# We have a problem.



## SilverBeat

Up until this point I have been training Wallaby myself, using The Power of Positive Dog Training as a guide. He can sit, lie down, give kisses, high-five, shake, roll over, wait and back up like nobody's business. 

Our problem is when he gets overstimulated, he gets incredibly anxious. If he sees another dog, a squirrel, or an interesting-looking person, he whines, pulls, completely ignores me, spins in circles... he works himself into a frenzy and it takes us 15 minutes to walk past the place where the squirrel disappeared into the tree.
Today we had an interview at a great daycare that I'd like him to be able to attend at least once a week, but the trainer said that until I can get him to "snap out of it" when he is, for example, playing with another dog, that he wouldn't be able to go there. Which, I completely understand. 

So what would be a good method to desensitize him to the amazingly distracting world around him?


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## DaneMama

So what happens when you're on a walk and a dog is coming towards you or theres a squirrel in the tree up ahead? He starts to freak out...what do you do in response?


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## pandaparade

I would like to know what Natalie asked as well, cause if you start getting anxious with him, he may see it as you are anxious to see the squirrel as well. If you are telling him to stop stop stop he may think you are excited and talking about the squirrel too. If you are staying calm, which I reccomend, try sitting down on the ground and waiting till he is settled. When he has settled, treat him. Next time you take a walk practive possibly just settling with him before something unexpected happens?

ETA: My dog gets really anxious when I call the cats names. He starts pacing around and makes whining sounds. I practiced laying him down and doing a mock call of calling my cats, and once he settled down I treated him. I have just started it but I can see that now the distraction of me calling a cat is a reward for him and I think he is getting it that it's a positive thing.


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## SilverBeat

I stand still if he is pulling, and I call him to me. Sometimes he comes, most of the time he doesn't. If he comes, I have him sit and wait until the person/dog walks by. Other than that though, I ignore his whining and circling/pacing.

ETA: pandaparade - good idea, I will do that tonight before we go for our evening walk.


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## xellil

OK 90% of the people here are probably going to disagree with me, but here goes.

I also have an obsessive dog. He will smell for chipmunks in the yard for hours, until he is peeing down his leg because he won't take a bathroom break.

So.. forward to positive only training. It works great, fantastic, wonderful - I use it all the time. But remember, this originated in a dolphin pool, where the animals can't run off.

your dog knows how to do all that stuff - that's great. My dog knew all that stuff also when we did positive only training. The problem is, when there is no more food, or when something more interesting comes along - what then??? Can you depend on your dog to sit, come, stay - every single time you ask, whever you are? Can you ask him to sit, and he will, if you are separated across a busy street? 

My dog can, and does, and I'll tell you why - because I realized that like children, dogs need guidance. They need correction. Now saying this really makes me defensive, because people accuse me of being cruel to my dog without have ever seen me interact with him, or give him the said corrections. They will tell me I just don't "get it" and I am some kind of ogre for using some archaic, cruel way to work with my dog.

But I wanted to walk without a leash. I wanted to train from a distance. I wanted him to be safe, ALWAYS, and not have to worry about him getting run over, or running off.

I also wanted to be able to stop him from his terrible obsessions, which was really awful to watch. I wanted to be able to say "look at me, pay attention to me - I can help" but with positive-only, there is no way I could do that.

So my suggestion is this - there are all kinds of trainers. I think I have been to them all. And yes - some DO use force and intimidation on a dog. you don't want that. you want to find one that uses many rewards, praise, and corrections in an appropriate manner. Find the right kind - with my current dog we went to classes with 5 different trainers before we found the right one for us.

Postive-only is great for parlor tricks. But do I want my dog to be able to put his feet on a telephone book, or do I want him to not run out in front of a truck on a busy road?


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## xellil

I tried the settling thing also. Sitting with him calmly in the yard, giving treats etc. Over and over again, for up to four hours at a time. He finally outwaited me. 

Also in the streets in our neighborhood. however the calmness thing is VERY important. for many months, before we headed out on a walk I would stand and close my eyes and go OHM OHM OHM until I didn't feel nervous any more. Dogs approaching - big breath, OHM OHM OHM. Lots of big breaths, lots of OHMS. 

I am normaly not nervous any more, but the dog does feel that through the leash. I can tell when I am getting upset, it is reflected in my dog's behavior.


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## pandaparade

xellil said:


> But I wanted to walk without a leash. I wanted to train from a distance. I wanted him to be safe, ALWAYS, and not have to worry about him getting run over, or running off.
> 
> I also wanted to be able to stop him from his terrible obsessions, which was really awful to watch. I wanted to be able to say "look at me, pay attention to me - I can help" but with positive-only, there is no way I could do that.


This can all be done through positive reinforcement. I do not see why you think that it can't. Could you please justify this? Positive reinforcement does not always consist of a ton of cookies in pockets at all times. What kind of corrections are you talking about? How do you correct your dog?

Check this video out for a purely positive trained dog listening to every word she says without treats.







xellil said:


> Postive-only is great for parlor tricks. But do I want my dog to be able to put his feet on a telephone book, or do I want him to not run out in front of a truck on a busy road?


A dog can be taught anything with positive reinforcement. It is not simply just for cute tricks. My dog can put his feet on a telephone book AND not run in front of a truck on a busy road. It can be done. Your dog can listen to you. If your dog outwaits you and just gives up or stops, then you are probably over working him.


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## xellil

See - what I said. 

Corrections can take many forms. Mostly I use AH-AH. Sometimes, I move with my hand. Never give a command twice (it drives me crazy to hear people say sit sit sit sit SIT). Never give a command you can't enforce. Start close so you have physical control. Lots of treats.

i have seen dogs "highly" trained with positive only. The first "expert" we went to had a dog who would bite you in the crotch if you didn't throw it's rope. No corrections at all for that. believe me, that dog had me trained - I was tossing that rope like crazy.

When we are with other dogs, I am usually the only one who is constantly praising - so don't tell me I am cruel to my dog, until you see us together.


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## pandaparade

I never called you cruel. I am not trying to argue with you. I just didn't understand why you thought that positive reinforcement only works with tricks and only if you have treats.


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## xellil

Like I say, I am defensive about this. I have been called lots of things because I don't ascribe to all positive.

In fact, the only reason I post here is because of the obsessive thing. I think other than fear, obsession is very difficult to stop. In fact, I believe it is impossible to stop using a reward-only system. believe me, i tried - we went to all-positive for 6 months, had private lessons, two different trainers, read all the books, yadda yadda yadda. I think if it was possible, we would have succeeded.

I don't know alot of dogs like mine. I am 53 years old and never met a dog like mine. He lived in a backyard for at least two years without any kind of human companionship or connection at all, and maybe that's it. 

I also know one woman who was just horrible to me about this, until her dog died and she adopted a dog with alot of issues. Now, she is using various methods to make both her and her dog happy.

i just want folks to know - if all-positive doesn't work for you, there are good, humane, alternatives. you just have to find the right trainer. There are many, many bad trainers. 

Oh, and never go to Pet Smart.


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## xellil

oh, by the way, we do all-reward with my dachsund. It works great.


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## xellil

pandaparade said:


> A dog can be taught anything with positive reinforcement. It is not simply just for cute tricks. My dog can put his feet on a telephone book AND not run in front of a truck on a busy road. It can be done. Your dog can listen to you. If your dog outwaits you and just gives up or stops, then you are probably over working him.


Normally, we work for 1/2 hour intervals once or twice daily. When I say outwaits, I mean - he sees something. He wants to obsess on it. I don't want him to obsess on it. We sit, we wait. He tries to do the milatary crawl away from me. We sit some more. He fools me by acting like he's forgotten. I let him go. he immediately goes back to the obsession. We sit some more. For hours, this goes on. Even if i take him inside, and let him out an hour later - back to the exact same thing.

he has torn the gutter off the house, thrashing the inside of his mouth, to get to a chipmunk. he will run the fence for hours, sniffing, sniffing, not stopping to eat, to pee, not responding to food, avoiding being touched or reeled in or distracted in any way.

Positive reinforcement doesn't work on something like this - it just doesn't. And inside, he is miserable when he is doing it. This doesn't make a happy dog.

And you got me with the first sentence in that video - I don't use physical or psycological intimidation. There is a difference between correction and intimidation. My dog isn't intimidated by me. 

Stuff like that is what makes me defensive. But, it's a great video and I would definitely try it. I don't NOT believe in it - I just don't believe it works on every dog. And people who can't do it with their dogs shouldn't be made to feel like they are being cruel.


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## DaneMama

Xellil- First off, no one here is even allowed to call you names or bash you for your opinions. Its just not allowed, so don't you worry. What people will do is question you to try and better understand your reasoning. Second, try not to be so defensive. I don't believe pandaparade was trying to pick on you but ask you a logical question: What correction methods do you use? 

Silverbeat: I would not only stand still, but turn around and deliberately walk away fast with your nose in the air, without saying a word, from whatever it is that he is obsessing over. That way he knows that you are the one in control of his environment. You allow him to see/chase squirrels or not (chasing squirrels could be the ULTIMATE reward for your dog!). This is essentially a real world application of "it's YER choice" meaning if your dog sees a squirrel but turns and looks at you for approval, the best reward would be to let him chase it. If he just charged at the squirrel without paying you any attention then march off in the opposite direction. As soon as he's calm, go back the same direction towards whatever was getting his attention. I also say that it's "three strikes and you're out!" meaning if he repeats his obsessive pulling three times, the third time is when you turn right back around and go home. I see way to often people being dragged by their dog's to the park, and then those dogs go off to play...success by pulling and the ultimate reward of play time at the park. 

How are his loose leash walking skills with you? How often does he check in without you asking for attention? Checking in means he turns and looks at you.


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## xellil

I realize I am too defensive. I also realize I really can't talk about this without getting shrill, and I apologize. I have been attacked on all sides, by so many people, I start out that way.

I just want to point out, politely - that if you have exhausted the all-reward method, there are ways that are reward/correction based combined that don't hurt your dog, either physically or mentally. I hate to see people struggle with the behavior of their dogs. It makes for such stress and strain on both.

Frankly, i don't see many people who have dogs that are trained, period, to come when called, or sit when asked. Or to go on a pleasant walk that's not a tug of war on both sides.

the way you talk about to teach a dog to leave a squirrel is not what I would consider a positive-only method. There is a negative consequence for forging forward without permission. this is one way I teach my dog - if he doesn't get permission, or isn't paying attention to me, we do something like go the other way or sit down for a while as a correction. It works great, if the dog is on a leash. 


dogs don't interact with each other on all-reward. There are threads on here about how dogs correct each other and teach young ones to behave. If we talk about feeding the way nature intended, I think it makes the same sense to follow nature in other ways.


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## SilverBeat

DaneMama said:


> Xellil- First off, no one here is even allowed to call you names or bash you for your opinions. Its just not allowed, so don't you worry. What people will do is question you to try and better understand your reasoning. Second, try not to be so defensive. I don't believe pandaparade was trying to pick on you but ask you a logical question: What correction methods do you use?
> 
> Silverbeat: I would not only stand still, but turn around and deliberately walk away fast with your nose in the air, without saying a word, from whatever it is that he is obsessing over. That way he knows that you are the one in control of his environment. You allow him to see/chase squirrels or not (chasing squirrels could be the ULTIMATE reward for your dog!). This is essentially a real world application of "it's YER choice" meaning if your dog sees a squirrel but turns and looks at you for approval, the best reward would be to let him chase it. If he just charged at the squirrel without paying you any attention then march off in the opposite direction. As soon as he's calm, go back the same direction towards whatever was getting his attention. I also say that it's "three strikes and you're out!" meaning if he repeats his obsessive pulling three times, the third time is when you turn right back around and go home. I see way to often people being dragged by their dog's to the park, and then those dogs go off to play...success by pulling and the ultimate reward of play time at the park.
> 
> How are his loose leash walking skills with you? How often does he check in without you asking for attention? Checking in means he turns and looks at you.


Most every time I walk him he is on a retractable leash. When he sees a squirrel, say, on someone's lawn or in their yard, his hears go up and he runs immediately towards it, until he hits the end of the leash. These are the ONLY times he pulls when on the leash. Otherwise he is very good about keeping the leash loose. 
IF he sees a squirrel going across the road, or headed that way, I am very proud to say that he looks to me first, then back at the squirrel, but he doesn't go after it. He does whine and make a fuss, but that's it. Same with a dog on the other side of the road. 

The only times he checks in with me are infrequently when we are walking, and often if he sees another dog or person he wants to meet he will look at me. He doesn't take the advice I give him, but he does look to me first and that's a start at least.

Also I really like the idea of walking in another direction, and the three strikes rule. Thank you!


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## DaneMama

Xellil- I never said that the dog would be allowed to chase the squirrel just whenever, but ONLY when his owner says it's ok and after he's done what is expected of him: staying calm and paying attention to his owner. Only then should he be allowed to possibly chase the squirrel. Chasing squirrels is highly positive for the dog, they simply love to do it. There are extreme cases like yours when it becomes an obsession, but that isn't whats going on here. This case is just a simple one of mild leash reactivity and over excitement. 

Silverbeat- what I suggest you do is start on square one with your dog when it comes to loose leash walking. Practice in a really quiet area like a deserted tennis court or parking lot. Walk in a large circle or rectangle and have treats at the ready. Get a flat leash, for now put the retractable away, and only give him maybe two feet of it (you don't want to give him a lot of room for error). Start off by giving him a treat with every other step while waking (don't stop with each treat) which is a very high rate of reinforcement. You want to establish the area right around you as being the coolest place to be. Do this several times a day for a few weeks or until he is consistently walking by your side with ease. Then move on to only reinforcing when your dog looks at you (checks in), IMMEDIATELY give him 5 treats all in a row (not as a handful but one right after the other) and praise. You want your dog to check in with you constantly on his own free will without you having to ask for it. Eventually he will learn that you are what he should focus on. 

You'll want to up the stakes gradually so that he generalizes the need to check in with you in all contexts, even when there are other dog's and squirrels running about. Don't jump right into a scenario where you're pretty sure he will fail and revert to previous bad behavior. Always end a session on a high note, don't wait until you are both tired and frustrated- usually a half hour or less for most dogs.


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## Montana

Something I am working on with Montana is not rushing up to dogs or people to greet them, which if she does will prevent her from passing her CGN or TDI.

Something I've learned in training is how to create a 'leave it' or 'ignore', without having to use a cue. We started off walking in a straight line with our dogs, then at some point tossing a tasty treat on the ground beside them as we were walking. Obviously they would go for the treat, but without yanking or pulling them away, we would continue to walk on. As SOON as their attention was off the treat on the ground and weren't trying to pull towards it, we marker word (YES!) and lots of yummy treats.

The second exercise was the same concept, but we would place a treat at one end of the room, and walk towards it. As soon as the dog starts to pull or try and get the treat on the ground, turn around and walk backwards (facing your dog) in the opposite direction. When they stop paying attention to the treat, YES (or clicker if you use one) and treat! By a few runs, all the dogs understood walking up to the treat on the ground doesn't mean you go for it, and we could walk right up with no pulling or obsession.

You can try this tactic with the distractions you're having problems with. As soon as your pup sees something that causes his unwanted reaction, walk away backwards, then YES! or click when he stops obsessing, and stuff his face full of yummies. This ideally should create "thing that usually makes me pull and get over exciting because I don't know what else to do" to "OMD a squirrel! Oh right... I get delicious thing in my mouth when I ignore it!"

Every dog is different, this method worked really well for my dog, might not always for every dog, but you can give it a shot!


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## xellil

i think the absolute best thing that happened to my dog was being around a bunch of other dogs - I can't even really describe the reaction he had when he saw another dog - some kind of screaming, spinning, frothing maniac took over my dog's body. And this was wherever - walking, in a car, from the window in the house.

I just immersed him in dogs - mostly dog class, where there were 80 other dogs. You can't react like that to every single dog when there are so many. Then we graduated to walking in the neighborhood, and then in the park. We also didn't just walk - we did stuff while we walked, to keep his attention focused on me.

we still have some of that from inside our house, but it never happens in the car, walking, at the dog park etc. at all now. 

I thought I had a really aggressive dog - as it turned out, he is extremely good with other dogs. he just didn't know what to do when he saw one.

That was what I thought might stop him from getting his good canine certificate - but he passed it with flying colors. In fact, out of the 10 dogs that took the test at the same time, 7 failed. But most of them failed because they displayed anxiety when the owner left the room.


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## DaneMama

Montana said:


> Something I am working on with Montana is not rushing up to dogs or people to greet them, which if she does will prevent her from passing her CGN or TDI.
> 
> Something I've learned in training is how to create a 'leave it' or 'ignore', without having to use a cue. We started off walking in a straight line with our dogs, then at some point tossing a tasty treat on the ground beside them as we were walking. Obviously they would go for the treat, but without yanking or pulling them away, we would continue to walk on. As SOON as their attention was off the treat on the ground and weren't trying to pull towards it, we marker word (YES!) and lots of yummy treats.
> 
> The second exercise was the same concept, but we would place a treat at one end of the room, and walk towards it. As soon as the dog starts to pull or try and get the treat on the ground, turn around and walk backwards (facing your dog) in the opposite direction. When they stop paying attention to the treat, YES (or clicker if you use one) and treat! By a few runs, all the dogs understood walking up to the treat on the ground doesn't mean you go for it, and we could walk right up with no pulling or obsession.
> 
> You can try this tactic with the distractions you're having problems with. As soon as your pup sees something that causes his unwanted reaction, walk away backwards, then YES! or click when he stops obsessing, and stuff his face full of yummies. This ideally should create "thing that usually makes me pull and get over exciting because I don't know what else to do" to "OMD a squirrel! Oh right... I get delicious thing in my mouth when I ignore it!"
> 
> Every dog is different, this method worked really well for my dog, might not always for every dog, but you can give it a shot!


Both of these scenarios fall under the category of "its YER choice" strategy. Whenever a dog has the choice between two things (the right and the wrong-paying attention to mom or going for the treat without permission, etc.) the "its YER choice" can be applied. This is why this concept is such a foundation to dog training.


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## SerenityFL

I'm going to have to try the treat on the ground thing.

Sakari, girl hoodlum, was the one who completely and totally ignored me when we were learning recall. Oh, she did GREAT when we were on leash, 6 ft, 30 ft, etc. Brilliant. Apple of my eye.

The second the leash came off? She went off. And blew me off.

I have been working hard with her....so hard with her....and the jackpot thingie that Danemama and I were talking about on another post has worked with her. Is she 100%? NO. Every so often, rarely but every so often, she likes to charge on down to see her boyfriend and pretend I don't exist.

She did this the other day, again, and I saw the owner of her boyfriend petting her. I yelled out to him, (again), "Please do not pet her. You are only rewarding her!" This time? He actually stopped petting her. That is a small step of success for me.

Do you know what happened the second he stopped petting her? She turned around and looked at me as I was walking towards her. And she came towards me. I stopped where I was, waited for her to get to me, pointed to the "tree" (where we meet), and followed her as she walked to the tree. I leashed her to the tree, gave her a pet for listening and then turned around to get Shasta, the boy hoodlum.

Now, he used to be GREAT when doing recall. All I had to do was turn the other direction and walk away from him and he would panic and think I was leaving him. ZIP! Right by my side again. Now? HA! Now he thinks he doesn't have to listen to me at all. I use the jackpot on him as well but it doesn't work in recall on him anymore. He completely and totally blows me off and says, "You never do anything to me when I run off so I'll just go ahead and run off. How you like them apples?" 

When he sees another dog, human or animal, I do not exist. This has changed. Used to be he would listen or at the very least, look at me.

I can walk in a giant circle around the free run area and Sakari will stay right behind me, at my heels, looking up at me the entire time because she knows, "huzzah! jackpot treats are comin'!" Shasta refuses to walk behind me EVER, and if he sees something else, he is a dog on his own, making his own way in the world and he's going to do whatever he wishes to do and right now what he wants to do is chase that bird, greet that dog or bolt on over to that human.

Obsessed? Yah, he gets obsessed. He simply does not listen to me anymore if he sees something else. I have no idea why all of a sudden he isn't listening. I do the same thing, I change up the treats between hearts and gizzards, he loves those, I give him the jackpot when he does what I want without any need to correct at any time but he's now changed his mind about listening to me---like I've lost my importance to him--I'm not as appealing as I used to be. (Gee, thanks dog.)

So maybe this treat on the ground thing will work. I don't know. He can be stubborn...and he would probably also outwait for me for hours.

It's so weird that they totally and completely switched roles. I do not get it at all.


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## Maxy24

For the recall in your above post, I would put a long leash back on him. He lost the privilege of being off leash by ignoring you, so he needs to be leashed. That way you can enforce the command by reeling him in when he ignores you. Every time he is able to ignore the command, the command becomes weaker, it means nothing. Meanwhile work on recall off leash in an area that is less distracting. Always remember to recall frequently and release the dog. If every time or most of the time you call him it is to take him home or inside then it's pretty logical that he would ignore the command so that he can continue with the fun stuff. Coming to you, getting a treat, and then being released right back to what he was doing makes coming seem like far less of a hassle/punishment for him.


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## SerenityFL

Maxy24 said:


> For the recall in your above post, I would put a long leash back on him. He lost the privilege of being off leash by ignoring you, so he needs to be leashed. That way you can enforce the command by reeling him in when he ignores you. Every time he is able to ignore the command, the command becomes weaker, it means nothing. Meanwhile work on recall off leash in an area that is less distracting. Always remember to recall frequently and release the dog. If every time or most of the time you call him it is to take him home or inside then it's pretty logical that he would ignore the command so that he can continue with the fun stuff. Coming to you, getting a treat, and then being released right back to what he was doing makes coming seem like far less of a hassle/punishment for him.


We are limited where we can go and where I take them typically has the least distractions. It's just that one guy lives all the way at the end of this football field length, (or more), of grassy area where they can run. And he has a dog. And sometimes they like to run down there and part of the reason for that is despite how many times I've asked this guy NOT to pet them, just ignore them, he doesn't and sometimes he gives them treats...fricken milk bones which ticks me off to no end....

Anyway, what happens is that after work, I take them out, we walk to the strip of grass outside my house, they pee. (They are on leash.) We walk to the "off leash" area, as I call it. I used to have them off leash from the time we walked out of the house and they did well for awhile but then they started not listening to me so they went back on leash and we now walk on leash to that area...so yah, like you said, they have lost some privileges along the way...we get to the off leash area and we position ourselves at "the tree". This is where we meet. This is where their leashes are left, their water is left and this is where they know to go when they are tired and don't want to run anymore. I worked hard on getting them to know, "the tree" as the final meeting place no matter what.

When we get to "the tree", I make them sit. I pull off Sakari's leash first and let her run to conduct her further business while I hold Shasta back. (Otherwise he'll chase her around and not let her poo.) When she's done, I let Shasta off.

I allow them to run and chase each other and burn that dang puppy energy off! When they are doing this, I don't try to recall much...it's their time to play and burn off the energy and run around like morons. And they do.

I then call them back over and we rest in the shade for a couple of minutes. There is a chair that someone placed under the tree so I sit in the chair, they lie on the ground and we rest. They do pretty darn good just staying there even if someone comes by...mostly because they are too tired to do anything about it.

Then we do a little bit of training. This is when I walk in big circles and Sakari is right at my heels, following me, obediently, looking up at me. Her focus is totally and completely on me and I just love her to death for it.

Shasta still wants to walk ahead and sniff around and chase things or roll around in whatever the hell it is he is rolling around in, usually something disgusting...and while he may stop every so often to look back, he will not walk behind me. Even when I've tried training on leash to walk behind me, Sakari gets it and her leash is slack, Shasta....sigh....I turn around, walk the other way, I clicker, I mark when he looks at me, I tell him, "GOOD!" when he loosens the slack when I tell him, 'back' (that's my command), but he always wants to forge ahead like a fricken sled dog and I said, "mush".

The times we get in to trouble are in the very beginning when I let them off. Sometimes Sakari starts running towards her poo area and then turns and runs to see her boyfriend. Sometimes it's when they are chasing each other....

Sometimes when they are running around and another person comes by, (almost everyone by now knows that if my dog runs up to them like that, they are to ignore the dog...took a long time to get them on board and that one guy at the very end, where Sakari's boyfriend lives, just thinks the whole thing is hilarious and doesn't listen....the other day was the very first time in 8-9 months that he stopped petting them when I asked him to stop petting them), they will run over to the person. The person ignores them, they come back to me. Good. 

Sometimes they see a bird and take off after the bird.

Sometimes they see another dog and you can forget about it, I do not exist.

I do not mind if they meet and greet, that's not a problem...I just don't want them hurtling towards that dog or person if I am trying to call them back. Maybe I'm doing this all wrong and I'm expecting too much. Maybe I'm misinterpreting what some people say when they say that every single time they call their dog, their dog stops and listens to them. They say that despite distractions, their dog will stop chasing what it's chasing and come back to them. Maybe I have read that wrong because mine? No, they don't do that. If it's just us, no other people, no other dogs, they tend to listen. 

When they are chasing each other around, I don't expect a whole lot but there are times these fools will run in to the Everglades, meaning, at the other end you are in the river of grass and right now, it's dry so they have taken to running out there and they fricken know better. That is where they will become alligator food. They know I'm serious and I'm sorry, you all can be disgusted with me all you want but if they run out there? I'm not nice about it. I most certainly do yell at them, "HEY!! GET OUT OF THERE!" because there are alligators there and I don't have time to be all nicey nice about it. They know it's their boundary, they aren't supposed to run past that but they get locked on and ignore me until I yell at them. Then they come out of there but I don't want to have to yell at them. I want to be able to say, when I see them head in that direction, chasing or not, "Ah!!! Come back" that they come back.

It's not that they don't know what the boundaries are, it's not that they don't know what I want...it's that they don't feel like listening anymore. And yes, you are right, it's because I can't do squat to them for running off because if they come back to me, I have to reward them. Where's the punishment for running off in the first place? So of course they aren't going to take that seriously. I'm figuring they see it like this:

Yah, let's run. Yay, let's run over there. And then there and there....oh, she's calling us...meh, whatevs man, I'll do what I want and eventually I'll come back and she'll still give me a treat anyway.

Right, cause you have to reward them for coming back. How do you "punish" (for lack of a better word), for them running off in the first place? How do you let them know, "That was not acceptable?" if you can't say diddly when they listen and come back?

I hardly ever have to call them over to go home. Recall is mostly used while they are out and off leash exercising. They "tell me" when they are ready...don't misinterpret that. What I mean is, I'll let them get exercise until they have flopped under the tree, tongues hanging out, panting heavily...they know to go to the tree. They take themselves there, like I have trained them to do. When they are in that condition, we rest a bit, I put their leashes on and then we walk one or two maybe even three times more around the area because I do not want them to associate, "If I go to the tree, that means I have to go home." That's not what is happening. The tree is a meeting place. It's where we start, where we finish and any time in between that I tell them to go there.

Anyway, I guess I'll have to put him back on the long line. And I still think I'll try that treat on the ground thing, mixed in with it. See how that works.


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## xellil

My opinion - don't let them off leash -- at all -- when they choose to ignore you.

Being off leash isn't a right - it's a privilege. And no, you can't have a consequence for returning to you, even if they've been misbehaving for half and hour and ignoring you. 

what I did with my dog was get a long line - 50 feet. he could run, but he couldn't hide


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## KittyKat

xellil said:


> My opinion - don't let them off leash -- at all -- when they choose to ignore you.
> 
> Being off leash isn't a right - it's a privilege. And no, you can't have a consequence for returning to you, even if they've been misbehaving for half and hour and ignoring you.
> 
> what I did with my dog was get a long line - 50 feet. he could run, but he couldn't hide


I agree with this. I use a long line on my dog (i think it's about 15 ft - it would be longer but trees are a pain in the ass with a long line) when I take her to a new area (she's still in training) because she needs to know the long arm of the law is not far behind her. If I call and she doesn't immediately respond, I pop the leash and bam she snaps out of her sniffing and comes back to me. I say good girl, and still show excitement as she's running back... but she only gets treats when she automatically responds.

Without the long line you don't have anything to correct your dog, and so all you can do is go to them, which is more fun for them. If that happens, the leash goes right back on and more training ensues.


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## SerenityFL

Just took them out, individually. I wasn't going to do that but Sakari decided she didn't need to listen when we got to the strip of grass right outside to pee. She decided to watch everyone who was either walking by or talking. So, back in to the house she went and it was just Shasta and me. 

Without her around? He does everything exactly like I want. In fact, he does it so perfect that people watching would applaud. I throw the stick, he gets it, he runs back, places it at my feet and sits. Perfect. I tell him to sit, stay, I walk off, he sits and stays, I turn around, call him, he comes, barreling over and just as he gets to me, slams on the brakes, sits at my feet and gets his treat. Perfect.

I brought him home and took her out to try again. Wouldn't you know, suddenly she knows how to pee. Took her to the off leash area. Had her finish the business, she got done, came charging over, slammed on the brakes, sat at my feet, treat.

We walked in circles, I told her "left", she turned left and as soon as we crossed the dirt path, we stopped, she sat at my feet, treat. She then walked either right behind me or right alongside, looking up at me the entire time. At one point she got a little ahead but as she got one foot ahead of me, she jerked herself back and came in line with me. Jackpot treats.

So, alone, individually? Brilliant. Make me look like a fricken expert.

Together? Mayhem and foolishness.

Maybe I should start him off with the treat on the ground thing as the distraction and work him up to having Sakari out with him? What do you think?


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## xellil

If I have the choice, I will always go with what makes me look the most brilliant 

Last year I had two dogs - both over 100 pounds, one mostly trained and one foolish youngster who would get distracted at a leaf blowing. I ended up taking them out separately, because both were getting the short end of the stick if I took them out together.

I never mastered being able to handle two at once.


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## RawFedDogs

You are pushing them faster than they are capable of. I like one at a time. It's almost impossible to train 2 dogs together at the same time, particularly with distractions. Get each dog behaving the way you want them to individually THEN try both the same at first with very simple stuff. Don't take both close to the gator place until the are both behaving perfectly all the time regardless of distractions. If you go close to the gator place make sure you have a long line so you can control them. NOTE: Handling 2 dogs on long lines is another almost impossible task.

The secret is to keep every thing very simple in the beginning and add stuff as they get real good with what you are working on. Sounds like you are trying to go full bore from the beginning. Take baby steps.


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## luvMyBRT

I've always liked this saying and repeat it to myself often: "The slower you go, the faster you'll get there." :biggrin:


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## SilverBeat

What an awesome thread this has turned into! 

Wanted to let you guys know we have made progress by leaps and bounds!

I am still using the retractable leash but I marked it at 3ft, 6ft, and 10ft [it is 16ft] and locking it at one of those numbers whenever I use it. I hope that makes as much sense as it did in my head. Anyways.
I did the turning around thing whenever he pulled today. And he got it pretty quick although obviously it's not perfect, he's improving. 
Around noonish I took him outside for a quick potty before I left for work. And we saw a squirrel. He saw it, and then I saw it. He froze, ears forward, totally focused on the squirrel. I called him over to me in an enthusiastic, but expectant, tone. And he came! Running! And sat! Like a fricken genius! He got tons of praise and treats for that. So Natalie I did what you suggested, I let him chase the squirrel [unlocked his leash and said "let's go!" and ran with him]. And he loved it.

On a side note, I think Wallaby has a serious issue with grain because I gave him little tidbit treats when we were training the past couple of days, that had grain in them, and his poop has been seriously disgusting. We're talking yellowy liquid poop, waking me up in the middle of the night because he can't hold it in kind of stuff.
It reminds me of how he used to be at the rescue... just going and going and going. 

I have decided to do less edible treats and more life-reward kind of stuff, because it seems like that is a better motivator for him sometimes. Unless the treat is hot dog. Seriously he will slap his own grandmother if it means he'll get even a sliver of hot dog.


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## SerenityFL

DaneMama said:


> Practice in a really quiet area like a deserted tennis court or parking lot. Walk in a large circle or rectangle and have treats at the ready. Get a flat leash, for now put the retractable away, and only give him maybe two feet of it (you don't want to give him a lot of room for error). Start off by giving him a treat with every other step while waking (don't stop with each treat) which is a very high rate of reinforcement. You want to establish the area right around you as being the coolest place to be. Do this several times a day for a few weeks or until he is consistently walking by your side with ease. Then move on to only reinforcing when your dog looks at you (checks in), IMMEDIATELY give him 5 treats all in a row (not as a handful but one right after the other) and praise. You want your dog to check in with you constantly on his own free will without you having to ask for it. Eventually he will learn that you are what he should focus on.
> 
> You'll want to up the stakes gradually so that he generalizes the need to check in with you in all contexts, even when there are other dog's and squirrels running about. Don't jump right into a scenario where you're pretty sure he will fail and revert to previous bad behavior. Always end a session on a high note, don't wait until you are both tired and frustrated- usually a half hour or less for most dogs.


Ok, I am totally going to do this with Shasta because nothing else I have tried gets him to focus on me. He focuses on other people, dogs, bugs, leaves, the wind blowing....sigh. So glad I stocked up on chicken hearts for treats....

RawFedDogs: I'm still learning as I go and I can sometimes take things too literally. When I started out, I was doing things with them individually, walking them seperate, training them seperate, off leash time was seperate and things progressed well. Sure, it took some work but when they are with me alone, they do very well. VERY well. Sakari, she was the hardest to get on board but once she got on board, she is a total gem in the off leash area. Shasta, if by himself with me, will always come back to me when I call because he does not have Sakari around to chase and ignore me. 

I believe that the only reason they are going in to the gator area is because Shasta chases Sakari and she went in there, accidentally, because it is very dry this year, didn't get her feet wet, (that is usually a good warning for them to get out), and in they went. I have taught and taught and taught them that is their boundary. 'You do NOT go past this spot right here' and with me and me alone, they listen. When they get in to chasing each other, everything goes out the window. So, for safety sake, they are going back to individual anyway.

What I mean by taking things too literally is that, like I said, I was taking them out individually to train and help build our bond. I was told that they should get time together. Well, to be honest, that didn't happen until I saw how they acted with me, alone. Like I said, alone? Brilliantly perfect and do everything I ask. Together? "Who are you, lady, and what do you want from us?"

So maybe the distraction of them together is too much for each other. Maybe I should be working on smaller distractions first and THEN building up to them being together, running around. Again, it's in the initial release when they have all that pent up energy from being inside all day while I'm at work that they don't listen and act like fools. Once they've burned some of that off, they are more inclined to listen...although, again, Shasta has NEVER walked behind me or alongside me. 

So, I'm going to do what Danemama said above....get him to realize that being next to me is the best place in the world. It worked great on Sakari...she now realizes that and she looks at me ALL the time now because in the beginning, every single time she would stop and look at me, I'd mark it with "YES!", she came running over and she got a treat. Got to the point that she didn't want to walk ahead, she wanted to walk right next to me and stare at me the entire time because hey, looking at me meant treats. It's actually hilarious when I think about it..."If I look at her, she'll give me treats! I'll just look at her constantly then! Constant treats!" 

But with Shasta, he'll go on up ahead. He'll stop and he'll look to see where we are and when he sees Sakari getting treats for being right next to me, he'll come back over but once he gets the treat, off he goes again. Then he looks back, sees she's getting a treat, he comes back, repeat, repeat, repeat. I want him to stay next to me so we'll start off with on leash and the treat thing.

Then I'm seriously going to use that treat on the ground thing as a first distraction. No matter what else is there, you stick with me, look at me, focus on me, you're getting a treat. You can have one treat on the ground or several from me by staying here and focusing on me. That sounds like it might work.

And Siverbeat reporting success makes me want to try this even more.


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## SilverBeat

I also wanted to say that another thing I did with him tonight on our walk is I called him over to me randomly, and he came about 90% of the time, got praise and treats... this helped to keep him focused on me, even though he wasn't walking right next to me or glancing at me every ten seconds, I could see it in his subconscious... it's really starting to sink in. I know what I'm going for is for him to be constantly checking in with me unprovoked, but is this a good way to reinforce it at the beginning? I noticed he was checking in with me a lot more as the walk progressed, and I rewarded that when I saw it.


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## SerenityFL

SilverBeat said:


> I also wanted to say that another thing I did with him tonight on our walk is I called him over to me randomly, and he came about 90% of the time, got praise and treats... this helped to keep him focused on me, even though he wasn't walking right next to me or glancing at me every ten seconds, I could see it in his subconscious... it's really starting to sink in. I know what I'm going for is for him to be constantly checking in with me unprovoked, but is this a good way to reinforce it at the beginning? I noticed he was checking in with me a lot more as the walk progressed, and I rewarded that when I saw it.


That's what I did with Sakari, would call her randomly. We would be walking along and out of the blue, I'd call her, get her attention and she'd get the treat. Like you said, it started to sink in and now she stares at me constantly.

Just have to work harder and slower with Shasta...cause he's kind of thick. =)


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## doggiedad

find a trainer. it doesn't seem like what you're
doing is working.

i would work the dog in sessions. each sessions would last
5 to 10 minutes. i would train at the dog park. there's plenty
of room to train but the other dogs don't have to come in contact
with your dog. i would also have training sessions at my home.
invite people over to visit with and without their dogs.
i called on family, friends and neighbors to help with my training.
i trained in front of the supermarket (near the doors), the dog park (in the parking
lot away from the dogs, along the outside of the fenced in area,) the 24 hour store (
people are always there, anytime), train indoors, outside. before the pup came home
i got up at 5:30 am to prepare for work. when the pup came home i got up at 4:00 am so
i could get in some training before work. my GF did the same thing. make time for training
and socializing. train and socialize everyday, many times during a day.

i like training in short sessions (5 to 10 minutes) but i might have 10 sessions a day.


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## xellil

That's like my foster dog last year - we trained in Walgreen's. It was right up the street from my trainer's building.


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## SerenityFL

Wanted to update....did the treat thing with Shasta, every time he looked at me, marked it and when he came back, gave him a treat. He still charged on ahead but he started to look more often and maybe didn't go as far. I think it's starting to slowly sink in. I think a few more days of that and he'll get it. 

And then we do the treat on the ground thing....that should prove to be very interesting.


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## Mokapi

This thread is awesome...I bookmarked it actually, LOL. So much great training advice. I've gotta get a big wooden spoon and some aerosol cheese, apparently. 

If you're "being a tree" with your dog, and he refuses to come back to you, do you wait and wait and wait until he finally does? The ultimate goal is to keep him at my side and have him sit when I stop, but today we had our first training session with his new GL and it didn't go as well as I had planned. He's always been a terrible puller and today we stopped probably every 5 or so steps because he'd rush ahead and I'd have to give the leash a little tug to redirect his motion. He wouldn't come back, though- he'd just stare at everything. He doesn't bark or chase things (apart from people), but it seems like I'm the least important thing in his mind. We actually waited 7 minutes (I timed it, LOL) for him to finally decide to look up at me, and I treated him, and over the course of about two hours it finally got to a point where once every two or three stops he'd come back towards me within a minute or two, look at me, and sit. Whenever I stopped him I didn't call his name or say sit, I just waited for him to do it on his own. He's incredibly stubborn...luckily, I didn't get too many weird looks when I would stop mid-stride and stare at him for minutes at a time. 

I just found it humorous/sad that it took us almost 2 hours to do one lap through the park.


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## luvMyBRT

Mokapi said:


> This thread is awesome...I bookmarked it actually, LOL. So much great training advice. I've gotta get a big wooden spoon and some aerosol cheese, apparently.
> 
> If you're "being a tree" with your dog, and he refuses to come back to you, do you wait and wait and wait until he finally does? The ultimate goal is to keep him at my side and have him sit when I stop, but today we had our first training session with his new GL and it didn't go as well as I had planned. He's always been a terrible puller and today we stopped probably every 5 or so steps because he'd rush ahead and I'd have to give the leash a little tug to redirect his motion. He wouldn't come back, though- he'd just stare at everything. He doesn't bark or chase things (apart from people), but it seems like I'm the least important thing in his mind. We actually waited 7 minutes (I timed it, LOL) for him to finally decide to look up at me, and I treated him, and over the course of about two hours it finally got to a point where once every two or three stops he'd come back towards me within a minute or two, look at me, and sit. Whenever I stopped him I didn't call his name or say sit, I just waited for him to do it on his own. He's incredibly stubborn...luckily, I didn't get too many weird looks when I would stop mid-stride and stare at him for minutes at a time.
> 
> I just found it humorous/sad that it took us almost 2 hours to do one lap through the park.


Sounds like you did great! And I applaud you!!!! It takes a lot of patience when your starting out. I went through the same thing with Duncan and let me tell you it does get better. Keep up the good work!


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## Khan

luvMyBRT said:


> It takes a lot of patience when your starting out.


One of the girls in our training class, told me I had the patience of Job!! LOL! 
I think it took us 20 minutes just to get out of the driveway when we first started! The beauty of this exercise is that they really do "get it" pretty quickly. A couple times of going absolutely nowhere is a great motivator for them to figure out what you want from them.
Good luck!


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## SilverBeat

Mokapi said:


> This thread is awesome...I bookmarked it actually, LOL. So much great training advice. I've gotta get a big wooden spoon and some aerosol cheese, apparently.
> 
> If you're "being a tree" with your dog, and he refuses to come back to you, do you wait and wait and wait until he finally does? The ultimate goal is to keep him at my side and have him sit when I stop, but today we had our first training session with his new GL and it didn't go as well as I had planned. He's always been a terrible puller and today we stopped probably every 5 or so steps because he'd rush ahead and I'd have to give the leash a little tug to redirect his motion. He wouldn't come back, though- he'd just stare at everything. He doesn't bark or chase things (apart from people), but it seems like I'm the least important thing in his mind. We actually waited 7 minutes (I timed it, LOL) for him to finally decide to look up at me, and I treated him, and over the course of about two hours it finally got to a point where once every two or three stops he'd come back towards me within a minute or two, look at me, and sit. Whenever I stopped him I didn't call his name or say sit, I just waited for him to do it on his own. He's incredibly stubborn...luckily, I didn't get too many weird looks when I would stop mid-stride and stare at him for minutes at a time.
> 
> I just found it humorous/sad that it took us almost 2 hours to do one lap through the park.


That is what I used to do. At first I just waited and waited but most of the time he wouldn't do it on his own, and when I called him over, he came unwillingly and immediately rushed back out to whatever he was doing/looking at. So now I back up, and I tell him "Oops! Back up!" in an upbeat tone. I usually just walk backwards a few steps and he comes back to my side. If he keeps pulling and pulling, after three times we walk completely in the opposite direction, and we get to wherever we were going some other way. 
Wallaby can be stubborn too but I try not to think of it in that negative sense. If I am really frustrated I call him a nutter butter or something else stupid to make me laugh and lighten the mood.

Edit: I should add that he does know the cue Back Up to mean take a couple of steps backwards. I tell him Back Up [a placeholder for later when we work on Wait] every time I am opening a door to somewhere, or if he doesn't stop at a street corner, etc. So he knows it very well. But you can use it as a no-reward marker like that to let them know that what they're doing is not what you want them to do. Just make sure that you do mark and reward for when they [d]do[/i] give you the behavior you want, otherwise a no-reward marker means basically nothing.


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## Mokapi

@luvMyBRT- Aww, thank you! I'm glad to hear it gets better...I had fun at the park (the squirrels will argue pretty loudly with you and I was cracking up), but I'd like to be able to lap it a few times over the course of 2 hours eventually! 

@Khan- I could barely walk Chip without being dragged (and he's 11 lbs...) when he had on his regular harness, AKA up until yesterday. I hadn't planned on getting him any sort of head collar, but the petite size, which fits him pretty much perfectly, was on clearance for 9.99 and the other sizes were all 19.99. I put it on him in the store and he immediately ran ahead and then simultaneously immediately wished he hadn't- I barely tugged on the leash and he whipped his body all the way around and gave me saucer eyes. I'm hoping once he gets more used to it he'll focus more on how much he wants to walk (and therefore how annoying it is when I refuse to go anywhere when he pulls ahead) and less on scratching his face on trees and grass, LOL. To give him credit, though, he only really gives getting it off an effort when we're standing still and he's bored. 

@SilverBeat- I'll try that tomorrow! My happy voice gets him super excited though so I usually have to speak fairly monotone. And nutter butter...LMAO. I just call Chip lil' stinker. He knows his nickname and will crane his head around and grin at me whenever I say it.


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## Maxy24

I decided to do backing up instead of standing still when I was working with a dog who pulled. If I stopped moving she'd just sit at the end of the leash and wait. So When she was getting near the end of the leash I'd say "Slow" and once she hit the end I'd start walking backwards. This would make her turn around and walk towards me. Once she reached my side I'd walk forwards again. This dog's pulling wasn't really bad, I didn't reward with treats in this case, just did the backing up. She soon learned that when I said slow she was getting close to the end of the leash and would in fact slow down. Then she learned where the end of the leash was herself and stopped pulling.

However with a dog who really likes to pull, or one who is bigger than the dog I was working with (she was a Shih Tzu) you could just click and treat for loose leash, then back up when the leash goes tight. Because the dog has to come back to your side for you to go forward again, as soon as you start walking you have a loose leash that you can click and treat the dog for. I did THIS with my neighbor's golden. It was only one walk but by the end, if she was ahead of me, she'd start looking at my face to see if she could get the treat and if she was too far ahead she's fall back beside me and look up at me wondering if she earned one. You could tell she was figuring out what she needed to do to get the treat.


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## SilverBeat

I wanted to post an update: Wallaby has made some extraordinary progress! Tonight he walked for a full hour on a 5' leash. And almost every single time the leash got tight, he self-corrected by walking in a circle, taking a few steps back, or coming back to my side and sitting [if I was standing still, such as at a crosswalk]. The best part? I have been using almost primarily life rewards, mostly running/playing. It works SO well for him.

We have been VERY SLOWLY building up the distractions. And tonight was a very quiet night, the streets were mostly deserted [this is a college town, so it's likely due to the holiday], which I attribute most of tonight's success to. It's amazing to think just a couple of weeks ago it was like pulling teeth trying to get him to behave on a short lead. Thank you to everyone who shared their insight!


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## xellil

SilverBeat said:


> I wanted to post an update: Wallaby has made some extraordinary progress! Tonight he walked for a full hour on a 5' leash. And almost every single time the leash got tight, he self-corrected by walking in a circle, taking a few steps back, or coming back to my side and sitting [if I was standing still, such as at a crosswalk]. The best part? I have been using almost primarily life rewards, mostly running/playing. It works SO well for him.
> 
> We have been VERY SLOWLY building up the distractions. And tonight was a very quiet night, the streets were mostly deserted [this is a college town, so it's likely due to the holiday], which I attribute most of tonight's success to. It's amazing to think just a couple of weeks ago it was like pulling teeth trying to get him to behave on a short lead. Thank you to everyone who shared their insight!


When Rebel and i were learning the loose leash, a trainer told me I need to change directions all the time, to keep his attention on me and so he wouldn't anticipate where he was going next.. I felt pretty silly heading off willy nilly in all different directions and it sure took us a long time to make it around the block! I usually ended up laughing so hard I'm not sure we were actually accomplishing anything, and i swear I think he was cracking up also. 

So glad to hear Wallaby is making progress - that's really wonderful. It seems like it's all such baby steps and not really getting anywhere, and then one day you realize just how far you've come.


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## SerenityFL

SilverBeat said:


> I wanted to post an update: Wallaby has made some extraordinary progress! Tonight he walked for a full hour on a 5' leash. And almost every single time the leash got tight, he self-corrected by walking in a circle, taking a few steps back, or coming back to my side and sitting [if I was standing still, such as at a crosswalk]. The best part? I have been using almost primarily life rewards, mostly running/playing. It works SO well for him.
> 
> We have been VERY SLOWLY building up the distractions. And tonight was a very quiet night, the streets were mostly deserted [this is a college town, so it's likely due to the holiday], which I attribute most of tonight's success to. It's amazing to think just a couple of weeks ago it was like pulling teeth trying to get him to behave on a short lead. Thank you to everyone who shared their insight!


You are an inspiration. Congratulations on the progress. So glad to hear it!!

I missed the last couple of posts so I've been doing the "stand like a tree" thing and I look ridiculous, to say the least. I stand there, Shasta still pulls. And pulls. And then it slackens and I think it's gonna happen and he just pulls off in another direction. Sigh.

As far as changing direction, I was told that it was "unfair" to the dog to just up and change direction because he would get a tightening around his neck for it and I didn't tell him what I was doing.

Oy, I'm getting so confused with training anymore. Seems there are so many ways to train for the same specific exercise and I try them all and I later learn, "No, that isn't how you do it", .....it's frustrating some times and I'm sure totally confusing for my hoodlums.

I've also tried the "back" and Shasta will slow down but the second he is even with me and I say, "Good boy", he's walking in front of me again. So, what's the right thing? Do I tell him "good" because he did what I wanted or do I refrain from saying "good" because then he thinks the "trick" is over?

Silverbeat, I wanted to add, I've been doing the same as you the last couple of days...the "life treats" as you call them. Frankly, it seemed that the only reason the hoodlums were listening to me is because they saw that yellow circle, (the little "Cheerios" plastic container I hold their treats in), and know that it means treats. I want them to do what I ask even without seeing that container.

Tonight, when I took the boy out for more recall training, (we went back a step, he's on 30' lead), I did not take the treat container. Mainly because it's difficult to handle the container, clicker and leash...so, heck, let's try "life treats". As I said elsewhere, I ran backwards, I twisted, dodged, ran forward away from him, turned, everything I could think of and he followed me every single time except once where we were both caught by surprise and got a nice little jolt from the experience.

But, what I would do is keep moving, get him to focus on me, and then eventually I would stop and he would be at my feet, sitting, he got all kinds of loving. And to be quite honest with you, it seems that he enjoys that much more than the treats. He reacted so much better and he was really in to following me around to get that affection. However, this is on the 30' lead in the "off leash" area and we were training on recall.

For the walking on the leash, (which I switch to for when we head home), again the pulling. I just don't know which is the right way that will work with him.

I'm going to read your "back up" post again and try that tomorrow....since you've had such success....maybe it will work on mine. 

Again, congrats!!! So nice to see the hard work pay off, isn't it?


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## xellil

SerenityFL said:


> As far as changing direction, I was told that it was "unfair" to the dog to just up and change direction because he would get a tightening around his neck for it and I didn't tell him what I was doing.


That was kinda my problem with it too. It's really much more difficult to find a good trainer than people think. I learned fairly quickly that just because they say it, doesn't mean it works for us or that we should be comfortable doing it. But we will try almost anything once!

the other thing I learned was if a trainer's dog is running around biting people in the crotch, run like the wind.


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## CavePaws

xellil said:


> That was kinda my problem with it too. It's really much more difficult to find a good trainer than people think. I learned fairly quickly that just because they say it, doesn't mean it works for us or that we should be comfortable doing it. But we will try almost anything once!
> 
> the other thing I learned was if a trainer's dog is running around biting people in the crotch, run like the wind.


lololololololol. If the trainer is letting their dog get away with biting someone in the crotch, then perhaps you should run like the wind. My dog Indi has bitten someone on the butt - only got their pants, but still. ;___; It is so freaking embarrassing to be a dog trainer and have a dog with behavioral problems. My boss has a dog very similar to Indi, only he is a huge Malinois, he bit another agility instructor in his privates years ago. Seriously, trainers who have aggressive dogs get bad raps...But most of the time we have these aggressive dogs because no one else wants to deal with them or has the resources to do all the necessary behavioral modification.

edit: Oh, and my other dogs are pretty normal and friendly.  So, I sort of hate it when people think I'm a bad trainer because I have one dog who has "issues"...It really isn't right to let her attitude towards the world reflect on me as a trainer. :[


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## xellil

This was supposedly a highly trained shutzhund dog. As we were sitting in a semicircle doing the orientation, the dog would run up to us one by one with a rope. If we didn't throw the rope, he would reach out and nip you in the crotch. He had me well trained, i sure threw the rope.

At the orientation, there were about 20 people At the first class, there were TWO! At the third class, we were the only people still hanging in there. We didn't run like the wind with everyone else but we paid for 12 lessons and never took the fourth.

yes, our trainer often brings in dogs in training to our classes, and some of them have pretty bad issues. if all dogs were easy, we wouldn't need trainers!


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## CavePaws

Dang...Highly trained my ***. Any highly trained schutzhund dog should only bite when given permission. Sounds like that trainer didn't have her priorities very straight. I guess in that case I would definitely run like the wind!!

edit: And woah, you paid for 12 and only did four? Did you get a refund?!


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## SilverBeat

SerenityFL said:


> You are an inspiration. Congratulations on the progress. So glad to hear it!!
> 
> I missed the last couple of posts so I've been doing the "stand like a tree" thing and I look ridiculous, to say the least. I stand there, Shasta still pulls. And pulls. And then it slackens and I think it's gonna happen and he just pulls off in another direction. Sigh.
> 
> As far as changing direction, I was told that it was "unfair" to the dog to just up and change direction because he would get a tightening around his neck for it and I didn't tell him what I was doing.
> 
> Oy, I'm getting so confused with training anymore. Seems there are so many ways to train for the same specific exercise and I try them all and I later learn, "No, that isn't how you do it", .....it's frustrating some times and I'm sure totally confusing for my hoodlums.
> 
> I've also tried the "back" and Shasta will slow down but the second he is even with me and I say, "Good boy", he's walking in front of me again. So, what's the right thing? Do I tell him "good" because he did what I wanted or do I refrain from saying "good" because then he thinks the "trick" is over?
> 
> Silverbeat, I wanted to add, I've been doing the same as you the last couple of days...the "life treats" as you call them. Frankly, it seemed that the only reason the hoodlums were listening to me is because they saw that yellow circle, (the little "Cheerios" plastic container I hold their treats in), and know that it means treats. I want them to do what I ask even without seeing that container.
> 
> Tonight, when I took the boy out for more recall training, (we went back a step, he's on 30' lead), I did not take the treat container. Mainly because it's difficult to handle the container, clicker and leash...so, heck, let's try "life treats". As I said elsewhere, I ran backwards, I twisted, dodged, ran forward away from him, turned, everything I could think of and he followed me every single time except once where we were both caught by surprise and got a nice little jolt from the experience.
> 
> But, what I would do is keep moving, get him to focus on me, and then eventually I would stop and he would be at my feet, sitting, he got all kinds of loving. And to be quite honest with you, it seems that he enjoys that much more than the treats. He reacted so much better and he was really in to following me around to get that affection. However, this is on the 30' lead in the "off leash" area and we were training on recall.
> 
> For the walking on the leash, (which I switch to for when we head home), again the pulling. I just don't know which is the right way that will work with him.
> 
> I'm going to read your "back up" post again and try that tomorrow....since you've had such success....maybe it will work on mine.
> 
> Again, congrats!!! So nice to see the hard work pay off, isn't it?


Definitely try backing up if he is just being hard-headed and pulling, or standing/sitting at the end of a tight leash. Backing up is also called "penalty steps," It's kind of a punishment, since you are showing them that pulling gets them the _opposite_ of what they want. The first time I did it with Wallaby it took us a LONG time just to get out of my room, round a corner, get downstairs and outside. The key is consistency, they will learn really fast if you are consistent. After that time I only had to remind him a handful of times, and now he self-corrects if the leash gets tight.

What I did to train this is first, when the leash got tight I took a few steps back, and said, "back up!" He backed up with me, I think having the verbal cue helped. Then I started just saying "back up" and taking one or two steps back. He would either come all the way back to me, or just take a few steps back to make the leash loose, depending on the situation. As long as he was responding I was happy. Then I just started saying "back up" and standing there. By that time he was self-correcting about half of the time. Now I barely have to say anything. Every once in a while I will have to stand still if he is getting too uppity, and he'll come back and sit or stand by me.

Also if you feel like you will just be confusing him by randomly changing directions, try making little noises when you change directions. Not talking, just little noises like clearing your throat or scuffing your feet. Phase these out when you start to notice him looking at you whether or not you signal him to. That's what I did with Wallaby, because I felt the same way--like I'd just be confusing him if I just randomly changed directions, no warning. 

Sometimes, I will have him on the long leash, and I'll call him back to me, he'll trot back, turn around, and trot in the other direction. When he does this, I just stand there. I wait for him to self-correct [coming back to me and standing or sitting]. If he does, he gets a lot of praise and we continue. If he just stands there at the end of his leash, I tell him "back up!". If he does, moderate praise and move on. If he doesn't come back after that, I start walking in the other direction. Once he has caught up with me I turn and we continue. If he does it again I call him back and make the leash short, and we start from square one.

Hopefully this helps.  Good luck!

ETA: I am training Wallaby using the "Say Please" mentality, basically like NILF. The first thing he learned was Sit, and we applied it to everything. Sit before you can get attention. Sit before you get your leash put on. Sit before you play with that other dog. And so on. I used it to replace his tendency to jump on people, and we always get compliments about how "polite" he is! So I know the way he thinks: if he is confused about what I am asking of him, after trying and trying, he comes and sits by my side, or in front of me.
Instilling that way of thinking in him makes training a whole lot easier for me, because instead of a bouncy crazy nutty dog, and me about to flip my bean... After a few failed attempts he will just come and sit quietly by my side, waiting for me to ask him again or try and show him another way.


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## xellil

She kicked us out of her doggy day care, too  

Couldn't control our dog.

Yes, that was my FIRST experience with all-positive training. Or any formal training, really. We had clickers. It didn't exactly turn me off because we tried better trainers who train that way, but it sure made me wonder if dog trainers have to pass a test.


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## xellil

SilverBeat said:


> Also if you feel like you will just be confusing him by randomly changing directions, try making little noises when you change directions. Not talking, just little noises like clearing your throat or scuffing your feet. Phase these out when you start to notice him looking at you whether or not you signal him to. That's what I did with Wallaby, because I felt the same way--like I'd just be confusing him if I just randomly changed directions, no warning.


A subsequent trainer (our current one) taught us to use a cue word or make a noise, like you say, before we turned. Without doing that, not only can they hurt themselves, i think they learn not to trust you.


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## CavePaws

Well, if they are accredited then yes they have to pass a test. A CPDT-KA trainer needs at least 300 hours of hands on training with dogs, 225 of those hours must be acquired through teaching classes as the sole instructor - all of this needs to be done within the last 5 years. I can't wait to test in the fall. By then I should have wayyyyyy over 500 hours in training dogs and teaching classes combined and I didn't count the hours of the first year I began training either, who knows how many hours I put in during 2008. Any "reputable" trainer should be certified and on board with the Association of Pet Dog Trainers.


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## SerenityFL

xellil said:


> A subsequent trainer (our current one) taught us to use a cue word or make a noise, like you say, before we turned. Without doing that, not only can they hurt themselves, i think they learn not to trust you.


Yes, what you said at the end, that they can hurt themselves and learn not to trust you, it wasn't fair to the dog. Exactly what I was told. Anyway, noises...ok...we can give that a try...see how it works.



SilverBeat said:


> Definitely try backing up if he is just being hard-headed and pulling, or standing/sitting at the end of a tight leash. Backing up is also called "penalty steps," It's kind of a punishment, since you are showing them that pulling gets them the _opposite_ of what they want. The first time I did it with Wallaby it took us a LONG time just to get out of my room, round a corner, get downstairs and outside. The key is consistency, they will learn really fast if you are consistent. After that time I only had to remind him a handful of times, and now he self-corrects if the leash gets tight.


I'll have to do this at the beginning since he is so eager beaver to get outside and PLAY!! Sunshine! Fun! Interesting things! What? Why aren't we going? I really do have to work on myself with this one because even though they are out in the house while I'm at work, I can hear them, practically all the way down the street, crying their heads off as they watch me out the window, leaving. It's truly pathetic. So, I feel bad when I get home and have been taking them out, going straight across the street to the small grass strip to pee and then we go to the off leash area so they can get out and run around and burn off the energy. 

Another thing I was told is that they have to burn off some of that energy before training or they won't be able to concentrate as much...or that they concentrate better once they've burned off some energy. See? So many different ways to do things....trick is finding which is actually the right way.

Alright, tonight...we start learning how to walk on leash like a graceful hoodlum instead of like a raving lunatic.



> What I did to train this is first, when the leash got tight I took a few steps back, and said, "back up!" He backed up with me, I think having the verbal cue helped. Then I started just saying "back up" and taking one or two steps back. He would either come all the way back to me, or just take a few steps back to make the leash loose, depending on the situation. As long as he was responding I was happy. Then I just started saying "back up" and standing there. By that time he was self-correcting about half of the time. Now I barely have to say anything. Every once in a while I will have to stand still if he is getting too uppity, and he'll come back and sit or stand by me.


I think I'll stick with "back" since he does know that means slow down or come back to me. And we'll go from there. He does respond to that word so I guess it's time to take it to the next step which will be to back up a few steps.



> Also if you feel like you will just be confusing him by randomly changing directions, try making little noises when you change directions. Not talking, just little noises like clearing your throat or scuffing your feet. Phase these out when you start to notice him looking at you whether or not you signal him to. That's what I did with Wallaby, because I felt the same way--like I'd just be confusing him if I just randomly changed directions, no warning.


I actually do scuffle my feet sometimes because I get so tired of saying "back" every two feet. Anyone watching me walk this dog would witness this:

walk, walk, "back", walk, "back", walk, walk, "back" start to take a step, "back", walk, walk, walk, "back".....actually, I was also trying to reward him with "good" when he did stay at my side for the few steps he stays at my side but then he starts to slowly pull ahead....which is why I was wondering if I should tell him "good" at all. Seems like he thinks, "Ok, I went back, like she asked, she said, 'good', time to pull up ahead again, things to see, kids, things to see..."



> Sometimes, I will have him on the long leash, and I'll call him back to me, he'll trot back, turn around, and trot in the other direction. When he does this, I just stand there. I wait for him to self-correct [coming back to me and standing or sitting]. If he does, he gets a lot of praise and we continue. If he just stands there at the end of his leash, I tell him "back up!". If he does, moderate praise and move on. If he doesn't come back after that, I start walking in the other direction. Once he has caught up with me I turn and we continue. If he does it again I call him back and make the leash short, and we start from square one.


I'll keep this in mind for when I walk him on a longer lead.



> Hopefully this helps.  Good luck!
> 
> ETA: I am training Wallaby using the "Say Please" mentality, basically like NILF. The first thing he learned was Sit, and we applied it to everything. Sit before you can get attention. Sit before you get your leash put on. Sit before you play with that other dog. And so on. I used it to replace his tendency to jump on people, and we always get compliments about how "polite" he is! So I know the way he thinks: if he is confused about what I am asking of him, after trying and trying, he comes and sits by my side, or in front of me.
> Instilling that way of thinking in him makes training a whole lot easier for me, because instead of a bouncy crazy nutty dog, and me about to flip my bean... After a few failed attempts he will just come and sit quietly by my side, waiting for me to ask him again or try and show him another way.


My hoodlums were taught the same thing. It required me to train the people around me, as well because if they stoop down to pet them when they are acting like fools, what difference does it make what I want? They're getting rewarded. At long last, people are getting it, with me, mainly because the hoodlums are getting bigger and, hey, what's that? It ISN'T cute when big ol' Shasta jumps on you? It was cute as hell when he was a puppy, yes I know, but remember, when he was much smaller and I begged you to ignore him till he sat? THIS IS WHY!"

Anyway, they know that at the door, they must sit and wait until I tell them, "ok" to come outside. When we get to the off leash area, I take them to the "tree" and they must sit and wait while I pull off their leashes, (if I'm letting them off leash....some dogs not being mentioned right now, >cough Shasta cough<), and they must sit and wait until I tell them, "ok" to sprint off and fling themselves around. When ever they come to me, they must sit at my feet. Whenever they greet someone, they must sit. When ever I stop to do something, tie my shoe, talk to someone, wipe the sweat off of me, they must sit. When we get to the house, they must sit while I open the door, go up the steps and then call them to come inside. When we are inside, they must sit while I take off their leashes. So, they know the same.

Difference is, the boy doesn't bother to sit if he's confused. If he's confused, he'll just go find something else to do. It works pretty well with the girl. And, sometimes, she'll just sit and stare at me if she doesn't want to or need to go to the bathroom right that moment. I say, "hurry up", she sniffs and sniffs, makes a figure 8 in the grass, over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over....and then, sits and looks at me. 

It's so interesting to me that she was the hardest to train in the beginning. The boy did everything I wanted, everything. The only thing I had to work on with him was chewing. Her? Almost everything was a chore.

Now? Sometimes she's still a pain with going to the bathroom because she's so. dang. picky! but everything else? She does it.

Him? "Whatever, I don't have to listen to you, you don't own me, whatevah, whatevah...I do what I want."

By the way, real quick: I know he's just being a little snot and it's not because he could go off with anyone because the other day, (before the poo eating incident), I had them both out. There's a neighbor boy who loves the dogs. Sometimes he'll be in the off leash area riding his bike or just throwing rocks or sticks because he's so bored. So, when I bring the hoodlums over, if he's there, and it's time for them to run, I let him play with them. (He has to let them chase him, not him chase them because it scares the dogs when they are being chased...unless it's by me.)

Anyway, Sakari, the girl, was doing what she was supposed to do and listening to me. Shasta, the boy, decided to go on down and talk to Sakari's boyfriend. Grrrrrrr.

The neighbor kid started to run after him to get him. I stopped him, gave him the leash and while he went down to retrieve Shasta, Sakari and I hid in the bushes, out of site, on the side.

About a minute later, there goes Shasta, flying down the field, panicking, looking for me everywhere, thinking I left him. I stayed in the bushes. He got to the bend in the road, didn't see me and kind of stood there...'uh...?'

He eventually started to walk back towards the tree, looking around all the while. He finally saw me and came barreling over he was so happy to see us. 

Since then, he doesn't go where he's not supposed to go or take off from me like that. Now, if I could just get him to stop eating dog poo and stop pulling on the leash when walking, he'd be the perfect hoodlum again.


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## SerenityFL

Silverbeat, I want to buy you a gift. I did your "back up" thing today and guess who started to get it and listen! HOLY! BOVINE!

Now, to be honest, I did not do it right when I got home from work. I let them go do their business, burn off some energy, (that's always fun with a 30' lead....my arm!!), and then, on the way home, when he was hot, tired and wanted to get inside and drink lots of water, I decided to give it a try.

I mean, he _really_ wants to go home, so what better time, right?

We started off, he pulled. I said, "back", he kinda sorta listened but not really. Ok, standing like a tree was useless and made me look stupid, I don't particularly like just waltzing off in the other direction, I'm tired of my arm being extended that way and I don't want to yank him....so, I took a few steps back. Now, I gave him the command, he didn't listen but he heard my voice so it's not like I just up and changed things on him without warning.

It took us about two minutes to go three feet.

I was thinking this is one thick, stubborn dog! He is just so in to every thing else on the planet besides walking next to me.

But, I persevered, powered on by your success.

We continued on, I said, "back" again, he listened a bit more, came back and as soon as he got by my side and the leash slacked, he forged on ahead again.

No dog, no. I know this works and dammit, you are going to make me look good if we have to be out here all fricken night being eaten alive by mosquitoes and deer flies.

After about the 5th time of "back" and taking a few steps back until he got to my side, (after that two minute, three foot marathon), he started to realize, "Man! I'm never gonna get home and get my a/c and cool water at this pace. Maybe I should just go ahead and do what she wants because this is taking forever!"

Yes, dog, yes, it is.

We don't have to walk too far but by the time we rounded the last bend and the home was in sight, he was actually...get this...I kid you not:

WALKING BY MY SIDE AND NOT PULLING!

Did I say, "holy bovine" yet?! This has never happened before. Ever!

All was well until he saw a neighbor cat and he bolted on forward to the end of his leash.

Guess what hoodlum. "Back!" A few steps back.

Hoodlum: "Oh shizzle, she really means it."

And he was slack, EVEN WITH A CAT sitting next to our house, the last 10 feet.

Now, to some, this may not seem a big deal but to me? Colossal. 

I don't expect this to mean he'll do it perfectly tomorrow or the next day or even the day after that but am seeing it is going to work and nothing else ever has so, girl, thank you. My arm thanks you. And soon, Shasta will thank you because it means our walks will be FAR more enjoyable and I'll start taking him for more, further, and the bond will get closer. Huzzah!


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## xellil

I agree - it IS collosal. Many congrats.


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## SilverBeat

That's amazing news! Congratulations on your breakthrough! It's great to hear that you are having success with this too. :bounce:


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## jiml

Postive-only is great for parlor tricks>>>>>

I too use corrections but I will add that all dogs are individuals. Many do just fine on just clicker training and could recall off any distraction. some may need more depending on your goals. Its never good to lump all dogs/situations together because something did or did not work for an individual dog. 
IMO


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## SilverBeat

jiml said:


> Postive-only is great for parlor tricks>>>>>
> 
> I too use corrections but I will add that all dogs are individuals. Many do just fine on just clicker training and could recall off any distraction. some may need more depending on your goals. Its never good to lump all dogs/situations together because something did or did not work for an individual dog.
> IMO


I agree, dogs learn differently--just look at this thread! What works for one dog/owner may have no affect on another. 

I will only ever be comfortable using positive training techniques though. I want my dog to know that when I lay my hands on him, it is always a good thing. And I hold to the belief that any dog can be taught using positive-only methods.


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