# What would cause wobbliness and loss of balance in litter mates? Please watch video!



## Sheltielover25 (Jan 18, 2011)

I adopted a pregnant dog unknowingly. I took her to the vet two days later, when she would have been one month pregnant, and she was given a check up and shots, including her rabies. About four weeks after that, she went into labor surprisingly and deliver five puppies. She's a sheltie and we believe the puppies are sheltie/poodle. I ended up keeping two and I'm in touch weekly with the other puppies. My girl puppy, Lily, had a seizure-like episode when she was three months old (three weeks after her second set of shots) What happened was she was very wobbly and disoriented. We thought perhaps she could have ingested something like tobacco on our walk that evening and immediately induced vomiting (nothing in vomit) and rushed her to the emergency vet where they also induced vomiting with charcoal. We brought her home and she was still very lethargic but fine the next day. Then three weeks after her last set of shots it happened again. This time we took her to the vet the next day and they did blood work and nothing came back abnormal. He said seizures or liver shunt. She had a cluster of three days in a row a few days after that. We switched her to raw and stopped all flea medicine and heartworm medicine. She has had one mild episode since then and this was in January. We had gone to a state park for a few hours and then when we came home her balance was off. She snapped out of it within 30 minutes and was back to normal.

We noticed about a month ago one night that her brother, theo, was wobbly! his head was bobbling all around, but he was laying down so I don't know about his hind legs. Well this morning I woke up and was doing some homework for a couple hours and they were all inside, right in front of me asleep. I ran to the store for 15 minutes and when I came home I noticed he didn't greet me. I walked over to him and he was lying there very wobbly and had urinated on himself. I immediately sat him up on his feet and his hind legs and front legs were just swaying back and forth and it appeared like his brain couldn't communicate with his arms/legs to move. He would stand there wobbly and then attempt to walk after a few seconds and either sway side-to-side or slide down like he was doing the splits. He was also dribbling pee all over the floor. We rushed him to the vet and dropped him off there. They induced vomiting thinking he had gotten into something, although I explained he had been with me, in front of me all morning, so I knew he hadn't. Nothing came out in the vomit and they aren't sure where to go from here. They want to do liver shunt testing but he doesn't have any other signs and he was still unsteady and unable to balance after inducing vomiting. He's not smaller than his litter mates nor is lethargic normally. His sister is actually the second biggest so again I don't think liver shunt. It's not his ears, either. 

I'm posting a video and would greatly appreciate any suggestions. 

VID_20110509_134857.mp4 video by maddy_ciccone18 - Photobucket


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## Tobi (Mar 18, 2011)

Wow, i've never seen anything like that, I'm very sorry that he is sick, i hope the best come for him, Sending some good vibes your way! Hopefully somebody has seen this before and could shed a little light...


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## Sheltielover25 (Jan 18, 2011)

Tobi said:


> Wow, i've never seen anything like that, I'm very sorry that he is sick, i hope the best come for him, Sending some good vibes your way! Hopefully somebody has seen this before and could shed a little light...


Thanks. It's so scary and horrible as it's affecting both my puppies. The mother has never displayed any symptoms and we asked the other owners of the puppies and they haven't noticed. They do work full-time away from home so they could be missing it since sometimes they are brief. I just don't know what to do when your vet tells you he has no idea and doesn't know how to proceed. 

I should also add that we've moved since this started happening so we can rule that out and also we don't use any cleaners other than vinegar. I did apply his flea medicine last night for the first time in months. Although he's had it before, frontline, he hadn't had it in a few months. I had to get his sister her rabies shot this weekend also so will be curious to see if anything comes of it. I didn't want to do it but the vet wouldn't see her anymore without it. Also we foster animals occasionally and they wouldn't allow us to do this anymore until everyone was vaccinated.


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## Tobi (Mar 18, 2011)

I understand your worry, i would be devastated if it was mine... I often have a hard time sleeping so i figured i would look to see what i could find. I've never heard of this but i found this can be somewhat common, and onset can be sudden. I don't want to cause panic by any means but it could be something like this, Idopathic Vestibular disease, here is a link about this. i hope it helps a little bit... 
Vestibular Disease

just a small excerpt from the link i provided.
IDIOPATHIC DISEASE

Canine idiopathic vestibular disease (also called "Old dog vestibular disease") and, its feline counterpart, feline idiopathic vestibular disease, begin acutely and resolve acutely. Usually improvement is evident in 72 hours and ]the animal is normal in 7-14 days, possibly with an occasional head tilt persisting. When a case of vestibular disease presents, it may be a good idea to wait a few days to see if improvement occurs before doing diagnostics beyond a routine blood/urine database. These two conditions are idiopathic, meaning we do not know why they occur. We do know that they represent problems in the periphery (nerves of the middle ear rather than in the actual brain.)

Treatment of idiopathic vestibular disease generally involves control of nausea (motions sickness) while the condition runs its (relatively short) course.


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## RawFedDogs (Jun 16, 2008)

It plainly says on the vaccine bottle that the vaccine is only to be given to healthy dogs. Your dogs obviously aren't healthy. I would find another vet immediately. I would not give them ANY vaccines until you know more about what is going on. I strongly suspect as I think you do that this is vaccine caused.


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## FL Cracker (May 4, 2011)

Orthostatic hypotention...secondary to dehydration..... Cardiac anomaly.... stated above problem....and numerous other problems that a good vet should be able to diagnose.... I would certainly look for a different vet.....today.
Good luck with getting this figured out...poor pooch....looks dazed and confused.


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## Sheltielover25 (Jan 18, 2011)

The one who is having issues now hasn't had a vaccine recently, but yes, the one who has had seizures or whatever these things are, did get her rabies. I kept telling the vet I was relucntant and they basically said it's illegal for me not to get it. Like I said, if in three weeks or so she has issues then it will certainly look like it has something to do with that. I also worry about the fact that the mother had her vaccinations when she was pregnant. Do you think that could have caused issues? It's just odd both of them are having these spells.


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## Sheltielover25 (Jan 18, 2011)

Tobi said:


> I understand your worry, i would be devastated if it was mine... I often have a hard time sleeping so i figured i would look to see what i could find. I've never heard of this but i found this can be somewhat common, and onset can be sudden. I don't want to cause panic by any means but it could be something like this, Idopathic Vestibular disease, here is a link about this. i hope it helps a little bit...
> Vestibular Disease
> 
> just a small excerpt from the link i provided.
> ...


I actually asked him about this and he said they wouldn't snap in and out of it if this were the issue. he said he sees dogs like this frequently and my dog isn't one of those cases. We are calling around to other vets for sure and sending the video out to them. He does seem better this morning. Not wobbly and more alert...


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## RachelsaurusRexU (Sep 4, 2010)

I wouldn't use the frontline or any other chemicals while this is being sorted out. Even if the Frontline didn't cause it (a lot of dogs have terrible reactions to that stuff, some as severe as death) I would imagine that putting those chemicals on an otherwise ill or compromised dog could potentially be pretty detrimental.


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## BrownieM (Aug 30, 2010)

Sheltielover25 said:


> I also worry about the fact that the mother had her vaccinations when she was pregnant. Do you think that could have caused issues? It's just odd both of them are having these spells.


I do think that mother having vaccations when pregnant could be the cause, although this is purely suspicion.


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## 3Musketeers (Nov 4, 2010)

Maybe he was starting at a mild seizure.
My Patchie had a similar attack, and another close call back when she was on kibble, my grandma's pup had them a few times and it ended up being caused by caffeine, she used to give him coffee -__-.
Except my Patchie lost disorientation of one side only, like a one sided-wobble.

I'd stop all vaccines and medications first, if it continues then it's easier to rule out at least.


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## Sheltielover25 (Jan 18, 2011)

3Musketeers said:


> Maybe he was starting at a mild seizure.
> My Patchie had a similar attack, and another close call back when she was on kibble, my grandma's pup had them a few times and it ended up being caused by caffeine, she used to give him coffee -__-.
> Except my Patchie lost disorientation of one side only, like a one sided-wobble.
> 
> I'd stop all vaccines and medications first, if it continues then it's easier to rule out at least.


Yeah he hasn't had any shots in four months, eats a raw diet, and had been off all medications for the last three months. All the vets I've talked to say seizures are super rare in puppies and for it to be happening to two puppies is even crazier. Also I'm with my dogs a ton-- work from home and all that so I just feel like since this has happened a total of 8 times between the two I would have seen an actually seizure. I've been with them almost every time these symptoms have set in and nothing led up to it. They just comeon.


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## Sheltielover25 (Jan 18, 2011)

I did some research on the affects of pregnant bitches getting modified live vaccines when pregnant and found out that Cerebellar Ataxia is linked to vaccines in puppies who are very young. The symptoms match up. Is anyone familiar with this?


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## Pimzilla (May 1, 2011)

I came across a webpage with some articles about mostly dog training recently but also about vaccinosis. There is nothing specific on there but thought that you might want to read it. 
http://leerburg.com/pdf/vaccinosis.pdf

The first thing that came to mind reading this was that I would have stopped all vaccinations and flea/worming medication immediately after the first symptoms. I really feel for you, I would be totally devestated if it were my puppis :sad:
I really hope they will get better.


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## Sheltielover25 (Jan 18, 2011)

Pimzilla said:


> I came across a webpage with some articles about mostly dog training recently but also about vaccinosis. There is nothing specific on there but thought that you might want to read it.
> http://leerburg.com/pdf/vaccinosis.pdf
> 
> The first thing that came to mind reading this was that I would have stopped all vaccinations and flea/worming medication immediately after the first symptoms. I really feel for you, I would be totally devestated if it were my puppis :sad:
> I really hope they will get better.


Thanks so much. I've been to that website and it's great! I think I will post a similar query on their forum. The reason I vaccinated Lily again was because when it first happened we thought she had eaten something like a cigarette and that's what happened. I did do the rabies recently but my vet refused to treat her anymore until she had it as do most vets in this area. I tried everything for the fleas-- diatamcious earth, vinegar, natural herbs and such but nothing kept them away. They were infested. I suppose it has somethign to do with the area b/c I met a friend in CT who never has fleas, but her in Texas I can't keep them away. I guess for future reference what should I do for fleas?


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## tem_sat (Jun 20, 2010)

For fleas, to avoid using topicals, you may want to try Capstar. It is over the counter and can be purchased online. I would try 1 Capstar and wait a few days to a week and then give another one. Make sure to have the house professionally treated at the same time. If you still see fleas after 2 weeks, give one more Capstar. Capstar will not kill the eggs or larvae, but will immediately kill all the adults and only stays in the system for a short time. I would suggest checking with your vet first to make sure he is ok with this.


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