# Calling all NON-Vaxers



## baxtersmom (Jun 11, 2011)

Well it's time for Baxter to go to the vet again in a couple of weeks and we were thinking of possibly just getting distemper+parvo. 

Baxter has ben vaccinated with a DHPP from the breeder at 8w old, which I have read is sketchy due to maternal antibodies cancelling out the vaccine. Our holistic vet recommends boosting at 16 weeks with a DT shot and then he's good to go for life. I am trying to learn more about parvo and I'm having difficulty finding info like 

When is parvo most serious in puppies? Incidence of Parvo in Ontario? Hopefully someone can help me get the info I'm looking for


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## BrownieM (Aug 30, 2010)

Where do you live? By DT shot, do you mean a one way Distemper shot? From what I understand this does not exist anymore - it is now paired with Parvo (DPV) or Hepatitis or in larger cocktails.


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## chowder (Sep 7, 2008)

I just went thru Rocky's records since he went to the vets this week. He got his last puppy DHPP at 16 weeks. 

I don't know how parvo is now that there are vaccines for it. I was working for vets when parvo was first discovered and there was no vaccines for it. It made the rounds thru all the animal hospitals and it was absolutely horrible having to take care of those poor puppies. We were seeing several cases a week at the time. Since I had seen so much of it, I made sure that Rocky got his final puppy booster. 

He was also required to have that final booster to enroll in puppy kindergarten. 

Here is a link to Dr. Jean Dodds recommended vaccination schedule and the length of immunity offered by the vaccines 

Vaccination Schedule Recommendations For Dogs


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## baxtersmom (Jun 11, 2011)

Sorry... I'm confusing my human vaccine research with animal LOL I meant DPV (distemper and parvo)


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## CorgiPaws (Mar 31, 2009)

I do three rounds of vaccines as a puppy, and then they are done for life. Now, I do have to keep up with Rabies every 3 years which doesn't make me happy, but because of the number of dogs I have (7) living at my house, if I don't keep them all utd, I can get in trouble.


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## werecatrising (Oct 15, 2010)

Do you know how recent the info in that Dr Dodds sheet is? It says there are only 12 cases of lepto diagnosed annually in California.The hospiatl I work at had 3 cases last year. Seems like 12 state wide is a little low.


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## BrownieM (Aug 30, 2010)

Not sure about how recent that data is. I will never vaccinate my dogs for Lepto, though.


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## RiverRun (Jun 29, 2011)

This is completely my own choice and opinion, but I do not vaccinate my animals for anything. I have many young dogs and cats that have never seen a needle. Those same dogs would go to work with my on a daily basis when they were pups(I work at a vet) and they never once caught anything. Now, I am cautious of when I hear about a parvo case when the pups are real young, but unless there is a true threat, I see no reason to vaccinate. I believe in keeping their immune system strong, so if they were to contract any disease, their body could fight it off.
Now I have been criticised severely for the way I raise my dogs, by public and employers/employees alike. My defense is the health of my dogs. The ones raised holistically have zero problems while the ones who were raised with traditional methods suffer from irreversible damage; even though their healthier lifestyle now has made a dramatic change.


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## BrownieM (Aug 30, 2010)

RiverRun said:


> This is completely my own choice and opinion, but I do not vaccinate my animals for anything. I have many young dogs and cats that have never seen a needle. Those same dogs would go to work with my on a daily basis when they were pups(I work at a vet) and they never once caught anything. Now, I am cautious of when I hear about a parvo case when the pups are real young, but unless there is a true threat, I see no reason to vaccinate. I believe in keeping their immune system strong, so if they were to contract any disease, their body could fight it off.
> Now I have been criticised severely for the way I raise my dogs, by public and employers/employees alike. My defense is the health of my dogs. The ones raised holistically have zero problems while the ones who were raised with traditional methods suffer from irreversible damage; even though their healthier lifestyle now has made a dramatic change.


Though, you do have to consider that the fact that vaccinations exist is the reason you are even able to do this. :smile:


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## Caty M (Aug 13, 2010)

I do zero vaccinations as well. Bishop my one year old sheltie was vaccinated at 8 weeks with DHLPP and that was it.. Tess my 14ish week Italian greyhound has never been vaccinated. 

Dogs of all ages can GET the parvovirus, but it's typically only symptomatic in young puppies. The youngest ones (under 10 weeks) are generally the ones you hear about dying. In the CNRS (Canadian Natural Rearing Support group) many breeders told me once the dog is past 10 weeks there aren't issues although the one shot your dog did get can suppress the immune system.

Do you feed your dog raw? Feeding the best diet can support and help the immune system. Grassfed is best though if not possible, feed a lot of oily fish. O3s can do wonders!


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## Caty M (Aug 13, 2010)

BrownieM said:


> Though, you do have to consider that the fact that vaccinations exist is the reason you are even able to do this. :smile:


Not necessarily. The rate of parvovirus is still the same in the environment. It's not like smallpox which was eradicated.. parvo is able to survive in the soil etc.. which means likely it will NEVER be eradicated. Vaccination of parvo doesn't help that. Vaccinated dogs can and do still shed the virus in their stool. 

I bet that if you took 100k dogs in 1970 and 100k dogs now, all unvaccinated, the same percentage would still contract parvo, simply because the virus is still as rampant in the environment as ever.


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## RiverRun (Jun 29, 2011)

bishopthesheltie said:


> Not necessarily. The rate of parvovirus is still the same in the environment. It's not like smallpox which was eradicated.. parvo is able to survive in the soil etc.. which means likely it will NEVER be eradicated. Vaccination of parvo doesn't help that. Vaccinated dogs can and do still shed the virus in their stool.
> 
> I bet that if you took 100k dogs in 1970 and 100k dogs now, all unvaccinated, the same percentage would still contract parvo, simply because the virus is still as rampant in the environment as ever.


 I agree. Also, in the last two years at work we have had many, many parvo cases. The majority of them had been vaccinated at least twice for parvo, if not more. Only a small percent, who were sick strays, had not been vaccinated.


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## BrownieM (Aug 30, 2010)

bishopthesheltie said:


> Not necessarily. The rate of parvovirus is still the same in the environment. It's not like smallpox which was eradicated.. parvo is able to survive in the soil etc.. which means likely it will NEVER be eradicated. Vaccination of parvo doesn't help that. Vaccinated dogs can and do still shed the virus in their stool.
> 
> I bet that if you took 100k dogs in 1970 and 100k dogs now, all unvaccinated, the same percentage would still contract parvo, simply because the virus is still as rampant in the environment as ever.


I am not simply speaking of parvo.


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## baxtersmom (Jun 11, 2011)

bishopthesheltie said:


> Do you feed your dog raw? Feeding the best diet can support and help the immune system. Grassfed is best though if not possible, feed a lot of oily fish. O3s can do wonders!


He is on a raw diet, but we only just started 10 days ago so he's only on chicken wings/drums so far. We don't buy factory farmed meat for health and ethical reasons so we are fortunate in that all Baxter's chicken is locally raised and pastured. Same with the other meat we will be adding to his diet. I also use Nordic Naturals fish oil supplement for my children, so I could certainly share their bottle with Baxter


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## Porphyria (Jul 13, 2011)

My dog had all of his puppy vaccines, and now I will wait a few years and then start having the vet run titers to see if he needs any additional boost. I definitely believe pets are over-vaccinated and I don't want that for my dog. But I also take him to dog parks, day care, and just out and about to dog friendly places so I don't want to take any chances with disease either. My limited vaccine approach works for me, and is what I feel most comfortable with.


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## Liz (Sep 27, 2010)

I do not vaccinate my personal dogs. I don't recommend vaccines but if someone who buys my pups wants to vaccinate I do ask that they do as few vaccinations as possible with single or two disease vaccines at once. I also ask they wait as long as possible for rabies and not to combine shots or shot with procedures such as a spay or neuter. I have seen too many issues to vaccinate and especially int ehlast few years have know too many people who have pups half way through their vaccines contract parvo, distemper, etc. I have also had three close friend in two years lose their senior s dogs within two weeks after a rabies booster. These were healthy dogs of 11 - 13 years old. I curretnly have and 11 and 7 year old who recievedone parvo and one distemper and probably 2 rabies, and a 5 year old with no vaccines, and a new 7 month old with no vaccines as well as a Sheltie litter which I will not vaccinate - their new home can if so desired. My dogs go everywhere with me, we show and they are mascots at our bus ministry. I understand vaccianting for rabies as it is a fatal disease though not very prevalent - at least not here, but I think we over vacccinate for that too and will do titers on my dogs if I must do rabies which it looks like Washington is going to have to starting in January. I watch my pups and expose them slowly to other dogs and let their immune system react to this exposure. Anyway, just my opion and I don't push it on anyone else but will answer any question as to how it works out for us. There are several good forums for support and information and you are welcome to pm me if you would like those. I am glad you are doing your research and hope you come to a plan that will work for you and your pup.


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## CorgiPaws (Mar 31, 2009)

I'm strongly considering taking a ZERO vaccine approach, but for some reason, I have this hangup on the "what ifs" and the IF something were to happen, it would be "my fault" and that's what I need to get over. And I know I need to get over it because it's stupid. Vaccines aren't even 100% effective, and more often than not the risks outweigh the possible benefits. The bordetella vaccine is the biggest rip off ever, I will never understand why people give it. 
I hate that I have to keep up on rabies but it is the reality of where I live.


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## Caty M (Aug 13, 2010)

As I think it's been mentioned already, the majority of parvo deaths have already recieved at least one DHLPP shot. That was what finally got me decided to do no vaccines. When Bishop hit one year I got him titred and he has a high titre to both parvo and distemper.


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## KittyKat (Feb 11, 2011)

bishopthesheltie said:


> As I think it's been mentioned already, the majority of parvo deaths have already recieved at least one DHLPP shot. That was what finally got me decided to do no vaccines. When Bishop hit one year I got him titred and he has a high titre to both parvo and distemper.


How much does it cost to get a dog titred?


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## Caty M (Aug 13, 2010)

Depending on area but I paid $235 for two titres plus yearly checkup here in Alberta. It's more expensive by far than just the combination shot. I likely won't be titering again as I think immunity lasts a lifetime.. you don't see many 80 year olds with chicken pox!


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## jiml (Jun 29, 2010)

unless there is a true threat, I see no reason to vaccinate.>>>>>

I agree. I think factors to be considered are - health of dog in question, likelihood of exposure, seriousness of disease if caught, likeliness of infection if exposed. 

Just because a vaccine exists is not a good reason for getting it.


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## lauren43 (Feb 6, 2011)

How do you guys do things with your dogs if they are not vaccinated? I take Ave to all sorts of obedience and doggy daycare and they have to be up to date on everything in order to go....


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## chowder (Sep 7, 2008)

All of the puppy kindergartens that I have used have required proof of puppy vaccines. I did Rocky's puppy ones and then the one year booster. That's the last one I did (except Rabies which is VERY prevalent here). He hasn't been to any official obedience classes, dog parks, or boarding places since then. I think most of the boarding facilities require that they are 'current' on vaccines.


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## Liz (Sep 27, 2010)

We do obedience training ourselves and the conformation class only asks for me to sign a waiver, wee go to shows, herding class/trials and agilty fun classes with no problem. I never board my dogs - if they can't come with me someone comes to my house to stay, that way I know they are taken care of.


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## Porphyria (Jul 13, 2011)

I don't have to worry about it for a while because Zephyr just got his last round of shots last year and they are listed as three year shots on his records, but it's something I'm concerned about too. Some places are beginning to accept documentation of titers in lieu of vaccines, so it's worth calling and asking about. But for the places that don't, I don't know what I'm going to do.


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## Caty M (Aug 13, 2010)

Most boarding and daycare facilities still require bordatella- and there is no titer for it. It's just about the most useless vaccine there is. I don't see why titers wouldn't be accepted over shots. They still aren't here. The 'every year' vaccines are still largely pushed where I live.


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## Mollygirl (May 14, 2011)

When we got our 3 dogs we got there shots up to date as by law here we have to have the rabies shot and have to have a city tag for them. Also you need the shots if you have your dog groomed, they ask to see the shot records. I have 2 cats who are never allowed outside, they never go anywhere, what are they going to catch? So they have never had shots since we've had them. I don't think it's really required to get the shots to stay healthy, but to protect yourself if something happens, your dog bites someone or like one time Johonna was going nuts outside and she had some baby bats she had found on the ground, we called animal control about them, then they started out asking about rabies shots, if she was up to date, she could have gotten bitten and they need to take precautions. They even had the bats tested for rabies. They wanted to take her away and put her in quarantine to watch her. I had to dig out copies of her shots. It was a pain and I was so scared they were going to take Johonna away and she didn't do anything but bark at the bats, their wasn't any bite marks on her.


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## BrownieM (Aug 30, 2010)

Caty M said:


> Most boarding and daycare facilities still require bordatella- and there is no titer for it. It's just about the most useless vaccine there is. I don't see why titers wouldn't be accepted over shots. They still aren't here. The 'every year' vaccines are still largely pushed where I live.


Couldn't agree more. Millie and Henry did not get Bordatella shots this year. Tiger I _did_ give it to him - just in case- since he will be showing and will be spending a few weeks at a time living in a kennel environment. But, he will only get the shot during his show career and not again when he retires. \\

I figure, if I have to board Mil and Henry for some reason, I will get their B. shots, but for now, I will just avoid that situation. I am so glad the therapy organization does not require annual vaccinations.

I am lucky that my groomer does not require vaccinations as she owns her own little shop and specializes in standard poodles. Also, I can groom my own dogs should I ever have a problem.


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## CorgiPaws (Mar 31, 2009)

Just a note on Boarding facilities:

They require it to cover their butts. If some sue happy idiot brought their dog, and he got kennel cough, they COULD pursue a lawsuit if all the dogs are in the facility are not fully vaccinated, because they will call lack of due diligence to prevent illness. It has been done in the past. 

We are incredibly lax on bordetella, (and for dogs we've known to be healthy we are somewhat lax on vaccines in general...) quite frankly, and I may just make up a waiver for people to sign. 
That's what sucks about business involving live animals, unfortunately there are so many idiots in the world that covering your butt can be a downfall for the dogs. It's a balancing act, for sure, when you actually care about what you do.


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## lauren43 (Feb 6, 2011)

When I had to board Avery to go to FL, he had to have his rabies which is a 3 yr, then the bordetella and the DHLPP booster, and at the same visit my vet want to give him the lymes vac too, I was like, I think that is enough for one day. I would just do the rabies if we could get away with it but I like sending him to daycare and he loves going. Hopefully they won't ask for the bordetella again, that stupid thing is every six months. 

Do you guys still give heartworm and flea meds or are there alternatives for that as well?


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## BrownieM (Aug 30, 2010)

lauren43 said:


> When I had to board Avery to go to FL, he had to have his rabies which is a 3 yr, then the bordetella and the DHLPP booster, and at the same visit my vet want to give him the lymes vac too, I was like, I think that is enough for one day. I would just do the rabies if we could get away with it but I like sending him to daycare and he loves going. Hopefully they won't ask for the bordetella again, that stupid thing is every six months.
> 
> Do you guys still give heartworm and flea meds or are there alternatives for that as well?


Does the daycare accept titers? Every place around here is very accepting of titers. From this point on, with the exception of Tiger who still needs a 1 booster at 1 year, my dogs will only be receiving Rabies every 3 years. Everyplace will allow titers in place of vaccines and SOME will even allow a written note from the vet. My holistic vet printed out a paper that says my dog does not need DHPP for 3 more years. (Even though we both know she does not need it at all).


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## Chocx2 (Nov 16, 2009)

*vaccines*

While on the topic of vaccines I had some questions, I read that some of you only vaccinate once for distemper? You don't do the annual booster? The reason why Im asking is my male, who had parvo as a pup got sick when they vaccinated him last because the distemper shot has parvo in it and they don't have them as separate vaccines. He has been vaccinated twice for distemper does he need to get that again? I have not taken him because of the mixing of shots, not wanting to get him sick from the parvo again. He gets sick because he has ammunities to it I guess and I don't want to do that to him. Any suggestions Also my other dogs haven't had that shot this go around either, only rabbies is that the only 
important shot?


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## lauren43 (Feb 6, 2011)

I have not asked the daycare about titers yet, but from their website it seems they want all the vaccines done. I just realized their is a holistic vet not too far from me, we may have to check them out. I love my current vet to death but he is not into the whole, raw feeding and not vacinating...


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## BrownieM (Aug 30, 2010)

lauren43 said:


> I have not asked the daycare about titers yet, but from their website it seems they want all the vaccines done. I just realized their is a holistic vet not too far from me, we may have to check them out. I love my current vet to death but he is not into the whole, raw feeding and not vacinating...


You might want to ask them personally. Many places will take titers. Some will require you to sign something in case your dog gets sick.


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## monkeys23 (Dec 8, 2010)

Has anyone near Idaho done titers for the distemper combo? I'm curious what the cost would be...

My vet does the booster that is good for three years, but since Lily is coming due for that and her 3 year rabies this Nov I am really considering doing titers instead and since I'm don't board them or anything there is really no reason to do bordatella either.


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## BrownieM (Aug 30, 2010)

monkeys23 said:


> Has anyone near Idaho done titers for the distemper combo? I'm curious what the cost would be...
> 
> My vet does the booster that is good for three years, but since Lily is coming due for that and her 3 year rabies this Nov I am really considering doing titers instead and since I'm don't board them or anything there is really no reason to do bordatella either.


Worst case scenario, if your vet wants to charge an arm and a leg (which they shouldn't...), you can have the Dr. Dodd's laboratory do it. It is $42.00 for Distemper + Parvo plus the cost of sending in the bloodwork and having your vet draw the blook. Hemopet


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## monkeys23 (Dec 8, 2010)

Cool, that is good to know!


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## Caty M (Aug 13, 2010)

Chocx2 said:


> While on the topic of vaccines I had some questions, I read that some of you only vaccinate once for distemper? You don't do the annual booster? The reason why Im asking is my male, who had parvo as a pup got sick when they vaccinated him last because the distemper shot has parvo in it and they don't have them as separate vaccines. He has been vaccinated twice for distemper does he need to get that again? I have not taken him because of the mixing of shots, not wanting to get him sick from the parvo again. He gets sick because he has ammunities to it I guess and I don't want to do that to him. Any suggestions Also my other dogs haven't had that shot this go around either, only rabbies is that the only
> important shot?


A good vaccination schedule would be to get the puppy series and then do the one year booster after that. You can titer but likely your dog will be immune for life. I wouldn't vaccinate him again especially if he has shown a reaction to it.


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## DoglovingSenior (Jun 26, 2011)

Caty M said:


> Depending on area but I paid $235 for two titres plus yearly checkup here in Alberta. It's more expensive by far than just the combination shot. I likely won't be titering again as I think immunity lasts a lifetime.. you don't see many 80 year olds with chicken pox!


But you do see 80 yr olds with those painful, disfiguring "Shingles" from the chicken pox virus. I got my shingles vaccination two years ago (no, not 80 yet) because I saw how my mother suffered and an aunt.

I will have to check records I pay about the same $235 for titres, heartworm fecal, Rabies etc during the yearly checkup. It ticks me off the darn vaccine is a 3 yr dose but GA insists that it be given every year- I use supplements before and after to detox. My vet says that it's crazy.


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## Caty M (Aug 13, 2010)

Rabies isn't required where I live and I don't give it, nor is there heartworm. The rabies shot isn't a three year dose, studies have shown it lasts at least 7 years and likely for life.


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## BrownieM (Aug 30, 2010)

Caty M said:


> Rabies isn't required where I live and I don't give it, nor is there heartworm. The rabies shot isn't a three year dose, studies have shown it lasts at least 7 years and likely for life.


Where do you live that Rabies is not required?


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## Caty M (Aug 13, 2010)

Calgary, AB, Canada. I think everywhere in the US it's required.


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