# interesting articles about trainers



## mastifflover2 (Jul 1, 2008)

There are very few things I would use that Cesar Milan teaches, but I thought these articles would help with the pros and cons
http://www.urbandawgs.com/divided_profession.html
http://www.americanhumane.org/site/PageServer?pagename=nr_news_releases_dog_whisperer


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## Guest (Jul 27, 2008)

National Geographic does have a disclaimer now that says "Do not try this at home" or some such.

CM is very charismatic. When my clients become enamored I have them watch the show with the sound off and watch the dogs, not CM. They are always astounded.

I do disagree with Jean Donaldson when she says that unlike 6 plumbers who will agree on how to fix something, dog trainers are more like Republicans or Democrats. They are in one camp or the other.

I have never met 2 plumbers who agreed. In fact I've never met two people from the same political party who agreed.


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## RawFedDogs (Jun 16, 2008)

mastifflover2 said:


> There are very few things I would use that Cesar Milan teaches, but I thought these articles would help with the pros and cons


CM is a mediocre dog trainer who also happens to be a very good show man. He has a great TV personality and he's a great self promoter. There are probably 10,000 better dog trainers in the US. The things he does and the problems he solves are the same things most all dog trainers see every day.

Remember that you only see a 10 or 15 minute snippet of what he does with a dog. You don't see what is going on when the camera is off.


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## domari (Jun 17, 2008)

Every dog trainer has their own methods, which is fine with me. In my opinion, whatever it takes to train a dog and cure bad habits (as long as it's not cruel) is a good thing. 

We might not all agree with everything CM does, but if it works, so what. 

I'm glad he's a good showman and on tv because it shows the public that there are ways to train dogs so that they can remain part of the household and not have to be dumped off in shelters or wind up on Craigslist or given away free. I've seen wayyyy too many dogs wind up in shelters or given away free for issues that are easily fixed with a little training. 

Ever see the other British show called “It’s Me or the Dog” I like her methods of lecturing dog owners. 

Now if only there was someone on tv who can teach people how to train their children....


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## rannmiller (Jun 27, 2008)

domari said:


> Now if only there was someone on tv who can teach people how to train their children....


Wasn't there a nanny show that did that a little bit? I believe _most _children need to be leashed and muzzled when in public with the way parents spoil them these days. And even then, it's usually a parental problem, not the kids' faults.


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## domari (Jun 17, 2008)

rannmiller said:


> Wasn't there a nanny show that did that a little bit? I believe _most _children need to be leashed and muzzled when in public with the way parents spoil them these days. And even then, it's usually a parental problem, not the kids' faults.


I don't remember a nanny show. But imagine a show similar to the Dog Whisperer where people can write in and have someone go to their house and train unruly brats for a few days? 

You're right, leashes and muzzles for kids would be great. This past weekend we had a lot of families with little kids in town for parade, fireworks, etc. Horrible little displays of bratty behavior, you name it, they did it. The dogs I saw walking around were much better behaved than the kids were!!

A few weeks ago in Craigslist there was an ad where someone was giving away their dog because the kids were bored of it and didn't want to take care of it anymore. I wasn't the only one to rip into the person who posted that ad. Obviously she had no control over her children and allowed them to not to care for the dog anymore. She needed a kid trainer, and I can't imagine how her dog must have behaved.


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## Guest (Jul 28, 2008)

I agree that any method that does not hurt the dog or the relationship between the owner and the dog is fine, even if I think it's whacked.

CM's methods don't work though and they are cruel and dangerous.
Dr. Nicolas Dodman who runs Tufts Behavior clinic and Dr. Andrew Leuscher who runs Purdue's both wrote letters to National Geographic denouncing his antiquated techniques and his psycho-babble. They said he was setting dog training back 20 years.

He uses a form of the Koehler method of dog training which is very scary indeed. And outdated.

I haven't checked this out yet, but one of my clients told me that Victoria Stillwell (from It's Me or The Dog) is an actress who just now got the first dog of her life. If that's true then they used very good trainers on the set (and you can tell that the styles changed as the show went on) because she is on a new dog talent show now and she reads dog body language well. Better than your average trainer. (Unless those same trainers from her first show are backstage)

We have two nanny shows that come on each week. I've seen each a couple of times and not surprising to me it usually turns out that the kids biggest problem is the parents. When they watch footage of themselves parenting they usually wake up a bit.

It's odd that that most people think by virtue of having a baby they automatically know how to parent and the same with dogs. Only 10% of dog owners use a professional trainer.

Very few parents ever bother to study child development or child psychology or take parenting classes.

Yet cooking classes have a waiting list. Go figure.


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## RawFedDogs (Jun 16, 2008)

domari said:


> Every dog trainer has their own methods, which is fine with me. In my opinion, whatever it takes to train a dog and cure bad habits (as long as it's not cruel) is a good thing.


Many of CM's methods are cruel both mentally and physically. If you can get the same results quicker with positive motivation, why put the dogs through such traumatic methods?

A good trainer can train dogs completely with positive methods. Back in the days I was training, I rarely even used a leash except to teach dogs to walk on a leash. 



> We might not all agree with everything CM does, but if it works, so what.


Torture works on humans and if it works, so what? Yes, it is the same.



> I'm glad he's a good showman and on tv because it shows the public that there are ways to train dogs so that they can remain part of the household and not have to be dumped off in shelters or wind up on Craigslist or given away free. I've seen wayyyy too many dogs wind up in shelters or given away free for issues that are easily fixed with a little training.


But he is teaching the owners to be cruel to the dogs. Doesn't that bother you at all?



> Ever see the other British show called “It’s Me or the Dog” I like her methods of lecturing dog owners.


It's odd that the thing you like about Victoria is that she lectures the owners. Doesn't the way she handles the dogs without using force or coersion impress you at all? Don't you think its great that she teaches the owners how to handle the dog(s) in a postiive manner?

Victoria is the polar opposite of CM. She uses positive motivation to "teach" dogs proper behavior. She rarely forces a dog to do anything. She is continuously coming up with ways to make the dogs want to act properly. Often it's just that the dogs don't know what is expected of them. They often must be taught how to live in a human world. They aren't born knowing these things and cluless owners don't know where to start.

Unfortunately these clueless owners don't understand that CM is mistreating their dogs.



> Now if only there was someone on tv who can teach people how to train their children....


There are 2 or 3 programs like that.


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## bellamicuore (Jun 16, 2008)

Super Nanny is the human equivalent to It's Me or the Dog. I love Victoria Stillwell! Here is her bio from her website:
http://www.victoriastilwell.com/bio


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## domari (Jun 17, 2008)

RawFedDogs said:


> Many of CM's methods are cruel both mentally and physically. If you can get the same results quicker with positive motivation, why put the dogs through such traumatic methods?
> 
> A good trainer can train dogs completely with positive methods. Back in the days I was training, I rarely even used a leash except to teach dogs to walk on a leash.
> 
> ...


You seem to be quick to read between the lines and missed the point. So explaining the rest of what I think about these two trainers will just be a waste of my time. 

As far as nanny shows, I watch tv around 2-3 hours a week at the most, usually newschannels or weather. So if there are shows like that I never heard of them.


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## domari (Jun 17, 2008)

bellamicuore said:


> Super Nanny is the human equivalent to It's Me or the Dog. I love Victoria Stillwell! Here is her bio from her website:
> http://www.victoriastilwell.com/bio


I watched her show when there was a dog that a teenage girl spoiled, the dog was nasty and would even let the girls mother in her room. She lectured the girl and the mother about how they lived, how they cared for the dog and created a monster. I liked her style.


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## RawFedDogs (Jun 16, 2008)

domari said:


> You seem to be quick to read between the lines and missed the point. So explaining the rest of what I think about these two trainers will just be a waste of my time.


I got your point just fine. Your point is that no matter how much force, stress, pain and coersion is put on the dog, as long as behavior changes to the desired behavior, then it's ok to use them even if someone else can accomplish the same goal in a completely prositive manner.


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## BoxerMommie (Jun 26, 2008)

RawFedDogs said:


> I got your point just fine. Your point is that no matter how much force, stress, pain and coersion is put on the dog, as long as behavior changes to the desired behavior, then it's ok to use them even if someone else can accomplish the same goal in a completely prositive manner.


No offense but in this case you totally read between the lines and that was uncalled for. I know Domari said as long as the method is not cruel, so I'm pretty sure that that throws out stress, pain and coersion as obviously that would be cruel.


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## RawFedDogs (Jun 16, 2008)

BoxerMommie said:


> No offense but in this case you totally read between the lines and that was uncalled for. I know Domari said as long as the method is not cruel, so I'm pretty sure that that throws out stress, pain and coersion as obviously that would be cruel.


"We might not all agree with everything CM does, but if it works, so what."

That was part of Domari's post also. There is no reading between the lines with that sentence. It says what it says. Coersion is CM's main tool. Stress is also a tool he uses often. I have seen him use pain quite a bit, too.

I've seen all that and I rarely watch the show anymore. I watched it for the first year but it turned my stomach so now I only watch it once or twice a season.

Don't worry about offending me. Thats pretty difficult to do. People a lot more talented at it than you have tried and failed.


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## BoxerMommie (Jun 26, 2008)

Well obviously nobody here is lobbying that cruelty to animals is right, so I would assume that she meant whatever method if it gets the job done as long as it isn't cruel is fine, especially given in the same statement she did say as long as it isn't cruel. And as I said, I don't think someone would be here saying cruelty to animals is okay so it's just about common sense.


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## RawFedDogs (Jun 16, 2008)

BoxerMommie said:


> And as I said, I don't think someone would be here saying cruelty to animals is okay so it's just about common sense.


Maybe I'm just more familiar with what goes on the in the dog training world, being a trainer for 15 years, but there is still a LOT of trainers who use cruel methods because it's easier and they don't have to think. It's the old "I've been doing it for 20 years and it's always worked and I'm not changing now" syndrome. 

The bigger problem is that owners let trainers like CM get away with their nonsense because they don't know any better. They think thats the way training is done.


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## domari (Jun 17, 2008)

BoxerMommie said:


> No offense but in this case you totally read between the lines and that was uncalled for. I know Domari said as long as the method is not cruel, so I'm pretty sure that that throws out stress, pain and coersion as obviously that would be cruel.


Thank you for reading the my words and not between the lines. The word cruel covers a lot of things, you obviously understood what I meant,


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## domari (Jun 17, 2008)

RawFedDogs said:


> Maybe I'm just more familiar with what goes on the in the dog training world, being a trainer for 15 years, but there is still a LOT of trainers who use cruel methods because it's easier and they don't have to think. It's the old "I've been doing it for 20 years and it's always worked and I'm not changing now" syndrome.
> 
> The bigger problem is that owners let trainers like CM get away with their nonsense because they don't know any better. They think thats the way training is done.


Just because you claim to be a trainer for 15 years doesn't mean you know it all. I know breeders who think just because they have been running a puppy mill for over 30 years they know it all too.

The biggest problem is with owners who don't bother with any training at all and let their dogs get out of hand. Then their dogs wind up dead in a shelter somewhere or tossed around from one home to another, because by the ripe old age of one year old they have become untrained and unwanted.


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## RawFedDogs (Jun 16, 2008)

domari said:


> Just because you claim to be a trainer for 15 years doesn't mean you know it all. I know breeders who think just because they have been running a puppy mill for over 30 years they know it all too.


Hehe, I was and am a good dog trainer. I always kept up with newest methods by attending several seminars a year and reading the latest books and reading the research. I do know what I'm talking about when it comes to training dogs and many other animals. I've not only trained dogs but also cats, rats, birds of prey, and chickens. I have studied and observed training of many wild animals from gorillas, rhino's and even killer whales. You don't use intimidation to get a killer whale to do what you want. LOL



> The biggest problem is with owners who don't bother with any training at all and let their dogs get out of hand. Then their dogs wind up dead in a shelter somewhere or tossed around from one home to another, because by the ripe old age of one year old they have become untrained and unwanted.


Agreed.


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## carnivorediet (Jul 1, 2008)

*Cesar bashing*

I always thought he (Cesar Milan) was called dog whisperer because he communicates like a leader dog. How can that be outdated. With wolves or other wild groups of canines the sub dominant members greet the leader with head low, tail low, and crouched. It is a sign of respect. This is natural and they understand this language. Why is it so bad that dogs today show this behavior with people leaders. Good mother dogs teach their pups bite inhibition. She doesnt do this with clickers and treat distractions. It is physical, quick, and then forgotten just as quickly. If this is the natural way for dogs to learn amongst themselves why is it bad for him to try and communicate in their language? I think maybe I have not watched enough dog whisperer... i just havent seen what is so awful about him. Children should be leashed and muzzled (not my quote) but dont treat a dog in anyway that could be like what they would get in a natural setting. If you dont feed them like a wolf then you are not doing the best you can do. Are you saying how they learn needs to be modernized because this part went out the window. So many dogs are petshop and byb products. A lot of these dogs are taken at 4 to 5 weeks in age so they can go through transit and quarantine and still have a few weeks of cute young puppy left for sitting in a pet shop and looking adorable. byb's sell them young because they have litters year after year and they really dont care and dont want to put any more money into them than they need to. These dogs miss out on the training that mom and other littermates provide - natural lessons. I have always seen Cesar as teaching them skills that good leader dogs and mother dogs would teach. Life in a pack is harsh and cruel (especially if you happen to be the omega) I have never seen Cesar to be even close to being that bad. I'll have to keep watching. I have used some lessons from Cesar and my dogs are happy, healthy and good citizens. I am sure he is not perfect as are NONE of us. I especially love how he pushes exercise. So many problems are from boredom and lack of stimulation. You can bash me now.


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## RawFedDogs (Jun 16, 2008)

carnivorediet said:


> I always thought he (Cesar Milan) was called dog whisperer because he communicates like a leader dog.


He says he is communicating like a leader but he isn't. A real leader doesn't need to use force, coersion, or intimidation to be a leader. Being leader is an attidude (CM says that too). My dogs know who the leader is and always obey me. I don't use force etc to get them to do it. I didn't use force, etc to teach them how to act. Thats the point I'm getting at. A good leader doesn't need to use these out of date "tools". Dogs can be taught proper behaviors using positive methods. THATS the modern way.



> With wolves or other wild groups of canines the sub dominant members greet the leader with head low, tail low, and crouched. It is a sign of respect. This is natural and they understand this language.


Most of the documentarys about wolves you see on TV are made with artificial packs. There are places you can rent background AND animals to make your documentary. These are assembled packs of dogs who were strangers to each other. Their behavior isn't normal. It's a necessary behavior for the situation they are in but none the less it is not the way a wild wolf pack acts.

A wolf pack in the wild is made up of the father, mother, and offpring. The father is the alpha and the mother is the alpha female. There is no disputing who it the alpha ... its always dad. No exceptions. The pack obeys him bacause he is dad. He is the oldest, smartest, most adept at survival.



> Good mother dogs teach their pups bite inhibition. She doesnt do this with clickers and treat distractions. It is physical, quick, and then forgotten just as quickly.


She can do that because she is the mother dog and thats the way mother dogs teach.



> If this is the natural way for dogs to learn amongst themselves why is it bad for him to try and communicate in their language?


Because the human is not a dog. If you want to bite the put on the neck or pick him up in your mouth by the neck, then ok, go ahead. When you try to simulate the ways of the mom, the meaning is lost by the pup.



> I think maybe I have not watched enough dog whisperer... i just havent seen what is so awful about him.


You probably watched enough. You just didn't understand what you are watching. Watch a good positive dog trainer and you will really be impressed.



> Children should be leashed and muzzled (not my quote) but dont treat a dog in anyway that could be like what they would get in a natural setting.


You are not in a natural setting and you can't duplicate it. Try as hard as you want and the dog still won't get that you are trying to simulate something. Dogs just aren't into simulations.



> Are you saying how they learn needs to be modernized because this part went out the window.


The ways dogs and puppies learn has been researched constantly in the last 25 years. Modern dog training is based on that research. How the dog's brian works is very well understood today.



> So many dogs are petshop and byb products. A lot of these dogs are taken at 4 to 5 weeks in age so they can go through transit and quarantine and still have a few weeks of cute young puppy left for sitting in a pet shop and looking adorable. byb's sell them young because they have litters year after year and they really dont care and dont want to put any more money into them than they need to. These dogs miss out on the training that mom and other littermates provide - natural lessons.


You are exacty right with those statements. The problem is that humans can't make up for those lessons taught by mom. I could always tell within 5 minutes of working with a dog if he came from a pet shop. It becomes real obvious real quick. No amount of force can correct this.



> I have always seen Cesar as teaching them skills that good leader dogs and mother dogs would teach.


Again, you aren' the mother. If you don't want to pick up the pup in your mouth, you can't simulate her. Jabbing with fingers or grabbing neck with fingers just doesn't come across to the pup to be like mom would do.



> Life in a pack is harsh and cruel (especially if you happen to be the omega) I have never seen Cesar to be even close to being that bad.


Life in the wild is not that bad for a pup. For adults, yeah, it can be.

[/quote]I am sure he is not perfect as are NONE of us. I especially love how he pushes exercise. So many problems are from boredom and lack of stimulation. You can bash me now.[/QUOTE]

A lot of what Cesar says is right. It's his actions that are often wrong. You and him are absolutely correct about exercise, however some of his methods of exercise are cruel and he has even killed a dog exercising him. You can't always take a bad behaved dog, exaust him and make him a good dog. He will soon be rested and return to his old ways. Thats one of the methods he uses on his show. He wil exaust the dog, demonstrate how good he is, then cut the cameras. I have heard many complaints about how Cesar trained dogs return to their old ways as soon as he is gone. Part of that is the owner's fault. Part is Cesar's.

As I have said. There are probably 10,000 better trainers in the US.

I don't see this as bashing. I see it as informing. I hope you do too.


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## carnivorediet (Jul 1, 2008)

RawFedDogs said:


> Most of the documentarys about wolves you see on TV are made with artificial packs.
> 
> A wolf pack in the wild is made up of the father, mother, and offpring. The father is the alpha and the mother is the alpha female. There is no disputing who it the alpha ... its always dad. No exceptions. The pack obeys him bacause he is dad. He is the oldest, smartest, most adept at survival.


There is really no need for me to respond except you always assume people dont know what they are talking about.

I have followed the yellowstone re introduction. I am a wyoming native and my mother still lives south of the park. The first wolves were not complete pack transplants, but they formed packs and were observed over many years and generations and still are today. I would not deem these observations of that of artifical packs. There are journals on the web going back to the beginning. The alpha males constantly reminded their pack members who was boss, especially at mating time. Being dad is not enough to keep that status believe me. Seemed that the alpha females usually had a sister that challenged her. All I am trying to say is raising dogs is not rocket science for some and we dont all need a phd, dogs still have instinctual, natural behaviors that I think Cesar picks up on. You said you can not emulate a mother dog, but picking a kitten/pup up by the scruff for example will calm it... even by a human _hand_. I call that instinctual behavior for them to calm and go limp. I did that with a young pit at the vet office i worked for. I opened the door to leash her and she bolted straight for another kennel and a fence fight ensued. Instinctually I picked her up by the scruff and litterally carried her to another room to leash her. It was fast, she didnt resist or cry out and I didnt get bit. Was I horrible for getting physical. I am pretty sure she didnt hold a grudge or have mental damage due to it. I didnt hold a grudge either, she was never like that with other boarders so i didnt expect it. Life went on, I was just more careful. If Cesar has killed a dog then he for sure has gone too far and I would never use him without being present, but I have read the anti-Cesar links and I see some opinions that are a tad over dramatic about how he trains too. A great parent/dog owner is one that has it in them naturally. If you dont then you need trainers and counselors. The flavor of the thread seemed to be dont you dare be harsh in anyway to dogs.... but kids... muzzle and leash them. Yes I know it was a joke you dont need to inform me. I just didnt find it funny.


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## RawFedDogs (Jun 16, 2008)

carnivorediet said:


> I have followed the yellowstone re introduction. I am a wyoming native and my mother still lives south of the park.


Cool, must be great being that close to wolf happenings. 



> The first wolves were not complete pack transplants, but they formed packs and were observed over many years and generations and still are today.


And they were artificial packs. I'm sure by this time there have been several "natural" packs formed in the park. I hope you see the difference. In the artificial packs, the alpha is the biggest meanest strongest wolf there. In the natural packs, it's daddy.



> I would not deem these observations of that of artifical packs. There are journals on the web going back to the beginning. The alpha males constantly reminded their pack members who was boss, especially at mating time.


Yes, you are right, alpha males constantly had to remind pack members because he wasn't the daddy as in a natural pack. Because the pack wasn't comprised of mama, daddy, and their offspring, they were artificial packs put together by humans. Eventhough they were in the wild, they were still a pack created by humans. They had to work out their own order. Order is already created in the natural pack.



> Being dad is not enough to keep that status believe me. Seemed that the alpha females usually had a sister that challenged her.


In a natural pack, the alpha female wouldn't have a sister in the pack. She would be mama to all the pack members except the daddy.



> All I am trying to say is raising dogs is not rocket science for some and we dont all need a phd, dogs still have instinctual, natural behaviors that I think Cesar picks up on.


Agreed about the rocket science. Cesar talks a good game about picking up on the natural behaviors but if he knew more of what he was doing, he could use those natural behaviors in a positive way to get the results he wants. I know ... I did it for years. Cesar rarely does anything positive with a dog.



> You said you can not emulate a mother dog, but picking a kitten/pup up by the scruff for example will calm it... even by a human _hand_. I call that instinctual behavior for them to calm and go limp.


Thats not so much instinctual behavior but nerves in the neck but basically, yes, you are correct.



> I did that with a young pit at the vet office i worked for. I opened the door to leash her and she bolted straight for another kennel and a fence fight ensued. Instinctually I picked her up by the scruff and litterally carried her to another room to leash her.


You took the correct action. 



> It was fast, she didnt resist or cry out and I didnt get bit. Was I horrible for getting physical.


No but thats not what I'm talking about in Cesar's case. He will often extend all 5 fingers on a hand and jab the dog in the neck with them hard to correct a bad behavior. HE SAYS, its simulating mama biting the neck but I don't tihnk the offending dog/pup sees it that way. Dogs don't generalize things at all. To the dog, it was a human jabbing him in the neck with 5 fingers not mama biting him. That action is painful, unnecessary and not real productive. There are better more positive ways to handle situations like that. If you want to simulate mama biting him on the neck, then bite him on the neck.



> If Cesar has killed a dog then he for sure has gone too far and I would never use him without being present, but I have read the anti-Cesar links and I see some opinions that are a tad over dramatic about how he trains too.


He definately did it. It was in the newspapers and on TV news. I think the dog belonged to a movie or TV producer and he sued Cesar. Cesar had the dog tied on a treadmill and ran him to death.

Well the place to look is the boards/lists of dog trainers and watch them discuss Cesar. I used to be a dog trainer for 15 years and I know a lot of people still training dogs. I don't know a one that has anything positive to say about him. Victoria Stillwell on the other hand is spoken highly of in dog training circles. She is the polar opposite of Cesar.



> The flavor of the thread seemed to be dont you dare be harsh in anyway to dogs.... but kids... muzzle and leash them. Yes I know it was a joke you dont need to inform me. I just didnt find it funny.


You don't need to be harsh with dogs. You weren't harsh in the story you just told. Humans are supposed to be much smarter than dogs and should always be able to outsmart them. Using coersion, force, and intimidation just aren't necessary if you know better ways. If you don't know better ways, you shouldn't be on TV training dogs.

That wasn't me that made the statement about the kids. You can train kids with positive motivation also. It is a little more difficult, but a long way from impossible.


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