# All Raw Feeding Not Safe



## jerrypardue (Jan 4, 2013)

check out these sites  and another is [url]http://truthaboutpetfood2.com/natures-variety-issues-voluntary-recall-of-one-batch-of-instinct-raw-organic-chicken-formula-for-dogs-cats Cut and paste these into your browser and read these very important articles about the quality of raw pet food products.


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## Losech (Jul 10, 2012)

So, because one _commercial _brand of raw food had salmonella recalls, that means that all rawfeeding, regardless of formulation or type, is unsafe? Sure. How many recalls have there been on salmonella contaminated kibbles recently? A lot. And remember those other kibble recalls about plastics, and rancid fats? Yeah. So, according to your "logic" all kibbles are also unsafe.


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## DaViking (Sep 27, 2011)

Any random dog probably gobbles up more bacteria, including salmonella, from bird droppings etc. than they will be exposed to from their diet, raw, kibble or other. So, this get's a meh from me.


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## naturalfeddogs (Jan 6, 2011)

There is salmonella in all raw. The warnings are mostly directed at people. Dogs generally won't have problems out of it.


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## BeagleCountry (Jan 20, 2012)

Nothing is 100% safe.

Wasn't it Diamond where plastic pieces from a safety hat or ball point pen were found in the kibble?

The Bravo and Steve's Real food are poultry products. Rather purchased by the ton or at the local grocery store salmonella is to be expected. Raw feeders know to be careful. I am far more concerned about salmonella in kibble, a product that is to be processed at a temperature high enough to kill the bacteria, than I am with raw.

Other than high pressure processing (HPP), I have no idea how poultry based pre-made raw food could be made available without testing positive for salmonella. HPP will change it from being a true raw food.


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## FBarnes (Feb 17, 2013)

BeagleCountry said:


> Nothing is 100% safe.
> 
> Wasn't it Diamond where plastic pieces from a safety hat or ball point pen were found in the kibble?
> 
> ...


The FDA or USDA or some such entity doesn't allow premade dog food to have any bacteria in it. Weird rule, but true. I believe they kill the bacteria with very high pressure, or some such. It's supposed to be totally sanitized before your dog eats it.


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## BeagleCountry (Jan 20, 2012)

To me, a "not for human consumption" label should cover it. Guess we have to protect those who do not get the concept that a hot cup of coffee will burn human skin. My guess is, if the rules are as you stated, the dog food industry, agricultural interests and perhaps the AVMA had undue influence which is intended make it very difficult for anything raw related to succeed.

It is my understanding that there is one pre-made raw, Natures Variety?, that uses HPP. It was done due to pressure from Petco before they would sell the product. What are the other pre-made raw producers using to sanitize their food?


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## Dude and Bucks Mamma (May 14, 2011)

Today, one of my dogs licked rabbit poop. Yesterday, one of the others licked the back fence. Every day, they ALL lick their own arses. Raw meat has nothing on what the average dog takes in in daily life.

Bacteria is everywhere. No matter how hard we try we cannot escape it. Raw meat and kibble all have bacteria in them. Clean up after your meal prep just like you would for your own meals involving raw meat. 

No matter what you feed you should always be aware of recalls and keep your ears open for them. The same goes for what you eat. The food we eat can also be recalled. We had an egg recall locally here last year.


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## lauren43 (Feb 6, 2011)

Completely unrelated to topic: dukesandbucksmom it's very nice to see you back!!! I demand pictures of the new addition!!!

Ok continue with your discussion.


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## Savage Destiny (Mar 16, 2011)

BeagleCountry said:


> It is my understanding that there is one pre-made raw, Natures Variety?, that uses HPP. It was done due to pressure from Petco before they would sell the product. What are the other pre-made raw producers using to sanitize their food?


Stella and Chewy's was the original premade raw to use HPP. They kind of pioneered the process. NV started using HPP after they had to do a huge recall when the FDA found salmonella in their chicken formulas. Primal uses HPP on some of their formulas now too. It's my belief that eventually all premade raw companies will start using HPP eventually to protect themselves from costly recalls.


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## FBarnes (Feb 17, 2013)

I find it hugely ironic that chicken meant for humans can be chock full of salmonella but chicken meant for dogs must contain zero salmonella


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## Mandy (Aug 30, 2012)

I cringe everytime that I see a recall on dog food. Whether it's kibble or premade raw, it's just scary to see the these foods getting recalled for whatever reason. Pet owners put their trust in these dog food companies who are supposed to be in the business of making healthy foods for our pets. It's just sad we can't even trust them. I personally feel a million times safer feeding raw. I know even meats made for human consumption can have recalls, but honestly in my 7 months of feeding raw I have not heard of one recall on the meats. Compare that to the dozens of dog food recalls. Hmmmm... which one really is better again?


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## Savage Destiny (Mar 16, 2011)

FBarnes said:


> I find it hugely ironic that chicken meant for humans can be chock full of salmonella but chicken meant for dogs must contain zero salmonella


The reason chicken meant for human consumption doesn't get recalled for salmonella is because it is going to be cooked, thus killing the salmonella. That's why they slather warnings all over the packaging about cooking it to proper temperature. Foods that aren't 
generally cooked to high enough temperatures to kill salmonella, like greens or peanut butter, do get recalled if salmonella is found. But chicken pretty much all has salmonella, and it is meant to be cooked, so it's pretty low risk. 



Mandy said:


> I cringe everytime that I see a recall on dog food. Whether it's kibble or premade raw, it's just scary to see the these foods getting recalled for whatever reason. Pet owners put their trust in these dog food companies who are supposed to be in the business of making healthy foods for our pets. It's just sad we can't even trust them. I personally feel a million times safer feeding raw. I know even meats made for human consumption can have recalls, but honestly in my 7 months of feeding raw I have not heard of one recall on the meats. Compare that to the dozens of dog food recalls. Hmmmm... which one really is better again?


Blaming premade raw companies for having recalls due to salmonella in raw chicken formulas is pretty silly. Of course the raw chicken has salmonella, it's raw chicken. There's nothing the companies can do besides HPP to prevent that, which is costly and gets slammed by most raw feeders. I remember a Nature's Variety rep being really up front with us (I work part time at a pet store) a few years back that if the FDA inspected their plant, they'd find bacteria on the chicken and there would be a recall. That absolutely happened, and after that they switched to the HPP. Raw companies can't be blamed on recalls due to bacteria naturally found in the raw products they make and sell. The FDA is really to blame for scaring people about bacteria when it's a normal part of feeding raw and to be expected. 

Now, kibble still having bacteria like salmonella after being cooked is a whole different ball game. That puts people at risk because they're handling a product they think is safe.


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## FBarnes (Feb 17, 2013)

Savage Destiny said:


> The reason chicken meant for human consumption doesn't get recalled for salmonella is because it is going to be cooked, thus killing the salmonella. That's why they slather warnings all over the packaging about cooking it to proper temperature. Foods that aren't
> generally cooked to high enough temperatures to kill salmonella, like greens or peanut butter, do get recalled if salmonella is found. But chicken pretty much all has salmonella, and it is meant to be cooked, so it's pretty low risk.


yes, but it doesn't matter if chicken meant for dogs has salmonella in it. It should be handled the same way by humans - wash hands, etc. as raw chicken that's going to be cooked.


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## Sapphire-Light (Aug 8, 2010)

I'm pretty sure there's salmonella in everyday things like in supermarket shopping karts, people put raw meat, eggs and veggies all the time, you can even see how the blood from the meat drops in them.... and employees just clean them wit a wet rag and a spray bottle wit water, they don't clean them wit a strong disinfectant.


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## jaber6 (Feb 21, 2013)

Dumb question, but can someone explain why salmonella doesn't effect dogs, as much as it does to humans? I keep seeing different answers around the internet. Figure I try to get answers from raw feeders.


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## FBarnes (Feb 17, 2013)

jaber6 said:


> Dumb question, but can someone explain why salmonella doesn't effect dogs, as much as it does to humans? I keep seeing different answers around the internet. Figure I try to get answers from raw feeders.


I think there are two reasons - first, the enzymes in a dog's mouth will destroy bacteria more quickly than humans. There have been some trials done where dogs' saliva was tested shortly after eating food with salmonella and the saliva contained no salmonella.

The acidity and enzymes in a dog's stomach are built to destroy bacteria. 

well, I guess three things. I think a dog's much shorter digestive system aids in passing the bacteria through. A dog's feces will often have salmonella in it whether kibble or raw fed. Their bodies aren't made to process, process, process food. Get it in, dissolve it, get it out.

Edited to add: it's why people who worry about dogs licking their face right after eating isnt' a real worry.


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## wolfsnaps88 (Jan 2, 2012)

Just a theory but I am guessing short transit time in the digestive tract (no time to set up and colonize) and higher acidity in the stomach. 

jaber6, I like your pic. Its adorable.


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## naturalfeddogs (Jan 6, 2011)

jaber6 said:


> Dumb question, but can someone explain why salmonella doesn't effect dogs, as much as it does to humans? I keep seeing different answers around the internet. Figure I try to get answers from raw feeders.


Mostly because a dogs stomach acids are about ten times stronger than ours with a much shorter digestive tract. Raw digests too fast for bacteria to set up and cause a problem.


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## jaber6 (Feb 21, 2013)

Makes sense. So if properly handled, shouldn't really be a real issue, unless you're careless with raw food. I don't understand why some people freak out, as if they don't cook themselves and touch raw meat. They must wear gloves when cooking then.

wolfsnaps88, thanks  I couldn't decide which pic to use. But this was the runner up . Sorry for going off topic


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## kathylcsw (Jul 31, 2011)

jaber6 said:


> Makes sense. So if properly handled, shouldn't really be a real issue, unless you're careless with raw food. I don't understand why some people freak out, as if they don't cook themselves and touch raw meat. They must wear gloves when cooking then.
> 
> wolfsnaps88, thanks  I couldn't decide which pic to use. But this was the runner up . Sorry for going off topic


The runner up pic is totally adorable!! Sorry to stay off topic.


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## DaViking (Sep 27, 2011)

Stomach acidity, short transit time for the digesta and an abundance of among others enterococcus faecium inhibit the growth of pathogens. In terms of salmonella there isn't much difference between a raw fed dog and a kibble fed dog. But..., the risk of getting ill progressively increase the more time the kibble take to break down and make it's way through the digestive system. Two examples come to mind; Nutreco Wholesome Blend GF Chicken is on the big side, barrel shaped, dense/tough as nails and takes forever to dissolve. The opposite is Royal-Canin Mini Adult, thin and star shaped, medium density and dissolves quickly speeding up the transit time making it easier on the stomach.


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## wolfsnaps88 (Jan 2, 2012)

Jaber6, I can see why you had a hard time deciding on a pic. That dog....so much adorableness. 

I am not sorry to stray off topic. 

Of all the raw fed dog forums and groups I frequent, my question is this: if these deadly bacteria are such a big deal in raw food and all these dogs eating raw are exposed to it, then why do we not hear more about dogs becoming ill and even dying from it? Whether in the social forums or in the news. I am sure the media would love to do stories warning on the evils of feeding a raw diet and showing pictures of a handsome dog that died from raw.


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## FBarnes (Feb 17, 2013)

Funny we were just talking about this and I get this article in my email - Susan Thixton is explaining exactly why raw pet food can contain no salmonella and grocery store chicken can be covered up in it:

A Regulatory Rant


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## doggiedad (Jan 23, 2011)

i don't think the OP is saying "all raw isn't safe" quantitatively. i think the OP means some raw isn't safe but that really applies
to the batch that was being served. salmonella is overrated.



Losech said:


> So, because one _commercial _brand of raw food had salmonella recalls, that means that all rawfeeding, regardless of formulation or type, is unsafe? Sure. How many recalls have there been on salmonella contaminated kibbles recently? A lot. And remember those other kibble recalls about plastics, and rancid fats? Yeah. So, according to your "logic" all kibbles are also unsafe.


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## Celt (Dec 27, 2010)

jaber6 said:


> Makes sense. So if properly handled, shouldn't really be a real issue, unless you're careless with raw food.)


From personal experience, even if meat is handled "carelessly" , it is pretty difficult to get sick from it. I generally try not to cross contaminate but it does happen and feeding the pups doesn't involve keeping them in a certain spot, or feeding outside and I'm pretty iffy on whether I'll do more than wipe up any "drippings". So far, no one has gotten sick (knock on wood). To be honest, I think you have to actually eat something that's contaminated to get sick or it be a rather strong strain.


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## FBarnes (Feb 17, 2013)

I rinse with water, and I've licked my fingers without thinking when they had raw meat juice on them. I've cut myself numerous times when cutting up meat for my dogs. I am careless. I only wash up well after every meal in the summer when flies are around; otherwise, I leave the cutting board and rinse it off at night before I go to bed.

I do try not to cross-contaminate - we have another cutting board for everything non-meat. I guess that's my only real concession. My personal belief is that the more we try to kill germs, the less our bodies are prepared to fight them and the more they mutate into stronger and more deadly germs. I don't use antibacterial soaps, either. I carry non-bacterial soap in my pocket so even if I am in a public restroom I don't have to use the antibacterial. I buy alcohol wipes rather than antibacterial wipes. 

When I clean thoroughly, I use a mild bleach solution or vinegar or Comet. I am surrounded by germs, and I think it's why I don't get colds, or flu, or infections from cuts etc.


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## DaViking (Sep 27, 2011)

Honestly I never give this much thought except for the usual kitchen hygiene. The issue I think is that there are others with more "hysteric" views on this, and they have the right to their opinions of course, and when my pooch on a constant basis sheds harmful bacteria that washes down to where their kids are playing for example the effects goes beyond me and my family.


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## DaneMama (Jun 27, 2008)

I'm not a germa-phobe...I think being afraid of bacteria and being too "clean" promotes grounds for a weak immune system. I wouldn't say I'm careless...moreso that I just don't care that much. I do understand bring cautious when its necessary though for immune compromised people and their pets.


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## Tobi (Mar 18, 2011)

Lol, tobi loves to give bloody kisses... I should have been sick by now, but to no avail, I can't catch salmonella even if I try...


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## Celt (Dec 27, 2010)

Today, I had someone tell me that they made sure to freeze the chicken wings they feed to kill any salmonella they might contain. I didn't think freezing affected salmonella?


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## FBarnes (Feb 17, 2013)

Celt said:


> Today, I had someone tell me that they made sure to freeze the chicken wings they feed to kill any salmonella they might contain. I didn't think freezing affected salmonella?


i don't think it effects it. Scientists store bacteria in sub-zero temps. I think freezing only affects parasites.


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## Elliehanna (Jan 16, 2012)

pretty sure that freezing just kinda puts it in a stasis like not continuing to grow colonies.

anyhow something that really annoys me and someone touched on it, properly washing hands...I mean does it kill you to use soap, 15 seconds of scrubbing then rinse...I have a pretty bad soap allergy but I will be damned if I walk out of the bathroom...the kitchen...changing a diaper...eating...ANYTHING without washing my hands BEFORE AND AFTER, my hands crack about 5 times a day and bleed but you know what...I have had a stomach bug 1 time in my life...ok....enough ranting lol


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## FBarnes (Feb 17, 2013)

Elliehanna said:


> pretty sure that freezing just kinda puts it in a stasis like not continuing to grow colonies.
> 
> anyhow something that really annoys me and someone touched on it, properly washing hands...I mean does it kill you to use soap, 15 seconds of scrubbing then rinse...I have a pretty bad soap allergy but I will be damned if I walk out of the bathroom...the kitchen...changing a diaper...eating...ANYTHING without washing my hands BEFORE AND AFTER, my hands crack about 5 times a day and bleed but you know what...I have had a stomach bug 1 time in my life...ok....enough ranting lol


I found out something very interesting and I may be off a little bit but too lazy to go back and look - washing with water gets rid of 96% of germs, washing with regular soap gets rid of 99% and washing with antibacterial soap gets rid of 99.2%. Or something very similar to that. I wash my hands with soap once or twice a day but I wash with water often. And I sing "happy birthday" while I wash my hands because that's about 20 seconds.


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## Elliehanna (Jan 16, 2012)

yea those numbers sound right, but see most people don't wash for the length or right, they just kinda rinse in about 2 or 3 seconds, don't scrub the fingers or anything. I use antibacterial just because I am OCD about it, I don't was under scalding water though which is supposed to help too (my skin is beaten up enough lol)


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## Savage Destiny (Mar 16, 2011)

Have you tried using gloves? Grooming kills my hands, and washing them all the time at home was making them even worse. I've started wearing nitrile gloves (allergic to latex) for feeding the animals, preparing our food, doing dishes, cleaning, everything. It has made a HUGE difference. If I need to say, stop in the middle of feeding, I just wash my hands with the gloves on, so the gloves are clean, then do whatever it is. My hands are seriously so much better now.


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## Elliehanna (Jan 16, 2012)

I have tried but I break out in gloves (maybe its the powder, maybe its the latex) ganna have to try some nitrile ones, where do you get them?


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## Savage Destiny (Mar 16, 2011)

Latex gloves make me break out in rashes. It's weird, because I'm fine with latex dog toys, it's just something about the gloves. I get my nitrile gloves at Costco, they come in a pack of 400 for $19. I've found small packs of them at places like Safeway in the cleaning section though. Most places that sell latex gloves will also sell some nitrile gloves for people who are allergic to latex. They don't have any powder on the inside like latex gloves either. 

I hated wearing gloves at first, I thought it was a pain in the butt. But I did it because my hands, like yours, were cracking open and bleeding. Washing my hands made me want to cry because it hurt so bad. Now I'm a glove addict because it's made such a difference. My hands are still dry, but they're not horrific.


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## Dude and Bucks Mamma (May 14, 2011)

Savage Destiny said:


> Latex gloves make me break out in rashes. It's weird, because I'm fine with latex dog toys, it's just something about the gloves. I get my nitrile gloves at Costco, they come in a pack of 400 for $19. I've found small packs of them at places like Safeway in the cleaning section though. Most places that sell latex gloves will also sell some nitrile gloves for people who are allergic to latex. They don't have any powder on the inside like latex gloves either.
> 
> I hated wearing gloves at first, I thought it was a pain in the butt. But I did it because my hands, like yours, were cracking open and bleeding. Washing my hands made me want to cry because it hurt so bad. Now I'm a glove addict because it's made such a difference. My hands are still dry, but they're not horrific.


I react funny to latex as well. Latex gloves don't bother my skin one bit no matter how long I wear them but bandaids and medical tape with latex in them make me SO itchy even if I wear them for an hour. It has been confirmed that it's the latex... I don't get it...


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## BrownieM (Aug 30, 2010)

BeagleCountry said:


> To me, a "not for human consumption" label should cover it. Guess we have to protect those who do not get the concept that a hot cup of coffee will burn human skin. My guess is, if the rules are as you stated, the dog food industry, agricultural interests and perhaps the AVMA had undue influence which is intended make it very difficult for anything raw related to succeed.
> 
> It is my understanding that there is one pre-made raw, Natures Variety?, that uses HPP. It was done due to pressure from Petco before they would sell the product. What are the other pre-made raw producers using to sanitize their food?


Primal also uses HPP on their poultry products. I am not certain if they started using it on their non-poultry products. Stella & Chewy's also uses HPP.

And...Petco sells Nature's Variety raw?! Not mine! Crazy!


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