# "but he's TOO stubborn for Positive methods"



## CorgiPaws (Mar 31, 2009)

It REALLY bothers me when people say that their dog can not be trained with positive reinforcement because it is too big, dominant, stubborn, aggressive, headstrong, etc. 
I shock my dog because otherwise he [fill in totally fixable misbehavior here]
or
If I don't physically punish her she [insert simple problem with simple solution here]
But I think the one that pisses me off the most:
"He's aggressive otherwise"

You know, I'm NOT a professional trainer. I am just a dog owner with a passion and drive. I by no means claim professional abilities and am the first to admit that my dogs are not perfect, and I DO seek help with training questions from various sources. I've trained my dogs using POSITIVE TECHNIQUES. I've trained an aggressive, stubborn, headstrong, yet terrified GSD to be well adjusted. I've trained a bouncy, spacy, seemingly unconcerned with pleasing me Boxer to be livable and enjoyable. And now, I'm training a Great Dane puppy who at a fragile 8 weeks old has ALREADY been exposed to torture and abuse and is learning how to trust and love. These are just three of the many dogs I've trained, but three that show that ANY dog CAN be trained with positive reinforcement... NO dog is too ANYTHING to resort to training crutches like physical punishment, choke chains, prong collars, shocks, and the like. If I, a simple dog owner with NO formal training can get these three headed in the right direction, anyone can do it. 

*Champ*: A male German Shepherd mix with a history of SERIOUS violent abuse inflicted by his previous male owner. He was beaten, chained with a prong collar too short to even allow him to lay down, crated for days at a time forced to be in his own feces and urine, and screamed at. 
Through POSITIVE REINFORCEMENT only, Champ was reformed into an entirely different dog. YES, it took almost two years to get him there, but by golly he did it. With a little bit of love, he learned to trust humans again. Even better, he learned to LOVE humans again... and then, he even learned to listen to humans again. Champ is now one of the best behaved animals I know, and living happily with his MALE owner. Champ, who used to be incredibly food aggressive. Champ, who used to snarl and lunge at men who came too close. Champ who lived in terror of strangers. Champ who was entirely broken... now, happy, behaved, well-adjusted, and doted on by an adult male. 

*Annie*An airhead all-over-the-place young Boxer. A super high energy, high strung, breed. Just one year old. Is a well-adjusted, super enjoyable girl. She appears to have no desire to please anyone, and yet, with a little encouragement, she learned to WANT to do what I ask of her. High strung, spacey, hyper.... yeah, she's a Boxer. But with mental stimulation and exercise added t the mix, it's simple. 

*Zailey* taken from her mother and littermates FAR too early, and exposed to torture and abuse from the day she came into this big world... she came to me with issues at just 5 weeks old. Anxious, and terrified of every noise, object, and person... she was what most people would call a tiny wreck. 
Working with her the last three weeks have actually been an emotional experience. Watching this INFANT cower at the smallest things... and then learning to trust my husband and I... and then learning to communicate with others of her species.... and then trying to hard to please us... and absorbing everything that is asked of her like a sponge. She's going to be perfect. 



So, there you have it. From the aggressive, to the spacey, to the terrified, ANY dog can be trained with POSITIVE reinforcement, by ANYONE who cares enough to learn the hows whens and whys. 
So next time you THINK you need the aid of a training device, consider a clicker, or bag of treats, rather than some metal or electronic contraption to pick up the slack.


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## NWhaley220 (Sep 14, 2010)

I agree Diesel is treat driven my trainer at first wanted me to use toys not treats but I was just like nuh uh.. His positive reinforcement is food! Trainer saw it and believed it.. I don't believe in any other method then positive reinforcement


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## RawFedDogs (Jun 16, 2008)

I was a professional dog trainer for 15 years and what Linsey says is 100% correct. Not only is it true with dogs but any other animal including humans.


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## merlin371 (Jul 26, 2010)

You know "positive reinforcement" has lost it's real meaning, I mean now we call "positive reinforcement" any training that has no aversion, but that doesnt mean that you are actually using positive reinforcment.

Most PR trainers for example will tell you that if a dog pulls you use the stand there till the dog comes back by your side method or quickly change direction. Now if we look at the fact that positive/negative is, give something to that pleases the dog if he does something right for PR, or take away hold/take away something that dog really wants to do until he does what we want him to do for NR. You'll see that if you hold the dog until he's by your side when all he wanna do is go smell a bush for example, you are taking away from the dog the "freedom" to walk towards that bush until he does it right, at which point you'll reinforce the behavior by letting him go and smell it once he does what you wanted him to do, it's humane and it works perfectly, but it's no positive reinforcement.

Generally speaking any behavior change technique is negative reinforcement, it's humane tho, that's what matters.


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## CorgiPaws (Mar 31, 2009)

merlin371 said:


> but it's no positive reinforcement.


positive reinforcement is the simple act of praising for desired behavior. :wink:


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## RawFedDogs (Jun 16, 2008)

CorgiPaws said:


> positive reinforcement is the simple act of praising for desired behavior. :wink:


I would change the word "praising" to "rewarding". It could be praise, food, play or anything else that causes the dog's tail to wag. :smile:


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## merlin371 (Jul 26, 2010)

CorgiPaws said:


> positive reinforcement is the simple act of praising for desired behavior. :wink:


ya, but most things are negative reinforcement, they are good they are humane and they work, but they arent PR, simple as that NILIF is all negative reinforcement, for example with NILIF one of the example is to get the dog to sit before you let him go at the food, you negate the food from him, till he does what you want him to do, or get him to sit before you open the door to go for a walk, you negate the walk until he does what you want him to do.

PR is when you teach your dog a trick and praise him with treats or no treats, but he doesn't know that he's gonna get it 100%, he just knows that if he does it right you are gonna be happy, but it's not like, ok if i sit i can have food.

I'm not saying is bad, I'm just saying that people call it wrong :tongue:


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## luvMyBRT (Mar 8, 2010)

merlin371 said:


> ya, but most things are negative reinforcement


How so?? I guess I'm not following you. How is it negative reinforcement when you praise and reward the dog for good behavior and/or doing what you have taught it to do properly? In my opinion, anything that makes the dog happy is positive reinforcement.


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## RawFedDogs (Jun 16, 2008)

merlin371 said:


> ya, but most things are negative reinforcement, they are good they are humane and they work, but they arent PR, simple as that NILIF is all negative reinforcement, for example with NILIF one of the example is to get the dog to sit before you let him go at the food, you negate the food from him, till he does what you want him to do, or get him to sit before you open the door to go for a walk, you negate the walk until he does what you want him to do.


I don't agree. In NILIF, the dog sits or does some other task and the dog gets rewarded. Thats positive.



> PR is when you teach your dog a trick and praise him with treats or no treats, but he doesn't know that he's gonna get it 100%, he just knows that if he does it right you are gonna be happy, but it's not like, ok if i sit i can have food.


If you have a proper relationship with your dog, he will sit because you want him to and he wants to please you. He sits for no other reason. The treat or whatever other reward you give him in the beginning is nothing more than a aid to teach him "sit". Once he learns what sit is and can do it anywhere, anytime, reliably with distractions, then the reward is weaned from him and he rarely gets it again for performing "sit" or whatever behavior you have just taught him. My dogs never get any kind of reward, other than praise, for doing any of the basic behaviors they need to perform in day to day life.



> I'm not saying is bad, I'm just saying that people call it wrong :tongue:


I think you are calling it wrong. If a dog gets a reward for performing a behavior, thats positive.


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## merlin371 (Jul 26, 2010)

Read this
What is Negative Reinforcement?



> Driving in heavy traffic is a negative condition for most of us. You leave home earlier than usual one morning, and don't run into heavy traffic. You leave home earlier again the next morning and again you avoid heavy traffic. Your behavior of leaving home earlier is strengthened by the consequence of the avoidance of heavy traffic.


So by the same logic, Dog wanna have food, dog knows that if he sits he will get food so he will do it, it's negative conditioning.

I think most people don't realize that negative and positive have nothing to do with being good or bad is just an Operand, Positive meaning + Negative meaning -

So whenever something is introduced that is a negative effect on the dog, like i said holding the dog when he wants to run in another direction, his behavior is strengthen by the fact that if he doesn't pull he gets to go where he wants a lot more. 
Or holding the food when all the dog wanna do is eat the dog learns that if he does what ya tell him he'll avoid having to wait for food and the quicker he does it the sooner he gets rewarded and the averse state (of being hungry but not getting fed) goes away.



> The concept of Negative Reinforcement is difficult to teach and learn because of the word negative. Negative Reinforcement is often confused with Punishment. They are very different, however.
> 
> Negative Reinforcement strengthens a behavior because a negative condition is stopped or avoided as a consequence of the behavior.


If you look at punishment for example, most people will go an assume that positive punishment is the good one, but positive punishment is actually jerking on the leash or anything of that kind, positive punishment adds something.
Negative punishment is when you ignore a dog for example whenever he jumps on you to get attention (NILIF)


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## CorgiPaws (Mar 31, 2009)

I guess it's all a matter of perspective. 
My dogs do their commands without knowing if I have a treat or not, so....?

I guess a better term (and the term I used in the first place) would be positive "methods."
My point, in the first place, was that people think they NEED shock collars, choke chains, prong collars, and violence to train their dogs, and they DON'T. It's not necessary. Dogs just don't operate that way.


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## RawFedDogs (Jun 16, 2008)

merlin371 said:


> So by the same logic, Dog wanna have food, dog knows that if he sits he will get food so he will do it, it's negative conditioning.


Thats just entirely 100% wrong. The dog sits, he gets the reward. The dog doesn't sit, he doesn't get the reward. The dog learns to sit. The dog has had no negative experience in this process.



> I think most people don't realize that negative and positive have nothing to do with being good or bad is just an Operand, Positive meaning + Negative meaning -


With positive training, to the dog its good or or nothing. If he performs a behavior he gets a reward. Thats good. If he doesn't perform the behavior he gets nothing. Nothing negative happens to him but by the same token nothing positive does either.



> So whenever something is introduced that is a negative effect on the dog, like i said holding the dog when he wants to run in another direction, his behavior is strengthen by the fact that if he doesn't pull he gets to go where he wants a lot more.


When he doesn't pull he gets to make forward progress. Thats positive. If he pulls, he gets nothing. Thats neither positive or negative. It's nothing.



> Or holding the food when all the dog wanna do is eat the dog learns that if he does what ya tell him he'll avoid having to wait for food and the quicker he does it the sooner he gets rewarded and the averse state (of being hungry but not getting fed) goes away.


The dog performs the behavior he is rewarded. Thats positive. He doesn't perform the behavior, he gets nothing. Thats neither positive or negative unless the dog is starving.



> If you look at punishment for example, most people will go an assume that positive punishment is the good one, but positive punishment is actually jerking on the leash or anything of that kind, positive punishment adds something.


Honestly, I don't consider positive punishment at all. Don't need it.



> Negative punishment is when you ignore a dog for example whenever he jumps on you to get attention (NILIF)


"Negative punishment" is good training practice. The dog is not harmed in any way either physically, mentally or emotionally. Thats positive compared to the alternative. :smile:

Personally I think you look at the world through negative sun glasses. You should think with a more positive attitude and you would be amazed at how much better the world is. :smile:


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## merlin371 (Jul 26, 2010)

RawFedDogs said:


> The dog has had no negative experience in this process.


Omg It's not about a negative experience or positive experience it has nothing to do with the way the dog experiences the situation, negative means something is taken away (good or bad) and positive mean something is being added (good or bad) it has nothing to do with a good or a bad experience is just an operand, it's not about the experience + or -, that's what it's about.

I dont look at the world trough negative sunglasses, I look at it without pre concept which are based only and simply on how a word sounds, negative does not always equal bad, like when you go to the doctor to get checked for a disease or something if the test comes out negative is a good thing, here negative only means - it does not mean anything else just quite freaking simply -.

You can train a dog to do everything trough negative reinforcement and you dont need to harm or raise your hand to the dog at all, it would be just as humane as PR, but ofc we go back to the same thing that Positive sounds a heck of a lot better then negative so for both marketing and for self reassurance saying that you use positive reinforcement makes people feel better, even tho they arent at times.


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## RawFedDogs (Jun 16, 2008)

merlin371 said:


> Omg It's not about a negative experience or positive experience it has nothing to do with the way the dog experiences the situation, negative means something is taken away (good or bad) and positive mean something is being added (good or bad) it has nothing to do with a good or a bad experience is just an operand, it's not about the experience + or -, that's what it's about.


That's book learning, not real world stuff. I've learned the book learning and I have done the real world stuff. If you want to go strictly by book learning, you are correct in all your statements. If you go by real world, as I do, you are pretty wrong a lot of the time.

Book learning is just words and the meaning someone wants to assign to them. Its pretty insignificant in the real world. All trainers know what positive reinforcement training is and what negative reinforcement is in the act of actually training a dog.


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## merlin371 (Jul 26, 2010)

RawFedDogs said:


> That's book learning, not real world stuff. I've learned the book learning and I have done the real world stuff. If you want to go strictly by book learning, you are correct in all your statements. If you go by real world, as I do, you are pretty wrong a lot of the time.
> 
> Book learning is just words and the meaning someone wants to assign to them. Its pretty insignificant in the real world. All trainers know what positive reinforcement training is and what negative reinforcement is in the act of actually training a dog.


Then you are saying you are wrong to yourself, if I'm right in saying that way I said is Negative reinforcement and then only cause you go out "in the real world" and call it whatever I want it, doesnt mean is anything else. If i pick up cd and call it a dvd for 5 years and then someone say that's not a dvd that's a cd, you cant go saying "no it's a dvd in the real world we call it a dvd" it's still a cd. If any trainer know what both are, then you should know how to differentiate them and give them the right names, rather then whatever ya wanna call it.


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## RawFedDogs (Jun 16, 2008)

merlin371 said:


> Then you are saying you are wrong to yourself, if I'm right in saying that way I said is Negative reinforcement and then only cause you go out "in the real world" and call it whatever I want it, doesnt mean is anything else. If i pick up cd and call it a dvd for 5 years and then someone say that's not a dvd that's a cd, you cant go saying "no it's a dvd in the real world we call it a dvd" it's still a cd. If any trainer know what both are, then you should know how to differentiate them and give them the right names, rather then whatever ya wanna call it.


Well I was trying to avoid getting real technical with this but looks like thats not going to be possible. If you want to be precise, you can't just use the terms "positive reinforcement" or "negative reinforcement". The correct terminology uses four different categories Positive Reinforcement (+R), Negative Reinforcement (-R), Positive Punishment (+P) and Negative Punishment (-P).

In the context you are using, you are calling -P to be something other than positive and its not. -P is positive to the dog. No harm comes to the dog using -P. +R and -P are the methods used by positive reinforcement trainers eventhough technically there is a "P" there. That "P" happens to be a negative "P". You can argue the jargon until you are blue in the face but it changes nothing. +R and -P are positive to the dog and the other two are negative to the dog. The dog will work to cause +R and -P to happen. He wll work to avoid -R and +P from happening because they harm him.

Thats why I said there is a difference between book learning and real world action. You can use positive reinforcement (+R & -P) for your entire training career and not have a clue those terms actually exist or what they mean. You can study +R, -R, +P, and -P for years and never be able to put it to practicle use.


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## meggels (May 30, 2010)

I've never fully understood the diff between the four different types, can someone explain them to me? 




I think merlin, you are making it wayyyyy too technical like rawfed said. Just in simple terms, in the "real world" when someone uses the word "positive" it tends to mean "happy, good, etc". Like if you say someone has a positive attitude. I think that's generally how most dog owners view "positive reinforcement" just meaning that you reward the dog for doing something correctly whether it's with food, praise, pats or toys. Where as negative means you are using physical strength to overpower a dog.


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## xxshaelxx (Mar 8, 2010)

merlin371 said:


> Omg It's not about a negative experience or positive experience it has nothing to do with the way the dog experiences the situation, negative means something is taken away (good or bad) and positive mean something is being added (good or bad) it has nothing to do with a good or a bad experience is just an operand, it's not about the experience + or -, that's what it's about.


With this way of thinking, in order to get a dog to stop jumping on you, you'd kick it down rather than ignoring it.  I'm sorry, but the idea behind positive reinforcement is giving a positive ATTITUDE, meaning praise and treats. Positive reinforcement was created to stop people abusing or hurting their dogs, and to add something as in this "positive punishment" you are talking about is just going to hurt the dog!


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## jiml (Jun 29, 2010)

I agree w some of what you say. Negative Pun and neg reinforcement is applied when you "stand like a tree" regardless if you use a pinch collar, flat collar or head harness. the dog stops because its uncomfortable to pull and no longer reinforcing. he goes to the proper area because you reward that. Usually there is more than one quadrant in place w all aspects of training. The "positive training" de-emphasizes the physical aspect of punishment but does not eliminate it. Just the withholding of a treat causes a certain amount of stress.


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## RawFedDogs (Jun 16, 2008)

jiml said:


> I agree w some of what you say. Negative Pun and neg reinforcement is applied when you "stand like a tree" regardless if you use a pinch collar, flat collar or head harness. the dog stops because its uncomfortable to pull and no longer reinforcing.


I don't buy that theory. I always use a flat collar to teach loose leash walking. The dog stops for one reason and one reason only. Because it's impossible for him to walk forward. It's not because of pain or because of being uncomfortable. I have seen a dog's front feet come off the ground because he was pulling so hard and he had on a pinch collar. It's wasn't pain that caused him to stop eventually stop pulling. It was because he wasn't making any forward progress. 

He eventually learned that coming back to the owners side caused forward progress to happen again.



> he goes to the proper area because you reward that.


Rewarded, yes, but not necessarily by a treat. When I teach loose leash walking, in this case, the only reward is forward progress resumes.



> Usually there is more than one quadrant in place w all aspects of training. The "positive training" de-emphasizes the physical aspect of punishment but does not eliminate it. Just the withholding of a treat causes a certain amount of stress.


I don't buy that one either. A dog usually learns pretty quickly what it takes to get a treat. :smile: If he doesn't, the trainer is doing something wrong. He is not communicating with the dog.


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## jiml (Jun 29, 2010)

RawFedDogs said:


> I don't buy that one either.


I dont quite know what to say to that????

this is not rocket science dog pulls - its not comfortable= + punishment (the degree may change from slight w a flat collar to more severe w another but discomfort does exist.)
Not moving forward = negative reinforcement
moving forward or treat for not pulling = pos reinforcement 


all are going on to diff degrees -book or real world.


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