# How to Transition off of Chicken and Rice



## OldGnarlHead (Feb 17, 2016)

So Cricket has been on chicken and rice after her butt-splosion. The vet suggested this for 3 days an then to transition back to raw. The vet said if we have any kibble left that it could be used as a transition (we do still have some Orijen left but I really don't want to do that). I was thinking of starting to give her rice with some raw and decrease the rice until its all raw? Or do cooked chicken and rice with some uncooked in it that we could use and slowly add in more raw? Or just fast for 12 hours and start with a small raw meal again. It's so confusing!


----------



## naturalfeddogs (Jan 6, 2011)

Go right into it like you would of coming off kibble. Start back over slow, and build up again. If you try to mix all this stuff in with the raw, you are likely to be back where you just came from. A confused digestive system.


----------



## OldGnarlHead (Feb 17, 2016)

So nothing for 12 hours and then a small raw meal? I'm just worried about starting small and only chicken again because she lost another pound and she is getting so skinny I'm getting afraid of what would happen if she looses more. We also have two weeks worth of meals prepped with chicken and turkey, would that be okay to start with?


----------



## naturalfeddogs (Jan 6, 2011)

Yea, chicken and turkey should be fine, but you have to start slow and in small amounts or you are going to be right back where you just were. 

You don't have to fast if you don't want. I think you will be fine since you were on a bland diet already, not kibble.


----------



## OldGnarlHead (Feb 17, 2016)

How small though? I don't think we can keep her on anything less than 16oz (which is 2.5% for her current weight) or she's going to loose too much more weight. We can already see all of her vertebra and almost all of her ribs and her shoulder blades, and her hips just started to poke out.. She's also been losing gobs of fur. We don't know if she's just shedding or what but she leaves piles of fur everywhere she goes and on us... We've been throwing around the idea of putting her back on kibble just so she can put some weight back on and then start over from scratch.. It's really upsetting because I really want our puppy to be fine and I really want the raw feeding to work and it's really frustrating because I know it's me that's making the mistakes not her or her body..


----------



## naturalfeddogs (Jan 6, 2011)

Start with a chicken quarter for a day or two, and if that's ok go with another. Do like you did in the beginning before when you first started, but you shouldn't have to take quite so long between proteins. You know where the problem started, so be most cautious at that point. But you should be able to move along pretty well until then.


----------



## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

the one area i would not ask a vet would be in relation to nutrition.

chicken and rice will do more to upset the gut balance of a dog on raw food than anything else.

instead, i would have suggested trying bentonite clay for a week or so, until the stools go back to normal.......you can feed chicken/rabbit/turkey which are more gentle than red meat....and then gradually intro red meat again in very small amounts......we tend to start with a fingernail size piece of red meat and very slowly increase......depending on the age of the dog


----------



## OldGnarlHead (Feb 17, 2016)

Like feeding just bentonite clay? Or with her meals? Cause we did that and her poops started to get better but they got so bad that we just couldn't not go to the vet anymore... Diarrhea for over a month made us so uncomfortable, too. We only have chicken and turkey in the way of non-red meat right now. We have chicken, beef, pork, turkey, goose, venison, and lamb on hand for now. And okay. Ill go slow with everything. She was fine on pork before and I intend on keeping her on a lot of it when she gets back to it... We're so uncomfortable with her weight it's really bothering us both.


----------



## naturalfeddogs (Jan 6, 2011)

Can you post pictures of her?


----------



## OtherGuy (Nov 30, 2016)

The vet prescribed anti-inflammatories and antibotics to reduce suspected irritation in Cricket's GI tract.

The things most likely to cause irritation of the GI tract are either too much bone or too much unchewed bone passing through the intestines. This is consistent with the boney stools that have been frequently reported and the multiple episodes of diarrhea. 

I'd listen to the dog's problems. And not to follow the same path expecting different results.

The vet was spot-on IMO in assertaining the root of the problem. I don't like the solutions of antibotics and feeding rice and chicken more than anyone else but it is clear to me this dog needed a break.

I'd change the path coming off this latest episode or would suspect the problems will return.

Changes I'd make:

Feed one a day. 10% bone meals (at most). Meat cushions intestines, so I would advise not doing a bone heavy meal and a boneless meal in a twice a day feeding regiment. Avoiding any bone-heavy meals will lessen irritation of the GI tract. And one a day is better for raw fed dogs (perhaps toys excepted) in any case.

I'd try to ensure that the dog is chewing by either hand feeding bone-in pieces or by serving bone-in piece frozen so the dog can't take one, two, or three chomps and swallow large unchewed chunks of bone. A frozen piece needs chewing.

In the transition I'd be tempted to feed a lot of eggs (with shells) instead of bone-in chicken. Egg protein is easiest to digest and you get calcium in the shell. I'd cook the whites untill just set in this case, either frying or soft boiling (leaving the yokes raw/near-raw).

I would not serve only chicken or turkey as I believe that is part of the problem. I disagree that there is a need to transition to other meat options items and that since the dog is clearly struggling with an irritated GI tract from too much bone (or badly chewed bone) passing through the intestines better to have more boneless protein.

My 2 cents.

Bill


----------



## OldGnarlHead (Feb 17, 2016)

Listen, we started feeding her once a day and her diarrhea got so, so, so much worse, like almost back to the beginning worse. I don't know how many more times I have to say that her bone percentage is 10%. It's actually even _less_ than 10% because the 10% that is supposed to be organ in normal PMR ratios is just meat right now. Not to mention that eggs give her horrible diarrhea, cooked or uncooked. Listen, I understand that what you are saying might work for your dogs, but not ours. Everything you suggest, besides the bone percentage which we have been doing anyway and have stated _multiple times_, would make or has made things worse. Yes, I will get pictures and post. Her nails are also starting to shred and her sternum has just become much more noticeable..









Pictures aren't great and don't show how badly her back shows, her hackles were up a bit from another dog barking outside.


----------



## naturalfeddogs (Jan 6, 2011)

OtherGuy said:


> The vet prescribed anti-inflammatories and antibotics to reduce suspected irritation in Cricket's GI tract.
> 
> The things most likely to cause irritation of the GI tract are either too much bone or too much unchewed bone passing through the intestines. This is consistent with the boney stools that have been frequently reported and the multiple episodes of diarrhea.
> 
> ...


This started with too much beef and organs. Not chicken or turkey. The dog was fine with those, from what I remember.

And I disagree about the eggs. She'll go right back to where she came from. She found out from experience....


----------



## OtherGuy (Nov 30, 2016)

Cricket looks fine, for what it's worth. 

Not unduly thin IMO. The amount of "tuck" in the overhead shot is about what one would hope to see in a raw fed dog.

As to being "fine" on Chicken and Turkey Jenny, I've read the story from before day one. It has been very rough going for this dog IMO and not unpredictable. I have a very strong difference of oponion on how to start a dog and these sorts of results are why I don't share support for a very bone-heavy progession.

I hope you don't mind my offering an alternative viewpoint.

Bill


----------



## OldGnarlHead (Feb 17, 2016)

She does honestly look fine in the pictures to me. I think the pictures definitely don't show how badly her ribs back look, especially outside in the sun..

And her transition hasn't been bone heavy! As I JUST said her meals are at 10% if not less and have been since like day 3 when we stopped feeding whole chicken quarters! It honestly just seems like you're hell bent on making it seem like your way is the only way for everyone even when the person who you're advising has been doing that the whole time! The only time we've given more or less bone is when her poops got bony or soft, just like *everyone* else does! Maybe if there were more people advocating "The raw transition is a lie!" "Organs from day one!" and so on, we might believe you, but since a) you're the ONLY one I've ever seen saying this and b) our dog doesn't have a iron gut, I'm not just going to follow everything you say! Especially when we have in one regard and it made things worse!


----------



## naturalfeddogs (Jan 6, 2011)

Out of all those pictures, Crickett looks fine. I think starting back over you will be fine. She actually looks like just about all other raw fed dogs I have seen. If you get any pictures that show different please post them, but from it looks like things are fine.


----------



## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

your dog looks perfectly fine. 
she looks different than a kibble fed dog, but great for a raw fed dog.

how much does she weigh again? and how much exercise is she getting? and how much are you feeding per meal?

i'm sorry to keep pounding on and on about this, but you're too concerned with numbers and weight.

she is supposed to be lean...and yes, you should be able to see outlines of bone.....

once a dog gets cannon butt, the intestines are irritated...i doubt if the cause is from too much bone.
the intestinal lining has a mucosa to protect it from high acid, shards of bone and other things dogs eat, like bark or branches.

if this were my dog, i'd be feeding 1.5% of ideal weight.....i'd start over. wipe the slate clean

as to the chicken and rice? it's never been a good thing for dogs, but it is great for humans, allegedly. even that is being questioned by those who think the old ways are
simply not right.

an irritated gut does not require antibiotics...if anything, antibiotics, being harsh, will make things worse...and did.

i remember being where you are........i gave my dogs cannon butt and in the same way you did, i think.

it's all fine and well to give you advice and we go back to our lives, but you are right. this is your dog.

i can only say that hundreds of thousands can't all be wrong and that's what we are seeing with raw feeding.

some people make it very difficult and calculating....many of us don't anymore.....and, even though i weigh things out or my dogs would all be ottomans, i don't adhere to
what vets say, because they are often wrong........and do my own research.....

start over......


----------



## naturalfeddogs (Jan 6, 2011)

OtherGuy said:


> Cricket looks fine, for what it's worth.
> 
> Not unduly thin IMO. The amount of "tuck" in the overhead shot is about what one would hope to see in a raw fed dog.
> 
> ...


Kells herself said it started with too much beef and organ.....


----------



## naturalfeddogs (Jan 6, 2011)

And I agree with magicre, starting over is going to be your best bet.


----------



## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

bill, everyone has their way of starting things and no one is saying you're wrong.

it might not be my way or someone else's way, but it's a way.

this dog was never started the way i would now.........and did not respond well to whatever was done before we all jumped in.....

i really do think this dog needs to start over with less food.....


----------



## OtherGuy (Nov 30, 2016)

OldGnarlHead said:


> She does honestly look fine in the pictures to me. I think the pictures definitely don't show how badly her ribs back look, especially outside in the sun..
> 
> And her transition hasn't been bone heavy! As I JUST said her meals are at 10% if not less and have been since like day 3 when we stopped feeding whole chicken quarters! It honestly just seems like you're hell bent on making it seem like your way is the only way for everyone even when the person who you're advising has been doing that the whole time! The only time we've given more or less bone is when her poops got bony or soft, just like *everyone* else does! Maybe if there were more people advocating "The raw transition is a lie!" "Organs from day one!" and so on, we might believe you, but since a) you're the ONLY one I've ever seen saying this and b) our dog doesn't have a iron gut, I'm not just going to follow everything you say! Especially when we have in one regard and it made things worse!


OGD, I'm sorry to say but you are misinformed that "everyone" supports the sort of transition you've followed. I've been a long time member of another board (where Jenny is also a moderator) and over the years many members have voiced our strong disagreement with the bone-heavy "Quick Start Guide" published on that forum. Several of us have asked if we could revise that guide since many of our posts were spent convincing people NOT to follow the advice in that guide, or was spent dealing with the consequences of people dealing with the types of problems you are dealing with (because they did follow the Guide advice).

People have reached out to see if we could put up an alternative Guide but no response ever came from the website owners.

I had emails as recently as last week from a frustrated member who'd thrown up her hands at the lack of response.

That site is slow now (I saw you are a member) but many people came through who were guided to a more balanced start and none had the sort of difficulties you've had. In contrast those who followed the Guide and fed backs, necks, and quarters almost all ended up with cannon-butt.

It is precisely because your dog has a sensitive stomach that I offer an alternative (and gentler path). Irritation of the GI tract (which the Vet is treating) is evidence of a problem with bone. Either too much bone or insufficiently chewed bone. I offered suggestions (hand-feed or feed frozen) for how to improve chewing earlier. Heavy bone in stool (which you've also reported) is further evidence of the same problem.

I've never said "the raw transition is a lie." To the contrary, I urge people to ease the transition by iniatially reducing fat, as dogs need to be conditioned to metabolizing fats after being on all kibble (high carb) diets. Moving from one protein to another makes sense in eliminating issues of food intolerances or allegies, but has little other value.

The progression of chicken to turkey makes little sense to me as most turkey is problematic. The bone is often not soft edible bone, and most turkey has too much sodium ("enhanced") which causes diahrrea. Even clean turkey offers little nutritionally that chicken does not.

Pork as an early protein is problematic as most cheap pork cuts are very fatty. That fat is desirable once a dog is tranistioned to fat burning (IMO the critical "transition") but can promote diarrhea in untransitioned dogs.

Delay on organs denys critical nutrients and promotes food aversions. I've seen too many dogs started on organs early who never had difficulties and love organs, and too many delayed that have aversions and issues to agree with the advice to delay. I know many people who have done th same. Trust me I'm not alone.

Don't mistake that because I'm a lone voice (out a small handful on this forum) that there aren't many raw feeders who feel the way I do, as that belief ain't the case.

Bill


----------



## OldGnarlHead (Feb 17, 2016)

Bill, you literally said that you thought the transition wasn't necessary unless you were trying to figure out a food sensitivity. I can try and find the post if you want, but I distinctly remember you saying that. And for the laaasttt friggin time she is not bone heavy. 10%. On the dot. For like the past month actually less than that. Which I've also already said. And you've ignored. We don't feed her much turkey bone, and the turkey is not enhanced. At all. We check. Dilligently. 

She is now 38 lbs, doesn't get nearly as much exercise as she used to because it's been very cold lately. She gets 2.5% of her weight which is 16 oz (which is supposed to be the amount for weight maintenance). Outlines of bones are fine, yeah, but not the whole actual bone, as far as I know, and you can see a lot of hers, and we're all super uncomfortable with the rate at which she has been losing weight., 

So if she hasn't been started the way any of you would have started her, even though I've done what I thought was the normal way to start them and have read everywhere I have looked, how should I restart her. Because I am beyond frustrated and stressed and want nothing more in the whole entire world than to have her be completely transitioned so that I can stop freaking out and worrying about my first puppy. We've been feeding 90/10 meat/bone (and super crazy small amounts of chicken liver) up until the rice and chicken. The meals we have portioned for the next two weeks are 90/10 meat/bone/super small amounts of chicken liver, 16 oz, and a mix of chicken and turkey.


----------



## OtherGuy (Nov 30, 2016)

OldGnarlHead said:


> Bill, you literally said that you thought the transition wasn't necessary unless you were trying to figure out a food sensitivity. I can try and find the post if you want, but I distinctly remember you saying that. And for the laaasttt friggin time she is not bone heavy. 10%. On the dot. For like the past month actually less than that. Which I've also already said. And you've ignored. We don't feed her much turkey bone, and the turkey is not enhanced. At all. We check. Dilligently.
> 
> She is now 38 lbs, doesn't get nearly as much exercise as she used to because it's been very cold lately. She gets 2.5% of her weight which is 16 oz (which is supposed to be the amount for weight maintenance). Outlines of bones are fine, yeah, but not the whole actual bone, as far as I know, and you can see a lot of hers, and we're all super uncomfortable with the rate at which she has been losing weight.,
> 
> So if she hasn't been started the way any of you would have started her, even though I've done what I thought was the normal way to start them and have read everywhere I have looked, how should I restart her. Because I am beyond frustrated and stressed and want nothing more in the whole entire world than to have her be completely transitioned so that I can stop freaking out and worrying about my first puppy. We've been feeding 90/10 meat/bone (and super crazy small amounts of chicken liver) up until the rice and chicken. The meals we have portioned for the next two weeks are 90/10 meat/bone/super small amounts of chicken liver, 16 oz, and a mix of chicken and turkey.


OGD, I don't believe the sort of elaborate and extended transistitions between different proteins is necessary, nor do I believe in a magical order such as chicken>turkey>pork>beef for reasons stated earlier.

What is necessary is a transition between metabolizing carbohydrates as the primary energy source and having fats being the primary energy source (with proteins secondary) as many physiological changes need to take place. Going from carbs>fats is the "transition" that matters. Where one feeds pork vs beef isn't of similar significance.

I'm aware you found non-enhance turkey (good for you!) but many (including myself) find it difficult to find low-sodium turkey at a good price as a regular item (and I live in a major metropolis where more items are easy to find at the nice price). If one can get turkey and debone it fine, but dark meat is pretty fatty for a dog new to raw feeding so I'd hold it until the dog as conditioned to fat-burning.

I've heard you say you are feeding 10% bone. I've also heard you say (over the same time-frame) that Cricket's stools looked very bony. Boney stool is generally due to either too much bone or a dog not chewing bone-in pieces adequately. So I'd handfeed or serve frozen pieces to encourage better chewing. The vet thinking her GI tract is irratated points to the same two possibilities.

Honestly, from the pictures you posted—had I not known your concerns—I'd have said that Cricket's condition looks perfect. You have a better first-hand perspective, but also entertain the idea that raw fed dogs tend to drop most of their fat layer. They don't look like kibble (carb) fed dogs. Once should expect to see a different sort of physique. The body image most people in our society have of what a dog should look like is very skewed IMO towards an obese body type seeming normal. Having a rib show and having a tuck is optimal, not cause for worry.

I hope things improve for you and Cricket. It usually isn't this hard.

Bill


----------



## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

OldGnarlHead said:


> Bill, you literally said that you thought the transition wasn't necessary unless you were trying to figure out a food sensitivity. I can try and find the post if you want, but I distinctly remember you saying that. And for the laaasttt friggin time she is not bone heavy. 10%. On the dot. For like the past month actually less than that. Which I've also already said. And you've ignored. We don't feed her much turkey bone, and the turkey is not enhanced. At all. We check. Dilligently.
> 
> She is now 38 lbs, doesn't get nearly as much exercise as she used to because it's been very cold lately. She gets 2.5% of her weight which is 16 oz (which is supposed to be the amount for weight maintenance). Outlines of bones are fine, yeah, but not the whole actual bone, as far as I know, and you can see a lot of hers, and we're all super uncomfortable with the rate at which she has been losing weight.,
> 
> So if she hasn't been started the way any of you would have started her, even though I've done what I thought was the normal way to start them and have read everywhere I have looked, how should I restart her. Because I am beyond frustrated and stressed and want nothing more in the whole entire world than to have her be completely transitioned so that I can stop freaking out and worrying about my first puppy. We've been feeding 90/10 meat/bone (and super crazy small amounts of chicken liver) up until the rice and chicken. The meals we have portioned for the next two weeks are 90/10 meat/bone/super small amounts of chicken liver, 16 oz, and a mix of chicken and turkey.


for the last time.....i am going to tell you you are overfeeding. if a raw fed dog, to you, makes you this uncomfortable.......and you're freaking out, raw feeding may not be for you.


----------



## OldGnarlHead (Feb 17, 2016)

Hey this is Kells' boyfriend, she's taking a break from the forum for a bit. She's very stressed as of late and wants to take a break from the internet in general. From what we've read, 2-3% of a dog's body weight is the optimal range for feeding dogs raw, with the higher percentages for more active dogs. Cricket is very active young dog and we feel that 2.5% of her body weight is the best spot to be in for her to get enough nutrition and also not lose weight. We have been trying our best to stick to 80/10/10 ratios for her meals, however we have been supplementing the 10% of organs as meat because we don't want her to get diarrhea from the livers and what not. We've been adding in tiny amounts to try and give her the nutrients she needs. And through all of that, her poops have been fine, no diarrhea, until we got to beef, when we accidentally gave her a piece of liver that she started getting cannon butt. her meal sizes have been consistent throughout her transition so I don't believe it's overfeeding that is causing her problems. I think we may have jumped the gun on getting her to beef and caused some distress in her GI that we only kept exacerbating by trying to fix it, thinking it was a bone problem, not a GI problem. I think it might have been a lack of research as to what could have been causing the diarrhea. We appreciate all of the advice and the help, honestly we probably wouldn't have gotten this far without the forum, but unfortunately this post seems to be running in circles as the same advice being given even though it has been already followed or we have tried it previously. Honestly I think we are going to try and transition her again, and be more consistent with her meal and bones, and not flip out about her diarrhea and rush to think it's a bone imbalance. Again I would like to thank you all for your help and support.


----------



## naturalfeddogs (Jan 6, 2011)

This confirms what I said in an earlier post, that this started with the introduction of beef. Y'all are probably doing the right thing by Kells taking a break. I'm the meantime, think about this. Start over again with the chicken and turkey, and when you get to beef, just go very slow this time, and I believe all will be fine. Best of luck, and I hope Kells comes back soon and gives us an update.


----------



## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

hi, kell's boyfriend.

i still think the dog is being overfed at 38 lbs and not getting as much exercise, due to it being winter.

be that as it may, most likely, it was the intro of beef and organs that did the trick....especially as beef and organ come last, not in the beginning.

between all of us, we have decades of experience in messing up our animals.......and then fixing them according to how they should eat, not what some guideline says.

so from me, you're hearing the 80-10-10 rule is not a rule, but a guideline. admittedly, i am in a very lonely belief camp on that one.......

having said that, i am also saying start over and feed two ounces less than what you started.

i'm sorry that kells thinks the dog is too thin. the dog is not too thin. the dog looks like a raw fed dog and it takes a little getting used to. in the beginning, i thought my dogs were prisoners of war and that i was starving them.

as it turns out, not so true........they are lean without a smidge of wasted fat on them. 

so, when i say underfeed a dog, temporarily.....and only increase or decrease by an ounce at a time.......i am talking about fixing an irritated bowel.........if she gets george's aloe from amazon, that will help.....a shot glass twice a day.


----------



## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

ps.

i have a collie who is now being fed 14 ounces. she weighs 60 lbs.
she looks like an ottoman....she had been fed 16-18 ounces......which is optimal for a dog her weight

having said that, it was too much food......for her metabolism.

so, there is no optimal.


----------



## naturalfeddogs (Jan 6, 2011)

magicre said:


> hi, kell's boyfriend.
> 
> i still think the dog is being overfed at 38 lbs and not getting as much exercise, due to it being winter.
> 
> ...


Not to worry re.....I also believe in organs at least close to last, and 80/10/10 being only a guideline. I feed according to body condition as well, not numbers. You aren't alone!


----------



## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

naturalfeddogs said:


> Not to worry re.....I also believe in organs at least close to last, and 80/10/10 being only a guideline. I feed according to body condition as well, not numbers. You aren't alone!


whew!! LOL


----------



## OldGnarlHead (Feb 17, 2016)

thank you guys very much for understanding. We introduced beef at the very end of her transition, following a few guidelines we had picked up in our research. We plan to start the transition over again starting with chicken and turkey, as you guys suggested. We hope that this time we take enough time for her body to adjust so we don't get another bout of cannon butt.

Also Re, I will agree we are worried that she is too thin, but I trust that you know better than us and that is just her body transitioning to being raw-fed. It is worrisome to see her lose weight, but if it's natural on this diet, we won't let it get to us as much as we did this time around. 

I am still worried about the amount she's getting fed, we do want to be sure that she's getting proper nutrients, if everyone truly believes that we should be feeding her less than 2.5% of her body weight, than I suppose it is worth a try.

Also Re, I do also agree that the 80/10/10 is a guideline, not a strict rule, but we wanted to follow it closely to avoid complications, we usually adjust the numbers as seen fit to figure out an optimum diet for her, but perhaps we overcompensated in one way or another. Don'y worry, our rigidity in following 80/10/10 does not mean that we hold it as a law in feeding our dog. 

We love raw feeding cricket and we both believe it is the best way to feed a dog, and we will continue to do so, hopefully with your guys' support in the endeavor, thank you very much!!


----------



## OtherGuy (Nov 30, 2016)

Many dogs are eating beef two weeks in to raw feeding (or less). Ascribing the diarrhea problems to "early" beef (when it has been months) is folly IMO.

I suspect Cricket is swallowing bone-in pieces nearly whole. I'd make sure you do something about that (hand-feed or feed frozen) as I do not believe for one moment the problem is beef. Beef does not irritated the GI tract. Bones do.

Bill


----------



## naturalfeddogs (Jan 6, 2011)

Bill, this isn't your dog, Cricket is their dog and they know what they fed their dog, and when all this started. If they say it started with beef, then that's when it started. No one, including you has any right to doubt that and tell them otherwise.


----------



## OldGnarlHead (Feb 17, 2016)

So right after we woke up this morning, Cricket threw up two small piles of bright yellow. One had a bunch of hair in it, and one was just bright yellow goop. Kells mentioned that it was probably just hunger pukes from going from rice and chicken to meat again. She gave her some broth and her breakfast as normal. It hasn't happened again as far as she's told me. Just wanted to see what you guys thought. It's just making her worry.

Also, Bill, she chews her bone-in pieces very well, and I'm not sure what would give you cause to think otherwise. Sometimes she gets a little excited and does only chew it enough to break the bone a few times, but recently she has been chewing very thoroughly. Even breaking the bone, chewing the hunk off the rest, and then chewing it some more before swallowing.


----------



## naturalfeddogs (Jan 6, 2011)

I have one who occasionally does that in the mornings as well. I just give her a small amount of something, maybe just a few chicken feet even and she's just fine.


----------



## OldGnarlHead (Feb 17, 2016)

Okay, good to know. Kells gave her some broth just to put something in her stomach until breakfast. She says that Cricket has been fine, and that her poop was pretty good this morning too.


----------



## naturalfeddogs (Jan 6, 2011)

Good! Thanks for the update!


----------



## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

there are a hundred and one reasons a dog will bile puke......

one of which can, not carved in stone, but can result in bile pukes. feeding her chicken and rice is an old vet recommend.....for kibble fed dogs and humans. 
we are learning that kibble and rice --- not so good for dogs nor humans.

i know this is so different.....it was for me, when i started and i never even got to beef LOL......before giving my dogs cannon butt, making me an expert, overnight, about the bowel movements of dogs

in thinking back.......the change in shape for my dogs was amazing and yeah, a little scary because kibble dogs just don't look the same, even lean ones.

i cannot begin to talk about how many people said i was starving my dogs. my dogs said i was starving them.

the truth of the matter is this.

they are getting every nutrient they need from protein/bone and fat.


----------



## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

here is something else to consider.

chicken and turkey are very gentle nutritions. this is one of the reasons a dog will lose weight.

when things go awry, and they do.......they are staying on chicken and turkey longer than anticipated.

it's not the only reason dogs lose weight, but it is an important one to note...so you don't panic......

i've looked at your dog pictures......and she looks good......she's going to look even better once we get you over this hump and you're feeding red meats with abandon......until that day, let's take baby steps and get this dog through the intestinal thing.

you can give this dog bentonite clay......for a week or so....a tablespoon per day.......and that will coat the intestines to help calm things down.


----------



## OtherGuy (Nov 30, 2016)

magicre said:


> in thinking back.......the change in shape for my dogs was amazing and yeah, a little scary because kibble dogs just don't look the same, even lean ones.
> 
> i cannot begin to talk about how many people said i was starving my dogs. my dogs said i was starving them.
> 
> ...


True that!!!

I have a Vizsla. They run towards the athletic lean body type in any case. But Chester stands out. When he was really young I sometimes got comments, as he was not the rolly-polly type puppy people were used to seeing.

Now? At 2.5, as the muscle has filled out, and he's carrying almost no body fat? People just go "whoa" when they see him running.

He looks like a super-model. 

Raw fed dogs just have a different body type. Once a person gets used to seeing what a natural diet does for a canine it is impossible to see dogs that carry a heavy fat layer as being "normal."

Bill


----------



## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

it took a while......now i just secretly smile......

and now i can 'tell' kibble fed dogs from raw fed dogs. the build is distinctive.


----------



## OtherGuy (Nov 30, 2016)

magicre said:


> it took a while......now i just secretly smile......
> 
> and now i can 'tell' kibble fed dogs from raw fed dogs. the build is distinctive.


Oh for sure. I remember early on going to Competitive Obedience class with my pup and meeting a woman with a beautiful Irish Setter. When the dog greeted me I felt his soft coat and slyly assessed his muscles and paplated his ribs. I looked up at the woman and said: *You raw feed!*

She looked quite startled for a moment and started to say "how do you know?" but she caught herself and laughed saying" "of course you know"! We became fast friends.

I've had similar things happen the other way around.

And "civilians" always ask why my guy looks so good.

Bill


----------



## OldGnarlHead (Feb 17, 2016)

So Cricket's poops have been consistently normal. Today was her last day of meds, and we're going to give her bentonite clay for the next few days and slowly decrease the amount just to be safe. Today, her poop was a little bony at first, and then distinctly changed to a dark brown. I don't know if any of you remember but I know Kells mentioned that this happened when we first started Cricket on raw. She's acting normally so we're not terribly worried.


----------



## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

a newly transitioned dog ---- not uncommon to find bone shards in the poop.

there are changes to the look of the dog and there are major changes to how the dog's body works.....the immune system gets a boost, the gastro intestinal system goes through
a major transformation....but it does take time for the gut microbes to adapt to being fed this way......it's a beautiful thing


----------



## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

what meds?


----------



## OldGnarlHead (Feb 17, 2016)

Kells posted it in another thread, uuuhh... Sucralfate and Metronidazole.


----------



## naturalfeddogs (Jan 6, 2011)

I knew the vet would put Cricket on meds, which I'm afraid is going to make the new transition back into raw more difficult. Those meds can do a number on the digestive system. There wasn't anything wrong to need to be on those.


----------



## OldGnarlHead (Feb 17, 2016)

Yeah that makes sense that the antibiotics would do a number on her digestive system but hopefully we can get through this transition even if it is going to be more difficult.

Her poop yesterday was a little mucousy and today it was kinda liquidy and mucousy, but looked like it was hard. She did have some turkey neck for the past two days but she's been chewing better than usual and the percentage of bone has been 10% as far as our calculations have been. We've been giving her bentonite clay, one tablespoon a day to hopefully help out. She's also been getting lots of exercise lately, she's been running around like crazy since it's been so nice.


----------



## killyousweetie (Aug 24, 2019)

Do you like interesting recipes? Then I can advise you this site with a recipe for rice soup.
club.cooking/recipe/chicken-rice-soup/

You'll like it.

Steps
Step 1
Sautée your diced onion, celery and carrots in cooking oil over medium heat for about 4 minutes, add garlic and dried herbs and cook for another minute.

Step 2
Add salt and pepper, broth, chicken and rice. Stir and bring to a boil over high heat.
.....


----------

