# Help with dog food and is there any truth to "burning out the dogs kidneys"



## NewfieAussie (Feb 19, 2013)

I have been on a mission to learn about dog foods after getting my 4th dog, an Aussie puppy a few months ago.

I have been reading here daily, enjoying the vast information, opinions and even the disputes!

Just a rundown of my dogs, a 2 1/2 recently spayed Newfie(now getting overweight, I have to get that turned around fast), a hard keeper 12 yr old rough Collie, a recently spayed 5 yr old smooth Collie (also starting to get overweight) and the Aussie puppy I mentioned.

I had been feeding TOTW at the recommendation of the Newfie Breeder since I got Newfie at 10 weeks old. Then came the Diamond recall, I stopped TOTW and started feeding Acana at the recommendation of my sister.

Now with the new puppy I feel like I will need to feed at least two types of dog food, one for the chubby spayed females and hopefully one for both active puppy and slim 12 yr old Collie. 

So I thought I would start with what the local feed store sold in huge bags yesterday. I browsed around, decided on on a 44 lb Pro Pac Performance Puppy 30/20 - for 28.95. I get up to the old lady clerk that has worked there forever in our small town and she says to me" You don't want to feed that, it will burn their kidneys out". She then recommended the Diamond Maintainance 22/12. I bought nothing.

I went to the back of the feed store and wrote down the 20-25 types of dog food they sold....All the Diamond types, Pro Pac, Sportmix, Sportsman Pride, Ranchers Choice , Hunters Special, Country Value!, TOTW and Earthborn.

I left the feed store, decided I didn't need to support the local economy and here I am asking for help to figure out two types of food I should feed. Thank You


----------



## naturalfeddogs (Jan 6, 2011)

Welcome to DFC! :welcome: And congrats on the new puppy! I can't really help you too much with the kibble end of things since I am a raw feeder, but there are plenty here who can. Just wanted to say welcome, and would love to see pictures!


----------



## Unosmom (May 3, 2009)

How did you dogs do on Acana,? it's an all life stage food, so as long as you don't overfeed, all your dogs should be fine on it. 

I would not feed any of those foods you mentioned (earthborn is ok), most of them have the worst ingredients to appeal to hunters who want to feed a whole kennel of dogs and save few bucks.


----------



## RawPitbulls (Feb 7, 2013)

I would feed Orijen if I was going to feed kibble. Reason why I would ever feed kibble is beyond me.


----------



## Georgiapeach (Jan 24, 2011)

Acana is a good kibble; I prefer the grain free varieties. You don't need to feed as much of it as TOTW b/c it has a higher calorie count. Just cut back on the food and up the exercise.

I'm currently feeding TOTW Pacific Stream, due to budget restrictions. Acana grain free is really expensive here.


----------



## Shamrockmommy (Sep 10, 2009)

Welcome! Dog Food Protein | Frequently Asked Questions here is a link about high protein dog foods. Basically it's a myth that high protein causes kidney problems. You'll have to see how your dogs react but with my own, we tend to have tummy troubles with anything more than 30% protein. 
I have a 3 yr old spayed pwd who puts on weight very easily! What I did was back off on her serving amounts until she came to a nice weight where I can feel her ribs and she had no obvious fat belly, or squishy fat chest. For her (she's 50lbs) that turned out to be 1/2 cup twice a day. I add warm water to it and occasionally cooked veggies if she's looking for more. Many dogs are foodies anyway and would eat triple of what they need lol.

RawPitbulls, this is the dry/canned forum. 

My number one suggestion is- try one that fits your budget and is healthful and then take a look at how your dog is doing.


----------



## DaViking (Sep 27, 2011)

NewfieAussie said:


> I have been on a mission to learn about dog foods after getting my 4th dog, an Aussie puppy a few months ago.
> 
> I have been reading here daily, enjoying the vast information, opinions and even the disputes!
> 
> ...


First of all Diamond Maintenance 22/12 is poor choice, nothing I would ever feed. Secondly, no a 30/20 food will absolutely not "burn out" your dogs kidneys. That's just an ignorant statement from the lady clerk. In terms of kidney issues there are questions surrounding products with low quality meals and high ash content, such as Earthborn. Not to mention you pay for something that is potentially harmful. This have nothing to do with the amount of protein. Personally I have no problems recommending foods with protein up to 34%-35% Diamond is one of those who still uses old school high temperature extruding for most of their cheap foods. Meaning the likelihood of issues with free radicals is on the high side.

Do you have a price range you'd like to stay within? You should be able to find 1 food that will work for all your dogs. Too much carbs will not do your overweight dogs any good so you should be looking for an all life stages food between 20% to max 40% carbs. Oats, brown rice and barley are ok in your situation. Grain free is ok too but easy on the potatoes, legumes are good but can be a PITA if we are talking getting multiple dogs to digest them equally well.

Here's some you could look into:

Dr Tims Kinesis or Kinesis grain free
Annamaet Encore
GO Fit+Free or GO Refresh+Renew
Horizon Legacy or Pulsar
Acana Regionals

(Monster is gonna come down hard on me for recommending a Champion product. Hehe  )


----------



## PDXdogmom (Jun 30, 2010)

I agree with the information and suggestions in post #7. Currently my 12 yr. old golden and 5 yr. old lab both eat the all life stages Acana Pacifica with good results. I have to find formulas with no chicken and that are grain free. If I had other options I'd certainly take a look at Dr. Tims or Annamaet.


----------



## NewfieAussie (Feb 19, 2013)

Thank you for the replies.

Naturaldogs: Thanks for the warm welcome. Yes, I need to post a picture or two.

Unosmom: They do great on the Acana although I must be overfeeding it. Need to improve on lots of things, I have just been eyeballing it and pouring in their dog dishes without measuring. The Newfie got done fast so I'd give her more.

RawPitBulls: Hi! I have nephews living across Tampa Bay Bridge in Clearwater.

GeorgiaPeach: I never paid any attention to the calorie count until i started reading here. Didn't even know the label listed a calorie count. Definately need to cut back on the females. I've been ordering Acana from chewy.com and it does get expensive, especially when i overfeed!

Shamrockmommy: Thank you for the link on high protein foods. I like your veggie suggestion. My Newfie could be described as a total foodie after thinking about it. She stares at the food bin patiently to let me know when she's hungry.

DaViking: Thank you, I though the clerk made an ignorant statement but I started doubting myself. This dog food world is a bigger science than I realized and very interesting to me. Do you think Diamond uses the old school high temp extruding for TOTW? To answer your price range question, I just want to be a smart consummer, quality food, good for their health without throwing money away. I got a kick out of your monster comment, I hope he doesn't come down too hard on either of us. I'm scared! (not really).

PDXdogmom: That's exactly what am feeding now, the Pacifica. For some reason I thought I need two types but realize I had been overfeeding.

I am so glad a few of you mentioned I should be able to feed one dog food as that is what i prefer. Simplicity.


----------



## NewfieAussie (Feb 19, 2013)

I need to add one thing, a confession of sorts!

I am feeding Acana now, however, with this dog food obsession I have, I also have in stock (hidden in the back of my Tahoe), recently purchased from Chewy.com and Petflow.com a bag of Dr Tims Kinesis, Fromm Gold Puppy, Dr Tims Pursuit, Fromm Gold Adult, another bag of Pacifica and a bag of Victor Salmon grain free I bought in a nearby town. 

So you see I have a problem! Need one great food and stick with it! 

Whew! I feel better now! : )


----------



## Shamrockmommy (Sep 10, 2009)

There is nothing wrong with rotating a few foods as long as your dogs tolerate it. I usually stick with the grain free fromm foods but discovered everyone is tolerating innova prime chicken, and it's been a long time since I've fed chicken. So I'll add that to the rotation list.


----------



## Jack Monzon (Jul 25, 2010)

RawPitbulls said:


> I would feed Orijen if I was going to feed kibble. Reason why I would ever feed kibble is beyond me.


Reason why you're reading and replying in a "Dry Dog Food" forum is beyond me.


----------



## monster'sdad (Jul 29, 2012)

Jack Monzon said:


> Reason why you're reading and replying in a "Dry Dog Food" forum is beyond me.


Its part of the cult teaching....raw with a fallback on Orijen, despite fraudulent and misleading claims, and crappy quality Orijen gets a pass because of the Dog Park Food Police.

I would add Pro Pac to the list, OP, of the ones at your feed store that one is among the best and a real bargain. It is a far better food than its sister, Earthborn. Pro Pac Performance is one terrific food for the Aussie and Collies and Pro Pac Adult Chunk for the Newfie.


----------



## SaharaNight Boxers (Jun 28, 2011)

monster'sdad said:


> It part of the cult teaching....raw with a fallback on Orijen, despite fraudulent and misleading claims, and crappy qualityOrijen gets a pass because of the Dog Park Food Police.
> 
> I would add Pro Pac to the list, OP, of the ones at your feed store that one is among the best and a real bargain. It is a far better food than its sister, Earthborn.


I really think you need to relax with the cult thing. Is it your word of the week or..? Lots of people have had success with Orijen even though you don't personally like it.


----------



## monster'sdad (Jul 29, 2012)

SaharaNight Boxers said:


> I really think you need to relax with the cult thing. Is it your word of the week or..? Lots of people have had success with Orijen even though you don't personally like it.


It is very accurate. Orijen has about lowest repeat buying of any brand sold. 

The proof of the cult is that people ignore the recalls, the lies about ingredients, the real facts about the Australia incident, the fact the foods tested positive for BHA/BHT and the fact the company was sold 2 years ago. When Natura was sold the world was up in arms. Stores dropped the line and people boycotted stores. Could you imagine if Purina put a BSE positive cow in its foods like Champion did? 

Oh lord.....

So if that is not a cult mentality, nothing is.

I just think people are still smarting from the new science that is pretty clear that things like grains are the real "prey model".

*"Our results show that it was crucial for the survival of early dogs to be able to live on food that largely consisted of vegetables, such as root vegetables and cereals”, says Erik Axelsson"*

It says "largely".

*"That food was obviously the same kind of food that we were eating," says Axelsson, claiming that these proto-dogs probably subsisted on roots, porridge, and bread much like our human ancestors."*

Some of the foods at her feed store are just fine.


----------



## MollyWoppy (Mar 19, 2010)

How do you know that Orijen has the lowest repeat buying of any brand sold? Wouldn't that be the death knell of a company if no-one continued to buy their product? How do they survive?
What about the Purina recalls in 2007 during the melamine recall when hundreds, if not thousands of dogs and cats died or were sickened. People tend to forget about that. 
And, Pro Pac, there appears to me to be only chicken meal, corn, rice flour and beef pulp in the food. I would personally want more meat/meal for my dog. 

Chicken Meal, Ground Yellow Corn, Chicken Fat (preserved with mixed Tocopherols, a source of Vitamin E), Rice Flour, Dried Beet Pulp, Natural Flavoring, Flaxseed, Yeast Culture, Salt, Potassium Chloride, Choline Chloride, DL-Methionine Hydroxy Analogue, L-Lysine, Vitamin E Supplement, D-Activated Animal Sterol (source of Vitamin D3), Vitamin A Acetate, Niacin, D-Calcium Pantothenate, Biotin, Vitamin B12 Supplement, Riboflavin Supplement, Thiamine Mononitrate, Ascorbic Acid, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride (Vitamin B6), Folic Acid, Manganous Oxide, Ferrous Sulfate, Copper Sulfate, Zinc Oxide, Calcium Iodate, Zinc Proteinate, Manganese Proteinate, Iron Proteinate, Magnesium Proteinate, Copper Proteinate.

Even Dr Tims has more meat in it:
*Ingredients:*
Chicken meal, brown rice flour, pearled barley, oat flour, chicken fat (preserved with mixed tocopherols and citric acid), dried beet pulp (sugar removed), dried whole eggs, rice bran, ocean herring meal, catfish meal, flax seed meal, chicken liver meal, dried porcine plasma protein, salmon meal, menhaden fish oil (preserved with mixed tocopherols and citric acid), salt, lecithin, potassium chloride, calcium carbonate, canola oil, dried Enterococcus faecium fermentation product, dried Saccharomyces cerevisiae fermentation product, dried Lactobacillus acidophilus fermentation product, psyllium seed husk, dried chicory root, dried organic kelp meal, yucca shidigera extract, L- lysine, choline cloride, DL-methionine, algae fat product (a source of DHA), taurine, L-ascorbyl-2-polyphosphate (stabilized ascorbic acid), glucosamine, vitamin E supplement, L-carnitine, zinc sulfate, zinc proteinate, beta carotene, ferrous sulfate, ascorbic acid (source of vitamin C), manganese sulfate, inositol, niacin supplement, iron proteinate, manganese proteinate, zinc oxide, biotin, thiamine mononitrate (source of vitamin B1), copper sulfate, pyridoxine hydrochloride (source of vitamin B6), copper proteinate, vitamin A supplement, riboflavin supplement (source of vitamin B2), calcium pantothenate, potassium iodide (source of iodine), manganous oxide, vitamin B12 supplement, sodium selenite, vitamin D3 supplement, folic acid, rosemary extract.


----------



## SaharaNight Boxers (Jun 28, 2011)

Key word for me is survival. To survive is not always to do the best possible. Actually, I don't know why you really felt the need to put that in there as I said nothing about carbs or grains being in pet food. And I don't believe it's a cult mentality. People see results and like what they get so they stick with it. If anything I think te lowest repeat is die to price. From what I've heard people say they love the results, but not the price tag. Most seem to go to Acana or a totally different brand with no problem 

Not to mention couldn't we say you are in a cult? You're absolutely dedicated to Ohio Pet Foods and know almost everything about them. Obviously that took a lot of time to learn so you devoted a lot of time to it. Which isn't necessarily bad. A cult is an extreme dedication to something or someone. Couldn't we say Dr. Tim's would be yours?


----------



## monster'sdad (Jul 29, 2012)

SaharaNight Boxers said:


> Key word for me is survival. To survive is not always to do the best possible. Actually, I don't know why you really felt the need to put that in there as I said nothing about carbs or grains being in pet food. And I don't believe it's a cult mentality. People see results and like what they get so they stick with it. If anything I think te lowest repeat is die to price. From what I've heard people say they love the results, but not the price tag. Most seem to go to Acana or a totally different brand with no problem
> 
> Not to mention couldn't we say you are in a cult? You're absolutely dedicated to Ohio Pet Foods and know almost everything about them. Obviously that took a lot of time to learn so you devoted a lot of time to it. Which isn't necessarily bad. A cult is an extreme dedication to something or someone. Couldn't we say Dr. Tim's would be yours?


No not at all. I use Dr. Tim's for sure, but Pro Pac would be fine too as would Pro Plan, and you know I don't make decisions based on reading the label.

As for that study, it is proof that the dog forum dogma has been 110% wrong. When a scientist uses the word "survive" it doesn't mean what you think. Dogs are the ultimate garbage-picking omnivores.


----------



## NewfieAussie (Feb 19, 2013)

My head is spinning reading about nitrogen levels produced depending on the quality of the protein. I need to tackle this slowly.

I have been looking at the foods DaViking listed and have a question. 

Why does Annamaet Encore choose to use brown rice and rolled oats vs Dr Tims Kinesis using brown rice flour and oat flour? Otherwise they appear to my untrained eye rather similar.

Monster, I will add the Pro Pacs to the list to consider. Thanks


----------



## MNBark (Jan 23, 2013)

monster'sdad said:


> "...that these proto-dogs probably subsisted on roots, porridge, and bread much like our human ancestors."[/B]


Subsisted means that life was maintained. The word, by its nature, damns with faint praise. 

I say that as someone who has no issue with roots or porridge, but the quote seems to be saying these dogs were adaptable, eating what was available, rather than this is what they'd eat in the best of all possible worlds. We know that, because we've all seen it. That these "proto-dogs" were adaptable is fortunate, that modern dogs are adaptable is also fortunate. Again, I don't think these are bad ingredients, but I don't see why most people here would smart over the results. 

Depending on the philosophy of the person, they will either feel gratified that this matches what they are doing, or they will be underwhelmed at something that stands to reason -- dogs and people do what they need to do, and eat what is available -- but which changes little.


----------



## danea (Oct 25, 2008)

*MollyWoppy*
It is impossible to know how much meat is in the formula only by reading ingredient panel.
Brand A could use 60% chicken meal and only that and brand B could use 20% raw chicken, 15% turkey meal, 8 salmon meal, 6 lamb meal, 4 herring meal, 2 rabbit meal, brand B would definitely look more meatier, but actually would contain much less meat meal, around 40ish%



> Why does Annamaet Encore choose to use brown rice and rolled oats vs Dr Tims Kinesis using brown rice flour and oat flour


Flour has higher digestibility


----------



## NewfieAussie (Feb 19, 2013)

I've been looking at the companies that make the foods on my list. (thanks DaViking and Monster) 

1. Elmira/Petcurean: for the two "GO" products

2. Ohio pet foods: for the Annamaet and two Dr Tims

3. Champion: for the Acana

4. Horizon: for the Pulsar and Legacy

5. Midwest Pet Foods: for the ProPac Performance and Adult Chunk

My first mission is to narrow down my list and eliminate the companies that don't use the low temp, gentle processing with high grade meats. I want to keep the free radicals to a minimum. (Do I sound like I know what I'm talking about because I must admit I am only beginning to understand, barely!) The more I study this the more I realize I don't know.


Can anyone help me scratch a few companies/lines off my list?


Also;danea- thanks for the explanation and answer

JackMonzon- : )

MollyWoppy-interesting questions

SaharaNightBoxers and MNBark- Yes! I don't want my dogs to just survive or subsist but to thrive and hopefully ward off any long term health problems in their later years.

Thank you all.


----------



## DaViking (Sep 27, 2011)

NewfieAussie said:


> I've been looking at the companies that make the foods on my list. (thanks DaViking and Monster)
> 
> 1. Elmira/Petcurean: for the two "GO" products
> 
> ...


All of those manufacturers are good as far as I am concerned. I know Monster never liked Champion but they do have a brand new production line now and they certainly do not use old extruders with extreme high heat. Modern extruders should work between 90 and 130 degrees Celsius, variable pressure. The one I am most unsure of is Midwest. Honestly for your situation with some obese dogs in the mix I would drop ProPac. Not because it is a bad food, I will probably recommend it to others with dogs in a different situation but for your use I don't think it is right. Just my $0.02


----------



## Unosmom (May 3, 2009)

All of those are good minus pro-pac. I used to work for midwestern as sales rep and even though they are nice people, completely clueless about nutrition. The guy in charge of training basically told us to push propac and sportmix because of the low price. His big sales pitch was that sportmix used meat protein instead of soy which was better for dogs. Except he left out a part where it doesn't say what kind of animal it is, just says "meat meal". 

The store I work at sells Earthborn, which is fine, it's not my favorite but for the price is decent enough. Personally I would go with Acana or Horizon


----------



## monster'sdad (Jul 29, 2012)

Unosmom said:


> All of those are good minus pro-pac. I used to work for midwestern as sales rep and even though they are nice people, completely clueless about nutrition. The guy in charge of training basically told us to push propac and sportmix because of the low price. His big sales pitch was that sportmix used meat protein instead of soy which was better for dogs. Except he left out a part where it doesn't say what kind of animal it is, just says "meat meal".
> 
> The store I work at sells Earthborn, which is fine, it's not my favorite but for the price is decent enough. Personally I would go with Acana or Horizon


So on that basis, how in the world could you recommend anything made by Midwestern Pet Foods?? If they are that clueless why would Earthborn be any different. By the way, the meat meal is 80% beef and 20% pork. I have that in writing.


----------



## meggels (May 30, 2010)

RawPitbulls said:


> I would feed Orijen if I was going to feed kibble. Reason why I would ever feed kibble is beyond me.


Okay, seriously? We are in the Dry & Canned section. These kind of comments are such BS.


----------



## meggels (May 30, 2010)

Unosmom said:


> All of those are good minus pro-pac. I used to work for midwestern as sales rep and even though they are nice people, completely clueless about nutrition. The guy in charge of training basically told us to push propac and sportmix because of the low price. His big sales pitch was that sportmix used meat protein instead of soy which was better for dogs. Except he left out a part where it doesn't say what kind of animal it is, just says "meat meal".
> 
> The store I work at sells Earthborn, which is fine, it's not my favorite but for the price is decent enough. Personally I would go with Acana or Horizon


No offense, but just because you worked for them for a few weeks and had one clueless territory manager does not mean the whole company is a joke. They have been around for quite awhile and I worked for them for close to a *year* and have nothing but positive things to say about the company. My territory manager actually wanted us to focus on Earthborn, not Pro Pac, so obviously, one person does not equal the entire company. Midwestern Pet Foods is pretty reliable and a good company from what I understand from research.


----------



## monster'sdad (Jul 29, 2012)

danea said:


> *MollyWoppy*
> It is impossible to know how much meat is in the formula only by reading ingredient panel.
> Brand A could use 60% chicken meal and only that and brand B could use 20% raw chicken, 15% turkey meal, 8 salmon meal, 6 lamb meal, 4 herring meal, 2 rabbit meal, brand B would definitely look more meatier, but actually would contain much less meat meal, around 40ish%
> 
> ...


They are the same ingredients except for the grind. The smaller the particle the more surface area, so its easier to cook completely. I don't think you would see a difference in the dog but technically the whole grain flours have an edge on paper. Any grain has to be ground extremely fine anyway.


----------



## monster'sdad (Jul 29, 2012)

meggels said:


> No offense, but just because you worked for them for a few weeks and had one clueless territory manager does not mean the whole company is a joke. They have been around for quite awhile and I worked for them for close to a *year* and have nothing but positive things to say about the company. My territory manager actually wanted us to focus on Earthborn, not Pro Pac, so obviously, one person does not equal the entire company. Midwestern Pet Foods is pretty reliable and a good company from what I understand from research.


Midwestern is a very reliable company that serves a certain price point, SportMix and ProPac are great foods and great values. The people that use them are average, hardworking people and families that love their pets just as much as the Dog Food Police.

In many cases, those dogs also are fine sport and hunting dogs owned by very experienced people that know their craft. Pro Pac HP is one of the top 30/20's. SportMix Black Bag is also one of the better performance foods you can buy.


----------



## Unosmom (May 3, 2009)

Meg-I have no problem with the company, but that manager rubbed me the wrong way, he completely ignored any of my questions and basically told me to lie about the food in order to sell. 



> By the way, the meat meal is 80% beef and 20% pork. I have that in writing.


Why is it not listed on the label then?


----------



## danea (Oct 25, 2008)

*monster'sdad*
Might also be due to fiber, flours with less fiber are more digestible
But probably depends on manufacturer 

Have you lately notice any changes in pro pac quality?


----------



## monster'sdad (Jul 29, 2012)

Unosmom said:


> Meg-I have no problem with the company, but that manager rubbed me the wrong way, he completely ignored any of my questions and basically told me to lie about the food in order to sell.
> 
> 
> 
> Why is it not listed on the label then?


When meats are mixed it has to be labelled that way. Its the same for Poultry Meal, a mix of chicken and turkey.

Each batch could be slightly different so they are required to label it that way.


----------



## monster'sdad (Jul 29, 2012)

danea said:


> *monster'sdad*
> Might also be due to fiber, flours with less fiber are more digestible
> But probably depends on manufacturer
> 
> Have you lately notice any changes in pro pac quality?


I haven't heard anything and it is a very popular food at my club.


----------



## NewfieAussie (Feb 19, 2013)

I decided for starters to break out the lowest priced grain free food and take a closer look at it.

It is the the Horizon Pulsar 28/15. It would cost me 1.79/lb from petflow.

The website had some interesting information I thought I would share, hoping it is fact and not propaganda.

Horizon explains why they add red lentils and peas to their grain free Pulsar. To begin, a pulse is the edible seed of legume plants. Maybe everyone here already knew. They add red lentils not only for the protein but because it is a low glycemic food among other reasons.

Here is what I came up with about red lentils and peas:

1. They are high in antioxidants which fight off free radicals and toxins.

2. They provide fiber and improve digestibility.

3. They reduce the glycemic index.

All sounds good to me(but what do I know- very little). I plan to look up on the FDA site some of the ingredients further down the list. The #1 ingredient is chicken meal. This food as 408 calories/cup and has an ash level of 6.8.

Next I looked at Annamaet Encore 25/14. $1.37/lb from chewy

It too has chicken meal #1. It has brown rice and oats that DaViking said would be good for my particular four dogs. It has a lower calorie count at 365/cup that may be helpful for my overweight females and an ash of 6.5. It also has menhaden fish meal and oil for amino acid profile and Omega 3's that I didn't see in the Pulsar.

I could probably stop my search and pick one of the two reasonably priced foods but then the fun would be over! I plan to look at Dr Tims Grain Free and regular Kinesis next as they are $1.80 and $1.40/lb. I think I will have the two Midwest products be my local backup and the other four on the list are over $2.00/lb and wait to look at those- the two Go's, Horizon Legacy and Champion Acana.

Please feel free to correct me as I don't claim to know anything.........yet!


----------



## MollyWoppy (Mar 19, 2010)

Thought, what about the arsenic in rice that they are going on about nowadays? Something to be concerned about or not?


----------



## Unosmom (May 3, 2009)

> When meats are mixed it has to be labelled that way. Its the same for Poultry Meal, a mix of chicken and turkey.


They can still list it as separate ingredients, all it tells me is that they are using some generic meal which could be a mix of anything, not exactly trustworthy.


----------



## Shamrockmommy (Sep 10, 2009)

The only way to eliminate some of the choices in your list is to try them on your dogs and see how they do. I've been really happy with grain free fromm. Grains can be fine for some dogs (or people) but can be pro inflammatory and cause weight gain. My dogs are also less gassy and have much less offensive stool. I'm currently I babysitting my cousins dog who is on Fromm (one with grain in it) and has has terrible smelly gas, horrible gloppy poo. I'm trying to convince cousin to try grain free but I'm close to just switching him over anyway. Pew!


----------



## monster'sdad (Jul 29, 2012)

Unosmom said:


> They can still list it as separate ingredients, all it tells me is that they are using some generic meal which could be a mix of anything, not exactly trustworthy.


You are worrying too much. Actually they can say it is a mix of beef and pork in an email but they can't on the label. If Midwestern is not trustworthy about SportMix how can you trust them about Earthborn?

There are few labelling things you might not be aware, "Fish Meal", any kind actually, can contain fish by-products and "Lamb Meal" CAN contain lamb by-products. You will see the word "tissue" is used not "flesh" like in chicken. Most "fish meal" comes from large ships that catch and process food for people. The guts, skin, bones and some meat drop to another part of the ship to be dried and packaged. If your food says "Whitefish Meal" I would bet a bottle of good scotch it came from a ship working for McDonalds.

The fear "meat meal" is dead dogs and cats is simply not real. DNA tests are regularly done and a company like Midwestern is simply not going to take a risk like that. Also, think about it, any disgruntled employee could easily throw the company under the bus, but you don't see that. 

You are right it could contain goat meat, theoretically, but who cares really.

If you look at the MSDS sheets from various suppliers of "Meat Meal" it will state clearly the product is 100% made of beef and pork and they are FDA-Aphis inspected.


----------



## danea (Oct 25, 2008)

*NewfieAussie*
It is better to compare them by ME/KG, not by cups
Pulsar is 3685 KCAL ME/KG and Encore 3671 ME/KG. as you can see there is not much difference.
correct that, pulsar chicken is 3665


----------



## Unosmom (May 3, 2009)

The only reason I "trust" earhborn is because the proteins are named, like bison. Not the food I would feed regardless. if you're comfortable feeding mystery meat, it's your choice, some of us put little more consideration into what our pets eat.


----------



## DaViking (Sep 27, 2011)

Unosmom said:


> some of us put little more consideration into what our pets eat.


Maybe he still considers exactly what you consider, meat meals in this case, but choose to put equal or more emphasis on other aspect of a food?


----------



## RawPitbulls (Feb 7, 2013)

NewfieAussie said:


> RawPitBulls: Hi! I have nephews living across Tampa Bay Bridge in Clearwater.


Hello! Clearwater is only about 20-30 minutes from my home! I go there and eat at "Frenchy's" from time to time! Small world!


----------



## monster'sdad (Jul 29, 2012)

Unosmom said:


> The only reason I "trust" earhborn is because the proteins are named, like bison. Not the food I would feed regardless. if you're comfortable feeding mystery meat, it's your choice, some of us put little more consideration into what our pets eat.


It says it right on the MSDS that "meat meal" is beef and pork. You don't understand the labelling rules that's all. If Midwestern Pet Foods was untrustworthy enough to scam you on SportMix, then how do you know if the Bison is really Bison? Did you ask the FDA for a label audit?

*"Section II - Hazardous Ingredients/Identity Information
Hazardous Components - Contains no Hazardous Components as described in the Hazard Communication Standard
Substance - Dehydrated Beef and Pork By-products CAS Number N/A
Trade Names - Meat Meal, Meat By-product Meal, Meat & Bone Meal
Chemical Family: Protein Supplement with associated fatty and mineral components
Molecular Formula: N/A Molecular Weight: N/A
Components and Contaminants
Components: Dehydrated Beef and Pork Protein and Bone Percent: 100% Dehydrated Blood Protein
Other Contaminants: None Exposure Limits: N/A
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------"*


----------



## Unosmom (May 3, 2009)

That doesn't make me feel any better, what are pork byproducts? If a pet food company is going to use byproducts, at least label what is is, whether it's organ meat or something else like tumors (obviously thats not going on a bag). Also, it appears as though majority of meat meal is imported from China and with their lax regulations, god knows what they feed their pigs or what chemicals they use to process is. How is Sportmix any different than meal meat listed on cheap grocery store foods like beneful and pedigree? Is there "premium" meat meal? 
Also, where do you have in in writing what ingredients Midwestern uses? If you dont think they use bison, how can you be sure they are using beef and not roadkill?


----------



## FBarnes (Feb 17, 2013)

MSDS? Does AAFCO say pet food companies follow any kind of MSDS? DO they follow any kind of MSDS? 

Pet food doesn't fall in any guideline that would require MSDS! Where do you get that?

This is the AAFCO definition of meat meal: "Meat Meal - the rendered product from mammal tissues, exclusive of blood, hair, hoof, horn, hide trimmings, manure, stomach and rumen contents except in such amounts as may occur unavoidably in good processing practices."

I don't see anything about beef or pork.


----------



## FBarnes (Feb 17, 2013)

MSDS stands for: MAterial Safety Data Sheets. For those who haven't heard of them. They are specific to hazards of compounds. They don't specify WHAT something has to be. They say if it is something, it's thus and so level of dangerous. I can't see that it has a darn thing to do with what's in our pet food.

Edited to add: This is the definition of an MSDS sheet: "A Material Safety Data Sheet (MSDS) is required under the OSHA Hazard Communication Standard. The MSDS is a detailed informational document prepared by the manufacturer or importer of a *hazardous chemical*. It describes the physical and chemical properties of the product. MSDSâ€™s contain *useful information such as flash point, toxicity, procedures for spills and leaks, and storage guidelines*. For an explanation of the terms used in MSDS's, click here. Information included in a Material Safety Data Sheet aids in the selection of safe products, helps you understand the potential health and physical hazards of a chemical and describes how to respond effectively to exposure situations. Although there is an effort currently underway to standardizes MSDSâ€™s the quality of individual MSDSâ€™s vary. A MSDS may be useful but it can not substitute for prudent practices and comprehensive risk management."

I have worked for companies that make their own MSDS. They aren't the same from place to place. There is certainly no standard MSDS for pet food even IF it would be helpful, which it wouldn't be - because it addresses toxicity and hazard. Although I guess that would be appropriate for some meats in pet food.

http://www.ehso.com/msdsei.php


----------



## DaViking (Sep 27, 2011)

Unosmom said:


> That doesn't make me feel any better, what are pork byproducts? If a pet food company is going to use byproducts, at least label what is is,


No other named source than chicken have the sub group by-products. For example, there is no fish, lamb or venison by-product meal. Just a named meal and that's it.


----------



## DaViking (Sep 27, 2011)

My beef with meat meal, sorry for the pun, isn't so much the sources, it's by-products of the (pigs and cattle) slaughtering industry but rather how formulas who uses only or predominantly meat meal can guarantee consistency. If it is one thing meat meal is known for it's nutritional inconsistency.


----------



## DaViking (Sep 27, 2011)

FBarnes said:


> MSDS stands for: MAterial Safety Data Sheets. For those who haven't heard of them. They are specific to hazards of compounds. They don't specify WHAT something has to be. They say if it is something, it's thus and so level of dangerous. I can't see that it has a darn thing to do with what's in our pet food.
> 
> Edited to add: This is the definition of an MSDS sheet: "A Material Safety Data Sheet (MSDS) is required under the OSHA Hazard Communication Standard. The MSDS is a detailed informational document prepared by the manufacturer or importer of a *hazardous chemical*. It describes the physical and chemical properties of the product. MSDSâ€™s contain *useful information such as flash point, toxicity, procedures for spills and leaks, and storage guidelines*. For an explanation of the terms used in MSDS's, click here. Information included in a Material Safety Data Sheet aids in the selection of safe products, helps you understand the potential health and physical hazards of a chemical and describes how to respond effectively to exposure situations. Although there is an effort currently underway to standardizes MSDSâ€™s the quality of individual MSDSâ€™s vary. A MSDS may be useful but it can not substitute for prudent practices and comprehensive risk management."
> 
> ...


Don't know how it works south of the border but Canadian rendering plants are required to keep similar material safety data sheets detailing the content and the sources of their products. The requirements are very strict and there is no more drive-by dumping into a "catch-all mammal bin" But you are correct, this has nothing todo with AAFCO.


----------



## monster'sdad (Jul 29, 2012)

FBarnes said:


> MSDS? Does AAFCO say pet food companies follow any kind of MSDS? DO they follow any kind of MSDS?
> 
> Pet food doesn't fall in any guideline that would require MSDS! Where do you get that?
> 
> ...


You are correct "meat meal" is intended to define a mixed meat product. Midwestern uses a blend that is beef and pork, which most are anyway. The MSDS sheet just shows it. Most food products are required to have MSDS sheets. Flour does because technically you can inhale it and die, LOLOL.

The law requires every food product to have one if there is any downproduction risk, not only potential chemical contamination.

As for Unosmom question, Pork, Venison, Bison, Lamb and Fish Meal are allowed to contain by-products under one definition "XX Meal".


----------



## FBarnes (Feb 17, 2013)

Yes but it's the hazard of it, not the content. There could be an MSDS for any number of "meals" and probably are. MSDS don't address what it is, just what it does if inhaled, exploded, touches your skin etc.

Dog food producers in the US at least - and sorry I was assuming US, didn't consider Canada - are always bragging about how they follow AAFCO standards, and AAFCO standards allow for just about anything that once walked on four legs to become part of "meat" ingredients in dog food.


----------



## monster'sdad (Jul 29, 2012)

FBarnes said:


> Yes but it's the hazard of it, not the content. There could be an MSDS for any number of "meals" and probably are. MSDS don't address what it is, just what it does if inhaled, exploded, touches your skin etc.
> 
> Dog food producers in the US at least - and sorry I was assuming US, didn't consider Canada - are always bragging about how they follow AAFCO standards, and AAFCO standards allow for just about anything that once walked on four legs to become part of "meat" ingredients in dog food.


MSDS Sheets are generated for almost everything nowadays because the OSHA rules are so vague.


----------



## doggiedad (Jan 23, 2011)

why do you have feed 1 brand of food? if all of the brands you chose are good
feed all of them. 



NewfieAussie said:


> I need to add one thing, a confession of sorts!
> 
> I am feeding Acana now, however, with this dog food obsession I have, I also have in stock (hidden in the back of my Tahoe), recently purchased from Chewy.com and Petflow.com a bag of Dr Tims Kinesis, Fromm Gold Puppy, Dr Tims Pursuit, Fromm Gold Adult, another bag of Pacifica and a bag of Victor Salmon grain free I bought in a nearby town.
> 
> ...


----------



## NewfieAussie (Feb 19, 2013)

After a day of grooming, playing with and enjoying my dogs, especially watching the Aussie puppy pestering everyone and getting them to run and play yesterday, I am back to do a little math about choosing grain free versus traditional kibble.


I looked at a link to a pdf. DaViking posted back on 7-31 that showed Daily Calorie Requirements.I picked two of my four dogs to look at to keep things simple and two of the foods.

My Newfoundland weighs 136lbs-spayed female. I am thinking she should be closer to 126lbs.

The thin neutered male Collie is about 58lbs, I think he needs to be closer to 63lbs.

For weight loss according to the chart the Newfie should get about 1658 calories per day.

It lists the calorie requirement for a 60 lb neutered dog at 1336 so to gain I used 1419 which was the calories for a 65 lb dog. 

Somewhere I read to average 400 calories a cup for a general ballpark figure, and 1gm protein/day needed for lb of weight.

If I choose Annamaet Encore traditional 25/14 off my list I would feed the Newfie about 4 cups for weight loss and she would get 25X4=100 grams of protein a day, if I choose Dr Tims Grain Free Kinesis she would get 32X4=128 grams of protein.

For the Collie if I fed 3.5 cups to gain weight, with the Annamaet Encore 25/14 3.5x25=87 grams protein and the Dr Tims Grain Free would be 32x3.5=112. The amount fed per day would decrease after he gains 5 lbs and be closer to 75 grams/day using Encore and 96grams/day on Grain Free Kinesis.

So, to me it looks like I am right in the middle of choosing traditional versus grain free. It would probably be OK to go either way. 

If I am over thinking this, or way off on my numbers I will just put my list of dog food names in hat, put a blindfold on , spin around, pick one and see how it works. I like them all, the Annamaet, Dr Tims, Horizon, Go, Acana and ProPac. They all have their strong points. Mainly I am just wondering if I should concentrate in the traditional or grain free. Thanks everyone for your comments.


----------



## Shamrockmommy (Sep 10, 2009)

You may well be over thinking this. All the foods you listed are all good foods. I personally prefer grain free because it works best for my dogs. Grain inclusive foods cause gas and loose stool, and I don't want to be indoors with farting dogs nor do I want to scoop messy cowpies, so grain free it is. 

I've rotated Fromm's grain free lines and love them. I don't like the grain inclusive ones for the reasons above. I'm trying another, innova prime, and it's working great for two of my three but constipating the other so she gets to stick with Fromm. It's a matter of finding a company you trust and a food (or a few in a rotation, rotating can be good!) that works well for each dog in accordance with your wishes. 

Also, I calculated calories also for mine at one point and it still ended up being too many calories for all three, but they ar spayed couch potatoes. What I do is use measuring cups, feel the ribs frequently so I know their body condition and adjust up or down from there.

Don't worry so much, they'll be fine, I can tell you are a great caretaker!


----------



## InkedMarie (Sep 9, 2011)

I'm no expert, NewfieAussie but I too think you're over thinking this. If you have a few foods to choose from, use them all.


----------



## NewfieAussie (Feb 19, 2013)

It's finally sinking in that I don't have to decide on one food right now. There is the ingredience panel, G.A., what to avoid, ash level, type of food, protein levels, math formulas, different manufacturing plants and on and on to pay attention to. It is most interesting to me the significance of the temperature dog food is cooked at and how it affects the kibble and health of the dog. It am also finally understanding that I need to try the foods on my particular dogs to see how they do. Its not black and white what to feed.

So that is what I'll do, paying close attention to how the dogs respond, and checking their weight and watching how much I feed. 

Thanks to all of you for your comments and pointing me in the right direction of what to try. I'll stick around, keep reading and let you know how it goes.


----------

