# complete and balanced?



## m&mluvpugs

RFD, i took your quote from the kibble section:

"Complete and balanced" is an almost meaningless term also. 

Funny you should mention this, because when we told our vet we were going to be feeding raw, she expressed concern about not giving our dogs a 'complete and balanced' diet, nor all the nutrients they require, and that we wouldn't notice any ill effects in the short term, but more so long term. 

We were given a pamphlet for the following supplement, which looks to be primarily for home cooked meals, but can work with raw diets also.

HILARY'S BLEND (formerly THE BALANCER) supplement for home-made meals

i have feeling i know what the general reaction will be  but just wanted to throw it out there.

any comments are much appreciated.


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## bdb5853

hmmmm..... well, not only do you have to buy the supplement for $39.95 but you have to buy her recipe book too. Another $24.95. She says you can't just add her supplement to other recipes or a raw diet.

She also doesn't recommend or support raw feeding. I'd take a pass. 

Here's a quote from her FAQ .....

Can I use HILARY'S BLEND (formerly THE BALANCER) supplement with my own home-made recipes?

No. HILARY'S BLEND supplement is specifically designed, using food formulation software, to balance the home-made recipes featured in the book Complete & Balanced: 101 Healthy Home-made Meals for Dogs by Hilary Watson. This supplement should only be fed in conjunction with the recipes in this book. It will not balance other recipes.


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## RawFedDogs

m&mluvpugs said:


> any comments are much appreciated.


Quite a polished sales and promotional job, I'd say. It's amazing how people can be bamboozled into thinking they can feed their family a balanced diet but can't feed their dogs the same thing. Of course if you just add Hilary's Blend to your dog's diet, he will be perfectly healthy. HAHA Snake Oil salesmen of the early 1900's are still around, aren't they? :smile:


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## whiteleo

People are so brainwashed by the dog food companies and what goes into the bag they can't quite believe that a dog can get a Complete and Balanced diet with just Meat, Bones and Organs. 

Its so simple and easy that there in lies the problem in peoples eyes, they think its too easy that it can't possibly be good for your dog. We always want to over complicate things, and the prey model diet is way easy as long as you try to give as much variety as possible.


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## dobesgalore

It sounds like a money gig to me.


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## m&mluvpugs

Thanks to all, you have confirmed my initial thoughts of it being yet another cash grab, and completely unnecessary. 
:smile:


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## rannmiller

Wow there are so many things this woman says that are just ridiculous! 



> I am frequently asked "where do you stand on feeding raw?" The short answer is that I personally recommend feeding raw fruits and vegetables, but I recommend cooking meats.


But anyone with half a brain knows that dogs can't get any nutrients out of raw fruits and veggies unless they are processed (cooked or pureed) in some way first. 

Or this one cracks me up too: 



> The most common allergens are proteins contained in meat, fish, dairy or cereal ingredients.


hahahahahaha! I think we all know how ridiculous it is to say that the _most_ common allergens are from animal-based proteins. Yeesh! Do people actually fall for this stuff?


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## CorgiPaws

rannmiller said:


> hahahahahaha! I think we all know how ridiculous it is to say that the _most_ common allergens are from animal-based proteins. Yeesh! Do people actually fall for this stuff?


They are the same people buying Science Diet and Iams...
I bet this woman is a hit with most vets! :biggrin:


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## BEETHOVEN

RawFedDogs said:


> Quite a polished sales and promotional job, I'd say. It's amazing how people can be bamboozled into thinking they can feed their family a balanced diet but can't feed their dogs the same thing. Of course if you just add Hilary's Blend to your dog's diet, he will be perfectly healthy. HAHA Snake Oil salesmen of the early 1900's are still around, aren't they? :smile:


I feed raw and wish all my dogs are keen on this diet. Being in food science and nutrituion myself, I would have to ask: If her recipes are perfectly nutritional and balanced, why would there be any need to balance them out??? I would pass. I know that if we feed complete raw, no need to supplement "unbalanced" meals.


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## magicre

in the hype, she does say that 35 of her recipes can be served all-raw....

as a raw feeder, i tried supplements as i could feel RFD laughing at me 

they got the runs because they were getting what they needed from the bone, muscle, and organs...

it's not so difficult to overdose a dog with fat soluble vitamins....which is why raw is so much easier....than any other kind of feeding.

with home cooked, on the other hand, i believe that is a whole different ballgame....
Having said that..it's not as complicated as some would have anyone believe....

since you're raw feeding and i hope it's going well....the only supp my dogs now get is salmon oil....but i'm very careful to make sure there is no soy..america soy sucks....and dogs don't need it, either....soy bad, blech....

while i might balance every day and others balance over time and others use baggies and others do whatever they do....most of us feed according to time constraints, level of OCD or anal-retentive levels LOL...and economical restraints...

i believe we all try to feed as much variety as we can....

this lady on the other hand, reminds me of jenny craig.

and chicory root....great ingredient. it's a bowel stimulant/irritant...yum...cause dogs need to have their bowels irritated....no wonder so many dogs end up with so called IBD.

chicory: the dried root of the chicory plant: used as a coffee substitute


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## 3RingCircus

*Ingredients List???*

Did any of you find where the site gives the complete ingredients list?

I can find what it doesn't have but what _*does*_ it have in it?

If you read deeper into her website you'll find Hiliary Watson was the Technical Services Manager for WALTHAM Veterinary Diets or Royal Canin. She provided nutritional training and technical support to the Canadian and American WALTHAM Veterinary Sales teams. No  to me.

"graduate level courses in comparative animal nutrition, *protein and lipid metabolism*"

Yet she's making a living off encouraging people to feed their dogs carbohydrates.


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## magicre

3RingCircus said:


> Did any of you find where the site gives the complete ingredients list?
> 
> I can find what it doesn't have but what _*does*_ it have in it?
> 
> If you read deeper into her website you'll find Hiliary Watson was the Technical Services Manager for WALTHAM Veterinary Diets or Royal Canin. She provided nutritional training and technical support to the Canadian and American WALTHAM Veterinary Sales teams. No  to me.
> 
> "graduate level courses in comparative animal nutrition, *protein and lipid metabolism*"
> 
> Yet she's making a living off encouraging people to feed their dogs carbohydrates.


it has chicory root in it....if i fed this to my dog, would i have to offer him a smoke to go along with his coffee substitute?

i know i need MY coffee in the morning...wasn't aware that dogs needed it


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## jdatwood

magicre said:


> i know i *need *MY coffee in the morning...wasn't aware that dogs needed it


Now now Re... you *want* that coffee in the morning... :wink:


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## magicre

3RingCircus said:


> Did any of you find where the site gives the complete ingredients list?
> 
> I can find what it doesn't have but what _*does*_ it have in it?
> 
> If you read deeper into her website you'll find Hiliary Watson was the Technical Services Manager for WALTHAM Veterinary Diets or Royal Canin. She provided nutritional training and technical support to the Canadian and American WALTHAM Veterinary Sales teams. No  to me.
> 
> "graduate level courses in comparative animal nutrition, *protein and lipid metabolism*"
> 
> Yet she's making a living off encouraging people to feed their dogs carbohydrates.


that's hilary's blend ingredient list...formerly the balancer:

Chicory root extract, dicalcium phosphate, calcium carbonate, potassium chloride, choline bitartrate, zinc sulfate, iron sulfate, vitamin E succinate, sodium chloride, magnesium oxide, manganese citrate, calcium D-pantothenate, copper sulfate, niacin (vitamin B3), riboflavin (vitamin B2), vitamin B12, potassium iodide, vitamin D3, pyridoxine hydrochloride (vitamin B6), thiamine mononitrate (vitamin B1), folic acid.

i think you have to buy the book for the recipes...
HILARY'S BLEND - Frequently Asked Questions


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## rawfed

*I have the book and supplement*

The supplement is still sealed. I am thinking of returning it.
I was finding a way to feed my dog a home-cooked meal, even though I like raw feeding. 

I found out, after the fact, that this Hilary person helped formulate Royal Canin diets... had I known this, I would never have bought the supplement. The way it was presented to me was that it was a supplement I could use with raw feeding to ensure my dogs are not missing nutrients.... well, supposedly, as Hilary notes in her book, you can only use it with her diets or the minerals and vitmains will be all out of whack. ?? Hmmm...

Anyway, she is against raw feeding saying that it has high bacteria that is dangerous for your dog, but she still says some of the recipes can be used with raw meat. 

I am in a dilema. When I feed my one dog raw, he gets very sluggish and doesn't seem well. Then when I switch back to kibble (Orijen) or dehydrated raw, he gets his energy back and looks so healthy after eating it for a while. So I don't know what the deal is with raw. That is why I am worried about raw alone without supplementing, however, since raw has bones and calcium, I am at a loss as to what supplement to give. What supplement is there that doesn't contain calcium? So that is why I thought Hilary's book and supplement would be good... but finding out she worked for Hills!! And yes, she told me herself in email that she works for Hills... and finding out that she helped formulate diets for Royal Canin totally scared me off her product. I'm afraid to even try it. 

I like the concept of raw though, but it just isn't enough for _my_ dog. (in my experience). I was feeding raw meats, organs, and bone at a 80%, 10% and 10% ratio. Yet it was not enough for my dog.


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## DaneMama

How long were you feeding this one dog raw, that seemed to not do well? What were you feeding him? How old is he and does he have any serious medical issues?


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## magicre

how much does your dog weigh and how much were you feeding him?


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## bdb5853

I'd be interested in hearing more about your dog that "didn't do well on raw".

Could you post a sample menu for a week or so of what exactly you were feeding?


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## kellybelly

Just a little info on chicory root.... 

Root chicory contains volatile oils similar to those found in plants in the related genus Tanacetum which includes Tansy, and is similarly effective at eliminating intestinal worms. All parts of the plant contain these volatile oils, with the majority of the toxic components concentrated in the plant's root.

Chicory is well known for its toxicity to internal parasites. Studies indicate that ingestion of chicory by farm animals results in reduction of worm burdens, which has prompted its widespread use as a forage supplement. Only a few major companies are active in research, development, and production of chicory varieties and selections, most in New Zealand.

Chicory (especially the flower) was used as a treatment in Germany, and is recorded in many books as an ancient German treatment for everyday ailments. It is variously used as a tonic and as a treatment for gallstones, gastro-enteritis, sinus problems and cuts and bruises. (Howard M. 1987). Inulin, the dietary fiber found in Chicory, finds application in diabetes and constipation.

Chicory has demonstrated antihepatotoxic potential in animal studies.

I have fed my dogs RAW for almost a year, and one of them now has kidney problems. If you compare the actual protein and fat content of RAW to other foods (using the correct mathematical equation to compare dry and wet food) you will see that it is WAY too high in protein and fat for house dogs. Have you noticed your dogs poop is chalky? This is because they are dehydrated and lacking what they need. We cook our food because we know that it kills bacteria and parasites. It is your choice to buy into the propaganda that our house dogs should live like dogs in the wild. If you do, then why do you let your dog sleep inside? Why do you bath your dog and clip their nails? They should be let free to roam all day and be exercising for at least 6 hours of the day. Think about it..... think about how RAW food makers totally contradict themselves. Warm food is easier to digest than cold, raw foods. For optimal healthy food your pet, feeding them warm, healthy human foods that you would eat (of course eliminating foods that are dangerous to dogs) is obviously best. There is no sales gimmick there. The RAW food companies want your money just as much as the kibble companies and anyone promoting dog food/treats does. Don't be so ignorant and blind to think that the RAW food makers care about your dogs.... it all comes down to monetary gain. 
Just read their sales techniques and compare them to any other dog food company..... see a similarity? Any extreme, strange diet is not good for any living creature. How could anyone argue or dispute cooking/steaming your dogs food and feeding them what you would feed yourself or a child???? Do you not trust yourself feeding a child??!! I'm pretty sure you could keep a human alive and super healthy by feeding them whole, balanced foods, while keeping foods they can't eat away. (eg. onions, avocado, chocolate, grapes, raisins....etc for dogs) They can only say "it is not balanced" hahaah! HOW ARE WE ALL ALIVE THEN?? All this crap from all dog food companies makes me LAUGH OUT LOUD IN ANGER. I know it's hard because we all love our pets and want the best for them, however what do you really think is best? Real food, the way we eat, because dogs live the way we live! Yes they do have slightly different digestion, however the main differences are that their digestion is faster, and their stomach acid is stronger. It's quite hilarious what we all have bought into. DOG FOOD IS A SCAM. RAW or KIBBLE. They all just want your money


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## CorgiPaws

kellybelly said:


> I have fed my dogs RAW for almost a year, and one of them now has kidney problems.


What kind of raw diet were you feeding? A prey model raw diet? Primal? BARF? Nature's Variety? Pre made "raw" foods aren't exactly what most of us here are referring to when we talk about a raw diet. We are referring more to a species-appropriate raw diet consisting of meat, bones, and organs. 



kellybelly said:


> If you compare the actual protein and fat content of RAW to other foods (using the correct mathematical equation to compare dry and wet food) you will see that it is WAY too high in protein and fat for house dogs.


Wrong. 
The fat content varies depending on what cuts of meat you're feeding, so there is NO way you compared that, as each person's raw diet may be a little different. 
The protein content of a prey model raw diet is actually 18-26% depending on what you're feeding. The "high protein" misconception is one of complete ignorance. 



kellybelly said:


> Have you noticed your dogs poop is chalky? This is because they are dehydrated and lacking what they need.


LOL. Silly girl. 
When stools are chalky it means that the bone content is too high, and after the body takes what it needs, it passes the rest. A simple solution is to better balance the food you're feeding, by including more organs and muscle meat to balance out the bone content. It is NOT a sign of dehydration. 
A prey model raw diet, or ANY raw diet aside from freeze dried or dehydrated has more moisture than any other kind of diet. Your logic here is amusing. 



kellybelly said:


> We cook our food because we know that it kills bacteria and parasites. It is your choice to buy into the propaganda that our house dogs should live like dogs in the wild. If you do, then why do you let your dog sleep inside? Why do you bath your dog and clip their nails? They should be let free to roam all day and be exercising for at least 6 hours of the day.


We are omnivores. 
Dogs are carnivores. 
We are not equipped to handle heavy bacteria loads. 
Dogs are. 
Internally, dog are wolves. Their digestive system nor nutritional needs have changed one bit through domestication. They are, however, pack animals, and since we have domesticated these creatures to bond with humans and live as members of the family, that is where they belong. Through domestication, we have greatly reduced their ABILITY to survive the wild and fend for themselves. It does not mean they are not still carnivores. Look at their teeth. 



kellybelly said:


> Think about it..... think about how RAW food makers totally contradict themselves. Warm food is easier to digest than cold, raw foods. For optimal healthy food your pet, feeding them warm, healthy human foods that you would eat (of course eliminating foods that are dangerous to dogs) is obviously best.


No pet food company puts pets before the pocket book. 
Pre made raw diets are a joke, and overpriced. BUT. most of us here don't feed that. We feed prey model raw, for which there is no "company" to sell it. 
Warm and cold foods don't digest differently. 
raw and cooked foods do. 
If I were feeding a HUMAN, I'd feed them healthy human foods. If I am feeding a DOG, I'd feed them a healthy species-appropriate food. 
DOGS ARE NOT HUMANS.
*Never have been, and never will be. Period. *



kellybelly said:


> Any extreme, strange diet is not good for any living creature.


By extreme and strange, I think "unnatural".
Such that dogs can not cook for themselves. 
Nor do they naturally eat grain.
Therefore, I'd consider any cooked diet for dogs "strange and extreme." Feeding a dog what they are designed to digest, nose to tail (meat, bones, and organs) is the most natural thing we can do for our dogs and cats. 



kellybelly said:


> How could anyone argue or dispute cooking/steaming your dogs food and feeding them what you would feed yourself or a child????


Again,* Dogs are not humans. They never have been and never will be.*
Cooking kills nutrients in foods. Yes, it also kills bacteria, which humans are not designed to handle like wild animals are, and so we make that trade off. Dogs are perfectly capable of taking on raw meats, and digesting them just fine. By cooking your dog's food, you're not only killing nutrients, but making them harder for your dog's body to digest. 



kellybelly said:


> I'm pretty sure you could keep a human alive and super healthy by feeding them whole, balanced foods, while keeping foods they can't eat away. (eg. onions, avocado, chocolate, grapes, raisins....etc for dogs)


Feeding a HUMAN child, and feeding a DOG are two different worlds. 
Apples to oranges. 
I suppose you'd like to feed the same thing to a frog, a goldfish, and a butterfly, too... since a human child would thrive on it, after all. 



kellybelly said:


> All this crap from all dog food companies makes me LAUGH OUT LOUD IN ANGER.


Ditto on that. 
However, you're kind of having the same effect.......




kellybelly said:


> Real food, the way we eat, because dogs live the way we live!


My dogs and I like to sleep in my bed. We also like to go for walks. We even like to play games together. 
This says NOTHING of our nutritional and dietary needs being the same. 
Just because they can LIVE like we do through domestication, does NOT make their nutritional needs the same as ours. 
Which in case you haven't caught on yet: *DOGS are not HUMANS. Never have been, and never will be. *



kellybelly said:


> Yes they do have slightly different digestion, however the main differences are that their digestion is faster, and their stomach acid is stronger.


Did it ever occur to you that the differences in their systems are what makes them capable of digesting raw foods? Just a thought. Because, you know, dog aren't humans and all...



kellybelly said:


> DOG FOOD IS A SCAM. RAW or KIBBLE. They all just want your money


Now this is something we can agree on.
However, COOKING for your dogs is silly, too. Better than commercial food, sure... but the logic is still greatly lacking in my book.


OH! And :welcome: to DFC, kellybelly. I'm glad you came to join us, you have a lot to learn, and I'm sure this is the place for it.


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## luvMyBRT

Thank you Linsey!!! I was feeling a bit overwhelmed after reading that! LOL. :tongue:


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## CorgiPaws

luvMyBRT said:


> Thank you Linsey!!! I was feeling a bit overwhelmed after reading that! LOL. :tongue:


When there's THAT much misinformation, you have to tackle it one sentence at a time. LOL:twitch::twitch:


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## Pimzilla

Kellybelly, I don't think many people here are buying raw food from a "raw food maker". I don't know if you are serious or if you only want to provoke with your post. 
However, I'm pretty sure there are several unserious "raw food makers" out there that made their food "balanced" with the addition of vitamins and other supplements. Is this what you have been feeding your dogs?
If you feed an inactive dog or human too much fat it's obviously not going to end well for either, but that is your responsibility to make sure to feed your dog the amount needed. If your dogs poop are way too chalky I suggest you feed less bone? It's definitely not because they are constantly dehydrated, unless if you restrict your dog from drinking or your dog already had a health condition of some kind.
I'm sad to hear that your dog has kidney problems, but I seriously doubt it's because of raw feeding, unless you have been feeding some heavily supplemented already made crap that made your dogs body work too hard? 

Just because many people eat an unbalanced diet doesn't mean they are going to die immediately, it might cut a few years off their potential maximum age just as an insufficient diet for dogs would do. It might just be more obvious with a dog who has a shorter lifespan. Personally I like to consider the quality of life for both humans and dogs, it's a lot harder to feed myself a perfect diet than my dog, just because I got the choice and my dog has not :wink:
I know dogs and humans physiology are different in more ways than the concentration of the stomach acid. Humans don't have the same enzymes to digest meat as dogs do and that would be a very good reason for us to not eat meat. If I didn't like meat as much as I do I wouldn't eat it for this reason alone.
You just said it yourself that dogs have a stronger stomach acid than us, so why would we be terrified of bacteria? 

May I ask what difference increased exercise would have done to your dogs kidneys?


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## magicre

i always thought a raw food maker was a farmer.


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## kellybelly

Hello again all!!

I should have been more clear on what I was ranting about!! 

When I was comparing a human child to a dog, I clearly am not ignorant and know they are different and a multitude of ways. What I was saying is that dog food companies lead us to believe we cannot feed our dogs in an appropriate way and keep them healthy.... and I was using a comparison in saying that is we can keep another human who depends on us for food healthy and happy, then we can most certainly keep a dog healthy and happy  

My response on the RAW food... I was feeding them "urban carnivore" dog food, beef and chicken meal, which is grain free, contains ground up bones and organs, also some fruit and veggie (minimal). The protein content of the beef is 38% and the fat content of the beef is 45%. Those are accurate findings, as I've contacted the manufacturer and it is so. The chicken meal is from "legacy pet foods" in Edmonton, AB, and the chicken meal breaks down as this- 35% protein, and 41% fat. 

Dogs are *not* true carnivores. Dogs in the wild do eat mostly meat, however they also eat whatever they can find! FYI... dogs do eat grains in the wild.....they eat the stomach content of animals that eta grains, therefore they actually DO eat grain when in a wild setting. Not much, but they do.

Warm food vs cold food.... I am coming from a holistic standpoint on that as I have my degree in Holistic Health. Warm foods (in many opinions) are easier for the stomach to digest, however this is solely based upon belief, and to each hi/her own. There are some foods that actually increase in nutritional content when cooked/steamed. 

After becoming very educated about dog food, and RAW, I personally believe my dogs do better on cooked, balanced recipes that I make them. This Hilary's blend has helped me out a lot with my dogs dietary needs and I do praise her for that.
If you're dog does better on raw food, then by all means, that is great and should be continued. 

As for the poop issue.... after taking many nutrition courses, and being educated in the health care field, chalky, very dry poop is simply not healthy for any living thing that poops. It is on the other side of the poop spectrum, and diarrhea would be on the opposing side of this spectrum. You may disagree and say "you sure have a lot to learn" however, there is absolutely nothing that will make me think that dry, chalky crumbly poop coming out of my poor puppies bum is healthy or okay. That IS a sign a dehydration, not too much bone. There is actually very little bone in the meat I was feeding her, and I even tried feeding her without any bone and it was still happening. Thank you for your suggestion though. I know there is a lot of moisture in raw food, however it just is not working for my pup. 

I love how everyone cares so much about their furry loved ones, and I support everyone in the best for their animal. Just as human require different needs, I believe so do animals, therefore I will leave it at that.... holistic approach to feeding your pet.

Thank you!! Have a wonderful day


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## RachelsaurusRexU

I can't understand for the life of me why you would assume that a diet of raw meat, which is about 75-80% water, would dehydrate a dog.



> Dogs are not true carnivores. Dogs in the wild do eat mostly meat, however they also eat whatever they can find! FYI... dogs do eat grains in the wild.....they eat the stomach content of animals that eta grains, therefore they actually DO eat grain when in a wild setting. Not much, but they do.


This is not completely true, not even close.


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## kellybelly

Hi Pimzilla!

The food I was feeding her was definitely not crap. It is very balanced, however I guess it just does not work for her body. When I was talking about exercise what I was referring to is that wild dogs are constantly on the run and active for most of the day (7-8 hrs). I'm pretty confident in assuming none of your dogs on here are doing 7 hour Cesar Millan runs daily, but hey if they are WOW!!!! She gets on average at least 1-2 hours of walking a day, plus playing and wrestling. If a dog eats a very high protein high fat diet, their activity level should match that to be able to burn off excess calories (fat) and use that excess protein for energy. With an excess in protein the body actually turns it to fat. 

There is not a lot of misinformation of what I'm saying, just a lot of misunderstanding. A lot of info everyone has here is based on the sale of raw food for your dogs. All I'm trying to do is show you that you may be misinformed by RAW food advocates just as much as kibble supporters. 

To truly have an educated view, you must look at the info provided with an unbiased mind, and see when you're being sold. There are a lot of "raw food makers" or I like to call them "businesses". 

Also, if a dogs stomach acid is stronger than ours, that does not include their mouths or the feces when it leaves the body. There have been many studies showing that raw food has high amounts of bacteria (salmonella) and so does their feces.... same strain. These studies have also shown the dogs getting sick or dying because of the contamination. 

Yes, they may eat this way in the wild, but that is because they have to! I would drink my own pee if I was stuck in a wild desert dying of dehydration, but I prefer my filtered water at home thank you! I think educational advances have helped us discover that cooking our meat (when eating on a daily basis) cuts down risks. 

I don't know where everyone is getting their raw food from, but I just don't have to stomach to dissemble a carcass and grid up bones!! If you can then good on you, you are much more tough mentally then me! I was purchasing my raw dog food from a dog food store.


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## kellybelly

RachelsaurusRexU:

May I ask why this is not even close to true? Have you ever heard of tripe? It was being sold to me a a raw supplement. It is the inside lining of the animals stomach, and they ate grains.


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## CorgiPaws

kellybelly said:


> When I was comparing a human child to a dog, I clearly am not ignorant and know they are different and a multitude of ways.


No, you did in fact say that you thought dogs would do best on a diet similar to a child's, meaning cooked veggies, grains, and fruits. This is wrong, however. 



kellybelly said:


> What I was saying is that dog food companies lead us to believe we cannot feed our dogs in an appropriate way and keep them healthy.... and I was using a comparison in saying that is we can keep another human who depends on us for food healthy and happy, then we can most certainly keep a dog healthy and happy


Something we agree on. :smile:



kellybelly said:


> My response on the RAW food... I was feeding them "urban carnivore" dog food, beef and chicken meal, which is grain free, contains ground up bones and organs, also some fruit and veggie (minimal). The protein content of the beef is 38% and the fat content of the beef is 45%. Those are accurate findings, as I've contacted the manufacturer and it is so. The chicken meal is from "legacy pet foods" in Edmonton, AB, and the chicken meal breaks down as this- 35% protein, and 41% fat.


Ok, so you were feeding a raw kibble. Unless you're thinking RAW stands for something else, as you use it in caps, so I can't be sure. 
The kind of raw diet generally fed here is night and day to a commercial raw diet. It is far more species appropriate and far less processed. That's probably why you had a poor experience. Furthermore, I have seen very few dogs do well on those diets, and I think they give species-appropriate raw diets a bad image when in fact it's all the unnecessary crap they put into it. 



kellybelly said:


> The protein content of the beef is 38% and the fat content of the beef is 45%. Those are accurate findings, as I've contacted the manufacturer and it is so. The chicken meal is from "legacy pet foods" in Edmonton, AB, and the chicken meal breaks down as this- 35% protein, and 41% fat.


That may be the "accurate findings" as far as this commercial diet is concerned, but a prey model raw diet is FAR different, and MUCH lower protein and fat than that. I would agree that that is rather high. Just one of many reasons I stay clear of commercial foods. By the sounds of it, what you fed is pretty crappy even in comparison to other pre made raw. 



kellybelly said:


> Dogs are *not* true carnivores. Dogs in the wild do eat mostly meat, however they also eat whatever they can find! FYI... dogs do eat grains in the wild.....they eat the stomach content of animals that eta grains, therefore they actually DO eat grain when in a wild setting. Not much, but they do.


Dogs *ARE* nutritionally carnivores. They do in fact eat other things in times of famine, or because they simply taste and smell good, however they are designed nose to tail to eat and digest meat, bones, and organs. Show me a dog with flat molars. Show me a dog who eats grass, and does not pass it the way it went in. You can't, because it doesn't happen. I eat cake because it tastes good, it does not make it a necessary thing in my diet. I might have potato chips for a snack because they're all I have in my cupboard, but it doesn't make it any more healthy. 
As for the stomach content debate, many many wild kills are found with the intestines and stomach of their prey in a neat little pile beside the carcass. I won't argue tripe here, because it's been overdone... but as far as dogs eating the stomach itself, and most of the content.... maybe if it _tastes good. _



kellybelly said:


> Warm food vs cold food.... I am coming from a holistic standpoint on that as I have my degree in Holistic Health. Warm foods (in many opinions) are easier for the stomach to digest, however this is solely based upon belief, and to each hi/her own. There are some foods that actually increase in nutritional content when cooked/steamed.


I'm glad we can agree that this is a matter of he said she said. And were these "findings" on people, dogs, or smurfs? 
Some things ARE made more easily digestible by cooking, that is a fact I won't argue. However, because a dog does not have the NATURAL ability to do so himself, it is enough to tell me that cooked foods are not a NATURAL component of a dog's diet. 



kellybelly said:


> After becoming very educated about dog food, and RAW, I personally believe my dogs do better on cooked, balanced recipes that I make them. This Hilary's blend has helped me out a lot with my dogs dietary needs and I do praise her for that.
> If you're dog does better on raw food, then by all means, that is great and should be continued.


That's great, I'm very glad that your dogs are doing well. I can't help but wonder how well they'd do on prey model raw. :biggrin: You DO know the difference between a species-appropriate prey model raw diet, and the pre made commercial junk you were feeding.... right?
And out of curiosity, where did you become "very educated on raw"?



kellybelly said:


> As for the poop issue.... after taking many nutrition courses, and being educated in the health care field, chalky, very dry poop is simply not healthy for any living thing that poops. It is on the other side of the poop spectrum, and diarrhea would be on the opposing side of this spectrum. You may disagree and say "you sure have a lot to learn" however, there is absolutely nothing that will make me think that dry, chalky crumbly poop coming out of my poor puppies bum is healthy or okay. That IS a sign a dehydration, not too much bone. There is actually very little bone in the meat I was feeding her, and I even tried feeding her without any bone and it was still happening. Thank you for your suggestion though. I know there is a lot of moisture in raw food, however it just is not working for my pup.


Nowhere did I say that it was healthy or should ever be an ongoing thing. I said it is an indicator of too much bone content in the diet, because that is true. "too much" bone means something different for every single dog. There is no universal percentage or number, though 10% is generally a good starting point. What I'm saying is *if *those kind of stools do occur, all it means is to feed less bone content, and more muscle meat and/or organ. It's that simple. 
It may be a sign of dehydration, sure. That would be pretty dang extreme dehydration, I imagine. You even recognize that there is PLENTY of moisture in raw food, and yet insist it dehydrates dogs? You make no sense. 
Many people get hung up on silly things like stools, and amounts, and seem to forget things like logic and common sense. It seems that's what's happened here. I do hope you'll stay and learn, I think you'll find you've been misinformed on many fronts.


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## RachelsaurusRexU

kellybelly said:


> RachelsaurusRexU:
> 
> May I ask why this is not even close to true? Have you ever heard of tripe? It was being sold to me a a raw supplement. It is the inside lining of the animals stomach, and they ate grains.


I know what tripe is, I've also fed it. It is comprised of tissue, not grain. 

"Getting enough to eat is a full-time job for a wolf. When wolves catch and kill a large mammal, they will gorge and then rest while the food is being rapidly digested. They will generally consume all but the hide, some of the large bones and skull and the rumen (stomach contents of ungulates) of their prey."
-http://wolfpreservation.wordpress.com/

"Do wolves, in fact, eat the stomach contents of prey? Not according to David Mech (1), who has studied wolves in various parts of the world for more than 30 years. Mech observed wolves attack large herbivores, such as moose and elk. When wolves open the abdominal cavity and begin to eat digestive organs, they shake out the contents of stomachs before eating the organs. Thus, according to Mech, wolves eat a small amount of digested grasses that cling to the rough lining of stomachs, but they shake out large volumes of undigested grasses from herbivores' stomachs."

Also, most wild herbivores that would become wolf dinner dont eat grain. They eat grasses and other vegetation.


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## Tobi

whiteleo said:


> People are so brainwashed by the dog food companies and what goes into the bag they can't quite believe that a dog can get a Complete and Balanced diet with just Meat, Bones and Organs.
> 
> Its so simple and easy that there in lies the problem in peoples eyes, they think its too easy that it can't possibly be good for your dog. We always want to over complicate things, and the prey model diet is way easy as long as you try to give as much variety as possible.


I find it hilarious though... the BIGGEST selling points on their commercials isn't the meat, its the damn whole grain corn, oats, and vegetables... :lol: and sadly it was on an innova commercial that i saw this as well.


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## CorgiPaws

kellybelly said:


> I'm pretty confident in assuming none of your dogs on here are doing 7 hour Cesar Millan runs daily, but hey if they are WOW!!!!


My dogs don't get anything Cesar Millan period. The man is a fraud. 
That being said, mine get about 6-10 hours of mental stimulation, running, and wrestling 5 days a week. 



kellybelly said:


> There is not a lot of misinformation of what I'm saying, just a lot of misunderstanding. A lot of info everyone has here is based on the sale of raw food for your dogs. All I'm trying to do is show you that you may be misinformed by RAW food advocates just as much as kibble supporters.


You're wrong. Again. 
MOST of the info here is NOT based on the sale of raw food. In fact, there MIGHT be one or two, MAYBE three people who even USE commercial raw foods on this entire forum whom actively post. I'd be pretty confident in saying at LEAST 98% of raw feeders here are NOT influenced by commercial raw foods nor propaganda of the sort. 
I suggest you actually read the forum before making ignorant blanket statements. 



kellybelly said:


> To truly have an educated view, you must look at the info provided with an unbiased mind, and see when you're being sold. There are a lot of "raw food makers" or I like to call them "businesses".


It's simple. Don't take advice from someone who stands to gain from your decision. 
We get that, we're not stupid. 



kellybelly said:


> Also, if a dogs stomach acid is stronger than ours, that does not include their mouths or the feces when it leaves the body. There have been many studies showing that raw food has high amounts of bacteria (salmonella) and so does their feces.... same strain. These studies have also shown the dogs getting sick or dying because of the contamination.


Dogs get sick and die on kibble every single day.
You probably shouldn't be eating your dog's feces no matter what they're fed. I don't understand this argument. Poop is poop. Unless you're consuming it, and maintaining a clean environment, it shouldn't pose any danger. 
Unless, of course you eat it. 



kellybelly said:


> Yes, they may eat this way in the wild, but that is because they have to! I would drink my own pee if I was stuck in a wild desert dying of dehydration, but I prefer my filtered water at home thank you! I think educational advances have helped us discover that cooking our meat (when eating on a daily basis) cuts down risks.


That's my point. Dogs eat plant matter in times of famine. I'd rather feed my dog an ideal diet. Not one they might eat if they HAD to. 



kellybelly said:


> I don't know where everyone is getting their raw food from, but I just don't have to stomach to dissemble a carcass and grid up bones!! If you can then good on you, you are much more tough mentally then me! I was purchasing my raw dog food from a dog food store.


You probably should have read and learned before making a blanket statement about our members here, then. 
We have a lot of dedication to our animals. We DO in fact cut up raw meat, but most of us don't bother with the unnecessary grinding of bones. Why? Because we understand that we have brought CANINES into our home, and owe it to them to service their nutritional needs.


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## kellybelly

Hello puppypaws,

Whoa!! You all are really in a quarrel with me! You even copy things I've said like a lawyer might on Law and Order. Not very welcoming! Puppypaws, you are very well informed because you've done a lot of googling and research into prey specific feeding raw, barf, kibble, etc, however that doesn't mean someone else is not. Please be advised that what I was feeding was prey specific. Sorry for any confusion. Up here in good ol' Canada we call raw and "prey specific" the same thing eh. 


If it works for you, great. It doesn't work for every doggie. I'm not going to explain everything I said because your right, some of it doesn't make sense. That is why I came here fore help to see if anyone else had an issue with this food. I did go on a rant...... I'm upset my puppy is sick and I'm worried it was something I was feeding her.... the high protein high fat diet  I really didn't mean to upset anyone, just seeing what some responses might be.
I obviously just want to best for her, and don't want all of our egos overpowering useful information. 

Thanks anyways! Good luck to all


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## kellybelly

This is our little gal.... Ivy


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## SpooOwner

Ignoring 95% of what KB said ...



kellybelly said:


> I have fed my dogs RAW for almost a year, and one of them now has kidney problems.





kellybelly said:


> The protein content of the beef is 38% and the fat content of the beef is 45%. [... A]nd the chicken meal breaks down as this- 35% protein, and 41% fat. (sic)


The food she was feeding doesn't mirror PMR, which averages about 75% protein and 25% fat, depending on the cuts of meat you feed. (If some of you prefer, it can also be expressed per weight as 80% water, 15% protein, and 5% fat.) Could the imbalance in KB's food account for the dog's kidney problems?


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## 3Musketeers

kellybelly said:


> There is not a lot of misinformation of what I'm saying, just a lot of misunderstanding. A lot of info everyone has here is based on the sale of raw food for your dogs. All I'm trying to do is show you that you may be misinformed by RAW food advocates just as much as kibble supporters.
> 
> To truly have an educated view, you must look at the info provided with an unbiased mind, and see when you're being sold. There are a lot of "raw food makers" or I like to call them "businesses".


The problem with this statement is that none of us here "sells" any raw-food, and the type of raw we do feed (Prey-Model) comes from meats for human consumption, aka markets/local farms etc.
The reason we "advocate" raw so much is because it works, we have all seen the benefits in our own dogs, and it'd be wonderful to see everyone doing the same, there are so many sick pets, many from "eating biologically-inappropriate" commercial diets, which could be prevented altogether with raw.




kellybelly said:


> Dogs are not true carnivores. Dogs in the wild do eat mostly meat, however they also eat whatever they can find! FYI... dogs do eat grains in the wild.....they eat the stomach content of animals that eta grains, therefore they actually DO eat grain when in a wild setting. Not much, but they do.


It's been proven that wild dogs/wolves shake out the stomach contents of their prey. Someone already linked it. Also, whereas feedlot animals are fed grains, the reality is that those animals naturally eat a diet mainly consisting of grass, and shrubs, so the "stomach content" say, of deer, however little it may be, would be vegetation, not grains.



kellybelly said:


> This Hilary's blend has helped me out a lot with my dogs dietary needs and I do praise her for that.


Hilary, on the other hand, makes money selling her blend, you can see why she makes it out to seem so great. It is indeed better than commercial kibble, I won't argue that. It may be better than some "commercial raw" as well, seeing as many of them have a high amounts of vegetable matter, or excess fat.


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## CorgiPaws

kellybelly said:


> Whoa!! You all are really in a quarrel with me! You even copy things I've said like a lawyer might on Law and Order. Not very welcoming!


Please do not be mistaken, I don't want to argue. I am a pretty blunt person, that's all. I multi quote in my responses so it is clear exactly which parts I am responding to. My intention was not to come across "like a lawyer." I've always responded to long posts in this manner to be more clear what I am talking about. 



kellybelly said:


> Puppypaws, you are very well informed because you've done a lot of googling and research into prey specific feeding raw, barf, kibble, etc, however that doesn't mean someone else is not. Please be advised that what I was feeding was prey specific. Sorry for any confusion. Up here in good ol' Canada we call raw and "prey specific" the same thing eh.


I am certain that you are educated. I think that someone's education is only as valuable as the source from which they were educated, though. I commend those who home cook for their dogs, that's a lot of work! Certainly thy are doing worlds better than any commercial food out there for their pets, that is without a doubt. However, because you feel that cooked foods are better for a dog, I can't help but question your education. Cooking is in fact a form of processing. I feel that if dogs were better off on cooked foods, they would have been naturally equipped with the knowledge and ability to do it for themselves. Because they are not, I feel it is unnatural and therefore unnecessary.




kellybelly said:


> If it works for you, great. It doesn't work for every doggie. I'm not going to explain everything I said because your right, some of it doesn't make sense. That is why I came here fore help to see if anyone else had an issue with this food. I did go on a rant...... I'm upset my puppy is sick and I'm worried it was something I was feeding her.... the high protein high fat diet  I really didn't mean to upset anyone, just seeing what some responses might be.


Well, lets get you the help you need! I do agree that protein content and fat content are rather high. Certainly we can come up with better than that. It is never easy to see one of our loved ones, be it human or animal, not feeling well. I apologize for coming across as unwelcoming, I just felt that a lot of blanket statements were made about this community, one that I am in fact defensive of because a lot of heart goes into this place, and I felt that it was assumed we were making dumb, uninformed decisions, when that's not the case. 
We may not all be scientists, and we may not all have a degree, but we are in fact all dog owners who have a passion for their health, well being, and longevity. I do feel that a PMR diet is best for all dogs with very very few exceptions, but that it needs tweaking per each individual.


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## kellybelly

Hi puppypaws,

Any good websites about pmr information? I've found a couple, but they don't seem unbiased. It would be much appreciated as I can compare it to what I was feeding her. 
Just to be clear, my dog is really cute, however I do not eat her poop  I also understand the defensive nature. I'm there right now. I am so overwhelmed with all the information out there I am left feeling quite confused. I was really just ranting about my annoyance with all the information that's been pumped into my head..... that I blew!!! 

Please don't ignore 95% of what I say! Some of it's kind of funny with how stupid I make myself sound haha!!


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## 3Musketeers

A few sites:

Dedicated to proper carnivore nutrition - Prey Model Raw Feeding for Dogs & Cats

Raw Fed Dogs | Feeding the way Mother Nature intended!!!

RawFed.com Home Page

Raw Feeding FAQ


Also, this site explains it very well, specifically for cats, however their feeding method if different in that they use ground only, and don't go into transitioning form kibble I believe:

Feeding Your Cat: Know the Basics of Feline Nutrition :: healthy cat diet, making cat food, litter box, cat food, cat nutrition, cat urinary tract health


Books:

Raw Meaty Bones

P.S: I know, I know, my name is not Puppypaws, but thought those links would help :biggrin:


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## CorgiPaws

kellybelly said:


> Hi puppypaws,
> 
> Any good websites about pmr information? I've found a couple, but they don't seem unbiased. It would be much appreciated as I can compare it to what I was feeding her.
> Just to be clear, my dog is really cute, however I do not eat her poop  I also understand the defensive nature. I'm there right now. I am so overwhelmed with all the information out there I am left feeling quite confused. I was really just ranting about my annoyance with all the information that's been pumped into my head..... that I blew!!!
> 
> Please don't ignore 95% of what I say! Some of it's kind of funny with how stupid I make myself sound haha!!


I really think you're on one of the best resources on the web! Another being www.preymodelraw.com. I'm not sure if you'd be able to say they are entirely unbiased, because they are people who believe in the benefits and have witnessed them with their own eyes. However, neither place stands to gain anything based on your choice. There aren't a ton of resources or "studies" on pmr. Why? Because no one markets it therefore there is no one to fund such a thing. 
I suggest reading www.preymodelraw.com and then coming to the raw sections with any questions.


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## luvMyBRT

I can say that hands down this is the best place to learn about raw feeding. I am an avid raw feeder thanks to this forum and several people on here who held my hand and helped me step by step. I am pretty confident to say that I am pretty knowledgeable when it comes to raw feeding now....DFC rules! :biggrin:


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## kellybelly

Thank you very much  I really appreciate it!


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## DaneMama

I'm always late to the party, Linsey and the gang have done a good job at covering the bases arty:

KellyBelly- Lets look at specifically what your puppy was eating prior to getting sick. The dog we are talking about is the one with the kidney issues, right? Have you had diagnostics done to try and pin point WHAT caused the kidney problems in the first place? 

How old is the dog? 

What breed? 

How long have you owned this dog?

A lot of people get ahead of themselves and blame the diet first and foremost. But diet isn't a cure all. Genetics play a HUGE role in overall health of your dog. Heck, we had to put down a 6 month old Dalmation puppy not too long ago because she was in acute kidney failure. WHY? She had bilateral kidney dysplasia, meaning both kidneys were malformed and could not support her rapid growth through puppyhood. It was incredibly heartbreaking so I can relate with the frustration and anger you are experiencing with your pup.

I hope that we can set aside differences and get to the bottom of the problem and get your dog back on track to a healthy lifestyle.


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## magicre

kellybelly said:


> Hello again all!!
> 
> I should have been more clear on what I was ranting about!!
> 
> When I was comparing a human child to a dog, I clearly am not ignorant and know they are different and a multitude of ways. What I was saying is that dog food companies lead us to believe we cannot feed our dogs in an appropriate way and keep them healthy.... and I was using a comparison in saying that is we can keep another human who depends on us for food healthy and happy, then we can most certainly keep a dog healthy and happy
> 
> My response on the RAW food... I was feeding them "urban carnivore" dog food, beef and chicken meal, which is grain free, contains ground up bones and organs, also some fruit and veggie (minimal). The protein content of the beef is 38% and the fat content of the beef is 45%. Those are accurate findings, as I've contacted the manufacturer and it is so. The chicken meal is from "legacy pet foods" in Edmonton, AB, and the chicken meal breaks down as this- 35% protein, and 41% fat.
> 
> Dogs are *not* true carnivores. Dogs in the wild do eat mostly meat, however they also eat whatever they can find! FYI... dogs do eat grains in the wild.....they eat the stomach content of animals that eta grains, therefore they actually DO eat grain when in a wild setting. Not much, but they do.
> 
> Warm food vs cold food.... I am coming from a holistic standpoint on that as I have my degree in Holistic Health. Warm foods (in many opinions) are easier for the stomach to digest, however this is solely based upon belief, and to each hi/her own. There are some foods that actually increase in nutritional content when cooked/steamed.
> 
> After becoming very educated about dog food, and RAW, I personally believe my dogs do better on cooked, balanced recipes that I make them. This Hilary's blend has helped me out a lot with my dogs dietary needs and I do praise her for that.
> If you're dog does better on raw food, then by all means, that is great and should be continued.
> 
> As for the poop issue.... after taking many nutrition courses, and being educated in the health care field, chalky, very dry poop is simply not healthy for any living thing that poops. It is on the other side of the poop spectrum, and diarrhea would be on the opposing side of this spectrum. You may disagree and say "you sure have a lot to learn" however, there is absolutely nothing that will make me think that dry, chalky crumbly poop coming out of my poor puppies bum is healthy or okay. That IS a sign a dehydration, not too much bone. There is actually very little bone in the meat I was feeding her, and I even tried feeding her without any bone and it was still happening. Thank you for your suggestion though. I know there is a lot of moisture in raw food, however it just is not working for my pup.
> 
> I love how everyone cares so much about their furry loved ones, and I support everyone in the best for their animal. Just as human require different needs, I believe so do animals, therefore I will leave it at that.... holistic approach to feeding your pet.
> 
> Thank you!! Have a wonderful day


i was reading your post and you were doing great until you stated that dogs are not carnivores....yes. they are.

they are also not stupid and they are built to survive, which means if they are hungry enough they will eat anything. but only if they are hungry enough.

i'm not going to get into the argument or discussion of your education and your opinions...and generally i try to be tactful, although often i am not.

in this case, i'm just going to say you're not correct in your thinking.

warm foods might be better for humans, but have absolutely nothing to do with animals. their systems were built to survive. they'd eat a frozen polar bear if they were hungry enough.

i am sure if i were hungry enough i would eat grass or grains....but it has to do with hunger not preference.

it's not that you have so much to learn, it's that i believe you're placing human needs onto dog needs and it doesn't work, mainly because dogs are not human.

i don't know where you got the chalky crumbly poo dropping out of their behinds, but that is also simply incorrect. no one aims for that. balanced and complete is all about poo that is solid, compact and whatever colour food they were eating...heart makes poo darker, chicken makes poo lighter, too much bone makes poo chalky and that is simply not the goal.

i don't know where your education came from and it really doesn't matter in regard to this discussion. again, however, your sources are simply incorrect.

i don't support what you're doing. i'm not afraid to say that and i don't support what you're telling people who are new to this raw thing, simply because your information is incorrect.

dogs, once again, are not human. they do not have human needs when it comes to food, other than we are both carnivores,

humans have the added need for other things, but i don't want to confuse the issue because the biggest mistake is imposing humans onto dogs....and that is precisely what you and hillary are doing...

i'm glad your dogs are fine....i don't think they are...i'm thinking they are surviving on the diet you feed them, but i highly doubt they are thriving.

i am speaking, by the way, about the average dog with the average stomach.....not dogs with certain digestive issues that require a little more singing and dancing....

one more thing. that you keep bringing up how educated you are.....do you think that gives you more credibility?

i'm an MD. i not only had to learn about human nutrition due to the three hours we got in med school.....i had to learn about canine nutrition, given my vet only had three hours, too...and the people out there for the most part who are trying to profit from the " new raw craze" -- i would doubt their credentials too.


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## nupe

there is absolutely nothing else to say after this post above^^^^^........WOW!~!!


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## lily

ive learnt that people are so brainwashed to kibble feeding,a bulldog forum im on ,well i hardly look at it now,are so set against raw feeding they believe my dog will choke to death on a chicken back,or inhale some organ !!!,they pay up to 65 english pound for a 15kg bag of kibble only to add supplements to help their dogs,toppings to tempt their dogs to eat the expensive kibble,then on another section they are asking for advice on their dogs allergy or ilness!!!,then the trip to the vet for lotions,potions,and a different kibble that the vet recomended so it has to be good right!!,i just wish people would open their minds to raw and at least try it before condeming it,but the wheels of corporate advertising keep rolling ,all over joe public,karen


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## magicre

i'm not so rigid as to say what people should feed a dog --- but make a careful common sense opinion

it's the dissemination of false information that irks me. 

and that's how people get confused.....


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## Kofismom

Linsey,
It's true that with posts like this you must reply to one sentence at a time. Have you ever seem my quotes? I rarely do it like it should be done, but fortunately if I try to keep it simple the good people here can understand what I was trying to do.
For this reason I would like to add my thanks to your well organized, informative, accurate post's.
I am so frustrated by "well informed experts" that that are so adamant about their misinformation.
I in no way feel I am an expert on feeding PMR, but take happily tip my hat to those of you who are. 
Thanks to the whole great lot of you!
I just love you guys!


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## Kofismom

magicre said:


> i'm not so rigid as to say what people should feed a dog --- but make a careful common sense opinion
> 
> it's the dissemination of false information that irks me.
> 
> and that's how people get confused.....


 Yep, that's what I was trying to say!!!


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## GiantsSlave

Hi everyone! 
Ui have read the entire post and can't be more confused! I see a lot of great dane owners on here...

Ok, I know I am going to sound stupid and well, when it comes to food I am! But I can and will be the first to admit! I do however have a huuuge problem!

I have 2 giant breed dogs: (both rescues so I know nothing of their bloodlines)
-2.5 year old english mastiff who will and does eat anything I give to him cooked or notand is a very healthy boy
-2. Year old great dane...which is where my huge problem rests with. His problem is that he has E.P.I (diagnosed on December 27th so I've spent 9 months struggling and stressing with this poor dog EPI dogs are EXTREMLY thin!!!), diease of the pancrease. This dog cannot have any kind of kibble, it goes RIGHT thru him...and allllllllllll over the walls. Yes, its horrible! I have done a lot of research on what to feed dogs with E.P.I and found again and again to feed cow's heart, kidneys and liver ground up and cooked mixed with the pancrease of the cow (which is to be fed raw, blended in a "milkshake" consistent liquid left at room temps to get the enzymes to work best, add a bit of warm water and let sit for 30 minutes before feeding the dog. 

Now, he is on, been 5 days, a Hillerary's Blend diet that is cod liver oil, oatmeat and hard boiled eggs (easy to digest iswhy I picked it, at my wits end!) And starting tonite, have given him the organ mixtuer (minues the pancreas, very hard to get!!) Ontop of that food.

Please, advice, lectures, anything to help my poor dane!he is stupid skinny to the point he is always cold and it is breaking my heart, making me loose sleep and stressing me out soo much I cry every time I see him without his coat on!!!


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## GiantsSlave

I did forget to mention that I did try him on a commercial raw food, after talking to many dane owners/breeders about 3 months after I rescued him and he wouldn't touch it! Didn't eat for 3 days wouldn't eat it and I switched him back to kibble because I wasn't going to let him starve to death!


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## Huginn

I cant answer your question GiantsSlave, but I may be able to help by suggesting you start a new thread so get some answers more directed for you. Good look.


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## magicre

one of your dogs has EPI......?

i remember we had a poster here with two leonbergers...one had epi.....i can't find the thread.....


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## DaneMama

Re, the member you are thinking of is 3RingCircus

GiantsSlave- I would send 3RingCircus a private message to get more information on her dogs and how they are handling a raw meaty bones diet. Last I knew they were both doing very well...but she hasn't posted in a while. Here's a link to her profile:

View Profile: 3RingCircus - Dog Food Forum


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## magicre

hi...i don't know much about EPI dogs.....and i can't even say this group will be of any help, but it is centered around epi dogs

k9-EPIGLOBAL : Exocrine Pancreatic Insufficiency Dogs


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## Mondo

Not sure what the commercial raw was or what is in it. One of my boys won't touch most commercial either - at least the mixes with veggies/fruits added. Just sniffs and looks at me with that WTF? look and walks away. Give him a chicken wing and he's all over it.


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