# Newbie Confused on Bone %



## marklaker

Watched the Pet Fooled documentary on Netflix last month and it absolutely floored me. I'm now devouring everything I can on raw feeding to educate myself for the transition. One aspect I'm struggling with is the percentage of bone in the diet, as there seems to be a wide array of differences. I see many here use the 80/10/10 plan, while others subscribe to RMB percentages as high as 60%. I'd appreciate any insight and advice others might like to share. I have a 16 week old Goldendoodle, who projects to be 60-70 lbs at full growth. Calcium is a vital mineral for any dog, but especially for a still growing pup in the formative years so I don't want to screw this up. Thanks in advance!


Edit: After a bit more research, it appears I may be confusing/commingling Prey Model with BARF. Looks like I need to do some more in-depth research. I'd still appreciate any insight others might have.


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## naturalfeddogs

Welcome! I've been raw feeding for around 10 years, and have never worried about percentages of anything. 10% is just a guide. Some dogs may do better with more or less. Of my six, they are all different on the amount of bone they actually need. The whole 80/10/10 is a guide, and made up by someone at some time. Your dog may need bone daily, or maybe every couple of days. It's easy to stress over all this and make it more difficult than it needs to be. Prey model is designed to mimic the way they eat in the wild, and there are no percentages there. The key is variety, and you will be fine. In fact, more balanced than in the wild even.

I have an aussie puppy about the age of yours right now. You feed them the same as an adult, only more. More as in at least three times a day. They tend to wean themselves off of the three times as they grow and need less. That has been my experience with all puppies I have started on raw. You won't mess it up.


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## OtherGuy

The ratio of calcium to phosphorus in a canine diet is critically important. While due respect to fellow posters ignoring bone percentages risks mineral imbalances which can cause very severe health consequences on either side of the imbalance.

There is no aspect of canine nutrition that is less controversial. Even the worst commercial kibbles are formulated 1.2:1 (Calcium to Phosphorus).

An 80/10/10 diet will keep Calciumhosphorus ratios in the ideal range. I would strongly advise getting pretty close to the targets. It isn't difficult or stress-full.

What would be stressful is to induce a serious health problem on a beloved dog via inattention to the basics of PMR feeding. It isn't "just a guide", but a target for hitting critical nutritional needs.

Our dogs are not in the wild, but are dependent on us for supplying them with meals that meet their very well established needs.

Bill


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## MyDogIsMyBestFriend

You will be able to balance calcium and phosphorus as long as you are not feeding your dog meat only. RMB (raw meaty bone) are good source of calcium and you need to make sure that you are feeding your dog between 10%-25% bone content using the body weight formula ( 2%-3% of expected ideal adult weight) and this will also depend on the RMB that you feed your dog. Whether your dog is on a BARF or PMR model, the bone percentage (of the overall diet) recommendation would average between 10%-15%. Hope that helps!


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## naturalfeddogs

MyDogIsMyBestFriend said:


> You will be able to balance calcium and phosphorus as long as you are not feeding your dog meat only. RMB (raw meaty bone) are good source of calcium and you need to make sure that you are feeding your dog between 10%-25% bone content using the body weight formula ( 2%-3% of expected ideal adult weight) and this will also depend on the RMB that you feed your dog. Whether your dog is on a BARF or PMR model, the bone percentage (of the overall diet) recommendation would average between 10%-15%. Hope that helps!


As long as you are not feeding meat only, exactly. By feeding a variety, and including bone the percentages will be met. It's not rocket science. That's the point of variety....including all nutrients, balanced out over time. That's the way it works out for the wolves in the wild as well, only ours probably get better balance and variety than even they do.


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## OtherGuy

MyDogIsMyBestFriend said:


> You will be able to balance calcium and phosphorus as long as you are not feeding your dog meat only. RMB (raw meaty bone) are good source of calcium and you need to make sure that you are feeding your dog between 10%-25% bone content using the body weight formula ( 2%-3% of expected ideal adult weight) and this will also depend on the RMB that you feed your dog. Whether your dog is on a BARF or PMR model, the bone percentage (of the overall diet) recommendation would average between 10%-15%. Hope that helps!


Sorry, but this is not correct. 

Feeding 25% bone over a sustained period would significantly throw off the 1.2:1 Calcium/Phosphorus determined to be ideal for canines in favor of over calcification.

It isn't "rocket science," but it is science.

Dogs don't eat in "the wild." They eat what we give them, If we give them an imbalanced diet, they will suffer the consequences.

Bill


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## MyDogIsMyBestFriend

OtherGuy said:


> Sorry, but this is not correct.
> 
> Feeding 25% bone over a sustained period would significantly throw off the 1.2:1 Calcium/Phosphorus determined to be ideal for canines in favor of over calcification.
> 
> It isn't "rocket science," but it is science.
> 
> Dogs don't eat in "the wild." They eat what we give them, If we give them an imbalanced diet, they will suffer the consequences.
> 
> Bill


Hello again, I do apologize if my statement earlier wasn't clear. The 10%-25% bone content that I am pertaining to is not synonymous with the PRM 80/10/10 or BARF 70/10/10/10 ratio but the bone/meat distribution of individual RMBs. We all know for a fact that animal parts are not created equal, some are bonier and some are meatier. Say, a chicken leg quarter is approx. 30% bone content, duck neck is 50% and beef ribs approx. 52%. Also, I do want to quote Dr. Billinghurst, he said _"Approximate biological balance is achieved so long as meat alone is not the principal dietary component. That job must be left to the RMBs. When a young and growing dog eats RMBs, if the bone to meat ratio is around 1:1, then the balance of calcium and phosphorus is appropriate for bone mineralization and formation."_ I hope that clears the air!


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## OtherGuy

MyDogIsMyBestFriend said:


> Hello again, I do apologize if my statement earlier wasn't clear. The 10%-25% bone content that I am pertaining to is not synonymous with the PRM 80/10/10 or BARF 70/10/10/10 ratio but the bone/meat distribution of individual RMBs. We all know for a fact that animal parts are not created equal, some are bonier and some are meatier. Say, a chicken leg quarter is approx. 30% bone content, duck neck is 50% and beef ribs approx. 52%. Also, I do want to quote Dr. Billinghurst, he said _"Approximate biological balance is achieved so long as meat alone is not the principal dietary component. That job must be left to the RMBs. When a young and growing dog eats RMBs, if the bone to meat ratio is around 1:1, then the balance of calcium and phosphorus is appropriate for bone mineralization and formation."_ I hope that clears the air!


To be clear, a 20% bone-in piece needs to be balanced with an approximately equal sized portion of boneless meat to provide a dog with the correct mineral balance, and a 30% bone-in piece takes approximately x2 times piece of boneless meat.

The idea that the ratio of bone to meat should be 1:1 is wrong. Dr. Billinghurst's ideas have not held up to scientific scrutiny, which is why most raw feeders have moved away from BARF. It is simply too much bone.

Bill


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## marklaker

I really appreciate the discussion here. That said, I'm still some what confused and I have a number of questions concerning what constitutes a RMB, what Bones in the 80/10/10 model represent if they're not RMBs, the percentage of meat to bone, and whether modifications are necessary for a 16 week pup with puppy teeth. Unfortunately, I have to skedaddle for work, but I'll be back on tonight to better formulate my questions. Hopefully, you'll all stop by and lend me your thoughts. Thanks much!

Mark


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## naturalfeddogs

You are confused because you are still worrying too much about percentages. Are they important? Yes, but as long as you feed variety of bone and meat as well, you will meet those percentages, according to what is best for your dog. Some may need more bone, some less. Start with chicken drumsticks or quarters, whichever is better suited to your puppies size. If it seems like too much bone, you can just add some boneless meat to it. 

An rmb is just a edible bone, covered in meat, like a drumbstick or quarter.


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## OtherGuy

marklaker said:


> I really appreciate the discussion here. That said, I'm still some what confused and I have a number of questions concerning what constitutes a RMB, what Bones in the 80/10/10 model represent if they're not RMBs, the percentage of meat to bone, and whether modifications are necessary for a 16 week pup with puppy teeth. Unfortunately, I have to skedaddle for work, but I'll be back on tonight to better formulate my questions. Hopefully, you'll all stop by and lend me your thoughts. Thanks much!
> 
> Mark


Mark, for PMR purposes feed soft edible bone at 10% of the diet. With a young pup you may find items like chicken necks or chicken feet are good. You can also take a bone-in chicken breast flip it over and cut it into multiple sections with a heavy knife, sectioning out the rib bones as equally as possible. That's about 20% bone.

Keep a close eye on pups eating bones to makes sure they chew well (and don't gulp) as you don't want them to choke. Hand feeding can help them get the right idea (in addition to building an awesome bond) and items like drumsticks are easy for an owner to hold on to while the pup chews. It can also be beneficial to serve bone in parts frozen or semi-frozen to encourage chewing.

Most pups take right to it.

Bill


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## OldGnarlHead

I also want to point out that only feeding one type of bone is not balanced. Your dog is capable of digesting all sorts of bone. Just stay away from weight-bearing bones from ungulates and the like (sheep, pigs, cows, goats) and as a general rule, all beef bones are off the table, as they are usually too dense. Trust your dog's digestive system. My dog, a beagle-shar pei mix once ate an entire pork rib whole and she didn't even skip a beat. If they have trouble chewing the bone thoroughly, freeze it. 

I know these threads often devolve into shouting matches but the way I see it is that wolves don't take down an elk then whip out a calculator and see how much bone they should eat at one sitting. I personally stick as absolutely close to 80/10/10 (I know that seems a little contrary to my previous statement) because my dog is very sensitive to any deviations in her bone, and doing it by feel, as Jenny does, doesn't work for us. See what works best for you and your dog. They are all individuals and one way isn't going to work for all of them.


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## OtherGuy

OldGnarlHead said:


> I also want to point out that only feeding one type of bone is not balanced. Your dog is capable of digesting all sorts of bone. Just stay away from weight-bearing bones from ungulates and the like (sheep, pigs, cows, goats) and as a general rule, all beef bones are off the table, as they are usually too dense. Trust your dog's digestive system. My dog, a beagle-shar pei mix once ate an entire pork rib whole and she didn't even skip a beat. If they have trouble chewing the bone thoroughly, freeze it.
> 
> I know these threads often devolve into shouting matches but the way I see it is that wolves don't take down an elk then whip out a calculator and see how much bone they should eat at one sitting. I personally stick as absolutely close to 80/10/10 (I know that seems a little contrary to my previous statement) because my dog is very sensitive to any deviations in her bone, and doing it by feel, as Jenny does, doesn't work for us. See what works best for you and your dog. They are all individuals and one way isn't going to work for all of them.


Can you cite evidence for your assertion that feeding one type of bone causes a nutritional imbalance?

Harder and larger bones present much greater risks of cracked or broken teeth and present a much greater risks of obstructions. 

Our dogs are not taking down elk. They eat what we feed them. If we feed them in a fashion that induces a serious mineral imbalance, then we are not doing a good job as conscientious dog owners. An 80/10/10 diet supplies the correct mineral balance and is easiest on a dog's GI tract.

Bill


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## naturalfeddogs

OtherGuy said:


> Can you cite evidence for your assertion that feeding one type of bone causes a nutritional imbalance?
> 
> Harder and larger bones present much greater risks of cracked or broken teeth and present a much greater risks of obstructions.
> 
> Our dogs are not taking down elk. They eat what we feed them. If we feed them in a fashion that induces a serious mineral imbalance, then we are not doing a good job as conscientious dog owners. An 80/10/10 diet supplies the correct mineral balance and is easiest on a dog's GI tract.
> 
> Bill


There are more than one type of edible bone....

And you have a pm...


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## OtherGuy

naturalfeddogs said:


> There are more than one type of edible bone....
> 
> And you have a pm...


Yes, of course there are multiple types of edible bone. But harder and larger edible bones present greater risks to tooth damage and obstructions that soft edible bones do.

Those that have endured the heartache of a dog needing major abdominal surgery to remove a blockage, or have had a dog break a tooth on a hard bone, are people that heave learned lessons the hard way.

Bill


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## naturalfeddogs

OtherGuy said:


> Yes, of course there are multiple types of edible bone. But harder and larger edible bones present greater risks to tooth damage and obstructions that soft edible bones do.
> 
> Those that have endured the heartache of a dog needing major abdominal surgery to remove a blockage, or have had a dog break a tooth on a hard bone, are people that heave learned lessons the hard way.
> 
> Bill


And Kells said in her post those SHOULDN'T be given...


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## OtherGuy

naturalfeddogs said:


> And Kells said in her post those SHOULDN'T be given...


Plenty of dogs have required abdominal surgery (or if lucky, waiting out obstructions) for swallowing bones like pork ribs. Bones like these are not risk free.

Bill


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## naturalfeddogs

OtherGuy said:


> Plenty of dogs have required abdominal surgery (or if lucky, waiting out obstructions) for swallowing bones like pork ribs. Bones like these are not risk free.
> 
> Bill


No bone is 100% risk free.... but some are riskier than others....That's the point, since I guess I had to tell you. I thought you would have been able to figure out what was meant instead of making it yet, another big deal.


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## OtherGuy

naturalfeddogs said:


> No bone is 100% risk free.... but some are riskier than others....That's the point, since I guess I had to tell you. I thought you would have been able to figure out what was meant instead of making it yet, another big deal.


Who is making it a big deal? 

Soft-edible bones (as in chicken, duck, and other small poultry) present virtually no risks for breaking teeth, causing obstructions, and minimal choking hazards (although even here is is best to monitor a young pup).

Rib bones from large animals present more risks.

Bill


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## naturalfeddogs

OtherGuy said:


> Who is making it a big deal?
> 
> Soft-edible bones (as in chicken, duck, and other small poultry) present virtually no risks for breaking teeth, causing obstructions, and minimal choking hazards (although even here is is best to monitor a young pup).
> 
> Rib bones from large animals present more risks.
> 
> Bill


You. You like to make everything seem like a much bigger deal than they really are. It's why new people get so frustrated, and will end up leaving soon most of the time. You are always right, and everyone else always seems to be wrong.


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## OtherGuy

naturalfeddogs said:


> You. You like to make everything seem like a much bigger deal than they really are. It's why new people get so frustrated, and will end up leaving soon most of the time. You are always right, and everyone else always seems to be wrong.


No, you continually accuse me of making things a big deal or saying balancing bone percentages will "stress people out." But that's not true.

Balancing minerals is critically important. This is very well-established in the veterinary literature. There are numerous medical conditions hat result from Calcium/Phosphorus imbalances. Feeding approximately 10% bone keeps the mineral balances in the correct zone. And it isn't difficult to do.

It is also easier on dog's GI tracts.

Why does saying this seem "controversial?" 

Bill


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## naturalfeddogs

OtherGuy said:


> No, you continually accuse me of making things a big deal or saying balancing bone percentages will "stress people out." But that's not true.
> 
> Balancing minerals is critically important. This is very well-established in the veterinary literature. There are numerous medical conditions hat result from Calcium/Phosphorus imbalances. Feeding approximately 10% bone keeps the mineral balances in the correct zone. And it isn't difficult to do.
> 
> It is also easier on dog's GI tracts.
> 
> Why does saying this seem "controversial?"
> 
> Bill


Well the op was still confused as of last post, and hasn't been back....


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## OldGnarlHead

I would like to point out how close you got me to quitting raw feeding a while back. Like my husband had to talk me down from jumping back to kibble a LOT back then, because of how stressful you were making it when Cricket was having problems. 

Of course, use discretion. Don't feed a chihuahua a pork tail or a turkey neck. If you use common sense that you need protein variety you need also need bone variety to get optimal nutrition. 

To the OP I am super sorry this is devolving this way.


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## OtherGuy

OldGnarlHead said:


> I would like to point out how close you got me to quitting raw feeding a while back. Like my husband had to talk me down from jumping back to kibble a LOT back then, because of how stressful you were making it when Cricket was having problems.
> 
> Of course, use discretion. Don't feed a chihuahua a pork tail or a turkey neck. If you use common sense that you need protein variety you need also need bone variety to get optimal nutrition.
> 
> To the OP I am super sorry this is devolving this way.


I would like to point out that you have been extremely rude to me since you arrived, and that when you finally followed the advice I gave you on day one, Cricket finally improved after months and months of problems. Yet you never said you were sorry for the way you treated me, or offered thanks for giving you the correct advice in the first place.

Now you blame me for almost quitting when I showed you the right path???

And I'm the bad guy here? 

Bill


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## marklaker

First off, I'd like to apologize for not getting back sooner. A major project at work kept me occupied for the better part of the past few days. I feel you all have something to add and it's my hope we can continue this discussion without rancor for the benefit of myself and anyone else lurking who might likewise be searching for guidance on this issue. Jenny is right, in that I am stressing over bone percentage, both because maintaining dietary balance is greatly emphasized in all the literature I've read thus far, and because of my pups history. Dude, my now 16 week Goldendoodle, came to me by way of a breeder, who I now suspect of dubious practices. Two days after welcoming him to our home I had to rush him to the vet, where he was diagnosed with Parvo. Two weeks thereafter he was diagnosed with hookworm. He's had a rough go of early life so yes, I'm ultra cautious at this point.

Despite limited time, I've done a bit more reading in the past few days, to include Lew Olson's book _Raw and Natural Nutrition for Dogs_. I think I have a somewhat better grasp, but I want to be certain I understand the bone%. Under the 80-10-10 model, do the first two numbers represent the ratio of muscle meat to edible bones? In other words, if I include a chicken wing, which is approximately 3 ounces and 45% bone, I'd need to feed 9.15 ounces of boneless muscle meat in addition to 1.35 ounces of organ meat? 

Chicken wing = 1.65 oz meat, 1.35 oz of bone

so

9.15 oz from boneless muscle meat + 1.65 oz of meat (chicken wing) + 1.35 oz edible bone (chicken wing) + 1.35 oz of organ meat = 10.8-1.35-1.35 = 80-10-10

I realize the balance is spread over a period of time and not each meal, but do I have the concept right?

Mark


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## naturalfeddogs

80/10/10 is simply mostly meat (80%), some bone(10%), and some organ(10%). As long as you feed that way, in variety of those three ingredients you will be fine. Yes balance is important, and you will have that with variety. That's how nutritional balance is achieved. 

I have six aussies, and of them, I feed bone differently to some because some need more bone, like every other day. Then some who can only handle it a couple times a week at most, because it constipates them no matter how big or small the amount. This is why I say 10% is a guide. A place to start. So, you will learn your dog and how much actually works. 10% may be too much, too little or just right. Trial and error. Start with a chicken quarter, if it seems to cause constipation, you can go with a drumbstick the next feeding, and add some more meat, like boneless breast.

Go with what works for your dog. Don't get stressed because literature says what your dog should be. Your dog is your dog, and doesn't necessarily fit into a "percentage", if that makes sense. As long as you are feeding both meat and bone regularly, you will be fine.


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## MyDogIsMyBestFriend

Hi Mark! I understand your concerns, It is scary and confusing when there is really no definitive guidelines. I wish I had the resources that we have now when I first started. As a disclaimer, I am not a vet and the knowledge that I acquired are from my experiences, guidance and kindness of other raw feeders to educate and from my holistic vet.

How much does your dog weigh? What is his expected adult weight? I will provide general guidelines below. 

The PMR ratio represents 80% muscle meat (no bones, do not include the meat of the chicken wing), 10% raw meaty bone (RMB) and 10% liver and other organs. If I am understanding your question correctly, you do not need to add the percentage of the meat of the chicken wing. 

So following you calculations, assuming your feeding your puppy 2%-3% of expected/ideal adult weight the calculations would be: 9.15 oz from boneless muscle meat + 1.35 oz chicken wing bone + 1.35 oz of organ meat = 11. I am thinking that you might need to add 1.65 oz of muscle meat because you are excluding the chicken wing meat from the calculation.

Sorry, I am not meaning to confuse you but generally if you are following the 80/10/10 rule, you will want to feed your dog about 25%-60% RMB to get to the 10%-25% bone content. So your chicken wing which is 45% bone content is definitely a good choice. Experts actually would like to err on slightly higher calcium vs phosphorus anyways.

*Hearts, gizzards, lungs, trachea, tendons and green tripe are classified as muscle meat
*Liver, brain, kidney, spleen, pancreas and other secreting organs are to be fed as organs
*Recreational/Weight Bearing bones can break your dog's teeth and TMJ, be aware of your dog's chewing style. If he's an aggressive chewer I would use extreme caution in providing this type of bone.

Supervise your dog when giving appropriately sized RMB/edible bones. Check how your dog would react to the diet and check his poop, you will know if you're feeding too much bone if he's straining when he goes bathroom and if the poop is chalky white. Make sure he's got access to water at all times.

In the end, use your own good judgement, not all dogs are the same just like naturalfeddogs said. Let me know if there's anything else I can help you with.


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## marklaker

That is very, very helpful, MyDogIsMyBestFriend! With regard to erring on the high side of calcium, wouldn't that be especially true with a growing puppy?

Insofar as the poop viewing is concerned, I had to laugh. Between his illnesses and the raw feeding regimen, I inspect every poop, often with flashlight in hand for the pre-dawn and post-dusk hours. Told my wife, that's what I'm reduced to in my old age....analyzing poop!:biggrin1:


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## OldGnarlHead

Don't worry. My husband and I (Arne and I got married btw  ) have a grading scale that we use for poop and we talk about it constantly. It really does become the basis of how you proceed in feeding. It becomes normal. At night I've taken a flashlight to her poop as well. Also, we've made an excel spreadsheet for calculating bone percentage quickly. I can email it to you if you'd like!


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## naturalfeddogs

I throw in bone to my puppy in two of her meals daily. Like this morning for her breakfast, she had a chicken drumstick, chicken foot, boneless lamb, beef and a little beef liver. Lunch was boneless, with pork belly, turkey, chicken heart and gizzard. Then supper will be a bone in meal, of either chicken quarter or pork Riblet with omega 3 fish oil. Her poops have been staying perfect, but if they start to get a little on the soft side I'll add just a little more bone at the next meal. It's all just balance.


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## MyDogIsMyBestFriend

marklaker said:


> That is very, very helpful, MyDogIsMyBestFriend! With regard to erring on the high side of calcium, wouldn't that be especially true with a growing puppy?
> 
> Insofar as the poop viewing is concerned, I had to laugh. Between his illnesses and the raw feeding regimen, I inspect every poop, often with flashlight in hand for the pre-dawn and post-dusk hours. Told my wife, that's what I'm reduced to in my old age....analyzing poop!:biggrin1:



Yes, hypocalcemia can cause skeletal malformation and issues but so is very high calcium. Moderation is the key!


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## MyDogIsMyBestFriend

OldGnarlHead said:


> Don't worry. My husband and I (Arne and I got married btw  ) have a grading scale that we use for poop and we talk about it constantly. It really does become the basis of how you proceed in feeding. It becomes normal. At night I've taken a flashlight to her poop as well. Also, we've made an excel spreadsheet for calculating bone percentage quickly. I can email it to you if you'd like!


Hi, I know your message is for Mark but I am interested on your knowledge in poop grading! LOL. I also would like a copy of spreadsheet of bone percentage calculation as well if it's ok. Thank you in advance!


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## OldGnarlHead

No problem! The forum doesn't support Excel formatting though so if you want to PM me your email I can give it to you with an explanation of how it works. Also, our poop scale goes from -10 to 10 where -10 is either literally just water or poop that is the consistency of water (we've had both happen), 0 is a perfect poop, and 10 is a completely white and crumbly poop. We sometimes even have poops where we say it went from, say, a 4 to a -1, meaning it looked sort of hard at the beginning and then a little soft at the end. We occasionally even bring the other one outside when she poops so that we can see what the other meant by a 3 poop or whatever, just to make sure we're on the same page. Poop is very important when raw feeding XD


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## MyDogIsMyBestFriend

OldGnarlHead said:


> No problem! The forum doesn't support Excel formatting though so if you want to PM me your email I can give it to you with an explanation of how it works. Also, our poop scale goes from -10 to 10 where -10 is either literally just water or poop that is the consistency of water (we've had both happen), 0 is a perfect poop, and 10 is a completely white and crumbly poop. We sometimes even have poops where we say it went from, say, a 4 to a -1, meaning it looked sort of hard at the beginning and then a little soft at the end. We occasionally even bring the other one outside when she poops so that we can see what the other meant by a 3 poop or whatever, just to make sure we're on the same page. Poop is very important when raw feeding XD


I will do that. Thanks!


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## OtherGuy

marklaker said:


> First off, I'd like to apologize for not getting back sooner. A major project at work kept me occupied for the better part of the past few days. I feel you all have something to add and it's my hope we can continue this discussion without rancor for the benefit of myself and anyone else lurking who might likewise be searching for guidance on this issue. Jenny is right, in that I am stressing over bone percentage, both because maintaining dietary balance is greatly emphasized in all the literature I've read thus far, and because of my pups history. Dude, my now 16 week Goldendoodle, came to me by way of a breeder, who I now suspect of dubious practices. Two days after welcoming him to our home I had to rush him to the vet, where he was diagnosed with Parvo. Two weeks thereafter he was diagnosed with hookworm. He's had a rough go of early life so yes, I'm ultra cautious at this point.
> 
> Despite limited time, I've done a bit more reading in the past few days, to include Lew Olson's book _Raw and Natural Nutrition for Dogs_. I think I have a somewhat better grasp, but I want to be certain I understand the bone%. Under the 80-10-10 model, do the first two numbers represent the ratio of muscle meat to edible bones? In other words, if I include a chicken wing, which is approximately 3 ounces and 45% bone, I'd need to feed 9.15 ounces of boneless muscle meat in addition to 1.35 ounces of organ meat?
> 
> Chicken wing = 1.65 oz meat, 1.35 oz of bone
> 
> so
> 
> 9.15 oz from boneless muscle meat + 1.65 oz of meat (chicken wing) + 1.35 oz edible bone (chicken wing) + 1.35 oz of organ meat = 10.8-1.35-1.35 = 80-10-10
> 
> I realize the balance is spread over a period of time and not each meal, but do I have the concept right?
> 
> Mark


Mark, you are on the right track. I too would like to continue the thread without rancor, but what you have read in veterinary sources about the importance of keeping the correct mineral balance in canine diets is the least controversial (and most universally embraced) concept in animal nutrition. It is worth doing a little math. In time these calculations become second nature, and take neither math or measures (as one gets used to balancing bone percentages by eye.

With the past history (Parvo, etc) you don't want to add a problem of a nutritional imbalance. One thing I think every one participating in this thread will tell you, if that a balanced raw diet is optimal for a dog's health.

One small caution on chicken wings (not a big deal) is they have a little hooked bone on the end that can be a choking hazard with young pups. If you are the cautious type they are easy to snip.

Bill


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## marklaker

Thanks to everyone for their contributions. I'm very grateful! Because no good deed goes unpunished, your punishment for indulging me will be an endless series of more questions. :redface::redface:


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## naturalfeddogs

Bring them! That's what we are here for!


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## OldGnarlHead

I like answering questions! I would also suggest going back through the old threads, they're super informative and helpful. At one point I read all the threads all the way through like, page 75 or something. Great way to kill time AND get informed!


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## marklaker

I'd like your thoughts on the safest edible bones insofar as protecting teeth and proper digestion are concerned for a 17 week, 35 pound Goldendoodle. My staples are chicken necks, wings, thighs, and feet. I assume drumsticks and backs are fine as well, and I've also tried turkey necks, though they're thick enough to give me pause so I usually break them up into smaller pieces. What about pork tails? I gave him some pork back ribs once and he didn't consume the bone, just chipped away at it, and used it for recreation. That worried me. Yesterday, I picked-up two lamb necks, but they look dense, with some sharp edges. I'm looking for some variety outside of chicken. 

Thanks in advance!


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## naturalfeddogs

marklaker said:


> I'd like your thoughts on the safest edible bones insofar as protecting teeth and proper digestion are concerned for a 17 week, 35 pound Goldendoodle. My staples are chicken necks, wings, thighs, and feet. I assume drumsticks and backs are fine as well, and I've also tried turkey necks, though they're thick enough to give me pause so I usually break them up into smaller pieces. What about pork tails? I gave him some pork back ribs once and he didn't consume the bone, just chipped away at it, and used it for recreation. That worried me. Yesterday, I picked-up two lamb necks, but they look dense, with some sharp edges. I'm looking for some variety outside of chicken.
> 
> Thanks in advance!


chicken drumsticks are fine, as are whole quarters. Chicken backs are really bony, and I don't remember the last time I fed them. I wouldn't worry about feeding them if I were you.

Turkey necks are really easy to chew. One your size should be fine with them. 

A 35# dog should be able to get through pork ribs. They have been fed regularly at our house for years just fine. You may be able to find pork riblets as well, which may be good too, but you don't want any of those that may have artificial cut bones due to strange shapes. Full ribs would be better. Mine all crunch right through them.

Pork tails are really dense bone. I don't feed those for worry of breaking teeth. Pork ribs are going to be a better bet.

Lamb necks should be fine, but if they have been cut up, they could have sharp edges and I wouldn't feed those. I personally have never fed any, but everyone I know who has have had no problems but they haven't been cut bones. Lamb ribs are also a good choice if you can find them.


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## marklaker

My pup seems to tolerate chicken and turkey necks best, wings as well, but I'm going to steer clear of chicken feet for the foreseeable future. He gobbles and doesn't chew through them, producing soupy stools, followed by bouts of difficulty defecating.


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## naturalfeddogs

If he's swallowing chicken feet whole, he's probably going to do the same with chicken necks. If he does, just stop feeding them too. Turkey necks are good, and duck necks if you can find them. 

Chicken feet are a great great source of glucosamine, and so are duck feet as well. If you can find them, they are larger and he would chew those better and get the joint benefits.


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## OtherGuy

marklaker said:


> My pup seems to tolerate chicken and turkey necks best, wings as well, but I'm going to steer clear of chicken feet for the foreseeable future. He gobbles and doesn't chew through them, producing soupy stools, followed by bouts of difficulty defecating.


Feeding bone-in pieces frozen or semi-frozen can increase the chewing. Gobbled pieces (as you are seeing) can lead directly to GI distress.

Bill


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## marklaker

Resurrecting this thread to inquire about chicken necks and wings. On another raw feeding site they advise against both for all but small dogs, citing choking hazards. Thoughts? I feed both regularly to my 38lb, projected to be 70lb pup.


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## naturalfeddogs

They are better for puppies and small dogs, but if your dog chews them then they are fine.


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## OtherGuy

Yep. Like Jenny said, if your dog chews bones well its fine. The risk comes if you've got a gulper.

Despite having a "chewer" I moved on from chicken necks and wings in puppyhood as I could get larger and meatier bone-in pieces that had fewer risks at a lower cost.

Bill


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## marklaker

What are your bone-in pieces of choice?


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## naturalfeddogs

Mine are chicken, pork ribs, lamb ribs and turkey necks. For snacks I have have given chicken necks, chicken feet and frog legs.


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## OldGnarlHead

For wings, we find they are fine, all we do is make sure to pop the joint in the elbow area to make it straighter, and our 40lb dog chews them perfectly. We also freeze her bone before giving it to her so she has to chew it well. It might help with the chicken feet feeding. Chicken feet is one of the easiest things to feed our dog, but duck or turkey feet might be a better option, if you can get them.

We mostly feed pork tails, smaller pork ribs, chicken feet, drumsticks, thighs, wings, turkey necks, duck necks, duck feet, and occasionally ground rabbit or goat bones, just for variety. Most of it we either get from RFM or the supermarket


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## marklaker

All chicken parts? Some folks say to stay away from chicken backs.


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## naturalfeddogs

Chicken backs are real bony, but you can feed them if you add a good bit of boneless with it. I have fed backs before after accidentally over feeding something real rich like heart or liver. It has kept butts from exploding. But on average, I personally don't feed backs.


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## OldGnarlHead

We feed chicken backs no problem. It's just usually too much bone in one meal for our dog, and we like to keep every day consistent.


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