# Bone Danger



## Todd (Jan 13, 2010)

I currently involved in a "debate" on another dog forum. This vet student told this woman to rush right to the vet because her dog swallowed a small raw bone. Give me a break Anyway, here's how he countered my point that there's nothing to worry about;

Well, I appreciate the vote of confidence. Todd is definitely entitled to his opinion and probably has good reason to believe that feeding raw bones can be totally harmless if he's never encountered a problem. So, I can't fault him for thinking otherwise if he's only had success with his prey-model diet. However, Tood, this is a post I made on another topic a couple weeks ago. Keep in mind, when I suggest that individual go to the vet in the instance that it swallows a bone, I don't know what you consider small. A few little speckles of bone here and there, so what. But sharp, small, 1 inch pieces of RAW and cooked bones can do plenty. 

----

Previously posted:

How many of you raw feeders give bones to your dog to eat?

I ask because of this: a lab mix died at the small animal hospital last night after being brought in yesterday morning for vomiting, not eating, and reluctance to move. The owner had been feeding the dog the b.a.r.f. diet and he said he had always put raw chicken bones in with the food b/c he thought it was natural. Well, this little guy's abdomen was very distended and he looked awful. We did an emergency abdominal exploratory after seeing bone fragments in his small intestine on x-ray (or so we thought). Well, it was a risky move because his white cell count
was off so we suspected a perforated intestine (which causes intestinal contents to leak out into the peritoneal cavity = deadly) but had to proceed anyway. Well, it was. A nice tear right through the intestinal wall had allowed all sorts of bad stuff to get out and by the time we closed him up, he was already showing all his signs of septicemia. I went home only to hear the bad news when I came back to school this morning... he didn't make it through the night.

I don't know how big the bones were when the dog started out on them, but, the pieces we took out that had perforated the intestinal wall were about an inch or so long. I've seen and read about this happening from all sorts of bones of all sizes. Personally, if I know a bone (of any size) can somehow (through chewing or whatever) become a sharp object (of any size) it is out of my house immediately.

Here's what I said;

you obviously don't want the bones to be so small that your dog will swallow them without chewing. the bigger the bones, the better, but just because a dogs swallows a small bone doesn't mean you rush to the vet. just observe him yourself as if you sense a problem, then go to the vet. i know of dogs on a prey model diet who literally swallow chicken quarters and pork ribs whole. what about wolves in the wild? if they ran into these problems, they'd be extinct by now. they thrived on raw bones for over 100,000 years! again, you dont want to give a dog little bone pieces hell swallow whole, but the bones that make up chicken quarters of something like that are fine because it in its natural state. problems you see at the vets is probably because of either cooked bones or because of swallowing bones too small to even chew. but again, if your dog swallows a bone by accident, dont panick and run to the vet. observe her and if you sense anything wrong then go to the vet. she will be fine. I also attempted to explain that the chemical makeup of cooked bones and raw bones are completely different. It's not just about hardness or softness.

*Just wondering if you guys would like to comment on this subject.


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## malluver1005 (Nov 15, 2009)

Kinda sounds like this lady broke off small pieces of the bone herself and then gave them to the dog...


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## Todd (Jan 13, 2010)

malluver1005 said:


> Kinda sounds like this lady broke off small pieces of the bone herself and then gave them to the dog...


yea that could probably cause a problem, but just flat raw bones from a raw diet in their natural state should be no problem whatsoever the way I see it. 

Vets:wink:


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## malluver1005 (Nov 15, 2009)

^^Yes, raw bones should be no problem at all. As long as they are bigger than the dog's mouth... :biggrin:


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## rannmiller (Jun 27, 2008)

I agree, but it would be nice to know what kind of bones they were feeding this dog that caused this, just so we know for sure. I hate that stupid BARF diet because it seems like it just encourages people to jump on board without doing any research. "Oh add raw bones to the diet? well those aren't safe if they're whole, better smash them up for my dog so he doesn't have to worry about choking!"

Like I said, I don't know for sure that's what happened, but it is possible. My dogs have never gotten a pre-smashed bone and they've never had a problem with the bones they do eat.


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## Todd (Jan 13, 2010)

rannmiller said:


> I agree, but it would be nice to know what kind of bones they were feeding this dog that caused this, just so we know for sure. I hate that stupid BARF diet because it seems like it just encourages people to jump on board without doing any research. "Oh add raw bones to the diet? well those aren't safe if they're whole, better smash them up for my dog so he doesn't have to worry about choking!"
> 
> Like I said, I don't know for sure that's what happened, but it is possible. My dogs have never gotten a pre-smashed bone and they've never had a problem with the bones they do eat.


here's the exact question the woman originally asked;

I wanted to reply on the news section about bones if they are good or bad for dogs but I can't reply to the thread. It was said in that article that bones are good if too large for the dog to swallow. It was also stated that small bones can damage the gastrointestinal tract of the dog. What is the first thing that we should do if the dog swallowed a small bone?

Here's the immediate reply from the vet student;

take him to the vet

Trust me, you don't want to play around with broken and splintered bone pieces in your dog's GI tract

Here's what the next woman said after I replied;

Mr. Vega is absolutely correct. He is a veterinary student. I'll take his advice over those who are offering only uneducated opinions any day!!!

And finally here's my come back;

i wouldn't quite go as far as to say uneducated opinions. I know tons of people who feed their dogs a raw prey model based diet with plenty of bones, and have been doing so for years and years will no problem whatsoever. 

also wolves in the wild eat bones all the time and have been surviving for over 100,000 years. go figure.

by the way, are vets the same people who recommend foods such as iams, purina, or science diet??? GO FIGURE!!!!!

(Think I was a little out of line? I couldn't help myself)

The last lady said... well, wolves are USED to eating bones. Dogs are not adapted to eating them. 

I responded... Oh, don't give me that BULLSHIT, then i calmed myself down, took a deep breath, and pressed delete instead of enter LOL.


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## RawFedDogs (Jun 16, 2008)

I would like to know more about what the vet student said. I have been feeding raw for almost 8 years without a single bone problem. My dogs swallow chicken drumsticks stolen from the cats completely whole. They will chomp a chicken quarter a few times then swallow them whole. They eat the bones in a Boston Butt pork roast regularly. I'm just not the least bit concerned about bones. Dogs are well equipped to handle them and are born with the instince to eat them.

I have been on several raw feeding lists and have never heard anyone say their dog had a perforated intestine. In all my years of participating on these lists, I have heard of TWO dog in nearly 8 years and reading well over 100,000 posts that had a bone problem. One got a blockage and one got a bone stuck in his throat.

I have heard of many more dogs getting things like balls, chew toys, rags, wash cloths, etc stuck than I have bones. I had a cat die from a blockage 5 years ago. Had a necropsy done on him and it turned out to be a piece of cloth blocking his intestine.

My personal feelings are that there was something wrong with this dog. I think it was a dog problem and not a bone problem. Intestines are pretty tough. I have known bones to make the trip all the way through them without causing a problem. I have had vets tell me about perforated intestines but when questioned about them they will admit, "Oh, I didn't actually see the dog, one of my collegues did."


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## malluver1005 (Nov 15, 2009)

RawFedDogs said:


> I have heard of many more dogs getting things like balls, chew toys, rags, wash cloths, etc stuck than I have bones.


Don't forget about squeekers too  I have heard of many dogs taking out the squeeker of a toy and swallowing it.


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## Jodysmom (Jan 9, 2010)

If this woman is just giving raw dog bones to her dog and not following the ratio of 80/10/10 then the bones could cause a problem..right? Isn't this
why we give our dogs bones with meat on them?


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## RawFedDogs (Jun 16, 2008)

Jodysmom said:


> If this woman is just giving raw dog bones to her dog and not following the ratio of 80/10/10 then the bones could cause a problem..right? Isn't this
> why we give our dogs bones with meat on them?


Not neccessarily. 80-10-10 is just an arbitrary number someone came up with. It has no scientific meaning. What is the meat, fat, calcium ratio in your own diet? Bet you don't know. Bet you don't care. Why make a big deal out of it in your dog's diet? 

The meat is digested off the bone pretty quickly after it enters the stomach. If the dog crunched the bone while chewing, and I'm pretty sure he did, it would have the same edges on it once the meat started digesting off.


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## DaneMama (Jun 27, 2008)

It's from stories like this one that scare so many people and turn vets off of a raw diet. I personally think this situation could have been avoided if the OP did some more research because it sounds to me like she had no idea what she was doing. What forum is this from...I would be interested to go see it. 

From the sounds of it I say that the OP was just giving raw bones with raw meat...not raw MEATY bones. I would need to know more about the dog to even think about what the actual problem was.

How long had this dog been on raw? Newly switched dogs systems cannot handle bones as experienced raw fed dogs. This is the reason why people ask about bone fragments in their dog's stool in the first few weeks. If this was a newly transitioned dog AND the owner was feeding it inappropriate types of bones, even if they were raw...I can see the prolem starting from that point alone.

I would need to know EXACTLY what kinds of bones this dog was fed. I know that it says just chicken bones were added to the food, but that doesn't tell us if the dog was being fed other types of bones for rec chewing. If the owner was giving it raw beef bones that he was breaking off pieces himself, that I can see causing an issue. We all know that beef bones are typically VERY dense so if he was splintering off raw bits off of a weight bearing bone...those shards would act like little knives in the dogs system, if new to raw.



Jodysmom said:


> If this woman is just giving raw dog bones to her dog and not following the ratio of 80/10/10 then the bones could cause a problem..right? Isn't this
> why we give our dogs bones with meat on them?


You are absolutely 100% correct. If the owner was feeding JUST bones that could easily cause an issue. This is exactly why we feed raw meaty bones that are big enough for dogs to at least crunch a few times before swallowing.

Bone fed in exclusivity can cause serious constipation. Bone acts as a constipator which is why we suggest upping the bone portion of the diet if dogs have loose stool. But I don't think this is what the OP was doing. It sounds to me that he was feeding raw meat and pieces of raw bones because he said that he was adding raw bone to her dog's diet, not adding raw meaty bones.

The 80/10/10 is just a guideline so that people can get an idea of how much of each to include in the diet. We suggest people follow this guideline so they just don't arbitrarily feed too much of one thing but not enough of another...and end up with a sick dog. This ratio wasn't just pulled out of thin air either. We adhere to the idea of feeding a dogs natural diet as close as we can get it. Most prey items contain mostly muscle meat, some bone and some organ. There are some people out there that need numbers and figures to tell them exactly what to do. This is absolutely just fine, but with experience feeding raw they will see that it is all just a guideline and you pay more attention to bowel movements and body condition then the percentages to feed of what.

You most certainly can feed just a bone to your dog for the sake of recreational chewing but the ONLY one that I would suggest is raw beef ribs. Technically they have meat on them, but not much at all. Our dogs clean them off and then gnaw on them for a week or so until
the next serving of beef ribs.

Welcome to the boards :biggrin: :wink:


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## Todd (Jan 13, 2010)

danemama08 said:


> It's from stories like this one that scare so many people and turn vets off of a raw diet. I personally think this situation could have been avoided if the OP did some more research because it sounds to me like she had no idea what she was doing. What forum is this from...I would be interested to go see it.
> 
> From the sounds of it I say that the OP was just giving raw bones with raw meat...not raw MEATY bones. I would need to know more about the dog to even think about what the actual problem was.
> 
> ...


The forum is i-love-dogs.com/forums

here is a link to the entire thread;

All About Bones - Page 2 - Dog Health & Nutrition - Dog Forums - I-Love-Dogs.com

Here's what someone said today about wolves and dogs being different;

First to note, I think there is some confusion when linking wolves to dogs. Wolves to do come in multiple sizes. As one who was raised and been around wolves nearly my entire life to assume a 10 lbs dog in anyway should be eating the same as a 140lbs wolf is not a comparable comparison. Wolves are Wolves, dogs are dogs and with this man has imprinted the creation of dogs only based on Wolves. Had he not, we would only have wolves today. The assumption that what wolves have done for 100,000 years has no bearing any longer when it comes to dogs as dogs come in to many multiple sizes therefore large or small, cooked or raw the potential is always there. As there is no fail safe to ensure that a dog will never have a problem no matter how large or small it begs that one lean on the side of caution. 
As for panic, I never stated anything about panic or even taking the dog to the vet. 
My contention to use eye bones is that they are good to nurse on with regards to teething and gnawing with little to no chance to actually eat them. 
If members elect to give their dogs bones, that is there choice but Mr Vega notes what has been an issue for many years where in fact the chance of bones causing internal issues does exist and in the case as he described, had the people taken your advice and not panic and wait, would it not had made more sense to get the dog in promptly instead of watching it for a few days or whatever time frame you imply is not panicking. Common sense is you have any sense your dog is in danger you address it, not sit around and observe it when fact is you are not qualified to do so let alone have no access to the tools your vet does to properly diagnose a problem. 
As for wolves thriving on bones for all those years. That is a great misconception. Granted they ate them but they thrived on the meat from the carcass. It is not uncommon at all to see the skeletal remains left behind by wolves once done with the prey. The emphasis on bones when it came to wolves primarily was when their food source was near extinction or when the land was bare of prey. It was then not uncommon for them to eat skeletal remains of others kills. 
Todays breeds are not wolves and the continued linking to them only creates more confusion. Dogs today are dogs, they are not wolves. Whether it be pack mentality or socialization. Much of what we see in dogs is only a small resemblance to their far distant relative. 
Wolves instinctively hunt as this is the only means they have for food. Most dog breeds do not carry these instincts. Many dogs will chase prey which implies they are hunting but the hunting also involves the capture and killing of the prey. Unfortunately most dogs that chase ironically don't complete the step of capture and kill, they just have the instincts to chase. In those rare cases that they do chase and kill, they do not eat. So using the premise that wolves do this therefore dogs should really is not the same. 
The practice of giving dogs bones though it has gone on for years does not necessarily make it good or bad. It is like all things, something that people figure is good for them so therefore we do it. But again, I only give bones to my large breed dogs and when I say large breed dogs I should have clarified, I only gave them to Thor my late 175lbs Mal/Wolf. Granted, he did have the power to shatter a large beef bone and occasionally ate it. This in no way implies I would give one of my Miniature Pinschers a bone. Even though as terriers they did originally live off rats and mice. I don't feel the risk of an internal issue is worth it. But this is my opinion and mine alone. Each has their own opinion as to why they give or don't give bones to dogs.

Here's my reply: The comparison between wolves and dogs is not always physical characteristics, but rather genetical characteristics. When it comes to diet, the digestive systems of wolves and dogs are virtually the same, which can handle similar diets. Yes some dogs are very small and shouldn't be eating the same things as bigger dogs. That's why you must be smart when selecting the correct size for the dog. For example, on a prey model diet you may feed a adult labrador a chicken quarter for a meal. maybe a 10lb dog couldn't handle that, so you'd give the smaller dog a small chicken wing or something to that nature, or even spit the chicken quarter into several sections. Overall, dogs have the same digestive systems as wolves do but both species can be far different sizes. All this means is you should be smart when selecting the righ size bone/piece of meat for that given dog. 

On another note, you probably dont want to give your dog a plain bone. its a different story when it's a raw meaty bone. 

Here's a question for the vet student... the dog that died was on a BARF diet right? was the bone he had eaten a plain bone or a meaty bone? what type of bone was it?


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## Sir (Feb 4, 2010)

*Interesting post*

Ha! The neighbor behind me has two small dogs. The mini pin hunts, catches and kills snakes/field mice. 

Did this vet person work for the National Guard? Looks like the want to rescue everything! :wink:


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## Todd (Jan 13, 2010)

Sir said:


> Ha! The neighbor behind me has two small dogs. The mini pin hunts, catches and kills snakes/field mice.
> 
> Did this vet person work for the National Guard? Looks like the want to rescue everything! :wink:


You know what, I was thinking of something just last night before I went to bed...

Vets are awful cautious when it comes to raw diets, bones, and things like that, but they seem pretty careless when it comes to feeding kibble


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## Todd (Jan 13, 2010)

yo guys... the vet replied to my inquires once again. Here's what he said...

The owner stated the dog was on the barf upon presentation and that he had been feeding it raw chicken w/ bones. Ha it took us a few minutes but figured out it was a chicken femur. But, it should also be noted that I've seen and read about other dogs who had either perforated intestines or impaction due to some of the chicken wings, vertebrae, etc...

I then asked him if the bone was pre cut or crushed or just in its full form. I also asked if it was the plain bone or part of a RMB. still waiting for reply.


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## spookychick13 (Jan 26, 2010)

Todd said:


> yea that could probably cause a problem, but just flat raw bones from a raw diet in their natural state should be no problem whatsoever the way I see it.
> 
> Vets:wink:


As an aside, don't be anti-vet just because a few online ones come off poorly.


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## DaneMama (Jun 27, 2008)

I agree with spookie...don't be anti-vet at all. Just understand that they are not canine nutritionists and have very little background in nutrition at all. Vets for the most part a fabulous at what they do, and they actually have a lot of knowledge believe it or not. Just not in regards to nutrition which does have a huge impact on health with our animals. I say to just find a vet that you feel comfortable with, that wont give you a hard time at your decision to feed your animals...or just agree to disagree with your vet regarding what you feed.


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## Todd (Jan 13, 2010)

danemama08 said:


> I agree with spookie...don't be anti-vet at all. Just understand that they are not canine nutritionists and have very little background in nutrition at all. Vets for the most part a fabulous at what they do, and they actually have a lot of knowledge believe it or not. Just not in regards to nutrition which does have a huge impact on health with our animals. I say to just find a vet that you feel comfortable with, that wont give you a hard time at your decision to feed your animals...or just agree to disagree with your vet regarding what you feed.


Good point. I just feel like they aren't willing to compromise or think logically at times. They act like just because something is said in a veterinary text book means that is must be true. It seems like some verts don't always use their own judgement. I shouldn't say vert in general, rather SOME vets or even many. It's just difficult to understand why a vet would feed their dogs poor quality foods like iams. If they love animals so much, you'd think they'd do some additional research on their own online or something, wouldn't you? (instead on relying on what they're taught especially regarding nutrition, which often are taught by representatives of major food manufactures. It's almost like they're oblivious)


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## LindaP (Jan 14, 2010)

As I read through this, there is a line from the TV show "House" that keeps running through my mind--"everybody lies." That's harsh, but who really knows what this whole story is? No doubt the dog died, and perhaps bone was involved. I don't want to turn a blind eye to real risks, but it's hard to know what this dog really ate. Accidents happen and animals, not to mention people, sometimes die. It's this kind of posting that can put the movement back big time. Of course, it's easy for everyone to ignore the risks associated with crap food that takes it's toll over the long term is serious, costly, and deadly. It can be trying to march to the beat of a different drummer, which is what we're all doing. Carry on!


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## GermanSheperdlover (Nov 15, 2009)

OK, I am not a raw feeder but something did jump out at me. I have a hard time getting just one line in quote, so this what she or he said 

I don't know what you consider small. A few little speckles of bone here and there, so what. But sharp, small, 1 inch pieces of RAW and cooked bones can do plenty. 

I had a major issue with a COOKED steak bone. Surgery and the whole nine yards. I am not against feeding raw and think it is great but in this case my money would be on the fact the bone was cooked.


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## Todd (Jan 13, 2010)

exactly! even if the bone did contribute to this that's no reason to bash bones in a dog's diet. something's bound to happen to at least 1 dog out of the hundreds and hundreds of others eating bones as well. S**t happens._(Watch the language, Todd. Edited by RFD)_ Hell, this applies to virtually anything. let's take irritable bowel syndrome for example. out of 1,000 people using a certain supplement, maybe 1 or 2 people contract some sort of illness as a result. does this mean that the supplement should be discontinued or not recommended just because of the fact that 1% of people had a bad falling out with it, while the other 99% of people were just fins??? I don't think so! same applies with dogs. There are risks with every decision you make. some more risky than others, but still risks with anything. just because ONE dog dies from eating a bone doesn't mean that the same thing is at all likely to happen to another dog. It's also like the risk of being eaten by a shark. you have a 1 in 100,000 chance of being attacked by a shark. does this mean you should stay out of the water forever??? as i always like to say, great accomplishments come with risks. there are risks everywhere and if we tried to avoid them all, we'd be living in a freaking bubble! Further more, who's to say commercial kibble doesn't do just as much damage to dogs if not more, on a MUCH higher scale!


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## Todd (Jan 13, 2010)

the vet student finally responded to my questions;

He had indicated that he just tossed his dog a handful of meat, bone in. So, yes, I suppose it was a "raw meaty bone" that was not broken or cut before consumption. Why do you ask? I can't imagine the presence of any meat on the bone having some major influence as to whether it will be hazardous. 

Keep in mind... I am on no campaign to try to convince you (or anyone else) to change the way you're feeding your dog. If you're a hardcore raw guy that just loves to see his dog chow down on raw meat, 'yay.' I doubt if I could convince you anyway, so I won't waste time trying. What I am interested in is making sure that when owners decide to go with this "raw route" they recognize the potential hazards associated with it - not just going into it blindly. As I like to say - an uninformed decision is no decision at all.


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## spookychick13 (Jan 26, 2010)

You also have to understand, vets have to err on the side of caution.
If a vet online tells you 'Oh go ahead and feed your dog a chicken neck, it's fine.' Say you have a 180lb mastiff that swallows a little chicken neck in one gulp and it gets stuck in his throat, he chokes, he dies. Boom, lawsuit.

We have to warn against EVERY POSSIBLE DANGER. So he'd probably NOT recommend feeding your dog anything remotely dangerous just to cover his own a$$. 

Sadly, people are sue happy this day and age.


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## Todd (Jan 13, 2010)

spookychick13 said:


> You also have to understand, vets have to err on the side of caution.
> If a vet online tells you 'Oh go ahead and feed your dog a chicken neck, it's fine.' Say you have a 180lb mastiff that swallows a little chicken neck in one gulp and it gets stuck in his throat, he chokes, he dies. Boom, lawsuit.
> 
> We have to warn against EVERY POSSIBLE DANGER. So he'd probably NOT recommend feeding your dog anything remotely dangerous just to cover his own a$$.
> ...


What you're saying makes sense. People are constantly looking to file a lawsuit. However, he didn't have to respond to this bone question in the forum at all.


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## RawFedDogs (Jun 16, 2008)

spookychick13 said:


> If a vet online tells you 'Oh go ahead and feed your dog a chicken neck, it's fine.' Say you have a 180lb mastiff that swallows a little chicken neck in one gulp and it gets stuck in his throat, he chokes, he dies. Boom, lawsuit.


Hehe, an 180lb mastiff can swallow a chicken neck just fine. My Great Danes sometimes swallow chicken drumsticks whole when they manage to steal one from the cats. :smile: It's the small to medium size dogs that would have problems.


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## Todd (Jan 13, 2010)

the vet student replies once more;

Ok. Again, I'm not trying to convince you to do anything you don't want to do. If you wish to argue with someone, I'm sure you can search the web and find plenty of people willing to engage in some heated debate over bones, sharks, irritable bowel syndrome, or whatever other random topic you can think of. And, for the record, it wasn't just one dog. That was just one example that was fresh on my mind since I had just gone into surgery the night before and the case meant a lot to me. It is not uncommon AT ALL for dogs to come into the ER here at school for intestinal perforation or impaction with subsequent sepsis - all due to bones. So, I'll repeat this in case it wasn't clear:

I have no desire to try to convince you or anyone else to change what you're doing. I am simply providing information about the potential adverse effects of feeding raw and cooked bones to a dog. One last time: This is just information for those who seek it.


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## RawFedDogs (Jun 16, 2008)

Todd said:


> It is not uncommon AT ALL for dogs to come into the ER here at school for intestinal perforation or impaction with subsequent sepsis - all due to bones.


Tell her you don't believe her because I don't.


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## Todd (Jan 13, 2010)

RawFedDogs said:


> Tell her you don't believe her because I don't.


for some reason i dont believe him either:wink:

he acts like i'm trying to get into a heated argument with him when all i'm trying to do is engage in a friendly debate. seems like kind of an ass to me.


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