# What is the best, high quality, grain free, low recalls, kibble?



## murbanski (Sep 25, 2012)

I do not have my own dog yet. I live with my parents still, they have a ChowxNewf and we have had other dogs, done rescue, foster, etc. However I am doing research before I get my dog because I want to do what is best for them.
I would rather feed my dog raw than anything else. Please no rude comments on this. And this is also not the question I am asking, so I would like your energy to be focused on the question I am going to pose, please. 

What is the best natural, organic, high quality, low to grain free kibble that is from a reputable company that has no or very few recalls? Please no suggestions for Purina, Pedigree, Eukanuba, Iams, BilJac, EaglePak, etc. Even if these have worked for your dog I want to avoid them at all cost, no disrespect intended. 
Also, I will be getting a giant breed puppy (Neapolitan Mastiff).


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## lauren43 (Feb 6, 2011)

Brands I usually recommend:

Fromm
Horizon

I've also heard good things about:

Annamaet
Orijen 
Acana
Earthborn
Nurtisource
Evo

The second list of foods are more "rich" some have many different ingredients and some have in my opinion have high kcals/cup...of course I have a dog the gains weight easily and can have a sensitive tummy so I have to watch these things...many dogs do fantastic on these foods. BTW my dog has not tried all of these foods..


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## domika (Jul 15, 2012)

You'll want to make sure the calcium phosphorus level is appropriate for a giant breed. I don't have a giant breed so I don't know the specific numbers, but I'm hoping someone will comment. I know a lot of popular foods aren't really appropriate for them.


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## Javadoo (May 23, 2011)

Fromm is my #1 pick.


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## lovemydogsalways (Mar 4, 2012)

Earthborn Holistic, Fromm, Nutrisource.


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## Felix (Oct 9, 2012)

I love Acana and Orijen, but Fromm and Nutrisource are good as well.


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## Georgiapeach (Jan 24, 2011)

Acana, if you can afford it.


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## InkedMarie (Sep 9, 2011)

Beside Fromm, Earthborn and Annamaet, add Brothers to the list. No recalls, Brothers Complete


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## shellbell (Sep 24, 2011)

Fromm (is what I would say)


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## Shamrockmommy (Sep 10, 2009)

Fromm Four Star!

I'm also curiuos about Brother's as well. Have yet to try it, perhaps the next bag.


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## 1605 (May 27, 2009)

EVO. We use Turkey/Chicken but all their grain free formulas seem to be good.

However, as has already been noted, this is a very calorie dense food that is probably not appropriate for sedentary or not-very-active dogs. Since we have two GSPs, we don't have that "problem". :wink:


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## Chiwawamom (Jul 5, 2012)

We have tried all of the above And we are now switching to Fromm Salmon Tunalini.


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## InkedMarie (Sep 9, 2011)

Shamrockmommy said:


> Fromm Four Star!
> 
> I'm also curiuos about Brother's as well. Have yet to try it, perhaps the next bag.


I'm on my first bag, they've been on it for one meal since Sept 15th. I wanted Boone on it because of paw licking. I don't know if it's behavioral or a yeast buildup. He has had issues off and on (more off than on) with yeasty ears. The owner of Brothers spoke to me at length and suggested I try it for him. He said to give it up to 6mos to see a change but he IS licking his paws less. I wanted Ginger on it because she used to poop 2-6 times a day, large sometimes soft poop. This occured whether she was on grainfree or grain inclusive kibble but when she was on The Honest Kitchen, it always happened. Brothers is worth it for me just because of her poop: it's little and only 2-3 times a day!


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## murbanski (Sep 25, 2012)

Thank you all for the suggestions! I guess what really gets me is it seems that all the ingredients in foods (minus the absolute crap such as Iams, Science Diet, etc.) are all the same! It seems like you pay more for a pretty package but you are getting the same ingredients. Ingredients

Fresh Duck
Chicken Meal
Fresh Chicken
Oatmeal
Pearled Barley
Brown Rice
Menhaden Fish Meal
Fresh Lamb
Fresh Russet Potatoes
Dried Tomato Pomace
Whole Egg
Chicken Fat
Salmon Oil
Fresh Wisconsin Cheese
Flaxseed
Brewers Dried Yeast
Alfalfa Meal
Fresh Carrots
Fresh Lettuce
Fresh Celery
Chicken Cartilage
Calcium Sulfate
Salt
Potassium Chloride
Monocalcium Phosphate
DL-Methionine
Tryptophane
Taurine
Chicory Root Extract
Yucca Schidigera Extract
Sodium Selenite
Vitamins
Minerals
Probiotics
Guaranteed Analysis
Crude Protein 26% Min
Crude Fat	14% Min
Crude Fiber	3.5% Max
Calorie Content
kcal/kg	4,134.30
kcal/lb	1,879.23
kcal/g	4.13
kcal/cup*	384.09

vs

Lamb, lamb meal, egg product, cracked pearled barley, millet, ground rice, pea protein, chicken fat (preserved with mixed tocopherols), oatmeal, potatoes, tomato pomace, flaxseed, natural flavor, ocean fish meal, salmon oil (source of DHA), potassium chloride, salt, choline chloride, dried chicory root, dried kelp, carrots, peas, apples, tomatoes, blueberries, spinach, dried skim milk, cranberries, rosemary extract, parsley flake, yucca schidigera extract, L-Carnitine, dried Enterococcus faecium fermentation product, dried Lactobacillus acidophilus fermentation product, Lactobacillus acidophilus, Lactobacillus casei and Lactobacillus plantarum, dried Trichoderma longibrachiatum fermentation extract, vitamin E supplement, iron proteinate, zinc proteinate, copper proteinate, ferrous sulfate, zinc sulfate, copper sulfate, potassium iodide, thiamine mononitrate, manganese proteinate, manganous oxide, ascorbic acid, vitamin A supplement, biotin, niacin, calcium pantothenate, manganese sulfate, sodium selenite, pyridoxine hydrochloride (vitamin B6), vitamin B12 supplement, riboflavin, vitamin D supplement, folic acid.

Protein: 27% Fat: 15%
Calories: 3,656 kcal/kg (342 kcal/cup) Calculated ME


The top one is Fromm's Large Breed Puppy Gold, the second one is Diamond Large Breed Lamb and Rice Puppy. VERY similar ingredients, and yet the Fromm's is twice as much. The ingredients are also similar to Taste of the Wild (which is a Diamond product so that makes sense), Blue Buffalo, Wellness, etc. I want to do what is best for my dog and since I can't (raw is best IMHO), I don't know what is best as far as kibble goes. I know this sounds ridiculous, but it seems like if I'm not spending good money, the food must not be good. I know Diamond has had a lot of recalls, so I don't really want to go that direction. I can't really go with Orijen due to the high protein and fat content for a giant breed puppy. And EVO makes me a tad bit nervous since they were purchased by P&G. 
I work at Tractor Supply, and I would *like* to buy a food that we carry since I get a pretty good discount. We carry select formulas of Blue Buffalo, Wellness, Taste of the Wild, Diamond, etc. However if there is something better out there I'd like to go with that. There is something that is specifically made for Tractor Supply that is called 4Health which has comparable ingredients and acceptable protein/fat levels and is decently priced. 

Ingredients: 
Salmon, ocean fish meal (a source of fish oil), potatoes, peas, cracked pearled barley, egg product, millet, canola oil, tomato pomace, natural flavor, flaxseed, salt, choline chloride, dried chicory root, glucosamine hydrochloride, dried kelp, carrots, apples, tomatoes, blueberries, spinach, dried skim milk, cranberries, rosemary extract, parsley flake, yucca schidigera extract, L-Carnitine, chondroitin sulfate, dried Enterococcus faecium fermentation product, dried Lactobacillus acidophilus fermentation product, dried Lactobacillus casei fermentation product, dried Lactobacillus plantarum fermentation product, dried Trichoderma longibrachiatum fermentation extract, vitamin E supplement, iron proteinate, zinc proteinate, copper proteinate, ferrous sulfate, zinc sulfate, copper sulfate, potassium iodide, thiamine mononitrate, manganese proteinate, manganous oxide, ascorbic acid, vitamin A supplement, biotin, niacin, calcium pantothenate, manganese sulfate, sodium selenite, pyridoxine hydrochloride (vitamin B6), vitamin B12 supplement, riboflavin, vitamin D supplement, folic acid.
Guaranteed Analysis: 
Crude Protein 25.0% (min.), Crude Fat 14.0% (min.), Crude Fiber 3.0% (max.), Moisture 10.0% (max.), Zinc 150 mg/kg (min.), Selenium 0.4 mg/kg (min.), Vitamin E 150 IU/kg (min.), Omega-6 Fatty Acids* 2.5% (min.), Omega-3 Fatty Acids* 0.5% (min.), Glucosamine* 300 mg/kg (min.), Chondroitin Sulfate* 100 mg/kg (min.),
Caloric Content: 
3,500 kcal/kg (327 kcal/cup) Calculated Metabolizable Energy 

What do you think? I just feel like if *most* dog foods have similar ingredients why should I pay $50+ for one when I can buy the same thing for $20-25 cheaper? Especially when you have a giant dog. 

I am so sorry that all this info is posted and it is such a huge response. I am so lost and the more I read labels, the more all dog foods are looking the same, I just need to know what is the best for my money and my dog's health? I don't want to pay extra cash for notoriety or a pretty package. I want decent ingredients at a decent price.

And thank you all so much for your help and suggestions!


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## lauren43 (Feb 6, 2011)

In my honest opinion you have to go with the food that will give you peace of mind. I know that sounds corny but at the end of the day if your not comfortable with what you feed your dog no one will be happy (you or your dog)...While I agree that many of those foods have similar ingredients the *quality of ingredients* and where they come from plays a big role in price. While I like the idea of food like Orijen and Evo, I think for some dogs (mine being one of them) the amount of different protein sources can be a bit overwhelming. I also don't like the little switches Champion has been making with their products, but I do like the new singles line Acana has even if there are some grains within.

You also want to trust the company you buy from. I personally wouldn't buy any diamond made food. Nor would I buy a food that's known to source ingredients from china. (I personally am not a fan of Blue Buffalo, Kirkland, Wellness, Evo (the last two are because my little dog didn't do that great on them so I may be bias)

And from what I understand of large breeds its the calcium/phosphorous levels you want to be aware of, I don't know how important it is to go with a large breed dog food (as I do not and have not had a large breed dog)...


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## Felix (Oct 9, 2012)

Also, ingredient names may be the same, but the quality of the ingredients will be drastically different. Lamb meal can have very high cartilage content instead of more meat and still be called lamb meal. Also, I think those ingredient labels look drastically different Fromm has 6 meat ingredients while Diamond has only 4. Also, the Diamond Large Breed Puppy Vs Fromm LG breed puppy (in my store that I work for) are only about a $10 difference. Not that much different in price.

Also, what kind of dog do you have? And you are right, many dog foods LOOK similar, but like the previous poster stated, the quality makes a HUGE difference when making kibble


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## Shamrockmommy (Sep 10, 2009)

I agree about ingredient sources. The less expensive foods are less expensive because those cheaper companies pay less for their ingredients. 

This is what I always tell people. Look to your dog. Your dog will tell you how he's doing. He should have nice full, shiny coat. He should have nice, pink clean ears. Stools should be small, formed/firm. Tummies should be quiet, not gassy and grumbly. Teeth/breath should be fairly good. I've noticed with my girls on grain free foods that they don't form plaque on their teeth as quickly as grain-inclusive foods. (Though, admittedly, they get RMBs- mostly chicken- 1-2 times a week for keeping their teeth nice.) 

I have tried 4Health and TOTW as well as Blue Buffalo and the dogs I had at the time developed big ear infections, "doggy" smell to their skin and poor coat.

The short answer is "you'll just have to try something and see." I realize Fromm is spendier, and there are times where my wallet feels the squeeze but I end up returning to it time and again because it works so well for my girls. The 4-Star is supposed to be for all life stages and breeds, by the way. We are getting another PWD pup next summer, and I plan to grow him up on that as well.

HTH


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## murbanski (Sep 25, 2012)

Thank you guys for the suggestions. You are all totally right. I don't really want to buy anything from Diamond because of the recalls. It makes it all that much more complicated because I am getting a giant breed puppy that does have those specific nutritional needs that are different than a normal puppy's. 
Today I went to the pet store and read all the labels of the premium dog food, (with plenty of concerned/creeped/weirded out looks), and I found one that _seemed_ decent. It is called Holistic Select Large & Giant Breed Puppy Formula. I'm not really trying to find a puppy food, just one that has the proper fat/protein/phosphorus/calcium amounts in it. It has the appropriate levels of everything, ingredients are _decent_. It is not grain free, which I really don't like, but then again it isn't Beneful. Not outrageously expensive compared to the ingredients. I haven't heard anything about recalls, but I've never really heard of this food before. 

Ingredients:
Lamb Meal, Ground Brown Rice, Ground White Rice, Chicken Meal, Dried Beet Pulp, Oatmeal, Chicken Fat (preserved with Mixed Tocopherols), Anchovy & Sardine Meal, Flaxseed, Dried Egg Product, Menhaden Fish Oil, Carrots, Pumpkin, Cranberries, Dehydrated Alfalfa Meal, Apples, Salt, Peas, Choline Chloride, Potassium Chloride, Organic Quinoa, Vitamins [Vitamin E Supplement, Beta-Carotene, Ascorbic Acid (Vitamin C), Niacin Supplement, Vitamin B12 Supplement, Vitamin A Supplement, d-Calcium Pantothenate, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride, Vitamin D3 Supplement, Thiamine Mononitrate, Riboflavin Supplement, Biotin, Folic Acid], Minerals [Zinc Polysaccharide Complex, Iron Polysaccharide Complex, Copper Polysaccharide Complex, Manganese Polysaccharide Complex, Sodium Selenite, Cobalt Carbonate, Potassium Iodide], Papaya, Dried Kelp, Taurine, Blueberries, Pomegranate, Inulin, L-Carnitine, Mixed Tocopherols added to preserve freshness, Yucca Schidigera Extract, DL-Methionine, Ground Cinnamon, Ground Fennel, Ground Peppermint, Dried Lactobacillus acidophilus Fermentation Product, Dried Lactobacillus casei Fermentation Product, Dried Enterococcus faecium Fermentation Product, Dried Bacillus subtilis Fermentation Product, Dried Bacillus licheniformis Fermentation Product, Dried Aspergillus oryzae Fermentation Product, Dried Aspergillus niger Fermentation Product, Lecithin, Rosemary Extract.
This is a naturally preserved product.

Have you guys heard anything bad/good/otherwise? Again I know I'm just being OCD and stuff, but hey, I guess I could be worse?


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## murbanski (Sep 25, 2012)

Felix, I am getting a Neapolitan Mastiff puppy. 

I also checked out dogfoodadvisor.com and it got a 4 out of 5. I don't know if it is reputable or not...?


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## Felix (Oct 9, 2012)

murbanski said:


> Thank you guys for the suggestions. You are all totally right. I don't really want to buy anything from Diamond because of the recalls. It makes it all that much more complicated because I am getting a giant breed puppy that does have those specific nutritional needs that are different than a normal puppy's.
> Today I went to the pet store and read all the labels of the premium dog food, (with plenty of concerned/creeped/weirded out looks), and I found one that _seemed_ decent. It is called Holistic Select Large & Giant Breed Puppy Formula. I'm not really trying to find a puppy food, just one that has the proper fat/protein/phosphorus/calcium amounts in it. It has the appropriate levels of everything, ingredients are _decent_. It is not grain free, which I really don't like, but then again it isn't Beneful. Not outrageously expensive compared to the ingredients. I haven't heard anything about recalls, but I've never really heard of this food before.
> 
> Ingredients:
> ...


We sell Holistic select. It's a pretty popular food in my area, but not the most popular by any means. And congrats on the mastiff puppy


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## lovemydogsalways (Mar 4, 2012)

4Health is produced by Diamond last I knew.


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## lovemydogsalways (Mar 4, 2012)

murbanski said:


> Thank you guys for the suggestions. You are all totally right. I don't really want to buy anything from Diamond because of the recalls. It makes it all that much more complicated because I am getting a giant breed puppy that does have those specific nutritional needs that are different than a normal puppy's.
> Today I went to the pet store and read all the labels of the premium dog food, (with plenty of concerned/creeped/weirded out looks), and I found one that _seemed_ decent. It is called Holistic Select Large & Giant Breed Puppy Formula. I'm not really trying to find a puppy food, just one that has the proper fat/protein/phosphorus/calcium amounts in it. It has the appropriate levels of everything, ingredients are _decent_. It is not grain free, which I really don't like, but then again it isn't Beneful. Not outrageously expensive compared to the ingredients. I haven't heard anything about recalls, but I've never really heard of this food before.
> 
> Ingredients:
> ...


A couple members on another board I am on love, love, love Holistic Select and they have said no recalls from them.


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## Felix (Oct 9, 2012)

lovemydogsalways said:


> A couple members on another board I am on love, love, love Holistic Select and they have said no recalls from them.


Holistic Select is a product of Wellpet (wellness) but they do have their own plant and don't use Diamond, so that's a total plus


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## CorgiPaws (Mar 31, 2009)

NutriSource is a good quality, reasonably-priced, recall-free food I tend to recommend a lot based on the results I've seen from my customers. 

We will most likely be using this to wean our next litter.


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## Savage Destiny (Mar 16, 2011)

Felix said:


> Holistic Select is a product of Wellpet (wellness) but they do have their own plant and don't use Diamond, so that's a total plus


Actually, while WellPet has their own plants, they also use other manufacturer's plants as well. They were using Diamond to produce some of their foods at one point, I'm not sure now.


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## Javadoo (May 23, 2011)

CorgiPaws said:


> NutriSource is a good quality, reasonably-priced, recall-free food I tend to recommend a lot based on the results I've seen from my customers.
> 
> We will most likely be using this to wean our next litter.


My problem with Nutrisource is that every grain free formula has chicken in it.
My girls did not do well on Nutrisource.


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## losul (Oct 13, 2012)

Shamrockmommy said:


> I agree about ingredient sources. The less expensive foods are less expensive because those cheaper companies pay less for their ingredients.
> 
> HTH



Your statement leaves alot to be considered;

I have a brother-in-law that thinks the higher the cost on anything, the better the product. He's never really imporessed with something unless 1) he knows what was paid, 2)the cost was high. I used to tease him about his Bose products and especially speakers, "no highs, no lows, they must be Bose", lol. But seriously that's the way i think about Bose-at least 2X overpriced, I can do MUCH better for less than 1/2 of Bose, IMO. Anyway back to the subject now

There are also things where after reaching a certain quality, very minute increases can then cost multiples higher.

Larger companies are most times able to accept a lower profit margin. 8 to 15% might be a very acceptable overall profit margin for one turning a very large amount of product, whereas that weak a margin might absolutely bury a smaller company. Some might require a p/m of 40-60%% or even more. Likewise, a large retailer can accept a much lower p/m than a small boutique selling specialty, designer, or high end products. Also greed can definitely come into play with higher end and/or heavily hyped/advertised products with both large and small companies.

Yes, a company may also be selling product for less because they are paying less for the ingredients. Could it possibly be they are paying less because they are buying much more, have a much better network of sources, have larger/better distribution/shipping systems, and MUCH lower costs overall as a percentage of sales? Is it possible that some companies are able to get higher quality product for less than another company would have to pay for lower quality proiduct?

All I am saying is that a $70 bag of dogfood is not neccesarily better quality ingredients than a $45 bag, nor a $50 bag neccesarily better than 1 costing $30. Price tag is not neccesarily reflective of quality.


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## DaViking (Sep 27, 2011)

losul said:


> Your statement leaves alot to be considered;
> 
> I have a brother-in-law that thinks the higher the cost on anything, the better the product. He's never really imporessed with something unless 1) he knows what was paid, 2)the cost was high. I used to tease him about his Bose products and especially speakers, "no highs, no lows, they must be Bose", lol. But seriously that's the way i think about Bose-at least 2X overpriced, I can do MUCH better for less than 1/2 of Bose, IMO. Anyway back to the subject now
> 
> ...


Just wanted to +1 this.

It's a volume game and if you are unable or unwilling to play the volume game you need to focus effort and resources in a way so you still maintain a healthy bottom line. Everything have a balancing point and pretty much every product have a market. That being said, compromising on quality is always tempting if you can get away with it. Not much is cut 'n dry.


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## murbanski (Sep 25, 2012)

lovemydogsalways-You are totally right. Error on my part. My manager is like,"4Health is made exclusively for us. It's a TSC brand." Which is true...but its manufactured by Diamond.

CorgiPaws- Why don't you wean your puppies on to raw?

losul-You are completely right, I didn't even think about that. There is just so much about dog food manufacutrers that you don't know. So are you really getting a better product for the price? I mean look at Purina Pro-Plan, that stuff is like $50/30 lb. bag. It's expensive AND total crap. Just like Science Diet.


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## StellaLucyDesi (Oct 29, 2008)

While Holistic Select and Wellness are indeed merged into Wellpet, HS has always been made at their own Indiana plant. They have had no recalls. I like the food alot and they now have a new grain free, fished based, poultry free kibble that I'ved used with success. Btw, I also rotate with Fromm grain frees.


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## monster'sdad (Jul 29, 2012)

StellaLucyDesi said:


> While Holistic Select and Wellness are indeed merged into Wellpet, HS has always been made at their own Indiana plant. They have had no recalls. I like the food alot and they now have a new grain free, fished based, poultry free kibble that I'ved used with success. Btw, I also rotate with Fromm grain frees.


The Eagle Pack foods were the original Holistic Select foods and are still the best of the two.


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## Sheltielover25 (Jan 18, 2011)

Unfortunately, these mega massive million dollar companies are not producing foods with quality products they've obtained due to such huge contracts. No matter how much we wish, that's not the case. These companies are able to produce foods because they collect waste from factory-farms that can't be sold for human consumption, they collect animals who have been euthanized , and they also use dead zoo animals, and roadkill. This is how they're able to produce such "cheap food." They use genetically grown veggies/fruits that have been grown in massive amounts with chemicals and modified to withstand such extreme amounts of toxins. It's not pretty, it's rather ugly and terrifying. There's no reason to sugar coat it either. I understand people can't afford different or whatnot, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't acknowledge where we're really feeding our pets when we feed "cheap" foods.


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## murbanski (Sep 25, 2012)

I don't like Eagle Pack because one of the main ingredients is corn.


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## Liz (Sep 27, 2010)

Corgi Paws - why wean to kibble?


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## CorgiPaws (Mar 31, 2009)

Liz said:


> Corgi Paws - why wean to kibble?


The last go around, so many things were new to me, and I just didn't feel confident. 
Now, with only one of nine homes feeding PMR, and one feeding partial raw, I question if there's any benefit of doing it, only to have them make a potentially rough transition to kibble when they go home. 
I'm CERTAINLY not questioning the superiority of raw by any stretch of the imagination, and I will probably do it in the future, but for now I'm comfortable with how we;re doing things.


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## Breathing Borla (Apr 30, 2010)

murbanski said:


> I do not have my own dog yet. I live with my parents still, they have a ChowxNewf and we have had other dogs, done rescue, foster, etc. However I am doing research before I get my dog because I want to do what is best for them.
> I would rather feed my dog raw than anything else. Please no rude comments on this. And this is also not the question I am asking, so I would like your energy to be focused on the question I am going to pose, please.
> 
> What is the best natural, organic, high quality, low to grain free kibble that is from a reputable company that has no or very few recalls? Please no suggestions for Purina, Pedigree, Eukanuba, Iams, BilJac, EaglePak, etc. Even if these have worked for your dog I want to avoid them at all cost, no disrespect intended.
> Also, I will be getting a giant breed puppy (Neapolitan Mastiff).


I have had good luck with EVO and California naturals


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## Chiwawamom (Jul 5, 2012)

California Natural is now milled by P&G so I am not a fan. fromm Tunalini did not go over well with my dogs and neither did Lotus so we actually found 2-5lb bags of the original Acana Grasslands ingredients at a local chain store so we bought those up until we find a better avenue. My other option is to try once again to get my dogs adjusted to Orijen but in the past with even limiting the amount of Orijen mixed with Grasslands all 4 of my dogs still got very loose stools. I do not want to ship in any food due to last time I did that with Brothers food the bag went a complete loss because my dogs couldn't adjust to it and did not like it so I am not going that route again. Still so upset that Acana changed their ingredients!


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