# off leash control question



## bridget246 (Oct 26, 2011)

Bridget is currently going through her off leash control training and I wish we had started it sooner. My trainer is teaching me how to get Bridget ready for agility and we are breaking many of the rules I fought so hard to set in obedience training. To set Bridget up for success should I hold back on the obedience training for now? Give the new recalls and downs a different command and just focus completely on that? It seems like it would be confusing to try to push Bridget through both at the same time when they are so different.


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## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

The commands are different? Can't you use the same as you do in obedience? When we were in agility classes, we just used what we had always used. I agree - that sounds confusing.

Also in obedience, the trainer would let us pick our own commands if we wanted to. He used German. Since I had started Rebel before I started going to him, I just kept the commands I had been using all along even if some of them made no sense to anyone but me and Rebel.


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## bridget246 (Oct 26, 2011)

xellil said:


> The commands are different? Can't you use the same as you do in obedience? When we were in agility classes, we just used what we had always used. I agree - that sounds confusing.
> 
> Also in obedience, the trainer would let us pick our own commands if we wanted to. He used German. Since I had started Rebel before I started going to him, I just kept the commands I had been using all along even if some of them made no sense to anyone but me and Rebel.


My commands for this class are different. The heeling, if we do heeling is done from the right and left side. The dog is not being controlled by the leash so if they are attached to the leash then forget you have it. This means no leash corrections at all, don't even use the leash to guide the dog. Recalls don't involve a sit stay. The dog races back to you as fast as they can looking at your hand so that you can point them in their next direction. Downs do not involve a sit. The down is now suppose to be a straight down from a standing position. Bridget always sat on her way to the down instead of going straight down. 

I love the energy of the class. I feel like we get a lot done and I'm actually learning. This is one of the advance classes and the instructor said I was ready for it so we are giving it a try. It is so different to see a class without corrections. Of course it would seem all the dogs in the class are pretty well behaved so we didn't have any problems the first day. I felt Bridget was behind everyone else and the instructor agreed so she gave me more homework.


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## Maxy24 (Mar 5, 2011)

It sounds to me like the agility class is just much more positive and motivational than your obedience class. I always teach obedience commands off leash because I don't use leash (or any) corrections during training. I also find when I use a leash I am restricting or guiding the dog, not letting him make his own decisions and use his brain. No leash means he is free to make errors and actually think about what he must do to succeed, he's not being guided along. It sounds like you go to a more traditional punishment and molding type obedience class, not one that uses any sort of shaping or focuses on positive reinforcement and letting the dog make decisions, so I do think it'll take some adjusting to for you but I'm glad you like the atmosphere so far, I find up beat positive reinforcement classes to be much more enjoyable for both human and dog.

What you need to figure out is whether or not the actual behaviors that are being used in agility are okay for obedience (assuming you are wanting to compete in obedience). I know for sure going straight from a stand to a down is fine, down means down no matter what the dog is doing. It's easier to just say down then to have to say sit first. It is usually taught with a sit first because it's just easier to teach new dogs and new owners.

I would teach one command for left heeling and one for right heeling (or use two different hand signals). I would only change the left heeling command from what it is now if the heeling done in agility is supposed to be farther away or not in a perfect position since obedience heeling is supposed to be very tight and specific and I wouldn't want the dog thinking he can heel out far or lag/go ahead in obedience.

If I remember correctly in obedience the dog must recall to the front position, sitting straight in front of you, and can then be directed into a heel position or whatever it is you need them to do. I would say that all you have to do to adapt the agility recall for obedience is have a hand signal that means sit in front, so as the dog is racing towards you watching your hand for the next direction you can bring it up in front of you in the hand signal for sitting in front and the dog will comply. Again, not having the dog do a sit stay first is just making a better recall, come means come no matter what you are doing. Dogs that are taught only to come from a sit stay might be caught completely off guard if you suddenly call them when they are doing anything else, they think come only means come if they were put into a sit first!

What obedience rules do you feel like you're breaking exactly? 

Good luck with the class, I'm sure you'll both love agility!


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## bridget246 (Oct 26, 2011)

On the recall. Like you said the dog is suppose to come in front of me and sit. We did always teach it from a sit or down stay. Don't know why but that is what they had us do. 

In this class the dog is just suppose to come but doesn't have to sit when they reach us. Instead we send them out to do something else and recall them over and over again sending the dog in many directions and recalling them. Our first lesson is to throw treats whiling using a key word. The dog goes to get the treat and we throw another treat in a different directions while they are getting the first treat. Recall after they enjoyed the first treat and then give them the key word and point them towards the next treats location. I've learned a few ways of doing a recall but never a way that allowed so many recalls a minute and gets the dog to follow your hand movements so quickly. 

In our dogs stay we clap our hands a lot because the audience is going to be doing a lot of clapping. If the dog gets up we are suppose to just walk over and give them another stay command so that they learn not to break stay from the sound of clapping or cheering. If they stay a little longer than last time we are suppose to walk over and reward them for it even if they aren't doing it for long enough. Improvement is the goal here, not perfection. 

In my obedience class most dogs had to wear some sort of training collar. Bridget was a prong because it was all I would agree to do and they gave me one because I kept saying I wasn't going to buy it. I never gave any leash jerks with the prong on because for me it was very self correcting and didn't allow Bridget a chance to get into trouble. Whenever I'd take it off she'd want to play because another dog was playing and we'd get lots of braking which usually lead to us being yelled at. I put up with it because I wanted to get to the classes that came after the basic and advance obedience classes. The higher classes I noticed were much smaller and a lot less corrections were being made with those dogs who were in them.

In this class Bridget actually took her leash in her mouth and played with it. The instructor said it was great because she was following me and not trying to take control or being controlled. She was biting the leash to raise her enjoyment of the class while still following along as we waved between all the dogs that were sitting in a large circle. She told me to ignore the leash biting and just be thankful she is following and she'll drop it because I didn't give it any attention. It was true, she did drop the leash on her own. Next class I'm suppose to have a leather leash. Right now I'm using a thick nylon one. 

Getting a little off topic below on my history:

From a personal stand point I was never comfortable doing things the way I learned in obedience. If Bridget broke her stay I never wanted to get angry. I brought her to class to bond with her. Never liked wearing a prong collar instead of the normal collar for corrections. But every trainer who was willing to work with Bridget didn't want a buckle collar on her. I didn't agree so we only used the prong for obedience class. I might use it to take her to places like festivals with lots people, dogs and all kinds of distractions where a small jump can cause a problem. Bridget isn't upset with the prong on because I never correct with it. She just knows that she can't go running off without it correcting her. Before the prong closes I think the chain makes a sound that she recognizes as what comes before it makes a correction and that sound breaks her distraction so she can focus on me. 

I brought "101 Dog Tricks: Step by Step Activities to Engage, Challenge, and Bond with Your Dog" to help increase my training. The author showed me how to shape Bridget into what I wanted her to do without a big play on corrections. I swear in my obedience class they never taught me a stand. But one day they asked to see Bridget do it. Well... I didn't know how. That book didn't go into detail on how to teach it either. I resorted to using the search engine on this site and Google to find out how to do it. This is the type of training I was using in the shelter to work with their hyper dogs. The results came much faster when I was using their energy in a positive way to get what I wanted instead of fighting against it and trying to force them into something. 

Another important thing I felt I had to do was bring in another training who was not a part of my club to show me how to do a proper correction in the event that I wanted to use it. This way I could make one quick fast correction(without prong) and go right back to being positive. Doing the corrections wrong just lead to more problems and slowed our forward progress. 

My club offers lots of different classes taught by different instructors with the option of asking an instructor to personal teach something that may not be offered. Each instructor handles things differently. I can always change times and instructors if one class wasn't working for me. It just seemed like every basic and advance obedience class I seen over focused on having full control. The off lead class is more of what I wanted when I joined the club so I'm happy to finally be learning it. I had to bite my tongue for awhile to get there though.


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## Celt (Dec 27, 2010)

I've always trained 2 recall commands. "come" which is the basic obediance command and "to me" which pretty much means head in my direction which could then be directed "away" , "swing wide", "left", "right", etc. Maybe you could do something similar.


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## bridget246 (Oct 26, 2011)

Celt said:


> I've always trained 2 recall commands. "come" which is the basic obediance command and "to me" which pretty much means head in my direction which could then be directed "away" , "swing wide", "left", "right", etc. Maybe you could do something similar.


Yep that is what I was asking about. That way she doesn't get the two confused.

I forgot to mention the down changes. Their down is a drop the ground. It is faster. Bridget sits and then lays down. It is the way I showed her how to do it so it is my fault. Now I will just have to retrain her to go straight down and I'll give it a new name.


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## IslandPaws4Raw (Sep 7, 2011)

bridget246 said:


> Yep that is what I was asking about. That way she doesn't get the two confused.
> 
> I forgot to mention the down changes. Their down is a drop the ground. It is faster. Bridget sits and then lays down. It is the way I showed her how to do it so it is my fault. Now I will just have to retrain her to go straight down and I'll give it a new name.


You can use different commands for the different disciplines, "here" for agility for example. For me I would just mix them up all the time, so I just stick with "come". As you get into higher levels of agility though you'll find that the recall is used less and less, because you will be working at a distance from Bridget. She will be getting her cues more from your body language than anything else. So don't worry too much about her getting confused between the two. Maybe try giving her a verbal clue as to what she will be working on like "lets go play" for agility. Even the difference between which collar you put on will clue her into what's about to happen.

There are different types of agility with different rules. Do you know which one your club is attached to? AKC, USDAA....etc I ask because our club pretty much follows AKC rules. With that said, don't stress too much about the drop command, she won't be a speed demon anyway because of her size. If it's AKC they don't require downs on the table anymore. As long as all four feet are on the table the count is going on, so they can even stand there. 

Agility is fun! And yeah it's more focused on positive training methods. 

A good drop on command will be needed if you go to the higher levels of obedience as well, so even though she's programmed to sit first it might be easier to teach her the drop now.


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## bridget246 (Oct 26, 2011)

It is akc. But they will show me other ways of doing it later on if I wish to go that route.


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## Celt (Dec 27, 2010)

Oh, I just remembered (I haven't trained the spoiled brats to the same level as my other dogs), I used the commands: drop which meant lay down instantly wherever the dog was and in the "sphinx" position so they could get up quickly, lay down was for a "lazy" down (the sit first kind) and relax. Then there was hold- stay in that spot but the dog could change position, and stay which meant don't move until told to. There was a bunch of others but I think those would be the most "useful"


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## StdPooDad (Mar 16, 2012)

No need to give it a new name, unless you *want* two separate down commands.
I started clicker training Teaghan a few weeks ago, it is AMAZING! I just stood in the living room with a clicker and treats and waited for her to do something. I didnt expect the complete down behavior, but I just stood and watched her, clicker at the ready.

She wandered around, sat down, kind of lost. Then she sniffed the ground (click and treat), she bent a leg (c/t), she bent both front legs (c/t), etc...
It took two session, FIVE MINUTES TOTAL! Now when I take her into the living room with a clicker and treats, she looks at me and drops straight down. I hadn't done much clicker training before, as matter of fact I hadn't done any. I had done "training with a clicker", i.e. luring her into the complete behavior, then clicking and treating for the finished behavior. 

This is NOT clicker training. Clicker (or marker) training lets the dog work it out for themselves. A friend of mine has clicker trained dogs, they will offer all sorts of behaviors, their little doggie brains are thinking sometning like "what do I need to go to get a treat! I'll figure it out..."





bridget246 said:


> Yep that is what I was asking about. That way she doesn't get the two confused.
> 
> I forgot to mention the down changes. Their down is a drop the ground. It is faster. Bridget sits and then lays down. It is the way I showed her how to do it so it is my fault. Now I will just have to retrain her to go straight down and I'll give it a new name.


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## StdPooDad (Mar 16, 2012)

I do Nadac agility, the emphasese are on speed, smooth flows,and working from a distance, layering obstacles, etc. I've never done AKC but I've watched it once or twice, it seems that there is a lot of emphasis on tight turns, etc. 

There are really two basic commands. (some use right and left), but the two most common are come and switch. Come means come toward me, switch means turn away from me. More advanced handlers also use a "tight" command, meaning turn, but turn on a dime!

I don't know how much distance work there is in akc agility but it's awesome to watch someone running back and forth behind an imaginary line directing their dog from 100 feet away or more. Most of what the dog does in terms of turning, is looking at the handler. I mean, you can tell them to come, switch, turn, etc. until you're blue in the face, but if you tell the dog to go a certain way and your feet or shoulders are turned another way, forget it. Body position trumps voice every time. 

I've learned a technique called "drawing the path" All this means is, point a foot or so ahead of there your dog is going. If you pull your arm in and push it out (sewing machine arm), your dog will come in on you. 

I was at a practice session a couple weeks ago. A woman ran her dog through a tunnel, then down a sequence of three jumps. She was running too close to the jumps, had to pull her arm in so she didn't hit the jump standard. Sure enough, her dog pulled in and almost tripped her. It was clear that the moment she pulled her arm in the dog followed. 



bridget246 said:


> It is akc. But they will show me other ways of doing it later on if I wish to go that route.


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## StdPooDad (Mar 16, 2012)

bridget246 said:


> Bridget is currently going through her off leash control training and I wish we had started it sooner. My trainer is teaching me how to get Bridget ready for agility and we are breaking many of the rules I fought so hard to set in obedience training.


This book: Teaching the Dog to Think: My Year of Dog Agility Training with My Collie, Willow by Kimberly Davis, is an amazing book! A woman came from a background of teaching the dog using coercion, she started going to agility training, the transformation was quite amazing. I read it, couldn't put it down.


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## StdPooDad (Mar 16, 2012)

I was looking through some other forums today, noticed you had asked about training treats some time ago. Did you ever find some good ones? I have a *super* picky diva poodle named Teaghan and one that will take about anything named Seamus. Seamus loves Zukes mini naturals, Teaghan spits it out if I give it to her. Seamus' big OMG, OMG TREATS!!!! treat is string cheese. 

Teaghan will take a hot dog, but she doesn't really like them. She's not even crazy about steak, I've tried it all. 
Teaghan's favorite is microwaved, lightly garliced chicken breast. I have some other recipes she likes as well. If you're interested I can send them to you.
A friend that lives in the middle of nowhere in ranch country gave me some smoked elk heart. Teaghan liked it!


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## Dude and Bucks Mamma (May 14, 2011)

bridget246 said:


> *First off, let me start by saying that I have never taken an agility class and probably won't until we get our dog after Buck because I just don't think he is cut out for agility work. He is an obedience dog through and through but not so much agility. Maybe a class would be fun to do just for the heck of it though.*
> 
> My commands for this class are different. The heeling, if we do heeling is done from the right and left side.
> 
> ...


My replies in bold.

IMO your obedience classes sound horrendous! I wouldn't have been able to stay in that class. An obedience class should be fun, informative, and useful. If you don't normally train your dog in a prong you shouldn't be forced to use one in class. We don't attach a leash to his collar but we just use the Mendota british style slip leads so it's basically just a rounded collar but the collar and leash are all one piece. In both of our classes combined the only dog who uses a prong collar is the big airedale and he needs it. He is excitable and his owner is a small older woman but this guy has made HUGE improvements. Everyone else uses a no pull harness. One pup just got moved to a gentle leader because she is young, rambunctious, and her owner is recovering from knee surgery. That's it. The halter was only recommended by our trainer. She left it up to the pup's owner. The others have no trainer influence on their choice of control.


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## StdPooDad (Mar 16, 2012)

I've never done obedience so I can't really comment knowledgeably, except to agree with you that the obedience class sounds HORRIBLE! I would have been out of there a LONG time ago.


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## bridget246 (Oct 26, 2011)

Dude and Bucks Mamma said:


> My replies in bold.
> 
> IMO your obedience classes sound horrendous! I wouldn't have been able to stay in that class. An obedience class should be fun, informative, and useful. If you don't normally train your dog in a prong you shouldn't be forced to use one in class. We don't attach a leash to his collar but we just use the Mendota british style slip leads so it's basically just a rounded collar but the collar and leash are all one piece. In both of our classes combined the only dog who uses a prong collar is the big airedale and he needs it. He is excitable and his owner is a small older woman but this guy has made HUGE improvements. Everyone else uses a no pull harness. One pup just got moved to a gentle leader because she is young, rambunctious, and her owner is recovering from knee surgery. That's it. The halter was only recommended by our trainer. She left it up to the pup's owner. The others have no trainer influence on their choice of control.


I couldn't find any obedience classes that weren't hard on Bridget. 'Sit means sit' used this clubs starting obedience as their selling points. The sales rep knew all about it and just knew he made a customer when I agreed with him. Too bad I didn't want his stimulus collar on Bridget because that meant he didn't have the customer he thought he had. I kept looking around for places. Finally I settled for the club. It was the best I could find and it was only going to be like this from the start. Now that I'm an actually member I can join anyone's class. Not all instructors are the same. It reminded me of school. In my easier classes they kept so much control over me I couldn't grow. My performance was lower and kept dropping. I decide to go against the school by finding shady ways to get into more advance classes. Funny how I went from a failing student to a honor roll student. Some people just don't work well with too much control and that is what society does to people they think are stupid. 

The obedience does work for a lot of people. Not everyone's dog needed to be forced to do things. Just a few, Bridget was one of those few when I felt like I was practical forced to take the prong. It is understandable because at that level they are so full of people who aren't serious about their training and they never planned on going higher so the higher classes are much smaller. My first class I switched. The instructor told me if I didn't get more rough with my dog she was going to do it for me. That wasn't going to happen so I only went through the first day. 

Why was Bridget acting up? Because she is young and her trainer was inexperience so I was seeking out classes to get that experience and people kept telling me my dog shown the fitness and intelligence of a champion that was going to be little harder to work with at first. After using the prong for awhile I have to say it didn't help my experience at all because when I take it off she goes back to having some of the same problems. What has helped me the most is convincing Bridget to want to do right in class by her choice. That is what the off lead class is helping me with. Even the sit means sit guy told me after obedience it will all be good and he recommends going their after getting his obedience. I don't know why everyone recommended taking away all of Bridget's control but I didn't like it. Even petsmart class wanted Bridget on a gentle leader for her and they were suppose to be 100% positive.


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## Dude and Bucks Mamma (May 14, 2011)

I like the halters. I don't own one but I use Buck's lead to make a makeshift one. They are wonderful for strong, hardheaded dogs and sometimes it is just what a dog needs. But I think it should be up to the owner. Unless the class's safety is at risk, the owners need to be able to decide how they want to control their dog and the trainer needs to stay out of it. If I want to use a halter, my trainer doesn't need to be telling me to use a prong. If I want to use a no pull harness, the trainer doesn't need to be telling me to use a halter.


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## bridget246 (Oct 26, 2011)

Dude and Bucks Mamma said:


> I like the halters. I don't own one but I use Buck's lead to make a makeshift one. They are wonderful for strong, hardheaded dogs and sometimes it is just what a dog needs. But I think it should be up to the owner. Unless the class's safety is at risk, the owners need to be able to decide how they want to control their dog and the trainer needs to stay out of it. If I want to use a halter, my trainer doesn't need to be telling me to use a prong. If I want to use a no pull harness, the trainer doesn't need to be telling me to use a halter.


I doubt we will disagree much when it comes to a few of those classes not being what most of are wanting or looking for in a obedience class. I don't think they allowed things like gentle leaders and no pulls stuff. 

The good news is the off leash class assumes all you know is sit, stay, down, touch and come. She still went over them briefly as everyone seems to join her class at different places in their training.


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## bridget246 (Oct 26, 2011)

My trainer agreed that I shouldn't have to use a prong. Instead I'm just suppose to warp her leash around her when she is in her pulling mode. Then take it off after a few minutes. 



StdPooDad said:


> I was looking through some other forums today, noticed you had asked about training treats some time ago. Did you ever find some good ones? I have a *super* picky diva poodle named Teaghan and one that will take about anything named Seamus. Seamus loves Zukes mini naturals, Teaghan spits it out if I give it to her. Seamus' big OMG, OMG TREATS!!!! treat is string cheese.
> 
> Teaghan will take a hot dog, but she doesn't really like them. She's not even crazy about steak, I've tried it all.
> Teaghan's favorite is microwaved, lightly garliced chicken breast. I have some other recipes she likes as well. If you're interested I can send them to you.
> A friend that lives in the middle of nowhere in ranch country gave me some smoked elk heart. Teaghan liked it!


I use beef jerky that I make myself. I fully cook it instead of making it part way. I figured raw is safe and cooked is safe. But partly cook is not safe for a dog or human to eat. Going to make some pork jerky to go with it this weekend. Would love to throw out sardines but I can't find a large amount of them for a decent price that doesn't have a ton of salt.


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