# Orijen.... Sometimes...



## kevin bradley (Aug 9, 2009)

....I'll just pull up their ingredient list to chuckle(in a good way).

Seriously, it's almost ridiculous. Just crazy...

*Orijen Adult Dog Food 80/20 Formula Ingredients*Fresh boneless chicken*, chicken meal, fresh boneless salmon*, turkey meal, herring meal, russet potato, peas, sweet potato, fresh boneless turkey*, fresh whole eggs*, fresh chicken liver*, fresh boneless lake whitefish*, fresh boneless walleye*, sun-cured alfalfa, pea fiber, chicken fat (preserved with mixed tocopherols), organic kelp, pumpkin, chicory root, carrots, spinach, turnip greens, apples, cranberries, blueberries, licorice root, angelica root, fenugreek, marigold flowers, sweet fennel, peppermint leaf, chamomile, dandelion, summer savory, rosemary, vitamin A, vitamin D3, vitamin E, niacin, thiamine mononitrate, riboflavin, d-calcium pantothenate, pyridoxine, folic acid, biotin, vitamin B12, zinc proteinate, iron proteinate, manganese proteinate, copper proteinate, selenium yeast, Lactobacillus acidophilus, Enterococcus faecium.


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## PDXdogmom (Jun 30, 2010)

Your post could be interpreted in a number of ways - not sure exactly what your focus is.


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## kevin bradley (Aug 9, 2009)

...as in I'm amazed at its magnificence. 

Clear enough?


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## MollyWoppy (Mar 19, 2010)

Clear as a bell. And I totally agree with you, it is an awesome food.


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## kevin bradley (Aug 9, 2009)

I mean, its chuck full of Core Meat Ingredients and if that isn't enough....they throw in SUN CURED ALFALFA, ORGANIC KELP, Rosemary, Walleye...Whitefish....

Like I said, it's just crazy that a food like this is available to our Dogs. We're not in the Supermarket section with Purina only baby!!!

Awesome.


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## PDXdogmom (Jun 30, 2010)

*...as in I'm amazed at its magnificence. 

Clear enough?*

I thought that's probably what you meant, but I was a little gun-shy in assuming it. I was reading a thread while visiting another dog forum where the Orijen ingredients (especially the fruit and botanical inclusions were being blasted as a bunch of marketing hype. I should have assumed that wouldn't be the case here.


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## dmgmn (Apr 24, 2011)

HaHaHa, i do the exact same thing Kevin
In total awe of some these extremely good kibbles out there.
I actually had to read the ingredients for TOTW Wetlands several times thinking "wonder if i can eat this?"


kevin bradley said:


> ....I'll just pull up their ingredient list to chuckle(in a good way).
> 
> Seriously, it's almost ridiculous. Just crazy...
> 
> *Orijen Adult Dog Food 80/20 Formula Ingredients*Fresh boneless chicken*, chicken meal, fresh boneless salmon*, turkey meal, herring meal, russet potato, peas, sweet potato, fresh boneless turkey*, fresh whole eggs*, fresh chicken liver*, fresh boneless lake whitefish*, fresh boneless walleye*, sun-cured alfalfa, pea fiber, chicken fat (preserved with mixed tocopherols), organic kelp, pumpkin, chicory root, carrots, spinach, turnip greens, apples, cranberries, blueberries, licorice root, angelica root, fenugreek, marigold flowers, sweet fennel, peppermint leaf, chamomile, dandelion, summer savory, rosemary, vitamin A, vitamin D3, vitamin E, niacin, thiamine mononitrate, riboflavin, d-calcium pantothenate, pyridoxine, folic acid, biotin, vitamin B12, zinc proteinate, iron proteinate, manganese proteinate, copper proteinate, selenium yeast, Lactobacillus acidophilus, Enterococcus faecium.


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## PUNKem733 (Jun 12, 2009)

PDXdogmom said:


> *...as in I'm amazed at its magnificence.
> 
> Clear enough?*
> 
> I thought that's probably what you meant, but I was a little gun-shy in assuming it. I was reading a thread while visiting another dog forum where the Orijen ingredients (especially the fruit and botanical inclusions were being blasted as a bunch of marketing hype. I should have assumed that wouldn't be the case here.


What logic to follow. Ignore the first 7-10 ingredients that make up 95+% of the food, to attack botanicals, that admittedly don't have to be in the food but make up such a miniscule amount. If these folks are feeding a raw diet fine, but if not then they are feeding an inferior food.


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## kevin bradley (Aug 9, 2009)

I agree that the lower ingredients on the list are probably pretty meaningless.... who knows though?... if you believe in Herbal stuff like Chickory root and Alfalfa, Peppermint... those ingredients may not need to be bountiful to wreap the benefits-- just thinking out loud here. 

I just get a kick out of many of them. 

Regardless, I'm not sure how anyone could attack Orijen as a bad food. I would say the only way you could do so would be to completely disagree with Dry Food entirely and only approve of Raw/real food.


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## dr tim (Mar 27, 2011)

OK, here goes.

When reading a label I assume all understand once something goes through the extruder it looses 70-75% of its weight and becomes a meal( a dry product) so the ingredients real placement in the order of inclusion is much lower. The added meal product is already dry and that weight isn't going to change. So a dry product going into the machine doesn't cahnge it's ratio in regards to all other ingredients but a meat inclusion will drop significantly in this order. I hope this makes sense but labels can be extrememly misleading and are often meant to do just that.

This very well could be the greatest product ever made for a dog, I don't know, but people should understand how best to read a label. Any raw ingredient, be it meat or a sweet potato, is going to lose most of its weight when run through an extruder. Is that ingredient any different than a "meal" type product? Maybe/maybe not. Depends on the quality of the included ingredients to begin with.

Again, this isn't anti any food, just an educational point that I am sure many are aware of but I see it used every day on TV ads to confuse the pet owner. It makes me a tad upset.


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## kevin bradley (Aug 9, 2009)

Tim,

Are you simply stating that a meat "meal" is better than say.."chicken?"

If thats your point, yeah, we all know this... and Orijen is litterred with both named meats and meals. 

If you meant something else, my apologies and I'm all ears.


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## dr tim (Mar 27, 2011)

I am just trying to say don't be mislead by whole meat inclusions in a kibble as it is easily misinterpreted as being the first ingredient, etc., because of how it listed on the labels. Ingredients are listed by the weight of that said ingredient prior to being run through the extruder, thus before having the water cooked out and the dry product left behind to be part of the finished kibbled product.

IMO, many meals can be much more benficial than some meat products. It all depends on the quality that is used, and that part of the equation boils down to trusting whatever company is making the food. I sure learned the hard way in making dog food and finding a trust worthy plant. 

That is an amazing amount of meat products in Origen. I wish I could clean a fish with out leaving bones in it myself.


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## Serendipity (Aug 13, 2010)

No one's being misled here .


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## kevin bradley (Aug 9, 2009)

Tim,

I guess I would understand your point if the ONLY named meat sources were "Chicken," "Turkey," etc....

But even if you bumped those down the list, you'd still have 3-4 "meals" at the top of the list. 

I think your point is fair if directed at the right food. This one isn't it. Not even close.


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## MollyWoppy (Mar 19, 2010)

And, I can give you a lesson or ten on filleting a fish without leaving bones behind.


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## kevin bradley (Aug 9, 2009)

Livin in SW Florida, MW has to know a thing or two about a nice fillet, I'd guess 

Tim, you should hire her as a Consultant on how to bring more fish into your foods. I'd say she's worth about $1000/hr+ travel expenses up to the U.P., HEH?

You gotta pay for quality.


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## dr tim (Mar 27, 2011)

Hey there;

Not any food singled out here but I do need a vacation where filleting a fish is a prerequisite!


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## doggiedad (Jan 23, 2011)

i switch my kibble and can food. this month it's Orijen.
i also feed my dog fresh food (chicken, fish, beef, raw egg (with ground shells),
friut, rice, quinoa, millet and the list goes on.


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## doggiedad (Jan 23, 2011)

let the butcher do it.



MollyWoppy said:


> And, I can give you a lesson or ten on filleting a fish without leaving bones behind.


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## 3Musketeers (Nov 4, 2010)

Totally OT but...

Hey Dr. Tim, I can filet fish too, pick me pick me. (Sorry Molly  )


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## RealDog (Jul 4, 2011)

dr tim said:


> OK, here goes.
> 
> When reading a label I assume all understand once something goes through the extruder it looses 70-75% of its weight and becomes a meal( a dry product) so the ingredients real placement in the order of inclusion is much lower. The added meal product is already dry and that weight isn't going to change. So a dry product going into the machine doesn't cahnge it's ratio in regards to all other ingredients but a meat inclusion will drop significantly in this order. I hope this makes sense but labels can be extrememly misleading and are often meant to do just that.
> 
> ...


I really don't know why i signed up for this. Perhaps I don't like to see people getting ripped off. I was at my local feed store on Saturday aand saw this Orijen fraud selling for $65 a bag (28lbs) and one for $85 a bag (28lbs). Folks you realize this is pretty much like any other 
consumer grade dog food? Consumer grade is a food for the family pet. I assume the Dr. Tim posting is the real Dr. Tim Hunt that makes a super ass kicking performance food. Good work. Not the only great performance food but certainly one of the best.

Folks, the "real meat" in Orijen is pretty much a scam in a nutritional sense and the meals are like any other. They are pretty much all the same grade for grade.

That is $35 - $40 bag of dog food.

You will not see that food used anywhere in competitive events and people even laugh at it. As for the 
Orijen White Paper, please note it is just a cut and paste fraud too. Not one bit of original research.

I also understand from my retailer that repeat buying of Orijen is declining rapidly. So I suppose consumers see no real difference.

Most dogs on a forum like this will do better on a traditional kibble (no potato) with about 25% protein and 
15% fat. You can buy a good like Pro Pac for about $28 a bag, 44lbs. If you have to have a grain free then 
Earthborn is $25 a bag less than Orijen.

It is your money.


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## Serendipity (Aug 13, 2010)

RealDog said:


> Most dogs on a forum like this will do better on a traditional kibble (no potato) with about 25% protein and
> 15% fat. You can buy a good like Pro Pac for about $28 a bag, 44lbs. If you have to have a grain free then
> Earthborn is $25 a bag less than Orijen.
> 
> It is your money.


Why do you think most dogs do better with low protein?


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## RealDog (Jul 4, 2011)

Serendipity said:


> Why do you think most dogs do better with low protein?


25% is not low at all. The amounts of protein in many dog foods are not required for adult companion animals. Likewise, many high protein 
foods are also too high in fat.

It is just not needed for the average dog and could do harm over the dogs life.

If sled, agility and hunting dogs perform well on 30% or lower protein foods why do you the think the average Golden Retriever needs 38%??? Wild canines would never eat so many grams of protein on average. 

I am not suggesting you feed Ole Roy but most grain free foods are simply a waste of money and contain many silly ingredients, like 
licorice root, which is a known toxin.

I would rather take the advise of Dr. Tim Hunt instead of the guy with the beard that moderates this board. You could cut your food bill in half and use a better food than Orijen.


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## MollyWoppy (Mar 19, 2010)

I really do try to keep an open mind, I really do, so I went and had a look at the food you recommended.
Looking at the first 10 ingredients of Propac 'High Performance' and comparing it to the first 10 ingredients of Orijen 'Adult Dog', I agree, I am indeed laughing at the silly ingredients. 
I don't think the people on a forum like this need me to point out which ingredient list belongs to which brand. 
And, I don't feel ripped off in the slightest that I will continue to spend my money on a food that puts the emphasis on meat as opposed to fillers, corn and salt. 


Chicken Meal, Ground Yellow Corn, Chicken Fat (preserved with mixed Tocopherols, a source of Vitamin E), Dried Beet Pulp, Natural Flavoring, Flaxseed, Yeast Culture, Salt, Potassium Chloride, Choline Chloride

Fresh boneless chicken*, chicken meal, fresh boneless salmon*, turkey meal, herring meal, russet potato, peas, sweet potato, fresh boneless turkey*, fresh whole eggs


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## RealDog (Jul 4, 2011)

MollyWoppy said:


> I really do try to keep an open mind, I really do, so I went and had a look at the food you recommended.
> Looking at the first 10 ingredients of Propac 'High Performance' and comparing it to the first 10 ingredients of Orijen 'Adult Dog', I agree, I am indeed laughing at the silly ingredients.
> I don't think the people on a forum like this need me to point out which ingredient list belongs to which brand.
> And, I don't feel ripped off in the slightest that I will continue to spend my money on a food that puts the emphasis on meat as opposed to fillers, corn and salt.
> ...



The fresh meats in Orijen don't add to much nutrition and neither do the eggs. There are probably 3 - 4 eggs in 
that bag. The real protein comes from Chicken Meal, Herring Meal & Turkey meal. Pro Pac has more chicken meal and uses 
that as the main protein. Which is good in the long run in terms of protein exposure. The potatoes and peas are not better
than the human grade ground corn in Pro Pac but they do sound better I will grant you that.

Ask yourself are you feeding a person or a dog?

Pro Pac HP is about $28 a bag. One one the best values around.

Why not compare Tim Hunt's Pursuit or Momentum to Orijen and also look at who uses those foods.


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## RawFedDogs (Jun 16, 2008)

Is that the same Dr. Tim that used to come here and makes posts? Whatever happened to him? I miss him. He put forth a good effort at defending his phylosophy but I guess in the end it just didn't fly. May not be the same Dr. Tim but I bet it is because I believe he said he manufactured dog food.

Why would you put 3 different kinds of salt in a dog food? Oh, I know why ... so it would move them further down the ingredients list to make it look like there is a lot less salt than is really there.


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## RealDog (Jul 4, 2011)

RawFedDogs said:


> Is that the same Dr. Tim that used to come here and makes posts? Whatever happened to him? I miss him. He put forth a good effort at defending his phylosophy but I guess in the end it just didn't fly. May not be the same Dr. Tim but I bet it is because I believe he said he manufactured dog food.
> 
> Why would you put 3 different kinds of salt in a dog food? Oh, I know why ... so it would move them further down the ingredients list to make it look like there is a lot less salt than is really there.


Hey Mr. Moderator,

Can you put your CV in this thread. I want to see your professional and educational background in canine nutrition. Dr. Tim is one of the best known sports vets in the US. Do some research on him and the teams that use his food.

northUpland: Dr. Tim Hunt On Dr. Tim's Dog Food

Please put your CV on hear I am interested in your background. I am guessing you read a few books on raw feeding. You 
use a lot of the buzz words.


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## RealDog (Jul 4, 2011)

So Bill, where is your CV????? I find it funny that you make a crack at Dr. Tim Hunt. Do you know who he is?

I want to see your medical degrees and professional experience in canine nutrition.


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## dmgmn (Apr 24, 2011)

Sounds to me REALDOG, You are just trolling for a fight??


RealDog said:


> So Bill, where is your CV????? I find it funny that you make a crack at Dr. Tim Hunt. Do you know who he is?
> 
> I want to see your medical degrees and professional experience in canine nutrition.


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## RealDog (Jul 4, 2011)

dmgmn said:


> Sounds to me REALDOG, You are just trolling for a fight??


No not at all. He made a crack at Dr. Tim Hunt who is a highly experienced sports medicine vet and is well known 
internationally in sled dog racing. He makes one of the best foods on the market.

I want to know Bill's qualifications.

Is that too much to ask??


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## CorgiPaws (Mar 31, 2009)

Realdog-
You seem to have found real comfort in your imaginary superiority to the members here. Well, let me assure you that that kind of attitude will not be taken well. Plenty of our members have far more education and experience with canine nutrition that you are not taking into consideration. I strongly suggest you take a step back. 
First of all, an individual's education is only as merited as the source it came from. Most vets and professionals are fed misinformation through their education process. Even then, the classes required as so minimal they hardly count for anything. Then there are those fed information from the dog food companies [follow the money trail....] that greatly lack common sense. 

What both science AND common sense tell us: dogs are carnivores. Their bodies are designed to eat, digest, and handle meat, bones, and organs. You simply can NOT present an argument that will overthrow that because it is fact, logic, and common sense. Therefore, when picking a kibble, it would only make sense to pick the one that most CLOSELY resembles that, AND avoids the most common allergens. I suggest you do a bit more reading before you come here pretending to be the know all of dog foods.... because I assure you, there are several members that will chew you up and spit you out, and in the end, you've only made a jacka** out of yourself.


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## RealDog (Jul 4, 2011)

PuppyPaws said:


> Realdog-
> You seem to have found real comfort in your imaginary superiority to the members here. Well, let me assure you that that kind of attitude will not be taken well. Plenty of our members have far more education and experience with canine nutrition that you are not taking into consideration. I strongly suggest you take a step back.
> First of all, an individual's education is only as merited as the source it came from. Most vets and professionals are fed misinformation through their education process. Even then, the classes required as so minimal they hardly count for anything. Then there are those fed information from the dog food companies [follow the money trail....] that greatly lack common sense.
> 
> What both science AND common sense tell us: dogs are carnivores. Their bodies are designed to eat, digest, and handle meat, bones, and organs. You simply can NOT present an argument that will overthrow that because it is fact, logic, and common sense. Therefore, when picking a kibble, it would only make sense to pick the one that most CLOSELY resembles that, AND avoids the most common allergens. I suggest you do a bit more reading before you come here pretending to be the know all of dog foods.... because I assure you, there are several members that will chew you up and spit you out, and in the end, you've only made a jacka** out of yourself.


Ok sure, you are another expert. From what you posted it sounds like you read a few books. If you want to avoid the common allergens then your dog won't be eating beef, chicken, eggs , fish or dairy. These foods are responsible for virtually all allergies in dogs. Cooked or raw.

Admit that you have never worked with dogs on a professional level. Right?? You read Tom Lonsdale's book and now you are an expert.

Do some research on Tim Hunt and the teams throughout the world using his food IN PLACE OF RAW.


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## CorgiPaws (Mar 31, 2009)

RealDog said:


> Ok sure, you are another expert. From what you posted it sounds like you read a few books. If you want to avoid the common allergens then your dog won't be eating beef, chicken, eggs , fish or dairy. These foods are responsible for virtually all allergies in dogs. Cooked or raw.


Oh silly, silly boy. 
I know of plenty of dogs diagnosed with a meat allergy, that when put on raw can eat it in raw form just fine. And no, they aren't responsible for virtually all allergies in dogs. I'm sure some marketing material told you that. 



RealDog said:


> Admit that you have never worked with dogs on a professional level. Right?? You read Tom Lonsdale's book and now you are an expert.


I never claimed to be an expert. As for your claim on me working on a professional level with dogs, how wrong you are. And how ignorant you are to come on a forum and make statements about people when clearly you haven't a clue about me, Bill, or anyone else and our experience. 

You seem to put a whole lot of merit into Dr. Tim. That's fine, we've had several exchanges, I like the guy. However, what makes you think he knows so much more than Lonsdale?
Athletes can take steroids and it will make them perform better on some levels. It doesn't make it healthy.....


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## dmgmn (Apr 24, 2011)

Woo Hoo, We're havin' fun now!
So much for the chewin' up and spittin' out!!
Was that a #1 or #2?


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## RealDog (Jul 4, 2011)

PuppyPaws said:


> Oh silly, silly boy.
> I know of plenty of dogs diagnosed with a meat allergy, that when put on raw can eat it in raw form just fine. And no, they aren't responsible for virtually all allergies in dogs. I'm sure some marketing material told you that.
> 
> 
> ...


You don't know the science well about allergies. Over 80% are due to the common proteins, grains hardly register statistically. In fact in one very large study out of Belgium grain related allergies except for wheat gluten were actually lumped together because the incidence was so low.

As for Tom Lonsdale, he is a surgeon and merely observed things. He has no practical experience in feedingdogs for competition or otherwise. His book is written scientifically at the 5th grade level, just perfect to sellbooks. He has never done one lick of fundamental research, just muses.

Comparing Lonsdale to Tim Hunt and let me thrown in Robert Downey is absolutely absurd.

Any dog fed according to Lonsdale would collapse under any serious physical stress. Most of his work 
was done in canine dentistry. Yes I needed him to tell me bones cleaned teeth.


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## CorgiPaws (Mar 31, 2009)

RealDog said:


> Any dog fed according to Lonsdale would collapse under any serious physical stress.


My eight raw fed dogs say otherwise. 

You love misinformation, don't you? :wink:

Again, an athlete can take steroids and perform better on some level, it doesn't make it healthy. Especially for the long term. 

I'm glad you joined here. Things were getting dull.


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## Serendipity (Aug 13, 2010)

My dog WAS on a 26% protein/16% fat kibble before. He is now on a higher protein food (Orijen/Evo with 95% meat canned food and 2-3 raw meals a week) because he does much BETTER on it and no longer has large and soft stools. He just eats less of it than a working dog would. 

As for raw, you might want to take a look at what DR. TIM posted in his intro thread, since you like to rely on him for nutritional advice. 



dr tim said:


> I do raw with the kibble, many on the forum do all raw-I think that is great.





dr tim said:


> But, with the realization that folks can't all do that ultimately best diet(raw) I devised a kibbled diet to reflect what I believe to be the closest possible without window dressing, I.e., fluff ingtredients that I don't see as beneficial unless you use enough of them.


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## RawFedDogs (Jun 16, 2008)

RealDog said:


> Please put your CV on hear I am interested in your background. I am guessing you read a few books on raw feeding. You use a lot of the buzz words.


I have been in the raw feeding world for 10 years. I'm sure I use buzzwords. We will discuss both your and my qualifications when you get back from your 3 day time out IF your attitude has changed. :smile:


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## Caty M (Aug 13, 2010)

Aw, crap. I better go tell my sheltie he can't do any agility or flyball anymore, lest he collapse from his crappy, nature designed, non processed diet. No more walkies for him!

Saltydogs, practicalfeeder and now realdog, I've missed you! :happy:


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## CorgiPaws (Mar 31, 2009)

bishopthesheltie said:


> Aw, crap. I better go tell my sheltie he can't do any agility or flyball anymore, lest he collapse from his crappy, nature designed, non processed diet. No more walkies for him!
> 
> Saltydogs, practicalfeeder and now realdog, I've missed you! :happy:


Annie will be so bummed when I tell her she can't go lure coursing anymore... sheesh, we are lucky she hasn't flopped over doing it the past year and a half....


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## Liz (Sep 27, 2010)

We got accused of road working a 6 month old puppy by a vet because of her physical condition and muscle tone. Should we tell her it's a sham? Poor baby - fit as an athlete and eating raw.


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## Caty M (Aug 13, 2010)

Liz- what do you mean by road working?

Seriously, the idea that raw food is terrible for performance is laughable. Wild dogs can follow their prey for DAYS sometimes, over tough terrain. They have survived as a species, and eat raw.. 

Especially laughable when you realize that the average 'raw fed' dog is in much better shape than kibble eaters. Most (low quality, like pro pac) kibble fed dogs look 'soft'.. raw fed dogs have great muscle tone.


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## kevin bradley (Aug 9, 2009)

bishopthesheltie said:


> Liz- what do you mean by road working?
> 
> Seriously, the idea that raw food is terrible for performance is laughable. Wild dogs can follow their prey for DAYS sometimes, over tough terrain. They have survived as a species, and eat raw..
> 
> Especially laughable when you realize that the average 'raw fed' dog is in much better shape than kibble eaters. Most (low quality, like pro pac) kibble fed dogs look 'soft'.. raw fed dogs have great muscle tone.


Bish,

Not a slam on Raw feeding, but you'd have to consider a lot of factors if making that type of assumption.

Just a guess---I'd say that 90%+ of raw feeders are pretty committed to all aspects of their Dogs health, including exercise. In fact, I'd guess most feeding Raw are close to fanatical about all aspects of caring for their Dogs.

Again, its more of a compliment to Raw feeders. To compare their Dogs with the average Dog confined to a chain and daily bowls of Old Roy wouldn't be fair. 

I've got a close friend with a Pit who eats Taste of the Wild(my direction for budget conscious feeders).... and he is a specimen to behold, much like the recent APBT picture posted out here. He has muscles and veins that make him look like he's on Steroids.


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## Liz (Sep 27, 2010)

I agree - we are committed to total health. We have been breeding collies for over twenty years and they have never had this body condition with out extensive exercise programs. Getting them ready to show was always a full time job. This girl goes in the ring next month. Her brother is halfway to his title. Honestly the most exercise these pups have gotten is play with each other in the yard and leisurely walks. 

Also, they were not being compared to the average pet dog locked onto a chain they are compared to dogs ready to show in conformation or working competition. It would be unfair to compare them with the average chained up pet because they are the pampered, well loved comapnions of our family.

Road work can be extensive biking, running or having the dog run behind a slow moving car to build muscle tone and define structure. If only you knew me, I am not into that much work.LOL


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## kevin bradley (Aug 9, 2009)

Liz,

What would you say the condition of your Raw Fed Dogs is compared to Dogs that are cared for in a similar way...but fed a high quality kibble?

I think you understood my main point.... most of you feeding raw do SO MANY positive things for your Dogs that there are many reasons why Raw fed Dogs might look so good. 

Just a 'guess.... I doubt many Dogs fed a raw diet sleep on anything short of a nice mattresses at night. Just a guess like I said


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

kevin bradley said:


> Liz,
> 
> What would you say the condition of your Raw Fed Dogs is compared to Dogs that are cared for in a similar way...but fed a high quality kibble?
> 
> ...


i'm also going to answer this.....

my dogs get about the same exercise on raw as they did on kibble and home cooking....they were not muscled then as they are now. even my almost twelve year old that we started around ten years of age....has a stomach droop but her legs are all muscle as are the muscles of her back...

the pug when we got him was four pounds lighter and cute. now he looks like a wrestler...his chest has filled out if that's even possible....he has a waist but he ripples as he moves....you can't see his ribs. he isn't that kind of dog....because he's all chest....but his skin is tight against his body...and he was not that way when he ate pedigree and then wellness when we got him and home cooking.....and then raw.


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## MollyWoppy (Mar 19, 2010)

You're funny Kevin... thats a nice funny btw, I can see where you are coming from. You know, I honestly haven't noticed much of a change in my dogs body shape/condition from when she was on Orijen and such. But, then again, she has always got a considerable amount of exercise, both on kibble and raw, Every year the vet comment on her muscle tone during our yearly visits. But, I have noticed that her coat is softer (it was always shiny) and her teeth and breath are better than mine , but really no noticeable difference in her body condition. 
I'm always thrilled to meet someone who feeds their dog Orijen (or similar), as most of people I've met seem to feed Pedigree, Beneful or Science Diet.
In my view, those who take the time to research and learn about dog foods, those who feed the best food their circumstances allow, even those who care enough to be a member of this forum - all these people are obviously devoted to their dogs health and well being considerably more than the average owner out there, no matter whether they feed kibble or raw.


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## Scarlett_O' (May 19, 2011)

magicre said:


> i'm also going to answer this.....
> 
> my dogs get about the same exercise on raw as they did on kibble and home cooking....they were not muscled then as they are now. even my almost twelve year old that we started around ten years of age....has a stomach droop but her legs are all muscle as are the muscles of her back...
> 
> the pug when we got him was four pounds lighter and cute. now he looks like a wrestler...his chest has filled out if that's even possible....he has a waist but he ripples as he moves....you can't see his ribs. he isn't that kind of dog....because he's all chest....but his skin is tight against his body...and he was not that way when he ate pedigree and then wellness when we got him and home cooking.....and then raw.


This is exactly how I would describe Brody, even with just a month of RAW feeding!! He is a TOTALLY changed Puggie!! He has muscle tone(I now hate going to see his Momma, full pug on high quality kibble, cause what I thought was a cute pug isnt any more!:tongue

And Leo...well Leo was a loved but fed olroy family companion with close to no exercise, he is now exercised regularly(by dog and human alike) and fed RAW....you can FEEL lean muscle EVERYWHERE!!  :happy:

And Im part of a BC forum where there is a thread of "Now THIS is a healthy BC" I can ALWAYS tell the PMR fed dogs, even from the barf/high quality kibble fed dogs...and I hope and pray that some day when Rhett looses his puppy-fuzz he will turn into THAT dog!!!!:biggrin:


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

kevin....it's interesting to me and not so much in a good or bad way, how orijen published this white paper...and then i look at the ingredients in their food; and, whilst i would feed it, i don't get or understand the ingredients.....such as marigolds and alfalfa, a known allergen to dogs...

this company is a dichotomy....they promote raw in the white paper, yet put all of these herbs and veggies and chicory and stuff in their food.....i don't get it.


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## Jynical (Jun 22, 2011)

Just busting in to ask a very poignant question and since I'm new here, now's the best time to ask: Are trolls raw fed? 

Ok, back to your regularly scheduled discussion. *rings bell*


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## Caty M (Aug 13, 2010)

I would say it's to attract the 'non dog savvy' consumer whilst still maintaining a food that is 80% carnivorous. The average person knows nothing of dog nutrition (cause chicken bones, even raw, spinter ya know:heh and if they see things like dandelions, alfalfa, they will probably think its healthier over a food that is JUST meat, bone, organ and a binder like potato starch. It's not needed, just a marketing tool, but probably does no harm.


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

bishopthesheltie said:


> I would say it's to attract the 'non dog savvy' consumer whilst still maintaining a food that is 80% carnivorous. The average person knows nothing of dog nutrition (cause chicken bones, even raw, spinter ya know:heh and if they see things like dandelions, alfalfa, they will probably think its healthier over a food that is JUST meat, bone, organ and a binder like potato starch. It's not needed, just a marketing tool, but probably does no harm.


i agree...i look at the ingredient list and it's as if a holistic naturopath chose the herbs to pass the proper minerals and vitamins along...


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## RawFedDogs (Jun 16, 2008)

Jynical said:


> Just busting in to ask a very poignant question and since I'm new here, now's the best time to ask: Are trolls raw fed?


You are relatively new here and there are several more new people so I will re-state this. We do not discuss trolls here nor do we accuse anyone of being one nor do we trash posts that WE THINK are made by trolls. Handling trolls is my job and the job of the other Moderators. No one elses. Failure to adhere to this rule can result in ban. I'm not fussing at you. Just informing you and the other newer members. Things can get pretty unpleasant when this rule is broken.


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## Jynical (Jun 22, 2011)

Thanks, Bill.  I understand completely.


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## dr tim (Mar 27, 2011)

Hey there;

What is a troll as in my neck of the woods it is the description of folks that live below the Mackinaw Bridge? We Yoopers (or transplanted trolls like myself) like to identify those folks as a game.

As to the previous threads, lots of good discussion. A bit of high blood pressure now and then as well; clears the arteries.

Yes, I think raw diets do work and have been trying some with patients that have some chronic skin issues at our hospital to see if they will work;I am keeping my hopes up and am optimistic. It can be a difficult diet for some to stay with past a few weeks as it is more time intensive than some can deal with. Does it help the dog? Sure it can. Are their others ways to "skin the cat" besides raw diet? I think so.

As to dogs being carnivores, there is scientific evidence at the biochemical level that shows their basic biochemistry is geared towrds processing carbohydrates at a much higher level than of a cat. It has also been shown that dogs have a much higher level of amylase production (20 times that of a cat) and amylase is used to break down starches. Is this proof they are a carnivore? It would lead me to think that way. As to teeth, some would argue that the back molars have mutliple surfaces like pure plant eating animals. I don't want to argue point by point on this with anyone, it is a strong
feeling many have on this site and let's leave it there.


I am not sure if there is anything I can really add to the discussion here, specifically. If there is, please ask and I can offer my thoughts, for what they are worth. Yes, many vets are not the best when it comes to nutrition and I am trying to turn that around somewhat as it begins at the vet school level. The mega companies and their money can peddle the influence on the young minds in school easily. They did with me and it hasn't changed at all. Well, my thoughts have changed 180 degrees. Vet's as a rule are smart rogue thinkers so maybe carefully placed wisdom can get them thinking when you pay your vet a visit with your pet. Don't hate em off the cuff, just give them a place to look and learn as they do have a strong interest in the welfare of animals. At least they should have.

Someone brought up salts and I am not really sure what you were asking.


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## RawFedDogs (Jun 16, 2008)

dr tim said:


> Hey there;
> 
> What is a troll as in my neck of the woods it is the description of folks that live below the Mackinaw Bridge? We Yoopers (or transplanted trolls like myself) like to identify those folks as a game.


Hey, Dr Tim and welcome back. In this context a troll is one who joins a discussion groups such as this one and makes contentious statements for no other reason than to raise the ire of the membership. This often leads to loss of temper and a lot of name calling and very heated arguments. This isn't tolerated in any discussion group I have been a part of. I tend to be a little more lenient with so called trolls than most and I come down hard on people who accuse others of being trolls because of their stand on an issue. I will give these so called trolls enough rope and when they get to the end of it, they are banned.



> Yes, I think raw diets do work and have been trying some with patients that have some chronic skin issues at our hospital to see if they will work;I am keeping my hopes up and am optimistic. It can be a difficult diet for some to stay with past a few weeks as it is more time intensive than some can deal with. Does it help the dog? Sure it can. Are their others ways to "skin the cat" besides raw diet? I think so.


There are a lot of conditions other than chronic skin issues that a raw diet can help with and prep time isn't a big deal once a raw diet has been fed a couple of months. Once a routine is worked out and suppliers have been lined up, feeding raw is very little more time consuming than feeding kibble.



> As to dogs being carnivores, there is scientific evidence at the biochemical level that shows their basic biochemistry is geared towrds processing carbohydrates at a much higher level than of a cat. It has also been shown that dogs have a much higher level of amylase production (20 times that of a cat) and amylase is used to break down starches. Is this proof they are a carnivore? It would lead me to think that way. As to teeth, some would argue that the back molars have mutliple surfaces like pure plant eating animals. I don't want to argue point by point on this with anyone, it is a strong feeling many have on this site and let's leave it there.


I would be interested in knowing the level of amylase in dogs compared to non-controversial omnivores such as humans. It takes more than the presence of a little amylase in an animal to make it an omnivore but of course you know that. :smile:



> Someone brought up salts and I am not really sure what you were asking.


I think I was the one questioning the salt level in Propac dog food and being very suspicious because its listed at 3 different kinds of salt. It contains Salt, Potassium Chloride(also a salt), Choline Chloride(yet another salt). It reminds me of the companies whose food contains both white rice, brown rice, and ground rice. If all the rices were combined they would be the #1 ingredient but because they are broken out that way, they may be the 3rd, 5th, and 7th ingredients making it APPEAR that there is more meat and less rice than is actually there. So if all 3 of those salts were listed as salt, how high up the ingredients list would it be. Also why would you want to add salt to a dog food anyway?


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## kevin bradley (Aug 9, 2009)

Tim is right on... the Up'ers or Yoopers(u pick) like to call us Trolls. 

My old boss was from the U.P. and he was the first to refer to me as a "troll" because I lived below the bridge. 

I would usually counter him by saying that 99% of Michiganders must be "Trolls" because no one lives in the U.P. ahahahahahaa.

Just funnin' ya Tim.


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## kevin bradley (Aug 9, 2009)

dr tim said:


> I am not sure if there is anything I can really add to the discussion here, specifically. If there is, please ask and I can offer my thoughts, for what they are worth. Yes, many vets are not the best when it comes to nutrition and I am trying to turn that around somewhat as it begins at the vet school level. The mega companies and their money can peddle the influence on the young minds in school easily. They did with me and it hasn't changed at all. Well, my thoughts have changed 180 degrees. Vet's as a rule are smart rogue thinkers so maybe carefully placed wisdom can get them thinking when you pay your vet a visit with your pet. Don't hate em off the cuff, just give them a place to look and learn as they do have a strong interest in the welfare of animals. At least they should have.
> 
> Someone brought up salts and I am not really sure what you were asking.



Tim,

Specifically, what would be some of the better foods available to the average consumer... someone feeding dry food, in your opinion?

Really curious what you think on this.


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## PDXdogmom (Jun 30, 2010)

I especially appreciate posts #51-58 in this thread (and a few others). No matter what your perspective, they are a good example of people with varying viewpoints willing to exchange thoughts and ask questions in a non-inflammatory manner. I also appreciate the moderators who don't fan the flames so to speak.


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## dr tim (Mar 27, 2011)

Boy, a loaded question.

First, the salt Q. "Salt" as we call it is sodium and chloride. Dogs have requirements for both, thus it is included. Is it in some of the other ingredients already? Yes, but there are levels that one tries to assure are in each diet, thus it is included. Can it be overused to enhance taste? Heck yes. Choline chloride and Potassium chloride are needed elements in a chemical form that is considered a "salt", but not like table salt (sodium chloride). Can't add them all ttogether to see how much "salt" is in the diet.

AS to brands on the market that I consider OK, there are some and I am sure to miss some but I am assuming you are asking for foods that are affordable by most folks. Canidae was good when it came out as I saw the difference in dogs on it. Wellness is ok, Annamaet is very good, Natural balance is OK. Origen is pretty pricey. I can't go through them all.

One very important thing to note with foods is where it is manufactured. I wouldn't use a food made at a ******* plant, for instance. Too many dog deaths in the past with bad ingredients (corn fungus/aflatoxin deal) a few years back and there have been some recalls since. ******* produces for many on their custom label side of things, so do your research. Some companies will not release where they are made and that is a red flag to me.

You can look at different ratings sites that may help. The Whole Dog Journal does a nice rating each year that I have followed over time to see who is trying to make a quality food. 



I decided to make my own because I thought, and still do, there is a huge gaping hole in quality dry dog and cat food diets and the big companies are slow to move and have little incentive to do so. Little guys can be quicker, I guess.


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

back in the day, dr. tim, you would be considered a wealthy man if you owned a salt mine....it was like gold is today....it was rarely used because no one could afford it....

that has nothing to do with what we are discussing, but salt in three forms in food, anyone's food, seems like overkill and worse, un necessary for the dog or humans for that matter...

in my opinion and based on my own background....i have to say that the only good salt does is make me thirsty as it would with my dogs when they ate food with salt in it....and not just kibble either...for whatever reason, when i was home cooking, i thought salt was necessary because of the sodium and chloride....but i'm coming around to the thinking that no one needs salt...

there are plenty of ways to get those two ingredients into our bodies and our dogs because they are essential minerals....without using the salt version, don't you think?


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## kevin bradley (Aug 9, 2009)

appreciate the response, Tim but essentially, you said that Annamet is the only good Dog food available other than yours?

I want to make sure I read that correctly.... Canidae WAS good, the others are just ok and Orijen costs alot. I'm honestly not trying to be a jerk, I just want to make sure I understand your response. thanks


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## Gwen (Jul 7, 2011)

I really like Origen and Arcana we have had all our dogs on that food since they were puppies and they have always had great skin and glowing coats. (Except for Titan, he has major allergies to the outdoors but that's another discussion) Our trusted vet tried pushing Iams on us and we said no way because one of the first ingredients was cellouse (i don't know if I spelled it right) but basically its a filler and could be paper. There is no way I'm giving that to my dog.
Recently I have been tossing around the idea of home made meals, that way I know exactly what they are ingesting and I can control it.

Anyway, I would recommend Origen to anybody.


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## dr tim (Mar 27, 2011)

I think you have to look at your dog and see how they respond to a certain food. How the label reads is one thing, doing some research on the food, what is in it, who makes it and their history, can the label claims be backed up, etc.

I know you are looking for specific names of foods but you guys are mentioning some good ones often. If you want to send me a list of possibles in an email I may be more specific, but I just don't like to appear as if I am slamming a specific food as that is not my style.

Find out where they are made is my first advice,a minimum of 26/16 and higher, lots of omega 3 fish oil and a low ash content. Multiple protein sources a must.


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