# help! raw fed pup - bald spots?



## flippedstars (May 22, 2010)

I have a little LC female chihuahua that is 3.75 lbs. I feed her Stella & Chewy's pre-mades in the AM and prey model in the evening. I supplement with glucosamine/chondroitin, Nupro, Fish Oil 1000 mg, and Royal Jelly. She is a show dog, and finished her AKC championship in about 2 months. I say that not to brag, but to explain why she had a LOT of baths over 2 months, as well as blow drys. I'd say about 25ish baths in that 2ish month period. She finished her CH from 9-11 months, during the period of heavy coat growth for long coated chihuahuas. 

About a month ago (maybe 2, I don't know exactly), I noticed she had a bald spot behind her neck that was very dry and scaley. It was tested negative for ringworm and the vet gave us panalog ointment to put on it for 10 days. It no longer looks dry/scaley but no fur has grown back. It's about the size of a dime. You can't really tell because she is long coated, except that I know where to look for it. She does not wear a collar and only has a show lead on for shows.

She does not seem itchy and does not go for the spot.

At her last show this fall (we now have a 2 month break), I noticed a new spot with very scare hair on her shoulderblade. This one is a bit bigger than a quarter and does not look irritated, red or dry. It almost looks like a bruised area...

Do you think she has some kind of deficiency (or allergy to?) from her diet? Do you think its just from all the baths she got? Too many blow drys? I really want to rule out her diet as the cause - my other 6 chihuahuas are also on the same diet and are the picture of health. Everyone has clear bright eyes, healthy coats and teeth, etc. 

Lately her appetite has been pretty bad...e.g. she's been really picky and only wanting prey model stuff (save me from the cracks about why feed a pre-made...lol it saves my sanity w/ 7 chis). 

Does anyone have any idea what could be going on? Is it her diet? Am I doing something wrong? 

Below are pictures of the spots, as best I can capture them. She just turned 1 year old today.









this is the one on the back of her neck that was scaley/dry at first before a week of the panalog ointment, its since been about 2 months and it hasn't done much...









close up










this is the spot on her shoulder 









close up

Vet has been pretty useless. I want to run a blood panel but the vet thinks its a waste of $$. 

I've been keeping her in little t-shirts to keep her away from the spots, even though I don't think she's been scratching at them. I can't really tell if they are slightly warm to the touch or not.


----------



## swolek (Mar 31, 2011)

It might be worth a shot to try a pre-made with less ingredients (Vital Essentials, Primal Grinds, Bravo! Basic, etc.). My own dogs did fine on Stella and Chewy's before switching to PMR but my foster dog got it once and it was a mistake. He has food allergies and something in the Stella and Chewy's set them off. He scratched all day and his eyes teared up. When he was first rescued and had been dealing with food allergies for a while, his coat was thin, patchy, and had several of the bald spots like your photos. It grew back on PMR and he stopped scratching. I know if I had continued to feed him Stella and Chewy's (I fed it because I ran out of chicken and he was too new to raw to get beef heart and pork, ha), he would have kept scratching and I have no doubts that his coat would have deteriorated again. Probably not to the same extent since he tolerates S&C better than kibble but something definitely didn't sit well with him .


----------



## flippedstars (May 22, 2010)

swolek said:


> It might be worth a shot to try a pre-made with less ingredients (Vital Essentials, Primal Grinds, Bravo! Basic, etc.). My own dogs did fine on Stella and Chewy's before switching to PMR but my foster dog got it once and it was a mistake. He has food allergies and something in the Stella and Chewy's set them off. He scratched all day and his eyes teared up. When he was first rescued and had been dealing with food allergies for a while, his coat was thin, patchy, and had several of the bald spots like your photos. It grew back on PMR and he stopped scratching. I know if I had continued to feed him Stella and Chewy's (I fed it because I ran out of chicken and he was too new to raw to get beef heart and pork, ha), he would have kept scratching and I have no doubts that his coat would have deteriorated again. Probably not to the same extent since he tolerates S&C better than kibble but something definitely didn't sit well with him .


I definitely can try changing her off of the S & C. I guess I never thought much about the 'extra' ingredients because they are only 5% of it. She doesn't exhibit any allergy symptoms, though. Not really itchy, no runny eyes or red eyes, no licking, etc. I think I can get the Bravo! grinds at our pet store so maybe I will try those...I would stick her straight on PMR for a few months but I worry I'm not doing it right (thus why it's nice to know at least breakfast is 'balanced' lol), and the jealousy from the other chis wouldn't be worth it. Because of my schedule breakfast has to be 'quick'. So grinds of some sort are what I have to do.


----------



## cprcheetah (Jul 14, 2010)

I was feeding Zoey Nature's Variety for a while the Bison One & Chicken One (I got some for free from a friend) and in just 3 weeks she was back to licking/chewing on her front legs, so in some dogs the '5%' can be a HUGE difference. The spots on your girl look like some sort of 'moist' dermatitis. What does she gets for treats? Training? Show? What are the ingredients in those? Shellie my golden developed hot spots on her back end just by 'sneaking' cat food at my dad's while she was staying with him when I had surgery. All it takes sometimes is 1 ingredient to throw their system out of 'whack'. I was way worried about balance for a long while, but I've got it figured out, they get 2 boney meals per week with organs on those days/meals. That balances them out pretty good, poop and health wise. If you are worried make your own 'grinds' that are balanced.

It could also be the frequent bathing. My sister show standard poodles get sparse coats sometimes with all the brushing/combing/bathing. She gives them Show Stopper as well as MirraCoat supplements which helps. She feeds kibble, but the Mirracoat seems to help keep the coat in 'bloom' so to speak. I know it helped her puppy grow TONS of coat. Are you brushing a 'dry' coat? My sister learned with her first show dog that you have to spritz the coat with something before brushing otherwise it can cause breakage.


----------



## flippedstars (May 22, 2010)

cprcheetah said:


> I was feeding Zoey Nature's Variety for a while the Bison One & Chicken One (I got some for free from a friend) and in just 3 weeks she was back to licking/chewing on her front legs, so in some dogs the '5%' can be a HUGE difference. The spots on your girl look like some sort of 'moist' dermatitis. What does she gets for treats? Training? Show? What are the ingredients in those? Shellie my golden developed hot spots on her back end just by 'sneaking' cat food at my dad's while she was staying with him when I had surgery. All it takes sometimes is 1 ingredient to throw their system out of 'whack'. I was way worried about balance for a long while, but I've got it figured out, they get 2 boney meals per week with organs on those days/meals. That balances them out pretty good, poop and health wise. If you are worried make your own 'grinds' that are balanced.
> 
> It could also be the frequent bathing. My sister show standard poodles get sparse coats sometimes with all the brushing/combing/bathing. She gives them Show Stopper as well as MirraCoat supplements which helps. She feeds kibble, but the Mirracoat seems to help keep the coat in 'bloom' so to speak. I know it helped her puppy grow TONS of coat. Are you brushing a 'dry' coat? My sister learned with her first show dog that you have to spritz the coat with something before brushing otherwise it can cause breakage.


All good things to think about too -- her 'treats' are just dried chicken chips with no other ingredients...or her bait is chicken boiled in karo syrup and garlic. 

I THINK the change may have coincided with her switch from The Missing Link to Nupro. I just can't remember exactly when that was...

She isn't particularly sensitive to anything. She was raised by her breeder just fine on Royal Canin Chihuahua. So I really do tend to think it isn't diet related but I do worry that it might be a deficiency...she is not licking/biting/chewing. She is acting happy, normal, playful and energetic. That's what is confusing me, there really aren't any symptoms associated with the spots. I didn't notice the 1st one because she was scratching at it, it was because I was petting her a funny way. It could have been there for a LONG time.

It does kind of look like a moist dermatitis...this is driving me crazy.

I will switch her onto something without that added 5% and take her off the Nupro...but somehow I'm not sure either of those things are 'it'?


----------



## KittyKat (Feb 11, 2011)

It's possible it may never grow back in... but some of the key things related to hair growth are Zinc, EFA's and Silica.

Zinc is found in meat and eggs mainly, EFAs in Fish and things like Flax Oil and Silica you generally have to supplement with.

You give fish oil which is good, i'm not sure what kind though as some are higher in EFA's then others. 

You could try adding in eggs to their diet as well as sardines and maybe even supplement with silica (health food stores carry this) if you like. 

If you notice the area feels a bit odd you can spray it with colloidal silver (i use it on my dog whenever she gets a rash or anything, clears right up) and see if that works.


G'luck.


----------



## flippedstars (May 22, 2010)

KittyKat said:


> It's possible it may never grow back in... but some of the key things related to hair growth are Zinc, EFA's and Silica.
> 
> Zinc is found in meat and eggs mainly, EFAs in Fish and things like Flax Oil and Silica you generally have to supplement with.
> 
> ...


I wondered if it might be zinc although it seems 'unlikely', it def could be that...what is collidal silver?will a health food store have that as well?

I also can up the egg she gets. If it doesn't grow back it doesn't grow back, although I think the patch on her shoulder will regrow, I am not so sure about the small one behind her neck. Its been bald for awhile now.


----------



## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

it's possible she isn't getting enough fat...


----------



## KittyKat (Feb 11, 2011)

flippedstars said:


> I wondered if it might be zinc although it seems 'unlikely', it def could be that...what is collidal silver?will a health food store have that as well?
> 
> I also can up the egg she gets. If it doesn't grow back it doesn't grow back, although I think the patch on her shoulder will regrow, I am not so sure about the small one behind her neck. Its been bald for awhile now.


Colloidal Silver is sold in health food stores. I put it in a small spray bottle (one that used to contain eyeglass cleaner) and just spray her irritated spots.


----------



## flippedstars (May 22, 2010)

Hmmm, I do think fat is a possibility - but, what would you say is the best way to get her fat? Chicken or beef trimmings? I don't want to give too much and wind up with pancreatitis.

It's just weird because overall she is super healthy. The vet really doesn't think its anything...and everyone else is doing fine. Its not seeming like an allergy because no itching/runny or watery eyes/no off stools...its just these two ominous baldish spots. I don't get it.


----------



## Caty M (Aug 13, 2010)

To the whole not balancing thing- do you worry about your meals exactly? You don't.. you don't have to with the dogs, either! The body has an amazing ability to adapt to most forms of nutrition, and if you are feeding mostly meat, some bone and some organ, keeping an eye on poop there really is no way you can go wrong. There is no 100% balance with nutrition, it's not an exact science. Dogs can live long lives on crappy corn kibble as well as raw foods.. they are worlds apart. A small variation in the raw diet will not make a difference.


----------



## flippedstars (May 22, 2010)

Caty M said:


> To the whole not balancing thing- do you worry about your meals exactly? You don't.. you don't have to with the dogs, either! The body has an amazing ability to adapt to most forms of nutrition, and if you are feeding mostly meat, some bone and some organ, keeping an eye on poop there really is no way you can go wrong. There is no 100% balance with nutrition, it's not an exact science. Dogs can live long lives on crappy corn kibble as well as raw foods.. they are worlds apart. A small variation in the raw diet will not make a difference.


I worry about the dog's meals and balance because I guess I feel kind of scrutinized - my vet knows (and disagrees with) the fact that I feed raw...we have limited vet options in our town, and she is the best I have found, but we still don't agree on diet. So while it isn't the first place she points her finger, of course, is diet. I am pretty careful to balance out the evening meals to 80/10/10. The one problem I have is sometimes I can't get kidney. I worry because I am feeding not just my pets but a breeding program off of the diet. While I have shown for awhile I'm new to breeding, and plan to wean pups to raw, but omg what if I am doing it wrong? At the end of the day I do hear what you are saying and try to remind myself of it. I HOPE this little fur issue isn't related to her diet, but who knows? I feel like its unlikely, considering they are getting the 'balanced' premade in the morning, as extra insurance, but...yeah. Maybe she needs extra fats, extra zinc, extra something...? Even if it is NOT a result of her diet, I would think diet could expedite recovery/healing. I know I probably am just over-thinking this and a few months without a bath will fix thing?


----------



## naturalfeddogs (Jan 6, 2011)

Why not get off the S&C, and go raw 100%? It sounds like there are too many ingrediants there.


----------



## KittyKat (Feb 11, 2011)

flippedstars said:


> I worry about the dog's meals and balance because I guess I feel kind of scrutinized - my vet knows (and disagrees with) the fact that I feed raw...we have limited vet options in our town, and she is the best I have found, but we still don't agree on diet. So while it isn't the first place she points her finger, of course, is diet. I am pretty careful to balance out the evening meals to 80/10/10. The one problem I have is sometimes I can't get kidney. I worry because I am feeding not just my pets but a breeding program off of the diet. While I have shown for awhile I'm new to breeding, and plan to wean pups to raw, but omg what if I am doing it wrong? At the end of the day I do hear what you are saying and try to remind myself of it. I HOPE this little fur issue isn't related to her diet, but who knows? I feel like its unlikely, considering they are getting the 'balanced' premade in the morning, as extra insurance, but...yeah. Maybe she needs extra fats, extra zinc, extra something...? Even if it is NOT a result of her diet, I would think diet could expedite recovery/healing. I know I probably am just over-thinking this and a few months without a bath will fix thing?


I have trouble finding kidney, but i can locate calf liver pretty easily. 

Her diet is likely fine, just sometimes people, and dogs need more then what others need because they are not actually digesting enough of it. For instance females typically need more iron and can have issues digesting many types of iron! 

I do agree with not bathing so often, it can dry out their skin to some degree. Having baths every once and awhile though is a good thing.


----------



## flippedstars (May 22, 2010)

naturalfeddogs said:


> Why not get off the S&C, and go raw 100%? It sounds like there are too many ingrediants there.


95% of the ingredients are 80/10/10 meat, bone, organ (half kidney half liver)...she isn't a sensitive pup and I don't think its allergy related? I choose not to do 100% raw because I am feeding a bunch of dogs and it is not practical in the morning for me to supervise them on anything other than grinds, and I like the added assurance of balance in the AM leaving me less to worry about at night!


----------



## naturalfeddogs (Jan 6, 2011)

I understand, so if its working for you then stay with it. Somebody will have advice for you that may work. Maybe more fish oils? Other than alittle dry looking in some of the pictures it dosn't look real irritated.


----------



## flippedstars (May 22, 2010)

It really isn't irritated - the one on her shoulder doesn't look dry at all and hasn't, the one on her neck did but a week (maybe it was 10 days) on panalog and it was cleared up...I sort of don't think the fur is growing back on that one, that maybe it was a bite of some kind but I worry the shoulder might be related to her diet...

I work from home but I DO have to start working in the AM so I need to get the dogs pottied, walked and fed in a reasonable amount of time and since I worry, weigh, obsess etc all their PMR meals its just easier to say 'here have this!' and throw the S & C in a bowl. It's also easy to mix in a bit of glucosamine and any other supplements needed. 

I mean could it be because she's not getting enough organs? Her stools have been perfect all her life and she switched to raw w/ no problems... I was thinking maybe putting a bit of coconut oil into her diet just to get some variation in and possibly putting it ON the spots since it has natural antibiotic properties? I also think zinc could be a culprit too...I just don't know and its hard to change something, wait 5-8 weeks, and then try something new, if shes uncomfortable I want it fixed now!


----------



## flippedstars (May 22, 2010)

She seems really averted to fish oils ? HATES them. I have to squirt it straight in her mouth if she has to have it so what if that's what is causing the problems?ainkiller:


----------



## naturalfeddogs (Jan 6, 2011)

I re-read you original post, and I'm thinking maybe it's more the grooming. Lots of washing, drying and grooming products could be it. I don't know how you dry it, but blow dryers will suck out all moisture from the coat. I know for showing you have to style the coat, but maybe try a cooler form of drying? Does the dryer you use have a cooler setting? I'm just kind of thinking it could come from too much grooming overall.


----------



## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

flippedstars said:


> Hmmm, I do think fat is a possibility - but, what would you say is the best way to get her fat? Chicken or beef trimmings? I don't want to give too much and wind up with pancreatitis.
> 
> It's just weird because overall she is super healthy. The vet really doesn't think its anything...and everyone else is doing fine. Its not seeming like an allergy because no itching/runny or watery eyes/no off stools...its just these two ominous baldish spots. I don't get it.


since you're feeding your dog prey model in the evening, then if you buy a fattier cut of meat, red meat....you can cut some of the fat off and feed what i call 'fat cubes'. i have a pug who started losing his fur too.....adding in the fat helped....you don't need much, as it is something that will be taken care of over time....

you can add coconut oil to your dog's diet or you can add in some olive oil, but if anything, i'd probably use coconut oil on her fur...as i do with my corgi mix who gets dry skin in the winter and flakes....i just rub her down in it. she smells wonderful after.

certainly 25 baths in two months can be the culprit, especially if she's never had this before.


----------



## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

flippedstars said:


> I worry about the dog's meals and balance because I guess I feel kind of scrutinized - my vet knows (and disagrees with) the fact that I feed raw...we have limited vet options in our town, and she is the best I have found, but we still don't agree on diet. So while it isn't the first place she points her finger, of course, is diet. I am pretty careful to balance out the evening meals to 80/10/10. The one problem I have is sometimes I can't get kidney. I worry because I am feeding not just my pets but a breeding program off of the diet. While I have shown for awhile I'm new to breeding, and plan to wean pups to raw, but omg what if I am doing it wrong? At the end of the day I do hear what you are saying and try to remind myself of it. I HOPE this little fur issue isn't related to her diet, but who knows? I feel like its unlikely, considering they are getting the 'balanced' premade in the morning, as extra insurance, but...yeah. Maybe she needs extra fats, extra zinc, extra something...? Even if it is NOT a result of her diet, I would think diet could expedite recovery/healing. I know I probably am just over-thinking this and a few months without a bath will fix thing?


think about it.....everything is balance over time.....i don't eat fruit everyday, does that mean i have to take a supplement? no. it means i need to eat fruit every week or every four days.

i remember trying to get my dogs' meals on the 80-10-10 thing....i have one dog who eats 6 oz a day. it got taken up by bone and organ.

so i stopped.....now, they eat a variety...which is how they get their balance....i can feed duck necks one day and lamb the next and goat and beef...and if you look up all these wonderful proteins, you'll see how they match up.

with your little cutie, get yourself some beef liver or calves liver and go find a mexican or chinese store and get some other organ, like thymus or pancreas or spleen or kidney and give her a piece every week, of each kind...liver and kidney or another organ. liver is your constant though...and she'd be fine...

it was liberating to stop obsessing first thing in the morning. i too worked from home.


----------



## flippedstars (May 22, 2010)

naturalfeddogs said:


> I re-read you original post, and I'm thinking maybe it's more the grooming. Lots of washing, drying and grooming products could be it. I don't know how you dry it, but blow dryers will suck out all moisture from the coat. I know for showing you have to style the coat, but maybe try a cooler form of drying? Does the dryer you use have a cooler setting? I'm just kind of thinking it could come from too much grooming overall.


I HOPE it's just the grooming? She only just turned one on Friday, so, it was her first show season. She was winning and kicking butt so I kept putting her in shows - way more than I'd normally do for a pup. She finished in just 2 months but still that was a lot of baths. I used the coolest setting on the dryer...but not sure that means much.

We don't have a mexican or chinese store around b'c our town is little, about 14,000 people and half those are college kids...last time I ran out of kidney it cost me an arm and a leg to get some from hare-today  I need to call around again and see if someone can get it locally for me. When I first moved here, I could get it at Wal*mart, but they stopped having it...so we just ran out of the stuff from hare-today so now I am on the hunt again...grrr.

But yeah, ideally, it would be too much grooming causing this, but also i think Diet can help sort it back out? She has no shows and no need to be blow dried for 2-3 months now, and I may be letting her air dry then just 'fluffing' for spring shows, poor thing. I've just never seen this issue in my other dogs but I guess all dogs are different.


----------

