# kibble suggestions needed



## InkedMarie (Sep 9, 2011)

Due to some upcoming changes, I'm in the market for a new kibble. The upcoming changes mean I need to save on dog food somewhere. Boone is staying on what he's on for allergy reasons so this is about the other one. Ginger is a 2.5 year old Brittany. Her only issue is frequent poops, anywhere from 3-6 times a day. The only time she had had less is when on a morning meal of Darwin's pre made raw and afternoon meal of Brothers kibble. Currently, I am using up a couple boxes of The Honest Kitchen for her morning meal with Darwin's a couple times a week. She is a tiny Brittany, 28 pounds and she runs on the thin side. I like her lean but she could stand a couple pounds.
So, suggestions? For her, grains are fine but I like a good amount of meat, not a heavy grain food. Thanks!


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## meggels (May 30, 2010)

So, you need to save money right?


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## InkedMarie (Sep 9, 2011)

meggels said:


> So, you need to save money right?


Yes, that's correct. Hoping some people, including the guys, will pipe in with suggestions!


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## kevin bradley (Aug 9, 2009)

Tim's. $1.30 or so/lb. from Petflow. Or Fromm Classics or Gold.


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## DaViking (Sep 27, 2011)

InkedMarie said:


> Yes, that's correct. Hoping some people, including the guys, will pipe in with suggestions!


Monster is better than me to sniff out the "most bang for your buck" formulas you have south of the border but how about Innova Adult Chicken or Adult Red Meat? Still too much? Other usual suspects are Eagle Pack, Dr Tims, Annamaet, Precise, Fromm Classic and Royal-Canin Medium 25. The only grain free I come close to recommending is Horizon Legacy but it is not in the cheaper end. Horizon Pulsar is favorably priced though. Never tried it but might be worth a shot knowing the quality of their Legacy foods.


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## kevin bradley (Aug 9, 2009)

just a guess... I think Monster will be calling for some Propac


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## InkedMarie (Sep 9, 2011)

kevin bradley said:


> Tim's. $1.30 or so/lb. from Petflow. Or Fromm Classics or Gold.


Any particular Dr Tim's for a dog who tends to be a bit thin?


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## InkedMarie (Sep 9, 2011)

DaViking said:


> Monster is better than me to sniff out the "most bang for your buck" formulas you have south of the border but how about Innova Adult Chicken or Adult Red Meat? Still too much? Other usual suspects are Eagle Pack, Dr Tims, Annamaet, Precise, Fromm Classic and Royal-Canin Medium 25. The only grain free I come close to recommending is Horizon Legacy but it is not in the cheaper end. Horizon Pulsar is favorably priced though. Never tried it but might be worth a shot knowing the quality of their Legacy foods.


At least up here but Innova is very costly. I can certainly check online. Since I'm now okay with ordering food in, I figure I can use something I maybe didn't use before. The Brothers is working great for Boone so he's staying on it but it's $77 for a 25lb bag and I need to save a little


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## meggels (May 30, 2010)

I can't believe Ginger is only 28lbs!!! I always thought she was like Abbie's size, 40lbs.

I second the recommendation of Precise, Fromm Gold, Dr. Tim's. I would think for Dr. Tim's, you'd probably want the Pursuit, which has 20% fat. If you wanna do a Grain Free, maybe Earthborn?


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## riddick4811 (Nov 2, 2011)

I wouldn't recommend the From Classic for a dog with problems putting on weight as the ones I fed it too dropped weight on it, but their Gold might be an option. You could use the puppy too for more protein/fat. 

Victor Hi Pro (runs $36/40lb bag) or Hi Energy ($33/40lbs) in my area. 
Eagle Pack Original You can get is for around $1 to $1.30/lb depending on what size bag. 
Annamaet Extra runs around $56/40lbs online


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## Javadoo (May 23, 2011)

I second Earthborn or Fromm.
Are you anywhere near Plaistow?
Statleine Pet Supply on 125 in Plaistow has the best prices I have found anywhere.
I paid $34.99 for a 28 lb bag of Earthborn.
I rotate Earthborn & Fromm (grain free), so I haven't checked the prices on Fromm Classic, but I do know they sell it.


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## Felix (Oct 9, 2012)

Fromm, Nutrisource, that's all I have to add.


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## BeagleCountry (Jan 20, 2012)

When cost is a factor look at the calories per cup. For example, Innova is 500+ calories per cup whereas other brands may have 300-400.

Although not popular on DFC I am very pleased with the results of Blue Buffalo Wilderness Salmon (400+ calories) for the rescues. It may take a bit of time to transition without digestive upset but results in the most beautiful coats I have seen from kibble. It is only the Salmon formula. The same results are not seen with the other Wilderness formulas. The dogs fed EVO (500+ calories) have an appearance similar to raw fed. Lots of muscle without the underlayer of fat commonly seen with kibble fed dogs. The coats of the older dogs fed Innova do not have the shine and texture as those fed BB Wilderness or EVO. Innova also results in large size poop.

Chewy.com has good prices. Depending on the seller, which can change frequently, Amazon.com can be competitive.


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## monster'sdad (Jul 29, 2012)

InkedMarie said:


> Any particular Dr Tim's for a dog who tends to be a bit thin?


You can use Pursuit 30/20 for all so long as they get out and run around, otherwise Kinesis for the other. Pursuit has carbohydrate levels like most "high" protein foods but calories are skewed to fat calories.

For what Tim is charging, or what Petflow is charging for the 44lb bags $1.30lb delivered and no tax, that is the best value around. 

Retail where I live Pursuit sells for $1.90 lb plus tax and gas to go get it.

If you wanna go a bit cheaper, then Victor's foods at $.75lb, are a smart buy.


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## monster'sdad (Jul 29, 2012)

BeagleCountry said:


> When cost is a factor look at the calories per cup. For example, Innova is 500+ calories per cup whereas other brands may have 300-400.
> 
> Although not popular on DFC I am very pleased with the results of Blue Buffalo Wilderness Salmon (400+) for the rescues. It may take a bit of time to transition without digestive upset but results in the most beautiful coats I have seen from kibble. It is only the Salmon formula. The same results are not seen with the other Wilderness formulas. The dogs fed EVO (500+ calories) have an appearance most similar to raw fed. Lots of muscle without the underlayer of fat commonly seen with kibble fed dogs. The coats of the older dogs fed Innova do not have the shine and texture as those fed BB Wilderness or EVO. Innova also results in large size poop.
> 
> Chew.com has good prices. Depending on the seller, which can change frequently, Amazon.com can be competitive.


When you look at cost you have to look at calories per LB or KG, some foods pack better in a cup by volume and are hard to compare. 

Still calories don't tell the whole story, because fat calories stick the most, protein the least.


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## Georgiapeach (Jan 24, 2011)

Do you have a Tractor Supply? Their 4Health kibble isn't bad, and it's very budget friendly - maybe the Potato and Salmon Formula (low grain; it has some barley in it)? If you're a member of Costco, they have a couple of grain free formulas (lamb and chicken) that aren't bad either. I'm currently trying Acana Chicken and Burbank Potato (grain inclusive - steel cut oats; thought I'd give it a try - so far, so good, but I'm nervous b/c I'm traditionally a grain free fan). It's Acana's least costly variety, I think. My dog food supplier swears by it - says that several breeding/show kennels that buy from him are using it with great results.


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## monster'sdad (Jul 29, 2012)

Georgiapeach said:


> Do you have a Tractor Supply? Their 4Health kibble isn't bad, and it's very budget friendly - maybe the Potato and Salmon Formula (low grain; it has some barley in it)? If you're a member of Costco, they have a couple of grain free formulas (lamb and chicken) that aren't bad either. I'm currently trying Acana Chicken and Burbank Potato (grain inclusive - steel cut oats; thought I'd give it a try - so far, so good, but I'm nervous b/c I'm traditionally a grain free fan). It's Acana's least costly variety, I think. My dog food supplier swears by it - says that several breeding/show kennels that buy from him are using it with great results.


Oats are great. Loaded with good nutrition.


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## DaViking (Sep 27, 2011)

BeagleCountry said:


> When cost is a factor look at the calories per cup. For example, Innova is 500+ calories per cup whereas other brands may have 300-400.
> 
> Although not popular on DFC I am very pleased with the results of Blue Buffalo Wilderness Salmon (400+ calories) for the rescues. It may take a bit of time to transition without digestive upset but results in the most beautiful coats I have seen from kibble. It is only the Salmon formula. The same results are not seen with the other Wilderness formulas. The dogs fed EVO (500+ calories) have an appearance similar to raw fed. Lots of muscle without the underlayer of fat commonly seen with kibble fed dogs. The coats of the older dogs fed Innova do not have the shine and texture as those fed BB Wilderness or EVO. Innova also results in large size poop.
> 
> Chewy.com has good prices. Depending on the seller, which can change frequently, Amazon.com can be competitive.


To compare feeding amounts and cost always start with kcal/kg or kcal/g, calculate the recommended amount in grams for your dog and activity level, then convert that to volume (cups) if you like. Most manufacturers will tell you how many grams per cup.

The Waltham formula for calculating daily energy need:

110 x (weight in kg)[SUP]0.75[/SUP]
This is for an intact dog with a healthy mix of daily activities. Reduce the daily requirement with 25% if your dog is spayed, neutered and/or inactive.


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## InkedMarie (Sep 9, 2011)

meggels said:


> I can't believe Ginger is only 28lbs!!! I always thought she was like Abbie's size, 40lbs.
> 
> I second the recommendation of Precise, Fromm Gold, Dr. Tim's. I would think for Dr. Tim's, you'd probably want the Pursuit, which has 20% fat. If you wanna do a Grain Free, maybe Earthborn?


She's a bitty thing. She and Boone weigh about the same, he may weigh a couple pounds more than her.


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## InkedMarie (Sep 9, 2011)

Javadoo said:


> I second Earthborn or Fromm.
> Are you anywhere near Plaistow?
> Statleine Pet Supply on 125 in Plaistow has the best prices I have found anywhere.
> I paid $34.99 for a 28 lb bag of Earthborn.
> I rotate Earthborn & Fromm (grain free), so I haven't checked the prices on Fromm Classic, but I do know they sell it.


I haven;t been to Plaistow in years! I'm over an hour from there, I believe. Concord is my nearest "big" city.


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## meggels (May 30, 2010)

InkedMarie said:


> She's a bitty thing. She and Boone weigh about the same, he may weigh a couple pounds more than her.


She makes Abbie looks like a fatso lol! And she's only 8lbs more than Murph. Crazy. Funny how shapes and sizes can vary so much.


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## InkedMarie (Sep 9, 2011)

Thank you for all the suggestions. I think I've narrowed it down to Dr Tim's Pursuit and Earthborn Primitive Natural. Dr. Tim's is a better price, like that it comes n 30, 35 or 44lb size; I wonder why that is? Don't most foods have three sizes? Anyway, I will start with that and add in the Primitive Natural as finances allow, as the price is not quite so nice.


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## monster'sdad (Jul 29, 2012)

InkedMarie said:


> Thank you for all the suggestions. I think I've narrowed it down to Dr Tim's Pursuit and Earthborn Primitive Natural. Dr. Tim's is a better price, like that it comes n 30, 35 or 44lb size; I wonder why that is? Don't most foods have three sizes? Anyway, I will start with that and add in the Primitive Natural as finances allow, as the price is not quite so nice.



Petflow carries 7 sizes of Pursuit. Use one food for 3 months and see what works best. Using a food for a few weeks or a month doesn't tell you much. 

Also, if you wanna add something don't add something worse like Primitive, add something like raw green tripe.

You could also use Momentum on the Brit......if that dog doesn't gain weight on that food, she won't gain on anything.


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## InkedMarie (Sep 9, 2011)

monster'sdad said:


> Petflow carries 7 sizes of Pursuit. Use one food for 3 months and see what works best. Using a food for a few weeks or a month doesn't tell you much.
> 
> Also, if you wanna add something don't add something worse like Primitive, add something like raw green tripe.
> 
> You could also use Momentum on the Brit......if that dog doesn't gain weight on that food, she won't gain on anything.


I meant add something as in adding in a different food, for rotational purposes. I gather you don't like Primitive?


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## DaViking (Sep 27, 2011)

Stick with one food only for 10 to 12 weeks before adding any toppers, supplements or a second formula. I don't believe in rotating foods on a monthly or semi monthly basis etc., unless the formulas are almost identical. Enzyme production for new ingredients is in a constant state of flux that way. If you are going to do rotation I would spend some time finding a few really good foods that compliment each other and just more or less randomly feed that plus whatever toppers and supplements you have.


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## meggels (May 30, 2010)

Viking- what would make foods compliment one another? Any examples and explanations why would be lovely


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## DaViking (Sep 27, 2011)

meggels said:


> Viking- what would make foods compliment one another? Any examples and explanations why would be lovely


Just a variation of protein, fat/oils and carbohydrate sources really. Some examples. You could mix Dr Tim's Kinesis (GF), Horizon Legacy Fish and Annamaet Extra.


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## PDXdogmom (Jun 30, 2010)

My suggestion is to take a look at Nutrisource Grain Free Lamb Meal (also includes salmon meal).

It has a sweet spot of 28% protein and 18% fat. It is nutrient dense at 506 kcal per cup. I pay $54 for a 30 lb. bag.

I see that it is available at Concord Agway in NH.


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## monster'sdad (Jul 29, 2012)

PDXdogmom said:


> My suggestion is to take a look at Nutrisource Grain Free Lamb Meal (also includes salmon meal).
> 
> It has a sweet spot of 28% protein and 18% fat. It is nutrient dense at 506 kcal per cup. I pay $54 for a 30 lb. bag.
> 
> I see that it is available at Concord Agway in NH.


The kibble is small if the calories per cup is 506. It is not a reflection of nutrition, rather space management.


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## monster'sdad (Jul 29, 2012)

DaViking said:


> Just a variation of protein, fat/oils and carbohydrate sources really. Some examples. You could mix Dr Tim's Kinesis (GF), Horizon Legacy Fish and Annamaet Extra.



We usually agree on a lot but not on this. Dogs really have very narrow nutritional needs. Animal protein, animal fat, some carbohydrates and a little fiber. If you wanna switch once a year, well ok, but mixing foods doesn't add much.

Dr. Tim's already has protein from chicken, egg, two kinds of fish, pork blood and liver all balanced for you. Three of four sources of fat, and a really good vitamin mineral mix.

So its best for the animal to have consistency. The food is utilized better when nothing else is introduced. Dog's don't adjust to new foods that quickly, even if the stool looks ok.

The other foods already have variety as well, so stick with one for 3 months to see if there is any difference,


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## InkedMarie (Sep 9, 2011)

When I say rotational feeding, I should probably explain. I generally feed the same food for 3-5 months. I like to have a handful of foods my dogs can do well on, in case I'm unable to find one or there is an ingredient change. I've been on the "only grain free" for awhile but I wonder, in Ginger's case, if grain inclusive might be better for her. 
PDXDogmom, are you here in NH too? I've been to that Agway many times, the owners opened up another store ten min from my home.


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## PDXdogmom (Jun 30, 2010)

InkedMarie said:


> When I say rotational feeding, I should probably explain. I generally feed the same food for 3-5 months. I like to have a handful of foods my dogs can do well on, in case I'm unable to find one or there is an ingredient change. I've been on the "only grain free" for awhile but I wonder, in Ginger's case, if grain inclusive might be better for her.
> PDXDogmom, are you here in NH too? I've been to that Agway many times, the owners opened up another store ten min from my home.


No not from NH . . . I'm in Oregon. I just used the "where to buy" feature on the Nutrisource web site when I read that you were near Concord, NH. It's a state I would love to visit sometime.

monster'sdad: the actual kibble size of the Nutrisource Grain Free Lamb is 3/8" diameter and 3/16" thick.

This is how the website describes the calories for this formula:
**Amount of food consumed will vary based on activity level, age, breed and environment. Standard 8-oz/250 cc measuring cup holds approximately 4.33 oz/123 g of Nutrisource Grain Free Lamb Formula Dog Food. Consult your veterinarian if you believe your dog is too thin or overweight. Remember it is important to have clean, fresh water available for your dog at all times.

Calorie content Metabolizable Energy (calculated): 4,120 kcal per kg, 506 kcal per cup
**Amount of food consumed will vary based on activity level, age, breed and environment. Standard 8-oz/250 cc measuring cup holds approximately 4.33 oz/123 g of Nutrisource Grain Free Lamb Formula Dog Food. 

Calorie content Metabolizable Energy (calculated): 4,120 kcal per kg, 506 kcal per cup

Cups per bag 1.5 lbs. 6 Cups

5 lbs. 18 Cups

15 lbs. 55 Cups

30 lbs. 111 Cups


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## InkedMarie (Sep 9, 2011)

PDX: if you're going to visit, come during fall, it's the prettiest time of the year. If you happen to be a motorcycle enthusiast, then come during Bike Week!


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## monster'sdad (Jul 29, 2012)

PDXdogmom said:


> No not from NH . . . I'm in Oregon. I just used the "where to buy" feature on the Nutrisource web site when I read that you were near Concord, NH. It's a state I would love to visit sometime.
> 
> monster'sdad: the actual kibble size of the Nutrisource Grain Free Lamb is 3/8" diameter and 3/16" thick.
> 
> ...


3/8th inch is a very small kibble size and if it is round or flat a lot of food will fit in the cup (by volume) so the 506 calories is because a lot of food by weight fits in the cup by volume. The calories by Kg is what you would expect for a food with that fat level. 123 grams is on the high side for a cup, so its due to the kibble shape and type like I thought.

Some foods like Royal Canin have similar calories by weight but a cup weighs about half that because the kibble is so big that not many fit in the cup without lots of gaps.

The 506 calories does not mean the food is more nutritionally dense.


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## DaViking (Sep 27, 2011)

monster'sdad said:


> We usually agree on a lot but not on this. Dogs really have very narrow nutritional needs. Animal protein, animal fat, some carbohydrates and a little fiber. If you wanna switch once a year, well ok, but mixing foods doesn't add much.
> 
> Dr. Tim's already has protein from chicken, egg, two kinds of fish, pork blood and liver all balanced for you. Three of four sources of fat, and a really good vitamin mineral mix.
> 
> ...


I don't think we disagree that much actually. I didn't say rotation this way is better than sticking with a well balanced food but for those who do want to rotate I feel it's better to just intermix randomly what food he/she choose rather than switching different foods every month or two. I personally stick with one food and just add some fish, fruits and some minerals.


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## monster'sdad (Jul 29, 2012)

InkedMarie said:


> When I say rotational feeding, I should probably explain. I generally feed the same food for 3-5 months. I like to have a handful of foods my dogs can do well on, in case I'm unable to find one or there is an ingredient change. I've been on the "only grain free" for awhile but I wonder, in Ginger's case, if grain inclusive might be better for her.
> PDXDogmom, are you here in NH too? I've been to that Agway many times, the owners opened up another store ten min from my home.


Brits are a high energy breed and the ones I know are lean. They all tend to eat traditional 30/20 foods. You won't ever see a trial Brit eating a GF food.

Try a performance food like Pursuit or Momentum. You will see a difference. She doesn't need Momentum but she probably will do very well on it, but then you will need to feed your other dog something else, too many calories.


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## monster'sdad (Jul 29, 2012)

DaViking said:


> I don't think we disagree that much actually. I didn't say rotation this way is better than sticking with a well balanced food but for those who do want to rotate I feel it's better to just intermix randomly what food he/she choose rather than switching different foods every month or two. I personally stick with one food and just add some fish, fruits and some minerals.[/QUOTE
> 
> Gotcha


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## meggels (May 30, 2010)

monster'sdad said:


> Brits are a high energy breed and the ones I know are lean. They all tend to eat traditional 30/20 foods. You won't ever see a trial Brit eating a GF food.
> 
> Try a performance food like Pursuit or Momentum. You will see a difference. She doesn't need Momentum but she probably will do very well on it, but then you will need to feed your other dog something else, too many calories.



I think she is planning on keeping the PBGV on the Allergy formula from Brother's, since he's been doing so well on it.


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## InkedMarie (Sep 9, 2011)

monster'sdad said:


> Brits are a high energy breed and the ones I know are lean. They all tend to eat traditional 30/20 foods. You won't ever see a trial Brit eating a GF food.
> 
> Try a performance food like Pursuit or Momentum. You will see a difference. She doesn't need Momentum but she probably will do very well on it, but then you will need to feed your other dog something else, too many calories.


I had a nice phone call from Dr. Tim yesterday, he suggested the Pursuit. Two weeks ago, I ordered a bunch of Nutrisca 4lb bags ($1.20 something a pound, couldnt go wrong) which has not arrived yet. Apparently more is due tomorrow so if I don't have an email by end of day on Monday, saying it's been shipped, I'm going to cancel the order. If it does arrive, she'll eat that first then i'll order the Pursuit. My other dog is staying on the Darwins pre made/Brothers Allergy combo. He is doing very well on that, not going to change. 
Two dogs on the same food has been nice, for a few months anyway LOL


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## kevin bradley (Aug 9, 2009)

I've dealt w/ the Customer Service from 2 Dog Food companies that stand out WAY above the rest.

1. Tim
2. Fromm

They are so far ahead of any other company I've corresponded with, its not even close. Tim is probably even in his own league. For pete's sake, the man offerred to send me a free bag of food(I declined politely). But Fromm is excellent in their response time and pretty thought out responses also. 

Just thought it was relevent...sorry Tim if you didn't want this public but its probably important information.

Not all companies provide service like this... when they do, we should publicize it.


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## InkedMarie (Sep 9, 2011)

kevin bradley said:


> I've dealt w/ the Customer Service from 2 Dog Food companies that stand out WAY above the rest.
> 
> 1. Tim
> 2. Fromm
> ...


It's that way with Brothers. The owner called me and we had an hour long conversation about my dog & his issues/needs. Nice to find good dog food owners!


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## kevin bradley (Aug 9, 2009)

InkedMarie said:


> It's that way with Brothers. The owner called me and we had an hour long conversation about my dog & his issues/needs. Nice to find good dog food owners!



good point. I should add that I haven't dealt with EVERY company out there.


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## InkedMarie (Sep 9, 2011)

kevin bradley said:


> good point. I should add that I haven't dealt with EVERY company out there.


I've had exceptional customer service with The Honest Kitchen and Darwins too, just haven't talked to the owners on the phone


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## riddick4811 (Nov 2, 2011)

InkedMarie said:


> I've had exceptional customer service with The Honest Kitchen and Darwins too, just haven't talked to the owners on the phone


I also had excellent customer service from The Honest Kitchen. My Mothers 23 yr old 3lb Chihuahua was injured and her jaw was crushed. She was a picky eater so the sent to samples of all their products and a nice note after contacted them. Unfortunately she wouldn't eat any of them.


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## Jordan S. (Feb 2, 2010)

Are people still somewhat on board with TOTW? My dog eats EVO now but I'm still feeding it to my cats and am not having any issues, still have shiny coats all around.


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## whiteleo (Sep 7, 2008)

I want to say that I am very pleased with the Nature's Variety Instinct Boost kibble, it has added some much needed weight to my rescue/foster and his poops aren't huge.


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## Georgiapeach (Jan 24, 2011)

Jordan S. said:


> Are people still somewhat on board with TOTW? My dog eats EVO now but I'm still feeding it to my cats and am not having any issues, still have shiny coats all around.


My dogs (except my allergy dog, Maddie, who's sensitive to grains and potatoes) do great on TOTW Pacific Stream. I feed it as one of my "go to" kibbles. The price is reasonable, too.

Maddie, my allergy dog, does best on Evo Herring and Salmon (no grains, potato, or alfalfa; fairly limited ingredient list).


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## monster'sdad (Jul 29, 2012)

There is customer service and talking to an expert. If you call Dr. Tim's, you get Dr. Tim, if you call Annamaet you talk to Robert Downey....if you call most others you speak to someone that takes notes, no expertise whatsoever.

It is nice that most companies have a polite person on the phone, but they are generally useless.


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## InkedMarie (Sep 9, 2011)

monster'sdad said:


> There is customer service and talking to an expert. If you call Dr. Tim's, you get Dr. Tim, if you call Annamaet you talk to Robert Downey....if you call most others you speak to someone that takes notes, no expertise whatsoever.
> 
> It is nice that most companies have a polite person on the phone, but they are generally useless.


I agree but I didn't know about Annamaet. I did call there once, spoke to a guy but no idea who it was. If he told me his name, he didn't tell me he was the "head guy".


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