# Another Vet's response:



## MissusMac (Jan 6, 2011)

My cousin is a vet and I sent her an email just simply asking what her take on the raw diet is, and here is her response:

*Not just NO, but HELL NO! The DVM/PhD Animal Nutritionist, when I was in vet school, told us that this is an incredibly horrible diet for animals to be on. Most of the incredibly emaciated animals that I see at the clinic are on the BARF (Bones and Raw Food) diet. Raw chicken and eggs are an excellent source of Salmonella poisoning, raw beef is potentially contaminated with E. Coli, and raw pork can give you Trichinosis and/or Toxoplasmosis, just to name a few horrible things a person or animal can get from eating raw meat. Poultry bones and pork bones can splinter and cause gastrointestinal perforation. You also run the risk of nutritional deficiencies when you feed the raw diets. There are too many excellent commercial dog foods available to seriously consider these fad diets. Breeders will tell you that veterinarians do not know anything, but I always ask clients what school their breeder attended and what level of education their breeder has.

In case you are interested, I feed my babies Purina Pro Plan Chicken and Rice. You can purchase that dog food from PetSmart or PetCo. What ever diet you decide to go with, I recommend you gradually switch your baby so you do not give him diarrhea.*

I can't believe how vehemently she protests it! :shocked:


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## SpooOwner (Oct 1, 2010)

The only thing that interests me in her response is:



MissusMac said:


> Most of the incredibly emaciated animals that I see at the clinic are on the BARF (Bones and Raw Food) diet.


I wonder if this is true, and if so, why it is the case. From what I've read about BARF, dogs thrive on it. The only explanations I can think of are (1) the owners aren't feeding the right amounts, (2) the owners are screwing up the balance of muscle : bone : veg (or however they divide the diet), or (3) a combination of both.

Everything else in her response is contradicted by our collective experience.


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## MissusMac (Jan 6, 2011)

SpooOwner said:


> The only thing that interests me in her response is:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


This is what I was wondering, too. Along with your explanations, I was also thinking the dogs may have had untreated worms.

It just makes me sad, because we are close and it sounds like she wouldn't be open to doing more research. 

We'll see her this weekend and I will talk to her some more about it, but my husband is already on the fence about feeding raw and I don't want him to hear her argument and just go back to being a non-believer. I've given him all the references to the research I've done as well as the forums, so he should be able to read what I have and see that the proof is in the pudding.


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## Ania's Mommy (Feb 8, 2009)

SpooOwner: I wonder if there are vets out there who have seen so many overweight dogs that they have started to see it as common. I see many many MANY more overweight dogs than I do healthy ones.

From my experience, people who have done their research and feed any sort of raw diet ALSO are more familiar with what an in-shape dog looks like; waist, tucked tummy, etc. 

I'm wondering if many of the "emaciated" dogs that she sees are in fact well built, in-shape dogs. I can't tell you how many people have told me that Ania is way too skinny.

I dunno. Just a theory...


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## MissusMac (Jan 6, 2011)

I also wonder who her Animal Nutritionist at school was.... she went to Texas A&M so there are a couple of different professors with "Animal Nutrition" under their label.


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## SpooOwner (Oct 1, 2010)

I think worms and/or a misunderstanding of what healthy actually looks like are both possible. I guess I didn't think about worms, because its inconceivable to me that someone would blame emaciation on raw rather than the more obvious culprit, worms. And I had forgotten that vets - like many AKC judges - think fat = healthy. I must have been hanging out with y'all for too long, and I've forgotten mainstream approaches to vet issues


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## BrownieM (Aug 30, 2010)

I agree...I think its plausible that the dogs were either A) a healthy weight that the vets are unaccustomed to seeing, B) not being fed enough or C) had worms.

It really bugs me when vets are so extremely against raw. You know why? Because I actually have been lucky enough to have always had open minded vets. Henry's traditional vet admitted that he doesn't usually _suggest_ raw diets to people BUT after Henry bloated he said *he would give it a try if he were in our shoes.* That just proves to me that raw feeding is not a fad, rather, it is a progressive idea. And this is saying something as I live in the midwest - not exactly the most progressive of areas in the United States. 

My integrative (holistic x traditional) vet is a huge supporter of raw feeding. I also know of another vet in St. Louis who promotes raw feeding in certain circumstances. Finally, we KNOW that wolf sanctuaries feed raw AND that sled dogs are often fed a raw diet. Clearly these animals are fed raw for a reason.

Again, the fact that there are enlightened vets out there who DO believe raw is a beneficial diet to dogs implies, in my mind, that raw feeding is not a fad but instead is a progressive idea.


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## practicalfeeder (Feb 12, 2011)

*I think it might be time to say bye to practicalfeeder*



SpooOwner said:


> The only thing that interests me in her response is:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


This is true. It is best for people to stop pretending they are nutritionists and feed their dogs what professionals and experts feed theirs. Turn the TV on tonight and watch the Sporting Group at Westminster. 99% of those dogs eat Pro Plan, Royal Canin 4800 or Eukanuba. Even with sled dogs, the dry diets have become so good that raw feeding is fading there as well.


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## Gradiose (Feb 10, 2011)

Can't tell you how many times I've had people tell me how "horribly skinny" my Pointers are that were in perfect weight (in shape, hard muscles, waistline, maybe last 1 or two ribs showing). I just shake my head and walk away now. Thankfully my vets understand good weight on a dog and commend me for not keeping them fat.
Seriously though? America as a whole needs to re-evaluate what a healthy dog body looks like!!!
I've never seen an "emaciated" dog that was fed any form of raw diet.


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## DaneMama (Jun 27, 2008)

Sounds to me like one scared vet....all I can say is that response is rather pathetic at best.


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## RawFedDogs (Jun 16, 2008)

practicalfeeder said:


> This is true. It is best for people to stop pretending they are nutritionists and feed their dogs what professionals and experts feed theirs.


Baloney! Look what dogs have eaten for a million years and thrived before humans intervened and started feeding artificial inappropriate foods. You won't find a nutritionist in the world that doesn't work for a dog food company that will tell you that highly processed "artificial" foods are healthier or more nutritious than fresh whole foods. EVERY time you see a nutritionist on TV they are telling us to eat fresh whole foods. Stay away from fast foods. Stay away from processed foods. FEED WHOLE FRESH FOODS!.

I'd like to see these dog food companies come out with a scientific study indicating that their artificial highly processed foods made from refuse from human food processing plants is anywhere nearly as healthy and nutritious as a prey model raw diet or even nearly as healthy and nutritious as a BARF diet. It can't be done. They can't produce such a study. You can't prove something that isn't so. 

They can use a lot of smoke and mirrors and hire a great marketing department to convince people their food is better but they can't come up with a scientific study proving it. They can spend a lot of money on vet schools convincing vet students that their food is superior. They can hire reps to vist vets offices to convince vets that their food is superior but they can't come up with a study proving it.

They take garbage refuge from human food processing plants, grind it, cook it, extrude it, add used restaurant greese to give flavor, they can include inappropriate ingredients such as rice, corn, wheat, barley, etc to hold down price but they can't come up with a study saying its superior to a diet of whole raw meat, bones, and organs.

Why do you think they add all those vitamins and minerals to kibble? Because they want our dogs healthy? Heck no! They have to add them because they just cooked all those nutrients out in the manufacturing process. Did they get the right nutrients back in right amounts? I doubt it. Did they leave something out? Probably.

And yes, vets see so many bloated obese dogs today because of this carb heavy junk food we are feeding them that the don't know what a healthy dog should look like. They call healthy dogs emaciated. There are vets that are the exception to this but not nearly enough.

*ETA:* Your one small animal nutrition course didn't go nearly far enough. There is a reason that you are taught so little about nutrition.

*ETA AGAIN:* The bearded moderator had a clue before you ever got into high school. :biggrin:


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## monkeys23 (Dec 8, 2010)

I agree, most people think obese = normal in pets. Kind of sad really.

My sled dog mutts are thriving. The foster girl is actually filling out with raw.... hmmm biologically appropriate perhaps?


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## bernadettelevis (Feb 2, 2011)

many people tell me that my dog is too skinny but he is just perfect...

i only started on rw about two weeks ago, but he has already gained some weight..so i guess i need to be careful :biggrin:


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## lauren43 (Feb 6, 2011)

The fact she is a vet and feeds purina is enough for me. She obiviously has done little to no research on proper dog diets. There are many other options than purina...


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## JayJayisme (Aug 2, 2009)

Ridiculous. Exactly the kind of hysteria that drives the pet food industry. This is right out of their playbook. Even if you wanted to believe this crap, you would have to question the respondent's credibility once you get to the bottom and read that they feed Purina Pro Plan. :rofl:

Sorry but your cousin has been brainwashed by all the nonsense and platitudes generated by the pet food industry. Look through the forum archives here and you will see that the subject of nutritional training that vets receive has been discussed ad nauseam. Not only do they get very little training, most of the schools have these credit courses sponsored by companies in the pet food industry, namely Hills. If that isn't a conflict of interest and completely corrupt, I don't know what is. 

I'll bet your cousin can't cite one confirmed instance of Samonella poisoning, E. Coli, Trichinosis, Toxoplasmosis cases directly related to feeding raw meat to a dog or cat, or injury from RAW bones of any kind. These are platitudes that vets repeat over and over again out of ignorance, not from experience.


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## candiceb (Jan 22, 2010)

MissusMac said:


> I also wonder who her Animal Nutritionist at school was.... she went to Texas A&M so there are a couple of different professors with "Animal Nutrition" under their label.


I think you hit the nail on the head there. My last semester senior year there (May 2010) I took a class called "Companion Animal Science" as an elective. Out of a class of probably 50 people, I was one of maybe 4 that was not a Biomedical Science major (the classic pre-med/vet major there), and even less than that of us weren't planning on going to vet school. 

The class was a complete joke. Not because it was ridiculously easy (though it was), but because of the information that was presented, and by one of A&M's top research vets at that! In our textbook I had to read about the importance of carbohydrates in our pet "omnivore's" diets. I was forced to look at prescription formulas with such "high quality" proteins as brewers rice. :yuck:

So let's say of the 50 people in that class, 48 will go on to be vets. Unless they also believe in raw (or at least holistic and natural) feeding, that means there's another 48 people A&M is spewing out who will have similar responses when questioned about such a diet. And based on conversations I had with other students during group projects during class, I don't think any one of them were open-minded enough to consider it. My own god-sister was in the class with me (she's in vet school now, sad to say), and went on and on about how Science Diet is the only thing her dog can eat, even though they still have to give her medication and steroid shots all the time for her allergies. She laughed at the concept of even a grain-free diet.

They are absolutely brain-washed there. The nutritional training they get is at best pitiful, and I consider it to be worse than no nutritional education at all, as it seems they are only fed garbage from Hills. I am *so* glad that I decided not to pursue that career choice early on. I don't think I could deal with that crap they peddle off as fact.


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## hamblekg (Feb 1, 2011)

Don't forget most vets also SELL a kibble dog food. If you look up the food value of their brands they are generally only middle of the road foods not even close to the higher end kibbles for dogs. There is a real conflict of interest here in what they are selling and what they are recommending for the so-called greater good of the dog.


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## xxshaelxx (Mar 8, 2010)

practicalfeeder said:


> This is true. It is best for people to stop pretending they are nutritionists and feed their dogs what professionals and experts feed theirs. Turn the TV on tonight and watch the Sporting Group at Westminster. 99% of those dogs eat Pro Plan, Royal Canin 4800 or Eukanuba. Even with sled dogs, the dry diets have become so good that raw feeding is fading there as well.
> 
> There are too many people parading around like experts, especially the bearded moderator, that don't have clue.


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## SamWu1 (Oct 15, 2010)

Isn't there an anti-troll software that can be implemented to prevent Practicalfeeder and the like from wasting bandwidth?


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## rannmiller (Jun 27, 2008)

SamWu1 said:


> Isn't there an anti-troll software that can be implemented to prevent Practicalfeeder and the like from wasting bandwidth?


If only! But that's what us mods are for, right? :smile: 

I vote we send this vet pics and stories of our dogs and see what she thinks of them!


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## RawFedDogs (Jun 16, 2008)

SamWu1 said:


> Isn't there an anti-troll software that can be implemented to prevent Practicalfeeder and the like from wasting bandwidth?


There's a mouse on your computer that allows you to scroll by whatever post you don't want to read.


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## G_slave01 (Dec 24, 2010)

This vet sounds hysterical. Not the kind of person I would want treating my dog in an emergency. Its the usual rhetoric with nothing but suppositions. A lot of could be’s and what if’s. I could fall of my horse and break my neck, I could cross the street and get hit by a car, I could choke on the olive in my martini........ Life is hazardous and unpredictable 4 sure ----“its a dangerous business Frodo going out your door”-----and I suppose anything is possible but if it was so bloody dangerous & life threatening why are these vets not all clamouring to post their personal clinical experiences somewhere. All I have managed to find is just the same vague opinion almost verbatim. It sounds like they are all reading from a press release. 

Emaciated is a such a strong word and the only thing that comes to my mind in hearing that word in the context of describing an animal is abuse. Tear jerking dreadful images in your local newspapers (or on tv) of a rescued animal that has been purposefully starved. I can’t imagine that it could be a word associated with a dog being lovingly fed kibble, raw or homecooked. 

Isy


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## Herzo (Feb 5, 2011)

practicalfeeder said:


> This is true. It is best for people to stop pretending they are nutritionists and feed their dogs what professionals and experts feed theirs. Turn the TV on tonight and watch the Sporting Group at Westminster. 99% of those dogs eat Pro Plan, Royal Canin 4800 or Eukanuba. Even with sled dogs, the dry diets have become so good that raw feeding is fading there as well.


I don't know if you remember Rufus the colored Bull Terrier but he is raw fed.He was beautiful.Oh and he was Best In Show I'm not sure what year.


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## Caty M (Aug 13, 2010)

I can't help but think that the majority of people who feed raw or even BARF know much much more about nutrition than veterinarians. Before I got my first ever pup last year, I had no idea about raw feeding and just wanted to know a really good kibble to feed, but did months of research and decided this was the way to go. Don't vets get less than three weeks of animal nutrition?


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## Chocx2 (Nov 16, 2009)

My friend who is a vet is about dito on what she has to say about raw, but her friend, another vet I used was against it but has since gone back to a nutrition class and now is "curing" dogs and cats with issues, she states are brought on by kibble.. It only took one class!!!! For her I think some people are just stubborn and set in there ways and that is all it is

I have to say also in the year or more that I have been feeding my dogs raw she has changed her opion about one of my dogs in particular because she no longer gets bloat. Stating that its ok since she does well on it but its not for every dog.. Very confusing

People are scared of change, I was, but I did it, changed my dogs to raw and wouldn't have it any other way!!


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## Kofismom (Sep 14, 2010)

*MM, it was recommended to*

me to take the book Raw Meaty Bones Promote Health to my vet. It's a wonderful choice to inform them of the benefits of feeding raw.
Dr. Tom Lonsdale a well qualified veterinary surgeon in Australia, and he addresses each issue as a well informed Doctor.
I took a copy of my Vet to keep in his library.
Hope all will be well between you and your friend.


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## naturalfeddogs (Jan 6, 2011)

MissusMac said:


> My cousin is a vet and I sent her an email just simply asking what her take on the raw diet is, and here is her response:
> 
> *Not just NO, but HELL NO! The DVM/PhD Animal Nutritionist, when I was in vet school, told us that this is an incredibly horrible diet for animals to be on. Most of the incredibly emaciated animals that I see at the clinic are on the BARF (Bones and Raw Food) diet. Raw chicken and eggs are an excellent source of Salmonella poisoning, raw beef is potentially contaminated with E. Coli, and raw pork can give you Trichinosis and/or Toxoplasmosis, just to name a few horrible things a person or animal can get from eating raw meat. Poultry bones and pork bones can splinter and cause gastrointestinal perforation. You also run the risk of nutritional deficiencies when you feed the raw diets. There are too many excellent commercial dog foods available to seriously consider these fad diets. Breeders will tell you that veterinarians do not know anything, but I always ask clients what school their breeder attended and what level of education their breeder has.
> 
> ...


typical response.:doh:Thats why I just don't even mention it.


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