# Tucker



## Makovach (Jan 24, 2012)

On our walk, I decided to stop by the barber's shop. The owner is a barber, as well as a highly recommended trainer. 

All of his practices are of positive reinforcement. 

When I first started talking to him, he asked me why my dogs need work because they are so well behaved. I told him they aren't good enough. They don't pay attention. They don't do things when asked the first time. The lack respect and each of them have their own little quirks. 

He started out showing me a dog he has had in his training for 3 weeks. And a dog that had only been there for two days. As well as his three beautiful border collies. With in minutes he had the out of control dog that had only been there for two days under control. No brutal tugging on the leash for corrections or anything. He doesn't use a harsh voice. He is very gentle. 

He watched me walk Tucker. He observed that Tucker was paying attention to EVERYTHING, except me. He showed me a few new ways to get Tuckers attention and with in 20 minutes Tucker was sitting every time I stopped. Every time he sat he would watch me to see what was next. By the end of the hour, he didn't need any words, tugs or anything. Just praise. 

We are going to continue working with him. 

Tucker is now mentally and physically exhausted.


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## StdPooDad (Mar 16, 2012)

Same with Teaghan, she pays attention to everything but me. If you wanted to share any specifics, I'm all ears...



Makovach said:


> On our walk, I decided to stop by the barber's shop. The owner is a barber, as well as a highly recommended trainer.
> 
> All of his practices are of positive reinforcement.
> 
> ...


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## Makovach (Jan 24, 2012)

StdPooDad said:


> Same with Teaghan, she pays attention to everything but me. If you wanted to share any specifics, I'm all ears...


Well, The one notable different thing we did, was used a prong collar. He fitted it on Tucker so that it wouldn't be too tight and when as tight as it would get, it wasn't tight on him, so it wont dig in. It took about 15-20 minutes to convince me to put one on him he showed me on his dogs, on himself how its not going to dig in and cause pain, and I now see how it is actually a tool, not a method of torture. When using it, you apply barely any pressure, just enough to get the dogs attention. He told me I should never have to pull as hard as to bring the two front feet off of the ground get to get Tucker to think about looking at me like he does on the martin gale. With the prong, I hardly applied any pressure. It didn't take much time for him to realize that all I want is for him to sit as soon as I stop, and he started doing it all on his own.

He did not recommend I use treats for something simple, and to save treats for recalls and more difficult things. Tucker was praised by my voice and a pat on the head. I was very surprised how well he did. He WANTED that pat on the head. Every time he got a "Good boy!" and a scratch behind the ears his tail would wiggle ecstatically. 

What he explained to me was the first 5-10 times, Tell the dog to sit, give a small chance to sit, if he doesn't sit, tug and tell him to sit in a bit of a stern voice. The third time Tug harder and make him sit. 

As you see progress (it only took Tucker 2-3 times of having to say anything the first time to see a result), stop saying sit. Stop and give him a small chance, and then tug. If he doesn't do it (which Tucker did) give a sharper tug and make him sit.

He explained the whole method to me before we started working. It wasn't long before Tucker was racing to beat me. He would try to sit the instant he thought I was going to stop. Which is what I want!

All weekend we are going to work with heeling and sitting. Next Monday we are going to add down/stay. Once he has these down pat, we are going to start with more and more distractions. 

We are going to work up to off lead work. Starting with a 100ft rope, until Tucker's recall is solid. No more off lead fun for Tuck. And the other thing he told me is to stop walking Annie and Tucker at the same time. He said it is important for the one on one time to bond and train. So now each dog gets to go for their own walk to have one on one time. I saw a huge difference with Tucker on his walk.


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## bridget246 (Oct 26, 2011)

That sounds like what I did for Bridget with the prong. I would love to say it worked for me but it didn't a actually give the results I wanted. No matter how long we used the prong in class Bridget would go back to pulling the second I took it off. It is self correcting so it takes out the work I was suppose to be doing. Of course I was able to get her not to pull outside of class where their was 4 or 5 dogs max. But in class when she is surrounded by them Bridget would become a pulling machine if the prong wasn't on. It is a tool. I did get Bridget to pay great attention to me. But I didn't want to keep using it. It was also hurting some of the new more positive training methods that we've been learning these passed couple of weeks. 

Yesterday I took a leather leash, wrapped it around her chest like a harness whenever she would start to pull. She'd calm down, pay attention to me and I'd take it off. I did use treats to get her to follow me closely as we are working into some pretty advance stuff with the off leash control so it is important to me that she be rewarded for the hard work she is doing for me. Bridget made me look really good last night so got quite a few treats for it. 

With the prong on Bridget rarely pulls. She watches me really closely no matter what we are doing.


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## Liz (Sep 27, 2010)

I love the prong - when weaning off it I turn it around so they get the squeeze but no pinch and when they don't need any correction they go to martingale then flat. Good job.


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## bridget246 (Oct 26, 2011)

Liz said:


> I love the prong - when weaning off it I turn it around so they get the squeeze but no pinch and when they don't need any correction they go to martingale then flat. Good job.


I never knew about the turning it around. I was going to switch her off to the martingale next but my new trainer said it wasn't needed. I'm kind of hijacking the thread so I will stop now.


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## NewYorkDogue (Sep 27, 2011)

This is helpful information. I had a breeder of Dogue de Bordeauxs tell me that I must use a prong, eventually, because the dogs get so large, it will be impossible to control them without one (esp. the males.) I was not convinced... but I am re-thinking the idea. Mateo can be brilliant on leash some days (no pulling, responsive to my commands... just a breeze to walk. And then there are the other days. Pigeons, other dogs, a (human) friend he knows and wants to make contact with... and his brain turns into a sieve... Drives me crazy, and can be frustrating.

If the prong collar can be helpful as a useful tool, then I may consider using one-- and work my way back to a Martingale (as Liz suggested.)

Anyway, thanks for sharing; sounds like Tucker is on his way and picking up direction very quickly!


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## Makovach (Jan 24, 2012)

Ideas are always welcome! You're not highjacking my thread  

What works for one dog doesn't always work for another so new ideas are always a great thing.

Tucker needs me to be more dominate. He has been very dominate aggressive with everyone lately- and that won't fly with me. My dogs are made to be submissive and docile. IMO they should never be the one in charge, and Tucker has a problem with this. He always tries to be the leader and gets aggressive if it doesn't go his way. He is still small at one year, I don't want to have to deal with this when he is 4 or 5 and 20 or so lbs bigger. 

One thing the trainer told me is if there is any form of aggression, the dog is unbalanced and can not be considered and obedient dog. That made a lot of sense to me, and going by that, my dogs are not obedient. They are very assertive. And to have what I want, I need to stop that. Which means I need to step up and show them that I'm not going to have it. 

He also told me it should help with Annie's anxiety. The more stable I become, the more she can trust me. 

Believe it or not, this is makeing me more stable. I haven't been on any meds in a couple weeks (I ran out) and focusing on new things and re-evaluating life makes my anxiety not go so haywire.


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## Makovach (Jan 24, 2012)

NewYorkDogue said:


> This is helpful information. I had a breeder of Dogue de Bordeauxs tell me that I must use a prong, eventually, because the dogs get so large, it will be impossible to control them without one (esp. the males.) I was not convinced... but I am re-thinking the idea. Mateo can be brilliant on leash some days (no pulling, responsive to my commands... just a breeze to walk. And then there are the other days. Pigeons, other dogs, a (human) friend he knows and wants to make contact with... and his brain turns into a sieve... Drives me crazy, and can be frustrating.
> 
> If the prong collar can be helpful as a useful tool, then I may consider using one-- and work my way back to a Martingale (as Liz suggested.)
> 
> Anyway, thanks for sharing; sounds like Tucker is on his way and picking up direction very quickly!


The only thing I would suggest is to find someone who knows how to size properly if you do not. I never knew it shouldn't be so tight that the prongs go into their neck, that's what kept me away from it. 

I do believe it can be a great tool! I was starting to consider a shock collar for Tucker's recall  Now I don't feel I need to.

I love Liz's suggestion. It makes a lot of sense and I'm sure it will be helpful when I'm working towards the martingale.


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## bridget246 (Oct 26, 2011)

Makovach said:


> Ideas are always welcome! You're not highjacking my thread
> 
> What works for one dog doesn't always work for another so new ideas are always a great thing.
> 
> ...


It will be hard quitting your meds with all of these changes. I hope you can do it. 

I'm not saying the prong didn't work for Bridget. It did work for Bridget. I could walk Bridget through 30 dogs doing back flips and her eyes would be on me the entire time. It made the training a little boring. I like challenging dogs but I don't want to hurt their necks with that flat collar trying to get them not to pull. That does far more damage than the prong ever would. Not using it was more of a persona choice.

I noticed two problems with Bridget. 1) Without the prong in areas of high distractions I have to give a small tug or something to get her to realize that I'm talking to her. 2) Nobody else seems to be able to work with her. My trainer was trying to show me how she would respond to something and Bridget would not listen. It was good to see someone with so much experience getting the same results from Bridget that I always did in the past. My gf can't get her to do anything she wants either so that isn't good and I can't correct that if she isn't going to work the dog then the dog isn't going to listen to her. 

The trainer I really wanted was the lady dog whisperer I saw in petsmart. We were walking through petsmart with Bridget trying to get her somewhat under control and completely failing. This old lady ask if she can help. Bridget dove onto everyone she met and would try to take them down. She told me not to be worried because she knew what was doing. She took my leash, gave Bridget a stare and whispered for her to sit. Bridget tried to resist but she whispered again and Bridget sat. Then she walked Bridget a little without her pulling. To this day I have no idea how she did that so easily. She said she had been training dogs her whole life and loved working with dogs like Bridget who just needed a lot of positive training. I hope to be there one day.


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## Makovach (Jan 24, 2012)

I wonder if that is something? 

The trainer mentioned to me (useing his dogs) how he whispers to them. He said they want to listen and they have to really listen if he talks with a light voice. He was 30 foot away from his dog and told her to come, and down half way and she did it. I could barely hear him. He said its just something he does because the dogs learn that if they really want to listen, they have to pay very close attention. 

He has his one dog in a sit, and told her "Heads up" and she pointed her nose to the sky. She sat there for about ten minutes like that while we were working with Tucker, She didn't move an inch. He told her "That'll do, Good girl!" and she relaxed and was wagging her tail like crazy! His dogs also read signs. All signs are the same color with the same color writing and they do EXACTLY what the sign said. I figured it was something bogas. My boyfriend said He wrote on a new piece of paper, "Go lay down in the hall way" She went to the hallway, Then he wrote on the back "Bring me a ball" and she went and got a ball and took it to him.

I have never seen dogs like his. I only wish my dogs can be half as good as his!


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## lovemydogsalways (Mar 4, 2012)

That is great to hear! I use a prong with my lab. I hope someday to transition off of it to a flat collar only. I might need to take that suggestion of walking the girls separate. I know Patches would like me all to her self. It would also really help getting Emma transitioned faster I bet if we worked one on one.


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## bridget246 (Oct 26, 2011)

Makovach said:


> I wonder if that is something?
> 
> The trainer mentioned to me (useing his dogs) how he whispers to them. He said they want to listen and they have to really listen if he talks with a light voice. He was 30 foot away from his dog and told her to come, and down half way and she did it. I could barely hear him. He said its just something he does because the dogs learn that if they really want to listen, they have to pay very close attention.
> 
> ...


Bridget is going to learn the sign reading. I believe they teach that in the club I'm in. 

Thank you for pointing out that he always whispers. Like your story, I could barely hear her speaking to Bridget. What got me the most is that she didn't use any physical correction of any type and Bridget paid attention, full attention despite distractions. Maybe some people can teach a dog that fast but I'm not even close to there yet. I'm really going to try to get that whisper thing to see what happens after 6 weeks of using it.


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## Makovach (Jan 24, 2012)

lovemydogsalways said:


> That is great to hear! I use a prong with my lab. I hope someday to transition off of it to a flat collar only. I might need to take that suggestion of walking the girls separate. I know Patches would like me all to her self. It would also really help getting Emma transitioned faster I bet if we worked one on one.


I walked both of my dogs one on one today, and I've gotta say, I almost can't believe they behaved so much better. Lots of one on one unless some one else is walking the other dog for now on.


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## Liz (Sep 27, 2010)

This is they way we were taught behavior. Speak softly, you are more interesting if they have to work a little to listen to you. Always be calm - a nervous or stressed person should not be handling a dog - that goes right down the leash. Picture how you want the dog to look beside you and expect that picture to come true. I never expect poor behavior even if there is a history of it. I think there are people who have a natural gift to bond instantly with animals and can read them instantly - it is second nature. Others have handled so many dogs that they are comfortable and very well practised.


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## Makovach (Jan 24, 2012)

bridget246 said:


> Bridget is going to learn the sign reading. I believe they teach that in the club I'm in.
> 
> Thank you for pointing out that he always whispers. Like your story, I could barely hear her speaking to Bridget. What got me the most is that she didn't use any physical correction of any type and Bridget paid attention, full attention despite distractions. Maybe some people can teach a dog that fast but I'm not even close to there yet. I'm really going to try to get that whisper thing to see what happens after 6 weeks of using it.



I don't think the dogs getting trained is going to take long at all. I think us humans learning how to train the dogs is the long part. And the hard part.


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## bridget246 (Oct 26, 2011)

Liz said:


> This is they way we were taught behavior. Speak softly, you are more interesting if they have to work a little to listen to you. Always be calm - a nervous or stressed person should not be handling a dog - that goes right down the leash. Picture how you want the dog to look beside you and expect that picture to come true. I never expect poor behavior even if there is a history of it. I think there are people who have a natural gift to bond instantly with animals and can read them instantly - it is second nature. Others have handled so many dogs that they are comfortable and very well practised.



Not stressed or nervous I knew. Speaking in a very quiet voice I didn't know. I thought Bridget would follow me better with a more upbeat voice that wanted to have fun while getting things done. It would work. But maybe a whisper would bring me even better results. A even better idea might be to use both. There are so many different things to do with training dogs and I'm so interested in it.


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## Liz (Sep 27, 2010)

It depends on what you want - for obedience I wan't a dog concentrating and thinking and an excited frame of mind is not conducive to learning. When our work is done I will generate excitement as part of their rewards for a job well done and we play.


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## bridget246 (Oct 26, 2011)

Makovach said:


> I don't think the dogs getting trained is going to take long at all. I think us humans learning how to train the dogs is the long part. And the hard part.


That is what I meant. It would take me time to get it down. The old lady had Bridget walking loose leash in 5 minutes. So no, it wouldn't take long at all if I knew how. But I'm training myself more than I'm trying Bridget. 

Not to mention that Bridget and Carlos are so different. I've been working with them both. They just seem so opposite of each other. There are times when I don't even know what to do with Carlos because I'm not getting all that wild energy that I'm use to working with. Just a relaxed dog waiting for the next command.


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## bridget246 (Oct 26, 2011)

Liz said:


> It depends on what you want - for obedience I wan't a dog concentrating and thinking and an excited frame of mind is not conducive to learning. When our work is done I will generate excitement as part of their rewards for a job well done and we play.


If you ever decided to write a book just go ahead and charge me for it now and send the copy to my house whenever it is finished.


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## Makovach (Jan 24, 2012)

bridget246 said:


> If you ever decided to write a book just go ahead and charge me for it now and send the copy to my house whenever it is finished.


I second that. 

I think you better get started. And you might have to have a few sequels. You've got a lot to cover


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## liquid (Dec 28, 2011)

bridget246 said:


> If you ever decided to write a book just go ahead and charge me for it now and send the copy to my house whenever it is finished.


Hell, with all of the helpful posts Liz has made on here, she's already got a book written! Now all we gotta do is sift through everything and put it together :tongue:


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## lovemydogsalways (Mar 4, 2012)

Makovach said:


> I walked both of my dogs one on one today, and I've gotta say, I almost can't believe they behaved so much better. Lots of one on one unless some one else is walking the other dog for now on.


Who do you walk first? Shouldn't I walk my older dog first since she "should" be higher up in the pack than my young lab.


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## Makovach (Jan 24, 2012)

lovemydogsalways said:


> Who do you walk first? Shouldn't I walk my older dog first since she "should" be higher up in the pack than my young lab.


I walk who ever listens first. When I tell them to come and to sit. Usually this is Tucker. Some times its Annie.


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

can i put a prong on a pug?


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## lovemydogsalways (Mar 4, 2012)

Makovach said:


> I walk who ever listens first. When I tell them to come and to sit. Usually this is Tucker. Some times its Annie.


LOL Ok. I wonder if it would matter to my two who I walk first. I do not know if that affects pack order or not. If I leave Emma, the lab, she will holler her lungs out about being left behind. If I took her first then she would be tired after we get back and most likely not squeal for leaving her.
Howver if she is left first then she learns patience, I think.


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## Makovach (Jan 24, 2012)

magicre said:


> can i put a prong on a pug?


I thing a prong can be used on any dog. 
I asked the trainer and he said yes. He said that it is most important that you fit it to where when it is as tight as it can be, its not super tight on his neck and the prongs are not digging in. This is how it should be for any dog. So you would just have to find one small enough (they make them for toy sizes). All it is supposed to do is to give a "bite" correction like the mother would. Its not supposed to choke or dig into their neck.


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## Makovach (Jan 24, 2012)

lovemydogsalways said:


> LOL Ok. I wonder if it would matter to my two who I walk first. I do not know if that affects pack order or not. If I leave Emma, the lab, she will holler her lungs out about being left behind. If I took her first then she would be tired after we get back and most likely not squeal for leaving her.
> Howver if she is left first then she learns patience, I think.


Patience is something we are working on. Myself included. 

Tucker has learned the word "Wait" and he knows that he has to. Its not been quite a week and I've already noticed a major difference in his behavior. He has to wait for his food. He has to wait to go out side. He has to wait to come inside. He has to wait to get in/out of the car. He has to wait for the toy to be thrown. He has to wait to be petted. He has to wait for a treat. When I tell him "Wait" he knows I expect him to sit quietly and not bother or rush me. He has to let me get ready and then we will go on my time, not his. 

He is all around calmer in the house. We have been taking away privileges such as running loose at the park or to potty. For a few days we took away privileges of being on the couch or our bed. 

We took down the kennel because there is no room for it. So now we are working on place training more as well as being penned in the bathroom with Annie. So far so good. 

I would not take your lab out if she is acting excited. I would wait and let her calm down and give you the behavior you desire before going one step further.


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## lovemydogsalways (Mar 4, 2012)

*Walks this evening*

I took Patches first and she did so well just like in the old days when I trained her in 4-H. It has been three years since we were in 4-H and she has been allowed to slack allot, which is all my doings and I know that. She isn't like naughty or anything just won't heel or do basic commands right when I tell her. She takes her sweet time. She heeled wonderfully on our one on one walk together.
Emma did great as well and yes I still used her prong because we are not ready to walk without one. It will probably take all summer to get her to walk on a flat collar. Then again we are moving to the country in May so she may not get many leashed walks at all after that, just all off leash runs/walks.


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## Liz (Sep 27, 2010)

re - they have micro prong for small dogs - We use these for shelties when needed as they are small links which make the collar easier to fit appropriately. You want the prongs to touch the neck all they way around when there is no pressure. The slightest tug will produce a pinch - it is controlled by the dog you don't jerk or anything you just hold the leash and his attention if he chooses to pull the collar will pinch when he stays with in his area he is comfortable. Totally up to him. i let them wear it with a leash on at home so when they step on it they learn the sensation and then we start walking with it. They tend to do really well.

Excitement - I never reward the dog that has a hissy or just can't wait. The calm one waiting for the next command is who goes first. The loud one usually starts to learn self control fairly quickly. Humans and animals don't learn well when in high excitement mode. You need to be calm to learn. JMHO


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