# Why is the Alpha roll so bad?



## bridget246 (Oct 26, 2011)

I'm curious as to why it gets so much negative attention. My dog kept biting me and sometimes she would get serious about it. I tried water, sprays, yelling, timeout 3 minutes, pinning without the alpha part and attempting to ignore it. None of the above worked at all. Someone told me about the alpha roll so I tried it. I think I've only done it twice 3 weeks ago and haven't had to use it since because it worked and I haven't had a serious problem of aggression since then. 

She still nibbles and sometimes one of her teeth get me in the wrong spot. Today she nibble on my ankle and it hurt. I meant to give her a light push off that turned out to be way too hard even if it was light, poor dog rolled across the floor for awhile. I felt so bad about that and that isn't how I wanted to get my dog to quit biting. Took me almost 30 minutes of plenty of affection and treats for her to calm down around me. She didn't deserve that push. Her bite was a pretty lite one.. it just hit my ankle in the wrong spot and I greatly underestimation my own strength. I don't think the push hurt her because it wasn't hard enough and it wasn't an actually blow. I think it scared her and in doing so I lost a bit of trust that I'll have to now earn back. 

For the most part when she gets into a biting move I'm able to calm her down with my voice. If I tell her to sit she will sit and await my next job for her. If nothing is ready then she will stay for almost 10 minutes for me to get something ready for her to do. Cuddling works too. It didn't use to be that easy to get her to calm down. In fact the biting moods are giving less and less frequent. 

I have never actually seen the alpha roll done. So maybe that isn't what I actually did. But it seems like it. I rolled her on her back and growled and when the angry left in her eye I let her up and gave her a job to do with treats. It happened a second time the same day so I repeated it and again gave her a job with treats afterwords. Since then she hasn't done it all because she actually listens to me when she gets into a biting mood. Sometimes I have to get a little more stern with my voice but she does listen to me.

One of the trainers I took her to only once called my dog a wolf. Said she was way too aggressive at her age of only 3 months. He informed me that there is no way that someone with my experience would actually be able to control that dog. He added that maybe I'd be fine but then pointed at my gf and asked about her. His words still get to me at times. What will happen if the dog decides to take over when I'm not around? It looks as though the storm has passed and we are able to use a lot more positive correction so hopefully that will not be a problem. Still, it bugs me that this trainer claimed to be the best in Ohio and went as far as to say he was the best in the United States. He had tons of awards and even the dog whisper recognize him as being a really good trainer. I never actually seen the dog whisperer. I just don't think of my dog as a wolf. She doesn't act like a wolf, she acts more like a scavenger. I suppose wolves are too but not as much. 

What bugged me more than anything else is how my dog acted at the trainers place. There was another dog there and my dog gets excited when she sees other dogs. But this wasn't excitement. It seemed like hate. I think my dog wanted to kill it. I haven't seen that in her since that day and she has met over 100 other dogs. 

Edit: This thread doesn't really serve much of a purpose anymore. I just read up on the alpha roll is what dogs do to other dogs before they kill them? I guess, I just didn't know how to get through to her and figured it was worth a try. I didn't want her to think I was going to kill her. On the plus sides I've seen nothing but improvements since then. I just have to keep finding more and more jobs for her and avoid pushing her. Before doing the alpha roll she would decide to growl and bite me at the wrong times and her bites were much much harder then and at times she wouldn't let go of me. The pet store gave me a huge discount because of her aggression. My GF said she wanted her so she came home with us. I don't regret my choice. I'll just have to do my part in making sure her raising goes as smoothly as possible.


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## Atila (Oct 15, 2011)

You have a working line GSD if I remember correctly? From my experience a GSD is often a dominant dog. They're smart, devoted to their owners and need a lot of work. I always say that having a smart dog is a two way road. You teach your dog something in a minute,and at the same time he teaches you.

Altough I'm not a big fan of Cesar Millan, his 'rules', boundaries and limitations are something I agree with. I belive dogs need structure and rules to have a happy life. All activities my dog does are aproved by me. At home he is allowed to stay at his place and from there go to his bowls to eat and/or drink. Every other activity not started by me was stopped. If he asks for attention, he is stopped and sent to his place. After some time, when I see that he's completly calm I call him to play. That's some work for him. Being calm when wants to play. Some hard excersise. 
A GSD is not a timid breed, does not thrive at 1/2 h long petting, he thrives doing chores for his owner; be it tricks, obedience, fetching ball or something else. You can pet your dog but at the right time.
At all mentioned above I have not seen a properly timed affection. The dog can get any kind affection when calm and focused on his handler/owner. That is the mental state you want to encourage.
You hit your dog once too hard? So what. Ignore it. She's not gonna remember it if you dont, but if you make a fuss and give her attention (and that's exactly what's she seeking) any time she plays 'you've hurt my feelings' face, then it's her training you and not the other way around.
Training your dog (and with your dog I mean obedience) you will gain your Alpha roll. Alpha is the boss, the one that says you can and you cannot. Alpha does not kill or hurt. Alpha just presents his will in calm way with (if necessary) corrections wich are timed and not done in higtened emotional state. Your Alpha roll is just intimidating your dog into stopping some behavior but not all.
Petting is confirmation of some behavior. Example: your dog barks out of fear at some strange noise, and instead calling your dog TO you(not coming to fetch the dog), giving some command as 'sit' or 'down' and rewarding him, you come to your dog, pet him saying 'calm boy, good boy, dont be afraid' and your dog doesnt hear 'stop barking and be afraid, thats nothing' he gets 'be, be afraid and bark, i praise you for that'.

Having a 'smart' breed is difficult. You have to remember that leash is an extended hand and she can feel your tension trough the leash and act according to it. Even if the leash is not tense, they pick up your feeling so easy it's unbelivabel. I stop or avoid any work with my dog if I'm not 100% concentrated on him. There's no place in your head for worry, job,home chores etc. when working with a dog. One mistake can take a long time to be made right.

About your trainer I have not a single good word. I have worked with various trainers, seen them working with different breeds, personalities of dogs and not one of them would say something as stupid as saying for a GSD to be like a wolf. Your dog is unbalanced because she lacks rules and a job. Be strict, ease on the affection and pull up some discipline in going trough with what you want. There will be years and years of cuddling for you, only if you put thing right now.

You have to remember that she is only 6 months old, a puppy. She needs 4-5 walks a day. Short walks, to doher bussiness and sniff around a bit. Use short walks for establishing your Alpha roll. Change direction, stop suddenly, dont allow her at times to sniff, just go straight. Teach her release command. I use 'you can' said in soft voice as command he can sniff and pee and whatever. Alpha is the leader and the dog needs to FOLLOW Alpha.

It's simple thing to raise a dog. Lot's of work but simple. My suggestion is to make a plan. A real plan, with goals, methods, dates etc. and follow trough and include youre BF so she can install herself as an Alpha to your dog too.


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

atila, 
are you speaking of the alpha roll or the alpha role? they are different.

and to the OP, regardless of what i see on tv, the idea of structure and discipline are necessary, no matter what the size of the dog is.

and when you have more dog than you think you can handle, your dog will know it.

walk your dog.....structured play.....it's all important.

i call it NILIF - nothing in life is free....that's how my dogs are treated....even meal times, they have to stay out of the kitchen until i am ready to let them in. i have some prep to do and i have a towel to lay down....if i let them in, they would jump all over and possibly hurt me or get hurt.

so they are trained to sit at the entry of the kitchen....once i call them in, they have to sit before they are served. 

these are happy dogs who are lying on the couch with me right now...it is what i want, not what they think is their right.


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## Atila (Oct 15, 2011)

magicre said:


> atila,
> are you speaking of the alpha roll or the alpha role? they are different.
> 
> and to the OP, regardless of what i see on tv, the idea of structure and discipline are necessary, no matter what the size of the dog is.
> ...


You are right, i missread thread's title and was thinking about aplha role not alpha roll. About alpha roll - I'm completly against doing as I shortly wrote above. It's an abusive way of trying to be dominant over your dog. Forcing your dog into submissive postion is creating fear not respect and/or follower.
Since my dog is dominant and male agressive I have observed his reaction in cases when he forced the dog to roll and when the dog rolled himself. (please make note that my dog is muzzled around other dogs and that in each case i stepped in and removed him - just to be clear that I do not initiate and observe dog fights) In first case he would continue the attack, as if he had no respect for a dog thats so weak he can overthrow him. In second case, he would position himself and then just walk away after few seconds with no problems going with that dog again. First case dog he repetedly tried to attack again. The second dog is a happy little bratt of dog, not scared but greeting my dog with due respect after which he goes off running and fooling around.

P.S. I have at times used my 'alpha roll' and that was to give Atila 'dead' command or slightly push him into that position after lying down and than just stand next to him till he got calmed and release him. The total 'punishement' never lasted more than a minute and I belive that is as long as it shoul be, since dogs dont percive time as we do.
This position can serve as alpha roll and is much less abusive than the real thing.


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## GoingPostal (Sep 5, 2011)

bridget246 said:


> What will happen if the dog decides to take over when I'm not around?


Maybe she'll pay the bills? Seriously, your dog is not plotting to take over, it's a nippy puppy and you said this was a pet store dog? So you have no socialization or proper inhibition as well. I would recommend you get a few books, like the The Culture Clash, maybe Ian Dunbars After you get your Puppy, etc, so you have a better idea how to teach bite inhibition and how dogs actually learn and work. Dogs do not physically throw each other on the ground, and you aren't a dog anyways and now all you've done is make your dog fear you and changed up yet again how you are dealing with her nipping.


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## DaViking (Sep 27, 2011)

magicre said:


> atila,
> are you speaking of the alpha roll or the alpha role? they are different.


There is no such thing as the "Alpha roll" There is the "I am submissive and will show that by rolling over on my back, rendering myself defenseless roll" It's programmed communication from the puppy stage. Now, you can force a smaller dog over on its back, leaning over the dog in a threatening way even. It's extreme communication and all kinds of diversion tactics should be used before you arrive at this. In fact there shouldn't be any reason for things to go this far. If you try this with a bigger working dog there is no roll what-so-ever involved, it's a plain show of brute force. You are telling the dog "hey, I am still here and packing a pretty good punch, not ready to keel over and hand over leadership to you" If the dog does not accept it you are up shit creek. If he or she accept it (calms down) it's more likely it was because the dog got perplexed, you really didn't solve that much.


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## maplewood (Apr 14, 2011)

bridget246 said:


> The pet store gave me a huge discount because of her aggression. My GF said she wanted her so she came home with us. I don't regret my choice. I'll just have to do my part in making sure her raising goes as smoothly as possible.


All of your posts make so much more sense now.


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

DaViking said:


> There is no such thing as the "Alpha roll" There is the "I am submissive and will show that by rolling over on my back, rendering myself defenseless roll" It's programmed communication from the puppy stage. Now, you can force a smaller dog over on its back, leaning over the dog in a threatening way even. It's extreme communication and all kinds of diversion tactics should be used before you arrive at this. In fact there shouldn't be any reason for things to go this far. If you try this with a bigger working dog there is no roll what-so-ever involved, it's a plain show of brute force. You are telling the dog "hey, I am still here and packing a pretty good punch, not ready to keel over and hand over leadership to you" If the dog does not accept it you are up shit creek. If he or she accept it (calms down) it's more likely it was because the dog got perplexed, you really didn't solve that much.


i don't know if there is or is not an alpha roll...but the term was made popular by cesar millan...so it is used.


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## cprcheetah (Jul 14, 2010)

This is one of the best links I have found on the subject: Dog Psychology Here is a quote taken from the page "Alpha roll or omega roll? Closer observations of wolves over the last 40 years have shown that this infamous behavior is an act of submission, not dominance. A wolf voluntarily rolls on its back in a subordinate display. No contact is made, thus avoiding dangerous physical conflict."


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## Maxy24 (Mar 5, 2011)

An alpha rolls works in the same way as any physical punishment, the dog finds it very frightening to have his owner suddenly attack him and hold him in a very vulnerable position (I've seen dogs urinate on themselves they are so frightened) and so wants to avoid the behavior that caused you to attack her. In your dog's case the alpha roll was scarier than any of the other punishments you had used. I highly dislike this type of training as I do not think fear or pain is needed to train out most if not all behaviors (pain is never needed, I can see using mild fear (booby traps type things) for something like counter surfing). If you want more help with your dog's specific behavior I'd start another thread in the training section asking about that specifically. If it is just puppy biting I would follow the normal yell ouch when you get bit, immediately leave the room and ignore the dog for a minute or so, then redirect the dog to a toy so she understands that she should take out her playful nippy urges on toys instead. Reward heavily with play if she chooses to use the toy. Also learn to anticipate when she is in a biting mood and direct her to her toys BEFORE any biting starts, that is the ideal way to do it as you never have to worry about accidentally rewarding her, you are simply teaching her to channel her urges appropriately. 


As to whether or not dogs actually roll each other, I've heard a few people say their dogs actually will but generally dogs roll themselves over when another dog threatens them and they don't want to fight back. But I don't really care either way, I'm not a dog and I can solve problems without using physical punishment, so why would I choose to do that to him?

There is also the fact that the alpha roll can be dangerous in a number of ways. One is that causing a great amount of fear can cause the dog to defend himself and bite. It can also make the dog somewhat paranoid, especially if you tend to use the method frequently and not just for the one behavior. What I mean by paranoid is if the dog is doing something and you seem to get upset and approach him, he may jump to conclusions and think you are coming to alpha roll him and become aggressive before you even lay a hand on him. Obviously whether or not your dog acts this way depends on the dog's personality and how often you use the punishment. But it is not unlikely the dog will start to become aggressive earlier in an attempt to avoid being rolled. Unfortunately that could turn a dog who had a playful nipping problem into a dog who needs to be euthanized for his aggression problem.
It is also dangerous if you use it for actual aggression (dog who barks at other dogs/strangers, who acts aggressive towards dogs/people). This is because when you use punishment on these dogs you are not changing how they feel, you are suppressing the BEHAVIOR only. The dog is still fearful of the dog/person and wants them to get away from him but he does not "tell" anyone because that gets him rolled. so he keeps his mouth shut and everyone assumes he's perfectly friendly and smother him with attention and eventually someone will take it to the point where the fear of you rolling him is nothing compared to how scared he is of the dog/person and get mauls them "with no warning". He didn't warn because that got him punished. But at some point the fear of punishment is not enough for him to hold back his feelings. That's why changing those feelings is much safer and also kinder to the dog.

That's my rant lol, hope it made some sense and you can get something useful out of it.


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## DaViking (Sep 27, 2011)

Maxy24 said:


> the dog finds it very frightening to have his owner suddenly attack him and hold him in a very vulnerable position (I've seen dogs urinate on themselves they are so frightened) and so wants to avoid the behavior that caused you to attack her.


Right there is the indication that the action was way overkill for the situation. A dog so frightened that he or she urinate (controlled or involuntary doesn't matter) themselves would have started a submissive roll themselves if given proper signals of disapproval over whatever the dog did. Or, no roll at all, once good communication between owner and puppy is established they will understand more than most give them credit for.

Cliff notes; Dogs who respond have no need for this brute force in the first place. For dogs who doesn't respond to this force you will do more harm than good.



Maxy24; said:


> That's my rant lol, hope it made some sense and you can get something useful out of it.


Good rant.


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## RachelsaurusRexU (Sep 4, 2010)

I think alpha rolls are great if you want to gain total distrust from your dog and tarnish the relationship you have, or get bit in the face. 

Why would a pet store be selling working line GSDs? How did you come across that info?


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## bridget246 (Oct 26, 2011)

RachelsaurusRexU said:


> I think alpha rolls are great if you want to gain total distrust from your dog and tarnish the relationship you have, or get bit in the face.
> 
> Why would a pet store be selling working line GSDs? How did you come across that info?


I really don't know. I thought all GSDs were the same. A few trainers have told me she was definitely a working class GSD. I haven't needed it to do it since so I suppose it has served it's purpose and I didn't lose my trust. We will see how class goes for the coming weeks.


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## xchairity_casex (Oct 8, 2011)

please dont ever suggest to others to use the alpha roll its very dangerous just becuase you had good luck with it doesnt mean others will its rare for a person to have good results from it its much much more commen that the dog will become fearful,excited,or lash out. im glad its worked for you so far but please dont ever reccomend this method to to other people


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## doggiedad (Jan 23, 2011)

alpha roll is a term that was around way before Cesar.



magicre said:


> i don't know if there is or is not an alpha roll...but the term was made popular by cesar millan...so it is used.


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## bridget246 (Oct 26, 2011)

xchairity_casex said:


> please dont ever suggest to others to use the alpha roll its very dangerous just becuase you had good luck with it doesnt mean others will its rare for a person to have good results from it its much much more commen that the dog will become fearful,excited,or lash out. im glad its worked for you so far but please dont ever reccomend this method to to other people


Thank you for your kind advice and suggestions. As I stated before, this alpha roll was suggested to me. It wasn't given the name of the Alpha Roll. Just how to do it and nothing more. No warnings about any negative side affects or anything more than how to do it and what the positive result of doing it might be. However, I've now been thoroughly educated on the negative side of taking such actions both here and on the internet. Though, you guys do a far better job of explaining things than I managed to pull up from a random search. 

As for recommending it. I can't promise I wouldn't. However, I could promise that I would at least give them a proper warning and lots of other things they could and should try first. If they ask around enough it will get recommend to them. Lots of big people in the dog community use it. It is fact that they will find it if they are looking for it. It just makes me a little disappointed that these same big community people don't give out the warnings that go along with it. Only real warning that was giving to me is not to do it wrong. Seemed like they were more worried about me than the dog. 

To be honest I'm leaning more towards not recommending it. I've had plenty of grappling experience and understand the dangerous well enough. I would hate to see the result of someone attempting to do something like this incorrectly. This goes for both them and the dog. Getting the dog more training might be the best recommendation. Though... I did take that advice myself and that is what lead me there. I'm going all over the place in this post. Despite the knowledge and my own personal success I don't think I could or want to live with the result of something I recommended putting them in a far worse situation than the came in. That seems like it would be for the best. My post started off so different than it ended.


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## Tobi (Mar 18, 2011)

xchairity_casex said:


> please dont ever suggest to others to use the alpha roll its very dangerous just becuase you had good luck with it doesnt mean others will its rare for a person to have good results from it its much much more commen that the dog will become fearful,excited,or lash out. im glad its worked for you so far but please dont ever reccomend this method to to other people


Most positive punishment methods will result in responses that are undesired over the course of a long period of time, that is why they are frowned upon. That includes leash jerking, shouting, alpha rolls etc. One is just as bad as the other, and they generally lead in the same direction. :wink:


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## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

if i did something to my dog that made him pee, yikes. That's pretty wild. 

I tried to roll Rebel over, not some kind of alpha roll but I never had a dog before that wouldn't let me scratch his tummy and they all let me roll them over. I never knew it was some kind of dominance thing and I'm still not sure I believe it if both parties are getting something good out of it.

If I put my hand on Snorkels side when she is laying down already, she flops right over on her back.

Rebel was not happy and i think actually a little panicky. I would not relish the thought of trying to force him to do that. So I guess he will never get a real good tummy scratch.


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## xchairity_casex (Oct 8, 2011)

i dont see anything wrong with teaching a dog to lie down or roll over for a scratching or rubbing. my sisters toy poodle was like that she refused to roll onto her back she was nervous about it but thats the only good way im able to trim her nails since i freak out about trimming dogs nails and like to be able to see very clearly right up to my face so for a few weeks i would gently roll her over and just rub her and whisper to her and be very gentle with her if she struggled i would let her get up and walk away so she learnd that she only got the love when on her back took her a few weeks of doing this but now if i roll her over shes jsut fine with it. but i only did this becuase like i said when i trim her nails i want them to be right near my face when i cut them plus i think if your dog is fearful of somthing like being handled like that its a good thing to show them that its not awful and working with them on it becuase someday they may need to have there undersides examined by the vet and you dont want them lashing out or being frightened about it.


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

doggiedad said:


> alpha roll is a term that was around way before Cesar.


i have no doubt. i think he made the term popular for the masses, that's all i was saying. 

carry on.


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## xchairity_casex (Oct 8, 2011)

Tobi said:


> Most positive punishment methods will result in responses that are undesired over the course of a long period of time, that is why they are frowned upon. That includes leash jerking, shouting, alpha rolls etc. One is just as bad as the other, and they generally lead in the same direction. :wink:


sorry just noticed
which is why whenever i try to answer someones question (what should i do?)
i always try to say "this is just my opinion this is just what i would do if you dont feel comfortable with doing this dont maybe someone else has a method you would feel more comfortable with" and most of the time i try to give them an alternative useing just posative reinforcment or distraction.

i know not every approach works for every dog for every situation and i also know that not every person is capable of doing what i do in the way i do it im naturally an assertive person i think that has alot to do with the reson why i only need to use minimal corrections im patient and assertive. while other people who might try leash jerks get frustrated and end up with a bad result like making the dog more anxious or fearful or escalating the behavior. i also know that lead jerks dont work for everydog most dogs dont need them if i had tried doing this with my sisters toy poodle it would have ended badly i know this.


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## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

xchairity_casex said:


> i dont see anything wrong with teaching a dog to lie down or roll over for a scratching or rubbing. my sisters toy poodle was like that she refused to roll onto her back she was nervous about it but thats the only good way im able to trim her nails since i freak out about trimming dogs nails and like to be able to see very clearly right up to my face so for a few weeks i would gently roll her over and just rub her and whisper to her and be very gentle with her if she struggled i would let her get up and walk away so she learnd that she only got the love when on her back took her a few weeks of doing this but now if i roll her over shes jsut fine with it. but i only did this becuase like i said when i trim her nails i want them to be right near my face when i cut them plus i think if your dog is fearful of somthing like being handled like that its a good thing to show them that its not awful and working with them on it becuase someday they may need to have there undersides examined by the vet and you dont want them lashing out or being frightened about it.


Nah - he lays perfect on his side for nail trimming. He will stand or lay on his side just fine and the vet has never had trouble giving him an exam - she says he is her best patient. Maybe she says that to all the dogs!! i see no reason to make him flip over completely on his back for anything. 

The only time he might need it is if he needs to lay on his back for an x-ray, and they vet said they normally give them the mild sedation for that procedure.

He's only showing reluctance to do two things now- get in the bathtub and flip over onto his back. I hope we can go through life without needing to do either one. 

I've worked with him so much on stress-related issues that these two seem minor compared to stuff we work on that I think is important.

Maybe when i am in a better mood, I'll try it. I'm sure it wouldn't hurt for him to do that willingly.


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## RCTRIPLEFRESH5 (Feb 11, 2010)

bridget246 said:


> I'm curious as to why it gets so much negative attention. My dog kept biting me and sometimes she would get serious about it. I tried water, sprays, yelling, timeout 3 minutes, pinning without the alpha part and attempting to ignore it. None of the above worked at all. Someone told me about the alpha roll so I tried it. I think I've only done it twice 3 weeks ago and haven't had to use it since because it worked and I haven't had a serious problem of aggression since then.
> 
> She still nibbles and sometimes one of her teeth get me in the wrong spot. Today she nibble on my ankle and it hurt. I meant to give her a light push off that turned out to be way too hard even if it was light, poor dog rolled across the floor for awhile. I felt so bad about that and that isn't how I wanted to get my dog to quit biting. Took me almost 30 minutes of plenty of affection and treats for her to calm down around me. She didn't deserve that push. Her bite was a pretty lite one.. it just hit my ankle in the wrong spot and I greatly underestimation my own strength. I don't think the push hurt her because it wasn't hard enough and it wasn't an actually blow. I think it scared her and in doing so I lost a bit of trust that I'll have to now earn back.
> 
> ...


Aww IDK if i could own a truly difficult dog breed haha. It sounds like you did what you needed with your alpha roll technique, but I still feel bad for the dog and like you're an evil person(not really haha but you now what i mean lol)....sometimes I felt bad at the craziest things haha. I was watching a youtube video of a rottweiler behind a glass door guarding against the owner's fiend, and i felt bad for the rottie because he wasn't scaring the friend away lol.


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## Maxy24 (Mar 5, 2011)

Alpha rolling and teaching a dog to lie on his back for something are different things (well you could make them the same thing but you don't have to). Tucker regularly asks to be flipped over for his massage lol. This is something we started doing when we got him and he now understands that being on his back is how he gets his massage. So he'll come up to you on the couch, get in the crook of your arm, go up on his back legs and try to fall over backwards, he's not very good at that lol. So then we know he'd like to be flipped and petted. I also trained him to lie on his back in my lap for nail trimming, I used lots of cheese to teach him stay there and lots more cheese to teach him to be okay with the trimming. Neither of those things cause fear or are intended to cause fear, an alpha roll on the other hand would not work without the fear.


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## leilaquinn (Sep 7, 2011)

A dog happily rolling onto it's back and enjoying attention, and even enjoying showing you that they feel like a submissive puppy with you, looks totally different than a stressed dog trying to appease their owner who is disapointed in them, and it looks just as different when a dog trying to stand up for it self, often almost panicing, is FORCED into such a vulnerable position. My pup is very in your face affectionate, we are working on his pushiness, I wouldn't call him dominant or submissive, he's just a big happy doufus who accidentally causes bruises in his exuberance but has zero aggression toward any one. if he realizes he is annoying you seriously, he will roll over and get extra cute. If any one tries to roll him over he happily goes along with it, he would get into any position if it means attention and petting. he has no reason to fear being on his back because i've never let anyone try to scare him in that position.


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## committed2excellence (May 2, 2011)

My .02 on the thread. One of the reasons to deal with a reputable breeder if you are going to buy a dog or a reputable shelter or rescue group if you plan to adopt a dog is that hopefully they will stand behind the dog for its whole life. Let's be honest, uncovering a dog's personality is NOT rocket science. An 8 week old puppy from weeks 8-12 is NOT going to change. Sure, he will mature but his outward and inward being will not. It's up to you as a responsible owner to toss the ego aside and decide if you can handle this for the next 10 or more years. If you can't, take the dog back. Don't get me wrong, as one who trains dogs I see a lot of different cases and I have helped people to coexist more positively with their 4 legged friends. However, in many cases the dog is just too much for the owner. Nothing against television dog trainers, but when the average individual finds it necessary to invoke their names at every turn, IT"S PROBABLY TIME TO GET A NEW DOG. If you have the personality where you begin to obsess about how you dominate or correct your dog, IT'S TIME TO GET A NEW DOG. Harder dogs are for a select few who understand them. We understand them in that we "know when to hold em" and "know when to fold em". There is not merit badge to be given for dominating a puppy if you are over 5 ft tall. No click and reward for you. Get a nice golden retriever who will please you all day long. The 14 month old puppy that you see me posting about, the one with the 11 titles; his nickname for the first several months of his life was Boogieman bin laden. He was just that, a terrorist. He was a very happy puppy and phenomenal at an early age with his work but he was also a deceptively hard little dog. I remember my ex wife calling me one day to say that she let him out of his crate and went to pet him and he bit her in the stomach. She literally cried, but unfortunately or fortunately depending on which end you were on, I had given specific instructions regarding the rearing of a working/companion puppy. No hard corrections and no invoking Caesar Milan or the "It's me or the dog lady". Put him up and I will deal with the problem when I get home were my instructions. Through my training and my understanding of dog psychology which I learned from some of the true masters of the craft(they aren't televised), I have shaped this same puppy into a dog whose name will ring out all of his life for his accomplishments and achievements. I didn't have to body slam him or flip him over and I PROMISE you that he is harder than most you will encounter and has balanced drives and nerve to the core. Parlor tricks and smoke and mirrors will not work on these dogs. They will only provide a crutch which will eventually splinter. You must establish yourself as God and trust must be built and maintained. Everything that is paramount to his survival must come from YOU and this dog must know it. Do you put a bowl of food down in his crate every day? Nope. You feed from your hand. Do you leave water down 24/7? Nope, unless you have an outside dog in an exceedingly hot place, you present water at proper intervals. Toys, food, affection, etc are all divied out at your whim. ALL ROAD MUST COME THROUGH ME. I don't have to lay my hands on my dogs other than in play and I surely don't get to body slamming them in an effort to gain their respect. LOL. Honestly, if you correct a really hard dog in such a way, you might get nailed. I've seen it happen. For most, at that point, it's time to put the dog down. However, it wasn't the dog's fault that you overstepped. It was yours. Once you have established yourself as God to the dog and he has matured a bit, you SHOULD have a life long companion who will not hesitate to do anything for you. Yes, at first the respect may come out of necessity. Unless you are just a loser with a poor personality, the respect will usually translate to love and loyalty. Of course you play with your dog and love on your dog. You just do it on your terms. To wrap it up, crux of the matter is again, certain people don't need to own certain dogs. Stay in your lane and know your role within the paradigm of dog ownership. Find an animal that matches you and whatever you do, don't force the relationship. If you find yourself early on in a situation that you know deep down you won't be able to handle, set your pride aside and do what is best for the dog. No need to live 10 plus years in misery, you or the dog and please don't believe everything that you see on tv. Moreover, don't believe that because you can execute what you see on tv that you are now capable of handling a dog with more stones than you. That is all and Happy Thanksgiving. P.S., feel free to send those tough out of control dogs down to Texas. We will make champions out of em.


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## DaViking (Sep 27, 2011)

committed2excellence said:


> My .02 on the thread. One of the reasons to deal with a reputable breeder if you are going to buy a dog or a reputable shelter or rescue group if you plan to adopt a dog is that hopefully they will stand behind the dog for its whole life. Let's be honest, uncovering a dog's personality is NOT rocket science. An 8 week old puppy from weeks 8-12 is NOT going to change. Sure, he will mature but his outward and inward being will not. It's up to you as a responsible owner to toss the ego aside and decide if you can handle this for the next 10 or more years. If you can't, take the dog back. Don't get me wrong, as one who trains dogs I see a lot of different cases and I have helped people to coexist more positively with their 4 legged friends. However, in many cases the dog is just too much for the owner. Nothing against television dog trainers, but when the average individual finds it necessary to invoke their names at every turn, IT"S PROBABLY TIME TO GET A NEW DOG. If you have the personality where you begin to obsess about how you dominate or correct your dog, IT'S TIME TO GET A NEW DOG. Harder dogs are for a select few who understand them. We understand them in that we "know when to hold em" and "know when to fold em". There is not merit badge to be given for dominating a puppy if you are over 5 ft tall. No click and reward for you. Get a nice golden retriever who will please you all day long. The 14 month old puppy that you see me posting about, the one with the 11 titles; his nickname for the first several months of his life was Boogieman bin laden. He was just that, a terrorist. He was a very happy puppy and phenomenal at an early age with his work but he was also a deceptively hard little dog. I remember my ex wife calling me one day to say that she let him out of his crate and went to pet him and he bit her in the stomach. She literally cried, but unfortunately or fortunately depending on which end you were on, I had given specific instructions regarding the rearing of a working/companion puppy. No hard corrections and no invoking Caesar Milan or the "It's me or the dog lady". Put him up and I will deal with the problem when I get home were my instructions. Through my training and my understanding of dog psychology which I learned from some of the true masters of the craft(they aren't televised), I have shaped this same puppy into a dog whose name will ring out all of his life for his accomplishments and achievements. I didn't have to body slam him or flip him over and I PROMISE you that he is harder than most you will encounter and has balanced drives and nerve to the core. Parlor tricks and smoke and mirrors will not work on these dogs. They will only provide a crutch which will eventually splinter. You must establish yourself as God and trust must be built and maintained. Everything that is paramount to his survival must come from YOU and this dog must know it. Do you put a bowl of food down in his crate every day? Nope. You feed from your hand. Do you leave water down 24/7? Nope, unless you have an outside dog in an exceedingly hot place, you present water at proper intervals. Toys, food, affection, etc are all divied out at your whim. ALL ROAD MUST COME THROUGH ME. I don't have to lay my hands on my dogs other than in play and I surely don't get to body slamming them in an effort to gain their respect. LOL. Honestly, if you correct a really hard dog in such a way, you might get nailed. I've seen it happen. For most, at that point, it's time to put the dog down. However, it wasn't the dog's fault that you overstepped. It was yours. Once you have established yourself as God to the dog and he has matured a bit, you SHOULD have a life long companion who will not hesitate to do anything for you. Yes, at first the respect may come out of necessity. Unless you are just a loser with a poor personality, the respect will usually translate to love and loyalty. Of course you play with your dog and love on your dog. You just do it on your terms. To wrap it up, crux of the matter is again, certain people don't need to own certain dogs. Stay in your lane and know your role within the paradigm of dog ownership. Find an animal that matches you and whatever you do, don't force the relationship. If you find yourself early on in a situation that you know deep down you won't be able to handle, set your pride aside and do what is best for the dog. No need to live 10 plus years in misery, you or the dog and please don't believe everything that you see on tv. Moreover, don't believe that because you can execute what you see on tv that you are now capable of handling a dog with more stones than you. That is all and Happy Thanksgiving. P.S., feel free to send those tough out of control dogs down to Texas. We will make champions out of em.


Lot's of good advice there, not gonna comment on all of it but I agree with the core of it. However, I will comment on this. 
Quote, 

"We understand them in that we "know when to hold em" and "know when to fold em". There is not merit badge to be given for dominating a puppy if you are over 5 ft tall"

This is important knowledge for everyone, and extremely important if you are training a mentally tough dog. If your ego doesn't have the ability to "fold 'em" and come back to win another day you will most likely ruin everything. And size doesn't have anything to do with it either, doesn't matter if it is a tiny terrier or a huge herding dog.


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## Dude and Bucks Mamma (May 14, 2011)

Pet store puppy... They have no social skills. A lot of people who buy pet store puppies experience this. Buck was nippy when we brought him home from his breeder but it is a typical puppy thing. Some puppies are more nippy than others. From what I read from you, I just think that you need to keep up on your pup and find a trainer or two that you trust. 

I think we, as humans, need to be the "Alpha dogs" in the home. Definitely. Just like with kids. In every group, there needs to be someone in charge. Things fall apart if there is no leadership. But we need to be fair leaders. Some people with their dogs are just brutal. They are way too dominant. I don't really know how to explain what I think. There has to be a leader but it needs to be a fair, understanding leadership. Does that make sense? Sorry. Hahaha


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## committed2excellence (May 2, 2011)

Makes perfect sense. Where people go terribly wrong is when they start talking about "in the wild" and "dogs do this or that with each other." You can only take those methods so far because as I said, the neophyte dog owner pins a dog down or slams a dog and then when the dog retaliates and breaks the skin they want to put the dog down. Don't put yourself in the situation is my advice.



Dude and Bucks Mamma said:


> Pet store puppy... They have no social skills. A lot of people who buy pet store puppies experience this. Buck was nippy when we brought him home from his breeder but it is a typical puppy thing. Some puppies are more nippy than others. From what I read from you, I just think that you need to keep up on your pup and find a trainer or two that you trust.
> 
> I think we, as humans, need to be the "Alpha dogs" in the home. Definitely. Just like with kids. In every group, there needs to be someone in charge. Things fall apart if there is no leadership. But we need to be fair leaders. Some people with their dogs are just brutal. They are way too dominant. I don't really know how to explain what I think. There has to be a leader but it needs to be a fair, understanding leadership. Does that make sense? Sorry. Hahaha


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## xchairity_casex (Oct 8, 2011)

> Makes perfect sense. Where people go terribly wrong is when they start talking about "in the wild" and "dogs do this or that with each other." You can only take those methods so far because as I said, the neophyte dog owner pins a dog down or slams a dog and then when the dog retaliates and breaks the skin they want to put the dog down. Don't put yourself in the situation is my advice.


i agree there is really no need for such harsh corrections ive heard from sooo many Cesar millan followers who are like OBSESSED with dominating there dogs! more often then not dogs who dont even need it!
Yes i like Cesar Millan and Yes i do use a bit of his ideas/methods what i DONT do is follow him blindly. im sure i come off as being incredably firm becuase of the things i ask of my dog but all i ever ask of him is to listen to me when i give a command the first time for safetys sake if i say "come" he HAS to come no if ands or buts about it i dont let it slide i cant one day he may snap his lead or his collar or somthing and if we are walking along a road and he doesnt come when i ask the first time he could be killed! when we are out off lead and he sees another dog and tell him to leave that dog alone i mean leave it alone ignore it if he doesnt lsiten the first time and goes running up to that dog he could get attacked so its very important he listen to me. when he has a toy that hes going nuts over he needs to give it up when i ask so me or somone else like a child doesnt accedentally get bitten when he sees it move.

my belief if you have to use more then 5 corrections at one time (in sucsession) your not doing it right stop put a leash on your dog and walk away from the situation and rethink your approach and/or your own mood at the time.


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## committed2excellence (May 2, 2011)

I like that. Bigtime



xchairity_casex said:


> i agree there is really no need for such harsh corrections ive heard from sooo many Cesar millan followers who are like OBSESSED with dominating there dogs! more often then not dogs who dont even need it!
> Yes i like Cesar Millan and Yes i do use a bit of his ideas/methods what i DONT do is follow him blindly. im sure i come off as being incredably firm becuase of the things i ask of my dog but all i ever ask of him is to listen to me when i give a command the first time for safetys sake if i say "come" he HAS to come no if ands or buts about it i dont let it slide i cant one day he may snap his lead or his collar or somthing and if we are walking along a road and he doesnt come when i ask the first time he could be killed! when we are out off lead and he sees another dog and tell him to leave that dog alone i mean leave it alone ignore it if he doesnt lsiten the first time and goes running up to that dog he could get attacked so its very important he listen to me. when he has a toy that hes going nuts over he needs to give it up when i ask so me or somone else like a child doesnt accedentally get bitten when he sees it move.
> 
> my belief if you have to use more then 5 corrections at one time (in sucsession) your not doing it right stop put a leash on your dog and walk away from the situation and rethink your approach and/or your own mood at the time.


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