# New to RAW



## Adam76 (Dec 24, 2010)

Hi I've been reading this site and find it really helpful. We getting a bulldog in two weeks and I want to feed the raw diet. I have a couple questions, I was also looking at the BARF diet, so why do some feel vegetables are necessary but I see here you feed no veggies. Do you add any supplements to the diet, do you feed eggs and if so how often. I would like to make a large amount at one time so whats the best way to thaw the meat so its ready for feeding time. I'm sure I'll have many more questions in the future. 
Thanks 
Adam


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## DaneMama (Jun 27, 2008)

First off, hello and welcome to DFC. Glad you've joined up and are going to feed a raw diet, you won't regret it one bit!



Adam76 said:


> Hi I've been reading this site and find it really helpful. We getting a bulldog in two weeks and I want to feed the raw diet. I have a couple questions


Questions are good, it's how you learn and don't ever hesitate to ask!



> I was also looking at the BARF diet, so why do some feel vegetables are necessary but I see here you feed no veggies.


Most of the raw feeders here don't feed a raw diet with veggies/fruit added in (which is what BARF diet is) because dogs lack the digestive tract and function to digest plant material. For example, if you fed a ground raw diet that also contained whole peas, chunks of carrots, corn and whole green beans everything but the peas, carrots, corn and green beans would be digested. In essence it all goes in the same way it comes out. This is because dogs aren't able to process veggies at all. If you wanted to do veggies you'd have to blend them into a puree for them to even be digestible for your dog. But this isn't necessary because if you feed a well rounded prey model raw diet with plenty of variety consisting of mostly meat, some raw bone and some organ all the nutrient requirements for you dog will be covered.



> Do you add any supplements to the diet


No, we personally dont because our dogs don't need them. Some people do add supplements for specific health issues like a gluscosamine/chondroitin supplement for arthritis. As long as you feed a well rounded prey model raw diet consisting of mostly meat, some bone and some organ from a variety of protein sources your dog will not need supplements.



> Do you feed eggs and if so how often.


We feed eggs maybe once a week or two. Some people feed them more often. I'd say once a week is a good number. You can feed them raw, shell and all.



> I would like to make a large amount at one time so whats the best way to thaw the meat so its ready for feeding time.


The thing is you're not making anything. You'd be feeding whole, raw meaty bones like chicken quarters or turkey necks or big chunks of meat that your dog will have to rip and tear apart. Nothing really to prepare other than packaging up meat into containers. We feed about 10-15 pounds of meat/bone to our five dogs per day. So one 12 quart container holds one day of meat. We pull it out the night before to thaw, and we feed it the following night (once a day feedings is preferred on a raw diet). Maybe once every 3-4 months we get a huge bulk order of about 400-800 pounds of raw meats we buy from a wholesale distributing company that we thaw out and package up in the 12 quart containers. All in all we spend maybe 2 hours every 3-4 months packaging meat up and then 2-4 mins a day during feeding time. It's incredibly simple and easy once you get the hang of it.



> I'm sure I'll have many more questions in the future.
> Thanks
> Adam


Ask away, we are always happy to help!

How old is this bulldog you're getting?

I suggest reading through the link below several times to get a better grasp on how to feed a raw diet. 

How to get started | Prey Model Raw


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## Adam76 (Dec 24, 2010)

Thanks for the help, I read the article you wrote earlier and it was helpful. The bulldog will be 8 weeks old, another question is I see some people use meat grinders to grind up the meat, to me is seems like its a little easier to eat that way but are they any pros or cons to doing that.


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

congrats on getting one of my favourite breeds....how old is your baby going to be because that will determine what you start out with....

your enthusiasm is infectious.....and i'd suggest in the time you have and during your first months with your new dog, you do a lot of reading and deciding which model you want to feed or a modified version, which many people do.

we don't feed veggies because they don't need them....i'm learning that if a food has to be taken out of its natural state in order for it to be eaten, then it's too far from nature..

i don't puree veggies for me because i am an omnivore...but i would have to puree or alter veggies and fruit in some way for my dogs....and they are carnivores...so altering does not make sense to me...

i feed eggs once a week, along with green tripe with trachea and gullet for the chondroitin contained...i've noticed a big difference with my older girl...not so much with the 3 year old.....

i also feed fresh fish....but that's now..

in starting out, i used chicken and did a step by step, week by week introduction because like all things...dogs and their digestive systems have to adapt to this way of feeding, just as they have to adapt to kibble....although raw is a more natural adaptation....whereas kibble doesn't even look like it did when it was part of a cow...

good luck to you and congrats on the new dog.

ask lots of questions.....this place is invaluable.


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## luvMyBRT (Mar 8, 2010)

Hi and welcome! So nice to have you here. :biggrin:
I'm happy to hear that your looking into a raw diet for your new pup.

My Black Russian Terrier eats a BARF diet due to his condition of Canine Hyperuricosuria. I do know that Bulldogs are a breed also prone to this condition.

Here is a link that explains all about urate bladder stones from The Whole Dog Jounal: 
Treatment and Prevention of Kidney and Bladder Stones - Whole Dog Journal Article

While some dogs who are affected never have any problems, others do. At only 7 months old my BRT was already forming thousands of urate crystals in his urine. Diet plays a HUGE role in the prevention of urate stones if your dog is in fact affected and a stone former.

Is this something that your aware of? There is a DNA test that you can have done to find out if your Bulldog is normal, a carrier, or affected.

Here is the link to where you can order a DNA test kit from UC Davis:
Hyperuricosuria

I'm not wanting to scare you or discourage you, but I feel this is something that is pretty important and could be relevant to the health of your new pup. If I hadn't been made aware of it, by BRT would have ended up in a life threating situation (total blockage due to stones and not being able to pee) and in emergency surgery. 

I am here to help and offer support! :smile:


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## Shamrockmommy (Sep 10, 2009)

Congratulations on your new puppy! One thing I think is very important is to 'listen to your dog' on what she needs. I am by no means an expert... I have fed raw off and on, started with the Volhard diet, which is very very complicated! I've become much more comfortable feeding a natural diet now though... 

I have 2 bichon girls and a 1 yr old Portuguese Water Dog. The bichons do well on PMR with little to no veggies or extra, although, I admit, they do enjoy the taste of their veggies and will often beg for a bite when I am eating salad or crudite. 

My PWD girl NEEDS ground veggies in her diet. If she doesn't have a good amount (about 30%) she will tear up and eat the lawn- grass, roots, dirt- all! Add in ground veggies and some full-fat plain yogurt and the manic grazing stops. So BARF-style works well for her. ALthough I have never liked that acronym, so I just call it feeding a "Natural Diet." 

I am also in the minority... I use a grinder and grind the RMBs (chicken, pork riblets, etc). 2 of my 3 dogs have broken teeth from consuming bones (although I feel the breaking was probably 'helped' along in my ignorance by giving them those cooked store-bought beef bones in past years). Because of the cost of dental work, DH said feed either kibble or grind the bones- so we grind. No big deal. I do sneak the odd chicken wing to them now and again for dental health, but their teeth remain nice and clean even with the rmbs ground. 

I aim for one meal of RMBs and another of meat/organs (2x weekly), veggies, yogurt, egg (not all in one meal, rather I kindof mix n match). Twice weekly they get some organ meat. Recently found some beef sweetbreads at the local grocery, which is good, the dogs loved it! And liver. And I alternate with chicken gizzards/hearts/liver as well. 
They also enjoy a piece of apple, banana, melon, strawberries, etc. 

You will get to know your pup over time. I learned that my PWD, Echo is VERY intolerant of grain. She gets very bad gas and dire-rear to say the least when she gets into grain. My son gave her a pizza crust last night and well... pooper scooping was very gross this morning! 

One book that helped me not be so 'afraid" was _Raw Dog Food_ (amazon has it) although I feed more RMB than they say too- and also the good people on this forum are wonderful help! I admit, I'm more of a lurker but there is a ton of info on the forum, and they helped me get over the fear of not using a dozen supplements- thinking my dogs would spontaniously combust LOL or something if I didn't give them! Now the only supplements I give is fish oil if I haven't fed fish in a while and a sprinkle of kelp. 
This is how I do it, which is different from PMR, but works very well for my girls:
Breakfast meal: 70/30 mixture of ground meat (beef, pork, turkey, venison, etc or fish) to ground veggies, plus the occasional egg, yogurt, tablespoon or so of organ meats. For my 50lb dog, it equals about a cup total of food in her bowl.
Dinner meal: Cup to cup and a half ground rmbs with a sprinkle of kelp.


PMR is much simpler but I have found by listening to my dogs that this way works very well too. What I love about this forum is that there is simplicity in feeding our dogs, not complications, they also are flexible- there's not just one way of feeding and you're kicked off the list. I've learned which RMBs are good and I've also expanded the variety the dogs get too. A very valuable community right here


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## DaneMama (Jun 27, 2008)

Adam76 said:


> Thanks for the help, I read the article you wrote earlier and it was helpful. The bulldog will be 8 weeks old, another question is I see some people use meat grinders to grind up the meat, to me is seems like its a little easier to eat that way but are they any pros or cons to doing that.


Since you're getting a puppy that is 8 weeks that is the perfect time to switch, the earlier on the better. Most of us don't use grinders for our adult dogs but it would come in handy for a puppy switching to raw. Sometimes most young pups have a harder time crunching through even the softest chicken bones. What I suggest people start puppies out on are raw chicken wings with skin removed and smashed to bits with a hammer or kitchen mallet. But if you used a grinder on the chicken wings it would essentially do the same thing as smashing it. Good grinders cost a lot where as a hammer or kitchen mallet will only run you like $5. I'd suggest just using a hammer or kitchen mallet. This is the kind that I have:

kitchen mallet - Google Search


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## Katie Chumlee and Shorty (Oct 22, 2010)

This is the one I have for my Bulldog. He hardly has any molars at 10 months. The Bulldog jaw is not a "typical" jaw. I know another one on another board hers never even grew in so she gets all boneless meat all the time. It can take up to 2 to 3 years for the head to completely develop. 

Amazon.com: "STX TURBOFORCE 1800 WATT" 2.4 HP RATED ELECTRIC MEAT GRINDER - INCLUDES A COMPLETE SET OF SAUSAGE STUFFING TUBES!!!: Kitchen & Dining

I think I paid $150


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## DaneMama (Jun 27, 2008)

Are you getting an english bulldog or an American bulldog? Huge difference in the two breeds....


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## hcdoxies (Sep 22, 2010)

As far as grinding...

I feed my puppies, starting at 5 weeks old, everything ground - pork, chicken, been, turkey, organ and bone. But I have a puppy who just turned 9 weeks old on Wednesday (12/22/10) and he's already eating the whole chicken necks - no smashing with a hammer or grinding. He loves it!

Oh - these are miniature dachshund, by the way... he's 2 lbs, 3 oz!


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## Adam76 (Dec 24, 2010)

Thanks for all the help, it's really helpful, the new puppy is gonna be an english bulldog and I really want to give him the best I can which is why am looking into the raw diet, I just want to make sure that I am including everything into his meals that he needs. I know the next week and a half is gonna fly by till I bring him home and just want to be prepared to make the switch,


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## Adam76 (Dec 24, 2010)

Ok so after reading and reading it seems like a good food to start with is chicken backs if I'm wrong please let me know. It seems like I should give him chicken backs for a couple days to see how hes doing then add some chicken quartes in. So do you think I should grind up the chicken backs to start out them gradually just feed whole? I have no idea what a chicken back looks like but how big are they usually and how much do they weigh on average. I guess I will see how much he weighs then feed him about 10% of his weight over a couple meals a day. Please let me know if this sounds right and if theres anything I'm missing. 
Thanks 
Adam


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## whiteleo (Sep 7, 2008)

For a puppy that age you would start out with chicken wings and use the mallet to crush the bone. You would feed those for a week or so before moving on to heavier chicken meat meals depending on the poo. Good for you for wanting to do the best thing for your dog from the beginning. English bull dogs are so cute and I have one their relatives from way back, the English bull terrier


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## Adam76 (Dec 24, 2010)

So I would start with chicken wings first for a bout a week, then would I want to move onto something like chicken backs or something else. Thanks


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## whiteleo (Sep 7, 2008)

You want to feed what is the appropriate size for the dog and chicken backs would be too big for this puppy, chicken backs are used for the bone content for newly switched dogs to help firm up the poo as most dogs come from kibble to raw. 

Having a puppy that will not be on kibble for long it will be much easier to switch to a raw diet, their digestive juices will adjust much faster also. Wings in this case are used because they have alot of bone to meat ratio and this will help with the transition.

You probably will next go to drumsticks as this has more meat content, but that is for when things are going smoothly and we never want to hurry the process along.


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## Adam76 (Dec 24, 2010)

Ok thanks for the help. So about how long will I feed just chicken wings considering everthing is going smooth. Will I know how its going by looking at the stool. Is it better to just smash the wings with a mallet or grind them up. Sorry for all the questions just want to do everything right.


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## DaneMama (Jun 27, 2008)

I'd base the grinding or smashing depending on your pups ability to chew. He may be a powerhouse chewer regardless of his jaw structure. You will want to feed chicken wings for at least a week or longer depending on his condition.


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## Adam76 (Dec 24, 2010)

So how should I give it to him first so I can figure out how his jaw is? 
Thanks Again


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## whiteleo (Sep 7, 2008)

You will want to give the chicken wing smashed with a mallet a couple times and watch him from a distance and see how he does, if he tries to gulp the food which I doubt, then you will hold the wing so he can learn to chew the wing up.


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## RawFedDogs (Jun 16, 2008)

Adam76 said:


> So how should I give it to him first so I can figure out how his jaw is?
> Thanks Again


If it were my pup, I would try giving him a whole wing first. Smashing may not be necessary. I remember my Thor ate unsmashed backs at 12 weeks. They were the first thing I gave him. Of course weighed 26 lbs. I'm sure your little one will be a good bit smaller. Just hand him a wing and stand back and let him play with it. In about 5 minutes or less you will know whether it will be necessary to smash. I bet it won't be necessary.


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## DaneMama (Jun 27, 2008)

I bet smashing will be necessary for an 8 week old English bulldog. I had to smash chicken wings for both my last great Dane pups switched to raw at 8 weeks. The age/strength difference between 8 and 12 weeks is vast. Maybe by the time your pup is 12 weeks smashing won't be necessary. You can still give him an unsmashed wing and see how it goes....


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## BTDogRaw (Dec 8, 2010)

danemama08 said:


> We feed about 10-15 pounds of meat/bone to our five dogs per day. So one 12 quart container holds one day of meat. We pull it out the night before to thaw, and we feed it the following night (once a day feedings is preferred on a raw diet).


Thanks danemama08! I only have one dog, so I purchased several 6 quart Sterilite containers. 97 cents a piece--woohoo! They hold 3-4 chicken leg quarters for my one dog (about 80 lbs) which is 3-4 days of food for her, depending on the leg quarter size. They stack perfect in our 5 cu ft freezer with room for smaller containers of chicken backs and muscle meat (when we get to the MM stage). Easy to wash them after using and put back in our "prep area" for the next batch. I used 8-9 of them for a 40 lb order of chicken leg quarters. Took me less than an hour to separate, package, label, stack and clean up. So easy and fun!

Amy J-K
&
Bailey T. Dog


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## Adam76 (Dec 24, 2010)

How much of a difference is there between smashing up a chicken wing and grinding it up. How much do I smash it until the bones are broken into little pieces and then do I leave together or cut it up? 
Thanks Again


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## DaneMama (Jun 27, 2008)

Grinding makes everything the consistency of ground meat just with bone fragments but smashing leaves some parts of the bone that need to be crunched. Once a whole wing is smashed up leave it intact and feed it as is. Don't cut it up after smashing. Leaving parts of the bone intact allows your pup to "learn" how to crunch up raw bones.


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## CorgiPaws (Mar 31, 2009)

Adam76 said:


> How much of a difference is there between smashing up a chicken wing and grinding it up. How much do I smash it until the bones are broken into little pieces and then do I leave together or cut it up?
> Thanks Again


I have never smashed anything for my dogs, ever. I know it can help some puppies, mine just never needed it. I switched my Boxer entirely to raw at about 15 weeks old, but prior to that, she was eating the occasional Chicken Drumstick, with zero issues whatsoever. 
I would say smash it as little as possible, to make it edible for your puppy. I really would give one unsmashed, to see where he's at, and just smash it enough that he can eat it. The amount of smashing required with very from dog to dog. I personally like to leave it as "unsmashed" as possible (in the case of every dog I've switched, even including a 5 week old Dane, that means ZERO smashing) because even though it will be more work and take longer, I feel like it teaches them to chew. 
I would not buy a grinder, as it is a very expensive investment, and not necessary at all. A $5 hammer or kitchen mallet will do the job just as good. There is a rather large difference between smashing and grinding. 
If you grind meat, it will entirely pulverize it into mushy meat, rather than whole chunks. By smashing it, you're aiding your puppy in eating the bones, without eliminating the mental stimulation and dental benefits that come along with a raw diet. 



In short: mash as little as possible, while still making it edible for your puppy.


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## Adam76 (Dec 24, 2010)

Thanks for the help should I hold the wing the first time I feed him or just give it to him, just don't want him to try to swallow it whole and choke.


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## CorgiPaws (Mar 31, 2009)

Adam76 said:


> Thanks for the help should I hold the wing the first time I feed him or just give it to him, just don't want him to try to swallow it whole and choke.


dow ahtever is most comfortable for you.
A chicken wing held while chewing is no different nutritionally than one that's not. :wink:


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## Adam76 (Dec 24, 2010)

Ok so we are picking up the puppy tomorrow, he will be 7weeks and a little over 7lbs. So if I figured it out right I should give him around 11ounces spread through 3 meals. I went to the farmers market yesterday and got some wings and a couple necks. Do I still just want to smash the wing up since his 7 and not 8 weeks? Also we are going to the pet store today to get some toys and things, so what are some good treats to give to a raw fed pup. Thanks


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## eternalstudent (Jul 22, 2010)

If he can manage the bones then you don't kneed to smash them up, I have seen 7 week old pups quite happily manage a to get their fill from a rack of lamb ribs (I would not suggest you start on this ever!!!!). For the first one I would put one down on the floor and see what happens. You will know soon enough if you need a hammer . 

I am sure you won't do this but remember never to leave your pup alone when feeding. 

As for treats, I started my pup on cheese (small amounts) hot dogs and dried meats. Just remember small amounts and the smellier the better.


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## jjcj (Nov 26, 2010)

Since i just started to raw i have no information for you but wanted to say that pictures are a must and even better would be pics of the pup eating a wing lol


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## Katie Chumlee and Shorty (Oct 22, 2010)

I would hold off on treats until a week or when his poos are ok. If you want to give him a little something for a reward for business trips/potty breaks you could give him a small piece of raw chicken. You really just don't want to upset his little tummy too much and give him garbage gut.


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## Adam76 (Dec 24, 2010)

Ok thats sounds right, is 11 ounces about right for a 7lb puppy? So how long should I wait to feed him, we will be bringing him home in the early afternoon, so should I try to give him one meal in the evening?


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## Katie Chumlee and Shorty (Oct 22, 2010)

Find out what exactly and how much he was eating and what time he last ate. 7 weeks is so little yet to fast for long periods. I would ask the breeder ahead of time not to feed him in the afternoon if they usually do, then you will be able to feed him his evening meal raw.


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## lmgakg (Jan 1, 2011)

i have a maltese, 10 pounds and 10 years old. He doesn't and has never liked hard toys to chew on, or bones or even crunchy treats. He just takes them and buries them. Unless I sit down with him and break them into very tiny pieces. And he has major allergy issues or anxiety or something because he chews his paws and scoots his bottom on the rug/cement whatever - he currently eats Nutro - that has helped a lot, but still he has issues. I'm kinda concerned to put him through the possibility of tummy upset of switching him to raw, if he needs to eat the bones because I'm not sure that he will. And frankly, I'll be horrified if I find a chicken wing under my pillow (his preferred place to bury unwanted items) it's bad enough to find a milkbone there!


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## tem_sat (Jun 20, 2010)

We have just switched 4 dogs over to raw for the past 3 months, one of which is a 20+ year old Shih Tzu. The Shih Tzu has very few teeth remaining and had no issues (we followed Natalie's instructions to a T) with digestive upset whatsoever and no trouble cracking and chewing pork or chicken. 

Your Maltese is about the same size as my Dachshund. He just had his first raw today which consisted of 2 chicken wings. He had **perfect** stools which were 25% of their former size.


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## luvMyBRT (Mar 8, 2010)

I switched my 11 year old GSH Pointer. She transitioned better than my puppy did! She is doing wonderful and loves her new diet. :smile:


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## lmgakg (Jan 1, 2011)

When you say Natalie's advice, do you mean the Prey Model Raw how to get started website??? I printed that off and read it.


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## luvMyBRT (Mar 8, 2010)

lmgakg said:


> When you say Natalie's advice, do you mean the Prey Model Raw how to get started website??? I printed that off and read it.


Yes, that is Natalie's (danemama08) and Jon's (jdatwood) website. It's full of great info. :smile:


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## lmgakg (Jan 1, 2011)

She seems very knowledgeable from reading her posts today. I am curious to know what made Natalie and others start feeding raw food and how long you have been doing it?


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

lmgakg said:


> She seems very knowledgeable from reading her posts today. I am curious to know what made Natalie and others start feeding raw food and how long you have been doing it?


can't speak for natalie and jon, but for me, it was having four dogs with elevated liver enzymes when they should not have had them....all four dogs died, in my opinion, well before their time...they were fed nutro lamb and rice....hence my absolute hatred for this company....especially when i started to study dog foods in general and could not find one that satisfied me....

it was then i started reading forums and discussions about raw feeding...and still it took almost a year before i finally decided to go raw...i switched to home cooking first...

i also realise there is no ideal situation for food for dogs and humans unless i pick up and buy a farm....so i make the best of a situation that exists for all humans and animals....

we try to buy as close to natural as we can....we belong to a co op...and, whilst our transition was a little bumpy, we had the support of all these wonderful people here....we're almost a year in and my eleven year old corgi mix acts like she is five...and my pug, well.....he's still a pug : )....

but i can't deny what i see. perfectly white teeth, brilliantly shiny black coats....bright eyes, no goopies, no ear infections, no itching except for the first week after grooming when they've had their behinds shaved...no odour...sweet breath....unless they've eaten tripe....playful....a calmer energy from not eating starches and processed foods...

i'm a believer..and i will never ever go back.


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