# Oh...my...Gawd....



## xxshaelxx (Mar 8, 2010)

I think I may throw up...

So, as most of you probably know, I found out after obtaining my two dogs, Ryou and Amaya, that the breeder isn't all that ethical. Well, I just found out JUST how unethical she really is...










If I'm not mistaken, that dog is pregnant. Not a problem, right? Something you'd expect of a breeder, right?

I know for a fact that Kissy, as she's called, is about a year old, maybe a few months older than a year.

Stasi, the breeder, is trying to hide this fact. She hasn't announced the litter, she's deleted the dog's profile on her site, and doesn't mention the age of the dog anywhere, or anything about her.


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## wags (Jan 31, 2009)

She (Kissy) is a beautiful dog. I can see why this woman wants to breed her. But why so young? She's a baby! Is this breeder (Stasi), a BYB or should I say does Stasi have the gall to be like one? Thats just sad! At least shes not in a tiny cage and just pumping them out. :frown:
It does make you mad when you see things like this! Mad or maybe just plain old SAD!


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## xxshaelxx (Mar 8, 2010)

She tries to preach about reputable breeding, and all that jazz, but she's had several "oops" breedings. She had one inbred litter, one surprise litter, and now this. Amaya and Ryou's mums have both had a litter since theirs, and it's their third litter in a row! She has about...I want to say fifteen, but she's already at eight litters for the year! She's a total backyard breeder! When I found her, she only had one litter at a time, and it didn't seem like she was this way at all.

I can imagine it was a mistake, but seriously? You're keeping your males in with your females that can go into heat at any time? I mean, at least the dogs aren't kept in cages, she does do testing (not always before breeding, unfortunately), but she doesn't know what she's doing and has way too many dogs!


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## malluver1005 (Nov 15, 2009)

xxshaelxx said:


> She has about...I want to say fifteen, but she's already at eight litters for the year!


Holy crap! That's a lot of litters!! Aspen's mama only had about 2 litters a year for about 2-3 years!



> I can imagine it was a mistake, but seriously? You're keeping your males in with your females that can go into heat at any time?


Geez! The breeder were I got Aspen from kept all of the dogs in separate runs. :smile:


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## xxshaelxx (Mar 8, 2010)

malluver1005 said:


> Holy crap! That's a lot of litters!! Aspen's mama only had about 2 litters a year for about 2-3 years!


Oh, I meant total, not with one bitch. There are, like, nine-ten different dogs that she's breeding, a couple of them over and over again. Also, 2 litters a year is quite a few!!! Dogs are only supposed to be bred 2-3 times in their life, and it's never supposed to be back to back.  Or from what I've heard.


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## DaneMama (Jun 27, 2008)

Sounds like a puppy miller, not just a BYB :frown:


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## malluver1005 (Nov 15, 2009)

xxshaelxx said:


> and it's never supposed to be back to back.  Or from what I've heard.


She would have a litter in the spring and then in the fall. Can't remember if it was for 2 or 3 years, or 1-2 years. But she was TOTALLY not a BYB. She had nice clean looking dogs and her backyard was beautiful, and it was about 1.5 acres. She had a contract and guarantee and everything. All dogs were tested and healthy. I loved everything about her. She came home and checked out our yard and questioned us about dog experience. Thinking back, the only thing I didn't like about her was that she fed Purina Pro Plan. But that is a different topic. :smile:


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## xxshaelxx (Mar 8, 2010)

danemama08 said:


> Sounds like a puppy miller, not just a BYB :frown:


Sometimes I wonder....

However, I've seen her kennel. She has a two acre lot that she goes to twice a day to feed the dogs, let them stretch and run about, and about ten kennels set up (though she has more that she can set up). I've met all the dogs, and they were definitely happy and healthy, and in a clean environment. The puppies are kept in her garage, also a nice, clean environment. She does health testing, all of the papers are legit, I've looked up several of her lined dogs that have competed and found it all to be legit. So basically, she just overbreeds, doesn't breed for quality, but rather quantity, and yes, color/eye color, and allows accidents to happen. 

I'm pretty sure this was an accident (still makes me gag), because she never announced it or anything. She is trying to hide it, though.

I just do not agree with her practices of breeding at all...She needs to stop, because she's totally doing more harm than good.


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## CorgiPaws (Mar 31, 2009)

xxshaelxx said:


> Dogs are only supposed to be bred 2-3 times in their life, and it's never supposed to be back to back.  Or from what I've heard.


This is very much so a matter of opinion.

I'm doing a TON of research on breeding, since it's something Jon and I are actively persuing, and I'm learning more everyday that breeding is more of an art than a science. I am BY NO MEANS justifying the practices of having that many dogs, and breeding that many litters pet year, because there's just no way it can be done by one person the PROPER way. 
Some breeders will breed two heats in a row, and then rest the bitch for two heats. Some breed every other heat. Some breed every three heats. All of these are acceptable, but it greatly depends on the bitch, how she takes to pregnancy and caring for pups, and how quickly she recovers. What is NOT acceptable is breeding back to back heats over and over without giving the female a chance to take a good long break, and that's what it sounds like she's doing.:frown:


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## whiteleo (Sep 7, 2008)

It doesn't really matter, do all these dogs go to people who will show them? If not, she's way overbreeding her brood, just think how many more Sibes breeders there are out there, she's strictly doing it for the money!


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## xxshaelxx (Mar 8, 2010)

Corgi, about how many times would you say it's ethical to breed a bitch? Just curious, because I know you know WAAAAAAAAY more about it than me. :biggrin: I just said 2-3 times, because that's what my old trainer and her mother would say, and her mother bred and showed Sibes. Also, what about different breeds? Does it matter between those?

Whiteleo, she's totally doing it for the money. She just recently upped her prices as well! For a pet registered dog, she sells them for $1200, and for full registry, I think it's $2,400!!! And most of these dogs go to pet homes. I'm sure that 90% of her litters aren't good enough for show stock, especially considering she doesn't show "anymore," and she never showed her bitches, just the dogs.


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## whiteleo (Sep 7, 2008)

Most bull terrier breeders I know Might do 1 breeding a year if that: they are very, very particular about who they sell their puppies to, mostly people who show or are doing some other kind of work with them like agility, tracking or such.

The breeders (or can't really call them breeders) that I got my female from did 1 litter a year for 3 years then fixed both the male and female and that was all they had, but I don't think they liked the pressure that our bull terrier club put on them to take back their puppies that would come into rescue although they did help place a few. 

It's a tough business being a responsible ethical breeder but I think for some breeds it's much easier.


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## CorgiPaws (Mar 31, 2009)

xxshaelxx said:


> Corgi, about how many times would you say it's ethical to breed a bitch?


I would say as a general rule about 3 times for a female. Males can breed every other day through their prime years (2-6) though of course no ethical breeder would be doing that! But again, this is a rule of thumb, not written in stone. I would question a breeder A LOT of they were having more than that. For example, Annie came from a 4th litter. Her momma was an exceptional welper, loved caring for pups, and her breeder really wanted a female out of her to carry on the line. (she had only previously produced one female prior, but not of breeding quality) Her 11 years of breeding experience and her knowledge of the particular bitch told her for THAT dog it would be okay. (momma was spayed after this litter, though)




xxshaelxx said:


> Also, what about different breeds? Does it matter between those?


Are you asking if the "rules" are different for different breeds? I would say yes, but it would still depend on the individual dog. Some breeds are notoriously good moms (Goldens, Cockers, Boxers, etc) but others, particularly breeds that have higher rate of c-section deliveries, take motherhood a bit harder as a whole. (Bulldogs, pugs, bostons, etc.) so I would say for those breeds, I would be exceptionally careful of frequent breeding practices. BUT, an ethical breeder will know her dogs, and know how much they can each handle. That being said, when you're breeding that many dogs, and having that many litters, there's just no way you're being careful about it. There's no way to know the females on an individual basis when it comes to whelping and recovery, because rather than tend to a recovering bitch, you'd be focused on the next one in labor. 



xxshaelxx said:


> She just recently upped her prices as well! For a pet registered dog, she sells them for $1200, and for full registry, I think it's $2,400!!!


It is unethical for a breeder to charge extra for full registration, just as it's unethical to sell a pet wuality dog on full registration to begin with. That being said, it is considered acceptable to charge more for "show potential" and acceptable to send that dog on full registration.... but the papers themselves should not be charged anything for. Does that make sense?



xxshaelxx said:


> And most of these dogs go to pet homes. I'm sure that 90% of her litters aren't good enough for show stock, especially considering she doesn't show "anymore," and she never showed her bitches, just the dogs.


I don't think there's anything wrong with that necessarily. Again, in THIS situation, I do think this breeder is unethical for many reasons, but speaking in general terms, a breeder showing her stock doesn't impress me any more than ones who don't. I'll be honest. I'm not intending to show my corgis much if at all. But I DO know my breed standard backwards, forwards, and upside down, and hope that I can determine the quality of my own dogs for myself, without some AKC judge holding them more against his preference than the actual standard anyway. That being said, I do intend to have a good relationship with an experienced Corgi handler to help me in the beginning. 



I don't hold every single breeder to the same exact standard, but I DO expect to see health testing, of course, and I do expect to see a lot of thought and care put into each and every litter. I expect to see a careful placement process, and lifelong support. I expect to see NO MORE than 3, (MAYBE 4 for breeds that have generally very small litters) litters per year, and females NEVER bred more than 4 times in their lifetime, with that obviously not being the case for every female in their program. I expect a breeder to be able to tell me exactly what kind of welper the mom is if it's not her first litter, and how she recovered the time before. it sounds like this breeder can hardly tell a dog's head from its tail, because she's up to her elbows in overpriced puppies. It's a shame really because it's breeders like this that cast a dark shadow over even the breeders with the best of intentions, working so hard to produce healthy pups and place them in only the best homes.


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## xxshaelxx (Mar 8, 2010)

CorgiPaws said:


> I would say as a general rule about 3 times for a female. Males can breed every other day through their prime years (2-6) though of course no ethical breeder would be doing that! But again, this is a rule of thumb, not written in stone. I would question a breeder A LOT of they were having more than that. For example, Annie came from a 4th litter. Her momma was an exceptional welper, loved caring for pups, and her breeder really wanted a female out of her to carry on the line. (she had only previously produced one female prior, but not of breeding quality) Her 11 years of breeding experience and her knowledge of the particular bitch told her for THAT dog it would be okay. (momma was spayed after this litter, though)


THis breeder has four males. One is inbred, so she doesn't breed him (another one of her mistake litters), one she's trying to sell and seldomly breeds. The other two, my dogs' dads, are bred so often, it's, like, "how can this be ethical!" I've seen about fifteen litters from Volcano, and about ten from Roadie, and that's not including all of the bitches she studs him out to. When I went down there to pick up Ryou, she had a bitch there with him for breeding. It's crazy! I can understand that he's a good dog, and absolutely GORGEOUS, but yeah...

Ansastasia Siberians Volcano

There he is.

Here's the other one:

Ansastasia Siberians Roadie



CorgiPaws said:


> Are you asking if the "rules" are different for different breeds? I would say yes, but it would still depend on the individual dog. Some breeds are notoriously good moms (Goldens, Cockers, Boxers, etc) but others, particularly breeds that have higher rated of cecerian deliveries, take motherhood a bit harder as a while. (Bulldogs, pugs, bostons, etc.) so I would say for those breeds, I would be exceptionally careful of frequent breeding practices. BUT, an ethical breeder will know her dogs, and know how much they can each handle. That being said, when you're breeding that many dogs, and having that many litters, there's just no way you're being careful about it. There's no way to know the females on an individual basis when it comes to whelping and recovery, because rather than tend to a recovering bitch, you'd be focused on the next one in labor.


That's what I thought, because I've heard of several different breeds being different, but I just wanted to make sure. 



CorgiPaws said:


> It is unethical for a breeder to charge extra for full registration, just as it's unethical to sell a pet wuality dog on full registration to begin with. That being said, it is considered acceptable to charge more for "show potential" and acceptable to send that god on full registration.... but the papers themselves should not be charged anything for. Does that make sense?


That makes perfect sense, and I have to agree with you there. I don't think ANY pet quality dog should be sold on a full registration, because that just encourages people to go out there and breed, but show quality dogs, or dogs of perfect standards, should be sold for higher prices, do discourage fellow breeders and/or make sure they go to a home that, if they are going to breed/show, it's going to be ethical, not just another BYB...



CorgiPaws said:


> I don't think there's anything wrong with that necessarily. Again, in THIS situation, I do think this breeder is unethical for many reasons, but speaking in general terms, a breeder showing her stock doesn't impress me any more than ones who don't. I'll be honest. I'm not intending to show my corgis much if at all. But I DO know my breed standard backwards, forwards, and upside down, and hope that I can determine the quality of my own dogs for myself, without some AKC judge holding them more against his preference than the actual standard anyway. That being said, I do intend to have a good relationship with an experienced Corgi handler to help me in the beginning.


Oh, I didn't mean so much of showing, as I meant that her dogs aren't really up to show quality standards/breed standards. haha. Sorry, I should have specified that more than just saying showing. XP My bad!



CorgiPaws said:


> I don't hold every single breeder to the same exact standard, but I DO expect to see health testing, of course, and I do expect to see a lot of thought and care put into each and every litter. I expect to see a careful placement process, and lifelong support. I expect to see NO MORE than 3, MAYBE 4 for breeds than have generally very small litters, litters per year, and females NEVER bred more than 4 times in their lifetime, with that obviously not being the case for every female in their program. I expect a breeder to be able to tell me exactly what kind of welper the mom is if it's not her first litter, and how she recovered the time before. it wounds like this breeder can hardly tell a dog's head from its tail, because she's up to her elbows in overpriced puppies. It's a shame really because it's breeders like this that cast a dark shadow over even the breeders with the best of intentions, working so hard to produce healthy pups and place them in only the best homes.


I don't even think her placement standards are that great. I mean, she'll take the pup back if the owner ever wants to get rid of it (it's actually in her contract), but she hardly asked me any questions.  I mean, I was just thinking that maybe it's because I told her everything she needed to know, but I realize now that I was in denial. I just wanted a puppy so bad that I was willing to shut off my good senses and make excuses instead...And I feel terrible about it, because I actually helped a completely unethical breeder...


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## xxshaelxx (Mar 8, 2010)

Well, here's the litter:

Kissy and Volcano's litter - a set on Flickr

It's good to know that mom and pups are all okay and didn't have any complications (that I know about). Especially since it's quite a big litter for a year old pup...

More of Volcano (Amaya's dad):

MaryAnne and Volcano - a set on Flickr

He's the red one.

More of Roadie (Ryou's dad):

Anastasia's Road To Glory (Roadie) - a set on Flickr


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## Penny & Maggie's Mom (May 19, 2009)

How sad!! Since clearances cannot be done until 2 years old, there is no way she has OFA hip, elbows, CERF eyes, thyroid etc. done. Most breed clubs have a code of ethics, and I know of no club which would condone such a breeding.


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## Penny & Maggie's Mom (May 19, 2009)

From the Siberian Husky Club of America, here is their ethical breeding statement: Guidelines for Ethical Breeding Practices Most clubs, have referrals to ethical breeders and can help you find one who is a member in good standing and who follows the code of ethics. If not... RUN!!!


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## danesandhorses (Sep 14, 2008)

I know some very reputable breeders who will have an accidental breeding. A reputable breeder will anounce the accident. Not hide it. Sometimes a female can have a silent heat etc. You will find these accidents few and far between. I also am a firm believer in not over breeding and agree that the female should only be bred 2-3 times and you should skip at least one heat in between. Sometimes a female will be bred the next heat if a stud is available at that time etc, but should never be bred back, to back to back. 

Ask for references, health tests, family history. If they have been shown, when was the last litter. Research the breeder and the stud and dam on line. Sometimes you will be amazed what you will find and this will avoid any surprises in the future. 

A breeder should offer a health guarantee with the option of puppy or money back. If you recieve a puppy with health issues why would you want another puppy from this litter? If they are not good at offering you the info. you want before purchasing the puppy don't rely on this breeder for life time breeder support. Wow! I could go on and on!

Back to topic, if this breeder isnt breeding all of these dogs to produce puppies for herself to show and better the breed I would run! That is a lot of dogs and obviously to much for her to handle with all of her "accidents".


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