# Spaying/Neutering Confusion - HELP!



## Itty bitty Kitty (Dec 26, 2011)

I'm getting a German Sheperd puppy next year in winter. Most likely female but still undecided.

I am SO confused! Vets and other sources keep hyping about fixing your dog super early, especially in females claiming to have health benefits and no side effects.

Personally I want to wait until my dog is fully grown before then so it won't interfere with their growth and cause possible complications. ( I don't want to increase the chances of hip dysplasia!) This approach just makes a lot more sense to me. 

However, I keep reading that, in females there is a higher chance of her getting breast cancer ( and other infections) for each heat cycle she gets. Either side claims better health. On one end I worry about bone/ organ immaturity and hip dysplasia. On the other hand cancer. Even breed-specific sources claim things like: 



> the earlier you spay your dog, the more health risks you are deleting for her down the road, such as breast and other types of cancers, or pyometra, among others.
> 
> In fact, if you spay you dog before her first heat cycle, you actually give her the most health benefits of all associated with the spaying process.


I'm seeing this* EVERYWHERE*, more often than the possible complications of early spaying. I'm disturbed because I'm pretty sure this can't be completely true. 

I'm dumbfounded. 

This makes it harder to trust vet and professional recommendations and worried I'll make the wrong decision thinking I'm making the best one for my dog. I feel like I'm reading misleading things. 

Please, share with me your experiences on how it's like dealing with your dog in heat and when you fixed them and how they are doing now?

For those of you who have dealt with German Shepherds, or larger breeds, when are they considered fully grown?

Personally, I'm thinking about not spaying until she's 2 years old, maybe a year and a half earliest if I'm given a really good reason. 

Currently I'm still doing more research on this, but you guys can help me with your input and useful links 
_
P.S - We plan to get a kitten once our dog is a year or older. However I'm going to assume I should probably have the cat join our family after I've spayed our dog? I'm concerned about heat cycles would encourage our dog to chase or be more aggressive towards the cat, especially if they are the same gender._


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## DaneMama (Jun 27, 2008)

I personally am a fan of letting all dogs, but especially large and giant breed dogs mature fully before sterilizing them. It seems unfair to them to take away their major source of hormones while they're growing. My current vet agrees with me and says that in her opinion and experience dogs that are sterilized once they're fully mature tend to be healthier overall, as well as have a better body condition. 

I wont be spaying any of my girls until they're at least 2 years old from now on. 

As far as the kitty issue goes...I know this sounds kinda crazy but I'd get a kitten shortly after getting a puppy. Like before the puppy reaches 4 months old, but the younger your pup is the better. Get well situated with your new pup, get a good routine down and then get a kitten. Cats by far are way less intensive than dogs as far as training and upkeep go. I recommend getting a cat sooner rather than later because you could have a really hard time introducing a cat later in life...unless you did extensive socialization with cats on a very regular basis (weekly at the very least) until you get a cat. This is just my opinion because I know from experience that adult dogs and kittens don't always mix well...we had to put one of our kittens down last Christmas eve after one of our dogs attacked it. We were so devastated :frown:


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## Tobi (Mar 18, 2011)

I 100% parrot what Natalie says... sound advice, and i likely will never spay or neuter again until 2 years at least, if ever.

Dogs were designed from nose to tail to prey on smaller animals, so depending on your dogs drive, and the training that you instill it may never be safe to have a kitty, but what was said already is a great idea, but. i can attest it doesn't always work. Tobi was always playing with Zeus our old kitty, (2 at the time we got tobi) Tobi played with him until Tobi started to hurt him, and then he began to see him as prey, and grabbed him by the head and neck a few times, and it was time to find Zeus a new home sadly :frown: Even though he was raised with him, i'd have never trusted him with him, or believe that he wouldn't have eventually killed him because of his drive, which can be pretty intense at times.


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## Liz (Sep 27, 2010)

We show and breed so all my dogs are intact and have always been. We have never had any cancers and I have just recently had a girl with a bout of open pyometra, which we treated sucessfully at home. She is a middle age girl and there are preventative steps I should have taken. She will be bred this Spring. The only time I advocate young spay/neuter is for less than responsible owners. Owners on this forum love their dogs and are very responsible. You would do your pup a world of good by waiting to spay until she is an adult. I do not notice excess frustrations unless the boys play the fool. 

I would also get a kitten either before or very soon after the pup.


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## Chocx2 (Nov 16, 2009)

I also agree, if you are going to neuter them wait until they are older and grown. All of my animals are intact except one, by contract I had to neuter him if I had to do it all over again I wouldn't do it. I don't breed and yes its a bit of a problem when a female is in season but for one week a year its a small sacrifice for my furry friends. Just have to separate them during those couple of days the dogs take care of the rest..


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## ShanniBella (Jul 1, 2011)

Being there are pros and cons to everything in life it also goes for spay and neuter. I once was very adimant on fixing animals at 6 months of age.....but no more. My last two dogs have been left intact until maturity before being fixed. I'm waiting to get my blue staffy girl fixed. She is getting spayed March of 2012 when she will be 20 months old. She is actually in her second cycle now. A bitch is something I would never not fix because it is more common for pyometra after the age of 7 in an intact female. Most responsible and reputable breeders will spay there female once retired from the show ring and breeding. 
Also, just a little example of the differences in intact vs. fixed at 6 months.....If you have ever compared an intact Rottweiler to a dog who was neutered at 6 months from the same litter you will see a huge difference in structure and all over body type. A neutered male especially tends to have a smaller head, more leggy (tall), and finer boned. I have had both intact males and fixed males and I will no longer neuter or spay until 18 months at least but may even wait until 2 or 3. A bitch is fine to spay after 18 months IMO........the growth platelets are usually closed by then. This is one of those things where if you ask five different people you will get varying opinions. There is some great websites online that give you the pros and cons. Here are a couple 
http://www.naiaonline.org/pdfs/LongTermHealthEffectsOfSpayNeuterInDogs.pdf

Canine Sports Productions: Early Spay-Neuter Considerations for the Canine Athlete


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## Itty bitty Kitty (Dec 26, 2011)

Ideally, I'd want to get a kitten shortly after we get the puppy. I completely agree, introducing a cat while the puppy is young is much more beneficial. The only reason my husband and I are holding off a little is because of financial reasons. Unfortunately we won't be able to afford both a dog and a cat immediately. ( At least with our current financial situation atm.) Otherwise I would have LOVED to give my dog a kitty sibling. I will definitely have to take some precautions about it but I'm pretty sure with consistent training, and as you mentioned, early socialization, I'm sure we can work something out. Thank you very much for your advice! If we're lucky, I might get a better job to improve my finances so I can budget both a dog and a cat to grow up together


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## Itty bitty Kitty (Dec 26, 2011)

ShanniBella said:


> Being there are pros and cons to everything in life it also goes for spay and neuter. I once was very adimant on fixing animals at 6 months of age.....but no more. My last two dogs have been left intact until maturity before being fixed. I'm waiting to get my blue staffy girl fixed. She is getting spayed March of 2012 when she will be 20 months old. She is actually in her second cycle now. A bitch is something I would never not fix because it is more common for pyometra after the age of 7 in an intact female. Most responsible and reputable breeders will spay there female once retired from the show ring and breeding.
> Also, just a little example of the differences in intact vs. fixed at 6 months.....If you have ever compared an intact Rottweiler to a dog who was neutered at 6 months from the same litter you will see a huge difference in structure and all over body type. A neutered male especially tends to have a smaller head, more leggy (tall), and finer boned. I have had both intact males and fixed males and I will no longer neuter or spay until 18 months at least but may even wait until 2 or 3. A bitch is fine to spay after 18 months IMO........the growth platelets are usually closed by then. This is one of those things where if you ask five different people you will get varying opinions. There is some great websites online that give you the pros and cons. Here are a couple
> http://www.naiaonline.org/pdfs/LongTermHealthEffectsOfSpayNeuterInDogs.pdf
> 
> Canine Sports Productions: Early Spay-Neuter Considerations for the Canine Athlete


Thank you so much for your words of wisdom and the links!


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## Itty bitty Kitty (Dec 26, 2011)

Tobi said:


> I 100% parrot what Natalie says... sound advice, and i likely will never spay or neuter again until 2 years at least, if ever.
> 
> Dogs were designed from nose to tail to prey on smaller animals, so depending on your dogs drive, and the training that you instill it may never be safe to have a kitty, but what was said already is a great idea, but. i can attest it doesn't always work. Tobi was always playing with Zeus our old kitty, (2 at the time we got tobi) Tobi played with him until Tobi started to hurt him, and then he began to see him as prey, and grabbed him by the head and neck a few times, and it was time to find Zeus a new home sadly :frown: Even though he was raised with him, i'd have never trusted him with him, or believe that he wouldn't have eventually killed him because of his drive, which can be pretty intense at times.


How old was Tobi when he started seeing Zeus as prey? Was it because Zeus would start running away from Tobi? I know dogs are naturally inclined to chase after whatever runs away from them, and over all, there's so little we can do to control that drive. What are the red flags I should look out for?


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## Tobi (Mar 18, 2011)

Itty bitty Kitty said:


> How old was Tobi when he started seeing Zeus as prey? Was it because Zeus would start running away from Tobi? I know dogs are naturally inclined to chase after whatever runs away from them, and over all, there's so little we can do to control that drive. What are the red flags I should look out for?


He was ALWAYS very interested in kitty, from the day we brought him home, The scratches weren't a deterrent for him either, kitty was more fun even with pain... lol.
When he started to get really rough with Zeus was a little over a year old about 6 months ago. He would constantly be after him, and i truly love drivey dogs, so i couldn't bring myself to continually correct the behavior because he then wouldn't even chase a flirt pole :frown: from the moment he woke up to the moment he went to sleep he was after the cat, and he ended up snapping Zeus collar off of his neck in one quick bite, that was the last straw.

It's hard to say whether a dog is after the cat for a meal or after the cat to play, I don't think Tobi would take a bite out of him.... but i never trusted him alone with him either... i was afraid of Zeus getting hurt from rough play or Tobi getting an eye out from Zeus claws.

It wasn't because he ran away from him either... most times Tobi would play bow him and nip him and bully him until Zeus would spaz out and chase him down swatting, and Tobi would run from it as if... he got what he wanted in the cat chasing him down :lol:


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## bruins17 (Feb 16, 2012)

I dont know much about the benefits or the consequences of not neutering your dog, but i believe it is very unnatural to neuter a dog. They have them for a reason so why screw up what nature intended. I look at it the same way i do male circumsision, just wrong.


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## Love my lab (Dec 9, 2010)

well as others have said you will get varied opinions from everyone. But if you feel it is best to wait then let no one make you feel guilty for that decision. My vet wanted to spay my girl right at 6 mo. before she reached that age I changed vets and the new vet encouraged me to wait until her 1st cycle to spay because she had vaganitis that vet 1 never checked for and kept treating her as she had a uti...grrrr....but anyways I waited until she went through 2 heats and spayed at 18 mo. I had done alot of reading and was worried about her development. I got slack from people, but I didnt care. My dog...My choice. I will admit the heat cycle w/ my girl was not fun...21 days of bleeding both times, we used human depends and cut a hole in the but for her tail. lol. The doggie diapers lie about their sizes...bought them and they were a total waste of money. My sister in law had a dog who she spayed at age 5 and her heats were nothing but mere drips. I would guess each heat is different. Good luck. You will know in your heart what is best.


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## Itty bitty Kitty (Dec 26, 2011)

Love my lab said:


> well as others have said you will get varied opinions from everyone. But if you feel it is best to wait then let no one make you feel guilty for that decision. My vet wanted to spay my girl right at 6 mo. before she reached that age I changed vets and the new vet encouraged me to wait until her 1st cycle to spay because she had vaganitis that vet 1 never checked for and kept treating her as she had a uti...grrrr....but anyways I waited until she went through 2 heats and spayed at 18 mo. I had done alot of reading and was worried about her development. I got slack from people, but I didnt care. My dog...My choice. I will admit the heat cycle w/ my girl was not fun...21 days of bleeding both times, we used human depends and cut a hole in the but for her tail. lol. The doggie diapers lie about their sizes...bought them and they were a total waste of money. My sister in law had a dog who she spayed at age 5 and her heats were nothing but mere drips. I would guess each heat is different. Good luck. You will know in your heart what is best.


Thank you for the support and shared wisdom. I admit, I have been confused even sometimes stressed at trying to find out what the 'right' way is and what is truly best for my dog. I'm glad to conclude that you're right; to go with what I feel is right. Thank you for sharing


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## brandypup (Jan 23, 2012)

IN all honesty. If your getting the puppy from a responsible ethical breeder they will have the spay neuter information in the contract. Being a large breed dog the breeder will give you all this information ont he proper time to alter. It would be something to discuss with them while your interviewing breeders as well. 

At least this is what I am finding while researching english mastiffs. I willbe adding a puppy in the distant future and in researching the breeders they have in the contract and well as very specific discussion about when to alter and also about vaccinations so not to over vaccinate. With the males EM's minimun age to neuter (a healthy non behavioral dog) its being around 18+ months. Witht he female EM's it's after 2 yrs old. It's not about heat cycles it's about age and maturity of the larger breeds.. at least EM's. I am not sure abotu GSD.


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