen more beautiful fur or skin with clearer eyes and whiter teeth in my life then I have on PMRaw fed dogs!!:happy


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## CorgiPaws (Mar 31, 2009)

Beautiful dog, and I totally dig the collar. I'm glad you like it here already! I think it's a pretty darn fantastic place, too!


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## Northwoods10 (Nov 22, 2010)

Piper. WOW GIRL. You are stunning!!! 

My best advice is to go slllooooooooowwwwwwwwww. Slow & steady wins the race. Don't feel the need to rush things, don't worry about her being on chicken and chicken only for a couple weeks. The transition period is the time to see how she handles raw, what proteins she does best with and really see her adapt to a new way of feeding. Absolutely no need to rush things. 

She looks like a very muscular girl. Does she seem to have a high metabolism?? My Remi (german shorthaired pointer) is very go-go-go and his metabolism is super high. He requires about 2 lbs per day. And he's barely 50 lbs. 

I know that you will love raw once you get started, and its obvious that Piper will love it too!! :smile:


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## kady05 (Jul 29, 2011)

Scarlett_O' said:


> Piper is BEAUTIFUL...and of course an Ella's collar doesnt hurt the picture EVER!LOL
> 
> (And yes, my poor baby...he was 14 weeks old when I swapped him over, between when he was weaned at his breeder's to when I got him he had tried 6 different foods and NONE of them agreed with him, and his stool/blood samples had come back totally clear. So when I swapped him over it was kind of a last resort...and MAN am I glad I did!!:happy: :thumb: I have NEVER seen more beautiful fur or skin with clearer eyes and whiter teeth in my life then I have on PMRaw fed dogs!!:happy


I have a serious collar problem LOL.. I get all of mine from Ella's Lead or Collar Mania.



PuppyPaws said:


> Beautiful dog, and I totally dig the collar. I'm glad you like it here already! I think it's a pretty darn fantastic place, too!


Thank you 



Northwoods10 said:


> Piper. WOW GIRL. You are stunning!!!
> 
> My best advice is to go slllooooooooowwwwwwwwww. Slow & steady wins the race. Don't feel the need to rush things, don't worry about her being on chicken and chicken only for a couple weeks. The transition period is the time to see how she handles raw, what proteins she does best with and really see her adapt to a new way of feeding. Absolutely no need to rush things.
> 
> ...


You know, I would say her metabolism is a bit high. She isn't near as "thrifty" as Wilson (my male, who is a little older than her, and is around 55-57lbs.) is. He gets 2 level cups of Orijen a day and maintains just fine on that, she's always required more food than him. She is ALL muscle.. not an ounce of fat on her (which is why she lost so quickly when I had to do chicken/rice for an entire week). I guess I will learn how much she'll need once I start this.


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## Scarlett_O' (May 19, 2011)

kady05 said:


> I have a serious collar problem LOL.. I get all of mine from Ella's Lead or Collar Mania.


As do I!:happy:

I have gotten all 3 of my boys, along with both my family's dogs and my Mum's upcoming puppy CM collars!!:biggrin: There is no way that I WONT be begging my mum and sister for CM/EL gift cards for xmas!LOL


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## CorgiPaws (Mar 31, 2009)

Scarlett_O' said:


> As do I!:happy:
> 
> I have gotten all 3 of my boys, along with both my family's dogs and my Mum's upcoming puppy CM collars!!:biggrin: There is no way that I WONT be begging my mum and sister for CM/EL gift cards for xmas!LOL


I, too, have a "thing" for collars! The Hound Haberdashery seems to be the object of my obsession. LOL


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## Scarlett_O' (May 19, 2011)

PuppyPaws said:


> I, too, have a "thing" for collars! The Hound Haberdashery seems to be the object of my obsession. LOL


WOW those are BEAU-TI-FUL!!! I hope to some day make as purdy collars as those!! (That being said, now that I have my sewing pins I probably should get on that collar for Brody's sister!:wink


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## CorgiPaws (Mar 31, 2009)

Scarlett_O' said:


> WOW those are BEAU-TI-FUL!!! I hope to some day make as purdy collars as those!! (That being said, now that I have my sewing pins I probably should get on that collar for Brody's sister!:wink


The lady that makes them is the nicest ever, too!


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## Northwoods10 (Nov 22, 2010)

Oh goodness don't get me started looking at collars. Ellas lead, collar mania, dublin dog collars........the list goes on. DH would kill me if he knew how much I spent on collars.


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## Liz (Sep 27, 2010)

So glad youa re here. It is fun to have someone just starting again. Your girl actually might jsut be able to tolerate kibble for so long before the inflammation in her gut becomes unmanageable. You would not regret going to raw. I kick myself for not doing it sooner. It is great you have a supplier - I still used backs after over a year because when my guys get a rich meat like heart need bone. Anyway keep us posted and I would love to hear how you are doing. Your girl is lovely - she is a beautiful color.


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## Scarlett_O' (May 19, 2011)

PuppyPaws said:


> The lady that makes them is the nicest ever, too!


See and that is why Im getting a girly next....all of the ones that I was REALLY drawn too where girly!LOL


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## DaneMama (Jun 27, 2008)

I just wanted to jump in and say hello and WELCOME! I'm glad you've joined up here on DFC....you've gotten some excellent advice, but don't hesitate to ask any and all questions. We are always happy to help, even if you have a multitude of questions! 

Piper is one gorgeous gal :thumb:


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## kady05 (Jul 29, 2011)

Thanks everyone  I will definitely keep everyone posted on her progress. I have to call this supplier today to talk to her.. right now, I have no room to store 40lbs. of food, so I'm wondering if I can just get a smaller amount til I decide if she's doing well on it, then I can invest in a freezer. 

Here's a question.. how do you guys give supplements? Right now, Piper gets fish oil, vitamin E (3x a week), a probiotic, and ACV. I know many say that on raw you don't "need" supplements, and I wouldn't mind trying her off the fish oil & E, but I give the ACV for UTI health (as well as others) since she also has incontinence issues. Any suggestions for that?


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## Scarlett_O' (May 19, 2011)

kady05 said:


> Thanks everyone  I will definitely keep everyone posted on her progress. I have to call this supplier today to talk to her.. right now, I have no room to store 40lbs. of food, so I'm wondering if I can just get a smaller amount til I decide if she's doing well on it, then I can invest in a freezer.
> 
> Here's a question.. how do you guys give supplements? Right now, Piper gets fish oil, vitamin E (3x a week), a probiotic, and ACV. I know many say that on raw you don't "need" supplements, and I wouldn't mind trying her off the fish oil & E, but I give the ACV for UTI health (as well as others) since she also has incontinence issues. Any suggestions for that?


Ive given ACV with their tripe meals(once they had been on PMR for a while) along with Brody's allergy meds! The Tripe tends to cover over ANY smell!!LOL :laugh:

and as for the buying smaller....Say your feeding for a 50lbs dog, that means for the 2-3% ratio your going to feed between 1lbs and 1.5lbs, well most of the time it takes a dog at least a couple weeks to start showing the wonders of raw feeding, if not longer. So say 2 weeks, so at 1lbs/day for 2 weeks you are talking 14 lbs, for 1.5lbs/day for 2 weeks you are talking 21lbs...so for a whole month you are going to probably feed some where between 28 and 45lbs(give or take!:smile

So sure...you could start out with a small amount, I did whole chickens for the first weeks, so I just bought the largest one I could find(5-6.5lbs) and then hacked them up, freezing what ever organs/skin/meat I didnt need at the time! Then once I knew that PMR was how they where going to be fed we got a $40 freezer off of craigslist!:biggrin:


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## Liz (Sep 27, 2010)

Likw Scarlett said if you don't have a freezer I would go with a couple of whole chickens and just cut them up or a bag of chicken quarters (leg/thigh). As for supplements mine get ACV in their water, they get oil with their food.


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## kady05 (Jul 29, 2011)

Scarlett_O' said:


> Ive given ACV with their tripe meals(once they had been on PMR for a while) along with Brody's allergy meds! The Tripe tends to cover over ANY smell!!LOL :laugh:
> 
> and as for the buying smaller....Say your feeding for a 50lbs dog, that means for the 2-3% ratio your going to feed between 1lbs and 1.5lbs, well most of the time it takes a dog at least a couple weeks to start showing the wonders of raw feeding, if not longer. So say 2 weeks, so at 1lbs/day for 2 weeks you are talking 14 lbs, for 1.5lbs/day for 2 weeks you are talking 21lbs...so for a whole month you are going to probably feed some where between 28 and 45lbs(give or take!:smile
> 
> So sure...you could start out with a small amount, I did whole chickens for the first weeks, so I just bought the largest one I could find(5-6.5lbs) and then hacked them up, freezing what ever organs/skin/meat I didnt need at the time! Then once I knew that PMR was how they where going to be fed we got a $40 freezer off of craigslist!:biggrin:


Yup I'll be feeding her around 1.3lbs. daily (once we build up, I won't start with that much).. so I'm thinking maybe get 20lbs. at a time.. I think I could store that in my current freezer. Or I might just buy a darn chest freezer now LOL.

Oh another thing.. we go out of town sometimes for dog shows and my parents watch the dogs. Would doing a dehydrated raw while we're gone be a bad thing? I'm just not sure my parents will want to do raw, but I know the dehydrated raw is easy to feed.


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## Scarlett_O' (May 19, 2011)

kady05 said:


> Yup I'll be feeding her around 1.3lbs. daily (once we build up, I won't start with that much).. so I'm thinking maybe get 20lbs. at a time.. I think I could store that in my current freezer. Or I might just buy a darn chest freezer now LOL.
> 
> Oh another thing.. we go out of town sometimes for dog shows and my parents watch the dogs. Would doing a dehydrated raw while we're gone be a bad thing? I'm just not sure my parents will want to do raw, but I know the dehydrated raw is easy to feed.


If your parents are watching the dog(s) who are on raw I would think it would be easiest for them, and the dog(stool wise mostly) to just keep up with what you are feeding...or you take the dog with you if you can!:smile: I know this morning, I just took 20 min out of my day, tore into a turkey and chicken with my shears and now have 5 "grocery bags" with 3 different baggies in them in the freezer, I will, every morning, now pull out a grocery bag, then there is a pre-measured baggie in there for each of my boys(the kitty gets hers in a tub.) That is how I plan on doing it when we travel, freezing hard and throwing it in a cooler with ice! And that is how my Mum feeds...makes it easy for her to call who ever is at the house and say, "Hey pull the baggie out of the freezer with Hubber's name/the day on it and give it to him!":wink: :smile:

And remember, nothing is written in stone....you *think* that you will be feeding her in 1.3lbs/day...but she could end up needing more of less!:tongue1: :wink:
(I know for my Leo, he is only 50lbs...but I HAVE to feed him 3.5% at least 5 days a week or he gets lethargic and to the point where I dont like his weight!)


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## monkeys23 (Dec 8, 2010)

Yay pretty Piper! Lol, I have a collar problem too. I love how tough Lily's "For Ella" collar is. Scout just got a pretty polka dot CM collar... oops. 

I did quarters with the girls, but I added boneless breasts the first week for Lily. We were having constipation issues on kibble so I suppose that isn't surprising. She gained back to her normal weight and has held there steady.
Scout I did half and half with for a while with a quarter in the morning and kibble at night, then I pulled my head out and actually transitioned her... much happier tummy now!

My mom is a champ, she totally feeds them raw for me. I make sure everything she'll need is prepacked in ziplock baggies and labeled and I also leave an instruction sheet for her to refer too. I think she had a lot of fun with it last time because I gave her more flexibility, lol. They eat on their tie-out's at my mom's and their crates at my crappy apt.


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## tem_sat (Jun 20, 2010)

minnieme said:


> ...and I do agree with backs not necessarily being a stellar deal, but in the beginning - if you can find 'em for cheap, I think they're a good tool to have in your belt. Day of loose stool? A back has always helped my girl...but it was a matter of finding them. It took calling many butchers to finally find a place that sells them -- for cheap too.


If you have a Whole Foods in your area, call them and ask to speak to the Meat Department. Ask if you can order a case of chicken backs. Where I live, a case = 10 pounds and also you should get a discount of 10 cents per pound. I believe it should come out to about 89 to 99 cents per pound, per case. The chicken backs from Whole Foods are big and meaty.


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## kady05 (Jul 29, 2011)

tem_sat said:


> If you have a Whole Foods in your area, call them and ask to speak to the Meat Department. Ask if you can order a case of chicken backs. Where I live, a case = 10 pounds and also you should get a discount of 10 cents per pound. I believe it should come out to about 89 to 99 cents per pound, per case. The chicken backs from Whole Foods are big and meaty.


We don't have a Whole Foods here yet.. apparently one is coming but not til 2013. That'd be nice to be able to get a 10lb. case though, just to start with! I did call the local supplier today and left her a message, so we'll see what she says


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

i wouldn't recommend supplements the first few weeks at least, on raw. let the body get used to a whole different way of eating....but that's me.

if there is a problem, you won't have to wonder what it is...and if there isn't, it won't take long before you add them back in.

you have more than just chicken to see how they fare....so as a precaution, i'd stop the supps.


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## Scarlett_O' (May 19, 2011)

magicre said:


> i wouldn't recommend supplements the first few weeks at least, on raw. let the body get used to a whole different way of eating....but that's me.
> 
> if there is a problem, you won't have to wonder what it is...and if there isn't, it won't take long before you add them back in.
> 
> you have more than just chicken to see how they fare....so as a precaution, i'd stop the supps.


TOTALLY agree!! 

I know that my Mum did with her Frenchie who got a little bit of a ton of stuff....even 2 weeks latter all he has to have given to him is stuff for his seasonal allergies...nothing else! (But I totally understand the ACV being needed, but would suggest just pausing it's use till she is use to the new feeding regime!:smile


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## kady05 (Jul 29, 2011)

Hmm, okay. I don't have a problem holding off on them for awhile. She probably doesn't *need* them anyway (other than the ACV, I do like that for all of its benefits).. they just make me feel better


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## Liz (Sep 27, 2010)

Give it a month at least. You will probably such a good changein her you won't want to give her anything else. Remember the quality of her feed is going to skyrocket!


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## kady05 (Jul 29, 2011)

Liz said:


> Give it a month at least. You will probably such a good changein her you won't want to give her anything else. Remember the quality of her feed is going to skyrocket!


I certainly hope it goes that well!


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## Debo & Jinny (Apr 26, 2011)

Hey Kady! Finally made it over to see how you're doing. When will you be feeding your 1st raw meal, or have you already? I definitely suggest going moderate on the bone to begin with. Some dogs will have loose stools, some hard. Jinny had hard stools when I 1st switched her, and I had to be real careful to only feed her 10-15% bone in any given meal. You will know how it's going within the first couple days. 

I know you asked about supplements. It's not a bad idea to wait a bit on most supplements to see how she's doing. However, keeping the probiotic & possibly adding a digestive enzyme or some green tripe can help w/ the transition. Also, I would add the fish oil back in later on. Unless you can get a good deal of grass-fed beef, wild deer or elk, or oily fish, IMO the omega-3's are lacking. 

Best of luck!


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## kady05 (Jul 29, 2011)

Debo & Jinny said:


> Hey Kady! Finally made it over to see how you're doing. When will you be feeding your 1st raw meal, or have you already? I definitely suggest going moderate on the bone to begin with. Some dogs will have loose stools, some hard. Jinny had hard stools when I 1st switched her, and I had to be real careful to only feed her 10-15% bone in any given meal. You will know how it's going within the first couple days.
> 
> I know you asked about supplements. It's not a bad idea to wait a bit on most supplements to see how she's doing. However, keeping the probiotic & possibly adding a digestive enzyme or some green tripe can help w/ the transition. Also, I would add the fish oil back in later on. Unless you can get a good deal of grass-fed beef, wild deer or elk, or oily fish, IMO the omega-3's are lacking.
> 
> Best of luck!


Hey 

Haven't started yet, wanted to get my freezer first. But I did just get one the other day, so now I just need to get some chicken and go! I'm going to start with chicken quarters and see how that goes. I will definitely update once I start!


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## Debo & Jinny (Apr 26, 2011)

Good plan! I think quarters have the perfect amount of bone to start with.


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## monkeys23 (Dec 8, 2010)

Can't wait to hear how it goes! I started with quarters too.


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## kady05 (Jul 29, 2011)

monkeys23 said:


> Can't wait to hear how it goes! I started with quarters too.


Well I got 20lbs. of quarters at the store today.. they were on sale for $5.90 for 10lbs., which I thought was pretty good. So I got home and cut them up (halfed them) since I don't want to overfeed to start. OMG I am going to have to get used to this raw meat thing LOL. The things I do for my dogs.. anyway, we start tomorrow morning! Piper was going NUTS when I was cutting so I have a feeling she won't be one that turns it down when I offer it to her.


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

magicre said:


> i wouldn't recommend supplements the first few weeks at least, on raw. let the body get used to a whole different way of eating....but that's me.
> 
> if there is a problem, you won't have to wonder what it is...and if there isn't, it won't take long before you add them back in.
> 
> you have more than just chicken to see how they fare....so as a precaution, i'd stop the supps.


actually, after re reading what i said, i meant to say months....no supps for a few months..it's going to take a few months to intro all the proteins you need to intro....supps and treats can interfere with that transition...

in looking back, i'd say it took my dogs about a year to fully transition.


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

kady05 said:


> Well I got 20lbs. of quarters at the store today.. they were on sale for $5.90 for 10lbs., which I thought was pretty good. So I got home and cut them up (halfed them) since I don't want to overfeed to start. OMG I am going to have to get used to this raw meat thing LOL. The things I do for my dogs.. anyway, we start tomorrow morning! Piper was going NUTS when I was cutting so I have a feeling she won't be one that turns it down when I offer it to her.


you've already picked up one of the most important starts to raw and that is to not overfeed.

welcome to the greatest ride of all....can't wait to hear how it goes tomorrow or when you start.


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## kady05 (Jul 29, 2011)

magicre said:


> you've already picked up one of the most important starts to raw and that is to not overfeed.
> 
> welcome to the greatest ride of all....can't wait to hear how it goes tomorrow or when you start.


I'll definitely update


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