# Worst Dry Foods



## LabradorRetriever2009 (Jan 29, 2009)

Abady
Affinity
Arion
Arkhat
Bench & Field
Beta
Bil Jac
Bozita
Buckeye
Chicopee
Country Pursuit
Diamond
Eukanuba
Excel
GoodLife Recipe
Hill's Science Diet
Hill's Prescription
Husse
Iams
K-9 Premium
Lassie Natural Way
Luposan
Mera
Nova Class
Nova Trainger
Nutra Nuggets
Optimum
PC
Pet Promise
PMI
Pro Pac
Pro Plan
Purina ONE
Purina
Red Flannel
Royal Canin
Star Pro
Super Coat
Ultra Canine
Wafcol
Wagg
Winalot


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## rockymtsweetie82 (Jul 24, 2008)

I think you forgot Ol'Roy?


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## LabradorRetriever2009 (Jan 29, 2009)

Ol'Roy? I don't think I've ever heard of that brand before. But, I did definately forget Alpo! Check out the ingredients on a bag of Alpo dog food:

Ingredients:
Ground Yellow Corn, Digest of Chicken By-Products, Poultry By-Product Meal, Animal Fat(stabilized with BHA), Lamb Meal, Brewer's Rice, Ground Barley, Soybean Meal, Corn Gluten Meal, Whole Chicory Root, Salt, Potassium Chloride, Zinc Sulfate, Ferrous Sulfate, Copper Sulfate, Manganese Sulfate, Potassium Iodide, Sodium Selenite, Choline Chloride, Vitamin E, A, B12 & D3 Supplements, Niacin, Calcium Pantothenate, Riboflavin Supplement, Thiamin Mononitrate, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride, Folic Acid, Biotin. 

Oh, and Beneful! Check this out:

Ingredients:
Ground yellow corn, chicken-by-product meal, corn gluten meal, whole wheat flour, beef tallow preserved with mixed-tocopherols (source of Vitamin E), rice flour, beef, soy flour, Minerals (tricalcium phosphate, salt, potassium chloride, dicalcium phosphate, calcium carbonate, zinc sulfate, ferrous sulfate, manganese sulfate, copper sulfate, calcium iodate, sodium selenite), sugar, sorbitol, water, animal digest, phosphoric acid, sorbic acid (a preservative), L-Lysine monohydrochloride, dried peas, dried carrots, calcium propionate (a preservative), choline chloride, Vitamins [Vitamin E, Vitamin A, niacin, Vitamin B-12, calcium pantothenate, riboflavin supplement, biotin, thiamine mononitrate, pyridoxine hydrochloride, folic acid, menadione sodium bisulfite complex (source of Vitamin K activity), Vitamin D-3], added color (Yellow 5, Red 40, Yellow 6, Blue 2), DL-Methionine, glyceryl monostearate, garlic oil.


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## rannmiller (Jun 27, 2008)

Oh we know they're awful.


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## claybuster (Dec 18, 2008)

Abady makes the worst dry foods list? But then again I understand your line of thinking. I have read some of your posts and you are definitely an advocate of omnivore nutrition. Sea vegetable I read in another post is what you recommend. How long has your carnivore been scuba diving? EVO and some of your other picks are indeed wonderful foods if you wish to follow the path of omnivore nutrition. Me, I'll stick with the Abady and feed my dog species appropriate and yes, that includes lots of Chicken By-product meal and good old pork fat lard, and you can keep the seaweed.


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## LabradorRetriever2009 (Jan 29, 2009)

Have you ever read the ingredients in Abady!?! Here is an example; Abady Classic Maintenance/Stress Formula

Ingredients:
Chicken By-Products Meal (Highest Quality), White Rice, Menhaden Fish Meal (Select Grade), Lard (the finest land-based source of the longest chain Omega 3 and Omega 6 fatty acids), Safflower Oil, Beef Fat, Dicalcium Phosphate, Beef Meat & Bone Meal, Potassium Chloride, Undefatted Beef Liver (Human Grade), Flaxseed Oil (Organic), Whey Protein Concentrate, Choline Choride, Natural Flavor, Menhaden Fish Oil, Ferrous Sulfate, d-Alpha Tocopheeryl Actate (Source of natural Viatmin E), Magnesium Oxide, Zinc Oxide, Ascorbic Acid (Vitamin C), Vitamin A Acetate, Taurine, Niacinamide, d-Calcium Pantothenate, Inositol, Citrus Bioflavanoid Complex, Ergocaciferol (Vitamin D3), Manganese Sulfate, Riboflavin, Potassium Iodide, Phytonadione (Vitamin K1), Thimaine Hydrochloride, Cupric Oxide, Chromium GTF, Sodium Selenite, Folic Acid, Biotin, Cyanocobalamin Concentrate (Vitamin B12).

Not only does it contain byproducts, but byproducts of unidentifiable origin! Is that something you really want to be feeding your dog? Who knows what kind of junk is thrown in there. The third ingredient in this food is a named meat product, in meal form, that is good. Two further meat related products (including the primary ingredient) are all by-products, which is bad. White rice is the main grain in the food, and is of decent quality, even though white rice is not a good grain to be feeding to a dog. The manufacturer does not disclose the nature of the preservatives used in this product. Overall, this product probably contains a reasonable amount of meat-related products, but makes prolific use of very low quality and unidentifiable source ingredients.

Here is another. Abady Large Breed Growth Formula:

Ingredients:
Chicken Meal, White Rice, Menhaden Fish Meal (Select Grade), Beef Meat & Bone Meal, Lard (the finest land-based source of the longest chain Omega 3 and Omega 6 fatty acids), Sunflower Oil (Premium Grade, Non-genetically Engineered Variety, Sunflower Oil is the Only Non-Toxic Oil in the Marketplace), Poultry By-Products Meal, Lamb Fat, Dicaclium Phosphate, Whey Protein Concentrate (Human Grade), Potassium Chloride, Choline Cloride, Salt (Sodium Chloride), di-Alpha Tocopheryl Acetate (source of natural Vitamin E), Ascorbic Acid (Vitamin C), Amino Acid Supplement, Zinc Oxide, Magnesium Oxide, Vitamine A Acetate, d-Calcium Pantothenate, Inositol, Citrus Biodlavanoid Complex, Para Amino Benzoic Acid, Cholecalciferol (Vitamin D3), Stomach Substance, Cupric Oxide, Riboflavin, Thiamine Hydrochloride, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride, Cobalt Chloride, Sodium Selenite, Manganese Sulfate, Chromium GTF, Folic Acid, Biotin, Sodium Molybdate, Cyanocobalamin Concentrate (Vitamin B12).

This one contains byproducts, byproducts of unidentifiable origin, AND a low quality fat source! I sure wouldn't feed my dog this food. The first and third ingredients in this food are named meat products, in meal form. Three further meat related products are all by-products. White rice is the main grain in the food, and is of decent quality. 

This is why I consider Abady to be one of the worst foods you could feed your dog! Here is another example of another terrible food. It is called Abady Giant Breed Growth Formula:

Ingredients:
Chicken Meal, White Rice, Menhaden Fish Meal (Select Grade), Chicken By-Products Meal (Highest Quality), Beef Meat & Bone Meal, Sunflower Oil (Premium Grade, Non-genetically Engineered Variety, Sunflower Oil is the Only Non-Toxic Oil in the Marketplace), Pork Fat (the finest land-based source of the longest chain Omega 3 and Omega 6 fatty acids), Dicaclium Phosphate, Potassium Chloride, Lamb Fat, Whey Protein Concentrate (Human Grade), Undefatted Beef Liver (Human Grade), Choline Cloride, Flaxseed Oil (Organic), Natural Flavor, Salt (Sodium Chloride), Menhaden Fish Fat, Anmino Acid Supplement, di-Alpha Tocopheryl Acetate (source of natural Vitamin E), Ascorbic Acid (Vitamin C), Ferrous Sulphate, Zinc Oxide, Vitamine A Acetate, Cupric Oxide, Niacinamide, Inositol, Citrus Biodlavanoid Complex, Stomach Substance, Riboflavin, Potassium Iodide, Thiamine Hydrochloride, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride, Menadione Sodium bisulfite (Vitamin K), Chromium GTF, Cobalt Chloride, Sodium Molybdate, Folic Acid, Biotin, Cyanocobalamin Concentrate (Vitamin B12).

The first and third ingredients in this food are named meat products, in meal form. Three further meat related products are all by-products. The manufacturer does not disclose the nature of the preservatives used in this product. The manufacturer does not disclose the nature of the preservatives used in this product. Another? Abady Stress Maintenance Formula:

Ingredients:
Chicken Meal, White Rice, Menhaden Fish Meal (Select Grade), Lard (the finest land-based source of the longest chain Omega 3 and Omega 6 fatty acids), Safflower Oil, Beef Meat & Bone Meal, Chicken By-Products Meal (Highest Quality), Beef Fat, Dicalcium Phosphate, Potassium Chlorise, Undefatted Beef Liver (Human Grade), Flaxseed Oil (Organic), Salt (Sodium Chloride), Natural Flavor, Mendaden Fish Fat, d-Alpha Tocopheryl Acetate (Source of natural Vitamin E), Ferrous Sulfate, Amino Acid Supplement, Magnesium Oxide, Ascorbic Acid (Vitamin C), Zinc Oxide, Vitamin A Acetate, Inositol, d-Calcium Pantothenate, Niacinamide, Manganese Sulfate, Cholecalciferol (Vitamin D3), Citrus Bioflavanoid Complex, Stomach Substance, Cupfic Oxide, Riboflavin, Potassium Iodide, Thiamine Hydrochloride, Phytonadione (Vitamin K1), Cobalt Chloride, Sodium Selenite, Folic Acid, Biotin, Cyanocobalamin Concentrate (Vitamin B12).

The first and third ingredients in this food are named meat products, in meal form. Two further meat related products are both by-products. White rice is the main grain in the food, and is of decent quality. Overall, this product probably contains a reasonable amount of meat-related products, but makes prolific use of very low quality and unidentifiable source ingredients.\

Here is Abady State of the Art Maintenance/Stress & Growth formula for Toys, another terrible dog food:

Ingredients:
Chicken Meal, White Rice, Menhaden Fish Meal (Select Grade), Chicken By-Product Meal, Lard (the finest land-based source of the longest chain Omega 3 and Omega 6 Fatty Actids), Beef Meat & Bone Meal, Beef Fat, Safflower Oil (Human Grade), Flaxseed Oil (organic), Torula Yeast, Natural Flavors, Amino Acid Supplement, Menhaden Fish Fat, Potassium Chloride, d-Alpha Tocopheryl Acetate (source of natural Vitamin E), Choline Chloride, Ascorbid Acid (Vitamin C), Vitamin A Acetate, d-Calcium Pantothenate, Taurine, L-carnitine, Niacinamide, Inositol, Zinc Oxide, Ergocalciferol (Vitamin D3), Riboflavin, Thiamine Hydrochloride, Pyridoxine Hydrochoride, Phytonadione (Vitamin K1), Ferrous Sulfate, Sodium Selenite, Potassium Iodide, Chromium GTF, Folic Acid, Biotin, Cyanocobalamin Concentrate (Bitamin B12).

The first and third ingredients in this food are named meat products, in meal form. Two further meat related products are both by-products. White rice is the main grain in the food, and is of decent quality. Overall, this product probably contains a reasonable amount of meat-related products, but makes prolific use of very low quality and unidentifiable source ingredients. 

Now tell me...does it sound like a good idea to feed your dog byproducts, byproducts of unidentifiable origin, and low quality fat!?! I would think not!


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## RawFedDogs (Jun 16, 2008)

LabradorRetriever2009 said:


> Now tell me...does it sound like a good idea to feed your dog byproducts, byproducts of unidentifiable origin, and low quality fat!?! I would think not!


Hehehe, well Charlie, you got your work cut out for you. :smile: :smile: :smile:


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## LabradorRetriever2009 (Jan 29, 2009)

Chicken by-product meal is defined by AAFCO as "consisting of the ground, rendered, clean parts of the carcass of slaughtered chicken, such as necks, feet, undeveloped eggs and intestines, exclusive of feathers, except in such amounts as might occur unavoidable in good processing practice. Meat and bone meal is an extremely low quality product of unidentifiable origin and something we would go to great lengths to avoid in any dog food. It is defined as "the rendered product from mammal tissues, exclusive of blood, hair, hoof, horn, hide trimmings, manure, stomach and rumen contents except in such amounts as may occur unavoidably in good processing practices". Overall, this product probably contains a reasonable amount of meat-related products, but makes prolific use of very low quality and unidentifiable source ingredients. White rice is the main grain in the food, and is of decent quality. Lard, however, is a low quality fat. It is the rendered fat of pigs, of similar quality to tallow. The manufacturer does not disclose the nature of the preservatives used in this product. The second of these is a fish meal product, but we are unable to locate any guarantee on the manufacturer's website that the protein ingredients used in the food are free of ethoxyquin (ethoxyquin is a chemical preservative, commonly added to fish ingredients, but that is banned or heavily regulated in human food production due to the belief that it is carcinogenic).


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## RawFedDogs (Jun 16, 2008)

LabradorRetriever2009 said:


> Chicken by-product meal is defined by AAFCO as "consisting of the ground, rendered, clean parts of the carcass of slaughtered chicken, such as necks, feet, undeveloped eggs and intestines, exclusive of feathers, except in such amounts as might occur unavoidable in good processing practice. Meat and bone meal is an extremely low quality product of unidentifiable origin and something we would go to great lengths to avoid in any dog food. It is defined as "the rendered product from mammal tissues, exclusive of blood, hair, hoof, horn, hide trimmings, manure, stomach and rumen contents except in such amounts as may occur unavoidably in good processing practices".


You just can't get over pasting can you? All of this stuff came from Dog Food Reviews - Abady Maintenance/Stress formula - Powered by ReviewPost It would be a lot easier on you just to post the link, don't you think?

BTW: Speaking of links, check out this link that shows the nutritional contents of chicken by-product meal. I assume you can also read and understand nutritional analysis. You might change your mind about this ingredient. 65% Poultry By-Product Meal


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## claybuster (Dec 18, 2008)

RawFedDogs said:


> Hehehe, well Charlie, you got your work cut out for you. :smile: :smile: :smile:




It's a lost cause I'm afraid. I'm sure the subscription to the WDJ won't run out anytime soon for Lab09.


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## claybuster (Dec 18, 2008)

RawFedDogs said:


> You just can't get over pasting can you? All of this stuff came from Dog Food Reviews - Abady Maintenance/Stress formula - Powered by ReviewPost It would be a lot easier on you just to post the link, don't you think?
> 
> BTW: Speaking of links, check out this link that shows the nutritional contents of chicken by-product meal. I assume you can also read and understand nutritional analysis. You might change your mind about this ingredient. 65% Poultry By-Product Meal



Ohh....one of the food critics from over there at dog food reviews, good homework RFD with the copy and pasting. Rateitall is another popular one where they get these perks in the mail like coupons and stuff for writing reviews on products never tried. Maybe Lab09 is the original poster over there and he is copy and pasting his own material? hmmm.


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## RawFedDogs (Jun 16, 2008)

You don't really believe that do you? :smile:


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## rannmiller (Jun 27, 2008)

Kind of annoying having someone who doesn't know what they're talking about attack your food with full force by copying and pasting other websites' materials, huh? 

Actually I lied, it's kind of fun. Just the volume of the inundation of pasted material is what gets annoying.


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## TippysMom (Oct 3, 2008)

claybuster said:


> How long has your carnivore been scuba diving?


HA HA HA HA - this cracked me up!! I got an image in my head of a dog in scuba gear! Guess it's time for bed, I'm getting silly.:biggrin:


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## Postal (Jan 23, 2009)

Plymouth2009 said:


> I agree with Labrador. Abady is NOT a quality food. It contains chicken byproducts. AAFCO: Consists of the dry, ground, rendered, clean parts of the carcass of slaughtered chicken, such as necks, feet, undeveloped eggs, and intestines -- exclusive of feathers except in such amounts as might occur unavoidably in good processing practices. YUCK! It also contains unidentifiable byproducts. This could be obtained from ANY animal that enters the slaughterhouse and there is no control over the quality. GROSS! I would never feed my dog byproducts. They are very inexpensive and less digestible than muscle meat. Who knows where the byproducts came from? It can be any part of the animal other than the meat. Abady also contains low quality fat. It is just swine fat. It is commonly used to make low quality food smell and taste better to canines. It has very little nutritional value. The byproducts is the thing that gets me. I love my dogs too much to feed them this stuff!


Do you share his pencil, too?


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## rannmiller (Jun 27, 2008)

Bahahaha! Postal, you are cracking me up!


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## Postal (Jan 23, 2009)

haha. Did the guy honestly think we wouldn't catch on to the gimmick? I think RFD had a hunch long before I even got back on the forum lol


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## Doc (Jan 17, 2009)

*Abady*

Ok, some of you in here will unload on me but ..... I feed some Abady to my German shepherds and they love it. For one young one, it is the only commercial product that does not turn her into a spewing manure spreader! Chicken by-product isn't necessarily bad - it depends upon the source and supplier. I wouldn't want week old road kill or anything like that. Claybuster, maybe some of us appreciate the usefullness of all parts of the chicken. LOL Gizzards and livers fried real hard in cast-iron skillet. Well just smack my lips!

I haven't gone the raw route, but would enjoy reading some scientific unbiased research reports comparing raw with home cooked with kibble.


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## rannmiller (Jun 27, 2008)

Oh don't get claybuster wrong, he feeds it to his dogs and is the biggest fan of Abady I've ever met! Maybe you read one of his more sarcastic posts, but trust me, the man is a fan of the by-products and the Abady!


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## rannmiller (Jun 27, 2008)

And unfortunately unbiased research on raw will probably be hard to find because no one is willing to fund it because it would make it hard to market their crappy kibble afterwards. 

The best unbiased research I can tell you about is how well raw has worked out for my dogs and all the other dogs I've heard it improve the lives of as well. I guess you could say my own dogs are my own research on raw feeding being beneficial, and I think that could go for everyone else feeding raw too. 

I know it's not the scientific answer you were hoping for, but those tests and research projects are often skewed and misleading to support what they're paid to "discover" so usually trying things on your own can be the best way of figuring out if they're right for you (within reason, of course).


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## Doc (Jan 17, 2009)

*Abady*

Well we don't exactly know the source of the by products that Abady contains. But it could be of high quality. I will admit, if you just read the ingrediant list then Abady looks like it goes against all current trends. I don't recall any dog deaths attributed to the product. I know of people who have been feeding this for a very long time and they are very happy with the product.

Its good to have a place for open dialog about various topics.


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## claybuster (Dec 18, 2008)

Doc said:


> Ok, some of you in here will unload on me but ..... I feed some Abady to my German shepherds and they love it. For one young one, it is the only commercial product that does not turn her into a spewing manure spreader! Chicken by-product isn't necessarily bad - it depends upon the source and supplier. I wouldn't want week old road kill or anything like that. Claybuster, maybe some of us appreciate the usefullness of all parts of the chicken. LOL Gizzards and livers fried real hard in cast-iron skillet. Well just smack my lips!
> 
> I haven't gone the raw route, but would enjoy reading some scientific unbiased research reports comparing raw with home cooked with kibble.


Hey Doc,
I caught one of your posts earlier about using Abady but didn't get the chance to get back with you. Glad to hear the GSDs love it and sounds like its going well for you. See that folks, I ain't the only one!!


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## Doc (Jan 17, 2009)

I just re-ordered another box of Abady for all my GSDs. I've tried numerous hi protein kibbles and they didn't eat most of them. They went straight to the Abady and are still licking their bowls clean. Seems like my dogs like whatever is in it and have checked out in great health at the vets so far. The list of words on the side of the bag are just words. The proof is in the product.

I'm going ot SeaWorld soon and I am going ot seeif they have any scuba dogs around that eat seaweed!


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## claybuster (Dec 18, 2008)

I have a store not too far that handles Abady at pretty good prices. My next order I think will be a 35-lb box of Basic Maintenance. It's been a good stretch on "classic" for few years, but time to mix it up again, even though it all looks the same granular. My last box of BASIC a few years back was smoking at over 1000 cals per cup, and I'm wondering what the ingredients look like now. I know Maintenance and Stress went to Chicken Meal as a #1
a few years back. No problems kicking in the animal source proteins though because they moved CBPM down to about #6 or 7.


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## claybuster (Dec 18, 2008)

Doc said:


> Well we don't exactly know the source of the by products that Abady contains. But it could be of high quality.


Well, they say right there in the in ingredients panel in parenthesis 'highest quality', so I'm confident they put that in for a reason. I can say that in six years of feeding I only found one small bonus item, a small bird foot little bigger than the size of a quarter dollar.

That's a lot better than what I found in some other foods in some 20+ years of feeding. Found a dehydrated field mouse once in a generic brand bag of food from one of the industry leaders and no hole in the bag!


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## Doc (Jan 17, 2009)

I've only used Stress and Maint. No State of the Art or Basic Maint. I'm sure their quality is good. So far no surprises in the product.


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## TJ99959 (Feb 4, 2009)

LabradorRetriever2009 said:


> Abady
> Affinity
> Arion
> Arkhat
> ...


Did you know that 3xNFC Candlewood Tanks-A-Lot (who was sold to the Swigles for $265,000) was on Iams her entire life (13 years) As was her dad NFC-NAFC Candlewood Super Tanker? Did you know that 2xNAFC-2xNAFTCH(Canada) Ebonstar Lean Mac was on Pro-Plan Performance his entire life? Did you know that BIS CH K-Run's Park Me In First (Uno) is on Purina Dog Chow?

I find it really interesting that the cream of the crop, the winningest dogs on the planet, are all being fed these so called "worse foods"

Did you know that Uno's budget for 2008 was $96,000. I doubt that price had anything to do with being fed such a "cheap food". Did you know that Maxx earned supposedly in excess of $5,000,000 in stud fees (Sherwin won't tell exactly how much) so there is no way that price had anything to do with their decision to feed Pro-Plan.

Just curious if you have an explanation for their successes when you say they take such terrible care of their dogs.

Oh, I almost forgot, that old boy in the avatar, thats Willy. Willy earned his 200th open all age point at the age of 14 to become the all-time high point retriever champion. That pic was taken when he was 16, would you like to guess what brand of dog food he ate? How many dogs do you know, regardless of diet, that are capable of winning a field trial at the age of 14? Do you really think it could be done if being fed an "inferior" food all his life?


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## claybuster (Dec 18, 2008)

TJ99959 said:


> That pic was taken when he was 16, would you like to guess what brand of dog food he ate?


I'll take a shot, but gimmie two chances.

First shot...Purina Pro Plan

Second shot...Diamond Feeds


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## RawFedDogs (Jun 16, 2008)

TJ99959 said:


> Just curious if you have an explanation for their successes when you say they take such terrible care of their dogs.


Couldn't be because their owners were paid to say that, could it? :smile:


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## TJ99959 (Feb 4, 2009)

RawFedDogs said:


> Couldn't be because their owners were paid to say that, could it? :smile:


Being as I know both the owners and their dog, no, not hardly. 

Especially since Uno has spent quite a bit of time right here in dogden.
Picked up his poop more than once 

wife & daughter with Uno. 
Beagle show dogs is what they do. I listed their web site as my home page
http://i396.photobucket.com/albums/pp43/blunderpic/dogs/127.jpg

claybuster, you only needed the first shot.
and I don't even want to think about how many bags of his feed I opened.


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## lorih1770 (Jun 17, 2008)

"I find it really interesting that the cream of the crop, the winningest dogs on the planet, are all being fed these so called "worse foods""


Well, guess who SPONSORS these dog shows??? 

Maybe they really don't feed the low quality foods or maybe they do, but I willing to bet that if they do 1. they don't know any better and 2. they probably also feed supplements with the food. 13 years isn't very old for a dog in my opinion.  We know many dogs have lived a long time on low quality foods, but the question is will they live longer and be healthier on a higher quality food?


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## Postal (Jan 23, 2009)

Some people LOVE to keep the wool pulled over their eyes. I don't know how you guys keep standing up to these people. heh

I can see why you would have a very strong, biased opinion towards the foods if it's all you have ever known, but the only ones that stand up for the kibble battle are the ones who have never TRIED the RAW diet. I'm willing to bet that just about every RAW feeder was, at one time in their life, a kibble feeder. It's what we were led to believe thanks to the wonderful ads on tv and the use of it amongst the general public.. Well, at one point in their life they felt kibble wasn't enough for whatever reason, and ventured out. They research and research, ask questions, read articles and listen to stories. They spend countless hours trying to figure out why something just didn't feel right.. then they end up on RAW and they don't look back. If kibble is so great, then why aren't people waking up one morning and saying to themselves "umm, what am i doing? this food can't be healthy! they just had a recall on chicken, pork, venison and fish all over the world. I better switch to kibble cuz the corn is just so much more promising." ?? 

Come on, man. If you are going to fight for what you've always known, that corn is great, without evening witnessing first hand the benefits of a RAW diet, then you can't sit there and blindly fight the battle between those beliefs when you only have one side's paid off facts. There are lots of people that choose to feed kibble NOT because they feel it's better, but because they either don't believe they have the time for and/or don't have the finances to support a RAW diet. But at least the majority of the ones on this board aim for the premium kibble, usually the grain free stuff.. but always the kibble that is without corn, and I'm sure it's for a pretty good reason :smile:


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## TJ99959 (Feb 4, 2009)

Thats actually funny, we see the results of every diet there is (including RAW) every week of the year in the show ring and on the field trial grounds. Believe me if someone showed up feeding their dog "moon dirt" and started to consistently win, everyone would be going to any length to get themselves a slice of the moon. We are talking about competitive dogs owned by competitive people. If dogs that were fed raw were beating us, all of us would be feeding raw.
The fact is that they don't, so we don't.

Here is the proof that can't be argued with
http://www.westminsterkennelclub.org/images/2/uno.jpg
Where is the RAW fed dog that has won Westminster?

I have fed RAW in the past, and for my needs the results were less than satisfactory. The key words are "for my needs" which are on the field trial grounds, and for my wife and daughter's needs which are in the show ring.

Our dogs spend a ton of time doing things like this;
http://towleroad.typepad.com/photos/uncategorized/2008/02/13/uno.jpg
So there is no way to compare their nutritional needs with the average dog that gets to go for a walk around the block.

"13 years isn't very old for a dog in my opinion. "
Probably should go read that part again, that was just Lottie. Willy lived to 16, but that wasn't the point, he was still capable of running with the youngsters at the age of 14 AND BEAT THEM.
There has NEVER been a RAW fed dog run a field trial here in the US at the age of 14, let alone win.


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## rockymtsweetie82 (Jul 24, 2008)

TJ99959 said:


> The fact is that they don't, so we don't.


So if everyone jumps off the brooklyn bridge are you going to do it to? Apparently you didn't give it enough time. I'm a kibble feeder and starting this weekend, I'm going raw. And I know I"ll see a difference. Because you know what my Puppy eats now? Purina. 

Dry skin, scratching, digging skin, itching, Duckie has a huge hot spot. China's coat is dulled and not very shiny. Looks very bland. Give me 2 weeks. I will take pictures and match them to their kibble fed nasty diet and then you will see. 

Just because the show is sponsored by that kibble doesn't mean that every shower uses it. Thats just speculation.


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## TJ99959 (Feb 4, 2009)

rockymtsweetie82 said:


> So if everyone jumps off the brooklyn bridge are you going to do it to? Apparently you didn't give it enough time. I'm a kibble feeder and starting this weekend, I'm going raw. And I know I"ll see a difference. Because you know what my Puppy eats now? Purina.
> 
> Dry skin, scratching, digging skin, itching, Duckie has a huge hot spot. China's coat is dulled and not very shiny. Looks very bland. Give me 2 weeks. I will take pictures and match them to their kibble fed nasty diet and then you will see.
> 
> Just because the show is sponsored by that kibble doesn't mean that every shower uses it. Thats just speculation.


There is no speculation involved, we do what WINS. What is so hard to understand about that?



> Well, guess who SPONSORS these dog shows???


That's funny, Pedigree sponsors more shows than any other company, and almost no one there feeds pedigree. Eukinuba and Purina only sponsor large shows like the National Invitational and National Specialties.



> There are lots of people that choose to feed kibble NOT because they feel it's better, but because they either don't believe they have the time for and/or don't have the finances to support a RAW diet


A-er I'm retired, and my dog budget (yes I have one) was over $100,000 last year, so just which of those do you think I was lacking.


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## claybuster (Dec 18, 2008)

TJ99959 said:


> Where is the RAW fed dog that has won Westminster?


A GSP about 4 or 5 years back had won Westminster and was a Raw fed dog.


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## rockymtsweetie82 (Jul 24, 2008)

TJ99959 said:


> There is no speculation involved, we do what WINS. What is so hard to understand about that?


Kibble feeding doesn't win. And I have seen enough proof to know that. That's why it's hard to understand what you're pointing out. Because it's wrong.


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## TJ99959 (Feb 4, 2009)

rockymtsweetie82 said:


> Kibble feeding doesn't win. And I have seen enough proof to know that. That's why it's hard to understand what you're pointing out. Because it's wrong.


How many champions would you like me to list that are being fed a kibble diet?

Here is Stanley
http://i396.photobucket.com/albums/pp43/blunderpic/dogs/Picture020.jpg
I know exactly what he eats because I feed him
The nut
http://i396.photobucket.com/albums/pp43/blunderpic/dogs/freestack.jpg
Clover
http://i396.photobucket.com/albums/pp43/blunderpic/dogs/Picture025.jpg
poo
http://i396.photobucket.com/albums/pp43/blunderpic/dogs/Picture016.jpg
I have fifty years worth of photos of winning dogs, would you like me to continue?

See any of that "dry flakey skin" on any of them? how about the "dull coats"


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## Postal (Jan 23, 2009)

TJ99959 said:


> Our dogs spend a ton of time doing things like this;
> http://towleroad.typepad.com/photos/uncategorized/2008/02/13/uno.jpg
> So there is no way to compare their nutritional needs with the average dog that gets to go for a walk around the block.


*Yeah, and my dog does this*











And I guess for being a lazy bum and only getting a walk around the block, HIS needs (not "MY NEEDS") must not be met.. but i bet this dog could sure hold his own between a lot of show dogs










And this is him about 2 months ago..










My brother trains for the marine core and runs on average about 5 miles every other day.. and guess who goes with him? Then on the other days, I'm not so fit, so I go for a walk/jog/run mix of about 2-3 miles and guess who goes with me.. Then we get home and he chases his ball around for another 30 minutes.. then he goes inside and tries his hardest to keep up with the 8 month old kitten, and well know how much energy THEY have.

So don't try and tell us that RAW food might be ok for the average house dog, but not good enough for your treadmill walker.. especially when you are so backwards..

In fact, the choice diet of greyhound racers is uhh.. anything but corn..
Feeding Greyhounds

And whatever in the world is showdog-magazine.com have an article titled "Why Not to Feed Grains"..? I think it's a conspiracy :smile:
Why Not to feed grains.

Oh look, they even have a page dedicated to cooking your pets some "homemade yummies", introducing the BARF diet.
Canine healthy recipes, homecooked dog meals and dog treats

Most of our pets are .. pets. Not award winners in other people's eyes, but award winners enough in our eyes to care enough about their nutrional intake that we believe what we see, and we see that corn and other grain filled kibbles are what cause many of the problems in dogs today. This isn't by going off the supplemented, physically spoiled dogs in our kennels, this is going off the everyday house pet.


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## Postal (Jan 23, 2009)

TJ99959 said:


> A-er I'm retired, and my dog budget (yes I have one) was over $100,000 last year, so just which of those do you think I was lacking.


Well, considering I said most of them were of THAT reason, that's pretty obvious I didn't mean everyone. So yeah, where DOES that put you? You can manage to spend $100k a year on your pups, but you still feed them low quality, cheap kibble?


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## rockymtsweetie82 (Jul 24, 2008)

If he was feeding raw, he wouldn't HAVE to spend that much money on his dog.


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## rockymtsweetie82 (Jul 24, 2008)

TJ99959 said:


> How many champions would you like me to list that are being fed a kibble diet?
> 
> Here is Stanley
> http://i396.photobucket.com/albums/pp43/blunderpic/dogs/Picture020.jpg
> ...


Seriously, have you ever seen a dog with a shiny coat? Because every one of them look like they have dull coats. Not super soft shiny beautiful coats. And of course I'm not going to see dry flakey skin when they dog is not up close enough. 

Shiny Coat

Shiny is when the light or sun reflects off the dogs coat. When the skin is so healthy from all the natural nutrients one receives daily that it radiates through the coat and everyone and their brother can notice it. Now THATS a shiny coat.


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## Postal (Jan 23, 2009)

TJ99959 said:


> Here is the proof that can't be argued with
> http://www.westminsterkennelclub.org/images/2/uno.jpg
> Where is the RAW fed dog that has won Westminster?


Hmph.. is it just me or does Uno have a twin that won the same show on another planet? I mean, it could be me.. but let's allow everyone else to judge, shall we?

What I found here is a news article on msnbc.com




*Uno a hit on whirlwind press tour*
*Best in show winner quickly becomes America’s new heart throb*

By Sandy Robins
msnbc.com contributor
updated 10:03 p.m. CT, Wed., Feb. 13, 2008

Here's the link, but just below it I have added some footnotes for you fellas 

Opinion: Uno a hit on whirlwind press tour - Westminster Dog Show- nbcsports.msnbc.com

_________________________________________

Sixth paragraph down, we read this::



> “We have a special recipe that we make on a George Forman grill,” confided Wilkerson. “I don’t know how much bait he ends up eating during a show, but it certainly adds up. If it’s not steak, it’s pork loin, which is his other favorite.”


---

Now let's migrate to the second page, where we find this in the third paragraph::



> Then the moment Uno had been waiting for arrived. He was served a medium rare fillet steak on a silver platter. The photographers crowded round, but he wolfed it down in under 10 seconds, forcing every photographer to miss the photo opportunity.


---

Now, it's not exactly a raw diet.. but that award winner you are using as a "kibble fed winner" is anything but solely a kibble eater. And they don't put corn in medium rare steaks :smile:


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## rockymtsweetie82 (Jul 24, 2008)

Oh and one more thing. 3 months old. He should look extremely healthy right? Well, to me, he did look healthy. Until I learned about Raw and what it could do. I started doing my own research. At three months old, Duckie should not look like this, even in the sunlight! 

He should be shinier, looking healthier. He shouldn't be scratching his skin til it breaks. That's what woke me up. A puppy sitting in the sunlight and his coat still doesn't shine. Maybe more people can not be blind to the effects of what Raw can do for your pets. I was blind until I found this forum. I even tried to fight it. But I'm not fighting it anymore. I want my pups on raw and on raw they shall be.


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## Postal (Jan 23, 2009)

This a shiny coat
View Photo

This is shiny
View Photo

He's shiny
View Photo

Shiny
View Photo

Shiny again
View Photo

Last shiny
View Photo

Ok, I'm tired of clicking around. You get the point.


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## Postal (Jan 23, 2009)

rockymtsweetie82 said:


> Oh and one more thing. 3 months old. He should look extremely healthy right? Well, to me, he did look healthy. Until I learned about Raw and what it could do. I started doing my own research. At three months old, Duckie should not look like this, even in the sunlight!
> 
> He should be shinier, looking healthier. He shouldn't be scratching his skin til it breaks. That's what woke me up. A puppy sitting in the sunlight and his coat still doesn't shine. Maybe more people can not be blind to the effects of what Raw can do for your pets. I was blind until I found this forum. I even tried to fight it. But I'm not fighting it anymore. I want my pups on raw and on raw they shall be.


But he's still so cute!! I want him heh. He'd be a good chic magnent :tongue:


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## rockymtsweetie82 (Jul 24, 2008)

Well in that case maybe he's a good guy magnet =) 

Yes he's absolutely adorable I could squeeze him! But I won't. I'll just spoil him and feed him what's good for him. His chicken backs and chicken quarters and yum yum! By the time he's 6 months old he'll look so much healthier! Then imagine the guys he'll attract to me HAHAHAHAHA


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## TJ99959 (Feb 4, 2009)

Postal said:


> Hmph.. is it just me or does Uno have a twin that won the same show on another planet? I mean, it could be me.. but let's allow everyone else to judge, shall we?
> 
> What I found here is a news article on msnbc.com
> 
> ...


That steak dinner is a Westminster tradition. Ever Westminster BIS winner gets to go to that photo op and have a steak dinner.That is hardly what he eats day to day.

Bait is just that BAIT, exactly the same as the cookies used to train with. Again it has nothing what so ever to do with the dogs diet. I have a young b*tch right now that baits best to marshmellows, hardly what you would want to include in a dogs normal diet, raw or not!
"Sorka" the marshmellow baiter
http://i396.photobucket.com/albums/pp43/blunderpic/dogs/055.jpg
You think the marshmellows have anything to do with the shine?

now why don't ya just get real


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## TJ99959 (Feb 4, 2009)

> He'd be a good chic magnent


Now that I can agree with


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## TJ99959 (Feb 4, 2009)

Postal said:


> This a shiny coat
> View Photo
> 
> This is shiny
> ...


That is nothing but lighting, I can do that too.
http://i396.photobucket.com/albums/pp43/blunderpic/dogs/beaglebrace.jpg


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## rannmiller (Jun 27, 2008)

Man, those raw fed dogs are pretty shiny! They look like my dogs, if only I had a real camera to capture their beauty instead of my lousy cell phone camera. My dogs are incredibly soft and radiantly shiny and their teeth are beautiful. I'm sure if some kibble sponsored snobby show allowed mutts to show, my pups would have a fighting chance. 

When they were on corn-based kibble, they had dull coats, flakey skin, excessive shedding, bad teeth, overweight, and were itchy all the time. You tell me which one's better?


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## Postal (Jan 23, 2009)

rannmiller said:


> When they were on corn-based kibble, they had dull coats, flakey skin, excessive shedding, bad teeth, overweight, and were itchy all the time. You tell me which one's better?


I seem to hear this story a lot.. but amazing how the low quality kibble has NOTHING to do with it..

The guy's talking about cooking him stuff up on a george foreman grill, that he has favorites. If you're treating with those kind of treats, you're giving your dog HEALTHY protein. Ugh.

And you may "bait" your dog with marshmallows, but that's probably why your dog isn't the one sitting on the table next to a big trophy at the Westminster Show or whatever the hell that ridiculous cry for attention show is.

The picture you posted is nothing but a pic of two beagles running through brush, blurred out on camera with a beam of sunlight spotlighting down on his butt.

And I DID get real, I went RAW. Real. Not processed.


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## rannmiller (Jun 27, 2008)

Postal said:


> I seem to hear this story a lot.. but amazing how the low quality kibble has NOTHING to do with it..


Yeah, funny how that works out, huh?



Postal said:


> And you may "bait" your dog with marshmallows, but that's probably why your dog isn't the one sitting on the table next to a big trophy at the Westminster Show or whatever the hell that ridiculous cry for attention show is.


Bahahahaha!



Postal said:


> The picture you posted is nothing but a pic of two beagles running through brush, blurred out on camera with a beam of sunlight spotlighting down on his butt.


And so blurry it hurt my eyes. Those raw fed dogs were inside with no added lighting and still super shiny.


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## TJ99959 (Feb 4, 2009)

> And you may "bait" your dog with marshmallows, but that's probably why your dog isn't the one sitting on the table next to a big trophy at the *Westminster Show or whatever the hell that ridiculous cry for attention show is*.


Jeez, she is a 4 month old puppy for crying out loud. Her turn in the ring will come. She isn't even eligible to be shown for another 2 months.


and that last comment only shows your lack of an actual argument. now stay polite or drop it!

So far none of you have shown me anything but "pets" show me where any of them, or you, can actually do something.
http://i396.photobucket.com/albums/pp43/blunderpic/dogs/Picture057.jpg

Oh those 4 "show beagles" managed to get their bunny
Have any of you actually worked a dog in the field? Do you even know what their needs are?




> And I DID get real, I went RAW. Real. Not processed


you just let yourself get brainwashed, and fell for a line of nonsense

I'm coming to the conclusion that this site has nothing to do with nutrition, it is only about conning people into believing what you believe.


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## Postal (Jan 23, 2009)

TJ99959 said:


> and that last comment only shows your lack of an actual argument. now stay polite or drop it!


That WAS polite. You have a picture of a dog running on a treadmill.. take it outside and play fetch. It's fun and it uses more muscles.

And I'm done. Someone else can argue with your excuses and old timer beliefs. Times have changed since the 50's.. research is more detailed, efficient and accurate. More people are involved with everyday life agendas. Computers are smaller and faster, TVs are bigger and better, Internet is faster and more accessible, people realized that there was a need for the FDA because so many food companies went the cheapest route to make money off of the average American's need for food, and now people are starting to realize the same crap about dog food companies. This isn't a fad. It's not going to blow over. It's here, and it's growing with every person who opens their eyes and their brains to common sense of this world's evolution. 

You don't live off the cheap fast food, I'm sure.. especially if you're putting aside $100k for your malnourished pets-rather dogs, so that leads me to believe you don't agree with the unhealthy processed food that the mainstream American consumes daily, hence the obesity "epidemic" we are in, so why would it be any different for your dogs? Cheap processed kibble is JUST fine for them. Let me feed my dog, an animal that has about 8 ft of intestine and one stomach, the same corn cows chew up with FLAT teeth, swallow into one stomach, puke back up, chew some more, swallow into another stomach, and digest through two more stomachs just to make use of it. Smart. Makes a lot of sense, doesn't it?

Good luck with your show dogs. I hope you make them as happy as they make you by winning you trophies and an ego.


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## rockymtsweetie82 (Jul 24, 2008)

The difference between "show dogs" and pets are that our pets are well taken care of. You can brag that your "show dogs" are better than our pets but your argument is poor when you can't even provide them with the proper nutrition.


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## TJ99959 (Feb 4, 2009)

> You have a picture of a dog running on a treadmill.. take it outside and play fetch


ROFL Thanks for the laugh. Would you like to follow me around for a day?
Promice you, you would be in for quite an experence.

http://i396.photobucket.com/albums/pp43/blunderpic/dogs/Picture050.jpg

Dennis Voigt wrote a nice article about a days training with trial dogs. So I'll just give you a link to it instead of using a weeks worth of band width explaining the normal day here.

Retrievers ONLINE 1457 Heights Rd
A quarter says you haven't done that much with your dog in a lifetime, let alone in a day.


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## Postal (Jan 23, 2009)

You spend a $100k/yr on your dogs and you can't wager more than a quarter? 

Good talk.


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## rockymtsweetie82 (Jul 24, 2008)

TJ99959 said:


> ROFL Thanks for the laugh. Would you like to follow me around for a day?
> Promice you, you would be in for quite an experence.
> 
> http://i396.photobucket.com/albums/pp43/blunderpic/dogs/Picture050.jpg
> ...


Maybe we don't train our dogs the way you "train" yours. So we don't take our dogs out every day in the 'field' yet maybe we do other things with our pets. Take them on day long hikes with backpacks. Flirt poles, spring poles, agility, fetch, log pulling, and many many other exercises for the pets. Since our pets are PETS and not "show" dogs or training agility dogs, then I can assure you that we probably do not do as rigorous workouts as you and your beagles and retrievers may do, but we do get out and give our pets the exercise they need and crave. They are happy pets. They eat nutritious food and they get a good workout. They sleep on our beds and couches, they lounge in our laps and kiss our cats. They get love and attention and like most hunting/training beagles/retrievers/hounds, they don't get stuck in cages outside only to be released for training or hunting. They play with our children and our neighbors. They go on car rides. 

My point? They do get the kind of training. Just in different ways. I'll take that quarter now. :biggrin:


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## TJ99959 (Feb 4, 2009)

> You spend a $100k/yr on your dogs and you can't wager more than a quarter?




That time I did laugh :tongue:


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## RawFedDogs (Jun 16, 2008)

OK, let's all kiss and make up. I think tihs is thread has about worn itself out. :smile: :smile: :smile:


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