# orijen or something else?



## NeilB (Feb 8, 2012)

Hi all.
I have a 7 month old beagle who has always had loose stools. Since we got her at 10 weeks we have been using Royal Canin Junior and we were told that, although her stools were loose, she would get used to it. Well - she hasn't. I have tried pineapple chunks and rice (which works) but I think it is only fair to move her on to something else. My vet thinks that my dog has a protein intolerance/allergy.
I have heard... or should I say read, good and bad things about Orijen. Royal Canin offer a hypoallergenic food, but it is very expensive. If that is the best option, then so be it, but I would like an alternative. I'd appreciate any feedback.
By the way, we live in Spain so we don't have quite the range of foods that countries like the US and UK have.


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## mythbuster (Jan 23, 2012)

Has she been dewormed and had fecal testing? In puppies you want to eliminate the possibility of parasites before you start changing foods. Make sure there's no worms, no coccidia, and no giardia. 

Switching foods when a dog already has soft stool actually increases the risk of developing food allergies because their gut is more leaky, so they are more likely to absorb larger pieces of protein, which the body can develop an immune reaction to. I'm not sure why the pineapple would help unless the pup isn't producing enough digestive enzymes, but the rice helps because it's a good 'binder'. Something else that can be effective is adding psyllium fibre (metamucil) or bran. Once you're positive there is no possibility of parasites, if the dog still has loose stools, then the best way to diagnose a food allergy is with either a homemade or a prescription hypoallergenic diet. Not Orijen.


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## Jenny (Dec 7, 2010)

Maybe your dog get loose stools because of grains? I would change Royal Canin to Acana Wild Prairie or Acana Pacifica. They are great grain free foods, and also suitable for puppies. I wouldn't change to Orijen (possibly too rich) or other Royal Canin (crap).


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## DogLuver (Oct 19, 2011)

First off, welcome to DFC! We'd love to see some pictures of your beagle puppy! 

I have a 7mth old Great Dane pup who has been on Orijen Large Breed Puppy for about 4 months now with much success. 

My experience with him, he came from the breeder on Royal Canin, and had absolute canon butt (extreme diarrhea) for 2 weeks. I thought it was maybe the transition to a new home, but it didn't get better, so I switched him slowly to Innova Large Breed Puppy, and he continued having diarhea, and it was actually a little bit better than the royal canin, but inconsistent, so I read up as much as I could in regards to what was the best thing to feed him, I contacted other Great Dane owners, my vet, a couple trainers, and from the information I gathered, I decided to feed him Orijen Large Breed Puppy...I have never looked back since. At this time I also switched my Golden Retriever to Orijen and Acana foods (with my Retriever I rotate food every 30lb bag, but my Great Dane pup gets diarrhea easily when switching), I saw major improvements with him, his coat became SUPER shiny, he lost that dog odor, doesn't have eye boogers anymore, he has more of an appetite and enjoys eating (he was a picky eater before), and he was also able to keep a steady weight, as he is a very tall, lean, active Retriever so it was hard to find a food that was enough to keep him at a healthy weight without feeding him a ton.

I've heard mixed things about Orijen foods as well, when it comes down to it, you have to learn as much as you can, and make a decision that makes you feel good. I personally feel good about feeding my dogs Orijen (and Acana). I trust the company (Champion Pet Foods), I believe the foods are good because they have a lot of meat content in them, I know a lot of people that feed it and are extremely happy with the results, I've seem the amazing improvements in my Golden Retriever in comparison to other foods, and it helped my Great Dane pup keep regular stools, and grow at a steady pace. The thing about high protein is confusing, as there is so much mixed information all over the place, and it even depends which vet you talk to, but as far as I understand, the high protein level in Orijen is not a problem because it is coming from meat sources, not grains/vegetables (I know Mythbuster and TheExpert will "correct" me here), and you feed less of this food than you would some others because it's calorie dense.

Good luck with whatever you choose. I would recommend seeing your vet to rule out worms and stuff that like first of coarse, but I've heard of many puppies that get diarrhea from heavy grain foods (such as Royal Canin). If you like the idea of Orijen, look into Acana as well, it's kinda like a cheaper version of Orijen (made by same company). I also highly recommend reading the RAW section even if you don't ever plan on feeding RAW, it gives you a better idea of canine nutrition and what dogs really need. I read the RAW section all the time even though I feed kibble, it's a good place to learn.


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## Caty M (Aug 13, 2010)

You don't need a prescription HA food. Just slowly try to narrow down what ingredient he/she has a problem with. Chicken, corn and wheat are common allergens. Make sure to stick out a food for at least six weeks.


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## mythbuster (Jan 23, 2012)

Caty M said:


> You don't need a prescription HA food. Just slowly try to narrow down what ingredient he/she has a problem with. Chicken, corn and wheat are common allergens. Make sure to stick out a food for at least six weeks.


1) This is a very biased forum with opinions on who makes good food. Royal Canin is not crap. Grains are not a common cause of food allergies in dogs.
2) IF you rule out parasites and decide that it likely is a food allergy, then yes, you do need a prescription hypoallergenic diet, unless you would like to make your own diet at home. OTC foods are not produced with the same level of quality control to ensure there is not contamination with whatever your pet is allergic to. See the below abstract. 

ELISA testing for common food antigens in four dry dog foods used in dietary elimination trials. J Anim Physiol Anim Nutr (Berl). February 2011;95(1):90-7. 
D M Raditic1; R L Remillard; K C Tater 
1MSPCA Angell Animal Medical Center, 350 S. Huntington Ave., Boston, MA 02130, USA. 
© 2010 Blackwell Verlag GmbH. 


Article AbstractThis study evaluated four over the counter venison dry dog foods available from one on-line retail vendor for potential contamination with common known food allergens: soy, poultry or beef. An amplified, double sandwich type enzyme linked immunosorbent assay (ELISA) test of soy, poultry and beef proteins were performed by an independent accredited food laboratory. The ELISA test for poultry protein was found to be unreliable when testing in dry dog foods because false negatives occurred. ELISA testing of control diets for both soy and beef proteins performed as expected and could be useful in antigen testing in dry dog foods. Three of the four over the counter (OTC) venison canine dry foods with no soy products named in the ingredient list were ELISA positive for soy; additionally one OTC diet tested positive for beef protein with no beef products listed as an ingredient list. One OTC venison diet was not found to be positive for soy, poultry or beef proteins. However, none of the four OTC venison diets could be considered suitable for a diagnostic elimination trial as they all contained common pet food proteins, some of which were readily identifiable on the label and some that were only detected by ELISA. Therefore, if the four OTC venison products selected in this study are representative of OTC products in general, then the use of OTC venison dry dog foods should not be used during elimination trials in suspected food allergy patients.


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## Caty M (Aug 13, 2010)

What makes a food hypoallergenic? What if the dog is allergic to the ingredients in the HA food?

I find you rather biased as well.. towards Royal Canin. I recommend what works for me and for others in the past. Nothing wrong with that. Champion foods makes quality kibbles and I love their Acana line. If you live in the US there is a single protein line as well I'm pretty sure.


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## Jack Monzon (Jul 25, 2010)

How much are you feeding?


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## NeilB (Feb 8, 2012)

Thanks for all the advice.
Am pretty sure that she doesn't have any worms/parasites. She was checked a couple of months ago, and this is been an ongoing problem. We follow a programme for deworming/deparasite-ing.
It is true that the vet 'says' it could be an allergy to a protein - but, like someone mentioned in the forum, different vets can interpret things differently.
I would like to say that I am going to work out which ingredient doesn't agree with her and find a food which doesn't contain it. However, that seems like an expensive way of doing things. Food here (not sure about where you are from) is expensive. We pay about 50 euros for a 14kg bag.
The big questions are:
1. Should I change the food now or wait?
2. How long should I try a new diet for?

I can get Royal Canin Hypoallergenic for 5,52euros per kg or Orijen Puppy for 4,44euros per kg. We can get Acana here but it is not cheaper than Orijen and I understand that Orijen is 'better' - appreciate that this is very subjective.

Many thanks for all your help so far.
Neil


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## Caty M (Aug 13, 2010)

The dog should ideally be on the new food for at least six weeks before deciding it isn't working, unless of course there is significant and immediate signs of an allergy- hives, etc. That should really give you time to go through a bag.

You will feed a LOT less of the Orijen vs the RC since it's a much denser food and there isn't as much carbohydrate filler. Some dogs do better on the Acana over the Orijen and the only real way to see is to try it out! 

You could of course always consider a homemade diet, raw or cooked. That way you control everything.


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## whiteleo (Sep 7, 2008)

I agree with Caty M I would try the Acana line over the Orijen line even though they are both great products made by Champion Pet foods. Acana is a little less protein content than the Orijen line and dogs who have had serious cannon butt like my female as a puppy who had grain intolerance did really well on Acana after thousands in vet bills trying to figure out what the issue was, he also suggested the prescription food which she wouldn't eat.(plain crap food) I definitely would consider trying the Acana line, Good Luck!


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## mythbuster (Jan 23, 2012)

Caty M said:


> What makes a food hypoallergenic?


Hypoallergenic diets fall into 2 categories: novel protein, where the protein source is one that the dog has not been exposed to previously, or hydrolyzed protein, where they break the bonds between amino acids so the body doesn't recognize the protein source as something it is allergic to. 


Caty M said:


> What if the dog is allergic to the ingredients in the HA food?


That's certainly possible, but at least with a prescription diet you can say the allergy is to a protein listed on the ingredient deck vs an OTC diet where the reaction could be to something that's listed in the deck, or something that should not be in the diet but is in there anyway. The prescription diet companies actually test the product after it's produced to make sure there is no other protein contamination.


Caty M said:


> I find you rather biased as well.. towards Royal Canin. I recommend what works for me and for others in the past. Nothing wrong with that. Champion foods makes quality kibbles and I love their Acana line. If you live in the US there is a single protein line as well I'm pretty sure.


I'm not saying RC is the only option, I'm saying if it's a food allergy, then feed either an Rx diet, or make your own. Champion has good marketing. That's all the credit I'm willing to give them.


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## whiteleo (Sep 7, 2008)

How can they charge so much money for Rx diets when they mostly contain sawdust?


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## monkeys23 (Dec 8, 2010)

When I fed kibble, my one girl had the same problems! She did best on Acana Grasslands, Pacifica, and wild Prarie. I bet the new Ranchlands would have gone well too.

Just keep in mind that you'll feed less of something high quality like Acana grain free than you would of a low quality food like RC.
My extremely thrifty 47lb sled dog only ate 1 to 1 1/3 cups a day on Acana and my other dog who is 58lbs ate 2 cups a day.... If I overfed she would get loose stools, so had to be careful with the bigger girl about that.

I will say the one who had loose stools has done even better on prey model raw.... just sayin! :smile:


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## PDXdogmom (Jun 30, 2010)

The OP should consider a transition to a kibble with a much more limited ingredient list. . . a simple formula. Neither Origen or Acana fit that profile - they have 5-7 different meat protein sources as well as a couple dozen others ingredients. While people may like these brands for other reasons, they're not a wise choice when you're trying to determine intolerances to various ingredients.

I do not know what you have available to you; but you might try a single type meat protein food that lists something like "chicken, chicken meal" for the first two ingredients followed by a carbohydrate like rice or peas. Usually the shorter the ingredient list the better for dogs with sensitive stomachs.


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## mythbuster (Jan 23, 2012)

whiteleo said:


> How can they charge so much money for Rx diets when they mostly contain sawdust?


What is the obsession with sawdust in this forum? Cellulose is not sawdust. Rx diets are expensive because the ingredients are expensive, the research is expensive, and the testing to ensure quality and consistency is expensive. Why would a company spend billions of dollars on research and quality control and specialized testing facilities, only to use substandard ingredients? Answer: they wouldn't.


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## Jenny (Dec 7, 2010)

mythbuster said:


> 1) Grains are not a common cause of food allergies in dogs.


You cannot test dogs' food allergies in vet / lab. They are not reliable. You have to feed your dog, so you know if something food causes problems or not. I know many dogs, who "should" have allergy to certain foods, but they can eat them without problems. I also know dogs, who shouldn't have allergy (based to the tests) to something but they cannot eat that stuff...

I know many dogs, who get diarre / soft tools, itching, licking paws or ear problems if eating corn or wheat. So I would say, grains are quite common cause of problems in dogs. I know also MANY dogs who have got problems when eating Royal Canin. Unfortunately that's very true. :frown: But I do understand why, when reading Royal Canin's ingredients...


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## whiteleo (Sep 7, 2008)

Oh, Yes they would and you won't convince most of here otherwise!


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## Jenny (Dec 7, 2010)

mythbuster said:


> Rx diets are expensive because the ingredients are expensive


Corn, wheat, corn gluten, animal fat, hydrolysed animal protein etc. Really expensive and good quality?

Royal Canin has huge marketing and they are giving lots of "gifts" for breeders, shows and breed clubs in our country. That's expensive. But that's clever, too. Without that they wouldn't get so many customers.


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## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

mythbuster said:


> What is the obsession with sawdust in this forum? Cellulose is not sawdust. Rx diets are expensive because the ingredients are expensive, the research is expensive, and the testing to ensure quality and consistency is expensive. Why would a company spend billions of dollars on research and quality control and specialized testing facilities, only to use substandard ingredients? Answer: they wouldn't.


Cellulose is a a minimum mostly indigestible fiber, and at worst, yes, sawdust. It is FILLER. No use to dogs. Dogs don't need fiber. 

And of course they would use substandard ingredients. Good God you either own a pet food company or were raised on Mars.


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## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

From AAFCO: 

CELLULOSE: Purified, mechanically disintegrated cellulose prepared by processing alpha cellulose obtained as a pulp from fibrous plant materials.

*Dried wood is the most common source for cellulose *(I'm not kidding.). It is cleaned, processed into a fine powder and used to add bulk and consistency to cheap pet foods. I would consider this ingredient appropriate for termites, but certainly not for dogs or cats. 

The Dog Food Project - Ingredients to avoid


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## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

Jenny said:


> You cannot test dogs' food allergies in vet / lab. They are not reliable. You have to feed your dog, so you know if something food causes problems or not. I know many dogs, who "should" have allergy to certain foods, but they can eat them without problems. I also know dogs, who shouldn't have allergy (based to the tests) to something but they cannot eat that stuff...
> 
> I know many dogs, who get diarre / soft tools, itching, licking paws or ear problems if eating corn or wheat. So I would say, grains are quite common cause of problems in dogs. I know also MANY dogs who have got problems when eating Royal Canin. Unfortunately that's very true. :frown: But I do understand why, when reading Royal Canin's ingredients...


mythbuster has stated allergy research is unreliable. Yet, when it suits, he spouts off statistics like they mean something.


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## Huginn (Nov 21, 2011)

Mythbuster you keep saying that Acana and Orijen have really good marketing . . . however I have never seen any marketing by them . . . whatsoever and I work IN A PET STORE. . . I have however seen copious amounts of marketing from RC and Science Diet. I have worked in the pet industry since 2007 (no too long) but I didnt hear about Orijen until 2010 and that was because my boyfriend was feeding it, he heard about it from a friend. Acana, I didn't hear about them until coming here in Nov 2011. So really, how good is there marketing if someone who is always looking for a new good dog food had never heard of it?


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## greyshadows (Jan 30, 2012)

Just curious, I hear a lot about dogs being allergic to chicken, why would that be? I mean I never hear about other meats and I have to say looking at all brands ingredients as I have been looking to switch ( I think I am going blind from the small print), most seem to have chicken in them. Are a lot of dogs really allergic to chicken even good quality chicken?


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## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

greyshadows said:


> Just curious, I hear a lot about dogs being allergic to chicken, why would that be? I mean I never hear about other meats and I have to say looking at all brands ingredients as I have been looking to switch ( I think I am going blind from the small print), most seem to have chicken in them. Are a lot of dogs really allergic to chicken even good quality chicken?


Of course it's hard to tell for sure, but my dog developed severe allergies in his ears when i fed him any dry food that had any amount of chicken it. It does seem like he was allergic to processed chicken, even though I suppose it could have been some grain or something that was in all the different foods.

He did ok on fish-based dry food with no chicken in it. 

He doesn't have that allergy with raw chicken; he eats it all the time.


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## Scarlett_O' (May 19, 2011)

greyshadows said:


> Just curious, I hear a lot about dogs being allergic to chicken, why would that be? I mean I never hear about other meats and I have to say looking at all brands ingredients as I have been looking to switch ( I think I am going blind from the small print), most seem to have chicken in them. Are a lot of dogs really allergic to chicken even good quality chicken?


Protein changes when cooked.
Chicken seems to effect carnivores more then other proteins(I dont know why....one of out smart guys might be able to tell you!:wink

Ive never had an animal allergic or sensitive to ANY cooked protein other then chicken, and Ive dealt with QUITE a few of them!!

My Brody(and Beauregard, R.I.P.) would break out in hives, have hair loss, red/itchy/hot to the touch skin, have swelling in the face, and ears and rears that itched like crazy, Leo gets REALLY bad hives and his whole body will turn pink when given cooked chicken, either homemade stuff or when in processed foods.

Raw chicken they can eat all day long and be perfectly fine on!!!:thumb:


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## greyshadows (Jan 30, 2012)

So strange about the chicken! Never heard about that. Just switched my babies to Acana Grasslands and there is no chicken in it.


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## mythbuster (Jan 23, 2012)

xellil said:


> Cellulose is a a minimum mostly indigestible fiber, and at worst, yes, sawdust. It is FILLER. No use to dogs. Dogs don't need fiber.
> 
> And of course they would use substandard ingredients. Good God you either own a pet food company or were raised on Mars.


You know you just might get your wish, so many of you spout off like you are experts but have NOTHING to back up what you're saying. I have had it with your ignorant comments and accusations. ****CONTENT REMOVED BY MOD****

Cellulose is an insoluble fibre. You're right, it isn't digested, it doesn't supply nutrients or energy, however, it DOES help to maintain a healthy GIT by stimulating colonic contractions and helping to exfoliate old sloughed intestinal cells, making digestion and absorbtion more effective. It's not a filler if it serves a purpose. But what do you care, as long as you can horrify people with images of feeding their pet sawdust you've succeeded in your mission. It doesn't matter if a food is nutritious or anything else, if you can make a scene about it gosh darn it you will.


greyshadows said:


> Just curious, I hear a lot about dogs being allergic to chicken, why would that be? I mean I never hear about other meats and I have to say looking at all brands ingredients as I have been looking to switch ( I think I am going blind from the small print), most seem to have chicken in them. Are a lot of dogs really allergic to chicken even good quality chicken?


Proteins are made up of strings of amino acids, which fold into complex 3-D structures determined by the identity of the amino acids and the sequence they are in. An allergy is a body's reaction to a specific shape of of amino acids. If you cook a protein, the charges in the protein change, which changes the shape of the amino acid sequence (the sequence itself doesn't change, chicken is still chicken whether it's raw or cooked), but when the shape changes, you won't have the same amino acids sitting next to each other, which is what initiates the reaction. Quality has nothing to do with whether an animal will develop an allergy or not, however, if a low quality diet is fed, and the dog gets diarrhea, the gut will be more permeable, meaning larger pieces of protein can be absorbed into the bloodstream. Once these pieces are in the bloodstream, the body's immune system attaches to them because they are not "self" proteins, and develop antibodies to it, preparing the body for an allergic reaction the next time the body is exposed to that amino acid sequence, whether it's the same low quality diet or another diet containing the same protein. Chicken is a common allergy because chicken is commonly found in pet food. You have to be exposed to a protein in order to develop an allergic response to it.


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## Scarlett_O' (May 19, 2011)

greyshadows said:


> So strange about the chicken! Never heard about that. Just switched my babies to Acana Grasslands and there is no chicken in it.


Grasslands is actually one of the ones that Brody couldnt have when on Acana....because of it having chicken fat in it, and he has such horrid reactions to any chicken!
But the food you had them on before also had chicken in it, so unless you see a reaction later on and want to test it and rotate to a different Acana(or if you plan on rotating anyways)you will probably be fine!:wink:


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## greyshadows (Jan 30, 2012)

Why is lamb considered "hypo allergic"? My vet says to try it to ease digestion. Is it because it is easier to digest? It doesn't seem common in many foods.


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## Huginn (Nov 21, 2011)

mythbuster said:


> Proteins are made up of strings of amino acids, which fold into complex 3-D structures determined by the identity of the amino acids and the sequence they are in. An allergy is a body's reaction to a specific shape of of amino acids. If you cook a protein, the charges in the protein change, which changes the shape of the amino acid sequence (the sequence itself doesn't change, chicken is still chicken whether it's raw or cooked), but when the shape changes, you won't have the same amino acids sitting next to each other, which is what initiates the reaction. Quality has nothing to do with whether an animal will develop an allergy or not, however, if a low quality diet is fed, and the dog gets diarrhea, the gut will be more permeable, meaning larger pieces of protein can be absorbed into the bloodstream. Once these pieces are in the bloodstream, the body's immune system attaches to them because they are not "self" proteins, and develop antibodies to it, preparing the body for an allergic reaction the next time the body is exposed to that amino acid sequence, whether it's the same low quality diet or another diet containing the same protein. Chicken is a common allergy because chicken is commonly found in pet food. You have to be exposed to a protein in order to develop an allergic response to it.


While I have disagreed with nearly everyone of your posts, this is very useful and a very good explanation. Allergies are a very misunderstood condition, both in humans and animals. 

How ever, I do not feel that what you said to Xellil was necessary. She feels the same as all of us here, cellulose is not a good ingredient.


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## DogLuver (Oct 19, 2011)

Huginn said:


> Mythbuster you keep saying that Acana and Orijen have really good marketing . . . however I have never seen any marketing by them . . . whatsoever and I work IN A PET STORE. . . I have however seen copious amounts of marketing from RC and Science Diet. I have worked in the pet industry since 2007 (no too long) but I didnt hear about Orijen until 2010 and that was because my boyfriend was feeding it, he heard about it from a friend. Acana, I didn't hear about them until coming here in Nov 2011. So really, how good is there marketing if someone who is always looking for a new good dog food had never heard of it?


THANK YOU! I have NEVER seen any type of advertising, posters, commercials, I've never even seen a sales rep, and NEVER been told by people working at pet stores to buy Orijen or Acana....However, I have seen countless advertisements, endorsements, merchandise with RC all over it. I even got a bunch of stuff that says "Royal Canin" from my old vet...I sooooo don't understand people that say "Champion has great marketing"...had I not gone past the advertising and done my own research, I still would never have heard of Champion Pet Foods!!! Any single thing I've ever heard about Champion was word of mouth, and good experience with it, THAT is good marketing, when a product speaks for itself and creates happy customers, a company that DOESN'T need to dish out merchandise with it's brand all over it, and doesn't need vets to help them sell it!!!

I can't stand it how the insults come out for people that swear by Champion products! "you've been suckered by their marketing"...actually no, the reason people feed it has NOTHING to do with their marketing (is there even marketing/advertising for Champion? where?) and everything to do with the great results people have seen in their pets. The only place I can find anything that says Champion/Orijen/Acana is on their website or on the bag of food...where it should be.

Sorry to rant, but OP, I just wanted to make clear that I recommended Champion products for better reasons than "their marketing". I've seen the improvements in my dogs, and I've heard many great experiences with it, THAT is my reason for recommending it. Good luck.


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## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

mythbuster said:


> You know you just might get your wish, so many of you spout off like you are experts but have NOTHING to back up what you're saying. I have had it with your ignorant comments and accusations. I put a lot of time and thought into my posts, and there are a lot of people who are much more deserving of my time and knowledge than a bunch of close minded big mouthed yuppies like yourself. .


HAHAHAHAHHA! Ha. Ha.


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## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

I guess I need to repeat myself, since you are so determined to ignore the facts.

The Dog Food Project - Ingredients to avoid

Cellulose


AAFCO: Purified, mechanically disintegrated cellulose prepared by processing alpha cellulose obtained as a pulp from fibrous plant materials.

_*Dried wood is the most common source for cellulose *(I'm not kidding.). It is cleaned, processed into a fine powder and used to add bulk and consistency to cheap pet foods. I would consider this ingredient appropriate for termites, but certainly not for dogs or cats. _

I love it when people start resorting to name calling.


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## Huginn (Nov 21, 2011)

DogLuver, I actually google searched for a marketing campaign for these foods before I made the post and all I could find was user reviews on dog food websites and forums like this. Even the videos where created by online companies that sell a lot of dog foods or by people like us who love to spread the word about high quality diets for our fur family.


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## mythbuster (Jan 23, 2012)

greyshadows said:


> Why is lamb considered "hypo allergic"? My vet says to try it to ease digestion. Is it because it is easier to digest? It doesn't seem common in many foods.


no, it's actually poorly digestible compared to a number of other protein sources, like chicken, corn gluten, and wheat gluten. However, if a dog has never eaten lamb before, it will not have antibodies to lamb protein, which would make it a novel protein, aka hypoallergenic diet for that dog.


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## mythbuster (Jan 23, 2012)

Huginn said:


> DogLuver, I actually google searched for a marketing campaign for these foods before I made the post and all I could find was user reviews on dog food websites and forums like this. Even the videos where created by online companies that sell a lot of dog foods or by people like us who love to spread the word about high quality diets for our fur family.


Have you seen their website or 'white pages'? Pure marketing. Nothing to support the nonsense they spout. And people believe it, and write about it all over the internet, so when people try to find real info all they get is forums full of people supporting nonsense because it sounds good to them.


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## mythbuster (Jan 23, 2012)

Huginn said:


> How ever, I do not feel that what you said to Xellil was necessary. She feels the same as all of us here, cellulose is not a good ingredient.


And what she and others have said to or about me is also unnecessary. 
Why do you feel cellulose is not a good ingredient? Because you have proof? Or because it doesn't make sense that something that can be sourced from sawdust could be beneficial?


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## Huginn (Nov 21, 2011)

I find it unnecessary to add an ingredient that cannot be digested to the diet of ANY animal. There is proof that it is not digestible and that is enough proof for me. 

I have only seen people saying that you must work for a pet food company. This is what happens when you come into a community that have all had very poor experiences with the foods that you recommend. However, I did not find any of the comments to be crossing the line. 

Yes, they have a website. Any reputable company should have a website listing their ingredients and mission, it also gives a source of contact for the company if a customer were to have a question. Simply having a website is not a marketing campaign . . .


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## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

mythbuster said:


> And what she and others have said to or about me is also unnecessary.
> Why do you feel cellulose is not a good ingredient? Because you have proof? Or because it doesn't make sense that something that can be sourced from sawdust could be beneficial?


Because a dog's natural food is not trees. I think a better question would be why IS it a good ingredient?

Or, you can just call me another name and say PTTTH real loud. That might work also.


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## NeilB (Feb 8, 2012)

Well thanks for all the input. I have read a lot of good stuff here - on this seemingly controversial topic! 
I appreciate all the advice and your expertise. 
I think I am going to do the following:
1. Get her stools analysed again to make sure there are no worm/parasite issues. Like I mentioned before, we have done this a few times in the last months and nothing has shown up.
2. I might give Acana a try. A number of people have mentioned it here as being a good food for their dogs, with better ingredients than some other foods. In dogfoodanalysis.com Orijin seems to come out more favourably but on this forum people seem to suggest than Acana might be a little easier on her stomach. Have I understood this right? Pricewise there is no difference between Orijin and Acana. Does anyone know if at 7 months I can give her the Wild Prairie/Pacifica/Grasslands food or is that just for adults or can puppies eat it too? If so, Is anyone better than another for dogs with sensative stomachs and loose stools? I know there is a Acana Puppy as well. There is a Acana Adult dog Lamb and Apple which is hypoallergenic. Do you think that, as an adult food, it wouldn't be suitable for her at 7 months?
Many thanks again. I will continue to read what people post here.
Have attached a photo of Sunday - the dog everyone is trying to help out - so you can see for yourselves what all the fuss is about!


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## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

Oh my she is adorable! I hope you find the right food for her. 

I can't help you with specific dog food, but here is a page I find very helpful - it's a list of bad dog food ingredients. These are the ones that you should avoid. Most high quality dog foods wont have these - but alot of very expensive foods DO have them.

The Dog Food Project - Ingredients to avoid


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## Huginn (Nov 21, 2011)

Awww what a cute baby! Dog food is definitely a controversial topic on this forum, but if you dig through the muck you find some really good info. I always advocate lamb diets for dogs with skin/digestive issues, my parents dogs were on a lamb based formula their entire lives (the don't believe in rotating proteins) and never had any skin/allergy problems. Most people will switch to an adult food at 6 months, while I prefer waiting a little longer. However, with all of the other less than desirable ingredients in the RC you could try the puppy formula of Acana and see how she does, even if it has chicken. If she does not improve then think about moving to the adult lamb formula.


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## PDXdogmom (Jun 30, 2010)

To the OP:

Acana Prairie, Grasslands and Pacifica are "all life stages" formulas; and as such, could be fed to your puppy.

I think much of your original concern about potential ingredient intolerances/allergies with your dog got lost in some people's debate about Orijen/Acana products versus RC products. That's unfortunate.

As I said in my post #15: Acana formulas are very complex with multiple protein and carb sources as well as botanicals. If a dog doesn't do well on them, it's next to impossible to determine what the offending ingredient is. I think you would be farther ahead to abandon both RC and Orijen/Acana products at the moment and find a very simple kibble formula to feed your dog. You can always look at the more "busy" formulas like Orijen/Acana in the future.

Also, no dog food formula is "hypoallergenic". What might not cause a problem for one dog, could cause all sorts of problems for another dog. I've never had problems with chicken as a protein for my dogs. Supposedly it has a more complete amino acid profile than any other meat.


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## DogLuver (Oct 19, 2011)

mythbuster said:


> Have you seen their website or 'white pages'? Pure marketing. Nothing to support the nonsense they spout. And people believe it, and write about it all over the internet, so when people try to find real info all they get is forums full of people supporting nonsense because it sounds good to them.


I've read the "white pages"...and it's also irrelevant to the reasoning I have to feed Champion Pet Foods to my dogs. I don't even really remember what the "white pages" say? But if that's what you consider marketing, compare that to Royal Canin? See the difference?

Mythbuster, I see you getting ahem..."attacked" here...I want you to know that there are open minded people here, they're just the ones that aren't saying anything perhaps. I am very open minded, I even began a thread to ask you and TheExpert personally what I should feed my dogs, and Royal Canin was the end result. I would be much more open minded if you weren't so focused on one company (one that I'm not fond of, but that's JMO), speaking of being more open minded...you just come off as kind of "narrow minded" towards Royal Canin.

Do you have proof...what are your sources...blah blah blah blah blah. This get's so tiresome when trying to truly understand what is the best I can do for my dogs, as they are the most important things in my life. Sometimes I have to stop and think "this is the internet, I don't know these people, and I can't make sense of what they're trying to tell me"...so the proof is my experiences and the sources are my dogs, my vet, my trainer, my friends/family's dogs. I hate resorting to this way of thinking, but sometimes it's all I got.

I got to thinking while watching TV yesterday. I was watching a commercial for Oral-B toothbrushes (lol I know I know, bare with me) and it says "the toothbrush most recommended by dentists, the toothbrush most dentists choose". That makes you think, well if the dentist uses it, it's gotta be the best, they know the results. But then I go to thinking, my sister-in-law is a dentist, and she has tons of oral-b and colgate stuff at home, because those companies send them boxes of stuff to hand out to patients, so...sure it's true that oral-B is the toothbrush most dentists use...because they GET IT FOR FREE, not because it's the best toothbrush out there!! That's typcial marketing. Everything we buy these days, it's a product that we've been sold on, for a company that wants us to choose their product over all other products out there. Kleenex vs Puffs, Apple vs Microsoft, Tampax vs Playtex, Pampers vs Huggies. All these companies do "studies and research" to prove their product is best. All these "studies and research" always prove that X company produces the best quality product. I just gotta say, marketing doesn't effect me anymore. X company can say their the greatest, and PROVE why and show their sources...but when people congregate in a forum like this, and share their experiences, the results of REAL people's experiences come out, and marketing doesn't matter anymore. I believe when I see hundreds of people saying that Xproduct they used worked great for them, that is good marketing. This is why I try to learn from forums, there are SOOOO many different opinions and experiences, sure some are bias, but when you see the amount of people agreeing on something because it WORKED for them, it can't be assumed that they're ALL naive and don't know what they're talking about.


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## Caty M (Aug 13, 2010)

I just want to add that another reason I prefer Orijen/Acana over some other companies is they source all of their ingredients from Canada (except a couple from the US). Much safer IMO than trusting companies in China with all the recalls and whatnot (not only talking about pet food). Does RC still source from China?


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## whiteleo (Sep 7, 2008)

mythbuster said:


> And what she and others have said to or about me is also unnecessary.
> Why do you feel cellulose is not a good ingredient? Because you have proof? Or because it doesn't make sense that something that can be sourced from sawdust could be beneficial?


Because Dogs are carnivores and DO NOT need or require crap like cellulose, have you ever looked in a dogs mouth? What do you see? Teeth that are made for ripping and tearing meat, not for eating cellulose!


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## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

whiteleo said:


> Because Dogs are carnivores and DO NOT need or require crap like cellulose, have you ever looked in a dogs mouth? What do you see? Teeth that are made for ripping and tearing meat, not for eating cellulose!


He's going to argue that dogs have molars for grinding. 

Mythbuster is being manipulative, trying to force people to prove that cellulose is bad. I am waiting for proof that it is good. 

There was a time when, if someone told me sawdust (corn, meat byproduct etc.) was good for my dogs and the explanation was couched in certain terms I believed it. I hope people coming here aren't fooled like I was at one time.

The thing is, I learned 90 percent of the stuff i know from people here. I don't want people leaving this site thinking "cellulose" is really ok. Because it's not.


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## Unosmom (May 3, 2009)

Do you have access to regular acana as well as grain free? so if the grain free doesent work, out, its worth trying the other one because it looks like grain inclusive only has one protein sourse as opposed to multiple in grain free line.


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## PDXdogmom (Jun 30, 2010)

Unosmom said:


> Do you have access to regular acana as well as grain free? so if the grain free doesent work, out, its worth trying the other one because it looks like grain inclusive only has one protein sourse as opposed to multiple in grain free line.


Good idea.


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## Jenny (Dec 7, 2010)

mythbuster said:


> For one thing, I would not call a grocery store food a good diet. For another, to address this: "if corn and its derivatives are so digestible, why do they give dogs giant smelly turds compares to those eating meat based kibble?" It depends on the quality of the ingredient and how the diets are made. Undigested protein increases bacterial fermentation in the colon, which leads to softer smellier poops.


Mythbuster, does this food seem good in your mind? 

Royal Canin Medium Adult (protein 25%, fat 13%) 
Ingredients: dehydrated poultry meat, corn flour, corn, wheat flour, animal fats, wheat, hydrolysed animal proteins, dehydrated pig proteins, beet pulp etc.

I can tell you, I have fed this food for a short time (because we got it for free), and it was awful! Dogs were very smelly and their poops... :wacko: I threw the rest of bag to the garbage and problem was solved. (They doesn't have any allergies.) I think this RC is compared to grocery store foods in quality, but not in price... It's three times more expensive than some chicken meal, rice and corn based dry foods at similar protein and fat level. Do you think it's worth it, being three times more expensive? 

I really wonder, why RC is doing this kind of food if they have made studies, what is best for dogs... Why dogs should eat so much grains? And why corn, which is not the best grain in digestibility, is used as a main ingredient in dog food?

By the way, do you think breed specific foods are needed or is it just marketing?


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## greyshadows (Jan 30, 2012)

I think perhaps there are breed specific foods. I was reading on the Internet an anthropologist that said your dog does best with foods native to their breed. For example, I have Weimaraners from northern Europe so they seem to do well on lamb, chicken, apples, veggies. A Newfoundland does well on fish, an Australian dog does well on lamb etc. I suppose it looks good in theory but I don't know if there is any hard research on this. It also might explain why purebreds seem to have more problems with their food while mixed breeds tolerate different foods better.


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## NeilB (Feb 8, 2012)

Thanks again for the advice.
Do you think that Acana Lamb and Apple food would be ok for her - she is just over 7 months now?
On the website it says for adult dogs over 1 year. However, considering I am looking for a 'simple' food without too many different ingredients/proteins to try and help her with her soft/loose poos, I thought it could be a good option. It claims to be hypoallergenic with oats listed as the only grain and lamb as the only protein. Someone had written that the level of calcium seemed high (1.8%), but another perosn had replied that dogs can pass any unnecessary calcium and that wasn't a problem. Any thoughts?
For me, living in Spain, price and availability are an important factor - obviously combined with quality. This product is 'reasonably priced' here and is available. 
Thanks.
Neil


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## Caty M (Aug 13, 2010)

I think the breed specific diet thing is absolutely.. ridiculous. Most dog breeds are under 300 years old. That's not NEARLY enough time to evolve to eat native foods. Evolution happens over hundreds of thousands to millions of years, not in a few hundred.. and kibbled diets have only been around for maybe 100. Before that dogs ate meat scraps and whatever they could find or catch. Dogs do best on a variety of meats, bones and organs. I don't think it matters a whole lot what species of animals they are eating and from what part of the world as long as they are getting sufficient variety of birds and mammals, and enough O3s from fish or grass fed meats.


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## Caty M (Aug 13, 2010)

The calcium/phosphorus level matters most with large breed dogs. Small breeds like your (adorable!) beagle do just fine on adult food. Most "stage" foods are a gimmick anyway. So the food seems just fine!

Might be worth doing rotation later on to get more variety, or adding some cooked meats to the meal. I think it's important to get some different protein sources in the dog's diet.


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## greyshadows (Jan 30, 2012)

I agree with you Caty on the fact that most modern dogs are young(evolutionary wise), but a lot of dogs and it seems purebreds have a lot of dietary issues. My brother has had four English sheepdogs over the course of his adult life and three of them were terribly allergic to fish, hives, convulsions etc. They were from different breeders and lineages. I guess maybe it could come from where they are geographically from, but I don't know....


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## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

greyshadows said:


> I agree with you Caty on the fact that most modern dogs are young(evolutionary wise), but a lot of dogs and it seems purebreds have a lot of dietary issues. My brother has had four English sheepdogs over the course of his adult life and three of them were terribly allergic to fish, hives, convulsions etc. They were from different breeders and lineages. I guess maybe it could come from where they are geographically from, but I don't know....


That's from inbreeding, not the basic makeup of the dog. Inbreeding in humans causes all kinds of problems - it's why we can't marry our siblings or our children. But in the dog world, it's accepted to father a child with your granddaughter. Small gene pool = alot of physical problems.


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## Caty M (Aug 13, 2010)

Yeah. It's exactly the same as how say, Westies are prone to a lot of skin problems, bedlingtons are prone to copper toxicosis, dalmatians to bladder stones. All inbreeding and genetics. That's not to say mixed breed dogs can't either, but I don't think it's quite as common. Danemama's mutt has really bad hips.

I think the healthiest breeds are generally ones that are working bred breeds- if a dog couldn't herd, hunt or whatever all day long, there was no point in it being bred back in the day. Those were genes they didn't want passed on. The strongest, healthiest dogs were the ones prized above all others. The "companion" bred breeds (cavaliers, chihuahuas etc) and the very common breeds (labs, german shepherds, bulldogs) as well as the breeds extreme in conformation (bulldogs, mastiffs etc) tend to have the worst health problems.


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