# New EB formula, lamb.



## Sapphire-Light (Aug 8, 2010)

Neat this is an update on facebook Meadow Feast - Ingredients : Earthborn Holistic Pet Food :thumb:

I only I could see see any EB formulas again on sale were I live :/


----------



## Jacksons Mom (Jun 13, 2010)

I saw this the other day! I actually was considering adding it to the rotation. I like having a grainfree option from them that is a bit lower in calories and fat. But Earthborn is not sold anywhere around here. I also don't really know anything about them as a company and where the food is sourced, produced, etc. Could someone fill me in a little on Earthborn?


----------



## meggels (May 30, 2010)

It is made by Midwestern Pet Foods in Indiana. Same people who make ProPac which has been around for many years. 

I used to work for them and think they are a very stand up company. Abbie has done amazing on the great plains feast and primitive natural. I'd love to try her on this one too.


----------



## Unosmom (May 3, 2009)

Looks interesting, but I'm not confident about the meat content and how much of it comes from lamb vs peas.


----------



## PDXdogmom (Jun 30, 2010)

Unosmom said:


> Looks interesting, but I'm not confident about the meat content and how much of it comes from lamb vs peas.


My hesitation also. Peas are high in protein and peas are listed as the 2nd ingredient, pea protein #5 and pea fiber #6.

It wouldn't make me not feed the formula; though I would feed it at 75% and add fresh meat for the other 25%.


----------



## Sapphire-Light (Aug 8, 2010)

Are peas bad for dogs or just in case if it's the main protein source?


----------



## PDXdogmom (Jun 30, 2010)

Sapphire-Light said:


> Are peas bad for dogs or just in case if it's the main protein source?


As a vegetable, peas are just fine for dogs. I just wouldn't want any plant-based protein to be the primary protein for my dogs.


----------



## westminsterthree (Jan 10, 2012)

PDXdogmom said:


> As a vegetable, peas are just fine for dogs. I just wouldn't want any plant-based protein to be the primary protein for my dogs.


This is a very good example of a good company doing something stupid, like Fromm. For heaven sakes, many regular people do not know that poor quality lamb cannot be used in large quantities because of the ash levels, so a concentrated protein source is used. This food is 25% protein even with "pea protein".

However, 25% protein is about right for the normal dog. A much better alternative would be Annamaet Encore at 25/14 with all human grade ingredients and no derivative protein. Precise Foundation as well.

The company's owns Pro Pac Adult Chunk for half the cost is better.


----------



## khackett (Mar 8, 2013)

*Can you clarify?*



westminsterthree said:


> This is a very good example of a good company doing something stupid, like Fromm. For heaven sakes, many regular people do not know that poor quality lamb cannot be used in large quantities because of the ash levels, so a concentrated protein source is used. This food is 25% protein even with "pea protein".
> 
> However, 25% protein is about right for the normal dog. A much better alternative would be Annamaet Encore at 25/14 with all human grade ingredients and no derivative protein. Precise Foundation as well.
> 
> The company's owns Pro Pac Adult Chunk for half the cost is better.


This is kind of an old thread, but I just purchased Meadow Feast from the first time (switching from TOTW). There are a ton of options out there, but I'm not willing to spend a small fortune. Earthborn seems the best bang for the buck. Your post is quite confusing, can you clarify for me please? For example, are you assuming that Earthborn is using a poor quality lamb source because they are including peas? Also, why would you suggest the Pro Pac formula is better when it contains corn amongst other grains? Are you not a believer in grain free? If so I don't even know why you'd be commenting on this thread. I'm looking forward to your response, especially concerning your protein concerns. thanks.


----------



## RawPitbulls (Feb 7, 2013)

Not much meat in this food at all.


----------



## Herzo (Feb 5, 2011)

Yes old and he has been banned but your in luck he is on again and now is monstersdad. He'll be around at some point.


----------



## khackett (Mar 8, 2013)

*need a little more please*



RawPitbulls said:


> Not much meat in this food at all.


Is this based on scientific analysis? Is this compared to other grain-free formulas? Is this your hunch? Sorry, need a little more to work off of here


----------



## SuperPug (Mar 5, 2013)

khackett said:


> Is this based on scientific analysis? Is this compared to other grain-free formulas? Is this your hunch? Sorry, need a little more to work off of here


It's in the ingredients: Meadow Feast - Ingredients : Earthborn Holistic Pet Food
I only see 1 meat type listed. The rest listed is vegetables, fruits, grains, supplements and preservatives.


----------



## DaViking (Sep 27, 2011)

SuperPug said:


> It's in the ingredients: Meadow Feast - Ingredients : Earthborn Holistic Pet Food
> I only see 1 meat type listed. The rest listed is vegetables, fruits, grains, supplements and preservatives.


1, 3 or 77 named meat sourced doesn't say anything about how much meat is in there but it does say something about the amino acid composition. 30+0+0 = 30 and 10+10+10 = 30


----------



## SuperPug (Mar 5, 2013)

DaViking said:


> 1, 3 or 77 named meat sourced doesn't say anything about how much meat is in there but it does say something about the amino acid composition. 30+0+0 = 30 and 10+10+10 = 30


I'd rather see more lamb parts than plant parts.


----------



## DaViking (Sep 27, 2011)

SuperPug said:


> I'd rather see more lamb parts than plant parts.


What do you mean by "I'd rather see more lamb parts"? This is true for every food out there, not specific to this formula; 30% lamb is the same as 10% lamb + 10% lamb + 10% lamb. You simply do not know how much is in there before you ask them or see an EU label for the same food. You an do a guesstimate based on where the protein is coming from but that's about it. (edit; actually since they don't "advertise" lamb in the name of the product they are not required to list the percentages for the EU market)


----------



## SuperPug (Mar 5, 2013)

DaViking said:


> What do you mean by "I'd rather see more lamb parts"?



I'm not sure how you're not understanding. Are you saying you don't see the difference between meat and plants?
It is clearly healthier for dogs to have more meat than plant. Thus a kibble would be higher quality having more meat.


----------



## DaViking (Sep 27, 2011)

khackett said:


> This is kind of an old thread, but I just purchased Meadow Feast from the first time (switching from TOTW). There are a ton of options out there, but I'm not willing to spend a small fortune. Earthborn seems the best bang for the buck. Your post is quite confusing, can you clarify for me please? For example, are you assuming that Earthborn is using a poor quality lamb source because they are including peas? Also, why would you suggest the Pro Pac formula is better when it contains corn amongst other grains? Are you not a believer in grain free? If so I don't even know why you'd be commenting on this thread. I'm looking forward to your response, especially concerning your protein concerns. thanks.


Email midwestern and get the ash levels for the earthborn products, they are not good. Higher ash levels mean lower quality meal sources and less bioavailability.

This is how it works for some brands (not all though and this is not directed specifically at Midwestern) I know because I was involved in European distribution talks with several US brands back when super premium first took off. 1) Add more meat sources = increased cost, bad --> 2) Ease off on the quality requirements for those meat sources some = cost back to baseline again --> 3) Bring to market as super premium species appropriate diet with more meat than ever, which technically is true --> 4) Ask more since it's super premium --> 5) Old cost, new price = we make more. If the bioavailability is sub-par it doesn't matter that a food list 30, 35 or 40% protein, it will just produce a lot of waste and you will get a better result from feeding a 25-30% protein food with a higher quality protein source(s). How do you know? You don't. Not without diving into more details (from those who are willing to give them up) and real life use.


----------



## DaViking (Sep 27, 2011)

SuperPug said:


> I'm not sure how you're not understanding. Are you saying you don't see the difference between meat and plants?
> It is clearly healthier for dogs to have more meat than plant. Thus a kibble would be higher quality having more meat.


Morph discussion, no thanks. The whole point is that you don't know how much meat this formula have by reading the label, just like you don't know how much meat any formula have by reading any label. That's the whole point and very simple to understand. You could theoretically have 50 carb sources listed in a row after *1* animal protein source and they combined could still weigh less than the animal protein source.



SuperPug said:


> Thus a kibble would be higher quality having more meat.


This is not correct and you are doing your dog a disservice if this is your main criteria. You are opening yourself up to tactics as I described above. The quality of the meat sources is what determines if it's a quality product or not. Low quality meat (and fat) sources leads to digestive and metabolic issues which is worse for the dog than a food with less but higher quality meats and fats.


----------



## monster'sdad (Jul 29, 2012)

This is a bad food. I wouldn't spend a nickle on it. Without seeing the recipe you can't be sure, but a Lamb food with total protein of 26% that contains Pea Protein and Peas is something I wouldn't use. There are better foods at 1/2 the cost. I also don't like the fact there is no animal fat.


----------



## khackett (Mar 8, 2013)

Unosmom said:


> Looks interesting, but I'm not confident about the meat content and how much of it comes from lamb vs peas.


This is definitely a concern, but meat is still the main ingredient, and Earthborn seems to have a very good reputation. Plus, peas aren't exactly a bad food for dogs. It also smells VERY meaty, not that i'm putting much confidence in that, but it's worth mentioning. The TOTW Pacific Stream I'm transitioning FROM started to smell awful (This is unfortunate because it smelled great when we started. Kinda scary! Oh, and they never emailed me back why. High time to switch!).

I have a feeling Earthborn did the pea protein to reduce the overall protein content. For example, Nature Balance grain-free have low 20% protein levels, but meat is often the 2nd ingredient (potato often the 1st). They still look like decent foods, and Meadow Feast is at 26%, with meat as 1st ingr. This is maybe an obvious theory, but I'm not quite comfortable feeding my dog 30%+ protein like most of the grain-frees are. I realize it's often low ash protein, but factor in the cost, and my senior dog being less active..... Meadow Feast seems like a good balance.

It's good to get feedback though. The Dog Food Advisor says not to be concerned about protein %s, but I also like to save $10-15 a bag! Maybe I shouldn't care about protein %s nor price diff! Ahh well, I at least know this is a good kibble. Probably not the best, but I guess one of the big questions is how far is Earthborn Meadow Feast from the best? hmm


----------



## khackett (Mar 8, 2013)

DaViking said:


> Email midwestern and get the ash levels for the earthborn products, they are not good. Higher ash levels mean lower quality meal sources and less bioavailability.


Can you clarify, have you emailed Midwestern concerning ash levels in their grain free formulas? It sounds like you know already? BTW - Your posts are great feedback. Just what I was looking for. Thanks.


----------



## SuperPug (Mar 5, 2013)

DaViking said:


> This is not correct and you are doing your dog a disservice if this is your main criteria. You are opening yourself up to tactics as I described above. The quality of the meat sources is what determines if it's a quality product or not. Low quality meat (and fat) sources leads to digestive and metabolic issues which is worse for the dog than a food with less but higher quality meats and fats.


Yes yes I am aware of that. I am actually genuinely curious as to how you're not understanding my statement. I stand by what I said, I'd rather see more meats than plants in a kibble.


----------



## DaViking (Sep 27, 2011)

SuperPug said:


> Yes yes I am aware of that. I am actually genuinely curious as to how you're not understanding my statement. I stand by what I said, I'd rather see more meats than plants in a kibble.


Because that's hardly a discussion, hence why I am not discussing it. And that was not what you said originally either, you made a statement about something you do not know based on reading the ingredient panel. Other than PETA I know very few that would like to see more carbs and functional plant ingredients. Saying more meats is better is different than saying more meat than carbs is better, there is a difference


----------



## DaViking (Sep 27, 2011)

khackett said:


> Can you clarify, have you emailed Midwestern concerning ash levels in their grain free formulas? It sounds like you know already? BTW - Your posts are great feedback. Just what I was looking for. Thanks.


I should have them somewhere, I'll have a look. Someone else got them too. Was it InkedMarie that emailed them recently? Basically all but one of their formulas was around or above 10% ash. Considering 2 - 3% is all a dog need this is excessive waste and potentially harmful in the long run. A good food should be in the 5 to 7% range absolute maximum 8%


----------



## khackett (Mar 8, 2013)

DaViking said:


> I should have them somewhere, I'll have a look. Someone else got them too. Was it InkedMarie that emailed them recently? Basically all but one of their formulas was around or above 10% ash. Considering 2 - 3% is all a dog need this is excessive waste and potentially harmful in the long run. A good food should be in the 5 to 7% range absolute maximum 8%


Great, thank you! I just shot them an email. I'll post if/when/what the respond. This would be disappointing. I'm curious what formula (or brand even) you recommend for a 55 lb senior mild-moderate activity german sheperd mix?  I'm guessing you're gonna say raw  Pending Earthborn/Midwestern's feedback, it seems I'm back looking again! What a racket lol!


----------



## khackett (Mar 8, 2013)

Ouch. Found this on another forum (thx google). Seems pretty consistent with TOTW - probably why they cost about the same. DUH right?

Primitive Natural is 12
Great Plains is 9.8
Coastal Catch is 7.5
Meadow Feast is 9.1
Adult Vantage is 6.7
Ocean Fusion is 8.8
Small Breed is 8
Puppy Vantage is 8.1.


----------



## Caty M (Aug 13, 2010)

A food being above 30% protein isn't bad. The lower the fat and protein the higher the carbs. Meat depending on cut is 50+% protein. Natural balance is NOT a good food, protein and fat are much too low for a carnivore.

If your dog isn't active, feed him less, not a different food.


----------



## PDXdogmom (Jun 30, 2010)

About half a year ago I tried both Earthborn Coastal Catch and then the Earthborn Meadow Feast for my two dogs. 

They did reasonably well on the Coastal Catch and it was the only one of the formulas I felt OK about in regard to the ash levels. With the Meadow Feast, I thought the higher ash level might not matter so much since I rotate foods every several months. But I did not like my dogs' skin or coat condition at all on the Meadow Feast. My golden started losing clumps of fur and both his and my lab's coat and skin were dull and dry. 

Ultimately, even though the price wasn't bad and the company has a good track record, I decided to leave Earthborn products. The fact that "pea protein", not just peas was the 5th ingredient made me question the use of that ingredient more and more. I feel like it's becoming the "corn gluten" (not cornmeal) of this decade.

And I'm no longer impressed with any brand just because they may list a mix of 5-7 specific "fresh" meats and meals before listing the first carb source. It can be a marketing game and may very well not contain any higher percentage of meat protein than a formula listing chicken meal, potato, turkey meal, peas, chicken fat as the first 5 ingredients. DaViking is right. Unless you see the percentages listed on a European site, you simply can't say for sure.


----------



## riddick4811 (Nov 2, 2011)

FWIW- I fed Earthborn Meadows Feast and Great Plains (switched every other bag) for about a year. It was one of the foods all my dogs could eat and all did reasonably well on it. Nice coats, good poop, good energy, no health issues. Bloodwork done that year was normal on all dogs even my seniors. Only reason I quit was the price went up substantially. At the time I wasn't aware of the ash levels, but still even with them, I would probably still feed those 2 formulas again. 

None of my dogs like the Coastal Catch and I didn't use the Primitive b/c I have dogs that can't have chicken.


----------



## khackett (Mar 8, 2013)

ok, after hours of my life gone in dog food research (once again).... I think I'm just going to settle this and go with Dr. Tim's Kinesis grain free and breath a sigh of relief as it gets delivered to my DOOR for 15-20 bucks less than comparable brands. 6.9% ash beats EB Meadow Feast 9.1% any day. How can you argue with this? Sorry EB


----------



## PDXdogmom (Jun 30, 2010)

I'll be interested to hear how the Dr. Tim's Kinesis works out for you. I was strongly considering it as well as Annamaet Salcha to try for my golden. Have the Annamaet ordered and on its way. They both have a lot to like about them, IMO.


----------



## doggiedad (Jan 23, 2011)

Does EB food contain ethoxyquin?


----------



## RawPitbulls (Feb 7, 2013)

SuperPug said:


> Yes yes I am aware of that. I am actually genuinely curious as to how you're not understanding my statement. I stand by what I said, I'd rather see more meats than plants in a kibble.


^^^^
I agree!


----------



## DaViking (Sep 27, 2011)

khackett said:


> ok, after hours of my life gone in dog food research (once again).... I think I'm just going to settle this and go with Dr. Tim's Kinesis grain free and breath a sigh of relief as it gets delivered to my DOOR for 15-20 bucks less than comparable brands. 6.9% ash beats EB Meadow Feast 9.1% any day. How can you argue with this? Sorry EB


I think that's going to be a good choice for you. Since we are talking about individuals and not robots here you never now but few put as much emphasis at avoiding dumb compromises as Dr Tims.


----------



## khackett (Mar 8, 2013)

*Initial update on transition from EB to Dr. Tim's*

Quick update. Recap first - transitioned from TOTW Pacific Stream (started to smell like inferior food) to EB Meadow Feast (which smelled amazing!). Oh - I'm not basing my opinions simply on smell, but it certainly can get your attention especially when TOTW goes from smelling like a premium salmon kibble to smelling like... something I wouldn't feed my dog. Mix in a recall to affect opinion, but I digress... 

Earthborn doesn't seem like a bad company per se, but I quickly soured when I learned about ash content and it's potential affect on health. EB Meadow Feast is at 9.1%. My dog also immediately got eye boogers and dandruff, but we weren't on it long - maybe 2.5 weeks.

On ash content - EB's customer service people actually told me they hadn't heard that 9.1% might be considered high for ash levels, and maybe this is true for most opinions, but for what it's worth, I've read compelling arguments for keeping ash levels below 8% (at least).

This brings me to Dr. Tims! Being on this forum I learned about Dr. Tim's, and after considerable research (and pestering Dr. Tim himself) we transitioned to Kinesis grain free, which has a ton going for it, including an ash level of 6.9%. After 3-4 days of completed transition, eye boogers and dandruff completely gone. Being that spring is arriving, I found this a great sign. Everything else seems fine too - stool, energy, etc.

We're still figuring out portion size. We've always been in the 25% protein range, and Dr. Tim's is a bit higher. Add being a senior dog - 12/13 years old, 50-55lb, german shepherd mix, relatively active and energetic - 1-2 decent walks a day + wandering a substantial yard, we've been trying "rounded" 1 cup servings (twice a day). So far, she's been ready for the next meal a couple hours early, so we'll see how this goes. We've tried doing carrots and celery for in-between meal snacks (I don't want to add much more protein), but apparently sometimes you really can't teach an old dog new tricks HAH!

Hopefully this helps somebody out there, and if you have any input for me - especially with snacks, that'd be great! Cheers.


----------



## InkedMarie (Sep 9, 2011)

Thanks for the update, glad Dr Tim's is working for you.


----------



## PDXdogmom (Jun 30, 2010)

Glad to hear the transition went well and that the Dr. Tim's grain-free is working. I would have tried it myself if my one dog didn't have a chicken intolerance. It would be nice to see Dr. Tim come out with a seafood based formula in the future. I agree about the great ash levels in Dr. Tim's formulas. That was always one of my hesitations with the Earthborn formulas (except the Coastal Catch). My dogs are eating the Annamaet Aqualuk grain-free now for the past few months and made a great transition also. The Annamaet ash levels are similar to Dr. Tim's also.


----------



## khackett (Mar 8, 2013)

*Not bashing EB*

Since this is an EB thread, I just want to say, even though I went for Dr. Tim's, I'm not bad mouthing EB. They are a local company for me, so I was actually excited about the purchase. For most intent and purposes they seem like a good company. They have a very competitive price point for comparable brands. Hopefully, like Dr. Tim, they look at these forums to gauge the market. It was great their customer service person got back to me quickly (twice) and was honest about not realizing 9.1% ash as possibly considered high. It could've been a deflection, or it could be a reflection of some ignorance in the company. Who knows. It took myself (a renowned googler) to uncover significant discussion into ash as it relates to dog nutrition, so I wouldn't be surprised if many dog food companies consider it a top priority. I think that's maybe why you don't see it very often in the guaranteed analysis (unlike Dr. Tim's which does list it). 

The dog food industry seems pretty cut throat, and if you compare the different prices, bag weights, ingredient balance, etc, you can easily see the wide array of calibration these companies go through to get a niche and find a competitive advantage. Lower ash level probably = more expensive sourcing. I could be totally off base, but this seems a reasonable assumption. I'm guessing Dr. Tim's can keep their price lower (vs. comparable brands) because it's more a labor of love vs. a profit-oriented venture. That's of course just a reasonable assumption on my part, but I think this is a huge competitive advantage for the company. For Earthborn, it seems every employee I spoke with at the best pet store in town (for dog food variety at least) recommends EB as the best reasonably priced alternative to the premium brands. Most of which are feeding their dogs currently, so EB is doing something right. It could be a local thing (we're all in Indiana).

So Earthborn, if you're paying attention, here is feedback from a former customer.


----------

