# breed specific diets?



## islander90 (Nov 30, 2010)

Hey all! I'm new here and trying to do as much research as I can, but haven't been able to find this answer really. Little background info:

I've got a purebred male Norwegian Elkhound and a female Australian Cattledog mix who are both almost 3 yrs old. For whatever reason it was a while back, I decided to change foods for them and started doing all the researching that I'm sure most of you have done; the research that makes you realize how much you wish you hadn't started researching because most all dog foods are "bad" for one reason or another. So in that research I came across a website by William Cusick; talking about breed specific diets and making your dogs food instead of buying kibble. His arguments seemed good, so I took the plunge and had him write out a recipe for each of my dogs. Turned out it wasn't as cheap or easy as he claimed it was as it cost the equivalent of like $300/month for the supplies and took me something like 4 hours to cook for them for the week. Definitely a pain in the butt that I just don't have the time or money for. So that only lasted that week. 

Since then I've tried a few foods and right now the Elkhound is eating Natural Balance Venison and Sweet Potato and the Cattledog is eating TOTW High Prairie. The Cattledog is gaining weight even though she only gets 1.5 cups/day plus a half can of green beans (wife's parents' suggestion), plus she's scratching a lot. The Elkhound is either maintaining or gaining weight (it's hard to tell because we found out the neighbors were feeding them big dental bones without us knowing  ) but he has to go into the vet to get his anal glands expressed basically monthly. 

I guess this was a long roundabout way of asking this, BUT... while I was on Cusick's website, he lives by the theory of breed specific feeding because a breed's digestive system has evolved through the centuries based on the foods it was naturally around. Definitely makes sense, but according to his site,



> For the Norwegian Elkhound I recommend foods that are high in animal fats. The best blends will contain beef and pork, with an equal amount of fish. Any carbohydrates in the food can come from potato or wheat, but you should avoid feeding any white rice or soy based food to this breed.


and



> Native food supplies for {an Australian Cattle Dog} would have been those found in the Australian outback (a high desert environment) and would have included ground vegetables, wheat, oats and meats from beef, rabbit, and kangaroo. A special note concerning the meats; all the meats from this area have a very low fat to muscle ratio. For the Australian Cattle dog I recommend low fat / high fiber commercial foods with a blend of beef, corn, and wheat. I also recommend that you avoid feeding an Australian Cattle dog any soy, white rice, beet pulp, poultry or fish.


So both of those pretty much say to stay away from poultry which seems to be in almost all the foods (and that the cattledog SHOULD eat wheats which are a grain and everyone says grain-free is good). Should I continue to try to follow those guidelines or is it just a bunch of paranoid ramblings? The breeder that I got the Elkhound from only fed Biljac (which apparently isn't a "good" food either?) to all of her dogs, so could that Chicken for a generation or two beforehand have made him better off with chicken based foods? 

I guess this has been mostly a rambling first post for me, but hopefully it sparks a good discussion or at least gets me a few good opinions. So what's everyone think? Thanks in advance!


----------



## RawFedDogs (Jun 16, 2008)

I've been around the dog nutrition world for almost 10 years and have read many of Bill Cusick's writings along the way. IMO they are pretty much garbage. It takes more than a couple of centuries for evolution to take place. Bill is the only one I know who preaches this theory of breed specific diets. 

He also wrote one time that dogs can't digest bones. I wonder where the bones I feed my dogs are going? They are eating them every day and not pooping them out. Must be digesting. 

Anyway, don't put a lot of faith in what Bill has to say. He's chasing windmills. I read one of his papers one time in which I counted 26 errors or half truths. I don't know where he comes up with that stuff.


----------



## rannmiller (Jun 27, 2008)

Breed specific food is an absolutely ridiculous idea. Dogs are made to digest meat, so suggesting that dogs avoid certain types of meat unless they have a known intolerance to it is a very silly idea. Suggesting that any dog would do better on a diet filled with more grains than meat is even more ridiculous. And the fact that he was already wrong about the diets for your dogs before would also suggest that he probably doesn't know what the heck he's talking about. 

This is like saying that I shouldn't eat any sort of ethnic foods (Chinese, Mexican, heck, even Cajun!) because my family has lived in the US for generations. Or that maybe I'm better predisposed to eating Polish/Scottish foods because that's what most of my ancestors ate. I'm a human, so I am designed to eat an omnivore diet. Dogs are carnivores so they are made to eat a carnivore diet. Simple as that. 

Maybe the foods you are feeding don't necessarily agree with your dogs and you need to try another one. Wellness Core Reduced Fat worked really well for my lab mix when I was still feeding kibble, it was one of the few foods I could give her that would keep her slim and keep the dandruff off her fur. But it took me trying her on 3 other foods before I figured that one out! 

There are a lot of good foods out there, so keep trying! And also, tell your neighbors to stop giving your dogs dental bones, that's so annoying!


----------



## 3Musketeers (Nov 4, 2010)

Breed specific diets are pretty much a gimmick and way to make you fall victim into marketing/advertising. Dogs have not existed long enough to have their digestive system evolve, in fact the modern dog has it identical to that of a wolf. Their mitochondrial DNA only differs by about 0.2% even.
Any differences nutrition-wise would be the amounts fed depending on the weight of the dog.

The Elkhound is needing to have his anal glands expressed because Natural Balance is a food very high in carbs and low on meat content.

These are the ingredients:
Sweet Potatoes, Venison, Potato Protein, Canola Oil, Dicalcium Phosphate, Potato Fiber, Flaxseed, Natural Flavor, Calcium Carbonate, Sodium Chloride, Choline Chloride, Taurine, Natural Mixed Tocopherols, Vitamin E Supplement, Iron Proteinate, Zinc Proteinate, Copper Proteinate, Ferrous Sulfate, Zinc Sulfate, Copper Sulfate, Potassium Iodide, Thiamine Mononitrate (Vitamin B-1), Manganese Proteinate, Manganous Oxide, Ascorbic Acid, Vitamin A Supplement, Biotin, Niacin, Calcium Pantothenate, Manganese Sulfate, Sodium Selenite, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride (Vitamin B-6), Vitamin B-12 Supplement, Riboflavin (Vitamin B-2), Vitamin D-3 Supplement, Folic Acid.

Sweet Potatoes and Potato Protein make up much of that food. Not good.

Dogs are carnivores, so the first thing you should look for when buying kibble is to make sure that it has a decent amount of meat/meat meals. Wheat can cause allergic reactions so I would advise against feeding something because it has wheat.
Grains are also linked with allergies which is why they get a bad rep, but a "grain-free" with low meat content is just as bad if not worse.

Also, 1/2 a can of green beans is almost 1/4 of the cattledogs daily meal! The kibble already has added carbs and veggies, so she really doesn't need it. As a treat it's fine, but 25% of the diet definitely seems like a bit much.
Some dogs MAY have an allergy to cooked chicken, but unless that is the case, there is nothing wrong with chicken-based kibble.

If the dog is gaining weight there is one simple solution: Feed Less.

There are a lot of good kibble out there, totw high prairie is pretty good itself.
Just a few others:
Orijen/Acana
Nature's Variety
Wellness Core
Evo/Innova
Solid Gold
Blue Buffalo Wilderness

All in all, it really is just a bunch of paranoid ramblings. :biggrin:

Wall of text is over, I got a little too caught up in this, heheh.


----------



## MollyWoppy (Mar 19, 2010)

3Musketeers said:


> If the dog is gaining weight there is one simple solution: Feed Less.


I wanted to add one thing to this, Feed Less, Exercise More. Especially the ACD, mine (a cross) tends to pork up if she's not exercised ALOT.

And, here's my 2 cents worth on the breed specific diet. ACD's were only created in the mid 1800's by the settlers in Aussie. They were a mix of breeds - collies, dingoes, kelpies, dalmations and probably others, especially bred to bring out the traits that the farmers wanted to herd the wild cattle in the outback. So, even if you took what this chap said to be fact, then you could add in the food that these other breeds would have supposedly eaten as well. 
For the ACD, I'm pretty positive farmers would have fed chicken. Also, if you use his theory about feeding the natural food available for that breed, then you could add in stuff like cockatoo's, rodents, croc's, snakes, koala's, mutton, wombats, in fact they would have had a pretty varied opportunist diet.

For your neighbours, I think it is nice that they obviously like your dogs so much. Do you think you could buy them some more natural, less fattening treats to give your pups without offending them?


----------



## Caty M (Aug 13, 2010)

I think they are one of the biggest gimmicks out there.. A couple of thousand years is not enough to change the dietary needs of an animal. Though breeds might look completely different, their dental structure and internal digestive system remains the same as that of a wolf.

If you look at a dog's teeth, they are sharp and designed for ripping and tearing meat... not for grinding grains and vegetables, for which they would need to be flat, like our back molars, or that of a horse or cow. Dogs generally therefore can't break down the cellulose walls that surround all plant cells.. and so do not gain much (or any) nutritional value from them.

So, all dogs regardless of breed, thrive best on a diet of meat, bone and organ. It's all my dog eats. No carbs, no vegetables. If you are willing, in my opinion raw is the best way to go since you are having issues with kibble.. and it's cheaper. Doesn't take any time at all really since you aren't cooking it!

If you would rather stay on a commercial food, I like Orijen and Acana the most. I have heard Taste of the Wild is good also. The Natural Balance kibble has too little meat, in my opinion.


----------



## cast71 (Sep 16, 2010)

WOW excellent advice!:wink: 

I also think your overfeeding especially the cattledog. You want to feed the smallest amount enough to maintain the prefect body weight. Do small adjustmensts until you found the right balance. You want to be able to easily feel the ribs and also be able to see the waist easily when viewed from top. Also keep on eye on there stools. If there soft or huge, that's a good sign your overfeeding. 

I also think natural balance has alot of carbohydrates. The only meat is has is venison and there are no meat meals in it. After the cooking proccess, there probablly isn't much venison left. It looks like all potatoes I would switch both dogs to TOTW. Why not use all TOTW formulas in a rotation diet. You can even add Acana formulas in the rotation:wink: It has about the same protein and carb levels as TOTW, but uses better quality ingredients. If you use a rotation, you will get more protein varieties and also avoid having your dogs becoming allergic to ingredients.


----------



## CorgiPaws (Mar 31, 2009)

Breed specific diets are quite silly, in my opinion. There are kind of a few exceptions involving Dalmations and BRTs and maybe other breeds I'm not aware of, and Sara can shed some light on that.... but other than that, absolutely not. 
Dogs are dogs are dogs are carnivores are carnivores are carnivores. Simple as that.


----------



## luvMyBRT (Mar 8, 2010)

I agree with the others. Breed specific kibbles/diets/foods are nothing but a gimmic....something to try to entice the public. Like Lindsey said dogs are carnivores are carnivores, etc. 

Some exceptions would be dogs with a certain "heath" risk, aliment or condition. Dalmatians need to be feed a diet low in purines as do other dogs (like my BRT) who are affected with Canine Hyperuricosuria. Dogs with this condition are prone to forming urate bladder stones and diet plays a *huge* role.


----------



## CorgiPaws (Mar 31, 2009)

saraj2878 said:


> Some exceptions would be dogs with a certain "heath" risk, aliment or condition. Dalmatians need to be feed a diet low in purines as do other dogs (like my BRT) who are affected with Canine Hyperuricosuria. Dogs with this condition are prone to forming urate bladder stones and diet plays a *huge* role.


Is it safe to say that no "commercial" diet actually effectively treats this predisposition, and that it's best to, even then, make a home prepared diet catering to these specific needs? I'm pretty uneducated in Canine Hyperuricosuria so I figured I'd ask. I like knowing things. :biggrin:


----------



## luvMyBRT (Mar 8, 2010)

CorgiPaws said:


> Is it safe to say that no "commercial" diet actually effectively treats this predisposition, and that it's best to, even then, make a home prepared diet catering to these specific needs? I'm pretty uneducated in Canine Hyperuricosuria so I figured I'd ask. I like knowing things. :biggrin:


I wouldn't say that any diet really "treats" the condition, rather a proper diet helps to keep it under control. 

There are a few kibbles made by Flint River Ranch that are low purine and recommended. I have heard from several people that these kibbles along with added water to the diet work well. I am sure there are other kibble out there that would fit the bill....but you would need to read *every* single ingredient to see how high the purine content is.

You can also prepare a homecooked or barf diet that is low in purines. 

A big big thing that helps with keeping urate stones under control is adding water to the dogs diet. Keep the dog hydrated, the bladder flushed and the urine dilute. I make sure that Duncan pees every 2-3 hours. You also need to routinely check the urine pH in the beginning while getting the diet under control (this is the stage I am on).

It really just takes time to see what diet works best for your individual dog, a lot of monitoring, testing urine pH and urinalysis. 
:biggrin:


----------



## bumblegoat (May 12, 2010)

As everyone has already pointed out, breed specific diets are stupid. Even if there was some reason to feed a breed specific diet, then the one that guy suggested for your elkhound is quite weird. The elkhound is actually a moosehound, and they are still pretty much only used for hunting here in Scandinavia. If there is any diet that would be especially good for an elkhound, it would be moose meat.


----------



## Caty M (Aug 13, 2010)

According to Dr W Cusick's website, regarding Sheltie specific diets,

"Breeders have found that calcium from animal bone sources can cause kidney stones in this breed."

Really? A carnivore not being able to eat bones? Also the dog breeds used to create the shetland sheepdog, border collies and rough collies, have conflicting advice on what to feed.. so.. it makes absolutely no sense. A collie shouldn't have beef, but a sheltie who is obviously quite closely related to it, should? Preposterous! :biggrin:


----------



## SamWu1 (Oct 15, 2010)

Cusick is a wack job with ludicrous theories dooping poor, ill informed consumers. If you're concerned about the health of your pet, feed raw.

Simple, inexpensive and absolutely beyond a shadow of a doubt the most nutritionally superior diet for a dog. A bit off topic but Bluey the ACD from Australia lived to 29 years sustaining on kangaroo and emu meat.

I believe that was in the 1920's where working dogs actually worked and didn't have the luxury of modern veterinary care. They relied on diet for good health.


----------



## islander90 (Nov 30, 2010)

well I guess I'm just a lemming that believed Cusick  Thanks for all the great opinions everyone! The unanimous opinion appears to be to completely avoid his website haha. I'll take a look this weekend and figure out what food to buy next and I'll take everyone's advice here into consideration. Thanks again! I knew it was a good idea to stop researching in circles and to just ask!


----------

