# Your Decisions



## lk9984 (Aug 20, 2009)

I have asked in the past, and I've seen a lot of people ask "what is the truth?" Well, the truth is what works well for each individual. I've seen dogs raised on "junk" grocery/pedigree/ol' roy type foods live good, long lives and have few/no health problems. I've seen dogs on top of the line/grain free/super premium kibble with all sorts of problems...and vice-versa. I would personally like to read what the ingredients are, consider the company that sells it, and choose the best (that I can afford) for my dogs. I think a lot has to do with the individual dog, but the fact that they are carnivores and their unique needs should also be considered. So what is the truth? The only "real" way to tell, besides the obvious you can base this on is what has worked well for you and your dogs.

So, the point to this post is: What has worked best for YOU and YOUR dogs?

What do you feed, why do you feed it, how long have you been feeding it, how is your dog's health (skin, coat, teeth, weight, energy, any health problems (genetic or environmental?) How long has your average dog lived on this similar diet? I'd love to hear what you all have to say and what personal experience for you and those you know help you make your decisions. It would be great to hear from people who've been feeding the same/similar diet to their dogs/multiple dogs long-term.


----------



## harrkim120 (Feb 2, 2010)

Well, I am currently starting my dog on a raw diet, but before this I fed him a high quality kibble at all times. Mostly Wellness. He did fairly well on the Wellness through puppyhood, but became more difficult in adulthood. I tried him on Blue Buffalo Wilderness and he did horrible. This was also before it was grain-free though. After that ordeal I put him on Wellness Core and he did fairly well. No dandruff, firm stools, all that. I'm putting him on raw now because I know he could be better. When on kibble, he was defecating quite often, and it had quite a distinct odor....not too pleasant.  

The reason I'm so into what my dog eats now is because when I was a kid, I had my childhood dog, a Rhodesian Ridgeback mix. He spent his whole life eating Kibbles and Bits (we didn't know any better :frown At the age of 10, he suddenly stopped eating and drinking. After about 2 days of this, we brought him to the vet. They took bloodwork and did x-rays. Once the results came in, the vet shared the information. He had a tumor the size of a cantaloupe in his chest crushing his heart and lungs. He was put down that night. 

Now, there's no way to know for sure what caused something like that, but I'm totally convinced that the food had something to do with it, knowing all the wonderful stuff that they put in it. My opinion is that there's no way to guarantee the health and well being of my dog, but I sure can try. :biggrin:


----------



## CorgiPaws (Mar 31, 2009)

My first childhood pet was a Beagle named max. he's 14 now, and definately alive and kicking, but pretty much every organ in his body is slowly but surely declining. He was on *Pedigree* for the first eleven years of his life. Then I put him on *Canidae.* Even though canidae isn't the absolute top notch food, but he actully did show improvements on it. 


Then Champ kind of fell into my life. He was a year old when I got him, and for the first year of his life, he was on whatever was on sale. 
*Kibbles n' bits, pedigree, ol' roy, and the like*. He had grey cow-pie poop.
At the time, I put him on* Pedigree large breed adult*, and then he had orange cow pie poop. From there we went on beneful for a very short period of time, and then he had tie dye cow pie poop!! 
Then I fed him *Nutro Ultra*, not for very long as this was my first move when i had just started learning about dog food, and quickly after learned the horrors of Nutro. He did okay on it, and he had mostly solid poop, but it was huge, frequent, and rancid. He was also really really dry and itchy. 
After that we put him on *Wellness Super5Mix* (rotated the formulas) and he did really really well. 
A financial crunch forced me to make a change, and I put him on *canidae*, and I was satisfied with the results, but his coat could be better. I don't think he has many bonus points in the coat department, as wellness is the only food that really seems to help the dryness without supplementing heavily with fish oils. His stools were solid, but left streaks behind on the grass and poop scoop.
We tried Evo as well as Taste of the Wild for very short periods. The rancid diarrhea wasn't worth it. 
A wedding, moving out of state, and job change put me in yet another financial crunch, and then we put him on* kirkland Signature from CostCo*. His coat, teeth, energy, etc is exactly the same as it was on Canidae, but his stools are firmer, and clean. They leave nothing behind. We now can afford to put him back on canidae, but have no desire to, as i really don't consider it much better than Kirkland, and there's a $30/bag price difference.


Then along came Grissom. In all fairness, I'll say that Grissom can not handle carbohydrates, so he may not be the best example.
He came to me on Pedigree, and I immediately switched him to *Wellness Just for Puppy*. This was at the time that I fed Champ Wellness as well. He seemed to be doing alright on it, but has pretty bad gas, so we switched to* Innova Puppy*. For the most part he had the same results, just a little less gas. He's always had a super coat though. Around 4 months old, grissom got a case of diarrhea that lasted seven months. During this time we tried California Natural Herring and Sweet Potato and Evo Red Meat. We had no change in his condition (except he evo made his diarrhea darker, if that even counts) It turned out to eb a carbohydrate issue, and we went raw, and all symptoms disappeared.


We had Annie on *Innova Puppy with Merrick cans* for a short period when we got her, and she did very well, though she never really had much interest in eating. 

Sorry for such a long post. That is my entire experience with commercial dog foods, on the dogs I have fed them to.


I currently feed raw, but all the "whys" don't belong in this section.


----------



## kevin bradley (Aug 9, 2009)

I have evolved from Pedigree and Nutro to Canidae...Chicken Soup...TOTW....to all Natura products now. 

Interesting discussion and I don't want to start a war...but I would caution it with some thoughts...

I feel like anything eluding to "it works for my dog" is a bit short sighted. Firm poop and no diarrhea is hardly a complete and thorough way to evaluate a food. Frankly, my dogs all had pretty firm poop, no vomitting, etc...on Nutro and even Pedigree-hardly very good foods. A Dog is a living animal with a complex internal mechanism...one that can actually withstand quite a bit of abuse and neglect. For awhile. It's very possible that we would never know simply by watching our Dogs gobble down food, poop good poop...and have coats that are shiny...that the food wasn't the best.

I think these are important considerations but there are many other variables to consider in my opinion...especially the integrity of the company making the food.


----------



## lk9984 (Aug 20, 2009)

kevin bradley said:


> I have evolved from Pedigree and Nutro to Canidae...Chicken Soup...TOTW....to all Natura products now.
> 
> Interesting discussion and I don't want to start a war...but I would caution it with some thoughts...
> 
> ...


Great addition, Kevin. I absolutely agree. For me now, the company is one of the top priorities when choosing a food. You have to trust the company and trust that they are trying to do what is best for the animals. I also agree that good poop and a shiny coat doesn't mean much...that is why I geared more towards asking the overall health of the dog, longevity, any veterinary issues/etc. My sister feeds her lab ProPlan, and he seems to thrive on it, bright eyed, energetic, shiny coat, good poops... but he had some bloodwork done the other day and I believe she said his kidney levels were extremely high. Could it be the food? a genetic issue? I don't know that we'll really know for sure, but I think the food may be worth a look in this case.


----------



## lk9984 (Aug 20, 2009)

My opinion is that there's no way to guarantee the health and well being of my dog said:


> Very well said! That is exactly how I feel, I think the only thing you can do is try to do the best for your dog based on the limited facts (limited facts along with trillions of opinions!)
> 
> I do wish I could try raw... maybe one day when the time is right and I can concentrate on doing it right.


----------



## kevin bradley (Aug 9, 2009)

One hurdle we MUST get over in our food discussions is this one...and these are the ones that just make my head spin...

"I fed my Dog Ol Roy and he lived to be 100 years old"

Of course these anomolies exist. There are people who smoke their whole lives who live to be 90 years old. But how many are rotting in the Emphysema/Cancer Ward? 

I have a close friend who had a Dog live to be 17 years old and she swears that Dog ate nothing but Cat food for most of his life. It would be absurd to recommend this. Plus, that Dog may have lived to be 22 with a better diet.


----------



## DaneMama (Jun 27, 2008)

The way that I feel about this whole thing is pretty straight forward. The whole mentality of "every dog is different" to me is just plain illogical. Yes, dogs are individuals, but they all come from a common ancestor, are genetically similar (ie same species) and have the same general nutritional needs, nuff said there since that debate has been beaten into the ground.

I personally believe that the whole "every dog is different" mentality has come about from the diversity of kibble on the market. Every dog does better on a certain type of kibble, whatever that might be. BUT...their nutritional needs are the same. I will disclaim that there is the chance that there is a slight change between one individual to another...but those are slight changes depending more on "type" of dog...ie small, medium, large or activity level. Plus the cases of genetic disorder that disrupt the normal digestion process or nutritional needs.

When I fed kibble, Kirkland signature at first and then switched to EVO I was constantly battling ear infections with Emmy, loose stool with both, and tartar buildup on my dog's teeth. But overall they were doing ok. On raw with no complaints in a year and a half.


----------



## kevin bradley (Aug 9, 2009)

I agree with Natalie on the "every Dog is different" theory. Aside from Allergies, I would bet the internal workings of all Dogs are eerily similar.

Going RAW...the elephant in the room. 

Natalie,

I'm not ready to do it yet, but say I was...what is a good book/online site to start with. Literally, I'd be starting from ground zero. 

Kevin


----------



## Oz'sMommy (Sep 9, 2008)

oz ate nutro (i didn't know any better) the first few days he was with me and then came down with some mysterious gastrointestinal illness that he almost died. every test at the vet came back negative, no blockage...so all we could do was keep giving him subcut fluids and feed him boiled chicken breast and white rice. but he ended up having a notoriously sensitive stomach from that point on.

after all that i decided to feed him canned wellness food which was great for his tummy but he constantly had ear infections. we switched to natural balance sweet potato and venison kibble which helped with the tummy and helped a little with the ear infections but the kibble size was way too big and oz almost choked on it a few times. then we went to natural balance potato and duck...which gave oz really bad gas and also big light colored poop. soooo...back to canned food for awhile which helped with both but every now and again oz would puke bile. then we moved to instinct canned which seemed fine but then started adding instinct kibble. now i don't feel it was the fault of the instinct food itself...but oz's stomach was still notoriously sensitive. all this switching food was done over a year and a half mind you.

soooooo...this past summer oz got really sick, bloody diarrhea, bad vomitting. went to the vet...and he had a bleeding ulcer! well to make a long story short he was put back on chicken and rice for a couple of weeks and then one of the ladies on another forum was introduced to sojos (the fruit/veggie mix that you mix with whatever meat). so we tried that and it took a good month for oz to heal even after switching to sojos with meat added but now he has had no issues...AND also hasn't had an ear infection since! 

so he eats sojos on a meat rotation, at first rotating every six weeks but now we are down to every three weeks rotating (cooked)...chicken, buffalo, lamb & beef for the most part and every couple of weeks he gets a salmon filet. his coat is AWESOME (before it was starting to thin out and was really dry. we were at the vet a week ago (he had pulled a toenail) and she commented on how healthy he looked and how it had been a long time since they saw him last.

i am just so glad to have finally found something that works for oz. :smile::smile:


----------



## CorgiPaws (Mar 31, 2009)

danemama08 said:


> The way that I feel about this whole thing is pretty straight forward. The whole mentality of "every dog is different" to me is just plain illogical. Yes, dogs are individuals, but they all come from a common ancestor, are genetically similar (ie same species) and have the same general nutritional needs, nuff said there since that debate has been beaten into the ground.
> 
> I personally believe that the whole "every dog is different" mentality has come about from the diversity of kibble on the market. Every dog does better on a certain type of kibble, whatever that might be. BUT...their nutritional needs are the same. I will disclaim that there is the chance that there is a slight change between one individual to another...but those are slight changes depending more on "type" of dog...ie small, medium, large or activity level. Plus the cases of genetic disorder that disrupt the normal digestion process or nutritional needs.
> 
> When I fed kibble, Kirkland signature at first and then switched to EVO I was constantly battling ear infections with Emmy, loose stool with both, and tartar buildup on my dog's teeth. But overall they were doing ok. On raw with no complaints in a year and a half.


I ALMOST agree with this. 
I think there is one thing that works for every dog, and we all know what that is. 
That being said, with kibble, you're kind of working with an industry that goes off of "what can we get away with, and keep dogs alive." On an unnatural diet, there is so much unnecessary things going on, that each one will not work for every single dog. 
So in short, yes, dogs of all breeds, shapes, and sizes are the same inside, with the same nutritional needs and they can all be satisfied by the same natural diet. But, the every dog is different theory applies to kibble, because of all the species-inappropriate ingredients going on. Dogs weren't designed to eat plants, veggies, and grains. Some by luck can do it. Some can't, and it irritates me that these are seen as the "sensitive dogs with special needs." No, these are the dogs who require a natural diet for dogs. 

Anyway, just my two cents.:smile:


----------



## DaneMama (Jun 27, 2008)

kevin bradley said:


> I agree with Natalie on the "every Dog is different" theory. Aside from Allergies, I would bet the internal workings of all Dogs are eerily similar.
> 
> Going RAW...the elephant in the room.
> 
> ...


PM sent :biggrin:


----------



## DaneMama (Jun 27, 2008)

CorgiPaws said:


> I ALMOST agree with this.
> I think there is one thing that works for every dog, and we all know what that is.
> That being said, with kibble, you're kind of working with an industry that goes off of "what can we get away with, and keep dogs alive." On an unnatural diet, there is so much unnecessary things going on, that each one will not work for every single dog.
> So in short, yes, dogs of all breeds, shapes, and sizes are the same inside, with the same nutritional needs and they can all be satisfied by the same natural diet. But, the every dog is different theory applies to kibble, because of all the species-inappropriate ingredients going on. Dogs we're designed to eat plants, veggies, and grains. Some by luck can do it. Some can't, and it irritates me that these are seen as the "sensitive dogs with special needs." No, these are the dogs who require a natural diet for dogs.
> ...


Exactly...100% spot on!!!

I just didn't want to be the one to say it LOL :tongue:


----------



## kevin bradley (Aug 9, 2009)

CorgiPaws said:


> I ALMOST agree with this.
> That being said, with kibble, you're kind of working with an industry that goes off of "what can we get away with, and keep dogs alive." On an unnatural diet, there is so much unnecessary things going on, that each one will not work for every single dog.
> Anyway, just my two cents.:smile:


Corgi, I agree with this for most Dog Food companies...I'm just not certain it applies to ALL companies. Natura and Champion(Orijen) stand out to me as companies that go above and beyond. There's fresh caught Walleye in the Orijen formula...for pete's sake, if that isn't going out of their way to make a nice product, I'm not sure what is 

Overall though, I agree. Companies do whatever they need to do to make a profit. I hadn't read the ingredients in Pedigree in awhile...was just in WalMart tonight wandering around and looked at a bag. Utterly sad. I am angry at myself for ever feeding my Boys(and 1 girl) this food. Honestly, I was irresponsible owner/parent for doing this.


----------



## lilbabyvenus (Mar 3, 2010)

I feed mine Wellness Core. When we got our first chi, she was on Purina Puppy Chow, and we kept her on it for a while. I started getting coupons all the time for free bags of Purina One Puppy and we switched her to that. We noticed as she started getting older that she was starting to turn red and her skin would get puffy shortly after she ate. Soon afterwards I joined a forum and learned it was more than likely allergies. We switched her to Wellness Puppy and her skin problems soon subsided, but didn't completely go away. When she was 9 months old I switched her to Wellness Core and haven't had problems since. We did go raw for a while. And our little boy was started on raw as soon as he came to us, but it just didn't work out. We were on the go a lot. And once we were home for a while, it just seemed like nothing was different. They pooped just as much, nothing changed with their coats, their teeth, nothing... I should add, that they seem very healthy on their current diet. Their teeth are nice and white, with an (almost) daily brushing, and plenty of chews and bones. Their eyes are nice and clear, their coats are shiney, soft, and they don't shed much. They are very playful, and we haven't had any out of the ordinary vet bills, just routine vaccinations and yearly exams.


----------



## CorgiPaws (Mar 31, 2009)

kevin bradley said:


> Corgi, I agree with this for most Dog Food companies...I'm just not certain it applies to ALL companies. Natura and Champion(Orijen) stand out to me as companies that go above and beyond. There's fresh caught Walleye in the Orijen formula...for pete's sake, if that isn't going out of their way to make a nice product, I'm not sure what is
> 
> Overall though, I agree. Companies do whatever they need to do to make a profit. I hadn't read the ingredients in Pedigree in awhile...was just in WalMart tonight wandering around and looked at a bag. Utterly sad. I am angry at myself for ever feeding my Boys(and 1 girl) this food. Honestly, I was irresponsible owner/parent for doing this.


Oh definately there are companies better than others, I too am a fan of natura and Champion business practices.
That being said, no commercial pet food is a true, natural carnivore diet. I think it's just a matter of no kibble can be 100% meat, and therefore even the "top quality" ones are not going to be entirely species appropriate.


----------



## Jem (Dec 17, 2009)

Even if kibble was 100% meat, it would still be cooked. Cooked meat for a dog just isn't natural. Cooking denatures proteins, enzymes and nutrients which are essential for a dog's diet. I know, I know I am getting off track but when it comes stating what kibble is best, I cannot say any kibble high or low quality is appropriate nutrition for a dog because it has been cooked. 

(mods, feel free to delete or move if this is not appropriate for this section of the forum???)


----------



## DaneMama (Jun 27, 2008)

^^^ I see no need to move your post :wink:


----------



## xxshaelxx (Mar 8, 2010)

Well, when I was a kid, we had two big dogs, a border collie and black lab mix, and a border collie, black lab, husky and wolf mix. Both dogs were on very low-grade kibble. Actually, I think it was Kibbles and Bits. That was a loooooong time ago, though. Both dogs lived to be thirteen years old, and both dogs died of relatively the same thing, which I don't know what it was, because my parents never took them to the vet for it, just attributing it to old age and being mutts. Now that I think about it, though, I wonder if it could have been the food? From what I remember, both dogs never had very soft, fine, silky, smooth, shiny fur, or anything close. They were happy and healthy dogs, never really had to be taken to the vet, but thirteen was still a kind of young age for them to die. I dunno. Maybe I'm just being paranoid?

Anyways, now I feed my two Siberian Husky pups a mixture of Solid Gold and Taste of the Wild (the northern stuff). They do really well on it. Every once in a while I get a case of diarrhea or green poop, and Ryou is always REALLY gassy. But I attribute both to puppyism. I mean, when my little cat was a kitten, she had the worst gas. Then again, they're on Purina. haha. Anyways, they have really great coats, never seem lethargic, and blah, blah, blah. Ryou loves his food, but then again he loves anything that can be considered "food." Amaya, however, is very picky. She has recently taken to turning her nose up at most meals, and I have to trick her into eating by taking the food away (which she's already learned that trick), letting her brother take a bite (she's quickly learning that trick), mixing in things like wet food, chicken stock, cat food, treats, or even pure salmon in wet food form, or just taking it away and letting her eat at next mealtime.

That being said, I will soon be moving them to a raw diet. I am doing my research now, asking my questions, and draining the kibble tub. Once their out of kibble, I'll begin my long road to raw dieting, and hope that works out for them both.


----------



## lmkelly (Jun 30, 2010)

*Sojos*

I would appreciate anyone telling me their dog food experience with SOJOS. I just purchased a bag of the dehydrated dog food and would love to to know what everyone thinks!!!


----------



## RawFedDogs (Jun 16, 2008)

lmkelly said:


> I would appreciate anyone telling me their dog food experience with SOJOS. I just purchased a bag of the dehydrated dog food and would love to to know what everyone thinks!!!


It's completely worthless. They have a moneyback guarantee. Get your money back.


----------



## jdatwood (Apr 13, 2009)

lmkelly said:


> I would appreciate anyone telling me their dog food experience with SOJOS. I just purchased a bag of the dehydrated dog food and would love to to know what everyone thinks!!!


Is this the one you're referring to?
Sojos Complete Dog Food Mix

If so I'd agree with RFD. Not really a great food. There's better ways to spend your $$ on kibble

Dog Food Analysis - Reviews of kibble


----------



## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

like many people, i did no research...just fed my dogs whatever kibble i was into at a particular stage...my parents fed purina to my first dog....from there, kibble 'n bits, purina one, natural choice (nutro) and the last kibble i ever fed was wellness super five...then to home cooked for a month, then to raw.

when i fed nutro products, i had five dogs. four of them were shih tzus..other than arthritis, they were in good health..

EXCEPT their liver enzymes.

three out of the four had elevated liver enzymes. we attributed duramaxx to be the cause for one dog, but she was the only one on that drug and her levels were manageable.

the other three shih tzus had very high levels....inexplicable. they were the same breed, fed the same food, different mothers and fathers....all papered..and all that meant was we knew who their parents were.

i am convinced that nutro products with their use of menadione contributed to the early demise of my three out of four shih tzus. not one of them made it to fourteen; yet, they were in good health, as their blood work showed...except for liver enzymes...

in my ignorance, i did not make the connection between menadione and liver enzymes because i was just too brain washed and stupid to research the ingredients that went into my dogs' food.

i miss my babies...which i know is off topic, and i apologise...

i guess the point is....i fed whatever because i was ignorant..

when we were left with malia the corgi mix and nichi the last shih tzu, we switched to the wellness, plus missing link, plus salmon oil...

it wasn't until malia got giardia and was put on home cooked that i intensified my research..she is, after all, ten...and while giardia is not uncommon, it's not so common for a ten year old dog to get it after years and years of exposure...but she did....

i had been reading about dog foods for about six months prior...when we rescued the bubba pug....whose ears were gunky brown, whose eyes were goopy....whose fur was just horrid and he was on pedigree....

home cooking was fine until i finished my research....i had also added berte's immune blend and green blend and they were doing well...

i kick myself for not doing this sooner.....

it took a long term illness for me to research human nutrition, which i've been doing for years and years now....

and i now believe that we don't look closely enough at ingredients....for our dogs, for ourselves...

we don't think about how we're built and what fuels us best.....we put more time into researching a car or television than what goes into our mouths and our dogs' mouths...

i lost three dogs because i fervently believe that nutro contributed to their premature demise with their ingredients....

since i now control what goes into their mouths.....the why of what i feed is now on me..not some manufacturer who is a 'for profit' --- they are just dogs group.

i was picking meat up from a co op yesterday....and talking to the person whose source we buy from....when her guy goes to get a cow....there were unscrupulous people trying to sell him cows not suitable in our opinion for our dogs...

without going into detail, what struck me was the one liner....'they're just dogs -- so what'....

i couldn't even get angry, because while i didn't think that way, i treated my dogs that way by feeding them food that wasn't suitable.


----------



## kevin bradley (Aug 9, 2009)

magicre said:


> without going into detail, what struck me was the one liner....'they're just dogs -- so what'....
> 
> i couldn't even get angry, because while i didn't think that way, i treated my dogs that way by feeding them food that wasn't suitable.



Funny. The irony is that for many of us, our Dogs have been more loving to us than any of our friends or family members. 

"just dogs"...yeah. Sure. I'd probably give up my own life for Harry(my Border Collie/Chow rescue). Yeah, just Dogs.


----------



## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

kevin bradley said:


> Funny. The irony is that for many of us, our Dogs have been more loving to us than any of our friends or family members.
> 
> "just dogs"...yeah. Sure. I'd probably give up my own life for Harry(my Border Collie/Chow rescue). Yeah, just Dogs.


exactly.

for my honey and me, our dogs are our kids....we just fed them happy meals forever....

i will never feed kibble again nor will i ever stop researching....

my ten 1/2 year old corgi always deserved better than what she got for the first ten years of her life.....she is the perfect girl...

and my pug? well, bubba, mr. dances with food....we rescued him from a woman who bleached his anus and kept him in a garage....it's not even a year yet...and he is now three....he is becoming the perfect boy....

and deserves no less than ideal.

yeah, just dogs. 

guess that's why there are forums like this one, eh?


----------



## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

just as an aside...i don't know whether malia will live longer because of this late in life choice i've made for her...

i just want to give my dogs the best chance at 'no vets' - 'no dentals', just the joy of life.


----------



## kevin bradley (Aug 9, 2009)

magicre said:


> exactly.
> 
> for my honey and me, our dogs are our kids....we just fed them happy meals forever....
> 
> ...




Magic,

Yep, you can't go many places to find people like most of us think. 

I'll probably never have kids...I'm almost 40 with nothing on the immediate horizon so thats life. 

My Dogs are my life. They sleep in my bed....its literally their house, not mine. I too feel guilty about the Pedigree and Nutro I fed my guys in their early years. But, I'm forgiving enough to realize that I just didn't know any better. I live near Michigan State University...and one of the Vets I used to go to was actually one of the Profs at their Vet school. He told me Pedigree was a "great food." Another Vet(they are all from MSU in my area) told me, "it just doesn't matter...just pick a name brand." So, I do have some reasoning behind what I was doing. Who would know better than a VET from one of the leading Veterinary schools in the nation!!!??? Sure. 

I'm not where you are on the RAW thing(yet)...my guys get Acana/Orijen and some Evo(for now) in their cycle. Maybe some day I will get there :wink:


----------



## DaneMama (Jun 27, 2008)

Kevin- what will it take for you to get there? Maybe listing the things that you would want to know about it so you can get information back from people who may be able to help?


----------



## ziggy29 (Feb 1, 2010)

kevin bradley said:


> I too feel guilty about the Pedigree and Nutro I fed my guys in their early years.


Yeah, I know. We fed Nutro Max for four years before I started researching dog foods because of her skin allergies. I just assumed that it was one of the costlier brands in a pet store which should have the widest selection, so it should have been one of the best. I feel like such a sucker; I could have been feeding Kirkland for half the price and given her better food -- or pay only a little more and getting much better food. I failed both my dog and my wallet.

She's about seven years old now, we think, and hopefully there has been no serious or permanent damage done. She's never seemed to be sick, but you don't know what's going on inside. But hopefully, we caught this in time. She clearly looks better in terms of her skin irritations, hot spots and lack of eye boogers.


----------



## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

ziggy29 said:


> Yeah, I know. We fed Nutro Max for four years before I started researching dog foods because of her skin allergies. I just assumed that it was one of the costlier brands in a pet store which should have the widest selection, so it should have been one of the best. I feel like such a sucker; I could have been feeding Kirkland for half the price and given her better food -- or pay only a little more and getting much better food. I failed both my dog and my wallet.
> 
> She's about seven years old now, we think, and hopefully there has been no serious or permanent damage done. She's never seemed to be sick, but you don't know what's going on inside. But hopefully, we caught this in time. She clearly looks better in terms of her skin irritations, hot spots and lack of eye boogers.


when nutro products arrived on the scene, their marketing was fantastic...they were the orijen of food back then...the evo...the innova....the taste of the wild....

i still sleep at night. i don't beat myself with a hairshirt....what was....was.

what is...is a short little redhead walking out of the swamp and into the light....

one of my dogs get cooked food...she lives with my mother in law...because she likes her better than she liked us and you can't tell a dog who to love...

and my mother in law would never be able to handle the food thing...so i cook once a month....and guess what? this shih tzu, unlike the others, has at least made it to 13 1/2 ...unlike the other three....so...it's a step forward...


----------



## kevin bradley (Aug 9, 2009)

danemama08 said:


> Kevin- what will it take for you to get there? Maybe listing the things that you would want to know about it so you can get information back from people who may be able to help?


Natalie,

I'm not sure...probably losing faith in Champion would really be the tipping point. I've got the material you sent me...still need to spend some time reading through it. (I think you may have also given me some book ideas).... I KNOW you guys believe in your hearts that RAW is superior. But its hard. I hear what you guys say....and admittedly, it makes lots of sense. But then I'll stumble onto someone(and some of these people do look good on paper) saying that Dry food is superior for all the nutrients it packs....

Another would be the practicality of it...I have a tiny house. I'd have to pickup a small freezer...my kitchen is always a mess and when I think of adding a bunch of raw meat being prepared in it 2x per day I just pull back. 

I know I'm not giving you a great answer and you will have valid counter points to address my concerns. Hopefully you understand somewhat


----------



## DaneMama (Jun 27, 2008)

kevin bradley said:


> Natalie,
> 
> I'm not sure...probably losing faith in Champion would really be the tipping point. I've got the material you sent me...still need to spend some time reading through it. (I think you may have also given me some book ideas).... I KNOW you guys believe in your hearts that RAW is superior. But its hard. I hear what you guys say....and admittedly, it makes lots of sense. But then I'll stumble onto someone(and some of these people do look good on paper) saying that Dry food is superior for all the nutrients it packs....


Thanks for the response. This is the first step :wink:

I believe (in my heart) and to my core that raw works because I SEE it with my own eyes work wonders. That means more to me than any writing on any paper no matter who wrote it. 

I saw chronic ear infections disappear. 

Saw tartar on my dogs teeth get naturally scraped off. 

I saw dry, flaky and dull coat turn into healthy, beautiful, shiney coats. 

I saw large land-mine poops change into small (1/4 of what they used to be), ordorless, neat piles that turn to white powder in a day or two. 

I no longer smell that "dog" smell on them anymore, and I notice it on kibble fed dogs still. 

All of these things tell me that what my dogs eat is more appropriate and healthy for them than (what used to be the best food) EVO which is what they were on before the switch. Sometimes you just need to see the changes your dog will make for yourself to become a believer. I know that this almost makes us sound "cult like" but you won't understand until you're there. I think the majority of people that feed raw feel the same as me.



> Another would be the practicality of it...I have a tiny house. I'd have to pickup a small freezer...my kitchen is always a mess and when I think of adding a bunch of raw meat being prepared in it 2x per day I just pull back.


We live in 770 square feet with four big dogs and two cats who all eat raw. We order in bulk which comes frozen every three to four months. Thawing everything out fully and then packaging it all up is the biggest commitment as far as time and energy. Takes a few days for the 40 pound blocks of meat to thaw out fully. Then we put the meat in 12 quart containers that hold ~10-15 pounds of meat that lasts our girls 1-2 days. We get it all packaged up and then pull out containers out as we need them. They thaw out overnight and get fed the next day. We literally just open the back door and toss meat out to each dog and they take it off to their "spots" in the yard to eat. 

Organ meals are the only "chore" for us with raw feeding because our dogs (except one) won't eat them voluntarily so we have to shove it down throats. They have gotten used to this so it's actually not that hard. 

Depending on how many dogs you have will determine if you'll need a dedicated freezer. 




> I know I'm not giving you a great answer and you will have valid counter points to address my concerns. Hopefully you understand somewhat


Of course I understand. I was in your EXACT shoes a little over two years ago. I wasn't interested in raw because I thought that kibble was better. Then I realized I was wrong and I will never look back to kibble. You have to take things at your own pace because you have to do what you feel is best. Good luck and I will be here to answer all of your questions when you're ready :biggrin:


----------



## kevin bradley (Aug 9, 2009)

Thanks Natalie. 

I'm saving your post. It's one of my favorites. 

I will say...many of your points FOR Raw, I actually see with my guys on Acana-Shiny Coats, Never any ear infections, small poop that drys into this chalky stuff(no one laugh, this is actually one of the more amazing differences I've seen...the Orijen/Acana poop turns into this stuff that is so different than anything I ever saw previously), great energy-even from my 10yr old. 

All that said, I've taken to heart what you are saying. Its on my mind. Definitely.

--and I'm smart enough to realize that RAW could very well be superior even to Orijen/Acana.


----------



## DaneMama (Jun 27, 2008)

You probably wouldn't see a drastic change going from the kibble they're on now to raw. How do your dogs' teeth look? Dental health is probably the biggest perk to me in regards to raw....


----------



## PUNKem733 (Jun 12, 2009)

With my current boy, who I've had for over 13 years, he went from Iams for the first 4-5 years, to Avoderm for less than a year, to Pinnacle for about another 4-5 years, and for the last 1-2 years he's been on his rotation of Evo (soon to be no more), Horizon Legacy, and Orijen. I also use Evo canned (soon to be no more), Trippett, and Evangers. I also use Grizzly Salmon oil as a supplement.

Though soon I'm going to raw.


----------



## buddy97 (Mar 29, 2010)

i fed only raw for over 8 months of last year. to be quite honest, i did not notice one bit of difference in my dog. i did spend a little more per month on raw than i did feed rotating mostly orijen, acana, and EVO..of course, it depends on what meats you want to use and the sources you can find.

so , im just saying there is not always the dramatic differences that some get. my GSD has always been lean, very strong, and far more active than the average dog and her stamina, coat, muscle mass were equally good on raw and those kibbles. currently, i feed those kibbles, but raw still makes up 40-50% of the meals.


----------



## schtuffy (May 17, 2010)

magicre said:


> she lives with my mother in law...because she likes her better than she liked us and you can't tell a dog who to love...


That really reminds me of the dog from _Up_, and how he defected to the old man and the little kid :redface:

I remember buying a 5 lb bag of Iams Smart Puppy, thinking "I can't go wrong with Iams, and it's what the breeder feeds!" Then I saw a 14 lb bag on sale at Petsmart, so I exchanged the small bag for a big bag. A couple weeks into the bag, I started researching dog foods and, to my horror, learning about dog food ingredients. My friend introduced me to Innova Puppy, and I tried to finish the bag of Iams before switching him. As I dragged out the process, I felt more and more guilty, until I finally ended up just giving it away. He was only on it for 3-4 months of his life, but I cringe at the thought sometimes. I now avoid everything that has the remote possibility of ethoxyquin being added, and that puppy food had ethoxyquin as a listed ingredient! 

A 5 lb and a 15 lb bag of Innova later, I was in the same situation again. The P&G buyout...the soft poop...I thought about buying one last 5 lb bag because I had reservations of switching to Orijen (thanks to high protein myths circling around the internet), and ended up getting another 15 lb bag. He's finally transitioning to the bag of Orijen that's been sitting in the pantry and getting raw as well.

Although as of right now, I have barely enough freezer space to fit a single pack of meat. Plus my mom and brother may be moving in soon and staying with us until the end of the year, which is why Louis is on partial raw at the moment. Not much information on that topic, which isn't all too common. It seems like most people are in it all or nothing. No, I didn't make a change cold turkey, but I also didn't want to wait until I could feed 100% raw to feed him _any_ raw. To me, something is better than nothing...and as I clear out more space and search for meat sources, I am slowly working towards that 100%. 

Here's the freezer situation. And that's Louis saying, "Where's all my MEAT??"












danemama08 said:


> I believe (in my heart) and to my core that raw works because I SEE it with my own eyes work wonders. That means more to me than any writing on any paper no matter who wrote it.
> 
> All of these things tell me that what my dogs eat is more appropriate and healthy for them than (what used to be the best food) EVO which is what they were on before the switch. Sometimes you just need to see the changes your dog will make for yourself to become a believer. I know that this almost makes us sound "cult like" but you won't understand until you're there. I think the majority of people that feed raw feel the same as me.
> 
> Of course I understand. I was in your EXACT shoes a little over two years ago. I wasn't interested in raw because I thought that kibble was better. Then I realized I was wrong and I will never look back to kibble. You have to take things at your own pace because you have to do what you feel is best.


Danemama you are absolutely right. You can read and read, and be convinced...but until you actually sees all the changes, it's all just writing and testimonials and you will not _believe_. I'm at the 'very convinced' stage, starting to believe, and so far everything I see is great. However, I don't think I can truly _believe_ until I can feed raw 100%. I hope sometime soon I will be where you guys are and be able to say "X years ago, my dog used to eat kibble, but now...." :smile:


----------



## RCTRIPLEFRESH5 (Feb 11, 2010)

danemama08 said:


> You probably wouldn't see a drastic change going from the kibble they're on now to raw. How do your dogs' teeth look? Dental health is probably the biggest perk to me in regards to raw....


i keep hearing the best kibble is nowhere near as good as raw?


----------



## CorgiPaws (Mar 31, 2009)

RCTRIPLEFRESH5 said:


> i keep hearing the best kibble is nowhere near as good as raw?


 this isn't really the place for a kibble vs. Raw debate, so let's not start one. just because one diet is much healthier than another (be it one kibble vs. Another, or kibble vs. Raw) doesn't necessarily mean that you'll see dramatic outward changes. You can not see organ function. If they already have a shiney coat and healthy skin, then changes would only be slightly better. If they already have firm compact stools, then the difference there isn't as huge as someone going from say pedigree to raw, or top of the line kibble. this can be Compared about any diet, not just raw. Someone going from ol' roy to orijen will notice much bigger changes than someone going from totw to orijen. Someone going from nutro to raw will notice bigger changes than someone going from orijen to raw. Make sense?


----------

