# stepping back from raw



## 9898 (Jun 14, 2012)

My last dog died of lymphoma. I did some home cooking for her but she mostly ate Evo but after her death I began to wonder if commercial food might have contributed to her cancer. My new dog - a rescue - has some allergy issues and is prone to loose stools or diarrhea. So . . . I've thought a lot about what to feed her and must have gone through half a dozen books on the subject. I've tried to switch her to raw a couple of times. I've fed her raw meaty bones (mostly chicken backs and necks) and I've ground whole chickens. She prefers the RMB and refused to eat the veggie mix that Becker included in her ground meat and bones recipes. Without much vegetable fiber and almost no cereal fiber her stools became almost hard and she acted as if she was constipated. Since I rescued her she has been a lethargic walker. We've done all the tests and found nothing to correct. I pulled her off the raw diet the first time because she was lying down and resting several times during our walks - something she had not done before. She's been overweight since i rescued her and I've heard that dogs on a raw diet will lose some weight so I decided to try again and phase it in more slowly and see if we would be more successful a second time. The results have been the same. She loves the RMBs but at times she acts as if constipated and the lethargic walks have returned - even during our cool early morning walks. Since she won't eat the veggie mix I've given her a bit of Acana and/or a small amount of fresh cooked green beans and brown rice. Contrary to expectation, her stools have smelled to high heaven on this mostly raw diet. My conclusion is that since the literature on canine nutrition is just as contradictory and confusing as that on human nutrition, the only way for me to know what's best for my dog is to try various feeding programs and see how she responds. The increase in lethargy on the raw diet suggests to me that it is not the right diet for her. Marion Nestle in her book on feeding pets suggests that most of the fad diets are just that and that the mid range prepared foods are perfectly OK for our pets. She cuts through most of the hype. There are just too many variables for there to be one, "ideologically correct", way to feed a dog or cat and, even if commercial pet food is not "biologically appropriate" it is probably not possible for a single dog in one lifetime to "return to the wild" so to speak. What I've decided to do is this: use the commercially prepared foods of a company I trust and feed my dog a mix of dry and canned and, for her teeth, to feed her several raw chicken necks a week. Some will probably say that I didn't give the raw diet enough time to work but when I see what seem to be negative side effects of feeding her a raw diet I don't think ethics would allow me to continue in the hopes that she might get used to it. that's my take on things.


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## _unoriginal (Apr 8, 2012)

First, Welcome to DFC. This place is an EXCELLENT source of information and advice.

In my personal opinion, I don't support BARF-feeding where there are veggies and grains added to the diet. I feet 100% animal only. When I started, I followed Dedicated to proper carnivore nutrition - Prey Model Raw Feeding for Dogs & Cats religiously. If you feel like taking on raw again, I would suggest to lean more toward PMR than BARF, start by feeding only chicken and see how the dog adjusts.

How long have you had this dog? Did you do the 2 week shutdown? It's common for newly rescued dogs to need time to adjust to their new home and the shutdown helps them to view what happens in the home without feeling the pressure and stress of being a part of it.


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## bett (Mar 15, 2012)

Honestly, i completely agree with everything you said. Raw doesnt work for every dog. I've tried partial raw ( one meal raw, one meal kibble) and now chicken necks are used as a treat. One guy barfed his raw up most times.the other turned up his nose, except for the necks.and my newest wants no part of it.so.....you gotta do what you what you gotta do.


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## _unoriginal (Apr 8, 2012)

bett said:


> Honestly, i completely agree with everything you said. Raw doesnt work for every dog. I've tried partial raw ( one meal raw, one meal kibble) and now chicken necks are used as a treat. One guy barfed his raw up most times.the other turned up his nose, except for the necks.and my newest wants no part of it.so.....you gotta do what you what you gotta do.


The problem with that though is that it's fairly common for dogs to not be able to handle 50/50 raw due to digestion rates. I fully believe that if you're going to try it, then TRY it. Take the plunge or you're only putting in half effort and if the feeding doesn't work, you won't know if it's due to the raw itself or due to the mixing of two different feeding regimens that digest at vastly different rates.


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## Sprocket (Oct 4, 2011)

Gracie's dad said:


> My last dog died of lymphoma. I did some home cooking for her but she mostly ate Evo but after her death I began to wonder if commercial food might have contributed to her cancer. My new dog - a rescue - has some allergy issues and is prone to loose stools or diarrhea. So . . . I've thought a lot about what to feed her and must have gone through half a dozen books on the subject. I've tried to switch her to raw a couple of times. I've fed her raw meaty bones (mostly chicken backs and necks) and I've ground whole chickens. She prefers the RMB and refused to eat the veggie mix that Becker included in her ground meat and bones recipes. Without much vegetable fiber and almost no cereal fiber her stools became almost hard and she acted as if she was constipated. Since I rescued her she has been a lethargic walker. We've done all the tests and found nothing to correct. I pulled her off the raw diet the first time because she was lying down and resting several times during our walks - something she had not done before. She's been overweight since i rescued her and I've heard that dogs on a raw diet will lose some weight so I decided to try again and phase it in more slowly and see if we would be more successful a second time. The results have been the same. She loves the RMBs but at times she acts as if constipated and the lethargic walks have returned - even during our cool early morning walks. Since she won't eat the veggie mix I've given her a bit of Acana and/or a small amount of fresh cooked green beans and brown rice. Contrary to expectation, her stools have smelled to high heaven on this mostly raw diet. My conclusion is that since the literature on canine nutrition is just as contradictory and confusing as that on human nutrition, the only way for me to know what's best for my dog is to try various feeding programs and see how she responds. The increase in lethargy on the raw diet suggests to me that it is not the right diet for her. Marion Nestle in her book on feeding pets suggests that most of the fad diets are just that and that the mid range prepared foods are perfectly OK for our pets. She cuts through most of the hype. There are just too many variables for there to be one, "ideologically correct", way to feed a dog or cat and, even if commercial pet food is not "biologically appropriate" it is probably not possible for a single dog in one lifetime to "return to the wild" so to speak. What I've decided to do is this: use the commercially prepared foods of a company I trust and feed my dog a mix of dry and canned and, for her teeth, to feed her several raw chicken necks a week. Some will probably say that I didn't give the raw diet enough time to work but when I see what seem to be negative side effects of feeding her a raw diet I don't think ethics would allow me to continue in the hopes that she might get used to it. that's my take on things.


Hi :wave: welcome to DFC!

It sounds like you are feeding her too much bone. I doubt her stools are hard due to lack of plant or cereal fiber...
Her stools are likely smelling from you feeding her acana, green beans and brown rice, not from the raw food. 


What method of start up are you using? I would suggest following this guideline How to Get Started | Prey Model Raw


What I would do (if you want to continue), is start completely over. Nothing other than PMR. No veggies, no kibble, nothing but the diet. I know many dogs (including my own) that have been successfully transitioned to PMR and have had continued success. My dogs are PMRaw fed and have bundles of energy. Even my oldest dog, acts like he is half his age.

I also wanted to ask how long you have been feeding? You stated that you started and stopped twice? How long was each time?


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## SaharaNight Boxers (Jun 28, 2011)

Have you introduces organs yet? It seems like that would take care of the lethargy and constipation.


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## twoisplenty (Nov 12, 2008)

Organs are one of the last things you want to introduce to the diet. I agree that your version (or whoevers version you were following) did not work for your dog. I used to homecook, then I switched to BARF and then I finally found PMR. The difference in my dogs from BARF to PMR have been amazing. Its about finding what Raw works best for you and your dog. How about giving PMR a go?


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## SaharaNight Boxers (Jun 28, 2011)

Oh ok I read it wrong. I didn't realize he was currently feeding veggies.

Veggies would definitely be the gas producers. I'd get off of those immediately.


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## Noodlesmadison (Sep 18, 2011)

Sometimes grinding up everything you give them, raw meat-wise, is not the best road to take. Grinding introduces bacteria. Maybe that contributed to it. I've never heard of a dog not doing well on raw.. maybe it's me? Evo isn't good food. I work in a store that sells pet food and we got rid of Evo because it was, essentially, crap. (they sold out and they lied about their ingredients and where they came from.)


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

hi and welcome. i wish you had found us before raw bit you in ways that can happen when you're given advice that just doesn't work out.

raw is a fine way to feed and i believe we can help you if you choose.

let us know and i swear we will walk you through it......you'll be glad you did.


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## 9898 (Jun 14, 2012)

Thanks for all your comments. I did a length reply and guess I took too long because it didn't take. I don't do this sort of thing very much - guess I'm still unfamiliar with how it works. I will look up the prey model diet and she how it differs from what I've been using and will try and figure out how the chat works and then get back with you all. Thanks. David


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## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

I firmly believe that raw will work for almost every dog. And those exceptions I believe can do modified raw food due to crystals, stones, pancreatitis, etc.. 

But it might not work for every owner.


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## skadoosh (Jun 11, 2012)

xellil said:


> I firmly believe that raw will work for almost every dog. And those exceptions I believe can do modified raw food due to crystals, stones, pancreatitis, etc..
> 
> But it might not work for every owner.


Exactly. 
I dont think raw is for everyone and I don't think every dog does well on it.


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## Sprocket (Oct 4, 2011)

skadoosh said:


> Exactly.
> I dont think raw is for everyone and I don't think every dog does well on it.


Also, many dogs that are thought to not do well on raw, are just not fed correctly or given a chance to adjust.

Raw is DEFINITELY not for everyone.


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## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

skadoosh said:


> Exactly.
> I dont think raw is for everyone and I don't think every dog does well on it.


I think if a dog doesn't do well on raw, it's probably operator error. Which is why I say - not for every owner.

With very, very very rare exceptions. Nothing is ever 100%


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## skadoosh (Jun 11, 2012)

xellil said:


> I think if a dog doesn't do well on raw, it's probably operator error. Which is why I say - not for every owner.
> 
> With very, very very rare exceptions. Nothing is ever 100%


I agree. Nothing is ever 100%. This person may have made the error or the dog just can't tolerate it. I would try PMR before writing the situation off.


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

skadoosh said:


> I agree. Nothing is ever 100%. This person may have made the error or the dog just can't tolerate it. I would try PMR before writing the situation off.


PMR is raw.


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## twoisplenty (Nov 12, 2008)

Gracie's dad said:


> Thanks for all your comments. I did a length reply and guess I took too long because it didn't take. I don't do this sort of thing very much - guess I'm still unfamiliar with how it works. I will look up the prey model diet and she how it differs from what I've been using and will try and figure out how the chat works and then get back with you all. Thanks. David


Here is a link to PMR feeding. It does not include any grain or vegetable matter. It is soley meat, bones, organs  How to Get Started | Prey Model Raw


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## Dude and Bucks Mamma (May 14, 2011)

Here's the thing, though: Feeding raw is not a fad diet. Kibble is the newest fad. It hasn't been around for very long. It started around 100 years ago and became really popular around, what? 60 years ago?

Dogs were raw fed LONG before kibble was invented. It is a man made food that was created for human convenience and to utilize leftovers that humans wouldn't/couldn't eat. 

Don't just write raw off as a fad. A dog is an animal. It is meant to eat real foods. 

Anyhow, the guide that twoisplenty and someone else gave you is a GREAT guide and I think most of the raw feeders here used it. I found it about halfway through my transition but was given great advice here from folks so the beginning of my dogs' transition was pretty close to what the guide says. It is a great guide and my cousin is currently using it to transition her dog.


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## _unoriginal (Apr 8, 2012)

Dude and Bucks Mamma said:


> It is a great guide and my cousin is currently using it to transition her dog.


My brother is also using it to transition his dog.. Well that and asking A LOT of questions, ALL THE TIME. :lol:


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