# Most important part of a dog.



## Cliffdog

I guess I just had to rant because I got so frustrated. On another forum, I was a participant in a crop/dock disagreement. It was my opinion that if you only like a breed because you can crop and dock them, then you really don't care much for the dogs. This is the response I got:



> Well..maybe some people have a more finely developed sense of aesthetics. My motto is life is too short to live with ugly dogs.


I dunno, I just found it offensive. Apparently only good looking dogs deserve a good home.

I guess I wanted to ask, am I the only one who doesn't find looks very important when selecting a dog? I've actually always been a bit more attracted to "ugly dogs" because they tend to have great personalities.


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## kevin bradley

you are 100% correct. Sadly, some people have a very odd value system.


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## catahoulamom

good thing dogs don't feel the same way about living with ugly humans.


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## DaneMama

My heart Breed of Great Danes come across this topic all too often. I found that discussing it on the Dane specific forum that most people there liked and implemented cropping ears on their Danes. But on here and other non breed specific dog forums that people don't like the issue of cropping and docking. I personally won't ever chop off my dogs ears for many reasons. A dogs life isn't worth doing these invasive and unnecessary cosmetic proceedures. 

Since dogs depend on us to make decisions regarding their health and happiness....I highly doubt that dogs would EVER choose to have their body parts chopped off for vanity's sake.


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## BrownieM

I agree very much! I would love a poodle with an undocked tail but its quite difficult to find a reputable breeder in the United States who leaves the tails natural. They dock by the 3rd day and most breeders won't know which pups are show vs. pet prospects by that age. Also, I would like my next puppy to be for show and its nearly impossible to finish a standard poodle in the US with an undocked tail.

In Europe tail docking is illegal! Not sure if ear cropping is illegal or not.


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## Cliffdog

Yes, in most parts of Europe, tail docking and ear cropping is banned, in any breed. Apparently, a lot of people left the Doberman breed when it happened. Disgraceful, if you ask me.

I used to support ear cropping, as do many people in the bully breed, but my friend lost her APBT puppy when he had a reaction to the anesthesia while getting his ears cropped. Ever since, I think that subjecting a dog to any surgery that is not necessary is taking a foolish and near-abusive risk. Good luck going, my dogs will never experience any surgery other than spay/neuter.


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## cast71

My dog is natural. I think it looks better:thumb: I think cropping and docking is ugly ahahahahahaha I know alot of people think the opposite. Like already said and more importantly, why hurt your puppies. Beside the chance of them dying under Anestassia, it probablly hurts like hell. I wiould think it's like plastic surgery for people. After there surgery, they look like they got beat up with a baseball bat:banplease:


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## Cliffdog

Tail docking DOES hurt. I've seen it done, and they cry and cry and cry. Ear cropping doesn't seem to cause a tremendous amount of pain, but it does very much seem to cause soreness/irritation. Not to mention having their ears taped up for months, which is itchy, hot, and uncomfortable.


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## jdatwood

I'm totally against cropping/docking.

On a rare occasion I'll see a crop job that looks great. Most of the time (Danes especially) end up with ears resembling bat wings that don't stand right.


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## Cliffdog

I see lots of crops on Dobes that look absolutely smashing, but I still don't support it.


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## cast71

To be honest, I hate the ear cropping on pits with a passion. I get the fighting image in my head, even though most people do it for show. That's just me and I would rescue a cropped pit in a heartbeat. Afterall it's not there fault they got cropped. I appologize in advance to the show people that do cropping. This is just my oppinioneep:


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## 3Musketeers

I am completely against ear-cropping, and mostly against tail docking. The only reason I'm not totally against docking is because apparently some dogs have "whip" tails or damage/break them very easily. I think the better solution to this is to breed it out of them to leave future generations undocked.

As for "aesthetics" I personally don't like the way brachycephalic (flat-faced) dogs, cats, anything looks. I think part of this is that I've seen too many of em that are fat and have trouble just breathing. I like thin, normal-to-dolichocephalic (long-faced) dogs, and feathered/long fur.
But over any of that, I prefer healthy, low maintenance breeds. Do not want regular shedding or a thick undercoat, or easily-matting coats :shocked:. Too much work...


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## Cliffdog

I absolutely hate hate hate the look of squish-faced animals. But like I said, I'm not out for a pet because of looks. We got a black squish faced cat with trouble breathing and a messed-up leg, and we had to shave her because of all the mats. We named her Gertie (after Gunpowder Gertie) and even though I thought she was the ugliest thing I ever saw, she was one of the coolest cats ever. However, somebody claimed we stole her, even though we had just found her limping around in the middle of the street (and had spent hundreds in vet care on her). So, we didn't get to keep her.


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## Boxers&Pom's Mom

I will not do any kind of mutation in any animal, but I have to said that my Boxer Cassie will be more happier dog if her ears were crop. She has so many ears infections due to the shape of her ears and the humidity that stay always there. 
If my poor Cassie were living with someone that doesn't clean her ears often and always has an antibiotic on hand for the most minimal sign of infections she will be a very sad dog.


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## Cliffdog

Ear infections stink  I worried about them with Bonnie because it's humid here too. But more cropped eared Dobermans get ear infection than natural, I hear a lot in the Doberman community... and their dogs also don't like to go out in the rain and such because the water gets into their ears.


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## MissusMac

Not only do we need to fight tail docking and ear cropping, now they are talking about vocal cord alterations for dogs who bark too much! WTF?! :tsk:

And honestly- that comment about "life is too short to live with ugly dogs" sickens me. 

I am told all the time that my dog is beautiful (as I'm sure we all do) but I almost feel guilty about saying "thanks" because I can take no credit for it. But at least I know I've never harmed him, especially for aesthetics. 

My heart dog was a collie/golden/??? mix that we found out in the country. After loving an animal so much, I can't fathom basing affection on looks.


beauty =/= love.


Again: I hate people.


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## wags

Judging by what she says she appears to look at things through a microscope! Can't have people jusdging others by their apperance dogs cats rabbits guniea pigs whatever~This person sounds like they have an ugly look on life. Ugly personality ! That's a shame. How an animal looks, has nothing to do with its personality! In life your gonna meet animals ~people~ whatever that aren't as appealing as you like but they can have the best personalities ~the best outlook on life ~so this person needs a reality check on her own discrepencies! and her personality! You meet some weird ones sometimes! :shocked:


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## Cliffdog

I agree. I mean, especially just the idea that uncropped ears would make a dobe "ugly" is silly in itself, she must have some exact specifications of how things should look, and anything not to her exact specifications is ugly!


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## BrownieM

I think that dobes, danes, etc. look SO much better with UNCROPPED ears!!

I used to think poodles looked funny with natural tails, but that is because it is incredibly rare to find in the States. Usually BYBs cropped them too short (like a dobe tail) and reputable breeders are almost always showing, so they generally follow AKC breed standard and crop 2/3 on, 1/3 off. I recently have seen standard poodles with full tails and I think they look so beautiful! I truly would love to have a poodle with a natural tail. I would even consider trying to show one, but likely I would not be able to finish the poodle with a natural tail because they tend to carry over their back (a major fault) if left natural. This does not happen as much in Europe because now that tail docking is illegal, they have bred _out_ many of the tails carried over the back. Now, if the US made it illegal then it would be the norm and breeders would breed out the "faulted" tails.

Truth is, it would be hard for me to convince a breeder to choose, at 3 days of age, which puppy is best suited for me and thus will have its tail left natural. 

UNLESS....I have my next puppy shipped from Europe! :thumb:


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## CorgiPaws

Cliffdog said:


> Tail docking DOES hurt. I've seen it done, and they cry and cry and cry. Ear cropping doesn't seem to cause a tremendous amount of pain, but it does very much seem to cause soreness/irritation. Not to mention having their ears taped up for months, which is itchy, hot, and uncomfortable.


I won't claim it doesn't hurt- that would be silly. I will say that I witnessed the third litter of Boxer puppies go through their dew claw removal and tail docking recently. Of these three litters I've witnessed, there are 14 puppies. Of these 14 puppies, three even made a peep at their docking. And none carried on, not one. It was over in one second, and most didn't even bleed more than a drop or two. Hell, I've caused more harm to Annie stepping on her toes on accident than the breeder sis docking her!
I'm not against tail docking. I neither support it, nor hate it. I love nub butts, and I love having dogs without tails. I will admit that. My boxers will probably always be docked- because quite frankly, I love my breeder, and have no intentions of going elsewhere. Should I ever get into Boxer breeding, I will do tails. Sue me. 


Ear cropping, on the other hand, annoys me. Partly because it just looks stupid, and partly because the number of dogs I see on a regular basis at work with terrible scars, scabs, infections, etc. from their crop job is sickening. The fact that I know of many Boxers with taped ears for a YEAR of their life is annoying. The dane that comes to work that has naked ears because of the tape pulling the fur out- is annoying. I think that it is far too prolonged of a process to justify it on any animal. 





Cliffdog said:


> I absolutely hate hate hate the look of squish-faced animals.


That's a shame. I think Annie is rather cute, myself!


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## Cliffdog

CorgiPaws said:


> I won't claim it doesn't hurt- that would be silly. I will say that I witnessed the third litter of Boxer puppies go through their dew claw removal and tail docking recently. Of these three litters I've witnessed, there are 14 puppies. Of these 14 puppies, three even made a peep at their docking. And none carried on, not one. It was over in one second, and most didn't even bleed more than a drop or two. Hell, I've caused more harm to Annie stepping on her toes on accident than the breeder sis docking her!
> I'm not against tail docking. I neither support it, nor hate it. I love nub butts, and I love having dogs without tails. I will admit that. My boxers will probably always be docked- because quite frankly, I love my breeder, and have no intentions of going elsewhere. Should I ever get into Boxer breeding, I will do tails. Sue me.


I believe you. I probably should have mentioned that I only saw one litter done (rottweilers) and 3 of the 4 cried. The ones that cried, cried for a long time. But rottweilers are known to make noise just to hear themselves, so perhaps they were just going on because they could.



> Ear cropping, on the other hand, annoys me. Partly because it just looks stupid, and partly because the number of dogs I see on a regular basis at work with terrible scars, scabs, infections, etc. from their crop job is sickening. The fact that I know of many Boxers with taped ears for a YEAR of their life is annoying. The dane that comes to work that has naked ears because of the tape pulling the fur out- is annoying. I think that it is far too prolonged of a process to justify it on any animal.


I feel the same. I also worry about putting an animal under anesthesia for no reason other than cosmetics. Like I've said before, my friend took her pittie in for a crop and came home dogless.



> That's a shame. I think Annie is rather cute, myself!


I adore Boxer dogs, they're one of my favorite breeds. It's not all brachycephalic dogs that I don't like the look of, just the squish-faced ones, with literally no muzzle to speak of. Pugs, etc. But I would own one, regardless, if it was the right dog for my home.


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## DaneMama

Tail docking isn't all that invasive at all. Puppies dont even notice most of the time. And if they do, they'll forget it a second later. Like Linsey said...you cause a dog more pain by stepping on their toes! I'm not against tail docking either if it's done within 2-3 days of being born. 

Ear cropping should be banned. Plain and simple. The people who break the rules should have the punishment of losing their own ears. And cropped ears don't prevent ear infections...these are most commonly caused by inappropriate foods being fed OR environmental irritants.

ETA: I know several Dane breeders who have lost several of their top puppies during crop procedures. What a shame.


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## mischiefgrrl

My Aussie has a full tail and it is gorgeous! I had an aussie before that had a docked tail and his wiggle butt was adorable - I didn't choose that, he was already docked when I got him.

I think if an animal needs to be amputated or surgically cropped for health reasons, then the breeding is going against nature.


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## Cliffdog

danemama08 said:


> Tail docking isn't all that invasive at all. Puppies dont even notice most of the time. And if they do, they'll forget it a second later. Like Linsey said...you cause a dog more pain by stepping on their toes! I'm not against tail docking either if it's done within 2-3 days of being born.
> 
> Ear cropping should be banned. Plain and simple. The people who break the rules should have the punishment of losing their own ears. And cropped ears don't prevent ear infections...these are most commonly caused by inappropriate foods being fed OR environmental irritants.


I spoke to a couple of people about the whole docking thing and learned something. Apparently most breeders when docking do a technique called banding, a day or two after the puppy is born, they tightly wrap a rubber band around the dog's tail, cutting off the circulation and preventing healthy nerve growth. The next day or so, they dock the tail and it is pretty painless.

In my case there was none of that. The guy just brought in a couple 3 or 4 day old puppies and the vet snipped the tails. And good grief did they wail! Most of them. And we heard them crying until the guy walked out the door with them. It wasn't a very gory process, but they sure sounded hurt.

I agree 100% on ear cropping. Both of my breeds of choice are a cropped breed and I can't stand it!w


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## SilverBeat

Cliffdog said:


> I spoke to a couple of people about the whole docking thing and learned something. Apparently most breeders when docking do a technique called banding, a day or two after the puppy is born, they tightly wrap a rubber band around the dog's tail, cutting off the circulation and preventing healthy nerve growth. The next day or so, they dock the tail and it is pretty painless.


A lot of shepherds use this with their sheep, it is called the Elastrator. Much more humane and safe than traditional docking with shears or another kind of blade.. 
Heavy Duty Band Elastrator | QC Supply
Most types of sheep need their tails docked for health reasons, although not always. 
I am not a fan of cropping or docking; I volunteer at both a rescue and a shelter and we get dogs and cats coming in all the time who [direct quote] "didn't go with my carpet/decor/purse." We have even had a couple of dogs come in because their owner was not pleased with their crop job. 
People disgust me.


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## malluver1005

I have never seen an ear cropping procedure. But I've seen a tail docking on 2-3 day old boxer puppies. They whined for about 5 minutes and then it was over. But I couldn't watch because they do yelp when they snip them off!


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## xxshaelxx

I just want to say that I DO NOT agree with ear cropping as a cosmetic surgery. It just disgusts me to no end, because if it's unnecessary, then why should we do it? I mean, the dog can't decide whether it wants to look that way as you can decide you want a bigger chest or smaller thighs. They're stuck with YOUR decision.

Tail docking, however, is another thing. I don't fully agree with it, like for the means of cosmetics, but for many breeds, there is a good reason why these dogs' tails are docked. Take Aussies, for example. Their tails are docked so that in the workplace, it doesn't get caught in gates or stepped on by livestock. That being said, though, I absolutely LOVE an Aussie with a full tail. I think they're absolutely GORGEOUS!!!!!!! Without a doubt, in love with the Aussie tail. XD With some dogs, like Rottweilers, Dobermans, Pit Bulls, many people dock the tail because it whips around like...well...a whip. It's capable of breaking many things, hurting children, etc., and we don't want that, now do we? However, I think ALL tail dockings should be done by a PROFESSIONAL. Not by some novice who THINKS they know what they're doing but have never done it before, such as backyard breeders or idiots trying to make their dogs look cool. But yeah...I LOVE a full Aussie tail. hehe.


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## xxshaelxx

Oh, I almost forgot...

I love, love, love, love, LOVE the look of floppy eared Dobies and Pits and Danes and...and...and...Boxers, and...and...and...but yeah, you get the point. I think they're SO much cuter with their ears all floppy-woppy. Especially considering one point of people docking ears is to make their dogs look more intimidating...STOOPID!


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## rannmiller

I do feel bad when I have to hold the puppies for tail docking and dew claw removal but to me, it is no more painful/scaring/traumatizing than a circumcision on human boy babies if done properly. 

I personally love docked breeds and docked tails. Peyton is my first nub-butt and I love it! No evil tail to beat my legs to death or knock over everything on my coffee table or get shut in a door or broken on a wall corner. Might sound selfish but I'd rather have the tail removed when the dog is a tiny baby than when they bust it open constantly as adults and have to have it amputated. 

Ear cropping is a totally unnecessary cosmetic surgery that does nothing to enhance/improve the performance of the breed. However, my next Dobe will probably come from a breeder who does the cropping before sending the puppy home which is unfortunate but it's nearly impossible to find a really great Dobe breeder who doesn't crop before sending their puppies home 

I think cropped ears can look great in pictures, but when I see them in real life, they usually look really weird, small, and stupid. Just not worth it IMO.


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## xxshaelxx

rannmiller said:


> No evil tail to beat my legs to death or knock over everything on my coffee table or get shut in a door or broken on a wall corner. Might sound selfish but I'd rather have the tail removed when the dog is a tiny baby than when they bust it open constantly as adults and have to have it amputated.


Exactly my point! XD


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## eternalstudent

I love the fact that my rotti has her tail, and I don't know how anyone after seeing a litter of little pups happily wagging their tails would ever want to chop them off. If you have a working breed that has the choice of docked tail or sore painful constantly hurting tail then dock otherwise leave them alone.

I have a lot of people asking me if I like my pup even though she has a tail..... emmm how dumb a question is that .

(there are enough places in europe that if you still want a docked dog you can get it. But you can not show anywhere in europe if your dog is docked after a specific date and this includes crufts)


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## rannmiller

I would say 99% of the people I talk to are very happy I chose to leave Peyton's ears floppy. I had one weirdo tell me a couple of months ago that "11 months isn't too old to have her cropped, you can have it done any time, you just have to get a shorter crop. But it's definitely better for them to have their ears cropped." I think he meant better healthwise. I keep getting all of these morons who were kids in the 70s (when Dobes were the second most popular breed in the country) who had Dobes growing up and their parents bred them blah blah blah so now they regard themselves as an expert on the breed and like to give me all sorts of pearls of wisdom. He also told me you can't have female Dobes around kids because they get jealous and bite them  Peyton loves kids, they're at the perfect face-kissing height for her!


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## chikle134

Cliffdog said:


> I guess I just had to rant because I got so frustrated. On another forum, I was a participant in a crop/dock disagreement. It was my opinion that if you only like a breed because you can crop and dock them, then you really don't care much for the dogs. This is the response I got:
> 
> 
> 
> I dunno, I just found it offensive. Apparently only good looking dogs deserve a good home.
> 
> I guess I wanted to ask, am I the only one who doesn't find looks very important when selecting a dog? I've actually always been a bit more attracted to "ugly dogs" because they tend to have great personalities.


really whats more important is a dogs health, the looks of a dog determines the health, now its wrong to say that life is too short to have an ugly dog. some plpe have diff opinions on dogs, some thinkg ugly ones are cute some dont. i dont judge im a big big pitbull lover but i dont care about the looks i care about the breed itself. if i see some one with an ugly looking pitbull im not gonna walk away i would still like to see it and pet it and let it socialize with my dog. that goes with anydog. i bought my pitbull from a backyard breeder and i had to choose the puppy i wanted, and yea i chose the cutest one that i wanted. but to me all puppies are cute no matter the breed. people who want dogs just for there looks shouldnt own a dog because if they get a dog that grows to be ugly most likely they will abandon it and get a new dog. and thats y there are alot of dogs in shelters now a days. my dog grew to be who she is and i love her with all my heart. i wouldnt change her for no dog. i helped my dog and trained my dog to look pretty and healthy and to have a good personality.


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## _Trish

Cliffdog said:


> I absolutely hate hate hate the look of squish-faced animals.


That kind of, actually no -- it REALLY offends me. I would never say "I absolutely hate hate hate the look of Dobermans, I mean geeze - look at their long noses, how ugly!". I don't feel that way, but even if I did, I'd never say it. I love all animals, regardless of how they look. 

I love my dogs with all of my heart, and I find their squished faces endearing. FWIW, mine have no breathing problems.


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## BrownieM

Oh...well... Try not to take things too personally  I am used to people telling me my dogs are ugly! I have poodles. Some people just don't like 'em. That's okay!


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## _Trish

Thanks, Brownie. It's just hard for me not to care, when I love my dogs so much. But, I understand your point. I think your dogs are beautiful! My mom has Portuguese Water Dogs and people are always calling her curly coated ones Poodles. She doesn't mind.


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## rannmiller

I agree, unfortunately we can't take things too personally ever anymore unless it is an intentional and personal attack aimed at us individually. For example, I brought my Doberman in to work with me to have her bandaged changed (because she's a super klutz), and one of the vets was doing a procedure next to us and we were talking about what kind of dog she wanted to get. So I jokingly told her she should get a Doberman and she said, "No way, I do _not_ like Dobermans!" as my sweet, beautiful baby is there on the table getting wrapped up right next to her :frown:

At first I was really pissed and offended but didn't say anything because, well, she's the boss. But after I walked away and cooled off I just decided to brush it off since there was nothing I could do about it and I know she didn't mean it personally. But it definitely means I will be using any and all other doctors at the clinic for all of my pets from now on before I decide to use her, because at least that I have control over. 

Sorry about the rant and sorry you got offended by Cliffdog's comments, I'm sure it was not directed at you but I know it can suck when people say negative things about your breed. For the record, I think all Frenchies (especially yours) are absolutely adorable! But, like you, I love all dogs and think they're all super cute in their own way.


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## Loki Love

I guess I'm going to be the odd man out here - I do prefer/enjoy the look of a nicely cropped dog. When we bought Loki, he was already 8 months and the crop was done, taping done, etc - so we had no choice with him and I love his ears.

Were we to have a Dane puppy at some point in the future, I would probably stop and give pause before going ahead with a crop. First off, there are fewer excellent croppers available and if you're going to crop, you better make sure you have someone who knows the breed and what they are doing - would hate for the crop to turn out horribly. Secondly, the taping of the ears is a massive time committment and it has to be done religiously - I'm not sure I'm up for that task!

I completely respect the opinions of others who would choose not to crop (or dock in the case of this discussion) - but I would hate for my right in doing so to be taken away too.


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## mel2mdl

3Musketeers said:


> As for "aesthetics" I personally don't like the way brachycephalic (flat-faced) dogs, cats, anything looks.


But how can you say this face is ugly? 










Not sure the link will work, but this is the ONLY non-mutt dog I've owned, and he was a rescue too. Neither ears nor tail cropped, but Boston Terriers are born that way. I'm glad my sister's corgis have cropped tails or they would be stepped on way too many times. I not totally opposed to cropping, but too often it is done wrong. Especially with pits. I love floppy ears, but I love my babies pointing ones too!


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## werecatrising

Aww... Trish, don't take it personally. I think your pups are cute. I don't think it is wrong to say you are not attracted to a certain look of dog in a conversastion. It might be different if you were to walk up to a person and say their dog is ugly...

Rannmiller, how many dogs have you seen that had to have a tail amputated due to injury? It doesn't seem all that common to me. In the 9 years I have been a tech I have seen two dogs with injured tails that need amputation.


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## RawFedDogs

I've said it before and I'll say it again now. With very few exceptions, the only reason to crop a dog's ears is for the ego of the owner.

Howerver, there is one more thing to take into consideration. There are no floppy ears in any animal in nature.


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## Ania's Mommy

RawFedDogs said:


> Howerver, there is one more thing to take into consideration. There are no floppy ears in any animal in nature.


Elephants.


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## rannmiller

werecatrising said:


> Rannmiller, how many dogs have you seen that had to have a tail amputated due to injury? It doesn't seem all that common to me. In the 9 years I have been a tech I have seen two dogs with injured tails that need amputation.


In the 9 months that I've been working at my clinic, I've seen at least 4 dogs (3 danes, 1 english pointer) that I can think of off the top of my head that needed tail amputations and had them done (there were probably others, but I can't recall at the moment), and 3 more that constantly break their tails open on our kennel walls whenever they come to visit. 

I'm not saying I'm opposed to leaving a dog's tail natural, especially on the normally docked breeds, I'm just saying I prefer the nub butt because for dogs who are prone to breaking their tails open later in life, it saves them a whole lot of pain and issues to just have it docked when they're a tiny puppy. Well, that's one of the reasons anyway, the rest I mentioned earlier. But that's all a matter of personal preference.


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## catahoulamom

I think what RFD meant was no wild dogs have floppy ears... it was something that came along with the domestication of dogs. (or maybe I'm wrong, and if so, sorry for putting words in your mouth RFD). 


Personally, I would never alter any animal for looks, although I do understand many breeds tails are docked for a reason (herding dogs, etc).

I LOVE my pits natural ears. I don't absolutely hate the look of cropped ears (I think it can look really stunning, Loki Love, your dog is beautiful) but I would never, ever alter my animal just for looks. Do I think people that do it are bad dog owners? No, I just don't like the idea of changing my dogs natural state for aesthetics (jeez, haven't we done enough of that through selective breeding?). 

Plus, I live in Miami-Dade. My pit *IS* legal (service dog), but I still try to avoid confrontation with prejudice people. Even if I did want to crop my dogs ears, it would be a dumb idea. People see cropped ears and, unfortunately, think *FIGHTING DOG FIGHTING DOG*!!! One of my customers has a dogo with cropped ears, one day the dog got loose, and was impounded at animal services as a pitbull, because of his cropped ears.

People are stupid.

Plus... isn't he perfect just the way he is? :tongue:


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## BrownieM

My sister's great dane has a crooked tail! It was accidentally slammed in the door at the breeder's as a puppy...hwell:


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## catahoulamom

BrownieM said:


> My sister's great dane has a crooked tail! It was accidentally slammed in the door at the breeder's as a puppy...hwell:


My pit has a crooked tail too! It was broken when he was a puppy, sometime before we rescued him. Doesn't seem to bother him at all. Just another thing that makes him unique...


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## RawFedDogs

Julie said:


> I think what RFD meant was no wild dogs have floppy ears... it was something that came along with the domestication of dogs. (or maybe I'm wrong, and if so, sorry for putting words in your mouth RFD).


What I meant was no animals in nature have floppy ears. Dogs developed floppy ears through selective breeding by humans. I think that's the same thing you are saying maybe. :smile:

Elephants don't have floppy ears. They stand out away from the body and don't hang over the ear opening. Elephants can voluntarily flap their ears for temperature control but they aren't floppy ears in the same way as some breeds of domestic dogs. :smile:


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## Ania's Mommy

RawFedDogs said:


> Hehe, Nope, what I meant was no animals in nature have floppy ears. Dogs developed floppy ears through selective breeding by humans. Elephants don't have floppy ears. They stand out away from the body and don't hang over the ear opening. Elephants can voluntarily flap their ears for temperature control but they aren't floppy ears in the same way as some breeds of domestic dogs. :smile:


I stand corrected. You skooled me again, Bill. :wink:


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## catahoulamom

Gotcha, Bill.  Makes sense!


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## thegoodstuff

I know this is an old thread but some fundamental points -

One of several ways dogs communicate with each other is by signaling with their tails and ears. 

Tails: Their eyes are more sensitive to movement than anything else. Tail signals, (movement and position) can be seen from a distance. Wolves have big bushy tails which are easily seen and the message a wolf is sending to another wolf is unmistakeable . No tail, no signal.

Ears: Prick ears are very easy to be read, and with less ambiguity from a distance. As has been said, lop ears dont exist outside of man's futzing around. Lop eared dogs are already at a disadvantage when using ear signals. Cut pieces off and the dog is further hindered in using his ears to send signals. Stubby, cropped ears can be interpreted as what prick ears look like on a dominant or aggressive dog.


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## Felix

rannmiller said:


> No evil tail to beat my legs to death or knock over everything on my coffee table or get shut in a door or broken on a wall corner. Might sound selfish but I'd rather have the tail removed when the dog is a tiny baby than when they bust it open constantly as adults and have to have it amputated.


In that case, every happy Lab, Golden Retriever and Pit bull I have met needs to have their tail removed ASAP as puppies. I had a Golden Retriever that would beat me every day with her tail when I came home, just made me love her even more, I never once thought of removing her tail. Just placing the items on my coffee table in a more strategic (yet fashionable) way


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## Tracy

thegoodstuff said:


> I know this is an old thread but some fundamental points -
> 
> One of several ways dogs communicate with each other is by signaling with their tails and ears.
> 
> Tails: Their eyes are more sensitive to movement than anything else. Tail signals, (movement and position) can be seen from a distance. Wolves have big bushy tails which are easily seen and the message a wolf is sending to another wolf is unmistakeable . No tail, no signal.
> 
> Ears: Prick ears are very easy to be read, and with less ambiguity from a distance. As has been said, lop ears dont exist outside of man's futzing around. Lop eared dogs are already at a disadvantage when using ear signals. Cut pieces off and the dog is further hindered in using his ears to send signals. Stubby, cropped ears can be interpreted as what prick ears look like on a dominant or aggressive dog.


I agree with this. I also think that tails are very useful for a dog's balance. You only have to watch a dog's tail when it's turning or swimming to see how much the tail does.


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## Chocx2

I have to put my thoughts in I rescued a doberman years ago, just a pup, and back then I thought the same thing why would anyone want to hurt a dog like that their floppy ears are so cute lol. 
My Aussie, I found out even though his tail was only a couple inches when born they cropped his tail even shorter, I think it affects the way he poos if had it to do over I would look for one without his tail cropped. I think its cruel.


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## Tracy

Our Bullmastiff had his back right leg removed due to a bone tumour. He lived for 19 months after the amputation. He was walking around within 24 hours and was running around that same week. His tail became his new back leg. He held it over to the right to help him balance, it was amazing to watch.


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## StdPooDad

I"m fortunate in that I have a good relationship with my breeder. I've gotten two std poos from her, both with undocked tails.
At least I think they're undocked. They might be docked long.
Joe



BrownieM said:


> I agree very much! I would love a poodle with an undocked tail but its quite difficult to find a reputable breeder in the United States who leaves the tails natural.


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## xchairity_casex

i like the look of show crops in dogs and some short crops in pit type dogs.

and i think the look of your dog does matter TO A POINT.
some people are fearful of certian "looking" breeds, so i would suggest HIGHLY those people not aquire one of those breeds as it would set the dog up to not trust the owner. example a person fearful of pitbull type dogs brings home a pitbull type puppy, that puppy grows up and the owner is fearful of the dog one day turning on them, so they tippy toe around disciplining the dog, the dog gets whatever it wants becuase the owner is nervous of "setting the dog off" you COULD end up with a dog who is a really mess with horrible manners and probably nippy and hyper and high strung.

as dumb as that is, its how people tend to do things.
i chose to buy from a breed who had the "look" of BT that i liked best, but that wasnt the ONLY reason i chose that perticular breeder, temperment came first, health second then looks 3rd.


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## StdPooDad

This is Seamus. I don't know if his tail is undocked, or just longer than normal for a poodle. Teaghan's is about the same.


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## kelii

I hate docking tails. It's a very important form of doggy communication. I also don't like ear cropping, but if someone does decide to do it, I think they should do a shorter crop. When I was a kid we had a boxer who's ears were cropped just short enough not to need taping. She healed in about a week without any fuss.


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## naturalfeddogs

kelii said:


> I hate docking tails. It's a very important form of doggy communication. I also don't like ear cropping, but if someone does decide to do it, I think they should do a shorter crop. When I was a kid we had a boxer who's ears were cropped just short enough not to need taping. She healed in about a week without any fuss.


Generally, ear cropping is done to breed standard. Therefore some breeds have longer crops. If cropping is going to be done, it should be done by a knowledgable vet. The crop will be done correctly to breed standard with minimal discomfort.


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## Tracy

schism said:


> Depending on the dog I like a docked tail and/or cropped ears. Ears aren't as important to me but a docked tail is. Dobermans for example I think look unnatural and kind of ugly with a tail... and Boxers... just an opinion.
> Same with Australian shepherds. Its ideal that they are born with a bob tail but if not... dock. They look strange with a tail.
> Then: I'm more for *if its your dog, it's your property. Do as you wish*. As long as the dog has proper anaesthetics/freezing (I know they usually dock without anything when the pups are very young) during the said procedures.
> This doesn't mean that I don't love ugly dogs! An ear crop or a docked tail isn't the deciding factor in how I choose a dog.
> My dog is a mutt and has both her tail and her ears intact


I'm in the UK, so frequently see boxers and dobes with tails. They're lovely, not ugly or weird. eace:


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## Tracy

You can't help what you like. :smile:

I do think tails really help with balance, especially when you've got an old dog with bad hips or arthritis.


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## Savage Destiny

kelii said:


> I hate docking tails. It's a very important form of doggy communication. I also don't like ear cropping, but if someone does decide to do it, I think they should do a shorter crop. When I was a kid we had a boxer who's ears were cropped just short enough not to need taping. She healed in about a week without any fuss.


Well then, I suppose you also hate all breeds born with naturally bobbed or tightly curled tails? They inhibit communication just as much. What about drop eared breeds? They can't communicate with their ears either.


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## thegoodstuff

Cutting ears and bobbing tails for aesthetics or vanity is just more of man's meddling. Only a few breeds have natural bobtails. I dont know how Nature handles the dog communication there.

"Tails are very important for dogs. *If a dog has a tail it means that it has a function".* Trying to make a case for surgically docking tails for cosmetic reasons is simply lame.

And this case for cropping ears sounds kinda feeble.


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## Savage Destiny

thegoodstuff said:


> Cutting ears and bobbing tails for aesthetics or vanity is just more of man's meddling. Only a few breeds have natural bobtails. I dont know how Nature handles the dog communication there.
> 
> "Tails are very important for dogs. *If a dog has a tail it means that it has a function".* Trying to make a case for surgically docking tails for cosmetic reasons is simply lame.
> 
> And this case for cropping ears sounds kinda feeble.


You've pretty obviously never dealt with a dog that had happy tail issues.


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## thegoodstuff

Savage Destiny said:


> You've pretty obviously never dealt with a dog that had happy tail issues.


Thats a medical problem, not cosmetic.


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## CoverTune

thegoodstuff said:


> "Tails are very important for dogs. *If a dog has a tail it means that it has a function".*


What about hunting dogs who have their tails docked for, from my understanding, safety reasons? Seems to me like docking a puppy is MUCH less traumatic and painful than injury and amputation in an adult dog (and yes, I have seen docking first-hand, and tail amputations).

I guess I'm a horrible person, but I definitely plan to have my Dobe cropped/docked when I get a puppy.


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## Kat

Cliffdog said:


> I adore Boxer dogs, they're one of my favorite breeds. It's not all brachycephalic dogs that I don't like the look of, just the squish-faced ones, with literally no muzzle to speak of. Pugs, etc. But I would own one, regardless, if it was the right dog for my home.


As an owner of two pugs, I just wanted to say... I love pugs as a breed, they are my breed. But, I do hate how breeding has ruined them, back even 100 years ago they had longer snouts. I do hate not being able to walk for long in the summer because of the risk of overheating, and also going out for long in really cold weather. Especially when owners of squishy faced breeds let them get overweight, it bothers me so much since pugs already have a hard time breathing as it is.


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## thegoodstuff

CoverTune said:


> I guess I'm a horrible person, but I definitely plan to have my Dobe cropped/docked when I get a puppy.





schism said:


> I will also be getting either a Doberman, American Staffordshire Terrier or a Boxer puppy in the future. The AmStaff would definitely be cropped and the Doberman and Boxer would definitely have its tail docked. Haven't quite decided which I'm going with but I have plenty of time to ponder it.


Congratulations to you both.


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## Savage Destiny

thegoodstuff said:


> Thats a medical problem, not cosmetic.


Which can be prevented in at-risk breeds by docking, which happens before a pup learns to rely on it's tail for balance and before the nervous system is even fully developed. Waiting until the dog destroys itself and doing an amputation is a lot more traumatic.


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## thegoodstuff

Savage Destiny said:


> Which can be prevented in at-risk breeds by docking, which happens before a pup learns to rely on it's tail for balance and before the nervous system is even fully developed. Waiting until the dog destroys itself and doing an amputation is a lot more traumatic.


I dont know the stats on the number of dogs that injure their tails that way, but large breed, short haired dogs are more prone to this injury. Just an observation but Riddle still has _her_ tail.





> Many people have looked to the AKC for its stance on tail docking (and ear cropping). The kennel club’s position remains that docking is an acceptable practice for defining and preserving breed character or enhancing good health. I can’t say that I agree chopping off my dog’s tail would do much for her character, and I would have a hard time determining whether she was happy about it. Most working and herding dogs have been repurposed over the past few centuries, and are now seen more often as show dogs or companion animals.
> 
> I could never consider cutting my own dog’s tail unless it was an absolute medical necessity.


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## Savage Destiny

thegoodstuff said:


> I dont know the stats on the number of dogs that injure their tails that way, but large breed, short haired dogs are more prone to this injury. Just an observation but Riddle still has _her_ tail.


Yup, and it's a huge pain. Literally and figuratively. She can't have a plastic crate because she'll bust her tail. She has to be carefully steered around the house when excited to avoid her tail hitting any walls, furniture, door frames, etc. The end of her tail is scarred, hairless, and usually scabbed over. If we're not 100% on top of things, she'll bust it and it's a bloodbath and our house looks like the scene of a murder. She busted it in my car one time and I drove around with blood smeared all over the back windows until I got home. It's loads of fun to try and bandage too! I won't put her through an amputation as an adult that takes a long, painful recovery and her learning how to walk without it. But if I had known (or had the opportunity) when she was 2-3 days old this would happen? Off would go the tail. 

And this is with a breed bred to keep the tail, so it's thicker and sturdier. Traditionally docked breeds like GSPs, Dobies, and Boxers have even thinner, more easily breakable tails. The only undocked Dobies and Boxers I've met have ended up requiring amputations. One poor girl had a split from the tip of her tail 1" down... split right down the middle from the tip. She was miserable.


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## thegoodstuff

Savage Destiny said:


> Yup, and it's a huge pain. Literally and figuratively. She can't have a plastic crate because she'll bust her tail. She has to be carefully steered around the house when excited to avoid her tail hitting any walls, furniture, door frames, etc. The end of her tail is scarred, hairless, and usually scabbed over. If we're not 100% on top of things, she'll bust it and it's a bloodbath and our house looks like the scene of a murder. She busted it in my car one time and I drove around with blood smeared all over the back windows until I got home. It's loads of fun to try and bandage too! I won't put her through an amputation as an adult that takes a long, painful recovery and her learning how to walk without it. But if I had known (or had the opportunity) when she was 2-3 days old this would happen? Off would go the tail.
> 
> And this is with a breed bred to keep the tail, so it's thicker and sturdier. Traditionally docked breeds like GSPs, Dobies, and Boxers have even thinner, more easily breakable tails. The only undocked Dobies and Boxers I've met have ended up requiring amputations. One poor girl had a split from the tip of her tail 1" down... split right down the middle from the tip. She was miserable.


That's a horror show. 

Keep in mind I have no experience with the problem and you are more of an expert than you ever wanted to be. I have a MacGyver streak a mile wide. With that in mind, theres gotta be a way to fix it. This is probably a stupid question but have you tried foam pipe insulation? If not, it comes in different inside diameters. I guess it would have to be in 2 stages, healing then protection. Its cut from end to end, as a start, you could open it and put the tail in it like a hot dog in a bun. I have a couple of half baked ideas what to do from there, but have you gone down that route yet? I gave it a test drive with some 3/4" on Nicky's tail. (it wasnt easy holding it there and taking the shot) It looks like it might have some potential. 

Or not.


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## Savage Destiny

thegoodstuff said:


> That's a horror show.
> 
> Keep in mind I have no experience with the problem and you are more of an expert than you ever wanted to be. I have a MacGyver streak a mile wide. With that in mind, theres gotta be a way to fix it. This is probably a stupid question but have you tried foam pipe insulation? If not, it comes in different inside diameters. I guess it would have to be in 2 stages, healing then protection. Its cut from end to end, as a start, you could open it and put the tail in it like a hot dog in a bun. I have a couple of half baked ideas what to do from there, but have you gone down that route yet? I gave it a test drive with some 3/4" on Nicky's tail. (it wasnt easy holding it there and taking the shot) It looks like it might have some potential.
> 
> Or not.


I've done stuff like that when it's really badly broken and had to be bandaged, but to prevent her from ever busting it she'd have to wear that 24/7. :lol: That's just not practical. Although it would be nice to be less whipped on my legs...


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## CorgiPaws

Savage Destiny said:


> I won't put her through an amputation as an adult that takes a long, painful recovery and her learning how to walk without it.


One of my adult Danes had happy tail for months that would not heal. 
I had her tail amputated at the recommendation of my vet. 
She seemed a little confused for a day or two, and then was completely back to normal, and she doesn't miss it at all. 
I think docking is FAR more humane than letting the poor dog continue to painfully injure themselves. Adult dockings aren't really THAT big of a deal. I asked a lot of questions about recovery before having it done, and seriously... compared to continual injury it was a piece of cake. 
I can't imagine CHOOSING to let my dog be in pain. 

And she certainly didn't need to "learn to walk" again.


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## Savage Destiny

CorgiPaws said:


> One of my adult Danes had happy tail for months that would not heal.
> I had her tail amputated at the recommendation of my vet.
> She seemed a little confused for a day or two, and then was completely back to normal, and she doesn't miss it at all.
> I think docking is FAR more humane than letting the poor dog continue to painfully injure themselves. Adult dockings aren't really THAT big of a deal. I asked a lot of questions about recovery before having it done, and seriously... compared to continual injury it was a piece of cake.
> I can't imagine CHOOSING to let my dog be in pain.
> 
> And she certainly didn't need to "learn to walk" again.


Thanks for implying that I'm abusing my dog, but we've got this pretty well under control. She rarely busts it anymore because we have a routine down. Sure, it's a pain for us to steer her around the house when she's happy, but I'm not putting her through another surgery when we can manage it for the most part. She has enough surgeries under her belt, she's gone through enough without me putting her through more when, again, we can manage it. 

How does the view look from up there on your high horse anyway?


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## zontee

i dock tails because lots of puppys in my breed have kinks in their tails and you cant leave a tail on that goes off in a strange angle. when i had dobes i took tails off because i had a friend that left the tail on her dobe and it broke as an adult then it was a big vet bill and lots of pain for the poor dog. the puppys really dont seem to be bothered by it if you do it when they first come out they dont even react. 

as far as ear croping i have had croped dogs and natural and i think its a personal choice.

people fighting ear croping wont change lots of breeders from doing it. now that it is unacceptable for vets to do it it now costs breeders 600 bucks a puppy so some people dont even use a vet for it. so what sounds safer doing it in a vets office or doing it on a kitchen table??


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## CorgiPaws

Savage Destiny said:


> Yup, and it's a huge pain. Literally and figuratively.





Savage Destiny said:


> She can't have a plastic crate because she'll bust her tail.





Savage Destiny said:


> *The end of her tail is scarred, hairless, and usually scabbed over.*





Savage Destiny said:


> If we're not 100% on top of things, she'll bust it and it's a bloodbath and our house looks like the scene of a murder.





Savage Destiny said:


> I've done stuff like that *when it's really badly broken *





Savage Destiny said:


> to prevent her from ever busting it she'd have to wear that 24/7. :lol: That's just not practical.


These statements, particularly the bold, made it sound like your dog lives with a fairly constant injury. One that requires a lot of care, and that you claimed was not even practical to prevent future injury of. It makes it sound like it's not a rare occasion for it to be "really badly broken" (YOUR words, not mine) and again... not practical to prevent. 
I KNOW how happy tail works. I've battled it. When it busts, it is not healed again in a day or two. My girl's tail amputation was literally like 24 hours and she was completely back to normal, and within a couple days it was completely closed, stitches removed, and a done deal never to be worried about again. The healing time for the amputation was LESS than any time she whacked it open. It makes more sense to me to just amputate and then NEVER have to worry about it again. The pain, the annoyance, the possibility of an infection.... totally preventable. 



Savage Destiny said:


> Thanks for implying that I'm abusing my dog


Let me make it clear that this is not what I'm implying. I don't think that, nor am I trying to say it. *I* had the wrong idea about amputation before I talked with my vet about it, I thought it would be a big traumatic event that she'd have to seriously adjust to, but found out this simply isn't the case. Now, after experiencing it and talking with SEVERAL other Dane owners who had the same problem, and knowing that MOST dogs literally bounce right back to normal really quickly, I DO think it's the most humane thing to do... but I certainly don't think you're abusive. I let Zailey's go on far too long with the exact thoughts you seem to have and now regret not having it done sooner so she didn't have to hurt. 



Savage Destiny said:


> She rarely busts it anymore because we have a routine down. Sure, it's a pain for us to steer her around the house when she's happy, but I'm not putting her through another surgery when we can manage it for the most part.


That's fantastic! I'm really happy for you, because I know what a pain in the butt happy tail is. I have a pretty open floor plan, but she would just FIND things to whack it on, I swear. But, can you see how YOUR previous posts made it seem like a REALLY constant problem. Reading them I had this image of a dog constantly in pain, constantly whacking it open and bleeding everywhere. That was how your posts came across to me. 

You also made docking out to be a huge deal, like it would be a terrible choice. I can honestly say that she was completely unaffected by it. She was no more unsteady than she has been any other time she's been under. Re learn to walk? Ha. Not at all. My vet has not seen a case of that, either. It was a quick, simple, low-risk surgery that prevented future inevitable pain and suffering. To ME, it's a complete win. 

I don't know your dog. I don't spend all day online. If your dog is old, or has problems with being under then I don't know that. Mine was a healthy 1 year old. I don't LIKE my dogs going under. It makes me nervous. But, I don't like them being in pain either and like I said, your posts made it SEEM pretty constant. 



Savage Destiny said:


> How does the view look from up there on your high horse anyway?


Fantastic passive-aggressive touch. 



zontee said:


> people fighting ear croping wont change lots of breeders from doing it. now that it is unacceptable for vets to do it it now costs breeders 600 bucks a puppy so some people dont even use a vet for it. so what sounds safer doing it in a vets office or doing it on a kitchen table??


I don't fight ear cropping. I think it's really effing stupid... but I don't fight it in any way. 
But it sickens me to know there are people who care SO much what their dog's ears LOOK like that they'd take it into their own hands. 
Those people deserve to be shot.


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## Georgiapeach

I love boxers and poodles, and prefer them docked. I prefer natural ears on my boxer - most pet owners are leaving them natural nowadays, but of course, they're still cropped for the show ring. There's a move afoot to engineer the smooshed nosed breeds to have longer noses to facilitate easier breathing in several breeds. I agree with this, as well. If judges would reflect this in their judging, it would speed this along.


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## Savage Destiny

CorgiPaws said:


> These statements, particularly the bold, made it sound like your dog lives with a fairly constant injury. One that requires a lot of care, and that you claimed was not even practical to prevent future injury of. It makes it sound like it's not a rare occasion for it to be "really badly broken" (YOUR words, not mine) and again... not practical to prevent.
> I KNOW how happy tail works. I've battled it. When it busts, it is not healed again in a day or two. My girl's tail amputation was literally like 24 hours and she was completely back to normal, and within a couple days it was completely closed, stitches removed, and a done deal never to be worried about again. The healing time for the amputation was LESS than any time she whacked it open. It makes more sense to me to just amputate and then NEVER have to worry about it again. The pain, the annoyance, the possibility of an infection.... totally preventable.
> 
> 
> Let me make it clear that this is not what I'm implying. I don't think that, nor am I trying to say it. *I* had the wrong idea about amputation before I talked with my vet about it, I thought it would be a big traumatic event that she'd have to seriously adjust to, but found out this simply isn't the case. Now, after experiencing it and talking with SEVERAL other Dane owners who had the same problem, and knowing that MOST dogs literally bounce right back to normal really quickly, I DO think it's the most humane thing to do... but I certainly don't think you're abusive. I let Zailey's go on far too long with the exact thoughts you seem to have and now regret not having it done sooner so she didn't have to hurt.
> 
> 
> That's fantastic! I'm really happy for you, because I know what a pain in the butt happy tail is. I have a pretty open floor plan, but she would just FIND things to whack it on, I swear. But, can you see how YOUR previous posts made it seem like a REALLY constant problem. Reading them I had this image of a dog constantly in pain, constantly whacking it open and bleeding everywhere. That was how your posts came across to me.
> 
> You also made docking out to be a huge deal, like it would be a terrible choice. I can honestly say that she was completely unaffected by it. She was no more unsteady than she has been any other time she's been under. Re learn to walk? Ha. Not at all. My vet has not seen a case of that, either. It was a quick, simple, low-risk surgery that prevented future inevitable pain and suffering. To ME, it's a complete win.
> 
> I don't know your dog. I don't spend all day online. If your dog is old, or has problems with being under then I don't know that. Mine was a healthy 1 year old. I don't LIKE my dogs going under. It makes me nervous. But, I don't like them being in pain either and like I said, your posts made it SEEM pretty constant.
> 
> 
> Fantastic passive-aggressive touch.


You've picked apart my posts to make them sound like what you want to hear. You seem not to notice that I use the words "IF we're not 100% on top of it" or "WHEN it's really badly broken". Not all the time. The scars and hairless-ness are from when she was young and we didn't have a routine, and were considering amputation. She doesn't have a plastic crate anymore. It WAS a really big deal until we got the routine down, and sure, it's a pain to have to be so careful all the time. And yeah, as I said, if she could have been docked as a puppy I probably would have done it. 

But I won't put her through a surgery for something we can manage. Yes, it's a pain. Sure, she still busts it if we get lax. Anesthesia makes her nervous and anxious for days. She panics when she has to be left for surgery. Even if she didn't, I would never put a dog through surgery for something I can manage for the most part. And maybe your dogs don't use their tails much, but Riddle does. She's very active and I see her using it for balance when climbing all the time. Maybe your dogs don't swim, but Riddle does, and she uses her tail a LOT during swimming. Now, if she had been tailless since puppyhood and learned to swim and climb without it, that would be one thing. But I won't throw her off unless I have to. 

Yeah, I got irritated with you. I'm still irritated. I don't like it even kind of implied that I don't do the best thing possible for my dogs or that I just haven't done research.


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## CorgiPaws

Savage Destiny said:


> You've picked apart my posts to make them sound like what you want to hear. You seem not to notice that I use the words "IF we're not 100% on top of it" or "WHEN it's really badly broken". Not all the time. The scars and hairless-ness are from when she was young and we didn't have a routine, and were considering amputation. She doesn't have a plastic crate anymore. It WAS a really big deal until we got the routine down, and sure, it's a pain to have to be so careful all the time. And yeah, as I said, if she could have been docked as a puppy I probably would have done it.
> 
> But I won't put her through a surgery for something we can manage. Yes, it's a pain. Sure, she still busts it if we get lax. Anesthesia makes her nervous and anxious for days. She panics when she has to be left for surgery. Even if she didn't, I would never put a dog through surgery for something I can manage for the most part. And maybe your dogs don't use their tails much, but Riddle does. She's very active and I see her using it for balance when climbing all the time. Maybe your dogs don't swim, but Riddle does, and she uses her tail a LOT during swimming. Now, if she had been tailless since puppyhood and learned to swim and climb without it, that would be one thing. But I won't throw her off unless I have to.
> 
> Yeah, I got irritated with you. I'm still irritated. I don't like it even kind of implied that I don't do the best thing possible for my dogs or that I just haven't done research.


I saw several posts about this awful beat up tail. That;s it. You didn't mention a routine or it not being a problem until after the fact. 
My dogs are very active, and Zailey (my docked Dane) isn't nicknamed River Monster for no reason. Her swimming abilities haven't been hindered. NOTHING has been hindered. She's fine. You make it out like someone having their dog undergo surgery is terrible. 

I did not imply that you don't take care of your dog. Like I said, your posts were all talking about this awful happy tail. I don't doubt you're a great dog owner. I'm not sure what research you did that led you to the belief that adult tail amputations leaves dogs unable to walk or be active. It makes more sense now that you've clarified that her tail isn't constantly badly broken and spewing blood everywhere. 

If you've chosen to be irritated then... well, that sucks.


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## Savage Destiny

CorgiPaws said:


> I saw several posts about this awful beat up tail. That;s it. You didn't mention a routine or it not being a problem until after the fact.
> My dogs are very active, and Zailey (my docked Dane) isn't nicknamed River Monster for no reason. Her swimming abilities haven't been hindered. NOTHING has been hindered. She's fine. You make it out like someone having their dog undergo surgery is terrible.
> 
> I did not imply that you don't take care of your dog. Like I said, your posts were all talking about this awful happy tail. I don't doubt you're a great dog owner. I'm not sure what research you did that led you to the belief that adult tail amputations leaves dogs unable to walk or be active. It makes more sense now that you've clarified that her tail isn't constantly badly broken and spewing blood everywhere.
> 
> If you've chosen to be irritated then... well, that sucks.


Actually, there was a SINGLE post about it, not several. The second was a "thanks for the idea but we've got it down". As a matter of fact, I mentioned that we had routines for steering her around the house in that one single post. The rest of my posts have been defending myself against you telling me what's best for my dog that you don't know. 

I think that you just want to see what you want to see, because you're certainly making a big deal out of this. 

And yes, I do think putting a dog through surgery that's not absolutely necessary is terrible. Surgery is dangerous. Dogs die during routine surgeries all the time. If you couldn't manage the happy tail, fine. It's worth it for you. But since I can manage my dog's happy tail, I'm not putting her through a surgery and putting her at risk.


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## CorgiPaws

Savage Destiny said:


> Actually, there was a SINGLE post about it, not several. The second was a "thanks for the idea but we've got it down". As a matter of fact, I mentioned that we had routines for steering her around the house in that one single post. The rest of my posts have been defending myself against you telling me what's best for my dog that you don't know.
> 
> I think that you just want to see what you want to see, because you're certainly making a big deal out of this.
> 
> And yes, I do think putting a dog through surgery that's not absolutely necessary is terrible. Surgery is dangerous. Dogs die during routine surgeries all the time. If you couldn't manage the happy tail, fine. It's worth it for you. But since I can manage my dog's happy tail, I'm not putting her through a surgery and putting her at risk.


I really think you're taking my posts the wrong way. 
I already told you I was under a different impression before and you clarified and that was that. 
I could choose to be offended by your saying surgery is awful and choose to think that it's some violent attack against me, like you seem to be taking my opinion.... But that's a waste of energy and a good morning. 
I already complimented that I absolutely think you're a good owner.
Not really sure what more you want from me. I mistook the situation, owned that... And you're still choosing to be snippy. 
I'm over it.


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## thegoodstuff

Savage Destiny said:


> I've done stuff like that when it's really badly broken and had to be bandaged, but to prevent her from ever busting it she'd have to wear that 24/7. :lol: That's just not practical. Although it would be nice to be less whipped on my legs...


Serious question: Lets say there was something that



was easy to put on and take off
stayed on without taping or wrapping 
was almost bullet proof in terms of effective protection
caused no discomfort
came in several chic designer colors

does it sound like something you would use?

You wouldnt have to keep it on every minute, it could be used just in higher risk situations, like in the crate or watching Hotel For Dogs the 27th time.





:behindsofa: please dont hurt me


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## Savage Destiny

thegoodstuff said:


> Serious question: Lets say there was something that
> 
> 
> 
> was easy to put on and take off
> stayed on without taping or wrapping
> was almost bullet proof in terms of effective protection
> caused no discomfort
> came in several chic designer colors
> 
> does it sound like something you would use?
> 
> You wouldnt have to keep it on every minute, it could be used just in higher risk situations, like in the crate or watching Hotel For Dogs the 27th time.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> :behindsofa: please dont hurt me


If it really stayed on, wasn't a pain in the rear, and didn't bother her at all, sure, I'd use something like that. I'll bet a ton of other people with dogs that had happy tail problems would too.


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## kady05

CorgiPaws said:


> I don't fight ear cropping. I think it's really effing stupid... but I don't fight it in any way.
> But it sickens me to know there are people who care SO much what their dog's ears LOOK like that they'd take it into their own hands.
> *Those people deserve to be shot.*


Umm, really? So you think every member of this forum who has a dog with cropped ears should be shot? That's a lovely way for a Moderator (of all people) to act.


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## Celt

I don't think that CorgiPaws meant everybody who have a dog with cropped ears. I think she was saying the doofuses who do the "job" at home, i.e. taking it into their own hands. There's quite a few people who don't see a reason to pay so much money when they could do it themselves, so I'm sure that having the surgery "banned" wouldn't stop some people who want a certain look.


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## kady05

Celt said:


> I don't think that CorgiPaws meant everybody who have a dog with cropped ears. I think she was saying the doofuses who do the "job" at home, i.e. taking it into their own hands. There's quite a few people who don't see a reason to pay so much money when they could do it themselves, so I'm sure that having the surgery "banned" wouldn't stop some people who want a certain look.


Well yes, anyone who does it themselves, or has some person do it in the garage is an idiot, but the way it was stated made it seem like that anyone who got their dogs ears cropped should be shot. Perhaps I interpreted the wrong way, I hope so.


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## catahoulamom

CorgiPaws said:


> *I don't fight ear cropping*. I think it's really effing stupid... but I don't fight it in any way.
> But it sickens me to know there are people who care SO much what their dog's ears LOOK like that they'd *take it into their own hands. * [do it themselves]
> _Those_ people deserve to be shot.


Doesn't sound like she's attacking anyone on this forum to me.


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## CorgiPaws

Oh dear!
I didn't mean ANYTHING against people who have their dogs cropped by a professional! I don't like ear cropping, but I think people should be allowed to decide for their own dogs. 
I was talking about the people that do it on their kitchen table with no proper medical supplies, it sickens me people would be THAT desperate to have cropped ears that they would seriously do something that horrific! 
I was not in any way trying to attack everyone here with cropped dogs. To each their own.
But an at home job? No anesthesia? No pain management? kitchen knives? That's downright cruelty.


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## naturalfeddogs

Linsey, you did state in your post "do it themselves". I don't think anyone was offened. It was just misread.


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## thegoodstuff

Savage Destiny said:


> I've done stuff like that when it's really badly broken and had to be bandaged, but to prevent her from ever busting it she'd have to wear that 24/7. :lol: That's just not practical. Although it would be nice to be less whipped on my legs...


Is there _any_ length of tail at the end that does not get injured or is just 'bruised', or does the injury/laceration/bleeding site always start from the very end?


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## Savage Destiny

thegoodstuff said:


> Is there _any_ length of tail at the end that does not get injured or is just 'bruised', or does the injury/laceration/bleeding site always start from the very end?


Kind of hard to describe, but it's the sides of her tail that bust. She has thin strips of hair on the top, bottom, and very tip of the tail, but the sides are bald and scarred. The sides are what bust open and bleed, if that makes any sense... I can try to get a pic if that would be helpful. I think it's different for every dog too.


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## thegoodstuff

Yeah, a pic would be good. And put something next to it like a quarter to give an idea of the scale.

____________________________________

For the healing phase, have you tried laser treatment or EMT gel? 


Tried this? A finger isnt much different from the end of a tail in size and shape, but there is a hand and a wrist at the end of a finger. Maybe this fancy tie-off could be some how modified to work on a tail. There is a wire cage under the gauze that acts as a splint.






What if the strips of the bandage wove around the tail a few inches and then you put a nice fat knot at the end of it and coban it to the tail with the knot sticking out- the knot acts like the wrist/hand-it cant move down and the tube stays on. Maybe the coban wouldnt have to be too tight for it to work. Then maybe coban doesnt act on fur the way it does on skin.


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## RiverRun

Im jumping in the middle and putting my two sense in here.

I have also had this debate with many people, my family included. I am not against docking/cropping per say, but I rather dislike it. If the pup has already been docked/cropped when he comes to me, that's fine; but I would never pay to have it done and given the choice I would choose the natural pup. I have seen/helped with both cropping and docking; there is not a surgery/procedure around that is pain free. I see no reason to put a pup through that just for looks. If it is a working dog, I could understand the reasons to protect a tail, but cosmetics are not necessary. IMO, you should NOT have to alter a dog to make it look better. If breeders are striving to produce a prettier dog, they should do it by selective breeding, not surgery....then again, looks dont matter. A pretty dog could be an unhealthy dog. I, myself, look for a balanced dog. I want a dog that looks sound in their mind and body, that has the stature to be able to handle hard work and rough terrain without being injured easily. Who cares if the dog looks good, as long as their mind and body are healthy that is all I care about.


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## thegoodstuff

I wasnt really trying devise a solution, I just made it look that way.


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