# <<SIGH>> Lost, lost, lost!



## lk9984 (Aug 20, 2009)

Hello all,

I am new to the forum, happened upon it in my neverending dogfood search.

I am currently trying to find a suitable food for my 1 year old male great dane. I've fed pedigree and other lower-cost, lower-end dog foods in the past, but now that I know better, I've been trying to find something GOOD for my dane. While I haven't had a ton of problems on the lower-quality foods (raised and know of several happy, healthy dogs over 12), some of the more daily problems (lots of waste, teeth tartar, poor coat, etc) I am hoping I can help. I've been researching (in my own way) dog food for a long time now. So far I have tried Canidae, Chicken soup, nutri-source, health-wise, pro-plan (as I've seen lots of dogs thrive on it, but realize it isn't a good quality food) and most recently Taste of the Wild wetlands, which he seems to enjoy the taste, I like the ingredients, priced right, but unfortunately the protein is 32% with Fat at 18% and the recommended protein is under 24% and fat at less than 14%. He has been diagnosed and is going in for surgery next week for an OCD lesion, and since he is still growing, I'm not sure I am comfortable feeding him this 32-18 food. Since I've tried so many, I am getting worried about his all this switching and his digestive system, and I want to have a good idea what to try next, so hopefully we can stick with it and stop with all the playing around. Finally, I have a hard time spending $50+ on a bag of 30lb dog food, I'd really like to stay around $40, or $45 at the most. I have considered making the switch to raw, but I am not in a place that this would be feasible for me at the moment. Do you guys have any suggestions on a good food that meets this criteria?

Thanks all!


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## Doc (Jan 17, 2009)

If you are close to Costco, try their Kirkland Signature Brand Dog Kibble. For the money, it is pretty good stuff and afforable.


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## RawFedDogs (Jun 16, 2008)

lk9984 said:


> Taste of the Wild wetlands, which he seems to enjoy the taste, I like the ingredients, priced right, but unfortunately the protein is 32% with Fat at 18% and the recommended protein is under 24% and fat at less than 14%.


He has finished the greatest portion of his growth and I wouldn't worry about the protein levels. Protein is the building block of muscles and won't be a problem for him. If I had to feed kibble, I would feed EVO or Orijen. Since I don't feed kibble, I don't keep up with the prices so I can't help you there.



> I am getting worried about his all this switching and his digestive system, and I want to have a good idea what to try next, so hopefully we can stick with it and stop with all the playing around.


Don't be concerned about switching. I suggest feeding grain free and as high protein and you can afford. Other than that, they are all about the same.


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## Doc (Jan 17, 2009)

I've used Orijen before - graet product but grab your wallet! Jesse James without a gun!!!!!


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## BabyHusky (Jul 21, 2008)

yea im an Evo and Orijen gal which definitely don't help the budget. As someone else suggested, Kirkland Signature Brand from Costco isn't too bad for the cost.


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## claybuster (Dec 18, 2008)

If I was going to pick a kibble, it would only be Abady Kibble diets. They do not contain the omnivore buffet of ingredients as seen with the other high end kibbles. Unless of course you feel your dog is an omnivore, then you may welcome fruits and veggies in the diet.


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## CorgiPaws (Mar 31, 2009)

Disreguard everything they've told you about protien content. Your dog, just like every other dog, is a carnivore. 
Unless you plan to go raw, which is highly recommended, but entirely up to you, I'd say Orijen or Evo. They do contain fruits and veggies, but are grain free and have the highest meat content in kibbles. Other foods might not have as many fruits and veggies but fill it with cheap "animal product" fillers. Choice is yours. 

As far as price, they are expensive. I know we sell a 28lb bag for $56. 
If you're on a tight budget but still want to do better than grocery store brands, Kirkland SIgnature (CostCo) is decent for the price.


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## RawFedDogs (Jun 16, 2008)

claybuster said:


> If I was going to pick a kibble, it would only be Abady Kibble diets.


When did you switch to Abady??? :smile:


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## claybuster (Dec 18, 2008)

CorgiPaws said:


> Disreguard everything they've told you about protien content


True, gluten source proteins, the protien from veggies, fruits, grains, have a biological value of zero to the dog. So when you see 42% you should seriously think twice.

Grain free is a gimmick. You have gained no value by replacing grain fiber with plant fiber, you are hence back to square one again.



> They do contain fruits and veggies, but are grain free and have the highest meat content in kibbles.


No matter how you look at the ingredients and meat content, kibbles can only be 20% meat by definition. Any more than that it won't hold together and be a kibble. You have to look at the whole package of the ingredients.

No offense, but a lot of you raw feeders out there talk a good game, but fall right back into the path a commercial omnivore nutrition, hook, line and sinker.
Leads me to believe a lot of raw feeders must think the same. Not sure if the fully get the picture about omnivore nutrition and what that means. With the exception of maybe ramiller. I think she gets it.


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## Unosmom (May 3, 2009)

I would keep feeding TOTW if your dog likes it, unless your dog is diagnosed with a condition that prevents him from eating food with over 25% protein, it should not be an issue.


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## RawFedDogs (Jun 16, 2008)

claybuster said:


> True, gluten source proteins, the protien from veggies, fruits, grains, have a biological value of zero to the dog. So when you see 42% you should seriously think twice.


I think EVO claims 95% of their protein is animal protein but I might have them confused with someone else.



> Grain free is a gimmick. You have gained no value by replacing grain fiber with plant fiber, you are hence back to square one again.


Except that grain in kibble causes digestive problems in many dogs.



> No matter how you look at the ingredients and meat content, kibbles can only be 20% meat by definition.


I don't know where you got that information unless it was in Abady's promotional material.



> No offense, but a lot of you raw feeders out there talk a good game, but fall right back into the path a commercial omnivore nutrition, hook, line and sinker.


I think most of us raw feeders feed meat, bones, and organs with no plant material in it. However when talking to kibble people about kibbles, you can't find one without plant material. Even your Abady is full of rice. I don't see rice as being any better for dogs than the other plants in kibbles.



> Leads me to believe a lot of raw feeders must think the same. Not sure if the fully get the picture about omnivore nutrition and what that means. With the exception of maybe ramiller. I think she gets it.


I think we all understand AND FEED carnivore diets to our dogs.


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## claybuster (Dec 18, 2008)

RawFedDogs said:


> I don't see rice as being any better for dogs than the other plants in kibbles.


Of course you don't.



> I think we all understand AND FEED carnivore diets to our dogs.


And, when there is no other options to raw, move right back to omnivore nutrition where 10 plants are better than 1. You make no sense.


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## RawFedDogs (Jun 16, 2008)

claybuster said:


> Of course you don't.


Because there is none.



> And, when there is no other options to raw,


In my book, there are no other acceptable options to raw.



> move right back to omnivore nutrition where 10 plants are better than 1. You make no sense.


If the total volume plant material is less in the food that has 10 plants, then yes, it is better. In other words, you can have a tiny amount of 10 different plants or a whole bunch of one plant which happens to be a grain and total volume of the grain is more than the total volume of the 10 plants, then 10 plants is best (actually least worst). I don't know why you can't see that. Oh, I forget, you get your information from Abady promotional material.


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## claybuster (Dec 18, 2008)

RawFedDogs said:


> If the total volume plant material ...


Totally confused as usual. There are NO plant materials in Abady foods. There are some plant oils and non-allergenic rice grain...but no PLANT MATERIALS. Plant material typically used in omnivore nutriton like the feeds you recommend. Nice try though.


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## claybuster (Dec 18, 2008)

RawFedDogs said:


> In my book, there are no other acceptable options to raw.


In my book there are acceptable options to raw and it is called ABADY. When you can't feed Abady, then raw becomes the only acceptable option. There is no room in my book for omnivore nutrition. Sorry, I just can't phantom recommending diets with broccoli and seaweed and cranberry dust.
That would be your department with those picks, not mine!


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## RawFedDogs (Jun 16, 2008)

claybuster said:


> Totally confused as usual. There are NO plant materials in Abady foods. There are some plant oils and non-allergenic rice grain...but no PLANT MATERIALS. Plant material typically used in omnivore nutriton like the feeds you recommend. Nice try though.


On which planet is rice not a plant??????? It's certainly not animal. It's got to be one or the other. Abady promotional materia is getting wierder and wierder. Wake up, CB. You are dreaming.

ETA: Your Abady stuff is the same as any other kibble.


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## claybuster (Dec 18, 2008)

RawFedDogs said:


> On which planet is rice not a plant??????? It's certainly not animal. It's got to be one or the other. Abady promotional materia is getting wierder and wierder. Wake up, CB. You are dreaming.
> 
> ETA: Your Abady stuff is the same as any other kibble.


You think grains of white rice (what comes *off* the plant) is the same as plant matter likes roots (chicory), kelp (seaweed) yucca, garlic????
Nope, plant matter is exactly that, however grains of rice (from a plant) pose no danger to the animal. There is a huge difference, but no one really excepts you to see or understand that. If you honesty feel a product like Abady granular is the same as any other kibble diet, you're the one who really needs to WAKE UP! What I am doing is greater safety as twice as effective as (commercial) whole prey.


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## JoeCo (Jul 21, 2009)

Not to butt into the latest argument but I seem to remember learning that rice is the seed from a plant just like corn and wheat. Not that rice is bad, I would bet most if it just goes right thought a dog digestive system unused just like other grains do, that is what causes the big turds. Just saying.


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## RawFedDogs (Jun 16, 2008)

claybuster said:


> You think grains of white rice (what comes *off* the plant) is the same as plant matter likes roots (chicory), kelp (seaweed) yucca, garlic????


Yes, exactly. Rice is part of a plant just as leaves, roots, stems, flowers, etc. It's the repoductive part of a plant. It would be the same as a seed, or kernel, or a pine cone, or acorn, etc. 



> What I am doing is greater safety as twice as effective as (commercial) whole prey.


HAHA ... Exactly where does that information come from (like I don't know)??? :smile:


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## RawFedDogs (Jun 16, 2008)

JoeCo said:


> Not to butt into the latest argument but I seem to remember learning that rice is the seed from a plant just like corn and wheat. Not that rice is bad, I would bet most if it just goes right thought a dog digestive system unused just like other grains do, that is what causes the big turds. Just saying.


Yep, you are exactly correct.


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## claybuster (Dec 18, 2008)

RawFedDogs said:


> Yep, you are exactly correct.


He is exactly incorrect, because only raw grain is unusable for carnivores.
When grain is cooked, starch is converted to dextrin and there you have a form of protein, although it be inefficient protein. White rice is the perfect ingredient for it's protein is not strong enough to grow tissue and the protein core of the food (animal source) is not jeopardized by none other than gluten source proteins. Brown rice is the ingredient to avoid not white rice. It's the hull of the rice grain is what is too be avoided because it contains gluten. It comes as no surprise that in omnivore commercial nutrition brown rice along with the gluten becomes the favorite pick. It is a surprise that raw feeders, even commercial whole prey model, fail to recognize what makes an acceptable ingredient and what doesn't. What is right for carnivores is avoiding the potentially dangerous ingredients, not safe ones. Gluten is to be avoided when it comes to carnivore nutrition. White Rice is rarely seen in dog foods (costs), however you will often note when you bring your dogs to the vet with a tummy ache from that omnivore kibble, they recommend chicken and white rice!


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## RawFedDogs (Jun 16, 2008)

claybuster said:


> He is exactly incorrect, because only raw grain is unusable for carnivores.


Hehe ... CB, you need to put your glasses on and go back and re-read his post. He said exactly what you said. Looks like you are trying to have an argument with yourself and you are still loosing. :smile:


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## claybuster (Dec 18, 2008)

JoeCo said:


> Not to butt into the latest argument but I seem to remember learning that rice is the seed from a plant just like corn and wheat. Not that rice is bad,* I would bet most if it just goes right thought a dog digestive system unused just like other grains do*, that is what causes the big turds. Just saying.




Again, only raw grain is unusable for carnivores. Grain *is* usable in dog food because *it is cooked*. And, because it is useable it does not cause big turds. Big turds are cause by high fiber diets, not low fiber diets. My dog has text book perfect stools each and every time. In fact, the stools are so tight and compact once on the ground about 10 minutes you could accidentally step on one and it won't smash into your shoe.


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## CorgiPaws (Mar 31, 2009)

claybuster said:


> Totally confused as usual. There are NO plant materials in Abady foods. There are some plant oils and non-allergenic rice grain...but no PLANT MATERIALS. Plant material typically used in omnivore nutriton like the feeds you recommend. Nice try though.


Rice is plant material. I don't care how you want to twist it in your mind, or what Abady borchure told you otherwise. Just because it came "off of a plant" doesn't mean it's not one. If you want to go that route, cranberries come "off of a plant" as do tomato, corn, and all of the other "plant products" in commercial dog food. 

As for grain free being a gimmick, I don't buy it. I do whole heartedly believe that a raw diet consisting of animal matter is the superior diet, but if you hae to go the kibble route, it's gotta be grain free. The grains cause digestive upset, allergies, etc. and I don't know in what world that's considered good.


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## CorgiPaws (Mar 31, 2009)

claybuster said:


> He is exactly incorrect, because only raw grain is unusable for carnivores.


You're right, the wolves used to boil their rice before eating it. It all makes sense now. 



claybuster said:


> White rice is the perfect ingredient for it's protein is not strong enough to grow tissue and the protein core of the food (animal source) is not jeopardized by none other than gluten source proteins.


Did Abady tell you that?



claybuster said:


> It is a surprise that raw feeders, even commercial whole prey model, fail to recognize what makes an acceptable ingredient and what doesn't.


I recognize that my dog is a carnivore, therefore a raw diet consisting of only meats is the ONLY thing that nutritionally makes sense. When it comes right down to a living situation that isn't fitting raw in, and kibble is the ONLY option, I'm going to pick one that is less risky on allergies and digestive upset, therefore, I am going to avoid grains altogether. 



claybuster said:


> What is right for carnivores is avoiding the potentially dangerous ingredients, not safe ones.


What is right for carnivores is avoiding anything but animal matter, if you want to get right down to it.



claybuster said:


> White Rice is rarely seen in dog foods (costs), however you will often note when you bring your dogs to the vet with a tummy ache from that omnivore kibble, they recommend chicken and white rice!


vets also recommend Science Diey, Royal Canin, Pukanuba, and other terrible foods, so what makes you think this white rice solution is any more species-appropriate than that mound of other crap vets will telly uo? Is it not well established that when it comes to nutrition, 99% of vets don't know anything?


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## claybuster (Dec 18, 2008)

CorgiPaws said:


> You're right, the wolves used to boil their rice before eating it. It all makes sense now.


Funny, but....when you hear dog food marketing justifying it because wolves often go after the stomach first for the grain content you know that is all BS because it HAS to be cooked to be useful for the dog. They want you to believe dogs are omnivores because of that and then justify diets where gluten source protein dominates rather than animal source.

OK, my feed puts out 31/28 and is around 800 cals per cup. Your designer kibbles that raw feeders opt for when you can't feed raw boast 42% yet 
can't put out those numbers. EVO is 42/22 and 537 per cup. Orijen Adult is 40/16 and 450 cals per cup. What does this tell you? It tells you you're being BS'ed with these feeds because you're getting fruit and vegetable proteins. Abady feeds DO NOT have their protein core jeopardized by gluten, nor fruit, nor veggies.

I don't expect you raw feeders to see this. I understand marketing is a powerful tool and many including the raw feeders like these omnivore kibble type diets. If you feel that type of promotional data (omnivore kibble) makes more sense than Abady science and research data, so be it. I don't see it that way and despite my feed having white rice.....IT STILL ROCKS AND PUMPS OUT THE CALS.


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## CorgiPaws (Mar 31, 2009)

claybuster said:


> Funny, but....when you hear dog food marketing justifying it because wolves often go after the stomach first for the grain content you know that is all BS because it HAS to be cooked to be useful for the dog.


I know it's BS because they shake the stomach contents out before aeting the stomach itself. Cooked or not, rice is species inappropriate. It actually suprises me with how much you bash "omnivore diets" that you yourself use a feed that has rice as the second ingredient. 



claybuster said:


> They want you to believe dogs are omnivores because of that and then justify diets where gluten source protein dominates rather than animal source.


Actually, if you read a bag of EVO, they market it as an alternative (but never claim to be superior) to raw feeding, never claiming that dogs are omnivores. 



claybuster said:


> OK, my feed puts out 31/28 and is around 800 cals per cup. Your designer kibbles that raw feeders opt for when you can't feed raw boast 42% yet
> can't put out those numbers. EVO is 42/22 and 537 per cup. Orijen Adult is 40/16 and 450 cals per cup. What does this tell you?


Anyone who knows anything about canine nutrition would not rely on ANY kibble as the one and only source of nutrition. My dogs are supplemented with raw meat, as they're carnivores and all....



claybuster said:


> I don't expect you raw feeders to see this. I understand marketing is a powerful tool and many including the raw feeders like these omnivore kibble type diets.


I don't know a single raw feeder that would feed kibble over raw. I know a few who ar times can not make raw fit into a living situation temporarily and from there will pick a high quality kibble. We are not blinded by marketing, just educated enough to know better than to feed Rice as a #2 ingredient. 



claybuster said:


> If you feel that type of promotional data (omnivore kibble) makes more sense than Abady science and research data, so be it.


Have you ever seen a flaw in relying on one company's research? Have you ever considered that MAYBE Abady doesn't have their stuff straight? have you ever questioned WHY you feed your dog such a grain-heavy food and call it great? Have you ever once considered that maybe your ego is greater than your dog food?



claybuster said:


> I don't see it that way and despite my feed having white rice.....IT STILL ROCKS AND PUMPS OUT THE CALS.


Yup. Despite you feed ALSO being an Omnivore diet like all the rest, it's totally carnivore. Do you read what you type before posting? ever?


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## sganow (Apr 16, 2009)

I probably woundn't feed TOTW to a Great Dane until at least 18 months old. You should stick to something that is more appropriate for a large/giant breed dog/puppy. If you want an ALS food, we have been using Nature's Variety Prairie with good results. It ranges from about $41 - $46 for a 30 lb bag of the chicken & brown rice formula. There are several varieties and they vary in price, but that allows for rotating the protein and fat sources. You can also get a buy one bag, get one free coupon at Welcome to Nature's Variety | Nature's Variety if you're interested in giving this food a try. Chicken Soup is a good food, and so is Premium Edge and Canidae (all made by Diamond). There have been several people suggest Kirkland from Costco, but you can also try Diamond Naturals which is basically the same thing and is also very decently priced. Diamond Naturals is available at many places, including Tractor Suppy Store and Menard's. You can check around to see what foods are available and check their prices. Local feed stores are also good options for pet foods. Good luck.


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