# wow....messed up.....



## RCTRIPLEFRESH5 (Feb 11, 2010)

cadaboms ghost worlds no.1 neapolitan mastiff - YouTube


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## Kat (Jul 12, 2011)

That looks so weird and unnatural! Poor dog  Is that from really bad breeding?


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## RCTRIPLEFRESH5 (Feb 11, 2010)

id assume so i really don't know!!! all i know is that that is not a healty neo. people are saying it's emaciated but it looks fat too me.


Kat said:


> That looks so weird and unnatural! Poor dog  Is that from really bad breeding?


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## hmbutler (Aug 4, 2011)

I'm so confused by that... wtf is wrong with it? Why is it's skin hanging so far down past it's actual body? or am I seeing things totally wrong? why would people breed to make that?? the poor dog :frown:


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## Unosmom (May 3, 2009)

gross, I dont see the appeal of these inbred dogs along with american bullies or whatever they are called


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## malluver1005 (Nov 15, 2009)

Ugh...poor dogs, that's just disgusting!!


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## Tahlz (Sep 15, 2011)

o my.. That poor dog ..


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## dogsarebetter (Nov 4, 2011)

eww. eww. ewwwwwwww.

thats unbelievable


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## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

Shame. He looks like such a friendly and sweet dog.


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## twoisplenty (Nov 12, 2008)

The above dog is championed. I do not think he is malnourished, just has excessive lose skin. Not in my personal taste but obviously appeals to others.


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## Caty M (Aug 13, 2010)

Neapolitan mastiffs have gotten out of control.. an old style one here:










and now:










It, like many breeds (bassets come to mind) have become a caricature of what the breed used to be, but I'll agree that the one above is grossly over-skinned. Skin is heavy! He looks miserable! No wonder neos have a lifespan of 3-5 years.


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## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

Caty M said:


> Neapolitan mastiffs have gotten out of control.. an old style one here:
> 
> 
> and now:
> ...


My Lord. We do such horrible things to our dogs.


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## RachelsaurusRexU (Sep 4, 2010)

THREE TO FIVE YEARS?! Holy hell, I did not know that. And people don't see the error in this?! 

How is that poor dog championed? It looks ill-bred and just generally very unhealthy. My goodness, I hate people more and more everyday.


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## DogLuver (Oct 19, 2011)

RachelsaurusRexU said:


> I hate people more and more everyday.


It's just so much easier to love dogs than people


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## 3Musketeers (Nov 4, 2010)

Ughh, that sickens me (although I have to admit his body weight looks better than a lot of Neos), exaggerations in breeds which obviously are for "looks" and do nothing to help the breed, in fact they hinder them. Plus tons of breeders seem to like to keep their Neos fat, as if it wasn't already bad enough that they have all that loose skin to drag.


Found this article and found it to be very interesting, these dogs were used as working dogs, before that the romans? I believe? use them as war-dogs:
Bandog Mastiffs

You can see a lot of the old-style Neos on here, and boy do they look so much better, they can function correctly.


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## DaneMama (Jun 27, 2008)

Just another breed people have managed to ruin by their inbreeding practices. So disgusting and just plain sad. The dogs are the ones that pay for their foolish mistakes in the end....:frown:


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## lucky (Jan 8, 2011)

It's awful the things people do, very unethical


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## xchairity_casex (Oct 8, 2011)

hink this is just sick personally>>>>>Teacup Puppies : Maltese, Yorkie, Chihuahua's Designer Puppies For Sale


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## lucky (Jan 8, 2011)

xchairity_casex said:


> hink this is just sick personally>>>>>Teacup Puppies : Maltese, Yorkie, Chihuahua's Designer Puppies For Sale


Absolutely shocking


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## DaneMama (Jun 27, 2008)

xchairity_casex said:


> hink this is just sick personally>>>>>Teacup Puppies : Maltese, Yorkie, Chihuahua's Designer Puppies For Sale


Oh don't get me started on puppies like this. They are medical disasters. Virtually non treatable medically too.


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## bernadettelevis (Feb 2, 2011)

xchairity_casex said:


> hink this is just sick personally>>>>>Teacup Puppies : Maltese, Yorkie, Chihuahua's Designer Puppies For Sale


OMG their eyes look like they will pop out any second....


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## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

Anyone answering an ad for a dog that has "designer" anywhere in the name can be assured of getting an ill-bred dog, but dang - those poor puppies look like a stuffed animal and not a real dog. That's just criminal.


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## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

Oh my god - look at what they are charging:



> Our Prices for Puppies are $3200 and up and prices are listed on our website. Check out our new payment plans and payment arrangements just for you!


My jaw is hanging to the floor.

Some for sale for $7500!!!!!!!


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## RCTRIPLEFRESH5 (Feb 11, 2010)

Caty M said:


> Neapolitan mastiffs have gotten out of control.. an old style one here:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


to be hoenst , the dog in the vid looks pretty happy....although he looks incestuous.
as for the two pics above.. iactually think the bottom pic looks better....that looks lie a normal healthy big neo....i see no prob with it.
and if the dog in y vid is a champion lawwwwwwwwwd haaaaaaaaavvvh muuuhccccccccyyyyyyyy


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## bernadettelevis (Feb 2, 2011)

RCTRIPLEFRESH5 said:


> to be hoenst , the dog in the vid looks pretty happy....although he looks incestuous.
> as for the two pics above.. iactually think the bottom pic looks better....that looks lie a normal healthy big neo....i see no prob with it.
> and if the dog in y vid is a champion lawwwwwwwwwd haaaaaaaaavvvh muuuhccccccccyyyyyyyy


seriously?????????????


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## bernadettelevis (Feb 2, 2011)

RCTRIPLEFRESH5 said:


> to be hoenst , the dog in the vid looks pretty happy....although he looks incestuous.
> as for the two pics above.. iactually think the bottom pic looks better....that looks lie a normal healthy big neo....i see no prob with it.
> and if the dog in y vid is a champion lawwwwwwwwwd haaaaaaaaavvvh muuuhccccccccyyyyyyyy


seriously?????????????


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## jdatwood (Apr 13, 2009)

bernadettelevis said:


> seriously?????????????


Agreed.... seriously RC?


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## RachelsaurusRexU (Sep 4, 2010)

RCTRIPLEFRESH5 said:


> to be hoenst , the dog in the vid looks pretty happy....although he looks incestuous.
> as for the two pics above.. iactually think the bottom pic looks better....that looks lie a normal healthy big neo....i see no prob with it.
> and if the dog in y vid is a champion lawwwwwwwwwd haaaaaaaaavvvh muuuhccccccccyyyyyyyy


??!?!!??!!!?? WHAT?! Is that a joke?

The old style dogs in the link that 3M posted are beautiful. When I think of Neos, THAT is what comes to mind. That is what they should like. I've never seen these ugly, unhealthy, overexaggerated sacks of skin like the poor pathetic creature in the video who can't see or hardly move. Do people really not think of the dogs and their health or happiness when they breed like that? That's horrendous. Those people should be shot.


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## Tobi (Mar 18, 2011)

RachelsaurusRexU said:


> ??!?!!??!!!?? WHAT?! Is that a joke?
> 
> The old style dogs in the link that 3M posted are beautiful. When I think of Neos, THAT is what comes to mind. That is what they should like. I've never seen these ugly, unhealthy, overexaggerated sacks of skin like the poor pathetic creature in the video who can't see or hardly move. Do people really not think of the dogs and their health or happiness when they breed like that? That's horrendous. Those people should be shot.


It is sad breeding just for that look... what is even more sad is that Westminster rewards for that... 2006's winner.


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## RachelsaurusRexU (Sep 4, 2010)

Tobi said:


> It is sad breeding just for that look... what is even more sad is that Westminster rewards for that... 2006's winner.
> 
> View attachment 4805


Ugh :-/ It's REALLY fat too.


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## Unosmom (May 3, 2009)

the dog above looks like a hippo, gross.


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## NewYorkDogue (Sep 27, 2011)

> My jaw is hanging to the floor.
> 
> Some for sale for $7500!!!!!!!


Hey, dig a little deeper (i.e.: go to "Premium Puppies link" and you will see these little designer freaks going for $12,000. and $13,000 dollars. 

Yep, count those zeros.

We, as a species, have gone completely mad...


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## KittyKat (Feb 11, 2011)

Breeders gone wrong. These dog breeds desperately need to be saved... there needs to be a health revolution in the dog world.


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## Celt (Dec 27, 2010)

Hate to say it, but it's breeding like this that influences me to go to some "BYB". Breeders that hold more to the "old", utiltarian conformation of the breeds. Daschunds that can jump over/on things, burrow, etc without worry about their backs, shepherds with "straight" backs that aren't work driven, etc. Of course, it would be very unlikely for any of their dogs to win in a conformation show 'cause they wouldn't have the "right" look. I'm not saying that BYB are the greatest (most aren't even adequate), but there are some out there that are better than the "champion" breeders, imo.


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## RachelsaurusRexU (Sep 4, 2010)

I don't think I'd consider someone to be a BYB just because they bred healthy, functional dogs that look the way they're supposed to. Obviously there's other criteria, but I think that's sort of the opposite of a BYB.


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## malluver1005 (Nov 15, 2009)

twoisplenty said:


> The above dog is championed.


Seriously? What is wrong with people...


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## KittyKat (Feb 11, 2011)

I was at a dog show a few weeks ago and saw a German Shepard with frog legs. I actually blurted out "oh my god that dog has frog legs!" when I saw it. Not sure if he heard, could care less otherwise... it was disturbing to see it walk.

Wasn't quite as bad as these ones, but definatley not what I would consider a "normal" german shepherd. Like what is shown in the link, many dog breeds have been altered heavily to suit the "look" that people desire, above and beyond what is healthy and normal for a dog.

Also a video comparing German Shepherds over the years (From American and German lines) can be found here.


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## Caty M (Aug 13, 2010)

RCTRIPLEFRESH5 said:


> to be hoenst , the dog in the vid looks pretty happy....although he looks incestuous.
> as for the two pics above.. iactually think the bottom pic looks better....that looks lie a normal healthy big neo....i see no prob with it.
> and if the dog in y vid is a champion lawwwwwwwwwd haaaaaaaaavvvh muuuhccccccccyyyyyyyy


He's not a "big, healthy neo". There is no such thing as a normal neo being healthy any more. They suffer huge problems based on structure. Around 50% of the dogs have hip dysplasia as per the OFA website, cherry eye, entropion, ectropion, and skin infections in their folds. Those are purely based on structure that we have bred them for purely for the show ring. They suffer many other health problems also- bloat, elbow dysplasia, cardiomyopathy.. Apparently most breeders don't recommend that the dog go up or down stairs too often.. do you really think that the dog is physically able to do the job it was meant to do- a war dog and property guardian? That requires an ATHLETIC dog. Neo's today are quite the opposite. Personally I find your comment extremely insensitive and totally uneducated.

The neo in the first picture is gorgeous- good muscle tone, no excess skin, athletic looking. THAT is the better dog.


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## Caty M (Aug 13, 2010)

Also- I do not think that breeders who don't show are backyard breeders necessarily. I would place a breeder in high regard if they are breeding for health and temperament first- TESTED dogs- appearance last. I think it's great that people are trying to bring back the original breed. God knows the one now in no way resembles the original.


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## KittyKat (Feb 11, 2011)

Caty M said:


> Also- I do not think that breeders who don't show are backyard breeders necessarily. I would place a breeder in high regard if they are breeding for health and temperament first- TESTED dogs- appearance last. I think it's great that people are trying to bring back the original breed. God knows the one now in no way resembles the original.


I would think if they don't show they should be doing something with their dog to prove its worthy of breeding. In the case of sighthounds it could be lure coursing, or with herding dogs it could be herding or say agility or companion dogs could be therapy dogs and good citizen certified or something. 

Something that proves that their dog has reason to be bred, and not just "because". On top of that they should be healthy and fully able to do their jobs. I don't think showing alone proves their virtue though, temperament and health are as vital if not moreso in some breeds where health seems to have fallen by the wayside.

Like our dog for example recently got her last point for her championship title. She also lure courses (and is damn good at it) and is about to become a therapy dog. So she's not... "all show no go" like some of these dogs are. I think that's important. If your dog can't do the job it was meant for, ie those neos and german shepherds... whats the point? Companion dogs should be very healthy dogs... but many are not (ie pugs). I see them in the show ring breathing so heavily and loudly as though they are gasping for breath. Not cool.


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## malluver1005 (Nov 15, 2009)

KittyKat said:


> I was at a dog show a few weeks ago and saw a German Shepard with frog legs. I actually blurted out "oh my god that dog has frog legs!" when I saw it. Not sure if he heard, could care less otherwise... it was disturbing to see it walk.
> 
> Wasn't quite as bad as these ones, but definatley not what I would consider a "normal" german shepherd. Like what is shown in the link, many dog breeds have been altered heavily to suit the "look" that people desire, above and beyond what is healthy and normal for a dog.
> 
> Also a video comparing German Shepherds over the years (From American and German lines) can be found here.


That really irritates me...seeing these "show" German Sheperds like this. And the judge kept saying that the "show" GSD is better than the "working" GSD because it is closer to the standard. Who the  cares about the standard. Those GSD's are not healthy...


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## Caty M (Aug 13, 2010)

KittyKat said:


> I would think if they don't show they should be doing something with their dog to prove its worthy of breeding. In the case of sighthounds it could be lure coursing, or with herding dogs it could be herding or say agility or companion dogs could be therapy dogs and good citizen certified or something.
> 
> Something that proves that their dog has reason to be bred, and not just "because". On top of that they should be healthy and fully able to do their jobs. I don't think showing alone proves their virtue though, temperament and health are as vital if not moreso in some breeds where health seems to have fallen by the wayside.
> 
> Like our dog for example recently got her last point for her championship title. She also lure courses (and is damn good at it) and is about to become a therapy dog. So she's not... "all show no go" like some of these dogs are. I think that's important. If your dog can't do the job it was meant for, ie those neos and german shepherds... whats the point? Companion dogs should be very healthy dogs... but many are not (ie pugs). I see them in the show ring breathing so heavily and loudly as though they are gasping for breath. Not cool.


I agree to a point. I think that dogs absolutely should be able to do the job they are bred for and if they are not actively working (sheep herding, hunting for example) then they should be proven in a sport of some kind. I don't think a dog's looks has any basis on whether or not they should be bred.. who really cares about a breed standard? Breeds existed far before any standard did, and they did just fine back then. I can't really think of any positive that has risen from dog shows. To be honest all I see is increasingly exaggerated features, size, declining health and longevity, lowered work drive and overbreeding. Just because one dog wins a major dog show doesn't mean it should sire hundreds of litters. That is DANGEROUS for a breed.

Now I know there are many healthy breeds also.. most terriers come to mind, and whippets.


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## stajbs (Jun 5, 2010)

Seriously RC how is it you always find this weird stuff? Have you ever seen up close and personal what breeders have done to the neo? It is very sad, they can barely move, so much for the war dog. So many breeds have been ruined, and are incapable of performing the jobs/tasks they were bred to do. All because it's about flash, and extreme, and god knows what else the public may want. It's just sick!!


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## Tobi (Mar 18, 2011)

found something 








Comparison on origins^







Italian working origin ^ he's a beautiful specimen imo... absolutely perfect.
I can't attach the other one but here is an article about them...


The Mastino’s type, its unique appearance, was created in the Neapolitan countryside by years of inbreeding. As a result, the traits that make the Mastino an unusual dog: its wrinkles, dewlap, loose skin, enormous bone, and distinct lumbering gait, are created by an accumulation of recessive genes. To breed a sound dog with these attributes is truly an art…and a challenge.

Inbreeding for a cause... :thumb: uke:


Source:More Neapolitan nonsense « Retrieverman's Weblog Check this site out, the last picture i couldn't link... it is astounding.


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## catahoulamom (Sep 23, 2010)

There's a neo mastiff puppy that comes into the store I work at. He's less than a year old and can't even walk up and down stairs. The dog's hips (or elbows, maybe?) are always painful, and "pop" in and out according to the owner. He insists its a normal thing for the breed. :/ The dog has already had two surgeries that I know of (not including neutering - he's intact). He can't even stand comfortably on the linoleum floor, so he slides down and just lays wherever he is at until he is forced to get up and move. Worst part is, this man has serious money and surprisingly did a lot of research and got him from what is considered a high-quality breeder. And these are the kinds of dogs these "top notch" breeders are churning out? 

The dog doesn't even look as monstrous as the one in the picture that RC posted (no offense to the dog, poor thing).


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## KittyKat (Feb 11, 2011)

Caty M said:


> I agree to a point. I think that dogs absolutely should be able to do the job they are bred for and if they are not actively working (sheep herding, hunting for example) then they should be proven in a sport of some kind. I don't think a dog's looks has any basis on whether or not they should be bred.. who really cares about a breed standard? Breeds existed far before any standard did, and they did just fine back then. I can't really think of any positive that has risen from dog shows. To be honest all I see is increasingly exaggerated features, size, declining health and longevity, lowered work drive and overbreeding. Just because one dog wins a major dog show doesn't mean it should sire hundreds of litters. That is DANGEROUS for a breed.
> 
> Now I know there are many healthy breeds also.. most terriers come to mind, and whippets.


Well you have to think of it like this, if there was no standard... there would be no breed. Here's why: Lets say there are no standards for dog breeds, so you get someone taking their GSD and breeding it to some other breed and saying "Well they are still GSD's!" when the result doesn't look like what you would think a GSD would look like or someone takes their dog which barely looks like a GSD and breeds it to some other dog that doesn't really look like one and so on and so forth.... standards are your dictionary definitions of dogs. Now perhaps they get out of wack.

Whippets have fairly simple guidelines. 

This does not fit the standard.

Such is the case with current show dogs, they do not meet the classical definition of the dog.


Now, I 100% agree on the whole siring litters thing. I'm not a fan. I know *why* it happens, but I still don't think it's kosher. I think it's sad how many breeds have gotten so extreme... and I think a lot of that has to do with people liking those features, even though they are not healthy. Part of the reason I like whippets is that they haven't really changed since they first came into being.


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## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

KittyKat said:


> Well you have to think of it like this, if there was no standard... there would be no breed. [/URL].
> 
> 
> This does not fit the standard.
> ...


Then they should be certified to excel at something they were meant to do before they are allowed to be shown for conformation.


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## NewYorkDogue (Sep 27, 2011)

> This does not fit the standard.


Yikes. Seriously? Ummm... what is going on with this creature?


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## Tobi (Mar 18, 2011)

KittyKat said:


> Well you have to think of it like this, if there was no standard... there would be no breed. Here's why: Lets say there are no standards for dog breeds, so you get someone taking their GSD and breeding it to some other breed and saying "Well they are still GSD's!" when the result doesn't look like what you would think a GSD would look like or someone takes their dog which barely looks like a GSD and breeds it to some other dog that doesn't really look like one and so on and so forth.... standards are your dictionary definitions of dogs. Now perhaps they get out of wack.
> 
> Whippets have fairly simple guidelines.
> 
> ...


Wendy is a special Whippet though...Gene defects "Double muscled", very odd, but that wasn't the case of bad breeding from what i understand. But i see what you're saying.


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## KittyKat (Feb 11, 2011)

Tobi said:


> Wendy is a special Whippet though...Gene defects "Double muscled", very odd, but that wasn't the case of bad breeding from what i understand. But i see what you're saying.


Yes they call them "bully whippets". Not bad breeding in most cases(it's a recessive gene afaik so it can sit in lines for a long while before being expressed - i suppose some people could breed "for" it... luckily so far that doesn't seem to be the case), but they still do not fit the 'standard'.


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## Caty M (Aug 13, 2010)

But if she is papered- then she is still a whippet. I doubt that "in the good old days" she would be bred anyway as there is no way she could do what a normal whippet can do- run like the wind. 

I'm just saying that before people came in and wrote a standard, there were still very distinct breeds. In fact it was after the standard was written that people messed around with it.


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## KittyKat (Feb 11, 2011)

Caty M said:


> But if she is papered- then she is still a whippet. I doubt that "in the good old days" she would be bred anyway as there is no way she could do what a normal whippet can do- run like the wind.
> 
> I'm just saying that before people came in and wrote a standard, there were still very distinct breeds. In fact it was after the standard was written that people messed around with it.


Ah, but to get papered you have to have your dog registered to a kennel association, and to do that you have to prove that your dog is a purebred dog.

Back before we had standards on paper there were fewer breeds, and most were working breeds with distinct jobs. They still had standards for their breeds though, a german shepherd had to be able to do x,y,z in order to be useful, and they still had to look a certain way. They just didn't have associations saying they should look like X. 

I don't think getting rid of standards would solve a single thing. We have "breeders" now selling "designer" breeds for top dollar. No standards there.


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## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

KittyKat said:


> I don't think getting rid of standards would solve a single thing. We have "breeders" now selling "designer" breeds for top dollar. No standards there.


Yes and apparently people are willing to pay upwards of $12,000 for them!!! What kind of regular AKC puppy would get that kind of dough??

People are just idiots. 

I can't imagine the difficulty in doing surgery or even dosing medication on a 2 pound dog. Shoot, their heart is probably smaller than a pea. I think my dog is tiny at 10 pounds.


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## xchairity_casex (Oct 8, 2011)

i suppose i cannot say much as i like a nice thick egg-headed bull terrier much better then the old styled ones but personally ive never ehard of problems caused by those egg shaped heads they dont really have breathing problems or brain deformities due to the egg shape sure they have there issues buth tey are not really insane ones other then the ocd but anyways perhapes im wrong and am rambling
but i think this is a nice looking BT>>>
View attachment 4813


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## malluver1005 (Nov 15, 2009)

xellil said:


> I can't imagine the difficulty in doing surgery or even dosing medication on a 2 pound dog. Shoot, their heart is probably smaller than a pea.


Agree. That's all I'm gonna say...


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## Dude and Bucks Mamma (May 14, 2011)

I love neos and Nick and I are torn between a neo and a dane for our next dog but THAT dog is just... Idk. It disgusts me. There are neos out there with MUCH less skin who look much healthier. I have seen some beautiful neos in my life and that dog is not one of them.


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## Tobi (Mar 18, 2011)

xchairity_casex said:


> i suppose i cannot say much as i like a nice thick egg-headed bull terrier much better then the old styled ones but personally ive never ehard of problems caused by those egg shaped heads they dont really have breathing problems or brain deformities due to the egg shape sure they have there issues buth tey are not really insane ones other then the ocd but anyways perhapes im wrong and am rambling
> but i think this is a nice looking BT>>>
> View attachment 4813


They aren't riddled with health problems though... I like both, i tend to prefer non-exaggerated heads though  but i really do love any BT :lol:


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## Dude and Bucks Mamma (May 14, 2011)

malluver1005 said:


> That really irritates me...seeing these "show" German Sheperds like this. And the judge kept saying that the "show" GSD is better than the "working" GSD because it is closer to the standard. Who the  cares about the standard. Those GSD's are not healthy...


The standard SHOULD be based off of the working GSD. There shouldn't BE a difference between the show lines and the working lines. That's why I love blueticks. You would be hard pressed to find a bluetick breeder who breeds for show. For now, if you want a bluetick you have to get them from hunters. I don't doubt that there are breeders out there who breed for show dogs but they are few and far between for the time being.



KittyKat said:


> Well you have to think of it like this, if there was no standard... there would be no breed. Here's why: Lets say there are no standards for dog breeds, so you get someone taking their GSD and breeding it to some other breed and saying "Well they are still GSD's!" when the result doesn't look like what you would think a GSD would look like or someone takes their dog which barely looks like a GSD and breeds it to some other dog that doesn't really look like one and so on and so forth.... standards are your dictionary definitions of dogs. Now perhaps they get out of wack.
> 
> Whippets have fairly simple guidelines.
> 
> ...


I don't know if this has to do with breeding (I'm sure it does but I know it wasn't on purpose) but she actually has something wrong with her. It's something like she has 2 of every muscle or something like that. The owner talked about how she takes all sorts of extra care and what not. She also has normal whippets. I watched it on some animal medical show a few years back. She looked like a very sweet girl even though she struggled to get around sometimes. I couldn't help but admire her person for taking her on when most people would have put her down.

Now that I have read the whole thread... Nick and I have been looking at the old style neos. Seeing them side by side it is easy to pick out the type we have decided we like. I want a dog capable of following an army to war. Not a dog who is going to get tired a few miles in. I love showing but if not showing is what it takes to have a healthy, non overweight neo, then that's what I would choose. 

Abi and I were talking about the kennel clubs earlier today. We agreed that being registered with kennel clubs (namely the AKC) is good for a breed in that it helps create more awareness for the breeds, especially those who are becoming harder and harder to find, but these kennel clubs need to take a step back and realize that these dogs are not just things to be looked at and they need to just buck up and accept that some of these standards have created unhealthy breeds. We can't fix it overnight but if the bigger kennel clubs would gradually change the standards to the "deformed" breeds like the GSDs and neos, we could have healthier dogs in the show rings who could also go out and perform the duties they were originally bred for.

I hate that people and the kennel clubs can just ignore the health issues and award dogs for being unhealthy. I may not have worded all of this right and I am sure there will be some people who disagree with me but I understand it in my own peabrain. I guess a simple way to put it would be that I have a love-hate relationship with kennel clubs. I love that they provide me a wonderful activity to do with my dogs but I hate that they have caused the "deforming" of a lot of breeds.


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## malluver1005 (Nov 15, 2009)

Dude and Bucks Mamma said:


> The standard SHOULD be based off of the working GSD. There shouldn't BE a difference between the show lines and the working lines.


I understand that...I just hate seeing these GSD's with ridiculously sloped backs being awarded all the time.


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## Celt (Dec 27, 2010)

Sadly, it's not the *kennel* club that causes the problem. Kennel clubs are kind of the warehouse for the breed information and paperwork. It's the *breed* club that "tells" the kennel club what the breed is suppose to "be". So, it's supposedly people who "love" the breed that have set up these dogs' "issues". I do think a "standard" is necessary, but extremes need to be at the very least limited. Afterall, without a standard, you wouldn't have the "uniqueness" of each breed.


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## CorgiPaws (Mar 31, 2009)

RCTRIPLEFRESH5 said:


> to be hoenst , the dog in the vid looks pretty happy....although he looks incestuous.
> as for the two pics above.. iactually think the bottom pic looks better....that looks lie a normal healthy big neo....i see no prob with it.
> and if the dog in y vid is a champion lawwwwwwwwwd haaaaaaaaavvvh muuuhccccccccyyyyyyyy


RC, RC, RC. 
You can't POSSIBLY be serious here. 
That dog, with bags and bags of hanging skin, that looks like it can hardly move, is clearly overweight, and has an absolutely miserable look about it.... seems like a "normal healthy neo" to you? Are we looking at the same picture?!:twitch::twitch::help:



Tobi said:


> It is sad breeding just for that look... what is even more sad is that Westminster rewards for that... 2006's winner.


I find that most show breeding is more about a look than anything. I say most, not all, and it doesn't go across the board. SO many breeds are in danger because of poor breeding. The worst part about it, is it's the breeders most praised that are doing this crap. I mean, after all... they're CHAMPIONS!





Celt said:


> Hate to say it, but it's breeding like this that influences me to go to some "BYB". Breeders that hold more to the "old", utiltarian conformation of the breeds. Daschunds that can jump over/on things, burrow, etc without worry about their backs, shepherds with "straight" backs that aren't work driven, etc. Of course, it would be very unlikely for any of their dogs to win in a conformation show 'cause they wouldn't have the "right" look. I'm not saying that BYB are the greatest (most aren't even adequate), but there are some out there that are better than the "champion" breeders, imo.


I think that really just depends on what your definition of a "backyard breeder" really is, because if you ask 100 different people, you will get 100 different answers. 
I personally hate the term for that reason. I also hate "reputable" as if someone being praised by many makes them worth a crap in reality. lol. 
I would consider anyone breeding dogs that do not have a healthy range of movement, with healthy lifespans, and well... good overall health to be a poor quality breeder. MANY show breeders fall into this category. In fact, ALL show breeders of some breeds would fall in this category to me. 
Health, temperament, then looks makes most sense to me, and that's what I personally look for and will strive for. Unfortunately, that CH is the end all be all to so many breeders and buyers that that breeding practices like the ones that went into that dog in the video are not only gotten away with- but strived for and praised. 



NewYorkDogue said:


> Yikes. Seriously? Ummm... what is going on with this creature?


Someone, somewhere, decided to take a large, wrinkly dog... and make it larger and wrinklier. It's what we do with breed characteristics, dont'cha know?
If it's big, make it bigger. 
If it's small, make it smaller. 
If it's short, make it shorter. 
If it's long, make it longer. 
If it's wrinkly, make it wrinklier. 
If it's smushy, make it smushier. 
It the very basics of the evolution of breed standards. TO hell with health and functionality! 



Dude and Bucks Mamma said:


> The standard SHOULD be based off of the working GSD. There shouldn't BE a difference between the show lines and the working lines.


This x1000000
I don't understand WHY there are two looks to so many working breeds. One that is true to the standard, but would be laughed out of the ring and deemed "unworthy" of being bread because they're too healthy and functional or something, and others that are bred to look a certain way, but might not actually be able to do things like heard, agility, hunt, or, oh, I dunno... WALK. 



Dude and Bucks Mamma said:


> I hate that people and the kennel clubs can just ignore the health issues and award dogs for being unhealthy. I may not have worded all of this right and I am sure there will be some people who disagree with me but I understand it in my own peabrain. I guess a simple way to put it would be that I have a love-hate relationship with kennel clubs. I love that they provide me a wonderful activity to do with my dogs but I hate that they have caused the "deforming" of a lot of breeds.


Well, the parent clubs set the standard, the AKC, CKC, UKC, etc. are simply registries and information data banks on the breeds, which also provide the platform for shows, but are entirely uninvolved in the setting of the standards. 
I think they should be involved. 
They might not be able to set the standard, but they COULD require applicable health testing be performed before a dog gets a CH on their name. 
They COULD deny titles to dogs that develop health problems that are passed through genetics. 
But they won't. And why won't they? Well, have you ever SEEN those registration fees? Do you know what it COSTS to show a dog? That CH is dang expensive, and if ONLY healthy dogs could earn them, and only healthy dog could enter the beauty pageant, well... then they're not raking in the cash. The money trail is really that simple. 



I'm really annoyed by the fad of over exaggerating dogs for the sake of looks. I can certainly appreciate unique characteristics, but seriously... I'm not really sure how showing even preserves the breed standard like it claims to do, when so many fads come and go and change it all the time. 
Perhaps if I were passionate about different breeds I would feel differently, but I have three breeds of passion, ALL of which have one exaggerated feature or another that stands to be or has been destroyed by some stupid show fad that a bunch of men and women in formal wear decided was the end all be all. Frankly, it's disgusting. 

Pembroke Welsh Corgis. 
A respectable breed standard in my opinion, as their short stature actually plays a role in their herding ability. However, they go through fads with an extreme exaggerated chest paired with legs SO short that the combination results in dogs that have virtually no range of motion or stamina because they can hardly run, and couldn't herd a turtle if their life depended on it. I mean, they're short and stocky, so we MUST make them shorter and stockier, right?
Show bred: (this one has a CH)








And a working Corgi:








Look, Corgis actually have legs, and can move and stuff, and don't drag their chests!


Boxers are one of the few brachy breeds that are not yet so exaggerated by the standard and showing they can hardly breathe. I hope to DOG they never are. but I look at pekes. And I look at Shih Tzus. And I look at pugs. ...and I just can't be that hopeful that my breed might not be next. 

Great Danes are giant, so we must make them gianter. (please ignore that I just made up a word) I seriously gag when I see stud ads for CH males ( or even non CH) that boast about their 180lb dog standing 36" at the shoulders.... or puppy ads boasting that their 170lb female was bred to a 180lb males, and these pups are going to be HUGE! Yay, reserve yours today. Breed standard calls for males to be at least 120lbs and 30", and females at least 100 and 28".... yet my 140lb, 34" male is considered "small" and my 110-115lb, 31" female by so many show-goers now. I don't get it. I really don't. 






ALL that said. I get breed standards and showing. I do, I really do. I mean.... I want a dane that looks like a dane and without having some kind of standard set forth, it's very easy for "purebred" dogs to become very far from what they should look like. 
I like the LOOK of a dane, so when I buy one, I don't want it to LOOK like a greyhound.(Just using an example I've seen often, nothing against GH's)
That being said, when the standard becomes detrimental to the overall health, longevity, or preservation of a breed.... the standard can be thrown out the window for all I care. If it deformed an animal to the point of difficult movement (GSD) or exaggerates a dog to the point of being nearly medically untreatable (teacup and pocket anythings) or limits the gene pool to a devastating extent (Dane color code) or creates breathing issues (pugs, pekes, shih tzu, etc) or otherwise has a negative effect.... that's when showing has gone all wrong, to me.


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## Dude and Bucks Mamma (May 14, 2011)

Celt said:


> Sadly, it's not the *kennel* club that causes the problem. Kennel clubs are kind of the warehouse for the breed information and paperwork. It's the *breed* club that "tells" the kennel club what the breed is suppose to "be". So, it's supposedly people who "love" the breed that have set up these dogs' "issues". I do think a "standard" is necessary, but extremes need to be at the very least limited. Afterall, without a standard, you wouldn't have the "uniqueness" of each breed.


Ah, there you go. You understand that part better than I do. I guess I am basically saying that WHOEVER writes the standard and makes the changes should not be doing so. But it is also partly up to the judges to uphold the standard. I talked to a judge the other day via email who was telling me about how he was doing the breed judging of... .Oh, I can't remember what breed, but it was one of those that needs to be cleaned up like the GSD and neo... and while he awarded a dog as best of breed he told the whole group that if he had the option of not giving anyone that title he would have done so because none of the dogs there were of standard (and in this case the below [written] standard is quickly becoming the new typical type). He blatantly said that none of them were deserving of first place. I have heard of this becoming more and more common. I think I even read about an incident of it in a magazine or article somewhere.


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## malluver1005 (Nov 15, 2009)

PuppyPaws said:


> I find that most show breeding is more about a look than anything.


Exactly!! Beauty pageant for dogs...


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