# My friend inadvertently got herself into a raw argument for my sake :)



## schtuffy (May 17, 2010)

So my dearest friend Jennie, who is a nurse practitioner, was introduced to the concept of raw feeding when she saw me feed Louis this past summer. She doesn't own a dog, but was extremely captivated by the concept after the initial 'paranoid' questions. She has since left me for the west coast frown, but somehow struck up a conversation with a stranger or acquaintance (not sure which), and the other girl got really offended and started to rant about how nobody should feed dogs raw. It got to the point where my friend had to remind her that it wasn't even her dog, and eventually just told the person "this conversation is over!" Even after that the woman still kept going.

I wish I could have been there and given her a piece of my mind! Everyone is entitled to his/her own opinions, but I just don't understand how you can feel so passionate about feeding your dogs corn and grain :smile: Speaking of corn and grain...a couple on my street who is actually friends of some friends, feed their dog vegetarian kibble :frown: but that's another sad story for another day...


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## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

I know a vegan who feeds their dog the same way, they do apparently have a dog food for it. It's hard enough to get what you need as a human vegan, I can't imagine being able to with a dog.

What a good friend! Standing up for you like that, even though she doesn't have a dog. It's amazing how worked up people get. Sometimes you just mention something casually (my friend feeds her dog raw food"), and it turns into a hot button issue.


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## Northwoods10 (Nov 22, 2010)

That is a friend to hang onto there. :smile:

I recently made a post about an article in the Natural Dog magazine about vegan or vegetarian feeding for dogs. CRAZY. Makes me sick. One comment from the magazine was something like "I am a vegan, and if I was going to own a dog I knew that it would have to be vegan too" 

Like really people?! Are you that selfish you are going to sacrifice your dogs nutrition because of your own beliefs?!


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## RaisingWolves (Mar 19, 2011)

Northwoods10 said:


> That is a friend to hang onto there. :smile:
> 
> I recently made a post about an article in the Natural Dog magazine about vegan or vegetarian feeding for dogs. CRAZY. Makes me sick. One comment from the magazine was something like "I am a vegan, and if I was going to own a dog I knew that it would have to be vegan too"
> 
> Like really people?! Are you that selfish you are going to sacrifice your dogs nutrition because of your own beliefs?!



That's crazy! I think I posted in that thread. I actually have a copy of Dogs Naturally. 
I didn't see any vegan diets in it. Is this the same magazine? Subscribe To Dogs Naturally Magazine


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## Northwoods10 (Nov 22, 2010)

RaisingWolves said:


> That's crazy! I think I posted in that thread. I actually have a copy of Dogs Naturally.
> I didn't see any vegan diets in it. Is this the same magazine? Subscribe To Dogs Naturally Magazine


Nope, its this one:

Natural Dog Annual 2011


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## Ania's Mommy (Feb 8, 2009)

You got yourself a keeper! Sounds like a really great friend. Sorry she abandoned you for the better coast. :wink: 

I gotta say I love the fact that we have a few vegan/vegetarian PMR feeders in our midst. A couple of RATIONAL ladies. :thumb:


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## schtuffy (May 17, 2010)

I have definitely come across those vegan/vegetarian fanatic webpages for dogs. Needless to say, I couldn't get very far in reading them :frown:

And yes...the west coast is better! :frown: :frown: !!


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## Angelwing (Feb 20, 2011)

It's good that your friend argued. It's sad and frustrating to argue with someone who is so wrong but will never change their view, but good on her!



xellil said:


> It's hard enough to get what you need as a human vegan


No, it's actually quite easy. Humans aren't carnivores, we didn't evolve to eat meat.


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## malluver1005 (Nov 15, 2009)

West coast!! :rockon:

It's great for your friend that she stood up for herself like that!! Good thing I haven't come across any conversations like hers...!

ETA: I know, or should I say knew, a dog that was fed a vegetarian diet and was PTS yesterday at 9 years old!! Poor thing was allergic to being alive...


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## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

Angelwing said:


> It's good that your friend argued. It's sad and frustrating to argue with someone who is so wrong but will never change their view, but good on her!
> 
> 
> 
> No, it's actually quite easy. Humans aren't carnivores, we didn't evolve to eat meat.


We do require B12, though, which only comes from animals. I'm sure it's fairly easy if you eat eggs and cheese maybe, but true vegans have to work at getting those types of things. 

We aren't carnivores, but we are omnivores, which means we need both.

the person I know who has decided to become vegan (and put her poor Boston terrier on a vegan diet) is doing it with little thought, just some sudden desire to be free as a bird like Janis joplin and never eat the flesh of any animal. She's already looking a little peaked.


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## eternalstudent (Jul 22, 2010)

You have a friend there that is definitely one for keeping 

The first thing we are told to ask with anyone showing signs of anaemia is to ask if they are either a "wonky eater" (the words of our haematology consultant), his pet hate is vegan and vegetarian humans. If a carnivore was fed that kind of a diet it would need so much supplementation that it would really be like eating a normal dog food.

It does not matter what we do we are omnivores, dogs are carnivores and the world ain't flat!!!!!


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## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

yes, we have flat molars - we also have canines for tearing meat off a bone. Unlike, say, a horse.

I have told my friend if she wants to go vegan that's one thing, but please don't do it to her dog. She says "we are best buddies and what I do, he does."

Kinda makes me want to throw up.


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## schtuffy (May 17, 2010)

Yea...Louis actually bullies this poor dog and is borderline aggressive towards him, which is unusual for him. So you see this 12 lb fluffy white thing going crazy and barking at this poor huge greyhound...it's actually a funny sight (but frustrating for me...). My husband says Louis is just passionate and upset that the poor dog has to eat such things! Or he's confused because the greyhound smells like a giant over-sized vegetable :tongue:


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## KittyKat (Feb 11, 2011)

schtuffy said:


> Yea...Louis actually bullies this poor dog and is borderline aggressive towards him, which is unusual for him. So you see this 12 lb fluffy white thing going crazy and barking at this poor huge greyhound...it's actually a funny sight (but frustrating for me...). My husband says Louis is just passionate and upset that the poor dog has to eat such things! Or he's confused because the greyhound smells like a giant over-sized vegetable :tongue:


I wonder what negative impact those diets have dogs, sighthounds in particular... since sighthounds have such low body fat.
*ponders*


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## CorgiPaws (Mar 31, 2009)

That is a friend worth keeping. 

I will say, somewhat unrelated, that I feel the need to point out that I know quite a few vegan or vegetarian people who DO raw feed their dogs. Not all who choose to eat that way are ignorant to the fact that their dogs are carnivores, in fact in my experience they tend to be pretty health conscious people who understand what's best for their carnivorous companions. 
I also resent the idea that vegans/ vegetarians can't get what they need out of their diets. It's something that people should read and understand before diving into it, but a animal-free diet CAN be done quite healthily. 

*I'm not a vegetarian OR vegan. I loves roast beef!


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## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

PuppyPaws said:


> That is a friend worth keeping.
> 
> I will say, somewhat unrelated, that I feel the need to point out that I know quite a few vegan or vegetarian people who DO raw feed their dogs. Not all who choose to eat that way are ignorant to the fact that their dogs are carnivores, in fact in my experience they tend to be pretty health conscious people who understand what's best for their carnivorous companions.
> I also resent the idea that vegans/ vegetarians can't get what they need out of their diets. It's something that people should read and understand before diving into it, but a animal-free diet CAN be done quite healthily.
> ...


I didn't mean to say they can't, I think I said it's not that simple, especially if you are vegan. You can't just graze on fruits and nuts and corn and expect to stay healthy - humans need things that only come from animal meat, whether we like it or not. So you have to supplement, or eat enriched foods, to get those things.

In the end, no person is TRULY vegan, or they will get sick. If you take B12 in a pill, that B12 still comes from a cow.

Edited to add: I doubt if very many vegetarians/vegans force it on their dogs. I think most people are more sensible than that. I do, however, know someone who is feeding her dog as a vegan.


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## CorgiPaws (Mar 31, 2009)

xellil said:


> I didn't mean to say they can't, I think I said it's not that simple, especially if you are vegan. You can't just graze on fruits and nuts and corn and expect to stay healthy - humans need things that only come from animal meat, whether we like it or not. So you have to supplement, or eat enriched foods, to get those things.
> 
> In the end, no person is TRULY vegan, or they will get sick. If you take B12 in a pill, that B12 still comes from a cow.
> 
> Edited to add: I doubt if very many vegetarians/vegans force it on their dogs. I think most people are more sensible than that. I do, however, know someone who is feeding her dog as a vegan.


My post wasn't directed at anyone in particular, just stating it because I hate the assumption that if you're vegan/ vegetarian then you must not be healthy, and you must also want to force it on every person or animal you come in contact with. I don't feel anyone has gone there in this thread, yet, but it's been known to happen in the past. :smile:

That being said, I know of someone who forces their vegetarian diet on their dog, and it's a sad, sad case. He honestly believes that his dog "told" him that he wanted to be a vegetarian because he didn't like "murdering other animals for the sake of food." He also believes that since switching his dog to a vegetarian diet, he's happier because he doesn't have to "feel guilty about hurting animals."

...he HONESTLY believes all that to be the truth. It's insane. His dog is in terrible shape, very underweight, and a coat that is falling out like crazy, with always runny goopy eyes. And he wonders why his dog is constantly sick getting things like kennel cough or URI's. Depleted immune system, much?


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## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

I have to think there are enough people, though, to make a market - my friend sent me a photo of a bag of vegan dog food. 

I think there are three kinds of vegans/vegetarians

Those who do it for health
Those who do it as a political statement
Those who do it for both reasons, but usually one reason is more important to them than the other. 

But, the ones who make their dogs do it are just not thinking. I know my friend who is making her dog eat vegan just one day up and decided she was becoming an animal activist and wouldn't support the killing of animals, and neither would her dog. She did no research whatsoever. Of course, she also regularly gets tired of her dogs and gives them to her aunt to raise, and then shortly thereafter gets another puppy, so I am not too worried her dog will be forced into this forever. Matter of fact, she probably will be a vegan until it becomes inconvenient.

Edited to add: I will just say I have absolutely nothing against it - I think studies have shown that people who are vegetarian have lower cholesterol etc. than those who aren't. I don't wanna do it, I like steak, and I always have problems when a vegetarian visits me (what do you do after veggie pizza?) but people who eat vegetarian have a commitment, which I have to admire.


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## Northwoods10 (Nov 22, 2010)

Its your choice to be a vegetarian or vegan, we are omnivores...we can make that work. 

It is also our choice to decide what to feed our dogs. When that choice becomes what we WANT and not what they NEED its not about the dog anymore. Its about you. 

They may be taking into consideration the ethics and treatment of other animals, but are they thinking about the animal they agreed to give their all to?


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## Angelwing (Feb 20, 2011)

xellil said:


> yes, we have flat molars - we also have canines for tearing meat off a bone. Unlike, say, a horse.


Not true. Our teeth were never designed for eating meat. We also have long digestive tracts, which is also not designed for handling meat well. We've just adapted to it and people are so used to eating meat that we think nothing of it. I personally compare it to feeding dogs kibble food.



> In the end, no person is TRULY vegan, or they will get sick.


Ugh, you really need to do some research. One can easily be TRULY vegan without taking vitamin b12 pills. They just have to make sure they're eating the right sources. Like on every diet.



> If you take B12 in a pill, that B12 still comes from a cow.


No it doesn't. There are plenty of vegan vitamin supplements. And lots of supplements the b12 is synthesized. 

I'm vegetarian because I believe that it's the better diet for me. I feed my dogs/cats raw because I believe it's a better diet for them. I don't go around pushing my vegetarian views on everybody, but when you blatantly state incorrect information then I'll pipe up.


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## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

It is just not that black and white, or at least it doesn't appear so to me. i apologize for any incorrect statement i made - I am not (repeat) not knocking vegetarians.

Here's an interesting article -
Were Humans Meant to Eat Meat?

one fellow says _"*Humans aren't physiologically designed to eat meat*. "I think the evidence is pretty clear. If you look at various characteristics of carnivores versus herbivores, it doesn't take a genius to see where humans line up," says Roberts, editor in chief of The American Journal of Cardiology and medical director of the Baylor Heart and Vascular Institute at Baylor University Medical Center in Dallas. © Stephen Kroninger. As further evidence, Roberts cites the carnivore's short intestinal tract, which reaches about three times its body length. An herbivore's intestines are 12 times its body length, and humans are closer to herbivores, he says. Roberts rattles off other similarities between human beings and herbivores. Both get vitamin C from their diets (carnivores make it internally). Both sip water, not lap it up with their tongues. Both cool their bodies by perspiring (carnivores pant). "_

But in the same article, another fellow says _"As intriguing as these arguments may be, t*he idea that humans are natural vegetarians has "no scientific basis in fact*," argues anatomist and primatologist John McArdle. Alarmed by this growing belief, McArdle, a vegetarian, says the human anatomy proves that people are omnivores._

_"We obviously are not carnivores, but we are equally obviously not strict vegetarians, if you carefully examine the anatomical, physiological and fossil evidence," says McArdle, executive director of the Alternatives Research and Development Foundation in Eden Prairie, Minnesota. According to a 1999 article in the journal The Ecologist,* several of our physiological features "clearly indicate a design" for eating meat, including "our stomach's production of hydrochloric acid, something not found in herbivores*. Furthermore, the human pancreas manufactures a full range of digestive enzymes to handle a wide variety of foods, both animal and vegetable. "_

And:
_"History argues in favor of the omnivore argument, *considering that humans have eaten meat for 2.5 million years or more, according to fossil evidence*. Indeed, when researchers examined the chemical makeup of the teeth of an early African hominid that lived in woodlands three million years ago, they expected to learn that our ancestor lived on fruits and leaves. "But the isotopic clues show that it ate a varied diet, including either grassland plants or animals that themselves fed on grasses," reported the journal Science in 1999."_

i never get offended if people correct me when I'm wrong - I welcome it, in fact. not sure about the B12 - it's produced from bacteria but seems to grow in meat. Here's something from a website on how to eat vegan, it states very clearly it only naturally appears in animals - I suppose that yes you could synthesize it and we probably eat alot of stuff that comes from a laboratory rather than from nature: 
How can a vegan diet be healthy? - The Globe and Mail

_"Vitamin B12 is found naturally only in animal foods so vegetarians must include three servings of B12 in their daily diet: fortified soy or rice beverage (1/2 cup), nutritional yeast (1 tbsp), fortified breakfast cereal (30 grams), fortified soy “meat” (1.5 ounces).

Vegans should choose fortified foods and take a B12 supplement (as a separate supplement or from a multivitamin).

A vegan diet does not provide any vitamin D; you will need to take a 1000 IU daily supplement of vitamin D3. "_

I guess the point being - you can't stay healthy just eating plants - you have to supplement somehow.


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## Angelwing (Feb 20, 2011)

I've read studies concluding that because we wash our veggies now, the soil/microorganisms/b12 with it is gone. Also that we aren't able to (with current technology) determine how much (if any) b12 occurs in plants. I'm pretty sure there is a vitamin line that produces non-synthetic b12 from growing bacteria. But personally I would supplement or make sure to eat fortified foods.

There are conflicting arguements whether or not sunlight can provide adequate vitamin D (especially without compromising other health areas) during the winter months. I suppose it depends on which area you are in but technically you can get vitamin D through sunlight (which is vegan!) and is adequate during the summer. Exposure on direct skin for a certain period everyday is generally what is recommended. But that's kinda hard to do during the winter when it's -40 out. I would supplement this too if I were vegan (probably even if I weren't sickly).

As for hydrochloric acid, it also is designed to ward off bacterial overgrowth (as well as break down proteins which are also found in nuts etc). People can argue until they're blue in the face about this topic but at the end of the day I really just care what goes into my body. Sorry if I came off sounding a bit harsh. I just really hate argueing about this but I also feel the need to at times.


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## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

I don't think we are arguing - we are discussing!! I like discussing 

I wish I knew everything, but i don't.


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## Northwoods10 (Nov 22, 2010)

I know NOTHING about vegan or vegetarian diets. NOTHING. And I won't claim to.

What I do know is that there is a difference between a carnivore, omnivore and herbivore. This is something I'm pretty sure we all learned in elementary school! 

I commend those of you who are vegan or vegetarians who have enough respect for your animals to feed them a species appropriate diet, and not just what is what you believe is healthy for you. That says a lot about a person.


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## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

This is what I learned today - there is argument in scientific circles whether we are even omnivores. Some folks think we are really herbivores. Now, I'm not sure i agree with that, but it's food for thought, so to speak.


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## Angelwing (Feb 20, 2011)

I honestly feel much better (as can be expected with my conditions I suppose) since going vegetarian, but only when I'm being good and healthy about it. I try not to eat much processed food but when I do my body can totally tell (and it's not pleased). I imagine that it might be similar to a dog that was on processed food and then switching to raw. They probably feel much better.

I had a lot of trouble with raw in most aspects (I'm also vegetarian for ethical reasons) but I had done a lot of research on dry dog food and once I discovered raw a few years ago I started looking more into that. I only just recently started feeding raw and although I don't think I'll ever handle meat with my bare hands (thank you gloves) I can all ready see the benefits of it. Only a few weeks ago both my cats were almost in need of a dental. Now their teeth are almost PERFECT (honestly I would not have believed anyone who said eating bones in a matter of weeks has the potential to clean most of an animal's teeth but I now have living proof). I look in their mouths everyday and am still amazed haha. One of my cats has ibs and I had mostly gotten it under control with commercial diet and digestive enzymes but his poops were still stinky (but solid, thank god). On raw, now I only have to clean the litter box once per day instead of 3 or immediately after he pooped! There was a small period where their hair was getting greasy but I think I was overfeeding fat. I'm still learning (even though I've done hours and hours of reading) and I plan on reading and gathering as much info as possible. This forum has definitely been a positive experience for me and my animals. Without it I probably would not have started raw yet.


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## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

I would have been cooking food, as I was looking for recipes to put in a crockpot for my dogs when i ran across this site, totally by accident. I truly have seen positive, almost extreme results in a little over a week.

I'm getting used to gooey chicken, but the first couple of days I could barely stand to touch it. Especially since the first chicken we got had its head and feet attached.


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## BrownieM (Aug 30, 2010)

I don't know anything about vegan diets but I do know that, like anything new, you do have to take the time to make sure you will be getting all of your nutrients. Two of my family members tried a vegan diet and were fainting like mad! They were obviously not getting everything they needed in their diet. Not because the vegan diet was failing them, but because they were failing to make sure they got all of their nutrients. I think it can be difficult because many of us are so used to a diet that is much different from a vegan diet. We are used to balancing our diets in a certain way. If we grew up eating vegetarian or vegan diets, it wouldn't be a big deal in the slightest. I honestly commend anyone who eats a vegan diet. I know that vegetarian and vegan are different, but I did give a vegetarian (well, loosely vegetarian as I still ate fish) diet a try for about six months. I really did feel healthy, although I had postural hypotension every time I stood up. Went to the doctor and he said I was just young, thin, healthy, low blood pressure and that this is common in young women like me. Anyway, I started eating meat again and I guess the sodium upped my blood pressure LOL so I don't get the postural hypotension as much. 

Anyway, my current diet is largely opportunistic (he he) I eat whatever is convenient, while trying to be somewhat health conscious. My diet could use much improvement and I think I would be MUCH healthier if my diet included more fruits, veggies, nuts, grains and less meat. Particularly less red meat. 

Also, I do not think that humans eating meat is comparable to dogs eating kibble. One is processed much much more than the other. I'd say humans living off of processed foods like cereal and granola bars is a better comparison. I truly believe humans would be healthiest living on a diet of very little meat and more plant matter. I can't say that I think it is necessary to completely eliminate all meat, but that is just me. I understand the other arguments as well and I think they make sense too!

Finally, I know that there are many vegetarian feeders on this forum who feed their dogs a raw diet. I think you are awesome because not only do you care about your own health, you care about your dog's health and understand that they have different needs. If only I could start eating healthy...


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## Angelwing (Feb 20, 2011)

BrownieM said:


> Also, I do not think that humans eating meat is comparable to dogs eating kibble. One is processed much much more than the other. I'd say humans living off of processed foods like cereal and granola bars is a better comparison. I truly believe humans would be healthiest living on a diet of very little meat and more plant matter.


I meant humans eating processed food is comparable to dogs eating kibble, not to us eating meat. I should have been more specific but I really need a nap!


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## hcdoxies (Sep 22, 2010)

Has anyone had the apple pecan chicken salad at Wendy's? Yum!


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## candiceb (Jan 22, 2010)

Just wanted to pop in with my two cents! 

I respect everyone's opinions around here, but I do believe humans are omnivores. With careful planning we can live on a vegetarian or *gasp* even a carnivorous diet (e.g. the Inuit), but I do believe we are omnivores.

Personally I take the stance that we should eat mostly plant-based foods with only a little meat occasionally. Mostly I believe this because of other cultures in history and throughout the world. 

Traditionally, tribal humans eat what they hunt and gather, but mostly what they gather. Roots, fruits, berries, nuts, and leaves. I may be wrong but I'm fairly confident that I remember a figure saying that 90% of the hunter/gatherer nutrients come from gathering. Meat, fish, and eggs are not reliable sources of food, and only eaten occasionally. Not all hunts are successful. 

Also, if you look at the humans with the longest lifespans today and lowest rates of diet-related disease (particularly Asians and Mediterraneans) they eat diets high in grains, vegetables, and fruits, with some dairy, a little fish, and rarely meat. 

I do try to mimic such guidelines for myself. Most days I'm vegetarian, eating meat maybe once every week or two. It's been a big year for me, as I went from eating McDonald's and Taco Bell nearly every day to only having fast food 5 times in the last 5 months. I've largely given up processed foods, and it's such a good feeling! Most people don't like the idea of reducing the amount of meat in their diets, but anyone can eat more fresh, unprocessed foods and more fruits and veggies. 

Anyway, for me the dogs were a reason to start eating better. I figured, hey, I feed my dogs species-appropriate and I'd preach the benefits of doing so all day long; it's about time I started taking care of myself as well!


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## RaisingWolves (Mar 19, 2011)

hcdoxies said:


> Has anyone had the apple pecan chicken salad at Wendy's? Yum!


No, but it sounds good!!!
I'm a meat eater (aka Grok).I feel better eating high protein diet. I wonder if I'm part dog?:heh:


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## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

Yes, I'm not buying too much that we are herbivores. I think we are opportunistic eaters, adapting to the environment, and eating anything that is available, and that's throughout history back forever. Which would make us omnivores.

Like the Inuit. They were carnivores out of necessity. They also didn't have heart attacks or diabetes. Had fruits and grains been available, they would have eaten fruits and grains.


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