# Pre-Anesthesia Blood Work



## BoxerPaws (Jul 19, 2011)

Hey all. Zoey is getting spayed tomorrow. I have a question about an option to have blood work done before anesthesia.

It's not a complete blood panel. The panel only checks her alkaline phosphatase, total protein, blood urea nitrogen, alanine aminotransferase, creatinine, and blood glucose.

Being a mere 6 months old, with 2 parents who had great OFA test results (so it's unlikely she's got any congenital defects to worry about), I'm not worried about her undergoing anesthesia without the blood work being done. I'm more wondering if it's worthwhile to get it done to see her results having eaten raw for the last 3 months. 

Would any of these items give me any indication how her raw diet is going? Or would a more extensive blood panel be needed for that? (like one that checks things like albumin, cholesterol, phosphorus, calcium, electrolytes...)

Thanks!


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## cprcheetah (Jul 14, 2010)

I always have bloodwork ran on my dogs when they have anesthesia. I discovered my chihuahua had borderline kidney problems when we spayed her....she was 7 months old. I discovered a great dane I had would have died from Anemia if we didn't do pre-surgical bloodwork, we postponed his surgery. The 'basic' screen will give you an idea on how well the diet is working for her. You could do the more 'extensive' one if you are concerned.

ETA: Personally I would wait until she was a little older and more 'full grown' before spaying as it can close her growth plates early.


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## BoxerPaws (Jul 19, 2011)

cprcheetah said:


> ETA: Personally I would wait until she was a little older and more 'full grown' before spaying as it can close her growth plates early.


Thanks for the take on the blood work. I'm leaning toward having it done, it's just that little bit extra expense that is making the total cost give me serious stress. :wacko: ack, money!

As far as waiting: just can't do it. I know it's more important for the larger/giant breed dogs to give them a better chance at attaining their full size potential. Boxers, while considered "large breed" dogs, are kind of in the middle between medium and large. We are not at all prepared/ready to handle a heat cycle in her. There are also risks that come with letting a dog go through a heat cycle re: cancers, etc. I'm not concerned with her being a little smaller for the benefit of knowing she won't get cervical/ovarian cancer.


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## DaneMama (Jun 27, 2008)

I would absolutely recommend having it done. If they have a larger panel available in house before the surgery, I'd go with that instead. But if not, that will do even for a short panel. 

Even if everything looks fantastic, this short panel will give you a good baseline to go off of later in life. 

I do suggest doing blood work EVERY time before anesthesia or at least once a year. A vet can only pick up on so much during a physical exam...


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## Southpaw (Oct 17, 2011)

I'd definitely get it done. Will it give any insight specifically about her diet--I don't know. But I've seen two surgeries canceled in one day due to suspicious bloodwork, in animals that otherwise seemed healthy. It's a good precaution to take, and a good thing to have on file for future reference.


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## Chocx2 (Nov 16, 2009)

Boxer Paws

Don't you think 6 months is young to fix a dog? I don't know your reasoning but I just felt compelled to say that..


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## BoxerPaws (Jul 19, 2011)

Thanks everyone, for your input. I really have been leaning toward getting it done for sure. I guess I just went through all the estimated costs and kind of freaked. This isn't the place to look to cut costs, so we'll get it done.

Natalie, they do a "general health profile" that covers more, but it needs to be done a couple of days before surgery for them to get the results back in time. It's recommended for more mature animals or those with known health issues, so I didn't feel it necessary to add on.



Chocx2 said:


> Boxer Paws
> 
> Don't you think 6 months is young to fix a dog? I don't know your reasoning but I just felt compelled to say that..


Not at all. That's always been considered the "ideal" age. Females can hit their first heat cycles around 6-7 months of age on the early end. And in male cats, at least, they'll start marking if not neutered around this age. Speutering at younger than 6 months is generally frowned upon, but rescue organizations and shelters will do it that young to ensure the animals are placed in homes without the remotest chance of being able to reproduce.

I've done _some_ reading about when the speuter, and I'm comfortable going with 6 months. There are pros/cons either way, and I feel best going with the pros for getting it done at 6 months.


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## kady05 (Jul 29, 2011)

As someone with a female who developed incontinence at 15 months of age, I'd urge you to wait a bit longer to spay her (Piper was spayed at 5 1/2 months). I WISH I had waited with Piper.. can't go back in time though.

But, your decision.

Oh - I never had any blood work done on mine before their S/N. But then again, Wilson & Piper were both S/N at low cost clinics and they don't offer blood work beforehand.


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## lauren43 (Feb 6, 2011)

kady05 said:


> As someone with a female who developed incontinence at 15 months of age, I'd urge you to wait a bit longer to spay her (Piper was spayed at 5 1/2 months). I WISH I had waited with Piper.. can't go back in time though.


It may not have been the early spay that caused her incontinence.

I think 6 months is a good age for females, the chance of cancer increases too much after just a single heat. Boxers are one of the high risk breeds for cancer.


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## MollyWoppy (Mar 19, 2010)

I too will always get bloodwork done before any of my animals have surgery. 
I didn't when Mol got spayed, but it was due to ignorance, I just thought what are the chances she'll have a problem with the anesthesia. 
However, since then, I've known of 1 dog and 1 cat that died under anesthesia. The money spent on bloodwork is worth its weight in gold.


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

BoxerPaws said:


> Thanks for the take on the blood work. I'm leaning toward having it done, it's just that little bit extra expense that is making the total cost give me serious stress. :wacko: ack, money!
> 
> As far as waiting: just can't do it. I know it's more important for the larger/giant breed dogs to give them a better chance at attaining their full size potential. Boxers, while considered "large breed" dogs, are kind of in the middle between medium and large. We are not at all prepared/ready to handle a heat cycle in her. There are also risks that come with letting a dog go through a heat cycle re: cancers, etc. I'm not concerned with her being a little smaller for the benefit of knowing she won't get cervical/ovarian cancer.


you're having her spayed at six months? really? oh, please don't....i know heat is not pleasant to deal with, but spaying her this young takes away the opportunity for her entire system to mature, including her bone structure and pelvic structures....

the risks of spaying her at such a young age are, in my humble opinion, worse than anything else you can do...


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## BoxerPaws (Jul 19, 2011)

Everyone chiming in on age: this definitely wasn't to be a discussion about that. Her appt was for TODAY. She was dropped off at 8 a.m. I wasn't exactly looking to cancel at the last second, I just needed to make a final decision on getting vs not getting the basic blood panel done. 

Your opinions are all valuable, but I believe in my decision to get her spayed before she hits her first heat cycle. Like Lauren said, Boxers tend to be a higher risk breed when it comes to cancer, and that's not a risk I'm willing to take. Nearly all the animals I've known in my life underwent speutering around the 6-month age point and all developed beautifully.

Edited to add: I would never put an animal through a pediatric speuter like most rescues/shelters do. No matter the adoptability of a fixed pet, I'd rather they didn't do it THAT young.


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## kady05 (Jul 29, 2011)

lauren43 said:


> It may not have been the early spay that caused her incontinence.


It's pretty darn likely that it did, even my vet agrees.


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## Love my lab (Dec 9, 2010)

I just got my girl done yesterday(she is 19 months) and where she went they dont have an in house lab so her bloodwork had to get sent out and I got it done a week prior just to make sure all was well, plus I needed a base just because I needed one on her and because she is raw fed. Did you get the bloodwork drawn so you had a baseline? When I had my 1st dog neutered it was many yrs ago I really had no idea anything could happen(it didn't thank goodness), we actually never even had a base on him...ever....bad I know, but back then I didn't know what I do now. He was 6 months, a massive breed, and never had isssues until the last yr of his life. He lived until 12, ate not good food....I swear that sweet boy is probably rolling in his grave at Rheaven and her food....off subject, sorry..lol.... How did the spay go?


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## monkeys23 (Dec 8, 2010)

Lily didn't have bloodwork done before her spay since the shelter dropped her off at the vet and I just picked her up and paid the bill, but I had it done before her emergency surgery when she got attacked Jan 2010.


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## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

Not a spay, but when my dog was attacked by another dog and had to have emergency surgery, they didn't do the bloodwork beforehand - I don't remember them asking me but I'm sure I would have said yes. Maybe they thought there wasn't time.

Anyway, he didn't wake up for over four hours. They didn't know if he was ever going to wake up. I don't know if bloodwork would have told them anything, OR if it would have made a difference because he probably would have died without the surgery, but maybe they would have used a different kind of anesthesia or something.

Or maybe he was just so weak it took him a long time to come out of it. But I felt from what they told me he was reacting to the anesthesia. It was pretty scary.


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## DaneMama (Jun 27, 2008)

Just a note: blood work after a traumatic experience or injury can be skewed for some blood chemistries. So I wouldn't trust a blood panel run after anything like this because of the differences seen. When Bailey got hurt I had blood work done before she went under, one of her liver values was off. I did some research and found that it was due to the stress and trauma. I did recheck blood work about a month later and all was fine. 

Also, time of day makes a huge difference for blood values, as well as if the dog has eaten or not.


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## CorgiPaws (Mar 31, 2009)

Boxers are very prone to spay incontinence as well. 
I really REALLY hope you've also read up on the use of Ace in Boxers, and I hope you made sure your vet won't be using even a tiny amount. 

I got Annie, my Boxer, done at 6 months. She's alive and well, but I really regret not knowing more when I had it done. Heat cycles are inconvenient, yes.... but a small price to pay for overall health. Something that should be considered when getting a female dog....


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## rannmiller (Jun 27, 2008)

Sheesh everyone, you've voiced your opinions on the age of the dogs and 6 months is much better than the 8 weeks like rescues like to do so let's just drop it now. All of my dogs growing up were speutered at 6 months and were/are just fine. I wish I had waited longer for Peyton (11 months) but I didn't and so far she's fine. 

Anyway back on topic, did you opt to have the bloodwork done? Hopefully they didnt overcharge you for the spay, I know some clinics have been doing that lately :-/


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## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

The rescue I got one of my dogs from got a litter of puppies and they had them fixed before they were adopted, and they had a hard time finding a vet that would do it.

i can see their desire to make sure there are no litters, especially as these were mixed breed puppies. I'm sure when you see the worst of the worst in dog abuse and you see it week in and week out your view is a little different than most of us.

But I do wish there was a way to make sure people what they are supposed to do without doing it THAT young, although millions of female dogs have been spayed before their first heat without any problems.


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## cprcheetah (Jul 14, 2010)

Yeah the foster puppies I have are getting spay/neutered at 8 weeks :-( As they won't let them go to their new homes without.


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## barneysmom2510 (Oct 12, 2011)

I know that with males there are quite a few health benefits to waiting to neuter until at least a year with big dogs it is not the same with the female. There are not real health benefits to females to wait.I do however think it is not a good idea to do it under 6 months I cannpt believe shelters spay them that young nit good for the dogs at all. Although I have not read every study I just go by the ones I was given on basset forums and research. Back when My dogs were puppies 10 years ago everyone just spayed/neutered at 6 months. Thsi waiting do neuter Barney was totally new to me. We will see how it goes I would like to make it to 15 months.


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## BoxerPaws (Jul 19, 2011)

Hey all. Sorry for the long silence. I was a tad focused on my little gal last night when we got her home.

Yes, we went with their basic pre-op blood panel. Like you all said, no idea if it says anything at all about her diet, but all her values were perfect (or so I was told), so thanks for the input on the value of getting it done. 

Linds, I'm not sure what Ace is, but if it's short for a full drug name, I didn't see anything containing "ace" on my estimate list of meds/procedures/etc or on her discharge bill/paperwork.

As far as the continued "age" topic, I am aware that there is far more evidence of it being beneficial for males to wait longer, since the testosterone does have more of an effect on their growth and maturation. It also gives their urethra more time to develop, lessening the incidence of prolapse and urinary issues later in life. In females, growth benefits from female hormones are far fewer, and evidence for waiting to spay to prevent incontinence is very lacking in comparison to the drastic benefits seen in the reduction in incidences of cancer. Those were my motivations; I'm not completely uneducated on this stuff. I might be new to raw, but I'm not a total newb when it comes to all animal info.


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## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

I'm glad she's doing well!

in the end, everyone has to make their own choices about stuff like this.

Me, I'm just happy to see people spaying/neutering. With all the dogs that have been successfully prevented from having unwanted litters AND go on to live long and healthy lives, it seems quite unimportant to me to argue over a few months' time. 

Now, if it were a proven fact that a dog spayed at 6 months would drop dead by age 2, it would be different.


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## BoxerPaws (Jul 19, 2011)

xellil said:


> I'm glad she's doing well!
> 
> in the end, everyone has to make their own choices about stuff like this.
> 
> ...


You're very very right! It's most important that owners are responsible and get their pets speutered. Friends of ours have an intact male pibble/jrt(they think) mix. He's an awesome dog, but I didn't even want to introduce Zoey to him before she got fixed! Because I knew she'd get fixed before he ever was. As much as I love her and I think she's going to be an amazing exampe of the breed, others who are experienced in showing and breeding their dogs can go ahead and continue improving the breed. It is not my place to jump in there.

Oh, and to whomever asked about price: ouch. It was a BIG ouch. Definitely think my vet's office is high. Considering how much we've spent just on buying her from the breeder and vetting her in the first 6 months, I will never cringe at another $300-$500 adoption fee ever again! LOL!


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## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

Did you think about one of those low cost places? We have one here in Indy where i think a spay is somewhere between $30-$60 although I can't remember for sure.

Fortunately, if she is healthy your expenses will go way down soon.


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## BoxerPaws (Jul 19, 2011)

There is a low-cost clinic in Philly, but with our schedules and the level of attention she can get at a vet's office vs very busy clinic, I just decided to suck it up and go with the vet. Luckily, I JUST got a check from a company I do freelance work for on the side, and so that entire check went to the spay, rather than depleting my normal income for all out other regular bills. 

Yes, after the first 6 months of life, so from here on out, our costs will just consist of buying meat and other things to spoil her, lol.


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## DaneMama (Jun 27, 2008)

"Ace" is the short term for acepromazine which is a sedative commonly used for an induction drug for anesthesia. It can cause problems for certain breeds of dogs, so vets SHOULD be well informed of these things. I would call and ask if they used it on your girl or not....

Glad to hear that her blood work looked good! I'm sure she will make a fast and full recovery :thumb:


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## BoxerPaws (Jul 19, 2011)

DaneMama said:


> "Ace" is the short term for acepromazine which is a sedative commonly used for an induction drug for anesthesia. It can cause problems for certain breeds of dogs, so vets SHOULD be well informed of these things. I would call and ask if they used it on your girl or not....
> 
> Glad to hear that her blood work looked good! I'm sure she will make a fast and full recovery :thumb:


Thanks, Natalie. I'll double check her discharge paperwork when I get home this evening. Everything they did/used is detailed out in a list, along with the charge for it. If they used it, it should be listed. Anything I'd have to look for now/in the future if it was used? She obviously came through the actual surgery and immediate recovery time fine, but would there be a longer term effect?


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## BoxerPaws (Jul 19, 2011)

*Post-Op Pic*

Figured I'd give you guys something to "awww" over in thanks for the feedback. Lol. Poor girl was so out of it when she got home! :crutch:

(Sorry for the hugeness!)


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## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

Aww. I hate those collars. you'd think if we could put a man on the moon we could come up with something better than that! 

I hope her recovery is very very fast.


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## DaneMama (Jun 27, 2008)

We don't usually send spays home with cones....was she messing with her incision? If not then you could probably take t off of her. 

Boxers have been known to have adverse reactions to acepromazine. Doesn't sound like yours is one of them if they did use ace.


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## barneysmom2510 (Oct 12, 2011)

The cone of shame I can still remember my girls ten years ago they got spyaed on the same day and wore those although not for long.


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## BoxerPaws (Jul 19, 2011)

She shouldn't need to wear it too long. She has a habit of licking her lady parts fairly regularly, so I just wanted to make sure she didn't have any sort of access to that general area, whether she'll mess with it or not. We take the collar off her when we're around to keep an eye on her. She's gone to lick the area a couple of times, but at least we're there to stop her.

With the snow we're getting today eek she's gotten really excited. Hard to keep her chill and relaxed when she wants to go play with the funny white stuff!


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## CorgiPaws (Mar 31, 2009)

Nothing quite like trying to keep a BOXER calm and relaxed. LOL


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## BoxerPaws (Jul 19, 2011)

PuppyPaws said:


> Nothing quite like trying to keep a BOXER calm and relaxed. LOL


OMG you said it!! She has seriously already polished off TWO of the bully sticks I got for her: a regular 12-inch one and a braided 6-incher!!


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