# Raw vs Kibble poop *contains poop pictures*



## k9capture_16

Alright, when people ask me about some benefits to raw feeding I commonly bring up poop. I tell them that their poops becomes smaller and turn white within a few days. Then after that commonly they go "huh?" and have no idea what I mean. So I thought what I would do is take one of Lincolns poop and Rubys poop and document with pictures over the course of 1 week what happens to both poops. So now when someone wonders what we mean when we say they are smaller and turn white etc they can come view it here. I understand this may not be "normal" per say but hey when was normal expected? LOL

Lincoln is a 65 pound dog, who is raw fed

Ruby is a 12 pound dog who is kibble fed with some raw (for these pics I made sure she wasnt fed any raw for one week.) She is on Blue Buffalo Wilderness kibble

The poops were picked up within 15-20 minutes of each other.

Lincolns poop on right and Rubys poop on left (Day One)


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## xxshaelxx

That came from a twelve pound [email protected]!!!?


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## eternalstudent

Only on DFC!!!!!

Great idea


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## deb9017

That is a good idea! And I Love that you put the poo in a Bulk Barn "Guaranteed Top Quality" container!! :smile:


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## k9capture_16

LOL, yes that poop did come from a 12 pound dog. That was one poop to. Not a bunch collected...sadly.


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## trooperchick

Can I ask why you raw feed one but not both dogs? Just wondering


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## k9capture_16

Lincoln is 100% mine. Ruby is shared. Ruby was given to my grandmother by my father who didnt want her anymore, since my grandmother is older she cannot walk her etc. So I walk her, play with her outside, take her on hikes..but my grandmother pays her vet bills and food. She didnt like the idea of her being on full raw so we agreed raw treats every now and again, plus I can pick her kibble. So shes on a rotation diet. I had to either agree to that, or she remained on Beneful....


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## xxshaelxx

k9capture_16 said:


> Lincoln is 100% mine. Ruby is shared. Ruby was given to my grandmother by my father who didnt want her anymore, since my grandmother is older she cannot walk her etc. So I walk her, play with her outside, take her on hikes..but my grandmother pays her vet bills and food. She didnt like the idea of her being on full raw so we agreed raw treats every now and again, plus I can pick her kibble. So shes on a rotation diet. I had to either agree to that, or she remained on Beneful....


Ick...glad to know your grandmother TOTALLY sees the difference in those poops. XP


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## SerenityFL

Good crimey, the first photo alone speaks volumes and should be all you need to say.

The small amount comes from the big guy. The huge amount comes from the teensy, weensy dog.

Unbelievable.

This isn't what I would consider, "not normal", this is science! And we must sometimes do strange or weird things all in the name of science!

(In case it wasn't noticed, I kinda like science.)


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## RCTRIPLEFRESH5

k9capture_16 said:


> Lincoln is 100% mine. Ruby is shared. Ruby was given to my grandmother by my father who didnt want her anymore, since my grandmother is older she cannot walk her etc. So I walk her, play with her outside, take her on hikes..but my grandmother pays her vet bills and food. She didnt like the idea of her being on full raw so we agreed raw treats every now and again, plus I can pick her kibble. So shes on a rotation diet. I had to either agree to that, or she remained on Beneful....


what kind of kibble i she on??? maybe you need to pick a new one...shane doesnt even poop that much and hes 76 pounds. hes not on the most expensive kibble either..canidae rain free.

oh whatd you mean it turns white? s that a good thing? we left shanes poo out aALL WINTER AND IT WAS WHITE WHEN WE REURNED TO PICK IT UP


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## xxshaelxx

RCTRIPLEFRESH5 said:


> what kind of kibble i she on??? maybe you need to pick a new one...shane doesnt even poop that much and hes 76 pounds. hes not on the most expensive kibble either..canidae rain free.
> 
> oh whatd you mean it turns white? s that a good thing? we left shanes poo out aALL WINTER AND IT WAS WHITE WHEN WE REURNED TO PICK IT UP


She said that the dog was on Blue Buffalo Wilderness.

And the poop turns to an ash-like consistency within only a few days of being left out, and it will crumble, leaving no mess, no hassle.


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## trooperchick

Thanks for clearing that up. And I'm glad she's not on Benaful anymore.


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## hcdoxies

This is going to be an awesome thread! I'm pumped to see the final results! Not that I don't see them in my back yard, but to see it on a thread to which I can refer people is great!


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## k9capture_16

I wouldnt mind getting a dog of his size to compare to. Maybe, when my friend has his one Dalmatian here I will collect a sample of his poop. Hes on mid quality kibble and weigh 65lbs too. I do remember, when he did poop in my yard out of curiousity I left it there for 2 weeks and it didnt even turn white. I could see some grainy bits in there from it dehydrating in the sun..oh and it STUNK.

I thought this would be an interesting thread. Maybe if it gets good enough it will become a sticky :biggrin: I think it serves useful to those thinking about raw or just starting out.


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## meggels

I would be tempted to say that Ruby isn't doing as good as she can be on the food. It just surprises me that that amount of poop comes from her in ONE poop session LOL. My girl Abbie is 35lbs and that's about what she poops in one day total (usually two poops a day), and she's on a grain free kibble.


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## k9capture_16

Shes like this even on Natures Variety and Orijen...


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## Mia

Awesome IDEA!!:smile:


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## DaneMama

This is sticky worthy :wink: :biggrin:


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## k9capture_16

I came on here and was like..where did my flippin post go LOL. Then I saw it up here.

What should I do with the weeks worth of pictures I will collect? Should we try to keep them together in a bunch? Or just post as I go?


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## DaneMama

Just keep adding to this one...It would be cool if a bunch of people did the same thing!!!


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## k9capture_16

I know you all have been excited to see the Day Two pic, so here it is :biggrin:

Day Two


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## John Rambo

Ive never been so excited to see..a turd!


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## magicre

John Rambo said:


> Ive never been so excited to see..a turd!


we live for this....


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## Unosmom

This post cracks me up, but I cant believe that a dog that size poops that much, I mean when Uno eats kibble, his is like 1/3 of that and he's 60 lbs.


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## k9capture_16

With Ruby, I think she doesnt poop everyday. She got herself in a habit when my mother had her that unless she went for a walk she wouldnt poop. So when she does its all backed up. Thats just a theory tho. 

Sadly I went outside to the wind knocked cups over. So I collected w/e poop was on the sidewalk and place it back in the container (I used gloves) so theres less of Ruby's poo

Day Three


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## Shamrockmommy

Funny thread. I'm fascinated but sorto of grossed out at the same time LOL, but I"m a poop checker myself when I scoop. Raw poop is amazing LOL


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## k9capture_16

Ugh, the rain and the wind somehow managed to knock the poop over again from behind the BBQ. Thankfully most was recovered as the wind blew it up against the wall. 

Day Four


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## cprcheetah

Are these entire days worth of poop?


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## k9capture_16

Yes I havent changed the poops in the containers for four days. I did lose some of Rubys to wind LOL. No, Lincoln will poop twice a day one the size in the container and one half that after supper..Ruby? Who knows with her.


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## k9capture_16

Day Five


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## k9capture_16

Day Six


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## magicre

eternalstudent said:


> Only on DFC!!!!!
> 
> Great idea


this is like a daytime soap.....LOL


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## k9capture_16

lol, I have to go out and grab day seven pic soon. I think what I am going to do is wait until the law cutters stop for the season which should be soon and I wont put the poop in containers I will just leave it on the grass and take daily pics . I think having them sit in the containers if slowing down the process a bit.


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## SerenityFL

Shamrockmommy said:


> Funny thread. I'm fascinated but sorto of grossed out at the same time LOL, but I"m a poop checker myself when I scoop. Raw poop is amazing LOL


This is how I feel, it's interesting but gross. If any of you had told me that I would be checking out a thread with pics of dog poop, a year ago, I would have told you all that you are insane.

How things have changed.

I also check out the deposits left behind when my dogs go and I still, after almost a month, do a little dance inside when I see that it's looking how it should. And if I see it a bit runny, my first thought is no longer, "Oh crud, I hope my dog isn't sick", it's, "ah, need more bone".

And I have left some of it behind just to see it later turn white. I'm sorry, I know I should pick all of it up but I wanted to see the white! C'mon, that's understandable right?! (Besides, I'm the only one in my neighborhood who picks up after their dogs....everyone else leaves their dogs poop behind. Which, is disgusting but at the same time, when I see it, I feel smug and superior.)


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## luvMyBRT

SerenityFL said:


> (Besides, I'm the only one in my neighborhood who picks up after their dogs....everyone else leaves their dogs poop behind. Which, is disgusting but at the same time, when I see it, I feel smug and superior.)


This got me laughing. I have done the exact same thing and have felt the exact same way.

I too always pick up my dogs poo. The last time we went camping, there were a few times that the dogs poos were SO small that I thought why bother...?? I mean they were tiny....and would turn white and disintegrate in a matter of days. I just walked away feeling victorious....and laughing smugly. :tongue:


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## magicre

SerenityFL said:


> This is how I feel, it's interesting but gross. If any of you had told me that I would be checking out a thread with pics of dog poop, a year ago, I would have told you all that you are insane.
> 
> How things have changed.
> 
> (Besides, I'm the only one in my neighborhood who picks up after their dogs....everyone else leaves their dogs poop behind. Which, is disgusting but at the same time, when I see it, I feel smug and superior.)


we have pick up laws here....fines can be quite steep for not picking up after your dogs, although for the life of me, i would never be able to pick who does and who doesn't....

i know the feeling, though...i'm picking up these wonderfully compact nuggets of purity....and what i see others leaving are piles of mush.....fascinating and kinda gross....

although, they are not always a perfect 8-10.....depends on what they've eaten.....the beef i get from my co op is very rich, as is venison and beef heart.....so one feeding too many without bone, and poop goes down to a
5-6.

best thing is....feed a little bone and the next one is back to an 8-10.


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## hcdoxies

When I take my girls on a walk they always poop in front of the same neighbors yard... and I don't pick it up, because it's so itty bitty and yeah, it's powder the next day.

I also find satisfaction in stepping on the white poops and watch them disintegrate


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## harrkim120

k9capture_16 said:


> I think having them sit in the containers if slowing down the process a bit.


That's what I was thinking too. I don't know if it's the temperature difference or something, but in a matter of hours my dogs' poo has turned white and chalky.


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## k9capture_16

Ugh I wonder why Lincolns poop still hasnt turned white. I wonder if maybe I gave him a crap treat ( I give him the odd grainy garbage treat) and maybe that wasnt out of his system yet. Maybe I will redo the pics in a few days after making sure he doesnt sneak the odd kibble from Rubys dish or the garbage treat. 

Maybe its a temp thing to I dunno. I will redo the pics in a few days with fresh poop from both. I will make sure Ruby gets no raw and Lincoln gets no grainy treats, only the dehydrated ones.

Then my poop show will begin...better yet..I could wait until next Friday when my friend has his to large crap kibble fed dogs here and I will collect (while gagging) a sample of their poop to compare with Lincolns as they are equal in size. By then the lawn cutters will of stopped coming too as it gets to cold for the grass to grow.


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## xxshaelxx

I think it's a mixture of the cold weather and the cups. The sun is usually what dries them out fast, and with the added cold weather, and lack of sun, as well as having to go through cups, the poops just aren't drying out as quick and turning to ash.


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## k9capture_16

Okay I decided to try another round of this. I used two dogs of the same weight

The poop on the left is Lincolns poop (65lb Belgian Malinois)

The poop on the right is Atlas' poop (60lb Dalmatian)

This is a full days worth of poop. Lincoln only pooped once that day but sometimes he will poop out another piece half the size of the one in the cup.










Lincoln is fed 100% raw except for the occasional crap treat (for this pic he was on raw steady for 3 days no crap treats)

Atlas is fed sub par kibble, Lifetime Chicken Formula, he also is fed raw but for this pic I made sure he had no raw for at least 3 days. 

Pics were taken 24 hours after poop was dropped.


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## cprcheetah

Holy Crap! That's a lot of poop!


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## magicre

well, THAT kind of puts things into perspective, now don't it?

i knew my dogs crapped a lot when on kibble, but wow.....now that i think about it....what they do now is nuffin' by comarison.


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## k9capture_16

Day Two


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## Katy

*Raw fed poop*

One of the many benefits of feeding raw, is the "poop." I haven't had my pooper scooper out since I started them on raw. It does turn white and blows away in just a matter of a few days. When I try explaining this to people and about the decreased drinking of water due to all of the moisture in raw meat, I also get the strangest looks. Like they just can't grasp the concept. It all makes perfect sense to me.

I certainly don't miss cleaning up kibble piles. Or as the kids call them, "land mines."


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## Katy

We call this "poop patrol" at our house, just checking to see if the bone/meat ratio is correct. Too much fat or too much organ, they get a little loose. Then we trim fat for a couple of days. And it's back to the cute little nuggets.

I'm a nurse and have never been this inquisitive about poop in my life. lol


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## k9capture_16

Day Three


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## SerenityFL

Seriously, I cannot get over how much crap is in that second container. That is ridiculous.

What's funny, though, is because I'm the only raw feeder I know around here, when I saw the container with the raw fed poop, my first thought was, "Hey! That looks like MY dogs' poo!"

I never get to see poo that looks like what mine leave...a bit affirming as well since it shows me that I AM doing this right.


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## luvMyBRT

Holy Poop, Batman!


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## k9capture_16

Here is Day Four, to show how it crumbles I just squished it with my fingers (with a glove on of course). I could of done this day one but I wanted to leave it to allow people to compare with other poop. I was thinking about doing this to the other poop to show its still wet and gross etc..but I thought I better not LOL


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## mischiefgrrl

Wow, that crumbling thing is pretty cool. Now I don't feel quite as bad about not realizing I was out of poop bags until my dog was mid squat on the church lawn the other day 

Since we don't have a yard his poop (usually) gets picked up right away and tossed right away so I don't see much of it.


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## k9capture_16

Day Five


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## k9capture_16

Day Six










One more day to go and then I will take one pic once a week for a couple weeks to show that the kibble poop is still hanging around lol


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## k9capture_16

Day Seven


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## DaneMama

Officially a blog post now :wink:

The Proof is in the Poo! | Prey Model Raw


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## DeltaNDoc

Love the pictures Lincoln's mama.  It's Delta n Doc's mom... of course Lol


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## k9capture_16

An Update. The kibble poop is still in the same form..gross.


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## Foodie

This thread is hilarious!!! lmao. Good for entertainment purposes but far from scientific. Different types of diets will have different looking poop no doubt about it. So, the poop of raw fed dogs will turn to powder the next day? Really? From turd to powder just sitting there, just like that? I would love to see time lapsed photography of this. Too funny. All poop turns white eventually, it's bone that remains after everything else has been decomposed. I wouldn't doubt that raw fed dogs eat a higher percentage of bone then a dog that's fed a good kibble. 

I read quite a few comments here about less than stellar piles while feeding raw and I hear this on other forums as well, it seems quite common, how is this a benefit? Is this optimum health? Loose stools, then up the bone, unfortunately it's loaded with toxins from our soil, air and water :frown:. 

There may be benefits to raw feeding but I wouldn't say poop is one of them. How lazy can you get? My kibble fed dogs have better poops than the examples of dry food fed dogs shown in this thread and not as gross looking as the raw fed dog poop, lol. It doesn't matter if I feed my dogs Eagle Pack (with grain) or Orijen (without grain) their poops are moderately small and firm, easy and clean to pick up and most of all consistent. Poop is at it's prime when you feed a good kibble. :biggrin:


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## malluver1005

Foodie said:


> My kibble fed dogs have better poops than the examples of dry food fed dogs shown in this thread and not as gross looking as the raw fed dog poop, lol.


How is a raw fed dog's poop gross??? It's small and odorless. It's not ginormous and nasty smelling like kibble poop.


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## Foodie

malluver1005 said:


> How is a raw fed dog's poop gross??? It's small and odorless. It's not ginormous and nasty smelling like kibble poop.


My dogs don't have _ginormous_ nor nasty smelling poop. The less firm a stool is the more it smells. A healthy dog should have a firm dry stool whether fed kibble or raw. I'll bet in a blind smell test you couldn't distinguish my dogs poop from yours, lol. :wink:


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## 3Musketeers

I have to disagree, the difference in smell of kibble poop and raw poop is huge. Call me dog-nose, I don't care, the difference is HUGE. 

My dogs too had small, solid stools on kibble, but:
1. The kibble poop did not turn to dust within a few hours. Raw does.
2. The odor from kibble poop was not only stronger, but smelled vastly different.
3. The kibble poops always came out brown/black, the raw poops vary in color but turn white within hours regardless.
4. The kibble poop sometimes sticks to things, the raw poop is very dry and does not stick.

Maybe I'm a freak for noticing these things, but to say their poop is prime on kibble, while comparing it to improperly-fed raw poop is not a good comparison. It is true that some kibble-poop is better than that used in the photos here. When the stools are loose on raw, it is almost always the dog owner's fault.

Do I have to film it for you Foodie? Because I am almost willing to take the risk at looking like a psycho for you to see it.


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## xxshaelxx

haha! Foodie, you are entertainment in itself! Obviously you've not seen many kibble vs. raw poops. When my dogs were on kibble, I could smell their poops a mile away, and they were always HUGE and disgusting. The very next DAY after starting them on a raw diet, I went outside with them to watch for poops, and I almost shat myself thinking they were constipated because their poops came out SO small! It was a MASSIVE difference! And I wasn't warned. Not only that, but...I couldn't smell it. Suddenly my yard didn't smell like dog poop every time they went to the bathroom, and when I'd go on walks, if they'd stop to poop, I wouldn't have to apologize to the next three rows of neighbors for the smell.

One time, Amaya shat in a part of the house that I rarely venture to, because I have no need. I didn't find it until days later. Why? Because I couldn't smell it. And how did I clean it up? Grabbed a bag, picked it up, and vacuumed.

When I was confining them to the house 90% of the time, back when they were still weenies and didn't quite have the hang of their house training, they pooped ALL over the living room. I didn't have to do any scrubbing. It was all dry, firm, and turned to dust when I tried to pick it up. So all I had to do, after picking it up with a bag was...oh, vacuum! Even their runnies dry up and turn to dust if left alone.

As for our raw fed dogs getting diarrhea? Well, so do I. It happens. It's gonna happen whether your dog is on raw or kibble.


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## Foodie

3Musketeers said:


> I have to disagree, the difference in smell of kibble poop and raw poop is huge. Call me dog-nose, I don't care, the difference is HUGE.
> 
> My dogs too had small, solid stools on kibble, but:
> 1.* The kibble poop did not turn to dust within a few hours. Raw does.*
> 2. The odor from kibble poop was not only stronger, but smelled vastly different.
> 3. The kibble poops always came out brown/black, the raw poops vary in color but turn white within hours regardless.
> 4. The kibble poop sometimes sticks to things, the raw poop is very dry and does not stick.
> 
> Maybe I'm a freak for noticing these things, but to say their poop is prime on kibble, while comparing it to improperly-fed raw poop is not a good comparison. It is true that some kibble-poop is better than that used in the photos here. When the stools are loose on raw, it is almost always the dog owner's fault.
> 
> *Do I have to film it for you Foodie?* Because I am almost willing to take the risk at looking like a psycho for you to see it.


I would love to see a video of raw fed poop _*turning to dust within a few hours*_, don't forget to use your time stamp!
:biggrin:


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## Foodie

xxshaelxx said:


> haha! Foodie, you are entertainment in itself! Obviously you've not seen many kibble vs. raw poops. When my dogs were on kibble, I could smell their poops a mile away, and they were always HUGE and disgusting. The very next DAY after starting them on a raw diet, I went outside with them to watch for poops, and I almost shat myself thinking they were constipated because their poops came out SO small! It was a MASSIVE difference! And I wasn't warned. Not only that, but...I couldn't smell it. *Suddenly my yard didn't smell like dog poop every time they went to the bathroom, and when I'd go on walks, if they'd stop to poop, I wouldn't have to apologize to the next three rows of neighbors for the smell.*
> 
> One time, Amaya shat in a part of the house that I rarely venture to, because I have no need. I didn't find it until days later. Why? Because I couldn't smell it. And how did I clean it up? Grabbed a bag, picked it up, and vacuumed.
> 
> When I was confining them to the house 90% of the time, back when they were still weenies and didn't quite have the hang of their house training, they pooped ALL over the living room. I didn't have to do any scrubbing. It was all dry, firm, and turned to dust when I tried to pick it up. So all I had to do, after picking it up with a bag was...oh, vacuum! Even their runnies dry up and turn to dust if left alone.
> 
> As for our raw fed dogs getting diarrhea? Well, so do I. It happens. It's gonna happen whether your dog is on raw or kibble.


My yard never smells like dog poop, in fact if I'm out there picking up poo and one of them happens to go I have a hard time finding it when I get to the area I saw them going. I bet your neighbor was pretty upset for you messing up their lawn, that poop had to be pretty loose, remember the looser the poop the more it stinks. That's how it works. Maybe you weren't feeding the kibble correctly _or _maybe your choice of kibble was not a good choice for your dog or maybe you gave your dog other foodstuff or chews that upset his system.

I'd hate to be a puppy in your house and I wouldn't want to sit on your floor either.

As for diarrhea, I have one dog here that is four years old and has *never* had diarrhea. Come to think of it, I can't remember the last time I had diarrhea.


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## xxshaelxx

Foodie said:


> My yard never smells like dog poop, in fact if I'm out there picking up poo and one of them happens to go I have a hard time finding it when I get to the area I saw them going. I bet your neighbor was pretty upset for you messing up their lawn, that poop had to be pretty loose, remember the looser the poop the more it stinks. That's how it works. Maybe you weren't feeding the kibble correctly _or _maybe your choice of kibble was not a good choice for your dog or maybe you gave your dog other foodstuff or chews that upset his system.
> 
> I'd hate to be a puppy in your house and I wouldn't want to sit on your floor either.
> 
> As for diarrhea, I have one dog here that is four years old and has *never* had diarrhea. Come to think of it, I can't remember the last time I had diarrhea.


Wow! I love how you jump to a lot of conclusions in this post! First of all, my dogs have never pooped on anyone else's lawn. Second of all, my dogs rarely ever get diarrhea, and it was more often than not when they were puppies, and not due to their food, rather than it was due to things like giardia. Third, I was over exaggerating when I said that I had to go apologize to all the neighbors, because I wouldn't have done that no matter how bad the dogs' poops stank. Fourth, whereas my dogs runny poops were always stinkier than their solid poops, it was never by much, and their solid poops stank to the high heavens and back. When they were on kibble, Ryou had the WORST gas, even when his poops were as solid as they could be (on kibble). Fifth, I have a female dog and a male dog, don't assume I have just a male dog, especially when the dog I referred to in my post is a female. Sixth, my dogs haven't returned to any of the spots where they once pooped, except for the one spot where Amaya would poop when she was a puppy and still learning her basic house training. Other than that, it's always someplace different.

Don't you DARE go assuming that my house is unclean. I bet it stinks less than yours, with your kibble-eating dogs who still smell like dogs. When I take a big whiff of my dogs, I smell NOTHING.


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## RawFedDogs

Foodie said:


> I would love to see a video of raw fed poop _turning to dust within a few hours_, don't forget to use your time stamp!
> :biggrin:


All you have to do is feed your dog a prey model raw diet for about a week and you will see it. I think you are wasting your time telling people who do feed a PMR how their dogs poop looks. They have done it and you haven't. MOST PMR feeders don't even get up their dog's poop because it's gone in a few days anyway. No stink, no mess, no nothing. ALMOST the only time that is different is when SOME dogs are in the process of switching from kibble and their bodies haven't yet adapeted to digesting real food.

Yes, that is one of the advantages of feeding such a diet. I don't think you can compare your dog's kibble fed poop to a PMR fed dog's poop. You don't know what small compact poop is. My 2 Great Danes poop about 2 little logs a day about the size of my thumb. Kibble fed dogs don't even come close to that. I have seen a lot of kibble feeders brag about how small their dogs poops are only to find out they are about 3 times the size of PMR fed dogs.


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## sassymaxmom

Artie is fed grain free kibble and he poops 2 times a day, the volume is twice what Max's is and Artie is half Max's size. Artie's poop is firm and not stinky but the volume is 4x and the dog is half the size so that makes it 8x the size it might be on raw. His pooping is annoying only because of the frequency.

Sassy was fed home cooked food that was as low in fiber as I could make it and her poop was twice the size of Max's poop although she was only a few pounds heavier. Not stinky either.

Max's poop can be plenty stinky if it is soft, very true. It varies depending on his meals which I prefer to vary a great deal in variety of meats, size of meal and amount of bone and organ fed each day. Even if it happens to have been a huge organy meal his soft poop will dry up nicely and be easy to pick up in a day or so. I have overfed bone and he pooped dust, does that count?

Kibble poop stays hazardous to the shoe for a week and raw poop is dry in a day. I don't want it to turn to bony dust, that means too much bone has been eaten. It is more like a dry leaf. Alas, this week with all the rain it didn't dry up and it has been hard to clean up the yard. And it is so small it is hard to spot!

Poop patrol isn't a huge deal for my medium sized dogs with medium sized poop. Guessing it is a big deal with big dogs.


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## luvMyBRT

Foodie said:


> I'll bet in a blind smell test you couldn't distinguish my dogs poop from yours, lol. :wink:


LOL!

Oh, I bet I could! I also bet I could tell who's dog was mine from blindly smelling the actual dog. And, I bet I could tell which dog was mine from blindly smelling their breath....

So, bring it on!


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## Foodie

xxshaelxx said:


> Wow! I love how you jump to a lot of conclusions in this post! First of all, my dogs have never pooped on anyone else's lawn. Second of all, my dogs rarely ever get diarrhea, and it was more often than not when they were puppies, and not due to their food, rather than it was due to things like giardia. Third, I was over exaggerating when I said that I had to go apologize to all the neighbors, because I wouldn't have done that no matter how bad the dogs' poops stank. Fourth, whereas my dogs runny poops were always stinkier than their solid poops, it was never by much, and their solid poops stank to the high heavens and back. When they were on kibble, Ryou had the WORST gas, even when his poops were as solid as they could be (on kibble). Fifth, I have a female dog and a male dog, don't assume I have just a male dog, especially when the dog I referred to in my post is a female. Sixth, my dogs haven't returned to any of the spots where they once pooped, except for the one spot where Amaya would poop when she was a puppy and still learning her basic house training. Other than that, it's always someplace different.
> 
> Don't you DARE go assuming that my house is unclean. I bet it stinks less than yours, with your kibble-eating dogs who still smell like dogs. When I take a big whiff of my dogs, I smell NOTHING.


I can see that you can count (first of all, second of all etc.) but your communication skills are lacking. I'm just reading what you posted, if your walking your dogs and they stop to poop they must poop on the sidewalk then, no? Why would you otherwise exaggerate about apologizing to the neighbors? 

I'll repeat this once again, the looser the stool the more it stinks, a firm stool shouldn't reek. If your dogs poop _stank_ that much then one, it wasn't firm enough, two, your exaggerating again or three, your not truthful or you have a negative recollection based on your bias for raw poop. I find a lot of raw feeders embellish the truth. 

If your dog had bad gas then you were using the wrong kibble for your dog. Please don't give advice in other parts of the forum that don't have anything to do with raw feeding. 

When I referred to your dog as "him" it was simply rhetorical, a means of communication, no need to get upset about that, I wasn't assuming anything and what difference does it make anyway? 

Sorry but I still wouldn't sit on your floor. My house doesn't stink and my dogs don't stink either, a healthy, correctly fed dog shouldn't stink!


----------



## Foodie

RawFedDogs said:


> All you have to do is feed your dog a prey model raw diet for about a week and you will see it. I think you are wasting your time telling people who do feed a PMR how their dogs poop looks. They have done it and you haven't. MOST PMR feeders don't even get up their dog's poop because it's gone in a few days anyway. No stink, no mess, no nothing. ALMOST the only time that is different is when SOME dogs are in the process of switching from kibble and their bodies haven't yet adapeted to digesting real food.
> 
> Yes, that is one of the advantages of feeding such a diet. I don't think you can compare your dog's kibble fed poop to a PMR fed dog's poop. You don't know what small compact poop is. My 2 Great Danes poop about 2 little logs a day about the size of my thumb. Kibble fed dogs don't even come close to that. I have seen a lot of kibble feeders brag about how small their dogs poops are only to find out they are about 3 times the size of PMR fed dogs.


No thanks on trying the raw diet for a week, my dogs are healthy on kibble and I like the convenience and cleanliness. I'm not telling raw feeders how their dogs poop looks, their telling me! I find it hard to believe poop can disintegrate to dust within a few hours. That's remarkable and if it's true I want to see it. I want to see it untouched, laying on the ground just how it was made, turning to dust, with time documentation, that would be fantastic!!!

Loose stools seem commonplace with raw feeding, not just when dogs are in the process of switching like you say. It must not be that easy for the average person to feed this diet correctly, it's not a diet I would recommend for everyone for this reason. 

Whats wrong with a moderately small stool? Hey if you stop feeding your dog there won't be any poop at all, lol. I enjoy the convenience of clean, timely and consistent stools and I'm sure my dog does too.


----------



## Foodie

sassymaxmom said:


> Artie is fed grain free kibble and he poops 2 times a day, the volume is twice what Max's is and Artie is half Max's size. Artie's poop is firm and not stinky but the volume is 4x and the dog is half the size so that makes it 8x the size it might be on raw. His pooping is annoying only because of the frequency.
> 
> Sassy was fed home cooked food that was as low in fiber as I could make it and her poop was twice the size of Max's poop although she was only a few pounds heavier. Not stinky either.
> 
> Max's poop can be plenty stinky if it is soft, very true. It varies depending on his meals which I prefer to vary a great deal in variety of meats, size of meal and amount of bone and organ fed each day. Even if it happens to have been a huge organy meal his soft poop will dry up nicely and be easy to pick up in a day or so. *I have overfed bone and he pooped dust, does that count?
> *
> Kibble poop stays hazardous to the shoe for a week and raw poop is dry in a day. I don't want it to turn to bony dust, that means too much bone has been eaten. It is more like a dry leaf. Alas, this week with all the rain it didn't dry up and it has been hard to clean up the yard. And it is so small it is hard to spot!
> 
> Poop patrol isn't a huge deal for my medium sized dogs with medium sized poop. Guessing it is a big deal with big dogs.


Your dog pooped dust??? Lmao, I'd get him to the vet. 

I can't tell you how many times I was searching for a fresh poop and I stepped right on it, nothing on my shoe. My dogs poop remains hard even in the rain! For some reason raw feeders seem to think feeding raw is the only way a dog can have a firm normal poop, not so!


----------



## Foodie

saraj2878 said:


> LOL!
> 
> Oh, I bet I could! I also bet I could tell who's dog was mine from blindly smelling the actual dog. And, I bet I could tell which dog was mine from blindly smelling their breath....
> 
> So, bring it on!


My dogs don't have foul smelling breath either and if they did I would suspect a medical problem and get them to the vet.

Bring what on? There's more than one way to feed a dog unfortunately raw feeders don't understand that.


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## DaneMama

Foodie said:


> I can see that you can count (first of all, second of all etc.) but your communication skills are lacking. I'm just reading what you posted, if your walking your dogs and they stop to poop they must poop on the sidewalk then, no? Why would you otherwise exaggerate about apologizing to the neighbors?
> 
> I'll repeat this once again, the looser the stool the more it stinks, a firm stool shouldn't reek. If your dogs poop _stank_ that much then one, it wasn't firm enough, two, your exaggerating again or three, your not truthful or you have a negative recollection based on your bias for raw poop. I find a lot of raw feeders embellish the truth.


First off, theres no reason to be condescending and rude to people because it won't get you far here, in fact it's the fastest way to get perfectly good threads shut down. So knock it off. Treat people with dignity please.

Second, I work with numerous dogs at my work everyday. Not a single one is raw fed. Even the dogs on high quality food still have larger, stinkier poos than any raw fed dog I know. No question there. I suggest maybe spending a bit more time watching numerous raw fed dogs defecate before you speak on this topic.



> Please don't give advice in other parts of the forum that don't have anything to do with raw feeding.


The same could be said to you. You don't feed raw, and don't plan on it so maybe just stick to your territory in the kibble section? You've already discredited yourself here which doesn't gain you respect. There's an unspoken rule here about not mentioning raw in the kibble section and that rule is followed by most. I don't care if you mention kibble here because I know that you'll hands down lose the debate on which is better for dogs :wink: 



Foodie said:


> No thanks on trying the raw diet for a week, my dogs are healthy on kibble and I like the convenience and cleanliness.


So you admit that a raw diet is just too inconvenient? Thats too bad because it's really not that much work and you have no clue what your dogs are missing out on. Oh well, can't win them all. 



> I'm not telling raw feeders how their dogs poop looks, their telling me! I find it hard to believe poop can disintegrate to dust within a few hours. That's remarkable and if it's true I want to see it. I want to see it untouched, laying on the ground just how it was made, turning to dust, with time documentation, that would be fantastic!!!


Lets just set one thing straight, raw poop doesn't disintegrate in a few hours and who ever said that IS exaggerating. It will crumble up into grainy bit within a few hours if messed with and will take a few days to break up and become perfect fertilizer for the yard. Without a doubt it's better for the environment. 



> Loose stools seem commonplace with raw feeding, not just when dogs are in the process of switching like you say. It must not be that easy for the average person to feed this diet correctly, it's not a diet I would recommend for everyone for this reason.


Hmmm...there's something completely misleading about your first sentence. You speak this like youre experienced and knowledgeable on the topic of RAW as a whole. Which you are far from it, admittedly so. Until you're an experienced in raw feeding please refrain from posting comments making it look like you are. It's not normal for experienced raw fed dogs to have constant loose stools, and if they are they're doing something wrong and the fix is easy. And if you spent any real amount of time with numerous raw feeding groups (like most of the raw feeders here) you'd see that loose stools are NOT a common place.

Foodie....why on earth do you insist on wasting your breath, time and energy talking to a bunch of raw feeders? Youre not going to change your mind and neither are we? I get the feeling like you just want to stir the pot


----------



## RawFedDogs

Foodie said:


> No thanks on trying the raw diet for a week, my dogs are healthy on kibble and I like the convenience and cleanliness.


I don't know how many raw feeders have told me, "I used to think my dogs were healthy when I fed them kibble but I obviously didn't know what healthy really looked like. They are REALLY healthy now."



> Loose stools seem commonplace with raw feeding, not just when dogs are in the process of switching like you say. It must not be that easy for the average person to feed this diet correctly, it's not a diet I would recommend for everyone for this reason.


No, its VERY rare. I have seen one loose stool from my dogs in 8 years.  It is very easy to feed a raw diet. It's almost impossible to mess it up if you follow 2 or 3 very simple rules.



> Whats wrong with a moderately small stool? Hey if you stop feeding your dog there won't be any poop at all, lol. I enjoy the convenience of clean, timely and consistent stools and I'm sure my dog does too.


There is nothing wrong with a moderately small stool. A very small stool is a lot better.  The larger the stool, the more inappropriate ingredients you are feeding. Consistence of stools depends on consistence of the food you are feeding. My dog's stools are looser or tighter depending on what the last couple of meals were. Something like beef heart (very nutritious) create black softer stools while chicken produce hard yellowish stools. Other meats are somewhere in between. Whether or not you fed organ meat in a particular meal will also determine consistency. All this doesn't mean there is anything wrong with his diet. He is merely eliminating what he ate.



> Your dog pooped dust??? Lmao, I'd get him to the vet.


It happens sometimes when too much bone is fed a couple meals in a row. It's really no big deal. It usually happens to newbies and once they figure it out, doesn't happen again.



> My dogs don't have foul smelling breath either and if they did I would suspect a medical problem and get them to the vet.


The dog food companies will admit that 85% of dogs fed their products will have periodontal disease by they time they are 3 years old. The cure for that is a dental cleaning done by the vet. Raw fed dogs NEVER have to have a dental cleaning. Their diet handles that.



> There's more than one way to feed a dog unfortunately raw feeders don't understand that.


Most of us are aware that there is more than one way to feed a dog. Many of us have tried many different diets. Because we have tried different diets, we know that there is one VERY superior way to feed them. Until you have tried a variety of diets, there is just no way to know. We also are aware that there is one VERY inferior way to feed dogs and thats the way most people feed because of convenience.

You have a lot to learn about canine nutrition. Perhaps some research would teach you something. To begin your education, I suggest you get hold of a copy of Dr. Tom Lonsdale's book, Raw Meaty Bones Promote Health.

You can get it from Amazon.com or Dogwise.com or you can download it in PDF format for about $12 from Tom Lonsdale - Over 150,000 eBooks - eBookMall

After reading this book, I suspect you will change your attitude. :smile:


----------



## luvMyBRT

Foodie said:


> There's more than one way to feed a dog unfortunately raw feeders don't understand that.


Well, sure there's more than one way to feed a dog. And there is more than one way to feed raw as well. The thing is that most raw feeders know that the truly CORRECT way to really feed a CARNIVORE is by feeding mostly meat, some bone, and some organs. It's pretty simple......


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## malluver1005

Foodie said:


> My dogs don't have _ginormous_ nor nasty smelling poop. The less firm a stool is the more it smells. A healthy dog should have a firm dry stool whether fed kibble or raw. I'll bet in a blind smell test you couldn't distinguish my dogs poop from yours, lol. :wink:


In the end, a kibble fed dog's poo smells NO MATTER how firm it is. It might not smell nasty to you, but none the less it smells. A raw fed dog's poo is ODORLESS. No smell at all. So I probably could tell my dog's poo from yours 

And as a side note, it's pretty clear that you are just on the raw section just to stir things up. You don't see me in the kibble section doing the same. And believe me, there is A LOT to say.


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## Foodie

danemama08 said:


> First off, theres no reason to be condescending and rude to people because it won't get you far here, in fact it's the fastest way to get perfectly good threads shut down. So knock it off. Treat people with dignity please.


I noticed that whenever someone on this forum doesn't like a response that explains why someone wrote what they did, it's called rude and condescending. My first statement in that post was probably uncalled for but I was shocked to hear that I _jumped to conclusions_ when in fact I was only commenting on the words as they were written. If the poster meant something different then they shouldn't have written what they did, I don't know the poster and I can't read minds. I'm also entitled to my opinion.



> The same could be said to you. You don't feed raw, and don't plan on it so maybe just stick to your territory in the kibble section? You've already discredited yourself here which doesn't gain you respect. There's an unspoken rule here about not mentioning raw in the kibble section and that rule is followed by most. I don't care if you mention kibble here because *I know that you'll hands down lose the debate on which is better for dogs* :wink:


I don't feed raw but I have a right to read what I want and I would never give advice for something that I have no experience or knowledge with. If you haven't noticed, this thread is about raw vs. _kibble_ poop. I read your unspoken rule somewhere on this forum but the last time I read the kibble section there was plenty of jabs and hard sell remarks about feeding raw. Kibble feeders aren't welcomed here, I learned this quickly. I know a lot about nutrition and I have plenty to contribute that could help people but I have stopped visiting this forum because of the cult like attitude towards raw feeding. I have no interest in debating which method of feeding is better but it's obvious that this is something raw feeders here like to do (your post is a good example). There is more than one way to feed a dog and I accept your choice to feed raw and I'm not trying to convince you to feed kibble so why not accept others decisions to feed what they want? If you don't believe this forum does this then you need to open your eyes.



> So you admit that a raw diet is just too inconvenient? Thats too bad because it's really not that much work and you have no clue what your dogs are missing out on. *Oh well, can't win them all.*





> Lets just set one thing straight, raw poop doesn't disintegrate in a few hours and who ever said that IS exaggerating. It will crumble up into grainy bit within a few hours if messed with and will take a few days to break up and become perfect fertilizer for the yard. Without a doubt it's better for the environment.


I'm sorry but I can't believe a raw fed poop will crumble up into _grainy bits _within a few hours, _messed with_ or not. I know people who feed raw and I've seen poop from raw fed dogs, some of it looks minimally processed and far from _bits_, maybe that's why I think raw fed poop looks gross. I suppose if I added bone meal to my dogs kibble it would disintegrate faster but contrary to what people believe here, bone is not a healthy food item. A lot of heavy metals and toxins are found in bone, fluoride is one and it can cause many cancers primarily osteosarcoma, a fast and fatal cancer that's all too common in larger dogs. 



> Hmmm...there's something completely misleading about your first sentence. You speak this like youre experienced and knowledgeable on the topic of RAW as a whole. Which you are far from it, admittedly so. Until you're an experienced in raw feeding please refrain from posting comments making it look like you are. It's not normal for experienced raw fed dogs to have constant loose stools, and if they are they're doing something wrong and the fix is easy. And if you spent any real amount of time with numerous raw feeding groups (like most of the raw feeders here) you'd see that loose stools are NOT a common place.


When I said loose stools _seem _commonplace I'm speaking about my observations taken from what I've read on several forums (including this thread btw) and from what I've heard from people that I know who feed raw. Never said anything about constant loose stools. No personal knowledge or experience with feeding raw here, I don't believe I said I was experienced with feeding raw, why so rude and condescending? Hmmm....



> Foodie....why on earth do you insist on wasting your breath, time and energy talking to a bunch of raw feeders? Youre not going to change your mind and neither are we? I get the feeling like you just want to stir the pot


I'm not trying to change anyone's mind about feeding raw or convert them to kibble, where do you get that??? I rarely come to this forum but when I do it's with the intent on learning. It's impossible to voice one's opinion on this forum if it goes against the grain. Let people voice their opinion and let it go. This thread struck me as funny and it's laughable that you found it stickey worthy, lol. Now if this experiment was conducted in a more scientific manner it may have been interesting and a learning experience but instead it's serves to discredit your credibility and yet you showcase it, lol.


----------



## BrownieM

I don't really want to get into this, but I DO want to add that I guarantee if I were to mess with Millie's poop from this morning (which I'm not going to do :wink it it will break into tiny pieces. On kibble her poop was nasty: a mixture of soft serve, gooeyness and sometimes formed. 

All I have to offer is my personal anecdote.


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## Foodie

RawFedDogs said:


> The dog food companies will admit that 85% of dogs fed their products will have periodontal disease by they time they are 3 years old. The cure for that is a dental cleaning done by the vet. Raw fed dogs NEVER have to have a dental cleaning. Their diet handles that.


I never heard that 85% figure, do you have a source for your information or link? I admit the clean teeth aspect is definitely a positive for raw feeding but I have found that if kibble is put into a rubber treat dispensing toy (with nubs), the dog will manipulate that rubber toy in his mouth to get the food and essentially brushes his teeth. I really don't have periodontal disease or plaque here and I think some kibble foods are better than others when it comes to plaque.



> Most of us are aware that there is more than one way to feed a dog. Many of us have tried many different diets. Because we have tried different diets, we know that there is one VERY superior way to feed them. Until you have tried a variety of diets, there is just no way to know. We also are aware that there is one VERY inferior way to feed dogs and thats the way most people feed because of convenience.


This is your opinion I might listen up more if you stated such. 



> You have a lot to learn about canine nutrition. Perhaps some research would teach you something. To begin your education, I suggest you get hold of a copy of Dr. Tom Lonsdale's book, Raw Meaty Bones Promote Health.


There's always something to learn about any topic and I hope to keep current in my knowledge about nutrition. It's pretty condescending of you to say I have a lot to learn about canine nutrition  and I would bet my knowledge surpasses yours in this field. I'm open minded to different feeding methods and since your already convinced that there is only one superior way to feed dogs then I would say your learning is limited. Commercial dog food is constantly changing and what you fed your dogs years ago just doesn't apply today. Thank you for the book recommendation, I'll consider it.


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## Foodie

BrownieM said:


> I don't really want to get into this, but I DO want to add that I guarantee if I were to mess with Millie's poop from this morning (which I'm not going to do :wink it it will break into tiny pieces. On kibble her poop was nasty: a mixture of soft serve, gooeyness and sometimes formed.
> 
> All I have to offer is my personal anecdote.


Unfortunately there isn't a good forum for people to get help with feeding kibble. :frown: Many people don't know how to pick a good kibble and most kibble choices are made based on hype and marketing.


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## Muck

Orijen Adult (six star kibble) I underlined the ingredients that are in my opinion filler. This is probably one of the best foods out there but there is still stuff a dog doesnt need in it. It might not hurt the dog but its not going to add anything to their health.Its just going to come out in there *POOP* and make it bigger, smelly. 

Fresh boneless chicken, chicken meal, turkey meal, russet potato, fresh pacific salmon (a natural source of DHA and EPA), herring meal, sweet potato, peas, fresh lake whitefish, fresh northern walleye, chicken fat (naturally preserved with vitamin E and citric acid), chicken liver, salmon meal, fresh turkey, fresh whole eggs, fresh deboned herring, sun-cured alfalfa, salmon oil, chicory root, dehydrated organic kelp, pumpkin, carrots, spinach, turnip greens, apples, cranberries, saskatoon berries, black currants, choline chloride, psyllium, licorice root, angelica root, fenugreek, marigold flowers, sweet fennel, peppermint leaf, chamomile flowers, dandelion, summer savory, rosemary, sea salt, vitamin supplements (vitamin A, vitamin D3, vitamin E, niacin, vitamin C, thiamine mononitrate, riboflavin, vitamin B5, vitamin B6, folic acid, biotin, vitamin B12), mineral supplements (zinc proteinate, iron proteinate, manganese proteinate, copper proteinate, selenium), dried Lactobacillus acidophilus, dried Enterococcus faecium fermentation product.

Heres what in chicken-

Chicken

Theres no fooling around. Your dogs using almost all of it. Smaller poops, less smelly.


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## DaneMama

Foodie said:


> I noticed that whenever someone on this forum doesn't like a response that explains why someone wrote what they did, it's called rude and condescending. If the poster meant something different then they shouldn't have written what they did, I don't know the poster and I can't read minds. I'm also entitled to my opinion.


Actually, contrary to what you believe most people here say that this is one of the more open and friendly communities. Just ask around or look up some of the threads from people happy about how friendly we are. What did you expect posting what you did from all of us? Your first post was far from friendly or even constructive in any way.

You are entitled you opinion but what you aren't entitled to is being rude and condescending. Here's some quotes from you earlier in this thread that I find particularly uncouth: 

_How lazy can you get?

I can see that you can count (first of all, second of all etc.)

Your dog pooped dust??? Lmao, I'd get him to the vet._

If you post up without quite so much attitude I'm sure you'd get a better response....just a thought.



> I don't feed raw but I have a right to read what I want and I would never give advice for something that I have no experience or knowledge with. If you haven't noticed, this thread is about raw vs. _kibble_ poop.


Yes, it is about raw vs kibble poop but this thread is located in the RAW FORUM. Almost every single dog owner that is a raw feeder on this forum started out on kibble, either high quality or not. So you see...most people here who raw feed are not only informed and experienced on raw but they are also about kibble.

I also know for a fact that every raw feeder here will offer advice to people not interested in raw for better, more appropriate foods. I have nothing against people who don't choose to feed raw, its their choice.



> I read your unspoken rule somewhere on this forum but the last time I read the kibble section there was plenty of jabs and hard sell remarks about feeding raw. Kibble feeders aren't welcomed here, I learned this quickly. I know a lot about nutrition and I have plenty to contribute that could help people but I have stopped visiting this forum because of the cult like attitude towards raw feeding. I have no interest in debating which method of feeding is better but it's obvious that this is something raw feeders here like to do (your post is a good example). There is more than one way to feed a dog and I accept your choice to feed raw and I'm not trying to convince you to feed kibble so why not accept others decisions to feed what they want? If you don't believe this forum does this then you need to open your eyes.


Hmmm....from your posting history you have only really spent time on a few threads here. If you look at the ENTIRE kibble section you will see that it is in fact active with lots or regular posters. Check it out:

Dry and Canned Dog Food - Dog Food Forum

I will admit that a lot more activity goes on in the raw section but thats just because there are simply more raw feeders here. It doesn't mean that kibble feeders are not welcome. Heck, if anything we need more kibblers to support their side of the table. So just a suggestion...maybe stick around and just post there? Help people switch their dogs to better foods. Because in the end that is all that matters to the whole purpose of this forum. I encourage you to post more often in a polite manner.





> I'm sorry but I can't believe a raw fed poop will crumble up into _grainy bits _within a few hours, _messed with_ or not. I know people who feed raw and I've seen poop from raw fed dogs, some of it looks minimally processed and far from _bits_, maybe that's why I think raw fed poop looks gross. I suppose if I added bone meal to my dogs kibble it would disintegrate faster but contrary to what people believe here, bone is not a healthy food item. A lot of heavy metals and toxins are found in bone, fluoride is one and it can cause many cancers primarily osteosarcoma, a fast and fatal cancer that's all too common in larger dogs.


You would have to see it to believe then, thats all I have to say about that. 

Bone meal and fresh, raw bones are completely different. Where do you get your information that RAW whole bones are unhealthy, contain heavy metals, toxins and cause cancer? I'd love to know this....



> When I said loose stools _seem _commonplace I'm speaking about my observations taken from what I've read on several forums (including this thread btw) and from what I've heard from people that I know who feed raw. Never said anything about constant loose stools. No personal knowledge or experience with feeding raw here, I don't believe I said I was experienced with feeding raw, why so rude and condescending? Hmmm....


Loose stools is something that is normal for dogs on a natural diet. Like Bill was saying earlier, different food items will produce different looking stools. Raw fed dogs' poos are not the same day in and day out like kibble fed dogs.

If you believe that I was rude and condescending I am sorry. Please point out what you believe I said was this way and I will work on it :wink:



> I'm not trying to change anyone's mind about feeding raw or convert them to kibble, where do you get that??? I rarely come to this forum but when I do it's with the intent on learning. It's impossible to voice one's opinion on this forum if it goes against the grain. Let people voice their opinion and let it go.


Yes, if you post up about raw NOT being ideal in the RAW FORUM you will get a negative response...what did you expect? Just stick to the kibble section and voice your opinions there, I'm sure you'd get a better response. But if you post up your opinions in the RAW FORUM expect to get a hearty response....as you well know!



> This thread struck me as funny and it's laughable that you found it stickey worthy, lol. Now if this experiment was conducted in a more scientific manner it may have been interesting and a learning experience but instead it's serves to discredit your credibility and yet you showcase it, lol.


This is just making you seem like you're mocking us. Which just isn't nice. We have to do as much 'research' as we can to promote raw. There's no harm in that. WHY post up about it being "laughable" if it doesn't make a difference to you in the first place? And to be quite honest, I think this post (also on my blog) created more of a stir amongst kibble feeders that raw IS better. So you may think that it discredits raw feeding just because it wasn't done in a more scientific way (now that I think about it....ALL the raw feeders here should do this just to get more/better results) but I can tell you from the personal response I've gotten from it that you are one of the few and far between.



Foodie said:


> I never heard that 85% figure, do you have a source for your information or link? I admit the clean teeth aspect is definitely a positive for raw feeding but I have found that if kibble is put into a rubber treat dispensing toy (with nubs), the dog will manipulate that rubber toy in his mouth to get the food and essentially brushes his teeth. I really don't have periodontal disease or plaque here and I think some kibble foods are better than others when it comes to plaque.


I can tell you from experience alone that this 85% figure is approximately true. I do dentals every week on dogs and cats who eat a kibble diet, and not one that has been raw fed. Some of these animals are not even 2 years old yet and already have to lose teeth due to poor dental hygiene. NO kibble out there is good at cleaning teeth, not even close to the cleaning power of raw meaty bones.

Really? You believe that putting kibble into a rubber treat dispenser is better than giving whole, raw bones for dogs to chew on? You'll have to give me more details at HOW you think this is more natural for a dog.



> There's always something to learn about any topic and I hope to keep current in my knowledge about nutrition. It's pretty condescending of you to say I have a lot to learn about canine nutrition  and I would bet my knowledge surpasses yours in this field. I'm open minded to different feeding methods and since your already convinced that there is only one superior way to feed dogs then I would say your learning is limited. Commercial dog food is constantly changing and what you fed your dogs years ago just doesn't apply today. Thank you for the book recommendation, I'll consider it.


There is only one superior way to feed a dog, and that is a prey model raw diet. Most people just haven't EXPERIENCED it yet to know. Once you experience it you'll understand. 

Your knowledge is just different than ours. You may be an expert in commercially processed kibbles...we are experts in feeding a whole, raw food diet. The field of "nutrition" in dogs is divided. There's feeding a processed diet and feeding a natural diet. Knowledge and experience in both are different. But like I said earlier in this post, most of us raw feeders are converted over from kibble. We've been there and done that and have found raw to be FAR superior than kibble. Until you experience feeding raw, you'll never know for sure that kibble is the best thing for your dogs.



Foodie said:


> Unfortunately there isn't a good forum for people to get help with feeding kibble. :frown: Many people don't know how to pick a good kibble and most kibble choices are made based on hype and marketing.


Oh its a perfectly good forum for feeding kibble. Just check out the active kibble forum :wink:


----------



## sassymaxmom

Muck said:


> Orijen Adult (six star kibble) I underlined the ingredients that are in my opinion filler. This is probably one of the best foods out there but there is still stuff a dog doesnt need in it. It might not hurt the dog but its not going to add anything to their health.Its just going to come out in there *POOP* and make it bigger, smelly.
> 
> Fresh boneless chicken, chicken meal, turkey meal, russet potato, fresh pacific salmon (a natural source of DHA and EPA), herring meal, sweet potato, peas, fresh lake whitefish, fresh northern walleye, chicken fat (naturally preserved with vitamin E and citric acid), chicken liver, salmon meal, fresh turkey, fresh whole eggs, fresh deboned herring, sun-cured alfalfa, salmon oil, chicory root, dehydrated organic kelp, pumpkin, carrots, spinach, turnip greens, apples, cranberries, saskatoon berries, black currants, choline chloride, psyllium, licorice root, angelica root, fenugreek, marigold flowers, sweet fennel, peppermint leaf, chamomile flowers, dandelion, summer savory, rosemary, sea salt, vitamin supplements (vitamin A, vitamin D3, vitamin E, niacin, vitamin C, thiamine mononitrate, riboflavin, vitamin B5, vitamin B6, folic acid, biotin, vitamin B12), mineral supplements (zinc proteinate, iron proteinate, manganese proteinate, copper proteinate, selenium), dried Lactobacillus acidophilus, dried Enterococcus faecium fermentation product.
> 
> Heres what in chicken-
> 
> Chicken
> 
> Theres no fooling around. Your dogs using almost all of it. Smaller poops, less smelly.


Unfortunately due to the uncertainty of the nutritional value of the processed meats -

vitamin A, vitamin D3, vitamin E, niacin, vitamin C, thiamine mononitrate, riboflavin, vitamin B5, vitamin B6, folic acid, biotin, vitamin B12), mineral supplements (zinc proteinate, iron proteinate, manganese proteinate, copper proteinate, selenium

are necessary to make even this fine product a complete and balanced food.

Completely agree about the botanics. Yuck.


----------



## RawFedDogs

Foodie said:


> I never heard that 85% figure, do you have a source for your information or link?


Thats been around for 7 or 8 years. I'll look around and see what I can find. Best I remember it was on a kibble web page. 



> I admit the clean teeth aspect is definitely a positive for raw feeding but I have found that if kibble is put into a rubber treat dispensing toy (with nubs), the dog will manipulate that rubber toy in his mouth to get the food and essentially brushes his teeth.


That MAY work. I don't know. I haven't heard it before but it makes sense. I think it makes more sense to feed dogs a proper food and let the food itself clean the teeth.



> I really don't have periodontal disease or plaque here and I think some kibble foods are better than others when it comes to plaque.


I don't have any concrete evidence but I suspect you are right. I think kibbles with more carbs will cause more problems faster. It's mainly the carbs that the bacteria in the mouth feed on.



> This is your opinion I might listen up more if you stated such.


It's not an opinion. It's been proven over a million years of evolution.



> There's always something to learn about any topic and I hope to keep current in my knowledge about nutrition. It's pretty condescending of you to say I have a lot to learn about canine nutrition


Well don't think you are the first one to accuse me of that. :smile:



> and I would bet my knowledge surpasses yours in this field.


I seriously doubt that.



> I'm open minded to different feeding methods and since your already convinced that there is only one superior way to feed dogs then I would say your learning is limited.


I have my knowledge from years of personal experience and talking directly to the experts in the field as well as taking some college courses. Again, MY way is backed up by a million years of evolution. You see, kibble is the new kid on the block. It is the fad diet. 

For some strange reason, no one ever asks kibble companies to prove their food is as nutritious as the food I feed my dogs. Everyone seems to expect me to prove "my" food is better.



> Commercial dog food is constantly changing and what you fed your dogs years ago just doesn't apply today. Thank you for the book recommendation, I'll consider it.


You are absolutely correct. Kibble of today is vastly superior to the kibble I fed my dogs 9+ years ago. However, I would like you to find a nutritionist, that doesn't work for a dog food company, that will state that highly processed cereal with many inappropriate ingredients and sometimes dangerous ingredients is in any way superior to whole fresh foods. Kibble of today is still inferior to raw meat, bones and organs. There is just no logical argument any other way.


----------



## jdatwood

Foodie said:


> I never heard that 85% figure, do you have a source for your information or link?


Not very hard to find... 
periodontal disease in dogs 85% - Google Search


----------



## luvMyBRT

Foodie said:


> Unfortunately there isn't a good forum for people to get help with feeding kibble. :frown:


Ummmm....have you even been over to the dry and canned food section of the forum? Whenever I'm over there I see tons of great posts from very helpful, knowledgeable kibble feeders. You must have missed it.....


----------



## jdatwood

Don't sweat it Sara... methinks we have a troll among us :wink:


----------



## 3Musketeers

Foodie said:


> When I said loose stools _seem _commonplace I'm speaking about my observations taken from what I've read on several forums (including this thread btw) and from what I've heard from people that I know who feed raw.


This is because most people go on forums to get help when something goes wrong. 
Try to imagine what would happen if people posted about how great their dog's poops are, almost every post, every day, would be about that and it would start to get very redundant, boring, and spammy. It just doesn't happen.


----------



## xxshaelxx

*cough*



> conclusion |kənˈkloō zh ən|
> noun
> 1 the end or finish of an event or process : the conclusion of World War Two.
> • the summing-up of an argument or text.
> • the settling or arrangement of a treaty or agreement : the conclusion of a free-trade accord.
> 2 a judgment or decision reached by reasoning : each research group came to a similar conclusion.
> • Logic a proposition that is reached from given premises.
> PHRASES
> in conclusion lastly; to sum up : in conclusion it is clear that the market is maturing.
> *jump (or leap) to conclusions make a hasty judgment before learning or considering all the facts.*


 It's called "jumping to conclusions" when you conclude that my dogs pooped on the neighbor's lawn when I never said where they actually pooped (ie. sidewalk or lawn). It's called "jumping to conclusions" when you conclude that the poop was really loose when I never said whether it was firm or loose. 



xxshaelxx said:


> when I'd go on walks, if they'd stop to poop, I wouldn't have to apologize to the next three rows of neighbors *for the smell.*


Nowhere in there does it state what shape the poop was in.



Foodie said:


> Loose stools seem commonplace with raw feeding, not just when dogs are in the process of switching like you say. It must not be that easy for the average person to feed this diet correctly, it's not a diet I would recommend for everyone for this reason.


You've never fed a raw diet. So you jump to conclusions when you say that it's not that easy to feed this way.





> condescending |ˌkändəˈsendi ng |
> adjective
> acting in a way that betrays a feeling of patronizing superiority : she thought the teachers were arrogant and condescending.





Foodie said:


> *I can see that you can count (first of all, second of all etc.) but your communication skills are lacking.*





Foodie said:


> I'll repeat this once again, the looser the stool the more it stinks, a firm stool shouldn't reek. If your dogs poop _stank_ that much then one, it wasn't firm enough, two, *your exaggerating again or three, your not truthful* or you have a negative recollection based on your bias for raw poop.* I find a lot of raw feeders embellish the truth*.





Foodie said:


> If your dog had bad gas then you were using the wrong kibble for your dog. *Please don't give advice in other parts of the forum that don't have anything to do with raw feeding*.





Foodie said:


> I'm not trying to change anyone's mind about feeding raw or convert them to kibble, where do you get that??? I rarely come to this forum but when I do it's with the intent on learning. It's impossible to voice one's opinion on this forum if it goes against the grain. Let people voice their opinion and let it go.* This thread struck me as funny and it's laughable that you found it stickey worthy, lol.* Now if this experiment was conducted in a more scientific manner it may have been interesting and a learning experience but *instead it's serves to discredit your credibility and yet you showcase it, lol.*



_________________________________________________________________________





Foodie said:


> I'm sorry but I can't believe a raw fed poop will crumble up into _grainy bits _within a few hours, _messed with_ or not. I know people who feed raw and I've seen poop from raw fed dogs, some of it looks minimally processed and far from _bits_, maybe that's why I think raw fed poop looks gross. I suppose if I added bone meal to my dogs kibble it would disintegrate faster but contrary to what people believe here, bone is not a healthy food item. A lot of heavy metals and toxins are found in bone, fluoride is one and it can cause many cancers primarily osteosarcoma, a fast and fatal cancer that's all too common in larger dogs.


Once again, jumping to conclusions. You're assuming that our dogs' poop are the same as your acquaintances' dogs' poops, yet you've never seen our dogs' poops. And if you didn't notice, the dog in question in this thread pooped a VERY small piece, and it was VERY firm, DIDN'T look only "minimally processed," and DID crumble within several days of these pictures being taken, exactly how Nat has described it. That's exactly what my dogs' poop does within a few days.

And by the way, there are MANY substances in kibble that can lead to cancer as well, and kibble leads to periodontal disease rather quickly (by the age of three). I didn't hear 85%, but I have a book that states, I do believe, one in every three dogs develops periodontal disease by the time it's three years old. Even if that's only 33%, a much lower number than what's been previously stated, that's still a LOT of dogs!




3Musketeers said:


> This is because most people go on forums to get help when something goes wrong.
> Try to imagine what would happen if people posted about how great their dog's poops are, almost every post, every day, would be about that and it would start to get very redundant, boring, and spammy. It just doesn't happen.


On another note...I don't ever hear kibble feeders exclaiming about their dogs' poops. Only if they venture into our kibble vs. raw poop thread to try and discredit what we know and have seen coming from our dogs and their diet.


----------



## CorgiPaws

My response to this one is gonna require an actual pc... HTC Evo just can't handle it... lol


----------



## RawFedDogs

jdatwood said:


> Don't sweat it Sara... methinks we have a troll among us :wink:


Just because someone posts with opinions different from most of us doesn't make him a troll. If he sincerely believes what he is posting and I think he does, then he will be allowed to post them. His arguments have some form of logic behind them even if the logic is flawed.


----------



## jdatwood

I never called anyone out by name so don't act like I did

I'm posting my observations.... His/her posts have been troll like all year. I'm sorry you can't see that someone is posting simply to ruffle your feathers

And I sincerely believe what I posted as well...


----------



## DaneMama

RawFedDogs said:


> Just because someone posts with opinions different from most of us doesn't make him a troll. If he sincerely believes what he is posting and I think he does, then he will be allowed to post them. His arguments have some form of logic behind them even if the logic is flawed.


Of course everyone here is entitled to their opinions. But they should be presented in a positive and respectful manner, which at least I can say (as well as a few other members) saw foodie's first few posts as pretty darn rude.



jdatwood said:


> I never called anyone out by name so don't act like I did
> 
> I'm posting my observations.... His/her posts have been troll like all year. I'm sorry you can't see that someone is posting simply to ruffle your feathers
> 
> And I sincerely believe what I posted as well...


I have to agree with Jon on this. Just look at foodie's post history. Hasn't made a post in 6 months and just randomly makes a mocking and rude post in the raw forum? While his posts weren't "breaking the rules" here, this members actions prove to be "troll like" in Internet lingo. Why post up the way he/she did? ONE reason, and ONE reason only...TO STIR THE POT. This isn't necessarily a bad thing but I think foodie went about it the COMPLETELY wrong way.

As you can see from post history, not the best track record:

http://dogfoodchat.com/forum/search.php?searchid=119942


----------



## magicre

i thought, when this thread was first started...now here's a great way to make an objective comparison....

not just an opinion, but an experiment, using two, i presume healthy dogs...one kibble fed, one raw fed...

i thought it fascinating....

since i do feed raw and i get distracted easily, i admit i haven't been following this thread for a little while because the point was proven, as far as i'm concerned.....and my raw fed dogs poop their small poops, sometimes too dry, sometimes too wet...but it depends on what i feed them and if i oops and feed too much bone or not enough.....it corrects within a day, so i don't worry about it....

my dogs poo does smell....not like it did when they were on kibble...but there is an odour...

i am reminded....that when humans go to the doctor ...one of the first things we are asked is how are our bowels? and a few questions pertaining to blood, odour, consistency....and mainly because certain answers will cause the doctor to either move on or further explore....it is a sign of health to have a certain kind of bowel movement for humans; therefore, when i go to the vet with my dogs and hear the same questions, i take it as gospel that poo is either a sign of health or a symptom of disease, depending on the adjectives used to describe.

so, to me, this thread is important...

foodie....whether you feed kibble or not...this is the raw feeding section...i don't see why you're opinion isn't any more or less welcome here than mine...except for one small consideration.

you've never fed raw so you have no idea about this side of the discussion....

nine months ago, if you'd heard me talk about the transition...one would have thought my dogs were dying...they had hershey squirts, etc...i've been on kibble forums where people were making the same mistakes i was....overfeeding, making too many changes too soon.....

once we get educated, the fear goes away and these things stop.....no more hershey squirts from my raw fed dogs....and raw feeders and kibble feeders will brainstorm to try to find the compatible food for any dog...because we love dogs....

there are a lot of people whose posts start out with....i just got a new puppy and i don't know what to do OR i've never had a dog before....in both kibble and raw sections...

if you want to see dust in the wind poo, then come on over to my house.....i'll make you tea and lunch...and take my dogs for their poo walk....they are pretty regular these days....and you can see my back yard for yourself.....or you can see them poo....we'll conduct our own experiment....i'll tell you what i fed them the day before and i'll then tell you what consistency i expect...nine times out of ten, unless i'm having a brain fog day, their poo will be exactly what i think it will be.

i enjoy a debate...and i enjoy differing opinions....just keep in mind, please, that everyone has one....for us, this sticky is most helpful to beginner raw feeders...and i should think kibble feeders would want something like this for comparison and ease of mind, too...

i've already been kicked out of a few kibble forums, so please do not think for one second that kibble feeders are as kind and welcoming to different opinions as you think they are.....every one has a crooked halo...


----------



## RawFedDogs

jdatwood said:


> I never called anyone out by name so don't act like I did


I didn't say you called anyone by name but you didn't have to. It is very obvious who you are talking about. This is name calling and we both know what happens when name calling starts.



> I'm posting my observations.... His/her posts have been troll like all year. I'm sorry you can't see that someone is posting simply to ruffle your feathers


You can post all the observations you wish without name calling and using silly graphics to further insult.



> And I sincerely believe what I posted as well...


No one doubts that. If you don't like his posts, don't read them. This ends discussion about trolling. Further posts about it in this thread will be deleted.


----------



## Shamrockmommy

I have been able to experience side by side comparison- been petsitting a neighbor's cocker spaniel, Bella, for a week now, and until Jan 3. 

They brought her with a supply of Nutro Lamb/Rice. First of all- FART! She can stink up a room in no time at all, and I have been constantly lookng for that errant poop in the room- thankfully, no poop, just gas, but holy cow!

Next poop- hers has been from slightly formed to soft serve and the smell is extremely offensive!

My raw fed dogs, I can stand right next to them as they poop and not smell much odor at all. it is certainly not offensive. Bella kibble poop is offensive if youare within 20' of her, much less nose height standing next to her.

The kibble poop stays gushy and rank for days. Yesterday after her stinking up the house again, I switched her cold turkey right to raw. If I have to have this dog another 12 days, it's going to be with clean air and better poop. Tryign to pooper scoop up that glop has been disgusting.

Contrast this with my raw fed dogs- muchless poop, formed and easy to scoop, non offensive odor, absolutely NO gas at all. 

Given the choice of a kibble fed or raw fed dog poop to scoop- raw fed hands down.
On that note, I can't believe we're this indepth on poop LOL! :biggrin:


----------



## CorgiPaws

Alright, folks, sorry I'm late to the party....




Foodie said:


> I'll repeat this once again, the looser the stool the more it stinks, a firm stool shouldn't reek. If your dogs poop _stank_ that much then one, it wasn't firm enough, two, your exaggerating again or three, your not truthful or you have a negative recollection based on your bias for raw poop. I find a lot of raw feeders embellish the truth.


Good job, you can count too!!

I work with dogs- a lot of dogs, on a daily basis. I've seen all kinds of poop. Big poop, small poop, hard poop, liquid poop. 
I have certainly had, on a number of occasions, dogs dropping solid logs that could make paint peel! While, sure, it probably would have smelled worse if it were lose, do not be so ignorant as to think solid poo can't stink. 
Poop is poop.




Foodie said:


> No thanks on trying the raw diet for a week, my dogs are healthy on kibble and I like the convenience and cleanliness.


So you admit that you feed a highly processed, unregulated diet to your pets out of convenience and cleanliness? Poor dogs. 
The difference between raw feeders posting up in the kibble section, and kibble feeders posting up here is simple. 
We have all, at some point, fed kibble. Most of us have had such awful experiences with it, searching high and low for just one that would "work" for our dogs, to no avail. Thus, we sought out something better- something ideal- for our carnivores, and at some time, for many of us on this very forum, stumbled upon raw feeding. 
You, on the other hand, post how ideal, clean, and convenient kibble is, spouting off about the flaws (in YOUR eyes) of raw feeding, and how kibble is oh so fantastic- entirely unwilling to even try it. And why? Because "most people can't do it right?"
You base your theories against raw on the questions people post while starting out, focusing entirely on the negative. Loose stools happen- they happen on any kind of diet. Most people, once grasping two of three very basic guidelines have no issues with raw. 
Perhaps check out the success stories thread. See how many dogs lives have been SAVED by raw feeding, when commercial foods (these super awesome high quality ones you speak of) were literally killing them slowly. 



Foodie said:


> That's remarkable and if it's true I want to see it. I want to see it untouched, laying on the ground just how it was made, turning to dust, with time documentation, that would be fantastic!!!


A few hours, no. Two or so days- yes. 
I had four dogs in Las Vegas, and a not very big yard, I never "poop scooped" my yard... and there were NEVER big piles out there. two or three from that day, sure. 
If you really have nothing better to do (which you've made rather obvious) come to my place. Annie poops about 11pm every night, you're more than welcome to sit by it and watch. 



Foodie said:


> I can't tell you how many times I was searching for a fresh poop and I stepped right on it, nothing on my shoe. My dogs poop remains hard even in the rain! For some reason raw feeders seem to think feeding raw is the only way a dog can have a firm normal poop, not so!


Again, I work with plenty of dogs. 
Even healthy kibble poop, from a grain free fed dog, stinks like crap. Raw poo isn't entirely odorless, at least, my dogs isn't. It smells kind of... musky. Not strong, not even bad, really. But I can smell it. 

WHat I am amused with is that we have like three pages of "NO! My dog's poop smells less!"
It's poop, folks. And no one will ever grasp the difference with raw poop, until they actually take the time to try raw out for their pet. 



Foodie said:


> Bring what on? There's more than one way to feed a dog unfortunately raw feeders don't understand that.


Oh, well, sure.... 
I could give a rabbit a steak, too. 
Doesn't mean it makes sense. 


I really just don't GET it!
How can anyone in their right minds feel that a food so precessed it looks NOTHING like what it's supposed to be, smells NOTHING like the main ingredients, and is dry, processed nuggets could even touch raw, whole foods?!
How?
Nothing about it makes sense!
What's healthier for you? A fresh chicken breast? Or breaded, fried chicken nuggets? Yes, they're both chicken. They both hold some nutritional value, but one is whole and nutritious, while the other is processed, with added ingredients that greatly reduce the nutritional value. 




Foodie said:


> I noticed that whenever someone on this forum doesn't like a response that explains why someone wrote what they did, it's called rude and condescending.


Foodie, it's not that people disagree with you, there's PLENTY of members here who opt to feed kibble rather than raw, and they are very respected, valued members of this forum. If it seems like raw dominates, look around you- the raw community here is huge, and makes up more than half of the entire community. 
The way you posted was rude, entirely, and you can not expect anything else when you post in such a rude manner. 




Foodie said:


> I have no interest in debating which method of feeding is better but it's obvious that this is something raw feeders here like to do (your post is a good example). There is more than one way to feed a dog and I accept your choice to feed raw and I'm not trying to convince you to feed kibble so why not accept others decisions to feed what they want? If you don't believe this forum does this then you need to open your eyes.


Feed what you want, no one is telling you otherwise. 
However, when you come to the RAW section, and claim that the benefits aren't real, and are fabricated by raw feeders, expect a response. We are a passionate group, with absolutely NOTHING to gain when it comes to what you or anyone else feeds. 




Foodie said:


> When I said loose stools _seem _commonplace I'm speaking about my observations taken from what I've read on several forums (including this thread btw) and from what I've heard from people that I know who feed raw.


People post when they have issues. 
If I posted a new thread every time my girls pooped solid stools, or every time I looked at their clean, white teeth, or every time I got doggie kisses without doggie breath, surely you would have a different stance on what is commonplace, and what's not. 



Foodie said:


> I have found that if kibble is put into a rubber treat dispensing toy (with nubs), the dog will manipulate that rubber toy in his mouth to get the food and essentially brushes his teeth. I


Oh, so that's all you have to do, huh? 
Sounds... annoying. 




Foodie said:


> When I said loose stools _seem _commonplace I'm speaking about my observations taken from what I've read on several forums (including this thread btw) and from what I've heard from people that I know who feed raw. Never said anything about constant loose stools. No personal knowledge or experience with feeding raw here, I don't believe I said I was experienced with feeding raw, why so rude and condescending? Hmmm....


No, but you DID say you wouldn't ever give advice on something you were not experienced with. Raw, being one of them. Yet here you are. Silly goose. 




Foodie said:


> Unfortunately there isn't a good forum for people to get help with feeding kibble. :frown: Many people don't know how to pick a good kibble and most kibble choices are made based on hype and marketing.


Well, we have a pretty good kibble and canned forum, and every raw feeder on here has given very sound advice without so much as hinting to raw.


----------



## magicre

actually, yesterday, just for the hell of it, as i bagged my corgi's poo....we were walking and it's the polite thing to do...i smelled it...which i don't do anymore and i don't need to, because when on kibble, the smell came to me...

and, no surprise --- it smelled kind of like lamb....which is what they ate the night before.....not even farty lamb, but lamb....

i won't deny that my dogs fart and sometimes they are awesome farts...but it's my bad when i mix an egg with smelt and tripe....LOL..

but in our family, farts are just that....humans fart...i don't see why dogs shouldn't....on occasion....certainly i can't say that my Sh*t don't stink...and i'm one of the healthiest eaters i know...


----------



## Foodie

I haven't read all the responding posts as most of what is being said is the same over and over (ad nauseum). If someone has already made the point you wanted to make then why restate it? Yes, this is a forum for raw feeders and it isn't surprising that another opinion is drowned out by your numbers. There _is_ a danger in not listening to points of view that don't coincide with what you believe in. I never said kibble was better than food in it's natural state or that one method of feeding was better than the other (the jury is still out on that one) I said your "experiment" is grossly flawed. You shouldn't try to compare a stool with a fecal score of 100 to one that is close to 50 and you shouldn't manipulate the samples (at all). 

A properly fed dog on kibble can _consistently_ have a firm stool with a fecal score of 100 that is clean to pick up, clean when you step on it (even after a rain) and very low odor. At least there were some posters that could be honest about consistency, a diet that is varied will result in a stool that is variable. If I loaded up my dogs with dietary bone I could expect the stool to "turn to dust" faster but there are other ingredients in kibble that can bind that are much safer than bones in the long run (do your research). There is no scientific proof that feeding a raw diet will increase the longevity of a dog.


----------



## magicre

um, foodie....this thread IS in the raw feeding section.....wouldn't that account for the sheer numbers?

i'm reading a thread in the kibble/canned food section that has five pages of whether or not moisture should be added to dry kibble....i have no answer for it, i was just reading it...but five pages just means it's a lively discussion....i didn't see any raw feeders going in and saying they are killing their dogs and why aren't you just feeding raw which has all the moisture a dog could ever want....

the beginning of this thread was an experiment by one of our posters....no harm, no foul....and we appreciated it....everyone needs confirmation or validation...especially amongst those of us who never fed raw, who are changing a way of thinking.....or just got their first dog....we want to know everything....

and we should try to know as much as possible...these dogs are g'd willing, going to be with us for at least a decade.....

when i fed kibble, i studied kibble....when i fed home cooked, i studied that...when i came to my senses to find what made the most sense for me, i feed raw.....it was an evolutionary road i travelled and it took years....

if you've not fed raw, then you have nothing to add to this conversation which was doing fine until you came along....

you don't know what you're talking about. simple as that. 

if you have fed raw and just want to argue, then go ahead....we have plenty of feisty folks both here and on the kibble forum who are more than willing to take you on...

otherwise, contribute to the discussion based on knowledge and experience....you're more than welcome...but let's stay on track here.....

and to my knowledge, whether or not there is proof my dog will live longer is not the goal.

i want my dog, while he and she live, to live a quality life, and my studies have led me here.


----------



## luvMyBRT

Foodie said:


> If I loaded up my dogs with dietary bone I could expect the stool to "turn to dust" faster but there are other ingredients in kibble that can bind that are much safer than bones in the long run (do your research). There is no scientific proof that feeding a raw diet will increase the longevity of a dog.


This is laughable. Saying that kibble is safer than feeding whole, raw, fresh foods fit for human consumption. The "binders" in kibble are usually not even useful to a dog. Bones provide calcium and keep a dogs teeth clean. Wild carnivores have been eating raw bones for hundreds of years with no problems.

Like Re said, when it comes to feeding a dog raw, you have NO idea what your talking about.

Why don't YOU go and do YOUR research.....


----------



## cprcheetah

Foodie said:


> There is no scientific proof that feeding a raw diet will increase the longevity of a dog.


Actually there has been a study on that. 
*Clicky for Lippert-Sapy Study on Canine Longevity Click on the link then it is the 3rd section down, click on it to read the study *
"Lippert-Sapy Study on Canine Longevity: The findings of this study present convincing evidence of the importance of an appropriate natural diet on health and longevity. Statistical analysis of data from the study showed that animals eating a more species appropriate diet lived almost 3-years longer than pets eating commercial pet food products."


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## Foodie

If you believe this study then you must also believe in a similar _epidemiological_ study of canine bloat conducted by Cornell University. :wink:

Here are a few of my observations on this article: 

Most parameters in this study were considered insignificant or "not relevant" (ie. family configuration, origin of the dog etc.) The extremes shown in the family configuration figures were as great as 9 months. If you compare that to the listed average lifespan _(counting all the years, all races and sex together)_ of 138.15 months or about 11.5 years, then 9 months does appear to be significant. I found this explanation interesting in the family configuration section: _"With a single woman with a dog the transfer of the motherly feeling as well as the frequent anthropomorphism can be important we notice this frequently during our visits. As a consequence the animal will be over protected these dogs will very often develop behavior pathologies such as hyper affection which will be a stress factor for the animal." _ Seriously? Single women who show more affection to their dogs are causing them to live shorter lives? 

Origin of the dog: _"The statistics are not significant for this parameter. It is understandable as the environment at the time of the acquisition may no longer be remembered at the time of the dogs dead." _Who doesn't remember where their dog came from? If someone doesn't remember where they got their dog from then do you think they will remember how old it is? The difference in the extremes here is 16 months but the graphic isn't labeled in English so I don't know the particular origins of each parameter. Still, 16 months isn't significant when talking about 11.5 years average lifespan? 

This linked paper claims sterilization promotes longevity but here is a very good (recent) study that contradicts this and IMO an important read for all women: Exploring mechanisms of sex differences in longevity: lifetime ovary exposure and exceptional longevity in dogs - Waters - 2009 - Aging Cell - Wiley Online Library

Now we come to the meat of this study, _"the influence of food served to the dog on the average age of dead"._ 
_"We took into consideration three categories of food
1. Home made With products used from the owner's meals
2. Mixture A mix of home made and industrial food
3. Industrial Retail sold dogs food"_

"_Food is consequently of great importance for the life expectancy of the dog. We can consider that home made food is a protection factor for the domestic dog." _ 

Their very best category, _home made_, only shows a longevity of about 157 months or 13 years, the mix of _home made_ and industrial food 11.4 years and industrial food alone 10.4 years, this is disappointing for dogs in Belgium. I have owned medium to large sized dogs for over 50 years and I have never had a dog that lived less than 12 years old on kibble. The dogs from my more recent past and prior to 1998 have all made it to 14+ years old. What are they feeding in Belgium? These statistics may only apply to Belgium. I have no doubt that fresh food is better than processed, this is common sense and I do supplement my dogs with fresh foods. To say that all commercial dog food is not healthy is not true as evidenced by many dogs (mine included) who are very healthy. This paper also mentions (briefly) that "quality of the basic protein" and "vegetable protein for meat eating animals" as characteristics that probably make a difference and I have to agree with that. An informed consumer in this country can select a commercial food who's protein is predominately from meat and of a good quality. 

No where in this paper does it mention raw food at all. I would love to see some scientific evidence either for or against raw feeding as I'm open to change if a real overall benefit exists. Why should I change the way I feed my dogs if my dogs are exceeding their expected lifespan and are very healthy? More work needs to be done in this field and IMO genetics and vaccinations probably plays more of a role than food when it comes to a dogs health. Even dogs fed Beniful have been known to live very long and full lives.

I want to include one more statement from this paper that makes me scratch my head and might bring this article into perspective: _"Domestication has certain advantages. Not only advantages but also constraints. Diet is one of them especially for meat eating animals, but less of an importance for the domestic cat." _


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## DaneMama

The problem is with scientific studies like this is that you need a whole group of studies all done by different people to get a good baseline of whether or not something is scientifically "proven" to be true. Looking at just one study isn't going to do you any good or give you a well rounded base.

I'd love for there to be many, many scientifically conducted studies to be done on an APPROPRIATE raw diet so that skeptics can see the "proof" they need to feel better about it. But unless some independently wealthy person steps up to the plate (trust me, I'm just waiting to win the lotto to start my study program LOL), no one is going to fund a study such as this because there is no money in it (because what most of the raw feeders here feed isn't a commercial product or name brand).


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## cprcheetah

I actually don't need a scientific study to tell me that Raw is the best diet out there for Carnivores, every day I see/read/hear of COUNTLESS testimonials of dogs who are healthy & strong at 14 & 15 years old and have eaten raw every day of their lives, I see of dogs like my Zoey who are 100x healthier than she EVER dreamed of being on kibble in just a few short months. To me that is all the *proof* I need that Raw is healthier, better and just plain good for them JMHO. I don't need studies to tell me kibble is crap, I can see that by the output (aka poop) I clean up on a daily basis at work (Vet/doggie daycare)....kibble poop is absolutely DISGUSTING, the cheaper the kibble the worse, smelly, large, squishy, disgusting the poop. JMHO.


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## DaneMama

cprcheetah said:


> I actually don't need a scientific study to tell me that Raw is the best diet out there for Carnivores, every day I see/read/hear of COUNTLESS testimonials of dogs who are healthy & strong at 14 & 15 years old and have eaten raw every day of their lives, I see of dogs like my Zoey who are 100x healthier than she EVER dreamed of being on kibble in just a few short months. To me that is all the *proof* I need that Raw is healthier, better and just plain good for them JMHO. I don't need studies to tell me kibble is crap, I can see that by the output (aka poop) I clean up on a daily basis at work (Vet/doggie daycare)....kibble poop is absolutely DISGUSTING, the cheaper the kibble the worse, smelly, large, squishy, disgusting the poop. JMHO.


I totally agree with you 100% but all I'm saying is that it would be awesome to have the scientific research to show the skeptics proof that raw is best. Although the day this happens will be the day that a lot of kibble companies get a bit scared about staying in business.


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## xxshaelxx

Danemama, when I write my book and get stinking rich, I'll fund your experiments. XD Do a study on a LARGE group of dogs all from reputable breeders, all free of genetic defects, all of the same breed, fed different things (raw included), and we'll see which dogs live the longest. 

As for the study, dogs, on average, lived about 10.4 years, or whatever the statistic was, but did you forget to take into account that some may have died early, such as 7-8, because they passed away due to problems related to dietary health?

And Foodie, I had two dogs, LARGE mixed breeds, fed the most rotten of kibbles, one overweight, that lived to be 13 years old and died of old age. Do I believe they were healthy? Yes. Do I believe they were thriving? No. Do I believe they could have lived longer on a raw diet? Oh boy do I!


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## cprcheetah

danemama08 said:


> I totally agree with you 100% but all I'm saying is that it would be awesome to have the scientific research to show the skeptics proof that raw is best. Although the day this happens will be the day that a lot of kibble companies get a bit scared about staying in business.


I would LOVE there to be more scientific studies on raw diet, but the sad truth of the matter is unless there is a major benefactor who is willing to fund such a study, I doubt there will ever be one as you said, the kibble companies would get scared. SO until then, we have to rely on our experiences and the experiences we hear from others.


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## luvMyBRT

Let's see.....I fed my dogs kibble for 9 years. Yes, 9 years. So, I have 9 years of experience with kibble feeding. I have 9 years of smelling the doggie smell, smelling the bad dog breath, smelling and cleaning up huge piles of kibble poop, and paying for dentals where the grand total would come to hundreds of dollars.

Thank you very much, but I am done with that. Been there, done that.

My dogs have been on raw for 4 months. So, I have 4 months of experience with raw feeding. I have switched my 11 year old GSH Pointer. She ate kibble her entire life up until 4 months ago. With her I NO LONGER have to smell her doggie smell, her breath has no odor and her huge kibble poops are a thing of the past. Her teeth are so clean now, that I no longer need to budget for a dental.

I too wish that there was actual scientific studies that showed proof. It sure gets annoying arguing with these "skeptics" who claim to know it all, but who have never fed a dog raw and seen the amazing results.


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## xxshaelxx

saraj2878 said:


> Her teeth are so clean now, that I no longer need to budget for a dental.


Isn't that a benefit?!!!! I can definitely see the benefit there! :biggrin::biggrin::biggrin::biggrin:

Oh, and Foodie, for your information, Sara fed the high end kibbles, not junk.


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## RawFedDogs

Foodie said:


> No where in this paper does it mention raw food at all. I would love to see some scientific evidence either for or against raw feeding as I'm open to change if a real overall benefit exists.


The thing that irks me over and over and no one has a satisfactory answer is why the heck don't you ask the dog food companies to prove their product is as good as a diet of raw meat, bones, and organs? A PMR diet has been around for a million years and dogs/wolves have thrived all this time on this diet. About 60 years ago this kibble junk came along and all of a sudden vet's offices are full of overweight allergic dogs with serious digestive problems (pancreatitis, colitis, ibd, ibs, etc) and periodontal problems. These problems didn't exist to any great extent 100 years ago. BUT people have to say, "Prove that PMR is as good as the kibble that causes all the above listed health problems." PMR has proved itself over and over thoughout eons of time. Artificial dog food has proved not one iota about anything. Does that not make you wonder?



> Why should I change the way I feed my dogs if my dogs are exceeding their expected lifespan and are very healthy?


The expected lifespan you are comparing your dogs to is other kibble fed dogs. Wouldn't it be nice if you could compare your dog's lifespans to that of raw fed dogs? Do you think it would change the results? I do.



> More work needs to be done in this field and IMO genetics and vaccinations probably plays more of a role than food when it comes to a dogs health.


If you compare 1,000 dogs, all that stuff should equal out.



> Even dogs fed Beniful have been known to live very long and full lives.


Compared to other kibble fed dogs.



> I want to include one more statement from this paper that makes me scratch my head and might bring this article into perspective: _"Domestication has certain advantages. Not only advantages but also constraints. Diet is one of them especially for meat eating animals, but less of an importance for the domestic cat." _


I am confused by that statement also. Having worked for many years for a Japanese company, I know quite often that things are confused in translation from one language to another. I was common in my job.


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## magicre

without going into science versus anecdote...i can tell you there isn't a doctor in the world or a cop or nurse who doesn't believe there are things that happen on a full moon....more babies are born, crime rates go up and a plethora of unusual statistics go awry...

every scientific study has blown what we know to be true out of the water and scientifically the lunar tides and the full moon have no effects...

sometimes it's not a matter of science....

sometimes it's simply a matter of objective observation....there are too many people around the world feeding raw and reporting their findings on these forums....and lists and groups.....out loud, publicly....

quite frankly.....i don't need science to tell me that the full moon phenomenon is real, and my dogs fare better fed raw...

i've seen it, dealt with it..and journaled daily about feeding raw....my vets marvel at my dogs' health and i marvel at my dogs.....i don't need science to confirm or deny what i see with my own eyes, along with thousands of others....

again.....come back when you've fed your dogs raw and then we can have a true and balanced debate.


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## bumblegoat

I believe that it isn't really up to the raw feeders to proove anything anyway; the burden of proof should lie on those who feed kibble (or canned). _They_ are the ones who are feeding something that doesn't make sense, _they_ are the ones going against what nature intended.

As has been pointed out in a humorous thread by CorgiPaws; raw feeding _just makes sense._

But of course, I do agree that some well performed studies on raw would make life easier for us when trying to convince others!


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## lmgakg

*Question...*



Muck said:


> Orijen Adult (six star kibble) I underlined the ingredients that are in my opinion filler. This is probably one of the best foods out there but there is still stuff a dog doesnt need in it. It might not hurt the dog but its not going to add anything to their health.Its just going to come out in there *POOP* and make it bigger, smelly.
> 
> Fresh boneless chicken, chicken meal, turkey meal, russet potato, fresh pacific salmon (a natural source of DHA and EPA), herring meal, sweet potato, peas, fresh lake whitefish, fresh northern walleye, chicken fat (naturally preserved with vitamin E and citric acid), chicken liver, salmon meal, fresh turkey, fresh whole eggs, fresh deboned herring, sun-cured alfalfa, salmon oil, chicory root, dehydrated organic kelp, pumpkin, carrots, spinach, turnip greens, apples, cranberries, saskatoon berries, black currants, choline chloride, psyllium, licorice root, angelica root, fenugreek, marigold flowers, sweet fennel, peppermint leaf, chamomile flowers, dandelion, summer savory, rosemary, sea salt, vitamin supplements (vitamin A, vitamin D3, vitamin E, niacin, vitamin C, thiamine mononitrate, riboflavin, vitamin B5, vitamin B6, folic acid, biotin, vitamin B12), mineral supplements (zinc proteinate, iron proteinate, manganese proteinate, copper proteinate, selenium), dried Lactobacillus acidophilus, dried Enterococcus faecium fermentation product.
> 
> Heres what in chicken-
> 
> Chicken
> 
> Theres no fooling around. Your dogs using almost all of it. Smaller poops, less smelly.


Okay - I'm new here and trying to learn a thing or two and at this point, I feel like I just wasted 20 minutes of my life that I will never get back by reading that bickering back and forth about who is right and who has the dog with the better poop (very childlike, I thought...) 

Anyway, I totally respect everyone doing their own thing and whatever works for you - AWESOME!!! Keep it up if it works. I have NO experience with the "raw" diet and in fact, I asked it to be explained in a different post. I am very interested in everyone's opinons and experiences with what they have tried and what has worked and hasn't worked. Everyone is different as is every dog....what may work for one may not work for another. 

I'm very open-minded and mean no disrespect with my questions, but I'm simply trying to gain knowledge through others' experiences rather than books/commercials and others "selling" a product, whether it be a grocery store bag of food, pet store can or this "raw" diet. 

So when I read this post that I quoted (I hope I am doing this right!) I was confused because it says that the underlined things are what they consider fillers.....but when I read the ingredients I noticed a lot of things that I would consider fillers (maybe I'm wrong - please correct me if u think I am) such as the "______ meal." I would think that would be more chemically produced and be worse than the "potato" or the actual veg/fruit. I'm vegan, but I am grossed out way more by eggproduct than by eggs and by chickenmeal than by chicken...because I'm vegan for the common sense reason, I want what I eat to be natural - I want to be able to identify it, not something produced in a lab somewhere or pumped with chemicals - which unfortunately is what lots (I'm not saying all) of food these days is. I mean I know that a dog is from the wolf and they are meat eaters, but is chickenmeal actually chicken or is it like chicken flavoring?????? 

Personally, I apologize to my neighbor all the time, one of my dogs is only 10 pounds so his poop is minimal and I barely pick it up because it's so small and I can't usually find it! He eats Nutro dry food. My other dog is prob about 70 pounds and his poop is enormous - luckily he only poops on the side of the house but in the summer, i have to pick it up every time he goes or you can smell it from down the street!!! He also is on Nutro dry food. It's pretty solid and he seems very regular, but I'm just not sure..... 

Can you explain a bit more about the meals please and why you didn't choose those as fillers??? Again, I know dogs are not vegetarians, however, my two think it's totally awesome when I give them a carrot for a treat and I think it's better for them than giving them a "beggin strip" or something else flavored with and created in a lab.


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## RawFedDogs

lmgakg said:


> So when I read this post that I quoted (I hope I am doing this right!) I was confused because it says that the underlined things are what they consider fillers.....but when I read the ingredients I noticed a lot of things that I would consider fillers (maybe I'm wrong - please correct me if u think I am) such as the "______ meal." I would think that would be more chemically produced and be worse than the "potato" or the actual veg/fruit.


Meal, in this case "chicken meal" is the ground up reminants of the chicken carcass after the human usuable stuff has been removed. Chicken meal does not contain heads, beaks, feet, feathers, internal organs but does contain a lot of bone and connective tissue and some meat.

"Chicken by-product meal" contains those things like heads, beaks, feet, internal organs like intestines, etc.

Because both of these are derived from animal sources, they are not considered fillers. Because dogs have no dietary need for plant material, the potatoes, etc are considered fillers by many people.

The other meals, such as lamb meal is basically the same thing from different animals. None of these meals contain chemicals but the dog food in general has a LOT of chemicals as you can see on the ingredients list.



> I'm vegan, but I am grossed out way more by eggproduct than by eggs and by chickenmeal than by chicken


There is a great debate going on about whether chicken or chicken meal is the most desirable product. That debate will never be decided until everyone sees things my way. :biggrin:




> Again, I know dogs are not vegetarians, however, my two think it's totally awesome when I give them a carrot for a treat and I think it's better for them than giving them a "beggin strip" or something else flavored with and created in a lab.


IMO dogs like carrots, apples, berries, etc is for the wonderful sugar flavor and not for any nutritional flavor. Same as cake, ice cream, candy, etc is for humans.


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## lmgakg

Ok thank you for that...so basically I'm just confusing meal with byproduct meal. And yes, it's funny, but both dogs and the cat all sit very patiently whenever I'm in the kitchen - they know I'm going to drop something or maybe even hand out a treat (some random veggie/fruit), however it is a "treat" and not a staple, and it is a small piece - based on thier individual size. I really do try to keep a healthy home, based on everyone's needs....that's why I'm so interested in this raw idea. The loose stools make me nervous because my pup went through 4 months of explosive diarrhea all over my walls and cage and himself. He needed 2 baths a day and I needed a lot of vodka! I had every test possible done on him and visited 4 vets who all told me nothing was wrong with him!!! I determined it was the rawhide bones he was eating. Since taking them away he has been much better, thank god! 

So do you suggest just jumping into raw 100% or introducing things slowly??? Also I work all day, so "lunches" are not possible, they get breakfast and dinner. And yes, I'm a cook that doesn't measure anything, however, that was going to be my first question - how much????? I laughed when I read about that in your info sheet!


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## magicre

lmgakg said:


> Ok thank you for that...so basically I'm just confusing meal with byproduct meal. And yes, it's funny, but both dogs and the cat all sit very patiently whenever I'm in the kitchen - they know I'm going to drop something or maybe even hand out a treat (some random veggie/fruit), however it is a "treat" and not a staple, and it is a small piece - based on thier individual size. I really do try to keep a healthy home, based on everyone's needs....that's why I'm so interested in this raw idea. The loose stools make me nervous because my pup went through 4 months of explosive diarrhea all over my walls and cage and himself. He needed 2 baths a day and I needed a lot of vodka! I had every test possible done on him and visited 4 vets who all told me nothing was wrong with him!!! I determined it was the rawhide bones he was eating. Since taking them away he has been much better, thank god!
> 
> So do you suggest just jumping into raw 100% or introducing things slowly??? Also I work all day, so "lunches" are not possible, they get breakfast and dinner. And yes, I'm a cook that doesn't measure anything, however, that was going to be my first question - how much????? I laughed when I read about that in your info sheet!


well, i like that you drink vodka : )

and i agree with your statement about eggproduct vs. a real egg and meal vs. a chicken leg...

as a vegan, i'm sure you've studied quite a bit, since, in order for you to maintain optimal health, you food combine, which is, in itself, very scientific...and objective...it's not just a matter of slapping together beans and quinoa....

dogs are simpler in their build and needs.

take chicken. cut up chicken. feed chicken bones and all.

the only tricky part is the transition and that depends on the dog.

just as beginning a vegan lifestyle takes some research and some steps toward transition, so goes natural feeding for dogs...

if the idea of touching meat blows your mind, there are places that sell plastic gloves (the kind used in delis and such) that you can use...cleanup is a breeze...and it's worth looking into because your lifestyle is natural....so your dogs should be too.

good luck. and i think it's great that you're asking lots of questions...as to us being childlike....yep. it goes that way sometimes LOL

my dogs like carrots, too...and fruit....it's the sugar...albeit natural sugar, it's sugar none the less....leading cause of periodontal disease in dogs...causes them a great deal of discomfort over time, even from the occasional carrot...especially since they don't have the means as in raw meaty bones to clean their teeth.


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## GermanSheperdlover

k9capture_16 said:


> alright, when people ask me about some benefits to raw feeding i commonly bring up poop. I tell them that their poops becomes smaller and turn white within a few days. Then after that commonly they go "huh?" and have no idea what i mean. So i thought what i would do is take one of lincolns poop and rubys poop and document with pictures over the course of 1 week what happens to both poops. So now when someone wonders what we mean when we say they are smaller and turn white etc they can come view it here. I understand this may not be "normal" per say but hey when was normal expected? Lol
> 
> lincoln is a 65 pound dog, who is raw fed
> 
> ruby is a 12 pound dog who is kibble fed with some raw (for these pics i made sure she wasnt fed any raw for one week.) she is on blue buffalo wilderness kibble
> 
> the poops were picked up within 15-20 minutes of each other.
> 
> Lincolns poop on right and rubys poop on left (day one)


so your gonna say this never happens on raw????? Sure it does, the only difference is you won't post it. I would bet anything you were over feeding because this NEVER HAPPENS with my dog NEVER!!!


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## CorgiPaws

GermanSheperdlover said:


> so your gonna say this never happens on raw????? Sure it does, the only difference is you won't post it.


After transition, I've NEVER seen stools like this from my dogs, or any other APPROPRIATELY fed raw fed dog. 

I'm not sure why you come around to dfc, hen every single post you make comes across negative and angry. If you hate it so bad here, then why waste your time? Trolling is not a personable trait. The raw feeding community is NOT out to get you. Seriously, what's your vendetta?


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## RawFedDogs

GermanSheperdlover said:


> so your gonna say this never happens on raw????? Sure it does, the only difference is you won't post it. I would bet anything you were over feeding because this NEVER HAPPENS with my dog NEVER!!!


What you see in the pictures it typical of raw vs. kibble fed dog's poop. Can't help it. It's a fact. I've been raw feeding for 9 years and its always this way.


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## KittyKat

RawFedDogs said:


> What you see in the pictures it typical of raw vs. kibble fed dog's poop. Can't help it. It's a fact. I've been raw feeding for 9 years and its always this way.


Isn't that due to all the extra stuff in kibble, such as carbs?


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## RawFedDogs

Poop is nothing more that the food that the dog can not or has not used. Usually its because its undigestable. In the case of dogs, yes carbs cause larger poops as do fillers that contain no useable nutrition.


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## cprcheetah

My experience...both of these poops are from the EXACT same 4# dog who got into some kibble one day.....the smaller poop is her RAW poop from the day before, the other poop is the kibble poop (kibble was a higher quality one). It was formed...she just danced in it lol.








All 3 of my Raw fed dogs have significantly smaller poops than kibble fed dogs of the same breed/size. I work in a doggie daycare/vet so I see TONS of poop on a daily basis and am quite disgusted in the amount & size that some of these poor dogs poop in a day.


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## CorgiPaws

cprcheetah said:


> I work in a doggie daycare/vet so I see TONS of poop on a daily basis and am quite disgusted in the amount & size that some of these poor dogs poop in a day.


I am ALWAYS amazed at the size stools we see from all the kibble fed dogs at work! Morning cleanup just further seals my decision to feed raw. People always comment having a Great Dane that cleanup must be a chore, and never seem to believe that acutally she poops about two logs the size of my thumb, and that's it! And then it turns to dust in about 3 days and is gone. 
With 4 raw fed dogs at my house, and a NOT very big yard at all, I haven't actually needed to do poo cleanup yet, and I moved going on 3 weeks ago.


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## maplewood

Interestingly enough the largest dog in my house right now is pushing out the next to smallest poops.... Haveing 4 Mastiffs I am very excited about small poo..

Just saying.


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## sozzle

Having read most of the above posts I must disagree one thing, although my dog is raw fed his poos sometimes do smell bad but certainly much less than when on kibble.
Also when on kibble he had what I call 'Pudding Poo' as they were voluminous and squishy, now they are hard and small but he still poos about 4 times a day and they are much easier to collect now on my poop spade. He weighs 81lbs and eats about 2lbs a day split over two meals. Oh and he farts a lot less now too which has got to be a good thing?!


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## RaisingWolves

We are dog sitting a kibble fed dog this weekend, and I do not have the stomach to collect the kibble poop.  It is so smelly, huge, and disgusting! My son is collecting it for me and he commented on how our dog's poops doesn't smell.....We then busted out laughing.:biggrin: It sounds so arrogant to say our dog's poop doesn't smell.:heh:


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## Scarlett_O'

RaisingWolves said:


> We are dog sitting a kibble fed dog this weekend, and I do not have the stomach to collect the kibble poop.  It is so smelly, huge, and disgusting! My son is collecting it for me and he commented on how our dog's poops doesn't smell.....We then busted out laughing.:biggrin: It sounds so arrogant to say our dog's poop doesn't smell.:heh:


I know what you mean!! When we picked up Leo(45-50lbs) he was on kibble(a CRAPPY one at that, ol roy) and i made husband pick up after him!HAHAHA Now, 2 full days of raw latter, and he is having the same size of poop at Rhett(25-30lbs) AND Brody(22lbs)!!:biggrin: and now I cant wait for the inlaws to see the first time that all 3 boys poop and combined its smaller then their 12lbs purina fed MinPin/x!:biggrin1: :heh: :thumb:arty:


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## NicoleSmith

That's a lot of poop. Wow! That really came from a 12 pound dog?


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## 3Musketeers

You'd be surprised. I almost never have to pick up poo (except when it rains and then these brats refuse to go out), but at work sometimes people's dogs will poo in the store and omg, I can definitely see the difference (and I tell *them* where the paper/poo bags are xDD)
Someone's 7lb maltese pooping like 5-6 in. worth of poo versus my dogs at home pooping thumb-sized bits. Or seeing a husky/shepherd make a giant cow-pile, ewwww.


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## Ania's Mommy

My sister-in-law's 6 week old (I know! I know! subject for another post) golden mix poo'ed out the same amount in one sitting that Ania does in a whole day. It was pretty gross. Stinky as heck too. She is fed Pro Plan. You know? The kind of food they feed to "professional" dogs?


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## DoglovingSenior

Hello, I am new to this forum-I'm the senior owner of 2 senior dogs a Rottie & an APBT. I have fed raw for 12 years now & have NEVER thought of going back. When I would go to trials we raw feeders would laugh at the HUGE poop of kibble feeders and my Rotties one 110lbs. and one 92 lbs would only require me to carry one sandwich sized zip lock. )
Something that I have wondered about-usually my dogs poop comes out white & sometimes flakey. I have no idea why but since my raw fed Rotties have lived to be 14, 12 (cancer), I have one now who is 12.5 and an APBT who is 10.5 I do not inlude my first well-bred dog who died from hermangio sarcoma at 8. Except for my first and my APBT the rest were rescues.


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## sadysaneto

DoglovingSenior said:


> Hello, I am new to this forum-I'm the senior owner of 2 senior dogs a Rottie & an APBT. I have fed raw for 12 years now & have NEVER thought of going back. When I would go to trials we raw feeders would laugh at the HUGE poop of kibble feeders and my Rotties one 110lbs. and one 92 lbs would only require me to carry one sandwich sized zip lock. )
> Something that I have wondered about-usually my dogs poop comes out white & sometimes flakey. I have no idea why but since my raw fed Rotties have lived to be 14, 12 (cancer), I have one now who is 12.5 and an APBT who is 10.5 I do not inlude my first well-bred dog who died from hermangio sarcoma at 8. Except for my first and my APBT the rest were rescues.


if it comes out alredy white and flakey, i think u should adjust the bone/meat ratio, by either lowering on bones or increasing on meat


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## DoglovingSenior

*Raw vs Kibble poop*



Foodie said:


> I would love to see a video of raw fed poop _*turning to dust within a few hours*_, don't forget to use your time stamp!
> :biggrin:



Then you would really "die" because sometimes my dogs poop comes out white. I get a lower rate from the company that does my back yard because they say that they don't have to remove poop that can mess up their machinery. The only times in the 12 years that I have been feeding RAW that their poop has been runny is when the are sick! Believe it or not-that's how it is at my house.


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## SharonG

Hi guys,
This is my first time here. I read a lot about raw lately..so I am just reviewing options here. I am all for healthy diet for me and my family (dogs included), but I am not all that convinced about the raw (just yet). I have 2 Bostons, 4y.o and 3.5 y.o.They both on homemade food and are very healthy and good looking, no problems. I am giving them approx. 50-60% meat+ organs, cooked just for few minutes, raw vegies and grains. I know, many think that grains are very bad for dogs. I do just a little barely and rise,I am going to try to remove it next time I cook. Also I give them either raw cow milk or organic yogurt, just little bit a day, they are crazy for it, some grounded seeds and nuts and eggs (whole and raw). I just want to share one observation. My dogs poop is exactly what you are describing here - light colored and becomes dusty in few hours to a day or two. Regarding the amount, I don't have anything at the moment to compare, they poop just right as far as I am concerned. And it does not smell that bad at all. No tartar build up or doggy smell.
I think it has to do with processed food vs. natural. If I eat only Progresso soup and Doritos my body would most likely react in some way (we are not talking about human poop here, right?)


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## magicre

SharonG said:


> Hi guys,
> This is my first time here. I read a lot about raw lately..so I am just reviewing options here. I am all for healthy diet for me and my family (dogs included), but I am not all that convinced about the raw (just yet). I have 2 Bostons, 4y.o and 3.5 y.o.They both on homemade food and are very healthy and good looking, no problems. I am giving them approx. 50-60% meat+ organs, cooked just for few minutes, raw vegies and grains. I know, many think that grains are very bad for dogs. I do just a little barely and rise,I am going to try to remove it next time I cook. Also I give them either raw cow milk or organic yogurt, just little bit a day, they are crazy for it, some grounded seeds and nuts and eggs (whole and raw). I just want to share one observation. My dogs poop is exactly what you are describing here - light colored and becomes dusty in few hours to a day or two. Regarding the amount, I don't have anything at the moment to compare, they poop just right as far as I am concerned. And it does not smell that bad at all. No tartar build up or doggy smell.
> I think it has to do with processed food vs. natural. If I eat only Progresso soup and Doritos my body would most likely react in some way (we are not talking about human poop here, right?)


welcome to the forum...and you're right...if you were to eat canned soup and doritos, your body would pay you back....

that you're feeding your dogs home cooked is better than kibble, in my opinion, but i think you'll find in a few years, the nuts and seeds and raw milk and rice and yoghurt will mess with your dogs' digestive tracts and as they age, it will pay them and you back.

my suggestion would be to read the threads on this forum...i realise that sounds daunting, but there are many worthy threads about raw and about kibble and home cooked...

and then you can make a decision.

regardless of what you decide, in my opinion, since i've fed kibble home cooked and raw, i have seen the most astounding changes in my dogs on raw....with fowl, red meat, fish, bone and organ. and that's it. i would not have believed all the hype had i not done it. and now a year and a half later, i can't imagine feeding a dog any other way.


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## Teresa and Jackpot

> She is fed Pro Plan. You know? The kind of food they feed to "professional" dogs?


Richelle, that is HILARIOUS!!! Thanks for the laugh!

Teresa


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## PennyGreyhuahua

3Musketeers said:


> You'd be surprised. I almost never have to pick up poo (except when it rains and then these brats refuse to go out), but at work sometimes people's dogs will poo in the store and omg, I can definitely see the difference (and I tell *them* where the paper/poo bags are xDD)
> Someone's 7lb maltese pooping like 5-6 in. worth of poo versus my dogs at home pooping thumb-sized bits. Or seeing a husky/shepherd make a giant cow-pile, ewwww.


my dog 12lbs & poos thumb sized bits & no smell while neighbour's chihuahuas & poms (smaller than my Penny) poos horse size poops!! & they stankkkkk even far far away!!!!Poor doggies their owners still in denial that kibble's better than raw!!


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## FairIsleDoxies

I was just wondering why all the poop photos have been removed. We're going to switch in a few days when we pick up our meat and I'm trying to show my hubby some pics of what I'm describing. Is there any way to access them again?


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## hmbutler

FairIsleDoxies said:


> I was just wondering why all the poop photos have been removed. We're going to switch in a few days when we pick up our meat and I'm trying to show my hubby some pics of what I'm describing. Is there any way to access them again?


Hmm good point, I wouldn't have noticed the pictures are gone because I wouldn't have gone back to the beginning! It would be a matter of contacting the poster and asking if they can put them back on their photobucket account. Unfortunately they must've forgotten about this thread (or not realised anyone still read it) and deleted the photos from the account. That's a real shame, because it was those photos that really made me switch to raw as fast as I could!!


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## whiteleo

hmbutler said:


> Hmm good point, I wouldn't have noticed the pictures are gone because I wouldn't have gone back to the beginning! It would be a matter of contacting the poster and asking if they can put them back on their photobucket account. Unfortunately they must've forgotten about this thread (or not realised anyone still read it) and deleted the photos from the account. That's a real shame, because it was those photos that really made me switch to raw as fast as I could!!


The original OP was banned from this site!


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## FairIsleDoxies

hmbutler said:


> It would be a matter of contacting the poster and asking if they can put them back on their photobucket account.


I will try that, thank you!


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## FairIsleDoxies

whiteleo said:


> The original OP was banned from this site!


Silly question....OP??

Oh yes, I see. The original poster...man I was hoping to show my hubby some poop! Never thought I would say that...


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## whiteleo

Original Poster


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## hmbutler

whiteleo said:


> The original OP was banned from this site!


ahh well that would explain it... lol. Anyone else want the task of getting kibble and raw fed dog poops to compare? If I'd had a baggy with me today I could've scooped up the CLEARLY kibble fed poop that was on our walking path... but I'm not really that enthusiastic that I want to touch another dog's poop haha




FairIsleDoxies said:


> man I was hoping to show my hubby some poop! Never thought I would say that...


Oh you will say many things on here that you "never though you would say" haha


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## leilaquinn

So far i'm just starting to "like" my dog's poop. We have beeen super dry and dusty until moving into small amounts of bone and tons of meat and fat. My dog drinks plenty of water but seems to poop 'dry'


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## FairIsleDoxies

hmbutler said:


> ahh well that would explain it... lol. Anyone else want the task of getting kibble and raw fed dog poops to compare? If I'd had a baggy with me today I could've scooped up the CLEARLY kibble fed poop that was on our walking path... but I'm not really that enthusiastic that I want to touch another dog's poop haha [\QUOTE]
> 
> You know, I will take some pictures on the last day of kibble and some more as Lily, my mini dachshund, progresses through switching to PMR. Then I can put them all up. It'll be a couple weeks I imagine, but they'll get here soon enough!


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## cprcheetah

I took a picture of my 4# chihuahua's poops one day when she got some kibble, the 'small' poop is the one from the day before on Raw. I have noticed that she isn't quite as 'rank' on Raw as she was on kibble (poop & urine wise). It's in this thread: http://dogfoodchat.com/forum/raw-feeding/4958-raw-vs-kibble-poop-contains-poop-pictures-13.html


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## DaneMama

The reason why the pictures are gone from the thread is because the OP deleted the pictures from her photobucket album. 

If anyone wants to step up to the plate and collect poo samples to replace the ones originally posted, that would be awesome! I can't get passed sacrificing my dog's health to feed kibble for a week or so just to get pictures :frown:


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## meggels

Since I feed Abbie kibble still, I can get a pic, and then get a pic of Murph's lol...


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## meggels

I really hope no one in my apartment complex sees me bending over with cell phone in hand to get pics of the evidence LOL....I'm sure I'd get some fun nicknames if that happened.


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## CoverTune

Wow.. 16 pages and ONE poop picture, that's disappointing. Was really hoping to get an idea of what healthy, raw dogs, poop looks like.


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## tem_sat

CoverTune said:


> Wow.. 16 pages and ONE poop picture, that's disappointing. Was really hoping to get an idea of what healthy, raw dogs, poop looks like.


Dang, if I read this earlier, I would have taken a picture. Will do tomorrow.


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## DaneMama

CoverTune said:


> Wow.. 16 pages and ONE poop picture, that's disappointing. Was really hoping to get an idea of what healthy, raw dogs, poop looks like.


Unfortunately, the person who did this deleted their photobucket account so we lost all the photos. I personally haven't had time to retake them....I will try and get some taken soon for comparison.


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## tem_sat

For your entertainment, here is today's poo. It likely consists of yesterday's 1/4 lb of ungutted Mackerel.









Enjoy.


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## Sprocket

I got some poop for y'all 

Gunners venison and backyard chicken body. I gave him the bone heavy whole body minus the leg quarters , wings and neck with the venison 









Mikey's venison and chicken thigh


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## gorge77

my cat's poop when she was on canned food:










and she was pooping this amount everyday.

having switched to raw 2 months back, she poops only twice a week & this is the amount of poop per poop session:


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## Sprocket

I guess I just like taking poop pictures :tongue:

This is Celia's chicken drumstick poop. Skinless


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## ciaBrysh

Is it odd I feel so much better looking at these poop pictures??? lol


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## minnieme

I can try to get pics of Minnie's (Acana) vs Maya's (raw) poo. It cracks me up... Maya's poo is maybe the size of a little cat turd.. Minnie's is this big monstrous mess of disgustingness (okay, it's not that bad but it sure is big next to Maya's)! Once Maya is more transitioned, I'm gonna give Minnie another whirl...though I think she could potentially have a chicken intolerance. Gave her the teeniest piece the other day on an empty belly -- and sure enough, stinky squirts. I even switched her kibble a few months ago so she could have one sans chicken because I'm pretty sure that's what made her have nasty farts. Perhaps we'll start off with turkey for her instead.


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## minnieme

Also: gorge77....WOW. That is amazing.


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## Sapphire-Light

Here's a pic, kibble poop the browish bigger group on the left, raw poop the two dark small ones on the right.


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## chewice

So... i haven't read much of this thread to be honest.. .I just with the photos still worked. 

Cash took 3 HUGE poops today, he doesn't even get fed that much, has a high metabolism...so he is not getting what he needs. He good a fist size at 7, 12 and 3... this is way to much... I can't wait to get him on raw. His bum must hurt... I know mine would.


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## BoxerParty

Don't have any poop pics to post, but had a "YAY for RAW!" moment when I walked my monsters earlier. We walked by a patch of grass COVERED in enormous kibble poops of various vintages.  When my two made their own deposits, the total from TWO dogs was about 1/4 of each of these disgusting piles. WOOT!


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## Ioana

Well, I don't have pictures, but I have a "poop story". I left my dog for two days at a friend who is feeding kibble. After that, when I was walking him, I saw that his poop looks strange. I called her and I asked: "Tamir (my dog) had some kibbles?". She was shocked... "Yes, but how the ... did you find out?". Well, she doesn't know about the poop, she's on kibbles :biggrin:


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