# At Look at the Ingredients of Abady Dog Food: Just the Facts



## SuZQuzie

*A Look at the Ingredients of Abady Dog Food: Just the Facts*

I will attempt to remain as objective as possible during this analysis. Sorry if it is consequently a bit dense.

Based on the Abady Classic Formula for Maintenance and Stress

*Chicken By-Products Meal* AAFCO definition: "consists of the ground, rendered, clean parts of the carcass of slaughtered chicken, such as necks, feet, undeveloped eggs and intestines, exclusive of feathers, except in such amounts as might occur unavoidable in good processing practice"; A very vague product with a high amount of variability. While the nutrient composition is comparable to chicken meal, it is not as digestible to the animal.

*White Rice* Inexpensive energy source. Low nutrient quantities.

*Menhaden Fish Meal* Not used for human consumption because Menhaden fish spoil very quickly along with having a low palatibility. A very bony fish. Must be rendered and preserved immediately to maintain product viability. Most importantly, Menhaden contain an enzyme called thiaminase which can cause thiamine deficiencies. Being the third ingredient on the list, this is concerning and the diet must be fortified with substantial amounts of thiamine to counteract the thiaminase. It is possible that the thiaminase may denature the thiamine present in this feed, so it may be necessary to supplement. High in DHA and EPA forms of linoleic acid.

*Lard* AAFCO definition: "the rendered fat of swine." A low grade fat with a high palatibility. While it is very high in linoleic acid (Omega 6 fatty acids), the important of the two essential fatty acids is not the quantity, but the ratio between the two. Linolenic acid (Omega 3) deficiency is much more common than linoleic acid deficiencies. It is very low in linoleic acid. Inexpensive energy source. High in cholesterol. Low nutrient density.

*Safflower Oil*: Good source of linoleic acid. Very heat stable. 

*Beef Fat* Interchangeable with tallow. AAFCO definition: "Fat with titer above 40 degrees Celsius, obtained from the tissue of cattle in the commercial process of rendering." Very low in linoleic acid, while high in linolenic acid. High palatibility. Inexpensive energy source. High in cholesterol. Low nutrient density.

*Dicalcium Phosphate* High in both calcium and phosphorus.

*Beef Meat and Bone Meal* AAFCO definition: "The rendered product from beef tissues, including bone, exclusive of any added blood, hair, hoof, horn, hide trimmings, manure, stomach and rumen contents, except in such amounts as may occur unavoidably in good processing practices." A very vague and variable product. While high in protein, it has poor nutrient availability to the animal. 

*Potassium Chloride*: An inexpensive inorganic source of potassium with low availability to the animal. 

*Undefatted Beef Liver*: No AAFCO definition available. Possibly high in fat since liver is usually very high in fat unless defatted. Generally, liver is very nutrient dense and contains substantial quantities of Vitamin A, Iron, and 5 B Vitamins. One should use caution when feeding liver, however, since vitamin A is present in a form that is not able to be regulated by the body and may result in Vitamin A toxicity.

*Flaxseed Oil*: High in linolenic acid in the form of ALA. ALA is unusuable to the canine; only EPA and DHA are available.

*Whey Protein Concentrate*: Inexpensive protein source with high bioavailability.

*Choline Chloride*: High in choline (a B vitamin). Negatively affects the stability of several vitamin and inorganic mineral sources, including Vitamin A, K3 (menadione sodium bisulfite complex), thiamine mononitrate and niacinamide. A less expensive and less bioavailable source of choline compared to lecithin.

*Natural Flavor*: AAFCO definition: "A substance, such as an extract or spice, that add flavor to a product." It could be any substance that adds flavor. 

*Menhaden Fish Oil*: An inexpensive by-product of making menhaden fish meal. No vitamins or minerals present. Good energy source. High in DHA and EPA forms of linoleic acid. High in linolenic acid.

*Ferrous Sulfate*: An inexpensive inorganic source of iron with low bioavailability. Can affect the availability of other nutrients.

*d-Alpha Tocopheryl Acetate*: A synthetic vitamin E supplement. Contains half the bioavailability of organic sources of vitamin E.

*Magnesium Oxide*: An inexpensive inorganic source of magnesium with low bioavailability.

*Zinc Oxide*: An inexpensive inorganic source of zinc with low bioavailability.

*Ascorbic Acid*: Vitamin C.

*Vitamin A Acetate*: An inexpensive source of vitamin A used in place of beta-carotene. Unlike beta-carotene, the uptake of vitamin A from vitamin A acetate is unable to be regulated by the body posing a risk for vitamin A toxicity.

*Taurine*: An essential amino acid for dogs, source unspecified.

*Niacinamide*: A source of niacin. Absorbancy is affected by choline chloride which is also present in this product.

*d-Calcium Pentothenate*: A synthetic form of pentothenic acid (B5). Shown to have similar availability to natural sources.

*Inositol*: Vitamin B8.

*Citrus Bioflavonoid Complex*: A source of antioxidants derived from citrus fruits.

*Ergocalciferol*: An animal-derived source of vitamin D. Usually unnecessary in animals with adequate access to the outdoors.

*Manganese Sulfate*: An inexpensive inorganic source of manganese with low bioavailability.

*Riboflavin*: A B complex vitamin.

*Potassium Iodide*: An inorganic source of iodine. Frequently shown to cause reactions due to sensitivity including goiter formation, exhaustion, and painful muscles. Iodine sensitivity is a fairly common sensitivity. Poor regulation of uptake of iodine from this source can result in toxicity. 

*Phytonadione*: A plant-based source of vitamin K. Vitamin K supplementation is unnecessary in dogs with a healthy microbial population.

*Thiamin Hydrochloride*: An inexpensive inorganic source of thiamine with low bioavailability.

*Pyridoxine Hydrochloride*: An inexpensive inorganic source of pyridoxine with low bioavailability.

*Cupric Oxide*: An inexpensive inorganic source of copper with low bioavailability. A confirmed neurotoxin. 

*Chromium GTF* An organic source of the trace mineral chromium with a high bioavailability.

*Sodium Selenite*: An inexpensive inorganic source of selenium with low bioavailability. Overdose may result in selenosis, but this is true for an selenium-containing compound.

*Folic Acid*: Vitamin B6. Source not confirmed.

*Biotin*: Vitamin B7. 

*Cyanocobalamin Concentrate*: Source of B12.



Concerns:
-Absence of a muscle meat with high nutrient availability
-High concentrations of linoleic acid and low concentrations of linolenic acid
-Use of protein-dense supplements to bolster protein counts
-The use of mineral products with low bioavailability
-Contains two compounds that alter the actual amount of thiamine in the feed
-Contains potassium iodide
-Contain cupric oxide




-BEYOND THIS POINT, I AM NO LONGER COMPLETELY OBJECTIVE-

Is every ingredient in this feed bad? No.

Would I feel comfortable feeding some of the ingredients of this feed to my dogs? Yes.

Would I feed this recipe of Abady dog food to my dogs? No.




ants: That took way too much work.


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## SuZQuzie

Sources:

Animal Feeding and Nutrition by Jergens and Bregendahl
Nutrient Requirements of Dogs and Cats by the NRC
AAFCO Pet Food and Specialty Pet Food Labeling Guide by the AAFCO
Various Material Safety Data Sheets (MSDS) from Actio Co.
Companion Animal Nutrition by Ackerman
Principles of Companion Animal Nutrition by McNamara
Organic Chemistry by Wade
Comparative Animal Biochemistry by Urich
Clinical Biochemistry of Domestic Animals by Kaneko, Harvey, and Bruce
And the beloved NutritionData.com


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## DaneMama

Someone should have done this a *long *time ago :biggrin:

Although, to be fair, a similar breakdown should be done on Orijen and EVO.... :wink:


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## SuZQuzie

danemama08 said:


> Although, to be fair, a similar breakdown should be done on Orijen and EVO.... :wink:


Hahahaha, YOU get to do those ones! Maybe in a few weeks. Heck, maybe I'll start a series. :biggrin:


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## claybuster

Yes, we all know about the defintions, and most know about the sources, all connections within the industry with interests to protect (money). I will address some of these as done in the past when time allows. Right now I have to split some firewood, take my daughter to Game Stop for a trade and try to watch/listen to football. Bye for now!


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## rannmiller

Go Colts! Still undefeated!


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## claybuster

*Part 1: more facts*

Definitions are subject to the thoughts feelings of those who write them and some obvious bias comes into play. They can choose to make them as glamorous or disgusting as the author sees fit. AAFCO would support industry definition, because they believe what the industry would tell them to be true. Interestingly enough, the foods people would assert as being 'crap' diets like Purina, Hills, Euk, are the big players in the industry. They are also the ones who did research and no doubt played a role in defining ingredients. People may not care for their products, but view their philosophy of defining ingredients as gospel. I am going to concentrate on three of the above listed in the opening post, Chicken By-Product Meal, Menhaden Fish Meal, and Lard.

*Chicken By Product Meal*

Here is what Diamond feeds have to say about CBPM:



> Chicken By-Product Meal
> Animal source protein, made up mostly of internal organs such as liver, digestive tract, and kidneys. The intestines are a good source of smooth muscle protein. Fifteen percent of the meal includes meat and bone. No feathers. This ingredient is very digestible and very low in ash.


CBPM-DIAMOND

Compare that to the AAFCO definition quoted by Suzzie, one might get the impression we're talking about two different ingredients. Bias does play a factor in what your are led to believe, and up to you the reader to decide what you choose to believe.

What is the Abady approach to CBPM? What is best for the animal of course, and here are some quotes to think about: (I know Suzzie can keep with this, but not sure about the rest; well ramiller of course but that goes without saying)



> When ingredients are selected for the production of dog food, there are many different factors that enter into the equation. An ingredient's nutritional yield versus its cost is central to sound dietary construction.
> For example -- If ingredient A is *nutritionally equivalent *to ingredient B, but B costs 3 times as much for the same quantity of A, *then the manufacturer who uses ingredient A can include 3 times more of it in his ration than the manufacturer using ingredient B and therefore can offer three times more nutrition at no greater cost.*Ultimately, what a manufacturer spends on ingredients is a major determinant of the selling price of nutritional products, therefore the manufacturer who uses ingredient A can offer a significantly better product than the manufacturer who uses ingredient B, for the same cost to the consumer if all other factors are equal.
> If a manufacturer were to include one and a half times as much of ingredient A as the manufacturer who uses ingredient B, the product manufactured with ingredient A could still be 50% more nutritious than the one that includes ingredient B yet it could cost less. While any dog food maker who puts nutrition first should be aware of these basic principles, as is the Abady Company, increasing numbers of manufacturers are producing diets that are built around the equivalent of ingredient B. By reading this article, *the buyer of dog food can learn which feeds are predicated more on marketing (sales appeal) than on sound nutrition.*


pinnacle

Important info in that quote above, especially three times as much protein for the same cost. Remember Abady is about what is best for the animal, not aesthetics or sales appeal. Also important, note nutritionally equivalent.

More about CBPM from Abady:



> *By-Products (internal organs) play a central role in the feeding of carnivores, as do muscle meat, fat and bone.*
> Poultry by-products meal is an economical and nutritious source of high quality animal protein.
> It is composed of lungs, heads, gizzards, necks, feet, intestines (without their contents) and other clean parts of the carcass.
> Nutritionally it is equal to superior to the ingredients discussed earlier and it costs many multiples less.
> 
> It is not true that heads or even feet (which represent only a small component of poultry by-products meal) are undesirable as components of dog food.
> *While they have little aesthetic appeal to humans, heads contain valuable brain, tongue and ocular tissue, and feet are 20% protein & 16% fat.*
> Both are rich in various amino acids and fatty acids of the most important varieties.
> Among these can be found *Arginine (essential for fertility and immune system support) Glycine (a potent free-radical scavenger and a component of glucose tolerance factor which regulates insulin metabolism) and Aspartic acid (which helps with the synthesis of glycoprotein and with the detoxification of ammonia). *Feathers are NOT a component of poultry by-products meal, unless it is of very low quality.


pinnacle

Remember, costing less because of that appeal means 3X's as much can be offered to the animal.

Doubts about nutritionally equivelant? Please do some comparisons for yourself:

griffin-chicken meal

griffin-PBPM

Looking at the numbers, you can clearly see one holds no distinct advantatge over the other...except for costs.

Again, Abady on CBPM and as to why it is used:



> Poultry or chicken by-products meals are among the most nutritious sources of protein available to dog food makers today. They are often the nutritional equivalent of muscle meat. *Because they are not consumed by people their cost is relatively low and can be used abundantly in rations while keeping the cost of the food moderate and the quality high. Intelligent dog food producers (like Abady) recognize this and take full advantage of it.* In fact, it is impossible to make a dog or cat food today that contains enough quality animal protein without the liberal inclusion of by-products.


How To Choose


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## claybuster

*Part II: more facts*

*Menhaden Fish Meal*

Terrible description in the definition quoted in the opening post. More bias and author opinion. Again up to the authors personal opinion and bias, or maybe just who they work for?

What is it? Look at the Wiki information. Take note in the upper right hand corner of each page *Scientific Classification.*

Menhaden

Herring

Did you note the scientific classification? They are indeed the same family.

What other foods do we find this ingredient? Orijen and EVO both contain the same ingredient, called Herring meal. Abady calls it Menhaden Fish meal, in essence the same ingredient. What do they have to say by definition?



> Herring meal is the clean, rendered (cooked down), dried ground tissue of undecomposed whole herring or herring cuttings, either or both, with or without the extraction of part of the oil.
> 
> Herring meal is a good source of Omega 3 fatty acids. Natura uses the whole herring including the oil from this excellent food fish in our cat and dog food products.


EVO product...see ingredient

Orijen


> Loaded with bio-available protein, herring is considered as "brain food" for its rich DHA and EPA Omega-3 fatty acid content.


orijen

Taste of the Wild...they don't bother to call it Menhaden or Herring Meal, they just call it Ocean Fish Meal....how generic!



> Ocean fish meal
> A high quality source of protein and omega-3 fatty acids. The omega-3 fatty acids from marine sources, EPA and DHA, provide nutrition for optimal skin and coat health as well as excellent overall health.


Taste of...

I don't think they're fooling anybody, we all know what it is. So, what on earth makes you think Herring meal or Ocean Fish Meal is any better than Menhaden. It is not. Same family, same scientific classification, and the definitions is subject to that bias. Choose what you wish to believe, but what you can trust is what Abady has to say about this whole shooting match...remember in essence we are talking about the same ingredient, so EVO feeders, Orijen feeders, please read the following for a better understanding of why it is in the mix (just substitute the word herring for menhaden and you're all set):




> Menhaden contains *only one third as much salt *as meat meal and less than either lamb or chicken meal, yet contains more than *double the amount of natural potassium *than lamb meal and 53% percent more than meat meal.
> 
> Menhaden's protein profile is also without peer.
> 
> It contains *91% more Lysine per gram *than meat meal, 65% more than lamb meal, and 35% more than chicken meal. *Lysine is essential for dogs to attain their maximum growth.*
> There is *146% more Tryptophan in Menhaden *than is found in lamb meal, 66% more than in meat meal and 20% more than in chicken meal. Tryptophan is a nutrient affecting *brain chemistry and neuro-transmitter function.*
> There is *60% more Valine in Menhaden *than in meat meal and 30% more than in lamb meal. *Valine is involved in muscle metabolism*.
> 
> There is *161% more Methionine in Menhaden *than in meat meal, 140% more than in lamb meal and 57% more than in poultry meal. *Methionine is an anti-oxidant and free radical scavenger and is vital in forming the structure of nucleic acids, collagen and in the ability of each cell to synthesize protein. It also supports the immune system.*
> There is *90% more Tyrosine in Menhaden *than in meat meal, 70% more than in lamb meal, and 17% more than in poultry meal. *Tyrosine is essential in the production of thyroid hormones. A deficiency can cause thyroid problems. Tyrosine is also vital in maintaining pigment in skin, coat and soft tissue, preventing them against colour changes.*
> 
> Low blood pressure (not uncommon in small dogs and toy breeds) can also result from inadequate levels of Tyrosine.
> 
> There are significantly larger amounts of *Glutamic Acid, Histadine, Aspartic Acid, Threonine, Phenylalanine, Leucine and Isoleucine (all vital amino acids) than are found in any of the other meals. *
> Last but not least in Menhaden's uniquely fatty acid content.
> 
> There are two types of fat required for animal survival - the visible or hard fat and the unsaturated or invisible fats.
> 
> The invisible fats form part of the structural material in the cells of many of the body's vital organs, i.e. the brain, heart, kidneys, testes, thyroid, spleen and muscle cells.
> 
> There are two critically needed unsaturated invisible fatty acids - Linoleic and Linolenic.
> 
> Linoleic acid is fairly abundant in some vegetable oils and is found in variable amounts in some animal meals. Linolenic Acid, on the other hand, has virtually disappeared from commercially prepared animal meals as a result of modern commercial farming and feeding practices. As a result, Linolenic Acid does not appear at all, or appears only anecdotally in many commercial dog foods.
> 
> Although the dogs body can manufacture a *facsimile of Linolenic Acid if there is an abundance of Linoleic Acid (which is rarely the case) the facsimile made by the body is but a poor imitation of the original linolenic and therefore cannot perform the complex intra-cellular functions of the original. *
> 
> Progressive retinal atrophy and other eye disorders, as well as thyroid, kidney, malformations of the brain and heart are becoming increasingly more common in dogs. Linolenic Acid is vital for the formation, maintenance and function of these organs. A shortfall of this critical nutrient in commercial canine diets should be a matter of growing concern to dog owners.To make matters worse, dog food manufacturers have no incentive to include Linolenic Acid in their diets or assure its availability, since the standards generally used by the Industry are based on the previous erroneous scientific position that the facsimile of Linolenic Acid made by the body from Linoleic Acid functions as an adequate substitute for the original.
> 
> Bad as the situation is concerning the virtually non-existent supply of Linolenic Acid in commercial diets, it is made even worse because the availability of even a limited supply is put into question by popular methods of manufacturing dog food. Baking and extruding chunks with steam, under pressure, are known to interfere with the release and, therefore, availability of both Linoleic and Linolenic Acids.
> 
> No such problems exist with feeds manufactured by the Abady Company, since *abundant supplies of Menhaden fish meal included in every formulation insure that each diets contains thousands of milligrams of Linolenic Acid and Linoleic Acid.*
> Equally important is the Abady Company's original two-step, low heat manufacturing process which insures the availability of both of these essential nutrients.
> 
> *Cold-water free-ranging Menhaden is one of the richest sources of Linoleic and Linolenic Acids in the world*.


the best

If you see herring meal, ocean fish meal, Menhaden fish meal, you now know its importance. Don't be fooled or deterred by how one chooses to describe ingredients, including AAFCO writers. Herring meal, will spoil just like menhaden meal and as quickly if that is the case, we're talking about the same stuff.


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## claybuster

*Part III: more facts*

*Lard*

What a nasty definition by AFFCO. A real turn off ehh? I know it is when you read what THEY want you to believe...for whatever reasons...costs maybe?

Taking a closer look:



> Rendered fat from pig carcasses (sheep and cattle are also used). The best quality is from the fat surrounding the kidneys; neutral lard is the highest quality, prepared by agitating the minced fat with water at a temperature below 50 °C; kidney fat provides No. 1 quality; back fat provides No. 2 quality.
> 
> Leaf lard is made from the residue of kidney and back fat after the preparation of neutral lard by heating with water above 100 °C in an autoclave. Prime Steam Lard is fat from any part of the carcass, rendered in the autoclave.
> 
> Lard used to be stored in pig's bladder, hence the expression ‘bladder of lard’ for a grossly obese person.


answrs.lrd



> Lard has clearly won the health debate. Shortening, the synthetic substitute foisted on this country over the last century, has proven to be a much bigger health hazard because it contains trans fats, the bugaboo du jour. Corporate food scientists figured out long ago that you can fool most of the people most of the time, and shortening (and its butter-aping cousin, margarine) had a pretty good ride after Crisco was introduced in 1911 as a substitute for the poor man’s fat.


A.Sorkin



> The latest studies amazingly show that lard isn’t harmful, as it was thought, but healthy! The lard contains the arachidonic acid that relates to polyunsaturated fatty acids (Omega-6). Omega-6 is part of heart, brain and kidney tissues and essential for their proper functioning. The lard has anticancer effect as the most of carcinogens dissolve in fatty acids. As the arachidonic acid can improve metabolism and dissolve cholesterol, the lard helps remove toxins...


genius cook



> Lard or pork fat is about 40% saturated, 48% monounsaturated (including small amounts of antimicrobial palmitoleic acid) and 12% polyunsaturated. Like the fat of birds, the amount of omega-6 and omega-3 fatty acids will vary in lard according to what has been fed to the pigs. In the tropics, lard may also be a source of lauric acid if the pigs have eaten coconuts. Like duck and goose fat, lard is stable and a preferred fat for frying. It was widely used in America at the turn of the century. *It is a good source of vitamin D*, especially in third-world countries where other animal foods are likely to be expensive. Some researchers believe that pork products should be avoided because they may contribute to cancer. Others suggest that only pork meat presents a problem and that pig fat in the form of lard is safe and healthy.


Mary Enig PhD, renouned expert



> Lard is good.
> 
> Yes, lard makes for a heavenly, moist and flakey texture for baked goods, but before you become riddled with guilt for your indulgence in greasy goodness, consider the health benefits of animal fats.


3 surprising benefits



> * Lard is 40 percent saturated fat (compared to coconut oil's 85 percent and palm kernel oil's 80 percent)
> * Lard contains 'a very respectable' 45 percent monounsaturated fat (for more on the benefits of monounsaturated fatty acids (MUFAs) see the e-alert 'Change your diet to avoid Parkinsons disease' 21/7/05)
> 
> Now, in spite of the MUFA content of lard, the medical mainstream might swoon at the thought of 40 percent saturated fat. After all, saturated fats will kill you, right? They'll clog your arteries and stop your heart, correct?
> 
> Answers: No and No.


healtier life

In summation, when you look at the definitions written I think one should keep in mind they can make it sound as gross and disgusting as they prefer, but a company such as Abady will do what is best for the animal regardless.

Some of you would opt never to feed Abady products, but then again keep in mind no matter how some products may be glorified, some would also opt never to feed the products you may choose to feed.

Thanks for reading.


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## SuZQuzie

Part I response:

My definition came from the published AAFCO guidelines.

While nutritionally, they are the same when placed into a bomb calorimeter and other tests are done (such as using ether extracts and measuring nitrogen levels) to determine the analysis. But, that does not mean that both at equal in terms of bioavailability to the animal. The animal cannot utilize as much of the nutrients found in chicken by-product meal as it can those of chicken meal.


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## claybuster

rannmiller said:


> Go Colts! Still undefeated!


Boo Boo, PATRIOTS rule, but they lost today


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## claybuster

SuZQuzie said:


> Part I response:
> 
> My definition came from the published AAFCO guidelines.
> 
> While nutritionally, they are the same when placed into a bomb calorimeter and other tests are done (such as using ether extracts and measuring nitrogen levels) to determine the analysis. But, that does not mean that both at equal in terms of bioavailability to the animal. The animal cannot utilize as much of the nutrients found in chicken by-product meal as it can those of chicken meal.


I believe anything you say Suzie, well not really but you seem so nice! Is there any science or data to back up that claim the animal cannot utilize CBPM as well as CM? Because AAFCO says so?


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## claybuster

SuZQuzie said:


> ... The animal cannot utilize as much of the nutrients found in chicken by-product meal as it can those of chicken meal.


Why is that? There has to be a reason? But it just does not make any sense. I know it has nothing to do with what AAFCO says, they I think are more like watchdogs and report, but nothing to do with explanations as to why.
There has to be a reason why the can't utilize 'as much'.


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## SuZQuzie

Part II Response

These aren't definitions. These are the analysis of individual ingredients based on scientific information available and NOT any wiki sources or popular articles. Most of the information used to conduct these analyses of these ingredients come from sources completely independent of the AAFCO or FDA.

While in the same family, Herring and Menhaden are not the same fish. My housecats are in the same family as the Siberian tiger, but that does not make them the same cat (thank goodness).

Pacific Herring (_Clupea harengus pallasi_)











claybuster said:


> *Menhaden Fish Meal*
> 
> Atlantic Menhaden (_Brevoortia tyrannus_)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The largest difference nutritionally is the presence of thiaminase in Menhaden, but not in the Pacific Herring. There IS thiaminase in the Baltic Herring, but simply based on geographics, it is safe to assume that they use Pacific Herring.
> 
> Tearing down other products does not improve the quality of Abady.
> 
> Yes, ocean fish meal is vague.
> 
> No, Menhaden fish do spoil more rapidly than Herring fish. This is because Menhaden fish are very high in volatile aromatic compounds meaning that they oxidize very rapidly unless treated with an antioxidant shortly after death. While these volatile aromatic compounds are present in other fish, they are not present in nearly as high of compounds.


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## SuZQuzie

Part III Response

"Rendered fat of pig" is not scary, just accurate. All that means is that it is pig fat, melted down. 

Lard is high in linoleic acid. That's good. But, it is not the best land animal source of linoleic acid as claimed by Abady. That is concerning to me.

Listed per 100g of substance

Turkey fat 21201 mg
Chicken fat 19503 mg
Duck fat 11999 mg
Lard 10199 mg
Mutton tallow 5501 mg
Beef tallow 3100 mg

Lard is very low in nutrients no matter how one looks at it.


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## claybuster

SuZQuzie said:


> Part II Response
> 
> These aren't definitions. These are the analysis of individual ingredients based on scientific information available and NOT any wiki sources or popular articles. Most of the information used to conduct these analyses of these ingredients come from sources completely independent of the AAFCO or FDA.
> 
> While in the same family, Herring and Menhaden are not the same fish. My housecats are in the same family as the Siberian tiger, but that does not make them the same cat (thank goodness).
> 
> Pacific Herring (_Clupea harengus pallasi_)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> claybuster said:
> 
> 
> 
> *Menhaden Fish Meal*
> 
> Atlantic Menhaden (_Brevoortia tyrannus_)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The largest difference nutritionally is the presence of thiaminase in Menhaden, but not in the Pacific Herring. There IS thiaminase in the Baltic Herring, but simply based on geographics, it is safe to assume that they use Pacific Herring.
> 
> Tearing down other products does not improve the quality of Abady.
> 
> Yes, ocean fish meal is vague.
> 
> No, Menhaden fish do spoil more rapidly than Herring fish. This is because Menhaden fish are very high in volatile aromatic compounds meaning that they oxidize very rapidly unless treated with an antioxidant shortly after death. While these volatile aromatic compounds are present in other fish, they are not present in nearly as high of compounds.
> 
> 
> 
> I don't know Suzie....I think you're reaching here, these have to be so close that there can hardly be much difference in the profiles. Every thing you state here in response sounds kinds iffy. Words like 'as much' in regards to CM and CBPM, 'aromatic compounds' in the fish? What does that mean aromatic compounds? Menhaden stinks more like fish than herring so it's not as beneficial? I don't know about all this...I think it's all very challengeable stuff here!
> 
> Speaking of challenging...I was thinking recently when I had graduated undergrad school in '84, I kind wish I was a more challenging person in class. I mean instead of just sitting there accepting what they said, just skating on by as a 'C' student (better in classes with my major though), I wished I challenged my professors more instead of just listening. Putting up a argument with some of the topics, not in a negative way, but offering opposing viewpoints that have absolute merit. I may have even received better grades if I had done so. I think there are plenty of challenging ideas in regards to concepts with regards to the Abady approach to nutrition. Good concepts that can no doubt be discussed displaying interest and thought.
> 
> I gotta get some ZZZZ's
> nite nite
Click to expand...


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## claybuster

SuZQuzie said:


> Lard is high in linoleic acid. That's good. But, it is not the best land animal source of linoleic acid as claimed by Abady. That is concerning to me.
> 
> Listed per 100g of substance
> 
> Turkey fat 21201 mg
> Chicken fat 19503 mg
> Duck fat 11999 mg
> Lard 10199 mg
> Mutton tallow 5501 mg
> Beef tallow 3100 mg
> 
> Lard is very low in nutrients no matter how one looks at it.



They claim, longest chain of the carbons...less work for the body to do when it comes to the conversions to make the carbon chains long enough to be useable...really I gotta get some ZZZZ'ss. nite nite again!


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## JoeCo

*lets move on*

Hey people, has anyone heard the one about "beating a dead horse". Lets call it a draw and move on with our lives.


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## SuZQuzie

claybuster said:


> Why is that? There has to be a reason? But it just does not make any sense. I know it has nothing to do with what AAFCO says, they I think are more like watchdogs and report, but nothing to do with explanations as to why.
> There has to be a reason why the can't utilize 'as much'.


They don't explain why. That's not their job. They are not the ones that I would get that sort of information from. 

I don't know exactly why, but I can make an educated guess.

Poultry by-product meals, contain a significant amount of heads, necks, backs, and feet. All of those contain large amounts of connective tissues. Connective tissues contain large amounts of collagen, which is a protein that is indigestible unless exposed to high heat with high humidity for a significant amount of time. Unless collagen is, essentially, predigested for the animal, it will retain its protein and nutrients.

The organ portion of the meal is just as available as muscle meat.

The fact that by-product meals are less digestible than other meat meals was originally found out in a feed study. If my memory serves correct, they took two meals, one by-product and one regular from the same animal source with comparable nutrient analyses, a placed them into two dog foods. These two dog foods were the same except for the fact that one contained meat by-product meal and the other contained meat meal (I'm not sure what type of meat, by it was named). They fed the animals this diet and then collected their urine and feces. 

They analyzed the two foods and the combined nutrients of the urine and feces from each group of animals. Take the gross nutrient values of the feed, subtract the nutrient values of the urine and feces, and you have the digestible nutrient values of the feed. They found that more of what they initially put in the dogs was coming out the other end in by-product fed dogs over meat meal fed dogs.


----------



## SuZQuzie

claybuster said:


> SuZQuzie said:
> 
> 
> 
> Part II Response
> I don't know Suzie....I think you're reaching here, these have to be so close that there can hardly be much difference in the profiles. Every thing you state here in response sounds kinds iffy. Words like 'as much' in regards to CM and CBPM, 'aromatic compounds' in the fish? What does that mean aromatic compounds? Menhaden stinks more like fish than herring so it's not as beneficial? I don't know about all this...I think it's all very challengeable stuff here!
> 
> I gotta get some ZZZZ's
> nite nite
> 
> 
> 
> As I have said before, little of this in coming from my lectures. My teachers teach me how to find information more than tell me information. "Give a man a fish, and you feed him for day. Teach a man to fish, and you feed him for a lifetime" type mantra.
> 
> Nothing about "stink." An aromatic compound is a compound containing a benzene ring. A benzene ring is very susceptible to changing into a completely different compound simply due to their nature.
> 
> All of the below compounds are some examples of basic aromatic compounds. It is possible to make any one of the compounds in to any other compound present with only a few steps of a mechanism.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Do you really want me to go on here?
Click to expand...


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## PUNKem733

Wow Suzy, great info, but I think most know that Abady is nowhere near as good as Orijen or Evo. Or any of the other several top foods.

I mean wow, claybuster is quoting from the guy that owns abady! Like he's gonna say my food is shit.


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## SuZQuzie

PUNKem733 said:


> Wow Suzy, great info, but I think most know that Abady is nowhere near as good as Orijen or Evo. Or any of the other several top foods.
> 
> I mean wow, claybuster is quoting from the guy that owns abady! Like he's gonna say my food is shit.


I'm glad that was helpful to someone. :smile:

You are correct, most are aware that Orijen or Evo are superior to Abady. Most don't know why, though.

Yes, Charlie is quoting from the owner of Abady. It is extremely unlikely that Abady would say anything but shining reviews of his own product. It is just so interesting to me that it is nearly unanimous among all other sources that Abady is a subpar food except for one, that one being Abady himself with little real science behind it. Most of Charlie's sources don't make sense to me, though, so I just go with it.

Don't take it personally. You know what you are feeding is appropriate for your dogs and there is absolutely nothing that Charlie can do about it. How likely is it that he would actually go out of his way to feed Abady to your dogs? Not very. :wink:


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## claybuster

SuZQuzie said:


> It is extremely unlikely that Abady would say anything but shining reviews of his own product.


You could say the same thing about any dog food co. EVO, Orijen, Tastes, etc., obviously say wonderful glorious things about their products. Most all the users like the ones here fall for it hook line and sinker, without giving it a second thought. They just take what the company says for granted. You could argue I do the same....but I've never had no recalls for that matter either.

Getting back to the digestibility of CM vs CBPM, we have to go back to the source, the link I posted from Griffin (non-affiliated with any dog food company or the industry as a whole). What do they day about the digestibility of each? No need to look...I just did...both 90%+. That's pretty good....it's like quibbling over a few cents. I see the same with the Menhaden vs herring....nickels and dimes, too close to call.

I think the definitions are subject to the authors interpretation and feeling, something like literary license? AAFCO writing a statement may trash something while somebody writing for Diamond makes it sound not bad at all. Up to you the reader to make an assessment.


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## claybuster

PUNKem733 said:


> Wow Suzy, great info, but I think most know that Abady is nowhere near as good as Orijen or Evo. Or any of the other several top foods.
> 
> I mean wow, claybuster is quoting from the guy that owns abady! Like he's gonna say my food is shit.


Have you ever seen any owner of a dog food company supply that much info in regards to ingredients like what we see with Menhaden. and why choose to use ingredient over another?....hardly. Like I just mentioned, you all get a few short sentences, maybe some nice pictures to boot, and then just take it for granted what they say is true. I like the breakdown, I like knowing what is in there, the reasons why, and the benefits. Most would say my food is crap without any justification other than because someone else said so.

Back to the M-F weekly grind...I need to hit the lottery so I never have to work! Have a nice day.


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## SuZQuzie

If you feel they are one and the same (which they aren't), continue feeding it. 

Regarding that "digestibility" number, what does that mean? Where did they get that number? Did they calculate is by producing a chicken digest? Did they conduct feeding trials? 

"Digestibility" is not a number with any scientific significance that I am aware of.

I am most curious about your opinions on the other ingredients, as well.


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## ddwcmp555

claybuster said:


> You could say the same thing about any dog food co. EVO, Orijen, Tastes, etc., obviously say wonderful glorious things about their products. Most all the users like the ones here fall for it hook line and sinker, without giving it a second thought. They just take what the company says for granted. You could argue I do the same....but I've never had no recalls for that matter either.


You are right, every company fluffs up their product. 

BUT

The number one reason why I wanted / switched to Evo and other food companies is actually because of other user experiences. Not because of what the company says their food will do. Second would be the ingredient list. I like allot of different meats in my dogs food. Evo red meat has 6 named meats, Blue Wilderness has 5, Abady has 3...and thats IF I count the by-product and the meat & bone meal. If I didn't feel comfortable about the by-product or meat & bone meal, Abady would only appear to have 1 good meat source. 

Just wanted to interject and give my reason for switching to Wilderness / Evo.


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## wags

Its that HOLIDAY time of year! I'm not even going to comment on this thread! The last time I did on another thread, it got locked, so nope not even going to comment!
I say Happy Holidays to everyone though!:biggrin:


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## DaneMama

I agree with wags...time to put the Abady vs. THE WORLD to rest. 

Happy Holidays to all :biggrin: :wink:


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## claybuster

SuZQuzie said:


> While in the same family, Herring and Menhaden are not the same fish. My housecats are in the same family as the Siberian tiger, but that does not make them the same cat (thank goodness).


Nahhh, I think maybe more like a Pershian Kitty vs. a Siamese? Your example is like a small sand shark vs a killer Great White. We're talking a small fish with very similar profiles.


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## claybuster

SuZQuzie said:


> ..
> "Digestibility" is not a number with any scientific significance that I am aware of. ...QUOTE]
> 
> Sounds good to me! So when we hear one is more digestible than the other we can conclude there really is no scientific merit to back up that claim and if any, insignificant.


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## Unosmom

SuZQuzie - dont strain yourself too hard, we've already made peace with the fact that claybuster will not change his mind, but I find comfort in the fact that 99.9% of people who come to this board use common sense and go with the more obvious choices when it comes to picking out a better quality kibble.


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## RawFedDogs

wags said:


> Its that HOLIDAY time of year! I'm not even going to comment on this thread! The last time I did on another thread, it got locked, so nope not even going to comment!
> I say Happy Holidays to everyone though!:biggrin:


The reason it was closed was not because of the information being given, it was because it had deteriorated into name calling.


----------



## claybuster

SuZQuzie said:


> I am most curious about your opinions on the other ingredients, as well.


Lot of stuff in your opening post, and I tried to hit what I think are the more important ones, but I'll have a go at it...

*Natural Flavor:* For all we know it could be blood, and knowing Abady concepts that would not surprise me. In fact I did here someone comment they heard since the old man passed away and the son took over, he was going to introduce blood plasma into the mix. The comment was the old man never would have accepted that not knowing the exact source of the blood. That is hearsay, so I have no idea if it was true or not. This conversation took place at a convention and the discussion was between a coworker of mine and a rep. of a dog food company.

*Flax Seed Oil* (organic): The definition that you supplied gives one the impression completely unusable for canines, which sounds like a complete distortion of the real facts. Just because it contains linolenic acid in the form of ALA, does not mean the canine body cannot use it. It has to be lengthened by the body when the body converts it to a useable source...Abady explains:



> Most tasks require that the essential fatty acids, either the omega 6’s or the omega 3’s be of the 20 to 22 carbon length variety. These long carbon chain fatty acids are only derived from animal (lamb or pork) fat or fish fat. This demonstrates that notions advocating that there are benefits associated with the absence of animal fat in a diet for companion carnivores are baseless. In fact, the absence of animal fat in a diet makes the body work very hard to overcome the deficiency of the 20 to 22 carbon variety. *When plant oils are used they provide the 18 carbon chain fatty acids which the body has to lengthen in order to be able to use them. In that competition the omega 6’s have the advantage. Given equal amounts of the 18 carbon starting materials (omega 6 and the omega 3’s), the enzymes will prefer to use linoleic acid to make its longer chain derivatives and will use very little linolenic acid (omega 3’s) to make its longer-chain derivatives (EPA & DHA).*


how to choose: Fats and the Omega's

Again, the supplied definition is vague and a distortion of the facts. Plant oils can be used by carnivores, and when you go with organic you stay within the realm of natural.

*Menhaden Fish Oil*: Definition states inexpensive and then states a good energy source. Sounds more like it's cost effective.*"Good energy source. High in DHA and EPA forms of linoleic acid. High in linolenic acid."*

*White Rice*: "Inexpensive energy source. Low nutrient quantities." Question to you Suzie. Why do Vets routinely advise when dogs come into the office sick (could be from the very diets purchased from the Vet), feed a bland diet like chicken and white rice? Answer: because Vets also know white rice is a non-allergenic grain source and will not hurt your dog. Most important I think to the Abady approach, little protein that does not compromise the protein core of the food with gluten, like most all commercial foods do. Also, when compared to some other filler type ingredients manufacturers choose, white rice just like the pork fat are the more expensive options and that is the reason you don't see them used often.
*
Beef Meat and Bone Meal*: Keywords in this definition, *"high in protein".*



> First and foremost, commercial diets are seriously lacking in quality animal protein.
> 
> Protein is the single most important nutrient in the dog’s diet. The word protein, in fact, was coined from a Greek word meaning *“of the first importance.”* Innumerable studies have amply confirmed its necessity and predominance for life itself. Protein is a primary constituent of almost every biological process. Primarily dependent on protein are the formation of structural and protective tissues, hormones, enzymes, and body secretions and all the basic chemical reactions of the body e.g. the acid/base balance, the regulation of fluid balance, antibody formation, and resistance to disease and parasites. It becomes readily understandable – in view of its extraordinary importance – that if there were to be any inadequacies in a ration, the very last place one would wish to see them would be in the area that involves protein.


how to choose

*Undefatted Beef Liver*: *"No AAFCO definition available. Possibly high in fat since liver is usually very high in fat unless defatted. Generally, liver is very nutrient dense ..."*

Possibly? Of course it is.



> All the Abady Formulations are manufactured in as natural a way as possible.
> While Abady feeds may not be the only feeds in the marketplace in which artificial preservatives, dyes and synthetic flavouring agents are shunned, they are the only feeds in the world that are structured along naturalistic lines, and possess an ingredient base that is genuinely species-appropriate to carnivores.


Pinnacle: message

Suzie, try some google searches on Argentine Beef Liver. You should notice some keywords in your search....natural, grass-fed, *hormone free*.
I realize this is clearly not a product for your dogs as you already mentioned. But the Abady approach to nutrition does sit very well with a lot of folks, myself included.

You took the time to list the chemical compounds, inorganic, but I am confident you would also find *naturally occurring *as well. Inorganic from Wiki:



> Traditionally, inorganic compounds are considered to be of a mineral, not biological, origin. Complementarily, most organic compounds are traditionally viewed as being of biological origin. Over the past century, the precise classification of *inorganic vs organic compounds has become less important to scientists, primarily because the majority of known compounds are synthetic and not of natural origin*.


.Inorganic compound - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Again, Abady would opt to use the naturally occurring inorganic compounds, not the synthetics.
To someone like yourself who mentioned, a product clearly not for your dogs, being as natural as possible is important to a lot of folks, myself included.

We can look at the definitions and how they are worded, or more importantly how poorly worded, but I would say take that with a grain of salt. I mentioned this in other threads, it is just not was is included but of equal importance what is not included in dog foods that can make them more ideal than others. Natural is important to the Abady people, and despite trashy wording of ingredients, something like natural, high protein, greater safety is more important than sales appeal. I really do hope you find the Abady approach to nutrition interesting and I would say, don't be too quick to say no to something just by looking at things on the surface and taking an AAFCO definition as gospel. There are alternative approached to nutrition for our dogs that can be very appealing, even if one finds CBPM and Lard yucky!
I enjoy discussing it with you and those who don't want to read can simply turn the channel off!


----------



## claybuster

RawFedDogs said:


> The reason it was closed was not because of the information being given, it was because it had deteriorated into name calling.


Hey, welcome back! I tried to keep things interesting in your absence.

Wags and I are beyond our little spat now...I think. I told him I would like to bury the hatchet and forget the whole thing, and no more name calling. It was my fault. I was needling him after I kept hearing crap diet, but I don't care anymore. You folks are welcome to trash, criticize, pick on, call it whatever you like, I will not retaliate. We are all entitled to our opinions.


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## SuZQuzie

THESE AREN'T DEFINITIONS. THEY ARE COMPILATIONS OF DATA FROM VARIOUS SOURCES.

Got it? :smile:

Persians and Siamese are the same species and can interbreed. Menhaden and Herring aren't even in the same genus. One must "go back" 3 steps to find a similar ancestor between the two fish. 

Digestible Energy is a number with a very specific definition and each species has their own DE value for every single feedstuff. If one fed, say, corn biggrin to a dog, a cat, a pig, a horse, and a cow, they would all be able to obtain a different amount of energy from it. Digestibility does not fall into those parameters.

Yes, natural flavor could be blood... or anything else for that matter, including something that actually is toxic to dogs.

Abady explains that the body prefers plant linoleic acid to linolenic acid to utilize. I agree. The body won't use plant linolenic acid in sufficient quantities.

Inexpensive is a descriptive term that has little to do with quality of a feedstuff.

White rice is recommended to ease digestive upset because it contains no complex nutrients to digest before utilization. It IS low in nutrients, which is great because nutrients are hard to get from the food to the body.

BMBM is high in protein, by is it obtainable by the animal? Let's say I have a thousand dollar bill. It definitely has a real monetary value, right? I want to buy groceries. Do you think I can just go to Ralph's and buy $50 of groceries with the thousand dollar bill? I could try, but I would probably get turned away. I would have to go to the bank to "refine" it into much smaller bills that I can actually use on a daily basis.

I don't understand what you are saying regarding beef liver. I said nothing bad about it.  You are incredibly argumentative.
*
Google is not synonymous with research.
*

I never said inorganic was bad or unnatural; it's just what it is. 

Chelated compounds are more absorbable forms of a mineral and are naturally occuring. Hemoglobin (like the stuff found in aminals!) is a rich source of iron proteinate.

Does Abady have any enlightening articles for we they are using cupric oxide? I'm REALLY curious about that one!


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## claybuster

Compilation of data yes, but it is how they are DEFINED by sources like AAFCO, no? I realize you may or may not agree with the data as to whether it really means good or bad.

Ok, sure I know they are not the exact same fish, but how close do they have to be before it becomes moot point? Are they not both in there for the same reasons?

About the liver, just pointing out why it's in there as opposed to some other options, don't mean to sound argumentative. I know you did not say anything negative in those regards.

Have never read anything fro Abady in regards to the Cupric Oxide, but I did find this:



> * It is occasionally employed for incorporation in mineral supplements for insuring against an insufficiency of copper in the diet of animals*


Copper.org: Applications: Copper Compounds - Other Copper Compounds
Is that a bad thing? Forget it, I don't want to know, I'm sure there are a gazillion negatives you can find.


I get the feeling I am becoming annoying to you when it is not my intent. This is a thread about Abady ingredients, but maybe there is no room for discussion? I'll just drop it I guess. Last thing I want to get you or anyone else annoyed or upset. Looking forward to future posts about the ingredients found in some of the popular brands, like a segment you mentioned. I'm willing to bet that all the compilation of data translates into wonderful descriptive defining statements that aren't really definitions of the more popular foods with lot's of sales appeal.

Really, I'll stop. You put your time into the opening post, you've got some patting you on the back for a good job in letting the 'facts' be known about those Abady ingredients.


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## wags

RawFedDogs said:


> The reason it was closed was not because of the information being given, it was because it had deteriorated into name calling.


well not exactly! But your comment is noted! :wink:Things got a bit more elated than they should have between claybuster and myself! But thats all done and over!
This discussion right now has been done over and over seems silly to keep repeating it over and over same ole same ole!
Hopefully nothing will get very heated then!:biggrin:


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## claybuster

SuZQuzie said:


> Concerns:
> -Absence of a muscle meat with high nutrient availability
> -High concentrations of linoleic acid and low concentrations of linolenic acid
> -Use of protein-dense supplements to bolster protein counts
> -The use of mineral products with low bioavailability
> -Contains two compounds that alter the actual amount of thiamine in the feed
> -Contains potassium iodide
> -Contain cupric oxide


*Absence of a muscle meat*: Abady will tell us diets that start off with muscle meats are some of the worst imaginable! On a solids basis after the 75% of the moisture content has been baked or steamed out, leaves you only with 25% of an ingredient. Only a portion of that is actual chicken protein (.50) so you are looking at only 12.5% of that starter ingredient as actual protein.
This 'nonsensical approach' to making dog food was by no surprise the same approach to the diets recommended by the Whole Dog Journal. Dog are therefore penalized by this approach...the foods worthy of your dinner table mentality. In order for nutrients to be available to the animal, they have to be there to begin with, and is in the case with meat muscle diets, there simply is not enough there...you can't get blood out of a stone.

*High concentrations of linoleic acid and low concentrations of linolenic acid*:
Take a look at some of the more popular diets and their content of linoleic acid (omega 6's). In all fairness, I will look at the fishy formulas.

Taste of the Wild Pacific Stream Formula w/ Smoked Salmon
Omgea 6's *2.4%* minimum
Omega 3's *0.3%* minimum

EVO Herring and Salmon Formula
Omega 6's *1.4%* minimum
Omega 3's *2.6%* minimum

Orijen 6 Fish for Dog
Omega 6's *3.0%* minimum
Omega 3's *1.2%* minimum

Abady Ganulars Linoleic content (6's)
Toy: not less than *4%*
Maintenance: not less than *5%*
Classic: not less than *5%*
Basic: not less that *5.0%*
Pup lg Breed: not less than *6.2%*
Pup Giant breed: not les than *5.0%*

Note which company tops the list with the highest concentrations of linoleic acids…Abady of course and even the fish formulas of the top sales appeal oriented companies aren’t even in the same league.

Why no mention of Omega 3's? Good question and best answer...its a *moot point*. Abady explains:



> The essential fatty acid linoleic acid and its derivatives are the omega 6’s. Linolenic acid and its derivatives are the omega 3’s. They cannot be synthesized by the body - they must be present in the diet. *The most important of the two are linoleic acid and its derivatives, the omega 6’s because they have more tasks to perform; they can even replace the omega 3’s if the omega 3’s are deficient or absent.*...The omega 6 fatty acid may lower blood cholesterol by causing it to degrade faster. The omega 3 fatty acid will also lower blood cholesterol by reducing the availability of carriers for it. *In this scenario the omega 6 is the most important.*...Overstating the amounts of omega 3 fatty acids in a diet in relation to the amounts of omega 6 fatty acids is *a prescription for disaster *(we know of one company that makes this error and brags about it as if it were advantageous - it isn’t) *particularly because the omega 3’s cannot substitute for the omega 6’s, while the omega 6’s do substitute for shortages of the omega 3’s. The Abady Company was the first company, over 30 years ago, to recognize the need for omega 3 fatty acids and to address it.*


Is EVO one of those companies overstating amounts of 3's leading to people to believe it is advantageous? Reality is, of all the mentioned diets, Abady top the list with the highest concentration of Omega 6s in the diet. Any concerns about shortages of 3's is an invalid concern. Abady was the first to address the need for 3's in the diet, leaders in the industry, by no means followers.

*The use of mineral products with low bioavailability*: Lesser of 2 evils. Go with what is most natural or offer plant matter or synthetics?

*Contains two compounds that alter the actual amount of thiamine in the feed*:
No comment for the two compounds were not mentioned

*Contains potassium iodide*: again, keyword...NATURAL.



> The major uses of KI include nutritional supplement in animal feeds...


 wiki

*Contain cupric oxide*: Addressed earlier in a post... And again …ala natural!


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## SuZQuzie

Muscle meat as in meals and I don't mean by-products.

While linoleic can substitute for linolenic, it causes an inflammation response.

Chelates are naturally occuring and are the forms of minerals found in meat, while the minerals in Abady come from rocks or are synthesized.

Thiaminase is found in Menhaden fish and then choline chloride inhibits various vitamin B uptakes. Granted, it is one of the few stable forms of choline so the only choice.

Just because something is natural doesn't mean it's good for you. Cyanide is natural, too.


----------



## claybuster

SuZQuzie said:


> Muscle meat as in meals and I don't mean by-products.
> 
> While linoleic can substitute for linolenic, it causes an inflammation response.
> 
> Chelates are naturally occuring and are the forms of minerals found in meat, while the minerals in Abady come from rocks or are synthesized.
> 
> Thiaminase is found in Menhaden fish and then choline chloride inhibits various vitamin B uptakes. Granted, it is one of the few stable forms of choline so the only choice.
> 
> Just because something is natural doesn't mean it's good for you. Cyanide is natural, too.


Causes inflammation? Where do find this stuff...lol

Yes, I know about the cyanide...you won't find any Yucca in Abady ingredinents!


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## GermanSheperdlover

I been watching this thread and all I can say is I totally respect Dog food Analysis and what the say and how they get to their rating of each product. They rate this food as a ''''one'''' star which is as low as you can get and for good reason. 

Dog Food Reviews - 1 Star Dry Dog Food - Powered by ReviewPost

I GOOGLED EVERY FOOD IN THIS PRODUCT AND FOUND THE DEFINTIONS TO BE MUCH DIFFERENT THAN WHAT CLAY CLAIMS. THIS PRODUCT IS VERY VERY INFERIER AND I AGREE TOTALLY WITH DOGFOODANALYSIS. THIS PRODUCT IS GARBAGE.

HERE IS A QUOTE OF ONE OF THE FOODS IN THIS PRODUCT......Keep in mind this is only the beginning of what I found......

Menhaden is the major source of fish meal produced in the U.S. The fish are taken in Atlantic coastal waters from Maine to Florida and in the Gulf of Mexico. Menhaden are not used for human food but for oil used in paints, soaps, and lubricants and as an ingredient in margarine in Europe. The fish are ground, cooked and processed to yield three products: presscake, fish solubles and oil. The final fish meal product may be simple presscake meal, full meal (all the soluble are added back into the presscake), or some combination of presscake and soluble. 
Fish meal used for animal feed should be stabilized with an antioxidant such as ethoxquin to prevent the fish oil from becoming rancid.

I could not find anywhere that they say they do not use ethoxquin......So in my thinking they use this crap.

Annnd this what I found out about MARIGOLD the product Clay is always attacking.....Girls take notes, lol


Medicinal uses : Marigold is used for stomach upset, ulcers, menstrual period problems, eye infections, inflammations, and for wound healing. It is antiseptic. If the Marigold flower is rubbed on the affected part, it brings relief in pain and swelling caused by a wasp or bee. A lotion made from the flowers is most useful for sprains and wounds and a water distilled from them is good the sore eyes. The infusion of the freshly gathered flowers is beneficial in fever. Marigold flowers are mostly in demand foe children ailment. Externally it is used in the treatment of alopecia. Internally it is used to treat bladder and kidney problems, blood in the urine, uterine bleeding and many more.

How about dandelions....

Dandelion has been used for its nutritional value as well as for water retention, regulation of blood glucose, upset stomach, urinary tract infections, kidney and bladder stones, liver and gallbladder complaints, and loss of appetite.


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## PUNKem733

I'm glad I pop open a 1200 mg fish oil pill and pour it on his food everyday. His coat seems better for it, I've been doing it for about a month, he doesn't smell fishy or anything. He doesn't seem to show any signs of me overdoing it.


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## claybuster

GermanSheperdlover said:


> I been watching this thread and all I can say is I totally respect Dog food Analysis and what the say and how they get to their rating of each product. They rate this food as a ''''one'''' star which is as low as you can get and for good reason. ...


I don't trust anything they say over there. Some of the top picks are the worst imaginable IMO. Complete 100% supportive of omnivore nutrition and will probably try to convince you as well your dog is an omnivore.



> GSL: Menhaden is the major source of fish meal produced in the U.S. ...


Probably called Ocean Fish Meal or Herring meal legally because the profiles are so close. They do have a lot of room there under the law in labeling. That would not surprise me at all if it was in your foods as well, disguised under another name.




> GSL: Medicinal uses : Marigold is used for stomach upset, ulcers, menstrual period problems, eye infections, inflammations, and for wound healing. It is antiseptic. If the Marigold flower is rubbed on the affected part, it brings relief in pain and swelling ...


Probably need all those healing properties to combat all the problems being caused by the other inappropriate ingredients.

Here's what I found:



> On chemical analysis, the calendula flowers were found to contain a volatile oil, many *bitter chemical principles*, different types of carotenoids, a lot of mucilage, plant resin, all kinds of polysaccharides, plant acids and a variety of alcoholic compounds, different compounds such as the *saponins* and other glycosides, as well as different kinds of sterols. Calendula



Saponins...caused bloat in every animal tested. But remember they want you belive it is a mystery or genetics.

No thanks. Despite all the negative press by the food critics, I will continue on the same path, a more _natural_ path for my dog. You folks can have the Flowers and Lawn Weeds. I don't want that stuff in my dog food.


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## claybuster

GermanSheperdlover said:


> I could not find anywhere that they say they do not use ethoxquin......So in my thinking they use this crap.




I'm sure it is your food as well. No captain of a commercial fishing vessel is going to risk the catch due to myths and hype on the internet. If your company claims it's not in there, that is only to the best of their knowledge for they have no clue what was put on the fish prior to its arrival. However, they will market to you all the nice things you want to hear....sales appeal.


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## DaneMama

> I don't trust anything they say over there. Some of the top picks are the worst imaginable IMO. Complete 100% supportive of omnivore nutrition and will probably try to convince you as well your dog is an omnivore.


But...you feed your dog an omnivores diet??? I don't get your logic at all...


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## GermanSheperdlover

danemama08 said:


> claybuster said:
> 
> 
> 
> I don't trust anything they say over there. Some of the top picks are the worst imaginable IMO. Complete 100% supportive of omnivore nutrition and will probably try to convince you as well your dog is an omnivore.QUOTE]
> 
> But...you feed your dog an omnivores diet??? I don't get your logic at all...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Two rules of thumb for ANY message board:
> 1. Don't argue with an idiot; people watching may not be able to tell the difference.
> 2. Mud wrestling with pigs - Don't do it, because you never win, and eventually you realize the pig enjoys it.
> PS. I used to be a commercial fisherman, see above two rules of thumb.
Click to expand...


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## RawFedDogs

claybuster said:


> Saponins...caused bloat in every animal tested. But remember they want you belive it is a mystery or genetics.


CB, You know we are best friends and I don't want to argue with you (**Cough**cough**) but I am not aware of any research anywhere in which the researchers were able to successuflly induce bloat into a dog, let alone "every animal tested." Who did this research and where can I get more information on it?


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## GermanSheperdlover

Their are no FACTS to back up why dogs get bloat. I have done my homework. I even heard from one guy who said "if you feed or place a dogs water 6 inchs above the ground they can get bloat". No facts to back it up, I read a ton on this subject. I am letting this guy sink his own ship, some of the stuff he posts here is just down right funny and he thinks he is getting over on us or that we believe what he is posting, NOT. I really feel sorry for this guy and their is no doubt in my mind that he has some sort of interest in Abady dog foods. Salesman, stocks, board member or WHATEVER.

You know I love how you can just highlight a word and then google and research it. What a great tool to educate yourself on any and all subjects. It sure makes researching the ingedients in pet foods easy. I can even use Yahoo if I don't think I recieved enough info using goggle.:wink:


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## SuZQuzie

While ocean fish is arbitrary, herring meal may never ever be used to described menhaden meal. 

While there is tons of more scientific articles out there, I chose one without too many big words in it for you. :smile:

Omega 3 Omega 6 Imbalance


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## claybuster

danemama08 said:


> But...you feed your dog an omnivores diet??? I don't get your logic at all...


Non-allergenic white rice will not harm your dog in any way, shape or form. Therefore it makes an ideal filler type ingredient in a carnivore ration. Weak in protein therefore does not jeopardize the protein core in the ration with gluten.


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## claybuster

GermanSheperdlover said:


> ...
> Menhaden is the major source of fish meal produced in the U.S. The fish are taken in Atlantic coastal waters from Maine to Florida and in the Gulf of Mexico. Menhaden are not used for human food but for *oil used in paints*, *soaps,* and *lubricants* and as an ingredient in margarine in Europe. ...






> Natural Citronella & Marigold *soap* contains a number of essential oils known to repel insects, including, of course, citronella essential oil, which has been used safely for years


.Natural Citronella & Marigold soap contains a number of essential oils known to repel insects, including, of course, citronella essential oil, which has been used safely for years.



> Made from Marigold flowers in Sandalwood oil, Genda Attar is seldom encountered outside of India. The commoness of the Marigold leads people to believe that there is nothing special about it, yet it's perfume is uniquely beautiful: very "green" and refreshing.


Natural Genda Attar, Marigold Perfume Oil for Meditation



> Recent interest has centred on Calendula as an *oilseed crop for industrial use.* The seed contains 40-46% oil of which 50-55% is highly conjugated calendic acid and 28-30% is the non-conjugated linoenic acid (both C 18:3). The oil could have applications in the manufacture of *paints* and *coatings, cosmetics and some industrial nylon products*. There is a large range of genetic material available (which should be possible to increase oil content by cross-breeding).


Calendula

Feel free to bash Menhaden to your hearts content.


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## claybuster

RawFedDogs said:


> CB, You know we are best friends and I don't want to argue with you (**Cough**cough**) but I am not aware of any research anywhere in which the researchers were able to successuflly induce bloat into a dog, let alone "every animal tested." Who did this research and where can I get more information on it?


I'll give you one guess where I got the information! Remember, Veterinary science wants this to remain a mystery (too much money at stake). Look at Veterinary science in the same respect as you would the science behind global warming. The science is used to promote agenda, which typical means there is a lot of money to be made.



> Some chemical structures such as saponins have come into common usage only for economic reasons. To the proponents of commercial nutrition Science is to be avoided at all costs because it would discredit them. Don’t you remember the “to-do” over what causes bloat? First it was genetics, then gluttony, then gulping air, now another nonsensical explanation advanced by a veterinary school – citric acid. That is how *Industry protects itself. By preventing you from discovering the truth about any breakdown condition so that Industry can continue producing foods that are based on wholly unsuitable but highly profitable ingredients.*





> *The cause of bloat is not a mystery, never has been, never will be. It is caused primarily by saponins. Saponins are a class of potent neurotoxins that have a wide range of metabolic effects. They have caused bloat in every species of animal in which they have been tested including dogs and cats.* Saponins paralyze the digestive tract and can, thereby, shut down the avenues through which gases caused by the fermentation of food would normally escape. Saponins also shut down the vomiting reflex. This interference with the escape of gasses causes them to accumulate in the digestive tract to the point of crushing the animal’s vital organs, killing it in the process. Saponins can interfere with conception, causing resorptions and abortions. While saponin molecules are large and not readily absorbed from the intestinal tract they can corrode the intestinal mucosa if consumed at sub-lethal dosages over a prolonged period of time, causing them to be absorbed directly into the bloodstream as if they were injected. Saponins also create a firm stool by partially paralyzing the colon.


http://therobertabadydogfoodcoltd.com/how_to_choose.htm



> Chronic gastrointestinal disorders, *bloat and torsion, are due to two pivotal factors: the use of ingredients that contain toxic saponins and the excessive levels of fibrous material in the diet.* Some ingredients offer the worst of both worlds: toxic saponins and high levels of fiber. The ingredients are beet pulp and tomato pomace. Other sources of fiber often used in excess are cellulose and grain fiber. A study by the *Purdue School of Veterinary Medicine printed in the January 1997 edition of Bloat Notes indicated a rise of 1,500% in cases of bloat and torsion from 1964 to 1994. To quote their articles, "the increase is unlikely to reflect changing diagnostic criteria or disease recognition. The increasing frequency of GDV starting about 1969 affected mostly the large and giant dog breeds. Therefore, it is also unlikely to be caused by genetic factors.* However, this apparent epidemic of GDV could be explained by the introduction of one or more novel environmental factors such as *new ingredients in dry dog foods *or a change in manufacturing processes." The article went on to state other possible causes. *Twenty years prior to the publication of this article by the Purdue Veterinary School, the Abady Company had already solved the riddle of bloat and torsion, only to discover later that independent scientists had discovered the cause even earlier and had reached the same conclusion as had the Abady Company-toxic saponins. Saponins are highly toxic substances that science had shown can cause innumerable problems *including chronic gastrointestinal problems, anemia, and stimulate rapid growth while interfering with the enzymes needed for tissue production (very possibly a contributing factor in the development of hip dysplasia), abortions, resorptions, uterine inertia, *and have caused bloat and torsion in every animal in which they were tested, including dogs and cats.* Saponins are found in a number of ingredients, many of which are included in dog foods like beet pulp, soybeans, tomato pomace, alfalfa, sorghum (milo), potatoes, oats, peas, beans, garlic, and yucca. Since none of these ingredients are relevant to the feeding of carnivores, the reason for their use is purely economic. Naturally the Abady Company does not include any of these ingredients in its foods.


http://therobertabadydogfoodcoltd.com/hip_dysplasia.htm


RFD, we all free to believe in what we feel is the best path to follow for are pets. Like you, I have been feeding dogs for well over 20 years, and of the last 7 years, nothing but Abady Granulars. It is the path I feel that is best, and the information I choose to believe. At no time have have I ever referred to any user on this board as an *'idiot'* for the path that they choose to follow. I would greatly appreciate it if you could advise some of less experienced feeders out there, regardless of their preferred choice or path to please refrain from hurling blatant insults toward other users for their choices, regardless of how non-mainstream those choices may be. That is how thread gets locked and no one likes to see that happen. I realize there are many younger users out there who have a tendency not to act their age but rather their shoe size, but again, I think we call all do without the blatant insults. Thanks you Sir. Your friend, Charlie.


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## claybuster

SuZQuzie said:


> While ocean fish is arbitrary, herring meal may never ever be used to described menhaden meal.
> 
> While there is tons of more scientific articles out there, I chose one without too many big words in it for you. :smile:
> 
> Omega 3 Omega 6 Imbalance


Thank you Suzie for the wonderful article on *human health.* That is part of the problem behind many factors that impact are pets in a negative way, the mentality we should fed our pets like we feed ourselves. It comes as no surprise you offer up and an article geared for human health rather than canine health, for Veterinary science is at the forefront of promoting concepts such as feed your beloved pet like you would feed yourself and offer foods worthy of your dinner table...and in some cases flowers and lawn weeds:wink:


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## RawFedDogs

Once again, CB, all you did was quote Abady's promorional material. I don't accept that as fact any more than I accept Purina's or Iam's or any other dog food manufacturer. The only study mentioned was the discredited, flawed Purdue Bloat Study that ended up not proving anything. I have read the study and don't remember anywhere in it saying they could induce bloat into every single dog fed anything.


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## claybuster

RawFedDogs said:


> Once again, CB, all you did was quote Abady's promorional material. I don't accept that as fact any more than I accept Purina's or Iam's or any other dog food manufacturer. The only study mentioned was the discredited, flawed Purdue Bloat Study that ended up not proving anything. I have read the study and don't remember anywhere in it saying they could induce bloat into every single dog fed anything.


Well then you obviously must believe bloat is just a mystery. I think it is food caused.


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## RawFedDogs

claybuster said:


> Well then you obviously must believe bloat is just a mystery. I think it is food caused.


Other than Abady promotional material, what proof do you have? Other than Abady promotional material, what indication do you have? Many dogs have bloated 6 or 7 hours after eating. Come up with some logical reason it's food caused that isn't from Abady and I'll seriously consider it.

It IS a mystery but I lean toward stress as the main cause.


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## claybuster

RawFedDogs said:


> Other than Abady promotional material, what proof do you have? Other than Abady promotional material, what indication do you have? Many dogs have bloated 6 or 7 hours after eating. Come up with some logical reason it's food caused that isn't from Abady and I'll seriously consider it.
> 
> It IS a mystery but I lean toward stress as the main cause.




Lot of dogs under stress, like hunting dogs. They bloat too on poor diets.
The foam produced saponins when shaken (which is documented other than from Abady) creates the pressure. Stretching back and forth after every meal...Abady theories to me make the most sense. Combine that with expansion from certain fibers (beet pulp for one plus others), more pressure in the gut. If you take a cup of kibble, add water to it, let it sit over night, you will find your cup overflowith. Best way to prevent bloat is prevention of feeding certain ingredients, then it becomes a non-issue. When I take my dog hunting, I am not at all concerned about when her last meal was or if she eats immediately after hunting, because there are no contributing factors in the ingredients I feed. I have heard you mention even raw fed dogs have been known to bloat. How do we know these dogs weren't feed kibble diets, damage already done and a pending disaster waiting to happen, before the raw? I'd be willing to bet you find a dog raised exclusively on raw since after weaning, the odds are nil that dog will bloat. If you sit down and think about it, Abady theories are very logical. They are a company clearly not after sales appeal, lay out their findings and arguments, dangers they see, and forgo sales appeal for safer options in feeding. They obviously don't care about what sells, only what works. Like they mention in their 'promotional data', you judge a feed by it's record, and they are on very solid ground in that respect. Working great for my dogs!


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## SuZQuzie

The reason I gave you a human one was because the number of popular articles in regards to canines is minimal. Here is a abstract of a study on it from Germany. Enjoy.



> Pathobiochemical importance of phospholipases for the release of mast cell mediators
> By Guck and Fuhrmann
> 
> We investigated the influence of polyunsaturated fatty acids on the activity of the cytosolic phospholipase A2 (cPLA2) in the canine mastocytoma cell line C2 as a model for canine atopic dermatitis (CAD). Cells were cultured in a basic medium or in media supplemented with different fatty acids (14 microM) for eight days. The supplemented fatty acids were linoleic acid (18:2n6), alpha-linolenic acid (18:3n3), gamma-linolenic acid (18:3n6) and docosahexaenoic acid (22:6n3). We measured enriched concentrations of the added fatty acid, their delta6-desaturated and elongated products. However, delta5-desaturated products were not increased. Culturing of C2 in 18:3n3 supplemented medium reduced the cPLA2 activity. Furthermore in these cells and in C2 cultured in 22:6n3 supplemented medium decreased the cPLA2 activity after stimulation. The reduced cPLA2 activity by the changed fatty acid pattern of C2 cultured in 18:3n3 or 22:6n3 possibly explain the beneficial effects of these fatty acids in CAD because increased cPLA2 activity is accompanied by enhanced release of proinflammatory type 2 prostaglandins and type 4 leukotrienes.


Basic Translation: Omega 3's have been shown to suppress the activity of cytosolic phospholipase, the enzyme behind canine dermatitis (inflammation of the skin), therefore reducing inflammation. This was not seen with the omega 6's.


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## DaneMama

claybuster said:


> Non-allergenic white rice will not harm your dog in any way, shape or form. Therefore it makes an ideal *filler *type ingredient in a carnivore ration. Weak in protein therefore does not jeopardize the protein core in the ration with gluten.


KEY WORD: *Filler* Why do you think a filler is what is good for your dog to eat??? A filler is a filler. That is it. To take up space, and make your dog eat more and get nothing out of it.

But your dog is a *carnivore* right?

Why oh why are you feeding your *carnivorous* dog *grain*?


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## claybuster

SuZQuzie said:


> The reason I gave you a human one was because the number of popular articles in regards to canines is minimal. Here is a abstract of a study on it from Germany. Enjoy.
> 
> Basic Translation: Omega 3's have been shown to suppress the activity of cytosolic phospholipase, the enzyme behind canine dermatitis (inflammation of the skin), therefore reducing inflammation. This was not seen with the omega 6's.


Interesting article, thanks. I've actually heard (read) much worse.



> There are notions being circulated that because sunflower oil (a premier source of plant-based omega 6 fatty acids) was used to demonstrate that *tumors grow more rapidly in the presence of omega 6 fatty acids than in the presence of omega 3 fatty acids *that it was the sunflower oil that is at fault. Sunflower oil was selected because it has the highest concentration of omega 6 fatty acids, is the purest, and the only non-toxic oil in the marketplace. Virtually any other omega 6 oil could be used. Sunflower oil is a marvelous source of omega 6 fatty acids and for *proper dietary balance it should be combined with adequate supplies of omega 3 fatty acids.*


 Abady-How to Choose article.

I think the Abady people know what their doing, and have very adequate supplies of both 6's and 3's in the ration.


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## claybuster

danemama08 said:


> KEY WORD: *Filler* Why do you think a filler is what is good for your dog to eat??? A filler is a filler. That is it. To take up space, and make your dog eat more and get nothing out of it.
> 
> But your dog is a *carnivore* right?
> 
> Why oh why are you feeding your *carnivorous* dog *grain*?


You talk as if the Abady Co. is trying to be deceptive, but that is because your lack of understanding about how ingredients work in a ration. I realize this so can't really fault your line of thinking. I know, just like some other raw feeders, you would fall hook, line and sinker for diets based solely upon sales appeal as opposed to what is actually best for the animal. Fillers are in their for economic reasons to help keep cost down for the consumer. One could choose *one* filler that in no way harms the animal or a cornucopia filled with *15* different fillers, potentially dangerous ones. We all know if you could not for whatever reasons feed raw or home prepared, you choose a product with the plethora of fillers as opposed to just one. Why, who knows....probably because like most marketing and sales appeal is much more important than sound nutrition. Now, as far as Abady trying deceive you all about white rice:



> As to the rice component of the lamb and rice diets, a lot of fuss is being made about the superior digestibility of rice. *If it is brown rice, it is less digestible because dogs cannot break down fibrous material. If it is white rice, it should be kept to a minimum, because the only contribution white rice makes to a diet is starch (carbohydrates). From a scientific standpoint, the dog has no requirement for carbohydrates and therefore the lower the quantity in a diet, the better*.


Which Diets are Best for Your Dog


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## GermanSheperdlover

You talk as if the Abady Co. is trying to be deceptive.......

Thyroid, kidney and heart problems, diabetes, breakdowns during growth – including some epileptic fits, OCD, PANO and hip dysplasia, most reproductive disorders (including small and shrinking litter 

Let me tell ya I have had more experience with hip-dysplasia than any 10 poster put together on this site. That quote by abady wasn't deceptive it was down right *criminal!!!!!.....*
And to tell ya what I believe this guy loooong before I would believe anything off the abady web site.....

William Russell says: 
January 3, 2009 at 6:46 am
Abady is not a food I’d give to my dogs. 

Years ago, I bought a top-of-the-line (bloodline-wise) puppy and ‘had’ to buy 60# of Abady with him. The pup was way too thin and refused his food (Abady and cooked ground beef) as in the diet sent by his breeder. I tried my other dogs on a little of the Abady and they immediately dialed the Dog Abuse Hotline. 

I put the pup on Canidae which he devoured. I dumped the $120 worth of Abady at the far end of my pasture, in case any starving ‘critter’ needed food and it sat there FOR YEARS, forming a concrete-like mound. I had to chop it up with a pitchfork and rake and spread it around before it finally biodegraded. NOTHING would eat it and my area abounds in raccoons who will eat anything. Except Abady.

True story.


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## claybuster

GermanSheperdlover said:


> ...
> Let me tell ya I have had more experience with hip-dysplasia than any 10 poster put together on this site. ...


I'm sure you have, and I'm sure that will continue.


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## RawFedDogs

Both of you stop this pissing contest now. I've gotten real tired of it in the last week or so. If you don't stop it, I will.


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