# SO. I came across this website and....



## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

i am offended at this:

Raw Dog Foods

please leave comments if you take exception to how it's presented.

it starts out:



> As repulsive as it may seem, it is completely natural for a wolf to consume the entire animal… meat, bones, organs and all.





> The Downside of a Raw Dog Food Diet
> 
> A raw dog food diet can’t touch the convenience of a kibble. Just measure and pour. It just doesn’t get any easier.
> 
> ...


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## ubershann (Jul 29, 2010)

What part is offending you? All of that is true and they aren't saying you shouldn't feed your dog raw, just that you need to be aware of the extra precautions you need to take for your own health. And saying kibble is easier, well there's really no arguing with that. They didn't say kibble is healthier, just easier.


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## DarDog (Sep 6, 2010)

I agree with ubershann; the points presented are all true. There are going to be down sides to just about anything, anyway.


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## moon (Jul 15, 2010)

It is true = Except that wolves don't eat the stomach and intestines (neither do coyotes) unless it's a tiny mouse. From what I've observed myself, even something as small as squirrel and 'possum - the heads, stomachs, and intestines are left for the buzzards.


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## JayJayisme (Aug 2, 2009)

Well, the article isn't horrible. Could be worse. It just leaves out some key details. I posted some suggestions in the comment area to help the author improve the article a bit. Hopefully my comments won't be met with too much opposition. :wink:


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## JayJayisme (Aug 2, 2009)

Well my comment over there has started an interesting conversation that I'd like to post here just in case it gets edited or deleted there. Original comment at top followed by responses.

JayJay September 16, 2010 at 3:45 pm

A few comments on this entry. First, thanks for helping to bring attention to raw as an option for dog owners. It is the single most important thing you can do for the health and vitality of your dog. But allow me to point out some corrections/omissions.

1. First a correction. Most dogs in the wild will NOT eat the digestive tract or stomach contents of their prey except for the smallest prey meals (such as rabbits or mice). Dogs will eviscerate the gut of larger prey and remove the digestive tract, or tear it open and shake out the contents before eating it.

2. Under “The Downside of a Raw Dog Food Diet” you mention the potential for bacterial contamination when handling raw food. This is true, and as stated, good handling practices, just like when you cook meat for your family, can minimize this issue. But what isn’t stated is that kibble is also a known source of potentially dangerous bacteria. Did you know that most recalls on commercial kibble over the past decade have been related to salmonella or E.coli contamination? As stated, dogs rarely get sick from these organisms but if you think handling kibble is safer than handling meat, you are taking a very large risk. You should use the same safe handling practices when handling kibble as you do when handling raw meat.

3. You mention a bunch of commercial raw products but nowhere in the article do you mention the “other” raw diet that has gained a lot of popularity in recent years. This is the “prey model raw” or “raw meaty bone” diet which consists of raw meat, a small percentage of raw bones, and a small percentage of raw organ meat. The food is generally obtained through human-grade meat sources (such as your local supermarket) and it is a true carnivore diet eliminating all unnecessary plants and grains. The inclusion of whole raw bones provides dental benefits not available from either foods that include bone meal or so-called “dental chews”. Raw bones are nature’s toothbrushes for dogs and the dental benefits of this diet are far and above what is available from a commercial ground raw diet. Plus it’s tons cheaper!
Mike Sagman September 16, 2010 at 5:59 pm

--

Hi JayJay… Thanks for your interesting reply. You are correct in saying that bacterial contamination of commercial kibble is the single most common reason for recalls. I didn’t mean to single out raw foods as the only source for these potential problems.

In addition, I’m sorry I didn’t mention the “prey model raw” diet. However, so far, the primary goal of our website is to review and rate commercial products. We do this by reading and interpreting pet food labels. And to my understanding, the diets you mention are more homemade (and would not be associated with standard government labeling. If you are aware of any commercially available “raw meaty bones” or “prey model diets”, please let me know and I’ll be sure to add them to my To Do list.

And finally, I’d like to ask you to clarify your description of how wild dogs consume their prey. After reading your note, it still isn’t clear enough to me whether or not dogs actually eat the digestive tract and/or contents or not. Once I understand and confirm this issue I promise to immediately correct any misinformation in my article.

JayJay. Thanks again for your comments and corrections. We, too would like to see more general interest in the topic of raw feeding.

--

JayJay September 16, 2010 at 6:54 pm

Mike,

Thanks for the thoughtful reply. With regards to the issue of wild dogs consuming the digestive tract of prey animals, this is a good source of information backed by reliable references.

Myths About Raw: Do wolves eat stomach contents of prey?

As far as a “commercial” prey model raw diet, well, sorry, I think of dog food as meat and of meat as dog food. I didn’t realize dogfoodadvisor.com was really commercialdogfoodadvisor.com. But if you want to get technical, meat is a commercial product, just not through pet food channels. Therefore it has no visibility in the commercial pet food arena. But it’s very much dog food. What else should a carnivore eat?

I buy the meat for my dogs from the same places I buy it for my family. That is one of the challenges of promoting the PMR diet, there is no commercial “voice”. It’s small potatoes for the meat packing industry so they don’t promote it. And the pet food manufacturers sure don’t want you to know about it. But therein lies the beauty of this diet. There is nobody who stands to gain anything financially by promoting it. PMR followers do it strictly for the health and well being on their pets, not for commercial gain. That in itself should put it dead center in the crosshairs with dog owners. There is no commercial entity trying to convince you that dogs should eat corn or beet pulp or dandelions. As far as ingredient labels, well, take a package of pork ribs. The ingredients are pork meat and pork bones. It’s human grade food with human grade food labeling. What more could a dog want? Cheers!

:biggrin:


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

i guess i was in not such a great mood when i read it...it's just the way he presented it....

and the products he's rating as five star....

i suppose i should be grateful that raw feeders got any attention at all....

the words he used right off the bat....like the word 'repulsive'....

in context, how is it repulsive that wolves eat prey. hello. they are carnivores....would we feel more civilised if they pushed a cart at the supermarket?


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## ubershann (Jul 29, 2010)

I don't think there's anything wrong with someone finding something repulsive, as long as they aren't trying to make everyone else agree with him. I find handling meat gross, which is why I wear gloves when I cut it. Doesn't mean I don't feed it to my dog or myself, and I don't tell other people they have to wear gloves. 

And to many, myself included, the reality of an animal slaughtering another animal and eating it raw is a bit repulsive. When I watch nature shows and lions attack gazelles and rip them apart I think it's sad and gross. Doesn't mean I think there's something wrong with it, but it's gross. 

Anyway, I think he presented it in a fair light. He never said feeding a dog raw food is repulsive, just the thought of wolves killing and eating an entire animal. And he did point out that it was a dog's natural diet, which means that most people that visit his site will read that.


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## DarDog (Sep 6, 2010)

I just wanted to clarify, that more than 90% of commercial raw chicken is contaminated with campylobacter. Now, this probably won't cause any problems with the dogs, but it is one of the most common causes of gastrointestinal illness in humans. So, I would agree, that for a human, you do have to be more careful with raw than kibble.


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

DarDog said:


> I just wanted to clarify, that more than 90% of commercial raw chicken is contaminated with campylobacter. Now, this probably won't cause any problems with the dogs, but it is one of the most common causes of gastrointestinal illness in humans. So, I would agree, that for a human, you do have to be more careful with raw than kibble.


90%? that seems awfully high....

could you show me the article where you found that?


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## DarDog (Sep 6, 2010)

Sorry, I should have just referenced it when I said it...

Yeah, it's actually been presented to me in presentations, etc (I'm doing a master's in Epidemiology and I took a course on food-borne disease and infectious disease). I'm sure it's all over the place. When I've used that information (the 90%), I sourced: "Foodborne diseases / edited by Dean O. Cliver, Hans P. Riemann".

You can also find many regional studies (there are lots!) by searching "campylobacter retail chicken" in google scholar. The numbers vary, but are consistently high for campylobacter. Salmonella is similar, but not as high.


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## ubershann (Jul 29, 2010)

Yep, chicken is pretty gross. That's why I'm really picky about the chicken I buy for myself, and am not too upset that Tiki can't eat chicken. 

In a 2001 study by Craven, Stern, Bailey, and Cox chickens were tested for _Clostridium perfringens_. They found 94% of the flocks were positive, 81% of which were positive by 2 weeks of age. In the processing plant 81% tested positive.

And that's not even getting into the genetic modification to the chickens, the genetic modification to the corn they're fed, the antibiotics, hormones, steroids, and other various chemicals.


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

DarDog said:


> Sorry, I should have just referenced it when I said it...
> 
> Yeah, it's actually been presented to me in presentations, etc (I'm doing a master's in Epidemiology and I took a course on food-borne disease and infectious disease). I'm sure it's all over the place. When I've used that information (the 90%), I sourced: "Foodborne diseases / edited by Dean O. Cliver, Hans P. Riemann".
> 
> You can also find many regional studies (there are lots!) by searching "campylobacter retail chicken" in google scholar. The numbers vary, but are consistently high for campylobacter. Salmonella is similar, but not as high.


when you first posted this, i looked it up on google...just out of curiousity...just because the number seemed high, not because there isn't cause to believe they have e.coli/salmonella/campylobacter...but, it seems the little buggers are running rampant LOL

i also read there is an inside/outside wash used to keep the numbers down...and, again, with decent sanitisation, humans should be safe and dogs have the ability to kill these germs...wouldn't you think?


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## DarDog (Sep 6, 2010)

Yeah, very rampant, it's kinda gross, lol. 

What is the wash you are talking about?

Yeah, just as long as the surface on which the dog eats gets washed thoroughly, and hands, etc. get cleaned properly it should be ok. It is just more of a problem when there are little children (especially because they are all over the grund and putting everything in their mouth) around because they are more severely affected by food-borne disease.

I'm not as familiar with the dog-side with these bacteria, but they must be able to handle it :smile:.

PS - now in case you are scared to eat chicken; proper cooking does kill the bacteria!


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

DarDog said:


> Yeah, very rampant, it's kinda gross, lol.
> 
> What is the wash you are talking about?
> 
> ...


nah, i'll eat chicken, and so will my dogs...:smile:

though i've noticed that when i make chicken soup, the water is dirtier from foster farms chickens...and i have to change the water at least three times...when the water gets hot enough, you skim a greyish scum off...but you do it once and the water then becomes clear and clean...

foster farms....don't look right these days...so we're not using them anymore.

i'll see if i can find that 'inside outside wash' thing.....and post the link....

http://www.ag.auburn.edu/poul/virtuallibrary/oyarzabalcampylobacter.html



> The washing systems used during processing, some of which are called inside-outside bird washers (IOBW), may help reduce the number of Campylobacter spp. on carcasses. However, the reduction may not be of significance, or achieved consistently. In addition, the percentage of Campylobacter positive samples following the IOBW remains generally the same as pre-IOBW samples. In general, IOBWs reduce Campylobacter counts up to 0.7 log CFU/ml. The effectiveness of an IOBW to reduce Campylobacter, as well as other bacterial pathogens, depends greatly on the water volume/pressure and the level of chlorine in the water. These variables may be difficult to control consistently in commercial processing environments. The addition of an antimicrobial system, such as trisodium phosphate (TSP) or acidified sodium chlorite (ASC), to the washes produces a reduction of 1-1.7 log CFU/ml in the number of Campylobacter counts.


having re read this, i am now doing the back stroke....i may never eat chicken again LOL

i don't feed my dogs raw eggs, i can tell you that...and now i won't LOL


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## Jodysmom (Jan 9, 2010)

magicre said:


> nah, i'll eat chicken, and so will my dogs...:smile:
> 
> though i've noticed that when i make chicken soup, the water is dirtier from foster farms chickens...and i have to change the water at least three times...when the water gets hot enough, you skim a greyish scum off...but you do it once and the water then becomes clear and clean...
> 
> ...


I'm with you Re! We will eat our chicken and so will our dog. I will continue to practice good hygiene just like I do when I handle _*any *_food...vegies, fruit, and meat.


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## JayJayisme (Aug 2, 2009)

Well, as I suspected, my posts in the comments section of this site were recently deleted by the admin. I posted them on the first page of this thread if you want to see what I said. 

http://dogfoodchat.com/forum/raw-feeding/4419-so-i-came-across-website.html#post45126

I thought it brought balance to the topic over there, which was leaning towards commercial raw products, but I guess the admin disagreed or couldn't handle my bluntness. Too bad, I thought they would be interested in expanding the information on this topic to give it more balance. 

Silly me. :biggrin:


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