# Why not kibble?



## VeatchsMama (Oct 24, 2011)

Okay so I'm new to this field after obsessing over what to feed my fuzzbutt. I've read the kibble threads and I've read the raw. Both have their pros and cons and I just can't decide. So why do you feed raw over kibble? PS I'm Also asking the vice versa of the kibble feeders. Thanks!


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## CavePaws (Jan 25, 2011)

1. I can control *exactly *what my dogs are consuming
2. I can tailor their diets according to each dogs specific need: if one needs more meat, they get more meat, if one needs more bone, they get more bone, etc. etc.
3. I believe that natural whole foods are far superior to any highly processed commercial food on the market


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## CorgiPaws (Mar 31, 2009)

I have chosen raw over kibble because of the health benefits I saw in other raw fed dogs, and kibble just wasn't working for my Corgi at the time. 
I have stuck with raw because of the improvements I witnessed in each of my dogs (teeth, skin, fur, breath, energy, stools, etc.) after switching. I also believe that as carnivores, a diet of meat bones and organs is ideal. 
However, I understand that there are many who do feel their dogs benefit from plant matter in their diet, and because there is no hard evidence either way, I can totally respect that. Homecooked diets, and BARF style feeding is every bit as logical if that's the case. 

The things about kibble that really turn me away from it: the mystery of how much of everything is in it, and not knowing the quality of ingredients. Recalls also terrify me, and I'd feel guilty if my pet suffered from eating a dog food that was recalled. Also, I just can't wrap my head around feeding a processed food day in and day out. It's not good for people, nor animals. Whole foods just make worlds more sense to me. I'm more comfortable feeding it, and the results have simply been amazing.


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## eternalstudent (Jul 22, 2010)

I read the ingredients list on the kibble that came with my pup. If I had not been sat on the floor at the time I probably would have fallen of my chiar in disbelief. I started looking at alternative foods then decided to actually think about what a dog would and should eat.

After that there was no way I was feeding kibble ever again. 

To be honest I had no idea about the health benefits or the oral benefits they have both just come as a (fairly obvious now I think of it) surprise


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## whiteleo (Sep 7, 2008)

I feed raw because well, my dogs don't do well on kibble. Red bumps on their bellies, itchy skin, ear infections and nasty teeth.

I control what goes into their system and I like what I see.


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## Tobi (Mar 18, 2011)

I've chosen to feed raw simply because that is what i feel the correct diet is for my animal, I switched my dog over, not because he had any particular problem, but simply because it's what he deserved, and what his species requires (meat/bones/organs). I personally wouldn't have it any other way... elbows deep in raw meats and nastiness for my dog.
I'll add though, he's thriving on this diet, he's not just going day to day, he's wide open 24/7 and his body can handle it now, he's leaner, he's more muscular, no more baby bully acne...
Pro's- for me for feeding raw, I see what he eats, it's not full of fillers, and unnecessary items, It's cheaper than high end kibbles, my dog actually wants to eat now (most of the time -_-).
He doesn't stink (even when he's wet he still smells like... well nothing) His ears have started staying clean, since going raw nearly 8 months ago i've not had to clean them once. Dental benefits are outstanding.

Cons- Finding sources for meat can be taxing, depending upon your geographical location it can be more expensive (canada), treats sometimes become less valuable than their food :lol: Mealtimes become really loud, and obnoxious, blood everywhere on the linoleum :roll:


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## Liz (Sep 27, 2010)

If you are like me at all I do a list of pros and cons: Pros for raw feeding are : great teeth, fresh breath, clean almost odorless skin and coat, excellent coat, normal happy energy (no carb highs and lows), speciaes appropriate food, I know exactly what they are eating, no allergies, no ear infections, supplements only when I think they need something, no vet visits, incredible muscle tone, easy weight maintenance, cheaper than top quality kibble, shopping for meat and meat sales. That's all I can think of off the top of my head. Cons: if you have larger or multiple dogs a stand alone freezer is almost imperative, shopping for meat (which also becomes a pro cause it is fun) extra time to package meat especially if bought in bulk. 

We buy 200 - 300 pounds of meat at a time for the most part and I take about 1 1/2 to speparate and package. That is about 2 to 2 1/2 months of food for my pack as we have 7 dogs. Plus On kibble I was spending $35.00 per bag, 4 bags per month so that's $140.00 per month. I now spend between $80.00 - $125.00, plus no vet visits, supplements are virtually unnecessary, and grooming is almost nil. No extra chewies - they get bones, and no extra teeth cleaning stuff. JMHO


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## naturalfeddogs (Jan 6, 2011)

I believe raw meat, bones and organs are the perfect, most natural diet for a dog. No fillers/junk. Very small poops, no poop odor, clean teeth/gums, beautiful coats with a wonderful natural shine. It all shows in my dogs and it only makes sense.


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## JayJayisme (Aug 2, 2009)

VeatchsMama said:


> So why do you feed raw over kibble?


For the same reason I don't feed myself or my kids something from a cereal box every day.

It's not biologically appropriate, and certainly not a nutritionally optimum nor a "whole" food. It's heavily processed. It mimics nothing in nature. It contains ingredients that should never be considered species-appropriate food. It comes from a morally bankrupt, virtually unregulated multi-billion dollar industry (although the meat industry on a whole isn't much better).

Couple that to the fact that there is a direct correlation between the use of commercial pet food and a virtual epidemic of chronic, metabolic related health issues in dogs, such as diabetes, obesity, heart/cardiovascular disease, cancer, dental disease, etc. and it seems pretty obvious that the same thing that has happened to our human health population with the rise in popularity of grain-based processed foods, is exactly what is happening to our pets. Okay, correlation is not necessarily causation, but anybody with more than a few active brain cells can make the connection as long as you are willing to question "conventional wisdom" (an oxymoron if ever there was one).

Simply put, kibble is the doggie equivalent of "junk food" regardless of what the pretty labels say. 

And remember, longevity (which is what people tend to get hung up on these days) does not necessarily translate to a high quality of life. Good genes and/or modern medicine are the only reasons people and pets live so long these days, in spite of the horrible diets most of them eat. Sure, dogs can _survive_ on kibble, and some even live long lives. But all things being equal, that same dog would likely have a much higher quality of life, and possibly even more longevity (not to mention WAY fewer vet visits) if given a species-appropriate diet.


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## VeatchsMama (Oct 24, 2011)

Wow I'm really blown away by the responses. I'm really agreeing to your answers and although I was leaning towards a raw diet to being with I think I'm officially swayed. As of right now... Not one response from kibble people on why they choose kibble - even all natural holistic brands. I've got a freezer big enough for my dog and my boyfriends fathers ( we live together) and his father works in a restaurant which will probably help supply the meat, organs, and bones. I still want to research more but I have one question... You freeze the meat and meals... Is it served thawed? Silly I know but no one has said if so on any thread and this is completely new to me!


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## naturalfeddogs (Jan 6, 2011)

I serve mine thawed, but there have been a few times where I have forgotten to take their meat out of the freezer in time and they have eaten it partialy frozen. They didn't seem to care to much, but I think they like it thawed better. Its not going to hurt to feed frozen, but most here I think will say they thaw first.


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## whiteleo (Sep 7, 2008)

VeatchsMama said:


> Wow I'm really blown away by the responses. I'm really agreeing to your answers and although I was leaning towards a raw diet to being with I think I'm officially swayed. As of right now... Not one response from kibble people on why they choose kibble - even all natural holistic brands. I've got a freezer big enough for my dog and my boyfriends fathers ( we live together) and his father works in a restaurant which will probably help supply the meat, organs, and bones. I still want to research more but I have one question... You freeze the meat and meals... Is it served thawed? Silly I know but no one has said if so on any thread and this is completely new to me!


Some people have fed it right from the animal on the same day as slaughter without freezing first. Meat that is for human consumption does not need to be frozen first, some people will feed their dogs semi thawed food just so their dogs will not eat it sooo fast.


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## DaneMama (Jun 27, 2008)

Yep! Most of the time what we feed is completely thawed out, but sometimes we feed things that are still frozen or partially so. 

I'm glad that you have been swayed to feed raw! It is in fact the most logical choice :thumb: 

And you did get one answer in the kibble section. To me convenience of kibble and the "gross" factor of raw aren't justifiable excuses as to not feed a biologically appropriate diet to the dog you are responsible for.


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## CorgiPaws (Mar 31, 2009)

VeatchsMama said:


> Wow I'm really blown away by the responses. I'm really agreeing to your answers and although I was leaning towards a raw diet to being with I think I'm officially swayed. As of right now... Not one response from kibble people on why they choose kibble - even all natural holistic brands. I've got a freezer big enough for my dog and my boyfriends fathers ( we live together) and his father works in a restaurant which will probably help supply the meat, organs, and bones. I still want to research more but I have one question... You freeze the meat and meals... Is it served thawed? Silly I know but no one has said if so on any thread and this is completely new to me!


Because we feed 6 dogs, 5 of them being Great Danes, we buy in very large bulk quantities. (600-900 lbs) so we freeze everything of course to store it so it does not go rancid too fast. :tongue:
We pull their food out the night before, and let it thaw on the counter to feed the next day. It is mostly thawed by meal time, but is sometimes still frozen in the middle. It doesn't matter much. We make it a point to thaw because we have all 6 dog's food in the same container so it's difficult to separate if it's still entirely frozen. 
I have one dog that is more picky about frozen foods and prefers them thawed, the other 5 couldn't care less.


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## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

You can feed either frozen, raw, or anything in between. It's all personal preference. I feed alot of stuff half frozen, especially organs as the texture of them is sometimes difficult to handle thawed.

The reason to feed dry food would be convenience, believing false information that is available readily on the internet, ignorance of what raw feeding really is, and just being ok with what you've been doing forever. 

Plus, i think you posted in the raw feeding forum


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## Filth (Oct 5, 2011)

Because I can feed my dog with meat, not believing that I'm feeding meat.


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## CorgiPaws (Mar 31, 2009)

I wanted to add: there is a lack in studies that compare raw, particularly PMR, to kibble fed dogs. Many people need "solid evidence" and it simply isn't there. 
So, I ask myself: what makes sense? Does it make more sense to feed a commercially processed mystery food, or does it make sense to feed whole, fresh foods? 
To me, the latter appeals to logic far more. From there, people take it in many directions: PMR, barf, homecooked, with grains, grain free, and everything in between. ALL of these are leaps and bounds better than kibble, in my opinion. I won't even comment on what I think is and isn't necessary because that goes back to the omnivore vs. carnivore debate, which is not the point of this thread. It's a matter of whole fresh foods, or processed beyond recognition foods. Only one of which makes any sense to me.


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## Sprocket (Oct 4, 2011)

I started feeding raw because my oldest dog was overweight (slightly but it was obvious) and I couldn't cut his kibble portion anymore! He was getting 1 cup a day and still held on to his weight. 

He is now losing weight and his teeth are MUCH cleaner.

My chihuahua is eating raw because although he never had any issues with eating kibble, I feel that it is the best choice for him over all.

My APBT pup had THE WORST FARTS EVER on kibble and it was HORRIBLE. His farts are 100% gone now that he is on raw.

Plus I love shopping for deals and portioning out their separate meals. It is FUN!


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## CavePaws (Jan 25, 2011)

Filth said:


> Because I can feed my dog with meat, not believing that I'm feeding meat.


 

Please explain!!


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## CorgiPaws (Mar 31, 2009)

CavePaws said:


> Please explain!!


I THINK what he meant was he can give his dog meat, and know it's meat, rather than feed a kibble that lists meat, and just hope that it is. (and not just tumors, bruises, connective tissue, and bone) 
At least that's how I took it, maybe I'm way off. lol


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## Donna Little (May 31, 2011)

I'm a raw feeder and have been for 5 months now and I LOVE it! Yes it's more work, and takes more thought than throwing kibble in a bowl but I have enjoyed every aspect of it. I have 9 dogs but switched because of just one and he's why I'll never go back. Now of course they all eat raw. 
I have always wanted the best for my dogs and have one in particular that has multiple health problems. (Actually he's my profile picture right now.) I've told my dog's story on here a couple of times but will tell you my experience with raw and Toby's health. He is 10 yrs old, has a grade 5 heart murmur, is in congestive heart failure, an inactive thyroid and asthma. So basically he's a train wreck. This past winter his health had declined to the point that I thought he wouldn't live but a few more months. Early spring I started researching more holistic ways to help him because he's on every heart med out there and on the highest dose. I was looking into feeding raw but hadn't mentioned it to the hubby yet. May 1st Toby almost died and after an emergency trip to the vet, hours on oxygen and IV drugs to help him breathe the vet told me he might have a couple of months to live. I was devastated. When we got him stablized and went home I told my husband I wanted to try feeding him raw and if it didn't help then at least I'd feel like I'd exhausted all possibilities. The next day he got his first raw meal. By the end of the week he was barely coughing. This little dog coughed for hours a day, every day. I didn't want to get my hopes up but several days after that he was cough free. He started playing and interacting with my other dogs within days too. This is something he's never done in the 7 yrs he's been with me because he's always tired. Over the past 5 months I've cut all his meds in half. The only thing I changed for him was his diet. 
Now, I am under no impression that he is cured but I have gone from seeing a dog with no quality of life to a normal, happy dog so I'm a firm believer that raw has saved his life. I still think his life will likely be shortened because of his health issues but to see him acting fine even if it's for another 6 months or a year, I'm gonna take the gift I've been given and appreciate every single day I get with him. 

**Post moved from another thread by PuppyPaws


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## monkeys23 (Dec 8, 2010)

I knew all along prey model raw was best, but made dumb excuses like not having enough freezer space until my dog had enough issues from kibble (very high end kibble no less... the crappy stuff would have been even worse...) that I finally pulled my head out and made the change. It just makes so much more sense than kibble!

And here's a super short answer: look at those teeth, don't look like herbavore teeth do they? So why feed them like one??


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## Nootherids (Sep 22, 2011)

A good discussion point when deciding between raw and kibble...

Many kibble advocates will tell you that feeding raw just does not provide an adequately balanced diet for dogs. Well think about what you eat as a human. If you were to eat only meat then your body would suffer deficiencies of many nutrients and your body, health, energy, and life would suffer. Dogs on the other hand are Carnivores and many people on here will confirm to you that removing every little bit of non-meat material does not cause any sort of deficiencies in their system. On the contrary, it actually helps their system operate at its optimum levels. Obviously the opposite is also true. If we as humans eat a lot of what we Do Not need then we get sick and lethargic. When we feed dogs kibble their lives in the long run are much more prone to lack of energy and suffering on their last days.

As far as thawed or frozen: When I first started giving my pup meat she would not eat it frozen or even cold and definitely not warm (if I defrosted it a bit too long). Eventually she just started enjoying it so much that now I can give it to her straight out of the fridge and cold but I try to let it thaw a bit first so that it's "juicier" since she loves liking all the juices before and after actually getting to the meat itself.


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## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

I had two very sickly dogs on kibble. i started a thread somewhere around here where I spent something like $24,000 on dog medical bills in the months before we started raw food and about $1500 in the six months since.

To me, that's a giant "why not kibble." It was fricken bankrupting me.


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## Dude and Bucks Mamma (May 14, 2011)

I know exactly what I am feeding my boys. I don't have to wonder what is in it (protein meal and meat meal) and I know where it comes from. Because dogs are carnivores they only need meat, bones, and organs. Why feed them everything else, including sawdust, that comes in kibble.

I look at it this way: What's better? Eating a strawberry fruit roll up or an actual strawberry? We can choose to eat processed foods or whole foods and we all know what is healthier. Dogs are no different.

Another big thing for me is natural food sources. Every living thing has a natural food source. Horses eat hay, grain, and grass. Bearded dragons eat bloodworms and crickets. Wolves eat deer, cattle, horses, sheep, goats, chickens, etc. Dogs are a subspecies of wolf so why should their diet be any different? Kibble is not a natural food source and should not, IMO, be fed to a dog.


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## pogo (Aug 28, 2011)

I have never fed either of my boys kibble, Harvey the pup has grown at a nice steady pace instead of stupid growth spurts, Chance is a rescue and kibble does not agree with him what so ever. Both have amazing skin, coat, teeth etc and I believe it's genuinely the best i can possibly feed my dogs!


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## Tobi (Mar 18, 2011)

whiteleo said:


> Some people have fed it right from the animal on the same day as slaughter without freezing first. Meat that is for human consumption does not need to be frozen first, some people will feed their dogs semi thawed food just so their dogs will not eat it sooo fast.


Right off the cow!!!! :becky:

We got some fresh beef heart today! it was beating 45 minutes before Tobi ate it! :lol:


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## cprcheetah (Jul 14, 2010)

Oops....sorry my brain is half asleep right now...will post in the other thread.


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## cprcheetah (Jul 14, 2010)

have worked for a vet for 20+ years he is also my father, he retried and I now work for a different vet, so I have had it ingrained in my head that kibble was the best thing since sliced bread for my critters. However my Zoey who will be 6 years old tomorrow has a SLEW of health problems, and was constantly (every other week) being treated for respiratory infections, bladder infections and the link, so I started doing research and I was a member of another popular dog forum as well as a chihuahua forum and it got me to thinking when they were posting how healthy their dogs were on Raw. Zoey has severe food allergies to Beef/Chicken in cooked form. So July 2010 actually about a week after Zoey had surgery on her knees, I switched my dogs over to raw, yes that first meal, I was like "Please don't die" LOL! But I am so astounded by the POSITIVE results I have seen in her it's amazing. Even my vet (father) was recommending it to his clients before he semi-retired, and still has me talk to people about it. It has honestly been the BEST thing I have ever done for my crew. My 12 year old cat runs around like a kitten half the time.

Health Benefits seen in her:
1- She is off of 6 of her longterm meds (only one she is still on is Prilosec to cut back CSF Fluid due to hydrocephalus)
2- No more seizures (12 months since last seizure)
3- No more throat/bladder infections, again 12 months
4- No more stained brown legs/face/feet from draining/licking/chewing
5- She is more vibrant and more energetic
6- Her arthritis doesn't pain her as much
7- For heaven sakes if it gives her more 'quality' time I'll take it! She wasn't supposed to make it past 2, but with my vigilence and my research we've kept her going. Since feeding her raw, I feel like the quality is SOOOOOOOOOOOO much better!

Pictures are worth 1000 Words so here is why I will never feed kibble again:
Zoey on Kibble....yep her 2nd raw meal









Zoey on Raw:









You tell me, which picture does she look better in? Yes the 2nd picture is not super good quality (it was taken with my phone) but you can see no more brown staining on front legs, not more red tear stains etc. Forgot to mention that I have seen positive results in Shellie and Ziva as well they just didn't/don't have all the health issues that Zoey has had.


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## Dude and Bucks Mamma (May 14, 2011)

pogo said:


> I have never fed either of my boys kibble, Harvey the pup has grown at a nice steady pace instead of stupid growth spurts, Chance is a rescue and kibble does not agree with him what so ever. Both have amazing skin, coat, teeth etc and I believe it's genuinely the best i can possibly feed my dogs!


That's another thing I have noticed with Buck. He is approximately 23 1/4 inches tall at 6 months and 24 days. I have been able to see a steady growth in him that I don't see in kibble fed puppies. Growing in spurts is harder on joints than growing at a smooth steady pace. I won't deny that there are minor growth spurts here and there but they are hardly noticeable. 

Some people debate that raw fed dogs grow to be smaller or larger at full size while fed raw but Buck is right where he should be. The minimum height for bluetick males is 22 inches and the maximum height is 27 and at 23 1/4 he is above the minimum but with some growing to do yet he is still well below the maximum.


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## pogo (Aug 28, 2011)

Dude and Bucks Mamma said:


> That's another thing I have noticed with Buck. He is approximately 23 1/4 inches tall at 6 months and 24 days. I have been able to see a steady growth in him that I don't see in kibble fed puppies. Growing in spurts is harder on joints than growing at a smooth steady pace. I won't deny that there are minor growth spurts here and there but they are hardly noticeable.
> 
> Some people debate that raw fed dogs grow to be smaller or larger at full size while fed raw but Buck is right where he should be. The minimum height for bluetick males is 22 inches and the maximum height is 27 and at 23 1/4 he is above the minimum but with some growing to do yet he is still well below the maximum.


Yer i've heard that raw fed dogs grow to slow or don't grow to their full potential, however Harvey now at 9 months is also where he should be height and weight wise, I know he has alot of filling out to do, with him being a staffy who are slow growers anyway but he's just growing at a more natural rate.


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## Dude and Bucks Mamma (May 14, 2011)

VeatchsMama said:


> Wow I'm really blown away by the responses. I'm really agreeing to your answers and although I was leaning towards a raw diet to being with I think I'm officially swayed. As of right now... Not one response from kibble people on why they choose kibble - even all natural holistic brands. I've got a freezer big enough for my dog and my boyfriends fathers ( we live together) and his father works in a restaurant which will probably help supply the meat, organs, and bones. I still want to research more but I have one question... You freeze the meat and meals... Is it served thawed? Silly I know but no one has said if so on any thread and this is completely new to me!


I freeze meat because it takes my dogs longer to eat it and for storage purposes. I buy as much meat as possible when I find it for a great price and I can't keep it all in my fridge because it would go bad before I could feed it. Buck is an inhaler so when it's frozen he has to really work at it to break it into small enough chunks to swallow. 



pogo said:


> Yer i've heard that raw fed dogs grow to slow or don't grow to their full potential, however Harvey now at 9 months is also where he should be height and weight wise, I know he has alot of filling out to do, with him being a staffy who are slow growers anyway but he's just growing at a more natural rate.


Wel there is no doubt that Buck is going to be a big boy! Haha. So we don't worry about him being too small. I worry about him being too big! He has his first show next month and if he does well I don't want him to be too big at full height to get his title! Haha. Not that we would love him any less. He will always be my baby first and foremost. I am showing mostly for me, not him. Haha. I find it fun. He seems to like it too since he gets all sorts of treats. Heehee!


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## Filth (Oct 5, 2011)

PuppyPaws said:


> I THINK what he meant was he can give his dog meat, and know it's meat, rather than feed a kibble that lists meat, and just hope that it is. (and not just tumors, bruises, connective tissue, and bone)
> At least that's how I took it, maybe I'm way off. lol


Exactly. That is the point...a great difference between being sure and just believing. For me there is big difference between giving your dog piece of meat, or slice of apple, or piece of cheese and just hoping that kibble that has meat written on the bag really contains it. The way of preparing kibble and nutritional content of material kibble is made of is another story and one more big benefit of raw.




pogo said:


> Yer i've heard that raw fed dogs grow to slow or don't grow to their full potential


That is really funny.


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## pogo (Aug 28, 2011)

Dude and Bucks Mamma said:


> I freeze meat because it takes my dogs longer to eat it and for storage purposes. I buy as much meat as possible when I find it for a great price and I can't keep it all in my fridge because it would go bad before I could feed it. Buck is an inhaler so when it's frozen he has to really work at it to break it into small enough chunks to swallow.
> 
> 
> 
> Wel there is no doubt that Buck is going to be a big boy! Haha. So we don't worry about him being too small. I worry about him being too big! He has his first show next month and if he does well I don't want him to be too big at full height to get his title! Haha. Not that we would love him any less. He will always be my baby first and foremost. I am showing mostly for me, not him. Haha. I find it fun. He seems to like it too since he gets all sorts of treats. Heehee!


Haha fair enough, I don't show very often although Harvey has won best of breed before which is his best win!


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## pogo (Aug 28, 2011)

Filth said:


> That is really funny.


Why is it funny?


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## whiteleo (Sep 7, 2008)

Probably because it is so untrue!


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

when i fed kibble, i could not understand why all of my shih tzus had higher than normal liver enzymes.

one dog i could understand. she was on deramaxx for arthritis and that can affect liver enzymes. but three out of four shih tzus were not on any meds....and their liver enzymes were greatly elevated.

then i started reading the ingredients, trying to figure it out. and i discovered that menadione was used, which is a synthetic form of vitamin k3...

and that's when i began to home cook, since i didn't know about raw.

then i really started looking at kibble ingredients. and it didn't make sense to give my dogs processed foods when i won't eat processed foods.

i found a thread on another forum and i was fascinated.

i've never looked back and i will never feed kibble again.

the differences are so obvious it's hard to figure out why everyone doesn't feed raw.....

health, dental benefits, my old 12 year old acts like a younger dog...and my pug's ears don't get infected anymore....i can't argue with that.


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## pogo (Aug 28, 2011)

Well i know that, it's just one of those stupid things people say though, re: not growing to full potential


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## CorgiPaws (Mar 31, 2009)

Well, I actually HAVE seen much slower growth rates in my raw fed dogs. My dogs are under 2 (except mousse, who was raised on kibble) so I can not comment on if they mature smaller or not. But, Zailey's parents were both about 160lbs, and she is currently only about 110 at 15 months old.

ETA: actually, a more accurate description would be more gradual growth rates, without the insane growth spurts.


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## KittyKat (Feb 11, 2011)

PuppyPaws said:


> Well, I actually HAVE seen much slower growth rates in my raw fed dogs. My dogs are under 2 (except mousse, who was raised on kibble) so I can not comment on if they mature smaller or not. But, Zailey's parents were both about 160lbs, and she is currently only about 110 at 15 months old.


Well here's something interesting. One little, two raw fed dogs in it (both female). One is really small, and was always small (she's fed a BARF diet), and then there is Piper, who is on PMR and is big, big muscles, big size (she's as big as the boys). Piper matured a little bit ahead of the rest of them as well. Piper was the first born female, and her other littermate on the raw diet was one of the last born.

Now that I think of this, it will be interesting because I keep in close contact with all but one of her litter mates. As they age we can compare. :3


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## Finster (Jan 11, 2011)

I feed raw mainly because I've never seen a canine chowing down on a corn field. If in doubt, feed them what their species has chosen to eat, and thrived on, for millenia. Feeding a dog dry, high temperature baked cereals seems a little cruel, not just because they can't digest it and end up with huge poos, but because it's impossible to provide proper nutritional coverage or satisfying daily variety.

I feed raw beef, chicken and kangaroo mince, plus bones and organ meats from all three, plus a bit of fish, raw eggs and small amounts of veggies, berries and apples. My dog thrives on this physically and psychologically, so it's all good.


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## hmbutler (Aug 4, 2011)

VeatchsMama said:


> Wow I'm really blown away by the responses. I'm really agreeing to your answers and although I was leaning towards a raw diet to being with I think I'm officially swayed. As of right now... Not one response from kibble people on why they choose kibble - even all natural holistic brands. I've got a freezer big enough for my dog and my boyfriends fathers ( we live together) and his father works in a restaurant which will probably help supply the meat, organs, and bones. I still want to research more but I have one question... You freeze the meat and meals... Is it served thawed? Silly I know but no one has said if so on any thread and this is completely new to me!


I freeze Duke's food for similar reasons mentioned here - I buy in bulk, and it'd go bad in the fridge before I have a chance to feed it! So I buy in bulk, and freeze in meal portions (though I made the mistake of freezing one individual protein in a meal sized portion, I should've frozen in 1/4 or 1/2 meal sizes, because now when I defrost beef, I have to cut away part of it to feed with bone in chicken, because Duke can't handle a meal full of beef lol)

I thaw his meals usually the night before, if I remember, otherwise I chuck the ziplock bag in hot water to defrost it a bit before feeding. If it is small enough to fit in his mouth, but too big to swallow, I sometimes feed it partially frozen so he chews a bit more (he's taken to completely swallowing, then puking back up, the small chicken quarters, unless they are frozen). In summer I will probably feed his meals partially to fully frozen, just to keep him cool :smile: plus it takes him longer and gives him more of a mental and physical work out to finish his meal hehe


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## Cain (Feb 14, 2011)

Because the results speak for themselves. I have never seen another dog that has been fed kibble, thriving like Cain is. 

Benefits I've seen with raw;

-Elimination of food allergens
-Amazing coat. Extremely soft, vibrant, silky, and shiny.
-No odors
-Clean teeth
-Small stools
-Higher LBM
-Increased energy


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## rannmiller (Jun 27, 2008)

My honest main reason for not feeding kibble: the poop!


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## Filth (Oct 5, 2011)

pogo said:


> Why is it funny?


Because kibble companies compete with each other by adding meat in their bags, and then someone says that meat slows the growth. People act like kibble is made from something that is from some other planet. Material of which kibble is made is nutritionally very poor. It becomes satisfying when they add all the chemicals(synthetic vitamins/minerals) to it. Dogs raised on kibble are dogs raised on chemicals. Their growth is produces by chemicals, their hair is looking good because of chemicals, they live because of chemicals. All because the main material kibble is made of is total s**t(firstly because of the things it is made of, and secondly because of the way of preparing it). How long can they live that way?

Growth of the dog is not something that is directly related to food. Food is one of the factors, but genetics is the main one. With feeding certain food you can make your dog look better, get the nicer hair, give him/her internal health. How big dog is going to grow is mainly determined by genetics. Feeding your dog with meat and high quality natural food will help a dog to grow as much as that dog should grow(which is determined by his/her genes). Maybe that same dog will grow more on kibble, but that is a disease. We call it here hybrid dogs or big dog syndrome. 

So if you feed your dog properly it will grow as much as it should grow. Some dogs are smaller than its parents which doesn't mean that dog was fed wrong way and that it should be bigger. It's not best dog food the one that will make the dog bigger, the best one is the one that will allow dog to grow as much as its nature predicted.

And then it is just funny when someone says "oh my dog could of been bigger if I fed him kibble..." :biggrin1:


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## lily (May 16, 2011)

i have been feeding annie raw for 7 months due to her constant itching,i enjoy watching her eat raw her over all health is fantastic but it has never stopped her itching,now after lots of thought i have put her back on the original kibble i fed her when i got her ,which is low in protein ,after discussing it with a bulldog breeder we considered was the protein just too high for her,as her itch started after i changed her original kibble to a higher protein more expensive kibble,after her second feed on the lower protein kibble her itching started to subside and at the moment itches 90% less itchy,i am sad that i have had to try the kibble again but is high protein just not good for a bulldog?i feel that i have to try this but feel very guilty for stopping raw as i know that its the best diet for a dog but just not my bulldog,karen


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## Scarlett_O' (May 19, 2011)

Everyone already did a SUPER job covering EXACTLY why I feed my dogs and cats raw but here are a few of the top reasons:

#1. I dont trust people, so when companies say what is in their food I dont believe them...meanwhile I can hack up a turkey and know EXACTLY what it is that my dogs and cats are eating!:wink:

#2. Heath....ALL of my dogs have shown a HUGE change from when on kibble; 

Brody was on Acana/TOTW mix at 1.5 years old...his shed like CRAZY, his skin was never AMAZING...just good, and his farts where HORRID...now he liked his food, and nothing was worse then "normal dog" stuff...but still I didnt like it, now the only time he excessively sheds is when we rake him, and his farts...well they pop up some times when Im feeding kidney...but other then that he looks, feels and acts GREAT!!:thumb:

Leo was on olroy when we got him at 4 years old, he had VERY thin and coarse hair, his skin felt like sandpaper, and the guy we got him from said "He itches a LOT....like a normal dog." :suspicious: And also said he would eat one day then go 2 or 3 with out, because he would turn his nose up at it! Now, he is silky, smooth, his hair grew back on his legs when there hadnt been any, he is ALWAYS smiling and VERY happy to eat!

Dixi, was on "what ever canned food Im feeding my Chis at the time!"...so ya...Im not sure what she was eating, but her fur was a lot like Leo's coarse, dry and tin. Now it is growing back VERY well, and she is SUPER happy to eat!:smile:

And Rhett, well Rhett leads me to reason number 3...POOP!! Rhett was my "Puppy Cannon Butt"....he was 15 weeks old and I dont think I got a single firm stool out of him in the 5 weeks that I had him other then when I would give the boys raw lamb necks!! So I mad the leap(after coming here and talking to the AMAZING raw feeders on here) and told my husband "Rhett and Brody are going to be raw fed!" The day after we started was the last time I saw normal poop out of my baby boy be anything other then nice solid and coloured/textured like what ever Im feeding him!!!!:thumb: (I say "normal poop" because in late June he DID get into the inlaw's dog's store brand krapple and had NASTY stool for a day or so...but that wasnt his food's fault!:wink

I have also seen a HUGE change in my 2 cats....Ducki and Pidgin are both long haired...and I havent seen a single hair ball since starting them on raw! Ive had Ducki for nearly a year, since she was 10 weeks old, and that was somethign that we always had problems with..and when we got Pidgin they gave us some "hairball relief" stuff for her because of how bad she would have them!! They are both FAR happier to eat then they had been (well from what Im told about Pidgin at least :wink and they look and feel SOO much healthier!!!!:thumb:

And as far as thawed or frozen....I answered that over in another thread just yesterday!:smile:


"Both, and in between!

For Brody and Dixi the reason is that they are both "stupid eaters"....for Rhett and Leo it is a convenience thing, if I have food prepped a head of time then everyone eats frozen(as I prep and re-freeze) if Im feeling lazy and dont prep then Brody and Dixi eat the frozen that I ALWAYS have prepped for them, and I prep another day for them and freeze it and I then feed Leo, Rhett and the kitties thawed.

The cats are always fed thawed...since they wont eat it frozen!LOL"


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## Cain (Feb 14, 2011)

What exactly were you feeding Annie?

I believe the % of protein from PMR is less than higher protein kibble due to the moisture content. Someone on here will give you a better approximation.


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## CavePaws (Jan 25, 2011)

I just want to say, as sad as it is for me to really say this, but when someone like my mother says if it were up to her she would be feeding the dogs kibble (out of sheer convenience) I really loose a bit of respect for them...ESPECIALLY after seeing it cure three health problems in our dogs. Lol, I won't be leaving any of my carnivores with her...


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## Southpaw (Oct 17, 2011)

Honestly, the reason I switched to raw was simply because I decided my dog deserved the variety. She was on a good grain-free kibble, we were not having any issues. But the more I thought about it... the more I started realizing how awful it would be to eat the same dry crunchy things, day in and day out for 10+ years. She LOVES food, and was always excited to eat her kibble; but I could see how much more excited she was if I added something extra like honey or canned food. So I just figured a raw diet would be more enjoyable. 

We are only 1.5 weeks into it, so changes haven't had time to occur. Except: the poop. She poops once a day and they are like rabbit turds lol. Which is nice. 

I am excited about the dental benefits as well. Because even though I have brushed her teeth since she was a puppy, I am not very good at brushing the molars, so she has some tartar buildup back there. Can't wait to see what some time on a raw diet will do to them.

I actually find it kind of fun and neat too--browsing for different meats, and watching my dog eat what she was intended to. I wouldn't want to go back to kibble.


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

lily said:


> i have been feeding annie raw for 7 months due to her constant itching,i enjoy watching her eat raw her over all health is fantastic but it has never stopped her itching,now after lots of thought i have put her back on the original kibble i fed her when i got her ,which is low in protein ,after discussing it with a bulldog breeder we considered was the protein just too high for her,as her itch started after i changed her original kibble to a higher protein more expensive kibble,after her second feed on the lower protein kibble her itching started to subside and at the moment itches 90% less itchy,i am sad that i have had to try the kibble again but is high protein just not good for a bulldog?i feel that i have to try this but feel very guilty for stopping raw as i know that its the best diet for a dog but just not my bulldog,karen


you did fight the good fight...i thought you had decided that she would never stop itching because of the environmental allergies...raw is great, but it's not a miracle worker....

but you have to do what you have to do for her and for you....and i wish you the best.


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## HayleyMarie (Jul 6, 2011)

Teagan was not havin any issues, but reading kibble labels started makin me really mad. I always had the intention to feed raw, but never really knew were to start. I finally just said screw that and randomly bought a bag of ground up whole chicken and went from there. It was the push I needed. 

I love seeing teagan excited to eat her food. It makes me laugh when she gets snarky towards the other dogs when she is eating. If it was kibble she would not care, but raw is special. I noticed a huge change in her breath almost right away. Her teeth look great. 

She also has beefed up a little which I love. When she was on kibble she was a skinny little muscular rat.


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## pogo (Aug 28, 2011)

Filth said:


> Because kibble companies compete with each other by adding meat in their bags, and then someone says that meat slows the growth. People act like kibble is made from something that is from some other planet. Material of which kibble is made is nutritionally very poor. It becomes satisfying when they add all the chemicals(synthetic vitamins/minerals) to it. Dogs raised on kibble are dogs raised on chemicals. Their growth is produces by chemicals, their hair is looking good because of chemicals, they live because of chemicals. All because the main material kibble is made of is total s**t(firstly because of the things it is made of, and secondly because of the way of preparing it). How long can they live that way?
> 
> Growth of the dog is not something that is directly related to food. Food is one of the factors, but genetics is the main one. With feeding certain food you can make your dog look better, get the nicer hair, give him/her internal health. How big dog is going to grow is mainly determined by genetics. Feeding your dog with meat and high quality natural food will help a dog to grow as much as that dog should grow(which is determined by his/her genes). Maybe that same dog will grow more on kibble, but that is a disease. We call it here hybrid dogs or big dog syndrome.
> 
> ...


Fair enough I feel it's more ridiculous and annoying then funny but fair dos. 
Like i said i've never fed kibble to either of my dogs, so therefore i know they are growing at a natural rate and will get to their full potential 'whenever'


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

CavePaws said:


> I just want to say, as sad as it is for me to really say this, but when someone like my mother says if it were up to her she would be feeding the dogs kibble (out of sheer convenience) I really loose a bit of respect for them...ESPECIALLY after seeing it cure three health problems in our dogs. Lol, I won't be leaving any of my carnivores with her...


that's the one that gets me.....the convenience clause.....

i'm doing this experiment right now and make no mistake i AM a prey model feeder......it takes me three extra minutes....THREE EXTRA MINUTES to do what i'm doing at the moment.....and i will do it for six months..... i will spend three extra minutes per day....that's what...21 minutes a week? OH, THE HORROR.


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## HayleyMarie (Jul 6, 2011)

The way I see it: it's like taking your children to McDonalds because your too lazy too cook and because it's cheaper. Ok it may not be that bad, but seriously ha ha


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## hmbutler (Aug 4, 2011)

HayleyMarie said:


> The way I see it: it's like taking your children to McDonalds because your too lazy too cook and because it's cheaper. Ok it may not be that bad, but seriously ha ha


I do this for me and the husband all the time :wink: haha. Probably going to do it tonight, because I'm taking Duke for a late playdate which will take up most of my cooking time, and hubby goes to bed early on weeknights, because he starts work so early (good news for me - tomorrow is a public holiday! but hubby is being a good boy and going to work for double pay hehe)

BUT... I wont do it for Duke... hehe, see where my priorities lie??


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## oddjob (Aug 24, 2011)

Kibble's boring. Fill a bowl...next day...fill a bowl....next day...
Being more involved with my dogs and keeping an eye out for new meats on sale to try makes feeding more than some robotic routine.
I'd have to put my rose-colored glasses on to notice any difference from kibble but It's only logical that it would be healthier than compressed crackers.


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## doggoblin (Jun 6, 2011)

You've heard a lot of discussions about teeth, coats etc already and we have found the same. It has to be said that some kibble is better than others but reading things like
Is pet food poisoning our dogs? | Mail Online does make you wonder.
Then you get a dog food company produce information like Orijin White paper which seems to point to raw feeding as the best food possible.

Finally you only have to look at a dog being raw fed and how much they like the food. All our dogs enjoy their meals which they never used to when fed kibble. They eat now because the want to, not because they have to.


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## malluver1005 (Nov 15, 2009)

The number 1 reason I feed raw is because I wanted to eliminate carbs from Aspen's diet. Cancer thrives off of carbs...He doesn't have cancer, but if he were kibble fed and had a small abdominal tumor, I would be making it grow...

ETA: It just doesn't seem/feel right to me when I see a dog eating kibble.


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## Dude and Bucks Mamma (May 14, 2011)

Southpaw said:


> Honestly, the reason I switched to raw was simply because I decided my dog deserved the variety. She was on a good grain-free kibble, we were not having any issues. But the more I thought about it... the more I started realizing how awful it would be to eat the same dry crunchy things, day in and day out for 10+ years. She LOVES food, and was always excited to eat her kibble; but I could see how much more excited she was if I added something extra like honey or canned food. So I just figured a raw diet would be more enjoyable.
> 
> We are only 1.5 weeks into it, so changes haven't had time to occur. Except: the poop. She poops once a day and they are like rabbit turds lol. Which is nice.
> 
> ...


We didn't have any health problems either. OUt of all of the dogs I have owned the only dog who has ever had any issue is my grandparents' (I lived with them so I consider her to be my dog) doberman, Xena. She has some kind of thyroid issue. She is like a black and tan barrel with legs. She eats Kirkland kibble (so it could be worse) and gets almost nothing. If they feed her even slightly less she loses weight like crazy and gets scary thin but at this amount she is huge. I have never been able to find out too much about it because my grandfather is the kind of person who views a dog as a dog. She does have a better life than most dogs but she is the dog who needs to be raw fed as kibble isn't doing anything for her. But... that is a lost cause. When my family finds out I raw feed they will call me wasteful. I can almost guarantee that. 

ANYWAY! None of the dogs who were technically mine have ever suffered from even the slightest allergy. I too just decided that it wasn't fair to make them eat the same thing every day. I also realized how bad most of the "great" kibbles are. After I found this site it just made so much sense. I always knew dogs are carnivores. That was never a question for me, even as a kid. It just never occurred to me to feed them that way. I toyed with the idea for years but never had the ability to do it (living with the family who will call me wasteful upon finding out). Once I got married and moved out with Dude and got Buck I switched to PMR and neither of us have looked back.


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## Khan (Jan 17, 2010)

Health reasons were why I started Khan on raw. After countless kibble brands, and just as many parasite tests, the switch to raw was on. He went from a skinny, itchy, cannon butt 5 month old to a weight gaining, itch free, perfect poop machine 6 month old!! It took him less than 1 month to loose all the toxins from kibble that were messing with his system.
As for the ease of kibble vs. raw. During this time I still had the other 2 on kibble. I mean, they truly had no "real reason" to change. After about 4 months I decided to put them ALL on raw. I think it added about 4 min. to the process of giving them breakfast and dinner!! wow, what I could be doing with those 4 min!!
Oh wait, actually it's probably less. On Kibble Shelby never ate all her food, so I actually had to go back to her bowl, and dump the leftovers back in the container, so Khan wouldn't eat it! So that meant 5min. of standing waiting for her to get done picking at her food in order to put it back in the container. Hey, wait a min...now everyone eats ALL their food, they are even so considerate, they lick the bowls completely clean so I don't ever have to wash them so I actually GAINED time!!! 
So much for the convenience argument! LOL!!


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