# Raw Feeding Noob Mistakes - What can you do wrong?



## Itty bitty Kitty (Dec 26, 2011)

*1.What were the biggest mistakes you made in Raw feeding?
2.What were the things you did wrong ( Preparation and delivery)?
3.What are the things that scared you most?
4.What are the things you wish you didn't do?*


A lot of you know I want do feed raw but it will probably be a while until I am able to. I admit sometimes I am intimidated by it, thinking that somehow I'll mess up or do something wrong. I have no doubt the food is the best I can do for the dog. The only thing I doubt is me! I'm currently reading Raw Meaty Bones and I research frequently on this forum and other raw sites and ask questions with people I meet who do raw. I could use all the information, advise and warnings I could get!


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## Elliehanna (Jan 16, 2012)

1.What were the biggest mistakes you made in Raw feeding? not starting sooner!!! See my boy that I swapped to raw was not gaining weight this past winter, he didn't look bad as far as the vet was concerned, but to me, seeing 4 ribs and some hips when its under freezing for an outside dog is not good at all...anyhow I finally started him on Raw when he got that bad (his coat was shiny as could be and healthy otherwise) well I just wish I would have started about a month or two sooner.

2.What were the things you did wrong ( Preparation and delivery)? I did a lot of research and am still not fully over to raw, one thing I did wrong was freezing a big haul of meat before I sectioned it out and having to deal with it today actually...I have about 40-60 lbs of meat that was in the bottom of the freezer because it wasn't sectioned out (I still have 2 catfish in there that still need cutted and sectioned out and a whole turkey)

3.What are the things that scared you most?
forgetting a bone in the yard when I let my other dog out to play, it has happened one time and it just ended with a growl and a whine but if my pup wouldn't back down I am sure I would be in for a huge fight

4.What are the things you wish you didn't do?
I wish I wouldn't have frozen this liver before I cut it up!! really I have not made huge mistakes yet, I have been feeding raw for close to 5 months so I am sure I will make some major ones sometime


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## creek817 (Feb 18, 2012)

Itty bitty Kitty said:


> *1.What were the biggest mistakes you made in Raw feeding? I didn't find this forum before I started!! Dobby definitely had way too much bone for the first 6 weeks or so (he was only getting chicken necks and turkey necks), and I started organs pretty much at the very beginnings. I was lucky and Dobby handles all of it just fine.
> 2.What were the things you did wrong ( Preparation and delivery)?Just the above I think.
> 3.What are the things that scared you most? I think the normal one, listening to my dog crunch through bones, after a lifetime of being told dogs can't eat bones! Now, I love that sound.
> 4.What are the things you wish you didn't do?I wish I didn't try to feed him kibble, ever! I only had him about 3 weeks before I started raw, and he hated kibble, but I didn't know anything about raw. I wish I had! I also wish I hadn't gone out and bought like 15 packages of chicken necks when I first started. I still have about 5 packages in the freezer, but we're slowly using them up!*


Switching Dobby to raw has been fantastic! The past couple of days I've been to three different friends' houses who feed kibble, and I am amazed by how much their dogs shed, and how dry and brittle their coats look. Not to mention their teeth! Dobby barely sheds at all, even though he's got the sort of double corgi coat, and he is SO soft and shiny, and his teeth are bright and sparkly white. AND I have SO much fun meat shopping for him =D It's very addictive!

Jump in, get started!!! It is scary at first, but as soon as you see how much your dog enjoys it, you'll wish you started sooner!


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## creek817 (Feb 18, 2012)

Elliehanna said:


> 1.What were the biggest mistakes you made in Raw feeding? not starting sooner!!! See my boy that I swapped to raw was not gaining weight this past winter, he didn't look bad as far as the vet was concerned, but to me, seeing 4 ribs and some hips when its under freezing for an outside dog is not good at all...anyhow I finally started him on Raw when he got that bad (his coat was shiny as could be and healthy otherwise) well I just wish I would have started about a month or two sooner.
> 
> 2.What were the things you did wrong ( Preparation and delivery)? I did a lot of research and am still not fully over to raw, one thing I did wrong was freezing a big haul of meat before I sectioned it out and having to deal with it today actually...I have about 40-60 lbs of meat that was in the bottom of the freezer because it wasn't sectioned out (I still have 2 catfish in there that still need cutted and sectioned out and a whole turkey)
> 
> ...


Oh yeah, that one too - Definitely portion your meat before you freeze it - MUCH easier than trying to defrost large amounts, portion out, and then freeze again! What I try to do is put 3-4 days worth in a container, or if I'm feeling really organized, I portion out daily meals. Then, even if I forget to defrost ahead of time, I just feed it to him frozen. My dog actually tends to prefer his meals frozen for some odd reason!


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## Itty bitty Kitty (Dec 26, 2011)

creek817 said:


> Switching Dobby to raw has been fantastic! The past couple of days I've been to three different friends' houses who feed kibble, and I am amazed by how much their dogs shed, and how dry and brittle their coats look. Not to mention their teeth! Dobby barely sheds at all, even though he's got the sort of double corgi coat, and he is SO soft and shiny, and his teeth are bright and sparkly white. AND I have SO much fun meat shopping for him =D It's very addictive!
> 
> Jump in, get started!!! It is scary at first, but as soon as you see how much your dog enjoys it, you'll wish you started sooner!


*Momentarily stunned with Dobby's cuteness.*

Huh wha? Oh! Thank you for the reassurance! A part of me is still a tad nervous about it but I'm glad to see many success stories  Let's hope I will be ready when it's my turn to start lol 

and 15 packages, wow! At least you started well stocked! and I admit, even now, looking at meat whenever I pass by a meat store of grocery sore, I get excited. I think meat is my new candy store XD


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## Itty bitty Kitty (Dec 26, 2011)

Elliehanna said:


> 1.What were the biggest mistakes you made in Raw feeding? not starting sooner!!! See my boy that I swapped to raw was not gaining weight this past winter, he didn't look bad as far as the vet was concerned, but to me, seeing 4 ribs and some hips when its under freezing for an outside dog is not good at all...anyhow I finally started him on Raw when he got that bad (his coat was shiny as could be and healthy otherwise) well I just wish I would have started about a month or two sooner.
> 
> 2.What were the things you did wrong ( Preparation and delivery)? I did a lot of research and am still not fully over to raw, one thing I did wrong was freezing a big haul of meat before I sectioned it out and having to deal with it today actually...I have about 40-60 lbs of meat that was in the bottom of the freezer because it wasn't sectioned out (I still have 2 catfish in there that still need cutted and sectioned out and a whole turkey)
> 
> ...


Thank you for sharing! I admit storage and preparation is where I feel lost the most. But oh man, that's a lot of solid frozen meat! I can only imagine the pain and challenge it must be!


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## Neeko (Aug 11, 2010)

I was most fearful of diarrhea, mostly because my girl **would** experience some sort of stomach upset every couple weeks. It was and has been a non issue. I have learned so much from the members of this forum!

My two took to it like they had been waiting their whole lives for it. I have had no issues, except my boy has pooped dust a couple of times. Both of my dogs flew right in, and took to each new protein and organ with no problems whatsoever. In a little over 2 months time they have had 8 proteins, tripe, 4 organs from different sources, and easily go 3 days without bone. I was very cautious at first.

It is almost as fun for me as it is for my dogs to feed them raw!!


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## Kat (Jul 12, 2011)

*1.What were the biggest mistakes you made in Raw feeding?*
Thinking I could intro beef as easily as chicken, turkey, fish, and pork. 

*2.What were the things you did wrong ( Preparation and delivery)?*
Giving Rubys bone-out meals as just one chunk of meat. She is a gulper so she would try and swallow the 4 oz piece whole and would pretty much always throw it back up. Now I cut bone-out meals into bitesized chunks.

*3.What are the things that scared you most?*
Raw bones and salmonella. Those are the things anti-raw people always start with first and it would scare the crap out of me. When I first told one of my friends who is REALLY anti-raw that I switched Ruby to raw she told me "I cant stand by and watch you kill your dog" So that really scared me, until I made a thread about it on DFC and calmed down again lol.

*4.What are the things you wish you didn't do?*
Iv only been feeding raw for a little over 10 months, I havent made any huge mistakes yet. *knock on wood*


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

1. i did everything wrong. 

my biggest mistake was in not doing it sooner as was stated above and thought by many of us.
then i listened to what i thought was great advice....but in hindsight...

the instructions, whilst beautifully written, lacked specifity and i didn't catch that.

there were no guidelines for weighing the food, serving bony chicken.....etc.

consequently, my dogs threw up, had the hershey squirts and within a week, i had to stop. 

i think, two years later, i am still cleaning chicken hork off my ceiling from bubba doing his stevie wonder routine.

watching bubba swallow a drumstick whole scared my heart into my soul. i actually went out and bought vodka and drank.

and shook and cried.

i had no back up and no support.

i would post on that board that got me started and the girl there would tell me she'd never heard of a dog doing what my dogs did.

to that i can now say bullhockey...any dog that is overfed can do this, unless they iron guts. 

then i went back to home cooked to get their stools back to normal and stop the vomiting....and waited a month because it took that long.

after, i contacted rawfeddogs who was on here and that other board...told him what had happened, could hear him laughing all the way from where he lived.

he gave me step by step instructions and tho it still took longer, mostly because of me and my fears.....we did get there.

had i come here first..and i say that with all sincerity and had i LISTENED to what people told me and what rawfeddogs told me, my dogs would have transitioned sooner and more easily.

i think going to fast with proteins is another potential pitfall...

even with all of the research i did, i was not prepared for the uniqueness of my dogs....each dog is different and what we say can only be used as guidelines...

i was more fascinated than scared....but to this day, i am ever vigilant about being there when they eat....i've read too many times when that one in a million thing can go sideways.....so i'm there with my little set of tongs just in case....

i don't worry about it...i never want my dogs to be tense....but i'm prepared for anything....

i've also learned all dogs are different.

feed big is not a concept that works with my pug. actually, the smaller the cut, the more he rolls it around from side to side...even bony.....

malia is lazy. she will refuse to eat if something is too big for her. beef ribs for example make her whine and sigh. 

so, know thy dog has meaning to me now.

i think taking that leap of faith that hundreds of thousands of people know something you don't know....and we all have our hands out waiting to catch you....is a brave act that you should take.


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## Kat (Jul 12, 2011)

Lol Re, I cant imagine you feeling helpless and lost with raw feeding. You're the one who talked me step by step with switching Ruby to raw


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

Kat said:


> Lol Re, I cant imagine you feeling helpless and lost with raw feeding. You're the one who talked me step by step with switching Ruby to raw


i can only say that, from the ashes, rose the phoenix.....
believe it...

i was such a mess....

i got so much help from these good people....who walked me through this thing called raw.....

and thank you for saying that.....i know what i went through....i hope i can give something back....


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## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

Kat said:


> Lol Re, I cant imagine you feeling helpless and lost with raw feeding. You're the one who talked me step by step with switching Ruby to raw


Haha - Even Re was a newbie at one time!

I did pretty much everything wrong. Luckily, my dogs' guts are tough and I got away with most of it.

I think one of the biggest mistakes people make is to overthink and make it way too complicated.

The same fellow who saved Re saved me by saying this during one of my freakouts:

Buy a chicken
Feed a chicken.

It's that simple. Kind of put it in perspective for me.

Raw feeding is supposed to be fun (probably mixed in with a few moments of total horror and panic). If it's not fun, it's not being done right.


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## whiteleo (Sep 7, 2008)

I won't say I made the mistakes because I followed RFD's plan a tee, but most everyone on here has MOVED too fast from protein to protein and wonder why their dogs still can't digest that bone very well. That's all I'll say!


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## Makovach (Jan 24, 2012)

1.What were the biggest mistakes you made in Raw feeding?
Too much too soon. I was trying to give Tucker about 2lbs at the start and he is only going to be about 65lbs. He kept getting sick and it was a battle. 

2.What were the things you did wrong ( Preparation and delivery)?
Not weighing, adding in new sources too quickly, adding in sups (Fish oil, coconut oil, garlic ect.) too soon. Being overly excited and thinking they could just have anything. I started out packing in 6 quart containers for the dogs;s food. It was great when they were only eating chicken backs or chicken quarters. I don't like mixing my meats because my bf doesn't give them the right things. So Now, we started ziploc baggies for the meats. Then we can pull a bag from every source and be set to go! It also takes up less space and we can fit more in the freezer.

3.What are the things that scared you most?
Tucker going through another protein he is allergic to. He got very sick when he had turkey. 

4.What are the things you wish you didn't do?[/B]


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## bridget246 (Oct 26, 2011)

Itty bitty Kitty said:


> *1.What were the biggest mistakes you made in Raw feeding?
> 2.What were the things you did wrong ( Preparation and delivery)?
> 3.What are the things that scared you most?
> 4.What are the things you wish you didn't do?*
> ...


1) My biggest mistake in raw feeding is not knowing the importance of fasting. It has to be the best tools in fixing problems. Too often would I try to fed a sick dog. 

2) Um... I read post about feeding green meat or meat that have been left out and the dogs being fine. Sometimes making my own thread about it gets me questioned because I supposedly didn't search even though every day and situation is different. So I fed it and Bridget had all kinds of nasty smells and stuff coming out of her. Now all my meat stay frozen. If I can't prep it right then I will still freeze it and leave it out when I have my time just long enough to defrost it, prep it, and refreeze it.

3) Holding raw meat. I don't eat meat. I avoided going around any and all raw meat because it made my screen crawl. 

4) Felt like I was being gained up on at the start. Was very resistant to help at first. I didn't know you guys back then so it was kind of hard to trust. 

This morning I wish I didn't feed Carlos. His stool was great during our walk. Went to the bathroom and Carlos peed and potty a nice little pile of diarrhea in front of the bathroom door. Some dogs have an easier translation than others.


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## bridget246 (Oct 26, 2011)

whiteleo said:


> I won't say I made the mistakes because I followed RFD's plan a tee, but most everyone on here has MOVED too fast from protein to protein and wonder why their dogs still can't digest that bone very well. That's all I'll say!


I want to read his plan. I keep hearing about it.


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

whiteleo said:


> I won't say I made the mistakes because I followed RFD's plan a tee, but most everyone on here has MOVED too fast from protein to protein and wonder why their dogs still can't digest that bone very well. That's all I'll say!


i so agree with this. the one thing i didn't do was move from protein to protein quickly.....i think my kids were on chicken for a month before we ever ventured on to turkey...

my big problem was overfeeding LOL


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## DaneMama (Jun 27, 2008)

As far as those questions you asked us...honestly making mistakes is how you learn. Without trial and error you don't gain that vital experience. I'm not saying its good to just jump in and wing it...not one bit. But a HUGE part of how I learned everything I know about raw is through the mistakes I've made over the years. You can read and read and read...and read some more, but honestly that wont prepare you 100% for raw feeding. Most of the people here have read, researched until their blue in the face and they STILL made mistakes. Luckily dogs are very forgiving, hardy, resilient (for the most part) and willing to put up with our shenanigans. And what helped someone else with their troubles with raw may not be helpful at all to your situation because dogs are all a little different. 



Kat said:


> Lol Re, I cant imagine you feeling helpless and lost with raw feeding. You're the one who talked me step by step with switching Ruby to raw


We are all newbs at one point or another....even me!


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## NewYorkDogue (Sep 27, 2011)

Itty bitty Kitty said:


> *1.What were the biggest mistakes you made in Raw feeding?
> 2.What were the things you did wrong ( Preparation and delivery)?
> 3.What are the things that scared you most?
> 4.What are the things you wish you didn't do?*
> ...


No real major mistakes, just bumps in the road, really... 

I picked up my pup at 8.5 weeks, knowing I would feed him raw (his parents were fed 1/2 raw, 1/2 kibble.) I didn't find this site until 3 months in, so I kind of winged it as far as raw goes. I fed him some pre-made raw, as well as some chicken wings/thighs, and ground lamb. That got expensive, real quick! Also, I was adding in some pureed veggies, after reading in a book that it would benefit dogs. Ummm... not so much. My pup didn't do too well with the "veggie-slop."

Anyway, I was jumping around to different types of proteins, organs, bones... and surprisingly, he did fine. Probably because he was a puppy, and was practically weaned right onto raw; I am sure that makes a big difference. 

Okay, there was a scary moment, to be honest. When he was about 4 months old, I picked up some rabbit from a local market. One piece I gave him was just too big, or he didn't quite know whether to chew or swallow. I saw him drooling; he stood up, leaned against the wall.... and then slumped down. I tried to pick him up; he wasn't breathing. I freaked-- opened the door and started banging on my neighbor's door; he wasn't home (I live in an apt; he's only 3 feet away.). So I went back to Mateo and just instinctively started pressing hard right under his ribcage a few times (I was straddling him.) Then- voila! He sort of gasped, his eyes opened, and he "came back!" The rabbit must have just gotten lodged in his throat, and finally got down. Okay-- lesson learned: know what sizes of meat your pup can or might not be able to handle... and stick around when they eat. That was my only scare, really-- and to be sure, dogs can choke on ANYTHING... so raw was not the issue.

I agree with Re: know your dog. And I know Mateo now, who he is , what his tendencies are... and how he eats. Knowledge is power, as they say...


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## xchairity_casex (Oct 8, 2011)

Raw Feeding Noob Mistakes - What can you do wrong? 
1.What were the biggest mistakes you made in Raw feeding?

so far i havent made any real big ones i think the biggest i made was feeding heart and liver together while Cesar has a bit of a sensitive tummy and caused him lots of butt misery. now though after eating both liver and heart he can have them together ok.

2.What were the things you did wrong ( Preparation and delivery)?
i agree about the makeing sure you cut up the meat BEFORE freezing!!! i did this the first time and was like "oh crap..." another thing i think is important is make sure you splurge on the good thick freezer bags i was always buying the cheapo thin baggies only to have them leak all over the fridge.

3.What are the things that scared you most?
parasites i was a lil weird most people worry about the bones i never worried much about bones i just worried about parasites mostly

4.What are the things you wish you didn't do?
thinking it was OK to feed Cesar exclusivly beef for like 3 weeks straight didnt turn out well again he had the butt misery.

raw really IS easy i was worried too in the begining of messing up but since feeding raw you really do get ALOT more wiggle room then youd expect its OK if you feed a little too much or a little too less its OK if you accedentally left the meat out for a day, its OK if your dog goes a month without a beef heart,its OK if all you can afford is grocery store meats, its OK if you cant find the "Weird" stuff like heads,feet or llhama meat and its OK if your dog only gets a meal of ground turkey once in a while!


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## creek817 (Feb 18, 2012)

Itty bitty Kitty said:


> *Momentarily stunned with Dobby's cuteness.*
> 
> Huh wha? Oh! Thank you for the reassurance! A part of me is still a tad nervous about it but I'm glad to see many success stories  Let's hope I will be ready when it's my turn to start lol
> 
> and 15 packages, wow! At least you started well stocked! and I admit, even now, looking at meat whenever I pass by a meat store of grocery sore, I get excited. I think meat is my new candy store XD



Awwww thank you! I am stunned by his cuteness all the time =) I can't help but smie when I look at him, no matter what. At obedience class last week, we were doing down-stays, and they had to stay for one minute, and i just kept giggling watching him cuz he was being so freaking cute =D I'm a dork. But thank you!

And yeah, I got a bit over-excited. Liz (EchoEcho) was here visiting me, and we basically bought all the chicken necks we could find at two different grocery stores haha. Oops! It is tons of fun though!


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## KittyKat (Feb 11, 2011)

Itty bitty Kitty said:


> *1.What were the biggest mistakes you made in Raw feeding?
> 2.What were the things you did wrong ( Preparation and delivery)?
> 3.What are the things that scared you most?
> 4.What are the things you wish you didn't do?*


1. Not starting when I first got Piper!
2. Raw is pretty easy, but I did freeze all my chicken backs together. Whoops! Easy fix though, you make mistakes and learn.
3. Not finding enough sources of meat.
4. Wish I didn't spend more time fussing with kibble.


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## Neeko (Aug 11, 2010)

xchairity_casex said:


> raw really IS easy i was worried too in the begining of messing up but since feeding raw you really do get ALOT more wiggle room then youd expect its OK if you feed a little too much or a little too less its OK if you accedentally left the meat out for a day, its OK if your dog goes a month without a beef heart,its OK if all you can afford is grocery store meats, its OK if you cant find the "Weird" stuff like heads,feet or llhama meat and its OK if your dog only gets a meal of ground turkey once in a while!


Amen to that!


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## whiteleo (Sep 7, 2008)

bridget246 said:


> I want to read his plan. I keep hearing about it.


Here you go!Skylar, Zack, and Abby on the WEB


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## Itty bitty Kitty (Dec 26, 2011)

> Okay, there was a scary moment, to be honest. When he was about 4 months old, I picked up some rabbit from a local market. One piece I gave him was just too big, or he didn't quite know whether to chew or swallow. I saw him drooling; he stood up, leaned against the wall.... and then slumped down. I tried to pick him up; he wasn't breathing. I freaked-- opened the door and started banging on my neighbor's door; he wasn't home (I live in an apt; he's only 3 feet away.). So I went back to Mateo and just instinctively started pressing hard right under his ribcage a few times (I was straddling him.) Then- voila! He sort of gasped, his eyes opened, and he "came back!" The rabbit must have just gotten lodged in his throat, and finally got down. Okay-- lesson learned: know what sizes of meat your pup can or might not be able to handle... and stick around when they eat. That was my only scare, really-- and to be sure, dogs can choke on ANYTHING... so raw was not the issue.


I admit that's my biggest fear. Choking/having having my dog swallow something that gets lodged. As Danemama pointed out, we learn through mistakes. I generally have no problem with that but I admit I'm still nervous about the idea of my mistakes potentially costing my dog's life. I'm guessing, ever since then and with moderation you have not encountered that problem again?


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## creek817 (Feb 18, 2012)

Itty bitty Kitty said:


> I admit that's my biggest fear. Choking/having having my dog swallow something that gets lodged. As Danemama pointed out, we learn through mistakes. I generally have no problem with that but I admit I'm still nervous about the idea of my mistakes potentially costing my dog's life. I'm guessing, ever since then and with moderation you have not encountered that problem again?


Here's a link on how to do Doggy CPR: Choking Dog First Aid. Learn How to Save Your Canine Companion from Choking.

Something you might want to learn anyway =)


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## NewYorkDogue (Sep 27, 2011)

Itty bitty Kitty said:


> I admit that's my biggest fear. Choking/having having my dog swallow something that gets lodged. As Danemama pointed out, we learn through mistakes. I generally have no problem with that but I admit I'm still nervous about the idea of my mistakes potentially costing my dog's life. I'm guessing, ever since then and with moderation you have not encountered that problem again?


Yes-- we learn through mistakes, that's life! And no, he has never even come close to choking since then. The piece of rabbit I gave him was kind of shaped like a fist (a perfect shape to get lodged in a throat)--and he was still a pup, with some new teeth coming in, some dropping out... I just believe that it was the wrong size to give him at that time. My bad!

But, again, it could have been a stick, a balled-up sock, half a shoe... you know, dogs will be dogs. They chew, they swallow things, and don't think too much about it, lol.

Unless you keep your pup in a bubble, you just have to know that stuff is going to happen. All you can do is try to be smart about things, be prepared, and be brave!


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## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

Itty bitty Kitty said:


> I admit that's my biggest fear. Choking/having having my dog swallow something that gets lodged. As Danemama pointed out, we learn through mistakes. I generally have no problem with that but I admit I'm still nervous about the idea of my mistakes potentially costing my dog's life. I'm guessing, ever since then and with moderation you have not encountered that problem again?


Life is a risk. EVery time a human eats, there is danger of food lodging. And dogs eating kibble also get choked. 

There is much more danger in eating socks or other non-food items. 

Snorkels got choked on a piece of kidney. It was a small piece. I have no idea how it happened. It was smaller than a million things she has eaten. She swallows whole chicken heads and has never had an issue.

I won't stop feeding her kidney, though - it's good for her. 

I actually have more fear of Rebel choking because I can't pick him up and flip him upside down. But so far, so good. He has choked and just puked it all back up to try again.


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

my husband calls me a collecter of proteins. he is right.

but one thing i did wrong was collect proteins indiscriminately, so i ended up with too much of one thing, not enough of another.

i think, were i to do it all over again, i would have bought the protein i was feeding that not bought anything else, other than the next protein i was introducing...and even then, in small amounts, in case that protein did not agree with the dogs.

i see it as much with what i did as new people do now....they start and it's just so cool....that they start to buy sale items for 'later'...but when later comes around..maybe it wasn't the best cut of meat...or you learned that buying machine cut chops or necks wasn't a good idea for the dog...so now you're stuck with stuff the dog shouldn't have.

i wasted a lot of money doing that....

i'm still a collecter....and an addict, but a little more discerning. 'course, it's also a time thing. we live. we learn.


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