# Raw for new pups?



## mfrank84 (Aug 23, 2009)

My wife and I will be receiving our two new shih tzu pups in a couple of weeks. They will be approximately 8-9 weeks old when we get them. We have always fed our past furry friends a mixture of kibble and a good quality canned food. Our Llahsa Apso lasted 17 1/2 years and our Basset Hound made it 13 1/2 years on this diet. Neither one had any major medical issues throughout their lifetime other than old age. I had never really thought about given our dogs a raw diet. But after doing some preliminary prep for our new kids, especially those related to diet, I'm not so sure I want to go this route again. The information on some of the major dry kibble brands scare me to death. We will need help with this new method. First, will a raw diet be suitable for these new guys? Secondly, if so, how do we go about it? Are there any websites with menus, portions and how to's? Is there a good, high quality kibble to use in association with a raw diet? Is it even necessary? So many questions. These will probably be the last pets we will ever have given our age and we want to do it right. Thanks for any input, suggestions or information. Thanks.


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## mfrank84 (Aug 23, 2009)

*Follow-up*

At the risk of being monotonous, if there are threads that answer similar questions to what I've asked, please point me to them. Thanks again.


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## RawFedDogs (Jun 16, 2008)

mfrank84 said:


> First, will a raw diet be suitable for these new guys?


Absolutely. To say otherwise would be like saying that grass in inappropriate to feed a calf. Puppies in the wild have been fed a raw diet for millions of years. Kibble, being only 50 or so years old is the new comer to town. Why aren't you instead asking if its suitable to feed them kibble? Kibble has never been proven to be anywhere nearly as healthy as a raw diet.



> Secondly, if so, how do we go about it?


Check out my web page listed in my sig. Read it carefully and also read the links and get the book. If you have any questions after that (and you will), don't hesitate to ask them.



> Are there any websites with menus, portions and how to's?


Same as above



> Is there a good, high quality kibble to use in association with a raw diet?


NO. Eventhough some people do it, it is never advised to feed kibble in association with a raw diet. Why would you want to dumb down the raw diet?



> Is it even necessary?


No, not at all. Why would it be?

Congratulations on your new puppies. Have fun with them. :smile:


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## mfrank84 (Aug 23, 2009)

Rawfeddogs,

Thanks for the info. I wished I had read your sig. site first. Most of my questions would have been answered there. Sorry. Great information. We have several weeks to get this right so we plan on starting now by reading all the literature we can on raw feeding. We'll let you know how it goes. Have a blessed day.


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## rannmiller (Jun 27, 2008)

It would be such a great idea to get your shih-tzu puppies started on raw from the beginning, they can be a very long-lived breed, especially if they're fed right :smile:

Raw would be the best, and least expensive way to keep them as healthy as possible.


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## claybuster (Dec 18, 2008)

mfrank84 said:


> My wife and I will be receiving our two new shih tzu pups in a couple of weeks. ... Thanks for any input, suggestions or information. Thanks.


Abady Raw

They also make a Granular feed which is what I feed my dogs (good convenient option to raw).


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## rannmiller (Jun 27, 2008)

Is Abady raw as cheap as prey model raw? And does it come in the same form so the dogs are getting the most benefit out of chewing the huge hunks of meat and gnawing on bones?


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## claybuster (Dec 18, 2008)

rannmiller said:


> Is Abady raw as cheap as prey model raw? And does it come in the same form so the dogs are getting the most benefit out of chewing the huge hunks of meat and gnawing on bones?




No large bones, it is in the mix in the form of crushed bone. Abady raw looks more like hamburger. It is all meat. The only thing that I noticed was Rosemary but it had in parenthesis used as a natural preservative for the beef fat. I should pick up a bag and post up the ingredients....but on second thought, maybe not. I tried that once before with a Granular not posted on the Abady website and ended up removing them shortly thereafter. It would seem like if there are no botanicals in there like Dandelion, the food just doesn't make the grade, so why bother. If I get a package though I will gladly scan it for you send you an email if interested. Cheaper than whole prey? I'm guessing probably not. Safer than whole prey and equally nutritious....absolutely.

You can always get some bones from the butcher shop for the dog to gnaw on but too much bone can blow you calcium phosphous ratios out of whack which is proably not a good thing. I wouldn't over do it with bone if not necessary (already in the diet).


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## rannmiller (Jun 27, 2008)

Exactly, if you feed raw, you get it cheaper, with no rosemary, and with the bones included in every meal so you don't have to worry about adding too much calcium. And how is Abady safer than that? I'd actually be very interested in seeing the ingredients in Abady raw.


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## claybuster (Dec 18, 2008)

rannmiller said:


> Exactly, if you feed raw, you get it cheaper, with no rosemary, and with the bones included in every meal so you don't have to worry about adding too much calcium. And how is Abady safer than that? I'd actually be very interested in seeing the ingredients in Abady raw.




Well, for one thing, everything is already balanced in the ration. Lets say a raw feeder unwittingly has too much bone in the diet and not enough say organ meat, one could argue they have not achieved the proper balance in the ration. Wouldn't a probably balanced diet all the time be more ideal than just getting it right 80% or 70% of the time? Another thing about safety is feeding a whole prey (model) diet you need to do some homework and have a good working knowledge of ingredients and what items to choose for what reasons. There has already been one user I can think of on this board with a trip to the emergency Vet, a costly trip, for they did not do their homework in regards to weight bearing bone. I see a lot greater safety in a properly structured (even home prepared) meat based diets than whole prey model. Problem is finding a properly structured commercial raw ration w/out all the vegetables, fruit and grains (same path as omnivore kibble). You found one with Abady.

Yes, I will get those ingredients to you but need some time. I picked up a new box recently and won't need feed for 3 months. If I can stop in before then and grab a package I will.

I wouldn't be concerned too much about the rosemary. It is the extract, not the plant itself and obviously something natural to preserve the fats. Abady does not use artificial preservatives in any of their foods.


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## RawFedDogs (Jun 16, 2008)

claybuster said:


> Well, for one thing, everything is already balanced in the ration.


How do you know? Because they say so?



> Lets say a raw feeder unwittingly has too much bone in the diet and not enough say organ meat, one could argue they have not achieved the proper balance in the ration.


How much is the proper balance? There is no exact amount necessary nor even an ideal amount. Anywhere between 10% and 35% of the diet is fine for bone. Thats a BIG range and not difficult to achieve.



> Wouldn't a probably balanced diet all the time be more ideal than just getting it right 80% or 70% of the time?


No, its entirely unnecessary and I have doubts it's even healthy. Is every meal you eat completely balanced? I doubt it. You balance over time. Do you think animals in the wild get a perfectly balanced meal each day? Of course they don't.



> Another thing about safety is feeding a whole prey (model) diet you need to do some homework and have a good working knowledge of ingredients and what items to choose for what reasons.


Thats baloney. I can teach anyone in a hour all they need to know to feed and execelent and a balanced prey model diet. There are just 2 basic hard and fast rules.
1. Feed raw meat, bones, and organs from a variety of animals.
2. Feed mostly meat, some bones, and some organs. Exact ratios don't matter.

There, thats it. Now you know all you need to know to feed a balanced prey model raw diet.



> I see a lot greater safety in a properly structured (even home prepared) meat based diets than whole prey model. Problem is finding a properly structured commercial raw ration w/out all the vegetables, fruit and grains (same path as omnivore kibble). You found one with Abady.


You are paranoid about all the possible bad things that can happen to you or your dogs. Prey model raw diet it safe. Dogs have been eating it for millions of years and thriving. Abady is just another one of the little companies who make pre-made raw paddies and call it a raw diet. It is nothing more than raw kibble. Nothing comes close to whole unprocessed food either for humans or any other animal.



> Yes, I will get those ingredients to you but need some time. I picked up a new box recently and won't need feed for 3 months. If I can stop in before then and grab a package I will.


Why don't they put the ingredients of their raw food on their web page?


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## claybuster (Dec 18, 2008)

RawFedDogs said:


> How do you know? Because they say so?


Yes



> How much is the proper balance? There is no exact amount necessary nor even an ideal amount. Anywhere between 10% and 35% of the diet is fine for bone. Thats a BIG range and not difficult to achieve.


If you say so.





> No, its entirely unnecessary and I have doubts it's even healthy. Is every meal you eat completely balanced? I doubt it. You balance over time. Do you think animals in the wild get a perfectly balanced meal each day? Of course they don't.


That's a new one, unhealthy to eat balanced diets every day. We're not built for feast or famine like carnivore dog. When they eat in the wild they get it right all the time, even if that is once a week.




> Thats baloney. I can teach anyone in a hour all they need to know to feed and execelent and a balanced prey model diet. There are just 2 basic hard and fast rules.
> 1. Feed raw meat, bones, and organs from a variety of animals.
> 2. Feed mostly meat, some bones, and some organs. Exact ratios don't matter.
> 
> There, thats it. Now you know all you need to know to feed a balanced prey model raw diet.


Sounds too easy to be true. 



> You are paranoid about all the possible bad things that can happen to you or your dogs. Prey model raw diet it safe. Dogs have been eating it for millions of years and thriving. Nothing comes close to whole unprocessed food either for humans or any other animal.


Whole prey is safe, yes that would be fresh road kill as well. Whole prey model is processed food. Only if you're hunting your own game or picking up road kill is the food unprocessed.

People do mistakes like the person on this list and ended up with a trip to the emergency vet because they did not do their homework. It happens.



> Why don't they put the ingredients of their raw food on their web page?


Probably because of people like you and Miss Corgi Paws who bash feeds and never once tried the product.



> Abady is just another one of the little companies who make pre-made raw paddies and call it a raw diet. It is nothing more than raw kibble.


Tell that to the sled dog team that finish the race in good standing. But we all know you think that is a bunch of lies and marketing. That would be the High Competition and Stress Formula, and it is way out of your league.


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## CorgiPaws (Mar 31, 2009)

claybuster said:


> Probably because of people like you and Miss Corgi Paws who bash feeds and never once tried the product.


Awh Claybuster, I didn't know I was always on your mind. Flattering. 
If my personal experience and knowledge of canine nutrition qualifies certain ingredients as good, and certain ingredients as bad, then I pick me feed from there. By-products aren't TERRIBLE, but quality meats and meat meals are better. Fruits and veggies aren't GREAT, but better than grain. That is how I riled Abady out of MY PERSONAL list of what I am okay with feeding my dogs and what I'm not. This is how I can "bash" a product without trying it. Everything I know about canine nutrition tells me that I am feeding a superior diet to that, though NO prepared diet, be it kibble or commercial raw, comes close to a prey model raw diet. 
Now I ask:
have you tried a diet of nothing but raw fruits and veggies for your dog? If not, WHY? Could it be because you know better than that? Because you have a better understanding of canines and carnivores than to go do something that stupid?
THAT is why I do NOT feed Abady. I have a better understanding and I feel there are better feeds. I give them thumbs up for animal content in their food. Applaud them for that. But what good is animal content if virtually none of it is from a quality meat source?


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## CorgiPaws (Mar 31, 2009)

claybuster said:


> Well, for one thing, everything is already balanced in the ration.


Dogs in the wild get their balance over a weeks or even a month's time. I'm not concerned about doing it every meal, though one definately could if they were concerned with it. It's just a matter of knowing a thing or two.



claybuster said:


> Lets say a raw feeder unwittingly has too much bone in the diet and not enough say organ meat, one could argue they have not achieved the proper balance in the ration.


Given the high range that is okay, you'd have to be the village idiot to seriously mess your dog up on prey model raw. So yes, one could argue that, but one would also be an idiot. 
Also, chances are if you're going to dive into raw, you've done your research first. in fact, researching commercial dog foods and unwrapping its horrors is probably what made said individual go raw in the first place. 



claybuster said:


> Another thing about safety is feeding a whole prey (model) diet you need to do some homework and have a good working knowledge of ingredients and what items to choose for what reasons.


Again, no one goes raw without researching anything first. No one. People who know nothing about dog food do the cheapest most convenient thing they can, figuring that if it's good enough that they can sell it, then it's good enough for their dog to eat. 



claybuster said:


> There has already been one user I can think of on this board with a trip to the emergency Vet, a costly trip, for they did not do their homework in regards to weight bearing bone.


This particular person made a common mistake. Even somewhat informed people who know to feed raw bones don't necessarily know not to feed weight-bearing bones. I didn't. I was giving raw knuckles and femurs like crazy to my boys for a long time, luckily with no incident. When I learned better, I switched them to ribs. 



claybuster said:


> Yes, I will get those ingredients to you but need some time. I picked up a new box recently and won't need feed for 3 months.


I don't trust anything about a dog food company that does not list all ingredients and nutritional information on their website. Sketchy thing number 12394872378978 from Abady. What are they hiding?



claybuster said:


> It is the extract, not the plant itself and obviously something natural to preserve the fats.


Just like you consider something that comes off of a plant to not be a plant, right?


Sounds like someone has bought into A LOT of ONE company's marketing and promotional material, and has been entirely brainwashed and blindsighted by it. But I won't point fingers, of course.


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## claybuster (Dec 18, 2008)

CorgiPaws said:


> THAT is why I do NOT feed Abady. I have a better understanding and I feel there are better feeds


We are all entitled to our opinions and mine happen to differ from yours when it comes to commercial dry feeds. I think you like EVO, and that is something I would choose not to feed because of certain ingredients, just like you would stay away from Abady because of certain ingredients.


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## claybuster (Dec 18, 2008)

CorgiPaws said:


> This particular person made a common mistake.


So we can assume it happens frequently because it is a common mistake and not an isloated incident.



> Sounds like someone has bought into A LOT of ONE company's marketing and promotional material, and has been entirely brainwashed and blindsighted by it. But I won't point fingers, of course.


I feed the product because I feel it is the absolute best in the commercial market and have had nothing but excellent results for 7 years.


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## claybuster (Dec 18, 2008)

CorgiPaws said:


> But what good is animal content if virtually none of it is from a quality meat source?


Quality is again a matter of opinion. I feel through my research Chicken By-Product Meal is equally nutritious to Chicken Meal. By-Products in themselves are also equally nutritious to that of meat muscle. IMO the focus should be on the quantity of the animal source proteins in the ration but not necessarily the quality _appeal _of those ingredients. They could use road-kill for all I care, so long as animal source protein remain the focus.


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## RawFedDogs (Jun 16, 2008)

claybuster said:


> Yes


Have you ever read one word of their promotional material you don't believe? I have a saying that is very true and you should pay attention to it. "_Always be wary of information given you by someone who stands to make money off any decision you make based on that information._" You should print those words out in big letters, frame it, and hang it on your wall. :smile:



> If you say so.


I do say so because it's true. That information is readily available if you look other places besided Abady's promotional material.



> That's a new one, unhealthy to eat balanced diets every day. We're not built for feast or famine like carnivore dog. When they eat in the wild they get it right all the time, even if that is once a week.


I was simply making a point that no one eats a balanced diet every day or even any given day. Besides, what is balance? Who knows? Those that claim to know (and they don't) constantly change the "balance".



> Sounds too easy to be true.


It's not. I've been feeding my dogs and cats that way for 7 years with no prolbem. They are fine healthy animals.



> Whole prey is safe, yes that would be fresh road kill as well. Whole prey model is processed food. Only if you're hunting your own game or picking up road kill is the food unprocessed.


If you consider cutting off a part of an animal and freezing it as processing, then yes it's processed but don't you do the same with game animals?



> People do mistakes like the person on this list and ended up with a trip to the emergency vet because they did not do their homework. It happens.


I don't remember the particular case you are talking about but yes accidents happen. Hospitals and vet's offices are full of accidents every day. Dog's have accidents in countless ways.



> Probably because of people like you and Miss Corgi Paws who bash feeds and never once tried the product.


I don't need to try the product. It's a kibble that has never been extruded into the little nugets. Nothing more.



> Tell that to the sled dog team that finish the race in good standing. But we all know you think that is a bunch of lies and marketing. That would be the High Competition and Stress Formula, and it is way out of your league.


And there have been dogs that won that race that eat Eukanuba and Purina and other worthless brands. What's your point?


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## claybuster (Dec 18, 2008)

RawFedDogs said:


> Have you ever read one word of their promotional material you don't believe?


No, I have found everything what they say to be true.



> I have a saying that is very true and you should pay attention to it. "_Always be wary of information given you by someone who stands to make money off any decision you make based on that information._" You should print those words out in big letters, frame it, and hang it on your wall. :smile:


Good words of wisdom. That also includes dog trainers in my book.



> I do say so because it's true. That information is readily available if you look other places besided Abady's promotional material.


You mean info like in Orijen "White Paper"? The same company that includes Marigold Flowers and lawn weeds like Dandelions? I know of plenty of companies that preach the carnivore theme, but deliver omnivore nutrition.



> I was simply making a point that no one eats a balanced diet every day or even any given day. Besides, what is balance? Who knows? Those that claim to know (and they don't) constantly change the "balance".


Balance is about being properly structured in the diet, everything right and within the correct percentages, all the time.



> It's not. I've been feeding my dogs and cats that way for 7 years with no prolbem. They are fine healthy animals.


So are mine. However I am not feeding my cats good nutrition but they supplement their diets very well outdoors. That counts for something and will help reduce the dangers created by the 'nutritional gap' left by omnivore nutrition.




> I don't need to try the product. It's a kibble that has never been extruded into the little nugets. Nothing more.


But where is the tomato pomace? Beet Pulp, Apples, Garlic, Yucca, Soy? Dandelions? Berries, Cranberries, blue berries? Beans, oats, broccoli, wheat, barley? sun-cured alfalfa, kelp? Flaxseed, Potatoes?



> And there have been dogs that won that race that eat Eukanuba and Purina and other worthless brands. What's your point?


Point is, there is no way dogs can finish the race four paws on the ground with omnivore nutrition. Abady dogs finish in good standing without the necessary supplementation needed to accompany omnivore diets. No musher is going to risk their dogs by feeding more than 25% of the kibble diet regardless of the banner on their backs. They must supplement with meat on the trail, mostly beaver and mink. In other words RFD, they HAVE to cheat to have any hopes of finishing the race. Abady Raw High Stress and Competition and combined with granular high stress formula, is the exclusive diet of the dogs, and finish in good standing with NO supplementation. You are not going to get that out of any kibble, they must be supplemented.


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## CorgiPaws (Mar 31, 2009)

claybuster said:


> So we can assume it happens frequently because it is a common mistake and not an isloated incident.


If you're refering to tooth damage from giving weight-bearing bones like femurs and knuckles to chew...I would say it's a common mistake. Just as feeding crap food is a common mistake. Pleanty of people trying to do what's best for their dogs buy weight bearing bones from large animals for their pups not knowing the dangers of them. After all, they're on the shelf at the pet store, so they must be okay, right?
Plenty of people know that raw bones, or even the junk bones at wal mart have tooth and gum benefits, or they buy them to keep the dogs busy during the day, but not as many people know what bones to stay away from and what's ok. Like I said, when I started bones long ago, I was giving femurs and knuckles left and right. Luckily I learned better before having any accidents and switched to ribs, but many aren't informed enough.
Making the change from Pedigree to a quality kibble or even one step further and going raw is a process of learning more and more. Everyone starts somewhere, and for many, weight bearing bones is the start before learning more.

No one jumps into raw without researching a bit first. Someone that knows nothing about dogs and their nutritional needs is going to pic one up at the shelter, take it home, and just start giving raw meats. I'll hand it to you that you do have to know a thing or two before feeding prey model, but it's really not that complicated. One afternoon in the raw section will do the trick. I'll also hand it to you that RFD can come off as an arrogent jackass (sorry RFD!) at times, but the fact of the matter is when it comes to prey model raw, he knows it forwards, backwards, and upside down. I can definately appreciate his knowledge and experience to help me make right choices for my dogs, because I am only 20, so I definately don't have 7 years of raw experience and research under my belt. But I ALWAYS use his opinion as suggestion, and continue with my own research and what works for me and more importantly: my dogs.
You know Abady forwards, backwards, and upside down. (at least, you know their promotional material and marketing info) Where you become an unreliable source of information on YOUR diet is that you are so blindsighted by it that you just become a walking billboard, and have nothing but their promotional material to back your opinion. You push their product, and back it up only by their info. Where's the crossreferencing? How do you know any of it is true? How do you know you can trust any of it? 
Show me some information that shows the quality of Abady's ingredients, that proves CBPM to be as reliable and nutrient rich as muscle meats that is NOT from Abady themselves.
As for your never-ending "my feed is superior to all" debate, lets let it go. The fact is we all have our own educated opinions on what makes a food great and what doesn't. The purpose of this forum isn't for immature debates between educated individuals with differing opinions (that will never agree, therefore making the discussions pointless). It's for people who are starting to educate themselves to seek opinions, advice, and guidence in making better decisions for their pets from people who have been doing the research for quite some time.


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## claybuster (Dec 18, 2008)

CorgiPaws said:


> If you're refering to tooth damage from giving weight-bearing bones like femurs and knuckles to chew...I would say it's a common mistake. Just as feeding crap food is a common mistake. Pleanty of people trying to do what's best for their dogs buy weight bearing bones from large animals for their pups not knowing the dangers of them. After all, they're on the shelf at the pet store, so they must be okay, right?
> Plenty of people know that raw bones, or even the junk bones at wal mart have tooth and gum benefits, or they buy them to keep the dogs busy during the day, but not as many people know what bones to stay away from and what's ok. Like I said, when I started bones long ago, I was giving femurs and knuckles left and right. Luckily I learned better before having any accidents and switched to ribs, but many aren't informed enough.
> Making the change from Pedigree to a quality kibble or even one step further and going raw is a process of learning more and more. Everyone starts somewhere, and for many, weight bearing bones is the start before learning more.
> 
> ...


Ok, thanks.


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## claybuster (Dec 18, 2008)

CorgiPaws said:


> Show me some information that shows the quality of Abady's ingredients, that proves CBPM to be as reliable and nutrient rich as muscle meats that is NOT from Abady themselves.


You can check some numbers here if you like:

65% Poultry By-Product Meal

http://www.tripleabrandmeatcompany.com/musclemeatspecs.pdf


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## Mlaperformancedogs (Aug 28, 2009)

We feed Nature's logic kibble and raw. The dog's love it. It seems like everyone has already covered everything that I was going to say.


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## jdatwood (Apr 13, 2009)

Wow, where do I even begin...

Quotes taken DIRECTLY from this magical Abady website... :|



> The problem with the current raw diets is that most of them are primarily composed of plant matter which is indigestible to the dog (and cat), even though it is well known that feeding raw plant matter exclusively to dogs will result in starvation, because dogs do not produce the enzymes needed to break down cellulose (there are many other reasons as well).


What TRULY "raw" diet has ANY planet matter? (unless you're feeding green tripe)

I'm so tired of marketing bull**** that these companies use to line their pockets

If you're feeding RAW it's well known that you shouldn't be feeding plant matter since the dogs don't produce the enzymes to break it down...



> Modern raw diets (again, other than those produced by the Abady Company) are, on the whole, improperly focused.


Anything that requires "production" isn't a RAW diet. If the end product requires any processing aside from cutting meat/bone section A from meat/bone section B then it's being over processed.

We feed chicken backs, turkey necks, beef heart, liver (from various animals), whole fish, etc. NONE of which has been processed in any way except to separate it from the other animal parts it used to share a body with



> At the time of the writing of this pamphlet, the Abady Company makes five full-feeding raw diets, four of them proven formulas that have been in existence for up to 30 years.


5 diets? What is the need for 5 diet formulas? This just further enforces the fact they're trying to use marketing to line their pockets. A truly healthy diet for a carnivore requires nothing but meat, bone, and organs. (yes, your precious little lap dog is a carnivore....)



> The raw Abady Formula for Maintenance and Stress is a scientifically advanced and Natural complete and balanced dog food. lt is ideal for maintaining dogs of any size and weight under normal or stressful conditions and for growing puppies that will mature at 60 lb or less at one year of age. This formula, with minor changes, has been in existence since 1972.


I find it horribly distressing that our dogs these days are under such stress that they require a "scientifically advanced and natural complete and balanced dog food" (WTF does that really mean anyways? Where's the research to back up this ridiculous claim?)



> The raw Abady Growth Formula for Puppies of the Large and Giant Breeds is a scientifically advanced and Natural complete and balanced dog food for growing puppies that will weigh more than 60 lb at one year of age. Developed in the mid-1970s, this formula grows puppies of the large and giant breeds in an extraordinary fashion.


"growing puppies"... what are we doing here??? "growing" larger tomatoes or cucumbers?? :lol:

Developed in the mid-70's? Is that something to really brag about? Everything we knew in the 70's even about HUMAN nutrition has been realized the past decade to be complete bull****. They made MAJOR mistakes with the human "food pyramid" and it's unfortunate that we're having to deal with increased cases of diabetes, etc. now because of it



> Mrs. Kaman has demonstrated that Abady foods, when fed as directed, prevent hip dysplasia


It's amusing that feeding an overhyped processed food can prevent a genetically inherited health issue.



> The third product in the Abady arsenal is the complete fresh frozen raw High Stress/High Performance formula for maximizing the performance of show, house, hunting, racing sled dogs, racing greyhounds and whippets, and guard dogs


You can't tell me you fall for this BS? There is a MASSIVE difference between a show dog, hunting dog, racing greyhound, etc. yet this magical formula is pefect for all of them? :lol:



> In some of Abady’s raw diets a small amount of grain helps to regulate glucose levels and moderate growth. Without it some puppies do not grow steadily


Please show me the scientific research that shows that puppies require grain to grow properly *sigh*



> the Abady fresh frozen raw diets are unparalleled in the marketplace and provide the best nutrition in the world


NO processed diet can come close to providing the nutrition that a TRUE RAW diet provides to our animals (cat or dog). 

Please take a step back and think about all of this marketing crap you're falling for. They may be different from the major kibble providers like Science Diet or Purina but in the end they're still using common marketing tactics to persuade you into purchasing their "magical formula" over another.

I have a magical formula for you... buy raw meat, bones & organs and feed them to your pets. They'll love you for it and they'll be the healthiest they could ever get.



Mlaperformancedogs said:


> We feed Nature's logic kibble and raw. The dog's love it. It seems like everyone has already covered everything that I was going to say.


You said the magic word... kibble

If you're feeding RAW, what's the point of the kibble?

ANY processed dog food, be it "kibble" or "raw" can't hold a candle to a TRUE RAW diet of meat, bones and organs. Anything else is glorified marketing to win your food purchase....


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## claybuster (Dec 18, 2008)

jdatwood said:


> Wow, where do I even begin...
> 
> Quotes taken DIRECTLY from this magical Abady website... :|
> 
> ...



Ok, lets take a look at some modern commercial raw diets.

*Raw Advantage:*

16ozOrganicchicken and bone, *organic millet, organic oats, organic carrots, organic zucchini, organic kale, organic beets, organic flaxseed, organic kelp powder, organic wheatgrass, lecithin*, organic garlic powder*.

*Paw Natural:*

Ingredients: Organic Chicken and ground organic chicken bone, organic chicken liver, *organic broccoli, organic carrot, organic celery, organic apple, organic squash, organic sweet potato, organic *chicken gizzard, *organic flax seed, organic safflower oil, organic kelp seaweed,* organic chicken heart, *organic wheat grass, organic parsley, organic cranberry, organic lecithin*, sea salt, zinc proteinate, vitamin E supplement, copper proteinate, manganese proteinate, calcium iodate, and vitamin D3 supplement

*Natures Variety Raw:*

Beef, Beef Liver, Raw Ground Beef Bone, Beef Heart, Beef Kidney, *Apples, Carrots, Butternut Squash, Ground Flaxseed*, Chicken Eggs, *Broccoli, Lettuce, Spinach, Dried Kelp, Apple Cider Vinegar, Parsley*, Honey, Salmon Oil, Olive Oil,* Blueberries, Alfalfa Sprouts, Persimmons*, Duck Eggs, Pheasant Eggs, Quail Eggs, Inulin, *Rosemary, Sage, Clove*

*Primal Raw:*

Chicken, Chicken Necks, Ground Chicken Bones, Chicken Hearts, *Organic Kale, Organic Carrots, Organic Yams*, Chicken Livers, *Organic Broccoli, Organic Apples, Organic Ground Flax Seed, Organic Cranberries, Organic Unfiltered Apple Cider Vinegar, Organic Parsley, Organic Coconut Oil, Organic Kelp, Organic Alfalfa, Organic Garlic*, Mixed Tocopherols (Source of Vitamin E), Organic Grapefruit Seed Extract.

*Total Raw Natural Dog Food:*

Examples of fruit and vegetables we use: *Carrots, cauliflower, broccoli, Swiss chard, celery, spinach, turnips, green/yellow beans, sweet potatoes, garlic, apples, bananas, blue berries, strawberries, cranberries and squash*.


*Bravo:*

Ingredients
Grass-fed beef, grass-fed beef bone, grass-fed beef heart, *yellow squash, turnips, celery*, grass-fed beef liver, grass-fed beef kidney



Yea, I see your point. Abady is just telling lies, a bunch of marketing bull and modem commercial raw diets do not add any veg or fruit. Thanks for sharing your insight.

Keep in mind also, never trust a company with over 37 years of experience in making dog food. Experience counts for nothing you know. Put your trust somewhere else, like one of those companies offering you seaweed in your raw, they know what their doing.

Thanks, your thoughts are right on the money and you've been a help to this group.


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## claybuster (Dec 18, 2008)

Hey all, don't belive any of that BS coming from Abady about modern commercial raw diets being improperly focused. Just look at all those wonderful ingredients highlighted above!


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## RawFedDogs (Jun 16, 2008)

claybuster said:


> Hey all, don't belive any of that BS coming from Abady about modern commercial raw diets being improperly focused. Just look at all those wonderful ingredients highlighted above!


Commercial raw diets are little more than raw kibble. I have always said that. Most raw feeders don't feed commercial raw diets.

*ETA:* While commercial raw food is not the ideal diet, it is far superior to any commercial dry or canned food simply because it is raw.


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## JayJayisme (Aug 2, 2009)

Seems to me that the term "commercial raw" is an oxymoron. Makes no sense on its face. It's either raw or it's processed. To say these commercial raw foods are the same as raw meat and bones is like saying a raisin is identical to a fresh grape.


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## RawFedDogs (Jun 16, 2008)

JayJayisme said:


> To say these commercial raw foods are the same as raw meat and bones is like saying a raisin is identical to a fresh grape.


Back in my beginning days of raw feeding, I bought some commercial raw meals. It was raw meat with pureed raw veggies mixed in and frozen. You buy it frozen and thaw just before feeding.


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## jdatwood (Apr 13, 2009)

claybuster said:


> Hey all, don't belive any of that BS coming from Abady about modern commercial raw diets being improperly focused. Just look at all those wonderful ingredients highlighted above!


I don't consider any of those to be RAW diets. They're still commercially processed food.

When I go buy 300lbs of raw met, bones and organs for our 4 dogs + 1 cat, THAT's what I consider feeding a RAW diet.

Why don't you address some of the points in my previous post instead of getting all hurt and going on the defensive?


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## claybuster (Dec 18, 2008)

jdatwood said:


> Why don't you address some of the points in my previous post instead of getting all hurt and going on the defensive?


Because you have made no point to begin with. Claiming marketing BS is fine, you have not disproved anything they say. Where exactly are they lying? You can cry all you want about marketing BS, but when your situation changes and you can't feed raw, I'm sure you would follow the same path as other raw feeders would...the organic plant seaweed and dandelions of those highly marketed kibbles.

So let's hear some Abady marketing lies. Dogs are not carnivores? Dandelions and seaweed are better than undefatted beef liver? How about Pork Fat lard is yucky and may clog my dogs my arties. What do you got? CBPM is nasty with the heads and feet and yucky beaks? Another food critic he things he knows what he's talking about and all you got is marketing BS you can't disprove.


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## jdatwood (Apr 13, 2009)

If you can't take the time to address my post I won't be bothered with responding to you. It's a waste of time to try having a discussion with someone as yourself that has such a large chip on their shoulder. It's too bad as much could be learned if you'd only read the messages...

My post contained much more than just accusing them of marketing tactics. Maybe you should slow down and actually read what's been posted.



claybuster said:


> when your situation changes and you can't feed raw, I'm sure you would follow the same path as other raw feeders would...the organic plant seaweed and dandelions of those highly marketed kibbles.


What does that even mean? When my "situation changes"? There's nothing that could happen in my life that would prevent my animals from receiving the same diet they get now. I don't believe in a kibble diet


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## claybuster (Dec 18, 2008)

> _Mrs. Kaman has demonstrated that Abady foods, when fed as directed, prevent hip dysplasia_
> 
> It's amusing that feeding an overhyped processed food can prevent a genetically inherited health issue.


 Your lack of understanding is not surprising. Abady tells you when dogs are fed species appropriate (like carnivores), you can eliminate HD. His examples are simple...THERE IS NO HD IN THE WILD. Dogs eating raw diets, natures diets have no HD. Problems that you are gullible to believe that are based upon industry propaganda, you believe are indeed genetics. You are wrong about that for genetics amounts to years of being fed inappropriate 
omnivore diets. Properly nourished bitches will yield puppies with text book perfect hips each and every time. When those pups are fed species appropriate diets and ready to reproduce they will in turn yield pups with perfect hips. That's how you eliminate HD. You can't see that in your limited knowledge and say it is all marketing lies. You are saying nature got it wrong and blame genetics…now that is amusing..


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## jdatwood (Apr 13, 2009)

claybuster said:


> Ok, lets take a look at some modern commercial raw diets.


Why? I don't support COMMERCIAL Raw diets. I never said I did either. While they add "organic" crap to their food they're still adding ingredients that carnivores don't need and can't digest.



> Yea, I see your point. Abady is just telling lies, a bunch of marketing bull and modem commercial raw diets do not add any veg or fruit. Thanks for sharing your insight.


Again, read my post before wasting my time with your psychobabble... Where did I say ANYTHING about COMMERCIAL raw diets not adding fruit, veg, etc?

I said the best diet for your carnivore is RAW meat, bones and organs. Nothing more, nothing less



> Keep in mind also, never trust a company with over 37 years of experience in making dog food. Experience counts for nothing you know. Put your trust somewhere else, like one of those companies offering you seaweed in your raw, they know what their doing.


Again, never said I supported ANY COMMERCIAL raw food...



> Thanks, your thoughts are right on the money and you've been a help to this group.


At least I've addressed some issues instead of just spewing direct marketing quotes from your magical dog food website.


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## DaneMama (Jun 27, 2008)

claybuster said:


> Your lack of understanding is not surprising. Abady tells you when dogs are fed species appropriate (like carnivores), you can eliminate HD. His examples are simple...THERE IS NO HD IN THE WILD. Dogs eating raw diets, natures diets have no HD. Problems that you are gullible to believe that are based upon industry propaganda, you believe are indeed genetics. You are wrong about that for genetics amounts to years of being fed inappropriate
> omnivore diets. Properly nourished bitches will yield puppies with text book perfect hips each and every time. When those pups are fed species appropriate diets and ready to reproduce they will in turn yield pups with perfect hips. That's how you eliminate HD. You can't see that in your limited knowledge and say it is all marketing lies. You are saying nature got it wrong and blame genetics…now that is amusing..


You are 100% wrong here. I know this because I have taken courses in genetics. You clearly have not. Where did you read this crap? 

Genetic material (ie DNA) cannot change because you change a diet from say kibble to RAW. The only way a diet could even be capable of changing the genetic sequence of one dog's DNA would be if the food you fed was radioactive. In which case the dog would be dying from cancer.

The only way that you can get rid of genetically inherited diseases (ie HD) is to breed out that trait. Just like you breed to select for certain traits like body size or coat color. Domestic dogs have HD because it has been perpetuated throughout the population by bad breeding and incorrect inbreeding. Usually, wild dogs such as wolves will not inbreed...which is why HD is not that common among populations. Again, take an ecology class and you will learn this.

I think that you have been completely brainwashed by this food company...I'm sure that is where you found the information on how Abady's food magically gets rid of HD?!?!

If you go and at least read a genetics *TEXT* book you will see what I am saying and what this food company declares to be 100% false.


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## claybuster (Dec 18, 2008)

jdatwood said:


> Why? I don't support COMMERCIAL Raw diets. I never said I did either. While they add "organic" crap to their food they're still adding ingredients that carnivores don't need and can't digest.


Abady is comparing their raw diets with other raw diets in the commercial market, not to the game I shoot, and not your store bought meats. Their diets are better than the rest IMO. That's why I feed their products. The others feed dog like omnivores, and the ingredients reflect that. Abady talks the carnivore theme and delivers it in the ration. Abady's protein is not jeopardized by white rice and they have the strongest animal source protein core in the industry.


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## jdatwood (Apr 13, 2009)

danemama08 said:


> You are 100% wrong here. I know this because I have taken courses in genetics. You clearly have not. Where did you read this crap?


It was probably "learned" from the sales page for Abady and their CLAIM to eliminate hip dysplasia
http://therobertabadydogfoodcoltd.com/hip_dysplasia.htm


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## jdatwood (Apr 13, 2009)

claybuster said:


> Abady is comparing their raw diets with other raw diets in the commercial market, not to the game I shoot, and not your store bought meats. Their diets are better than the rest IMO. That's why I feed their products. The others feed dog like omnivores, and the ingredients reflect that. Abady talks the carnivore theme and delivers it in the ration.


You really need to learn to have a discussion.

First you accuse me of saying things I didn't and then when called on it you throw it back on Abady and not your lack of comprehension



> Abady's protein is not jeopardized by white rice and they have the strongest animal source protein core in the industry.


This is a claim. I have yet to see any research to back up these claims.

Show me some science... if they've been doing this for so long surely they should have something to back it up other than their own claims. 

No worries. I'm not saying Abady is a BAD food BUT nothing beats RAW meat, bones and organs...


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## claybuster (Dec 18, 2008)

danemama08 said:


> You are 100% wrong here. I know this because I have taken courses in genetics. You clearly have not. Where did you read this crap?


Do you know of dogs with HD in the wild? When it comes to HD and dogs genetics is merely a scape-goat. It stems from feeding carnivores omnivore nutrition. Mr. Purina and Mr. Hills want to believe it is genetics to protect profitable omnivore diets. Don't let them think for you. You're smarter than that....nature DID NOT get it wrong.


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## claybuster (Dec 18, 2008)

jdatwood said:


> claybuster: _Abady's protein is not jeopardized by white rice and they have the strongest animal source protein core in the industry_
> 
> This is a claim. I have yet to see any research to back up these claims.



*The protein in rice is considered incomplete because it has lower levels of certain essential amino acids. If all essential amino acids are not present in sufficient quantities the rice protein cannot be used for growth or maintenance of tissues. In this case protein in rice is often burned as fuel or converted into fat and stored. The protein will only be converted to fat if too many calories are consumed.* 

Rice Protein how much protein in different rice grains


So, white rice in itself is too weak to support tissue, therefore how can it jeopardize the protein core? Abady protein core is at 90% + in relationship to the animal source proteins....strongest in the industry.


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## jdatwood (Apr 13, 2009)

You make me laugh. You're really good at copying & pasting from the intarwebs

What's the point of the rice? There's no need for it.

Nothing beats RAW meat, bones and organs


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## DaneMama (Jun 27, 2008)

claybuster said:


> Do you know of dogs with HD in the wild? When it comes to HD and dogs genetics is merely a scape-goat. It stems from feeding carnivores omnivore nutrition. Mr. Purina and Mr. Hills want to believe it is genetics to protect profitable omnivore diets. Don't let them think for you. You're smarter than that....nature DID NOT get it wrong.



HD has a 85% heritability factor, which means that 85% of the HD cases seen in the dog population were inherited (ie passed on from their parents). I learned this from a text book in *COLLEGE*, not from something that I read online or from Mr. Hills or Mr. Purina. A peer reviewed book I might add, with pages and pages of references and scientific results. So you see? I had no other reason to learn this stuff other than passing the class(es)...with all A's I might add.

The front page on your website doesn't even include resources...so what I get from that is that its all what they *CLAIM* to be true with *NO* backup whatsoever. They give you a description of the "feeding program" (they can't legally say study since there is no peer review) but they do not include the conditions of the hips of the parent dogs to begin with. How are you supposed to know if the parental generation did or did not have HD (they don't even say)? They just tell you that the food gets rid of the problem. 

If thats not marketing propaganda then I don't know what is. There is a reason that this food is not a major brand dog food (not necessarily backing any major brand of dog food here, just making a point)...because they would be slaughtered by the media by their claims. There are way too many educated people out there that would call this company out (probably already have).

Please. Do yourself and eveyone else here a favor and get your information somewhere else other than the internet.


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## claybuster (Dec 18, 2008)

jdatwood said:


> First you accuse me of saying things I didn't and then when called on it you throw it back on Abady and not your lack of comprehension...
> 
> 
> No worries. I'm not saying Abady is a BAD food BUT nothing beats RAW meat, bones and organs...


Who started pulling quotes off of Abady magical website claiming BS and lies? We all read the post. Isn't it obvious Abady is comparing their raw diets to the rest in the industry, not to your processed meats you purchase? But you slam the company anyway accusing them of lining their pockets with market bull...so where are they lying...I always ask that question but never seem to get an answer.


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## DaneMama (Jun 27, 2008)

claybuster said:


> Who started pulling quotes off of Abady magical website claiming BS and lies? We all read the post. Isn't it obvious Abady is comparing their raw diets to the rest in the industry, not to your processed meats you purchase? But you slam the company anyway accusing them of lining their pockets with market bull...so where are they lying...I always ask that question but never seem to get an answer.


I also accuse them of lies...read my last post and you will see.


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## claybuster (Dec 18, 2008)

danemama08 said:


> HD has a 85% heritability factor, which means that 85% of the HD cases seen in the dog population were inherited (ie passed on from their parents). I learned this from a text book in *COLLEGE*, not from something that I read online or from Mr. Hills or Mr. Purina.



Did your college text book tell you the diets fed to mothers? Were they raw fed dogs by any chance? Nope, I will not believe it. If they were fed properly they would have had puppies with text book perfect hips. Genetics and HD is just one way the industry attempts to protect itself in keeping with profitable diets (omnivore diets). Hey I went to college as well, Class of '84!


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## claybuster (Dec 18, 2008)

jdatwood said:


> What's the point of the rice? There's no need for it.


Economics, helps bring the costs down for the consumer.


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## DaneMama (Jun 27, 2008)

claybuster said:


> Did your college text book tell you the diets fed to mothers? Were they raw fed dogs by any chance? Nope, I will not believe it. If they were fed properly they would have had puppies with text book perfect hips. Genetics and HD is just one way the industry attempts to protect itself in keeping with profitable diets (omnivore diets). Hey I went to college as well, Class of '84!


The many books and studies I had to read used all the different variables, which includes properly fed parents, or raw (takes more than just a properly fed mother to make puppies with perfect hips, right?). I cannot recall one specific study...it's been a few years since my last genetics class.

May I ask if you have read the same claim anywhere else other than on the Adaby website? And if so can you please show me where?

So you are telling me that the dog food industry is taking control of every biology, genetics, ecology, etc class?! Just so they can control what all the students are learning in college? Seems a bit far fetched to me...

Ever used wikipedia?

I'm happy that you went to college. But I can just tell by the way you think that you did not major in biology or even science. 




claybuster said:


> Economics, helps bring the costs down for the consumer.


So...I thought you said that white rice is better nutritionally for the dog? Not for the consumers pocketbook...


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## claybuster (Dec 18, 2008)

danemama08 said:


> I also accuse them of lies...read my last post and you will see.


Well, I guess everyone thinks Abady is just BS and lies. I don't. I think they are the only company actually hitting you with the truth, and all the rest lie to protect their profitable omnivore nutrition.


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## claybuster (Dec 18, 2008)

danemama08 said:


> So you are telling me that the dog food industry is taking control of every biology, genetics, ecology, etc class?! Just so they can control what all the students are learning in college? Seems a bit far fetched to me...




Are you trying to tell me we should study dogs the same as people? Everything you learn in regards to genetics, biology, etc., the same also applies to us applies to carnivore dog? I don't think so.


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## DaneMama (Jun 27, 2008)

claybuster said:


> Well, I guess everyone thinks Abady is just BS and lies. I don't. I think they are the only company actually hitting you with the truth, and all the rest lie to protect their profitable omnivore nutrition.


You seem very confused about what I am trying to debate with you. In no way am I saying that it's a horrible food out there. Just plainly asking you to back up your statements with something. Seems like you just disregard what I'm trying to discuss with you... Which I must say does NOT help your arguement. Just makes you seem that much more clueless.


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## DaneMama (Jun 27, 2008)

claybuster said:


> Are you trying to tell me we should study dogs the same as people? Everything you learn in regards to genetics, biology, etc., the same also applies to us applies to carnivore dog? I don't think so.


Yes. There are principles you adhere to when it comes to researching things. These apply to anything you happen to be studying. And where did this comment even come from?! You are WAY off base here...


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## claybuster (Dec 18, 2008)

danemama08 said:


> So...I thought you said that white rice is better nutritionally for the dog? Not for the consumers pocketbook...


Nutritionally, no, even Abady will tell you the only contribution white rice can give is carbs, and should be kept to a minimum. Is it nutritionally better or I should say safer than beet pulp...yes, stingbeans...yes...dandelions...yes tomato pomace yes...garlic...yes, soy...yes, gluten...yes, flaxseed...yes...etc, etc, etc. White rice is a safe ingredient for dogs, unlike the toxins people are paying for in even those high end kibbles. Is the ideal ‘economic’ ingredient for dogs.


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## DaneMama (Jun 27, 2008)

I think I'm done trying to debate with you about this since it's obviously one sided.


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## RawFedDogs (Jun 16, 2008)

danemama08 said:


> I think I'm done trying to debate with you about this since it's obviously one sided.


The problem is that we aren't debating CB, we are debating Abady marketing department. CB has absolutely nothing to say that isn't in their promotional material. I think we won this debate weeks ago, CB just doesn't realize it yet. :smile:


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## claybuster (Dec 18, 2008)

RawFedDogs said:


> The problem is that we aren't debating CB, we are debating Abady marketing department. CB has absolutely nothing to say that isn't in their promotional material. I think we won this debate weeks ago, CB just doesn't realize it yet. :smile:


 Hey, I have science on my side. And it is not complicated science. HD happens across all breeds lines and across the country. What does this tell you? How can it be anything but food caused? Hey thumbs up to all you raw feeders, you're doing the best thing for your pets. But you don't even comprehend the power your diets and their capability to sustain life without the need for medical intervention. Yes, when dogs are fed appropriately you can wipe out HD within your dogs over time. How can that not be so? It is omnivore nutrition that has created all the problems with our pets.

It is the 'nutritional gap' that must be overcome created by commercial omnivore nutrition . Abady tells you there are 3 ways to achieve this (overcome the nutrition gap). The gap is created by diets seriously deficient in animal source proteins.

A) Feed Abady diets that are species-appropriate carnivore rations, the only in the market place.

B) This is what you folks do (raw feeders). Feed home-prepared meat based rations.

C) Attempt to overcome the nutritional gap with the appropriate vitamin supplementation.

That's it, you have 3 options to beat the nutritional gap created by commercial omnivore nutrition. Breakdowns like HD are a product of omnivore nutrition. They have interests to protect and profit. Yes, they will simply blame in on genetics. Keep in mind, HD happens across the country and across breed lines...genetics. Don't blame omnivore nutrition, it must be genetics. Come on, do you really believe that? Mother Nature is that bad and screwed up all these animals hips? Genetics? No, am I not buying that at all.

All you folks offer to the debate table is that food stinks and it's marketing BS, and don't even realize the power behind the raw diets you feed and what they can accomplish. I can all but guarantee you this, have mothers yield pups that have been raw feed, the pups will have perfect hips. And when good nutrition continues with the pups, and their pups, so on down the line, you got HD beat. It is no mystery what causes these problems with our dogs. They (the industry)want to make it a mystery.

I understand your skepticism. It works. Its logical. Feeding dogs very well eliminates a lot of problems. I know it all sound very bizarre, but it works. Abady diets are designed to overcome that nutritional gap created by commercial omnivore nutrition.


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## RawFedDogs (Jun 16, 2008)

claybuster said:


> A) Feed Abady diets that are species-appropriate carnivore rations, the only in the market place.


Which is about 50% refuse from human chicken processing plants and 50% grain.



> B) This is what you folks do (raw feeders). Feed home-prepared meat based rations.


Not exactly "meat based". More like 100% animal source meat, bones, and organs.



> C) Attempt to overcome the nutritional gap with the appropriate vitamin supplementation.


Haven't given a dog a vitamin in 7 years.



> Don't blame omnivore nutrition, it must be genetics. Come on, do you really believe that?


Yes absolutely and I can prove it. Read this study Genetics of canine hip dysplasia. [J Am Vet Med Assoc. 1997] - PubMed Result

If you want more, I can produce many other studies that prove the same thing. I haven't seen you produce any studies to back up your claims. You can't even produce Abady studies. Wonder why?



> Mother Nature is that bad and screwed up all these animals hips? Genetics? No, am I not buying that at all.


Doesn't matter if you buy it or not and it's not Mother Nature that screwed up, its poor breeding by humans. I suspect mostly by show breeders with their "line breeding" and other questionable practices.



> All you folks offer to the debate table is that food stinks and it's marketing BS, and don't even realize the power behind the raw diets you feed and what they can accomplish.


Their food is relatively good. Just not the best. Their marketing is BS. And ... Are you crazy?? We are the ones feeding a raw diet, many of us for years. We see the results every single day. I can't believe you could make a statement like that. :smile:



> Abady diets are designed to overcome that nutritional gap created by commercial omnivore nutrition.


They are designed to sell dog food ... nothing more. They are a grain based highly processed product that has been liberally labeled as dog food.


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## jdatwood (Apr 13, 2009)

claybuster said:


> Hey, I have science on my side. And it is not complicated science.


You do? What science is on your side? 

Let's compare sides here...

*Hip Dysplasia is genetic - 

*^ Canine hip dysplasia

^ Osteoarthritis: canine and feline (cat and dog) veterinary factsheets
Osteoarthritis: canine and feline (cat and dog) veterinary factsheets

^ Ettinger, Stephen J.;Feldman, Edward C. (1995). Textbook of Veterinary Internal Medicine (4th ed. ed.). W. B. Saunders Company. ISBN 0-7216-6795-
Book sources - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

^ Pitcairn, Richard H.; Pitcairn, Susan Hubble (2005). Dr. Pitcairn's Complete Guide to Natural Health for Dogs & Cats. Rodale. ISBN 9781579549732.
Book sources - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

^ Hip Dysplasia: canine and feline (cat and dog) veterinary factsheets
Hip Dysplasia: canine and feline (cat and dog) veterinary factsheets

^ Arthritis in the Dog

^ Terry DE, Rees-Milton K, Smith P, Carran J, Pezeshki P, Woods C, Greer P, Anastassiades TP. (2005). "N-acylation of glucosamine modulates chondrocyte growth, proteoglycan synthesis, and gene expression". J. Rheumatol. 32 (9): 1775-86. PMID 16142878.
N-acylation of glucosamine modulates chondrocyte g...[J Rheumatol. 2005] - PubMed Result

^ Canine hip dysplasia

^ "BioScaffold Reduces Pain and Lameness in Dogs with Osteoarthrits: July 2009 Report".
http://www.trmatrix.com/uploads/OsteoArthritis_Study_TRBIO_71509.pdf

I'm happy to find more for you although I know it won't change anything because you're so brainwashed by the Abady marketing department.


*Hip Dysplasia is caused by poor diet (omnivore diet)
*http://therobertabadydogfoodcoltd.com/

and....???




> HD happens across all breeds lines and across the country. What does this tell you?


Ummm.... it tells me that it's a SPECIES related issue. Why 



> Hey thumbs up to all you raw feeders, you're doing the best thing for your pets. But you don't even comprehend the power your diets and their capability to sustain life without the need for medical intervention.


You've gotta be kidding me... that's WHY we're feeding RAW. We know it's the best thing for our pets AND we KNOW the POWER of the diet (why else would we deal with all of this raw meat? 



> Breakdowns like HD are a product of omnivore nutrition.


See above in the post. I have science on MY side. You have a marketing department



> All you folks offer to the debate table is that food stinks and it's marketing BS


At least we're addressing your side of the issue. You just continue to side step our side ignoring what's said so you can just push your agenda



> It is no mystery what causes these problems with our dogs.


You're right. It's poor breeding that's made it such an epidemic. Thank goodness we have science to show us something concrete like genetics, not just some website that is trying to sell dog food.



> Feeding dogs very well eliminates a lot of problems.


Now this is something we can agree on. Feeding a RAW diet of meat, bone and organs CAN eliminate a LOT of health problems dogs & cats are seeing these days. That's VERY easy to see...

My wolf hybrid has hip dysplasia. Unfortunately even a RAW diet won't help her hips get better. She's not going to enjoy a long and pain free life like our Great Danes are. Fortunately I'll do everything in my power to make sure what life she does have she enjoys and gets the best nutrition available to her (NOT processed commercial dog food like Science Diet, Purina, or Abady)


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## claybuster (Dec 18, 2008)

All you people have in regards to genetics are industry connected veterinarians protecting the industries profitable diets. You folks are the used car salesman's favorite customer.

They even write doctoral thesis of benefits of kibble and how it cleans teeth. Yes, I'm sure you all believe that one as well, especially if it was written by a veterinarian.

And you think I'm the one who is gullible....lol. 

Cheap profitable omnivore kibble diets will be protected by the industry, and they do that with skewed studies and test results, including HD and genetics.

Remember, across all breed lines and across the country, but don't whatever you do don't blame the food. Wake up people.


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## jdatwood (Apr 13, 2009)

Guess what, same stuff different day.

You have your theory supported by your dog food's marketing department. That's it. We're supposed to believe that EVERY scientific study is skewed by the dog food companies YET we're supposed to trust the marketing materials of Abady blindly...??

Til you can back it up with something aside from your gut feeling I think I'm done here

You refuse to address the point in ANY of our posts. You just continue spewing the same crap from post to post.

Have fun & enjoy. Just remember that RAW meat, bones, and organs are the best thing you can feed your pets!


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## RawFedDogs (Jun 16, 2008)

claybuster said:


> All you people have in regards to genetics are industry connected veterinarians protecting the industries profitable diets.


CB, you obviously didn't follow the link in my last post. It was a SCIENTIFIC study of a group of GSD's and how HD was reduced in them through selective breeding. I assume they ate kibble throughout the 5 generation study. So if genetics play no part, how were they able to breed out the HD while on the same diet????

You are out of options now, CD. You have lost. Admit it. :smile:

BTW: I originated the used car salesman angle months ago and used it on you. HAHAHAHAHA Obviously you forgot. :smile:


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## DaneMama (Jun 27, 2008)

RawFedDogs said:


> The problem is that we aren't debating CB, we are debating Abady marketing department. CB has absolutely nothing to say that isn't in their promotional material. I think we won this debate weeks ago, CB just doesn't realize it yet. :smile:


Very true. And thanks...seems like I'm not done yet LOL

CB seems to be the only spokesperson for this company and I must say CB is doing a horrible job at keeping a positive image of it. Actually, I think CB is driving people away by highlighting all of the FALSE claims that this company adheres to.

If all the things this company claims were true, ie curing HD, GVD, thyroid disease, etc...they would be raking in the money and everyone would be feeding it to get rid of these crippling diseases. But this company is basically unheard of, which means that its marketing team clearly has flaws...ie hiding behind false claims for all the misinformed out there to believe.

*Claybuster: Please. If you want to do any good by this thread...Please post up at LEAST 3 different PEER reviewed sources to back up the claims that your precious company uses. That way you can at least show that its not just the company and yourself that believe this. That would acutally bring a debate to the table...and prove to us that there is at least some SCIENCE behind this. I think that is what you have been trying to do...but miserably failing.*


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## claybuster (Dec 18, 2008)

jdatwood said:


> Guess what, same stuff different day.
> 
> You have your theory supported by your dog food's marketing department.




And you folks theory are supported by the industry, the makers of omnivore kibble diets. Great! You folks fall hook line and sinker for what THEY want you to believe. Vets and their studies are indeed connected with industry propaganda. Your genetic studies, all probably backed with grant money by Purina. Get real people.

You've got no debate. Clearly I am the only one here who does NOT let the industry and their connected vets speak for me. You folks want to believe that hogwash coming from Purina's grant money, go right ahead...not me.


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## jdatwood (Apr 13, 2009)

And you're obviously too dense to have a 2 sided conversation.

PUT UP OR SHUT UP. All you have is your opinion and Abady's marketing department.

Either provide something concrete or leave it alone


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## claybuster (Dec 18, 2008)

jdatwood said:


> And you're obviously too dense to have a 2 sided conversation.
> 
> PUT UP OR SHUT UP. All you have is your opinion and Abady's marketing department.
> 
> Either provide something concrete or leave it alone


More Abady Marketing, and this is what you don't see or to ignorant to comprehend. You raw feeders don't even understand the power behind the diets you feed? It's absurd. HD...genetics. Bloat...luck of the draw.... rotten teeth....kibble will help this. You people fall what ever the industry want you to believe...why? Because you don't understand the power behind your diets. You raw feeders all got nothing but industry propaganda, and the is the exact reason we read these comical posts. RFD has been asked the question, I can't feed raw so what do I do? RFD answer coincides with industry propaganda, because he just doesn’t get it when it comes to what makes omnivore nutrition and falls for THAT marketing. Try this because it's biological appropriate with COMPETE disregard for ingredients. For Christ's Sake it has Marigold flowers and dandelions. RFD has lost all creditability as far as I'm concerned when you go around telling people that would be the next best thing, omnivore nutrition, diets with apples and blueberries, marigold flower and Saskatoon berries. Get real man.

You don't understand the concepts, you don't understand the power, you don't understand how the industry works to protect it's profitable interest. All you offer to debate is throw a piece of meat on the ground, and at the same time say nothing but that sucks and it's marketing. You people can't even debate your way out of a paper bag it seems to me because you offer nothing.

NOW THINK ABOUT THIS...THIS IS REALITY....THIS IS WHAT PEOPLE INCLUDING RAW FEEDERS FAIL TO RECONGIZE....




> *Big Industry arbitrarily declares that the dog is an omnivore, even though there is no scientific back-up for this claim.
> Big Industry connected veterinarians write the texts on canine nutrition that are used in Veterinary Schools to train other veterinarians, therefore many veterinarians believe that what Big Industry tells them is true.
> While it is up to the reader to decide what Big Industry's motives might be in classifying the dog as an omnivore, it is a fact that Big industry makes much more money selling omnivore-targeted diets than it ever could selling carnivore-targeted diets.*


I don't care to read your pub med reports written by Veterinarians. There is nothing to compare. It all has the same goal in mind...DON'T BLAME THE FOOD. It is all the same, even your posh top of the line kibbles...it is omnivore nutrition, just look at the ingredients. You should not let one apple (white rice) spoil and entire barrel when the feed is freaking trying to do some justice for the animal. You raw feeders don't see that. If you're squeamish about by-product meals and lard delivering the goods, then stay away. I will never believe you when you try to tell me their concepts are flawed. You may not like their marketing, their concept of feeding is right on the money.


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## claybuster (Dec 18, 2008)

You want some science? You can't handle science. Science is whatever big industry wants you to believe, just don't blame the food.

Read and learn. Learn about what independent science in dog food is all about, and not the science that advances omnivore nutrition. I'll trust with the independent research of a bio-chemist up against your industry connected Vets any day of the week. This food is about all about science.

A SCIENTIFIC STUDY OF THE HIDDEN DANGERS INHERENT IN MANY ANIMAL FEEDS.


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## claybuster (Dec 18, 2008)

Here is a quote from the above link:



> Industry-connected scientists have advanced a number of theories as to the cause of bloat over the years, including the theory that bloat is caused by genetic factors. More recently, however, these scientists have moved away from the genetic explanation and now believe that bloat may be the result of gulping atmospheric air. They even seem to imply that bloat may be a punishment for gluttony. This theory, like the genetic theory, has no scientific merit, since dogs naturally gulp their feed (particularly if fed chunks of raw meat) and do not develop bloat. Air is also mobile, it will not accumulate as long as there is nothing preventing its escape. If air did indeed accumulate inside the stomach, its pressure would be greater than that of the air entering the stomach and it would escape. It is no more possible to cause bloat by gulping atmospheric air than it is possible to inflate a balloon by merely holding open its end.


I can picture it now. All you have to read is a few pub med reports about gulping air causes bloat...And you would all fall for that BS because you read it in a pub med report...or a text book with scientific studies done by industry connected vets. Again, you all GOT NO DEBATE.


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## claybuster (Dec 18, 2008)

danemama08 said:


> But this company is basically unheard of, which means that its marketing team clearly has flaws...ie hiding behind false claims for all the misinformed out there to believe.


Maybe in your circles, but not those heading to Madison Square Garden.
They don't need to market to you, people find them.

I know someone who visited the place in NY. They got the impression mom & pop style company, they are no Raulstin Purina that's for sure. Yet, they carry with them world wide reptuation and distribution.


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## claybuster (Dec 18, 2008)

jdatwood said:


> And you're obviously too dense to have a 2 sided conversation.
> 
> PUT UP OR SHUT UP. All you have is your opinion and Abady's marketing department.
> 
> Either provide something concrete or leave it alone


Stop your crying like a little baby because you lost a debate...need a tissue...boo hoo.


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## jdatwood (Apr 13, 2009)

claybuster said:


> Stop your crying like a little baby because you lost a debate...need a tissue...boo hoo.


Thanks for proving my point. 

You have nothing to defend your position so now you're resorting to personal attacks 

I haven't come close to losing a debate. You lost the second you started posting. You bring nothing to the table in the discussion.

The ONLY thing you've managed to post is YOUR opinion and that of Abady. You have brought forth no studies, no science, NADA.

No crying here. I know that I'm feeding my pets 100% the BEST diet I can provide for them (REGARDLESS OF MY PERSONAL SITUATION :wink

What's your excuse for feeding a COMMERCIAL DIET instead of RAW (meat, bones & organs)???


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## claybuster (Dec 18, 2008)

jdatwood said:


> What's your excuse for feeding a COMMERCIAL DIET instead of RAW (meat, bones & organs)???


Chicken By-product Meal and Lard achieves the same results. And I don't have the added expense of running a freezer. It's got meat, bones and organs already in the CBPM. It actually deliver more than what you got. I got more animal source proteins in 1 cup of granular than you have in your commercial bought store meats. 800 cals per cup, and you'd be lucky if you get that in 2 cups. Your not even in the same ballpark. You must be RFDs alter ego here. How many user names you got RFD? You ain't fooling anybody guy. Hey look, they even use the same signature stuff...feeding raw since...
Feeding Granular since '02 and guess what, I haven't given my dog a vitamin in 7 years just like you, and no weird trips to the vet. Know why? Because it's just as effective as what you do, minus the steroids and hormones.

Hey, you've been attacking me ever since you jumped into this thread, so get a Kleenex, dry up, and try to use some logic in a debate come up with something more than attacking truthful marketing. Let's hear something like how yucky CBPM is, you may do better there.


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