# *sigh*



## xxshaelxx

I just don't think Kuso is the right dog for our family. He's snapped at Adam and I several times, like, aggressively, he's food aggressive (with both the other dogs AND myself), he has snapped at the other two dogs several times when they come to visit him in his crate, yet he feels entitled to come into their crates. Not only that, but my dogs just don't know how to teach him how to be a dog. They're way too submissive. I feel that trying to take dominance over him is making him even more stand-offish, too. I don't think a dominant dog would be suitable for my family, especially not given Amaya's history with other dominant dogs, because she's already shy when it comes to meeting other dogs, and it's hard to get her to play.

I feel so bad, but I think we're going to take him back tomorrow. There will be someone out there to take Kuso and give him a wonderful home where they can work with him on this stuff, but I my main concern is finding another submissive dog that my dogs won't constantly be trying to find a way to get away from it, which they do. I find myself constantly putting Kuso in his crate to give my dogs a break, because they just don't know what to do, because he plays aggressively, too. He bites too hard, barks and growls at them, humps Amaya's face, and just tries to be overall dominant. It scares them. DX

Anyways, what do you guys think?​


----------



## whiteleo

I'm really sorry for saying this but I think your a hypocrite, you have come on this board and complained to no end about the crap people do on craigslist and such and how people just breed for money with no cares for the animal, I really think you should have thought this one out before even thinking about an Australian shepherd.
He'll probably go back to the humane society and be put to sleep because he is aggressive, or you could not have even got him, maybe like you shouldn't have because you were just in a hurry. I'm only thinking of the dog here, nothing personal, but when you work with a rescue group and have taken in 2 rescues yourself because they are siblings with your first dog, it gets to me. People always come up with excuses why they can't keep a dog, how about come up with some reasons to KEEP the dog.:smile:


----------



## whiteleo

Oh, and to everyone else on the board who I know read this post before I did and didn't respond to it, I know exactly what you wanted to say, but didn't have the guts to say it.


----------



## DaneMama

With working in rescue, you have to take into consideration the best home for the dog. And that means taking everyone into consideration, not just the dog. If the owner of the animal doesn't feel that its the right home for the dog, then it probably isn't. I will not try and pretend like I know her OR the dog and know exactly what her situation is like. It sounds like this puppy isn't the best match.

You don't always know what a dog will be like when you go to the shelter. True personalities can be hidden in situations like that, and it can be hard when those true personalities start to come out and they end up being an issue. It sounds to me like this puppy will take a fair bit of rehab to get him to understand boundaries and learn some manners. Considering his age, the rehab probably wont be as intense as if he were an adult with these behaviors ingrained into him. What you have to ask yourself is: Are you willing to work with him and do you have the time and energy to work with him?

Where did you adopt him from? If its a no kill shelter, I would talk to them about him, but if not...I would try and take him to one OR find a rescue that will take him and put him in a foster home that understands the care/training he needs. 



whiteleo said:


> I'm really sorry for saying this but I think your a hypocrite, you have come on this board and complained to no end about the crap people do on craigslist and such and how people just breed for money with no cares for the animal, I really think you should have thought this one out before even thinking about an Australian shepherd.
> He'll probably go back to the humane society and be put to sleep because he is aggressive, or you could not have even got him, maybe like you shouldn't have because you were just in a hurry. I'm only thinking of the dog here, nothing personal, but when you work with a rescue group and have taken in 2 rescues yourself because they are siblings with your first dog, it gets to me. People always come up with excuses why they can't keep a dog, how about come up with some reasons to KEEP the dog.:smile:


Ouch, unnecessarily mean :frown:

I don't understand why you are chewing her out for trying to adopt a dog. Her previous posts on this board really have nothing to do with this current thread 



whiteleo said:


> Oh, and to everyone else on the board who I know read this post before I did and didn't respond to it, I know exactly what you wanted to say, but didn't have the guts to say it.


I didn't post up before because I honestly didn't see it until now.

I think you are being a bit harsh here and need to take a step back and think about what you are saying before you say it. There is no reason to be so harsh. At least she tried to rescue him...sheesh.


----------



## luvMyBRT

I would have to agree. :smile: Nothing personal as I know you had good intentions. And I admire your trying to adopt him.

It sounds like you need to take control of the situation. It is aparent that he thinks he is in charge and can do whatever he wants. If your dogs are too submissive to put him in his place, then you need to. It sounds to me as if he came into the home and no one took control. He is in need of some guideance, and needs to be shown some direction. Just putting him in his kennel will not help the problem. No need to be harsh and mean with him. Be calm, but consistant. Give lots of praise when he does what is right. One thing to your advantage is that he is a puppy and very young.

I hope you decide to keep him and stick it out a bit longer. He deserves it. :smile:


----------



## harrkim120

Honestly, I can understand both Whiteleo's and Danemama's sides here. 

I would honestly give it your all before you give up. Every dog should go through some formal training, IMO. Whether it be done solely by the owner or with a trainer. Sounds like you could use some trainer help. Maybe sign him up for some puppy classes at a reputable school in the area. You'd be amazed at how getting to socialize with other puppy owners can make you feel better. :smile:


----------



## CorgiPaws

xxshaelxx said:


> He's snapped at Adam and I several times, like, aggressively,


I honestly have a really hard time wrapping my head around a 4 month old dog being truely aggressive. I will be honest, I don't know the whole story about where he came from, but to me, any dog with any issues this young can be very quickly worked with. It really really breaks my heart that someone would give up on a dog this young, and write it off because "someone else out there will deal with it." YOU got this dog. YOU need to seek the help to deal with it. 
Chesney snapped at my husband around that age, and it was all a matter of her not knowing any better than to think she's the boss. We did some nothing in life is free training, and poof, all better. I really hope that you seek other options than dumping this puppy.



xxshaelxx said:


> he's food aggressive (with both the other dogs AND myself),


Very very easy to work with. (why are you messing with him while he eats, anyway? sheesh) Definately NOT grounds to get rid of a puppy. I mean, come on, he's young, and his issues all seem pretty typical and easy enough to work with. I'm bothered that getting rid of him has been even thought of. 



xxshaelxx said:


> he has snapped at the other two dogs several times when they come to visit him in his crate, yet he feels entitled to come into their crates. Not only that, but my dogs just don't know how to teach him how to be a dog. They're way too submissive.


Dogs do not have the logical thinking power to fathom the "golden rule." Your dogs shouldn't so much as put their nose in his crate. it's his. He should not be putting his nose in your other dog's crates. It's theirs. This sounds like a situation in which you as the pack leader need to step in and show him where he can and can not be. It is not your rasident's dogs responsibility to train this puppy. They did not rush out and get him. They did not bring him into your home. They did not ask for a new sibling. YOU did, and you need to jump on the training. 



xxshaelxx said:


> I feel that trying to take dominance over him is making him even more stand-offish, too. I don't think a dominant dog would be suitable for my family, especially not given Amaya's history with other dominant dogs, because she's already shy when it comes to meeting other dogs, and it's hard to get her to play.


It sounds to me like he just needs boundaries, and he needs you to show them to him in an entirely non threatening way. I really think that members of this forum can really help you work through his issues and make him a wonderful dog. You just have to remember to not ask him to go against natural instincts, but rather to make him want to listen to you. "leave it" and "drop it" are probably the best commands to teach a dog that has yet to realize he's not the boss. In fact, those two commands are great for relationship building when taught properly as well, because you're showing them that if they listen to YOU, there's something in it for THEM, and it bypasses any aggression associated with resource guarding (food aggression)



xxshaelxx said:


> I feel so bad, but I think we're going to take him back tomorrow. There will be someone out there to take Kuso and give him a wonderful home where they can work with him on this stuff, but I my main concern is finding another submissive dog that my dogs won't constantly be trying to find a way to get away from it, which they do.


Wait. YOUR MAIN CONCERN is not the welfare of this dog that YOU brought into your home, but rather dumping him and finding a different dog? 
No no no no no. Please please don't do that. There is no perfect dog out there, there are many dogs and puppies that really just need boundaries and guidence, and if you can't work with this one how will you work with the next? 
This is YOUR dog. YOUR decision. YOUR responsibility. Please, please think about that before you dump him for "someone out there" to deal with. 



xxshaelxx said:


> I find myself constantly putting Kuso in his crate to give my dogs a break, because they just don't know what to do, because he plays aggressively, too. He bites too hard, barks and growls at them, humps Amaya's face, and just tries to be overall dominant. It scares them. DX


Why not find yourself constantly correcting him instead, and praising him for proper behavior? By throwing him in his crate every time he annoys your other dogs, you're confusing him (growling, biting, and barking is not wrong for a dog. at all.) by punnishing him for something that comes so natural and is entirely normal in play (remember playing is one of two things: play fighting, or play hunting, so unless true blood is being drawn, don't step in) AND you're telling your other dogs that it's OK to be intolerent of things they don't like, AND if they are scared, by putting him away you're saying "Yes, he's scary, be afraid" and only reinforcing everything that is going on. 



xxshaelxx said:


> Anyways, what do you guys think?


I'm just reminding you that you asked what we thought. I really think that he just needs you to show him what's okay and what's not in a non threatening manner. 

I must agree with Whiteleo, though... with as much as you come on here griping about what everyone on CL does and how they breed and dump their animals, it comes as a bit of a shock that you yourself are jumping into the dumping a puppy for no good reason category. But hey, at least you can spell, right? Because those people who can't are terrible.


----------



## harrkim120

Oh and one other thing that I forgot to mention.....

A tired dog is a happy dog. If he's not getting enough exercise then he's going to be 5 times worse. Also, if he's not eating, sleeping, peeing, or pooping then he should be constantly entertained with something. If not, then he'll find a way to entertain himself, and it definitely won't be something you'll like. If he's busy doing something else then he won't have an interest to bother the others.


----------



## harrkim120

Well said Corgipaws....I would thank you more than once if I could. :biggrin:


----------



## CorgiPaws

A couple of things here, which of course I trust Natalie knows are not personal.:wink:



danemama08 said:


> You don't always know what a dog will be like when you go to the shelter. True personalities can be hidden in situations like that, and it can be hard when those true personalities start to come out and they end up being an issue.


I can testify to this, as the first cat we got, as some of you might remember, Tilly, ended up being one of these cases... and we consulted a couple members of this forum in private, as well as an animal behaviorist, as well as our vet before making any decisions on her. She ended up being put to sleep, as she had drawn blood unprovoked on every member of this household, as well as an awful bite on by husband's shoulder (she attacked from behind) that was also unprovoked. Vet said she more than likely has a tumor pressing on her brain causing the unpredictable behavior. My point is, with shelter animals (and even some from breeders) you simply don't know what you're getting into, and they can change upon getting them home. In this respect, I agree with natalie, that perhaps this puppy has some issues that the OP was unaware of upon bringing the puppy home. 



danemama08 said:


> It sounds to me like this puppy will take a fair bit of rehab to get him to understand boundaries and learn some manners.


I'm personally going to say it sounds like typical untrained puppy behavior, to me. Just my opinion, but the snapping, the resource guarding, that's pretty typical of puppies. Not saying every puppy does it, but it's a part of the learning process that obviously a shelter puppy this young has not had yet.



danemama08 said:


> Considering his age, the rehab probably wont be as intense as if he were an adult with these behaviors ingrained into him. What you have to ask yourself is: Are you willing to work with him and do you have the time and energy to work with him?


My personal opinion here, which might not be the popular opinion, is that the moment you sign those adoption papers, you are taking on the responsibility and OBLIGATION to put forth time and energy to work with that animal, not pass them on because "oops, he's not perfect. NEXT!" I would say this is especially the case with a rescue animal.


*ETA:* I'd like to add that none of this is personal to natalie or to the OP, that I am just forming an opinion based on the limited amount of information given to the particular situation. Surrendering an animal is a sensitive topic for any member of this forum, as none of us would be here if we did not have a deep love of our pets.


----------



## DaneMama

I never said that I didn't agree with whiteleo. She just came at in the completely WRONG way. Unnecessarily mean in my opinion. She could have gotten her point across a bit more friendly...people tend to shut down and not listen when they are being chewed out.

I personally would keep up with the work in training the puppy and teaching him some manners. It will take some rehab, but to me that isn't too much work and the rewards will be well worth it.

BUT a lot of people don't have the time for a special needs puppy that does require a bit of work, and that is where I am coming from on the other side of this issue. Maybe this home isn't the best one for a puppy like this one??? It sounds to me like she had no idea that this puppy was going to be such a terror at the time of signing the papers. 

I think we all need to be a POSITIVE force here and help her...not yell at her.

I don't take much on this forum personally...which is probably why I'm still here :wink: :biggrin:


----------



## CorgiPaws

danemama08 said:


> I think we all need to be a POSITIVE force here and help her...not yell at her.


I agree, but I also think someone asking for comments on a controversial topic, should be ready for whatever they hear. I think the OP has stuck it out on this forum and can handle it, whereas many might not be able to. I could be wrong here, but I'm giving the OP that credit. :biggrin: I also apologize if my posts came across as yelling or attacking. My intent was to simply give my comments and opinion in an honest way. 



danemama08 said:


> I don't take much on this forum personally...which is probably why I'm still here:biggrin:


I knew you wouldn't. :biggrin: But I did feel the need to specify for anyone else who might be reading. :wink:


Again, this is a sensitive topic in which I am sure that we all have very passionate opinions on, and discussing it does have great potential of pissing a few people off, or even hurting feelings. While I am sure that's no ones goal, I will take it upon myself to _recommend not jumping in if you're easily offended, but also keeping other's opinions RESPECTIVELY in mind should you decide to post on a topic as touchy as this. _


----------



## DaneMama

CorgiPaws said:


> I agree, but I also think someone asking for comments on a controversial topic, should be ready for whatever they hear. I think the OP has stuck it out on this forum and can handle it, whereas many might not be able to. I could be wrong here, but I'm giving the OP that credit. :biggrin: I also apologize if my posts came across as yelling or attacking. My intent was to simply give my comments and opinion in an honest way.
> 
> Again, this is a sensitive topic in which I am sure that we all have very passionate opinions on, and discussing it does have great potential of pissing a few people off, or even hurting feelings. While I am sure that's no ones goal, I will take it upon myself to _recommend not jumping in if you're easily offended, but also keeping other's opinions RESPECTIVELY in mind should you decide to post on a topic as touchy as this. _


It is a very controversial subject to touch on, but that doesn't mean we should be mean to anyone about it. I don't think you were mean or came across as attacking in your posts because you actually had a thought out response. Its just that leo typed up just an attack and no helpful response that really got me upset. If you haven't got anything nice to say, don't say it at all.

If it were me I would give this puppy a fighting chance at working out, considering he is young and impressionable. With the Dane rescue we tell families to stick it out for at least a month or two to get everyone adjusted and in a comfortable place within the home. Since its only been a few days, that is hardly enough time to get to know this dog well or even time to work with him really.


----------



## whiteleo

Natalie, I wasn't yelling at xxshaexx I'm just very passionate about dogs being adopted or bought and then given up for god knows what reasons people come up with.
I'd just got home from work and this was the first post I came to, I even reread it before I hit submit. I'm not sorry for speaking on a subject we all hold close to our hearts, she asked what we thought and I told her what I thought, I'm sure she knew that it was going to be a controversial thread. I wasn't trying to hurt anyones feelings!


----------



## CorgiPaws

danemama08 said:


> . If you haven't got anything nice to say, don't say it at all.


In 99.9% of cases, I would agree with this entirely. 

However, when someone flat out asks for opinions and comments on a subject thy surely know is controversial, I think it's fair for anyone to respond, not just those with positive remarks. 


Anyway, sorry to have somewhat hijacked the thread... back to the issue at hand!:biggrin:


----------



## DaneMama

whiteleo said:


> Natalie, I wasn't yelling at xxshaexx I'm just very passionate about dogs being adopted or bought and then given up for god knows what reasons people come up with.
> I'd just got home from work and this was the first post I came to, I even reread it before I hit submit. I'm not sorry for speaking on a subject we all hold close to our hearts, she asked what we thought and I told her what I thought, I'm sure she knew that it was going to be a controversial thread. I wasn't trying to hurt anyones feelings!


Don't feel bad about being passionate about this subject, we all are. I feel the same way about it considering I hear every excuse in the book when people surrender their dogs to rescue. It makes me sad when people give up on their dogs. We just need to help her and give her support right now, rather than getting on her back. 

I was just completely taken aback by your response to her because usually you are very helpful and friendly. Thats all.


----------



## xxshaelxx

I'm not a fan of dumping dogs either. I never have been, and I never will be. This is a hard decision for me, and I'm not even 100% sure about anything yet. But it's hard to see my OWN dogs go through what they are going through. I wanted another dog as POSITIVE experience for Amaya, not JUST for myself. There are other reasons I wanted another dog as well, and the main one being that now that I have purchased two dogs from a breeder, I wanted to adopt one as well, save a life.

My biggest issue is that Amaya is already REALLY sensitive to other dogs. She's been attacked twice at the dog park, and since then she has been EXTREMELY skittish around other dogs. I went to Petco a few weeks ago and saw another dog there, and if I'd have known I'd be adopting a dog soon, I'd have adopted her, but she was PERFECT for Amaya, because she was submissive as well, and soon Amaya began to play, and it was wonderful. I wanted THAT for her, I wanted her to have another friend to PLAY with and realize that it's a wonderful thing to play with other dogs. It's been the exact opposite. I feel as though every correction I make with Kuso is a step backwards for her, because she's been closing herself off more and more.

That is the biggest underlying problem in this situation, and if it wasn't for that, I'd have NO problem sitting here day after day, correcting the pup myself, teaching him that he's the lowest member of the pack right now, that he needs to respect those above him, but it's teaching Amaya nothing about socialization, socialization that I don't feel she gets when I take her out to Petco or other places. There have been plenty of good experiences out there for her, but never long enough to make any kind of dent. THIS experience is CERTAINLY making a dent with her, and not a positive one.

I really do like Kuso. He's got a great personality (minus the dominant traits), and the most adorable face. I just don't want to ruin my dogs just to save him. When we went to adopt him, none of these issues were present with my dogs. My dogs seemed to get along with him, and he did well with them. The only problem we had was with his aggression towards people, aggression when I tried to correct him. Not only that, but the vets didn't exactly help when they told us that he just wanted attention and lied up their ASSES about how he was. Literally...And when I said in a previous post about him not being potty trained, I really meant that he wasn't, not that it was just a case of him being in a new environment. He went to the bathroom in the vet office, and the techs just gave excuses for him. That's all they did, actually, was give excuses for him, so I'm pretty damned sure they never corrected him on anything. HELL, when he was EXTREMELY nippy when they first brought him out, they made excuses. I was, like, "seriously?"

Now, I'm going to sit on this for a few days, and I'm certainly going to take all of your suggestions into consideration. HOWEVER, just know that when I posted for your guys opinions, I wasn't asking to be attacked. I was rather asking for your guys opinions on what I SHOULD do. Do you guys seriously think that I don't already feel bad enough without people sitting here throwing it in my face about what a bad person I am? I already know I'm a hypocrite. I already know that if I take him back I will have done a bad thing in even adopting him. I already know that I've made mistakes.

And thank you, Danemama, for taking these things into account and sticking up for me in some respect.​


----------



## xxshaelxx

Oh, and by the way, he came from a no-kill shelter, and I would NEVER think about taking him back if he didn't. I'd find a home for him myself if it really came down to that.​


----------



## CorgiPaws

xxshaelxx said:


> This is a hard decision for me, and I'm not even 100% sure about anything yet.


Just give him a little more time, he's still very new to your house, and that throws off the balance of things a bit. I honestly am suprised Chesney ever found her place in our pack, she had a really really tough time, and still has a hard time communicating with the other dogs. (the woman we got her from had bought her at a pet shop, so I am assuming she did not spend 8 weeks with littermates) but she's a work in progress. Your pup is about the same age, which is why I keep mentioning our Chesney, as it sounds like he's having pretty much exactly the problems we have with her.



xxshaelxx said:


> correcting the pup myself, teaching him that he's the lowest member of the pack right now, that he needs to respect those above him,


Dogs will form their own pack order of command, and it's not always the youngest come last. Just keep that in mind. If one has a naturally more confident and dominent personality, and the other is a submissive pushover (not used with negative connotation, of course) then it doesn't matter who came first, the dominent one will find his place in the pack, and that's not going to be on the bottom. For example, my dogs entered my house in the following order: champ, grissom, annie, chesney. the pecking order they have fit into is champ, annie, chesney, grissom. Let them work out who sits where on their own.
The only one who has to be "above" him is you. Let the dogs decide on their own. 



xxshaelxx said:


> There have been plenty of good experiences out there for her, but never long enough to make any kind of dent. THIS experience is CERTAINLY making a dent with her, and not a positive one.


Just give it some time. He's very new to your family. Dogs have a way of working out their issues when they realize that they're all there to stay. It takes my Champ about two weeks to even begin to accept a new member of the family. (and when he finally does, he first has to throw them to the ground, and hold them there "growling" for about 5 seconds, before he lets them go... and then they're best friends. Is it fun to watch? no. Is he trying to hurt them? no. DO I interfere? Absolutely not. It's happened with all three of the other dogs. It's his way of saying "alright, looks like you're sticking around just like the rest of us, but let's get one thing straight around here- i'm the boss"



xxshaelxx said:


> Now, I'm going to sit on this for a few days, and I'm certainly going to take all of your suggestions into consideration. HOWEVER, just know that when I posted for your guys opinions, I wasn't asking to be attacked.


I apologize if I came across as attacking. :redface:



xxshaelxx said:


> Do you guys seriously think that I don't already feel bad enough without people sitting here throwing it in my face about what a bad person I am? I already know I'm a hypocrite.


Please don't think that about yourself. You are not a terrible person, at least as far as I can tell. No one wants to make you feel that way, it's just a very very passionate topic for most people, and it's very easy to give a passionate response. Try to look at it as an outsider. We only have what you tell us, and you have been rather quick to jump on others you see on CL, and here's such a limited amount of information given here.... but I am certain that no one's intent was to make you feel that way. I am sorry if I was part of that. 



xxshaelxx said:


> I already know that if I take him back I will have done a bad thing in even adopting him. I already know that I've made mistakes.


You tried to SAVE him, to give him a better life, to make him HAPPY. No matter what the outcome, you did not do a bad thing by rescuing. He's just more of a handful than you thought, and needs a bit of training. Every dog comes with suprises. You have NOT done him any injustice by trying to save him. Now he just needs you to work with him so everyone can coexist peacefully. 

I am confident that we can help you mold him into a wonderful companion. I would love to see a detailed, no emotion account of some of the specific incidents that you've had with him so that we can offer more informed, solid tips and advice so you can help work with him through his problems.


----------



## xxshaelxx

CorgiPaws said:


> I would love to see a detailed, no emotion account of some of the specific incidents that you've had with him so that we can offer more informed, solid tips and advice so you can help work with him through his problems.


When we were signing the adoption paperwork, one of the techs came out to weigh some kittens and he got really excited. Well, when she started to walk away, he got really mad that she didn't let him see them, and started to yap really loudly, so I went to shush him, and he started to snarl and bite me.

Then there was one time he bit me, and I went to grab his nose to let him know not to bite me, and he pulled back and bit me harder while snarling.

With my dogs, he bites way too hard, and he'll hold on, and my dogs will just run around like dumb butts not knowing that this is what they're supposed to correct. If they don't pay enough attention to them, he will literally start to snarl and snap at their noses. I've actually heard Ryou start whining and yelping because of this, and he still doesn't know to correct him on this.

And I know that dogs will establish their own pecking order, but he goes about it way overboard. They'll be submissive to his attempts to dominate them, and he'll take it further because he knows he can. Like when he starts to bark at them and they differ, he literally continues to go after them, snapping and snarling, and I don't mean, like, a little puppy growl.



So, I'm having my friend come over right now, the one with the two pit bulls that I'm babysitting for her, and she's going to work with Kuso with her one dog that doesn't have aggression problems, because he's really good with puppies and knows how to correct. I'd ask for Rachel to do the same, but she's always working. haha. I'm hoping that after my other friend has worked with them a bit, I can also do the same, and using Havoc, teach Kuso more on how to be a dog, teach him more about bite inhibition, because when I go to correct him on his people issues, he'll do really well, but when I go to correct him on his dog issues, he'll just go right back to doing the same things.​


----------



## CorgiPaws

xxshaelxx said:


> When we were signing the adoption paperwork, one of the techs came out to weigh some kittens and he got really excited. Well, when she started to walk away, he got really mad that she didn't let him see them, and started to yap really loudly, so I went to shush him, and he started to snarl and bite me.


Did you ask the shelter workers if he had a history of aggression? Not that I don't have respect for shelters, but i know that sometimes they decide not to disclose information they don't think is a big deal, in hopes that the dog finds a home quickly. 
What did you do to try to quiet him? I don't mean to interrogate, it's just that the more information we have, the better we can help you.



xxshaelxx said:


> Then there was one time he bit me, and I went to grab his nose to let him know not to bite me, and he pulled back and bit me harder while snarling.


What happened before he bit? What led up to it? That's the most important thing to look at. 
I would not grab his nose, but rather make a loud, high pitched yelping noise, and if that does not work, a firm "NO!" Some puppies even persist past that, and in that case, I'd recommend what i call a "mini time out" which is less than two minutes long in an isolated area. The only way it would be longer is if the puppy is crying or otherwise trying to get out of the time out area, then I wait until they are calm to let them out. Sometimes it takes a very long time, a few hours, even, to get the point across. Never use a crate as a time out. I used a little playpen for grissom when I was training him to not use his mouth on me. I'd put him in the playpen, and turn my back to him for about 45 seconds is all if he was actually calm. We did this 18 times straight in a row once! It's important, if it comes to mini time outs, to go IMMEDIATELY to time out zone following the mouthing or biting so they know EXACTLY what acton is warrenting the time out. With adult dogs, you can usually just turn your back to them and ignore them without a "time out zone" but puppies sometimes will just jump all over your back and nto get the point. This just shows them that they will not get any play time or attention if they go about it in that way. 



xxshaelxx said:


> With my dogs, he bites way too hard, and he'll hold on, and my dogs will just run around like dumb butts not knowing that this is what they're supposed to correct. If they don't pay enough attention to them, he will literally start to snarl and snap at their noses. I've actually heard Ryou start whining and yelping because of this, and he still doesn't know to correct him on this.


Unless they are crying and yelping, he's not hurting them or biting too hard. When they do cry or yelp, that is his signal to let go, or at least not bite so hard. 
The times that they are yelping or crying, if he's not letting go, please give more details on specific situations. Dogs are pretty good at getting their point across, they aren't going to let him actually hurt them, and just lay back and take it. I assure you, because they are dogs, they will react to pain, even if they're not sure how to communicate. 
Puppies do get snippy when they want attention from people or other dogs, I wouldn't pinpoint that as aggression, just make sure that when he does it to you, you yelp. When my puppies mouth my hands, I poke their tongue with my finger. not hard or anything, not enough to hurt, just enough for them to not WANT my fingers in their mouths. 



xxshaelxx said:


> And I know that dogs will establish their own pecking order, but he goes about it way overboard. They'll be submissive to his attempts to dominate them, and he'll take it further because he knows he can. Like when he starts to bark at them and they differ, he literally continues to go after them, snapping and snarling, and I don't mean, like, a little puppy growl.


He's probably just wanting their attention. If he was being truely aggressive, he would really attack, not just be snappy. My dogs sound downright vicious when they play, or want to play. Playing is always one of two things: play fighting, or play hunting, both of which can seem very aggressive. 



xxshaelxx said:


> So, I'm having my friend come over right now, the one with the two pit bulls that I'm babysitting for her, and she's going to work with Kuso with her one dog that doesn't have aggression problems, because he's really good with puppies and knows how to correct.


What's the plan on working with him? 
When we had issues with chesney around this age, we taught her that she's not the boss by "Nothing in life is free" methods. She had to work for everything. We even used a couple of her boneless meals and cut them into tiny pieces, and made her sit and wait for every single piece of her dinner. It took a long time, but after a few nights, we really started to see results, and she was much more responsive to our basic commands. It's easy, but time consuming, but definately worth giving a shot for a few meals. 



xxshaelxx said:


> , because when I go to correct him on his people issues, he'll do really well, but when I go to correct him on his dog issues, he'll just go right back to doing the same things.


Keep working with him, he deserves it, don't give up! He needs you, and you've done a wonderful thing by rescuing him. 
Sorry to ask so many questions, it's just the easiest way to be able to assess the situation without being there. Just remember that human intervention is not always called for in canine interactions. :wink:


ETA: I would REALLY do a puppy class in your area that offers a decent amount of playtime. Puppies often times learn best from puppies, so that playtime with others around their age can really help out. Also keep in mind that he is a high energy breed (we think. lol) and because of that, the more activity, the better, whic applies to all breeds, but moreso here.


----------



## rannmiller

I've had way too many rescue situations with myself or friends that started out rough and they wanted to give up but they stuck it out a little longer and the extra effort they had to make with their new pets actually helped them to bond even closer and now they love each other and can't imagine life without their rescued pet!

When I first got Milo home, he started displaying really dominant behaviors I hadn't seen previously. He would snarl and snap at the other dogs, especially if they came to us for attention while he was getting petted, he wouldn't move for us on the couch or bed, and he constantly went after my cat. I tell you it's amazing how much it lowers a dog's dominance level to just revoke their furniture privileges! Milo wasn't allowed on furniture for a year, and he very quickly learned that he was not the top dog on the totem poll. He still stares at my cat, but for the most part, he never approaches her anymore. And if he does, he gets swatted in the face and runs away or I just tell him to leave it. He still has some dominance issues when it comes to new dogs and he likes to get snarky with them, but I cannot imagine life without my little puppy love! 

When I first got Penny as a puppy, it took two years to house break her fully and she ate carpet and stairs all the time because apparently, carpet is delicious. 

When I adopted Swoshum (my cat) from the shelter at 6 months old, she was the most anti-social creature ever. She didn't want to be petted, held, loved, nothing. She wanted nothing to do with us. But I wanted her because she was a black cat and mean and figured no one else would adopt her (I was 8 years old at the time), and also because she was really soft. I like soft things. Anyway, it took her almost 7 years, but she finally came around and decided I wasn't so bad, but I was the only one she liked. Now that she's 15 years old, she lets most people pet her, but still hates to be held. And I still think she's the best, most amazing cat ever because she is my fur-kitten (yes, it's a stupid nickname, but you know what? I don't care!). I love her b****y cattitude. 

My friend Dana rushed into getting an unneutered male 1 1/2 year old black lab who had lived outside for most of his life for free off of craigslist. I warned her he'd be a lot of work before she got him. The first two weeks he drove her crazy because he was totally not house broken, she didn't have a fenced yard, she isn't what you'd call an active person by any stretch of the imagination, and he ate her and her bf's stuff on a fairly regular basis. By two weeks, she approached me and said, "You know, I just don't think Perseus is going to work out for me, he's just too much work." I matter-of-factly told her that I had warned her he'd be a lot of work and if she didn't think she was up to it then she shouldn't have gotten him in the first place and he was her responsibility now so she'd betters start acting like it because there are way too many unwanted black labs and lab mixes in the world already. Well she started crying and felt awful, she decided to give it another week and actually try to work with him and exercise him this time. Lo and behold, a week later she was already bonding with him, he was behaving better, and she decided to keep him! She's had him for 3 years now and absolutely adores him. 

Anyway, my point is, there is always an adjustment period and you really need to give it your all before just giving up on a pet you have committed to. If you have exhausted every resource and he still isn't working out, THEN you should consider giving him back if you truly think he won't work out. However, I'd also like you to keep in mind that you specifically told me that you want a high energy dog because you love the challenge. Well it sounds to me like Mr. Kuso is definitely a challenge and should be exactly what you're looking for. The point of a challenge is that it tries your patience and makes you doubt yourself so you can come up with even better ways of overcoming the problem, not to bail on it as soon as it challenges you! 

One other thing, while I know that you are obviously going to be more attached to Amaya and Ryou, it really made me sad when you said you need to look out for what is best for YOUR dogs, as if poor Kuso is not one of your dogs too. You also need to do what is best for him. If that's sending him back because he truly isn't a good fit, then so be it. But you need to make absolutely sure first and give him a good fighting chance too. Sign up for a training class with him, it will be a great bonding experience for the two of you and great socialization for him. I'd recommend Sarah Anderson at Dogz Inc because she is great with working with difficult doggies! (and her classes are the cheapest ones in the area, that doesn't hurt either :wink: )

As far as behavioral issues go with him "playing too rough" with your dogs, trust me, they should be letting him know if it really is too rough. They will yelp, and he _should_ let go. This should also be applied to you. I had to do this with Peyton since she was a mouthy Doberman puppy, all i ever have to do is yelp and she immediately stops. You may feel silly doing it at first, but it's like second nature to me now (yay I'm learning to speak Dog). Just work on praising him when he is good and correcting him consistently, fairly, and calmly when he does something unwanted, and you should see results pretty quickly.


----------



## chowder

I'll put in my two cents worth because I've had two really aggressive Chow puppies. Until you have had a really aggressive puppy, you can't appreciate what it is like to live with one and try to work with one. My first puppy was aggressive at 8 weeks old and literally started attacking her litter mate to the point that the other puppy would cower in fear and be covered in saliva and foam and blood. I had never seen anything like it. I couldn't even let the two dogs be in the same room together. The other pup was 4 months old and was possession and food aggressive to the point that he would snap and bite over any object he desired, whether it was a toy, or any tiny bit of food he found on the floor. This pup had potential but it was taking constant work and training to get him to the point where he would even let us play with him. Unfortunately he died of a genetic defect. 

The point is, until you have personally worked with one of these dogs, you can't realize the impact it has on your family and how much it effort is reguired. It's a 24/7 thing because you lay there at night worry about the dog and then you spend all day working with them.

There may be actually be times it is better for the dog to be in a home where he can get more personal attention and time then you can give him, especially if you have other dogs and children. You have to think of the dog first.


----------



## xxshaelxx

CorgiPaws said:


> Did you ask the shelter workers if he had a history of aggression? Not that I don't have respect for shelters, but i know that sometimes they decide not to disclose information they don't think is a big deal, in hopes that the dog finds a home quickly.
> What did you do to try to quiet him? I don't mean to interrogate, it's just that the more information we have, the better we can help you.


When this happened, I told the vet techs, and they said it had never happened before, but then again, I don't think they ever corrected him on anything. They came up with excuses when he was really nippy when they first brought him out. The nippy thing was one thing, and I didn't mind correcting that, but I think the not correcting him previously led him to believe he could get away with it, then when someone actually DID try to correct him, he got pissy.
Actually, all I did was move my hand in front of his face while saying "No." The motion of me moving my hand in front of his face kind of startled him, and he knew he was being corrected, so he just kind of snapped--started to snarl and bite my hand aggressively, not just playfully.



CorgiPaws said:


> What happened before he bit? What led up to it? That's the most important thing to look at.
> I would not grab his nose, but rather make a loud, high pitched yelping noise, and if that does not work, a firm "NO!" Some puppies even persist past that, and in that case, I'd recommend what i call a "mini time out" which is less than two minutes long in an isolated area. The only way it would be longer is if the puppy is crying or otherwise trying to get out of the time out area, then I wait until they are calm to let them out. Sometimes it takes a very long time, a few hours, even, to get the point across. Never use a crate as a time out. I used a little playpen for grissom when I was training him to not use his mouth on me. I'd put him in the playpen, and turn my back to him for about 45 seconds is all if he was actually calm. We did this 18 times straight in a row once! It's important, if it comes to mini time outs, to go IMMEDIATELY to time out zone following the mouthing or biting so they know EXACTLY what acton is warrenting the time out. With adult dogs, you can usually just turn your back to them and ignore them without a "time out zone" but puppies sometimes will just jump all over your back and nto get the point. This just shows them that they will not get any play time or attention if they go about it in that way.


I reached over to pet him, but not out of the blue or anything, and he was looking right at me as though expecting something, and he got nippy with me, so I corrected him by going to grab his mouth, and that's when he bit me. He pulled back and bit me.
Also, with the grabbing his mouth thing, I read about that on the Internet, and it really does work for him, When we were at the vet clinic visiting him, he would get nippy and that is what I did. I did it twice before he realized what it meant, and that's when he stopped being nippy, because he didn't like getting his mouth grabbed. I still do yelp when he does it, though, and I don't ALWAYS grab his mouth. I give him two chances before I grab his mouth. So there's the first yelp, then if he does it again, I grab his mouth and tell him "No!" like I'm barking at him, then I'll let it go and turn away from him and ignore him.



CorgiPaws said:


> Unless they are crying and yelping, he's not hurting them or biting too hard. When they do cry or yelp, that is his signal to let go, or at least not bite so hard.
> The times that they are yelping or crying, if he's not letting go, please give more details on specific situations. Dogs are pretty good at getting their point across, they aren't going to let him actually hurt them, and just lay back and take it. I assure you, because they are dogs, they will react to pain, even if they're not sure how to communicate.
> Puppies do get snippy when they want attention from people or other dogs, I wouldn't pinpoint that as aggression, just make sure that when he does it to you, you yelp. When my puppies mouth my hands, I poke their tongue with my finger. not hard or anything, not enough to hurt, just enough for them to not WANT my fingers in their mouths.


Ryou actually was crying, and looking up at me with the "what do I do?" look in his face. He's been taught to never get aggressive over anything, and I think it's taken away from his memories of how to deal with dogs like Kuso.
Even when he was crying, Kuso wouldn't let go, because Ryou wouldn't correct him.



CorgiPaws said:


> He's probably just wanting their attention. If he was being truely aggressive, he would really attack, not just be snappy. My dogs sound downright vicious when they play, or want to play. Playing is always one of two things: play fighting, or play hunting, both of which can seem very aggressive.


My dogs also get really mean and vicious when playing, they get really mouthy, too. When they get too mouthy, I'll stop them, because it usually progresses into them actually fighting for dominance.



CorgiPaws said:


> What's the plan on working with him?
> When we had issues with chesney around this age, we taught her that she's not the boss by "Nothing in life is free" methods. She had to work for everything. We even used a couple of her boneless meals and cut them into tiny pieces, and made her sit and wait for every single piece of her dinner. It took a long time, but after a few nights, we really started to see results, and she was much more responsive to our basic commands. It's easy, but time consuming, but definately worth giving a shot for a few meals.


So we put Amaya and Ryou into the bedroom and let Kuso run up and sniff noses with Havoc while my friend held onto his collar to keep him calm for the meeting. After that, we let Havoc go and constantly told him "Gentle!" because he knows that command to calm down and not be so rough. Well, Kuso was extremely standoffish, because here was a dog that wanted to play WITH him, and not ignore him, and he constantly got growly and snappy. There were several times when Havoc turned away from him that he would lash out.
When we let Amaya and Ryou out to play with Havoc and Kuso as well, the three big dogs all had a blast playing together, but Kuso kept to the outside, even though the dogs kept trying to include him. Every time they would try to include him, he would get aggressive. Then he would randomly lash out at them as well.
My friend has worked with several aggressive dogs before, and she even admits that Kuso has some underlying issues, as if maybe he as in a pack of dogs before that pushed him out and were really aggressive with him. We both think that maybe the people who owned him before dumping him may have been abusive to him, and that when he got to the vet clinic, they never corrected him, only enforcing the behaviors.



CorgiPaws said:


> ETA: I would REALLY do a puppy class in your area that offers a decent amount of playtime. Puppies often times learn best from puppies, so that playtime with others around their age can really help out. Also keep in mind that he is a high energy breed (we think. lol) and because of that, the more activity, the better, whic applies to all breeds, but moreso here.


I think I'm going to do this, especially the one that Rachel referenced. Maybe the big dogs are intimidating, and it's not helping working with them, because one will either differ too much and give him his way too much, or the other just wants to play rougher than he wants to, and he's not in control. With other puppies, it may be a lot easier to get him used to other dogs that aren't going to be too far right or too far left (hope that makes sense XP).



Also, thank you to everyone for your advice. It's really given me a lot of courage, because before I was afraid that I wouldn't know what to do. 

Also, I had a REALLY positive experience with Amaya yesterday! When she got to play with Havoc, she absolutely loved it. It may actually be that she's in heat and wanted him to hump her, so she was getting all close and friendly, but now she knows he's fun to play with, so I'm going to continue to work with her and Havoc. XD​


----------



## xxshaelxx

So, I used someone's suggestion of cutting up his meal and feeding it to him in pieces and using commands. I taught Kuso how to wait. He did REALLY well and is REALLY food motivated. I think it helped him a LOT with the food aggression, because he realized that he was getting each and every piece from me and that he had to work for it. By the end of it, I had him MOSTLY waiting, and even looking up at me for the command "okay" to eat the piece. XDDD Also, every time he laid down, I told him "Down" and gave him the treat. I know I'm not supposed to mix commands, but that's what I STARTED out trying to teach him, and he just would NOT lay down. So I figure that I want to keep some treats on me, and every time he goes to lay down, I'll say "Down," and give him a treat when he's done laying down, try to teach him "down" that way. haha.

Oh, and I'm pretty sure he has German Shepherd in him now, because his ear was totally standing up for the most part. I took the cone off to make it easier. I also think the cone is part of the problem, because it limits his vision and makes it a lot harder for him to see things and yeah.

Ryou is warming up to Kuso. They're playing right now, and I haven't heard any barking, snarling, or any crying. I've heard a couple of yips, but surprisingly they've been from Kuso, not Ryou. I'm starting to think that my friend was right about him, that maybe he was in a pack that acted aggressive towards him and pushed him out of the pack, and that caused some long-lasting issues with him, because now he seems to be realizing that Ryou is going to include him in his pack, and he's getting better--but, now he's starting to get mean. haha. Spoke too soon. *goes to correct* Anyways, maybe it was the pack thing, or maybe it was feeding him by hand, or maybe it was even the experience with Havoc, but I dunno. He's doing better today, and I'm going to continue to use your guys' suggestions to work with him on everything.​


----------



## CorgiPaws

xxshaelxx said:


> So, I used someone's suggestion of cutting up his meal and feeding it to him in pieces and using commands. I taught Kuso how to wait. He did REALLY well and is REALLY food motivated. I think it helped him a LOT with the food aggression, because he realized that he was getting each and every piece from me and that he had to work for it. By the end of it, I had him MOSTLY waiting, and even looking up at me for the command "okay" to eat the piece. XDDD Also, every time he laid down, I told him "Down" and gave him the treat. I know I'm not supposed to mix commands, but that's what I STARTED out trying to teach him, and he just would NOT lay down. So I figure that I want to keep some treats on me, and every time he goes to lay down, I'll say "Down," and give him a treat when he's done laying down, try to teach him "down" that way. haha.
> 
> Oh, and I'm pretty sure he has German Shepherd in him now, because his ear was totally standing up for the most part. I took the cone off to make it easier. I also think the cone is part of the problem, because it limits his vision and makes it a lot harder for him to see things and yeah.
> 
> Ryou is warming up to Kuso. They're playing right now, and I haven't heard any barking, snarling, or any crying. I've heard a couple of yips, but surprisingly they've been from Kuso, not Ryou. I'm starting to think that my friend was right about him, that maybe he was in a pack that acted aggressive towards him and pushed him out of the pack, and that caused some long-lasting issues with him, because now he seems to be realizing that Ryou is going to include him in his pack, and he's getting better--but, now he's starting to get mean. haha. Spoke too soon. *goes to correct* Anyways, maybe it was the pack thing, or maybe it was feeding him by hand, or maybe it was even the experience with Havoc, but I dunno. He's doing better today, and I'm going to continue to use your guys' suggestions to work with him on everything.​


SO glad to hear the good news!!! I would continue to make him work for things for quite a while, puppies have a way of forgetting what they learned yesterday. haha.

I think that some time to settle in will do absolute wonders. Keep us posted, and please don't hesitate to ask ANY questions you might have. We're always here to help. :biggrin:


----------



## xxshaelxx

So, Amaya has, twice today, snarled and snapped at Kuso out of nowhere, not like she's correcting him for something. I corrected her, let her know not to be aggressive. It was quite interesting, though, because the first time I attributed it to the fact that it was feeding time and I was getting her to do her tricks before sending her to her crate to eat, and Kuso was in her face. The second time, though, I was just paying her some attention, and he trotted up for his own attention as he always does, and she just...snapped at him.  

Any opinions/suggestions there?​


----------



## DaneMama

It sounds like normal dog behavior and communication. If I were you I wouldn't pay so much attention to each little snap and snarl. Very rarely do these actions lead to something more serious. Let Amaya set boundaries with Kuso, snapping at him is how she tells him to "knock it off!" even if you didn't happen to see exactly what happened for her to do it.


----------



## xxshaelxx

Okay, then I won't correct her next time. XD Thank you!​


----------



## RCTRIPLEFRESH5

well i can see where the op is coming from. i sheltered my sisters 3 month old rottie puppy until she sold him9she has no regard for animal life)
and he was aggressive towards my dog, and was food aggressive towards me as well. i think that just shows bad genes in the dogs.

i had to keep the dog locked up all day as well, away from shane, cause i didnt want shane to get hurt even if the dog was smaller. also i was scared when the rottie grew up and was in heat it would hurt him!

on the other hand idont see why people adopt so many dogs...just get 1 maybe 2 dogs to devote all your time too. when i had the rottie i was definately neglecting shane for that time.


----------



## CorgiPaws

RCTRIPLEFRESH5 said:


> and he was aggressive towards my dog, and was food aggressive towards me as well. i think that just shows bad genes in the dogs.


It shows a lack of training on the human's end, ESPECIALLY if she was locked in a basement and not getting the proper socialization she needed.....



RCTRIPLEFRESH5 said:


> also i was scared when the rottie grew up and was in heat it would hurt him!


On what level does this make sense, out of curiosity? Dogs that grow up together, or a puppy that enters a household, finds his or her place in the pack... and her being in heat wouldn't be an issue if she were spayed....



RCTRIPLEFRESH5 said:


> on the other hand idont see why people adopt so many dogs...just get 1 maybe 2 dogs to devote all your time too. when i had the rottie i was definately neglecting shane for that time.


How were you neglecting him? You even admitted at the time she was locked away by herself all day. 
I have four dogs and I guarantee they're JUST as well taken care of, IF not MORE than your average single dog home. 
I think that dogs in single dog homes miss out on companionship of another dog. Not that everyone NEEDS two or more dogs, there are dogs happy in a single dog home... but i think it's INCREDIBLY ignorant to claim people with more dogs are negligent.


----------



## mstngchic2012

CorgiPaws said:


> I think that dogs in single dog homes miss out on companionship of another dog.


I disagree with this. I don't believe that dogs need another dog for a companion. I want a dog dependent and focused on me. I prefer that my dog think that I'm the best thing in world. But this is just my preference.


----------



## CorgiPaws

mstngchic2012 said:


> I disagree with this. I don't believe that dogs need another dog for a companion. I want a dog dependent and focused on me. I prefer that my dog think that I'm the best thing in world. But this is just my preference.


And that's where the sentence right after the one you quoted comes into play.
I never said they NEED another dog, anyway. I said that I think dogs can BENEFIT from it.

*ETA:* all FOUR of my dogs pretty much worship the ground I walk on. I don't think haveing more than one lessens their respect for me one bit. In my experience, _and I am NOT saying this is the case with any member of this forum_, just things I've seen in my day to day life... a lot of dogs that are the ONLY dog, are spoiled rotten with NO boundaries, and used to mommy and daddy's world revolving around them and them only. I've seen fewer cases of this in multiple dog homes.


----------



## DaneMama

mstngchic2012 said:


> I disagree with this. I don't believe that dogs need another dog for a companion. I want a dog dependent and focused on me. I prefer that my dog think that I'm the best thing in world. But this is just my preference.


Dogs are pack animals and thrive in that environment. While it may be your preference to have only one dog, typically dogs that live or that are raised with other dogs have better communication skills and not as many behavioral issues. 

We have had friends bring their "problem children" to spend time with our pack and those dogs always learn so much and are actually better behaved after they leave. This shows me that dogs learn from other dogs much better than they do from us.

I like having four dogs ALL focused on me :wink:


----------



## mstngchic2012

I don't think I explained myself correctly and that is my fault. I plan on having multiple dogs but not for my dogs' benefits if that makes sense? I'm not one of those people who says "oh my dog is lonely he needs a friend." I say this because my dog is happy in a one dog household and he is DA. I prefer not to get another dog at this current time because I do not have the time to work with more than one dog and I think it would be unfair to the dogs.


----------



## CorgiPaws

mstngchic2012 said:


> I don't think I explained myself correctly and that is my fault. I plan on having multiple dogs but not for my dogs' benefits if that makes sense? I'm not one of those people who says "oh my dog is lonely he needs a friend." I say this because my dog is happy in a one dog household and he is DA. I prefer not to get another dog at this current time because I do not have the time to work with more than one dog and I think it would be unfair to the dogs.


That makes much more sense, thank you for clerifying. I don't think getting a dog for the sole benefit of your current dog is usually a good idea. I like to have multiple dogs for the socialization aspect than the "lonely" aspect, but I just enjoy living in a zoo i guess. lol


----------



## xxshaelxx

CorgiPaws said:


> I just enjoy living in a zoo i guess. lol


*cough* That's me. haha.

Anyways, I think that even if you have more than one dog, you can still get them focused solely on you, because those other dogs aren't the ones providing them food. XD

I like having more than one dog, because when I'm too lazy to play with them, they play with each other. haha. Not only that, but I got Ryou to entertain Amaya, rather than letting her entertain herself with the cats, and it worked. XP​


----------



## mstngchic2012

CorgiPaws said:


> That makes much more sense, thank you for clerifying. I don't think getting a dog for the sole benefit of your current dog is usually a good idea. I like to have multiple dogs for the socialization aspect than the "lonely" aspect, but I just enjoy living in a zoo i guess. lol


Oh, I will have a zoo and be charging admission :wink: Once Brian and I get married and get our own place we plan on being mostly self-sufficient. We will be raising most of our own meat, dairy, and will have a nice size garden for personal consumption. I have been working with a family friend and learning how to can/preserve.

Anyhow, it just makes me cringe when I ask some people why they got another dog and their answer is "Well Fifi was lonely and she needed a sister/brother." I will be limiting some interactions between my dogs because of the breeds that I plan on being involved with... bull breeds who are known for their DA tendencies.


----------



## RCTRIPLEFRESH5

CorgiPaws said:


> It shows a lack of training on the human's end, ESPECIALLY if she was locked in a basement and not getting the proper socialization she needed.....
> 
> 
> On what level does this make sense, out of curiosity? Dogs that grow up together, or a puppy that enters a household, finds his or her place in the pack... and her being in heat wouldn't be an issue if she were spayed....
> 
> 
> How were you neglecting him? You even admitted at the time she was locked away by herself all day.
> I have four dogs and I guarantee they're JUST as well taken care of, IF not MORE than your average single dog home.
> I think that dogs in single dog homes miss out on companionship of another dog. Not that everyone NEEDS two or more dogs, there are dogs happy in a single dog home... but i think it's INCREDIBLY ignorant to claim people with more dogs are negligent.


well the dog was only 3 months, and we only locked her in the basement after she became aggressive. but we did play with her a bunch, just left her down there for a while.

ive known households that have had 4 dogs, and dogs can get aggressive towards each other. i was not taking that chance.

i wasnt saying people with more dogs are negligent im sure you take care of your dogs, but i dont see the need to have more than 1 or 2 dogs, and i think if you just had one youd take even better care of them, but im sure you treat your dogs fine.

i do miss jasmine though she was a smart girl, knew how to sit within two days of having her, and was potty trained as well all at 3 months.

whats a da?


----------



## CorgiPaws

RCTRIPLEFRESH5 said:


> well the dog was only 3 months, and we only locked her in the basement after she became aggressive. but we did play with her a bunch, just left her down there for a while.


Right. 3 months. Too young to be aggressive. 

Puppies need pretty constant stimulation. Locking a dog away in the basement, especially that young, is begging for trouble. 
At least she's in a new home now.


----------



## whiteleo

." I will be limiting some interactions between my dogs because of the breeds that I plan on being involved with... bull breeds who are known for their DA


----------



## rannmiller

I'm glad to hear that you're working with him and it's starting to pay off so quickly! :biggrin:


----------



## harrkim120

I second...what is a DA?


----------



## xxshaelxx

RCTRIPLEFRESH5 said:


> i wasnt saying people with more dogs are negligent im sure you take care of your dogs, but i dont see the need to have more than 1 or 2 dogs, and i think if you just had one youd take even better care of them, but im sure you treat your dogs fine.


I wouldn't take any better care of my dogs with less than two. In fact, they are better taken care of being in a larger group, because they have a lot more stimulation and a lot more exercise and a lot more attention. They don't get bored as easily when I'm too lazy to play with them, and they don't get anymore or any less attention than if there were less of them. All attention I give them is equal attention in their opinion.

By stating what you think about whether or not dogs would get better care in smaller groups, you are being kind of offensive. People can, and WILL take that the wrong way, because, even if you're not saying we're negligent, you ARE implying that our dogs are not as happy and would be happier if we had just one. We don't just treat our dogs "fine." Especially on this forum, we treat our dogs like royalty. 

Even Kuso, who I started out not really liking, who has had issues in this family, gets treated like royalty. I play with him, give him all kinds of attention, hand feed him, work with him, and love him just as much, and you can already tell how attached he is to us. I mean, he didn't follow around my friend when she came over the other day like he does Adam and I.

Siberian Huskies are not loyal dogs, and it says so on every little thing I've ever read about them. Yet my Sibes are MY dogs. They don't listen to my husband or anyone else, they look to me in situations where they don't know what to do, and they get just as excited when I come home as they do when anyone else comes through that door.​


----------



## xxshaelxx

harrkim120 said:


> I second...what is a DA?


I'm assuming DA means "Dog Aggressive."​


----------



## whiteleo

Oops didn't do it right..........................................................................................

Bull breeds are no different than any other breed it just depends on who is handling them and whose willing to do the time and pay the price to get them properly socialized as puppies. Puppy kindergarten should be a manadorty right of all dogs being bought by ANYONE. Dogparks don't work to socialize dogs properly. Dog aggression either happens because the owner is lazy and cheap, they think it's cool to have a dog everyone thinks is mean or they are just plain stupid.


----------



## CorgiPaws

harrkim120 said:


> I second...what is a DA?


DA= dog aggression.


----------



## mstngchic2012

whiteleo said:


> Oops didn't do it right..........................................................................................
> 
> Bull breeds are no different than any other breed it just depends on who is handling them and whose willing to do the time and pay the price to get them properly socialized as puppies. Puppy kindergarten should be a manadorty right of all dogs being bought by ANYONE. Dogparks don't work to socialize dogs properly. Dog aggression either happens because the owner is lazy and cheap, they think it's cool to have a dog everyone thinks is mean or they are just plain stupid.


Dog aggression (DA) is a genetic issue. It is part of their temperament which is genetic. It CANNOT be trained out or socialized out of a dog but it can be dealt with through lots of training. And yes, bull breeds are different because they were and still are bred for fighting. I am in no way praising dog fighter but a true breeder of fighting bulls will breed for DA. Many responsible breeders who trying to better the breed are really trying to breed out the DA through very selective breeding but they are so few and far between that it isn't making a dent in the bull breeds tendencies to be DA.


----------



## whiteleo

Well the English Bull Terrier was designed to bait bulls and when that was outlawed they then started fighting these dogs, I know as I have 3. If you take a dog from puppyhood and properly socialize it, genetics or not they can become a very trusting part of the community they live in. My female went through 3 puppyobedience classes before she was 6 1/2 months old, she'd never dream of biting another dog. But her 2 siblings who are rescues didn't get the great start that she got and they both have issues with DA, 1 has no self confidence around other dogs and that makes dogs come after him, the other one is leash aggressive with dogs and barks likes crazy at other people she doesn't know, she's getting better as I've had her now for 3/4 months.
So, I know what the bull breed is all about but I don't buy that it can't be worked with.


----------



## xxshaelxx

mstngchic2012 said:


> Dog aggression (DA) is a genetic issue. It is part of their temperament which is genetic. It CANNOT be trained out or socialized out of a dog but it can be dealt with through lots of training. And yes, bull breeds are different because they were and still are bred for fighting. I am in no way praising dog fighter but a true breeder of fighting bulls will breed for DA. Many responsible breeders who trying to better the breed are really trying to breed out the DA through very selective breeding but they are so few and far between that it isn't making a dent in the bull breeds tendencies to be DA.


That is only partially true. DA is, in some cases, genetic, but it CAN be trained out of dogs with the proper training, just like you can take a kitten from a stray and make them into an absolute lovebug.

Are you going to say that Cesar Millan hasn't worked wonders with DA dogs? If you've never seen his show, maybe you should, because he has really worked wonders with dogs that are just plain uncontrollable, dogs that are EXTREMELY DA or even just plain aggressive.

People who breed dogs for fighting purposes are not going to take any of the necessary precautions for training these dogs not to be DA.

My friend has a pit bull mastiff mix that I am babysitting right now, and he was REALLY good with other dogs because she took those precautions, all up until someone else's dog picked a fight with him. Ever since then, he's been on edge around other dogs. With some work, however, he's doing better, and with even more work, I'm sure we can train this out of him again, but my point is that certain things in a dog's life can have HUGE effects on them, either negative or positive.​


----------



## DaneMama

You lost me at the first sentence in your post 

Now you are getting into a nature vs nurture debate, so you think that DA is only genetic? 

I betcha you can take a perfectly cuddly, lovable and dog friendly dog and turn it into a perfect dog fighting dog. WHY? Because DA is NOT just genetic. 

There can be aggressive predisposition for it for sure, especially in some bully breeds. But to say that DA cannot be "taken out" of a dog is just negligent to the truth, because it sure can be. I've seen it happen.

***Not that I suggest anyone do this to a perfectly normal dog, because that would just be cruel***

Temperament is dependent on a few things...genetics and environment.


----------



## CorgiPaws

-sigh- here we go.



mstngchic2012 said:


> Dog aggression (DA) is a genetic issue. It is part of their temperament which is genetic.


Dog aggression can come from a lot of different things. Lack of proper socialization is generally the issue. Also, negative traumatic experiences with other dogs can CAUSE dog aggression. Something that has many CAUSES can not be labeled solely genetic. 
Dare I ask if you would put a pit to sleep for being friendly to other dogs?




mstngchic2012 said:


> It CANNOT be trained out or socialized out of a dog but it can be dealt with through lots of training.


Holy crap! I did the impossible!! 
It can be trained out, just like a dog aggressive to people can be taught to trust people again, a dog fearful, and therefore aggressive, to other dogs can be trained and taught just the same. 



mstngchic2012 said:


> And yes, bull breeds are different because they were and still are bred for fighting.


Actually plenty of ethical breeders are breeding for companionship, and they have wonderful temperments. 
Heck, Boxers were originally bred to hunt bears, wild boar, and deer.... **stares at annie... stares back at the screen*** 
yeah.... right. 




mstngchic2012 said:


> I am in no way praising dog fighter but a true breeder of fighting bulls will breed for DA.


A breeder breeding for aggression is unethical, I don't care what breed it is. Breeding for the purpose of fighting is unethical, no matter how you want to look at it. 




mstngchic2012 said:


> Many responsible breeders who trying to better the breed are really trying to breed out the DA through very selective breeding but they are so few and far between that it isn't making a dent in the bull breeds tendencies to be DA.


I've seen a HUGE dent. Working in daycare, I've met MANY MANY MANY wonderful bully breeds with EXCELLENT temperments. Again, Boxers have a history of being bred as attack and guard dogs, and yet, the modern day boxer is dubbed one of the better family pets.


----------



## CorgiPaws

xxshaelxx said:


> Are you going to say that Cesar Millan hasn't worked wonders with DA dogs? If you've never seen his show, maybe you should, because he has really worked wonders with dogs that are just plain uncontrollable, dogs that are EXTREMELY DA or even just plain aggressive.


*
Slightly off topic:* Cesar Millan is a quack.


----------



## DaneMama

^^^ Agreed. CM is a fraud and a hack.


----------



## mstngchic2012

Please re-read my statement. * I said that it CAN be dealt with through lots of training.* But a dog who is truly DA (like my dog) will always be DA. He is learning how to be around other dogs on a leash. However, I will never fully trust him with other dogs, it is something that I will never risk.

Yes, a dog can be made DA. But a true, successful pit dog is not made or forced to be DA and don't need a "bait dog" to build their confidence to fight another dog.

**Please note that I am NOT promoting fighting, I have done research and talked to "old timers" that are involved in the breeds**


----------



## xxshaelxx

Really?  Mind enlightening me? :biggrin:​


----------



## CorgiPaws

mstngchic2012 said:


> Please re-read my statement. * I said that it CAN be dealt with through lots of training.* But a dog who is truly DA (like my dog) will always be DA.


Champ used to lunge at any dog that approached him. He's attacked several. He's actually done a bit of damage. I'd say he was DEFINATELY "truely" dog aggressive. 
Now he goes to daycare all the time. He's perfect. He is actually the dog used to evaluate other dogs. Imagine that! I'd say he's pretty "fixed" and he's a excellent communicator. 



mstngchic2012 said:


> However, I will never fully trust him with other dogs, it is something that I will never risk.


Perhaps your own anxiety is holding him back?



mstngchic2012 said:


> Yes, a dog can be made DA. But a true, successful pit dog is not made or forced to be DA and don't need a "bait dog" to build their confidence to fight another dog.


So a pit is only successful if they are dog aggressive? Hmm. Odd, odd outlook on what makes up "ethical" breeding.


----------



## CorgiPaws

xxshaelxx said:


> Really?  Mind enlightening me? :biggrin:​


Check out this older thread on Cesar Milan. 
http://dogfoodchat.com/forum/dog-training/2201-if-you-havent-seen-already.html

You can also do a google search and find all kinds of stuff. 
granted, I don't believe everything I read online... but... well, just look for yourself a bit.


----------



## xxshaelxx

The videos have all been deleted, so I can't see them, but wow...

Thank you for showing me that, Corgi! I think I'll just stick with my personal opinions from people who have first hand experience, from my buds on DFC! XD <333​


----------



## DaneMama

Videos of Cesar get pulled off of YouTube all the time for copyright reasons...and the fact that the producers don't want people to know that he is a hack.

There is an anti Cesar Milan page on facebook that we are members of so we get all the dirt on him LOL

Anti-Cesar Millan | Facebook

Videos: 

Anti-Cesar Millan | Facebook


----------



## RawFedDogs

Cesar Millan is an actor. "Dog Whisperer" is a TV show. It is made for the entertainment of the viewers. It is not real. CM is a mediocre trainer. He doesn't do anything 10,000 other dog trainers don't do every day. There is enough truth in what he says to make it believable but there is a lot of BS put in for entertainment value. 

I was a professional dog trainer for 15 years. I know a good trainer when I see one and he's not it. Again, it's a TV show. And don't forget, it's a TV show created for entertainment and nothing else. Did I mention its a TV show? :smile:


----------



## harrkim120

One big thing to keep in mind is that the dogs listen to him so well because he's not the owner. They don't have any previous impressions of him. Any dog will be less likely to act up with a stranger, even dogs that act aggressive towards him. Basically he develops a fear in them and then works off of that.

It happens to me all the time. I'll have someone in class who's dog is just totally not listening to them, yet I can take the dog and it's an angel. It's because I'm a stranger, and the dog has no idea what I'm like. However, as soon as I return the dog, he's right back to his old ways. It's like when you have someone else babysit your kid...he might be a terror with you, but perfect with everyone else.

This is why Cesar looks so magical sometimes.


----------



## RCTRIPLEFRESH5

CorgiPaws said:


> Right. 3 months. Too young to be aggressive.
> 
> Puppies need pretty constant stimulation. Locking a dog away in the basement, especially that young, is begging for trouble.
> At least she's in a new home now.


its not to young if she was aggressive which she was. get your head out of the text book.

and that was a very rude comment. dpn't be disrespectful to me. maybe shed do good in a home like yours 


xxshaelxx said:


> I wouldn't take any better care of my dogs with less than two. In fact, they are better taken care of being in a larger group, because they have a lot more stimulation and a lot more exercise and a lot more attention. They don't get bored as easily when I'm too lazy to play with them, and they don't get anymore or any less attention than if there were less of them. All attention I give them is equal attention in their opinion.
> 
> By stating what you think about whether or not dogs would get better care in smaller groups, you are being kind of offensive. People can, and WILL take that the wrong way, because, even if you're not saying we're negligent, you ARE implying that our dogs are not as happy and would be happier if we had just one. We don't just treat our dogs "fine." Especially on this forum, we treat our dogs like royalty.
> 
> Even Kuso, who I started out not really liking, who has had issues in this family, gets treated like royalty. I play with him, give him all kinds of attention, hand feed him, work with him, and love him just as much, and you can already tell how attached he is to us. I mean, he didn't follow around my friend when she came over the other day like he does Adam and I.
> 
> Siberian Huskies are not loyal dogs, and it says so on every little thing I've ever read about them. Yet my Sibes are MY dogs. They don't listen to my husband or anyone else, they look to me in situations where they don't know what to do, and they get just as excited when I come home as they do when anyone else comes through that door.​


well i know for me,i feel better knowing i give all my attention to shane. but if you can devote all your time to more than one dog, then im glad its working for you.

im curious,what made you decide on huskies? you seem to really like them? i have heard they are not loyal. something big with me is loyalty. i want my dog to love me and my family most. goldens love everybody, but i could atleast count on him loving me most. sibs don't like to be in homes, they just wanna run run.


----------



## jdatwood

RCTRIPLEFRESH5 said:


> sibs don't like to be in homes, they just wanna run run.


And you know this from experience right?


----------



## RCTRIPLEFRESH5

jdatwood said:


> And you know this from experience right?


actually yes, i know quite a few sib owners. not the most loyal dogs. assumptions my friend =p. they are not always corect.

plus she agreed they arent the most loyal. i am just curious what she likes so much about them, im not saying they are a bad breed,just one tht i am not most fond of. its kind of like malteses, im sure they are great dogs, but not for me. im more into goldens,bernese mountain dogs, newfoundlands,mastiffs, and even great danes.


----------



## malluver1005

RCTRIPLEFRESH5 said:


> i have heard they are not loyal. something big with me is loyalty. i want my dog to love me and my family most. goldens love everybody, but i could atleast count on him loving me most. sibs don't like to be in homes, they just wanna run run.


Every sibe is different. I can't even tell you how many sibes I've met in daycare that were as loyal as a dog can get. All sibes love their owners and family and will protect them no matter what. They just don't show it because they are a more independent and stubborn breed. Most nordic breeds are. Heck, I've met goldens and labs that are the opposite of loyal. All dogs are different...

*ETA:* Sibes love to be indoors just as much as they like the outdoors. And yes, they do like to run...


----------



## kevin bradley

malluver1005 said:


> Every sibe is different. I can't even tell you how many sibes I've met in daycare that were as loyal as a dog can get. All sibes love their owners and family and will protect them no matter what. They just don't show it because they are a more independent and stubborn breed. Most nordic breeds are. Heck, I've met goldens and labs that are the opposite of loyal. All dogs are different...


Said perfectly.

I hate breed specific conversations...IE-"this breed is this way, this breed is that way..."

I've got a Chow mix who is the most loving, snuggle up to you every night dog I've ever been around. My little Beagle will use him as a warmer in the winter time and burrow up against his belly on the couch. 

But Chows are snippy...supposedly :wink:


----------



## xxshaelxx

RCTRIPLEFRESH5 said:


> im curious,what made you decide on huskies? you seem to really like them? i have heard they are not loyal. something big with me is loyalty. i want my dog to love me and my family most. goldens love everybody, but i could atleast count on him loving me most. sibs don't like to be in homes, they just wanna run run.


I decided on Sibes because I love the breed. Loyalty isn't something I look for in dogs. I want a dog that is going to want to play with everyone, and that's what Sibes are. Not only that, as I said in an earlier post, my dogs ARE loyal to ME. They won't listen to Adam, they won't listen to anyone else, yet when I give them commands or ask something of them, they do it. Sibes are loyal, they just show it in a different way. It may SEEM as though they love strangers more than me sometimes, but when it comes down to it, they don't, and I can tell this in the fact that my dogs want to lay next to me when there are other people in the house.

You're going to sit here and tell me that Sibes don't want to be in homes? Well, my dogs love it. Sure, they love to run, they love to play, but you should see my dogs sit by the backdoor waiting to come in. Even Amaya will want to come in. She will refuse to at first, but when she realizes that she's out there all alone, she wants in. Heck, she'll jump into my arms when I lean out the window just so I pick her up and bring her in. Sibes love to be with the family more than they love to run. When Amaya got loose and wouldn't come back to me, I went all over the neighborhood looking for her, but she went no further than around the corner, and when she was ready to come home, that's exactly what she did. When I get out of the car with my dogs, I don't use leashes, because they run right for the door wagging their tails and waiting for me to open the door. 

Everything you read about certain breeds is the most extreme case of things, just to warn you in case the worse comes to worst. I read ALL of that before deciding to get a Sibe, and it made me want them even more. I love their energy, their happiness, their stubbornness, their appearance and size, etc.

By the way, ever wonder that maybe your friends with Sibes just haven't raised them right? -.-​


----------



## malluver1005

xxshaelxx said:


> Heck, she'll jump into my arms when I lean out the window just so I pick her up and bring her in.


^^This is the only thing that is a NO NO with my mal LOL!! Everything else you said is the same!!


----------



## kevin bradley

Ironic. 

Forgot to mention this...was over at my Grandmother's house this past weekend to drop off her taxes. Neighbor had a Husky. That had to be one of the friendliest, wanting to be by you Dogs I've ever seen(outside of my Beagle Itty Bitty). 

Guys, these breed discussions are crazy. I do think some breeds have certain tendencies, but honestly...(aside from the fact that all my Dogs are mutts pretty much).....I saw a statistic that showed Labs as one of the leading bite incident breeds. Crazy, I know. I'm sure it has to do w/ the fact that Labs are so prevalent.


----------



## xxshaelxx

malluver1005 said:


> ^^This is the only thing that is a NO NO with my mal LOL!! Everything else you said is the same!!


haha. Well, 32 lb dog versus 120 lb dog. Yeah...I think that would be a no no with me as well. XDDDD Then again, I wouldn't be offering, which I do with Amaya.​


----------



## whiteleo

Actually, one of the most bite prevalent dogs is the dachshund, that came from one of the workers at the humane society, they get bit by these dogs quits often, and children do to they just don't report it because they figure it's a small dog, no harm done. I also have proof on my right inside thigh, unprovoked attack by my newphews rescue, still have a very nice scar, I was 10ft across the room and stood up from the couch, thats all it took. Needless to say they finally sent him to a breed specific rescue because he was starting to be aggressive with their son.


----------



## CorgiPaws

RCTRIPLEFRESH5 said:


> its not to young if she was aggressive which she was. get your head out of the text book.


Don't beg for respect right after being disrespectful. It makes no sense.
You even sent me a VIDEO of her, and there was absolutely no aggression whatsoever. 99.9% of "aggression" that young is really a result of misinterpreting canine behavior. A truely aggressive would not have been cuddly and sweet, like she was in the video. 
My head is in no text book, silly. 



RCTRIPLEFRESH5 said:


> and that was a very rude comment. dpn't be disrespectful to me. maybe shed do good in a home like yours


I call it like I see it. I was not disrespectful. Trust me, saying what I REALLY think in response to the post would have qualified as disrespect. I toned it down. :wink:
She probably would have done great in my home. I'd have given her love and attention and proper training. I'd never have locked her in my basement because little 3 month old pup might someday long down the road hurt poor defenseledd adult large breed male.  She was a BABY. SHe needed training and guidence. 


No matter how you want to look at it. locking a 3 month old puppy in a basement by herself is cruel. If saying so makes me "disrespectful" to YOU... I can live with that.


----------



## RCTRIPLEFRESH5

CorgiPaws said:


> Don't beg for respect right after being disrespectful. It makes no sense.
> You even sent me a VIDEO of her, and there was absolutely no aggression whatsoever. 99.9% of "aggression" that young is really a result of misinterpreting canine behavior. A truely aggressive would not have been cuddly and sweet, like she was in the video.
> My head is in no text book, silly.
> 
> 
> I call it like I see it. I was not disrespectful. Trust me, saying what I REALLY think in response to the post would have qualified as disrespect. I toned it down. :wink:
> She probably would have done great in my home. I'd have given her love and attention and proper training. I'd never have locked her in my basement because little 3 month old pup might someday long down the road hurt poor defenseledd adult large breed male.  She was a BABY. SHe needed training and guidence.
> 
> 
> No matter how you want to look at it. locking a 3 month old puppy in a basement by herself is cruel. If saying so makes me "disrespectful" to YOU... I can live with that.


she was aggressive, and i even said in the video she was being nice . she was food aggressive and dog aggressive, idc if you think she was to young, and i wont fight about it, but she was aggressive at times, and i dint like that. ive owned my share of puppies and although she was quite the little genius,she was aggressive at times!
im not begging for respect, but im telling you if you want it from me(which youve said you did, then youre gonna have to stop being so uptight)

also she wasnt even my dog. my dumbass sister went and bought a rottweiler puppy,not me. we were nice enough to take it in. it kept lunging at shane and i didnt like it, i dont care what you would have done. she stayed in her crate, for nightime, and a few hours i nthe day, i took her out around 5 times a day to play with her and let her go potty, but she stayed there most of the day. i didnt want a puppy. and if you wanted her iwouldnt have let yah have him, people who are rude to humans, usually re also rude to their animal!
(bet youll say something about me =p)''silly'':tongue:


----------



## jdatwood

RCTRIPLEFRESH5 said:


> ive owned my share of puppies


You're like 19.. where are all of these dogs you've "owned"??? 

I think you like hearing yourself talk almost as much as you like watching yourself workout alone in your basement


----------



## RCTRIPLEFRESH5

im almost 21. ive owned a few pups in my time. lindsay is 20.


----------



## jdatwood

RCTRIPLEFRESH5 said:


> im almost 21. ive owned a few pups in my time. lindsay is 20.


Linsey didn't just sit here and boast that she's owned LOTS of puppies. Plus she would NEVER lock a puppy in the basement for just being a puppy (ie. aggressive according to you)

I'm curious... since dogs live 8-15 years, what happened to all of these puppies you've owned?

Kids like you piss me off. You abuse a puppy because he was "aggressive". You claim you've owned a bunch of puppies yet only own 1 dog right now (and are against multi dog homes).

I wish you'd stop posting for the sake of reading your own garbage


----------



## CorgiPaws

RCTRIPLEFRESH5 said:


> im almost 21. ive owned a few pups in my time. lindsay is 20.


Linsey* is in fact 20. So are you. (Almost 21 means you're 20) Though, I'm curious, what the heck does how old* I* am have to do with someone questioning how many dogs *you've *raised?_ Please keep me out of your posts that are unrelated to myself_. 

I also have four dogs at a time, you have one. (poor, defenseless shane might be sad if you had more than one)

I also didn't claim to have had LOTS of puppies. I've only had five of my own. My family doesn't like dogs, so I only had one growing up until I moved out. That is no reflection of my excerience, though. I've been working in the animal industry for about five years, and volunteering in shelters for over seven years. 

I also am curious, where are all these puppies now? Or were they all locked in the basement and then resold??


----------



## DaneMama

The way I see it, age is not just the number of years you've been alive, but how old you act. If you act like an adult then you're perceived as an adult and vice versa. It's also about the knowledge and experience one gathers from living life and what you do with it.


----------



## RawFedDogs

You are all kids and are acting like kids nitpicking about a few years one way or the other. Find something important to argue about.


----------



## DaneMama

RawFedDogs said:


> You are all kids and are acting like kids nitpicking about a few years one way or the other. Find something important to argue about.


Personally, I really enjoy my youth :wink:


----------



## xxshaelxx

RCTRIPLEFRESH5 said:


> and if you wanted her iwouldnt have let yah have him, people who are rude to humans, usually re also rude to their animal!


I'm sorry, but I have to say this, because you have said your own fair share of rude stuff on this forum...

If humans who are rude to other humans are rude to dogs as well, then I feel bad for Shane.

Back to the topic at hand, I am 23, therefore making me older than you. I must have owned TWICE as many pups as you if you're a few months older than Linsey! Therefore, I MUST have more experience than you with puppies! I mean, I've raised two in the past seven months! And now I'm raising another one, one that DOES show aggressive tenancies towards other dogs and people. Well, guess what? With just a LITTLE bit of work, he is shaping up a LOT. With just a LITTLE bit of correction, he is doing a LOT better. Why? Because he is a PUPPY. 

Puppies are VERY impressionable. That is why all the puppy guides out there tell you to never hit a young puppy because it will effect them dramatically. But even if you do, with some work and positive reinforcement, they will forgive and realize that you didn't mean it. That is why it is easy to train DA puppies. Even older dogs are a fair bit of impressionable and can be trained out of DA, people aggression, food aggression. I mean, HECK, Kuso is no longer food aggressive, because he's realized that he has to DO something for ME in order to get a small piece of food, because I have been cutting it up and making him lay down and wait for it until I give him the okay. Ever since that first time he showed food aggressions towards me, I haven't had a SINGLE problem with it, because I've been working on it.

So before you come on here and try to tell us that we're all wrong, disrespect us, compare ages, and all of that bull crap, remember to think about what you're writing, because half of it is ten times more rude than what we say, and what we say is only a provocation of what you have said.​


----------



## CorgiPaws

RawFedDogs said:


> You are all kids and are acting like kids nitpicking about a few years one way or the other. Find something important to argue about.


I was just confused as to why my name got pulled into a part of a discussion I had nothing to do with. 
We're not really arguing about age anyway, RCTRIPLEFRESH5 is claiming to have has a lot of puppies, and we're just doing simple math. Where are all these puppies now?? ... he's not old enough to have had a few dogs live out their lives with him, and he only has one dog now.... that's where age even entered the discussion, not a matter of who is older than who. :wink:

I'm *pretty* sure I'm the youngest person on this forum, currently... and I'm ok with that. :biggrin:


----------



## magicre

xxshaelxx said:


> With just a LITTLE bit of work, he is shaping up a LOT. With just a LITTLE bit of correction, he is doing a LOT better. Why? Because he is a PUPPY.
> 
> I mean, HECK, Kuso is no longer food aggressive, because he's realized that he has to DO something for ME in order to get a small piece of food, because I have been cutting it up and making him lay down and wait for it until I give him the okay. Ever since that first time he showed food aggressions towards me, I haven't had a SINGLE problem with it, because I've been working on it.​


i'm glad to hear you're going to keep kuso.....putting this discussion back on track....what else are you doing with kuso?

i know how you feel, by the way, except my almost nemesis is named bubba and he was two when we rescued him.....seattle pug rescue was on speed dial the first three months we had him. LOL

now, of course, he's on his way to becoming a real dog....

with a little patience and a few cosmopolitans (those are for me), bubba will, one day, be a wonderfully rehabbed pug.


----------



## xxshaelxx

magicre said:


> i'm glad to hear you're going to keep kuso.....putting this discussion back on track....what else are you doing with kuso?


Well, we've been working with him with my friend's bigger dog, who he seems to get aggressive with the most. So if he actually does snap, he gets corrected by another dog who knows how to do it better than me. If he starts to get too rough with Amaya and Ryou, then I'll say his name firmly and tell him "No." He gets two chances, then I'll stick him in a small time-out area we've made for him for a few moments until he's settled down and doesn't freak out when I walk away for a few seconds. The first time, he stayed in there until he jumped out and then got scolded for jumping out, and that was for about five minutes because he wouldn't shut up. Then the second time he was in there for about thirty seconds. 

Other than that, he's doing really well. I think the first day of holding his mouth when he bit us really worked, because he hasn't bit us since. Not only that, but Ryou and him have been playing a LOT more, and he'll get mouthy, but it's more of a whining, playful, yappy barking, rather than the angry, loud, mean growling/barking. He seems to reserve that for Havok.



magicre said:


> with a little patience and a few cosmopolitans (those are for me), bubba will, one day, be a wonderfully rehabbed pug.


I know what you're saying! haha. I had another friend over yesterday when Kuso was playing with Havok, and my friend ended up saying "I'm going to need some tylonol after this." haha. I can see where Cosmos would work as well. :wink:


----------



## Khan

The dog trainer we go to has "play dates" every month at her place. It's really nice because there is a waaay more controlled atmosphere than the dog park; but the dogs get to run, play, rough house, you name it. Anyway, the reason why I'm bringing this up is because she uses one of those air horns, you know the kind in a can. Anyway, she uses that if one of the dogs starts getting over stimulated. This short burst of loud noise is just enough to make the dogs look up and loose focus on what they were doing. It allows you to move in and split up dogs giving them a "time out". This might be something to think about, doesn't hurt the dog, yet allows them to play and be dogs, just not out of control dogs. She also uses bitter apple. She will spray bitter apple at the dog who is playing too rough, it doesn't hurt them; but again allows you the same results. 
If I sound like I know alot about this, it's because Khan was one of the trouble makers last month  There was one dog, that he singled out, after a couple air horn burst, the rest of the day he left that dog alone. 
He is only 8 months old, so he is just starting to have good manners. Remember puppies don't know boundaries, or how to stay out of the other dogs space.
Good luck, and keep up the great work and progress!!


----------



## magicre

the one problem i can't seem to get bubba to stop doing is when he gets overexcited and he nips....he's a pug, so he can't do much damage..but it's annoying when we're walking and he jumps and nips stranger's hands....not hard, but you can see the intent.

and if i'm on the floor he'll try to nip my nose....


i don't like the idea of spraying anything into a dog's face, although i guess water would be cool. thing is, i don't always carry a water bottle with me...

so how do i cure piranha mouth.....he's really coming along and i'm very proud of his progress from a wild animal to the almost joy he is now.... -- it's only been six months and it wasn't until we got him that he was taught any manners whatsoever.


----------



## RawFedDogs

magicre said:


> the one problem i can't seem to get bubba to stop doing is when he gets overexcited and he nips....he's a pug, so he can't do much damage..but it's annoying when we're walking and he jumps and nips stranger's hands....not hard, but you can see the intent.


I assume you have him on a leash. Don't give him the opportunity to jump or nip someone else. Don't let him close enough. He will soon learn to control himself.



> and if i'm on the floor he'll try to nip my nose....


When he uses his mouth inappropriately on you, get up and walk away. Don't say anything. Ignore him for a couple of minutes then go back to playing with him. When it happens again, use the same procedure. He will soon learn what causes play to stop. You must get up and walk away INSTANTLY when his mouth touches you in an inappropriate way. If you delay 2 or 3 seconds, you have missed your teaching opportunity. Never let him get away with mouthing you inappropriately or you will loose what progress you have already made.


----------



## magicre

> I assume you have him on a leash. Don't give him the opportunity to jump or nip someone else. Don't let him close enough. He will soon learn to control himself.


yep. he's on a leash and when he displays poor manners in the home, he is on a leash too....i believe in tethering....he's not thrilled with it because it means he is now obligated to be where i am at all times....



> When he uses his mouth inappropriately on you, get up and walk away. Don't say anything. Ignore him for a couple of minutes then go back to playing with him. When it happens again, use the same procedure. He will soon learn what causes play to stop. You must get up and walk away INSTANTLY when his mouth touches you in an inappropriate way. If you delay 2 or 3 seconds, you have missed your teaching opportunity. Never let him get away with mouthing you inappropriately or you will loose what progress you have already made.


sounds like a good idea. i admit i've been a little lax in that area, when it should be top of the list.

there is so much to do with this dog....sometimes it's hard to prioritise, but that is number one....

never realised that rehabbing a two year old would be harder than training a puppy.....

course, a puppy has a cleanish slate, whereas this pug had absolutely NO manners in ANY area of his life.

thanks


----------

