# earthborn grain free primitive naturals



## bett (Mar 15, 2012)

boo boo, sorry


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## lovemydogsalways (Mar 4, 2012)

I fed two 28# bags to my two Betty. The high ash scared me plus we had added a third dog (coonhound) so I switched them to Nutrisource performance. It is a 40 pound bag and also I thought the hound needed a good 30/20 food. 
I like the Primitive but I will only use it in rotation so the high ash doesn't harm them over time.
Eta: oops just saw you said GPF. I think that one is good also and the ash is not 12% in it. The great plains is 9.8%.


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## bett (Mar 15, 2012)

ok, i posted a corrected thread.
the great plains uses canola oil (genetically modified) so i'm trying to stay away from that.
this is making me nutty . or nuttier.


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## monster'sdad (Jul 29, 2012)

bett said:


> ok, i posted a corrected thread.
> the great plains uses canola oil (genetically modified) so i'm trying to stay away from that.
> this is making me nutty . or nuttier.


Who says the Canola Oil in GP is GMO? 

It should not be.

If Canola Oil is so bad, what does that say about Earthborn? Why would you pick another food from the same company that is trying to kill your dog with Canola Oil?


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## meggels (May 30, 2010)

I use the GPF, love it. Abbie does amazing on it.


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## bett (Mar 15, 2012)

monster'sdad said:


> Who says the Canola Oil in GP is GMO?
> 
> It should not be.
> 
> If Canola Oil is so bad, what does that say about Earthborn? Why would you pick another food from the same company that is trying to kill your dog with Canola Oil?


please, dont put words in my mouth. i didnt say the company is trying to kill my dog with canola oil i said, i dont want a food with canola oil, and i'm sure you know, that not all their foods have canola oil.


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## monster'sdad (Jul 29, 2012)

bett said:


> please, dont put words in my mouth. i didnt say the company is trying to kill my dog with canola oil i said, i dont want a food with canola oil, and i'm sure you know, that not all their foods have canola oil.


It is a valid question. If Canola Oil is dangerous what does that say about the company???

Canola Oil is a very good ingredient, but if you believe it is dangerous why would you buy a food from a company that uses it in anything?

This standard is generally applied to Purina and Eukanuba by the way. If Purina made a "holistic" formula, the criticism would be directed at its other products. Pro Plan Selects is a very good food but the association with Purina is the criticism. How often have you heard, "Well one Purina food tested postive for X, so Purina is bad". Or there is Vitamin K3 in all the other foods, or how do we know what Animal Fat is, or its owned by Nestle.

Champion has had numerous recalls, including using a BSE positive cow, dead cats and the foods have tested positive for BHA/BHT but you will never hear one quality criticism. We also know the fish used in the foods used to be thrown away and some important ingredients come from Alabama not Canada. People deny all this, but its documented.

I am just pointing out the double-standard that you seem to apply to Earthborn and others apply to other companies. 

The Earthborn foods you are worried about are safer than Primitive.


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## Sheltielover25 (Jan 18, 2011)

monster'sdad said:


> It is a valid question. If Canola Oil is dangerous what does that say about the company???
> 
> Canola Oil is a very good ingredient, but if you believe it is dangerous why would you buy a food from a company that uses it in anything?
> 
> ...


Dude do you have such a lack of life you have to come on here and argue about what ingredients someone should consider being negative? You need a life... who cares if someone does/doesn't want to feed a food with canola oil? You're not going to convince us canola oil is a "very good ingredient" and unlike almost every other civilized country, good ole America doesn't require labeling for GMO so you can't sit there and say it's not GMO anymore than I can. Get over it. 

Canola oil ISN'T fit for a carnivore ... now go feed your dog what you want and find a board that supports such foods.

And obviously Champion isn't "god" That's why the majority of us DON'T TRUST COMPANIES TO FEED OUR DOGS. You can't be THAT damn picky when you're feeding your animal a bag of meat and veggies that's got chemicals in it that will make it stay "good" for years. It comes down to the less of two evils when it comes to deciding a packaged, processed food to a living thing. Unless you can afford ZiwiPeak, you're feeding some chemicals and bad stuff.


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## meggels (May 30, 2010)

Sheltielover25 said:


> Dude do you have such a lack of life you have to come on here and argue about what ingredients someone should consider being negative? You need a life... who cares if someone does/doesn't want to feed a food with canola oil? You're not going to convince us canola oil is a "very good ingredient" and unlike almost every other civilized country, good ole America doesn't require labeling for GMO so you can't sit there and say it's not GMO anymore than I can. Get over it.
> 
> Canola oil ISN'T fit for a carnivore ... now go feed your dog what you want and find a board that supports such foods.



Well, to be fair...this IS the dry & canned section....so you probably don't think most of the ingredients are "fit for a carnivore". If that's the case, perhaps you should refrain from posting here?

I thought Monster's Dad's comment/question was valid. Can you two PLEASE stop finding reasons to argue about everything? Seriously...


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## Sheltielover25 (Jan 18, 2011)

meggels said:


> Well, to be fair...this IS the dry & canned section....so you probably don't think most of the ingredients are "fit for a carnivore". If that's the case, perhaps you should refrain from posting here?
> 
> I thought Monster's Dad's comment/question was valid. Can you two PLEASE stop finding reasons to argue about everything? Seriously...


That's not really true. Ziwipeak is dry food and I can't find anything in it not fit for a carnivore.

And there is a block if you don't want to read our posts... FYI.


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## bett (Mar 15, 2012)

monster'sdad said:


> It is a valid question. If Canola Oil is dangerous what does that say about the company???
> 
> Canola Oil is a very good ingredient, but if you believe it is dangerous why would you buy a food from a company that uses it in anything?
> 
> ...


ok, i'm gonna say it again. i dont want a food with canola oil. if you like canola oil, great, use it.i dont tell anyone what they should feed themselves or their dogs. you can use beneful, kibbles and bits or whatever-if you dont ask me what i think you should use, i say nothing.
i'm sensitive to re-calls, that's true, having nearly lost my oldest dog in the last diamond fiasco. so that being said, yes, i would like a company that hasnt had recalls. and i would like a food that doesnt use canola oil. earthborn, like nearly every other dog food company, makes many different foods, for many different reasons. i dont condemn the entire company because some of their food has canola oil . i choose to pick one that doesn't. in the same vein, i would choose to not use champion foods. for the reasons i 've already stated.

and monster's dad, it wasnt a valid question. you said the company is trying to kill my dog. i didnt. i said i dont want a food with that oil.
not really so hard to understand. unless you just want to pick away at this. 
i've heard you champion (sorry for that word) many different foods on many different boards at many different times.
so just like you, i'm searching for the food for my dogs.


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## monster'sdad (Jul 29, 2012)

Sheltielover25 said:


> Dude do you have such a lack of life you have to come on here and argue about what ingredients someone should consider being negative? You need a life... who cares if someone does/doesn't want to feed a food with canola oil? You're not going to convince us canola oil is a "very good ingredient" and unlike almost every other civilized country, good ole America doesn't require labeling for GMO so you can't sit there and say it's not GMO anymore than I can. Get over it.
> 
> Canola oil ISN'T fit for a carnivore ... now go feed your dog what you want and find a board that supports such foods.
> 
> And obviously Champion isn't "god" That's why the majority of us DON'T TRUST COMPANIES TO FEED OUR DOGS. You can't be THAT damn picky when you're feeding your animal a bag of meat and veggies that's got chemicals in it that will make it stay "good" for years. It comes down to the less of two evils when it comes to deciding a packaged, processed food to a living thing. Unless you can afford ZiwiPeak, you're feeding some chemicals and bad stuff.


Dudette,

You are a complete novice and always factually wrong. I keep track.

Meggells is right, go to the raw section and work on the basis of belief rather than science.

Dogs are omivores....this has been proven by genetic analysis at one the best universities in the world.


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## bett (Mar 15, 2012)

monster'sdad said:


> Dudette,
> 
> You are a complete novice and always factually wrong. I keep track.
> 
> ...


you keep track?
that in itself is a bit scary.

and sorry, but you've been known to not be right also.
and now you knock feeding raw? why, because you're in the dry food section?


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## monster'sdad (Jul 29, 2012)

bett said:


> you keep track?
> that in itself is a bit scary.
> 
> and sorry, but you've been know to not be right also.
> and now you knock feeding raw? why, because you're in the dry food section?


Yes for her, I keep track. She is part of the reason you are all stressed out, for absolutely no reason.

I would would say half the foods on the market use canola oil and I don't recall seeing anything about dogs being harmed.

Canola Oil is allowed up to 30% in baby formula, baby formula, after decades of study by some of the smartest scientists we have. Every country in the world allows Canola Oil in baby formula.

So who should I believe??

She is part of a mindset that is always right because of "belief". She isn't even out of college yet.


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## bett (Mar 15, 2012)

monster'sdad said:


> Yes for her, I keep track. She is part of the reason you are all stressed out, for absolutely no reason.
> 
> I would would say half the foods on the market use canola oil and I don't recall seeing anything about dogs being harmed.
> 
> ...


she has zero to do with any stress i may or may not have.
you can believe who ever and what ever you want. i'm not here to change your mind about anything. 
and yes, many foods use canola oil. and yes, they've been in baby foods and other things for many years.
and monsanto, turns me right off. 
so , that's what i choose to believe.
and am i supposed to value a young person less , because they are not out of college yet?
oh boy, i remember my parents saying things like that.

and i also remember the marlboro man looking all hot and sexy smoking cigarettes. and i remember thinking how cool it is to smoke cigarettes. and how many years did it take, for a warning label to be on the pack of cigarettes.?


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## meggels (May 30, 2010)

Sheltielover25 said:


> That's not really true. Ziwipeak is dry food and I can't find anything in it not fit for a carnivore.
> 
> And there is a block if you don't want to read our posts... FYI.


Okay, that's one dry food, but the majority of what is discussed in kibble & canned section are ingredients or practices that you have made abundantly clear you don't agree with, so why post here? 

I don't feel the need to block you, I would have done that if I had, but for the newer members, and others that have already complained off of the boards, you two bickering on so many threads gets tiresome. It brings the boards down.


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## meggels (May 30, 2010)

Bett- what kind of budget are you working with? And what are the things you want to avoid in a food and company? If you can just make a quick list, I'll brainstorm some possible choices, if I can think of any lol.


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## bett (Mar 15, 2012)

meggels said:


> Bett- what kind of budget are you working with? And what are the things you want to avoid in a food and company? If you can just make a quick list, I'll brainstorm some possible choices, if I can think of any lol.


Great! I have 3 labs but this food would be for two of them. I have intense fear of a company with recalls ( i know so many have had them but it freaks me out, because of my experience with rex). I fed two different gf fromm's and honestly, was happy with them, except i found them a bit pricey but at this point, i'm ready to finish up the earthborn and go back to it.
I find their coats are better, no foot chewing, no ear stuff, on the grain free.
I do supplement, add sardines every week or so, non fat yogurt or cottage cheese, and eggs at times. I've toyed with raw but my female throws it up.i'd like the two, on the same food.
I would like to stay away from the canola oil, knowing that i have zero control over what the 'animal' in the food was fed.
If you tell me that fromm gf is the way to go, i wont be surprised.
I dont mean to be a pita, but my experience with diamond made me a bit nuts. I've spoken to the fromm folks, and was impressed with their customer service.
Both (actually all 3) of my labs, are couch potatoes.jake is 10 and 75 lbs of muscle.nothing i did, just his body and he's larger than vangie, who is about 58 lbs but was removed from her blind partner by guiding eyes, for being obese. I believe 85 lbs. i got her at 65 lbs and they wanted her a bit lighter.she's not skinny and i also keep her light due to some spay incontinence, which is now, knock on wood, under control with some chinese herbs. She's only 4.
Thank you so much for again, listening to my tale, and trying to brainstorm with me.


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## meggels (May 30, 2010)

Okay, I will brainstorm throughout the day  So grain free, but any protein is okay? Just no canola oil?


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## bett (Mar 15, 2012)

Yes. No known protein issues with either one of them( have eaten chicken, turkey, fish, duck, lamb)
Thank you so much!


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## BeagleCountry (Jan 20, 2012)

A bit more expensive than Earthborn Primitive Natural but Horizon Legacy Adult (chicken based) seems to be a good food. They also have a fish formula that does not include chicken. Ash (max) 8.4-8.6%.
Legacy | Horizon

Horizon Legacy 28.6 lb. $59.99 = $2.10/lb.
Earthborn Primitive Natural 28.0 lb. $50.99 = $1.82/lb.
Product Search | PetFlow.com
Earthborn Holistic - Free Shipping from PetFlow.com

As with most food Earthborn is less expensive at chewy.com than at petflow.com. chewy.com does not offer Horizon products.
Earthborn Holistic Primitive Natural Grain-Free Dry Dog Food

Your caution in regard to the ingredients and manufacturer is completely understandable.

ETA: Another thought. Victor Grain Free. 
http://www.victordogfood.com/

Below is a discussion with some prices in NY.
"Ultra Pro (GF) 30lbs-42/22 44.99
All life stage(GF) 30lbs-33/16-40.99
Yukon River(gf)-(fish)30lbs 33/15-45.99(did not try this one yet)

Select professional-grain inclusive(26/18) 32.99 40lb
The beef/rice is 40lb(not sure of fat etc as I have not tried) $29.99 or 26.99-can't remember."

http://www.dogfoodadvisor.com/dog-food-reviews/victor-grain-free/


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## nupe (Apr 26, 2011)

meggels said:


> Well, to be fair...this IS the dry & canned section....so you probably don't think most of the ingredients are "fit for a carnivore". If that's the case, perhaps you should refrain from posting here?
> 
> I thought Monster's Dad's comment/question was valid. Can you two PLEASE stop finding reasons to argue about everything? Seriously...



But then whats the point of coming on the forums??...but to argue....isnt that why 70% of us are here??...I definitely know some of the people here disagree with each other even if they do really agree deep down inside.. , just to start a argument..sad but true...oh yeah...i'M backkk Guysss, by the wayy...""..lol


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## InkedMarie (Sep 9, 2011)

Bett, I'm on my tablet, can't figure out how to open new tabs but have you looked at NutriSource and Dr Tim's? Both have grain free and decently priced.


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## bett (Mar 15, 2012)

nupe said:


> But then whats the point of coming on the forums??...but to argue....isnt that why 70% of us are here??...I definitely know some of the people here disagree with each other even if they do really agree deep down inside.. , just to start a argument..sad but true...oh yeah...i'M backkk Guysss, by the wayy...""..lol


i checked out, as best i could, and compared them to the fromm gf, which is a bit pricier but i think i still like the fromm gf better (i know, monster's dad is going to tell me about all the stuff in there that 's unnecessary) but the other food has the pea protein or lentils higher up on the list.
i appreciate everyone's help, and yes, inked marie i also looked up dr tim (not for my couch potatoes, and canola oil) and nutrisource (oy, i forgot why not nutrisource-could be recalls or where the pea stuff was in the list.)
anyway, i'm thinking the fromm's unless something else hits me. the horizon might be my second choice. 
vctor gf didnt thrill me because the sorghum (another corn like ingredient,imho) is high on their list.

AGAIN, THANKS SO MUCH FOR ALL YOUR (NON-JUDGEMENTAL) HELP


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## InkedMarie (Sep 9, 2011)

Bett, I meant the Dr Tim's GF but didn't know if it has canola oil or not.


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## DaViking (Sep 27, 2011)

bett said:


> i checked out, as best i could, and compared them to the fromm gf, which is a bit pricier but i think i still like the fromm gf better (i know, monster's dad is going to tell me about all the stuff in there that 's unnecessary) but the other food has the pea protein or lentils higher up on the list.
> i appreciate everyone's help, and yes, inked marie i also looked up dr tim (not for my couch potatoes, and canola oil) and nutrisource (oy, i forgot why not nutrisource-could be recalls or where the pea stuff was in the list.)
> anyway, i'm thinking the fromm's unless something else hits me. the horizon might be my second choice.
> vctor gf didnt thrill me because the sorghum (another corn like ingredient,imho) is high on their list.
> ...


Fromm include GMO ingredients too. Someone here email them some time back and if I don't remember wrong from the response they practically said GMO ingredients are found in their food.
What's wrong with sorghum and what makes it corn like?


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## monster'sdad (Jul 29, 2012)

InkedMarie said:


> Bett, I meant the Dr Tim's GF but didn't know if it has canola oil or not.


Yes, it is the 26th ingredient in the GF Dr. Tim's.


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## monster'sdad (Jul 29, 2012)

DaViking said:


> Fromm include GMO ingredients too. Someone here email them some time back and if I don't remember wrong from the response they practically said GMO ingredients are found in their food.
> What's wrong with sorghum and what makes it corn like?


Sorghum is considered a "health food". I wish more was grown here and not exported. It requires very little care and can grow under the harshest of conditions.

In some foods they call it Milo or White Milo, that sounds a lot better than Sorghum and I doubt anyone would say Boo calling it Milo. That is the nonsense that goes on.


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## Squeeji (Feb 17, 2012)

bett said:


> i checked out, as best i could, and compared them to the fromm gf, which is a bit pricier but i think i still like the fromm gf better (i know, monster's dad is going to tell me about all the stuff in there that 's unnecessary) but the other food has the pea protein or lentils higher up on the list.
> i appreciate everyone's help, and yes, inked marie i also looked up dr tim (not for my couch potatoes, and canola oil) and nutrisource (oy, i forgot why not nutrisource-could be recalls or where the pea stuff was in the list.)
> anyway, i'm thinking the fromm's unless something else hits me. the horizon might be my second choice.
> vctor gf didnt thrill me because the sorghum (another corn like ingredient,imho) is high on their list.
> ...


I feed Victor and its pretty nice stuff, but the GF doesn't have Sorghum in it...that's in the 'regular' feed, the carbs in the grainfree are Sweet Potatoes and Peas from what I see. 

Though honestly if the Fromm GF worked for you and yours, I think you should stick to that until you find something else...I've been happy with both Fromm and Victor so far, both very helpful companies trying to create a quality product.


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## bett (Mar 15, 2012)

monster'sdad said:


> Sorghum is considered a "health food". I wish more was grown here and not exported. It requires very little care and can grow under the harshest of conditions.
> 
> In some foods they call it Milo or White Milo, that sounds a lot better than Sorghum and I doubt anyone would say Boo calling it Milo. That is the nonsense that goes on.



there's a thread, on this forum about sorghum.and for folks that dont mind corn as a filler, they wont mind this either.
i mind.


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## DaViking (Sep 27, 2011)

bett said:


> there's a thread, on this forum about sorghum.and for folks that dont mind corn as a filler, they wont mind this either.
> i mind.


The filler argument for corn, beet pulp, what have you, and now of all things sorghum, doesn't have any substance since the nay sayers then must use the same logic on every non animal ingredient present. And if that's the case you are outside the realm of any commercially prepared formula. That's fine but don't go looking for one then.


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## InkedMarie (Sep 9, 2011)

monster'sdad said:


> Yes, it is the 26th ingredient in the GF Dr. Tim's.


You'd think I know what ingredient is in my dogs foods but I feed so many, I honestly don't keep tract.
Ginger is doing just fine on Pursuit so...


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## monster'sdad (Jul 29, 2012)

DaViking said:


> The filler argument for corn, beet pulp, what have you, and now of all things sorghum, doesn't have any substance since the nay sayers then must use the same logic on every non animal ingredient present. And if that's the case you are outside the realm of any commercially prepared formula. That's fine but don't go looking for one then.


Arsenic in rice is much more important than anything right now. That never comes up.


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## bett (Mar 15, 2012)

monster'sdad said:


> Arsenic in rice is much more important than anything right now. That never comes up.


sure it does.


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## bett (Mar 15, 2012)

DaViking said:


> The filler argument for corn, beet pulp, what have you, and now of all things sorghum, doesn't have any substance since the nay sayers then must use the same logic on every non animal ingredient present. And if that's the case you are outside the realm of any commercially prepared formula. That's fine but don't go looking for one then.


well, i dont think i agree that every non animal is equivalent to corn, or beet pulp or what have you.
but that's ok.

i'm not here long enough, to know, but what do you feed or do you feed raw?


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## DaViking (Sep 27, 2011)

bett said:


> well, i dont think i agree that every non animal is equivalent to corn, or beet pulp or what have you.
> but that's ok.
> 
> i'm no here long enough, to know, but what do you feed or do you feed raw?


It's been a gazillion threads on the topic by now. Your use of the word "filler" is a little outdated. Your way of using it only make sense if we talk about bad grocery/big box store type foods. For the rest every ingredient is there for a functional reason and someone somewhere put together an ingredient list to achieve certain properties in the food. These properties are directly linked to what ingredients are used. This includes good brands with corn an beet pulp. It's 2013 and I don't know any authority on commercial pet foods who questions the use of beet pulp as a source of dietary fiber. The last one was Robert Abady and he is now diseased. Secondly, reading the Abady rationale it's clear as day that the beef was not with beet pulp in particular but with adding any dietary fiber at all. I don't know many who will agree with him in that dietary fiber in kibble is bad. Using this old way of identifying "fillers" doesn't help dogs one bit. A true filler can be something like excessive ash or excessive moisture. These are true fillers since they serve no purpose what so ever and you pay for them. Why would you have up to 15% of the kibble serving no purpose other than making your wallet a little lighter? And again, all my arguments are based on good quality kibble, not garbage from the grocery store. Sometimes here I feel it's necessary to point that out otherwise anyone can make any argument make sense.

I feed kibble with raw additions but I fed a PMR type raw diet to working dogs for a long time some years back.


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## bett (Mar 15, 2012)

DaViking said:


> It's been a gazillion threads on the topic by now. Your use of the word "filler" is a little outdated. Your way of using it only make sense if we talk about bad grocery/big box store type foods. For the rest every ingredient is there for a functional reason and someone somewhere put together an ingredient list to achieve certain properties in the food. These properties are directly linked to what ingredients are used. This includes good brands with corn an beet pulp. It's 2013 and I don't know any authority on commercial pet foods who questions the use of beet pulp as a source of dietary fiber. The last one was Robert Abady and he is now diseased. Secondly, reading the Abady rationale it's clear as day that the beef was not with beet pulp in particular but with adding any dietary fiber at all. I don't know many who will agree with him in that dietary fiber in kibble is bad. Using this old way of identifying "fillers" doesn't help dogs one bit. A true filler can be something like excessive ash or excessive moisture. These are true fillers since they serve no purpose what so ever and you pay for them. Why would you have up to 15% of the kibble serving no purpose other than making your wallet a little lighter? And again, all my arguments are based on good quality kibble, not garbage from the grocery store. Sometimes here I feel it's necessary to point that out otherwise anyone can make any argument make sense.
> 
> I feed kibble with raw additions but I fed a PMR type raw diet to working dogs for a long time some years back.



Ok, instead of using an 'outdated' word ( filler) what would you call it?
I never thought it only applied to grocery store kibble. Why do you say that? Theres plenty of not so great kibble sold in pet food stores and on-line too .dont you think?
And i'd take all of those( corn, beet pulp, sorghum) rather than sawdust. 

So again, which kibble are you using?
I'm starting think it might not be so terrible if i home cook for all 3 of my dogs. Then, i would guess, i can control what i use and not bore anyone asking questions and trying to learn, while doing so.


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## BLKLABS (Feb 18, 2013)

Good topic!
Hi there, I'm new here, and "fillers" are more than what you think they are. 
Here's more info on fillers in dog kibbles:

*Some common fillers include:*

Gluten and grain products, such as corn and wheat: These server as a source of sugar and, as dogs are carnivores, they are of little nutritional value. Often, a grain product will leave the body just as it entered as it will not be broken down or absorbed.
Soy: This filler is responsible for a huge portion of pet allergies that can result in sneezing, itching, swelling, anaphylactic shock, and death.
Seed hulls: Cottonseed and peanut hulls
Weeds and straw
Citrus pulp
Beet pulp: While this can provide a good source of fiber, beet pulp has been known to plug the intestinal villus.
Animal by-products: These are the "left-overs" once an animal has been prepared for human consumption. This may include intestines, chicken heads, lungs, livers, kidneys, duckbills, chicken and turkey feet, feathers and bone. Ingredients listed as chicken, beef, poultry, and animal by-products are not required to include actual meat. Animal digest, animal fat, meat by-products, and chicken by-products are all animal by-products and are described in better detail below.
Animal digest: Produced by chemical or enzymatic hydrolysis of an undecomposed animal. This has also been described as "manure" and "a cooked-down broth, which can be made from unspecified parts of unspecified animals. The animals used can be obtained from almost any source and no control is in place over quality or contamination. Any kind of animal can be included: "4-D animals" (dead, diseased, disabled, or dying prior to slaughter), goats, pigs, horses, rats, euthanized at animal shelters, restaurant and supermarket refuse and so on."
Animal fat: Obtained from the tissues of animals during rendering or extracting and generally comes from an unknown origin. BHA, an artificial preservative suspected of causing cancer, may be used to preserve the animal fat.
Meat by-products: These are the non-rendered parts, other than the meat, and are derived from slaughter animals. This includes, but is not limited to, the spleen, kidneys, livers, brain, lungs, blood, bone, stomachs, and intestines.
Chicken by-product meal: Ground and rendered chicken products, including necks, feet, intestines, and undeveloped eggs.

*And unhealthy fillers to avoid are: *

Unhealthy Fillers and Ingredients
Grain Fillers: Cornmeal, Oatmeal and White Flour
Preservatives: BHA and BHT

We've fed our Labs RAW/Homemade for 13+ years, our youngest is currently kibble fed, for now, and no matter how you look at ingredient lists on kibble bags, there are fillers in them.


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## DaViking (Sep 27, 2011)

BLKLABS said:


> Good topic!
> Hi there, I'm new here, and "fillers" are more than what you think they are.
> Here's more info on fillers in dog kibbles:
> 
> ...


Sigh, no, to simplistic, old myths to a large part. Just reading the first point in your list shows how inaccurate this is. Here's another example; You say "chicken, beef, poultry, and animal by-products are not required to include actual meat" Who cares? AAFCO isn't Martha Stewart, it's not a place to get recipes for dog food. I don't care about Ol Roy, do you? There are good foods out there who use chicken by-product meals with a digestibility higher than meals used in many more expensive foods some seem to praise. That means it includes little to nothing of what some scaremongers preach is in the meal. If you want I can link you the data sheets for some of these products.
Anyways, some of those ingredients you list are of questionable value/use for sure but they belong in a nutritional discussion. As used in many cheap low quality foods they are fillers for sure. Thing is, no one here cares about discussing these types of foods unless it's to warn against, show disgust or have a laugh.



BLKLABS said:


> our youngest is currently kibble fed, for now, and no matter how you look at ingredient lists on kibble bags, there are fillers in them.


No. A carbohydrate is not a filler (but it can be), a protein isolate/concentrate is not a filler (but it can be), dietary fiber is not filler, inulin is not a filler. Functional fruits, berries and botanicals are not fillers. If you think so the entire kibble section is not for you and you should not feed it to your youngest then.

Reading ingredient panels is of limited value in terms of determining if a food is great or not.


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## DaViking (Sep 27, 2011)

bett said:


> So again, which kibble are you using?
> I'm starting think it might not be so terrible if i home cook for all 3 of my dogs. Then, i would guess, i can control what i use and not bore anyone asking questions and trying to learn, while doing so.


I am feeding Nutram, a Canadian brand you can't get south of the border.
Feeding home cooked is great. It takes a lot of knowledge and some time though but if you want to try I say go for it. I am not bored, if you bored me I wouldn't bother replying would I


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## BLKLABS (Feb 18, 2013)

Those are not "my" lists, just Google "fillers in dog kibbles/foods" and you'll find these lists.


> Thing is, no one here cares about discussing these types of foods unless it's to warn against, show disgust or have a laugh.


Well then, I'll go back and play on the other board where I'm known as "the food guru".


> No. A carbohydrate is not a filler (but it can be), a protein isolate/concentrate is not a filler (but it can be), dietary fiber is not filler, inulin is not a filler. Functional fruits, berries and botanicals are not fillers. If you think so the entire kibble section is not for you and you should not feed it to your youngest then.


Did I say that carbs, proteins, fibers, fruits and veggies were fillers? No, I didn't! But nonetheless, there are fillers in kibbles, just look twice.

And BTW, Nutrum isn't the best kibble sold in Calgary, I should know, I live here .



> Feeding home cooked is great. It takes a lot of knowledge


Well thank you for the compliment, that's exactly why our EPI girl lived longer than expected, because we home-cooked for her for 10 of the 12 years of her life. And, that's exactly why our HOD, etc, girl is doing so well on her RAW/Homemade diet. And her blood work and urine tests prove it.


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## bett (Mar 15, 2012)

DaViking said:


> I am feeding Nutram, a Canadian brand you can't get south of the border.
> Feeding home cooked is great. It takes a lot of knowledge and some time though but if you want to try I say go for it. I am not bored, if you bored me I wouldn't bother replying would I



Lots of different types of nutram- i looked thru some.

Hard to tell if i bore you actually but im not taking it personally.


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## DaViking (Sep 27, 2011)

BLKLABS said:


> And BTW, Nutrum isn't the best kibble sold in Calgary, I should know, I live here .


You make it sound like you have some hidden secret the rest of Calgarians and Canadians don't know. Not sure living in a particular city qualifies anyone to know what's best; but shoot me a name, what is it? What's the "best" kibble around? Hey, I just moved here from the Ontario so what do I know but it will shock me if the selection is better than the GTA. What I have seen so far is less selection.



BLKLABS said:


> Well then, I'll go back and play on the other board where I'm known as "the food guru".


Please stay. Don't read it as I meant you have nothing to contribute. I meant that no one here really care to waste time on Ol Roy, Alpo, Beneful and similar. Foods where you will find most of the things on "your" list. Including horrible meat and bones meals etc.

Hang around for a bit and get to know the ppl here and what they are about.


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## DaViking (Sep 27, 2011)

bett said:


> Hard to tell if i bore you actually but im not taking it personally.


Another one fond of meta discussions, I'm out, you'r welcome.


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## MNBark (Jan 23, 2013)

DaViking said:


> What's the "best" kibble around in your opinion then?
> I meant that no one here really care to waste time on Ol Roy, Alpo, Beneful and similar. Foods where you will find most of the things on "your" list. Including horrible meat and bones meals etc.


Am curious -- has anyone ever tried to make the case for any of those? Did they change their minds, leave in frustration? Or does no one like that bother to show up?


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## DaViking (Sep 27, 2011)

MNBark said:


> Am curious -- has anyone ever tried to make the case for any of those? Did they change their minds, leave in frustration? Or does no one like that bother to show up?


Can't think of a single one in my time here that have stood up for Ol Roy or similar. I don't know but maybe it is that simple that if all the effort that goes into food for your pooch is grabbing a bag on your way to get toilet paper they are not likely to bother with "wasting time" on DFC?


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## MNBark (Jan 23, 2013)

DaViking said:


> Can't think of a single one in my time here that have stood up for Ol Roy or similar. I don't know but maybe it is that simple that if all the effort that goes into food for your pooch is grabbing a bag on your way to get toilet paper they are not likely to bother with "wasting time" on DFC?


It would be nice, and reasonable, for a pet owner to find something in the pet food aisle that would work. I think that is the reason people trust the commercials -- because it seems so logical that the place you get your food, albeit not as kibble, should be the place you can find nutritious food for your pet. 

People dislike Walmart for a lot of reasons, but my #1 reason was always Ol' Roy. A coworker once told me that he'd seen my husband there, and I told him that he must be mistaken. He insisted it was true, and then mentioned which one -- the one 2 miles from our house. When he saw husband show up later, he apologized to him, "I'm sorry -- from her reaction, you would have been better off if I said I found you with another woman." Turns out, he was browsing the aisles while waiting for carryout. (And, yes, he IS a saint to be married to me.)


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## bett (Mar 15, 2012)

DaViking said:


> Another one fond of meta discussions, I'm out, you'r welcome.



that was a "meta" discussion?

i think it's when one says things like "outdated" and "sigh" and that type of stuff, that really doesnt make the reader feel like they are a contributing member of a discussion. i'm used to hershey or monster's dad (well, kind of used to) but it doesnt make one want to interact. i love learning and that's why i asked the question to begin with , actually.

and while i cant answer for anyone but myself, i dont think we were really discussing the type of kibble like beneful or ole roy. i thought we were trying to have a discussion about the stuff in kibble that wasn't liked. well, me anyway.

and when i read other responses, not necessarily in this thread, i see words like "filler" used all the time. i never did get the "right " word to use, since filler is "outdated" and does nothing to help dogs (what does that mean, anyway). 

nope, didnt leave , in frustration, or anything. 
if i were frustrated, it would be in trying to find one kibble for two dogs.that i really loved.
i'm not usually on a kibble roller coaster, tho, i do admit, after the diamond incident, i read the bags much more carefully (not that had a thing to do with the incident).
i never ever was one that looked at the pretty pictures on the kibble bag, on the way near the toilet paper and actually thought perhaps, this is a good kibble.


i'll be around.


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## DaViking (Sep 27, 2011)

bett said:


> that was a "meta" discussion?
> 
> i think it's when one says things like "outdated" and "sigh" and that type of stuff, that really doesnt make the reader feel like they are a contributing member of a discussion. i'm used to hershey or monster's dad (well, kind of used to) but it doesnt make one want to interact. i love learning and that's why i asked the question to begin with , actually.
> 
> ...


It's outdated (as in parroted by simplistic views over many years), inaccurate and wrong as that way of looking at what is a filler does nothing to help you pick a better food for your dogs. If you where new here and currently feeding Beneful looking for answers then yes, it's ok to use the word "filler" about a host of different ingredient as they are there not to provide optimal nutrition to the dog but rather line the pockets of the manufacturer. Now, you are not new here and you are not transitioning from Beneful or similar. So, in your case you'll encounter very little "fillers" on your search for another food. The main "filler" you should look for are often not found on the nutritional panel and that is ash. That's where many premium and super premium foods hide their savings. The numbers varies a little but for the sake of this argument let's say 3% total ash covers everything a dog need in minerals. 3% is extremely hard to achieve, a few foods are in the 4's with the use of plant protein concentrates. Then there are some that use good quality animal protein sources and manage to end up somewhere around 6%. So what does that mean? It means around 6% is very much doable by paying attention to the quality of the animal protein used, not difficult at all, not rocket science to make it happen. If we set 6 - 7% as the standard it's easy to figure out who is just "filling" up your food with sub-standard ingredients. Bottom line, it's a true filler no one can make a case for (some exceptions), it wastes weight and you pay for it. All other ingredients in the type of premium and super premium food you are looking for are there for a qualified reason, doesn't mean all those foods are great though but still. You may not like every kind of ingredient used but that doesn't automatically make an ingredient a "filler".


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## bett (Mar 15, 2012)

DaViking said:


> It's outdated (as in parroted by simplistic views over many years), inaccurate and wrong as that way of looking at what is a filler does nothing to help you pick a better food for your dogs. If you where new here and currently feeding Beneful looking for answers then yes, it's ok to use the word "filler" about a host of different ingredient as they are there not to provide optimal nutrition to the dog but rather line the pockets of the manufacturer. Now, you are not new here and you are not transitioning from Beneful or similar. So, in your case you'll encounter very little "fillers" on your search for another food. The main "filler" you should look for are often not found on the nutritional panel and that is ash. That's where many premium and super premium foods hide their savings. The numbers varies a little but for the sake of this argument let's say 3% total ash covers everything a dog need in minerals. 3% is extremely hard to achieve, a few foods are in the 4's with the use of plant protein concentrates. Then there are some that use good quality animal protein sources and manage to end up somewhere around 6%. So what does that mean? It means around 6% is very much doable by paying attention to the quality of the animal protein used, not difficult at all, not rocket science to make it happen. If we set 6 - 7% as the standard it's easy to figure out who is just "filling" up your food with sub-standard ingredients. Bottom line, it's a true filler no one can make a case for (some exceptions), it wastes weight and you pay for it. All other ingredients in the type of premium and super premium food you are looking for are there for a qualified reason, doesn't mean all those foods are great though but still. You may not like every kind of ingredient used but that doesn't automatically make an ingredient a "filler".


ok, it's outdated. and you're right, i'm not transitioning from a beneful type kibble. while it's "outdated" i hear and read about it on every single forum i'm on, so i guess, tho it's outdated, it's still a term that is used. 
and yes, the ash is what is concerning me, right now, with the earthborn i have been using for the last several months. i never knew the ash was a concern if high,(live and learn) which is why i started this thread.
and i do understand that not every other ingredient is a "filler". that was never the issue, i dont think.
anyway, for now, i'm going with the fromm on my next order but if i find or come across anything that satisfies me more......


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