# Earthborn



## Jacksons Mom

I'm pretty sure I'm going to try a bag of Earthborn tomorrow... 

I did a few searches, but didn't come up with a *whole* lot but I like what I hear about the company and the food seems nice.

Jackson's been doing great on Acana Lamb & Apple, but the bag's almost done and it would be nice to be able to pick up his food 5 mins away at the Pet Valu. The only place with Lamb & Apple is 25 mins away right near the mall, and I hate driving there. Plus Earthborn is cheaper. I'd probably still keep Acana in the mix, but just wanted an alternative. 

Anyways... anything else I should know... any experience with it? 

Probably going with the Meadow Feast or Great Plains Feast. Possibly the grain inclusive Ocean Fusion, but I tend to get grossed out by too fishy smelling foods... anyone know if it's strong?

One thing I noticed is the omega 3's and omega 6's seem higher in this food, than some others. Is this correct? Good thing, bad thing, doesn't make a difference?

Meadow feast: http://www.earthbornholisticpetfood.com/us/dog_formulas/meadow_feast/guaranteed_analysis.php

Great Plains Feast: http://www.earthbornholisticpetfood.com/us/dog_formulas/great_plains_feast/


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## meggels

I fed the puppy vantage to Abbie when she was little, and both dogs have had the Great Plains Feast and Primitive Natural. Abbie has done AMAZING on both. She loves the GPF especially. I like their small breed formula too. I do think I tried a bag of Ocean Fusion at one point, but can't remember how it went, sorry ;( I used to work for them, they are a great company.


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## Makovach

I know the grain free fish is VERY fishy smelling. Never been around the other. 

I know a lot of people who use Earthborn. 

They are made by propac dog food- so that's a downer.


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## Unosmom

I have mixed feeling about the company, for the price their food has decent ingredient, but the company has been less then forthcoming about disclosing protein levels of meat vs plant protein, which makes me think, they've got something to hide. I tried Uno on primitihve natural and while he liked the taste, I noticed that his teeth got a lot more buildup then any other food I tried. 
But then again, every dog does differently, so its worth a shot.


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## NotAChampionFan

Makovach said:


> I know the grain free fish is VERY fishy smelling. Never been around the other.
> 
> I know a lot of people who use Earthborn.
> 
> They are made by propac dog food- so that's a downer.


You are saying Midwestern Pet Foods is a downer? Perhaps you shouldn't be giving advice. That is great EU Cert. plant with a great team of people. Never a recall, unlike Diamond and Champion. Easily one of the best plants and most ethical people around.

Earthborn is a really good food and a great value, and so is Pro Pac.

If someone has the choice between Taste of The Wild and Earthborn, Earthborn for sure.

As for the Omega 3's, I would leave that to the nutritionist there. I am sure he or she knows how to formulate.


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## Jacksons Mom

Yeah, I actually don't have a problem with Midwestern Foods and I agree, I would feed it over anything at Diamond.


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## Jacksons Mom

I really like their customer service - they seem REALLY involved in answering peoples questions, on FB, email, etc. I asked them about kibble size on facebook and got a response right away. I really like that


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## Caty M

NotAChampionFan said:


> You are saying Midwestern Pet Foods is a downer? Perhaps you shouldn't be giving advice. That is great EU Cert. plant with a great team of people. Never a recall, unlike Diamond and Champion. Easily one of the best plants and most ethical people around.
> 
> Earthborn is a really good food and a great value, and so is Pro Pac.
> 
> If someone has the choice between Taste of The Wild and Earthborn, Earthborn for sure.
> 
> *As for the Omega 3's, I would leave that to the nutritionist there. I am sure he or she knows how to formulate.*


I know nothing of the company or the food.. but I don't agree with that statement there at all. The food is using grain fed animals, which basically eliminates the O3s that would be in the food had they been eating a natural diet- it's always important to supplement with O3s like salmon, krill oil etc. Any standard western diet (people or animal) is woefully deficient in O3 fatty acids.


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## xellil

NotAChampionFan said:


> That is great EU Cert. plant with a great team of people. Never a recall, unlike Diamond and Champion. Easily one of the best plants and most ethical people around.


No recalls doesn't mean much. I don't think any chinese jerky treats have been recalled.

And EU certified - that's no great shakes either.



> It appears APHIS EU means little. If indeed this certification guaranteed human grade ingredients at one point in time (I doubt it all now), that is no longer the case. All it takes is a signature of a veterinarian that probably didn't see one bit of raw material that went into that pet food. The one good of this certification, until it gets stricken too, is that none of the pet food can contain specified risk materials (suspect mad cow disease materials). That's seems to be it.


I Take it All Back

I have no idea if it's good or bad dog food. But EU certified doesn't make it good.


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## Neeko

My two LOVED Primitive Natural when they ate it. Neither seemed to particularly care for the Great Plains Feast. 
I don't know much about the company. They are an Indiana company, which I like. They seem to be concerned about the environment. One of our local supplies stores frequently has drawings for free trees, that is sponsored by Earthborn.


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## Jacksons Mom

I got a sample bag of Great Plains Feast and Jackson is going to town! I'll see how it goes.


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## Makovach

I wasn't saying its a bad food. I just have my doubts of the company. I buy earthborn for my rats and I recommend it to quite a few friends and customers that are on a budget. Its not a bad food. 

Now propac, I've had major issues with in the past. It's also IMO not a quality food. More or less Purina o pedigree quality.

As xeilli said, recalls don't mean much and the EU doesn't either. 

The. Only thing I worry about with earthborn is the quality of ingredients. And that's because I've not gotten any good solid information on it.


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## catahoulamom

I don't have much input except that I wanted to let you know that the Ocean Fusion does not have the strong fishy smell that the grain-free Coastal Catch has. One of my clients feeds her two westies the Ocean Fusion and I've never noticed a strong fishy smell when I feed them (I suppose because it's not very high meat content). Also the kibbles are pretty large, I think I remember you saying Jackson prefers large kibble in one of your previous posts. Her westies have ridiculously sensitive stomachs and she feeds them the Ocean Fusion in the AM and NV Raw Lamb in the PM and they do surprisingly well (for such a complicated diet with a lot of ingredients). I have a lot of positive feedback on Earthborn (both the regular and grain-free formulas) from customers.


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## bridget246

NotAChampionFan said:


> You are saying Midwestern Pet Foods is a downer? Perhaps you shouldn't be giving advice. That is great EU Cert. plant with a great team of people. Never a recall, unlike Diamond and Champion. Easily one of the best plants and most ethical people around.
> 
> Earthborn is a really good food and a great value, and so is Pro Pac.
> 
> If someone has the choice between Taste of The Wild and Earthborn, Earthborn for sure.
> 
> As for the Omega 3's, I would leave that to the nutritionist there. I am sure he or she knows how to formulate.


Remember, Champion and Diamond had a volunteer recall. They were not force to do it. As other have said EU Cert just means a vet signed off on it. I know of great people who work at fast food places. Does that make fast food healthy? Not trying to belittle your points here but they don't prove anything about the quality of the food. 




Makovach said:


> I know the grain free fish is VERY fishy smelling. Never been around the other.
> 
> I know a lot of people who use Earthborn.
> 
> They are made by propac dog food- so that's a downer.


I wish you didn't know of anyone that fed it. Carlos didn't do well on it stool wise and body condition. He is getting a little more muscle back now that I switched his food. He was 44 pounds when I took him home that day.


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## Jacksons Mom

bridget246 said:


> I wish you didn't know of anyone that fed it. Carlos didn't do well on it stool wise and body condition. He is getting a little more muscle back now that I switched his food. He was 44 pounds when I took him home that day.


You wish that Makovach didn't know anyone that fed Earthborn? Why?

Just because your dog didn't do well on it, doesn't mean nobody else should feed it?

Jackson did not do well on Orijen - I still think it's a GREAT food and others do fantastic on it. 

Anyways, I won't be able to judge anything probably until we finish the whole bag at least, so we'll see how it goes, but taste test passes!


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## NotAChampionFan

Caty M said:


> I know nothing of the company or the food.. but I don't agree with that statement there at all. The food is using grain fed animals, which basically eliminates the O3s that would be in the food had they been eating a natural diet- it's always important to supplement with O3s like salmon, krill oil etc. Any standard western diet (people or animal) is woefully deficient in O3 fatty acids.


You, respectfully, don't have a clue. I say that only so that other people realize this. Please stop with your foolishness. 

Please let me get you a room with some nutritionists I know and let's see how you do.

The Earthborn foods have sufficient Omegas 3's, in fact, some are actually close to being to0 high at close to 2%.

I am sure the Phd's at Midwestern Pet Foods and the ones that consult them can handle the situation. You should email them and offer your services.


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## NotAChampionFan

Makovach said:


> I wasn't saying its a bad food. I just have my doubts of the company. I buy earthborn for my rats and I recommend it to quite a few friends and customers that are on a budget. Its not a bad food.
> 
> Now propac, I've had major issues with in the past. It's also IMO not a quality food. More or less Purina o pedigree quality.
> 
> As xeilli said, recalls don't mean much and the EU doesn't either.
> 
> The. Only thing I worry about with earthborn is the quality of ingredients. And that's because I've not gotten any good solid information on it.


More foolish statements by both you an Xeilli. Is any kibble as good as fresh food in good balance, NO, but when someone says the ingredients used in Aphis EU doesn't mean much doesn't know a thing about pet food. Do some other plants without a Cert make good foods, but the presence of rules means a lot

No recalls doesn't mean anything?

Is your choice of pet food APHIS EU Certified?

Nothing is perfect, but in the kibble world it means a lot.


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## Makovach

bridget246 said:


> Remember, Champion and Diamond had a volunteer recall. They were not force to do it. As other have said EU Cert just means a vet signed off on it. I know of great people who work at fast food places. Does that make fast food healthy? Not trying to belittle your points here but they don't prove anything about the quality of the food.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I wish you didn't know of anyone that fed it. Carlos didn't do well on it stool wise and body condition. He is getting a little more muscle back now that I switched his food. He was 44 pounds when I took him home that day.


My boxers didn't do well on it either. But it beats them feeding purina. I know a lot of dogs that do great on it tho.


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## NotAChampionFan

bridget246 said:


> Remember, Champion and Diamond had a volunteer recall. They were not force to do it. As other have said EU Cert just means a vet signed off on it. I know of great people who work at fast food places. Does that make fast food healthy? Not trying to belittle your points here but they don't prove anything about the quality of the food.
> 
> I wish you didn't know of anyone that fed it. Carlos didn't do well on it stool wise and body condition. He is getting a little more muscle back now that I switched his food. He was 44 pounds when I took him home that day.


You don't know what you are talking about either. Getting and keeping an Aphis EU Cert. is very difficult, it is much more than paying off a vet to sign.


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## Makovach

NotAChampionFan said:


> More foolish statements by both you an Xeilli. Is any kibble as good as fresh food in good balance, NO, but when someone says the ingredients used in Aphis EU doesn't mean much doesn't know a thing about pet food. Do some other plants without a Cert make good foods, but the presence of rules means a lot
> 
> No recalls doesn't mean anything?
> 
> Is your choice of pet food APHIS EU Certified?
> 
> Nothing is perfect, but in the kibble world it means a lot.


You should really read her new "I take it all back" article. Its ALL about how she takes back everything she said and that the aphis eu certifications really mean nothing except that a vet signed off on the food. Reality is, the vet probably didn't look at those ingredients before they signed that paper.

There can still be problems and be no recall.

Lets get back on topic. The op was asking about opinions and thats what was brought to the table is our opinions. 

You really are starting to sound like a rep. for the company. People usually don't get that testy over opinions and such.


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## xellil

NotAChampionFan said:


> You don't know what you are talking about either. Getting and keeping an Aphis EU Cert. is very difficult, it is much more than paying off a vet to sign.


Why don't you read the article I linked. It is you who don't have a clue.

Not sure what your aim is here, but I'm pretty sure you've got an agenda.

APHIS EU certification means nothing.


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## InkedMarie

Makovach said:


> I know the grain free fish is VERY fishy smelling. Never been around the other.
> 
> I know a lot of people who use Earthborn.
> 
> They are made by propac dog food- so that's a downer.


It is? Hmm, the Whole Dog Journal said it's made by Midwestern Foods or is that the same plant that makes Pro Pac?


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## NotAChampionFan

xellil said:


> Why don't you read the article I linked. It is you who don't have a clue.
> 
> Not sure what your aim is here, but I'm pretty sure you've got an agenda.
> 
> APHIS EU certification means nothing.


You and a few others parade around like experts but all you do is parrot information from the internet. When an EU Cert plant makes food every ingredient must come from a supplier that is inspected. The food must be labelled if it contains GMO ingredients and the meat meals don't need to be sprayed with dye. 

Is it perfect, NO, but it is a hell of a lot better than the alternative.


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## NotAChampionFan

Makovach said:


> You should really read her new "I take it all back" article. Its ALL about how she takes back everything she said and that the aphis eu certifications really mean nothing except that a vet signed off on the food. Reality is, the vet probably didn't look at those ingredients before they signed that paper.
> 
> There can still be problems and be no recall.
> 
> Lets get back on topic. The op was asking about opinions and thats what was brought to the table is our opinions.
> 
> You really are starting to sound like a rep. for the company. People usually don't get that testy over opinions and such.


I read it. She is an idiot if she believed that EU Cert. meant food for the table. That is not what it means and never did.


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## xellil

NotAChampionFan said:


> You and a few others parade around like experts but all you do is parrot information from the internet. When an EU Cert plant makes food every ingredient must come from a supplier that is inspected. The food must be labelled if it contains GMO ingredients and the meat meals don't need to be sprayed with dye.
> 
> Is it perfect, NO, but it is a hell of a lot better than the alternative.


You are long on insults and short on facts. Of which you have none.

I think you work for that plant. Or you sell their dog food. Or you just like to fling around personal attacks. Or all three.


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## Caty M

NotAChampionFan said:


> You and a few others parade around like experts but all you do is parrot information from the internet. When an EU Cert plant makes food every ingredient must come from a supplier that is inspected. The food must be labelled if it contains GMO ingredients and the meat meals don't need to be sprayed with dye.
> 
> Is it perfect, NO, but it is a hell of a lot better than the alternative.


Why do you hate Champion? It is, also.

You'd get a lot more people listen to your point of view if you had any tact and social skills. You're rude, condescending, and just plain laughable. We are all entitled to our opinions, they are based on fact, so stop calling us all idiots and say your point of view like an adult... not a know-it-all.

Plus, if we are all wrong, why do you come back under a different alias every month, only to get banned again? Rather odd if you ask me.


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## xellil

I AM an expert. I am an expert on everything


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## Makovach

NotAChampionFan said:


> You and a few others parade around like experts but all you do is parrot information from the internet. When an EU Cert plant makes food every ingredient must come from a supplier that is inspected. The food must be labelled if it contains GMO ingredients and the meat meals don't need to be sprayed with dye.
> 
> Is it perfect, NO, but it is a hell of a lot better than the alternative.


I would like to point out that when you were talking about how great the EU is, you credited the "truth about dog food" site as well. Where do you get your sources from?


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## Makovach

If your really wish to go on with this, why not make your own thread and not take over what this one was really about.


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## meggels

Glad he is liking the food so far Brittany. I keep that in Abbie's rotation because it's affordable and Abbie always does amazing on it.

I trust earthborn, as a former employee and now, just as a consumer. Just because they are made by propac, who cares? They took a step in the right direction and created a much better food at a decent price. Like someone else said, I'd much rather feed earthborn over a diamond food. Right now the only foods I'm feeding Abbie are earthborn, Fromm and champion.


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## bridget246

NotAChampionFan said:


> You and a few others parade around like experts but all you do is parrot information from the internet. When an EU Cert plant makes food every ingredient must come from a supplier that is inspected. The food must be labelled if it contains GMO ingredients and the meat meals don't need to be sprayed with dye.
> 
> Is it perfect, NO, but it is a hell of a lot better than the alternative.


Depends on what your calling the alternative and nothing is prefect. But please get us some facts instead of going around talking about what nutritionist would say. If you know what it takes to get a Aphis EU Cert then send us a link. Currently we feel we are right because you aren't providing any proof. If you have something that goes against that then please share it. The insults is just making me think less of you. 



Jacksons Mom said:


> You wish that Makovach didn't know anyone that fed Earthborn? Why?
> 
> Just because your dog didn't do well on it, doesn't mean nobody else should feed it?
> 
> Jackson did not do well on Orijen - I still think it's a GREAT food and others do fantastic on it.
> 
> Anyways, I won't be able to judge anything probably until we finish the whole bag at least, so we'll see how it goes, but taste test passes!


Oh, I didn't mean it that way. I tried to give a short reply but my message wasn't clear. What I was trying to say is that some people find a brand of dog food that they like the most. Nothing is wrong with that unless you keep feeding it to a dog who is not doing so well. Now I know food trials are very expensive. But a lot of good companies are more than willing to send you free samples of up to 30 pounds of dog food. If your dog doesn't do well on it then it didn't cost you anything. 



Makovach said:


> My boxers didn't do well on it either. But it beats them feeding purina. I know a lot of dogs that do great on it tho.


I'm not sure if it would beat Purina on every dog. I guess it really depends on rather or not the dog is allergic to anything. This is why I would choose to fed the dog foods that have the fewest ingredients.


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## lovemydogsalways

Hershey123(notachampionfan),no one is going to listen to your bullshit when you are rude like that.


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## DaViking

xellil said:


> APHIS EU certification means nothing.


Sorry Xelli but I can't let that one stand. The EU cert. means a lot. It means among other things that I know the GM status and no rendered proteins not fit for human consumption. Simply knowing those two things means a lot to many. Now, you can argue that ppl lie, cheat, bribe and do all kinds of nasty things to screw you over. Sure, but in most cases that is not the fact. You should see the stack of papers needed to accompany any food entering European ports, it's insane.


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## xellil

DaViking said:


> Sorry Xelli but I can't let that one stand. The EU cert. meansa lot. It means among other things that I know the GM status and no rendered proteins not fit for human consumption. Simply knowing those two things means a lot to many. Now, you can argue that ppl lie, cheat, bribe and do all kinds of nasty things to screw you over. Sure, but in most cases that is not the fact. You should see the stack of papers needed to accompany any food entering European ports, it's insane.


Well, I do believe that Susan Thaxton wouldn't just say it's not true if it's not. I was almost believing in APHIS myself until her last article. Have you read her recent stuff? She wrote an article praising APHIS EU certs and then had to retract and delete it when she got more information.

I don't consider her site just "stuff off the internet." I think she does her best to get to the bottom of these things.


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## Jacksons Mom

He had a great poop this morning! hehe... I did a cold turkey switch, so was expecting maybe a soft poo, but nope. He had it for a late breakfast around 10:30 and dinner around 6 yesterday, and pooped this morning.


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## Jacksons Mom

DaViking said:


> Sorry Xelli but I can't let that one stand. The EU cert. means a lot. It means among other things that I know the GM status and no rendered proteins not fit for human consumption. Simply knowing those two things means a lot to many. Now, you can argue that ppl lie, cheat, bribe and do all kinds of nasty things to screw you over. Sure, but in most cases that is not the fact. You should see the stack of papers needed to accompany any food entering European ports, it's insane.


I kind of agree. And to be honest, even IF it doesn't really mean anything... it can't _hurt _to have any type of extra "security" if you will.


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## DaViking

xellil said:


> Well, I do believe that Susan Thaxton wouldn't just say it's not true if it's not. I was almost believing in APHIS myself until her last article. Have you read her recent stuff? She wrote an article praising APHIS EU certs and then had to retract and delete it when she got more information.
> 
> I don't consider her site just "stuff off the internet." I think she does her best to get to the bottom of these things.


Read her "I take it back" article again, she really doesn't say much at all, at least nothing that makes any difference to animal or human health. The only thing she is right about is that the USDA sure know how to produce a crappy form.

I commend her for all her work and effort for the good cause. People like here is important to have around to keep everyone honest. Doesn't mean I have to agree with her or place the same emphasis on various issues. My dogs don't care if there are animals dead by transportation in their formulas. Anything else would be wasteful. From the day I saw the real "free" Willy disorientated, malnourished and dying in a Norwegian fjord I never cared too much for extreme animal activists.

This is what she is reacting to. She need to read the full EU regulation text. Secondly, she reacts to the fact that you can for example include animals dying of stress into a by-product meal. If she need to say "what does that mean" she clearly haven't read all appropriate documents.



> has been prepared exclusively with the following animal *by-products*:
> 
> [-
> carcases and the *following* parts originating either from animals that have been slaughtered in a
> slaughterhouse and were considered *fit for slaughter for human consumption* following an ante-
> mortem inspection or bodies and the following parts of animals from game killed for human
> consumption in accordance with Union legislation:
> (i)
> carcases or bodies and parts of animals which are *rejected as unfit for human consumption* in
> accordance with Union legislation, but which *did not show any signs of disease communicable
> to humans or animals*;
> (ii)
> heads of poultry;
> (iii)
> hides and skins, including trimmings and splitting thereof, horns and feet, including the
> phalanges and the carpus and metacarpus bones, tarsus and metatarsus bones, of animals,
> other than ruminants;
> (iv)
> pig bristles;
> (v)
> feathers;]​


There should be a third Susan article titled "Stay tuned for more - disregard the two first" If she thinks Europe and an EU cert. is about fresh human grade pasture fed high end delux ingredients with Heidi singing in the background she is wrong. EU is about safety, trace-ability, science and not being wasteful. When that is being taken care of I think many pet food snobs would have a jaw dropping experience reading many EU dog food labels. Anyone care for a bit of Rudolph? :smile:


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## Makovach

Jacksons Mom said:


> He had a great poop this morning! hehe... I did a cold turkey switch, so was expecting maybe a soft poo, but nope. He had it for a late breakfast around 10:30 and dinner around 6 yesterday, and pooped this morning.


Sounds like you found yourself a kibble!!!! Whoo hoo for great poop!


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## meggels

Glad to hear it! Abbie's poops are AMAZING when she eats that food. By far the best she ever has. Probably will give her that kibble next. Right now she's eating Fromm's Gamebird Grain Free. But she looooooooooooves the Earthborn lol.


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## xellil

DaViking said:


> There should be a third Susan article titled "Stay tuned for more - disregard the two first" If she thinks Europe and an EU cert. is about fresh human grade pasture fed high end delux ingredients with Heidi singing in the background she is wrong. EU is about safety, trace-ability, science and not being wasteful. When that is being taken care of I think many pet food snobs would have a jaw dropping experience reading many EU dog food labels. Anyone care for a bit of Rudolph? :smile:


We'll just have to disagree. If feathers and pig bristles are on the list of acceptable ingredients, how much do you think will be in the dog food?

I'll go back and read some more tomorrow. My brain is not working right now.


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## riddick4811

I feed Earthborn as part of my rotation. Dogs are eating Meadows Feast right now and love it. I have 6 dogs on it and they are all doing great. They do a lot better on Earthborn than Orijen, Acana, Evo, etc. Might not have as much meat, but dogs are healthier and look better on it and I can afford it so I'll keep feeding it.


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## lovemydogsalways

I fed Patches a one 6 pound bag of the PN and she liked it and had small poops. I didn't continue to feed it because the ash is 12% and that made me nervous.


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## InkedMarie

lovemydogsalways said:


> I fed Patches a one 6 pound bag of the PN and she liked it and had small poops. I didn't continue to feed it because the ash is 12% and that made me nervous.


I know nothing about ash in dog food....is the 12% a high amount of ash? Why is that not good?


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## lovemydogsalways

InkedMarie said:


> I know nothing about ash in dog food....is the 12% a high amount of ash? Why is that not good?


I have read you don't really want to go over 8%. So yes 12% is high to me. This is what I have read on ash. If you get your dog's kidneys checked often and the range is normal then you may not have anything to worry about. 


> While ash is more of a concern for cats, the medical community believes that even healthy kidneys can be harmed by too much ash over a lifetime.
> 
> A low ash food is the only way a normal consumer would know if the protein is of high quality.





> Typically kibbles with more bone content have higher ash. Higher protein kibbles may also have the tendency for higher ash, but it depends somewhat on the type and quality of the meat.





> I prefer to feed foods that are under 8%, the lower the better. Although by-products can be high in some nutrients they are also typically higher in ash, the ash content depends on what by-products are used. Ash is composed of minerals but it also contains heavy metals and toxins which has been shown to be detrimental to health. My concerns are more about the effects of the toxins that are taken up than I am about kidney function in a normal dog. Many toxins are stored in various organs and a steady diet of certain by-products can't be good.


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## DaViking

InkedMarie said:


> I know nothing about ash in dog food....is the 12% a high amount of ash? Why is that not good?


Ash is used as a bucket term for all the minerals in a formula. Minerals is the residue that doesn't burn, so it's called ash. 5% to 7% is good. 8% to 9% is on the high side. Everything above that is very high and you should start to question the quality of meals and other animal ingredients used.

There isn't any definitive standard but it is widely accepted that the higher the level the more taxing to the body over time. 12% as mentioned is very high and I would never use that formula as maintenance or part of a rotation.


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## InkedMarie

DaViking said:


> Ash is used as a bucket term for all the minerals in a formula. Minerals is the residue that doesn't burn, so it's called ash. 5% to 7% is good. 8% to 9% is on the high side. Everything above that is very high and you should start to question the quality of meals and other animal ingredients used.
> 
> There isn't any definitive standard but it is widely accepted that the higher the level the more taxing to the body over time. 12% as mentioned is very high and I would never use that formula as maintenance or part of a rotation.


figures I'm looking at some of the GF Acana's but can't find the ash. i'll have to give them a call tomorrow


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## InkedMarie

Where'd you see the ash content listed on the Earthborn site?


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## DaViking

InkedMarie said:


> figures I'm looking at some of the GF Acana's but can't find the ash. i'll have to give them a call tomorrow


Many don't list the full ash content but instead some select minerals including calcium and phosphor. It is an indication that the ash level is on the high side if you see ca/ph levels above 1.5%


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## lovemydogsalways

InkedMarie said:


> Where'd you see the ash content listed on the Earthborn site?


I emailed them and asked the ash percentage for all of their formulas.


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## Jacksons Mom

Hmmm.... something to think about for sure. I have never really paid attention to ash content before.


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## Jacksons Mom

Gah, now I'm all unsure again. I've never really looked into the ash thing before, but was just reading a bit about it.

Are all of their formulas high in ash?

Jeez, I'm almost ready to just go to feeding something real simple again, like California Natural Lamb & Rice and topping it with canned, meat, etc. Lol. I like that they always list their full nutrient analysis and give you maximum levels of protein/fat, etc, including levels of ash, etc.

I think I've just been reading too much because I'm starting to almost trust, like, no one! LOL... I'm getting too picky.


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## bridget246

Jacksons Mom said:


> Gah, now I'm all unsure again. I've never really looked into the ash thing before, but was just reading a bit about it.
> 
> Are all of their formulas high in ash?
> 
> Jeez, I'm almost ready to just go to feeding something real simple again, like California Natural Lamb & Rice and topping it with canned, meat, etc. Lol. I like that they always list their full nutrient analysis and give you maximum levels of protein/fat, etc, including levels of ash, etc.
> 
> I think I've just been reading too much because I'm starting to almost trust, like, no one! LOL... I'm getting too picky.


I completely agree. This is why I prep my dogs food. It helps me sleep at night knowing that if anything goes wrong it is my fault and I have a good idea on how to fix it. I suppose for some people that might actually keep them up at night. 

I'm not sure if I would change now if he is doing fine on it. I hate wasting money so I'd finish the bag before making the switch.


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## Sapphire-Light

Jacksons Mom said:


> Gah, now I'm all unsure again. I've never really looked into the ash thing before, but was just reading a bit about it.
> 
> Are all of their formulas high in ash?
> 
> Jeez, I'm almost ready to just go to feeding something real simple again, like California Natural Lamb & Rice and topping it with canned, meat, etc. Lol. I like that they always list their full nutrient analysis and give you maximum levels of protein/fat, etc, including levels of ash, etc.
> 
> I think I've just been reading too much because I'm starting to almost trust, like, no one! LOL... I'm getting too picky.


If you are worried about the ash, maybe you can mix the EB wit another kibble that has less, or for example give the EB in the morning and the other kibble at night.


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## xellil

Jacksons Mom said:


> I think I've just been reading too much because I'm starting to almost trust, like, no one! LOL... I'm getting too picky.


Join the club. You can't trust the dog food companies to do what is best for your dog. i don't think you are getting too picky. I think you are getting smart.


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## lovemydogsalways

@Jacksonsmom ASH for the Great Plains is 9.8, Coastal Catch is 7.5 , Adult Vantage is 6.7, Ocean Fusion is 8.8, Small Breed is 8 and Puppy Vantage is 8.1. All as fed basis.


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## Jacksons Mom

Oh, okay, so it's not 12%? That's definitely better. Still a bit high at 9.8, I guess, but definitely sounds better than 12. lol


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## Jacksons Mom

I think I'm just going to suck it up and keep him on Acana. I think it's just me that gets bored, then I read things about Champion on the internet, and probably think too much into it.  I have no reason to switch other than cost and distance of getting the food, but he's done so well on duck & pear, and lamb & apple, and I probably shouldn't mess up a good thing. I'm too wish-washy and probably need to stop reading so much on the internet! LOL. 

I noticed the Chicken & Burbank potato is cheaper, and while it's not in the 'singles' line... it's still fairly limited ingredient, IMO, and he's never had an issue with chicken before so I'm not worried about a chicken allergy or anything. Probably give it a shot. We did two bags of duck & pear and two (or maybe three now?) bags of lamb & apple and had nothing but good results. I may just start ordering food online, it'll probably be cheaper in the long run. Naturalk9supplies has chicken formula for $13.99 for a 5lb bag.

I'll probably just return the big bag of Earthborn that I bought (I had a tiny 1lb bag of the great plains, and bought a 6lb bag of meadow feast since there was no samples). They accept returns on opened bags even with receipts.


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## meggels

How do we calculate ash? What do we add up? I'd like to go through and do it for Abbie's various kibbles.

Bummed you won't be giving the GPF a go Brittany, but ya gotta do what makes you comfortable


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## Caty M

I've been looking into Earthborn a bit and it does seem like a good food from a good-ish company. I just still feel it's very important to add in O3s and supplemental meat to ANY kibble. :smile:

Do they make cat food?


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## lovemydogsalways

Jacksons Mom said:


> Oh, okay, so it's not 12%? That's definitely better. Still a bit high at 9.8, I guess, but definitely sounds better than 12. lol


The Primitive Natural is 12%.


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## lovemydogsalways

Caty M said:


> I've been looking into Earthborn a bit and it does seem like a good food from a good-ish company. I just still feel it's very important to add in O3s and supplemental meat to ANY kibble. :smile:
> 
> Do they make cat food?


Yep. My cat loved their Wild Sea Catch grain free kibble, they also have one other grain free formula. I switched him to an all canne diet and he loves their Chicken formula.
http://www.earthbornholisticpetfood.com/us/cat_formulas/wild_sea_catch/ingredients.php
http://www.earthbornholisticpetfood.com/us/cat_formulas/primitive_feline/ingredients.php


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## Makovach

Caty M said:


> I've been looking into Earthborn a bit and it does seem like a good food from a good-ish company. I just still feel it's very important to add in O3s and supplemental meat to ANY kibble. :smile:
> 
> Do they make cat food?


Yes, I do believe they have two grain free kibbles, a grain inclusive kibble and four types of canned for cats.


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## Jacksons Mom

meggels said:


> How do we calculate ash? What do we add up? I'd like to go through and do it for Abbie's various kibbles.
> 
> Bummed you won't be giving the GPF a go Brittany, but ya gotta do what makes you comfortable


Well, I'm still gonna use up the GPF 1lb bag I have. The 6lb bag I may return tomorrow is the lamb one (Meadow Feast)... or maybe I'll just exchange it for a bigger bag of GPF and at least feed one bag and see the results. I'm not worried about one bag, or anything. But I don't think I'll be stopping the Acana is all. I just feel like he's always done so well on it and then what happens is I just get bored or wanna try other food, and then read too much into things -- I guess was my point, haha.


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## lovemydogsalways

Jacksons Mom said:


> Well, I'm still gonna use up the GPF 1lb bag I have. The 6lb bag I may return tomorrow is the lamb one (Meadow Feast)... or maybe I'll just exchange it for a bigger bag of GPF and at least feed one bag and see the results. I'm not worried about one bag, or anything. But I don't think I'll be stopping the Acana is all. I just feel like he's always done so well on it and then what happens is I just get bored or wanna try other food, and then read too much into things -- I guess was my point, haha.


I didn't get the ash % for the Meadow Feast because it was not out yet. You could email them to find out.


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## meggels

Jacksons Mom said:


> Well, I'm still gonna use up the GPF 1lb bag I have. The 6lb bag I may return tomorrow is the lamb one (Meadow Feast)... or maybe I'll just exchange it for a bigger bag of GPF and at least feed one bag and see the results. I'm not worried about one bag, or anything. But I don't think I'll be stopping the Acana is all. I just feel like he's always done so well on it and then what happens is I just get bored or wanna try other food, and then read too much into things -- I guess was my point, haha.


Gotcha  I switch Abbie every bag


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## NotAChampionFan

InkedMarie said:


> I know nothing about ash in dog food....is the 12% a high amount of ash? Why is that not good?


12% ash is high for some dogs. There is no benefit to high ash at all. For a dog that is genetically programmed to have healthy kidneys its whole life it is probably OK, but you don't know that ahead of time. So since there is no upside and all downside, ash should be kept down. Evo is the same by the way. If high ash can hurt a diseased kidney then it could just as easilty harm a healthy kidney over time.

I really don't understand why people feed much over 30% protein anyway. More protein equals more ash cause of the bone and phosphorous from muscle meat. The dogs in the pictures here look like average pets that don't need that much protein.

I use a 32% that is very low ash and would stay with similar types.


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## NotAChampionFan

Jacksons Mom said:


> Hmmm.... something to think about for sure. I have never really paid attention to ash content before.


You should especially for toy breeds!!!!!!!!

5-7% for the little guys


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## NotAChampionFan

Jacksons Mom said:


> Gah, now I'm all unsure again. I've never really looked into the ash thing before, but was just reading a bit about it.
> 
> Are all of their formulas high in ash?
> 
> Jeez, I'm almost ready to just go to feeding something real simple again, like California Natural Lamb & Rice and topping it with canned, meat, etc. Lol. I like that they always list their full nutrient analysis and give you maximum levels of protein/fat, etc, including levels of ash, etc.
> 
> I think I've just been reading too much because I'm starting to almost trust, like, no one! LOL... I'm getting too picky.


California Natural is very high ash 8.9% for a low protein food, 20%. I use a 32% with 6% ash.

CN is garbage.


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## PDXdogmom

NotAChampionFan said:


> California Natural is very high ash 8.9% for a low protein food, 20%. I use a 32% with 6% ash.
> 
> CN is garbage.


California Natural lamb formulas are higher in ash than their other formulas and that seems to be true within most brands. Lamb formulas simply have more ash.

From the ash standpoint, California Natural is very good in its chicken and rice formulas. The Adult has 6.23% ash while the Puppy has 5.99% ash. I have found the CN Puppy formulas to be very helpful for a variety of reasons.


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## Maxy24

I'm considering switching from of TOTW to Earthborn to get away from Diamond but want to make sure I'm not downgrading ingredient wise. I currently feed the High Prarie formula...32% protein, 18% fat. Tucker does fine on it. So I wanted to go to Great Plains Feast with 34% protein, 18% fat. Do you think this is a downgrade from the TOTW (just based on ingredients/analysis, not company). It seems like it might be more carb heavy, but there's really no way to tell how much Bison is actually in there I guess. Does anyone know the ash content of TOTW High Prarie?


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## meggels

Maxy24 said:


> I'm considering switching from of TOTW to Earthborn to get away from Diamond but want to make sure I'm not downgrading ingredient wise. I currently feed the High Prarie formula...32% protein, 18% fat. Tucker does fine on it. So I wanted to go to Great Plains Feast with 34% protein, 18% fat. Do you think this is a downgrade from the TOTW (just based on ingredients/analysis, not company). It seems like it might be more carb heavy, but there's really no way to tell how much Bison is actually in there I guess. Does anyone know the ash content of TOTW High Prarie?


Dunno what the ash content is but just wanted today, this is one food Abbie does PHENOMENAL on


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## PDXdogmom

Maxy24 said:


> I'm considering switching from of TOTW to Earthborn to get away from Diamond but want to make sure I'm not downgrading ingredient wise. I currently feed the High Prarie formula...32% protein, 18% fat. Tucker does fine on it. So I wanted to go to Great Plains Feast with 34% protein, 18% fat. Do you think this is a downgrade from the TOTW (just based on ingredients/analysis, not company). It seems like it might be more carb heavy, but* there's really no way to tell how much Bison is actually in there I guess.* Does anyone know the ash content of TOTW High Prarie?


I tend to think there is less meat protein (bison meal) than is ideal; because peas, pea protein and dried eggs are also among the first 5 ingredients listed.


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## Jacksons Mom

On Earthborn's site, the GPF is listed as 25% carbs.

I think I still would like to give a whole 6lb bag a shot on that formula (Great plains) - because that's the one Jackson LOVED and I only went thru the 1lb sample bag with him. Just to see how he does and be able to judge a little bit better.

I brought the bag of Meadow Feast over to my dads house and all 3 dogs have been sharing it and doing seemingly well - though I don't pay as close attention to his dogs, but I live there 3 nights a week while in school so Jackson has been eating it when we're over there and had good poops, etc. I think it's because the Meadow Feast is fairly similar to Acana's Lamb & Apple which he's been eating for a few months, so it wasn't a huge change.


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## lovemydogsalways

Maxy24 said:


> I'm considering switching from of TOTW to Earthborn to get away from Diamond but want to make sure I'm not downgrading ingredient wise. I currently feed the High Prarie formula...32% protein, 18% fat. Tucker does fine on it. So I wanted to go to Great Plains Feast with 34% protein, 18% fat. Do you think this is a downgrade from the TOTW (just based on ingredients/analysis, not company). It seems like it might be more carb heavy, but there's really no way to tell how much Bison is actually in there I guess. Does anyone know the ash content of TOTW High Prarie?


The ash percentage is 9.5%.



> Dear Meagan,
> 
> Thank you for your inquiry.
> 
> The ash content in the Taste of the Wild formulations on an as fed basis is listed below:
> 
> High Prairie 9.5%
> Pacific Stream 8.5%
> Wetlands 9.5%
> Sierra Mtn 7.2%
> 
> Sincerely,
> 
> Dawn
> Customer Service


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