# Upon Further Review



## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

Well, it's been 3 months since i started the Great Experiment with Bubba the Bald.

He had been eating the seed mixture (pumpkin, sesame, sunflower, and flax) for all this time five days a week.

He was eating raw, not cooked veggies, specifically chosen for their whole nutrients, not the sums of their parts.

he released his anal glands, which is a nervous thing with him, as he is a poor abused rescue.....more often.

he did grow fur.

the reason he grew fur was because i increased his dietary fat. 

he is now off the veggies, except what falls on the floor, because i am a sloppy cook.

he no longer gets olive oil or any other vegetable oil, other than occasionally he gets coconut oil, because i think it has properties that are good for them, even though it is not species appropriate.

we also started feeding them fish more often...and now that we found eggs that actually taste like eggs, both dogs are getting eggs again.

their coats are lustrous, even the old lady, malia.

their breath is wonderful and their teeth are awesome.

other than a little arthritis or just creaky old age setting in for malia, both dogs are great.


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## DaneMama (Jun 27, 2008)

Fantastic news Re! Are they still on the seed mixture as well?


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## Scarlett_O' (May 19, 2011)

Oh...they both look AMAZING!!!

Bubba looks SOOO much like a black version of Brody's Momma!!!LOL
(Who BTW Re IS looking for the perfect raw feeding, Pug home!!:wink::tongue


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## luvMyBRT (Mar 8, 2010)

They both look so good! What an accomplishment to have found out what works perfectly for your two. :cheer2:

So are they eating a mostly PMR diet with the added seed mixture?


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## Amy18 (May 17, 2011)

Ohh thanks for the update Re what lovely shiny black coats and Bubba's facial expression is priceless. As you know i've been experimenting with that diet myself but have really been slacking on all the components so i might have to start over. It's just SO much easier to take out the meat ,defrost , feed, the end. 

How did you go about increasing their dietary fat? from which type of protein? I usually trim fat off all red meats. Lex is a little on the thin side and i'm not sure how to go about putting some weight on her. When i upped her intake from 3.2 to 3.5 she gets upset tummy.


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## brandypup (Jan 23, 2012)

Those faces!


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

nope. no more seed mixture. that's for me. it's good stuff.

i had noticed that i was cleaning his ears out more often....those floppy ears...and he gets gunk in his ears but no more yeast, not even with the veggies and the little bit of fruit they were getting.

i had stopped the fruit in december, i think, toward the end.

i was also keeping a journal....

the upshot of all this is dietary fat and, as humans, we have a tendency to shy away from it, except for those who follow an atkins or paleolithic type food program...

most of us try to eat low fat...but when i see my duck necks and they are almost entirely fat, my first intent is to cut some off. 

even though the veggies did work along with the seed mix....i believe they were getting too much sugar...even veggies have sugar and consider their size.

when i stopped the veggies and the seed mix slowly went down to zero and the olive oil was put away....bubba started to lose fur again around his eyes...

and that's when it hit me...throughout the two years that i've been feeding raw, they have gotten a lot of lean meat, such as llama and goat and other cuts that were grass fed/grass finished...they rarely get chicken....and they only got fish once a week...either sardine, herring, or mackerel....

now they get fish twice a week....and eggs a few times a week.

and the fat gets left on the duck neck. if i cut some lamb fat off, it goes into the freezer for when i feed lean, like goat.

plus they weren't getting eggs because we weren't eating eggs because they didn't taste like eggs anymore i was tired of frankenchickens and frankenstein eggs...

but now, we found a brand of egg where the chickens see sunlight and we found chickens who are outdoors also...whilst they are still fed that stupid corn/soy diet.....at least they can eat a bug or two.

so there ya have it.

the experiment is over. 

their coats, whilst beautiful before, are exquisite now.

bubba gets eye goobers but they are clear and easily wiped away.

inbetween his eyes, there is fur and it's all coming back in all of his glorious thickness....when it's sunny, he is blindingly black...as is malia.

i clean his ears once every two to three weeks, not days. 

he is not itchy.

this experiment is over.

i'm back.


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

Amy18 said:


> Ohh thanks for the update Re what lovely shiny black coats and Bubba's facial expression is priceless. As you know i've been experimenting with that diet myself but have really been slacking on all the components so i might have to start over. It's just SO much easier to take out the meat ,defrost , feed, the end.
> 
> How did you go about increasing their dietary fat? from which type of protein? I usually trim fat off all red meats. Lex is a little on the thin side and i'm not sure how to go about putting some weight on her. When i upped her intake from 3.2 to 3.5 she gets upset tummy.


keep in mind my dogs have been raw fed for almost two years....how long has lex been raw fed?

i didn't up my dogs' intake. if anything i cut back a little because both were getting a little heavier than i would like.

what i didn't do was trim the fat off.

they also treadmill almost every day, except for weekends...so they do get exercise. considering her age and his size, a mile is enough at a nice clip.

but that's how i did it. i upped the fat, decreased the amount, since fat has 9 kcal and protein has 4.


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## DaneMama (Jun 27, 2008)

I was closely following your little experiment. I think this whole journey is a true testament to raw feeding and WHAT is really needed. And the more I think about it, the more I think the 80:10:10 ratio is NOT accurate. I think FAT is as important as meat, bone and organ. So it should be more like 70:10:10:10 ratio of meat:bonergan:fat or something like that. 

I truly applaud your efforts and diligence through this whole endeavor! I can't thank you enough for doing it :thumb: 

What are all of your thoughts on this?


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

brandypup said:


> Those faces!


it IS what keeps them alive. thank you.


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

DaneMama said:


> I was closely following your little experiment. I think this whole journey is a true testament to raw feeding and WHAT is really needed. And the more I think about it, the more I think the 80:10:10 ratio is NOT accurate. I think FAT is as important as meat, bone and organ. So it should be more like 70:10:10:10 ratio of meat:bonergan:fat or something like that.
> 
> I truly applaud your efforts and diligence through this whole endeavor! I can't thank you enough for doing it :thumb:
> 
> What are all of your thoughts on this?


that's a lot of why i posted this, nat...i knew you were following and others were too....i felt an update is in order.

it also gave me a lot of time to study that which i knew and was wrong, that which was mentored to me and i knew it wasn't the way i wanted to go...advice given and i just didn't have the arsenal of knowledge to know which way to go.

the only thing i knew was i had a bald dog...with no hair on his penis. very embarrassing for a guy, ya know?

i absolutely agree with your ratios.....and not because i'm sucking up......i've already sucked up enough and have plenty of brownie points...LOL

because perfectly formed chalky stools are not the goal....

at least, not in my world...and organs contain fat soluble vitamins...best to err on the side of too little than too much than to screw up a perfectly good liver....

if the proof is in the pudding, i can see that barf works, because i experimented with it.

i can also see pancreatitis in their futures had i kept going...because you and i both know that sugar is death to a dog. or, at the very least, taxing.....and so many dogs who eat kibble and fruit and veggies and grains are getting sugars.....and it taxes the pancreas.....and that is just pandora's box.

my feeling is we feed our dogs raw, if they have been converted from kibble and it is going to take a few years for the dog's system to get back to what it should have been all along.

i was thinking about this....using myself as an example..and, whilst i am human and they are dogs, some things do cross over...and that's recovery.

i had six surgeries in five years and i am still recovering, if ever i do...

when a woman becomes pregnant and carries to term, it takes two to four years for her body to get all of its stuff back...and be healthy. 

it takes four months for anaesthesia to get out of a body's tissues....

these are known numbers....

i am thinking this is why we keep telling people to go agonisingly slowly

what are your thoughts on that?


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

Scarlett_O' said:


> Oh...they both look AMAZING!!!
> 
> Bubba looks SOOO much like a black version of Brody's Momma!!!LOL
> (Who BTW Re IS looking for the perfect raw feeding, Pug home!!:wink::tongue


note you did NOT get thanked for posting that a pug needs a home.....that is just naughty of you.

really? though? 

why?


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## NewYorkDogue (Sep 27, 2011)

brandypup said:


> Those faces!


Exactly what my reaction was. I don't know how you can stand it, having those uber-sweet faces staring up at you like that...

Anyway, thank you for the update. Indeed, it's a positive development, and I think we've all learned something from following your journey.


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## Scarlett_O' (May 19, 2011)

DaneMama said:


> I was closely following your little experiment. I think this whole journey is a true testament to raw feeding and WHAT is really needed. And the more I think about it, the more I think the 80:10:10 ratio is NOT accurate. *I think FAT is as important as meat, bone and organ. So it should be more like 70:10:10:10 ratio of meat:bonergan:fat or something like that. *
> 
> I truly applaud your efforts and diligence through this whole endeavor! I can't thank you enough for doing it :thumb:
> 
> What are all of your thoughts on this?


This is VERY true, IMO!!

I feed to keep around 10-15% fat on my guy's food....no one has had loss of hair at all, if anything my too with "normal" short hair(well Dixi is a mix of "normal" and wire)have thickened and are of course, just the everyone else, soft, shiny and supple!:biggrin:

Also the 2 kitties...I keep their around 10% as well. Both are long haired, and had chronic hairball issues.....I havent seen a single hair ball from either of them after they had been on raw for a week each!!:thumb: They are also just as soft, healthy and full haired as I would expect!!:biggrin:


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## DaneMama (Jun 27, 2008)

magicre said:


> that's a lot of why i posted this, nat...i knew you were following and others were too....i felt an update is in order.
> 
> it also gave me a lot of time to study that which i knew and was wrong, that which was mentored to me and i knew it wasn't the way i wanted to go...advice given and i just didn't have the arsenal of knowledge to know which way to go.
> 
> ...


We are 100% on the same page. Years of inappropriate nutrition does lots of damage, just like the effects of smoking cigarettes takes 10 WHOLE years to really start to go away. People are inherently impatient and want instant gratification. But good things come to those who wait, have patience, a strong back bone, a will to change for the better, even if it takes a few painstaking years to complete. 

The way I feed my dogs has changed 100% since when I first fed raw to now. We got 100% factory farmed meats the first year or so, feeding primarily poultry. Ever since we've been trying harder and harder to get naturally raised meats, more red meats and I'm still seeing an improvement. I'm still learning!


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## Amy18 (May 17, 2011)

magicre said:


> keep in mind my dogs have been raw fed for almost two years....how long has lex been raw fed?
> 
> i didn't up my dogs' intake. if anything i cut back a little because both were getting a little heavier than i would like.
> 
> ...


Uh oh i'm starting to think i've been going about this wrong. I've been feeding her raw for about 8 months now. I have always trimmed ALL fat off of the red meats including heart, i think maybe that thick dense fat worries me because i've heard yorkies are prone to pancreatitis. The only fat she gets is through poultry skin and oils i've been giving her. There are some days she gets no fat at all. It's funny you mention the paleo diet because that's pretty much how i eat. Thanks so much for this, i really didn't consider how important fat is in a PMR diet.


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

i noticed that, nat....but that was after you moved and you were more in a position to do so....

i also try to stay within the species appropriate now, although we will never see an elk or deer carcass in our backyard...

even still, now that you've got the land and the ability to butcher and the means to feed differently, i'll bet you've noticed a difference in the danes..

it's as if we never thought they could look better....but they do.

chicken backs and beef hearts, indeed. snort.


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## DaneMama (Jun 27, 2008)

Absolutely....I know that having the space and means to do a lot of self meat processing has a LOT to do with it. Its opened a lot of doors for us. 

That isn't to say that I think the "kibbles n' bits" of raw feeding (IE factory farmed meats) isn't still a HUGE improvement to feeding kibble. It is BY FAR. People shouldn't give up on raw because they can't afford the more expensive meats, butcher themselves, etc. They're just going to be more thoughtful about what they feed in regards to fats. But...I'd not personally go back to feeding factory farmed meats as a majority by choice...if there was no other way we could afford raw...hell yes I would go back to ordering in bulk, etc. I'd do everything in my power to keep the dogs off of doomnuggets.


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## Sprocket (Oct 4, 2011)

OH be still my heart. Those faces...


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## BoxerParty (Nov 9, 2011)

DaneMama said:


> We are 100% on the same page. Years of inappropriate nutrition does lots of damage, just like the effects of smoking cigarettes takes 10 WHOLE years to really start to go away. People are inherently impatient and want instant gratification. But good things come to those who wait, have patience, a strong back bone, a will to change for the better, even if it takes a few painstaking years to complete.
> 
> The way I feed my dogs has changed 100% since when I first fed raw to now. We got 100% factory farmed meats the first year or so, feeding primarily poultry. Ever since we've been trying harder and harder to get naturally raised meats, more red meats and I'm still seeing an improvement. I'm still learning!


I LOVE your response, Natalie. I think it's essential for everyone to remember that feeding raw - and life in general - is a process of lifelong learning, and it's very easy to lose track of that. So many people decide that they know "enough" and become complacent.

I am still at the very beginning of the raw journey. Thanks to Re and Natalie and everyone else for remembering and reminding us that it IS a journey and that no one has all the answers, but offer guidance based on their own experience!


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## BoxerParty (Nov 9, 2011)

magicre said:


> Well, it's been 3 months since i started the Great Experiment with Bubba the Bald.
> 
> He had been eating the seed mixture (pumpkin, sesame, sunflower, and flax) for all this time five days a week.
> 
> ...


Um, you may want to reconsider your request for me to teach Bubba the sit for greeting, 'cause I will DEFINITELY steal him and take him home with me. :biggrin:


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## Sprocket (Oct 4, 2011)

BoxerParty said:


> I LOVE your response, Natalie. I think it's essential for everyone to remember that feeding raw - and life in general - is a process of lifelong learning, and it's very easy to lose track of that. So many people decide that they know "enough" and become complacent.
> 
> I am still at the very beginning of the raw journey. Thanks to Re and Natalie and everyone else for remembering and reminding us that it IS a journey and that no one has all the answers, but offer guidance based on their own experience!



I love refering to it as a journey. That is truly what it has become for me. My friends may think I'm wacko but I care, and I actually enjoy it. I have loved learning what my dogs needs are. I finally feel more at peace with their health.

FWIW - I vaguely remember reading on here that they NEED fat in their diet due to how lean most meats are. My dogs get a good amount but it varies because I am still trying to figure out what is a good ratio for them on any given day. Mikey gets less because he seems to put it on too much.


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## DeekenDog (Aug 29, 2011)

This is all so interesting to me. To be honest, I have never paid a huge amount of attention to the amount of fat on Deeken's meat. I just tend to feed it as it is. It seems to be working for us but I find this to be incredibly interesting. Your dogs look great.

As to the factory farming, well I wish I could afford all grass-fed. I do my best and I pay a bit more to order my lamb heart and beef heart through my local raw food pet store because it is grass-fed. I also get wild venison and moose during hunting season which makes a huge difference. Chicken and beef though, I have to buy from the grocery store. Both are a staple in Deeken's diet and the best way to keep my costs down. I wish I could afford to feed exclusively animals raised on species appropriate diets.


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

oh natalie, that was just a little dig...i probably should not have said, but i figured you'd get it.


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

Amy18 said:


> Uh oh i'm starting to think i've been going about this wrong. I've been feeding her raw for about 8 months now. I have always trimmed ALL fat off of the red meats including heart, i think maybe that thick dense fat worries me because i've heard yorkies are prone to pancreatitis. The only fat she gets is through poultry skin and oils i've been giving her. There are some days she gets no fat at all. It's funny you mention the paleo diet because that's pretty much how i eat. Thanks so much for this, i really didn't consider how important fat is in a PMR diet.


you're welcome....pancreatitis is not a disease of fat intake. the pancreas has some overlap but mostly it's the sugar station.

all organs will be affected when one starts to have a problem, which is often why liver problems will spill over to the kidneys and pancreas, etc...

it's the beauty of how our brains and dogs' brains work, to adapt, always adapt for survival.

that's why kibble fed dogs survive....because they're bodies adapt just like a smoker's body will try to adapt. that's not to say there won't be digestive issues....but the brain will do anything to survive and adaptation is key.

bubba the pug has a barrel chest and that is because he could not get enough oxygen because his stupid former owners who should be shot did not have a simple roto rooter procedure done on his nasal passages. so in order to get enough air, he had to over expand his chest. 

adaptation at its finest.

don't trim the fat anymore. or, if you have to, make sure you feed it back because i can understand certain cuts being a little too fatty.


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

Sprocket said:


> I love refering to it as a journey. That is truly what it has become for me. My friends may think I'm wacko but I care, and I actually enjoy it. I have loved learning what my dogs needs are. I finally feel more at peace with their health.
> 
> FWIW - I vaguely remember reading on here that they NEED fat in their diet due to how lean most meats are. My dogs get a good amount but it varies because I am still trying to figure out what is a good ratio for them on any given day. Mikey gets less because he seems to put it on too much.


what i did was more or less leave the fat on, but cut back on the amount they were fed each day, because fat has more calories. that way, they did not gain weight.

so natalie's guideline actually works here too....protein 70% - fat 10% - organs 10% - bone 10%


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

DeekenDog said:


> This is all so interesting to me. To be honest, I have never paid a huge amount of attention to the amount of fat on Deeken's meat. I just tend to feed it as it is. It seems to be working for us but I find this to be incredibly interesting. Your dogs look great.
> 
> As to the factory farming, well I wish I could afford all grass-fed. I do my best and I pay a bit more to order my lamb heart and beef heart through my local raw food pet store because it is grass-fed. I also get wild venison and moose during hunting season which makes a huge difference. Chicken and beef though, I have to buy from the grocery store. Both are a staple in Deeken's diet and the best way to keep my costs down. I wish I could afford to feed exclusively animals raised on species appropriate diets.


i think it's balance over time, too.

you do make the effort to get your dogs natural food. even humans don't have the perfect nutrition all the time. how boring and expensive that would be.

and, as natalie said.....anything is better than kibble. i really believe that, too.

you're doing great.....and deeken looks fabulous and you knew enough to include the fat whereas i didn't.


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

NewYorkDogue said:


> Exactly what my reaction was. I don't know how you can stand it, having those uber-sweet faces staring up at you like that...
> 
> Anyway, thank you for the update. Indeed, it's a positive development, and I think we've all learned something from following your journey.


look who's talking. i just want to get slobbered on by mateo. 

thank you. bubba has turned into a wonderful dog from the mess he was....and malia has always been about the sweetest dog you'll ever meet.


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## Noodlesmadison (Sep 18, 2011)

These two have the cutest faces ever. <3


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

Noodlesmadison said:


> These two have the cutest faces ever. <3


i am a great lover of shih tzus....i love your dog.


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## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

Noodlesmadison said:


> These two have the cutest faces ever. <3


Ditto. Irresistable, for sure.

I have been a long proponent of low-carb eating such as Atkins, so I never even considered trimming the fat off any meat. I guess I did something right by accident.

I'm glad you did the experiment - and especially glad that your dogs have such gorgeous coats and are doing so well.


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## Liz (Sep 27, 2010)

I am glad to hear you have figured out what Bubba and malia need. I am also proud of you because you were willing to add anything they needed. I think prey model raw is the ideal. I also know sometimes, especially on a dog that has been kibble fed a while they could use a boost we might find in herbs, veg, etc but long term, barring specific illness/disease prey model raw is it! We are impatient people and have been taught that their is a pill or quick fix for everything. Patience is a virtue.LOL


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## JayJayisme (Aug 2, 2009)

Thank you, thank you, thank you RE! 

I've been trying to beat the "animal fat is good" into people's heads for awhile now but I know it gets categorically dismissed by most. We humans really have been brainwashed by the "fat is evil" mantra from our government and the medical establishment, which is really sad.

Your "Great Experiment" will go a long way to help solidify the importance of the need for the "evil macronutrient" in our pet's diets. Plenty of omnivores could learn a thing or two from it as well. :wink:

Thanks again for following up and posting your results and all the associated information. Even though this is anecdotal information, it very well demonstrates the need for fat in a high protein diet.

Seeds are for birds! :biggrin:

Jay


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## eternalstudent (Jul 22, 2010)

Thanks for the update Re. Its great to see the little guys looking so good 

Jay is so right on this

We have to remember that animals are not humans and that humans as a rule get things so wrong for themselves that if we applied those same wrong rules to our puppers........ well you get the picture.

Most meat that is raised has been selectively bred to be lean, lean, lean. It is so hard to find well marbled beef and pork with flavor. Yes I know you CAN find it but it is not readily available.

I know my little pup has had really dry skin and I have been in a desperate rush to up his oil / fat intake 

Pup 4 days into life with me









and now









But it is a slow process :-(

I don't know how a 70:10:10:10 ratio would work I think it would confuse the issue for a lot of folks, the 80:10:10 works great if we could get natural meat but it is more that we want to make sure we stop trimming meat as soon as possible, and couple this with buy the cuts of meat that still have the fat on them.


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

Liz said:


> I am glad to hear you have figured out what Bubba and malia need. I am also proud of you because you were willing to add anything they needed. I think prey model raw is the ideal. I also know sometimes, especially on a dog that has been kibble fed a while they could use a boost we might find in herbs, veg, etc but long term, barring specific illness/disease prey model raw is it! We are impatient people and have been taught that their is a pill or quick fix for everything. Patience is a virtue.LOL





Liz said:


> I am glad to hear you have figured out what Bubba and malia need. I am also proud of you because you were willing to add anything they needed. I think prey model raw is the ideal. I also know sometimes, especially on a dog that has been kibble fed a while they could use a boost we might find in herbs, veg, etc but long term, barring specific illness/disease prey model raw is it! We are impatient people and have been taught that their is a pill or quick fix for everything. Patience is a virtue.LOL


liz, you KNOW that i adore you and hold you in very high esteem. i have a great respect for your knowledge....

and you also know how resistant i am to do anything that i either haven't proven for myself or just doesn't make sense...and i need to learn things for myself, although things you've taught me have been invaluable in other ways in other areas.

i am honoured that we are friends and that you are proud of me. this lesson has been a long time coming for my dogs, although i'm pretty sure they didn't suffer when they were getting the tiny bits of seeds and veggies and fruits.

i've always known that fat doesn't make humans fat. overeating does and eating crap food does.

with dogs, however, i'm looking at a 22 lb pug and a duck neck that is fatty, so it seemed so logical to trim the fat.

until i realised that dogs use fat as their energy source, even though i knew, i didn't KNOW.

now i do. 

i'm proud of me, too. i am finally learning how to feed raw.


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

JayJayisme said:


> Thank you, thank you, thank you RE!
> 
> I've been trying to beat the "animal fat is good" into people's heads for awhile now but I know it gets categorically dismissed by most. We humans really have been brainwashed by the "fat is evil" mantra from our government and the medical establishment, which is really sad.
> 
> ...


with all of the research, i now realise all i have is anecdotal....and i realised it for humans, but not for my dogs.

not that i never fed fat. i don't see fat as evil. i thought i was feeding an amount that was proportionate to their size. 

turns out i wasn't. oops. my bad.

but we live. we learn.

i thought, for the purposes of my education, since medical school does squat to educate us on nutrition....and for anyone who was interested in learning about raw feeding the way the universe intended......i hope this experiment is something that others can see and possibly offer some help.

it's been two years and a world of knowledge later, plus the future with all that that entails.

i always thought the human body was fascinating. now i learn that dogs are also fascinating in their similarities and differences.


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## eternalstudent (Jul 22, 2010)

magicre said:


> i always thought the human body was fascinating. now i learn that dogs are also fascinating in their similarities and differences.


So true and the cause of of so much of my frustration.

(BTW I am far better at doing lymph node exams spotting heart sound splitting on dogs than I am on humans!! oops)


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

eternalstudent said:


> Thanks for the update Re. Its great to see the little guys looking so good
> 
> Jay is so right on this
> 
> ...


i wouldn't worry about the dry skin....mine have dry skin at the moment, too...well, malia does especially. see, that's where emu oil does such a great job, externally.....

your pup looks great. nice curves...

here's the thing. 

most of the time, i'm feeding grass fed/grass finished beef. my kids get little to no chicken because they are small, don't eat much, so it affords me a little more latitude....and i'm no longer in school 

the meat is leaner because it is grass fed/grass finished....the meat i ate as a kid was well marbled.....because hell yeah, they pasture raised the cattle to 800 or so pounds as they do today and then feed corn...'course, who knows what is in the feed now...but that was then.

and that's what i failed to consider.....

when you feed grass fed/grass finished beef, goat, lamb, fish....not enough fat.

it wasn't until i received these duck necks with their skin on and that marvelous fattiness that i realised they were not getting enough fat.

i wasn't feeling well and i was just throwing the neck down, no trimming...and voila...bubba grew fur.

i was no longer up to preparing the food for them, so they were getting chunks of beef tongue and pork ribs and other items, without the seeds and the veggies.

it was, i admit, quite by accident that this all came about.

and it was an AHA! moment, too. we all learn differently. for me, it was visually watching hour by hour bubba growing fur on his face. he is, after all, a pug, and they grow fur as fast as they shed it 

i know the 70:10:10:10 guideline is probably not going to catch on, but that was natalie's way, i believe, of stating how important fat is....

and how important red meats are....nice fatty red meat.


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

eternalstudent said:


> So true and the cause of of so much of my frustration.
> 
> (BTW I am far better at doing lymph node exams spotting heart sound splitting on dogs than I am on humans!! oops)


i hear that....i've forgotten more than i remember because i dealt with psychiatry. the only reason i remember anything was this. i always always always remembered the homicidal little boy who kept trying to kill his mother. it took so long to finally allergy test him to find out he was a one in a million kid who had an allergy to orange juice.

because of that, when a client came to me, i sent them off to be physically tested. a glioma can make you as nuts as your parents.


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## Noodlesmadison (Sep 18, 2011)

magicre said:


> i am a great lover of shih tzus....i love your dog.


Thank you! She is the best thing that ever happened to me 
My hubby is allergic to pugs and others alike so we are probably going to stick to shih tzus in the future. I do wish I could have a pug though!


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

Noodlesmadison said:


> Thank you! She is the best thing that ever happened to me
> My hubby is allergic to pugs and others alike so we are probably going to stick to shih tzus in the future. I do wish I could have a pug though!


i don't know that i would ever get another pug, as great as they are.....they were bred, purely for companions and that they are.....

but they are like Pigpen with the shedding. it's awful....and i don't care how much i brush them and get them groomed, i should have decorated all in black between the pug and the corgi mix. 

but i do love him. he is possibly with the exception of my male shih tzu bandit...who has since left me....the best dog i've ever had.


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## JayJayisme (Aug 2, 2009)

magicre said:


> when you feed grass fed/grass finished beef, goat, lamb, fish....not enough fat.


RE, ask your grassfed meat supplier if they will sell you suet (kidney fat). I buy this to make tallow (for me) and I feed the cracklings from it to my dogs. But I also put some of it aside to add to their meals. In the wild, they would eat this. Beef processors do not often sell it to consumers because of the public aversion to fat. But man, it is good stuff, and if you can find it, it is usually dirt cheap.


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## Maritan (Nov 11, 2011)

Really late to this party, but wow they look fantastic. Congrats on figuring things out for your pups.

My 12 or 13 year old Dalmatian (adopted, don't know her actual age) is also doing fantastic thanks to the BARF/ PMR diet. She's behaving like a puppy at times and is (heart warmingly) annoying in her enthusiasm for life now.


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

JayJayisme said:


> RE, ask your grassfed meat supplier if they will sell you suet (kidney fat). I buy this to make tallow (for me) and I feed the cracklings from it to my dogs. But I also put some of it aside to add to their meals. In the wild, they would eat this. Beef processors do not often sell it to consumers because of the public aversion to fat. But man, it is good stuff, and if you can find it, it is usually dirt cheap.


thanks, but i'm good...i have plenty of dog sheep fat and duck neck fat. we're feeding more pork.

and i just ordered goose with skin pieces...they were getting fat....just not enough. 

make chicken fat too for them....man, i love me some chicken fat  i render my own....so they get that now, too...plus when i make a straight broth, i use fattier cuts of meat and they get that layer off the top....pure clean fat. make that myself too. 

man, i've become so domesticated.....


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

Maritan said:


> Really late to this party, but wow they look fantastic. Congrats on figuring things out for your pups.
> 
> My 12 or 13 year old Dalmatian (adopted, don't know her actual age) is also doing fantastic thanks to the BARF/ PMR diet. She's behaving like a puppy at times and is (heart warmingly) annoying in her enthusiasm for life now.


i'm glad to her that....so you feed veggies and fruits and grains? along with bone, organ and proteins?

thank you. it's been quite the journey.


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## Maritan (Nov 11, 2011)

Actually, no grains. She's allergic to wheat, but I would never feed any of my dogs grains whether allergic or not. The only reason my Dal is on a BARF diet (she gets pureed veggies along with meat, bone and organ, small quantities of fruits occasionally as treats) is because of they are genetically predisposed to hyperuricosuria. If she wasn't she'd be on PMR like 3 year old Border Collie.


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

Maritan said:


> Actually, no grains. She's allergic to wheat, but I would never feed any of my dogs grains whether allergic or not. The only reason my Dal is on a BARF diet (she gets pureed veggies along with meat, bone and organ, small quantities of fruits occasionally as treats) is because of they are genetically predisposed to hyperuricosuria. If she wasn't she'd be on PMR like 3 year old Border Collie.


have they ever gotten hyperuricosuria?


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## Maritan (Nov 11, 2011)

No they haven't. But, I figured, I'd err on the safe side for the Dalmatian especially seeing how she's 12-13 years of age and I just want her to be happy and healthy for her twilight years. Border Collies don't have the HUU issue, so she's PMR-ing all the way.


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

Maritan said:


> No they haven't. But, I figured, I'd err on the safe side for the Dalmatian especially seeing how she's 12-13 years of age and I just want her to be happy and healthy for her twilight years. Border Collies don't have the HUU issue, so she's PMR-ing all the way.


i didn't mean to sound as if i were grilling you...i was curious....and i agree...if there is a pre disposition toward an issue and your gut says that you need to feed a certain way, then this is what you did out of love and concern....i can appreciate the research you put into your decision...

my dogs can't tolerate salmon oil.....and they were both losing fur, but certainly they did not have a health issue...although, had i not found the answer, they might have.

kudos to you.


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## AveryandAudrey (Sep 20, 2010)

They are looking great! My husband would love you pug.


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## Maritan (Nov 11, 2011)

magicre said:


> i didn't mean to sound as if i were grilling you...i was curious....and i agree...if there is a pre disposition toward an issue and your gut says that you need to feed a certain way, then this is what you did out of love and concern....i can appreciate the research you put into your decision...
> 
> my dogs can't tolerate salmon oil.....and they were both losing fur, but certainly they did not have a health issue...although, had i not found the answer, they might have.
> 
> kudos to you.


I know you weren't grilling me. It's all good.  I'm very happy that I have, essentially, a 12 or 13 year old puppy full of energy and that you seem to have the same. The kind of happiness and peace of mind that we get when we look at our long time companions and see them glowing with health is just invaluable. I'm glad you found that too.


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