# Spay and Neuter?



## rannmiller (Jun 27, 2008)

This conversation came up on another thread so I thought I'd start a proper thread for it here so everyone else can jump in too if they aren't keeping up on the other. 

What are the pros and cons of spaying and neutering? 

When should it be done?

I've heard large and giant breed dogs are supposed to wait longer to get neutered so they can grow properly (or something like that) yet I talked to a lady with a Great Pyrenees puppy the other day who said her vet wants the dog's spay done around 7 months of age. I tried to tell her to do a little more research before jumping ahead with that because I've heard giant breed dogs are supposed to wait longer to get fixed but she thought that 7 months was "waiting longer!"


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## rockymtsweetie82 (Jul 24, 2008)

I still have my qualms with both. Neutering, I'm doing. Duckie will be neutered. I feel it's going to help with his male adolesence stage and his dominance over a larger dog. Also, it will help with potty training and he won't want to mark in my house. Spaying, well, I still am not sure on that either yet. I want to spay her, in hopes that it does help with her DA a little and her protection / territorial side. However, with all the issues, I'm not sure if it's the right thing to do with her.


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## ChattyCathy (Nov 22, 2008)

OMG! I went on the internet to see what "it" said about spaying and neutering and so far, check this out, is what is represented in what I've read so far...

"Today, veterinarians know that a spay or neuter surgery can be performed as early as 6 to 8 weeks of age with no harmful effects."

I thought 6 mos. was too early and now these sites say 6 - 8 wks. Boy, I have to do more checking on this one.


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## rockymtsweetie82 (Jul 24, 2008)

I honestly wouldn't spay or neuter my pets that early. Duckie is going to wait til he's 6 months because that's what I've always heard and been comfortable with my other animals I've had. When we had Mako, they wanted to neuter him at 8 weeks. I told them to jump off a bridge. Exactly that. I would never have them cut into my 8 week old puppy after just having him home and not fully adjusted/growing.


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## chowder (Sep 7, 2008)

A lot of the Humane societies are neutering and spaying puppies now at 8 weeks so they can have it done before they adopt them out. That is why they are saying it is safe and has no effect on them but I don't believe it. We were always taught that 6 months was the earliest age for both surgeries at vet tech school. The thought was to spay a female puppy before her first heat to greatly reduce the chance of mammary tumors (all three of my mother-in -laws unspayed dogs had mammary tumors), and to neuter a male puppy before he started producing too much testosterone and developed dominance behaviors that would remain after neutering. 
There is another theory that says neutered dogs may grow too much bigger and develop joint problems so wait to neuter them until a year of age but that is a minority theory. I was going to wait until Rocky was a year old to neuter him but he was starting to hump everything in site, including the poor 12 year old Lhasa so he was neutered at 5 months and he never does it anymore.
There you go.....more information then you probably wanted!


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## rockymtsweetie82 (Jul 24, 2008)

That's what Duckie's already started doing! Humping China!! He's only 3 months old (possibly older but dang I don't remember lol)


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## RawFedDogs (Jun 16, 2008)

chowder said:


> I was going to wait until Rocky was a year old to neuter him but he was starting to hump everything in site, including the poor 12 year old Lhasa so he was neutered at 5 months and he never does it anymore.


I don't think neutering has anything to do with humping. My Golden, Zack, used to hump his sister, Skylar, all their lives until he died at 12yo. He was neutered and she was spayed. There probably wasn't a day that went by that Zack didn't hump Skylar.

I know with male Great Danes, you don't want to netuer them until they are around 18 months old. They need the testosterone to grow the big heads and fill out masculine muscular bodies. If you neuter before then, they will likely grow up to look like girls. :smile:


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## chowder (Sep 7, 2008)

I know that with larger breeds they are recommending to wait longer to get them neutered now because of growth issues and I did have joint problems with my other Chow that we neutered early (he ended up being 80 pounds and much too large for his breed). 
We got Rocky from a private rescue group and part of the requirements of adopting him was that he was neutered before he hit 6 months old. We had to supply them with proof of neutering by a certain date. I would have preferred waiting, but he is doing fine. I know the thoughts on humping vs neutering are varied. My other boy chow never humped a thing in his life either before or after he was neutered so I have no reference with him. Rocky went after everything that moved or even resembled an animal (ie...teddybears!). He hasn't done it since he was neutered. I was taught that once they are old enough for it to have become a habit, neutering won't change the behavior pattern so maybe he just hadn't learned to do it often enough or developed his little puppy brain enough.


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## ChattyCathy (Nov 22, 2008)

rockymtsweetie82 said:


> That's what Duckie's already started doing! Humping China!! He's only 3 months old (possibly older but dang I don't remember lol)


I have a 4 yr old who humps my 1 1/2 yr old dog. I don't think spaying/neutering has anything to do w/it. I think that behavior is more about control.


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## ChattyCathy (Nov 22, 2008)

Here's something I found that I thought was interesting...

"Myths and facts
There are many myths about canine reproductive needs. Chiefly among these are the suspicion that neutering turns a male into a sissy and spaying causes a female to get fat and to lament her lost capacity.

The truth is that male dogs, especially those with a submissive personality, are usually better pets if they are neutered. They may have less desire to roam, to mark territory (including furniture), and, if neutered before sexual maturity, they may be less likely to exert dominance over family members. They may also be healthier pets: no testicles means no testicular cancer.

A word of caution, however. Neutering a dog reduces production of testosterone but does not eliminate this hormone. Thus a neutered dog, especially if he has a dominant character, may also retain his desire to roam and an assertive or even aggressive personality. Owners who depend on neutering to resolve behavior problems run a high risk of being disappointed unless they also train the pet to have good manners at home and in public.

Females also tend to be better pets if they do not experience oestrus every six-to-nine months. Heat cycles bring hormonal changes that can lead to personality changes, and oestrus females must be confined to prevent unwanted pregnancies. Repeated heat cycles may subject the reproductive system to uterine and mammary cancers as they age. Some bitches experience false pregnancies that can be a bother to deal with and uterine infections that can be fatal.

While the hormone changes caused by sterilization can contribute to overweight, dogs and bitches do not generally get fat simply as a result of spay or neuter surgery. Like other mammals, they gain weight if they eat too much and exercise too little or are genetically programmed to be hefty. Weight gain that follows sterilization surgery may be linked to those hormone changes but will be aggravated by continuing to feed a high energy diet to a dog that is reducing the need for energy as he reaches his adult size. Excess energy in the food becomes excess fat on the body.

As far as we know, dogs do not lament their lost capability to reproduce. This is a different species than ours; they reproduce to ensure survival of their kind, not to nurture a pup for 18 years, watch it go off to college, marry, establish a career, and produce grandchildren. Bitches nurse their pups for a few weeks, teach them to behave like dogs, and go on. Males know nothing of fatherhood; they do not recognize pups as their own."

Here's the website in case you're interested:
Dog Owner's Guide: Spay/Neuter Surgery


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## ChattyCathy (Nov 22, 2008)

Sorry guys this is my last post for a minute....

One last thing, most of the sites I read say 6-8 wks. is ok. And, only one so far said before the dog's first heat (in female) and that can come as early as 6 mos to as late as 12 - 14 months. Go figure.

The following website talks about neutering (in labs)and may answer some of your questions about neutering in general

Early Neutering


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## rockymtsweetie82 (Jul 24, 2008)

I really don't think that Duckie's humping is caused by a lack of control by any means.


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## whiteleo (Sep 7, 2008)

Isn't there something out there about males possibly getting bone cancer or some kind of cancer if they are neutered too early?


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## ChattyCathy (Nov 22, 2008)

rockymtsweetie82 said:


> I really don't think that Duckie's humping is caused by a lack of control by any means.


No, no, no... I don't mean lack of control. I mean that the humping dog shows that he is the pack leader... the one in control. The head honcho, so to say and that's how he is exerting his control or dominance. It's a dominance behavior.


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## ChattyCathy (Nov 22, 2008)

whiteleo said:


> Isn't there something out there about males possibly getting bone cancer or some kind of cancer if they are neutered too early?


don't know about bone cancer but here's a quote from the website I added in my post above..

"The truth is that male dogs, especially those with a submissive personality, are usually better pets if they are neutered. They may have less desire to roam, to mark territory (including furniture), and, if neutered before sexual maturity, they may be less likely to exert dominance over family members. They may also be healthier pets: no testicles means no testicular cancer"


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## rockymtsweetie82 (Jul 24, 2008)

Either way it is surprising as he is only just now turning 3 months old. He doesn't do it often and all China has to do is sit on his head to get him to stop, which means, I'm assuming, to exert her dominance.


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## rannmiller (Jun 27, 2008)

My roommate's puppy used to hump my Milo all the time when he was about 3 - 4 months old (Milo was neutered but Kody wasn't at the time). Now that Kody is neutered and nearly a year old, every chance Milo gets, he will hump Kody so they've switched rolls! This is mostly funny because Kody is not about 3 times taller than Milo. Last time i caught Milo doing it, it was when my roommate was scolding Kody for something so she had him in a sit and was holding his collar and talking right into his face. Milo snuck up on him and started humping him while he was subdued, it was hilarious! 

On the other hand, neutering has helped at least two male dogs I know of to stop marking/peeing in the house, so I know that's an obvious benefit.


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## ChattyCathy (Nov 22, 2008)

rannmiller said:


> My roommate's puppy used to hump my Milo all the time when he was about 3 - 4 months old (Milo was neutered but Kody wasn't at the time). Now that Kody is neutered and nearly a year old, every chance Milo gets, he will hump Kody so they've switched rolls! This is mostly funny because Kody is not about 3 times taller than Milo. Last time i caught Milo doing it, it was when my roommate was scolding Kody for something so she had him in a sit and was holding his collar and talking right into his face. Milo snuck up on him and started humping him while he was subdued, it was hilarious!


Very funny, ha, ha.... :biggrin:


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## Postal (Jan 23, 2009)

Well, I hope 9 months isn't too soon because Brian is going in for his operation Thursday of next week :redface:


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## Guest (Feb 1, 2009)

rannmiller said:


> What are the pros and cons of spaying and neutering?


As someone who works with animal rescue, the obvious # 1 reason for spaying and neutering is to prevent pet overpopulation. There are just way too many homeless pets being euthanized every day because pet owners don't take responsibility to spay and / or neuter their pets. I would say, unless you plan to carefully breed your dog (and have homes lined up for the pups) then you should definitely consider spaying and / or neutering your dog rather than contribute to the pet overpopulation problem.


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## ChattyCathy (Nov 22, 2008)

rockymtsweetie82 said:


> Either way it is surprising as he is only just now turning 3 months old. He doesn't do it often and all China has to do is sit on his head to get him to stop, which means, I'm assuming, to exert her dominance.


He's still very young. He's just learning what he can and can't get away with with China that's all. :smile:


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## domari (Jun 17, 2008)

RawFedDogs said:


> I don't think neutering has anything to do with humping. My Golden, Zack, used to hump his sister, Skylar, all their lives until he died at 12yo. He was neutered and she was spayed. There probably wasn't a day that went by that Zack didn't hump Skylar.
> 
> I know with male Great Danes, you don't want to netuer them until they are around 18 months old. They need the testosterone to grow the big heads and fill out masculine muscular bodies. If you neuter before then, they will likely grow up to look like girls. :smile:


I agree. 
Humping is more of a dominance thing, neutering doesn't prevent it. I have three males, three females. Two males were neutered as adults between 1-2 years old. The other male was neutered at 5 months. The male who was neutered at 5 mo is the only one who humps and marks, he's the alpha male and wants everyone to know it. 
All three females were spayed before their first heat, one of them humps the other dogs, including the males. 

All mine are mixed breeds so I have no clue how large they would have been if not spayed or neutered. If dogs aren't going to be shown I don't think it should really matter if they're the perfect size or head shape.


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## rockymtsweetie82 (Jul 24, 2008)

domari said:


> I agree.
> Humping is more of a dominance thing, neutering doesn't prevent it. I have three males, three females. Two males were neutered as adults between 1-2 years old. The other male was neutered at 5 months. The male who was neutered at 5 mo is the only one who humps and marks, he's the alpha male and wants everyone to know it.
> All three females were spayed before their first heat, one of them humps the other dogs, including the males.
> 
> All mine are mixed breeds so I have no clue how large they would have been if not spayed or neutered. If dogs aren't going to be shown I don't think it should really matter if they're the perfect size or head shape.


I am looking to bring a young female dog into my house because China loves puppies. But I've always heard that you can't bring two females to live happily in one house. You have three. Please share your wisdom with me so I know how to make them get along! Thanks!!


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## MandyPug (Sep 21, 2008)

rockymtsweetie82 said:


> I am looking to bring a young female dog into my house because China loves puppies. But I've always heard that you can't bring two females to live happily in one house. You have three. Please share your wisdom with me so I know how to make them get along! Thanks!!


I had 2 female dogs in my house for 2 years before i got my third female. There was the normal sort of doggy pack assertion thing for about a week and then my older female (ruby) mothered my younger one (Chai) until she got older and chai took over the dominant role. Then Izzie came along and trumped them all as far as pack dominance goes, but they're all friends no fights.

But back to the topic at hand. I fully support spaying and neutering for the common pet owner. My 2 older girls are spayed, and izzie is going in soon to get spayed but i am looking into just a hystorectomy instead of an oveohystorectomy. It leaves the ovaries intact which keeps the production of the hormones which is supposed to help reduce the occurrence of bone degeneration in the females. 
I fully advocate neutering though since my aunt just lost her 3 year old flat coat retriever male to testicular cancer. He was a show dog and it's not like she did anything wrong by not neutering him cause he was a very good specimen; but i can't go saying to everyone not to spay and neuter their dogs because of the horror stories that happen to some dogs that do get spayed. There are horror stories either way and in my personal opinion if the dog is not working or showing, there is really no need for the dog to be intact.


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## chowder (Sep 7, 2008)

rockymtsweetie82 said:


> I am looking to bring a young female dog into my house because China loves puppies. But I've always heard that you can't bring two females to live happily in one house. You have three. Please share your wisdom with me so I know how to make them get along! Thanks!!


It entirely depends on the girls and the personality. I had 4 femaies living in the same house. The oldest (lab) was the dominant female. The first chow just wanted to be left alone. The second chow always wanted to be dominant and would cause fights all the time with with all the other dogs Except the lab. Somehow she knew not to mess with the REAL dominant dog. That was my only trouble making girl. The Lhasa loves all dogs and will get along with any sex, male or female. She would curl up and sleep with the older girls who had actually raised her from puppy hood. 
So, 3 out of 4 of my girls were great together. I have always had at least 2 females at a time and it was only that one time that I had a problem with fights. I have learned a lot more about training since then (and I dont' have two little kids at home anymore so I have more time.) so maybe I could have raised her differently now and helped her adjust better if I had a second chance with her.


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## ChattyCathy (Nov 22, 2008)

rockymtsweetie82 said:


> I am looking to bring a young female dog into my house because China loves puppies. But I've always heard that you can't bring two females to live happily in one house. You have three. Please share your wisdom with me so I know how to make them get along! Thanks!!


I have two females. One is four and I got her last January (she weighs 50-60 lbs.) and the other is 1 1/2 and she weighs around 20 pounds (I've had her since she was a puppy). They get along really well. They are always together. Whether sleeping w/the little ones head on the big dog or playing, they are never far apart. There are moments though when the big dog wants to play a little too hard w/the little one and the little one has learned to be submissive or run to the back door. And, the big one will hump the little one at times as well. But, I think that's normal behavior. By all means, bring in another female dog.


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## rockymtsweetie82 (Jul 24, 2008)

Thanks to everyone with the thoughts and advice! I am hoping that I am better prepared now than I was even earlier today! My frame of mind has changed a lot just by reading the replies. Again, thanks so much! I've always wanted a GSD female since the one I grew up with died when I was younger. Now's my chance!!


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## ChattyCathy (Nov 22, 2008)

rockymtsweetie82 said:


> Thanks to everyone with the thoughts and advice! I am hoping that I am better prepared now than I was even earlier today! My frame of mind has changed a lot just by reading the replies. Again, thanks so much! I've always wanted a GSD female since the one I grew up with died when I was younger. Now's my chance!!


Good Luck! And, keep us posted and send pictures too!!!!!! :biggrin:


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## rannmiller (Jun 27, 2008)

And just for the record I have 2 males and 2 females all peacefully coexisting in my house right now :biggrin:


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## domari (Jun 17, 2008)

rockymtsweetie82 said:


> I am looking to bring a young female dog into my house because China loves puppies. But I've always heard that you can't bring two females to live happily in one house. You have three. Please share your wisdom with me so I know how to make them get along! Thanks!!


Mine don't get along at all!! If anyone has wisdom on how to make peace between them, let me know! We've had several bad fights and I keep one of them separate from the other two. My males all get along perfect, the girls are horrid. 

We first had two female pups we adopted within a month of each other when they were 8 and 12 weeks old. They grew up together and are like sisters. When they were around a year and a half old, we took in a little 5 week old female pup, the two older females were good with her and no problems. All the females were spayed as puppies.

Fast forward two years... Youngest female grows up, I think she wants to be alpha female. Oldest two females say no. When my husband was out in the yard playing with one of the older females, the youngest attacked her. Then the other older female joined in to help save her buddy, and the two older ones turned on and attacked the youngest. It was vicious and bloody, not just a little spat. 
Around a week later, it happened again, I don't know what provoked it. So I decided to separate them. We tried getting them back together while on a leash for safety, they were all in attack mode so we didn't let them get too close. A few months later the youngest accidently got into the room with the two older dogs and attacked them again. I still keep them apart. One of these days I'm going to try muzzling them and putting them together to see what they do. 

The youngest female has more dominance issues, she marks as bad as male dogs do, she's also humped the male dogs. 

I don't know if it might have something to do with the breed mixes. The youngest female's mother is Anatolian Shepherd, her dad was an Akita/Chow mix. The oldest female is a mix of purebred Chow and GSD parents, the other is a Lab/who knows what mix. I've had purebred Akita's before and never had a problem with the female even though I heard that can be trouble. Years ago I had a purebred Dalmatian female that attacked my female Golden Retriever. 

In all my years of having multiple dogs in the house, I have never ever had a fight between males. 

So sorry, I have no wisdom about keeping females together because it's not working out well at all in my house.


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## rockymtsweetie82 (Jul 24, 2008)

That's what I'm worried about. Because A LOT of people, compared to the ones that have more than one female dog that get along, have females that DONT. And that's what I'm worried about. I'm hoping that starting with a female pup and having them "grow up" together, even though China's over a year old, will work. Plus I'm a SAHM and the kids will both be in school in the fall, so I will definitely have more time to work with the dogs. I'm hoping I can find the right training technique so they get along famously.


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## ChattyCathy (Nov 22, 2008)

Do you think that perhaps looking for a puppy with a personality that is more gentle than aggressive from the outset might help? You know one that goes along w/the pack of her brothers and sisters.


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## rockymtsweetie82 (Jul 24, 2008)

Oh definitely. That's why I chose Duckie. Jacks/Beagles are both kind dogs and aren't known for many aggression issues. I'm not saying they can't have them, but I've yet to find one that does. Also, GSDs are so even tempered and are loyal and obedient. So getting a GSD is definitely going to help. I just hope China likes her when she grows up and vise versa. lol


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## chowder (Sep 7, 2008)

domari said:


> Mine don't get along at all!! If anyone has wisdom on how to make peace between them, let me know! We've had several bad fights and I keep one of them separate from the other two. My males all get along perfect, the girls are horrid.
> 
> I don't know if it might have something to do with the breed mixes. The youngest female's mother is Anatolian Shepherd, her dad was an Akita/Chow mix. The oldest female is a mix of purebred Chow and GSD parents, the other is a Lab/who knows what mix. I've had purebred Akita's before and never had a problem with the female even though I heard that can be trouble. Years ago I had a purebred Dalmatian female that attacked my female Golden Retriever.
> 
> ...



My two girl chows were the same way. I brought a baby chow in and they were fine until the "baby" got to be about two years old. Then all hell broke loose! They would be perfectly fine next to each other then all of a sudden something would set the young one off and she would tear into the older one. It was always the younger one that started it. And they were terrible, bloody, death to the loser type fights. Not just little spats. They actually got worse as the dogs got older. 
I used to have an Akita breeder come to the vets where I worked who couldn't let any of her females near each other or they would fight. Now, I know it is not all chows because my chow breeder has a lot of females together without a problem and it can't be all akitas, it just has to be certain personalities. I always just thought my dog had a screw loose somewhere. She was real sweet with people, just very dog aggressive but you couldn't spot it as a puppy in her and she was raised with 3 other dogs. Maybe a really good trainer could help with cases like this.


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## domari (Jun 17, 2008)

chowder said:


> My two girl chows were the same way. I brought a baby chow in and they were fine until the "baby" got to be about two years old. Then all hell broke loose! They would be perfectly fine next to each other then all of a sudden something would set the young one off and she would tear into the older one. It was always the younger one that started it. And they were terrible, bloody, death to the loser type fights. Not just little spats. They actually got worse as the dogs got older.
> I used to have an Akita breeder come to the vets where I worked who couldn't let any of her females near each other or they would fight. Now, I know it is not all chows because my chow breeder has a lot of females together without a problem and it can't be all akitas, it just has to be certain personalities. I always just thought my dog had a screw loose somewhere. She was real sweet with people, just very dog aggressive but you couldn't spot it as a puppy in her and she was raised with 3 other dogs. Maybe a really good trainer could help with cases like this.


I've been trying to find a good trainer, there are none around here. My vet said these "female" issues usually start when the dogs are fully mature, around age two. She thinks it's just their way of wanting to be alpha and that my husband and I need to make sure all the dogs know WE are the pack leaders. Sounds like what Cesar Milan says!

As far as breed traits, other than her problem with the other girls, she shows NONE of the bad breed traits Anatolian/Chow/Akita's are known for. I know for sure her breed mix, I saw both parents. She's sweet and wonderful with everyone and everything else. She's a therapy dog and goes to work with my husband. She's great with our cats and little baby kittens, loves people, little kids, everyone except the other two female dogs at our house!

I really thought the fact they're all spayed would have prevented problems, I never expected this.


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## rockymtsweetie82 (Jul 24, 2008)

Hopefully you can find a way they can all co-exist quite easily. I'm sure it's stressful for them as it is for you. I can only imagine how stressed I would be if my pups were always fighting...And I get stressed when they play too rough! LOL


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## chowder (Sep 7, 2008)

It is incredibly stressful when you live with dogs that fight. If the two of them were in the kitchen I would panic if a piece of food dropped because there would be a huge fight over it. Or if the meter reader came and they were both in the back yard together, watch out! Just seeing him approach the fence would set the younger dog against the older dog. And someone always ended up bleeding. As much as I loved my baby girl, after she died the stress level in this house plummeted. In fact, now that we have two dogs that love each other with Rocky and Chelsy my husband REFUSES to let me bring in a third dog for Rocky to play with. He never wants to take a chance on having dog fights again. Rocky has never even growled in his life at anyone or anything and he wants to keep it that way. We can leave the house and know when we come home that Chelsy will be in one piece!


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## rockymtsweetie82 (Jul 24, 2008)

I told my Mom last night I was planning on getting a female and I got told how you can't keep two females in one house hold. That since China is already DA than things will get worse with another female. That I must spay China and it will help. There are so many conflicting stories though and I do believe that if I work hard than things will be ok.


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## chowder (Sep 7, 2008)

Have you thought about getting another boy puppy? I don't have a lot of experience wiht that, but I have been told that two boys in the house rarely fight when they are both neutered. In fact, I heard from a guy who had 4 boy chows that all got along just fine in one household. All my boy chows have been angels. Since China has one boy puppy already, she might do fine with another boy puppy. Maybe someone on the board has an idea about that. I was considering bringing in another boy puppy for Rocky to play with, not another girl.


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## rockymtsweetie82 (Jul 24, 2008)

In my experience and alot of other's experience, yes males and females get along much better than females/females. And even male/male get along better than females/females. I don't know. I've just always had my heart set on a female German Sheperd. I grew up with one named Princess (rexbaby's old dog). She passed when I was still young and I just have always wanted another. The male GSD's are beautiful as well but they look so much lankier. I'm going to look into both though because I definitely want a GSD. Maybe I'll get lucky and find a pudgy short male =)


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## EnglishBullTerriers (Sep 10, 2008)

rannmiller said:


> This conversation came up on another thread so I thought I'd start a proper thread for it here so everyone else can jump in too if they aren't keeping up on the other.
> 
> What are the pros and cons of spaying and neutering?
> 
> ...


Well, It is my experience that spay/neutering a dog doesn't do anything to the temperment of the dog. The dog will act the way it acts because of things like training level, methods and age. Owen is over a year old now and I still haven't had him neutered. The only thing that he does is protects what is his. (i.e. me, his yard, his house, his friends, his food, but not from me!) He is only doing what is natural to him and his breed. The English Bull Terrier was first bred as a protector of the cow herds, and also to protect their master. NOT to fight so much as to warn and scare off if nessicary. The only times that he becomes more then just protective, is when I have let my guard down and I am not looking out for us. Then he takes the lead and I have to kind of snap myself back to leader mode and he settles back to protecort mode. 
A good example of this was over Chrostmas, Titus, Owen and myself were playing in my moms back yard and Titus started to play-fight with everyone he could get to. Owen started going after him, grabbed him by the throte and wasn't going to let go. I turned around and grabbed Owen the same way he had grabbed Titus, then with the other hand, I grabbed Titus and both dogs went to the ground and I stood there like that until they both relaxed under my hands. Not once did I apply more then just a little pressure to them and I did not push them to the ground. I mearly did the same movements that Owen did to get controle of Titus, but with less pressure and they both just fell. Owen was the first to be released because he relaxed first and then he had to stay sitting beside me until Titus was finished with his temper-tantrum. Once he relaxed, we all started playing together again. 
Never again did either one of them try to do all of that. Titus would get a little dominant and Owen and I would stand up and I would take one step forward and Titus would calm right back down. He figured out where he stood in my pack and all was well.
With all that said, NEITHER MALE has been neutered. They get along just fine. Neither my sister, my brother-in-law or myself have intentions on breeding, we just haven't gotten to doing it yet. 
Co-existance is possible with the proper training, skills and personality of all involved.
Oh, and I am all about not over-populating and spay/neutering dogs and especialy CATS!!! Too many of all!!


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## Doc (Jan 17, 2009)

For large males I would wait until they are 18 months to a year - as a general rule. The longer you can wait, the better is my opinion.

For females I would try to wait until they have had at least two heat cycles. Remember there could be some issues in the years tocome because of spaying.

Vets like to do them young - I think they base that decision on $$$$. I would wait as long as I could for the overall health of the dog.


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## EnglishBullTerriers (Sep 10, 2008)

Doc said:


> For large males I would wait until they are 18 months to a year - as a general rule. The longer you can wait, the better is my opinion.
> 
> For females I would try to wait until they have had at least two heat cycles. Remember there could be some issues in the years tocome because of spaying.
> 
> Vets like to do them young - I think they base that decision on $$$$. I would wait as long as I could for the overall health of the dog.


Do you realize that there are only 12 months in a year, so 18 months to a year is a little bass-ackwards!?!!! :wink:


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## whiteleo (Sep 7, 2008)

English Bull Terriers, I just have to point out to you some important facts on the Bull Terrier, they were not protectors of cow herds, they were bull baiting dogs back in the days, they went after the bulls and held them by the soft tissue of their noses, it was a horrible sport, when that became old news they then started fighting the bull terrier against dogs, don't take any agression for granted, I have a rescue who was not socilized as a puppy or a teenager, and he is dog agressive,we are in private lessons working on his issues, but it's a slow process, and don't tell me that genetics way back don't work down, he went after a cross tied horse and bite him on the nose.


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## EnglishBullTerriers (Sep 10, 2008)

whiteleo said:


> English Bull Terriers, I just have to point out to you some important facts on the Bull Terrier, they were not protectors of cow herds, they were bull baiting dogs back in the days, they went after the bulls and held them by the soft tissue of their noses, it was a horrible sport, when that became old news they then started fighting the bull terrier against dogs, don't take any agression for granted, I have a rescue who was not socilized as a puppy or a teenager, and he is dog agressive,we are in private lessons working on his issues, but it's a slow process, and don't tell me that genetics way back don't work down, he went after a cross tied horse and bite him on the nose.


I looked it up and you are right about the baiting, but Bull Terriers just like their bully and their terrier background were protectors of their people and property. I still don't think that genetics are to blame. As you said, he wasn't socialized and it doesn't stop at a Bull Terrier that being unsocialized will make them dog, or even people agressive. ANY breed can turn into a dog and/or human agressive animal when not properly socialized. This also doesn't limit itself to just being socialized with the dogs in your family. (Not speaking to just WhiteLeo, but any family.) Any breed of dog can turn agressive with strange people/dogs if not properly trained!! 
This is a sore subject for anyone to really say one way or another wether spaying/neutering is good or bad or even when to do it! Plus discussing genetics of a breed is not an easy subject to debate because everyone has their own view point. It is like trying to bring up wether RAW is a better choice then kibble. NO ONE will agree!! And no one is right or wrong for having their own view on what they believe. I don't care what anyone says, we all have the right to believe what we want. 
Sorry I brought anything up!


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