# Favorite food based on ingredients/analysis



## Maxy24 (Mar 5, 2011)

If you had to pick a commercial dog food based on the ingredients and guaranteed analysis, completely ignoring the company is comes from and their reputation, what would you choose?


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## domika (Jul 15, 2012)

I would never pick based just on these items but hypothetically I would pick between horizon legacy, honest kitchen (sorry I know it's not kibble but does start dry) and timberwolf an Orijen.


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## bubba121605 (Jul 17, 2012)

I have my dogs on EVO and they do great. I also like Merrick,Canidae and TOTW.


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## Losech (Jul 10, 2012)

EVO, Nature's Variety, Orijen, Acana, Taste of the Wild, Fromm, Wellness, Merrick, Blue Buffalo, Native, Dr. Tims, etc... 
Basically almost any "5 star" food on dogfoodadvisor.com


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## DDBsR4Me (Jan 23, 2012)

Orijen, Acana or Fromm


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## kevin bradley (Aug 9, 2009)

In terms of "sexy" ingredients... Orijen kind of jumps off the page. 

I do wonder if it is a lot of window dressing but Fresh caught Walleye is kind of alluring. As is free range chicken and everything else they put in.

Admittedly, I'd like to know EXACTLY what goes into alot of foods.

You kind of have 2 buckets of research I'd like to do...

1. When we hear "Fresh Lake caught Walleye," we all picture 2 Canadian Fisherman in their 25 foot Walleye boat arriving at the Orijen Production dock by noon daily, delivering their fresh Walleye. Is this really what happens?... I fear it probably isn't. But I WOULD like to know EXACTLY what it means.

2. How much do these "sexy" ingredients really matter to our Dogs. I mean, when I see "sun cured alfalfa," my eyes get huge. What does it do for my Dog?... hell, I don't know but any company that puts that in there must love my Dog. 

Note--I'm not jabbing at Orijen. I honestly would like to get answers to the above subjects. I probably won't unless I can go undercover and actually follow the sourcing trail for all of their ingredients. 

All that being said, Champion does seem to do it right.


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## Caty M (Aug 13, 2010)

They use a LOT of fancy adjectives. Sun cured alfalfa is no different than alfalfa. But see how you think it sounds so much better?

I'd say Orijen or EVO or Horizon Legacy.


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## DaViking (Sep 27, 2011)

kevin bradley said:


> 1. When we hear "Fresh Lake caught Walleye," we all picture 2 Canadian Fisherman in their 25 foot Walleye boat arriving at the Orijen Production dock by noon daily, delivering their fresh Walleye. Is this really what happens?... I fear it probably isn't. But I WOULD like to know EXACTLY what it means.


Close, there are 3 of them. Here they are :smile: In all honesty, in a way you are actually not that far off. No own dock though, there's a third party preparing the catch before it ends up at Champion, Horizon or Nutram/Elmira. Question is, does it make a better performing dog food? 

Video; Commercial Winter Fishing - Dauphin River, MB - Canadian Council of Professional Fish Harvesters



kevin bradley said:


> 2. How much do these "sexy" ingredients really matter to our Dogs. I mean, when I see "sun cured alfalfa," my eyes get huge. What does it do for my Dog?... hell, I don't know but any company that puts that in there must love my Dog.


Here's a few links to some nutrition pdf's and an ingredient library explaining various stuff. From the nutritionists at Nutram but it applies for all brands.

Nutram Super Premium Pet Food: The Science Behind Nutram
Nutram Super Premium Pet Food: Ingredient Library
Nutram Super Premium Pet Food: Innovative Ingredients


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## PDXdogmom (Jun 30, 2010)

kevin bradley said:


> In terms of "sexy" ingredients... *Orijen* kind of jumps off the page.
> 
> I do wonder if it is a lot of window dressing but *Fresh caught Walleye is kind of alluring*. As is free range chicken and everything else they put in.
> 
> ...


I think I posted this quite a long time ago; but this link is to a newsletter of a Canadian fishing company. Scroll down to the "market update" section on the right side. It explains their exclusive contract with Champion to sell them all their "minced by-products" and that "a product was developed" to utilize them. In the past, that typically meant that fresh meats were made into a slurry to be added to the kibble production.

http://www.freshwaterfish.com/system/files/L2PNewsletter%20Winter%202011.pdf


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## monster'sdad (Jul 29, 2012)

PDXdogmom said:


> I think I posted this quite a long time ago; but this link is to a newsletter of a Canadian fishing company. Scroll down to the "market update" section on the right side. It explains their exclusive contract with Champion to sell them all their "minced by-products" and that "a product was developed" to utilize them. In the past, that typically meant that fresh meats were made into a slurry to be added to the kibble production.
> 
> http://www.freshwaterfish.com/system/files/L2PNewsletter%20Winter%202011.pdf


Fish labelling is a bit different than meats. It appears ok to use guts, bones and skin and call it "fish". Menhaden and Herring are preferable because the fish aren't stripped of the muscle meat when made into a meal. "White Fish Meal" is purely a by-product from the pollock boats that fish for the food industry.

This story tends to fly in the face of Champion's claim about ingredient quality (and small regional providers) because the company notes it used to throw this stuff away at a cost. It is good nutrition but exposes Champion for what it really is, a marketing company. You can add the US chicken meal as another indication that being truthful is not part of the Champion business plan.


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## monster'sdad (Jul 29, 2012)

Maxy24 said:


> If you had to pick a commercial dog food based on the ingredients and guaranteed analysis, completely ignoring the company is comes from and their reputation, what would you choose?


The company and its reputation, as well as the opinion of professional users, come first. There is enough wiggle room in labelling to screw the average consumer if you go by what the ingredients list says.

Your dog is an animal not a person. So while pig's blood may make the average consumer faint, trust me your dog is happy and fortunate to have it.


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## Maxy24 (Mar 5, 2011)

I'm not talking about "sexy" ingredients. I'm talking about what food you think has the best ingredients for dogs. For example, many people would consider EVO to have very good ingredients/analysis, lots of meat. But people don't recommend it because they don't trust the company that makes it. 

So I'd like to hear about more foods like that, foods with good ingredients with or without "good" (because that may be subjective) companies behind them. Many people seem to only be recommending Fromm, Earthborn, Acana, and Orijen nowadays, and I'm wondering if it's because people consider the actual products the best of the best, or if it's because they are the only companies they trust.


I'm also not trying to say a good company is not important, I'm just curious how many foods we write off because we don't trust the company.


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## Jacksons Mom (Jun 13, 2010)

I think TOTW has a pretty good ingredient list, but I wouldn't feed due to the Diamond relation.


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## Losech (Jul 10, 2012)

Maxy24 said:


> I'm not talking about "sexy" ingredients. I'm talking about what food you think has the best ingredients for dogs. For example, many people would consider EVO to have very good ingredients/analysis, lots of meat. But people don't recommend it because they don't trust the company that makes it.
> 
> So I'd like to hear about more foods like that, foods with good ingredients with or without "good" (because that may be subjective) companies behind them. Many people seem to only be recommending Fromm, Earthborn, Acana, and Orijen nowadays, and I'm wondering if it's because people consider the actual products the best of the best, or if it's because they are the only companies they trust.
> 
> I'm also not trying to say a good company is not important, I'm just curious how many foods we write off because we don't trust the company.


I feed both EVO and Taste of the Wild. Love them. Fed Taste of the Wild all through that Diamond recall without a problem. I am not a fan of Diamond, but the food works good for my dogs so there. EVO (also not a fan of P&G) I am still testing out, but I am liking it a lot so far. I don't write a food off because of a "bad" company unless they do something I really find to be quite unethical (which has got to be pretty dang bad in my books) or if my dogs don't do well on their food.
Funnily enough, I do not recommend Orijen often. Why? My dog didn't do well on it, simple as that. Same with Wellness, but plenty of other people have dogs that do great on those foods. I mention that when I recommend foods, and if the person is concerned about a company, I'll tell them what I know about it. 

But for me, the bottom line is: Does the dog do well on the food, and can I afford it? I do prefer to support a good company, but if my dog does better on X product over Y, and X is easily more affordable then Y, I'm gonna go with X even if I don't like that company so well.


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## monster'sdad (Jul 29, 2012)

Maxy24 said:


> I'm not talking about "sexy" ingredients. I'm talking about what food you think has the best ingredients for dogs. For example, many people would consider EVO to have very good ingredients/analysis, lots of meat. But people don't recommend it because they don't trust the company that makes it.
> 
> So I'd like to hear about more foods like that, foods with good ingredients with or without "good" (because that may be subjective) companies behind them. Many people seem to only be recommending Fromm, Earthborn, Acana, and Orijen nowadays, and I'm wondering if it's because people consider the actual products the best of the best, or if it's because they are the only companies they trust.
> 
> ...


People not trusting Nestle (Pro Plan), Proctor & Gamble (Eukanuba & Natura) and Mars (Royal Canin) is without merit so yes good foods are written off. 

Of the 4 foods you mentioned, one company that makes two of them has had quality problems, makes mistatements about ingredients and was actually sold and never made an announcement, all of which are rationalized away. The other two companies do have good safety records but load their foods up with all kinds of pea-based ingredients including concentrated Pea Protein and this too is rationalized away.

I think they consider them good products because the marketing is very effective, and once some people make a decision they find it hard to accept facts. This is called "cognitive dissonance."

Why criticize Purina for using Corn Gluten while Eartborn and Fromm use Pea Protein. And why criticize Eukanuba for using by-products while Champion does the same? And why criticize any of the majors for recalls while Champion has had them too? And why write-off Evo because Natura was sold to P&G? Champion was sold to a private equity fund. People recommend Nutrisource but that food is made by a candy company. So why is that ok but P&G, Nestle & Mars not ok?

It is all in the marketing.


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## SaharaNight Boxers (Jun 28, 2011)

monster'sdad said:


> People not trusting Nestle (Pro Plan), Proctor & Gamble (Eukanuba & Natura) and Mars (Royal Canin) is without merit so yes good foods are written off.
> 
> Of the 4 foods you mentioned, one company that makes two of them has had quality problems, makes mistatements about ingredients and was actually sold and never made an announcement, all of which are rationalized away. The other two companies do have good safety records but load their foods up with all kinds of pea-based ingredients including concentrated Pea Protein and this too is rationalized away.
> 
> ...


It really isn't in the marketing. And if you really want to talk marketing why do you blast Champion, but sing the praised of Dr. Tim's? That seems like marketing. 

Champion has had one, maybe two recalls. That's a fantastic record for kibble. 

Fromm and Earthborn are r rally not loaded with pea protein. Yes, they have peas, but not straight protein. Plus they're sat least the third ingredient. 

Why on earth would you not criticize corn gluten? It's the lowest corn ingredient possible to use. It has aflatoxin it it which caused liver problems. The food is corn and flour in a bag. 

I actually found a page about Evo and a problem they had while researching them. The kibble had hairs in it that weren't the named meat hairs. That turned me off. If I can find it I'll link to it. 

I have no problem that nutrisource is made by a candy company. I just don't like the ingredients. 

For me it's all in the ingredients and the company's reputation.


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## monster'sdad (Jul 29, 2012)

SaharaNight Boxers said:


> It really isn't in the marketing. And if you really want to talk marketing why do you blast Champion, but sing the praised of Dr. Tim's? That seems like marketing.
> 
> Champion has had one, maybe two recalls. That's a fantastic record for kibble.
> 
> ...


You are totally wrong about the impact of Pea Protein on total protein. Even if the product is just 15% of weight it can represent half the total protein in the food. If Pea Protein is 90% protein just multiply it by 15% and you get the final amount or protein.

Please look at Earthborn and Fromm again. You are 100% wrong. They contain both peas, pea flour and manufactured Pea Protein. Look before your post. Every Fromm GF has it except the "tuna" but what Fromm does is position lots of useless wet ingredients ahead to push it down. Every Earthborn except Primitive has it as well.

Pea Protein and Corn Gluten are the same class of ingredient but many perceive it as healthier.


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## InkedMarie (Sep 9, 2011)

I pick Champion foods and as someone else said, The Honest Kitchen (mostly Zeal and love) and while I'm new to it, so far I'm happy with how my dogs are doing on Brothers.


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## Roo (Oct 17, 2010)

> People not trusting Nestle (Pro Plan), Proctor & Gamble (Eukanuba & Natura) and Mars (Royal Canin) is without merit so yes good foods are written off.


Hills, Nestle Purina, and Royal Canin all got in trouble and fined for price fixing in France. Nestle makes the Waggin Train chicken jerky treats that have injured and killed more pets than any of the other supposedly tainted jerky treats according to the Marketplace investigative news report "Fighting for Fido" and are still being currently made and sold. Purina has 487 consumer complaints on the consumer affairs website for making pets ill and mold/bugs found in their products and P&G has 323 complaints on the same website for their Iams products. I did not see similar consumer complaints for foods like Champion, Dr. Tims, Earthborn, etc. 

Dog biscuit firms fined for price fixing - The Connexion
Fighting For Fido - Marketplace
487 Complaints and Reviews about Purina Pet Foods
323 Complaints and Reviews about Iams Pet Foods
139 Complaints and Reviews about Waggin Train Treats

Beyond ingredients and recalls, I could kind of see why some people might not feel like trusting these companies.


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## DaViking (Sep 27, 2011)

SaharaNight Boxers said:


> Why on earth would you not criticize corn gluten? It's the lowest corn ingredient possible to use. It has aflatoxin it it which caused liver problems.


What have aflatoxins in it? Corn gluten? I think you need to re-study this. Any bulk/whole carbohydrate can contain mycotoxins, not limited to corn products. I have said it many times before, when looking at ingredient integrity (safety), with one exception, the big brands are lightyears ahead of many other smaller manufacturers. R-C's fingerprinting is one example of this.

Yeah, I find it odd too that some demonize immediately they see a product with corn gluten meal but say very little when talking about brands or formulas who uses pea protein heavily.


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## kevin bradley (Aug 9, 2009)

Monster, you seriously think Eukanuba and ProPlan are good foods? 

Seriously, I want a direct answer. Yes or No.


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## Jacksons Mom (Jun 13, 2010)

Roo said:


> Hills, Nestle Purina, and Royal Canin all got in trouble and fined for price fixing in France. Nestle makes the Waggin Train chicken jerky treats that have injured and killed more pets than any of the other supposedly tainted jerky treats according to the Marketplace investigative news report "Fighting for Fido" and are still being currently made and sold. Purina has 487 consumer complaints on the consumer affairs website for making pets ill and mold/bugs found in their products and P&G has 323 complaints on the same website for their Iams products. I did not see similar consumer complaints for foods like Champion, Dr. Tims, Earthborn, etc.
> 
> Dog biscuit firms fined for price fixing - The Connexion
> Fighting For Fido - Marketplace
> ...


To be fair, of course these foods are going to have a lot more complaints... a lot more people feed them. I would guess that 80% of the population feeds their dogs stuff like Eukanuba, Purina, etc. So naturally there will be more complaints than a smaller company.


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## Sheltielover25 (Jan 18, 2011)

monster'sdad said:


> People not trusting Nestle (Pro Plan), Proctor & Gamble (Eukanuba & Natura) and Mars (Royal Canin) is without merit so yes good foods are written off.
> 
> Of the 4 foods you mentioned, one company that makes two of them has had quality problems, makes mistatements about ingredients and was actually sold and never made an announcement, all of which are rationalized away. The other two companies do have good safety records but load their foods up with all kinds of pea-based ingredients including concentrated Pea Protein and this too is rationalized away.
> 
> ...


You know, I have to agree. I started to reply about how I would avoid anything corn as it's almost all GMO in this country and I don't think any animal/or human should be fed a crop that's genetically modified to withstand high levels of toxins. But then I looked at pea protein, and unless it says organic (which Fromm doesn't) it's GMO, too! So, you have a good point, neither one are species appropriate and both of them are genetically modified crops. Sigh...


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