# I'm a raw fighter!



## BrownieM (Aug 30, 2010)

On another forum I am part of a thread went real down REAL bad when someone started spreading fallacies and lies about a raw diet. I proved them wrong in a matter of fact way, and then they started saying some really laughable things and I guess I got rude. Anyway, I wish you guys could read this and tell me what you think. I love knowing that I have all of you on my side here. Am I allowed to link to another thread from another forum? I am guessing not....


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## CorgiPaws (Mar 31, 2009)

Yup. Link away!
DFC is not threatened by the presence of other forums. :tongue:


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## BrownieM (Aug 30, 2010)

Raw feeding question - Poodle Forum - Standard Poodle, Toy Poodle, Miniature Poodle Forum ALL Poodle owners too!

After post #7 is where things go down.


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## Liz (Sep 27, 2010)

That thread got a little cranky but compared to other forums except for this one remained very tame. Maybe a poodle thing - you all are so civilized (LOL) You made many valid points the only other thing you might have done is ignore the two you knew were just there to disagree and find fault. They will always be there. Don't cast your pearls, etc. You had a very good discussion though and your points and rebuttals were well thought out. Sometimes people just want to take their toys and go home when they are out smarted.


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## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

Do horses really pick up small animals and eat them as they graze?

Oh I KNOW this is wrong - hummingbirds do NOT lvie off of plant derived foods. A large part of their diet is protein - as in softshelled flying insects.


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## BrownieM (Aug 30, 2010)

xellil said:


> Do horses really pick up small animals and eat them as they graze?
> 
> Oh I KNOW this is wrong - hummingbirds do NOT lvie off of plant derived foods. A large part of their diet is protein - as in softshelled flying insects.


You just made my day! Ha ha!


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## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

It is nice that you took the time to post so much information - even if some people will argue with you, there are likely to be some who may not even post in that thread who will look into it further. 

And i agree - you are all so polite!


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## Caty M (Aug 13, 2010)

Yay! Love the thread! I am in one as well.

Seborrhea and Protein?- Dog Nutrition

Apparently it's impossible for dogs to eat pork ribs.


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## BrownieM (Aug 30, 2010)

Caty M said:


> Yay! Love the thread! I am in one as well.
> 
> Seborrhea and Protein?- Dog Nutrition
> 
> Apparently it's impossible for dogs to eat pork ribs.


Funny, because that is what mine had for breakfast today! :wink:


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## Caty M (Aug 13, 2010)

My 6lb IG can eat pork ribs but apparently their pit bulls can't. It's an interesting thread, though.


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## Scarlett_O' (May 19, 2011)

xellil said:


> Do horses really pick up small animals and eat them as they graze?


I HIGHLY HIGHLY doubt it!! I have picked up TONS of manure, including that which I needed a shovel and rake to gather and NEVER even once found any kind of animal life in it other the mice having made their nest in old piles!! :wink:


But Ive got to laugh...I thought the same thing that Liz did, ya'll or so nice and sophisticated about the argument!!LOL :laugh:

WOW, the more that the thread went on the less and less true information was spread about raw other then by you!LOL Rather sad!!


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## RCTRIPLEFRESH5 (Feb 11, 2010)

nice work for fighting for raw. i honestly never have the balls to stand up for myself for a lot of things. The woman at the rescue told me that nutro and totw were the same grade..and she wasnt being rude, but i just nodded and said alright.
heck even GRAIN FREE nutro doesnt come close to sierra mountain tots


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## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

RCTRIPLEFRESH5 said:


> nice work for fighting for raw. i honestly never have the balls to stand up for myself for a lot of things. The woman at the rescue told me that nutro and totw were the same grade..and she wasnt being rude, but i just nodded and said alright.
> heck even GRAIN FREE nutro doesnt come close to sierra mountain tots


Don't feel bad - when the ER vet told me to buy his Science Diet, and when i told him I didn't want to feed corn to my dogs, and he told me corn was good for dogs, I didn't say anything. It just didn't seem worth it. In fact, i even bought a bag of the stuff and then fed it to the squirrels. They like corn.


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## minnieme (Jul 6, 2011)

xellil said:


> In fact, i even bought a bag of the stuff and then fed it to the squirrels. They like corn.



LOL. My aunt is a vet and peddles Science Diet like there's no tomorrow. Love her dearly.....but I know who was behind her nutrition education in vet school!


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## tem_sat (Jun 20, 2010)

Scarlett_O' said:


> I HIGHLY HIGHLY doubt it!! I have picked up TONS of manure, including that which I needed a shovel and rake to gather and NEVER even once found any kind of animal life in it other the mice having made their nest in old piles!! :wink:
> 
> 
> But Ive got to laugh...I thought the same thing that Liz did, ya'll or so nice and sophisticated about the argument!!LOL :laugh:
> ...


I totally couldn't believe the line about horses picking up "small animals as they graze." I have had plenty of dressage and trail riding horses and never...would I believe anything such as that. However, I did have one who loved to drink RC Cola straight from the can. Yes, he would position his mouth over the top of the can, pick it up, hold his head back, and down it!


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## BrownieM (Aug 30, 2010)

Do you know what is funny? I NEVER even noticed that line. Was that said in the thread that I linked? It is such an absurd statement that I must have just crossed right over it.


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## RawFedDogs (Jun 16, 2008)

Hehe, I really LOVE discussions like that. I have only read the first 3 pages but I have some suggestions. To the person insisting on studies ... ask her why she doesn't ask for studies that prove kibble is even close to as nutritous as PMR. PMR has been around for a million years and has withstood the test of time but kibble for only about 60 years or so but no one seems to want kibble companies to prove how nutritious or appropriate for dogs to eat. Why not? Kibble is actually the FAD diet, PMR is the old "proven by time" stand by.

I think its the same person who works with lukemia patients and the doctors she works with agree that dogs carry bacteria that is dangerous to these people. Her patients are not allowed to be around pets for 3 to 6 months after treatment. Ask her if she has any first hand knowledge of actual patients who were made sick by dogs. As her for studies that prove being around dogs is harmful to immunocompromised patients. I suspect the doctors just "KNOW" this without any basis of proof.

As for the person who worries bout bacteria in the fur of raw fed dogs. Of course if they roll around on their meal before they eat it they MIGHT have bacteria on their fur but since they don't, they don't. 

You've done good, Grasshopper. You learn well. :biggrin: (Most of y'all are probably too young to understand that.) :smile:


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## Caty M (Aug 13, 2010)

Kung fuuuu!... I think. I might be 22 but I didn't grow up in a bubble. :wink:


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

you could steer her to the white paper by orijen. it comes as close to a study as i've seen. it was written in 1998 and published by a kibble company. a fine one at that.

personally, brownie...i think you were eloquent....and you presented your case to some who heard and some who choose to continue to believe what they believe....who knows? what you said may fall on fertile lurker ground....

brownie....raw fed people are rough around the edges LOL?



> Also, if you don't like the attitude of the Raw Meaty Bones and Prey Model Raw people, and yes, they can be a little rough around the edges, that, again, is a problem with the humans, not an inadequacy of the diet. If you find someone who is promoting a product, I personally would run far away.


i read the entire thread, but that line was hilarious.....you were really getting revved up, weren't you? 

bill....some of us are old enough to remember 'grasshopper'....


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## BrownieM (Aug 30, 2010)

magicre said:


> you could steer her to the white paper by orijen. it comes as close to a study as i've seen. it was written in 1998 and published by a kibble company. a fine one at that.
> 
> brownie....raw fed people are rough around the edges LOL?


Maybe? Sometimes? Passionate is what we are. :wink: I was just trying to appease her LOL.


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

BrownieM said:


> Maybe? Sometimes? Passionate is what we are. :wink: I was just trying to appease her LOL.


i just cracked up when i read it. i'm going to change my sig to 'proud to be a diamond in the rough - raw feeder'.


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## DoglovingSenior (Jun 26, 2011)

Just reading that made me tired! You are to be congratulated Great rebuttals. However, My Working Dog Rottweiler & my Terrier APBT were insulted that anyone would even think that they lived outside. <LMBO> These too will X their legs rather than go out if it is sprinkling, if it is too cold or if it is (GA) too hot-I tell them that they wouldn't survive a day on the streets. Guess that I've never really been around poodle people. The voices that I was assigning to some of them made ME laugh. Keep up your excellent work & keep those paws clean.


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## SilverBeat (Jan 16, 2011)

I would not have the patience for that. That's all I can say. Well done.


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## chowder (Sep 7, 2008)

This was a great read on a Sunday morning! Poodle people are a whole different breed (haha). They are so polite to each other. Who knew that dogs needed snood's and bracelets just to eat breakfast! I need to get Rocky a new wardrobe. 

And I never missed an episode of Kung Fu, grasshopper!


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## bumblegoat (May 12, 2010)

The part about horses eating small animals reminded me of this video: Cow eats a baby chicken!! - YouTube

Obviously not a horse, but it sure isn't impossible that herbivores eat the occasional animal...


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## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

I'm sure it could happen - but by the sentence she posted, I have this vision of horses accidentally gobbling down small mice as they obliviously run between their teeth as they graze.


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## BrownieM (Aug 30, 2010)

Oh, trust me, poodle people get pretty intense when breeding issues come up. The birds were chirping in this thread.


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## catahoulamom (Sep 23, 2010)

Good job, Brownie! Oh, and not to go OT - but what did you ever decide to feed Tiger? Are you doing PMR while he's staying with you, and premade raw or Acana at the handler's? I think I saw a video of him munchin' down on some RMB's you posted a bit ago...


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## BrownieM (Aug 30, 2010)

Julie said:


> Good job, Brownie! Oh, and not to go OT - but what did you ever decide to feed Tiger? Are you doing PMR while he's staying with you, and premade raw or Acana at the handler's? I think I saw a video of him munchin' down on some RMB's you posted a bit ago...


Well, he is sort of eating a conglomeration of things. He eats raw meaty bones (chicken backs, turkey necks, ribs), premade raw, Orijen,The Honest Kitchen, raw tripe, canned tripe, healthy table scraps, and I usually throw a little bit of the other poodles' boneless raw in with whatever he is eating. Honestly, part of my goal is for him to have a very adaptable, adjustable digestive system. Iwant him to be used to a varied diet. Even more than I believe raw is ideal, I also really don't believe in feeding the same thing day after day after day. I see too many kibble fed dogs that cannot eat anything different than what they are used to. My goal with Tiger is, even though I have him on some processed food right now, to have as much adaptability as possible.

He goes to the handler's on Wednesday and will be there until September. I am sending him off with Orijen and Primal Raw. I'll have her do about 1 1/2 cup Orijen for breakfast and 1-2 primal patties for dinner.


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## catahoulamom (Sep 23, 2010)

BrownieM said:


> Well, he is sort of eating a conglomeration of things. He eats raw meaty bones (chicken backs, turkey necks, ribs), premade raw, Orijen,The Honest Kitchen, raw tripe, canned tripe, healthy table scraps, and I usually throw a little bit of the other poodles' boneless raw in with whatever he is eating. Honestly, part of my goal is for him to have a very adaptable, adjustable digestive system. Iwant him to be used to a varied diet. Even more than I believe raw is ideal, I also really don't believe in feeding the same thing day after day after day. I see too many kibble fed dogs that cannot eat anything different than what they are used to. My goal with Tiger is, even though I have him on some processed food right now, to have as much adaptability as possible.
> 
> He goes to the handler's on Wednesday and will be there until September. I am sending him off with Orijen and Primal Raw. I'll have her do about 1 1/2 cup Orijen for breakfast and 1-2 primal patties for dinner.


Sounds like you've got it all worked out! Glad you found a solution - and yes, I agree, just as it is important to rotate kibble fed dog's food so they don't get too sensitive, I believe it is important to give our (or at least my) raw fed dogs a variety as well (not just in their diet, but treats too) so they won't have cannon butt if they get a crappy Milk Bone from the vet, or a neighbor. He handles the combination of raw and kibble well? I'm assuming so - it would be horrible to have to clean the squirts off his white behind. :tape:

I'm sure it will be hard to let him go, but from what you've said before he's going to the best of the best handlers, so I'm sure that will give you some peace of mind. Here's to Tiger finishing up his title soon so he can come back to Mommy & Henry & Millie!!!


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## BrownieM (Aug 30, 2010)

Julie said:


> Sounds like you've got it all worked out! Glad you found a solution - and yes, I agree, just as it is important to rotate kibble fed dog's food so they don't get too sensitive, I believe it is important to give our (or at least my) raw fed dogs a variety as well (not just in their diet, but treats too) so they won't have cannon butt if they get a crappy Milk Bone from the vet, or a neighbor. He handles the combination of raw and kibble well? I'm assuming so - it would be horrible to have to clean the squirts off his white behind. :tape:
> 
> I'm sure it will be hard to let him go, but from what you've said before he's going to the best of the best handlers, so I'm sure that will give you some peace of mind. Here's to Tiger finishing up his title soon so he can come back to Mommy & Henry & Millie!!!


Thanks! Yes, he handles the combination very well. He hasn't had a loose stool since I have owned him! No gas or anything either. I try to keep kibble at only a relatively small portion of his diet. Today it was only half of his breakfast and raw will be his dinner. 

IT will be so hard to leave him. :/ But, the good news is that I will see him next weekend at a dog show. And, he won't be gone for as long as I thought, only about 3-4 weeks this particular time. Also, a friend of mine recently got her dog back from this handler. She said he was, for a second, hesitant to leave the handler and come home. This made her feel so good that the handler and her staff were taking such good care of him.


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## catahoulamom (Sep 23, 2010)

BrownieM said:


> Thanks! Yes, he handles the combination very well. He hasn't had a loose stool since I have owned him! No gas or anything either. I try to keep kibble at only a relatively small portion of his diet. Today it was only half of his breakfast and raw will be his dinner.
> 
> IT will be so hard to leave him. :/ But, the good news is that I will see him next weekend at a dog show. And, he won't be gone for as long as I thought, only about 3-4 weeks this particular time. Also, a friend of mine recently got her dog back from this handler. She said he was, for a second, hesitant to leave the handler and come home. This made her feel so good that the handler and her staff were taking such good care of him.


That's great to hear... my dogs can handle treats but once Finny got into some kibble at work and it was a MESS until he got it all out of his system. 

Oooh, can you take pictures at the dog show? (I've never been to one- not sure if it's allowed?) I would LOVE to see him in the ring!!! He is just so handsome. You need to add him to your sig, btw! 

That's great that they will take great care, and feed him the Primal patties... it'll be like sleep-away camp!


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## BrownieM (Aug 30, 2010)

Julie said:


> That's great to hear... my dogs can handle treats but once Finny got into some kibble at work and it was a MESS until he got it all out of his system.
> 
> Oooh, can you take pictures at the dog show? (I've never been to one- not sure if it's allowed?) I would LOVE to see him in the ring!!! He is just so handsome. You need to add him to your sig, btw!
> 
> That's great that they will take great care, and feed him the Primal patties... it'll be like sleep-away camp!


Yep, they are great. They will even drive to a dog boutique near them to get more of his Primal should he run out while he is there (as long as I set everything up/pay/etc.) 

I can definitely take photos at the show! I always feel awkward when I take photos of other people's dogs, but he's mine so I won't even feel like I need to ask for permission!  I fully intend to take photos and even get a video of him moving.


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## RCTRIPLEFRESH5 (Feb 11, 2010)

RCTRIPLEFRESH5 said:


> nice work for fighting for raw. i honestly never have the balls to stand up for myself for a lot of things. The woman at the rescue told me that nutro and totw were the same grade..and she wasnt being rude, but i just nodded and said alright.
> heck even GRAIN FREE nutro doesnt come close to sierra mountain tots


not to mention the groomer at my dad's friends puppy store. she keeps telling me that pure vita dog food is the best dog food, because her hollistic vet nutritionist loves it. i mean it looks ok, but not the best.
Duck and Oatmeal - Superior Nutrition for Dogs PureVita - Pure and Natural Holistic Pet Food

and i was too anxious to say my beliefs so i said...''hey have you ever heard of orijen ive heard it was good what do u think?''//lie ive never heard of it before

good foods arent getting recognized cause of wimps lie me


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

chowder said:


> This was a great read on a Sunday morning! Poodle people are a whole different breed (haha). They are so polite to each other. Who knew that dogs needed snood's and bracelets just to eat breakfast! I need to get Rocky a new wardrobe.
> 
> And I never missed an episode of Kung Fu, grasshopper!


the visual i got was hilarious...but i can totally understand it....these dogs have 'dos.....ya know?

i can't even imagine what it takes for the upkeep of those cuts....such an elegant breed, though...


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## VaderAider (Jul 31, 2011)

That zyrcona person thought dogs had detached jaws allowing for up down and side to side chewing capabilities, honestly I wouldn't have entertained him from that point on, not to mention that cooked food is better than raw abundant chelates from organs? Wth, troll, I would be the better man and get out of that thread, I'm a botanist of sorts and we know the quality derived from organic sources must be varied to get all required nutrients. 

Brownie I like u already, it's funny, you could never balance a dry dog food for the whole genome, however with raw and variation I say um yeah u can. Well played!


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## BrownieM (Aug 30, 2010)

VaderAider said:


> That zyrcona person thought dogs had detached jaws allowing for up down and side to side chewing capabilities, honestly I wouldn't have entertained him from that point on, not to mention that cooked food is better than raw abundant chelates from organs? Wth, troll, I would be the better man and get out of that thread, I'm a botanist of sorts and we know the quality derived from organic sources must be varied to get all required nutrients.
> 
> Brownie I like u already, it's funny, you could never balance a dry dog food for the whole genome, however with raw and variation I say um yeah u can. Well played!


You're right, I should be the bigger one, but I just CAN'T help myself! LOL. I am going to make a fool of myself soon, though.


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

BrownieM said:


> You're right, I should be the bigger one, but I just CAN'T help myself! LOL. I am going to make a fool of myself soon, though.


gotta know when to fold 'em.....


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## Quossum (Jul 6, 2011)

You were pretty epic in that thread, ChocolateMillie. It did get a little catty for a moment or two there, not so bad by PF standards, but still, I could sense your frustration.

I used to be quite the raw proselytizer, but at some point I kind of gave up. I'll still promote raw where I can, and answer questions for the truly curious, but I'm so casual about it now and have been doing it for so long that all the protests just seem kind of silly. And then, one can always tell when it's one of those people who simply _will not change their minds no matter what._ The best you can do is what you did: provide cogent rebuttals for the poor arguments, and then let it go and let people draw their own conclusions.

Keep fighting the good fight!

--Q


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## BrownieM (Aug 30, 2010)

I am still trying to figure out what that person is referring to when they state that child rearing is heavily regulated. Am I missing something substantial?


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## Scarlett_O' (May 19, 2011)

BrownieM said:


> I am still trying to figure out what that person is referring to when they state that child rearing is heavily regulated. Am I missing something substantial?


Im trying to understand that as well! Sounds like a ton of BS to me!!


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## PDXdogmom (Jun 30, 2010)

I'm not a raw feeder (doing half kibble and half home-cooked at the moment), but I've found the raw posts on this forum interesting. So, I read the entire thread you linked to on the poodle forum.

From a purely debate perspective, I honestly think you had the upper hand until you inserted what some might term a personal attack in your post #47. That's when you said that the other poster lacked common sense and you really found it hard to take her seriously. From there, the whole thread went downhill with some mild mudslinging; and your well-stated previous points probably got lost. I could tell how frustrating it was for you; but as magicre said: go_tta know when to fold 'em....._


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## Scarlett_O' (May 19, 2011)

When you posted this I was just on my phone so not able to say anything....but....



RawFedDogs said:


> Of course if they roll around on their meal before they eat it they MIGHT have bacteria on their fur but since they don't, they don't. *Oh..if only Rhett knew this rule!:tongue1: I swear some times I have a black and pink dog not a black and white dog!!LOL :laugh:*
> 
> You've done good, Grasshopper. You learn well. :biggrin: (Most of y'all are probably too young to understand that.) :smile:


Hey...Im only 23(tomorrow) and I TOTALLY understand that!:tongue1: :biggrin:


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## BrownieM (Aug 30, 2010)

PDXdogmom said:


> I'm not a raw feeder (doing half kibble and half home-cooked at the moment), but I've found the raw posts on this forum interesting. So, I read the entire thread you linked to on the poodle forum.
> 
> From a purely debate perspective, I honestly think you had the upper hand until you inserted what some might term a personal attack in your post #47. That's when you said that the other poster lacked common sense and you really found it hard to take her seriously. From there, the whole thread went downhill with some mild mudslinging; and your well-stated previous points probably got lost. I could tell how frustrating it was for you; but as magicre said: go_tta know when to fold 'em....._


Gotta work on my debate skills! To be honest, until that post you speak of, I was trying very hard to hold my composure and maintain credibility. Unfortunately, I found a few things so hilarious, namely bears and dogs sharing identical dental structure and social services checking up on children's nutrition (which I now realize must have been a cultural difference), I just gave up and let myself cave in. Probably should have kept biting my tongue, but, OH WELL! 

Grr.. Gotta work on my debate skills


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## KittyKat (Feb 11, 2011)

I came across this statement from a whippet breeder in the 50's: "My dogs eat natural foods and meat. Fresh meat is very important. All these prepared dog foods have too many preservatives in them. I don’t want my dogs eating that." - and this is from the 50's! 

If she knew then that the pre-packaged foods were full of junk... why are we still banging our heads over it today?


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## 3Musketeers (Nov 4, 2010)

Read the threads on those forums...

Please excuse me while I go headdesk myself to death.


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

BrownieM said:


> Gotta work on my debate skills! To be honest, until that post you speak of, I was trying very hard to hold my composure and maintain credibility. Unfortunately, I found a few things so hilarious, namely bears and dogs sharing identical dental structure and social services checking up on children's nutrition (which I now realize must have been a cultural difference), I just gave up and let myself cave in. Probably should have kept biting my tongue, but, OH WELL!
> 
> Grr.. Gotta work on my debate skills


i thought you held up pretty well.....and it had ceased to be a debate.....hard to keep debating when the rules of debate are swirling down the toilet.


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## Caty M (Aug 13, 2010)

I understand why the personal attacks came on though.. when you are saying stuff that is OBVIOUSLY COMMON SENSE and they are ignoring half of what you are saying and basically just being like YOU ARE WRONG!!!!! It gets very frustrating. Especially coming from someone who has never fed raw. _It's always from the people who have never tried it and are too close minded to think that maybe, just maybe, there is a better way to feed._


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## monkeys23 (Dec 8, 2010)

I thought you did well! It was pretty tame compared to some raw debates I've seen on another forum I'm on though, especially one forum there are some real prize winners on. And this passive aggressive vet tech posting articles about "alternative diets", lol.


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## gorge77 (May 13, 2011)

monkeys23 said:


> I thought you did well! It was pretty tame compared to some raw debates I've seen on another forum I'm on though, especially one forum there are some real prize winners on. And this passive aggressive vet tech posting articles about "alternative diets", lol.


i agree with you on that. it is very mild, well, compared to what i have read in local forums (in singapore). there were loads of name calling, sarcasms and some guy calling us raw feeders "full of shit". some got so bad to the point where the mod had to step in to mediate. :heh: 

i had to admit i'm guilty of some of these. lol


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