# some raw help needed



## jeserf (Oct 20, 2009)

After talking with the nutritionist at our local natural store (who is also Lucy's alternate dog walker, so I know she cares about my dog's health since she's such a fan of the pooch!), it looks like a gradual shift to raw might be in order. 

I know some of you aren't fans of the Primal products, but I'm going to state this now: In order to see if my dog even LIKES this form of eating before I contaminate my house, I'm going to throw a few cubes of their prepared food with her kibble at first to see how it goes (interest, end poop product, etc). I also think knowing THIS type of product works for her is important in terms of her being able to eat when others are watching her. We live in a city with very little space (I have no laundry room, no extra fridge/freezer or 'small' grocery stores with butchers). However, we DO have farmers markets where if I go for it, I could probably try to get a discount on leftovers at the end of the market. I will not feed my dog crap from the Safeway meat section. Ick. 

So anyway....she's 88-90lbs, which is roughly 1.8lbs of food per day on this diet (.9 a meal and yes I have a scale). 

What do I feed her? I am moderately willing to handle chicken livers, but I think in terms of organs that'd be about as far as I could go. 
Do I really just throw a chicken leg in her bowl? Aren't those bones small? 
In terms of amount, as long as it equals about a pound of food, does it matter what it is? If I have ground chicken because it's on sale, and some cottage cheese and an egg does that work? 

She currently gets marrow bones as treats (the other treats tend to be bully sticks, but not many other treats). 

I suppose my biggest question is what does her diet need to look like? I am a vegetarian without any extra space, but I have a pair of tongs I could use to toss her some food! If I know what body parts for a larger mastiff mix, I could take the list to the farmers market and see what they have or what I have to order. 

a three day rotation would work best, and I really don't have access to much beyond cow, chicken, and buffalo (DC isn't a big hunting town). 

Thanks in advance, and please don't send me to more links. I'm read out over these past couple of weeks!


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## DaneMama (Jun 27, 2008)

Skylar, Zack, and Abby on the WEB

This is a link from RawFedDog's signature. Read through this and it will answer all the questions you have. You definitely want to start your dog on a raw diet the correct way, so you can avoid as many issues as possible.

Feel free to come back after reading it with any other questions you might have! Good luck!

There is absolutely no reason why your dog wont like a raw diet. Some dogs need to get used to eating that way, since they have pretty much no idea what to do with it. Give them time and be the pack leader when making the switch. You are in charge of what they eat, when they eat and how much. Don't create a picky eater by giving into them "not liking the food" from them not eating it at first (most likely your dog wont know what to do with it, unless its a natural :wink: ). Again, give your dog time to make the adjustment. If they at first don't eat it, don't feed them until they do.


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## RawFedDogs (Jun 16, 2008)

jeserf said:


> After talking with the nutritionist at our local natural store (who is also Lucy's alternate dog walker, so I know she cares about my dog's health since she's such a fan of the pooch!), it looks like a gradual shift to raw might be in order.


Great!!! 



> I know some of you aren't fans of the Primal products, but I'm going to state this now: In order to see if my dog even LIKES this form of eating before I contaminate my house, I'm going to throw a few cubes of their prepared food with her kibble at first to see how it goes (interest, end poop product, etc).


YOu can do that if you are determined to but you aren't going to learn anything from it. I promise you that your dog will love a prey model raw diet. It make take a few days for her to learn to eat it but after that you will be amazed at how excited she will get when you start to put the food in her bowl. :smile: BTW: You are NOT going to contaminate your house. Hundreds of millions of people have raw fodd in their house all the time without getting contaminated.



> I also think knowing THIS type of product works for her is important in terms of her being able to eat when others are watching her.


I don't see how raw food will change that.  If she's ok now, she will be ok with raw.



> We live in a city with very little space (I have no laundry room, no extra fridge/freezer or 'small' grocery stores with butchers). However, we DO have farmers markets where if I go for it, I could probably try to get a discount on leftovers at the end of the market. I will not feed my dog crap from the Safeway meat section. Ick.


Farmers markets are great!!! Get what you can from there. It will take you a few months to learn how to shop for your dog's raw diet. Don't get discouraged in the beginning if buying stuff seems hard. It will get easier and you will learn to get cheap food and even free food.



> So anyway....she's 88-90lbs, which is roughly 1.8lbs of food per day on this diet (.9 a meal and yes I have a scale).


Yeah, but no need to be so exact. "Somewhere around 2 lbs a day" is sufficient. Feen her somewhere in the ball park of that and if she gaines weight, feed less and vice versa. You may feed a larger meal today and a smaller one tomorrow. Thats no problem. Just watch her build and feed accordingly.



> What do I feed her? I am moderately willing to handle chicken livers, but I think in terms of organs that'd be about as far as I could go.


Frozen beef liver isn't real icky if its still partially frozen when you feed it. A dog that size needs chicken quarters, chicken halves, Turkey necks (try to get the whole ones before they have been cut.) Pork ribs and pork roasts are great. Frozen fish is great if you can get her to eat it. I feed my dogs canned salmon once a week. If you can beg some deer meat from hunter friends, that is the best thing you can feed. If you can find some lamb reasonably priced, it would be great. It's too expensive around here. I wouldn't feed a lot of ground meet. A couple of meals a week is ok but don't over do it.



> Do I really just throw a chicken leg in her bowl?


I wouldn't feed a chicken leg to a dog that large.



> In terms of amount, as long as it equals about a pound of food, does it matter what it is? If I have ground chicken because it's on sale, and some cottage cheese and an egg does that work?


You can forget the cottage cheese but yes a pound of food is a pound of food. After you feed raw for a while you won't be so anal about weight of food. You know you will feed a chicken quarter for a meal, or maybe a can of salmon plus some liver and a raw egg will be another meal. Half a Boston Butt pork roast will be another meal. You wlll soon learn how much to feed.



> I suppose my biggest question is what does her diet need to look like?


It basically looks like meat, bones and organs. Animal parts. Chicken quarters, pork roasts (usually half will be a meal), a slab of pork ribs, beef roasts, a slab or half slab of beef ribs, fish, raw eggs, and any other animal part you can think of. Most any scraps from a butcher would be great.



> a three day rotation would work best, and I really don't have access to much beyond cow, chicken, and buffalo (DC isn't a big hunting town).


Don't be real concerned about rotations. Buy what you can buy cheap today and feed that for a few days. Next time you go, something else may be cheap and get that. If she has chicken 3 days in a row, its no big deal. 4 or 5 days of pork? Thats ok. Just whatever you can get cheap remembering that over time she needs some variety. You don't want to feed chicken only forever but if she eats chicken 4 days a week, pork one day, fish one day thats fine. Chicken is usually the cheapest thing you can get. If ground chicken or turkey or pork or beef is on sale, get it. Its ok to mix and match also. If you want to feed some ground pork and a chicken back in one meal, thats fine.



> Thanks in advance, and please don't send me to more links. I'm read out over these past couple of weeks!


There is just ONE link that you really want to see. This is about what the food looks like. There are pictures galore of all these things you can feed your dog. The link is Raw Feeding Recipes This page will more than anwser most of the questions you made in this post. :smile:


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## Doc (Jan 17, 2009)

*chicken and ribs*

I just packed up 40 pounds of chicken backs (.23 per pound) and 40 pounds of pork spare ribs ($1.40 per pound). Make ya wanna smack your momma RFD.

My dawgs finished off all the turkey necks so I step up to pork ribs. This ain't rocket science. Well, at first it is but soon it gets so simple.


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## jdatwood (Apr 13, 2009)

RawFedDogs said:


> There is just ONE link that you really want to see. This is about what the food looks like. There are pictures galore of all these things you can feed your dog. The link is Raw Feeding Recipes This page will more than anwser most of the questions you made in this post. :smile:


That is AWESOME!!!


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## RawFedDogs (Jun 16, 2008)

Doc said:


> I just packed up 40 pounds of chicken backs (.23 per pound) and 40 pounds of pork spare ribs ($1.40 per pound). Make ya wanna smack your momma RFD.


Hehe, yeah it does. :smile: I picked up 40 lbs of chicken backs today at .35/lb. :smile:



> This ain't rocket science. Well, at first it is but soon it gets so simple.


Doesn't it become real simple real fast? :smile:


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## jeserf (Oct 20, 2009)

Lucy loves dairy and veggies, so like others here, I plan on giving her items low in phosphorus that she likes. She'll kill her best friend for yogurt - you should see her run to the frozen yogurt shop...and she doesn't like running. Pray might work for some people, but it won't for Lucy even if I tried - she eats grass ALL the time on walks. Nom nom walk nom nom walk (and no, she doesn't throw up...we think she just likes grass and leaves...weirdo!)

I also need to ease her in to this type of diet because the history of her tummy issues. I know it's not necessary - some people in any diet go cold turkey...but she has always had a very sensitive stomach (which is why I love california naturals). I used to say when she was a pup when she was on diff food that she'd get the runs from watching a person eat something.

so if I go to the farmers market tomorrow, I should ask for 4 quarters of chicken and some livers? Someone said chicken wings, but I gather those are to small for her size? I should stick to chicken backs and for wings/legs stick to turkey? (no pork in my house...Jews for the win!)

Like I said, Im going to ween her on it with primal, since it's already measured out and convenient. Are thinks like ground chicken/hamburger good? Also, does she have to eat a bone every day? Can one day be something I've mushed up in the processor (livers, baked sweet potato, moderately cooked egg, for example?)?

I'm hoping to speak with the vet today about switching to inform her of the plans/get her input. With Lucy's elevated but not dangerous CREAT levels, I think a good agreement would be to test this out for 2-3 months and get her blood rechecked to see if it has any impact. 

I'd still like to hear of people whose dogs creat levels have stabilized/decreased in changing to a raw diet. 

Thanks, all! TGIF


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## RawFedDogs (Jun 16, 2008)

jeserf said:


> Lucy loves dairy and veggies, so like others here, I plan on giving her items low in phosphorus that she likes. She'll kill her best friend for yogurt - you should see her run to the frozen yogurt shop...and she doesn't like running. Pray might work for some people, but it won't for Lucy even if I tried - she eats grass ALL the time on walks. Nom nom walk nom nom walk (and no, she doesn't throw up...we think she just likes grass and leaves...weirdo!)


You have already lost before you begin. Of course prey model raw will work for your dog. She is a carnivore. Her body was designed from the tip of her snout to her anus to eat and digest raw meat, bones, and organs. Saying prey model diet won't work for her is like saying a diet of grass won't work for some cows.



> I also need to ease her in to this type of diet because the history of her tummy issues. I know it's not necessary - some people in any diet go cold turkey...but she has always had a very sensitive stomach (which is why I love california naturals). I used to say when she was a pup when she was on diff food that she'd get the runs from watching a person eat something.


Did it ever occur to you that maybe, just maybe her "tummy issues" were because of the inappropriate foods you've been giving her? All the veggies and dairy? I'm pretty sure that once those are eliminated from her diet, her digestive problems will go away. Her body was not designed to digest such foods. It puts a great strain on it to try.



> so if I go to the farmers market tomorrow, I should ask for 4 quarters of chicken and some livers? Someone said chicken wings, but I gather those are to small for her size? I should stick to chicken backs and for wings/legs stick to turkey? (no pork in my house...Jews for the win!)


Go back and re-read my web page. No organs for a couple of months. Let her digestive system adjust to the meat and bones before introducing organs. Chicken backs and quarters are all you need to concern yourself with for the next couple of weeks.



> Like I said, Im going to ween her on it with primal, since it's already measured out and convenient.


Like I said in a previous post, Primal isn't going to help in any way. It will not help ween her onto a prey model raw diet. It's nothing more than raw kibble. You are not accomplishing anything nor are you making it easier to switch by feeding it. The only thing you are accomplishing is postponing the time you have to go buy some chicken parts.



> Are thinks like ground chicken/hamburger good?


In moderation. I wouldn't feed ground stuff for a month or more. Ground meat is high in fat and makes digestion more difficult. She should be able to handle it well after she has adjusted herself to real food.



> Also, does she have to eat a bone every day?


No.



> Can one day be something I've mushed up in the processor (livers, baked sweet potato, moderately cooked egg, for example?)?


Why on earth do you want to do that? She has a digestive system capable of handling the food you will be feeding her. Mushing up stuff is not doing her any favors. Let her digestive system do the work it is designed to do. There isn't any harm in it as long as it's very occasionally but it's entirely unnecessary.



> I'm hoping to speak with the vet today about switching to inform her of the plans/get her input. With Lucy's elevated but not dangerous CREAT levels, I think a good agreement would be to test this out for 2-3 months and get her blood rechecked to see if it has any impact.


If it makes you feel better, go ahead but there will be no impact one way or the other. A prey model raw diet is not going to cure a damaged kidney nor will it hurt it in any way.



> I'd still like to hear of people whose dogs creat levels have stabilized/decreased in changing to a raw diet.


You won't hear from anyone like that because it doesn't do that. You also won't hear from anyone who will say it made it worse.


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## rannmiller (Jun 27, 2008)

The Primal will at least get some good quality raw meat into her diet, so that's a good thing since she doesn't get any of that right now. 

I have to agree with RFD about the tummy issues, it could very well be from the kibble. 

As I said earlier, my renal failure dog is doing phenomenally well on a raw diet but I haven't had her blood tested since she's doing so well, why spend the $200? She's already outlived the vet's estimation by 4 years now. 

My cat is in early stage renal failure and the only thing she will eat is raw food. She stopped eating for a few weeks and really started acting like a renal failure kitty. I found a raw food she actually loves and will eat and she hasn't had a problem since. The only reason the vet suspected she was in renal failure is because she had smelly breath and was slightly dehydrated, so we did some bloodwork on her and found it out. I honestly believe that the only reason she isn't far far worse is because the raw food has helped her turn it around/keep it in check. I'm getting bloodwork done again in two more months to make sure she's still doing well so I'll let you know then. The main problem that I've heard with that though is that the high protein of the food raises their BUN or Creat levels (I don't remember which one at the moment) on paper so it looks like it's worse than it actually is.


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## jeserf (Oct 20, 2009)

I'm sorry, Lucy does great on dairy and veggies. She had the runs from high fat kibble (the vet said "large breed puppy" and it was a baaad idea). She gets yogurt every so often and has never had any problems from it other than wanting more. Same with some other items. Why would proponents of raw recommend probiotics if their bellies didn't need it, at least in the beginning? Or, are you smarter than other proponents of the diet?

No offense, but I know what makes my dog sick. The fact that so many meat parts (including skin) are so high in fat makes me even more nervous about switching her. 

I have a very hard time believing a dog with a sensitivity to higher fat items won't get sick if I simply throw a half a chicken, raw, in her bowl. So if that's is my belief based on experience with her, why wouldn't I ween her off to be on the safe side? No dog likes to get sick. 

I'm sure it's worked well for you, but every dog is different. I have tried a few foods/diets, including home cooking (which she did perfectly fine on, but I have a life) and she stopped getting sick when I eliminated higher fat items (and gave up on fish...oh god that was the worst). 

And yes, I've looked at your web site but it does not help me much. Is your full time job raw food for your pets? 

And a stabilized (which means not made worse) CREAT level is a great part of what we're looking for. Every other level is within normal range, so not making her creat worse would be good.


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## jeserf (Oct 20, 2009)

rannmiller said:


> I have to agree with RFD about the tummy issues, it could very well be from the kibble.
> 
> As I said earlier, my renal failure dog is doing phenomenally well on a raw diet but I haven't had her blood tested since she's doing so well, why spend the $200? She's already outlived the vet's estimation by 4 years now.


Yes, her previous kibble didn't work for her. Since we've switched to lower fat, limited ingredients kibble, she's been great. That doesn't mean, though, that if I switch her diet cold turkey that she won't get sick. I've seen my dog sick enough (when I got her, she had whip worm) - it's been so nice the last 9 months or so. 

It costs you $200 to get your dog's blood tested?!?! yikes!


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## RawFedDogs (Jun 16, 2008)

jeserf said:


> Why would proponents of raw recommend probiotics if their bellies didn't need it, at least in the beginning? Or, are you smarter than other proponents of the diet?


I am a propronent of raw diet and I have never recommended probiotics or prebiotics. All dogs have them already in their digestive system can regulate the amount very well. Throwing them in the diet just complicates things. So to answer your question, yes I think im smarter than people who recommend these unnecessary supplements. Does that mean that occasionally (very occasionally) a dog doesn't develop a physical problem that probiotics would help? No it doesn't. In rare instances probiotics might be called for.



> No offense, but I know what makes my dog sick. The fact that so many meat parts (including skin) are so high in fat makes me even more nervous about switching her.


No offense but I don't think you do. Don't equate how a dog's body handles fat to the way a human's body handles it. We are different animals and out bodies handle fat differently. Having said that, it's possible that a dog who is kibble fed might have problems with high levels of fat early in the transistion. Once the dog has eaten a prey model raw diet a few weeks and his body has made the internal enzyme adjustment, fat will no longer be a problem. For the first few weeks of eating raw, you might want to cut the skin off the chicken if she has digestive problems. Most likely it won't be necessary.



> I have a very hard time believing a dog with a sensitivity to higher fat items won't get sick if I simply throw a half a chicken, raw, in her bowl. So if that's is my belief based on experience with her, why wouldn't I ween her off to be on the safe side? No dog likes to get sick.


I wouldn't ween her but if you want to be on the safe side, feed nothing but chicken backs the first week and cut the extra fat off them. The boney backs minus the fat will greatly hold down the chances of digestive upset. 



> I'm sure it's worked well for you, but every dog is different. I have tried a few foods/diets, including home cooking (which she did perfectly fine on, but I have a life) and she stopped getting sick when I eliminated higher fat items (and gave up on fish...oh god that was the worst).


No, every dog is exactly alike. THey all have the same parts in their digestive system. Fed a proper diet, they will all have the same results. You may have fed her different diets but I'll bet you still fed her veggies, fruits, and dairy products. Cooking destroys nutrients including enzymes in the food that aids in digestion. Cooked food is much more difficult to digest than raw food. Believe me, once your dog adjusts to eating a raw diet, fat will not be a problem.



> And yes, I've looked at your web site but it does not help me much. Is your full time job raw food for your pets?


It didn't help you because you read a lot of things you didn't want to see. It tells you to do things you don't want to do. No, it's definately not a full time job. It takes me about a couple of hours a month more to feed raw than to feed kibble. Thats about 4 minutes a day. Hardly a full time job.

*ETA:* Transistioning a dog to a prey model raw diet is a process. I have helped well over 100 dogs switch with almost no problems. Don't try to shortcut the process. It only will lead to having a more difficult experience.


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## jeserf (Oct 20, 2009)

hahah you bet. 
I feed my dog 1 cup of food in the morning, one in the afternoon, and her evening treat once in a while is frozen yogurt or a marrow bone (from primal...omg I'm a horrible mother!). IF I have extra winter squash or sweet potato, she gets a little as a treat. She loves yogurt. You might not think it's necessary in your opinion, but I'm going to bet (just like you!) your diet doesn't consist of only necessary items. Birthday cake? morning coffee? 

She doesn't eat human food, I never feed her from the kitchen counter, etc. 

So, if high fat food (large breed diet and treats like rawhide) gave my dog the runs, and taking her off said diet got rid of the problem, I suppose you're right that I don't know what makes her sick. 

I've read far more information that giving your dog pulped veggies a couple of times a week is appropriate and believe me, I've read a lot (including when I got her, but didn't go raw). So, I don't see how one web site recommended by its creator is any different than, say, a vet trying to get me to buy science diet. 

I'm still waiting for the results of her sterile bladder culture, but tomorrow is the farmers market and I'll see what the chicken folks have - I might have to order a back...or on our trip to Wegmans, we'll see if we can get a chicken quartered from the butcher (yes, I have to drive all the way to Wegmans, about 40 minutes each eay, to go to a market with an on-site butcher...luckily it's a great store!). 

The farmers market has chicken and buffalo, sometimes other things but mostly those items. And eggs. Wonderful free range eggs with bright orange yolks!


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## jeserf (Oct 20, 2009)

just got this from the farmers market:

Said producer: Yes, their beef is great. All grass- fed and all grass- finished beef from half Piedmontese cows. Steaks - Porterhouse, T-Bone, Delmonico, Sandwich Steak, Sirloin. Eye Round, Chuck and Arm make easy- to- cook slow roasts and stews for rainy days and cooler nights. Ground Beef at a small local family farm butcher who works with one or two cows at a time! Ground to Daniel's specs. Hamburger Patties, Bones, Liver, Heart, Tongue and Tail for humans and dogs!


A dog would get the liver, heart, and tongue? 

And yes, I just threw up in my mouth a bit.


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## jeserf (Oct 20, 2009)

www.dogaware.com/kidneys has a chart with various foods and their phosphorus levels. Most of the stuff I've read is that limiting protein in diets should only happen at the very very end stages of kidney failure, but that limiting phosphorus is important

(great site by the way)

But the items like chicken necks and backs are very very high in phosphorus. What is the insight on this here?


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## RawFedDogs (Jun 16, 2008)

jeserf said:


> You might not think it's necessary in your opinion, but I'm going to bet (just like you!) your diet doesn't consist of only necessary items. Birthday cake? morning coffee?


Somewhat. I have almost entirely cut out sweets and I have lost almost 40lbs in the last 4 months. I don't drink coffee or tea except for green tea. I eat very little bread. And your' right. Those things won't hurt her and if you want to feed them as treats, thats OK, but don't expect any nutritional value to be derived from them. The veggies may also be contributing to the sensitive stomach issue. 



> She doesn't eat human food, I never feed her from the kitchen counter, etc.


I do ... but its always left over meats. I don't feed from the table but when the kitchen is being cleared, the leftover meats are handed out at the kitchen sink. The dogs always gather at the sink when we begin clearing the table. :smile: Sometimes we say, "nothing tonight" when there is no leftover meat and they hang their heads and walk away. :smile: 



> So, if high fat food (large breed diet and treats like rawhide) gave my dog the runs, and taking her off said diet got rid of the problem, I suppose you're right that I don't know what makes her sick.


Yes, I am. You don't know which components in the diet are causing the problem. Cooked and Processed fats can definately be a problem. Raw fats? No.



> I've read far more information that giving your dog pulped veggies a couple of times a week is appropriate and believe me, I've read a lot (including when I got her, but didn't go raw).


If you have to pulp or otherwise process a food for any animal to unilize it, then it obviously isn't what that animal should be eating. Wolves cannot find pulped veggies in nature. Nature designed certain animals to eat certain things. Dogs are carnivores and designed to eat meat, bones, and organs. They do not have the equipment to propery digest and utilize veggies. There are no nutrients in veggies that are not in the meat, bones, and organs of the prey animals that eat them. 



> So, I don't see how one web site recommended by its creator is any different than, say, a vet trying to get me to buy science diet.


It's a good point, however the creator of the website in question is much more knowledgable about canine nutrition that 95% of the vets out there and is paid nothing to recommend any garbage low quality dog food. You see, during their schooling, vets take ONE course on ANIMAL nutrition. That covers all animals from rats to cows and horses and includes dogs and cats. ONE COURSE for 3 months. That is the sum total of their training in animal nutrition. Most of that course is spent learning how to read the labeling on dog food. The creator of that wonderful web page has taken a couple of college courses on canine nutrition and has attended 3 seminars by world renoun canine nutrition experts as well as spent hundreds of hours doing research.



> I'm still waiting for the results of her sterile bladder culture, but tomorrow is the farmers market and I'll see what the chicken folks have - I might have to order a back...or on our trip to Wegmans, we'll see if we can get a chicken quartered from the butcher (yes, I have to drive all the way to Wegmans, about 40 minutes each eay, to go to a market with an on-site butcher...luckily it's a great store!).


Cool ... hope the tests are good.



> The farmers market has chicken and buffalo, sometimes other things but mostly those items. And eggs. Wonderful free range eggs with bright orange yolks!


Great ... chicken should be real cheap there. Free range eggs are wonderful.


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## jeserf (Oct 20, 2009)

I have a canine nutritionist at our local pet food store, and she doesn't care where you buy food from. I don't buy anything from my vet, and my vet has never tried to sell me anything (other than her anti-worm meds, and even then they don't care where I get them from)

The dogaware kidney info is probably the most helpful information I have found with regards to an appropriate kidney diet. 

Comments on phosphorus in the diet would be helpful. If you don't feel like reeding it from that site, she basically fed her dog a mixture of raw meat, mostly ground - reduced bone levels because of the phosphorus in them - and some other things on rotation like whole egg, yogurt, sweet potato and some salmon oil...maybe some tripe (kudos to whoever recommended in other threats the dog food WITH tripe in it so you don't have to go buy tripe, or can see if the dog likes tripe)


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## RawFedDogs (Jun 16, 2008)

jeserf said:


> The dogaware kidney info is probably the most helpful information I have found with regards to an appropriate kidney diet.


That is a good page with a lot of good information. I don't agree with everything they say but I don't think there is a page on the internet that has more than 2 words on it that I agree with everything. :smile: 



> Comments on phosphorus in the diet would be helpful. If you don't feel like reeding it from that site, she basically fed her dog a mixture of raw meat, mostly ground - reduced bone levels because of the phosphorus in them - and some other things on rotation like whole egg, yogurt, sweet potato and some salmon oil...maybe some tripe (kudos to whoever recommended in other threats the dog food WITH tripe in it so you don't have to go buy tripe, or can see if the dog likes tripe)


It's not a big problem to reduce the bone amount in a prey model raw diet. You don't want to eliminate bone all together. I suggest from 5% to 10% of the diet being bone in your case. In this case sweet potato is used to firm up the stool with the reduction of bones. Bones are constipators and generally a dog who is having soft stools or diarrhea should be fed more bones but in the case of a renal failure dog, that isn't practical. A dog fed too little bone will usually have soft mushy stools.

Is there a kibble with tripe in it? Oh, believe me, there has never been a dog born who doesn't like green tripe. :biggrin: Make sure it's green tripe and not the tripe that is sold in grocery stores. That tripe is useless nutritionally.


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## DaneMama (Jun 27, 2008)

jeserf-

You are really overcomplicating things trying to figure out a raw diet.

Also, just because your dog likes something, say yogurt or grass, doesn't mean that she is supposed to eat it...just like we really shouldn't eat cake and drink coffee. 

You are the one in charge of what she eats, how much and when. I REALLY wish someone had that power over me that cared 100% about nutrition only, giving me only what I need...not what I want. I would be as healthy as ever if someone had that power over me (and I think that everyone here will agree with me!!!). I would never have to worry about being on a diet and losing weight.

So when it comes to picking out what she has to eat, shouldn't you care 100% about nutrition only? Espeically in her case with her kidney issue? 

And if you are worried about her becoming less than satisfied on a raw diet without getting her favorite thing that she would kill for...YOGURT...give it a chance and you will see that she will most likely like raw meats more than yogurt. It will become a thing of the past.


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## jeserf (Oct 20, 2009)

RawFedDogs said:


> Is there a kibble with tripe in it? Oh, believe me, there has never been a dog born who doesn't like green tripe. :biggrin: Make sure it's green tripe and not the tripe that is sold in grocery stores. That tripe is useless nutritionally.



no, there is wet green tripe food with other stuff in it - Ziwipak, solid gold, etc. Lots of pages have recommended using it in that it's easier to get, shelf stable, etc. 

and there are people on this site that have posted that their dogs don't like tripe. So I guess they're also wrong about their dogs?

I wasn't saying she NEEDS yogurt, but if the things you all on the "prey" diet feed your dogs are higher in phosphorus (the chart on dogaware is very, very good) then a dog needs to be given other things for bulk and vitamins/minerals. So, giving your dog bones 2-3 times a week and pieces of meat without bone isn't giving the dog everything, things like egg shell/white and other items that provide minerals should be given. That's what that web site talks about. She also gave the dog fish oil and her story about the dog's health is wonderful. I consider the situations similar in that it was a fluke off number that needs to be addressed, not an overall specific issue (if that makes sense). 

That story and the diet gave me hope that I can help Lucy's creatnine level (which can mean not make it worse and I'll be fine with that) and that the meat is easier to cope with in terms of amount when she should have reduced bone/larger cuts of meat. Chunks of lamb, shredded butternut squash and a whole egg are, for someone like me, easier to read as a recipe than "here's a picture of a dog with a hunk of brisket"  Especially when it's accompanied with a break down of each item's phosphorus level and how it fits in to what is recommended.


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## RawFedDogs (Jun 16, 2008)

jeserf said:


> no, there is wet green tripe food with other stuff in it - Ziwipak, solid gold, etc. Lots of pages have recommended using it in that it's easier to get, shelf stable, etc.


OK, I guess I misunderstood you. I thought you were talking about kibble with green tripe in it. I am very aware of canned and frozen green tripe.



> and there are people on this site that have posted that their dogs don't like tripe. So I guess they're also wrong about their dogs?


I may just not remember or maybe I missed it but I don't remember a single post like that. BTW: I don't feed green tripe to my dogs.



> I wasn't saying she NEEDS yogurt, but if the things you all on the "prey" diet feed your dogs are higher in phosphorus (the chart on dogaware is very, very good) then a dog needs to be given other things for bulk and vitamins/minerals.


You can give them that stuff if you want to but ideally you would give them more boneless meat. Somehow you keep forgetting your dog is a carnivore. Carnivores bodies aren't designed to eat plant material or dairy.



> So, giving your dog bones 2-3 times a week and pieces of meat without bone isn't giving the dog everything, things like egg shell/white and other items that provide minerals should be given.


Raw eggs and egg shells are great to feed. Egg shells are particularly useful if you have a need, like you, to cut back on bone.



> That's what that web site talks about. She also gave the dog fish oil and her story about the dog's health is wonderful. I consider the situations similar in that it was a fluke off number that needs to be addressed, not an overall specific issue (if that makes sense).


Fish oil is very good for Omega 3's. Salmon oil is even better. Raw whole salmon is even better.



> Chunks of lamb, shredded butternut squash and a whole egg are, for someone like me, easier to read as a recipe than "here's a picture of a dog with a hunk of brisket"  Especially when it's accompanied with a break down of each item's phosphorus level and how it fits in to what is recommended.


Shredded butternut squash is pretty useless for a carnivore but the rest is great. If you want to know the nutritional breakdown of most any animal part you can go to http://www.nal.usda.gov/fnic/foodcomp/search/
Enter the word "raw" into the search criteria. For example, "raw chicken", "raw beef", etc.


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## jeserf (Oct 20, 2009)

if it's "useless", but low in phosphorus, is it really useless? If too much meat/bone is difficult to give her to lower level of phosphorus, would you recommend simply feeding her less? That doesn't sound like good logic if so. 

At the farmers market, the stand with the amazing pumpkin whoopie pies (omg so good) sells frozen chicken gizzards, cow kidney/heart and frozen beef rib bones (which are apparently good). The other meat place had mostly cooking cuts (brisket, etc which is very expensive) 

I got a bag of primal lamb to see how her tummy reacts for a few days - gave her some organic plain yogurt from the market and she was happy, made her food nice and moist). 

Next week at the market I'll probably buy the gizzards and rib bones. chicken livers are available at the super market, but not sure of the quality. 

the dogs not liking trip was either on this board or the "dog forum" boards. It's in the same thread I read about the canned food with tripe in it. Either way, apparently it stinks and in a small space, not sure that would go over well. pppeeewww! 

Once her kibble is gone and I see her like the primal, I'll buy some other stuff. 

Anyone give their dog uncooked lamb with bone in it? Like rack of lamb or something? I ask b/c lamb is a low phosphorus protein. (And rack of lamb in the freezer section of trader joes is pretty inexpensive for my area)


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## whiteleo (Sep 7, 2008)

The canned tripe in question that I think your talking about is green lamb tripe by "Tripett", they also make a beef green tripe and a green beef tripe, duck and salmon. My dogs get a variety of all three and they go absolutely crazy for it. Tripett


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## RawFedDogs (Jun 16, 2008)

jeserf said:


> if it's "useless", but low in phosphorus, is it really useless?


Yes, it has very little or no useful nutrition. Cardboard has low phosphorus but it is pretty useless to feed also.



> If too much meat/bone is difficult to give her to lower level of phosphorus, would you recommend simply feeding her less? That doesn't sound like good logic if so.


You are a little confused. It's not less meat/bone you need to feed. It's less bone. Bone is high in phophorus, meat is not nearly so high. You judge how much volume to feed by the dogs build. Not by any ratios you are trying to maintain.



> At the farmers market, the stand with the amazing pumpkin whoopie pies (omg so good) sells frozen chicken gizzards, cow kidney/heart and frozen beef rib bones (which are apparently good). The other meat place had mostly cooking cuts (brisket, etc which is very expensive)


Chicken gizzards are only so-so in nutritional value. Beef kidney is a great organ to feed. For our purposes, heart is not an organ, rather muscle meat. The hear is mostly muscle. Beef ribs are good but very boney which is not what we are looking for. Boney means high phophorus.



> I got a bag of primal lamb to see how her tummy reacts for a few days - gave her some organic plain yogurt from the market and she was happy, made her food nice and moist).


Like I said before. If it makes you feel better, try it. It's not going to tell you anything. Primal lamb formula is high in fat. High amounts of fat can and often does cause diarrhea. Your prey model diet won't contain so much fat. Primal has 9 different fruits and veggies in it. Fruits and veggies can and often does cause diarrhea. 40% of Primal is produce. The point I'm trying to make is that the diet you are going to be feeding is not even close to the Primal Lamb diet. Feeding Primal for a week or 2 or even longer won't prove anything. 



> Next week at the market I'll probably buy the gizzards and rib bones. chicken livers are available at the super market, but not sure of the quality.


Slow down. Go back an re-read my page. Re-read the posts in this thread. You are asking for digestive disaster to give those foods to your dog this fast. Then you will swear, "Every dog is different. A raw diet just isn't for my dog. She can't handle it." You will be 100% wrong but you would have caused the digestive problems by not introducing your dog to the diet slowly. 



> the dogs not liking trip was either on this board or the "dog forum" boards. It's in the same thread I read about the canned food with tripe in it. Either way, apparently it stinks and in a small space, not sure that would go over well. pppeeewww!


Pppeeewww is an understatement. That stuff really stinks. It smells like the inside of a barn that hasn't been cleaned out in a while.



> Once her kibble is gone and I see her like the primal, I'll buy some other stuff.


Hehe, a dog that doesn't like meat, bones, and organs is like a cow that doesn't like grass. :biggrin: Just as the cow has evolved to eat grass, dogs have evolved over millions of years to eat raw meat, bones, and organs.



> Anyone give their dog uncooked lamb with bone in it? Like rack of lamb or something? I ask b/c lamb is a low phosphorus protein. (And rack of lamb in the freezer section of trader joes is pretty inexpensive for my area)


I have fed lamb ribs several times and they are a great food. They are heavy in bone and heavy in fat so you don't want to feed them every day but great food none the less. I haven't looked up the numbers but yes, I think you are correct about lamb meat being low in phophorus but a rack of lamb is real heavy in bone and lamb bone is still bone thus I think it would be high in phophorus. Again, I haven't checked the numbers but my logic tells me I'm correct. This MAY be the 2nd time I've been wrong this year. :biggrin:


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## rannmiller (Jun 27, 2008)

jeserf said:


> hahah you bet.
> IF I have extra winter squash or sweet potato, she gets a little as a treat. She loves yogurt. ...
> 
> She doesn't eat human food, I never feed her from the kitchen counter, etc.


But that is human food... 



jeserf said:


> So, if high fat food (large breed diet and treats like rawhide) gave my dog the runs, and taking her off said diet got rid of the problem, I suppose you're right that I don't know what makes her sick.


As RFD said, it could be that the processed fats don't agree with her but the raw ones will. I've heard of dogs who can't eat chicken in kibble but do just fine with it raw. You never know til you try, not that I'm saying you're wrong or don't know you're dog. I'm just saying it could be different raw. 



jeserf said:


> I've read far more information that giving your dog pulped veggies a couple of times a week is appropriate and believe me, I've read a lot (including when I got her, but didn't go raw). So, I don't see how one web site recommended by its creator is any different than, say, a vet trying to get me to buy science diet.


And I've read far far FAR more websites telling me that kibble is amazing for my dog and that carbohydrates of all sorts are essential for their diet, but I know that isn't true since my dogs have survived and thrived a little over a year with no carbs at all besides the occasional (and by that I mean like 6 times a year, some tiny tidbit) treat. See the problem is, all these websites will tell you that they know best, you just have to weed through the bs to find the truth based on logic and scientific facts. Fact: dogs are carnivores. Fact: a carnivore's most appropriate diet consists of meat, bones, and organs. Fact: feeding anything else is feeding an inappropriate diet to a carnivore. Pretty basic. Anything else people tell you, you can bet isn't true. 



jeserf said:


> I'm still waiting for the results of her sterile bladder culture


Good luck, let us know how that turns out, I hope she's doing better!



jeserf said:


> The farmers market has chicken and buffalo, sometimes other things but mostly those items. And eggs. Wonderful free range eggs with bright orange yolks!


All wonderful things, especially for your carnivore :smile:



RawFedDogs said:


> If you want to know the nutritional breakdown of most any animal part you can go to http://www.nal.usda.gov/fnic/foodcomp/search/
> Enter the word "raw" into the search criteria. For example, "raw chicken", "raw beef", etc.


That is an amazing website, thank you!


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## rannmiller (Jun 27, 2008)

jeserf said:


> Next week at the market I'll probably buy the gizzards and rib bones. chicken livers are available at the super market, but not sure of the quality.


I would probably hold off on those for a little while if I were you. Those are some pretty rich foods and you don't want to introduce too much too soon and cause her to have an upset tummy. Most raw feeders don't introduce organs and rich things like that until about a month after being on raw. The rib bones should be good though!



jeserf said:


> the dogs not liking trip was either on this board or the "dog forum" boards. It's in the same thread I read about the canned food with tripe in it. Either way, apparently it stinks and in a small space, not sure that would go over well. pppeeewww!


My dogs love tripe and after they eat it all and I throw the can away outside after rinsing it out, the smell usually dissipates pretty quickly. They only get it every two weeks or so. 



jeserf said:


> Once her kibble is gone and I see her like the primal, I'll buy some other stuff.


Good! Try chicken leg quarters (I think that's what you're talking about when you keep saying "chicken quartered," it's the thigh and drumstick attached to each other) and chicken backs to start. Not a very popular cut of meat so it's generally very inexpensive. 



jeserf said:


> Anyone give their dog uncooked lamb with bone in it? Like rack of lamb or something? I ask b/c lamb is a low phosphorus protein. (And rack of lamb in the freezer section of trader joes is pretty inexpensive for my area)


Yes I have given my dogs raw lamb with bone in it and they eat it just like any other raw meat with bone in it, so no problems there. However, lamb is still one of those richer things, so I'd probably hold off on it for a little while. Of course since you're starting with the Primal lamb formula, it might be ok to give her some a little earlier. But if she gets digestive upset from it, don't say I didn't warn you! 

We really don't mean to be mean to you about this or make you feel like your opinions are being attacked. We just have a lot of experience in this department so we're trying to be as helpful as possible, but you're making it a little difficult by telling us that we all don't know what we're talking about! Not that I don't enjoy the debate and education on both ends :biggrin:


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## jeserf (Oct 20, 2009)

no one is mean - but I just don't think that if you're directing me to your web site, I'm going to think of you any differently than a store trying to sell me something. What works for 1 dog might not work for another. And one dog's needs (i.e. kidney diet, diabetic diet, etc) are going to differ from another dog's. 

case in point - I threw some thawed raw primal in to Lucy's AM food. 
I also stirred in a little yogurt. 

She ate all the kibble and when I looked in her bowl, raw lamb was still there. 

I mushed it up with a fork...nope. 

I mushed it up with a fork and a little more yogurt, and the part mushed with yogurt was eaten. There are a couple bits of the raw still in the bowl, which wouldn't happen with kibble, etc. 

Funny because at the feed store, the guy said "if your dog doesn't like raw, get rid of it!". Lucy's dad this morning said, "well Lu, looks like we have to get rid of you!". 

But yeah, looks like she didn't like it. sucks for her!
shrug


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## RawFedDogs (Jun 16, 2008)

jeserf said:


> no one is mean - but I just don't think that if you're directing me to your web site, I'm going to think of you any differently than a store trying to sell me something. What works for 1 dog might not work for another. And one dog's needs (i.e. kidney diet, diabetic diet, etc) are going to differ from another dog's.


Health problems may cause a need for a slightly different diet. Not different nutrients just more or less of some nutrients. All dogs or any other animal need the same nutrients just in varying amounts if health problems are present. For example, a dog like yours may need less phophorus. She still need phophorus, just less of it.

I'm not trying to sell you anything. It will make absoultely no difference in my life no matter what you do. You can either feed raw, feed gabarge, feed kibble, take the dog to the pound, give the dog away. None of that will affect my life in the least. I have no ulterior motives for telling you anything one way or the other.



> case in point - I threw some thawed raw primal in to Lucy's AM food.
> I also stirred in a little yogurt.


As I told you 3 times previously, Primal isn't a raw diet. Its a diet of raw kibble. 40% of the ingredients in Primal isn't meat, organs or bone. 



> She ate all the kibble and when I looked in her bowl, raw lamb was still there.


How do you know it's the lamb she isn't eating? How do you know it's not the veggies in Primal she isn't eating? Thats what I told you before. Primal is 40% fruits and veggies. How do you know she doesn't like lamb but would like other animal's meat fine? How do you know she didn't eat it just because it was the first time she had seen it and didn't know she was supposed to eat it? That happens often.



> I mushed it up with a fork...nope.


Mushing up is not going to make any food more attractive to a dog.



> I mushed it up with a fork and a little more yogurt, and the part mushed with yogurt was eaten. There are a couple bits of the raw still in the bowl, which wouldn't happen with kibble, etc.


As I said 3 times before, you didn't learn anything except she didn't eat Primal for any of a dozen reasons.



> Funny because at the feed store, the guy said "if your dog doesn't like raw, get rid of it!". Lucy's dad this morning said, "well Lu, looks like we have to get rid of you!".


The guy at the feed store is making money off you if you buy kibble. If you switch to a raw diet, there goes one of his customers. Of course he will say that. Always be wary of information given to you by someone who stands to make money from any decision you make based on the information he gives you. Thats a basic rule of life. Never forget it.


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## whiteleo (Sep 7, 2008)

Have to say that when I was thinking of switching over to a raw diet for my dogs, I tried the premade patties for my dogs. they didn't like em. I'm not really sure which ones I tried, there were several Stella and Chewys being one of them. But when I did go all out and do the prey model raw diet, they loved it, I do add a few things here and there: Tripett, pieces of apple when I'm having one, etc. Good Luck finding the medium, but I'd say premades not a predictor.


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## rannmiller (Jun 27, 2008)

yeah now that you mention it, my dogs definitely preferred whole chicken pieces to pre-made raw kibble (such as Primal) when I first got started, and still to this day. Maybe try a bit-sized chunk of chicken breast instead of the Primal in the bowl. That will definitely help narrow it down what exactly it is she doesnt' like. I mean, look at everything that's in there: 



> Lamb, Lamb Hearts, Lamb Livers, Ground Lamb Bones, Organic Kale, Organic Carrots, Organic Yams, Organic Broccoli, Organic Apples, Cranberries, Organic Apple Cider Vinegar, Organic Parsley, Organic Coconut Oil, Organic Kelp, Alfalfa, Salmon Oil, Mixed Tocopherols (source of vitamin E)


Maybe she it's the Kale, or yams, broccoli, cranberries, apple cider vinegar, parsley, coconut oil, kelp, or alfalfa she doesn't like. It also takes some dogs a few times to figure out what raw is and how to eat it so don't get discouraged!

So like I said, buy some type of raw meat, cut off a couple chunks of it, and throw those in the bowl to see if she likes them.


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## jeserf (Oct 20, 2009)

will buy some meat chunks from the store next time we're there, I was simply pointing out how funny it was. 

we were going to take the dog to the store and say "well, you said get rid of her!" 

And they don't really care what I buy at the store - I'm not a regular food customer, I'm a regular doggie day care customer, and that's where I'm guessing 90% or so of their income comes from. A room full of dogs playing. 

Wait, now someone's going to tell me what doggie day care is also not the right thing to do for my dog


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## RawFedDogs (Jun 16, 2008)

jeserf said:


> Wait, now someone's going to tell me what doggie day care is also not the right thing to do for my dog


There may be some bad doggie day cares but the few I've had dealings with were wonderful. :smile:


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## rannmiller (Jun 27, 2008)

Yeah that would be funny. 

You'll probably have a hard time finding meat chunks pre-cut, but you will definitely be able to buy a boneless skinless chicken breast and chop that up at home.


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## jeserf (Oct 20, 2009)

just got back from the market empty handed because I wasn't sure what to get (when you don't eat it, you don't know!)

Our local Safeway is probably one of the grossest markets I've ever been in (and I've been to many places in my life)

They have the boneless, skinless chicken breasts - that's fine, and they have the strips for "stir fry". 

Should I stick with that for now before I add in bone?

Also, the only chicken with bone they had were drumsticks and full breasts with bone. Everything else was smaller (wings, "winglets"??? and thighs)

When we head back that way, should I get a thing of just the breast strips? 

And for future, for a dog of her size, are the drumsticks too small?

They have turkey drumsticks but I have heard that turkey meat tends to not be the best for doggies

I was going to get cubed up stew beef, but still came back with nada


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## RawFedDogs (Jun 16, 2008)

jeserf said:


> just got back from the market empty handed because I wasn't sure what to get (when you don't eat it, you don't know!)


Chicken only for the first two weeks. Chicken quarters would be best.

Our local Safeway is probably one of the grossest markets I've ever been in (and I've been to many places in my life)

I've never been in a safeway but I have a feeling that any place with a large meat selection will be gross to you in the beginning.



> They have the boneless, skinless chicken breasts - that's fine, and they have the strips for "stir fry".


You may want ot feed boneless skinless chicken breasts some but certaninly not exclusevly, particularly in the beginning.



> Should I stick with that for now before I add in bone?


No, bone is a necessary part of the diet, particularly in the beginning.



> Also, the only chicken with bone they had were drumsticks and full breasts with bone. Everything else was smaller (wings, "winglets"??? and thighs)


I'm sure they have chicken leg quarters. Everyplace sells those. Drumsticks, wings, necks, and winglets are all too small for your dog.



> When we head back that way, should I get a thing of just the breast strips?


NO, look for chicken leg quarters and get those. They will be all you need for a couple of weeks.



> And for future, for a dog of her size, are the drumsticks too small?


Yes, definately



> They have turkey drumsticks but I have heard that turkey meat tends to not be the best for doggies


Turkey is great. Turkey drumsticks, necks or wings will all be good but only after a couple of weeks of chicken.



> I was going to get cubed up stew beef, but still came back with nada


I have told you 3 or 4 times by now, its way too early for that. Beef is at least a month down the road.


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## jenh22 (Sep 22, 2009)

If you don't see chicken quarters in the fresh meat section, check the frozen. A lot of stores sell them in 10lbs. bags. 

Not only are quarters the best thing to start out on, they're also one of the cheapest.

All you need to do is let them defrost enough to separate them (if frozen) put each one (or two) in a gallon zip-lock. Put some in the fridge and the rest in the freezer.

When it's time to eat, just dump it out of the bag wherever you plan to feed. (You don't even have to touch it at this point unless she doesn't eat it all) Don't cut it up or do anything to it, just feed as is.


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## jeserf (Oct 20, 2009)

Forgot to check frozen, just checked the meat (which is all prepacked - they only had what I listed, no chicken quarters to be seen in there)

And no, the meat section of my Safeway is not the gross part - the whole store is. As a vegetarian, I find the produce dept pretty offensive, which is why we never go unless it's an emergency. 

I'll pick up some boneless breasts tomorrow evening if they don't have the frozen ones, and if she takes to it, I'll find another store that has the quarters. The only thing 'larger' than that was the full breast (I think double?) and the turkey.

If you don't live in a city, then I'd imagine it's difficult to imagine NOT having a huge grocery store/big box mega-mart. 

Safeway meat is nothing I'd feed a human (and I have no problem with people who eat meat). So what does that tell ya?


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## jeserf (Oct 20, 2009)

Lucy's taken much better to the primal grind. 
We also found a place with chicken quarters - her dad's going to pick some up tonight...$.69/lb. 

Anyone ever worry about the raw poultry (salmonella)? I know if it's decent meat, it should be find, but just wondering. 

Also - random question...
do you find your dog poops really fast after raw? I'm just asking because her "going out" schedule was pretty awesome, so I gather we might have to get used to a new one. How long after your dog eats some raw do you find you have to let them out?

just curious - and no, we don't have a yard (obviously)


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## RawFedDogs (Jun 16, 2008)

jeserf said:


> Anyone ever worry about the raw poultry (salmonella)? I know if it's decent meat, it should be find, but just wondering.


No salmonella is not a problem to dogs. They have a very acidic stomach juices that kill any bacteria injested through the mouth. They also have a short intestinal system that quickly gets the food out of the body. This is the way all carnivores are.



> Also - random question...
> do you find your dog poops really fast after raw? I'm just asking because her "going out" schedule was pretty awesome, so I gather we might have to get used to a new one. How long after your dog eats some raw do you find you have to let them out?


No, I haven't noticed but I don't really notice when my dogs poop either. One thing you will notice pretty quickly after getting off kibble is how small the poops are and odorless also.

Pretty soon you wlll be posting, "my dogs poops are very small. should i give him a laxitive?" :smile: The answer is no, the poops will naturally be small.


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## jeserf (Oct 20, 2009)

I know they're smaller, I live near lots of raw fed dogs. How do I know? No one picks up after 'em. Small, very white. 

Her poop is already small for a big dog...as long as they go, who cares?


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## rannmiller (Jun 27, 2008)

I care! If I'm caught somewhere with no bag and my dog poops, it makes me feel better to know that the poo will just disintegrate in a few days anyway so there really isn't a necessity to pick it up (not that I try to let that happen since I hate it when non-raw-fed dog owners do that with their dogs). Also, if I'm on a walk and my dog poos and I have to carry it with me for any portion of the walk, I'd rather not have some gigantic mound of horrifically smelly mush in the bag bumping into my arm. I also like not having to struggle so much to get the whole giant stool into the bag, because it's so small, it's usually a one-hand operation, which may not seem like much, but I hate scraping it up. It's just gross. You'll see what I mean when it happens for you. 

As far as how often she'll have to go, I'd say it should be as often if not less than when on kibble. She will be digesting it at a different rate, so just try to keep an eye on her, she may not have to go at her regular times anymore but you never know. 

Also, salmonella hasn't been a problem in my house since I started on raw and I've gotten fairly lax about post-feeding sanitation procedures too. But for the most part, if you just make sure to wash your hands and wipe off any countertops the meat came in contact with, you should be fine.


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## jeserf (Oct 20, 2009)

Ah, we're never without bags...and no matter the poop, when you don't pick it up in an urban environment, someone or something steps it in. Not to mention all the dogs that go on the SIDEWALK!!! What?! Why?! 

I have no problem now with Lucy's business. It's a one handed operation for me now, and there are trashcans on almost every corner...it's more that I was wondering if people's dogs are going faster after eating since someone isn't always home with her. 

...waits for someone to say that my dog should never be left alone... heh


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## whiteleo (Sep 7, 2008)

Well, lets say my dogs shouldn't have been left alone while I was vacation, I switched them back to kibble " Acana grasslands grainfree", they drank soooooo much water they couldn't hold it during the day while the petsitter was out doing other dog walks, they peed in the house. Couldn't wait to switch them back to a raw diet when I got home.


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## rannmiller (Jun 27, 2008)

Psh, my dogs are home alone alone all day "guarding" the house and watching TV and they never have a problem going in the house and they eat right before my bf leaves for work. So from about 9 am to 7 or 8 pm, they get no potty breaks and they do fine. So I think you should be fine.


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## jeserf (Oct 20, 2009)

that's good to know! 
She won't have an accident in the house, but I just like her to be comfortable. My neighbor used to leave her dog alone for 10+ hours. I finally said, "what if someone said you couldn't pee for 10 hours?!" She finally got someone to let him out in the middle of the day and you can tell how much happier he is! (ETA he'd have accidents and she would limit the water she left him with)

Tonight, Lucy's getting lightly seared boneless chicken and some eggw/ shells. 

This weekend we're on a quest to find some good chicken bones. Her dad went to two stores today and the largest chicken with bones in were legs/breasts. The doggie nutritionist recommended staying away from those until she 'gets' the bones in her food (eat slower, chew em, etc).


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## rannmiller (Jun 27, 2008)

Oh don't worry too much about her chewing the food. A chicken breast should be big enough, but like i said, those leg quarters should be perfect. She WILL chew them, especially to start. And if she bites off more than she can swallow, she will do something called "reverse swallowing" where the food will just come back up her throat and into her mouth as if to say "Nope, gotta chew first!" (sounds disgusting, I know, but it's not a big deal at all) so she doesn't choke. 

On extremely rare occasions dogs have choked on bones, but those were mostly if they were way too small for them (like drumsticks or necks for big dogs) or weight-bearing bones. 

And don't worry, my dogs still get all the water they want and are always happy to see me when I get home to let them out, so no abuse here :smile:


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## jeserf (Oct 20, 2009)

no no - some dogs can totally hold it...but her dog couldn't so she'd be angry that there were always accidents so to curb them she's try to limit his water intake. 

The nutritionist said that breasts have lots of smaller bones so for chicken, she said stick to the quarters and the back...which sounds about right? And then for drumsticks, stick with turkey. 

I think it's just different when you're somewhat underserved in terms of stores - there's no big box that's convenient to run in to after work, etc. So I have to get used to making do with what the crappy store down the street has (which is turkey drumsticks or boneless chicken) and then find places to get the quarters/backs on weekends...and parts like beef rib and chicken livers aren't hard to find.


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## jeserf (Oct 20, 2009)

rannmiller said:


> On extremely rare occasions dogs have choked on bones, but those were mostly if they were way too small for them (like drumsticks or necks for big dogs) or weight-bearing bones.


what example do you have for the weight bearing bones? 
We regularly give her beef bones as a treat and she's never tried to eat the bone (just gnaws on it a bit). Is that what you mean - the marrow-y ones?


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## DaneMama (Jun 27, 2008)

jeserf said:


> what example do you have for the weight bearing bones?
> We regularly give her beef bones as a treat and she's never tried to eat the bone (just gnaws on it a bit). Is that what you mean - the marrow-y ones?


Dogs can break their teeth on these bones. We no longer give them since one of ours broke one of her teeth on a marrow bone...had to have it extracted. You have to realize that those big marrow bones are made to hold thousand or so pounds up and are not going to give if a dog bites down on it. 

Give beef rib bones instead for a treat. Not only will she get the meat off of it but can gnaw on it a bit too!


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## Lynn In Tenn (Aug 20, 2009)

Weight bearing bones like the femurs of larger animals can cause dogs to break their teeth.


Oooops, Natalie and I must have posted at the same time


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## rannmiller (Jun 27, 2008)

jeserf said:


> no no - some dogs can totally hold it...but her dog couldn't so she'd be angry that there were always accidents so to curb them she's try to limit his water intake.


Well that's stupid. She sets the poor dog up for failure then gets mad at him when he fails! 



jeserf said:


> The nutritionist said that breasts have lots of smaller bones so for chicken, she said stick to the quarters and the back...which sounds about right? And then for drumsticks, stick with turkey.


That's just silly, the bones in chicken breasts are no smaller than the bones in backs. It's like a human ribcage, there's ribs on both sides. I guess the back might have a tiny bit more bone to it, but not so much that it would be dangerous to your dog. That and eventually, your dog will be eating canned fish which has WAY smaller bones, and your dog will be fine with those too. 

I mean, chicken backs and turkey drumsticks are good too, I'm just saying that breasts are fine as well. Jeez this person is way too specific/picky and overcomplicating things.


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## jeserf (Oct 20, 2009)

Last night I quickly seared the boneless skinless chicken breasts and fed them to her with a little yogurt. Ate it up. I think she just swallowed everything. After that, she had a beef marrow bone. When she gets those, she always just eats the meat/licks the marrow out, chews a bit, then we take them up. 

This morning, all raw but, like, 1/4 cup of kibble (not going to just throw it out especially with so little left). 

We have 1 more package of chicken breasts. 

People on here told me to stick with chicken quarters for a while before I give her other bones...heck, if I could give her thighs or drumsticks, they're at every market near me! Not sure any one is more right than not right, I was simply putting everyone's info together.


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## rannmiller (Jun 27, 2008)

Chicken leg quarters are nice because they're so much bigger and cheaper (no one wants that cut of meat!) and it's the drumstick and thigh together, that's why we recommend it so much. Breasts should work just fine too though, they'll just be more expensive since that's a part that everyone loves and wants. 

That's awesome she's making the transition so smoothly, good job!


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## jeserf (Oct 20, 2009)

well, I didn't do it cold turkey. Her stool is a little runny at the ends - I might mix in some pumpkin if it gets worse. 

She does like the primal grinds now, though. 

I don't care about the cost of the meat, which might sound snobby, but since we don't eat any of it it isn't that big of a deal. I think if we were buying meat for a family AND a 90lb dog, it would matter more. 

I'll stick to boneless cuts this week - I'll pick up some boneless thighs - and this weekend we'll find the quarters. I'll toss in some egg and shell for her to get the calcium until we can find better bones. Our store only has Tysons/Purdue unless you buy "Safeway Organics" which are MORE expensive than whole foods. Yes really. How is that possible? This is why so many people call it the Socialist Safeway - the only bet in my immediate part of town. 

Nevermind - Whole Foods has the whole leg, not the quarters. I didn't know there was a difference - the whole quarter has part of the back attached, the leg is just the thigh and leg. 

I gather it doesn't make much of a difference between the two right?


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## rannmiller (Jun 27, 2008)

I never even heard of that before, so there really isn't much of a difference, no. And if you're feeding all that meat with no bone, you are guaranteed to have softer stools so just keep that in mind before adding pumpkin. She'd probably be just fine with chicken thighs, they're really too big to swallow in one gulp anyway so she'd have to do some chewing and should be fine.


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## jeserf (Oct 20, 2009)

she is eating some of the primal grinds, still - so there is more than just chicken breast in her. 

no bathroom evidence, so to speak, since this morning. She'll get bone in her. However, she's currently watching Man Vs Food with the guy eating what looks like 6lbs worth of Philly cheese steak insides and wants to switch to cooked food  (just kidding, obviously)


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## jdatwood (Apr 13, 2009)

jeserf said:


> well, I didn't do it cold turkey. Her stool is a little runny at the ends - I might mix in some pumpkin if it gets worse.


I'm curious, did you actually read RFD's page about RAW feeding and the proper way to switch?
Skylar, Zack, and Abby on the WEB

You're WAY over complicating the process and just creating more problems than you'd have if you just went "cold turkey"


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## jeserf (Oct 20, 2009)

Is that the only web page of raw feeding out there?


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## RawFedDogs (Jun 16, 2008)

jeserf said:


> Is that the only web page of raw feeding out there?


It's the one with the best information.

It's the one that that will switch your dog with the least chance of having digestive problems in the process. There have been well over 100 dogs switched using this method and a couple had minor problems. The rest, no problems at all.

I often get emails and see posts from people that venture off into thier own methods of switching who will say, "my dog has had diarrhea for 3 days. What do I do?" Or "My, dog is vomiting every meal. Raw is just not for my dog." Or "My dog hasn't had a BM is 3 days, what do I do." Or "My dog has started going in the house again."

Dogs switched by this method very rarely have any problem. You can venture off on your own and encounter obsticles and work them out or you can follow the methods developed by very experienced owners and have minimum problems. The choice is completely yours.

Most people want the advice of the ones going before them in order to have a smooth transition. Others just have to find out on their own.


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## rannmiller (Jun 27, 2008)

Trust me, I have searched high and low and RFD's site is not only the easiest one to read and understand, it's also the least complicated one to use in terms of having a method of switching dogs over to raw. When I first got started I was hesitant just like you were, I'd read so much garbage my whole life about dogs needing fruits and veggies that i figured RFD must be a little off his rocker and added some of that crap to my dogs' diets to begin with. Needless to say, I wasn't very impressed with "raw" when my dogs' stools were still super soft and much larger than I'd expected. After a couple weeks of this, I got over it and decided to start over and try RFD's method. Lo and behold, it was MUCH simpler not to have to worry about pulping all these stupid vegetables and adding all this extra crap my dogs weren't digesting anyway. Sure enough, the transition was nice and easy and my dogs are doing great on raw, and it's now so much less complicated now than when I tried to do it my own way.


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## jeserf (Oct 20, 2009)

Took a day off today, we went to the Commissary on base and they had Tyson's quarters. In fact, the only chicken they had was Tysons which stinks. 

But, we have 4 quarters and I'll sear one tonight and give it to her (she doesn't seem too interested in raw chicken)


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## DaneMama (Jun 27, 2008)

jeserf said:


> Took a day off today, we went to the Commissary on base and they had Tyson's quarters. In fact, the only chicken they had was Tysons which stinks.
> 
> But, we have 4 quarters and I'll sear one tonight and give it to her (she doesn't seem too interested in raw chicken)


Chicken is chicken. Your dog is not going to care where you get it. Fresh chicken quarters bought from Walmart in their ten pound bags would be perfect. Anything you get will be a million times better than any chicken used in commercial dog food.


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## jeserf (Oct 20, 2009)

she tried it, licked it, circled it, licked, circled, tried to get the meat off, nope. 

I kept saying to her in my head "put it between your paws!!!" but no, she doesn't have ESP. 

it's sitting in her bowl and in a few, I'll take it up. I don't know if I can NOT feed her. She DID eat the boneless skinless breasts, but I could tell that she did not like them as much as the lamb. 

I did sear it for a few seconds before hand but now she's just whining at me. 

Should I give her the boneless skinless ones an try again tomorrow? Not feed her?


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## jeserf (Oct 20, 2009)

danemama08 said:


> Chicken is chicken. Your dog is not going to care where you get it. Fresh chicken quarters bought from Walmart in their ten pound bags would be perfect. Anything you get will be a million times better than any chicken used in commercial dog food.


I don't like that the larger commercial poultry companies inject stuff into the meat (and c'mon, if you're going to treat your dog in a certain way, don't the dead animals you throw at your dog deserve proper treatment while alive, too?). That's just my personal opinion on what "human grade" means, as I would not feed that type of meat to someone I cared about.


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## SweetKisses (Oct 29, 2009)

Odin has never eaten anything other than raw food. His breeder fed raw meat and I feed him raw meat. He hardly sheds (maybe a few hairs every now and then), has no doggie smell, very healthy, and has very little stool. I am not a fan of kibble at all. I don't like it, it's not good for the dog, it's terrible for the teeth, and I would never feed it to my dog. Raw meat is much better. I do not like pre-made raw food. It is ground, for one, and filled with things that are unnecessary in a dog's diet. If you are going to try raw, don't bother with the pre-made stuff. First switch your dog over to a canned food diet for a week. Then, try adding some ground beef or very small chunks of chicken to the canned food. Next, start by feeding just ground beef or chicken, and some small chunks of meat. Just gradually increase until you are feeding whole products. I feed Odin entire chickens; heads, feathers, feet, skin, all. He gets one chicken a day, but they vary in size from day old chicks to full grown broilers. I will also feed turkey, but not whole turkeys. He gets turkey necks and turkey pieces every now and then. The chunks of turkey include bone, heart, liver, and gizzards sometimes.


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## DaneMama (Jun 27, 2008)

jeserf said:


> I don't like that the larger commercial poultry companies inject stuff into the meat (and c'mon, if you're going to treat your dog in a certain way, don't the dead animals you throw at your dog deserve proper treatment while alive, too?). That's just my personal opinion on what "human grade" means, as I would not feed that type of meat to someone I cared about.


If you can afford to feed free range, organic chicken (and I mean truly free range chicken that grows up on a farm- not the packages that say cage free because cage free is only *very slightly* better than regular chicken and I can go into detail on why if you're interested) kudos to you!!! 

I know that I can't afford to feed chicken that costs $5+ per pound...and chicken is the *cheapest* meat source. That would cost me like $15+ a DAY for my Dane.


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## jeserf (Oct 20, 2009)

non-tyson/purdue doesn't have to be expensive. With all the crap they put in their meat, I don't feel like it's a good value anyway. That, and they treat their chicken farmers so badly it's hard to believe it's legal (and getting worse). 

Anyway - she never took to the chicken on the bone tonight. My boyfriend, who hates meat even more than I do (he's morally opposed to eating it, whereas I just think it's nasty) actually got on all fours, put his face near it, and went MMMM Lucy it's GOOD! 

So, no chicken quarter for her tonight...shrug 

I have 3 left (I put 1 in the freezer) so I can keep trying. Also, some organs were attached (maybe a kidney? it was part of the back) which if she had eaten it would have been good. 

She was just confused, and then frustrated, and now she's angry at us. I'm waiting for her to pee on our bed


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## RawFedDogs (Jun 16, 2008)

This isn't real uncommon, particularly in dogs who has humans trying to get them to eat. The most productive method is to put the quarter down, walk away and watch from accross the room without saying anything to the dog. Don't beg, cajole, order or do anything else to entice the dog to eat. All this does is just confuse the dog and leaving him wondering why the humans are acting so weird.

After 10 minutes of the dog showing no interest, pick up the quarter and put it back in the fridge until next meal time. No treats or between meal snacks. Start the process over next meal time. It won't take but a few times until the dog starts to eat. 

Don't get the attitude you are starving your dog. You aren't. You are offering the dog food at each meal time. It is the dog choosing to eat or not. Soon he will be getting real happy around meal time. My dogs still do a happy dance as I'm preparing each meal and they have been eating raw for 7 years. Meal time is a big deal for them and a highlight of their day.

Just be patient and let the dog learn to eat real food.


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## jeserf (Oct 20, 2009)

Yeah, we'll have to do that. 
At first I was simply sitting on the patio trying to watch her. She'd lick, some by and sit next to me, I'd tell her, "go see!"

she got a little bit of it off, but I think she was just frustrated. 

I don't really have time in the AM to wait around for her to eat (you know, work and all) - should I stick with the boneless/skinless in the a.m? 

I suppose I can try it before our morning walk and then try again after. 

Since she's been eating the boneless, I figured she'd want the other. But I knew she struggled with the chicken in the texture and taste - but I want her to have SOME bone for her poo's sake!


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## RawFedDogs (Jun 16, 2008)

jeserf said:


> Yeah, we'll have to do that.
> At first I was simply sitting on the patio trying to watch her. She'd lick, some by and sit next to me, I'd tell her, "go see!"


I think she is probably still confused as to exactly what she is to do with it. Just let her be and she'll figure it out.



> I don't really have time in the AM to wait around for her to eat (you know, work and all) - should I stick with the boneless/skinless in the a.m?


It's best to put the same food back out until she eats it. In a few days as she gets used to it she will eat pretty fast. My Danes eat a chicken quarter in less than 30 seconds.



> Since she's been eating the boneless, I figured she'd want the other. But I knew she struggled with the chicken in the texture and taste - but I want her to have SOME bone for her poo's sake!


She probably wants it, just not sure what to do with it. This is very temporary. Have patience. It won't take long. In the whole scheme of things, it will be in the blink of an eye. :smile:


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## jeserf (Oct 20, 2009)

how long do you let them not eat?


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## RawFedDogs (Jun 16, 2008)

The obvious answer to that is "until they eat". A dog will not let himself starve to death in the presence of food. I have heard of dogs taking 5 days to begin but a day or two is most common.


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## rannmiller (Jun 27, 2008)

One morning my littler dog, Milo decided to act weird to my boyfriend and not eat when he fed him. So he put the food back in the fridge and went to work and Milo went hungry. I came home on my lunch break around 2 pm and offered him the same food, left him in the backyard with it, he stared at me til I left, saw I wasn't coming back for him, and gobbled it right up. Sometimes you just have to leave them alone and wait em out! Just stick with what we tell you and she'll get it eventually. If you give in and give her the boneless skinless breasts, you're teaching her to be picky, so don't give in!


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## jeserf (Oct 20, 2009)

No interest in it this a.m either. Left her on the balcony with it this morning while I got dressed for work. Nope. She came back in and sat on the sofa. 

I don't have the ability to leave her outside all day with it. But no one was watching her. 

Oh well.


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## rannmiller (Jun 27, 2008)

She had access to the house while on the balcony? Try to close the door next time, then she doesn't have the opportunity to be distracted and come back in. Don't worry, she'll get it! And remember, no food in between!


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## jeserf (Oct 20, 2009)

um...ok. 

Does anyone think it's odd to try to starve your dog in to not liking something? Is it possible that she doesn't like chicken and I should maybe try another type of bone?


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## rannmiller (Jun 27, 2008)

But she ate the chicken just fine when it wasn't on the bone. She just doesn't know how to eat it. When she figures out how to eat it, then she will like it. If you really want to try another type of meat with bone in it though, I guess you could try pork ribs. They have a somewhat decent amount of meat on them, might be good for teaching her how to eat bones, I guess. The nice part about chicken bones is that they're so much softer and easier to get through than other bones. I'd still give it another couple of days though. 

A dog isn't going to starve to death in 4 or 5 days and most of them are hungry enough that they break down and eat around or before then, though the particularly stubborn ones can hold out a full week if they're really determined. But a healthy dog won't let itself starve, so don't worry about that. 

Also, as RFD said, *you aren't starving her if you're offering her food at every meal*. If you had a picky child who was raised on McDonald's her whole life and one day you decided to start feeding her healthy, home cooked meals and that child refused to eat it even though you spent time and money on this new and healthier diet for her and you _knew_ it was better for her, would you just give in and buy her a Big Mac after a day or two? Would you give her french fries and McFlurries in between meals so she didn't "starve?"


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## jeserf (Oct 20, 2009)

I'll keep trying the chicken. 

she knows how to eat bones in that she's been given marrow bones (and things that are bone-line...bully sticks, for example) as long as I have had her. 

I tried to cut pieces of the chicken almost off so it'd be easier for her to get the meat off the bone and encourage her to keep going, but no. lick lick, sniff sniff, walk away. 

Anyway, another try tonight. 

She better go for it because her breath is starting to stink. heh


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## jeserf (Oct 20, 2009)

Another no go tonight 

I put the baby gate up so she couldn't come inside, she just went to the edge of the balcony and took her "observation" spot and ignored the meat. 

I gave her some ice cubes to make sure she was consuming enough moisture 

That's three attempts so far. 

Tomorrow, I think I'll trim the fat (which when we handed her some of the fat/skin - I can't tell the difference - she spit it out each time...it was kind of funny) and sear it again to see if that helps.


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