# Well, we're back on kibble again



## CorgiPaws

Raw in my apartment proved to be far too difficult. No space to store. No space to prepare. No space to feed. And if I'm being totally honest, keeping the freezers in my living room to make it work, was a disaster from the start, and left me with absolutely no floor space and made the room unusable. 

But in order to save up and get into a house with a yard next year, this is what we had to do. 

So, my girls are on kibble. I guess that's why I haven't been posting as much, I didn't want to admit it. I'm jipping them in a lot of ways, and maybe I should have rented a larger space, or kept the freezers in my living room, but the price on this place is right, and I had very little time to find a place to live.

I tried Annie on EVO, and gave it a month, but it was the worst train wreck ever, and I couldn't do the 5 potty breaks in the middle of the night anymore. She's since been on Canidae Grain Free Salmon Meal, but I'm not really happy with it.. so putting her on TOTW Wetlands when my order comes in Wednesday. 

Zailey is on Chicken Soup Adult. 

Both get canned food every night, and i rotate just about everything good. Merrick, Addiction, Wellness Core, Evo, Tiki Dog, Ziwi Peak, Tripett, Merrick BG...



Neither dog is doing terrible, by any means. I sure do miss raw poop, though.. and Annie does in fact smell like a dog again, which is super annoying. Their teeth look fine, but they're still getting beef ribs to nom on. 

I'm not "ashamed" by feeding them kibble... but I'm certainly not proud of it. But I felt the need to disclose it, so any further posts make sense.


So there you have it, a kibble-feeding Mod!!:tongue:


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## whiteleo

Couldn't you have at least given them Acana! LOL


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## CorgiPaws

whiteleo said:


> Couldn't you have at least given them Acana! LOL


Nope, we don't carry Acana, it's too hard to get in my area. 
My business eats the cost of my food.


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## DaneMama

I totally understand your situation...it sucks but you have to do what you have to do. The thing that really matters is that you *would * feed raw if the situation is appropriate. Your dogs are lucky to have you!


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## CorgiPaws

danemama08 said:


> I totally understand your situation...it sucks but you have to do what you have to do. The thing that really matters is that you *would * feed raw if the situation is appropriate. Your dogs are lucky to have you!


Thanks. :tongue:
Getting my family into a house next year is the best thing I can do for ALL of us in so many ways.


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## Ania's Mommy

Jeeze, that really sucks. But you gotta do what you gotta do. And in your case, that is still a million times more than a lot of other dog owners. I agree with Natalie; your girls are lucky to have you. :smile:


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## meggels

Ania's Mommy said:


> Jeeze, that really sucks. But you gotta do what you gotta do. And in your case, that is still a million times more than a lot of other dog owners. I agree with Natalie; your girls are lucky to have you. :smile:


ditto!!!! It could definitely be worse, everyone here knows you're an amazing dog mom!


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## rannmiller

Well shucks, if you're gonna be admitting things then so will I! Peyton is now on half raw, half kibble. There, I said it! 

The reason being is that she was pretty darn skinny on just raw and whenever I tried adding another raw meal to her day to fatten her up, she'd just end up with midnight cannon butt which got really old really fast. So I very begrudgingly started giving her two cups of BB Wilderness Duck Formula as her nighttime meal and her stools firmed up and she started filling out very nicely so no one thinks I abuse her anymore (she's still not fat by any stretch of the imagination though). 

However, her stools are now sporadically loose but mostly solid so I think after this bag I'm gonna try her on full raw again and see if that helps matters. The important thing is that she no longer has midnight cannon-butt, really. And she looks gorgeous. 

However, Penny and Milo are still on full raw and absolutely thriving on it, so no kibble for them!


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## luvMyBRT

Don't feel bad! You have to do what you have to do. We all know that you love your dogs and do the very best for them. I know they will be back on raw when things are easier and more convenient. Give your pups a hug from me! :smile:


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## wags

No biggie feeding kibble! Some of us do it all the time!:biggrin: With all the different varieties your pups will do great!. Then you can go back to raw after house shopping and buying! Good Luck on the house shopping! That can be fun and not fun! I have done this a while back( gee a long while back LOL) and loved looking then got sick of looking then finally got the house I wanted for the price I wanted thats when its really nice!


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## ubershann

I don't think anyone should feel bad about feeding kibble. It's like feeling bad that I can't send my daughter to the top private school. As long as they're doing well and you're doing your best then things are good :smile:

I live in a condo and don't do PMR. I buy about a week's worth of meat at a time and store it in my regular freezer. I also just cut the meat up and put it in Tiki's dish, so there isn't any mess. I add in a couple other things like cottage cheese, some veggies, and her supplement (she gets that no matter what I feed her). If you really want to feed raw but don't have the room for storage and mess of PMR the way I feed is very simple and doesn't take any extra room or cause any kind of mess. And she's incredibly healthy so I know she's getting exactly what she needs.


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## jdatwood

ubershann said:


> If you really want to feed raw but don't have the room for storage and mess of PMR the way I feed is very simple and doesn't take any extra room or cause any kind of mess.


I just don't see Linsey giving her carnivore cottage cheese and veggies... just sayin


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## DaneMama

ubershann said:


> I live in a condo and don't do PMR. I buy about a week's worth of meat at a time and store it in my regular freezer. I also just cut the meat up and put it in Tiki's dish, so there isn't any mess. I add in a couple other things like cottage cheese, some veggies, and her supplement (she gets that no matter what I feed her). If you really want to feed raw but don't have the room for storage and mess of PMR the way I feed is very simple and doesn't take any extra room or cause any kind of mess. And she's incredibly healthy so I know she's getting exactly what she needs.


I know that Linsey will forgive me for taking this off topic...so here it goes...

What *exactly* do you feed your dog? I just want to know, just in case you come here with a question or something....because you always post up saying that you feed raw, but say that you don't do PMR. Sounds to me like you do BARF? I'm merely curious...

I just want to mention that a dog can survive and appear to be healthy on just about any diet, but for a dog to thrive is a whole different story. What exactly do you know your dog needs? Does she *need* cottage cheese? And why do you feel that she needs cottage cheese...when dogs are lactose intolerant?

Why do you feel that PMR is so much more messy and time consuming? To me logic says that adding things other than RMBs to the daily routine increases time and effort and money and mess. Not to mention you *have* to make sure you're covering all your bases with supplements to make sure the diet is complete. If you did do PMR, you could get the same meat you get now, some kind of digestible bone for your dog (pork ribs) and a small container of organ meat for a week at the grocery store, store it in your freezer and call it good. Knowing without a doubt that all the bases are covered (assuming you feed a good variety of meats...). Feeding out on your patio, means little to no clean up or on the kitchen floor which means little clean up that would probably be comparable to cleaning a dog bowl every night. 

Sorry, the curious cat within me is just wanting answers :wink:


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## Doc

Oh my ... confession is good for the soul! LOL I am still feeding HK and raw. My are doing well, but you are right, putting mass on a dog seems to be a challenge on a strictly raw diet.

For those who have been forced to kibble ... I still luv y'all.:smile:


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## Jodysmom

Doc said:


> Oh my ... confession is good for the soul! LOL I am still feeding HK and raw. My are doing well, but you are right, putting mass on a dog seems to be a challenge on a strictly raw diet.
> 
> For those who have been forced to kibble ... I still luv y'all.:smile:


I actually had the opposite problem. I was feeding my rescued, underweight German Shepherd kibble and I couldn't get any weight on her. I tried Innova w/grains, EVO without grains,dehydrated...small portions, larger portions..she would just poop it all out. It took a Prey Modey Raw diet to finally put weight on her. Now she is at a perfect weight eliminates only once a day as opposed to several times a day of kibble.


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## magicre

you do what you gotta do.....that's what they say in the hood.

no guilt. no shame.


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## kevin bradley

man guys. the tone of this thread makes me feel like I'm abusing my Dogs feeding Acana and Orijen :redface:


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## CorgiPaws

jdatwood said:


> I just don't see Linsey giving her carnivore cottage cheese and veggies... just sayin


Haha, you're spot on, Jon. 




kevin bradley said:


> man guys. the tone of this thread makes me feel like I'm abusing my Dogs feeding Acana and Orijen :redface:


Oh no, that wasn't my intention! It's just that when you've already seen and reaped the benefits of a PMR diet for your dogs, doing back to commercial dog foods is disappointing. Not because it's abuse... but simply because it's not what I personally believe is best for my dogs. That's all. 
I think we all know your dogs are very loved and certainly not abused!:biggrin:


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## kevin bradley

oh, I know what you meant, Linsey. I was just funnin' ya. 

I tend to lean towards agreeing that real/raw food is the ideal. I've been adding real chicken and eggs to my guys food lately... certainly not a full raw/real food diet though.


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## ubershann

danemama08 said:


> What *exactly* do you feed your dog? I just want to know, just in case you come here with a question or something....because you always post up saying that you feed raw, but say that you don't do PMR. Sounds to me like you do BARF? I'm merely curious...


I feed what I've found through my own research to be the best diet for my dog. I hope you can understand that because the raw thinking in this forum is *highly* swayed in the direction of PMR, I don't really want to get into what I feed and why I choose to feed it. I've felt attacked many times in here because I don't always agree with the popular opinion. I will say this, what she eats is almost all meat, with a couple other things added in (spoonfuls, not large amounts). PMR is fine, but I don't think it's the only healthy or "correct" way to feed raw, and it seems in here that anyone choosing to do anything other than that is bullied (often in a somewhat passive aggressive way) until they agree. I do feed raw, and I do not feed PMR or BARF. I feed what works for us, what my dog does very well on, and what I feel is healthy (through a lot of research, not just my opinion or what I think humans should eat).



> I just want to mention that a dog can survive and appear to be healthy on just about any diet, but for a dog to thrive is a whole different story.


I'm sorry to seem a little sensitive here, but please don't insinuate my dog is not thriving because I choose to feed a different way than most of the raw feeders here. Why is it that there is an overall opinion here that if a dog is not on PMR they are not thriving? That there is no way they could do anything but be passable if they are not eating PMR. In fact, I've seen it stated that dogs who eat kibble are suffering, which is backed by what? An opinion? The people stating these things have never even come into contact with the dogs they are talking about. I understand we all want to feel we are making the best decisions for our dogs, but it doesn't have to be at the expense of those who make different choices. 



> Why do you feel that PMR is so much more messy and time consuming? To me logic says that adding things other than RMBs to the daily routine increases time and effort and money and mess.


I was actually going by what the original poster said. And honestly, logic says that if I can feed in a bowl, while the other choice must be fed in a special area such as the patio, then my way is less messy. 



> Not to mention you *have* to make sure you're covering all your bases with supplements to make sure the diet is complete.


The supplements she gets have nothing to do with how I feed her. She was getting those before I switched to raw, and I don't feed them to "cover my bases".

I'm sorry if this comes across as me being over-sensitive, and maybe I am being that way. From what I've seen written to both myself and others it seems that those who choose not to feed PMR are basically considered to be making a horrible choice for their dog. There are no studies out there saying that is the way you must feed a dog and everything else is inferior, and before I start getting a bunch of responses that say "I don't need any studies to show my dog is getting the best diet, he is a carnivore," well first, I'm sorry but anecdotal evidence will only take me so far. And I don't know how the observation of a dog on raw and another on kibble will ultimately be able to tell you which one is "thriving" without doing further studies such as bloodwork, etc. You can not know how the dogs are doing inside without a medical workup and a long period of time. Also, I will admit that I feel dogs are scavengers. While meat is their primary diet they will scavenge for whatever they can find. I also use my own logic (which is how many of you formed your opinions about PMR) to look at the origin of each type of dog. While wolves may be gung ho about taking down a deer and eating it, dogs are not wolves. Yes, they are very highly related, but they are not exactly the same. 

Before I go on even more of a tirade and inevitably stick my foot even further into my mouth I'll just leave it at this. Basically science is always changing, the "facts" we know today may be proven wrong tomorrow. I mean, the world was flat once upon a time :wink: So through my own research and my own logic I feed my dog a diet that I feel is healthy for her. I also feed in a way that works for us (sorry, the patio eating thing wouldn't work for us). I understand that many dogs do very well on PMR and I think that's great. I would never try to insult someone who has made that choice and I would never try to tell them my way is better. I have, however, encountered many PMR feeders who do not extend that same courtesy and feel it is ok to look down on all other types of feeding. I just wish they would take the time to actually see if there's reason to insult the person's way of feeding. If their dog is thriving (yes, it can happen off PMR) then why say they are doing anything wrong? Why does it have to be one side or the other? 

On a separate note, I love helping people on their quest to feed their dogs a healthy diet. Sometimes that means I help them pick out the best kibble, sometimes that means they're open to feeding raw. Most often though, I find they tell me PMR is not something they would consider. So does that mean I should tell them PMR or they might as well feed Purina? Not at all. I will help them find the best option they can because that means their dog is that much better off than before. I don't think there's only one right way to do this, I think there's room for many correct opinions. I certainly don't want to scare anyone off of raw feeding because they don't like one particular way of feeding.


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## Ania's Mommy

I am glad that the raw feeding group has diversified a bit. Although I feed PMR, I am always interested in how others go about their raw diet. There are so many different ways... I feed the way that works best for me and what *I* feel is most appropriate. And I know that everyone of this forum (kibble and raw alike) does the same. Thanks for taking the time to respond, Uber.:smile:


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## CorgiPaws

Ubershann-
I am terribly sorry you've felt bullied here. :frown:
I think it's great that you feed what you feel works best for your dogs, as well as for you. Most dog owners would not be putting forth the effort that you are. I think that what you're doing is great.
Do i think that PMR is the absolute best? YES, I do. but as I know all too well, it's not always ideal for everyone's situation for whatever reason. Be it a space/ time dilemma (my situation) or be that the individual has something working better for their dogs. Fact of the matter is, NOT everyone is going to or willing to feed PMR, and I think it's important that in those situations, we help eachother make the best choices possible, within our own limitations. :biggrin:
I think that while the majority of raw feeders on this forum have gone the PMR route, I very much so value the experience and advice of people who use other methods, including BARF and various personal variations of raw feeding.. as well as homecookers! I wish we had a bigger homecooking community here. I'm in a position with my job, that I come in contact with pet owners looking for something better, but aren't willing to do PMR, and I wish I knew more about everything else...


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## ubershann

Thanks guys :smile: I don't want anyone to think I am in any way against PMR, I think it's a wonderful choice. I just feel like it's not the only choice and sometimes there can be a group mentality that anything else is inferior. It's fine to feel that way, but when I first came here I almost left because of the my-way-or-the-highway responses I saw (not just to me). I think everyone here seems to want the best for their dog, and all of you seem to be great people (aside from just dog feeding), so I hope no one thinks I take a personal dislike to them when I voice a different opinion. 

I value the information I get here, even if I don't follow the same feeding structure as many of the raw feeders on this site :smile: I just think sometimes the PMR-or-your-dog-is-not-really-doing-well sentiment could be toned down a little


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## moon

We also feed kibble and raw. I'm glad to see others do the same. This summer we've been watching the coyotes and coydogs around here. We've seen the remains of the things they've caught and eaten (or not eaten)... We can sit on the top of the hill and watch them on the lowgrounds with binoculars. Besides meat, we've seen them eat blueberries, blackberries and sweet grass (they never touched the corn, wheat or soybeans though). 

For myself, I've decided a good kibble and raw rotating is the best of both worlds.:wink::smile:


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## kevin bradley

For me it comes down to this...I'll use an analogy...

Would I be ANY healthier if I exercised every day, ate ALL Fruits and Vegetables, ate little to no fat, ate only lean meat and fish, slept 9 hours per night...etc...

yeah, in all likelihood I would be healthier. Would I LIVE longer? Hell, I don't know. Maybe. Maybe it wouldn't matter much at all. 

And with Kibble, I'm not sure we're talking perfect health vs. eating McDonald's every day when we make the comparison. Maybe we're talking eating all organic vs. conventional with raw vs. high quality kibble. 

The hard part is I cannot find any conclusive study that tells me for certain it is superior. 

Yeah, it sounds logical that it is. Certainly. And MY instinct tells me raw/real food IS probably better for our Dogs. Am I CERTAIN? No, not even close really.


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## ubershann

kevin bradley said:


> yeah, in all likelihood I would be healthier. Would I LIVE longer? Hell, I don't know. Maybe.


Very good point. At the end of the day we don't know what the lifespan would have been feeding a different choice. (if that makes sense)

I remember when I was in my early teens and my friend's father died. He was in his very early 40s, exercised regularly, took vitamins daily, ate a healthy diet, and generally took very good care of himself and was in great health. One day, walking through an airport, he suddenly had a heart attack and died. I realized then there's only so much you can do and sometimes it doesn't matter anyway. 



> And with Kibble, I'm not sure we're talking perfect health vs. eating McDonald's every day when we make the comparison. Maybe we're talking eating all organic vs. conventional with raw vs. high quality kibble.


Exactly! 



> The hard part is I cannot find any conclusive study that tells me for certain it is superior.
> 
> Yeah, it sounds logical that it is. Certainly. And MY instinct tells me raw/real food IS probably better for our Dogs. Am I CERTAIN? No, not even close really.


That's why I refuse to look down my nose at kibble feeders and would not feel bad if I had to go back to kibble. Of course I'm talking about high quality kibble of course. It seems that a lot of the "evidence" is that people see their dogs are healthy and thriving on raw. Well since there are no major studies done, especially long term ones, why can't a dog owner who feeds kibble say the same thing about their dog? That their dog is healthy, energetic, shiny, has white teeth, and no medical problems. I feel anytime that claim is made by a kibble feeder there are those who say the dog really isn't doing as well as it seems, that on the inside things aren't so good. And every time I see a statement like that I want to call poppycock :wink:


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## kevin bradley

Another point...

The study would be one helluva difficult study to perform. 

Why? 

Because you've got other variables inflicting the issue. Take Nat and Jon(just fixed my spelling. Sorry Jon, hopefully you didn't see it ...who feed their Dogs Raw pretty exclusively I believe. My guess is that their Dogs have a pretty stellar life. They probably sleep in a climate controlled environment(to say the least ...they probably have little to no stresses in their lives, fed regularly, whatever meds they need...etc...

(I'm going to make some assumptions here, so forgive me if I'm ignorant on anything)...
My point is this... MOST people who feed raw are just inherently very, very dedicated to their Dogs. Saying they give them the perfect life is probably even an understatement. 

My point? EVEN if we had a Raw fed Dog that lived forever, it would be difficult to say that was THE reason. Because they were probably very well cared for in MANY aspects of their life. 

Hoping my point makes sense.


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## DaneMama

Ubershann- (Or do you want to be called Shannon???)

I can totally see how us PMRers can be a bit overwhelming just because that is the sheer majority of raw feeders on here. But I don't believe that a single one of us here is going to put you down for what you feed. That just wouldn't be fair OR polite. What we will do, is disagree on what we think is best. THAT is perfectly ok! I don't think anyone on here feeds raw *exactly* the same way as anyone else. We all do things a bit different, but with the same ideals in mind. We all live harmoniously :biggrin:

I will say that all LOT of the people that I refer here do feed PMR because that is what I believe in. You are absolutely welcome to refer as many people here AND promote what you believe in. Since you absolutely believe that what you're doing is the best thing that you can provide, stand up for it! Have confidence enough to tell people what you feed and WHY! That is what we all do here, one of the main purposes of this site. You say that you don't want to tell us exactly what you feed so you wont be judged, but you don't realize that you *can't* help others believe what you believe unless you do. Stand up for what you believe!!! 



ubershann said:


> I feed what I've found through my own research to be the best diet for my dog. I hope you can understand that because the raw thinking in this forum is *highly* swayed in the direction of PMR, I don't really want to get into what I feed and why I choose to feed it. I've felt attacked many times in here because I don't always agree with the popular opinion. I will say this, what she eats is almost all meat, with a couple other things added in (spoonfuls, not large amounts). PMR is fine, but I don't think it's the only healthy or "correct" way to feed raw, and it seems in here that anyone choosing to do anything other than that is bullied (often in a somewhat passive aggressive way) until they agree. I do feed raw, and I do not feed PMR or BARF. I feed what works for us, what my dog does very well on, and what I feel is healthy (through a lot of research, not just my opinion or what I think humans should eat).


This is great! But I want you to stand up for what you believe and talk about it! I wont let people be insulting or put you down. What I will allow, is people to disagree with you and engage in healthy debate. Challenging you to WHY you believe what you believe. If you truly believe that the way you feed raw is another great way to use raw, then you should have no issue promoting it! You may be surprised at the response you get. Since you have done the research to form your opinions you shouldn't have any problems backing yourself up.



> I'm sorry to seem a little sensitive here, but please don't insinuate my dog is not thriving because I choose to feed a different way than most of the raw feeders here. Why is it that there is an overall opinion here that if a dog is not on PMR they are not thriving? That there is no way they could do anything but be passable if they are not eating PMR. In fact, I've seen it stated that dogs who eat kibble are suffering, which is backed by what? An opinion? The people stating these things have never even come into contact with the dogs they are talking about. I understand we all want to feel we are making the best decisions for our dogs, but it doesn't have to be at the expense of those who make different choices.


I wasn't at all insinuating that your dog in particular "appears" to be healthy, that was a broad statement to ALL dogs on any diet out there. Which absolutely applies to any PMR dog out there as well. I have done bloodwork on my dogs pre and post raw. Post raw (about a year and a half in) their bloodwork was better than pre raw days (they were eating EVO). 

I never said that a dog on any other diet other than PMR isn't thriving. I was merely stating that saying "my dog appears to be very healthy" isn't a great way to indicate overall health and longevity. A lot of the dogs that come into my work that eat crap kibble appear to be healthy. But are they really in the long run or overall? Maybe...maybe not. My personal experience is that my dogs are absolutely thriving on PMR rather than kibble. Since I'm a crossover to raw, I have the past experience of feeding kibble to base my dogs condition. 

I personally believe that dogs that are fed low quality, crap kibbles are suffering in whole body function. They may have very fulfilling lifestyles with owners that truly love them, but have no clue as to what they are doing to their dog's body and health. Dogs that are fed a higher quality diet are not necessarily suffering but just not getting an ideal diet (raw, in any shape or form). 

I also believe that any kind of raw diet, even BARF, is better than kibble. But I will never judge anyone by what they feed. Heck, some of my very good friends and family feed less than great kibbles but I don't judge them in the slightest. It actually hurts to be judged myself, so I don't do it to others.



> I was actually going by what the original poster said. And honestly, logic says that if I can feed in a bowl, while the other choice must be fed in a special area such as the patio, then my way is less messy.


We just feed outside, so no clean up or mess. 



> The supplements she gets have nothing to do with how I feed her. She was getting those before I switched to raw, and I don't feed them to "cover my bases".


So, why are you giving them?



> I'm sorry if this comes across as me being over-sensitive, and maybe I am being that way. From what I've seen written to both myself and others it seems that those who choose not to feed PMR are basically considered to be making a horrible choice for their dog. There are no studies out there saying that is the way you must feed a dog and everything else is inferior, and before I start getting a bunch of responses that say "I don't need any studies to show my dog is getting the best diet, he is a carnivore," well first, I'm sorry but anecdotal evidence will only take me so far. And I don't know how the observation of a dog on raw and another on kibble will ultimately be able to tell you which one is "thriving" without doing further studies such as bloodwork, etc. You can not know how the dogs are doing inside without a medical workup and a long period of time. Also, I will admit that I feel dogs are scavengers. While meat is their primary diet they will scavenge for whatever they can find. I also use my own logic (which is how many of you formed your opinions about PMR) to look at the origin of each type of dog. While wolves may be gung ho about taking down a deer and eating it, dogs are not wolves. Yes, they are very highly related, but they are not exactly the same.


Sensitivity is a personality trait. I am incredibly sensitive to what people say, but I don't let it get to me, especially from anonymous people on the internet. Take what they say for what its worth and let it go. Stand up for what you believe!!!

There are plenty of people out there that agree with you, and plenty of people who don't. But don't let the people who don't agree with you hold you back. I personally know that dogs are scavengers AND opportunistic carnivores. If they have a constant, plentiful supply of prey items or meat or carrion, they will eat that over the omnivorous things they can survive off of in times of scarcity. So, the way I see it...do you supply your dog with a plentiful diet of things they'd eat first if given the chance? Or do you supply the food items that they would eat in times of famine? I think the former is more appropriate to feed. We all have different reasons for what and why we feed the things we do. 



> Before I go on even more of a tirade and inevitably stick my foot even further into my mouth I'll just leave it at this. Basically science is always changing, the "facts" we know today may be proven wrong tomorrow. I mean, the world was flat once upon a time :wink: So through my own research and my own logic I feed my dog a diet that I feel is healthy for her. I also feed in a way that works for us (sorry, the patio eating thing wouldn't work for us). I understand that many dogs do very well on PMR and I think that's great. I would never try to insult someone who has made that choice and I would never try to tell them my way is better. I have, however, encountered many PMR feeders who do not extend that same courtesy and feel it is ok to look down on all other types of feeding. I just wish they would take the time to actually see if there's reason to insult the person's way of feeding. If their dog is thriving (yes, it can happen off PMR) then why say they are doing anything wrong? Why does it have to be one side or the other?


I don't want you to feel judged or bullied at all. Not my intent or anyone else's intent, although it *does* make ME feel incredibly judged to be lumped into a mass group of PMR people that go around insulting people for their choices. What do you feel we need to NOT say about PMR that we do say? I have yet to see true insults being thrown about on this forum, and when I do they are promptly taken care of.


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## DaneMama

Continued....



> On a separate note, I love helping people on their quest to feed their dogs a healthy diet. Sometimes that means I help them pick out the best kibble, sometimes that means they're open to feeding raw. Most often though, I find they tell me PMR is not something they would consider. So does that mean I should tell them PMR or they might as well feed Purina? Not at all. I will help them find the best option they can because that means their dog is that much better off than before. I don't think there's only one right way to do this, I think there's room for many correct opinions. I certainly don't want to scare anyone off of raw feeding because they don't like one particular way of feeding.


I think everyone here loves helping people make better choices for their dogs. I still recommend people feed kibble if they don't want to do raw or can't. But that isn't to say that you believe the way that you feed is best, right? So you will try and get people to feed raw your way first, right? And if they don't want to or feel comfortable with it, you go to the next best thing, right? This is what I do with people. I suggest feeding PMR style. They either want to or they don't, which is 100% ok with me (of course I'm ecstatic if they choose PMR, but can ya blame me? I'm sure they'd feel the same way if they chose your way...). Then I say, what about a premade type of raw? Or a high quality kibble? Or whatever....



> That's why I refuse to look down my nose at kibble feeders and would not feel bad if I had to go back to kibble. Of course I'm talking about high quality kibble of course. It seems that a lot of the "evidence" is that people see their dogs are healthy and thriving on raw. Well since there are no major studies done, especially long term ones, why can't a dog owner who feeds kibble say the same thing about their dog? That their dog is healthy, energetic, shiny, has white teeth, and no medical problems. I feel anytime that claim is made by a kibble feeder there are those who say the dog really isn't doing as well as it seems, that on the inside things aren't so good. And every time I see a statement like that I want to call poppycock :wink:


Who said that people who feed kibble can't say that their dog is thriving on a particular diet? No one here that I know of. There are those who believe that dogs fed any kind of kibble can't thrive, but that is just a difference of opinion...not the rules or the law here. People really do need to stand up for what they believe in no matter WHAT it is!!! 

With all this being said, I'm still disappointed that you won't say what exactly it is that you feed your dog. I really hope that you will change your mind about it....because to me (and I don't want this to sound/read wrong at all...) that you're not 100% confident in what you feed if you can't stand up for it and explain why you feed what you do. I guess I'm just frustrated because I want to know what other people do when they feed something other than PMR


----------



## DaneMama

kevin bradley said:


> Another point...
> 
> The study would be one helluva difficult study to perform.
> 
> Why?
> 
> Because you've got other variables inflicting the issue. Take Nat and Jon(just fixed my spelling. Sorry Jon, hopefully you didn't see it ...who feed their Dogs Raw pretty exclusively I believe. My guess is that their Dogs have a pretty stellar life. They probably sleep in a climate controlled environment(to say the least ...they probably have little to no stresses in their lives, fed regularly, whatever meds they need...etc...
> 
> (I'm going to make some assumptions here, so forgive me if I'm ignorant on anything)...
> My point is this... MOST people who feed raw are just inherently very, very dedicated to their Dogs. Saying they give them the perfect life is probably even an understatement.
> 
> My point? EVEN if we had a Raw fed Dog that lived forever, it would be difficult to say that was THE reason. Because they were probably very well cared for in MANY aspects of their life.
> 
> Hoping my point makes sense.


Your point totally makes sense. But here it goes...

First off, no one would ever fund a study done on raw. WHY? Because there is NO money in it. Because most raw feeders just buy their meat at the grocery store. The dog food industry is a billion dollar industry....and they would fight to get it shut down. They wouldn't want the loss in profits because I think most of them know that they are feeding dogs as cheaply and effectively as possible. Someone's gotta make the money!

Second, IF a study was done on raw vs kibble it would have to be a HUGE study. It would have to incorporate thousands of dogs of all different breeds, weaned as puppies onto all the different styles of raw feeding (PMR, BARF, etc.) and a spectrum of "qualities" of kibble (grain free, grain inclusive, crap, etc). Because a study done on ONE style of raw feeding vs ONE type of kibble wouldn't be conclusive in any way, shape or form. Not to mention this study would take upwards of 20+ years since some dogs will naturally live longer than others.

One could try and get a case history study going, but who has the time or the funding for that? Maybe if I win the lottery....


----------



## moon

Sorry for butting in the middle of the conversation, but wouldn't zoos have done studies like this to find the most economical way to feed their wolves?? I seem to remember back in the 70's some people were questioning because many wolves were being fed kibble in zoos back then...


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## DaneMama

It depends on the zoo. All of them feed different things...I know that some feed kibble, raw or both. But I don't know a whole lot about which ones do what....


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## moon

I was just coming back after googling to say some still do feed kibble... Some feed both raw and kibble, some feed all raw - just like us! lol!


_edited to add_ The Smithsonian National Zoo Diet for wolves: Dry kibble dog food made for wild canines, plus treats of chicks, mice, hard-boiled eggs, and oxtail bones.

I wonder what dry kibble "made for wild canines" is?


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## Guest

CorgiPaws said:


> So, my girls are on kibble.
> 
> So there you have it, a kibble-feeding Mod!!:tongue:



That's not such a bad thing at all. I know you are giving your girls the very best you possibly can offer them for the time being. Every dog owner should do the same --- feed their dog(s) the very best they possibly can, whether it is kibble, canned, homecooked, premade raw, or PMR.

There's nothing to be ashamed of. You've got a lot of support on this Forum.:smile:


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## BrownieM

kevin bradley said:


> man guys. the tone of this thread makes me feel like I'm abusing my Dogs feeding Acana and Orijen :redface:


Agreed! 

*Ubershann*, thanks for sharing. I like hearing the different ways other people feed raw.

I feed my dogs 50% premade raw and 50% high quality kibble. I have to admit that I mostly lurk and only occasionally post on this forum because I also feel intimidated and threatened by the very clear "popular" opinion that PMR is the only acceptable way to feed. I also sense a very passive aggressive tone by many people on this thread and honestly, it is not a comfortable place for me to be.

I care for my dogs very much and feed them high quality kibbles like Acana and Instinct as well as Instinct raw medallions. I feel that I am taking excellent care of my dogs even though I do not feed PMR. Heck, how many breeders and pet owners and probably veterinarians feed their dogs low quality foods like iams, pedigree, etc? It is disheartening to come onto a forum where there is clearly no point in discussing food unless I agree to change my dogs to PMR.


----------



## ubershann

danemama08 said:


> Ubershann- (Or do you want to be called Shannon???)


Lol! Shannon would be fine :biggrin:



> What we will do, is disagree on what we think is best. THAT is perfectly ok!


I agree, that is perfectly ok. I guess it's the statements that insinuate a dog is somehow not doing well, or as well as they should be, because they are not being fed PMR is what I don't like. Especially when the dogs being talked about are generally not seen by anyone but the owner. Giving information about what one chooses to do is perfectly fine, but giving it while saying someone else's choice is not really healthy is not. I guess I'm trying to say that because one does not choose to feed PMR does not mean that one has not done their research and picked the choice they find to be the healthiest.



> Since you absolutely believe that what you're doing is the best thing that you can provide, stand up for it! Have confidence enough to tell people what you feed and WHY!


The why is very simple. Because through my research I believe what I'm feeding is the healthiest diet for her. I'm guessing that's the same reason the PMR feeders choose PMR. There's no secret reason, it's a conclusion I made after gathering information from many sources. 




> This is great! But I want you to stand up for what you believe and talk about it!


I've had no problems doing that so far :biggrin: But again, the reason I chose what I did is the same as those who choose PMR. There's no one particular study or reason, it's an accumulation of everything I've learned. If someone wants to challenge me on some part of it that's fine, but they need to be able to back up their side as well. Telling me that veggies give dogs absolutely no nutrients because wolves leave the stomachs untouched does not prove that to me. The burden of proof goes both ways :wink:



> I never said that a dog on any other diet other than PMR isn't thriving. I was merely stating that saying "my dog appears to be very healthy" isn't a great way to indicate overall health and longevity.


I agree. But unless a health problem arises there is no reason to assume a dog not fed PMR is not thriving, and without a need to go to a vet then we run into the problem of having to rely on what we see on the outside, and what we can tell from our knowledge of our own dogs. 




> So, why are you giving them?


I was giving Tiki supplements before we went to raw, mainly for joints. But the type I get is mixed in with a daily multi-vitamin (for lack of a better term) and I can't see that it would hurt her to give her vitamins, just like humans take. I probably could stop giving them to her, but I would rather keep her on the joint supplement and am happy to know she'll get additional benefits as well.



> So, the way I see it...do you supply your dog with a plentiful diet of things they'd eat first if given the chance?


Tiki gets about 95% meat in her meals. That's not an exact percentage, but her meal is based on meat, with a couple other things thrown in, but only in small amounts. A spoonful or so. So yes :smile:




> although it *does* make ME feel incredibly judged to be lumped into a mass group of PMR people that go around insulting people for their choices.


I'm sorry you're right. I should not have lumped you into that group because you have been incredibly respectful of my choice and very helpful with the information and answers you have given me. I do appreciate the help you've offered since I've found this site!


----------



## ubershann

danemama08 said:


> I still recommend people feed kibble if they don't want to do raw or can't. But that isn't to say that you believe the way that you feed is best, right? So you will try and get people to feed raw your way first, right?


Actually when I talk to someone about raw I tell them there are several ways of doing it. I tell them about PMR, pre-made, and how I do it (plus I mention that there are even more styles of raw feeding out there). Whatever they choose I'm sure they'll do it because it's what they feel is best. I don't tell them one style is better than the other because, honestly, I don't truly believe that PMR is so much better than other styles of raw feeding. I certainly don't feel it's worse either. I guess I'm an equal opportunity feeder :wink: I've never tried to sway anyone to my style of feeding over PMR, and have never put down pre-made raw foods either. I think there are positive points to each of them, and in the end it comes down to what works for the owner, what they can afford, and what their dog does best on. 



> With all this being said, I'm still disappointed that you won't say what exactly it is that you feed your dog. I really hope that you will change your mind about it....because to me (and I don't want this to sound/read wrong at all...) that you're not 100% confident in what you feed if you can't stand up for it and explain why you feed what you do.


I have no problem telling you what I feed her. In the previous post you asked me why, which is what I didn't really want to get into because it's nothing different than why any of you chose PMR. You did your research, you put together information, you felt it was the best choice. That's it. 

I am 100% confident with my choice, I'm sorry if it came off that I wasn't. I guess the reason I didn't want to get into why is that I didn't feel like getting in a long debate about my information vs. other's information. Plus that's a LOT of time, if I need to pull up every source I've ever gotten nutritional and physiological information from :wink: 

What I feed her is mostly meat, with a small amount of veggies that have been cut very small and just barely cooked (to start the cellulose degradation). I don't make them myself, I buy them through a company that makes pre-made raw dog food. I add in cottage cheese, not a lot, and sometimes I put a little banana in there because she loves it so much. The meat I feed ranges, but as I'm sure you know I don't feed chicken. Usually she gets beef or pork but sometimes I'll get some pre-made from work and she'll get bison, lamb, rabbit, and other types. She's had salmon but will probably have to wait until her birthday to get more, since I'm very picky about salmon and the kind I'd feed her is very expensive. lol! 

Some meals she gets a couple beef ribs and nothing else. Today she's eating beef patties from Primal that have organ meat and bone ground into them. So it varies a little, but in general she's eating mostly meat, with a couple other things mixed in but only in small amounts. 

Hope that helps you understand both what and why I feed :smile:


----------



## luvMyBRT

BrownieM said:


> I have to admit that I mostly lurk and only occasionally post on this forum because I also feel intimidated and threatened by the very clear "popular" opinion that PMR is the only acceptable way to feed.


I don't know, maybe it's just me, but I never have felt this way! I came here a newbie and feeding kibble. Like I've posted before, I never felt intimidated or threated by anyone! I always felt like I was respected and given helpful advice FROM raw feeders. I switched to PMR (becauese like Shannon :smile, I did my own research and felt it was the best for my dogs.




> Heck, how many breeders and pet owners and probably veterinarians feed their dogs low quality foods like iams, pedigree, etc?


Not sure what you mean here?? Does this make it okay to feed a low quality kibble and since a vet does it so should we?



> It is disheartening to come onto a forum where there is clearly no point in discussing food unless I agree to change my dogs to PMR.


Really? Have you seen the posts in the other sections that aren't in the raw section? How many helpful posts do you see in the dry and canned food section that are helpful? Let me take a look....I see tons! And even some of the posts are made by raw feeders....

I am sure I will be lumped into the group of pushy raw feeders, now that I feed raw. That's okay. I don't mind. :wink::smile:


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## DaneMama

Thanks for your reply. But it's still a total mystery to all of us as to WHAT you fees Tiki....you say that she gets 95% meat...but what else?


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## ubershann

danemama08 said:


> First off, no one would ever fund a study done on raw. WHY? Because there is NO money in it.


How do you know this is why? And if raw feeders are buying meat from the grocery store there is money to be made in it, just not by dog food companies. Ranchers and farmers would be raking it in if everyone were convinced to feed meat to their dogs. Dogs eat more meat on a daily bases than humans do, so it could more than double their sales, easily.

Plus, there are medical studies done all the time when no money is going to be made. Science is not always about money, though I do agree that none of the big dog food companies are going to fork out the cash for a study. It certainly wouldn't turn out well for them in the end



> Second, IF a study was done on raw vs kibble it would have to be a HUGE study. It would have to incorporate thousands of dogs of all different breeds, weaned as puppies onto all the different styles of raw feeding (PMR, BARF, etc.) and a spectrum of "qualities" of kibble (grain free, grain inclusive, crap, etc). Because a study done on ONE style of raw feeding vs ONE type of kibble wouldn't be conclusive in any way, shape or form. Not to mention this study would take upwards of 20+ years since some dogs will naturally live longer than others.


But that's the thing, it can be done. We may not have the results in the timeframe that we personally want them, but it's not unheard of for large scale, long studies to be done so in the future we will have the data. That's how discoveries are made, over time. Sometimes the study has to be started even though it may not benefit our dogs in time. It could benefit our next dogs, or our kid's dogs, but it can be done.


----------



## ubershann

BrownieM said:


> I have to admit that I mostly lurk and only occasionally post on this forum because I also feel intimidated and threatened by the very clear "popular" opinion that PMR is the only acceptable way to feed. I also sense a very passive aggressive tone by many people on this thread and honestly, it is not a comfortable place for me to be.


I guess that's why I ended up ranting in my original post. I've felt the same way and I'm sure I'm not the only one. Who knows how many people have checked out the site, looking for a way to feed raw but only seeing the PMR opinion, then decided to go elsewhere or just stick to kibble. No one wants to be made to feel bad for their decision, and I'm sure no one here is outwardly trying to insult others, but it still comes across that way. 

While I think PMR is an excellent choice, it shouldn't come across as the _only_ choice if you want to do what's best for your dog.


----------



## ubershann

danemama08 said:


> Thanks for your reply. But it's still a total mystery to all of us as to WHAT you fees Tiki....you say that she gets 95% meat...but what else?


Wait now I'm confused. I just listed what else I feed her :smile:


----------



## BrownieM

saraj2878 said:


> I don't know, maybe it's just me, but I never have felt this way! I came here a newbie and feeding kibble. Like I've posted before, I never felt intimidated or threated by anyone! I always felt like I was respected and given helpful advice FROM raw feeders. I switched to PMR (becauese like Shannon :smile, I did my own research and felt it was the best for my dogs.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Not sure what you mean here?? Does this make it okay to feed a low quality kibble and since a vet does it so should we?
> 
> 
> 
> Really? Have you seen the posts in the other sections that aren't in the raw section? How many helpful posts do you see in the dry and canned food section that are helpful? Let me take a look....I see tons! And even some of the posts are made by raw feeders....
> 
> I am sure I will be lumped into the group of pushy raw feeders, now that I feed raw. That's okay. I don't mind. :wink::smile:


I am not lumping you into any category. I am simply saying that I do not particularly feel welcome here. This is unfortunately because when I first found this forum I was quite excited. Even when I post in the dry/kibble section, it is clear to me that everyone on this forum believes PMR is superior to anything else. period.

I am just pointing this out because I am certain that I am not the only newbie here who feels this way.

I am not saying that it is okay to feed crappy food at all. I mentioned the breeders/pet owners/vets who probably feed low quality kibble because I was trying to prove the point that although I don't feed PMR, I still think I feed a superior diet to my dog than many, many people in the dog world.


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## ubershann

BrownieM said:


> I was trying to prove the point that although I don't feed PMR, I still think I feed a superior diet to my dog than many, many people in the dog world.


I agree! :biggrin:


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## DaneMama

If you guys feel intimidated that is all the more reason to speak up and keep things in check. I have no issue with that!!! If anything I want you to speak up and be forward with what you feed!!! You are absolutely right that PMR isn't the only option out there...it's just what people think is best.


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## ubershann

danemama08 said:


> If you guys feel intimidated that is all the more reason to speak up and keep things in check.


I have actually mentioned it a couple times before, but the response I get is "I don't see anyone being insulting" or "We're just sharing our opinions" or something along those lines. And I do realize no one is trying to be insulting, perhaps it's in the way it comes across. 

It hasn't made me leave, obviously, but I also don't often recommend the site to my customers because I don't think a lot of them could take it. Some of them are much more timid than I am and just starting to think about raw, even premade is a lot for them to consider. If they were bombarded with comments that felt belittling or insulting (even if they were not meant that way) they would most likely say forget it and stick to what they know


----------



## DaneMama

ubershann said:


> I have actually mentioned it a couple times before, but the response I get is "I don't see anyone being insulting" or "We're just sharing our opinions" or something along those lines. And I do realize no one is trying to be insulting, perhaps it's in the way it comes across.
> 
> It hasn't made me leave, obviously, but I also don't often recommend the site to my customers because I don't think a lot of them could take it. Some of them are much more timid than I am and just starting to think about raw, even premade is a lot for them to consider. If they were bombarded with comments that felt belittling or insulting (even if they were not meant that way) they would most likely say forget it and stick to what they know


I think you are way too quick to judge. Most people who come here interested in raw are welcomed with open arms. Of course we are going to teach them about what we know and are experienced with. It just so happens that most of the raw feeders here do prey model. Why? Because it makes logical sense to mimic what they would eat in the wild. Which is mostly meat, some bone, and some organ.


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## RCTRIPLEFRESH5

CorgiPaws said:


> Raw in my apartment proved to be far too difficult. No space to store. No space to prepare. No space to feed. And if I'm being totally honest, keeping the freezers in my living room to make it work, was a disaster from the start, and left me with absolutely no floor space and made the room unusable.
> 
> But in order to save up and get into a house with a yard next year, this is what we had to do.
> 
> So, my girls are on kibble. I guess that's why I haven't been posting as much, I didn't want to admit it. I'm jipping them in a lot of ways, and maybe I should have rented a larger space, or kept the freezers in my living room, but the price on this place is right, and I had very little time to find a place to live.
> 
> I tried Annie on EVO, and gave it a month, but it was the worst train wreck ever, and I couldn't do the 5 potty breaks in the middle of the night anymore. She's since been on Canidae Grain Free Salmon Meal, but I'm not really happy with it.. so putting her on TOTW Wetlands when my order comes in Wednesday.
> 
> Zailey is on Chicken Soup Adult.
> 
> Both get canned food every night, and i rotate just about everything good. Merrick, Addiction, Wellness Core, Evo, Tiki Dog, Ziwi Peak, Tripett, Merrick BG...
> 
> 
> 
> Neither dog is doing terrible, by any means. I sure do miss raw poop, though.. and Annie does in fact smell like a dog again, which is super annoying. Their teeth look fine, but they're still getting beef ribs to nom on.
> 
> I'm not "ashamed" by feeding them kibble... but I'm certainly not proud of it. But I felt the need to disclose it, so any further posts make sense.
> 
> 
> So there you have it, a kibble-feeding Mod!!:tongue:


well i msorry to hear ur dogs have ''downgraded '' to kibble, and ihope it works out for you..
with that being said, dont you think posting this in the kibble section with a thiumbs down..like kibble is inferior to raw is insulting to kibble feeders who feel it is the ebst option for their dogs?

either way hope it works out for you,imsure your dogs will be ok.


----------



## ubershann

danemama08 said:


> I think you are way too quick to judge. Most people who come here interested in raw are welcomed with open arms. Of course we are going to teach them about what we know and are experienced with. It just so happens that most of the raw feeders here do prey model. Why? Because it makes logical sense to mimic what they would eat in the wild. Which is mostly meat, some bone, and some organ.


I think PMR is a great choice. I would never try to sway someone away from it. I don't know why you feel I'm judging anyone. As I've said, I think the people here seem to be good people and are not intentionally trying to be mean. But that doesn't mean the things that have been said come across as lightly as they may have been intended. There have been many comments that have felt insulting, belittling, and a bit snarky. I've felt like if I don't feed PMR then the raw feeders here feel I'm doing a great injustice to my dog. I'm not saying that's exactly the intent of the posters, I'm saying that's how it's made me feel. And I'm not the only one who'd been made to feel that way, so I don't think it's just me being "quick to judge."

I think because there are pretty much all PMR feeders here there is no one to take a step back and point out that maybe there's another side to things. Perhaps that's why the comments have gone unchecked. I mean, if you ask me, not all dogs were designed to hunt and kill animals. While dogs may have descended from wolves, it does not mean they are exactly the same as wolves. They have also been domesticated for so long that it would be logical to think their systems have evolved to adapt to their surroundings. 

So to say it makes logical sense to mimic what they do in the wild, well we don't really know what these dogs would do in the wild. We know what wolves would do, we know what coyotes would do, but we do not know what domesticated dogs who have been bred as pets for hundreds (thousands?) of years would do. Up until now I've kept my mouth shut about that. I see no harm in PMR but when those who are just starting to show interest in raw are made to feel like that is the only choice, then I feel like the logic needs more proof than "that's what wolves do" to back it up. Humans descended from apes, but that does not mean that we should model our diets on how apes eat. 

My logic dictates that I find out the nutritional needs of this particular animal and fill those needs. And the part of me that wants to help others doesn't care which form of raw they choose. I present the options equally when I talk to someone showing interest. I have not felt that here, I have felt that anything other than PMR is looked down on. I'm sorry if that's not the intent, but it sometimes comes across that way. 

I do appreciate the nutritional information I get from reading posts here, and I think it is a great group of people who really care about their animals. I just wish there could be a little more acceptance when it comes to other feeding styles. It's great to share information and experience, but there's a fine line between sharing that information and pushing it until someone feels there is no other option. (that's not a comment aimed at you, it's just a general comment)


----------



## luvMyBRT

ubershann said:


> I have actually mentioned it a couple times before, but the response I get is "I don't see anyone being insulting" or "We're just sharing our opinions" or something along those lines.


I think this is correct. I haven't seen any belittling, insulting, degrading going on. And when I have seen this, it is taken care of right away. I have gotten a hand slap for posting something I shouldn't...and I feed raw! :wink:



> but I also don't often recommend the site to my customers because I don't think a lot of them could take it.


I think this is pretty sad. Can they not decide for themselves if "they can take it"?? Why keep them from a forum that is full of great information? Just because you don't agree with some of our opinions doesn't mean you shouldn't let someone know of a great on-line source of info. If they can't take it, they can at least read through some posts to learn...

JMHO....:smile:


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## luvMyBRT

danemama08 said:


> It just so happens that most of the raw feeders here do prey model. Why? Because it makes logical sense to mimic what they would eat in the wild. Which is mostly meat, some bone, and some organ.


BINGO. :biggrin:


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## jdatwood

Here's some quick food for thought....

The primary posters on this forum have been interacting daily for well over a year now, some for much longer. Friendships have been built because of this continued contact. Many posts are made with implied emotion that we know these people will pick up on....

I have a feeling that many of the "snarky" comments are misunderstood simply because you (and others) don't know our personalities.... you don't know our true intentions.

This is one of the BIGGEST problems with internet forums... lack of visible emotion in posts. You have to try and make some kind of judgement based on nothing but words. I think we are all guilty of misreading posts and intent MANY times. I know I am


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## ubershann

saraj2878 said:


> I think this is pretty sad. Can they not decide for themselves if "they can take it"?? Why keep them from a forum that is full of great information? Just because you don't agree with some of our opinions doesn't mean you shouldn't let someone know of a great on-line source of info. If they can't take it, they can at least read through some posts to learn...
> 
> JMHO....:smile:


It's not because they can't decide for themselves, it's because of the overwhelming slant to PMR here. I have no problem with those who feed PMR but I have encountered the feeling of having it pounded into me here, and not only is not everyone into the idea of feeding PMR, but not everyone can or will stand up for their opinions like I will. It's hard to see that since most of those people probably either left the site or never posted at all. 

When I present raw feeding choices I cover several, and really don't care which style they choose. I'm sure if they're serious about wanting to learn for themselves they will find this site on their own. It comes up easily in a Google search :smile:

Just to clarify, it's not because I don't agree with your opinions. I don't mind differing opinions at all. It's the way the opinions are presented. The attitude about any raw besides PMR seems to be "sure I suppose you could do that but why would you do anything but PMR?" There is an overwhelming push toward PMR here, and it's nice to see that those of you who feed it stand so firmly behind it, but there needs to be room for other ways too. And the attitude about kibble, well that's a whole different story.


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## RCTRIPLEFRESH5

if premade raw was the same price as orijen or something id feed that to my dog, but im not competent enough to not screw up a pmr diet lol!. besides im not even sure its really that much better than kibble. Rachael said her dog had cannon butt on it, which improved when she transitioned to half kibble. also we all say that dogs are naturally drawn to meat...but lets face it, some dogs dont even like the taste of meats and prefer pedigree.

id much rather have a poach who survives 15 years n a veggie diet then a pooch who i invest my time in raw that doesnt make it and gets a disease or something.
i think grain free kibbles are good for those of us who are incompetent as to prepare a balanced diet for our pups =p


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## DaneMama

ubershann said:


> I think PMR is a great choice. I would never try to sway someone away from it. I don't know why you feel I'm judging anyone. As I've said, I think the people here seem to be good people and are not intentionally trying to be mean. But that doesn't mean the things that have been said come across as lightly as they may have been intended. There have been many comments that have felt insulting, belittling, and a bit snarky. I've felt like if I don't feed PMR then the raw feeders here feel I'm doing a great injustice to my dog. I'm not saying that's exactly the intent of the posters, I'm saying that's how it's made me feel. And I'm not the only one who'd been made to feel that way, so I don't think it's just me being "quick to judge."


I think the raw feeders that think you are doing a great injustice to your dog are the ones that don't feel that your diet in particular is complete and balanced. Going off of what you have stated you feed:

*95% muscle meats
*very little pre-made veggies (finely chopped and slightly cooked)
*tiny bit of cottage cheese
*bananas
*occasional pre made raw (may have organ meat included or not)
*beef ribs from time to time (not a source of edible bone or marrow)
*multi vitamin

I don't see this as a balanced and complete diet. Mainly because of the bone issue. While bone is a relatively small portion of the diet, its an essential part of the diet. If you were to add an edible type of bone that provides marrow it would be a complete and balanced diet. And I would have NO issue whatsoever with you advising people to feed it, but the way it stands I don't see it as ideal at all.

I personally don't have issue with other means of a raw diet, I really don't. People are going to do what they think is best and that is perfectly ok with me. Unless I don't think that their diet is complete and balanced. My issue is that I don't see how the above list of items in a diet as any where close to a complete and balanced raw diet. I would really love to hear why you think it is. I'm not trying to attack you, I just merely would like for you to break it down for me. 

I feel this way because I feel that we all have a responsibility and ethical requirement to be as accurate as possible when helping new people who join. This is because the health and well being of those dogs depend on our knowledge and experience. I really want the best for my dog as well as others. I have 100% confidence in PMR and even close to 100% confidence in BARF because these ways of feeding have been around a very long time with wonderful results. 

My mentors when switching to raw have been doing this type of feeding for 30+ years, using it in their breeding programs. While it may not be traditional scientific study, it is a good indication that it works. I was skeptical at first, but when I knew that people had been doing it for generations of dogs, it gave me the confidence to do raw feeding. 

What I see you doing is close to BARF but just a random mess of stuff put together. I may be wrong, but you should tell me why I may be wrong because I didn't do the research behind your choices. 

I'm certainly not trying to pick a fight, but rather clear the waters and make sure what you are feeding your dog and possibly recommending to others is really ok to feed. It may be that what you feed is really another acceptable form of raw feeding but I do need to see the light!




> I think because there are pretty much all PMR feeders here there is no one to take a step back and point out that maybe there's another side to things. Perhaps that's why the comments have gone unchecked. I mean, if you ask me, not all dogs were designed to hunt and kill animals. While dogs may have descended from wolves, it does not mean they are exactly the same as wolves. They have also been domesticated for so long that it would be logical to think their systems have evolved to adapt to their surroundings.


I think that there are so many PMR feeders here because the ways of BARF are sorta becoming out of date. I think that many people are coming to realize that some of the additions of BARF are just not necessary. While BARF is a perfectly healthy diet and I have no problems with others choosing this...I think its just that its going out of "style" and PMR really is taking its place as the next and best in raw feeding. For example, I'm on a relatively active yahoo raw feeding group. It used to be a BARF group and they didn't like the PMR terminology. But within the last couple of months, it has become not only acceptable, but widely used.

Domesticated dogs are certainly not the same as wolves, not even close. Their behavior and morphology are quite different because of selective breeding. Wolves were first domesticated about 10,000 years ago. While that is quite a long time, its not nearly enough time for huge changes to occur physiologically.



> So to say it makes logical sense to mimic what they do in the wild, well we don't really know what these dogs would do in the wild. We know what wolves would do, we know what coyotes would do, but we do not know what domesticated dogs who have been bred as pets for hundreds (thousands?) of years would do. Up until now I've kept my mouth shut about that. I see no harm in PMR but when those who are just starting to show interest in raw are made to feel like that is the only choice, then I feel like the logic needs more proof than "that's what wolves do" to back it up. Humans descended from apes, but that does not mean that we should model our diets on how apes eat.


You are absolutely correct in your idea that we have NO idea what dogs would do in the wild if they were raised there. 



> My logic dictates that I find out the nutritional needs of this particular animal and fill those needs. And the part of me that wants to help others doesn't care which form of raw they choose. I present the options equally when I talk to someone showing interest. I have not felt that here, I have felt that anything other than PMR is looked down on. I'm sorry if that's not the intent, but it sometimes comes across that way.


I have no issue with people suggesting other modes of raw feeding AS long as they are complete and balanced.



> I do appreciate the nutritional information I get from reading posts here, and I think it is a great group of people who really care about their animals. I just wish there could be a little more acceptance when it comes to other feeding styles. It's great to share information and experience, but there's a fine line between sharing that information and pushing it until someone feels there is no other option. (that's not a comment aimed at you, it's just a general comment)


The only reason why I don't accept your way of feeding is stated above. I don't care about all the extras you add in because I know it doesn't do any harm, they are neutral ingredients. What does bother me is the lack of bone nutrition....unless your dog ingests the entire beef rib, but dogs who do this are few and far between. I would only want to see more edible bone added to your diet and I will be a happy camper :wink:


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## jdatwood

RCTRIPLEFRESH5 said:


> im not competent enough to not screw up a pmr diet lol!.


You don't give yourself enough credit dude. You're a smart kid and you have a WEALTH of knowledge here for you 24/7

IF you ever make the leap we'll help you all the way :wink:


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## whiteleo

Ubershann, I personally don't have an an opinion one way or the other of how you feed your dog, what does bug me is when someone who does feed the PMR diet and is in the transition period and is having issues with diarrea and we are all trying to help them work through their issues, you always come in and post that my dog is fed raw and she never had issues with diarrea. You can't possibly compare apples to oranges in the way you feed your dog and the PMR, its fine how you feed, but it doesn't do any good to give advise about diarrea issues if your dog and the OP dog is not fed the same way! IMOP!


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## DaneMama

^^^ Totally agreed. Whiteleo brings up a very, very good point. But this can also be taken vice versa, we as PMR feeders shouldn't necessarily respond to newbies switching to BARF since we don't have the experience.


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## RCTRIPLEFRESH5

jdatwood said:


> You don't give yourself enough credit dude. You're a smart kid and you have a WEALTH of knowledge here for you 24/7
> 
> IF you ever make the leap we'll help you all the way :wink:


its a scary leap to make. but who knows what the future holds


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## jdatwood

RCTRIPLEFRESH5 said:


> its a scary leap to make. but who knows what the future holds


It sure is! We've all been there bro. When you're ready give us a shout


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## RCTRIPLEFRESH5

i always thought you thought iwasnt to knowledgeable by some of your posts, but i guess iwas wrong =p.


but yeah when it comes to raw, i need to step up the research if i want to think about it. but for now,kibbles doing fine. just nice to know raw is out there if its needed. it might be needed soon with the kibble industry as it is.

not to mention it seems like kibble prices are rising. WITH A 2 DOLLAR COUPON, canidae grain free is 51.50 with tax. not terrible,but not super cheap compared to raw..when u find deals.


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## ubershann

RCTRIPLEFRESH5 said:


> id much rather have a poach who survives 15 years n a veggie diet then a pooch who i invest my time in raw that doesnt make it and gets a disease or something.
> i think grain free kibbles are good for those of us who are incompetent as to prepare a balanced diet for our pups =p


I agree. Every dog is an individual just like every person is an individual. Bodies are not machines made in a factory and they can run differently. Sure we all have pretty much the same blueprint, but if all dogs systems worked the same then all dogs would have the exact same reaction when they are fed the same things. Why do I hear so much about "cannon butt" and the required _very_ slow transition to raw, when my dog made the transition pretty much overnight and hasn't has a day of diarrhea in all her time on raw...including the initial transition period. Obviously all dogs do not work the same. 

Wait, I take that back. She did have some nasty poop when I tried one more time with chicken. But then I was still told to feed her chicken backs. Oy vey


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## jdatwood

ubershann said:


> my dog made the transition pretty much overnight and hasn't has a day of diarrhea in all her time on raw...including the initial transition period. Obviously all dogs do not work the same.
> 
> Wait, I take that back. She did have some nasty poop when I tried one more time with chicken. But then I was still told to feed her chicken backs. Oy vey


You admitted earlier that you were feeding "premade" raw to your dog for a long time leading up to your "overnight" switch to raw.

Your comments are misleading if not outright deceptive. If your dog had been eating NOTHING but kibble prior to your switch it might have a little more meaning...

I won't even touch the chicken comment. You're just trying to pick a fight now.

NOBODY has said that dogs are all the same. What has been said is that they have the same basic nutritional requirements.


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## CorgiPaws

*ahem*
I feel the need to address the direction this thread has gone.

Ubershann- I think it's fantastic that you feed what you feel is best. I am glad it's working for your dogs. If that's where your comfort level and your dogs are thriving, absolutely wonderful! 

RC- Sorry if my choice in thread icon offended you... I guess. To ME, yes, it is a disappointment, BUT that's only because of MY views on what I think is BEST. So, in MY eyes, yeah. disappointing. But, I felt the need to disclose that fact so that any posts I make in the future make sense, and every post isn't distracted with "wait, don't you feed raw?" because that would get old fast. 

With that being said, I'll leave a friendly reminder to keep it friendly. Let's not gang up on any members because of what they have decided to feed, and keep in mind we are ALL here because we love our pets. There is "evidence" and "studies" working in favor and against ALL forms of feeding. It's really a matter of which ones you buy into based on simply what makes more sense to you. Different minds think differently. Heck, I could find article after article that spout the "benefits" of corn in a dog's diet... but you and I would know that they are bogus. BUT... they are "studies" and someone out there has bought into them, no?

As for the intimidation caused by the PMR crowd on this forum- it's something I've pondered time and time again. Why is it so? Why is it intimidating? Then i stopped and thought...
I've been on this forum for a couple of years. Not that many people stick around for more than a couple months. The raw group here now, is the same for the most part as the raw group then. 
Look at the "top posters" and "top thread starters" member list. You'll find it full of raw feeders. Then look at the "top thanked." Clearly it's being appreciated by someone! Look at who is around the most... who gives the most advice. Now I'm not talking down to kibble feeders in the SLIGHTEST but when raw feeders are the most active, that's the result. I've seen EVERY SINGLE raw feeder on this forum give sound advice in the kibble section WITHOUT injecting raw whatsoever. I apologize that it is "offensive" when raw really IS the only answer to some questions... would you rather get no answer at all or one you didn't want to hear? In all reality, raw is not in the kibble section that often, and when it is, it gets moved. 
I would love to see the kibble, BARF, homecooking, and non-PMR raw feeding community here take off and flourish, but as long as people take offense to things so easily, it simply won't happen. As a mod, all we can do is attempt to keep raw in the raw section, and kibble in the kibble section. We can not control how many posts people make, or how many threads are started in the raw section vs. the kibble section. I think it's rather rash to lurk here, and automatically decide that you're unwelcome because of what you've fed. I think it is equally saddening to assume that someone can't "handle" this forum because of the raw community. Quite frankly, that offends ME because the knowledge on this forum is amazing... and just about everyone is eager to help. That mentality will only shortchange the people whose pets stand to benefit from a community like this. 

I hope that there will come a day that people aren't so offended by the passion of raw feeders. That passion is the result of not only endless research, but amazing results seen in our own pets. Seeing my Corgi inch his way closer to death on quality kibble, only to have a complete turnaround in mere days on PMR is enough to instill a passion for educating in me. That's something hard to leave behind when there are posts pretty much stating they are going through the exact same thing. Should I not share what I know because oops, it's in the wrong section? Sorry. It's more important than that. 

On the flip side, should ANYONE be made to feel like they are not welcome here because they don't feed PMR? Absolutely not. Bullying and degrading will not be tolerated. Period. No matter where it is coming from. 


I'd really like to see this line dividing the kibble feeders and raw feeders be dissolved. I've met some pretty amazing friends on this forum (dare I say some of my best?) and it's a shame to think people are missing out on similar experiences...


there, how's THAT for a ranting response?


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## jdatwood

RCTRIPLEFRESH5 said:


> i always thought you thought iwasnt to knowledgeable by some of your posts, but i guess iwas wrong =p.
> 
> but yeah when it comes to raw, i need to step up the research if i want to think about it. but for now,kibbles doing fine. just nice to know raw is out there if its needed. it might be needed soon with the kibble industry as it is.


Sorry you feel that way man. Never was my intent. Do I feel you're misled sometimes? Absolutely! You definitely do your research though and have valid opinions quite often :biggrin: (not saying I'm right every time either...)

Seems like you owe it to Shane to at least research it some more :wink: He'd LOVE you for it


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## ubershann

Wow. Where to begin...



danemama08 said:


> I think the raw feeders that think you are doing a great injustice to your dog are the ones that don't feel that your diet in particular is complete and balanced.


I don't know how anyone would feel that what I feed is either complete or incomplete since none of them have ever asked me exactly what I feed and how much, until you did in the private message. And in my reply I did state that she got bone in her diet, it's ground into several of the meats she eats. I also remember asking quite a while ago for more information about the importance of bone, and was basically told that most of the importance is the calcium and to bind stools together. She gets calcium (btw, I did not say in my message a "tiny" amount of cottage cheese), and her stools seem to be binding a lot better than several I've heard about on PMR. 



> I don't see this as a balanced and complete diet. Mainly because of the bone issue. While bone is a relatively small portion of the diet, its an essential part of the diet. If you were to add an edible type of bone that provides marrow it would be a complete and balanced diet. And I would have NO issue whatsoever with you advising people to feed it, but the way it stands I don't see it as ideal at all.


As I said in my private message response, she does get bone. I also did not list marrow in with her meals because she doesn't get it with the meals, but she does get it. Marrow is a part of her diet. You went ahead and assumed it wasn't. In fact I've mentioned it many times while I'm being chastised for giving her marrow bones. As I've stated in those posts, she picks the meat off the outside, then licks the marrow out from inside. These are raw bones and raw marrow, about 3" long. I don't know the exact amount of marrow in each one but next time I give her one I can pull it out and measure it if necessary. 

I didn't realize when you asked what I fed you were getting ready to break it down and analyze what you feel is missing from it. You claimed that I tried to hide what I was feeding and wouldn't tell anyone. That's simply not true. I've never had any problems sharing what I feed and if anyone had asked me the amounts I would tell them, as I told you when you asked. I guess I don't feel the need to shove my way of feeding down anyone's throat, so if they want to know exactly what I feed (in more detail than I give in the post) then I figure they can ask me. I'm also trying to be respectful of the PMR slant here and not try to pull people to my way of feeding when PMR is obviously the style of choice here.

I listed the main parts of her meal, not every single thing she consumes inside and outside of mealtime. Taking the summary list i gave you off the top of my head in a private message, and breaking it down so you can claim it's not a complete diet, well to be honest I think that's a bit sneaky. Had I known it was going to be tossed out here and ripped apart I could have given you a more thorough list of everything that enters her stomach at any given time. 

So rest assured, my dog gets bones and marrow. I may not feed PMR but I can still cover my bases nutritionally. 



> My issue is that I don't see how the above list of items in a diet as any where close to a complete and balanced raw diet.


I'm confused. A few lines above you said your only problem is the bone and marrow, which you also said only makes up a very small percentage of PMR anyway, and now you're saying it isn't anywhere close to a complete and balanced diet? My head is spinning.



> I really want the best for my dog as well as others. I have 100% confidence in PMR


I feel the same. And I have 100% confidence in what I am feeding. I also would like people to know there are several options for raw feeding style, and there's a style to fit everyone's needs. Not everyone is willing to toss a carcass on the ground and let their dogs go at it. If they aren't told there are other styles of raw feeding they may just stick with what they've got and forget about raw altogether.



> What I see you doing is close to BARF but just a random mess of stuff put together.


Ouch. 

No, it's not a "random mess of stuff." I did my research, I measured, I did the math, I figured out what needed to be in there to fit what I feel is needed in my dog's diet. I also got advice from people around me who have been feeding the same way I do for many, many moons.



> While BARF is a perfectly healthy diet and I have no problems with others choosing this...I think its just that its going out of "style" and PMR really is taking its place as the next and best in raw feeding.


Ok, so what do you think the next trend is going to be? Or do you honestly believe that all progress on the dog food front has reached its peak and no new styles of feeding will ever come out. 

If BARF was the best, and now PMR is the best, wouldn't it stand to reason that there will be another "best" in the future? How do you know that a study isn't being conducted right now, and in a few years we'll find out that veggies are actually needed for dogs? Like I said in a post much earlier, science is always making new discoveries. Things are always changing. The world was once flat. 

Just because PMR is the flavor of the day does not mean no other styles of raw feeding are valid, or that other styles are not as good. Who knows, in a few years you may be finding out that the way I feed is the new trend in dog feeding :wink: 



> Wolves were first domesticated about 10,000 years ago. While that is quite a long time, its not nearly enough time for huge changes to occur physiologically.


I'm not saying they've grown thumbs or anything, but yes, it is enough time to make some changes, especially in areas like dietary needs. Bodies adapt to that sort of stuff rather quickly in fact. Not just dogs, most species.


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## ubershann

whiteleo said:


> what does bug me is when someone who does feed the PMR diet and is in the transition period and is having issues with diarrea and we are all trying to help them work through their issues, you always come in and post that my dog is fed raw and she never had issues with diarrea.


I'm sorry, I didn't realize it was taken that way. I will definitely stay out of those posts. I guess I don't remember the ones where someone is already experiencing diarrhea, though I do remember ones who were worried about diarrhea or the subject was being discussed in general. 

But I will definitely keep clear of those conversations! I can see your point :smile:


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## ubershann

jdatwood said:


> You admitted earlier that you were feeding "premade" raw to your dog for a long time leading up to your "overnight" switch to raw.


I didn't "admit" that earlier. I've stated that many, many times in several of my posts over on the raw feeding board. I've mentioned it to people looking for information about switching to raw. In fact, I've even stated many times that it might have helped with her transition. But the fact that she was getting a few spoonfuls of premade raw with her predominately kibble meal does not change the fact that she went from 99% kibble to 100% raw overnight. 



> Your comments are misleading if not outright deceptive. If your dog had been eating NOTHING but kibble prior to your switch it might have a little more meaning...


How have I been deceptive about anything? I've NEVER claimed to anyone that my dog got only kibble. If anything, I've encouraged those who are thinking about raw but can't afford it to at least add a little on top of the kibble *LIKE I DID*. I've even stated flat out that I have no proof, but I feel it might have made the transition easier. 

And no, I am not trying to pick a fight. I am defending my choice of feeding style against several people who seem to feel that theirs is the only true way to feed, and who have made assumptions about what I feed and how I feed without ever actually asking me about it.


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## ubershann

What you have said is full of wisdom :smile: You have brought up very good points on all sides of the discussion. I just wanted to add a possibility to something you mentioned.



CorgiPaws said:


> As for the intimidation caused by the PMR crowd on this forum- it's something I've pondered time and time again. Why is it so? Why is it intimidating? Then i stopped and thought...
> I've been on this forum for a couple of years. Not that many people stick around for more than a couple months. The raw group here now, is the same for the most part as the raw group then.


Perhaps the reason that the raw feeders that are here now are the same as before, while others tend to not stick around, is because they are all like minded. I'm not sure if that makes sense, so I'll reword it just in case. 

Basically, it feels like there is no room for any other feeding style in there. I don't think it's a forum filled with meanies who chase everyone out of their secret clubhouse, just that they are so passionate about their choice that it leave little or no room for other feeding choices, and those who have chosen differently. 

I know everyone keeps saying "All feeding styles are welcome!" But there's a difference between saying that, and making it a welcome environment to all feeding styles. For me, I've felt that I am welcome in the raw forum, and welcome to ask questions, but that my feeding style is not accepted, respected, or acknowledged as a nutritional diet. 

Just thought I'd throw that out there to add to your pondering :wink:


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## CorgiPaws

Silly me, I thought I started this thread to disclose what I feed. Seems that it was apparently a this raw vs. That raw debate. So, kindly agree to disagree (there is NO sense in going back and forth when clearly both parties are firmly routed) and let's not continue to intimidate the lurkers.


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## PUNKem733




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## DaneMama

Shannon,

Thank you for your reply. 

I just want to say what you listed you feed your dog I got from a post in this thread. Which is the exact same thing you sent to me in PM. Of course I'm going to dissect it and analyze it to make sure I think that it's an ok diet to recommend. I gave you my opinions on it, and then you come back with more information about her diet that fills in the gaps that I saw. I didn't realize that the ground pre made stuff you feed has bone (which is important not only for binding stools and providing calcium, there is a plethora of nutrition there that is nearly impossible to mimic). Now that you've given me the whole picture of what she eats, I feel comfortable with you suggesting it to others.

ETA: I still think that the diet you choose to feed is too much muscle meats and not enough bone or organ, since what you feed is 95% fresh muscle meat. But that is just my opinion. 

Just as people who bring kibbles here to be analyzed to make sure they are good to feed, we must do the same for raw diets. I don't care what "style" of raw feeding anyone chooses for their dogs because the ones that have been around with good results for a long time are safe to recommend. It's pointless to debate which is better, that's not my point at all. My point all along was that I was confused about what exactly you feed your dog (and I read almost every post on this forum and every post in the raw section) but finally I know. And like I said I'm fine with it and you recommending it to others. 

That's all folks!


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## DaneMama

Linsey, totally sorry this thread has gotten as intense as it has!!!! I didn't think it would get to this point, figured it would be question and then answer!!! If you want me to move it to a new thread some where else I really will....Although I think some great discussion and debate has gone back and forth and knowing this history of this forum I'm proud that it has stayed as civil as it has.

Just want to let all of who read this thread that sometimes passion can be construed as aggression on our part and that I hope people don't get discouraged to join in on this forum!!! We are here to help and have fun AND respect all members and their decisions. 

Happy posting :wink: :biggrin:


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## kevin bradley

wow, you guys really got rolling last night :wink: sorry I missed it. 

Yeah, I think Linsey's post COULD have been construed as a hit on kibble feeders. But I KNOW that wasn't her intention and THAT is what matters. Like Jon said, things get lost in translation on these forums. 

I think sometimes we get so bent on defending our positions, we don't pause to think..."What if what we're doing IS inferior?" I do this every day with regards to feeding. 

But by same tolken, I'd ask Raw feeders to do the same. Not necessarily whether their method is INFERIOR(I seriously doubt it is).... but maybe that it isn't WORLDS ahead of a high quality kibble like Orijen. 

Again, I'm not stating anything conclusive. But to be wise, a person ALWAYS must be open to their present position having some flaws.


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## DaneMama

Kevin you're absolutely right which is WHY I brought up the question of what exactly Shannon feeds her dog. Because I don't have any experience with (for lack of a better description) "hybrid" type raw feeding schedules that she does. What I have learned and practiced from people doing raw for a very long time (PMR, BARF, or even full pre made raw) tells me that what she feeds isn't really balanced. But who knows maybe this hybrid type of raw feeding will prove to be better over the long term. But I still won't change the way I view raw, feed it and recommend it just for the lack of experience or knowledge with other hybrid type methods. I'm not saying that Shannon is not knowledgeable or experienced with that she does, it's just that there aren't enough people who also feed the way that she does that I know of. All the forums, boards, yahoo groups on raw feeding either follow PMR or BARF, which isn't definitive at all because raw feeding as a whole is so broad spectrum.


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## ubershann

danemama08 said:


> Shannon,
> ETA: I still think that the diet you choose to feed is too much muscle meats and not enough bone or organ, since what you feed is 95% fresh muscle meat. But that is just my opinion.


I'm sorry you feel that way. I'm sorry that when I mentioned 95% you did not read what I wrote after it, that it is not an actual percentage. I don't know what the exact percentage is. The point of me saying 95% (and telling you that's not an exact percentage) is that her meal is made up mostly of meat. I do know that whatever it is, she does great on it. 

At this point, to be honest, I feel like you're just looking for any tiny little problem with the diet I feed. I could say I'm worried about you fasting your dogs every week, but I'm not. I figure you are doing what you feel is best and I leave it at that. 

For me, now that I've made it even more clear that I feed a balanced diet I still am getting something else that "makes you worry". I have a feeling unless I'm feeding PMR there will always be something wrong with it

Just remember, not too long ago no one had heard of PMR and the few who fed that way were highly criticized for it. Just sayin...


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## DaneMama

Now that you've finally given me ALL the details of what you do, I'm not as worried as before when it was very unclear to me of what you do. It just took a while for me to get the whole story. I would worry less if you fed more bone and more organ. Because while 95% muscle meats is just an approximation of what you feed it's a baseline, which to me seems too high unless you're giving an inacurrate figure (which is not hard to do if you're not measuring everything out). Nothing else about what you feed makes me uneasy, I just don't agree with it. Add more bone and organ, feed less muscle meat is what I would do because I can guarantee you that most dogs would not do so well with your feeding plans. Which may be why it works for your dog since she didn't do so well with chicken from what you say...Which is probably why I don't think it's the best to suggest for other dogs. Maybe there will be other dogs that have the same issues as Tiki that you can help. 

I really do have more of an open mind than you give me credit for.


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## ubershann

danemama08 said:


> I would worry less if you fed more bone and more organ.


Thank you for your opinion, but there is no need to worry about my dog. No more than I should be worried about your dogs :smile:


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## jdatwood

ubershann said:


> Thank you for your opinion, but there is no need to worry about my dog. No more than I should be worried about your dogs :smile:


I think we're more worried about you giving advice to people on your "hybrid" style of feeding.

You refuse to disclose sources and getting the full story is like pulling teeth.


----------



## Ania's Mommy

Where's Jay when you need him?


----------



## moon

As an innocent bystander/observer who doesn't know any of you in real life, I'd like to say it does _look_ to me like you guys are hard on ubershann and ganging up a bit - even though you may not mean to... It certainly doesn't encourage me to want to tell y'all what I feed. 

I can see how people would be intimidated and not come back to this forum... Personally I'm going to stick around though - because I have learned so much on this board and I want to learn more.


----------



## magicre

moon said:


> As an innocent bystander/observer who doesn't know any of you in real life, I'd like to say it does _look_ to me like you guys are hard on ubershann and ganging up a bit - even though you may not mean to... It certainly doesn't encourage me to want to tell y'all what I feed.
> 
> I can see how people would be intimidated and not come back to this forum... Personally I'm going to stick around though - because I have learned so much on this board and I want to learn more.


just my 2c.....when i read what's written on a forum, i also think about who is reading and lurking and never posting....since i used to moderate forums...for another business....and those forums involved many newbies who didn't know the first thing about the internet and how to make money from the internet...

and then i'd look at the posts, since i was a so called professional....and some were spot on, some had half the information, some were just trolls and some were just plain wrong....and again, i'd think about those who never posted but were always lurking and reading....

when anyone posts something that i either: don't agree with, don't understand, or think it's just plain wrong...do i not have an obligation to ask? or point out?

with raw and kibble and home cooked....all three have no science with which to take a bite out of....there is some....like sugar isn't good for dog or man....

but whether it's prey model or whole prey or barf or some hybrid....if there's something that doesn't make sense or goes against what i consider to be common sense or i just don't understand or i think the poster is wrong....i'm on a forum where questions are encouraged and opinions are just that.

if the poster wants to be sensitive or defensive, then a choice to not engage can be made.....leave the forum...throw a tantrum, complain to the mods...there are all kinds of avenues open to posters...

i do find it interesting that the 'intimidated' people only come out of hiding when there's a raw vs whatever going on.....and suddenly, everyone is being picked on, persecuted.....etc...

in truth, we are all individuals with passionate opinions, be they raw or kibble or vegetarian or whatever....and if this were a political forum...wow....we'd think this forum were a walk in the park....

the other truth....if you can't take the heat, get out of the fire.....

now..i'm not talking about you, shannon, nor am i talking about anyone else here...just a general observation that i see come up over and over again...it's like a version of the jets and the sharks...

let's all take a chill pill.....if it hadn't gone the way it went, i'd be asking shannon why she feeds cottage cheese....mainly because if it is something my dogs need or don't need, i'd like the benefit of her research, so i can research it too.....and either add it to my dogs' diets or not add it....

and if i don't agree, and everyone wasn't feeling sensitive, defensive or persecuted, i would then state my reasons for not agreeing....and shannon could then go on her merry way, continuing to feed cottage cheese and my dogs wouldn't get any.

folks, we can't learn if we don't debate.....if we back away from debating, and let our personal feelings get hurt, then it's not a debate.....a debate involves two or more people stating their side of what they believe...and, in this case...well, let's face it....can't back it up with studies....

i'm sorry, linsey, that you went back to kibble, because i know you made the hard choice when you didn't want to.....

and i'm sorry to all the people out there who feed kibble, if your sensibilities are offended because i believe in raw so much now, having once been a kibble feeder, that my opinions probably come across as too passionate...and if those opinions put you on the defensive or evoke feelings of guilt or whatever.....then i apologise for that, too, although those are YOUR feelings and you are the ones feeling them...

please don't tell me i'm intimidating you...i don't have that kind of power.....if you feel that way, it's because you allowed it to happen...and if you have the strength of your convictions, then say so....and that's a debate.


----------



## DaneMama

Ania's Mommy said:


> Where's Jay when you need him?


Gah! I know right???? He always says things the way they need to be said to bring the peace!!!!

Jay! Where are ya buddy!?!?!?


----------



## jdatwood

magicre said:


> and i'm sorry to all the people out there who feed kibble, if your sensibilities are offended because i believe in raw so much now, having once been a kibble feeder, that my opinions probably come across as too passionate...and if those opinions put you on the defensive or evoke feelings of guilt or whatever.....then i apologise for that, too, although those are YOUR feelings and you are the ones feeling them...
> 
> please don't tell me i'm intimidating you...i don't have that kind of power.....if you feel that way, it's because you allowed it to happen...and if you have the strength of your convictions, then say so....and that's a debate.


Re.... AMEN!

That's what I've been wanting to say for 8 pages now but just couldn't find the words. Thank YOU!

It makes me sad when PASSION is misconstrued as aggression to further someone's personal agenda


----------



## kevin bradley

I think most know me as being pretty objective(outside of my preference towards shelther dogs, but I found it better to let that one rest)....

Jon and Nat especially, at least to me, have always been pretty respectful of kibble feeders. Nat was kind enough to point me to sources should I ever make the move to Raw, which is a strong possibility. 

Its kind of hard to ask someone to take their passion for doing whats right out of the equation.


But NEVER have I seen them attack anyone. Hell, I've posted tons out here on kibble. I've never been challenged by either of them. 

Like I said, I CAN see how this thread could be construed as a jab at kibble feeders. But honestly, I don't think that was the intent.


----------



## kevin bradley

magicre said:


> folks, we can't learn if we don't debate.....if we back away from debating, and let our personal feelings get hurt, then it's not a debate.....a debate involves two or more people stating their side of what they believe...and, in this case...well, let's face it....can't back it up with studies....



Amen Re. 

That about sums it up. 

Do we want a forum where we say what makes all of us FEEL good if its WRONG? 

Old Roy? yeah, great food! Keep up the good work. Glad its WORKING FOR YOU! Your Dog is still ALIVE, right? Must be working. Great.


----------



## ubershann

jdatwood said:


> You refuse to disclose sources and getting the full story is like pulling teeth.


Oh good god. 

I don't refuse to disclose anything. No one, until this thread, has asked me exactly what I feed. I've never hidden anything. And my sources? Well if it was as easy as saying "Wolves do it, obviously my dog should do it too!" then I'd have said that. That's pretty much the theory I hear behind PMR and have never attacked anyone for not providing sources (not just other PMR feeder's website). 

I have many sources. I have sources in dog nutrition, dog anatomy and physiology, basic nutrition, general cell biology, the list goes on. I'm sorry that coming to a web site to gain more information requires me to list a bibliography at the end of every post. I wasn't aware of that rule.

If there is something specific you want to know, ask me. Then maybe it wouldn't feel like pulling teeth since I would know what it is you're looking to discredit. When a broad question is presented, and I give a broad answer, apparently I'm just trying to hide something. Give me a break!


----------



## ubershann

magicre said:


> if the poster wants to be sensitive or defensive, then a choice to not engage can be made.....leave the forum...throw a tantrum, complain to the mods...there are all kinds of avenues open to posters...


I agree, but when I've said I really don't want to get into why I feed the way I do (because apparently I have to justify not feeding PMR) then people say I'm hiding something and refusing to answer and have no confidence in what I'm feeding (those have all been said to me). I didn't want to get into a big debate, but when I tried saying I didn't want to debate why I feed this way then I was basically told I didn't have a leg to stand on. 

I just find it funny that a group of people who feed in a way that has long been criticized, and even is highly criticized now even though it is gaining in popularity, seem to think it's ok to treat my style of feeding the exact same way their style of feeding has been treated for years. Every single thing that has been said about my style of feeding has been said before about PMR


----------



## DaneMama

Awe Re and Kevin, you guys are awesome!!!

Shannon, the research we as PMR feeders have done is very extensive. It's not just about feeding what wolves eat in the wild. Most of us here are well established in this community and have given all the resources needed to credit our decisions. You as a newcomer should present your information not only to give other people a chance at understanding your decisions but also helping others do research. There's no reason for you to be so uptight about it. Sharing information is a great thing!!! Even if some people won't agree with it... And do you realize that this whole debate wouldn't have happened if you would be forthcoming with information and research?


----------



## ubershann

kevin bradley said:


> Like I said, I CAN see how this thread could be construed as a jab at kibble feeders. But honestly, I don't think that was the intent.


I should probably clarify, I feed raw but I don't feed PMR, which is what everyone else in the raw forum feeds. That's where the problem came in. My raw feeding style is looked at as no good by the rest. 

I have no problem with kibble feeders, as long as they're choosing a good quality kibble :wink:


----------



## ubershann

danemama08 said:


> Shannon, the research we as PMR feeders have done is very extensive. It's not just about feeding what wolves eat in the wild. Most of us here are well established in this community and have given all the resources needed to credit our decisions. You as a newcomer should present your information not only to give other people a chance at understanding your decisions but also helping others do research. There's no reason for you to be so uptight about it. Sharing information is a great thing!!! Even if some people won't agree with it...


I'm glad you are happy with your feeding decision. I am happy with mine. 

I am not pushing anyone to feed the way I do, and if they have an interest in how I feed and want more information I am happy to point them in the right direction. I will not be writing a thesis paper with full source list every time I have a comment to make. 

And to clarify for all, by me not throwing out every source and tiny bit of information in my head that might have something to do with dog feeding does not mean I am being secretive. If anyone has any questions I am willing to answer them. If you want to debate it and tear it apart, please feel free to do it among yourselves.


----------



## CorgiPaws

ubershann said:


> ).
> I have many sources. I have sources in dog nutrition, dog anatomy and physiology, basic nutrition, general cell biology, the list goes on. I'm sorry that coming to a web site to gain more information requires me to list a bibliography at the end of every post. I wasn't aware of that rule.


It's not that coming here to learn requires that. Not by ANY means. BUT, just like anyone would like people to explain the answers they're given, it's nice if you did, too. 
I am NOT criticizing the way you feed, nor have I in this entire thread... if you want people to understand it better, perhaps taking on the role of educator would be a positive thing for the forum. Neat, you feed that, why? Why does it work? Tell us your sources? How did you come to where you are? 
if you DONT want to discuss it, (i get that you already have, this is more or less my take on hiw this thread has turned) then that's fine. BUT don't expect support in turn, when no one is understanding it in the first place. 




ubershann said:


> I agree, but when I've said I really don't want to get into why I feed the way I do (because apparently I have to justify not feeding PMR) then people say I'm hiding something and refusing to answer and have no confidence in what I'm feeding (those have all been said to me).


That's not it. BUT, if you want your discussions to have ANY merit on the forum, then you must support them. If we have no idea where you're coming from, what you know, what you do, what you believe, then how are we supposed to have confidence in your advice? 



ubershann said:


> I just find it funny that a group of people who feed in a way that has long been criticized, and even is highly criticized now even though it is gaining in popularity, seem to think it's ok to treat my style of feeding the exact same way their style of feeding has been treated for years. Every single thing that has been said about my style of feeding has been said before about PMR


It's not a matter of "What you feed is bad! you're bad!"
It's the lack of explanation other than blind defensiveness that's turning people off. 




That being said, this thread is dancing in offensive/ defensive circles, so unless there's anything constructive to add, it's about time it be put to rest. Shake hands, be friends, and move on. 
I think that having non-PMR raw feeders adds value to the forum. It opens up a whole different way of feeding to be discussed on the forum, and means that THAT many more people can come here and get positive advice on how to do the BEST for their pets, within their personal limitations or beliefs. 
Not everyone is going to feed kibble. 
not everyone is going to feed BARF
not everyone is going to feed PMR
not everyone is going to feed... whatever this way of feeding is called

I think it would be GREAT to open the doors for ALL feeding methods to be able to come here, and learn how to do whatever method they have their hearts set on optimally.


----------



## DaneMama

ubershann said:


> I should probably clarify, I feed raw but I don't feed PMR, which is what everyone else in the raw forum feeds. That's where the problem came in. My raw feeding style is looked at as no good by the rest.
> 
> I have no problem with kibble feeders, as long as they're choosing a good quality kibble :wink:


Now you're just throwing every raw feeder here into a lump mass? Not everyone here who feeds raw does PMR.


----------



## CorgiPaws

ubershann said:


> if they have an interest in how I feed and want more information I am happy to point them in the right direction. I will not be writing a thesis paper with full source list every time I have a comment to make.


I wonder how many people are looking for this exact kind of help, but had no idea that you could help them, because they had no idea anyone here fed in that manner. 

I know I had no idea, and had I have been someone looking for advice on your style of feeding, I'd never have known that you could be a resource!


So, thank you for putting it out there. You'll be able to help a lot more people now!


----------



## moon

magicre said:


> please don't tell me i'm intimidating you...i don't have that kind of power.....if you feel that way, it's because you allowed it to happen...and if you have the strength of your convictions, then say so....and that's a debate.


Oh please. First, I may be new, but certainly no lurker. I merely said how things looked to me - my opinion as someone new hoping you could see another point of view - and you replied with a long diatribe wrapped in silk and cotton... Then you finish up by telling me it is my fault if I feel intimidated? That is classic passive-agressive manipulation. Pffft... No you don't intimidate me - but you may intimidate others who do lurk. 

And don't try and say it wasn't pointed at me - you quoted MY post.

And look at all the "thanks" you got for that. *shakes head* Do you not see how that appears as ganging up?


----------



## DaneMama

moon said:


> Oh please. First, I may be new, but certainly no lurker. I merely said how things looked to me - my opinion as someone new hoping you could see another point of view - and you replied with a long diatribe wrapped in silk and cotton... Then you finish up by telling me it is my fault if I feel intimidated? That is classic passive-agressive manipulation. Pffft... No you don't intimidate me - but you may intimidate others who do lurk.
> 
> And don't try and say it wasn't pointed at me - you quoted MY post.
> 
> And look at all the "thanks" you got for that. *shakes head* Do you not see how that appears as ganging up?


Not ganging up, just thanking her for a well said post. We've seen this happen time and time again. One person feels attacked and ganged up on AND THEN other people chime in saying how horrible everyone is treated here. I just don't get it. Sorry you feel ganged up on...


----------



## jdatwood

ubershann said:


> I really don't want to get into why I feed the way I do (because apparently I have to justify not feeding PMR)


Let's make this VERY simple. We're not asking you to justify NOT feeding PMR. We are asking to understand your version of raw....

If you're going to recommend your style of feeding here on DFC you need to be ready to defend it. If you don't want to "get into it", don't advise people on how to feed. 

In my YEARS of research and experience I've NEVER EVER EVER heard of your "style" of "raw". (and no, it's not just reading other PMR feeders websites )

You say you feed
meat
cottage cheese (dogs are lactose intolerant BTW)
partially cooked veggies (I know when my dogs eat veggies, they poop veggies the next day... )
"raw" patties on occasion
unnamed vitamin

If you are going to advise people how to feed this random raw diet and have our support you're going to need to defend it in some manner... We know our collective experience and education on the matter and I've yet to hear someone say they feel it's a complete or appropriate diet (except you)

I'm all for supporting other "methods" of raw if they're backed by SOMETHING

BARF feeders... great! They're feeding meat, bones, organs, and veggies (and typically supplements). The veggies & supplements certainly won't hurt the dog

So please, I really would love to be schooled on your version of "raw" feeding. In all seriousness... If there are other alternatives I want to know about them so they can be recommended to someone that's in need of one.





ubershann said:


> My raw feeding style is looked at as no good by the rest.


We don't know what your "style" is. We've never heard of it. We just know that we feel it's lacking. We're just asking for clarification and education.. *sigh*


----------



## jdatwood

moon said:


> And don't try and say it wasn't pointed at me - you quoted MY post.
> 
> And look at all the "thanks" you got for that. *shakes head* Do you not see how that appears as ganging up?


I can say with 100% certainty that it wasn't directed at YOU :wink:

It was a generalized post that applies to anyone that takes it to heart

We're thanking her because what she said rings very true.


----------



## moon

danemama08 said:


> Not ganging up, just thanking her for a well said post. We've seen this happen time and time again. One person feels attacked and ganged up on AND THEN other people chime in saying how horrible everyone is treated here. I just don't get it. Sorry you feel ganged up on...


I was trying to get everyone to see how it could be _*construed*_ that way. (And if it happens time and again then I'm not the only one who notices.) People chime in because they feel compelled to come to the rescue of someone who appears to be being picked on. I would just like everyone to stop and think about it. That's all.


----------



## deb9017

I am really new to this forum, but here is my take on the whole thing. No one is trying to CONDENM anyone for the feeding choices that they make. Ubershann, no one is trying to say that you are not doing what you think it best for your dog. Like everyone else here, obviously you care about your dog, probably more than the average owner, because you are here discussing your dogs diet, while a lot of people are out there at Wal Mart, or wherever, buying the cheapest food they can. 

I think the point is that no one can really endorse your choice, or encourage you to recommend it to others, without understanding it. The people who are moderators here, and are looked to as somewhat of an authority by others, would be remiss in their responsibilities if they did not make sure their positions on this kind of thing are understood. I am not saying your diet is lacking, because (a.) I don't know enough about nutrition in general to make that decision, and (b.) I don't know much about the diet that you feed. But what if you showed up here, promoting a diet that was unhealthy, and no one said anything. Then other new people would show up, read the information, and maybe try it for themselves without researching. This is why I think it is important for others to understand before they can give blessing to someone promoting a diet that is not really mainstream. I am not saying that PMR is superior to your diet, because I dont know. But PMR is widespread enough that when people use that term, others understand. It is not completely new or unknown.

I think we are all here trying to do what is best for our babies!


----------



## DaneMama

Very well said Deb!!!!!!!! Awesome post and *EXACTLY* what Ive been trying to sat this whole time!!!!!!!


----------



## luvMyBRT

magicre said:


> i do find it interesting that the 'intimidated' people only come out of hiding when there's a raw vs whatever going on.....and suddenly, everyone is being picked on, persecuted.....etc...


I find this VERY interesting too.....

GREAT post re! :smile:


----------



## BrownieM

"please don't tell me i'm intimidating you...i don't have that kind of power.....if you feel that way, it's because you allowed it to happen...and if you have the strength of your convictions, then say so....and that's a debate."

I find this to be completely offensive and unwelcoming. The point is that PMR feeders need to have an open mind just as us NON PMR feeders have an open mind. The point is that it feels quite unwelcoming here for a non PMR feeder.


----------



## Doc

Well, I can call my buddy Jimmy Carter if it would help bring peace in here.:smile:

It's true, kibble feeders are the minority and are profiled by the masses - anyone can see that. This is a a forum about dog food isn't it? Not raw diets? So any discussion should be allowed that pertains to dog food. Any editorials or personal biases should be left at the door upon entry. IMO

If one wants to discuss the kibble diet, it should be allowed to happen without inferences about the "superiority of raw" and the same about raw feeding.

Any dialoge about any type of dog food should be viewed as an opportunity to learn, especially in a "dog food chat" forum. It doesn't matter if you agree or not, just keep your own mind open. If you can't contribute something pertaining to the topic - then don't say anything.

At the end of the day, we all feed our dogs a diet that we feel is good for our dog. That diet may be kibble, it may be raw. Dogs have lived many years eating both.


----------



## luvMyBRT

BrownieM said:


> I find this to be completely offensive and unwelcoming. The point is that PMR feeders need to have an open mind just as us NON PMR feeders have an open mind. The point is that it feels quite unwelcoming here for a non PMR feeder.


I find it funny that you consider all non PMR feeders to have such an open mind...lol...


----------



## CorgiPaws

BrownieM said:


> "please don't tell me i'm intimidating you...i don't have that kind of power.....if you feel that way, it's because you allowed it to happen...and if you have the strength of your convictions, then say so....and that's a debate."
> 
> I find this to be completely offensive and unwelcoming. The point is that PMR feeders need to have an open mind just as us NON PMR feeders have an open mind. The point is that it feels quite unwelcoming here for a non PMR feeder.


How is this so? Kibble questions get kibble answers. 

I can't help but wonder hoe many kibble feeders mosey on over to the raw section, and get pissed off about the pro-raw comments there, because I certainly don't see much raw in the kibble section at all.


----------



## BrownieM

saraj2878 said:


> I find it funny that you consider all non PMR feeders to have such an open mind...lol...


Why the sarcasm?

I guess what I meant to say is " the PMR feeders who speak up the most." I am sure there are many PMR feeders who have an open mind, but they aren't speaking up as much.


----------



## BrownieM

CorgiPaws said:


> How is this so? Kibble questions get kibble answers.
> 
> I can't help but wonder hoe many kibble feeders mosey on over to the raw section, and get pissed off about the pro-raw comments there, because I certainly don't see much raw in the kibble section at all.


A moderator, who IMO should be the example of an open, accepting mind, created a thread in the kibble section that somewhat bashed kibble. 

Now, I am sure that she did not mean to do that. She wanted to explain that she is switching to kibble because of circumstances, etc. But, the way that it was presented did not come off quite as innocent as it may have been intended. And unfortunately, on the internet the way you come off is often more important than what you mean in the first place.


----------



## CorgiPaws

BrownieM said:


> Why the sarcasm?
> 
> I guess what I meant to say is " the PMR feeders who speak up the most." I am sure there are many PMR feeders who have an open mind, but they aren't speaking up as much.


Are you freaking kidding me?
I went from PMR to kibble.
I have been called a LOT of things... close-minded is NOT one of them... 
Natalie has not given me an ounce of a hard time about my choice. 
Nor has Jon. 
Nor has RFD.
Nor has Sara



Not ONE of them have. And they are close minded? I am terribly sorry but someone not agreeing with you does NOT make them close minded. 

Because I'm sure it otherwise would be misunderstood, I feel the need to point out that the remainder of this post is NOT related to the quotation in this post. 
To be quite frank: WHY do any of us feed what we do? Because we feel its best. You feed what you think is best. PMR feeders feed what they think is best. Homecookers feed what they think is best. So don't sit there and say that we are close minded because we feed PMR. We aren't willing to feed anything else because we have yet to find anything else that so much as touches the results we see on PMR. Imagine that. We have reasoning!! So yes, you're absolutely right, PMR feeders DO IN FACT feel that what they feed is the BEST and that everything else is inferior. Deal with that however you'd like, BUT has EVERY SINGLE raw feeder here been there to answer kibble questions without infusing this "raw agenda" that is complained about? absolutely. 

I firmly believe on PMR, but recognize that it's just not doable in every single situation. In which case, I went with the best possible that suits our position at the moment. 





Can we all put on our big kid undies and quit being SO offended by every single little comment.


----------



## BrownieM

CorgiPaws said:


> Are you freaking kidding me?
> I went from PMR to kibble.
> I have been called a LOT of things... close-minded is NOT one of them...
> Natalie has not given me an ounce of a hard time about my choice.
> Nor has Jon.
> Nor has RFD.
> Nor has Sara
> 
> 
> 
> Not ONE of them have. And they are close minded? I am terribly sorry but someone not agreeing with you does NOT make them close minded.
> 
> 
> To be quite frank: WHY do any of us feed what we do? Because we feel its best. You feed what you think is best. PMR feeders feed what they think is best. Homecookers feed what they think is best. So don't sit there and say that we are close minded because we feed PMR. We aren't willing to feed anything else because we have yet to find anything else that so much as touches the results we see on PMR. Imagine that. We have reasoning!! So yes, you're absolutely right, PMR feeders DO IN FACT feel that what they feed is the BEST and that everything else is inferior. Deal with that however you'd like, BUT has EVERY SINGLE raw feeder here been there to answer kibble questions without infusing this "raw agenda" that is complained about? absolutely.
> 
> I firmly believe on PMR, but recognize that it's just not doable in every single situation. In which case, I went with the best possible that suits our position at the moment. Can we all put on our big kid undies and quit being SO offended by every single little comment.



I'm sorry, I really did not mean to offend you. In fact, I mentioned in my next post that I thought you had good intentions when starting this thread. 

Maybe I shouldn't talk because I am very new here and I do not post much. I just meant that the overall feel I get from PMR feeders here. I did not mean to single out anybody in particular. And maybe I wouldn't feel this way if I knew the other members here better. I simply wanted to point out that it would be a good idea for everyone, kibble feeders and raw feeders (including PMR feeders), and hybrid feeders to keep an open mind. I did not mean to imply that you did not have an open mind. 

Sorry if I was unclear.

And again, I did not have the intention of lumping all PMR feeders into one closed-minded group in any of my posts.


----------



## CorgiPaws

BrownieM said:


> I'm sorry, I really did not mean to offend you. In fact, I mentioned in my next post that I thought you had good intentions when starting this thread.


_ apologize the way it came across. I have moved this thread into the general section, so hopefully it will be less likely to be taken offensively by anyone._



BrownieM said:


> Maybe I shouldn't talk because I am very new here and I do not post much.


No, we value any members opinions and views, but please understand that when you lump a group of people together, and then say we're close minded, it probably won't be all bunnies and butterflies. I for one would love for you to stay.:smile:



BrownieM said:


> And maybe I wouldn't feel this way if I knew the other members here better.


Well, the only way to get to know us is to hang around! So it's settled... you'll stay. :tongue: I think that something I know I personally need to keep in mind is that some of us are good friends off the forum. We "get" what eachother means. We talk. We hang out. I think sometimes that friendship does make us be defensive of eachother... naturally. I think that group mentality is often times misunderstood through postings as aggression. 



BrownieM said:


> I simply wanted to point out that it would be a good idea for everyone, kibble feeders and raw feeders (including PMR feeders), and hybrid feeders to keep an open mind.


I think this is wonderful advice. :smile:


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## DaneMama

I totally agree with you BrownieM...there are multiple ways to feed a dog. But this forum us here so we can discuss, analyze, debate, criticize, give advice, etc, etc on ALL these different diets. That goes for raw, kibble, or anything else inbetween. So when someone joins with a "new" way to feed raw that none of us experienced raw feeders know nothing about, of course we want to do all the analyzing of it as we can. If anything just to learn something new! It's not about what's better than what or a competition. We are a community of people who are ALL dedicated with furthering the knowledge of canine nutrition. I just wish everyone would participate without getting hurt....


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## luvMyBRT

BrownieM said:


> Why the sarcasm?
> 
> I guess what I meant to say is " the PMR feeders who speak up the most." I am sure there are many PMR feeders who have an open mind, but they aren't speaking up as much.


In this post you are still lumping all of us PMR feeders who have been posting as close minded...and everyone else is so open minded....

No sarcasm...I just found it funny.

If I am remembering correctly, this whole PMR feeders vs. everyone else was started by Natalie ASKING questions to try to LEARN about how Shannon feeds...how is that close minded??


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## RCTRIPLEFRESH5

CorgiPaws said:


> Are you freaking kidding me?
> I went from PMR to kibble.
> I have been called a LOT of things... close-minded is NOT one of them...
> Natalie has not given me an ounce of a hard time about my choice.
> Nor has Jon.
> Nor has RFD.
> Nor has Sara
> 
> 
> 
> Not ONE of them have. And they are close minded? I am terribly sorry but someone not agreeing with you does NOT make them close minded.
> 
> Because I'm sure it otherwise would be misunderstood, I feel the need to point out that the remainder of this post is NOT related to the quotation in this post.
> To be quite frank: WHY do any of us feed what we do? Because we feel its best. You feed what you think is best. PMR feeders feed what they think is best. Homecookers feed what they think is best. So don't sit there and say that we are close minded because we feed PMR. We aren't willing to feed anything else because we have yet to find anything else that so much as touches the results we see on PMR. Imagine that. We have reasoning!! So yes, you're absolutely right, PMR feeders DO IN FACT feel that what they feed is the BEST and that everything else is inferior. Deal with that however you'd like, BUT has EVERY SINGLE raw feeder here been there to answer kibble questions without infusing this "raw agenda" that is complained about? absolutely.
> 
> I firmly believe on PMR, but recognize that it's just not doable in every single situation. In which case, I went with the best possible that suits our position at the moment.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Can we all put on our big kid undies and quit being SO offended by every single little comment.


nothing against them, but they havent given u a hard time about ur ''choice'' because they kknow deep down u want to feed raw,and would if u could. they dont really support ur choice, but they do support your decision to do what u are being forced to do as your friend. overall they would agree pmr is where their heart is


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## moon

saraj2878 said:


> If I am remembering correctly, this whole PMR feeders vs. everyone else was started by Natalie ASKING questions to try to LEARN about how Shannon feeds...how is that close minded??


It wasn't the simply asking... I really like danemama and her eye for detail is a huge asset. She would make a great trial lawyer! At first she was simply asking - then it was obvious Ubershann didn't want to have the conversation... And others piled on and wouldn't let it go... 

So I kept wondering why they didn't let it go... Was there more here than meets the eye? Is it only a PMR raw vs different raw thing? A kibble vs raw thing? It seems obvious people are coming from wounds already opened before. 

Then when I tried to point out how it looked to an outsider (myself) the wagons were circled, (yes, it comes across as a clique to me) and in my opinion people stopped actually reading whole posts objectively and started reacting emotionally.

Emotions give people tunnel vision and they begin not to notice the whole picture... 

The worst words to use when dealing with someone with an opposing view: "but, always, every, however, etc..." "But" is the worst word to use because it negates everything that was said before, as in: "Bless your heart you are so sweet, *but* you are a few bulbs short of a chandelier." 

Now is that a compliment? Or a jab? It could be taken both ways. As could any post with "but" in it.

Now I'll butt out - lol!


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## DaneMama

Moon, the only reason why I didn't "let it be" so to speak because she was posting giving other people advice on various occasions that I didn't feel was "ok" without knowing more about what she feeds. Like I stated earlier, if we are going to be giving people advice on opinion alone it must be backed up with at least some kind of explanation to be objective. I at least think that is fair....but I may be wrong there. What are your thoughts on that aspect?

For example, let's say a newb kibble feeder comes here asking for advice about a particular food and if it's considered good. As a general rule we look at ingredients, nutrition facts and manufacturer to determine this. I think it's pretty common knowledge here what makes a good kibble at least amongst the established members or even the people that are "dog savvy". Especially the people giving advice to the OP about their food know a good deal about what commonly makes a good food.

We as raw feeders must do the same. While there are different modes of raw feeding that are common knowledge to us, there must be others modes out there, like the one that Shannon feeds. So when a newb raw feeder comes here with their own "hybrid" type of feeding program it's natural for us to want to analyze it, especially when she posts up about it on numerous occasions. 

I'm sure all the kibble feeders would flock to a newb that has a new food promoting it. If there was really no good information about it to be found, you'd depend on that member to provide information about said food. Not necessarily so you can disregard it, but just so you all know it's a good thing to promote. 

Does this make my intent seem a bit more clear? I hope it does. Because my intent was certainly not to bully her, that is just not a good thing to do. I sincerely apologize to all that were offended, but I won't really take back what has been said up til now. I said it all for a reason and hopefully that reason is a bit more clear now....? Please tell me if not and I will try and explain myself in a different way...


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## moon

:smile: Yes exactly! Thank you, danamama, I always thought you were coming from the right place. 

I can see how you wouldn't want someone giving what might turn out to be bad advice. I agree whole heartedly that we all want what's best for our dogs.


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## DaneMama

Yeah sometimes I just have a hard time finding the right words I want LOL


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## Doc

Is it time to sing Kum Ba Yah?


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## moon

Not without a fire, marshmallows and chocolate.


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## DaneMama

Now we're talkin'!!!!!


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## ubershann

danemama08 said:


> We've seen this happen time and time again. One person feels attacked and ganged up on AND THEN other people chime in saying how horrible everyone is treated here. I just don't get it.


If you've seen it happen time and again, maybe that should say something


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## jdatwood

Doc said:


> Is it time to sing Kum Ba Yah?


Uhh.. can we just do the campfire and s'mores without the holding hands lovey dovey stuff? :biggrin:


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## deb9017

I am a big fan of group hugs, myself. :biggrin:


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## ubershann

jdatwood said:


> In my YEARS of research and experience I've NEVER EVER EVER heard of your "style" of "raw". (and no, it's not just reading other PMR feeders websites )



So that's the standard? If it has a name it's valid, but if not then it's obviously garbage? Interesting view.

And I have named the supplement I give my dog many, many times. In fact I'm pretty sure I've posted links to the web site. I've talked about it, the ingredients, who makes it, how much we sell at the store, which supplements we sell more of, etc. So I'm sorry if you pop in for 5 minutes, read what you feel like reading, then ignore the rest.


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## DaneMama

Um...I think we are all pretty much over this whole topic, at least I am. By all means if anyone else wants to continue discussing this feel free to do so. I can say that I've been having a good time with this thread and debate! So thanks to all! It's been a while since we've had a good challenging discussion on here. 

I figure going for a hike with my dogs and Jon sounds like a better plan to me :wink: :biggrin: :tongue:


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## jdatwood

ubershann said:


> So that's the standard? If it has a name it's valid, but if not then it's obviously garbage? Interesting view.
> 
> And I have named the supplement I give my dog many, many times. In fact I'm pretty sure I've posted links to the web site. I've talked about it, the ingredients, who makes it, how much we sell at the store, which supplements we sell more of, etc. So I'm sorry if you pop in for 5 minutes, read what you feel like reading, then ignore the rest.


Yep, that's EXACTLY what I said. It has to have a name 

I said I'd never heard of your "style" meaning I've never read about ANYONE feeding this odd mixture you've decided on. 

I don't give a hoot WHAT you CALL it... 

I didn't say it's garbage either

I DID ask for more information since introducing people to raw feeding is something I'm VERY passionate about.

Maybe you have posted the supplement's name. My apologies if you have and I've overlooked it. 

Yeah, I surely am someone that only pops in for 5 minutes huh?  

I'll leave you with this...

If you're not willing to share more detailed information about your diet please don't recommend it to other people here on DFC.

We've asked

You avoid

We asked again nicely

You avoid

Sorry... not going to back your advice then


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## ubershann

saraj2878 said:


> If I am remembering correctly, this whole PMR feeders vs. everyone else was started by Natalie ASKING questions to try to LEARN about how Shannon feeds...how is that close minded??


I'm pretty sure that's not quite how it started, it wasn't until later, after I had been accused of secrecy, not being confident in the diet I feed, and that I'm trying to hide what I feed that. 

The funny thing is no one had EVER asked me what I feed. They've asked small parts of it, and I've always answered, but I'm sick of this bs about everyone just wanting to learn and help each other when up until now, no one has ever bothered to ASK what I feed and has gone ahead and made judgments that I'm purposely trying to be secretive and hide what I feed. It's simply not true, and honestly feels a bit high schoolish


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## jdatwood

How quickly they forget... 




danemama08 said:


> What *exactly* do you feed your dog? I just want to know, just in case you come here with a question or something....because you always post up saying that you feed raw, but say that you don't do PMR. Sounds to me like you do BARF? I'm merely curious...


Let's break this down for those that are having trouble 

1. Natalie asked "what *exactly* do you feed your dog?

Sounds to me like she wants to know what your raw diet contains. No attack, no accusations... a simple question. You'd previously mentioned this "hybrid" form of raw but you'd never said what it contained. She asked you quite simply...

2. Natalie said "I just want to know, just in case you come here with a question or something"

She's trying to understand WHAT you feed so she can better help you if needed

3. Then came "because you always post up saying that you feed raw, but say that you don't do PMR. Sounds to me like you do BARF? I'm merely curious...

I still don't see the attack or accusations... 

I'm sorry you're "sick of this bs about everyone just wanting to learn and help each other" but that's how this whole thing began as evidenced above. 

Let's now review your response to Natalie



> I feed what I've found through my own research to be the best diet for my dog. I hope you can understand that because the raw thinking in this forum is highly swayed in the direction of PMR,* I don't really want to get into what I feed and why I choose to feed it.*


I've bolded the part which I feel enforces why some of us have said you've not been willing to be forthcoming with full details. You say you haven't tried to "hide" anything but you certainly were't willing to go into details.

She also asked you a few VALID questions which you conveniently ignored like 



> What exactly do you know your dog needs? Does she *need* cottage cheese? And why do you feel that she needs cottage cheese...when dogs are lactose intolerant?


She even ended with 



> Sorry, the curious cat within me is just wanting answers :wink:


Sorry, I'm still struggling to see the attacks...

Here's where these posts are just in case you'd like to confirm I'm not making this up to back up "my side"
http://dogfoodchat.com/forum/genera...-well-were-back-kibble-again-2.html#post45560

I'm going to have lunch with the love of my life, go for a nice long walk with our 5 dogs in this beautiful fall Colorado weather and just enjoy my day. Life is too short

It'd be amazing to come back and see this thing has ended. It's just getting tired at this point


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## ubershann

danemama08 said:


> Moon, the only reason why I didn't "let it be" so to speak because she was posting giving other people advice on various occasions that I didn't feel was "ok" without knowing more about what she feeds.


Why is it, that if you are all so concerned about the advice I've given (more of stating my own experience, but call it whatever you want), that you have waited months to just now finally ask me about what I feed? 

And I don't promote my style of feeding. The closest I've come is stating to one or two people that yes, raw can be fed in a dish not out in the garage (or patio or backyard, etc.). I'm not looking to bring newcomers into my "group" I'm just trying to feed my dog and expand my own knowledge, not just for me, but for the many customers who come to my store and are looking for a better quality kibble. 

If your agenda is to add to the number of PMR feeders then great, but mine is to learn. If someone has a certain problem that I've encountered you're darn sure I'll tell them what my experience is. I would hope others would do the same for me, no matter what style they fed. 

The thing is, no matter how I explain my diet on the raw board, there will be something wrong with it in the PMR feeder's eyes. There are so many varying opinions on what's healthy and not healthy for dogs, and no studies to back any of them up. So while you, and others here, may believe strongly in the way you feed and the reasons behind it, there are just as many people who feel strongly about other ways of feeding. 

So until you really have something that can irrefutably show that your way is the absolute right, best way, then I don't see why your beliefs and opinions have any right to pick apart or criticize my beliefs and opinions. It's like sitting a Jew and a Christian in a room together and letting them argue about who's God is the real God. It's ridiculous and in the end will get you no where.


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## DaneMama

Jon- are so on the same page. I was just going back to re-read the first couple of posts we all made to double check what was said. Maybe others should do the same if there is still confusion about how all this clusterfrack happened!


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## jdatwood

ubershann said:


> The thing is, no matter how I explain my diet on the raw board, there will be something wrong with it in the PMR feeder's eyes.


You're right, until we understand it we certainly would find things wrong with it. 

I can't comprehend why you're still taking this avoidance stance. We simply want to understand YOUR version of raw. We've never seen it, don't understand it.

Once we understand it, sure we might still feel it's wrong but that's our right. We're not going to drag you over the coals every day for your choices though


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## DaneMama

Shannon, I'm going for a walk with my dogs now. Maybe you should do the same :wink:


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## ubershann

jdatwood said:


> Let's break this down for those that are having trouble ...


*sigh* 

Yes, those were the _only_ things being said through this whole discussion. And I've certainly never had to deal with it before this thread. Ever. Maybe if she wants to send you the private messages where I told her what I feed you'd see I was not hiding anything. I did leave out a few minor things since I did not realize at the time she was getting ready to rip it apart.

If I wanted to go back and cut out a few words here and there I could slant it my way too. 

Fact is, this obviously isn't the place for me. I'm not a PMR feeder and never will be. I don't think anyone else's anecdotal evidence outweighs the anecdotal evidence I've gathered in other places. And in raw feeding that's pretty much all there is. But it's clear that the only opinion that holds any weight around here is PMR. 

I have never tried swaying anyone to feed the way I do, I could care less how anyone chooses to feed. I've come across this crazy unnamed style of feeding after much research and working with several people in my real life who feed the same way. Sorry if you don't like it. No, actually I'm not sorry. If you don't like it, oh well. 

So good luck to all of you in your adventures. I hope you can help many people looking to feed PMR. I think it's time for me to look for a group that is more tolerant of different feeding styles, and doesn't choose to so harshly "criticize" any feeding style other than their own. 

And to those of you looking to go raw but not PMR, good luck!


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## DaneMama

ubershann said:


> *sigh*
> 
> Yes, those were the _only_ things being said through this whole discussion. And I've certainly never had to deal with it before this thread. Ever. Maybe if she wants to send you the private messages where I told her what I feed you'd see I was not hiding anything. I did leave out a few minor things since I did not realize at the time she was getting ready to rip it apart.


The private messages you sent to me said the exact same things you said you feed here on this thread. So nothing new there. Rip it apart, analyze it, try and understand it....YES!!! That is what this forum is here for. You say that you are here to learn, I would think that you would welcome other opinions on what you feed. I certainly don't, I figure any kind of constructive criticism is a good thing. Its whether or not I choose to heed it. AND I don't let others say change the way I feel about this community.



> If I wanted to go back and cut out a few words here and there I could slant it my way too.


Um, you have done that actually. Just sayin'



> Fact is, this obviously isn't the place for me. I'm not a PMR feeder and never will be. I don't think anyone else's anecdotal evidence outweighs the anecdotal evidence I've gathered in other places. And in raw feeding that's pretty much all there is. But it's clear that the only opinion that holds any weight around here is PMR.


This is where you are absolutely, positively, incredibly 1000000% wrong. Its just that the overwhelming population of raw feeders here are PMRers. That isn't an invitation for you to leave. In fact I am at least one person here that wants you to stay and learn. I know that there are others (If not ALL the members here) that would say the same.



> I have never tried swaying anyone to feed the way I do, I could care less how anyone chooses to feed. I've come across this crazy unnamed style of feeding after much research and working with several people in my real life who feed the same way. Sorry if you don't like it. No, actually I'm not sorry. If you don't like it, oh well.


No, I haven't seen you try and sway people to your style of feeding, but I have seen you say things that can have negative effect on newbie raw feeders which is why it made me uncomfortable, and not until recently this happened or I would have spoken up sooner. I don't want you to be sorry for the way you feed either, be confident in it enough to share it with the world. EVERY facet of WHAT and WHY you feed it. I do...take a look at the website (that is well referenced and backed by my research) that I wrote up for others to follow. Maybe you should do the same...???



> So good luck to all of you in your adventures. I hope you can help many people looking to feed PMR. I think it's time for me to look for a group that is more tolerant of different feeding styles, and doesn't choose to so harshly "criticize" any feeding style other than their own.


Ugh. You are totally getting way more worked up than you need to be. If you feel that you don't want to be apart of this community you are more than welcome to go, but just remember that is YOUR choice and your choice alone. No one is asking or forcing you to leave. 

Wouldn't you criticize something you didn't think was right? Debate it with that said person? If that's not ok with you, this forum really isn't the place for you. We get into deep debates and you have to be on top of your game and not let emotions get the best of you.

Good luck with whatever you choose to do :biggrin:


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## CorgiPaws

danemama08 said:


> Maybe others should do the same if there is still confusion about how all this clusterfrack happened!


hehe... you said Clusterfrack.

I was more or less thinking clusterfook but clusterfrack is pretty neat, too. :tongue:


Plenty of people feel PMR is wrong. Therefore they don't feed it. That's fine. 
Plenty of people feel this "other" raw diet is wrong. Therefore they don't feed it. That's fine. 
Plenty of people feel kibble is evil. Therefore they don't feed it. That's fine. 

Assuming we're all adults here, it should be no problem to carry on without grudges. THis is a DOG FOOD forum. *This is a place to discuss, explain, challenge, support, dissect, and debate ideas.* If anyone feels that they can not do this, then perhaps a public forum isn't a fit. I'd hate to lose valuable members over something so silly. This is what forums are FOR. To learn.* How can we learn if we are first unwilling to both EXPLAIN our thoughts AND to LISTEN to others? If we're not willing to first do that, then we will get nowhere. *

I'd LOVE to see sub forums in the raw community. One for PMR, and one for raw diets inclusive of other things besides meat, bone, and organs. 
I'd also love to see a homecooking section.

Fact of the matter is: the raw section IS dominated by PMR feeders... simply because there are more of them here. Perhaps designated sections would help attract more diversity?


I'm going to go back to work now, and if I come back, and we're still dancing in angry circles, I'll simply close the thread. :wink: Lets put our big kid panties on, and get along, shall we?:smile:


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## DaneMama

Yes, yes I did say clusterfrack...I did that for your benefit I hope you know. Now that I think of it, we should have a clusterfrack forum for all the randoms that go on here LOL :tongue:

Yeah, I thought about closing this thread LONG ago but since things stayed relatively positive I didn't. But yes, I'm done arguing.

In fact I AM going for a walk now...and I mean it :wink:


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## CorgiPaws

danemama08 said:


> Yes, yes I did say clusterfrack...I did that for your benefit I hope you know.


And it is greatly appreciated. :tongue:



danemama08 said:


> Now that I think of it, we should have a clusterfrack forum for all the randoms that go on here LOL :tongue:


I think we call it "General Talk"


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## DaneMama

CorgiPaws said:


> I think we call it "General Talk"


Oooooo we should rename it!!!! :tongue:


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## deb9017

danemama08 said:


> Oooooo we should rename it!!!! :tongue:


I agree. I like clusterfrack forum much better!


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## jdatwood

Sorry kibble didn't work out for you Linsey but I have to say I'm VEEEEEERRRRY happy you're back on PMR


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## CorgiPaws

jdatwood said:


> Sorry kibble didn't work out for you Linsey but I have to say I'm VEEEEEERRRRY happy you're back on PMR











I don't think Zailey is sorry it didn't work out. lol.:wink::biggrin::tongue:


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## xxshaelxx

*cough*

Just wanna say one thing....

If I were to post something like:

"I started a PMR diet six months ago, and my dogs have been doing fine, but in the last two months they've started to get flakey skin. I'd like to figure out what is wrong,"

Then went on to say something like:

"I feed anything without bone, because I feel bone will hurt my dogs, and I don't feed any organ meats because they stink,"

Nat would be the first person to jump on me going:

"OMG! YOU NEED BONES AND ORGANS IN YOUR PMR DIET, DIDN'T YOU KNOW?!"

XDDDD

Linsey - Glad you could get back on that raw diet. Doesn't sound like the kibble was cutting it for ya. XP


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## John Rambo

Awsome post here...Good genetics and breeding affects a dog's overall condition and lifespan a tremendous amount. Heck, my next door neighbor fed his doberman Ol Roy and his dobe had a beautiful coat, no health issues, excellent weight and lived to be 14! I probably will eventually morph into a high quality kibble/raw feeder. Currently my boys LOVE any bones, chicken, meat, table scraps that help give their coats a luxurious shine.


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## John Rambo

BrownieM said:


> Agreed!
> 
> *Ubershann*, thanks for sharing. I like hearing the different ways other people feed raw.
> 
> I feed my dogs 50% premade raw and 50% high quality kibble. I have to admit that I mostly lurk and only occasionally post on this forum because I also feel intimidated and threatened by the very clear "popular" opinion that PMR is the only acceptable way to feed. I also sense a very passive aggressive tone by many people on this thread and honestly, it is not a comfortable place for me to be.
> 
> I care for my dogs very much and feed them high quality kibbles like Acana and Instinct as well as Instinct raw medallions. I feel that I am taking excellent care of my dogs even though I do not feed PMR. Heck, how many breeders and pet owners and probably veterinarians feed their dogs low quality foods like iams, pedigree, etc? It is disheartening to come onto a forum where there is clearly no point in discussing food unless I agree to change my dogs to PMR.


 When I first joined this forum..I stated that I sensed a clear dominance of passive aggressive tone by the PMR folks, and I got some feedback! I continue to stand up for what I believe in, and try to learn more about RAW feeding in general. But I will always stay true to myself and believe what I do for my dogs is best in MY situations...and I definitely don't love my boys any less. BTW..Your brown Poodle is cute..Maybe we should start a POODLE thread..I just got a black standard pup and love to talk anything poodle/schnauzer related!


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## John Rambo

Just to show that this thread is great I will close by saying my Kibble/table scrap feed dog can KICK the crap out of any RAW dog's butt! HA:smile: In all seriousness, yes I love learning on this forum.


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## spookychick13

John Rambo said:


> Just to show that this thread is great I will close by saying my Kibble/table scrap feed dog can KICK the crap out of any RAW dog's butt! HA:smile: In all seriousness, yes I love learning on this forum.


I bet my poodle could take your poodle! 
Congrats on the new standard.

I've always had a soft spot for schnauzers too, my parents have always had them.
FEISTY.


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