# Please help me to understand protein/fat/carb requirements for my dogs.



## mytega (Jul 31, 2012)

Hi everyone. I did an intro thread a while back but have only lurked since then. I've been reading a lot of old threads, but I'd like to discuss specifics for my dogs.

I have three dogs, all close to 40 lb and mixed breeds. Lexi is 10 y/o and is far from acting old. Ike is a 7.5 y/o beagle mix with hypothyroidism. He is very hard to keep at a good weight and seems always hungry. Claire is a 3.5 y/o border collie/pointer mix. She is high energy and has a slight frame. They can tolerate any protein and are not picky eaters. They aren’t usually very active; an hour walk or playing in the yard, but a few times a month go on longer hikes and in the summer have a few weeks of lots of running and swimming.

They have previously been on TOTW High Prairie, Go! Natural Grain Free Endurance, Hi-Tek Naturals Lamb & Sweet Potato, and now are eating Orijen Adult. I had thought Orijen was the best of the best, but now I’m starting to question that. It is expensive, still hard to find, and the new formula (post kitchen fire) now is a smaller bag with a larger price tag. If it isn’t the best food, then I’m paying way too much.

My real question pertains more to the daily requirements of my dogs. I think I have a good handle on ingredients and I have picked foods with good, so far grain free, ingredients. I’d then look at calories and feed my dogs a set number of calories per day. If I changed food, I recalculated the volume to feed the same calories. If they were more active, I would adjust the calories. 

What I haven’t paid much attention to is the protein/fat/carb content of each food. I know there has been a wide range of the analysis in the foods I’ve previously fed. 

Is there a range or limit for each component I should target for my dogs? 

I’m thinking of switching to Dr. Tim’s Pursuit. I will be adding grains for the first time, but I think these are good grains. This formula seems to be marketed for a more active dog though. Is that just marketing? It is less protein than they are currently getting with Orijen. Dr. Tim’s has a grain free that says it is all life stages, but has more protein than Pursuit. Is fat more important to worry about than protein? If anything, I’d think less carbs is better, but then something else has to be a higher percentage.

I got samples of Annamaet before, but couldn’t find a place to buy it. Now it appears I can get that from Chewy’s. 

I should also add that raw just isn’t possible. I don’t live a lifestyle for it and my husband would not be on-board.

Basically, I just have pets. I buy online from multiple stores so I can probably find any food. Thanks for reading this and for any thoughts.


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## monster'sdad (Jul 29, 2012)

In adult dogs protein is used for muscle repair and other metabolic processes. Decades have study has shown that 26% is about the ideal level for house pets, as well as sporting dogs. Over 30% there tends to be very little benefit unless the dog is involved in extreme activities, which doesn't seem to be the case here. High protein like in Orijen for house pets is not needed and just marketing bull. I have seen some of the best sporting dogs in the country eat foods with 24% protein that run with horses in 90 degree heat in field trial competition. I have also seen those dog pull steel chains multiples of their body weight in training for those events. They also get "roaded" next to Quads.

I use Pursuit and you can use that if you are good at saying NO!!!!!! and diligent about portion control. With the range of ages Pursuit would be great. I have a friend with a 15 year old, 90lb hound mix on Pursuit and she looks amazing on 3 cups.

Personally, I think calories from carbs should be around 30% of calories unless you have an overweight dog or older dog. Then more from carbs and less from fat.

If you prefer feeding more, then Dr. Tim's Kinesis, Annamaet Encore/Extra, Precise Chicken & Rice, Canidae Chicken & Rice, etc are all great.

I would try Pursuit because it is a great value on-line, Annamaet is not a good value on-line like it is in the stores.

Just watch their weight but I think they will do very well on Pursuit. Start a 40lb dog at 1.5 cups per day of Pursuit and see how their weight is after 1 week. Then adjust.


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## Felix (Oct 9, 2012)

mytega said:


> Hi everyone. I did an intro thread a while back but have only lurked since then. I've been reading a lot of old threads, but I'd like to discuss specifics for my dogs.
> 
> I have three dogs, all close to 40 lb and mixed breeds. Lexi is 10 y/o and is far from acting old. Ike is a 7.5 y/o beagle mix with *hypo*thyroidism. He is very hard to keep at a good weight and seems always hungry. Claire is a 3.5 y/o border collie/pointer mix. She is high energy and has a slight frame. They can tolerate any protein and are not picky eaters. They aren’t usually very active; an hour walk or playing in the yard, but a few times a month go on longer hikes and in the summer have a few weeks of lots of running and swimming.
> 
> ...


The symptoms sound like your dog has HYPERthyroid (an overproduction of the thyroid gland). Hypo is when they don't make enough. Is he on meds?


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## mytega (Jul 31, 2012)

Felix said:


> The symptoms sound like your dog has HYPERthyroid (an overproduction of the thyroid gland). Hypo is when they don't make enough. Is he on meds?


I wasn't clear when I said he is hard to keep at a good weight. He tends to be overweight and keeping his weight down is difficult. He takes Soloxine twice a day. He's a beagle mix too, so I'm battling his tendency to be overweight on two fronts. He is a good weight now, but it takes some work. Thanks for pointing this out so I could be more clear.


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## mytega (Jul 31, 2012)

monster'sdad, thank you for the detailed reply. I'm encouraged that you have seen good results with Pursuit. I had originally looked into Annamaet because they are based in PA, as am I, but that made no difference to the availability. I agree that it is more expensive compared to Dr. Tim's online.

I am careful about portion control. My dogs have multiple sets of measuring cups and I'm lucky if I have one full set myself! I know the calories they should eat in a day and can start a new food at the same calorie count.

Last night I started to think about Hi-tek Naturals grain free again. That food has potato and peas but no grain. Are good grains better than potato and peas? Peas contribute to the total protein, right? Significantly? The food is lamb meal, sweet potato, potato and peas as the first ingredients. Do the potatoes contribute to the total protein? I've always thought of them as carbs, but perhaps not 100%.

In the same line of thinking then, Pursuit does not have potatoes or peas. So all of the protein is coming from a meat source (chicken & fish)? I just spotted egg in each food, so there is some protein. I guess I'm asking if Dr. Tim's Pursuit is 30% protein from meat and Hi-tek is 31% protein from meat and peas. 

Thanks again.


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## mytega (Jul 31, 2012)

Felix said:


> The symptoms sound like your dog has HYPERthyroid (an overproduction of the thyroid gland). Hypo is when they don't make enough. Is he on meds?


Hmn, I replied earlier and it didn't show up. Anyway, Felix I wasn't clear when I said Ike is hard to keep at a good weight. He tends to be overweight so it is hard to keep his weight down. Yes, he takes soloxine twice a day. He is also a beagle mix and as a breed I've always thought they have a tendency to be overweight. So I'm fighting his weight on two fronts. He is at a good weight, but will never look, um, athletic, let's say.


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## mytega (Jul 31, 2012)

Felix, I've tried twice now to reply to your comment but it doesn't show up. (help!) 

I wasn't clear before when I said Ike is hard to keep at a good weight. He tends to be overweight and keeping his weight down is difficult. He is on meds and takes soloxine twice a day. He is also a beagle mix and I've always thought beagles as a breed have a tendency to be overweight. So I've fighting it on two fronts. He is at a good weight, but will never look, let's say, athletic.


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## monster'sdad (Jul 29, 2012)

mytega said:


> monster'sdad, thank you for the detailed reply. I'm encouraged that you have seen good results with Pursuit. I had originally looked into Annamaet because they are based in PA, as am I, but that made no difference to the availability. I agree that it is more expensive compared to Dr. Tim's online.
> 
> I am careful about portion control. My dogs have multiple sets of measuring cups and I'm lucky if I have one full set myself! I know the calories they should eat in a day and can start a new food at the same calorie count.
> 
> ...


The 30% in Pursuit is total protein. The amount from animal sources is about 90% of that number. The rest comes from rice and oats. Oats are pretty high in protein for grains. All the Dr. Tim's foods have several protein sources scattered about the label, but it all adds up. The Hi-Tek food will be a bit lower in animal proteins because peas have more protein than rice or oats. And yes potatoes do have protein but it is low.

That looks like good food as well.


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## mytega (Jul 31, 2012)

Thanks again. Part of my problem is I think too black and white. In reality there will be many options equally good and I just have to pick and move on. I keep revisiting my kibble spreadsheet, yes spreadsheet, but I don't have to decide what I'm feeding is "bad" just because I'm still learning. I thought I would be set once I started Orijen but it seems it isn't a good value as far as what I get for what I'm paying. It is good to have options, I just need to remember my guys aren't hard to take care of. 

Also, I should mention that I think I'm still too new to the forum for my posts to show up without mod approval. I've tried to respond to Felix a few times, but it hasn't shown up yet.

I should have been more clear about Ike's weight. He tends to be overweight and keeping his weight down can be difficult. He is on meds and takes soloxine twice a day. He is a beagle mix and I've always thought beagles as a breed have a tendency towards being overweight. So I'm fighting his weight on two fronts. He is at a good weight, he just isn't, shall I say, athletic in appearance.


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## mytega (Jul 31, 2012)

Thanks again. Part of my problem is I think too black and white. In reality there will be many options equally good and I just have to pick and move on. I keep revisiting my kibble spreadsheet, yes spreadsheet, but I don't have to decide what I'm feeding is "bad" just because I'm still learning. I thought I would be set once I started Orijen but it seems it isn't a good value as far as what I get for what I'm paying. It is good to have options, I just need to remember my guys aren't hard to take care of. 

Also, I should mention that I think I'm still too new to the forum for my posts to show up without mod approval. I've tried to respond to Felix a few times, but it hasn't shown up yet.

I should have been more clear about Ike's weight. He tends to be overweight and keeping his weight down can be difficult. He is on meds and takes soloxine twice a day. He is a beagle mix and I've always thought beagles as a breed have a tendency towards being overweight. So I'm fighting his weight on two fronts. He is at a good weight, he just isn't, shall I say, athletic in appearance.


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## mytega (Jul 31, 2012)

monster'sdad, I have another question. You mentioned above that Pursuit is 90% animal protein. I also was reading through old threads and you mentioned that Dr. Tim's has published the actual percentages of their ingredients. Do you have that data? Or could you point me to where it is? Thanks.

I'm still mulling this over. I have a bag and a half of Orijen left, so I have a little bit of time.


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## monster'sdad (Jul 29, 2012)

mytega said:


> monster'sdad, I have another question. You mentioned above that Pursuit is 90% animal protein. I also was reading through old threads and you mentioned that Dr. Tim's has published the actual percentages of their ingredients. Do you have that data? Or could you point me to where it is? Thanks.
> 
> I'm still mulling this over. I have a bag and a half of Orijen left, so I have a little bit of time.



You should ask him. He advertises that the average for all his formulas is 87%. So if you add up Kinesis, Pursuit, Kinesis GF & Momentum and divide by 4 it is 87%. He has said on FB that Pursuit is about 90% and Momentume is 94%.

Email him.


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## DaViking (Sep 27, 2011)

mytega said:


> monster'sdad, I have another question. You mentioned above that Pursuit is 90% animal protein. I also was reading through old threads and you mentioned that Dr. Tim's has published the actual percentages of their ingredients. Do you have that data? Or could you point me to where it is? Thanks.
> 
> I'm still mulling this over. I have a bag and a half of Orijen left, so I have a little bit of time.


It was published on their Facebook page. https://www.facebook.com/DrTimsPetFood


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## mytega (Jul 31, 2012)

Thank you. I'll have to look through the facebook history. I probably will email as well. Pretty neat to have access to the maker of a food.


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## mytega (Jul 31, 2012)

I emailed with Dr. Tim and he recommended the Kinesis All Life Stages for my crew. Having 4 dogs older than 7 years old (my dad feeds whatever I feed, and he has 2), I think keeping the fat content down is a good idea, compared to the Pursuit. He also told me that the Pursuit formula is 89% animal source protein and Kinesis is 84%. I ordered a bag and I'll see how it goes. I'm feeling good about the decision.


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## RawPitbulls (Feb 7, 2013)

Carb requirement = 0 Carbs are useless to dogs.


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## PDXdogmom (Jun 30, 2010)

Hope the Kinesis formula works for your dogs. I've heard a number of people being pretty happy with it.

And as far as carbs, they are obviously necessary to bind kibble together. Looking at how well a kibble is formulated and the track record of the company counts for a lot.


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## brindle (Mar 14, 2013)

RawPitbulls said:


> Carb requirement = 0 Carbs are useless to dogs.


Perhaps they aren't? Do you have any references (other then a bias raw feeding site)?


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## SaharaNight Boxers (Jun 28, 2011)

brindle said:


> Perhaps they aren't? Do you have any references (other then a bias raw feeding site)?


I don't have it on hand, but there was a study done on sled dogs and they found that having enough fat and protein eliminated the need for carbs.


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## brindle (Mar 14, 2013)

SaharaNight Boxers said:


> I don't have it on hand, but there was a study done on sled dogs and they found that having enough fat and protein eliminated the need for carbs.


I could find two opposing studies RIGHT NOW about the downside/negatives OR the upside/positives to MANY things on the Internet. Example: marijuana. 
Should I believe everything I hear because of the simple fact that I heard it? Or should I go by anecdotes that I have experienced in my daily life? I'll go by what I know and trust. If it fails me I will find an alternative...
I'm almost certain that most sled teams use a raw/kibble combo. Never heard of a carb-less kibble..?
Wasn't there also a study done stating that dogs can handle carbs much better then their wolf relative, that it may be proof (or the beginning) that dogs are on a divided evolutionary path?


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## PDXdogmom (Jun 30, 2010)

brindle said:


> I could find two opposing studies RIGHT NOW about the downside/negatives OR the upside/positives to MANY things on the Internet. Example: marijuana.
> Should I believe everything I hear because of the simple fact that I heard it? Or should I go by anecdotes that I have experienced in my daily life? I'll go by what I know and trust. If it fails me I will find an alternative...
> *I'm almost certain that most sled teams use a raw/kibble combo. Never heard of a carb-less kibble..?*
> Wasn't there also a study done stating that dogs can handle carbs much better then their wolf relative, that it may be proof (or the beginning) that dogs are on a divided evolutionary path?


Exactly. I've been reading a number of interesting blogs and web sites lately about sled dog feeding - primarily because I've started feeding Annamaet, whose owner does sled-dog racing. And yes, kibble is the base; then it's supplemented often with raw chicken and extra fat.


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## mytega (Jul 31, 2012)

One problem I face is that my dogs are hungry, one acts desperately hungry. He doesn't get a lot of calories, so I actually appreciate a kibble with a low calorie count per volume so that he can eat more volume. I then get wrapped up in the thinking that I'm only giving him filler, be it in the kibble or extra veggies, but if it makes him happier and more content, it seems like there is no harm in it.


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## 1605 (May 27, 2009)

RawPitbulls said:


> Carb requirement = 0 Carbs are useless to dogs.


From where are you getting this information? Mammals get their energy from burning carbs.


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## Celt (Dec 27, 2010)

I have no scientific proof, just my own life experiences. That being said, I believe that dogs have an easier time keeping weight off with lower carbs diet over lower fat but this is when actual meat is added into the diet. I think meat is digested more fully and is less likely to be stored than carbs. As far as dogs needing carbs (as some studies, I've read have stated, a dog can adapt to using carbs), it is my belief that the harder a dog works the more the need for carbs can be, simply from the fact carbs are "longer lasting". If I had a "easy keeper", I would feed a lean meat with kibble as a "topper". So, a meal would be a trimmed chicken breast(if bone in then raw, otherwise doesn't matter) with a quarter of the amount of kibble normally fed. If you want kibble only, I would go with a lower calorie food in the smallest amount possible to keep healthy with some filler type topper to fill the pups stomache. I've heard of using green beans and I know a friend who used cooked potato skins (these are the peels only boiled in water).


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## SaharaNight Boxers (Jun 28, 2011)

brindle said:


> I could find two opposing studies RIGHT NOW about the downside/negatives OR the upside/positives to MANY things on the Internet. Example: marijuana.
> Should I believe everything I hear because of the simple fact that I heard it? Or should I go by anecdotes that I have experienced in my daily life? I'll go by what I know and trust. If it fails me I will find an alternative...
> I'm almost certain that most sled teams use a raw/kibble combo. Never heard of a carb-less kibble..?
> Wasn't there also a study done stating that dogs can handle carbs much better then their wolf relative, that it may be proof (or the beginning) that dogs are on a divided evolutionary path?


Ok...it was a real study, not just some random off the Internet thing. If I had saved it I would link to it. 

Obviously you can't have a carbless kibble because it wouldn't bind. I don't really see how that makes a point though?

The only thing that study found was that dogs had more genes to potentially use carbs better. They can't even say if the genes are functional at this point.


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## DaViking (Sep 27, 2011)

SaharaNight Boxers said:


> Ok...it was a real study, not just some random off the Internet thing. If I had saved it I would link to it.
> 
> Obviously you can't have a carbless kibble because it wouldn't bind. I don't really see how that makes a point though?
> 
> The only thing that study found was that dogs had more genes to potentially use carbs better. They can't even say if the genes are functional at this point.


That was to break down raw plant matter. Nothing of this have any bearing on geletanized starch.


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## brindle (Mar 14, 2013)

SaharaNight Boxers said:


> Ok...it was a real study, not just some random off the Internet thing. If I had saved it I would link to it.
> 
> Obviously you can't have a carbless kibble because it wouldn't bind. I don't really see how that makes a point though?
> 
> The only thing that study found was that dogs had more genes to potentially use carbs better. They can't even say if the genes are functional at this point.


The studies I was referring to also were not "just some random off the Internet thing". You have not provided me with a link so I cannot really comment on it...
You were saying that you had discovered a study (that we have yet to see) that sled dogs utilize nutrition from fat/meat/bone just as well as kibble (or better, depending on what the study said). My point was that ALL of the sled teams that I have ever met or heard of, have used either straight kibble or a kibble raw mix (particlarly during races). I haven't yet come across one team that has used ONLY raw (not to say there aren't any, just pointing out the prevalence of kibble useage). So-- if most teams use kibble as a base or entirely, then these dogs seem to be utilizing carbs VERY well considering their performance ability. 
Whether dogs DO or DO NOT have the ability to use these "extra genes" is moot. The fact that these extra genes are there at all means that dogs are not genetically identical (or even as similar) to wolves as many seem to believe. Meaning-- when people feed them like they are wolves (whether out of a kibble bag or with only meat/bones/organs), it is a debatable decision... 
That being said I do feed raw toppers and some raw meaty bones (as well as some canned, some fish, some oils, the odd veggie) but I rely heavily on kibble as her base food.


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## SaharaNight Boxers (Jun 28, 2011)

brindle said:


> The studies I was referring to also were not "just some random off the Internet thing". You have not provided me with a link so I cannot really comment on it...
> You were saying that you had discovered a study (that we have yet to see) that sled dogs utilize nutrition from fat/meat/bone just as well as kibble (or better, depending on what the study said). My point was that ALL of the sled teams that I have ever met or heard of, have used either straight kibble or a kibble raw mix (particlarly during races). I haven't yet come across one team that has used ONLY raw (not to say there aren't any, just pointing out the prevalence of kibble useage). So-- if most teams use kibble as a base or entirely, then these dogs seem to be utilizing carbs VERY well considering their performance ability.
> Whether dogs DO or DO NOT have the ability to use these "extra genes" is moot. The fact that these extra genes are there at all means that dogs are not genetically identical (or even as similar) to wolves as many seem to believe. Meaning-- when people feed them like they are wolves (whether out of a kibble bag or with only meat/bones/organs), it is a debatable decision...
> That being said I do feed raw toppers and some raw meaty bones (as well as some canned, some fish, some oils, the odd veggie) but I rely heavily on kibble as her base food.


Do you think you could do the Iditarod while feeding raw? I'd probably say not. It doesn't surprise me they don't feed 100% raw. Along with how they do, utilizing carbs or not, these dogs are bred with amazing stamina and speed behind them for generations. Genetics goes much, much farther than food in my opinion. And I think almost any animal can utilize anything to a degree once it's been ground beyond recognition. But, how man we even prove they're utilizing the carbs? What if it goes out with the waste? We can't really tell. 

I know dogs aren't genetically identical to wolves. But how does that dictate what we should feed? A hamster and a guinea pig aren't genetically identical an yet they basically eat the same thing. If one of these have less carb digesting genes does that mean we should give it meat sometimes? I don't think it's a moot point at all. This is an exaggeration but, if I have a gene to fly but it's not functional does that mean I should still jump off a cliff and try to fly because I have the gene? Or less of an exaggeration, if I have a gene to tolerate poison, but it's not functional should I still drink the poison?

I'm not arguing to feed carbs or not, that's up to whoever, but I do believe dogs and wolves can be perfectly fine and do fantastically without carbs.


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## SaharaNight Boxers (Jun 28, 2011)

And the gist of the study was that if you provide adequate amounts of protein and fat in the diet it can replace the need for carbs. If I could find it again I would link it, but I don't have time to hunt high and low for it.


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## DaViking (Sep 27, 2011)

SaharaNight Boxers said:


> But, how man we even prove they're utilizing the carbs? What if it goes out with the waste? We can't really tell.


Yes we can, it's fundamental research that's been available since the dawn of commercial pet food and the Egyptians figured it out 12,000 years ago when they fed pelleted wheat to their beloved dogs.


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## Celt (Dec 27, 2010)

More surprising were genes for digesting starch. Dogs had four to 30 copies of the gene for amylase, a protein that starts the breakdown of starch in the intestine. Wolves have only two copies, one on each chromosome. As a result, that gene was 28-fold more active in dogs, the researchers found. More copies means more protein, and test-tube studies indicate that dogs should be fivefold better than wolves at digesting starch, the chief nutrient in agricultural grains such as wheat and rice. The number of copies of this gene also varies in people: Those eating high carbohydrate diets -- such as the Japanese and European Americans -- have more copies than people with starch-poor diets, such as the Mbuti in Africa. "We have adapted in a very similar way to the dramatic changes that happened when agriculture was developed," Axelsson says.
This is a quote from the study about these genes. The underlined part is talking about people and how the gene varies between them. Does this mean that people from one region are not similar to those from other areas? The number of these genes are influenced by dietary needs. Beings eating a carb "heavy" diet will develop more so as to be able to thrive and not just struggle to survive on this diet. So that means, dogs will be better off on a carb "heavy" diet than a wolf will. So, imo, that means an owner should feed what their dog does the best on and needs to be aware of the options available to them so that they can feed the best for their pup.


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## herl (Oct 11, 2012)

mytega - Annamaet makes a lean kibble with 30% protein-8% fat. I have been using Dr. Tim's Pursuit for about 5weeks now. My dogs are all active, but not endurance athletes by any stretch. They are all doing well on Pursuit, nice activity levels & energy, nice coats, good poo. Checks all the important boxes, LOL. Also, since you brought up Hi Tek, here is a link to info on their site: Hi-Tek Rations: Nutrition. Here is the link to their nutrition page, which I also found helpful. Hi-Tek Rations: Nutrition. I thought it was interesting that they have a grain free fish with 32/14. I don't recall where the food is produced, but I was told it was sold primarily in feed stores.


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## brindle (Mar 14, 2013)

SaharaNight Boxers said:


> Do you think you could do the Iditarod while feeding raw? I'd probably say not. It doesn't surprise me they don't feed 100% raw. Along with how they do, utilizing carbs or not, these dogs are bred with amazing stamina and speed behind them for generations. Genetics goes much, much farther than food in my opinion. And I think almost any animal can utilize anything to a degree once it's been ground beyond recognition. But, how man we even prove they're utilizing the carbs? What if it goes out with the waste? We can't really tell.
> 
> *I see what you are saying. It would be fairly impractical to lug however many pounds of meat during a race... still, even in off season they still feed kibble/raw mixture. Never heard of many top players feeding 100% raw but that is just me. Doesn't mean it doesn't happen.
> Wouldn't the beginnings of an ability to utilize different food sources indicate an evolutionary change. I guess we won't know while we exist in this generation lol.
> ...


My responses in bold


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