# kidney readings



## Doc (Jan 17, 2009)

Can anyone give me BUN and Creatinine readings for a raw fed dog? I know they are higher than kibble fed dogs but I do not know the ranges. I've got a conference with a Science Diet type vet tomorrow and need some numbers! Thanks


----------



## DaneMama (Jun 27, 2008)

Actually they aren't different. Kidney values (as well as all other values) on raw fed dogs are actually normal to low compared to high protein kibble fed dogs. I do regular blood work on all my dogs, even when they were on grain free, high protein kibble and their kidney values were always high (which makes me skeptical that high protein, grain free kibbles are actually ideal...). Now on raw they have normal kidney values all around, and they are compared to the normal values for all dogs. I did blood work about 7 months ago on Bailey (after her accident) and just now to recheck it all. Below are the pictures of her reports (sorry its a bit cut off). From what you can see all values are normal, if not on the low end of normal. NOTE: Her fecal test came back negative for any parasites or bugs too :wink:

March 2010










November 5 2010




















Hope this helps!


----------



## Doc (Jan 17, 2009)

So when talking about kidney issues, the creatinine levels are more important than the BUN levels?


----------



## RawFedDogs (Jun 16, 2008)

None of my dogs levels changed at all when put on raw. They are all well within the normal range even after years on PMR.


----------



## DaneMama (Jun 27, 2008)

Doc said:


> So when talking about kidney issues, the creatinine levels are more important than the BUN levels?


Creatinine levels are a more specific value that can indicate kidney disease but there are several other reasons why this value can be elevated (dehydration and obstructed urination). BUN (blood urea nitrogen) can be indicative of kidney disease but can also be elevated for other reasons (high protein diet, muscle damage, use of corticosteriods, dehydration, urinary obstruction), but this value can be elevated more easily than the creatinine leves. While both of these values are important to kidney function, you must look at the whole picture of the animal. Is the urine concentrated? Is the animal hydrated? What diet is the dog on? Any trauma?


----------



## cprcheetah (Jul 14, 2010)

Issues in Nutrition
• Higher packed cell volume (hematocrit) in all raw diet fed groups (range of 51.0 ± 6.6 – 53.5 ± 5.6 %) versus cereal-based kibble (47.6 ± 6.1 %).
• Higher blood urea nitrogen (BUN) in all raw diet fed groups (range of 18.8 ± 6.9 – 22.0 ± 8.7 mg/dL) versus cereal-based kibble (15.5 ± 4.7 mg/dL).
• Higher serum creatinine in the Volhard raw diet group only (1.20 ± 0.34 mg/dL) versus cereal-based kibble (1.07 ± 0.28 mg/dL).


----------



## sassymaxmom (Dec 7, 2008)

And note that the urine was concentrated and BUN was on the high side in the November labs! Bit of dehydration going on there. I read that just panting can dehydrate a dog in the course of a vet visit.

Wow, nice numbers. 

Here is information from Dr. Dodds' study.
http://www.mountaindogfood.com/RawHelp/Raw_Food_Study.pdf


----------



## DaneMama (Jun 27, 2008)

sassymaxmom said:


> And note that the urine was concentrated and BUN was on the high side in the November labs! Bit of dehydration going on there. I read that just panting can dehydrate a dog in the course of a vet visit.
> 
> Wow, nice numbers.


BUN on the November lab was actually lower than the first set done (right over the halfway point of normal range) while the March lab report showed the high end of normal (which may be attributed to her accident and the associated muscle damage from that AND the fact that it was towards the late afternoon and Bailey hardly drinks water throughout the day from sleeping- ie dehydration). Both sets of values are actually fantastic taking into consideration the whole context in which they were taken.


----------



## AHARM (Mar 28, 2010)

This thread was very informative to me. One of my biggest hestitations when starting raw was the fact that I was concerned of the long term affects the raw diet could have on the kidney/liver/bloodwork etc...

thanks!


----------



## MollyWoppy (Mar 19, 2010)

Agreed, this is a great reference post as I've seen many questions raised out there about the long term effects of raw feeding. Maybe it should be stickied?


----------



## RawFedDogs (Jun 16, 2008)

MollyWoppy said:


> Agreed, this is a great reference post as I've seen many questions raised out there about the long term effects of raw feeding. Maybe it should be stickied?


If anyone stops and thinks about it, they would have no worries. Canines have been eating a PMR diet for a million years and have thrived. Kibble has only been around for the last 50 years or so. Kibble is the new kid on the block. The fad diet if you will. Why not question the long term effects of feeding kibble with all its preservatives, inapproptiate ingredients and being so highly processed?

Remember the "normal" blood values are based on kibble fed dogs. If a raw fed dog is a little different, wouldn't the raw fed readings be the most ideal?

The dog food industry has us so brainwashed that we have been convinced that we don't have enough knowledge to properly feed our dogs and they will die an early death if we don't let them determine the proper diet. Baloney. If we can feed our families good fresh whole foods properly then we can feed our dogs good fresh whole foods.


----------



## DaneMama (Jun 27, 2008)

Bill, I agree with what you're saying 100%...the logic is there. But some people just need to see the values to see that raw is for sure an ideal diet. I guess you could consider it research. So I agree that it should be stickied so people can see first hand the internal long term effects. Hey, if it helps reassure people to make the switch then what's the harm?

I urge anyone who feeds raw that has had blood work done to please post up pictures of the results here!!!! Lets make this our own "mini study" based on case studies. Before and after blood work results would also be awesome!!!


----------



## Doc (Jan 17, 2009)

The reason for my initial question is this: A German shepherd pup - 11 months old - goes to the vet due to lethargic actions. Vet does blood work and the BUN and Creatinine levels are off the scale. Owner panics, vets talks about kidney failure and puts the pup on IVs. Pup hates IV and pulls it out. More blood samples run and levels are lower. Vet administers more IV but this rigs them so the pup can't pull them out. More blood work, levels are lower. 49 hours of IV fluids and IVs are removed. Blood taken after 8-10 hours and only slightly higher. Pup is eating, very energetic, acting back to normal. Vet wants to run a urine test to rule out any infection that wasn't detected in his lab. He absolutely is anti-raw diet - told owner that raw will cause all kinds of problems and cause blockage (undigested bone). Owner calls me because I am the breeder and the one who put the dog on a raw diet with their permission.

Now, in the next few minutes, the vet is suppose to call me with the latest lab results. Besides calling him a quack, I wanted some numbers - I think it is the only thing he will understand - about BUN and Creatinine levels. The last numbers I have for the pup are BUN 103 (off the scale) and Creatinine 3.5 (moderately high). I am hoping to get the following readings BUN 6-32 and Creatinine 2-2.5. Wish me luck with the vet and send any good vibes you have to Yankee - an 11 month old German shepherd that has the heart of a lion. Thanks


----------



## MollyWoppy (Mar 19, 2010)

I can't offer you any advice, but I do want to wish both you and pup Yankee the best of luck. (cool name by the way). The vet sounds like mine, very anti-raw for all the normal reasons you get. The blood panel played right into Yankee's vet's hands unfortunately. Please do let us know how it goes.


----------



## cast71 (Sep 16, 2010)

danemama08 said:


> I do regular blood work on all my dogs, even when they were on grain free, high protein kibble and their kidney values were always high (which makes me skeptical that high protein, grain free kibbles are actually ideal...).


Hi, I'm not trying to hijack this thread, I was very interested in your test results with a grain free diet. If it's ok to ask here, I have some questions. If you think I should start another topic in the dry and canned section let me know. Thanks in advance.


----------



## Doc (Jan 17, 2009)

BUN level is down to 83 from 103. The vet didn't have a Creatinine level. The vet wants to call it "familial kidney disease" which means it is breed related. (In other words, he doesn't know what is causing it). It doesn't surprise me. I'm calling caninekidneyhealth.com in KY.

Some vets .......??????


----------



## DaneMama (Jun 27, 2008)

cast71 said:


> Hi, I'm not trying to hijack this thread, I was very interested in your test results with a grain free diet. If it's ok to ask here, I have some questions. If you think I should start another topic in the dry and canned section let me know. Thanks in advance.


I knew someone would ask to see them! I have to get them from work and I will tomorrow. I don't think it's necessary to start a new thread, I doubt anyone who feeds raw or kibble will be offended. Ask away :wink:



Doc said:


> BUN level is down to 83 from 103. The vet didn't have a Creatinine level. The vet wants to call it "familial kidney disease" which means it is breed related. (In other words, he doesn't know what is causing it). It doesn't surprise me. I'm calling caninekidneyhealth.com in KY.
> 
> Some vets .......??????


Well it may just be a congenital or genetic defect. Its a possibility at this point because a dog this young going into acute kidney failure (most likely because of such high numbers). Could it be tick borne? Maybe. Could it be autoimmune? Sure. It'll take a lot more tests to find out. Also more background info on the dog would be most helpful. Diagnostics on situations like this is very difficult and frustrating sometimes. I wouldn't necessarily be upset with the vet at this point, just get a second opinion.

ETA: did a little researching and found that GSDs are prone to renal cortical hypoplasia which is genetic and is where the kidneys do not form/ grow correctly, often times being very small. Has an ultrasound been preformed on this dog to rule this out? If not I highly suggest it...


----------



## cast71 (Sep 16, 2010)

danemama08 said:


> I knew someone would ask to see them! I have to get them from work and I will tomorrow.


Thanks and sorry to make you do extra work. You don't have to post them anyway, I'll take your word on it:smile: I was just wondering what grainfree you were feeding. Were you feeding the higher protein formulas like Orijen, evo, instinct..... Or was it the mid to lower range ones like acana, TOTW, canidae, wellness core, before grain? I also wanted to know what's your opinion on long term effect on elevated kidney levels? I'm guessing it's putting more wear and tear on the kidney and probably other organs. Alot more processing and never giving them a chance to rest. I agree with RFD, that the ideal test results would be raw. Since it was around way before kibble, that is logically what a kibble feeder should shoot for. It shouldn't be the other way around.


----------



## DaneMama (Jun 27, 2008)

No worries at all. I was going to post them anyhow. I was feeding EVO at the time when I did do kibble. Personally I don't really know what to think about chronically elevated kidney values. A high protein diet isn't supposed to harm the kidneys but I honestly believe that these grain free foods are just simply too high in protein. Maybe soak high protein kibble in warm water to dilute the protein down a bit to emulate a raw diet a bit more closely.


----------



## Doc (Jan 17, 2009)

Thanks for the advice Natalie. 

The dam of the pup is from our breeding stock that goes back 35 years - no kidney issues with her or any of her siblings or their offspring or her relatives. The sire is from solid bloodlines also - no known issues there. The pup has 29 brothers and sisters - same dam and sire - with no reported kidney problems. His litter mate sister lives 5 doors down from me and is healthy. I'm not saying it isn't possible but I feel the odds are slight knowing this kind of history.

Since I am the breeder and do not own the pup, I can not get any information from the vet. He plans to do an ultrasound today - 9 days after being admitted to the office. I have not heard of any urine test or urine specific gravity test being done. Nor has an urine culture been done that I know of. I can only hope those were done when the pup first got there.

Anyway, once I figure out exactly what the issue is, corrective measures will be followed. The pup is scheduled to see a kidney specialist tomorrow morning at 9:00 a.m.


----------



## cast71 (Sep 16, 2010)

I think I read on this site that a raw diet is about 26% protein, comparable to the grain inclusive kibble levels??? If that's right, it doesn't make sense feeding a kibble that has 40% range protein levels. I really don't think it matters about grain free and grain kibbles, because usually there replacing the grains with potatoes. I'm thinking that the 26-34% range protein kibbles, are better for a dog's digestive system. I heard some dogs can't handle the high protein grain free's and do fine on the lower grainfree's. Kind of makes sense. Maybe the higher ones are really overloading the digestive system. The funny thing is, most people bash the TOTW fish formula for having low protein numbers, but my dog does the best on that formula.


----------



## sassymaxmom (Dec 7, 2008)

That is 25% protein in wet meats. Kibble is really dry, you must take out the moisture to compare them properly.

If I gave Max 150 grams of Orijen Regional Red he would get 38+19=57 grams of protein. If I give Max this raw meal which weighs 320 grams Nutrition Facts and Analysis for mackerelchickenfootporkbeef I am giving him 59 grams of protein. That raw meal has 216 grams of water while the kibble has 15 grams of water. The raw has 104 grams dry weight and the kibble has 135 grams dry weight.

I would float high protein kibble though to try to replace the natural water as the dog eats.


----------



## DaneMama (Jun 27, 2008)

Doc- I'm glad to hear that further diagnostics are being done with this pup. I hope that you'll keep us all updated on the progress. I highly, highly doubt it was the raw diet to blame in this case. What kind of raw diet was this pup on?

Cast71- I agree with you. Like I said earlier, if you water down the grain free kibbles the protein levels will be closer to the low to mid twenty percentages. I wholeheartedly believe that kibble in any form is just not ideal really. Sure dogs can do great on these diets but that doesn't mean they are ideal in the long term. I think people should be asking what the long term effects from feeding kibble are and not what they are from feeding raw to be honest.


----------



## Doc (Jan 17, 2009)

danemama08 said:


> Doc- I'm glad to hear that further diagnostics are being done with this pup. I hope that you'll keep us all updated on the progress. I highly, highly doubt it was the raw diet to blame in this case. What kind of raw diet was this pup on?
> 
> Cast71- I agree with you. Like I said earlier, if you water down the grain free kibbles the protein levels will be closer to the low to mid twenty percentages. I wholeheartedly believe that kibble in any form is just not ideal really. Sure dogs can do great on these diets but that doesn't mean they are ideal in the long term. I think people should be asking what the long term effects from feeding kibble are and not what they are from feeding raw to be honest.


RMBs of course .... LOL


----------



## DaneMama (Jun 27, 2008)

Doc said:


> RMBs of course .... LOL


That's what I thought...just clarifying :wink:


----------



## Doc (Jan 17, 2009)

I don't want Jon ripping me a new one:smile: roflmao


----------



## cast71 (Sep 16, 2010)

sassymaxmom said:


> I would float high protein kibble though to try to replace the natural water as the dog eats.


What do you mean by float? 



danemama08 said:


> if you water down the grain free kibbles the protein levels will be closer to the low to mid twenty percentages.


Do you mean just add water to the kibble? How does adding water lower the protein levels? Most dogs drink water right after they eat kibble. Wouldn't that have the same effect as mixing it in? Also you lose the crunching action by adding water, therefore losing the benefit of the crunching action cleaning the dogs teeth. Yeah right ahahahahaha Had to throw a joke in there:biggrin:


----------



## sassymaxmom (Dec 7, 2008)

If the dog drinks enough water. Big if in Sassy's case. Not a water drinker that dog.


----------



## RawFedDogs (Jun 16, 2008)

cast71 said:


> Do you mean just add water to the kibble? How does adding water lower the protein levels?


We are talking about 2 different things here. I think that the VOLUME of protein is more important than percentage. We never talk about volume. In this case, if you add water to kibble, it lowers the PERCENTAGE of protein in that meal but it doesn't have any effect on volume of protein. If the dry kibble has 4oz of protein, adding water won't change that number.


----------



## DaneMama (Jun 27, 2008)

But soaking kibble in water makes it have more volume and therefore dogs won't eat quite as much actual kibble as if they had a full bowl of dry.


----------

