# Vaccinations



## lily (May 16, 2011)

Betsy has her first vacs tommoroww and I've got a bit paranoid regarding vacs in general,is there anything I should give her after to safeguard her immune system,after her initial ones I will not be giving her boosters yearly,any advice please,karen


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

well, you could say no to vaccinations...

and maybe liz can come in here to talk about what to give a dog.....

first thing that comes to mind is to wait until she transitions to your home and to raw feeding.....the schedule is the vet's schedule, not the dog's .....when it should be on your time not the vet.

i would wait.....and transition the lovely betsy to raw feeding and to your home....and then think about vaccinating...


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## Liz (Sep 27, 2010)

I would cancel vacciantions especially for such a tiny dog. I would reschedule for 12 weeks. I will PM you what to give her before and after a distemper/parvo shot. Honestly though you would be better off just giving the rabies if it is required by law in your area. The more vaccines the more damage. But if you must please wait until at least 12 weeks, use a lower doseage, and get the homeopathic I will PM you about when I get home tonight. The very worst time to give vaccines other than when health is compromised is when and animal is stressed. She has had just too many new things and you really want her to have more adjustment time to your home, family, her schedule and her food. it is too much to add vaccines also. IMHO Please wait a few more weeks. Also if you wait til 12 weeks you could probably titre a few weeks later and find her immunity is just fine.


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## bullyBug (May 31, 2012)

How old is she? Don't give her more than one vaccine per visit and make sure the vet is giving half doses (.5 instead of 1 mL). Hang around the waiting room for a while after and watch for any adverse reaction. At my work, we give benadryl and sometimes a dex injection before vaccinating puppies under ~6lbs. You should have childrens benadryl on hand. Don't stress her out for at least 48hrs post vax. (No grooming, new places, etc.)


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## lily (May 16, 2011)

I'm going away to visit my son at the end of august and taking betsy with me ,if I withhold the vacs will that mean that she will have to stay in the house?we are told not to walk a pup until after vacs,,karen


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## Liz (Sep 27, 2010)

Hi Karen

With my unvaccinated babies I expose them slowly so they can build their own immune system. I never take a puppy to a dog park but we do start by visiting friends with healthy dogs, then walk the neighborhood, then visit other homes with healthy dogs, and then start taking them places that are low on the dog populations scale. How old is the pup now. I am figuring if she is 8 weeks now and you really want to vaccinate you can do so towards the middle or end of July and then go on vacation.


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## lily (May 16, 2011)

Liz said:


> Hi Karen
> 
> With my unvaccinated babies I expose them slowly so they can build their own immune system. I never take a puppy to a dog park but we do start by visiting friends with healthy dogs, then walk the neighborhood, then visit other homes with healthy dogs, and then start taking them places that are low on the dog populations scale. How old is the pup now. I am figuring if she is 8 weeks now and you really want to vaccinate you can do so towards the middle or end of July and then go on vacation.


Hi Liz,she is almost 12 weeks,she hasn't had any vacs as yet,due to losing Annie with allergies I'm frightened of damaging betsys immune system ,the vet said Annie was not vacs damage and that her allergy problem was down to poor breeding,I'm seeing the vet today for a health check for betsy ,he will ask about vacs,I do not want to risk a repeat of allergies due to vacs damage ,karen


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## Liz (Sep 27, 2010)

Karen,

I cannot tell you what to do. I will tell you that I have not vaccinated any of my dogs in the last 9 years. The last time I dealt with Parvo was with vaccinated dogs. I have had quite a few unvaccinated litters and everyone has done marvelously. My two shelties at home have not had any vaccines and neither have my two collies that I kept. They go everywhere with me and are never ill. My one collie pup that I placed is vaccinated and mysteriously developed motion sickness and sound senstivities - she did not have these issues before vaccines one of my others got heart worm treatment and loss control of her legs - she would just collapse while walking or playing - since not giving any more heart worm she has been perfectly fine. I also have a five year old collie and a 7 year old collie who have never been vaccinated and they have both been shown and go camping with us and on errands etc. I will not vaccinate. I will handle parvo if it comes up or kennel cough or whatever - these are all curable and if my dogs run into a rabid bat they are going to be quarantined whether they are vaccinated or not so I will take that slim chance. My motto here is be prepared for the worst and expect the best. I have healthy happy dogs who are super healthy with no allergies, sensitivities, etc. JMHO


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## lily (May 16, 2011)

Liz said:


> Karen,
> 
> I cannot tell you what to do. I will tell you that I have not vaccinated any of my dogs in the last 9 years. The last time I dealt with Parvo was with vaccinated dogs. I have had quite a few unvaccinated litters and everyone has done marvelously. My two shelties at home have not had any vaccines and neither have my two collies that I kept. They go everywhere with me and are never ill. My one collie pup that I placed is vaccinated and mysteriously developed motion sickness and sound senstivities - she did not have these issues before vaccines one of my others got heart worm treatment and loss control of her legs - she would just collapse while walking or playing - since not giving any more heart worm she has been perfectly fine. I also have a five year old collie and a 7 year old collie who have never been vaccinated and they have both been shown and go camping with us and on errands etc. I will not vaccinate. I will handle parvo if it comes up or kennel cough or whatever - these are all curable and if my dogs run into a rabid bat they are going to be quarantined whether they are vaccinated or not so I will take that slim chance. My motto here is be prepared for the worst and expect the best. I have healthy happy dogs who are super healthy with no allergies, sensitivities, etc. JMHO


Thanks Liz,it's very difficult to make a decision,I will talk to my vet ,I feel I'm not experienced enough to handle a dog with parvovirus and the other diseases a dog may get ,it's a decision only can make ,my vet is very good ,he does not push treatments on me and agrees with raw feeding so he has a bit of common sense!,I will let you know how I go on today,karen


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## creek817 (Feb 18, 2012)

I *think* (Liz or someone PLEASE correct me if I'm wrong!) that you can give Bovine Colostrum to boost the immune system. There are probably other things you can give as well. In addition, of course, to the wonderful raw diet she will be getting =) Good luck.


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

karen, if possible, wait a bit.....i know she is almost twelve weeks, but if you could build up her immune system with what liz told you to get and wait for her to adjust to your home and raw.....if you still feel the need to vaccinate, i would ask the vet to vaccinate very slowly.....

and that way, you've had a chance to build up her system to ready her for the shots.

would that work for you? a little delay?


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## lily (May 16, 2011)

magicre said:


> karen, if possible, wait a bit.....i know she is almost twelve weeks, but if you could build up her immune system with what liz told you to get and wait for her to adjust to your home and raw.....if you still feel the need to vaccinate, i would ask the vet to vaccinate very slowly.....
> 
> and that way, you've had a chance to build up her system to ready her for the shots.
> 
> would that work for you? a little delay?


Well magicre we went to the vets ,he said that she is a picture of health and has put half a pound on in a week ,we discussed her vacs and as there is parvovirus here at the moment and we get foxes wandering the streets I decided to vaccinate,I insisted on only half the dose which he did,wether I'm right or wrong I don't know,I know I haven't the knowledge or experience to nurse a sick pup with parvovirus if she was to get it,I hope I have done the right thing,he said that Annie's allergies were from bad breeding,now wether he has seen any of her litter mates with the same issues I don't know,the breeder uses the same vets as I do ,anyway he's pleased I'm raw feeding her ,so only time will tell if I made a wise decision,but I did tell him she will not be having boosters ,he said he gathered that!,karen


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

lily said:


> Well magicre we went to the vets ,he said that she is a picture of health and has put half a pound on in a week ,we discussed her vacs and as there is parvovirus here at the moment and we get foxes wandering the streets I decided to vaccinate,I insisted on only half the dose which he did,wether I'm right or wrong I don't know,I know I haven't the knowledge or experience to nurse a sick pup with parvovirus if she was to get it,I hope I have done the right thing,he said that Annie's allergies were from bad breeding,now wether he has seen any of her litter mates with the same issues I don't know,the breeder uses the same vets as I do ,anyway he's pleased I'm raw feeding her ,so only time will tell if I made a wise decision,but I did tell him she will not be having boosters ,he said he gathered that!,karen


karen, we all have to do that which helps us sleep at night.

i'm glad you insisted on half dose.....she's such a wee pup.....and i think feeding her raw certainly will be of benefit to her.

we make our decisions after careful consideration and the weighing of the facts...you've made yours and as long as you're okay with it, that is all that matters.


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## lily (May 16, 2011)

magicre said:


> karen, we all have to do that which helps us sleep at night.
> 
> i'm glad you insisted on half dose.....she's such a wee pup.....and i think feeding her raw certainly will be of benefit to her.
> 
> we make our decisions after careful consideration and the weighing of the facts...you've made yours and as long as you're okay with it, that is all that matters.


Thanks for that magicre ,I really have to stop worrying about her I think I'm getting a bit paranoid ,which I have never been in my life,I will have to be careful as if I carry on I will not enjoy her,oh the joys of owning a pet,I had 5 kids 3 with special needs and did not worry like I do now,perhaps I'm just getting old!.
Karen


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

lily said:


> Thanks for that magicre ,I really have to stop worrying about her I think I'm getting a bit paranoid ,which I have never been in my life,I will have to be careful as if I carry on I will not enjoy her,oh the joys of owning a pet,I had 5 kids 3 with special needs and did not worry like I do now,perhaps I'm just getting old!.
> Karen



you just went through a horrific experience. it's okay to be a little batty at the moment. you'll calm down when betsy shows you what she's made of and then you'll enjoy her.


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## lily (May 16, 2011)

I must be going soft,I slept on the couch last night and have booked the day off work today ,she had a few loose poops last night ,this morning she ate breakfast and her poop is a little harder,she's playing hard this morning ,killing one of my granddaughters teddies!,the vet said she's very healthy so she should be ok,I never ever considered the damage vacs can do until Annie ,it's quite a frightening thing to give a pup it's vacs,I'm glad I told him only half the dose as even that whacked her out ,karen


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## Chocx2 (Nov 16, 2009)

Liz

Kinda off topic, but still vaccine related

I have a female that I intend on breeding once, I have several friends that want one of her pups. Just finished getting all her clearances which I hated doing because they had to knock her out for xrays for pin hip ect. Anyway how do you vaccinate? Would you wait and let the owner vaccinate or do you give them holistic stuff? They will be in my home with limited exposure to anyone or thing for the first couple of weeks and I would just assume not take them to the vets office too where there is stuff they would catch. My vet think I'm crazy that pups are tougher than I think, but I think they should be protected for a bit.


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## Chocx2 (Nov 16, 2009)

Also

I have been told to booster her before I breed her she doesn't need shots for a couple of years and I don't intend on vaccinating her again I am titering all my dogs now.


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## lily (May 16, 2011)

Chocx2 said:


> Also
> 
> I have been told to booster her before I breed her she doesn't need shots for a couple of years and I don't intend on vaccinating her again I am titering all my dogs now.


I hate giving vaccines but as there is parvovirus about and like I said I'm not experienced enough to deal with it,unless of course Liz was my neighbour lol,I won't be giving boosters at all ,if I were to breed betsy then personally I would not vaccinate the pups ,I would leave that decision to the new owners,I would hate the idea of a pup starting with allergies when it gets older,though the vet poo pood the idea of allergies through vacs damage but then again they charge a lot for them so are going to push them,it's a very difficult decision unless you have years of experience breeding dogs,the titre test here in the uk is not very good as they do not test for all the vacs so we could not get a full test,doesn't make sense really,karen


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

lily said:


> I hate giving vaccines but as there is parvovirus about and like I said I'm not experienced enough to deal with it,unless of course Liz was my neighbour lol,I won't be giving boosters at all ,if I were to breed betsy then personally I would not vaccinate the pups ,I would leave that decision to the new owners,I would hate the idea of a pup starting with allergies when it gets older,though the vet poo pood the idea of allergies through vacs damage but then again they charge a lot for them so are going to push them,it's a very difficult decision unless you have years of experience breeding dogs,the titre test here in the uk is not very good as they do not test for all the vacs so we could not get a full test,doesn't make sense really,karen


when i am ready for one of liz' shelties.....she will be on speed dial, as i've never not vaccinated. so i know how you feel. 

but.

after researching and talking to liz and other breeders who are natural rearing breeders, i am coming around to the notion that it's just not in my dogs' best interests to vaccinate.

i know it's a very hot topic amongst just about everyone and it was for me, too...Liz already knows she will be on speed dial during the first twenty years of my sheltie's life. LOL

i am now convinced, albeit skittish, that vaccines can be a cause for things that go bump in the night....and so i will not vaccinate the next dog i get.

you can be sure, however, the dog that i do not vaccinate will be bred for health, temperament and structure, in that order. 

for now, i'm content knowing that bubba got his first shots at age two and will get no more....and malia who is thirteen, has not been vaccinated in six years and will not get anymore.

we go to the park....we are around other dogs...not as often as some, but still..

and, the health issue for bubba was he got warts. that is a virus.....his immune system is rock solid; but even the most solid immune system will have its occasional dips.


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## Liz (Sep 27, 2010)

Chocx2, I do not vaccinate. My collie girls have never had a vaccine. My poor male was my last vaccinated dog and he only got one set of puppy shots. My shelties are also unvaccinated. I am thrilled with my collies as we are going on our third generation of non vaccinated collies and I now how first generation totally raw fed, non vaccinated collies and shelties. I couldn't ask for healthier dogs. I do not see a reason to vaccinate mom - she by now has natural immunities and vaccinating her before breeding is kind of weird as vaccines will pretty well shut her immune system down. She will be fighting the vaccine and not any enviornmental diseases/viruses. My pups are exposed to the outside world like little wolves would be. They play with my pack, they play in the yard, then we start walking the neighborhood and then take them out to non doggy places for socialization. We take them all to church to meet our church kids and they all are bus mascots for a time as our church has four busses we pick up kids in. My pups by 12 weeks are very socialized and can go pretty much anywhere. I never take my dogs to the vet or dog parks as they are harbingers of disease and unmannered dogs.  I place most of my pups in raw feeding and non vacc homes and am getting more stringent about this but if the new owners choose I do give them an acceptable protocol which is basically in my eyes just the lesser evil. LOL  I do not and will not vaccinate my animals and vaccinated in a way other than the agreed upon protocol does void my contract. Tough I know but I won't be held responsible if they choose to continuously poison my pups. JMHO. This is my soap box so I am trying to control myself. LOL


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## Liz (Sep 27, 2010)

Re, you would be at the top of my list. All my puppy people know they can bring their dog back to me for care no matter what or how old.


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## bullyBug (May 31, 2012)

Liz, have you ever done titers on your dogs? What is your acceptable protocol? 

I believe that if a dog is vaccinated after it's immune system is mature, it is protected for life. But I still do titer, and can't, at least for now, let go of the notion of vaccinating all together. Especially when I have such a socially active dog. I just see too much parvo (and some distemper) in partially and non-vaccinated puppies. At what age would you feel comfortable allowing your puppies to attend puppy kindergarten, daycare, grooming, obedience or conformation classes, etc etc? I'm not trying to be argumentative, promise.  I've never encountered anyone that doesn't do vaccines or nosodes and am genuinely curious.


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## Liz (Sep 27, 2010)

*Vaccines*

I did titre with my first two collies but they had such good immune responses I haven't titred anyone since. I have mentors who are non vaccinating and raw feeding for over 25 years and they help me when I worried or faltered. I am very careful with my newborns and babies. I expose my pups as if they were a wild cub. They stay very close to home for about 6 weeks then as they are naturally more curious we start visiting "safe" places. We go for neighborhood walks, we start taking them in the car to run errands. They go into Home Depot with me, I take them to church like I said previously to learn about kids and lots of them. They ride the church busses and they learn about stairs. About 8 -9 weeks they start visiting place like Mud Bay where other dogs have been but no huge traffic like Pet Smart. We also visit friends with well mannered adult dogs. By 9 weeks they all go everywhere with us including the lake we live near. We never go to dog parks as I don't do doggie free for alls even with my adults. I avoid the vet like a plague since there is the most disease there. My current three youngsters began conformation training at about 14 weeks. I don't do puppy classes just because I have access to so many kids and other dogs I don't see the need - plus I really hate the puppy classes around here as the pup are mostly just there to play and some pups are very rough. Again - I don't do doggie free for alls.  All three little ones have also been to practice shows. 

I have everything I need to treat for parvo, distemper, kennel cough, etc. This year I have received calls for help 4 times for parvo dogs. 2 were fully vaccinated adults and 1 was a current on vaccines litter and 1 was a friends pup who was also current on vaccines and had never left the house. All the dogs pulled through with our protocol. I personally have had no parvo-distemper - etc since we have stopped vaccinating. I lost my last litter who was current on their vaccinations. Several thousand dollars later I had lost a whole litter of 7 puppies who were current on vaccines and had never left my home and no one had been in to see them. Our current protocol of non vacc and exposure has given me healthy, high immune pups for 9 years. That is a record.  I hope I answered a little of your concern. I tend to get carried away with this but I am passionate about it. Even my children are not vaccinated.:wink:

I just found this in my puppy packet thought you would be interested:

A study conducted by Canine Health Concern during 1997, involving 4,000 dogs, showed that 68.2% of dogs in the survey with parvovirus contracted it within three months of being vaccinated. Similarly, 55.6% of dogs with distemper contracted it within three months of vaccination; 63.6% with hepatitis got it within three months of vaccination; 50% with parainfluenza contracted it within three months of vaccination; and every single dog with leptospirosis contracted it within that three month timeframe.
So vaccines represent - at best - only a 50/50 chance of protection. But if you doubt the validity of the CHC survey, ask around. It won't take long to find people whose dogs contracted these diseases shortly after being vaccinated, or humans who contracted diseases right after the jab.


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## bullyBug (May 31, 2012)

Thanks Liz. Feel free to get as carried away as you like, I don't get tired of reading about this stuff.

What protocol do you recommend for your puppy buyers that want to vaccinate?


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## Nana52 (Apr 28, 2012)

Liz, you're amazing. I wish I had a fraction of your knowledge and confidence (and one of your shelties)! Preach on honey!


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## Liz (Sep 27, 2010)

See I knew I missed something - LOL. In my contract I specify a single dose of parvo and a single dose of distemper. They have to be ordered as most vets don't carry them. So we request a single parvo at 16 weeks, then a single distemper no sooner than 18 weeks though 20 weeks is preferred and then a single killed rabies as far off as possible but we do ask they wait to 6 months. I also send thuja 30 c to be given for three days before the parvo and distemper shots, immediately following the shots and for three days after. And we also send lyssin 30 c for the same - 3 days before giving rabies and immediately following the rabies vaccine and for three days following. It is hoped that these homepathics will help mitigate some of the vaccine damage. We require that no collie or sheltie of ours is given any heartworm and will give initial heart worm preventative and instructions if so desired. Conventional heart worm treatment will nullify my contract. We recommend no topical and give all sorts of resources and other options but this one is impossible to enforce.  Not for lack of trying. I know I sound like a pain but I really don't interfere once you have my pups but I don want people to understand the choices they are making and that if they choose different there are consequences. I will not be held responsible when they choose to got heir own route.  Going on ten years and doing great. My puppy people stay in contact and I often petsit my dogs. I love seeing them and their owners are happy with their quality and more confident in raising them more holistically.


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## Sheltielover25 (Jan 18, 2011)

I want to be on the list to get one of your shelties on day too, Liz! I wouldn't ever vaccinate another animal of mine and if I were to buy, I'd only buy from a breeder like Liz who doesn't vaccinate period. I learned the hard way sadly, but now I know for the long future ahead of me that vaccines do more harm than good. People always try to bring up a particular story where a dog wasn't vaccinated got such and such but they never realize that story can be combated with hundreds of cases of dogs having issues because they WERE vaccinated. I'm way more scared of formaldehyde, carbolic acid, mercury and other toxins than I am parvo. I'm confident with the internet, forums, and other material I can treat my dog for just about anything a vaccine claims to prevent should that happen. 

I took in a foster pup a few months ago, and I didn't know this, but he had been given some flu vaccine --zoonosis or something -- and my sheltie got sick from it. She threw up for two days, shook violently...scared me, of course. She could only keep chamomille tea down. She never got dehydrated even though she vomited close to 40 times probably and on day three she drank broth, ate an egg, and slowly she started eating more and more. I'd give her a bunch of foods and she picked what she wanted and how much.... I trust her immune system with 100% confidence!


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## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

I just wonder what I am going to do when I need my dogs to go places they are required to have vaccines?

I don't have puppies, of course, but both my dogs are now out of date on everything except rabies. I am now excluded from the dog classes, from boarding, from doggy day care. If I get a job I'll have to get a petsitter at home, as no one will accept my dogs without current vaccines around here.

No, I am not complaining, because it was mainly you Liz who gave me the guts to quit giving vaccines. I am still working on the heartworm - I am up to 60 days now between doses so I'm better.

And I know I am doing better for my dogs. It just seems so many places require those vaccines, and especially bordatella which no one gets for any reason except when it's required.


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## Liz (Sep 27, 2010)

Pet sitters may be a little less expensive than doggie day car though there are more and more places allowing you to just sign a waiver if your dogs are not vaccinated. You could also let them know your dogs are seniors and have had adverse reactions to vaccines and you can have a waiver signed by your vet to this effect. I sign a waiver for conformation classes and rally class. When I go on vacation which is rare a friend will come to the house or I farm my pack out to two friends who are dog lovers and love my pups.


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## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

Liz said:


> Pet sitters may be a little less expensive than doggie day car though there are more and more places allowing you to just sign a waiver if your dogs are not vaccinated. You could also let them know your dogs are seniors and have had adverse reactions to vaccines and you can have a waiver signed by your vet to this effect. I sign a waiver for conformation classes and rally class. When I go on vacation which is rare a friend will come to the house or I farm my pack out to two friends who are dog lovers and love my pups.


Yes, i really wish I had someone I could get to pet sit. My neighbors would do it but I don't trust them to be gentle enough with snorkels. She isn't a special needs dog but she's definitely a "handle with care" dog and people just dont' understand how fast she can eat the craziest things no one ever thought of until it happens.

A waiver is a good idea, thanks. I will ask the vet about it. I know there are some good places to take dogs but there really aren't any around here. I MUST get a photo of the "Best Kennel in Texas" that is on my way to town - it's a mobile home with cages behind it.


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## Chocx2 (Nov 16, 2009)

Liz
Just to back up what your saying, I have only seen dogs that were vaccinated get sick. Its funny, but when I think about it what your saying makes perfect sense. Do you keep on hand holistic remedies for like parvo on hand? On a holistic site I was on they sell kits for breeders is that the same thing?

Sorry about all the questions, but like I said, I am going to breed my bitch once, she comes from a good line and has excellent health clearances, wouldn't do it if she didn't but I would like to follow how you do your puppies.

Since going to raw and seeing the difference in the dogs, I think the holistic way is a good, better way for pets.

I just get a lot of slack from my friend, she is a vet, but she is questioning me less? She does say that she would not be able to feed her dogs raw, she has 10 dogs.


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## Liz (Sep 27, 2010)

She sounds lovely and I am sure you have done all the testing and checks you should. In the holistic section I put a thread on feeding your pregnant girl and weaning pups and I think there is one on worming. As for holistic care I do not have the pre-assembled kit. So far I have never even used the parvaid which is so prescribed in these kits. I do have a vendor near me and should all else fail I would go to it I just have seen excellent results obviously on other protocols. We keep - pedialyte, Grapefruit Seed Extract (liquid by Nutribiotics), bentonite clay, Aconite, Oil of Oregano, lyssin and thuja. We also keep mint teas handy as they help soothe a troubled puppy tummy and Raspberry Leaf Tea for mom. Lyssin and thuja are sent home with new parents if they choose to give a minimal vaccinations. As for Parvo you just need to remember that parvo is not terminal - dehydration is what kills. That being the case hydration is key and then killing the intestinal virus/bacteria that is parvo. Oh, we also keep liver broth and homemade chicken broth frozen in ice cubes for emergencies. 

Slow and steady exposure will give your pups a super ability to form their own immunities to the world around them. I hope I answered your question. If not please feel free to ask away and you are always welcome to PM me.


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## 9405 (Jun 10, 2012)

I'm new to this site, and yes no one knows who I am (e-wise/internet-wise)....but in my experience it is best to vaccinate the booster puppy shots and then once more a year after. After that most veterinarians-even the holistic/natural minded ones- agree that it's not as (or even not fully) necessary.

I worked for 16 years in vet clinics as a RVT until recently-at 31 I changed careers and went to Nursing-humans, and at 33 I am now a RN. In my experience across the US (military) in several states I have seen most Parvo/Distemper in the puppies NOT vaccinated. I have only rarely seen one get Parvo after a initial booster vaccination: and it was suspected it may have been exposed either at the clinic itself, or prior. 

Just like with your children, they recieve their boosters to assist their immune systems. Yes the mothers antibodies are present in lessening amounts for some time (until the accepted age of 16-20 weeks) but there is a reason for boosting.

It's understandable to hold off vaccinations in some of the very small breeds-yes the vaccinations do have allergic reactions in certain breeds or in the small puppies (ie: chihuahuas, miniature breeds, etc) but that is why you use some of the suggestions here: wait a few weeks until the puppy is larger before initial vaccinations or ask for half vaccination amounts (Until the second booster which then should be full size if the puppy is large enough). 

I also choose not to vaccinate my dogs anymore-or my cat once he was a few years old. But I would not choose to go without the initial boosters (3 over 3 months) plus the one year post vaccination. Rabies being the exception and I follow state/military laws on that for my pets legal protection-and mine.

If you can do as Liz or some others do-which is control the environment surrounding the puppy SO WELL that you do not expose them to any chance of Parvo/Distemper/etc....then fine. But very few can actually do this successfully. I prefer my pets socialized at dog parks and some of the rivers/outside parks in every area I have been to /state I've lived in. I think of it like I would my children-wanting them to enjoy playing with friends/meeting and seeing things from all walks of life. That is my preference. 

But in my mind from what I saw as a VT/and then an RVT for the last 16 years until I gained my RN degree....I will never go without those initial puppy boosters and the first yearly boosters....much like I would not have my children not vaccinated for any of the many diseases that we are all protected against now.

If you choose not to vaccinate....please DON'T expose your puppies to places visited by many canines until their immune system has strengthened. Slow exposure such as Liz gave an example of is ideal-though I would not fully open exposure to all places until the puppy was nearly a year old if I had them go without vaccinations. Also remember you still should limit exposure to multiple canines/places multiple canines visit until after the 3 booster set is complete. I saw many puppies come in with the parvo virus after receiving only one booster-and the owner thought it was protected enough a month later to not vaccinate anymore-and to open the exposure to the outside fully.


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## Liz (Sep 27, 2010)

Hi Semunky and Welcome,

I think this is one where we have to agree to disagree. Oh my kids are unvaccinated also. Two- any number of vaccines creates damage - the more vaccinating the more potential for severe damage. Which is also why my children are not vaccinated. If vaccines only had the actual disease/ virus I would not have a problem but all the other toxins involved in the vaccine that cause the immune system to interact with the disease/virus is where the problem lies. I have seen the damage to my own homebred pups which is why I am really considering only selling to homes that will keep my pups unvaccinated. 

You may have misunderstood the timing of socialization. My pups need to be ready to go to their new homes by 12 -16 weeks old. By that age they are able to go most anywhere. I am not trying to keep them from being exposed to parvo, etc but trying to expose them in a natural manner so that their bodies can produce the anti bodies needed to fight various diseases/viruses they will encounter. Most of my pups have attended classes or a show or some big dog functions by the time they are 12 - 14 weeks old. I avoid dog parks more for behvioral reasons than anything else as most people are not paying attention to their dogs at dog parks and I do not want dogs or puppies that I have worked very hard to socialize and train to be mauled or have otherwise bad/scary experiences. Introducing youngsters to the well mannered dogs of friend and arranging playdates take a little more work but reinforces good behavior and proper play. My children do not run amok with whoever they like and neither will my pups. The vet is full of sick animals so I do avoid the office whenever possible - just like we avoid hospitals and dr.'s offices. There is more disease there than anywhere else. 

I am not alone in raising non vaccinated and raw fed pups. There are many, many who have done so for decades. I have seen the damage 1 shot, or 1 heartworm treatment can do on pups we have bred. I personally see no reason to introduce toxic substances purposefully into my dogs body to prevent a disease/virus that is curable, that they may never even get. The toxins in every shot are going to do damage whether I see it immediaely or not the damage is done. Parvo will cause some illness for a week but they will be fine after that and have some immunities - vaccinating on the other hand will cause issues that I and they will have to deal with for the rest of their lives.  

I understand where you are coming from having worked for a vet for a while myself but having lived differently can see the benefit of minimal interference. So far the benefits are stronger, happier, healthier, more stable dogs. I will continue to advocate non vaccinating as it really is no more difficult than feeding raw - a little research and preparation and you can be ready for any naturally occurring or man made virus that hits.


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## 9405 (Jun 10, 2012)

For most of the population this would not work Liz. I will agree to disagree.

It isn't viable for most to not vaccinate their kids and then send them to schools. It isn't also viable to be as hands on when there are jobs that take place outside the home-regarding home socialization. You are correct-there are many who don't vaccinate-not alot, but definitely a portion of the population.

In my experience-the ones who came in with parvo or distemper like symptoms that tested positive were unvaccinated.

I do not let my children run amok-nor my pets either. But they are exposed to many different places and people from different walks of life-as comes with being military and moved. They are very happy-both children and pets.

Thank you though for the explanation of how you succeed in the non-vaccination issue.


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## Chocx2 (Nov 16, 2009)

I only know of vaccinated dogs, I have one that was vaccinated, got parvo anyway, almost died, plazma, blood, and a whole lata love and hes my boy now.

I like change


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## 9405 (Jun 10, 2012)

Chocx2 said:


> I only know of vaccinated dogs, I have one that was vaccinated, got parvo anyway, almost died, plazma, blood, and a whole lata love and hes my boy now.
> 
> I like change


Because you vaccinate does not STOP them from possibly getting the virus...especially during that time up to 16-20 weeks when their bodies are still adjusting-regarding antibodies. You would have been advised NOT to take your pet out to public areas where you can't limit exposure to other dogs and their unknown vaccination history/unknown health. The vaccinations cause the puppy to produce antibodies against the virus-which makes its immune system stronger. During those crucial months though, your puppy is still able to gain illnesses if exposed to enough of the virus that the antibodies can't fight it off. This is why there is a series of vaccinations in place-in both pets and kids-to help the antibody levels get higher in the body and prevent any normal level of a virus/disease in nature not take over our pets immune systems, enabling that buffed immune system to fight the virus off easily.


The vast majority of parvo positive puppies I saw were people bringing in their already symptomatic pups to the vet, and the puppies were not vaccinated. Generally they were part of a litter-or just arrived a few days prior from being bought and probably been exposed during travels.

I also like change. I also believe the vaccination issue is overworked. This is why I do not take my pets to get anything beyond rabies vaccinations after the first 3 shot series AND 1-2 years of yearly vaccinations. I can tell you as a member of the military I have been over vaccinated myself. My point is merely that I AGREE wholeheartedly that the vaccination system is flawed...but worth it.

Being military, I am required to travel to many third world and underdeveloped countries and for extended lengths of times (Not just Afghanistan or Iraq. Military members are sent to Africa, South America, Central America, and even Europe to some of the more war torn countries there.) The severity of parvo/distemper (which is barely seen in the states anymore) in those countries without any petcare system in place is immense....and on the human side, the amount of deaths or illnesses from childhood diseases present that we do not have in this country-or other 1st world countries with vaccination programs in place-is immense as well.

I'm glad your puppy got better and I'm glad you did get him treated. The treatment is fluids (preferably IV) to keep the patient hydrated and reintroduce lost electrolytes back into the body, medications to prevent the vomiting and nausea as well as antibiotics. Care is supportive in nature, because you can not get rid of a virus via medications. Plasma and even blood transfusions can be necessary when they continue losing fluids (via diarrhea and vomiting) and is used to replace protein loss, provide antibodies, and help with anemia. Most typical owners can't afford the plasma or blood transfusions due to the cost versus the chance of the puppy passing. This is the sad truth-and I'm glad you did treat your puppy fully. Not all pet owners choose to/or are able to care for their pets like most on this forum seem to.

The discussion here though was regarding if the original poster should do her vaccinations. 

Clearly we all have opinions on the fact. Some seem to agree with puppy shots and a yearly, some none at all, and others probably fall between those two. I"m glad to see there is a forum where this can be discussed openly and without criminalizing one person's opinion over another. I am also VERY glad I live in a country where pets well being is central along with our own. This is a rarity in most of the world.


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