# Need some nutrition help/thoughts please!



## Shannonb (Oct 26, 2012)

Hi,
Our rescue dog is having some issues. I don't think he has allergies, but maybe some intolerance and a sensitive stomach? He has somewhat loose large stools. He also has terrible gas constantly. Right now he had been on Whole Earth Farms for about a month and a half. He also had both ears infected when we got him-not sure if that could be food related? His coat is rough and dull. He is high energy-a cross between blue heeler and aussie. I don't know what other food to try. Do I try eliminating chicken? Or go grain free? What foods aren't too rich and are easily digestible? I see many have peas which could be a gas culprit. UGH! I really need some opinions and advice. I have been researching and am a bit overwhelmed... I appreciate any help/advice! Thanks! Shannon


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## Unosmom (May 3, 2009)

It seems like I've read mixed reviews about WEF, but it does tend to cause digestive upsets in some dogs probably due to multiple protein souces. I would say try something little more limited ingredient but that also has a decent meat content and grain free since ear problems tend to be worse for dogs on grain inclusive foods. 

Personally I would try something like pinnacle (either turkey/potato or salmon potato).


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## _unoriginal (Apr 8, 2012)

How much are you feeding?

Overfeeding will often result in pooping too often or large poops or loose stool

Something else to consider, this might be a sign that its not the best for your dog, in particular. If the problem were only stool-related, I'd say it's probably just a matter of finding the perfect amount.. BUT it seems like your problems dive a little deeper. You might consider trying a different brand.

I, personally, would go grain-/poutry-free and see what happens.


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## Shannonb (Oct 26, 2012)

All three of our dogs eat about 2 cups of this. I am not impressed with it. However we are on a budget. I will look into Pinnacle. Are there any others that are okay for sensitive stomachs/not too rich? Also, will the peas that are in many of the foods cause gas problems too? Thanks again!!


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## _unoriginal (Apr 8, 2012)

Peas, like anything else, will affect every dog differently. My dog's kibble has peas in it, in lieu of potatoes (I assume), and he doesn't get gas from it at all.

What's your budget?


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## Shannonb (Oct 26, 2012)

Well I would like to get them all on something good. Somewhere around 25lbs. for $50? But if I have to pay more for Buddy (dog w/ problems) to get his issues worked out I will. All of our animals have been rescues and we have what seems like a small zoo. :wink: So I try to buy the best I can afford for all of them.


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## DaViking (Sep 27, 2011)

Shannonb said:


> Hi,
> Our rescue dog is having some issues. I don't think he has allergies, but maybe some intolerance and a sensitive stomach? He has somewhat loose large stools. He also has terrible gas constantly. Right now he had been on Whole Earth Farms for about a month and a half. He also had both ears infected when we got him-not sure if that could be food related? His coat is rough and dull. He is high energy-a cross between blue heeler and aussie. I don't know what other food to try. Do I try eliminating chicken? Or go grain free? What foods aren't too rich and are easily digestible? I see many have peas which could be a gas culprit. UGH! I really need some opinions and advice. I have been researching and am a bit overwhelmed... I appreciate any help/advice! Thanks! Shannon


I wouldn't eliminate chicken or grains as a first step to figure out the intolerance. WEF is a food with many (botanical) functional ingredients and probiotics. As step one I would eliminate many of these ingredients and find a more classic type less complicated chicken based food. Chicken and Rice, Chicken and Corn, Chicken and Barley or similar. Most of these formulas from good brands have proven digestibility, have a good amount of animal ingredients and are reasonable priced. If that works you know it's not the chicken or the grains that caused the issues.
Some brands to look for are:
Precise Classic
ProPac
Annamaet
Dr.Tim's
Nutram, Lifetime or MultiMenu if you are in Canada.

Bonne chance


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## Jace (Oct 3, 2012)

yes, it you try a novel protein such as salmon, duck or venison, with limited carbs, and no other ingredients that contain protein (alfalfa, flaxseed etc), this is a good place to start. Ear infections and loose stools can be a sign of an intolerance or sensitivity. I use the Go! Salmon, but there are many good limited ingredient foods. I am not adverse to grain, provided it is a limited exposure like Oatmeal, or something that has not been used normally in food, ie corn, wheat, soy, rice etc.
You will also want to make sure you are treating the ears and that they are clear from infection before deciding if the food works. Good luck!


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## monster'sdad (Jul 29, 2012)

DaViking said:


> I wouldn't eliminate chicken or grains as a first step to figure out the intolerance. WEF is a food with many (botanical) functional ingredients and probiotics. As step one I would eliminate many of these ingredients and find a more classic type less complicated chicken based food. Chicken and Rice, Chicken and Corn, Chicken and Barley or similar. Most of these formulas from good brands have proven digestibility, have a good amount of animal ingredients and are reasonable priced. If that works you know it's not the chicken or the grains that caused the issues.
> Some brands to look for are:
> 
> 
> ...



The ones listed are much better made foods than anything coming out of a marketing company like Merrick. What you described sounds like classic overfeeding. Stay with a better, simple chicken and rice food. Real food intolerences and allergies affect 2 - 3 dogs in 10,000 and the rest are poorly made foods and overfeeding. Owner perception is big part of this too.

And you don't have to spend $2lb for food. Viking listed Pro Pac. That food costs $.75lb and Dr. Tim's Kinesis is about $1.25lb with probably the best ingredients and processing on the market. If you are Canadian, Nutram and Corey make foods that professionals use.


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## SaharaNight Boxers (Jun 28, 2011)

What about Blue Wilderness? It's 30 lbs for $55 and worked well for Duke's stools and cleared up his ears.


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## Jace (Oct 3, 2012)

> The ones listed are much better made foods than anything coming out of a marketing company like Merrick. What you described sounds like classic overfeeding. Stay with a better, simple chicken and rice food. Real food intolerences and allergies affect 2 - 3 dogs in 10,000 and the rest are poorly made foods and overfeeding. Owner perception is big part of this too.


Dr Jean Dodds testing for intolerance and sensitivity show numbers that I have not seen before, verrry interesting:

Clinical trials included 566 dogs; each was tested with the 6 primary food antigens for anti-IgA and anti-IgM in saliva and anti-IgG in serum.

62% (352 of the 566) of the dogs tested showed weak, moderate or strong food reactivity to at least one food allergen.
71% of the dogs tested showed weak, moderate or strong food reactivity to beef.
71% of the dogs tested showed weak, moderate or strong food reactivity to wheat.
70% of the dogs tested showed moderate or strong food reactivity to cow’s milk.
57% of the dogs tested showed weak, moderate or strong food reactivity to corn.
Fewer dogs showed food reactivity to soy (25%) and very few to egg (3%).
Only one dog of 121 control dogs showed a mild anti-IgG reaction in serum, and only to wheat.


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## DaViking (Sep 27, 2011)

Jace said:


> Dr Jean Dodds testing for intolerance and sensitivity show numbers that I have not seen before, verrry interesting:
> 
> Clinical trials included 566 dogs; each was tested with the 6 primary food antigens for anti-IgA and anti-IgM in saliva and anti-IgG in serum.
> 
> ...


This is part of her NutraScan efforts and just to clarify for those who aren't familiar with her or NutraScan, this is IgA, IgM and IgG testing for sensitivities or intolerances, not allergies. I do find her results interesting and worth taking a look at though. The problem is that digestive sensitivities is a moving target within each individual. Enzyme production, IBS, toxins, additives, psyche, and stress are all legitimate factors in an intolerance. Intolerance testing is very interesting but also very complex, a lot is still unknown. Arguably most dogs who transition suffer from some kind of digestive upset, doesn't have to be severe or very noticeable. This is an intolerance or sensitivity in it's most obvious form.

Personally I'd love to see more long term sensitivity testing on a slew of various newer so called functional ingredients.

Poor soy  Only 1 in 4 showed a novel sensitivity reaction but still it have gotten an absolute beating in recent years. :smile:


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## Shannonb (Oct 26, 2012)

Okay so I should try a basic chicken and rice food and if things get better I can rule out that there is an intolerance to chicken and grain. Did I get that right? If so I think I will try Dr. Tims. How long should I have Buddy on it to see if it is going to work? I think I read like 3 months? Should I put my other two on it also? Thanks so much for everyones input- it is really helpful!:smile:


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## SaharaNight Boxers (Jun 28, 2011)

I personally am not a fan of feeding dog grains especially those with drop ears or hairy ears because they can easily get yeast ear infections. And trust me they're a pain to deal with. Duke had them all the time on grain inclusive foods. I'm not a fan of the grain inclusive Dr. Tim's either. It's also not really a simple chicken and rice formula either. Professionals use foods other than Dr. Tim's also. Those who use Dr. Tim's are probably in the minority.


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## Shannonb (Oct 26, 2012)

What do you recommend? I don't think something really rich but I agree with the grain...


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## monster'sdad (Jul 29, 2012)

Shannonb said:


> What do you recommend? I don't think something really rich but I agree with the grain...



When people trash grains over other ingredients ask for proof. There is no link to grains and ear infections. The ear infections are probably due to the stress of being rehomed. 

Some people would like others believe that feeding raw food solves every problem known to man but it is all rubbish. Raw fed dogs get sick and die of the same things as other dogs. Experts have looked at raw fed dogs and have found no measurable benefit other than cleaner teeth. On the flip-side, vets will routinely repair the stomachs and intestines of raw fed dogs and many will report dogs in very poor condition from lack of nourishment and imbalances.

Clean your dogs ears with a mix of one standard bottle of alcohol, 16 drops of Gentian Violet and 3 baking tablespoons of pharma grade boric acid. Once a day for a week and then once a week.


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## BeagleCountry (Jan 20, 2012)

I am the director of a rescue and have had Beagles of my own for many years. My experience has been that there are dogs where grain inclusive or grain free makes no difference. There are others that have repeated yeast infections when fed grain inclusive. When changed to grain free the ear infection were almost nonexistant. With raw they are gone.

I highly recommend Zymox for ear infections. It is better than anything that was prescribed by a vet.
Amazon.com: Zymox Otic Pet Ear Treatment without Hydrocortisone, 4-Ounce: Pet Supplies


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## SaharaNight Boxers (Jun 28, 2011)

Shannonb said:


> What do you recommend? I don't think something really rich but I agree with the grain...


I only fed Blue Buffalo when I fed kibble. The Wilderness helped clear up his ear infections and his stools were always pretty consistent. It's mid grade in my mind, not too rich (I fed the salmon) around 30% protein. The only thing that did happen on the downside was he had a patch of hair missing from his shoulder (quarter sized), I believed it was from mange, but now researching around more I think it was because their isn't a super high amount of fat in the Wilderness. It also explain why he had dandruff earlier. I've noticed he needs a bit more fat in his diet now. I'd just add some salmon oil and vitamin E if you notice dandruff or thinning hair.


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## SaharaNight Boxers (Jun 28, 2011)

BeagleCountry said:


> I am the director of a rescue and have had Beagles of my own for many years. My experience has been that there are dogs where grain inclusive or grain free makes no difference. There are others that have repeated yeast infections when fed grain inclusive. When changed to grain free the ear infection were almost nonexistant. With raw they are gone.
> 
> I highly recommend Zymox for ear infections. It is better than anything that was prescribed by a vet.
> Amazon.com: Zymox Otic Pet Ear Treatment without Hydrocortisone, 4-Ounce: Pet Supplies


That is exactly how Duke was about the ears, and I definitely saw a difference in a switch to grain free from grain inclusive.


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## Georgiapeach (Jan 24, 2011)

You could try something like Taste of the Wild Pacific Stream. I find that my boxer has loose stools with higher protein foods, even when fed the proper amount. TOTW PS has 25% protein. I tried higher protein foods and he got loose stools and lots of them. The worst was Wellness Core Ocean - the gas was room clearing and nauseating, to say the least. Every dog is different though. My poodle ends up eating all of the experimental kibble that the boxer hasn't been able to eat!


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## meggels (May 30, 2010)

I second the Zymox. Murph hasn't had an infection in awhile but when he did the zymox cleared it right up.


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## CorgiPaws (Mar 31, 2009)

monster'sdad said:


> There is no link to grains and ear infections. The ear infections are probably due to the stress of being rehomed.


Prove it....


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## DaViking (Sep 27, 2011)

CorgiPaws said:


> Prove it....


You want him to do negative proof? Ear infections is a combination of several things coming together. The underlying culprit for repeated/chronic ear infections is not grains or any other ingredient group but rather an undiagnosed environmental or food allergy. This causes microscopic inflammation in the ear canal (skin) resulting in an abnormal growth of bacteria and yeast. Now... can grains like for example wheat be the culprit? Absolutely but not because it is a grain, it's because it's wheat, one of the top 3 allergens. Could beef or chicken be the culprit? Absolutely since beef and chicken also have the potential to be allergens. Removing grains from the diet of a dog that is allergic to chicken will not do anything for that dog. You can try to reduce anything that raises the glucose level by feeding low glycemic ingredients like oat, barley, soy or peas but the yeast will still be there feeding on glucose present. The allergen need to be removed first, not the grains. So bottom line, grains as a group is not the cause of repeated/chronic ear infections, allergies are. Other causes for more random infections can be foreign objects, moisture and stress as Monster's Dad mentioned.


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## monster'sdad (Jul 29, 2012)

It is convenient to blame a commercial diet for everything. Ear infections are, well, infections. Generally bacterial, not yeast. You will see them pop up during parts of the year and in some places they are more common due to humidty. Most people don't care for ears until there is a problem. 

Also, dark wax accumulation does not automatically mean an infection, so whether this dog has an infection is debatable. Many breeds just naturally throw off more dark wax.

My advice is stop blaming grains or anything else. There is a strong link to breed when it comes to real ear infections due to the construction of the ear. 

The Blue Mix is probably the only thing that works long-term and by the way you can use Witch Hazel instead of alcohol.

And yes, I cannot prove a negative.


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## CorgiPaws (Mar 31, 2009)

How do you explain the THOUSANDS of people who battle infections of all types, including ear, for years... Change diets, and never see another. One of my girls had constant yeasty vaginal infections on kibble buy I haven't had her get one single infection since. 

I'm not anti grain, though. Most grain free foods just put potato in its place.

Nutrition is the cornerstone of health. To think that what you eat does not play a role in EVERY other aspect of overall health is foolish.


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## DaViking (Sep 27, 2011)

CorgiPaws said:


> Nutrition is the cornerstone of health. To think that what you eat does not play a role in EVERY other aspect of overall health is foolish.


You won't find many who disagree with you. I think you'd agree that's why we are all here.


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## Jace (Oct 3, 2012)

> This is part of her NutraScan efforts and just to clarify for those who aren't familiar with her or NutraScan, this is IgA, IgM and IgG testing for sensitivities or intolerances, not allergies.
> 
> 
> > Do you think what Dr Dodds says is correct that what people think are allergies are really sensitivities/intolerance? She believes that true allergies are very rare, and the symptoms people describe also fall into allergy/intolerance. I agree too that it is interesting, and more studies would be great to see.


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## Jace (Oct 3, 2012)

> This is part of her NutraScan efforts and just to clarify for those who aren't familiar with her or NutraScan, this is IgA, IgM and IgG testing for sensitivities or intolerances, not allergies.


Do you think what Dr Dodds says is correct that what people think are allergies are really sensitivities/intolerance? She believes that true allergies are very rare, and the symptoms people describe also fall into allergy/intolerance. I agree too that it is interesting, and more studies would be great to see.


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## monster'sdad (Jul 29, 2012)

CorgiPaws said:


> How do you explain the THOUSANDS of people who battle infections of all types, including ear, for years... Change diets, and never see another. One of my girls had constant yeasty vaginal infections on kibble buy I haven't had her get one single infection since.
> 
> I'm not anti grain, though. Most grain free foods just put potato in its place.
> 
> Nutrition is the cornerstone of health. To think that what you eat does not play a role in EVERY other aspect of overall health is foolish.


It is important not doubt but much of what you describe is not due to diet but environment or underlying medical condition like immune deficiency that no diet in the world will cure. Also much is related to vaccination frequency and whether a dog has been neutered or not. Without question, intact animals have far fewer medical problems than neutered dogs whether it is orthopedic, cancer, thyroid, diabetes, coat quality and allergies. Bitches getting vaginal or UTI infections is not something new, much of it has to do with the organ itself and the proximity to the ground while urinating. Corgis being very low to the ground doesn't help the situation either.

So yes diet is important, but nothing replaces good breeding, careful and sparing vaccination and leaving the parts that mother nature put in, well, in. Anyone that has been around dogs knows darn well, intact dogs are much more robust than neutered dogs and have way fewer medical issues. It is amazing that so many people are afraid of corn but don't think for a moment about neutering that 6 month old Labrador puppy.

You also made my point, you said "thousands", well even if you are right that is thousands out of many millions, so statistically "thousands" is relatively insignificant.


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## DaViking (Sep 27, 2011)

Jace said:


> Do you think what Dr Dodds says is correct that what people think are allergies are really sensitivities/intolerance? She believes that true allergies are very rare, and the symptoms people describe also fall into allergy/intolerance. I agree too that it is interesting, and more studies would be great to see.


Yes, I am with her in that food allergies are relatively rare and more often than not it's either environmental or an intolerance. Problem with testing for intolerance to a novel ingredient is that the intolerance *can* be gone down the road if fed the same ingredient for an extended time, or not. The definition of an intolerance is a little vague and there are questions around how severe symptoms, if any, dogs who test positive to various intolerances are. I'd like to see more long term broad testing.


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## Jace (Oct 3, 2012)

DaViking said:


> Problem with testing for intolerance to a novel ingredient is that the intolerance *can* be gone down the road if fed the same ingredient for an extended time, or not. The definition of an intolerance is a little vague and there are questions around how severe symptoms, if any, dogs who test positive to various intolerances are. I'd like to see more long term broad testing.


So you are saying that feeding a particular novel protein that the dog has an intolerance to can be improved over time, or the reverse (which is what I am familiar with)? And do you question the validity of severity of the response? It's interesting to me to be able to "predict" the link to future issues as well. I get the idea of it from a science perspective, but want to see more?


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## DaViking (Sep 27, 2011)

Jace said:


> So you are saying that feeding a particular novel protein that the dog has an intolerance to can be improved over time, or the reverse (which is what I am familiar with)? And do you question the validity of severity of the response? It's interesting to me to be able to "predict" the link to future issues as well. I get the idea of it from a science perspective, but want to see more?


To me the interesting part is the staggering number of positive IgA and IgM results she got. Pair that with what we know about how most dogs digestion initially reacts to a brand new diet and novel ingredients. The majority of these dogs will adapt just fine over a course of 3 to 6 weeks. A minority will not adapt and have digestive symptoms that crosses over to significant. My brain is trying to align this minority to her numbers. I am not taking anything away from her efforts, I like them very much, I just don't want to be in a position where a lot of good ingredients are off the table when there really is no need.


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## Sheltielover25 (Jan 18, 2011)

monster'sdad said:


> It is important not doubt but much of what you describe is not due to diet but environment or underlying medical condition like immune deficiency that no diet in the world will cure. Also much is related to vaccination frequency and whether a dog has been neutered or not. Without question, intact animals have far fewer medical problems than neutered dogs whether it is orthopedic, cancer, thyroid, diabetes, coat quality and allergies. Bitches getting vaginal or UTI infections is not something new, much of it has to do with the organ itself and the proximity to the ground while urinating. Corgis being very low to the ground doesn't help the situation either.
> 
> So yes diet is important, but nothing replaces good breeding, careful and sparing vaccination and leaving the parts that mother nature put in, well, in. Anyone that has been around dogs knows darn well, intact dogs are much more robust than neutered dogs and have way fewer medical issues. It is amazing that so many people are afraid of corn but don't think for a moment about neutering that 6 month old Labrador puppy.
> 
> You also made my point, you said "thousands", well even if you are right that is thousands out of many millions, so statistically "thousands" is relatively insignificant.


I think that's rubbish! Diet is number one most important thing in any living creature. If the list you named above were the determining factor there's no way my puppies would be as healthy as they are. I'd be willing to bet if you started feeding some tripe to you pup, yeast would no longer be an issue. It wouldn't hurt to try, right? It's under $2/lb on My Pet Carnivore. That's the kind of probiotics living things need; those derived from real sources -- not a lab in China. give pup homemade raw milk kefir, feed pup the grains! That would help tremendously. Soak the kibble in kefir will help, too. You can sit here and debate kibbles all day long and some might be better than the other but in the end NONE are what any living creature should be deriving their nutrients from. I've seen way too many humans and dogs/cats improve dramatically when they changed their diet to include whole foods in their natural state. I've studied Weston A Price and his studies on cultures proves exactly how important food is. Take a look at his work if you have doubts. Add the tripe/and or raw kefir and I bet your problems will be solved. Switching from one kibble to another isn't going to do much because, like I said, no one is meant to derive their nutrients from a concoction made in a lab; we need the real deal to thrive.


Also check out these studies... they'll give you ideas of supplements to add in and also show you studies they done on certain vitamin deficiencies that are linked to reoccurring yeast infections. Something is off in the body to allow that to happen...


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## monster'sdad (Jul 29, 2012)

Weston Price was a dentist and a quack. Widely discredited by real scientists.

Real science proves the three most important things you can do for a pet dog is 1) Adequate Exercise, 2) Don't Overvaccinate and 3) Don't spay or neuter before maturity, and ideally never. Studies on unneutered males are more numerous than on females but in 2009 a study on females showed that unspayed Rotties, or Rotties not spayed until age 6, lived 30% longer.

Adequate diet is important, but people need not go to extremes or expect any diet to cure common issues that are not due to a specific nutritional deficiency.


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## JLeigh (Jul 15, 2012)

monster'sdad said:


> Weston Price was a dentist and a quack. Widely discredited by real scientists.


And there's the rub. I realized many years ago that just because "science" says so doesn't make it so. Data can be and is manipulated all the time. Many studies that have come to conclusions that are not in line with the AMA-accepted conclusions simply never see the light of day. 



> Real science proves the three most important things you can do for a pet dog is 1) Adequate Exercise, 2) Don't Overvaccinate and 3) Don't spay or neuter before maturity, and ideally never. Studies on unneutered males are more numerous than on females but in 2009 a study on females showed that unspayed Rotties, or Rotties not spayed until age 6, lived 30% longer.


If "science" is telling me that good nutrition doesn't even make it into the top 3 most important things you can do for your dog, then I can't call it "real science". Good nutrition is the foundation of health whether we're talking about humans or animals.


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## monster'sdad (Jul 29, 2012)

JLeigh said:


> And there's the rub. I realized many years ago that just because "science" says so doesn't make it so. Data can be and is manipulated all the time. Many studies that have come to conclusions that are not in line with the AMA-accepted conclusions simply never see the light of day.
> 
> 
> 
> If "science" is telling me that good nutrition doesn't even make it into the top 3 most important things you can do for your dog, then I can't call it "real science". Good nutrition is the foundation of health whether we're talking about humans or animals.



In the US, access to adequate nutrition is the norm, so these other factors are more important.


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## JLeigh (Jul 15, 2012)

monster'sdad said:


> In the US, access to adequate nutrition is the norm, so these other factors are more important.


Judging by the high rate of disease and obesity in the US (canine and human), I'm not at all convinced that adequate nutrition is the norm.


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## DaViking (Sep 27, 2011)

JLeigh said:


> Judging by the high rate of disease and obesity in the US (canine and human), I'm not at all convinced that adequate nutrition is the norm.


Don't take the discussion into the ridiculous. I doubt scientist and nutritionists recommend starting your kids on a KFC diet.
I hope these animal scientists feed their dogs too and in doing so they acknowledge that nutrition is the foundation for everything. No need to spell it out.


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## JLeigh (Jul 15, 2012)

DaViking said:


> Don't take the discussion into the ridiculous.


Come now. There is no need to suggest that my post was ridiculous. I'm sure you can make your point without resorting to such tactics, right?



> I doubt scientist and nutritionists recommend starting your kids on a KFC diet.
> I hope these animal scientists feed their dogs too and in doing so they acknowledge that nutrition is the foundation for everything.


My post was in response to monster'sdad's assertion that good nutrition isn't even in the top 3, and that since good nutrition is so prevalent US, it doesn't need to be mentioned. I disagree with him and said so. I don't believe I mentioned KFC anywhere in either of my posts.


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## monster'sdad (Jul 29, 2012)

JLeigh said:


> Judging by the high rate of disease and obesity in the US (canine and human), I'm not at all convinced that adequate nutrition is the norm.


Listen, 99.99999% of dog food sold is adequate to maintain good health. If people feed too much, neuter, overvaccinate or don't exercise the animal, it is their fault not Purina's. 

If breeders don't employ sound breeding practices, continue to wean too early, vaccinate 4 week old pups, then its their fault, not Purina's.

If you believe that fish oil, apple cider vinegar, tumeric, milk thistle, kefir or grain free diets will reverse or prevent common maladies you are misinformed.

Think about it. Why are mixed-breed dogs generally much healthier than pure bred dogs?


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## DaViking (Sep 27, 2011)

JLeigh said:


> My post was in response to monster'sdad's assertion that good nutrition isn't even in the top 3, and that since good nutrition is so prevalent US, it doesn't need to be mentioned. I disagree with him and said so. I don't believe I mentioned KFC anywhere in either of my posts.


You where making assumptions to make a cheap point. That's what I was reacting to. Every reasonably informed person, scientist, nutritionists or Joe Blow acknowledge that nutrition is fundamental. The issue is that some have such a narrow definition of "proper nutrition" that it crosses over to the extreme. IMO, it's fine if you disagree.


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## JLeigh (Jul 15, 2012)

monster'sdad said:


> Listen, 99.99999% of dog food sold is adequate to maintain good health.


I don't believe that at all. But this is one of the reasons these discussions get so contentious. My idea of what constitutes good nutrition differs completely with yours. If we can't agree on what good nutrition means, then the discussion really goes nowhere, unfortunately.


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## JLeigh (Jul 15, 2012)

DaViking said:


> You where making assumptions to make a cheap point.


Not at all. You may not_ like_ what I said, but it is undeniable that obesity and disease rates in the US are high. Even "science" says so. If stating the obvious = cheap point, then so be it.



> That's what I was reacting to.


There was no need to react with such...acidity. It just detracts from what you are trying to say. 



> Every reasonably informed person, scientist, nutritionists or Joe Blow acknowledge that nutrition is fundamental.


But I wasn't responding to Joe Blow, nutritionists, or scientists. I was responding to a post by monster'sdad. 



> The issue is that some have such a narrow definition of "proper nutrition" that it crosses over to the extreme.


And as I said in a previous post, that's why these discussions can get rancorous. We can't agree on the conclusions if we cannot agree on the basic premise.


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## DaViking (Sep 27, 2011)

monster'sdad said:


> Think about it. Why are mixed-breed dogs generally much healthier than pure bred dogs?


And further, on a world wide scale, why is the Jack Russell Terrier one of the healthiest most robust breeds around...


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## DaViking (Sep 27, 2011)

JLeigh said:


> Not at all. You may not_ like_ what I said, but it is undeniable that obesity and disease rates in the US are high. Even "science" says so. If stating the obvious = cheap point, then so be it.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


See below



JLeigh said:


> If "science" is telling me that good nutrition doesn't even make it into the top 3 most important things you can do for your dog, then I can't call it "real science". Good nutrition is the foundation of health whether we're talking about humans or animals.


Cheap point. Give ppl some credit before assuming.


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## kathylcsw (Jul 31, 2011)

JLeigh said:


> Not at all. You may not_ like_ what I said, but it is undeniable that obesity and disease rates in the US are high. Even "science" says so. If stating the obvious = cheap point, then so be it.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



No JLeigh there are certain members on here who decide that eevryone how disagrees with them is just stupid. That is why the "discussions" get so ugly. There is no respect for differing views just people trying to paint those with opposing views as idiots who just don't understand. At the end of the day feed your own dog whatever you choose. If it is working for you and your dog then great. Don't assume that anyone who makes a different choice is dumb. 

Calling your opponent - for lack of a better word - stupid has been and will always be the last resort of those who feel insecure in their views. Most people have learned to ignore everything monster'sdad says becaue he lacks even basic civility. Rudeness gets you nowhere.


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## JLeigh (Jul 15, 2012)

DaViking said:


> See below
> 
> Cheap point. Give ppl some credit before assuming.


But you didn't quote that post when you called my post "ridiculous". You quoted this one:
*
"Judging by the high rate of disease and obesity in the US (canine and human), I'm not at all convinced that adequate nutrition is the norm."*

And when I defended myself, you said I was making a cheap point. I explained myself again, and now you're saying my cheap point was in a different post. But I'll address it anyway. 

The post stated what science said were the three most important things in caring for your dog. Nutrition wasn't even on the list. I said, rightly so, that if science doesn't include nutrition in the top three, then it's not real science. That's not an assumption. That's a fact.


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## JLeigh (Jul 15, 2012)

kathylcsw said:


> No JLeigh there are certain members on here who decide that eevryone how disagrees with them is just stupid. That is why the "discussions" get so ugly. There is no respect for differing views just people trying to paint those with opposing views as idiots who just don't understand. At the end of the day feed your own dog whatever you choose. If it is working for you and your dog then great. Don't assume that anyone who makes a different choice is dumb.
> 
> Calling your opponent - for lack of a better word - stupid has been and will always be the last resort of those who feel insecure in their views. Most people have learned to ignore everything monster'sdad says becaue he lacks even basic civility. Rudeness gets you nowhere.


Ah, I see.


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## DaViking (Sep 27, 2011)

I have made my point and have nothing more to add without...


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## CorgiPaws (Mar 31, 2009)

Now, now children....


This thread is going absolutely nowhere positive. There are two vastly different opinions going on, neither will agree, and both have merit. 

:closed_2:


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