# Veterinary Coalition to Target Drop in Client Visits DVM 360 Oct. 1, 2010



## Kris L. Christine (Mar 25, 2009)

*Veterinary Coalition to Target Drop in Client Visits*_ DVM NEWSMAGAZINE _October 1, 2010 Veterinary coalition to target drop in client visits - DVM

A couple of quotes from the article: "At presstime, a planning meeting is slated for November to bring leaders in practice and industry together in an attempt to carve out a series of strategies to help reverse a trend of dwindling client visits. " 

"Heartworm prevention represents a huge opportunity for practitioners, Payne says, especially if the profession can improve compliance rates and convert pet owners who are not currently giving heartworm preventives to their pets. In fact, he believes a wholesale push could offset losses from flea and tick product revenue for practices. "


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## whiteleo (Sep 7, 2008)

I believe a raw feeding diet is also to blame for the drop in vet visits!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## Kris L. Christine (Mar 25, 2009)

whiteleo said:


> I believe a raw feeding diet is also to blame for the drop in vet visits!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


Good point. Also, the more informed pet owners are, the less likely they are to bring their pets in for unnecessary procedures.


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## k9capture_16 (Aug 23, 2010)

Sigh in the end its all about money. I like how they use the word compliance..lol I dont comply to anyone regarding my dog. People are starting to think for themselves, which is why less people are bringing their dogs to the vet..


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

i think it's money.....

there's an increase in awareness, but times are tough out there....dentists, doctors, and vets are suffering.


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## k9capture_16 (Aug 23, 2010)

‎"the first major planning meeting is slated for November in either Topeka, Kan. or Kansas City and will be coordinated by Dr. Janet Donlin of Hill's Pet Nutrition."

Theres the first problem


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## SerenityFL (Sep 28, 2010)

Kris L. Christine said:


> "...especially if the profession can improve compliance rates and convert pet owners "


Yah, I'm not down with the whole, "compliance" thing either. Sounds like a shady way of saying, "force"....eventually making it a law. That doesn't sit well with me.


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## k9capture_16 (Aug 23, 2010)

Could they actually make it law for you to not abide with the vets wishes? LIke not feeding raw etc etc?


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## SerenityFL (Sep 28, 2010)

k9capture_16 said:


> Could they actually make it law for you to not abide with the vets wishes? LIke not feeding raw etc etc?


They can make anything a law. For example, in some states, it is the law to get a yearly vaccination for rabies for all pets. Always follow the money, follow the lobbyists, then find out who got paid what to make what law. 

It doesn't mean they WILL, I just don't like the word, "compliance" because that never has a good outcome.


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

looks like they're targeting heartworm prevention.

good luck with that in western washington.


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## k9capture_16 (Aug 23, 2010)

So what your saying is they could make it ilaw to have your pets on HW medication? Its could be law that if the vets dont recommend raw for your pet that it would be against the law to feed it. Or you must do yearly boosters not just rabies too? Ugh do you seriously think that would happen? I doubt it. Then again they already took away our choice to spay/neuter by introducing dumb speuter laws.


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## DaneMama (Jun 27, 2008)

I don't think anymore laws are going to be put into effect. There is only one law pertaining to the vet care of your animals and that is rabies law. Why? Because rabies is a threat to humans and for good reason. There is no cure for rabies and it's important to keep it under control. Of course you can get in huge trouble for not providing adequate food, shelter and care for your animals but that is another subject all together.

They won't create bogus laws to get people to go to the vet more.


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## k9capture_16 (Aug 23, 2010)

Well look at Delta Society's ban on raw fed pets? I never thought something like that would be put into effect yet it has. So whats not the say vets wont start saying be should ban raw feeding in general because scientifically its a health risk for people. I know it wont happen but still lol


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## <3mysiberianhusky (Oct 3, 2010)

i order all my flea and heart worm stuff online, its a lot cheaper... i may start buying the vaccinations online also... i have to pay $35 plus the cost of the vaccination and the needles... i could easily give him a shot myself. when i had got jaxon neutered i had asked my vet about what she thought about the blue buffalo food and she was like it hasnt been around as long as science diet. i told her i wasnt feeding my dog that expensive garbage lol... we need vets that dont recommend that and who are more open about whats in the dog food...


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## Mia (Oct 4, 2010)

Looks like they wanna save it the rule of the roost no matter the cost.

I seriousily hope they don't make it a law. Medicine is a huge industry that just loves making ppl sick (likewise with pets)

Not in all cases but a majority.


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## SerenityFL (Sep 28, 2010)

danemomma, my point about the rabies is that some states accept a vaccination that lasts three years and other states insist it be done every single year. 

Again, I do not actually think they would make HW prevention a law, I'm only stating that they can make anything a law if they really want to do so.


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## BrownieM (Aug 30, 2010)

SerenityFL said:


> danemomma, my point about the rabies is that some states accept a vaccination that lasts three years and other states insist it be done every single year.
> 
> Again, I do not actually think they would make HW prevention a law, I'm only stating that they can make anything a law if they really want to do so.


I have always wondered this...

Is the 3 year rabies vaccine more potent than the 1 year vaccine? Or is it the same exact strength?


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## DaneMama (Jun 27, 2008)

k9capture_16 said:


> Well look at Delta Society's ban on raw fed pets? I never thought something like that would be put into effect yet it has. So whats not the say vets wont start saying be should ban raw feeding in general because scientifically its a health risk for people. I know it wont happen but still lol


Yeah, but there are definite ways of getting around the Delta Society's ban on raw fed dogs. How are they to know what you feed your dogs at home?




<3mysiberianhusky said:


> i may start buying the vaccinations online also... i have to pay $35 plus the cost of the vaccination and the needles... i could easily give him a shot myself.


Just FYI it would be pointless for you to buy vaccines online and do them yourself. No one would view them as "legit" because you gave them and there is no way to PROVE that you actually did give them. At least for Rabies, it must be given by a licensed vet for it to be recognized by the state and other facilities. Unless you just want the peace of mind for yourself alone that your dog is covered....I wouldn't waste the money.



BrownieM said:


> I have always wondered this...
> 
> Is the 3 year rabies vaccine more potent than the 1 year vaccine? Or is it the same exact strength?


If the manufacturer states that its a 1 year vaccine its only "good" for one year. I still think that these vaccines are good for a lot longer than that. The 1 and 3 year vaccines are supposed to be different but I don't see how they really could be.


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## k9capture_16 (Aug 23, 2010)

I read somewhere that often times the 3 years rabies vaccine is often just a one year re labeled and vice versa....


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## RawFedDogs (Jun 16, 2008)

k9capture_16 said:


> I read somewhere that often times the 3 years rabies vaccine is often just a one year re labeled and vice versa....


The vaccines are the same thing and they actually last at least 7.5 years and probably 10 years or even for life. No one knows yet. That is the purpose of the Rabies Challenge Fund to fund research to determine how long they do last.


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## Kris L. Christine (Mar 25, 2009)

SerenityFL said:


> They can make anything a law. For example, in some states, it is the law to get a yearly vaccination for rabies for all pets. .


Actually, all 50 states now have laws that allow for pets to be vaccinated against rabies once every 3 years. In some states (Texas for one), however, local municipalities are allowed to override state law and require annual vaccinations.


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## Kris L. Christine (Mar 25, 2009)

k9capture_16 said:


> I read somewhere that often times the 3 years rabies vaccine is often just a one year re labeled and vice versa....


 The USDA allows vaccine manufacturers to relabel their 3 year rabies vaccines as 1 year products. This link Welcome to Calm Animal Care: Traditional and Complementary Pet Care , you will be taken to the Calm Animal Care website, which has posted Colorado State University's Small Animal Vaccination Protocol for its veterinary teaching hospital, which states:"Even with rabies vaccines, the label may be misleading in that a three year duration of immunity product may also be labeled and sold as a one year duration of immunity product." 

According to Dr. Ronald Schultz, Chair of the Department of Pathobiological Sciences at the University of Wisconsin School of Veterinary Medicine, "There is no benefit from annual rabies vaccination and most one year rabies products are similar or identical to the 3-year products with regard to duration of immunity and effectiveness. However, if they are 1 year rabies vaccines, they must be legally given annually!.  ( *What Everyone Needs to Know about Canine Vaccines,* What Everyone Needs to Know About Canine Vaccines) 

Dr. Schultz's challenge and serological studies on canine vaccines form a large part of the scientific data base upon which the 2003 and 2006 American Animal Hospital Association's Canine Vaccine Guidelines are based, as well as the 2007 World Small Animal Veterinary Association's Vaccine Guidelines. Dr. Schultz is currently conducting the concurrent 5 & 7 year rabies challenge studies for The Rabies Challenge Fund. UW-Madison School of Veterinary Medicine 

* Canine Vaccine Update* Dr. Craig Datz April 1, 2008 _DVM360_ 
Canine vaccine update (Proceedings) - Veterinary Healthcare
 "..some brands of rabies vaccine are identical whether labeled as 1- or 3-year"


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## SerenityFL (Sep 28, 2010)

RawFedDogs said:


> The vaccines are the same thing and they actually last at least 7.5 years and probably 10 years or even for life. No one knows yet. That is the purpose of the Rabies Challenge Fund to fund research to determine how long they do last.


I completely agree with you. I've read so much about this and it appears that quite a few believe the same which is why I am frustrated that in our area, we have to, by law, give it to them once a year. 

I don't like over vaccinating my animals but how do you get around a law. Sigh.


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## <3mysiberianhusky (Oct 3, 2010)

there are a lot of people where i live that vaccinate their dogs themselves, i would take my dog to the vet for the rabies, but not for things like the bordetella 

here in PA we have to get a booster for the rabies the next year after the puppies got their first shot, then its every 3 years after that... at least thats what my vet told me


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## Kris L. Christine (Mar 25, 2009)

<3mysiberianhusky said:


> here in PA we have to get a booster for the rabies the next year after the puppies got their first shot, then its every 3 years after that... at least thats what my vet told me


Yes, your vet is correct, that is what Pennsylvania law requires.


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## Mia (Oct 4, 2010)

Funny I just talked to a supplier a ways from me and she said the law is a by-law but not enforceable. They cannot charge you simply because you did not vaccine your dog.

I was rather happy to hear that. They are pretty lax here. I wanted to ask a few around or close to my township.

The person I spoke to also does not vacc her dogs. She has sheps, st. bernards and I can't remember what else.


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## k9capture_16 (Aug 23, 2010)

I called the health department here (from a private number) and asked them about this law. I told them I cannot find a vet who will write me an exemption form for anything...and he goes "Yes it is a by law to vaccinate against rabies, the rabies in canines in Ontario is pretty much zero. You have to do whats healthy for your pets and vets are a business and would like money so I can see why they wont write you an exempt form. In this case you do not have to vaccinate and we dont care. The only time we would is if your dog bit someone and we got called out. We would then just ask you to vaccinate for rabies after the 10 day Quarenteen period and depending on the inspector that comes out if you tell him what you just told me, they may make an exception"

So no more vaccines for anything on this side.


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## RCTRIPLEFRESH5 (Feb 11, 2010)

k9capture_16 said:


> So what your saying is they could make it ilaw to have your pets on HW medication? Its could be law that if the vets dont recommend raw for your pet that it would be against the law to feed it. Or you must do yearly boosters not just rabies too? Ugh do you seriously think that would happen? I doubt it. Then again they already took away our choice to spay/neuter by introducing dumb speuter laws.


if they made that law, a simple solution is to switch vets. not all vets are anti raw...they cant really make that a law,because you can switch vets, and what if the new vet has a differing view? by law who do you follow?


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## RCTRIPLEFRESH5 (Feb 11, 2010)

k9capture_16 said:


> I called the health department here (from a private number) and asked them about this law. I told them I cannot find a vet who will write me an exemption form for anything...and he goes "Yes it is a by law to vaccinate against rabies, the rabies in canines in Ontario is pretty much zero. You have to do whats healthy for your pets and vets are a business and would like money so I can see why they wont write you an exempt form. In this case you do not have to vaccinate and we dont care. The only time we would is if your dog bit someone and we got called out. We would then just ask you to vaccinate for rabies after the 10 day Quarenteen period and depending on the inspector that comes out if you tell him what you just told me, they may make an exception"
> 
> So no more vaccines for anything on this side.


shanes supposed to get his distemper shot in 2 weeks. i dont think vaccines are bad. and im embarrassed to say no, anyway.


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## 1605 (May 27, 2009)

k9capture_16 said:


> I called the health department here (from a private number) and asked them about this law. I told them I cannot find a vet who will write me an exemption form for anything...and he goes "Yes it is a by law to vaccinate against rabies, the rabies in canines in Ontario is pretty much zero. You have to do whats healthy for your pets and vets are a business and would like money so I can see why they wont write you an exempt form. In this case you do not have to vaccinate and we dont care. The only time we would is if your dog bit someone and we got called out. We would then just ask you to vaccinate for rabies after the 10 day Quarenteen period and depending on the inspector that comes out if you tell him what you just told me, they may make an exception"
> 
> So no more vaccines for anything on this side.


I know we are getting the information from you 2nd hand (hearsay) but I'm a little concerned about your quote from someone at your local health department that says "....In this case you do not have to vaccinate and we dont [sic] care. The only time we would is if your dog bit someone and we got called out. We would then just ask you to vaccinate for rabies after the 10 day Quaranteen [sic] period and depending on the inspector that comes out if you tell him what you just told me they may make an exception..."

What about if your dog gets bitten by a rabid raccoon? Are you so concerned about saving $20 for a rabies shot that you would risk your dog's life? 

The recent trend of people refusing to vaccinate their animals or children is not in the best interest of either. There are now children getting severe cases of measles or similar "childhood diseases" that while very common during my generation's schooldays, are almost unheard of in Gen Y and forward. So if they are exposed to these viruses, they have no immunity and thus are hit very hard, sometimes with life-threatening severity. All because Mommy &/or Daddy read alarmist "case studies" that have since been debunked. 

What's next? Bloodletting?


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## spookychick13 (Jan 26, 2010)

I am going to keep my opinion about vaccines to myself, but here is something to think about.

We have a cat here in rabies quarantine as we speak because he found a bat in the owner's attic.
He never goes outside and never had a vaccine in his life.


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## RawFedDogs (Jun 16, 2008)

SubMariner said:


> What about if your dog gets bitten by a rabid raccoon? Are you so concerned about saving $20 for a rabies shot that you would risk your dog's life?


It's not the cost of vaccine for most of us. We know and understand how an immune system works and how vaccines work. We know and understand the potential harm to any living being to vaccinate. We also know and understand that if a dog has been vaccinated one time for rabies after the age of about 16 weeks, they they are immune for life. Further rabies vaccinations can cause a lot of harm and do not add to immunity in the least. There is nothing to be gained immunologically by vaccinating for rabies every year or every 3 years. It is marketing hype by the pharm and vet industires.

When rabies vaccines first came out, no one bothered to test how long they last. The manufactures just decided to make them an annual thing. A few years ago it was proven that the vaccines last at least 7.5 years. The vets raised hell and said it would ruin them if they only gave vaccinations every 7.5 years so a compromise was reached saying every 3 years. Not because the vaccine went away after that period but the vets wouldn't accept only giving the shots every 7.5 years. 

Research is on going to see exactly how long the vaccines last. Common thinking is that it would be at least 10 years and probably for life. Soooo, money is not the reason for many of us not vaccinating our dogs.



> The recent trend of people refusing to vaccinate their animals or children is not in the best interest of either. There are now children getting severe cases of measles or similar "childhood diseases" that while very common during my generation's schooldays, are almost unheard of in Gen Y and forward. So if they are exposed to these viruses, they have no immunity and thus are hit very hard, sometimes with life-threatening severity.


So what you are saying is that if those immunizations had never happened, then the childhood diseases would be no big deal just like when we were children. Measels, chicken pox, whooping cough, mumps were all diseases that practically every child got and got over pretty quickly with no harm done. It was considered part of growing up. Very very very rarely did anyone die from these diseases. I would venture a guess that more people die from the vaccines today than died from the diseases back in our day.


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## k9capture_16 (Aug 23, 2010)

SubMariner a rabies vaccine here at the cheapest vet is $95. The most expensive vet is $130. So now I am not concerned about saving $20. Mine has been vaccinated against rabies 2-3 times in his life. That will provide him at least 5-7 years immunity. Rabies here is Nill. You dont see it period. Here then actually drop baits with the oral rabies vaccine off helicopters over the woods to vaccinate skunks, raccoons, coyotes..the odd stray dog that wants to eat one etc. So its not like I have never vaccinated him. I just choose to not bow down to vets to get it done when they want when studies have been proven to give further immunities then what vets claim.


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## 1605 (May 27, 2009)

RawFedDogs said:


> It's not the cost of vaccine for most of us. We know and understand how an immune system works and how vaccines work. We know and understand the potential harm to any living being to vaccinate. We also know and understand that if a dog has been vaccinated one time for rabies after the age of about 16 weeks, they they are immune for life. Further rabies vaccinations can cause a lot of harm and do not add to immunity in the least. There is nothing to be gained immunologically by vaccinating for rabies every year or every 3 years. It is marketing hype by the pharm and vet industires.



No offense, but one study quoted in this thread http://dogfoodchat.com/forum/dog-he...issues-vaccinations-dodds-schultz-2-10-a.html is not enough for me to gamble my dog's health on. As you are aware, not all viruses can be immunized against "for life", since they change every time they are contracted by a new host. So while you can immunize against measles, you can't against the common cold.



RawFedDogs said:


> When rabies vaccines first came out, no one bothered to test how long they last. The manufactures just decided to make them an annual thing. A few years ago it was proven that the vaccines last at least 7.5 years. The vets raised hell and said it would ruin them if they only gave vaccinations every 7.5 years so a compromise was reached saying every 3 years. Not because the vaccine went away after that period but the vets wouldn't accept only giving the shots every 7.5 years.


While I agree that vets are sometimes motivated by $$, I would appreciate some proof of this assertion.



RawFedDogs said:


> So what you are saying is that if those immunizations had never happened, then the childhood diseases would be no big deal just like when we were children. Measels, chicken pox, whooping cough, mumps were all diseases that practically every child got and got over pretty quickly with no harm done. It was considered part of growing up. Very very very rarely did anyone die from these diseases. I would venture a guess that more people die from the vaccines today than died from the diseases back in our day.


And I would venture a guess "that more people die from the vaccines today than died from the diseases back in our day" is false. Personally I would have preferred getting a shot to having to suffer through two weeks+ of measles or chickenpox. Don't forget there was the "still contagious" time frame where even though you weren't really symptomatic, you were still quarantined away from your peers/school. Plus you were never guaranteed that your case would be "mild"; I didn't have what I would consider a "bad" case of measles, but my sister certainly did.



k9capture_16 said:


> SubMariner a rabies vaccine here at the cheapest vet is $95. The most expensive vet is $130. So now I am not concerned about saving $20. Mine has been vaccinated against rabies 2-3 times in his life. That will provide him at least 5-7 years immunity. Rabies here is Nill. You dont see it period. Here then actually drop baits with the oral rabies vaccine off helicopters over the woods to vaccinate skunks, raccoons, coyotes..the odd stray dog that wants to eat one etc. So its not like I have never vaccinated him. I just choose to not bow down to vets to get it done when they want when studies have been proven to give further immunities then what vets claim.


K9, if you are concerned about the price of vaccinating your dog, I would look online for mobile vaccination clinics. They charge you simply for the vaccination(s). We had our dog immunized for both rabies & dhpp for $30.

However, you are being naive if you think there are no rabid animals in Ontario. Just because the MNR program has been successful in their anti-rabies campaign in some parts of Southern Ontario, this is only for raccoons & foxes. It doesn't mean that there is NO rabies in those areas. I would encourage you to look here on the Ministry of Natural Resources website for more information: Rabies in Ontario.

Also, if anyone wants to travel outside the US with their pet, you are required to have a CURRENT rabies immunization certificate for them. We've had to produce Zio's certificate every time we've gone up to Ontario to visit our families. 

I am NOT looking to start an argument on this subject. However, I don't want to expose needlessly expose my pet to a fatal disease based on conspiracy theories about vets & big pharma.


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