# Switched 2 weeks ago, a little confused.



## emric (Oct 24, 2011)

It's been 3 weeks since I switched my 72lb mixed breed over to raw. I started with chicken backs, skin/fat off. His stools were fine the first week. After a few days, he dropped about 1lb. He was always pretty skinny, but after starting raw, he dropped weight. I hate seeing him continue to lose weight. He's very active, btw.
At first he was getting 1 back in the AM and 1 in the PM. Then I upped it to 2 backs in the AM and 2 in the PM. He got a little bit of loose stool after that. 

Now he gets a variety of chicken. Some mornings I feed 6 chicken necks, or 1 leg quarter, etc. 

Most days his stool is ok, mostly firm, with some loose. He's only has 1 day of diarrhea. I've been reading on this site that I shouldn't move to a new protien until his stools are 100%.

Could my dog be allergic to chicken? He's always had a sensitive stomach. 

I have 40 lbs of Turkey necks that I would like to start.


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## JayJayisme (Aug 2, 2009)

Here's some quick suggestions.

1. Keep the fat/skin on the chicken. You only need to remove it if the dog is having a chronic loose stool issue. If not, leave it on. Lean meat on its own will starve your dog to death. It needs fat.

2. Try to get your bone:meat ratios a little more consistent in each meal. The bone-to-meat ratio in chicken necks is very different than it is with leg quarters. Much more bone per ounce in necks. 

Three weeks is still pretty early to introduce a new protein but try the above for a week or two and see how he does. If all is okay, you might try adding something like pork.

Please keep us in-the-loop on his progress.


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## DaneMama (Jun 27, 2008)

I agree with Jay, he needs more consistency. At this point I would gradually work him onto untrimmed leg quarters and once he's handling just those without issue then switch to the next protein. I'd go with turkey over pork because turkey is richer than chicken but pork is even more rich. You want to make gradual steps up in richness and if you skip a step, then it can be disastrous! Keep us posted


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## Grandiose (Apr 2, 2011)

Sounds to me like he is not getting enough food, especially if he is still losing weight. Very active dogs need more than couch potatoes do. Are you weighing what you are feeding him? I have a 45 pound dog that eats one chicken quarter a day, my 80 pound lazy Doberman eats 3 chicken quarters a day.... I agree with the above posters as well, he needs the fat content so leave those skins on!


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## emric (Oct 24, 2011)

Thanks for the advice. I'm almost out of quarters, but I have 30lbs on necks that I would like to use. I'm feeding him about 6 necks in the AM and 6 at night. Does this sound like too much? 

It's strange, one day he has normal poops, then today, 30 min ago it was liquid chunks(sorry)...

He goes to work with me Mon-Fri(I work at a doggie daycare), so he plays pretty much all day. I also do a lot of training with him, and are enrolled in obedience classes. 

For now, I will stick with necks, because I have so many, and see what happens in a week or two. 

When I read on here that you should wait until he has solid poops for a few weeks before adding another protein, does that mean absolutely no loose stool at all?

Sorry for all the questions, just want to figure out how to do this the right way!


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

i wonder if, when you were feeding backs, he just got too many pieces of leftover kidney.....when newly transitioned, sometimes all that bone, no fat and kidneys could cause diarrhea.....

how much did your backs weigh? because mine would vary in weight, depending on where i got them from ...and some of the backs i got had lots of meat left on them....


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## emric (Oct 24, 2011)

I took all the kidneys out of the backs..there might have been a few small pieces leftover. 

My backs weighed roughly 1/2lb each. 

I'm feeding about 5-6 necks twice a day. I will keep him on this for the next week or so, and see how his stools are.


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## Grandiose (Apr 2, 2011)

5-6 chicken necks? Have you weighed them? I'm sitting here picturing the chicken necks I was feeding last month, and at 5-6 necks, even my Corgi would be starving....

Active dogs need to eat more. I have one boy here who eats about 4 to 5% of his body weight in order to maintain his weight.

Loose stools can be caused by anything from changes in diet, to too much organ/rich meats with a raw diet, to too much or too little food, to large amounts of activity, to stress, to worms, to illness. Since you have been taking the kidneys off the backs, and you have been feeding necks which have no attached organs, then its probably not the organs. Is there something going on that could be stressing the dog out? New people or animals in your household or even the neighbors yards? Construction in the area? Car rides? Schedule changes? You would be suprised at what some dogs stress about, that you would never notice unless you are paying attention to their stools! Have you recently wormed the dog? In your OP, you mentioned that he is "very active"...how active is very active? And are his loose stools coming after a bout of activity?


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## emric (Oct 24, 2011)

I'm not sure how many pounds I should be feeding. At first I was aiming for 1 lb a day. I just weighed 6 necks, they equaled 1lb. There is nothing new in my dogs life. He doesn't seem stressed out. 
Like I said in my OP, he plays about 2-3hrs a day with other dogs, 5 days a week. On Weekends, we go for numerous walks/play frisbee. He gets much mental and physical stimulation.






Grandiose said:


> 5-6 chicken necks? Have you weighed them? I'm sitting here picturing the chicken necks I was feeding last month, and at 5-6 necks, even my Corgi would be starving....
> 
> Active dogs need to eat more. I have one boy here who eats about 4 to 5% of his body weight in order to maintain his weight.
> 
> Loose stools can be caused by anything from changes in diet, to too much organ/rich meats with a raw diet, to too much or too little food, to large amounts of activity, to stress, to worms, to illness. Since you have been taking the kidneys off the backs, and you have been feeding necks which have no attached organs, then its probably not the organs. Is there something going on that could be stressing the dog out? New people or animals in your household or even the neighbors yards? Construction in the area? Car rides? Schedule changes? You would be suprised at what some dogs stress about, that you would never notice unless you are paying attention to their stools! Have you recently wormed the dog? In your OP, you mentioned that he is "very active"...how active is very active? And are his loose stools coming after a bout of activity?


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

he's an active 72 lb dog.....at 2% of that body weight, we're talking about 21 ounces of food, give or take...

are the stools soft or liquid....?

because it seems as if he's getting way too much bone and not enough meat.

as long as he is not a gulper, i guess you can feed necks.....but this kid needs some meat, too, doncha think?


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## emric (Oct 24, 2011)

Most of his stools are half firm, half soft. Only maybe 2 times over the past 2 weeks have been straight liquid chunks. 

He is deff not a gulper. He does great on necks, chews them all up nicely. 

When you say he needs some meat, what kind do you mean?

I have 1 package of leg quarters, and about 30lbs of necks, and 30 lbs of turkey necks. 

I'm just not sure if I'm feeding him the right things. Any help is appreciated. 




magicre said:


> he's an active 72 lb dog.....at 2% of that body weight, we're talking about 21 ounces of food, give or take...
> 
> are the stools soft or liquid....?
> 
> ...


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

remember that bone is about 10% of the diet, so if you're going to feed those necks, let's say in the morning, he needs some meat without bone sometime, i think...

that his stools are not rock solid means he's new to this whole transition thing.....

personally, for a dog his size, i'd be buying whole chickens and breaking it down, feeding him from that. chicken necks are small for his size, but since you say he is careful with them, just don't leave the room when he eats them.

this is a dog who should be eating chicken to start, until you are comfortable with his stools. no treats. no organs. no other protein.

he should stay on chicken until he stabilises. plus, i'd be adding back the skin and fat, slowly.

and maybe others want chalk like stools that are hard, but as long as they are formed and can be picked up without difficulty and skid marks on the grass, then those stools are acceptable, at least, they are to me.

i'd buy a scale and feed him two meals of 10 oz per meal.....to start. do that for a week and let's see what happens.....but all treats must stop. anything dehydrated, any organs, any buscuits....

and i'd be asking myself about what i expect from the stools. i don't expect rock solid stools from my dogs....and chalky is too much bone....for me, as long as i can pick the stool up, i'm good.


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## emric (Oct 24, 2011)

He just went to the bathroom, solid poops, with quite a bit of liquid. I could pick up the stools perectly, but quite a bit of liquid came out in that.


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

just out of curiousity.....how are his anal glands?

next time he poops, can you take a pic?


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## emric (Oct 24, 2011)

His glands are fine.


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

does he express them himself or is it done manually?

the reason i'm asking seemingly picky questions is it's hard for me to grasp that a dog whose diet consists of mostly bone getting loose stools tells me something else is going on...

whether he's not getting enough food or there is a parasite or maybe giardia or his anal glands are compromised is something to check out.....

i personally think he needs more chicken, rather than more bone....but that's me.

i also think it would not hurt, given everything is copasetic, to take a fecal into the vet to check for giardia.....or something else in his flora and fauna.

i go over the list and he's healthy, bright and active. he has an appetitie. he's not lethargic. he eats. he is under no stress. he is active, yet he has solid stools with a lot of liquid. i'm not sure what a lot of liquid is to you, but a lot of liquid to me seems not right. 

OR 

he is going through transition and this is how his stools look. every dog is different.

i do believe he is getting too much bone and that is the only thing i can say for sure. i wish i could be of more help.


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## DaneMama (Jun 27, 2008)

Exercise can stimulate the intestines and create softer stool. Is he exercising before his potty breaks?


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## emric (Oct 24, 2011)

I've started to weigh his food, I'm aiming for a little under 1 lb at each meal. Do you think this is too much? This morning he had 9 chicken necks which equaled a little under 1 lb. 

Some days his poop is perfect, small nuggets with no liquid, then the next day might be firm stools with a lot of brown liquid. It's very random. 

He usually only goes poop twice a day. Once in the AM after he wakes up, and once in the afternoon, when we leave work, or when we get home, and sometimes that is soft. 

I don't have a camera, but I can try with my phone, then send it to my email. 

What parts of the chicken can I feed that is more meat than bone?
My local supermarket has high prices on quarters, which is what I have been feeding, but I only have 4 left. I have tons of necks, and a few backs. I order from Omas Pride every 3 weeks, so the next order I can see what else they have.


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## emric (Oct 24, 2011)

I just looked at the weekly ad for my store, ALL fresh chicken is 40%off. They had that sale a few weeks ago, and I stocked up on leg quarters. Should I buy a lot of those?

Seems like if I buy whole chickens, it would be more expensive than buying quarters or something else like that.


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

i think a pound of food is maybe too little and i especially think that his total food for the day consists of nine chicken necks is way too much bone.

he needs both. 

in the beginning, i can see keeping him on mostly bony meals...but it's been three weeks.

lacking an explanation for his stools and their consistency.....and given that he seems healthy and active and nothing strikes you as being 'off' or 'wrong', i think the stools will adjust themselves over time.

and given you seem to have a very healthy active dog, with nothing going on health wise....

i'm going to go out on a limb and say perhaps he needs two meals a day....

one bony and one boneless....

i would, as jay suggested slowly add back in the fat and skin for the chicken.

i would stop feeding a pound or so of chicken necks. that is way too much bone for a dog.

i would give him chicken quarters or i would break down a chicken. it's balance over time.

i would give that at least two weeks to see how his stools are. if they get too loose, you can always add in bone.

right now, he's getting very little nutrition in the way of protein...

i'd be feeding him quarters at this point, slowly but surely adding back in the skin and fat.....or whole chickens broken down and weighed.....easiest to just cut the chicken four ways....or feed him thighs and quarters.....and breasts, bone in.

if he stays the way he is or gets even better stools, then you can move on in two weeks or so to another protein.

i know, in the beginning, many of us start with really bony meals to get our dogs used to eating raw and let their digestive systems transition....give their mouths, gums, tongues, jaws, teeth, necks, a chance to learn how to break bone down.....

your dog weighs 72 lbs.....2% of that is 23 oz per day......he has not been getting even close to that.

so a pound is just not enough.....but, having said that, i would slowly, very slowly work up to what he should be getting and i would do it over two meals a day.....once he gets used to eating the right amount and getting bone + boneless, which can take a few more weeks, then you can think about another protein, but only then.

there is a reason we go so slowly with our dogs...and that is to allow them to adjust.....


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## emric (Oct 24, 2011)

Thanks so much for all your help.
I'm headed to the store in a bit to pick up as many leg quarters as I can, and will feed them for 2 weeks, slowly adding in fat. I do feed him 2 meals a day. 

I think I'm going to fed him 1 quarter in the AM and 1 in the PM. How does this sound?? The leg quarters are almost 1lb each. 

Why is he getting little nutrition with necks? Is that because too much bone? 

Are thighs roughly the same meat/bone content?


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

i think since he's only been getting about a pound a day, i would feed a quarter in the am and a drumstick in the pm....

that should give you roughly a pound and a half, if my memory serves. i wouldn't feed him 23 oz just yet, since you've only been giving him a pound...

i would increase amount.....you can cut from the quarters for his second meal......but i'd increase slowly. 

too much food can also affect digestion and going from a pound to two pounds in a day, well, going slowly has always worked best for me. and, when i didn't, oy vey.

necks are very high in bone content....much higher than a leg quarter. that's why he's not getting balanced nutrition..and it's all about the balance.

i know others have the ratio of bone to meat in chicken parts. i don't remember where i put them, sorry.

but you can bet there is more bone in a neck than there is in a thigh, since the thigh is covered with skin and meat and the neck has very little meat. the ratio of bone to meat is higher in a neck.

you can use a thigh for the second meal and a quarter for the first.

since he can eat necks, give him a quarter in the a.m. and give him a drumstick in the pm.

that should give you over a pound, but not too much over a pound. 

if he does well, then you can increase the skin and fat back into his diet and then you can start increasing the amounts.....

like a quarter in the am and a drumstick in the pm

and then a quarter in the am and a quarter in the pm.

i would make sure he's good for at least a week before adding or increasing. does that sound okay to you?


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## Hillswei (Dec 5, 2011)

Found this link with info on bone percentages which might help
http://dogfoodchat.com/forum/raw-feeding/5112-meat-bone-ration-what-numbers-3.html


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