# Shocked by Vet's Response Toward the Raw Diet



## happygirlx3 (Feb 22, 2010)

On another forum a young veterinarian opened himself up for questioning about anything concerning veterinary medicine including diseases, diet, how to become a veterinarian, etc. It is an "Ask me anything" thread. So of course, I asked him how he felt about yearly vaccinations and the raw diet. Here is his reply:

_This post is just wrought with material I disagree with and with baiting statements, and I am sorry that our views won't coincide. Your statement about "falling" for what is taught in vet school is in and of itself a knock against me and what I was taught, as if I was purposefully being duped in vet school to follow the masses.
I wholeheartedley disagree with R.A.W. diets... my reasons range from health concerns for the animal (Salmonella and other bacterial contamination, bony foreign bodies, etc.) to the human health concerns. I for one certainly don't want an animal licking me that has recently consumed raw hamburger or bones. I will NEVER force a particular owner to follow my advice, and if you want to continue the R.A.W. diet go ahead, but I disagree with it. And I disagree and offended by your implication that I was duped and "fell for" certain corporate sponsored information in school, as well as the implication that I don't keep up with current medical knowledge. R.A.W. diet is NOT current medical knowledge, it is just an alternative.
And your SHOCKED about yearly vaccines? Why? There are only so many studies that show vaccines lasting 3 years. The 5 in 1 you mention (Leptospirosis, by the way) is SPECIFICALLY one of the vaccines that has been shown to NOT have a duration of immunity over 1 year, so it is recommended yearly. Excuse us veterinarians for trying to best protect your pet. The distemper/parvo vaccine, as well as the rabies vaccine, has been shown to last 3 years, so many vets recommend it as such (including me).
If I seem bitter, I AM. It is an attitude like, this, that all we vets are out to do is scheme and trick and take your money, that upsets me about how some of the public chooses to view us._


I was very disappointed in both his attitude and his opinion on the matter. His view seems to be very common in my area, however. hwell:


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## ciaBrysh (Dec 16, 2011)

It's not just common in your area, trust me lol. Just keep your head up and ignore it. That's probably the best you can do since most vets will not take to education unless you show them...and even then they will probably be skeptical lol


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## Scarlett_O' (May 19, 2011)

Yup...sadly that is how most vets feel...heck that is what MOST of the people in the world feel!!! :frown:


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## doggoblin (Jun 6, 2011)

I think to be fair you need to also post the initial question posed by yourself. That way we can take the response in context.


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## happygirlx3 (Feb 22, 2010)

Ah sorry! Here was my question: 

I've been feeding my dogs and cats prey model raw for several years as well as giving limited vaccinations (only rabies every 3 years as required by law). Over the years I have my friends and family do the same and noticed remarkably healthier pets. I am shocked that many veterinarians still encourage yearly vaccinations, especially the 5 in 1 or 7 in 1. My question is this:

How do you feel about the raw diet and yearly vaccinations? Also, do you believe in doing your own research outside of veterinary school?


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## wolfsnaps88 (Jan 2, 2012)

I switched vets because of not only the response I got but the attitude behind it when I told a vet i fed raw. She basically laughed in my face and said Eukanuba is a great food that she feeds and I should switch to that. I was actually shocked she didn't try to sell me Science Diet.

She made me feel bad and like I was hurting my dogs. Vets do provide a medical service but they need to have great CUSTOMER service as well as medical knowledge to keep me a client. I mean, she made me feel BAD. 

I think vets know a LOT about their profession and I don't think all of them are intentionally trying to dupe us. I think more research is needed to prove what we all already know. This way, there won't be any controversy. I mean, they spend enough on researching kibble. What more do they need to know about THAT stuff? Why isn't there more testing on raw? The last kind of raw feeding trial was a long time ago and someone needs to step up and do another one!


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## lucky (Jan 8, 2011)

Most people/vets have the same opinion here too


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## NewYorkDogue (Sep 27, 2011)

happygirlx3 said:


> Ah sorry! Here was my question:
> 
> I've been feeding my dogs and cats prey model raw for several years as well as giving limited vaccinations (only rabies every 3 years as required by law). Over the years I have my friends and family do the same and noticed remarkably healthier pets. I am shocked that many veterinarians still encourage yearly vaccinations, especially the 5 in 1 or 7 in 1. My question is this:
> 
> How do you feel about the raw diet and yearly vaccinations? Also, do you believe in doing your own research outside of veterinary school?


Fair enough question. His response seemed a bit defensive to me... No, actually very defensive. Sounds like he's not budging, either. 

Sad.


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## Chocx2 (Nov 16, 2009)

I would like to put in my thoughts on this.

My friend, she is a vet, three years ago I told her I was switching to raw, she laughed at me and all of her staff did also, said my dog would get bacteria. Now, there is multiple dogs/friends she knows that feed raw also.

So over the short three years her view has evolved. She now tells people that raw diets are ok for some pets but not all. She prefers cooking now. And she herself changed the way she now feeds her pack. Its a no grain food???? No more Science Diet even though she got it for free????? Said that the pro trainers feed the new food???? Even if I didn't put a thought in her head I think I opened her mind to different thinking.

Just my thought, one vet at a time


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## CorgiPaws (Mar 31, 2009)

While I don't excuse the ignorance I do think it would perhaps be frustrating to have gone to school all that time, especially for true animal lovers, only to be seemingly discredited by so many people. I do think most vets have a genuine interest in animal welfare and health, and I do honestly believe that they know best. After all, they are professionally trained!! 
One thing I've had to come to terms with is that there is almost always "evidence" on both sides of debates, especially scientific ones, as ironic as that is, and two peoples devoted research can lead them to two very different conclusions.
My passions all seem to be controversial ones: canine and feline nutrition, natural childbirth, parenting, and dog breeding. I lurk and or participate in forums pertaining to All of the above. 

Just remember that as sure as you are that a raw diet and limited vaccines is the best damn thing you can possibly do, they are certain it will harm your animal. I don't think that most vets are out to drain your bank account and then laugh their way to the Bahamas about how they totally robbed you of your pets health. I think for the most part, professionals mean well, but are perhaps misguided, or led down a totally different path of research than some of us are. (except perhaps dr. Lisa on the doctors. She just may be out for blood.... But thats another topic for another day) 

I hope this makes sense. I'm a bit loopy at the moment from meds. Lol


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## GatsbysMom (Jan 15, 2012)

I have yet to find a vet here who is actually educated about anything aside from their own narrow practice. I've always fed my dog high-quality foods (currently Taste of the Wild) and my vet has tried to convert me to Science Diet (which he sells). I highly doubt yearly vaccines are actually necessary, but I have to get them for my dog anyway since his daycare and boarding facility is pretty strict about being up to date on shots.

The only qualm I'd have about the population at large feeding their dogs is that I don't believe most people (outside of this forum) have the knowledge, time, or patience to do it properly. I know I don't, which is why my dog's primary diet is dry food. I'd rather have people who don't know what they're doing feed their dog a high quality dog kibble than raw.


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## shellbell (Sep 24, 2011)

Why is he calling it "R.A.W."?

Anyways, I feel lucky that my conventional vet just doesn't say anything one way or the other about raw. He just kind of nods and smiles, and does check the box that says "excellent" next to diet on the physical exam sheet I get. Now the holistic vet Tux sees, she told me that raw is the "gold standard" of dog food....


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## Unosmom (May 3, 2009)

When I read the response first, I thought that you were really offensive/pushy in your inquisitions. But reading your original question, all I can say is that vet is seriously insecure and very defensive in his response, no need for all that hostility. I dont think I've ever seen someone in that profession get so bent out of shape all because of a simple question. Me thinks more and more people are taking a stance for their pets health and choosing alternative options for diet and preventative care. Good for them, and vets need to chill out.


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## MollyWoppy (Mar 19, 2010)

Unfortunately, it seems to be the standard vet perception of a raw diet. I guess they don't know any better, especially if they haven't had the incentive to do the research. I guess all we can do is hope that they will have more and more patients asking about raw diets and realise that there is a steady movement towards natural feeding and they need to educate themselves about it.
Mol and Wind have an appointment at our vet in 10 days. When I made their appointments, I bit the bullet and told the vet tech I'll be getting blood tests and urinalysis done as I feed raw and I want to make sure all their values are ok and if I needed to tweak their diet in any way. The silence and chill down the phone line was quite noticeable actually. So, I'm psyching myself up for a not so happy encounter.


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## Scarlett_O' (May 19, 2011)

MollyWoppy said:


> Unfortunately, it seems to be the standard vet perception of a raw diet. I guess they don't know any better, especially if they haven't had the incentive to do the research.
> Mol and Wind have an appointment at our vet in 10 days. When I made their appointments, I bit the bullet and told the vet tech I'll be getting blood tests and urinalysis done as I feed raw and I want to make sure all their values are ok and if I needed to tweak their diet in any way. The silence and chill down the phone line was quite noticeable actually. So, I'm psyching myself up for a not so happy encounter.


May I ask why you bother to say anything??

I like a "dont ask, dont tell" policy with my vet/pet nutrition!!LOL :lol:


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## MollyWoppy (Mar 19, 2010)

Oh boy, believe me, I've had the don't ask, don't tell policy for the past couple of years. I HATE arguing, life is too short. But, this time, there's something wrong with me, I'm getting spunky, but maybe because I've had so much positive feedback about Mol and the way she looks which makes me prepared to go in and do battle. I really love him as our vet, he's a fantastic doctor, but I really want him to support us and if I can be the first one to maybe make him take a step back and go, ok, she's feeding a diet I do not approve of, but she is being responsible with blood tests and urinalysis to make sure the diet is complete. Maybe once he sees the results over a couple of years, he might, change his mind?? I mean, once he sees the hard facts, he has to, right?
But, on the other hand, in a couple of weeks, I just might be on the hunt for a new vet....


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## CorgiPaws (Mar 31, 2009)

Again, not making excuses for the vet.... But sometimes when you've heard something over and over, and are constantly having to defend something, it's really easy to jump on the defense. I know I personally tend to do this with a few subjects that I know I've come across the same way as this vet probably did. 

My favorite vets are the ones that recognize and acknowledge they are not trained in nutrition. I really like my vet- for what I use him for. He's great for health testing. He did an awesome job on zailey's surgery. He was the only vet in 15 miles to have an accurate diagnosis on Grissom. But nutrition advice? That's not what he's trained in, and that's not what he does. 

I think the issue is people expecting their vets to be the one and only ultimate source of information on all things dog. (not saying people here do, but the general public) and that's how so many people end up misguided on the topic. Anyone buying Science Diet isn't doing so because they are trying to get cheap food, it's because of the commercials, or more commonly- someone they trust recommended it. It's actually quite expensive.


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## Scarlett_O' (May 19, 2011)

MollyWoppy said:


> Oh boy, believe me, I've had the don't ask, don't tell policy for the past couple of years. I HATE arguing, life is too short. But, this time, there's something wrong with me, I'm getting spunky, but maybe because I've had so much positive feedback about Mol and the way she looks which makes me prepared to go in and do battle. I really love him as our vet, he's a fantastic doctor, but I really want him to support us and if I can be the first one to maybe make him take a step back and go, ok, she's feeding a diet I do not approve of, but she is being responsible with blood tests and urinalysis to make sure the diet is complete. Maybe once he sees the results over a couple of years, he might, change his mind?? I mean, once he sees the hard facts, he has to, right?
> But, on the other hand, in a couple of weeks, I just might be on the hunt for a new vet....


HAHA, that is what I did with the first 2 that Rhett and I went and saw....then after the 2nd one I stopped caring what they though, and dont need what they think is write being shoved down my throat in a "Im better then you" manner!:wink:

Our current vet never even asked what Rhett or Keeva are or were going to be eating....if they ever ask Ill say something.....but other then them asking they will never know!!LOL :tongue:


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

my vet and his associates are all anti raw. 

mine and i do talk about raw feeding because we must do so for the sake of patient care.

just as my doctor needs to know what i eat or don't eat for the sake of getting nutrients, my vet needs to know the same about my dogs, his patients.

and, if he neglects to include nutrition, i will educate him. whether he believes in it or likes it...it is part of the profile....so i have told my doctors on many occasions things i am sure they didn't want to hear and i would counter anything they had to say with the notion that it 

matters not what they believe in, it matters what they see, smell, hear, touch, test.....what are the objective findings....

it's my choice to feed what i feed and their ignorance to not continue their education and break from the bonds that bind them....

they are not alone. more people than not believe that kibble is pure and raw is wrought with salmonella, when we all know it's the other way around....

on the other hand, after two years, my vets cannot ignore what they see, especially in my older dog who was, i'm sure bred badly.....even the pug boy....whose beginnings were not good...

they cannot deny the symptoms of health.....if it changes their mind or at least, makes them take notice, cool.

but no shot will be given without an explanation....and the diet my dogs eat will always be shoved under their noses because they are obligated to give my dog whole treatment, not just the parts they believe in.

if they get defensive, then i tell them to get off it. defensiveness has nothing to do with the treatment of my dogs.....


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## MollyWoppy (Mar 19, 2010)

But re, they respect you because you are a Dr. They don't respect me, they think I'm a tree hugging, Jesus shoe wearing, long haired hippy!


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## MollyWoppy (Mar 19, 2010)

Scarlett_O' said:


> HAHA, that is what I did with the first 2 that Rhett and I went and saw....then after the 2nd one I stopped caring what they though, and dont need what they think is write being shoved down my throat in a "Im better then you" manner!:wink:


Oh $hit, I might be losing my resolve!


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## Scarlett_O' (May 19, 2011)

MollyWoppy said:


> Oh $hit, I might be losing my resolve!


HAHHAA, maybe...if they ask why your wanting the testing being done just say "for my own peace of mind!" and leave it at that and hope she doesnt remember when you mentioned raw!!:tongue:


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

MollyWoppy said:


> But re, they respect you because you are a Dr. They don't respect me, they think I'm a tree hugging, Jesus shoe wearing, long haired hippy!


no they don't, penny.......they know i had the same nutrition courses they did, except mine were supported by the american dairy farmers, farmers, drug companies, same deal, different companies...
same three credit course.

what they don't like is that i continued my education and they hate that i let them know i did and i let them know they did not.

i pay these people a lot of money....well, i used to....and if you're going to diagnose my dog, then you damned well better take into consideration the fact they are fed raw.....

and raw fed dogs rarely get small intestinal bowel disorder, so look for something else. don't give me the same canned answers you would give to a kibble dog...

i remind them of that much of the time. i ask too many questions....i challenge them. you think they like it?

i do it with my doctors...

certainly, they didn't fall out of heaven knowing every thing there is to know about the human condition......

i will do no less for my dogs than i have had to do for me....

as you do for your honey...

we have to be their advocates....and our own...who else if not us.


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## MollyWoppy (Mar 19, 2010)

You know what? You are damn right Re. I have no qualms whatsoever in challenging Eddie's Dr's over things I think they may have got wrong, or things I think they are not being thorough enough about, and yet, here I am quaking in my boots about doing the same thing for my pets. I need to sit down and take a good long hard look at myself. I'm more fearful of a vet than an endowed professors's and a chairman of neurosurgery at a university research centre. Good God, that put's it in perspective.


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## BoxerParty (Nov 9, 2011)

Scarlett_O' said:


> May I ask why you bother to say anything??
> 
> I like a "dont ask, dont tell" policy with my vet/pet nutrition!!LOL :lol:



This is my policy, too! Malcolm lost a bunch of weight over Xmas (about 8 lbs - former weight was 53 lbs, so that is a lot), so the vet asked me what he was eating. I told him HK, because technically the noodles WERE eating HK over Xmas. He told me that it was possible the diet "wasn't balanced", and proposed I feed Medi-Cal i/d instead. This reinforced my belief that he should NEVER hear that my dogs eat raw...he can't handle the truth!


Regarding the OP - I'm sure you didn't intend to be argumentative (and I certainly agree with you on all points). HOWEVER, the way you phrased your question wasn't completely neutral, so may have provoked a stronger response in an already defensive vet. (I didn't see the other questions asked in the course of the chat, but if others had already put this person on the defense, (s)he may have reacted more intensely that would otherwise have been the case). It would have been interesting to see what the response would have been to a completely neutral question (e.g. "What are your thoughts about the merits and drawbacks of a prey model raw diet? Do you believe that yearly vaccination is essential?). As always, YMMV.


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

MollyWoppy said:


> You know what? You are damn right Re. I have no qualms whatsoever in challenging Eddie's Dr's over things I think they may have got wrong, or things I think they are not being thorough enough about, and yet, here I am quaking in my boots about doing the same thing for my pets. I need to sit down and take a good long hard look at myself. I'm more fearful of a vet than an endowed professors's and a chairman of neurosurgery at a university research centre. Good God, that put's it in perspective.


i can just see you with eddie's docs.....let them fear the tree hugger hippie girl.....and btw, i was a hippie too. 

i've had my own share of fights with doctors and it mattered not that i am one, since i'm not a real doctor.....no doc in in his right mind thinks shrinks are real docs.....even though we go to school forever and our residencies are forever....

screw them.

i can read. what i've forgotten i can still find on the information highway....and i look everything up.

i might not know about dogs the way their vet does...but i didn't know everything there is to know about polymyositis but when i got diagnosed with it, you'd best believe i now know all there is to know....about this degenerative disease that has me in its clutches.

when it comes to my dogs, i did not stop until i found a way to put fur back on bubba. 

i don't let my vets give malia or bubba shots anymore and i'll find a way to get out of further vaccinations.....as i have for the past several years...

now that i know more about rabies vax, i'll get out of that one, too....

i know you penny...you have that sharp no nonsense way i can't help but love about you...your pets are as important to you as anything in this world....fight for them....as only you can...as they deserve.....

how i wish my vets were pro raw for then all of my dogs would have been transitioned long before now.


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## Sprocket (Oct 4, 2011)

Anyone know why he is calling it R.A.W.?


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## Scarlett_O' (May 19, 2011)

Sprocket said:


> Anyone know why he is calling it R.A.W.?


HAHA, I dunno!!!:tongue:

(Im GUESSING because of B.A.R.F. meaning something he thinks that raw does too????)


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## NewYorkDogue (Sep 27, 2011)

magicre said:


> we have to be their advocates....and our own...who else if not us.


This. I sometimes feel the significance of this blessed burden of being my dog's primary advocate. It pushes other (really) insignificant things in life out of the way...

His life and health is such a priority... and I wouldn't have it any other way.


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

Sprocket said:


> Anyone know why he is calling it R.A.W.?


maybe he thinks we are a C.U.L.T.


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## sozzle (May 18, 2011)

Well I would imagine most vets here too will have the same thoughts on raw....which I am going to find out soon as I am going to take my dog for a check up next month as we would have had him 12 months. Unfortunately his teeth are not very good despite the raw diet but that is quite common in greyhounds anyway.
I just really wish Dr Lyn Thomson (Vet) of Raw Essentials was nearer to me as she advocates so strongly for a species appropriate raw diet for cats and dogs that she has opened up 3 shops in the Auckland area selling only NZ sourced meats such as: rabbit, hare, venison, lamb, veal, beef, opposum, duck, turkey, ostrich, alpaca, wallaby, fish, tripe etc. She has also given me advice over the internet at no charge when I was starting my dog on raw. She recently featured on 'Fair Go' a weekly consumer protection type of programme whereby a client's dog was put onto a raw diet to help it's medical condition and her pet insurance wouldn't pay for the consultation saying it was 'alternative', so she went on air saying first and foremost that she was a vet and in her opinion this was the best treatment for the dog (who improved greatly) and feeding a dog raw was NOT alternative. The insurance company paid up, she got some advertising and I was chuffed to bits as it was on prime time TV.


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## sozzle (May 18, 2011)

magicre said:


> maybe he thinks we are a C.U.L.T.


We are aren't we? come over to the dark side with us and feed raw.


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## BoxerParty (Nov 9, 2011)

magicre said:


> maybe he thinks we are a C.U.L.T.


(Some) Characteristics of a cult*:

Charismatic leader? Check: http://www.rawmeatybones.com/Dr-Lonsdale-biography.pdf (see also: our fearless leaders DaneMama, CorgiPaws, and others) :heh:

Excessively zealous and unquestioning commitment to belief system/ideology, and belief that this is the Truth? Check. :heh:

Us-versus-them mentality (which can cause conflict with "outsiders")? Check - see this thread and any other about responses of "kibble feeders" to the PMR way :heh:

Group is preoccupied with bringing in new members? Check (see all threads about "new recruits") :heh:

Use of peer pressure or persuasion to influence/control member behaviour? Check (see all advice threads) :heh:

Members are required to spend an inordinate amount of time engaged in activities related to the group? Check (see, as evidence, the amount of time I spend searching the internet for sales on meat ) :heh:

True Believers can see no life outside the group/without the group's belief system? Check. How many of you would go back to feeding whatever it is your dogs ate before?

:heh: eace: 

*NB: I mean this as a joke, people. Don't freak out.


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## Dude and Bucks Mamma (May 14, 2011)

Well... that shows that was indeed thoroughly duped by the dog food companies who taught him his nutrition knowledge...


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## happygirlx3 (Feb 22, 2010)

Thanks everyone for taking the time to reply! I definitely should have worded my questions differently, but the way the vet was answering the other questions made it seem like he was pretty open-minded. I was quite surprised by his defensive response. However, I understand what CorgiPaws said about him being defensive toward to subject. I was really just looking for a civil answer like, "I don't feel comfortable with feeding raw because.... but it's great that your dog is doing well on it" or "I believe in yearly vaccinations because...." Wasn't trying to pick a fight or anything, just curious at his opinion, especially because he was young (28).

I'm lucky I've found a vet who although doesn't feed his dogs raw, he's interested in how I feed and supportive of my choices. He always takes the time to listen to me and does research on his own to help back me up. Do you think subjects like these will become less controversial in the future, or more? I'm always hoping that feeding raw and limiting vaccinations will become more popular, but maybe I'm wrong.


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## CorgiPaws (Mar 31, 2009)

I think the consumer controls the market, and the trend has been dogs being more and more a family member in recent years. I do think that people are becoming more aware of what they feed, and big box stores like petco have taken notice, and that speaks volumes. While I would never say animals getting hurt is a good thing, I do think the tragic 2007 recalls opened a lot of pet owners eyes to the pet food industry, and it's only a matter of time before it happens again. 
As for vaccines, I'm not sure. I know the no-vax/delayed vax/limited vax community is on the rise for people tho, so there's hope!


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## DaneMama (Jun 27, 2008)

As far as disclosing whether you feed raw to your vet or not...I think its irresponsible to NOT tell them. For one, nutrition plays a HUGE impact on health. Two, WE as raw feeders need to be confident and stand up for ourselves and the way we feed our dogs. Non raw feeders aren't going to do it....so we need to! The sheer amount of negative misinformation about raw feeding is WAY more abundant than the good things that are said and known about raw to the average person. The only way this is going to change is to stand up for it. 

Stop this "don't ask, don't tell" BS and just say it. If they don't like it so what?! Either find a new one or don't let it get in the middle of your relationship with your vet. Stand your ground. 

And yes....to those of you who didn't realize that raw feeding is a cult.....well.....it is......and I'm your fearless leader. Hey, at least I'm not asking you to drink coolaid out in the woods!!! :wink: :biggrin:


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

CorgiPaws said:


> I think the consumer controls the market, and the trend has been dogs being more and more a family member in recent years. I do think that people are becoming more aware of what they feed, and big box stores like petco have taken notice, and that speaks volumes. While I would never say animals getting hurt is a good thing, I do think the tragic 2007 recalls opened a lot of pet owners eyes to the pet food industry, and it's only a matter of time before it happens again.
> As for vaccines, I'm not sure. I know the no-vax/delayed vax/limited vax community is on the rise for people tho, so there's hope!


i agree.....

a few years ago, you wouldn't have seen 'fresh pet' by nestle, i think, in the refrigerated section of a grocery store.

this cult is getting larger and larger, one dog at a time....and i stand by what i said and natalie says below....no more don't ask don't tell. we're paying them.


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## BoxerParty (Nov 9, 2011)

DaneMama said:


> Hey, at least I'm not asking you to drink coolaid out in the woods!!! :wink: :biggrin:



Nope, you're just making much more onerous demands: that we "confess" to our vets and act as champions of The Way. :wink: 

Also, if you DID insist that we all head out to the woods and drink KoolAid, we'd probably do it. (Just saying). :biggrin:


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## CorgiPaws (Mar 31, 2009)

BoxerParty said:


> Nope, you're just making much more onerous demands: that we "confess" to our vets and act as champions of The Way. :wink:
> 
> Also, if you DID insist that we all head out to the woods and drink KoolAid, we'd probably do it. (Just saying). :biggrin:


And perhaps while we are in the woods, we can clean and package some game meat? I mean, might as well be productive on our cultish endeavors right?


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## eternalstudent (Jul 22, 2010)

I like this thread (not because of how it started but what it has become).

First I will say I have a very good rapport with my vet. Firstly I choose my vet because he was not only a vet, he is also a canine behaviorist well know and very well respected on the east coast of scotland. Second when I first spoke to him one of the things he put into my notes was that I was a Dr. and a Medical student, and that I would be open to read additional material on any procedure or vaccine that was required by my pup.

We did indeed have a hick-up to do with raw feeding, and a slightly tense stand off etc etc etc. On the next visit he explained why he disagreed with it and we had a long talk. Thankfully he had reasons not some supplied knowledge.

So yes talking is the most important thing we can do, not hide away. If we can explain what we feed, how much we feed, proportions and the reasons why; then the vets (so long as the still have the brain they had when they started school) have no choice but to accept. We have healthy dogs, no two ways about it .

In defense of the vet, I can understand why he answered the way he did (or at least I think I can). He has just been through school - which is going to have cost him a fair amount - been surrounded by like minded individuals, and then thrust upon the world. When someone he considers non-educated essentially challenges his teachings he goes into defense mode. I see it all the time with my colleagues and had a running battle with my SO over aspects of the Hospital system which I only won as she found out the hard way. But to put it simply I was saying things which went against the teaching, and as I had no teaching - How could I be correct.

In no way does it make it right that he replied the way he did, and it is a shame that he will probably keep that attitude for life, but hopefully we can still manage to change a few.

And

If we are really lucky get some of those vets into our C.U.L.T. )


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## doggoblin (Jun 6, 2011)

Unosmom said:


> When I read the response first, I thought that you were really offensive/pushy in your inquisitions. But reading your original question, all I can say is that vet is seriously insecure and very defensive in his response, no need for all that hostility. I dont think I've ever seen someone in that profession get so bent out of shape all because of a simple question. Me thinks more and more people are taking a stance for their pets health and choosing alternative options for diet and preventative care. Good for them, and vets need to chill out.


About the sum of my thinking, hence why I thought seeing the question was important.

Out vets know our dogs are on raw. Eyebrows were raised but no comments yet. The dogs certainly do not go to the vets as often and my wife is the sort where the dogs go for the slightest thing. I do know we are not the only raw feeders going there though (at least one other is a BARFer). If they do ever really complain I'll put together a binder of research material to give them.

If vets want to change my mind they would have to show problems which can occur. WE all know the official line but how many problems to vets actually encounter? How many raw bones as opposed to cooked for instance and do they differentiate between the two? When talking to people about raw and asking for bad experiences they are few and far between. Asking why people stopped raw feeding it's normally problems with transition and lack of confidence to start. In fact all too often I've heard elements of doubt cause people to stop due to vets warnings. This is one of the reasons I ask people to really research to begin with. I actually miss the fact that the second chance ranch anti raw site is down. It was great being able to point people to it and then get them to read and understand the rebuttals out there. They were then far more confident when they were challenged.


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## barneysmom2510 (Oct 12, 2011)

I have one holistic vet that promotes raw but I also use a hospital down the street and they do not promote raw. I like having a vet close in case of emergency. I saw a young new vet to their practice last week. I of course mentioned the fact that I fed Barney raw kind of as a side comment. I was quite surprised she did not respond negatively but we did not really get into it. I was also surprised that the woman at the desk reminded me not to feed kibble and raw together because how raw is digested more quickly. I was pretty floored because this is a very traditional vets office and we totally disagree on vaccines flea stuff everything but I know they could save my dog's life in an emergency. Sometimes discussing a dog's diet is like talking politics it can get quite heated depending on who you are talking too.


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## Liz (Sep 27, 2010)

I agree with Dane Mamma. We have to stand up for ourselves and our dogs. Why should we feel ashamed or nervous about feeding our dogs an appropriate diet? It just shows how indoctrinated we all are. I went through this with my non vaccinated children also. Facts are my kids and my dogs are in the best of health, rarely ill, have great immune systems and radiate health, positive attitudes, and I for one am ecstatic over my choices. If my doctor or vet is too narrow minded to discuss and sometimes agree to disagree I will take my business elsewhere. No more hiding for me - not since I had my kids. I think people who feed their dogs an inappropriate diet should be ashamed, I am not.


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

Liz said:


> I agree with Dane Mamma. We have to stand up for ourselves and our dogs. Why should we feel ashamed or nervous about feeding our dogs an appropriate diet? It just shows how indoctrinated we all are. I went through this with my non vaccinated children also. Facts are my kids and my dogs are in the best of health, rarely ill, have great immune systems and radiate health, positive attitudes, and I for one am ecstatic over my choices. If my doctor or vet is too narrow minded to discuss and sometimes agree to disagree I will take my business elsewhere. No more hiding for me - not since I had my kids. I think people who feed their dogs an inappropriate diet should be ashamed, I am not.


agreed.

if nothing else, the more vets see raw fed dogs and their conditions and healthy dispositions, the less they can argue when they go to their conferences.

believe me, if they are anything like shrinks, they will discuss all of the idiocies they think we are doing....BUT....if enough vets are told about raw fed dogs and then shown raw fed dogs and see they are a picture of health for the most part....

at some point, they will start to fall like dominoes...one at a time....even my vet can't argue with what he sees...he just thinks i'm conscientious where others would not be.......but it's a start in getting him first, to tolerate, then to accept...

and maybe one day, to promote.


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## Chocx2 (Nov 16, 2009)

I feel kinda like I have a secret or a cult thing. I was training this weekend and one of my friends came and was whispering to me what she is feeding her dogs, "raw" I felt like it was such a secret. But I have a magnet on my car, got it on line, says raw fed dog lol. I'm sure that turns heads but I don't care anymore. 

I'm kinda a tree huger too. And have been all my life. Lived in Miami and had my pet chicken laying eggs in the house. lol


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## MollyWoppy (Mar 19, 2010)

Chocx2 said:


> I'm kinda a tree huger too. And have been all my life. Lived in Miami and had my pet chicken laying eggs in the house. lol


I like you!!


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## Thunder409 (Jan 10, 2012)

My vet was completely against it when I first told him about it! He said it would cause more harm than good and my dog would not be able to get all of the nutrients she needs. It took me a while to start raw feeding because of him. When I started feeding her I was terrified of telling him so I kept it to myself. 

Then one day he brought up how amazed he was that all her rashes were gone, that she didn't have digestive issues anymore, and that she wasn't getting sick. Not only that but she was much more energetic. I finally told him that she was on the raw diet and he was shocked at how well she was doing. I told him how it must have been the kibble because no matter what brand we switched her to she always, and I mean ALWAYS, had some sort of problem come up. 

He still believes feeding raw is wrong and that I should return to kibble, but he is nuts if he thinks I will! I am not going to torture my poor pup and make her go through what she was going through when she was on kibble!


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## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

Thunder409 said:


> My vet was completely against it when I first told him about it! He said it would cause more harm than good and my dog would not be able to get all of the nutrients she needs. It took me a while to start raw feeding because of him. When I started feeding her I was terrified of telling him so I kept it to myself.
> 
> Then one day he brought up how amazed he was that all her rashes were gone, that she didn't have digestive issues anymore, and that she wasn't getting sick. Not only that but she was much more energetic. I finally told him that she was on the raw diet and he was shocked at how well she was doing. I told him how it must have been the kibble because no matter what brand we switched her to she always, and I mean ALWAYS, had some sort of problem come up.
> 
> He still believes feeding raw is wrong and that I should return to kibble, but he is nuts if he thinks I will! I am not going to torture my poor pup and make her go through what she was going through when she was on kibble!


Weird he sees the evidence and still says raw feeding sucks. Some people are just so close-minded.

I've always told my vet i feed raw, right from the first. I figured if she pitched a fit I'd find another vet. Luckily, she didn't.

We are meeting a new vet tomorrow, here in Texas. I'm going to tell them what I feed my dogs. If I don't like the response, I'll find another vet.

The problem with telling them the truth is if something digestive comes up, I am afraid they will always blame it on the raw food no matter what is really going on. It could be detrimental to my dogs if they refuse to look past raw food as a problem.

Which is why I am not going to a vet that hates raw feeding. It wouldn't be fair to my dogs. I got lucky with my Indiana vet, and I don't think I'll be satisfied with a relationship that's not like that again.


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## BoxerParty (Nov 9, 2011)

Honestly, I'm in no way ashamed of my choice to feed my dogs PMR. I'm happy to tell people that I feed raw, and I often ask dog owners I know if they've considered it for their own pets if I hear that those pets are having health problems that I know to be improved by raw. I don't push it, and people are free to disagree with me (they can be wrong if they want, i guess! :heh: ), but I certainly advocate for raw if I think my audience is receptive.

I don't, however, choose to discuss that choice with my vet. I really like my current vet in all ways except his opinions about diet. He is extremely competent, he will always squeeze my dogs in the same day if I have a concern, he always calls to check up if they've been ill or after they were neutered, and does countless other things that I appreciate. Mostly, I love that he respects my expertise on what is normal for my own dogs, and the way in which he interacts with them (he greets them enthusiastically, gives them lots of affection, and instinctively knows that Lila needs a softer touch). 

I *know* he would not be supportive of feeding raw. And that, in itself, doesn't bother me so much as the possibility that he would have less respect for me and be less confident in my judgment about my own dogs if he thought I were doing something that is, in his mind, as "irresponsible" as feeding raw. So I choose not to tell him. When I find a vet in my area who supports or is open to (or is at least neutral about) raw, I will take my dogs to that vet and not look back.


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## DaneMama (Jun 27, 2008)

Thunder409 said:


> He still believes feeding raw is wrong and that I should return to kibble, but he is nuts if he thinks I will! I am not going to torture my poor pup and make her go through what she was going through when she was on kibble!


This right here is what I don't get. Unless he cares more about the money you spent with medical bills prior to the switch, that he no longer sees...how in his right (and scientific) mind would he think you should go back?!


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## BoxerParty (Nov 9, 2011)

xellil said:


> The problem with telling them the truth is if something digestive comes up, I am afraid they will always blame it on the raw food no matter what is really going on. It could be detrimental to my dogs if they refuse to look past raw food as a problem.


^THIS. Malcolm has *always* had issues with his digestion. This has been largely sorted out by feeding him raw, but he has had a couple of episodes of serious diarrhea, which I think are attributable to stress, in one case, and enhanced chicken in the other 2. If my vet knew he were eating raw, every time Malcolm got diarrhea, the vet would say it was because his diet "isn't balanced". I know this to be false. Moreover, I *only* take my dogs to the vet for diarrhea if it is serious (totally liquid stools over several days, not resolved by giving slippery elm and feeding exclusively high-bone meats like turkey necks, and combined with whining to go out in the middle of the night and/or poop accidents inside or in their crates), so I'm probably already blaming myself in some way and don't need the guilt trip.


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## Thunder409 (Jan 10, 2012)

DaneMama said:


> This right here is what I don't get. Unless he cares more about the money you spent with medical bills prior to the switch, that he no longer sees...how in his right (and scientific) mind would he think you should go back?!


That is what I don't understand! He says that even though she is doing so well on the raw diet he still thinks that she isn't having a balanced meal, that she is going to have some sort of deficiency, or it will affect her in some way in the long run.

I don't know how he thinks going back to kibble will be any good for her. Every brand we tried did something to her, and I know that feeding her raw is much healthier for her.

Anyway, I haven't gone back to him in a while (because for once she is doing great :wink, but a friend of mine told me her vet actually tells people to try the raw diet, so I am thinking of checking her out.


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## DaneMama (Jun 27, 2008)

Honestly I'd go back to the first vet who doesnt believe in raw. Keep going back to him to prove that nothing is deficient. Run annual or semi annual blood work to check vital organ function. That way he has no justifiable reason to think that raw is inadequate. Yes going to the other vet will help make things more friendly and less confrontational, but that other vet already believes in raw. 

Make him believe and see the benefits for years to come. That's how it's done!


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## BoxerParty (Nov 9, 2011)

DaneMama said:


> Honestly I'd go back to the first vet who doesnt believe in raw. Keep going back to him to prove that nothing is deficient. Run annual or semi annual blood work to check vital organ function. That way he has no justifiable reason to think that raw is inadequate. Yes going to the other vet will help make things more friendly and less confrontational, but that other vet already believes in raw.
> 
> Make him believe and see the benefits for years to come. That's how it's done!


Or, alternative: go to raw-friendly vet. Forward test results/photos/etc. to raw-skeptical vet. Same result (he sees the benefits), minus the drawbacks of seeing him (aggravations of dealing with repeated exhortations to beware of the imbalances of the raw diet). :wink:


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## Thunder409 (Jan 10, 2012)

That is very true! The main reason I wanted to switch vets was because of what other posters said, about how everything will be blamed on the diet. I am going to stick with him for now. She needs her annual heart worm test done this February along with the physical, so we will see what he says.


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## DaneMama (Jun 27, 2008)

No, he sounds like the kind of vet that needs to personally examine the dog himself, not just see number on paper. Going to this guy is just what I would do since I'm not afraid to stand up to any vet about raw. 

With all that said, if your dog gets sick I would go to the raw friendly vet before that other guy, because like already mentioned he will immediately blame raw and nothing more.


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## Thunder409 (Jan 10, 2012)

DaneMama said:


> No, he sounds like the kind of vet that needs to personally examine the dog himself, not just see number on paper. Going to this guy is just what I would do since I'm not afraid to stand up to any vet about raw.
> 
> With all that said, if your dog gets sick I would go to the raw friendly vet before that other guy, because like already mentioned he will immediately blame raw and nothing more.


Yeah that is what I will do. I will check out the other vet, but I will continue going to the current one. If something serious happens I will take her to the other one. I want this guy to realize just how amazing a raw diet is.


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## MollyWoppy (Mar 19, 2010)

DaneMama said:


> Keep going back to him to prove that nothing is deficient. Run annual or semi annual blood work to check vital organ function. That way he has no justifiable reason to think that raw is inadequate.
> 
> Make him believe and see the benefits for years to come. That's how it's done!


Yes, you explained it so much more eloquently that I could. This is exactly what non-confrontational pathetic little me is doing. I like and respect this vet enough that I will try to force him to change his way of thinking.

They do blame everything that's wrong with your dog on the raw food. Last time I went there with Mol, I walked out of there with a sample bag of Science Diet.


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