# Another Menadione Thread



## brindle (Mar 14, 2013)

Ok so we have all heard about menadione and how "awful" or "killer" of an ingredient it is. But why?
Any natural vitamin can be just as lethal or devastating in large doses or even when there isn't enough. So why put the spotlight on this synthetic vitamin? 
I must admit that my personal aversion to menadione is because I heard it was bad. There I said it. 
I read up on it a little bit and it does look kind of scary so I am on the fence about it. 
Please tell me why it is so bad? Or why it is not bad at all? Or why other aspects of dog food are "much more important"? I'm genuinely curious because I am (possibly) considering a food that contains menadione. Thanks for any and all opinions, oppositional or no.


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## monster'sdad (Jul 29, 2012)

brindle said:


> Ok so we have all heard about menadione and how "awful" or "killer" of an ingredient it is. But why?
> Any natural vitamin can be just as lethal or devastating in large doses or even when there isn't enough. So why put the spotlight on this synthetic vitamin?
> I must admit that my personal aversion to menadione is because I heard it was bad. There I said it.
> I read up on it a little bit and it does look kind of scary so I am on the fence about it.
> Please tell me why it is so bad? Or why it is not bad at all? Or why other aspects of dog food are "much more important"? I'm genuinely curious because I am (possibly) considering a food that contains menadione. Thanks for any and all opinions, oppositional or no.


Ask for any documentation or reports of any dog being harmed by it.


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## DaViking (Sep 27, 2011)

"toxicity of menadione by nutritional routes is in excess of 1,000 times the requirement. Further, vitamin K3 has been fed to poultry, swine and companion animals for more than 50 years without incident. So, nutritional supplementation with vitamin K3 doesn't appear to be a smoking gun."

"Judicious use of nutritional vitamin K3 is clearly not toxic, so this notion that vitamin K3 as an ingredient in petfoods should not be used is unfounded and should be reversed."

Vitamin K3 in pet food - is it unnecessary and toxic?
Why is Menadione in Weruva? | Tracie Hotchner Blog

Now, there is no minimum vitamin K requirement for dogs and many dog foods (at least the ones I care about) do report measurements of vitamin K on their NA panels without adding K3. So... is this a big issues either way? Not in my opinion.


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## brindle (Mar 14, 2013)

monster'sdad said:


> Ask for any documentation or reports of any dog being harmed by it.


Who would I ask? What about diseases like cancer, liver disease, kidney disease? Could menadione accumulation create issues such as these? Does anyone have an unbiased study of some type? Even on humans or other animals?


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## brindle (Mar 14, 2013)

DaViking said:


> "toxicity of menadione by nutritional routes is in excess of 1,000 times the requirement. Further, vitamin K3 has been fed to poultry, swine and companion animals for more than 50 years without incident. So, nutritional supplementation with vitamin K3 doesn't appear to be a smoking gun."
> 
> "Judicious use of nutritional vitamin K3 is clearly not toxic, so this notion that vitamin K3 as an ingredient in petfoods should not be used is unfounded and should be reversed."
> 
> ...


Do you feed foods with menadione in them DaViking?


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## DaViking (Sep 27, 2011)

brindle said:


> Do you feed foods with menadione in them DaViking?


No I currently don't. Eagle Pack tidied up their original formulas a while back and among other things removed K3 as *they* found no great reasons to keep it. They also removed some probiotics that proved not to make it alive through a dogs GI system, but that's a different story.


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## monster'sdad (Jul 29, 2012)

brindle said:


> Who would I ask? What about diseases like cancer, liver disease, kidney disease? Could menadione accumulation create issues such as these? Does anyone have an unbiased study of some type? Even on humans or other animals?


The people opposed to it on here, ask for real evidence it is harmful. K3 is water soluble so it does not accumulate.

What I use now doesn't have it either, but if it were put back in I wouldn't care.


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## brindle (Mar 14, 2013)

monster'sdad said:


> The people opposed to it on here, ask for real evidence it is harmful. K3 is water soluble so it does not accumulate.
> 
> What I use now doesn't have it either, but if it were put back in I wouldn't care.


I just feel really dubious. Why can't humans consume it?


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## doggiedad (Jan 23, 2011)

why use synthetic since it can found naturally?



monster'sdad said:


> The people opposed to it on here, ask for real evidence it is harmful. K3 is water soluble so it does not accumulate.
> 
> What I use now doesn't have it either, but if it were put back in I wouldn't care.


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## DaViking (Sep 27, 2011)

doggiedad said:


> why use synthetic since it can found naturally?


because k1 an k2 are unstable and are hard to guarantee in a petfood.


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## doggiedad (Jan 23, 2011)

liver, egg yolks, parsley, cabbage (i don't if cabbage is good for a dog), asparagus.



DaViking said:


> because k1 an k2 are unstable and are hard to guarantee in a petfood.


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## DaViking (Sep 27, 2011)

doggiedad said:


> liver, egg yolks, parsley, cabbage (i don't if cabbage is good for a dog), asparagus.


Yes, there are lot's of raw and/or lightly cooked foods that are a source of K1 but in a processed pet food it's a different matter, they are unstable. So, if the goal of the manufacturer is to include vitamin K (as in guaranteeing it) the only option is to add K3. The alternative is to omit vitamin K all together, which by all accounts should be fine too. Those who only feed kibble and for what ever reason want vitamin K in their dogs food a formula with K3 is what they need. Personally I just give my dogs some apple, spinach and eggs.


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