# My Puppies HATE H-A-T-E Orijin!



## murbanski (Sep 25, 2012)

OMG! Okay so I haven't been very active on the board in a while. Since I've been gone I have....acquired two puppies. Yes, TWO. Haha! A boxer named Lucy, and a mini Aussie named Ruby. There will be pictures coming soon!
SO! After much fretting and asking and researching I finally decided what I would feed my precious pups. ORIJEN. I feel like it has the best ingredient list, the HIGHEST quality ingredients (not sourced from China or another place with questionable quality control), high in Omega 3's and 6's for a shiny coat that I love, Chondroitin and Glucosamine, the list goes on. It is the perfect kibble (at least I think so as far as kibble goes). Well. My puppies HATE it. Absolutely despise it. I tried everything! Canned food which gave them horrid cannon butt, various other toppers and mix-ins, tough love (my pups went 4 days without touching it and I left full bowls down at all times) everything. And they hate it. I am totally crushed that they don't/won't eat it or like it. 
My next choice is Acana, but since it is also made by the same company I am leery to cough up $20+ on a 5lb. bag that my pups won't touch. Maybe I will try Fromm next. Any other suggestions for a super high-quality high protein grain free puppy food? That is cheaper than ZiwiPeak? haha!


Also would it matter if I changed to a different formula? Like Orijen Large Breed Puppy or 6 Fish/Regional Red/Adult/etc?


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## lauren43 (Feb 6, 2011)

The honest kitchen? I've heard good things about it, not sure how I feel about it.

Though I'm not a huge fan of Orijen either. I think using too many different protein sources can cause more issues..I also find it to be a very rich food.

As always I'm going to suggest Horizon products because my little dog Tess has done so well with them, so far they seem to be a good company and no ingredients from china..


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## murbanski (Sep 25, 2012)

Hmm, I'm checking it out now and I'm liking what I'm seeing! Thank you for the suggestion!


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## whiteleo (Sep 7, 2008)

Acana is pretty tasty, haven't met a foster yet who didn't like it, can't compare the two since I've never fed Orijen


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## monster'sdad (Jul 29, 2012)

Use a food that is used by canine professionals. Forget Champion products. Garbage in a bag.

Labels are used to mislead consumers, labels don't make good dog food, nutrients make good dog food not ingredients, testing makes good dog food not marketing.

People that know dogs make good dog food.

Company's like Champion that know marketing just make you poor.

Try Dr. Tim's, Annamaet or Red Paw.


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## Shamrockmommy (Sep 10, 2009)

Try Fromm. I use the grain free formulas with my girls, and, despite the price (around the same as Orijen), they all 3 do the best on Fromm than anything else I have tried. They have gorgeous coats, my yeasty bichon's ears and feet stay nice and clear, and it smells really fresh. Currently using the Salmon Tunalini (salmon/tuna), but we also love the Beef Frittata (beef) and the Surf N Turf one (duck/salmon). I occassionally look for and try other grain free foods at a lower price (who isn't budget conscience these days) and their coats are less full and soft, Darby will get an ear infection and start chewing her feet, Echo will get digestive issues. 

Fromm has never had a recall, uses their own production mill and has great customer service. I think for the US, this is the best food out there.


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## InkedMarie (Sep 9, 2011)

While it's not grain free, one of my dogs is doing fantastic on Dr Tim's Pursuit. Very nicely priced, too.


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## monster'sdad (Jul 29, 2012)

InkedMarie said:


> While it's not grain free, one of my dogs is doing fantastic on Dr Tim's Pursuit. Very nicely priced, too.



My favorite, and I have seen and tried everything over the years.


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## Sheltielover25 (Jan 18, 2011)

murbanski said:


> OMG! Okay so I haven't been very active on the board in a while. Since I've been gone I have....acquired two puppies. Yes, TWO. Haha! A boxer named Lucy, and a mini Aussie named Ruby. There will be pictures coming soon!
> SO! After much fretting and asking and researching I finally decided what I would feed my precious pups. ORIJEN. I feel like it has the best ingredient list, the HIGHEST quality ingredients (not sourced from China or another place with questionable quality control), high in Omega 3's and 6's for a shiny coat that I love, Chondroitin and Glucosamine, the list goes on. It is the perfect kibble (at least I think so as far as kibble goes). Well. My puppies HATE it. Absolutely despise it. I tried everything! Canned food which gave them horrid cannon butt, various other toppers and mix-ins, tough love (my pups went 4 days without touching it and I left full bowls down at all times) everything. And they hate it. I am totally crushed that they don't/won't eat it or like it.
> My next choice is Acana, but since it is also made by the same company I am leery to cough up $20+ on a 5lb. bag that my pups won't touch. Maybe I will try Fromm next. Any other suggestions for a super high-quality high protein grain free puppy food? That is cheaper than ZiwiPeak? haha!
> 
> ...


I would try different formulas or like someone mentioned Acana. I've fed both and noticed the ones I've fed seem to prefer Acana. I agree it's one of the best kibbles out there as far as ingredients. Hard to find a kibble that has free-range animals in it  

Too bad ZP is so expensive, eh? I just found out our co-op has it and it's what I feed my cat so I'm stoked. It's about half the price the store has it for!!


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## naturalfeddogs (Jan 6, 2011)

monster'sdad said:


> Use a food that is used by canine professionals. Forget Champion products. Garbage in a bag.
> 
> Labels are used to mislead consumers, labels don't make good dog food, nutrients make good dog food not ingredients, testing makes good dog food not marketing.
> 
> ...


Just because It's used by professionals doesn't mean it's the right one for every dog. 

Not everyone owns the same dog.


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## monster'sdad (Jul 29, 2012)

naturalfeddogs said:


> Just because It's used by professionals doesn't mean it's the right one for every dog.
> 
> Not everyone owns the same dog.


Yes it is. That should be the standard. If a food can't nourish a heavily trained animal then it is not adequate or sufficiently tested for the average animal. If a company does not have the experience in serious nutrition then it shouldn't make foods for the average animal. I don't want to spend a ton of money on a label designed to appeal to the average consumer, its just marketing. 

Even if its overkill, it is better that the product was designed and tested at the extremes.

Champion makes over 25 formulas with a gazzilion ingredients in an old, small two line plant. Explain that to me??


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## whiteleo (Sep 7, 2008)

monster'sdad said:


> Yes it is. That should be the standard. If a food can't nourish a heavily trained animal then it is not adequate or sufficiently tested for the average animal. If a company does not have the experience in serious nutrition then it shouldn't make foods for the average animal. I don't want to spend a ton of money on a label designed to appeal to the average consumer, its just marketing.
> 
> Even if its overkill, it is better that the product was designed and tested at the extremes.
> 
> Champion makes over 25 formulas with a gazzilion ingredients in an old, small two line plant. Explain that to me??


Have you toured the plant? I know people who have...Stop bashing a kibble that many people have had great success at feeding. Just because the blah blah you spew doesn't make it right.


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## naturalfeddogs (Jan 6, 2011)

Here' an example. I feed raw obviously, but I am not going to feed something just because a professional does. 

Here's the example. Take my horses for instance. They are big, 2000lb, slow trail riding Belgian horses. Why would I feed them the same thing as a professional who rides reiners or eventers? They are professionals, with high performance horses who require way more than what the average family horses like mine require. The last thing I would want is 2000 lbs of explosive energy. 

So what I am saying, is unless you are in the same line of work as the professional, it's likely It's not going to be the right food. It may be right for you, and that's fine. But it may not be the one for everyone. Lots of times, you are just paying for the professional's name to be associated with that product as well as an endorsement.


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## Sheltielover25 (Jan 18, 2011)

whiteleo said:


> Have you toured the plant? I know people who have...Stop bashing a kibble that many people have had great success at feeding. Just because the blah blah you spew doesn't make it right.


Considering our pets are over here eating free-range, grass-fed raw meat, I'd say our picky selves know a little something or two and if WE feel comfortable feeding it to fosters (and me my cat) then that's saying something LOL

I do trust Champion foods and for me to say that about a processed food is hardcore.


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## Unosmom (May 3, 2009)

most retailers have trial bags which are like $3.99


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## DaViking (Sep 27, 2011)

naturalfeddogs said:


> Here' an example. I feed raw obviously, but I am not going to feed something just because a professional does.
> 
> Here's the example. Take my horses for instance. They are big, 2000lb, slow trail riding Belgian horses. Why would I feed them the same thing as a professional who rides reiners or eventers? They are professionals, with high performance horses who require way more than what the average family horses like mine require. The last thing I would want is 2000 lbs of explosive energy.
> 
> So what I am saying, is unless you are in the same line of work as the professional, it's likely It's not going to be the right food. It may be right for you, and that's fine. But it may not be the one for everyone. Lots of times, you are just paying for the professional's name to be associated with that product as well as an endorsement.


You are missing the point. Obviously you are not to feed something with a gazillion calories. You feed their formulas intended for whatever situations your dog is in. The experience, knowledge and results trickles down. You'r from Talladega right so you'll get this analogy. The performance and the drive-ability of all the top tier car brands/models we drive daily is a direct result of knowledge and product innovation through racing such as Nascar, Formula 1, Indycar and WRC. No manufacturer worth their salt today can afford to stand on the outside. Honda's doesn't have the same sized breaks as their Indycar counterparts but a scaled down version based on very much the same technology. It's the same for a number of dog food manufacturers. Others are the Lada's and Daewoo's of the pet food world. You can put lipstick on a pig, it's still a pig.


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## PDXdogmom (Jun 30, 2010)

Right now both my dogs are eating Acana Pacifica and doing very well with it. You might want to try a trial size bag. I like that it doesn't use pea protein or rely totally on canola oil.

I would be very interested in trying Dr. Tim's food if they all didn't contain chicken. One of my dogs has a chicken intolerance. 

I may try Annamaet Aqualuk which looks stellar on paper. Unfortunately I would have to order it and the price is so high that it makes Acana look reasonable. .


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## SaharaNight Boxers (Jun 28, 2011)

Have you tried adding warm water? It helpa make it more smelly. Personally I would try to stay with Orijen because they're a solid company with great formulas IMO. If they were fed a low quality food before sometimes they don't realize the other kibble is food.


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## monster'sdad (Jul 29, 2012)

DaViking said:


> You are missing the point. Obviously you are not to feed something with a gazillion calories. You feed their formulas intended for whatever situations your dog is in. The experience, knowledge and results trickles down. You'r from Talladega right so you'll get this analogy. The performance and the drive-ability of all the top tier car brands/models we drive daily is a direct result of knowledge and product innovation through racing such as Nascar, Formula 1, Indycar and WRC. No manufacturer worth their salt today can afford to stand on the outside. Honda's doesn't have the same sized breaks as their Indycar counterparts but a scaled down version based on very much the same technology. It's the same for a number of dog food manufacturers. Others are the Lada's and Daewoo's of the pet food world. You can put lipstick on a pig, it's still a pig.


They will never get the point. It is amazing how Diamond gets trashed (and rightly so) but the same shoddy quality record out of Champion is rationalized. The false and misleading claims, etc, fall on deaf ears. Thats the power of marketing. Just imagine if the story about using fish garbage was about Pro Plan. Just imagine that.

Oh, by the way I understand Champion does not make the claims about using "regional Canadian ingredients" any longer. Wonder why.


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## whiteleo (Sep 7, 2008)

monster'sdad said:


> They will never get the point. It is amazing how Diamond gets trashed (and rightly so) but the same shoddy quality record out of Champion is rationalized. The false and misleading claims, etc, fall on deaf ears. Thats the power of marketing. Just imagine if the story about using fish garbage was about Pro Plan. Just imagine that.
> 
> Oh, by the way I understand Champion does not make the claims about using "regional Canadian ingredients" any longer. Wonder why.


You are so full of yourself! Self promoting WHAT you see as good food versus what we know. Have you been to the Champion plant?


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## Savage Destiny (Mar 16, 2011)

monster'sdad said:


> Yes it is. That should be the standard. If a food can't nourish a heavily trained animal then it is not adequate or sufficiently tested for the average animal. If a company does not have the experience in serious nutrition then it shouldn't make foods for the average animal. I don't want to spend a ton of money on a label designed to appeal to the average consumer, its just marketing.
> 
> Even if its overkill, it is better that the product was designed and tested at the extremes.
> 
> Champion makes over 25 formulas with a gazzilion ingredients in an old, small two line plant. Explain that to me??


Good thing I know plenty of trained, trialed and field proven hunting dogs around here that eat Orijen and Acana. Hard working dogs that have to go go go all day for days at a time.  

"Serious nutrition" for carnivores does not involve loads of grain and carbohydrates, unlike most of the foods you tout. But nice try.


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## lauren43 (Feb 6, 2011)

Monsters dad why can't you just simply make your own suggestions without bashing and putting down others opinions and options...we all know how you feel about most of "go to" foods ppl here suggest.

Every time you post debating others opinions OP's thread get muddled up with a back and forth of what's better. What's better is for the OP to decide, we are just here to give suggestions...


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## murbanski (Sep 25, 2012)

WHEW! Lots to read! Haha!
Well, I am to the point where I don't care about marketing. I have to admit Champion products come in VERY sexy packaging, but I am so beyond that. I am really just looking at ingredients. The ingredients make me happy. I like the high amounts of meat. I like that I understand what every ingredient is. I like that they don't use preservatives on their fish. I like that they aren't getting ingredients from CHINA or another similar country. Honestly, if the ingredients were fabulous and I knew they didn't source any products from questionable places I would buy it if it was in a plain brown paper bag. 
That is actually why I am hesitant to try any other food because when comparing ingredients they are all the same. So why am I going to buy a 5lb. bag of food that costs $20-30 when I can get the EXACT same recipe/product for the EXACT same price but get two to three times the product? I know where the ingredients come from plays a part in that but in my eyes I can't sacrifice either of my demands. It MUST have 1) Good ingredients 2) That aren't sourced from a third-world country 3) Few/no recalls. 

I have done everything to get my babies to eat it. :/ Canned food, warm water, etc. My boxer I rescued at 4 weeks old so she was weaned on to it so that is the only thing she has eaten besides milk/milk replacer. My Aussie was weaned on to Diamond puppy food by her breeder, so that might be the case with her. 

So my requirements for a kibble are:
1) Premium ingredients
2) Ingredients that are sourced from quality sources (Not China, etc.)
3) No, or few recalls

Right now price isn't a factor. Er, well it kinda is. I would love to feed them Ziwi but jeez laweez. So something that is like no higher than $25/5 lb. bag. 



I checked out the ingredients for Dr. Tim's and its just irritating that the second ingredient is potato in the grain free variety...And there seems to be some weird ingredients.

Ingredients:
Chicken meal, dried white potatoes, dried field peas, dried beet pulp (sugar removed), chicken fat (preserved with mixed tocopherols and citric acid), ocean herring meal, tapioca, dried whole eggs, whole ground flax seed, menhaden fish oil, chicken liver, salmon meal, porcine plasma, carrots, celery, beets, parsley, lettuce, watercress, spinach, potassium chloride, salt, lecithin, calcium carbonate, L-Lysine, canola oil, dried Enterococcus faecium fermentation product, dried Saccharomyces cerevisiae fermentation product, dried Lactobacillus acidophilus fermentation product, dl-methionine, organic dried kelp, psyllium seed husks, yucca schidigera extract, choline chloride, dried chicory root, algae fat product (source of DHA), ascorbic acid, glucosamine, L-ascorbyl-2-polyphosphate (stabilized ascorbic acid), taurine, vitamin E supplement, zinc sulfate, zinc proteinate, beta carotene, ferrous sulfate, ascorbic acid (source of vitamin C), manganese sulfate, inositol, niacin supplement, iron proteinate, manganese proteinate, zinc oxide, biotin, thiamine mononitrate (source of vitamin B1), copper sulfate, pyridoxine hydrochloride (source of vitamin B6), copper proteinate, vitamin A supplement, riboflavin supplement (source of vitamin B2), calcium pantothenate, potassium iodide (source of iodine), manganous oxide, selenium, calcium iodate, vitamin B12 supplement, vitamin D3 supplement, folic acid, L-carnitine, rosemary extract.Animal feeding tests using AAFCO procedures substantiate that Kinesis provides complete and balanced nutrition for all life stages.Metabolizable energy (calculated): 3750 kcal/kg
Kinesis is 415 kcal ME/cup (110g)

Porcine plasma? Ew. Hahah! 

But I think I am going to get some samples of Acana, Annamaet, Honest Kitchen, and see how that goes. Ultimately it is what my dogs do best on, with the best ingredients that aren't sourced from China. Any more suggestions are welcome! 

Considering just going raw too. I gave my puppies some turkey wings last week and they LOVED them.....


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## SaharaNight Boxers (Jun 28, 2011)

If you're thinking of trying dehydrated like THK I would go with Grandma Lucy's instead personally. A lot less green stuff in it. But yeah raw would probably be cheaper than that so that could be the way to go if you're willing.


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## murbanski (Sep 25, 2012)

You know, I think I am going to try just switching to raw. That is the only thing that my puppies DEVOURED every time I gave it to them....


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## Shamrockmommy (Sep 10, 2009)

For dry I've had really nice results with Fromm Fourstar line (grain frees only). I have used THK and liked it quite a bit except for one, they pooped 3-4 times a day, large quantities, and my chihuahua took up eating her own stool. Switched off it and the pooping went to 1-2 times a day and no poop eating. Poop eating was a deal breaker for me  I have yet to try Grandma Lucy's, probably will one day soon.

Fromm has had NO recalls, has great customer service. the fourstar line is also all life stages. And a small bite if you need that. My 4lb chihuahua has no problems eating it, nor does my 50lb Portuguese Water Dog. 
Good luck


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## starturtle (Jul 12, 2012)

I fed Orijen for years with great results. For monetary purposes I switched to Acana and they wouldn't eat it. I went through a period where I refused to feed anything but the "best". Now they are on Fromm Gold and doing fine. I have tried Orijen, Acana, Back to Basics, Instinct, Wellness Core and Earthborn. I have thought about switching to Dr. Tim,s but it's a harder to get than Fromm around here. 

The point is you have to find the balance that works for you and all your dogs. I prefer to find a food that will work great for all my dogs because I hate feeding different foods to different dogs. Although I will if I have to.

One other thing Champion Foods may be hard to get for a while after the fire at their plant. Last week when I was getting my food the owner of the store told me he has been ordering $10,000 worth of food from them a month and only about $2,000 is getting delivered.


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## DaViking (Sep 27, 2011)

starturtle said:


> I fed Orijen for years with great results. For monetary purposes I switched to Acana and they wouldn't eat it. I went through a period where I refused to feed anything but the "best". Now they are on Fromm Gold and doing fine. I have tried Orijen, Acana, Back to Basics, Instinct, Wellness Core and Earthborn. I have thought about switching to Dr. Tim,s but it's a harder to get than Fromm around here.
> 
> The point is you have to find the balance that works for you and all your dogs. I prefer to find a food that will work great for all my dogs because I hate feeding different foods to different dogs. Although I will if I have to.
> 
> One other thing Champion Foods may be hard to get for a while after the fire at their plant. Last week when I was getting my food the owner of the store told me he has been ordering $10,000 worth of food from them a month and only about $2,000 is getting delivered.


Their new production line just opened. Big hoopla on facebook.


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## Sheltielover25 (Jan 18, 2011)

Shamrockmommy said:


> For dry I've had really nice results with Fromm Fourstar line (grain frees only). I have used THK and liked it quite a bit except for one, they pooped 3-4 times a day, large quantities, and my chihuahua took up eating her own stool. Switched off it and the pooping went to 1-2 times a day and no poop eating. Poop eating was a deal breaker for me  I have yet to try Grandma Lucy's, probably will one day soon.
> 
> Fromm has had NO recalls, has great customer service. the fourstar line is also all life stages. And a small bite if you need that. My 4lb chihuahua has no problems eating it, nor does my 50lb Portuguese Water Dog.
> Good luck


I've been reading up on Fromm and I am impressed with their history and such.  I like the fact they're one of the few who produce their food at a USDA-inspected plant. What other kibbles follow this?.. anyone know?


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## 1605 (May 27, 2009)

My GSPs have done very well on EVO Chicken/Turkey: grainless, high protein. However, if you dogs are NOT truly active, this may not be the right food for them as it is also high in fat. 

They have other varieties, but since my older GSP cannot tolerate beef, this one seems to be a good fit. Both him & the 22 month old puppy (whom we had on this food pretty much from the beginning) thrive on it.

The food is made in America and according to my inquiries, they do not source any ingredients from China.

FWIW,


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## susiep (Feb 12, 2011)

*Orijen*

My cocker does perfectly on the Senior formula. I have a bag of the Fish which I mixed in with the Senior. She leaves the fish kibble. So I would try other 'flavors'---or mix Acana with Orijen. I refuse to buy dog food from anyother company--what with all the wild recalls. Our dog had a huge reaction a couple of years ago--so I'm really careful.

susie

Also would it matter if I changed to a different formula? Like Orijen Large Breed Puppy or 6 Fish/Regional Red/Adult/etc?[/QUOTE]


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## monster'sdad (Jul 29, 2012)

Sheltielover25 said:


> I've been reading up on Fromm and I am impressed with their history and such. I like the fact they're one of the few who produce their food at a USDA-inspected plant. What other kibbles follow this?.. anyone know?


Fromm is not EU Certified. That is the hardest to obtain and keep. Fromm is allowed to use ingredients from plants that an EU Certified plant is not allowed to source from and it is allowed to use ingredients that are not "fit for human consumption" as defined by the EU. Technically, Fromm is allowed to buy ingredients from places that are not USDA inspected. 

All pet food companies are regulated by the FDA and USDA by the way. The USDA writes rules and the FDA inspects pet food plants. The USDA would inspect faciltiies that process ingredients like a slaughter facility. Once raw materials leave where they are made the USDA is out of the picture.

Fromm is very good at marketing. It gave up its EU Cert. as did Eagle/Wellness/Holistic Select because of the strict rules. The EU Cert/Aphis program is much tougher.

When you say "one of the few" you are incorrect.


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## Shamrockmommy (Sep 10, 2009)

Submariner, I am about to try my girls on innova prime, which is less protein and fat than evo. I've always been nervous to try it since p&g bought them but I feed it to my cat and he looks amazing and his litter box never even smells. I'll start them on it in a week or so and see how they do. Any issues at all with evo? Do you rotate among the proteins?


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## PDXdogmom (Jun 30, 2010)

monster'sdad said:


> Fromm is not EU Certified. That is the hardest to obtain and keep. Fromm is allowed to use ingredients from plants that an EU Certified plant is not allowed to source from and it is allowed to use ingredients that are not "fit for human consumption" as defined by the EU. Technically, Fromm is allowed to buy ingredients from places that are not USDA inspected.
> 
> All pet food companies are regulated by the FDA and USDA by the way. The USDA writes rules and the FDA inspects pet food plants. The USDA would inspect faciltiies that process ingredients like a slaughter facility. Once raw materials leave where they are made the USDA is out of the picture.
> 
> ...


Would all the brands of dog food produced at Ohio Pet Foods be considered to have EU Cert.?


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## Sheltielover25 (Jan 18, 2011)

monster'sdad said:


> Fromm is not EU Certified. That is the hardest to obtain and keep. Fromm is allowed to use ingredients from plants that an EU Certified plant is not allowed to source from and it is allowed to use ingredients that are not "fit for human consumption" as defined by the EU. Technically, Fromm is allowed to buy ingredients from places that are not USDA inspected.
> 
> All pet food companies are regulated by the FDA and USDA by the way. The USDA writes rules and the FDA inspects pet food plants. The USDA would inspect faciltiies that process ingredients like a slaughter facility. Once raw materials leave where they are made the USDA is out of the picture.
> 
> ...


First off, let's point out where I said anything about them being EU certified. Please? Waiting....

Pretty sure 99% of the ones you recommend don't have the EU certification either. I am impressed with the fact Fromm has yet to do a recall and I don't see many other foods being produced in a factory that's regularly inspected and also the claim they receive their foods FRESH daily to be processed is appealing (don't know how true it is) With that, none of it is ever appealing enough for me to feed it to my gang  Champion Foods posses proteins that ate the correct diet and had access to sunshine. Fromm doesn't mention anything about grass-fed so it wouldn't be something I'd feed my animals should I ever need a prepackaged bag of food. For the record, Champion exports their product to 40+ countries, and every bag they make meets the import criteria for every single country - including the EU.


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## monster'sdad (Jul 29, 2012)

PDXdogmom said:


> Would all the brands of dog food produced at Ohio Pet Foods be considered to have EU Cert.?


Yes...the plant runs on one standard even if foods are not exported to the EU. While it is not perfect, it is the best quality assurance available.

Keep in mind the PLANT is EU Certified, and every ingredient must come from a supplier in the USDA-Aphis program.


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## monster'sdad (Jul 29, 2012)

Sheltielover25 said:


> First off, let's point out where I said anything about them being EU certified. Please? Waiting....
> 
> Pretty sure 99% of the ones you recommend don't have the EU certification either. I am impressed with the fact Fromm has yet to do a recall and I don't see many other foods being produced in a factory that's regularly inspected and also the claim they receive their foods FRESH daily to be processed is appealing (don't know how true it is) With that, none of it is ever appealing enough for me to feed it to my gang  Champion Foods posses proteins that ate the correct diet and had access to sunshine. Fromm doesn't mention anything about grass-fed so it wouldn't be something I'd feed my animals should I ever need a prepackaged bag of food. For the record, Champion exports their product to 40+ countries, and every bag they make meets the import criteria for every single country - including the EU.


Blah Blah your statement was totally wrong. The FDA inspects ALL feed producing facilities. Fromm makes a safe product. I never said Fromm didn't. I am simply pointing out Fromm is not held to the highest standards, like where Dr. Tim's is made. Fromm's suppliers need not be inspected by the USDA-Aphis like the plant where Dr. Tim's is made.

I mention Pro Pac often, and that food is made at an EU Cert. plant as well, as is Annamaet.

Fromm has been free of recalls, you are right, but don't say things like Fromm is one of the few to be inspected because you are dead wrong. All feed producing plants are regulated under Federal Law and inspected by the FDA.

Yes Champion does export but it also has a bad quality record, as well as some pretty embarrasing disclosures about ingredient sourcing and quality.


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## 1605 (May 27, 2009)

Shamrockmommy said:


> Submariner, I am about to try my girls on innova prime, which is less protein and fat than evo. I've always been nervous to try it since p&g bought them but I feed it to my cat and he looks amazing and his litter box never even smells. I'll start them on it in a week or so and see how they do. Any issues at all with evo? Do you rotate among the proteins?


Since neither one of our dogs does well with changes in their primary food source, we don't rotate the kibble. We do, however, supplement it a few times a week with various other protein sources: one day it could be tinned tuna or salmon, leftover pork or chicken.(No beef because the older dog has severe GI issues with it.) If they have put in a hard day's work training, hunting, or field trialing, we give them extra protein as well as their usual amount of kibble. Otherwise, we reduce the kibble by an ounce or two when we add another food source.

Of course they also get the odd carrot, apple, or clementine (yes, my older GSP LOVES citrus!) as well as Mother Hubbard Mini Biscuits which do dual duty as both treats and training aids. And something special for obedience work: usually chicken breast or turkey hotdogs.

I have been using EVO since before they were bought by P&G, even saving the labels from the bags. There has been NO difference in the ingredients or analysis. My dogs have always done very well on it. 

The only issue I can bring up is to watch how much you feed them. I don't know the stats on the Innova Prime, but EVO has a lot of calories and fat. So if you overfeed, your dog will experience very soft "output", as well as weight gain. 


Bonne chance,


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## July11 (Jul 7, 2011)

OK, this thing about Fromm is confusing to me. My experience with Fromm dog foods has been weird. On paper everything looks super. When my latest pup was very young, I decided to transition him to Fromm puppy. I purchased a small fresh bag of the puppy food and he seemed to do well on it, so next time I purchased a large bag of the puppy. I thought I had something rotten in my pantry. It took me a few days to realize it was the puppy food that STUNK. It smelled like sour puke. I asked the lady at the store where I bought it and she said she had never had that problem before. The dog was doing fine, but I couldn't stand it anymore and couldn't bring myself to feed something that smelled so bad to my pup. So I returned it and went to a different food.

After that I went to raw and didn't think about kibble anymore.

Then my son moved back in after graduating college. He brought his dog with him and he was on kibble. Again, feeling that Fromm was a good company and figuring the stinky puppy food was a fluke, I transitioned him to Fromm Gold Adult food. Guess what..........It stunk too!! This time it was a different stink. This time the smell was like crapp, I thought the cat had not used her litter box and had made a mess in the pantry. Figured out again that it was the dog food. 

I have had it with their foods. If they are made from high quality ingredients as they profess, there is no reason that I would get two different foods that smelled so bad. 

That is just my experience and you can take it for what it is worth, but I have since gone to Dr. Tim's because of the fat content and all I can say is that it smells good enough for humans to want to try it. (and No, I didn't try it myself  )


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## meggels (May 30, 2010)

monster'sdad said:


> Blah Blah your statement was totally wrong. The FDA inspects ALL feed producing facilities. Fromm makes a safe product. I never said Fromm didn't. I am simply pointing out Fromm is not held to the highest standards, like where Dr. Tim's is made. Fromm's suppliers need not be inspected by the USDA-Aphis like the plant where Dr. Tim's is made.
> 
> I mention Pro Pac often, and that food is made at an EU Cert. plant as well, as is Annamaet.
> 
> ...


So Earthborn Holistic is as well? Since it's made where Pro Pac is?


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## DaViking (Sep 27, 2011)

meggels said:


> So Earthborn Holistic is as well? Since it's made where Pro Pac is?


Yes, Earthborn is sold in Europe.


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## monster'sdad (Jul 29, 2012)

meggels said:


> So Earthborn Holistic is as well? Since it's made where Pro Pac is?


yes same factory


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## monster'sdad (Jul 29, 2012)

July11 said:


> OK, this thing about Fromm is confusing to me. My experience with Fromm dog foods has been weird. On paper everything looks super. When my latest pup was very young, I decided to transition him to Fromm puppy. I purchased a small fresh bag of the puppy food and he seemed to do well on it, so next time I purchased a large bag of the puppy. I thought I had something rotten in my pantry. It took me a few days to realize it was the puppy food that STUNK. It smelled like sour puke. I asked the lady at the store where I bought it and she said she had never had that problem before. The dog was doing fine, but I couldn't stand it anymore and couldn't bring myself to feed something that smelled so bad to my pup. So I returned it and went to a different food.
> 
> After that I went to raw and didn't think about kibble anymore.
> 
> ...


Ohio Pet Foods where Dr. Tim's is made is by no means a technological powerhouse but every bag is exactly the same. 

Same color, same smell, same size and same shape.

Cool testimonial from Dr. Tim's FB page:

*"Dear Dr. Tim—–a short testimonial

Chi was always a problem eater and very high energy. After a bout with anaplasmosis, he just kept getting thinner and thinner..Tried every thing but he never seemed to hold on to the pounds. A Spinone owner suggested that I try Momentum. Chi has been the food for 6 months, he still only eats 2-3 cups of food per day and yet the change is unbelievable. He no longer looks ribby, his coat has changed, and his stamina in the field has improved. I am so glad I changed food (and so is Chi)…………………..Mary Bloom*"


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