# Brachycephalic dog breeds -- Yay or nay?



## lauren43 (Feb 6, 2011)

I don't know how I feel about them. Don't get me wrong, I have never met a pug/boxer/frenchie I did not love. They are all great dogs with amazing personalities but I just have a hard time wrapping my head around these dogs that are whole heartedly man made (I do realize all dogs are technically). But some of these dogs would/could not live without human interference, especially English/French Bulldogs, which from my understanding need medical assistance to give birth.

This is not a thread against anyone who has them or loves them. I want more information. Are c-sections required? And if so what are your feelings about this? What are your feelings about some of the other medical issues these dogs are prone to (allergies, breathing issues, and other issues relating to having a flat face)?

What do you guys think?


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## bett (Mar 15, 2012)

if you are planning on breeding, then you have to ask yourself about the added expense. i know sometimes frenchies have some skin issues, but so do westies.

and often, even when we give birth, c sections arent planned. so...that all being said, i think frenchies are so dog damn cute.


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## GoingPostal (Sep 5, 2011)

Personally I think if a dog can't breed or birth naturally it shouldn't be bred and I can't stand the poor dogs with next to no nose and face, the ones that seem to be struggling for every breath and you have to worry about dropping dead if they get a bit warm or over exerted. The snorting, breathing and digestive problems of some brachy breeds is sad and I can barely stand to be around the dogs that sound like they are dying 24/7 but the owners seem to find that adorable. Too many breeds have gone from what they were to shorter legged, shorter bodies, shorter faces, more wrinkles, all to the detriment of the dog because humans find it attractive. I think many of these breeds are beyond hope at this point, english bulldogs and pugs especially seem to be particularly riddled with issues.


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## bett (Mar 15, 2012)

GoingPostal said:


> Personally I think if a dog can't breed or birth naturally it shouldn't be bred and I can't stand the poor dogs with next to no nose and face, the ones that seem to be struggling for every breath and you have to worry about dropping dead if they get a bit warm or over exerted. The snorting, breathing and digestive problems of some brachy breeds is sad and I can barely stand to be around the dogs that sound like they are dying 24/7 but the owners seem to find that adorable. Too many breeds have gone from what they were to shorter legged, shorter bodies, shorter faces, more wrinkles, all to the detriment of the dog because humans find it attractive. I think many of these breeds are beyond hope at this point, english bulldogs and pugs especially seem to be particularly riddled with issues.


i find that a tad bit sad.
then there would be no more of them.
good thing it doesnt work like that with some folks i know.
or maybe not.


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## meggels (May 30, 2010)

As a frenchie owner and enthusiast (ok...more like frenchie obsessed)...I love the breed.

I understand the health problems that can occur, but have also talked to many breeders and have been told that really, if you do your research and go to a good breeder, they are not the health ticking time bombs that many think they are. I also would NOT want a frenchie/pug/english bulldog that did not breathe well. 

Murphy is a great breather. He rarely snores, and he's a quiet breather. It's possible to breed these dogs and have them so that they are breathing normally (except for in the heat, care needs to be taken then). The heat thing is not a big deal to me, or a deal breaker....because I hate the heat lol. So Murph & I love to be inside my AC'd apartment 

C-sections are used because it's the safest way to get the puppies out. I lived with a breeder of (healthy) frenchies, and typically when their temperature drops and you know they are going into labor, you call your vet (who you typically have a great relationship with), and bring the dog in for the c-section. If it's after hours, you go to the e-vet. You don't want to take the puppies out even a day early, so everyone I know does as described above, waits for the bitch to go into labor, and then brings the dog in for a c-section. It's not planned beforehand like with human babies.


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## Georgiapeach (Jan 24, 2011)

lauren43 said:


> They are all great dogs with amazing personalities but I just have a hard time wrapping my head around these dogs that are whole heartedly man made (I do realize all dogs are technically). But some of these dogs would/could not live without human interference, especially English/French Bulldogs, which from my understanding need medical assistance to give birth.
> 
> What are your feelings about some of the other medical issues these dogs are prone to (allergies, breathing issues, and other issues relating to having a flat face)?


Yes, all dogs have been genetically engineered by man over the years to serve a certain purpose, or to obtain a certain look. I have a boxer, and I love them as a breed. Yes, I have to be careful in extreme heat (or cold). I take a bottle of water with me on walks and go before it gets too hot during the summer. When Dempsey has had enough playing Frisbee, he stops fetching (his choice, which I allow for health reasons), and we go inside; nevermind, after a drink of water and a 15 minute rest, he's ready to go again - lol! There is somewhat of a movement among some boxer breeders/judges to start breeding for slightly longer muzzles to allow easier breathing. My boxer already has a longer muzzle (currently called "bad breeding" - lol!), and he does do better on walks and playing than boxers I know with shorter muzzles. 

With that being said, don't most purebred dogs have SOME kind of health issue(s)? I know poodles, goldens, aussies, collies, westies, labs, bulldogs etc., etc., etc. do, so maybe you're picking out this particular type of dog to discuss b/c of their looks? Each to his/her own... The three breeds I have (all rescues) all have issues I have to address. Oh well, I love them anyway. My westie mix has all the skin issues of a westie and a bichon, times 2! So being a mutt doesn't necessarily help, if the mix is from breeds known to have issues. My poodle has severe luxating patellas (common in smaller poodles), which is controlled by supplements.


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## lauren43 (Feb 6, 2011)

Yes! Every breed has their issues. But dogs like the English bulldog worry me. Most that I've met are poorly bred with extreme underbites and very loud snorty breathing. We had one at the daycare that I nearly had a hard attack over her because she was breathing so hard, I ended up removing her from the fun and she was fine. If I had a dog like that I'd be beside myself with worry all the time.

And as I sad I haven't met one I didn't like. We had a frenchie named get this Frenchie. Lol. She was to die for I wanted to steal her. She made me want one so so so bad.


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## meggels (May 30, 2010)

I think the English bulldogs are a bit worse off compared to the frenchie. I've met dozens of frenchies that can breath normally just hanging around, walking, etc...but the few EB's I've met couldn't even do these simple things without breathing heavy. It was pretty scary. If the dog can't even walk around Petsmart without huffing and puffing, that's a big problem IMO. Murph trots around pet stores like its no big deal and breaths fine.


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## Celt (Dec 27, 2010)

I've seen several "poorly" bred. Some might even consider their breeders to be byb because they don't breed to the standard. Though they still are recognizable as being bulldogs, just not so "squashed faced" and slightly straighter legs but they still "roll" when they walk. That can run around the dogpark with the other dogs and not be any more short of breathe than the others (true, this isn't during the "hot times" of the day. Generally before 10 am or after 6pm, but the temperatures during the summer are quite often in the mid to high 80's and occassionally in the low 90's at those times). They don't snort, huff or "foam up" like I've seen some many "well bred" bulldogs do, so I do believe it is possible to breed bulldogs that can breathe and be active (without undo stress) and they still "look" and act like true bulldogs.
But, then again, I prefer the "old world" look for most breeds instead of the "modern day" show dog which would be hard to come by from most "good" breeders.


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## Sapphire-Light (Aug 8, 2010)

I live in a hot climate, when is "fresh" is 25c, but normally is around 32c when is hot it can get to 35c to 45c that can get more if is under the sunlight

All the frenchies, pugs, bostons and bulldogs I have met have a really hard time breathing and they are very inactive I have never seen them running or playing only walking slow and barely standing there doing nothing, the bulldogs are the worse you can hear them far away and they sound like a steam train 24/7


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## SuperPug (Mar 5, 2013)

I think I got REALLY lucky with my pug. Not sure if you all are aware, I found her wondering the streets and tried every venue to find her owners for over half a year. At the time many many people were getting laid off so we assumed that maybe her family got hit hard and they abandoned her. Emma doesn't appear to have too many problem. She is allergic to chicken, but she doesn't have many nose, teeth or eye problems. The only time you hear her breathing is after play or when she is sleeping. Even when she is sleeping, sometimes she's pretty quiet. And Emma is quite the active dog. She plays with her toys by herself and enjoys swimming on hot days and days that are not so hot she enjoys really long walks with me. Like, 4-5 mile walks.

I do believe, that if she had so many of the mushed faced doggie problems, I would of given her to a pug rescue. While I do have Care Credit and a rainy day fund, health-wise problematic dogs aren't for me

Dogs that need human interference to survive in their daily life(heath-wise) really shouldn't be bred. Very special care is to be taken to breed these breeds and I believe only the best should breed them. There's none like them and the special care should be taken.


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## Sprocket (Oct 4, 2011)

I believe that if they cannot breed or birth normally then they should not be breeding or birthing. 

I do love me a pug though. My sister lost her pug a few months back and he was an incredible little pug.


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

so much depends on the breeding program....and that applies to every breed....

brachy dogs are prone to certain structural problems, many of which could be bred out.

they are wonderful dogs...i love frenchies, bulldogs, and pugs...shih tzus, lhasas....i just love those smushy faced dogs...

if ever i got another one, you can bet i will not rescue but will find a breeding program whose goal in life is to breed out the negative structural issues ......

not every brachy is born c section. there are some naturally reared dogs who do not have to be delivered that way. it is, however, something ever breeder must think about when the mother whelps, no matter what the breed. brachies are definitely more prone to c sections than other breeds.


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## riddick4811 (Nov 2, 2011)

I love Bostons and Frenchies. Have one of each, both rescues. So I don't have much to do with the breeding aspect, I do like both breeds and would like to continue to have them. Mine run, swim, hike and do every single thing my other dogs do. You should have seen my Frenchie last night on our hike. He saw a rabbit and I couldn't believe how he ran. Never seen him go like that, he chased it for a good 500 ft w/o stopping, running flat out. He then turned and ran back to me and we continued on our 2 hour hike. He is 9 years old! My Boston is so fast, he can keep up with the Greyhounds. He does flirt pole, tug, fetch, and is a really fun super active dog. 

We went the beach the other day and there were 3 Frenchies there. They ran, played with my dogs, swam it the gulf and did everything any other dog was doing w/o issues. I'm sure there are many out there that are very unhealthy due to bad breeding for $$$, but I hear so many times that they can't do anything like normal dogs when it really isn't true for all of them. 

The c-section part doesn't bother me too much. Many dogs have to have c-sections. A dog at the rescue took from the shelter went into labor the next day and she had to have a c-section and she is mid size mutt with long nose, herding breed mix and pups were not huge or had big heads or anything. I would rather a breeder do a c-section than risk the bitch and pups dying. And IMO, there isn't much I've seen cuter than a Frenchie puppy.


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## NewYorkDogue (Sep 27, 2011)

My dog (Dogue de Bordeaux) is a brachy breed. Yes, he was a c-section pup; not sure how the insemination took place (natural or not.) Besides some (fairly soft) snoring, and difficulty with very warm temps in the summer, their really is no other health issue with him. His stamina is great, has a lot of energy, and is a powerful wrestler, LOL.

I did meet a DDB breeder once who told me that he was attempting to breed his Dogues with an even shorter nose/snout--even said Mateo's "could be a bit shorter." 

For what reason?! Even more wrinkles? To sacrifice a dog's breathing ability for vanity? Unbelievable...and just yuck.


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## meggels (May 30, 2010)

riddick4811 said:


> I love Bostons and Frenchies. Have one of each, both rescues. So I don't have much to do with the breeding aspect, I do like both breeds and would like to continue to have them. Mine run, swim, hike and do every single thing my other dogs do. You should have seen my Frenchie last night on our hike. He saw a rabbit and I couldn't believe how he ran. Never seen him go like that, he chased it for a good 500 ft w/o stopping, running flat out. He then turned and ran back to me and we continued on our 2 hour hike. He is 9 years old! My Boston is so fast, he can keep up with the Greyhounds. He does flirt pole, tug, fetch, and is a really fun super active dog.
> 
> We went the beach the other day and there were 3 Frenchies there. They ran, played with my dogs, swam it the gulf and did everything any other dog was doing w/o issues. I'm sure there are many out there that are very unhealthy due to bad breeding for $$$, but I hear so many times that they can't do anything like normal dogs when it really isn't true for all of them.
> 
> The c-section part doesn't bother me too much. Many dogs have to have c-sections. A dog at the rescue took from the shelter went into labor the next day and she had to have a c-section and she is mid size mutt with long nose, herding breed mix and pups were not huge or had big heads or anything. I would rather a breeder do a c-section than risk the bitch and pups dying. And IMO, there isn't much I've seen cuter than a Frenchie puppy.



I got to help out with a few c-sections. Newborn frenchie puppies are just too cute. They are not an easy breed to raise in terms of those first few weeks, a lot can go wrong. But god damn, they are cute puppies...










That's newborn Murphy lol.


And this one was from one of the last litters I helped with before moving...




















How can you not love a frenchie puppy lol?


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## flashyfawn (Mar 8, 2012)

I know several English bulldogs and many pugs and with the exception of one of the pugs, they all sound like they can hardly breathe. It's kind of sad. The one pug who can breathe normally is also the only one I can think who isn't terribly overweight, so that might have something to do with it. I don't see a lot of Frenchies here but those that I do see are fantastic dogs with no obvious health issues. 

Boxers definitely have their share of health issues but I don't think any of them are really directly related to being brachcephalic. I don't think they are a breed that normally requires a c-section either. I always avoided exercise during the worst heat of the day, but that's something I do with all of my dogs, not just when I had boxers. My most recent boxer did need a jacket when it was cold out, but that was not a big problem. He did snore loud enough to wake the dead but otherwise never made any noises just from breathing. My two current dogs who are both long-nosers don't snore and honestly I kind of miss it! I think part of all of this type of thing is just what you get used to dealing with as far as what a particular breed needs.


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## lauren43 (Feb 6, 2011)

I *think* and I could be wrong, that its just the English and French Bulldogs requiring c-sections.
And from the shih tzus and boxers I've met I don't *think* they are quite as prone to the breathing problems..but I've also met some well breathing Frenchies, Pugs, Bostons and other squishy faced dogs. So I suppose its hit or miss, as everything seems to be in the dog world.

This topic came up because there is someone on my local CL trying to SELL mother and daughter EB's. This person wants $800 for them so she keeps getting flagged and I just look at their pictures and deep down I want them (theorically, because i am not current in a place for another dog) but then I have this inner struggle over weither or not its ok...(I don't know why I have some sort of strange guilty conscience) These two in particular are extremely over weight (at least IMHO, the ad says 40lbs each)...so I can only imagine what their breathing sounds like...

I'd like to rescue a Boston or Frenchie one of these days...I think.


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## Dude and Bucks Mamma (May 14, 2011)

I think that, when a c-section is routine and allowing the bitch to birth the puppies isn't even attempted then there is something wrong. There really isn't a breed I want to see go extinct but there are plenty that I would like to see "tweaked" so that their physical health issues aren't as awful as they are now. 

For example, Neapolitan Mastiffs (not sure if these guys are considered brachy or not) have a shorter lifespan than Great Danes and have terrible knees. Let's not forget about some having so much skin that they have to tilt their heads up to get that skin to roll down to their necks so they can see. Neos originally resembled Cane Corsos. The way they look now was due to breeding for the whims of the show ring (which is a whole 'nother topic for a whole 'nother day). I would LOVE to see them bred to have much less skin (should still be loose but not droopy and not look like curtains hanging from their faces) and to see breeding programs produce dogs that have longer lives and a stronger structure. 

The same goes for the brachycephalic dogs like Pugs, Bulldogs, Brussels Griffons, etc. I know we all love the look of our breed but, if you could have the same personality and temperament you love so much with with slightly different looks and a longer life wouldn't it be worth it? I have a Xolo and I absolutely adore him. I love everything about him from his personality to his hairlessness. However, if breeding hairless Xolos was detrimental to the breed and the hairless dogs were prone to health issues so it was decided that hairless Xolos should stop being bred for I would have NO qualms about buying a coated Xolo. It would not be the same look but it would still be the same breed I love. That example is a bit more drastic than slightly longer snouts but I couldn't think of a better one.


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## Sprocket (Oct 4, 2011)

If the dog is being put through a c section EVERY SINGLE time, then the breeder is doing something wrong IMO. Cute or not, its just not good for the dog or the breed to require that they have surgery to get the puppies out. A c section in an emergency is not the same.

We all understand that nothing good comes out of going against mother nature...


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## Kassandra (Jun 6, 2012)

I hate them, honestly. Not saying anything about the breeds - I DO think they are cute as a button but they dogs just aren't for me. 

The longer the muzzle the better for me. I like to run and yes, even when it is 1 pm in the heat of the summer I am outside with my girls so I don't want a dog that has to be put inside in the cool when it gets too hot for fear they will die. 

I also feel that if they can't conceive or give birth naturally, they shouldn't be bred. It's just weird in my head.


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

meggels, i love the one where he's waving LOL


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## meggels (May 30, 2010)

magicre said:


> meggels, i love the one where he's waving LOL



i know! Always made me laugh because that's exactly what he looked like he was doing hehe.


this one is also another favorite of mine. I like to call it "raise the roof puppy"


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## lauren43 (Feb 6, 2011)

Meggels those pictures are killing me! It doesn't get much better than that. How can you resist that squishy face? A friend of mine has a Frenchie and I just want to rub his face all the time!


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## meggels (May 30, 2010)

lauren43 said:


> Meggels those pictures are killing me! It doesn't get much better than that. How can you resist that squishy face? A friend of mine has a Frenchie and I just want to rub his face all the time!


I squish Murph's face in between my hands on a regular basis and smooch him.


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

i do love me some pugs and frenchies...and my absolute two faves, french mastiffs and bull dogs.


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## SuperPug (Mar 5, 2013)

I love mushing Emma's face and making her face more wrinkly. But she has the perfect amount of wrinkles. xD


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## Celt (Dec 27, 2010)

I have nothing against brachy breeds as long as they have a "shorten" muzzle instead of looking like their nose is in between their eyes with the mouth underneath. When you can barely see a dog's nose, there's something wrong


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## riddick4811 (Nov 2, 2011)

meggels said:


> i know! Always made me laugh because that's exactly what he looked like he was doing hehe.
> 
> 
> this one is also another favorite of mine. I like to call it "raise the roof puppy"


I so need him!  Rocky was 6 yrs old when I got him, dog aggressive and very sick. Took a lot of work to turn him around, but he turned out to be a fantastic dog. He finally got used to being around other dogs and now he is very friendly and even started to play with some dogs. He was a stud dog for a byb who kept them in small wire cages. He is allergic to fleas and had rubbed his backside on the wire so much he had calluses. His lungs were filled with pus/fluid and green snot coming out his nose when I got him from the shelter. After we got his pneumonia cleared up he has to have surgery to removed the calluses and his hair finally grew back in. 

I want a puppy one day so we can start off on the right foot. But I love Rocky and glad I got him. Even though he cost me more than a puppy to get him healthy, he was well worth it!


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

riddick, that's our story with bubba, too.....he was two, tied to a crate with a cable, living in a garage and they bleached his anus. had plywood for a bed.

what a hot mess he was for the first year and a half.....he had surgery on his nose and two surgeries on his eyes. 

today, he's a real dog, but then? not housetrained, fearful, aggressive.

if ever i got another pug or frenchie or brachy dog, it would not be a rescue......i love bubba to death and i get jelly when i see well bred dogs....or dogs who got off to a better start....

right now, i'm doing collie flowers and i'm fine with that. i do love this collie and i love this breed.....


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## meggels (May 30, 2010)

I have to say...murph has just got such an amazing personality and temperament. And being dragged atound state to state for a few months to be shown as a pup also helped make him a pretty bomb proof dog. Everyone that knows him comments on what a special dog he is. I didn't get him until 8 months so I know I didn't have anything to do with it LOL, but I think a combo of a good breeder/good lines, and TONS of socialization really made him.

I'm working on some issues now, in that I just figured out, I think he's developed a fear of other dogs, or the majority of them. He tries desperately to get away, whether its head butting the dog park gate, or clawing people's legs to be picked up. I think a few bad incidents last year (one where a doxie grabbed him as he walked by, one where a golden pinned him snarling, and one where a lab snapped and nicked him on the head), and I'm finally putting two and two together  I hope he can learn to at least be ok with other dogs and not terrified and feeling the need to escape. It clicked today when he met my bosses 10 week old standard poodle puppy at the office and tried to escape the office to get away. Sigh.

I looked into frenchie rescue before I got him, but the dogs there all seemed to be dog aggressive, which wouldn't work with having Abbie, or have one or more health problems. I'm actually driving up to Vermont Thursday to pick up a 4 year old female pet store frenchie that was abused  she's going to be going into a foster home through Rachel's rescue (some may know Rachel, she used to be a regular on here).


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## InkedMarie (Sep 9, 2011)

Re, why did they bleach Bubba's anus?


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

InkedMarie said:


> Re, why did they bleach Bubba's anus?


i was afraid to ask. his bum was shaved in a perfect circle and inside that circle, was bleached.....i just don't know.

i am amazed that he is the great dog he is, from what he lived with the first two years of his life. a pug in a garage. i cannot imagine.


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## InkedMarie (Sep 9, 2011)

magicre said:


> i was afraid to ask. his bum was shaved in a perfect circle and inside that circle, was bleached.....i just don't know.
> 
> i am amazed that he is the great dog he is, from what he lived with the first two years of his life. a pug in a garage. i cannot imagine.


Why are you amazed? You're his owner, right? Nuff' said.


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