# Dogs with kidney issues and raw



## monkeys23 (Dec 8, 2010)

So I saw someone post something somewhere warning that basically raw and/or high quality grain free kibble were probably the scapegoats for her dog's kidney issues.

I just can't buy this crap because 1. prey model raw is not really that high protien given the water content and 2. NOTHING is better than a biologically appropriate diet. Basically I would like to hear from people who've experienced dogs with kidney issues and if raw helped or what the resident vet techs who raw feed think of this.

Personally I think a combination of stress on the system by feeding things that digest so differently and possibly strain on the kidneys from not enough water in the system could be contributing factors to something like that. However this is not the first time I've heard someone scapegoat high end kibble for kidney issues, but the last person I heard say that was very pro raw and this person is not.

I'm just curious to hear what people with more experience in the subject think/know.


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## ciaBrysh (Dec 16, 2011)

I always believed that raw was a high protein diet. Is that not the case? I found the post interesting myself...but I also believe that there are many other ways around it other than feeding kibble!


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

feeding raw is what, approximately 20 - 22 %

i don't know how that translates with kibble, but like humans, animals are 60-70% water...


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## ciaBrysh (Dec 16, 2011)

Personally, if I were in such a situation, if I knew my dogs had kidney issues or anything of the like...I would check with my holistic vet (or any pro-raw vet around here...which there isn't) to see what they thought about the change.
I would think if your dog has any health issues, your best bet would be to talk to your vet that is pro-raw and do any other research first. However, that is just me. I am not a vet, or a long-time raw feeder lol


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## monkeys23 (Dec 8, 2010)

Okay, I'm gonna be nerdy and look up what I normally feed on a weekly basis on the USDA database....

Beef heart: Show Foods
Beef tongue: Show Foods
Deer: Show Foods
Elk: Show Foods
Beef liver: Show Foods
Beef kidney: Show Foods
Beef green tripe: Show Foods
Sardines (packed in oil... thats all they had... I believe the label on the Primal Sardine Grind I used to use said 14% protien): Show Foods
Turkey neck and giblets (no seperate listing): Show Foods
Chicken parts: Show Foods
Duck: Show Foods
Rabbit (I don't feed rabbit, but only because I have no source): Show Foods
Lamb heart: Show Foods
Pork roast: Show Foods

So yeah, overall it looks like around 20-22% to me just from roughly looking at things. And the water content in real fresh food is IMO one of the most important parts.


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## Celt (Dec 27, 2010)

No real evidence, other than ancetdotal (sp?). But just last week i dehydrated 2.8 lbs of chicken breasts (boneless, skinless) and ended up with 10 oz of jerky. So i don't think that raw is all that high protein.


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## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

I really think dehydration is bad on the kidneys. When snorkels was on dry food, I could not keep her hydrated, even with soaking and putting water in her food AND she does drink water on her own. Yet she would get dehydrated to the point of going to the ER vet at least twice a month. her kidney values were never horrible, but the vet was concerned.

And part of that time she was on some senior dog low protein food.

With raw, she drinks about the same and I add water to her food but she hasn't been dehydrated once and her kidneys are just fine. I really don't know why. I thought she was getting plenty of water on dry food.


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## DaneMama (Jun 27, 2008)

The water content of meat, keeps the protein level around 20%. But the nutritional make up of meat and organ is almost nearly all protein when the water is taken away. So...its nearly a protein exclusive diet in regards to nutrients. But in regards to weight....its mostly water. 

Does this make sense?


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## CoverTune (Dec 20, 2011)

From my understanding, it's not so much the quantity of protein that's hard on the kidneys, it's the quality. It's late now, and I can't remember all the details of the research I was reading, but basically it's starting to be considered "old thinking" to feed a reduced protein diet to a dog (or cat) with kidney failure, instead it should be a moderate amount of high quality protein.


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## BeagleCountry (Jan 20, 2012)

The original research in regard to a high protein meat diet and organ failure was done with lab rats. Not a species appropriate diet for rats. For several decades the data was never questioned. It was taught in vet schools and preached by vets. Recent research related to dogs has shown the data is incorrect as meat is species appropriate. High protein does not cause the problem. For a dog that is challenged with kidney or liver problems purines in the meat is the culprit. A raw diet that focuses on white fish and chicken can be fed. Red meat is highest in purines. Kidney problems could be caused by anything from genetics to environment. A high meat protein grain free diet may no longer be appropriate but is highly unlikely to be the cause.


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## Khan (Jan 17, 2010)

A few months ago when we thought Shelby was going into kidney failure and could have permanent damage, I started researching the high vs low protein debate. Turns out that it's not the amount of protein as much as the TYPE of protein. Carbs are still not needed. You just need to stay away from certain items that make the kidney work harder.


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

Khan said:


> A few months ago when we thought Shelby was going into kidney failure and could have permanent damage, I started researching the high vs low protein debate. Turns out that it's not the amount of protein as much as the TYPE of protein. Carbs are still not needed. You just need to stay away from certain items that make the kidney work harder.


can you elaborate? i don't know as much as i would like......what kind of different protein would you not feed?


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## Georgeyporge (Dec 30, 2011)

My dog was diagnosed with cystine crystals, it's a hereditary kidney problem. Diet hasn't been proven to help in any way, but when doing my research I came across other types of kidney problems where diet did prove successful. For example one of them required low-purines so avoiding high purine...pigs liver/calfs liver etc as a protein type would be beneficial to that particular kidney problem. I agree with the quality of the protein being far more important than the actual %.


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## DaneMama (Jun 27, 2008)

magicre said:


> can you elaborate? i don't know as much as i would like......what kind of different protein would you not feed?


I think what Khan is talking about is feeding a dog plant based proteins vs animal based proteins. Plant based are harder for dogs to digest, thus making more work for the kidneys. Which is why raw feeding meat/bone/organ to kidney dogs is ideal since its ALL animal protein.


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## Roo (Oct 17, 2010)

After I switched to raw, my mom switched her two dogs, one of which was a 13 yr old lab with kidney issues. He did well on the first two months of Prey Model, but when they rechecked his kidney numbers, they were through the roof and mom had to adjust the diet. The bone, organ, and meat amounts as normally fed, were too high in phosphorus making his Creatine and BUN higher. Mom followed a home cooked kidney diet recipe recomended by her Holistic Vet, but fed most of the protein raw. Instead of bone, she fed ground up egg shell, a very very tiny amount of raw liver, raw beef, raw fish, raw chicken (all in limited amounts), lots of green tripe, lots of eggs/cooked egg whites, and she had to add sweet potato or sticky rice so he was getting enough food, because his protein amounts had to be more limited as he got worse. His numbers were better and stayed stable for a couple months once she adjusted his diet. He went down hill within 5 months of discovering he had kidney issues, so I'm sure he had some sort of cancer or something, it wasn't the raw diet, he had slight kidney issues before he started the diet when he was still on Wellness. In fact in the end, his kidney numbers were so high the vet told her that Copper should be dead and yet he was walking into the vets exam room all on his own, but he was staggering a bit. I think the diet helped to keep alive longer than if he had been on SD or RC kidney diet.

Dogs with kidney issues can be fine on the normal Prey Model raw diet, until the kidney numbers reach a certain level, then you have to adjust the diet because of the phosphorus more than the protein. Feeding good quality protein is important though because as the amount gets limited the dog's muscles start to deteriorate. Raw animal protein is obviously the best quality of protein, because it still has all the nutrients and enzymes and is easy for the dog to digest.

Below is an interesting article to read, _"Mythology of Protein Restriction for Dogs with Reduced Renal Function"_ by Dr. Bovee, DVM, Department of Clinical Studies, School of Veterinary Medicine, University of Pennsylvania

http://www.optimalpetfoods.com/references/Mythology-of-Protein-Restriction-for-Dogs.pdf


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## monkeys23 (Dec 8, 2010)

DaneMama said:


> The water content of meat, keeps the protein level around 20%. But the nutritional make up of meat and organ is almost nearly all protein when the water is taken away. So...its nearly a protein exclusive diet in regards to nutrients. But in regards to weight....its mostly water.
> 
> Does this make sense?


Yes, totally makes sense and kind of along the lines of what I was thinking.



BeagleCountry said:


> The original research in regard to a high protein meat diet and organ failure was done with lab rats. Not a species appropriate diet for rats. For several decades the data was never questioned. It was taught in vet schools and preached by vets. Recent research related to dogs has shown the data is incorrect as meat is species appropriate. High protein does not cause the problem. For a dog that is challenged with kidney or liver problems purines in the meat is the culprit. A raw diet that focuses on white fish and chicken can be fed. Red meat is highest in purines. Kidney problems could be caused by anything from genetics to environment. A high meat protein grain free diet may no longer be appropriate but is highly unlikely to be the cause.


That is very interesting! Aren't purine issues really common in dals? The person posting this has a white dog with some dapples... not a dal, but if the genetics for color are similar could there possibly be purine issues going on and causing the tendancy toward kidney issues?


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## monkeys23 (Dec 8, 2010)

DaneMama said:


> The water content of meat, keeps the protein level around 20%. But the nutritional make up of meat and organ is almost nearly all protein when the water is taken away. So...its nearly a protein exclusive diet in regards to nutrients. But in regards to weight....its mostly water.
> 
> Does this make sense?





Roo said:


> After I switched to raw, my mom switched her two dogs, one of which was a 13 yr old lab with kidney issues. He did well on the first two months of Prey Model, but when they rechecked his kidney numbers, they were through the roof and mom had to adjust the diet. The bone, organ, and meat amounts as normally fed, were too high in phosphorus making his Creatine and BUN higher. Mom followed a home cooked kidney diet recipe recomended by her Holistic Vet, but fed most of the protein raw. Instead of bone, she fed ground up egg shell, a very very tiny amount of raw liver, raw beef, raw fish, raw chicken (all in limited amounts), lots of green tripe, lots of eggs/cooked egg whites, and she had to add sweet potato or sticky rice so he was getting enough food, because his protein amounts had to be more limited as he got worse. His numbers were better and stayed stable for a couple months once she adjusted his diet. He went down hill within 5 months of discovering he had kidney issues, so I'm sure he had some sort of cancer or something, it wasn't the raw diet, he had slight kidney issues before he started the diet when he was still on Wellness. In fact in the end, his kidney numbers were so high the vet told her that Copper should be dead and yet he was walking into the vets exam room all on his own, but he was staggering a bit. I think the diet helped to keep alive longer than if he had been on SD or RC kidney diet.
> 
> Dogs with kidney issues can be fine on the normal Prey Model raw diet, until the kidney numbers reach a certain level, then you have to adjust the diet because of the phosphorus more than the protein. Feeding good quality protein is important though because as the amount gets limited the dog's muscles start to deteriorate. Raw animal protein is obviously the best quality of protein, because it still has all the nutrients and enzymes and is easy for the dog to digest.
> 
> ...


I have to admit, I'm very curious what the root causes of some of these modern day dog diseases really are.

Also, why phosphorous? I'm familiar with the cal/phos debate as it relates to puppy growth and frankly it seems like its very difficult to see any real conclusive answers to that, but what is the role with kidney/liver function? Why would carnivores evolve to eat carcasses if excessive amounts of things naturally present in them could possibly cause kidney/liver damage? I just feel like there is something else in play here...


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## Roo (Oct 17, 2010)

> Also, why phosphorous?


When the kidneys are failing, phosphate starts to accumulate in the blood and leads to very high levels of phosphorus, which can lead to a more rapid health decline of the kidneys and other possible health issues. Some vets will even prescribe a calcium binder to help bring the phosphorus levels down when the kidneys numbers get bad. Feeding foods low in phosphorus, means less phosphate that can accumulate in the blood.


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## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

you know, I am a willy-nilly give them anything lazy person when it comes to PMR, but the one thing I am extremely careful of is the calcium/phosphorus ratio. Which is why I rarely give my dogs a truly boneless meal.

And it's because of this web page. I read it right when I first started feeding my dogs raw. the part i bolded scared me. The general consensus is that dogs need 2.5 times the calcium than the phosphorus. if i feed an egg, they get an eggshell. When they get meat, they get some bone (or eggshell). 

I have come to believe that alot of times the reason PMR or other raw diets don't do well is because this ratio is ignored. Like the person feeding their dog only chicken breasts, or ground meat.



> ...The common practice of feeding meat without bones (or bone meal) is nutritionally disastrous for dogs and cats. The correct proportion of meat to bones or bone meal is also poorly understood by many people, and their reliance on recommendations made by people who themselves don't know what they are doing makes the problem worse.
> 
> A homemade diet can be the best or the worst thing you can feed your pet. If you are going to feed homemade, do it right. Use a recipe or feeding plan based on sound nutritional principles, which has been used by many people over a long period of time. I faithfully weighed and measured every bite I gave my dogs and cats for over ten years before I felt comfortable enough modifying their diets. For cats I still feel best feeding a very precise recipe.
> 
> ...


Natural Diet: Don't "Just Do It"

I don't what I would do if my dog got kidney disease. But I think I would be finding the foods lowest in phosphorus.


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## monkeys23 (Dec 8, 2010)

Roo said:


> When the kidneys are failing, phosphate starts to accumulate in the blood and leads to very high levels of phosphorus, which can lead to a more rapid health decline of the kidneys and other possible health issues. Some vets will even prescribe a calcium binder to help bring the phosphorus levels down when the kidneys numbers get bad. Feeding foods low in phosphorus, means less phosphate that can accumulate in the blood.


So a properly balanced cal/phos ratio in the diet would not cause kidney disease? Because there are implications being made that feeding raw may eventually cause kidney disease. Maybe I'm reading it wrong, but thats sure what its sounding like. Not here, but somewhere else that spurred me to ask these questions out of curiosity.



xellil said:


> you know, I am a willy-nilly give them anything lazy person when it comes to PMR, but the one thing I am extremely careful of is the calcium/phosphorus ratio. Which is why I rarely give my dogs a truly boneless meal.
> 
> And it's because of this web page. I read it right when I first started feeding my dogs raw. the part i bolded scared me. The general consensus is that dogs need 2.5 times the calcium than the phosphorus. if i feed an egg, they get an eggshell. When they get meat, they get some bone (or eggshell).
> 
> ...


I agree, I'm pretty careful too to keep my ratios balanced. Its so easy to tell by how they are digesting if your ratios are right... at least with my dogs. And I feel like green tripe has been a really awesome addition to their diet too, it seems to be something they need.


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## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

monkeys23 said:


> I agree, I'm pretty careful too to keep my ratios balanced. Its so easy to tell by how they are digesting if your ratios are right... at least with my dogs. And I feel like green tripe has been a really awesome addition to their diet too, it seems to be something they need.


I'm with you on the tripe - I don't seem to be able to give a huge variety of meats, but i try to get them every part of an animal that I can. You just never know if something like tripe has an important enzyme they don't get from other parts. Like the glucosamine is mostly in the heads and feet of chickens.


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## Roo (Oct 17, 2010)

> So a properly balanced cal/phos ratio in the diet would not cause kidney disease? Because there are implications being made that feeding raw may eventually cause kidney disease. Maybe I'm reading it wrong, but thats sure what its sounding like. Not here, but somewhere else that spurred me to ask these questions out of curiosity.


I'm not sure if the cal/phos ratio has anything to do with the cause of kidney disease, I just know that when a dog is in renal failure, phosphate accumulates in their blood which is why it's good to feed low phosphorus foods. I don't worry so much about raw protein causing kidney issues because of the water content. If I remember correctly water helps to break down and process the amino acids in the protein, plus raw protein has it's enzymes that also help to break down the protein, I would think those two elements would make raw protein very easy to digest and easy on the kidneys to process. As far as high protein kibble, I just feel it's better to feed that soaked in water.


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

xellil said:


> you know, I am a willy-nilly give them anything lazy person when it comes to PMR, but the one thing I am extremely careful of is the calcium/phosphorus ratio. Which is why I rarely give my dogs a truly boneless meal.
> 
> And it's because of this web page. I read it right when I first started feeding my dogs raw. the part i bolded scared me. The general consensus is that dogs need 2.5 times the calcium than the phosphorus. if i feed an egg, they get an eggshell. When they get meat, they get some bone (or eggshell).
> 
> ...


so you feed bone with every meal?

i know that lew olson says to feed 50% bone, i think those are the right numbers....and prey model says feed about 10%...

which is right?


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## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

magicre said:


> so you feed bone with every meal?
> 
> i know that lew olson says to feed 50% bone, i think those are the right numbers....and prey model says feed about 10%...
> 
> which is right?


I believe 100% in the prey model so i try to do 10 percent. i have a long convoluted thought process for each dog that i won't bore you with - Rebel actually probably gets somewhere around 15% bone because of softer poops (and sometimes I get carried away with bone and give him sand poops) and Snorkels gets about 3 percent real bone (ground into a whole prey) and the rest eggshell because it doesn't constipate her. 

And on days when I give her a REAL bone (like the chicken head yesterday) she will get true boneless meals today because I figure that thing had to be 50 percent of more bone of all her meat. But dang, it's hard to feed a dog PMR and never let them eat a bone.


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## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

And i may be wrong, but I'm more bothered by too much phosphorus than calcium. It seems like when you read about problems it's often a lack of calcium.


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

so because i feed my dogs ribs and such every third meal or so...or duck necks or whatever bony meal i have around....i should be adding a really bony meal too? 

now i feel as if i'm not feeding enough bone


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## monkeys23 (Dec 8, 2010)

Every third meal sounds good. I actually only have designated rmb meals four nights a week (which thats the majority over a week, but still)... I'm probably a little over the 10% guideline, but mainly because I'm too lazy to break down rmb's teeny tiny and I believe its mor beneficial to have larger rmb's. If that makes sense. As it is, their rmb poo is pretty hard, I can crush it with my fingers when I bag it, but its definitely firm and pale from the bone content... if I were to add anymore it would be too much bone and result in powder poo.

And oddly since Scout has suddenly been less anxious the last few weeks ( I dunno why) her poo has been perfect. I always worry about her not getting enough bone in because she has loose poo issues, but now I'm wondering if its been stress all this time? I don't know what the hell changed the last few weeks, but it was like something clicked over and changed... she's been way relaxed and even more affectionate than usual, which she's always pretty pesky to me anyway, so this is just ridiculously hilarious and fun. She's put on a couple lbs too despite the amount she's fed staying the same. Maybe a good example to keep in mind that there are other factors in digestion/utilization than just what goes in/out?


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## monkeys23 (Dec 8, 2010)

Roo said:


> I'm not sure if the cal/phos ratio has anything to do with the cause of kidney disease, I just know that when a dog is in renal failure, phosphate accumulates in their blood which is why it's good to feed low phosphorus foods.  I don't worry so much about raw protein causing kidney issues because of the water content. If I remember correctly water helps to break down and process the amino acids in the protein, plus raw protein has it's enzymes that also help to break down the protein, I would think those two elements would make raw protein very easy to digest and easy on the kidneys to process. As far as high protein kibble, I just feel it's better to feed that soaked in water.


Okay that makes a lot more sense in clarification. So basically the onset of kidney disease damages normal function of the digestive process and causes stuff that would normally be well normal to cause issues.
I would think so too on the raw protien being much, much easier to digest!


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## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

magicre said:


> so because i feed my dogs ribs and such every third meal or so...or duck necks or whatever bony meal i have around....i should be adding a really bony meal too?
> 
> now i feel as if i'm not feeding enough bone


I am sure you are fine. I had to overthink the whole bone thing because it's so darn hard to get the organs/bone at a good level so she can poop but so that she's not totally boneless.

Plus, that web page really did scare me. i didn't want to be the ignorant owner who did it all wrong.


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## Roo (Oct 17, 2010)

> So basically the onset of kidney disease damages normal function of the digestive process and causes stuff that would normally be well normal to cause issues.


Yes, the kidneys don't function as well as normal health kidneys when a dog has kidney disease.

Dogs Naturally had an article recently on Cal/phos ratio with feeding raw bones and balancing it on a raw diet.
http://www.dogsnaturallymagazine.com/balancing-the-calciumphosphorous-ratio-in-a-raw-diet-for-dogs/


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

so whatever causes the kidneys to malfunction.....causes the imbalance general screw up of phosphates...not whether or not i'm feeding healthy dogs with healthy kidneys more than or less than 10% bone....ok.

i don't feel as much like an idiot as i did a few hours ago. 

'course, malia finally did me in and i had a few martinis....took myself out for dinner, i did.


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## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

Martinis always help


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## Roo (Oct 17, 2010)

Right, healthy kidneys can filter out excess phosphorus from the blood, unhealthy can't which causes the accumulation, sorry if I confused you.


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

i thought i was paying attention during nephrology 

thanks for clearing that up.


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## Khan (Jan 17, 2010)

magicre said:


> can you elaborate? i don't know as much as i would like......what kind of different protein would you not feed?


Sorry, I wasn't at the computer last night, so I didn't see this until now. Scrolling thru the post after this, it looks like everybody answered this re.
Here are some of the highlights from the research I did:
Reducing phosphorus by feeding moderate to high fat, moderate amounts of high quality protein, and although carbs bring no nutritional value to dogs, you may need to feed them in order to help reduce the phosphorus.
Highest in phosphorus include bones, dairy products, fish (with bones) organ meat and egg yolks. These foods can be fed but you just have to feed in moderation.
Moderate to High Fat include, lamb, pork, dark meat chicken and turkey although poultry is a low fat meat it is best to include the skin. Beef has less phosphorus than chicken, and lamb and turkey are in between. whole milk yogurt, cottage cheese, ricotta cheese are h igh in fat but also high in phosphorus so they should be fed in moderation, as is egg yolks.
Green Tripe as someone mentioned is very good, as is salmon oil. It is not recommended to give Flax Seed oil since it is high in Omega-6. They caution that the Omega-6 fatty acids are not a good source of nutrition for dogs. I'm not sure if that would also include Coconut Oil. I know that there has been recent talk of using that...?

Anyway, sorry for the late response; but I have tons more info, if you would like I will be happy to share.


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

Khan said:


> Sorry, I wasn't at the computer last night, so I didn't see this until now. Scrolling thru the post after this, it looks like everybody answered this re.
> Here are some of the highlights from the research I did:
> Reducing phosphorus by feeding moderate to high fat, moderate amounts of high quality protein, and although carbs bring no nutritional value to dogs, you may need to feed them in order to help reduce the phosphorus.
> Highest in phosphorus include bones, dairy products, fish (with bones) organ meat and egg yolks. These foods can be fed but you just have to feed in moderation.
> ...


don't be sorry. it's not as if you don't have a life outside this forum LOL...

if you want to post here, that would be great...if not, pm me. i am always down for information from a reliable source, which you are.

i think i mixed things up with omega 6. it's humans for which they are beneficial, right?

so we can get our dogs in trouble if we overfeed anything, pretty much....since obesity in dogs has to be a secondary contribution to kidney and liver issues, such as fatty liver infiltrates....

as long as we stick with bone/organ in small amounts/red meats that you mentioned....and exercise our dogs, they should not get kidney problems unless there is a genetic predisposition.

i wonder what the incidence of kidney cancer is in dogs.


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## monkeys23 (Dec 8, 2010)

I'd be glad to read any further information you want to post as well. 

Excessive omega 6 isn't great for humans either... the need for omega 3 stems from the fact that the majority of our meat/eggs comes from CAFO operations... feeding grains, soy, and other concentrated unnatural feeds for weight gain causes the animal's body fat composition to be primarily of omega 6 and sorely lacking in the high quality omega 3's that are abundant in pastured food production animals. I'm probably grossly oversimplifying here, but thats the gist of it. I've read a few scientific things about what that imbalance of omega's actually does to the human body, but yeah not gonna try to summarize that here because I'm not a sciency person.
So thats why dogs/cats fed primarily your typical grocery store fare need supplemented with good fish oil for omega-3's.


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## naturalfeddogs (Jan 6, 2011)

So in other words on the omegas, 3 is really the only one they need? A quality supplement of omega 3 alone is better than one with omega 6 included? For some reason, I thaught the two worked together.


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## Khan (Jan 17, 2010)

magicre said:


> don't be sorry. it's not as if you don't have a life outside this forum LOL...
> 
> if you want to post here, that would be great...if not, pm me. i am always down for information from a reliable source, which you are.
> 
> ...


I may have a little life outside the forum; but definitely not one outside the dogs!!

You are very correct when you say sticking with a diet that has small amounts of a variety is the way to go. In fact that is another comment within my findings. Just because a food may be high in phosphorus doesn't mean you don't feed them, as they are an important component of a healthy diet, but they should be fed in moderation.

I found this an interesting statistic: With rare exception, dogs do not suffer from high cholesterol of other human problems associated with high fat intake. However too much fat can be problematic for some dogs, and renal disease can predispose dogs to pancreatitis (*or it's possible that the combination of low protein and high fat found in prescription diets may be the underlying cause as this combination is known to predispose a dog to pancreatitis *

Here is a little more on the Omega's. Omega 6 fatty acids are inflammatory, and are not a good source of nutrition for dogs, and have been found to be harmful to dogs with kidney disease. (I'm assuming the inflammatory properties are hard on the kidney function) Olive Oil being deemed as OK in small amounts since this mostly Omega-9 which does not seem to affect kidney function. 
Fish oil, salmon or EPA oil (not sure what that is; but it's made clear NOT to give Cod Liver oil) is the most important supplement to give a dog with kidney disease. The omega-3 fatty acids have been found to slow progression of the disease. You can give as much as 300mg a day.


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

Khan said:


> I may have a little life outside the forum; but definitely not one outside the dogs!!
> 
> You are very correct when you say sticking with a diet that has small amounts of a variety is the way to go. In fact that is another comment within my findings. Just because a food may be high in phosphorus doesn't mean you don't feed them, as they are an important component of a healthy diet, but they should be fed in moderation.
> 
> ...


there are foods that are actually graded on how high or low their inflammatory - ness is for humans. i would think the same applies to dogs...

cruciferous veggies, like broccoli are inflammatory for those with thyroid and arthritis conditions. doesn't mean we shouldn't eat it, it just means we learn how to food combine and don't eat it for every meal.

as long as the kidneys in a dog are healthy, i would presume they can handle pretty much anything we throw at them, given the boundaries of what they are supposed to eat....

i wonder, though....it's interesting which came first...the disease or the food....

i was thinking this very thing when i was watching yet another commercial for cholesterol drugs....probably lipitor or something...and what struck me was the guy was saying 'when diet and exercise are not enough'...and that made me stop. 

not that i hadn't heard it before....

but what diet and what exercise is this person talking about? i brought my cholesterol down to normal just by stopping bread, flour, sugar and starches.

and taking a walk.

so what diet and exercise are not enough that a person has to take lipitor?

i'm beginning to believe that predisposition is not the same as hereditary..well, i know this and i think it applies to dogs as well. they aren't born with the predisposition for kidney disease....something triggers it. 

we all fed our dogs kibble..well, most of us did....just as i had a fentanyl pain patch and too many surgeries, i have a damaged liver....so wouldn't a dog be inclined to have kidney problems if fed kibble just one meal too many?

maybe, just maybe diet is everything.

for people whose dogs have never had kibble, i wonder if they have kidney problems.....and i'm not talking about stone formers....that is genetic..


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## monkeys23 (Dec 8, 2010)

Its certainly food for thought!!!


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

monkeys23 said:


> I'd be glad to read any further information you want to post as well.
> 
> Excessive omega 6 isn't great for humans either... the need for omega 3 stems from the fact that the majority of our meat/eggs comes from CAFO operations... feeding grains, soy, and other concentrated unnatural feeds for weight gain causes the animal's body fat composition to be primarily of omega 6 and sorely lacking in the high quality omega 3's that are abundant in pastured food production animals. I'm probably grossly oversimplifying here, but thats the gist of it. I've read a few scientific things about what that imbalance of omega's actually does to the human body, but yeah not gonna try to summarize that here because I'm not a sciency person.
> So thats why dogs/cats fed primarily your typical grocery store fare need supplemented with good fish oil for omega-3's.


don't ask me why i'm rolling omega 6 around in my head.....i always thought, if you ate the right food....omega 6 is good for you..

The Good and Bad of Omega 6 Fatty Acids

i have arthritis...and i do eat the foods mentioned..well, not all of them, but some.

i do understand that in regards to dogs, not so much..even though emu oil has omega 6 in it....and i've not seen ill effects...'course, they don't get it very often. but they eat emu which is good for them.

my head hurts LOL


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## Herzo (Feb 5, 2011)

My head is going in circles and I haven't even been in the discussion. I just wanted to say I find it all very interesting. I'm always worrying about if I'm feeding to much bone. I'm not good a math at all.


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## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

Herzo said:


> My head is going in circles and I haven't even been in the discussion. I just wanted to say I find it all very interesting. I'm always worrying about if I'm feeding to much bone. I'm not good a math at all.


Too me, it seems it's much easier to feed too little bone than too much. The poops will always let you know!


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## whiteleo (Sep 7, 2008)

Heres some more info and lets see if it works...<DogAware.com Health: Kidney Disease in Dogs>


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