# dr. tims grain free



## Unosmom

Looks like they are coming out with a new grain free food, here's the ingredient list. 

*Chicken meal, dried white potatoes, dried field peas, dried beet pulp (sugar removed), chicken fat (preserved with mixed tocopherols and citric acid), ocean herring meal, tapioca, dried whole eggs, whole ground flax seed, menhaden fish oil, chicken liver, salmon meal, porcine plasma, carrots, celery, beets, parsley, lettuce, watercress, spinach, potassium chloride, salt, lecithin,calcium carbonate, L-Lysine, canola oil, dried Enterococcus faecium fermentation product, dried
Saccharomyces cerevisiae fermentation product, dried Lactobacillus acidophilus fermentation product, dl-methionine, organic dried kelp, psyllium seed husks, yucca schidigera extract, choline chloride, dried chicory root, algae fat product (source of DHA), ascorbic acid,
glucosamine, L-ascorbyl-2-polyphosphate (stabilized ascorbic acid), taurine, vitamin E supplement, zinc sulfate, zinc proteinate, beta carotene, ferrous sulfate, ascorbic acid (source
of vitamin C), manganese sulfate, inositol, niacin supplement, iron proteinate, manganese proteinate, zinc oxide, biotin, thiamine mononitrate (source of vitamin B1), copper sulfate,pyridoxine hydrochloride (source of vitamin B6), copper proteinate, vitamin A supplement, riboflavin supplement (source of vitamin B2), calcium pantothenate, potassium iodide (source of iodine), manganous oxide, selenium, calcium iodate, vitamin B12 supplement, vitamin D3
supplement, folic acid, L-carnitine, rosemary extract.* 

It looks alright to me, personally I'd like to see salmon meal, chicken liver, herring meal and eggs follow the chicken meal instead of potatoes and peas. Makes me question the true meat content of the food. I appreciate the inclusion of probiotics, but I still don't know if I would try this food, depending how much it will cost.


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## SaharaNight Boxers

With the second ingredients being dried dry weight I think it might overpower the chicken too. Plus, something tells me the peas are going to help boost the protein. 

And I don't like the citric acid. It's one of those possible bloat enhancers.


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## monster'sdad

Unosmom said:


> Looks like they are coming out with a new grain free food, here's the ingredient list.
> 
> *Chicken meal, dried white potatoes, dried field peas, dried beet pulp (sugar removed), chicken fat (preserved with mixed tocopherols and citric acid), ocean herring meal, tapioca, dried whole eggs, whole ground flax seed, menhaden fish oil, chicken liver, salmon meal, porcine plasma, carrots, celery, beets, parsley, lettuce, watercress, spinach, potassium chloride, salt, lecithin,calcium carbonate, L-Lysine, canola oil, dried Enterococcus faecium fermentation product, dried
> Saccharomyces cerevisiae fermentation product, dried Lactobacillus acidophilus fermentation product, dl-methionine, organic dried kelp, psyllium seed husks, yucca schidigera extract, choline chloride, dried chicory root, algae fat product (source of DHA), ascorbic acid,
> glucosamine, L-ascorbyl-2-polyphosphate (stabilized ascorbic acid), taurine, vitamin E supplement, zinc sulfate, zinc proteinate, beta carotene, ferrous sulfate, ascorbic acid (source
> of vitamin C), manganese sulfate, inositol, niacin supplement, iron proteinate, manganese proteinate, zinc oxide, biotin, thiamine mononitrate (source of vitamin B1), copper sulfate,pyridoxine hydrochloride (source of vitamin B6), copper proteinate, vitamin A supplement, riboflavin supplement (source of vitamin B2), calcium pantothenate, potassium iodide (source of iodine), manganous oxide, selenium, calcium iodate, vitamin B12 supplement, vitamin D3
> supplement, folic acid, L-carnitine, rosemary extract.*
> 
> It looks alright to me, personally I'd like to see salmon meal, chicken liver, herring meal and eggs follow the chicken meal instead of potatoes and peas. Makes me question the true meat content of the food. I appreciate the inclusion of probiotics, but I still don't know if I would try this food, depending how much it will cost.


There is no way for you to know because you don't have the weights of each item. There are 7 animal sources vs 1 vegetable source, so it is 92% as stated on the FB Page. You simply can't assume things by looking at the label. He uses very low ash chicken so there is much more protein per kg.

32/18 is a great spec at 92%. This is something a sporting dog could thrive on without crapping every 5 mins or losing weight.

This is about as perfect a formulation as you will find. Much better ingredients than other foods. You simply can't assume things by looking at the label. He uses very low ash chicken so there is much more protein per kg. Porcine Plasma is great for dogs.


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## DaViking

monster's dad is correct, unless you have the weight distribution numbers making statements like "I think" is pointless. Proteins from the field peas isn't a big issue either. It would be approx. 6% of whatever weight the field peas represent. I like the inclusion of beet pulp as the main source of fiber. Too bad Dr. Tim's have poor distribution in my area.


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## kevin bradley

I've said this for awhile. Even when a food has a non-meal meat ingredient...everyone says "well, it would be further down the list once water weight is subtracted"... you can assume this but you cannot be sure without more information.


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## Jacksons Mom

Ugh, more chicken! 

Lol, wish there could be a formula released without chicken being the primary meat source.

Thanks for posting.


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## kevin bradley

one thing that perplexes me...

ANYONE, correct me please if I'm wrong. But isn't Tim and his team of supporters been very much on the side of Grain Free food being more a fad than anything else...and that potatoes in place of grains do nothing to improve food???

I'm just curious why they would deem it necessary to come out with a Grain Free line?


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## Caty M

Probably marketing.. if one is loyal to the brand but heard that grain free is better, they'd be more likely to switch to this (probably more expensive) food. At least that's my thinking, anyway. I prefer other grain frees but that's just my 2c.


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## MollyWoppy

Another question too, what is 'low ash' chicken meal? What makes their chicken meal different from other premium brand chicken meals? Like, do they make their own meals or do they do something to the meals they buy to take the ash out? 
I'm not being factitious or anything, just trying to learn about ash and minerals etc to choose the best kibble for my cat.


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## Unosmom

Maybe dr tim can chime in and tell us the exact % of each ingredient, otherwise I'm not convinced. For example if it was just regular potatoes, I would assume that due to higher water content, it would slide down the list after cooking. Since it'd dried potatoes, I can only assume it's pretty accurate in placement after the chicken meal. 

why not list the other meals after chicken meal? if it's listed based on weight, it would mean that there's not a whole lot of it to begin with.


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## Brian 6

MollyWoppy said:


> Another question too, what is 'low ash' chicken meal? What makes their chicken meal different from other premium brand chicken meals? Like, do they make their own meals or do they do something to the meals they buy to take the ash out?
> I'm not being factitious or anything, just trying to learn about ash and minerals etc to choose the best kibble for my cat.


Hi Molly,

Its not the Ash per se that is important, it is the ratio of calcium and magnesium. Also, some foods are formulated to produce an acidic urine which helps prevent crystals even further. Best to go with a company that does good research and one that you trust. Impossible to tell via the label unless a food is really bad.


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## DaViking

Unosmom said:


> Maybe dr tim can chime in and tell us the exact % of each ingredient, otherwise I'm not convinced. For example if it was just regular potatoes, I would assume that due to higher water content, it would slide down the list after cooking. Since it'd dried potatoes, I can only assume it's pretty accurate in placement after the chicken meal.
> 
> why not list the other meals after chicken meal? if it's listed based on weight, it would mean that there's not a whole lot of it to begin with.


There is really no way to tell. It could be like this:

Chicken meal (35%), dried white potatoes (12%), dried field peas (8%), dried beet pulp (6%) (sugar removed), chicken fat (6%) (preserved with mixed tocopherols and citric acid), ocean herring meal (6%), tapioca (3%), dried whole eggs (2%), whole ground flax seed (2%), menhaden fish oil (2%), chicken liver (1%), salmon meal (1%) ...

... or my numbers could be way off. This would be a ~60/30 split though.


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## BearMurphy

MollyWoppy said:


> Another question too, what is 'low ash' chicken meal? What makes their chicken meal different from other premium brand chicken meals? Like, do they make their own meals or do they do something to the meals they buy to take the ash out?
> I'm not being factitious or anything, just trying to learn about ash and minerals etc to choose the best kibble for my cat.


it is my understanding that more bone results in more ash........so I would assume the chicken meal contained less bone than a product with a higher level of ash.


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## monster'sdad

MollyWoppy said:


> Another question too, what is 'low ash' chicken meal? What makes their chicken meal different from other premium brand chicken meals? Like, do they make their own meals or do they do something to the meals they buy to take the ash out?
> I'm not being factitious or anything, just trying to learn about ash and minerals etc to choose the best kibble for my cat.


Less bone, more time and money is spent removing bone from low ash meals.


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## monster'sdad

Unosmom said:


> Maybe dr tim can chime in and tell us the exact % of each ingredient, otherwise I'm not convinced. For example if it was just regular potatoes, I would assume that due to higher water content, it would slide down the list after cooking. Since it'd dried potatoes, I can only assume it's pretty accurate in placement after the chicken meal.
> 
> why not list the other meals after chicken meal? if it's listed based on weight, it would mean that there's not a whole lot of it to begin with.


What????? What would slide down the list? What if you thought of this way, add up the 6 other protein sources/meals and where would they go?

There is no concentrated source of vegetable protein like "pea protein" in this food so it obviously is heavy on the animal sources.

You have to take all these factors together, 32/18, with no vegetable protein concentrates and 7 sources of animal protein, makes this a very good looking food, not to mention the perfect mix of fibers and nice Omega 6/3 ratio.


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## MollyWoppy

monster'sdad said:


> Less bone, more time and money is spent removing bone from low ash meals.


So they do make their own meals?


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## monster'sdad

MollyWoppy said:


> So they do make their own meals?


No I doubt that, he probably just buys the top grade. There are many grades of "chicken meal".


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## Kibblelady

Life's Abundance and Blackwood use the same quality meals.... it is pricey.


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## MollyWoppy

So you can tell the quality of the meal's a company uses by the ash content of their kibble?


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## BearMurphy

MollyWoppy said:


> So you can tell the quality of the meal's a company uses by the ash content of their kibble?


i don't think you can say that across the board-- you might have to compare it by animal source. for instance, lamb based kibble pretty much always has a higher ash content than chicken. I don't think you can say the chicken meal is better than lamb meal, but you can say it has lower ash and if that's one of your concerns you may not want to feed the lamb meal product.


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## Unosmom

> What????? What would slide down the list?


because ingredients are listed based on weight, so if it's already dried up, it represents a concentrated source of carbs/starches. Even if all those other meals separately weight more than the potatoes, I would rather see them listed as 2nd, 3rd, 4th, ingredients, rather than down the list.


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## monster'sdad

Unosmom said:


> because ingredients are listed based on weight, so if it's already dried up, it represents a concentrated source of carbs/starches. Even if all those other meals separately weight more than the potatoes, I would rather see them listed as 2nd, 3rd, 4th, ingredients, rather than down the list.


Ok expert we are all aware of fresh vs dehydrated. If you call around you will find "dehydrated potato" is what most if not all companies use. Dr. Hunt is just more open. If fact, if you look at Orijen, you will see "russet potato" but no footnote that it is fresh potato like it does for other ingredients. Fresh potato is usually used in canned foods, not kibble.

Also, Dr. Hunt is one of the few guys that will tell you the animal protein percentage. He actually put all the numbers on Facebook.

So stop making assumptions without evidence. In most cases those assumptions will not be correct. Many companies play the label game to mislead consumers.

Respectfully,


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## monster'sdad

BearMurphy said:


> i don't think you can say that across the board-- you might have to compare it by animal source. for instance, lamb based kibble pretty much always has a higher ash content than chicken. I don't think you can say the chicken meal is better than lamb meal, but you can say it has lower ash and if that's one of your concerns you may not want to feed the lamb meal product.


That is correct, it is better to compare apples to apples. Compare the ash content in Nature's Variety or Earthborn Primitive to Dr. Tim's Momentum. That will show you what company uses quality chicken meal. There is a 6% differential, both of those have almost twice the ash. You pay for that ash and your dog has to deal with minerals that can only do harm.

So low ash means higher quality without question.


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## SaharaNight Boxers

monster'sdad said:


> Ok expert we are all aware of fresh vs dehydrated. If you call around you will find "dehydrated potato" is what most if not all companies use. Dr. Hunt is just be more open. If fact, if you look at Orijen, you will see "russet potato" but no footnote that it is fresh potato like it does for other ingredients.
> 
> Also, Dr. Hunt is one of the few guys that will tell you the animal protein percentage.
> 
> So stop making assumptions without evidence. In most cases those assumptions will not be correct.


No need to be kind of nasty. She just answered your quote with a logical, true, and backed up answer. And it seems like you're the one trying to be the expert...


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## monster'sdad

SaharaNight Boxers said:


> No need to be kind of nasty. She just answered your quote with a logical, true, and backed up answer. And it seems like you're the one trying to be the expert...


Not being nasty and she is incorrect for just making assumptions without any evidence. Potatoes, peas, beans, lentils are all dry. She assumes that when someone says "potato" that it is fresh potato. When a label says "Peas" they are dried split peas. "Field Peas" are dried beans like black-eye peas.

You cannot make statements the way she does without having more detail.

I applaud Dr. Hunt for being upfront. Most of the nonsense that goes in labeling is not known to the average consumer.


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## SaharaNight Boxers

Then how can you assume that? Have you called every manufacturer and sourcer?


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## Unosmom

how do you know that they are dry? I've seen videos of how the pet food is made and they use fresh potatoes.


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## Unosmom

For example this is taken from Champion website



> Grown locally by people we know and trust, like our fresh carrot supplier Aaron of Sunfresh Farms, our vegetables arrive our door FRESH. *Our vegetables are never dried or frozen,* so they're preservative-free and loaded with natural antioxidants. From spinach greens to Butternut squash, whole carrots to Burbank potatoes, our vegetables are rich in folic acid, vitamin K and iron, lutein and bioflavonoids.


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## InkedMarie

I've had people tell me how good this food is but since one can,t have chicken here and he needs grain free, we won't be buying it.


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## DaViking

Unosmom said:


> because ingredients are listed based on weight, so if it's already dried up, it represents a concentrated source of carbs/starches. Even if all those other meals separately weight more than the potatoes, I would rather see them listed as 2nd, 3rd, 4th, ingredients, rather than down the list.


I agree with you in principle, more quality animal sources etc. etc. but I have a different angle on it. When a mug is full it's full, look at the mug as the final result of whatever ppl set out to produce.
It's already at 32% proteins with 1 single main animal ingredient so pushing ocean herring meal and salmon meal to spot 2 and 3 would also push the protein level way above what Tim Hunt probably set out to achieve in the first place, unless you mean to reduce the amount of chicken meal? I don't see any point in reducing the chicken just to make room for more fish. That won't affect the level of animal vs plant sources. The amounts of proteins coming from ingredient 2 dried white potatoes and ingredient 3 dried field peas is minimal and since it's a 100% game in the first place moving the fish up doesn't make much sense unless you want to create a 40% to 45% protein formula.


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## Unosmom

I don't necessarily think it needs to be 40% protein, but as you mentioned, its possible to keep it 32% if chicken meal % is reduced. I personally value named fish meal (herring, salmon, etc), over chicken since it tends to be better quality (wild caught vs factory farmed) and most likely has more omega 3's in it.


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## DaViking

Unosmom said:


> I personally value named fish meal (herring, salmon, etc), over chicken since it tends to be better quality (wild caught vs factory farmed) and most likely has more omega 3's in it.


That's fair. Maybe they will make a fish alternative if this food becomes popular, who knows.


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## DaViking

Unosmom said:


> I don't necessarily think it needs to be 40% protein, but as you mentioned, its possible to keep it 32% if chicken meal % is reduced. I personally value named fish meal (herring, salmon, etc), over chicken since it tends to be better quality (wild caught vs factory farmed) and most likely has more omega 3's in it.


This is the EU label for the food I currently feed (testing). It's more in line with what you are looking for but as you can see the chicken is dropped down (12%) to make room for the fish without hitting way high protein levels. The Dr. Tim's formula would hit 40 to 45% real fast without dropping the chicken.










edit; At first glance this food seems to have more weight from animal sources than the Dr. Tim's formula but without knowing the Dr. Tim's numbers there is no way to know. For all we know it could contain more animal sources than this formula.


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## riddick4811

Doesn't look like a bad food. If I ever have young Greyhounds again, looks like a good choice for them, Greyhounds do very well with beet pulp in a food so much so, that many people on my Greyhound board actually add beet pulp to keep firm poop. Although Ronon has never had problems with loose poop that so many Greyhound owners complain about. Even my vet said they have constant issues with their blood donor hounds getting the runs. I just tell him it what they feed them (Science Diet) and he nods.  

But for my current dogs, the food wouldn't work. I have several dogs with issues with chicken and I'm thinking potatoes are also an issue from results from feeding different foods and common denominators being a lot of potato in the food. They do better with with either grain foods or grain free that uses peas and no potatoes. Chicken is why I stopped using Victor's grain free line. I like their food, but all my dogs can't eat it and I would have to order food from multiple online retailers to feed them all and it just isn't economically for me to do so. But now they have a chicken free formula, but the online place isn't selling it yet!


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## monster'sdad

riddick4811 said:


> Doesn't look like a bad food. If I ever have young Greyhounds again, looks like a good choice for them, Greyhounds do very well with beet pulp in a food so much so, that many people on my Greyhound board actually add beet pulp to keep firm poop. Although Ronon has never had problems with loose poop that so many Greyhound owners complain about. Even my vet said they have constant issues with their blood donor hounds getting the runs. I just tell him it what they feed them (Science Diet) and he nods.
> 
> But for my current dogs, the food wouldn't work. I have several dogs with issues with chicken and I'm thinking potatoes are also an issue from results from feeding different foods and common denominators being a lot of potato in the food. They do better with with either grain foods or grain free that uses peas and no potatoes. Chicken is why I stopped using Victor's grain free line. I like their food, but all my dogs can't eat it and I would have to order food from multiple online retailers to feed them all and it just isn't economically for me to do so. But now they have a chicken free formula, but the online place isn't selling it yet!


Beet pulp is by far the best source of fiber in a dog's diet. There is so much research on this it really need not be discussed. Years and years of study. Companies that don't use it only keep it out because of the silly notions propagated on the internet, so just for marketing. Just like statements that corn is not digestible and causes allergies.

What I like about all of Dr. Hunt's foods is that digestibility is paramount, that is why there are several fiber sources and porcine plasma, along with probiotics. All of his foods are very technical and based on research and testing.


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## monster'sdad

Unosmom said:


> I don't necessarily think it needs to be 40% protein, but as you mentioned, its possible to keep it 32% if chicken meal % is reduced. I personally value named fish meal (herring, salmon, etc), over chicken since it tends to be better quality (wild caught vs factory farmed) and most likely has more omega 3's in it.


Substantiate the comment that fish meal tends to better quality than chicken. While fish is great as a component, it has about the same digestibility as soy and can be far worse if not handled properly, especially when it comes to histamine levels.

It is fine to have opinions but saying one is better quality is a little open ended. If you wanna compare the quality of non-fish protein in Earthborn, Nature's Variety and Nature's Logic and some others to fish you might have a point. Not in this case.

I am sure the nutritionist added just the right amount of fish to balance the amino acids.


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## monster'sdad

Unosmom said:


> how do you know that they are dry? I've seen videos of how the pet food is made and they use fresh potatoes.


Do you know how many pounds of potatoes would have to go in a 30lb bag of dog food to reach let's say 30% carbohydrate in the finished product?

About 40lbs. Fresh potatoes would have to be stored in the dark, washed, peeled, chopped and processed before they turned grey from oxidation.

Dried product is safer too, less chance of toxins building up.


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## DaViking

monster'sdad said:


> Substantiate the comment that fish meal tends to better quality than chicken. While fish is great as a component, it has about the same digestibility as soy and can be far worse if not handled properly, especially when it comes to histamine levels.
> 
> It is fine to have opinions but saying one is better quality is a little open ended. If you wanna compare the quality of non-fish protein in Earthborn, Nature's Variety and Nature's Logic and some others to fish you might have a point. Not in this case.
> 
> I am sure the nutritionist added just the right amount of fish to balance the amino acids.


If I read her right I think it's more a personal view about not liking too much how chickens are raised today and not so much wild caught fish being nutritionally better. I could be wrong though.


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## Brian 6

Unosmom said:


> Looks like they are coming out with a new grain free food, here's the ingredient list.
> 
> *Chicken meal, dried white potatoes, dried field peas, dried beet pulp (sugar removed), chicken fat (preserved with mixed tocopherols and citric acid), ocean herring meal, tapioca, dried whole eggs, whole ground flax seed, menhaden fish oil, chicken liver, salmon meal, porcine plasma, carrots, celery, beets, parsley, lettuce, watercress, spinach, potassium chloride, salt, lecithin,calcium carbonate, L-Lysine, canola oil, dried Enterococcus faecium fermentation product, dried
> Saccharomyces cerevisiae fermentation product, dried Lactobacillus acidophilus fermentation product, dl-methionine, organic dried kelp, psyllium seed husks, yucca schidigera extract, choline chloride, dried chicory root, algae fat product (source of DHA), ascorbic acid,
> glucosamine, L-ascorbyl-2-polyphosphate (stabilized ascorbic acid), taurine, vitamin E supplement, zinc sulfate, zinc proteinate, beta carotene, ferrous sulfate, ascorbic acid (source
> of vitamin C), manganese sulfate, inositol, niacin supplement, iron proteinate, manganese proteinate, zinc oxide, biotin, thiamine mononitrate (source of vitamin B1), copper sulfate,pyridoxine hydrochloride (source of vitamin B6), copper proteinate, vitamin A supplement, riboflavin supplement (source of vitamin B2), calcium pantothenate, potassium iodide (source of iodine), manganous oxide, selenium, calcium iodate, vitamin B12 supplement, vitamin D3
> supplement, folic acid, L-carnitine, rosemary extract.*
> 
> It looks alright to me, personally I'd like to see salmon meal, chicken liver, herring meal and eggs follow the chicken meal instead of potatoes and peas. Makes me question the true meat content of the food. I appreciate the inclusion of probiotics, but I still don't know if I would try this food, depending how much it will cost.


Thanks for posting this. I had not heard of this food. I have researched close to 2000 foods but this one did not show up on my radar. Got it included in my data base now...

Do you know if it is sold in Canada?


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## Unosmom

I emailed Natura and they also said that they use fresh potatoes in their dry food. Also, something I came across while trying to find studies on various digestibility of meat proteins in pet food:



> In summary, the good-quality protein substrates (beef loin, pork loin, chicken breast, pollock fillet, and salmon fillet) tested in this experiment have major differences in chemical composition but relatively minor digestibility differences. *Among these sources, pollock fillet was shown to be the most digestible protein and chicken breast the least, based on predicted and standardized AA digestibility values*. Beef loin and pork loin were similar in digestibility. Salmon fillet was similar in digestibility compared with beef loin and pork loin based on IDEA


http://jas.fass.org/content/88/4/1421.full


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## monster'sdad

Brian 6 said:


> Thanks for posting this. I had not heard of this food. I have researched close to 2000 foods but this one did not show up on my radar. Got it included in my data base now...
> 
> Do you know if it is sold in Canada?


Probably is sold in Canada, email the company. Many of the top sled dog teams use the food, usually Momentum 35/25. This year he had 3 teams finish in the top ten of the Iditarod including First Place.The winner Dallas Seavey feeds 90% Momentum. Hunt sends this food to many countries mostly to professionals. Apparantly it was just adopted by a big agility organization in Japan.

The best stuff I have ever put in a dog bowl, and one of the highest levels animal protein you can buy. Mometum is 96% protein from animal sources. The ALS formula is 90%. Seven sources of animal protein and even the high protein food at 35% is just 6% Ash.

It is made in the best plant in North America.


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## 1605

monster'sdad said:


> Probably is sold in Canada, email the company. Many of the top sled dog teams use the food, usually Momentum 35/25. This year he had 3 teams finish in the top ten of the Iditarod including First Place.The winner Dallas Seavey feeds 90% Momentum. Hunt sends this food to many countries mostly to professionals. Apparantly it was just adopted by a big agility organization in Japan.
> 
> The best stuff I have ever put in a dog bowl, and one of the highest levels animal protein you can buy. Mometum is 96% protein from animal sources. The ALS formula is 90%. Seven sources of animal protein and even the high protein food at 35% is just 6% Ash.
> 
> It is made in the best plant in North America.


You wouldn't happen to work for Dr Tim, would you? :wink: It just seems to me that most of your posts seem to deal with this dog food. Forgive me for being just a little wary....

Yes, it appears to be decent dog food. But I prefer the carbs in my dog's food to be further down the ingredient list: rice is the 2nd named ingredient in this food's analysis.

For more protein, I prefer: Meat- and Poultry-Based Pet Food ? Premium Dog Food, Cat Food, Ferret Food, Dog Treats ? EVO Pet Products


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## kevin bradley

there is something very peculiar with some of these posts. I see eerily similar posts on other forums regarding some of these same foods... Annamaet, Tim's, etc.... 

I'm not sure whats going on. 

Anyone see Star Wars when Obi One senses something... a disturbance in "the force"


Drumroll please.... I think we're approaching a post that is going to tell us why Ohio Pet Foods is the greatest food plant in the world and why its ok to have rice as the 2nd ingredient. 

(just a guess)


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## Unosmom

I'm surprised he's not sick of being banned oh.. what is this 20th time now?


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## DaViking

kevin bradley said:


> there is something very peculiar with some of these posts. I see eerily similar posts on other forums regarding some of these same foods... Annamaet, Tim's, etc....
> 
> I'm not sure whats going on.
> 
> Anyone see Star Wars when Obi One senses something... a disturbance in "the force"
> 
> 
> Drumroll please.... I think we're approaching a post that is going to tell us why Ohio Pet Foods is the greatest food plant in the world and why its ok to have rice as the 2nd ingredient.
> 
> (just a guess)


Heh, I'll take some of that load of his shoulders :smile: Why is it inherently bad again with rice as a no. 2 ingredient? It doesn't tell you how much rice is in there nor does the label tell you anything about how a particular formula will perform for the individual dog. Heck, the very best food I've ever come across on this side of the pond have ground rice as no. 2 and ground corn as no. 3. Kibblelady' signature says it all.


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## kevin bradley

I'm going to be real frank here.... what pisses me off is this...

I have another forum I use on occassion. I asked some of the members there about frequent posts re. Tim's, Annamaet, etc... and I get a bunch of responses that they have had the exact same thing happen on their forums. Almost identical posts about sled Dogs, etc.... and that some of the posters might even have financial ties to some of these companies they seem to relentlessly promote.

Now, I'm not saying I'm right or I've won the detective sleuth award... but if someone is on these boards with financial ties to certain companies, doing secret promotion.... I just find it really underhanded. 

Again, I'm not saying for certain this is going on...but there is a lot of irony here if it isn't.


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## DaViking

kevin bradley said:


> I'm going to be real frank here.... what pisses me off is this...
> 
> I have another forum I use on occassion. I asked some of the members there about frequent posts re. Tim's, Annamaet, etc... and I get a bunch of responses that they have had the exact same thing happen on their forums. Almost identical posts about sled Dogs, etc.... and that some of the posters might even have financial ties to some of these companies they seem to relentlessly promote.
> 
> Now, I'm not saying I'm right or I've won the detective sleuth award... but if someone is on these boards with financial ties to certain companies, doing secret promotion.... I just find it really underhanded.
> 
> Again, I'm not saying for certain this is going on...but there is a lot of irony here if it isn't.


I know what you are saying. Answer is, it's a hodgepodge of reasons and motivations. Well visible US brands have had dedicated posters and influencers for years, ditto some Canadian brands I suspect. But... don't look for the most blatant or loud ones, they usually just want to belong you know, or have a strong personality that suggest certain preferences. I knew a NSDTR breeder/conf. handler who religiously fed one brand. Then, one day, Mars gave her a small branded party tent and some other worthless branded gifts, boom, all she talked about was Pedigree. She never took a dime, and I suspect they knew they never had to talk to her again, she was just so over the moon from the attention they gave her in form of crappy gifts she could use while on the European conf. circuit. That's how it works sometimes in dog circles, they "uniform" you and ppl follow...

edit; But in all honesty, it's one guy, harping the same brands, on multiple boards, who cares what the motivation is, any motivation doesn't make products better nor worse. Holding back on the kool-aid should work in all directions. This thread wasn't even started by him.


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## monster'sdad

DaViking said:


> Heh, I'll take some of that load of his shoulders :smile: Why is it inherently bad again with rice as a no. 2 ingredient? It doesn't tell you how much rice is in there nor does the label tell you anything about how a particular formula will perform for the individual dog. Heck, the very best food I've ever come across on this side of the pond have ground rice as no. 2 and ground corn as no. 3. Kibblelady' signature says it all.


Thanks but Submariner falls into the same trap as most people, falling for label doctoring. If he or she would do some simple math it would be obvious that Momentum has about the same carbohydrate level as Evo, but without dangerous levels of minerals.

The order of ingredients doesn't mean much, if anything. Unfortunately people fall for marketing.


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## SaharaNight Boxers

monster'sdad said:


> Thanks but Submariner falls into the same trap as most people, falling for label doctoring. If he or she would do some simple math it would be obvious that Momentum has about the same carbohydrate level as Evo, but without dangerous levels of minerals.
> 
> The order of ingredients doesn't mean much, if anything. Unfortunately people fall for marketing.


Really? And FWIW SubMariner hunts with her dogs so if anything she would be one of those that feeds something like Dr. Tim's, Annamaet, Purina, etc.

I just don't get why you seem to act as the expert here and that everyone else has just fallen into the marketing trap and is confused and doesn't get what's really right.


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## 6Goldens

kevin bradley said:


> I'm going to be real frank here.... what pisses me off is this...
> 
> I have another forum I use on occassion. I asked some of the members there about frequent posts re. Tim's, Annamaet, etc... and I get a bunch of responses that they have had the exact same thing happen on their forums. Almost identical posts about sled Dogs, etc.... and that some of the posters might even have financial ties to some of these companies they seem to relentlessly promote.
> 
> Now, I'm not saying I'm right or I've won the detective sleuth award... but if someone is on these boards with financial ties to certain companies, doing secret promotion.... I just find it really underhanded.
> 
> Again, I'm not saying for certain this is going on...but there is a lot of irony here if it isn't.


I have to chuckle because I believe the person you are talking about is the one who convinced me to try DT's Pursuit. I understand this person has been banned from several forums but I have to say he/she seems to be very knowledgeable and has taken a personal interest in helping me with Rocky.


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## kevin bradley

welcome to the forum, 6Goldens.


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## SaharaNight Boxers

6Goldens said:


> I have to chuckle because I believe the person you are talking about is the one who convinced me to try DT's Pursuit. I understand this person has been banned from several forums but I have to say he/she seems to be very knowledgeable and has taken a personal interest in helping me with Rocky.


Good marketing strategy isn't it?


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## lovemydogsalways

He is back on another forum I am on and started almost immediatly being rude and annoying. He was banned once, just waiting to see how long this round lasts.


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## Unosmom

you know when someone is a troll when they do not contribute to any other threads but aggressively push certain brands while putting everyone else down in the process.


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## 6Goldens

kevin bradley said:


> welcome to the forum, 6Goldens.


Thanks. I have learned quite a lot already.


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## dr tim

Hi Kevin;

I will plug through some of these questions as I read along this thread. Hope it stays civil.

Yes, I am still a big advocate of grain free being a fad as their is so much confusion generated in several arenas as what these foods really are constructed for or their purpose. Too many folks still think grain free is "carb free" and it is propogated in many advertising venues in that manner. So a fad possibly created by means of misleading advertising.

Also I believe it can be looked as a fad in that the protein/fat make up of the diets are all over the place, from 25% protein to 48% protein, for instance.

For many years as a vet the grain free diets were used, and still are, as a hypoallegenic diet for food allergies. Now with them going mainstream this ability to use a "novel" or "new" protein the dog has never seen, thus maybe not have an allergy to, has been diluted. My choices as a vet have diminsihed greatly using this approach to food allergie treatment.

But, grain free inadvertantly allowed less of a carb load in the diet due to the costs of the grain free carb source. I think by mistake the dog foods have improved as the carb amounts have diminshed in the diets, not because of the carb source, necessarily. IMO.

Marketing-sure-people are looking for a grain free diet because they have been led to this area and only want that. So, if you are going to make a grain free let's try to hit some parameters in the construction of said formula that make sense and still allow for a reasonable pricing for more folks to benefit by. Higher protein, higher fat, omega 3's from fish, fiber sources that help, pro and prebiotics, cooking slowly, multiple protein sources all make sense for this type of animal we are looking to feed.


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## dr tim

A low ash meal is a meat source where more care has been taken to eliminate bone from being included in the final meal product. The method of meat removal distinguishes/seperates bone from flesh much better. Dogs need about 2% ash in their diet and the rest of the ash is the true "filler" in any pet food as it contributes nothing to the diet and can actually interfere with the other nutrients in the gastrointestinal tract by binding with them and disturbing their proper absorption.


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## SaharaNight Boxers

If you believe grain free is a fad why did you create a grain free formula then?


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## dr tim

Quality of protein ingedients can definitely be indicated by the overall ash content of the food. Ash is mineral and the only place that comes from is an animal or the mineral additives.


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## dr tim

You have to wonder how certain fish are included in this statement when they are out of season certain times of the year.


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## dr tim

Kevin;

Dr Tim's is made up of me and one other office employee, that is it. Our marketing strategy has nothing tied to having people post posts for me nor do I offer any ideas other than what I deem to be helpful in a veterinary/nutrtional sense. They are my opinions derived from years of being a vet, conferances, talking and working with many nutritionists over the years. My own group of 30 alaskan huskies have benefited from many trials of foods and different ingredients to find what worked the best for what they do for a living. This knowledge and the knowledge gained from working with many other kennels has been applied to making a much better food for the everyday dog and beyond. I am darn proud of what we have done and what we stand for but always strive to make it better. Paying someone to go and bash other companies would definitely be the farthest thing from what we are about that I can think of and would be offensive to me.

I believe forums like this do open dialogue for many to try to better understand nutrition and hopefully we can be open minded to others ideas. It doesn't always mean we incorporate them but at least see if we can get our arms around where they are coming from.


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## dr tim

I believe the reason for this being fad like came purely from the web, not because there was a proven validity to this approach outside of hypoallergenic diets. Marketing made this occur and people did buy into it. Inadvertently some of the grain free diets really did prove to be good diets because the overall carb levels dropped in the these foods.

AS to why we have created a grain free it was the idea that if so many folks desire this let's look at this type of diet and attempt to formulate it better as to the ideas we hold to. We could go back and forth all day on individual ingredients and placements on the label but think of it this way; If you want a balanced amino acid profile it is often better achieved using a variety of animal sources versus just a lot of one. Add them all up as to the total prot/fat and carbs, look at the ash content and maybe that helps with understanding what really is in the formula versus saying "fresh meat is the first ingredient". Marketing methods drive me nuts.


Lastly, all meals are considered dehydrated, it is just the method of how one company wants to market said ingredient to the public.


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## DaViking

dr tim said:


> You have to wonder how certain fish are included in this statement when they are out of season certain times of the year.


Are you referring to Orijens fresh walleye and northern pike? Technically they are in season all year in many provinces/zones in Canada. I don't know how sufficient availability would work out though. Personally I don't put that much weight into fancy wording anyway, all I care about in terms of fish ingredients is that it's not rancid prior to whatever processing. How can I tell? I can't, but I know how to evaluate the results of what is fed over time.


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## 1605

monster'sdad said:


> Thanks but Submariner falls into the same trap as most people, falling for label doctoring. If he or she would do some simple math it would be obvious that Momentum has about the same carbohydrate level as Evo, but without dangerous levels of minerals.
> 
> The order of ingredients doesn't mean much, if anything. Unfortunately people fall for marketing.


By law ingredients are ordered on labels based on how much there is of that particular item, from largest proportion to least. From the FDA website:  Food manufacturers are required to list all ingredients in the food on the label. On a product label, the ingredients are listed in order of predominance, with the ingredients used in the greatest amount first, followed in descending order by those in smaller amounts. The label must list the names of any FDA-certified color additives (e.g., FD&C Blue No. 1 or the abbreviated name, Blue 1). But some ingredients can be listed collectively as "flavors," "spices," "artificial flavoring," or in the case of color additives exempt from certification, "artificial colors", without naming each one. Declaration of an allergenic ingredient in a collective or single color, flavor, or spice could be accomplished by simply naming the allergenic ingredient in the ingredient list.

So, no, it's NOT "marketing".

As for "dangerous levels of minerals", I would appreciate some evidence to back that up, not just opinion.


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## Savage Destiny

DaViking said:


> Are you referring to Orijens fresh walleye and northern pike? Technically they are in season all year in many provinces/zones in Canada. I don't know how sufficient availability would work out though. Personally I don't put that much weight into fancy wording anyway, all I care about in terms of fish ingredients is that it's not rancid prior to whatever processing. How can I tell? I can't, but I know how to evaluate the results of what is fed over time.


In my experience, the all fish varieties of Orijen and Acana both tend to have major product shortages during the winter months, because the lakes freeze over and the fish can't be caught. It's something I actually warn customers at our store about.


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## DaViking

Savage Destiny said:


> In my experience, the all fish varieties of Orijen and Acana both tend to have major product shortages during the winter months, because the lakes freeze over and the fish can't be caught. It's something I actually warn customers at our store about.


Initially that's what you would think but there are ways to do commercial fishing from/on ice. I know, I'm Norwegian, if it's two things we know well it's fishing and cold :smile: Don't know how they do things here though.
Anyway, you could be right, I'd just like to hear their side of things before I dismiss it as false or deceptive marketing.


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## 1605

DaViking said:


> Initially that's what you would think but there are ways to do commercial fishing from/on ice. I know, I'm Norwegian, if it's two things we know well it's fishing and cold :smile: Don't know how they do things here though.
> Anyway, you could be right, I'd just like to hear their side of things before I dismiss it as false or deceptive marketing.


The Great Lakes fisheries close down over the Winter months because it's just not commercially viable to ice fish or battle the bad weather that Winter brings with it. (Reference the S.S. Edmund Fitzgerald.) Plus the St. Lawrence Seaway & Welland Canal also close down. So there goes your major transportation routes.

Winter is also not the time to be out on the NE or West Coast fisheries. Thus, "fresh fish" is not available in large quantities in North America because only Caribbean fish would be in the marketplace.

FWIW,


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## DaViking

SubMariner said:


> The Great Lakes fisheries close down over the Winter months because it's just not commercially viable to ice fish or battle the bad weather that Winter brings with it. (Reference the S.S. Edmund Fitzgerald.) Plus the St. Lawrence Seaway & Welland Canal also close down. So there goes your major transportation routes.
> 
> Winter is also not the time to be out on the NE or West Coast fisheries. Thus, "fresh fish" is not available in large quantities in North America because only Caribbean fish would be in the marketplace.
> 
> FWIW,


Commercial net fishing from the ice are done right across Canada I see, I don't think Orijen buys anything from the great lakes fisheries though. The only question is the volume. I don't know how much they need to buy per run. Maybe something like 250kg to 500kg of lakefish (walleye and pike) per run of the 6Fish formula?

Winter is a great time for cod and flounder fisheries.


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## kevin bradley

Tim,

I think most of appreciate you coming in and explaining your position on some of this stuff. I'll say it again, I'd like to try your food which says I respect the work you've done. 

Whats becoming more and more difficult is that every claim has a counterpoint and there is a constant stream of information flying around the internet. In fact, the more I "research" the more confused I get. 

In one week I've seen the following...

*you come out with a Grain Free line after I specifically recall you saying that Grain Free was a fad and not relevent to good nutrition

*seen a Poster brag up and down about Ohio Pet foods and how they don't "Flash cook" their ingredients. I later find out that this is not as revolutionary as they claimed.

*seen a Poster brag about Pro Plan which is a food severely lacking in any MEAT--the first ingredient is Chicken(which admittedly doesn't list weight but I think we'd all agree, it AIN'T gonna stay at #1) and the next 4-5 ingredients range from Whole Grain Wheat to god knows what in the Poultry By Product. Corn Gluten Meal is another splendid ingredient in there also. Frankly, this food would be about the last food I would recommend though the Doggy Bag food at TSC does probably stoop even lower.

*Constant new posters pop up out of nowhere with very few posts raving about your food. Come on, you have to admit, this is peculiar if nothing else. They typically say the same thing each time. I tried to indicate that I have no PROOF that they are all linked, only that something didn't smell right with it. 

So, I guess in summary... I'm only saying that there is a lot of crap flying around here and I'm not sure who to believe or who not to believe. Its becoming more and more challenging.


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## dr tim

Kevin;

I am with you on this one. The internet is a good and also a scary place as there is so much info that it seems only to confuse. For instance, if you looked at the inserts for a medicine and read the warnings there is no way you would take anything, even aspirin. Maybe many folks actually go that route and that is their call, which I respect.

As to others posting excited statements about a food, plant or ingredient, they must be just enthusiastic or very loyal. I have not walked in their shoes so I don't know where they are coming from. The machismo of being behind a keyboard is strong for some.

As to a revolutionary production method, the choice is to run a certain production machine slower so the processing is done differently. Thus, you can't make nearly as much food on a per hour basis as you could and investors look at bottom line. I look at bottom line results in the idea of animal health and what is best for them. Slower production can yield a much more digestible product because the carbs are properly cooked. Why not try to attain a 95% carb digestibility versus the industry norm of 80-85%, for instance?

Yes, the grain frees did begin as a huge fad, never quite saw anything like it but we vets are familiar with this diet in our settings as a doctor. Now mainstream and people are utilizing them to a degree that warrants attention, why not try to improve on its' design and move forward. If this means to you that I am a hypocrite, so be it. I am not afraid to look at my position and see if I am needing a readjustment, as my wife likes to say. Again, my original comments on this diet were not to the validity of the diets' purpose but how it was an internet fad that took off. Is it the panacea of all diets-I do not believe so. Did it improve some aspects of how we feed dogs and cats-possibly. Are the grain frees still confusing the pet owner in what they are offering-definitely.

Appreciate the cordial dialogue.


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## kevin bradley

Precisely, Tim.

CORN is a PERFECT example. 

If I HATE corn, I can do a search online and find out how detrimental it is to both humans and Dogs.

If I LOVE corn, I can do a search online and find out how it is great for humans and Dogs. 


For the average consumer, we don't have laboratories or the money to fund a 10 year study so we depend on some honesty from Manufacturers/the industry. Good luck there.


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## 6Goldens

kevin bradley said:


> Precisely, Tim.
> 
> CORN is a PERFECT example.
> 
> If I HATE corn, I can do a search online and find out how detrimental it is to both humans and Dogs.
> 
> If I LOVE corn, I can do a search online and find out how it is great for humans and Dogs.
> 
> 
> For the average consumer, we don't have laboratories or the money to fund a 10 year study so we depend on some honesty from Manufacturers/the industry. Good luck there.


Add citric acid and canola oil to that list.


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## kevin bradley

how about the human consumption debate....

Currently, wheat and Gluten are under attack. Everyone is Gluten "intolerant." I will watch the Today show and see how important whole grains and fiber are for your diet. Then I will see that Gluten and Grains are the devil and are killing you from the inside out. Ever try to get fiber and grains that don't have Gluten in them?...not very easy I will tell you.

Christ, I can't keep up with it. And I'm not talking Cigarrettes and obesity here(both obviously bad)... I'm talking foods that are PROVEN to be healthy that are now evil. Oh another one... Bananas. Freaking Bananas are now being knocked.


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## DaViking

I am now going to pre-masticate all carbohydrates for Chips... no seriously. Kevein, you'll find that the most healthiest ppl on the planet are the ones who doesn't have this constant flow of "preachers" getting exposure for all kinds of scientific tidbits that means very little in the end. They know the truth to living a happy and healthy life is somewhere in the middle of all this crazy information and fads. Eat your corn with good conscience but don't fill your breakfast plate with useless american pancakes smothered in some fake maple syrup loaded with high fructose corn syrup. So simple, so hard.


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## kevin bradley

true. so true.


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## dr tim

Honesty from pet food manufacturers; that is why I started making my own dog food.


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## Kibblelady

SubMariner said:


> You wouldn't happen to work for Dr Tim, would you? :wink: It just seems to me that most of your posts seem to deal with this dog food. Forgive me for being just a little wary....
> 
> Yes, it appears to be decent dog food. But I prefer the carbs in my dog's food to be further down the ingredient list: rice is the 2nd named ingredient in this food's analysis.
> 
> For more protein, I prefer: Meat- and Poultry-Based Pet Food ? Premium Dog Food, Cat Food, Ferret Food, Dog Treats ? EVO Pet Products



"Further down on the list" is not an accurate determination in how much "carbs" are in a food the way you are referring to it. This is a common problem I see on boards. If a food were 90% chicken and 10% rice the rice would be second in line but not a majority of the diet simply because it was listed second. You need to look at the guaranteed analysis and be able to analyze what is going on in each food and formula with any product. It is not as simple as the order of listed ingredients.


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## Kibblelady

kevin bradley said:


> there is something very peculiar with some of these posts. I see eerily similar posts on other forums regarding some of these same foods... Annamaet, Tim's, etc....
> 
> I'm not sure whats going on.
> 
> Anyone see Star Wars when Obi One senses something... a disturbance in "the force"
> 
> 
> Drumroll please.... I think we're approaching a post that is going to tell us why Ohio Pet Foods is the greatest food plant in the world and why its ok to have rice as the 2nd ingredient.
> 
> (just a guess)


Kevin, I spout the virtues of Ohio Pet Foods, something wrong with that? I have simply always been satisfied with anything they have produced under any label, it's not coincidental. I notice the difference in products made in other plants. Make sense?


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## Kibblelady

SaharaNight Boxers said:


> Good marketing strategy isn't it?


Helping people or taking an interest in their feeding situation is a marketing strategy? Lol if that were true I would be rich off my checks from LA. I seriously just like helping people with their pets and more often than not recommend something other than what I feed or sell due to the person who is asking me for information needs. Making money off something is not "bad" or anything to be distrustful of, manipulating people is IMO and I cannot tell you how many of the companies that are praised on the board are doing that


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## Kibblelady

SubMariner said:


> By law ingredients are ordered on labels based on how much there is of that particular item, from largest proportion to least. From the FDA website:  Food manufacturers are required to list all ingredients in the food on the label. On a product label, the ingredients are listed in order of predominance, with the ingredients used in the greatest amount first, followed in descending order by those in smaller amounts.


Right, descending listed in order of amount. However, you do not know the amounts simply by looking at the ingredient panel. We do not see enough focus on the Nutritional Analysis profile, this is very important. When looking at an ingredient panel the largest components will be listed before the fat and fiber sources. The fewer ingredients before those two and usually the larger the initially listed ingredient is, that is if the protein content is moderate to high.


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## Kibblelady

kevin bradley said:


> *seen a Poster brag up and down about Ohio Pet foods and how they don't "Flash cook" their ingredients. I later find out that this is not as revolutionary as they claimed.
> 
> *seen a Poster brag about Pro Plan which is a food severely lacking in any MEAT--the first ingredient is Chicken(which admittedly doesn't list weight but I think we'd all agree, it AIN'T gonna stay at #1) and the next 4-5 ingredients range from Whole Grain Wheat to god knows what in the Poultry By Product. Corn Gluten Meal is another splendid ingredient in there also. Frankly, this food would be about the last food I would recommend though the Doggy Bag food at TSC does probably stoop even lower.


These two things above were from me. What connection at all do I have to "Dr Tim?" 12 years ago OPFs were the only company with their cooking method. It is still not a wide spread cooking method as most foods *are* flash cooked... why do I sense a tone in reference to OPFs due to my commending them for being a very good plant? Why does my accolades of them seem to somehow be being turned into something sinister or underhanded?

As for Pro Plan, you have your opinion I have mine, enough said. That has absolutely nothing to do with OPFs, Dr Tim's food or anything else on this thread so I am confused as to why it was included?


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## Kibblelady

kevin bradley said:


> Precisely, Tim.
> 
> CORN is a PERFECT example.
> 
> If I HATE corn, I can do a search online and find out how detrimental it is to both humans and Dogs.
> 
> If I LOVE corn, I can do a search online and find out how it is great for humans and Dogs.
> 
> 
> For the average consumer, we don't have laboratories or the money to fund a 10 year study so we depend on some honesty from Manufacturers/the industry. Good luck there.


Kevin, I honestly would like to you to post for me a few examples of proof that corn is detrimental to dogs as you posted. I do not make posts about corn as I do because I have some interest in supporting the ingredient, it is because I was curious and researched it for months at one point. I did not go looking for supportive statements to an argument as you are referring to but honestly collected information and then came to a conclusion. I do ask people to supply me with information when they post as you have done....and not from one of the popular nutritional blogs ect, not just statements, but proof as I still am interested in the topic and always consider new information supplied to me in the event I need to adjust my thinking or conclusion.


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## KittyKat

DaViking said:


> I am now going to pre-masticate all carbohydrates for Chips... no seriously. Kevein, you'll find that the most healthiest ppl on the planet are the ones who doesn't have this constant flow of "preachers" getting exposure for all kinds of scientific tidbits that means very little in the end. They know the truth to living a happy and healthy life is somewhere in the middle of all this crazy information and fads. Eat your corn with good conscience but don't fill your breakfast plate with useless american pancakes smothered in some fake maple syrup loaded with high fructose corn syrup. So simple, so hard.


What's an American pancake? I don't make pancakes (I make buckwheat crepes a lot) so i'm not all up on this 'lingo'.


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## DaViking

KittyKat said:


> What's an American pancake? I don't make pancakes (I make buckwheat crepes a lot) so i'm not all up on this 'lingo'.


just any other white flour pancake.

Pancakes are pancakes no matter where you go but N. American pancakes are small and thick and millions have thought for decades that it is a good and appropriate way of starting the day. Pour some high fructose corn syrup and that bad boy stack and face the day!


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## KittyKat

DaViking said:


> just any other white flour pancake.
> 
> Pancakes are pancakes no matter where you go but N. American pancakes are small and thick and millions have thought for decades that it is a good and appropriate way of starting the day. Pour some high fructose corn syrup and that bad boy stack *and face the day!*


On the toilet groaning in pain? Sounds good to me~!
But yeah, HFCS is just gross. Maple Syrup bats that one out of the stadium for a home run any day of the week.

I will say that I really do like buckwheat crepes with fresh fruit...


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## kevin bradley

Kibblelady said:


> Kevin, I honestly would like to you to post for me a few examples of proof that corn is detrimental to dogs as you posted. I do not make posts about corn as I do because I have some interest in supporting the ingredient, it is because I was curious and researched it for months at one point. I did not go looking for supportive statements to an argument as you are referring to but honestly collected information and then came to a conclusion. I do ask people to supply me with information when they post as you have done....and not from one of the popular nutritional blogs ect, not just statements, but proof as I still am interested in the topic and always consider new information supplied to me in the event I need to adjust my thinking or conclusion.



Hey, I think we're on the same page. I'm not saying corn is good or bad. I was only stating that you can probably find arguments for both. My only point was to say that conclusions are damn difficult.

Are there studies that show us Corn is superior to Meat as a primary ingredient? I'm serious, I'd like to see them.

Ok, I'll bite. This took me 1 minute to find on a Google Search... I don't know how CONCLUSIVE this is because admittedly, I'm not versed in reading medical jargon...

Evaluation of the clinical and allergen specific serum immunoglobulin*E responses to oral challenge with cornstarch, corn, soy and a soy hydrolysate diet in dogs with spontaneous food allergy - Jackson - 2003 - Veterinary Dermatology - Wiley Online L


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## kevin bradley

Kibblelady said:


> These two things above were from me. What connection at all do I have to "Dr Tim?" 12 years ago OPFs were the only company with their cooking method. It is still not a wide spread cooking method as most foods *are* flash cooked... why do I sense a tone in reference to OPFs due to my commending them for being a very good plant? Why does my accolades of them seem to somehow be being turned into something sinister or underhanded?
> 
> As for Pro Plan, you have your opinion I have mine, enough said. That has absolutely nothing to do with OPFs, Dr Tim's food or anything else on this thread so I am confused as to why it was included?



Seriously, you REALLY think Pro Plan is a good food? I realize their cooking methods may be mouth watering to every Engineer in the world. But the first few ingredients are as follow...

Chicken
Poulty By Product
Wheat and Brewers rice
Whole Grain Corn and Corn Gluten Meal

I mean, if this represents a good food... about 90% of us out here need to do a serious self examination of everything we believe about Dog Food.

I don't care how they cook their ingedients if I don't agree that the ingredients are appropriate for my Dogs. In my opinion, its lipstick on a pig.


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## kevin bradley

Also, as a general statement...

If we REQUIRE 100% Scientific, Irrefutable Clinical evidence that what we are doing for our Dogs Nutritional needs....

Well, we are pretty much gonna turn this entire forum upside down because much of what we are doing is pretty Anecdotal. 

I'm just sayin' that it is gigantic can of worms to open.


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## meggels

kevin bradley said:


> Seriously, you REALLY think Pro Plan is a good food? I realize their cooking methods may be mouth watering to every Engineer in the world. But the first few ingredients are as follow...
> 
> Chicken
> Poulty By Product
> Wheat and Brewers rice
> Whole Grain Corn and Corn Gluten Meal
> 
> I mean, if this represents a good food... about 90% of us out here need to do a serious self examination of everything we believe about Dog Food.
> 
> I don't care how they cook their ingedients if I don't agree that the ingredients are appropriate for my Dogs. *In my opinion, its lipstick on pig.*



Hey, what's wrong with that?


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