# Diet after surviving parvo?



## hcdoxies

Someone contacted me who just started feeding raw. Their puppy survived parvo (yay!) and they want to about his diet. My first thought is NO RAW MEAT... Right? We feed PMR to healthy dogs, but her puppy's digestive and immune system, for now, is really messed up. So what should she feed him - and how long will it take to get him back to normal and to be fed PMR?


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## catahoulamom

I am thinking a limited ingredient canned food, but I'm no expert. Interested in reading what others have to say.


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## Liz

Absolutely feed raw. Put this put on raw, easy on the fat and give Primal Defense Ultra (1 cap a day), L Glutamine (1 cap per day) and Bovine colostrum (1 cap per day) He does not need synthetic food to further stress his healing gut and compromised immune system. Please give him raw and these supplements for at least 2 months.


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## Liz

Do whatever you like HC the parvo pups we have worked with the last five years were treated the way I told you and they did great. I have no stake in this. I just have experience. Hope he gets better. Eggs, canned food and kibble may also throw his delicate digestion into gastroenteritis. But anyway let us know how he does.


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## Fundog

Liz, what about yogurt? I've read from other holistic raw feeders who often recommend feeding a teaspoon of plain yogurt each day to help restore the healthy flora in the gut for dogs who have been ill.

Also, I was thinking... if you're really not comfortable feeding raw to a puppy who has been so sick, maybe you could just par-boil the food and serve it as a soup? (add a little bone meal powder) If he is still not able to take solids, you can puree the soup in the blender once it has cooled. As his tolerance for food increases, you can gradually work up to getting him back on raw. 

Definitely include some probiotic supplements to further the intestinal healing, though!


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## Liz

The Primal Defense is a more powerful probiotic because he has been so compromised. Just a belly ache or gassy tummy maybe the yogurt would do but he really needs higher numbers in his probiotics.  JMHO If they feel better parboiling that is still better than canned or kibble at this stage. I assumed he was a raw fed pup. Thought he was on of HC Doxies.


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## Chocx2

My boy pictured here had parvo, and was treated for almost a week with IV's, blood, plazma, my little boy, I almost lost him. While on Kibble I would have to beg him to eat, well he has been on raw for years now, he is five, I think he was about 2 when I changed him completely over, he loves raw. I do give him probiotics every meal and Colostrum which I think helps him a lot.


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## naturalfeddogs

If this were my pup, I would do raw, but start very slowly with small amounts to begin with. Regardless of kibble or raw, the pup is going to have to very slowly, only raw is going to really strengthen the immune system stronger in the long run. Just remember, SLOW. A natural, species appropriate diet will do wonders.


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## pogo

IF it were my pup i would totally do raw, small amounts often through the day like you would an underweight dog, definitely add the sups Liz recommended and hope he recovers soon


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## hcdoxies

Thanks everyone! I just assumed that with a compromised immune system (from parvo attacking it) that the puppy's system would be at risk eating raw.

Still hoping to hear more opinions!


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## naturalfeddogs

That's why it's suggested to go slow. To give the dogs body time to adjust, and slowly build up immunity. Raw is so species appropriate, it's going to build the immune system stronger than a chemical filled kibble. Also, it would be good to use the supplements Liz mentioned.


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## kathylcsw

I have never been in this position but I think I would go with raw. So many dog foods get recalled for salmonella contamination too so where would be the benefit? As others have said kibble has so many chemicals and that would seem to be potentially harmful to the puppy as well.


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## Liz

HC - kibble and processed food take longer for a dog to digest making all the bacteria fester in that digestive tract longer as he is already compromised. Raw is processed quickly, efficiently and he gets the most nutrients out of his food. The supplements both heal the gut (L Glutamine) replace gut flora (Primal Defense) and build the immune system (bovine colostrum) The food is nourishing in a natural and gentle manner. 

I honestly see this as saying my kid is recovering from a major illness - let's get some junk food because it is softer. Make a broth, feed real food let food be part of his medicine. JMHO


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## hcdoxies

schism said:


> May I ask what PROOF you have that all kibble is "chemical filled"? Sorry to hijack for a moment but that statement irks me.
> OP- go to a professional for this type of advice. You don't want to take a chance simply because so and so said it was ok  good luck


I consider my fellow seasoned raw feeders far more knowledgeable than most veterinarians.

Liz - that's an excellent point that I forgot about - how long the raw vs kibble takes to digest.

The puppy is still on pedialyte and is back in a little bit of raw (exclusively). Eating well, just not as much as usual. Thanks for all the advice!


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## creek817

hcdoxies said:


> Thanks everyone! I just assumed that with a compromised immune system (from parvo attacking it) that the puppy's system would be at risk eating raw.
> 
> Still hoping to hear more opinions!


I feel like with a compromised immune system, kibble would put the puppy more at risk. I'm with Liz (big surprise!), bovine colostrum and the probiotics, and definitely raw!


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## doggoblin

schism said:


> May I ask what PROOF you have that all kibble is "chemical filled"?


How many kibbles list artificial preservatives? What are they if not artificially produced chemicals? What about vitamins added after rendering?

Not all kibbles do contain artificial preservatives though but do your research on dogs requirement for carbohydrates and how they are processed by a dog. Look up things like gluconeogenesis, homeostasis, High and Low Glycemic Index and their potential effects on things like insulin levels. Even carbohydrates are chemicals which dogs do not need and aren't listed in the canine nutrient profiles. What % of kibble is carbohydrates? What happens if a dog needs to process things more than normal? Pancreas, kidneys and liver are all given more work.

What PROOF do you have that the opinions based specifically on experience is wrong? Bear in mind even now professionals often push low protein diets on dogs suffering kidney problems which the latest scientific evidence now shows to be false.

Don't get me wrong, I would be concerned with an immune deficient dog feeding raw and would research it carefully. I'd get opinions from various sources paying note to those with experience. Then again judging from our own dogs with allergies and frequent vet visits when on kibble I wouldn't say the immune system was up to scratch then.

By all means raise your concerns but I would suggest you do so less confrontationally. Your message is lost in the process. So called professionals are also a "so and so who says something", sometimes with no actual experience of the problem themselves.


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## doggoblin

schism said:


> I understand if we were discussing Ol Roy, Alpo or Beneful... but not all kibble is made the same.


And the high levels of carbohydrates? You seem to ignore that. Have you read http://files.championpetfoods.com/ORIJEN_White_Paper.pdf explaining it's reasoning for how it produces it's kibble. One of the key points is


> In order to form the kibble and provide the structure to hold together meats and fats, all dry pet foods require some form of carbohydrate


Not because it's required nutritionally, it admits it's not. It then explains that they reduce the impact


> Instead of high-glycemic grains such as rice, wheat and corn, Biologically Appropriate pet foods use fruits & vegetables.
> While providing the limited carbohydrates needed to form a kibble, fruits & vegetables contain health-boosting vitamins, minerals, fibers and other substances called phytochemicals, in natural, bio-available form.


So if you take a high end kibble manufacturer's recommendations you can add how many kibbles to your Ol Roy, Alpo or Beneful?

I'll agree there are more and more kibbles coming out, certainly here in Europe which are trying to match the dietary needs of dogs rather than enforce what they want to sell by clever marketing. The fact remains carbohydrates (chemical compounds) are not required and certainly not at the levels in which kibble has them. 

Nobody has said it's a poisonous stew. Only that it can have an detrimental effect. You yourself admit whole food is better than processed food. So what is wrong with this statement. If processed food has no detrimental effect why is whole food better? 

I've done a lot of research on dog nutrition, like many raw feeders. On another site I belong to it's the raw feeders who often advise on dry food if people don't want to feed raw for whatever reason. If someone asks about dry food in a thread raw isn't mentioned. Partly because raw/dry/wet feeding methods are all together in the same section. Here I don't go into the dry food section and ask for proof that their views, whatever they are, are justified. I expect kibble feeders to show me the same respect.


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## Kat

Of course I am with Liz on this one too. I listened to Liz's way over my vets way when it came to lowering my girls liver enzymes. Vet wanted to put her on a few different antibiotics, and some pills. I did a natural liver detox and in 2 months her liver enzymes went down by 50%. 

Primal defence ultra and colostrum are great to have on hand. 

Out of curiosity, why is the pup on pedialyte? I don't know anything about parvovirus, does it cause dehydration and stuff? Recently, I discovered that coconut water is a natural version of pedialyte, so I keep that in my medicine cabinet over pedialyte now.

If the owners of the dog are too scared of bacteria that is on raw meat, maybe drop the meat in boiling water for a few seconds to cook just the very outside layer of the meat for the first week or two to get their system used to the new diet?


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## Liz

Kat dehydration is one of the symptoms of Parvo and a cause of deaths in the very young or the seniors especially. HC Doxies if he is beginning to eat let him go slow and just feed often. He has come through the worst of it but his stomach is very unsettled. Weight will be gained at a nice slow pace and and the pup will thrive if they go slow and help him along.


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## Kat

schism said:


> I find it alarming that people are giving advice when they do not know what parvovirus does to a dog's system.
> I say again to the OP- I would go to a professional. Nutritionist.


I'm not giving advice, I'm giving my input. The OPs friend will decide in the end what they want to do with their dog. The OP is here to get different opinions from members. It's not like we are telling them what to do, in the end it is their decision.


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## Gally

schism said:


> How are carbohydrates, from known sources, chemicals? If I eat a potato then I am consuming a chemical? I'm not understanding....


I don't know what the previous posters were trying to get at with their statement about chemicals in kibble but yes if you eat a potato you are technically consuming chemicals. Scientifically speaking all matter is made of chemicals. "A chemical substance is a form of matter that has constant chemical composition and characteristic properties. It cannot be separated into components by physical separation methods."

If they were talking about harmful chemicals, maybe they meant things like pesticides, arsenic, or mercury which are present in many foods. Most pet foods don't use organic ingredients and even organic foods can become contaminated from the soil, air, water etc. Of course this applies to raw as well...

Or perhaps the added vitamins and minerals which are usually added to dog food after initial processing to make up for the loss of nutrients during processing. These vitamins/minerals are often synthetic and many dog food companies use pre-mixes made overseas. Or maybe they were refering to the preservatives, either synthetic or natural that are added to kibble to keep it fresh on the shelf.


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## JLeigh

schism said:


> Fair enough. Although, giving opinions/advice: one may be lead to believe that your advice is from a seriously educated stance.


A couple of things: This forum is comprised mainly of pet owners such as myself. I'm assuming the OP knows this, and yet still asked for input. So, members are giving the requested input. Also, people can be very educated on different topics without having a "formal" education on those topics.


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## Roo

> I don't know what the previous posters were trying to get at with their statement about chemicals in kibble but yes if you eat a potato you are technically consuming chemicals. Scientifically speaking all matter is made of chemicals. "A chemical substance is a form of matter that has constant chemical composition and characteristic properties. It cannot be separated into components by physical separation methods."
> 
> If they were talking about harmful chemicals, maybe they meant things like pesticides, arsenic, or mercury which are present in many foods. Most pet foods don't use organic ingredients and even organic foods can become contaminated from the soil, air, water etc. Of course this applies to raw as well...
> 
> Or perhaps the added vitamins and minerals which are usually added to dog food after initial processing to make up for the loss of nutrients during processing. These vitamins/minerals are often synthetic and many dog food companies use pre-mixes made overseas. Or maybe they were refering to the preservatives, either synthetic or natural that are added to kibble to keep it fresh on the shelf.


Or maybe they meant the chemicals produced during the cooking process like possibly Acrylamide in potatoes, (if you cook them at certain temperatures)?

Or polycyclic aromatic hydrocarbons (PAHs), and Heterocyclic amines (HCAs) in specific dry foods with certain high temperatures and cooking methods?
Mutagenic activity and heterocyclic amine carcinog... [Mutat Res. 2003] - PubMed - NCBI

I agree it can be hard to avoid chemicals.


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## Roo

> This is why I don't always use potatoes. I use peas, tapioca, grains, pulses. I alternate not only my proteins but my fillers as well. I would recommend all kibble feeders do the same.


If you knew, why ask about the potato and chemicals then? PAH's and HCA's refers to high heat cooked meats.


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## Liz

Well my answer was for a raw feeder. 

1 - This is the raw section hence the advice. If you notice I do not give advice in the kibble section not because I have never fed kibble but because since feeding raw have not kept up on new formulations and changes. 

2 - Advice was asked. OP is not an idiot she is respected in dog circles. If she felt the need for a vet I am sure she would seek a vets advice. 

3 - No one is being forced to do anything. A question was answered specifically and succinctly. 

4 - I did not once mention "chemicals" I state that processed food would not be something I chose to give to a dog in need of healing.

5 - This is the raw section and yet no one bashed kibble but Schism has taken up the fight for kibble. Fight all you want. This was off topic and not helpful in any way to the OP.

HC Doxies please keep us posted on the little pups progress and remind them to go slow.


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## Chocx2

schism my vet advised me not to feed raw, I tried all kinds of kibble when he was sick, he has done well on raw, probiotics and colostrum some diets just fit, and thats what the vet said to me she never once said that his system was compromised and could not handle bacteria. She says that he has thrived on his diet


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## naturalfeddogs

Gally said:


> I don't know what the previous posters were trying to get at with their statement about chemicals in kibble but yes if you eat a potato you are technically consuming chemicals. Scientifically speaking all matter is made of chemicals. "A chemical substance is a form of matter that has constant chemical composition and characteristic properties. It cannot be separated into components by physical separation methods."
> 
> If they were talking about harmful chemicals, maybe they meant things like pesticides, arsenic, or mercury which are present in many foods. Most pet foods don't use organic ingredients and even organic foods can become contaminated from the soil, air, water etc. Of course this applies to raw as well...
> 
> Or perhaps the added vitamins and minerals which are usually added to dog food after initial processing to make up for the loss of nutrients during processing. These vitamins/minerals are often synthetic and many dog food companies use pre-mixes made overseas. Or maybe they were refering to the preservatives, either synthetic or natural that are added to kibble to keep it fresh on the shelf.



Pretty much all of the above you listed.


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## hcdoxies

Just an update...

Puppy is fine. He is eating well, drinking well, etc. He's eating ground chicken, turkey, pork, beef, organ and bone mix (all natural from Reel Raw). And yes, parvo causes severe dehydration and that is primarily what kills puppies. So pedialyte helps to restore the fluids lost.

He is still drinking water mixed with unflavored pedialyte.

He's eating less than he normally would, but is very excited to eat. Getting there!


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## Liz

Sounds like he is doing great! Parvo really does a number on the gut. We have a new strain out here that hit several shows. So far all the dogs affected have been healthy, fully vaccinated young adults. HC Doxies - you might want to check coconut water out instead of pedialyte. It has slightly more nutrients and electrolytes than pedialyte. Easier to keep and smaller bottles so very little if any waste. I hated opening a $6 pedialyte and using a cup and having to throw the rest out when it got cloudy.


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