# I've got ORIJEN's new formula!



## dog (Feb 23, 2013)

I'm excited that I just received two bags of the NEW potato free 6-fish formula from Chewy! :rockon: 

I recently started feeding Orijen 6-fish. I'm almost finished with my first bag of the OLD formula. My dogs are doing great on it. No stool problems; stools are firm and smaller than previous FROMM grain-free fish based and Wellness Core fish based. My senior dog has had skin problems all her life. I stay away from chicken. Fish based kibble has always worked out the best. She is doing great on Orijen so far. I'm glad to see potatoes have been removed from the formula since they can contribute to yeast problems. Here is some info right off the bag. Also, I asked Champion Petfoods a question regarding plant protein in the new formula....

Ingredients
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Whole Salmon (14%)
Whole Herring (11%)
Salmon Meal (11%)
Herring Meal (11%)
Pollock Meal (11%)
Whole Flounder (7%)
Boneless Walleye (3%)
Boneless Northern Pike (3%)
Boneless Lake Whitefish (3%)
Salmon Oil (3%)
Herring Oil (3%)

Chickpeas, Red Lentils, Green Lentils, Green Peas, Pea Fibre, Canola Oil, Sun-Cured Alfalfa, Yams, Pumpkin, Butternut Squash, Spinach Greens, Carrots, Red Delicious Apples, Bartlett Pears, Cranberries, Blueberries, Kelp, Licorice Root, Angelica Root, Fenugreek, Marigold Flowers, Sweet Fennel, Peppermint Leaf, Chamomile, Dandelion, Summer Savory, Rosemary, Vitamin A Supplement, Vitamin D3 Supplement, Vitamin E Supplement, Niacin, Riboflavin, Folic Acid, Biotin, Vitamin B12 Supplement, Zinc Proteinate, Iron Proteinate, Manganese Proteinate, Copper Proteinate, Selenium Yeast, Dried Enterococcus faecium Fermenation Product
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In the ingredient list, everything that falls below herring oil must be 3% or less for each ingredient. Therefore, chickpeas, red lentils, green lentils, green peas, pea fiber can not total more than 15%. They probably total much less. 

*I recently asked Champion Petfoods the following question:*
“What is the percentage of protein from meat sources in your new Orijen whole prey dry food? I am mostly interested in the 6-fish and regional red formulas. Just to make sure my question is clear, these formulas contain 38% protein. What percentage of that 38% is from meat sources (such as meat meal, fresh meat) and what percentage is from plant sources (such as lentils, peas, chickpeas). I realize the your website states that 80% of the ingredients come from meat sources, but still does not answer my question. I want to know what percent of the crude protein comes from meats sources?”

*Here is the answer I received:*
“All dry foods require some form of carbohydrate to hold the meat ingredients together. Biologically Appropriate ORIJEN features non-starchy locally grown vegetables that are extremely low on the glycemic index. Other important points to note include the following:



Lentils and chickpeas replace potatoes in all ORIJEN foods
Less than 1% of ORIJEN’s total protein content comes from plant source
100% of essential amino acids are delivered through Whole Prey meats, which means ORIJEN is completely free of synthetic amino acid supplements
Foods where plants contribute substantially to the overall protein content are easily identified as they feature synthetic amino acids L-lysine and DL-methionine in the ingredient list.

I hope that information is helpful, please let me know if there is anything else you need or that I can clarify for you.”


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## DaViking (Sep 27, 2011)

This would be 45% - 50% DM animal sourced ingredients, which is really pushing what is possible. Forget the 80/20, it's not 80% meat sources in the kibble.

Just another sidenote on accuracy from Champion. Corn and corn gluten meal, which both are plant products last time I checked, are excellent sources of natural occurring methionine. No need for supplements. Here is one example where there is no need to add any L-lysine or DL-methionine. That being said, the manufacturer better be darn sure there is enough naturally occurring methionine, *on a consistent basis*. A deficiency will eventually lead to illness and/or death. That's why some choose to add DL-methionine regardless what their data sheets say. For most good brands it have nothing to do what so ever with "plants contributing substantially to the overall protein content" That's pulling a fast one. It's a better safe than sorry thing, all natural products can sometimes be unpredictable. A synthetic form will always be dependable.


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## monster'sdad (Jul 29, 2012)

It is funny how I mentioned 6 Fish was being changed with added high protein legumes yesterday and this post shows up.

"Chickpeas, Red Lentils, Green Lentils, Green Peas"

A lot of protein is coming from those, plus lots of fiber.


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## dog (Feb 23, 2013)

Corn is a fine natural source of methionine, but none of the brands of my interest contain corn. Meats are very high in methionine. Fish is among the highest at around 1.5 gm per 200 calories. Beef is among the lower end of meats but still very high at about 1 gm per 200 calories. Turkey, pork, bison, and most other meats fall somewhere between beef and fish for methionine content. Raw and cooked meat have a high methionine content, very little methionine content is lost from cooking. 

Chickpeas, Red Lentils, Green Lentils, Green Peas are used as the carbohydrate source necessary to make kibble stick together. Depending on the source of info, chickpeas contain round 18% protein, lentils contain around 28% protein, and peas around 23%. There are very little of each of these ingredients included, 3% or less, just enough to make the kibble form/stick together. The fiber content in Orijen dry dog foods is MAX 5% according to the guaranteed analysis. 

Thank you both for contributing to the thread I started.

I look forward to hearing from those who are interested in trying out this formula!


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## monster'sdad (Jul 29, 2012)

dog said:


> Corn is a fine natural source of methionine, but none of the brands of my interest contain corn. Meats are very high in methionine. Fish is among the highest at around 1.5 gm per 200 calories. Beef is among the lower end of meats but still very high at about 1 gm per 200 calories. Turkey, pork, bison, and most other meats fall somewhere between beef and fish for methionine content. Raw and cooked meat have a high methionine content, very little methionine content is lost from cooking.
> 
> Chickpeas, Red Lentils, Green Lentils, Green Peas are used as the carbohydrate source necessary to make kibble stick together. Depending on the source of info, chickpeas contain round 18% protein, lentils contain around 28% protein, and peas around 23%. There are very little of each of these ingredients included, 3% or less, just enough to make the kibble form/stick together. The fiber content in Orijen dry dog foods is MAX 5% according to the guaranteed analysis.
> 
> ...



Doubtful it is just 3% each on a dry matter basis. Maybe pre-cooking given all the water in the pre-cooking weight. My guess is about 25%-30% legume when all is said and done.

The reason why four different legumes are being used is to make it appear there is less. If just lentils were used it would be too obvious.


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## whiteleo (Sep 7, 2008)

DaViking said:


> This would be 45% - 50% DM animal sourced ingredients, which is really pushing what is possible. Forget the 80/20, it's not 80% meat sources in the kibble.
> 
> Just another sidenote on accuracy from Champion. Corn and corn gluten meal, which both are plant products last time I checked, are excellent sources of natural occurring methionine. No need for supplements. Here is one example where there is no need to add any L-lysine or DL-methionine. That being said, the manufacturer better be darn sure there is enough naturally occurring methionine, *on a consistent basis*. A deficiency will eventually lead to illness and/or death. That's why some choose to add DL-methionine regardless what their data sheets say. For most good brands it have nothing to do what so ever with "plants contributing substantially to the overall protein content" That's pulling a fast one. It's a better safe than sorry thing, all natural products can sometimes be unpredictable. A synthetic form will always be dependable.


Do you really think they just throw crap in a vat and mix it up then process it. Don't you think there is a little more science behind the madness of making kibble?


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## whiteleo (Sep 7, 2008)

monster'sdad said:


> Doubtful it is just 3% each on a dry matter basis. Maybe pre-cooking given all the water in the pre-cooking weight. My guess is about 25%-30% legume when all is said and done.
> 
> The reason why four different legumes are being used is to make it appear there is less. If just lentils were used it would be too obvious.


I have a great source for getting this food, a boutique store and the owner has been to Champions plant many times. I will try this in a smaller quantity on my next foster, my current foster is on raw.


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## monster'sdad (Jul 29, 2012)

whiteleo said:


> Do you really think they just throw crap in a vat and mix it up then process it. Don't you think there is a little more science behind the madness of making kibble?


For some companies there is a lot of science, field testing, urine tests, fecal tests and endurance tests. Months if not years of development. Tinkering with ingredients, third party evaluation. I have done it, months of free food.

Some just buy formulas designed on a computer using ingredient databases. Some are designed in the marketing department to appeal to the target audience, which is single and married women. 

In some cases they do just throw crap in a mixer. With dogs, you can get away with a lot because they can pretty much eat anything. They are evolutionary garbage pickers.

I will bet if you put these new Orijen foods in a Shorthair, it will crap its brains out and lose weight over time.


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## PDXdogmom (Jun 30, 2010)

monster'sdad said:


> Doubtful it is just 3% each on a dry matter basis. Maybe pre-cooking given all the water in the pre-cooking weight. My guess is about 25%-30% legume when all is said and done.
> 
> The reason why four different legumes are being used is to make it appear there is less. If just lentils were used it would be too obvious.


Tend to agree with this. As a person who doesn't eat meat, I know I include lentils and chickpeas in much of my cooking for their protein value.

If a company wanted to retain the same percentage of animal protein but get rid of white potato as a binder, they simply could use the single carb of sweet potato which is healthier and doesn't really add protein. You only add lentils, chickpeas and to a lesser degree peas when you need to add more protein.


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## RawPitbulls (Feb 7, 2013)

I'm excited too!! I truly believe Orijen is a top notch kibble!


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## whiteleo (Sep 7, 2008)

monster'sdad said:


> For some companies there is a lot of science, field testing, urine tests, fecal tests and endurance tests. Months if not years of development. Tinkering with ingredients, third party evaluation. I have done it, months of free food.
> 
> Some just buy formulas designed on a computer using ingredient databases. Some are designed in the marketing department to appeal to the target audience, which is single and married women.
> 
> ...


Why don't you try it? then we'll talk


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## DaViking (Sep 27, 2011)

whiteleo said:


> Do you really think they just throw crap in a vat and mix it up then process it. Don't you think there is a little more science behind the madness of making kibble?


Lol, aren't some of you using the exact opposite argument for everyone else? Methionine is nothing to take lightly and Champion products have killed animals before. I am not accusing them of taking this lightly I am just providing more nuanced information on the subject of methionine. Anyways, I actually agree 100% so I don't get where you are going with this. I actually have not that much bad things to say about their regional red formula. Seen many active dogs and client's dogs do good on this formula. Not so much their other formulas. What irks many, me included, is their blatant and consistent disregard of accurate information. It's enough to be only somewhat knowledgeable in dog nutrition to spot all the spiel that means little in the end. For some that translates into dishonesty (some interpret that as ignorance but I chose dishonesty instead) and for that reason I will not support them. Sure, call it fundamentalism, at least I am not alone in having a fundamentalist side on this forum.


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## DaViking (Sep 27, 2011)

monster'sdad said:


> Doubtful it is just 3% each on a dry matter basis. Maybe pre-cooking given all the water in the pre-cooking weight. My guess is about 25%-30% legume when all is said and done.
> 
> The reason why four different legumes are being used is to make it appear there is less. If just lentils were used it would be too obvious.


When the wet animal ingredients, animal meals and animal oils are adjusted to dry matter to form "1 dry animal ingredient" the absolute maximum is 50% of the kibble, above this and the kibble will start to crumble and fall apart. The rest is NFE, plant proteins and other functional ingredients. So 50% of the kibble is other.


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## monster'sdad (Jul 29, 2012)

whiteleo said:


> Why don't you try it? then we'll talk


I have and it sucks. The only GF food that worked well was Annamaet Salcha. Why? Month and months of testing on his dogs and others as well as his experience.

I will give Dr. Tim's GF a whirl someday. I am sure his is good too probably great.

Orijen was a disaster. It is the only really expensive food I have ever used that cost more to feed, and my normally bullet proof dogs looked like they were starving. Even my wife, who normally doesn't say boo about them, commented. I was using Annamaet Ultra then I couldn't get it back fast enough.


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## meggels (May 30, 2010)

I'm really not a fan of Orijen. Just due to the fact that I don't see many dogs do well on it, and the price is just outrageous IMO. I was updating inventory with my friend at her store today and she was asking me about differences between the Orijen and Acana since bc of price increases, the large bag of Regional Red is now $90. I told her i would recommend Acana before Orijen always. They actually do seem to sell more Acana anyways.


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## dog (Feb 23, 2013)

DaViking said:


> Methionine is nothing to take lightly and Champion products have killed animals before.


Who's animals did they kill? Please provide those references.


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## whiteleo (Sep 7, 2008)

DaViking said:


> Lol, aren't some of you using the exact opposite argument for everyone else? Methionine is nothing to take lightly and Champion products have killed animals before. I am not accusing them of taking this lightly I am just providing more nuanced information on the subject of methionine. Anyways, I actually agree 100% so I don't get where you are going with this. I actually have not that much bad things to say about their regional red formula. Seen many active dogs and client's dogs do good on this formula. Not so much their other formulas. What irks many, me included, is their blatant and consistent disregard of accurate information. It's enough to be only somewhat knowledgeable in dog nutrition to spot all the spiel that means little in the end. For some that translates into dishonesty (some interpret that as ignorance but I chose dishonesty instead) and for that reason I will not support them. Sure, call it fundamentalism, at least I am not alone in having a fundamentalist side on this forum.



The only time there has been an issue with Champion and animals is when they shipped to New Zealand or Australia (can't remember which) and the country irradiated the food to meet their standards


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## DaViking (Sep 27, 2011)

whiteleo said:


> The only time there has been an issue with Champion and animals is when they shipped to New Zealand or Australia (can't remember which) and the country irradiated the food to meet their standards


Read the chain of events and you'll see that champion made multiple mistakes that in turn lead to the death of these animals. That Australia irradiate imported foods was nothing new.


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## monster'sdad (Jul 29, 2012)

DaViking said:


> Read the chain of events and you'll see that champion made multiple mistakes that in turn lead to the death of these animals. That Australia irradiate imported foods was nothing new.


That is exactly correct. Documents were released as part of Australia's Freedom of Information Act. Interesting read not only for what happened in Australia.

And this never comes either:

http://www.lab-retriever.net/board/...-fda-investigation-orijen-regional-red-2.html


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## dog (Feb 23, 2013)

DaViking said:


> Read the chain of events and you'll see that champion made multiple mistakes that in turn lead to the death of these animals. That Australia irradiate imported foods was nothing new.


Where is this "chain of events". Links please.


monster'sdad said:


> That is exactly correct. Documents were released as part of Australia's Freedom of Information Act. Interesting read not only for what happened in Australia.
> 
> And this never comes either:
> 
> FDA Investigation of Orijen Regional Red - Page 2


Is that what DaViking is talking about? If so, I'm relieved to learn that the dog's "full blood work and kidney and liver function ... came back in normal range. The real damage was to my carpeting." Sounds like an isolated incident from 2.5 years ago. That's not enough to alarm me. What ever happened back then, it must have been rectified. I have read a few threads in other forums about mold problems quite some time ago. I also read from one or two people that had visible tiny bits of bone that could be seen in the kibble. I've never read anything about their food "killing animals".


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## Shamrockmommy (Sep 10, 2009)

Here's another one that won't work for my Bichon and chihuahua. They get terribly constipated on legume based foods. 
I am not a fan of Orijen or acana. My dogs looked just ok on them. There are other foods that give them fuller, gleaming coats.


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## InkedMarie (Sep 9, 2011)

My dogs did fine on the original Orijen but that was back when I paid $75 for the biggest bag. While I wouldn't have any issues trying it, I won't unless it was on sale.


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## DDBsR4Me (Jan 23, 2012)

Is this a new formula completely or have they changed the ingredients for the Orijen 6 Fish?


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## dog (Feb 23, 2013)

It's almost the same as before. The biggest change is they replaced potato with chickpeas and lentils. They did this for all the Orijen formulas, not just 6-fish.


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## DDBsR4Me (Jan 23, 2012)

Oh..like they did with their Acana formulas. 

I knew the changes were coming, but honestly forgot about them. My pet food store hasn't gotten the new formulas in yet, I just bought a bag of dog food but maybe I better go get a couple more before they do so I can transition slowly to the new formula. 

Hope my guy does ok with the changes, he really likes the food....but I've given him samples of the Fromm Surf n Turf and the Salmon Tunalini, so I at least have backups if it doesn't go well.


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## dog (Feb 23, 2013)

DaViking said:


> Read the chain of events and you'll see that champion made multiple mistakes that in turn lead to the death of these animals. That Australia irradiate imported foods was nothing new.





monster'sdad said:


> That is exactly correct. Documents were released as part of Australia's Freedom of Information Act. Interesting read not only for what happened in Australia.
> 
> And this never comes either:
> 
> FDA Investigation of Orijen Regional Red - Page 2





dog said:


> Where is this "chain of events". Links please.
> 
> 
> Is that what DaViking is talking about? If so, I'm relieved to learn that the dog's "full blood work and kidney and liver function ... came back in normal range. The real damage was to my carpeting." Sounds like an isolated incident from 2.5 years ago. That's not enough to alarm me. What ever happened back then, it must have been rectified. I have read a few threads in other forums about mold problems quite some time ago. I also read from one or two people that had visible tiny bits of bone that could be seen in the kibble. I've never read anything about their food "killing animals".


Still no references of Orijen killing animals? I only read about a dog that threw up in that link.


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## DaViking (Sep 27, 2011)

dog said:


> Still no references of Orijen killing animals? I only read about a dog that threw up in that link.


search and you shall find, this have been linked multiple times.
Issues Surrounding Champion Petfoods Orijen recall in Australia


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## dog (Feb 23, 2013)

Does anyone know if Orijen shipped to the USA is irradiated?


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## monster'sdad (Jul 29, 2012)

DaViking said:


> search and you shall find, this have been linked multiple times.
> Issues Surrounding Champion Petfoods Orijen recall in Australia


That covers most of it but the reported FDA Ivestigation into the pork food was on a Labrador forum. The FDA Importation ban of Acana is on the FDA website.


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## monster'sdad (Jul 29, 2012)

dog said:


> Does anyone know if Orijen shipped to the USA is irradiated?


No it is not. The US does not require it.


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## whiteleo (Sep 7, 2008)

DaViking said:


> search and you shall find, this have been linked multiple times.
> Issues Surrounding Champion Petfoods Orijen recall in Australia


It was not Champion who irradiated the food, it was the Australia so stop with the crap about it. Or I'm going to start calling you one of those forum scammers too like Monster's Dad.


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## dog (Feb 23, 2013)

monster'sdad said:


> No it is not. The US does not require it.


I don't like what happened in Australia... at all. It's terribly unfortunate what happened to those cats. I blame both parties. I blame Champion for shipping goods into a country that were going to be irradiated. I also blame them for not responding quicker in the voluntary recall. I blame the Australian government for irradiating this cat food at 6 to 12 times the levels human foods are typically irradiated. 

I think that Champion should have known what damage irradiation could cause to their food. However, the if the Australian government is going to irradiate foods they should definitely know what damage it can cause to the nutritional value of foods AND how that could effect the humans and animals who consume it. The Australian government pulled the trigger. Guilty! Champion knew they were going to pull the trigger. Guilty!

The above link is obviously biased against Champion. So for the other readers here, the other side of the story should also be heard just to be fair: http://www.championpetfoods.com/orijen/Australia_Consumer_Release_Nov28.pdf

Again, very unfortunate what happened in Australia. It's now my understanding that Champion no longer sells to countries that irradiate the food. So for me, I'll continue to feed what seems to be a very high quality kibble so long as it is not irradiated.


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## DaViking (Sep 27, 2011)

whiteleo said:


> It was not Champion who irradiated the food, it was the Australia so stop with the crap about it. Or I'm going to start calling you one of those forum scammers too like Monster's Dad.


Excuse me. What give you the right to threaten people? This isn't communist Russia 1970 so you should cool it with your aggression. I will post any link I see relevant to a discussion so STFU.


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## dog (Feb 23, 2013)

LOL, that wasn't much of a "threat". Awwww, he's gonna call you a scammer  Communist Russia? STFU? LOL


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## Jacksons Mom (Jun 13, 2010)

whiteleo said:


> It was not Champion who irradiated the food, it was the Australia so stop with the crap about it. Or I'm going to start calling you one of those forum scammers too like Monster's Dad.


These kinds of posts are super immature. If you want to be the better person, and make Monsters or DaViking look "bad", your kind of post is not helping. Getting defensive and doing the name calling game does absolutely nothing to assure your credibility. I think anyone who was new coming on this forum looking for detailed information on kibble companies, etc, would listen to posters like Monsters or DaViking way before a poster like you. Not to mention, DaViking, IMO, has always been extremely helpful, non-biased, and a great asset to this forum community. Monsters has often made remarks that can be a bit rude, but I've never seen that from DaViking. To call him a forum scammer? I mean, c'mon.

Forums are for discussing things, and having differing opinions. If every single poster here just kept going on about "How amazing raw is" every day, the forum would sure get boring. It's nice to have some debates, and discussion, and you'd think with most of us being adults, that these kinds of conversations could happen.


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## monster'sdad (Jul 29, 2012)

DaViking said:


> Excuse me. What give you the right to threaten people? This isn't communist Russia 1970 so you should cool it with your aggression. I will post any link I see relevant to a discussion so STFU.



Certain people can post things so long as it is consistent with the "agenda". It is almost laughable how they operate too, all worried and critical about certain things in dry food but see no problem in buying raw meat on Craig's List from people they don't know. In many cases that meat is poached, moreover it is illegal to sell or solicit to buy game meat. The moderators should be aware of that and some other laws concerning the buying and selling of raw meat.


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## DaViking (Sep 27, 2011)

dog said:


> LOL, that wasn't much of a "threat". Awwww, he's gonna call you a scammer  Communist Russia? STFU? LOL


What kind of threats do you want? Are some ok but others not? This is a dog food forum. Not an underground board to discuss porn, illegal firearms, drugs, credit card fraud or how to make a bomb, there you can expect nasty characters out of control. How long do you think this place will be live and active if the kind of behavior whiteleo display is accepted? Do you think anyone is going to participate here anymore if they will be called nasty names, as she threatens, every time they say something said person don't agree with? I can cope with the odd name calling in the heat of the moment but whiteleo is just being pro-actively destructive. If you can't fathom that I really question your motive for coming here.


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## DaViking (Sep 27, 2011)

dog said:


> I don't like what happened in Australia... at all. It's terribly unfortunate what happened to those cats. I blame both parties. I blame Champion for shipping goods into a country that were going to be irradiated. I also blame them for not responding quicker in the voluntary recall. I blame the Australian government for irradiating this cat food at 6 to 12 times the levels human foods are typically irradiated.
> 
> I think that Champion should have known what damage irradiation could cause to their food. However, the if the Australian government is going to irradiate foods they should definitely know what damage it can cause to the nutritional value of foods AND how that could effect the humans and animals who consume it. The Australian government pulled the trigger. Guilty! Champion knew they were going to pull the trigger. Guilty!
> 
> ...


Nice try in spreading the blame but no, not buying it in this case. The ignorance of Orijen / Champion lead to horrible suffering for a number of Australian animals. They as the brand owner, manufacturer and exporter have the ultimate responsibility for how their product works and behaves in any market they are in, irradiated or not. Safety (and quality) inspections by some local authority are in most countries I am aware of done on a secondary and third level and applies to foods meant for human consumption except where they look for certain pathogens in pet food and animal feed. Champion failed to provide safety and the process after the fact was less than satisfactory in the eyes of many. These are (some of) the reasons many do not trust Champion. Others think Orijen is a grossly overpriced product made in the marketing department. I really don't care to participate in that discussion because I don't care that much about how much money people spend on dog food. I care about how an individual is doing on a specific food, their competency, truthfulness, integrity and accuracy. That's all I care about.


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## whiteleo (Sep 7, 2008)

DaViking said:


> Nice try in spreading the blame but no, not buying it in this case. The ignorance of Orijen / Champion lead to horrible suffering for a number of Australian animals. They as the brand owner, manufacturer and exporter have the ultimate responsibility for how their product works and behaves in any market they are in, irradiated or not. Safety (and quality) inspections by some local authority are in most countries I am aware of done on a secondary and third level and applies to foods meant for human consumption except where they look for certain pathogens in pet food and animal feed. Champion failed to provide safety and the process after the fact was less than satisfactory in the eyes of many. These are (some of) the reasons many do not trust Champion. Others think Orijen is a grossly overpriced product made in the marketing department. I really don't care to participate in that discussion because I don't care that much about how much money people spend on dog food. I care about how an individual is doing on a specific food, their competency, truthfulness, integrity and accuracy. That's all I care about.


Oh please.What about ALL the dog food that has killed thousands of dogs? Stop the dribble, I seriously think you and Monster's dad are working together to try and give Champion a bad name when in actuality ALL kibble co. are crap!


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## whiteleo (Sep 7, 2008)

DaViking said:


> Excuse me. What give you the right to threaten people? This isn't communist Russia 1970 so you should cool it with your aggression. I will post any link I see relevant to a discussion so STFU.


And that was not a threat, grow up!


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## meggels (May 30, 2010)

Oh good...now we have raw feeders saying that all kibble is crap in the...kibble section lol. :twitch:


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