# I'm so stupid...



## Nana52 (Apr 28, 2012)

I actually thought I'd found the "cure" for Kody's seizures ... absolutely no grains, low/no carbs (none since raw), recently switched to raw, no flea meds, no vaccinations, yada, yada. Stupid of me, I know, since there is no cure, but he's gone almost 7 months without one, and I couldn't help but get my hopes up. Still that's a darn site better than having them monthly. Then again, I'm asking myself if he's had more and I just didn't know. I work at home so if he has one while I'm home, he comes to me, getting as close as he can, during his postictal phase. Even if it's a night, he wakes me up. So unless he just happens to seize when I go to the grocery store on the weekend, this is the first one since December '11. 

As some of you may remember, I've been gradually, painfully slowly lowering his phenobarbital these past few months (by 1/4 pill every 30 days ... slowly like I said). He was down to 1/4 pill twice a day. Then 2 days ago, I dropped to 1/4 pill a day. I guess that was 1/4 pill too low. The seizure wasn't a bad one. I tried the "ice bag to the spine" trick, and maybe my imagination (like I imagined he was cured), but seems he snapped out of it within seconds of applying ice. 

Anyway I'm going back to 1/4 pill twice a day, hope I haven't triggered a series of seizures, and looking for other alternatives. I've been reading about DMG being helpful (in some) seizure dogs. Does anyone here have any experience with that? There are some herbs that supposedly help, but I can't get a good bead on how to dose them separately, and don't really like the combo (especially since most are alcohol based). 

Sorry, I'm just blathering. It was sad to see this after so long. At least I've got his drug dosage down considerably, if I have screwed up and he ends up having to go back on higher dose. Frack!

Donna/Nana


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

:usa::usa::usa::usa::usa::usa:


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## Nana52 (Apr 28, 2012)

magicre said:


> you've come so far.....you really have. do not feel stupid.
> 
> sometimes, finding a level of medication is all about trial and error...and sometimes if wishing could make it so, we'd not get old and our dogs would never be sick.....
> 
> ...


Thanks so much. I'm trying not to be discouraged. We have come a long way. Even if it's not possible to get him completely off the pheno, I'm hoping for an "alternative" to use in conjunction with so that maybe the lower dose will be sufficient and a lower dose will hopefully not be so "toxic" to his liver. I'm giving him a low dose of milk thistle to help with the liver situation, but I've also read that the DMG is helpful in strengthening the liver and the immune system (and tons of other benefits if it's all the be believed). I'm not giving up. These freaking dogs are all I have!!

If IFS and BUTS were candy and nuts, we'd ALL have a Merry Christmas!


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

:usa::usa::usa::usa::usa::usa:


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## Nana52 (Apr 28, 2012)

You're right, I know. I'm still just looking at other options. Not jumping off the deep end .... yet ....


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

:usa::usa::usa::usa::usa::usa:


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## Nana52 (Apr 28, 2012)

magicre said:


> if you jump off the deep end, then who will we tease?
> 
> stop. think for a moment. this is not the same dog from a few months ago. and it won't be the same dog a few months from now.


Who indeed. Taking some deep breaths. Finding my zen. Thanks ever so. :wacko:


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## tuckersmom20 (Dec 12, 2010)

If 1/4 pill twice a day works... Stick with that.
I wouldn't go an lower because his body could go into a different seizure pattern.

I would stay at 1/4 twice a day... And add taurine. It comes in a capsule, tuck is 70 lbs and got 1000 mg once a day.
If your pup is smaller, I'd stay at 500 mg.
Taurine did make a difference for us, but our neuro wanted Tuck off all supplements so we could see how the traditional med was treating his epilepsy. 

Another thing that would be good, add in beef heart. It has high amounts of taurine.
Even if you give too much taurine, that's ok... They pee out extra.

Tucker is 8 weeks and 4 days seizure free by the way. The longest streak EVER!


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## Tobi (Mar 18, 2011)

Sounds to me like you've made leaps and bounds! Be proud of yourself, don't think less of yourself because he had an episode, think more of yourself because he didn't have one for 7 months because of your smart thinking :thumb:


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## MollyWoppy (Mar 19, 2010)

And, don't forget, most people just dose up their dogs and are done with it. They don't question what the drugs are doing to the dog's body, or if they can in fact reduce the dosage a bit. You are doing the absolute best you can for Kody and you can't ask for much more than that.
Good info from Tuckersmom there too. I know she's been through the wringer with her pup.


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## Liz (Sep 27, 2010)

Nana, you have come so far. You have nothing to feel bad about. I would stick with the quarter pill twice a day for a long while and let him really adjust. If he does great down the road as his body gets stronger and stronger you may decide to try a little lower but have done amazing. If it makes you feel better when I was working with my girl through open pyo I dropped her herbs/homeopathics the minute I thought she was better. I needed to wean her off them not dump her. I had to start treatment all over again, and to top it off I not only did this once but twice. You think I would have learned my lesson. :/

DMG - I have been researching DMG and I would try it for arthritis but I just can't find enough to substantiate it as really an answer to seizures. It might be great and just what you are looking for but the people I can talk to use it for arthritis care and I have yet to be able to find anyone using for seizures so I can verify first hand information. Everything on line is contradictory. Either it is a placebo or a g*odsend. If I find anythign substantial I will let you know. I think Kibblelady has one of her dogs on it but I don't knwo if it is for seizures or arthritis.


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## Kibblelady (Jul 13, 2012)

Nana52 said:


> Thanks so much. I'm trying not to be discouraged. We have come a long way. Even if it's not possible to get him completely off the pheno, I'm hoping for an "alternative" to use in conjunction with so that maybe the lower dose will be sufficient and a lower dose will hopefully not be so "toxic" to his liver. I'm giving him a low dose of milk thistle to help with the liver situation, but I've also read that the DMG is helpful in strengthening the liver and the immune system (and tons of other benefits if it's all the be believed). I'm not giving up. These freaking dogs are all I have!!
> 
> If IFS and BUTS were candy and nuts, we'd ALL have a Merry Christmas!



DMG is proven to help the immune system. I just dropped off a bunch of information for my vet. I cannot explain more tonight but I will tomorrow. I had just tried to start a thread on DMG, I am a big fan.


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## Kibblelady (Jul 13, 2012)

Liz said:


> DMG - I have been researching DMG and I would try it for arthritis but I just can't find enough to substantiate it as really an answer to seizures. It might be great and just what you are looking for but the people I can talk to use it for arthritis care and I have yet to be able to find anyone using for seizures so I can verify first hand information. Everything on line is contradictory. Either it is a placebo or a g*odsend. If I find anythign substantial I will let you know. I think Kibblelady has one of her dogs on it but I don't knwo if it is for seizures or arthritis.



Liz I am using it, have been for years. I use it for it's proven immune effects. With Emma having pneumonia and Tobe having Cancer they are definitely taking it. My FeLv cat Kurt takes it when I think he is "slipping" in condition to keep the Felv effects at bay, it has been working for him for 6 years  There are a number of things it is being studied for like Autism (seems to help behavior and aggressive issues?) But they are still looking at that as the results are anecdotal from caregivers. They looked at it for endurance persons but I think they found no effect on that. The immune one though has been seen over and over in peer reviewed studies (I know some look at that sideways but I don't that's why I mention them.)

If you look it up by it's chemical name Dimethylglycine you may have more luck. There is one particular paper I can find for you all tomorrow. I cannot say though I have personally seen anything in reference to seizures... This is a product in our own bodies, they are just concentrating it. I use the liquid form from Vetri-Science I get it from Natural Pets online.


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## Liz (Sep 27, 2010)

Thanks I will check some more. I like to research and then talk to people who have actually used a product. I saw the application for immune response and athletic stamina, have seen really good information on arthritis, just everything with seizures is so back and forth. I will keep researching though and hopefully find a few people who have successfully used it. I like to have options in my natural arsenal.  Thanks for the full name. I had it in a file but have been lazy of late.


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## Nana52 (Apr 28, 2012)

I simply can't thank you all enough for your kind words of encouragement. I'm going to stay with the 1/4 pill twice a day for the next long while. I have read about taurine, and it's one of the reasons I'm anxious to get beef heart into the mix, but trying to hold myself back from going to fast with the new proteins. It is, however, next on my list. I'll also look into supplementing in the meantime.

Y'all are right on the money about the DMG. The information is mostly with regards to immune system help and use in sporting animals. I've only read a handful of "user accounts" regarding help with seizures (and a couple of those were about birds), but it was one of the supplements recommended on a couple of natural health sites in discussing seizures, and was also recommended in the raw feeding book by Lew Olson. I'm still contemplating. I'm most appreciative of any other suggestions.

In the meantime, I'm halting any further attempts to reduce the pheno, keeping him (them) on the raw food diet, and doing all I can to strengthen his (their) immune system to help us do battle with whatever comes down the road.

Thank you all again. You don't know how much you've helped me these past few weeks with everything I've been trying to accomplish 

Oh, and big congrats to Tucker for his longest seizure-free streak! Awesome!


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

:usa::usa::usa::usa::usa::usa::usa:


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## Nana52 (Apr 28, 2012)

magicre said:


> i am a research addict, so of course, have spent some time looking up this supplement.
> 
> i have a healthy skepticism for a product that does so much for so many systems of the body.
> 
> ...


Your words of wisdom are astonishing! I'm going to force myself into a "holding pattern" for right now. Yes, I want it fixed NOW, but I recognize that's just not reasonable. He's doing so much better and with a little luck and patience, maybe he can do better still. Thanks so much.


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## tuckersmom20 (Dec 12, 2010)

Nana, I'm with you on wanting a fix NOW.

Seizures are such a tricky thing to get a hold of, they stop seizing for a bit and you think you've found the perfect mix, then they prove you wrong.

I think you're doing amazing.
Getting that low on pheno is amazing, pheno is a nasty drug, but at half a pill a day... I don't think the effects are huge.

Just to let you know, at 5pm tucker got his last dose of pheno, I am beyond happy.
But we are still on zoni and will stay on it. It's working.

Anyway, you have to find what works... If its 1/4 pill twice... Then it's that.
Trust me I know the hatred that we feel when we know our pups are on meds and don't want them on it.
But.... Think of this, if our pups were on nothing and had no control at all.... That would creating brain damage.
So there's a good and bad side. Being on meds prevents further damage, but being on meds taxes the body.

Cannot win. All we can do is live.


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## Brian 6 (Jul 22, 2012)

Most dogs need to have more pheno with time as their livers become better at destroying it, just like an alcoholic needs more alcohol to get drunk than when he/she started.

The fact that you have been able to lower it then is quite an accomplishment.

We had three generations of epileptic labs (long story). All but one (out of 4) eventually outgrew their seizures. Only one required pheno as he had clusters of seizures and he required it until he died at 14.


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