# Duncan is going BARF



## luvMyBRT (Mar 8, 2010)

I have a feeling this post may end up kinda long...so if you stick with it I applaud you! LOL. :tongue:

So a while back I became friends with someone who has a BRT pup that is related to Duncan (same mother, different father). His BRT has Canine Hyperuricosuria. This is when urate stones form in the kidney and bladder. These stones form from excess uric acid in the dogs urine. They can cause blockages that can be life threatening if not treated properly. Needless to say the majority of the time these stones need to be surgically removed which costs thousands of dollars.

These are the types of stones that are in the Dalmatian breed. I have learned that every single Dalmatian out there is affected with this condition. So they all have a great chance of developing these stones if diet and other things are not watched and taken into consideration for the dogs entire life (I must also say that these stones can also form in spite of all you do prevention wise. There is a MUCH greater if not absolute chance of stone formation if you don't do something to try to prevent them).

Black Russian Terriers are also a breed where this condition is prevalent. It is not as common as in the Dalmatians, but it is showing up more and more. BRT breeders are now learning more about this. They are testing their dogs more and breeding accordingly.

There is a DNA test that can be done to see if you dog is a)normal b) a carrier OR c) affected. It is the dogs with the results saying it is affected that are in trouble.

So due to the suggestion of my friend I had a test done for Duncan. The test results came back HU/HU which means that he has 2 mutations for this condition and is affected. He is susceptible to developing these stones...just like a Dalmatian. 

After crying for a whole day, the shock and sadness wore off as well as the udder anger and hate toward the breeder. Duncan has been delt this card and I must make sure I am there to help him every step of the way for his entire life. My new obsession is to learn as much about this condition as possible and to do anything and everything in my power to prevent any stones and blockages.

So due to the way urate stones form, dogs with this condition need to stay away from foods/meats that are high in purines. These are organs, game meats, red meats, and sardines. For a dog on a PMR diet this is not good news. Something needs to take the place of those missing components. So it is here that the veggie/fruit puree and some various supplements come into play. 

I have been doing A LOT of research on this topic. I have come into contact with some wonderful Dalmatian people who have offered advice, help, and support. They have all directed me to the "Dalmatiam Raw Diet", which is a modified barf diet geared towards dogs with this problem.

I cannot tell you how upset I am knowing that I have to make this kind of change to Duncan's diet. It goes against all that I have learned and believe about how to feed a carnivore. As you all know....I am a total PMR junkie. HOWEVER, thanks to Natalie, I got to thinking....I am sure that Canine Hyperuricosuria is not all that common in wild carnivores...LOL. More than likely this condition is not even found in wolves. So...I must do what is BEST for Duncan. At this time a modified barf diet is what I am comfortable feeding him.

So Duncan's low/moderate purine diet is as follows:

Chicken backs, quarters, whole, etc.

Turkey necks, wings, etc.

veggie/fruit puree containing any of the following: apples, peaches, melons, bananas, blueberries, mango, butternut squash, yellow squash, collard greens, kale, carrots, zuchinni, sweet potato, green beans, celery, red green yellow pepper, etc.

Eggs

Vitamin B, Vitamin E, Kelp, Cod Liver Oil

He can have lamb and beef on occasion. 

Another part of the diet is cottage cheese and yogurt. However, I am still not sold on this knowing that dogs are lactose intolerant. I am still researching the benefits to this...if there are any.

So basically, that's it. I have to do what is best for Duncan. After all my research and talking to some Dalmatian breeders I feel that this is the best way for me and Duncan to head. What is nice is that I can always change things....add this, take away this as I see fit. 

I REFUSE to put him back on kibble let alone a Rx Diet. No way. This way I can still feed him raw fresh foods and I know exactly what he is eating.

However, I am glad to report that Lucky (and all my future dogs) will remain on a hard core PMR diet. Like it should be for all healthy dogs.

So now there will be someone on the board with a little bit of knowledge on this condition as well as BARF diets (trying to look on the bright side here...). :biggrin:


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## Ania's Mommy (Feb 8, 2009)

I'm so sorry to hear this!! But you are a great mommy. Look at you, all researchin' and stuff! I'm so happy to hear that you are WILLING to do what it sounds like Duncan needs. SO many pet owners aren't. 

You gotta do what you gotta do. Duncan is a lucky boy to have a mommy that cares so much and will research until her brains turn to mush in order to ensure he has a perfect life.

I also gotta say that I'm a little excited to have a BARF-er on board (what an unfortunate name, though). We get to learn about the "other" raw diet. :biggrin:


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## DaneMama (Jun 27, 2008)

You've just gotta do what's best for him. All dogs are a bit different, Duncan is just a bit more different. 

What nutrients are found in purine heavy meats are essential and not found in other "safe" and appropriate foods? I would figure out which ones that need to be replaced with a supplement or fruit/veggie purée. Are all of those fruits and veggies a necessary component? I would find out if you really need all of them or if there are a specific few that will work. 

We will all still be here for you the entire step of the way...even if you have issues that we may or may not be able to help with. 

Side note: I have a friend that feed nearly 90% chicken quarters and turkey necks the other 10% is fish and maybe pork to her dogs (no other supplements or anything). She's been feeding this way for like 3 years. So essentially she has yet to introduce organs at all...so I'm wondering if anyone knows how long it would take for deficiencies to show? I would think that 3 years would be long enough...? Maybe organs aren't as essential as we think? Her dogs get some organ meat from the tiny bit that's on the quarters though....


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## luvMyBRT (Mar 8, 2010)

This is what I have found so far:

Liver: Vitamin A. Also contains Vitamin D, E, and K. And excellent source of zinc, manganese, selenium and iron. Contains all the B vitamins. Vitamin C. It is good quality protein and has essential fatty acids.

Kidneys: Vitamins A, D, E, K, B. Protein, fatty acids, iron, zinc.

Heart: Protein, B vitamins, Iron. Taurine.

All of these vitamins, minerals, etc. need to be replaced somehow, somewhere.

Broccoli: Vitamin C. Beta carotene, folic acid, calcium, fiber. Chromium. 

Spinach: Iron. antioxidants. Potassium, vitamins A, B, K.

Celery: calcium, potassium, phosphorus, sodium and iron, vitamins A, B, C. 

Carrot: vitamin A, B, C, D, E, K, riboflavin, niacin, calcium, potassium, phosphorus, sodium, and iron. 

Eggs: calcium, all the vitamins except vitamin C, fatty acids, amino acids, biotin and zinc.

So these are just a few to look at....
I think they list such a big variety of veggies and fruit (as well as supplements) so all the lost nutrients that are found in organs and red meat are covered. I will continue to look into this. I would love to find a few select veggies/fruit that would cover it all. Maybe it can be done...maybe it can't.

With (white meats) chicken and turkey being some of the lowest meats with purines, these are what is recommend to use for RMB. It is advised to feed all other meats in moderation....some say only 2-3 times a month for dogs who are stone formers.


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## DaneMama (Jun 27, 2008)

What vitamins and minerals and nutrients are in "white" meats like chicken, turkey and some fish? Is pork off limits?


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## RachelsaurusRexU (Sep 4, 2010)

Oh noes!!! I'm so sorry  But you're STILL feeding him the very best, and it's tailored to his needs. You're an awesome, dedicated momma, and that rules! Those pups are lucky to have you!


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## BrownieM (Aug 30, 2010)

There are much worse things you could be feeding your dog than a BARF diet :wink:


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## RachelsaurusRexU (Sep 4, 2010)

LOL! True story! You could be feeding Beneful.... *shudder*


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## MollyWoppy (Mar 19, 2010)

Yeah, most people wouldn't bother to do the research, they'd grab the nearest kibble the vet told them to and that would be that. I'm really sorry to hear that about poor ol Duncan, that stinks.


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## luvMyBRT (Mar 8, 2010)

danemama08 said:


> What vitamins and minerals and nutrients are in "white" meats like chicken, turkey and some fish? Is pork off limits?


This is what I found so far,

Chicken: phosphorus, potassium, selenium, B vitamins, zinc, protein

Turkey: chromium, phosphorus, potassium, selenium, B vitamins, protein 

Average Purine content of the following meats (total purines in mg uric acid/100g):

chicken 110
Turkey 128
Rabbit 132
Beef 133
Duck 138
Venison 138
Mackerel 145
Pork 160
Lamb 182
Beef Kidney 218
Chicken Liver 243
Sardines 480
Calf Liver 460
Pork Liver 515

I have yet to find what the content would be for fresh Talapia.....but am still looking.


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## luvMyBRT (Mar 8, 2010)

Also want to thank you all for your kind words. Makes all this easier for me. :smile:


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## whiteleo (Sep 7, 2008)

There shouldn't be any explaining to do! Duncan needs a special diet and Sara's going to do whatever it takes to make sure he gets it! Enough said! Good luck with all the research, I can give you good advise on the best kelp to buy your dog!, and I do believe there is probably someone that you might want to talk to that is in the co-op.


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## hcdoxies (Sep 22, 2010)

In regards to his affected status, keep in mind that this does not mean he will ever develop these stones.

We have a DNA test for PRA (progressive retina atropy) in dachshunds. PRA is not very common, but we have a DNA test for it now and many breeders (though hardly all of them) test for it and breed accordingly (no affected dogs, only carries or clear, carriers are never breed to carriers, etc).

My point, again, is that just because a dog comes back as "affected" hardly means that they will get PRA.

So, stop crying! Hope for the best, and all that jazz 

Curiously, why were you blaming the breeder, if you don't mind me asking. If this is not something that is common and just being heard of, maybe the breeder didn't know? PRA only came into the light maybe 18 months ago for doxies. I wonder how many affected doxies are running around, but not having ever been diagnosed with PRA!


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## sassymaxmom (Dec 7, 2008)

Are you feeding bones? It looks like good hydration is a big part of the battle and feeding fresh food will really help that. Is there a target purine level per day? It helped me so much to have that exact number of milligrams of phosphorus to be able to plan Sassy's food. 

I have this list of food purine levels bookmarked. 
Purine table
Here is another one easier to read with the source given.
Foods High in Uric Acid
It looks like oysters are low in purines and they are a powerhouse of zinc, copper and B12. Pig brain has quite a lot of Omega3. This list looks like beef muscle is as low in purines as chicken. Might want to ask the experts in this, there may be a lot more to purine level than this one number.

Use Nutrition facts, calories in food, labels, nutritional information and analysis – NutritionData.com, http://www.nal.usda.gov/fnic/foodcomp/search/ and/or Canadian Nutrient File - Food Search for accurate information on what foods contain what as amounts matter a great deal. I adore ND as you can use tools to search for a given nutrient. If you have the NRC requirements you can put those into My Preferences and while purine levels won't be there the mg of copper, B vitamins and all that will come up in My Tracking for your dog's needs so you can easily see if the diet is going where you need it to go.


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## luvMyBRT (Mar 8, 2010)

Thank you so much for all this info Sassy! Great links. 

I am finding that certain charts/lists will have different levels of purines for certain foods. They are not all the same.

I will look into all you have posted as it looks to be very helpful! :smile:


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## DaneMama (Jun 27, 2008)

Sounds like you've got this down to the nitty gritty.....good on you for doing such extensive research. I would love to know what your methods/feeding plans are just for reference. Plus...I would *love* to do a post on the PMR blog about it if thats alright for you. I want it to be known that PMR is a great way to feed a dog, but some dogs need a diet that is extra special. Keep us posted and thanks for doing such a good job with Duncan!

And I'd like to echo what hcdoxies said about him being affected and him *actually* producing stones. Just because he is affected doesn't mean he will produce them. BUT its best to do what you can to prevent them. Don't let this take away from your enjoyment of owning sweet Duncan :biggrin:


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## luvMyBRT (Mar 8, 2010)

hcdoxies said:


> In regards to his affected status, keep in mind that this does not mean he will ever develop these stones.


Yes, I do realize that. Thank you. However, knowing that Duncan has a close sibling (same mother, different father) that did develop these stones has me on alert. This dog battled these stones for quite a long time. Ended up in a surgery to have stones removed, and almost had to have a second surgery to have his anatomy rearranged as to pee like a female dog (thus making it easier for stones to pass). This owner spent thousands of dollars. I would much rather be safe than sorry and start some form of prevention early on in hopes to not have Duncan go through something like this.


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## k9capture_16 (Aug 23, 2010)

My friends two Dalmatians arent given any organs and very little red meat because of this condition in Dals. I hear they have to get their minerals etc from another source like veggies.


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## luvMyBRT (Mar 8, 2010)

danemama08 said:


> > Plus...I would *love* to do a post on the PMR blog about it if thats alright for you. I want it to be known that PMR is a great way to feed a dog, but some dogs need a diet that is extra special.
> 
> 
> For sure! :biggrin: That would be totally great! I feel that knowledge is power....and I am in the process of learning so much right now. You can update the blog as we go and as I learn new things.
> ...


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## Lin (Nov 4, 2010)

Duncan is so lucky to have you as a mommy! I can only imagine how distressing this must've been, especially as it isn't the sort of thing one 'fixes' easily, but it looks like you will still be able to give him an excellent nutritional base (even if it's a little modified.)

What excellent research you've been doing.


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## Khan (Jan 17, 2010)

Duncan is so far ahead of the curve to have you for his pawrent!
I read an article not too long ago about this. As far as the Meat/Poultry category goes, the organs are what is listed as High (more than 200mg) 
The Muscle of beef, chicken, lamb, and pork are all listed as moderate (50-200mg) as well as lamb liver, rabbit, turkey and venison.
The fish category looks to have a pretty good size list of moderate choices also.
I also notice that the article states it's not the quantity of protein that causes urate problems; it's the type of protein. Goes on to say that a urate-prone dog may thrive on protein rich diet that are low in purines, while these same dogs can develop stones after eating low protein foods that contain high purine ingredients.
I'm sure you've got this info just thought I would pass it on.


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

saraj2878 said:


> Yes, I do realize that. Thank you. However, knowing that Duncan has a close sibling (same mother, different father) that did develop these stones has me on alert. This dog battled these stones for quite a long time. Ended up in a surgery to have stones removed, and almost had to have a second surgery to have his anatomy rearranged as to pee like a female dog (thus making it easier for stones to pass). This owner spent thousands of dollars. I would much rather be safe than sorry and start some form of prevention early on in hopes to not have Duncan go through something like this.


ounce of prevention and all that is how i roll...good for you to take the bull by the horns and try preventative....

my husband does have high uric acid levels and we do the same thing....we avoid foods high in purines..although we do consider certain foods as treats....

tilapia, if i remember correctly is not high in purines and is on the list of foods he can eat.

i applaud you, sara.


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## luvMyBRT (Mar 8, 2010)

Thanks Re. :smile:



Khan said:


> Duncan is so far ahead of the curve to have you for his pawrent!
> I read an article not too long ago about this. As far as the Meat/Poultry category goes, the organs are what is listed as High (more than 200mg)
> The Muscle of beef, chicken, lamb, and pork are all listed as moderate (50-200mg) as well as lamb liver, rabbit, turkey and venison.
> The fish category looks to have a pretty good size list of moderate choices also.
> ...


Hi Gina! I pm'd you as I would love to have this article to read. I have been finding that different lists will have different levels of purine listed for different foods. None are really the same. I am finding this a bit bothersome. I have seen that venison is a meat to stay away from....as well as beef and pork. I can't wait to get this article and see what it says. :biggrin: Thank you.

I have learned from some long time Dalmatian breeders that chicken is the protein that should make up a big portion (RMB wise) of Ducnan's diet as it is the meat that is the lowest in purines. However, he can have other meats, but on a limited basis.


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## Caty M (Aug 13, 2010)

Are you doing a true BARF diet where everything is ground, or are you going to feed whole parts except for the veggies?

If you want to feed full parts but your dog won't eat the veg, you can mix it with a bit of canned green tripe to make it super smelly (and yummy - ugh!) to your dog.


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## luvMyBRT (Mar 8, 2010)

bishopthesheltie said:


> Are you doing a true BARF diet where everything is ground, or are you going to feed whole parts except for the veggies?
> 
> If you want to feed full parts but your dog won't eat the veg, you can mix it with a bit of canned green tripe to make it super smelly (and yummy - ugh!) to your dog.


Thanks for the tips! I am still feeding RMBs in the form of chicken backs, quarters, and turkey necks. This way Duncan can still get the dental benefits. He is still getting whole raw eggs too. The only change really is in place of organs and a variety of red meats he gets a veggie/fruit puree plus a few extra supplements a few times a week.

In his veggie puree I have ground up some chicken breast to make it more enticing. He just gobbles it right up. However, the tripe idea is a great one! I'll have to look into it. :smile: Where would I find some canned tripe?

Robin-where do you get yours? Is it through the co op or some other place?


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

saraj2878 said:


> Thanks for the tips! I am still feeding RMBs in the form of chicken backs, quarters, and turkey necks. This way Duncan can still get the dental benefits. He is still getting whole raw eggs too. The only change really is in place of organs and a variety of red meats he gets a veggie/fruit puree plus a few extra supplements a few times a week.
> 
> In his veggie puree I have ground up some chicken breast to make it more enticing. He just gobbles it right up. However, the tripe idea is a great one! I'll have to look into it. :smile: Where would I find some canned tripe?
> 
> Robin-where do you get yours? Is it through the co op or some other place?


i can answer for robin. yes, from the co op....you can see the product line at greentripe.com

there's one that i like very much...has natural chondroitin in it and it's the tripe plus trachea blend.....i'm going to order that next time...stinks to high heaven but the dogs love it.


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## Caty M (Aug 13, 2010)

Any good pet store should have it.. I use Tripett canned tripe. It's the only one without a ton of ingredients in it. 

And I applaud you for doing your research..! He is still getting a great diet 10000x better than kibble!


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## whiteleo (Sep 7, 2008)

The canned tripe by Trippet would work, but I suggest that you maybe try to do the whole raw tripe that we get through greentripe.com we get a great price through the co-op and maybe you could split a case with someone.


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

there's usually a pretty large group in oregon that gets tripe orders....head on over to GreenTripe.Com Main Index

nice selection....if not for robin, my dogs wouldn't be eating tripe...now it's a necessity.


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## jackied (Oct 19, 2010)

Very sorry that your dog has been diagnosed with this.



> I am sure that Canine Hyperuricosuria is not all that common in wild carnivores


Wild animals do get ill. Then they die. If whatever it is kills them before they reproduce, and there is a heritable component, it is not going to spread through the population. If there is a dietary contribution to the disease, tough. They don't have the _option_ of eating anything else. 

Since dogs _do_ have the opportunity to eat other things and in addition receive veterinary treatment, they are subject to different evolutionary pressures - in this case inadvertently resulting in the increased prevalence of a disease that may be triggered by diet.

Sidestepping the PMR issue for a moment, there has been a mass die-off of greenfinches in the UK caused at least in part by people feeding them. Not because the artificially provided food is bad for them - a possibility that was considered - but because congregating at often dirty bird feeders encourages the spread of a disease. Cause and effect are not always easy to disentangle. 

The point of choosing any diet, surely, is to maximise your dog's health, not to adhere religiously to a principle. I really hope he thrives on it.


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## k9capture_16 (Aug 23, 2010)

Sara if you want I could contact the lady I know who has a Dal that she feeds raw. I can find out a sample of her menu and stuff she avoids etc if you would like me too?


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## luvMyBRT (Mar 8, 2010)

k9capture_16 said:


> Sara if you want I could contact the lady I know who has a Dal that she feeds raw. I can find out a sample of her menu and stuff she avoids etc if you would like me too?


That would be awesome! Thank you so much. :smile:
That is something that I have been interested in. I am trying to keep a good variety going for Duncan, so seeing some examples would be great. 

I would really appreciate it.


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## k9capture_16 (Aug 23, 2010)

I sent her a message on face book, I will put her reply here when I get it.


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## k9capture_16 (Aug 23, 2010)

Wow that was a fast reply here is what she put

"" A raw diet is doable... but not necessarily a prey model raw diet. Organs will need to be cut out and exchanged with a pureed veggie/fruit mix. The diet will consist mostly of chicken since that is what is lowest in purines, but depending on how bad the hyperuricosuria is... you may be able to get away with 2-4 red meals a month or so... the veggie mix can consist of green leafy veggies (besides iceberg lettuce... doesn't really have anything in it), carrots, sweet potatoes, cucumbers, green beans, apples, bananas, kiwi, strawberries, blue/black/rasberries... and process it in a processor to almost a liquid consistency. Freezing will also help further break down the cell walls. For my 50 lbs dalmatians, they get about 1/4-1/2 cup every other day or so... (I will fill a container, feed that until it's gone, give a couple days, then open a new container) If you start looking on google for dalmatian raw diets, you will get a lot of good answers. "" She said you can also feed a chicken/duck/turkey/white meat type of deal she also gives salmon oil/vitamin e, and is going to add in kelp supplement because it has a lot of good vitamins in it... 

I think thats all she said...


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## luvMyBRT (Mar 8, 2010)

Does her name happen to be Monica? If so I have been talking to her too and this is also what she told me. :biggrin:


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## k9capture_16 (Aug 23, 2010)

LOL Yes that would be Monica


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## luvMyBRT (Mar 8, 2010)

k9capture_16 said:


> LOL Yes that would be Monica


It's a small world....LOL. :biggrin:


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