# Does this breeder look great to you??



## Paws&Tails (Sep 3, 2010)

I've been looking around for responsible Schnoodle breeders. My whole family wants to get a puppy in the next few years or so, for a companion for Spike. It won't be for a while, as Spike is still not quite done with his training and we want to wait until we move to a bigger house with a bigger yard.

So, with that said, this is the only one in my state that I have found that impresses me. What do you think?


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## Savage Destiny (Mar 16, 2011)

Nope. All I have to do is look at the first page and see they're breeding mixed breeds to say, no way.


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## BrownieM (Aug 30, 2010)

You won't find a responsible schnoodle breeder.


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## luvMyBRT (Mar 8, 2010)

I looked through the website and while the dogs are cute, I was not too impressed. There were several things that I saw that seemed a bit strange and would be big red flags. 

They are charing $850 dollars for a mixed breed dog for starters.....no way.

What about them do you like? Have you looked in any other states? What about a rescue?


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## CavePaws (Jan 25, 2011)

LOL. But it is a CKC registered mixed breed dog, come on! Isn't the CKC worth at least $800? ;p
If they are breeding "schnoodles", why aren't they breeding "schnoodles" together? I don't get it...Why don't they stop breeding schnauzers and poodles to each other and start breeding only "purebred schnoodles" to each other?

edit: And "adoption fee"?! Let's be reasonable now, call it a "selling price" or something. You aren't adopting a dog, you're buying it, there isn't any rescue involved here.


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## Paws&Tails (Sep 3, 2010)

luvMyBRT said:


> I looked through the website and while the dogs are cute, I was not too impressed. There were several things that I saw that seemed a bit strange and would be big red flags.
> 
> They are charing $850 dollars for a mixed breed dog for starters.....no way.
> 
> What about them do you like? Have you looked in any other states? What about a rescue?


I like the info they provide on their website. What seemed strange?? I'm mainly trying to figure out what breed would be best. We don't want a super hyper dog, but an active one that can keep up with Spike. One with maybe not so high of a prey drive as JRT's.

Rescue is an open option, but we do want a relatively young puppy.

Any breed recs?


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## rannmiller (Jun 27, 2008)

Well their breeding practices themselves don't sound bad and they do feed a good food. The main thing that concerns me is the huge number of dogs they have. 9 bitches is just a whole lot of dogs being bred every single year, maybe even twice a year. I know a certain breeder who also has the same practices. Although at least your breeder in question lets the dogs have a rest between heat cycles and lets the dogs live inside all the time, unlike the other breeder I'm thinking of. So there's that.

Edit to add: why not look into getting a schnauzer or a poodle? You are much more likely to find good breeders of those two breeds and both generally have wonderful personalities!


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## CorgiPaws (Mar 31, 2009)

I short, no. 

When breeding mixed breed dogs, you simply can NOT predict the outcome in the slightest. Not in temperament, not in coat, not in size, nothing. Some may much like a purebred Poodle, some may be much like a purebred schnauzer, and they can have any variation in between the two extremes. One thing that really bothers me about breeders are false claims. 


> Schnoodles are intelligent and easily trained. They are very good with children. Most Schnoodles have a soft and fluffy coat, which is non-shedding, and tolerated by most people with allergies.


Claims like this can not be made, because there is no standard to follow, no consistency, no regulation, nothing. Furthermore, Mini Schnauzers are not known to be "very good with children" so to make that claim on a mix, is quite silly. 

They are also incredibly high volume. This is a HUGE red flag to me. They have FOUR litters coming up in May & June. They had two in March, and they have two litters on the ground now with available puppies. They state on their website that they nly breed their dogs once a year. That can sound all fine and dandy, but when they have nine females, and breed all nine of them once a year, that is A LOT of puppies. In fact, that's far more puppies than any one breeder can screen homes for, and keep up with. It greatly sounds like a mill-like situation for those poor dogs. 
They also charge a very high price for mixed breed dogs. $700-$850 is steep. A rescue or shelter is only about $45 for them, and rescues are full of schnoodlepoodledoodles. I also think that charging a higher price for "rare" (a color can not be rare on a mixed breed.) colors and that's another red flag. Now, take into account they are having roughly 9 litters a year, and lets say the average is about 5 pups...that's $31,500 to $38,250 per year they are raking in on puppy sales. I can only guess where their (or any other high volume breeder's!) motives are. Holy cow. Their shipping fee is also a total scam. $425... are you kidding? I've NEVER seen one over $300, and that's for much larger dogs than what a puppy doodlepoopeydo is. Tack on the fact that they want you to add 3.5% for paypal (the paypal fee is an even 3%) the scams just add right on up. 

Another red flag is the link to make a payment via paypal right there on their website. I know plenty of good breeders that accept breeders, but when you can simply place a deposit on a puppy with the click of a button, no questions asked, sight unseen... run for the hills, and run fast. 

I don't see ANY health testing listed on any of their breeding stock whatsoever, nor do I see it mentioned on any of their pages. Generally if a breeder is doing testing, they're gonna show it!


I see far too many red flags. I could not in good conscious buy puppy from a breeder like this, at all. I honestly don't think you will find an "ethical" breeder of mixed breed dogs to be honest. If they exist, I've never seen one.


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## CorgiPaws (Mar 31, 2009)

Paws&Tails said:


> We don't want a super hyper dog,


Oooo, then a poodle of any kind, and a schnauzer would not be good matches, let alone a mix of the two!

What about a Corgi, either Pembroke or Cardigan?


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## Paws&Tails (Sep 3, 2010)

PuppyPaws said:


> I short, no.
> 
> When breeding mixed breed dogs, you simply can NOT predict the outcome in the slightest. Not in temperament, not in coat, not in size, nothing. Some may much like a purebred Poodle, some may be much like a purebred schnauzer, and they can have any variation in between the two extremes. One thing that really bothers me about breeders are false claims.
> 
> ...



Could you educate me on finding responsbile breeders? I've never done it before. All animals, current and past have been from shelters.


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## Paws&Tails (Sep 3, 2010)

PuppyPaws said:


> Oooo, then a poodle of any kind, and a schnauzer would not be good matches, let alone a mix of the two!
> 
> What about a Corgi, either Pembroke or Cardigan?


Corgi...hmmmm....didn't think of that. It could work.


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## BrownieM (Aug 30, 2010)

CavePaws said:


> edit: And "adoption fee"?! Let's be reasonable now, call it a "selling price" or something. You aren't adopting a dog, you're buying it, there isn't any rescue involved here.


One of my BIGGEST pet peeves!


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## CavePaws (Jan 25, 2011)

I just don't get why they insist on producing "schnoodles" but don't work to "purify" the lines or create a standard for them. The only way they could do that would be to breed Schnoodles to each other for quite a few generations.

I don't have too much of a problem with these designer breeds...Just a lot of the breeders and their motives. You must remember that purebred dogs come from a mix of certain breeds, they didn't just appear...And we have many purebred dogs who have absolutely terrible health standards and terrible breeders...I don't think it's the fact that they are creating a "mixed breed" per say...Just the way they are doing it is wrong.


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## BrownieM (Aug 30, 2010)

Paws&Tails said:


> Could you educate me on finding responsbile breeders? I've never done it before. All animals, current and past have been from shelters.


First, you won't find a responsible breeder who breeds "designer" dogs. It's as simple as that. They all do it for the money.


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## BrownieM (Aug 30, 2010)

PuppyPaws said:


> Oooo, then a poodle of any kind, and a schnauzer would not be good matches, let alone a mix of the two!
> 
> What about a Corgi, either Pembroke or Cardigan?


Hmmmm?? I've never had a hyper poodle. Ever. Athletic, yes. But hyper? Not in the slightest.


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## CorgiPaws (Mar 31, 2009)

Paws&Tails said:


> Could you educate me on finding responsbile breeders? I've never done it before. All animals, current and past have been from shelters.


Absolutely!!!
In fact, if you're interested in Corgis, I have a couple contacts within Pemmies. 
You want to look for a breeder that is doing all health testing that is applicable to that breed, and not breeding their stock without it. For me, this is the absolute biggest thing. 
Showing in conformation is unimportant to me, not a deal maker nor breaker, but everyone has their own opinions on that. I think that showing certain breeds holds more merit than others. Going to dog shows and meeting some of the breeders of your desired breed is an EXCELLENT starting place, too. That way you get to talk with them and ask questions, see their dogs, etc. You can decide for yourself if showing is important to you, but even if it's not, that's STILL a great place to start and learn. 
You can also locate a breed-specific rescue and foster a dog to see if it might be the right fit for you before committing to the breed, too. 
I think honestly before you start looking at breeders, you need to figure out what breed you want! What is your lifestyle like? What are you looking for in a canine companion? What requirements do you have? Each breed has its own rules, quirks, etc. as for as what should be expected from breeders.


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## CavePaws (Jan 25, 2011)

BrownieM said:


> First, you won't find a responsible breeder who breeds "designer" dogs. It's as simple as that. They all do it for the money.


Which is sad, because with enough regulation of these dogs and good breeders out there who are dedicated to making it an actual breed, it could become a legitimate breed. But, these people are not going about creating a breed in a proper manner. You're so right, it's obvious where their motives lie. :/


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## CorgiPaws (Mar 31, 2009)

BrownieM said:


> Hmmmm?? I've never had a hyper poodle. Ever. Athletic, yes. But hyper? Not in the slightest.


Consider where you get your Poodles. :wink:
Working daycare the last few years, I've met VERY FEW that weren't hyper. I do not say this as a bad thing in the slightest, I am certain that yours are exactly what a poodle SHOULD be, but unfortunately higher energy, athletic breeds can get pretty wonky when stupid people slap any two of 'em together and make a litter or two or three. The handful of "good" ones I've come across have been wonderful, wonderful dogs, though. I'd say it's safe to bet this schnoodledoodledoo breeder is probably not using the best breeding stock. :smile"

The above, in MY experience and my experience only, is even MORE true with mini poodles. I have NO idea what they're "supposed" to be like, because it's not a breed I know anything about... I only know what the ones I've met are like, and they've all been nuts... and not very friendly.


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## luvMyBRT (Mar 8, 2010)

Paws&Tails said:


> What seemed strange??


Here are just a few: :smile:

1. Standard Adoption Fees:$850-$700 (these are mixed breed dogs).

2. Total Shipping Fee: $425 (IMO, a good breeder would not ship puppies but require the new owners to come and pick the puppy up in person. Plus the fee is WAAAY over priced). 

3. Deposits are NOT Refundable if you change your mind and no longer want a pup. (Not sure if good breeders have non refundable deposits?)

4. Clients must choose their puppy by 4 weeks of age. (Really? Over the internet? From pictures? I don't get it....)

5. If purchaser does not pick up the puppy by 8.5 weeks of age there will be a $15.00 boarding fee charge. (What??!)

6. Purchaser assumes all responsibility for the puppy as of the date and time that the boarding begins. Seller will not be held responsible for any illness or injury.

7. Where's the health testing results?

8. Really high volume for breeding and puppies. 

Would you like any more....? :tsk::tsk:

Sorry to say, but not a good breeder, imo. :smile:


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## CavePaws (Jan 25, 2011)

Perhaps their diet has something to do with it as well, Puppypaws? Diet can definitely make some already athletic or active dogs super hyper.


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## CorgiPaws (Mar 31, 2009)

CavePaws said:


> Perhaps their diet has something to do with it as well, Puppypaws? Diet can definitely make some already athletic or active dogs super hyper.


 Absolutely possible, nearly guaranteeable. 
I want to clarify, I'm not down talking the Standard Poodle! I know that with good genetics behind them they are highly intelligent, great dogs! I honestly know NOTHING of their conformation standards, but I know they are supposed to be excellent even-tempered animals. The few "good" ones I've met have been exactly this. The majority of the ones I've met have not, surely due to crummy breeding and perhaps not the best owners and diet. Most novelty breeds (Pits, Poodles, Danes, Chis, etc.) have far too many "bad eggs" running around due to careless breeding because people CAN scam big bucks for them. 
Minis, I really know nothing about what they're SUPPOSED to be like.... I've just only met really super high strung crazies, generally not very friendly. I can not speak for their standard or "should bes" because I haven't the slightest clue, all I know is what I see working in a professional environment with A LOT of them. Most that come to daycare have not passed the temperament screening, and this goes for four daycares in four states.


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## BrownieM (Aug 30, 2010)

PuppyPaws said:


> Absolutely possible, nearly guaranteeable.
> I want to clarify, I'm not down talking the Standard Poodle! I know that with good genetics behind them they are highly intelligent, great dogs! I honestly know NOTHING of their conformation standards, but I know they are supposed to be excellent even-tempered animals. The few "good" ones I've met have been exactly this. The majority of the ones I've met have not, surely due to crummy breeding and perhaps not the best owners and diet. Most novelty breeds (Pits, Poodles, Danes, Chis, etc.) have far too many "bad eggs" running around due to careless breeding because people CAN scam big bucks for them.
> Minis, I really know nothing about what they're SUPPOSED to be like.... I've just only met really super high strung crazies, generally not very friendly. I can not speak for their standard or "should bes" because I haven't the slightest clue, all I know is what I see working in a professional environment with A LOT of them. Most that come to daycare have not passed the temperament screening, and this goes for four daycares in four states.


No worries, I know you're not down talking them!  

All varieties of poodles (toy, mini and standard) are the same breed and are held to the exact same standards, aside from height. Their temperaments should be the same, although in reality it does seem that the little ones can be more energetic than the larger ones. I believe this may be a mix of genetics as well as owner error. Many peope treat small dogs differently than large dogs, which leads to behavioral issues. 

And, you're right, poorly breed poodles can be very high strung. I can guarantee any poodles that are being breed by an "oodle" breeder are not using good representatives of the breed.


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## luvMyBRT (Mar 8, 2010)

I love the idea of going to a few dog shows and looking at the different breeds of dogs. Talk to the breeders. Talk to the people who own the breed you like. 

I would visit a few different breeders if you can. Look at the living environment where the puppies are raised. Interact with the parents. Ask to see the health testing papers. Ask how the puppies are raised. What kind of socialization do they get from day one? Does the breeder do any obedience work? What titles (show or working) do they have on their breeding stock? How many litters do they have a year? How important is temperament? Health? Genetics? Ask what diseases/problems run in the breed. How are they *helping* to improve the breed?

:becky:


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## CorgiPaws (Mar 31, 2009)

BrownieM said:


> All varieties of poodles (toy, mini and standard) are the same breed and are held to the exact same standards, aside from height. Their temperaments should be the same, although in reality it does seem that the little ones can be more energetic than the larger ones. I believe this may be a mix of genetics as well as owner error. Many peope treat small dogs differently than large dogs, which leads to behavioral issues.


I never knew that! Very interesting!
I suppose I must call owner error on that one. I never would have guessed that they were held to the same exact standard, as the good Standards, and ever mini I have ever met seem to be polar opposites!:suspicious:


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## MollyWoppy (Mar 19, 2010)

BrownieM said:


> All varieties of poodles (toy, mini and standard) are the same breed and are held to the exact same standards, aside from height. Their temperaments should be the same, although in reality it does seem that the little ones can be more energetic than the larger ones. I believe this may be a mix of genetics as well as owner error. Many peope treat small dogs differently than large dogs, which leads to behavioral issues.


I couldn't agree more Brownie. In my experience, the majority of those with toy/teacup/mini poodles tend to treat them as lapdogs (I HATE everything that word stands for). Thats where the behavioral and hyperactive problems come in. No exercise, no discipline or structure in their lives, they are treated like a handbag, not a dog. When I was a kid a friend had a mini poodle that hung around with us and our dogs, he was just a normal, happy, dog, no different from any of the others at all.
In my view, there are many, many dogs in shelters in need of homes, all sorts of breeds, mixed and pedigrees, all ages. Personally, if I were worried about adopting a dog (with baggage), I'd check out and see if I could foster the dog I liked for a couple of weeks to see if it is a good fit with your family and take it from there.


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## Maxy24 (Mar 5, 2011)

Hi Paws&Tails, I agree with everyone else, that is not a good breeder. Unfortunately most people breeding mixes are not doing it for the right reasons (to create dogs that are awesome representatives of their breed/meet their breeding goals). The only exception might be people breeding mixes for sports or work. Plus with a mix you don't know anything about temperament or even looks for that matter. If you are okay with that (not having a good idea of the dog's potential temperament or looks) then I'd suggest getting a puppy from a shelter or rescue. You'd be getting the same quality dog but instead of supporting a bad breeder, you'd be saving a life. Some people don't have really strict requirements for what they want/need in a dog beyond a nice pet, so getting a rescue/shelter pup is a great option for them. However if you do want a much more predictable temperament, you could get an ADULT from a shelter/rescue (an adult temperament usually won't change much) or you can get a purebred puppy from a good breeder who ensures their dog has the proper temperament for the breed. 

So if you want to go the breeder route I suggest you pick a purebred dog whose temperament, size, grooming requirements, etc. meet what you are looking for. If you'd like help with that I'm sure we'd all be happy to help, just give us more information on what sort of/amount of exercise you will be giving, if you want to do any sports, what sort of grooming you can deal with (for example a poodle will need a professional groomer), if the dog needs to live with other dogs/kids/cats, and if there are any big no-no behaviors in your house (barking, digging, etc.), while any breed can show these behaviors, with some it is much more likely than with others.

Once you decide on a breed, start looking at websites and talking to other people who know your breed and can recommend breeders (maybe go to dog shows or other dog events, or check out breed specific forums).
The first two things that I always look for in a breeder is that they do something to ensure proper temperament and good health. This means health testing and titles. 
Health testing is different from regular vet visits. A vet visit will only show a problem once the dog becomes symptomatic. A dog can be going blind for a long time before it's bad enough to change his behavior, that dog could have been bred before anyone knew she was going blind, thus passing her poor eyes onto pups. So a good breeder always gets specific tests to ensure that their breeding stock is not in the early stages of any inherited diseases. What tests they get depends on the breed. Usually you can look for OFA (orthopedic foundation for animal) results, but their is also pennhip and CERF (for eyes) tests. Find out what tests your breed needs and make sure your breeder does them.

As for titles that prove temperament, this will also depend on the breed. Every breed should have a different temperament so their are different sports/work which illustrate that they have the right temperament for their breed. Sometimes this will be work, sometimes sports, and sometimes it can be a temperament test (in the dogs name there will be a TT) or therapy dog titles. I'd love to see therapy dog titles on a Shih Tzu or American Pit Bull Terrier(meant to be wonderful with all people) but wouldn't really want one on say...A Fila Brasileiro (they're not supposed to like strangers at all).

Once I check to make sure they are doing things for health and temperament I look at the harder to find things. Make sure they will take the dog back at ANY time in the dog's life if you cannot keep him, make sure they don't breed more than once or maybe twice a year, make sure puppies are raised inside with the family (unless you are looking for a dog to guard your sheep or something along those lines), not out in kennels, and stuff like that. To me feeding and training is less important, I'm raising the dog and he will be trained using methods I want to use and fed what I want to feed. 

Anyways I, and I'm sure others here, would be more than happy to help you find breeders once you decide on a breed, I actually really enjoy helping people find breeders.


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## Paws&Tails (Sep 3, 2010)

Okay, what we're looking for in a dog. We don't want a super hyper dog like a JRT or Boxer. Spike's had playdates with other super hyper dogs, and all they did was fuel on his hyperness. But we do want a dog that's fairly active and can keep up with him. 

We are a very active family and are outside a lot. Everything we do with Spike, we'd all do with the other dog. We go hiking all the time and take Spike with us. We take him with us whenever we can when we are out and about as well as on vacation. Fetch, frisbee, hide and seek etc. are all games that are played with Spike. Two walks a day totaling up to an hour, sometimes hour and a half a day, plus a sprinting session. No sports. I'm a-okay with high grooming requirements. Size limit is 60-65 pounds.

The dog needs to get along with cats (so we'd prefer one without a high prey drive), since we have 3 cats, and obviously needs to get along with other dogs. It also needs to be good with kids.

Digging is a big no-no.



PuppyPaws said:


> Absolutely!!!
> In fact, if you're interested in Corgis, I have a couple contacts within Pemmies.
> You want to look for a breeder that is doing all health testing that is applicable to that breed, and not breeding their stock without it. For me, this is the absolute biggest thing.
> Showing in conformation is unimportant to me, not a deal maker nor breaker, but everyone has their own opinions on that. I think that showing certain breeds holds more merit than others. Going to dog shows and meeting some of the breeders of your desired breed is an EXCELLENT starting place, too. That way you get to talk with them and ask questions, see their dogs, etc. You can decide for yourself if showing is important to you, but even if it's not, that's STILL a great place to start and learn.
> ...


Thank you thank you thank you!!!!

I'm not entirely sure of Corgi's. If I remember correctly, they are a herding breed, right?? My dad is very leery of herding breeds because we had such a bad experience with a golden retriever/border collie mix rescue. That dogs border collie shined through like he was mainly BC or full BC, instead of the other way around (although, I'm sure it had something to do with his past treatment). Though I did remind my dad that if it's a young dog or from a breeder, we wouldn't have that problem since we would have the influence over the dog, not the previous owner.




MollyWoppy said:


> I couldn't agree more Brownie. In my experience, the majority of those with toy/teacup/mini poodles tend to treat them as lapdogs (I HATE everything that word stands for). Thats where the behavioral and hyperactive problems come in. No exercise, no discipline or structure in their lives, they are treated like a handbag, not a dog. When I was a kid a friend had a mini poodle that hung around with us and our dogs, he was just a normal, happy, dog, no different from any of the others at all.
> In my view, there are many, many dogs in shelters in need of homes, all sorts of breeds, mixed and pedigrees, all ages. *Personally, if I were worried about adopting a dog (with baggage)*, I'd check out and see if I could foster the dog I liked for a couple of weeks to see if it is a good fit with your family and take it from there.


That's the main thing I am worried about. We've done it before and it didn't turn out well at all. Fostering is a good idea.


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## rannmiller (Jun 27, 2008)

I agree with you that herding breeds can be awful for anyone with cats (ask Milo, my corgi/heeler rescue about that one!), and can be more worrisome with smaller children because they might try to herd them. Although Milo adores any and all people and would never even dream of nipping at them but rather licking them to death. Having said that about herding breeds and cats, the only purebred corgi I've ever really had the pleasure of seeing in person with a cat is Grissom and he does great with them. But Linsey says he's a corgi-fail so maybe he's the exception and not the rule :smile: also I'm sure it helps to raise them from a puppy rather than a rescue with no prior history with cats or bad history with cats. 

I would not put schnauzers or poodles (of any size) in the same "hyper" category of a JRT. I would call them more high energy. Almost every schnauzer and poodle I've met, regardless of size has been a wonderful, sweet, loving dog and we seem to have a lot of each in my area so I see a lot of them! Maybe we just have better poodles and schnauzers in Reno :wink:


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## KittyKat (Feb 11, 2011)

...I'd suggest a whippet. They get to be around 20-30lbs, good energy level - and if they are raised with cats, they'll do just fine. Mine cleans my cats ears. Great with kids, very quiet, gentle dogs. Health and with the short hair they don't really need grooming, and although they shed, you don't notice it much. They come in basically any colour as well. They are very fast though, so you need to have good recall with them. They also love to cuddle.

Although i'm nutty about them... and everyone she meets falls in love with her and her "wiggly bum". You do have to like their sleek look too...


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## Angelwing (Feb 20, 2011)

I don't even have to look at the website to know that's not going to be a good breeder. Are you looking for a smaller dog, or a dog closer to 65lbs?


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## Esori (May 7, 2011)

arg - I posted a nice long reply and got logged out :frusty:

oh well, lets see how much I remember. 

Check out this post for a list of ethical breeding practices: http://dogfoodchat.com/forum/general-dog-discussion/8233-10-rules-ethical-breeding.html It isn't complete, but its a good starting point. 

As far as the whole "oodle" thing goes, I've decided to relent on the whole mixed puppy business provided that an individual is actually trying to develop a new breed of dog. After all, all purebred dogs were mutts at one point. However, in order to produce a new breed, you need to keep back some puppies from each breeding that have the traits that your looking for in order to improve your line's genetics. This person seems to be selling all their puppies and making claims they can't uphold. 

They make numerous claims to their pups being hypoallergenic. Ok, so the poodle they're crossing the schnauzers with are hypoallergenic, but they go on to say that some pups are born with schnauzer type coats (I honestly don't know, are schnauzer hypoallergenic?). When you breed two types of dogs together you get a mish-mash of genetics and you can't honestly say what the pups are going to look like (or act like) because you don't know how the genes are gonna get arranged. So they can't say that their pups are Hypo, or at the very least they can't claim that they all are. 

Beyond that, they don't mention any health testing. Beyond having a vague health guarentee, they don't even mention health in their introduction of their breeding dogs. The most concrete thing they have is something talking about height and weight of the breeding dogs. Come to think of it, they don't even have the parent's pedigree listed on their site. Most breeds have _some_ health problems that need to be tested for. And if you chose to be a breeder, the most responsible thing to do is to health test all your breeding animals for breed specific issued and not breed any dogs that have health problems. But this breeder, again, doesn't even mention anything. 

Some breeders of mixed breed dogs might say that since you're throwing all those new genetics together, that the risk of illness is that much lower. But that's not true if you're still breeding unhealthy dogs who can pass BOTH of their illnesses down to their puppy. So you could have a poodle with laxating patellas (slipping kneecaps) and a schnauzer with, I dunno, a genetic history of cataracts and suddenly you have a puppy with bad knees and cataracts. Health testing is a must. 

Also, like puppypaws said, this person is grossing $35K+ a year on puppy sales. And 9 bitches is a lot to breed if you're just a hobby breeder. But what have they shown you to prove they deserve that ridiculous, outrageous asking price for what is ultimately a mutt? As I've already mentioned, the parents don't seem to be health tested. They don't even seem to have been competed in anything, even though they are all AKC registered and purebred themselves. It seems to me that this breeder is producing run-of-the-mill puppies (pun intended) for outrageous prices that are indistinguishable from similar mixed-breed puppies who are sitting on death row at shelters and getting paid $35K+ for it. 

So yeah, don't use this breeder. I've seen breeder of poodle-mixes that actually health test their stock and actually work to develop a new breed responsibly and ethically. But as a general rule, if anyone tries to charge you a large amount, say more than $200 for a puppy, purebred or otherwise, make sure they're proving to you that they deserve that amount with health testing and preferably some sort of conformation/sports title. Otherwise, you can walk on over to the shelter, full of purebreds and mixed breeds of the exact same quality, and save a life for around $65. 

This 2nd writing isn't nearly as good as my original post. Darn Logout :frown:


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## Maxy24 (Mar 5, 2011)

I'm not exactly sure what sort of personality you like as far as aloofness, stranger friendliness, training ease, etc. go nor do I know your experience level, but I made a list of dogs that *might* match what you are looking for. I'm a bit unsure of what you want energy-wise too, your family sounds active but you don't want a really energetic dog, you know what you can handle better than me so I didn't toss out all "high energy" dogs, you can decide what amount of energy is too high for you when you read more about them. I don't have personal experience with many of these breeds and some of them are pretty hard to find, so that's something to consider. Anyone who has experience with these breeds feel free to chip in, this is based on quick research. This is only a starting place, I'll jot down a few of the concerns you might have with some of them, most of them are energy related since I didn't know how high was too high for you.

1. American Water Spaniel
-higher energy

2. Boykin Spaniel
-higher energy

3. Cavalier King Charles Spaniel
-Can have really serious health problems

4. American or English Cocker Spaniel
-Have a bad reputation for being submissive peers and not nice. I'd say most of this is due to poor breeding stemming from high popularity since there is no reason for them to be like that based on standard or the work they were bred for. Dogs that get popular start to have poor temperaments from being pumped out by mills and BYBs.

5. Keeshond
-aloof with strangers
-lots of hair

6. Bichon Frise
-I've heard they can be hard to housebreak

7. Papillon
-higher activity level
-vocal

8. Poodle (mini or toy)
-You'll likely have to deal with people's negative stereotypes

9. Sussex Spaniel 
-Drool

10. Welsh Springer Spaniel
-high energy

11. American Eskimo Dog
-Can be aloof with strangers
-vocal

12. Beagle
-Vocal
-Higher energy

13. Brittany
-really high energy

14. English Springer Spaniel
-really high energy

15. Field Spaniel
-higher energy

16. Corgi (either Cardigan or Pembroke)
-herders, so might have harder mouth (very nippy puppies, not gentle) and might nip at running people/animals
-not so sure how they are with cats, I've heard some say good, some say bad

17. Pomeranian
-vocal

18. Portuguese Water Dog
-higher energy

19. Nova Scotia Duck Tolling Retriever
-Some say they are good with cats, some say they're not
-make very odd screaming sound

Some of these breeds have been really, really hurt by poor breeding, Corgis, cockers and pomeranians come to mind, so it's really important to stick to really good breeders. As you can see I picked lots of spaniels. Spaniels are usually friendly with people, including kids, and with other dogs, most are fine with cats since they were not bred for killing the animals, but for flushing and retrieving. However they are energetic, some more than others though.


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## Liz (Sep 27, 2010)

*Dog Breed*

I am biased but I have smooth and rough collies and they are the best. One of my pups went to a home with rabbits, chickens, a cat and a small dog and does wonderful. They are very respectful of small animals when well bred. I also have a sheltie and she is a dream. Loves to play with the collies and a very easy keeper.


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## Paws&Tails (Sep 3, 2010)

Maxy24 said:


> I'm not exactly sure what sort of personality you like as far as aloofness, stranger friendliness, training ease, etc. go nor do I know your experience level, but I made a list of dogs that *might* match what you are looking for. I'm a bit unsure of what you want energy-wise too, your family sounds active but you don't want a really energetic dog, you know what you can handle better than me so I didn't toss out all "high energy" dogs, you can decide what amount of energy is too high for you when you read more about them. I don't have personal experience with many of these breeds and some of them are pretty hard to find, so that's something to consider. Anyone who has experience with these breeds feel free to chip in, this is based on quick research. This is only a starting place, I'll jot down a few of the concerns you might have with some of them, most of them are energy related since I didn't know how high was too high for you.
> 
> 1. American Water Spaniel
> -higher energy
> ...



The dog needs to be friendly with strangers. We have people over all the time. 

I don't mind hard to train dogs. I wouldn't say Spike is hard to train, but he is stubborn, which made it difficult. But it worked, and he's very smart.

I would say we are all fairly experienced with dogs. We've had dogs practically all of my life and I've learned a lot about dog behavior, training, socializing etc. 

I don't have a problem with a very energetic dog at all. Spike is a JRT so he is very high energy and I love that. We just don't want a another _very_ high energy dog. 

I only did a quick look up of these breeds and the ones that seem like good matches I bolded.


Edit- Oh! We'd prefer the dog to be in the 30-50 pound range.


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## BrownieM (Aug 30, 2010)

Paws&Tails said:


> The dog needs to be friendly with strangers. We have people over all the time.
> 
> I don't mind hard to train dogs. I wouldn't say Spike is hard to train, but he is stubborn, which made it difficult. But it worked, and he's very smart.
> 
> ...


I think you should get a standard poodle. Millie is 42 lbs. full grown. She lays in the house all day, watches out the window. She is calm. I take her to the mall with me (dogs are allowed at Saks and Neiman Marcus) and everyone comments on her calm disposition - they think she must be older than 15 months. I take her on hikes, and she is full of energy. I take her to the dog park, and she can out-play any lab. I throw a ball, she brings it back. She gets along with all dogs and all people. She loves children. She does tracking, agility, therapy work, obedience and is the smartest dog I have ever trained. I taught her sit in one "sitting" (no pun intended). She doesn't shed. She doesn't even smell like a dog. She is the most loyal creature I have ever met.


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## rannmiller (Jun 27, 2008)

Beagles are very high energy and hard to train, and brittany spaniels are extremely high energy, though not as hard to train, so you may want to reconsider those. The duck tolling retriever might be your best bet, but probably harder to find someone who breeds them since they aren't a very common breed, though they are adorable.


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## nortknee (May 5, 2011)

rannmiller said:


> Beagles are very high energy and hard to train, and brittany spaniels are extremely high energy, though not as hard to train, so you may want to reconsider those. The duck tolling retriever might be your best bet, but probably harder to find someone who breeds them since they aren't a very common breed, though they are adorable.


The NSDTR is comparable to a brittany, imo. They're friendly enough, but if you were comparing a group of dogs like you would a group of kids, they would the be ADD ones. Very social, can be fun, but extremely unfocused and slightly frustrating...just get a golden.


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## Paws&Tails (Sep 3, 2010)

rannmiller said:


> Beagles are very high energy and hard to train, and brittany spaniels are extremely high energy, though not as hard to train, so you may want to reconsider those. The duck tolling retriever might be your best bet, but probably harder to find someone who breeds them since they aren't a very common breed, though they are adorable.


Believe me, I've met tons of Beagles and they're energy is not as high as Spike's. I'm fine with hard to train. I've never met a Brittany before or duck tolling retriever, but both are proving hard to find.


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## Paws&Tails (Sep 3, 2010)

nortknee said:


> The NSDTR is comparable to a brittany, imo. They're friendly enough, but if you were comparing a group of dogs like you would a group of kids, they would the be ADD ones. Very social, can be fun, but extremely unfocused and slightly frustrating...just get a golden.



I'd love a Golden Retriever, and they honestly seem like the best option. Problem is we used to have a Golden/BC mix that was mostly Golden. He was was very attached to my brother. He eventually had to be put down and it was very hard on my brother. My brother doesn't want another Golden because they remind him to much of his old dog.


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