# Live prey...



## CavePaws (Jan 25, 2011)

Question: This is geared towards my cat but I also just want to know your opinion. I have a kibble junkie cat who loves canned food...he will not eat ANY raw. He barely ever licks. Most of the time he snuffs me and walks off flicking his tail. I am transitioning him into being an indoor cat completely. My other cats are and eat raw and I want the benefit of having less smelly letterboxes - which raw really helps with. 

I know my indoor outdoor cat will eat live prey. He is a big hunter..which is part of the reason I won't let him outside any more. He regularly killed and ate small animals, leaving the parts he didn't want on the porch. I feel it is wrong for him to kill and eat wild life and dangerous to kill and eat rats and mice... And, I really really love him and don't want him to be hurt and I'm tired of my house mates letting him outside.

Being that I really really love him, I want him to eat raw. I don't want him eating canned food, or kibble, pre-made raw, anything commercial really. So...I was thinking, people feed their carnivorous and omnivorous reptiles live prey all the time. Why would it be wrong of me to give Liam, my difficult cat, live prey.

I'm trying to wrap my head around this. I love animals and everything... But my cat just can't keep eating kibble and canned food. Obviously you can tell how I feel about this...

Is this wrong in your eyes?


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## Sprocket (Oct 4, 2011)

I don't see the harm in it if he kills if swiftly and doesn't bat the poor mouse around for hours.


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## creek817 (Feb 18, 2012)

I don't see anything wrong with it, as long as you can handle it. Although, to be honest, I don't see what's wrong with him killing and eating wildlife either. That's nature's way. But, I do agree about being dangerous eating rats and mice, in case they've been poisoned.

I definitely don't think it's wrong to feed him live prey though, especially if that's the only way you can get him to eat raw. Not sure how you would be able to do it, without ending up with mice/rats running around your house haha. Maybe you could feed him in a fish tank?


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## GoingPostal (Sep 5, 2011)

It took my cat chasing a mouse to decide she wanted to eat them, I breed them for feeders and until a couple escaped one day she paid no attention. Once she was eating them live it was easy to switch her to eating them already dead which is way less messy. Have you tried frozen thawed whole prey with the cat before?


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## Elliehanna (Jan 16, 2012)

I don't see anything wrong with it, but I would go with the "eat raw or starve" mentality instead, only feed the cat what you want it to eat and if he is hungry enough he will start eating.

after someone me butchering and feeding rabbits to Goren turned into me throwing baby live rabbits at him to chomp (word travels fast at old jobs doesn't it...mostly when its walmart) to my BIL I would probably not mention any live feedings to any family or friends.


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## Dude and Bucks Mamma (May 14, 2011)

creek817 said:


> Although, to be honest, I don't see what's wrong with him killing and eating wildlife either. That's nature's way. But, I do agree about being dangerous eating rats and mice, in case they've been poisoned.


That is how I feel about it. He is a predator, is he not? Then why is it wrong for him to kill things and eat them? It is no different than any other predator. 

On another note, the fact that some of the rodents could be toxic if others are leaving poisons out for them is enough reason to keep him from eating the wildlife. 

If you didn't live somewhere with neighbors I wouldn't see an issue. We plan on possibly having some barn cats to take care of any rodent problems when we buy property. I am not opposed to feeding a practiced cat live prey if that's what it takes to feed raw. This could very well be a huge step towards being able to feed dead animals to him down the road.


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## SonyaBullyDog (Jun 6, 2011)

I'm sorry, but I will have to disagree. I will never support any type of "live feeding" in a captive situation. It is one thing when animals hunt in the wild, but completely another to place a terrified creature in front of your pet and allow your pet to kill it. 

Would you feed live kittens to your dog? I don't understand why we are ok with feeding "lesser" animals such as mice or rats, but we become so disgusted and call people cruel for feeding their dogs live cats. 

It seems to me there should be plenty of other options. Even if all else failed, I would choose wet cat food over such animal cruelty any day. 

P.s. I had many pet rats growing up, and they are more social and loving than most cats and even dogs. In my mind nothing justifies such cruelty to any animal.


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## Maxy24 (Mar 5, 2011)

I personally think it's awful. Cats don't kill swiftly, they torture the animal and slowly exhaust and maim it to death usually. Reptiles kill much faster. We had a mouse in the house, the cats saw it and started smacking it around and throwing it through the air. Tucker (dog) walked into the room chased it down, shook it and it was dead, then he ate it, the cats would have kept going all day and probably would have just left it on my bed (like the last time one of them got a mouse in the house). I think it's funny so many people here think it's okay and no one on my cat forum (also has a large raw feeding population) does. This isn't the wild, your cat doesn't need live prey to survive. I don't think intentionally torturing any animal is okay, no matter how small. I have no problem feeding humanely killed animals, but letting the cat do the killing is not humane.


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## Elliehanna (Jan 16, 2012)

I didn't think about how cats torture (I am allergic to them so don't have them and curse at the people that let them run loose since they make me get sick...) anyhow since I forgot about that then no its not ok to give live to a cat in my opinion


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## CavePaws (Jan 25, 2011)

Alright, well ive seen him kill things and he doesn't torture them. They are dead pretty quickly...plus, I would be present to stop any suffering...I dont think there would be suffering considering he would be killing to eat, since he would not have access to other food.

Further more you can't do tough love with a cat.


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## kady05 (Jul 29, 2011)

I could never do that, ethically. Would rather just feed canned food if they're that opposed to raw. Why are you opposed to pre-made? With a cat, it wouldn't be that expensive, and maybe if he got the "hang" of eating pre-made, you could transition him to more whole foods?

Agree that you do have to be careful with the tough love thing with a cat, since they can so easily develop fatty liver disease if they aren't eating. BUT my own cats went 2 days without eating much of anything when I moved and they were just fine, so I think you could hold out a bit with him if needed.


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## whiteleo (Sep 7, 2008)

I don't live in a busy neighborhood at all and my boy kitty who I've tried to wean onto raw won't have a thing to do with it. But, he has always been a great hunter, I will continue to let him hunt to get those wild nutrients, he never stays out overnight and he is such a love!


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## CavePaws (Jan 25, 2011)

Ive tried pre-made...and whole dead prey


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## CavePaws (Jan 25, 2011)

Also, my neighborhood is busy. :/ lots of danger for a cat outside.


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## MollyWoppy (Mar 19, 2010)

I'm thinking of doing something with Windy, I don't know if its right to even think of it, but I need so badly for her to eat raw (or canned) because of her health.
I have this toy call Da Bird. It's a 3' stick with a long string and feathers or a fake mouse on the end. You can do all sorts of things with it that mimic bird's or mice in the wild, Windy will chase and stalk it forever.
I'm thinking of locking the husband in his office, then tying a dead thawed out feeder mouse to the string of Da Bird and letting Wind stalk and run after it for a while, then at the end let her catch it and see if the prey eating thing kicks in. 
Personally, I couldn't feed live prey, that was brought home to me not long ago when Mol and Wind teamed up to catch a big mouse and by the time I got to them, this poor mouse was up on his hindlegs looking at them, begging for his life. 
It's so hard when you are trying to give them the best of both worlds, when all you are trying to do is try and make them fulfilled as the animal they are.


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## Tobi (Mar 18, 2011)

If he kills it swiftly, or even not so swiftly I'd say go for it, such is the chain of life, we have to understand that things die so we can live... they don't like to meet the cow but they wanna eat the burger.. same with cats and dogs, there is no such thing as "humane" in nature.


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## GoingPostal (Sep 5, 2011)

Lol you have to love some of these responses. Please go hang out in a slaughterhouse or mass breeding facility and tell me that's humane. I guess it's ok to feed stuff that's already dead since you don't have to see the animal stressed or suffering? I let my cat and one of my ferrets kill their own mice on occasion, my snake has always eaten live and it's just as fast and effective as me gassing them or snapping their neck. They aren't terrified and aren't being tortured or played with. This isn't the wild and I don't need to go out and hunt for my meat either but I do.


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## lauren43 (Feb 6, 2011)

I don't know. This is tough for me. There was a time when I'd say I'm completely against live feeding, because it could be torturous for the prey and sometimes even the predator gets hurt in the process (esp large snakes that eat large rats)...

I much prefer the animal to be humanely killed before being fed to another animal. On the other hand, no we are not in the wild and these animals are our pets, but is it necessary or not? I honestly don't have the answer. I had rats for many years, they are fantastic pets, are extremely smart and really really learn to love their owners...so why is it ok to feed pets to pets? Then at the same time, these domestic pets still have the same "wiring" if you will as prey, fight or flight.


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## CavePaws (Jan 25, 2011)

Well. It's completely and utterly natural. He is an obligate carnivore...

I can't wrap my head around feeding him canned and kibble the rest of his life. 

For those of us here who aren't particularly careful about where we get our meat; the meat you ate for breakfast, lunch, or dinner, was most likely suffering somewhere along the way to your plate.

It is particularly hard for me to swallow this...I've always had a problem with live prey since I got my reptiles. However, just because it is hard for me to watch something die, doesn't mean I need to deprive my cat of the most healthy diet he could have.

Nature intended for our dogs to be out in the wild killing rabbits and deer too. So, if your dogs life depended upon it, would you feed them live rabbits?

I would without a second thought.

If my pet would eat nothing but live prey, that is what I would feed it... Which is why I've made the decision to try switching Liam over to raw starting with live prey and see if I can transfer over to whole frozen prey.


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## Tobi (Mar 18, 2011)

Whatever works Kelly :thumb: I can't see any difference between locking pigs in a room for us to slaughter, and putting a mouse in a caged area for your cat do do it in, I hope that he starts eating raw, i'm sure that frozen would be much easier to stomach if he stops being so picky lol!


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## xchairity_casex (Oct 8, 2011)

If my cats ever actually ate the mice they used to catch, i might try this approach but my cats have always been mouser, but have never eaten them...


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## Chocx2 (Nov 16, 2009)

I have a big bird feeder on the side of my house, all the doves eat all day, the cats in the neighborhood prowl in the bushes near and kill the birds sometimes. It kinda makes me made about the cats, but the coyotes kill the cats, I think its like a cycle of life. You can't stop everything. 

I did clear the ferns around the feeder so the birds would be able to see better but what ever. My husband takes a air gun and kills the rats, cycle of life...


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## Makovach (Jan 24, 2012)

I see no issue with it

To the comment about feeding kittens to a dog, Why would you do that? Carnivores are supposed to eat herbivores, not other carnivores. Predator is supposed to eat prey. Thats how it works.

I have two pet rats. My dogs don't touch them. I don't think I would feed live rats to my dogs because I don't want them getting ideas. I used to have about 4 corn snakes and a few ball pythons. They ate live rats, mice, bunnies, chicks ect. If my cat Sparta would find that one got loose, he would kill and eat it. Sparta ate a 90% raw diet. He always ate live prey. to me it made no difference if he was catching it on his own, or I was giving it to him. He never played with his food. It might have taken him a minute, but he would kill it and eat it. 

My dogs have caught and ate birds, fish, groundhogs and wild rabbits. They never killed them, just started eating them. Do I see a problem with this? No. Its life, its nature.


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## CavePaws (Jan 25, 2011)

Thank you for the encouragement...I think I am going to let him get nice and hungry, then put him in the bathtub with a mouse.

I really want him to eat raw.

If Windy will go for it, Penny, by all means do it. I already know Liam won't...I tried to get him to play with a dead one, even cut it open for him. No go!


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## Tobi (Mar 18, 2011)

CavePaws said:


> Thank you for the encouragement...I think I am going to let him get nice and hungry, then put him in the bathtub with a mouse.
> 
> I really want him to eat raw.
> 
> If Windy will go for it, Penny, by all means do it. I already know Liam won't...I tried to get him to play with a dead one, even cut it open for him. No go!


We used to find carcasses all over outside, birds, mice, you name it all the internals and most of the muscles were eaten off of them, heaven forbid we buy mice for his little arse and cut them open for them, he just wouldn't have it... i even witnessed him carrying a 3-4 foot black snake across our driveway once, but he hated raw food from us!!! :lol:


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## CavePaws (Jan 25, 2011)

Im commencing my plan tonight.


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## Dude and Bucks Mamma (May 14, 2011)

Let us know how it goes


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## CavePaws (Jan 25, 2011)

So. My plan did not go so well. My cat Liam looked at me like I was nuts when I presented him with the mouse. Which was ridiculous. Maybe he wasn't hungry enough.

The kittens killed and ate quickly.

And the terrier was flipping out wanting to rat. No I did not give him live prey, though I assume his killing would have been so much quicker than any of the cats...he's killed a couple of chickens and makes quick work of small animals. >:|


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## Tobi (Mar 18, 2011)

CavePaws said:


> So. My plan did not go so well. My cat Liam looked at me like I was nuts when I presented him with the mouse. Which was ridiculous. Maybe he wasn't hungry enough.
> 
> The kittens killed and ate quickly.
> 
> And the terrier was flipping out wanting to rat. No I did not give him live prey, though I assume his killing would have been so much quicker than any of the cats...he's killed a couple of chickens and makes quick work of small animals. >:|


:lol: well Liam is picky! did you give a mouse to each kitten as well? how cool glad they enjoyed it! nothing better than an animal getting to do exactly what it was meant for.


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## CavePaws (Jan 25, 2011)

Ya he is a picky little jerk. I keep telling him, no canned food, no kibble, no tuna...He needs to eat some raw food. :| I'm sure he'll try eventually. Being deprived from the outdoors and from other sources of food today might do the trick. I'm going to try again tonight...The things one does to get their pet to eat raw. O_O'


But each kitten got a mouse. I didn't want to give Liam one and let the kittens just watch him. I say kittens, but they're like at least over a year now...Were feral, supposed to be my fosters, but they're still pretty wild...not many people like wild cats! But, those mice were dead and down the hatch pretty quick. It's crazy seeing cats eat whole prey!

I just seriously can't tell you how much I wish Liam would've eaten some mouse last night. -___-


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## GoingPostal (Sep 5, 2011)

CavePaws said:


> So. My plan did not go so well. My cat Liam looked at me like I was nuts when I presented him with the mouse. Which was ridiculous:|


That sounds like the look I got when I tried to trick mine into eating a gerbil, she caught it, then realized it wasn't a mouse, glared at me and let it go. Thankfully my ferrets aren't nearly so picky.


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## CavePaws (Jan 25, 2011)

That's pretty cool...are they efficient?


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## InkedMarie (Sep 9, 2011)

For those who approve of live prey for cats, do you approve of live prey for dogs too?


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## GoingPostal (Sep 5, 2011)

CavePaws said:


> That's pretty cool...are they efficient?


Only one is, I had one other who grasped the concept but was more concerned with eating his than killing anymore, my female that I let dispatch her own mice sometimes kills them very swiftly and then piles them up nicely in the corner of the tub. If I only need one or two mice dead I kill them myself, if I need a lot dead I use CO2 so just depends. 

As far as live prey for dogs, I wouldn't no, for the same reason I wouldn't allow my cat or ferret to kill say a rat or larger rodent. Dog sized prey would be like rabbits or chickens and they are better equipped and sized to cause damage. I know sighthound people who hunt rabbits with them, there are plenty of dogs created for and who still do vermin control but most people wouldn't want to encourage their dogs to have aggression to small furry things.


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## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

I would love for my dog to kill the possum living in the back yard. But he has fallen in love with it instead.

Cats are decimating the songbird population. for all you folks who think it is so wonderful to let your cats roam and kill stuff, and that feral cat populations cause no harm, perhaps you should read this.



> A study released earlier this month looked at gray catbirds nesting in three Washington DC suburbs. It found that, among predators, the common household cat, felis catus, is public enemy No. 1 for songbirds.
> 
> *Our warm and furry friends were responsible for nearly half of the bird deaths observed. That's more than all other predators, such as hawks and snakes, put together. *The study, conducted by researchers at Towson University in Maryland and the Smithsonian Institution, was published in the Journal of Ornithology


The inside story on cats

I don't know about throwing a cat a mouse in the bathtub. I've never done it and honestly I'm not too crazy about the way cats torture things but I'd rather have a mouse in the bathtub than a cat on the loose in the neighborhood.


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## Kat (Jul 12, 2011)

I think it depends on the cat, but I will agree most cats do seem to like to torture their prey before eating it. At an old house my family and I used to live in, we lived by a field and mice always managed to get in somehow. My cat was about 1 year old at the time, and she would watch/stalk the mouse for a good 30-60 minutes, then when she couldnt take it anymore she would pounce and kill it instantly. She killed atleast half a dozen mice that I saw and never once tortured them.


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## Dude and Bucks Mamma (May 14, 2011)

InkedMarie said:


> For those who approve of live prey for cats, do you approve of live prey for dogs too?


If I had a dog who wouldn't eat dead and it would prove a valuable stepping stone towards feeding dead then yes, I do. 

However, I wouldn't feed it just for fun. I don't know how quickly my dogs would be able to kill an animal and, because they eat dead animals I have no need to feed live to find out.


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## CavePaws (Jan 25, 2011)

I know Preston plays with is food. Indi kills it by thrashing then starts eating immediately...Puck terriers hard, thrashes, and crunches up, and it's not dead enough until he's pulled all the insides out - does not eat his killed food ever. Watching Puck rat is in a way, awesome. He does what he is meant to do. I don't let him do it for fun. He rats on our property where there are tons of small animals...mice and rats especially, they will burrow in our sheds and trailers and chew wires which pose a fire hazard. Indi catches squirrels and rabbits on a regular basis. I don't make her stop any more. I used to, but she earned her kill in my opinion.

I would never, ever, ever let an animal die slowly. That is wrong on so many levels. I'm at the point now where I could slaughter my own food and not feel bad about it. I'd rather slaughter animals I know had a great life, were fed nutritious foods, and give them a quick death than contribute even more to factory farming...Part of the reason I gave up all meat that I, family, or friends did not slaughter themselves...I don't eat dairy any more either. Anyway, the point is, I'm not an evil person. I want my cat to eat raw because he is an obligate carnivore. On top of that, what Nickie posted about domesticated cats killing wild life...Ya, not cool with me at all - dangerous and wrong imo.


PLUS - I am only doing live prey until Liam can transition...Like Nickie said, would rather have a mouse in the bathtub than tons of dead wildlife on my porch.


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## Vilebeast (Jul 3, 2012)

I've hunted with dogs my whole life. Everything from rabbits to ducks to deer and boar. I use a catch dog, he runs it down grabs and holds it till i get there to end it. If you want a dog to catch something, you need the right type of dog (mentally speaking here) and a decent cut vest (protection gear). I would not let any of my animals run free without me being able to watch what happens, but I'll set my dog on a 300plus pound boar. Now any decent catch dog, would dispatch anything smaller than a deer before you could get your hands on it. Also my dog is not critter friendly, likes dogs just not anything else.

I wouldn't teach a dog to kill things because they will go for the stomach or the neck and I dont want my dog eating anything till i have a chance to look it over.


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## CavePaws (Jan 25, 2011)

What kind of dog do you have? I'm familiar with going for the gut and neck. I have a dog who hates other dogs - other than dogs in her own pack. :/ 

I don't hunt with my dogs. It's that simple. I don't let them go after boar and deer. They go after rabbits and other small rodents. Indi MIGHT go after a fox if I wasn't there to call her off...simply because it would look similar to a dog to her. Anything remotely similar to a dog isn't okay with her. But my dogs do most of their catching on a large piece of property that is almost all forest and fenced in. They don't run around willy nilly on trails or anywhere dogs or deer would be. Either way they all have a good recall, but that's beside the point. They're never loose otherwise, without supervision. Though, again, I have good faith in their recalls...just not other peoples - most of the time.


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## Vilebeast (Jul 3, 2012)

Good on you! He is a pit mix of some kind, got him from a shelter. If they have a high prey drive, train them going for the ears, best bet for them and you.


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## Noodlesmadison (Sep 18, 2011)

GoingPostal said:


> That sounds like the look I got when I tried to trick mine into eating a gerbil, she caught it, then realized it wasn't a mouse, glared at me and let it go. Thankfully my ferrets aren't nearly so picky.


You are feeding your ferrets live gerbils?


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## GoingPostal (Sep 5, 2011)

Noodlesmadison said:


> You are feeding your ferrets live gerbils?


No I don't have gerbils anymore, just was given 8 (including 5 babies) to get rid of and fed them to my ferrets because the cat wouldn't eat them. I don't remember if the ferret killed the gerbils or if I snapped their necks, it was a couple years ago. They eat a lot of whole prey, mice, rats, quail, rabbits, guinea pigs, most I order from rodent pro, the mice I breed.


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## Tobi (Mar 18, 2011)

InkedMarie said:


> For those who approve of live prey for cats, do you approve of live prey for dogs too?


Yes, and If I knew that Tobi would kill it and not play with it for an hour i'd feed him live as well, we have an abundance of wild rabbit in our rural area, and it would be a great trapped food source, as well as live chicken, he's killed one but i think luck came into play about where he grabbed it and killed it nearly instantly... on the neck... severing the head.


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## GrantThomas (Jul 19, 2012)

I registered recently just to share my thoughts - it is completely unethical. You're putting the mouse in an unnecessary position, inducing terror to it and causing it pain. How is that necessary when there are more humane feeding options, why put the animal through all that stress in the first place?



GoingPostal said:


> Lol you have to love some of these responses. Please go hang out in a slaughterhouse or mass breeding facility and tell me that's humane. I guess it's ok to feed stuff that's already dead since you don't have to see the animal stressed or suffering?


Two wrongs make a right now?

What does a slaughterhouse have anything to do with the issue at hand? Yes, I've been to a slaughterhouse before - the animals are killed quickly and humanely. They are routinely inspected and there are strict laws and procedures in regards to the slaughter process (at least where I live, anyway). Yes, I am aware some slaughterhouses might have shoddy practices, but just because some cows are killed in a brutal fashion by some nutjob employees who aren't following responsible procedures doesn't mean it's OK to chuck a terrified animal straight to your pet. Some animals, for example, snakes, need live food sometimes because they won't eat anything else. But most don't. A cat or dog certainly _does not_ need live food. Live feeding your cat and dog is almost the equivalent of a canned hunt - a bloodsport.

Yes, it's ok to feed stuff that's already dead (after all, the point is to minimise suffering and minimise any risks to the pet). You're making the grand assumption that said animal was suffering in the first place, when you have no way of knowing. Most rodents are euthanised by CO2 or cervical dislocation (it is cheap, easy, quick and relatively painless), and that's a hell of a lot more humane than giving it live to a predatory animal.

---

Ok, back to the OP: So far the argument I've seen on this thread supporting live feeding are weak. Let's take a look at some of them:

"Oh we kill animals in slaughterhouses anyway" - how is that an argument? 
"It's natural" - you're keeping a pet, in an environment that is not its natural habitat and the point is moot anyway because said animals have been domesticated for thousands of years. 
"It's healthy" - live rodents can contain parasites, as well as bite and scratch your pet.
"It's enrichment" - give it a toy, play with it, etc. There are many ways to enrich an animal's life without giving it a live mouse to chomp on.

Let's take a look at the moral implications - you are introducing a domesticated mouse into an unfamiliar environment. It is not a wild animal, it will have little idea how to evade a predator. The animal will be completely terrified, of course, and will suffer the pain of being crunched alive. Or possibly played with by the cat, which they are notorious for. If you really cared for the welfare of the 'feeder' animal as you had claimed, you would not subject it to something like this. You have many, many options to feed and enrich your pet, yet somehow you find it necessary to put a live animal through all of that? That, in my book, is being unnecessarily cruel. The people who see nothing wrong with this practice, IMO, should think about it a little more deeply instead of throwing out natural fallacy arguments. Perhaps you'll change your mind when you hear about someone throwing a kitten to a pit pull for it to "play around with and eat" because it's "natural" for the dog to hone such instincts. To be frank, some things in nature are best left there. Some people here seem to be casually dressing up this live feeding business as not a cruel activity, but no matter how you dress it up, it _is_ cruelty, because you're inducing suffering to an animal that could completely be avoided yet at the same time, reach the same conclusion of feeding your pet.

I might get blasted for this, but have at it. I'll be more than happy to shoot down any of these arguments that support an arguably barbaric practice.

However, this statement just does me in:



> *They aren't terrified* and aren't being tortured or played with.


You have _got_ to be joking.



Tobi said:


> If he kills it swiftly, or even not so swiftly I'd say go for it, such is the chain of life, we have to understand that things die so we can live... they don't like to meet the cow but they wanna eat the burger.. same with cats and dogs, there is no such thing as "humane" in nature.


It is not "the chain of life". It is a human interfering with this process, because the cat in question would not have obtained it otherwise. The whole process is artificial - a man-made construct. You say there's no such thing as "humane" in nature, and you very well may be right, but that word still exists as far as humans are concerned. Unlike a lion chasing down a eating a gazelle even while it's still alive, human beings have the choice of how animals under their care are treated, and how they die. Though I can see that you care very little about the welfare of the mouse because you're condoning a practice where it might not go so swiftly (ie. the animal will be suffering more than it has to). That leads me to believe that a lot of people who condone live feeding like this don't care much about the suffering of the animal, and chalk it down to "it's nature" to justify their behaviour.

You will note that zoos do not feed live animals to their big cats - there are good reasons why, moral and practical. The same could be said about feeding a mouse to a cat. It is the same in principle.



GoingPostal said:


> No I don't have gerbils anymore, just was given 8 (including 5 babies) to get rid of and fed them to my ferrets because the cat wouldn't eat them. I don't remember if the ferret killed the gerbils or if I snapped their necks, it was a couple years ago. They eat a lot of whole prey, mice, rats, quail, rabbits, guinea pigs, most I order from rodent pro, the mice I breed.


Oh how very nice of you. Feeding them to your ferrets (live perhaps, even though a ferret absolutely does not require it)... this is _after_ you tried giving them to your cats? That's not a humane way to euthanise an "unwanted" animal.

You could have taken the animals to your local humane society or shelter, and they might have been given homes. And please don't try to justify it by citing shoddy slaughterhouse practices, that's not an excuse. That kind of reasoning reminds me of when a child gets in trouble by the teacher in class, and uses the "but the other kids are doing it too" defence.



Makovach said:


> I used to have about 4 corn snakes and a few ball pythons. They ate live rats, mice, bunnies, chicks ect. If my cat Sparta would find that one got loose, he would kill and eat it. Sparta ate a 90% raw diet. He always ate live prey. to me it made no difference if he was catching it on his own, or I was giving it to him. He never played with his food. It might have taken him a minute, but he would kill it and eat it.


Did you ever consider frozen/thawed (pre-killed)? Something as big as a rabbit can cause damage, especially if they are wriggling around - their claws and teeth can be damaging weapons. So - unless you had _no choice_ to feed live, then why do it? I'm not judging you, I am just wondering.


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## GoingPostal (Sep 5, 2011)

So you joined just for this post? Not really sure that's allowed. Lots of people consider it unethical to have mass breeding facilities to supply our meat, some people consider it unethical that I go out and hunt/fish, lots of people consider it unethical to eat meat at all. Everyone's got their own opinion and I'm certainly not forcing anyone else to live feed and perhaps you missed where I also CO2 and CD my mice on a regular basis, I know exactly how they die and how long it takes and trust me, they don't seem any happier about me snapping their necks than having it done by a ferret.


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## DaneMama (Jun 27, 2008)

GrantThomas hasn't broken any rules just by joining up to respond to this one post. It seems we've got another good person who's joined the group who can debate without making personal attacks or getting foul expressing their opinion. 

This is a touchy subject, people are bound to have strong opinions. We are all entitled to them. Just keep it clean.


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## GrantThomas (Jul 19, 2012)

GoingPostal said:


> So you joined just for this post? Not really sure that's allowed.


Not allowed to what? Post my first post on something you might not necessarily agree with?



> Lots of people consider it unethical to have mass breeding facilities to supply our meat, some people consider it unethical that I go out and hunt/fish, lots of people consider it unethical to eat meat at all. Everyone's got their own opinion and I'm certainly not forcing anyone else to live feed and perhaps you missed where I also CO2 and CD my mice on a regular basis, I know exactly how they die and how long it takes and trust me, they don't seem any happier about me snapping their necks than having it done by a ferret.


I just questioned the necessity of live feeding, and made the point about why slaughterhouse conditions isn't particularly a good defence of it. Regardless, a swift snap on the neck is a humane death... a ferret can take longer than that.

Thank you Dane, hopefully we can generate a good discussion regardless of our views.


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## GoingPostal (Sep 5, 2011)

No, wasn't sure if it was allowed to join this forum just to stir up crap, most don't allow that kind of bs. 

As far as a swift snap to the neck, yeah, that's exactly what my ferret does and having done it myself as well there is a risk either way of missing or not doing it well, it happens. If she wasn't an effective killer and quicker than me I wouldn't allow it. The discussion was done and over with for awhile btw and I think most of your arguments had already been covered but by all means have at it, I'll continue my cruel and inhumane ways. 
l


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## Tobi (Mar 18, 2011)

> It is not "the chain of life". It is a human interfering with this process, because the cat in question would not have obtained it otherwise. The whole process is artificial - a man-made construct. You say there's no such thing as "humane" in nature, and you very well may be right, but that word still exists as far as humans are concerned. Unlike a lion chasing down a eating a gazelle even while it's still alive, human beings have the choice of how animals under their care are treated, and how they die. Though I can see that you care very little about the welfare of the mouse because you're condoning a practice where it might not go so swiftly (ie. the animal will be suffering more than it has to). That leads me to believe that a lot of people who condone live feeding like this don't care much about the suffering of the animal, and chalk it down to "it's nature" to justify their behaviour.
> 
> You will note that zoos do not feed live animals to their big cats - there are good reasons why, moral and practical. The same could be said about feeding a mouse to a cat. It is the same in principle.


Your opinion is noted, but mine will stay otherwise. Our cat constantly hunted, brought animals back to the porch and ate them... it happens whether or not we interfere with it. How dare you say that i care very little for the mouse, you don't know me, you don't know anything about me. I simply understand that the very "nature" of nature is death, to feed another.

Zoos... feed kibble more often than not, so please, tell me... what do zoos really know about morality and practicality.


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## Makovach (Jan 24, 2012)

GrantThomas said:


> Did you ever consider frozen/thawed (pre-killed)? Something as big as a rabbit can cause damage, especially if they are wriggling around - their claws and teeth can be damaging weapons. So - unless you had _no choice_ to feed live, then why do it? I'm not judging you, I am just wondering.


My snakes won't eat dead food. Not even if you used tongs to make it move, They wouldn't touch it unless it was alive. As far as my cat, he caught and killed what would get loose. He wouldn't eat much kibble, and he didn't like to eat the dead animals that he didn't kill. He had a high prey drive and that doesn't bother me. He was a barn cat. His ancestors were barn cats. That's what he grew up knowing. That IS Natural. That IS the way of life. That IS how it works in the wild. And by wild I'm not talking about lions and wolves, I am talking about dogs and cats. If my dogs were abandoned, and left in a field with plenty of fresh fruits and veggies, some chickens, rabbits and rats , you can bet that they are going to hunt, kill and eat the animal before they go nomming down on some fruit and veggies. 

You are entitled to your opinion as is every one else. And IMO I do not view live prey as torture, inhumane or barbaric. 

Yeah, maybe the fact that cats live in our house and not outside wild it interfering with nature. But that doesn't mean they don't have instincts. That doesn't mean that we shouldn't try the best to provide them with what nature intended. 

I also agree with what you said about a swift snap of the neck. That is exactly what my dogs and cats do when they kill something. Its almost instant. Its not like they pin it down and start eating.


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## GrantThomas (Jul 19, 2012)

Tobi said:


> How dare you say that i care very little for the mouse, you don't know me, you don't know anything about me. I simply understand that the very "nature" of nature is death, to feed another.


I dare so. You made a particular statement that could be interpreted as someone who has little welfare concern for the mouse. Telling someone to "go for it" with regards to feeding their cat a live mouse, _even if the kill isn't so swift_? What's that supposed to mean? Please elaborate. I don't need to know you... much like you don't need to know me, for example, if you were accusing me of a lack of table etiquette when I said I like eating steak with my bare hands. 

Not everything in nature involves death. How about birth, for example? Or the northern lights, even? Or the way light is reflected from a clear pond? Nature is _chaotic_, and in some parts, beautiful. Death is but a component of it all in the grand scheme of things.



> Zoos... feed kibble more often than not, so please, tell me... what do zoos really know about morality and practicality.


Kibble? Their big cats get given hunks of flesh, kibble won't really sustain them. Civilised zoos do not feed live antelope to their big cats for these reasons:

1) It is unnecessarily cruel to the prey animal.
2) The prey animal can injure the predator.
3) Public abhorrence.

Zoos should do what is best for the animal - following what happens in nature isn't necessarily the best option. For example, in nature, animals are in constant threat from predation, exposed to various kinds of parasites and pathogens, exposed to harsh weather and danger from other packs of their own species. All of these are natural, but in the best interests of these animals in captivity, such dangers are mitigated by not being replicated in captivity. To do otherwise would be quite irresponsible and cruel.



Makovach said:


> My snakes won't eat dead food. Not even if you used tongs to make it move, They wouldn't touch it unless it was alive.


Have you tried heating up the dead animal? Have you tried various enrichment techniques? I'm no expert on the latter, but I'm sure there are ways to ween off live. It just takes time and patience. Have you seen billflower's videos on YouTube?



> As far as my cat, he caught and killed what would get loose. He wouldn't eat much kibble, and he didn't like to eat the dead animals that he didn't kill. He had a high prey drive and that doesn't bother me. He was a barn cat. His ancestors were barn cats. That's what he grew up knowing. That IS Natural. That IS the way of life. That IS how it works in the wild. And by wild I'm not talking about lions and wolves, I am talking about dogs and cats. If my dogs were abandoned, and left in a field with plenty of fresh fruits and veggies, some chickens, rabbits and rats , you can bet that they are going to hunt, kill and eat the animal before they go nomming down on some fruit and veggies.


I am not arguing against that. But there's a big difference between having a cat catch a mouse by its own, out in some field, and dumping a live, domesticated and frightened animal in front of it. I am not advocating a vegan diet for a carnivore either, so I don't see the point with your last statement.



> You are entitled to your opinion as is every one else. And IMO I do not view live prey as torture, inhumane or barbaric.


As are you. When you say "live prey", context is important. I've seen videos on YouTube where people feed rats to their snapping turtles, and they get slowly ripped apart. Despite the fact that snapping turtles don't need live rodents, in fact they are carrion eaters too and will eat anything. Yet they are all over Youtube as some kind of cheap thrill. This is why I absolutely despise live feeding, and why I think it's barbaric and inhumane. Now, in your circumstances, I might be willing to concede that it is not - if your snake can't survive on anything else then that is fair enough. However, in the case of chucking a live mouse to a cat? That's definitely inhumane. It's unnecessary. And I don't think there's an argument for letting an animal go through unnecessary pain and terror when it can be avoided.



> But that doesn't mean they don't have instincts. That doesn't mean that we shouldn't try the best to provide them with what nature intended.


They have instincts, ok. So what? I have two rats as pets, and they have instincts to chew everything - that doesn't necessarily mean I should let them chew on everything.

How do you know what nature intends? See, this is where I am getting at here - citing nature is a fallacy. In the wild, animals starve to death, get all sorts of disease, get killed by rough weather and displacement - the average lifespan in the wild for a cat is far less than it is in captivity due to all those reasons. In a controlled environment, such dangers are either minimised or eliminated entirely. Nature throws all kinds of nasty stuff out, what is natural to an animal in the wild doesn't really mean it's ok for it in captivity.



> I also agree with what you said about a swift snap of the neck. That is exactly what my dogs and cats do when they kill something. Its almost instant. Its not like they pin it down and start eating.


How do you know for sure? The animal could very well be stunned/in a state of shock. At least if you're doing the killing, you will know it's dead. Cats are notorious for playing with their prey. Inexperienced hunters are clumsy and don't kill their prey quickly. Let's not forget the terror the animal must feel to be placed in front of a large predator - if one is to argue that the killing is quick, then what about that? It's completely unnecessary, and it can be argued that putting the animal through that is inhumane.


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## SaharaNight Boxers (Jun 28, 2011)

@GrantThompson

Well first I think you got it completely right with public abhorrence and the zoo. That is probably the only reason though. Not everyone strives to do the best. 

I think one thing that needs to be pointed out is that when you talked about nature you talked about pretty much non-alive things. Animals aren't always beautiful, peaceful, and calm. They are mainly killers. Death is not always pretty, but it is real. I think the beauty in it is that an animal is capable of it and knows how to do it. 

To me, I can't deny what my dog is, he is a hunter. He is also a domesticated wolf. Nothing on the inside has changed. 

And I don't think it's unnecessary if an animal won't eat any other way, that would be inhumane to me to starve my animal when I can feed it in a way everyone might not agree with, but he will eat it. 

Animal nature is not humane. 

When would you say live prey is correct then?


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## Makovach (Jan 24, 2012)

Ever thought of how most killed prey you order die? They usually get shoved many in a box with CO2 and it slowly knocks them out. I'm sure that wouldn't be terrifying at all. Or other times, they are put (live) in zip lock bags, and put it the freezer. Some places smack them in the head with a hammer. Some people hold their tail and smack them against a corner to break their necks. 

As far as trying to heat or "enrich" the animal", heating would chance the make up of the food. It would no longer be a raw food. I'm not quite sure what you mean by enrich, but snakes (at least mine were) are picky. Many snakes refuse to strike at dead prey. Constrictors don't just eat, they squeeze their prey until it stops breathing (which generally with the right size prey takes only seconds). I'm sure being constricted is no more scary for the prey than being held to snap its neck. 


You say you are not arguing against a cat catching a mouse on its own, but rather feeding it a live mouse that you hand it. What is really the difference. Many times my Sparta would find the mice that got loose. He would get baby birds from the trees. He would find a nest of baby bunnies. The times that I would give him the option to get it on his own, he did. When I would give him the animal at my own will, he acted no different than he did when catching one running around the house or out side. I'm sure the mice he hunted trough out the house were no less terrified than the ones I would put in a tote. When I put the mice in the tote, they can't run. They were killed and eaten right away. They didn't get away and get caught again and again. There was no chase. IMO this would be less traumatic than trying to flea for your life. 

The point in my statement was not saying you are advocating a vegan diet for carnivores, it was to state that it is what happens. It is what will happen when given the opportunity. 

Comparing what the way I feed live prey to the way people are feeding snapping turtles on line is blasphemy. My cat wouldn't eat much other than live rodents, my snakes would only eat live rodents. Its wasn't like I could give them small gold fish, or small prey that they could eat in one bite. I wasn't doing it for the thrill, I was doing it for my animals to survive. You say it is inhumane and unnecessary to feed cats live mice, but you don't know my cat. He was a barn cat, it is what he did. When I brought him inside, he would go days with out eating. He wouldn't touch kibble 99% of the time. He would not eat a chicken wing or dead prey most of the time. When it comes down to the mouse (prey) dying so my cat (predator) can eat? I honestly don't really care about the mouse. Yeah, sure, I don't want him to chew its feet off and slowly kill it but he didn't. Sparta would grab their head, bite down and whip his head back and their neck would break almost instantly. 

I have two pet rats. They have had babies. they ate their babies live, slowly and I'm sure quite painfully. But its what they do sometimes. I may not "know" what nature intends, but all I can do is the best of my ability and my belief. Yes, in the wild, animals starve to death, but in captivity, it is our job to provide them with the best that we can to keep them alive. The do get diseases, but there are ways to deal with it. They do get killed by rough weather and displacement, but when you take an animal in, you should be intending on keeping it safe. To me, Nature is natural. To me, when I take in animals, I plan to feed them as natural as possible. I plan to keep the good, and eliminate the bad from their lives in the wild to being inside. Saying what is natural in the wild doesn't mean it is okay in captivity is simply your opinion.

How can you say the animal could be stunned or in a state of shock, but would be good and dead if I killed it? My cat acted way faster than I ever could have. And I knew it was dead when he would kill it because you could hear the bones breaking in his neck. You could see that it was dead. I could take it away from him and it would be dead. There are many times I attempted to kill prey and it didn't go as smoothly as my cat can. Cats may be notorious for playing with their prey, again, you do not know my cat. Inexperienced hunters maybe be clumsy and not kill their prey quickly, again, your don't know my cat. Lets not forget the fear the cattle must feel as they are placed in a place of confinement and shot in the face. Its life. Its what we do. 

All I'm going to say is I see my cat killing it instantly more humane than live freezing, CO2, bashing its head on a corner ect. We are going to have to agree to disagree, because this conservation will go no where good. Call my actions what you will, it's no dirt off my shoulder.


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## GrantThomas (Jul 19, 2012)

SaharaNight Boxers said:


> @GrantThompson
> Well first I think you got it completely right with public abhorrence and the zoo. That is probably the only reason though. Not everyone strives to do the best.


No, it is not the only reason. Antelopes can kick and cause damage, do you really think that predators always get the job done perfectly? No. Some animals can and will fight back in order to survive. 



> Animal nature is not humane.


Irrelevant. Humans _can_ be humane.



> When would you say live prey is correct then?


Only as a last resort.



Makovach said:


> Ever thought of how most killed prey you order die? They usually get shoved many in a box with CO2 and it slowly knocks them out. I'm sure that wouldn't be terrifying at all. Or other times, they are put (live) in zip lock bags, and put it the freezer. Some places smack them in the head with a hammer. Some people hold their tail and smack them against a corner to break their necks.


No, it isn't terrifying because the animals are none the wiser. When done correctly, the gas puts them to sleep. Anyone who puts a live mammal in a freezer is absolutely a cruel bastard, that is _not_ how you euthanise a living creature. The last two methods might seem brutal, but they are very quick and painless. Mice are fragile animals. Anyone with enough sense should know how to perform a cervical dislocation anyway, when keeping such animals for snakes. The whole point of killing them prior to feeding is to not only minimise suffering, but to ensure there's no risk to the predator.



> As far as trying to heat or "enrich" the animal", heating would chance the make up of the food. It would no longer be a raw food. I'm not quite sure what you mean by enrich, but snakes (at least mine were) are picky. Many snakes refuse to strike at dead prey. Constrictors don't just eat, they squeeze their prey until it stops breathing (which generally with the right size prey takes only seconds). I'm sure being constricted is no more scary for the prey than being held to snap its neck.


The animal would still get its nutrients if you heat it up a little. As far as enrichment is concerned, I recommend watching billflower's videos on the topic. 



> You say you are not arguing against a cat catching a mouse on its own, but rather feeding it a live mouse that you hand it. What is really the difference.


The difference is human interference - you dropping a helpless animal to your cat, where it has no hope to escape.



> I'm sure the mice he hunted trough out the house were no less terrified than the ones I would put in a tote. When I put the mice in the tote, they can't run. They were killed and eaten right away. They didn't get away and get caught again and again. There was no chase. IMO this would be less traumatic than trying to flea for your life.


I still think the process of chucking a live animal to a predator where it cannot escape is unnatural and barbaric. Imagine if someone did the same thing with a kitten and a pit bull?



> The point in my statement was not saying you are advocating a vegan diet for carnivores, it was to state that it is what happens. It is what will happen when given the opportunity.


That it happens is entirely irrelevant. So does infanticide. So does rape. There are a lot of things in nature that we strive to avoid that "happens". This isn't a cat happening to find and eat a mouse by chance, it's a human being dumping an animal right in front out it out of no where. It's not really fair for the mouse.



> You say it is inhumane and unnecessary to feed cats live mice, but you don't know my cat. He was a barn cat, it is what he did. When I brought him inside, he would go days with out eating. He wouldn't touch kibble 99% of the time. He would not eat a chicken wing or dead prey most of the time. When it comes down to the mouse (prey) dying so my cat (predator) can eat? I honestly don't really care about the mouse. Yeah, sure, I don't want him to chew its feet off and slowly kill it but he didn't. Sparta would grab their head, bite down and whip his head back and their neck would break almost instantly.


I think it's still inhumane. It's not exactly kind to plop a helpless animal in front of a predator like that, just imagine if *you* were that mouse. It's not a nice thing to experience. You're placing a domesticated, animal in front of a larger predator. It's not a natural situation, it is concocted by a human being. Though in your situation, I am willing to admit it *might* be a necessary evil, however, you should try and ween that cat off live food. If not for avoiding suffering, then certainly to prevent your cat from getting parasites.



> I have two pet rats. They have had babies. they ate their babies live, slowly and I'm sure quite painfully. But its what they do sometimes. I may not "know" what nature intends, but all I can do is the best of my ability and my belief. Yes, in the wild, animals starve to death, but in captivity, it is our job to provide them with the best that we can to keep them alive. The do get diseases, but there are ways to deal with it. They do get killed by rough weather and displacement, but when you take an animal in, you should be intending on keeping it safe.


That's right. And that means minimising risk, and live feeding *can* be a risk.



> To me, Nature is natural. To me, when I take in animals, I plan to feed them as natural as possible. I plan to keep the good, and eliminate the bad from their lives in the wild to being inside. Saying what is natural in the wild doesn't mean it is okay in captivity is simply your opinion.


Saying it's "natural" is a complete fallacy. After all, you're keeping these animals in unnatural conditions, putting them in unnatural situations. My opinion? No, it is not really an opinion. I have described exactly why some things in nature are best left there, I used disease, poor weather, danger of predation, etc to drive home that exact point. You agreed with me there, as you strive to limit or eliminate said conditions. They are natural, and as I said, they aren't necessarily OK in captivity, because they aren't.



> How can you say the animal could be stunned or in a state of shock, but would be good and dead if I killed it? My cat acted way faster than I ever could have. And I knew it was dead when he would kill it because you could hear the bones breaking in his neck. You could see that it was dead. I could take it away from him and it would be dead. There are many times I attempted to kill prey and it didn't go as smoothly as my cat can.


I can say that because that is typically what happens in a predator-prey relationship. Perhaps it doesn't apply to you, but your cat might be an exception to the rule.



> Cats may be notorious for playing with their prey, again, you do not know my cat. Inexperienced hunters maybe be clumsy and not kill their prey quickly, again, your don't know my cat. Lets not forget the fear the cattle must feel as they are placed in a place of confinement and shot in the face. Its life. Its what we do. All I'm going to say is I see my cat killing it instantly more humane than live freezing, CO2, bashing its head on a corner ect. We are going to have to agree to disagree, because this conservation will go no where good. Call my actions what you will, it's no dirt off my shoulder.


Fair enough, agree to disagree. I think you're fine because the aspect of live feeding which I completely hate is when it's unnecessary, and drawn-out. In your situation, sure, you might have to. But I can't really say the same for most others. The whole idea of me being against live feeding in the first place is to minimise suffering and risk to the predator.


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