# Really considering doing half kibble long term



## RedneckCowgirl (Oct 28, 2011)

I can get chicken for super cheap, but haven't been able to find much lately in the way of deals for other proteins so I think I am going to stick to the 50/50 that my dogs are on now, except only feed raw chicken and organs (unless I find a good deal) and feed a rotation of non-chicken based kibbles. These are the kibbles that I am looking at:
Innova Prime Grain Free Beef & Lamb Meal 
Annamaet Manitok Red Meat Formula
Nature's Variety Instinct Salmon Meal Formula 
Fromm Four-Star Nutritionals Grain Free Beef Frittata Veg Dry Dog Food
Darford Zero/G Sardine, Whitefish & Mysis Shrimp Dry Dog Food

What are everyone's experiences with these kibbles?


----------



## Kibblelady (Jul 13, 2012)

What actions or qualities are you looking for in a kibble? Some of those are very different in some ways.


----------



## BearMurphy (Feb 29, 2012)

Nature's Variety and Fromm can be expensive. I can feed raw for the same price or cheaper than those so if cost is a concern they might not be viable options. can you get earthborn or nutrisource near you? I have heard a lot about those lately and the price seems decent


----------



## RedneckCowgirl (Oct 28, 2011)

Kibblelady said:


> What actions or qualities are you looking for in a kibble? Some of those are very different in some ways.


Grain free, no china products and based on a different protein then chicken. Prefer high meat content and meat based protein levels.



BearMurphy said:


> Nature's Variety and Fromm can be expensive. I can feed raw for the same price or cheaper than those so if cost is a concern they might not be viable options. can you get earthborn or nutrisource near you? I have heard a lot about those lately and the price seems decent


I can get chicken cheap enough to not have to worry about the cost of the kibble. I can get earthborn, is nutrisource the one that comes in gray bags with a bright colored bar at the top? If so then I can get both.


----------



## BearMurphy (Feb 29, 2012)

RedneckCowgirl said:


> I can get earthborn, is nutrisource the one that comes in gray bags with a bright colored bar at the top? If so then I can get both.


I don't know I never fed it...I think they have different looking bags depending on the product line. on another board i'm on people are really happy with both especially earthborn

I used to feed fromm surf and turf but wasn't a fan of the beef frittata ingredient list because it was "fresh beef, peas, whole egg, fresh russet potatoes, pea protein, pork meat meal......" so it seemed like mostly peas and potatoes since the first meat meal was so far down


----------



## RedneckCowgirl (Oct 28, 2011)

BearMurphy said:


> I don't know I never fed it...I think they have different looking bags depending on the product line. on another board i'm on people are really happy with both especially earthborn


Just looked it up. Its not what I was thinking but it looks pretty good
NutriSource Grain Free Lamb Meal Formula Dry Dog Food | PetFoodDirect

I don't really like that there is only one meat protein source (even though its 1st and a meal) as you never really know how much protein is coming from that and how much from the peas that are #2. Granted, #3 is a fish meal. I will try it and see  I don't know if I can get it locally but I can always order it, and if my dogs do good then talk to them about carrying it. They are pretty good about that as long as it fits their standards.


----------



## RedneckCowgirl (Oct 28, 2011)

Dogswell Nutrisca Lamb and Chickpea Recipe Dry Dog Food | PetFoodDirect

^^ That is the one I was thinking about lol


----------



## Kibblelady (Jul 13, 2012)

RedneckCowgirl said:


> Grain free, no china products and based on a different protein then chicken. Prefer high meat content and meat based protein levels.
> .


Do you want low carb? And do you have a reference for the protein levels you are looking for?


----------



## Kibblelady (Jul 13, 2012)

RedneckCowgirl said:


> Dogswell Nutrisca Lamb and Chickpea Recipe Dry Dog Food | PetFoodDirect
> 
> ^^ That is the one I was thinking about lol


That looks good, I just prefer probiotics included. Do you want such a high fiber content?


----------



## RedneckCowgirl (Oct 28, 2011)

Kibblelady said:


> Do you want low carb? And do you have a reference for the protein levels you are looking for?


Lower carbs, yes. What do you mean a reference? I would prefer to have at least two meat meals before a non meat protein source, if that is what your asking


----------



## Losech (Jul 10, 2012)

Protein level as in 24%, 30%, 32%, 40%, etc. Right?

I try to stay above 30% with kibble. If I can't find one that he can tolerate that's in my price range and has a protein level above 30%, I will add things like eggs or meats to it to bump the protein up.

Nature's Variety gets their rabbit from China (I think?) so that would knock them off your list. If you stayed away from the rabbit formulas, then everything else in the Instinct line should work out good. I liked the salmon one when I tried it.


----------



## domika (Jul 15, 2012)

Almost all (if not all) the Nature's Variety Instinct line has high protein. But I agree with Losech, I think they get their rabbit from China. 

Orijen, Acana, Earthborn Holisitc and EVO all might interest you. Fromm is a nice brand but I don't really think I would feed the Beef Frittata because the first meat meal is so far down on the list.


----------



## Caty M (Aug 13, 2010)

The only problem with Instinct is it is very high in ash. And yes, staying away from rabbit should be pretty easy! Though, in my area, it's very expensive, so I doubt you'd be saving money by going half raw and half Instinct.


----------



## Kibblelady (Jul 13, 2012)

Caty M said:


> The only problem with Instinct is it is very high in ash. And yes, staying away from rabbit should be pretty easy! Though, in my area, it's very expensive, so I doubt you'd be saving money by going half raw and half Instinct.


I'd like more information on the actual Instinct ash content. The information I am finding is Maximum 12%, that's a max number not certainly the actual number. I would imagine because batches of meals can vary and they know the mineral content of the foods that the number could be variant up to the max. With an average of 5-9% ash content in the industry I am not seeing the concern in it possibly being 3% higher. What information is being referenced to determine that a maximum 12% ash is "high" and potentially harmful? ( I am currently using this food so I would like this explained, I know what ash is. I am just interested in where this "high" thing is coming from and what it is being based on?)

Thank you


----------



## InkedMarie (Sep 9, 2011)

I fed Annamaet for a short while, before buying pre made raw but i like everything I've heard about the company and the food. I will definitely choose Annamaet when i decide to add kibble back in.


----------



## CavePaws (Jan 25, 2011)

Fyi dogswell sources from china.


----------



## Losech (Jul 10, 2012)

Kibblelady said:


> I'd like more information on the actual Instinct ash content.


Go to instinct's website and look at the mineral levels. They are posted on the page for each formula. 
They are a bit excessive in some areas compared to the most recent recommendations by the NRC. Overnutrition is just as bad as undernutrition, in my opinion. You are going to get problems with too much iron or calcium just as you would with too little. Won't be the same problems, but they will occur. I try to avoid excess nutrients, and any food that's got a ton of certain minerals in it I will not feed long-term. But that's just me, and I'm OCD about this stuff.


----------



## Kibblelady (Jul 13, 2012)

InkedMarie said:


> I fed Annamaet for a short while, before buying pre made raw but i like everything I've heard about the company and the food. I will definitely choose Annamaet when i decide to add kibble back in.


I absolutely love the plant Annamaet is made in, OPH.


----------



## Kibblelady (Jul 13, 2012)

Losech said:


> Go to instinct's website and look at the mineral levels. They are posted on the page for each formula.
> They are a bit excessive in some areas compared to the most recent recommendations by the NRC. Overnutrition is just as bad as undernutrition, in my opinion. You are going to get problems with too much iron or calcium just as you would with too little. Won't be the same problems, but they will occur. I try to avoid excess nutrients, and any food that's got a ton of certain minerals in it I will not feed long-term. But that's just me, and I'm OCD about this stuff.



Okay, I'm trying here but the page I found the NRC recommendations is showing the ratios in a different measurement than the ones for the food... is there somewhere that makes this easier to compare as that would take a while to to do a conversion  Such as the NV site is using mg/kg but the NRC chart I have is using units per 100g of dry matter... ugh lol there are 100g in a kilogram... so this would be time consuming lol


----------



## Losech (Jul 10, 2012)

Kibblelady said:


> Okay, I'm trying here but the page I found the NRC recommendations is showing the ratios in a different measurement than the ones for the food... is there somewhere that makes this easier to compare as that would take a while to to do a conversion  Such as the NV site is using mg/kg but the NRC chart I have is using units per 100g of dry matter... ugh lol there are 100g in a kilogram... so this would be time consuming lol


It's kindof a long process, but I was easily able to do it since I normally make homemade food and already had all the information plotted out. Anyways, you can see how I got the numbers and use them to calculate out stuff on this page: 
The Adventures of Conker the Shiba Inu: Using Nutritiondata.com to balance home-made dog food

Basically, I use a website called Nutritiondata.com and instead of inputting human numbers, I put in the numbers for my dog I got off the 2006 NRC spreadsheet on that page. Then I went to Instinct's website and got the nutrient analysis, converted what I had to, and punched it into ND as a "custom food". That way I can see exactly how many nutrients are in X grams of food and how many grams my particular dog needs.
A trend I have noticed is that a lot of higher quality foods have a ton of iron in them, which is probably due to the higher meat content. A good number of them are also high in calcium, sodium, vitamin A, and some B vitamins. I generally do not worry about the B's, they are water soluble and excess usually just gets peed out.
That is why I don't like to feed just one brand. I'd rather avoid long-term excess of stuff like iron which can mess with other mineral absorption.


----------



## chowder (Sep 7, 2008)

RedneckCowgirl said:


> I can get chicken for super cheap, but haven't been able to find much lately in the way of deals for other proteins so I think I am going to stick to the 50/50 that my dogs are on now, except only feed raw chicken and organs (unless I find a good deal) and feed a rotation of non-chicken based kibbles. These are the kibbles that I am looking at:
> Innova Prime Grain Free Beef & Lamb Meal
> Annamaet Manitok Red Meat Formula
> Nature's Variety Instinct Salmon Meal Formula
> ...


If I were doing half raw and half kibble, I would chose a kibble with the least amount of ingredients as possible. That way going back and forth would not be such a big change. For example, if you used Evo instead of Innova , it is the same company but there is more meat and less lentils and vegies in the Evo. 

When I had Shade on half and half, that is the way I did it. I also used a lot of all meat or 95% meat canned foods and both my guys did great on that mixed with raw. ( I got them by the case with coupons for pretty reasonable). As a side note, both of them can still have canned 95% meat or mostly meat kibbles without any digestion problems and I think it is because we did half and half for awhile.


----------



## RedneckCowgirl (Oct 28, 2011)

chowder said:


> If I were doing half raw and half kibble, I would chose a kibble with the least amount of ingredients as possible. That way going back and forth would not be such a big change. For example, if you used Evo instead of Innova , it is the same company but there is more meat and less lentils and vegies in the Evo.


This is why I always ask for opinion on here, I never would have thought of that! But now that you mention it that totally makes sense!


----------



## InkedMarie (Sep 9, 2011)

Kibblelady said:


> I absolutely love the plant Annamaet is made in, OPH.


OPH? What is that?


----------



## Kibblelady (Jul 13, 2012)

InkedMarie said:


> OPH? What is that?


Ohio Pet Foods, it is a manufacturing company that does private label as well as their own. EU cert.


----------



## Unosmom (May 3, 2009)

Uno eats 50/50 as well, he gets dry in the morning (right now its horizon legacy salmon) and raw at night. Out of the ones you listed, I only tried NV, but as others have said, the ash content may be an issue. I think nutrisource grain free lamb is a good food, but theres a pretty drastic difference in protein % between large breed (23%) Vs regular (28%), I personally would go with higher protein since it appears to have more meat.


----------



## InkedMarie (Sep 9, 2011)

Kibblelady said:


> Ohio Pet Foods, it is a manufacturing company that does private label as well as their own. EU cert.


OH! LOL, I should have known that!


----------



## Kibblelady (Jul 13, 2012)

InkedMarie said:


> OH! LOL, I should have known that!



Its okay  lol Too many acronyms these days


----------



## skadoosh (Jun 11, 2012)

I have my girl on half and half as well. She gets Acana Ranchlands right now and a chicken quarter usually in the evening. I am thinking of keeping her on this long term. I don't think a dog should JUST eat kibble it's entire life but I dont know the science of raw well enough to do it 100% of the time.


----------



## monster'sdad (Jul 29, 2012)

RedneckCowgirl said:


> I can get chicken for super cheap, but haven't been able to find much lately in the way of deals for other proteins so I think I am going to stick to the 50/50 that my dogs are on now, except only feed raw chicken and organs (unless I find a good deal) and feed a rotation of non-chicken based kibbles. These are the kibbles that I am looking at:
> Innova Prime Grain Free Beef & Lamb Meal
> Annamaet Manitok Red Meat Formula
> Nature's Variety Instinct Salmon Meal Formula
> ...


Add Dr. Tim's Pursuit or Momentum to your list


----------



## monster'sdad (Jul 29, 2012)

Kibblelady said:


> Ohio Pet Foods, it is a manufacturing company that does private label as well as their own. EU cert.


Dr. Tim's is made at Ohio Pet Food as well. It is the best plant in North America without a doubt. There own label is Blackwood which they took over a few years back. Blackwood is a small brand. Verus is also made there.

Every bag you open is exactly the same, same color, same kibble size, same great smell. Great quality control.


----------



## InkedMarie (Sep 9, 2011)

monster'sdad said:


> Dr. Tim's is made at Ohio Pet Food as well. It is the best plant in North America without a doubt. There own label is Blackwood which they took over a few years back. Blackwood is a small brand. Verus is also made there.
> 
> Every bag you open is exactly the same, same color, same kibble size, same great smell. Great quality control.


I fed Blackwood years back when you could only order it direct from them; now I see it at my local pet store.


----------



## Kibblelady (Jul 13, 2012)

monster'sdad said:


> Dr. Tim's is made at Ohio Pet Food as well. It is the best plant in North America without a doubt. There own label is Blackwood which they took over a few years back. Blackwood is a small brand. Verus is also made there.
> 
> Every bag you open is exactly the same, same color, same kibble size, same great smell. Great quality control.


Totally agree with you.  I just found out about Dr. Tims 2 weeks ago, nice to know there is another option if I need it.


----------



## Kibblelady (Jul 13, 2012)

InkedMarie said:


> I fed Blackwood years back when you could only order it direct from them; now I see it at my local pet store.


Yes, the family sold the label to the manufacturer OPH. They have made some changes.... not sure how I feel about it and the price has gone up but they are adding some things to the line etc. I am sad to know I will never see that Blackwood bag art again


----------



## monster'sdad (Jul 29, 2012)

RedneckCowgirl said:


> Lower carbs, yes. What do you mean a reference? I would prefer to have at least two meat meals before a non meat protein source, if that is what your asking


The number of meals before the carbohydrate & fat sources is not important. This is how really bad dog food companies take advantage of consumers, by stacking smaller amounts of protein to create the appearance of higher protein. What is important is the the overall level or protein and the amount of protein from animal sources. And don't think GF foods have lower amounts of carbohydrates and high levels of protein. Any food with pea or potato protein as separate ingredients is not a quality food. These concentrates can be as much as 90% protein. Lentils and chickpeas are about 30% protein. 

However, brown rice is at most 3% protein and corn is at most 8%. Many grain inclusive foods will have much higher protein from animal sources than many GF foods. The worst offenders are Nutrisource & Earthborn, these foods are stuffed with vegetable protein.

One food I use Dr. Tim's Momentum, has 95% of protein from animal sources AND is 35% protein AND only 6% ash. Brown rice is the second ingredient, but keep reading the label. Low ash herring meal and whole dried egg are very light so they show up later in the list. I like to explain labeling this way when it comes to grains. Assume that the whole bag was brown rice, the maximum protein of the food is limited to 3%. If you use that approach with pea protein, potato protein and lentils, the food would be 90% protein and 30% protein, respectfully. 

There is no way a 35/25 food like Momentum or a 30/20 food like Pursuit could be "grain heavy". Momentum has about the same carbs by calories as EVO. Pursuit is about 27%.

So when you decide on a food, the label can be very deceiving, so think carefully.


----------



## InkedMarie (Sep 9, 2011)

Kibblelady said:


> Yes, the family sold the label to the manufacturer OPH. They have made some changes.... not sure how I feel about it and the price has gone up but they are adding some things to the line etc. I am sad to know I will never see that Blackwood bag art again


Cherri, did you feed Blackwoods too? I remember way back on either the CBB or the aol nutrition board, someone told me about it; maybe it was you


----------



## monster'sdad (Jul 29, 2012)

InkedMarie said:


> Cherri, did you feed Blackwoods too? I remember way back on either the CBB or the aol nutrition board, someone told me about it; maybe it was you


Even when Blackwood was owned by the people in South Carolina, they just copied Annamaet. Annamaet made the first GF's at Ohio Pet and all the other companies copied Annamaet again. 

Dr. Tim's is a very original food, very technical and very well though out. If I didn't use Dr. Tim's, I would use Annamaet. People that love dogs, owe a lot to Rob Downey. Most people don't know how important his research at Penn was. The people at Champion were careful not to quote his work because he is still alive and actually a young man. They quote the dead guys like Kronfeld out of context so they don't get sued. Pretty shameful.


----------



## skadoosh (Jun 11, 2012)

monster'sdad said:


> Even when Blackwood was owned by the people in South Carolina, they just copied Annamaet. Annamaet made the first GF's at Ohio Pet and all the other companies copied Annamaet again.
> 
> Dr. Tim's is a very original food, very technical and very well though out. If I didn't use Dr. Tim's, I would use Annamaet. People that love dogs, owe a lot to Rob Downey. Most people don't know how important his research at Penn was. The people at Champion were careful not to quote his work because he is still alive and actually a young man. They quote the dead guys like Kronfeld out of context so they don't get sued. Pretty shameful.


May I ask what you have against champion?


----------



## SaharaNight Boxers (Jun 28, 2011)

skadoosh said:


> May I ask what you have against champion?


Probably just another Dr. Tim advocate.


----------



## meggels (May 30, 2010)

monster'sdad said:


> The number of meals before the carbohydrate & fat sources is not important. This is how really bad dog food companies take advantage of consumers, by stacking smaller amounts of protein to create the appearance of higher protein. What is important is the the overall level or protein and the amount of protein from animal sources. And don't think GF foods have lower amounts of carbohydrates and high levels of protein. Any food with pea or potato protein as separate ingredients is not a quality food. These concentrates can be as much as 90% protein. Lentils and chickpeas are about 30% protein.
> 
> However, brown rice is at most 3% protein and corn is at most 8%. Many grain inclusive foods will have much higher protein from animal sources than many GF foods. The worst offenders are Nutrisource & Earthborn, these foods are stuffed with vegetable protein.
> 
> ...



The mention of Nutrisource or Earthborn makes me quite sad lol...


----------



## Shamrockmommy (Sep 10, 2009)

I have tried MANY different foods for my girls. Lately I have been really, really happy with Fromm Four Star Grain Free. I rotate but since you asked about the Beef Frittata Veg, yes, my girls have done very well on that one! Their coats are just amazingly full, soft, shiny, wonderful to touch. 
I do half kibble, half The HOnest Kitchen (Zeal or Love) OR raw (like halshan's or bravo or occasionally make my own). And I offer RMBs to the girls for teeth.

They look wonderful. On full raw, they didn't look as nice as they do now, so something good is coming from this combo! Hope this helps!


----------



## ajcstr (May 24, 2010)

Nature's Variety Salmon uses Menadione as its source of vitamin K


----------



## StellaLucyDesi (Oct 29, 2008)

ajcstr said:


> Nature's Variety Salmon uses Menadione as its source of vitamin K


It does? Hmmm....just curious, I don't/won't feed this food but was wondering what is the ingredient called. I looked at their website under the ingredients and didn't see anything that resembled Menadione.


----------

