# ok, let's try this again



## bett (Mar 15, 2012)

earthborn primitive natural grain free

does this seem ok for 2 of my 3 (not rex with the diamond, liver issue)

Turkey Meal, Chicken Meal, Potatoes, Chicken Fat (preserved with mixed tocopherols), Whitefish Meal, Dried Egg Product, Tomato Pomace, Peas, Blueberry Fiber, Cranberry Fiber, Apples, Blueberries, Carrots, Spinach, Cranberries, Potassium Chloride, Choline Chloride, DL-Methionine, L-Lysine, Taurine, Beta-Carotene, L-Carnitine, Vitamin A Supplement, Vitamin D3 Supplement, Vitamin E Supplement, Zinc Sulfate, Ferrous Sulfate, Niacin, Folic Acid, Biotin, Manganese Sulfate, Copper Sulfate, Salt, Calcium Pantothenate, Thiamine Mononitrate, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride, Riboflavin Supplement, L-Ascorbyl-2-Polyphosphate (source of Vitamin C), Zinc Proteinate, Manganese Proteinate, Copper Proteinate, Calcium Iodate, Sodium Selenite, Cobalt Carbonate, Vitamin B12 Supplement, Yucca Schidgera Extract, Rosemary Extract, Dried Lactobacillus Plantarum Fermentation Product, Dried Enterococcus Faecium Fermentation Product, Dried Lactobacillus Casei Fermentation Product, Dried Lactobacillus Acidophilus Fermentation Product.



Crude Protein, not less than	38.00%
Crude Fat, not less than	20.00%
Crude Fiber, not more than	2.50%
Moisture, not more than	10.00%
Vitamin E, not less than	250 IU/kg
Docosahexaenoic Acid (DHA), not less than	0.05%*
Omega-6 Fatty Acids, not less than	3.30%*
Omega-3 Fatty Acids, not less than	0.40%*
L-Carnitine, not less than	15 mg/kg*


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## monster'sdad (Jul 29, 2012)

Not in my world...no marine-based omega 3's, worthless whitefish meal, bad ratios of fatty acids, no variety of fat, bad fiber mix, and nosebleeding ash for house dogs which tells me the protein is overstated from bone content.

Bett, you can do much better than that. And you live in a place where you can buy any food on the market.

What are the breeds, ages, weights and are they spayed or neutered.


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## bett (Mar 15, 2012)

Keep in mind, each of those two dogs get supplements- fish oil, at times organic coconut oil, vit e, either non fat greek yogurt or non fat cottage cheese or a slice of sweet potato, vangie gets a cran cap and chinese herbs for spay incontinence, and i cant remember if there's anything else.tho they're labs, kind of couch potatoes.those two were from guiding eyes who feeds either iams or eukenuba but i got them off that as soon as the bag was done.
I also give them canned sardines, or salmon and eggs.not daily but weekly.
Dont know if you know my diamond story but long story short, we nearly lost rex to liver failure. He's just turned 11, and in june, the internist prepared us for 'a couple of months'.
I've had them ( not rex,he's a whole other low protein story) on fromm's grain free( rotated between 2 different ones). Trying to stay away from gmo( canola oil, etc) and have already made myself nuts.
I know you like dr tims but i feel theres too much fat for my non active dogs.
They're doing well on the earthborn but the high ash is freaking me out, a bit.

And i have major issues with recalls , thanks to our diamond experience.
I've done some raw( nick is a butcher) but vangie doest do well with it.nick is also 'weird' about all bones ( chicken and turkey necks dont freak him out, as well as raw meaty bones) but then i'd have to feed rex elsewhere because he is a goat.
Ok, enuff rambling, i think you get the picture.


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## DaViking (Sep 27, 2011)

bett said:


> I know you like dr tims but i feel theres too much fat for my non active dogs.


Primitive Natural GF 3800 kcal/kg, 20% fat, 8 - 14% ash. Dr Tims Kinesis GF 3750 kcal/kg, 18% fat, 6.5% ash


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## bett (Mar 15, 2012)

DaViking said:


> Primitive Natural GF 3800 kcal/kg, 20% fat, 8 - 14% ash. Dr Tims Kinesis GF 3750 kcal/kg, 18% fat, 6.5% ash


Dr tims has canola oil. That's my predicament.


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## monster'sdad (Jul 29, 2012)

You add lots of stuff. So I would use a pretty basic food. You seem concerned about the fat content so why even think of Earthborn Primitive?

Anyway, because they are not active you are better off with a food with 25% - 30% protein and about 15% fat.

Kinesis, Annamaet Encore, RC Labrador, Exclusive Chicken & Rice, Precise Chicken & Rice, Merrick Classic Chicken (new one) there are so many.

If you didn't add so much stuff you could use a 30/20.

I really would stay away from Primitive Natural for dogs like that and I would not give them coconut oil either. That is just empty calories.


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## monster'sdad (Jul 29, 2012)

bett said:


> Dr tims has canola oil. That's my predicament.


Who cares? It is not GMO, and neither is the Canola Oil in Earthborn. Who told you all Canola is GMO?

Bett, even if you didn't like Canol Oil because its a plant oil, its the 26th ingredient in Kinesis GF and the 22nd ingredient in reguar Kinesis.

Clearly I don't have the formula but if there only are few tablespoons in the whole bag I wouldn't be shocked. Its near the vitamins.


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## Sheltielover25 (Jan 18, 2011)

monster'sdad said:


> Who cares? It is not GMO, and neither is the Canola Oil in Earthborn. Who told all you Canola is GMO?


Can you prove it's not GMO? It sure doesn't say organic?


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## DaViking (Sep 27, 2011)

bett said:


> Dr tims has canola oil. That's my predicament.


I'll guarantee you that the turkey and chicken in Earthborn formulas have been fed gmo corn based animal feed all their life.


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## monster'sdad (Jul 29, 2012)

Sheltielover25 said:


> Can you prove it's not GMO? It sure doesn't say organic?


Yeah I asked the same question to all the companies that make food at Ohio Pet and it was the same answer. One even sent me the spec sheet and it was easy to cross-check the seed.

And that plant is EU Cert.

SheltieLuvr, you love to scare people and last time you started this about Canola Oil you ignored all the facts that the NON-GMO crop is larger globally than the GMO crop.

Has nothing to do with whether something is organic, it is the cultivar.

The market is awash in NON-GMO canola oil. You can buy tons of it.


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## monster'sdad (Jul 29, 2012)

DaViking said:


> I'll guarantee you that the turkey and chicken in Earthborn formulas have been fed gmo corn based animal feed all their life.


And have been given antiobiotics. Dr. Tim's chicken is antibiotic free, just like Annamaet's.


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## bett (Mar 15, 2012)

you are correct that i have no clue what the animal has been fed. but canola oil is not something i want in the food. i'll investigate the others because i'm sure there must be a reason i didnt buy them. 
and yes, the earthborn gf is high calorie. they each get 3/4 cup 2x per day.
i dont want to be a pita but i am trying to at least only have 2 different foods to feed the 3 dogs. rex is closer to me cooking for him but the others dont need low protein, as he does.
thanks and i'm gonna be busy for a bit, but will be back.


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## monster'sdad (Jul 29, 2012)

bett said:


> you are correct that i have no clue what the animal has been fed. but canola oil is not something i want in the food. i'll investigate the others because i'm sure there must be a reason i didnt buy them.
> and yes, the earthborn gf is high calorie. they each get 3/4 cup 2x per day.
> i dont want to be a pita but i am trying to at least only have 2 different foods to feed the 3 dogs. rex is closer to me cooking for him but the others dont need low protein, as he does.
> thanks and i'm gonna be busy for a bit, but will be back.



Well its up to you but you are just being mislead about canola oil. Almost all the GMO crop is used in industry and to make bio-diesel.

Canola oil is used a lot because it is well balanced. It looks to me like in Dr. Tim's it is used as the vitamin carrier.


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## bett (Mar 15, 2012)

ok, i checked out, quickly and each one has something i dont like-canola oil, rosemary extract, corn gluten, and merrick has had recalls. i am "recall phobic" and seriously thinking of fromm grain free. never a recall in that company.
i appreciate all the help and if anyone thinks of anything else, please, feel free.


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## monster'sdad (Jul 29, 2012)

bett said:


> ok, i checked out, quickly and each one has something i dont like-canola oil, rosemary extract, corn gluten, and merrick has had recalls. i am "recall phobic" and seriously thinking of fromm grain free. never a recall in that company.
> i appreciate all the help and if anyone thinks of anything else, please, feel free.


Even Crisco Canola Oil is Non-GMO.

Fromm use Pea Protein, how do you know those peas aren't GMO? Those peas aren't sweet peas. There are 8 varietes of GMO field peas (beans).

By the way, Fromm is permitted to use GMO ingredients. Can anyone guaranty they don't?


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## DaViking (Sep 27, 2011)

bett said:


> ok, i checked out, quickly and each one has something i dont like-canola oil, rosemary extract, corn gluten, and merrick has had recalls. i am "recall phobic" and seriously thinking of fromm grain free. never a recall in that company.
> i appreciate all the help and if anyone thinks of anything else, please, feel free.


Corn gluten is a balancer and a way better option than to use multiple animal meals high in ash. However, if the food uses multiple high quality low ash animal meals to balance the amino acid profile resulting in an overall low ash profile that is in most cases the preferable way. Still, they can not compete ash wise against some formulas who uses protein isolates/concentrates, those are typically in the 4% range. If a formula uses protein concentrates and still is in the 7 to 10% ash range something is up.


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## monster'sdad (Jul 29, 2012)

DaViking said:


> Corn gluten is a balancer and a way better option than to use multiple animal meals high in ash. However, if the food uses multiple high quality low ash animal meals to balance the amino acid profile resulting in an overall low ash profile that is in most cases the preferable way. Still, they can not compete ash wise against some formulas who uses protein isolates/concentrates, those are typically in the 4% range. If a formula uses protein concentrates and still is in the 7 to 10% ash range something is up.


Corn Gluten is much safer than Pea Protein. It has been used for 50 years, Pea Protein there is not one study on it.


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## DaViking (Sep 27, 2011)

"the canola plant has been modified, not the oil. So canola *oil from the herbicide tolerant plant is exactly the same safe and healthy oil as canola oil from conventional plants*. The *modification has been made to only one canola gene and it is a protein*. *Processing removes all proteins from canola oil*. That means *canola oil made from GM seed is conventional canola oil*."

Canola: The Myths Debunked - Canola Council of Canada


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## SaharaNight Boxers (Jun 28, 2011)

@bett

I believe all the Acana Regionals minus the Pacifica are canola oil free.


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## monster'sdad (Jul 29, 2012)

DaViking said:


> "the canola plant has been modified, not the oil. So canola *oil from the herbicide tolerant plant is exactly the same safe and healthy oil as canola oil from conventional plants*. The *modification has been made to only one canola gene and it is a protein*. *Processing removes all proteins from canola oil*. That means *canola oil made from GM seed is conventional canola oil*."
> 
> Canola: The Myths Debunked - Canola Council of Canada


That is all true but the global crop of NON-GMO canola oil is actually larger. People seem to think all Canola Oil is from Round-Up ready plants. 

Can you imagine what the alternative is? Like 25 years ago, massive amounts of really dangerous chemicals were poured on crops. GMO crops are a walk in the park compared to what used to be used.


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## bett (Mar 15, 2012)

Genetic Roulette Free Screening: Vote Today! | Institute for Responsible Technology |

it's long and sickening.
i have no guarantees about pea protein, what the animals were fed, or anything else. i guess one can always point out something distasteful about anything i didnt grow or feed myself. i'm just trying to do the best i can, for my dogs. 
no different than any of us, i'm thinking. didnt mean to start a whole , bid deal.
but, i dont like gmo crops. my opinion.


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## monster'sdad (Jul 29, 2012)

bett said:


> Genetic Roulette Free Screening: Vote Today! | Institute for Responsible Technology |
> 
> it's long and sickening.
> i have no guarantees about pea protein, what the animals were fed, or anything else. i guess one can always point out something distasteful about anything i didnt grow or feed myself. i'm just trying to do the best i can, for my dogs.
> ...


I just tried to look at that. I noticed the guy behind it is from Fairfield, Iowa.

It is typical of Farfield, Iowa. I know that town very well and would not listen to a word from it. I will talk to you offline about what goes on there.

You are excluding great products because of irrational and unfounded fears. Canola oil has been studied for decades and even in paranoid Europe has been used for years and years in baby formula.

To the credit of the USDA, it was delayed here until recently for use in baby formula.

*"Danone’s scientific GRAS panel looked at the chemical and nutritional composition of canola oil, preclinical feeding studies in neonatal pigs using canola oil with varying levels of erucic acid, clinical studies with infants fed formulas containing canola oil comprising up to 40% of total fats, and uses of canola oil in infant formulas in Europe. Based on this information, the panel concluded that canola oil, when produced in compliance with current good manufacturing practices and meeting food grade specifications, is GRAS under the conditions of its intended use."*


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## DaViking (Sep 27, 2011)

bett said:


> i have no guarantees about pea protein, what the animals were fed, or anything else. i guess one can always point out something distasteful about anything i didnt grow or feed myself. i'm just trying to do the best i can, for my dogs.
> no different than any of us, i'm thinking. didnt mean to start a whole , bid deal.
> but, i dont like gmo crops. my opinion.


I can appreciate it from an idealistic point of view. Personally I think idealistic views on food production becomes a little too simplistic and selfish so I prefer to be pragmatic on a case by case basis. In the case of canola/rapeseed the positive outweighs the negatives imo and the oil is exactly the same as oil from a non GM plant. So in terms of food safety and nutrition one is identical to the other. If faced with having to choose between product A with lesser quality proteins and formulation but no canola and product B with good quality proteins and a well formulated food but with canola I would choose product B all day long. To me it's a no brainer but I understand that not everyone will follow that logic.


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## monster'sdad (Jul 29, 2012)

Completely agree. Just imagine if people just ate less and didn't smoke and walked everyday. There would be no motivation to blame things like canola oil.

I have only noticed much healthier chickens over the years even with the GMO soy and corn in the chicken feeds. So apparantly there is no smoking gun.


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## bett (Mar 15, 2012)

just imagine if roundup didnt exist. 

i now try and buy everything organic. can i always? no, but i try.
i appreciate all your help.


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## DaViking (Sep 27, 2011)

bett said:


> just imagine if roundup didnt exist.


Roundup is used more broadly than you probably know. It's been around for a long time and is not only used for Roundup ready crops. It's used in conventional farming too. Heck, farmers from the smallest mom and dad outfit to the biggest industrial farms would probably have slit their wrists in frustration if they didn't have Roundup or similar to use on their farms.


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## monster'sdad (Jul 29, 2012)

bett said:


> just imagine if roundup didnt exist.
> 
> i now try and buy everything organic. can i always? no, but i try.
> i appreciate all your help.


If RoundUp didn't exist farmers would still be using arsenic-based herbacides rather than RoundUp.

I hope you don't play golf because your exposure to herbacides is many times what you would encounter in a farmer's field.


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## bett (Mar 15, 2012)

monster'sdad said:


> If RoundUp didn't exist farmers would still be using arsenic-based herbacides rather than RoundUp.
> 
> I hope you don't play golf because your exposure to herbacides is many times what you would encounter in a farmer's field.


Not to worry. I dont play golf.


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## bett (Mar 15, 2012)

DaViking said:


> Roundup is used more broadly than you probably know. It's been around for a long time and is not only used for Roundup ready crops. It's used in conventional farming too. Heck, farmers from the smallest mom and dad outfit to the biggest industrial farms would probably have slit their wrists in frustration if they didn't have Roundup or similar to use on their farms.


Im aware. I watched that video.
Some of the farmers in india are slitting their wrists.


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## monster'sdad (Jul 29, 2012)

bett said:


> Im aware. I watched that video.
> Some of the farmers in india are slitting their wrists.


Bett, someday I will tell you all about guys like that from Fairfield, Iowa.


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## DaViking (Sep 27, 2011)

bett said:


> Im aware. I watched that video.
> Some of the farmers in india are slitting their wrists.


Ppl are slitting their wrist on the alter of Facebook's bottom line too if that's the direction you want to take. Not really the point I was making but whatever. I have seen pretty much all of these kinds of movies in recent years. My bottom line isn't that all big business somehow related to food production comes without problems, far from it. But my message is don't be simplistic and gullible.


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## bett (Mar 15, 2012)

DaViking said:


> Ppl are slitting their wrist on the alter of Facebook's bottom line too if that's the direction you want to take. Not really the point I was making but whatever.


I do believe i got your point but not sure you got mine.
But, thanks for your help.dont think it's not appreciated. I dont have to agree to be appreciative. I value all i can learn, and like anyone else, dont always agree with everything.


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## DaViking (Sep 27, 2011)

bett said:


> I do believe i got your point but not sure you got mine.


I did, but I can acknowledge, with a straight face, that unfair and horrible things occur in the world without feeling the need to cry and climb the barricades for each and every one of them. I do hope that some balancing power emerges to keep DuPont, Monsanto and similar honest though.


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## monster'sdad (Jul 29, 2012)

DaViking said:


> I did, but I can acknowledge, with a straight face, that unfair and horrible things occur in the world without feeling the need to cry and climb the barricades for each and every one of them. I do hope that some balancing power emerges to keep DuPont, Monsanto and similar honest though.


That guy is part of a culture in a small town in Iowa where real life is not part of the equation. How they all got to that town is a long story but if you went there you would see how the mental programming and agenda machine works. It is as close to a cult as you will find.


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## Sheltielover25 (Jan 18, 2011)

bett said:


> Genetic Roulette Free Screening: Vote Today! | Institute for Responsible Technology |
> 
> it's long and sickening.
> i have no guarantees about pea protein, what the animals were fed, or anything else. i guess one can always point out something distasteful about anything i didnt grow or feed myself. i'm just trying to do the best i can, for my dogs.
> ...


I'm glad you saw this. I enjoyed it, well, scary but enjoyed learning more.


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## RawPitbulls (Feb 7, 2013)

NO WAY I would feed that to my dogs.


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## monster'sdad (Jul 29, 2012)

Sheltielover25 said:


> I'm glad you saw this. I enjoyed it, well, scary but enjoyed learning more.



Yogic Flying and GM Foods:The Wild Theories of Jeffrey Smith | Academics Review
http://theprogessivecontrarian.word...ith-yogic-flyer-dance-teacher-and-gmo-expert/

This is what I mean. Sometimes people on here act like the girl in the Allstate commercial that believe the dorky guy is a French model because it said so on the internet.

The bottom line is that he is in this to make money, scaring people. He is the type of guy college kids gravitate to.

Mr. Smith is not held in high regard, actually much worse.

I like the way he yoga flies though. He is not a scientist but he is formally trained in swing dancing. This is typical Farfield, Iowa. There are more scam artists there than any place on earth.

Bett, don't be the girl in the Allstate commercial.

I will take my guidance from the 40 year review and safety record of Canola Oil.


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## starturtle (Jul 12, 2012)

I wasn't sure which thread to post this in since there are 2. Is there really enough Canola Oil in the ingredients to cause that much of an issue? I would think there would be such a minimal amount it wouldn't harm them.

I fed GPF for over and it was great for my slower metabolism dogs. I have 2 that look at a low protein high fat dog food and gain weight. Now my two high metabolism dogs were being fed double the suggested amount so I switched about a month ago to Fromm Gold to try to get some weight on them. So far they are doing great. 

I am not as picky about grains or certain ingredients but I do stay with companies that have good reputations.


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## bett (Mar 15, 2012)

monster'sdad said:


> Yogic Flying and GM Foods:The Wild Theories of Jeffrey Smith | Academics Review
> Deconstructing Jeffrey Smith: Yogic flyer, dance teacher and GMO expert « Contrary to popular belief
> 
> This is what I mean. Sometimes people on here act like the girl in the Allstate commercial that believe the dorky guy is a French model because it said so on the internet.
> ...


fine, as that's your choice. 
and you can light up a cigarette too, unless now you read warning labels.
please dont confuse me with who you refer to in the above post. you seem to know me well enough from other boards so you should realize by now, that i am not that person who just takes one word on something without doing my own research and investigation.
you are not the only one, who has knowledge. the only difference is, i dont think my word is the last word.
you seem to be an expert on the typical person from iowa, the cult person, as you said in another post.
are you a monsanto expert too?


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## DaViking (Sep 27, 2011)

starturtle said:


> I wasn't sure which thread to post this in since there are 2. Is there really enough Canola Oil in the ingredients to cause that much of an issue? I would think there would be such a minimal amount it wouldn't harm them.


Canola oil is a good alternative and will not harm anyone. The canola oil from a GM plant is identical to the oil from a non GM plant, the oil is not altered in any way. The reasons for avoiding GM canola oil is an idealistic one, not a nutritional one. Pet Health and Nutrition: Canola oil safety?


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## monster'sdad (Jul 29, 2012)

DaViking said:


> Canola oil is a good alternative and will not harm anyone. The canola oil from a GM plant is identical to the oil from a non GM plant, the oil is not altered in any way. The reasons for avoiding GM canola oil is an idealistic one, not a nutritional one. Pet Health and Nutrition: Canola oil safety?


This whole discussion on Canola Oil is completely foolish. First off, the two foods in question do not use GMO Canola anyway. Second, even GMO Canola Oil is approved to be fed to infants. And Third, it was started because of a video by a complete fraud, Jefferey Smith, who's profession is Yoga Flying and Swing Dancing, not science.

In Dr. Tim's foods, Canola Oil is the 20th - 26th ingredient, meaning there is probably a few tablespoons in the whole bag, if that.

If you apply the same logic to Flax you wouldn't eat that either because Flax is used to make chemicals and paint. One small processing difference and you have a very irritating product.

Unfortunately for the rest of the forum, certain people get to post completely unsubstantiated information in order to scare others. But that is ok because they support the agenda.

Bett, keeps talking about Monsanto, but Monsanto had nothing to do with the development of Canola Oil, and certainly nothing to do with selling seeds of NON-GMO cultivars today.

She is just flat out wrong. If she really did research this she would know that even before Canola Oil was manually hybrid, asians had been using the predecessor seed for over 1,000 years.

Here you go, one example of dozens of NON-GMO Canola Oils that have nothing to do with Monsanto:

http://www.wholeharvest.com/products/non-gmo-canola-oil/


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## bett (Mar 15, 2012)

monster'sdad said:


> This whole discussion on Canola Oil is completely foolish. First off, the two foods in question do not use GMO Canola anyway, Second, even GMO Canola Oil is approved to be fed to infants and 3) It was started because of a video by a complete fraud, Jefferey Smith, who's profession in Yoga Flying and Swing Dancing.
> 
> If you apply the same logic to Flax you wouldn't eat that either because Flax is used to make chemical and paint. One small processing difference and you have a very irritating process.
> 
> Unfortunately for the rest of the forum, certain people get to post completely unsubstantiated information in order to scare others.


well, i am not posting to scare anyone. i'm posting for myself, and to find a food that satisfies my pooches on many levels.


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## monster'sdad (Jul 29, 2012)

bett said:


> well, i am not posting to scare anyone. i'm posting for myself, and to find a food that satisfies my pooches on many levels.


And that is fine...I am just pointing out that based on the facts, what has been posted on this forum is just pure fiction.

In fact, I just called Regal Pet Foods, which uses the same plant as Dr. Tim's. The person was actually combative with me that they ensure the grade is NON-GMO. 

What you feed is your business, but what you have been saying is not in any way, shape or form supported by the facts.

Peace


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## bett (Mar 15, 2012)

monster'sdad said:


> And that is fine...I am just pointing out that based on the facts, what has been posted on this forum is just pure fiction.
> 
> In fact, I just called Regal Pet Foods, which uses the same plant as Dr. Tim's. The person was actually combative with me that they ensure the grade is NON-GMO.
> 
> ...


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## dr tim (Mar 27, 2011)

Boy, these threads get contentious. I have a guaranteed spec sheet that shows the canola we use is GMO free. The beet pulp doesn't have that guarantee, much to my learning recently. I am looking to source it differently now if it is possible. 95% of the beet pulp is GMO in the USA it turns out.

The idea of our foods is to feed the metabolism correctly and you have a dog respond to that method. The fat content is the fuel that makes the the mitochondria work efficiently and starts the whole cascade of events. It is then portion control to count the calories correctly. Many owners have trouble feeding such small volumes of food but once they do they see how the dog responds to this method of feeding if you chose a kibbled diet. You can do the same idea with raw diets.


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