# Cholesterol and grain fed beef



## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

we were at a market today and the butcher was selling us scrap....actually, he sold us the scrap that would go into making hamburger 80/20...

what he said to me was interesting, since he feeds his dogs raw.

that i should be careful in feeding beef to my dogs, unless it's grass fed, grass finished, as corn fed beef can cause high cholesterol in dogs, although not as easily as it does in humans....

that i should only feed the dogs a little bit of the grain fed beef and then i should buy grass fed...and not because he was trying to sell me.

my co op sells me grass fed/grass finished...and that's all well and good...

but, when i run out of that...it's supermarket beef, which is grain fed or grain finished or both.

so what is the risk of high cholesterol for dogs, considering red meat is preferred over other proteins?


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## chowder (Sep 7, 2008)

I would think it would depend if beef is your primary food for your dogs? 

I would have to first do some research and find out if high cholesteral is actually a concern in dogs. I don't remember it being a problem and I've never actually had a dog with any heart problems in all my years of feeding them grocery store kibble in the past. I have seen the occasional dog with a heart condition at work, but not that often. Usually there are a lot of other health problems that are seen before any heart conditions come up. 

So I don't imagine a raw fed dog that eats regular beef as one part of his diet will develop enough of a cholesteral problem from it to be a concern. 

Just my opinion. It might require some more research on the topic. A think a varied diet would take care of any problem.


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

he wasn't saying that beef was the problem....he was saying what the cows eat is the problem....and also applies to humans...

corn fed vs. grass fed is what gives people heart attacks and beef a bad rap is what he's saying.

and, i would say my dogs eat red meat quite a bit...BUT, having said that,
a meal for them may include some sardine, chicken, beef, pork, lamb...all at once...depending on the day of the week, how much bone they've had or need....

i defrost proteins, rather than bag meals..


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## chowder (Sep 7, 2008)

magicre said:


> he wasn't saying that beef was the problem....he was saying what the cows eat is the problem....and also applies to humans...
> 
> corn fed vs. grass fed is what gives people heart attacks and beef a bad rap is what he's saying.
> 
> .


I understand.....and unless people or dogs are eating a large quantity of only beef, I really don't think it is a problem. Moderation and variation is the key in everything (in my opinion) and it sounds like your dogs are getting a variety of proteins.

Now, if you were a person eating a prime rib dinner every night and giving one to your dog then I might be concerned :biggrin:

Maybe someone else has some actual data to support the information?


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## Doc (Jan 17, 2009)

OK, until all this is settled ... please ship all red meat to me. I'll eat grass and grain fed. :biggrin:


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## MollyWoppy (Mar 19, 2010)

I know that back in NZ, all the beef is grass fed. And, there are still plenty of heart attacks, you believe me! (No idea how many, if any dogs drop dead from the big one though).


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

chowder....i want some data, too....

i am not a believer that red meat is bad....at all.

red blood cells and bone marrow need red meat...it's one of our biggest nutrients....
it's the comment about the corn and the grass...that bothers me.

didn't we grow up on corn fed beef?

doc....you'll just deep fry it and put sawdust gravy on it. 

molly.....all kidding aside, that's nice to know? LOL


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## RawFedDogs (Jun 16, 2008)

magicre said:


> so what is the risk of high cholesterol for dogs, considering red meat is preferred over other proteins?


I don't think cholesterol is a problem for dogs. With humans it takes 30 or 40 years of poor eating to cause significant high colestrol usually. Dogs just don't live that long.

At least thats my story and I'm sticking to it. :smile:


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

RawFedDogs said:


> I don't think cholesterol is a problem for dogs. With humans it takes 30 or 40 years of poor eating to cause significant high colestrol usually. Dogs just don't live that long.
> 
> At least thats my story and I'm sticking to it. :smile:


i didn't think so either...but what he says about grain fed is not off the wall.

corn is a starch. starches are the bane of our existence, not red meat...

so i guess what he's saying is that because most beef is finished off with grain, then we are at risk....because grain is the culprit.

course, if that is true and chicken is allegedly our salvation, what are they being fed?


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## Doc (Jan 17, 2009)

I'll fry any of it in my cast iron skillet and pour SAWMILL (not sawdust) gravey over it and serve it over two cathead biskits! Along with some 'tater cakes and hop-n-john.:smile:


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

Doc said:


> SAWMILL (not sawdust) gravey:smile:


potato/ potahto! :biggrin:


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## Guest (Aug 29, 2010)

The beef premade raw formula I'm currently offering my dogs is all grass-fed:

Bravo! Products - Original Formula - Beef

I like Bravo Raw Diet because it's made here in Connecticut and is widely available to me. Never have any problems getting it.


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

LabbieMama said:


> The beef premade raw formula I'm currently offering my dogs is all grass-fed:
> 
> Bravo! Products - Original Formula - Beef
> 
> I like Bravo Raw Diet because it's made here in Connecticut and is widely available to me. Never have any problems getting it.


i'm not saying that bravo does this, but i learned the hard way that grass fed doesn't mean grass finished...many farmers feed grain at the end to fatten up the cow, so they can make more money at time of sale for slaughter.

there is a person who gets us beef for our co op and she raises and shows swiss mountain dogs...she will ONLY feed grass fed/grass finished beef, so she searches high and low for the farmer/rancher who does that...

i tasted it, actually...it tastes different than the beef i buy at the store...

i just never thought about grain fed beef causing a cholesterol problem....

but it would make sense that, at least, in humans it might....

then again...chickens, which we're supposed to eat all day and all night...aren't they fed grains?

so i don't get why this butcher said that to me....and that too much grain fed beef would give my dogs high cholesterol....and also give me high cholesterol...


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## whiteleo (Sep 7, 2008)

well here is a scenario for you, when we use to feed horses grain, cob grain to be exact corn oats and barley with mollasses, it use to make some some horse hot. Sugar being broken down into carbs, could that have anything to do with it.


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

whiteleo said:


> well here is a scenario for you, when we use to feed horses grain, cob grain to be exact corn oats and barley with mollasses, it use to make some some horse hot. Sugar being broken down into carbs, could that have anything to do with it.


i can only speak for humans, but that is the newest thinking.....which seems to have spilled over to animals, too...

that we are not meant to consume grain....nor are dogs....so i can only presume that horses aren't supposed to either....

carbs are what raise cholesterol (include starchy carbs like corn and yams, potatoes, especially, and sugary carbs, like carrots)

the american diabetic association is fighting this notion, but the science is starting to prove it out...

now, take it one step further....the animal that eats the very things that hurt humans and dogs.....will that animal hurt humans and dogs because it's being fed grain?


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## RawFedDogs (Jun 16, 2008)

magicre said:


> i'm not saying that bravo does this, but i learned the hard way that grass fed doesn't mean grass finished...many farmers feed grain at the end to fatten up the cow, so they can make more money at time of sale for slaughter.


Here is the way I THINK it operates around here. Farmers raise their cattle in pastures. There are zillions of acres pasture land around here with grazing cattle in them. Once the farmer has the cow to a point that it has grown about as much as it will and they have gotten a calf or two out of the cow, it is taken to the "sale" which is an auction. Around here the auction barn is open every Monday.

All the cows that arive at the auction are grass fed beef and have never been fed anything else. They are bought at the auction by the feed lot owners who take these cows and cowd them together in small pens and feed them nothing but grain. I don't know for how long. 

Then the feed lot cows are sold to the slaughter houses who kill and dress the cows for the grocery stores. I'm not 100% sure if the feed lot and slaughter houses are owned by the same people. 

I do know that the cows that go to the auction are grass fed only and can be 2 or 3 or 4 years old.


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

i agree with that scenario....because in driving cross country, there is the one border thing going on...and the brand is what defines ownership, so many cattle graze freely and are probably only protected during the winter...or they've been slaughtered by then....i figure it's a seasonal thing..

so, the grain....would only occur for a little while....but it does change the taste of the beef....

having recently had grass fed/grass finished beef vs. the prime rib eye we just bought on sale (man, is THAT tasty)....there is a huge difference in taste...

and, if there is a difference in taste.....would that little amount of grain make that much of a difference?

in human terms...if i live a hundred years and only eat grain for two months, why would i have high cholesterol....makes no sense what this butcher says..

BECAUSE --

what are chickens fed? grain, right?

and the AMA and the ADA and all of the nutritionists in the world are encouraging us to eat chicken and avoid saturated fat, which i disagree with....to begin with...we need red meat. we are, after all, carnivores....

so, i think i'll just chalk this butcher up to wanting me to buy grass fed/grass finished beef and erase it....from my memory banks.


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## sassymaxmom (Dec 7, 2008)

Beef, grass-fed, ground, raw 
Nutrition Facts and Analysis for Beef, grass-fed, ground, raw
One ounce contains
Omega-3 fatty acids 24.6mg
Omega-6 fatty acids 120mg
Cholesterol 19 mg

Beef, ground, 85% lean meat / 15% fat, raw
[same calories as the grass fed beef]
Nutrition Facts and Analysis for Beef, ground, 85% lean meat / 15% fat, raw [hamburger]
One ounce contains
Omega-3 fatty acids 11.8 mg
Omega-6 fatty acids 99.1 mg
Cholesterol 17.4mg

Game meat, deer, ground, raw [venison]
Nutrition Facts and Analysis for Game meat, deer, ground, raw [venison]
One ounce contains
Omega-3 fatty acids 29.1mg
Omega-6 fatty acids 63.0mg
Cholesterol 22.4mg

Might be a good idea to look at numbers here. I would certainly prefer to feed venison rather than beef and I would prefer to feed grass fed beef than grain fed but any of these is pretty good stuff.

Chicken, broilers or fryers, meat and skin, raw
Nutrition Facts and Analysis for Chicken, broilers or fryers, meat and skin, raw
One ounce contains
Omega-3 fatty acids 53.2mg
Omega-6 fatty acids 807mg
Cholesterol 21mg

I care more about the Omega 3:6 ration than the cholesterol!

Omega 3:6 ratio
Venison 1:2.2
Grass fed beef 1:4.9
Grain fed beef 1:8.4 
Chicken 1:15

I wonder if the high O6 and cholesterol in chicken has to do with the grain feeding. Chickens need animal protein so the grain and soy they are stuffed with is even less appropriate than it is for cattle.


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## chowder (Sep 7, 2008)

sassymaxmom said:


> I wonder if the high O6 and cholesterol in chicken has to do with the grain feeding. Chickens need animal protein so the grain and soy they are stuffed with is even less appropriate than it is for cattle.


That was really interesting. I know you can buy eggs from cage free chickens because I do it all the time and they say that they have less cholesteral in them, but has anyone ever heard of buying 'free range' chickens themselves? Do they actually sell them in stores? 

We have actually checked into getting 'free range' chickens when we buy our land and using them to keep the land free of bugs so in essence, they will be fed entirely on animal protein (bug protein!). There are specific breeds that are specialists in bug eating that my husband has picked out. I really hadn't planned on eating them though, just getting the eggs. I can't picture myself killing and plucking chickens, although my grandma was a pro at it.


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

wow...that's beautiful research..

to further complicate this...now that we're digressing...and i do so love the process....

here is an article about omega 6.....but in a nutshell, whilst we cannot get enough omega 3 fatty acids....we CAN over do it on the omega 6.

in other words....

The Good and Bad of Omega 6 Fatty Acids

there's no win win LOL


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

sassymaxmom said:


> I wonder if the high O6 and cholesterol in chicken has to do with the grain feeding. Chickens need animal protein so the grain and soy they are stuffed with is even less appropriate than it is for cattle.


yep. and i just posted the article, so chicken may not be the be all end all it's supposed to be for humans.

red meat and fish. yay.


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## sassymaxmom (Dec 7, 2008)

Sorry about the Omega thing. Just goes along with cholesterol in my head I guess.

What kind of meat does the butcher think dogs should eat then? I though venison was IT for raw fed dogs and then I see it actually has more cholesterol than beef.

What I have read is that dogs with particular diseases will have elevated cholesterol readings but it doesn't clog arteries like it does in humans.


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

sassymaxmom said:


> Sorry about the Omega thing. Just goes along with cholesterol in my head I guess.
> 
> What kind of meat does the butcher think dogs should eat then? I though venison was IT for raw fed dogs and then I see it actually has more cholesterol than beef.
> 
> What I have read is that dogs with particular diseases will have elevated cholesterol readings but it doesn't clog arteries like it does in humans.


no sorry necessary...i think your research is excellent.....and in actuality....it just raises the question about chicken being the better choice for people...when in reality, it has all that omega 6 and not so much nutrients for red blood cells and bone marrow....

and the cholesterol .....i think it's awesome that you've uncovered that little tidbit. makes me feel a whole lot better about eating beef.

the butcher said dogs should eat grass fed/grass finished....and humans, too.


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## RawFedDogs (Jun 16, 2008)

Question for re: Years ago I was on the Atkins diet of mostly meat and very few carbs. In his book, Atkins said that eating cholesterol had nothing to do with the colesterol in your blood. Eating a lot of it did not increase the blood levels of colesterol. He said that colesterol levels were controled by genetics. I was young enough at the time that I wasn't concerned about colesterol. What do you think about Atkin's statement?


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

RawFedDogs said:


> Question for re: Years ago I was on the Atkins diet of mostly meat and very few carbs. In his book, Atkins said that eating cholesterol had nothing to do with the colesterol in your blood. Eating a lot of it did not increase the blood levels of colesterol. He said that colesterol levels were controled by genetics. I was young enough at the time that I wasn't concerned about colesterol. What do you think about Atkin's statement?


atkins simplifed a statement, but the gist is correct. except for the genetics.

diet plays a role, too.....

and i agree with much of atkins' ideas, just not his induction.

high cholesterol is not just about genetics..

it's about starchy carbs...not veggies, except for starchy veggies, such as peas and corn....potatoes...etc..

grains, too.

i can give you the long version about cholesterol in private, but, basically,

if people cut out grains, peas, corn, yams, potatoes, etc...their cholesterol would normalise...

if high cholesterol is genetic, cutting out those foods will help, although one might need a little help from a friend...

protein is not the enemy.


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## RawFedDogs (Jun 16, 2008)

Don't be too hard on Dr. Atkins. I am remembering this from 35 years ago. I could be a little off on some of those memories. :smile:


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

RawFedDogs said:


> Don't be too hard on Dr. Atkins. I am remembering this from 35 years ago. I could be a little off on some of those memories. :smile:


i think dr. atkins brought to the forefront the notion that protein is what humans need.

not sure, but i believe barry sears with the zone diet came before atkins, but they were both popular around the same time...

i believe much of what dr. atkins has said.....what i didn't care for was the marketing...but one has to market in order to get sales..

you know i believe in relationship between diet and health...and atkins and sears were very adamant about eating steak and a salad....leave the potatoe in the field...

not only won't i argue with it, i believe it to be true.

so atkins is okay in my book, but his induction was responsible for the loss of plenty of gallbladders LOL....especially since most of his audience over ate proteins such as cream cheese and bacon and that really wasn't his message at all...


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## ubershann (Jul 29, 2010)

magicre said:


> then again...chickens, which we're supposed to eat all day and all night...aren't they fed grains?


My biggest problem with chicken (and this goes for myself as well) is that they are given more hormones and chemicals than the other animals. When I eat chicken I get it from my "fancy" grocery store where I know it's not given that crap. If I won't put that stuff in me I don't really want it going in my dogs either


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

ubershann said:


> My biggest problem with chicken (and this goes for myself as well) is that they are given more hormones and chemicals than the other animals. When I eat chicken I get it from my "fancy" grocery store where I know it's not given that crap. If I won't put that stuff in me I don't really want it going in my dogs either


i think it's been legislated or fda'd or something that it must say there are hormones or broth or antibiotics....that's how we know if chickens are enhanced....they'll say 4% or 10% fluid and they list the amount of sodium...

i think the entire protein industry suffers from a 'who cares what they eat, as long as we make huge profits'....problem.


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## ubershann (Jul 29, 2010)

sassymaxmom said:


> though venison was IT for raw fed dogs and then I see it actually has more cholesterol than beef.


There are different types of cholesterol. Venison is healthier for the heart.


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## ubershann (Jul 29, 2010)

magicre said:


> i think it's been legislated or fda'd or something that it must say there are hormones or broth or antibiotics....that's how we know if chickens are enhanced....they'll say 4% or 10% fluid and they list the amount of sodium...


Most chicken, unless you get the really spendy free-range organic chicken, is highly altered. When you see the size of "real" chickens as opposed to the size of altered chickens it's amazing. I don't drink a lot of milk but I do drink lattes and I feel sick at the thought of using anything other than fully organic milk too. It's just disgusting what they put in animals, and I certainly don't want any of that stuff in me. Yuck! I do just fine fattening myself up :wink: lol!


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

ubershann said:


> There are different types of cholesterol. Venison is healthier for the heart.


agreed and it's not the cholesterol in meat that hurts people...
or dogs...

it's trans fat and uber quantities saturated fat....

so, it's fine to eat a steak...but does it have to be a 20 oz porterhouse in one sitting?

also, in my humble opinion....it's starches that raise the amound of circulating cholesterol in blood, not beef...

i was just posing the question about grain finished beef.....and what that butcher said.

but it occurs to me that what he said about grain fed doesn't make any sense....since most food sources are grain fed or finished.


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## 3RingCircus (May 24, 2010)

magicre said:


> i can only speak for humans, but that is the newest thinking.....which seems to have spilled over to animals, too...
> 
> that we are not meant to consume grain....nor are dogs....so i can only presume that horses aren't supposed to either....
> 
> ...


I'd fight that notion too along with the ADA. I was a lacto-ovo-vegetarian for about 10 years and had the best cholesterol level. I still have one and I'm not a lacto-ovo-vegetarian any more. I don't eat that much red meat, probably once every two weeks. I eat plenty of whole grains and starchy carbs are my mainstay in the winter time. Although, I've mostly stayed away from corn and potatoes. That stems from a lesson a farmer once taught me. He said look at the pigs and what I feed them to fatten them - corn. It basically turns into sugar in the body and fast. He said potatoes are the same way. They raised corn, acres of it, and never ate it. I never saw them eat a potato as well.


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## chowder (Sep 7, 2008)

ubershann said:


> My biggest problem with chicken (and this goes for myself as well) is that they are given more hormones and chemicals than the other animals. When I eat chicken I get it from my "fancy" grocery store where I know it's not given that crap. If I won't put that stuff in me I don't really want it going in my dogs either


Chickens, turkeys, and pigs are not allowed to be given hormones in the US. 

From the FDA:

"NO HORMONES (pork or poultry): 
Hormones are not allowed in raising hogs or poultry. Therefore, the claim "no hormones added" cannot be used on the labels of pork or poultry unless it is followed by a statement that says "Federal regulations prohibit the use of hormones."

Meat and Poultry Labeling Terms

They are allowed to be given antibiotics but legislation has been proposed to limit the use of antibiotics to Medical Treatment:

(The Preservation of Antibiotics for Medical Treatment Act, a proposed law that would restrict veterinary use of antibiotics that are important to human health, including cephalosporins.
Supporters of the proposed legislation include the American Medical Association, the American Public Health Association, and the Infectious Diseases Society of America. The AVMA does not support the legislation.)


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

3RingCircus said:


> I'd fight that notion too along with the ADA. I was a lacto-ovo-vegetarian for about 10 years and had the best cholesterol level. I still have one and I'm not a lacto-ovo-vegetarian any more. I don't eat that much red meat, probably once every two weeks. I eat plenty of whole grains and starchy carbs are my mainstay in the winter time. Although, I've mostly stayed away from corn and potatoes. That stems from a lesson a farmer once taught me. He said look at the pigs and what I feed them to fatten them - corn. It basically turns into sugar in the body and fast. He said potatoes are the same way. They raised corn, acres of it, and never ate it. I never saw them eat a potato as well.


there is also the possibility that you have super genetics, too.....not everyone does.

there are so many theories going around.....i think we have to believe what makes sense to us.....and then follow through with it....

for me, i have evolved into a non starch eater....my cholesterol has always been fine and i am a meat eater...my cholesterol came down, however, to the new standards, which i believe were put into place so pharmaceuticals could sell more cholesterol drugs, but that's a conspiracy for another day...

when i stopped eating potatoes, yams, corn, peas, etc....yet continued to eat red meat...my cholesterol came down....not that it was out of sight in the first place, but my total and my hdl and ldl were in normal ranges.

it's a matter of what makes sense to the individual...my research has led me away from grains and starches and toward, i guess, the caveman way of eating....which includes meat and veggies, a little bit of fruit....
and i'll leave the yams and potatoes and whole grains to those who believe they are a good thing....


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## ubershann (Jul 29, 2010)

magicre said:


> it's trans fat and uber quantities saturated fat....
> 
> so, it's fine to eat a steak...but does it have to be a 20 oz porterhouse in one sitting?


Yes, saturated fat is bad! That's the stuff that clogs arteries. It's because of the molecular makeup. Because it is in a string, rather than kinked like unsaturated fat, it can pile up, causing blockages. Bad, bad, bad!

And I agree, there is no reason to be eating a 20 oz porterhouse in one sitting! The portions we are used to in this country are outrageous. When I lived overseas at first I was shocked at how small portions were, then I realized that's what healthy portions are. Because of the capitalism here restaurants try to outdo each other, serving bigger amounts. Then we get used to those amounts and think they are normal and fix those same portions at home. Yuck, yuck, yuck!


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

ubershann said:


> Yes, saturated fat is bad! That's the stuff that clogs arteries. It's because of the molecular makeup. Because it is in a string, rather than kinked like unsaturated fat, it can pile up, causing blockages. Bad, bad, bad!
> 
> And I agree, there is no reason to be eating a 20 oz porterhouse in one sitting! The portions we are used to in this country are outrageous. When I lived overseas at first I was shocked at how small portions were, then I realized that's what healthy portions are. Because of the capitalism here restaurants try to outdo each other, serving bigger amounts. Then we get used to those amounts and think they are normal and fix those same portions at home. Yuck, yuck, yuck!


i think what i'm trying to say is that saturated fat is getting a bad rap BECAUSE of the quantities eaten...

people in europe, at least in the countries i've been to, eat meat regularly, but their portion sizes are way smaller than what we get here...plus, until recently, they weren't gorging on micky d crap...

there is saturated fat in many things we eat.....and in moderation, should not be the culprit raising cholesterol....

take that 20 oz porterhouse and divvy it up over a few weeks LOL

i believe that red meat is essential...but that's where my research has taken me.....i also believe that moderation is key and that includes ice cream


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