# Rotation Diet Questions



## ruckusluvr (Oct 28, 2009)

Do you think it is okay to rotate between a grain free food, and a food with grain?

I think I would like to rotate between Taste of the Wild pacific stream (salmon)
and Wellness supermix 5 chicken.

Does it hurt anything if I keep them on TOTW pacific stream only?

Why exactly should people rotate? Isnt it just so the dog does not get food allergies? Thanks!


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## 1605 (May 27, 2009)

ruckusluvr said:


> Do you think it is okay to rotate between a grain free food, and a food with grain?
> 
> I think I would like to rotate between Taste of the Wild pacific stream (salmon)
> and Wellness supermix 5 chicken.
> ...


Why would you want to rotate between one with grain & one without? Personally, I don't see any benefit to grains, that's why Zio is on EVO grain free. 

Why not just feed two non-grains, so the nutritional profiles will be similar?


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## ruckusluvr (Oct 28, 2009)

SubMariner said:


> Why would you want to rotate between one with grain & one without? Personally, I don't see any benefit to grains, that's why Zio is on EVO grain free.
> 
> Why not just feed two non-grains, so the nutritional profiles will be similar?


I want to keep it below 28% protein, and that is a bit hard to do. that is just what i am comfortable with.
and what benefit do dogs get out of eating a sack of taters VS a sack a grain?
of course the meat content is high in both of these foods, just sayin


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## ruckusluvr (Oct 28, 2009)

I just realized I may have posted a simular question before. if that is the case I am so sorry. I actually frequent to dog food forums, so i may have gotten confused. 

maybe i dont really need to rotate anyway, since they get canned mixed with the dry. canned blue buffalo, the venison, turkey, and chicken types.


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## DaneMama (Jun 27, 2008)

No reason to be sorry! You might get a different response this time round!

Grain free foods are better to me because potato is a better, higher quality carbs source and a bit more bioavailable to a dog compared to grains. They also have less tendency to cause allergic reactions in dogs.

If anything I would rotate between different protein sources of grain free. Why do you need to stay at ~28% protein?


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## ruckusluvr (Oct 28, 2009)

no one here will agree with me, or change my mind. but i will still tell you.

Ruckus's behaviorist is dead set against high protein food for an aggressive, reactive dog. She said that she has seen major improvements in aggression cases by just lowering the protein on the dog's food. my vet, and the trainer that I do obedience and agility also says the same thing. And I personally think that I have seen it first hand.

I was using the other TOTW foods that had a higher protein level and Ruckus suddenly turned to a monster. NOTHING changed, and the vet found nothing medically wrong with him. 

Ruckus was diagnosed with having a possible chemical imbalance in 05. Ruckus is aggressive. he has bitten before, and cannot be trusted. not just bitten, but attempt to maul. That of course is the reason i work with a behaviorist so regularly and constantly have to work with him and manage his issues. He is also very reactive. He is on meds, and has been awesome for about a year. its like he is a normal dog! After I changed his food he turned into that Monster he used to be before the vets put him on meds. He has been off of a higher protein food for a couple of months now, and he is back to being "almost normal"

no one in the whole world (that i know of anyway)
claims that high protein will MAKE your dog aggressive or reactive. but supposedly it does make an aggressive reactive dog worse.

I wish i could remember the explanation i got for this. But I cant. I remember thinking it made perfect since. But the studies they were mostly referring to I think were studies done on humans, and not studies done on dogs.
not really sure, just cant remember.

I am just not comfortable feeding a high protein food.


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## CorgiPaws (Mar 31, 2009)

ruckusluvr said:


> no one here will agree with me, or change my mind. but i will still tell you.
> 
> Ruckus's behaviorist is dead set against high protein food for an aggressive, reactive dog. She said that she has seen major improvements in aggression cases by just lowering the protein on the dog's food. my vet, and the trainer that I do obedience and agility also says the same thing. And I personally think that I have seen it first hand.
> 
> ...


I don't buy any of this, but if you do, and that's what you're comfortable with, and your dog does well on it- then go for it. Of course we all know the way we each feed our dogs varies, and sure, I think there's "one right way" but wh doesn't believe the way they feed their dogs is the best? If we didn't each feel it was the best way, we wouldn't be doing it, right?

That being said, I don't think it's a huge deal. I guess it depends on how much you buy into "grain free" being oh so superior. I think it's better, but not by very much at all. 


I would say in your case, with only one grain free food meeting your personal protein requirements, I would say it is to the dog's benefit to rotate grain-inclusive kibbles than it would be to not rotate at all. It's really important to use a variety or protein sources in any kind of diet, and if you stick to one, you're really upping the chances of him developing allergies. I listed some higher quality foods, that are in fact grain-inclusive, but meet your requirements, and offer a variety of protien sources for a more well rounded diet than sticking with one kibble. 

TOTW Pacific Stream (salmon, ocean fish)
Wellness Super5Mix Chicken (Chicken, obviously)
Innova Red Meat (Beef, Lamb)
Merrick Wildernedd Blend (buffalo, salmon, venison)
Canidae ALS (Chicken, turkey, lamb)


Obviously you don't have to use these, just giving an example of a rotation diet, and how to vary the protein sources. Sure, using totw paciic stream, and wellness whitefish, with merrick campfire trout, and canidae fish would be better than one food, but you really want to get as much variety in as possible. There are grain free options, but since you specified that you don't want to exceed the protein level given to you by your trainer (i hope she's better at training than she is nutrition, though) I'll stick with that. :biggrin:


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## GermanSheperdlover (Nov 15, 2009)

I happen to feed both at the moment. The only real reason I go with grain free is it seems they have a higher meat contient. Whats better brown rice vs Potato. There really isn't much good in either. I have always thought that brow rice was better than a potato but what do I know. The problem I see with the non grain free foods is that it always seems to have a lot of different gains and that is what I don't like. I do think you are right about a dogs behavior with the high protein diet. It seems mine is a little more aggressive at the dog park when he has eaten all high protein foods the night before.


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## ruckusluvr (Oct 28, 2009)

corgipaws
although you do not agree, thank you so much for not trying to push anything on me. I really do not want anyone debating on this with me, since my mind is made up and I am doing what makes me happy. Thank you so much for your advice. I think the thing about the rotation between grain and grain free food is that grain free food seems richer, and can upset tummies. so going grain free, to grain, then back to grain free might upset bellies. I know the transition from Diamond Naturals to TOTW took 3 weeks. and I would hate to do that every time.

I do not know if grain free is actually richer and can cause stomach issues easily, but that is what i have heard, and that is why we did the transition so slowly when i first switched him over to grain free. I may stop feeding TOTW all together and just do a Wellness rotation of a couple of varieties. I feel silly switching dog foods so often, but I really do not think it hurts anything. some people say pick one and stick with it. 

How often do you recommend rotation? A 30lb bag of TOTW seems to last a month and a half, if not a little longer.
Switch every bag? or every other bag? I have even read that switching only every 6-8 months was good enough.


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## CorgiPaws (Mar 31, 2009)

ruckusluvr said:


> corgipaws
> although you do not agree, thank you so much for not trying to push anything on me. I really do not want anyone debating on this with me, since my mind is made up and I am doing what makes me happy.


No worries. We each have our own methods and wht we think is best. When someone asks for opinion, by all means I share it, but you made it clear this is what you want to do, so I would hope members of this forum would respect that, and help you go that route the best way possible. 



ruckusluvr said:


> I do not know if grain free is actually richer and can cause stomach issues easily, but that is what i have heard, and that is why we did the transition so slowly when i first switched him over to grain free. I


In general, they tend to be richer, but TOTW is one of the less rich of the grain free foods on the market, EVO seems to be the richest. I wouldn't hesitate to rotate grain inclusive foods with a grain free one if they are the only ones that meet your requirements. Variety is the best thing for your dog. 



ruckusluvr said:


> . I may stop feeding TOTW all together and just do a Wellness rotation of a couple of varieties.


If you're not comfortable rotating grain free and grain inclusive, then maybe that would be better. Like I said before, I think it would be to the dog's benefit to have a rotation of quality grain inclusive kibbles than to be fed one and only one grain free kibble for life. No species can reach optimum health on eating the exact thing day in and day out from birth til death, ya know? Wellness does provide a decent variety. I don't know why I like the idea of rotating brands better, as nutritionally I don't have a single reason why it would be better. With commercial pet foods, I always worry about recalls, so I do see a benefit to having the dog accustomed to more than one brand, so if there is a recall, you don't have to do a total diet overhaul. 



ruckusluvr said:


> How often do you recommend rotation? A 30lb bag of TOTW seems to last a month and a half, if not a little longer.
> Switch every bag? or every other bag? I have even read that switching only every 6-8 months was good enough.


I'd rotate three to six times a year, depending on how your dog handles diet change. If they handle it well, then the more rotation the better... but you don't want to put them in too much digestive upset if they're more sensitive. Rotating foods that are of similar quality to eachother seems to go much more smoothly, so with the foods mentioned, it shouldn't be too crazy.


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## ruckusluvr (Oct 28, 2009)

thanks! my guys do not seem to have an easy to upset belly. I am "bad" and feed people food that I shouldnt (cheetos, a bit of ice cream etc), and give them okay to feed people food (baked chicken, cheese, yogurt etc), sometimes I cook for them, and I do switch dog foods often. So I think I am going to give it a shot, and try rotation with TOTW pacific stream and Wellness (the chicken kind)

yup, I am one of those people who usually give me dogs just a little taste of what I am eating. LOL
I cant resist begging eyes.


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## spookychick13 (Jan 26, 2010)

Did you have Rukus's thyroid checked?

We have had a fair few complaints of aggression and hyperactivity in hypothyroid dogs at work (before they were diagnosed). 

I saw this and thought maybe it was what you were looking for:
Companion Animal Behavior Program

Scroll down to Health/Genetics and aggression.

Every dog is different, and you have to do what you feel is right for your dog.
Ultimately, YOU know your dog best, don't feel judged or anything like that.


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## ruckusluvr (Oct 28, 2009)

yes Ruckus has had a full thyroid check done about 4 different times, in actually hopes that was what was wrong with him.
we have done blood work and other things too. and been to a specialist. he was a vet that specialized in medical related behavior issues. Thanks for mentioning it though!


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## DaneMama (Jun 27, 2008)

I know that some cases, if not most, can be linked to too high of carbohydrate sources in foods. Just like with humans, too much sugar in one's diet is not good. Grains and other carb sources turn to straight simple sugars in the system and can reek havoc causing all kinds of issues.


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## ajcstr (May 24, 2010)

ruckusluvr said:


> I want to keep it below 28% protein, and that is a bit hard to do. that is just what i am comfortable with.


Just saw your post - I am kind of in the same boat in that I am starting to lean toward grain free, but I don't want to go too high in protein. Our dog is pretty much a lap dog and I have read enough conflicting info that I have no idea what is right. Anyway, what did u end up doing? I was thinking of rotating between grain and non grain, but again not sure what to do. I would like to take the middle ground but not sure how to do this.

I did find a couple of foods you may be interested in also. Fromm makes a grain free surf and turf formula with 30% protein (Salmon/Duck) and NOW! Grain free (Turkey) has 28% protein. So if I do decide to go the grain free route these would be Th two i would probably rotate.


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