# Muzzle or not



## Evangeline (Aug 23, 2011)

I have a two year old dog Charlie that is a rescue and was abused. He looks like a pitbull mix but is only 48Ib. I have taken him to the dog park since he was 5 months old but have stopped in the last 4 months because he has gotten so unpredictable with other dogs on leash and off. He gets in a frenzy off leash when overly excited and can go from playing to latching on running in a blink of an eye. On leash he can walk by one dog and be fine the next he will lunge and try to attack. The other issue is children. He has never been trusted around kids. He will run at them and try to snap in the face. He is nervous around them but will snap. I dont no his background but the dog aggression is definetlly geting worse which makes no sense considering he has been well socialized. He has always been fearless with dog right from a pup though. Charlie has been abused for sure but I dont no his past. I got him at 5 months and it has taken along time for him to trust me others and get over many of his issues. My question is should I buy a nylon muzzle and have him wear it when I walk him or not. He can be so good but my other dog is also starting to lunge out at other dogs because of what he is doing. Will a muzzle make him shut down or be better. I walk them 4 hrs a day in total during the work days and my two days off they are constantlly outside. I can control both my dogs on leash when I see another dog but there is always that chance running into a dog off leash or a kid running up and trying to pet him. Two months ago a collie loose ran up and attacked Charlie. I told him leave it command and he didnt even fight back. He has gotten in scuffles and just shakes it off like nothing happened. Sorry for rambling. Anyway muzzle or no muzzle on walks. If I use one I will give lots of praise and treats. I am sure he will hate it at first.


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## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

HAve you been to a good trainer? It seems like Charlie has dog aggression, fear aggression, fear of children, etc. etc. and it's getting worse, not better. All that is kind of a huge accident waiting to happen.

A muzzle might stop him from biting someone, but it's not going to stop the way he feels and might even make it worse.


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## Maxy24 (Mar 5, 2011)

I agree, he needs help, try to find a behaviorist or trainer who uses positive methods, aggression is not something you want to use punishment on as it will suppress only the behavior, not change the cause of the behavior (fear usually). If you do get a muzzle, and it sounds like it might be a good idea, don't get a nylon one, get a basket muzzle. Dogs cannot pant or drink or take treats while wearing a nylon muzzle, it's certainly not what you want to use for walks or for training. I've heard this one is really good: Baskerville Ultra Muzzle - NEW Treat-friendly muzzle | Dog-Friendly Dog Training and Safety Tools


Keep the dog away from dogs and children, do everything you can to prevent a bite. Dog aggression is not uncommon in terriers (including pit bulls) regardless of socialization, it's genetic, but I can't say whether your dog is showing that sort of genetic dog aggression (not fear based, it's a desire to fight) or if it is the typical fear aggression, a trainer would be better able to do that through reading body language.


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## Savage Destiny (Mar 16, 2011)

You really need to work with a behaviorist, preferably one who is familiar with bull breeds. Dog aggression or reactivity is very, very common in Pit Bulls. Really, it's something that should be expected to one degree or another. Pit Bulls were created for dog fighting, so most of them aren't very dog tolerant. I'm not saying every one of them is a crazed, dog attacking beast, but most at the very least are reactive to one degree or another. Riddle, for example, is great with my boy Melon and a couple friends' dogs... but she does not like strange dogs approaching her. It has nothing to do with socializing. It's pretty common for a Pit Bull to be doggy friendly as a puppy and grow to be indifferent, reactive, or aggressive towards other dogs as they mature. Dog parks are NEVER acceptable places for a Pit Bull, even a dog friendly one. All it takes is one scuffle and your dog could be slapped with a dangerous dog title or even put to sleep. 

The type of muzzle that Maxy24 recommended is excellent. Regular nylon muzzles don't allow the dog to breathe properly, so they're not appropriate for long term wear, and definitely not for walking. You should get Charlie accustomed to the muzzle and associating it with treats so he's comfortable wearing it before you ever take him outside with it on. He needs to be comfortable with it so that going out and interacting with the world isn't even scarier than it already is. I'd also suggest walking him alone for now, since trying to control two dogs and work on his behavior at the same time is very difficult. Charlie deserves your full attention right now. 

Please find a behaviorist in your area, not just a regular trainer. You need more help than a typical trainer can give.


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## Evangeline (Aug 23, 2011)

I bought a metal basket muzzle the other day its got soft padding were it touches the nose. I was giving him treats through the muzzle. As soon as you put a leah on him outside and the muzzle he throws a tantrum screaming and flipping and rolling to try and take it off. The problem is he has to be walked on a prong which he does well on except for when he is flipping because he pulls so hard he hurts his neck. I spent 3 months trying to work with him on a halti and he fought so hard. He does not give up. Any dog will not like something forin around there muzzle but usually with lots of praise and pacience they come around. I just spent 56.00 on this muzzle and really dont want to keep it if its not going to work. Charlie has never lashed out at any person on leash but he looks like hese in prey drive when small kids go by. When most dog go by he has his hackles up and high pitch screaming excited it use to be but now if he gets to the dog he will sometimes grab them were it use to be just excitement. I can physically control both dogs without a problem and we run into dogs on a regular basis off leah and Charlie usually just has his hackles up and acts excited but when they are small dogs running around he has grabbed them. The trainers and so called avaviourists in my area I wouldnt recommend to anyone not even my customers at work. I am a groomer. I dont have a problem training like you said I need to see a good behaviourist unfortunatelly thats unlikely as I dont drive and am tight on money. I am always open to suggestions. I whack dog whisperer and agree with some methods I have used and have gotten some good tips on books but its not the same as a proffessional there with you. As soon as you put a muzzle on a dog in my small everyone in my samll town looks at you disgusted and crosses the street. Its sucks because Charlie has finally started to trust people and let them pet him. I feel like I am going to be going backwards in progress.


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## Sprocket (Oct 4, 2011)

Thank you for being responsible and preventing an accident. 

I REALLY want to stress the importance of regular exercise and working with a trainer. PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE find a trainer, and get a treadmill, flirt pole...run, bike, swim...something!


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## Maxy24 (Mar 5, 2011)

I would not copy anything the dog whisperer does, there is a reason the show says not to try what you see at home, it's dangerous for you and your dog. Muzzles take a while for dogs to get used to, I'm currently working through that with my dog, I've been feeding his dinner to him out of it for almost a week now, still have not attached it yet. Here is a good video to follow:
Teaching A Dog To Wear A Muzzle (Muzzle Training) - YouTube

Keep in mind the prong collar might be making things worse. I know a few people who have found a prong makes their dog more reactive and aggressive because whenever they see other dogs they pull towards them and feel pain, soon they start getting more and more upset at the site of other dogs. This may be why your dog has gone from excitement to aggression. Not for sure of course, but possible. Have you tried a no pull harness? If you simply can't control your dog without a prong I understand, but I would try some tools that are not painful first so you don't add to his aggression as pain often does. 

You need to find a way to keep the loose dogs away from you. Are they off leash with their owners or are they alone? You may need to carry a squirt bottle, air horn, citronella spray, or something (assuming these are non-aggressive dogs) to keep them away. If these are nasty dogs you'll need something stronger.

I'm not sure if "Look at That" will work for a dog who is not fear aggressive but wants to fight, but it can work wonders on fear aggressive dogs. All you have to do is click/mark and treat every time your dog glances at the other dog/person. Soon the dog will catch on to the game and start glancing from the dog/person to you for a treat. They start getting happy when they see other dogs/people because it means that it's time to play the look at that game. The people/dogs become a cue that the game is starting and become a prop in the game. The dog's emotions towards them change.

If that does not work you can always try teaching the dog to look at you instead. For my own dog Look at That works better, he becomes more reactive because he is worried about what the people are doing when he's not watching them. So letting him watch them keeps him from becoming paranoid and jumpy.

I'd also work on self control/impulse control games at home. Work on sits and downs and work up through hard distractions. Work on "It's Yer Choice" ("It's Yer Choice" - YouTube), crate games (DVD made by Susan Garrett), add obedience to your games of tug, and go crazy/freeze (Teaching Go Crazy, Freeze - YouTube). These all teach the dog to control himself when he wants something or is excited. Some teach control around food, others around toys and movement, and others teach the dog to continue listening even when excited. You'll start all of these at a low arousal level, you want the dog to be successful. As the dog catches on you up the speed and excitement so the dog has to exercise more control. This will eventually help on walks where you need the dog to continue listening and staying composed despite strong emotions. I've found many of the most serious problems people have with their dogs are a result of the dog lacking self control because no one bothers to teach it. I think it may be one of the main reasons positive training sometimes doesn't seem to make as well behaved a dog as punishment based methods do, not because punishment based methods are actually better, but because those who use it require their dogs to control themselves from the start, they don't manage/set up for success like positive trainers do. Positive folks clean up items that might be stolen, prevent the dog from performing bad behaviors, etc. but then the dogs often never learn self control, they are not given things/scenarios to control themselves around/in. This is needed for positive training to work, dogs must be successful to be rewarded and form good habits, so I'm not saying this should stop. I am a positive trainer, so I'm not advocating punishment based methods as better, I hate them! I'm saying that self control is a place where positive based methods have been lacking (for pet dogs, positive sport dog trainers already know this) and that there are lots of ways to remedy this, all of those games I mentioned above should be used from day one by positive trainers to teach self control, problem solved. Anyway, that's my public service announcement on that, we need to teach more self control!

I know it stinks that people will look at your dog like he's evil because of the muzzle, but it would be a whole lot worse if he bit a child or killed a dog. So stick to it!


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## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

I am a proponent of the prong collar used properly but it sounds like you need another solution.

I have muzzled Rebel - not because of aggression but because i couldn't keep him from licking big holes in his legs. At first, i bought a wire muzzle and i bet it is similar to what you have. I know it cost the same. It was AWFUL - heavy, hot, uncomfortable, it seemed meant to make my dog look aggressive.

I ended up with a lightweight plastic basket muzzle. Then I had to put duct tape on it to keep his tongue in. now, I'm not sure that would work for a dog that wants to bite but I know my dog was much, much more comfortable in it.


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## monkeys23 (Dec 8, 2010)

First off 48lbs is very normal for a male apbt or apbt mix. They are not large dogs, contrary to popular assumption. You know what they say about assumptions...
American Pit Bull Terrier Network Pit Bull Encyclopedia A to Z about the APBT

Secondly it is completely normal for him to go after other dogs. He's a pit bull mix what the heck did you expect!
They are NOT a breed that needs doggie friends, as are many breeds of terrier. Nevermind that they were created to love a good rumble against another dog. Its not something you cure, but its also not hard at all to live with if you are a responsible dog owner.

I know many disagree, but IMO dog parks are an awful idea for ANY breed of dog. But with apbt's, sbt's, ast's, bt's, etc. and mixes thereof you are basically doing about the dumbest thing possible with your bull and terrier breed dog. They were not bred to play nice with other dogs and it is not an enriching experience to take them there. They are however the best human companion you can ever have. They are AWESOME with people and prefer people friends to dog friends.
Nevermind the legal liability to you (and other owners when you spark BSL in the area with your irresponsibility...) and the risk of your dog being sentenced to death for simply being what he is. So stop taking your dog to the dog park!

That said you can use training techniques so that he can ignore dogs at a polite distance on leash. Techniques such as BAT (behavior adjustment training.... check out Grisha Stewart's book), Control Unleashed (they should seriously hand out Leslie McDevitt's book with every adoption or purchase...), and basic obedience training and relationship building. Your dog will never want or need doggie friends, but he can be a glorious canine good citizen if you step up and train him to function around other dogs that are not within grabbing distance. Additionally it is your responsibility as an owner to keep him safe by keeping other dogs away from him and keeping him leashed at all times in public!

Some of the most awesome dogs ever, its too bad people do such damage to them as a breed by being so irresponsible with them.

There's nothing at all wrong with your dog, he's a normal "pit bull" mix. Go running or biking with him one on one and join a sport like rally or weight pull with him. Hell of a lot more fun and interactive bonding with your dog than that lazy dog park crap! Not to mention an outlet for his drive and real honest to god socialization.

So yeah in closing... you don't need a muzzle, you just need to NEVER EVER EVER go back to the dog park and please be a responsible bull and terrier breed owner.


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## monkeys23 (Dec 8, 2010)

What PBRC has to say about socializing/training:
Pit Bull Rescue Central

Dog intros: Pit Bull Rescue Central

Counter conditioning (you'll need to do a lot of this!): Pit Bull Rescue Central

Breed info: Pit Bull Rescue Central

Specifically on pit bulls and other dogs: Pit Bull Rescue Central

In case you have a loose dog run up and your dog does what bulldogs do, you should know how to break your dog off another safely and quickly: Pit Bull Rescue Central

Pit bulls & dog parks: Pit Bulls & Dog Parks

Dog Parks | BAD RAP

Socializing:
Smart Socializing | BAD RAP

Dog/dog tolerance levels: Dog/Dog Tolerance | BAD RAP

Your role as peacekeeper: Keeping the Peace | BAD RAP

LAT Training: Look at That! A Counterintuitive Approach to Dealing with Reactive Dogs « Dog Training for Dog Lovers Blog
The above exercise in more detail, plus oodles more training/focus games: http://www.amazon.com/Control-Unleashed-Creating-Focused-Confident/dp/B000UCF53A

BAT: Amazon.com: Behavior Adjustment Training: BAT for Fear, Frustration, and Aggression in Dogs (9781617810503): Grisha Srewart: Books
**Keep in mind though that getting to fight can be a very high value functional reward for some very hot pit bulls and most very ready to rumble pit bulls will not give any warning until they grab another dog... not necesarily true for all, but quite a few. Know thy dog. This training is very useful in a counterconditioning program because the dog is always always always below threshold in the scenarios! She also has a good section on management tools, procedures, and equipment so that your dog isn't set up to fail at any point in time.

Great training book from a bully breed person: Amazon.com: When Pigs Fly!: Training Success with Impossible Dogs (9781929242443): Jane Killion: Books


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## Evangeline (Aug 23, 2011)

First off thankyou for all the great info. Both my dogs run on the treadmill and are constantlly walked and excersised. They go swimming daily and whenever Im home all we prety much do is walk. My walk is a fast pace not a normal walk. If one thing I no I am doing right is they are definetlly geting enough excercise. I havnt gone to the dog park in months and wont go back. I am returning the muzzle. I decided it will do more harm then good in my case. Both dogs are always leashed. I have herd that prong collars can agravate a dog and make aggression worse however I have tried haltis, easy walk harness and vilhart collar and the best control is the prong collar so thats what I use. Thankyou for your help.


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## Krista (Apr 27, 2011)

monkeys23 said:


> First off 48lbs is very normal for a male apbt or apbt mix. They are not large dogs, contrary to popular assumption. You know what they say about assumptions...
> American Pit Bull Terrier Network Pit Bull Encyclopedia A to Z about the APBT
> 
> Secondly it is completely normal for him to go after other dogs. He's a pit bull mix what the heck did you expect!
> ...





monkeys23 said:


> What PBRC has to say about socializing/training:
> Pit Bull Rescue Central
> 
> Dog intros: Pit Bull Rescue Central
> ...


Great posts, I agree 100%!!


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## bernadettelevis (Feb 2, 2011)

i think retty much everything has been said so i just wanted to give you the link to a great book: Dog Aggression Workbook: Amazon.de: James O'Heare: Englische Bücher


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