# NILIF help needed *long*



## FurMom1089

Rilee is pissing me off. Lets just put it that way... Lately is is finding new and creative ways to get under my skin and pee... so to speak...

His newest attempts at whatever it is hes trying to do are not limited to, but include:
*Jumping ON TOP of the counter* 
as of this past weekend, left him alone at my dads while we went fishing, big deal I do it all the time. we came back to find he had been all over the counters and stove, he chewed the hell out of 12 pieces of tupperware, then jumped the 4ft gate into the living room, which he ransacked, ate all the cats kibble, plus ate the container about 6 cups of kibble in that, I think he also ate about a half cup diamond dog kibble :x

Later I was cleaning up after him and told him to go lay down, and he does it in front of me!!!! BAM right up there in one jump! I get him off and spank him and he tried to do it again, so I scream at him until he curled up in a ball on the floor shaking, afraid to move... Probably not what I should have done, but seriously!! 

*Trying to find me when I'm gone*
He will sniff out anywheres I have walked to the point that I can't even take him for walks! I walked down to the mailbox one day, and for a few days until it rained I was told he would go stand in the middle of the road like a friggin idiot

*Barking*
This is a new behavior for him, usually he will chill in his crate all day, now hes getting into panic attacks of screaming, even if we are right there

Every day I dread coming home to find his report of what hes done that day... He is so clingy that its completely turning me off of him, I've tried training him. He is so frustrating to work with, he acts like a moron during the sessions. I don't even know if he learned anything until I ask him a couple hrs later and he does what I ask... I have to train him to things most dogs to naturally, like follow a finger... he more than a year old, and cant follow a finger... I point and tell him to go there, what does he do? He takes off in any direction but the one I tell him. I make it a big part to always praise him when he comes to me when I tell him to, but he will still run circles around me when I tell him to come if he thinks hes in trouble

I have sat down with him and worked on his basics of sit, stay, paw, down dozens of times, and many times he will just look at me all sad like *why? why do you make me do things?* I don't believe he is stupid... I just think he acts stupid...

Meal times are no longer him getting a bowl of meat on the porch because now he will not go to the bathroom in the morning. He will stand there for a couple hrs if I let him *I put him in the crate for a while and then try again later, then feed him* But now when he eats I have cut it all up small and he has to work for every single bit, if he refuses to sit or whatever I go inside and try again later, because I'll get frustrated and he will shut down...

He wasnt always like this, and I been watching all of this build up to this... I don't let him hover and lay on me any more, I don't let him lick me or lean on me when he tried to sit on my foot, he only gets affection from the other 2 people I live with because I feel like I'm rewarding him for being stuck up my ass. He flat out refuses to meet new people on his own, I have to force him over time to accept other people to approach him, and every time he meets new people, he gets fed by them and I ignore him...

Now, don't get me wrong, I don't shun him all the time, when hes off being independent and he comes to check in, I'll reward him with a pet or whatever and send him off again, and hes fine with that, but recently hes stopped playing fetch. He used to be obsessed with the ball... now I AM the ball... I'll get him all excited with it, and throw it, he'll watch it go, then sit down and stare at me with this creepy adoring expression... hes acting like a bad boyfriend

Obviously what I'm doing is wrong if hes getting worse, but I just don't know what to do anymore... He used to have other dogs that he would be like this with, but I was forced to give up my other dogs when I moved here, and I think that may be what the problem is. The other dogs we live with here are good dogs, not my kind of dog, but good for their owners. But hes not allowed to play with them dog style, u know, wresting, normal dog stuff, their yellow lab bitch is loud at playing so they always stop them, Rilee is used to playing like this, I never stop him from playing, I think hes frustrated by this in particular, if I try to play with him he just wants to chew on me, so I stop and walk away. The other dog is a black lab bitch, sorta a wall flower type, i wouldnt call her timid, but kinda quiet. They play great too, but they get stopped as well with the excuse "she doesn't like that! shes scared!" and then is rescued by being ordered to lay down and stay down.. sounds like punishment for having fun to me... Rilee gets in trouble too... Another reason for him to get frustrated, its almost always their dogs that initiate play, they wag a toy in his face till he finally gives in...

I know he gets yelled at a lot because hes frustrated, which obviously doesnt help, but its hard because the people I live with call the shots, and with me pay the way it is I simpl cannot move out or save anything. I make like 100 bucks a week... But I can't walk him like id like because I'm afraid he will go running down the road after me while im at work, they won't crate him while im gone like I tell them to because they don't like feeling like a kennel... I know for some things there are no solutions until I am able to move, but is there anything more I could do for him to change my behavior so he doesnt feel so desperate and I don't incourage his bad behavior??


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## magicre

what is his daily exercise consist of


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## xchairity_casex

Im going to put this as bluntly,yet as kindly as possable.

What your doing, its not good.

lets us begin with the counter surfing. firstly, if he is left alone to do as he pleases, how can you be angry at him when he does it? you NEED to invest ina crate for when your gone no ifs,ands or butts about it if you want this behavior to stop,he needs a crate or to be closed off in another dog proof room (with a door-not a gate)
yelling,screaming and spanking him was UNCALLED FOR and didnt need to happen especielly since youve done nothing but encouraged him to get on the counters by giving him to opportunity by leaving him to his own devices. crate,bedroom,bathroom when you leave no more hitting,yelling or screaming.


your obviously giving up on the walks to easily becuase you dont want to do them to begin with. if you want to walk him WALK HIM! to stand there getting angry at him for sniffing,hes BORED hes enjoying himself by sniffing thats like someone being angry and annoyed at you becuase you enjoy watching your fav tv show.
if he stops to sniff call him happily to come along 'cmon guy lets go for a walk! youll like this come one! good boy!"


WHY is he "chilling in his crate all day"????? no wonder he hates it! how would YOU like to be locked up ALL day unable to move,unable togo to the bathroom when you needed to go,unable to do anything but stare at the wall? seriously put yourself in his shoes and think about how that would affect you over the coarse of even a week. he NEEDS EXCERSICE he needs mental stimulation from you, THATS WHAT OWNING A DOG IS ABOUT. if you dont feel you can do those simple things EVERY DAY DONT OWN A DOG.

who cares if he isnt like most otehr dogs? why does this matter? who cares if he doesnt follow where you point? what does that matter? dont try expecting him to be like any other dog hes NOT anyother dog he is himself,he has his own likes and dislikes his own needs. your setting him up for faliure by expecting him to do what other dogs do in the same amount of time.
hes not acting stupid. he is ignoering you,he doesnt WANT to do what you ask becuase it sound like your going of the deep end and becomeing frustrated at him for nothing. your angry that he "Acts stupid" so hes fearful,he is ignoreing you becuase your angry at him he doesnt want to infilict your wrath upon him and get hit or screamed at. and i cannot say as i blame him.


your denying him food and being angry is causeing him to shut down. hes shutting down becuase again he is afraid to take food from you.


your being WAY to hard on him for no real reason, he is who he is he CANT help that your going to have to learn to accept that and change yourself or find him a new home otherwise he is going to flat out ignore you 100 percent of the time.

firstly you need to STOP GETTING ANGRY if you feel angry just stop and walk away from him, or better yet praise him and give him a hug and rember WHY you love him and WHY you want him in the first place.
go do somthing youll BOTH enjoy and try to do it every day as often as possable know a beach he can go to sniff or run around take him there and just play with him and pet him know a dog park he enjoys? take him and have a good time, when you go for walks ignore him and just think about how nice of a day it is outside and feel happy about being able to take a nice walk with your dog.
just take a break on obedience for a few weeks and jsut take some time to have fun with him and to see how awsome and loving he is.

hes clingy becuase he is looking for praise from you, he adores you so much even though you smack him and yell at him and get angry with him that hes willing to lean into you to be loved by you.
keep doing what your doing and soon he wont do that,maybe even be pushed into biteing or growling at you for being too harsh dogs can and do only take so much.

too many people are hung up on the "domination" of there dogs its hurting there dogs, and dont think im a pure posative trainer either , i understand NILF and the importance of being a pack leader to my dog but im fair,never harsh,never angry and never never frustrated at him for his actions , if i am i walk away i step back i start from scratch,we play a fun game instead we go for a walk instead to burn off steam or if his walking manners are annoying me for no reason i completey ignore him keep my arm limp and just walk if he walks ahead of me or pulsl a little i ignore it and walk at my own pace.

im not trying to be rude and im not trying to call you a bad person,im jsut trying to let you understand whats going on in HIS head in HIS brain its so easy for us to get caught up in how WE feel we totally forget to think about how THEY feel and thats no good at all.
just take these next few weeks and dont worry about obeience hes not showing ANY signs of being a dominant or bad dog seriously he doesnt sound domeneering AT ALL he sound confused,bored, and anxious.
he is tryingt o balance between his own needs and not setting you off

imagine your soooo hungry,but the way you eat makes your room mate angry,well you cant stand it anymore,everytime your rrom mate leaves you eat, you go nuts and eat,but when they come back and catch you eating and yelling at you, your afraid and embarressed you didnt WANT to make them mad but you were jsut sooo hungry you couldnt help yourself

its the same scenario.

i cant pretty much gaurantee you your dog is NOT being domeneering
your dog is NOT going to get worse by you loving up on him
your dog is NOT a "bad" dog who needs more discipline or structure or rules
he needs more love and fun with YOU


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## lab mom

I think you needed to vent and I hope it helped. Sounds like you have a loving pet that adores you. Like a little kid being naughty for attention. I think that you both are struggling with your new living arrangement and you both need time to adjust/work things out and get a routine down. And, yes, the economy sucks and stresses us out. Most dogs can not be left alone, and unsupervised without being put in a crate/kennel before they are at least 2 years old. My dogs like their kennel/crate as it is like their bedroom or their own personal space. They do need to have exercise and have fun! They make me get my exercise! They do not always learn as fast as other dogs. They take a lot of love, time, patience and work. You are lucky to have a dog that loves you, many dogs have the attitude that we are there to take care of them and do not show their love. Life sucks a lot of the time, but family, friends and our pets help us enjoy life!


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## FurMom1089

magicre said:


> what is his daily exercise consist of


Because I can not walk him, he gets a few hours of running with the other dogs every day, they go swimming, and I take him to the barn almost every day where he will just run around and do his thing


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## FurMom1089

xchairity_casex said:


> Im going to put this as bluntly,yet as kindly as possable.
> 
> What your doing, its not good.
> *Thats why I'm asking for help*
> lets us begin with the counter surfing. firstly, if he is left alone to do as he pleases, how can you be angry at him when he does it? you NEED to invest ina crate for when your gone no ifs,ands or butts about it if you want this behavior to stop,he needs a crate or to be closed off in another dog proof room (with a door-not a gate)
> yelling,screaming and spanking him was UNCALLED FOR and didnt need to happen especielly since youve done nothing but encouraged him to get on the counters by giving him to opportunity by leaving him to his own devices. crate,bedroom,bathroom when you leave no more hitting,yelling or screaming.
> *Firstly, he is almosst never left along where he lives, and when he is, he IS crated. Because he will jump off the 7ft wall after jumping the wall of the covered deck, so all together is about a 10ft drop, obviously so not ok. So he is crated while the other dogs are chilling. He is not SURFING He is all 4 feet one jump ON the counter! This is the first time he has EVER done this... EVER..... And when he does it in front of me? u bet your ass hes going to have no doubt in his mind that if he wants to live the thought better not enter his head again.*
> 
> your obviously giving up on the walks to easily becuase you dont want to do them to begin with. if you want to walk him WALK HIM! to stand there getting angry at him for sniffing,
> *Hes great on the leash... who said I'm angry with him for using his nose? I'm angry that he is trying to find me and will hunt for hours following my scent till he finally gives up, if I walk on the damn road, hes going to take off after my scent down the road... sorry, I'm not going to loose him from his dedication to me, thats not fair to him... And seriously? Dont say its not becusae I don't want to walk him, you don't know me, I love my exercise, and Rilee went everywhere with me before this, I can't even walk to the mailbox anymore! as I said, he will go bast his boundry and stand in the middle of a main road... He only does it when I am not here, so my power is out of that one..*
> 
> WHY is he "chilling in his crate all day"?????
> *Seriously? If he can't be watched then yes, for the couple hrs I am unavailable to him, he will survive. Crate training startes with more lock time than not, they learn its chill time, not punishment. Its worked for hundreds of dogs out there, it will work for him. Again, he is rarely if ever left alone, I go to the barn EVERY SINGLE DAY I only work 2-3 days a week, so depending on when exactly I work, he going to the barn with me most every day, so he sees that crate only 1-2 times a week, I live with the most dog involving people I know, if they are outside, so are they, and when theres a large yard to be mowed, gardening, landscaping, cars to work on, the list is endless, the dogs are out there being dogs, fetch is worked in several times a day. But because he suddenly wont play fetch anymore he watches them have fun.*
> 
> who cares if he isnt like most otehr dogs? why does this matter? who cares if he doesnt follow where you point? what does that matter? dont try expecting him to be like any other dog hes NOT anyother dog he is himself,he has his own likes and dislikes his own needs. your setting him up for faliure by expecting him to do what other dogs do in the same amount of time.
> hes not acting stupid. he is ignoering you,he doesnt WANT to do what you ask becuase it sound like your going of the deep end and becomeing frustrated at him for nothing. your angry that he "Acts stupid" so hes fearful,he is ignoreing you becuase your angry at him he doesnt want to infilict your wrath upon him and get hit or screamed at. and i cannot say as i blame him.
> Where exactly did I state or even imply that I'm a warden? I would never call him stupid, and if he acts confused, I SHOW HIM what it is I'm asking, he honestly doesnt know what it is I'm asking, hes too busy looking at my face to follow a finger. I also don't recall saying I wanted a cookie cutter dog, and what makes you think he is petrified of me and everything else? Yeah, hes always been afraid of meeting new people, I got him at 4 months after living in a hell hole of dozens of other dogs.. u know what, you don't need to know where he came from, its none of your business.
> 
> your denying him food and being angry is causeing him to shut down. hes shutting down becuase again he is afraid to take food from you.
> *Nope, hes eating just fine, hes earning every bite, and hes now scared to take food from me, if he doesnt sit when I ask him, taking the food away is a consequence, later we try again, its no different than, gee what is that im doing? oh yeah, training. Just instead of adding extra junk to his system and making him fat, hes learning that if he does what I ask, there will be something super yummy for him after, I hardly see that as cruel...*
> 
> your being WAY to hard on him for no real reason, he is who he is he CANT help that your going to have to learn to accept that and change yourself or find him a new home otherwise he is going to flat out ignore you 100 percent of the time.
> *ignore me? this dog worships me and no one else, he has leved with several other people before, weve worked with having other people feed him which has been good for him and all, but he could never go to another home and simply adjust, it would murder his spirit, even if I hated him, which I don't. I'm "stuck" with him. and I'm ok with that, pet ownership is for life no matter what, you find ways to keep making it possible, but you don't just give up and throw in the towel when you get frustrated... why does everyone suggest ruining the dogs life with rehoming when ever there is a training problem? how fair is that? You can't rehome your kids when they piss you off or dissapoint you, so why your pets?*
> firstly you need to STOP GETTING ANGRY *I'm pretty sure I DID state I walk away a lot, but u probably missed that as you picked out what you wanted to see*
> go do somthing youll BOTH enjoy and try to do it every day as often as possable know a beach he can go to sniff or run around take him there and just play with him and pet him know a dog park he enjoys?
> just take a break on obedience for a few weeks
> *I will not take him to a dog park, there are far too many sick or wormy dogs that go there for me to risk his good health. He lives with 2 dogs that he gets to run with every day *no wrestling, but we'll find a way around that some day* When we go to the farm, there are 2 other dogs he gets to play with, and on weekends he goes to my dads where there are always atleast 2 dogs, but sometimes I dog sit and theres 2-4 others. did I fail to mention he has fabulous dog skills? probably..*
> hes clingy becuase he is looking for praise from you, he adores you so much even though you smack him and yell at him and get angry with him that hes willing to lean into you to be loved by you.
> keep doing what your doing and soon he wont do that,maybe even be pushed into biteing or growling at you for being too harsh dogs can and do only take so much.
> *wow, how did you know I wallk around with a stick and beat him, and when most people say they yell at their dog, its a "hey" or "no" and thats the end of it, I don't think hes doing to have a bloody breakdown because of it, as usually when u scold him, he comes running to you and lays at your feet, ok, he gets pet for soming and putting himself down, oh yeah, hes gunna bite me..*
> too many people are hung up on the "domination" of there dogs its hurting there dogs, and dont think im a pure posative trainer either , i understand NILF and the importance of being a pack leader to my dog
> *I don't tollerate any dog taking advantage of me, they WILL learn to walk by my side before they earn more freedom, once they get to the point of where all I have to do is clear my throat and they slow to my side, they can walk in front so long as they are not pulling, you wanna know how I know this works? All the dogs I have trained to do this no longer WANT to snif while on a walk, they are in a working walk mode and even when given the opportunaty to sniff and potty, most take a sniff, and sit, awaiting further instruction.. oh yeah, they are miserable!*
> im not trying to be rude and im not trying to call you a bad person, *actually, I think you are*
> 
> *who said I yell at him for eating? wow... Chewing on plastic is not, and will never be ok! He has 101 chews and toys to pick from, I had 2 new bones on the counter for my dads dogs after Ry left, he never touched em. He eats just fine, hes a slow careful chewer, whats to be angry with about that, seriously if you hink that asking my dog to sit before he eats is wrong. well I have no more to say about that...*
> its the same scenario.
> 
> i cant pretty much gaurantee you your dog is NOT being domeneering *really? wow good thing you told me!*
> your dog is NOT going to get worse by you loving up on him *he is when hes being wrong*
> your dog is NOT a "bad" dog who needs more discipline or structure or rules on, *so before you tell me to lay off the rules, and now theres not enough? good call*
> he needs more love and fun with YOU


So yeah... You didn't answer my question at all, I'm sorry you wasted your typing on me. I asked for more techniques. you gave me none... walking away now...


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## FurMom1089

lab mom said:


> I think you needed to vent and I hope it helped. Sounds like you have a loving pet that adores you. Like a little kid being naughty for attention. I think that you both are struggling with your new living arrangement and you both need time to adjust/work things out and get a routine down. And, yes, the economy sucks and stresses us out. Most dogs can not be left alone, and unsupervised without being put in a crate/kennel before they are at least 2 years old. My dogs like their kennel/crate as it is like their bedroom or their own personal space. They do need to have exercise and have fun! They make me get my exercise! They do not always learn as fast as other dogs. They take a lot of love, time, patience and work. You are lucky to have a dog that loves you, many dogs have the attitude that we are there to take care of them and do not show their love. Life sucks a lot of the time, but family, friends and our pets help us enjoy life!


Thats just it, up until recently, we were able to leave him un attended for how ever long, hes potty trained, he never used to touch anything that wasnt given to him, just these last 2 weeks or so hes been regressing, jumping baby gates and what not to find me. he is obcessed with me thats the only way to put it, I've tried re directing him onto other people so he could learn that other people offer love and fun too, and it works! only so long as I'm there, if I'm not there to save him, he acts like he can't stand on his own 4 feet, so as I've been told, he is a completely different dog when I'm not here...


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## xchairity_casex

> your dog is NOT a "bad" dog who needs more discipline or structure or rules on, so before you tell me to lay off the rules, and now theres not enough? good call


Excuse me, you read that wrong i said your dog is NOT a bad dog who needs more as in hes not bad,he doesnt need more.

im sorry you took my post so hard and feel the need to defend yourself. all i can say is, if your so confedent in what you are doing with him ,how come you came here for advice?

and yes i did help you i gave you plenty of ideas.

more excersice
more affection and praise
being around him more and praiseing him more
calming yourself down


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## 7766

I don't have anywhere near the training expertise some of the other forum members have, but I am working with a trainer currently. One of the techniques we use, is after a session the dogs we are working with go to their cages for at least an hour. I was told if we let them out an play with the other dogs after they will forget what they learned. This might be something to incorporate with your training. 

You made the statement about how you point to get him to go somewhere and he doesn't. Our last session we worked on teaching them to go to their beds. Normally I would point at the bed and say this to them. We learned to walk the dog over to the bed. Maybe instead of pointing if you walk them over he may understand it better.

From your post you do seem very stressed and hopefully venting here will help. I know my dogs never do what I say when I am angry and stressed.


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## magicre

FurMom1089 said:


> Thats just it, up until recently, we were able to leave him un attended for how ever long, hes potty trained, he never used to touch anything that wasnt given to him, just these last 2 weeks or so hes been regressing, jumping baby gates and what not to find me. he is obcessed with me thats the only way to put it, I've tried re directing him onto other people so he could learn that other people offer love and fun too, and it works! only so long as I'm there, if I'm not there to save him, he acts like he can't stand on his own 4 feet, so as I've been told, he is a completely different dog when I'm not here...


what changed two weeks ago?


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## bridget246

You want more techniques? First off dogs don't naturally follow fingers. Training touch will help your dog pay more attention to your hand. After that you could throw treats from the hand he is watching and point in the direction you wish him to go. While he goes to get the first treat throw another one in a different direction and point in that direction. Following your finger isn't a natural dog skill but it can be trained if that is something you really want.

To be truthful I doubt all the techniques in the world are going to help you if things stay the way they are. Your going to have to walk the dog and not yell at your dog all the time. This is going to cause more panic attacks, barking, jumping, stealing and possible biting. 

It might be best to look for a home for the dog if the living situation can't improve because you are honestly setting him up for failure.


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## FurMom1089

What changed was the foster puppy left :/ I know he misses him, I do too, but he has a great new home now with someone who loves him very much. I feel hes missing out on the HARD playing he used to do, He also used to go for 5 mile walks twice a week *weather was changing a lot and the heat was stressing him out, hes good now with it, but now theres problems* BUT he also almost never went to the barn with me, now he goes all the time, he gets his sniff on, gets to run with their corgies. So while his forms of exercise have changed, his life is still very exciting for a dog, car rides every day, romps in the back fields, I actually believe his stimulation is better now! When I had Koda, I couldn't take them to the barn, Koda would get into things becuase well, he was a pup! I couldn't blame him for those things, so I would put him in the yard, or tie him out, but he'd scream and holler the whole time, so to save everyone some stress, they stayed home to their normal routine, Rilee behaved perfectly. 

So maybe hes lost some structure in regards to a predictable routine, but no rules have changed for him. Hes still learning his tricks at about one a day, but hes so focused on my face and just staring lovingly at me, that he has a hard time listening it seems. Soon, I'll get a video of his chow time so you can get a better idea of him, maybe I'm missing something, but his ears are fully forward, mouth open, eyes sparkling, tail wagging... looks happy to me.

So it seems that him spending more time with me is the newest addition to his routine, I don't want to leave him behind all the time, I like having him around, hes great around the horses to the point I can go for a ride and have him come with me in the field...

I'm looking for ideas of WHAT it is he should be working for, and what I can be more slack about

I had a convo with the people I live with and they say hes been better for them this past week *lil less* very calm and mellow, less searching, but I don't go into the yard anymore, so it could be either hes relaxing, or theres simply nothing for him to follow. They want me to run a pattern in the grass and see if he will follow the exact pattern. I want to see if I can teach him to follow a specific scent, its a good skill he likes to use, but I've never trained a dog to harness its nose, well when I was 12 I taught my dog to "find it" it was kinda non descript and turned into "put ur nose to the ground and follow the first scent you find!" I was 12 lol ...

I'm only posting the bad stuff because I don't need to post the good stuff, or I didnt think I had to, imo I always look at posts as half or less so than the whole picture, I assumed others did the same, I'm willing to answer questions about what else goes on, but as it is my first post was too long and I had to cut stuff out of it...


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## FurMom1089

again, who says I "yell" at him all the time?? He does not bite, and he does not "steal" as I stated, the latest was an isolated insident

And yes, following a finger is a proven dog behavior. There was a simple experiment done with dogs puppies and wolves, none of the wolves followed the finger, all of the dogs and puppies did *They had 2 over turned dishes, they pointed to one, when the animal went to the correct one they got the treat, the wolves went to the one not pointed to and stole the treat. This is just one experiment to name*


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## StdPooDad

One question and one suggestion:
Question: What does the below statement mean? I must me missing something, I don't see what walking him has to do with him running down the road after you.



FurMom1089;197461
[B said:


> But I can't walk him like id like because I'm afraid he will go running down the road after me while im at work, [/B]


Suggestion: Do you have a Home Depot store near you? I take my kids there a lot, they get a zillion treats from the people that work there, they *love* to see Seamus and Teaghan come in the store. Great way for your dog to meet other people.


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## magicre

Jumping ON TOP of the counter 
Trying to find me when I'm gone
Barking
getting worse
no more entertainment from another source. i.e. foster
he wants to chew on you so you walk away. no structured playing according to your rules.
gets yelled at a lot.
you can't walk him as you used to do, so not enough structured exercise.

this is what you said. 

so the suggestions you've been given are those which will require some structuring by you.

there is no other way.

longer walks...more ball throwing or something that doesn't require him chewing on you.

your dog is not a bad dog. he's bored. he's frustrated. he's a dog.

you as the human have to provide the training, the exercise and the behavioural modifications so he knows what is expected from him.

another dog cannot do that for him. only you can. 

believe me, i get that you're frustrated. things have not happened in a way you wanted them to and the dog is suffering and so are you.

until the situation changes...at least an hour walk when you get up and before you go to bed...

throwing a ball so he can retrieve.....tire that dog out and you'll have a better dog.


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## FurMom1089

StdPooDad said:


> One question and one suggestion:
> Question: What does the below statement mean? I must me missing something, I don't see what walking him has to do with him running down the road after you.
> 
> 
> 
> Suggestion: Do you have a Home Depot store near you? I take my kids there a lot, they get a zillion treats from the people that work there, they *love* to see Seamus and Teaghan come in the store. Great way for your dog to meet other people.


If I leave via the driveway, I leave a scent trail. When I leave without him he starts looking for me, in his looking he will follow where ever I went, so if I walked out the driveway and down the road, that is where he will go.

I work at tractor supply, he goes there all the time, when he gets better with people I'm going to see about having him come to work with me, he knows how to let him self out to potty, but he likes to follow people, he likes people, but is afraid to be faced by them, he knows the people I work with, and they treat him all the time, he has good days and bad days, I'm still taking notes on what makes some days better/worse.

How I want to walk him is the way we used to, go out in the early am for a jog around the "block" then he eats breakfast and heads out onto the deck. After I left for the barn I would see him till 6-8 id get home walk him feed him, then shortly after its bed time.

Only now that I bring him to the barn hes getting that stimulation, but I miss walking in general, it would be nice to be able to redirect his nose to something positive, I don't know how to train him off my scent so we can walk again, the only was right now, could be to drive some wheres, walk for an hr, drive home, feed him, then drive to the barn *I used to walk once upon a time* then drive some wheres else, walk for another hr, then drive home and feed him and then bed...

Going back to the tsc thing, I try to get people to walk by him and get him to follow them around and have them try to feed him treats as fast as he will take them until they can turn around and face him, not pet him! but just face him and treat him, its been slow, but I see the difference, I havent tried handing them a leash and having them just walk with him, but not force him at all so he doesnt get scared, for now off leash is working


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## FurMom1089

magicre said:


> Jumping ON TOP of the counter
> Trying to find me when I'm gone *I don't know how to stop this so ive done nothing about it*
> Barking*only when he is crated, about once or twice a week or so im told, we are slowly working with this*
> getting worse*it is not BAD yet, its still veeeeery mild compaired to other dogs ive worked with, im trying to stop it before it does get bad*
> no more entertainment from another source. i.e. foster*he lives with 2 other dogs, there is still the entertainment, the only diff is the foster was his son, he was very attached to him*
> he wants to chew on you so you walk away. no structured playing according to your rules.*I play with him all the time, its only occationally that he will take my arm and apply gentle pressure, its not allowed non the less, so yes, i make a noise and I stop playing, how is this wrong?*
> gets yelled at a lot.*Yes, getting scolded about 5 times a day is a lot, mostly its because he get playing rough with the girls, i dont yell at him for this, the other dogs owners do, I DO yell at him for standing up on the short wall overlooking the wall, its a safety concern*
> you can't walk him as you used to do, so not enough structured exercise.*this is true*
> 
> your dog is not a bad dog. he's bored. he's frustrated. he's a dog.
> *I know hes fristrated, I am too, hes limited because he is a potential danger to himself specifically to his searching, if we stopped that, many issues would go with it, because I could walk him again*
> 
> until the situation changes...at least an hour walk when you get up and before you go to bed...
> *That is what he used to get, but I, at this time cannot risk leaving a trail for him to follow, because I won't be there to stop him, he only does this when I am not there, and if I started walking him anyway, and he started to wander off, then it would end up what when im not there he WOULD be in his crate for the remainder of the time... I don't think thats fair*
> throwing a ball so he can retrieve.....tire that dog out and you'll have a better dog.
> *He won't play fetch anymore, he will get all excited when I try to play with him, but he won't chase it, and when he does he will pick it up run away then drop it and then come back, I've gone back to the baby basics with him and he will do well for that session, but if you just randomly try to play fetch with him, it turns into another session*


If anyone has a suggestion on to how to get him re directed from his nose, currently if they see him searching, he gets put in the crate until he relaxes, then hes ok, but im worried about the time they don't realize hes run off and gets smacked by a car


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## Sprocket

Is your name Savannah? 

You sound (and seem to act) EXACTLY like my SIL. The kicker is that her dog acts the same way yours does as it's not HIS fault.

My advice, work on Calming yourself down. Deep breaths, happy thoughts, calm collected tone of voice. Your dog doesn't want to work with an angry jerk.

The bottom line is, you don't understand your dog. If your dog is properly contained, he will not "run down the road after you". Start exercising him sufficiently, THEN work with him. You are setting him up for failure if you expect him to speak English and be trained with out exercising his body first.

I suggest you get professional training sessions so you can have a 3rd party point out what you are doing wrong.

My last bit of advice is, stop making excuses. The reason why your dog is this way is because of YOU. You created the mess, you fix it. No one here can help you until you realize that you are the problem. The first step to recovery is admitting YOU have a problem.


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## magicre

i know i'm not a trainer and know next to nothing about dogs, but when i take my dogs for a walk, i use a leash.


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## magicre

FurMom1089 said:


> If anyone has a suggestion on to how to get him re directed from his nose, currently if they see him searching, he gets put in the crate until he relaxes, then hes ok, but im worried about the time they don't realize hes run off and gets smacked by a car


what i stated above, that you answered, were the things that you stated in your first post.

i am really confused now.


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## Gally

I'm trying to understand your situation so bear with me here.

So you can't take him for walks because after you leave to go to work he will follow the trail you walked earlier and try to find you? To me this just sounds like a matter of proper containment. If your landlords don't want to keep your dog crated as you wish then it is up to them to make sure he does not get out the door. Maybe install baby gates or a latching screen door if they prefer to have the doors open? If there isn't a fence on the property then you need to find a better way to keep him contained. 

I'm not sure you can really stop a dog from using his primary sense. Hopefully overtime he will realize you are always going to come home. It sounds like the loss of his playmate has really shaken his confidence and maybe even started the beginning of some separation anxiety. You might want to read up on separation anxiety as there could be some methods used for that you might find helpful.  I'd also try to make his routine as consistent as you can, some dogs just really need a solid routine to make them feel at ease.


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## Celt

To me, it sounds like he's made the connection of when "someone" leaves they might not come back and "bad" things happen. It seems that while there are other dogs he can "hang out" with there's no one he can really play with. After all when he starts playing, he gets yelled at. I'm not sure about following a finger being natural. I've had pups who could/would do it and others that barely realized that fingers do more than give treats. My current pups watch for facial and vocal expressions first and only when encouraged focus on other things. Going out and about (visiting the barn) is a wonderful activity but it doesn't do a very good job as a "replacement" for a walk where he interacts with you and where you're focused on him. NILF has it's uses but personally I don't agree with "making" a dog work for every bite. Imo, that turns dinner time into training time which isn't exactly "relaxing" or enjoyable when one is hungry. 
I'm going to sign off now, before I write a babbling novel.


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## FurMom1089

I dont feel as if I'm able to explain myself properly... Hes not a bad dog, he has some issues but they dont envelope his life.. I didnt think I made it sound like that but I guess I must have. I'm not sure what to say because no one seems to understand what I'm saying or asking. Its being twisted into something I never thought it would... Rilee is NOT NEUROTIC and frankly neither am I, I stated several times that I walk away wit rewards when he does something undesireable, I don't beat him! and if its a training session I don't use no, I say 'ey to tell him he needs to stop and try again. The only times where he has thoroughly disappointed me was when he killed that chicken and jumping on the counter. I hardly see that as being a bad dog! Just a dog who made a couple bad choices...

Hes laying at my feet with the cat as I write this and can't help but feel bad for him that I've misled several people into thinking hes a monster with no rules or boundaries and is scared of everything and who is beat and yelled at and harassed...

so if you don't mind, I'm going to take my questions to google because I'm having a hard time being told im a bad dog parent when it all because I can't explain myself properly... idk maybe ill try the walk from the house and just hope my friends keep an eye on him, she said she would, but idk im not there when he does it, all i know is what im told that he does this...


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## bridget246

FurMom1089 said:


> I dont feel as if I'm able to explain myself properly... Hes not a bad dog, he has some issues but they dont envelope his life.. I didnt think I made it sound like that but I guess I must have. I'm not sure what to say because no one seems to understand what I'm saying or asking. Its being twisted into something I never thought it would... Rilee is NOT NEUROTIC and frankly neither am I, I stated several times that I walk away wit rewards when he does something undesireable, I don't beat him! and if its a training session I don't use no, I say 'ey to tell him he needs to stop and try again. The only times where he has thoroughly disappointed me was when he killed that chicken and jumping on the counter. I hardly see that as being a bad dog! Just a dog who made a couple bad choices...
> 
> Hes laying at my feet with the cat as I write this and can't help but feel bad for him that I've misled several people into thinking hes a monster with no rules or boundaries and is scared of everything and who is beat and yelled at and harassed...
> 
> so if you don't mind, I'm going to take my questions to google because I'm having a hard time being told im a bad dog parent when it all because I can't explain myself properly... idk maybe ill try the walk from the house and just hope my friends keep an eye on him, she said she would, but idk im not there when he does it, all i know is what im told that he does this...


I don't why your not getting this. Nobody said your dog was bad. In fact a few people pointed out that your dog wasn't a bad dog at all. What post were you reading? You were the one annoyed about the dog not following your finger pointing and we thought that was normal. We aren't trying to tell you that your a bad parent. We are trying to tell you that your making some big mistakes and they must be changed if you wish to see improvement. It isn't a misunderstanding. 

It is good your going to walk the dog. They need it even if they do exercise with the other dogs. 

Give a few days and come back and read your replies again. Maybe you will realize that we are actually trying to help you.


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## xellil

> I get him off and spank him and he tried to do it again, so I scream at him until he curled up in a ball on the floor shaking, afraid to move... Probably not what I should have done, but seriously!!


I dunno. This seems pretty clear to me. Screaming, spanking, scaring a dog so bad he is curled up, shaking, afraid to move.

I don't see a dog out of control here, I kinda see an owner a little out of control.

Good luck with google. Maybe they will understand better.


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## Caty M

> If I leave via the driveway, I leave a scent trail. When I leave without him he starts looking for me, in his looking he will follow where ever I went, so if I walked out the driveway and down the road, that is where he will go.


Do you let this dog wander? I am sure MOST dogs will given the chance! If you cannot watch the dog, or aren't home, the dog needs to be safely contained.. has nothing to do with his intelligence or misbehaving, he is doing what an animal naturally does! He will get hit by a car. Why is he allowed out on his own???


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## Dude and Bucks Mamma

Chairity gave you excellent advice and you were extremely rude about it. You are setting this dog up for failure and you don't seem to see that. If I am looking at the correct age of the dog in your signature, Rilee is only a little over a year old. Um, sweetheart, you are dealing with a teenager. Of course he is pushing his boundaries. That's what adolescents do. 

So he jumped on top of the counter while you were gone... The key words there were "YOU WERE GONE". He is a young dog. Why wasn't he properly contained in a crate? You clearly have one. Use it. That crate is not just there to keep things from being destroyed. It is there for Rilee's safety. When you are not there he can get into all sorts of things. Recently, liquid's dog, Evee, was alone in the house and got a hold of a cd. I left my boy alone in the backyard for under a minute to run in and grab something and he ate half a tennis ball. Dogs don't always stop to think about what they are getting themselves into. That's where crates come in handy. If a dog is in his crate he cannot get into something that could cause him harm.

What on earth possessed you to scream and yell at him until he was curled up in a ball on the floor and shaking??? You are supposed to PROTECT him. You are supposed to be the person he can look to for safety when he is frightened, NOT be the one who does the frightening. When he jumped up on the counter you should have said, "Wrong" or "No" or whatever word you use, grabbed him, put him on the ground, and walked him out of the room. When one of our dogs does something wrong we put them in a separate room for about ten minutes. Being forced to spend a few minutes away from us is their punishment. After the five or ten minutes is up they are let back out and we act as if nothing has happened. We don't remain angry at them. Being separated from us gave him time to settle down because when they do wrong they typically get themselves worked up. It gives him time to settle down and us time to settle down as well. That way, when he is let back out, both parties are calm and there are no grudges from the humans.

Trying to find you when you are gone: Again, WHY is he not in a crate when you are gone??? That WHOLE problem can be solved by crating him when you are gone.

He is clingy because he adores you. You need to really rethink this whole concept. You have a dog who absolutely adores you and it is making you mad??? Are you crazy? I own an 8 year old smooth collie and a 1 year old bluetick coonhound. My collie adores my husband but is still a mellow guy so he just chills on his bed and watches him and Buck is independent and doesn't cling to anyone. DO you realize how many of us would love to have a dog like Rilee? We are getting a third dog next spring of a breed that is KNOWN for bonding to one person and being as "clingy" as Rilee is. 

However, on another note, he runs around you in circles when he knows he is in trouble because he knows that you are going to smack and yell at him when you catch him. Why would he come to you if he knows that is going to happen?

So now, to top it all off, you are withholding attention and affection from him. He needs that affection to thrive. You throw the ball and he doesn't want to retrieve it. So what? He sits there and stares at you. So he is more interested in YOU then the BALL. Again, so what? He would rather turn his focus on you than an inanimate object and you have a problem with that?

"I know he gets yelled at a lot because he is frustrated." No, he gets yelled at a lot because you and others are yelling at him. he is not making you yell at him. He is getting yelled at a lot because YOU are frustrated. 

You need to sit down with the owners and explain tot hem that, just because your dog is crated, it does not mean they are running a kennel. Explain that, for his own safety, he NEEDS to be safely confined while you are not home. That's all there is to it. If you are gone and not there to watch him then he needs to be crated. 


"Im going to put this as bluntly,yet as kindly as possable.

What your doing, its not good.
*Thats why I'm asking for help*

Then don't ignore good advice when it is given to you simply because you do not like the answer. Maybe you don't want to hear it but you are blaming this on a young dog who needs direction.

lets us begin with the counter surfing. firstly, if he is left alone to do as he pleases, how can you be angry at him when he does it? you NEED to invest ina crate for when your gone no ifs,ands or butts about it if you want this behavior to stop,he needs a crate or to be closed off in another dog proof room (with a door-not a gate)
yelling,screaming and spanking him was UNCALLED FOR and didnt need to happen especielly since youve done nothing but encouraged him to get on the counters by giving him to opportunity by leaving him to his own devices. crate,bedroom,bathroom when you leave no more hitting,yelling or screaming.
*Firstly, he is almosst never left along where he lives, and when he is, he IS crated. Because he will jump off the 7ft wall after jumping the wall of the covered deck, so all together is about a 10ft drop, obviously so not ok. So he is crated while the other dogs are chilling. He is not SURFING He is all 4 feet one jump ON the counter! This is the first time he has EVER done this... EVER..... And when he does it in front of me? u bet your ass hes going to have no doubt in his mind that if he wants to live the thought better not enter his head again.*

You have mentioned multiple incidents where he has done wrong because he was not in a crate and you were not home. If he is never left uncrated while you are gone then how is he getting on the counters and destroying the kitchen when you are fishing with your dad and how is he trying to follow you to work if he is crated?

your obviously giving up on the walks to easily becuase you dont want to do them to begin with. if you want to walk him WALK HIM! to stand there getting angry at him for sniffing,
*Hes great on the leash... who said I'm angry with him for using his nose? I'm angry that he is trying to find me and will hunt for hours following my scent till he finally gives up, if I walk on the damn road, hes going to take off after my scent down the road... sorry, I'm not going to loose him from his dedication to me, thats not fair to him... And seriously? Dont say its not becusae I don't want to walk him, you don't know me, I love my exercise, and Rilee went everywhere with me before this, I can't even walk to the mailbox anymore! as I said, he will go bast his boundry and stand in the middle of a main road... He only does it when I am not here, so my power is out of that one..*

Again, this issue can be easily fixed by crating him when you are gone.

WHY is he "chilling in his crate all day"????? 
*Seriously? If he can't be watched then yes, for the couple hrs I am unavailable to him, he will survive. Crate training startes with more lock time than not, they learn its chill time, not punishment. Its worked for hundreds of dogs out there, it will work for him. Again, he is rarely if ever left alone, I go to the barn EVERY SINGLE DAY I only work 2-3 days a week, so depending on when exactly I work, he going to the barn with me most every day, so he sees that crate only 1-2 times a week, I live with the most dog involving people I know, if they are outside, so are they, and when theres a large yard to be mowed, gardening, landscaping, cars to work on, the list is endless, the dogs are out there being dogs, fetch is worked in several times a day. But because he suddenly wont play fetch anymore he watches them have fun.*

So now he IS crated? Do you crate him when you are gone or don't you? Getting defensive isn't going to solve the problem. Don't go from saying you don't crate him to he is in his crate all day.

who cares if he isnt like most otehr dogs? why does this matter? who cares if he doesnt follow where you point? what does that matter? dont try expecting him to be like any other dog hes NOT anyother dog he is himself,he has his own likes and dislikes his own needs. your setting him up for faliure by expecting him to do what other dogs do in the same amount of time.
hes not acting stupid. he is ignoering you,he doesnt WANT to do what you ask becuase it sound like your going of the deep end and becomeing frustrated at him for nothing. your angry that he "Acts stupid" so hes fearful,he is ignoreing you becuase your angry at him he doesnt want to infilict your wrath upon him and get hit or screamed at. and i cannot say as i blame him.
*Where exactly did I state or even imply that I'm a warden? I would never call him stupid, and if he acts confused, I SHOW HIM what it is I'm asking, he honestly doesnt know what it is I'm asking, hes too busy looking at my face to follow a finger. I also don't recall saying I wanted a cookie cutter dog, and what makes you think he is petrified of me and everything else? Yeah, hes always been afraid of meeting new people, I got him at 4 months after living in a hell hole of dozens of other dogs.. u know what, you don't need to know where he came from, its none of your business.*


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## xchairity_casex

though your dog may not act afraid in your opinion a dog who is trying to keep the peace WILL ignore the human/dog creating the conflict so when you say he is ignoreing you,its becuase you are creating conflict and he is attempting to ignore you to relax things.
human children will do this also in abusive homes or in a home where mom and dad fight alot they will ignore the conflict going on around them.


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## Dude and Bucks Mamma

But here's the thing: You DID say you wanted a cookie cutter dog. You assume that, because other dogs know how to follow a finger, he should too and you are angry that he doesn't understand what you are asking. When you scream and yell at him until you have reduced him to a shaking pile of fur on the floor... Yea, he is going to learn to fear you and/or ignore you.

your denying him food and being angry is causeing him to shut down. hes shutting down becuase again he is afraid to take food from you.
*Nope, hes eating just fine, hes earning every bite, and hes now scared to take food from me, if he doesnt sit when I ask him, taking the food away is a consequence, later we try again, its no different than, gee what is that im doing? oh yeah, training. Just instead of adding extra junk to his system and making him fat, hes learning that if he does what I ask, there will be something super yummy for him after, I hardly see that as cruel...*

Meal time shouldn't be stressful. You can make it fun for him and incorporate some training but it still shouldn't be stressful. You have made him scared to take food from you? Why would you do that? Training does not involve making a dog afraid to take food from you. A game you can play with him at mealtimes is one that I use to work on focus. I have a bunch of bite sized chunks of beef heart. Buck's whole meal. I hold a chunk of heart out to the side and, obviously, being a dog, his eyes will follow it. As soon as he looks AWAY from the food, I praise him and give him the chunk. Then I do it again. Then I do it on the other side. Buck has been playing this game long enough that now, when I hold the beef heart out he looks at me. This is accomplished by, once he understands the concept that looking away from the food will get him a reward, simply waiting until he looks directly at you. This has been FABULOUS for other areas of training as I can now get his eye contact with a simple word: "Look". In addition, there is no need to walk away from this game. If he "isn't cooperating" you simply wait him out. You just wait until his eyes glance away from the food, even if only for the merest of moments and then, when he understands, wait him out until he looks at you. Then later, once he is good at that, add in a word to use as a cue for eye contact for other areas of training. You can even incorporate "leave it" into the game. I can hold a juicy chunk of beef heart right next to Buck's nose and he will stare me straight in the eyes until I ok him to take the heart from my hand.

your being WAY to hard on him for no real reason, he is who he is he CANT help that your going to have to learn to accept that and change yourself or find him a new home otherwise he is going to flat out ignore you 100 percent of the time.
*ignore me? this dog worships me and no one else, he has leved with several other people before, weve worked with having other people feed him which has been good for him and all, but he could never go to another home and simply adjust, it would murder his spirit, even if I hated him, which I don't. I'm "stuck" with him. and I'm ok with that, pet ownership is for life no matter what, you find ways to keep making it possible, but you don't just give up and throw in the towel when you get frustrated... why does everyone suggest ruining the dogs life with rehoming when ever there is a training problem? how fair is that? You can't rehome your kids when they piss you off or dissapoint you, so why your pets?*

He may worship you NOW but he won't down the road if you keep treating him the way you do. Sorry. He isn't going to put up with this forever. It's sad that you feel that you are "stuck with him". Rehoming a dog does not "ruing their life" or "murder their spirit". That notion is silly. When I was a kid I had a yellow Labrador Retriever named Blondie. I used to sleep in her doghouse with her. I loved her to death. My mom loved her to death. She loved US to death. My dad treated her poorly. He yelled at her and didn't like her. My mom decided tha it would be in Blondie's best interest to be rehomed. We found a wonderful man named Trey who grew up with labs and, even though Blondie absolutely adored my family, she ended up being MUCH happier in her new home where she was a much better match. Between you and Rilee there is not JUST a training problem. There is a huge lack of respect and understanding between the two of you. You simply don't understand him and that is not good for either one of you. 

firstly you need to STOP GETTING ANGRY *I'm pretty sure I DID state I walk away a lot, but u probably missed that as you picked out what you wanted to see*

Yes, you did state that you walked away a lot but you also stated that you yell at him and reduced him to a shaking, curled up ball. I'm pretty sure that is not just me picking out what I want to see.

go do somthing youll BOTH enjoy and try to do it every day as often as possable know a beach he can go to sniff or run around take him there and just play with him and pet him know a dog park he enjoys? 
just take a break on obedience for a few weeks
*I will not take him to a dog park, there are far too many sick or wormy dogs that go there for me to risk his good health. He lives with 2 dogs that he gets to run with every day *no wrestling, but we'll find a way around that some day* When we go to the farm, there are 2 other dogs he gets to play with, and on weekends he goes to my dads where there are always atleast 2 dogs, but sometimes I dog sit and theres 2-4 others. did I fail to mention he has fabulous dog skills? probably..*

hes clingy becuase he is looking for praise from you, he adores you so much even though you smack him and yell at him and get angry with him that hes willing to lean into you to be loved by you.
keep doing what your doing and soon he wont do that,maybe even be pushed into biteing or growling at you for being too harsh dogs can and do only take so much.
*wow, how did you know I wallk around with a stick and beat him, and when most people say they yell at their dog, its a "hey" or "no" and thats the end of it, I don't think hes doing to have a bloody breakdown because of it, as usually when u scold him, he comes running to you and lays at your feet, ok, he gets pet for soming and putting himself down, oh yeah, hes gunna bite me..*

You don't have to walk around with a stick and beat him in order to cause him to not want to have anything to do with you. 

too many people are hung up on the "domination" of there dogs its hurting there dogs, and dont think im a pure posative trainer either , i understand NILF and the importance of being a pack leader to my dog 
*I don't tollerate any dog taking advantage of me, they WILL learn to walk by my side before they earn more freedom, once they get to the point of where all I have to do is clear my throat and they slow to my side, they can walk in front so long as they are not pulling, you wanna know how I know this works? All the dogs I have trained to do this no longer WANT to snif while on a walk, they are in a working walk mode and even when given the opportunaty to sniff and potty, most take a sniff, and sit, awaiting further instruction.. oh yeah, they are miserable*

So, what you are basically saying is that you have taken the fun out of walking. There is a time to work and there is a time to relax and let a dog be a dog. My pup is younger than yours and knows when I ask him for a working walk (when I want to get us some exercise and we aren't going to stop and sniff the roses) and when we are on a companionable walk (where he is allowed to sniff and pee to his heart's content). I have found that the best way to do this is to get through your working walk and get your exercise then to reward him with the freedom to sniff and, as I like to call it, "check his messages". There is a whole world out there filled with other dogs and animals and and they all leave scents that your dog should be allowed to smell and enjoy. A dog should not feel like he cannot be a dog. They see the world through their nose.

im not trying to be rude and im not trying to call you a bad person, *actually, I think you are 

who said I yell at him for eating? wow... Chewing on plastic is not, and will never be ok! He has 101 chews and toys to pick from, I had 2 new bones on the counter for my dads dogs after Ry left, he never touched em. He eats just fine, hes a slow careful chewer, whats to be angry with about that, seriously if you hink that asking my dog to sit before he eats is wrong. well I have no more to say about that...
its the same scenario.*

i cant pretty much gaurantee you your dog is NOT being domeneering really? *wow good thing you told me!*
your dog is NOT going to get worse by you loving up on him *he is when hes being wrong*But you don't love on him very much
your dog is NOT a "bad" dog who needs more discipline or structure or rules on, *so before you tell me to lay off the rules, and now theres not enough? good call*I am pretty sure you misread this.
he needs more love and fun with YOU"

All in all, I think you need to take a step back and completely reevaluate the way you are treating your dog. He is a teenager who needs to be re-taught the rules and physically punishing him is not going to get you anywhere. It doesn't matter where he came from. He just sounds like an unruly teenager who is testing his boundaries.

You have gotten some excellent advice here and I suggest you take it all into consideration.


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## magicre

man, i hope you listen to these people. they are really trying to help you.

if you continue to be defensive, your dog will go from being a good dog to a good dog gone bad...because you didn't listen.


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## FurMom1089

I actually just realized I made some important typos... That was supposed to read "NOT" not "NOW" scared to take food. I'm sorry but I screamed at him once like that, I smacked him once, shook my finger at him and told him he was a "bad dog" louder than I probably should have, and yes, he hit the dirt and stayed where he was because he knew how angry I was. and that was the end to it, I didn't walk by him every 5 mins and kick him!

HE IS NOT EVER CRATED ALL DAY! I said he sees his crate a couple times a week, that doesn't mean in any language that hours and hours were spent in there! Do I know how long? no I wasn't there. But I assure you it wasn't for any longer than an hr a pop, probably a couple times a day when he wasn't being supervised... He is not aloud to wander like a stray! but if they are playing fetch with the girls and get distracted for 5 mins, its posible for him to sneak away, not that he has ever gone any where, you know what? I'm going to read over my first post and re type it and see if that helps, I didn't even finish reading the rest of my replies.. I want to START OVER and clarify and fix my typos


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## magicre

FurMom1089 said:


> I actually just realized I made some important typos... That was supposed to read "NOT" not "NOW" scared to take food. I'm sorry but I screamed at him once like that, I smacked him once, shook my finger at him and told him he was a "bad dog" louder than I probably should have, and yes, he hit the dirt and stayed where he was because he knew how angry I was. and that was the end to it, I didn't walk by him every 5 mins and kick him!
> 
> HE IS NOT EVER CRATED ALL DAY! I said he sees his crate a couple times a week, that doesn't mean in any language that hours and hours were spent in there! Do I know how long? no I wasn't there. But I assure you it wasn't for any longer than an hr a pop, probably a couple times a day when he wasn't being supervised... He is not aloud to wander like a stray! but if they are playing fetch with the girls and get distracted for 5 mins, its posible for him to sneak away, not that he has ever gone any where, you know what? I'm going to read over my first post and re type it and see if that helps, I didn't even finish reading the rest of my replies.. I want to START OVER and clarify and fix my typos


why don't you take a deep breath, because really, we are here to help but we can only go by what you write.

start a new thread and see if you can convey what's going on ?


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## magicre

better yet, why not read dude and bucks mama's answer to you as she put a whole lot of thought into her post....filled with constructive ways to help you.

so did charity....maybe really read both posts....


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## xchairity_casex

Listen, for me its not about the typos becuase the only things i heard in ANY and all of your posts is
anger
frustration
the dog is stupid
yelling

i dont care if you had said you had put the dog in a time out for 5 minutes, i would have STILL given the SAME advice.
you need to calm down and relax thats it thats all there is too it.

it doesnt matter waht you re-typei will not change the advice i have given.
he needs to have some fun and so do you with him you both need to relax and have a good time and not stress out so much about him misbehaving becuase non of those behaviors warent punishment or disclipline. NONE of those behaviors need correcting,none of those behaviors are screaming
"im a dominant dog who needs to be put back in line"


the only thing any of those behaviors say are 
"im bored! i needs omthing fun to do! i love my owner and i need to have fun with them!"

your dog isnt going to turn into a billowing monster of laying off the obedince and discipline for a few weeks heck i even do it myself when im having a rough time of it so i dont accedentally take it out on Cesar
like the past week ive been in a crummy mood so training and obedince has basically been put to a stop becuase my anxiety was making him anxious which was making me frustrated.
you know how i knew he was reacting to me? while going for walks he was ignoreing my commands that he knows by heart and loves to do i would ask him to sit he would ignroe me not look at me i would get frustrated and ask why are you doing this?? it only took a second for it to hit so i said "im sorry lets jsut have a relaxing time of it" we went about our walk without my asking a thing of him and we both had a great time. and guess what? he hasnt turned into a monster yet without his normal obedience work.

and most people think im super strict and that that his daily life is super structured, i dont let him step out of line, he doesnt get away with crap from me, and he IS a domenering dog,he does have the potentiall to become a lil ass hole (and has on many occassions) but i still know the importance of having a good time and not correcting what doesnt need to be corrected


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## Sprocket

Regarding the exercise and stimulation he desperately needs....have you tried a flirt pole?

My pitbull isn't crazy about fetch (unless it involves water retrieving), but he adores his flirt pole. It's wonderful exercise and a great way to train. 

They are easy to make too.


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## NewYorkDogue

xchairity--- how did you becomes so wise at such a young age? 

Personally, I would trust your advice when it comes to (especially problematic) dogs...


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## xellil

NewYorkDogue said:


> xchairity--- how did you becomes so wise at such a young age?
> 
> Personally, I would trust your advice when it comes to (especially problematic) dogs...


And, she always takes the time to respond. Patiently


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## FurMom1089

*Jumping ON TOP of the counter* 
as of this past weekend, left him alone at my dads*Not where he lives, been doing this every weekend for months* while we went fishing, big deal I do it all the time. we came back to find he had been all over the counters and stove, he chewed the hell out of 12 pieces of tupperware, then jumped the 4ft gate into the living room, which he ransacked, ate all the cats kibble, plus ate the container about 6 cups of kibble in that, I think he also ate about a half cup diamond dog kibble :x *I did NOT scold him, it was done there was nothing I could do, actually I was laughing becuase I was astonished he would do such a thing*

Later I was cleaning up after him and told him to go lay down*nicely, he was under my feet and it was a simple request he knows*, and he does it in front of me!!!! BAM right up there in one jump! I get him off and spank him and he tried to do it again, so I scream at him until he curled up in a ball on the floor shaking, afraid to move... Probably not what I should have done, but seriously!! 
*I said NO placed him on the floor, smacked his butt and he tried to jump back up and said "NO! bad dog! Bad! what were you thinking! I also exaggerated with saying he was curled up, he was on his side, and yes he was trembling. I walked away, left the kitchen, shut the gate, and that was it till morning. I felt my point was made and its not like continuing to be angry would change anything. I did not keep pushing him away and being angry, what good would it do? and I wasn't even mad later, he wasn't tramatized by the eppisode, and was just as happy to see me greet him in the morning. We both let it go*

*Trying to find me when I'm gone*
He will sniff out anywheres I have walked to the point that I can't even take him for walks! I walked down to the mailbox one day, and for a few days until it rained I was told he would go stand in the middle of the road like a friggin idiot
*I was not home, this is what I was told, the people I live with told me I'm not allowed past the dogs boundaries any more because of what happened, they were afraid that if I took him on the walks he would get lost in my scent and wander away. So they got me scared for him *

*Barking*
This is a new behavior for him, usually he will chill in his crate all day, now hes getting into panic attacks of screaming, even if we are right there
*I witnessed this once, I had left early for work that day and got back late, something was going on shortly after I got home so he could not come out, I did a fly by greeting, I did not approach or speak to him while he was yapping, it was probably because he got shorted his hello. Every day that I can't take him with me, I reluctantly ask how he was, and I get his error report, different stuff most times, or variations of the same stuff, nothing punishable by death, and I'm told as of today hes actually getting better while I'm not home since I've been making less of a big deal when I leave and return. As of a week I have not heard about the barking, but I don't know if that means it has stopped, or if they are just not telling me*

Every day I dread coming home to find his report of what hes done that day... He is so clingy that its completely turning me off of him, I've tried training him. He is so frustrating to work with, he acts like a moron during the sessions. I don't even know if he learned anything until I ask him a couple hrs later and he does what I ask... I have to train him to things most dogs to naturally, like follow a finger... he more than a year old, and cant follow a finger... I point and tell him to go there, what does he do? He takes off in any direction but the one I tell him.* I make it a big part to always praise him when he comes to me when I tell him to*, but he will still run circles around me when I tell him to come if he *thinks* hes in trouble
*I never scold him when he comes to me when I ask, if he has done something wrong, I say so, I don't call him. and I said THINKS this is not brought on by anything but his head, if someone is coming into the drive, I call all the dogs to me, and for some reason once in a while he will excitedly play "can't catch me!!!!!" He does not do this often, its more of just something stupid he HAS done, I was venting...*

I have sat down with him and worked on his basics of sit, stay, paw, down dozens of times, and many times he will just look at me all sad like *why? why do you make me do things?* I don't believe he is stupid... I just think he acts stupid...
*This is basically correct, I taught him paw few weeks ago, the typical, show, treat, show, treat, let him try it on his own, weight shift, treat! sometimes we wouldn't get past the weight shift, I take his paw, lots of "good boy!" and a treat. A couple hrs went by and I on the fly asking him for his paw, and hes been a wiz at it since, yesterday he showed me "hi!" I treated, praised and worked on trying to stimulate him to do it again, now hes golden. He is more affection motivated than food motivated, so it works well for him, he gets praised a lot for any glimmer of confidence or independence, its working anyway*

Meal times are no longer him getting a bowl of meat on the porch because now he will not go to the bathroom in the morning. He will stand there for a couple hrs if I let him *I put him in the crate for a while and then try again later, then feed him* But now when he eats I have cut it all up small and he has to work for every single bit, if he refuses to sit or whatever I go inside and try again later, because I'll get frustrated and he will shut down...
*I walk away before I let it show, if I huff or anything, his eyes get wide, his ears go back, and he starts licking his lips, so to prevent that, I go inside to re callibrate both of us, then go back out and hes fine again*

He wasnt always like this, and I been watching all of this build up to this... I don't let him hover and lay on me any more, I don't let him lick me or lean on me when he tried to sit on my foot, he only gets affection from the other 2 people I live with because I feel like I'm rewarding him for being stuck up my ass. He flat out refuses to meet new people on his own, I have to force him over time to accept other people to approach him, and every time he meets new people, he gets fed by them and I ignore him...
*When I first got him, he stook frozen and shaking on the welcome mat by the front door, he was so petrified I just left him. After probably it was more like 45 minuets, I go to pick him up to take him outside, *I sat on the floor talking to him, slowly inched up and gently touched him* He got stiff and started to trickle pee, I gathered him and took him outside where he still couldnt move, my friend cleaned up after him while I had him outside, we sat cross legged on the floor reading books not making any sudden movements, im not sure after how long, but he crawled into my lap and fell asleep. it was maybe around a half hr, and I had to pee so I handed him off *he was OUT* and came back to my friend laughing, he had woken up and was playing with a toy with her. From that day on hes been mine, but I can't remember the days following, I had my older dog, and another foster that I had had for about a month, he bonded instantly to both of them, I always had the same people come by, there were several of them, and the other 2 dogs were great with people, so he learned it was ok, yeah he barked at people and did not *still doesnt* like men at all, but he had the ability to come around by himself if the scary people ignored him, he would approach them and make friends on his own. He still does this when he meets new people, he had a body type in females he prefers and warms up quicker, he likes kids, he will approach them from the front and try to make friends, so using that, I have people sit down and throw treats to him, but not every one is willing to do that esp. when they are random shoppers at the store.*


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## FurMom1089

Now, don't get me wrong, I don't shun him all the time, when hes off being independent and he comes to check in, I'll reward him with a pet or whatever and send him off again, and hes fine with that, but recently hes stopped playing fetch. He used to be obsessed with the ball... now I AM the ball... I'll get him all excited with it, and throw it, he'll watch it go, then sit down and stare at me with this creepy adoring expression... hes acting like a bad boyfriend
*I don't like it because its unhealthy imo, dogs develop obsessions in strange things, sometimes its balls, rocks, whatever, most of the time a trainer is brought in to help curb this, with me being the trainer, its difficult and I'm not sure how to handle it*

*Obviously what I'm doing is wrong if hes getting worse,* but I just don't know what to do anymore... He used to have other dogs that he would be like this with, but I was forced to give up my other dogs when I moved here*its a long story that doesnt matter to this case, it matters to me though*, and I think that may be what the problem is. The other dogs we live with here are good dogs, not my kind of dog, but good for their owners. But hes not allowed to play with them dog style, u know, wresting, normal dog stuff, their yellow lab bitch is loud at playing so they always stop them, Rilee is used to playing like this, I never stop him from playing, I think hes frustrated by this in particular, if I try to play with him*AND *I missed a word** he just wants to chew on me, I stop and walk away.*he just follows me, hes not tramatized becuase I don't say anything or do anything, I just stop* The other dog is a black lab bitch, sorta a wall flower type, i wouldnt call her timid, but kinda quiet. They play great too, but they get stopped as well with the excuse "she doesn't like that! shes scared!" and then is rescued by being ordered to lay down and stay down.. sounds like punishment for having fun to me... Rilee gets in trouble too... Another reason for him to get frustrated, its almost always their dogs that initiate play, they wag a toy in his face till he finally gives in...

I know he gets yelled at a lot because hes frustrated**I mean by this, he is frustrated, so acts out in one way or another, so he gets a "no" for it*, which obviously doesnt help, but its hard because *the people I live with call the shots*, and with my pay the way it is I simply cannot move out or save anything. I make like 100 bucks a week... But I can't walk him like id like because I'm afraid he will go running down the road after me while im at work, they won't crate him while im gone like I tell them to because they don't like feeling like a kennel**He used to love his crate, he would run in with his chews or use it as his "place" I never used it as a bad dog place, but suddenly now that I'm not the one putting him in there, it is bad, so maybe they are using it as punishment? I cant say becasue I don't know*...* I know for some things there are no solutions until I am able to move, *but is there anything more I could do for him to change my behavior* so he doesnt feel so desperate and I don't incourage his bad behavior??[/QUOTE]

I tried to clarify everything. He came to me from a place with dozens of dogs, it was dirty and he lived with the same 2-3 people for the entirety of those 4+ months *I don't know exactly when he was born because they don't know, and I guessed at when I got him* But he was not socialized at all, and he will not go near his "breeders" I can't say they abused him as I don't really know, but he was neglected for sure, I had to get "extra strength" wormer from the vet and I probably coddled him because I felt bad, He would sleep with me in bed, and lay with me in the chair, he crate trained like a dream, potty training was quite easy too, except for only some men, his ability to meet new people improved. By october a lot of stuff had happened between my landlord and I and I just had to leave, it was too stressful, so I moved into my roommates parents shortly after getting my new job, a month later I quit my first job so i could be more dedicated to my second one, it was a big mistake as hrs got cut, and have improved *so yes, 100 a week is an improvement* but clearly I can't live off that, so I stayed with their parents for longer than I had wanted with the animals, it was easier to stay with some friends closer to work than ride my bike 10 miles one way *I should mention that my animals were not allowed in the house at the parents house, I set up heaters for the winter as a pregnant foster was to have pups soon, real nice eh? but you see where this is going, for about 3 months everyone struggled, I fed animals and got dogs out to play in the morning, lunch time my friend did it, and at night we both did it, I made time to spend time with them because it was what needed to be done, during this time Rilee and I got closer, I didn't take him to meet new people during this time, and I guess I more or less forgot about his fears because the people he saw every day were already friends, it became a problem when I moved here, it took him a long time to over come his fears that became more set during the time I "had" to neglect him, I was still working 2 jobs from sept-nov so most of their care came from some of the best friends anyone could ever ask for. Anyway, I got distracted... Because for those couple months I wasn't around much, the frinds mother txts me one morning at 7am telling me I had till noon to get the animals out or else... I had no choice, I kept what I could, my cat *I lost my other 2 plus a few fosters* 2 dogs *Rilee and a foster pup that I tried to keep, from the litter that was born in the barn* The foster pup was causing stress on my friends who took me in, and a local frined had fallen in love with him, so she took him, At first Rilee got better, he was happier that the stress of the peoples stress was gone, this was about a month ago, but starting about 3 weeks ago, he'd been trying to play with the other 2 dogs like he did the pup, and his mom, hard wrestling, my friends are trying to ease their comfort into allowing some wrestling, but the sound of their dog growling scares them, so they stop it by yelling at them and scolding them, forcing them to lay down and be ashamed for playing of all things. I don't feel I have a say in this, so I just cringe and watch, I've attempted to say something and been shot down, I just try to remember this isn't forever. Other than them stopping him from being rough, they love him, and he likes them a lot now, they treat him very well and change their schedual around to keep him more comfortable and relaxed if I can't be with/ take him with me

He is not hyper active at all, yeah, he gets goofy and bouncy once in a while, but hes great in that if I'm stationary, hes sleeping next to me, if im up and moving so is he. But if I'm not there to control him, I can only do so much, I offer suggestions, and can only hope they take it.

I feel that if I can get him out of the habit of searching for me, everything else will disappear, mostly because yes, I will be able to go for runs twice a day, instead of around the track at the barn, or through the field where ticks are living it up. I also must say he is leashed when we go on the road, one side of the property may be a back road, but I still don't trust people, the other side of the property is a main rt for truckers and loggers, semis coming and going 24-7

And the finger pointing thing. We've been working on this a lot, when we work on it, he does ok, I point, he looks that way, treat, I point and he goes that way, lots of treats and super praise, he goes the wrong way, I make a sharp sound and he comes back, treat. Hes not distressed at all during this, but if during an every day event I need him to go to a specific spot, I point, he looks worried and runs away but stops and waits and looks at me, I try to get him where he needs to be, I'm not frustrated at this point and he will go further away, but I'll call him to me, and he comes running all happy, I then take him to where I need him. Sometimes he will do the catch me if you can!" in circles around me until I do get frustrated and I tell him to git and I run away, he follows, I catch, and praise, then take him to where he needs to be, or hold him if thats what needs to happen. When I catch him hes not in trouble, because coming to me was the right thing to do. But this is a new thing, before the ONLY time he would not come when called if if he had to poo, call it strange, but when he had to go, he had to go, and his ignoring me, told me that, I'd wait, he'd poo, then come bolting to me before I asked again..

I hope I didn't forget anything this time, its taken my a long time to write this out


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## werecatrising

FurMom1089 said:


> If anyone has a suggestion on to how to get him re directed from his nose, currently if they see him searching, he gets put in the crate until he relaxes, then hes ok, but im worried about the time they don't realize hes run off and gets smacked by a car


Why do you want to "get him re directed from his nose."? He is a dog. Dogs use there noses. Quinn has a high drive to search things out. I use that. He loves to track, go to nosework classes, etc. If you don't have those options available to you maybe you can play some games at home. It's not all about physical exercise- dogs need mental stimulation a well. I could run Quinn until he drops, but without working hi mind he is still anxious an unsettled.


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## Sprocket

Furmom, 

I have a dog of similar breed. Mine is crated while I am gone. 

Why can't you crate him while you are gone and exercise him sufficiently when you get back?


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## Liz

You have gotten some good suggestions to start you off. Sad to say we create our own "monsters". He is not bad and your are not evil. Okay?!?! You have coddled him excessively. I have purchased adults dogs who were raised differently than I would have raised them - the first thing I tell my family is that is the past. we are done with that. They now have a really good balanced home and we go from there - no guilt, no pity and no coddling. 

Crating is essential - your dog is making his own decisions constantly. he decides when to go out, where to go, how long to be gone. This is unsafe for him and untenable for you. You need to know where he is at all times. If he is crated when you are not with him then you are free to walk him anywhere any time. 

Using his nose - teach him to track. Many time putting a behavior on command and giving the appropriate outlet takes care of him using it at his discretion. Remember up to now he runs a lot of his life. 

A good walk and play time with you goes a long way even if he is crated or kenneled when you are gone.Obedience works, scent work, even directional training through the pointing are all great. The thing people forget with training is yo cannot get frustrated. It shows and your dog will either get anxious in trying to please or shut down. 

There is a ton more that can be written but honestly unless you contain your pup and make his decisions for him I don't see a lot of progress being made. These are things I would start with. Also, make sure you are happy, calm, and in a patient mood to work with him. Stress, anger, frustration, etc only inhibit learning. I am sure you can work with him and do a good job.


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