# Canine Caviar



## SaltyDog (Mar 10, 2010)

In the last week or so, a couple of posts have brought up Canine Caviar.

This is the dry dog food forum, so why not have a discussion about it.

The facts are this....it is a renderless food with the first ingredient in dehydrated form, so the named meat source is trully the first ingredient. All the formulas have over 520 K/cals per cup. There is one grain free version, but it does have peas in it which could be pushing the protein percentage.

The claim is that it is cooked for only 6 seconds, stating it is a "raw" kibble. Another claim is that the owner of the company had a Great Dane live to be 17 years old on this "formula". A third claim is that there are no known cases of bloat on this food.

It is corn free, wheat free, GMO free. Currently the food is produced by Ohio Pet Foods.

It is not an overly high protein food, but it does provide a fantastic amount of energy.

Open for discussion. :smile:


----------



## CorgiPaws (Mar 31, 2009)

I'm not a *huge* fan of CC, and I do think the calories per cup are really all the hype there is about it. 
I don't pay much attention to kcal/cup. The reason being: it simply doesn't matter. I'd be looking at ingredients, protein, carbs, and company reliability, not kcals. 

I get the whole "more calories means you can fed less of it!" but that really doesn't appeal to me at all. I could take a million supplements a day, and eat hardly nothing... but that doesn't make it healthy. I feel this is the kind of think CC is. COndensed artificial nutrition. (granted, that's what all commercially packaged foods are- canine and human alike) I also like to see named meats rather than just meat meals. I don't mind there being some meals, but I am more drawn to real meats. 

That being said, it's by no means awful. I just feel there are better options as far as kibbles go. That's all. :biggrin:


----------



## wrangler1 (Jun 27, 2010)

Its a good food for sure, the venison & pea is very very expensive and probably not worth it. The prior post makes no sense at all, particularly the comment about fresh meat in kibble, but I won't go into that again some people can't grasp a simple concept. Likewise the comment on calories is bizarre.

CC is a companion food though. If you don't hunt or trial those Weims it should be ok. The chicken version is pricey as well.

So, its good but franky your dog would do just as well on Ohio's house brand Master & Pet Supreme for less than half the price.

Thumbs up on the co-packer.


----------



## SaltyDog (Mar 10, 2010)

I'm only bringing this food up for discussion. I fed this food for about a year with good results.

My current feed is Honest Kitchen (both dogs), Evo Chicken/Turkey (adult Weim), and Orijen Large Breed Puppy (puppy Weim).


Also to Linsey, Canine Caviar has no meals in it. I'm a bit confused as to what you were saying. Canine Caviar has one meat source in dehydrated form.


----------



## Unosmom (May 3, 2009)

canine caviar venison/split pea

Ingredients
Venison Meal, Split Pea, Canola Oil, Dried Pumpkin, Whole Ground Flaxseed, Sun-Cured Alfalfa, Venison Tripe, Dried Beet Pulp, Coconut Oil, Borage Oil, Primrose Oil, Sun-Cured Kelp, Sodium Chloride, Lecithin, Whole Clove Garlic, Parsley, Peppermint, Limestone, Dried Chicory Root, Taurine, Yucca Schidigera Extract, Papaya, Rose Hips, Riboflavin Supplement, Vitamin B12 Supplement, Niacin, Vitamin A Supplement, Calcium Pantothenate, Zinc Proteinate, Manganese Proteinate, Iron Proteinate, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride (a source of vitamin B6), Vitamin D3 Supplement, Thiamine, Methionine, Biotin, Folic Acid, Sodium Selenite, L-Carnitine, Beta Carotene.


----------



## CorgiPaws (Mar 31, 2009)

wrangler1 said:


> The prior post makes no sense at all, particularly the comment about fresh meat in kibble, but I won't go into that again some people can't grasp a simple concept.


Actually, the prior post makes a whole lot of sense. 
I like to see NAMED MEATS (not just meals) at the top of ingredient lists. Why? Meat meals contain very little meat, and are more or less the remains of the carcass AFTER the meat is removed for the human food market. I'm not against meat meals, by any means, as I like to see animal products over plant products, however, to see fresh meat on the list is important. 
So what if the weight is inclusive of water? That's what MEAT is. I don't understand this mentality of trying to condense nurtients. So, before you go off running your ignorant mouth about being so superior and others around here not able to grasp simple concepts, realize that YOU make very little sense around here more often than not. 



wrangler1 said:


> Likewise the comment on calories is bizarre.


What "sets CC apart" is its calorie content. I PERSONALLY am just not impressed about it. So what? more calories per cup? neat. I'm not all about feeding my dogs as little quantity as possible to get by, and that's the novelty of CC. I don't buy into it. I'm not sure how that doesn't make sense. 


My point, which so easily waved over your head, is that I find it to be righ there with other "decent" foods, but the things that ate supposed to "set it apart" just don't impress me. I'm sorry you can't "grasp that simple concept.




wrangler1 said:


> CC is a companion food though. If you don't hunt or trial those Weims it should be ok. The chicken version is pricey as well.


What? not enough corn for those hunting dogs?


----------



## buddy97 (Mar 29, 2010)

CorgiPaws said:


> Actually, the prior post makes a whole lot of sense.
> I like to see NAMED MEATS (not just meals) at the top of ingredient lists. Why? Meat meals contain very little meat, and are more or less the remains of the carcass AFTER the meat is removed :


as said before, named meats in kibble contribute virtually no meat. there is no standardized definition of meat meals and many are better than others. orijen has stated directly that their named meat meals are made from mostly muscle meat. some of the definitions of meat meals that are getting thrown around may indeed apply to the lower quality meat meals.

_EVO large bites:

Ingredients
Turkey, Chicken, Turkey Meal, Chicken Meal, Potatoes, Herring Meal, Chicken Fat, Natural Flavors, Egg,Apples, Carrots, Tomatoes, Cottage Cheese, Alfalfa Sprouts, Dried Chicory Root, Taurine, Lecithin, Rosemary Extract, Vitamins/Minerals, Viable Naturally Occurring Microorganisms_

virtually all the "meat" in this food is turkey meal and chicken meal, then some herring meal and very little chicken and turkey.

there is not a single dog food i know of that uses named meats to achieve a high level of meat in their food. if that bag of evo got a significant portion of its meat content from chicken or turkey, i can assure you the amount of fresh chicken and turkey they would have had to start out with is so tremendous that it wouldnt be a $60 bag of food...more like $160.

...its just a feel good tactic by the manufacturers. they know people like to see those meats listed first..they also know they can do that (because of current labeling laws) without them contributing much meat to the product.


....and guess who has have been the strongest in their opposition to changing those labeling laws...the big pocket companies that like to say "chicken as the real first ingredient" on their grocery store foods.

as far as CC using the term "raw kibble"...........sure there is raw kibble, i saw the scarecrow carrying a bag of it down the yellow brick road for Toto.

even if kibble was made with only fresh meats to begin with , the processing to make kibble degrades to the point that to pretend its some type of alternative to raw is ridiculous.


----------



## CorgiPaws (Mar 31, 2009)

buddy97 said:


> as said before, named meats in kibble contribute virtually no meat. there is no standardized definition of meat meals and many are better than others. orijen has stated directly that their named meat meals are made from mostly muscle meat. some of the definitions of meat meals that are getting thrown around may indeed apply to the lower quality meat meals.


Right. I get that. Like I said before, I am not against meat meals, I just like to fresh meats right there along with it. Is that a crime? My issue with *only* meat meals, is that you can't even be sure of what you're getting. Thus, I like to see FRESH MEATS up there somewhere, too.


----------



## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

what method of processing do these companies use?

do they lightly cook then dehydrate? do they take the slurry with the fringe on top and the meal and cook it for days on end at high temperatures?

how is this food processed?

talking about the parts by themselves means something, but how those pieces put together into kibble means everything....


----------



## buddy97 (Mar 29, 2010)

CorgiPaws said:


> Right. I get that. Like I said before, I am not against meat meals, I just like to fresh meats right there along with it. Is that a crime? My issue with *only* meat meals, is that you can't even be sure of what you're getting. Thus, I like to see FRESH MEATS up there somewhere, too.


right, you like to see fresh meats listed. i get that. but it is only a phycological satisfaction. i think everyone overestimates how much meat is left when you lose 70% of its weight. they arent really contributing much to the food at all. what you are getting is whatever meat is being provided by the named meat meals. the sprinkling of named meats in the product are miniscule. its like buying a car because it has a mercedes emblem on the hood, but the engine is a chevy.

now, if they changed labeling requirements to post production weights and there was a dog food still listing a named meat first, that would be something else. 

if you want to know more about how the meat meals are made that are being used by your manufacturer, ask them. orijen was pretty upfront about how they make their meals, and where they source some of them.

that EVO i listed earlier really looks like:

Ingredients
Turkey Meal, Chicken Meal, Potatoes, Herring Meal, Chicken Fat, Natural Flavors, Egg,Apples, Carrots, Turkey, Chicken, Tomatoes, Cottage Cheese, Alfalfa Sprouts, Dried Chicory Root, Taurine, Lecithin, Rosemary Extract, Vitamins/Minerals, Viable Naturally Occurring Microorganisms

...probably about as much turkey and chicken as tomatoes and carrots, which is to say very little. it doesnt make me feel better to see those meats listed because i know i could just toss a tiny portion of chicken breast on the kibble and be adding a heck of alot more meat than those listed meats provide.

anyone that doesnt like that a super high percentage of the meat in their kibble comes from named meat meals (and it does in any high protein grainless kibble) should be seriously considering feeding raw or at least adding some of it to the diet.

BUT, i get it...it makes you feel good to see them listed.


----------



## CorgiPaws (Mar 31, 2009)

buddy97 said:


> BUT, i get it...it makes you feel good to see them listed.


Only because you have NO idea how much meat is actually in meals. Is a chicken breast any less chicken because it's not dehydrated? no. 
Like I said, I like to see BOTH, but one without the other isn't as impressive to me. 



buddy97 said:


> anyone that doesnt like that a super high percentage of the meat in their kibble comes from named meat meals (and it does in any high protein grainless kibble) should be seriously considering feeding raw or at least adding some of it to the diet.


it's not really a secret I'm a raw feeder. 
BUT, I own a small business that does sell dogfoods, (though it's not our primary focus as a doggy daycare) so I DO keep myself informed, because I am making recommendations concerning commercial foods all the time.


----------



## wrangler1 (Jun 27, 2010)

Feeding a dog has become a "feel good" process not what is good for the dog. What amazes me is that when you talk "by-products" like organs and even chicken feet people go into convulsions. They miss the fact that this is what dogs eat. All these raw feeders wasting money on chicken, beef and goat muscle meat really don't understand basic canine nutrition but seeing that clean meat make them feel good. 

When it comes to dry foods, most don't understand that there are numerous grades of meal products, from very good to very bad. The best by-product meals are far superior to the average non-by-product meals used in 99% of the foods. Many nutritionists do in fact favor by-product meals from organ sources but the public needs to feel good even though an inferior product costs twice as much.

My favorite feel good thing is pork fat. God forbid a dog has pork fat: Oh No he will die. Well, pork fat is mostly unsaturated but the saturated portion is actually a very healthy fat, far better than the saturated fat in chicken & beef. If you don't believe just google it.

And Lard, oh no Lard, he will die. Well any rendered fat like chicken fat is technically lard. If you think there is someone at the plant cutting pieces of fresh chicken fat up and throwing it in the mixer you are dead wrong. The fat in kibbles is a highly processed product and it is sprayed on and the left to dry. Chicken fat is also far cheaper than pork fat, so any company using pork fat is not using it because its cheap.

I wont get into corn but that is another good one.

But it all makes people feel good.


----------



## CorgiPaws (Mar 31, 2009)

wrangler1 said:


> Feeding a dog has become a "feel good" process not what is good for the dog. What amazes me is that when you talk "by-products" like organs and even chicken feet people go into convulsions. They miss the fact that this is what dogs eat.


I don't miss this fact at all. Let me clerify for you... I AM a prey model raw feeder. I feed my dogs muscle meat, bones, and organs... and yes, actually, I have a package of chicken feet in the freezer right now. (great source of glucosamine!) 



wrangler1 said:


> All these raw feeders wasting money on chicken, beef and goat muscle meat really don't understand basic canine nutrition but seeing that clean meat make them feel good.


Muscle meat is *part* of a good raw diet, but those on this forum feeding raw understand that it's only a piece of the pie. Bone content, organs, AND meat. They all have their place. 



wrangler1 said:


> When it comes to dry foods, most don't understand that there are numerous grades of meal products, from very good to very bad. The best by-product meals are far superior to the average non-by-product meals used in 99% of the foods. Many nutritionists do in fact favor by-product meals from organ sources but the public needs to feel good even though an inferior product costs twice as much.


This was never a matter of by products and by product meals... nor was it a kibble vs. raw discussion, but that's for making it that. I hold no grudge against by-products. I just like to see there's SOME muscle meat in there, and all these meat meals, and by product meals really give you NO idea how much of what is in there.


----------



## RawFedDogs (Jun 16, 2008)

wrangler1 said:


> All these raw feeders wasting money on chicken, beef and goat muscle meat really don't understand basic canine nutrition but seeing that clean meat make them feel good.


Most of the raw feeders I know are very aware of canine nutrition. Many, like myself, have made a mulit year study of it. I sometimes feed whole rabbit where the dogs get eyeballs, brains, guts, fur, the whole works. 



> When it comes to dry foods, most don't understand that there are numerous grades of meal products, from very good to very bad.


Since there is no way of telling what the quality of meal is in a dog food, why would the company pay for expensive stuff when the customer wouldn't know the difference if they used the cheap stuff. Remember, the ingredients in dog food are all garbage anyway. 

[/quote]But it all makes people feel good.[/QUOTE]

I feed WONDERFUL with what I feed my dogs. :biggrin:


----------



## SaltyDog (Mar 10, 2010)

I've looking into feeding raw, but my wife just isn't having it.

I feel great with Honest Kitchen with added chicken or beef and would like to move solely to this type of feed. I know alot of people on here don't care for Honest Kitchen, but my dogs seem to love it so very much.


I don't try to challenge those that feed Annamaet or Abady. They have a close and loyal following. I do feel it is a 30 year old concept and pet nutrition has evolved greatly. I'm sure people at Westminster laugh at Evo and Orijen....just as Evo and Orijen users laugh at Abady users.

As for Canine Caviar...it is certainly not the best formula, but far far far from the worst. I can say that I would go back to Canine Caviar before ever going back to Wellness Super 5.


----------



## buddy97 (Mar 29, 2010)

RawFedDogs said:


> Since there is no way of telling what the quality of meal is in a dog food, why would the company pay for expensive stuff when the customer wouldn't know the difference if they used the cheap stuff. Remember, the ingredients in dog food are all garbage anyway.
> :


then P&G will immediately go to the lowest grade named meat meals (which i doubt are now used in food like EVO) since the loyal Natura customers will be none the wiser.:wink:

on a serious note, it gets harder and harder to read all these kibble threads without coming to the conclusion that at least some raw meat has got to get into a dogs gullet...and it aint comin from kibble. yes, i got to that point months ago and am at about 50% raw at this point.


----------



## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

SaltyDog said:


> I've looking into feeding raw, but my wife just isn't having it.
> 
> I feel great with Honest Kitchen with added chicken or beef and would like to move solely to this type of feed. I know alot of people on here don't care for Honest Kitchen, but my dogs seem to love it so very much.
> 
> ...


our dogs did well on wellness super five....plus missing link and salmon oil...

and they did well on cooked....

my husband was so totally against raw....the number of articles i had to present to him....we have a dog who is ten and her beginnings weren't the best...three of our dogs had died in one year....and i didn't want her to die before her time. she was ready for another 500 dollar dental...she had gotten giardia at her age..and, while it's not uncommon, it's not common for dogs her age to get it, which told me her immune system wasn't at its best...

the rescue pug we brought home was a behavioural mess, his anus was bleached, yeasty ears, booger eyes, dry skin, flaky fur..you name it...he had it...

once i convinced my honey, well, the rest is history...but it's not for everyone......it's everything for the dog, but let's face it...we are human and we have to do what we gotta do.....

understandable.....we all have our reasons for doing what we do, but when i talk to people who have been feeding raw for a decade to three decades and the results are so positive i have to pay attention and research it for the benefit of my own peace of mind and my dog's health.


----------



## RawFedDogs (Jun 16, 2008)

buddy97 said:


> then P&G will immediately go to the lowest grade named meat meals (which i doubt are now used in food like EVO) since the loyal Natura customers will be none the wiser.:wink:


I'm betting Natura is already using the cheapest meals. :smile:



> yes, i got to that point months ago and am at about 50% raw at this point.


And it won't be a lot longer before you are 100% raw. Once you realize that you aren't helping yourself or your dog by feeding kibble part time. :smile:


----------



## wrangler1 (Jun 27, 2010)

magicre said:


> our dogs did well on wellness super five....plus missing link and salmon oil...
> 
> and they did well on cooked....
> 
> ...



"I do feel it is a 30 year old concept and pet nutrition has evolved greatly"

What specifically about Abady is old fashioned? Is it the highest meat content of any other commercial food? Is it the lowest carb % of any other commercial food? Is it the fact that it is made in a multi-stage process where nothing is exposed to heat except the rice biscuit? Is it the fact he was selling raw frozen products before it was fashionable?

You speak about all these advances but the real advance has been the focus on animal protein, but Abady was and is still the leader. Have you ever used it? He was the first guy to sell a complete raw frozen product and the granulars followed.

The only problem with Abady is that it is poorly marketed. No feel good colors, cute pictures or daises on the package.

I feel bad for dogs where the owners think "advancement" is a food with dehydrated cabbage.


----------



## StellaLucyDesi (Oct 29, 2008)

Back to the topic...Canine Caviar. I am feeding it at the present time and loving it....I mean the dogs love it hahaha. Anyway, we got the food into the store and everyone was pretty excited. I was like, "Oh, another new food, great..". Well, Lucy was recently diagnosed with beginning kidney disease. I was not going to feed her the presc. food and cooking for her was not in the cards (at this time). Raw is not for me. When I began looking for a dry food that had the lowest phosphorus percentage I could find, I came upon CC Special Needs. Granted it was a lower protein % (I wasn't too thrilled about that), but the phos. was in the ball park. I figured I could add canned meat to up the protein, if necessary. I also liked to fact that there was no transition period at all with this food. She could start eating it right way! I tried it, and she is doing great with this food. I add canned meat, ala BG, Wellness 95%, CC can Turkey, Venison, etc. She also gets a supplement for her kidneys and fish oil. She has been on this food for almost 3 months now and doing great! I put the rest of the gang on CC Lamb & Millet, as well. They are doing great, too. So, yes, I like this food and I'm getting good results. I will continue to feed it as long as I'm getting good results. Btw, at our store, it's no more expensive than Wellness, Holistic Select, Innova/Evo, etc.


----------



## SaltyDog (Mar 10, 2010)

StellaLucyDesi said:


> Btw, at our store, it's no more expensive than Wellness, Holistic Select, Innova/Evo, etc.



No more expensive? It should be waaaaay less expensive. Wellness around here sells for $54 (30lb) for Super 5 and $62 (26lb) for Core. Evo $58 (28lb). 

Canine Caviar (30lb) sells for $45.


----------



## whiteleo (Sep 7, 2008)

I just don't get people that when they discover there dog has a health issue that in its finality could be their demise: would rather prolong and feed into its issues than actually do something about it. Raw may not be for you, but is it for you? NO! Its for the health of your dog.


----------



## StellaLucyDesi (Oct 29, 2008)

First of all, you don't know anything about me. But your comment tells alot about you, IMHO. Anyway...I usually don't respond to insults, but for your information, I've actually helped Lucy by changing her to this food and doing the supplement that I'm doing. A lot of research went into this regimen. She is doing way better than she was. Tests have proved that. I am not a raw feeder, but you don't hear me slandering you because you are. I treat my dogs better than most children/people are treated. That is a fact. They have everything they want or need. I haven't been to this forum in awhile and just started posting again lately. It is definitely pro raw, and I know that, but I think some respect should be shown to others that feed different kinds of food. If not, then rename the forum "Rawfoodchat". I went away before because of rudeness, and I think I'm making that trip again forever. Yes, you have a right to comment, but I guess I'm a pollyanna for still believing in tact and being considerate of others. IMO, this is what's really wrong with the world today. Gee...I'm so mad I'm rambling!


----------



## whiteleo (Sep 7, 2008)

But you aren't even willing to cook for your dogs, that says alot about You!


----------



## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

wrangler1 said:


> "I do feel it is a 30 year old concept and pet nutrition has evolved greatly"
> 
> What specifically about Abady is old fashioned? Is it the highest meat content of any other commercial food? Is it the lowest carb % of any other commercial food? Is it the fact that it is made in a multi-stage process where nothing is exposed to heat except the rice biscuit? Is it the fact he was selling raw frozen products before it was fashionable?
> 
> ...


you're attributing this post to me, when i wasn't the one who posted it.


----------



## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

StellaLucyDesi said:


> First of all, you don't know anything about me. But your comment tells alot about you, IMHO. Anyway...I usually don't respond to insults, but for your information, I've actually helped Lucy by changing her to this food and doing the supplement that I'm doing. A lot of research went into this regimen. She is doing way better than she was. Tests have proved that. I am not a raw feeder, but you don't hear me slandering you because you are. I treat my dogs better than most children/people are treated. That is a fact. They have everything they want or need. I haven't been to this forum in awhile and just started posting again lately. It is definitely pro raw, and I know that, but I think some respect should be shown to others that feed different kinds of food. If not, then rename the forum "Rawfoodchat". I went away before because of rudeness, and I think I'm making that trip again forever. Yes, you have a right to comment, but I guess I'm a pollyanna for still believing in tact and being considerate of others. IMO, this is what's really wrong with the world today. Gee...I'm so mad I'm rambling!


a bit defensive?

direct and forthright is not necessarily the same as rude and insulting.

is there some niggling doubt in your mind that you could be doing something more than spending money and pouring food into a dish?

as to opinion? we all have opinions...so why do you even care if someone doesn't agree.....it's not our dog....

i don't agree with what you're feeding and i was a kibble feeder and a home cooked feeder....took me well over a year to research ALL foods and feeding methods....and, in the meantime, i lost three dogs to a particular food...i'm convinced of it....because of a particular ingredient that i was too ignorant to look up.

and maybe i would have stayed on kibble had i not started researching....

but what you're feeding has flaxseed in it....it's a bowel irritant....all it's good for in dogs is to ensure a bowel movement. and pumpkin? same thing. that's two ingredients right off the top of my head that will make sure your dog has bowel movements...why? because your dog's intestinal tract needs help?

your dog's kidneys need help.....so what in this food is kidney friendly, which is something that i hope you researched...and if my saying this makes me rude and insulting, too bad.

these forums are for our dogs' benefit, not your feelings.


----------



## Scottish Teriyaki (Jul 7, 2010)

I'm also interested to hear other's experiences with feeding Canine Caviar to their dogs. I just recently bought Canine Caviar Chicken & Pearl Millet for my dog, but I haven't switched him to it yet (gonna wait until he finishes his current food first).


----------



## CorgiPaws (Mar 31, 2009)

Please keep it civil guys. This person is genuinely trying to make a better choice for his/her dog. We can either 

1. Judge and be rude, sending them away for good... or 
2. accept the fact that not EVERYONE is going to feed raw, and help them make the best choice possible within their limits. 

I vote for number two. 

Whiteleo, this is the kibble section. if you wish to promote raw feeding, there's a section for that, but don't do it here. 


Goodness, what is with all the hostility this past week you guys?!


----------



## CorgiPaws (Mar 31, 2009)

magicre said:


> these forums are for our dogs' benefit, not your feelings.


As true as this statement may be, that does not give ANY member of this forum grounds to talk down to another member based on what he or she is willing to feed or not. NOT everyone is going to feed raw, or home cooked. Plain and simple. And here in the KIBBLE AND CANNED section, those people should be able to post their questions, and get answers. Don't have a suggestion for kibble or canned food the help the issue? Don't post in the thread. A FRIENDLY PM asking if they've considered raw is sufficient, but let's respect all member's limitations. 
Please keep that in mind. :smile:


----------

