# Mike Ellis and Team Tsuga starting the Iditarod trail fueled by Horizon Legacy



## DaViking (Sep 27, 2011)

Mike Ellis feeds his team of Siberians Horizon Legacy Pro 40/19, grain and potato free. Go Mike and go Horizon. Even if I don't currently feed Horizon, I have said multiple times, Legacy is a darn good food and the only grain free formula I have seen consistently good results from, regardless of activity type, level and dog. The Pro version comes in 55lb bags.


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## whiteleo (Sep 7, 2008)

What will monstersdad think?


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## monster'sdad (Jul 29, 2012)

whiteleo said:


> What will monstersdad think?[/QUOTE
> 
> I think good for them. They are from New Hamshire and like most eastern teams sort of a hobbiests team.
> 
> Have they won any races?


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## DaViking (Sep 27, 2011)

monster'sdad said:


> whiteleo said:
> 
> 
> > What will monstersdad think?[/QUOTE
> ...


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## BearMurphy (Feb 29, 2012)

for some reason horizon wasn't on my radar when I fed kibble and I don't really know what to recommend people when they ask me about dog food anymore. Looks like it's right up there with Fromm grain free in price. What do you think makes it a better food? Do they do feeding trials?


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## monster'sdad (Jul 29, 2012)

DaViking said:


> monster'sdad said:
> 
> 
> > They are an Alaska based team.
> ...


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## DaViking (Sep 27, 2011)

monster'sdad said:


> DaViking said:
> 
> 
> > Maybe they should correct the website then. Clearly states they are based and live in central New Hampshire and met in college in Plymouth NH.
> ...


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## monster'sdad (Jul 29, 2012)

BearMurphy said:


> for some reason horizon wasn't on my radar when I fed kibble and I don't really know what to recommend people when they ask me about dog food anymore. Looks like it's right up there with Fromm grain free in price. What do you think makes it a better food? Do they do feeding trials?


Horizon's regular line looks the best...simple proven recipe. Probably a good value too.


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## DaViking (Sep 27, 2011)

BearMurphy said:


> Looks like it's right up there with Fromm grain free in price. What do you think makes it a better food? Do they do feeding trials?


In 55lb bags it should be way cheaper than Fromm GF, priced below comparable Dr Tims products. Around here the regular bags are priced similar to Fromm Gold. Why do I think it's a good food? Well, first of all the basic requirements are there like animal to plant ratio, good fat/oil sources, chelated minerals etc etc, the usual stuff. Then things like the majority of all their ingredients comes from within a 60 mins drive from their plant. The rest from the west coast, US, France and Switzerland. Nothing China and nothing third world, most of it very short traveled. Of course nothing of this matters if it don't work in real life. Legacy does work. Fwiw, Legacy is the only GF food I have seen that produces good results across the board. Meaning all kinds of breeds, sizes, activity and activity level. Sure there are dogs who does great on Orijen, Evo, Earthborn or what have you but chances are that the dog next door will do terrible on one of these are pretty high. Many dogs on other GF formulas also seem to be sensitive to activity level. Meaning, increasing the stress results in improper transit times of the digesta. Not good. From what I have seen Legacy works good under many different circumstances and is probably why it slowly but steadily gains popularity in some sport and racing/mushing circles. It's not a big company and all their products need to stand on their own merits, no huge budget for fancy marketing promising the moon and some.

By the way, the Legacy Pro mushers etc use have 40% protein and 19%fat. The regular retail Legacy have 34% protein and 15% fat.


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## Sheltielover25 (Jan 18, 2011)

DaViking said:


> In 55lb bags it should be way cheaper than Fromm GF, priced below comparable Dr Tims products. Around here the regular bags are priced similar to Fromm Gold. Why do I think it's a good food? Well, first of all the basic requirements are there like animal to plant ratio, good fat/oil sources, chelated minerals etc etc, the usual stuff. Then things like the majority of all their ingredients comes from within a 60 mins drive from their plant. The rest from US, UK, Germany and Switzerland. Nothing China and nothing third world, most of it very short traveled. Of course nothing of this matters if it don't work in real life. Legacy does work. Fwiw, Legacy is the only GF food I have seen that produces good results across the board. Meaning all kinds of breeds, sizes, activity and activity level. Sure there are dogs who does great on Orijen, Evo, Earthborn or what have you but chances are that the dog next door will do terrible on one of these are pretty high. Many dogs on other GF formulas also seem to be sensitive to activity level. Meaning, increasing the stress results in improper transit times of the digesta. Not good. From what I have seen Legacy works good under many different circumstances and is probably why it slowly but steadily gains popularity in some sport and racing/mushing circles. It's not a big company and all their products need to stand on their own merits, no huge budget for fancy marketing promising the moon and some.
> 
> By the way, the Legacy Pro mushers etc use have 40% protein and 19%fat. The regular retail Legacy have 34% protein and 15% fat.


It does look like decent kibble. I like the 80% meat on the legacy. Do you worry about the ash levels being in the 8%-9% range? Is that high? Seems high but I don't really know too much about the ash subject.


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## Herzo (Feb 5, 2011)

I would like to know if he feeds anything extra. Seems like most sled dog people feed some raw with there kibble. I have to say I want to know because people always say you shouldn't feed it together and they don't seem to have any problems.

Also why do they do this? What is the plus side to this?


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## DaViking (Sep 27, 2011)

Sheltielover25 said:


> It does look like decent kibble. I like the 80% meat on the legacy. Do you worry about the ash levels being in the 8%-9% range? Is that high? Seems high but I don't really know too much about the ash subject.


Not worried but sure I'd love to see it lower. In my book excessive ash is just a waste.


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## DaViking (Sep 27, 2011)

Herzo said:


> I would like to know if he feeds anything extra. Seems like most sled dog people feed some raw with there kibble. I have to say I want to know because people always say you shouldn't feed it together and they don't seem to have any problems.
> 
> Also why do they do this? What is the plus side to this?


You can safely feed raw and kibble together. Some say it will upset the dog because transit times are different. Sure transit times will be different but it will not cause any issues. There is no basis for this " transit times causing upsets" theory. Initially dogs fed a combination of raw and kibble suffer some upsets and vomiting because the digestive tools (bile/enzymes) are not present. They will adjust.


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## monster'sdad (Jul 29, 2012)

No issue with mixing. The raw feeders use that as a fear creator to influence people not to use any kibble. It is part of the whole agenda. You never hear that about mixing canned with kibble. Usually they spin the fear by saying because the kibble slows things down there is high risk for bacterial infection but that is not true.

OP, The 80% meat statement is just marketing junk. That is pre-cooking weight, so it counts water.


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## Losech (Jul 10, 2012)

Herzo said:


> I would like to know if he feeds anything extra. Seems like most sled dog people feed some raw with there kibble. I have to say I want to know because people always say you shouldn't feed it together and they don't seem to have any problems.
> 
> Also why do they do this? What is the plus side to this?


I worked at a sleddog kennel for a few months this past winter. They did a mixture of ground chicken (lots of boney stuff), ground, beef, pulverized liver, ground fat, rice, powdered eggs, a fish/corn oil mix, and Red Paw 32K kibble, with a few supplements and water added in. It came out to be 5 pounds of beef, about 4 pounds of liver, 10 pounds of chicken, 2-5 pounds of fat (depending on the temperature), 2 gallons of cooked rice, 5 cups of egg powder, a cup of oil, and five large coffee cans of Red Paw. Supplements were 1 1/4 cups vitamin/mineral mix, 10 scoops (teaspoons?) of zinc powder, about 3 cups psyllium husks, and around 10 gallons of water. This mix fed 68 dogs.
This particular kennel fed this mix (it actually varied a lot depending on what and when in the season it is, this was the "racing" mix) because they felt that straight kibble was no good for sprint racing dogs, meaning that there are lots of digestive problems when a dog is worked incredibly hard and is eating only kibble, and that straight raw/rice was lacking in nutrients that the kibble provided and would otherwise be a pain in the butt to supplement individually to proper levels. The vitamin/mineral mix was a general booster added during race season, and the zinc was mainly for the dog's feet once they got some real miles on them. Also, they fed the food type mix since it provided enough energy and nutrients for these dogs that would be difficult to obtain with only one or the other.

Anywho, in my experiences with my dogs, mixing raw and kibble has no bad effects whatsoever. Sure feeding a big chunk of liver with a bowl of kibble might not be the best idea in the world, but mixing a small bit of liver and/or some meat with kibble? Just fine. I currently feed kibble and raw foods as separate meals (AM and PM) but not because they digest at different rates or whathaveyou. I do it that way since it works out best at this moment.




monster'sdad said:


> No issue with mixing. The raw feeders use that as a fear creator to influence people not to use any kibble. It is part of the whole agenda. You never hear that about mixing canned with kibble. Usually they spin the fear by saying because the kibble slows things down there is high risk for bacterial infection but that is not true.


I agree. Those rawfoodie zealots drive me up a wall with their incorrect "facts".


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## MollyWoppy (Mar 19, 2010)

I know two dogs fed kibble in the morning and raw at night. Always soft poop. Feed either kibble or raw exclusively, no problems. My dog can mix the two without a problem, so maybe it depends on the dog itself. And, you'd probably call me one of those zealots you're 
talking about with whatever agenda I'm meant to have.


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## lauren43 (Feb 6, 2011)

I have to say that Tess, who has been struggling with nasty yeasty itchy ears for almost 2+ years is finally seeing relief (fingers crossed things stay this way). She is a 12lb maltese/shih tzu mix and although she is still a bit overweight this is the best result we've seen! She is on Horizon Pulsar Chicken though, not the legacy because she's a couch potato.




Sheltielover25 said:


> It does look like decent kibble. I like the 80% meat on the legacy. Do you worry about the ash levels being in the 8%-9% range? Is that high? Seems high but I don't really know too much about the ash subject.


In my opinion 8% is probably as high as you want to go. Once we get over 10% I get a bit uncomfortable.



monster'sdad said:


> No issue with mixing. The raw feeders use that as a fear creator to influence people not to use any kibble. It is part of the whole agenda. You never hear that about mixing canned with kibble. Usually they spin the fear by saying because the kibble slows things down there is high risk for bacterial infection but that is not true.
> 
> OP, The 80% meat statement is just marketing junk. That is pre-cooking weight, so it counts water.


You really need to calm down with your generalizations. It is a simple fact that raw digests faster than kibble. And as a raw feeder I would suggest that if you choose to mix you wait 12 hours in between raw vs kibble to hopefully avoid digestive upset. Is that necessary for all dogs? No. But perhaps that's a way to start. I do not have any issue with ppl just feeding their dogs kibble, just like I don't have any issues with ppl feeding raw. My biggest issue is with the Joe Sh-mo that just buys the cheapest bag on the shelf without a second thought as to what they are putting into their dogs body.


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## monster'sdad (Jul 29, 2012)

There are no facts that raw food is digested any faster than kibble. What is true is that kibble because of the fiber (particularly beet pulp) has a slower transit time.


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## naturalfeddogs (Jan 6, 2011)

monster'sdad said:


> There are no facts that raw food is digested any faster than kibble. What is true is that kibble because of the fiber (particularly beet pulp) has a slower transit time.


Beet pulp, along with all the other unessesary and artificial cooked ingredients that the system wasn't designed for. All of that is harder for the system to digest, vs. what it IS meant to digest. So yes, that does have the slower transit time through the body.


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## monster'sdad (Jul 29, 2012)

naturalfeddogs said:


> Beet pulp, along with all the other unessesary and artificial cooked ingredients that the system wasn't designed for. All of that is harder for the system to digest, vs. what it IS meant to digest. So yes, that does have the slower transit time through the body.



Recent science has just proven the dog's system is capable of utilizing pretty much any food product that it is likely to come into contact with. That science has also shown the evolutionary path to consume cooked grains.

The Wolf Analogy is now dead. It is as dead as Elvis. There is no "ancestral diet" as is normally marketed.

As for cooking, cooking actually allows for the absorption of nutrients that are not available in a raw state. Cornell has shown that cooked yellow corn has 3 times the antixoidants as broccoli. This is also true of many other foods.


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## DaViking (Sep 27, 2011)

Raw will mix with whatever else is fed. The digesta will depend on factors like moisture, kibble size, density, shape, fiber mix and bile production. Transit times is a non issue. If a dog have upsets and/or vomiting it's not because of different rate of digestion.


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## naturalfeddogs (Jan 6, 2011)

How do you know for a fact vomiting and diarrhea is not from the two mixed? Can you prove that? A link to studies or something?


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## naturalfeddogs (Jan 6, 2011)

monster'sdad said:


> Recent science has just proven the dog's system is capable of utilizing pretty much any food product that it is likely to come into contact with. That science has also shown the evolutionary path to consume cooked grains.
> 
> The Wolf Analogy is now dead. It is as dead as Elvis. There is no "ancestral diet" as is normally marketed.
> 
> As for cooking, cooking actually allows for the absorption of nutrients that are not available in a raw state. Cornell has shown that cooked yellow corn has 3 times the antixoidants as broccoli. This is also true of many other foods.


I do agree that cooking of some veggies can release some nutrients for a dog, but It's minimal at best. I will just point blank say, I have to agree to disagree with the rest of what you said. I will never believe any of it. In fact, it seems like it was media somewhere that started the whole evolutionary stuff that dogs aren't meant to eat raw or something like that. I think it is bologna, honestly.


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## Herzo (Feb 5, 2011)

Woe, woe, woe I didn't ask this to start a fight I am very curious about it. And thanks every one for you answers. MD I even sort of liked yours however you did not need to gab at raw feeders, it was unnecessary and was totally uncalled for.

I feed 2 of my dogs with both but I never mix it together I always feed it separate. Have had no problems with either of them.

Losech that was very informative, How about the puppies do they feed them some raw or all kibble?


Sense there was some posting before I got this up I want to say that at least for the sled dogs so I guess I would think it would be for other dogs it must not bother them or they could not be able to work that hard. If they had stomach upset.


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## naturalfeddogs (Jan 6, 2011)

I know Herzo, you aren't starting anything. Others do jab at raw, even when someone's trying to be helpful. I call truce now. It wasn't meant to ditch raw or kibble, just always seem to go that way.


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## Losech (Jul 10, 2012)

Herzo said:


> How about the puppies do they feed them some raw or all kibble?


Pups got almost the same as the adults, just without the chicken and extra supplements, until about six months old then they got what the others ate.


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## monster'sdad (Jul 29, 2012)

naturalfeddogs said:


> I do agree that cooking of some veggies can release some nutrients for a dog, but It's minimal at best. I will just point blank say, I have to agree to disagree with the rest of what you said. I will never believe any of it. In fact, it seems like it was media somewhere that started the whole evolutionary stuff that dogs aren't meant to eat raw or something like that. I think it is bologna, honestly.


You always disagree with no back-up. The Cornell study as well as other show the effects of cooking yellow corn, as well as other grains and vegetables.

So are you also disagreeing with the study published about two weeks that showed domesticated dogs have different genes dealing with digestion than wolves? It is pretty clear that domesticated dogs have very little in common with wolves and that domesticated dogs evolved along with humans eating cooked foods.

It was removed from this section because it rubbed certain people the wrong way, but it has been known for decades there was a "village dog"in evolution and that genetic study proved it. This is the kibble section so why was that study removed?

Dogs Adapted to Agriculture | The Scientist Magazine®


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## BearMurphy (Feb 29, 2012)

Thank you DaViking for answering my question. I didn't even see the Pro version on their website and would be more likely to recommend the regular adult version for the average dog owner because I don't like to go much above 30% protein in kibble. I'm also happy to hear they have no ingredients from China....I didn't bother to ask because it seems to be such a rarity these days in dog and human food!


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## DaViking (Sep 27, 2011)

BearMurphy said:


> Thank you DaViking for answering my question. I didn't even see the Pro version on their website and would be more likely to recommend the regular adult version for the average dog owner because I don't like to go much above 30% protein in kibble. I'm also happy to hear they have no ingredients from China....I didn't bother to ask because it seems to be such a rarity these days in dog and human food!


Dr Tims and Horizon are both in a very small group that do not source pre-mixes from China. They will also publicly say where they source from. Horizon get their pre-mix from France, or was it Switzerland? Can't remember right now.


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## wolfsnaps88 (Jan 2, 2012)

So this Ellis guy only feeds kibble or does he add raw (or cooked) meat as well? I want...no I demand to see a kibble fed team go head to head with a raw fed team. Something tells me that sled dogs get both though.

Cooking things with sturdy plant cell walls makes sence. More nutrients become available. Cooking meat is not the same. Cooking meat takes away vitamins, which is why kibbles have them added.

Carbs do take longer to digest. If they move through as fast as animal proteins do, I do not see how their nutrition could be absorbed through a short digestive tract.


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## DaViking (Sep 27, 2011)

wolfsnaps88 said:


> So this Ellis guy only feeds kibble or does he add raw (or cooked) meat as well? I want...no I demand to see a kibble fed team go head to head with a raw fed team.


You won't see many raw fed teams, they do exist but isn't making much splash if that's what you are asking. The vast majority are on kibble with some raw or home cooked concoction or kibble only.


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## Losech (Jul 10, 2012)

Want to get an idea of what sleddogs are fed? Read through these forums to see:
SDC Talk! - Dog Food
SDC Talk! - Feeding
It varies a lot with the musher, the type of dogs, the type of racing, temperature, terrain, area, etc. From what I understand most are fed a mix like the one I described in an earlier post. But I could be wrong.


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## Sheltielover25 (Jan 18, 2011)

It's absurd to even suggest kibble and raw fed together won't cause issues!

Have you ever seen how much the pH increases when a dog eats a kibble meal compared to a raw meal? This causes the pepsin to denature and in return slows down digestion of protein. Also, since the normal acidity of their stomach is what makes it okay to eat RAW meat, this could cause issues in the realm too.

http://www.mountaindogfood.com/HealthCare/digestion/Digestion/Slide6.gif


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## Herzo (Feb 5, 2011)

I don't know and I'm not going to even pretend to know that much about it cause I don't. It just seems that you would think if they had to much problems there dogs wouldn't be able to work that well.

Just seems like they would not be on there game and those dogs are worked hard. I don't know I'm not going to mix them just in case. But I find it fascinating that they seem to get by with it.


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## monster'sdad (Jul 29, 2012)

Herzo said:


> I don't know and I'm not going to even pretend to know that much about it cause I don't. It just seems that you would think if they had to much problems there dogs wouldn't be able to work that well.
> 
> Just seems like they would not be on there game and those dogs are worked hard. I don't know I'm not going to mix them just in case. But I find it fascinating that they seem to get by with it.


Dogs are nature's garbage disposal when it comes to food. I see one dog in your photo looking very much like a hound. Anyone with hounds will tell you they can eat virtually anything and look and perform great. As a group, hounds are very natural canines so that doesn't surprise me.

Go to a UKC trial event someday and see for yourself. Picture perfect beagles, blue ticks, redbones, black and tans that eat food not fit for hogs. 

SportMix, which I like, is not even fed due to cost.

So, mixing fresh and kibble should not be a problem if done on a consistent basis.


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## Sheltielover25 (Jan 18, 2011)

monster'sdad said:


> Dogs are nature's garbage disposal when it comes to food. I see one dog in your photo looking very much like a hound. Anyone with hounds will tell you they can eat virtually anything and look and perform great. As a group, hounds are very natural canines so that doesn't surprise me.
> 
> Go to a UKC trial event someday and see for yourself. Picture perfect beagles, blue ticks, redbones, black and tans that eat food not fit for hogs.
> 
> ...


Picture perfect, eh? I'm pretty "picture perfect" in terms of muscle/weight, but does that mean I'm healthy on the inside? Silly,


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## Sheltielover25 (Jan 18, 2011)

You whole "athletic dogs" eat this theory really proves nothing. Most dogs competing are younger, it takes usually about 6-8 years for this poor quality food to catch up with them. Similar to a human usually feeling ill effects around 40 or so from poor diet. So show me how long these dogs lived and how they died and we'll talk.


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## monster'sdad (Jul 29, 2012)

Sheltielover25 said:


> You whole "athletic dogs" eat this theory really proves nothing. Most dogs competing are younger, it takes usually about 6-8 years for this poor quality food to catch up with them. Similar to a human usually feeling ill effects around 40 or so from poor diet. So show me how long these dogs lived and how they died and we'll talk.


Sure sure sure......


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## dr tim (Mar 27, 2011)

The Alaskn Huskies tend to be the healthiest dogs I have ever come across. They tend to live to 14-15 years of age and I rarely see any sort of cancer issues versus other breeds. As to poor diets the effects tend to start to show themselves nearly ovenight and more over time. They have huge metabolic needs and when you have a dog going at a high RPM little vibrations(poor nutrtion) are amplified very quickly. That is why I chose them as the model to fashion a proper diet after. If I can make a diet work with no issues in a car running at a high RPM,( the car being a sprint dog or an endurance dog), the benefits for a dog working at a lesser level are bona fide and obvious. t does not take years to see a poor diets effects at all. It is quick.

The oldest dog I saw finish the Iditarod, for example, was 12 and she ran the race 8 times and that year her team finished in 6th place. My two leaders were 10 years old when I finished and they looked great at the end.Truly amazing athletes.


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## monster'sdad (Jul 29, 2012)

wolfsnaps88 said:


> So this Ellis guy only feeds kibble or does he add raw (or cooked) meat as well? I want...no I demand to see a kibble fed team go head to head with a raw fed team. Something tells me that sled dogs get both though.
> 
> Cooking things with sturdy plant cell walls makes sence. More nutrients become available. Cooking meat is not the same. Cooking meat takes away vitamins, which is why kibbles have them added.
> 
> Carbs do take longer to digest. If they move through as fast as animal proteins do, I do not see how their nutrition could be absorbed through a short digestive tract.



The "short digestive tract" is just another myth propagated by the raw feeder misinformation machine. The truth is a dog's digestive tract is similar to other omnivores, particularly the size and proportion of the small intestine. Carbohydrates in kibble are virtually 100% assimilated.

As for putting a raw fed team against kibble or a combination, good luck with that. Every year the proportion of kibble rises and in shorter races, the teams eat performance kibbles with grain you can buy in any good pet store or feed store.

In hunting trials like NSTRA, NAVHDA or UKC events, you will never see a raw fed dog. 

I do think adding fresh meat is a good idea but its not a must with even heavily worked hunting dogs.

DaViking already commented on this, but it is pure fantasy to think that kibble isn't at least half the calories on the big pro teams. Probably more as much as 75% nowadays.


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## BeagleCountry (Jan 20, 2012)

monster'sdad said:


> Carbohydrates in kibble are virtually 100% assimilated.


Why is the feces from a raw fed dog so much smaller than that of a dog fed grain free or grain inclusive kibble? Isn't it the undigested carbs that increase the feces size and odor?


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## DaViking (Sep 27, 2011)

BeagleCountry said:


> Why is the feces from a raw fed dog so much smaller than that of a dog fed grain free or grain inclusive kibble? Isn't it the undigested carbs that increase the feces size and odor?


1) Here's a favorite quote from the raw section "User error" Feces should be small, and hard enough that when I step on it I should feel notable resistance and it should keep it's integrity during and after I step off. The difference should be fiber and moisture, not undigested starch. Now, every living creature poop, poop is waste, no way around it.
2) Tiny hard poop doesn't automatically translate into proper nutrition. I could easily replicate tiny hard raw poop by underfeeding a quality kibble if that was the point.
3) It's funny how many with a so called more "natural" approach to life tend to speak highly of newer "super premium" foods which are the worst offenders in terms of producing large moist poop/sub-par digestion. So, are crappy digestion ok as long as the kibble contains a lot of meats?


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## DaViking (Sep 27, 2011)

Sheltielover25 said:


> You whole "athletic dogs" eat this theory really proves nothing. Most dogs competing are younger, it takes usually about 6-8 years for this poor quality food to catch up with them. Similar to a human usually feeling ill effects around 40 or so from poor diet. So show me how long these dogs lived and how they died and we'll talk.


This only shows that your experience with dogs in varied situations and scenarios are limited.


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## lauren43 (Feb 6, 2011)

monster'sdad said:


> Dogs are nature's garbage disposal when it comes to food.


I will agree that in some ways this is true. But it doesn't hold true for all dogs. Some dogs do fantastic on Ol' Roy their entire lifes, some dogs show reaction to the food but their owners would never consider that their "issues" may be caused by the food. Now I know you will say there is no scientific proof, that only 10% of all allergies are food related. On the other hand some dogs do terrible on any food you feed them, so them being garbage disposals is irreverent, it doesn't work for all dogs, in fact I bet its safe to say that doesn't work for most dogs. I bet if you took an English Bulldog or a French Bulldog and fed them what you had in the cupboards...you would find yourself a very itch practically hairless dog. I know there is no scientific proof to back up that claim, but its pretty well known that those to breeds are prone to allergies.

I am not by any means saying that raw is the answer. Right now it works for my dog, but in my experience there is no kibble or raw program that works for every dog. No matter what you believe is best there will always be a dog out there that does not do well on it.



DaViking said:


> Raw will mix with whatever else is fed. The digesta will depend on factors like moisture, kibble size, density, shape, fiber mix and bile production. Transit times is a non issue. If a dog have upsets and/or vomiting it's not because of different rate of digestion.


Ok fine, transit times are irrelevant. To me mixing in raw with kibble should have positive effects and if who ever is mixing these can feed them in the same meal to their dogs with no ill effects more power to them. I can just about guarantee this again will not work for all dogs. While some dogs may have no issues eating both in the same meal but other dogs (certain non Alaskan dogs) like if you tried this with a Chihuahua may have serious upsets.



monster'sdad said:


> The "short digestive tract" is just another myth propagated by the raw feeder misinformation machine. The truth is a dog's digestive tract is similar to other omnivores, particularly the size and proportion of the small intestine. Carbohydrates in kibble are virtually 100% assimilated.


Ok this is a real laugh. From all the text I've looked at (and I'm talking anatomy text books, nothing raw related) dogs have a short digestive tract. Are you saying the innards of dogs have completely and utterly evolved and no longer look evolutionarily similar to their wolf cousins?? I would love to see proof of this from some sort of text somewhere. Heck I'd buy the book you found this information from.


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## monster'sdad (Jul 29, 2012)

DaViking said:


> 1) Here's a favorite quote from the raw section "User error" Feces should be small, and hard enough that when I step on it I should feel notable resistance and it should keep it's integrity during and after I step off. The difference should be fiber and moisture, not undigested starch. Now, every living creature poop, poop is waste, no way around it.
> 2) Tiny hard poop doesn't automatically translate into proper nutrition. I could easily replicate tiny hard raw poop by underfeeding a quality kibble if that was the point.
> 3) It's funny how many with a so called more "natural" approach to life tend to speak highly of newer "super premium" foods which are the worst offenders in terms of producing large moist poop/sub-par digestion. So, are crappy digestion ok as long as the kibble contains a lot of meats?


For many people it is ok, the owner's vanity comes first. All of the problems with the so called "better" foods get rationalized with words like "de-toxing" or phrases like "well you know that food is more nutrient dense and not every dog will do well on it"


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## monster'sdad (Jul 29, 2012)

lauren43 said:


> I will agree that in some ways this is true. But it doesn't hold true for all dogs. Some dogs do fantastic on Ol' Roy their entire lifes, some dogs show reaction to the food but their owners would never consider that their "issues" may be caused by the food. Now I know you will say there is no scientific proof, that only 10% of all allergies are food related. On the other hand some dogs do terrible on any food you feed them, so them being garbage disposals is irreverent, it doesn't work for all dogs, in fact I bet its safe to say that doesn't work for most dogs. I bet if you took an English Bulldog or a French Bulldog and fed them what you had in the cupboards...you would find yourself a very itch practically hairless dog. I know there is no scientific proof to back up that claim, but its pretty well known that those to breeds are prone to allergies.
> 
> I am not by any means saying that raw is the answer. Right now it works for my dog, but in my experience there is no kibble or raw program that works for every dog. No matter what you believe is best there will always be a dog out there that does not do well on it.
> 
> ...


You must be looking at raw feeding propaganda books. A dog's digestive tract has about the same ratio to body length/height as other other omnivores.

More buzz words and tooth fairy science.

The small intestine of a large breed dog is about 20 feet long. Laugh Laugh Laugh.


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## lauren43 (Feb 6, 2011)

Length is relative to the size of the species in question and length post mortem is much different from a live intestine. Dogs have short tracts they are not omnivores by any sense of the word. Sure dogs can digest some altered plant materials but not in the raw form like a true omnivore can. And no I'm talking textbooks not raw propaganda. I took comparative anatomy in college (unfortunately I sold the books) these books had NOTHING to do with raw.


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## wolfsnaps88 (Jan 2, 2012)

A true omnivore would have the means to crush plant matter ( flat molars) in order to absorb the maximum amount of nutrition.


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## Sheltielover25 (Jan 18, 2011)

Yes, please explain to us how an omnivore can only digest something if it's altered? I don't see most bears out there having fires and cooking their food....


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## Roo (Oct 17, 2010)

> The "short digestive tract" is just another myth propagated by the raw feeder misinformation machine. The truth is a dog's digestive tract is similar to other omnivores, particularly the size and proportion of the small intestine.


Info from Auburn University, College of Agriculture, dogs and cats digestive physiology, from their Animal Nutrition Handbook. . . 
http://www.ag.auburn.edu/~chibale/an02physiology.pdf

1. Classification of Various Digestive Systems?
A. Variations among the GI tracts of the common domestic animals are related to the type
of diets they consume & utilize.
B. Generally, animals are classified into groups based on their type of diet . . . with many
subgroups:
1) Herbivores - Animals that consume primarily plant materials.
2) Carnivores - Animals that eat other animals.
3) Omnivores - Animals that eat a combination of plant and animal matter.
C. Classifying animals based on their digestive physiology?
1) Nonruminant animals
a) Pigs - Nonruminant animals that are omnivorous, thus consume both plant and
animal matter.
b) Poultry - Nonruminants that are omnivorous, and they have a complex foregut
(three sections that replaces the normal stomach) and a relatively simple
intestinal tract.
c) Dogs and cats - Nonruminant animals that are carnivorous.
d) Horses and mules - Nonruminant animals, but they are herbivorous and have a
rather large and complex large intestine.
e) Rabbits - A nonruminant animal that is a herbivore with a complex large
intestine.

Mouth
1) Refers to seizing and conveying of food to the mouth.
2) Vary among different animals, but the lips, teeth, and tongue are the principal
prgans of this function.
3) The dog & cat often use their forelimbs to hold food, but it is passed into the mouth
largely by the movement of the head and jaw.
H. Dogs and cats:
1) Carnivores, such as dogs and cats, often swallow large chunks of meat with little
mastication.
2) The teeth are adapted to the tearing of muscle and bone, while the pointed molars
are adapted for the crushing bones and also mastication of food to a limited extent.
3) Convey fluids to the mouth by means of the tongue - The free mobile end of which
forms a ladle.

Salivary Glands
E. Dogs & cats:
1) Saliva of carnivores contains no enzyme.
2) Unlike horses, the salivary reflex in dogs (& humans) can be conditioned by the
sight of food!?
3) Salivary secretion has the special function of evaporative cooling - The parotid
gland of the dog under intense parasympathetic stimulation is capable of secreting
at 10 times the rate (per g of gland) in humans, thus, as effective as evaporation of
sweat in humans?

Esophagus
1) Made up of four layers - a) an outer connective tissue, b) a layer of muscle, c)
submucosa, and d) mucosa.
2) Dogs, cattle, and sheep - The muscular layer consists of only striated muscle fibers.

The central nervous system controls the contractions:
2) e.g. - In the dog, it takes about five seconds for food to move from the mouth to
the stomach.

Functions of the Stomach in Nonruminant Species
6. Dogs and Cats
A. Dog’s digestive tract in general - Perhaps,
typical of “carnivores!?”
1) See the figure - Available at: http://137.222.110.150/calnet/vetAB5/page2.htm:
2) Anatomy of digestive tract: [Currie, W. B. 1988. Structure and Function of
Domestic Animals. Butterworth, Boston]
a) The dog’s stomach seems to be typical of “carnivores.”
b) The most striking feature is the apparent simplicity of the gut in general:
(1) The small intestine is short and has a wide luminal diameter.
(2) Cecum is poorly developed, and colon is unremarkable - Seems like
elongated rectum!
(3) In view of the fecal mass passed by dogs, the anatomical structure of the
lower gut is quite consistent with its simple reservoir function.
B. The dog’s stomach:
1) A sac-like structure designed to store large volumes of food and begin the digestive
process.
2) In the interior surface, a series of folds called gastric folds, which help grind and
digest food.
3) The inner stomach lining secretes acids and enzymes to break food down as the
initial step in the digestive process.
4) Once eaten, most food leaves the stomach within 12 hr.

INTESTINAL SYSTEM
5. Dogs and Cats
A. See “Digestive Tract in General” described briefly in the section for stomach.
B. Small intestine:
1) A tube-like structure & the longest portion of the intestinal tract - About two and a
half times the animal's total body length.
2) In the dog - Duodenum (connected to the gall bladder & pancreas by the duct) is
bout 10” long in a 40-lb dog, jejunum (covered with villi & the main absorption
site) is the longest, and the shortest part is the ileum.
C. Large intestine:
1) In the dog - Basically connects the small intestine to the anus.
2) About 16” in length in a 40-lb dog.
3) Distinct parts: Cecum - a small, finger-like projection near the junction with the SI -
function unknown), and colon - longest & terminates just inside the anus to the final
portion of the LI, rectum. The terms “colon” & “large intestine” are commonly
used interchangeably
4) The primary function is to absorb water from the digesta/ingesta & the other
function being to store fecal matter.


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## lauren43 (Feb 6, 2011)

Thank you Roo, I was looking all over for something like that this morning but I couldn't find what I was looking for.


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## lauren43 (Feb 6, 2011)

Sheltielover25 said:


> Yes, please explain to us how an omnivore can only digest something if it's altered? I don't see most bears out there having fires and cooking their food....


Bears also have the dentition and the ability to move their jaw from side to side (if only slightly so) which further allows them to break down plant materials.


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## wolfsnaps88 (Jan 2, 2012)

Bears are a true omnivore. They have flat molars. They have the canines for ripping into flesh and flat molars fopr grinding plant matter. We humans are like this too. I don't think its so black and white though. Dogs CAN eat grain and plant matter as well as meat. So, if we were using a sliding scale, they would be omnivores but towards the carnivore spectrum whereas primates are more in the middle, slightly towards the herbivore spectrum.


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## lauren43 (Feb 6, 2011)

wolfsnaps88 said:


> Bears are a true omnivore. They have flat molars. They have the canines for ripping into flesh and flat molars fopr grinding plant matter. We humans are like this too. I don't think its so black and white though. Dogs CAN eat grain and plant matter as well as meat. So, if we were using a sliding scale, they would be omnivores but towards the carnivore spectrum whereas primates are more in the middle, slightly towards the herbivore spectrum.


Yes I agree that its not black and white, but dogs are more carnivore (less garbage disposal) than anything else. Many kibble manufacturers feed them as if they were between herbivore and omnivore (Assuming the scale goes carnivore on far left, omnivore in middle, and herbivore on the far right)..


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## DaViking (Sep 27, 2011)

Back on topic with the thread.
Here's a photo of Team Tsuga that is now picked up by Associated Press and is going around the world 










Some are starting to talk about Mike Ellis and his Horizon Legacy fed Siberians as a dark horse for a top finish. We'll see, it's beyond tough and he's a rookie.
Does anyone know of any other pro or semi-pro kennel/team that have broken free of tradition and made the switch to a grain free high protein food like Legacy?

GO Team Tsuga!


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## Unosmom (May 3, 2009)

pretty cool, I like horizon, but it's not sold anywhere locally and I was only able to purchase it online from petflow.com sometime ago.


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## InkedMarie (Sep 9, 2011)

Viking, that picture was in our paper, saw it on the news too when they interviewed him. I didn't realize I know him from a place I used to work, til I saw the interview!


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## DaViking (Sep 27, 2011)

Just a little update. Mike Ellis and his all Sibe team is struggling some in the "heat" the mushers are experiencing. Heat is no good for sibes. There might be some snow coming and that could be a slight advantage for Mike Ellis going forward.
My personal favorite, fellow Norwegian rookie Joar Ulsom is doing great and is right in the mix with some of the best in the world like Aaron Burmeister and Dallas Seavey. They are having a 24hr mandatory rest right now. Joar have yet to run his two fastest leaders up front. Lot's of strategies playing out and there are some 20 to 25 teams still in the mix for a top placement.

Here's a photo of Joar's Norwegian dogs en-route


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## monster'sdad (Jul 29, 2012)

Aaron and Dallas are both Dr. Tim's guys.


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## DaViking (Sep 27, 2011)

monster'sdad said:


> Aaron and Dallas are both Dr. Tim's guys.


I learned the other day that Michelle Phillips and Ed Hopkins of Tagish Lake Kennel is feeding Nutrisource. Michelle is doing really well atm too. Probably 30/20 Performance


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## meggels (May 30, 2010)

Woo! My friends father in law is in 2nd place  Sonny Lindner.


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## meggels (May 30, 2010)

I asked her what she feeds, and she said:

He feeds a combo of dynamite, red paw, dr Tim's and black wood. All the highest fat content. Sled dogs at work burn about 26,000 calories in a 24 hr period. Plus. They also get meat. Beef, beaver, reindeer, lamb and tripe. Lol gross. Towards the end when they reach the coast sonny will feed balls of reindeer fat straight as snacks to maintain weight after they've run 900 miles. Any dog who doesn't eat gets dropped. No question. It's imperative.


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## DaViking (Sep 27, 2011)

meggels said:


> Woo! My friends father in law is in 2nd place  Sonny Lindner.


Cool stuff!


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## meggels (May 30, 2010)

She also mentioned that the Dr. Tim's has a ton of sand in it, from the milling process?


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## dr tim (Mar 27, 2011)

Hey Meggels. I think you are joking. No sand in the food at all.

Sonny is a great guy, ran the race over 35 times and he is on our Team Momentum. He feeds Momentum(goes through 8-10 tons a year) plus the other meats you talk about. Sled dogs go through about 12000 calories a day, give or take some. And, yes, he was in second and first place for a time last night. Race keeps evolving quickly this year.

Chad is a great kid, too. We ran the Idit the same year and enjoyed his company when we had the chance. Busy lawyer I understand and living out east now.


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## meggels (May 30, 2010)

Not joking Dr. Tim :-/ She mentioned that there is about a tbsp of sand in the bottom of a bucket. 

"It's good for sled dogs. But tons of sand in it which is from the milling process. My mom won't feed it, she's old school. Lol."

"Lots...
Every bucket I've seen has about a tablespoon of it at the bottom."


Not trying to start any trouble here...and I don't know if maybe all the kibbles she mentioned are mixed together, and so maybe the sand is coming from something else?


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## monster'sdad (Jul 29, 2012)

There is no sand in the food. That is funny actually.


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## DaViking (Sep 27, 2011)

Sand? Will this hit the rumor and myth wire? "sand found in Dr. Tim's pet food" hehe  Kidding aside, are you sure what she is seeing isn't just fine grain crumbles at the bottom of the bag? It's the only thing I can think of. "It's good for sled dogs." I should think not


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## meggels (May 30, 2010)

i dunno lol :-X


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## monster'sdad (Jul 29, 2012)

meggels said:


> i dunno lol :-X



Did little man tighten up yet?


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## meggels (May 30, 2010)

monster'sdad said:


> Did little man tighten up yet?


He hasn't pooped since last night. I'll let ya know lol. He just had some more rice and a smidge of chicken, and he gets 1/2 a flagyl tablet morning and night...we'll see how things come out that end tonight lol.


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## meggels (May 30, 2010)

Just kidding, i guess he doesn't feel like pooping tonight.



I asked my friend for clarification and she said:

Why? Sand is used in crappy mills to clean the mill out in between millings bathe crappier the mill the more sand in the food. One mill will mill hundreds of diff feeds. It's why buying a food from a mill with better practices helps
He's a small biz so to save cash he would mill at a small mill. Makes sense.


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## DaViking (Sep 27, 2011)

meggels said:


> Just kidding, i guess he doesn't feel like pooping tonight.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Does not make sense at all. Sand in dog food is unheard of. But anyway, I'm sure Tim will address it.


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## meggels (May 30, 2010)

One more thing:

"So when you feed a big dog lot of dogs you soak the food in a bucket for about half hour. The sand goes to the bottom. So when you feed the last dog you can see all the sand..... 

Only one private mill in country. Dynamite owns it. Hence my usage of the product."



*shrug* I dunno. I'm not saying I agree or don't. It's just not a subject I know much about....


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## dr tim (Mar 27, 2011)

I believe whatever you are speaking of with regards to sand must arise from the water source. Points can suck up sand, for instance. So can wells. There is not sand in the food and for cleaning between runs it is water, then dog food that is wasted for a period of time to then assure your food is coming out. I have no clue who Dynamite is.
I have soaked the dry kibble regularly for years and have yet to find any sand at the bottom of the bucket. This sounds like their water system.


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## monster'sdad (Jul 29, 2012)

meggels said:


> Just kidding, i guess he doesn't feel like pooping tonight.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


That is a lot of nonsense. By the way, Dynamite is one of those marketing schemes like Amway, Herbalife, etc. It owned by a chain of lawn, feed and garden stores in Idaho. There isn't one bit of truth in your friend's statement. First off, do you know what sand would do to those expensive machines at any dog food company? Second, there are dozens of private "mills" in the US. so your friend is drinking the pyramid marketing KoolAid.

Dynamite does not makes its own food like your friend believes. Your friend is just being mislead by a Dynamite pyramid distributor, which has probably said that about many brands.


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## meggels (May 30, 2010)

monster'sdad said:


> That is a lot of nonsense. By the way, Dynamite is one of those marketing schemes like Amway, Herbalife, etc. It owned by a chain of lawn, feed and garden stores in Idaho. There isn't one bit of truth in your friend's statement. First off, do you know what sand would do to those expensive machines at any dog food company? Second, there are dozens of private "mills" in the US. so your friend is drinking the pyramid marketing KoolAid.
> 
> Dynamite does not makes its own food like your friend believes. Your friend is just being mislead by a Dynamite pyramid distributor, which has probably said that about many brands.


I have a large group of friends that swear by Dynamite products, and their high quality, and how "clean" they are. I haven't been able to bring myself to try their dog food, despite my friends raving about it. I just can't bring myself to order it lol. 

My friend said she's seen these mills though Monster's Dad. I dunno.

Tim, I'm glad you cleared it up. I honestly was pretty skeptical about her statement, especially after everything I've been hearing about your food, and Ohio Pet Foods in general also.

This is Dynamite, btw:

https://www.dynamitemarketing.com/

And the food:

https://www.dynamitemarketing.com/OrderCustom.asp?InvDispCatID=&InvDispSubCatID=22


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## monster'sdad (Jul 29, 2012)

Nah, there are no company owned plants. The parent company is Zamzow's in Idaho it is a feed store and lawn and garden chain. They also stick there name on some Diamond foods. 

Sand in the food is funny though. I guess Annamaet and all the rest that make food at Ohio Pet missed the sand.


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## InkedMarie (Sep 9, 2011)

Sand? I'm halfway through a large bag, haven't seen anything resembling sand yet.


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## meggels (May 30, 2010)

monster'sdad said:


> Nah, there are no company owned plants. The parent company is Zamzow's in Idaho it is a feed store and lawn and garden chain. They also stick there name on some Diamond foods.
> 
> Sand in the food is funny though. I guess Annamaet and all the rest that make food at Ohio Pet missed the sand.


Wasn't just Dr. Tim's. I believe she meant *all* the foods she mentioned produced the sand lol.


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## DaViking (Sep 27, 2011)

Holy crap (can I say crap here?) Joar Ulsom just pulled into the Anvik checkpoint in forth place. His dogs are blasting the trail. What's in the soup?


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## NewfieAussie (Feb 19, 2013)

There is no clue in the picture that I could see. Do they keep their secret concoction ingredients hidden in those bags and packs? He has steadily gained, last night he was tenth. I wish I was there.


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## Herzo (Feb 5, 2011)

Some heet, it keeps water out of there tanks


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## DaViking (Sep 27, 2011)

Herzo said:


> Some heet, it keeps water out of there tanks


I'm getting old, maybe I should hit the heet in not too long


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## DaViking (Sep 27, 2011)

Update; Joar is doing great and is currently in 5th place!

The following smells like running your dogs over their natural limit. Wouldn't be surprised if he pays even more.

"Jake [Berkowitz] has dropped a few places and Joar Ulsom sure took advantage of that, now sitting in an amazing 5th place. He also rested less than 4 hrs and thus is aggressively staying in the front.

The rumor mill has it, that Jake [Berkowitz] boasted in Kaltag, how much his dogs ate, like 30 lbs of Kibble and 20 lbs of meat. That is 2 lbs of kibble a dog and more than 1 lb of meat per dogs. THAT is a lot and the diarrhea he was experiencing on the run, might have something to do with it."

Pushing beyond their natural limit is not good and trying to make up for it by feeding substantially more at a stop is playing with fire.


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## DaViking (Sep 27, 2011)

NewfieAussie said:


> There is no clue in the picture that I could see. Do they keep their secret concoction ingredients hidden in those bags and packs? He has steadily gained, last night he was tenth. I wish I was there.


I don't know what kibble he is feeding. He's been on this side of the pond for a while so it's not one of the more popular Scandinavian musher brands like Kobuk or Appetitt. Might be Eukanuba Performance 30/20 since it's also popular among Scandinavian mushers and is readily available everywhere. Keep in mind that most mushers feed home-cooked and/or raw with the kibble so they have different needs and requirements for a kibble. Kibble is the base for them, average Jane and Joe only feed one type of food.


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## Herzo (Feb 5, 2011)

That's sounds like someone that cares more about winning that taking care of his dogs......not good. Can't imagine if they have diarrhea that they can keep up that pace. Poor dogs.


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