# Interested in starting to feed raw



## Freemare

Hi so I am trying to get some more information, about feeding raw dog food. I am kind of a dog food guru myself however I am still unsure about feeding raw. I know there is a lot of people that do it and have successfully done it without any issues. But my concern is about the cost and the bacteria that could be involved in the raw meat. I do have a family member in the house with some health issues and because of this I am worried about having Bacteriain the house that could contaminate the area and she could possibly get sick and die because of her health issues. I am not sure what the overall cost would be in terms of feeding raw. I have a 47 pound Australian Shepherd who is fairly active during the summer and spring months. We do agility and lots of hiking outdoor sports trick training and so forth so I know when she is on her kibble now which I rotate from several different very high-quality grain free brands in my area she is able to keep her weight on relatively easy. So what is the general cost that you guys spend per month on your Raw food and is there a way to make sure that your dog is getting a balanced meal, I have heard of several people making their own food but I am on sure if they are balanced and have enough vitamins and minerals that the dog should need


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## naturalfeddogs

Welcome to DFC! First of all, as far as bacteria is concerned, you should just use common sense, and clean contact surfaces and your hands just as you would preparing meat to cook for yourself. And FYI, kibble also has bacteria.

You can give the dog a set place to eat, like a crate, or a towel on the floor. I personally have all tile floors, so I just mop after. 

As as far as getting enough nutrition, that comes from feeding a variety of different meat, bones and organs over time. Those three things provide all the nutrients a dog needs.

Cost varies, according to your area and what you have access to. During deer season, look for processors. You can get hundreds of pounds of deer scraps for free because it's illegal to sell them. Tell friends and family, and they can give you older meat out of the freezer they would throw out. Just yesterday we had a neighbor bring us a whole wild turkey, and pork fat back. Look for meats on sale at the grocery. And there are raw feeding websites you can order from. I just got an order about three weeks ago from http://rawfeedingmiami.com. 
Be resourcful, and just hunt around your area for different sources. Do keep in mind though, you will be starting slow, one protein at a time for a few weeks. Once fully transitioned, you will be able to feed all the different proteins you can.


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## OldGnarlHead

On the bacteria note, I will refer you to this page Myths About Raw: Will the bacteria in raw meat hurt my dog? . Check out that whole myths page, it is amazing and well cited. Dogs are supremely well equipped to handle the bacteria that may be in the meat. To be honest, meat is pretty sterile as long as it isn't ground. We are led to believe that meat is teeming with bacteria, but it's really not. We use white vinegar to wipe everything down when we're done and neither of us have had any problems. We have our dog eat on a towel since she likes pulling everything out of her bowl to eat. 

On the cost issue, we have found that it is usually comparable, if not cheaper to feeding high-quality kibble, especially when you buy meat on sale. We have a deep freeze especially for her meat so we can stock up on stuff when we need to. I would estimate that our monthly cost is maybe $60-$80 a month. We will usually go out and buy a lot of meat about once every two or three months and then just stick it in the freezer for when we need it. 

On the balanced diet note, it's actually really easy. Just feed your dog a minimum of four different proteins (the 'standard' is chicken, turkey, pork, and beef) and as many parts of those animals as you can, and your dog will have a balanced diet. Variety is key! At the moment here, we are feeding chicken, turkey, duck, smelt, pork, beef, and a little venison and lamb. Just remember that dogs in the wild don't sit there with a nutrient index and figure out what they need to eat to get a balanced meal. And to put it in perspective, you have probably never eaten a 'balanced meal' either. The key is balance over time.


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## OtherGuy

As to cost, it is highly variable. 

A commercial pre-mix costs a fortune. Those who get free cows and deer meat can do it for a song. I'm in the middle. All my items are purchased either at local markets (especially a wonderful supermarket that caters to an "ethnic" customer base, or a speciality raw buther that delivers to my area.

For my very active 60 lb Vizsla, I usually spend less than $60 a month. I shop well. I think I'd spend more on a so-called premium kibble.

As to bacteria infecting others, expecially those with compromised immune systems, basic food-safely is critical. And as Jenny said, kibble is also a potential source of infection, and many people get sick every year not observing food-safty precautions with commercial dog food.

A couple things I do that may help you. In addition to cleaning up food prep areas really well with hot soapy water, I will spray down surfaces with equal amounts of hydrogen peroxide (3%) and white vinegar from seperate bottles. Peroxide needs to be kept in the original brown (lightproof) bottles, but these take a standard spray top. The combination is an extremely effective germ killer.

I like to break down items to fit into either snack sized zip locks or larger (when necessary) and then put the portions in a larger zip lock and freeze. For meals I pull meat, bone-in, and organ pieces from the freezer to closely approximate the 80/10/10 model. I don't thaw, which is not only more convienient, but I think it is the thawing stage that is most risky for spreading bacterial to humans accidently.

By following the "prey model," feeding a diversity of proteins, and including organs and soft-edible bone you will get all the necessary nutrients and be on target for mineral balances. Many suppliment with fish-oil or serve (non-PNW) oily fish to increase Omega 3s. Fat is your dogs friend once they get transitioned to metabolizing fats (after a primarily kibble based carbohydrate-heavy diet). Leaner meals to start, then raise fat to about 25-35% of the "meat" portion being fat for a hard-working agility dog.

Bill


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## Freemare

naturalfeddogs said:


> Welcome to DFC! First of all, as far as bacteria is concerned, you should just use common sense, and clean contact surfaces and your hands just as you would preparing meat to cook for yourself. And FYI, kibble also has bacteria.
> 
> You can give the dog a set place to eat, like a crate, or a towel on the floor. I personally have all tile floors, so I just mop after.
> 
> As as far as getting enough nutrition, that comes from feeding a variety of different meat, bones and organs over time. Those three things provide all the nutrients a dog needs.
> 
> Cost varies, according to your area and what you have access to. During deer season, look for processors. You can get hundreds of pounds of deer scraps for free because it's illegal to sell them. Tell friends and family, and they can give you older meat out of the freezer they would throw out. Just yesterday we had a neighbor bring us a whole wild turkey, and pork fat back. Look for meats on sale at the grocery. And there are raw feeding websites you can order from. I just got an order about three weeks ago from http://rawfeedingmiami.com.
> Be resourcful, and just hunt around your area for different sources. Do keep in mind though, you will be starting slow, one protein at a time for a few weeks. Once fully transitioned, you will be able to feed all the different proteins you can.




Thanks for the info. I have done a lot more reading and I am still a bit unsure so what would be the process of putting a dog on raw. Do I need to stay on a certain type of meat such as chicken for a few weeks or how does the process go I don?t want to make her sick or anything


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## naturalfeddogs

Start with bone in chicken for a week and a half to two weeks. It's the blandest easiest to digest protein. Quarters work well. After that, assuming all is good you will move on to turkey and do the same. Then pork, beef and other meats. You will get organs in there too, but for now just stay with chicken and see how things go. The point of one protein at a time, is to be able to watch for any digestive issues along the way, and being able to fix it. You will know what the problem is much easier that way. It also gives the dogs system and chance to adjust to the new food.


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## Freemare

naturalfeddogs said:


> Start with bone in chicken for a week and a half to two weeks. It's the blandest easiest to digest protein. Quarters work well. After that, assuming all is good you will move on to turkey and do the same. Then pork, beef and other meats. You will get organs in there too, but for now just stay with chicken and see how things go. The point of one protein at a time, is to be able to watch for any digestive issues along the way, and being able to fix it. You will know what the problem is much easier that way. It also gives the dogs system and chance to adjust to the new food.


Would you need to mix the kibble with raw to transition over or do you just start out with raw on a new day. What about grinding everything up. Into like a mixture.


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## naturalfeddogs

Don't mix anything. Just go straight into it. 

Ground isnt ideal. One of the benefits is dental benefits that come from chewing and tearing meat, and crunching whole bone. You can start with drumsticks if you want, if your dog isn't quite sure what to do with the bone, you can use a kitchen mallet or hammer and hit the drumsticks until they are smashed pretty good. As the chewing gets better, back off the pounding.


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## Freemare

naturalfeddogs said:


> Don't mix anything. Just go straight into it.
> 
> Ground isnt ideal. One of the benefits is dental benefits that come from chewing and tearing meat, and crunching whole bone. You can start with drumsticks if you want, if your dog isn't quite sure what to do with the bone, you can use a kitchen mallet or hammer and hit the drumsticks until they are smashed pretty good. As the chewing gets better, back off the pounding.


 What would be the best way to make like two weeks or more worth of meals for my Aussie. As I would prefer to have something that I could put together for one of my family members to dump into her bowl if I was not available to give her dinner


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## naturalfeddogs

Whatever is easier for you. Freezer bags or containers. You will only be feeding chicken for now, so if you are going with whole quarters, put maybe two per bag/container, per meal.


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## Freemare

naturalfeddogs said:


> Whatever is easier for you. Freezer bags or containers. You will only be feeding chicken for now, so if you are going with whole quarters, put maybe two per bag/container, per meal.


Would it be OK to feed raw let?s see in the morning and Kibble food at night. My friend says that she does this and has successfully done it and I had no issues with her dog. She said it?s to help her family to be able to feed her dog as one of her family members won?t touch raw meat and has to give him kibble at night


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## naturalfeddogs

Some people feed both that way, and some dogs handle it ok, others not so much. The two digest at different rates, so it can cause some issues. My personal opinion, is if you are going to feed raw, you need to be dedicated and stick to it. Either feed one or the other, not both. 

When I first started raw about ten years ago, I did that way, and woke up to cannon butt everywhere. Some even on the walls. So, never again for me. I stuck to raw only and haven't had such issues again.


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## OtherGuy

Freemare said:


> Thanks for the info. I have done a lot more reading and I am still a bit unsure so what would be the process of putting a dog on raw. Do I need to stay on a certain type of meat such as chicken for a few weeks or how does the process go I don?t want to make her sick or anything


There are differences of opinion on this. The upside of one protein added at a time is one can see if a dog has an issue with that protein. For some dogs that is important, certainly critical if one suspects food allergies and intolerances. But for a dog that has been eating all sorts of proteins in kibbles without issue, it is of qustionable value IMO.

The downside of feeding only chicken is that bone-in chicken pieces all have too much bone to comply with PMR ratios (some more than others) and I've seen way too many dogs having GI issues from consuming too much bone to believe bone-in chicken only is a good idea. Too much bone can cause constipation, diahrhea, or vomiting. And it is unnecessary to subject a dog to such a GI assault. If ones goes "all chicken" I'd reduce bone percentages by feeding appropriate amounts of boneless breast (or other) chicken.

I aslo strongly disagree with with the standard advice here to delay organs. Better IMO to introduce them early, in small amounts (that build towards PMR percentages over time). That way dogs get the necessary nutrients without delay and the risks a dog will develop aversions to eating organs is reduced (relative to dogs who have a delayed introduction to organs).

Reducing the fat percentages (only at the beginning) also eases the transition and give a dog's system time to shift to fat metabolism. Then increase fats (as they are a dog's primary energy source).

Mine is a contrarian position on this forum. Follow your own reasoning. We all get to (basically) the same place in the end.

Best,

Bill


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## OldGnarlHead

I personally wouldn't mix because the point of feeding raw is a little lost. And it would essentially double your costs. My husband and I make 3-4 weeks of food in small square tupperware containers. We used bags at first but it was so wasteful.


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## OtherGuy

Freemare said:


> Would you need to mix the kibble with raw to transition over or do you just start out with raw on a new day. What about grinding everything up. Into like a mixture.


Most people just switch. The agruement that raw and kibble digest at different rates has been de-bunked.

It is a good idea to restrict fat in the very beginning by removing the chicken skin and then slowly building back towards full fat to give a dog's system a chance to adjust from primarily burning carbohydrates as fuel to a primarily fat-burning metabolism.

Dogs evolved to burn fat as a primary fuel. Fat is good. Just go slow in the transition with a kibble fed dog.

I disagree with the advice to only feed chicken quarters as quarters have about 2.5 times the bone called for in PMR and that much bone can cause GI distress (diarrhea, constipation, and/or vomiting). 

*If* you go "all chicken" to start (not necessary with dogs that have proven to have no food intolerances or allergy issues), I'd advise feeding equal portions of a bone-in piece (like thigh or leg) with a roughly equal sized portion of boneless chicken. This avoids needless assaults to a dog's GI tract.

Some dogs in transition have problems with diarrhea that result from too much fat (before their systems have the time to acclimate) so a standard advise is to over-fed bone (as it tends to constipate, but can also trigger diarrehea) Better IMO to avoid the real issue by introducing fats slowly rather than trying to plug a dog up with too much bone (which can causes its own issues).

It is good for dog's teeth to chew soft-edible bone (like chicken) and it also relaxes dogs. Grinding it not optimal. It can be helpful to hold pieces like drumsticks to both encouragce chewing and deeping bonds between dog and human. I advise it.

Good luck

Bill


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## OtherGuy

Freemare said:


> What would be the best way to make like two weeks or more worth of meals for my Aussie. As I would prefer to have something that I could put together for one of my family members to dump into her bowl if I was not available to give her dinner


My advise (and what I do) is rather than packing complete "meals" is to break down items into portions that can easily be mixed and matched to make PMR ration meals.

So for example, you have organs individually frozen in portions that are roughly 10% of a daily meal. Feed liver one day and "other" the next.

Then have meat portions that you can balance with bone-in portions that are pre-packed. This way meals can be assembled quickly, but you don't need to coordinated purchases and any butchering to pack all the ingredients at the same moment. Part of the adventure is capitalizing on good finds. Packing by type (rather than meals) makes the job much easier IMO.

Bill


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## OldGnarlHead

OtherGuy said:


> *If* you go "all chicken" to start (not necessary with dogs that have proven to have no food intolerances or allergy issues)


I'll point out that my dog *ABSOLUTELY *needed a careful and thorough transition. If we had just thrown her on a bunch of different proteins starting out she probably would have literally, and I mean literally, pooped her brains out.


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