# Chicken Meal vs Chicken By-Product Meal



## claybuster

If you like to do comparisons, here are some numbers:

*Chicken Meal* 

Typical Analysis 
Crude Protein 63.00% 
Crude Fat 12.00% 
Crude Fiber 2.50% 
Ash 18.00% 
Moisture 4.50% 
Grind 99% thru #12 
Color Golden Brown 
Digestibility 90.00%+ 
*Metabolizable Energy 1,579 Kcal/lb=3,474 Kcal/kg *



Minerals & Vitamins 
Calcium 4.00% 
Phosphorus 2.00% 
Available Phosphorus 2.00% 
Salt Equivalent 1.50% 
Sodium 0.60% 
Chloride 0.90% 
Potassium 0.60% 
Choline 5,992 mg/kg 



Amino Acid Profile



Aspartic Acid 5.14% 
Threonine 2.80% 
Serine 2.87% 
Glutamic Acid 8.36% 
Proline 3.76% 
Glycine 7.39% 
Alanine 4.80% 
Cystine 0.95% 
Methionine 1.30% 
Isoleucine 2.85% 
Hydroxyproline 2.48% 
Leucine 4.28% 
Tyrosine 1.70% 
Phenylalanine 2.52% 
Histidine 1.39% 
Lysine 4.30% 
TSAA 2.25% 
Ammonia 0.73% 
Arginine 4.61% 
Tryptophan 0.66% 
Valine 2.84% 
Taurine 0.40% 

*65% Poultry By-Product Meal Pet Food Grade*


Typical Analysis 
Crude Protein 65.00% 
Crude Fat 12.50% 
Crude Fiber 2.50% 
Ash 12.00% 
Moisture 5.50% 
Grind 99% thru #12 
Color Golden Brown 
Digestibility 90.00%+ 
*Metabolizable Energy 1,575 Kcal/lb=3,465 Kcal/kg *
TDN 78.00% 
NEL 0.08 
UIP 60.00% 



Minerals & Vitamins 
Calcium 3.60% 
Phosphorus 1.80% 
Available Phosphorus 1.80% 
Salt Equivalent 1.50% 
Sodium 0.60% 
Chloride 0.90% 
Potassium 0.90% 
Manganese 10 mg/kg 
Choline 5,940 mg/kg 
Magnesium 0.20% 



Amino Acid Profile



Aspartic Acid 5.10% 
Threonine 2.71% 
Serine 2.59% 
Glutamic Acid 9.93% 
Proline 4.26% 
Glycine 9.07% 
Alanine 5.08% 
Cystine 0.62% 
Methionine 1.30% 
Valine 2.54% 
Isoleucine 2.71% 
Leucine 4.55% 
Tyrosine 2.21% 
Phenylalanine 2.79% 
Histidine 1.23% 
Lysine 4.30% 
TSAA 1.92% 
Ammonia 0.83% 
Arginine 4.88% 
Tryptophan 0.41% 
Taurine 0.38% 
Hydroxyproline 2.23% 


*Sources:*

65% Poultry By-Product Meal

Chicken Meal


----------



## RawFedDogs

Very interesting. There must be more "rejects" thrown in the by-product bin than I thought. Those would be chickens with cancerous growths, tumors, and infected open wounds. I didn't realize those made up such a large percentage of the by-product meal. I wonder what makes up the other 35%? 

Good information. I sure would love to see an ingredients list on both the chicken by-product meal and chicken meal.

*ETA:* I wonder how the financing works. Are the rendering plants paid to haul off this waste or do they have to buy it and pay for it?


----------



## ChattyCathy

OK. Bear w/me a moment... I find that alot of you "guys" are quite knowledgeable about the food nutrition and what should and shouldn't be in dog food. I'm still learning and don't quite understand what it is I should be looking for in a quality, good or bad dog food (kibble). I'm learning that no grain is better than grain. But when is it ok to give some grain? Or not? Is there somewhere I can read up on this so as not to waste anyone's time? Any recommendations? 

And, w/the above list that Claybuster has posted (I love comparisons) I don't know what to look for or not. Can you tell I'm nieve about this stuff. And, I would GREATLY appreciate how to do this. For instance, I see ash in one and not the other... is this good or bad? If I've posted this in the wrong place please let me know where I should post this. THANK YOU!!


----------



## RawFedDogs

ChattyCathy said:


> I'm learning that no grain is better than grain. But when is it ok to give some grain? Or not?


All grain is inappropriate for dogs.



> Is there somewhere I can read up on this so as not to waste anyone's time? Any recommendations?


Check out http://www.dogfoodpruject.com
Particularly the following pages:
The Dog Food Project - Ingredients to avoid
The Dog Food Project - Grading kibble - easily?
The Dog Food Project - How does your Dog Food Brand compare?

More good pages would be:
Raw Feeding 
Raw Feeding FAQ
The Many Myths of Raw Feeding
Raw Meaty Bones



> For instance, I see ash in one and not the other... is this good or bad?


I think you can get information on ash on the "ingredients to avoid" page of dogfoodproject.com.

There are a lot of us that are knowledgable but that doesn't mean we agree on everything. Seems the more we know, the more we find little nit picking things to disagree about. :smile:

Personally I know that dogs are wolves and while wolves are carnivores should eat nothing but meat, bones, and organs of any animal they can catch and kill. I think there is not a kibble that is made that you should subject your dog to eating. They are all bad without exception. Some are more bad than others but basically there is very little difference between them. Other's aren't so strict as I am but of course I am the one who is right. :smile: :smile: :smile:


----------



## claybuster

ChattyCathy said:


> And, w/the above list that Claybuster has posted (I love comparisons) I don't know what to look for or not. Can you tell I'm nieve about this stuff. And, I would GREATLY appreciate how to do this. For instance, I see ash in one and not the other... is this good or bad? If I've posted this in the wrong place please let me know where I should post this. THANK YOU!!


I think the important thing to note is CM and CBPM are almost identical in profile, so when you see either one listed as a #1 ingredient, the nutritional value would be very similar. Unless of course you want to believe this blender only gets quality chickens and that blender gets the ones that fell off the truck...lol. You're welcome Cathy, glad you like the comparisons!


----------



## claybuster

Also, it is OK to be skeptical when visiting sites like the dogfoodproject. You will find the info mainly a reflection of industry norm, which is the best approach in feeding your dog like an omnivore.


----------



## rannmiller

claybuster said:


> You will find the info mainly a reflection of industry norm, which is the best approach in feeding your dog like an omnivore.


Which we all know, dogs are not; they are carnivores.


----------



## ChattyCathy

RawFedDogs said:


> Check out http://www.dogfoodpruject.com
> Particularly the following pages:
> The Dog Food Project - Ingredients to avoid
> The Dog Food Project - Grading kibble - easily?
> The Dog Food Project - How does your Dog Food Brand compare?
> 
> More good pages would be:
> Raw Feeding
> Raw Feeding FAQ
> The Many Myths of Raw Feeding
> Raw Meaty Bones


Thanks for the above. I put them all on my bookmark to read when I have the time to do so. 




RawFedDogs said:


> There are a lot of us that are knowledgable but that doesn't mean we agree on everything. Seems the more we know, the more we find little nit picking things to disagree about.


I know and I love reading these posts. (ha, ha)



RawFedDogs said:


> Personally I know that dogs are wolves and while wolves are carnivores should eat nothing but meat, bones, and organs of any animal they can catch and kill. I think there is not a kibble that is made that you should subject your dog to eating. They are all bad without exception. Some are more bad than others but basically there is very little difference between them. Other's aren't so strict as I am but of course I am the one who is right. :smile: :smile: :smile:


I know RFD how you feel about this but I'm not there yet and not sure if I ever will be. But, I am checking it out. Thanks for all your good advice! :biggrin:


----------



## ChattyCathy

claybuster said:


> I think the important thing to note is CM and CBPM are almost identical in profile, so when you see either one listed as a #1 ingredient, the nutritional value would be very similar. Unless of course you want to believe this blender only gets quality chickens and that blender gets the ones that fell off the truck...lol. You're welcome Cathy, glad you like the comparisons!


OK. Another question. If the chicken by-products contain the yucky parts (i.e. cancerous stuff, etc.) isn't chicken meal better by comparison?


----------



## LoveNewfies

The difference in wording in the definitions of each, Poultry By-Product Meal and Poultry By-Products, is such that poultry by-product meal is allowed to consist of *rendered* clean parts, whereas poultry by-products must consist of non-rendered clean parts. 

In my eyes, it's a catch 22 - meals, which allow rendered parts, are likely to be more digestible because the ingredients have been ground and reduced in particle size, making some ingredients that might not be bio-available otherwise more utilizable. However, you are likely looking at ingredients from rendered poultry. The flip side, the ingredient "poultry by-products" is not ground or reduced to smaller particle sizes and *may* not be as utilizable depending upon the actual ingredients. Which one is actually better? Well, again, it's a catch 22. Knowing that the ingredients in the meal are likely from rendered sources can be a bit iffy, but meals are required to have particular nutritional content whereas by-products themselves do not.

For these reasons, I don't typically recommend foods that rely heavily on by-products in any form. By-products in the form that raw feeders give are a bit different as we are giving fresh "by-products" and are somewhat particular about what by-products we give. I do not feed intestines. I do feed organs that may otherwise not be appealing to the human food industry.


----------



## claybuster

ChattyCathy said:


> OK. Another question. If the chicken by-products contain the yucky parts (i.e. cancerous stuff, etc.) isn't chicken meal better by comparison?


It may contain the yucky parts, but to assume it must mean these birds had cancer or leprosy is kinda silly. One is bone and carcass, and the other is bone, carcass, and the added bonus of some organ meat. The only thing that really makes one better than the other by comparison is personal aesthetic appeal.


----------



## claybuster

LoveNewfies said:


> In my eyes, it's a catch 22 - meals, which allow rendered parts, are likely to be more digestible ...


I follow what your saying, but if you note in the comparisons, both meal and by-product meal have a digestibility of 90%+ and they are both going through the same grind of 99 through #12. I would assert they are both as equally digestible and no catch 22 in that scenario. I think most feel like yourself though as far as what to serve, if we don't eat then it doesn't go to the dog....aesthetic appeal factor.


----------



## ChattyCathy

claybuster said:


> I think the important thing to note is CM and CBPM are almost identical in profile, so when you see either one listed as a #1 ingredient, the nutritional value would be very similar. Unless of course you want to believe this blender only gets quality chickens and that blender gets the ones that fell off the truck...lol. You're welcome Cathy, glad you like the comparisons!


Good to know. I'll keep it in mind.


----------



## ChattyCathy

LoveNewfies said:


> The difference in wording in the definitions of each, Poultry By-Product Meal and Poultry By-Products, is such that poultry by-product meal is allowed to consist of *rendered* clean parts, whereas poultry by-products must consist of non-rendered clean parts.
> 
> In my eyes, it's a catch 22 - meals, which allow rendered parts, are likely to be more digestible because the ingredients have been ground and reduced in particle size, making some ingredients that might not be bio-available otherwise more utilizable. However, you are likely looking at ingredients from rendered poultry. The flip side, the ingredient "poultry by-products" is not ground or reduced to smaller particle sizes and *may* not be as utilizable depending upon the actual ingredients. Which one is actually better? Well, again, it's a catch 22. Knowing that the ingredients in the meal are likely from rendered sources can be a bit iffy, but meals are required to have particular nutritional content whereas by-products themselves do not.
> 
> For these reasons, I don't typically recommend foods that rely heavily on by-products in any form. By-products in the form that raw feeders give are a bit different as we are giving fresh "by-products" and are somewhat particular about what by-products we give. I do not feed intestines. I do feed organs that may otherwise not be appealing to the human food industry.


Also good to know. Thanks.


----------



## Plymouth2009

Byproducts are disgusting! It can be composed of heads, feet, necks, bones, blood, cancerous tissue, 4-D animals, etc. I would never feed my dog ANYTHING that contained byproducts. I love and care for them too much to risk their health and wellness.


----------



## ChattyCathy

Plymouth2009 said:


> Byproducts are disgusting! It can be composed of heads, feet, necks, bones, blood, cancerous tissue, 4-D animals, etc. I would never feed my dog ANYTHING that contained byproducts. I love and care for them too much to risk their health and wellness.


I'm curious... what do you feed all of your dogs? Do they get the same foods?


----------



## RawFedDogs

Plymouth2009 said:


> Byproducts are disgusting! It can be composed of heads, feet, necks, bones, blood, cancerous tissue, 4-D animals, etc. I would never feed my dog ANYTHING that contained byproducts. I love and care for them too much to risk their health and wellness.


I think that was the whole point of this thread. Even though by-products are not very pleasing estheticly, they are very nutritous and healthy for your dog. Remember that in the wild your dog would gladly eat all those by-products.


----------



## Postal

ChattyCathy said:


> I'm curious... what do you feed all of your dogs? Do they get the same foods?


10 bucks says Artemis Maximal !!!!!


----------



## ChattyCathy

Postal said:


> 10 bucks says Artemis Maximal !!!!!


ha, ha, ha. We'll see when/if he answers...:smile:


----------



## Postal

ChattyCathy said:


> ha, ha, ha. We'll see when/if he answers...:smile:


I guess we'll never know. I think RFD banned him because he deleted all his threads lol. Farewell! :smile:

This board is becoming quite exciting hehe


----------



## claybuster

Plymouth2009 said:


> Byproducts are disgusting! It can be composed of heads, feet, necks, bones, blood, cancerous tissue, 4-D animals, etc. I would never feed my dog ANYTHING that contained byproducts. I love and care for them too much to risk their health and wellness.




I am assuming this user has already been deleted because I don't see the posts any longer. However, I would like to comment, I love and care for my dogs as well, and that is why I welcome CBPM in my dogs diet, because I know it delivers animal source proteins in abundance. Like I said before, you guys can keep the seaweed and other plant matter containing sub-lethal dosed of poisons, I'll stick with CBPM.

BTW, chickens are raised and slaughtered for the human consumption market. There is nothing 4-D or cancerous about them, and if anyone actually believes that, I would think very naive and gullible to do so.


----------



## ChattyCathy

Postal said:


> I guess we'll never know. I think RFD banned him because he deleted all his threads lol. Farewell! :smile:
> 
> This board is becoming quite exciting hehe


Wow! I didn't realize that. Yeah! I love the debates.


----------



## ChattyCathy

Gotta say... no matter what is said... I believe WE ALL LOVE OUR DOGS! (And other furry friends, too) :biggrin:


----------



## RawFedDogs

claybuster said:


> BTW, chickens are raised and slaughtered for the human consumption market.


You are absolutely correct.



> There is nothing 4-D or cancerous about them, and if anyone actually believes that, I would think very naive and gullible to do so.


You are partially correct. Cancerous chickens, chickens with abnormal growths of any kind, open wounds or sores, and 4D don't make it into the grocery store but they certainly exist and in pretty large numbers. 

My brother owns 16 chicken houses so I have a little knowledge of how they operate. He walks through each house a couple of times a day picking up dead chickens. These chickens go into a pit on his property and don't make it to the processing plant. 

When the chickens are 8 weeks old these huge tractor trailor trucks pull up about sundown. Chickens are caught by hand, put in crates and loaded onto the trucks. The catchers are working in the dark and can't see the chickens they are catching.

When the chickens arrive at the processing plant the next morning they are slaughtered, de-feathered, and hung on a long conveyor belt. This is the first time they can be seen without feathers so this is when many growths, cancers, and open wounds and sores are discovered for the first time. These chickens are thrown into the by-proiduct bins along with the other by-products.

Some chickens are destined to be sold as whole chickens and they go directly to the washing and packing area where they are looked at one last time before they are packaged up in cases. 

Other chickens are destined to be sold as parts and send down a different conveyer where legs, wings, thighs, backs and breasts are removed. More defective chickens are found in this process and thrown into the by-product bin. If any parts fall on the floor during their trip down the conveyer belts they go into the by-product bin also.

Still other chickens are destined to be sold as boneless meat so they go through a deboning maching which takes the meat off the bones. The left over carcasses after the human usuable meat has been removed is put into the "chicken meal" bin. There is still meat left by the deboning machines so there is still meat in chicken meal but it is mostly bone and connective tissue.


----------



## chowder

Your post reminded me why I hate chickens....the larger animal classes in vet tech school almost made me a vegetarian. Once you've had to delouse a chicken, you don't want to eat it again! I don't have a problem with pork though!


----------



## rannmiller

Ewwww! RFD, thank you for reminding me why I'm still a vegetarian, gross.


----------



## claybuster

Found another place breaks down their meals, however can't be sure what you're getting. Is it meal or by-product meal...I'm not sure. It says BYM in the description, but the link says just meal, making it somewhat confusing.

Results look similar, with one slightly higher in protein and lower in ash. The higher protein low ash is probably the BPM and the other just Meal.

ROTHSAY'S POULTRY CO-PRODUCTS

Rothsay's POULTRY MEAL product specifications.

lower ash, higher protein
Rothsay's LOW ASH POULTRY MEAL.

*Bonus link from the company:*
Rothsay: All about Rendering, a form of recycling.


----------



## claybuster

There are a lot of ingredients in dog food that bring up concern. I have even heard stories of our euthanatized dogs and cats ending up at the rendering plant. IMO to think that only CBPM is the one nasty and the rest must be OK
is kind of silly.

IMO diets that start off with a named meat source like chicken and beef are probably the biggest offenders when it comes to being too weak in animal source proteins, and they too contain some nasty parts folks would not welcome in their dogs diet. People like to envision a hand wearing a white glove trimming juicy cuts of breast meat going into their dog food, but it is just not the case. The law gives manufacturers a lot of leeway in that area
and odds have it you're not getting those prime choice cuts of beef or chicken you think you're getting in the dog food. IE, they are allowed to give you just the skin and called it meat. Skin may be nutritious and contain proteins, but not the same benefits as meat muscle. You could be getting one big glob of nasty nerve endings and they can call it meat. People have no clue what they are getting yet hope Frank Purdue is overseeing the process hoping the best cuts of breast meat make it to the dog food bowl. Reality is far different. Now this is kind of nasty and may raise some concerns but I feel it is very true. They can take a meat by-product part not going to the human consumption market like some organ meat and call it a named meat source, legally. You could be getting the groin and testicles without knowledge yet they can call these by-products part 'meat'. If you think you're getting prime rib, or just breast meat cuts for your dogs food, think again.


----------



## claybuster

EVO starts: Turkey, Chicken, Turkey meal, Chicken meal. Ingredients #3 and #4 contain more animal source protein than ingredients #1 and #2. Sounds weird I know, but that is the reality. That is the reason a named meat source as a #1 ingredient is nothing more than deception and a terrible option for the dog...but it makes owners feel good. I use EVO as just an example, nothing against the product, just not an option for my dogs (too many omnivore ingredients). CM or CBPM as a #1 is a far better option for dogs in _any_ formula.


----------



## Doc

I think Frank Perdue is dead Claybuster, but Frank Jr. is still around!:tongue:

So is the saying "parts is parts" still true?


----------



## BigAl

I grew up on a Dairy/Beef cattle farm in central Missouri. My question is if dogs, wolves and coyotes are carnivores and shouldn't eat grain of any kind why when we had a deceased cow and would drag it off to the "Bone Pile" why would the dogs and coyotes eat the stomach contents first!!!! The stomach contents of a cow is; siliage, corn, hay well you get the point all grain based!!! After the first night of being there the stomach and organs were ate by the dogs and coyotes. The rest of the carcass was eaten by crows and buzzards!!! Seems to me like people like to think they know more than animal instinct to survive. We had farm dogs that were loose and free to roam and were fed table scraps and fresh cow milk and they still elected to eat the cattle feed (Corn, oats, barley, etc) that the cows dropped or left behind!


----------



## Kat

Cows shouldnt even be eating corn, it is not species appropriate - they should be eating grass. Farmers feed corn because it is cheap and fattens them up quickly. If an animal is desperate enough they will eat anything, including the corn, oats, and barley.


----------



## cast71

it's probably impossible to feed all farm animals natural grass, with no synthetic fertilizers and still produce the same meat output to feed this out of control population. what we need is better resource management;0)


----------



## 1605

BigAl said:


> I grew up on a Dairy/Beef cattle farm in central Missouri. My question is if dogs, wolves and coyotes are carnivores and shouldn't eat grain of any kind why when we had a deceased cow and would drag it off to the "Bone Pile" why would the dogs and coyotes eat the stomach contents first!!!! The stomach contents of a cow is; siliage, corn, hay well you get the point all grain based!!! After the first night of being there the stomach and organs were ate by the dogs and coyotes. The rest of the carcass was eaten by crows and buzzards!!!


How about because that area of the cow is the easiest for a predator to eat? There's no obstruction to getting at the organs that way.



> Seems to me like people like to think they know more than animal instinct to survive. We had farm dogs that were loose and free to roam and were fed table scraps and fresh cow milk and they still elected to eat the cattle feed (Corn, oats, barley, etc) that the cows dropped or left behind!


Just a thought... maybe they were hungry and had no other choice. Unless you were feeding 30+ people, I don't imagine they got much sustenance from table scraps. As for milk... how is that useful for adult dogs?


----------



## Molly-Joy

Please tell me thin, what is pork by-products and is it good for a dog with gastroenteritis?


----------



## xellil

Molly-Joy said:


> Please tell me thin, what is pork by-products and is it good for a dog with gastroenteritis?


By-product is what is left over after all the good stuff is used for other things. Basically it's what they would throw in the garbage as slaughterhouse waste except they can make money off of it by putting it in dog food.


----------

