# Help me with math please



## hbwright (Jul 14, 2010)

I just wrap my brain around this, math is not my strong suit. 

My mother has been feeding home cooked meals and wants to try raw. She is nervous about the whole prey diet so is starting off with Primal with 10% RMBs divided about twice a week. I'm hoping she'll switch to whole prey at some point but won't rush her past her comfort level. 

Anyway, her dogs are 8, 10 and 11 pounds. My question is that since she is going to give 10% RMB's a week will she need to add some organ into their also? If so, how do I figure this out mathmatically for her. It is easy with doing 100% but I can't wrap my head around how to work up 10% of 10%, blah, blah. I'm thinking that with the 10 pounder as an easy example, that would be .025% a day or 0.09 lb each RMB meal twice a week. So, would I take up 10 lbs divide by 2.5% maintanance a day divide by 10% RMBs given and then another 10% for the organ? This is too darn comfusing for me but I want her to at least give them some RMB. I figure the more comfortable she is with even even twice a week the more comfortable she would be to do it even more (in turn save money and the aggrivation of working out all this math, LOL).


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## SerenityFL (Sep 28, 2010)

If I'm understanding the ratios correctly, dogs are supposed to get 8:1:1 or 80% meat, 10% bone and 10% organ. And if I remember right, they are supposed to get 2-3% of their ideal adult body weight in food, per day.

So, for an example:

An 8 pound dog would get:

1.12 pounds of food per week.

(Take 2% of ideal adult weight, 8 pounds, and that equals .16 per day. For seven days, 1.12 pounds of food per week.)

To break it down, the percentages of that 1.12 would be:

.896 of meat per week (80% meat)

.112 of bone per week (10% bone)

.112 of organ per week (10% organ)

This comes out to less than a pound of meat per week, and not even a quarter pound of bone or organ, per week.

I'm still fairly new to all of this and to me that seems like such a small amount of food but again, this is an 8 pound dog we are talking about. I may also be wrong on the 2-3% of ideal adult body weight....although I could have sworn that's what I've been reading.

I'm sure someone will come along and correct me if I'm wrong. (Please do!) But that is my math using the best of my understanding of raw feeding.


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## bully4life (Aug 9, 2010)

In my opinion, ive NEVER needed to weigh anything, or figure out equations, all i do is cut up a quarter chicken, or give a piece of liver or kidney here and there and that works for me.And according to the blood chemistry tests that i do for the dogs ,everything is right where it should be I never had the desire to do the 8:1:1. Im assuming out in the wild a wolf doesnt make sure he getting balanced portions,,cause in the long run it all works out. Lets say a few wolves make a kill. I dont think they take a bite of liver and then think"ok, thats enough" them moves on to 3-4 bites of meat. Its real a simple diet. Its when us humans come along and try to formulate ratio's of what WE think should be appropriate. Have fun with this diet and experiment and do what works for you, Heavy dog= less food, skinny dog= more food.


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## mwplay (Oct 10, 2010)

*Primal website*

On Primal's website, they've got a feeding calculator that will help you figure how much to feed.

If you are feeding any of their food, they've already got organs (liver) in them. Do you know if you are feeding a formula (meat/bone/organ/veges/supp), mix (meat/bone/organ/veges) or grind (meat/bones/organ only)? 

I've got 4 mini poodles, all adults, 18 lb, 15 lb, 15lb and 12 lb. I fed the Primal grinds for a long time. I liked it, but I found when I thawed the 5lb chub, it would get very watery/bloody/soupy. I ended up adding more meat into the meal because it seemed my dogs were always starving. I found that my smallest dog needed more food, and ate almost the same amount as my largest due to her metabolism. So, you might find you need a little more than what is recommended. I would go through a 5 lb chub in 2 days. 

I have moved away from Primal to whole cuts. I still use it on the weekends when my husband is home for their morning meal. He doesn't like the idea of "bugs", but realizes that a raw diet is good for the dogs. So, in the spirit of compromise, they get primal on the weekends for their bone meal. During the week, they get whole cuts.


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## RawFedDogs (Jun 16, 2008)

hbwright said:


> My question is that since she is going to give 10% RMB's a week will she need to add some organ into their also? If so, how do I figure this out mathmatically for her.


You are spending a lot of time and energy trying to figure out stuff that really is unimportant. You are trying to make something that is very simple, very complex. If she wants to throw an rmb into the diet, just look at it and feed about that much less of the Primal. No need to worry about anything else. It's that easy. :smile:

Diet, eating, and feeding is not an exact thing.


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## sassymaxmom (Dec 7, 2008)

Agree, just subtract a little of the Primal on days the dogs get a meaty bone. With over fortified commercial diets you can substitute about 25% fresh unbalanced foods for the commercial stuff without unbalancing the diet and twice a week if fed twice a day comes to about 14%. Just a meaty bone is pretty good stuff already, it isn't like you are giving them something devoid of any nutritional value like Cheetos instead.


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## hbwright (Jul 14, 2010)

So the small amount of RMB wouldn't really make a difference a far a having to add in a little more organ? The mix does have bone, meat and organ already. I just want to make sure I don't steer my mom in the wrong direction. She'd have my head on a platter. I'm new enough to raw and deal with pounds rather than ounces. Lol. The whole ounce thing is foreign to me.


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## DaneMama (Jun 27, 2008)

I don't think she will need to add in more organ meat if there is already organ in the Primal stuff. Just tell her to add in a chicken wing twice a week...easy as that. I'm sure it will take a while for her dogs to figure out how to chew through raw bones, but they will get it eventually :wink:


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## Khan (Jan 17, 2010)

The title of the thread made me laugh. Only because I AM mathematically challenged. So As I opened it, I thought...Really, how are you going to be of any help on this subject!! hehehe:biggrin:


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## hbwright (Jul 14, 2010)

danemama08 said:


> I don't think she will need to add in more organ meat if there is already organ in the Primal stuff. Just tell her to add in a chicken wing twice a week...easy as that. I'm sure it will take a while for her dogs to figure out how to chew through raw bones, but they will get it eventually :wink:


They got their first RMB meals tonight and did not need to think about it. Just chewed and crunched away with their cute little bloody faces. I think they just might have been made for this diet. TeeHee



Khan said:


> The title of the thread made me laugh. Only because I AM mathematically challenged. So As I opened it, I thought...Really, how are you going to be of any help on this subject!! hehehe:biggrin:


Yes, math is not my strength. I teach my daughter homeschool and math makes me very nervous. She may learn that she actually knows more than I do.


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## Hav/Malt (Oct 26, 2010)

hbwright said:


> I just want to make sure I don't steer my mom in the wrong direction. She'd have my head on a platter.



Smart girl you are !! :wink: And I'm even worse at math. I'm the neurotic mom who is so new and intimidated by all of this, so I'm just going to browse around and try to educate myself as much as possible. 

They really did enjoy their RMB meal last night and had no problems figuring out what to do with it. Encouarging !!


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## DaneMama (Jun 27, 2008)

Hav/Malt said:


> Smart girl you are !! :wink: And I'm even worse at math. I'm the neurotic mom who is so new and intimidated by all of this, so I'm just going to browse around and try to educate myself as much as possible.
> 
> They really did enjoy their RMB meal last night and had no problems figuring out what to do with it. Encouarging !!


Glad to hear you're switching to raw! You're definitely in the right place to do so, lots of helpful people here. What did your dogs get for their first meal?


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## Hav/Malt (Oct 26, 2010)

danemama08 said:


> Glad to hear you're switching to raw! You're definitely in the right place to do so, lots of helpful people here. What did your dogs get for their first meal?


They each had a chicken wing. :biggrin:


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## SerenityFL (Sep 28, 2010)

Hav/Malt said:


> Smart girl you are !! :wink: And I'm even worse at math. I'm the neurotic mom who is so new and intimidated by all of this, so I'm just going to browse around and try to educate myself as much as possible.
> 
> They really did enjoy their RMB meal last night and had no problems figuring out what to do with it. Encouarging !!


Hi "Mom"! I'm glad that you are open minded and are willing to look around and get some answers. Please ask whatever you want to ask, the people here are so helpful and knowledgeable.


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## DaneMama (Jun 27, 2008)

Hav/Malt said:


> They each had a chicken wing. :biggrin:


Sounds like the perfect start to me! Keep us posted!


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## Hav/Malt (Oct 26, 2010)

*Back with an update & questions.*

Hello, an update and a few questions. I'm still feeling pretty dumb with all of this. We are still on Primal raw but several different proteins have been added. They are getting a RMB meal every other night. We are doing chicken wings, chicken backs and chicken necks. The chicken neck meals concern me. They are devoured in a nanosecond by the smallest one (8 lb Maltese). Questions regarding that to follow.

I'm still so confused about the 80/10/10. When I weigh a chicken wing that is 3.5 ounces, how on earth do I know how much is meat and how much is bone?. A chicken back is more bone. So how do I know how much bone versus meat. Am I concerning myself too much with all this? I'm not too worried about adding organ at this point because they are getting their organ meat from the Primal. I have given "pinches" that I take from the chicken backs just to see if they will eat them solo and raw. No problem there. They each got a smelt to try to see how that would go (it was eaten but wasn't their favorite) and have tried some raw salmon in small amounts (boneless). Slow but steady progress. I have some quail in the freezer that I will probably try next. 

These are small dogs, 8, 10 and 11 pounds and I am as confused as can be especially when things are measured in ounces. A pound or 2 of weight gain or weight loss is quite significant in these little ones. One has lost weight (6 oz) so I am increasing his amount of Primal at this point.

All in all, we are moving forward at a SLOW pace. They absolutely love it and so excited when they see the towels come out. Which leads me to another question. The little guy is a little too exuberant. He does very little chewing and will try his hardest to swallow as much as he can, as quickly as he can. I have begun holding it to make him pull, chew and crunch. I fear for my fingers !!  Could it just be he's an inexperienced chewer with hopes for improvement? The last chicken neck he had, while I was giving the other 2 theirs, he had devoured the whole thing in a blink of an eye. I'm very worried about choking or getting lodged somewhere it shouldn't. Any suggestions?

Sorry, I didn't mean for this to be so long. :frown:


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## Caty M (Aug 13, 2010)

You are overthinking.. just feed a bone in meal in the morning and a boneless meal in the evening (assuming that they are up to boneless meals now). Choking can be an issue, if you think necks aren't being chewed enough, go for larger cuts of meat.

Keep an eye on their poops, firm but not white and crumbly right away is good.


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## DaneMama (Jun 27, 2008)

Hello and welcome! 

First, I wouldnt worry so much about exact percentages of bone to meat in the specific RMBs especially since the 80/10/10 ratio is for a prey model raw style or feeding and you're not doing that. If you were to stop with the primal and go 100% PMR/RMBs then the ratio of meat to bone is a little more important but it's still a guideline. Every dog is different and you have to keep an eye on over all body system function to know what your dog needs bone content wise. When transitioning to a raw diet it's definitely suggested to give more like 30-50% bone in the first few days. Bone acts as a constipator and binds stool. The more bone you feed the firmer the stools will be. Initially dogs typically can get diarrhea but with feeding high amounts of bone that usually is taken care of in the first few days. 

Second, I wouldn't feed chicken necks if you're dogs are able to swallow them whole. This is a choking hazard. But if they crunch them a few times and then swallow I'd say theyre fine to feed. Dogs don't chew like we do, at least they don't need to. Some dogs are meticulous chewers and others are "gulpers" but this is normal. If they crunch-crunch-swallow that is normal. As long as it fits down the hatch they're good to go. One of our dogs does this with chicken leg quarters that weigh a pound, barely chewing but only nice formed tiny poos come out so I know that she is just eating the way she was designed to. It's a little unnerving to see for the first few times but eventually it will just be second nature for you to see.

Dont be sorry about asking questions. It's how you learn :wink:


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## RawFedDogs (Jun 16, 2008)

Hav/Malt said:


> I'm still so confused about the 80/10/10. When I weigh a chicken wing that is 3.5 ounces, how on earth do I know how much is meat and how much is bone?. A chicken back is more bone. So how do I know how much bone versus meat. Am I concerning myself too much with all this?


Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes ... forget you ever saw 80-10-10. Those numbers are arbitrary numbers that some one came up with about 8 or 9 years ago. They mean absolutely nothing. Do you carefully measure the nutrient intake in your own diet? If no, then don't worry so much about your dogs. Here is what you need to remember: Feed a variety of animal parts from a variety of animals. FEED MOSTLY MEAT, SOME BONE, AND SOME ORGANS. Exact amounts don't mean a hill of beans. If your dogs poop comes out white, you are feeding too much bone. If it comes out yellow or brown or black and turns white in somewhere between a few hours and a few days, you are feeding a good amount of bone. If the poop is soft and shapeless, you aren't feeding enough bone. Feeding too much organs can cause the soft stools too.




> I'm not too worried about adding organ at this point because they are getting their organ meat from the Primal. I have given "pinches" that I take from the chicken backs just to see if they will eat them solo and raw. No problem there.


Cool 



> They each got a smelt to try to see how that would go (it was eaten but wasn't their favorite) and have tried some raw salmon in small amounts (boneless). Slow but steady progress. I have some quail in the freezer that I will probably try next.


Cool



> These are small dogs, 8, 10 and 11 pounds and I am as confused as can be especially when things are measured in ounces. A pound or 2 of weight gain or weight loss is quite significant in these little ones. One has lost weight (6 oz) so I am increasing his amount of Primal at this point.


Thats exactly what you do. Too fat, cut down on food. Too thin, feed more.



> The little guy is a little too exuberant. He does very little chewing and will try his hardest to swallow as much as he can, as quickly as he can.


This is a natural behavior. In the wild he would have to eat fast before something larger came along and took it away from him. Don't expect dogs to have human table manners.



> I have begun holding it to make him pull, chew and crunch. I fear for my fingers !!  Could it just be he's an inexperienced chewer with hopes for improvement?


He will probably eat slower when he realizes he will get another meal just like this one in 12 hours or so. I always discourage people holding the food for the dogs. Some dogs can/will become dependent on it and then you have a problem. Just let him have the food and get out of the way. If he swallows without chewing, feed him larger food that he MUST chew before he swallows.



> The last chicken neck he had, while I was giving the other 2 theirs, he had devoured the whole thing in a blink of an eye. I'm very worried about choking or getting lodged somewhere it shouldn't. Any suggestions?


Yes, stop worrying. My dogs can eat a chicken leg quarter in about 10 seconds. Its 2 or 3 chomps then down the hatch.

You will get more relaxed in time and not think anything about their eating habbits. It kinda tickles us old timers when we see newbies getting all upset about trivial little things that we understand is normal behavior. Thats how we get our entertainment around here. :biggrin: Don't worry, we all had to learn this when we first began. Just sit back, relax and enjoy watching your dogs have fun with their new food. :smile:


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## Hav/Malt (Oct 26, 2010)

Thank you for the wonderful responses. In other words...just chill. :wink:

The stools are fine. I haven't noticed any white stools yet nor liquidy. They are mostly brown to light brown in color and crumble once dried. That part I LOVE !! So it sounds like we are on the right track.

I am so happy to disregard the 80-10-10 !! That was driving me nuts.


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## hbwright (Jul 14, 2010)

See where I got my relaxed attitude from? Aren't they awesome? You're doing great and I'm more qualified than anybody to tell you they couldn't have a more amazing mom. 

The longer you do this the easier it is to chill. Trust me. I've felt a little freaked when I realized that J can swallow a pound of food with 2 crunches. He did it last night with the rabbit. He gnarled it down to swallowable size and down the hatch. Now Bubba seems to be taking lessons from him.


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