# EVO Red Meat - Vomiting



## LoveWarrior (Apr 14, 2010)

About a year ago, I switched both of my dogs (chihuahua mix (age 14) and dachshund mix (age 2)) to EVO Red Meat. I recently bought a new bag and ever since then both of them have been vomiting quite a bit. I thought that the dogs may be eating pecans that are still in the yard from last fall which caused them to vomit, but every time they go out to do their duty I have watched them closely to make sure they do not eat anything outside .... and they are still vomiting.

I know EVO Red Meat is quite rich, but they have not had this problem before. Has anyone else been experiencing this with their dogs? What is a good blander food (especially for my older chihuahua)?

Thanks!


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## whiteleo (Sep 7, 2008)

How is their poo? Where are you from and how has the weather been lately? Just some basic questions to get more of an idea to see if it could be from an extreme weather change or if there is something else going on in there system.


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## LoveWarrior (Apr 14, 2010)

Their poo seems to be fine. We're in Austin, Texas and the weather has been in the 70's and picture perfect. Quite a bit of tree pollen in the air, but my dogs are not scratching like they were on other dog foods. I like EVO, and I want to buy my dogs whatever dog food is best, but I need to figure out waht has changed that has caused them to vomit. And, the only thing that has changed is a new bag of food .. and after they eat, they vomit.


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## whiteleo (Sep 7, 2008)

I can't seem to find any results for problems with the food, How long has it been since you have had a fecal exam on your dogs? Have you increased their amount of kibble at all or anything that has changed at all besides the new bag of food. You could always take back the bag and tell the store exactly what is happening but I do suggest a fecal exam.


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## LoveWarrior (Apr 14, 2010)

OK, will do. Thanks. I also think I'm going to mix in either some EVO Turkey and Chicken or Origen Adult into the food to reduce the richness of the EVO Red Meat and see if anything changes. Any other recommendations on food is always appreciated.


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## whiteleo (Sep 7, 2008)

Thats a good idea, but you might want to do a couple days of boiled chicken and rice to settle their stomachs first and then start off with a slow switch to some added chicken/turkey in the evo red meat kibble


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## RCTRIPLEFRESH5 (Feb 11, 2010)

evo red meat recently changed their ingridents. it has potatoes as the third ingridient.
id say theymight have an allergy to potatoes,but yo usaid they did fine on the food before? allergies are developed though, so they may have developed it from eating the food for long periods of time also!

id sy give the herring evo a shot, its a lot mroe pricey but yo usaid you wanna fveeed them the ebst, and that looks the ebst.

red meat ingridents-
Beef, Lamb Meal, Potatoes, Egg, Sunflower Oil, Buffalo, Lamb, Venison, Beef Cartilage, Herring Oil, Natural Flavors, Apples, Carrots, Tomatoes, Alfalfa Sprouts, Garlic, Cottage Cheese, Potassium Chloride, Vitamins/Minerals, Ascorbic Acid, Dried Chicory Root, Direct-Fed Microbials, Vitamin E Supplement, Lecithin, Rosemary Extract.


evo herring-
Herring, salmon meal, herring meal, peas, salmon, eggs, herring oil, pea fiber, sunflower oil, natural flavor, apples, carrots, cottage cheese, dried chicory root, glucosamine hydrochloride, chondroitin sulfate, Minerals (Zinc proteinate, iron proteinate, copper proteinate, manganese proteinate, calcium iodate), Vitamins (Vitamin E supplement, betaine hydrochloride, niacin supplement, thiamine mononitrate, calcium pantothenate, Vitamin A supplement, Vitamin D3 supplement, biotin, riboflavin supplement, beta carotene, Vitamin B12 supplement, pyridoxine hydrochloride, phylloquinone, folic acid), Direct-fed Microbials (Dried Lactobacillus acidophilus fermentation product, Dried Enterrococcus faecium fermentation product).


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## wags (Jan 31, 2009)

I have 4 bags of EVO right now. The red meat the small and large kibble chciken turkey and the weight management. My dogs have been eating this wow for the past I want to say 3 weeks but it could be longer I cant remmember but anyway I have not been experiencing any of the problems like you have said at all. They were a bit gassy (LOL) at first but that has subsided! I would take the food back maybe try wellness core. My dogs did great on wellness core! And with EVO its easy to overfeed them as well. I never feed the amount on the package always less. Orijens a great idea hopefully after the vet visit you will find just in case if its anything else! Good Luck!


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

what's the pull date on the bag?

when my dogs were on kibble, i accidentally bought yoghurt and the pull date was not current.

the same can happen with dog food, especially food that was fine and now isn't.

smell the bag and make sure it doesn't smell rancid...

i would recommend fasting the dogs for 24 hours to calm down their intestines and stomachs....and buy another bag....just to be sure.

maybe feed them some homemade chicken broth to keep them hydrated.


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## LoveWarrior (Apr 14, 2010)

I sent an email to EVO informing them of the situation and asking if they changed their formula. Following is their response (much of it seems to be canned and has nothing to do with the question I posed to them, which was simply asking if the formula had recenly been changed):

April 15, 2010

Brad Stevens
(email address redacted)

Dear Brad

Thank you for contacting Natura Pet Products. In October 2009, we removed beef cartilage and garlic from the EVO Red Meat dry dog food. No recent changes were made. 

Since Natura is an “all natural” pet food manufacturer, there can be some variation in color and aroma of our products. Natura uses all natural ingredients such as fresh meats, whole grains, fruits and veggies, and without any artificial colors, or dyes. 

Because of this, the color of the kibble is dependent on the color of the natural ingredients we use. We could use artificial colors and/or dyes to create a more consistent color, but Natura will only use ingredients that have a healthful benefit for your pet. 

Aroma can be affected by a few things. Freshness might be an issue, so check the expiration date on the bag to rule this out. If the food seems very dry to the touch, it may not have as much of an aroma as it should, which would affect the palatability of the food. 

These variations most of the time are not noticed as they are very minimal. However, from time to time they can be significant enough that we do. Typically these variations do not cause any issues but sometimes they can cause some digestive upset. We recommend taking the current bag of food you are feeding from back to the retail store and exchanging it for a bag with a different expiration date as this should clear up any of the issues your pet is experiencing. 

Our foods are 100% guaranteed for satisfaction. If for any reason you need to return the product you may do so at retail store where it was purchased. There you may receive a store credit, an exchange or a refund. 

If you have any additional questions or concerns please feel free to contact me at your convenience.


Best regards,
Heather, Licensed Veterinary Technician
Natura Product Advisor
(email address redacted)
(phone number redacted)


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## RCTRIPLEFRESH5 (Feb 11, 2010)

well since its of no cost to you, id return the food and try a new red emat, or another type of evo. might as well try another for rotation. also the other carieties are much higher quality. the red meat is ok.

if your store has orijen regional red yo ushould give that a go. as long as youre not in austrailia =p.


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## PUNKem733 (Jun 12, 2009)

RCTRIPLEFRESH5 said:


> well since its of no cost to you, id return the food and try a new red emat, or another type of evo. might as well try another for rotation. also the other carieties are much higher quality. the red meat is ok.
> 
> if your store has orijen regional red yo ushould give that a go. as long as youre not in austrailia =p.



The other varieties are not of "much" higher quality.


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## Norsire (Dec 30, 2010)

I've used evo now for a year, since my last order of 8 bags my one dog started throwing up off and on about 4 times a week, took him off and put him on id from the vets throwing up stopped started slowly adding back the evo and throwing up started again..now second dog is throwing up...i have read over and over since protor and gamble took over people are having a lot of problems of their dogs throwing up..one so far is not throwing up...i will not feed one more drop of evo dog food of any kind! The scary part is p & g can change their food and not change the label for 6 months...my batch expries in june of 2011 so most likely was made in june of 2010 my shippment came in sept, my first dog started throwing up beginning of oct 2010..this dog has never throw up in his entire life..so it has to be the evo....now second dog is throwing up every few days!! Be warned there is something harmful in evo now that p & g has taken over...and do your own research!!! Many have reported their dogs throwing up on evo since p & g took over making it!!! I am beyond disgusted with p&g


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## GermanSheperdlover (Nov 15, 2009)

I copied and pasted the ingredients from another post. But before I go any further, my dog ate C.N. his whole life with no issues and BANG p&g took over now my dog can not eat it. Hard core runny stools(IT WAS THE FOOD). Any way besides p&g being a BIG problem there are a couple of ingredients that CAN cause issue's in dogs and they are...Apples, Carrots, Tomatoes, Herring Oil, Garlic and Cottage Cheese, all of them CAN cause issues in dogs. Some dogs to include mine can not tolerate any kind of fish. But my money is on p&g being the problem. I have heard of at least 15 problem's with Innova and C.N. since they took over.

Beef, Lamb Meal, Potatoes, Egg, Sunflower Oil, Buffalo, Lamb, Venison, Beef Cartilage, Herring Oil, Natural Flavors, Apples, Carrots, Tomatoes, Alfalfa Sprouts, Garlic, Cottage Cheese, Potassium Chloride, Vitamins/Minerals, Ascorbic Acid, Dried Chicory Root, Direct-Fed Microbials, Vitamin E Supplement, Lecithin, Rosemary Extract.


evo herring-
Herring, salmon meal, herring meal, peas, salmon, eggs, herring oil, pea fiber, sunflower oil, natural flavor, apples, carrots, cottage cheese, dried chicory root, glucosamine hydrochloride, chondroitin sulfate, Minerals (Zinc proteinate, iron proteinate, copper proteinate, manganese proteinate, calcium iodate), Vitamins (Vitamin E supplement, betaine hydrochloride, niacin supplement, thiamine mononitrate, calcium pantothenate, Vitamin A supplement, Vitamin D3 supplement, biotin, riboflavin supplement, beta carotene, Vitamin B12 supplement, pyridoxine hydrochloride, phylloquinone, folic acid), Direct-fed Microbials (Dried Lactobacillus acidophilus fermentation product, Dried Enterrococcus faecium fermentation product).


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## RawFedDogs (Jun 16, 2008)

Norsire said:


> i have read over and over since protor and gamble took over people are having a lot of problems of their dogs throwing up


Where exactly did you read these 1st hand reports?



> The scary part is p & g can change their food and not change the label for 6 months


Where does that information come from?



> Be warned there is something harmful in evo now that p & g has taken over


Where do you get that information?



> Many have reported their dogs throwing up on evo since p & g took over making it!!!


Dogs have thrown up for a million years. What kind of first hand information do you have that EVO is any different that it was a year or more ago? I have a friend who is still feeding it with no problem. He can notice no change in any way.



> I am beyond disgusted with p&g


I am beyond discusted with people coming on boards to make wild outlandish claims that have no basis in fact whatsoever.


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## PUNKem733 (Jun 12, 2009)

http://dogfoodchat.com/forum/dry-canned-dog-food/5443-see-any-differences-evo-fed-dogs.html

I've seen quite a few more where that came from. My Neighbor fed Evo, and has switched after 2 of his 3 dogs started doing poorer, and having the runs. Got them on Orijen, and the problems went away, tried Evo again, and they returned.


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## buddy97 (Mar 29, 2010)

RawFedDogs said:


> Where exactly did you read these 1st hand reports?
> 
> 
> 
> ...




i can say that on the GSD board i belong to, there appeared to be a dramatic increase in cases of vomiting in newly bought EVO products a few months after the announced takeover. interestingly, id say a good majority of these folks were in the "im gonna stick with Natura" category after the announced takeover. of course, this is just anecdotal.

_AAFCO require manufacturers to meet the ACTUAL ingredient lists ONLY ONCE every six months_....i got this info from more than one manufacturer (champion and NV to name two of them) about a year ago. this may have changed recently. if it didnt, a pet food manufacturer could comply in early january, make ingredient changes after that, then not have to comply again until mid july.


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## RawFedDogs (Jun 16, 2008)

I think its a good example of what hysteria can do. The internet has been full of whiners and cryers since the day the purchase was announced. I haven't seen reliable information that anything has changed with any of the products. No changes in ingredients, no changes in suppliers nor any changes in quality of ingredients. It's scary what hysteria can do.

Dogs vomit every day. Dogs have diarrhea every day. Food is never blamed unless there has been a change or a suspected change. At that point it is ALWAYS the fault of the food.


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

with both kibble fed dogs and raw fed dogs....funny, (not ha ha funny)....that treats and table foods or some other 'extra' besides that actual kibble or raw food is held responsible for said diarrhea and/or vomiting....

maybe it's not the food at all...maybe a new treat was introduced..maybe the dog ate the head of the kong off....(that would be my pug).....on one occasion, i discovered he's feasting on his bed....

i think perhaps all of us get a little tunnel visioned....those who feed raw and are new at it...and those who change from one kibble to another and it's new to the dog....or it didn't happen before and it's happening now...

gotta look at the big picture...just sayin'


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## buddy97 (Mar 29, 2010)

RawFedDogs said:


> I think its a good example of what hysteria can do. The internet has been full of whiners and cryers since the day the purchase was announced. I haven't seen reliable information that anything has changed with any of the products. No changes in ingredients, no changes in suppliers nor any changes in quality of ingredients. It's scary what hysteria can do.
> 
> Dogs vomit every day. Dogs have diarrhea every day. Food is never blamed unless there has been a change or a suspected change. At that point it is ALWAYS the fault of the food.


the people im talking about have been faithful evo followers for a long time, and most are ones who poo poo'd all the hysteria about changes being made. they are all trying to be objective and look for other causes....it lends some credibility to the possibility to some changes having occured. the folks on this particular GSD board are pretty sharp and have been anything but hysterical about this.

people commonly post about their dogs vomiting because they are looking for a solution to why it is occuring. when, in a several month span, smart people who happen to be feeding EVO are creating a dramatically large number of posts about vomiting, it raises a red flag in my head...maybe thats just me.

the fact is, Natura (and anyone else for that matter) could have changed ingredients and nobody would know it if the company took full advantage of AAFCO's loose labelling requirements.

the only proof would be if somewhere a few months down the road people notice changed ingredient lists on the bags.

none of these consumers are going to have the ability to have their kibble properly analyzed for a breakdown of the ingredients. all they can rely on is the label. unfortunately, that may or may not be accurate at this time.


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## RawFedDogs (Jun 16, 2008)

buddy97 said:


> they are all trying to be objective and look for other causes....it lends some credibility to the possibility to some changes having occured. the folks on this particular GSD board are pretty sharp and have been anything but hysterical about this.


Everyone thinks they are trying to be objective about everything. However if they really were, there would be no psychosematic illnesses and no hypochondriacs. Every board I have been on where this has been discussed, I have seen hysteria. There is NO ... i repeat NO credible evidence nor any LOGICAL reason to suspect that any changes have been made to EVO. Not even one shred of evidence even the slightest amount of evidence to indicate any changes have been made other that hysterical rantings from naysayers on the internet.



> the fact is, Natura (and anyone else for that matter) could have changed ingredients and nobody would know it if the company took full advantage of AAFCO's loose labelling requirements.


They COULD but honestly, why would they? What could they possibly gain by attempting to deceive the public, particularly with all the hysteria running rampant? That would be suicide. By far, the greatest majority of companies are not crooked. You don't get to be one of the largest companies in the world by attempting to deceive your customers.


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## buddy97 (Mar 29, 2010)

RawFedDogs said:


> Everyone thinks they are trying to be objective about everything. However if they really were, there would be no psychosematic illnesses and no hypochondriacs. Every board I have been on where this has been discussed, I have seen hysteria. There is NO ... i repeat NO credible evidence nor any LOGICAL reason to suspect that any changes have been made to EVO. Not even one shred of evidence even the slightest amount of evidence to indicate any changes have been made other that hysterical rantings from naysayers on the internet..


without knowing the people i am talking about, you cannot call them hysterical. im talking about at least 30 GSD owners who have been loyal EVO feeders for years. they have looked at all possible factors for the vomiting, particularly because they were the most loyal defenders of the product when P&G took over. in my world, it looks suspicious and could be evidence of something.

you are always asking why they would change something. if they thought they could and nobody would notice, maybe they would. after all, you have always preached how ALL the companies are just looking after the bottom line. if they changed something and will change the labels on packaging in 5 months, they are playing by the rules that they are allowed to.

there are plenty of huge successful companies that thought they could get away with something for the sake of the dollar, got caught, and recovered nevertheless.

im not saying they have or havent changed anything. im saying i have NEVER in all my years on that board seen such a large rash of virtually identical problem with the same food (and same formula, by the way). in my mind that could be evidence that something has changed.

since you are so certain this particular group of people cannot be objective because, well, nobody can be objective...they just think they can be.....then by that set of rules i might say a person with the least ability to be objective would be a Proctor & Gamble shareholder...

....even if said person wants to claim he can be objective.


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## RawFedDogs (Jun 16, 2008)

buddy97 said:


> without knowing the people i am talking about, you cannot call them hysterical. im talking about at least 30 GSD owners who have been loyal EVO feeders for years.


Anytime I see any group of 30 or more people coming to the same conlcusion for an unverifible problem, I strongly suspect hysteria. "my dog vomited, must have been the food." "Mine did to. his must have been the food also." "Hey, I have the same problem here. If your's was the food, must be the same here." "mine vomited 6 months ago, his must have been food also." and so on and so on and so on.



> you are always asking why they would change something. if they thought they could and nobody would notice, maybe they would. after all, you have always preached how ALL the companies are just looking after the bottom line. if they changed something and will change the labels on packaging in 5 months, they are playing by the rules that they are allowed to.


All companies look at their bottom line as the most important number in their world. If your bottom line is great because of the quality of your product, you don't try to increase the bottom line by decreasing the quality of your product.



> there are plenty of huge successful companies that thought they could get away with something for the sake of the dollar, got caught, and recovered nevertheless.


They all had one thing in common. They lost huge sums of money in the process.



> im not saying they have or havent changed anything.


I'm not saying they haven't changed. I'm saying it wouldn't be smart and the executives at P&G definately among the smartest in the world. I'm also saying that other than unfounded internet hysteria, I haven't seen anything that would lead me to believe me that they even considered changing. The hysteria began the day the announcment was made and has taken on a life of its own based on nothing.



> im saying i have NEVER in all my years on that board seen such a large rash of virtually identical problem with the same food (and same formula, by the way). in my mind that could be evidence that something has changed.


COULD be. Maybe ... but I have been on these boards for 9 years and I see this over and over. From a new raw feeder: "OMG, I just fed a chicken back and my dog has diarrhea and/or vomiting. I am killing my dog." If everything was left at that point, the feeling around the internet would be if you feed raw, you are killing your dog. Thankfully there are expienced raw feeders around to set these people straight and help them through their little bump in the road. I'm trying to do the same thing with this issue until I see something concrete. I also see kibble feeders having the same problem and changing food cause this particular food "doesn't agree with my dog." 



> since you are so certain this particular group of people cannot be objective because, well, nobody can be objective...they just think they can be.....then by that set of rules i might say a person with the least ability to be objective would be a Proctor & Gamble shareholder...
> 
> ....even if said person wants to claim he can be objective.


Im not claiming to be objective. I just want to see some concrete evidence before I can believe the hysteria that has been around before the sale was even finalized. :smile:


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## buddy97 (Mar 29, 2010)

RawFedDogs said:


> Anytime I see any group of 30 or more people coming to the same conlcusion for an unverifible problem, I strongly suspect hysteria. :


ive been around long enough to know when i see hysteria. i know a majority of these folks. they are very well informed and most had no interest in coming to the conclusion that it might be the food until other possibilities had been accounted for.

when i see 30 or more people havinfg the same problem and are feeding the exact same formula of the exact same food, i cannot dismiss it as hysteria.


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## RCTRIPLEFRESH5 (Feb 11, 2010)

2 things that should be noted are that ...evos label could remain the same..but the quality of ingridients could be down. the staff could be changed, and the processing could be changed.

other thing is rfd owns stock in p and g so take his word with caution


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## GermanSheperdlover (Nov 15, 2009)

You are arguing with someone who has an investment in a product. As with anyone who has a money investment in a product they have very closed minds. It would be like arguing with the owner of Wal Mart, who say's Ol Roy is a great dog food. I work 3 part time jobs with-in the dog food industry(not a dog food company) and I can tell you I hear the problems first hand at least once a week. AND MY DOG HAD BAD STOOLS BECAUSE OF C.N. PERIOD!! It is a fact, my dog can no longer tolerate C.N. But just by looking at the history of what p&g has done, it should be crystal clear what the future is going to bring. Both Eukanuba and Iams were ""once"" decent dog foods...Failure to remember the past and you well repeat it!!!


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## buddy97 (Mar 29, 2010)

GermanSheperdlover said:


> Both Eukanuba and Iams were ""once"" decent dog foods...Failure to remember the past and you well repeat it!!!


actually, they were never decent. there were simply less choices 20 years ago.


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## RawFedDogs (Jun 16, 2008)

RCTRIPLEFRESH5 said:


> other thing is rfd owns stock in p and g so take his word with caution


Hehe, I not only own stock in P&G, I own A LOT of stock in P&G. However the new purchase of Natura could go belly up and it would make no measurable in the value of my stock or the dividends. It's such a tiny part of the overall picture. Honestly, I don't even know why P&G bothered with such a small company. 

Owning P&G doesn't have the slightest impact on my opinion of the hysteria sweeping the internet.


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## RawFedDogs (Jun 16, 2008)

GermanSheperdlover said:


> Both Eukanuba and Iams were ""once"" decent dog foods...Failure to remember the past and you well repeat it!!!


They are both basically the same foods they were years ago. It's just that higher quality foods have come along in the last 10 years or so.


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## ziggy29 (Feb 1, 2010)

RawFedDogs said:


> Hehe, I not only own stock in P&G, I own A LOT of stock in P&G. However the new purchase of Natura could go belly up and it would make no measurable in the value of my stock or the dividends. It's such a tiny part of the overall picture. Honestly, I don't even know why P&G bothered with such a small company.


Fair enough and the disclosure is appreciated. But I do think that even if you are right, and you might be, there is good reason for people to note the potential conflict of interest. Even if you *did* think P&G would compromise Natura (and there's no evidence of that at this time), would you say so? Personally I think you should "recuse" yourself from discussion about this issue, but that's obviously your choice. 

Having said that, the original post in this resurrected thread was in April 2010, well before P&G acquired Natura. So the original symptoms and the business acquisition have *zero* correlation or relevance.


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## RawFedDogs (Jun 16, 2008)

ziggy29 said:


> Even if you *did* think P&G would compromise Natura (and there's no evidence of that at this time), would you say so?


Don't know. Probably wouldn't say anything. I'd probably just sit back and let it run is course.


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## GermanSheperdlover (Nov 15, 2009)

RawFedDogs said:


> They are both basically the same foods they were years ago. It's just that higher quality foods have come along in the last 10 years or so.


Yeah OK, LOL !!!!


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## GermanSheperdlover (Nov 15, 2009)

RawFedDogs said:


> Don't know. Probably wouldn't say anything. I'd probably just sit back and let it run is course.


The course is over and the facts are coming in faster than lightening. I was a "HUGE fan" of Naturapet and went to bat for them over and over and over, after p&g BOUGHT THEM OUT. But I can not deny it anymore about what has happened. Now I am on the other side of the fence. FACTS ARE FACTS and going down to your local GOOD dog food store and asking a few questions will answer any questions you might have. I am done on this subject and have a Happy New Year.


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## buddy97 (Mar 29, 2010)

GermanSheperdlover said:


> Yeah OK, LOL !!!!


it is a fact. someone posted ingredients from a bag of iams from around 1989. there was no discernable difference from what it is today. ther only difference was that back then, most people would see chicken listed first and not know any better.


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## 1605 (May 27, 2009)

GermanSheperdlover said:


> The course is over and the facts are coming in faster than lightening. I was a "HUGE fan" of Naturapet and went to bat for them over and over and over, after p&g BOUGHT THEM OUT. But I can not deny it anymore about what has happened. Now I am on the other side of the fence. FACTS ARE FACTS and going down to your local GOOD dog food store and asking a few questions will answer any questions you might have. I am done on this subject and have a Happy New Year.


Okay, how about this for FACTS:

I bought 2 bags of EVO Turkey & Chicken at the beginning of December & there was no difference in the ingredients or the way they were listed than when this whole "evil P&G" juggernaut started months ago.

I talked with the owner of the store where I buy my dog's food to see if there had been any news about Natura changing their forumulas or ingredients. He answered that nothing had changed to his knowledge & that Natura had not informed him of any upcoming changes.

My dog has not suffered from any digestive problems, nor has there been any difference in his energy level or the shine in his coat. 

I am with RFD about how rumour becomes hysteria in this instance. No one has done any kind of true study or submitted any empirical data linking a dog's digestive problems with actual changes in Natura dog food. All we're getting is "the dog is having a problem so it must be the Natura..."

Pax,


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## RawFedDogs (Jun 16, 2008)

GermanSheperdlover said:


> FACTS ARE FACTS and going down to your local GOOD dog food store and asking a few questions will answer any questions you might have. I am done on this subject and have a Happy New Year.


Of course your done with the subject because you are at the point that you are going to be asked to produce those facts and they don't exist. Sorry, I don't go to dog food stores. Don't even know where one is.


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## Serendipity (Aug 13, 2010)

RCTRIPLEFRESH5 said:


> evo red meat recently changed their ingridents. it has potatoes as the third ingridient.
> id say theymight have an allergy to potatoes,but yo usaid they did fine on the food before? allergies are developed though, so they may have developed it from eating the food for long periods of time also!
> 
> id sy give the herring evo a shot, its a lot mroe pricey but yo usaid you wanna fveeed them the ebst, and that looks the ebst.
> ...


I've fed EVO before the P&G acquisition, and the ingredient list for the Red Meat Formula is still the same as it was before.


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## buddy97 (Mar 29, 2010)

SubMariner said:


> Okay, how about this for FACTS:
> 
> I bought 2 bags of EVO Turkey & Chicken at the beginning of December & there was no difference in the ingredients or the way they were listed than when this whole "evil P&G" juggernaut started months ago.
> 
> I talked with the owner of the store where I buy my dog's food to see if there had been any news about Natura changing their forumulas or ingredients. He answered that nothing had changed to his knowledge & that Natura had not informed him of any upcoming changes.




im not saying anything has changed. however, if the bags you bought in december were packaged (as an example) in november and some ingredients had been changed at that time, they would not be required to change the ingredient labels on the bags for several more months (per AAFCO labelling requirements).

Natura is under no obligation to tell store vendors that any changes are upcoming or have occured, though i know quite a few vendors who always think they are in the loop.

my gut feeling is (sorry RFD, i did not sneak into Natura facilities and pilfer documents or conduct any testing on their products) that Natura may have done some tweaking of their supply chains resulting in a lower and/or different quality in certain products, resulting in some digestive upset.

please note, it is a *gut feeling...a suspicion* only based on anecdotal evidence.


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## RawFedDogs (Jun 16, 2008)

buddy97 said:


> please note, it is a *gut feeling...a suspicion* only based on anecdotal evidence.


I know you are going to violently disagree but think about this, Derek. Someone has a "gut feeling ... a suspicion" based on nothing other than internet rumours or fueled by internet rumours. Does that not sound just a little bit like hysteria?


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## xxshaelxx (Mar 8, 2010)

buddy97 said:


> it is a fact. someone posted ingredients from a bag of iams from around 1989. there was no discernable difference from what it is today. ther only difference was that back then, most people would see chicken listed first and not know any better.


1998:










1999:










Now:

Chicken, Chicken By-Product Meal, Corn Meal, Ground Whole Grain Sorghum, Ground Whole Grain Barley, Brewers Rice, Chicken Fat (preserved with mixed Tocopherols, a source of Vitamin E), Chicken Flavor, Dried Beet Pulp, Dried Egg Product, Fish Meal, Potassium Chloride, Brewers Dried Yeast, Salt, Fish Oil (preserved with mixed Tocopherols, a source of Vitamin E), Flax Meal, Sodium Hexametaphosphate, Choline Chloride, Fructooligosaccharides, Minerals (Ferrous Sulfate, Zinc Oxide, Manganese Sulfate, Copper Sulfate, Manganous Oxide, Potassium Iodide, Cobalt Carbonate), Vitamins (Ascorbic Acid, Vitamin A Acetate, Calcium Pantothenate, Biotin, Thiamine Mononitrate (source of vitamin B1), Vitamin B12 Supplement, Niacin, Riboflavin Supplement (source of vitamin B2), Inositol, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride (source of vitamin B6), Vitamin D3 Supplement, Folic Acid), Calcium Carbonate, DL-Methionine, Vitamin E Supplement, Beta-Carotene, Rosemary Extract.



1999:










Now:

Chicken, Corn Meal, Ground Whole Grain Sorghum, Ground Whole Grain Barley, Chicken By-Product Meal (Natural source of Chondroitin Sulfate and Glucosamine), Chicken Flavor, Dried Beet Pulp, Dried Egg Product, Chicken Fat (preserved with mixed Tocopherols, a source of Vitamin E), Fish Meal, Potassium Chloride, Brewers Dried Yeast, Fish Oil (preserved with mixed Tocopherols, a source of Vitamin E), Salt, Flax Meal, Sodium Hexametaphosphate, Choline Chloride, Calcium Carbonate, Fructooligosaccharides, Minerals (Ferrous Sulfate, Zinc Oxide, Manganese Sulfate, Copper Sulfate, Manganous Oxide, Potassium Iodide, Cobalt Carbonate), DL-Methionine, Dried Chicken Cartilage (Natural source of Chondroitin Sulfate and Glucosamine), Vitamins (Ascorbic Acid, Vitamin A Acetate, Calcium Pantothenate, Biotin, Thiamine Mononitrate (source of vitamin B1), Vitamin B12 Supplement, Niacin, Riboflavin Supplement (source of vitamin B2), Inositol, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride (source of vitamin B6), Vitamin D3 Supplement, Folic Acid), Vitamin E Supplement, Beta-Carotene, Rosemary Extract.


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## 1605 (May 27, 2009)

buddy97 said:


> im not saying anything has changed. however, if the bags you bought in december were packaged (as an example) in november and some ingredients had been changed at that time, they would not be required to change the ingredient labels on the bags for several more months (per AAFCO labelling requirements).
> 
> Natura is under no obligation to tell store vendors that any changes are upcoming or have occured, though i know quite a few vendors who always think they are in the loop.
> 
> ...


This is getting more fanciful by the minute. You say their ingredients MAY have changed, but I, who have been feeding my dog the same food since the P&G announcement & have saved all the labels from the feed tell you they haven't. So to back up your allegations you claim they don't need to show changes in their feed make up until some hazy "future date"? Hmmm.....

Buy their food or don't, it's up to you. But how credible would YOU consider a "source" when the only thing they report is rumour & innuendo?


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## Serendipity (Aug 13, 2010)

EVO Red Meat is still part of my dogs rotation. Depending on the price of the new Orijen formulas, I may switch to another EVO formula (Herring instead of 6 Fish). My dog is still the same on EVO, and is doing WONDERFULLY; I have not noticed ANY changes. With upper management & claims of human grade ingredients still intact, I cannot see Natura going down the drain. Look at the ingredients; is there some sort of poison they are now spraying onto the kibbles? They are operating INDEPENDENTLY under P&G and I think it's ridiculous that "GermanShepherdLover" dropped Natura from his good dog food list, below Kirkland, Whole Earth Farms, Natural Balance, etc. 

And you know what? My dog also THREW UP after eating some EVO kibble; a bag made in November, actually. But did I freak out? No! I just assumed it was the combination of him being a Golden (retrievers just seem to inhale their food) and the palatability of EVO. By the time I came back with some paper towels and a cleaner, he'd already eaten most of it. After that, he was perfectly fine. I, too, want to see more official proof than some bad experiences on forums. That can happen with ANY food, and people are just freaking out because of the P&G acquisition. 

Also, this may be off-topic, but I still haven't been able to figure out how to upload a profile pic; I feel so technologically challenged xD.


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## RCTRIPLEFRESH5 (Feb 11, 2010)

SubMariner said:


> This is getting more fanciful by the minute. You say their ingredients MAY have changed, but I, who have been feeding my dog the same food since the P&G announcement & have saved all the labels from the feed tell you they haven't. So to back up your allegations you claim they don't need to show changes in their feed make up until some hazy "future date"? Hmmm.....
> 
> Buy their food or don't, it's up to you. But how credible would YOU consider a "source" when the only thing they report is rumour & innuendo?


ingridients can still change despite labels remaining the same.....not only this but high quality chicken used in natura formulas is not the same as low quality chicken that may be used now......although according to labels they are EXACTLY the same


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## Cliffdog (Dec 30, 2010)

RCTRIPLEFRESH5 said:


> ingridients can still change despite labels remaining the same.....not only this but high quality chicken used in natura formulas is not the same as low quality chicken that may be used now......although according to labels they are EXACTLY the same


This... dog food companies are not allowed to make statements as to the quality of meat used in their food on the label (AKA they cannot say "human-grade" or anything) so they chicken used now may be 4-D meat (dead, dying, disabled, diseased). This meat is what they feed to racing greyhounds who frankly have a short lifespan thanks to it (my family has been racing champion greyhounds for decades so I have seen this first-hand).

Also, for the record, dog food companies do not have to change the ingredients until 6 months after changing their food, no later. And as I said, they do not (can not) list a decline in the QUALITY of food used.


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## RawFedDogs (Jun 16, 2008)

RCTRIPLEFRESH5 said:


> ingridients can still change despite labels remaining the same.....not only this but high quality chicken used in natura formulas is not the same as low quality chicken that may be used now......although according to labels they are EXACTLY the same


EXACTLY what is the difference between a low quality chicken and a high quality chicken? I don't think there is such a thing in the dog food world. Then only think I could come up with is the stuff dropped on the floor or 4D chickens both of which is found in dog food of every manufacturer including Natura. Is now and always has been. 

You just can't stop running down this company, can you? Come up with something concrete. We have had enough "may have's" and "maybe's" and "possibly's" and "could have's" and "probably will's" and "sometime in the future's".


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## RCTRIPLEFRESH5 (Feb 11, 2010)

RawFedDogs said:


> EXACTLY what is the difference between a low quality chicken and a high quality chicken? I don't think there is such a thing in the dog food world. Then only think I could come up with is the stuff dropped on the floor or 4D chickens both of which is found in dog food of every manufacturer including Natura. Is now and always has been.
> 
> You just can't stop running down this company, can you? Come up with something concrete. We have had enough "may have's" and "maybe's" and "possibly's" and "could have's" and "probably will's" and "sometime in the future's".


a 1000 mile journey starts with a single step. in order for anyone to look for facts, suspicion must motivate one to do so. we are discussing things to look for in the future. also just because you cant see the diff in the list, doesnt mean you should ignore it bill.

i honestly think they HAVE...but dont want to ruffle feathers with submariner lol.


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## buddy97 (Mar 29, 2010)

RawFedDogs said:


> Then only think I could come up with is the stuff dropped on the floor or 4D chickens both of which is found in dog food of every manufacturer including Natura. Is now and always has been.
> QUOTE]
> 
> it is a fact that this is not allowed in EU certified plants. i dont know if Natura is EU certified or not, but saying every manufacturer is not accurate since there are EU certifird manuffacturers out there.


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## buddy97 (Mar 29, 2010)

SubMariner said:


> This is getting more fanciful by the minute. You say their ingredients MAY have changed, but I, who have been feeding my dog the same food since the P&G announcement & have saved all the labels from the feed tell you they haven't. So to back up your allegations you claim they don't need to show changes in their feed make up until some hazy "future date"? Hmmm....


did you not understand how long manufacturers can wait to change their labels once they go through an audit? AAFCO requirements would allow a company to go up to 6 months after changing ingredients before changing the labels. the only thing you know hasnt changed are the labels.

at any rate, im not even saying they changed anything, im just laying out the possibility based on over 30 reputable gsd owners who are all feeding the exact same evo formula and who have had very similar responses from their dogs in a 2-3 month period.


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## GermanSheperdlover (Nov 15, 2009)

Serendipity said:


> EVO Red Meat is still part of my dogs rotation. Depending on the price of the new Orijen formulas, I may switch to another EVO formula (Herring instead of 6 Fish). My dog is still the same on EVO, and is doing WONDERFULLY; I have not noticed ANY changes. With upper management & claims of human grade ingredients still intact, I cannot see Natura going down the drain. Look at the ingredients; is there some sort of poison they are now spraying onto the kibbles? They are operating INDEPENDENTLY under P&G and I think it's ridiculous that "GermanShepherdLover" dropped Natura from his good dog food list, below Kirkland, Whole Earth Farms, Natural Balance, etc.
> 
> And you know what? My dog also THREW UP after eating some EVO kibble; a bag made in November, actually. But did I freak out? No! I just assumed it was the combination of him being a Golden (retrievers just seem to inhale their food) and the palatability of EVO. By the time I came back with some paper towels and a cleaner, he'd already eaten most of it. After that, he was perfectly fine. I, too, want to see more official proof than some bad experiences on forums. That can happen with ANY food, and people are just freaking out because of the P&G acquisition.
> 
> Also, this may be off-topic, but I still haven't been able to figure out how to upload a profile pic; I feel so technologically challenged xD.


Actually I am getting very close to putting California Natural and Innova on my all worst dog food list. Everywhere I go, whether it is on the internet or a GOOD pet food store, I keep hearing the same thing over and over again..... Just because they have not changed the formula does not mean that they are not sourcing from lower quality suppliers. If you can not figure out that their are differences between suppliers, well then I guess you would say a ford pinto is just as good as Acura.

The bottom line is, would I feed Kirkland, Whole Earth Farms, Natural Balance, etc before Nutura pet products YES, YES, YES because I used to do just that.


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## Serendipity (Aug 13, 2010)

Sure sure, but I do NOT see it going below holistic Diamond quality, etc. Management & human grade claims are still intact. I don't even know the quality of the meat in Kirkland.


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## cast71 (Sep 16, 2010)

I don't care if natura changed there formulas or not. P & G still does animal testing. That's enough for me to stay away.


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