# Diabetes



## theyoungers (Dec 15, 2009)

Hi All,

We just found out our 8 year old mini schnauzer, Emmy has diabetes. Getting used to the insulin routine, but our vet sold us this "hills" branded food that Emmy HATES. I think this stuff is made by Science Diet which she hated as a puppy. Anyone have a suggestion on a better food that is reasonably priced? 

Thanks in advance for your comments. Any other tips on caring for a diabetic dog are greatly appreciated!


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## RawFedDogs (Jun 16, 2008)

SD Prescription diets really suck. I don't see how a dog can survive on them. I assume you are trying to feed w/d food. The first ingredient is ground corn. Corn is one of the worst things you can feed a dog. The second ingredient is powdered cellulose which is a fancy word for sawdust.

I'm not an expert on diabetes but what little I do know says that you want to feed as few carbs as possible. This w/d stuff is close to 70% carbs. Thats very very high. Most kibbles are around 50% carbs. I feed my dogs (that aren't diabetic) 0 carbs. Dogs are carnivores and have no dietary need for carbs.

I would suggest the best thing you could do would be feed a prey model raw diet of raw meat, bones, and organs. If that is not up your alley, find a food with the lowest carbs you can find.

Disclaimer: I am not a vet nor a vet tech but I have seen both on tv. :smile:


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## malluver1005 (Nov 15, 2009)

RawFedDogs said:


> SD Prescription diets really suck. I don't see how a dog can survive on them. I assume you are trying to feed w/d food. The first ingredient is ground corn. Corn is one of the worst things you can feed a dog. The second ingredient is powdered cellulose which is a fancy word for sawdust.
> 
> I'm not an expert on diabetes but what little I do know says that you want to feed as few carbs as possible. This w/d stuff is close to 70% carbs. Thats very very high. Most kibbles are around 50% carbs. I feed my dogs (that aren't diabetic) 0 carbs. Dogs are carnivores and have no dietary need for carbs.
> 
> ...


Definitely stay away from SD Prescription Diets. The kibble I have seen on the market with the lowest carbs is Evo Weight Management. It has 11% carbs and 15% fat. Evo also has another low carb formula and it's called Evo Turkey and Chicken. Carbs are 12% in this, but fat is 22%, and with your dogs condition, I don't know if the more fat the better, or less is better.


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## rannmiller (Jun 27, 2008)

You'll want to avoid carbs as much as possible. I am a vet tech and one of my fellow vet techs is borderline obsessed with diabetes in our pets (mind you, her focus is cats, but they're both carnivores and it's the same basic concept). She has had her diabetic cat for about ten years now and has gotten him into remission using her methods based on way too much research so now she's taken on a client's diabetic cat for free and has gotten him into remission in just two weeks! 

The main thing she recommends is a prey model raw diet to help control it. I'll get you the info for her website when I get back from work.


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## theyoungers (Dec 15, 2009)

thanks for the help on this! i hope we can find the right diet for Emmy and get this under control.


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## nlgordaz (Dec 21, 2009)

The main thing is indeed your dogs diet. You have to change his diet to low fat and low sugar. Your vet should be able to provide you with a list of what he can and cannot eat. I would also try to find other people that have dogs with diabetes, specifically Miniature Schnauzers. These people will probably have a lot of insight about caring for diabetic dogs. And if you find another Min. Schnauzer owner, than that's a bonus.


Hope this helps,
Lane


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## RawFedDogs (Jun 16, 2008)

I just happened to think ... I'll bet there is a yahoo list for owners of diabetic dogs. If you know how to navigate through the yahoo lists, I'm sure you can find one. You will be able to chat with others in your same situation and find out how they handle things. They would give you better info than your vet.


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## Joanna (Jan 4, 2010)

*I'm in the same boat but a little further down stream*

Hi there

My 13 year old poodle x australian terrier was diagnosed with diabetes in October last year.

The vet told me to feed him Hills prescription diet w/d, and we did. He hated it so they suggested mixing in boiled chicken as half of the mix. This went OK for a while, then he hated it again.

During this time I was doing research online. I have to agree after months of looking around at dozens and dozens of web sites that Hills Science Diet (or prescription diet) is really really CRAP for your dog.

The member/moderator RawFedDogs is correct in that it is mostly corn - which even humans have a hard time digesting and is not suitable at all for dogs, and powdered cellulose is saw dust.

I think it was probably slowly killing my dog. The fact that he hated it and we mixed through all sorts of stuff to get him to eat the crap meant he had no strict diet control so of course regulating insulin was very very hard.

I've since cooked up a HUGE batch home made dog food. After looking online it appears most commercial dog food is made from euthanized animals, left over restaurant grease, road kill and all sorts of GARBAGE. Why, to save money. 

Anyways, the ingredients I settled on is 1 third meat mix, 1 third vegetable/fruit mix and 1 third fibre/grains mix.

The meat mix consists of (in order of qty) chicken, beef, lambs fry and lambs brains (I put the brains in simply because my dog is very very underweight - probably thanks to science diet (as well as his diabetes)).

The vegetable mix consists of sweet potato, pumpkin, green beans, beetroot, carrots, squash, dried cranberries, apples, broccoli and peas. These are all high fiber vegetables which dogs can digest. Also beetroot and red colored vegetables are good for diabetic dogs (you will have to google, I have all this in my head but I don't want to type something in I'm not sure of - but I chose to include these after reading about the benefits of each veg for my dog, from liver health, to slow release energy, to controlling sugar metabolism and even slowing crystals in the eyes forming!)

The fibre/grains mix consists of brown rice, white rice, oat bran, rye bread, oats and wheet germ.

I choose to steam the vegetables briefly - they were still firmish when I stopped steaming - this was to release some more vitamins with out destroying others. The only vegetable I peeled was the pumpkin, as the skins are high in fibre.

I chose to boil the chicken in the broth from the steamed veggies. I boiled it just enough so it was still a little pink inside. This is to kill bacteria as diabetic dogs pick up infections very easily. I also added some bacon stock cubes, as most dogs love bacon.

The beef, liver and brains (again brains only if your dog is underweight, although it has other good things in it anyways besides fat) I pan fried lightly in olive oil, again leaving pink in the middle but killing off bacteria.

The rices I boiled in bacon and chicken stock cubes.

Everything except for the rice/fibre mix was processed well in a blender.

When mixing I bought 3 big tubs - 1 for each aspect (meat, veg, grains/fibre) so I could mix the contents THOROUGHLY. Then I added the three tubs together and again mixed thoroughly. I poured any stock and broth left into the mix.

It came out looking like dog food!!!!!!! It was kinda weird. But it looked like GOOD dog food.

My dog LOVES IT!. While cooking I gave him a little sample of the grains mix alone and he tucked into that with out any meat in it.

So my freezer has 55 days worth of this, all measured out for morning and night feeding with his insulin. It took a lot of work but I'm very proud and my dog loves it, so that makes me happy too.

I'm contemplating putting a teaspoon of fresh cottage cheese and half a boiled egg through each meal, I'm still researching that.

I'm just joined this forum now to try and get some feedback about some herbal ingredients I bought which are good for slow sugar intake, liver health, insulin regulation/production (that might not make sense, this is still a lil cloudy in my head, but I know I'm know I'm on the right path) among other benefits for diabetic dogs, so look out for that post in a sec.

I have to admit my dog has only been on this diet for about a week. His stools are firm, he loves it and I can't see how this can be worse than Hills diets!!! He goes back to the vet in a few weeks to have his blood sugar curved, but since he has had a drastic change in diet - getting him off Hills Science Shit - the insulin regulation probably will have to start from scratch.

But at least he is getting the same food, the same amount morning and night and that is a good start to regulating insulin. Hard to regulate insulin when your dog food diet is messed around by adding ingredients willy nilly to get the dog just to eat it.

I don't believe my vet understands how bad Hills Science Diet is. They have to specialize in all aspects of dog health - from teeth, broken legs, cancer, etc etc. It's not like they specialize in one field like our own doctors. I just don't think they have time to understand nutrition, and Hills takes advantage of this. Hills also sponsors their nutritional part of their education so WHO KNOWS what they get told.

I'll keep you posted! Best of luck.

BTW some people just answer my questions on other forums with stuff like "13 year old dogs die get over it". My dogs are very fit other than diabetes, ran their asses off down at the park chasing tennis balls for half an hour today as they do every day


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## Joanna (Jan 4, 2010)

*Regarding raw diet and feeding dogs meat alone*

Some thing of interest which I found out is that if you just feed your dog raw meat they miss out on grains/fruit and veg which is in the digestive track of the herbivores they would naturally kill and eat in the wild.


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## RawFedDogs (Jun 16, 2008)

Joanna said:


> I've since cooked up a HUGE batch home made dog food.


Actually you are cooking him a huge batch of human food and not dog food. Read on and you will see why I say this. Also, you seem to have not taken into consideration that you are preparing this food for a diabetic dog. You want to feed as few carbs (sugar) as possible because his body just can't handle sugar. Thats why you have to give him insulin.



> Anyways, the ingredients I settled on is 1 third meat mix, 1 third vegetable/fruit mix and 1 third fibre/grains mix.


Dogs, being carnivores have no need for veggies/fruits nor grains. They have no need nor the ability to properly digest plant material.



> The meat mix consists of (in order of qty) chicken, beef, lambs fry and lambs brains (I put the brains in simply because my dog is very very underweight - probably thanks to science diet (as well as his diabetes)).


All these ingredients are good. You could also feed beef heart because it's relatively cheap and very nutrient rich. Pork roasts are good to feed when you find them on sale. I would also feed some fish from time to time. Either whole fish or canned. Salmon is particularly rich in Omega 3 fatty acids.



> The vegetable mix consists of sweet potato*(sugar)*, pumpkin*(sugar*, and it masks digestive problems) green beans, beetroot*(sugar)*, carrots*(sugar)*, squash, dried cranberries*(sugar)*, apples*(sugar)*, broccoli and peas.


As you can see, there is A LOT of sugar in this diet. Dogs have no dietary need for plant material so all these can be left out of the diet. My next post will go into more detail about eating stomach contents of prey animals.



> These are all high fiber vegetables which dogs can digest.


Dogs don't possess the needed dentation, jaw structure, intestinal stucture, nor does it produce the necessary enzymes to digest those things.



> Also beetroot and red colored vegetables are good for diabetic dogs (you will have to google, I have all this in my head but I don't want to type something in I'm not sure of - but I chose to include these after reading about the benefits of each veg for my dog, from liver health, to slow release energy, to controlling sugar metabolism and even slowing crystals in the eyes forming!)


You are being given bad information, even for diabetic dogs.



> The fibre/grains mix consists of brown rice, white rice, oat bran, rye bread, oats and wheet germ.


Again, these are not necessary and totally inappropriate for your dogs. They will only clog up his digestive system and slow down the digestiion of meats, bones, and organs.



> I chose to boil the chicken in the broth from the steamed veggies. I boiled it just enough so it was still a little pink inside. This is to kill bacteria as diabetic dogs pick up infections very easily. I also added some bacon stock cubes, as most dogs love bacon.


Diabetes does not affect the dogs ability to kill bacteria in his stomach. Diabetic dogs may get infections from external wounds very easily but not from bacteria injested with food.



> The beef, liver and brains (again brains only if your dog is underweight, although it has other good things in it anyways besides fat) I pan fried lightly in olive oil, again leaving pink in the middle but killing off bacteria.


Again, don't worry about bacteria in the food. It is not a problem.



> The rices I boiled in bacon and chicken stock cubes.


Rice is no better for dogs than it is for humans.



> When mixing I bought 3 big tubs - 1 for each aspect (meat, veg, grains/fibre) so I could mix the contents THOROUGHLY. Then I added the three tubs together and again mixed thoroughly. I poured any stock and broth left into the mix.


You are going to A LOT of trouble when all you need to do is hand your dog an animal part and let him eat it. You need to feed your dog RAW meat, bones, and organs from a variety of animals. Feed a variety of animal parts from a variety of animals. Feed mostly meat, some bone, and some organ. The exact ratio isn't critical.



> It came out looking like dog food!!!!!!! It was kinda weird. But it looked like GOOD dog food.


It is actually human food. Humans are omnivores and need all those food groups. Dogs only have a dietary need for meat, bones, and organs.



> My dog LOVES IT!. While cooking I gave him a little sample of the grains mix alone and he tucked into that with out any meat in it.
> 
> So my freezer has 55 days worth of this, all measured out for morning and night feeding with his insulin. It took a lot of work but I'm very proud and my dog loves it, so that makes me happy too.


I love cake, ice cream, and candy (also full of sugar like your dog's diet) but that doesn't mean I get any real nutrition from them.



> I'm contemplating putting a teaspoon of fresh cottage cheese and half a boiled egg through each meal, I'm still researching that.


Just give him a raw egg. Eggs have a lot of nutrition in them and are good for your dog. I give my dogs a raw egg at least once a week.



> I'm just joined this forum now to try and get some feedback about some herbal ingredients I bought which are good for slow sugar intake, liver health, insulin regulation/production (that might not make sense, this is still a lil cloudy in my head, but I know I'm know I'm on the right path) among other benefits for diabetic dogs, so look out for that post in a sec.


I'm not an expert on herbs but I seriously doubt what you have been told about them. I"m afraid someone was just trying to sell you stuff. Do some more independent research to determine the validity of that information. Research in places not trying to sell them.



> I have to admit my dog has only been on this diet for about a week. His stools are firm, he loves it and I can't see how this can be worse than Hills diets!!! He goes back to the vet in a few weeks to have his blood sugar curved, but since he has had a drastic change in diet - getting him off Hills Science Shit - the insulin regulation probably will have to start from scratch.
> 
> But at least he is getting the same food, the same amount morning and night and that is a good start to regulating insulin. Hard to regulate insulin when your dog food diet is messed around by adding ingredients willy nilly to get the dog just to eat it.


Exactly! And it looks like to me thats exactly what you have done.



> I don't believe my vet understands how bad Hills Science Diet is. They have to specialize in all aspects of dog health - from teeth, broken legs, cancer, etc etc. It's not like they specialize in one field like our own doctors. I just don't think they have time to understand nutrition, and Hills takes advantage of this. Hills also sponsors their nutritional part of their education so WHO KNOWS what they get told.


You are 100% correct on that also.


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## RawFedDogs (Jun 16, 2008)

Joanna said:


> Some thing of interest which I found out is that if you just feed your dog raw meat they miss out on grains/fruit and veg which is in the digestive track of the herbivores they would naturally kill and eat in the wild.


Thats some bad information also. In the wild, dogs/wolves don't eat the stomach contents of their prey animals.

From David Mech's Wolves: Behavior, Ecology and Conservation (2003):

"_Wolves usually tear into the body cavity of large prey and...consume the larger internal organs, such as lungs, heart and liver. The large rumen [, which is one of the main stomach chambers in large ruminant herbivores,]...is usually punctured during removal and its contents spilled. The vegetation in the intestinal tract is of no interest to the wolves, but the stomach lining and intestinal wall are consumed, and their contents further strewn about the kill site._"
-p123

"_To grow and maintain their own bodies, wolves need to ingest all the major parts of their herbivorous prey, except the plants in the digestive system._" 
-p124

I sometimes feed my dogs whole rabbits. They will tear into the belly, gently remove the stomach, sissor it open, shake out the contents, then eat the stomach. Then they gently lift out the intestins and lay them in a neat little pile away from the carcass. When they finish eating, there is a neat little pile of intestines and some food stewn around the site and everything else is gone.

I find little stomachs all around from the prey animals my cats kill and eat. They will be in the carport, on the porch, on the sidewalk and sometimes in the house.


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## Joanna (Jan 4, 2010)

*Only time will tell*

We'll have to disagree a fair bit here. I thank you for your input tho.

Fortunately my vet told me it doesn't matter what diet (dog food obviously not mars bars) he is on as long as it is consistent, and from research I have done I'm settling on my decision and am happy.

I will take into account what you have mentioned should I learn more down the track.

No one can agree on anything on the internet which is to be expected, everyone has different ideas and opinions about this sort of thing which makes it so hard. Again I appreciate your input but I'm not changing his diet because I've spent months searching online while watching my dog waste away on Hills (which is something we do agree on  and am happy with my decision.

I spent a long time investigating raw. We came to different decisions I guess.
BTW I'm the biggest skeptic on the planet so I don't read off sites trying to flog products to me.


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## Joanna (Jan 4, 2010)

*Does this forum email you when someone replies to a post?*

I haven't been alerted to your reply by email even tho I checked the box to allow users to email me (yeah yeah that might not be the same thing, but I allowed the forum/people to contact me when signing up)

Does it tell you when someone has responded by email coz that sure would be handy then coming back and refreshing

Cheers


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## RawFedDogs (Jun 16, 2008)

Joanna said:


> I haven't been alerted to your reply by email even tho I checked the box to allow users to email me (yeah yeah that might not be the same thing, but I allowed the forum/people to contact me when signing up)
> 
> Does it tell you when someone has responded by email coz that sure would be handy then coming back and refreshing
> 
> Cheers


To get what I think you are talking about:
1. Select "User CP" in the green menu at the top of this screen
2. Select "edit options"
3. go to "default thread subscription mode"
4. open dropdown box and select "instant email notification"
5. At the very bottom of the page, click "save changes"

I think that will get what you are asking for. Good luck. :smile:


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## CorgiPaws (Mar 31, 2009)

I won't go into the carnivore/ omnivore debate, because generally someone convinced their dog is an omnivore is pretty set in their ways on that matter. 
I will say that this diet has an ALARMINGLY high amount of carbohydrates in it for any dog, let alone a diabetic one. That's begging for trouble already. 
I applaud you, however, for your dedication and time spent is trying to do the best for your dog. That's always refreshing to see.:biggrin:


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