# Leaving EVO



## SaltyDog (Mar 10, 2010)

Those on here who know me, know I don't feed much kibble, but when I do, I use EVO (for both dogs now...the puppy was on Orijen LBP when using kibble).

I'm almost on my last bag of Pre-P&G. I guess, now that it is coming down to it, I don't feel 100% comfortable staying with EVO for future purchases. Sad too. I really felt this was the best kibble we had available to us.

I just saw the new line of Orijen coming out...the 80/20/0 line. That looks interesting. My only complaint with Orijen is that they use Citric Acid to preserve....which I was told was suppose to stop. Any conformation to this?

I'm looking for a non chicken based kibble to use. They eat real chicken all the time, so I want a different protein source for their kibble. I usually feed Evo Red.

So I looked at Acana Grasslands. Wish it had a higher meat content, higher fat content and more calories. But overall....as I would expect, it looks great.

I looked at Go! Endurance. There is absolutely nothing wrong with this formula....except it is chicken based, and I don't want that.

I've read about Acana Ranchlands coming out, but this will probably have the same issues as Grasslands, and be difficult to find for the first 6 to 8 months it comes out.

The one I'm leaning towards is Instinct. Either the duck or the new beef formula that just came out. High calories, high fat. They did remove the citric acid which I'm happy about. They only things is, is that they do not use any fresh meat...just meat meals. I suppose that is not a real issue since the amount of fresh meat used in any of these kibbles is most likely non existent. Anyone on here use Instinct?

I honestly wish there was a way to prove that EVO would never change :frown:


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## saltydogs (Oct 31, 2010)

SaltyDog said:


> Those on here who know me, know I don't feed much kibble, but when I do, I use EVO (for both dogs now...the puppy was on Orijen LBP when using kibble).
> 
> I'm almost on my last bag of Pre-P&G. I guess, now that it is coming down to it, I don't feel 100% comfortable staying with EVO for future purchases. Sad too. I really felt this was the best kibble we had available to us.
> 
> ...


Look at the new Annamaet GF's. PM me if you want more info.


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## whiteleo (Sep 7, 2008)

Oh, I can guarantee you I can get it up where I live: the Acana Ranchlands. I'm not sure if they'll ship and it would probably kill the price!


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## SaltyDog (Mar 10, 2010)

saltydogs said:


> Look at the new Annamaet GF's. PM me if you want more info.



Preeeeety sure I won't be "pm-ing" for more info on it.


It is my favorite thing in the world when I start a new and complete discussion about specific examples, and then someone suggests something that I'm not even asking about. Why in the hell do I go to great lengths to be so specific and then get recomendations about something completely different. 


Example of how I read these comments.

Me: Hey, are their any Instinct users?

Responder: You should fly on Delta Airlines. PM me if you want a flight schedule.

See how the response has nothing to do with the topic up for discussion?


But I'm going to humor this response. Why is there added salt in Annamaet dog food? They claim low carbs....if you consider 41% low. They claim low ash, but do not publish the number. They also do not give a full and complete nutrient breakdown....what are they hiding? It is lower in protein which leads me to believe that this grain free is a little on the potato heavy side. Peas are the the 4th ingredient which leads be to believe that the meat content may be on the light side as well, since peas are so rich in protein.

To be fair to you, Annamaet Grain Free is far from being horrible. It definitely lists out well. For me personally, EVO is the best that kibble can come...I just have an untrusting feeling about Proctor and Gamble. Annamaet is a little on the low side for fat content and the 30% protein level is questionable for me as far as meat content with Peas being so high in the ingredient list.

Again, it is certainly not terrible. I would probably classify this food in with brands such as Canine Caviar, Earthborn, Merrick. But it is to low in certain ingredients to be in the same catagory as EVO or Instinct.


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## Caty M (Aug 13, 2010)

The instinct line looks really good.. near as good as EVO and you're right to switch in my opinion.. NO dog food owned by a large corporation like P&G would be considered good.. maybe you can rotate the instinct types so he gets a bigger variety of proteins? Just an idea. 

Do you feed raw chicken as well as kibble? If you do maybe you can add small amounts of other types of protein and just keep on the same kibble flavour.

Overall though it looks to be a high quality grain free:
Duck Meal, Turkey Meal, Salmon Meal, Canola Oil (naturally preserved with Mixed Tocopherols and Citric Acid), Tapioca, Tomato Pomace, Pumpkinseeds, Herring Meal, Sun-Cured Alfalfa Meal, Montmorillonite Clay, Natural Flavor, Potassium Chloride, Brewers Yeast, Vitamins (Choline Chloride, Vitamin E Supplement, Ascorbic Acid, Niacin Supplement, Biotin, D-Calcium Pantothenate, Vitamin A Acetate, Riboflavin Supplement, Thiamine Mononitrate, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride, Vitamin D3 Supplement, Iodine Supplement, Vitamin B12 Supplement, Carotene, Folic Acid), Peas, Minerals (Zinc Proteinate, Iron Proteinate, Manganese Proteinate, Copper Proteinate, Sodium Selenite), Sea Salt, Dried Kelp, Cranberries, Blueberries, Inulin, Freeze Dried Turkey, Freeze Dried Turkey Liver, Dried Enterococcus Faecium Fermentation Product, Dried Lactobacillus Acidophilus Fermentation Product, Rosemary Extract, Freeze Dried Turkey Hearts, Freeze Dried Ground Turkey Bone
Guaranteed Analysis:
Instinct Duck Meal and Turkey Meal Dog Food Guaranteed Analysis:

Crude Protein (min): 35.0%
Crude Fat (min): 22.0%
Crude Fiber (max): 3.5%
Moisture (max): 10.0%

Good protein and fat percentages. And definately better than Annamaet.. the second ingredient in Annamaet GF is potato :biggrin: And lower fat and protein.

Edit - I wouldn't worry about the no fresh meat.. you said you feed your dogs real chicken.. so that boosts it a bit


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## Caty M (Aug 13, 2010)

Saltydog and Saltydogs.. your names are too similar!!


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## SaltyDog (Mar 10, 2010)

bishopthesheltie said:


> Saltydog and Saltydogs.. your names are too similar!!




I was here first! :biggrin:





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## SaltyDog (Mar 10, 2010)

bishopthesheltie said:


> Edit - I wouldn't worry about the no fresh meat.. you said you feed your dogs real chicken.. so that boosts it a bit



I was thinking the same thing.....and it's not like they eat kibble all that often.






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## Unosmom (May 3, 2009)

I think Instinct is a good choice, especially since they have 2 new formulas now you can always do the rotation.


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## SamWu1 (Oct 15, 2010)

Perhaps Orijen Regional Red?

Fresh deboned wild boar, fresh deboned lamb, lamb meal, russet potato, fresh deboned pork, peas, salmon meal, whitefish meal*, herring meal, fresh deboned bison, fresh whole eggs, potato starch, fresh deboned salmon (a natural source of DHA and EPA), alfalfa, sweet potato, fresh deboned walleye, salmon oil (naturally preserved with vitamin E), pea fiber, psyllium, pumpkin, tomatoes, carrots, apples, cranberries, Saskatoon berries, black currants, chicory root, licorice root, angelica root, fenugreek, marigold flowers, sweet fennel, peppermint leaf, chamomile flowers, dandelion, summer savory, rosemary, organic kelp, vitamin A, vitamin D3, vitamin E, niacin, zinc proteinate, thiamine mononitrate, riboflavin, vitamin B5, iron proteinate, vitamin B6, manganese proteinate, copper proteinate, folic acid, biotin, vitamin B12, selenium, dried Lactobacillus acidophilus product, dried Enterococcus faecium fermentation product.

Now it may not be a big deal but Nature's Variety does source its rabbits from China in their rabbit formula, uses Menhaden fish meal and adds salt to their products.


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## meggels (May 30, 2010)

Ooooooh I hadn't heard about the new Instinct formula! Interesting. I fed my guys the rabbit formula, one large bag worth, they liked it at first but they started getting finicky towards the end of the bag. Dunno if it was coincidence or not. It was STIIIIINKY too hehe  But I'd love to try the other formulas. 


Have you looked into Primitive Naturals by Earthborn Holistics? Hope this doesn't annoy you that I'm suggesting it, but it just popped into my mind.


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## SaltyDog (Mar 10, 2010)

meggels said:


> Have you looked into Primitive Naturals by Earthborn Holistics? Hope this doesn't annoy you that I'm suggesting it, but it just popped into my mind.




lol :biggrin:


Nope....not annoyed :smile:




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## SaltyDog (Mar 10, 2010)

SamWu1 said:


> Perhaps Orijen Regional Red?
> 
> Fresh deboned wild boar, fresh deboned lamb, lamb meal, russet potato, fresh deboned pork, peas, salmon meal, whitefish meal*, herring meal, fresh deboned bison, fresh whole eggs, potato starch, fresh deboned salmon (a natural source of DHA and EPA), alfalfa, sweet potato, fresh deboned walleye, salmon oil (naturally preserved with vitamin E), pea fiber, psyllium, pumpkin, tomatoes, carrots, apples, cranberries, Saskatoon berries, black currants, chicory root, licorice root, angelica root, fenugreek, marigold flowers, sweet fennel, peppermint leaf, chamomile flowers, dandelion, summer savory, rosemary, organic kelp, vitamin A, vitamin D3, vitamin E, niacin, zinc proteinate, thiamine mononitrate, riboflavin, vitamin B5, iron proteinate, vitamin B6, manganese proteinate, copper proteinate, folic acid, biotin, vitamin B12, selenium, dried Lactobacillus acidophilus product, dried Enterococcus faecium fermentation product.
> .



Yeah, I was considering this one too. Aside from more meat inclusion, is this formula justifiable money wise, over Acana Grasslands?

I agree with you on the Instinct Menhaden Fish Meal. Why does that have to be in there? My reason for looking into Instinct is that it has the closest analysis comparable to EVO.








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## Jacksons Mom (Jun 13, 2010)

Jackson currently eats a rotation of Acana Grasslands and Orijen Regional Red. We also had a bag of Go! Endurance mixed in there once but I'm pretty happy with just Orijen/Acana right now. Though he did fine on Go too.

His taste preference is definitely Orijen Regional Red. That is by far his favorite. He seems to poop a little less on Orijen than Acana. Not by a lot, just a little. Acana Grasslands is his second favorite- he's been eating this flavor the longest, since March this year or so. He has never voluntarily eaten and loved a food for such a long time. But anyways, he does fantastic on both Orijen RR and Acana Grasslands. Nice, small, firm poops, shiny coat, great breath and teeth, etc. He got gas when I tried Orijen Adult which I found odd because this a dog who has never _ever_ been gassy in his two years of life. So when feeding Orijen, we'll be sticking with the Regional Red formula (it's a bit lower in protein, at 38%, so maybe that's why. Who knows).

He ate NV Instinct before we discovered Orijen/Acana, he ate that for about 5 months. He did great on it too but he gained a bit of weight on it, not excessive amount, but he just looked a bit 'thicker' to me. I noticed the fat content was like 22% on this food, compared to Acana's 15%, I think. But this was the first food we found (after trying Before Grain, Wellness, and many others) that he absolutely LOVED. So I was sooo happy to discover it for sure. and I wouldn't resist to feed it again. I still buy the Instinct canned foods.


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## SamWu1 (Oct 15, 2010)

SaltyDog said:


> Yeah, I was considering this one too. Aside from more meat inclusion, is this formula justifiable money wise, over Acana Grasslands?
> 
> I agree with you on the Instinct Menhaden Fish Meal. Why does that have to be in there? My reason for looking into Instinct is that it has the closest analysis comparable to EVO.
> 
> .


Since it's only supplemental, I don't think the higher meat inclusion in Orijen would be that big of a deal however, since it's not their main staple anyway, the price difference isn't really that substantial.

Grasslands is for the most part a lamb formula. It does include duck but that ingredient is #12 on the ingredient panel and it's not a meal so duck doesn't make up a substantial portion of the food.

Mehaden is used because it's inexpensive, plain and simple. If I'm paying top dollar for a "premium" pet food, I'm not going to surrender my hard earned dollar to a company that uses mehaden just to lower their bottom line, I'm going with a company that uses quality ingredients i.e. Champion.

Only using protein levels as a comparison, here's what I found:

EVO Red meat: 44.17%

Instinct Duck/Turkey: 35.0%

Instinct Beef: 37.0%

Orijen Regional Red: 38.0%

Acana Grasslands: 32.0%

It seems as the Regional Red has the highest protein levels by a small margin but I can almost be certain that protein level is aquired through sheer meat content. Instinct does have a formula with 42.0% protein but unfortunately it's chicken.

Now the Instinct Duck does have the highest fat content at 22% which would be good for an active dog but a few squirts of salmon oil or some raw chicken skin would compensate for that.


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## saltydogs (Oct 31, 2010)

SamWu1 said:


> Perhaps Orijen Regional Red?
> 
> Fresh deboned wild boar, fresh deboned lamb, lamb meal, russet potato, fresh deboned pork, peas, salmon meal, whitefish meal*, herring meal, fresh deboned bison, fresh whole eggs, potato starch, fresh deboned salmon (a natural source of DHA and EPA), alfalfa, sweet potato, fresh deboned walleye, salmon oil (naturally preserved with vitamin E), pea fiber, psyllium, pumpkin, tomatoes, carrots, apples, cranberries, Saskatoon berries, black currants, chicory root, licorice root, angelica root, fenugreek, marigold flowers, sweet fennel, peppermint leaf, chamomile flowers, dandelion, summer savory, rosemary, organic kelp, vitamin A, vitamin D3, vitamin E, niacin, zinc proteinate, thiamine mononitrate, riboflavin, vitamin B5, iron proteinate, vitamin B6, manganese proteinate, copper proteinate, folic acid, biotin, vitamin B12, selenium, dried Lactobacillus acidophilus product, dried Enterococcus faecium fermentation product.
> 
> Now it may not be a big deal but Nature's Variety does source its rabbits from China in their rabbit formula, uses Menhaden fish meal and adds salt to their products.




I wanna hear this one " uses Menhaden fish meal" why is Menhaden bad. Please tell me.


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## Jacksons Mom (Jun 13, 2010)

I was under the impression that their rabbit for their raw food was outsourced from China, but NOT the kibble. But I may be wrong.


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## cast71 (Sep 16, 2010)

> I wanna hear this one " uses Menhaden fish meal" why is Menhaden bad. Please tell me.


He didn't say it was bad. He said it's a low quality ingredient, that shouldn't be in an expensive dog food. Are you going to argue, that its not a low quality ingredient?


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## cast71 (Sep 16, 2010)

Hey saltydog, instinct looks pretty good. I ordered some along with evo and acana. I couldn't resist on the evo, since doggiefood.com has excellent prices on both. I really hope evo doesn't get messed with. Really would'nt make any sense to, but corporates make strange choices sometimes


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## RCTRIPLEFRESH5 (Feb 11, 2010)

saltydog said:


> those on here who know me, know i don't feed much kibble, but when i do, i use evo (for both dogs now...the puppy was on orijen lbp when using kibble).
> 
> I'm almost on my last bag of pre-p&g. I guess, now that it is coming down to it, i don't feel 100% comfortable staying with evo for future purchases. Sad too. I really felt this was the best kibble we had available to us.
> 
> ...





saltydogs said:


> look at the new annamaet gf's. Pm me if you want more info.


so much salt in this thread


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## saltydogs (Oct 31, 2010)

cast71 said:


> He didn't say it was bad. He said it's a low quality ingredient, that shouldn't be in an expensive dog food. Are you going to argue, that its not a low quality ingredient?


It is absolutely not a low quality ingredient. Why would you conclude that? Because humans don't eat it? Humans dont eat Green Tripe either.

Tell me why its low quality. Give me facts. Ant don't paste something from the internet that says the oil is used in lipstick. i really don't care if the oil has some other use.

You are all over this clay thing on another thread and that clay is used to seal toxic waster dumps.

Menhaden that is preserved with Naturox is a top quality fish for dogs, much better than salmon or herring.

In fact virtually any "fish meal" or "ocean fish meal" is mostly menhaden.


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## RCTRIPLEFRESH5 (Feb 11, 2010)

i'm possibly switchin to eathborn hollistic's primitives natural..i think youd lie this one


btw i had no idea u fed raw...i thought u were a kibble guy


anyway the ingredients are awesome,and its not chicken based...but chicken is the second ingridient..


Earthborn Holistic® Primitive Natural™ Dog Food: Ingredients

INGREDIENTS: Turkey Meal, Chicken Meal, Whitefish Meal, Potatoes, Chicken Fat (preserved with mixed tocopherols, a source of vitamin E), Dried Egg Product, Tomato Pomace, Apples, Blueberries, Carrots, Peas, Spinach, Garlic, Yucca Schidigera Extract, Taurine, Cottage Cheese, L-Lysine, DL-Methionine, Beta-Carotene, Calcium Carbonate, Zinc Oxide, Magnesium Proteinate, Copper Sulfate, Manganous Oxide, Niacin, D-Calcium Pantothenic Acid, Vitamin A Supplement, L-Carnitine, Vitamin B12 Supplement, Ascorbic Acid, Ferrous Sulfate, Biotin, Riboflavin (Vitamin B2), Thiamine Hydrochloride (Vitamin B1), Calcium Iodate, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride (Vitamin B6), Vitamin D3 Supplement, Folic Acid, Manganese Proteinate, Iron Proteinate, Zinc Proteinate, Copper Proteinate, Dried Lactobacillus Plantarum, Enterococcus Faecium, Lactobacillus Casei, Lactobacillus Acidophilus Fermentation Products.


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## RCTRIPLEFRESH5 (Feb 11, 2010)

cast71 said:


> He didn't say it was bad. He said it's a low quality ingredient, that shouldn't be in an expensive dog food. Are you going to argue, that its not a low quality ingredient?


im curious myself. mehaden fish meal sounds like another meat meal to me..and meat eals are good.....

is it liek ocean fish meal/ an unanmed meat? and thus not good


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## SamWu1 (Oct 15, 2010)

saltydogs said:


> It is absolutely not a low quality ingredient. Why would you conclude that? Because humans don't eat it? Humans dont eat Green Tripe either.
> 
> Tell me why its low quality. Give me facts. Ant don't paste something from the internet that says the oil is used in lipstick. i really don't care if the oil has some other use.
> 
> ...


I'm not concerned about the fish itself as fish meal is fish meal, a good protein source. My concern is simply that not all, but a majority of menhaden fish meal intended as animal feed is generally stabilized with ethoxquin which is something I prefer to not be in my dog's meals.

If I was feeding fresh menhaden fish, there obviously would be no issue. Instinct is a very expensive kibble and menhaden meal is very inexpensive so if they use it I want it to reflect in the bottom line and make it less costly.


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## cast71 (Sep 16, 2010)

saltydogs said:


> You are all over this clay thing on another thread and that clay is used to seal toxic waster dumps.


And what makes that a bad thing? It has many uses. As far as I'm concerned, it's as nutritious as corn as far as dogs are concerned. Next time post on the proper thread, otherwise your a hijacker


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## saltydogs (Oct 31, 2010)

SamWu1 said:


> I'm not concerned about the fish itself as fish meal is fish meal, a good protein source. My concern is simply that not all, but a majority of menhaden fish meal intended as animal feed is generally stabilized with ethoxquin which is something I prefer to not be in my dog's meals.
> 
> If I was feeding fresh menhaden fish, there obviously would be no issue. Instinct is a very expensive kibble and menhaden meal is very inexpensive so if they use it I want it to reflect in the bottom line and make it less costly.


Menhaden is not inexpensive. Do you have market prices for it? How do you know what it costs?


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## saltydogs (Oct 31, 2010)

RCTRIPLEFRESH5 said:


> im curious myself. mehaden fish meal sounds like another meat meal to me..and meat eals are good.....
> 
> is it liek ocean fish meal/ an unanmed meat? and thus not good


Menhaden has the best amino acid profile of any known protein source, even eggs.

It is a very oily fish and its caught mainly on the east coast, so companies that are near to the source buy pure Menhaden.

It also is very palatible, because it is so strong smelling.

As for ethoxyquin, you just have to ask the company. Most if not all have gotten the message and pay extra for naturally preserved Menhaden or fish meal.

I


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## cast71 (Sep 16, 2010)

saltydogs said:


> As for ethoxyquin, you just have to ask the company. Most if not all have gotten the message and pay extra for naturally preserved Menhaden or fish meal.
> 
> I


I hope there getting the message.


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## PUNKem733 (Jun 12, 2009)

If you ignore trolls they go away. Obviously there are certain members who use this forum as their entertainment hour trying to rile up dog owners. I have no clue why anyone would respond to that. Nearly everything they say is nearly the exact opposite of what one SHOULD do.


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## SamWu1 (Oct 15, 2010)

PUNKem733 said:


> If you ignore trolls they go away. Obviously there are certain members who use this forum as their entertainment hour trying to rile up dog owners. I have no clue why anyone would respond to that. Nearly everything they say is nearly the exact opposite of what one SHOULD do.


I've noticed he enjoys contradicting everyone's post. Fish having a higher amino acid profile than a chicken egg? Fish scored the lowest on the amino acids chain for an animal product. Protein comparisons in how complete a protein is according to Lew Olson.

Egg whites: 1.00
Muscle meats: 0.92
Organ meats: 0.90
Dairy: 0.89
*Fish: 0.78*
Rice: 0.72
Oats: 0.66
Wheat: 0.64

And of course saltydogs' favorite, corn, at an astonishing 0.54. But because saltydogs claims to be a medical practicioner, his views are chock full of credential.


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## SamWu1 (Oct 15, 2010)

PUNKem733 said:


> If you ignore trolls they go away.


Somehow I doubt that would be effective, like the guy in the cafeteria that enjoys the sound of his own voice, he'll just continue his infestation so he can read his own posts.

To an amatuer though his posts does sound rather convincing. Here's an article on Hill's Science Diet on why corn is so awesome in dog food,

Why is corn in certain products?

Corn is an excellent ingredient because of the benefits it brings to the product. Corn is a highly nutritious ingredient chosen as a source of protein (for muscle and tissue growth), carbohydrates (for energy), fiber, antioxidants (Beta-carotene, Vitamin E, Lutein) and linoleic acid - an essential fatty acid that promotes healthy skin and a luxurious coat.

Hill's uses grades 1 and 2 corn for our pet foods, which are the grades traditionally used for human food products. 

While some individuals are concerned about allergies in pets, corn is NOT a common cause of adverse food reactions in pets. Studies have shown that corn causes no more food allergies than any other grain.

Most grains, including corn, are poorly digested before they are cooked. Once cooked, however, they become highly digestible. Corn is also highly digestible, higher than several other grains such as rice, wheat, barley and sorghum.

Some consumers are concerned that corn may be a filler. Fillers offer no nutritional value whatsoever. Corn, as mentioned above, is a superb source of nutrients.

We choose all of our ingredients for the nutritional value they contribute to each product we make. 

Absolutely hilarious but I'm not done. Here's the link to all the merits of corn, by-products, fiber and , wait for it....a high meat diet is dangerous for your pet! Pet Food Ingredients and Myths | Hill's Pet Nutrition FAQs You may want to sit down for this gem, after this educational read, steam will come out your ears about how this company is misinforming owners and reeling in the profits at the expense of our pet's health.


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## PUNKem733 (Jun 12, 2009)

I should clarify my stance on that certain poster, ignore him, until it looks like he is about to convince, or is trying to convince a new member on "their ways", then we should counter his claims.


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## DaneMama (Jun 27, 2008)

Thread has been closed temporarily. 

Ok! Thread is back open for discussion! Please keep the peace ya'll :wink: :biggrin:


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## RCTRIPLEFRESH5 (Feb 11, 2010)

SamWu1 said:


> I'm not concerned about the fish itself as fish meal is fish meal, a good protein source. My concern is simply that not all, but a majority of menhaden fish meal intended as animal feed is generally stabilized with ethoxquin which is something I prefer to not be in my dog's meals.
> 
> If I was feeding fresh menhaden fish, there obviously would be no issue. Instinct is a very expensive kibble and menhaden meal is very inexpensive so if they use it I want it to reflect in the bottom line and make it less costly.


from what im reading here mehaden fish meal and ocean fish meal are the same? however totw claims they dont use ethoxyquin and mehaden fish meal /ocean fish meal is in their foods.


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## SaltyDog (Mar 10, 2010)

I received an email today. Instinct is in fact, still preserved with Citric Acid. It's just no longer listed on the ingredients list 

Sorry, but that is just ethically wrong in my book.



You think the ingredients in EVO will really be sourced somewhere else??? lol....yeah, me too.


Orijen Regional Red it is :smile:






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## RCTRIPLEFRESH5 (Feb 11, 2010)

SaltyDog said:


> I received an email today. Instinct is in fact, still preserved with Citric Acid. It's just no longer listed on the ingredients list
> 
> Sorry, but that is just ethically wrong in my book.
> 
> ...


i still think u should consider earthborn pirm natural


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## SamWu1 (Oct 15, 2010)

SaltyDog said:


> Orijen Regional Red it is :smile:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Good choice. :biggrin:


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## SamWu1 (Oct 15, 2010)

RCTRIPLEFRESH5 said:


> i still think u should consider earthborn pirm natural


Earthborn Primative is a good grainless food. The issue with that is it's only poultry based and Saltydog is looking for something red meat based.

They only use meat meals which isn't bad but I like seeing some fresh meats included in pet foods since it isn't "double cooked", first in the rendering plant and second when it's added to the kibble dough. Plus they use dried egg product, not fresh whole eggs.

To be candid, most of those components really doesn't impact the kibble all that much, but why not feed the best.


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## Caty M (Aug 13, 2010)

What is wrong with citric acid? I have never really heard anything bad about it..

Orijen is the best brand to feed imo. I would just stick with that. It along with EVO seem to have the best protein sources and with the switchover I doubt that EVO will stay the same. I read a statement that EVO will continue to use quality sources of ingredients but 'quality' isn't an FDA regulated word..


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## SamWu1 (Oct 15, 2010)

bishopthesheltie said:


> What is wrong with citric acid? I have never really heard anything bad about it..
> 
> Orijen is the best brand to feed imo. I would just stick with that. It along with EVO seem to have the best protein sources and with the switchover I doubt that EVO will stay the same. I read a statement that EVO will continue to use quality sources of ingredients but 'quality' isn't an FDA regulated word..


I used to use EVO before I used Orijen because they had the highest animal product content (80% or so) but they weren't as forward as Orijen as to where they sourced the meat and that's the sole reason why I went with Orijen.

To be frank it really doesn't matter all that much to me if the meat was pasture or free run as long as the meat isn't diseased or contaminated. But generally grassfed, free run and wild caught is less likely to have antibiotics and hormones added and that's a critical component to what I would choose for my own pet.


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## SaltyDog (Mar 10, 2010)

RCTRIPLEFRESH5 said:


> i still think u should consider earthborn pirm natural


I don't want a chicken based kibble since all I feed is chicken.

Regional Red looks like an excellant choice. Instinct, although very similar to EVO has a couple questionable ingredients. Acana Grasslands doesn't have enough protein, fat or calories for my dogs.

I do think that Earthborn Primative looks like a good food though. There are no fresh meats in it though. Not an overly huge deal, but when you spend 50 bucks or more on a bag of food, you're already up there....why not buy the absolute best. It shows 30% protein and 20% fat. The big question though is, how are they pulling 717 calories per Kcal? That's a lot of calories with only 20% fat.








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## SaltyDog (Mar 10, 2010)

bishopthesheltie said:


> What is wrong with citric acid? I have never really heard anything bad about it..
> 
> ..



The "theory" is, citric acid as a preservative in kibble, when fed to a deep chested dog "can" cause bloat. Now, no matter what website your on, no matter what article you read, no matter what vet you talk to, and no matter wat nutritionist you speak with.....there is absolutely NO concrete evidence to exactly what causes bloat. "Studies" have shown that citric acid in a deep chested dog "might" be the issue. 

I'm not saying I believe these studies, since we trully do not know what causes it...........regardless, I just don't use kibble with citric acid as the preservative :smile:

Plenty of good foods out there that don't use it :wink:








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## RCTRIPLEFRESH5 (Feb 11, 2010)

i think earthborn is like 40, but if you want a red emat kibble, that makes sense..i just thought your dogs teared on orijen


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## SaltyDog (Mar 10, 2010)

RCTRIPLEFRESH5 said:


> i think earthborn is like 40, but if you want a red emat kibble, that makes sense..i just thought your dogs teared on orijen



Oh...no no. No tearing here. I just prefered Orijen Large Breed Pup over the Adult formula. I know a few others on here that had the same feelings I have about the two formulas. It doesn't make sense, because the ingredients lists are identical....just the calories and a couple ratios are the only thing that separates the two forumlas. But anyway, both of my dogs looked and performed better on the LBP formula over Adult...as did a few other members here on the board. It just doesn't make sense. Again, I feel that EVO trumps them all. I wish I could remain confident in the brand :frown:

I think that the Earthborn Primal looks just fine, but yes, I'd like a red meat forumla.





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## SaltyDog (Mar 10, 2010)

Well, I've totally changed my mind. I'm simply not going to use a kibble any longer for anything. I've used EVO as a filler for when I'm not using Honest Kitchen and was going to switch my EVO as a filler to Orijen Regional Red. But the fact of the matter is, it's still kibble. And when it comes down to it, it doesn't matter how premium the kibble is, it's still high processed kibble.

lol, clearly I'm inching my way towards raw :biggrin:


At this time, the only Honest Kitchen product I use is Preference and I add fresh chicken to that. BUT, there are two more products that I am going to check out....Grandma Lucy's and Only Natural. Both of these are freeze dried rather than dehydrated. Although extraordinarly similar, freeze drying seems to be just a little more gentle of a process. I'll definitely report on these as my dogs try them.

On a side note.....since my orginial post was to discuss switching off of EVO to another kibble to fill in the spots between my HK feedings, I did a lot more research on premium kibbles. I'm not taking one thing away from Orijen as I believe this is certainly one of the best kibbles you can buy, but after researching more thouroughly, the kibble I was ultimately going to use for my filler was Canine Caviar Venison/Split Pea. Many would not have agreed with that choice and most would be sticker shocked, but it's actually only $25 more per bag than Orijen Regional Red.

Here is the kicker on Canine Caviar Venison. 34% protein, 20% fat, 586 Cals per cup and it has the highest digestabilty of any kibble. I can attest to digestabilty claim as I've used both the chicken and lamb version of Canine Caviar before using Orijen and Evo products. There is no potato in this kibble. They claim this is a "raw" form kibble, but it's still kibble. Regardless, I had great success with Canine Caviar in the past, which lead to my choice being the Venison, had I continued down that road :smile:

But again, most will never try it due to the high price. And lets be honest....at that price, there are other choices you would do....raw, Honest Kitchen, or just cook at home for the dog. BUT, if you are truly willing to plunk down $75 to $80 for a bag of Regional Red, you are only $20 to $25 away from it. It's also the only kibble I know of on the market that you can switch into and out of instantly without doing the gradual thing.





UPDATE: just went to petfooddirect.com and the 30lb Venison/Split Pea is on sale for $82 with the instant promotional code.




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## SamWu1 (Oct 15, 2010)

Go raw, fresh and tasty. Guaranteed to not have potato (Unless you add it of course)! Speaking of potato, Grandma Lucy's has tons of it.


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## SamWu1 (Oct 15, 2010)

SaltyDog said:


> UPDATE: just went to petfooddirect.com and the 30lb Venison/Split Pea is on sale for $82 with the instant promotional code.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


$82 for this?

•Hormone, pesticide and antibiotic free Human Grade New Zealand Venison; raised free-range.
•Only cooked for 6 seconds; stimulates natural digestive enzymes (NO Probiotics Needed).
•Highest digestibility at 91 – 93%.
•NO GMO ( Geneticall Modified Ingredients)
•Grain free diet lowers the glycemic index and lowers the risk of diabetes.
•Chicory Root reduces the amount of pathogens in the intestinal tract.
•Lecithin helps with absorption of fats and proteins.
•Alfalfa and kelp for the stomach, garlic for the immune system.
•Yucca for hip and joint support and rose hips for added vitamin C.


Ingredients
Venison Meal, Split Pea, Canola Oil, Dried Pumpkin, Whole Ground Flaxseed, Sun-Cured Alfalfa, Venison Tripe, Dried Beet Pulp, Coconut Oil, Borage Oil, Primrose Oil, Sun-Cured Kelp, Sodium Chloride, Lecithin, Whole Clove Garlic, Parsley, Peppermint, Limestone, Dried Chicory Root, Taurine, Yucca Schidigera Extract, Papaya, Rose Hips, Riboflavin Supplement, Vitamin B12 Supplement, Niacin, Vitamin A Supplement, Calcium Pantothenate, Zinc Proteinate, Manganese Proteinate, Iron Proteinate, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride (a source of vitamin B6), Vitamin D3 Supplement, Thiamine, Methionine, Biotin, Folic Acid, Sodium Selenite, L-Carnitine, Beta Carotene.

Canola oil? Flaxseed? Dried beet pulp?

*•Only cooked for 6 seconds; stimulates natural digestive enzymes (NO Probiotics Needed).
* What does that mean exactly? I know for certain venison meal spends more than 6 seconds in the rendering facility.

Saltydog, you care way too much for your dogs to be feeding them overpriced, subpar foods. HK Preference is a box of dried, chopped salad for $50.00. Please try pmr, after a month you will not be able to go back to feeding anything from a bag or box because it no longer feels right.


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## SaltyDog (Mar 10, 2010)

SamWu1 said:


> Go raw, fresh and tasty. Guaranteed to not have potato (Unless you add it of course)! Speaking of potato, Grandma Lucy's has tons of it.



Yeah, I noticed that :frown:


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## Woofers (Nov 14, 2010)

Hi All!
New kid on the block here asking for clarification. I don't understand the "hate" Proctor & Gamble thing. I get that some people hate big corporations, it seems to be the politically correct thing these days. But, other than that, if the dog food formula has not changed and you love the food, why would you change? Is there a history of corporations secretly changing dog food formulas after purchasing the line?
Not trying to pick a fight or start a political discussion, just trying to understand your thinking. 
Thanks!


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## cast71 (Sep 16, 2010)

Hi, dog food companies change food without telling owners. It happens all the time. Natura was a well established trusted company. P&G is not. They still do animal testing on human products. There just another shady corporation. I bought a bag of evo, but I just don't feel like I can trust them. I probably wont buy natura products anymore. I also feed diamond products. They've took such a beating in the past that, they invested a ton of money on quality control systems. Do I trust them? Not really, but I despise P&G. I am always looking into diamond products and watching them as carefully as I can. I do not think I have any P&G products in my house except for 1 bag of evo. I think that all dog food comapies should be watched carefully!


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## SaltyDog (Mar 10, 2010)

cast71 said:


> \ I think that all dog food comapies should be watched carefully!



That should be a capital *ALL*....*ALL* dog food companies should be watched carefully.

Even Orijen, even Wysong....even Ziwi Peak!


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## cast71 (Sep 16, 2010)

SaltyDog said:


> That should be a capital *ALL*....*ALL* dog food companies should be watched carefully.
> 
> Even Orijen, even Wysong....even Ziwi Peak!


Now your seeing the light ahahahaha


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