# Getting stressed about balance



## Kat (Jul 12, 2011)

I have been feeding Ruby raw since August 19 2011. She successfully eats chicken, turkey, pork, lamb, salmon (canned), sardines (canned). Introing beef threw me behind *a lot* because she just couldnt handle it. No matter how slowly I went with beef, her poops were nasty, so I gave up and did lamb instead. 

I just started introing chicken liver a few weeks ago. Im still only at .20 oz every 3rd meal when I feed bone-in. 

Getting stressed because I know I still need to intro kidney, but I cant do that till she is fully introd to liver, right?

And then I still need to do heart! I keep hearing how important heart muscle meat is, but Im still so far away from that! Im just worried she isnt getting all the nutrients she needs. Her main proteins that I feed are pork and lamb. She gets chicken only for the bone, I dont like doing turkey bones, they are too dense for her and she always ends up throwing some up, so Im not comfortable with turkey bones. So she only gets bone out turkey like once a week. I feed the fish on sundays. 

Her yearly vet checkup is coming up so I want to do a full blood panel and make sure she isnt missing out on any key nutrients. 

Should I be worried at how long it is taking to do the organs and heart? She looks healthy over all to me, I just hope there are no deficiences.


----------



## whiteleo (Sep 7, 2008)

I feed a lot of heart, not necessarily beef though! I feed mostly venison and lamb heart, I'm sure the nutrient content is slightly different but I'm not that concerned. Heart, in the red meat protein, lamb, beef, venison I believe would suffice!


----------



## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

Kidney and other organs aren't nearly as rich as liver. Why don't you try that? I get pancreas, spleen, kidney, and something else I forget and I feed alot of that. And tripe also, if you can get it. All those will add alot of good stuff and not be nearly so rich. Then maybe you can do liver in little teeny tiny pieces and not feel like you are not going fast enough.

I feed goat also. I think it's a red meat.


----------



## Kat (Jul 12, 2011)

This is her weekly menu, sometimes I dont do it exact to what I write, it depends what I have in the freezer: (if I dont have any bone-in chicken, I will substitue the bone-out pork with pork ribs)

MONDAY
Breakfast: Bone-out Pork
Dinner: Bone-in Chicken with Liver

TUESDAY
Breakfast: Canned fish
Dinner: Lamb

WEDNESDAY
Breakfast: Bone-out Pork
Dinner: Bone-in Chicken with Liver

THURSDAY
Breakfast: Lamb
Dinner: Bone-out Pork

FRIDAY
Breakfast: Turkey
Dinner: Bone-in Chicken with Liver

SATURDAY
Breakfast: Bone-out Pork
Dinner: Lamb

SUNDAY
Breakfast: Canned fish
Dinner: Bone-in Chicken with Liver


----------



## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

You could substitute kidney for the liver for awhile and see what happens. I think the real experts will tell you whether that's good or not, glad you posted it. 

i feed my dogs three times a day, this is what Rebel got yesterday:

Breakfast:
Chicken foot 
Liver
Boneless pork

Lunch:
1 whole whiting
1/2 turkey neck

supper:
Tripe
chicken head
beef heart

You've got several proteins, I'm not sure what is bad about your diet except maybe getting the 10 percent of organ in there.


----------



## Kat (Jul 12, 2011)

Yeah. She is supposed to get 5.6 oz of organs a week... 2.8 liver, 2.8 kidney or something else. Im only doing 4 meals with .20 oz of liver, so obviously Im a long way away from how much organs she should be getting. Iv only been introing organs for like 2 weeks though. And I did have to pause after cannon butt for a few days and feed more bone-heavy.

I also have a whole rabbit in my freezer which I bought for future proteins. And I am going to be looking for goat too. I just want to go to a good butcher for the goat though, not my grocery store.


----------



## whiteleo (Sep 7, 2008)

Balance happens over time, you are only 5 months in and Ruby will be just fine! I would just look for some different type of heart proteins that aren't as rich, like lamb heart, maybe pork heart, although I'm not a fan of too much pork! When she gets transitioned through the liver then you can look for kidneys. I feed bison and lamb kidneys, beef, lamb, and venison heart. 

I wouldn't worry too much right now!


----------



## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

Personally, I see no reason why you couldn't introduce the kidney before you get all the liver in there. It's not going to cause as much stomach upset as the liver. 

I get the goat from My Pet Carnivore, but now that I am in Texas I need to find another source. I need a farmer, also.


----------



## Kat (Jul 12, 2011)

She has had kidney with chicken backs without a problem... so I guess I could try kidney with the liver. 

Whiteleo, why dont you like pork? As you can see by my schedule, I feed it quite often. I get beautiful organic pork, so I like to feed it quite often.


----------



## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

Kat said:


> Yeah. She is supposed to get 5.6 oz of organs a week... 2.8 liver, 2.8 kidney or something else. Im only doing 4 meals with .20 oz of liver, so obviously Im a long way away from how much organs she should be getting. Iv only been introing organs for like 2 weeks though. And I did have to pause after cannon butt for a few days and feed more bone-heavy.
> 
> I also have a whole rabbit in my freezer which I bought for future proteins. And I am going to be looking for goat too. I just want to go to a good butcher for the goat though, not my grocery store.


you're further along than i was at five months.

you do have balance.....

she looks great. she acts great...and blood work does not tell the true story....

even if you never feed beef, which i think you will down the line, you're feeding red meat....make sure she gets enough fat in her diet and try later to get her on real fish, again, in the future.

believe me...not every dog is a garbage gut.....many dogs do not transition so easily...i know this because i have two of them...and it took almost 9 months to finally get them on beef.

i had to start out with finger nail sized slivers..organs weren't started, i think, other than finger nail size chicken livers for a year....

it really is balance over time.....her body has a unique storage capacity for the nutrients she needs....especially the fat soluble vitamins...

dogs create their own vitamin c...and she is getting nutrients from what you're feeding and a nice variety it is....

no stress...she's coming along....in a year, you'll be laughing. 'course, i didn't laugh for almost two. but i'm laughing now....it just longer than others.


----------



## Kat (Jul 12, 2011)

I prefer pork and lamb fat over the chicken skin and fat. I have a small ziploc filled with left over lamb fat from a leg I bought. I always try and look for pork cuts with a thicker line of fat on them. And I do give organic extra virgin coconut oil a few times a week. I know shes not getting too much fat because her coat isnt oily, it just feels nice and soft. 

I hope I laugh in a year :tongue: lol

I do think about doing real fish, but then I get scared of that parasite that can kill dogs from the pacific northwest. I know if you freeze it for long enough its supposed to be safe, but the thought makes me nervous. What kinds of fresh fish do you feed Bubba magicre?


----------



## whiteleo (Sep 7, 2008)

*Walmart's Pork Supplier Exposed 
* 
www.youtube.com


Pigs are treated horribly and the only pork I feed is pork ribs but I just made a commitment to even stop that!... I feed 95% all natural proteins and pork was not one of those sources.


----------



## liquid (Dec 28, 2011)

It looks like you have a nice variety going - dont stress it too much. 
Since Ruby has trouble with beef, have you tried other sources of heart meat? Lamb, turkey, pork, and chicken hearts are probably less rich than beef hearts.

If you are feeding her enough organ, which it seems like you are with liver 4x a week, you should be fine with nutrients. Remember that it's balance over time. :thumb:


----------



## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

Kat said:


> I prefer pork and lamb fat over the chicken skin and fat. I have a small ziploc filled with left over lamb fat from a leg I bought. I always try and look for pork cuts with a thicker line of fat on them. And I do give organic extra virgin coconut oil a few times a week. I know shes not getting too much fat because her coat isnt oily, it just feels nice and soft.
> 
> I hope I laugh in a year :tongue: lol


i think it's very stressful to change an entire way of thinking and then watch liquid squirt out of my dogs' butts....especially when it was more user error than anything else....

in the end, not to make a pun, it has worked out well....but two years? it's a drop in the bucket, considering how old ruby is....


----------



## Kat (Jul 12, 2011)

I just emailed a organic butcher shop in the city beside mine about getting lamb and pork liver, kidney, and hearts. Hopefully he can get back to me with some information. 

Whiteleo: Oh I see, that makes sense as to why you choose not to feed pork. If you did find a good source for pork would you feed it again? I get mine from a local organic farm that are grass fed. My grocery store gets a small supply of pork, chicken, and beef from them weekly. 

Im too scared to watch the video you posted though, after I saw the Mcdonalds chicken video, I dont want to be that upset again >.<


----------



## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

Kat said:


> I prefer pork and lamb fat over the chicken skin and fat. I have a small ziploc filled with left over lamb fat from a leg I bought. I always try and look for pork cuts with a thicker line of fat on them. And I do give organic extra virgin coconut oil a few times a week. I know shes not getting too much fat because her coat isnt oily, it just feels nice and soft.
> 
> I hope I laugh in a year :tongue: lol
> 
> I do think about doing real fish, but then I get scared of that parasite that can kill dogs from the pacific northwest. I know if you freeze it for long enough its supposed to be safe, but the thought makes me nervous. What kinds of fresh fish do you feed Bubba magicre?


you will...it does get easier.....

i feed mackerel, herring, sardines and hopefully, this summer, anchovies....they are very high in omega threes and good stuff...wolves in certain areas do eat fish.....i've seen the pics...

and...i do feed pork ribs....and pork from niman ranch who supplies restaurants...but, like whiteleo, i am not enamoured with pork...one for religious reasons....although i'm not too strict about it...it's just not my go to protein for myself or my dogs.....

and i feed lamb and goat that are pasture raised.....so those are also edible bones...and i don't feed chicken, but i feed duck necks for edible bone.

other than that, my kids eat mostly red meat from as many animals as i can...and it took a long time coming.

maybe other people are smarter than me, but my pug was going bald because i wasn't giving him enough dietary fat....d'oh.

i'm almost two years into this and i'm just starting to figure it out.

worry not. baby steps.


----------



## MollyWoppy (Mar 19, 2010)

Yes, I agree don't stress too much. I can rarely find kidney, so Mollie gets mainly liver, calf, cow and chicken. I give her canned fish, raw eggs, pork, beef, chicken, turkey and cornish hen. Some heart in there when I can find it and salmon oil. She had her yearly blood test last week and it came back perfect. I couldn't be more happy. 
I worried a bit that I wasn't feeding enough variety, but she most certainly looks healthy and the blood tests were great, didn't show any deficiencies or that her diet needs any tweaking, so I can relax now.
However, I'm hoping to get more variety as I've found a raw co-op that delivers down round this area, so things are falling into place.
Don't' forget to get a urinalysis done as well.


----------



## Kat (Jul 12, 2011)

A urinalysis? Never would have thought of that and my vet never suggested it for a yearly checkup. Any particular reason?

Oh i completely forgot about cornish hen. I feed that to Ruby when it is available at my grocery store around the holidays. I also bought a duck thats sitting and waiting in my freezer


----------



## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

Kat said:


> A urinalysis? Never would have thought of that and my vet never suggested it for a yearly checkup. Any particular reason?
> 
> Oh i completely forgot about cornish hen. I feed that to Ruby when it is available at my grocery store around the holidays. I also bought a duck thats sitting and waiting in my freezer


we do urinalysis when we do a wellness check...it's not a sterile catch....though.

i also feed thymus gland and kidney from bison and lamb and goat......i feed as little pork organs as possible. can't stand the smell....

even beef liver is minimal.....although i have it and do feed it. i try to rotate.


----------



## MollyWoppy (Mar 19, 2010)

Kat said:


> A urinalysis? Never would have thought of that and my vet never suggested it for a yearly checkup. Any particular reason?


http://dogfoodchat.com/forum/dog-health-issues-question/12143-blood-panels-prices.html


It had never occurred to me either, until Natalie mentioned it. When I thought about human yearly blood tests and how they normally do a urinalysis as well, it seemed logical to have one done for Mol as well.

I'm trying to prove to my anti-raw-feeding/anti-Orijen vet that a well balanced, responsibly fed raw diet can make a dog thrive. I'm planning to do yearly tests and then 6 monthly tests as Mol gets older for the rest of her life. So, if everything goes according to plan, he just might be a believer in 9 or 10 years or so. We'll see!


----------



## Kat (Jul 12, 2011)

My vet doesnt know I switched to raw yet, they are very against raw. When Ruby was a puppy I suggested the idea to my vet and she right away started a debate and shut me down.

But I will ask if they do a "package deal" with Blood and Urine


----------



## MollyWoppy (Mar 19, 2010)

Kat said:


> My vet doesnt know I switched to raw yet, they are very against raw. When Ruby was a puppy I suggested the idea to my vet and she right away started a debate and shut me down.


Yeah, it took me this long to pluck up the courage myself. I got a right telling off lecturing me on all the perils some time ago, and haven't had the guts to say anything since. Until this time, but now I'm determined to prove him wrong in a responsible way that he can't dispute. I'm not going to argue, just prove it with Mol's health over the years. (cross fingers).

Mollie got: CBC/Chemistry/UA/T4/HW-ANTECH Canine last week. $145.87 (read off the receipt)
I don't know what T4 is, but it included the heartworm test as well.


----------



## Kat (Jul 12, 2011)

The area I live in, vets are ridiculously expensive. A vet check up is $60 alone. My friend who lives 45 minutes away only pays $35 for a vet checkup. Hopefully they do have some kind of package price though.

Last year I never had to pay for heartworm. After Ruby had that crazy allergic reaction to the vaccine, my vet got pretty scared because she was the one who talked me into getting it, and she saw how pissed I was so they gave me free fecal and heartworm. So Im not looking forward to the bill this year lol


----------



## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

My vet called the T4 the more advanced thyroid test. 

i am paying alot more here in Texas than i did in indy.

BUT, my new vet just got the cold laser machine yesterday and told me a session would be $40. I told him i got it for $20 in Indy and $30 right up the road in Denton, so he dropped the price to $30. Heck, I figure i should get it for $10 a session since she gets it weekly and I'm going to be giving them a ton of money for it. Many dogs get a few sessions and then stop.

I reallly think he had no clue as to what to charge. I should have told him i got it for $20 in Denton 

I've had so much better luck with vets than alot of people here, talking about raw food. The only vet that really got in my face about it was the ER vet in Indy (who I saw more than my regular vet) and that was because he wanted to sell me a bunch of Science Diet.


----------



## DaneMama (Jun 27, 2008)

Kat said:


> This is her weekly menu, sometimes I dont do it exact to what I write, it depends what I have in the freezer: (if I dont have any bone-in chicken, I will substitue the bone-out pork with pork ribs)
> 
> MONDAY
> Breakfast: Bone-out Pork
> ...


This looks like a great rotation. I like that you have at least 2 red meat sources (lamb and pork) as the more red meat the better. 

I would suggest adding whole eggs in as they're a great addition and are packed with nutrition. I'd also add in an omega 3 fatty acid supplement like salmon oil if you get most of your meat from wholesale sources/factory farmed sources. I would also like to see the addition to a heart meat in, regardless of source but beef heart being one of the top sources. If beef heart is the only source of beef in the diet thats still fantastic. Beef heart is usually really affordable. 

Kidney is a great organ to feed, BUT not necessary if you're giving liver. Variety is key of course, but if you can only feed liver all your nutritional bases are covered. 

Overall looking great and I see NO reason to stress out!


----------



## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

nat...ruby has some issues with really rich foods....what would you think of starting her on quail eggs...just because they are smaller and might be a better intro.

and, kat? if your vets are that anti raw.....are there other vets? because if they are virulently anti raw, what else are they anti about that could possibly be harmful, rather than beneficial.

we get a senior blood panel on our dogs because it is more compleat....and we get a UA.....


----------



## DaneMama (Jun 27, 2008)

Quail eggs are just fine...she can also start out with giving JUST the white of the egg and work up to giving the rest in time. A lot of people worry about biotin deficiencies with raw egg yokes, but there's abundant biotin in the rest of the diet to make up for the raw egg white. 

I get senior panels on my dogs as well...and its really important to do UA's with blood work as well.


----------



## Kat (Jul 12, 2011)

With the eggs: Should I be giving the egg white with the egg shell crushed? My grocery store sells organic eggs from the same company I buy my chicken and pork. 

I will be adding heart as soon as i can, I emailed an organic butcher last night to ask about heart and organs, no reply yet though. 

I use organic extra virgin coconut oil, isnt that rich in omegas? I do have salmon oil, but stopped used it when I read about how magicre thought maybe that was what was causing bubbas baldness. And I heard you need to supplement salmon oil with vitamin e. 

I want to get as much variety into Rubys diet as possible. I still have a lot of organic grass fed beef in my freezer that I will hopefully get to use in the future. Even if I can only add like half an ounce of beef as a "vitamin booster" to another meal. Lol, not sure if it would make a difference, but I just dont want to waste the beautiful beef.


----------



## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

you're not going to waste the beautiful beef. allergies in dogs are so rare...at least real ones.

she just has one of those stomachs.....

as to the egg, i would try the egg with a bony meal....or half the egg or just the white, or whatever natalie said.....

i figure my dogs get enough bone and calcium that they don't need the shell, which they don't care for anyway.....but i used to take the egg and grind the whole thing so they ate egg, white, shell --- just ground.

now i don't bother watching them roll the egg around the kitchen.....neither one eats the shell. i just give them egg. great for the fur. and man, does bubba now have fur.

if you give ruby a fingernail sized piece of beef.....every other day in one of her meals...which is not 1/2 ounce...i doubt if it would even register on a scale, that's how small i'm talking about....i think she will adapt....

this is how i did it with beef.....once we finally got there


----------

