# Too much/too little calcium? concerns for puppy



## evildiva (Jul 3, 2011)

I've been raw feeding my standard poodle puppy since I got him at 10 weeks old from the breeder. Previously he was fed kibble. I switched him immediately on to chicken wings, after a week or two I introduced turkey and liver, week or so later fish, then pork, kidney, lamb and finally he is on beef (now 4 months old)

So anyway... the breed is prone to hip dysplasia, which I'm concerned about because apparently too much or too little calcium can trigger this. I've been giving him quite a lot of bone-in meats such as chicken necks/wings/carcasses, sometimes pork ribs - usually he gets this as a meal and perhaps once or twice a day he gets boneless turkey, lamb, beef or fish, etc. his poos have been firm and mostly chalky (high bone content I guess)

am I just being a worry wart or should I cut back the bone a little? how does one know when too much calcium is being fed?


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## pufff (Oct 23, 2011)

Hi there - sorry I don't have an answer to your question, but wanted to say that I too have the same worry! I am bringing home a 7.5 week old puppy at the weekend and don't want to injure him by getting this wrong! I have asked this same myself before and been told not to worry about it, but I do worry because there are definitely consequences for mistakes!


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## Liz (Sep 27, 2010)

We have raised two litters on raw. One collie litter - one sheltie. Collies are one year old and shelties are 6 months. They are doing great. I go by their stools as that tells me alot about how their body is processing nutrients. My collies need alot of bone to remain solid and and the shelties a little less. The pups we have kept out of both litters have never had kibble and are doing great, nice strong bones, straight bones, no issues at all. I think what people mean is watch your pup - if his stools are very white and turn to dust immediately they need more meat versus bone - on the other hand a pup that has loose stools or unformed stools will probably need more bone and utilize it well. Do try to relax. They are using so much of the nutrients you are giving them in raw. These two litters have been our first weaned to and I can't imagine going back to kibble. They have grown smoothly without the weird growth dpurts they had on kibble and maintained excellent muscle tone and weight. We used to get gangly collie pups at about 6 months and these guys never went through that they were well muscled and lean - look beautiful.


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## pufff (Oct 23, 2011)

I think the worry is not so much how the pups do for the first couple of years on raw, but how they do as they get older and more prone to arthritic problems.


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## Liz (Sep 27, 2010)

Well I haven't fed raw enough time to tell you that but I can tell you I started my 11 year old male on raw last year and he went from a slow, tired looking old man to and sprightly, bouncy boy. He is back to running with the young dogs, doesn't look achy when he first gets up in the morning and is very tolerant of the pups playing with him and bouncing off him- he was beginning to get cranky with the young ones. So I have seen a achy and sore oldster lose alot of painful aches and move like a much younger dog.


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## DaViking (Sep 27, 2011)

This is an interesting questions. I too like to learn more about this side (nutrients and ratios) of the PMR diet. Clearly it has to be something more than just a loose recreation of an ancestral diet. There has to be some guidelines somewhere? Granted surviving in the wild is tough business and takes its toll but the average expected lifespan of the grey wolf on a prey diet is 8 years. Serious breakdown (including bone structure) leading to its inability to feed/hunt and follow the pack, and ultimately its death, starts before that.

I just want to learn. For all I know it might swing the other way and our domesticated dogs might live to 20 on a true ancestral diet.


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## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

I bet it's not so much the calcium, but whether the calcium/phosphorus ratio is appropriate.


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## Scarlett_O' (May 19, 2011)

Well IMO/E, when the poo is "chalky" then you are feeding too much bone per the dog's needs....while Rhett, Dixi are right in the 10-ish %, and the kitties in the 7-ish % range, my Brody only needs between 5-8% bone, while Leo needs about 12-15% to stay nice and firm....I feed them per their needs and I dont worry about them!:wink:



Liz said:


> Well I haven't fed raw enough time to tell you that but I can tell you I started my 11 year old male on raw last year and he went from a slow, tired looking old man to and sprightly, bouncy boy. He is back to running with the young dogs, doesn't look achy when he first gets up in the morning and is very tolerant of the pups playing with him and bouncing off him- he was beginning to get cranky with the young ones. So I have seen a achy and sore oldster lose alot of painful aches and move like a much younger dog.


And Hunter looks NOTHING like his age!!!
He is AMAZING, looks about half his age...and oh I can go on and on and on!!!LOL


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## Bluey (Nov 16, 2011)

When I first got my puppy 4 yrs ago, I was making all of his food (cooked meat, rice, potato, etc.) I followed the directions (It was from Dog Food Secrets). But after awhile, I don't remember exactly how long, my poor puppy developed pica and was eating Dirt and Rocks/Pebbles! I screwed up royally and felt terrible! I ran out to the store and quickly changed him to a very high quality, grain free dry dog food. The Pica went away almost immediately. I started our 1 dog on raw a few weeks ago because he's sooo old and has horrible allergies and stinky lab ear infections. The high quality kibble did nothing to help him, so that's why I switched to raw.

Anyway, I worry about the minerals and all that too. Right now I'm going off of trust. I don't know if a dog would get pica if the calcium/phos ratio was kind of off. But if your doggy starts eating rocks and dirt, then you know for sure something's not right.


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## evildiva (Jul 3, 2011)

his poo has been crumbly and chalky the majority of the time (he's been on raw for approx 6 weeks now) but I have been giving mostly bone-in chicken during that time. Now that he can eat beef and all sorts of meats with no problems I'm giving him more boneless stuff. I hope I haven't damaged him by giving too much bone during that first period - that's my worry


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## DaViking (Sep 27, 2011)

Scarlett_O' said:


> when the poo is "chalky" then you are feeding too much bone per the dog's needs....while Rhett, Dixi are right in the 10-ish %, and the kitties in the 7-ish % range,


Ok, fair enough but how do you know that it is not too much long before you see chalky poo? Of 10% bones, how much pure calcium does that translate to? Also, 10% of what?


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## Scarlett_O' (May 19, 2011)

evildiva said:


> his poo has been crumbly and chalky the majority of the time (he's been on raw for approx 6 weeks now) but I have been giving mostly bone-in chicken during that time. Now that he can eat beef and all sorts of meats with no problems I'm giving him more boneless stuff. I hope I haven't damaged him by giving too much bone during that first period - that's my worry


I really doubt in this short of time that you have "ruined" anything!:smile:
Remember, we arent feeding all of those strange "add-ons" like you would with all the processed foods that the dogs that are known for having those health issues have grown up on!:wink:



DaViking said:


> Ok, fair enough but how do you know that it is not too much long before you see chalky poo? Of 10% bones, how much pure calcium does that translate to? Also, 10% of what?


Like someone else said, I really think it is more of the ratio Calcium/phosphorus....I dont think that in just a few days(thats all it takes, at the most, to know if you need to back off or add in more bone) anything is going to be "ruined". And that is around a daily to weekly percentage for everyone....the "numbers" for PMR(start out, they are normally different for each dog) are 80% meat, 10% edible bone and 10% organs(with at least half being liver.) Most of the vit/min needs are going to come from the organs, and they arent suggested to be added to the diet till at the VERY least a month in, if not a few months, again depending on the dog!:wink:

Remember, when feeding its ALL ABOUT knowing your own dog!:smile:

Im trying to write up a "How To Start" for a couple friends per their dogs......it is hard....so I have written out a "How I Would Do It", then added my email address and phone number reminding them to text me when EVER they have any questions!:thumb:


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## DaViking (Sep 27, 2011)

Scarlett_O' said:


> Like someone else said, I really think it is more of the ratio Calcium/phosphorus....


Yes the ratio is very important but you cant feed just any levels as long as the ratio is correct. To high levels will lead to skeletal complications as the dog gets older. That's why I asked how do you know the levels arn't to high long before the poop gets chalky? Or some may even switch it around and say, "if I feed 10% bones I'm sure glad to see chalky brittle poops, when I don't see it I would worry"


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## tem_sat (Jun 20, 2010)

DaViking said:


> Ok, fair enough but how do you know that it is not too much long before you see chalky poo? Of 10% bones, how much pure calcium does that translate to? Also, 10% of what?


"Seventy percent of bone is made up of the inorganic mineral hydroxyapatite, which includes calcium phosphate, calcium carbonate, calcium fluoride, calcium hydroxide and citrate."

From: Bone

I hope that helps.


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## DaneMama (Jun 27, 2008)

Raw bones are already calciumhosphorus balanced. That work has been done for us. The ratio is of high importance for manufactured diets because these elements are added on their own. The slightest changed in how much they add of one thing can cause horrific damage over time. 

Feeding too much bone can cause problems. Which is exactly why we mentor people switching to raw. Many times people take it upon themselves to do the switch without a mentor and things end badly. We know that too much bone will lead to hard, chalky poos, then constipation, hair and skin issues and eventually bone disorders. This is why we tell newbs to raw that if they see crumbly stools that they need to add in more muscle meat to decrease the amount of bone. A lot can be learned from excrement from the body.


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## Caty M (Aug 13, 2010)

DaViking said:


> This is an interesting questions. I too like to learn more about this side (nutrients and ratios) of the PMR diet. Clearly it has to be something more than just a loose recreation of an ancestral diet. There has to be some guidelines somewhere? Granted surviving in the wild is tough business and takes its toll but the average expected lifespan of the grey wolf on a prey diet is 8 years. Serious breakdown (including bone structure) leading to its inability to feed/hunt and follow the pack, and ultimately its death, starts before that.
> 
> I just want to learn. For all I know it might swing the other way and our domesticated dogs might live to 20 on a true ancestral diet.


You do have to realize that other than the diet, a raw fed dog and a wolf have completely different lifestyles. Our spoiled friends sleep on soft beds, aren't exposed to extreme weather, generally don't have predators, have access to vet care, never have a shortage of food, don't have to catch their own food.. whereas wild wolves do. If a wolf gets sick, it's dead. If it gets kicked while trying to kill an elk or moose, it's dead. If it hasn't found food in a month, it's dead. And generally once they hit the age they start to slow down, they can't catch food any more. It's nature. The way we care for our beloved dogs is not, and therefore neither are their lifespans.

It sure is possible to screw up a raw diet, but as long as you know the general guidelines, it's really damn hard! The body adapts to a huge variation of nutrition- there are dogs that live off big bags of corn and mystery meat- and a small variation of a raw diet is just fine. There is a lot of variation even amongst kibble brands.. some have twice as much calcium as the next brand. In the end I trust my own ability to make food and feed my dog more than a company that I really know very little about.


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## DaViking (Sep 27, 2011)

DaneMama said:


> Raw bones are already calciumhosphorus balanced. That work has been done for us.


If you feed from predominantly farm raised animals that statement is not necessarily true, if mostly industrial chicken and/or turkey it is probably false. I have worked in the industry and know exactly what is going on.


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## tem_sat (Jun 20, 2010)

DaViking said:


> If you feed from predominantly farm raised animals that statement is not necessarily true, if mostly industrial chicken and/or turkey it is probably false. I have worked in the industry and know exactly what is going on.


Meaning? 

I will step up to the plate and ask, "If you were to raise a raw-fed (PMR-fed) puppy, based on your knowledge, what adjustments would you make?"

I assume adjustments would be made for the following catagories: large breed puppy, puppy, and adult maintenance.


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## DaneMama (Jun 27, 2008)

DaViking said:


> If you feed from predominantly farm raised animals that statement is not necessarily true, if mostly industrial chicken and/or turkey it is probably false. I have worked in the industry and know exactly what is going on.


This is exactly the reason why we make sure that people include a good variety of sources in the diet. I myself tell people to feed mostly red meats if possible, as well as get more naturally raised foods. But some people just can't afford to feed some of these things, which is perfectly fine. I've seen countless dogs still thrive on a diet of predominantly factory farmed chicken/turkey. Is it ideal? No. Is it better than kibble? You betcha.


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## DaViking (Sep 27, 2011)

tem_sat said:


> Meaning?
> 
> I will step up to the plate and ask, "If you were to raise a raw-fed (PMR-fed) puppy, based on your knowledge, what adjustments would you make?"
> 
> I assume adjustments would be made for the following catagories: large breed puppy, puppy, and adult maintenance.


Meaning due to feeds and feeding schemes targeting the development of meat, bone structure in industrial farm animals (poultry are the worst) are scarified on the alter of profit. They get among other things "mushy" bones. It is nothing like a natural bone. If you want that your best bet would be to only buy free range certified organic.

What adjustments would I make? I do not know. I have zero PMR experience. I am asking questions because I don't find many nutritional guidelines for PMR that comes with detailed reasoning and discussion. I think the OP that asked the question deserves more than just a "don't worry"


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## DaViking (Sep 27, 2011)

DaneMama said:


> But some people just can't afford to feed some of these things, which is perfectly fine. I've seen countless dogs still thrive on a diet of predominantly factory farmed chicken/turkey. Is it ideal? No. Is it better than kibble? You betcha.


But you said about kibble "The slightest changed in how much they add of one thing can cause *horrific damage* over time"
This is exactly what you have in a lot of the industrial poultry today, ratios and levels are anything but natural (see my last answer) It should be a concern for PMR feeders but is mentioned nowhere I can see.

But this is turning it into a this vs that discussion which is not my intention. I prefer to keep it educational and ask questions. This has nothing to do with kibble.


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## Caty M (Aug 13, 2010)

Prey model raw is based on nature. Picture a whole animal, feed parts accordingly (or whole prey if you can afford it, mine get chicks, quail and mice). What exactly is kibble based off?? Convenience and it in no way resembles a natural diet for a carnivore..


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## pufff (Oct 23, 2011)

This link may be of help to those looking for info on the subject:
Phosphorus and Calcuim in Your Dog’s Diet |
It does not reference the data quoted but I have read a couple of research papers including this one:
Nutrient requirements of dogs and cats - National Research Council (U.S.). Ad Hoc Committee on Dog and Cat Nutrition - Google Books
which essentially back up the ratios quoted.
The penalties are indeed high for getting it wrong.


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## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

pufff said:


> This link may be of help to those looking for info on the subject:
> Phosphorus and Calcuim in Your Dog’s Diet |
> It does not reference the data quoted but I have read a couple of research papers including this one:
> Nutrient requirements of dogs and cats - National Research Council (U.S.). Ad Hoc Committee on Dog and Cat Nutrition - Google Books
> ...


I so agree. I can feed one dog pretty much prey model, so I don't worry about the calcium phosphorus ratio over time because I figure it evens itself out.

But I have a second dog that can't handle bone. I am very aware of overfeeding phosphorus with not enough calcium, and I supplement with calcium in hopefully something approximating the correct ratio.

I also get regular bloodwork done on my dogs, even if they are not ill. If something's out of whack, their innards/blood/urine would hopefully give me a warning before any damage was done.


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## DaneMama (Jun 27, 2008)

DaViking said:


> Meaning due to feeds and feeding schemes targeting the development of meat, bone structure in industrial farm animals (poultry are the worst) are scarified on the alter of profit. They get among other things "mushy" bones. It is nothing like a natural bone. If you want that your best bet would be to only buy free range certified organic.


Its terrible that animals are raised in such a way that their bones end up mushy. Free range is not necessarily a good thing either..."pastured" chickens are really the only humane way to raise chickens. Free range just means they run around in large, over populated, dark, dirty, disgusting buildings. 

A lot of the chicken we feed we get local, butcher ourselves...I see where they come from. Ideally, that's where everyone should get their chicken from. But from my experience butchering chickens who are truly pastured, free range their bones are no stronger/thicker/different than chicken bones I get from the store. The meat however is generally darker and the fat is downright yellow (from being grain fed). 



> What adjustments would I make? I do not know. I have zero PMR experience. I am asking questions because I don't find many nutritional guidelines for PMR that comes with detailed reasoning and discussion. I think the OP that asked the question deserves more than just a "don't worry"


What adjustments would you make to what? Feeding a puppy vs an adult? After the experience of raising giant breed dogs on kibble AND raw, there's no doubt in my mind that I would only raise my future dogs on raw. More even and sustained growth on raw, versus growth spurts and plateaus on kibble. My mentors for switching have been feeding raw for generations of dogs with only positive results. I was (and am) as skeptical as anyone to the nitty gritty facts and requirements. I NEEDED to know that feeding raw was right, healthy, ideal, etc before taking the plunge. I'm glad I did make the switch because now I have 100% faith in this way of feeding dogs. 



DaViking said:


> But you said about kibble "The slightest changed in how much they add of one thing can cause *horrific damage* over time"
> This is exactly what you have in a lot of the industrial poultry today, ratios and levels are anything but natural (see my last answer) It should be a concern for PMR feeders but is mentioned nowhere I can see.


I can definitely see where you are coming from and I agree with you. Commercially raised animals are not as healthy to feed as naturally raised foods. It has been discussed here before, many times actually. And it all comes back to what people can afford to feed their animals...most people can't afford to feed their dogs anything but commercially raised animals. Which is why variety is so important. A dog fed 100% venison and nothing but venison would be set for life because you can't get more natural than wild game (I would feed 100% wild game if I could!). But dogs who eat commercially raised meats NEED variety. Chicken, turkey, pork, lamb, beef, fish, fresh eggs, etc.


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## evildiva (Jul 3, 2011)

so back to the question: has feeding a large breed puppy (since 3 months old) on high bone content for about a month done any harm to his growth?


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## pufff (Oct 23, 2011)

evildiva said:


> so back to the question: has feeding a large breed puppy (since 3 months old) on high bone content for about a month done any harm to his growth?


I think no-one as answered this because no-one knows the answer. Sorry! It was only one month though, so I would just try not to worry. Where are you in Scotland? I'm in Fife.


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## DaViking (Sep 27, 2011)

DaneMama said:


> I can definitely see where you are coming from and I agree with you. Commercially raised animals are not as healthy to feed as naturally raised foods. It has been discussed here before, many times actually. And it all comes back to what people can afford to feed their animals...most people can't afford to feed their dogs anything but commercially raised animals. Which is why variety is so important. A dog fed 100% venison and nothing but venison would be set for life because you can't get more natural than wild game (I would feed 100% wild game if I could!). But dogs who eat commercially raised meats NEED variety. Chicken, turkey, pork, lamb, beef, fish, fresh eggs, etc.


I like this.

Done right by a household who can and are willing to follow through without cutting corners I see tremendous benefits from feeding raw style. You can quote me on that :smile: 
But don't you think PMR as a style, method, concept or what ever you want to call it deserves to be recognized as something more than the "don't worry" diet? So for example when there are legitimate concerns with raising your puppy predominantly on industrial farmed poultry it should make it to the PMR website in a way so ppl understand why? So many more would accept PMR if certain aspects are discussed (not here) more in depth on the main website.


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## DaViking (Sep 27, 2011)

evildiva said:


> so back to the question: has feeding a large breed puppy (since 3 months old) on high bone content for about a month done any harm to his growth?



As I said earlier in this thread I am no raw feeder so take it for what its worth. I do not think you have harmed his growth. My only advice is to dive into the subject as deep as you can to try to figure out the amount of bones he needs to cover recommended calcium and phosphor levels.


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## Caty M (Aug 13, 2010)

evildiva said:


> so back to the question: has feeding a large breed puppy (since 3 months old) on high bone content for about a month done any harm to his growth?


What exactly are you feeding him? I'm sure you mentioned dry, dusty poops, that's a sign he should have less bone and more meat, you could add a bit of boneless to his meals. 

Since switching a pup over to raw is the same as an adult, most if not all large breed dogs would get a lot of bone in the beginning. I know there are many raw fed danes here (from puppyhood!) that have no issue whatsoever. I can't really help you there because my largest dog is 18lb!


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## DaneMama (Jun 27, 2008)

evildiva said:


> so back to the question: has feeding a large breed puppy (since 3 months old) on high bone content for about a month done any harm to his growth?


No, I don't personally think that you've done any long term harm. But I honestly don't know for 100% absolute certain that you haven't done long term damage. In my years of experience helping people switch, after just a few days people either know (from reading "getting started" guides) that crumbly poo means add more meat, or they ask why their dog's poo is crumbly. He's gotten great variety thus far, so I don't think that he will be harmed from this. 

Another question for you....is his poo crumbly when coming out or does it crumble up after sitting there for a while? This is a key piece of information....that I can't believe I haven't asked you yet!



DaViking said:


> I like this.
> 
> Done right by a household who can and are willing to follow through without cutting corners I see tremendous benefits from feeding raw style. You can quote me on that :smile:
> But don't you think PMR as a style, method, concept or what ever you want to call it deserves to be recognized as something more than the "don't worry" diet? So for example when there are legitimate concerns with raising your puppy predominantly on industrial farmed poultry it should make it to the PMR website in a way so ppl understand why? So many more would accept PMR if certain aspects are discussed (not here) more in depth on the main website.


I get what you're saying and a lot of it has to do with my free time. Sure I could whip up an article based on what *I* have to say...but that's not good enough for my website. If the article is going to be there, its gotta be well referenced, etc. As of late, I don't have the free time to do it...which is why I'm glad this forum is linked to PMR so that people can come here with their questions. It sucks that I don't have much free time right now, because I most definitely want more content on PMR!


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## evildiva (Jul 3, 2011)

For most of the first month I've had him, it has been fairly crumbly when it came out. He was getting a lot of bone-in chicken. I'm feeding a lot more boneless meals now and it does change the consistency... still figuring it out though as he sometimes has sloppy poo after too many boneless meals (or too much beef!)


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

evildiva said:


> his poo has been crumbly and chalky the majority of the time (he's been on raw for approx 6 weeks now) but I have been giving mostly bone-in chicken during that time. Now that he can eat beef and all sorts of meats with no problems I'm giving him more boneless stuff. I hope I haven't damaged him by giving too much bone during that first period - that's my worry


if you do this for years and years, you could cause some damage to his kidneys by giving too much calcium. what isn't used, since calcium is
water soluble, the excess is peed out.

but, if you just go by the poo, that will tell you whether or not you're feeding too much calcium....as he gets more and more used to eating raw, he'll require less bone.....nature will take care of it.

and, i do have a stiff legged arthritic oldster.....she was torn up as a young dog by another dog down to her tendon.....i'm pretty sure any arthritis or limping or stiffness is related to age and to that particular incident.

raw has helped...we started her at age ten. she'll be twelve this month and only now are we starting to work on her homeopathically to keep her stable. 

i think she is a little stiff, so we make sure she walks and we give her some herbs to help with any inflammation. but i guarantee she'd be worse had we not started raw feeding. i feel it in MY bones. 

learn your dog and read up on it. there are lots of posts and websites on this subject:

http://www.nal.usda.gov/fnic/foodcomp/search/


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