# Ok.. so maybe raw isnt that bad...



## Kat (Jul 12, 2011)

Soooo I feel stupid... I've always been afraid of raw, and after kibble wasnt working out for my 1.5 year old pug Ruby, I decided to start homecooking about a month ago. She's doing better with home cooked but still not as good as I hoped. And, she's lost a almost a pound in a month (I have a baby scale so I weigh her often). Anyway, with the home cooking her teeth werent getting much benefits from it, so I have to brush her teeth daily. I started thinking about RMB's but thought it would be the furthest I would ever want to pursue raw. But about 15 minutes ago I gave Ruby chicken drumstick bone with most of the meat taken off to see how she would do, and she went CRAZY! Her tail was wagging the entire time, and her eyes were wide with excited. I must say she was a natural, after a few licks of it she went right into it and started ripping off the meat and biting into the bone. As a pug she loves food and she does get happy, but I have never before seen her this happy. She licked up every last piece of the chicken bone that she could find. It makes me think maybe I should give this raw food thing a try, but I just don't know where to start, and what the proper amounts are, etc. Today at my local grocery store I discovered in their butchers section that they carry whole rabbit, venison, and several cuts of beef and pork that I have not seen in the regular prepacked area. And I also found an organic and local farm who sells a small amount of their meats at that location aswell. How slowly does raw have to be introduced to a dog? Is it easier on their systems to intro raw if they have been fed home cooked?


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

LOL that's funny. 

our pugs love their food....most people think they are garbage cans but i have found my pug has a very discerning palette.

he loves most foods, actually all of them, but raw? he loves the most.

go painfully slowly...so slowly it hurts.....watch the stools and stay on chicken because it's easy to digest and helps them get used to eating raw.

in the beginning, you go a little bone heavy and give a little less than what you would normally feed....until she is stable...

don't give her any treats from a store or anything with grains or veggies or fruits.....just bony chicken for now. if you use treats for training, take some chicken, cut it into small pieces, put it into a 200 degree oven and bake the heck out of it...

or if you have a dehydrator....use that.

all those proteins that so lovely will come later.....just not yet....no one ever wants to deal with the squirts and too much food or too rich foods will do that.

it's good that you found these proteins for the future.....and i don't know that it matters whether they are kibble fed or home cooked before going to raw. bubba was home cooked before we switched to raw.
good luck should you decide to continue.....

raw changed my pug's health and his life.


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## Kat (Jul 12, 2011)

I just checked her ears, and they are perfect, not even slightly red! Even with homecooked they got a bit red. Shes following me everywhere hoping for more I think, everytime I walk by her she starts to jump lol. I will see how she is for tonight and if she doesnt throw up, I would be willing to continue venturing into raw. IF everything works out, for her breakfast tomorrow how would I do it? Feed her her cooked turkey and add a few small chunks of raw chicken and another whole drumstick bone? I dont feed any treats, so that wont be an issue with me, when I stopped feeding kibble, I stopped all pet store related foods. Raw seems so confusing to me >.<


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

if you want to continue with raw, you won't need to feed her home cooked....

it's such a wow diet....it's life changing....

you just close your eyes, take that leap of faith and feed her the boniest piece of raw chicken you've got....

we started with backs....but if she does well on drumsticks that's fine....

my pug is 19-20 pounds...and has is built like a stocky tank...so his meals are about 2 1/2 ounces maybe 3 at the most....try to keep it about that much....just in the beginning...

stay on chicken for at least a week.....and see how she does.....you just want to watch her stools...

it's not uncommon for dogs to vomit or have bone shards in their stools...it's not an expectation....but it can happen.

just know that it's normal.....

i think you're very brave doing this for your dog. she's gonna love it...her ears, her teeth, her health...her pugginess..


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## hmbutler (Aug 4, 2011)

Kat said:


> As a pug she loves food and she does get happy, but I have never before seen her this happy. She licked up every last piece of the chicken bone that she could find.


That's the same as my lab when I started him on raw  he always sits and waits for his meals, I put it down and say ok, then he just scoffs into it. But after the first raw meal, I'd tell him to sit, which he would, but as soon as I go to put his bowl down he'd run to it haha too excited to wait! I'd have to keep saying stay until he let me put it down lol


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## tem_sat (Jun 20, 2010)

Kat said:


> Feed her her cooked turkey and add a few small chunks of raw chicken and another whole drumstick bone?


My one and only major mistake was to feed a chicken drumstick bone with the meat removed, before I knew a single thing about what I was doing. Please don't do that! If needed, remove the skin and fat but don't feed naked bones.


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## Lisa_j (Apr 7, 2011)

Well, good for you and your baby! Make sure you take all of the skin off the chicken for now too. I would just give her another skinless drum. Make sure it is not enhanced either. As far as amount goes, feed her 2% of her body weight or a bit less to start with. Congrats!!!!! It is always exciting to hear of someone new feeding raw!


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## Northwoods10 (Nov 22, 2010)

Everything Re said. 

Bone in chicken for at least a week, maybe two. Watch her stools. They should be firm but not too firm that she's constipated. 

If you see some loose stools, cut some more skin off and offer more bone. All of my dogs did fine with skin on pieces, but I know for some dogs the skin needs to be removed starting out. 

2-3% of your dogs ideal adult weight should be fed per day. 80% meat, 10% bone, 10% organ. For now you aren't going to worry about organs AT ALL, and more bone than 10%. You want to offer bone heavy meals to ensure good stools and go from there. I would start out on the light side of the feeding scale too, 2% and go from there. Its better to feed less at first, feeding too much can cause issues too. 

I promise its not as complicated as it sounds. After a few days of raw meals you'll both start to get the hang of things and realize what is normal, what to watch for, and what to avoid. 

Best of luck-you will both love it.


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## frogdog (Aug 10, 2011)

I'm new to this as well and finishing my premade raw now...then will leap into the PMR. This site from my understanding was wriiten by two users on here and is very informative. Helped me a lot! Will guide you along.


Dedicated to proper carnivore nutrition - Prey Model Raw Feeding for Dogs & Cats


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

tem_sat said:


> My one and only major mistake was to feed a chicken drumstick bone with the meat removed, before I knew a single thing about what I was doing. Please don't do that! If needed, remove the skin and fat but don't feed naked bones.


at the time, kat was homecooking but wanted to feed some not quite totally stripped bones for her dog to chew on....i don't think she removed all of the meat....it was for the dog's teeth.....

now she is seeing her dog doing flips, so is considering going forward..so now the meat should be left on.


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## tem_sat (Jun 20, 2010)

magicre said:


> at the time, kat was homecooking but wanted to feed some not quite totally stripped bones for her dog to chew on....i don't think she removed all of the meat....it was for the dog's teeth.....
> 
> now she is seeing her dog doing flips, so is considering going forward..so now the meat should be left on.


Ok! Just making 100% sure so that now I can sleep tonite! :wink:

I sorta knew no one would be as big a dingbat as I was to have done that anyway!


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## Kat (Jul 12, 2011)

So I have to feed her dinner now... should I just feed a raw chicken drumstick that is 2.5 ounces, with just the skin removed but keep all the meat on it? Or should I start that for her breakfast tomorrow since she already ate a chicken bone with some meat on it a few hours ago? And I didnt feed a naked bone, I removed most of the meat but it still had some meat on it, she ripped the meat off first then ate the bone.


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## Kat (Jul 12, 2011)

Or, since she would still have the bone in her stomach, should I just feed the rest of the raw chicken that i took off of the bone tonight for her dinner? Now Im scared I took too much meat off of the bone... what happens when a dog eats just the bone?


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## Northwoods10 (Nov 22, 2010)

Its not ideal to feed a raw bone w/o meat, but as long as she chewed it up I wouldn't worry. You usually want to feed raw bones covered with a nice amount of meat. You might see some puke tonight with bone in it, or some bone shards in the poop tomorrow. No need to worry. 

What did you feed for breakfast and how much did you feed for a snack? I am probably going to say wait until morning and feed a chicken drumstick w/o skin. How much does she weigh? Lets figure out how much raw she should be eating everyday.


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## Kat (Jul 12, 2011)

She weighs 17 pounds right now. She doesnt get snacks, just breakfast and dinner. For breakfast she had 1/2 cup cubed boiled turkey breast. And then when I got home from work at 6 today I tried the chicken drumstick with some meat on it. Since the bone didnt have a lot of meat on it, for dinner right now I just fed her 2.5 ounces of the raw skinless chicken that was cut off the bone I fed earlier. She chewed the bone up nicely from what I saw, I held it the whole time while she ate. The chicken she ate right now, she chewed some of it, but mainly just swallowed the chunks, since it wasnt a whole chunk of meat from me cutting it off the bone earlier.


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

Kat said:


> So I have to feed her dinner now... should I just feed a raw chicken drumstick that is 2.5 ounces, with just the skin removed but keep all the meat on it? Or should I start that for her breakfast tomorrow since she already ate a chicken bone with some meat on it a few hours ago? And I didnt feed a naked bone, I removed most of the meat but it still had some meat on it, she ripped the meat off first then ate the bone.


yes, feed the chicken drumstick. maybe take the skin off. that's a nice weight. 2.5 oz per meal.

watch her stools. that will tell you the whole story.

don't be confused, please. it's a lot easier than you think.

especially since all you are feeding her is going to be chicken with bone. and only a certain amount. 

we don't move forward unless she is stable for a while and you're nice and calm.


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

Kat said:


> She weighs 17 pounds right now. She doesnt get snacks, just breakfast and dinner. For breakfast she had 1/2 cup cubed boiled turkey breast. And then when I got home from work at 6 today I tried the chicken drumstick with some meat on it. Since the bone didnt have a lot of meat on it, for dinner right now I just fed her 2.5 ounces of the raw skinless chicken that was cut off the bone I fed earlier. She chewed the bone up nicely from what I saw, I held it the whole time while she ate. The chicken she ate right now, she chewed some of it, but mainly just swallowed the chunks, since it wasnt a whole chunk of meat from me cutting it off the bone earlier.


so that's it for her tonight. she's about the same weight as my pug. he's a pound or two heavier.

tomorrow, give her a bone in chicken meal for brekkie and then a bone in chicken meal for dinner.

if her stools are loose, take the skin off the chicken.


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## Kat (Jul 12, 2011)

So... with the bone in it should weigh 2.5 ounces? Because the left over chicken meat from the bone I cut off weighed exactly 2.5 ounces, and it looked like a small amount. So with the bone it would be a bit more, so would I just cut meat off until its at 2.5, or you dont factor the weight of the bone into it? Otherwise i feel like she would be eating mainly bone with some meat on it. Sorry for all the questions lol, I just need to be prepared for breakfast tomorrow. Definitley happy I dont work this weekend so I can keep an eye on her lol

Oh, and I did take the skin off the chicken, just in case


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

in the beginning, you want to feed all meals with bone....if it's more than 2.5 ounces you don't want it to be much more than 2 1/2 ounces.

boneless, in the beginning, can give your dog the runs...and you don't want that.

this is one of the reasons with small dogs wings or backs might be appropriate especially since you're holding it....


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## Kat (Jul 12, 2011)

She just threw up one of the bigger chunks of meat she ate since she didnt really chew it, but she just ate it again before I could get to it. So, 2.5 ounces includes the weight of the bone, so i would be cutting off the meat until the bone with meat is at 2.5. So for a week or so she will be eating more bone then meat, until I can lessen the bone depending on how her poop is?


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## Northwoods10 (Nov 22, 2010)

Try chicken wings, they might be a more appropriate size for her. That way you don't have to fuss with taking meat off.


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## DaneMama (Jun 27, 2008)

Kat said:


> So... with the bone in it should weigh 2.5 ounces? Because the left over chicken meat from the bone I cut off weighed exactly 2.5 ounces, and it looked like a small amount. So with the bone it would be a bit more, so would I just cut meat off until its at 2.5, or you dont factor the weight of the bone into it? Otherwise i feel like she would be eating mainly bone with some meat on it. Sorry for all the questions lol, I just need to be prepared for breakfast tomorrow. Definitley happy I dont work this weekend so I can keep an eye on her lol
> 
> Oh, and I did take the skin off the chicken, just in case


Welcome to raw feeding!

Consider bone as your source of "fiber" to the dog. Fiber keeps stools firm and consistent. This is particularly important to a newly switched dog because they have a higher rate of digestive upset...the more "fiber" (in the form of bone) you feed them the firmer their stools will be. Its not safe to feed bones by themselves that aren't surrounded by muscle meat as they can be hazardous to dogs who tend to gulp things, although it sounds like your dog doesn't gulp thus far. 

In essence, in the beginning you need to feed high bone content raw meaty bones, like chicken wings, backs and necks. Those cuts are probably your best bet for your size of dog. 

The weight should include everything included in the raw meaty bone (bone, meat, skin, etc).


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## Kat (Jul 12, 2011)

Yeah, that is a good idea, Im going to buy chicken wings instead, thanks for the suggestion. When I fed her her breakfast this morning, as I was walking by she must have thought I was trying to take her drumstick away from her because she tried to swallow an unchewed piece of bone and she started to choke and ran to me to take it out for her, after that she was fine. She hasnt pooped yet, fingers crossed she doesnt get the runs lol

Edit: She just pooped, and it actually firmed up from three days ago. There are a few tiny pieces of bone in it, but it looked pretty good


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## Northwoods10 (Nov 22, 2010)

Glad to hear things are firming up. :smile:

Hopefully the wings are a better size for her, let us know how she does tonight.


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

my pug is a gulper, so drummettes didn't work well for us...but if yours isn't a gulper, then drummettes seem to be the perfect starting size....

that and backs and wings....


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## BoxerPaws (Jul 19, 2011)

I think I saw someone else link you to the Prey Model Raw site. If you haven't read it yet, GO DO IT. It will answer most of the questions you're asking, and was SO informative for me before I started feeding my puppy raw 4 weeks ago. Do your homework on the diet; you'll feel much more confident about what you should be feeding and what to be looking for!

Dedicated to proper carnivore nutrition - Prey Model Raw Feeding for Dogs & Cats


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## Kat (Jul 12, 2011)

What I wrote before "Edit: She just pooped, and it actually firmed up from three days ago. There are a few tiny pieces of bone in it, but it looked pretty good" might have been mistaken. I just gave her raw for the first time last night. Her poops have been on the softer side the the past three days due to home cooked meals. But this morning, when she pooped her raw chicken dinner from last night, is what firmed up her poop. I picked up 2 packs of organic chicken wings for her today, it will be easier to prepare than having to keep cutting off chunks of meat from the drumsticks since the serving of one drumstick is larger than 2.5oz. She threw up last night from her first raw chicken dinner, but its because she swallowed a big chunk of meat. After breakfast today she didnt throw up, she chewed more thoroughly  I will post how she does tonight at dinner with the chicken wings. Its so odd to me to see such a small serving size, 2.5 ounces seems like such a small amount of food, why feed less when going raw? I would have guessed to feed more since meat is also higher in water content than kibbles or cooked meat.


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## Caty M (Aug 13, 2010)

Homecooked contains veggies, right? They are much lower in calories and useable stuff for a dog than plain, raw, meat. So you feed more.


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## BoxerPaws (Jul 19, 2011)

Caty M said:


> Homecooked contains veggies, right? They are much lower in calories and useable stuff for a dog than plain, raw, meat. So you feed more.


Ditto this: you need to feed more home cooked food and kibbles because of all the "filler" ingredients. Raw is a more concentrated nutrient source without any of the extras you find in other diets.


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## Kat (Jul 12, 2011)

Oh I see, that makes sense.


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## Kat (Jul 12, 2011)

Wow, does their poop change that quickly when they are switched to raw? Second poop since starting raw from yesterday, and her poop is very small, dry, and crumbly. A few ''pebbles'' were a darker brown but then went more yellowish, which im guessing is from feeding just chicken?


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## Liz (Sep 27, 2010)

Our dogs did, sounds like she is doing great. Good job.


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

Kat said:


> Wow, does their poop change that quickly when they are switched to raw? Second poop since starting raw from yesterday, and her poop is very small, dry, and crumbly. A few ''pebbles'' were a darker brown but then went more yellowish, which im guessing is from feeding just chicken?


that's the beauty of raw. make an oops and within a few days of bony, correction occurs...

yes, the yellow is from feeding chicken....we need to see at least three days straight of solid stools....then we'll talk about the next step. ....which is also in natalie (danemama's) website....


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## Kat (Jul 12, 2011)

I just fed her dinner of 3 skinless chicken wings. She ate them a lot faster (then the drumstick) but it looks like she chewed them decently enough, I guess Ill have to wait and see if she throws up or not. She pooped out a big-ish shard of bone earlier, but otherwise its just been small pieces of bone that i have seen in her poop. Does raw feeding help in any way with anal glands? Because for about a month now shes been rubbing her butt against the carpet, and today shes been really rubbing her butt on the carpet. I know she doesnt have worms, she had two fecal tests this year, and she did get dewormed in june, and she is on revolution. My friend said she might just need her anal glands expressed, and she says they might be infected because of how much she was going at it today. Should I book an appointment with my vet to get her anal glands expressed or just wait and see what happens with raw feeding? She's never gotten them expressed before, but shes really going at it with the carpet lately >.<


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

do you have a scale, kat?

you may want to weigh her food to make sure she eats the amount she's supposed to eat.

three wings sounds like it might weigh in over 2.5 oz.....so i would check.

drumettes will work especially if she isn't gulping.

if she is pooping solid poo, then you can probably slowly add in some skin.

as to the scooting, the bone acting as fibre should help her express her anal glands. we had the groomer do it until we were told that feeding raw sometimes takes the manual need away.

and sometimes scooting is just that. itchy butt 

i doubt if they are infected if they weren't before..and her butt isn't flaming red and swollen, is it? or the sides of her butt, where the anal glands are?

watch her poo. if she has a tiny bit of liquid coming out after a poop, that's her anal glands expressing with no help.


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## Kat (Jul 12, 2011)

Yes, I do have a food scale. I bought organic chicken wings which are smaller than normal sized ones that I have seen. With the skin cut off they weigh exactly 2.55 ounces, its just .5 over which isnt bad... with eating the chicken wings I notice she just gulps the last piece of the bone down, not a huge piece but she doesnt bother chewing it, is that bad? Is the skin just for fat intake?
Her butt looks fine, its not red or swollen, and I know her anal glands can express themselves only because sometimes while shes beside me on the couch it will happen. I've just been worried because shes scooting more than usual, she will actually sit in place and spin on her butt too, which she hasnt done in the past, it looks really funny though lol.


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

isn't pug spinning and the head tilt unique to pugs? 

how is her poo since her last meal.....

dogs don't 'chew' in the sense that we chew.....they will inhale if they can. if they can't, it comes back up to be dealt with again.

if the bone is too small to crunch, it will go down whole.

watch the poo. 

if the poo is still crumbly, maybe leave the skin on....


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## raehyg (Aug 21, 2011)

I am curious. Can you feed them a kibble and supplement with the raw diet? Like in the Am give kibble and PM raw? I was just told to make sure they are eating a grain fee kibble which I haven't switched to yet. I am just beginning to research the raw diet but many have told me it is so much better. Also ca you place cats on this diet? I am going to give the dogs their first raw marrow bone now. Usually I simmer it for a little while but the vet said when I took the shephard to give it to them raw....its better for their teeth and safer. I have 1 Cane Corso 2 1/2 yrs, 1 German Shephard almost 11 yrs. old, 1 overweight cat(8/9 yrs.)the vet said he needs to be on a grain free diet and he will dop the weight(inside cat), and a kitten 3 1/2 mos. thank you in advance.
Rachel


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## 3Musketeers (Nov 4, 2010)

raehyg said:


> I am curious. Can you feed them a kibble and supplement with the raw diet? Like in the Am give kibble and PM raw? I was just told to make sure they are eating a grain fee kibble which I haven't switched to yet. I am just beginning to research the raw diet but many have told me it is so much better. Also ca you place cats on this diet? I am going to give the dogs their first raw marrow bone now. Usually I simmer it for a little while but the vet said when I took the shephard to give it to them raw....its better for their teeth and safer. I have 1 Cane Corso 2 1/2 yrs, 1 German Shephard almost 11 yrs. old, 1 overweight cat(8/9 yrs.)the vet said he needs to be on a grain free diet and he will dop the weight(inside cat), and a kitten 3 1/2 mos. thank you in advance.
> Rachel


Be careful with marrow bones though, they can be very dense and prone to chipping teeth. http://dogfoodchat.com/forum/general-dog-discussion/4157-why-ill-never-give-dog-marrow-bone.html


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## 3Musketeers (Nov 4, 2010)

Kat said:


> Wow, does their poop change that quickly when they are switched to raw? Second poop since starting raw from yesterday, and her poop is very small, dry, and crumbly. A few ''pebbles'' were a darker brown but then went more yellowish, which im guessing is from feeding just chicken?


See it wasn't just hype ;P, lol.

But yes, be happy your dog is taking to it very well.


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## Kat (Jul 12, 2011)

When she pooped last night it was still good, she just pooped out literally one pebble lol. She has not pooped yet today. She did not throw up since that first time so I guess she is breaking down the bone enough. So far I think she is doing really well on the raw, and she goes crazy for it. Im going to start feeding her in her crate though, because she likes to walk around and eat in random places lol. Its cute though cause she wags her tail while crunching down on the bones  I will give her dinner with some skin on the meat and see how she does. But so far, everything seems to be good


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

Kat said:


> When she pooped last night it was still good, she just pooped out literally one pebble lol. She has not pooped yet today. She did not throw up since that first time so I guess she is breaking down the bone enough. So far I think she is doing really well on the raw, and she goes crazy for it. Im going to start feeding her in her crate though, because she likes to walk around and eat in random places lol. Its cute though cause she wags her tail while crunching down on the bones  I will give her dinner with some skin on the meat and see how she does. But so far, everything seems to be good


yay.....she's doing great.....

get used to smaller poops.....

a lot of people feed in crates.....for that very reason or they have multiple dogs. i guess i was really lucky that i taught mine to eat on a towel in the kitchen....

i think leaving the skin on is a good idea now.....because it does sound as if she is doing well....like leave the skin on one wing and then in a few days, leave the skin on all three wings.....

and then we'll move on to the next step. but i don't think you're going to have any problems because she is well on her way....yay.


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## Kat (Jul 12, 2011)

Yay im so excited! I can't believe I didnt try raw sooner!!! I was actually putting a large pee pad on the ground, and she would eat over it for a few bites and then slowly start walking away. and then when I would try to call her over she thought I was trying to take her food away because she would keep walking away. Crate will be easier with less mess thats for sure lol


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

Kat said:


> Yay im so excited! I can't believe I didnt try raw sooner!!! I was actually putting a large pee pad on the ground, and she would eat over it for a few bites and then slowly start walking away. and then when I would try to call her over she thought I was trying to take her food away because she would keep walking away. Crate will be easier with less mess thats for sure lol


and another raw feeder to add to the growing club!!!

Welcome.


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## Kat (Jul 12, 2011)

She finally pooped, its 7pm here and she hasnt pooped all day. Very small, dry and crumbly. Only one sliver of bone that wasnt digested, otherwise it all looks good.


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

do you know what drummettes look like? if so, they are the fleshy part of the wing, i believe and they look like little drumsticks...

it sounds as if she is doing great but could probably benefit from the skin now and a little more meat....not much more, but a little more so her stools are not crumbly....

the undigested sliver of bone is okay. that takes time for dogs to fully adjust...it took mine about three months before i didn't see any bone shards.

the idea is to get a balance of bone and meat so the stools are nice and small but not crumbling like sand. make sense?


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## Kat (Jul 12, 2011)

So would it be best to feed just one wing with skin and then add more meat without bone at this point? I dont know what a drummette is, im guessing i can just google an image lol. I just fed her her dinner, and she was a bit iffy about the wing that had the skin on it, she saved it for last lol. But once she bit into it she was fine. I noticed she slowed down too, she crunched the bone more thoroughly than with her breakfast. Yeah, her poops are fairly crumbly, so what your saying makes sense.


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

Kat said:


> So would it be best to feed just one wing with skin and then add more meat without bone at this point? I dont know what a drummette is, im guessing i can just google an image lol. I just fed her her dinner, and she was a bit iffy about the wing that had the skin on it, she saved it for last lol. But once she bit into it she was fine. I noticed she slowed down too, she crunched the bone more thoroughly than with her breakfast. Yeah, her poops are fairly crumbly, so what your saying makes sense.


the drummette is the drumstick looking part of the wing. when i see wings, i see them in three parts...there is the wing tip, that middle section they make hot wings out of and the a little drumstick....that has more meat on it than the other two parts.

since she is getting crumbly, she probably would benefit from the skin being added back little by little and maybe either a little boneless or the drummette part of the wing...

at my stores, they sell the drummettes separately and i fed my pug those after backs and before boneless chicken...and before drumsticks....

but he's only 18-19 lbs...so in the beginning, he only got slightly under 3 ounces per meal....and a drumstick was way too much.

now i can feed him a drumstick when he needs bone, but i'll feed him less for dinner so he doesn't get fat 

View attachment 3775


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## 3Musketeers (Nov 4, 2010)

Ah, I'd hold the drummette though, those things are pretty tiny, pretty easy to gulp in one go (my brats would), and pugs have wide mouths lol.
Not that it would hurt her or anything. 
I usually give the turkey drummetes, but those are as big as a chicken drumstick, and you want to start small for now.


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

3Musketeers said:


> Ah, I'd hold the drummette though, those things are pretty tiny, pretty easy to gulp in one go (my brats would), and pugs have wide mouths lol.
> Not that it would hurt her or anything.
> I usually give the turkey drummetes, but those are as big as a chicken drumstick, and you want to start small for now.


it's hard, in the beginning, especially with pugs and their wide mouths.....but that's what i did with drummettes....until i could actually move to chicken frames which is what we ended up feeding our dogs for bone....


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## Kat (Jul 12, 2011)

At 6:30am Ruby woke me up cause she was scratching around in her crate and I noticed she pooped. So I picked it up but she wouldnt lay down and I noticed she threw up on her bed. It was watery and yellow, and there was a tiny piece of bone in it and a drop of blood. I dont know if the blood was from her or the chicken, but she seems ok today. She isnt acting weird or throwing up anymore. Iv seen bile before, but its usually a frothy yellow. Any idea why she would throw up a watery yellow liquid? Im trying not to worry lol.

Also, She pooped twice in a row at 6:30am, and then she pooped at 6:30pm and 7:30pm. They are small poops, but it seems like a lot of pooing. Is it the "same poop" from the same meal but it just gets longer for the other half to make it out? This morning for her breakfast I gave her one chicken wing with skin and bone, and then for the other ones i took the bone out and the skin off, but her poop is still very dry and crumbly. Will it take a few days for the excessive bone to leave her system?


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

i think she needs a little meat.....it does seem like a lot of pooing...although in the beginning, my dogs poo'd a lot too...

the frothy yellow puke is what we call hunger pukes...which means she was hungry. the bone shard is normal and so is the drop of blood.

i think we need to add more boneless into her rotation.....

i would add the skin back in....to all of her meals and see how she does.....and then let's see....okay?


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## Kat (Jul 12, 2011)

I meant her puke wasnt frothy like I normally saw bile in the past. It was watery and yellow, but not frothy. What if I did bone in for breakfast only, and did boneless for dinner with just meat and skin?


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

Kat said:


> I meant her puke wasnt frothy like I normally saw bile in the past. It was watery and yellow, but not frothy. What if I did bone in for breakfast only, and did boneless for dinner with just meat and skin?


sorry....but yellow is bile...be it frothy or not.....it's usually a hunger puke

what if you do bone for breakfast and lunch and do boneless for dinner? wanna try that?


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## Kat (Jul 12, 2011)

Ahh I wish I could do lunch for her, but Im gone at work from 9-6. right now, my sister is home in the day time, but that ends in september cause she's going back to school. If i fed 3oz. for breakfast and dinner could that help?


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## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

My dog puked that non-frothy yellow stuff every morning for a couple of weeks after we started feeding raw.


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## Kat (Jul 12, 2011)

Yeah, she did it again at 6:30am. She didnt do that on saturday or sunday morning though, just yesterday and today. My mom is working day shifts right now, she wakes up at 5:30am and leaves at 6:30am, could it be because my mom is waking Ruby up, which makes her throw up because she realizes she is hungry? Im running out of dog beds to switch out every morning lol. Makes me feel better to know that what's happening can be expected from switching to raw though, thanks xellil


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## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

Kat said:


> Yeah, she did it again at 6:30am. She didnt do that on saturday or sunday morning though, just yesterday and today. My mom is working day shifts right now, she wakes up at 5:30am and leaves at 6:30am, could it be because my mom is waking Ruby up, which makes her throw up because she realizes she is hungry? Im running out of dog beds to switch out every morning lol. Makes me feel better to know that what's happening can be expected from switching to raw though, thanks xellil


The good thing is .. this too shall pass. I think people have also suggested to just not feed them very much in the 
AM so they don't expect it.

I was starting to wonder if I would wake up every morning to a puddle of puke on my living room rug. Funny, one dog did it but the other never did - the other dog pukes up food right AFTER she eats it, and then eats it again. Can't win for losing.


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

in the beginning, my pug would puke in the am.....

sounds like yours is hungry or is used to eating at a certain time.

is it just puke or is it also stool...

if the stool is good, then yes, go up to 3 oz in the am and 3 oz in the pm

go bony in the am and boneless in the pm and let's see how she does.....that sound okay to you?


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## Kat (Jul 12, 2011)

Im pretty good at keeping to a feeding schedule, she usually eats breakfast between 7:45am-8am, on my day off I sleep in till 9am so she usually gets fed by 9:15am. Then her dinner is between 8:30pm and 9pm. She didnt poop at 6:30am like she did yesterday, she just made a small poop around 10am. Yeah, that sounds good, Ill do 3 oz. boneless for her dinner tonight.


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

we keep a feeding schedule too, because my pug will puke if not fed.....i had wanted to go to one feeding a day, because he too gets fed this minscule amount...

but then once he got really really used to eating raw, i read on here and then figured out that each meal didn't have to be 2.55 ounces on the nose...that he could get 2 ounces of boneless at night and four ounces of bony in the a.m. when i am feeding bone.

hard to find drumsticks for under 4 ounces, right? or pork ribs....as you will find out down the road....

i don't know about other pugs, but mine gains weight very quickly and he's not lean like other pugs i've seen. he's stocky with a bully chest.....almost like an english bull dog in miniature....except for his girly waist.....

but if she does well on boneless tonight....then feed all bony tomorrow and then bony in the a.m. and boneless that night....if her stools are good, you can probably start feeding bony in the a.m. and boneless at night until you start the next protein.

sounds like she is doing so very well...and you are too.


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## Kat (Jul 12, 2011)

I just weighed her and she actually lost half a pound, so Im going to increase her food to 3 oz. and see if she starts gaining. Went to the grocery store today and bought chicken legs, going to cut those up and use that for her boneless dinners instead of spending time deboning the wings.


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

Kat said:


> I just weighed her and she actually lost half a pound, so Im going to increase her food to 3 oz. and see if she starts gaining. Went to the grocery store today and bought chicken legs, going to cut those up and use that for her boneless dinners instead of spending time deboning the wings.


as long as you give her enough bone to keep her stools solid...she should almost be ready for her next protein....since she is doing so well...

yeah, deboning a wing...i tried that. once. 

...i suggest turkey necks if you can find them.....


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## Kat (Jul 12, 2011)

This morning she did not have any bile  I think the 3oz. just meat at night has helped with that. She gets 3 oz. bone in in the morning and 3oz. bone out in the evening. Its 6:30pm, and she hasnt pooped yet, still waiting on that. I have not seen any turkey necks at my grocery store, but I can ask around. Would turkey wings be ok?


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## Northwoods10 (Nov 22, 2010)

Turkey wings would probably be wayyy too big without cutting them down. Turkey necks are big too, but I'd assume they would be easier to cut down to appropriate sizes if need be. 

Call your local butcher to see if they can get you necks. I've only ever seen turkey necks for sale in one store around here and it sells all sort of "exotic or weird" cuts so I wasn't surprised to see it there. I would be surprised to see it at our regular grocery store.


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## Kat (Jul 12, 2011)

I would cut down the wings if I couldnt find turkey necks. Cause the only problem is I dont have a car, and the only butcher in my city is all the way on the other side lol. So taking a bus wouldnt work since the meat would be without a fridge for an hour or a bit more.


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

you could feed turkey wings if you cut them down.....and if the meat is not in the fridge for an hour it's okay. just put them in the freezer for 24 hours if you're concerned....that's what we do with all of the meat we give to our dogs....i don't know why, because it's not really necessary.....

but we freeze everything first....that's just us, tho. 

if you can find turkey breasts, that would also work, because as you work turkey in, you'd have the breast for bone and the breast meat for the boneless part. just be careful about enhancing. so many of them are just way too enhanced with sodium. look at the nutrition label.

what about a grocery store, what do they sell in terms of turkey?

good that you added in the extra ounce....no more pukes....yay.


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## Kat (Jul 12, 2011)

She pooped at 3pm today and it was crumbly and hard, but when she pooped around 7pm it was squishy, it still has shape and some of it was firmer.. it wasnt diarrhea or anything, but its the softest Iv seen it. Should I add bone to her dinner until it gets back to normal? Or is this her bodies way of adjusting to getting bone only once a day now? Also, I have been feeding her in her crate, and I put a large pee pad down just so meat doesnt get everywhere. Is it ok to keep using the same one, or should I change it? Its been a week and Im still using the same one, its kind of bloody, so I dont know if I should switch it out because of bacteria. In terms of turkey at my grocery store, they sell turkey breast, wings, drumsticks, and thighs. The two companies are President's Choice or Maple Leaf. I wish the organic company that I buy her chicken from had their turkey available, but my grocery store doesnt sell it... hmmm I wonder if they could order in the turkey from the organic company for me...


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

so you've upped her intake to six ounces per day....and you're adding skin and fat back in, yes?

are you feeding boneless?

what i learned is this.

as long as you're not getting cowpies and the poo is easily picked up, then you're good to go. when it becomes so soft as to be formless and shapeless, then you add more bone.

we've been feeding raw now for 2 years. i get to look at my dogs' poo because we walk them and we have a small back yard that we clean up once a week, so we pretty much know the range of their poo.

the ideal is not a crumbly poo. the ideal is not to have cannon butt or cow pies... so a little soft is fine....as long as it still has form.

the store where you buy your stuff.....is the turkey breast on the frame? because frame is good. you eat the breast and cut the frame off to start turkey.....it doesn't have to be necks.....and you can always break down a turkey thigh....


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## Kat (Jul 12, 2011)

Her poops are back to normal, I think maybe the chicken wing I gave her for breakfast was starting to go bad, cause when I opened it for her dinner it stunk and i had to throw it away. I leave the skin and fat on, and she gets bone-in in the mornings, and bone-out for dinner. Im thinking of doing bone-in every other day now because her poops are still dry and crumbly, and she seems to be doing very well. Its been a week today and she's doing well I think. Yes, the breast of the turkey does have the frame... I probably wont be switching to turkey until next week because I am going to call my grocery store and see if they can order in the organic turkey for me so I dont have to feed Maple Leaf or Presidents choice. They carry the whole organic line, even their eggs, but not the turkey, argh!


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

that's where you are now...the trial and error part...this is when you learn your dog..now that she is doing so well....

there's that balance you'll achieve.....i think you're doing fine...

the chicken that was going bad wouldn't cause what you're talking about...she's just adjusting to raw.

personally, if i can't stand the smell of something, i don't feed it and i especially didn't feed it when they were transitioning...there are many more than me...i am the exception that would feed a protein that was 'off'....because as your dog adapts, so does the acidity in their stomachs.....


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## Kat (Jul 12, 2011)

Bone-in every other day is working out fine for Ruby. Its been 10 days since Ruby was started on raw, and I can already notice the changes, her fur is even softer than before, and she has even more energy. I took her for a walk through trails for about two hours yesterday and she was still running around when we got home. Going to add in turkey this weekend and see how it goes...


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## BoxerPaws (Jul 19, 2011)

Kat said:


> Bone-in every other day is working out fine for Ruby. Its been 10 days since Ruby was started on raw, and I can already notice the changes, her fur is even softer than before, and she has even more energy. I took her for a walk through trails for about two hours yesterday and she was still running around when we got home. Going to add in turkey this weekend and see how it goes...


Awesome to hear!

I think we may be trying turkey in Zoey's rotation again, too. She's been fantastic for the last week straight, and seems to be doing fine with the skin/fat left on the chicken backs, along with a boneless breast for lunch yesterday. She's also up to about 5 oz regularly for each meal.


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

BoxerPaws said:


> Awesome to hear!
> 
> I think we may be trying turkey in Zoey's rotation again, too. She's been fantastic for the last week straight, and seems to be doing fine with the skin/fat left on the chicken backs, along with a boneless breast for lunch yesterday. She's also up to about 5 oz regularly for each meal.


sounds like a plan.....what part will you use?


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## BoxerPaws (Jul 19, 2011)

magicre said:


> sounds like a plan.....what part will you use?


We've still got a couple of wings from our first turkey go-round. Since they're so large, I'll split them like I did before and pull the skin off. I've also considered just cutting all the meat off the wings and feeding little bits of it with chicken backs to intro more slowly. She seemed to take it fine the first time we introduced it (wing alone with a chicken meal before and after), but then my overzealous upping of portions made me back down to just the chicken. So perhaps just a turkey wing meal will be fine.


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## Kat (Jul 12, 2011)

So today I noticed that there is a small patch on Rubys belly thats losing hair.. what can that be from? She is now eating everything with the skin and fat left on so I dont get why its happening


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

when i started feeding raw, the same thing happened....keep in mind, it takes about a year for dogs to fully transition to a new way of eating.

in my case, it was a lack of dietary fat, because our transition was so rough.

once i started adding it back in....which was months later.....::::bangs head::::: and i did it very slowly....their fur started coming back in. i have a thread somewhere in here, called Malia and Bubba's hair seems to be thinning.....

if i were starting raw again, i'd make sure, first, they could eat the wings and backs and then boneless and then i would start to add in the skin and fat if i had to take it off for them.


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## Kat (Jul 12, 2011)

Yeah, I actually did read that thread of yours when I first started raw because the title caught my eye. I feed all the skin and fat though, so I dont get it. Its a circular patch, at the base of her rib cage where it meets right in the middle. Maybe its from friction... but Iv never seen it before. I dont trim any fat or skin, and it doesnt upset her stomach. Can I add more fat from another animal, like pork fat? Or would that upset her stomach?


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## Liz (Sep 27, 2010)

Mine have always gotten all the fat and such left on their food because they have a lazy mommy. Even with that when they shed (they are collies) they dumped every shred of coat and looked down right embarrassing. I hardly let them intot he yard at all - even my smoothies had see through coats - they were nekkid. All of mine went through it at different times. My younger girl just dumped her coat a year into raw. The coat they get back in is gorgeous in color and texure. Remember we have fed them a lot of junk and vaccianted, flea medicated, etc and all this gets filtered through their system much more efficiently on raw. Detoxing is different. My pups who went directly to raw from nursing have not had this happen.


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## cprcheetah (Jul 14, 2010)

The hair loss is probably NOT related to the diet, if it's circular it could be something like ringworm. I would recommend a veterinary check.


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## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

cprcheetah said:


> The hair loss is probably NOT related to the diet, if it's circular it could be something like ringworm. I would recommend a veterinary check.


I think so too, something with a defined round edge doesn't sound like patchy hair loss. 

My Doberman started out bald, and I'm still waiting for the hair to come in!! My dachshund was bald on her ears and the backs of her legs and her stomach - she's gotten hair back on all but parts of her ears. 

I feed all the fat, too.

In fact I just bought a bunch of beef heart and it seems extremely fatty - I hadnt bought any before. I don't know if that's normal. If i cut the fat off, it would be a good 40% of the heart. So I'm just trying to portion it out.


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

just remember, you're in transition......

it could be ringworm. that's what we thought. but ringworm is a very specific look....the round circular loss of hair, usually with a reddish ring.

as you get into the more rich, fattier foods, you'll see the hair come back.....it takes time. if you add in too much fat too soon, all you'll get is a dog with a bald spot and loose stools


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## Kat (Jul 12, 2011)

Well, Ruby is on revolution from the vet, and she was dewormed in June (not sure if that makes a difference). Its not a perfect circle, and i didnt notice this last time but it patches up a bit too, just the longer hair covered the area unless I move it. Iv seen ring worm pictures, and I know for sure its not ringworm. I think maybe that area lost hair first is because she does sometimes skid across the carpet with her belly when shes stretching out or if one of the cats lays down close to her she will sneakily slide towards them haha.

Giving Ruby her first turkey meal today. My grocery store ran out of turkey wings so I got a turkey thigh and cut some of the bone off cause the bones are huge. Took her a while to get into it, but she finally crunched down into the bone. I left some of the skin on, but not all. She had to lay down close to the end of the meal to finish off the bone, guess she got too tired of standing haha


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

can you post a pic of it. 

your description sounds like what my dogs went through. i also thought it might be ringworm, but it didn't have any of the tell tale anythings except some of the bald spots were round...

their fur went from silky to dryish....they still looked better than they did on kibble, don't get me wrong.....

we thought at first, it was because of the brand of salmon oil, so we stopped that....

and it didn't help and then we realised we weren't giving them enough dietary fat...when we added richer foods to their diet, it took about six months or maybe longer......i don't remember, but suddenly, bubba's hair was thick again....

you're only feeding chicken and turkey....when you get to pork and beef and fish and liver and kidney and other offals, i think your problem will go away.....

congrats on the first turkey meal --- one more protein to her diet...you're doing great....when you can, if her stools are fine, add back the skin....


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## Kat (Jul 12, 2011)

Her poops are fine again, wasnt diarrhea, just softer, but still well formed. Going to add in pork tomorrow morning! I will do bone-in chicken tonight for dinner, then pork for breakfast tomorrow, and bone-in turkey for dinner tomorrow just to keep her poops under control... how does that rotation sound? I cant believe its almost been a month since starting ruby on raw! Well, in 6 days it will be one month lol.

I will try and get a picture of the hairless patch on her belly posted soon.


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