# Owners of IN Tact Males- rant/poll



## CorgiPaws (Mar 31, 2009)

Do you think that owners of in tact males are every bit as much responsible for unplanned and accidental litters?

I own 5 intact dogs. Three are females, and two are males. I honestly take JUST as much precaution with my intact males around the clock, as I do with females in heat. I get really sick of owners leaving their male dogs in tact, and then shrugging it off when they sire a litter, because the female's owners should have been more careful. While I agree, YES, if accidental litters are happening, the female's owner is a complete and utter moron as well...it REALLY peeves me out to see people make the decision to NOT neuter their males, and then NOT assume responsibility for that. 

There's a thread on another forum I was just reading, and it was along the lines of "This female wandered into my yard, and my male bred her! Look how cute this puppy is. This is not my fault, don't bash me!" 
Well, maybe if your IN TACT male was not tied up in your yard...... 

*I'm not against leaving animals in tact*, if you're responsible and not letting your males get to females, and vice versa... then you are NOT capable of keeping an in tact animal without contributing to pet overpopulation. the ignorant, irresponsible people really give responsible owners a bad rep.

This is NOT a rant against keeping dogs- male or female- in tact, or a rant against ethical, planned breeding. *This is a rant against stupid people who consciously made the decision to NOT spay/neuter, and then are irresponsible and don't take necessary precautions to prevent unplanned pregnancy*, or perhaps they're just stupid enough to leave an in tact animal outside all the time and don't CARE about unplanned pregnancy.


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## Caty M (Aug 13, 2010)

Both responsible, an intact dog should NOT be tied outside, and a female in heat definitely not! Well, NO dog should be tied outside, really. But especially not dogs to create more unwanted litters.

I'd love to be able to keep Tess intact for health (not breeding) reasons.. but she's on a spay contract.


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## CorgiPaws (Mar 31, 2009)

Considering males are fertile ALL THE TIME, and females are only fertile for a short window twice a year, it pisses me off when people don't neuter, and then don't make responsible decisions.


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## Scarlett_O' (May 19, 2011)

Oh HELL YA!!

It is BOTH the female and the male who make the babies.....so yes, both the owner's faults if it happens!!!


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## SilverBeat (Jan 16, 2011)

I voted that both need to take responsibility, but I'd just like to point out that males are fertile 100% of the time, whereas females are fertile, what, 20% of the time? I feel like that is somewhat relevant.


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## CorgiPaws (Mar 31, 2009)

PuppyPaws said:


> Considering males are fertile ALL THE TIME, and females are only fertile for a short window twice a year, it pisses me off when people don't neuter, and then don't make responsible decisions.





SilverBeat said:


> I voted that both need to take responsibility, but I'd just like to point out that males are fertile 100% of the time, whereas females are fertile, what, 20% of the time? I feel like that is somewhat relevant.


We must have been posting at the same time!

Yeah, females are fertile roughly 5-10 days MAXIMUM out of the ENTIRE year, and that's if they go into heat regularly on a every 6 month basis. It's not uncommon for females to go into heat once a year, making that more like 2-5 days out of the year. 

Soooo... males 100% of the time.
Females, roughly 1-2% of the time.


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## hmbutler (Aug 4, 2011)

It is DEFINITELY the responsibility of both dog owners... if your male is intact, extra precautions must be made to ensure he cannot roam. If your female is intact, extra precautions must be made to ensure she is never left alone in a situation where a male dog could appear. The blame cannot fall solely on one dog owner! If your decision is to keep your dog intact, you must be 100% sure you are doing everything possible to avoid an accidental pregnancy - if you can't do that, spay/neuter your dog! It's that simple really


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## Tobi (Mar 18, 2011)

My next will stay in tact until 2 years old, If Tobi was still in tact I would take the utmost precautions in keeping him contained... well i still do when i'm not around but even more


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## cprcheetah (Jul 14, 2010)

It annoys me to no end. My sister has an intact poodle as well as 2 intact girls (poodles), she has NEVER had an oopsie litter....and that's even with my dad helping her let the dogs in and out because she's living with him at the moment. I have had 2 intact males before (westie & poodle) and have had 4 intact females, never had an 'oopsie' litter. It drives me bonkers when people try to blame it on the girls owners instead of both it's a two way street, the female didn't get preggers on her own.


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## angelbears (Jun 9, 2011)

BOTH. However, it is the same with humans. While it is slowly changing, it has always been the woman who ultimately has the responsibility of birth control. I'm not saying it is fair but it is what it is. Thank God for DNA, at least for the humans. It is changing how men think! You can now prove paternity.


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## frogdog (Aug 10, 2011)

*Please visit an animal shelter especially on a kill day and see what happens result of intact dogs/cats. *All pet owner's are responsible whether they own males or females.


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## Cliffdog (Dec 30, 2010)

I think it's obvious what I voted because 100% of people voted for it, LOL! If you can't keep your dog from reproducing, you shouldn't have intact animals imo. Too many good dogs die in shelters for people to let oopsie litters keep happening.


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## wags (Jan 31, 2009)

I vote for both to be responsible! It takes two to tango so yep both!


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## chowder (Sep 7, 2008)

Well, as the mother of two boys......I didn't do it all by myself! There's gotta be a male involved somewhere, somehow, sometime.

All my dogs have always been spayed/neutered. I can't trust that one of the kids / husband wouldn't let them out by mistake or let them slip out the front door one day, etc. There's no way in h&#* I'm being responsible for another litter of 'chow mix' in this world.


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## Liz (Sep 27, 2010)

I have 6 unaltered dogs. We have never had an oops litter. If you choose not to alter your pet you should be responsible for any breedings. The problem for dogs like for people is that the female is the one actually giving birth and responsible for the life and well being of the litter, so if you own an intact female it behooves you to be hyper vigilant all the time and know exactly when she is due in season. The owner of a male should be just as vigilant but most times they are not the ones in the position of having to deal with the consequences of their negligence.


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## Cliffdog (Dec 30, 2010)

Liz said:


> I have 6 unaltered dogs. We have never had an oops litter.


 Good for you! It's nice to see people who can still handle intact animals. Lately it seems like most people can barely handle altered ones. :frusty: I agree with your entire post.


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## catahoulamom (Sep 23, 2010)

I have an intact male pit bull "type" dog (gd forbid I call him a pitty on this forum nowadays lol) and he is still intact (not by my choice). He is now two and will be neutered in a week. Yippee!

My unneutered male has never even been near a female in heat. Or an intact female for that matter, unless he met one briefly on a short trip to PetSmart or something.

NO dog that is in my care will EVER product an "oops litter".


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## naturalfeddogs (Jan 6, 2011)

Just like with us, it takes two.


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## Rodeo (Sep 11, 2011)

Both. When I had an intact female I was very careful and never had any problems. Now I have a little boy who I plan to keep intact, although he'll never sire a litter. There is so way he will even get the chance to get ahold of a female.


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## CorgiPaws (Mar 31, 2009)

I'd be interested to hear from whomever voted females only. 
Though it is probably someone with a chained up beagle who has sired an oops litter or two already.


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## Dude and Bucks Mamma (May 14, 2011)

Dude will be 8 in November and Buck is 5 1/2 months and both are intact. While Buck has yet to show any signs of being a problem, Dude has gone 8 years without siring an oopsie litter. My parents are not the kind to spend a ton of money on a dog and just never bothered to get him neutered so, starting in 8th grade, I learned how to care for an intact male. It isn't hard. I also ended up with an exceptionally great boy. His best friend for several years was an intact female husky who wanted to do nothing but mate, but Dude (who was never allowed to be alone with her) wanted nothing to do with it. I got lucky. Being older now, that would never fly in my house. It could have happened. We could have ended up with puppies, but were very lucky.

Dude is an intact male with 100% recall and he is a male I am comfortable having off leash in a moderately controlled area. when we go to our cove, he is off leash (Buck is still learning so he is tethered next to my chair) but if anyone should desire to walk by, the leash is slipped back on not only to keep him from approaching them but so that others don't feel that they need to be nervous around him because he is off leash. Should another dog be seen even from a distance, the leash goes back on. He is a true velcro dog so he isn't going to run off, but he is very social.

I feel that every intact male should be treated individually. Females have those few days where every cell in their body is screaming at them to mate, but males don't constantly feel that urge so strongly all the time. Dude never seems to feel it at all. I'm not sure he is aware that he still has his jingle bells. Would I allow him in a pen with or anywhere near an intact female? Heck no! Do I feel that I can safely control an intact male? I have been doing so for almost 8 years now 

As for my vote, I vote that both parties are to blame, however, most of the blame lies on the owner of the escapee.


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## CorgiPaws (Mar 31, 2009)

Dude and Bucks Mamma said:


> As for my vote, I vote that both parties are to blame, however, most of the blame lies on the owner of the escapee.


But which would be considered "the escapee" considering BOTH dogs would have to be in an unsupervised, uncontrolled environment for an accidental breeding to occur?
Part of responsibly owning an in tact dog is making sure at ANY time they are fertile (males being 100% of the time- females being 1-2%) there is a physical barrier between them, and other dogs while unsupervised. For an "oops" breeding, both owners of both dogs would have to fail to do so.


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## hmbutler (Aug 4, 2011)

PuppyPaws said:


> But which would be considered "the escapee" considering BOTH dogs would have to be in an unsupervised, uncontrolled environment for an accidental breeding to occur?
> Part of responsibly owning an in tact dog is making sure at ANY time they are fertile (males being 100% of the time- females being 1-2%) there is a physical barrier between them, and other dogs while unsupervised. For an "oops" breeding, both owners of both dogs would have to fail to do so.


Is it difficult for you, considering you have intact males and females in the same household? I've got next to no knowledge about the fetility/breeding side of things because I've always had my animals fixed, so I've never bothered to learn lol

Also I'm curious, for people who say their dog will never breed, what is the reasons for keeping them intact? I'm not meaning that in a judging way, I'm genuinely curious, we've just always had dogs and cats fixed as soon as they're of age.


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## Celt (Dec 27, 2010)

Sorry PuppyPaws, but I was the one to vote that owners of intact females have to carry the majority of the responsibility. I ended up with an "oops" litter because the female jumped into my backyard. Yes, males are fertile 24/7 but as long as reasonable care is taken (i.e. following leash laws, proper confinement,etc) I think that the responsibility is not as "intense" as with intact females. I have seen way to many people taking their female in heat to various "group" activities, even better not even realizing their female is in heat. It's a sad fact but, if you have an intact female, you will be the one responsible for the litter's well being. So the female's owner needs to be held to a greater responsiblity of preventing this issue. After all, females are only fertile for a short time period, and if kept properly "isolated" can not be gotten preggers, no matter how many irresponsible "male" owners there are.


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## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

Just like people - the female is the one having the babies, so the owner of that female is going to have the expense, time, and trouble raising and getting rid of a litter of puppies while the male goes on his merry way. I bet alot of times the owner of the male has no idea he's been cavorting.

When I was younger, I spayed all females but didn't neuter the males. I figured anyone who didn't want a litter better fix their females. Now of course I fix all of them. I have never wanted baby anythings.


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## Cliffdog (Dec 30, 2010)

hmbutler said:


> I'm curious, for people who say their dog will never breed, what is the reasons for keeping them intact? I'm not meaning that in a judging way, I'm genuinely curious, we've just always had dogs and cats fixed as soon as they're of age.


Long-Term Risks and Benefits of Spaying/Neutering in dogs: http://www.naiaonline.org/pdfs/longtermhealtheffectsofspayneuterindogs.pdf

For health reasons, I will no longer neuter dogs... I am on the fence about spaying, I've seen a bitch die of pyometra and it was awful, but will _definitely_ wait until after a year old from now on if I do.


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## Rodeo (Sep 11, 2011)

Cliffdog said:


> Long-Term Risks and Benefits of Spaying/Neutering in dogs: http://www.naiaonline.org/pdfs/longtermhealtheffectsofspayneuterindogs.pdf
> 
> For health reasons, I will no longer neuter dogs... I am on the fence about spaying, I've seen a bitch die of pyometra and it was awful, but will _definitely_ wait until after a year old from now on if I do.


Agree with this 100%


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## DeekenDog (Aug 29, 2011)

In most cases I would say that its both parties but there are a few here and there where I definitely think its the fault of the female's owner's. I've seen a couple of situations where owner's have had their female dog's off-leash on the trails while they were in heat. In both situations, the dog tied with an intact male. If someone is going to have their female off-leash in heat on the trails where they know other dogs are frequently than they should be solely responsible for the litter that results.


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## CorgiPaws (Mar 31, 2009)

hmbutler said:


> Is it difficult for you, considering you have intact males and females in the same household? I've got next to no knowledge about the fetility/breeding side of things because I've always had my animals fixed, so I've never bothered to learn lol


It's not difficult at all. Females are only fertile for about 6 days a year, and by keeping track of my female's heats, you can get a relatively accurate guess of when those days are. Right now, Zailey is in heat. She is NEVER left outside, not even for a second, without my eyes on her. I don't leave my dogs outside when I'm gone anyway, but when in heat, I am their shadow! She wears underwear with a liner in it unless she is out for a potty break. This is not only to prevent a bloody mess in my house, but to give an extra layer of protection from the boys. (A determined male, however.... would rip them off in no time flat if he really wanted to, so supervision is really important) As she is approaching the fertile days in her cycle, she is much more content with the extra attention from the boys, and even shoves her butt in their faces to get their attention. They have tried a handful of times to mount her, and I just call them to me and reward for recall. (Because Mousse is a stud dog, and I hope for Braxton to be, I don't "correct" them for mounting, rather I ask them to do something else incredibly simple) today was the first time that Mousse was just overly excited around her, so he spent about 30 minutes calming down in his crate. 
When a female is not in heat, the house functions just as it does for dogs that are spayed/neutered. The only difference is I have this paranoia of silent heats, so once my females are mature, they do not/will not free roam with the boys when I'm not home. I also, for the sake of the poor boys, have the boys crates upstairs, and girls downstairs, so they don't have to be crated right next to a female in heat.... that just seems unfair to them! lol. There is also ALWAYS 2 or 3 "doors" between my females in heat, and the outside world when I'm not home. 





Celt said:


> Sorry PuppyPaws, but I was the one to vote that owners of intact females have to carry the majority of the responsibility. I ended up with an "oops" litter because the female jumped into my backyard. Yes, males are fertile 24/7 but as long as reasonable care is taken (i.e. following leash laws, proper confinement,etc) I think that the responsibility is not as "intense" as with intact females. I have seen way to many people taking their female in heat to various "group" activities, even better not even realizing their female is in heat. It's a sad fact but, if you have an intact female, you will be the one responsible for the litter's well being. So the female's owner needs to be held to a greater responsiblity of preventing this issue. After all, females are only fertile for a short time period, and if kept properly "isolated" can not be gotten preggers, no matter how many irresponsible "male" owners there are.


I dunno, I guess I've always found leash laws and legal confinement requirements to be bare minimum for people with sterile animals. In my opinion, part of keeping an animal in tact is taking on the responsibility of making *every measure necessary* to ensure they will not produce an unplanned litter. This includes being left outside unattended. A male can smell a female in heat from miles away. Literally. And a determined male will hurt himself trying to get to them. If they're just left outside in the yard, I don't feel like that's taking measures at all. 



xellil said:


> When I was younger, I spayed all females but didn't neuter the males.* I figured anyone who didn't want a litter better fix their females.* Now of course I fix all of them. I have never wanted baby anythings.


This statement really irks me. I think it gives owners of in tact males a free pass to being irresponsible, because they can just put the blame on someone else by just saying "Well she should have been spayed anyway!" Keeping animals in tact and capable of reproducing is something that adds responsibility on top of the regular responsibilities of pet owners. 



DeekenDog said:


> If someone is going to have their female off-leash in heat on the trails where they know other dogs are frequently than they should be solely responsible for the litter that results.


Could the same not be said about owners of in tact males? It doesn't happen in five seconds flat, BOTH owners would have to not have complete supervision and control of their animals for an accidental mating to take place. 
I DO take my males out, off leash... but of course they'r supervised entirely, and would be even if they were neutered, beecause they are my dogs and therefore I am *SOLELY responsible* for their every move in public. If your dog bites someone, you're responsible. If your dog disturbs the peace, you're responsible. If your dog destroys someone's property, you're responsible. Why then do owners of in tact males deserve a free pass if their dogs contribute to an unplanned/ unwanted litter? Sounds like a cop out to avoid responsibility to me. 


I probably won't spay/neuter any dogs I get, even pet dogs, because I believe in the benefits of keeping them whole over the cons. I am incredibly against mandatory spay/neuter laws, and DO plan on carefully pairing and breeding my dogs. That being said, I think that laws are necessary for the protection of living things, and "oops" litters do A LOT of harm... I believe anyone whose dog roams and contributes to an unplanned litter should be required by law to sterilize their pets... because they have proven themselves incapable of responsibly owning in tact animals.


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## hmbutler (Aug 4, 2011)

PuppyPaws said:


> It's not difficult at all. Females are only fertile for about 6 days a year, and by keeping track of my female's heats, you can get a relatively accurate guess of when those days are. Right now, Zailey is in heat. She is NEVER left outside, not even for a second, without my eyes on her. I don't leave my dogs outside when I'm gone anyway, but when in heat, I am their shadow! She wears underwear with a liner in it unless she is out for a potty break. This is not only to prevent a bloody mess in my house, but to give an extra layer of protection from the boys. (A determined male, however.... would rip them off in no time flat if he really wanted to, so supervision is really important) As she is approaching the fertile days in her cycle, she is much more content with the extra attention from the boys, and even shoves her butt in their faces to get their attention. They have tried a handful of times to mount her, and I just call them to me and reward for recall. (Because Mousse is a stud dog, and I hope for Braxton to be, I don't "correct" them for mounting, rather I ask them to do something else incredibly simple) today was the first time that Mousse was just overly excited around her, so he spent about 30 minutes calming down in his crate.
> When a female is not in heat, the house functions just as it does for dogs that are spayed/neutered. The only difference is I have this paranoia of silent heats, so once my females are mature, they do not/will not free roam with the boys when I'm not home. I also, for the sake of the poor boys, have the boys crates upstairs, and girls downstairs, so they don't have to be crated right next to a female in heat.... that just seems unfair to them! lol. There is also ALWAYS 2 or 3 "doors" between my females in heat, and the outside world when I'm not home.


Very informative, thanks! Zailey in underwear, now that's something for the pictures section haha


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## CorgiPaws (Mar 31, 2009)

hmbutler said:


> Very informative, thanks! Zailey in underwear, now that's something for the pictures section haha


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## luvMyBRT (Mar 8, 2010)

Mr. Incredible??? Why not Tinkerbell or a Disney princess?? LOL......

She looks adorable!


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## SerenityFL (Sep 28, 2010)

Let us not also forget those who do it on purpose. I have met way too many people, (mostly in Miami), who just "had" to have a litter of their little "Buck" because he is the "coolest dog evah!!11!!!" They think it's "unfair" that he go through life not knowing what it would be like to "sire" a litter. Or they are men, (I'm not male bashing, I'm repeating FACTS from the people I have met along the way), who are hung up on nipping the old spawn creators. 

These are the ones I have met while walking my hoodlums or dogsitting someone elses dog and have taken that dog to the dog park and met these types of idiots...these are some of the biggest and worst contributors to the over population because they do it on purpose.


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## CorgiPaws (Mar 31, 2009)

luvMyBRT said:


> Mr. Incredible??? Why not Tinkerbell or a Disney princess?? LOL......
> 
> She looks adorable!


Lol, a few other breeders told me that boys underwear is more elastic and stays on/ fits them better.. and they were right! Boys size 6 fits her perfect, but they are snug and fit better not on backwards so I cut and sewed around a tail hole on the butt side, instead of taking advantage of the hole already on boys undies.
Wal Mart's only ones when I went were spiderman, or Disney pixar, so she got a 5 pack with Incredibles, cars, and toy story 3. Lol


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## DeekenDog (Aug 29, 2011)

PuppyPaws said:


> Could the same not be said about owners of in tact males? It doesn't happen in five seconds flat, BOTH owners would have to not have complete supervision and control of their animals for an accidental mating to take place.
> I DO take my males out, off leash... but of course they'r supervised entirely, and would be even if they were neutered, beecause they are my dogs and therefore I am *SOLELY responsible* for their every move in public. If your dog bites someone, you're responsible. If your dog disturbs the peace, you're responsible. If your dog destroys someone's property, you're responsible. Why then do owners of in tact males deserve a free pass if their dogs contribute to an unplanned/ unwanted litter? Sounds like a cop out to avoid responsibility to me.


Keeping a female leashed and away from other dogs when she's in heat is a big responsibility in my mind. If that were something I were to decide to take on, it would be with the full understanding that I would be responsible for any puppies produced by that dog. I expect anyone who decides to keep an intact female to be aware that they have these same responsibilities. Walking your bitch off-leash, when she's in heat in areas with plenty of other off-leash dogs is so completely irresponsible that I do feel that the female's owner holds more responsibility for the unplanned breeding. Should the owner of the male dog had more control or better supervision? Yes, but, honestly, I let my dog run on the same trails where these incidents occurred and I can't see him all the time (just so we're clear, he's neutered). It's woods on a mountainside, he's never far, I can always hear his bear-bell and he comes when I call him. If he were intact, I would hope that he would be able to do this without running into a bitch in heat. Is that a double-standard? Maybe, but honestly, its the way I see it.


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## CorgiPaws (Mar 31, 2009)

I agree that having a female in heat off leash around other dogs is INCREDIBLY irresponsible, and people should NOT do it. I think perhaps in that case the females owner would be the idiot, for SURE, but the males owner should still own up to some degree. 

To me having in tact dogs means they might not get all the freedoms their sterile peers have. But, I'm with you in that my males DO get to run and be dogs. Because they have their nuggets, they just don't go out of my sight if there are other dogs around that I don't know.


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## hmbutler (Aug 4, 2011)

PuppyPaws said:


>


"Aww mum, it's bad enough I have to wear these, now you're taking photos???" hahaha so cute


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## DaneMama (Jun 27, 2008)

So my friend always said that his dog was "gay" (no offense to anyone here eace: )....low and behold, guess what FINALLY happened? It downright pisses me off at the ignorance of people. My friend has had his intact male around other females in heat, and he did nothing. So he ASSUMED that he wouldn't ever do it. Well, he did....and now the world will be graced with another unwanted, ooops litter :frown:


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## hmbutler (Aug 4, 2011)

DaneMama said:


> So my friend always said that his dog was "gay"


Do dogs even have a sexual orientation?? I mean, sure, Duke has been mounted by our friend's steralised male dog, but I didn't assume that dog had a preference for mounting males :wink: lol


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## CorgiPaws (Mar 31, 2009)

hmbutler said:


> Do dogs even have a sexual orientation?? I mean, sure, Duke has been mounted by our friend's steralised male dog, but I didn't assume that dog had a preference for mounting males :wink: lol


I, personally, don't think that dogs are capable of relationships of that level, so no, I don't believe that they do. 
Dogs mate purely from reproductive instinct. They don't mate with emotions, feelings, or sexuality in mind.
In fact, aside from the initial couple of thrusts to create the tie, the rest is completely still, while the male deposits (for lack of better word!) a series of fluids in the female so.


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## Cliffdog (Dec 30, 2010)

DaneMama said:


> So my friend always said that his dog was "gay" (no offense to anyone here eace: )....low and behold, guess what FINALLY happened? It downright pisses me off at the ignorance of people. My friend has had his intact male around other females in heat, and he did nothing. So he ASSUMED that he wouldn't ever do it. Well, he did....and now the world will be graced with another unwanted, ooops litter :frown:


I'd tell the owner of the bitch to spay/abort immediately.


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## Celt (Dec 27, 2010)

It's not just males that will go "on the hunt" for a mate. While confinement laws maybe lacking, I said proper confinement which means, imo, whatever is neccessary to keep your dog confined. I was taught that a dog's heat cycle lasted 2 weeks (for the most part with some "oddballs" thrown in), where did you learn it was only 6 days? I can't see why a male that is properly confined should not be allowed to go out into their own yard, just because his owner is not able/willing to go out and watch over him. As I said my male produced an Ooops litter but the female came over a 6 foot fence. Was it my responsiblity that this happened when my male wasn't under visual observation in his own yard from which he had never tried to leave (and probably couldn't even if he did)? I don't think so. As I stated, I believe that the female's owner needs to be held at greater responsiblity to prevent litters because no matter how ignorant the male's owner is, the female can't get preggers if her owner is extra cautious.


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## hmbutler (Aug 4, 2011)

celt, in that case, you can say the owner of the female was not being careful enough (obviously, to let their in-heat female enter someone else's yard unattended!) and you may have exercised reasonable caution. However, in general, I dont think that scenario would be the case, and it would still fall on both the owners to be responsible for the accidental litter. You can say "the female can't get preggers if her owner is extra cautious" - but thats the same as saying the male can't sire a litter if his owner is extra cautious. It's a two-way street. By the sounds of it, in your case, you were extra cautious, and it was unlucky. But the litter should still be both owner's responsibility.

It's like saying if I had a teenage son who was minding his own business going about his day as usual, and was unexpectedly hit on by a hot, horny teenage girl, and they had sex and she fell pregnant - it's not my son's fault because the girl presented herself and didn't suggest he use protection, therefore I will be sure he has nothing to do with the child. (Exaggerated example, obviously, lol, but you get my drift)


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## CorgiPaws (Mar 31, 2009)

I suppose where we differ, is I do NOT feel being left in a fenced in yard unsupervised is proper responsible confinement for in tact animals. The female was probably also left in a yard. I think its flat irresponsible. 

Heats are generally longer than two week, even. But, there are only about 3 days in the cycle in which they are fertile and would accept intercourse.


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## Celt (Dec 27, 2010)

PuppyPaws--I guess I'll just agree to disagree on this, as I don't see allowing a dog to "enjoy" his yard whenever for however long he wants as being irresponsible. 

hmbutler--I agree that all owners should take precautions to prevent pregnancies, but that the owners of females need to be extra cautious simply because there are way too many male owners who don't take enough precaution. So the heaviest responisblity is on the female's owner. To use "your" child image; most mothers (at least in my family) tell their daughters, never trust the boy to keep you "safe" always make sure to protect yourself, because he might be able to "get off scots free" but YOU won't. The boys get a different but similar talking to. Of course, the first step of protection is saying No.


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## Cliffdog (Dec 30, 2010)

Yeah, I tend to agree that if the bitch gets into a yard with an intact male, that'd be the owner of the bitch's fault. Really, to let a bitch in heat outside unsupervised is just plain ignorance, and if you'd do that, you should take your dog on a one-way trip, to the vet or to the shelter, because you shouldn't own one intact or not.


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## Dude and Bucks Mamma (May 14, 2011)

PuppyPaws said:


> But which would be considered "the escapee" considering BOTH dogs would have to be in an unsupervised, uncontrolled environment for an accidental breeding to occur?
> Part of responsibly owning an in tact dog is making sure at ANY time they are fertile (males being 100% of the time- females being 1-2%) there is a physical barrier between them, and other dogs while unsupervised. For an "oops" breeding, both owners of both dogs would have to fail to do so.


Dude stays in his yard. He has been taught respect for fences, while I don't leave him outdoors unsupervised anymore (he was strictly an outdoor dog at my mom's) I shouldn't be blamed for a female in heat jumping into my yard. Even being outside with Dude, it could be a done deed by the time I managed to get them separated. Of course, with my dog being the father, I would assist with vet bills, finding the pups good homes, etc, but my dog respects fences and I cannot be faulted for someone else not teaching his/her dog respect for fences. I live in a neighborhood with 4 foot chain link fences. We are not allowed to alter our fences. My dogs do not attempt to leave due to the training they have been given. I have done my part. I have ensured that my boys stay in my yard (as well as keep an eye on them at all times when they are outside). It is no fault of mine that others don't prevent their dogs from escaping. I do live in a neighborhood where I have never once, in 9 months, seen a loose dog, however, so people MUST be doing SOMETHING right.



hmbutler said:


> Is it difficult for you, considering you have intact males and females in the same household? I've got next to no knowledge about the fetility/breeding side of things because I've always had my animals fixed, so I've never bothered to learn lol
> 
> Also I'm curious, for people who say their dog will never breed, what is the reasons for keeping them intact? I'm not meaning that in a judging way, I'm genuinely curious, we've just always had dogs and cats fixed as soon as they're of age.


My parents bought Dude for me when I was in the 8th grade. While our dogs were "well taken care of", Dude's only shots were the ones he supposedly got from his breeder. My parents don't take dogs to the vet unless they are sick. That's how they both grew up. They love their dogs, but they are still, to them, just dogs. When I got married in December, we waited until we had our apartment in January, researched some of the vets, and by April had decided that our best option was the on base vet. I got lucky with a vet who has fed raw for 14 years! Anyhow, we got him up to date on shots and made sure he was healthy, but at almost 8, I just don't feel a need to neuter him. He isn't a sex-crazed male who is hard to handle. He has no aggression issues and loves all people and dogs (except Buck because he is just a brat, hehe) and he is one of the world's mellowest dogs. I think that, healthwise, there are just as many risks on both sides (neutering and intact) so that wasn't really a factor for me. 

As for Buck, I don't know that I will ever breed him, but his show career will be starting soon. That's why he will remain intact. If he proves to be an excellent specimen, then I will consider breeding him to a handful of bitches, but he will probably never be a "true" stud dog. I don't feel the need to contribute to the shelter numbers. If he will help better his breed, great. If he will only be producing decent pups, then he will not be bred.



I am also, as you can probably see, that it is the fault of the owner of the dog who escapes the yard. I just don't see how an owner who has taught a dog respect for fences should be blamed for a litter when the owner of the escapee obviously wasn't keeping an eye on their dog. I don't worry about oops litters because the longest our boys are left unsupervised is in the middle of the night long enough to pee while we lean on the door with our eyes closed because we are still mostly asleep. Then they are brought right back in and the house goes back to bed. When they are let out to pee during the day, I stand there and watch and bring them right back in and during warm weather, we will go sit outside with them for a few hours. Dude is walked off leash, but, as I said before, he is always kept close (he is not one to wander during walks). Buck, being a hound, is not yet trustworthy off leash without food around. It is his true love. At the cove, we will work with him for a few minutes here and there, but he is kept leashed 99% of the time. That 1% off leash involves food. Anyhow, either way, all intact dog owners need to be responsible. I have owned an intact dog for 8 years and have never had an oops accident due to care and precautions.


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## rannmiller (Jun 27, 2008)

DaneMama said:


> So my friend always said that his dog was "gay" (no offense to anyone here eace: )....low and behold, guess what FINALLY happened? It downright pisses me off at the ignorance of people. My friend has had his intact male around other females in heat, and he did nothing. So he ASSUMED that he wouldn't ever do it. Well, he did....and now the world will be graced with another unwanted, ooops litter :frown:


I agree with Cliffdog on this one, I would do a spay/abort immediately with that litter. No need to bring more unwanted puppies into the world. The female doesn't even look purebred. Not that purebreds are the only ones who should breed, but an unwanted litter is just that, unwanted, and doesn't NEED to come to fruition. Also, in that case it is definitely the owner of the female's fault as well!



Celt said:


> It's not just males that will go "on the hunt" for a mate. While confinement laws maybe lacking, I said proper confinement which means, imo, whatever is neccessary to keep your dog confined. I was taught that a dog's heat cycle lasted 2 weeks (for the most part with some "oddballs" thrown in), where did you learn it was only 6 days? I can't see why a male that is properly confined should not be allowed to go out into their own yard, just because his owner is not able/willing to go out and watch over him. As I said my male produced an Ooops litter but the female came over a 6 foot fence. Was it my responsiblity that this happened when my male wasn't under visual observation in his own yard from which he had never tried to leave (and probably couldn't even if he did)? I don't think so. As I stated, I believe that the female's owner needs to be held at greater responsiblity to prevent litters because no matter how ignorant the male's owner is, the female can't get preggers if her owner is extra cautious.


In your case sure, it was the the owner of the female's fault. However, does that mean you believe that it is _always_ the owner of the female's responsibility? That's the question. In your case, I would agree with you that it was definitely more the owner of the female's fault. However, that is not the question. Had it been the other way around with a male jumping into your yard and impregnating your intact female, you would probably think it was the owner of the male's fault. But only in that case. 

And as far as the benefits of not spaying and neutering go, I'm still not sure the benefits outweigh the risks. Almost every single intact male dog I've seen at my clinic past the age of 8 seems to have some sort of horrific prostate or bladder issue. And I've seen way too many unwanted pregnancies, planned pregnancies that result in c-sections and decapitate puppies stuck in the birth canal, prolapsed uterus, etc. to believe that keeping a dog intact its entire life is really the healthiest thing for them. 

Back on topic: it is definitely both parties' responsibilities to keep their intact dogs from creating any unplanned litters. Sure there are some circumstances in which it seems to be more one party's fault than the other, but in the end, if it happens, then at one point, both parties went wrong with their dogs and didn't exercise as much caution as they could have.


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## Chocx2 (Nov 16, 2009)

Ok, I know Im coming in on this late, but my dogs are intact and knock on wood no accidents. Its not easy keeping them apart but if that how you want to keep your dogs there is no room for mistakes!! I think animals are better off left with all there "stuff".
But my dogs don't get out, run loose, and are not tied out. They have a yard and are supervised while out and they are walked daily and on my days off they are trained and get to play.
And when they can't be supervised thats what crates are for, I even put and extra lock on mine.


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## Celt (Dec 27, 2010)

rannmiller--I wouldn't blame the male's owner if my dog got pregnant because it would have been MY fault. I would be upset that the male's owner didn't "control" his dog but it would be because of what kind of "violence" could occur.


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## RCTRIPLEFRESH5 (Feb 11, 2010)

both owners are responsible on BOTH ends. a females owner should stop the female from wandering with her butt in the air waiting for males to pounce on her....and if a male's owner comes in contact with a stray female in heat he should run away with his dog. on the other side..a female's owner shoul run away if a male with a hard on comes charging at his female..and a male's owner should never allow that situation to occur.


PuppyPaws said:


> Do you think that owners of in tact males are every bit as much responsible for unplanned and accidental litters?
> 
> I own 5 intact dogs. Three are females, and two are males. I honestly take JUST as much precaution with my intact males around the clock, as I do with females in heat. I get really sick of owners leaving their male dogs in tact, and then shrugging it off when they sire a litter, because the female's owners should have been more careful. While I agree, YES, if accidental litters are happening, the female's owner is a complete and utter moron as well...it REALLY peeves me out to see people make the decision to NOT neuter their males, and then NOT assume responsibility for that.
> 
> ...


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## malluver1005 (Nov 15, 2009)

I just don't agree with BOTH parties being responsible for the "oops" litter. I see no problem with an intact male or female in his backyard as long as it is fully fenced in. The owner of the dog that gets into the contained area is the one at fault.


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## CorgiPaws (Mar 31, 2009)

RCTRIPLEFRESH5 said:


> stop the female from wandering with her butt in the air


.... that's not where babies come form.


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## meggels (May 30, 2010)

PuppyPaws said:


> .... that's not where babies come form.


they come from the puppy stork!


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## RCTRIPLEFRESH5 (Feb 11, 2010)

PuppyPaws said:


> .... that's not where babies come form.


sigh..why do i bother even posting.


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## CorgiPaws (Mar 31, 2009)

RCTRIPLEFRESH5 said:


> sigh..why do i bother even posting.


I'm not sure :-\



....because you love all of us?!


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## MollyWoppy (Mar 19, 2010)

Keep posting RC, I get a kick out of reading some of your posts. Actually, come to think of it, you owe me a new keyboard mate, I spilt my coffee reading your post at the top of the page!


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## RCTRIPLEFRESH5 (Feb 11, 2010)

MollyWoppy said:


> Keep posting RC, I get a kick out of reading some of your posts. Actually, come to think of it, you owe me a new keyboard mate, I spilt my coffee reading your post at the top of the page!


what was wrong with it? besides the butt thing it was a very thought provoking stance on this subject.
just noticed i said hard on lol.


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## doggiedad (Jan 23, 2011)

when you're a responsible dog owner it doesn't
matter if your dog is neutered. i've never had a dog neutered.
my dogs are inside dogs. i don't leave them in the yard
unattended. when friends visit with their female dogs
the dogs are never left alone. keeping an eye on your dog
is part of being a responsible owner.keeping an eye on your dog keeps them safe.


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## KittyKat (Feb 11, 2011)

RCTRIPLEFRESH5 said:


> what was wrong with it? besides the butt thing it was a very *thought provoking *stance on this subject.
> * just noticed i said hard on* lol.


...what?

... on an actual discussion note: My dog has not been spade. She's a show dog and so she has to stay this way until she gets her title. We are unsure on breeding her as another female in the little will be bred. She's gone through heat once so far and I have to say - it's a hassle and a half keeping a diaper on her (she's so good at weaseling out of it). We don't let her loose when she's in heat, but we also live in the country where contact with other dogs is few and far between - which makes it a bit easier.


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## meggels (May 30, 2010)

Not totally related and I dunno how much this actually plays into a dogs aggression....

But I live in an apt complex next to a high school. Each night at 6 we sort of have an underground doggie play group that meets on the fenced in sporting fields next door at the hs. 

There's this one family that has this monster obese JRT named Milo who looks very humongous (not really in weight). He's not neutered. He's a nasty little thing to Abbie, who is the most polite and calm and sweet dog with other dogs, she's very savvy when it comes to interacting with other canines. 

He chases her around snarling at her. I don't get why he's not neutered :-X


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## maplewood (Apr 14, 2011)

I haven't read ever single post. However I'd like to say two things.

1 As the owner of an unaltered bitch is IS my responsability to prevent her from being bred and producing an unwanted and unplanned litter.
2 As the owner of an unaltered dog it IS my responsability to prevent him from breeding to a bitch and producing an unwanted and unplanned litter.


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## Cliffdog (Dec 30, 2010)

meggels said:


> Not totally related and I dunno how much this actually plays into a dogs aggression....
> 
> But I live in an apt complex next to a high school. Each night at 6 we sort of have an underground doggie play group that meets on the fenced in sporting fields next door at the hs.
> 
> ...


Eh, terriers are prone to animal/dog aggression. Not all of them will be that way, people are breeding them for show/pets (and ruining their working ability, but I digress...) but occasionally you will still get a throwback to their old animal aggressive tendencies.


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## Dude and Bucks Mamma (May 14, 2011)

meggels said:


> Not totally related and I dunno how much this actually plays into a dogs aggression....
> 
> But I live in an apt complex next to a high school. Each night at 6 we sort of have an underground doggie play group that meets on the fenced in sporting fields next door at the hs.
> 
> ...


My suggestion would be (if he harasses other dogs too) that several of you approach his owner and ask that either he be kept on a leash or not brought at all.


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