# An argument AGAINST spaying/neutering (LONG)



## MissusMac

This was posted by an ADMIN on another forum I am on, and I was truly appalled by it. The post is too long to put in here, so I C&P it to a Google document. 
HERE is the link to the entire thing



My response to this was: *Who did this study? I actually find it quite inconclusive, and it even says so in the last sentence. We can debate this topic all day, but in the end I would have to see real, conclusive, strong evidence before I go preaching against S&N.

I would think that the problem of pet overpopulation is as bad in Europe as it is in the States, and I would hope that people realize the severity of the problem instead of looking for an excuse to possibly contribute to it. Having an unsterilized dog, if you are not a reputable breeder, is very irresponsible to me. But if you have your reasons and you believe that you are justified, then I'm sure there is nothing I can do to change your mind. *

What do you think? I've never seen an argument for S&N for a dog's health, and all I can think is how overpopulated with pets we are.


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## lauren43

I have always been under the impression that unaltered pets were more likely to get cancer in the genials (or that region) as they age...


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## MissusMac

And the argument that vets promote it just for more money is very weak because I know of numerous low-cost S&N programs here.


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## DaneMama

I'm not going to read the whole thing. Why? Because any GOOD well rounded and conclusive article has an EXTENSIVE reference list. For all we know the author of this article pulled all those figures and numbers out of their  

First and foremost I would ask to see references and until they are provided that article is a bunch of hogwash to me. That goes for any "scientific" article on any subject...


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## mel2mdl

No sources, no credibility. 

I used to be a huge supporter of 'snip them when their young' - as soon as the testes drop. But after researching quite a bit, I think for larger dogs waiting, if the dog is not aggressive, is usually better for bone/muscle development. Smaller dogs are usually full size within a year, larger can take up to 3 years. Waiting until they are full, or nearly full, grown just seems to make sense. But, not neutering at all? No, doesn't make much sense to me.


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## doggiedad

i've never neutered my dogs and i've
never had a problem with them.


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## Celt

Hmm, around where I live, health problems for males hasn't really been focused on (for females-yes). Here, it's mostly reccommended for "behavioral issues". Of course the vets here won't even think about fixing a dog until it's at least 6 mos.
I will agree that "fixing" a dog at a really young age can cause problems. I've read enough "studies", anecdotal, etc after we bought our youngest iggie, because he was fixed before 9 wks, (I hadn't even realized a vet would do it that early) to make me worry. And I've seen a difference in his bone structure, muscularity, and behavior. 
One thing in this "study" did annoy me. The obsesity issue. Yes, a dog is more likely to get chubbier because they're not "fretting" (as my dad would say) themselves. Of course all a person has to do is exercise the dog or if nothing else feed less.


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## mel2mdl

doggiedad said:


> i've never neutered my dogs and i've
> never had a problem with them.


I've never had un-neutered dogs and I've never had a problem with them either!  Actually, when I was a kid, I had an intact male - died of testicular cancer.


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## bumblegoat

Now, I did not read that long thing, but I want to comment on the situation in Europe. It varies greatly from country to country - I have never ever seen a stray dog in my life, and I'm not afraid to say that they pretty much don't exist here. Spaying and neutering is not very common at all in Sweden, but it is getting more and more common. The same thing could most likely be said about the other Scandinavian countries, as we have a very similiar culture.

Cats on the other hand are a different story. We have many stray/feral cats here, and spaying and neutering them is very common.

In other countries, such as many eastern European countries, or countries like Spain and even Ireland, pet overpopulation is a concern. Of course it also varies depending on country and region. I don't know how common it is to spay and neuter there...

I honestly don't think spaying and neutering is the key to controlling pet population. The thing that I think might have a lot more to do with it is the animal's status in our society. Here dogs are usually well cared for, and most people wouldn't even dream of letting a dog be an "outside dog". 

Cats, well, they have a very low status here compared to dogs. Outside cats are the norm. People won't pay more than $10 for a cat, while they might very well pay $500 for a mutt from the neighbour. Dogs are insured, cats are not. Dogs have to be chipped or tattooed, it's required by law, but cats do not.

I could go on and on about this.

I really think the way the average pet owner views their pet is the key. Not my intact dog, that never ever has had the chance to breed. I promise, taking away his testicles is not the key to population control, nor is doing it to my neighbour's dog.


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## SpooOwner

Here's a link to the original article (not the discussion on the other forum). Note the original article has references; when the person posted the article on the other forum, he/she deleted them.

I think this is a useful article. It's a lit review showing the health trade-offs between fixed and unfixed dogs. It's not inconclusive, it's just complex: some risks increase after spay/neuter, some decrease. Some risks will increase or decrease depending on when the surgery is done. So, there are trade-offs between having the surgery and not having the surgery in regards to the overall health of the individual dog. When thinking about my dog, I layered in the most common ailments of her breed, and looked primarily at those risks. She's a large breed female, which has a high risk of osteosarcoma. The risk decreases if you wait until she's a year old to spay her. So that's what I'm doing.

What's lacking from the article is the acknowledgment that the author is only considering the health of the individual dog, and hasn't factored in concerns about over-population, risk of an un-planned litter, or human lifestyle factors. Even though neutering a male may marginally lower its health, I, personally, would chose to neuter to prevent any litters, prevent/decrease marking and humping behaviors, and so that my pup can still go to doggy daycare. But based on this article, I would probably wait until he's one year old.


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## Chocx2

I have had many animals in my life time large and small dogs some fixed and some not. They were all taken care of well and lived well over 10 years of age. And none of them were ever bread.....

I call that being a responsible pet owner.....

When humans are fixed, women, they have to take hormone replacement to stay healthy, kinda makes you think...


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## BrownieM

I have seen and read that article several times and I think it points out some good information. The health benefits of spaying females seems to be greater than that of neutering males. And that spaying females and neutering males after full maturity is a good idea.

I don't even see that article as being against spaying and neutering. I see it as pointing out some valid facts to the other side of the argument. Too many vets want to snip snip at 4 months and that simply isn't the answer. As pet owners we should know the pros and cons of spaying and neutering. There are many other points to consider and those are discussed in the article.


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## RawFedDogs

I think vets are in a hurry to "snip" because they want to do it while you are still their client. You may not be their client when the pup grows up and someone else will get that money.


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## Chocx2

I think your right about the money thing and the client thing "I agree"

A vet told me that if you are going to fix the animal you should do it after they are 1 year old or more so the growth plates have time to connect something like that.
If a male k-9 is fixed at a young age for example they are going to be larger than they would have been having the hormones to regulate there gene and they are more prone to injury


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## luvMyBRT

Chocx2 said:


> A vet told me that if you are going to fix the animal you should do it after they are 1 year old or more so the growth plates have time to connect something like that.
> If a male k-9 is fixed at a young age for example they are going to be larger than they would have been having the hormones to regulate there gene and they are more prone to injury


I am getting Duncan neutered when he hits 18 months. I feel this is important when it comes to male large breed dogs. 

My Rottie I had neutered right at 6 months. He was very tall and lanky his whole life. He looked like a teenage dog. At 8 years old people often thought he was a pup or young adult. He also died of bone cancer at 9 years old which is also linked to early neutering. Duncan is now 10 months old and I can tell that he is not only growing taller, but he is filling out and getting the mass and bulk to him that many large breed male dogs will have (which I am sure the testosterone plays a part in too). My Rottie was very tall, but lacked in the pure bulk and mass that a lot of male Rotties have. I have always wondered if it was due to being neutered at a young age....I am leaning towards yes.


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## CavePaws

Just wanted to point out that S&N does not always fix aggression...Females can become worse after being spayed, I know Indi became worse after being spayed at 5 months. Tucker, a male of ours, had zero improvement in his aggression because of neutering. 

Veterinarians are usually no behaviorist and if they try to tell you to spay/neuter your dog because of 'future aggression issues', walk away. Another note, if your dog is already 'marking' neutering him is NOT going to stop this behavior. Indi hikes her leg up to mark things and *she* is spayed, only started doing this after being spayed when she hit a little over a year. That's one pissy female dog for you. ;] All my male dogs who were neutered before they started lifting their legs still do a lean to pee. The male who was neutered at a year lifts his leg and marks things on walks.

Luvmybrt - I think you're right. Our dog Tucker who had pretty severe aggression at 4 months old, vet told us to neuter him before it got worse, now has hip problems and barely any muscle in his hind legs. It's really sad, my father who is Tucker's main care taker is livid with the veterinarian for suggesting this/neutering him so early. Tucker is 5 now and is on several supplements for his hips and a low daily dose of baby aspirin. It's sad, it most likely could have been prevented if he had been allowed to mature like he should have.


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## BrownieM

I have owned 2 male standard poodles. Both were neutered before they lifted their legs (one neutered at 1 year and 1 at 6 months). Both didn't begin lifting their leg until after they were neutered. From what I have heard, leg lifting may be a learned behavior?


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## CavePaws

That's really interesting BrownieM! I wonder if it's a personal preference as well? Preston and Tucker have our dog Puck to learn from when it comes to lifting their leg and neither have followed suit. I know Indi marks just to mark and actively seeks out other dogs pee to mark over.


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## BrownieM

When Henry first started lifting his leg, he would try and squat at the same time. It was HIlarious.


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## werecatrising

Both my male dogs were neutered at about 6 months of age. They both started lifting their leg at about a year and a half.


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## KlaMarie

I terms of health, I think there are pro and cons to each side of the spay/neuter argument. So it all comes down to personal opinions and preferences. 

But I won't be speutering any of my dogs until they're at least 2 years old, especially the large breed ones. Really, I don't have any problems with people wanting to keep their dogs intact.....as long as you can be a responsible dog owner. For the majority of the population, I would recommend speuter. But if you understand the responsibilities and risks associated with intact dogs, then to each his own.


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## luvMyBRT

werecatrising said:


> Both my male dogs were neutered at about 6 months of age. They both started lifting their leg at about a year and a half.


Same here. My Rottie was neutered at 6 months and started lifting his leg at a year old. Duncan just turned 10 months, is not neutered, and already has started to lift his leg.


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## _Trish

I did see an improvement regarding aggression when I had Kirby neutered. I was going to wait until he was 2 years old, he's not a large breed but he's a French Bulldog, and they usually continue to fill out until they are 2 years old. Well, he started picking fights with the other dogs, humping the dogs all the time, and marking things in the house when he was 10 months old, so we scheduled an appointment to have him neutered, and he hasn't displayed either behavior since. He's much more laid back and mellow. He has been lifting his leg since he was 5 months old, my other Frenchie was neutered at 1 year old, and he didn't start lifting his leg until he was about 1 1/2. Ellie was spayed when she was 1 1/2 and Peanut was spayed when she was 5 months old, we had her prolapsed nictitan gland (cherry eye) repaired at the same time. 

I just don't see a point in keeping pets intact. I feel like my dogs are happier not being intact, they aren't constantly wanting to breed all of the time. When I would go to the dog park with Kirby before he was neutered, all he wanted to do was hump the other dogs, and he never does that now.. he's 2 years old. Louie will do it once in awhile, but his is more of a dominance thing. At the daycare I work at, there is a 7 month old Welsh Spaniel and all he wants to do is lick the female dogs all over and hump them. If I separate him from the girls, he whines and cries and will not play with the males. Pretty soon we are going to tell the owners that he can no longer come to daycare unless he is neutered. He can't even enjoy being around and playing with the other dogs.. so it's pointless for him to be there.


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## Celt

I have see no reason not to "fix" an animal that your not breeding, but after learning about the problems (and experiencing a couple) about early neutering, I can honestly say that I would not get any of my dogs "fixed" at an early age barring any health issues. Our youngest Iggie was neutered before he was 9 wks old, he's more likely to "mark" when we're out than his "brother" who was neutered at 8 months :0)


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