# Veg?



## Branderstaffs (Jan 17, 2010)

Hi, I'm new to feeding raw to my dogs, I feed them raw dog mince that I get from my local butcher, also chicken wings in the morning or fresh green tripe for their breakfast.
I'm unsure whether my dogs are getting everything they need from that so I liquidised some veg and added it to their mince for todays dinner, should i do this once or twice a week or not add any veg at all!?
Any info appreciated.
Thanks,Kev.


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## Todd (Jan 13, 2010)

As long as you supply your dog with the correct amount of fresh meat, organ meat, and bones, he will be getting all of the nutrients that he needs. Therefore, there is no need to add vegetables to his diet. In the wild, wolves usually do not eat the stomach contents of their prey, unless it's a very small animal like a mouse or a rabbit. Dog's teeth do not have the ability to crush vegetables in a way where they can obtain nutrients from them, so for them to extract any nutrients at all, you must puree them. However, as long as your dog is on a sufficient prey model diet, there is not need to add any vegetables. Wolves in the wild almost never eat them. Wolves may occasionally eat some in the stomach of very small prey and or nibble on some grass, so if you would feel better giving him just a small hint of pureed vegetables a few times a week, it couldn't hurt. 

Hope I could help!:smile:


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## Branderstaffs (Jan 17, 2010)

Thanks Todd, I guess adding some once a week won't do any harm!


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## DaneMama (Jun 27, 2008)

Branderstaffs said:


> Thanks Todd, I guess adding some once a week won't do any harm!


They wont harm your dog :wink:

But do make sure that you are feeding liver and kidney at the very least as far as organ meats go. Green tripe does not replace these two essential parts to a raw diet. They are the only organ meat that we feed our dogs. Heart is not an organ, its considered muscle meat, but is very rich so it can be hard for dogs to adjust to it.

Good luck!


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## Branderstaffs (Jan 17, 2010)

danemama08 said:


> They wont harm your dog :wink:
> 
> But do make sure that you are feeding liver and kidney at the very least as far as organ meats go. Green tripe does not replace these two essential parts to a raw diet. They are the only organ meat that we feed our dogs. Heart is not an organ, its considered muscle meat, but is very rich so it can be hard for dogs to adjust to it.
> 
> Good luck!


Hi, the dog mince I get from my butcher has organ meat included, as well as bone parts which look like small white speks in the meat.


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## DaneMama (Jun 27, 2008)

I would highly suggest adding RMB's (raw meaty bones) to their diet so they get the dental benefits from it. The act of crunching and chewing bones naturally scrapes tarter off their teeth. There is no better way to prevent tarter buildup. By raw meaty bones I mean something with a bone/bones that has attached meat to it...for example a chicken quarter or back or turkey neck or beef rib bone.

Its is great that you have ground up bone for the nutritional part of it, but you want bone in for the recreational part of the health too!


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## rannmiller (Jun 27, 2008)

I've also heard that too much ground bone can cause constipation because it doesn't digest like whole raw bones do. I wouldn't recommend adding the veg mince since dogs have no use for it so all it's really going to do is loosen your dog's stools, which totally defeats one of the biggest reasons I love raw (among all the others), but if you don't mind that, then I guess you could continue with it. 

As far as the ground raw you get from your butcher, I'd have to see the ingredients in it to determine if your dogs are getting everything they need in the correct proportions. I, personally, like to be more in control over what my dogs are getting, how much, and I also like it to be as natural as possible for them so I just give them whole parts of whatever I'm feeding them including cuts of meat with bone in it, organs, and eggs.


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## Todd (Jan 13, 2010)

danemama08 said:


> They wont harm your dog :wink:
> 
> But do make sure that you are feeding liver and kidney at the very least as far as organ meats go. Green tripe does not replace these two essential parts to a raw diet. They are the only organ meat that we feed our dogs. Heart is not an organ, its considered muscle meat, but is very rich so it can be hard for dogs to adjust to it.
> 
> Good luck!


I gave my dog a beef kidney the other night, and she just looked at me like I was crazy:biggrin:

How did your dog react the first time she was offered an organ? 

BTW, I read that some dogs might like to try them frozen.

Same thing happened with the whole fish I offered her. I even cut it into small peaces. She only ate about a quarter of the fish, and had very loose stool today. What would you suggest I try? :smile:


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## Branderstaffs (Jan 17, 2010)

danemama08 said:


> I would highly suggest adding RMB's (raw meaty bones) to their diet so they get the dental benefits from it. The act of crunching and chewing bones naturally scrapes tarter off their teeth. There is no better way to prevent tarter buildup. By raw meaty bones I mean something with a bone/bones that has attached meat to it...for example a chicken quarter or back or turkey neck or beef rib bone.
> 
> Its is great that you have ground up bone for the nutritional part of it, but you want bone in for the recreational part of the health too!


Hi, thanks for your reply.
I occasionally give my dogs a cow shin bone to chew on but the next time i'm in the butchers I'll ask him for some meaty cow rib bones, I give my dogs rawhide chews every day which they enjoy but they can be quite expensive!


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## rannmiller (Jun 27, 2008)

Oh boy be careful with both of those chews you're giving them! Cow shin bones are very hard and made to withstand much more pressure than your dogs' teeth can exert, which could lead to broken teeth! Also, rawhide can be dangerous because it is not easy to digest as it expands in the dog's GI tract.

Rib bones are definitely a much better and safer option!


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## Branderstaffs (Jan 17, 2010)

rannmiller said:


> Oh boy be careful with both of those chews you're giving them! Cow shin bones are very hard and made to withstand much more pressure than your dogs' teeth can exert, which could lead to broken teeth! Also, rawhide can be dangerous because it is not easy to digest as it expands in the dog's GI tract.
> 
> Rib bones are definitely a much better and safer option!


OK thanks, I'll get rib bones ASAP!

Are meaty Pig rib bones safe enough, I see them for sale in ASDA's and I'm tempted to try them on my dogs!


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## rannmiller (Jun 27, 2008)

Yep pork ribs are a great safe choice too!


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## RawFedDogs (Jun 16, 2008)

Generally, most of the "dog food mixes" that butchers sell are made up of the cheap stuff. Way too much fat and bone and way too little meat. Your dog is missing some of the benefits of bone by eating them ground. I would stay away from cow bones except maybe the rib bones. Pork bones are softer and easier for your dog to eat.

Rather than the "dog food mix" from the butcher, It would be much more beneficial to your dog to feed him whole animal parts such as chicken quarters, backs, and breasts as well as turkey necks, wings, and drumsticks and pork roasts and rib racks. That way you know your dog is getting real food and not garbage that your butcher would otherwise throw away.

Stay away from rawhides. They can and often are dangerous to your dog and serve no useful purpose other than a play toy.


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## Branderstaffs (Jan 17, 2010)

RawFedDogs said:


> Generally, most of the "dog food mixes" that butchers sell are made up of the cheap stuff. Way too much fat and bone and way too little meat. Your dog is missing some of the benefits of bone by eating them ground. I would stay away from cow bones except maybe the rib bones. Pork bones are softer and easier for your dog to eat.
> 
> Rather than the "dog food mix" from the butcher, It would be much more beneficial to your dog to feed him whole animal parts such as chicken quarters, backs, and breasts as well as turkey necks, wings, and drumsticks and pork roasts and rib racks. That way you know your dog is getting real food and not garbage that your butcher would otherwise throw away.
> 
> Stay away from rawhides. They can and often are dangerous to your dog and serve no useful purpose other than a play toy.


Hi, I just found your page about raw feeding, very interesting.
I have a few pictures of the mince I get from my butcher, it comes in frozen blocks so it's easier to manage, there is very little fat included and the cow meat is Aberdeen Angus,the best meat on the market!
My dogs do love it and eat every bit.


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## rannmiller (Jun 27, 2008)

Do you have a list of ingredients so we know what all is in it?


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## RawFedDogs (Jun 16, 2008)

Branderstaffs said:


> I have a few pictures of the mince I get from my butcher, it comes in frozen blocks so it's easier to manage, there is very little fat included and the cow meat is Aberdeen Angus,the best meat on the market!


IF its the best meat on the market. IF there is very little fat included. IF there is very little bone, you are paying between $10 to $15/lb for it. If you are getting it for a couple of dollars a pound or less, he is selling you garbage with lots of fat and bone. It may be Amberdeen Angus but I bet you its the scrap stuff he can't sell for human food. Believe me, butchers don't grind up prime stuff to sell as dog food. They can get many times more money if they sell it as human food.



> My dogs do love it and eat every bit.


Thats no sign of quality. Most dogs eat poop also. My dogs will eat road kill squirrels. They LOVE them. Even if they have been laying dead in the hot Georgia sunshine for a week or so.

After saying all that, it's probably more nutritious than kibble, just not nearly as good as whole unprocessed animal parts.


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## DaneMama (Jun 27, 2008)

Todd said:


> I gave my dog a beef kidney the other night, and she just looked at me like I was crazy:biggrin:
> 
> How did your dog react the first time she was offered an organ?
> 
> ...


Our dogs all turned their noses up at kidney, except Akasha...she will eat anything! We just shove organ meats down our dogs throats since they wont eat it, even if frozen or seared. Its the fastest and easiest way for them to get their organs in...even if we have to force feed them :wink:

A lot of dogs don't like fish. Two of our four refuse to eat it. If you have never given your dog fish before, chances are that is why she got loose stool from it. With each new protein source you add in, it takes time for her to adjust to it. I suggest you continue to offer fish, since she is willing to eat it even if she gets loose stool from it...chances are that she will eventually get used to it.



Branderstaffs said:


> Hi, thanks for your reply.
> I occasionally give my dogs a cow shin bone to chew on but the next time i'm in the butchers I'll ask him for some meaty cow rib bones, I give my dogs rawhide chews every day which they enjoy but they can be quite expensive!


Cut the rawhides out completely if I were you. They can cause blockages and really don't do much good. The rawhide is not digestible and can get stuck. I would just stick with beef rib bones, they tend to last about a week here at our house.


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## JayJayisme (Aug 2, 2009)

Regarding beef rib bones, there is one thing about them I've yet to see mentioned among the PMR people that might be worth noting.

Generally when the rack of ribs is sawed away from the spine, there is a small piece of vertebrae attached by ligament tissue to the base of the rib. As the dog eats the meat away, they usually separate this small piece of bone from the rib and it's just the right size to present a choking hazard to some dogs.

I remove that little piece of bone with a sharp, thin boning knife and discard it before I give a beef rib to either of my dogs. Admittedly, some dogs are large enough to swallow this piece of bone whole. But some dogs that aren't large enough to do this will try anyway.

Also, RFD has mentioned this before and it's worth repeating. If you feed ribs to a large dog, it's best to give them 2 or 3 connected ribs from the rack (depending on the size of the dog and the size of the ribs) so they are forced to chew their food. My dogs are small enough that even a single pork rib requires them to work at breaking it down into chunks they can swallow but a larger dog may try to swallow it whole. You have to make judgment calls as you prep their food based on the size of the dog and the size of the food. Watch them eat and you will get a feel for what size their food should be after awhile.

My dogs love both beef and pork ribs but they can't actually eat a beef rib bone completely. It takes them an hour or two to strip all the meat off, then a couple days to whittle the bone down to the point where I have to throw it away. But they both eat pork ribs completely, even my little 16 lb. daschund/cocker mix. It's a great source of bone for them and it's easy to eat. Their teeth are immaculate too!


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## Branderstaffs (Jan 17, 2010)

RawFedDogs said:


> IF its the best meat on the market. IF there is very little fat included. IF there is very little bone, you are paying between $10 to $15/lb for it. If you are getting it for a couple of dollars a pound or less, he is selling you garbage with lots of fat and bone. It may be Amberdeen Angus but I bet you its the scrap stuff he can't sell for human food. Believe me, butchers don't grind up prime stuff to sell as dog food. They can get many times more money if they sell it as human food.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Oh well, It's a hell of a lot better than the kibble I used to feed my dogs as I'm starting to notice a positive change in their coat condition already,it may not be a perfect BARF diet but it's a start in the right direction as I see it!
I paid £16 for 12kg of the mince which works out about 65p per 1lb which others have told me is the average price, I don't know what that would be in dollars!
Btw, I got cow ribs today which are joined in blocks of four so they'll be having them for their dinner tomorrow! :biggrin:


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## Branderstaffs (Jan 17, 2010)

rannmiller said:


> Do you have a list of ingredients so we know what all is in it?


I'm not sure of the fat content but there is pork meat,beef meat,lamb meat,heart,kindney,liver,chicken carcases which the boney bits must be in the mince, I can't remember if there is tripe in there also!?(doesn't smell like it)lol.


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## rannmiller (Jun 27, 2008)

Branderstaffs said:


> Oh well, It's a hell of a lot better than the kibble I used to feed my dogs as I'm starting to notice a positive change in their coat condition already,it may not be a perfect BARF diet but it's a start in the right direction as I see it!


It's definitely a lot better than kibble could ever hope to be, we're just saying that you might be able to save money and get even more benefit from it if you do it a bit differently. 

And just for the record, none of us here like the BARF diet because that's the one that advocates for way too much bone and veggie content. I think most people confuse any raw diet as being the BARF diet, but there are different types. The one most of us raw feeders on here do is the PMR (prey model raw) style which is where you try to model your dog's diet off of what they would eat in the wild, including whole cuts of meat, bones, and organs.


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## Branderstaffs (Jan 17, 2010)

rannmiller said:


> It's definitely a lot better than kibble could ever hope to be, we're just saying that you might be able to save money and get even more benefit from it if you do it a bit differently.
> 
> And just for the record, none of us here like the BARF diet because that's the one that advocates for way too much bone and veggie content. I think most people confuse any raw diet as being the BARF diet, but there are different types. The one most of us raw feeders on here do is the PMR (prey model raw) style which is where you try to model your dog's diet off of what they would eat in the wild, including whole cuts of meat, bones, and organs.


Hi, thanks for shedding some light on the different types of raw feeding that's out there,the PMR is the one that appeals to me most but the only foods I can get are what I see in the supermarkets or Butchers shop, the supermarkets have a wide range of frozen lamb legs,chicken breasts etc. I also spotted bags of frozen Salmon fillets so I'll get them that the next time i'm in!


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