# Need a more alkaline pH



## Rottnk9s (Jun 28, 2010)

My rottweiler Kamo is 3.5 years of age. He has been on a raw diet his whole life. He developed a soft tissue sarcoma in his neck and has completed a very riggerous radiation and chemo protocol. He now is forming Cystine crystals in his urine ... these are not the more common crystals. His urine pH is 5 and we need to make it slighly higher ... around 7. I can add potassium citrate to his diet but would prefer to do it with his food if possible. Any sugestions on foods or supplements that will alter his urine pH. 

Thanks in advance!! :smile:


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## eternalstudent (Jul 22, 2010)

Sorry to here about the problem with cystine stones.
This is probably not what you want to here but in humans the only successful addition to the diet that reduces cystine stones has been beer!!! This is simply a case of diluting the concentration and stopping the formation of new stones. 
Treatment has always been either bicarbonate of soda or potassium citrate. 
They also say to cut out meat from the diet, but I understand that, this is never going to happen with a dog.


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## Rottnk9s (Jun 28, 2010)

I can add potassium citrate and I have ordered some but I hoped that there would be some type of foods that help instead. Thanks for the info!! we are hoping that he will slowly stop producing these crystals (no stones at this point) once his liver is completely healed from the chemo

They also wanted me to put him on a veggie diet for the same reason but I can tell you right now he won't eat it!! I also don't really want to feed him kibble so will do anything else to get him better


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

what about adding some apple cider vinegar?


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## BrownStandardPoodle (Aug 22, 2010)

Gee, that's too bad!

Hope someone can help you.

Carol


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## eternalstudent (Jul 22, 2010)

I did some work on cystinuria (the human name for the illness) last year at uni I will look back and see what else they were suggesting as ways to help. From what I remember I don't think it would make a blind bit of difference where the protein comes from. It just needs to be reduced to a bear minimum. The crystals are stones just little ones that are small enough to pass through the urinary tract. 

Kibble I think would be worse as I believe they consume more water out feeding raw and drinking rather than kibble. 

One thing you could try is to feed him more of a soup so he drinks more fluids than normal. This obviously will make him pee more often but will also help to dissolve the crystals.

I shall let you know what I find out as soon as I can.


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## eternalstudent (Jul 22, 2010)

magicre said:


> what about adding some apple cider vinegar?



Unfortunately this is going the wrong way, it needs to become more basic/alkali not acidic


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

eternalstudent said:


> Unfortunately this is going the wrong way, it needs to become more basic/alkali not acidic


d'oh....time to stop posting...


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## eternalstudent (Jul 22, 2010)

magicre said:


> d'oh....time to stop posting...


I know the feeling:smile:


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## Rottnk9s (Jun 28, 2010)

eternalstudent said:


> I did some work on cystinuria (the human name for the illness) last year at uni I will look back and see what else they were suggesting as ways to help. From what I remember I don't think it would make a blind bit of difference where the protein comes from. It just needs to be reduced to a bear minimum. The crystals are stones just little ones that are small enough to pass through the urinary tract.
> 
> Kibble I think would be worse as I believe they consume more water out feeding raw and drinking rather than kibble.
> 
> ...


Thank you so much!!! I will ba anxiously awaiting the news :smile: I will add some more water into his food until I can think of other types of fluids to add!!


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## sassymaxmom (Dec 7, 2008)

ACV would seem more natural than the other stuff. Wonder how much it actually changes the urine?

Would going to a BARF type diet alkalize the urine? Would looking into feeding meats lower in cystine help at all? The nutrient search on ND will pull them up for you. Maybe choosing meat with 150 mg/serving would be better than the meats that are 300 mg/serving. I haven't a clue as to what bone has in it though.
Find foods by nutrient - NutritionData.com


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## eternalstudent (Jul 22, 2010)

Ok I have looked back at the therapies that do not involve drugs for the treatment of high cystine levels for humans.

This is a fairly long post so if you have any questions just ask back ☺.

The most important thing is the level of water intake, basically the higher the better, and the most important time to take the extra intake is at night as this is when the urine will become the most concentrated. It might mean you need to take him out over the night but that’s a small thing.

If you have not already done so get some pH monitoring sticks and if you can check the pH your dogs urine, this will allow you to monitor how effective any treatment is having.

The potassium citrate is the best option as a natural supplement (essentially it turns to lemon juice in the stomach). If symptoms worsen then there are other drugs that can be used but I would definitely check with a vet as to weather they can be used in dogs. If you want to know them I will send them to you as I don’t want someone coming across them and thinking they should try them on there dogs without proper care!

As for diet the most important thing (an I am sure you are not using them) is DO NOT use the silly little rocks in the water bowls to stop the damage to grass. They contain the amino acid you need to remove!!!!

The compound you need to remove is methionine as this is used to make cystine in the body, and is listed in the nutrient database. (Again I am making the assumption that the systems for making the amino acids in dogs is similar to that in humans). If you can reduce the protein intake to the bare minimum you will reduce the pH. Going to a BARF diet I don’t think will have an effect, but increasing the bone content and so calcium carbonate (also alkali) would not harm and may be beneficial, and may make him feel he is having a full meal. I would ask RFD or Danemama about the lowest levels you can feed and whether you can increase the fat content to make up the energy loss they can suffer from if the protein content is to low.

To stop the formation of stones, keep him active. This massages the kidneys and keeps everything moving, I don’t know how active he is at the moment if he is not then massaging the kidney area of the back is a good alternative.

Depending on how good your vet is they maybe able to tell you how concentrated the cystine is in the urine. If he can, you can let me know and I can tell you how much extra water he needs to drink. But essentially if this is a temporary situation then just feed enough water until the situation is sorted. 

Hope this is of some help and I hope your rotti gets better soon!.

I will ask around and if anything else comes up I will message you back.


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## Rottnk9s (Jun 28, 2010)

Thank you so much!! His oncologist is also board certified in nutrition so she is going to help formulate a raw diet for him that will help as well.

You have been very helpful ... thank you


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## Georgeyporge (Dec 30, 2011)

eternalstudent said:


> Unfortunately this is going the wrong way, it needs to become more basic/alkali not acidic


I know this is an old post, came across it when reading up on info trying to help my cystinuric dog, just wanted to say apple cider vinegar is alkalising .... Detailed Listing of Acid / Alkaline Forming Foods and not acidic!


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