# shocking video on pet foods!



## nupe

*Warning....*not only will you be shocked but appaled from video...But you need to see this!!!



Does Your Dog Food Include Euthanized Dog?


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## SerenityFL

Jeez...that was hard to watch. I always suspected that the rumors were true. And it makes me tear up thinking about how I got my cat euthanized after he got old and was sick...and didn't take him home...did he end up in a pile of dead bodies, get ground up and then put in to pet food? UGH! Makes me sick to my stomach and heart to think about it. I'm sorry, Xaxu. I should have brought you home and buried you.

Even when I didn't know much about pet food, I always wondered what, exactly, "protein meal" and "meat meal" really was. 

All I can hope for is that people continue to wake up and see what is going on and change their pets' diets. 

(And I could never do that job no matter how desperate for work I was.)

Edit: What also ticks me off about this is that if you go to the butcher at the store and ask them to give you pieces of meat they aren't selling, that they are going to throw away, so you can give it to your pets, they won't give it to you. But they are more than happy to give away those pieces as well as their garbage and let it be put in to pet food. WTF!


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## nupe

I know this is the pet food side of the forum...but people....its time to think about going RAW ..I mean seriously give it some thought for those who dont already!!


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## hmbutler

SerenityFL said:


> Edit: What also ticks me off about this is that if you go to the butcher at the store and ask them to give you pieces of meat they aren't selling, that they are going to throw away, so you can give it to your pets, they won't give it to you. But they are more than happy to give away those pieces as well as their garbage and let it be put in to pet food. WTF!


Yes, how annoying is that! They throw away perfectly good meat for dogs instead of putting it to good use!

I actually didn't watch the video... I saw the title and decided against it!


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## RCTRIPLEFRESH5

What about Pedigree for dogs and Whiskas for cats?﻿ These are considered high quality pet foods. Are they legit?
Spirituality1980 6 months ago


nupe said:


> *Warning....*not only will you be shocked but appaled from video...But you need to see this!!!
> 
> 
> 
> Does Your Dog Food Include Euthanized Dog?


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## wags

I've decided not to watch this video. Some things I just can't stomach and from what I am reading this is one of them! Now exactly what dog foods is this in then. I just cant watch it sorry guys!


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## Unosmom

Ok... I doubt anyone on this forum actually feeds 4-D meats or unnamed meat and bone meals. I find this post to be inflamattory and offensive, if someone chose to feed kibble, its their choice. If you want to post this, post in in general topic forum. I'm sure you'd get offended if I went to a raw section and said " its time to think about switching back to kibble.." for whatever reason.


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## 1605

Unosmom said:


> Ok... I doubt anyone on this forum actually feeds 4-D meats or unnamed meat and bone meals. I find this post to be inflamattory and offensive, if someone chose to feed kibble, its their choice. If you want to post this, post in in general topic forum. I'm sure you'd get offended if I went to a raw section and said " its time to think about switching back to kibble.." for whatever reason.


Agreed!

Personally, I couldn't bring myself to watch the video. 

*However, I submitted the link/video to Snopes & asked them to verify it. 

*


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## RawFedDogs

Unosmom said:


> Ok... I doubt anyone on this forum actually feeds 4-D meats or unnamed meat and bone meals.


Actually you will be surprised. There are 4-D meats and other unnamed things in all kibbles. For example ... a named meal only has to have more than half it's contents come from the named animal. Chicken meal can be called chicken meal if over 1/2 the ingredients are chicken. You can have 49% other stuff including 4-D meats and it still be called chicken meal. Actually I have no problem feeding my dogs 4-D meats. I have many times.

I don't find this thread inflamitory at all. I find it informative. It's about dry and canned dog food and I don't know another forum it would be more suited for. If I had been the person starting this thread this is where I'd put it.


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## DaneMama

Ive moved this thread so that feelings aren't hurt. Even though this video is based on factual evidence. It's a part of kibble feeding that is a reality.


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## maplewood

I admit I do feed my kids beef that is unfit for human consumption. It's meat and bone that did not pass inspection for whatever reason. I might add the boxes say USDA Inspected and NOT FOR HUMAN CONSUPTION. So when a kibble manufacturer states the meat used is USDA inspected, it doesn't mean the meat passed the inspection.

It's the only way I can afford to feed them beef at all and I know it's beef and beef bone. I know some of the local grey hound racers and they feed it almost exclussively.


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## RawFedDogs

There was sufficient warning in the OP and the people who would be offended didn't watch the video and thats what should happen. But to not watch the video but still ask that it be moved isn't reasonable. If people read the OP, choose to watch the video and still get offended, I don't have sympathy for them, either. Sometimes people wll get their feelings hurt and sometimes people will be offended. Thats part of life. It's not the end of the world.


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## nupe

Unosmom said:


> Ok... I doubt anyone on this forum actually feeds 4-D meats or unnamed meat and bone meals. I find this post to be inflamattory and offensive, if someone chose to feed kibble, its their choice. If you want to post this, post in in general topic forum. I'm sure you'd get offended if I went to a raw section and said " its time to think about switching back to kibble.." for whatever reason.



nooo I would want to know the information RAW FOOD or KIBBLE !! I did not make the video was just sharing the information. Truth hurts sometime though I know!!


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## nupe

RawFedDogs said:


> There was sufficient warning in the OP and the people who would be offended didn't watch the video and thats what should happen. But to not watch the video but still ask that it be moved isn't reasonable. If people read the OP, choose to watch the video and still get offended, I don't have sympathy for them, either. Sometimes people wll get their feelings hurt and sometimes people will be offended. Thats part of life. It's not the end of the world.


Uh Oh Raw fed ..be careful you will be called rude and insisitive, by even remotely agreeing with me...At least someone around here has some guts to say what they feel!! there actually is hope!!


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## magicre

unfortunately, i know of raw feeders who feed road kill and 4d meat....

i have known for a long time that dog food in kibble form has used euthanised and 4d meat...and yes, euthanised dogs.....are used, too.

i wish people did not find this offensive, but educating...

we all have choices, that is true.

making informed decisions is also a responsibility we have as dog and cat owners when it comes to feeding our dogs.

i don't know where this was posted originally. apparently, it has been moved....


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## nupe

magicre said:


> unfortunately, i know of raw feeders who feed road kill and 4d meat....
> 
> i have known for a long time that dog food in kibble form has used euthanised and 4d meat...and yes, euthanised dogs.....are used, too.
> 
> i wish people did not find this offensive, but educating...
> 
> we all have choices, that is true.
> 
> making informed decisions is also a responsibility we have as dog and cat owners when it comes to feeding our dogs.
> 
> i don't know where this was posted originally. apparently, it has been moved....




Yes I wonder what happened to the thread??...Oh Danes Mama......Hello!!!!.... i found it at the bottom of my home screen under recently added comments section, but I do not see it under any topic thread.


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## Ethel

When I found out that they use 4D for making kibble, I wasn't offended, but it was an eye opening for me. 
So I started to look for an alternative - which for me was raw diet. I think that the truth should be spoken loud and clear, so everybody can make an informative decision. 
If someone decide to feed kibble or raw it is his/her decision, but if we hide the truth what good of it?


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## Unosmom

I dont find the video itself offensive, just how it was presented.


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## RCTRIPLEFRESH5

what exactly makes snops the authority on myth vs fact?


SubMariner said:


> Agreed!
> 
> Personally, I couldn't bring myself to watch the video.
> 
> *However, I submitted the link/video to Snopes & asked them to verify it.
> 
> *


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## RCTRIPLEFRESH5

rfd says 4d meat is ok..i'd be interested to hear why. i thought there were members here who had no problem with roadkill?


magicre said:


> unfortunately, i know of raw feeders who feed road kill and 4d meat....
> 
> i have known for a long time that dog food in kibble form has used euthanised and 4d meat...and yes, euthanised dogs.....are used, too.
> 
> i wish people did not find this offensive, but educating...
> 
> we all have choices, that is true.
> 
> making informed decisions is also a responsibility we have as dog and cat owners when it comes to feeding our dogs.
> 
> i don't know where this was posted originally. apparently, it has been moved....


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## Tobi

There is a clear difference between an animal that was killed by a car tire and an animal that was killed by lethal injection.

I have fed roadkilled squirrel and rabbit, WHY? because it's free grass fed free range meat that was killed and shouldn't go to waste, generally the were only about 2 hours past dead and smelled fine wasn't bloated or anything, Tobi loved it.

I wouldn't feed him an animal knowing that it was killed with euthanasia. I've seen this video long ago when i was researching kibbles and stuff, it made me sick then, it makes me sick now, that's a fact of life when feeding kibbles is that there is a possibility there are 4-D meats in your animals food.


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## nupe

Unosmom said:


> I dont find the video itself offensive, just how it was presented.


How did I present it?

*Warning....not only will you be shocked but appaled from video...But you need to see this!!!*


*I know this is the pet food side of the forum...but people....its time to think about going RAW ..I mean seriously give it some thought for those who dont already!! *.

..and I stand by the above statement, its just my opnion and "not the opinion of the dogfoodforum"!


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## xellil

Heck, when I was young and destitute, WE ate roadkilled deer.


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## Caty M

Yes, I also would not feed Lethal injection killed meat.. but roadkill would be fine. Chemicals are more dangerous than some slightly stinky meat.


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## RCTRIPLEFRESH5

Tobi said:


> There is a clear difference between an animal that was killed by a car tire and an animal that was killed by lethal injection.
> 
> I have fed roadkilled squirrel and rabbit, WHY? because it's free grass fed free range meat that was killed and shouldn't go to waste, generally the were only about 2 hours past dead and smelled fine wasn't bloated or anything, Tobi loved it.
> 
> I wouldn't feed him an animal knowing that it was killed with euthanasia. I've seen this video long ago when i was researching kibbles and stuff, it made me sick then, it makes me sick now, that's a fact of life when feeding kibbles is that there is a possibility there are 4-D meats in your animals food.


lol when i first heard about euthanized dogs being in kibble I was more disgusted that dead animals were in kibble than the fact they were euthanized. But reading this post I realize that was kind of the wrong reason to be concerned....hA dogs are carnovores. after alls.


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## FL Cracker

RCTRIPLEFRESH5 said:


> what exactly makes snops the authority on myth vs fact?


Snopes.com is a Scam... 
Snopes.com is a Scam >> Four Winds 10 - fourwinds10.com

To the OP, thanks for the link...certainly had no idea that they could get away with doing crap like that to kibble...just confirms that I made the right decision switching to raw.


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## RawFedDogs

nupe said:


> Uh Oh Raw fed ..be careful you will be called rude and insisitive, by even remotely agreeing with me


Don't you know that insensivity is my trademark? :biggrin:


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## 1605

RCTRIPLEFRESH5 said:


> what exactly makes snops the authority on myth vs fact?


Snopes are arguably the best source for debunking or verifying whether or not something is factual or true. The are famous for showing how just about anything can be fabricated or made into an urban myth.

You know how there are always those emails being forwarded to you with a sad story or someone sends you an "amazing" picture? Well, if you go to Snopes you can usually find out whether or not it's true.

They are not funded by anyone, don't work for anyone (except the themselves & by extension the public at large) and have no political, religious or other agenda. They are simply interested in the truth.

You can check them out here: snopes.com: Urban Legends Reference Pages


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## frogdog

I have seen undercover footage like this before and find it very eye opening regarding the pet food industry. I think it's important for people to know and see what is actually in the food they are feeding their dogs/cats. I feel it's being a knowledgeable and responsible pet owner...proactive. 

For any that read too much into the reference of "responsible pet owner"...no I do not think you are being irresponsible pet owner's if your choice is not to watch it... just remember knowledge is power.


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## Scarlett_O'

I chose not to watch it today.....however I know what it is, I have watched it once.....it is disgusting and VERY VERY eye opening!!


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## Porphyria

FL Cracker said:


> Snopes.com is a Scam...
> Snopes.com is a Scam >> Four Winds 10 - fourwinds10.com
> 
> To the OP, thanks for the link...certainly had no idea that they could get away with doing crap like that to kibble...just confirms that I made the right decision switching to raw.


Just because the people behind Snopes aren't lawyers or journalists doesn't mean they can't/don't do legitimate research. The website quoted is hardly a credible source on anything; it's nothing but a conspiracy theory blog. And it's extremely anti-semitic--one of the reasons the author of the article doesn't trust Snopes is because the people behind it are (gasp!) Jewish! I could never take seriously anything written on a site that has a page like this. 

Regarding the OP, I agree the use of 4d animals in pet food is definitely something to be concerned about. However I am skeptical about the claim that euthanized pets are the source of the phenobarbitol in the tested foods. The FDA did a study where they analyzed the DNA of the animal sources of foods that tested positive for phenobarbitol, and didn't find a shred of dog, cat or horse DNA.
CVM Scientists Develop PCR Test to Determine Source of Animal Products in Feed, Pet Food


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## Ethel

Porphyria said:


> The FDA did a study where they analyzed the DNA of the animal sources of foods that tested positive for phenobarbitol, and didn't find a shred of dog, cat or horse DNA.
> CVM Scientists Develop PCR Test to Determine Source of Animal Products in Feed, Pet Food


Even if in the kibble which was tested they didn't find dogs and cats, they found phenobarbitol - which is used for euthanizing animals.


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## nupe

RawFedDogs said:


> Don't you know that insensivity is my trademark? :biggrin:



^5 sir!!! lol


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## nupe

frogdog said:


> i have seen undercover footage like this before and find it very eye opening regarding the pet food industry. I think it's important for people to know and see what is actually in the food they are feeding their dogs/cats. I feel it's being a knowledgeable and responsible pet owner...proactive.
> 
> For any that read too much into the reference of "responsible pet owner"...no i do not think you are being irresponsible pet owner's if your choice is not to watch it... Just remember knowledge is power.



well said!!


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## CorgiPaws

If this video OFFENDS you, then you ought to reconsider what you feed. 

I would not have moved the thread because it is completely about kibble. Turning the other cheek or getting pissed about it does not make it any less of a reality.


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## Porphyria

Ethel said:


> Even if in the kibble which was tested they didn't find dogs and cats, they found phenobarbitol - which is used for euthanizing animals.


Oh I know that's why I noted that the use of 4d meat is definitely a concern. The phenobarbitol likely came from euthanized livestock. I'm not arguing that euthanized animals are used in some pet food, I'm just skeptical about it being euthanized _ pets._


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## FL Cracker

Porphyria said:


> Just because the people behind Snopes aren't lawyers or journalists doesn't mean they can't/don't do legitimate research.


Oh, I agree...but just like a lot of internet "information", I know that Snopes is not the end all be all answer to whether it's actually true or not.
I don't care if an alien owns the site...just do your homework before buying into "It say's so on Snopes, so it's fact". 
I apologize if my statement came off the wrong way...not my intention...and hope I didn't offend ya...it was geared towards "do your homework" before believing any one resource.
Back to our regular scheduled programming.


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## xellil

If the penobarbitol didn't come from cats, dogs, or horses - where DID it come from? 

_"In fact, the PCR results on the species of origin in the various dog food samples do not support a single point source of protein for the origin of the pentobarbital."_

So basically, their study is saying the drug came from nowhere. Which we all know can't be true.


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## Porphyria

FL Cracker said:


> Oh, I agree...but just like a lot of internet "information", I know that Snopes is not the end all be all answer to whether it's actually true or not.
> I don't care if an alien owns the site...just do your homework before buying into "It say's so on Snopes, so it's fact".
> I apologize if my statement came off the wrong way...not my intention...and hope I didn't offend ya...it was geared towards "do your homework" before believing any one resource.
> Back to our regular scheduled programming.


Oh yeah I totally agree; you always have to be wary of anything you read on the internet. Too often people do internet research using iffy sources and then think they're on expert on whatever they've read about. The internet can be a helpful tool but it's important to always have your b.s. detector on! I'm sorry if _ my _ post came off as snarky lol.


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## SerenityFL

Porphyria said:


> Regarding the OP, I agree the use of 4d animals in pet food is definitely something to be concerned about. However I am skeptical about the claim that euthanized pets are the source of the phenobarbitol in the tested foods. The FDA did a study where they analyzed the DNA of the animal sources of foods that tested positive for phenobarbitol, and didn't find a shred of dog, cat or horse DNA.
> CVM Scientists Develop PCR Test to Determine Source of Animal Products in Feed, Pet Food


Did you watch the video? If so, just where do you think all of those dogs were going? That's not a landfill.


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## RawFedDogs

Porphyria said:


> The phenobarbitol likely came from euthanized livestock.


They don't use pentobarbtol to euthanize lifestock. I forget right now what the name of the stuff is that they do use.

*ETA:*To correct spelling after reading re's post. :biggrin:


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## magicre

SerenityFL said:


> Did you watch the video? If so, just where do you think all of those dogs were going? That's not a landfill.


i was going to say that...if i multiply how many dogs are killed in kill shelters and vet's offices per day....i have to wonder where they go if the owner doesn't cremate them.

we were told they go into a landfill and then i have to wonder how many landfills there would have to be to take care of the millions of dogs being euthanised daily, which is what i read in the papers, so it must be true.

and if that's the case, it makes no sense, so i have no problem believing that euthanised animals go into kibble and canned food. after all, the head of aafco wasn't aware that sneakers are a part of dog food....and i believe that, too.

it's my belief system and i think i'm going to keep it. mainly because it makes sense. and if something makes sense to me, then there is a probable truth. 

am i definitely sure? no. i wasn't there. 

on the other hand, there are those who really do want to expose these corporate structures about food, both for dogs and for humans.

if stores can't buy 4D animals, who is buying them? surely they aren't going into a landfill, are they? no cattleman in his right mind would just throw the dead cow/steer/name protein here away.....when they can make money from the sale of said animal. 

as far as roadkill is concerned.....that's a personal choice, i believe, just as feeding 4D animal food...and i know of raw feeders who feed 4D animals, too, so it's not just about kibble and canned.....

what i don't see are raw feeders giving their dogs ground up sneakers and plastic and euthanised animals....if pentobarbitol is found, it is a drug used in euthanisation....this is not phenobarbitol. it is pentobarbitol. different.

in the end, however, it's everyone's choice to keep the blinders on or take them off and say so what or take them off and make a change for their pets....

i, for one, will feed raw meat to my dogs and hopefully the source will not be 4D animals.


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## Porphyria

xellil said:


> If the penobarbitol didn't come from cats, dogs, or horses - where DID it come from?
> 
> _"In fact, the PCR results on the species of origin in the various dog food samples do not support a single point source of protein for the origin of the pentobarbital."_
> 
> So basically, their study is saying the drug came from nowhere. Which we all know can't be true.


What they're saying there is that this study was to determine the exactly what are the ingredients in pet food that contains phenobarbitol; they couldn't determine which of those ingredients were actually linked with the drug. I think it's likely that it came from euthanized livestock, but for the FDA to make such a claim without the proper testing would be bad science. The purpose of this test was to find out the ingredients in pet food, not to pinpoint exactly which ingredients are linked to the drug.


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## RawFedDogs

magicre said:


> no cattleman in his right mind would just throw the dead cow/steer/name protein here away.....when they can make money from the sale of said animal.


When a cow dies in the pasture around here, the farmer will take his back hoe (every farmer has one), digs a hole and drags the cow into it. I assume this doesn't happen in the feed lot or at the slaughter house.


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## Porphyria

The video quality was really poor and I admit I couldn't make out a lot of what was going on. How do we know that those animals were at a rendering facility and not, say, a crematorium?


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## Porphyria

RawFedDogs said:


> They don't use pentobarbtol to euthanize lifestock. I forget right now what the name of the stuff is that they do use.
> 
> *ETA:*To correct spelling after reading re's post. :biggrin:


There are a number of drugs that can be used, but pentobarbital the drug commonly used to euthanize cattle.

http://www.google.com/m/url?ei=F3Rv...gQFjAC&usg=AFQjCNHd3jdCDkCyF2KcLjLapSgm652S8Q

edit: oops, had to correct my spelling too!


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## xellil

Porphyria said:


> What they're saying there is that this study was to determine the exactly what are the ingredients in pet food that contains phenobarbitol; they couldn't determine which of those ingredients were actually linked with the drug. I think it's likely that it came from euthanized livestock, but for the FDA to make such a claim without the proper testing would be bad science. The purpose of this test was to find out the ingredients in pet food, not to pinpoint exactly which ingredients are linked to the drug.


That doesn't make sense - it can't be "to determine the exactly what are the ingredients in pet food that contains phenobarbitol" and also "to find out the ingredients in pet food, not to pinpoint exactly which ingredients are linked to the drug" - those are opposite statements.

The study appeared to be to determine if cats, dogs, or horses were ingredients as a possible source of the drug. It didn't find any of those animals, which said where the drug doesn't come from, but doesn't address where it DOES come from. It has to come from somewhere.


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## 1605

Porphyria said:


> Just because the people behind Snopes aren't lawyers or journalists doesn't mean they can't/don't do legitimate research. The website quoted is hardly a credible source on anything; it's nothing but a conspiracy theory blog. And it's extremely anti-semitic--one of the reasons the author of the article doesn't trust Snopes is because the people behind it are (gasp!) Jewish! I could never take seriously anything written on a site that has a page like this.


My sentiments exactly, Porphyria. If ANY website has less credibility than Fourwinds, I'd be hard pressed to find it. Nothing like perpetuating racist, anti-semitic, hide-in-the-attic-in-your-tinfoil-hat rhetoric to show how unbiased and believable you are. :suspicious:


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## xellil

Are they given drugs at all? I thought they were shot in the skull with the gun that has a bolt that goes into their brain and kills them instantly.


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## Porphyria

xellil said:


> That doesn't make sense - it can't be "to determine the exactly what are the ingredients in pet food that contains phenobarbitol" and also "to find out the ingredients in pet food, not to pinpoint exactly which ingredients are linked to the drug" - those are opposite statements.
> 
> The study appeared to be to determine if cats, dogs, or horses were ingredients as a possible source of the drug. It didn't find any of those animals, which said where the drug doesn't come from, but doesn't address where it DOES come from. It has to come from somewhere.


I'm sorry if my wording was confusing. What I was trying to say is that they have these batches of food that tested positive for pentobarbital, and they did a DNA test to see which animal sources are in the food. They did not (perhaps could not) determine which of those ingredients actually contained the drug. They can't make a claim without having actual evidence for it so they slapped that disclaimer on there. This is very common in scientific literature. They aren't saying that the drug came from nowhere, just that they couldn't pinpoint which of the animal sources they found contained it.


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## Porphyria

xellil said:


> Are they given drugs at all? I thought they were shot in the skull with the gun that has a bolt that goes into their brain and kills them instantly.


There are number of ways livestock euthanasia is done, including guns, bolt guns, and drugs. The pdf I linked to in a previous post has more info on it.

Edit: sorry for all these double posts; I'm on my phone which makes it really hard to copy/paste and quote multiple things in the same posts. Feel free to combine some of these if you want, mods.


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## RawFedDogs

Thats in the slaughterhouse. We are talking about in the feedlot and before they actually go to slaughter in the slaughterhouse.

Actually, the slaughterhouse I visited about 30 years ago they were hit in the skull with a slegdehammer type device and knocked unconcious. They were then hanged up by their hind legs and their throat cut while they were still alive but unconcious. This allowed the heart to help pump blood out of the body.


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## magicre

RawFedDogs said:


> When a cow dies in the pasture around here, the farmer will take his back hoe (every farmer has one), digs a hole and drags the cow into it. I assume this doesn't happen in the feed lot or at the slaughter house.


when a cow dies in a pasture around here, the farmer calls his broker buddy and the cow is slaughtered and sold to a guy who will sell to us, if we want.

why would a farmer bury a cow when he can make money from it, whether selling to brokers or selling to dog people.....


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## magicre

RawFedDogs said:


> They don't use pentobarbtol to euthanize lifestock. I forget right now what the name of the stuff is that they do use.
> 
> *ETA:*To correct spelling after reading re's post. :biggrin:


it would be too expensive to kill livestock using drugs, no matter how cheap the drugs are.

i believe carbon dioxide is used....also, with livestock.

sometimes sodium thiopental is used instead of pentobarbitol.

for large animals....it would be impractical to use barbiturates....there are some specially formulated drugs, tributamine, which is emtutramide/chloroquine/lidocaine....

gas inhalants, such as isoflurane and sevoflurane are probably used along with carbon dioxide in kill shelters....

cervical dislocation....

much easier to stun, hang, hit over head, whatever method they are using these days....electrocution is another way, from what i understand...

if the meat is kosher, then the animal has one swift cutting of the carotid artery with a knife by a moyel, who is trained in how to kill painlessly.

there's all kinds of ways to kill an animal, be it feed lot or farm raised.

http://www.animal-pounds.com/how_are_pets_killed_in_pounds_and_shelters.html


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## xellil

Porphyria said:


> They aren't saying that the drug came from nowhere, just that they couldn't pinpoint which of the animal sources they found contained it.


Then we are in agreement - they couldn't say where it came from - they could say where it did not come from. Which still doesn't answer the question. They didn't say it came from nowhere - I am saying they might as well have said that because if you don't know where it comes from, you can't track down and eliminate ANY source. It could have come from anywhere (except dogs, cats, or horses). 

I don't think they kill cattle with pentobarbitol. Then they talked about it maybe somehow being in beef fat - who is killing cattle like that? I don't think that's standard or accepted practice. Pentobarbitol is used for small animals, not big ones. Unless I am just way out there and don't know what's going on.

They did say levels of the drug might be associated with rendered or hydrolyzed animal products, and here is a list of the dog foods they tested:

FDA & Pentobarbitol

If I am not mistaken, those are all low quality dog foods.


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## Porphyria

RawFedDogs said:


> Thats in the slaughterhouse. We are talking about in the feedlot and before they actually go to slaughter in the slaughterhouse.
> 
> Actually, the slaughterhouse I visited about 30 years ago they were hit in the skull with a slegdehammer type device and knocked unconcious. They were then hanged up by their hind legs and their throat cut while they were still alive but unconcious. This allowed the heart to help pump blood out of the body.


Where do you see that it's only for slaughterhouses? 



> This pamphlet is designed to aid producers, livestock market operators, animal transporters and veterinarians in making the appropriate decisions regarding euthanasia in cattle.



And even if the pamphlet was geared toward slaughterhouses, how does that prove that cattle on farms /feedlots aren't euthanized with barbituates?


----------



## Porphyria

xellil said:


> Then we are in agreement - they couldn't say where it came from - they could say where it did not come from. Which still doesn't answer the question. They didn't say it came from nowhere - I am saying they might as well have said that because if you don't know where it comes from, you can't track down and eliminate ANY source. It could have come from anywhere (except dogs, cats, or horses).
> 
> I don't think they kill cattle with pentobarbitol. Then they talked about it maybe somehow being in beef fat - who is killing cattle like that? I don't think that's standard or accepted practice. Pentobarbitol is used for small animals, not big ones. Unless I am just way out there and don't know what's going on.
> 
> They did say levels of the drug might be associated with rendered or hydrolyzed animal products, and here is a list of the dog foods they tested:
> 
> FDA & Pentobarbitol
> 
> If I am not mistaken, those are all low quality dog foods.


I don't really understand. We agree that all they say is where the drug didn't come from...that was basically my only argument--that we shouldn't jump to the conclusion that the pentobarbital in pet food come from dead pets. The study supports my argument. I think it's terrible that pentobarbital is in there at all; regardless of where it comes from, it's not good. But it's disengenous for the video to claim that dog food is basically puppy soylent green without any actual evidence (and in fact, when there is evidence to the contrary).

Pet food companies have given us tons of reasons not to trust them, but still to believe every outlandish, unsubstantiated claim with no evidence just because we "wouldn't put it past them" is bad reasoning, especially when we disregard the actual science.

Edit: thanks for that link, xellil, I was curious about the actual brands that were found to have it.


----------



## xellil

Normally, one study isn't definitive. Especially when it's only 32 samples. If they tested 10,000 samples, from many different lots, I would feel alot better saying definitively there are no euthanized dogs or cats in our pet food. 

I don't know where it comes from. But it's coming from somewhere. It's not just appearing out of the blue. Whether it's from cats or cows, I'm not sure it matters. The odds are high that it's coming from an animal that was euthanized with the drug.

Maybe someone needs to go look at the process and see what they are putting into the food at the first - then they wouldn't have to use fancy lab tests to try to do it with a process of elimination. Oh, I forget - that's not a transparent process.


----------



## Porphyria

I'm disinclined to believe anything without evidence, but I understand where you're coming from. 

I agree; I'd love to see more studies on this and better regulation/testing of pet food in general.


----------



## SerenityFL

magicre said:


> if the meat is kosher, then the animal has one swift cutting of the carotid artery with a knife by a moyel, who is trained in how to kill painlessly.


I think I'm going to start eating kosher beef from now on.

Back to the topic: You know, I'm so fricken ticked off about this possibility that there is a strong part of me really wants to go work for a pet food manufacturer just so I can really know the truth. And I would tell the whole fricken world what I find.


----------



## magicre

SerenityFL said:


> I think I'm going to start eating kosher beef from now on.
> 
> Back to the topic: You know, I'm so fricken ticked off about this possibility that there is a strong part of me really wants to go work for a pet food manufacturer just so I can really know the truth. And I would tell the whole fricken world what I find.


who would believe you?

i think that's the problem with whistle blowers.....no offence at all meant.....no one believes them. 

i'm watching this thread, as it moves....

and people are resisting the notion that dead dogs are being put into dog food.....

go talk to anyone who works at a kill shelter. they'll tell you about the rendering trucks who come and pick up the dead animals on a 
daily or weekly basis...the dead, frozen animals...

where do the euthanised animals go from the vet's office? think there's a cemetery out back? no. they go to a place which is like a brokering house and they are frozen and then they go to the rendering plant...and that's how pentobarbitol is found in pet food....it's not a difficult leap to get from here to there.

people don't want to believe....just as we don't want to believe what is going on with the animals that we eat.....

it's so much more pleasant to go through life with blinders.....

i don't say this to offend anyone...i am one who wears blinders...i don't want to know....even though i know.


----------



## magicre

Porphyria said:


> I'm disinclined to believe anything without evidence, but I understand where you're coming from.
> 
> I agree; I'd love to see more studies on this and better regulation/testing of pet food in general.


i'd like to see some real ones.


----------



## RawFedDogs

magicre said:


> when a cow dies in a pasture around here, the farmer calls his broker buddy and the cow is slaughtered and sold to a guy who will sell to us, if we want.
> 
> why would a farmer bury a cow when he can make money from it, whether selling to brokers or selling to dog people.....


I don't buy that. Often a cow has been dead for 6 or 8 or even 12 hours before it's found. Then you have to spend another couple of hours butchering it or wait a few hours for someone to come out to haul it somewhere to be butcherd. I don't think the meat's going to be good. Also I THINK its illegal to sell 4-d cattle for human consumption and cows in this condition are definately nothing but 4-D.


----------



## magicre

RawFedDogs said:


> I don't buy that. Often a cow has been dead for 6 or 8 or even 12 hours before it's found. Then you have to spend another couple of hours butchering it or wait a few hours for someone to come out to haul it somewhere to be butcherd. I don't think the meat's going to be good. Also I THINK its illegal to sell 4-d cattle for human consumption and cows in this condition are definately nothing but 4-D.


you misunderstand or i didn't say it right...

...these cows are not sold for human use, but they are sold to rendering plants who supply dog food manufacturers and to brokers who turn around and sell the beef to dog owners...and that is not illegal. it is pet food.

i think you're also talking about larger farms...but i don't believe for one minute that there isn't a truck travelling the land, picking up the dead cattle or whatever and then trucking them to a rendering plant. 

it makes more sense to make a little less money than losing all the money.....


----------



## Unosmom

I didnt get a chance to go back and read, but I know that a lot of rendered animals end up as fertilizer and livestock feed, need to find the articles I saw online.


----------



## Porphyria

magicre said:


> and people are resisting the notion that dead dogs are being put into dog food.....
> 
> go talk to anyone who works at a kill shelter. they'll tell you about the rendering trucks who come and pick up the dead animals on a
> daily or weekly basis...the dead, frozen animals...
> 
> where do the euthanised animals go from the vet's office? think there's a cemetery out back? no. they go to a place which is like a brokering house and they are frozen and then they go to the rendering plant...and that's how pentobarbitol is found in pet food....it's not a difficult leap to get from here to there.


What evidence do you have that vets send euthanized pets to be rendered? The vets I know of send them to be incinerated.

I'd like to know more about the video--who put it out, etc. I've done a quick google search but only found a bunch of sites linking the video, no actual info in the video itself. If anybody has an info about where it came from, I'd love to know.


----------



## magicre

Porphyria said:


> What evidence do you have that vets send euthanized pets to be rendered? The vets I know of send them to be incinerated.
> 
> I'd like to know more about the video--who put it out, etc. I've done a quick google search but only found a bunch of sites linking the video, no actual info in the video itself. If anybody has an info about where it came from, I'd love to know.


i would love to know without a hint of a doubt, too.....

but in my heart, i feel it is true, which, for this group of people, understandably, is not enough in the way of evidence....i get that.


----------



## xellil

I believe it's pretty much determined that mad cow disease started with feeding cows brains and other parts of meat animals. No idea where the meat came from - in fact, some people believe that cows were fed _human _remains.


----------



## RawFedDogs

I just deleted 8 posts from this thread. If anyone has a problem with it, PM me.


----------



## Dude and Bucks Mamma

That was hard to watch. I just recently had my brittany put down (well, my parents in Cali did) and it breaks my heart and makes me sick to my stomach to think that this is what potentially happened to his body.

This is why I feed raw. This had a major impact on my decision. To think that I was feeding Dude other dogs for 7 1/2 years of his life... It just makes me sick to my stomach... And now I'm never going to be able to listen to Twinkle, Twinkle Little Star again without thinking of this video...


----------



## Love my lab

very much an eye opener for all my years of feeding kibble to dogs just "trusting" the package.....sickening! Thank GOD I feed raw and will continue too w/ each and every dog I get from here on out. And that is my story and I am sticking to it.


----------



## Scarlett_O'

Dude and Bucks Mamma said:


> That was hard to watch. I just recently had my brittany put down (well, my parents in Cali did) and it breaks my heart and makes me sick to my stomach to think that this is what potentially happened to his body.
> 
> This is why I feed raw. This had a major impact on my decision. To think that I was feeding Dude other dogs for 7 1/2 years of his life... It just makes me sick to my stomach... And now I'm never going to be able to listen to Twinkle, Twinkle Little Star again without thinking of this video...


I know....I was thinking the same thing about Clara Belle, or Basset who was put down in '07!!:Cry: Now....now Im not fit to go to work!!:frown:


----------



## RachelsaurusRexU

I work at a shelter, not a kill shelter, per se, but we do have to euthanize from time to time. We put the animals in a freezer, and when the freezer is full we call our crematorium. They pick up the animals (which aren't just cats and dogs, there are generally wild animals who were hit by cars or ill and dispatched by police officers) and mass cremate. Before this job, I worked at a vet hospital who uses the same crematorium. The vet that I use for my own animals also uses the same crematorium. I know people who have personally been to this crematorium and can vouch for the fact that they do indeed cremate the animals that they pick up. 

Can I say for certain that ALL vets and shelters do the same? No... But I honestly can't imagine that the vast majority of vets and shelters would ever willingly send the animals they euthanize off to be pet food. Maybe I'm being naive, but I honestly don't believe that it's a regular thing that occurs.


----------



## meggels

i really want to watch this, to educate myself, but i also don't think i can stomach it...


----------



## Dude and Bucks Mamma

RachelsaurusRexU said:


> I work at a shelter, not a kill shelter, per se, but we do have to euthanize from time to time. We put the animals in a freezer, and when the freezer is full we call our crematorium. They pick up the animals (which aren't just cats and dogs, there are generally wild animals who were hit by cars or ill and dispatched by police officers) and mass cremate. Before this job, I worked at a vet hospital who uses the same crematorium. The vet that I use for my own animals also uses the same crematorium. I know people who have personally been to this crematorium and can vouch for the fact that they do indeed cremate the animals that they pick up.
> 
> Can I say for certain that ALL vets and shelters do the same? No... But I honestly can't imagine that the vast majority of vets and shelters would ever willingly send the animals they euthanize off to be pet food. Maybe I'm being naive, but I honestly don't believe that it's a regular thing that occurs.


And I hope that's the case for a lot of vets and shelters, but it just isn't realistic. If we lived in a perfect world, this would be a non issue. But we don't. There are people and companies out there who just don't care. They are in it for the money and will do whatever they can do ensure that they are making the cheapest pet food they can to make the most profit. I would LOVE to think that my boy was taken to a crematorium. I would. But I just don't know. I don't live with my parents anymore and they were the ones who had my dog. Bringing him with me just wasn't an option because of my brothers and their attachment to him. He was perfectly happy with them anyway. Dude was the one who would have become depressed without me (like he did the year I was away for college). Because I can't physically visit this crematorium from Washington, I have no way of knowing. Would I take their word for it that they use a crematorium? No. I would not. Would I ever risk letting one of my dogs' bodies being thrown back into dog food? NO! Regardless of what our vet says, my boys will come home with me after that last visit be it to bury them in the backyard or in an urn.


----------



## frogdog

I can tell you from working with The Humane Society and having a close relationship with the AC and local vets...they did not use a crematorium. There was a gentleman that did two day runs a week picking up all deceased animals from the local shelter and vets. He personally told me on more than one occassion he was paid for evey animal he delivered...exactly who and where did he deliver...supposedly Clemson University was one place but he was very vague on where else. I could always tell he did not want to divulge any other info. I never thought or imagined that it could be for the exact reason this video was made.


Where I live now many vets including the one I go to use the crematorium in Lexington, SC.


----------



## xellil

Considering human nature, i don't think I am willing to give all vets the benefit of the doubt.

On the one hand, cremation - with a cost.

On the other hand - someone comes and picks up your dead animals, and PAYS you to do so. No fuss, no muss.

If I am not totally ethical or honest, which would i choose?


----------



## SanDee

I did not watch the video, but I know what it is about. I do believe that this occurs. The issue in my mind is one of ingredients. Do not feed your dog anything that has the word "animal" in front of it. If you are feeding a good quality kibble, it will not have animal fat, animal digest or animal byproducts. Also look at your treats carefully. I was feeding Pedigree breath busters. They contain animal fat, so I quit. The person who posted that chicken meal can have dog meat in it is misinformed.


----------



## gorge77

You can always pick up this book "Food Pets Die For: Shocking Facts About Pet Food." By Ann N. Martin. It contains comprehensive facts on what goes into making those pet foods.

I've shared this video & information on pet foods on my facebook but i guess my friends prefer to ignore. after all, ignorance is bliss.


----------



## xellil

the article on my animal control says the animals go to the dump.


----------



## barneysmom2510

Here's a video on Iams animal testing. It is just horrible that this kind of cruelty exists. I had no idea about the euthanized dogs I will never go back to kibble.

PETA TV:Iams: A Recipe for Cruelty


----------



## Tobi

barneysmom2510 said:


> Here's a video on Iams animal testing. It is just horrible that this kind of cruelty exists. I had no idea about the euthanized dogs I will never go back to kibble.
> 
> PETA TV:Iams: A Recipe for Cruelty


I can't really like anything that PETA says when they have articles full of untruth like this...

Vegan diets for dogs... because... after all, dogs are omnivores.

Meatless Meals for Dogs and Cats | PETA.org


----------



## barneysmom2510

I agree totally with you about many aspects of peta. .This however is an exception . I was showing there are many aspects of dog food companies that are terrible more people see the more they will think what they put in their dog's bowl.


----------



## Kat

The first video in this thread was sickening. Its reading/watching stuff like this that makes me happy I switched my dog to raw.


----------



## Caty M

If animals are being used for testing there HAS to be a higher standard of care for them. HOW people can work there, witness that every day and not do something is beyond me.


----------



## Tzubabies

I didn't watch the video, but does it really apply to ALL pet foods? What about Orijen? This is on their faq page:


_Q: HUMAN GRADE - Are ORIJEN ingredients human grade? 


A | 


All ORIJEN fresh meats (chicken, fish, turkey, eggs) are of table quality and passed fit for human consumption before arriving at Champion.

Our chicken, fish and turkey meals are produced exclusively from animals that are certified as fit for human consumption by the Canadian Food Inspection Agency (CFIA).
_


----------



## DaViking

Tzubabies said:


> I didn't watch the video, but does it really apply to ALL pet foods? What about Orijen? This is on their faq page:
> 
> 
> _Q: HUMAN GRADE - Are ORIJEN ingredients human grade?
> 
> 
> A |
> 
> 
> All ORIJEN fresh meats (chicken, fish, turkey, eggs) are of table quality and passed fit for human consumption before arriving at Champion.
> 
> Our chicken, fish and turkey meals are produced exclusively from animals that are certified as fit for human consumption by the Canadian Food Inspection Agency (CFIA).
> _


No it does not.


----------



## Tzubabies

DaViking said:


> No it does not.


So there ARE foods that the video does not apply to. That makes a BIG, BIG difference. My thought is that it's foods that contain animal fat, beef tallow, digest, meat and bone meal, etc.

I just bought a bag of Nutrisca Lamb and Chickpea a few days ago. It's a new food- grainfree and potato free; came out in 2010 I believe and is made by Dogswell. The ingredients look really good, but I didn't find any of the answers I was looking for on Dogswell's site. I just e-mailed them with a bunch of questions. If I don't like their answers then I'm just going to feed Orijen and call it a day.


----------



## meggels

Tzubabies- I really like Nutrisca  

During the power outage a few weeks ago I fed my frenchie the lamb & chickpea for a week and a half and his ears stayed gunk free (usually by the end of a week they are gross). He loved the food, had solid stools, but he was going 4-5 times a day...


----------



## KittyKat

Very happy to fed raw and to carefully source my meat...


----------



## Tzubabies

Meggels, I've never heard of anyone else feeding Nutrisca. It really does seem like a good food and sounds like a great backup for your Frenchie. By the way, I LOVE Frenchies! I haven't heard back from Dogswell customer service yet. I have a lot of questions. I think I'm just going to get on the phone with the company and ask away...

My questions:

Where are your ingredients sourced from? 
Are the meats USDA inspected *and* passed fit for human consumption? 
How do I know that 4D meats are not used in your foods? 
Is the menhaden fish meal preserved with ethoxyquin by the supplier or you? 
Are any of your foods rendered? 
What factory do you use? 
Does it belong to you? 
Is anything produced there that is NOT approved for human consumption?
What standards do you have for producing non contaminated food?


----------



## K9Pro

RawFedDogs said:


> Actually you will be surprised. There are 4-D meats and other unnamed things in all kibbles.


A very dangerous and incorrect generalized statement.

I feed kibble
no D meats

Please speak in factual data.


----------



## LilasMom

My opinion is, high quality kibble or not, unless you are there to see them make the food you can't be sure of what you are putting in your dogs mouths. Even when feeding brands like Orijen and Taste of the Wild I was still worried because I would really never know, and I would be so stressed from another pet food scare. SO glad I switched to raw. I know EXACTLY what my dogs are eating and I have no more stress about their health.


----------



## LilasMom

K9Pro said:


> A very dangerous and incorrect generalized statement.
> 
> I feed kibble
> no D meats
> 
> Please speak in factual data.


How it dangerous?


----------



## xellil

LilasMom said:


> How it dangerous?


I agree. I would think it dangerous to assume that there is not. Better safe than sorry.


----------



## dooneygirl09

I honestly must say, this is the reason I switched to raw. It wasnt that paticular video, but it WAS the 30 or so articles I read stating the same thing. Dont get me wrong, my whole life I was taught to feed kibble. It was the 'norm'. But after I read that there may very well be euthanized pets, road kill, and old, nasty meat thrown away by super markets, styrofoam and all, being put into my dogs food, I decided to switch. Im not saying that the good, more expensive dog food contain these items, but it IS proven that the cheap stuff does. Ignorance is bliss in most instances, but its still ignorance. I dont know, I read, and read and read more about doing the switch, and it was the best choice for me. I wouldnt feed my dog anything I wouldnt eat. Would you eat that kibble food? I know I wouldnt.


----------



## DaViking

LilasMom said:


> How it dangerous?


Because it is these kinds of 100% untrue comments that dumbs down the discussion.


----------



## xellil

DaViking said:


> Because it is these kinds of 100% untrue comments that dumbs down the discussion.


There is no danger in that!! Maybe danger to the pet food companies that someone won't buy their crap dog food. Boo hoo.


----------



## bridget246

Unosmom said:


> Ok... I doubt anyone on this forum actually feeds 4-D meats or unnamed meat and bone meals. I find this post to be inflamattory and offensive, if someone chose to feed kibble, its their choice. If you want to post this, post in in general topic forum. I'm sure you'd get offended if I went to a raw section and said " its time to think about switching back to kibble.." for whatever reason.


I actually think most raw feeders would welcome your post. We'd take a real close look at every one of your reasons. Of course you'd leave the thread fully convinced that raw is the way to go. But now I am getting off subject.

To get back on subject. Unosomom brings up some good points. I would like to believe that our kibble feeders here do feed good brand kibbles. My post about Purina wasn't a, "Hey, lets all go to raw because this dog food company is awful". My goal was to arm more users with facts against Purina and even some of the other not so good dog food companies. I'm sure if I did enough research I could probably find some problems with a few prepackage raw dog food companies. Does that mean that we should all switch to kibble? Not at all. Just because one company is doing something awful shouldn't mean that we banish every company within that market.


----------



## xellil

On the other hand, some very expensive dry foods have some very horrible ingredients. Also, people have come here saying they feed Alpo and Purina. Not everyone here feeds Acana. They should see this.

Shoot, i was feeding animal digest in Fortiflora and didn't even read the label. I should have come back here and read this. 

I don't think it matters where it is. Most people click the "today's posts" - I know I do and I rarely even notice what forum it is in, except if it's particular to dry food I don't usually open the thread.


----------



## bridget246

xellil said:


> On the other hand, some very expensive dry foods have some very horrible ingredients. Also, people have come here saying they feed Alpo and Purina. Not everyone here feeds Acana. They should see this.
> 
> Shoot, i was feeding animal digest in Fortiflora and didn't even read the label. I should have come back here and read this.
> 
> I don't think it matters where it is. Most people click the "today's posts" - I know I do and I rarely even notice what forum it is in, except if it's particular to dry food I don't usually open the thread.


That much is true. Which is why I promote cook diets if the person is fully against raw. I keep some good basic recipes on hand if anyone is ever interested.


----------



## ShanniBella

I'm not against raw....however I do prefer to lightly home cook all my dogs food. At least it's not kibble  And sorry for my ignorance but what is 4D meats? I know it's not good by the way it's mentioned.


----------



## xellil

ShanniBella said:


> I'm not against raw....however I do prefer to lightly home cook all my dogs food. At least it's not kibble  And sorry for my ignorance but what is 4D meats? I know it's not good by the way it's mentioned.


4D - dead, diseased, dying, disabled. Dog food often contains these animals, as well as euthanized animals and road kill. it is normally labelled on dog food ingredients without a specific protein, such as "fish meal" or "animal digest." If it names the protein, such as "catfish meal" it's probably not 4D because in 4D everything is mixed in together.


----------



## dooneygirl09

Dead, diseased, dying, destroyed I believe.


----------



## dooneygirl09

Darn you! Lol I was rushing to tell her lol!!


----------



## xellil

dooneygirl09 said:


> Darn you! Lol I was rushing to hell her lol!!


I gotta admit, I had to look up disabled. I can never remember that one.


----------



## dooneygirl09

Mw too. I got destroyed instead of disabled. Lol I remember reading a article the other day about this but still had to look it up. Then when I did it was like palm to the forehead kinda thing lol


----------



## ShanniBella

Well they should add one more "D" to that list.....DISGUSTING! Ewww! So sick that they are allowed to put that in our beloved dog and cats food! Glad I don't feed kibble!


----------



## dooneygirl09

I was thinking to myself the other day, you know how when cows eat other cows they get mad cow disease? What about dogs eating other dogs?!


----------



## Yorkie967

Oh no, ..it took me years to learn and finally get my yorkie off pedigree and royal canine recently and now this video said that ALL commercial dog food mfg big and small go through this process and that they don't have to disclose those 4 d's if you watch that 2nd video. So that means even the top notch grain free like Acana and Solid gold cannot be trusted either? sheez I hope this is not the case because I thought I had peace of mind now. Can someone get to the bottom of this and confirm that NOT ALL pet food mfg use dead animals please. :Cry:


----------



## magicre

i am not a kibble feeder anymore and i really do believe that not all dog food companies use 4D meat....many do and that's why research is important....which it seems you've done....so go in peace....


----------



## Yorkie967

Here's some promising news for those feeding TOTW. FWIW...here's a response I got from them today : 
_Thank you for your inquiry. 

That article is very disturbing... I can assure you, we do not use any of the processes outlined in that article. Our meats actually are FDA and USDA approved for human consumption. 

Food safety is our #1 priority and it shows in the amount of new business we get from word of mouth-friends and neighbors talking to one another, recommending our foods. Our ingredients go through over 151 quality assurance checks, from the time the ingredient arrives to the end process of shipping, to ensure the safety of our products. 

Sincerely,
Cheri 
Customer Service_


----------



## Yorkie967

Here's another good response from Solid Gold:

_Thank you for contacting Solid Gold. Our internet connection is too slow here to watch videos without them constantly stopping and buffering. We do not use 4D meats. I read the article about euthanized dogs and cats being in pet food. The FDA actually did DNA tests on pet foods and never found dog or cat DNA.

Best regards,

Solid Gold_


----------



## xellil

no, they found pentobarbitol. And I have read several articles saying they distrusted the samples the FDA tested for DNA.

I don't trust a company that says they don't use 4D meats. That's too simplistic. The better question would be - do you purchase from a rendering plant? If so, how do you make sure there are no 4D meats in the meat you purchase?


----------



## greyshadows

I wouldn't care what they say, both TOTW and Solid Gold are made by Diamond one of the worst manufacturers.

The Pet Food List. Pet Food information, manufacturers, products, ingredients, cat, dog food.


----------



## Yorkie967

Wow this is a tough crowd, to say they're one of the worst mfg is pretty harsh. I would imagine that for pedigree and royal canine not TOTW, Solid Gold, Merrick, Wellness. I would have to believe their 151 quality inspection from the time the ingredients arrive to packaging is not bad.

Here's another response from Natura:

_Dear , 

We do not use any 4D (dead, dying, disabled or diseased) animals in our foods. All meat products originate from the United States of America. All animals have received ante- and post- mortem inspection at USDA approved facility with no evidence of systemic disease of animal and human health significance. The meat meets all USDA/FDA standards for product safety.

Natura is a company dedicated to making the healthiest pet food in the world. We manufacture our dog and cat foods under the strictest of standards for safety, reliability and consistency while following our nutritional philosophy. This effort is led by a team of dedicated and highly trained professionals including board certified veterinary nutritionists. Natura will not add anything to the food unless it is nutritious and healthful for a cat or dog.

As a testament to Natura Pet Products’ quality and safety, it has received the following certifications and distinctions:



· American Institute of Baking (AIB) Superior Rating Certification

o High AIB ratings confirm a manufactures commitment to excellence.

o This certification, until recently, was primarily reserved for the human food industry.

· USDA Organic Production Certification

o A National Organic Program certifier has approved the facility and its procedures through rigorous inspection and auditing.

o Natura’s baking facility is certified by OneCert.

o Our Karma Dog Food and treats are certified Organic.

· USDA APHIS (Animal and Plant Health Inspection Service) Registered

o APHIS registry certifies that Natura purchases all of our meats from USDA registered suppliers who follow all USDA regulations for safe meat handling.

· ISO Quality Management System 9001: 2000 Compliant

o An internationally recognized and highly respected system of quality management.

· ISO Quality Management System 22000: 2005 Compliant

o An internationally recognized and highly respected system of food safety management.

o Natura is the only pet food manufacturer in the United States to be compliant with this rigorous international standard, guaranteeing the safety of our pet foods.

If you have any additional questions please feel free to contact me at your convenience.


Best Regards,

Ashley

Natura Product Advisor

Licensed Veterinary Technician

(800) 532-7261_


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## DaViking

greyshadows said:


> I wouldn't care what they say, both TOTW and Solid Gold are made by Diamond one of the worst manufacturers.
> 
> The Pet Food List. Pet Food information, manufacturers, products, ingredients, cat, dog food.


That list is no longer accurate. It should be updated or removed.


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## xellil

Yorkie967 said:


> Wow this is a tough crowd, to say they're one of the worst mfg is pretty harsh. I would imagine that for pedigree and royal canine not TOTW, Solid Gold, Merrick, Wellness. I would have to believe their 151 quality inspection from the time the ingredients arrive to packaging is not bad.


I have to admit, i am a tough crowd. I am most impressed with the ISO Quality standards compliance although I'm not sure who does the oversight to make sure their claim is accurate.

If I were feeding dry food, I would be more likely to buy this one than most of the other ones.


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## Yorkie967

Here's the response I got from the creme de la creme Orijen. Ready?...drumroll....
So far I must say I'm very relieved with the responses from our premium brands. 

_Hi,

Thank you for your email.

A quality high protein meat meal can be an important inclusion in a Biologically Appropriate Diet. Every animal ingredient that enters Champion Petfoods’ premises is either:

1: PASSED FIT FOR ‘HUMAN CONSUMPTION’ (this is the case for all of our fresh meats, where the ingredient itself is passed fit for human consumption and then delivered fresh) or,

2: PRODUCED FROM ANIMALS PASSED FIT FOR HUMAN CONSUMPTION (this is the case with all of our meal ingredients, such as chicken, turkey, fish or lamb).



There can be no exceptions to points one and two.


The ‘passed fit for human consumption’ designation is actually part of the European Union’s pet food legislation (Regulation 1774) and the CFIA certifies all of our ingredients meet this standard. The standard we are held to is that ALL animals used to produce pet food ingredients must pass both pre & post mortem inspection by a federal meat inspector or officer within a federally approved processing facility. Again, there are no exceptions to this rule.

In order to quality as an EU 1774 ‘passed fit’ ingredient, the ingredient processor (such as our chicken renderer, for example) can handle ONLY ‘passed fit’ ingredients. They cannot have ANY animal ingredient on their premises that is not certified to human-grade standard. There are no exceptions to this rule, and all animal ingredient suppliers are registered with the CFIA, who audits us 4 times each year.

So, while the CFIA will allow rendered animal parts of varying quality to be used in pet foods (there are no real regulations in Canada), because Champion’s products and factory is EU certified, we are held to a much higher standard than domestic Canadian or US pet food makers (which explains why many of the ‘top’ foods in North America can’t be sold within the European Union).


In closing, I confirm that every animal ingredient used to make either ACANA or ORIJEN is either (a) passed fit for human consumption & delivered fresh, or (b) produced exclusively from animals passed as fit for human consumption (meals).

Please feel free to write back if you have any other questions.


Warm Regards,
Bonnie

Customer Care

Champion Petfoods LP_


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## sozzle

I finally plucked up the courage to watch the video.
Absolutely sickening if it's true.
Actually what I also found disturbing was what they did with euthanized animals, ie just dumping them.
I went with a friend a couple of years ago to have her dog put down. 
I don't know what they did with the body afterwards as she didn't want to take it home.
I'm pretty sure this rendering of dead cats and dogs doesn't happen in New Zealand.
But I wouldn't be surprised if they are just dumped or burnt somewhere.
We have very strict petfood regulations.
It also being a small country with many activists, it would be hard to hide something as disturbing as this.
I'm glad I feed raw.


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## dooneygirl09

Well when it comes down to it, you can't trust ANYONE! Id still be afraid to trust them, even with all the 'proof'. They are there to SELL the product.


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## xellil

dooneygirl09 said:


> Well when it comes down to it, you can't trust ANYONE! Id still be afraid to trust them, even with all the 'proof'. They are there to SELL the product.


in the end, that's what it boils down to. Do you trust what they say? Honestly, I have seen so much proof that they will lie, cheat, and kill dogs to sell dog food and make a profit that I just don't trust what they say.


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## Yorkie967

Ok to be utterly frank, I'm not 100% on a RAW diet. It's just meat n bones, that's it. Very one dimensional. And although they came from gray wolves, modern pets of today have evolved much like humans. They are so domesticated for human companions esp the toy ones under 15 lbs. Now if I have one of them hybrid wolves, huskies, or a "big dog" like Mastif I would feel great throwing them a whole raw chicken or beef. 

But I have a yorkie and maltese with ittly bitty teeth and jaw that resembles nothing like a wolf so I feel good about feeding them a quality grain free kibble because it has many nutrients and vitamins that a regular home cooked food can't match. And of course I add broth/gravy and scraps to the kibble to resemble a complete meal. So RAW is great but I don't think it's for every pet owner so you can't insist on it for everyone because you have a german sheppard or rott


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## dustinshaw98

nupe said:


> *Warning....*not only will you be shocked but appaled from video...But you need to see this!!!
> 
> 
> 
> Does Your Dog Food Include Euthanized Dog?



Jesus! This makes me really sick. Good thing I switched a long time ago to raw meat for my dogs.


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## DaViking

dustinshaw98 said:


> Jesus! This makes me really sick. Good thing I switched a long time ago to raw meat for my dogs.


Actually as a "documentary" this piece is utterly crap (except the recall part) imho, gross and sad but still crap. It fails to give any meaningful connection to what I feed my dogs. And as a consumer of a "documentary" thats what I want to know and see. But I'll give them benefit of the doubt and go along with that these things can happen on a very limited scale in douchebag world. A rendering plant is not a rendering plant is not a rendering plant. All manufacturers renders (process) ingredients from one state to another.


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## xellil

Yorkie967 said:


> Ok to be utterly frank, I'm not 100% on a RAW diet. It's just meat n bones, that's it. Very one dimensional. And although they came from gray wolves, modern pets of today have evolved much like humans. They are so domesticated for human companions esp the toy ones under 15 lbs. Now if I have one of them hybrid wolves, huskies, or a "big dog" like Mastif I would feel great throwing them a whole raw chicken or beef.
> 
> But I have a yorkie and maltese with ittly bitty teeth and jaw that resembles nothing like a wolf so I feel good about feeding them a quality grain free kibble because it has many nutrients and vitamins that a regular home cooked food can't match. And of course I add broth/gravy and scraps to the kibble to resemble a complete meal. So RAW is great but I don't think it's for every pet owner so you can't insist on it for everyone because you have a german sheppard or rott


Well, I have a 14 year old 10 pound dachshund with four teeth who eats raw and you should see her tear into a turkey neck 

I don't insist on it. But don't NOT feed raw because you think your small dog has evolved to the point where they need different food than a Rottweiler. Their digestive systems work exactly the same way.

Everyone makes a choice on what they feed. But that choice should be made out of knowledge. your tiny dogs have not evolved with a digestive system resembling a human's. Meat, bones, and organs are the only things they are built to digest. They can eat other stuff, but they don't need it.


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## xellil

DaViking said:


> Actually as a "documentary" this piece is utterly crap (except the recall part) imho, gross and sad but still crap. It fails to give any meaningful connection to what I feed my dogs. And as a consumer of a "documentary" thats what I want to know and see. But I'll give them benefit of the doubt and go along with that these things can happen on a very limited scale in douchebag world. A rendering plant is not a rendering plant is not a rendering plant. All manufacturers renders (process) ingredients from one state to another.


The laws in this country allow those kinds of meats into our dog food. Pet food companies have a huge financial incentive to do what is the cheapest thing. I'm sure 4D meats are not in 100% of our dog foods, but anyone who thinks they don't have to worry about it are just sticking their head in the sand. IMO.


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## kathylcsw

Yorkie967 said:


> Ok to be utterly frank, I'm not 100% on a RAW diet. It's just meat n bones, that's it. Very one dimensional. And although they came from gray wolves, modern pets of today have evolved much like humans. They are so domesticated for human companions esp the toy ones under 15 lbs. Now if I have one of them hybrid wolves, huskies, or a "big dog" like Mastif I would feel great throwing them a whole raw chicken or beef.
> 
> But I have a yorkie and maltese with ittly bitty teeth and jaw that resembles nothing like a wolf so I feel good about feeding them a quality grain free kibble because it has many nutrients and vitamins that a regular home cooked food can't match. And of course I add broth/gravy and scraps to the kibble to resemble a complete meal. So RAW is great but I don't think it's for every pet owner so you can't insist on it for everyone because you have a german sheppard or rott


I have 2 small dogs - an almost 10 month old JRT who weighs in at 9lbs and a 5 month old Toy Fox Terrier who is around 4 lbs or so. Both are fed a raw diet. I started the JRT on partial raw when she was 4 months old and transitioned to all raw at 6 1/2 months old. The TFT started on raw the day I brought him home at 8 weeks old. He was around 2 lbs at that time. I gave him a chicken drummie the first night and he tore into it tiny teeth and all. For the first few days he only gnawed at the edges of the bone but within a week he got eat through the bone. Now he chows down as easily as a Dobe or Rotti. 

It is really not about the size of the dog at all as my little ones show. It is about the comfort level of the owner. I was leery about it at first but for me it was due to the cost and time to get meals ready. Thanks to a brother who butchers a couple of deer each fall and Craigs List it is currently costing next to nothing to feed raw. It is time consuming though and messy and kind of gross being up to my elbows in raw meat.

It sounds like you are doing fine by your dogs and feel good about how you feed. And that is how it should be. I just wanted to let you know that size shouldn't be an issue though. My little ones love their meals and are doing great.


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## DaViking

xellil said:


> The laws in this country allow those kinds of meats into our dog food. Pet food companies have a huge financial incentive to do what is the cheapest thing. I'm sure 4D meats are not in 100% of our dog foods, but anyone who thinks they don't have to worry about it are just sticking their head in the sand. IMO.


I don't think pet food with rendered dead cats and dogs is a big problem in the pet food industry. They buyers of this kinds of fat and protein are very limited. You'll probably find this kind of crap in dirt cheap regional hillbilly brands sold out in the boonies. I am sure 4D meats, excluding dead cats and dogs, find it's way into the low quality segment of the market.


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## magicre

DaViking said:


> I don't think pet food with rendered dead cats and dogs is a big problem in the pet food industry. They buyers of this kinds of fat and protein are very limited. You'll probably find this kind of crap in dirt cheap regional hillbilly brands sold out in the boonies. I am sure 4D meats, excluding dead cats and dogs, find it's way into the low quality segment of the market.


i would have agreed with you until the arsenic thing that occurred with that organic baby food company who oops, forgot to test their soil for the arsenic used in the cotton fields that are now growing brown rice.....

i don't know anymore. i just don't.


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## xellil

DaViking said:


> I don't think pet food with rendered dead cats and dogs is a big problem in the pet food industry. They buyers of this kinds of fat and protein are very limited. You'll probably find this kind of crap in dirt cheap regional hillbilly brands sold out in the boonies. I am sure 4D meats, excluding dead cats and dogs, find it's way into the low quality segment of the market.


the problem is, we just don't know. I was giving Snorkels Fortiflora (a Purina product) at the vet's recommendation while she was on antibiotics. I never looked at the ingredient label - I guess i thought probiotics meant probiotics. That was a very stupid thing to assume.

it turns out the first ingredient is animal digest, which is one of the top offenders for 4D meats. Now i don't know what's in that animal digest. That's the problem. It could have 4D meats. Maybe it doesn't. I just don't know. 

Some of the most expensive foods have some of the worst ingredients. 

The problem is the way the laws are set up they don't have to tell us anything. If the animal digest has no 4D meats, why don't they just say so? If fish meal has no ethoxyquin, say so. Etc. etc. That's my biggest issue with this whole thing. They can say anything in their emails, or on their ingredients labels, but there is no regulation insisting they tell us exactly what is in our dog food. And that throws wide the doors for misinformation and outright lying. Which is also legal. 

I agree with you - it's probably mostly stuff like Ole Roy that has the really bad meats. I don't agree that it's just food sold by small podunk companies. I believe it's the big ones.

And people here on this forum normally aren't going to be feeding that. But not always - i have seen people here that feed Alpo and Beneful. And in addition to deliberate contamination with things like melamine (which they now believe is the culprit in the chicken jerky) it's a huge risk to give a dog many of the dry dog foods out there.

I don't believe Acana has 4D meats. But legally, they are perfectly within their rights to add it. So there is a certain level of trust that has to be maintained. I've pretty much lost that lately.


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## LilasMom

Yorkie967 said:


> Ok to be utterly frank, I'm not 100% on a RAW diet. It's just meat n bones, that's it. Very one dimensional. And although they came from gray wolves, modern pets of today have evolved much like humans. They are so domesticated for human companions esp the toy ones under 15 lbs. Now if I have one of them hybrid wolves, huskies, or a "big dog" like Mastif I would feel great throwing them a whole raw chicken or beef.
> 
> But I have a yorkie and maltese with ittly bitty teeth and jaw that resembles nothing like a wolf so I feel good about feeding them a quality grain free kibble because it has many nutrients and vitamins that a regular home cooked food can't match. And of course I add broth/gravy and scraps to the kibble to resemble a complete meal. So RAW is great but I don't think it's for every pet owner so you can't insist on it for everyone because you have a german sheppard or rott


You should see the way my 3 pound yorkie handles a turkey thigh 

Great Dane or Yorkie, the digestive system is just the same. You just have to adjust to suit their smaller teeth, which means small chicken bones, quail bones, and rabbit bones instead of turkey, beef or pork bones. Sort of the way humans have the same digestive system even though we come in all different shapes and sizes. And actually, it is the raw that has nutrients that kibble could never match. Raw is also different than home cooked. Kibble looks like it has all sorts of minerals and nutrients because they have to add them back in. Raw meat and bones have everything a dog could ever need in them already, it just seems like so little since it is just meat and bones. But in those meat and bones are so many nutrients in its purest most digestible form.

Humans have actually not evolved that much in terms of digestion. If so, there wouldn't be so many fat people or diabetic people. Humans are not meant to eat processed food, and neither are animals.

Edit: said "humans are" instead of "humans are not"


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## DaViking

xellil said:


> the problem is, we just don't know. I was giving Snorkels Fortiflora (a Purina product) at the vet's recommendation while she was on antibiotics. I never looked at the ingredient label - I guess i thought probiotics meant probiotics. That was a very stupid thing to assume.
> 
> it turns out the first ingredient is animal digest, which is one of the top offenders for 4D meats. Now i don't know what's in that animal digest. That's the problem. It could have 4D meats. Maybe it doesn't. I just don't know.
> 
> Some of the most expensive foods have some of the worst ingredients.
> 
> The problem is the way the laws are set up they don't have to tell us anything. If the animal digest has no 4D meats, why don't they just say so? If fish meal has no ethoxyquin, say so. Etc. etc. That's my biggest issue with this whole thing. They can say anything in their emails, or on their ingredients labels, but there is no regulation insisting they tell us exactly what is in our dog food. And that throws wide the doors for misinformation and outright lying. Which is also legal.
> 
> I agree with you - it's probably mostly stuff like Ole Roy that has the really bad meats. I don't agree that it's just food sold by small podunk companies. I believe it's the big ones.
> 
> And people here on this forum normally aren't going to be feeding that. But not always - i have seen people here that feed Alpo and Beneful. And in addition to deliberate contamination with things like melamine (which they now believe is the culprit in the chicken jerky) it's a huge risk to give a dog many of the dry dog foods out there.
> 
> I don't believe Acana has 4D meats. But legally, they are perfectly within their rights to add it. So there is a certain level of trust that has to be maintained. I've pretty much lost that lately.


It's your right to be a skeptic but you could use all your arguments for every area in life where there is a buck or two to be made, not limited to pet foods. At some point everyone has to find their level of trust and move on. I trust certain pet food manufactures and happily feed that to all my dogs. Others trust meat sellers on Craigslist and happily feed that to their pets.

By the way, it is not ok to lie, in any country.


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## magicre

LilasMom said:


> You should see the way my 3 pound yorkie handles a turkey thigh
> 
> Great Dane or Yorkie, the digestive system is just the same. You just have to adjust to suit their smaller teeth, which means small chicken bones, quail bones, and rabbit bones instead of turkey, beef or pork bones. Sort of the way humans have the same digestive system even though we come in all different shapes and sizes. And actually, it is the raw that has nutrients that kibble could never match. Raw is also different than home cooked. Kibble looks like it has all sorts of minerals and nutrients because they have to add them back in. Raw meat and bones have everything a dog could ever need in them already, it just seems like so little since it is just meat and bones. But in those meat and bones are so many nutrients in its purest most digestible form.
> 
> Humans have actually not evolved that much in terms of digestion. If so, there wouldn't be so many fat people or diabetic people. Humans are meant to eat processed food, and neither are animals.


neither have dogs. they have adapted or maladapted as human bodies are trying to and failing, as we see a horrendous rise in diabetes and heart disease and certain cancers...

it's the same with dogs....they are still the same as they were thousands or years ago.....but we've forced them into adaptation...even those of us who feed a prey model...it's not the way they would eat in the wild....but it'll have to do.


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## magicre

DaViking said:


> It's your right to be a skeptic but you could use all your arguments for every area in life where there is a buck or two to be made, not limited to pet foods. At some point everyone has to find their level of trust and move on. I trust certain pet food manufactures and happily feed that to all my dogs. Others trust meat sellers on Craigslist and happily feed that to their pets.


true words.....

and i am a skeptic as many will tell you. i won't trust craigslist, as others do....you should read the questions asked by my co op and the phone calls made to the farm or the supplier....we put them through the ringer...i do the same with my butcher....

this is food that goes into my body....into my dogs' bodies.....this is the elixir of life. 

i can't be casual about that.


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## greyshadows

When it comes to both human and dog food, I always look on the label for "manufactured by" as opposed to "manufactured for". The second usually means someone else makes it not who you think.


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## dooneygirl09

Something interesting I saw on the news today: A company in Evansville, IN called North American Green Corporation (Im pretty sure was the name) pleaded guilty to 150 counts of using pestisides. They claimed to be 100% natural. See, you literally cant trust anyone. ESPECIALLY someone thats trying to sell you something.


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## Sheltielover25

All this discussion here is exactly why my partner and I are looking into buying some land and starting a small homestead for us, our dogs, and possibly future child. I plan to raise all our own meat ethically and humane and if I can get the balls butcher it myself even. We're very much into aquaponics for growing our own vegetables and we plan to grow herbs for medicine. Bees will also be joining us. I find it too hard to trust anything these days and would prefer to be as self-sufficient as possible... even if that means living in the country and becoming a butcher!!


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## PDXdogmom

Sheltielover25 said:


> All this discussion here is exactly why my partner and I are looking into buying some land and starting a small homestead for us, our dogs, and possibly future child. I plan to raise all our own meat ethically and humane and if I can get the balls butcher it myself even. We're very much into aquaponics for growing our own vegetables and we plan to grow herbs for medicine. Bees will also be joining us. I find it too hard to trust anything these days and would prefer to be as self-sufficient as possible... even if that means living in the country and becoming a butcher!!


Have you been involved in permaculture training?


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