# More Ignorance



## xxshaelxx (Mar 8, 2010)

Bill, I'm sure you'll love this one, as this person totally stubs on your best pal, Lonsdale.

Anyways, I posted up some information on Dog Food in a group on the site DeviantArt. LOVED the reply by one of the members. I'm not even going to bother trying to argue back, though, but just thought you guys might get a kick out of just how ignorant and stubborn this person is being about his/her knowledge on pet food.

#The-Siberian-Husky Blog on deviantART: Pet Food Nutrition


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## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

I wonder how big of a pet food display he has in his vet office.

I also wonder what MY vet would say to that - she is supporting my switch to raw food. She has no pet food displays in her office.

However, my emergency vet's office has quite a large one - and every time I go there, I get the same message - corn is fine, chicken byproducts are fine, I am basically an idiot because I won't listen to them.

In the end, you did what you could - put the info out there, and let people make their own decisions.

Now, I am not so sure about putting euthanized animals into dog food. I think that might be a stretch.


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## RaisingWolves (Mar 19, 2011)

xellil said:


> Now, I am not so sure about putting euthanized animals into dog food. I think that might be a stretch.


Oh no, not a stretch at all! AAFCO admits it is allowed.

YouTube - The Truth about Dog and Cat Food

One more..
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g9DTzDfYMxo&feature=related


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## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

Well, blow me down.

You know, this is how mad cow disease got started. At one time, it was legal to feed cows the byproducts of other cows/sheep, forcing them to be carnivores.


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## RaisingWolves (Mar 19, 2011)

Isn't it crazy? And what really boggles my mind....how many people think raw food contains more bacteria?ainkiller:
I hate to admit this, but when I was a kid, my brother and I ate a milk bone dog biscuit to see how it tasted!:yuck:


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## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

You know, I kind of get taking all the crap they toss out from rendering animals and putting it in dog food - but euthanized animals? I mean, that's just insane. 

Oh, I've eaten Alpo!! God knows what was in that - so don't feel bad about your milk bone.


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## xxshaelxx (Mar 8, 2010)

There have been studies done that have found trace amounts of the drug used to euthanize these dogs and cats actually IN pet foods. And the sickest part is that it's actually legal for them to render dogs and cats back into pet foods. There's no laws against it.


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## Ania's Mommy (Feb 8, 2009)

Haha! When I first read the post, I was like, "WTH is Amanda talking about? I agree with everything here!" Then I saw xxshaelxx at the bottom, and it all came together for me.

THEN I read the response of the veterinary surgeon.:heh: She did a good job of proving how vets tend to know almost nothing about how their charges should be fed.


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## Ania's Mommy (Feb 8, 2009)

Also, I came across this website yesterday when I was looking for info on mad cow (sorry, again, BrownieM): Freshly Roasted Ass: What A Rendering Plant Smells Like « Poisoned Pets

Kibble is... SERIOUSLY gross.


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## BrownieM (Aug 30, 2010)

Questionable scientific integrity?

Dogs and wolves being completely different species?

I am surprised at how closed minded this person is. I have found that *most* vets these days are at least open to the possibility of a raw diet.


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## SilverBeat (Jan 16, 2011)

> Additionally, in my experience and based on the nutritional breakdowns of the diets 'natural' diets are far more likely to contain inappropriate ingredients that the extremely carefully and well designed commercial big brands of food.


... :twitch:


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## Tobi (Mar 18, 2011)

RaisingWolves said:


> Isn't it crazy? And what really boggles my mind....how many people think raw food contains more bacteria?ainkiller:
> I hate to admit this, but when I was a kid, my brother and I ate a milk bone dog biscuit to see how it tasted!:yuck:


lol kids...

I remember taking Raw hamburger when my mom was cooking and eating it... still here :lol:


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## RaisingWolves (Mar 19, 2011)

Ania's Mommy said:


> Also, I came across this website yesterday when I was looking for info on mad cow (sorry, again, BrownieM): Freshly Roasted Ass: What A Rendering Plant Smells Like « Poisoned Pets
> 
> Kibble is... SERIOUSLY gross.


Kibble is GROSS! 

OMG, this is sad and funny at the same time. 


_"I don’t know about you, but I can’t wait! I’ve always wanted to throw-up in public! But seriously, you think I’m kidding? Did you know that shit, pardon me, feces or excreta is legally allowed in pet food? Manufacturers are perfectly welcome to use it as a source of protein, according to our AAFCO. They call it Dried Poultry Waste and it listed in the AAFCO’s Official Publication as an ingredient definition of “Other Protein Sources”. Isn’t that special. I’m sorry, but, since when is shit, excuse me, poop, a yummy source of protein?"
_


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## Tobi (Mar 18, 2011)

RaisingWolves said:


> excuse me, poop, a yummy source of protein?"


:lol: Tobi would like to have a word with you... He loves his horse poops! uke:


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## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

Does anyone besides me feel they have been subjecting their pets to animal cruelty for all these years, by feeding them this stuff? I mean - I am 53 years old and I just started feeding raw LAST WEEK! SO many years of feeding poop and dead animals to my dogs...


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## RaisingWolves (Mar 19, 2011)

Tobi said:


> :lol: Tobi would like to have a word with you... He loves his horse poops! uke:


You need to have a serious talk with that boy!:twitch:


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## Tobi (Mar 18, 2011)

xellil said:


> Does anyone besides me feel they have been subjecting their pets to animal cruelty for all these years, by feeding them this stuff? I mean - I am 53 years old and I just started feeding raw LAST WEEK! SO many years of feeding poop and dead animals to my dogs...


 I feel bad for feeding Kibble to my dogs that i have owned in my adult years, But you can't always do the best if you don't know what is the best... My entire family thinks i'm bananas because i find such joy in giving Tobi all the nasties, while they are still feeding Science Diet 


RaisingWolves said:


> You need to have a serious talk with that boy!:twitch:


:lol:

I wish we had a video camera on our hikes, he takes leave it for the 1 pellet so we go through about 15 leave its before we move on from the horse pile!


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## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

Tobi said:


> I wish we had a video camera on our hikes, he takes leave it for the 1 pellet so we go through about 15 leave its before we move on from the horse pile!


That is so hilarious - dogs aren't stupid, they trust you mean what you say, and if you say "leave it" for one thing, you don't necessarily mean it for ALL things that are exactly the same.

Like the old Jack Russell someone dumped off at our house - we had to teach him not to pee on all FOUR chair legs (for every chair), all corners of the couch etc. one at a time. It just cracked me up.


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## BrownieM (Aug 30, 2010)

xellil said:


> Does anyone besides me feel they have been subjecting their pets to animal cruelty for all these years, by feeding them this stuff? I mean - I am 53 years old and I just started feeding raw LAST WEEK! SO many years of feeding poop and dead animals to my dogs...


I'm pretty sure you are still feeding dead animals to your dogs....:wink:


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## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

BrownieM said:


> I'm pretty sure you are still feeding dead animals to your dogs....:wink:


True - I guess I should say - dead cats and dogs!

I guess it would be kind of hard to do the raw diet without including dead animals.

by the way, I know someone who just put their dog on a vegetarian diet. They actually make that food.


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## Mokapi (Apr 7, 2011)

xellil said:


> That is so hilarious - dogs aren't stupid, they trust you mean what you say, and if you say "leave it" for one thing, you don't necessarily mean it for ALL things that are exactly the same.
> 
> Like the old Jack Russell someone dumped off at our house - we had to teach him not to pee on all FOUR chair legs (for every chair), all corners of the couch etc. one at a time. It just cracked me up.


LMAO, I was watching a Dogtona video from last year of the "leave it" competition- the judges put a plate of hot dogs in front of the contestants and slowly moved them forward while the owners (without touching the dogs) had to say "LEAVE IT...". This greyhound left his own plate alone, but ate the hotdogs off the plate of his neighbor and then looked back at his laughing mom like "what?! You said leave my plate alone...and I did!". It was pretty funny. 

This link...I love the OP's post, but the comments are dumb LOL. 

Today I passed a new place called Indiana Veterinary Alternatives...I looked her up on FB (it's new enough she only has a Facebook, no actual website) and there were links about vegan diets for dogs? I was confused, LOL.


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## Tobi (Mar 18, 2011)

Mokapi said:


> LMAO, I was watching a Dogtona video from last year of the "leave it" competition- the judges put a plate of hot dogs in front of the contestants and slowly moved them forward while the owners (without touching the dogs) had to say "LEAVE IT...". This greyhound left his own plate alone, but ate the hotdogs off the plate of his neighbor and then looked back at his laughing mom like "what?! You said leave my plate alone...and I did!". It was pretty funny.
> 
> This link...I love the OP's post, but the comments are dumb LOL.
> 
> Today I passed a new place called Indiana Veterinary Alternatives...I looked her up on FB (it's new enough she only has a Facebook, no actual website) and there were links about vegan diets for dogs? I was confused, LOL.


Vegan dogs! lol cuz if humans can do it dogs sure can! :lol:


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## RaisingWolves (Mar 19, 2011)

Mokapi said:


> LMAO, I was watching a Dogtona video from last year of the "leave it" competition- the judges put a plate of hot dogs in front of the contestants and slowly moved them forward while the owners (without touching the dogs) had to say "LEAVE IT...". This greyhound left his own plate alone, but ate the hotdogs off the plate of his neighbor and then looked back at his laughing mom like "what?! You said leave my plate alone...and I did!". It was pretty funny.


Too funny! 
OMG, I can't tell you how many times I've told my puppy to "LEAVE IT", but apparently a lot because I actually gave my husband that command one day. It just came out, "Leave it!" and he immediately dropped what he had in his hands, and we both busted out laughing. :biggrin1:


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## SerenityFL (Sep 28, 2010)

xellil said:


> Does anyone besides me feel they have been subjecting their pets to animal cruelty for all these years, by feeding them this stuff? I mean - I am 53 years old and I just started feeding raw LAST WEEK! SO many years of feeding poop and dead animals to my dogs...


Yes. Absolutely yes. The more I learn, the more I think this. And I start thinking of my other pets I've had...like my beloved feline that passed away four years ago....and I wonder...yeah, he was 14 but he could have gone on longer....and I wonder...had I not been an idiot with the pet food and fed him raw, would he have lived longer, had a healthier ending....just died of old age instead? I loved that cat and sometimes, (like yesterday, at work, when I was sitting taking a break and just starting thinking), I'll get teared up thinking I killed him because of my ignorance.

You're not alone. At all.

And it disturbs me greatly that those who "care" for animals, as their job, won't even open their minds to learn. They are slammed shut and they don't even try to learn everything. Take the spoon feeding from Science Diet while you're in school and never bother to research outside of school...because everyone knows two things: The media and institutes of higher learning are NEVER BIASED! EVER! (sarcasm)

I'm thankful for my vet and the vet techs. The one may have flinched when I said, "organs" but they didn't tell me it was wrong. In fact, one tech told me that his uncle feeds his pets raw...although it was more like the BARF diet...but they didn't tell me I was wrong and didn't try to lecture me or tell me to try something different. Hearing all the stories on here, I'm sticking with this vet while I live in Miami. I'm very, very thankful.


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## SerenityFL (Sep 28, 2010)

Tobi said:


> Vegan dogs! lol cuz if humans can do it dogs sure can! :lol:


I left Seattle in 2003...I say that just to give you a time frame. I'm not saying all in Seattle are like this, (we have raw feeders here from Seattle so they don't all act like lunatics...), but I got to experience a lot of snide comments and rude remarks in my direction because, even though I was feeding that horrible kibble, I would look for kibble that had the first two ingredients be something meat, and the vegetarians and vegans that surrounded me, (where I lived), were beyond ticked off at me for it. They insisted I needed to feed my pets veggies...to be "kind" to nature.

I had a real nasty encounter one day when I asked one of them how they knew that the veggies weren't screaming when they were pulled from the ground. Didn't the veggies want to live, too? Yah, that didn't end well. LOL! But that veggie thing has been around for awhile....I shook my head then, I shake my head now. Maybe for humans it's ok....you do what you want, doesn't bother me but dogs? C'mon.


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## eternalstudent (Jul 22, 2010)

Ok so the vet seems to be a bit of pompous british ass!!! But I would post this one on the site

It was posted on a rotti forum and I have no reason to doubt its validity.

Family dog that was put to sleep, wakes up hours later, finds new home

It is not a pleasant thought, and being that I believe the city and county of Los Angeles has a contract with a rendering company (West Coast Rendering) for road kill, restaurant grease, butcher scraps and euthanised shelter animals.

I think that the guy needs to look from under his rose tinted glasses!!


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## eternalstudent (Jul 22, 2010)

Vegetarian dogs. Omnivores like humans are not supposed to be vegetarian. The people who do it to a dog should lose the right to have a dog based on floored judgment :-|


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## 3Musketeers (Nov 4, 2010)

Wow, no words...
The ignorance...


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## SilverBeat (Jan 16, 2011)

On vegan dogs: I read this a while ago and lost a whole lot of respect for this lady: Please Meet The Beasts | Bonzai Aphrodite



> For those asking “why” a veg*n diet, there’s a few reasons. First and for clarity, dogs are not obligate carnivores in the way that cats are. They are true omnivores, which means they are *capable* of eating both plants and animals (but not that they *need* to). More specifically, they are opportunistic scavengers just the same as humans. That is to say they’ve evolved to pretty much take what they can get and survive on a variety of diets.
> *So, from an ethical standpoint, if my dogs do not NEED to eat animals, then it’s my moral obligation to cease contributing to animal suffering on their behalf.*


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## xxshaelxx (Mar 8, 2010)

I love how the person who doesn't agree with me just can't wrap his/her mind around the fact that it IS legal in the US and Canada to render pets put to sleep in shelters and veterinarian clinics, and justifies that by saying that it's not legal in the UK, so therefore it can't be here, and no respectable vet would ever do it.


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## SilverBeat (Jan 16, 2011)

Head in the sand. :lalala:


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## Boxers&Pom's Mom (Jan 17, 2011)

xellil said:


> Does anyone besides me feel they have been subjecting their pets to animal cruelty for all these years, by feeding them this stuff? I mean - I am 53 years old and I just started feeding raw LAST WEEK! SO many years of feeding poop and dead animals to my dogs...


I feel the same way  It is very hard when we are not educated. I am always blame myself for doing bad things to my children and dogs, because I did not knows better. In my times we did not have the Internet to answer to all our concerns. I even never spay a dog until probably 14 years ago. 
Still learning tho!


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## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

Boxers&Pom's Mom said:


> I feel the same way  It is very hard when we are not educated. I am always blame myself for doing bad things to my children and dogs, because I did not knows better. In my times we did not have the Internet to answer to all our concerns. I even never spay a dog until probably 14 years ago.
> Still learning tho!


Yep - I don't even want to think about what I did to my kid!!!

We spayed the females, but left the males intact. However, you probably remember many years ago how expensive it was to spay or neuter a dog - not like today. you couldn't go down to a low-cost place and get it done for $60.

Being young and living hand to mouth in the first place, it was often very difficult to pay for the operation but I always managed somehow (usually by asking my parents for money) because I didn't want a litter that would give me MORE females to spay.


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## xxshaelxx (Mar 8, 2010)

Hey, guys, please remember that this discussion centers around crappy kibbles, because there are kibbles for people who don't have the resources to feed raw, or just really can't/don't want to. I think it's kind of wrong of us to just discount ALL kibbles. There are many great kibbles out there as well that don't utilize things such as pets in pet foods, or chicken feces, or anything else like that. So when talking about feeling bad for what you HAVE fed your pets, remember that there are still people on this forum that do feed kibble, and that they still want what's best for their dogs, even if they don't feed raw. There are even people on here that believe raw isn't the best either.


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## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

xxshaelxx said:


> Hey, guys, please remember that this discussion centers around crappy kibbles, because there are kibbles for people who don't have the resources to feed raw, or just really can't/don't want to. I think it's kind of wrong of us to just discount ALL kibbles. There are many great kibbles out there as well that don't utilize things such as pets in pet foods, or chicken feces, or anything else like that. So when talking about feeling bad for what you HAVE fed your pets, remember that there are still people on this forum that do feed kibble, and that they still want what's best for their dogs, even if they don't feed raw. There are even people on here that believe raw isn't the best either.


I don't think it's the fact that all kibble is awful - I think it's the fact that the ingredients are hidden and disguised in such a way that most people (me) don't know what we are feeding our animals. I don't think ANYONE, no matter what they feed their dogs, would be ok with feeding euthanized dogs and cats.

Believe me, I was feeding dry dog food until very recently so I'm not criticising anyone for doing it.


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## Ania's Mommy (Feb 8, 2009)

xxshaelxx said:


> Hey, guys, please remember that this discussion centers around crappy kibbles, because there are kibbles for people who don't have the resources to feed raw, or just really can't/don't want to. I think it's kind of wrong of us to just discount ALL kibbles. There are many great kibbles out there as well that don't utilize things such as pets in pet foods, or chicken feces, or anything else like that. So when talking about feeling bad for what you HAVE fed your pets, remember that there are still people on this forum that do feed kibble, and that they still want what's best for their dogs, even if they don't feed raw. There are even people on here that believe raw isn't the best either.


Wait. What? I thought this discussion was about the fact that a vet replied to your blog post about PMR saying that it was bad/dangerous and we should feed our pets a good kibble instead. Then the discussion got off track, but originally, I thought this was about how once again a veterinarian was bashing something she knew nothing about.

Did I miss something? Because that's pretty much raw vs. kibble... 

And yes, I DO think that all kibbles are crappy. Some much less so than others, but crappy nonetheless.


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## xxshaelxx (Mar 8, 2010)

Ania's Mommy said:


> Wait. What? I thought this discussion was about the fact that a vet replied to your blog post about PMR saying that it was bad/dangerous and we should feed our pets a good kibble instead. Then the discussion got off track, but originally, I thought this was about how once again a veterinarian was bashing something she knew nothing about.
> 
> Did I miss something? Because that's pretty much raw vs. kibble...
> 
> And yes, I DO think that all kibbles are crappy. Some much less so than others, but crappy nonetheless.


No, I just noticed that a couple of raw feeders were saying how they felt like they were such horrible people for ever feeding kibble, and I just wanted to make sure everyone realizes that they're talking about junk kibble, not the good brand kibbles that other members of the forum use.


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## Ania's Mommy (Feb 8, 2009)

Oh. Gottcha.

I do want to commend you for your remarkable restraint to the vet's response. :thumb: :becky:


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## xxshaelxx (Mar 8, 2010)

Ania's Mommy said:


> Oh. Gottcha.
> 
> I do want to commend you for your remarkable restraint to the vet's response. :thumb: :becky:


hahahaha. I had, like, two pages of a reply written up, and I was, like, "Is this even worth it? It's just gonna start more problems, because this person is a b****. So I just deleted it and went on my way. Then I decided to write something up to make myself look like the better person. hahahaha.


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## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

Sometimes you just have to cut your losses. Debating takes alot of time and energy, especially when someone is determined you are wrong no matter what you say. So good for you.


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## Boxers&Pom's Mom (Jan 17, 2011)

I did considered myself to be done bad, because I was feeding them, Pedigree trying to save some money in this bad economy. My 12 years old Pom die for kidney disease and still I think if she probably were at the time in a better diet, she still will be here.
It is why I decide to start raw for my Senior Boxer. At least if I can extend her life a bit more, I am going to feel better with myself.
My daughter feed her dog Orijen and she love it and the results in her dog health.


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## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

Boxers&Pom's Mom said:


> I did considered myself to be done bad, because I was feeding them, Pedigree trying to save some money in this bad economy. My 12 years old Pom die for kidney disease and still I think if she probably were at the time in a better diet, she still will be here.
> It is why I decide to start raw for my Senior Boxer. At least if I can extend her life a bit more, I am going to feel better with myself.
> My daughter feed her dog Orijen and she love it and the results in her dog health.


Two things about Pedigree - first, for a less expensive dog food, i don't think they are that bad. Second, they give a HUGE amount to rescue. Huge. When I am donating to rescues, I always buy Pedigree for that reason.

And another thing - yes, I feel like i was awful for feeding my dogs dead dogs and chicken poop without knowing it. I DO feel like that was doing something awful - but I'm more angry at the pet food people for putting that in the food. Who would even DREAM that was going on? Not me, that's for sure.

Having said THAT - I was not always in a financial position to buy "good" dog food. yes, i have gone to the feed store and bought the biggest bag of cheap food that I could find. Had I known there was probably dead dogs in it, I wouldn't have done it. But there shouldn't have been dead dogs in it, in the first place.

I am disgusted with myself that i fed my dogs that stuff. It can't have been good for them. But if the bag had said "Dead dogs and chicken poop" I would never have bought it in the first place. I would have fed them vienna sausage.


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## RaisingWolves (Mar 19, 2011)

My mother grew up during the great depression and could not afford to buy commercial dog food. They fed their dog table scraps.

I just ordered the book "Buyer Beware: The crimes, lies and truth about pet food"

Amazon.com: Buyer Beware: The crimes, lies and truth about pet food. (Volume 1) (9781453855010): Susan Thixton: Books


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## BrownieM (Aug 30, 2010)

xellil said:


> Two things about Pedigree - first, for a less expensive dog food, i don't think they are that bad. Second, they give a HUGE amount to rescue. Huge. When I am donating to rescues, I always buy Pedigree for that reason.


Yuck...why would you donate that crap to rescues? Pedigree is one of the WORST of the worst. I don't care who they donate to. Dogs in shelters deserve somethin' better. Why not Kirkland or something? 

In my opinion, Pedigree *is* that bad for being a relatively inexpensive dog food.


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## Tobi (Mar 18, 2011)

BrownieM said:


> Yuck...why would you donate that crap to rescues? Pedigree is one of the WORST of the worst. I don't care who they donate to. Dogs in shelters deserve somethin' better. Why not Kirkland or something?
> 
> In my opinion, Pedigree *is* that bad for being a relatively inexpensive dog food.


I would have to very much agree that pedigree is one of the worst of the worst...


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## Unosmom (May 3, 2009)

> I just ordered the book "Buyer Beware: The crimes, lies and truth about pet food"


I just finished reading this book, most of it was nothing new to me, but still some pretty disgusting information that I wished I did have to hear. What I found interesting is that its illegal to use diseased animals in pet food according to the FDA, yet its a common practice. In the book theres an excerpt taken from a personal account by pest control operator documenting what he saw at a rendering facility. Hopefully I can share it here:

" the plant was out in the middle of an open field and except fir a 15 foot parameter around the building, the weeds were waist to neck high. I entered the plant on a dirt drive that went up to a concrete parking slab in the front of the building;in front of the office door and a large overhead foor. The dirt drive went around one side of the building to the back where there was a concrete dump area with an overhead door going into the building. The concrete slab was sloped away from the building with a curb on both sides so that they could wash down the area. This is where the dead animals, parts and pieces of animals and other things to be rendered or processed were dumped. Between the dirt drive area and the building was junk parts and equipment piled up that obviously house a large colony of rats as you would see their trails in and out of the junk piles. The other dumping ground or machine parts, etc, out back was also full of rats. The concrete pad in the back where trucks dumped their loads had rat holes lining the curb that ran along the sides. 
As you might imagine this area was loaded with flies; the piles of products were alive with maggots. It made it look like the whole pile of product was alive and moving. After the loads were dumped they were picked up by a bobcat (miniature loader with a scoop on the front) and hauled inside the plant to the rendering pit. The plant had 3 undocumented workers doing the labor, including running the bobcat. The pit was a concrete hole with sloped sides that was about 8 to 10 feet deep and it had four sides that were about 7 feet long. There was a small seam 1 inch wide about 4 feet down that ran all the way around the pit. This seam, as the ones in the corners, had several rat holes in them, so rats were living in the rendering pit. 
At the bottom of the pit was an auger grinder that ground the product and augured in out to a bin to be cooked. The cooker was in the back corner of the plant that took up about 1/3 of the building. After it was cooked, it was pressed to eliminate the remaining moisture. Then it was seperated into different products and shipped off to one of their other plants to be further processed and packaged. I asked where the finished product was sent to: they said it was shipped to several different pet food plants. It seems the corporation had several rendering plants and contracts with numerous pet food plants. Not only were dead animals that died who know how were rendered, but also live rats, a lot of rat droppings plus all the dirt and concrete fragments that were removed from the rat holes in the pit and piles of maggots. But "that was ok" because it was just going for the pet food. What they were concerned about was the constant maintenance that the rats were causing by digging holes in the concrete and chewing through hoses and electric lines. 
Maintenance expenses were getting too high and something had to be done. That is why they called me. it took a couple months, and several buckets of dead rats, but I did take care of their rat problem. In the meantime I found out that were a lot of the dead animals and other scaps and pieces came from. There were dead cows, pigs, horses, chickens various road kill, packaged meat from local supermarkets and waste from restaurants and fast food places. The most sickening thing that I saw was trucks that come from chicken farms. I call them chicken prisons that were supposedly full of dead chickens. When they were dumped, 90% of the chickens were dead, however there was always a few that were still alive, if you could call that alive. They were mostly featherless and staggering around obviously sick and dying. The picked them up and threw them into the pit alive to be ground up with the rest of the dump. Most of the cattle from the feed lots and farmers had plastic ear tags impregnated with Dursban or other insecticides that were places there to ward off flies. These tags were not removed, they were ground up with the cattles and the plastic and styrofoam containers that spoiled and rotten meat from the supermarkets came in. When I asked about the ear tags and the plastic and styrofoam they said that they could not afford to pay someone to remove them or unpackage the spoiled meats from the supermarkets. "Besides, they would be eliminated from the end products through rendering process.". 

The point of this is that when you see meat byproducts listed on the label of your pet food, this could be what you could be feeding your pet. So when you see this on the label, I would encourage you to think twice about purchasing the product."


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## SilverBeat (Jan 16, 2011)

Unosmom said:


> " the plant was out in the middle of an open field and except fir a 15 foot parameter around the building, the weeds were waist to neck high. I entered the plant on a dirt drive that went up to a concrete parking slab in the front of the building;in front of the office door and a large overhead foor. The dirt drive went around one side of the building to the back where there was a concrete dump area with an overhead door going into the building. The concrete slab was sloped away from the building with a curb on both sides so that they could wash down the area. This is where the dead animals, parts and pieces of animals and other things to be rendered or processed were dumped. Between the dirt drive area and the building was junk parts and equipment piled up that obviously house a large colony of rats as you would see their trails in and out of the junk piles. The other dumping ground or machine parts, etc, out back was also full of rats. The concrete pad in the back where trucks dumped their loads had rat holes lining the curb that ran along the sides.
> As you might imagine this area was loaded with flies; the piles of products were alive with maggots. It made it look like the whole pile of product was alive and moving. After the loads were dumped they were picked up by a bobcat (miniature loader with a scoop on the front) and hauled inside the plant to the rendering pit. The plant had 3 undocumented workers doing the labor, including running the bobcat. The pit was a concrete hole with sloped sides that was about 8 to 10 feet deep and it had four sides that were about 7 feet long. There was a small seam 1 inch wide about 4 feet down that ran all the way around the pit. This seam, as the ones in the corners, had several rat holes in them, so rats were living in the rendering pit.
> At the bottom of the pit was an auger grinder that ground the product and augured in out to a bin to be cooked. The cooker was in the back corner of the plant that took up about 1/3 of the building. After it was cooked, it was pressed to eliminate the remaining moisture. Then it was seperated into different products and shipped off to one of their other plants to be further processed and packaged. I asked where the finished product was sent to: they said it was shipped to several different pet food plants. It seems the corporation had several rendering plants and contracts with numerous pet food plants. Not only were dead animals that died who know how were rendered, but also live rats, a lot of rat droppings plus all the dirt and concrete fragments that were removed from the rat holes in the pit and piles of maggots. But "that was ok" because it was just going for the pet food. What they were concerned about was the constant maintenance that the rats were causing by digging holes in the concrete and chewing through hoses and electric lines.
> Maintenance expenses were getting too high and something had to be done. That is why they called me. it took a couple months, and several buckets of dead rats, but I did take care of their rat problem. In the meantime I found out that were a lot of the dead animals and other scaps and pieces came from. There were dead cows, pigs, horses, chickens various road kill, packaged meat from local supermarkets and waste from restaurants and fast food places. The most sickening thing that I saw was trucks that come from chicken farms. I call them chicken prisons that were supposedly full of dead chickens. When they were dumped, 90% of the chickens were dead, however there was always a few that were still alive, if you could call that alive. They were mostly featherless and staggering around obviously sick and dying. The picked them up and threw them into the pit alive to be ground up with the rest of the dump. Most of the cattle from the feed lots and farmers had plastic ear tags impregnated with Dursban or other insecticides that were places there to ward off flies. These tags were not removed, they were ground up with the cattles and the plastic and styrofoam containers that spoiled and rotten meat from the supermarkets came in. When I asked about the ear tags and the plastic and styrofoam they said that they could not afford to pay someone to remove them or unpackage the spoiled meats from the supermarkets. "Besides, they would be eliminated from the end products through rendering process.".
> ...


1. I'm a combination of hopelessly sad/fuming angry that this kind of thing exists.

2. I'm really glad that I don't feed that to my dog.


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## Paws&Tails (Sep 3, 2010)

Unosmom said:


> I just finished reading this book, most of it was nothing new to me, but still some pretty disgusting information that I wished I did have to hear. What I found interesting is that its illegal to use diseased animals in pet food according to the FDA, yet its a common practice. In the book theres an excerpt taken from a personal account by pest control operator documenting what he saw at a rendering facility. Hopefully I can share it here:
> 
> " the plant was out in the middle of an open field and except fir a 15 foot parameter around the building, the weeds were waist to neck high. I entered the plant on a dirt drive that went up to a concrete parking slab in the front of the building;in front of the office door and a large overhead foor. The dirt drive went around one side of the building to the back where there was a concrete dump area with an overhead door going into the building. The concrete slab was sloped away from the building with a curb on both sides so that they could wash down the area. This is where the dead animals, parts and pieces of animals and other things to be rendered or processed were dumped. Between the dirt drive area and the building was junk parts and equipment piled up that obviously house a large colony of rats as you would see their trails in and out of the junk piles. The other dumping ground or machine parts, etc, out back was also full of rats. The concrete pad in the back where trucks dumped their loads had rat holes lining the curb that ran along the sides.
> As you might imagine this area was loaded with flies; the piles of products were alive with maggots. It made it look like the whole pile of product was alive and moving. After the loads were dumped they were picked up by a bobcat (miniature loader with a scoop on the front) and hauled inside the plant to the rendering pit. The plant had 3 undocumented workers doing the labor, including running the bobcat. The pit was a concrete hole with sloped sides that was about 8 to 10 feet deep and it had four sides that were about 7 feet long. There was a small seam 1 inch wide about 4 feet down that ran all the way around the pit. This seam, as the ones in the corners, had several rat holes in them, so rats were living in the rendering pit.
> ...


It's when I read things like this that make me angry, yet I feel completely helpless and disappointed. Angry that this is allowed. Angry that a good majority of people nowadays just don't care enough anymore to think twice of how wrong this is. :frown:


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## RaisingWolves (Mar 19, 2011)

Unosmom said:


> I just finished reading this book, most of it was nothing new to me, but still some pretty disgusting information that I wished I did have to hear. What I found interesting is that its illegal to use diseased animals in pet food according to the FDA, yet its a common practice. In the book theres an excerpt taken from a personal account by pest control operator documenting what he saw at a rendering facility. Hopefully I can share it here:
> 
> " the plant was out in the middle of an open field and except fir a 15 foot parameter around the building, the weeds were waist to neck high. I entered the plant on a dirt drive that went up to a concrete parking slab in the front of the building;in front of the office door and a large overhead foor. The dirt drive went around one side of the building to the back where there was a concrete dump area with an overhead door going into the building. The concrete slab was sloped away from the building with a curb on both sides so that they could wash down the area. This is where the dead animals, parts and pieces of animals and other things to be rendered or processed were dumped. Between the dirt drive area and the building was junk parts and equipment piled up that obviously house a large colony of rats as you would see their trails in and out of the junk piles. The other dumping ground or machine parts, etc, out back was also full of rats. The concrete pad in the back where trucks dumped their loads had rat holes lining the curb that ran along the sides.
> As you might imagine this area was loaded with flies; the piles of products were alive with maggots. It made it look like the whole pile of product was alive and moving. After the loads were dumped they were picked up by a bobcat (miniature loader with a scoop on the front) and hauled inside the plant to the rendering pit. The plant had 3 undocumented workers doing the labor, including running the bobcat. The pit was a concrete hole with sloped sides that was about 8 to 10 feet deep and it had four sides that were about 7 feet long. There was a small seam 1 inch wide about 4 feet down that ran all the way around the pit. This seam, as the ones in the corners, had several rat holes in them, so rats were living in the rendering pit.
> ...



This makes me cry thinking of all the poor animals who are fed this toxic sludge. Slowly poisoning their body while owners are told this is "Healthy & Balanced". 
I agree with Paws&Talk, how can people do this and not think twice about it? I couldn't live with myself.


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## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

And THAT is why I feel like I have been horrible to my dogs. Doesn't matter if I knew it or not. I like to think I am a basically intelligent person, yet I am not so sure when I think of how many bags of dog food I bought that had "byproducts" listed.

Edited to add: I'm just read the analysis of Pedigree. You're right, it's nothing to write home about. I'm not sure why I thought that it is ok.


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## RaisingWolves (Mar 19, 2011)

I was curious to see if Hills has byproducts listed because so many vets swear by this food. I know our vet's waiting room is lined with Science and JD.:wacko: It has byproducts listed on the label!:tsk:
I wonder what it means when you see chicken byproducts? Does this mean it's filled with chicken poop as pictured in the "Roasted Ass" article? :yuck:


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## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

These are the first four ingredients in the Hills w/d formula the emergency vet and I have had such big arguments about (and in fact what led me to this board)

Ground Whole Grain Corn, Powdered Cellulose, Peanut Hulls, Chicken by-product Meal

Apparently cellolose is sawdust - I thought before it was probably the husks and stems of corn, but I guess not.

How in the h*&l can he look me in the eye and say that's a good food?

Even BEFORE I got here, I knew that was a load of crap.

Byproducts are everything that's not fit to eat - including feathers and poop. I guess they throw feet and beaks in there, which I guess is ok for dogs. And now, we see that the byproducts include rats, concrete, etc.


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## Dude and Bucks Mamma (May 14, 2011)

This just amazes me. For me, the fact that a rendering plant gets everything not fit for human consumption is enough to make me feed raw. I only started a couple of months ago, but had toyed with the idea of raw for a long time. I just felt like I didn't know enough about it to do it right. The pictures of people feeding their dogs on here is what made me finally do it. 

I fed my boy Pedigree for 7 1/2 years. He is the picture of health, but that is probably only due to the exercise he has always gotten. His insides are probably a different story! I was only in 8th grade when I got him so what did I know. The point is, we, in a way, WERE terrible owners because we didn't bother to find out what we were feeding them. How many people REALLY read labels when buying dog food? I never did. Now, my husband and I make a game out of kibble. When we go to Walmart or Petsmart or really any place that sells kibble, we see who can find both the best and the worst brand in the store via labels.


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## DoglovingSenior (Jun 26, 2011)

Isn't "meal" the way that the mad cow thing got out of hand. Those cows were eating other animals as "meal"? How can any slightly intelligent adult or almost adult think that this is healthy?
I was surprised to learn that while our dogs can survive on vegan meals, albeit not healthily, cats the true carnivores cannot. There was a story on this lady in NYC who was honestly trying to help dogs & cats and tried to convert them all to vegans. Some of the cats did not survive-the dogs weren't in the best condition but they lived.


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## Dude and Bucks Mamma (May 14, 2011)

I don't know, but why is vegan dog food even a thing? I read about it somewhere on PETA, I think. I'll see if I can find the link.


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## sozzle (May 18, 2011)

My friend's dog when catching a bird including a chicken eats the feathers as well?
I heard that about rendering euthanised animals in the USA - don't know what happens here, I wonder how I would find out?
I don't feed commercial petfood only raw but know plenty of people that do!


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