# New to the thread.



## BarbaraClark (Oct 23, 2011)

So, since I am new and know virtually nothing about raw feeding...could someone explain to me in easy terms the benefits of it? I own an APBT mix that I plan to do some work with...but I also hope to start attending some shows and get to know some breeders and get a quality dog to show and sport. (After I have learned what I need to know before taking this adventure.) I don't know anything about raw feeding, at all. So, what are the pros and cons? Nutritionally? Financially? Any tips or advice would be great.


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## naturalfeddogs (Jan 6, 2011)

Welcome! Great to have you! Hang around because there is SOOO much great info here. I've been feeding raw for just over a year now and still learning. First of all, check out preymodelraw.com. It is written by members here and tells all about getting started, benefits etc... The differance has been amazing in our dogs. Wonderfully clean teeth, no doggy breath, poops are very small and don't smell, coats are softer and shinier.... It just goes on and on. Alot of great folks will be on here soon and give you lots more info. Again, Welcome!


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## BarbaraClark (Oct 23, 2011)

Thanks so much and I will definitely check it out!


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## Hadley (Jan 6, 2011)

Barbara, I think the best advice anyone can give you is to get nice and comfortable with a big cup of coffee and on a day where you don't have much to do, read, read, and read some more. There are many threads on the forum about starting raw, and many threads on how to be thrifty as well. First you need to decide if you want PMR or BARF style raw. Most of us here feed PMR (prey model raw) as it is very easy and in our opinions, more biologically appropriate. There are others on this website who feed BARF though, and I believe we have a sub-forum for that now, so if that is your interest, by all means, check it out and contact those people. They seem pretty friendly. 

Most of us here cater to the 80/10/10 rule. That's 80%meat, 10%bone, 10%organ. Some people choose to follow this recipe per meal, some do it over a week, some over a longer period.. it's up to you and what you find easiest and what works for your dog. Once you get reading around this forum and other PMR oriented websites, you will have a better idea of what route you want to take. 

The pros are pretty vast, but in the end, it is going to depend on your dog. I started raw feeding because my dog (the one in the avatar) developed serious skin issues this year. Nothing was aleviating them. He is still in the healing process, but since starting the raw diet..we haven't had a single new outbreak. I'm taking that as progress of some sort. He is also WAY more energetic than he used to be..my god. He drives me crazy some days lol. His teeth are looking pretty good too. Many others have experienced changes in their dogs who have had health issues in the past. For healthy dogs, well.. they just tend to do well in general. 

The only cons I know about would probably be availability of meat sources depending on your area.. and the negativity that surrounds feeding raw. Don't expect your vet to be happy with your decision. Some vets are very open-minded and accepting, and luckily more and more are "seeing the light" so to speak.. but most are still against raw feeding. Cost is also going to depend on where you live and what's available to you. There are a lot of threads on the forum with tips on how to save money. Buying in bulk is the best way, as well as getting in good with your local butchers. If you have friends that hunt..then you might get lucky with them as well. 

Anyway, I have to go to work now, so I hope some of that helps!


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## BarbaraClark (Oct 23, 2011)

Thank you very much, that did help.

What is the difference between PMR and BARF? (What does BARF stand for?) Why are veterinarians against it? My boyfriend hunts and I have seen videos on another forum of somebody feeding their dogs a whole cut open deer! I had no idea before that that you could even do that..

I read most of the link given to me and it seems like something that I need to study more on, but could be very beneficial in the long run, especially since I am interested in a breed that often has allergies to most types of kibble.


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## CavePaws (Jan 25, 2011)

Prey Model - Feeding 80% muscle meat, 10% bone, 10% organ
Barf - I don't know the protocols because I don't feed it, but BARFers feed plant matter, dairy, and meat.

I feed a Prey Model type diet. The only supplement I give my dogs is fish oil caplets because I feed a lot of factory farmed meat which lacks in Omegas.


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## JayJayisme (Aug 2, 2009)

Barbara,

"BARF" is an acronym for "Biologically Appropriate Raw Food", or "Bones And Raw Food" depending on who you listen to. It was coined by Dr. Ian Billinghurst and is basically a diet that consists of 60-80% of raw meaty bones (RMBs) and 20-40% of fruits and vegetables, offal, meat, eggs, or dairy foods. BARF followers generally believe that dogs are omnivores, and therefore define vegetable matter is "biologically appropriate".

PMR, on the other hand, is an acronym for "Prey Model Raw", which is a diet modeled after the natural diet that dogs in the wild have evolved to derive the optimum level of nutrition and other benefits from. This diet is also referred to as "RMB" (Raw Meaty Bones) as well as other similar names. It basically consists of raw meat, bones, and organs (offal). There is no plant matter or dairy. PMR followers generally believe that dogs are carnivores, and nothing else, and that domesticated dogs, while selectively bred over hundreds of years, share 99.8% of the DNA of a grey wolf, as well as the same basic physiology. There is an overwhelming amount of scientific study to support this too.

PMR feeders generally believe that BARFers and kibble feeders have bought into the false notion that dogs are omnivores, a position that has been relentlessly promoted by the unregulated, mulit-billion dollar pet food industry, in order to justify the inclusion of cheap plant-based filler ingredients in their "foods".

As they say, "Follow the money".

As mentioned above, please take time to read through this board, going back as far as you can stand. Most of us did that very thing when we were new here, and we learned a lot before we ever had to ask a question. There will be links to other sites as well, and you are encouraged to follow them and keep reading. Just always keep in mind that the pet food industry and the BARF feeding camp are all interrelated and benefit commercially from their belief system. The PMR camp, on the other hand, doesn't benefit commercially in any way from others adopting PMR.

In your "travels" on the 'Net, there are a few sites that are "must reads". Here is a "starter list".

Dedicated to proper carnivore nutrition - Prey Model Raw Feeding for Dogs & Cats (especially the "How to get started" section.)

Skylar, Zack, and Abby on the WEB

Raw Feeding FAQ

The Many Myths of Raw Feeding

What’s Really in Pet Food

One of the best reads ever is a white paper that was published by Orijen (a high-end pet food manufacturer). It used to be linked from this page, but it looks like the link is dead now. If someone knows the path to download this PDF, I highly recommend reading this paper.

Orijen

That'll get you started...and then some! :biggrin:

Welcome aboard.

Jay


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## Tobi (Mar 18, 2011)

http://files.championpetfoods.com/ORIJEN_White_Paper.pdf

here Jay! :thumb:


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## Liz (Sep 27, 2010)

Pros for raw feeding for us are : great teeth, fresh breath, clean almost odorless skin and coat, excellent coat, normal happy energy (no carb highs and lows), speciaes appropriate food, I know exactly what they are eating, no allergies, no ear infections, supplements only when I think they need something, no vet visits, incredible muscle tone, easy weight maintenance, cheaper than top quality kibble, shopping for meat and meat sales. That's all I can think of off the top of my head. 

Cons: if you have larger or multiple dogs a stand alone freezer is almost imperative, shopping for meat (which also becomes a pro cause it is fun) extra time to package meat especially if bought in bulk. 

We buy 200 - 300 pounds of meat at a time for the most part and I take about 1 1/2 to speparate and package. That is about 2 to 2 1/2 months of food for my pack as we have 7 dogs. Plus On kibble I was spending $35.00 per bag, 4 bags per month so that's $140.00 per month. I now spend between $80.00 - $125.00, plus no vet visits, supplements are virtually unnecessary, and grooming is almost nil. No extra chewies - they get bones, and no extra teeth cleaning stuff. JMHO 

Vets are not taught much nutrition in school and like most people think taht if is meets minimum requirements then it must be just what dogs need. I try not to eat processed food an don't see why my dog - a carnivore should live on cereal. I have seen such a huge difference in their behavior, health and appearance that I feel they are getting the absolute best I can give them and they are thriving versus living. That all this costs less than a high quality kibble which will run $50.00 per bag and up is a plus. My area is great for purchasing meat and I belong to an incredible co-op. I hope that helps. Oh, my dogs were never sick or having allergy issues on kibble but the look and act incredibly different and their muscle tone is beyond compare.


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## BarbaraClark (Oct 23, 2011)

Thanks, everyone. You all helped a lot. I will get to reading right away. Right now my dogs are on Taste of the Wild, but I hope to start learning and see what I can do with raw. PMR does sound a little more logical than BARF, but I will do some research and see. I don't know enough about wild dogs to know if I think they are carnivores or omnivores, but you guys obviously know your stuff and you say they are carnivores, so I believe you. Lol. Thanks for the help.


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## nupe (Apr 26, 2011)

Welcome to forum Barbara!!


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## BarbaraClark (Oct 23, 2011)

Bumpimg my old thread to ask: where do you guys go to get most of you meats and organs? Also, I was thinking I could get deer organs from the local taxidermist, but how would I make sure that the organs aren't riddled with disease?


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## ciaBrysh (Dec 16, 2011)

I get my meat form a local butcher/supplier who usually gives us a decent deal if we buy in bulk. A lot of good sales can be found in your grocery store with certain cuts there are also online ordering sites that you can try such as hare-today.com (idk why, I just love that site haha) That may be where I will be getting my boneless pork and beef if I don't find it cheaper anywhere local. 
I've heard taxidermists don't actually butcher the meat, so they don't have the meat to sell/give, but that may be depending on where you are located

On organs, I can find chicken liver at a decent price from my grocery store some days, other days I will have to buy from my supplier. Other organs are a bit harder to come by around here...You just need to ask around, make a trip of it before starting!


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## Tobi (Mar 18, 2011)

BarbaraClark said:


> Bumpimg my old thread to ask: where do you guys go to get most of you meats and organs? Also, I was thinking I could get deer organs from the local taxidermist, but how would I make sure that the organs aren't riddled with disease?


We get ours from a local processor, we go to the kill floor and pick out the things we want from beef that is killed right in front of us, also inspected by usda. We get tons of venison from a local venison processor from September, to January, next year that will most likely be our main source of protein and organs. whole rabbits, and chickens for cheap, or free off of craigslist are a great deal, you might have to do the deed (whack em) but it's worth it for a full prey meal. We also watch the smaller grocery stores for lamb, and stuff like that, we can usually find it for about 1.50 a lb when it's marked down aka... going bad. but it's perfect for him.

There is no absolute way of knowing your meat isn't disease free, trusting your source is going to be your only peace of mind for that if you worry about things like that a lot.. I've never had a problem with "disease" in the year we've been feeding raw and we've used CL, different processors, grocery stores, you name it. :thumb:


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## DaneLover228 (Nov 29, 2011)

BarbaraClark said:


> Bumpimg my old thread to ask: where do you guys go to get most of you meats and organs?


The asian market has become my best friend! If you have one near you, I would definitely visit it! They have all kinds of fish and different animals that you can't find in a grocery store, like goat, duck, rabbit, etc. And they are very affordable!


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## BarbaraClark (Oct 23, 2011)

Alrighty, as far as RMBs, what do you guys feed and how often?


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## frogdog (Aug 10, 2011)

I feed beef ribs and usually give my dog one every other day as an afternoon treat/teeth cleaning. I alternate days with chicken feet and beef ribs.

Where are you located...may help us with suggesting protein sources?


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## Tobi (Mar 18, 2011)

BarbaraClark said:


> Alrighty, as far as RMBs, what do you guys feed and how often?


turkey necks, venison ribs, Duck carcass, I don't do beef ribs because he is too rough on them, and his teeth, they just scare me :lol:


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## BarbaraClark (Oct 23, 2011)

I live in south Louisiana.

I think my main confusion with RMBs comes from the weight. My dog Chevelle will need to be fed about 1.5 lbs of food a day. Do the RMBs count towards this weight? Because I would think they would be heavy, and take a whole meal by themselves.


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## frogdog (Aug 10, 2011)

I do not count them as part of his daily food intake but others may. My dog only eats the meat...tearing process off the bone helps clean teeth. The bone is most of the weight and mine does not ingest any beef bones.


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## BarbaraClark (Oct 23, 2011)

Also, what about supplements? I see most people just add fish oil. Would anything else be good?


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## frogdog (Aug 10, 2011)

Has anyone directed you to http://preymodelraw.com/...full great info and guidance. I do not administer supplements but some do on here...it is not necessary at this point for my dog.


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## BarbaraClark (Oct 23, 2011)

Yeah, I'm doing most of my reading there. Thanks for the advice.


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## Tobi (Mar 18, 2011)

Rmb's can be taken 2 ways.. something the dog chews and gnaws at , or... something they ingest wholly. just an example... my dog. on days he gets bone he gets about 1lb of venison ribs, and gets about 8oz of liver, and 4-6oz of kidney or lung or something like that.. (otherwise he's constipated) The bone i count as part of his daily intake, because it's fully ingested. If you don't and they eat a good bit of say the beef ribs, they may become constipated, that's really the only reason why i do it that way.

As far as supplements... I'd say that if your dog is doing well without them.. why throw anything else into the mix. If you're feeding lots of free-range, organic meats they will naturally be higher in omega 3's and lower in omega 6's which is great, if not... you may want to supplement with an omega 3 just to be on the safe side. other supplements are eggs a few times a week, chicken feet, beef trachea stuff like that add in crucial elements such as glucosamine and chondroitin. If you feel like you want to add in a daily multivitamin just for peace of mine, than by all means.. I've been talking to Natalie a lot about things like that, i'm going to try a daily vitamin with mine just to see if anything changes with him... Every dog is different, and some may need certain things that others don't Experiment with it, and just watch your dog closely to see small changes if any. if you don't feel a vitamin is doing anything, just stop using them. :smile:


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## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

I still give my larger dog a glucosamine supplement. He has an intermitten problem with his front ankle, and the extra supplementation does seem to help that. I feed him lots of heads and feet for the glucosamine, but our raw dog food supplier told me that may not be enough.

Maybe it's not necessary, but I don't think it's hurting anything except my bank account.


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## BarbaraClark (Oct 23, 2011)

Would it be okay if I fed my dogs turkey necks in replacement of a meal while they are still on kibble? I know a few people who have done it but I wanted to get a general opinion.


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## ciaBrysh (Dec 16, 2011)

I wouldn't until they are adjusted to raw. A lot of people can do it but from what I understand...more people don't. Does that make sense?
You could give her a turkey neck as say...a recreational chew for now...at least...thats what I would do


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## BarbaraClark (Oct 23, 2011)

So don't replace the meal with it? I went and bought a couple and was just wondering if I gave her one, would it be okay? It would be a once weekly sorta thing, just to keep her teeth in tip top shape until we start raw in a few months.


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## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

BarbaraClark said:


> So don't replace the meal with it? I went and bought a couple and was just wondering if I gave her one, would it be okay? It would be a once weekly sorta thing, just to keep her teeth in tip top shape until we start raw in a few months.


I say sure! It's bony and not a red meat. I think lots of people do that. The worst it could do is give her the squirts and I bet it doesn't do that with all the bone.


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## Herzo (Feb 5, 2011)

I'd do it and have done it with no problems.


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## ciaBrysh (Dec 16, 2011)

BarbaraClark said:


> So don't replace the meal with it? I went and bought a couple and was just wondering if I gave her one, would it be okay? It would be a once weekly sorta thing, just to keep her teeth in tip top shape until we start raw in a few months.


Yeah go with it I just meant some people give them as recreational chews that I know lol


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## BarbaraClark (Oct 23, 2011)

Did it and they CHOWED DOWN. Thanks guys.


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