# Nature's Logic or Orijen



## Sheltielover25

Hello!

I am curious to get people's opinion on the two foods listed in the title. I was really happy with NL but then bought a bag of Orijen and I'm really impressed with it. Anyone have experience with both, or one or the other? I guess I could do one bag of NL and one bag of Orijen. I can only get NL in the chicken form so that is a bit of a downer. I feel like Orijen had a lot more variety of meats in it. What's everyone's opinion?


----------



## Unosmom

I would say orijen is better quality since they use fresh meats not just meals like NL, I also like the fact that their meats are free range/grass fed/cage-free/wild caught, cant go wrong there.


----------



## Sheltielover25

Unosmom said:


> I would say orijen is better quality since they use fresh meats not just meals like NL, I also like the fact that their meats are free range/grass fed/cage-free/wild caught, cant go wrong there.


Thanks for the reply! I'm thinking the same thing. I am feeding a cat who eats kibble only (not by my choosing) and then I'm training my dogs and using kibble for that part. I'm thinking of just cutting out the NL and using this since the variety is so much better. I don't have access to Acana or I'd try that, too.


----------



## kaliberknl

My dogs switched about 6 weeks ago to Orijen. They love it and are doing well. More recently I added Acana Pacifica which they also love and do well on. You should be able to order online?


----------



## DaViking

I don't think it is possible to say which formula is best on paper, only real life testing will show which is the best one for a particular dog. They both certainly have a lot of great ingredients.
However, both of them are really high (38%+) in protein, this is dry matter protein, not whole wet raw chicken. All this protein in the kibble comes with increased levels of nitrogen (protein waste), 16% of the protein as an average (could be higher, could be lower, it's one of the things that determines quality ingredients). This means that high levels of nitrogen is delivered to the kidneys every day. This is more taxing overall and the body will start a flushing process and dilute the urine to get rid of the increased amount of nitrogen. Secondly, excess protein creates heat and increases the body temperature, not sure if that is ideal as a constant state. So, what does these two points mean? More nitrogen to the kidneys and more heat from excess protein. No one have any good answers or studies on high (32+) protein level kibble formulas for dogs with moderate to normal activity levels yet so no one can with certainty say it's bad. But some facts are known, I mentioned two of them, another is usually higher ash levels. Most animal nutritionists have questions regarding these ultra high protein formulas, even the ones who work for the makers of these ultra high protein formulas. It's mostly an answer to serve the demand for "super premium" products. I have no doubt that both Orijen, Natures Logic and similar formulas can produce great results but the question is, is it more as a result of composition and ingredient selection and not necessarily ultra high levels of protein?


----------



## doggiedad

use Natures Logic and Orijen. i switch my dogs kibble a lot. i'll have a 40lb bag of one
brand, 10lb bag of another brand and several sample size bags (5lbs and under) of
other brands. i always several brands of can food on hand.


----------



## DDBsR4Me

DaViking said:


> I don't think it is possible to say which formula is best on paper, only real life testing will show which is the best one for a particular dog. They both certainly have a lot of great ingredients.
> However, both of them are really high (38%+) in protein, this is dry matter protein, not whole wet raw chicken. All this protein in the kibble comes with increased levels of nitrogen (protein waste), 16% of the protein as an average (could be higher, could be lower, it's one of the things that determines quality ingredients). This means that high levels of nitrogen is delivered to the kidneys every day. This is more taxing overall and the body will start a flushing process and dilute the urine to get rid of the increased amount of nitrogen. Secondly, excess protein creates heat and increases the body temperature, not sure if that is ideal as a constant state. So, what does these two points mean? More nitrogen to the kidneys and more heat from excess protein. No one have any good answers or studies on high (32+) protein level kibble formulas for dogs with moderate to normal activity levels yet so no one can with certainty say it's bad. But some facts are known, I mentioned two of them, another is usually higher ash levels. Most animal nutritionists have questions regarding these ultra high protein formulas, even the ones who work for the makers of these ultra high protein formulas. It's mostly an answer to serve the demand for "super premium" products. I have no doubt that both Orijen, Natures Logic and similar formulas can produce great results but the question is, is it more as a result of composition and ingredient selection and not necessarily ultra high levels of protein?



Ok, sorry to hijack the thread....but I just bought EVO Red Meat and it has 42% protein...what is this gonna do to my dog?


----------



## Sheltielover25

I read into the nitrogen thing and it does bring up a good point. It still has to be better in the long run than feeding a food with inferior ingredients. I feel really good knowing the ingredients in Champion Foods are sourced locally and free-range. My conclusion is all kibble is going to cause some damaging effect because it's just not what nature intended and no matter how good the ingredients get, that will never change. I guess I feel like I'm picking the lesser of the two evils: kibble, made with good quality ingredients, but still not really how a carnivore should eat so it will tax some organ or another due to this vs kibble, made with inferior ingredients therefor less protein for the most part, that will in the end do the same as above and IMO faster.


----------



## PDXdogmom

We need to make a clear distinction. The "fresh" meat (actually a slurry) is regional and free-range, but that makes up an extremely low percentage of the total product. Machines making the kibble can't handle fresh meat at more than something like the 3% range. The meat "meals" which make up most of the protein are the typical rendered meals and come from a company based in Kentucky I believe.


----------



## Sheltielover25

PDXdogmom said:


> We need to make a clear distinction. The "fresh" meat (actually a slurry) is regional and free-range, but that makes up an extremely low percentage of the total product. Machines making the kibble can't handle fresh meat at more than something like the 3% range. The meat "meals" which make up most of the protein are the typical rendered meals and come from a company based in Kentucky I believe.


Well ocnsidering deboned wild bore, deboned lamn, beef liver, and deboned pork, deboned bison and deboned fish -- are those what they're counting fresh meat? There's meals in there -- lamb, herring, and salmon -- but there much further down on the list and there's only three vs six of the "fresh" meat, I believe. So I'd say Orijen has a lot more "fresh" meat than most. (I'd assume Acana, too) I'm impressed they know their product from start to finish also... and know all the ingredients and exactly where they come from. With all that, is it what a dog/cat should be eating? Nope. But sometimes we have to, like I said, pick the lesser of the two evils.


----------



## Caty M

Both are good (at least on paper).. I've never seen Nature's Logic around here. Champion has a good reputation though. I thought you fed raw, though?


----------



## Sheltielover25

Caty M said:


> Both are good (at least on paper).. I've never seen Nature's Logic around here. Champion has a good reputation though. I thought you fed raw, though?


I'm working on training these guys to be quiet in our new apartment so we're feeding Orijen as a treat. I know, I could make dehydrated treats -- and usually do -- but everything is packed in storage for the most part and it's only temporary. They go crazy over it and hush right away if I have them on hand... lol.

The cat, however, eats kibble full-time so I keep up on it quite a bit.


----------



## PDXdogmom

If you are just handing out kibble as treats, either one would be just fine. You could alternate between the two every other bag. As you note, Orijen lists six meats that are not meals, but only a small percentage of the overall product can come from meats that aren't meals. If only about 3% of the final dry kibble represents fresh meat, you can divide up that % among six different meats or just one meat like chicken. But it will still only represent 3% overall. Orijen has a lot going for it, but high percentages of fresh meat just isn't possible.

The following is an explanation from the Timberwolf site:

The most you can use in a formula is limited to about 30%, although manufacturers can use as little as 3%. What starts out as chicken with 78% moisture is now perhaps 90% moisture cooked down to 10%. That 30% you started out with is now about 3.3% or less dry matter. To get the protein up, you must now add corn gluten meal or another protein source. Corn gluten meal is a good protein source; it’s high in sulfur-containing amino acids. But a lot of people (myself included) prefer an animal-based protein, which means you must add animal meals, which means it is not 100% human grade.


----------



## kaliberknl

Aren't meat meals used in human products? I thought they were but avoid processed food so really don't know


----------



## BeagleCountry

kaliberknl said:


> Aren't meat meals used in human products? I thought they were but avoid processed food so really don't know


Source: The Dog Food Project - Meat vs. Meal

"There is no such thing as "human grade meat meal", since meat meal is never produced for human consumption and the facilities producing it are not licensed or certified to manufacture human-edible products that meet FDA standards. If you are looking for the closest comparable thing, it would be something like meats that are freeze-dried after cooking, such as for backpacking and emergency food rations. These are made by manufacturers whose processing facilities fall under the regulatory requirements of the human food industry though, not the pet food industry!

However, this doesn't mean that all meat meal is of poor quality and should be avoided. Just like with any other dog food ingredient, there are many different levels of quality, and by law pet food manufacturers are not permitted to make any statements on the product packaging or in the ingredient list in regards to the quality of what is used."


----------



## DaViking

DDBsR4Me said:


> Ok, sorry to hijack the thread....but I just bought EVO Red Meat and it has 42% protein...what is this gonna do to my dog?


Hard to say but unless he/she is very active you *might* see higher water intake, flushing of the kidneys with more urination and somewhat raised body temperature. Since the dog tends to drink more there will probably be secondary effects too like more frequent and more watery poop, excessive water intake leads to digestive flushing and potentially poorer uptake of nutrients. If you are around the dog all day long and all peeing and pooping is done on walks or when you are around it should be easy to pick up on. If he/she runs free in the yard or similar it's more difficult to see. I talked to one of the animal nutritionists at a large Canadian manufacturer and she told me more and more reports about excessive peeing is coming in from people who feed high protein formulas. No one can say right now the exact effects since there are so little research on this. Some dogs seems unaffected others show a noticeable difference when switching from one type to another. Grain inclusive formulas up to 32% protein are well documented, are backed by science and years of research by independent and commercial organisations alike. Personally we have gone back to a classic type 26/16 chicken and fish meal formula with 33% carbohydrates from two sources, rice and whole ground non gmo corn. 67% animal, mineral and functional ingredients. Would I like to cut back on the carbs even a little more? Sure but that in a classic type formula is hard to come by. 30% to 35% in a grain inclusive product is good imo. The 33% rice and corn carbs are easy to burn off in our active JRT x, legumes or other grains might be better for other dogs.


----------



## DDBsR4Me

DaViking said:


> Hard to say but unless he/she is very active you *might* see higher water intake, flushing of the kidneys with more urination and somewhat raised body temperature. Since the dog tends to drink more there will probably be secondary effects too like more frequent and more watery poop, excessive water intake leads to digestive flushing and potentially poorer uptake of nutrients. If you are around the dog all day long and all peeing and pooping is done on walks or when you are around it should be easy to pick up on. If he/she runs free in the yard or similar it's more difficult to see. I talked to one of the animal nutritionists at a large Canadian manufacturer and she told me more and more reports about excessive peeing is coming in from people who feed high protein formulas. No one can say right now the exact effects since there are so little research on this. Some dogs seems unaffected others show a noticeable difference when switching from one type to another. Grain inclusive formulas up to 32% protein are well documented, are backed by science and years of research by independent and commercial organisations alike. Personally we have gone back to a classic type 26/16 chicken and fish meal formula with 33% carbohydrates from two sources, rice and whole ground non gmo corn. 67% animal, mineral and functional ingredients. Would I like to cut back on the carbs even a little more? Sure but that in a classic type formula is hard to come by. 30% to 35% in a grain inclusive product is good imo. The 33% rice and corn carbs are easy to burn off in our active JRT x, legumes or other grains might be better for other dogs.


He's not very active at all - hes a DDB. 

I do mix water in with his food, he likes it that way. 

I'll keep an eye on him, but may switch back to the Acana once this bag is gone.


----------

