# The Quest



## herl (Oct 11, 2012)

Well here I sit, debating the merits of peas vs ground brown rice.
Sigh. After my dogs fell ill while on a recalled dog food, I’ve been on a quest to find a reputable, quality dry food for them. Have tried Orijen 6 fish, Nature’s Variety Instinct, Evo Herring, Mulligan Stew. Some results better than others, each one had its issues. Still looking.
Orijen 6 Fish – Rough fuzzball coats, tufts of hair everywhere, can’t get a comb through them, much scratching. 
Nature’s Variety Instinct-2 bags with “off” smell, tiny kibble, dogs finally refused it, tiny rock poops.
Evo Herring- ok on transition, but very tiny kibbles are just inhaled! Not needing 42% protein either.
Mulligan Stew-Initially nice results, but after 6 wks coats were dulling & thinning noticeably. Also voluminous poop, soft and sometimes liquid at the end. (Sorry too graphic?) Urgency with every poop. This food is 8% fiber and 10% fat. Was feeding increased amount, but still not holding weight.

My wish list in order of importance:

1.	Reputable manufacturer
2.	North American sourcing
3.	No potato, pea protein
4.	Protein: prefer fish or chicken
5.	26-30 protein/14-18 fat
6.	Cost: Don’t care anymore. Will make it happen for the right food.

Here is what is on the list now & my concerns:

Native (Kent mfr)-10% ash, doesn’t disclose premix sourcing, but is locally avail.
By Nature-(Kent) lower ash, but availability? Not locally.
Back 2 Basics (Ainsworth)-Pea protein, higher protein at 38%
Precise-(TX Farm Products)-potato, “fat product”, lower protein
Natural Balance Synergy (CJ Food)-NB past recalls, premix sourcing & digestibility “not disclosed” according to phone rep.
Canine Caviar(Hi Tek)-Dehydrated chicken? % Protein from animal source?
Hi-Tek Alaskan Fish-Peas, Potato
Dr Tim’s – (Ohio Pet) – Availability-This mfr is now managing the former Chenango plant for an investment group which acquired Chenango assets. What does that mean for the current foods Ohio produces? 

What I like:
Canine Caviar-digestibility 91-93%, No GMO ingred, no gluten..
Back 2 Basics – organ meat
Dr. Tim’s-Transparency-readily discloses premix sourcing, reputable manufacturer, protein comes from animal source, low ash meal used.
By Nature – lower ash than Native
Hi Tek Alaskan Fish-35% protein, 14% fat.

Ideas and suggestions welcome & appreciated. Thank you.


----------



## shellbell (Sep 24, 2011)

What about Fromm? If I fed kibble, I think that is the only one out there that I would trust.


----------



## Jacksons Mom (Jun 13, 2010)

As far as company/reputable manufacturer goes, Fromm is #1 in my book. Some of their formulas would fit the bill for your requirements. Their grain-frees do use peas and potato, but their Four-Star grain inclusives don't, and also their Gold and Classic line.


----------



## CorgiPaws (Mar 31, 2009)

You can not beat Fromm and Nutri Source in terms of reliability and ethics of manufacturer.


----------



## herl (Oct 11, 2012)

Thanks. I did look at Fromm. Unfortunately most of their formulas contain potato. The 4Star Salmon and the 4 Star Whitefish both contain potato, so the only 4star would be the chicken. I was somewhat concerned as ingredients 3-7 are grains and the food is only 24% protein. My concern was that the combined weight of those grains may outweigh the chicken meal? Adult Gold also lists potato. The classsic is only 23% protein and ingredients #3-7 are grains. This also concerns me with the Adult Gold. So while I respect the company, their formulas may not work as well for me. My dogs walk/run approx 3 miles per day and do some water work, swimming, 2x per week. So they are active, but are not working dogs so to speak. They seem to do best with a moderate protein 26-30 and fat 14-18, some grain is fine.


----------



## herl (Oct 11, 2012)

Thank you Corgi, I will look at Nutri Source next.


----------



## monster'sdad (Jul 29, 2012)

CorgiPaws said:


> You can not beat Fromm and Nutri Source in terms of reliability and ethics of manufacturer.


Based on what? Do you think Fromm uses ethical sales practices? Come on you are smarter than that. How much Tuna is in that food? None..How much Game Bird is in that other formula None....Please stop with Fromm ethics...the most expensive foods Fromm sells are nothing but manufactured Pea Protein. Nutrisource is made by a candy and snack food company and is crappy low grade food. Forget Canine Caviar as well nothing but lies.

OP, Dr. Tim's is the way to go. Pro-grade food, battle tested.

The family that owns Ohio Pet did in fact take over Chenango but that will have no impact. You are incorrect about another company owning Chenango and OPF just managing it. The OPF Family obtained $3MM of bridge financing to get the deal done.

Try Dr. Tim's Kinesis or Pursuit.


----------



## whiteleo (Sep 7, 2008)

I still wholeheartedly trust Champion pet foods, will always feed Acana to all my fosters..........Don't know what happened with Jackson's Mom but she used to rave about Acana...i won't feed Fromm because dogs are lactose intolerant and they put cheese in their food for gods sake.


----------



## CorgiPaws (Mar 31, 2009)

monster'sdad said:


> Based on what? Do you think Fromm uses ethical sales practices? Come on you are smarter than that. How much Tuna is in that food? None..How much Game Bird is in that other formula None....Please stop with Fromm ethics...the most expensive foods Fromm sells are nothing but manufactured Pea Protein. Nutrisource is made by a candy and snack food company and is crappy low grade food. Forget Canine Caviar as well nothing but lies.
> 
> OP, Dr. Tim's is the way to go. Pro-grade food, battle tested.
> 
> ...


I didn't say anything about ingredients. 
But these foods haven't been involved in recalls, and if you don't think recalls are a big deal, you're a fool.
And I find NutriSource GF formula ingredient lists superior to Dr. Tims. By quite a bit.


----------



## herl (Oct 11, 2012)

Thank you everyone, I was called away from "The Quest" for a bit! So Ohio Pet family actually owns the former Chenango facility is what I understand now. This is what I read on their site and what led me to think otherwise: http://www.ohiopetfoods.com/misc/News9-10-2012.pdf. The thing concerning me now regarding Dr. Tim's is availability as it would be shipped. I'd hoped to be able to find something locally available. I've read a bit about Ohio Pet Foods, and I can find info re: Ainsworth. I'm not seeing much about Kent or Hi Tek as manufacturers. 

Something I find confusing: Fast flash cook or slow cook? I see some brands stating that they cook slowly to preserve nutrients and then others stating they flash fast cook to preserve nutrients. Is there actually a difference?


----------



## herl (Oct 11, 2012)

Thank you all. I was called away from "The Quest" for a bit! Ohio Pet Food family actually owns the former Chenango facility now is what I understand. This is what I read on their site and thus believed they were managing it:http://www.ohiopetfoods.com/misc/News9-10-2012.pdf. My concern with Dr. Tims is availability as it would be ordered online. I was hoping to find something available locally as well. I have read up on Ohio Pet Foods and can find info online regarding Ainsworth as well. Not so much re: Kent & Hi-Tek. 

Something that confuses me: Some brands state they slow cook at lower temperatures to preserve nutrients. Other brands say they flash fast cook to preserve nutrients. Is there a real difference?


----------



## herl (Oct 11, 2012)

Testing....Not sure why my replies aren't showing up.


----------



## herl (Oct 11, 2012)

Thank you all. Was called away from "the quest" for a while. Ohio Pet Foods now owns the former Chenango facility is what I'm understanding. The information I read was on the OPF website. I will post the link. My concern with Dr. Tim's is that it will have to be ordered online. I hope to find something locally available as well. I have read up on Ohio Pet Foods and can find info on Ainsworth as well. Not so much online about Kent & Hi-Tek.

Something confusing: Some brands state that they slow cook at low temps to preserve nutrients. Other brands say that they flash fast cook to preserve nutrients. Is there a difference?


----------



## herl (Oct 11, 2012)

Here is the link to the OPF pdf. announcement re: Chenango: http://www.ohiopetfoods.com/misc/News9-10-2012.pdf


----------



## Unosmom (May 3, 2009)

What about horizon legacy? there are peas in the food, but no pea protein. 

CHICKEN, CHICKEN MEAL, PEA, PEA STARCH, TURKEY MEAL, CHICKEN FAT (PRESERVED WITH MIXED TOCOPHEROLS, SOURCE OF VITAMIN E), SALMON MEAL, PEA FIBRE, FLAXSEED, EGG PRODUCT, SALMON OIL (PRESERVED WITH MIXED TOCOPHEROLS, VITAMIN E), CARROTS, APPLES, BROCCOLI, BOK CHOY, CABBAGE, BLUEBERRIES, SALT, FRUCTOOLIGOSACCHARIDES, YUCCA SCHIDIGERA EXTRACT, DRIED ASPERGILLUS NIGER FERMENTATION EXTRACT, DRIED ASPERGILLUS ORYZAE FERMENTATION EXTRACT, PINEAPPLE, DRIED TRICHODERMA LONGIBRACHIATUM FERMENTATION EXTRACT, DRIED RHIZOPUS ORYZAE FERMENTATION EXTRACT, DRIED ENTEROCOCCUS FAECIUM FERMENTATION PRODUCT, DRIED LACTOBACILLUS CASEI FERMENTATION PRODUCT, DRIED LACTOBACILLUS ACIDOPHILUS FERMENTATION PRODUCT, DRIED BIFIDOBACTERIUM BIFIDUM FERMENTATION PRODUCT, AND DRIED LACTOBACILLUS PLANTARUM FERMENTATION PRODUCT, VITAMIN A ACETATE, VITAMIN D3 SUPPLEMENT, VITAMIN E SUPPLEMENT, VITAMIN B12 SUPPLEMENT, RIBOFLAVIN, NIACIN, FOLIC ACID, PYRIDOXINE HYDROCHLORIDE, THIAMINE MONONITRATE, D-CALCIUM PANTOTHENATE, BIOTIN, L-ASCORBYL-2-POLYPHOSPHATE (SOURCE OF VITAMIN C), FERROUS SULPHATE, IRON PROTEINATE*, ZINC SULPHATE, ZINC PROTEINATE*, MANGANOUS OXIDE, MANGANESE PROTEINATE*, COPPER SULPHATE, COPPER PROTEINATE*, CALCIUM IODATE, SODIUM SELENITE, MAGNESIUM OXIDE.


ALMON, SALMON MEAL, PEAS, PEA STARCH, MENHADON MEAL, SALMON OIL (PRESERVED WITH MIXED TOCOPHEROLS), PEA FIBRE, ALFALFA, FLAXSEED, LOQUID EGG PRODUCT, CARROTS, APPLES, BROCCOLI, BOK CHOY, CABBAGE, BLUEBERRIES, SALT, FRUCTOOLIGOSACCHARIDES, YUCCA SCHIDIGERA EXTRACT, GLUCOSAMINE HYDROCHLORIDE, CHONDROITIN SULPHATE, DRIED SACCHAROMYCES CEREVISIAE FERMENTATION EXTRACT, DRIED ASPERGILLUS NIGER FERMENTATION EXTRACT, DRIED ASPERGILLUS ORYZAE FERMENTATION EXTRACT, PINEAPPLE, DRIED TRICHODERMA LONGIBRACHIATUM FERMENTATION EXTRACT, DRIED RHIZOPUS ORYZAE FERMENTATION EXTRACT, DRIED ENTEROCOCCUS FAECIUM FERMENTATION PRODUCT, DRIED LACTOBACILLUS CASEI FERMENTATION PRODUCT, DRIED LACTOBACILLUS ACIDOPHILUS FERMENTATION PRODUCT, DRIED BIFIOBACTERIUM BIFIDUM FERMENTATION PRODUCT, DRIED LACTOBACILLUS PLANTARUM FERMENTATION PRODUCT, VITAMIN A ACETATE, VITAMIN D3 SUPPLEMENT, VITAMIN E SUPPLEMENT, VITAMIN B12 SUPPLEMENT, RIBOFLAVIN, NIACIN, FOLIC ACID, PYRIDOXINE HYDROCHLORIDE, THIAMINE MONONITRATE, D-CALCIUM PANTOTHENATE, BIOTIN, L-ASCORBYL-2-POLYPHOSPHATE (SOURCE OF VITAMIN C), FERROUS SULPHATE, IRON PROTEINATE, ZINC SULPHATE, ZINC PROTEINATE, MANGANOUS OXIDE, MANGANESE PROTEINATE, COPPER SULPHATE, COPPER PROTEINATE, CALCIUM IODATE, SODIUM SELENITE, MAGNESIUM OXIDE.


It is 34% protein though.


----------



## Sheltielover25 (Jan 18, 2011)

After a couple year's worth of researching different animal foods, the only one I found suitable is ZiwiPeak. It's expensive, but my animal only eats about half of what they suggest on the back so it's not as much as you initially think. It's 85% meat, and a variety of parts at that, which are free-range, and fed a species-appropriate diet with no GMOS! It was the only food I could find on the market that avoids GMO and uses free-range meats.

If you can't feed raw, it's the closest thing to a species-appropriate diet.. Nice short ingredient list, no CHINA VITAMINS!


----------



## monster'sdad (Jul 29, 2012)

CorgiPaws said:


> I didn't say anything about ingredients.
> But these foods haven't been involved in recalls, and if you don't think recalls are a big deal, you're a fool.
> And I find NutriSource GF formula ingredient lists superior to Dr. Tims. By quite a bit.


That is because you don't know much about dog food. There isn't even a comparison. NS GF foods are garbage. They are low in meat protein, use second class ingredients and have a horrible Omega 6/3 ratio with a joke of .2% Omega 3. The 6/3 ratio is 15 times.

3 forms of peas, cheap "egg product", yeast culture, brewers yeast. Terrible fiber type and level.

Junk in a Bag and the best food is 28% protein with all the peas and yeast.

It is amazing that someone would come to that conclusion.


----------



## monster'sdad (Jul 29, 2012)

Yes a big difference. Flash cooking involves temps over 500 degress. OPF is around 300. Ainsworth is Dad's Pet Care. Kent is feed store brand, but Native is pretty good and good value.


----------



## DaViking (Sep 27, 2011)

Nutrisource GF's are budget friendly for a reason; there are relatively a lot of pea products vs animal products. Probably less than that Zignature brand and similar but def more than other good brands. I'd like to know the percentage of animal protein in NS various formulas. Nutrisource GF is a "value" brand. Dogs who does great on these formulas, Fromm 4-Star and similar are simply a testament to the fact that dogs do great with a certain amount of their food coming from plant/carb sources.


----------



## DaViking (Sep 27, 2011)

herl said:


> Well here I sit, debating the merits of peas vs ground brown rice.
> 
> --- snip ---
> 
> Ideas and suggestions welcome & appreciated. Thank you.


Another option could be Redpaw's new X-series. Fitness 2

Re Canine Caviar; There are big questions surrounding their claims and marketing, not very cut 'n dry at all. Therefor, knowing the amount of cultures they put into their various formulas, I have a hard time "liking" them. Some would even say "there sure is a lot of great cattle feed in that food"


----------



## herl (Oct 11, 2012)

Wow, this is a lot to digest...(pun intended). Thank you all for the information. More research for me!


----------



## CorgiPaws (Mar 31, 2009)

I'm going to state AGAIN that I never said its the end all be all of ingredients, because its not. NO kibble is perfect. I recommend it based on the fact they have never been involved in a recall, and take measures not to be, and I've seen dogs do phenomenal on it. I don't feed my dogs kibble, but I do feed my cats Pure Vita GF and an pleased with the results. Unlike Monsters Dad, I havezero emotional hangup on any dog kibble. Different foods will work for different dogs, end of story. No one kibble is great for all.


----------



## Javadoo (May 23, 2011)

monster'sdad said:


> That is because you don't know much about dog food. There isn't even a comparison. NS GF foods are garbage. They are low in meat protein, use second class ingredients and have a horrible Omega 6/3 ratio with a joke of .2% Omega 3. The 6/3 ratio is 15 times.
> 
> 3 forms of peas, cheap "egg product", yeast culture, brewers yeast. Terrible fiber type and level.
> 
> ...


Hershey, is that you??
Geez...do you ever give up?

Still as charming as ever, I see!!


----------



## murbanski (Sep 25, 2012)

moster'sdad I believe you can be informative without such abrasive language. I believe this is a forum to help people, not be rude/insult them.


----------



## InkedMarie (Sep 9, 2011)

If you ever get OK with ordering, take a look at BrothersComplete.com.

I feed two foods, both get shipped to me and I'm used to ordering now! One is auto ship, the other one can be but i haven't set it up yet.


----------



## herl (Oct 11, 2012)

Thanks InkedMarie. I did start to research Brothers and it seems to have many favorable reviews. I have read of many pets who have great results on this food. I even emailed the owner of the brand & he responded very quickly. I was concerned with the ash level seeming higher than comparable foods. One thing I wonder though: Is there is just more chicken meal in some brands, which would result in a higher ash? Perhaps some brands are not using low ash meal, just less chicken meal? I'm not advanced enough in my dog food education to discern if that is even possible! I am also on the hunt for a pea free food. I hope to find one food I can rely on, even if I need to order it. The plan is to have one food available locally as well, in case an order arrives damaged. For some reason, more than once I have ended up with damaged bags or very close expiration dates. Not good when I'm running low on food and expecting an order.


----------



## SaharaNight Boxers (Jun 28, 2011)

@herl

Have you ever thought of or considered dehydrated or freeze dried foods?


----------



## herl (Oct 11, 2012)

Thanks, I used Honest Kitchen a few years ago. Over time, they were not holding weight or muscle tone and they experienced multiple bouts of runny poo. I'm looking to find a dry food for them. I've been reading up on ZiwiPeak & that does look interesting. Trying to calculate the cost for 4 of these guys/day, looks expensive. But if it is trustworthy, decent nutrition, & they'll do well, I will make it happen. I was also thinking about the dehydrated chicken in Canine Caviar.
Is dehydrated better than meal? Granted, dehydrated is not rendered, but is protein the same? Always thinking....


----------



## SaharaNight Boxers (Jun 28, 2011)

I'm not a big fan of THK myself. Way too many carbs which is why they couldn't keep their muscle probably. 

I was just wondering about it because of what you seem to like. If you're thinking of expense you could get something like Sojo's which is meant to have fresh meat added in or add in fresh meat to make it last longer. 

A few alternatives I've found to Ziwipeak which are essentiall the same are Real Meat Pet and Only Natural Pet MaxMeat. They are about $30 cheaper a 10 lb box on the set time ship for MaxMeat. It's the same idea as Ziwipeak-air dried, 90% meat, just cheaper. 

Personally, I would say dehydrated is better because it's been less cooked and tampered with most of the time. Sometimes they just dehydrate cooked meat though too. But of course it all depends on the quality of the meat. 

I might have missed it, how big are your dogs?


----------



## InkedMarie (Sep 9, 2011)

herl said:


> Thanks InkedMarie. I did start to research Brothers and it seems to have many favorable reviews. I have read of many pets who have great results on this food. I even emailed the owner of the brand & he responded very quickly. I was concerned with the ash level seeming higher than comparable foods. One thing I wonder though: Is there is just more chicken meal in some brands, which would result in a higher ash? Perhaps some brands are not using low ash meal, just less chicken meal? I'm not advanced enough in my dog food education to discern if that is even possible! I am also on the hunt for a pea free food. I hope to find one food I can rely on, even if I need to order it. The plan is to have one food available locally as well, in case an order arrives damaged. For some reason, more than once I have ended up with damaged bags or very close expiration dates. Not good when I'm running low on food and expecting an order.


I honestly can't tell you anything about ash content in any food. I had never heard of it before visiting the dog food advisor website but liked all the positive reviews. The owner spent so much time on the phone with me, the food is guaranteed so how can I not try it? I just ordered my second bag yesterday. My gal with soft very frequent poop now goes 2-3 times a day and it's tiny, formed stuff! I'm pretty sure our other dog isn't paw licking as much but that may be wishful thinking. I'm okay with ordering, I'd have to drive 35min one way to get to a store with a good supply of quality foods so this saves me money.


----------



## herl (Oct 11, 2012)

Thanks everybody for all your consideration, I appreciate it. Marie, congrats on the nice poops! I'm going to be boarding all dogs for 3 days at the holidays, thus establishing them on a dry food will be much easier. They are all medium size dogs, 2 45-48 lbs, 1 30 lb, one big girl lab mix 63ish lbs. Big Girl is not staying, she was found tied to the fence outside the kennel. She will be here until she understands how to live in polite society. LOL. The little girl, Ruby, is a spaniel mix who claimed us. The other two are Portuguese Water Dogs. 

I don't fully understand the ash thing. What I'm getting is that whatever the meat source, the ash would be minerals left over after burning. The dog then excretes excess ash and the kidney's work harder.
If the meat source contains a lot of bones and less muscle meat the ash content is higher. Thus a lower ash is desirable and indicative of better quality meat source? If this is incorrect please anyone jump in, as I've worked my way up from knowing nothing to now knowing next to nothing! 

I did email with Dr. Tim today, talk about a quick response, literally 20 minutes. So the goal is to have one dry food fed regularly which can be ordered online if necessary and one dry food available locally to rotate.


----------

