# Trustworthy, quality pet foods?



## RachelsaurusRexU (Sep 4, 2010)

I know that quite a few of the members here have done a ton of research, including calling and writing to various companies and asking tons of questions about their products. I'm currently writing a large health and nutrition portion for my rescue's website, and I'd like some assistance! If you could please help me by posting food recommendations, whether they be brands or just specific formulas, and also any specific reasons why you recommend that company or food it would be VERY much appreciated! I am looking for both 'super premium' foods, and affordable 'bang for your buck' foods, and pretty much anything in between. If you know an approximate price per pound, that would be a bonus! Thank you in advance!


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## shellbell (Sep 24, 2011)

I no longer feed kibble, but if I did, I would feed Fromm. It is the only company I trust. Never had any recalls, and they own their own manufacturing plant. Been around for a long time too. They also use good, quality ingredients. Customer service is excellent, from my experience. Their econcomical brand is Fromm Gold (not sure of the price), and the Four Star Line ranges in price from about $55-$70, depending on if you use grain free or not.


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## Bergy (Oct 14, 2011)

I second Fromm,
We switched my Lab from Earthborn over to Fromm. She can't wait until it's time to eat (I know she's a Lab) and her stools look good too. In fact we use kibble as her training treats and she loves it. When we we reserching I too called Fromms up and they were very friendly and helpfull. (not earthborn) I like the fact that they use local ingrediants and pre and pro biotics as well. We currently feed the LBP gold but will be rotating to the 4 star soon.


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## monkeys23 (Dec 8, 2010)

Champion products or Fromm. Never tried Fromm, but have heard nothing but good about them.

Wellness Core is the one thing my whacko cat does well on. I'd like to try switching to raw with her someday though.


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## KittyKat (Feb 11, 2011)

I like Champion, their food is a great quality and all they make is dog food. =)

Plus its made in Canada.


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## chowder (Sep 7, 2008)

I know a lot of people are very much against Evo since they were bought by P&G, BUT..... when I was first looking for a food for Chelsy and she had such horrible colitis and allergies it was the one food that she could eat and actually thrived on. They were quick to answer my emails, _didn't have a huge list of exotic ingredients_, and had a high meat content. When my son got his 1 pound Chihuahua puppy that kept having hypoglycemic episodes, we put it on EVO small bites kibble and the puppy thrived on it and never had another episode. So, I have nothing but good to say about the food. 

I continue to get a lot of surveys from the company asking my opinion on how they can improve their foods or how I feel about any changes they may consider making. So they still seem to value long time customer opinions.


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## PDXdogmom (Jun 30, 2010)

I attach different attributes to different formulas. For instance:

Dogs with sensitive tummies or allergies needing simple formulas: California Natural puppy formulas (adult versions too low in protein, IMO)
If you want formulas with low ash %: Fromm's products
Formulas with no grains or potatoes: Natural Instinct (uses tapioca)
All life stages food with moderate protein: the Acana grain-free with Pacifica my favorite.
Most bang for the buck without egregious ingredients: Healthwise (by Natura) at about $1 per lb.


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## RachelsaurusRexU (Sep 4, 2010)

What about things like sourcing and denaturing? Or using fresh meats instead of/in addition to meat meals? Anyone have info on specific companies/brands/foods and those things?


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## imthemonkey (Aug 8, 2011)

Fromm, Horizon, and Champion.


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## kevin bradley (Aug 9, 2009)

In general, for me... I kind of bucket foods into a couple groups... 

1. Foods that check out from an ingredient perspective--there are so many foods that are reasonably good to excellent from a sheer ingredient list. Lots of named meat sources, minimal to no grains, no ethoxyquin, etc... Diamond(I think Diamond has gone Ethox free but don't quote me on this for sure) has lots of priced right options...in fact, I've found nothing close to them in terms of value. Gosh, there are so many foods in this group that are great on paper...TOTW, Merrick, Canidae, Earthborn, etc.... too many to list. 

2. Then you have this other group, that in my opinion, goes above and beyond in terms of ingredients --AND-- company values and how they do business. Champion and Honest Kitchen come to mind. I'd probably throw Wellness in there also, maybe just a notch lower. Its just a "feel" thing for me as I certainly haven't toured their meat sourcing facilities but as crazy as this might sound, everything I've seen, heard, read... just points to the fact that they just do things a bit differently. Uncompromised would be my term for them. I've also heard very, very positive comments about companies that some might not consider like Holistic Select, Avoderm, and Castor & Pollux.... most of the comments stem from the lady who wrote the Dog Food Project. I should note that she places a TON of weight in how transparent a company is in terms of their ingredients and their sources/quality, etc... any sign of deceipt and she isn't very forgiving. 

But in fairness, I had Natura in the #2 group for awhile.... right or wrong, I now have them in my #1 group.

NOTE-no science necessarily behind my comments. Just my intuition if you will.


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## kevin bradley (Aug 9, 2009)

RachelsaurusRexU said:


> What about things like sourcing and denaturing? Or using fresh meats instead of/in addition to meat meals? Anyone have info on specific companies/brands/foods and those things?


Rachel, I believe Honest Kitchen uses free range chicken in their foods. Not a meal. But I believe the negativity around a real meat source like chicken(typically mostly water in a conventional dry food) is not relevent as the chicken is dehydrated.


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## CavePaws (Jan 25, 2011)

These are foods I regularly recommend:
Orijen All varieties
EVO
Wellness CORE 
Acana Grain-free
TOTW
Before Grain
Acana Grain inclusive
Natures Domain Grain Free varieties **best bang for the buck imo**

When giving recommendations to anyone, I always say, that even with the best kibble like Orijen, I feel it is necessary to supplement the diet with cooked meats or 96% meat canned foods. This is why, with clients who are on a tight budget, I always suggest Natures Domain w/ supplementation. I see countless dogs switched to this food, as people who come into our classes are normally on SD, Pedigree, Beneful (etc.) and have not had anyone come in saying they had issues. Of course, I normally shoot for people switching their dogs onto Orijen, CORE, or EVO. But, that is simply unrealistic for a lot of my clients.

I only know of one place to get ND and that is Costco...All the other foods are available at local stores around here...I guess it really depends on what is in your area or if they want to order online!


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## KittyKat (Feb 11, 2011)

RachelsaurusRexU said:


> What about things like sourcing and denaturing? Or using fresh meats instead of/in addition to meat meals? Anyone have info on specific companies/brands/foods and those things?


Champion pet foods (makers of Origin and Acana) does not use denatured meats. All of their meat is sourced from Canada and delivered fresh to their facilities. They use fresh meats and meat meals. Their dog foods are 100% China-free. Their fish meals are never preserved with Ethoxyquin. Champion’s ingredients and foods are never preserved with BHA/BHT or any other chemical preservative. Their chicken is 100% free-run.


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## Bergy (Oct 14, 2011)

Fromm's Sources;
Naturally formulated with fresh Wisconsin duck, fresh chicken, fresh lamb, fish, whole eggs & real cheese. In addition, we enhance this recipe with probiotics to aid digestion and salmon oil for a healthy coat. This product contains no corn and no wheat.

◦Fresh Wisconsin Duck
◦Fresh Hand-Trimmed USDA Chicken
◦Fresh Low-Ash Lamb
◦Real Wisconsin Cheddar Cheese
◦Chicken Cartilage Rich in Natural Glucosamine
◦Prebiotics & Probiotics to Aid Digestion
◦Optimum Omega Fatty Acids Ratio
◦No Corn and No Wheat


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## RachelsaurusRexU (Sep 4, 2010)

All very helpful! Thank you so much!


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## Feedingtime (Oct 21, 2011)

KittyKat said:


> Champion pet foods (makers of Origin and Acana) does not use denatured meats. All of their meat is sourced from Canada and delivered fresh to their facilities. They use fresh meats and meat meals. Their dog foods are 100% China-free. Their fish meals are never preserved with Ethoxyquin. Champion’s ingredients and foods are never preserved with BHA/BHT or any other chemical preservative. Their chicken is 100% free-run.[/QUO
> 
> Really? Orijen uses "fresh" meat meals from Canada? I don't think so.


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## Feedingtime (Oct 21, 2011)

I think you are all nice people and want to do whats best for your dog but how can you comment on these foods. What do you really know about the ingredients or how they are made?

These are all just mass produced consumer products. I can name at least a half dozen foods that are far superior and made by people that actually know about dogs rather than know how to steal money from naive consumers.

Sorry to say but you all are getting suckered.


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## whiteleo (Sep 7, 2008)

Feedingtime said:


> I think you are all nice people and want to do whats best for your dog but how can you comment on these foods. What do you really know about the ingredients or how they are made?
> 
> These are all just mass produced consumer products. I can name at least a half dozen foods that are far superior and made by people that actually know about dogs rather than know how to steal money from naive consumers.
> 
> Sorry to say but you all are getting suckered.



And who are you to know better than people who have toured the plant?


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## kevin bradley (Aug 9, 2009)

though I don't like your tone, there is some truth to what you are saying.

My difficulty is this.... at some point, you have to let go as a consumer. You have to just say... "I've done as much homework as I can on this company and really cannot do much more." I mean this because unless you can infiltrate their entire manufacturing process, from all sourced ingredients to finished product, how does ANYONE KNOW? In FACT, you could even get real crazy with having to KNOW about this food or that food that you go back and monitor the Cow or Chicken which is being used in your Dogs food. Hell, why stop there? What about the GRASS that the Cow or Chicken is eating? What if they weren't fed correctly? How about the WATER they drank? Was it purified? I mean, I want to make sure my Dog isn't eating the meat from an animal that was drinking polluted acid water. Even the most ardent Raw feeders would be hardpressed to take things to this degree.

My point is this... As consumers and those who care about our Dogs, at some point, we have to make some educated "guesses" and best "hunches"... some based on nothing more than how a company sounds in their marketing(yeah, I said it). 

Unless you are willing to grow your own animals, on your own land, using grains to feed them from your own soil.... you never really KNOW that everything is perfect. 

Kind of a crazy way to live.


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## wags (Jan 31, 2009)

Well I really like champion Orijen ,Acana. I also like wellness core. I am looking at others though too which I have in the past and may use again, BUT,I have not used all these but they do come to mind~. Instinct, Fromm,, Go Natural, I use Evangers wet and I picked up Earthborn for woohoo $1.27 a can now that here's a deal!~, Merrick (I have used their brand Grain free but with the mom and pop store I go to not selling it anymore because of the recalls on their treats I am doubting the brand at times). I cant think of anything else right now. Oh wait I use to years ago use canidae before 2007 shoot a longtime ago! And heck use to use~ back ~way back in the day, a lot of horrible kibble shoot I was a sucker for a pretty bag~ THEN~ Learned to read there ingredient list!!!!!


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## wags (Jan 31, 2009)

Feedingtime said:


> Sorry to say but you all are getting suckered.


Sheesh so harsh.......... I think we are doing the best we can ,with the knowledge we are given, by the manufactures ,and with doing all the research we can into companies. We try to gather as much information that is given to us as customers/consumers about the products we choose to purchase . Well then put sucker in front of the wags title!


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## Feedingtime (Oct 21, 2011)

kevin bradley said:


> though I don't like your tone, there is some truth to what you are saying.
> 
> My difficulty is this.... at some point, you have to let go as a consumer. You have to just say... "I've done as much homework as I can on this company and really cannot do much more." I mean this because unless you can infiltrate their entire manufacturing process, from all sourced ingredients to finished product, how does ANYONE KNOW? In FACT, you could even get real crazy with having to KNOW about this food or that food that you go back and monitor the Cow or Chicken which is being used in your Dogs food. Hell, why stop there? What about the GRASS that the Cow or Chicken is eating? What if they weren't fed correctly? How about the WATER they drank? Was it purified? I mean, I want to make sure my Dog isn't eating the meat from an animal that was drinking polluted acid water. Even the most ardent Raw feeders would be hardpressed to take things to this degree.
> 
> ...


My advice to all of you is if the food isn't made by Ohio Pet Foods or, second (tie), Chenango Valley Pet Foods & Fromm, don't waste your money on it. The difference in quality of ingredients is dramatic. For example, Wellness S5 Chicken has ash of 6.5%, that is very high for a 22% protein food. I know of several foods with 32% - 35% protein with substantially less ash even on a gross basis.

Stick with smaller regional brands made by people that are real experts in animal care, and foods that are used and tested in competition, even if you just have an average companion animal.

I wont buy any food sold at Petco or Petsmart because in order to fill that demand corners have to be cut. Plain and simple. What amazes me is how many people think TOTW and the Costco foods are good quality. These are among the worst on the market. Any food that is a "price-point" food will use the cheapest ingredients available, no matter where they come from.


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## kevin bradley (Aug 9, 2009)

I'm deleting this post as I probably stouped to a low level when writing it. 

my apologies.


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## whiteleo (Sep 7, 2008)

I know people who have personally been to the Orijen, Acana plant which is made by Champion. I would take this persons word as to what he saw. And also because you highly recommend Annamaet , I think your blowing smoke up our A**


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## Feedingtime (Oct 21, 2011)

kevin bradley said:


> yeah, you guys sure know how to treat animals in Ohio. Wonderful week there. I have the utmost trust in anything from that State.
> 
> Low blow maybe...
> 
> Now I know your post is bs. I get so sick of this crap out on boards.



Sorry you feel that way but it is clear you don't know much about pet food ingredients or production.


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## Feedingtime (Oct 21, 2011)

Annamaet is easily one of the top 3 or 4 foods on the market. Every ingredient is the best available, tested constantly, used by professionals and tested on the most stressed dogs anywhere, sled dogs. Do some research into who developed the food. Do you know Annamaet Ultra is the most copied food on the market? There was no such thing as a performance food before that came out 25 years ago. It also one of the most popular foods for competitve dogs outside sledding. Did you know Option is the most recommended food by allergists for serious allergies? Did you know that even working dogs thrive on the grain-frees, unlike every other GF on the market?

You are clearly just a label reader. Others I would recommend are Dr. Tims, Verus, HHE black bag & Best Breed.


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## kevin bradley (Aug 9, 2009)

you are clearly agenda driven. 

Sad, some of us would give your foods a shot had you not had the "this food sucks, mine is great" attitude. You wreck the very brands you want to push when you take this approach.


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## RachelsaurusRexU (Sep 4, 2010)

Feedingtime said:


> My advice to all of you is if the food isn't made by Ohio Pet Foods or, second (tie), Chenango Valley Pet Foods & Fromm, don't waste your money on it. The difference in quality of ingredients is dramatic. For example, Wellness S5 Chicken has ash of 6.5%, that is very high for a 22% protein food. I know of several foods with 32% - 35% protein with substantially less ash even on a gross basis.
> 
> Stick with smaller regional brands made by people that are real experts in animal care, and foods that are used and tested in competition, even if you just have an average companion animal.
> 
> I wont buy any food sold at Petco or Petsmart because in order to fill that demand corners have to be cut. Plain and simple. What amazes me is how many people think TOTW and the Costco foods are good quality. These are among the worst on the market. Any food that is a "price-point" food will use the cheapest ingredients available, no matter where they come from.


I don't think this crap belongs in my thread. I'm looking for helpful suggestions on making pet food recommendations to people who may not know any better than feeding garbage, because I want the animals that leave my rescue to be healthy in their new homes. I'm looking for affordable options because I don't expect everyone to be able to afford foods like Ziwipeak, or even Orijen and I'm sure not going to turn down an otherwise good home. If you want to bash companies, by all means, write to them and tell them how you feel. If you want nothing more than to be condescending, belittle and bait other members into arguments, go start your own damn thread.


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## DogLuver (Oct 19, 2011)

Wow...I'm a part of many other forums, and some are scary....because people are so mean to eachother....this forum is by far the worst I've seen so far .....I'm kinda scared to get involved. I was looking so forward to discussing with you guys, as I'm very interested in canine nutrition. Sorry, but some of you need to be more open minded, and pass on as much information as you can WITHOUT bashing other people, or their decisions, or opinions. Gee wiz.

I am very interested in what everyone has to say about all these dog foods, and would appreciate some real information (for those of you that HAVE provided helpful information, thank you so much!) as apposed to having to surf through all the arguments and bashing!

I don't want to sound like a jerk, or trying to boss you guys around, but from an outside opinion, it's just not helpful as it can be.

Back to topic: I've never been to a dog food plant, so it's simply my opinion from what I've heard and researched...but I believe Orijen/Acana (Champion) has a good grasp on doing things right. I am feeding Orijen/Acana so I sure hope I'm right. Sometimes it's just easier to believe they're as good a company as they say they are.


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## RachelsaurusRexU (Sep 4, 2010)

DogLuver said:


> Wow...I'm a part of many other forums, and some are scary....because people are so mean to eachother....this forum is by far the worst I've seen so far .....I'm kinda scared to get involved. I was looking so forward to discussing with you guys, as I'm very interested in canine nutrition. Sorry, but some of you need to be more open minded, and pass on as much information as you can WITHOUT bashing other people, or their decisions, or opinions. Gee wiz.
> 
> I am very interested in what everyone has to say about all these dog foods, and would appreciate some real information (for those of you that HAVE provided helpful information, thank you so much!) as apposed to having to surf through all the arguments and bashing!
> 
> ...


This is exactly what I'm afraid of. I'm going to be referring potential adopters here because I have found this forum to be unbelievably helpful and informative with my own dogs. I don't want these people to be discouraged and scared off by all the bickering and BS that's gone on lately!

DogLuver, stick around. Most of the members here are wonderful, I promise.


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## kevin bradley (Aug 9, 2009)

DL,

Some of us are angry because we've seen this guy before. You said very well what I attempted to say earlier. You do the best you can to research a company, believe what they are doing to be good for your Dog.... and at some point, you have to let go and say "I have to have some element of trust in them."


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## Feedingtime (Oct 21, 2011)

kevin bradley said:


> you are clearly agenda driven.
> 
> Sad, some of us would give your foods a shot had you not had the "this food sucks, mine is great" attitude. You wreck the very brands you want to push when you take this approach.


They are not "my brands" I am just telling you that what you think are good foods are just overpriced and totally average or downright dangerous, like private label foods especially. Don't get suckered that is all I am saying.


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## kevin bradley (Aug 9, 2009)

Ok, I'm going to be open minded to listen to you...

Can you at least give us some information as to why some of the foods we think are ok are actually "dangerous?"


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## nikkiluvsu15 (Jun 9, 2010)

If I ever had to put Harleigh back on kibble it would be Back to Basics, no doubt. That was the *best* she's ever done on a kibble, plus she went absolutely crazy for it (more than usual).

I also like Nature's Variety and Fromm.


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## kevin bradley (Aug 9, 2009)

Feedingtime said:


> My advice to all of you is if the food isn't made by Ohio Pet Foods or, second (tie), Chenango Valley Pet Foods & Fromm, don't waste your money on it. The difference in quality of ingredients is dramatic. For example, Wellness S5 Chicken has ash of 6.5%, that is very high for a 22% protein food. I know of several foods with 32% - 35% protein with substantially less ash even on a gross basis.


alright, I've been doing my research, FT. You have me really confused. You slam Wellness for having too high Ash(6.5%) relative to its protein percentage. You like Fromm, right? Then explain this to me please... We're all willing to listen out here but when you start throwing around inconsistent information, it detracts from your credibility. 

Fromm Classic Adult Dog Food Guaranteed Analysis
Protein 23% Min
Fat 15% Min
Fiber 4% Max
Moisture 10% Max
*Ash 6.5% Max* ----- HUH???
Omega 6 Fatty Acids 2.4% Min
Omega 3 Fatty Acids 0.4% Min

For the record, I like Fromm as a company and food. I'm a bit leery as to why they ever farmed out their wet food production to China(they have since ceased this)... I just could never imagine Champion doing such a thing.


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## Feedingtime (Oct 21, 2011)

kevin bradley said:


> alright, I've been doing my research, FT. You have me really confused. You slam Wellness for having too high Ash(6.5%) relative to its protein percentage. You like Fromm, right? Then explain this to me please... We're all willing to listen out here but when you start throwing around inconsistent information, it detracts from your credibility.
> 
> Fromm Classic Adult Dog Food Guaranteed Analysis
> Protein 23% Min
> ...


Fromm is a superior food to Wellness and your ash example is flawed for two reasons 1) Fromm Lists Ash as a Maximum, whereas Wellness was a tested level. I would guess that Fromms is actually lower than what the bag says & 2) You would expect a food with Duck and/or ground chicken necks and backs to have more ash than one with Chicken Meal. 

My comment on ash was intended to be an apple to apple comparison, chicken vs chicken. Wellness is a big box store brand now. It would be impossible for the company to acquire the quality of chicken meal used by the smaller brands. 

Fromm makes solid companion animal foods. I am curious as to why you view Champions integrity so highly. Don't you think Champion should say on the bag or website that its chicken & turkey meals are sourced from the United States, which they are. How many recalls has Champion had?


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## meggels (May 30, 2010)

nikkiluvsu15 said:


> If I ever had to put Harleigh back on kibble it would be Back to Basics, no doubt. That was the *best* she's ever done on a kibble, plus she went absolutely crazy for it (more than usual).
> 
> I also like Nature's Variety and Fromm.


Have you seen Back to Basics new formulas that apparently have a ton of organ meat? My dog food guy is obsessed...


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## CavePaws (Jan 25, 2011)

meggels said:


> Have you seen Back to Basics new formulas that apparently have a ton of organ meat? My dog food guy is obsessed...


A lady tried to hand a pamphlet about it to me in the pet store I buy Liams orijen from, lol. I had to tell her I feed my dogs a raw diet consisting of meat, organs, and bones.


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## nikkiluvsu15 (Jun 9, 2010)

meggels said:


> Have you seen Back to Basics new formulas that apparently have a ton of organ meat? My dog food guy is obsessed...


Yeah, that is the one I fed. They are coming out with just a Duck formula that I think she would love. When she was on it I fed the Turkey formula. She went crazy for it... And from what I've heard many dogs have that reaction to it!


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## meggels (May 30, 2010)

nikkiluvsu15 said:


> Yeah, that is the one I fed. They are coming out with just a Duck formula that I think she would love. When she was on it I fed the Turkey formula. She went crazy for it... And from what I've heard many dogs have that reaction to it!



My guy is suggesting it to a LOT of customers, saying it's as good as Orijen, if not better....


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## nikkiluvsu15 (Jun 9, 2010)

meggels said:


> My guy is suggesting it to a LOT of customers, saying it's as good as Orijen, if not better....


Harleigh didn't do very good on Orijen, neither have a few other Labs I know. Not sure what it was about it. Not sure if I mentioned it, but her poop was almost as good as it is on raw. So for here it definitely was better than Orijen, but I'm not sure about other dogs.


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## stajbs (Jun 5, 2010)

Did somebody say Annamaet?? Just what is your agenda this time I wonder??


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## Javadoo (May 23, 2011)

Fromm is the company I trust the most.
If I had to pick on company to buy dog food from it would be Fromm. (I am a rotation feeder so I feed a few different brands.).


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## kevin bradley (Aug 9, 2009)

Javadoo said:


> Fromm is the company I trust the most.
> If I had to pick on company to buy dog food from it would be Fromm. (I am a rotation feeder so I feed a few different brands.).


I agree. Fromm seems to be a solid food from a very respectable company.


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## Unosmom (May 3, 2009)

Rachel- I think its a great idea to educate the potential adopted on various types kibble, but as important as ingredients and company reputation are, I would think that majority of people would be more influenced by affordability and product availability. I think Orijen, Acana, Horizon, Honest Kitchen are all great brands, but can be cost restrictive to a lot of people, so I'm more inclined to recommend Taste of the Wild, Canidae, Healthwise, Blue Buffalo, Kirkland, etc. I would also mention that better quality usually means higher calorie and usually more biolavailable resulting in less consumption and waste. So even though it may cost little more initially, it'll last longer. 

I noticed that sometimes when I try to tell people about nutrition and label reading, their eyes tend to glaze over and I lose them after few sentences. Things that may seem like common sense to me and you, are not to an average consumer. So if you can make it as simple as possible, more people would be on board with it. I would also forward them to the dog food advisor site which is very helpful. 

I think I already posted this on another thread, but I find this paper to be very helpful and often give it to my clients when I pet-sit, its a very easy to understand guide to dog nutrition:
Complete and Final.doc - 4shared.com - document sharing - download


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## cprcheetah (Jul 14, 2010)

If you are recommending them to people who will be rescuing dogs I would go with like a 'BEST' 'BETTER' 'GOOD' type document or handout as a lot of pet owners are not going to want to feed things like Orijen which can be cost restrictive, granted it would be ideal if they would but maybe offer suggestions on things they can get at local petstores but 'good' brands, if that makes sense. Things like Blue, Wellness, Natural Balance, Orijen, Innova, Solid Gold, Nature's Variety TOTW, and things like that, then for 'budget' like Kirkland, Diamond Naturals, Nature's Domain. While they may not be 'the best' of the best and it's certainly not Raw, they are WORLDS above other brands out there like Purina, Science Diet, Eukanuba, which the vet will cram down their thraots. I like what Unosmom posted and that is actually a handout my dad/vet started using in his practice to help educating pet owners. It helped a lot. Just remember that while you will find these dogs good homes, you have to keep things readily available to them. JMO.

FROMM is an excellent food, but it is not available ANYWHERE in my state....so I would have to ship it in...which would be cost prohibitive.


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## RachelsaurusRexU (Sep 4, 2010)

Heather and Victoria, I agree 110%! I will most definitely be including these affordable options. Victoria, I love the link you provided. It's simple and straightforward. I will definitely be using that!


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## Unosmom (May 3, 2009)

youre welcome


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## dr tim (Mar 27, 2011)

Have to ask one thing here; how can you recc any Diamond product or private label made there after their recalls and proven dog fatalities due to to poor quality controls that ultimately caused the issues several years ago? It wasn't just one incident but several.


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## kathylcsw (Jul 31, 2011)

The Diamond recall was in 2007 and they have had no issues since that time. Look at how often human food is recalled for contamination. Unfortunately it is a fact of life for humans and other animals. I think that they have clearly made improvements in quality control to have had no further incidents in almost 5 years now. It would be impossible to eat anything and have 100% confidence that it had no contaminants of any kind. Every time you put anything in your body you take a chance.


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## kevin bradley (Aug 9, 2009)

Indeed. I'm not a fan of what happened in 2007.

But in all honesty, your Dog is probably in far greater danger of dying on the way to the petstore in a car accident than from any Diamond foods.


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## dr tim (Mar 27, 2011)

Your call, guys. If you say judge a food by the recalls, I guess the hundreds of dog deaths in 2007 are well in the rear view mirror. I will not drive my pets to the pet store, either, due to the possibility of death.

Come on, Kevin, I thought you had more sense.


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## kevin bradley (Aug 9, 2009)

Tim, I've said before that Diamond does concern me. 

But by the tone of some posts(not just yours), you would think that Dogs are dying every day from Diamond. Also, didn't the recall from 07 encompass a BUNCH of different companies, not just Diamond? I haven't heard of any issues since.... 

But overall, I don't disagree... there are probably better options.


I'm the first to admit, I've been a bit laxed on assesing the integrity of a company... its just a damn hard measurement. Example-- I honestly love everything I read/hear about Fromm. No recalls ever. Local company. However, what happens if they EVER have an issue. Do we just toss them into the "unethical" bucket. 

People rib some of us for just being "label readers." But unless I can pay for lab tests and undercover spies at manufacturing facilities, how can I measure the ethical standards of a company...outside of a recall that happened years ago?


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## dr tim (Mar 27, 2011)

Diamond only was aflatoxin contamination causing deaths, about 400 confirmed ones but many more suspected, just not reported.The melamine struck many companies, Diamond included. I saw those dogs. I also saw the melamine cases come through as well-very sad. 

Just keep fighting the good fight for a food that is good for our pets. That is what I am trying to do, regardless of the brand one chooses-inform the owner so they can understand how a dog/cat works and then start to read that label as to what we should be looking for. Do some research but it is a very frustrating arena. How does one assess the integrity of a company? I would like to know.


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## kevin bradley (Aug 9, 2009)

dr tim said:


> Diamond only was aflatoxin contamination causing deaths, about 400 confirmed ones but many more suspected, just not reported.The melamine struck many companies, Diamond included. I saw those dogs. I also saw the melamine cases come through as well-very sad.
> 
> Just keep fighting the good fight for a food that is good for our pets. That is what I am trying to do, regardless of the brand one chooses-inform the owner so they can understand how a dog/cat works and then start to read that label as to what we should be looking for. Do some research but it is a very frustrating arena. How does one assess the integrity of a company? I would like to know.



Can't disagree with anything there, Tim. 

I'm going to try your line of foods on my guys in the future. Looking forward to it.


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## buddy97 (Mar 29, 2010)

Feedingtime said:


> Fromm is a superior food to Wellness and your ash example is flawed for two reasons 1) Fromm Lists Ash as a Maximum, whereas Wellness was a tested level. I would guess that Fromms is actually lower than what the bag says & 2) You would expect a food with Duck and/or ground chicken necks and backs to have more ash than one with Chicken Meal.
> 
> My comment on ash was intended to be an apple to apple comparison, chicken vs chicken. Wellness is a big box store brand now. It would be impossible for the company to acquire the quality of chicken meal used by the smaller brands.
> 
> Fromm makes solid companion animal foods. I am curious as to why you view Champions integrity so highly. Don't you think Champion should say on the bag or website that its chicken & turkey meals are sourced from the United States, which they are. How many recalls has Champion had?


arrggghh. those of us who have been here a while most likely know who _feedingtime_ is. did he get banned under his old moniker?

ive been gone over a year (i think).

come back to the same old stuff of someone with an agenda (anti champion foods) trying to argue using generalizations like "wellness is a big box store brand now"....that doesnt preclude them from sourcing from the same place as fromm.


"Fromm is a superior food to Wellness and your ash example is flawed for two reasons 1) Fromm Lists Ash as a Maximum, whereas Wellness was a tested level. I would guess that Fromms is actually lower than what the bag says"....i would guess isnt a good argument. email them and ask them what the measured amount is, then you wont have to guess.


ive never had any problem having champion tell me where they source there chicken meal, which is by the way the lowest ash chicken meal that i know of if that is such a concern.


"beef as the first ingredient"......this is a claim on one of fromms grain free offerings (which btw looks like something the vegetarian crowd would like to feed their dogs). problem is the dogs dont get to eat the food before it gets processed. this is one of the tricks used by the likes of iams/science diet, etc...it is a really offensively deceptive practice that should offend those of us who have done even the most rudimentary research of doog food.

fromm doesnt even offer any grainless, higher protein kibbles that stand up to wellness frain free line, so i fail to see how fromm is superior to wellness.



looking at the big picture...the facilities and the transparency at those facilities, the ingredients, the sources, the protein levels (and understanding it is difficult to get close to 40% protein without using enough animal protein sources), the level of protein derived from animal sources, the variety of grain free offerings, their history.....

if someone pressed me to offer one company from which to buy dry processed dog food, it would have to be champions orijen.

of course, there are alot of foods out there that would be a great step up from all the crap at the grocery store, but if i had to enter a debate support my arguments, im going to be able to best support them with champion.


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## cast71 (Sep 16, 2010)

buddy97 said:


> arrggghh. those of us who have been here a while most likely know who _feedingtime_ is. did he get banned under his old moniker?
> 
> ive been gone over a year (i think)
> 
> .


Yep salty is back;0( and yeah he got banned. Welcome back buddy;0)


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## cast71 (Sep 16, 2010)

dr tim said:


> Have to ask one thing here; how can you recc any Diamond product or private label made there after their recalls and proven dog fatalities due to to poor quality controls that ultimately caused the issues several years ago? It wasn't just one incident but several.


All the diamond products that have been recommended on this thread, were not involved in any of the recalls. This has been debated over and over. Use the search feature and you will find old threads. Since than, diamond has invested alot of time and money, into computer controlled quality control systems. They did this to try and take there name out of the dump. I have no problem using or recommending diamond naturals or totw. I think it's a great alternative for people on a tight budget;0)


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## Feedingtime (Oct 21, 2011)

It is amazing how many people get suckered by Champion paying more than $2lb for an average dog food. I really have to hand it to the Orijen marketing people but then again Americans are generally suckers, especially many dog owners. Bouncing from food to food like mental patients.


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## Feedingtime (Oct 21, 2011)

Diamond also had a recall of cat food after killing a bunch of cats because the vitamin pre-mix had no thiamin. It was never even put on the Diamond website. This was in the past 3 years I believe. The stuff is crap.

If you read the FDA report on the aflatoxin investigation much more was found.

Don't feed your dogs any food unless it comes from Ohio Pet Foods, Chenango Valley Pet Foods or the Fromm plant. I would especially be concerned about any food coming out of Canada.


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## cast71 (Sep 16, 2010)

Feedingtime said:


> Don't feed your dogs any food unless it comes from Ohio Pet Foods, Chenango Valley Pet Foods or the Fromm plant. I would especially be concerned about any food coming out of Canada.


You forgot to mention midwestern petfoods and your all mighty propac. Also calling people suckers and butt lickers, is just going to get you banned again. Pretty comical ahahahahahaha ;0)


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## Caty M (Aug 13, 2010)

Feedingtime said:


> Diamond also had a recall of cat food after killing a bunch of cats because the vitamin pre-mix had no thiamin. It was never even put on the Diamond website. This was in the past 3 years I believe. The stuff is crap.
> 
> If you read the FDA report on the aflatoxin investigation much more was found.
> 
> Don't feed your dogs any food unless it comes from Ohio Pet Foods, Chenango Valley Pet Foods or the Fromm plant. I would especially be concerned about any food coming out of Canada.


What's wrong with Canada? We have slightly higher quality control in food/drugs than the US does..


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## RachelsaurusRexU (Sep 4, 2010)

Feedingtime said:


> Diamond also had a recall of cat food after killing a bunch of cats because the vitamin pre-mix had no thiamin. It was never even put on the Diamond website. This was in the past 3 years I believe. The stuff is crap.
> 
> If you read the FDA report on the aflatoxin investigation much more was found.
> 
> Don't feed your dogs any food unless it comes from Ohio Pet Foods, Chenango Valley Pet Foods or the Fromm plant. I would especially be concerned about any food coming out of Canada.


GO AWAY. You're obnoxious.


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## Tobi (Mar 18, 2011)

Feedingtime said:


> It is amazing how many people get suckered by Champion paying more than $2lb for an average dog food. I really have to hand it to the Orijen marketing people but then again Americans are generally suckers, especially many dog owners. Bouncing from food to food like mental patients.
> 
> Champion butt lickers have some much invested emotionally they can't see the scam.
> 
> Very sad....well its your money suckers.


No... what is truly amazing is that every time you post something it aggravates more than a handful of people. You're coming off as abrasive, and very immature now... You haven't cited any sources for any of the things that you spout in ANY of your posts, people have asked you time and time again to cite something showing us that you're not just blowing smoke up our  and you fail every time to come through with anything viable except... "only buy X,Y,Z brand otherwise you're a sucker" I think it's sad that is your argument, and everybody that doesn't heed your advice is simply a sucker, and anybody that feeds champion foods is a champion butt licker... which is quite immature as well.
Please post something halfway productive instead of a bunch of garbage.


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## stajbs (Jun 5, 2010)

Feedingtime, I truly thought you were smarter than to behave in this manner. Never really saw you resort to name calling before, and admittedly I have not always been your greatest fan.


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## kevin bradley (Aug 9, 2009)

Kinda sad. I'm in the process of adding Fromm to my rotation. Having Feedtime(or whatever his name is) makes me start to hesitate on that decision.

Yeah, Orjien sucks. Sure. What a joke.


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## meggels (May 30, 2010)

Kevin, don't! I would love to add it to my hounds rotation....


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## kevin bradley (Aug 9, 2009)

don't worry Megs... Fromm is on the way.


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## meggels (May 30, 2010)

Even though I get 30lbs a month of free Natural Balance I'd like to add in a bag of Fromm every now and then for some different proteins....and it's a great food! 


Oddly, she's been doing GREAT on Natural Balance's Original Ultra formula.


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## wags (Jan 31, 2009)

Wait a minute here! How does this feedingtime person get away with that shameful 
kind of talk. That's disrepectful and uncalled for. Stop that 5th grade mentality . ADULT UP HERE!!!!!!!!!!SHAME ON YOU feedingtime.
Ps ~~~~yah I know I dont have to read it~~~~ but heck ~~~~I feed Orijen~~~~ and the only butt licking in this house is the dogs which is ummm like rare~ and YES I DO NOT LET THIS HAPPEN YUCK~ when I see it its a water spray!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## buddy97 (Mar 29, 2010)

Feedingtime said:


> I would especially be concerned about any food coming out of Canada.


did a hockey player kill your family when you were a child?

you seem to think champion has brainwashed people with marketing. i can tour their facilities, see their ingredients, and know from where they are sourced. marketing never entered the equation for me and im sure that is the case for many here who have chosen to feed their foods.

yet you have no problem supporting manufacturers in a country that has some more lax regulations on the industry than canada does.

btw, i assume those manufacturers/packers are all EU certified at the very least.


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## cprcheetah (Jul 14, 2010)

Dr Tim....just have a question for you. Do you still eat ground beef, turkey, Peanut Butter, Salad, Lettuce, Eggs, Milk, IceCream, Spinach? Those food items have all had recalls at least in the last year or so....so the same principle applies.....would you stop eating those products because of a recall where people got sick and/or died? Yes Diamond had some issues, but from what I've seen NOT having issues for 4 years is a pretty good track record, unlike foods like Nutro who are always in the news for recalls.


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## MollyWoppy (Mar 19, 2010)

I dunno. I personally will never forgive the companies involved in the melamine recall and will never, ever feed my cat or my dog any of those foods again. 
From what I've read, there were likely thousands of deaths, not counting the animals that were sickened, but it can't be confirmed because there wasn't a Government database where animal deaths could be registered. 
There were so many companies involved, every last one of them put profit before the health of thousands and thousands of loved animals by putting in their food the cheapest nastiest chemicals they could source. 
Mollie, a pup at the time, was eating one of the recalled brands. I trusted and paid that company to provide her with a balanced and healthy nutrition, not to put her health in jeopardy because of shareholders demanding higher profits. 
Which is specifically why I am on this forum today, there are very few companies I trust with my animals health now.


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## dr tim (Mar 27, 2011)

I guess actually working on the animals involved with the recalls and watching them die has soured me forever with those brands. I don't eat at Jack in the Box, either.


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## Feedingtime (Oct 21, 2011)

dr tim said:


> I guess actually working on the animals involved with the recalls and watching them die has soured me forever with those brands. I don't eat at Jack in the Box, either.



Anyone with a postive image of Diamond has not read the FDA report following the aflatoxin outbreak, moreover those people are also not aware of the recent recall on cat food that killed some cats or the unofficial recalls on TOTW over the past few years.

Feed at your own peril.


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## Scarlett_O' (May 19, 2011)

cprcheetah said:


> Dr Tim....just have a question for you. * Do you still eat ground beef, turkey, Peanut Butter, Salad, Lettuce, Eggs, Milk, IceCream, Spinach? * Those food items have all had recalls at least in the last year or so....so the same principle applies.....would you stop eating those products because of a recall where people got sick and/or died? Yes Diamond had some issues, but from what I've seen NOT having issues for 4 years is a pretty good track record, unlike foods like Nutro who are always in the news for recalls.


I would VERY much so like to re-ask these questions!!!


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## Feedingtime (Oct 21, 2011)

Scarlett_O' said:


> I would VERY much so like to re-ask these questions!!!


Posts like this are proof positive that habitual posters on this forum don't know much about what goes into many pet foods and how they are made.

Diamond is very good at creating price-point foods under the illusion they are high quality.

The record speaks for itself.

And you are wrong about 4 years. In September - November 2009, Diamond recalled cat food because it was lacking thiamine and cats died. There have also been several unofficial recalls of TOTW due to "foreign protein sources", never specified that made many dogs sick.


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## kevin bradley (Aug 9, 2009)

I don't like some of the comments that Ftime has made, nor his tone in many of his posts...

but I'll be honest, I'm beginning to agree that its damn important to believe in the company we get our food from. How you measure that, however, becomes very difficult. Do we just cross out EVERY company thats ever had a recall? Do we weight the recalls in terms of how severe the damage was? If we say that any company who ever had a recall is done sure does limit our options. 

Companies make mistakes. Sometimes they learn and become better for it. Sometimes it just magnifies their neglect. 

Overall, as I said, it gets VERY challenging to judge the integrity of an entire company. But I do like to try.


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## MollyWoppy (Mar 19, 2010)

I judge it by how bad the recall was, how many animals died or got terribly sick, how it happened, was it due to deceitfully using contaminated ingredients to improve their own bottom line, and, most importantly the companies integrity during the recall. Were they forced to recall the food, were they concealing and try to hide or delay a recall, did they act only for their own best bottom line interests or with the absolute best intentions towards the animals concerned?
During the melamine recall in 2007, the main company involved would release statements on a Friday night because they knew that's when the media would be least likely to pick it up. When companies act like this, they are done as far as I'm concerned. (haha, as if my not buying their products make the slightest bit of difference to them )
If it was something like salmonella, fish bones, using a some berry or other natural ingredient that some Government Dept has a labeling hard on over, precautionary recalls, no animals harmed, those I don't care about.


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## Feedingtime (Oct 21, 2011)

MollyWoppy said:


> I judge it by how bad the recall was, how many animals died or got terribly sick, how it happened, was it due to deceitfully using contaminated ingredients to improve their own bottom line, and, most importantly the companies integrity during the recall. Were they forced to recall the food, were they concealing and try to hide or delay a recall, did they act only for their own best bottom line interests or with the absolute best intentions towards the animals concerned?
> During the melamine recall in 2007, the main company involved would release statements on a Friday night because they knew that's when the media would be least likely to pick it up. When companies act like this, they are done as far as I'm concerned. (haha, as if my not buying their products make the slightest bit of difference to them )
> If it was something like salmonella, fish bones, using a some berry or other natural ingredient that some Government Dept has a labeling hard on over, precautionary recalls, no animals harmed, those I don't care about.


Fair enough, read the FDA's findings. See if that changes your mind.


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## dr tim (Mar 27, 2011)

Do you still eat these items? Yes, but I sure try to eat local or butcher produced products, not a mass hamburger operation so I guess I am a hypocrite; Let me have it.


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## Tobi (Mar 18, 2011)

dr tim said:


> Do you still eat these items? Yes, but I sure try to eat local or butcher produced products, not a mass hamburger operation so I guess I am a hypocrite; Let me have it.


nah, not a hypocrite... but at one point you'll have to understand that the system is completely fallible... and mistakes are going to be made on ANY mass scale. We get our meats local as well, they have a perfect track record but who's to say that one slip wouldn't cause a small problem too? Would it make me never use their product again? no, would i be more leery of it? for sure. I think some of these company's are trying to get their feet back in the right place after a fall is all... just my 2c :smile:


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## DaViking (Sep 27, 2011)

edit; was going to answer feedingtime but just saw he's banned (again?) so what's the point. Damn, "truthdog" got himself banned again in my short absence! Obviously I can't miss a beat here.


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