# California Natural Grain-Free Venison



## Jacksons Mom (Jun 13, 2010)

Any experience w/ it???

He's been on Castor & Pollux Organix. I've been pleased with it in all aspects (palatability, poop, coat, skin, etc) however his eyes have been runny the past two weeks or so. He's been on the food for probably about five-ish weeks and it did not seem like a problem at first (in fact, I was thrilled with the results of the food) but eye goop has def. gotten worse. Maybe I just did not notice it at first. Not even really goop... more just like tears staining running down his eyes.

I wasn't really sure if it's environmental or has something to do with the food so I decided to do a little eliminating. Vet had mentioned something to me about chicken allergy after his stomach issues back in July so I bought a bag of California Natural Venison (grain-free) a few days ago. I really like that it's simple ingredients and maybe trying a different protein source will help a bit.... I do like to keep him on low fat food now too as to prevent another attack of whatever-it was he went through (vet was pretty sure it was pancreatitis but never gave me a _definite _answer), but I'd rather be safe than sorry.

However, he is a really active dog and I hope that this 21% protein and 11% fat food is enough for him (max fat is 16.5%).... 

Anyone have experience with the CN grain free food? They have lamb as well so I will try that one next. Oh and he is getting some canned mixed in, bought Weruva canned to try, he loves it and it's really low fat, and it looks really yummy, like real chicken shreds in it, awesome! I like to keep canned in his diet to hopefully up the protein a bit 

Natural Dog Food, Cat Food and Puppy Food for Pets With Food Sensitivity ? California Natural

The eye goop stopped ALREADY after 3 1/2 days of eating it.... I really don't think it's coincidence. Maybe it is not the chicken, but something else... who knows (maybe it WAS the grains?)... the eye nastiness stopped the second day after food switch.

So we'll see how it continues going... he likes it alright. I don't think he likes it as much as the Organix flavor-wise but he's eating it so that's what matters! 

I was not too comfortable with the whole P&G thing initially, but I figure it's okay for now.


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## frogdog (Aug 10, 2011)

I tried CN temporarily (only a month or two) because we were so desparate dealing with Yogi's allergies. It was the worse food...his coat became dry and dull, his energy level decreased, his teeth in a short time with brushing started having plague buildup, his breath was horrible (which was a first), he overall started looking unhealthy...we took him off and started making homemade dog food. Now we feed raw...PMR...making a total transformation.

He also began refusing to eat CN even when adding Wellness 95% to his food.


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## Unosmom (May 3, 2009)

21% is way to low IMO, if youre going to feed it, at least add some canned fish to it, but I would find something better. Have you tried Healthwise lamb, its 27% protein and has a pretty basic ingredient list:
Healthy Pet Products ? Natural Cat Food, Healthy Dog Food, Puppy Kibble ? HealthWise Pet Food


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## imthemonkey (Aug 8, 2011)

I don't think theres enough meat in that. I guess it is worth a try though, if you are supplementing with canned food too. Wellness Core RF and Amicus Senior seem like good alternatives with higher protein but 10-12% fat.


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## Jacksons Mom (Jun 13, 2010)

Unosmom said:


> 21% is way to low IMO, if youre going to feed it, at least add some canned fish to it, but I would find something better. Have you tried Healthwise lamb, its 27% protein and has a pretty basic ingredient list:
> Healthy Pet Products ? Natural Cat Food, Healthy Dog Food, Puppy Kibble ? HealthWise Pet Food


Fat is too high in that.  Minimum is 16% and usually that means a maximum can be quite higher. Really would prefer to keep it under 15% ideally (15% being a maximum).

I also am kind of wanting to stick with grain-free because I am not exactly sure if the grains bother him or the chicken.... so kind of just experimenting, I guess. Doesn't HAVE to be, I guess, but since the Organix did contain grain, I have gotta wonder if that was a problem too. *sigh* Who knows... so confused, haha! 

I wish I could find a good kibble with low-moderate fat content but a bit higher protein (but still wouldn't wanna go TOO high...) It can be such a struggle. I saw that Wellness Core Reduced Fat seems okay but we've never had luck with Wellness products, both Core and regular... always caused the eye boogers as well as lots of poop. 

All the kibbles he did really well on, I am too scared to use now... TOTW, Acana, and Nature's Variety were our favorites but all the fat levels seem a little high for a now pancreatitis-prone dog.


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## Jacksons Mom (Jun 13, 2010)

frogdog said:


> I tired CN temporarily (only a month or two) because we were so desparate dealing with Yogi's allergies. It was the worse food...his coat became dry and dull, his energy level decreased, his teeth in a short time with brushing started having plague buildup, his breath was horrible (which was a first), he overall started looking unhealthy...we took him off and started making homemade dog food. Now we feed raw...PMR...making a total transformation.
> 
> He also began refusing to eat CN even when adding Wellness 95% to his food.


Thanks for the info!

Do you think I should just finish the bag out and keep seeing how he does on it? It does seem like it's awfully low in certain vitamins and ingredients and I want to keep his coat nice and shiny, etc. I guess I can't really judge that stuff until he's on it for a while longer....

I won't be doing PMR and I like some of the pre-made stuff but it gets a bit pricey to solely feed to a 16lb dog, plus we are always traveling and back and forth between houses, making it impossible to feed it, so I'd prefer a kibble on hand. I also am unsure how to decipher the fat content in the pre-made stuff (say, Bravo!) to a dry matter basis.

I really wish the Acana classic line was available in the US. They have a Light & Trim formula that seems like it'd fit the bill, but alas, it's not available here.

Btw, Yogi (is that who is in your avatar?) is soooo handsome! What a good looking dog.


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## Jacksons Mom (Jun 13, 2010)

Oh, I did notice a new Blue Buffalo Wilderness Weight Mgt. formula, too, but the fiber is pretty high? Most of the foods Jackson is the fiber is on the lower end... plus I doubt he'd eat those little vitamin things they put in the kibble. And I am not sure if I WANT him on a weight management formula... he definitely does not need to lose weight. 

I was really happy with C&P Organix and still have half a bag left... maybe I will start feeding it again and if the eye boogers come back, then I guess I know it's the culprit. Which is a shame cuz he liked it so much.


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## Caty M (Aug 13, 2010)

Weight management formulas are just usually lower in fat... if he loses weight, just feed him more. Just because he is on one doesn't mean he will lose any.

I honestly don't think any 21% protein food is enough for a carnivore. I stated before that imo your best option would be to feed homecooked or homemade raw- since you can skin everything, defat etc. If you can't/won't I would at least feed a kibble like CORE and still add cooked chicken breast, fish, lean ground beef with the fat drained off, etc into the diet. All animals need some sort of unprocessed component in their diet.


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## Jacksons Mom (Jun 13, 2010)

Caty M said:


> Weight management formulas are just usually lower in fat... if he loses weight, just feed him more. Just because he is on one doesn't mean he will lose any.
> 
> I honestly don't think any 21% protein food is enough for a carnivore. I stated before that imo your best option would be to feed homecooked or homemade raw- since you can skin everything, defat etc. If you can't/won't I would at least feed a kibble like CORE and still add cooked chicken breast, fish, lean ground beef with the fat drained off, etc into the diet. All animals need some sort of unprocessed component in their diet.


Thanks- I do agree, it just seems too low for him, especially since I consider him to be pretty active.

Ideally, I'd love to homecook. But I'm not gonna lie, I'm lazy. I'm a college student, I hardly cook for myself, and I'd be too worried about balancing properly and all that... everyone I've talked to that does it just says it's kind of a pain in the butt. I know a few who have gone back to kibble feeding. I know.... laziness... but what can I say?

I forgot another option: the Now! Senior formula. May give it a try, our local pet boutique carries the smaller bags of it usually so maybe I could give it a test run. Actually, even their Go! duck formula might not be too bad - http://www.petcurean.com/index.php?page_id=204

The only issue I have with CORE is, like I said, he's always done pretty crappy on Wellness in the past, lots of poop, lots of eye boogers, and I've found some nastiness in two bags of it and it just kind of grosses me.... I don't know if they were some kind of maggots or what.

I dunno... some times I even wonder if going back to ToTW Sierra Mountain would be okay. It's not extremely high in protein/fat (25%, 15%) but I just am probably overly worried, just trying to errr on the side of caution to ensure it hopefully doesn't happen again (whatever kind of episode he had).


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## Caty M (Aug 13, 2010)

To be honest I've never homecooked so I can't really go too much into it. But if you would consider it... It's hands down your best option. You know EXACTLY what is in it. You have a pretty teeny but active dog so even if you fed up to 4% of his body weight you could easily make enough food in one batch to last a month if you get a large pot. 

If his pancreatitis was acute and not chronic past the initial recovery you can usually ease back into his old food again. I THINK you had stated that he got into some fatty foods, am I correct, and wasn't triggered by his regular food.

Either way I would definitely add in some meats to his diet apart from kibble. You can toss it in the oven and ignore it for twenty minutes.. no need to be exact to taste like human food!


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## Jacksons Mom (Jun 13, 2010)

Yup, it was caused by fatty human foods... although the vet never even really gave me a definite answer. His bloodwork showed his lipase levels were very high and they kept him for over 24hrs on IV's, etc, then we went back for sub-q fluids for about 5 days, re-did bloodwork over and over again, and they never saw the lipase levels in a normal range, always were a bit high. They sent out for a cPL test (specific pancreatitis test) and it came back normal, or negative for pancreatitis, but this was about a week after the initial ordeal, so who really knows to be honest. I mean, he ate a lot of crap the night before he started puking... I caught the tail end of him eating a chocolate cupcake, he very well could have eaten the whole thing, plus sausage from pizza, kids were dropping stuff, ugh... it was very chaotic.

But I guess I'm just super paranoid because if it was indeed an acute episode of pancreatitis, he's more susceptible to it occurring again. So I was always told and read that watching diet was very important for the rest of his life... but I really think he'd be okay on TOTW again. The Organix he was eating was around 14% minimum fat so, I mean, since he had no issues with that, I would think the 15% fat in TOTW would be fine for him. But it's not always simply fat percentage, either, certain ingredients can trigger,etc.


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## Caty M (Aug 13, 2010)

Oh- one thing I read that was important is to feed often, like four times a day- helps prevent overstimulation of the pancreas producing insulin. 

Other than the pancreas issue did he do better on ToTW than C&P? 

If it was caused by eating junk food I'd think you would be ok going back on a moderate fat food.


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## frogdog (Aug 10, 2011)

Jacksons Mom said:


> Thanks for the info!
> 
> Do you think I should just finish the bag out and keep seeing how he does on it? It does seem like it's awfully low in certain vitamins and ingredients and I want to keep his coat nice and shiny, etc. I guess I can't really judge that stuff until he's on it for a while longer....
> 
> ...


You're more than welcome!

I can only tell you our experience with CN but know all dogs react differently to foods. We didn't finish the last bag...the outcome from feeding CN had such negative results...we just threw it out. I normally would donate or give the food to my father for his dog but this food was deplorable. 

After feeding CN and before feeding PMR...we fed premade raw. We tried Stella and Chewy's...they also have freeze dried which would be comparable to feeding kibble but much better quality. Yogi is an extremely picky eater and after a short while refused to eat...we were alternating between Duck Duck Goose and Surf 'n Turf. 

We tried many kibble brands, cooked homemade, tried premade raw and nothing worked well for him and that he also liked until feeding PMR. It was difficult finding foods for Yogi becasue he's allergic to...venison, pork, peas, potatoes, kelp, corn, yeast...and many foods had either peas or kelp.

Thank You Thank You Thank You...he's our furbaby.


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## Jacksons Mom (Jun 13, 2010)

I'm gonna just go back to TOTW  He's been eating it all weekend with great luck and I will still keep an eye on how things are going. He just always did REALLY well on it and I was always really happy with it in the past so I'm going to stick with it (hopefully). It's pretty moderate, IMO, with 25% protein and 15% fat. Sooo... hopefully we can just go back to TOTW.


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## Jacksons Mom (Jun 13, 2010)

frogdog said:


> I tried CN temporarily (only a month or two) because we were so desparate dealing with Yogi's allergies. It was the worse food...his coat became dry and dull, his energy level decreased, his teeth in a short time with brushing started having plague buildup, his breath was horrible (which was a first), he overall started looking unhealthy...we took him off and started making homemade dog food. Now we feed raw...PMR...making a total transformation.
> 
> He also began refusing to eat CN even when adding Wellness 95% to his food.


So I ended up continuing the CN. Just to see. He only ate TOTW for that one weekend and I wasn't happening with the amount he was pooping (a lot!) -- I am just not sure if a food like that will be okay for his system now, it just makes me a bit nervous, even though he'd probably be fine. Anyways, he nearly finished the venison bag and I bought the lamb flavor too.... but I think I know what you mean.... his coat seems really dull to me. Maybe it's just me... we do have well water at our house and it's been running low on salt (gave him a bath a few days ago), but I doubt that's it. I don't know, maybe it is. His eye tears/staining have been fine on it, poops have been fine. But I did notice a bit of smellier breath, which is also odd for him. Looked like he had a bit of tarter/plaque build-up on some of his back teeth, too, which is odd for him and I also just brushed his teeth, put on Petzlife, etc. Maybe I am just looking too much into it since you said something. But it does make me curious.

I have a practically full bag of CN lamb now but I think I kept the receipt and will be able to return it. Think I am just going to end up going with a grain inclusive food, like Natural Balance Lamb & Rice LID, plus I'll continue feeding the Weruva canned. I wanna just stick with one thing... so hopefully NB will do the trick.

I've read a few things about potatoes and pancreatitis, not sure what to believe. There is so much conflicting info out there... but I'd like to avoid certain ingredients, I think, just to be safe. I guess Nature's Variety Prairie could be an option, too. He tends to like large kibble though (even though he's a small dog lol) so was thinking I could get the NB large bites. I am probably being on the overly-safe/cautious side but oh well.


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## PDXdogmom (Jun 30, 2010)

I empathize with how hard it must be to find just the right food for your dog. If you end up liking a formula with a pretty low fat %, you might try adding some unrefined coconut oil to improve skin and coat condition. I don't believe it reacts in the system the same way as lets say chicken fat does. The coconut oil has really helped my dogs in the past.


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## Jacksons Mom (Jun 13, 2010)

Thanks! I was going to get some fish oil or coconut oil. I know homecooking or raw would probably be best but I simply don't have the energy or resources to do it. I've said it before, but I hardly cook for myself, I am a college student who is living at home, travels with my dog a lot, it just won't work for us at this time.


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## Liz (Sep 27, 2010)

We use coconut oil and all the dogs do well on it. The emu oil might be the best but I have kids to raise and that stuff is expensive! One day maybe. I shoudl ask for some for Christmas.LOL


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## Jacksons Mom (Jun 13, 2010)

Do you just pour the coconut oil over their food?

Would you recommend coconut oil over fish oil for healthy/shiny hair?


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## Liz (Sep 27, 2010)

My dogs did not do well on any of the fish oils so that is why we feed the coconut oil. It solidifies at temps lower than 70 degrees so I just drop a teaspoon full several times per week. The best buy is at vitacost and we buy their Nutiva brand.


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## Caty M (Aug 13, 2010)

I feed fish oil and use coconut oil as a leave in conditioner!


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## Kat (Jul 12, 2011)

I heard that Wellness and Natura Pet got bought out by... proctor and gamble I think? So soon enough the quality of their proteins will start to go down. For a good quality dry kibble I would suggest Taste of the Wild, and if you could, add some canned into the rotation to up water intake


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## PDXdogmom (Jun 30, 2010)

Jacksons Mom said:


> Do you just pour the coconut oil over their food?
> 
> Would you recommend coconut oil over fish oil for healthy/shiny hair?


Yes. Coconut for healthy/shiny hair. I use salmon oil capsules with my older dog which seems to help his joint issues.

Start out with a small amount of coconut oil - maybe 1/2 tsp. I just drop it on top of the kibble and then add the warm water on top which liquifies it. I give it once a day. Make sure it's unrefined coconut oil.


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## 3Musketeers (Nov 4, 2010)

I vote to stick with TOTW too.

C & P recently changed some of their formulas, for the worse IMO, they added "pea protein concentrate", although to which foods, I'm not sure. I don't agree with foods where the majority of the protein is plant based.
Haven't given the dogs coconut oil, so no feedback on that.




Liz said:


> My dogs did not do well on any of the fish oils so that is why we feed the coconut oil. It solidifies at temps lower than 70 degrees so I just drop a teaspoon full several times per week. The best buy is at vitacost and we buy their Nutiva brand.


I wish I'd known this before I went ahead and stored about 1/2 cup of the stuff in the fridge, I thought it would stay fresh longer LOL. Came back to some waxy-substance.


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## Jacksons Mom (Jun 13, 2010)

Thanks guys! You all have been a great help. 

I'm going to stick through a bag of Natural Balance Lamb & Rice. It's a bit higher fat than the CN which I think will be more beneficial to the coat, but still less than TOTW, which I am not totally comfortable with feeding anymore. I did not choose the grain-free formulas due to there being so much potato. It has a bit more meat and protein too. Plus I am adding the Weruva canned still, like I said (he LOVES this stuff).

Started feeding yesterday and so far so good, but we'll see.


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