# Advised Differently...



## BrownieM (Aug 30, 2010)

I joined another raw feeding group that promotes strictly prey model raw. In my intro I mentioned that I am new to raw feeding and that I am currently in the phase of feeding raw chicken backs. I received responses saying that they are much too bony and I should switch to quarters ASAP.

What are your thoughts on this?


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## Liz (Sep 27, 2010)

*Backs*

Every group has something different. I take what I can use and ignore the rest. My dogs were on backs for about 1 week then I alternated backs one day and quarters the next. The third week I added some chicken hearts and the fourth week chicken livers and gizzards. We went to cornish game hens, then turkey, pork, beef, lamb and duck necks. If I see any loose stools I go right back to chicken backs for a couple of days to firm things up. The precentages are guidlelines, my dogs need a bit more bone to maintain firm stools, I adjust by how they are doing and keep us the variety that we have already introduced. They are doing great and once you get to two or three proteins you will have more confidence.


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## BrownieM (Aug 30, 2010)

I would like to add that the other group or "list" feels quite unpleasant. Perhaps it is because it is new and I am accustomed to the environment here. But something about having my posts moderated until I prove that I can "sign my name" at the end feels a bit condescending to me. I don't like people treating me like I am five!

Also, if anyone even MENTIONS veggies the admin. comes and tells you it is "off topic." I haven't mentioned veggies, but I have seen it happen. 

Can I just say that I really like THIS forum!


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## jjcj (Nov 26, 2010)

Yes lots of great information here i am likeing it as well


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## RachelsaurusRexU (Sep 4, 2010)

LOL I've been to forums like that, not pertaining to raw diets, but just the general feeling... I definitely prefer it here!

As for backs, I still feed them weekly as one of their boney meals. ANY bone-in meat is going to be "too boney" if you feed to much of it, but it's all about balance. There aren't many steadfast rules to raw. I don't know why people act like that, it's snooty and obnoxious. Plus, you just started...you *should* be feeding bone-heavy right now. You're doing just fine, nevermind those people!


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## Ania's Mommy (Feb 8, 2009)

The reason that backs are recommended initially is BECAUSE they are so bone heavy, and many times, newly transitioning dogs experience loose stools. Bone helps firm them up.

Digesting PMR is so much different than digesting kibble. It sometimes takes a dog's body a while to get used to it. And that in itself can cause cannon butt. Increasing the bone ratio at this point can help prevent that.

Lots of people transition on quarters with no problems. But if they are accessible, I always recommend backs.

Is a chicken back an ideal meal for a fully transitioned dog? Probably not on a regular basis. Is it necessary to keep feeding chicken backs forever? I don't. They're too hard to find for me. And the ones I did find didn't look nearly as good as yours. :wink: But in the beginning? I think they're the best.


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## Katie Chumlee and Shorty (Oct 22, 2010)

They didn't see those nice meaty backs you got at whole foods did they?? hmmm?!!! When they think of backs they are probably thinking of the really bony ones like I got from my butcher my dogs only had about 10 lbs of those alternated with quarters if that then went on to quarters...they were just full of fat and bone, they were crappy ones


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## DaneMama (Jun 27, 2008)

Yep, there are some really up tight raw feeding communities out there. This forum is "home" to me and is my favorite that I've been apart of. The few other experiences I've had other places, they have been much different and a lot more "business" and no fun. I was banned from the Great Dane Club of America's Dane forum for posting a link to our PMR website...so apparently sharing valuable resources isn't allowed there (because there is a link to here on there). I was basically shunned and Jon was banned from the biggest raw feeding group (link below) for using the "prey model raw" description of raw feeding because the general consensus there is that it is inappropriate to use. To me...these things are trivial and not a reason to be so nit picky. People are here to help and that is all that matters. And I will help whoever has a question or concern :biggrin:

rawfeeding : Raw Feeding for dogs and cats!


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## BrownieM (Aug 30, 2010)

danemama08 said:


> Yep, there are some really up tight raw feeding communities out there. This forum is "home" to me and is my favorite that I've been apart of. The few other experiences I've had other places, they have been much different and a lot more "business" and no fun. I was banned from the Great Dane Club of America's Dane forum for posting a link to our PMR website...so apparently sharing valuable resources isn't allowed there (because there is a link to here on there). I was basically shunned and Jon was banned from the biggest raw feeding group (link below) for using the "prey model raw" description of raw feeding because the general consensus there is that it is inappropriate to use. To me...these things are trivial and not a reason to be so nit picky. People are here to help and that is all that matters. And I will help whoever has a question or concern :biggrin:
> 
> rawfeeding : Raw Feeding for dogs and cats!


Ugh. That is the group that I am referring to!


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## BrownieM (Aug 30, 2010)

The nitpickiness of that group could really turn someone off raw....


Is it really that bad to feed chicken backs???? Its not like my dogs are constipated....they have been pooping 1-2 times daily!


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## luvMyBRT (Mar 8, 2010)

I also made the mistake of joining that group too. I think I posted once and never went back. They too told me to stay away from backs and that I needed to switch to quarters immediately. I followed what people here said and everything was great. I agree with Natalie, it feels like home here. :biggrin:


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## BrownieM (Aug 30, 2010)

danemama08 said:


> Yep, there are some really up tight raw feeding communities out there. This forum is "home" to me and is my favorite that I've been apart of. The few other experiences I've had other places, they have been much different and a lot more "business" and no fun. I was banned from the Great Dane Club of America's Dane forum for posting a link to our PMR website...so apparently sharing valuable resources isn't allowed there (because there is a link to here on there). I was basically shunned and Jon was banned from the biggest raw feeding group (link below) for using the "prey model raw" description of raw feeding because the general consensus there is that it is inappropriate to use. To me...these things are trivial and not a reason to be so nit picky. People are here to help and that is all that matters. And I will help whoever has a question or concern :biggrin:
> 
> rawfeeding : Raw Feeding for dogs and cats!


They said that 'prey model raw' is an inappropriate term in general? Or for the way you were specifically feeding? They refer to it as "whole prey model" or something of the sort. I am very confused...Here on DFC I feel as though there is flexibility and less concern over following it BY THE BOOKS. Why is it so "by the books" other places?


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## cast71 (Sep 16, 2010)

danemama08 said:


> I was basically shunned and Jon was banned from the biggest raw feeding group (link below) for using the "prey model raw" description of raw feeding because the general consensus there is that it is inappropriate to use.[/url]


Hi, I was curious of the difference between PMR and what the raw feeding yahoo group recommends. I learned how to feed raw from that list. That was like in 2005. I thought I learned PMR feeding Basically try to feed whole animals and as much variety as possible. I'm guessing that list has changed??? Haven't been on there in like 3 or 4 years. They were very helpful to me, but that was a while back. I do remember them always threatening to ban people, and your post had to be in proper order. I've heard the saying "raw nazi's" on the net. I think I'm getting the picture:biggrin:


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## jdatwood (Apr 13, 2009)

Apparently Tom Lonsdale doesn't support the term "Prey Model Raw".... that's why they're against it


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## BrownieM (Aug 30, 2010)

cast71 said:


> Hi, I was curious of the difference between PMR and what the raw feeding yahoo group recommends. I learned how to feed raw from that list. That was like in 2005. I thought I learned PMR feeding Basically try to feed whole animals and as much variety as possible. I'm guessing that list has changed??? Haven't been on there in like 3 or 4 years. They were very helpful to me, but that was a while back. I do remember them always threatening to ban people, and your post had to be in proper order. I've heard the saying "raw nazi's" on the net. I think I'm getting the picture:biggrin:


I keep forgetting to sign my name at the end and "trim the message before mine". I am probably going to get banned LOL.


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## cast71 (Sep 16, 2010)

So "whole prey model" and "prey model raw" mean the same?


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## BrownieM (Aug 30, 2010)

jdatwood said:


> Apparently Tom Lonsdale doesn't support the term "Prey Model Raw".... that's why they're against it


Interesting...Sometimes taking things too literally is just not necessary...

Just curious though, why would he not support the term "prey model raw?". What is wrong with that wording?


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## jdatwood (Apr 13, 2009)

BrownieM said:


> I keep forgetting to sign my name at the end and "trim the message before mine". I am probably going to get banned LOL.


I personally hate email based groups. They were great when created but these days with forums are so outdated...


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## cast71 (Sep 16, 2010)

BrownieM said:


> I keep forgetting to sign my name at the end and "trim the message before mine". I am probably going to get banned LOL.


Now your bringing back memories, I use to get reprimanded for that if I remember correctly ahahahaaha I think I started following orders, because I needed help. My dog was sick at the time.


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## jdatwood (Apr 13, 2009)

BrownieM said:


> Interesting...Sometimes taking things too literally is just not necessary...
> 
> Just curious though, why would he not support the term "prey model raw?". What is wrong with that wording?


Here it is in his own words directly from his newsletter



> Prey Model Cult
> __________________________________________________________________________
> 
> Have you heard of the so-called Prey Model diet — that obsession with
> ...


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## BrownieM (Aug 30, 2010)

Wow...lots of politics...

I am also even more confused after reading that. Do other raw feeders (like the yahoo group) promote a ratio different from 80/10/10? Why does Lonsdale call that ratio bizarre? And isn't Lonsdale referred to as a major reference for this prey model diet here on DFC? Is the RMB diet that Lonsdale supports and PMR diet supported here the same, but with a different name? Or are they different?

And honestly, the yahoo group is what _really_ feels like a cult!


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## jdatwood (Apr 13, 2009)

RFD has actually spoken to Tom so he could shed some light on it...

and yes, the Yahoo group does feel like a cult with too many rules


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## DaneMama (Jun 27, 2008)

BrownieM said:


> Wow...lots of politics...
> 
> I am also even more confused after reading that. Do other raw feeders (like the yahoo group) promote a ratio different from 80/10/10? Why does Lonsdale call that ratio bizarre? And isn't Lonsdale referred to as a major reference for this prey model diet here on DFC? Is the RMB diet that Lonsdale supports and PMR diet supported here the same, but with a different name? Or are they different?
> 
> And honestly, the yahoo group is what _really_ feels like a cult!


Yeah too many politics for me too and the attitude is a real turnoff for the raw movement as a whole. While Tom had the original written idea of the raw meaty bones/whole prey model feeding style which is what we base our foundations on, it seems to me now that his focus has strayed a bit from the general reasons of why we all raw feed. Instead hes battling those of us who feed "prey model" because of wording choice. Seems too trivial to really be worthwhile. 

The 80/10/10 ratio was established to make those people who don't feel comfortable with the "mostly meat, some bone and some organ" guideline have something tangible to follow. Some people just do better knowing a set numerical guideline they can follow, which I totally understand, and to me if that's what it takes to have those people comfortable with the switch then so be it. Because in the end the "mostly meat, some bone and some organ" probably equals out approximately to the 80/10/10 ratio, or so darn close it doesnt even matter. 

Either way, I wouldn't think much of this whole split in the raw community because the actual difference between the raw meaty bones diet and the prey model raw diet are so small that it doesn't make a difference in the end. To me the only difference is the wording for it. I personally believe that prey model raw encompasses not only what we feed but also why we feed what we do. We "model" what dogs would be eating in the wild of "prey" animals. So it describes why (modeling prey animal composition ~80/10/10) and what we feed (raw meaty bones). 

Hope this helps clear things up!


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## SamWu1 (Oct 15, 2010)

The Yahoo groups are ridiculous. In theory, "authentic" prey model is the entire prey animal completely unaltered, i.e. feathers, fur, heads, intestines, reproductive organs, everything and let the dog at it.

80/10/10 is retarded. What animal has 10% bone? I feed 25-30% and the poop looks perfect. Take your time, use a variety of meats, organs and RMB's and find out what works best for *your* dog.

I know alot of budget minded people with working dogs that feed nothing but chicken rib bones (frames) along with scraps of beef and chicken organs for years and those dogs look spectacular. They probably get bathed once a year besides swimming in the lake and their coats shimmer and eyes are bright and clear. 

The frames my butcher sells looks pretty dang meaty to me. $21.00 for a 40lbs. case. Way cheaper and worlds better than any kibble (yes, even Orijen).


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## sassymaxmom (Dec 7, 2008)

80/10/10 can feed a dog to NRC requirements, completely baffled as to why that would be a bizarre diet. You can feed at least 20% bone and be within AAFCO requirements. EVO is 2% calcium which is about the same as 20% bone. This week Max has been getting 15% bone as I accidently thawed a bag of chicken head/necks instead of chicken head/necks/liver/gizzard. I try to take the 10% bone as looking for poops that can be picked up but aren't necessarily very firm.

A well planned BARF diet can fit into NRC or AAFCO just fine but who wants to do the work and how boring for the dog! I hate even feeding sardine/rabbit grind to Max, much as he adores the gunk.

Feeding skinned, defatted backs is just a precaution as most folks dislike picking up dog poop at the best of times and messy poop isn't fun to deal with. Problem is some folks won't move on when the dog is ready as they are happy with the cheap bony stuff and don't realize that more expensive meaty stuff and organ and all will really put their pet into top shape.


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## Doc (Jan 17, 2009)

jdatwood said:


> RFD has actually spoken to Tom so he could shed some light on it...
> 
> and yes, the Yahoo group does feel like a cult with too many rules


Sounds like I need to visit the aholes! roflmao I'm so non confrontational ...:biggrin:


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## RachelsaurusRexU (Sep 4, 2010)

sassymaxmom said:


> 80/10/10 can feed a dog to NRC requirements, completely baffled as to why that would be a bizarre diet. You can feed at least 20% bone and be within AAFCO requirements. EVO is 2% calcium which is about the same as 20% bone. This week Max has been getting 15% bone as I accidently thawed a bag of chicken head/necks instead of chicken head/necks/liver/gizzard. I try to take the 10% bone as looking for poops that can be picked up but aren't necessarily very firm.
> 
> A well planned BARF diet can fit into NRC or AAFCO just fine but who wants to do the work and how boring for the dog! I hate even feeding sardine/rabbit grind to Max, much as he adores the gunk.
> 
> Feeding skinned, defatted backs is just a precaution as most folks dislike picking up dog poop at the best of times and messy poop isn't fun to deal with. Problem is some folks won't move on when the dog is ready as they are happy with the cheap bony stuff and don't realize that more expensive meaty stuff and organ and all will really put their pet into top shape.


Wait, so is it not okay to continue to use backs for bone content? I use them once a week, but my dogs get plenty of boneless meals around their bone meals and plenty of variety...


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## RawFedDogs (Jun 16, 2008)

Yes, chicken backs are ok to feed for bone content. I feed each of my dogs a back a day. I don't skin nor trim them in any way. They get them the way they come out of the box.


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## RawFedDogs (Jun 16, 2008)

jdatwood said:


> RFD has actually spoken to Tom so he could shed some light on it...


Yes, I had a few conversationsn w/ Tom several years ago about this subject. IMO he is kindof overboard on terminoligy. "Prey model diet", "Raw meaty bones diet", "Frankenprey diet", "Whole prey diet" are all so close as to be identical. "BARF" diet is not so much different as to be a real big deal. Tom seems to think the differences are significant. I don't. 

I don't get all hung up in terminology. We are all feeding our dogs raw meat, bones, and organs. A few feed veggies or veggie slop. Sometimes some of us feed whole carcasses. Some supplement heavily. Nutritionally, there is so little difference as to be insignificant. It doesn't really matter which you feed, just so you feed raw meat, bones, and organs. Mostly meat, some bone, and some organs. 80/10/10 is baloney. It is really a lot of work to feed as little as 10% bone. Most all animal parts have more bone than that in them.



> and yes, the Yahoo group does feel like a cult with too many rules


Tom is not big on the Yahoo group and they are not so big on him either, generally. They had a falling out several years ago, mostly over the cultness (is that a word?), rules, and rigidity. 

I have been a member of that group almost since it began. I think there were less than 200 members when I joined. If you could go back that far and read posts, they would be the exact same answers back then (about 8 or 9 years ago) as they are now word for word. Everything is very exact with no allowance or variance.

*ETA:* After reading a few more posts that Jon's that I quoted here, I see he made another post that says the same thing as this one only he words his better. :biggrin:


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## RawFedDogs (Jun 16, 2008)

sassymaxmom said:


> 80/10/10 can feed a dog to NRC requirements, completely baffled as to why that would be a bizarre diet.
> 
> A well planned BARF diet can fit into NRC or AAFCO just fine but who wants to do the work and how boring for the dog! I hate even feeding sardine/rabbit grind to Max, much as he adores the gunk.


Here is a good page that explains AAFCO standards, how they were arrived at and what they mean.

Myths About Raw: What about raw diets and the AAFCO standards?


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## 3Musketeers (Nov 4, 2010)

Why so strict? Ego problem much?
That's just what it sounds like when someone claims to know *exactly* what a dog or any animal should be fed. I mean exactly as in the exact proportions of bone/organs etc.

Really? When has anyone ever seen a wolf out in the wild lugging around a weight scale to perfectly proportion his meals?

Edit: Clarification, referring to that certain group, not anyone on here.


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## sassymaxmom (Dec 7, 2008)

Chicken backs are one of Max's favorite bits. He likes them better than any other bony chicken cut. I always cut them out of the chickens we eat and give it to him. They are just part of his food now. 

If I get to transition another dog to raw I will be feeding a skinned, defatted back for at least the first couple meals. It makes complete sense to me especially as I would be picking a dog from the shelter who has been eating cheap high fiber kibble. Low quality kibbles are high waste, low protein, low fat foods and a skinned, defatted chicken back comes close to that.

AAFCO is based on old info then they added in a useless and optional feeding trial, NRC has moved on. Since I am not feeding much wild whole prey it is a crutch and endlessly interesting how feeding that meat/bone/organ contains all that my dog needs. If anybody questions my dog's diet I have numbers for them. Not everybody buys the dogs are wolves thing and comparing the raw diet to accepted AAFCO/NRC levels might be more acceptable to those people.


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## isabellak (Oct 26, 2010)

Brownie,
I joined a group like that in the beginning, maybe the same one. Their advice set me back a month. I needed to go slowly with Lily and they made me feel as though I was killing her by feeding her chicken backs for a week. I stopped visiting that group. They were uptight, angry and their responses to people like us, just starting out, were often cruel. The support here is non-judgmental and always helpful.


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## spookychick13 (Jan 26, 2010)

I belong to that group as well, but pretty much ignore it completely.
Everything I've learned about raw I learned from the awesome, helpful people here!

I did start with chicken quarters, personally, but I couldn't find backs...that's the only reason.


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## SpooOwner (Oct 1, 2010)

I think the only thing I got from that group was a link to my local raw feeding group + coop. However, I did find some useful info on the rawpup yahoo group and Lew Olson's K9 Nutrition group. Both are less dogmatic than the rawfeeding group.


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## SerenityFL (Sep 28, 2010)

jdatwood said:


> Here it is in his own words directly from his newsletter


"Some people use the term RMB diet and Prey Model diet interchangeably. By
blurring the edges those who plagiarise the RMB information gain some
illicit credibility —- they use stolen goods as if they were the rightful
owners. However, the majority of people calling themselves Prey Modellers
should not be blamed. They don’t know the history and are prevented from
knowing the detail. They are victims of the Prey Model leadership’s
ambitions."

Stolen goods? Rightful owners? Oh for God's sake. How is it possible to "steal" a fricken natural diet that wolves have consumed for EVER? 

The "rightful owners" are the wolves. 

Is there a "rolls eyes until they fall out of their sockets" smilie here? 

And I am really disgusted that this idiot would refer to people like me as "victims". We are not "victims". Over dramatize much, pal?


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## RawFedDogs (Jun 16, 2008)

SerenityFL said:


> Stolen goods? Rightful owners? Oh for God's sake. How is it possible to "steal" a fricken natural diet that wolves have consumed for EVER?


I THINK, but I'm not 100% sure that Ian Billinghurst owns the name "BARF". He makes and sells BARF pre-mix paddies. However "BARF" is the name of a diet that he formulated that is made up of RMB's, muscle meat, and veggie slop. I can't remember the percentages. I THINK its 50% RMB, 30% muscle meat and 20% veggie slop(pureed veggies). It was introduced in Ian's book Give Your Dog a Bone back in 1993.

Both being Australians, Tom and Ian were cohorts years ago pioneering in the raw feeding world. Somewhere along the line they had disagreements and split. Ian went the way of BARF with his veggies and Tom when the way of raw meaty bones.

As you can tell I'm not 100% confident of the information in this post. :biggrin:


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

BrownieM said:


> I joined another raw feeding group that promotes strictly prey model raw. In my intro I mentioned that I am new to raw feeding and that I am currently in the phase of feeding raw chicken backs. I received responses saying that they are much too bony and I should switch to quarters ASAP.
> 
> What are your thoughts on this?


i saw your thread.....

i remember joining that group...i still read the digests......i did feed my dogs the way it was advised, starting with chicken quarters...

my dogs had cannon butt for weeks...

everyone has an opinion, brownie and i respect that....

and not every dog reacts as both of mine did....

but what they're not taking into account, in my opinion....is that newbies are scared......

we've heard so many negatives about raw that doing raw is frightening to us.

so when my dog is shooting black ink out of her butt, i think i'm killing her.

when my dog is throwing up bone shards, i think i'm killing him.

when i came to this forum....my dogs stopped having cannon butt, stopped throwing up....and even though they had bone shards in their stools....the explanations made sense.

i believe the other group is very knowledgeable but also very hard core and doesn't explain the changes our dogs have to go through for the first year of raw feeding....most of us have kind of shaky hands for the first three or four months, at least....

to have the same advice repeated time after time, no matter what, to me...is counterproductive....but to have bill, in a private email, say feed skinless, organless, fatless chicken backs for a week because their digestive systems need time to adjust and change their pH...made perfect sense...and that's what i did.

we are now almost 10 months in..and no, they don't get chicken backs very often anymore...because they are adapting.

their teeth are stronger, their jaws are stronger, the acids in their stomachs has changed, their necks are stronger....they are different now and can handle things.

i read posts from newbies on that list and i shudder sometimes...because i know i gave up after the black liquid squirts and vomiting and bones.....i didn't it was normal. i thought i had killed my dogs.

the support from this forum....is awesome.....and comes up with ideas to help us understand the whys of things.....and hold our hands as we wade through the scary parts.....


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## Shamrockmommy (Sep 10, 2009)

It's not good enough that a person feeds a raw diet- now it is labeled and grouped- bah!
When I am asked what I feed my dogs, I say I feed a natural diet. If they press more, then I explain, mostly meat, some bone, some organs, and for one of my dogs, some veggie glop (or she eats the lawn- grass, roots, dirt and all). 
I think I'm on 3 raw feeding email lists, and I lurk on them most of the time, although Lew Olsen's book and email list have been more helpful than the others. 
And of course this forum has helped me learn my way through raw feeding. I admit I lurk most of the time but I have learned a bunch 

ETA: Got to thinking about a prior experience with a raw group that advocates using grains and tons of supplements. I was having issues with my bichons and then most recentely this summer, my PWD, and it was "oh it's an imbalance" and "There are no such things are allergies or intolerances" blah blah. Switched to raw my way and the red, itchy skin cleared up, cannon butt stopped, and things looked better. THey are also adamant that any other raw method of feeding is unbalanced and seriously flawed- it will kill your dog. (insert eye rolly here!)


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## BrownieM (Aug 30, 2010)

I did not receive a very warm welcome in the Yahoo raw group. I mentioned (because I was too naive to know that there were "fundamental differences" in the beliefs between DFC and Rawfeeding group) that I had learned to feed raw a certain way...with chicken backs (not knowing they believed differently) and now many people in that group have been telling me to "refer to my original raw feeding group" for answers to my questions and to stop trying to reach consensus between the two methods. I am literally so confused! I asked what the main fundamental differences are so I could understand and I received responses telling me to search the archives. :frown: 

Also, I was told by a member that they "question my intentions" and are saddened because they don't think I am being honest.  What ill intentions could they possibly think I have? 

I really shouldn't let myself get bothered by people on the internet that I will never actually know, but it still upsets me when A) people think I am dishonest for some unknown reason, and B) when people refuse to answer my questions because I have already learned from another group with differing beliefs. :frown:


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## cast71 (Sep 16, 2010)

Shamrockmommy said:


> ETA: Got to thinking about a prior experience with a raw group that advocates using grains and tons of supplements. I was having issues with my bichons and then most recentely this summer, my PWD, and it was "oh it's an imbalance" and "There are no such things are allergies or intolerances" blah blah. Switched to raw my way and the red, itchy skin cleared up, cannon butt stopped, and things looked better. THey are also adamant that any other raw method of feeding is unbalanced and seriously flawed- it will kill your dog. (insert eye rolly here!)


I had this owner of a pet shop, that my sister use to go, ask me questions about raw. He wanted to to start selling instinct raw. After I explained how I fed my dog, he told me it was unbalanced. I said how can A whole turkey including the organs and bones be unbalanced He was a little nasty about it, implying I didn't know what I was doing. After seeing how he did buisness, I realized it was simply buisness. The way I was feeding, would cut into his profits, since I was buying food at the grocery store. He was pissed that I was feeding raw, for 1/3 to 2/3 what it would cost, if I fed instinct. His answer was supplement it with instinct kibble. What an arse ahahahahaaha. He converted a few of his customers and started bringing in the freezers. He's probablly selling them around $150 to $200 worth of patties a month. Insane


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## cast71 (Sep 16, 2010)

BrownieM said:


> Also, I was told by a member that they "question my intentions" and are saddened because they don't think I am being honest.  What ill intentions could they possibly think I have?


Your a spy sent from DFC acting as a newbie ahahahahahahahaha


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## Shamrockmommy (Sep 10, 2009)

How sad. People can really get their knickers in a knot over feeding dogs. 

I have TONS of books, TONS. THey are on feeding dogs- so raw books, homecooking books, books with both types of diets. There are really really simple 'recipes' and super complex recipes that have sent me searching far and wide for just the right certain supplements.

NONE of the books can come to an agreement on the "right" way to feed a dog. It is completely confusing and nerve-wracking to say the least. 
So the most helpful books for me were first- Juliette De Baircli Levy's book, which helped me trust in a more simplified diet. Then I read Kymythy Shultz's book and _Raw Dog Food_ by Carina MacDonald. They are all fairly similar in feeding style. They made a lot of sense to me. My next favorite book has been Lew Olson's book _Raw and Natural Nutrition_.

So confused by all the books, I turned to raw feeding lists which were ALL different, some welcoming, others, not so much, as you know! I have come back to this forum the most and here is where I was able to grasp a good concept for feeding my dogs and they are thriving. 

So take the advice and information from the lists that make sense to YOU and your dogs and let all the rest go. 
And by the way, your spoo is gorgeous


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## DaneMama (Jun 27, 2008)

Which is why I like this group of people here so much. Accepting, friendly and helpful. Yes we may come across strongly about how we feel about raw but compared to other communities I think we keep is pretty low key and welcoming here!


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## SerenityFL (Sep 28, 2010)

For me it comes down to basic science. The more efficient the food, the less waste there will be.

Every single day that I take my dogs out for their walks and exercise, we have to go through the gauntlet of unpicked up dog poo left by others. Every single one of those piles looks horrific and huge. My dogs leave tiny, little bits that are hard and have no stench.

To me, that is proof that what they are getting is working. 

Add in all the other benefits, shiny fur, white teeth, more energy, beautiful muscle tone...even my little princess dog, Sakari, has these little legs filled with muscle...my God it's just so cute...only add to the fact that what I'm doing is right.

I had joined a few of those Yahoo groups when I first started raw and I have to agree, they are not as friendly as this forum. I haven't been back in months since I found this place.


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