# Does this seem fishy to you...



## biancaDB

A woman came through the store the other day with a bull mastiff puppy. He was about 6 months old and she was adament about getting a prong collar for him. Now, at our store, we don't order prong collars because we feel there are too many people who will use them incorrectly and without seeking the proper training SO some other suggestions were mad. She still wanted the prong collar!! She hadn't enrolled him in any sort of puppy classes yet and wasn't planning to. It seemed as if she wanted a quick fix to what was obviously a lack of training and an over-excited puppy. We told her that if she got a prong collar and didn't learn how to properly use it, it would most likely become a battle between her and her dog. NOW ... this is where it gets a little questionable...she said that her sister breeds bull mastiffs and that this is where her puppy is from. She said that her sister uses a prong collar on ALL of her dogs/ puppies and that they are ALL this hyper and out of control and that its just in the breeds nature to act this way. Again, a few other suggestions were presented but she continued to go on about how her sister is a breeder and that she told her to get one etc etc. Needless to say, she ended up leaving empty handed.

So my questions are...is it normal for breeders to utilise prong collars on all of their dogs and suggest it to their buyers? Do you think this supposed "breeder" is just a byb ? Aren't the parents supposed to have sound temperments? The woman kept saying how her sisters dogs were all like this, including the parents... so no formal training done on any of the dogs?? It all just seems strange to me and I'm thinking this "breeder" isn't a very reputable one. What are your thoughts?


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## Jimm

They are not reputable because they use prong collars and have dogs with energy and character?
Prong collars are excellent. Beats any other collar for training any day of the week.


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## biancaDB

No, that's not what I said and I never said prong collars are the worst thing ever. I just don't understand why thats the first recomendation instead of trying puppy class and obedience training.


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## naturalfeddogs

I didn't think mastiffs were that high strung. Being that they are a giant,strong breed I think classes are a good thing. It sounds to me almost like are just trying to "overpower" in order to get control. That said, I also think her sister is a byb and just dosn't do anything with her dogs but breed. I just don't know that those prong collars are the answer.


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## Little Brown Jug

I bet on my boys' life that this breeder sister of hers is a back yard breeder who's only in it for a quick buck. I have nothing against prong collars, I use one for Woof. But on a puppy? Before even trying training without? Sounds to me she wanted a quick fix. I feel bad for that puppy and her sister's dogs and wonder what will happen to them once they can't be bred or become too big of an inconvience.


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## twoisplenty

I am finding to many people jump to using a prong collar right off the bat. It should be the last resort not the first. Here a very recent story:

I have a puppy client that was dealing with pulling on their 7 mth old boxer pup. I suggested they go to puppy classes or hire a private trainer to help them address this issue. They ended up hiring a private trainer who saw the puppy on their very first meeting and said "this dog needs a prong collar". They fitted her with one (the trainer had one handy) and the training began. 2 weeks later they are at the vets office for a routine check up and the puppy got excited, when she got excited the collar has slipped to the base of her neck and became tight, the dog panicked, thrashed on the floor, the vet team surrounding her trying to get the damn collar off of her, she passed out. She was rushed into the back, placed in the O2 tent, colour came back, ultrasounds done to assess the damage...... The puppy had seriously damaged her trachea and esophagus. She required 1 week in ICU being tube fed and needed a tracheotamy because her throat had swelled shut. This just happened 2 mths ago. 

People want instant results and do not want to put in the time to properly train their dogs. This trainer knew they had 8 weeks to get results so they jumped straight to the prong collar. 

Please dont get me wrong, some dogs benefit from this collar. It is usually the last resort after several other options have been tried BUT it should never be used as a first option especially on a growing still developing puppy.


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## NewYorkDogue

Oh. My. Goodness. Well, I'm not a breeder (nor a trainer), but I definitely agree with you about prong collars being a "quick fix", especially if she has no intention of training the dog. What is that about?! 

My Mastiff puppy is 6.5 months old and training with him is ongoing and consistent. I don't use a prong collar, and don't even use a choke chain (right now, he is sporting a very handsome leather Martingale collar.) He has a good "heel" already, and along with other basic commands, I am working on a more controlled, yet relaxed, walking style, using the word, "easy" if he wants to pull out of excitement. Again, consistency and patience is paying off--- as well as treats and praise.
(In reality, he tends to lag behind me more often than not, rather than pull...).

Back to the breeder/prong collar issue-- I know the breeder I got Mateo from doesn't use them-- and maybe it would be a red flag if ALL of her Dogues were wearing them.) Also, they were not in the least "hyper" or out of control... I would suspect BYB in your customer's case.

Mastiffs grow to be large dogs, very large. And I don't believe you are going to win any battle of wills against a 150 pound dog with a prong collar and no training.


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## biancaDB

If used appropriately, prong collars can be effective and I have nothing against those who use them! i just feel that there are a lot of people out there who jump to the prong collar for training instead of trying other methods first which is why I do not order them in my store! like *twoisplenty* said, it SHOULD be the last resort! and *Little Brown Jug*, I agree. That was another concern of mine. What will this woman do if her prong collar doesn't train this dog and she doesn't want to enroll him in training classes? will he be surrendered to a shelter or given away? She had also made a comment about how it was impossible to take the dog out trick or treating with her kids because the dog wanted to play with all the children and she couldn't control him.


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## xellil

twoisplenty said:


> I am finding to many people jump to using a prong collar right off the bat. It should be the last resort not the first. Here a very recent story:
> 
> I have a puppy client that was dealing with pulling on their 7 mth old boxer pup. I suggested they go to puppy classes or hire a private trainer to help them address this issue. They ended up hiring a private trainer who saw the puppy on their very first meeting and said "this dog needs a prong collar". They fitted her with one (the trainer had one handy) and the training began. 2 weeks later they are at the vets office for a routine check up and the puppy got excited, when she got excited the collar has slipped to the base of her neck and became tight, the dog panicked, thrashed on the floor, the vet team surrounding her trying to get the damn collar off of her, she passed out. She was rushed into the back, placed in the O2 tent, colour came back, ultrasounds done to assess the damage...... The puppy had seriously damaged her trachea and esophagus. She required 1 week in ICU being tube fed and needed a tracheotamy because her throat had swelled shut. This just happened 2 mths ago.
> 
> People want instant results and do not want to put in the time to properly train their dogs. This trainer knew they had 8 weeks to get results so they jumped straight to the prong collar.
> 
> Please dont get me wrong, some dogs benefit from this collar. It is usually the last resort after several other options have been tried BUT it should never be used as a first option especially on a growing still developing puppy.


I am not doubting what you were told - i do kinda doubt that a prong collar could crush a windpipe, as there would never be pressure from more than a single prong at any one spot. And if they had a trainer who would fit a collar to go to the very bottom of the neck, that is a very bad trainer.

Regardless, I don't think i would use a prong collar on a puppy. I've not raised a puppy so I couldn't say for sure, but it seems to me if you teach them not to pull when they are young and easily managed they would never need one.

I am a firm believer that 99% of trainers are in it for the money. It doesn't surprise me that one would take the easy way out - unfortunately their customer felt the same way.


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## Jimm

Who cares what she is going to do.It is her dog.If she wants to keep it or put it down it is her choice.
I don't think a prong collar should be the last resort. Once you have an idea what you are doing then it is up to you to make the decision. Some dogs are not going to get any better with any other method and to me it seems pointless wasting months of training when you know you will have to use a prong to get results with a particular dog.


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## Herzo

Well I have a Bullmastiff, she is on the small side and I wouldn't say she is necessarily from the best of breeders however also not from the worst. She is my first one but she has been the most easy to get along with dogs I have ever had. She has had no puppy class or formal training but I can tell you she does not like me to disapprove of anything she does. She is so gentle and kind, not sure how many of them are this way but she sure is. There would never be a need to put her in one of these collars never. I am not an expert on the breed but I don't think they are suppose to be hyper, that was my understanding on all the stuff I read on them before getting Marlo. They say that some can be dog aggressive but mine isn't that ether.

It sounds like these are ether poor breeding or not getting at all what they need in training and or exercise. I'm also going with her sister is a bad back yard breeder.


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## DogLuver

I think the breeder was probably a back yard breeder, the sister would not be proud to brag/talk about high strung Bull Mastiffs if she were a reputable breeder, as that is not a characteristic potential buyers are looking for in a Bull Mastiff I'm sure??? A reputable breeder would train her dogs accordingly if they are "hyper, and out of control", and a reputable breeder would know better than to send puppies that are "hyper and out of control" out in to the world, and then recommend every buyer use a prong collar....yikes! 

Whether or not the lady will have been affected by you not selling her a prong collar is another story, I'm sure she went to the next closest place and bought one without giving it any thought, but good job trying to educate her  

I am not against prong collars at all, and some dogs need them. But a 6 month old "hyper and out of control" pup needs some solid training first, and a chance to prove himself, not some inexperienced person who was told to use a prong collar pokin his neck  poor little guy. 

My sister has a 5mth old Bull Mastiff pup, and compared to my 4.5mth old Great Dane pup, he sure is handful, and it is in the breed that they are "stubborn, excited dogs", but......we're signed up for puppy classes together on Monday  yay! I'm glad my sister is trying the classes before a prong collar of coarse. And even though my sister bought her pup from a BYB, she was able to see the parents (I went with her) and they were very calm, beautiful, gentle dogs.


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## biancaDB

Jimm said:


> Who cares what she is going to do.It is her dog.If she wants to keep it or put it down it is her choice.
> I don't think a prong collar should be the last resort. Once you have an idea what you are doing then it is up to you to make the decision. Some dogs are not going to get any better with any other method and to me it seems pointless wasting months of training when you know you will have to use a prong to get results with a particular dog.


How would she know if basic training would help her dog if she jumps to use the prong collar first? My dog had a handful of issues that were corrected by consistant training and he was a high energy dog as well. You won't "waste" your time training if you stick to it and stay consistant.


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## Little Brown Jug

I don't belive any training is a waste of time. I don't even think training and waste should be used in the same sentence without the user being struck by lightning.


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## Jimm

I think it would depend on how much the person knows about dogs. Some dogs you know will just need regular easy training while others are going to make it difficult.


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## Little Brown Jug

If a person is unable to train themselves and is unwilling to even entertain the thought of enrolling into a training class they shouldn't have a dog much less a breed with such power.


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## RCTRIPLEFRESH5

is a prong collar a spiked collar for dog fighting?


biancaDB said:


> A woman came through my store the other day with a bull mastiff puppy. He was about 6 months old and she was adament about getting a prong collar for him. Now, at my store, we don't order prong collars because we feel there are too many people who will use them incorrectly and without seeking the proper training SO I made a few other suggestions. She still wanted the prong collar!! She hadn't enrolled him in any sort of puppy classes yet and wasn't planning to. It seemed as if she wanted a quick fix to what was obviously a lack of training and an over-excited puppy. I told her that if she got a prong collar and didn't learn how to properly use it, it would most likely become a battle between her and her dog. NOW ... this is where it gets a little questionable...she said that her sister breeds bull mastiffs and that this is where her puppy is from. She said that her sister uses a prong collar on ALL of her dogs/ puppies and that they are ALL this hyper and out of control and that its just in the breeds nature to act this way. Again, I made a few other suggestions but she continued to go on about how her sister is a breeder and that she told her to get one etc etc. Needless to say, she ended up leaving empty handed.
> 
> So my questions are...is it normal for breeders to utilise prong collars on all of their dogs and suggest it to their buyers? Do you think this supposed "breeder" is just a byb ? Aren't the parents supposed to have sound temperments? The woman kept saying how her sisters dogs were all like this, including the parents... so no formal training done on any of the dogs?? It all just seems strange to me and I'm thinking this "breeder" isn't a very reputable one. What are your thoughts?


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## RCTRIPLEFRESH5

what is ''small'' lol!


Herzo said:


> Well I have a Bullmastiff, she is on the small side and I wouldn't say she is necessarily from the best of breeders however also not from the worst. She is my first one but she has been the most easy to get along with dogs I have ever had. She has had no puppy class or formal training but I can tell you she does not like me to disapprove of anything she does. She is so gentle and kind, not sure how many of them are this way but she sure is. There would never be a need to put her in one of these collars never. I am not an expert on the breed but I don't think they are suppose to be hyper, that was my understanding on all the stuff I read on them before getting Marlo. They say that some can be dog aggressive but mine isn't that ether.
> 
> It sounds like these are ether poor breeding or not getting at all what they need in training and or exercise. I'm also going with her sister is a bad back yard breeder.


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## biancaDB

Little Brown Jug said:


> I don't belive any training is a waste of time. I don't even think training and waste should be used in the same sentence without the user being struck by lightning.


how do i "like" this !?!?

and thank you, DogLuver I try my best. unfortunately, theres just no reasoning with some people but I don't like to push people, just provide them with good information and hope they make a good choice!


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## Little Brown Jug

No its used as a training aid to help with pulling for the most part. It doesn't hurt the dog unless used incorrectly, just gives them a good poke.


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## biancaDB

RCTRIPLEFRESH5 said:


> is a prong collar a spiked collar for dog fighting?


It's a collar often used as a training tool and can be effective if used correctly.. however sometimes people use it for all the wrong reasons


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## magicre

NewYorkDogue said:


> Oh. My. Goodness. Well, I'm not a breeder (nor a trainer), but I definitely agree with you about prong collars being a "quick fix", especially if she has no intention of training the dog. What is that about?!
> 
> My Mastiff puppy is 6.5 months old and training with him is ongoing and consistent. I don't use a prong collar, and don't even use a choke chain (right now, he is sporting a very handsome leather Martingale collar.) He has a good "heel" already, and along with other basic commands, I am working on a more controlled, yet relaxed, walking style, using the word, "easy" if he wants to pull out of excitement. Again, consistency and patience is paying off--- as well as treats and praise.
> (In reality, he tends to lag behind me more often than not, rather than pull...).
> 
> Back to the breeder/prong collar issue-- I know the breeder I got Mateo from doesn't use them-- and maybe it would be a red flag if ALL of her Dogues were wearing them.) Also, they were not in the least "hyper" or out of control... I would suspect BYB in your customer's case.
> 
> Mastiffs grow to be large dogs, very large. And I don't believe you are going to win any battle of wills against a 150 pound dog with a prong collar and no training.


please tell me what you think of martingale collars...you're a fan, yes? i know nothing about them....


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## DogLuver

Jimm said:


> I think it would depend on how much the person knows about dogs. Some dogs you know will just need regular easy training while others are going to make it difficult.


It definitely depends on how much the person knows about dogs, and specifically training with prong collars in this case...but in this specific case, the sister of the breeder kept saying that all Bull Mastiffs are "hyper and out of control" because she breeds them, and knows this, assuming it's OK to use a prong collar on all her offspring, this is not good, and really shows how much she knows about dogs, and how much the sister knows about dogs to follow this advice. That is why we're all assuming this lady was a BYB, just FYI 

I don't disagree with you at all...some dogs are going to need a prong collar, but these puppies are not given the chance when the breeder is recommending all the puppies need them off the hop because she has "hyper out of control" dogs that she's breeding. Reputable breeders try to "better a breed" by breeding good tempered, healthy dogs. Breeding "hyper out of control" dogs, and saying "oh that's just how Bull Mastiff's are" is not trying to "better a breed" at all.


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## KittyKat

magicre said:


> please tell me what you think of martingale collars...you're a fan, yes? i know nothing about them....


I use them on my dog (she's a whippet). The martingale was designed for sighthounds as their necks are larger then their heads and they can often slip out of buckler collars. It also provides control without chocking the dog, and sigththounds have larger windpipes which can easily be injured. When walking on a lose leash the collar is loose around the dogs neck and only tightens when the dog pulls. 

The ones i have go from 1.5" wide to 2" - they are stylish and I love them. 

I was told by a trainer that they are not as great for training, i suppose because if you do a correction there will be a delay.... but i never got another style as i prefer martingales.










Edit: The image in my signature shows the classic "loop" of the martingale style collar. The collar does not buckle up, and simply slips over the dogs head. It's not something that is worn all the time, generally when you are just out and about.


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## Tobi

magicre said:


> please tell me what you think of martingale collars...you're a fan, yes? i know nothing about them....


We use one for Tobi as well  very nice, and custom


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## biancaDB

KittyKat said:


> I use them on my dog (she's a whippet). The martingale was designed for sighthounds as their necks are larger then their heads and they can often slip out of buckler collars. It also provides control without chocking the dog, and sigththounds have larger windpipes which can easily be injured. When walking on a lose leash the collar is loose around the dogs neck and only tightens when the dog pulls.
> 
> The ones i have go from 1.5" wide to 2" - they are stylish and I love them.
> 
> I was told by a trainer that they are not as great for training, i suppose because if you do a correction there will be a delay.... but i never got another style as i prefer martingales.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Edit: The image in my signature shows the classic "loop" of the martingale style collar. The collar does not buckle up, and simply slips over the dogs head. It's not something that is worn all the time, generally when you are just out and about.


really glad to hear that you own a whippet! This was actually the breed I've been looking into for when I'm ready for a new dog  is it alright if i pm you with some questions a bit later?


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## Caty M

Tess also uses a martingale collar for walking.. she has some cloth ones, and some cloth/chain ones. Most sighthounds have such narrow heads they can't use the buckle nylon collars. I use those for ID purposes only.


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## KittyKat

biancaDB said:


> really glad to hear that you own a whippet! This was actually the breed I've been looking into for when I'm ready for a new dog  is it alright if i pm you with some questions a bit later?


Go nuts =)

..and since you are from Ontario I can point out plenty of good breeders!


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## catahoulamom

All of my dogs wear martingales, just because I like to keep their collars fairly loose, but when I walk them I don't want them to slip out so when the leash is attached and the chain tightens it fits their necks perfectly.

To the OP, all I can say is I wish there was some kind of IQ test people had to take before buying/adopting a dog...


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## NewYorkDogue

---Apologies that this image is so small---

This is an example of the Martingale collar I use. It's from Dean & Tyler- they have an amazing website and specialize on the more large breeds of dogs. But they have beautiful collars!

I was advised to begin with a Martingale in training/walking. The idea is that the correction is "heard" more than felt (thus the delay, I believe, in the felt physical correction.) The sliding of the loop chain makes a sliding chain sound (does that make sense?) and through time the dog associates the sound with the correction rather than the pinch of, say, the prong collar. And yes, the collar then closes tighter, then releases immediately after the correction. It really works more or less like a regular leather/buckle collar, but with the added "slip" aspect.

Anyway, there is definitely no pain involved. This one I use is only 1 inch wide, but is more comfortable than the rolled collar I used before (made him cough a bit as a youngster, because it sort of cut into his throat a bit.)

When he outgrows this one, I plan on getting the next bigger size from D & T.


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## xellil

After six months of struggle and a thousand declarations that i would never put a prong or choke collar on my dog, I did finally use a prong collar on the advice of my FOURTH trainer. It was a lifesaver, frankly. Rebel wore it for a few months. 

i am a pretty dim bulb, though. When I lived out in the country all of my dogs had choke collars. I had no idea how to put them together, but I liked them because I could put little bells and dingly things on them and they would make noise when I called my dogs after dark.

So I just attached them with a piece of baling wire and put tags and bells on the links of the long end. Worked like a charm. If I needed to put a leash on a dog (which was rare) we just got a piece of rope and made a loop in one end.

And I sure never knew that you could put a choke collar on backwards. I have seen people use them properly, but I don't think i would really ever feel comfortable. It seems like the dog almost has to be already trained and really not be a puller.

When I first got Rebel he came with a choke collar (I was like OMG THAT'S how they go together!) and when we got home I put him on a leash and he about choked himself to death before we got 10 feet outside the gate. So that was that for me and choke collars.


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## xchairity_casex

i hate prong collars they just look....nasty ive never used one before nor do i ever intend on useing one for any dog to viscious looking for me! when i got cesar he had NO manners on lead AT ALL and a 6 month old bull terrier who is excited trying to run at everything while your out for a walk is super difficult but i think it only took me about a week with him wearing a normal nylon collar and going for long walks everyday plus working in the yard and he was cured and ive always always ehard bull mastiffs are gentle giants calm,lazy dogs thought ive never met them in person so i cannot say for sure but in all the books and articles ive read about them i always heard they are mellow dogs :/ so i suspect if her dogs are all that hyper and out of control that they get NO excersize and may even be living in small kennels but htats just my own opinion


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## biancaDB

catahoulamom said:


> All of my dogs wear martingales, just because I like to keep their collars fairly loose, but when I walk them I don't want them to slip out so when the leash is attached and the chain tightens it fits their necks perfectly.
> 
> To the OP, all I can say is I wish there was some kind of IQ test people had to take before buying/adopting a dog...


oh I agree! I've had someone come in once with a new lab puppy and ask me where the iams was because her son wanted the dog to be an iams dog from the commercials... she ended up leaving with chicken soup:thumb:

Also, the picture is fairly small but we sell those kinds of collars at my store! I do like those and I've seen a lot of people come in to get those for training classes


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## wags

I use the halti head collar and the gentle leader . They work just fine and the dogs are very well controlled on these type collars and seem to adjust well to them. But it does take a little adjustment period. No dog immediately just loves any type restrictiveness. But this to me seems to be the least harmful and the best for the dog to learns nice walking routine I also have the halti harness which has been a joy to use. No harshness nothing but goodness, I also have the martingale which is very nice and I do love this type. They are nice when the dogs are trained well and walking nicely! I have never seen any point in using a prong type accessory. But then that's just me. My dogs have gone to puppy classes and this is something that should just be done for socialization as well as training benefits. and heck its fun to get out with the pup and show your sweetie off! But as for the halti or gentle leaders you cant beat them! those type collars are the best! At least everyone I know who has them and has used them loves them and I recommend them to people!


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## Scarlett_O'

I HATE prong collars as well! One of the biggest reason that we arent going back to the trainer we went to class with is because she automatically got a couple with sibling guardian pups onto using prong collars, never tried anything else other then flat buckle collars....it angered be quite a bit!!

I LOVE martingales, all of my dogs(and all 3 of my family's dogs) wear them...so that is all 7!:tongue: 
And if I have a dog pull thru them(as Leo will do when being walked by Daddy-but its more of a human error) I use his halti head halter....LOVE IT!!!


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## jdatwood

All we use are martingales for all 5 girls and the occasional halti/gentle leader for Shiloh.

I would exhaust EVERY alternative before I would ever use a choke/pinch/etc collar... There ARE better ways


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## KittyKat

I squee'd when i saw how many of you guys use them! Where do you get yours from? 

I'd like Piper to have a nice leather martingale collar....


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## jdatwood

We buy mostly from Martingale Collars | Designer Dog Collars |Greyhound Collars | Sighthound Collars but have also gone through Welcome to The Hound Haberdashery by TheHoundHaberdashery on Etsy as well (quite a few DFC members use the Habdashery)


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## Scarlett_O'

KittyKat said:


> I squee'd when i saw how many of you guys use them! Where do you get yours from?
> 
> I'd like Piper to have a nice leather martingale collar....


Ive gotten ours from CollarMania and An Artful Canine. I LOVE LOVE LOVE Rhett's laminated fabric one from CM...also love each of the boy's from CM as well...but the laminated is my favorite for sure!:wink:

I REALLY want to get Rhett a leather one, but I dont do the chain ones....so I have to find the right maker...which I havent found yet!LOL

And I also plan on buying from both places that Jon mentioned!:wink:


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## NewYorkDogue

This is where I got my leather martingale: Dean Tyler Products - dog harnesses, muzzles, collars, leashes, training equipment. They also have beautifully made regular collars as well.


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## xellil

When I put Rebel on a Gentle Leader, he would start whipping his head back and forth and pulling backward, and then start spinning. As he spun, it would whip his neck sideways so hard I thought it was going to break. The third day, he sliced his face wide open with it, and that's the last time I used it. 

On a non-pull harness, it was a challenge to him to pull. His trick was to spin, and he would pull and spin until we were either tangled up together and both on the ground, or he would be on the ground all tangled up. 

In the meantime, he would start frothing at the mouth and doing this high pitched scream where all the neighbors would be out watching us.

On a flat collar, he would just choke himself to death. I tried the Cesar Milan Illusion collar - a joke on a Doberman with a long neck. Just two place to choke on. halti, you name it I tried it. 

I tried double leashes, one with a Gentle Leader and one with a harness. That made it worse. Because he was so crazy I was afraid to just let go of the leashe(es) because I thought he would be gone forever.

In addition to the face-splitting adventure with the Gentle Leader, we both normally had cuts and scrapes just from wallering around in the middle of the road. Pure hell. The frustration, embarrassment, and fear I lived in every day just because I couldn't take my dog for a walk to the end of the block is something I hope I never have to live through again.

And I had professionals try to teach him to walk, too. 

I understand how people think the prong collar looks cruel, or is a bad thing. It was a lifesaver for me. He never pulled, or spun, or whipped his head back and forth. He never got one single bruise or mark from the collar, and it didn't even rub his brittle hair off like his flat collar does. It was a miracle for us. We could take a walk. 

It was much more humane than anything else I put on him.

We haven't used a prong collar in a long time. But I would again. The only bad thing that remains from his crazy days is that every one one of our neighbors is scared to death of him. Maybe that's a good thing, I don't know.


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## maplewood

> So my questions are...is it normal for breeders to utilise prong collars on all of their dogs and suggest it to their buyers? I do know some giant breed, breeders who use and recomend prong collars. Do you think this supposed "breeder" is just a byb ? YES Aren't the parents supposed to have sound temperments? YESThe woman kept saying how her sisters dogs were all like this, including the parents... so no formal training done on any of the dogs??Probably not It all just seems strange to me and I'm thinking this "breeder" isn't a very reputable one. What are your thoughts?


Most likely the breeder is a BYB. All dogs need training and a prong collar should never be a first option.


> No its used as a training aid to help with pulling for the most part. It doesn't hurt the dog unless used incorrectly, just gives them a good poke.


The reason prong collars are so effective is because they cause pain/discomfort to the dog.


I'm not in the court of people who think prong collars are all bad. However they are not for every dog or every owner and should not IMHO be the first option and should NEVER be put on a puppy. My biggest peeve with them is when they are incorrectly used or improperly fitted. Around here I see a lot of both


----------



## biancaDB

maplewood said:


> I'm not in the court of people who think prong collars are all bad. However they are not for every dog or every owner and should not IMHO be the first option an
> d should NEVER be put on a puppy. My biggest peeve with them is when they are incorrectly used or improperly fitted. Around here I see a lot of both


I 100% agree!


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## xellil

maplewood said:


> The reason prong collars are so effective is because they cause pain/discomfort to the dog.


Before I put a prong collar on Rebel, I had my husband put one on me and take me for a "walk."

By the way, only do this at night or your neighbors will think you are into some kind of kinky stuff.

There's no pain, you feel kind of a squeeze evenly around your neck. A short pull with an immediate release doesn't hurt at all, but it does redirect. I think they are effective because they don't allow your dog to get to the point where it would be painful.

If you had a 15 foot leash and let a dog get to a full gallop and hit the end of it with a prong collar, then yes that would probably hurt. But if someone did that, they would also allow it on a flat collar which could break a dog's neck. Anyone can be cruel with any kind of leash or collar. 

choke collars are deadly, yet people go everywhere with them on their dogs with no one thinking twice about it. Because they look normal.


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## xellil

My theory is still that dogs are taught to pull or it's learned behavior. I'm no expert so may be way off base, but I think if you take a puppy and teach it not to pull it will never have a problem.


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## Scarlett_O'

xellil said:


> Before I put a prong collar on Rebel, I had my husband put one on me and take me for a "walk."
> 
> By the way, only do this at night or your neighbors will think you are into some kind of kinky stuff.
> 
> There's no pain, you feel kind of a squeeze evenly around your neck. A short pull with an immediate release doesn't hurt at all, but it does redirect. I think they are effective because they don't allow your dog to get to the point where it would be painful.
> 
> If you had a 15 foot leash and let a dog get to a full gallop and hit the end of it with a prong collar, then yes that would probably hurt. But if someone did that, they would also allow it on a flat collar which could break a dog's neck. Anyone can be cruel with any kind of leash or collar.
> *
> choke collars are deadly, yet people go everywhere with them on their dogs with no one thinking twice about it. Because they look normal.*


Not true at all...I HATE them in most people/dogs!! I REFUSED to sell them to most people when I worked at petsmart! (Thankfully at that store the store manager and the Opps manager felt the same way that I did!!!)


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## xellil

Scarlett_O' said:


> Not true at all...I HATE them in most people/dogs!! I REFUSED to sell them to most people when I worked at petsmart! (Thankfully at that store the store manager and the Opps manager felt the same way that I did!!!)


I am sure they have a use, in the right hands. I just think in most hands they are dangerous. i have seen way too many dogs choking and choking on them.

I know personally I wouldn't be able to use one correctly. I know my limitations. the thing that bothers me about places like PetSmart is they sell both prong and choke collars to just anyone, people who have no clue. But then they sell flat collars to people who have no clue either, and i see alot of dogs gagging and choking on flat collars while they pull their owners down the street. They may not immediately keel over and die, but they may certainly be doing physical damage to their throat and esophagus.


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## KittyKat

NewYorkDogue said:


> This is where I got my leather martingale: Dean Tyler Products - dog harnesses, muzzles, collars, leashes, training equipment. They also have beautifully made regular collars as well.


Such nice collars! I just wish their martingale collars were a lot wider.

Ah well. The search continues!


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## twoisplenty

We also only use the martingale collar. The same style as the one pictured with the partial chain. Boxers necks are also thicker than their heads, so with this style of collar we get the best response but I rarely have my dogs pull on them. We train ours to stay right at our side and try to maintain eye contact. 

They rarely wear a collar at home, so when the collars come out they know they are going to work


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## magicre

Scarlett_O' said:


> I HATE prong collars as well! One of the biggest reason that we arent going back to the trainer we went to class with is because she automatically got a couple with sibling guardian pups onto using prong collars, never tried anything else other then flat buckle collars....it angered be quite a bit!!
> 
> I LOVE martingales, all of my dogs(and all 3 of my family's dogs) wear them...so that is all 7!:tongue:
> And if I have a dog pull thru them(as Leo will do when being walked by Daddy-but its more of a human error) I use his halti head halter....LOVE IT!!!


does it stop them from pulling?

or at least slow them down?

can't use a halti on a pug


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## wags

magicre said:


> does it stop them from pulling?
> 
> or at least slow them down?
> 
> can't use a halti on a pug


Have you tried the Halti harness. I have this along with the head ones and it is well worth the money for my one dog. I also use the halti leash with this. Seems to work fine and its good for the dogs who can't adjust or adapt or just doesn't fit well over their muzzles the head ones. My one dog is 1/2 pug (he has the large muzzle) and I use the halti harness which works very nicely on him. I also use the halti leash with it.


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## leilaquinn

KittyKat said:


> Such nice collars! I just wish their martingale collars were a lot wider.
> 
> Ah well. The search continues!


Ella's Lead and Paco Collars will both make most of their leather collars into a martingales, i have collars from both companies (made as buckle collars, but I'm sure the quality would carry through to their martingale's)
They both make BEAUTIFUL work, and are nice people on top of it:smile:

I would never recomend a prong collar for MOST dogs, and admit feeling a bit judgemental about them in the past, though I ALWAYS think they are better/safer than a regular choke chain, though they look scarier. Then i got Luigi.:shocked: This dog is truely like having large pain insensitive livestock on a leash, he is a big marshmallow, and does want to do what I ask of him, but he is also 80 lbs of muscle and impulsive teenage puppy brain, and after a black eye and a broken foot (2 different occasions) I realized that as much as he wants to heel and does when he's paying attention, he is simply stronger than me, and now, as a result, I'm still a bit lame, and even less steady on my feet. 

When I gave in and got a prong collar, it was really a life saver, I was able to walk him again in busy areas and know that if he was focused it was clearly not bothering him in the slightest, but if he saw a puppy he wanted to say hi to on the other side of the farmers market, and had a moment of "HEY... I BET I LOOOOVE YOU, I NEED TO SAY HIIIII NOOOOOW!', he got a self inflicted correction that clearly put no damper on his joy, but seemed to remind him for a second that there is indeed someone at the other end of the leash. this dog is physically TOUGH, he is mushy on the inside and gets his feelings hurt easily, but a pinch doesn't even register as discomfort I don't think when he's amped up. I've known labs who were the same way, joyfull, adhd, and totally pain insensitive. i think there are cases where prongs are helpfull, and i've seen dogs with this particular personality litertally flip them selves in midair with their neck at a scary angle in a gentle leader. Luigi walks perfectly 90% of the time, I use a prong only for those moments when he forgets how to contain himself, i never yank it or even correct him with it, it is self correcting if he tries to bolt. 

I've also switched to the hermsprenger Neck Tech, it has small blunt teeth and is a MUCH softer pinch (yes i've tried both on myself, and DID yank hard) It was pricey and needs a good back up as the quick release seems a little too qick to release, and wouldn't have worked initially, but know all he needs is the reminder. I feel sure we will eventually be able to go back to a flat collar only, I view this as a means to an end, not just the way we walk our dog. I will also say that he gets more excited when it comes out of the drawer that for a bag of treats, he has never shown an ounce of distress over either prong collar, they are fitted properly and no one has ever used one to intentionally hurt him, so a lot of the things that can go wrong with this tool have been carefully prevented, and I no longer feel guilty, and i also feel more confident takinging him everywhere and knowing I can get his atention if I need to. this is his neck tech, git's also just more atractive, and as I said a good soft reminder of what the real one helped teach him, we do still use a real one for super high stimulation settings, like tractor supply or outdoor music with lots of other dogs.


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## leilaquinn

sorry, I hit enter too soon:tongue1:


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## nupe

I Have used Prong collar in past on Buddy to stop him from pulling...when used correctly..((placed high on the neck and right behind the ears and correction is giving in a quick snapping motion)..I think they work great. Unlike chokers they do not choke the dog but provides a pinch ..similar to the correction the mom would give a pup!!,,..would not use on a pup younger than 7 months though.


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## nupe

leilaquinn said:


> Ella's Lead and Paco Collars will both make most of their leather collars into a martingales, i have collars from both companies (made as buckle collars, but I'm sure the quality would carry through to their martingale's)
> They both make BEAUTIFUL work, and are nice people on top of it:smile:
> 
> I would never recomend a prong collar for MOST dogs, and admit feeling a bit judgemental about them in the past, though I ALWAYS think they are better/safer than a regular choke chain, though they look scarier. Then i got Luigi.:shocked: This dog is truely like having large pain insensitive livestock on a leash, he is a big marshmallow, and does want to do what I ask of him, but he is also 80 lbs of muscle and impulsive teenage puppy brain, and after a black eye and a broken foot (2 different occasions) I realized that as much as he wants to heel and does when he's paying attention, he is simply stronger than me, and now, as a result, I'm still a bit lame, and even less steady on my feet.
> 
> When I gave in and got a prong collar, it was really a life saver, I was able to walk him again in busy areas and know that if he was focused it was clearly not bothering him in the slightest, but if he saw a puppy he wanted to say hi to on the other side of the farmers market, and had a moment of "HEY... I BET I LOOOOVE YOU, I NEED TO SAY HIIIII NOOOOOW!', he got a self inflicted correction that clearly put no damper on his joy, but seemed to remind him for a second that there is indeed someone at the other end of the leash. this dog is physically TOUGH, he is mushy on the inside and gets his feelings hurt easily, but a pinch doesn't even register as discomfort I don't think when he's amped up. I've known labs who were the same way, joyfull, adhd, and totally pain insensitive. i think there are cases where prongs are helpfull, and i've seen dogs with this particular personality litertally flip them selves in midair with their neck at a scary angle in a gentle leader. Luigi walks perfectly 90% of the time, I use a prong only for those moments when he forgets how to contain himself, i never yank it or even correct him with it, it is self correcting if he tries to bolt.
> 
> I've also switched to the hermsprenger Neck Tech, it has small blunt teeth and is a MUCH softer pinch (yes i've tried both on myself, and DID yank hard) It was pricey and needs a good back up as the quick release seems a little too qick to release, and wouldn't have worked initially, but know all he needs is the reminder. I feel sure we will eventually be able to go back to a flat collar only, I view this as a means to an end, not just the way we walk our dog. I will also say that he gets more excited when it comes out of the drawer that for a bag of treats, he has never shown an ounce of distress over either prong collar, they are fitted properly and no one has ever used one to intentionally hurt him, so a lot of the things that can go wrong with this tool have been carefully prevented, and I no longer feel guilty, and i also feel more confident takinging him everywhere and knowing I can get his atention if I need to. this is his neck tech, git's also just more atractive, and as I said a good soft reminder of what the real one helped teach him, we do still use a real one for super high stimulation settings, like tractor supply or outdoor music with lots of other dogs.



hey i also have a herm springer...but not in martingdale form for Buddy...cool!!


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## leilaquinn

I thought about that one, but without the martingale part I wndered if it would offer ANY correction, do you like it?


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## nupe

ITS OK....but not good for corrrections...its just more of the look i like...lol


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## leilaquinn

Do you regularly leave it on when he's off leash like that? What would the point be of little teeth inside his collar if pulling isn't an issue and he's just hanging out in his yard?


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## nupe

No just had it on for the picture...usually no collar when in yard or in house...it does work a little whe he pullS WHEN WALKING HIM....BUT HE RARELY PULLS ANYMORE...ONLY A SQUIREEL OR A CAT RUNS BY HE DOES ...he ppinches himself.


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## leilaquinn

that makes sense! I feel like even the martingale one really only has an effect if he really pulls suddenly (like a squirrel, or pigeons and sparrows are his main thing, he thinks he's a bird dog!) I don't use it for a correction coming from me, if that makes sense?


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## DaViking

NewYorkDogue said:


> Mastiffs grow to be large dogs, very large. And I don't believe you are going to win any battle of wills against a 150 pound dog with a prong collar and no training.


+1

You can only hope it settles down but It's highly unlikely the owner in question will ever be able to control the dog, prong collar or not. A headstrong dog of this size wants and need a reason to follow her. She needs to establish relationship and rank first.


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## cprcheetah

While mastiffs that I have seen have been pretty strong willed, I've never met one who was so 'unruly' they required the use of a prong color. Yes they can be stubborn and obstinate and if not trained will drag their owners all over the place but I don't think I've EVER seen a mastiff that was hyper/out of control like they are describing.


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## biancaDB

cprcheetah said:


> While mastiffs that I have seen have been pretty strong willed, I've never met one who was so 'unruly' they required the use of a prong color. Yes they can be stubborn and obstinate and if not trained will drag their owners all over the place but I don't think I've EVER seen a mastiff that was hyper/out of control like they are describing.


Her puppy was clearly excited and lacked any sort of training, she couldn't even get him to sit. So the thought of her sisters full grown mastiffs acting the same way is a scary thought. What's scarier is her sisters insistence on everyone purchasing a prong collar to control the dogs instead of taking them to a training class!!!!


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## malluver1005

To the OP, if the pups and parents are this crazy, definitely a BYB. I use a martingle collar for ID tags and his easy-walk harness for jogs on Aspen...


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## Kat

I personally dont like prong collars, they look so evil and pointy. Seems like they could do more harm than good. I use a martingale collar, they work great.


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## Herzo

RCTRIPLEFRESH5 said:


> what is ''small'' lol!


My girl is about 65 lbs.


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## Scarlett_O'

magicre said:


> does it stop them from pulling?
> 
> or at least slow them down?
> 
> can't use a halti on a pug


Yes, how I like explaining it is, when used properly they refocus them back onto their owner...just like a horse's halter!:wink:

It uses the face, and when Im training people to them I do NOT allow them to put any pressure to them at all...if the dog starts pulling then the DOG puts pressure on it...NEVER the human.......but thats just how I train people to them!(which, IME, is always the hard part!LOL)

And for both Frenchies my Mum has used the halti harnesses with great results!:smile: (We just used a martingale tethered to his harness for Brody!:thumb


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## xchairity_casex

the thing with the head haltis though is you must be very careful they are not good for very unrurly dogs becuase they twist the neck upward so if your dog pulls to go after anotehr dog or somthing the dogs head gets jerked upward unlike a horse where the owner is underneath them and there necks are pulled downward. if you want to get an idea of what it feels like for a dog imagine you have a rope attatched to your chin and twist your head to the side and up as though someoone above you is jerking your head up its uncomfortable and you can easily imagine it being done with alot of force how it could be painful and even do some damge. if your dog is just a puller and not a lunger or a jerker then it works well the dog learns this is uncomfortable ill stop pulling. but to often i see people buying these for there hyper bouncy dogs and watch as they use them to jerk the dog like a regular lead you cant do that with this.


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## Scarlett_O'

xchairity_casex said:


> the thing with the head haltis though is you must be very careful they are not good for very unrurly dogs becuase they twist the neck upward so if your dog pulls to go after anotehr dog or somthing the dogs head gets jerked upward unlike a horse where the owner is underneath them and there necks are pulled downward. if you want to get an idea of what it feels like for a dog imagine you have a rope attatched to your chin and twist your head to the side and up as though someoone above you is jerking your head up its uncomfortable and you can easily imagine it being done with alot of force how it could be painful and even do some damge. if your dog is just a puller and not a lunger or a jerker then it works well the dog learns this is uncomfortable ill stop pulling. but to often i see people buying these for there hyper bouncy dogs and watch as they use them to jerk the dog like a regular lead you cant do that with this.


Well I NEVER take a dog out and about till they have mastered walking around all of our at home distractions with it on!:wink:
Just like with any training it should be perfected at home before taking out into the unknown!:wink:

If done properly they WILL work, but the person has to know how to use it right, and the dog needs to be shown how to react to it.
And the dogs head should NEVER be jerked upwards...the leash shouldnt be help high enough for that to happen.
(With proper training even my "bouncy" dogs have done fine in them.)


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## magicre

we leave their collars on all of the time. they don't have tags because they are never off leash...

so would a martingale be okay for bubba? and with his stout neck, do they come in less than those 2 inch widths?


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## Scarlett_O'

magicre said:


> we leave their collars on all of the time. they don't have tags because they are never off leash...
> 
> so would a martingale be okay for bubba? and with his stout neck, do they come in less than those 2 inch widths?


I leave all collars on at all times, now that Rhett isnt using them to "lead" the little ones any more!LOL I LOVE the martingales for the fact that they are comfy looking because of being "relaxed" when not engaged!:wink: 

And yep...you can get them in any size...Brody's main one(and the one that Dixi wears) are from The Artful Canine They are both 3/4" as is the one that Rhett wears!:smile:

Edit to add:

Here in this picture you can see Brody in the one that Dixi wears right now...you can see that it has slipped quite a ways down, because of not being engaged, but once I put a leash on it they are made so that if he puts pressure on it then it will tighten and not slip over his head...one of the biggest reason I like it for the dogs who's heads are the same size as their bodies!LOL


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## xchairity_casex

Scarlett_O' said:


> Well I NEVER take a dog out and about till they have mastered walking around all of our at home distractions with it on!:wink:
> Just like with any training it should be perfected at home before taking out into the unknown!:wink:
> 
> If done properly they WILL work, but the person has to know how to use it right, and the dog needs to be shown how to react to it.
> And the dogs head should NEVER be jerked upwards...the leash shouldnt be help high enough for that to happen.
> (With proper training even my "bouncy" dogs have done fine in them.)



exactly thats how they are supposed to be used! responsably  unfortunatly i see so many people who use these tools incorrectly they dont even bother learning how to use them  just buy them put em on and thats that i think all of these things like prong collars,choke chains haltis ect should come with a little booklet of instructions and warnings atleast it would discourage more idiots from useign them incorrectly i know it wouldnt stop them all but it would help.

also i was wondering how do martingales work exactly i have seen them but have never seen them in person or seen how they work?


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## Kat

magicre said:


> we leave their collars on all of the time. they don't have tags because they are never off leash...
> 
> so would a martingale be okay for bubba? and with his stout neck, do they come in less than those 2 inch widths?


If you were to get a martingale collar for bubba, they do work great for pugs, but I would take it off at home. It could potentially get caught on something and the dog could choke by accident. Its more safety to keep it off inside the house. When I let Ruby off leash when Im walking through parks or forests, the metal loop of the martingale does kind of droop down, so if the dog were running it could get caught on something, that would be my only concern. Even once when Ruby was running her paw got stuck in her collar and I had to take it out for her. So yeah, I think they are an ''outside'' collar only.

Charity Case, martingale collars work by slightly tightening around the dogs neck when you "snap'' them back for a correction. They just do an uncomfortable tighening, when sized correctly ofcourse. If its too loose then it would be like a choker. When sized correctly the chain cant go any further because the loops and material part of the collar stop it from tightening any further. Im sure you can google the actual mechanics of it, but thats the best way I can explain it lol

A martingale collar is the only thing that stopped pulling with my pug. When I used a harness she would pull so hard her armpits would be raw, and with a regular collar she would make herself cough. With a martingale it keeps her walking perfectly, and I can do quick little corrections when I need to, but she is pretty well trained so corrections for me are far and in between.


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## Scarlett_O'

xchairity_casex said:


> exactly thats how they are supposed to be used! responsably  unfortunatly i see so many people who use these tools incorrectly they dont even bother learning how to use them  just buy them put em on and thats that i think all of these things like prong collars,choke chains haltis ect should come with a little booklet of instructions and warnings atleast it would discourage more idiots from useign them incorrectly i know it wouldnt stop them all but it would help.
> 
> also i was wondering how do martingales work exactly i have seen them but have never seen them in person or seen how they work?


Halti/Gentle Leaders DO come with books....people are just too lazy to even look at them most of the time!:wink:

This is a pretty good page about how they work: How a Martingale Collar Works

I'm on my phone, or I would look for a good video(too many of the idiots with videos out there keep them WAY too tight or loose)....but that page up there does show a decent couple pictures of how they work!:wink:


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## Kat

Lol that's the link I was just about to post


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## Scarlett_O'

Kat said:


> Lol that's the link I was just about to post


Yep its a pretty good one!:wink:

Oh and just, BTW, if your dog is running and the martingale is loose enough to get her leg caught in it then its too loose!:wink:


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## xellil

Personally, I was always afraid of the head halters. Using them was very scary to me, with a dog that was totally unpredictable. A yank on a neck is alot different than a yank on a head. And if the dog goes crazy, there is really no option but to let them hurt themselves, or let go.

We had a video with one of the head halters, i can't remember which one. The dog they used as a subject was perfectly well behaved. I never saw them try to control a dog who started spinning like a top and trying to break his own neck.

I also think it's very easy to get a dog to be 100% in the yard. There is no comparison to a yard and out in public. I have used the martingale collar on several foster dogs - I don't really see a difference in them and the flat collar on the dog's ability to choke itself. Theoretically, they stop tightening so they can't choke the way a choke collar can, but if a dog is pulling it's just like having a flat collar on. They work great on a dog that won't fight them. 

We walked our last dog just on a flat collar. He was such a good dog. We let him pull in front of us but he never pulled very hard, and he never choked himself. I always felt so superior when I saw people who were having trouble with their dogs. I, of course, had the perfect dog because I was such a good owner.

Karma is a bitch, as I found out when I got Rebel.


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## CorgiPaws

xellil said:


> I also think it's very easy to get a dog to be 100% in the yard. There is no comparison to a yard and out in public.


I agree. 
Which is why it is so important to first get a dog to be 100% in the house, and in his yard before ever going for a walk in public. 
Otherwise, it's like trying to run a marathon without ever so much as taking a jog around the block. 



xellil said:


> I I have used the martingale collar on several foster dogs - I don't really see a difference in them and the flat collar on the dog's ability to choke itself. Theoretically, they stop tightening so they can't choke the way a choke collar can, but if a dog is pulling it's just like having a flat collar on. They work great on a dog that won't fight them.


I personally wouldn't ever use a prong or choke collar because there are other means of training dogs to not pull. Allowing them to pull, even if it's "not pulling that much" justifies the behavior in any degree. In my experience, MOST people that I know in person that use these collars weren't very patient with real training methods. Not saying that's the case for people here. 



We use a martingale on all of our dogs. I've never looked at them as a collar to stop pulling, as I'd never expect a collar to train my dog anything. That's what I'm there for. What I like about them is they don't have to be fitted super tight (like a flat collar) to prevent them from slipping out, because they tighten just enough to be snug, but not enough to choke (like a choke chain) and don't inflict pain. (like a prong collar) 
But, if you're expecting some kind of tool to train your dog, not sure what to tell you.


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## Kat

Scarlett_O' said:


> Oh and just, BTW, if your dog is running and the martingale is loose enough to get her leg caught in it then its too loose!:wink:


Yeah, that was when I first started using them and someone readjusted it without me noticing. Dont worry, its properly fitted now


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## xellil

PuppyPaws said:


> I agree.
> 
> I personally wouldn't ever use a prong or choke collar because there are other means of training dogs to not pull. Allowing them to pull, even if it's "not pulling that much" justifies the behavior in any degree. In my experience, MOST people that I know in person that use these collars weren't very patient with real training methods. Not saying that's the case for people here.


Well, I had three different trainers who believed my dog could learn to walk on something that wasn't a prong collar. He was 100% in the yard very quickly. 

We did group lessons, private lessons, I hired the third trainer to just train him because I thought it was me and that's what the other two trainers told me when they failed - I was the failure. The third one failed also. After six months, there was no noticeable progress outside the yard. We could take a walk as long as there no people, squirrels, rabbits, children on bicycles, etc. that ever came remotely into our view.

i think the first two trainers weren't very good but the third one seemed pretty good. Other peoples dogs she worked with do really well. They all told me that a prong collar was a horrible thing, and only really bad dog owners used one. Plus, it looks like a torture instrument and that's why I didn't want to try it. I was determined to do it with the "humane" restraints that were recommended by the trainers.

But after a long time, i found myself wondering how I could take him back to the rescue without looking like a huge failure. Every day was a struggle. In addition, i know his periods of berserko weren't good for him. He was hurting himself ALL the time, and often hurting me also. When he was in that zone, he was crazy - screaming, frothing at the mouth, it was horrible to watch. And worse when we were in the middle of the road.

The fourth trainer was the one who convinced me that using a prong collar wouldn't be torturing my dog. 

I think it's because he lived isolated in a yard for several years, and is just highly reactive to external stimulation. But who knows.

He is still reactive either on a leash or behind a fence although not nearly so bad. If he's loose in the yard he will stand 10 feet from another dog and watch it walk by. 

I agree - i don't think any pulling is acceptable. My last dog pulled some and I thought that was ok - in reality, it would have been more pleasant had we not let him do that. 

Rebel still wears a leash when we go to places we have to, like the vet, although I use his flat collar now. If I am holding the leash, we normally have some kind of an episode in the waiting room. If I let the leash drop, he sits by me ok - although he will usually whine alot if there are other dogs in there and he is "restrained" by me not letting him get close to them - I haven't heard his screaming noise in a long time. 

It just makes me feel bad that people might think I am not a good owner because I used a prong collar on Rebel. I love him to death, and would never hurt him. 

I also think that if i hadn't heard all the stuff and bought into it so completely - it's cruel, it's mean, no good dog owner would ever use that kind of collar - I might have decided to use it sooner, and we could have saved ourselves months and months of what we went through.

I think there is a potential for abuse with any tool including a flat collar, head collar, martingale etc. I think anyone that buys ANY collar at PetSmart should get a flyer explaining about the dangers of letting your dog choke itself.


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## xchairity_casex

@kat-thanks for the info on how htey work!

@scarlett O sheesh the come with booklets and people are still too dumb to pay any attention disgusting! thanks for the link too!

im deffently super curious about looking into martingales more ive never really heard about them untill just recently when i was checking out collar mania i seen them for the first time.

@xellil all dogs are differant some dogs just are too dog gone stubborn to listen to much of anything and we do what we have to do to keep them safe if a prong collar is whats going to keep him safe then by all means keeep him safe who cares what other people think your not a bad owner you know that and your dog deff knows that that is whats important.
when cesar went thru his stage where he became fearful or cars and began lunging at them when they were passing by i used a choke chain i didnt jerk him but when he would pull on it the discomfort was enough to make him think twice along with a verbal correction from me he was at the same time suffering from allergies on his throat it was hairless and red and a few scabs from him digging people would see that while i was walking him and would make comments about my "jerking him to rough" when i hadnet jerked him at all even without the choke chain he still had the allergys on his throat if they had been able to take a look on his tummy they would have seen allergic reaction there as well.


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## KittyKat

PuppyPaws said:


> We use a martingale on all of our dogs. I've never looked at them as a collar to stop pulling, as I'd never expect a collar to train my dog anything. That's what I'm there for. What I like about them is they don't have to be fitted super tight (like a flat collar) to prevent them from slipping out, because they tighten just enough to be snug, but not enough to choke (like a choke chain) and don't inflict pain. (like a prong collar)
> But, if you're expecting some kind of tool to train your dog, not sure what to tell you.


Agreed... a martingale is *not* a training collar. It has a specific design purpose, which is to prevent it slipping over the head of dogs with small, narrow heads and wide necks and to prevent neck damage. Any dog with a neck wider then their head would benefit from this collar. It's not good as a training collar because it is not responsive... your leash is connected to a loop which is then connected to the collar portion.

You can train while using a martingale collar but it's not a training aid, and it doesn't have any corrective force behind it like say a prong collar would. You can still 'pop' with a martingale, but I would say it's likely only going to impact a responsive dog. Martingales are soft and luxurious on the dogs neck, and they are noted for their visual appeal (nice wide collars) etc. not for their ability to "train".


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## xellil

KittyKat said:


> Agreed... a martingale is *not* a training collar. It has a specific design purpose, which is to prevent it slipping over the head of dogs with small, narrow heads and wide necks and to prevent neck damage. Any dog with a neck wider then their head would benefit from this collar. It's not good as a training collar because it is not responsive... your leash is connected to a loop which is then connected to the collar portion.
> 
> You can train while using a martingale collar but it's not a training aid, and it doesn't have any corrective force behind it like say a prong collar would. You can still 'pop' with a martingale, but I would say it's likely only going to impact a responsive dog. Martingales are soft and luxurious on the dogs neck, and they are noted for their visual appeal (nice wide collars) etc. not for their ability to "train".


The advantage I see to a Martingale collar is for dogs with long necks you can get them up to 2-3" I think, which spreads out the pressure if they pull. As opposed to something like a 1" flat collar or a chain, which concentrates it in one small area. 

I guess I do have a Martingale collar for Rebel - I got it at PetSmart and i think it's about 2". He wore it for photographs even though it's not nearly so fancy or nice as some i see here. But it's bright red so it's going to be his Christmas collar.

I do believe I'm a good dog owner but I am not immune to what others think of me. It's one reason I try not to be judgmental unless I try what others try and determine first hand that it's either cruel, unnecessary or for selfish reasons and not what is best for my dog.

I have seen cruel training. The very first trainer we took Rebel to for an evaluation lasted just a few minutes, as she put a choke chain on him and jerked him around. The owner of the place was standing there watching and told me my new dog would eventually "turn" on me and we needed to basically pound him into submission while we had the chance. 

Honest to goodness, I hope my next dog is an easy one. I was over 50 years old before i ran into Rebel, and I hope it's another 50 before I run into another dog like him. But I also think we are closer than I have been with other dogs, simply because of what we went through.


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## KittyKat

xellil said:


> The advantage I see to a Martingale collar is for dogs with long necks you can get them up to 2-3" I think, which spreads out the pressure if they pull. As opposed to something like a 1" flat collar or a chain, which concentrates it in one small area.
> 
> I guess I do have a Martingale collar for Rebel - I got it at PetSmart and i think it's about 2". He wore it for photographs even though it's not nearly so fancy or nice as some i see here. But it's bright red so it's going to be his Christmas collar.


Yes, like i said in an earlier post they were designed for sighthounds as they can damage their windpipes if they are put on different collar types. The martingales wide collar options help distribute the pressure.

A lot of dobermans use martingale collars, as they have similar builds to sighthounds in the head/neck department. Plus wide collars look striking on them.


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## magicre

KittyKat said:


> Agreed... a martingale is *not* a training collar. It has a specific design purpose, which is to prevent it slipping over the head of dogs with small, narrow heads and wide necks and to prevent neck damage. Any dog with a neck wider then their head would benefit from this collar. It's not good as a training collar because it is not responsive... your leash is connected to a loop which is then connected to the collar portion.
> 
> You can train while using a martingale collar but it's not a training aid, and it doesn't have any corrective force behind it like say a prong collar would. You can still 'pop' with a martingale, but I would say it's likely only going to impact a responsive dog. Martingales are soft and luxurious on the dogs neck, and they are noted for their visual appeal (nice wide collars) etc. not for their ability to "train".


when you say soft and luxurious on the dogs' necks...what do you mean by that? are you talking about the feel of the collar itself? or when they are walking and i'm listening to my ipod and accidentally pull on the collar


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## magicre

xellil said:


> The advantage I see to a Martingale collar is for dogs with long necks you can get them up to 2-3" I think, which spreads out the pressure if they pull. As opposed to something like a 1" flat collar or a chain, which concentrates it in one small area.
> 
> I guess I do have a Martingale collar for Rebel - I got it at PetSmart and i think it's about 2". He wore it for photographs even though it's not nearly so fancy or nice as some i see here. But it's bright red so it's going to be his Christmas collar.
> 
> I do believe I'm a good dog owner but I am not immune to what others think of me. It's one reason I try not to be judgmental unless I try what others try and determine first hand that it's either cruel, unnecessary or for selfish reasons and not what is best for my dog.
> 
> I have seen cruel training. The very first trainer we took Rebel to for an evaluation lasted just a few minutes, as she put a choke chain on him and jerked him around. The owner of the place was standing there watching and told me my new dog would eventually "turn" on me and we needed to basically pound him into submission while we had the chance.
> 
> Honest to goodness, I hope my next dog is an easy one. I was over 50 years old before i ran into Rebel, and I hope it's another 50 before I run into another dog like him. But I also think we are closer than I have been with other dogs, simply because of what we went through.


i guess a martingale wouldn't work for a pug, because they have no necks to speak of....

so he'd be getting a 5/8 inch collar...and that wouldn't spread out anything. malia could wear one....though. but as pretty as they are, i'm not really a collar person. both my dogs have black collars....black leashes...if they were boys, they'd be men in black.


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## xchairity_casex

xellil said:


> The advantage I see to a Martingale collar is for dogs with long necks you can get them up to 2-3" I think, which spreads out the pressure if they pull. As opposed to something like a 1" flat collar or a chain, which concentrates it in one small area.
> 
> I guess I do have a Martingale collar for Rebel - I got it at PetSmart and i think it's about 2". He wore it for photographs even though it's not nearly so fancy or nice as some i see here. But it's bright red so it's going to be his Christmas collar.
> 
> I do believe I'm a good dog owner but I am not immune to what others think of me. It's one reason I try not to be judgmental unless I try what others try and determine first hand that it's either cruel, unnecessary or for selfish reasons and not what is best for my dog.
> 
> I have seen cruel training. The very first trainer we took Rebel to for an evaluation lasted just a few minutes, as she put a choke chain on him and jerked him around. The owner of the place was standing there watching and told me my new dog would eventually "turn" on me and we needed to basically pound him into submission while we had the chance.
> 
> Honest to goodness, I hope my next dog is an easy one. I was over 50 years old before i ran into Rebel, and I hope it's another 50 before I run into another dog like him. But I also think we are closer than I have been with other dogs, simply because of what we went through.


i know what you mean iget crap all the time becuase i use corrections in training wheni tell people that i tried useing just PRtraining and it didnt work people dontbelive me they think i just want to "over power"my dog and to feel in control of him which is so not the case i tried not useing corrections but he had no respect for me and i dont think he really cared for me becuase of it he was almost aloof unless he wanted somthing now its like a 180 he adores me if im out of his sight he looks for me when i hug him he loves it when we are walking off lead and runs up ahead of me he will stop turn around and wait for me toget up close to him wiggle waggle his bum then keep walking.
it is hard when people talk about you tell you things like how bad of adog owner you are its very discouraging


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## KittyKat

magicre said:


> when you say soft and luxurious on the dogs' necks...what do you mean by that? are you talking about the feel of the collar itself? or when they are walking and i'm listening to my ipod and accidentally pull on the collar


They tend to have nice linings on them (i've seen satin, wool, sheeps skin, soft leather). :3


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## 3Musketeers

I think using a prong collar right off the bat is pretty lazy and irresponsible. Have to agree with everyone her sister may be a BYB.
I'm a little sick of prong collars (and e-collars), but mainly because a lot of people decide it's the first thing they need to try, they see it as fixing the dog, rather than teaching them.
At a previous job I had, I can't tell you how many times I saw someone come into a store with a dog on a prong collar, literally jerking at the leash harshly over and over, with a very stressed dog, and you know what? The dog would keep attempting to pull anyways.

I like martingales a lot, but I also think they can be misused the way people misuse prong collars, haven't seen it yet though. My brats have martingales, mainly because with buckle collars they would have them on pretty tight for them not to slip out of them (happened to me once), and they aren't even sight-hounds, LOL. Now they can wear them looser and not almost slip out if they decide to back up for whatever reason.


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## Scarlett_O'

magicre said:


> i guess a martingale wouldn't work for a pug, because they have no necks to speak of....
> 
> so he'd be getting a 5/8 inch collar...and that wouldn't spread out anything. malia could wear one....though. but as pretty as they are, i'm not really a collar person. both my dogs have black collars....black leashes...if they were boys, they'd be men in black.


Dont let what other people say stear you away from Martingales....they work AMAZINGLY on all of our dogs, Border Collies, Pug/x, French Bulldogs, Lhasa Apsos, and the Mini Doxie!:wink:

When Brody was little we got him a solid black nylon one at PetSmart....Im not sure if they still carry them in store...but Im pretty sure you can get them online still!:wink:


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## xellil

For a pug, I would try not use a collar at all - look at Snorkels' harness in my avatar. Very cool, and will never jerk her neck.

The D-ring on her harness is way low on her back so there's really no control, but you can get them up higher between their shoulder blades. 

i haven't used a martingale on her, but she does have a pretty long neck. However, she got a really bad neck injury right after I got her and I don't want to put anything on her that could jerk her around. She tends to dart off in an opposite direction and if we're not fast enough she will hit the end of the leash. 


But she's also pretty slow, so it's easy to walk her with no leash. i mostly use the harness to buckle her in her car seat.

i don't know, if i were doing obedience stuff with a small dog I might try something around their neck for a little more control.


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## Scarlett_O'

xellil said:


> For a pug, I would try not use a collar at all - look at Snorkels' harness in my avatar. Very cool, and will never jerk her neck.
> 
> The D-ring on her harness is way low on her back so there's really no control, but you can get them up higher between their shoulder blades.
> 
> i haven't used a martingale on her, but she does have a pretty long neck. However, she got a really bad neck injury right after I got her and I don't want to put anything on her that could jerk her around. She tends to dart off in an opposite direction and if we're not fast enough she will hit the end of the leash.
> 
> 
> But she's also pretty slow, so it's easy to walk her with no leash. i mostly use the harness to buckle her in her car seat.
> 
> i don't know, if i were doing obedience stuff with a small dog I might try something around their neck for a little more control.


I like me collars!LOL

With Brody it didnt matter what kind of harness he had...he pulled right into it...he would even spin him self around in the "no-pull" clip on the front of the chest ones!LOL But throw a martingale AND his harness on him(which is how I said we walk him) and he is the perfect gentleman!!:wink: (Well not really.....but as perfect as he can get!!LOL)


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## xellil

xchairity_casex said:


> i know what you mean iget crap all the time becuase i use corrections in training wheni tell people that i tried useing just PRtraining and it didnt work people dontbelive me they think i just want to "over power"my dog and to feel in control of him which is so not the case i tried not useing corrections but he had no respect for me and i dont think he really cared for me becuase of it he was almost aloof unless he wanted somthing now its like a 180 he adores me if im out of his sight he looks for me when i hug him he loves it when we are walking off lead and runs up ahead of me he will stop turn around and wait for me toget up close to him wiggle waggle his bum then keep walking.
> it is hard when people talk about you tell you things like how bad of adog owner you are its very discouraging


with Rebel, it wasn't so much that he was ignoring me on purpose but that something clicked in his brain where he just couldn't focus on anything except whatever it was that he saw. i dunno, I almost felt like it was a relief to him when he could change his focus. 

Whatever it was he was doing, it seemed very emotionally unhealthy. Like he was just losing all ability to think and this screaming, frothing going on was a dog that had no control of himself.


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## xellil

Scarlett_O' said:


> I like me collars!LOL
> 
> With Brody it didnt matter what kind of harness he had...he pulled right into it...he would even spin him self around in the "no-pull" clip on the front of the chest ones!LOL But throw a martingale AND his harness on him(which is how I said we walk him) and he is the perfect gentleman!!:wink: (Well not really.....but as perfect as he can get!!LOL)


Yes, I'm sure it's alot different walking an old, slow dachshund compared to a young active dog! And with her spinal arthritis it's a different thing because we have to be so careful of her neck/spine. I do believe I was responsible for her neck injury - when I first got her she was just so cute and my first female in forever so I bought her this cute little pink collar with rhinestones and I guess jerked her neck, even though I didn't notice at the time.

I've never actually had a small young active dog. I'm sure they can be just as stubborn as the big ones.


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## magicre

we've tried harnesses on bubba. it is a nightmare and we've tried every one imaginable.

i don't like using a collar because of the trachea issues that can arise from collars...but i also can't have him pull me over and the little brat can do that...he has the strength of a hundred dogs when he starts his pull or his lean.....

we've had trainers, harnesses.....i feel satisfied that we've done it all.

with a collar, i don't jerk him....or pull him.....i just stand like a tree until he decides to stop....

i'm more concerned with me than i am with him.......we can be walking along and suddenly, he's going somewhere else with a fervor reserved for pugs.....

you'd have to meet this dog...i've never seen anything like it. and two years later, with trainers and harnesses, i confess that i give up.

i have better control with a collar. and then i don't fall down.


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## whiteleo

Scarlett_O' said:


> Well I NEVER take a dog out and about till they have mastered walking around all of our at home distractions with it on!:wink:
> Just like with any training it should be perfected at home before taking out into the unknown!:wink:
> 
> If done properly they WILL work, but the person has to know how to use it right, and the dog needs to be shown how to react to it.
> And the dogs head should NEVER be jerked upwards...the leash shouldnt be help high enough for that to happen.
> (With proper training even my "bouncy" dogs have done fine in them.)


Halti's won't work on a B.T.! They don't have the nose for it.... B.T's at least mine were all taught to NOT pull in the "easy walk" it took time as they are all big pullers, but now they can easily go out for a walk with their martingale collars. When I go on club walks around green lake it is pretty impressive to see my girl as the only non puller in the group. The president asked me last walk how I got her to not pull, I told her I trained her in the "easy walk" which was suggested by the trainer of the first puppy class I took Cayenne to. They work marvelous!


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## dogsarebetter

I admit, I use a prong collar.
Skyler would pull sooo bad. I got a proper fitted prong collar and after 5 minutes of use, he has never pulled again.
however if i am walking him on a regular collar he KNOWS it. and he will pull me worse than before.

i am planning on actually solving the pulling issue correctly by teaching him to walk on a loose lead.
i've had him 6 months and i have not yet to teach him that! would you believe it! he knows so many other pointless tricks and doesnt even walk on a loose lead.
shame on me.

ive used head halters but i dont like them. yeah the dogs walked great with them on, but i WANT my dogs to sniff around in the grass over there *points*
and look over there at the neighbors kids playing.

i guess our walks are much more "play" than any structure.


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## biancaDB

In most cases, prong collars are a temporary solution! Definitely work on perfecting the walk, it's well worth it in the end


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## doggiedad

my dog had a flat collar untill he 6 months or 9 months old.



Jimm said:


> They are not reputable because they use prong collars and have dogs with energy and character?
> 
> >>>>>>Prong collars are excellent. Beats any other collar for training any day of the week.<<<<<


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## Liz

Training equipment I use depends really on the dog and the handler. I beloved but high energy dog with a frail or older owner will probably need a prong or head halter just because he is probably not going to get enough exercise and the handler will not have the speed to control a young bouncy pup. I like to use anything that will keep dog and owner together and able to learn with each other. Some of my dogs have never had anything but a nylon slip to show in or flat collar for obedience work though I love martingales because my breed have tons of hair and neck and very fine heads. I have also had some very head strong dogs who moved onto prongs. That said I use a prong until we have a working arrangement then flip it so there is no "bite" just the squeeze then move down to a martingale and so on. We avoid chain training colalrs mostly because they damage coat on my long haired breeds and leave a grey stain around the neck. What can I say - vanity = collies/shelties:happy:


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## Tahlz

I personally don't like chokers or prongs and I'd probably never use them. I am not against people using them but I think if some one is just using them before trying other methods, that's when I don't agree with them. I personally walk my dogs on harnesses. They hardly ever wear collars when walking unless they somehow got there harnesses and chewed them or I just wont walk them til I get a new harness.


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## Dude and Bucks Mamma

I'll say it... Buck has a prong collar. I had one for my brittany and for Dude too. When my mom married my stepdad, he had this brittany named Hoss. My stepdad is the world's worst dog trainer as far as lack of effort goes. I was 7. By the time I was 8 I had that dog sitting, laying down, staying, shaking, sitting up, rolling over, and flipping treats off his nose. But, me being 4'11 at 21, imagine how big I was at 8 years old... I was the only one who would walk this dog and, at 8 years old, I knew more about dog training than my entire family combined (mom, dad, stepmom, stepdad, aunts, uncles, sibling, grandparents... they REALLY aren't dog people! Hahaha. They love them but don't know how to treat them). We were at PetsMart one day and I saw a prong collar and asked my mom if she would buy it for me. She did and I went home to work with my dog. Without ever once getting a yelp out of him, I leash trained him. I loved that dog with everything I had and did everything to make sure I wouldn't hurt him with it. My stepdad even gave him to me. Hoss took a couple of years with a prong collar, probably because I was so young, but after using it on my grandparent's dobermans and a few other family member's dogs (my family tends to let their dogs walk all over them) I was able to get Dude through his rebellious stage with a prong collar in just a few weeks. He has never needed one since and he will be 8 years old this month.

There is no way in hell that I would ever put a prong collar in the hands of another 8 year old (and my mom probably shouldn't have) even though I did it but I was lucky enough to quickly learn that it is not something used to hurt the dog but as to correct him when he drags your little 8 year old self down the sidewalk. Hoss was the type of dog who would pull and strain on a normal collar so that his eyes were puffy and he was wheezing. I couldn't walk him without a prong collar at first. Dude was leash trained but hit a rebellious stage at about 6 months (the same one Buck is in right now) and he had a prong collar for about 3 weeks.

Buck is just... Buck. He is stubborn and doesn't care if he strangles himself. I walked him with a prong collar for about a week but have since added his mendota slip lead back into the mix. That is what I use now to walk him but also have the prong collar and leash on him. The prong collar is only used when he ignores the slip lead. He has a chance to correct himself without feeling the prong collar before he gets the prong collar. I have been using it for about... 3 weeks now and he is SOOO much better. I hardly ever have to use the prong collar. 

I don't think everyone should be allowed to use a prong collar. They can cause some serious damage. They should also be temporary. Once Buck is "weaned" off of it, it will probably be hung up in our "dungeon" (it's a dark, tiny room in our apt that Nick and I are both terrified of, hence the name) until we have need of it with our next pup. Even then, it will still be a last resort. 

I like to have the prong collar sideways on his neck so that the pressure is on the more muscular part of his neck rather than the throat. I feel like it is too vulnerable of an area for a prong collar. I doubt I am tugging on it hard enough to do even the tiniest amount of damage but I still don't like it. Anyhow, properly used, a prong collar can be a wonderful training tool but when in the wrong hands it can be, IMO, a torture device.

I have to add that I do occasionally turn Buck's slip lead into a halter. He is great on that. Doesn't pull, nothing. But the minute he has it around his neck instead of his face, he forgets all of his manners. Anyhow, I only like prong collars for the rebellious stage some dogs go through. I like not having to use anything but a slip lead for Dude and not having him pull at all and Buck is quickly heading that direction too with just a small shove from our prong collar. Haha. I feel that if you can't phase out the prong collar fairly quickly... you're doing it wrong.


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## Dude and Bucks Mamma

Jimm said:


> Who cares what she is going to do.It is her dog.If she wants to keep it or put it down it is her choice.
> I don't think a prong collar should be the last resort. Once you have an idea what you are doing then it is up to you to make the decision. Some dogs are not going to get any better with any other method and to me it seems pointless wasting months of training when you know you will have to use a prong to get results with a particular dog.


Well with that mindset you are totally going to need a prong collar. Instead of thinking: "We can do this. We just need to focus and make this a reality" you are thinking: "This is such a waste of time. I'm just going to need a prong collar after I get done with this anyway".

And why do we care? Because a dog shouldn't have to suffer as a result of its owner's stupidity. Think about it. If we all had your mindset, no one would be out there putting a stop to animal cruelty. No one would be out there stopping dog fighting. "Who cares? It's Michael Vick's dog. If he wants to electrocute/hang/shoot/drown/fight his dogs to the death then it is his choice."


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## 1605

Dude and Bucks Mamma said:


> Well with that mindset you are totally going to need a prong collar. Instead of thinking: "We can do this. We just need to focus and make this a reality" you are thinking: "This is such a waste of time. I'm just going to need a prong collar after I get done with this anyway".
> 
> And why do we care? Because a dog shouldn't have to suffer as a result of its owner's stupidity. Think about it. If we all had your mindset, no one would be out there putting a stop to animal cruelty. No one would be out there stopping dog fighting. "Who cares? It's Michael Vick's dog. If he wants to electrocute/hang/shoot/drown/fight his dogs to the death then it is his choice."


Equating a prong collar with DOG FIGHTING?! Forgive me, but this is way over the top.

Zio is a CDX level Obedience dog (we're working on the next leve, Utility Dog/UD). He is also a field-bred GSP who is very near to completing his Amateur Field Championship & Master Hunter designation. The two disciplines are are not incompatible. But they do say something about Zio's focus and prey drive. 

Indoors in the obedience ring Zio will do everything off lead, up to/including hand signals, directed jumps, and the like. However, put him in an obedience ring OUTSIDE and his hunting/prey instinct makes mockery of anything but the most rudimentary obedience commands. Yes, he's been trained outside with multiple distractions, noises, venues, etc. Yes, he will sit, stay, recall. But should a bird fly by or another dog walk past an outdoor obedience ring while you are putting him through his paces, and you can kiss any hope of qualifying good-bye.

And yet this is a dog who will work 1/4 mile away in a field on whistle commands; be steady to wing/shot; and find a pheasant in waist-high weeds when you've already walked past it three times.

When going for walks or potty breaks, Zio's main focus is to hunt. If you don't have a prong collar on him you will have little hope of keeping him from dragging you down the street because even at 58 lbs, he is 100% muscle & power. We run him (and Cheeney) almost every day for at least 30 minutes in nearby equestrian parks where they can expend some of that energy in a positive way. And of course hunt. 

During these runs Zio is on an e-collar (yes, you read that correctly) while Cheeney may either be on 25' check cord or an e-collar. Training on field dogs is routinely and humanely done using an e-collar. Why? Because ultimately when that dog is hunted, you do not want him chasing a bird he just flushed because someone is going to shoot that bird! He must perform his duties WITHOUT someone standing over him telling him NOT to give in to his instincts because he may be on point or backing another dog on point for several minutes before a handler gets to him.

ANY training aid can be used incorrectly or abused. But to say they are simply bad because you personally don't approve of them is biased and reactionary.

Pax,


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## Dude and Bucks Mamma

They are nowhere near the same thing. I agree. But to simply turn a blind eye to a woman who clearly knows nothing about her breed and could potentially harm him with the training aid she wants to use on him is where it starts. Everything big started out as something small. The more a person turns their back to something unpleasant the more desensitized they become. In my mind, the two are just as bad. 

Abusive relationships don't usually start off abusive. They typically start out just like any other. Slowly, one partner becomes mean and the other partner learns to accept it as part of life. Pretty soon, the lesser partner is tolerating having the crap beat out of them. One partner yelling at the other in the beginning isn't nearly as bad as the end result of hitting the lesser partner, but where do you think it started from? 

With me, being stupid and not bothering to attempt to train a pup and assuming a prong collar is going to be a cure all right off the bat and dog fighting are both something that will not be tolerated. I won't tolerate a stupid person any more than I will tolerate a dog fighter.


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