# Congestive heart Failure



## augrads (Feb 1, 2012)

I have the same issue except my chi wont eat science diet rx. I contacted Innova to verify (ps they will mail you coupons once a year I got 8 dollars 5 off one food 3 off next) the canned innova low fat around .14 the heathbar .11 and the dry food .15 or .17 they have the info on their site so double check my numbers just click the nutrition analysis. Innova states their food is not designed to be low sodium. It is however, low sodium because they preserve with vitamin b not salt. Only the low fat and healthbars varieties as of jan 2010. I suppliment with happy heart treats that have no added preservatives and get the taurine and flax into the diet. I would hope in the future their are more options. This is only over the counter food ive found as most food are required a min of .30 sodium this food is also equivalent sodium wise to hills k/d.


----------



## mythbuster (Jan 23, 2012)

Pilgrim said:


> Hi,
> This my first post and was wondering if anyone out there could suggest a non prescription alternatve that will still be helpful to my dogs heart condition.
> 
> My vet's stock of the food is very intermittent so I have to mix it somtimes with other food as a temporary alternative.
> ...


DO NOT LISTEN TO THE ADVICE YOU ARE GETTING ON HERE!!!!!!!!!!! This advice will kill your dog faster.
If your dog is in congestive heart failure, then absolutely 100% you need to keep him on a low sodium diet. Yes, protein is important for heart failure, but DO NOT PUT HIM ON A HIGH PROTEIN GRAIN FREE DIET. There are a couple of different companies that have diets appropriate for heart disease if you don't want to feed Hill's. Or have a diet formulated by a nutritionist. You need to find a diet with less than 0.2% sodium to help decrease the load on the heart. Omega 3 fatty acids (specifically EPA/DHA from fish oil), are very beneficial for heart disease.


----------



## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

My dog has heart disease. For once, I agree with mythbuster.

My dog of course is fed raw, but it's zero sodium - not even a tiny bit. And lots of oils. I feed salmon and whiting alot. It's very hard to find canned fish that has no salt.


----------



## frogdog (Aug 10, 2011)

I, also, agree with Mythbuster.

You may want to start your own thread regarding the issue considering this one is a year old.


----------



## Scarlett_O' (May 19, 2011)

This thread is a year old!:wink:

Augrads, you might want to consider making your own thread, so that we can help you with your dog's issues!:smile:

And as far as the sodium issue goes...well that was already addressed in the previous posts.


----------



## mythbuster (Jan 23, 2012)

xellil said:


> My dog of course is fed raw, but it's zero sodium - not even a tiny bit. And lots of oils. I feed salmon and whiting alot. It's very hard to find canned fish that has no salt.


Sodium is naturally occurring in tissues, so even a raw diet with no sodium added will contain some sodium (which is good, because sodium is necessary for fluid homeostasis in the body, if you got zero sodium, you would die), the key is to choose ingredients that contain low levels of sodium (in the case of a homemade diet), or choose a diet that is formulated with very low levels of sodium (most commercial diets are not low enough in sodium for a heart failure dog, there are special diets specifically made for this; for example: Cardiac Dry / Veterinary Exclusive Dog Diets / Veterinary Exclusive Diets / Home - RoyalCanin). You want enough sodium to meet the needs of the body without giving any more than is necessary. 

The reason low sodium is so crucially important in heart disease is that water follows salt. If you consume a lot of salt, you end up with a lot of salt in your bloodstream, which pulls more fluid into the veins, increasing the pressure in the veins and the workload on the heart. Think of rivers in the spring after all the snow thaws.... extra water is in the river, and it ends up overflowing the river banks and covering the roads if it builds up too much. Only in the case of heart failure, instead of water covering the road, you have water pooling in areas like the belly and chest. Make sense?


----------



## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

yes, most things have a tiny bit of salt. Perhaps I should say zero added salt.

For instance, I will give my Dobie chicken that has under 100 gms of salt in it - it's been enhanced some I think, but not the 360 gm I see in some meat.

for my dachshund, she gets almost 100% what comes from a raw dog food supplier, where i am pretty sure no salt has been processed into the food. 

I know the chicken I get from the dog food people looks, smells, and has a texture totally different from what comes out of the grocery store.

And I know I probably give her some salt by accident. I am giving them that hogshead that had absolutely no nutritional info on it. it did say "Fresh frozen." I am just keeping my fingers crossed it's not chock full of salt.


----------



## Caty M (Aug 13, 2010)

I never really thought about enhanced meat and feeding to my rescue with a murmur. Huh. I never actually looked to see if the chicken I bought is enhanced- I have no idea.


----------



## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

Caty M said:


> I never really thought about enhanced meat and feeding to my rescue with a murmur. Huh. I never actually looked to see if the chicken I bought is enhanced- I have no idea.


Yep, me too. I thought chicken was chicken. I learned about the salt on here. Should have known better - they often fill it full of salt water to increase the weight and I guess make it taste better.

Kroger is a store where (at least the ones I've been to) 100 percent of their chicken is way too high in salt to feed my dogs.


----------



## Caty M (Aug 13, 2010)

Is a heart murmur really indicative of a future heart problem though and should I only feed low sodium chicken? I know they can be genetic and never really affect the dog, but I don't know what kind of murmur it is (just going by her health records).


----------



## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

i think it could be indicative of a genetic problem, although I'm not an expert. like a hole in the valve or something. I don't know if one murmer sounds different from another.

But without a x-ray or ultrasound, it's hard to tell. I have seen Snorkels' x-rays, ultrasound, and echocardiogram results and her heart is large, plus you can see the thickness at the bottom of the heart valve, making it bang open and shut like a club rather than a thin piece of tissue. 

I only feed low sodium to all my dogs, I don't think it's good for any dog to eat that high in sodium. And probably not for people, either.

With an older dog, i would suspect heart disease rather than genetics, especially if their teeth are bad.


----------



## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

:usa::usa::usa::usa::usa:


----------



## mythbuster (Jan 23, 2012)

Caty M said:


> Is a heart murmur really indicative of a future heart problem though and should I only feed low sodium chicken? I know they can be genetic and never really affect the dog, but I don't know what kind of murmur it is (just going by her health records).


The valves of the heart work like turnstiles, they make sure blood flows forward, but can't flow backwards. When you hear a murmur, what you're hearing is a leaky valve, and the sound is actually the sound of blood flowing backwards in the heart. 

If the leak is minor, the heart is able to keep up with blood flow demands to the body, and they are not really affected. If the leak progresses, then less and less blood is moving forward, so the heart tries to get stronger by getting bigger, in hopes of pushing more blood forward. But there is no room for the heart to get bigger, and it starts to take up space for other organs (like the lungs), and still can't keep up with flow demands. 

Managing heart disease is focused on 3 things: 
1) providing the heart with the nutrients it needs: ie: energy, protein, arginine, taurine, carnitine, EPA/DHA, appropriate levels of sodium, potassium, magnesium
2) decreasing the load on the heart: ie; lower sodium, adding in diuretics like furosemide to cause them to pee excess fluid 
3) medications to make the heart work more effectively: ie: pimobendan makes the heart contractions stronger, benazepril causes blood vessels to constrict which improves circulation.


----------



## Caty M (Aug 13, 2010)

At this point the vet didn't think she needed any medications.. so a raw diet with no added sodium should help her out a bit? Maybe with a bit of extra beef heart and salmon?


----------



## brandypup (Jan 23, 2012)

Sorry about your puppers. 
I had 2 cats with HCM and Prince had a saddle thrmbosis at 8 months old, lived a quality life for 3 months but sucummbed to heart failure on Christmas 2005. I was feeding kibble and canned at the time. But that is a cat. 

Shorty- my BIL doog has a grade 5 heart murrmur and are probably feeding a medium grade food. (ugh and still giving vaccination salthough the dog is like 10 yrs old I just can't get them to change) But shorty is happy. 

Sorry no help.


----------



## mythbuster (Jan 23, 2012)

Caty M said:


> At this point the vet didn't think she needed any medications.. so a raw diet with no added sodium should help her out a bit? Maybe with a bit of extra beef heart and salmon?


There are a number of nutrients and levels that can benefit (or be detrimental to) heart health. My opinion is that the only way to ensure the consistent nutrient levels you want for a condition like this is with a diet that is formulated to meet those specific needs. If it was my dog, I would be feeding a commercial diet specifically formulated to address heart health. The more effectively you address the needs nutritionally, the longer you will be able to hold off adding in medications to help manage the disease.


----------



## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

Of course, Snorkels eats raw with mitral valve disease. I give her meat with no salt, lots of fish and oils, and she does eat the richer meats and organs. 

She had heart disease for awhile before I got her, but it wasn't diagnosed for a year. Her cardiologist in Indiana supported feeding her raw food. His recommendation was no salt and lots of good oils. As did her regular vet, who witnessed the drastic improvement in her health.

I will see what the new cardiologist from Texas A&M says next month when we have our appointment - Snorkels is now on a very low dose of benazipril. I am hoping to hold off on the diuretics as long as possible because of the side effects. Right now, her heart is beating at the proper speed and the only signs she is showing is the hacky cough from her heart pressing on her trachea after she drinks and when she barks sometimes.

I do believe I can give her a better raw diet for her heart than any prescription food. I am aware that she does need taurine and l-carnitine and vitamin e. Vitamin E is one thing that I'm not sure she's getting enough of, so I'm considering supplementing her a little with maybe some pumpkin

In comparison, here is Hill's ingredient list for it's dog food for heart health. There are so many things in here I would never let near my dog I hardly know where to start, but I've bolded some of them:

_*Whole Grain Corn*, Pork Fat (preserved with mixed tocopherols and citric acid),* Soy Protein Isolate*, *Chicken By-Product Meal, Chicken Liver Flavor,* Dried Egg Product, *Powdered Cellulose*, Potassium Citrate, Dicalcium Phosphate, Calcium Carbonate, Natural Flavor, Choline Chloride, Soybean Oil, vitamins (L-Ascorbyl-2-Polyphosphate (source of vitamin C), Vitamin E Supplement, Niacin, Thiamine Mononitrate, Vitamin A Supplement, Calcium Pantothenate, Biotin, Vitamin B12 Supplement, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride, Riboflavin, Folic Acid, Vitamin D3 Supplement), L-Lysine, Taurine, Vitamin E Supplement, minerals (Ferrous Sulfate, Zinc Oxide, Copper Sulfate, Manganous Oxide, Calcium Iodate, Sodium Selenite), DL-Methionine, Magnesium Oxide, preserved with Mixed Tocopherols & Citric Acid, L-Carnitine, L-Tryptophan, Phosphoric Acid, Beta-Carotene, Rosemary Extract._

Regardless of arguments about corn, it doesn't help her heart and it's the first ingredient.
Sawdust - how does that help any dog?
Chicken by product meal - cheap crap consisting of the worst of the worst of the chicken. Why would I feed her that garbage?
Soy Protein - what does that do for her heart?

On and on. They added a bunch of vitamins in there, take away the salt, throw in the cheapest of ingredients, charge a fortune for it and call it "heart healthy" dog food.

I believe my dogs are getting all of the good stuff and none of the bad stuff with their raw meat diet.


----------



## mythbuster (Jan 23, 2012)

xellil said:


> Regardless of arguments about corn, it doesn't help her heart and it's the first ingredient.
> Sawdust - how does that help any dog?
> Chicken by product meal - cheap crap consisting of the worst of the worst of the chicken. Why would I feed her that garbage?
> Soy Protein - what does that do for her heart?


I'm not suggesting Hills, however to answer your questions: 
Corn supplies antioxidants, which are very beneficial to slow down the progression of heart disease by reducing free radical damage
cellulose is a source of insoluble fibre, not sawdust
Chicken by-product includes organ meat, including heart meat, which is an exceptional source of L-carnitine and taurine
Soy protein is a highly digestible source of amino acids which are important for heart health. 

I have ZERO interest in getting into another debate about raw vs kibble, so I'm leaving. Hash it out amongst yourselves. Or go to the raw section where that discussion belongs. I will not be following you.


----------



## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

then don't suggest processed dog food for a dog's heart. Cellulose IS sawdust. Which is insoluble fiber. Which means filler. 

And according to AAFCO, chicken by-product meal is *"dry, ground, rendered, clean parts of the carcass of slaughtered chicken, such as necks, feet, undeveloped eggs, and intestines -- exclusive of feathers except in such amounts as might occur unavoidably in good processing practices. " *Don't see any heart in there. Or organ meat for that matter. Unless you count intestines as organ meat.

And you can get amino acids and antioxidants from fresh sources rather than processed junk.


----------



## mythbuster (Jan 23, 2012)

xellil said:


> And according to AAFCO, chicken by-product meal is *"dry, ground, rendered, clean parts of the carcass of slaughtered chicken, such as necks, feet, undeveloped eggs, and intestines -- exclusive of feathers except in such amounts as might occur unavoidably in good processing practices. " *Don't see any heart in there. Or organ meat for that matter. Unless you count intestines as organ meat.


last I checked, heart (and other organ meat for that matter), is "part of the carcass of a slaughtered chicken". 
If you don't want to discuss processed food, then stop lurking in the processed food section.


----------



## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

mythbuster said:


> last I checked, heart (and other organ meat for that matter), is "part of the carcass of a slaughtered chicken".
> If you don't want to discuss processed food, then stop lurking in the processed food section.


Only here because I have a dog with heart disease. The OP asked for a non-prescription alternative. I'm not here to tout raw food, only to say the prescription food for hearts is all crap AND one's dog at a minimum should not be getting any added salt. 

Sorry to disagree with fifty-bazillion degree nutritionist - but you should really not tell falsehoods to people about the ingredients in the dog food and try to pass sawdust off as something with a real reason for being in there. And act like people are so stupid they must trust the dog food companies (who only have our pets best interests at heart, of course) to give our sick dogs the right ingredients and none of the bad ones.

I'm sure AAFCO just forgot to mention heart and all the good organ meat in the "such as" part. I bet those by-products are just chock full of tasty organ meat. Not counting intestines, feathers, and beaks of course.


----------

