# Elevated liver levels



## hvtopiwala (Feb 26, 2013)

ok so my guy had his annual checkup today and on the blood work they said his liver enzymes were elevated so high that it wouldnt even return a value, but they are sending it out of the office so they can get a true level..

coudl this be attributed to the raw diet? i feed my guy 1 chicken quarter, red meat and chicken liver/beef kidneys...hes been on raw for about 4 months now.


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## bett (Mar 15, 2012)

i dont believe so.. but the raw feeders will chime in.

how old is your boy and does he show any signs of liver issues?


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## hvtopiwala (Feb 26, 2013)

he is 14 months old, and im not sure about what the signs of liver issues are (sorry!)

the past week or so he has had intermitent vomiting (once every few days, usually in the afternoon and its his morning food that comes out), and the last 3 days he hasnt eaten as much as he normally does


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## whiteleo (Sep 7, 2008)

What kind of dog and did you do a 12-16 hour fast before blood draw, did they also take a urine sample?


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## hvtopiwala (Feb 26, 2013)

he is a GSD, no fasting was done (they said he didnt need to be fasted, although i thought that was odd), and no urine sample was taken.


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## whiteleo (Sep 7, 2008)

There you go, if you want true values dogs need to be fasted before a draw.


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## hvtopiwala (Feb 26, 2013)

thats what i figured...im picking him up shortly and will mention that to them and will get a retest done asap with proper fasting.


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## hvtopiwala (Feb 26, 2013)

ok so i picked him up and the doc was gone by time i got there, vet tech was useless...she didnt know anything about how fasting could affect blood results..anyways, it was the ALT level that was high, they also didnt know whether the current meds he is on could be interfering (fluoxetine and trazodone)...they scheduled a retest 30 days from now (isnt that a bit too far, especially if something could actually be wrong?)


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## FBarnes (Feb 17, 2013)

Something is attacking his liver and it's not raw food. The only time I had liver values "off the charts" where the vet's equipment wouldn't measure it was when my dog ate poisonous plants.

And I know fasting is for sugar levels, maybe cholesterol. I've never fasted a dog for liver values.


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## hvtopiwala (Feb 26, 2013)

hmm...so should i get them to recheck it sooner? do u think it could be the meds (i know ur not vets, well some might be, but just trying to get opinions)...

a bunch of things just dont add up, i was doing some research into liver problems, and he definitely has some of these symptoms over the last few days that came out of no where...

he has random vomiting the entire past week
excessive thirst
loss of appetite over the past few days (2 days ago he didnt eat at all, yesterday he only ate his chicken quarter, and then today he only ate his chicken quarter).


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## FBarnes (Feb 17, 2013)

My first thought would be to check around your house and see if there's anything he's getting into. I had no idea my dog was eating poison berries - the plants had been in the yard for 30 years, around at least 50 dogs and not one dog had ever eaten them before. He would grab a berry as he was running by, never stopping to graze, and was so fast I didn't see it and really didn't believe it until they showed them to me from his stomach contents. Are there plants, something he could be eating?

His symptoms were lethargy and puking and refusal of food.

I have no idea about the meds.


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## hvtopiwala (Feb 26, 2013)

naw he doesnt eat anything outside and i always keep an eye on him for that..

nothing aruond the house is missing and he hasnt gotten into anything. 

im waiting till tomorrow so i can get ahold of the vet and actually talk to him to see how he wants to proceed (hopefully he is proactive and not reactive to this).


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## whiteleo (Sep 7, 2008)

Well, I didn't know he was on meds. I have a foster who is on phenobarbital for seizures and I know that this drug can cause liver and kidney problems, so I have him on some Chinese herbs and Milk thistle to help these function better while on the Pheno. My Holistic vet suggested rechecking his values after 60 days.


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## whiteleo (Sep 7, 2008)

*Fluoxetine* *Side* *Effects* *in Dogs* | eHow - eHow | How to Videos ...
*side effects* of *trazodone* *in dogs*: mind whereby lies together ...


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## Kat (Jul 12, 2011)

Ruby had elevated liver enzymes, she was about 200 points over the normal range cut off. It took 15 months or so and now they are perfect! 

This is what I did...

She had a 2 month liver detox, and her points went down 50%! After that, nothing changed at her second blood work. Then the third one it was perfect range. I tweaked her raw diet to reduce fat intake, feed more heart (pork beef and lamb) with the fat trimmed off, and I increased feeding fresh frozen fish, herring mostly, and added tripe to the diet.

Her levels were achieved without listening to my vet and putting her on a bunch of medications like she wanted to do for Ruby. It takes time, but the liver will repair itself. I hope my personal experience helps you.


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## hvtopiwala (Feb 26, 2013)

im just concerned because he isnt eating and drinking A LOT of water throughout the day. he only eats like a few bites of meat and then doestn want anymore.


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## bett (Mar 15, 2012)

we always do a fasting for rex's bloods.
the meds can definitely be throwing off the liver levels.
i'm not a raw feeder but now home cook for rex and use milk thistle, sam-e and chinese herbs (pawhealer.com) and his liver levels are perfect (until a 3 day stint on deramaxx, and within a month back down to normal).

when rex's liver was out of whack, (4x the amount) it was from toxic food (diamond) and it took months to get them down. they went down every month, with a home cooked liver support diet and the herbs. probably the herbs more than anything else.
they , the internist and my vet, thought he was in liver failure and had weeks to live. june was a year (knock on wood, paws and fingers crossed).


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## hvtopiwala (Feb 26, 2013)

heres an update:

took him to the vet in the morning because he tried to throw up like 10 times at night, but nothing was really coming out, just some white foam but not much). they ran a pancreatitis blood test and it was negative so he wanted to get a ultrasound done of his liver. the ultrasound kind of showed his liver was odd shaped and the ultrasound also revealed his entire GI track (intestines and stuff) were completely inflamed. they took some xrays to see the size of his liver, and it was way smaller than it was supposed to be. they dont know what is causing the GI track inflamation, the small liver, . they are running a ton of blood tests now, such as a Bile before/after test, pancreas tests, salmonella and other bacteria tests. they wanted to keep him overnight cuz he kept puking even though they had him on anti-nausea meds. hes there right now, they are giving him fluids because he throws up 10-15mins after he eats something, anti-nausea meds to help with the vomiting, and just seeing how he progresses.


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## whiteleo (Sep 7, 2008)

Sending healing thoughts and prayers


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## Kat (Jul 12, 2011)

Oh no  sending positive thoughts your way! Keep us updated!! I really hope it's nothing serious


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## hvtopiwala (Feb 26, 2013)

Just spoke to the night vet and she said he did fine through the night, no vomiting or anything. 
Today they are going to run their tests and try to give him some food (doubt he'll eat crap kibble though lol)


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## Kat (Jul 12, 2011)

If you can, I would bring in a high quality canned food for him, not let one of the vet diets be fed to him.


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## hvtopiwala (Feb 26, 2013)

they fed him canned GI food...

we are picking him up tonite since he hasnt puked for awhile, sending him home with meds until the test results come in and want him to stay on GI canned food until the results come in...what do you think i should do regarding the food? im a bit hesitant to put him instantly back on raw, so what would you recommend?


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## hvtopiwala (Feb 26, 2013)

also, what are the chances this could be salmonella? and if it is salmonella, wouldnt he just pass it through? i buy all my pork/beef from a local butcher, my chicken quarters from walmart in those 10lb bags, and also the chicken livers from walmart in the tub from Tyson. i dont wash anything, i just rip the bags open and start putting them in ziplocs.


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## Kat (Jul 12, 2011)

I personally always wash meat from packages cause they have that weird slimy layer. I don't like that so I wash it. I don't know if it makes a difference or not though.


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## hvtopiwala (Feb 26, 2013)

the doctor called me today to say the bile test results came in (still waiting for the other 2 tests), and it showed the liver was not function properly. she wanted to do a byopsy of the liver and also wanted to check if he has a liver shunt. she also wants to put him on lactulose to flush out ammonia and also a low protein hills prescription diet food....

what do u guys think of all this?

i dont mind takng him off raw food and putting him on a low protein food but i know there is much better out there than hills prescription food. is she going the right way in this?


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## Celt (Dec 27, 2010)

I know when my boy was "diagnosed" with "probably" having a liver shunt, I looked into what all the symptoms, treatments, etc were. Two symptoms just didn't fit my boy at all. They were: not thriving (lack of muscle tone/weight gain, being smaller, lighter than littermates) and lethargy (loss of energy, preference for sleeping). These seem to be the two "biggies" to me. On diet, it was reccommended to feed a low, high quality protein food ( usually reccommended it be 18%, dry matter) with reduction of some vitamins and minerals. There are several sites that have homecooked/raw diet plans. I hope things go well for your pup.


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## hvtopiwala (Feb 26, 2013)

he has those 2 symptoms for sure :/ he prefers to sleep than do anything, and he is a lot smaller than his breed/littermates...ill do some more research into it though.


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## hvtopiwala (Feb 26, 2013)

so with all the test results etc they are almost positive that he has liver shunts (wont know for sure without surgery)...they want to do an exploritory surgery to make sure and see if they can fix it.

for the food part, they have him on Hills K/D food, obviously not the best stuff around since he is a raw fed dog. the vet condemns raw feeding and says its too high protein for a dog with liver issues. is this true?


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## Kat (Jul 12, 2011)

No that is not true. The dog may be eating pure protein, but since meat is so high in water, it lowers the percentage of protein overall. 

Also with the liver shunt thing, they should be able to tell with an ultra sound. Doing an exploratory surgery for something that may or may not be present is too much. 

Honestly if it was me, at this point I would get a second opinion. 

My Oscar is anemic, but it is getting better with diet tweaking his raw. Without doing any other tests, my vet was convinced it was a liver shunt and adding all these crazy tests and doing painful iron injections into his muscle. Second blood test? All levels were normal except iron serum. But the iron serum was increasing too. 

As soon as you let vets do this, they will take you on the scare tactic train. Before you throw all your money into these tests, and get them to open up your dog to explore, I would honestly get the second opinion first. 

Raw can have too many variables with vets and they automatically blame that. If you decide for the second opinion, I would personally not tell them you feed raw.


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## hvtopiwala (Feb 26, 2013)

yeah i talked to the owners of a hollostic pet store, and they referred me to a vet that they trust, and knows raw diets, liver issues etc..

i also talked to my current vet and they are recommending doing an ultrasound again (funny they recommended doing it again when i said exploratory surgery seems like jumping the gun). this time they said they would specifically look for liver shunts (wtf were u looking for the first time around!)

the earliest they could get an appt for me with my current vet is monday morning, and the second opinion vet appt is also on monday. (wish it was sooner!)

my guy has definitely been sleeping a lot more right now, doesnt really want to play or do anything


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## Kat (Jul 12, 2011)

Wait, you got an ultrasound for your dog already, and they weren't specifically looking for the liver shunt the first time! What the heck did you pay for then? That is absurd. Considering how expensive ultrasounds are they should have been very thorough.


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## whiteleo (Sep 7, 2008)

Definitely look for a good Holistic vet who prefers to treat dogs that are on a raw diet (I have one of those) They can do wonders. Good Luck!


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## rescuedogs (Mar 13, 2013)

Do you have time & can you afford to go to both vets - your current vet & the holistic vet - this coming Monday? I think it would be a good thing for both you & your dog to get the opinion of 2 different professionals about the exact same animal on the same day. Then you can make an informed choice that you feel is the best for your dog based on the information you are given & the manner in which you get that information.

Based only on what you've written so far in this thread, it sounds like your current vet is one of those that delivers information & her opinion as if both are facts. That's sort of old school. 

I'm not a vet by any stretch of the imagination, nor have I had the benefit of their education, but I'm also not totally clueless when it comes to caring for dogs & cats. I have some experience, I've done some research, I have a reasonably open mind & I am capable of absorbing new information. I expect to be treated with respect by all medical professionals whether they are working with animals or humans. Sometimes you have to gently, but firmly remind them of that & sometimes you have to find a new doctor for either your dog or yourself. 

On the other hand, if you cannot afford either the time or $$$ to keep both vet appointments on Monday - FWIW, I'd go to the holistic vet. You've already heard what your current vet has to say, it may be time for a 2nd opinion. And you already know from the people who recommended the holistic vet that s/he will at the very least respect your choice to feed a raw diet. You should also be able to get the films of your original ultra-sound to take to the holistic vet. I would definitely do that - you paid for them after all & I know first-hand what those can cost!


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## Kat (Jul 12, 2011)

Very well said rescuedogs!


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## hvtopiwala (Feb 26, 2013)

yeah i have the time to go to both vets and the money, i actually managed to go to my normal vet today and get the second ultrasound done and they couldnt see any liver shunts and still recommend exploritory surgery (they keep telling me its no more risk than a spaying, which i doubt). they did find that the portal vein was smaller than normal entering the liver and branching (they do not think it is a shunt). 

i will still be going to the appointment with the surgeon in the morning on Monday and also the holistic vet on Monday and decide which is the best course of action. i know im getting under my normal vets skin because i kept asking him if he has any evidence that the raw diet is causing any of these issues and they keep saying "no, but.." and then ill cut them off and tell them without evidence u cant base a conclusion. so we'll see!


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## hvtopiwala (Feb 26, 2013)

hepatic vet recommended exploratory surgery too, which was done. it revealed multiple liver shunts that are inoperable and have to be medically maintained. they have him on Royal Canin Hepatic Diet, along with some meds (lactulose and Metronidazole). hollistic vet said the protein content in raw would just be too much for him to handle at this point and best to keep him on hepatic diet and maybe resort to home cooked food later on. do u guys agree?


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## Kat (Jul 12, 2011)

Why is he on the metronidazole? That's an antibiotic they use for stomach issues. Doesn't make sense why it would be given to liver issues....


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## Celt (Dec 27, 2010)

I would think that it would be best to stick with your vets treatment. It may not be the most "natural" diet or "care" but multiple liver shunts isn't quite "natural" either. This kind of genetic fluke would be a death sentence in the natural world. Work with your vets to give your pup the best life he can have.


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## hvtopiwala (Feb 26, 2013)

they have him on metronidazole to keep the bad bacteria and ammonia levels down.


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## Gally (Jan 28, 2012)

I thought you might find this helpful in considering future diet options: DogAware.com Health: Liver Disease in Dogs


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