# Nip Nip, light bite, more light biting.. bites that leave marks...



## bridget246

I'm having 3 really big problems with my German Shepherd (working class). She is 6 months old. 

1) She bites when I put the lease on her. She bites when I ignore her and I tried ignoring that and she just bites me harder till I finally take notice and punish her for it. She goes off when I tell her no to something that she is enjoying, almost as if she wants to overpower me to get it despite the fact that this only gets her in more trouble. 

2) Trash, she digs in my trash. If I tell her to leave it she will leave it but when and if I turn my back she will jump back in again. She also goes counter and table surfing. I tried to keep the rewards down as far as possible by leaving my counter and table clear. She has even figured out how to open my cabinets. She knows she isn't allowed on tables,trash,counter, and in cabinets. If she hears me coming she will jump off and play innocent. I have to sneak into the kitchen to catch her. 

3) Bathroom upstairs. We stopped the bathroom from happening downstairs but she still thinks that going upstairs makes it alright to use it. She'll go as far as to eat it or hide it by covering it up with something for me to find later. Words can't express how much I hate this. I've stopped her from going upstairs by blocking it off and recalling her whenever she heads that direction. No block and she will run up and ignore my words as if going upstairs means I no longer have any control over her. I hate blocking the steps as this limits my freedom in the house as well because I have to keep removing it and rebuild it. I don't understand why I lose all control the second she hits the stairs. She will stop fighting the block the instant I ask her to even if I'm no where near her.


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## catahoulamom

I can't give you much training advice, but does this dog have a job? Do you do any structured activities with her outside of the house? Search & rescue, agility, even obedience class (I don't know if she's old enough for agility or S&R)? It sounds like she is DYING for a job to do... she is a working class shepherd after all. Seems to me she is bored and not stimulated enough, but that's just from the information you provided.


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## magicre

just my personal opinion, and i am not a trainer....

i think you need to contact a trainer in your area for hands on sessions....


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## Tobi

bridget246 said:


> I'm having 3 really big problems with my German Shepherd (working class). She is 6 months old.
> 
> 1) She bites when I put the lease on her. She bites when I ignore her and I tried ignoring that and she just bites me harder till I finally take notice and punish her for it. She goes off when I tell her no to something that she is enjoying, almost as if she wants to overpower me to get it despite the fact that this only gets her in more trouble.


Mine used to do much of this, and it was more or less because we were letting it happen, we were feeding it with attention of any kind. When he puts his mouth on me now i ignore him completely, sometimes we will get extinction reactions from him... some nipping at my heals and things like that... it's not happened in a long time though, and completely ignoring his negative actions have worked very well for us and his mouthyness.




bridget246 said:


> 2) Trash, she digs in my trash. If I tell her to leave it she will leave it but when and if I turn my back she will jump back in again. She also goes counter and table surfing. I tried to keep the rewards down as far as possible by leaving my counter and table clear. She has even figured out how to open my cabinets. She knows she isn't allowed on tables,trash,counter, and in cabinets. If she hears me coming she will jump off and play innocent. I have to sneak into the kitchen to catch her.


Don't leave the temptation there, you are allowing it to happen by leaving the temptation open to her. you can A. Hide the trash can, or B. get a heavy duty one that is going to keep her out of it. install some child locks on the cabinets to keep her out of it. they are cheap and can be found a home depot or lowes.



bridget246 said:


> 3) Bathroom upstairs. We stopped the bathroom from happening downstairs but she still thinks that going upstairs makes it alright to use it. She'll go as far as to eat it or hide it by covering it up with something for me to find later. Words can't express how much I hate this. I've stopped her from going upstairs by blocking it off and recalling her whenever she heads that direction. No block and she will run up and ignore my words as if going upstairs means I no longer have any control over her. I hate blocking the steps as this limits my freedom in the house as well because I have to keep removing it and rebuild it. I don't understand why I lose all control the second she hits the stairs. She will stop fighting the block the instant I ask her to even if I'm no where near her.


An accident in your house is only your fault to be completely honest... if you're not taking a 6 month puppy out every hour or so you're setting your dog up for failure. We still take our 7-8 month old foster out every 2 hours just to be sure, we haven't had an accident in the last 2 weeks now. Tobi hasn't had an accident since he was a baby because we made it such a fun thing to go out and go potty, he gets the biggest reward even to this day. 


*how much exercise and activity is this dog getting daily? 
are you meeting her needs as a working breed dog? *

because it doesn't sound like you are. I have owned, and do own a working breed dog, and i know first hand how horrible they can be if they aren't physically and mentally challenged.


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## catahoulamom

I agree with Re (magicre), especially since she is very mouthy and nippy, I would contact a local professional positive-reinforcement based trainer, because in a few months she will be much bigger, and a mouthy 80lb german shepherd is a liability, even if she isn't aggressive. I'd find a trainer that works with dogs in some kind of sport, whether it be obedience rally or something. Like I said, this girl needs a job!

Edit: didn't see David's post at first, great advice!


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## jenv101

Ditto to all of the above. Welcome to the world of a working line puppy!  I would also advise not leaving her with free roam of the house, set her up in an Ex Pen or crate for when you cannot keep an eye on her, or tether her to you so she can't go getting into trouble. 

You can also buy some child proofing things for your cupboards and trash, and block off access to upstairs.


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## bridget246

I figured as much. I can't really afford a good one. I paid petsmart. All that did was waste my money. The trainer did show us a few more advance tricks that weren't part of class since my dog knew 80% of what they had to offer and now 100% of what they have in the intermediate class. The trainer who told me I had a working class dog also informed that I wouldn't be able to train her on my own with my experience. However, he wanted 2,000 dollars from me. 

Jobs, what sort of job can I have her do? I didn't know I was buying a working class dog. I thought she was going to be like my other german shepards I had growing up, though I now realize they were all herding. 

I have toys for her. She doesn't really like toys. If it doesn't break or have food then it is boring. I brought a hallow bone and made a treat for her with pumpkin and her dog food. I have it compacted and frozen so she doesn't actually eat very much of it and seems to enjoy it for awhile. A 12 in bully stick last about 20 minutes so it isn't worth the cost. 

Finally, I have a food toy that is shaped like a mushroom. I put a half a cup of food in it and 2 balls. She knows all to well how to get the food out and seems to enjoy using it. I don't want to give her all her food in that because I'm afraid of bloat. So the bulk of her food comes from me holding it and telling her when she can eat and when she has to stop for breaks. I keep hoping that this would give me more discipline over her with other things but it only seemed to apply to food and I think that is only because she knows she is going to get it back so she is willing to wait.



jenv101 said:


> Ditto to all of the above. Welcome to the world of a working line puppy!  * I would also advise not leaving her with free roam of the house, set her up in an Ex Pen or crate for when you cannot keep an eye on her, or tether her to you so she can't go getting into trouble. *
> 
> You can also buy some child proofing things for your cupboards and trash, and block off access to upstairs.


I love the suggestion. I just don't know how that will teach her not to do things like go counter surfing. At some point I would like her to get free roam of the house when I'm not home. I know I'm far from that point but I'm trying to work towards it.


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## magicre

catahoulamom said:


> I agree with Re (magicre), especially since she is very mouthy and nippy, I would contact a local professional positive-reinforcement based trainer, because in a few months she will be much bigger, and a mouthy 80lb german shepherd is a liability, even if she isn't aggressive. I'd find a trainer that works with dogs in some kind of sport, whether it be obedience rally or something. Like I said, this girl needs a job!
> 
> Edit: didn't see David's post at first, great advice!


are you saying i'm mouthy and nippy LOL

i know you're not, but read what you wrote.....made me laugh....

to the OP....if you can't afford a trainer, then tire this dog out.....put a back pack on him and get a four wheeled wagon and let him pull you....or take him running....if you run.

but this dog has way too much energy and needs it worked out.....david (tobi) gave you good advice...

p.s....i had a trainer for my pug for things i couldn't do.....2000.00? really? are there other trainers in the area?


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## maplewood

THIS DOG NEEDS A JOB!!!

Are there any training clubs in your area? Unless you want her to do something like Schutzhund, training a job need not be expensive. 

Go to JandJ dog supplies or DogWorks websites, you'll find countless inexpensive books that will tell you "how too" train certain things. She's old enough to use her nose _"Fun Nosework for dog" Roy Hunter_. Trieball, advanced obedience, and ground work for agility are things she could be learning( I wouldn't recomend having her do agility jumps, because of te risk of injury) As she gets older, she can do agility jumps, carting, Search and rescue work (even if she isn't certified, tracking is fun and good excersize) ect ect ...

How much excersize is she getting during the day? Is she getting mixed signals from other people in the household?


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## xellil

She should be confined until you can trust her in the house. Will she go over a baby gate?

I don't like either of my dogs going upstairs because of various health problems, so I just put a baby gate at the bottom. It's not attached to anything. but I know not all dogs would stop at that kind of very mild barrier.

Also, you shouldn't let her in the kitchen unless you are in there with her for sure. She sounds like she needs a little structure, and a lot of mental stimulation!

I am not crazy about PetSmart. I think they have very poor trainers. And often they are more expensive than a "real" trainer.

our humane society offers training at a reasonable price. We found a very good trainer that does 8 weeks of novice training for $99 and got excellent results.

Edited to add: I dont' mean confined to a cage. Confined to where you are, or to a particular area where you don't have problems with her.


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## Tobi

maplewood said:


> THIS DOG NEEDS A JOB!!


EXACTLY this!!!

having owned some working dogs, and even working with them from when i was a kid, i can give you a few ways to tire her out.

Running, walking, biking... not while she is young mind you... short sprints, and walking is fine... running next to a bike is not going to be okay until she is a little older, about 16-18 months.

Spring pole, Flirt pole. 

a spring pole is just that, a rope attached to a spring that is hung from a tree or higher strong object, it encourages pulling and tugging, and saves your arm, it's fantastic exercise and work for the dog. here is an example of what i made for mine, and how it's effectively used. http://dogfoodchat.com/forum/general-dog-discussion/8494-new-spring-pole.html

A flirt pole is essentially a larger version of the little ones that you play with a cat with. you can buy a lunge whip from amazon for about 8 bucks, and you just tie a good flirt on the end of it, you can use leather, or a favorite stuffingless toy that will encourage her to chase it through the yard, this is one of the easiest for people hardest for dogs workouts you can do.

Harness.. you can get a pulling harness as well or find a used one that will fit her until she is older, but you can take her for walks with a harness on without any weight attached to it to make sure she is completely used to it, so that when she is 18-24 months old you can add weight to it, or even chains or a tire behind it when you take her for a walk it will tire her out substantially more, it's a fantastic workout and many weight pullers use methods like this to exercise their dogs with less effort from the human.
of course you start small with just a harness and then add a small can full of pennies for noise and graduate from there up to 100+lbs... but that takes the dog being older 18-24 months.

mind games are great for the dogs as well, crate games, its yer choice.

Clicker training seems to work pretty darn well with working breeds as well.
She is food motivated so that is something that you need to put to good use for everything... food motivated dogs are so much easier to train imo than any other motivation. when taking her out to potty jackpot her with food, 20 tiny treats in rapid succession. she'll get the hint eventually as long as you stay true to it.


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## bridget246

Tobi said:


> Mine used to do much of this, and it was more or less because we were letting it happen, we were feeding it with attention of any kind. When he puts his mouth on me now i ignore him completely, sometimes we will get extinction reactions from him... some nipping at my heals and things like that... it's not happened in a long time though, and completely ignoring his negative actions have worked very well for us and his mouthyness.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Don't leave the temptation there, you are allowing it to happen by leaving the temptation open to her. you can A. Hide the trash can, or B. get a heavy duty one that is going to keep her out of it. install some child locks on the cabinets to keep her out of it. they are cheap and can be found a home depot or lowes.
> 
> I will try this again. I'm hoping she doesn't do like she normally does and just keep biting harder. I stopped playing tug of war a long time ago because of this biting problem and it isn't coming back any time soon
> 
> An accident in your house is only your fault to be completely honest... if you're not taking a 6 month puppy out every hour or so you're setting your dog up for failure. We still take our 7-8 month old foster out every 2 hours just to be sure, we haven't had an accident in the last 2 weeks now. Tobi hasn't had an accident since he was a baby because we made it such a fun thing to go out and go potty, he gets the biggest reward even to this day.
> 
> I think anything my dog does is my fault. Still, correcting it is hard and running out of real ideas. Like why can't she think of the upstairs the same way she does with the downstairs. She will sit downstairs for hours without any problems and when she needs to go out she'll jump on the door and let me know. But she has went upstairs right after going outside and managed to still pee a little because she apparently thinks upstairs=bathroom.
> 
> *how much exercise and activity is this dog getting daily?
> are you meeting her needs as a working breed dog? *
> 
> A mile or two a day. And I believe I am... at least from what I read in various places is that we are excelling. However, I noticed that when she is wore out she'll try to resist sleeping and gets really grumpy. I have to force her into a down and tell her to stay and she'll fall asleep in after a few minutes.
> 
> because it doesn't sound like you are. I have owned, and do own a working breed dog, and i know first hand how horrible they can be if they aren't physically and mentally challenged.


I try to challenge her mentally with tricks and teaching her new ones and the mushroom food bowl.

BTW, off topic but I would have replied to you much faster if I had known your reply was here. Sorry, I didn't see it before.


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## maplewood

> I stopped playing tug of war a long time ago because of this biting problem and it isn't coming back any time soon


Tug-of-war can actually be useful in teaching a dog bite-inhabition and to control his mouth.


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## catahoulamom

magicre said:


> are you saying i'm mouthy and nippy LOL
> 
> i know you're not, but read what you wrote.....made me laugh....





> I agree with Re (magicre), especially since she is very mouthy and nippy,


LOL! :tongue1:


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## bridget246

maplewood said:


> Tug-of-war can actually be useful in teaching a dog bite-inhabition and to control his mouth.


I would love to know more about this if your willing to share.


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## jenv101

You should be able to find a half decent obedience class for much less than $2000! If not, then buy some books, do some research, there are some good youtube lessons, clicker training is great. Mental challenges are important as a lot of dogs at this age do not tire out with just physical activity. 

kikopup's Channel - YouTube

I know you'd like her to be able to be free in the house on her own, but at this age, its not possible. Either they mature after a few years and don't care to get into trouble, or they don't. There is no way you can train something like that for when you're not home, because the behavior itself is self rewarding. Some dogs might not grow out of it, and you will simply have to keep them crated when you are not home. At least those are my thoughts, but others might have suggestions on this.

If she loved playing tug, but was too rough, I'd suggest finding some heavy duty gloves to protect your hands, and get back to tugging. The tug can be used as a reward in place of food if you are worried you are feeding her too much. Teaching fetch is easier with a tug as well, as they get a fun game when they bring it back.


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## chowder

It would be hard to believe now, but Rocky was an extremely active pup because he is half husky. We would have to wear him out every evening before we could even sit down to watch tv. Some things that worked great with him and were FREE or really cheap:

1. Bucket play in the yard - get a plastic bucket like the kind you buy plants in at Home Depot. Put a big nylon rope through the hole in one end (also can be found cheap and sold by the foot at Home Depot). Tie a knot in one end. Make it about 3 -4 feet long and tie another knot in it. Let dog fling it all over yard, wear the bucket on his head, chew the bucket, drag it around, tug at it with him, and in general get worn out. Great fun to watch!! Rocky still likes his bucket toy!

2. Yard agility toys - set up obstacles in your yard - get two concrete blocks, put a broom handle over them, teach the 'jump' command. Then set up a small obstacle course with cones or lawn furniture or whatever you have and teach dog to weave around them. Use a small platform or a tree trunk and teach the 'table' command and have dog hop onto it and 'stay'. You can set up a very imaginative agility course in your own backyard with anything you can find and wear both yourself and the dog out every day. The dog loves to learn it. We used a tarp slung over a rope as a 'tunnel' and Rocky would run through it. It doesn't have to look like a real agility course because the dog doesn't know the difference. He's just having fun and keeping his mind busy.

3. Food toys - we have a football that holds biscuits. Rocky has to roll it around the house and try and get the biscuits out. There are lots of them out there. He figured that one out pretty easily and learned to stand in on end and shake it, so he needs a tougher one now. 

4. GLOVES! - I learned this one from a husky owner about the biting because Rocky used to be a mouther. We have a pair of heavy work gloves. The ONLY time that Rocky can play rough and bite us in when we are wearing the heavy gloves. Then we wrestle around the floor at full tilt. The minute the gloves come off, he can no longer bite us. He learned it really quick and he got to the point where he would go over to the shelf and poke the gloves with his nose and stare at us when he wanted to play. It really saves your hands. 

Our trainer taught us the a dog with a tired MIND will be a tired dog and it is true. After an hour of agility or training on something new, my dogs will be totally worn out. It doesn't even have to be strenuous activity. So, keep your dog's mind busy every day, in addition to his normal exercise.


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## maplewood

bridget246 said:


> I would love to know more about this if your willing to share.


Donaldson explains tug-of-war in _The Culture Clash_ I like Chris Bach's way a little better though. The real difference between the two is Bach uses a tether.

1:Tether her to anything that is strong enough to hold her. For larger dogs I like a 10 foot long line, but you can use a 6 ft leash if that's what you have.
2: engage her in tug. When I do this is use the verbal cue "tug" when the dog is actually pulling on whatever I'm using, this comes in handy later on if you want to teach her to open something.
_You should be just inside the line, don't get close to whatever you have her tethered to at tis point_
3: When she nips/bites yelp, screetch or say owe and retreat with the tug toy. Do NOT make eye contact, punish in anyway or say anything other than the initial yelp. Retreat and turn your back on her. She's tethered so she can't follow you, by removing yourself and the game and you are ending the fun which is punishment enough.

If she barks or whines to continue wait untill she sit's calmy on her own (remember you're not talking to her, don't tell her to sit) praise her and continue the tug game. You may have to start off with the harder/hardest bites and work your way up to nips. While she's tugging rub you other hand all over her. I allow growling, but if it bothers you it may be something to work towards. Stop the game before she loses interest. In the begining if you have 30 seconds of good tugging without any bites and later on nips it may be enough. Leave her wanting to continue to play.

Get Jean Donaldson's book. I also recomend anything by Patricia McConnell and Pat Miller is another I love. I'm really not good at writing instuctions


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## CavePaws

Leash on and attached to your belt when in the house.
LOTS of exercise a day. Split it up as much as you can...Walking on hard surfaces for a long time will impact her growth plates.
Walk outside when the nipping begins. Say a firm leave it.
Or redirrect onto a tug toy when the nipping begins. Ask for a sit first or a down, something that is incompatible with nipping you.


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## bernadettelevis

Counter surfin: To be honest, the only way i could stop my Weimaraner from counter surfing while i'm not at home,was to NOT leave anything edible out EVER. He has had free roam in the house from the beginning and he never destroyed anything, but if i forget to put something edible away, he will find and eat it. 

For everything else,give her a job. Work her. Working dogs can be a pain in the a** if they have nothing to do. If you cannot afford a trainer, watch for example kikopups channel as someone already suggested, read books, find web pages. 

There is so much you can do with your dog:

-tracking and in general using her nose, e.g.: tach her to find your key and bring it to you. At first you can hide it in the house and if she manages that go outside...

-name her toys. Teach her names of toys and tell her to bring them to you e.g.: you put all the toys on the floor, tell her to bring you the ball. next she should bring you your tug toy or whatever

-start some agility like weavepoling or the see saw.

-fill kong toys with meat or whatever and freeze them. The XL black Kongs take my dog almost 45min. to finish if frozen.

-basic obedience

-hide and seek games someone holds her and you go hide, then she must find you. Or you hide a toy. You could also hide her food so she has to find it before she can eat it.

-different tricks there are cheap book who explain how to teach more than 100 different tricks

and so on..... there is so much you can do with your dog just be creative...


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## maplewood

maplewood said:


> THIS DOG NEEDS A JOB!!!
> 
> Are there any training clubs in your area? Unless you want her to do something like Schutzhund, training a job need not be expensive.
> 
> Go to JandJ dog supplies or DogWorks websites, you'll find countless inexpensive books that will tell you "how too" train certain things. She's old enough to use her nose _"Fun Nosework for dog" Roy Hunter_. Trieball, advanced obedience, and ground work for agility are things she could be learning( I wouldn't recomend having her do agility jumps, because of te risk of injury) As she gets older, she can do agility jumps, carting, Search and rescue work (even if she isn't certified, tracking is fun and good excersize) ect ect ...
> 
> How much excersize is she getting during the day? Is she getting mixed signals from other people in the household?


I meant dog wise not dog works DOH!!


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## bridget246

maplewood said:


> I meant dog wise not dog works DOH!!


I know you didn't mean actually work.

I figured as much. I found a place that has a club. We have to go through the 8 week training first which is only 85 and then after that she can join the club for 100 dollars a year. Sounds very reasonable. Thinking of actually doing it and I couldn't really find any other clubs. 

I would love to wrestle and fight with my dog. Maybe I'll get the gloves. I held back the urge of doing it all this time because everyone kept telling me not. So I didn't. I even mentioned the glove or cloth thing to others as I did this as a kid growing up and every trainer I've asked about this still told me no it wouldn't work. 

I'm amazed at all the response I'm getting in less than 24 hours. Good responses to. Going to have to sit down later with my girl friend and we will pick some things out of this thread to try out. I really love all the ideas everyone is sharing for free.


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## maplewood

bridget246 said:


> I know you didn't mean actually work.
> 
> I figured as much. I found a place that has a club. We have to go through the 8 week training first which is only 85 and then after that she can join the club for 100 dollars a year. Sounds very reasonable. Thinking of actually doing it and I couldn't really find any other clubs.
> 
> I would love to wrestle and fight with my dog. Maybe I'll get the gloves. I held back the urge of doing it all this time because everyone kept telling me not. So I didn't. I even mentioned the glove or cloth thing to others as I did this as a kid growing up and every trainer I've asked about this still told me no it wouldn't work.
> 
> I'm amazed at all the response I'm getting in less than 24 hours. Good responses to. Going to have to sit down later with my girl friend and we will pick some things out of this thread to try out. I really love all the ideas everyone is sharing for free.


Dog works is actually a carting website. So I actually just got confused.
I'd be happy to send you a bill *wink* I don't wrestle with my dogs for several reasons, but we love tug-of-war! and yeah there are a lot of good "free" training tips here.


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## Maxy24

I agree that you reprimanding her for biting is giving her what she wants. It's attention, she'll take it. If ignoring her causes things to get worse (it's likely an extinction burst, it means the method is working...the dog realizes what he's doing is failing but this is frustrating him so he's going to try harder before finally giving up...but biting can be dangerous so it might not be safe to allow the extinction burst to happen) I find it better to say ouch and leave. Go into another room leaving the dog behind. Don't look at him or talk to him, just the ouch and removal of self. This will prevent him from taking his frustration out on you. THEN when you come back out, don't hold a grudge. Go and offer him a toy.


Easily bored dogs NEED to learn how to self entertain, our dog had a super hard problem with this (if we didn't entertain him he'd start wandering around the house aimlessly and eventually start stealing things). As long as the dog is getting adequate exercise and mental stimulation he doesn't need you to entertain him all the time. This involves a leash to prevent him from getting into trouble and toys he can use himself. I like to always have antlers/bully sticks/Himalayan chews/other slowly edible toys around so that the dog can choose to lay down and chew. Also rotate your toys so that he gets renewed interest (have some stuffies and some rubber toys in each rotation). 


For meals I like to use food dispensing toys. I use a kong genius toy, it takes a lot longer than treat balls and can hold both wet and dry food (we mix). So can regular kongs but they don't hold the same quantity. 


As for the housebreaking issue, it sounds like he doesn't realize upstairs counts as his house. So I would continue blocking off the stairs when you can't go up with the dog, but also try to take the dog up on leash or under CLOSE supervision every day so the dog gets familiarized with the area and understand it's just another part of the same house...same rules apply.


Any sort of stealing is really hard. preventing it may decrease the strong desire but once you start putting stuff out again it's likely the dog will give it a try and realize it's still fun. So my recommendations are to prevent it to break the habit, this will make further training work better as the frequency of times the dog tries to steal will decrease. And then once the habit appears to be broken (dogs never searches for things to steal by looking on counters or sniffing over where the trash usually is) you can start setting her up. This is one behavior where I think positive punishment is really much more effective than anything else. I used a squirt bottle with Tucker. It's IMPERATIVE when using punishment like this that the dog NEVER gets away with it. The punishment is not painful or terribly scary so it's not enough that the dog will have it happen a few times and stop forever. If the dog is able to steal sometimes and get squirted other time, he'll likely decide the risk of getting squirted is worth it if it means he can sometimes steal the item. However if EVERY TIME he goes to steal something he gets squirted and does not get the item, he'll likely give up, it's just not worth the unpleasant squirt, there's no benefit. After you squirt the dog remove the item he was going for until another session. You don't want the dog to repeatedly go after the item, a big factor in the squirts effectiveness is the shock factor. If the dog can prepare for it and go for a second grab he might just power through. Do not warn the dog before squirting (don't say leave it or no) as this will teach the dog he only has to leave items you specifically tell him to leave be. So then he will start looking testing items, approach them to see if you say anything, and if you don't he knows he's safe and can grab it. If you don't give warning he's not really sure if you are noticing him and isn't going to risk it. Also remember that set ups don't have to look like set ups. If I am sitting in the living room I likely am setting him up. Whenever I walk in I take a few items that are put up on the entertainment center and toss them on the coffee table (it's where he steals from). I then sit on the couch and watch TV or go on my laptop with the bottle beside me. If he goes for something he gets squirted and the items removed and I go back to what I was doing. Yes, the dog only gets squirted while you're in the room (though you could set him up and hide we didn't have to with Tucker) but because stuff is only available when you are in the room he may not realize this as these are the only times he will even TRY to steal.

Again, for this to work well you MUST keep the place completely clear of anything he might steal until you are doing a "set up". Every attempt to steal must end in failure for the dog. I also start squirting the dog for searching the table (putting paws on it...or head for a large dog) as I think having the whole thing off limits makes it more clear to the dog what he can't do. That way he doesn't have to think about well I get squirted for stealing pens but what about napkins? Instead it becomes I get squirted for touching the top of the table. Make sure after the squirt you don't make eye contact with the dog or do anything social really, you don't really want to be involved in the squirting, any sort of engaging with the dog will let him know you had something to do with it. Just watch him start to go for the object out of the corner of your eye, quickly squirt him, when he backs away nonchalantly get up and clear the items, then go sit back down. I know this requires a lot of diligence but it will be worth it in the long term. I know everyone does not agree with the use of squirt bottles. I for instance do not like using them on cats because they seem to really scare them. With my dog is seemed more like a human would react when getting squirted, they pinch up their face (I squirt the dog in the facial area) and would like it to stop but don't really have a fear response...I don't think it triggers the hormones that someone running at them while yelling and stomping their feet would. It's not really scary and not painful, just uncomfortable (unless she is really sensitive in which case I'd want to find another method).


One more note on that...do not use the squirt bottle for ANYthing else. I know when I decided to introduce it into our house my family members wanted to use it for nipping and cat chasing. Over using the squirt bottle can result in the dog learning to ignore it. So stealing ONLY.

As for the trash, I'd honestly just get a trash with a lid. You can do all sorts of training but I really don't see the point given how easy and non-intrusive a change in trash can is. With table stealing keeping everything up and out of reach 24/7 is inconvenient and unrealistic in a house with many people which is why I am willing to use the squirt bottle. Having a new trash can is not inconvenient or difficult.


ETA: As for tug, once you get the biting a little better under control I would start using it again to teach the dog that even when he's excited the no bite rule still applies. I lot of dogs will learn not to bite until they get revved up (like in tug) and people go and blame the game for causing biting. Instead it's just a lack of control on the dog's part and you can instill control in these situations just like you did in calm situations. If he bites you end the game and remove all social interaction for a little bit. Then try again. I like the method that someone posted about tethering the dog when he's learning not to bite during play. It will allow the removal of attention to be much quicker. A marker (like ouch!) can be used as soon as the dog hits your skin to make sure he knows exactly when things went wrong.

I wish you luck! I hated having a puppy and will likely never do it again (although if I'm on my own it'd be easier...having 5 people in a house makes the environment hard to control), but eventually things get better, just stick with it.


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## bridget246

Alright, new plan. 

When the dog bites I'm going to go in the bathroom instead of putting the dog in the bathroom. I finally understand that is why the dog sometimes gets very angry when I go into the bathroom. Maybe that will work better. First I had tried saying ouch and putting her in the bathroom. This kind of worked when were near a bathroom. But when I would go outside or be away from a bathroom she would bite again. So then I started to hold her mouth shut, not too tightly but enough that she can't bite me and holding her down. This calms her down that instance but she'll start back up again soon. I noticed that she is also getting better at seeing this coming and getting out of the way of my grabs to the point of turning it into the bite and chase game. Though now I'm much better at catching her so that game isn't so fun anymore and yet she still bites. After all of this I suppose I am willing to try going into the bathroom and knowing her she's going to run around the house until she finds something to reward herself with.

I'll get one of my water guns out and arm it for spraying and a new trash can. I have a can of coins. I just got a can of coins. Every single time I go to use it she stops what she is doing. Why? I haven't even used it once yet so she couldn't possible be afraid of it. I'm not 100% sure if water is going to work. I sprayed her with the hose from the sink and she tried drinking it and got closer to it.

Edit: The trainer sounds good. They allowed me to come and watch a class tomorrow. It will be 85 for 8 weeks of training and then 100 dollars to join the club for a year after the 8 weeks. In the club I can take all the classes I want for free. They teach a ton of tricks and will prepare me from the canine good citizen test. Which is great because I want to take her out in crowded areas. I went to a festival and had to leave my dog at home. Didn't want to. But had to because she would jump on people. In non crowded situations I can turn her away from the distraction and say leave it... but a festival is full of such things to delight a puppies interest.


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## Atila

so you own a working GSD with no job to do and got problems?no wonder. My Atila is 4 years old, and model of good behavior at home.Drinks, eats and sleeps....BUT, since 3 months old puppy we started training. Adjusted to his possibilities but still training. Right now we have 3-4 walks daily, 15-20 km daily of walk, wach walk consists of obedience training, we do agility 3 times a week, do tricks, freesbee etc. Owning a working dog is a lot of bussiness but it rewards itsef quick.

About biting - why dont you just say stop and then make her sit calmly next to you. dogs cant do more tasks at once, so she cant bite you and get overly exited for it if you're making her do obedience. Reward her with a toy, not food. With rewarding with a toy you're improving her prey instinct, which is a must for any serious training and removing food as something desirable. You should also start working focus with your dog. It improves obedience skills enormously and its a really heavy duty excersise for dogs. After 10-15 minutes of focus training she should be dead tired.

Playing tug of war is another great game in which you can put yourself in a dominant role without using the force. No glvoes needed. The second she doesnt stop on command or touches your hand or clothes with her teeth, the game stops. When you're ready you start it again and so on. The handler always starts and ends all activities, especially tug of war.

Try Balabanov's video 'The game' . it's tug of war rules and some basic obedience done trough that. It's great learning tool.


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## bridget246

Atila said:


> so you own a working GSD with no job to do and got problems?no wonder. My Atila is 4 years old, and model of good behavior at home.Drinks, eats and sleeps....BUT, since 3 months old puppy we started training. Adjusted to his possibilities but still training. Right now we have 3-4 walks daily, 15-20 km daily of walk, wach walk consists of obedience training, we do agility 3 times a week, do tricks, freesbee etc. Owning a working dog is a lot of bussiness but it rewards itsef quick.
> 
> About biting - why dont you just say stop and then make her sit calmly next to you. dogs cant do more tasks at once, so she cant bite you and get overly exited for it if you're making her do obedience. Reward her with a toy, not food. With rewarding with a toy you're improving her prey instinct, which is a must for any serious training and removing food as something desirable. You should also start working focus with your dog. It improves obedience skills enormously and its a really heavy duty excersise for dogs. After 10-15 minutes of focus training she should be dead tired.
> 
> Playing tug of war is another great game in which you can put yourself in a dominant role without using the force. No glvoes needed. The second she doesnt stop on command or touches your hand or clothes with her teeth, the game stops. When you're ready you start it again and so on. The handler always starts and ends all activities, especially tug of war.
> 
> Try Balabanov's video 'The game' . it's tug of war rules and some basic obedience done trough that. It's great learning tool.


Thank you for the advice Atila. A lot of the problems have calmed down now. I noticed you recommended toys instead of food. Well, I haven't had much luck with toys. We are doing more walks but I really need a new winter coat. 

What worked best was getting a trash can with a lid on it. That stopped a ton of problems! It was like the trash attracted her into the kitchen and she would get into everything including the trash. So I would be following her into the kitchen every 5 minutes. 

I'll look up that video. You also recommended training. I did training too... Petsmart training. Which I suppose wasn't completely awful. It just didn't improve her behavior much. The ideas I got here took me a lot further. I've actually joined a akc club. Our first meeting is tonight.

Edit: I've notice that she doesn't try to pull me on walks anymore. She just follows me around.


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## DaViking

bridget246 said:


> Thank you for the advice Atila. A lot of the problems have calmed down now. I noticed you recommended toys instead of food. Well, I haven't had much luck with toys.


That is probably because the toy(s) is not fun enough for her because she have access to it and other toys 24/7. Identify 1 toy and make her go crazy over it. You do that by restricting access and when you pull it out it has to be the most fun *the two of you* can possibly have. When you decide play is over you take it away, she's not to see it. Personally I never introduce a kong as a free toy. Kongs are restricted to super-duper fun between me and my dog. When I take it away work or play is over and I issue the free command. Always teach your dog a command ending work, training or play.

I also agree in most of what Atila says here and in the other thread. Wise words. Remember you have a mentally tough working dog, it's going to require above average effort from you and your gf.


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## Atila

When I mean training then I mean TRAINING.Some serious obedience for starters. Protection work would do wonders for her, since she is a biter. 
About toys: a good working dog has to have a good prey instinct (have no idea whats the right term in English), and the toy represents the prey. In making her more interested in toys remove all toys at your home and put them away. She is not to play on her own. You are resource of toy and fun. Oh, they pick it up quickly.
Here's an intro to Ivan Balabanov:

Obedience without Conflict with Ivan Balabanov: Clear Communication - YouTube

and this is what I mean by training: D'Cliff des Loups Mutins practising obedience - YouTube - this is our first dog trainer at work.


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## bridget246

DaViking said:


> That is probably because the toy(s) is not fun enough for her because she have access to it and other toys 24/7. Identify 1 toy and make her go crazy over it. You do that by restricting access and when you pull it out it has to be the most fun *the two of you* can possibly have. When you decide play is over you take it away, she's not to see it. Personally I never introduce a kong as a free toy. Kongs are restricted to super-duper fun between me and my dog. When I take it away work or play is over and I issue the free command. Always teach your dog a command ending work, training or play.
> 
> I also agree in most of what Atila says here and in the other thread. Wise words. Remember you have a mentally tough working dog, it's going to require above average effort from you and your gf.


No.. she rips up her toys the second she gets them. That is why she doesn't have any good ones. I started a toy thread and been researching toys for her.

Edit: She didn't like my kong. Just looked at it. I tried a lot to get her to like it and she doesn't like kongs. Food filled kongs are fine. Maybe you can suggest a way to play with the kong? I had to train her to fetch the ball because chasing the ball seemed pointless to her.

Last edit: I'm not disagreeing with anyone here. I just wanted that to be clear. I take any and all advice very seriously. I will watch those videos later on tonight.


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## DaViking

bridget246 said:


> No.. she rips up her toys the second she gets them. That is why she doesn't have any good ones. I started a toy thread and been researching toys for her.
> 
> Edit: She didn't like my kong. Just looked at it. I tried a lot to get her to like it and she doesn't like kongs. Food filled kongs are fine. Maybe you can suggest a way to play with the kong? I had to train her to fetch the ball because chasing the ball seemed pointless to her.
> 
> Last edit: I'm not disagreeing with anyone here. I just wanted that to be clear. I take any and all advice very seriously. I will watch those videos later on tonight.


No food filled anything. She is a GSD so you should buy the biggest classic red kong and attach a 3 feet tough rope to it. That's the prey Atila is talking about. Start with playing with it in the house then move things outside (the woods?) and sling-throw it all over the place. But the whole key is to make her go crazy over it. That means you have to go crazy over it too. She observes you and if you are like whatever she will be like whatever.


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## Atila

bridget246 said:


> No.. she rips up her toys the second she gets them. That is why she doesn't have any good ones. I started a toy thread and been researching toys for her.
> 
> Edit: She didn't like my kong. Just looked at it. I tried a lot to get her to like it and she doesn't like kongs. Food filled kongs are fine. Maybe you can suggest a way to play with the kong? I had to train her to fetch the ball because chasing the ball seemed pointless to her.


You tried a lot to get her to like it? Don't fuss, she's a DOG and wont die if she doesnt like her ball at once. LOL, dont get offended.
She doesnt want to retreave the ball? Take the ball, put her on leash and make her sit for 2 minutes. Give her release command and throw the ball/kong/whatever (my Atila jumps and chases just about anything. I even made a fun training rewarding him with soap bubbles).Let her start thinking: ball-running off leash and fun. No ball - on the leash and boring. Praise her for chasing, reward with food, and then throw another ball so to keep her chasing. Retrive you can do later. Dont throw too far at first. Short distances, quick jerks. It should get her moving.

Toys in my home are practicly daily on a shopping list. Atila has very strong bite and takes it out on balls, kongs, freesbees etc. I have accepted it as normal that he can tear up a kong while retreaving it.


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## Atila

DaViking said:


> No food filled anything. She is a GSD so you should buy the biggest classic red kong and attach a 3 feet tough rope to it. That's the prey Atila is talking about. Start with playing with it in the house then move things outside (the woods?) and sling-throw it all over the place. But the whole key is to make her go crazy over it. That means you have to go crazy over it too. She observes you and if you are like whatever she will be like whatever.


Yes,exactly. Actualy try to imagine you have a slightly overgrown kitten in your house and you want to play with a ball or a sling? with her. Imagination does wonders and I'm not joking.


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## KlaMarie

Welcome to the world of working line GSDs :smile: Your OP could be an exact description of my dog. My only saving grace is that we do dogsport (PSA), so exercise and intense training every day is a given and it really helps to keep her head on straight. 

My dog was never loose in the house without a leash on until she was probably 6 months old. She would come out of her crate, we'd go burn some energy, then the leash would get put on, and she would drag it as she got free time in the house. Made getting control of her much easier. My dog is 9 months old now and is still never loose in the house unsupervised. I can sit on the couch while she is loose now, but when she walks into a bedroom I have to get up and follow her, because it takes two seconds for her to get into something she shouldn't. 

And baby gates were, and still are, my best friend :smile: 

The only way I keep Rayne from getting a hold of and destroying things she shouldn't is to keep them out of her reach. No amount of scolding or correction is going to stop her counter surfing, she is just too darn smart and willful. 

You have some awesome suggestions so far from everyone here! I really can't think of anything else to add. Just that as mine got older, it's gotten a little better. She's now 9 months old, and still very much a terror at times. But it's helped me to have the this mentality: she is a dog.....and everything she gets into, does wrong, or destroys is MY fault. So what can *I* do differently to keep this from happening, rather than just trying to fix my dog's natural instincts.


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## bridget246

I would like to point that things are much better than they use to be. I can leave the room and the dog will stop not jump on the corner or tear anything up. I keep it short, at about 10 minutes with her alone and she is fine. This great for me because it means I'm getting closer and closer to my goal. I'm actually a lot further along than I thought I would be. A large part of my success was the suggestions in this thread.

I'll get a rope for the kong. Though, she doesn't really need another toy to play with me right now. We have a lot of things that we do together. Fetch with the ball is one of them. I didn't say she doesn't fetch. I only said that I had to teach her to and I did just the way Atila had laid out for me in this thread. Chasing things and getting excited about them made her excited about the fact I was excited and she never really transferred that excitement to the object I was trying to get her excited about. But maybe I'm doing it wrong. 

I really can't afford for the toys to be torn up so much. My current kong is the extreme one and she hasn't torn that up. She also has a water bottle thing that she kind of likes and hasn't torn up. The ball she picks up, she doesn't bite it really, just picks it up and brings it to me so I can throw it again. 

I'll try the rope swinging kong. Just thinking of how to set it up in my house. Imagination is a wonderful thing when it comes to jobs. The bone in the kong just doesn't last very long. She saw me take out the bone once and instantly knew what she had to pull and that job became very simple. I hide things from here and she likes that to. We play capture the flag with a rope and the entire house as the play area with lots of tug of war mixed in. One of my next tricks is going to be boxing. I have punching mitts that I want to teach her how to paw(hit). I'm hoping that she'll like boxing. I personally loved the sport. There is a lot of other jobs we work at too during the day and she loves it. She really loves working.


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## Maxy24

A good toy to use is a flirt pole, it's not a toy you'd leave her with, it's one you use together. It's essentially a stuffed toy, tied to a rope, attached to a pole. You hold the pole and drag the toy around like a big cat toy, a dog with any prey drive would like it. 

I don't like the idea of restricting toys unless you are playing with the dog. I have had people recommend that to me before and think it's a bad idea, at least for my situation. It took us so long to get our dog to do ANYTHING by himself. If we were not playing with him he got visibly bored, pacing and all. Then he'd go and steal something to try and get our attention back and even if we ignored that he had a new toy to occupy him in the form of the stolen object. So once he started going to his toy box and picking up toys when he was born it was a day of celebration lol. If he doesn't want to just lie on the floor and do nothing when we're not occupying him I don't blame him one bit, so he has toys he can use. I do know people think controlling the toys makes the dog more dependent on you and therefore more willing to work with and for you and more likely to see you are the center of your world, but I just want my dog to be able to occupy himself in an appropriate manner and free access to toys allows him to do that.

I'm really glad to hear things are getting better, keep up the good work!


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## bridget246

Maxy24 said:


> I don't like the idea of restricting toys unless you are playing with the dog. I have had people recommend that to me before and think it's a bad idea, at least for my situation. It took us so long to get our dog to do ANYTHING by himself. If we were not playing with him he got visibly bored, pacing and all. Then he'd go and steal something to try and get our attention back and even if we ignored that he had a new toy to occupy him in the form of the stolen object. So once he started going to his toy box and picking up toys when he was born it was a day of celebration lol. If he doesn't want to just lie on the floor and do nothing when we're not occupying him I don't blame him one bit, so he has toys he can use. I do know people think controlling the toys makes the dog more dependent on you and therefore more willing to work with and for you and more likely to see you are the center of your world, but I just want my dog to be able to occupy himself in an appropriate manner and free access to toys allows him to do that.


I don't like all her toys to be related to me either. That was my whole purpose behind starting the toy thread. I watch football on Sunday's. It's what I do. I wish I had some toys I could give to her while I sit back and enjoy the game. My dog will not do anything bad. She'll just lay down and stare at me with a really bored expression hoping for a commercial break so we could play again.

Edit: I really think I'm lucky. My dog now seems like she is really eager to please me. Didn't use to be that way. It was something I apparently had to earn. The counter surfing has vanished... there are things on my counter that are now left untouched...even food. All this is doing is earning her more and more freedom. Though I only extend the freedom a little at time. I'm even slowly opening the upstairs to her a little at a time with good results. I get this feeling that a GSD can destroy a house in under a hour if left alone. Despite the great results I'm still taking things slowly when it comes to her freedom of the house because I want to catch it the second she makes a mistake so I can correct it and move on.


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## DaViking

Maxy24 said:


> I don't like the idea of restricting toys unless you are playing with the dog. I have had people recommend that to me before and think it's a bad idea, at least for my situation.


I am an in between guy on this. I think a few toys should be free and available while others are restricted so they can be used in bonding, training and work. Restricting all toys and play is very hard in your average household, most does not eat, sleep and dream dogs. Personally I restrict roped kongs and frisbees for this. In field training I have seen ppl using all kinds of stuff, a Barbie was probably the most bizarre one


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## KittyKat

I restrict things like balls. I don't want her chewing on them as i'm concerned about her teeth... so she's only allowed to play with the ball during our play sessions. 

When we were training her we restricted a few toys so that they would have higher value.


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## Halliebrooks

Have you tried any raw meaty bones for stimulation? I had a issue with my dog biting and chewing everything she could untill I got her some raw meaty bones and REAL pig ears ( not the ones from pets Mart) you can get real ones at most butcher shops. This provided my puppy with tons on mental stimulation and at a very cheap cost.


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## bridget246

So my dog is so much better with me now. We have a baby along the way and mom wants to get more involved with training the dog. However, the dog isn't responding to her and loves nipping at her when she gives Bridget a command. I can stop Bridget from doing this from even another room of the house. But... she can't. Does this mean she is going to have to go through everything I went through in order to get the same result? I'm hoping there is a much easier way since the dog at least knows how to stop...


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