# For All Large Dog Owners: Child Tipping! (Need Help)



## NewYorkDogue (Sep 27, 2011)

Mateo (9 month old Mastiff) has always showed a special fondness for children-- he gets all wiggly and tends to cover them with big, wet kisses.

However. This attraction to small people has developed into a problem: he tips them over. I believe this was, when he was smaller, sort of an accidental thing (still might be), as when he wriggles his head when approaching them, and all it takes is lifting his head under the child's chin and- wham. Kid down. 

Here's the thing. I have been having to keep an eye on him when we are in a large public off-leash park, because there are also little kids around. I don't always get there in time, or catch his attention in time to head it off, and a toddler hits the grass. Thankfully, almost all the parents there with small children also have dogs and are super understanding-- despite the fact that I'm apologizing like crazy...(yikes.)

This morning, however, there were tons of dogs in one particular area (because it's the weekend), and also some kids around because of the nearby ice-skating rink. I had taken my eyes off of my dog for a few minutes (I know- my bad!) and sure enough, there was a child, all padded up in a hockey uniform (thank goodness) flat on his back, crying. The culprit: my dog. :tsk: And the kid's father was livid, saying that my dog was dangerous, that he should be kept on a leash... even threatening to "take the (hockey) stick to him." 

Well, my reaction was not stellar-- I began yelling back (after that last comment!), and didn't even get to apologizing...

But this is a problem, and I need some specific advice to nip it in the bud. He's 102 pounds now, and not getting any smaller!

I am aware that maybe the actual tipping over of the child has become a "reward" in itself-- (trying to view it through his eyes.) This may make it even more of a difficult behavior to change...?

The good news is that there is absolutely no aggression involved. He does still try to kiss them when they fall. And I don't want to create a negative association with children, either. But I need to work with him on this issue.

Any and all training advice is welcome!


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## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

Rebel does that to kids too - not under their chin, but he will lean on them and knock them down.

Not so much a problem until I moved down here, but here I have four cousins age 1 to 7. not only the leaning, but with the baby when he reaches out to sniff or lick the baby often falls on his butt just from Rebel's big head coming at him.

I have taught him "back" and he understands it really well. The problem is I have to watch him - he never liked kids all that much, but when there is one in our living room his curiosity seems alot higher.

Maybe you SHOULD have a leash on to avoid problems until you can control him verbally and/or make sure you are watching him all the time. Frankly, if I were that dad I wouldn't be too happy about a strange dog knocking my kid over, no matter how nice the dog is. A big dog is scary.


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## BoxerParty (Nov 9, 2011)

Malcolm LOVES kids too, but his wiggle-butt excitement over them caused the same knocking-over problem. So, with the help of my cousin's super dog-loving 4-year-old human, I taught him to sit for pats from kids. I still allow the "boxer lean" with grown-ups.

I taught the sit by having Malcolm on his leash and Riley (human kid) approach him. I asked for a sit. If he wiggled, Riley stopped moving toward us. I would ask for the sit again, and Riley would approach until/unless he got up and wiggled. I didn't use any other reinforcements, since (as you said) the kid IS the reward. Malcolm learned pretty quickly that child = sit, and that he would ONLY get to kiss the child if he remained in a sit. It's definitely harder in an off-leash situation, but strongly establishing the kid = sit principle means that when we encounter kids in our off-leash park, Malcolm will approach them but won't bowl them over.


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## wolfsnaps88 (Jan 2, 2012)

Dozer is so gentle with kids and babies. A couple Christmases ago, Gary thought it would be fun to bring our mastiff to a party which was in a tiny house with lots of people. I found it to be chaotic. Then my sister in law put her infant son on the ground. My heart stopped as I envisioned Dozer stepping on him unintentionally. 

Instead, he got down on all fours, head down, and crawled to the baby and licked him. My heart melted. 

I think it best to teach Mateo a quick down position no matter where he is. That way, if he gets too close to a baby you can tell him down and he will lay down. Its the only thing i can think of myself. Or constant leashing (which I also do in any other situation Dozer and I are in because he is unpredictable and large).


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## brandypup (Jan 23, 2012)

Well IDK... if my kid got knocked down I would pick her back up and tell her to be careful. But then I am a dog mom and a kid mom and plan on getting an English Mastiff in a 2-5 yr period. We all went to go visit one. He was 220lbs and my daughter didn't even get int he door way before she was knocked down. The dog turned and his but swiped her and boom into the wall. She was laughing actually and ended up falling in love with the dog. He was a steller dog also, wonderful personality and just loved my daghter (6yrs old) SO I taughter her to watch his tail, head and but. She did fine the rest of the evening. 

Now if I had that dog I would have to watch out for the other kids and try to teach them as well. I guess that is my answer. that doesn't excuse the dad for being an idiot. 

My last dog bradny love love loved kids. She had a luck of a tall bully dog (no clue what she was really) so I had to keep a handle on her from jumping and kissing. One day walking on a side walk a strolle wne t by the other direction and brandy stuck her head right in there and got her a kiss on the fly. I was so embarresed. 

My beagle can knockpeople down becuase he is a love and my chihuahua gets the excited nibbles so I want the kids and help them only pet when sitting. 

It's not easy.


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

these are big dogs, your mastiff.....i think i'd be shouting a warning to any child.....that they are either a. about to go down or b. get outta the way or

c. enjoy the ride.

or shout to the mom that this might look like a big dog but actually is a puppy and is like a bull in a china shop and will stop when he's about two or three, maybe.

better than him rushing kids to eat them...not that that is such a bad idea J/K maybe. 

i really have nothing to offer but it was funny and reminded me of my days in georgia with the kids tipping cows....so maybe payback's a bitch, ya know?


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## Sprocket (Oct 4, 2011)

Maybe have him wear a vest that says "Caution, may tip over small humans while trying to kiss them"


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

BoxerParty said:


> Malcolm LOVES kids too, but his wiggle-butt excitement over them caused the same knocking-over problem. So, with the help of my cousin's super dog-loving 4-year-old human, I taught him to sit for pats from kids. I still allow the "boxer lean" with grown-ups.
> 
> I taught the sit by having Malcolm on his leash and Riley (human kid) approach him. I asked for a sit. If he wiggled, Riley stopped moving toward us. I would ask for the sit again, and Riley would approach until/unless he got up and wiggled. I didn't use any other reinforcements, since (as you said) the kid IS the reward. Malcolm learned pretty quickly that child = sit, and that he would ONLY get to kiss the child if he remained in a sit. It's definitely harder in an off-leash situation, but strongly establishing the kid = sit principle means that when we encounter kids in our off-leash park, Malcolm will approach them but won't bowl them over.


can you come over and teach this to my pug? all 22 lbs go into leaning, as you so gently call it.

i call it an overwhelming rush of neediness


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## twoisplenty (Nov 12, 2008)

I am surprised that a leash free dog park would even allow small children. Its asking for trouble IMO. Not only are they going to get knocked over by bigger dogs but it puts them at risk for being bitten. Any dog park I have gone to always has a sign on the front of it saying no children under the age of 8 allowed.

And for the guy yelling at you about his child I would of been like "what parent endangers their child by allowing them to roam a leash free dog park?"

Our leash free areas are always away from the childrens play areas and are seperately fenced. Are yours different?

Though I do agree that all dogs need to be taught to respect a persons place no matter what size the dog or person is. My guys are horrible for jumping!!!


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## NewYorkDogue (Sep 27, 2011)

twoisplenty said:


> I am surprised that a leash free dog park would even allow small children. Its asking for trouble IMO. Not only are they going to get knocked over by bigger dogs but it puts them at risk for being bitten. Any dog park I have gone to always has a sign on the front of it saying no children under the age of 8 allowed.
> 
> And for the guy yelling at you about his child I would of been like "what parent endangers their child by allowing them to roam a leash free dog park?"
> 
> ...


Well, this sort of a unique situation-- Central Park has off-leash hours for dogs every morning before 9 AM. Absolutely wonderful for dogs, because, well, the park is over 600 acres of beautiful landscape (including woods, lakes, etc.). However, there is (and always has been) some tension between the joggers/bicyclists/bird watchers... and the free-roaming dogs. Stuff always happens, as you can imagine. 

The weekends are the worst, because if the weather is nice, everybody and their brother is in the park. Since the dogs are not confined to a separate area, you just have to be more vigilant about distractions, and possible "triggers." 

So....... toddling children appears to be one of my dog's pleasure buttons. Can't help himself. And, yes, he has even been known to swipe a walk-by kiss to babies in strollers. hwell: Thing is, he never jumps up on full-size people (yea), it's just the small ones.

I like the idea of borrowing a kid for some one-on-one training. Actually, a friend's son (who is 8) will be coming to visit from Italy at the end of Feb. and he has offered him up for use in working with Mateo. I would like to work with him then. 

In the meantime, I'm thinking of using a separate/new command for him to slow him down when he sees a kid come into view. Or even "stop" (this would be during off-leash times, when I need an immediate response from him.)

Otherwise, vigilance is key, I suppose. It's not easy, that's for sure...


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## BoxerParty (Nov 9, 2011)

Do you know a child I can use?


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## stajbs (Jun 5, 2010)

You can borrow my grandson!! Lol..He is almost 2.5, he is met at the door when he comes by two excited siberians attempting to kiss him and mill all around him. He has learned to tell them "back", and he says "back CeCe, back BayBay, for Silva and Blaze. It usually takes one of us adults to tell them back to really get them off of him, but he just bulldozes his way in past them. Can't say I remember ever even having them knock him over. He was a preemie, and is still a bit on the short side, but he is a tank and a tough little kid. If he went down he would just laugh probably. In our case both kid and dogs have been taught how to interact, and are never left unattended or without adult eyes on them at all times. I would not take a little kid to a dog park, and I am far from stupid enough to trust my grandson unsupervised with our dogs. However at the same time you may have to keep a tighter eye on things at this dog park the way it sounds. Sorry I don't have helpful info to offer, but I would not trust that other people have taught their kids how to behave around dogs. The suggestions from people about a down, or a recall to you may pre-empt the problem. Good luck!


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## Liz (Sep 27, 2010)

My collies have to sit or down when in the prescence of a toddler - they each have terminal cases of wiggle butt.


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## Celt (Dec 27, 2010)

Had a friend "teach" his dog to "crawl" to meet kids. It was a behavior that Trigger would sometimes do on his own. My friend used a "training kid" to set the behavior. If Trigger went up to the boy, he wouldn't get any attention (more like very little, cause the boy couldn't completely ignore the wiggle butt) but if he crawled up for attention (and stayed down) then he got lots of lovin' and extra yummy treats. This did cause occassional problems on walks though. Trigger would sometimes feel that he needed a kiddie fix during "regular" walks and would "drop and crawl". Hysterically funny to see a dobe crawling while wiggling towards a little one.


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

NewYorkDogue said:


> Well, this sort of a unique situation-- Central Park has off-leash hours for dogs every morning before 9 AM. Absolutely wonderful for dogs, because, well, the park is over 600 acres of beautiful landscape (including woods, lakes, etc.). However, there is (and always has been) some tension between the joggers/bicyclists/bird watchers... and the free-roaming dogs. Stuff always happens, as you can imagine.
> 
> The weekends are the worst, because if the weather is nice, everybody and their brother is in the park. Since the dogs are not confined to a separate area, you just have to be more vigilant about distractions, and possible "triggers."
> 
> ...


central park is worth it.


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

BoxerParty said:


> Do you know a child I can use?


yep. several. 

LOL


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## NewYorkDogue (Sep 27, 2011)

magicre said:


> central park is worth it.


Without a doubt! Honestly, I'm not sure whether I would even have a Mastiff in this city without having access to Central Park. Wouldn't be fair to him.


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## Scarlett_O' (May 19, 2011)

magicre said:


> can you come over and teach this to my pug? all 22 lbs go into leaning, as you so gently call it.
> 
> i call it an overwhelming rush of neediness


1. Ive never met a Pug who did NOT wiggle at an exciting sight!!LOL :lol: 

2. I would LOVE to help you teach this to Bubba!:wink: 
I have all of mine this way, including Brody(well Dixi doesnt sit,I dont think its good for her back, but she is required to have all 4s on the ground!:wink


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## BoxerParty (Nov 9, 2011)

magicre said:


> yep. several.
> 
> LOL


Deal. I've been wanting to squish Bubba's silly face anyhow!


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

NewYorkDogue said:


> Without a doubt! Honestly, I'm not sure whether I would even have a Mastiff in this city without having access to Central Park. Wouldn't be fair to him.


i can see that....i live in an apartment and i won't get another corgi ever because i don't have the space to let her herd and run and they need that....

but i have very fond memories of central park....and i'm glad you've chosen to let me live vicariously through that favourite dog of mine, mateo...


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## doggiedad (Jan 23, 2011)

when there's children around keep him leashed. try
to find some children and teach him how to greet.
having children around dogs running freely is a bad
idea.


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

doggiedad said:


> when there's children around keep him leashed. try
> to find some children and teach him how to greet.
> having children around dogs running freely is a bad
> idea.


i don't necessarily agree with what you're saying.....just sayin'.

it's no secret i think children should have four legs, but just as my dog needs to run and play and yes, children do.....it's a parent responsibility to teach the child, just as i have to teach the dog...

and if i have a child who wants to pet mateo, i will lean the child against me and mateo can knock both of us down because now he's the size of a small pony and we chose to pet him. or make ourselves available....

i realise that mateo probably needs a little education. he is, after all, a puppy....but so are children and they also need to know about dogs...and not to approach or get out of the way just as they are taught that their front teeth will get knocked out if they stand directly behind a swing.


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## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

I kind of disagree - if you take your child to a public park it shouldn't be with the expectation that a dog will run over and knock your kid down. 

I have two cousins with young children - one's children are terrified of dogs, the others aren't. For the terrified ones, a dog of any size from a teacup poodle on up coming at them would probably mean a huge freakout and maybe a lawsuit, knowing the mother. 

The other kids are 1 and 5 and are around large not-very-well-behaved dogs - they wouldn't be afraid, but also couldn't protect themselves from getting knocked over. Rebel licked the one year old and knocked him over. Whoops.


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## NewYorkDogue (Sep 27, 2011)

Yes.. Mateo's education continues. This kid-tipping thing, though is the most problematic of all. The other stuff (occasional pulling; wanting to run after joggers) had decreased dramatically through consistency and patience. And consistency. And patience. And lots of praise and treats... 

His behavior shaping is working, and that's a good thing.

I agree about the idea of being watchful on both ends, though (parents/kids as well as dog/owner). Just 2 weeks ago, I was walking with a friend and his dog, making our way out of the park, when a man pushing a stroller stopped to ask about Mateo (what kind of dog is he.. usual stuff.) Mateo was nearby. Anyway, after chatting dog stuff, I remarked about how rosy his child's cheeks were-- like someone had taken a bright pink crayon and colored his cheeks. Now, said child was out of the stroller and standing all bundled up in a snowsuit all by himself in the middle of a pathway junction, about 6 feet away from his father. He was maybe 2 years old. There lots of dogs running around, people passing through, etc...a perfect target .

If I had been in my right mind, I would have kept an eagle eye on Mateo, knowing how he is around the little folks. But I was caught up in the conversation.... well. Mateo lopes in from just beyond view and tips the child right over. Of course, the boy cries. It happened so fast.

Well, the father was pretty cool about it all- no harm done (good thing for cushy snowsuits.) But, really-- a baby standing all alone in the middle of a busy pathway...? 

Anyway, I do want to do some individual training with him and some small kids. Meanwhile, another friend's reply about Mateo's behavior made me feel a bit better:

"And Mateo will get over wanting to bump the muppets, he's barely a teenager,
look at what human teens do!!!! (much worse)"

:redface:


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

unfortunately, the dog bears the brunt for everything. and it's put upon his head to NEVER EVER do anything wrong or it's 'off with his head' mentality.

i truly have no solution for this kind of thinking....because mine would include keeping children separated from all humanity until they are at least in their twenties


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## luvMyBRT (Mar 8, 2010)

I agree and disagree. LOL. 

I think it is a bit of both. Parents need to teach children how to properly act around dogs. How to treat them with respect and love...and they need to teach them how to properly greet a dog. My kids know to not approach a dog without asking the owner. They know how to let the dog smell them first, and they know to not pat the dog right on the top of the head. My kids are 4 and 6. 

Also, on the other hand, a large dog owner needs to teach your dog how to properly greet a small child or a small person for that matter. I feel it's an owners responsibility to have your dog make a good first impression. Be a good representation of the breed as well. 

Duncan has been taught to sit after he hand touches (this is how he is most comfortable to greet) a new person. He's not allowed to rub up on new people. So, I don't let a greeting go far enough to where Duncan has the chance to knock someone over. Because if it happens, it is his fault. No matter what the circumstance. 

And, personally, I think having small children at a dog park is a recipe for disaster. Crazy untrained children plus crazy untrained dogs is not a good mix (I know there are exceptions). Can you say dog bites?

I think working a bit with Mateo is a great idea and will help him greatly. He is lucky to have such a great owner! :smile:


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

luvMyBRT said:


> I agree and disagree. LOL.
> 
> I think it is a bit of both. Parents need to teach children how to properly act around dogs. How to treat them with respect and love...and they need to teach them how to properly greet a dog. My kids know to not approach a dog without asking the owner. They know how to let the dog smell them first, and they know to not pat the dog right on the top of the head. My kids are 4 and 6.
> 
> ...


both are true...i just don't think it's fair that kids get blamed for other people's mistakes any more than i think it's fair that dogs bear the brunt for anything they do.


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## Liz (Sep 27, 2010)

I have kids and my kids friends are over all the time. Most parents are nitwits and barely train their children in basic manners let alone dog ettiquette. It will always end up the dog's fault especially a large "bully" type dog. Sad but it is a fact. I err on the side of caution so sits and downs are required for everyone's safety and my peace of mind that my pups will never be accused of harming a child.


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

Liz said:


> I have kids and my kids friends are over all the time. Most parents are nitwits and barely train their children in basic manners let alone dog ettiquette. It will always end up the dog's fault especially a large "bully" type dog. Sad but it is a fact. I err on the side of caution so sits and downs are required for everyone's safety and my peace of mind that my pups will never be accused of harming a child.


what liz says about parents being nitwits is as true as dog owners being nitwits....and dogs will always get the blame.

and peace of mind is so important when we have dogs or kids or both. but liz also teaches her children manners....so it's a win win.


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## luvMyBRT (Mar 8, 2010)

magicre said:


> both are true...i just don't think it's fair that kids get blamed for other people's mistakes any more than i think it's fair that dogs bear the brunt for anything they do.


Well we are in agreement there!! The people to blame are the grown adults and parents who should/do know better. Parents- teach your kids proper dog etiquette. Dog owners - train your dog so he/she has manners as well. Both children and dogs will benefit! (And no, I'm NOT talking about Mateo's owner here...at all. You are working with Mateo to help solve this problem.) :wink:


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## Tobi (Mar 18, 2011)

Tobi likes to toddler tip... :lol: though he's made leaps and bounds at trying to lick their little faces, but he swings around a bit fast sometimes when they grab his tail or something and they end up on their butts.


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## xchairity_casex (Oct 8, 2011)

i was very fortunate to have Cesar grow up in a household with a then 2 year old and a i think like 5 month old? and the breeders where very smart about it too.
the dogs were never ever allowed to get into a childs face even if they were eating they could set the 2 year old off with a tray of food or a cookie and not a single dog would bother her (8 bull terriers and like 3 chihuahuas plus a litter of 8 bull terrier puppies) they could also safely lie the baby on a blanket on the floor and all the dogs knew that when that blanket was on the floor not a single one could step on it or sniff it.

while over there one day when cesar was just a pup i seen the little girl come walking into the living room where two BTs were wrestling that little girl came in and said somthing(not sure what it was but she sounded quite annoyed) and both dogs...DID it was amazing that little two year old just announced her displeasure at them wrestling and they stopped. they didnt keep trying to play with each other or take it into another room or have to be told twice she said somthing to them they quite and walked away like it was natural like "oh ok lets go do somthing else"

of coarse the breeders had 8 adult bts to influance Cesar but what they did was everytime a dog got into the kids faces to sniff or lick the breeders would walk up to the dog and tell them to "get back" and point away from the kid they said with puppies they would take there collars and pulling them back would say "get back" everytime the pups would get into the kids faces.


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