# doubting



## Celt (Dec 27, 2010)

Am I doing the right thing for my dogs? I'm beginning to doubt feeding raw. The pups aren't enthusiastic about eating, but then they have only shown lasting enthusism for the Pet Botanics meat rolls. The Old Man is having a hard time chewing, although he'd probably still have that problem and he seems to have a lot of large pieces of bone shards in his poop. It's a job and a half getting the pups to eat and none of them eat the amount they're supossed too. Maybe i should try a "cooked" diet instead, but then how will I know if they're getting the right amounts of nutrients they need. I just don't know if i'm doing the right thing.


----------



## Donna Little (May 31, 2011)

I have a tiny old Chihuahua that has always hated to eat (and he only has one tooth.) His health is failing so I switched him to raw to see if I could improve his quality of life. It's been about a little over a week and for the first few days he wasn't in love with the texture of it. So what I've done is ground it up until it's literally a paste. I'm having to add eggshell because I don't have a meat grinder so have no other way to get bone in there. He loves it this way and is eating really well (actually better than he's ever eaten) but refuses it if it's in pieces. Maybe you could give that a try for a little while and work them into chewing the meat with bone?


----------



## SerenityFL (Sep 28, 2010)

Alright, let's start at the beginning...and I do want to say, there have been times I've had the doubts myself. I mean that.

So, what are you feeding them, consistently? For example, what were their meals the last 3 days?

How long have they been on raw?

For the old man, cut back on the bone content and if he's having problems with chewing, you can grind the bones or even mash them with a hammer...see if that helps.

When you say, "pups", how old are these dogs?


----------



## monkeys23 (Dec 8, 2010)

So it sounds like you've been feeding some premade raw in addition to the whole raw?

My thought is that maybe the premade could be interfering with the whole raw digesting properly. Maybe his system hasn't been able to properly acclimate to digesting whole bone, etc. because of the processed food he is still getting. Just a thought...


----------



## DaneMama (Jun 27, 2008)

How long has it been since he was examined by a vet? Is it possible his teeth are in bad shape? IG's are notorious for terrible teeth. It may be worthwhile to buy yourself a meat/bone grinder and just use that if you can't get your dogs to eat bone....


----------



## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

Celt said:


> Am I doing the right thing for my dogs? I'm beginning to doubt feeding raw. The pups aren't enthusiastic about eating, but then they have only shown lasting enthusism for the Pet Botanics meat rolls. The Old Man is having a hard time chewing, although he'd probably still have that problem and he seems to have a lot of large pieces of bone shards in his poop. It's a job and a half getting the pups to eat and none of them eat the amount they're supossed too. Maybe i should try a "cooked" diet instead, but then how will I know if they're getting the right amounts of nutrients they need. I just don't know if i'm doing the right thing.


if we look at the ingredients in pet botanicals meat rolls:

Ingredients: 
Beef Hearts, Beef Kidneys, Beef Lungs, Whole Wheat Flour, Brown Rice, Wheat Bran, Beef Fat (preserved with Mixed Tocopherols and Citric Acid), Sucrose, Flaxseed Meal, Calcium Carbonate, Sodium Chloride, Modified Food Starch, Sodium Phosphates, Water, Brewer's Yeast, Dried Kelp Meal, Lecithin, Natural Smoke Flavor, Sorbic Acid, Glycerin, Rosemary Extract, Canola Oil, Choline Chloride Supplement, Ferrous Sulfate, Riboflaven Supplement, Vitamin B-12 Supplement, Vitamin A Acetate, Folic Acid Supplement, D-Calcium Pantothenate, Thiamine Mononitrate, D-Biotin Supplement, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride, Potassium Iodide, D-Activated Animal Sterols (Source of Vitamin D3) Biotin, Sodium Nitrate (for color), Sodium Selenite.

you'll see there is sugar in it....in the form of sucrose, and there's enough of it to make a difference in taste from some ordinary old chicken....

a dog might prefer that over the simplicity of raw food...and, if given a choice, i'd eat ice cream over spinach and boiled chicken...which is the better choice, but perhaps not the tastier choice...

dogs are no different than humans in that regard...

is there a chance that you might be so frustrated, that, when they don't eat, you can't stand to see them starve, so you give them a spoon ful or two of botanicals meat roll? if that's the case, then you could be starting a circle with no good ending. 

i think, if this is what you're doing, maybe you'd consider putting botanicals away....your kids won't starve. you can make them a chicken broth or beef broth to keep fluids in them as they do the hold out because we want the stuff with sugar in it....

for the old man...how old is he? and in the beginning, it's not uncommon to have bone shards in their stools. it's a transition....one that made me clench my knuckles as i watched my dogs go through it...but go through it, they will.....if you don't back off your resolve...


----------



## Celt (Dec 27, 2010)

The pups aren't really pups. Blaise is going to be 3 at the end of July and Scotty will be 2 a day after Blaise. Both of them have good teeth and it's the breed's trouble with teeth that I decided to go raw. The Old Man is an almost 18yr old Golden Retriever. The vet says that for his age he's in good shape. He use to eat chicken leg quarters no problem, then I had to cut them in "half", then I cut the meat off and then give him the bones which he may or may not eat, now he gets the meat from the quarters and a chicken neck (2 if he'll eat them). They've been sorta on raw since March. They were getting cooked meat with kibble along with the raw chicken, at different times. They've never had premade raw. It wasn't long before the Old Man stopped eating the kibble and would only eat meat. I've been feeding pork spareribs for the last 2 weeks. All of them prefer "cooked" meat over raw <sigh> even now I have to "sear" the meat to get them to eat it. I can't tough love Blaise because he's hypoglecmic, and I won't do it with the Old Man because of his age which leaves me feeling horrible about trying it with Scotty. I'm at a loss. I know that I can't go back to kibble/can because none of them will touch it now, and I'm not sure if I could do the cooked meal right. It sounds pretty complicated. They are eating if the meat's seared a little. It's just not very much. On a really good day, Dal (the Old Man) might eat 16 oz (which is just barely 2% of his weight), Blaise (the best eater) may eat 3 oz (which is his 2%), and Scotty might eat 2 oz (which is only half of his 2% amount).But on the calculator page, 2% is for losing weight which Dal and Scotty do not need, Blaise could stand to lose about a lb/lb and a half. Sorry to be such a bother.
I haven't fed the Pet Botanics since I've started with feeding real meats.


----------



## DaneMama (Jun 27, 2008)

The 2-3% is just a guideline. Most dogs fall between those %s but some need less and some need more. 

Have you noticed a huge weight drop since starting on raw? If not then 1% may just be the ideal maintenance level for them. If you have noticed a decline in weight, try feeding an extra meal altogether instead of larger meals. Sometimes small dogs have a hard time eating large quantities of food in one sitting.


----------



## Celt (Dec 27, 2010)

I haven't notice a huge weight loss in the IGs. Blaise has thinned a little, you can barely see a couple backbones and the very tip of his hip bones which is good. Scotty doesn't look like he's lost any weight, I'll know for sure when I can get them to a scale. Dal, on the other hand, has lost weight but I guess that could be attributed to his age. I've tried offering 2 meals but none of them want to eat during the day, mostly due to the heat although it hasn't been bad, only hit the 100s twice so far which is really good. But I give small portions at a time and that seems to help.


----------



## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

Celt said:


> The pups aren't really pups. Blaise is going to be 3 at the end of July and Scotty will be 2 a day after Blaise. Both of them have good teeth and it's the breed's trouble with teeth that I decided to go raw. The Old Man is an almost 18yr old Golden Retriever. The vet says that for his age he's in good shape. He use to eat chicken leg quarters no problem, then I had to cut them in "half", then I cut the meat off and then give him the bones which he may or may not eat, now he gets the meat from the quarters and a chicken neck (2 if he'll eat them). They've been sorta on raw since March. They were getting cooked meat with kibble along with the raw chicken, at different times. They've never had premade raw. It wasn't long before the Old Man stopped eating the kibble and would only eat meat. I've been feeding pork spareribs for the last 2 weeks. All of them prefer "cooked" meat over raw <sigh> even now I have to "sear" the meat to get them to eat it. I can't tough love Blaise because he's hypoglecmic, and I won't do it with the Old Man because of his age which leaves me feeling horrible about trying it with Scotty. I'm at a loss. I know that I can't go back to kibble/can because none of them will touch it now, and I'm not sure if I could do the cooked meal right. It sounds pretty complicated. They are eating if the meat's seared a little. It's just not very much. On a really good day, Dal (the Old Man) might eat 16 oz (which is just barely 2% of his weight), Blaise (the best eater) may eat 3 oz (which is his 2%), and Scotty might eat 2 oz (which is only half of his 2% amount).But on the calculator page, 2% is for losing weight which Dal and Scotty do not need, Blaise could stand to lose about a lb/lb and a half. Sorry to be such a bother.
> I haven't fed the Pet Botanics since I've started with feeding real meats.



first off, you're NOT being a bother...many of us go through things and that's what this forum is for....to help.

at eighteen, i think the old man should eat whatever he wants.... 

let me ask you:

would it make the dogs and your life better if you just cooked for them?

it's not a bad thing, honest.....ask yourself that and if the answer is 

whew, i'd feel SO MUCH BETTER and the DARNED dogs would eat....then let's get a home cooked diet together....

i used to cook for my dogs before my dogs went raw....but i never had the problems you're having.....they took to raw immediately...and whilst i have an older dog, she certainly isn't 18..which is like a doggie miracle...

meal time shouldn't have to be a chore and a frustration...

if cook works better for you and the dogs, then let's do cooked. 

cause i'm reading what you're saying and i want a drink.


----------



## JayJayisme (Aug 2, 2009)

magicre said:


> if we look at the ingredients in pet botanicals meat rolls:
> 
> Ingredients:
> Beef Hearts, Beef Kidneys, Beef Lungs, Whole Wheat Flour, Brown Rice, Wheat Bran, Beef Fat (preserved with Mixed Tocopherols and Citric Acid), Sucrose, Flaxseed Meal, Calcium Carbonate, Sodium Chloride, Modified Food Starch, Sodium Phosphates, Water, Brewer's Yeast, Dried Kelp Meal, Lecithin, Natural Smoke Flavor, Sorbic Acid, Glycerin, Rosemary Extract, Canola Oil, Choline Chloride Supplement, Ferrous Sulfate, Riboflaven Supplement, Vitamin B-12 Supplement, Vitamin A Acetate, Folic Acid Supplement, D-Calcium Pantothenate, Thiamine Mononitrate, D-Biotin Supplement, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride, Potassium Iodide, D-Activated Animal Sterols (Source of Vitamin D3) Biotin, Sodium Nitrate (for color), Sodium Selenite.


This is nothing but uncooked kibble.


----------



## Celt (Dec 27, 2010)

magicre--I've been thinking about what you said and I think that a home cooked diet may be less stressful. At least, I hope so. So, I guess I should go over to the cooking side of the forum. Would it be okay to give a raw meal or two, just to 1. give them bones to chew on for their teeth and 2. to see if maybe they would someday switch to raw?

Thanks to everyone who helped me out


----------



## DaneMama (Jun 27, 2008)

Some raw is better than none if your dogs can handle the back and forth between raw and cooked.


----------



## monkeys23 (Dec 8, 2010)

I agree, if they can handle it home cooked with rmb's a few times a week for teeth cleaning would be a great idea.


----------



## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

before you leave us to go to the home cooked section....here's what i fed my dogs...

i took beef, cheapest fattiest cut on sale that i could find....chicken, raw sardines, pork butt and any other protein i had in the house or bought...and boiled the crap out of it.....skimming the scummy fat, but leaving the good fat....in the broth.

and to that i added quinoa..it's the only grain that has protein and my dogs did well on it....perhaps a cup or two, but that was it.

i separately cooked veggies and then pureed them, so i could give their food bulk. i did not add veggies for nutrients, rather, i added them for bulk....to help their stools....

the breakdown was about 75% protein and 20% veggies/quinoa and 5% liver/kidney....

i did NOT cook the bones from the chicken....i have heard one can cook them until they are mush, but i don't subscribe to that, nor do i own a pressure cooker, so i didn't do that..you may find recipes that show you how to cook edible bone so it's still edible, even though it's cooked...i just didn't do it....i also either used NOW bone meal which is human grade or ground egg shell which i believe is 1/2 tsp per 900 mg of food...i also threw in punctured salmon oil gel caps, minus the gelcap and i used berte's green and immune blend for added supplementation...which i felt they needed with a cooked diet....

what i ended up with, once it cooled down, i broke it all apart with my fingers, kept the broth and put them in bags and froze them.

as to bones? at the time, i wasn't doing raw, so my dogs had bully sticks and antlers...

if i were to go back to home cooking? i would give them stripped down beef ribs...so they can get tooth work out of them, even if it meant searing just a little....

and that's my recipe...they did very well on it but i'm sure others will have better ones for you....


----------



## Celt (Dec 27, 2010)

Thanks again everybody. I'm definitely going to keep trying on raw. It sounds so much easier to get the right nutrients. Now if only they would cooperate :0P I think they'll be able to switch back and forth, we've been changing foods on them without any transitioning since they were pups, so they're pretty good stomache wise. Again thank you for all your support


----------



## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

Celt said:


> Thanks again everybody. I'm definitely going to keep trying on raw. It sounds so much easier to get the right nutrients. Now if only they would cooperate :0P I think they'll be able to switch back and forth, we've been changing foods on them without any transitioning since they were pups, so they're pretty good stomache wise. Again thank you for all your support


if ever you decide to try raw again.....the beginning is the only time when you won't be switching foods on them....you'll be giving them chicken backs....and that's it.....very uncomplicated but only with cooperative dogs. i hope at some point, you decide to give it another try....good luck to you and good on you for trying


----------



## chowder (Sep 7, 2008)

Chelsy is old (14 1/2) and eats both raw and cooked without a problem. She gets raw chicken that is ground up complete with bones because she can't chew bones. Then she gets things like beef, pork, and chicken breast that is cut into cubes and seared in a pan. I sear it for her because frankly, that is the way she is willing to eat it. I don't think she has much sense of smell left and she doesn't seem to like it completely raw so it gets seared a bit for her and she gets fed it with a little of the juices. She also gets canned tuna and sardines that she gobbles up and scrambled eggs. She gets NO vegies or fruits or grains. I think the bones in the ground raw chicken are enough bulk for her and at her age, she actually seems to need less in the way of bulk then the younger boys. 

As she gets older, I cater to her more and more. Right now I am hand feeding her because it seems to hurt her neck to bend down to the floor. I am looking into getting one of those raised feeders so she is more comfortable eating. You do whatever you have to do for the old furbabies......even making them special food and hand feeding them! As I am too well aware, they don't last forever and it's up to us to make their older days enjoyable for them!


----------



## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

chowder said:


> Chelsy is old (14 1/2) and eats both raw and cooked without a problem. She gets raw chicken that is ground up complete with bones because she can't chew bones. Then she gets things like beef, pork, and chicken breast that is cut into cubes and seared in a pan. I sear it for her because frankly, that is the way she is willing to eat it. I don't think she has much sense of smell left and she doesn't seem to like it completely raw so it gets seared a bit for her and she gets fed it with a little of the juices. She also gets canned tuna and sardines that she gobbles up and scrambled eggs. She gets NO vegies or fruits or grains. I think the bones in the ground raw chicken are enough bulk for her and at her age, she actually seems to need less in the way of bulk then the younger boys.
> 
> As she gets older, I cater to her more and more. Right now I am hand feeding her because it seems to hurt her neck to bend down to the floor. I am looking into getting one of those raised feeders so she is more comfortable eating. You do whatever you have to do for the old furbabies......even making them special food and hand feeding them! As I am too well aware, they don't last forever and it's up to us to make their older days enjoyable for them!


well, that brought a tear to my eye, because my girl is just about to hit twelve and i find myself not making her do things i would have in the past...i hand feed her her fish and i cut it up for her....i wouldn't have done that a year ago...but there's something special about the number 11 and 12, because now i can't say she's not old anymore.....sigh...

i'm glad you do what you do for chowder....and not defend....nor should you...she's a wonderful looking dog and now that she's on the back slope...it's your pleasure to do for her....mad respect, chowder, mad respect.


----------



## Celt (Dec 27, 2010)

Oh, I definitely "cater" to the Old Man. We use a couple "tall" plastic storage tubs to raise up his food and water dish, he has a couple of "foam" floor tiles (the kind used for work/play areas) in front of his food dish so his feet don't slide out from under him, not that he eats out of the dish anymore but he still goes to HIS spot at meal times. He no longer needs to do anything to get a treat. Not even get up to get it, we've actually taken it over to him just because he looked up when he heard the bag rattle :0)


----------



## PDXdogmom (Jun 30, 2010)

magicre said:


> before you leave us to go to the home cooked section....here's what i fed my dogs...
> 
> i took beef, cheapest fattiest cut on sale that i could find....chicken, raw sardines, pork butt and any other protein i had in the house or bought...and boiled the crap out of it.....skimming the scummy fat, but leaving the good fat....in the broth.
> 
> ...


I was interested to read in how you put a home-cooked meal together. I'm tempted to try it for one meal a day as opposed to feeding some kibble with some cooked at both meals. Not to detract from the original thread, but would you see supplements being needed in a case of kibble at one meal and home-cooked for the other meal. I already give human grade salmon oil once a day.


----------



## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

i think that kibble has plenty of supplementation....as i continue to read ingredients in dog foods...i'm noticing more and more that instead of chemicals, fruits and veggies and herbs are being used.....the one that stuck out for me was the use of marigolds...or calendula......and the health benefits are long and involved, from cancer to bruises to forming blood vessels, etc....and that's just one of the ingredients in some high end kibble....

given that there are companies out there trying to fulfill vitamin and mineral needs in dogs through kibble or pre made raws...

my answer is no, i would not supplement a pre made raw because the supplementation is already contained, nor would i supplement, other than maybe salmon oil....a kibble diet, which has supplementation in it, also...that's not a knock on kibble or pre made raws...that's a compliment. there are some companies that are really trying to give dogs what they need in terms of vitamins and minerals.....that some are misplaced and not needed is not even the point, as the dog will pee them out...since they are water soluble, but if the dog has a use for these in kibble or premade, then thank you champion, ziwipeak, etc....for providing it.


----------



## PDXdogmom (Jun 30, 2010)

Thanks magicre - appreciate the feedback.


----------

