# Long term effects?



## AHARM (Mar 28, 2010)

Hello all, 
I am currently interested in switching my 35 pd dog to raw. He is currenty on Science Diet. I work for a vet and had all the Hill's talks and he is on Science Diet Prescription w/d because he tends to "porkup" very easily. I run 4 miles with him about 3 days a week and on days I dont run, I bike while he runs next to me for 1-2 miles, so he gets plenty of exercise. 

Anyway, back to my point. While hearing this Science Diet talks, they mentioned long term effects of excessive protein, phosporus, calcium, etc and what it can do negatively to the dog's body. I am wondering if there are people who have been on raw for years and years who can tell me if bloodwork is ok, no kidney or any other problems related to excessive nutirients? When I have looked up research I see a lot of people boasting about the immediate affects of the raw, as in the teeth and coat looking better, small poops and that all sounds great to me, however, I am interested in long term affects on the inner workings of the body..

Sorry if that is somewhat confusing,
Thanks!!


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## whiteleo (Sep 7, 2008)

RFD is the only one on here who has fed for longer than five years, hes the one to ask! 
Otherwise I'd search out other rawfeeding forums where you get people who have been feeding for 10 yrs on up.


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## k9capture_16 (Aug 23, 2010)

I have a friend who has been raw feeding for 15 years, and her dogs were fine and blood work came back fine. Vets will find any excuse so people dont feed raw. Mine tried it on me but my dog is still alive.


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## AHARM (Mar 28, 2010)

Actually, when Hill's did their presentation, they focused mainly on other dog foods when doing their comparison. They did not mention raw. I think that is because there is a not a lot of reseach on it. But they mentioned that the high protein foods out there such as Orijen and Evo do effect the kidneys, not because of the protein level but because of the high levels of phosphorus that just naturally come along with the high protein because that is the way dog food is made.

Not meaning to talk kibble, I know this is a raw feeding section, but I am just concerened with the affect the protein can have on the kidneys and was wondering if anyone has any experience with the raw feeding long term.

I would really really like to switch to raw though once my boy is done with this bag of food. I am continuing to do research as I wait for more replies.


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## Mia (Oct 4, 2010)

Ask me in 10 years. Although I am fully confident in PMR:smile:


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## k9capture_16 (Aug 23, 2010)

Raw doesnt have lots of protein. Its the same amount if not less then what Science Diet has. Of course Science Diet will talk about other kibbles, they are trying to point out the flaws in that food to make their food appear best. I and everyone here could point out 10 things wrong with Science Diet in a matter of seconds...but couldnt find one thing wrong with raw.


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## AHARM (Mar 28, 2010)

I agree, Science Diet is not the best, that is why I am looking into feeding raw and based on the strong following it has, it is becoming difficult to find a reason not to.

Just dont want my boy to get too much or too little of a necessary nutrient.


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## k9capture_16 (Aug 23, 2010)

Okay here is a link to Natures Variety Raw dog food. Look at the protein content in this raw food. 

Nature's Variety: Instinct Raw Frozen Diet for Dogs and Cats: Chicken Formula | Nature's Variety

13%...

Same goes for those who make out own raw diets. I am not exactly sure on the typical protein content percentage for PMR but I am sure someone else will tune in.


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## werecatrising (Oct 15, 2010)

I work for a vet, too. We have many clients who have fed their dogs raw for years. Even a couple of breeders who have been at it 30+ years. We have not seen any negative effects reflected in blood work.


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## DaneMama (Jun 27, 2008)

Raw meats have ~18-25% protein...so lower than grain free kibbles by far.


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## k9capture_16 (Aug 23, 2010)

Thanks Natalie thats what I was looking for. As you can see raw doesnt have high protein like many claim it has when trying to find an excuse on strings to put raw down. It has the same as your average kibble.


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## eternalstudent (Jul 22, 2010)

When I first started looking into feeding raw, (and before I found DFC) I was planning on going the whole hog and balancing what I was feeding with the nutrient breakdown on the back of my kibble bag. Obviously missing out the preservatives and such like. 
If you want to be this precise it is possible but I think dogs have really adaptive digestive systems and quite frankly if they can cope and live a "normal" life on pedigree then feeding a little extra calcium is probably not going to make a difference!!

I would like to see how many off us on here keep to the program for the next 10 years then we can all report back


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## sassymaxmom (Dec 7, 2008)

Properly balanced raw has much less calcium and phosphorus than premium kibbles. If you are able to feed 10% bone, 80% meat/fish/egg and 10% organs the diet is better balanced than kibbles. The old style of BARF was far too high in calcium and phosphorus but prey model is balanced.

Max needs about 1200 mg of calcium a day for instance and I like to get 60 grams of protein into him. 100 grams of EVO has 2,110 mg of calcium and only 42 grams of protein. It has too much zinc and iron and not enough potassium and magnesium. Orijen is better but still not right. AAFCO stamped foods are balanced according to 20 year old NRC standards. Those standards keep changing as manufacturers learn more about nutrition if they feel like changing it. Why not feed stuff that is already perfect?

If premium kibbles are 42% protein and raw is 25% protein then the kibble fed dog will die of dehydration. If you don't take the water content of the food into account you are comparing fresh orange juice to dry Tang. The rest of the calories in raw come from fat and in kibble it is split between fat and carbohydrates for which dogs have no proven requirement.

Max generally gets about 40-50% of his calories from protein and by dry weight his meals are about 45% protein. I am concerned about his kidneys and heart. Keeping the minerals balanced helps the kidneys and feeding fresh high protein raw foods helps his heart.


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## jackied (Oct 19, 2010)

I've tried to calculate some ratios (so eliminating the moisture content issue).
Protein:fat:carbohydrate
Standard decent kibble 2 : 1 : 5
Orijen 2.5 : 1 : 2
Raw chicken inc skin 0.5 : 1 : 0
Raw chicken w/o skin 16: 1 : 0
Raw pigs liver 6 : 1 : 0.25
Raw proprietary food a 1.75 : 1 : 1
Raw proprietary food b 2.2 : 1: 0.7

I'm still just as confused...


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## bully4life (Aug 9, 2010)

Im on my 9th year with PMD,3 dogs. All their blood chemistry tests come back in the range they need to be in. Its the best thing you could EVER do for a pet !!!


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## RawFedDogs (Jun 16, 2008)

AHARM said:


> Hello all,
> I am currently interested in switching my 35 pd dog to raw. He is currenty on Science Diet. I work for a vet and had all the Hill's talks and he is on Science Diet Prescription w/d because he tends to "porkup" very easily. I run 4 miles with him about 3 days a week and on days I dont run, I bike while he runs next to me for 1-2 miles, so he gets plenty of exercise.


In the first palce, SD is one of the lowest of the low quality foods. The ingredients are terrible and includes such things as sawdust. SD has the absolutely best marketing department of any of the dog food companies. They have stuck to their same story forever and it's complete BS.



> Anyway, back to my point. While hearing this Science Diet talks, they mentioned long term effects of excessive protein, phosporus, calcium, etc and what it can do negatively to the dog's body. I am wondering if there are people who have been on raw for years and years who can tell me if bloodwork is ok, no kidney or any other problems related to excessive nutirients? When I have looked up research I see a lot of people boasting about the immediate affects of the raw, as in the teeth and coat looking better, small poops and that all sounds great to me, however, I am interested in long term affects on the inner workings of the body..


The long term effects of PMR diet are very easy to determine. Look at wild wolves. They have thrived on a PMR diet for a million years. There is no kibble that even comes close.

I often wonder why people ask for proof that a PMR diet is good but never ask for long term studies on kibble. PMR is nature's food and has been around for a million years. Kibble is only 50 or 60 years old and there are no major studies on it and no one asks for any. Ask a kibble company to prove it's product is as good as a natural PMR diet. That should be the question.

But to answer your question. I have a 10 1/2yo Great Dane who has been on PMR diet for over 8 years. SHe has a blood workup about 6 months ago an the vet said all was perfect. He said she has the liver of a 3 year old dog. SHe has great teeth and coat and her breath has no odor.


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## sassymaxmom (Dec 7, 2008)

I am not sure why the ratio of protein to fat to carb is important. That doesn't tell you how much protein is in a food. The amount of protein is easily determined. Either check a food database for the amount in the meat selected or figure from the amount in the commercial food fed. If a kibble has 42% protein then it has 42 grams of protein per 100 grams. If a meat has 5 grams of protein per ounce and the dog eats 8 ounces then the meal has 40 grams of protein. If a commercial raw food has 14% protein then 100 grams of that food has 14 grams of protein. I just want my dogs to have a minimum of 2 grams protein per pound of dog which is twice the NRC or AAFCO amount and I have never gotten them that much protein.

Animal protein is important for dogs, and 32% is better than 16%. I don't know if this URL will work properly, it is on the second page of the nutrition section of the articles on the IAMS site.
Importance of Animal-Based Proteins in Dog Foods | Iams.com
"Compared with dogs fed a diet with 100% chicken protein, dogs fed diets with decreasing levels of chicken and increasing levels of corn gluten meal had

* decreased lean tissue
* increased body fat
* decreased levels of blood proteins routinely used as markers of superior nutritional status

This was independent of the overall dietary protein level (12 or 28%), which was also examined in each of the four test groups.

As dogs age, body composition and muscle-specific proteins decline. Therefore, another study looked at the differences between feeding senior dogs a 32%-protein chicken-based diet, a 32%-protein chicken and corn gluten meal diet, or a 16%-protein chicken-based diet.

Senior dogs fed the 32%-chicken protein, chicken-based diet had better body composition and a muscle-specific protein pattern identical to that in healthy young adult dogs. However, those results were not seen in either of the other two diets. "

Here are some articles geared towards kidney diseased dogs.
DogAware.com Kidney Disease: Is a Low-Protein Diet Desirable or Necessary?
My Sassy was far better off eating a diet that was 30% protein by weight than the 22% protein kibble she was on before her kidneys started giving trouble. Her muscle mass improved and she was far stronger eating ~60 grams of protein a day rather than 40 grams of protein a day. I balanced her diet by lowering the phosphorus content and minimizing many of the other minerals as well rather than lowering protein. I did need to feed her a lot of carbs because she couldn't tolerate much fat so her cooked food was ~ 33%protein/15%fat/52%carbs by weight.


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## deb9017 (Aug 31, 2010)

RawFedDogs said:


> But to answer your question. I have a 10 1/2yo Great Dane who has been on PMR diet for over 8 years. SHe has a blood workup about 6 months ago an the vet said all was perfect. He said she has the liver of a 3 year old dog. SHe has great teeth and coat and her breath has no odor.




I did not know you had a Dane!


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## DaneMama (Jun 27, 2008)

deb9017 said:


> I did not know you had a Dane!


He has two danes actually LOL...unfortunately he was banned from DOL a while back, just like Jon! Not the most welcoming/friendly bunch of people over there


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## deb9017 (Aug 31, 2010)

danemama08 said:


> He has two danes actually LOL...unfortunately he was banned from DOL a while back, just like Jon! Not the most welcoming/friendly bunch of people over there


Yeah, I have noticed that. I just try to lay kind of low.

I have never seen any pics, and had no idea. I still get excited when I find other people who have Danes! But he was being all secret ninja about it.


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## DaneMama (Jun 27, 2008)

Hmmmm....he's always said something about having Danes since I joined up here like 2.5 years ago LOL, either way...lots of Danes here! WoOt :wink:


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## deb9017 (Aug 31, 2010)

danemama08 said:


> Hmmmm....he's always said something about having Danes since I joined up here like 2.5 years ago LOL, either way...lots of Danes here! WoOt :wink:


Oh, I guess I am just slow :smile:


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