# I've got questions, lotsa questions!



## kelleykakes (Nov 2, 2010)

First, hi... I'm new here and also new to learning more about dog food. Feel free to hurl the beatings now 
Okay, we have two cattle dogs- Rufus is two and has started to look a little thick to me, despite a ridiculous amount of activity. Radar is just over one and is in near constant motion. 
Teeth, coats are good- check. They both chew almost constantly Rawhides, sticks... yesterday it was a fence post of all things. Yes, I removed that. They take their chewing very seriously.
Radar has a sensitive stomach and when we adopted him not too long ago he was being fed Science Diet. He had terrible gas and the runs. We switched to a lamb and rice food for sensitive stomachs that their vet recommended. We put Rufus on it as well and for a bit of time it seemed okay. Then I started really paying attention to what they were eating... and felt like the world's worst parent. 
We switched them to Nature's Recipe grain free with rice and sweet potatoes. Initially Rufus had issues and ran outside every 30 minutes, but that went away quickly. Radar still has terrible gas... now we think Rufus does, too... hard to tell since they seem to be joined at the hip, but we are pretty sure Rufus has joined in the fun.
So I started researching this dog food and am not to pleased with what I've found, but I'm not sure where to go from here.
I'm not rich. I'm married to a teacher and we have four kids. We budget. We simply cannot afford some dog food out there, but I am certain that has to be something out there that is healthy and affordable.. right? I have thought about raw foods, making my own mix for them, doing a blend of homemade with dry kibble... 
I need help, suggestions, etc.... I live in a big city with tons of locally owned dog shops. Tons. Like a scary amount. Dogs are highly regarded hear We're all about healthy here and dogs are a part of that!
Thank you all in advance!
Kelley 
mom to Rufus and Radar and four amazing children, wife to Batman


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## cprcheetah (Jul 14, 2010)

Do you have access to a Costco? My sister has a lab with a sensitive system, she feeds Kirkland Lamb & Rice and he does fine on that. It's about $24 for a 30-35# bag. So works great on a budget. I fed Shellie Nature's Recipe before I learned more about foods, but it has Menadione in it so I quit feeding that.


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## kevin bradley (Aug 9, 2009)

Many of us feel like the Diamond foods provide the best bang for the buck...Chicken Soup, 4Health, Diamond Naturals, Prem Edge, Kirkland... w/ Taste of the Wild being the clear cut best food they offer. 

Prices range from about 50 cents/lb for Kirkland and Naturals --to-- a little over $1/lb for Taste of the Wild. 

I certainly don't believe Diamond is THE best choice but its hard to argue that their position in the 'value category is pretty untouchable...and you sound like price is a factor. 

If you can find any extra pennies, I'd strongly recommend getting into Taste of the Wild if possible. The other foods are certainly ok/decent. TOTW is a darn nice food and heads and shoulders above the other Diamond options.


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## kelleykakes (Nov 2, 2010)

thanks! Okay, we're not that broke While we do have a budget to stick to, our dogs health is important and we can afford a pricier food than the big bulk stuff out there. I think right now we spend about $100 a month on dog food and chews and we can add to that if needed.


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## kevin bradley (Aug 9, 2009)

Kelley,

2 Dogs, $100/month? How much do they weigh? 

Thats a pretty decent budget.

I'd probably keep Taste of the Wild in your radar... and I'd definitely add Orijen and EVO, Honest Kitchen....and quite a few others. 

Want a short and sweet BEST dry food?
Orijen.


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## luvMyBRT (Mar 8, 2010)

If you can swing the Champion kibbles (Orijen and Acana) my advice is to pick a few of those kibbles and rotate. Having a variety would be a good thing.


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## xxshaelxx (Mar 8, 2010)

kevin bradley said:


> Kelley,
> 
> 2 Dogs, $100/month? How much do they weigh?
> 
> Thats a pretty decent budget.


Kevin, I was spending $100 a month on Solid Gold Wolf Cub and Taste of the Wild when I was feeding kibble, and I had two Siberian Husky pups that now weigh 35 and 45 pounds. haha. It's not a hard budget to achieve. 

But yet, Taste of the Wild is DEFINITELY a good option for you. Some places sell it as low as $30 for the big bag. I never really checked how many pounds it was. haha. It has been known to cause gas in some dogs, though.


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## saltydogs (Oct 31, 2010)

saraj2878 said:


> If you can swing the Champion kibbles (Orijen and Acana) my advice is to pick a few of those kibbles and rotate. Having a variety would be a good thing.


Dogs only need variety when they are trained to expect it. That is the result of the owner.

The problem with rotation feeding is if your dog develops allergies, most likely to proteins, you will have fewer options to try. Rotation feeding is a gimmic as is using multiple kibbles at a time.

Your dog will happily eat whatever you put in front of him so long as you don't spoil it.

As for the kibbles, you mentioned you are on a budget, so for the $$$ the Costco Kirkland brand is just fine.


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## chocolatelabguy (Nov 17, 2009)

kevin bradley said:


> Many of us feel like the Diamond foods provide the best bang for the buck...Chicken Soup, 4Health, Diamond Naturals, Prem Edge, Kirkland... w/ Taste of the Wild being the clear cut best food they offer.
> 
> Prices range from about 50 cents/lb for Kirkland and Naturals --to-- a little over $1/lb for Taste of the Wild.
> 
> ...


I agree with Kevin's post. I've been very happy with my switch to TOTW - the dog loves it and I've seen wonderful positive changes since switching. The price point is certainly favorable for the quality of the kibble, and it seems readily available most places.


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## xxshaelxx (Mar 8, 2010)

saltydogs said:


> Dogs only need variety when they are trained to expect it. That is the result of the owner.
> 
> The problem with rotation feeding is if your dog develops allergies, most likely to proteins, you will have fewer options to try. Rotation feeding is a gimmic as is using multiple kibbles at a time.
> 
> ...


Until you have a picky dog. Trust me, I've not spoiled my dog at all in her raw feeding, and still refuses to eat chicken.

Also, variety is a good thing, because then, if one dog food has a recall, you still have others that you don't need to transition your dog to. Or if one company goes out of business, you still have options. You can't just switch a dog to a brand it's never had before cold turkey. It causes digestive upset.

And yeah, dogs will also eat Purina, Science Diet, Ol' Roy...mostly happily, because I couldn't even get Amaya to eat that Science Diet crud when I knew nothing about kibble.


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## luvMyBRT (Mar 8, 2010)

saltydogs said:


> Dogs only need variety when they are trained to expect it. That is the result of the owner.


Wow. You just don't stop with the incorrect and misconstrued information! 

So, I want you to ONLY eat burgers for your entire life.....then see what you think about this absurd statement you have just made. VARIETY is key to a healthy diet. That is one way to develop an allergy in your dog to feed the same food day in and day out. How incredibly boring to have to eat the same thing your whole life! I feel so sorry for your dogs!!!! :frown: 



> Rotation feeding is a gimmic as is using multiple kibbles at a time.


Is everything a gimmic to you?? LOL. So once again going back to nature....do wild dogs and wolves eat the EXACT SAME THING all the time. No, they don't. I just can't wrap my head around the fact that you really believe this.....gotta be a troll. 



> Your dog will happily eat whatever you put in front of him so long as you don't spoil it.


Yet ANOTHER totally false statement. Wow. I really don't think my dogs would happily eat Ol' Roy over a fresh raw diet.



> As for the kibbles, you mentioned you are on a budget, so for the $$$ the Costco Kirkland brand is just fine.


Yes, Kirkland is a decent kibble for the money, I will give you that. She did actually state her budget was $100 per month. For this amount she could afford Acana for her pups, which is a better kibble than Kirkland. PERIOD.


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## PUNKem733 (Jun 12, 2009)

I rotate my little boy on different grain free foods, and he DOES BETTER on a variety of foods. I've been rotatring for only about a year, year and a half, and you can tell he's overall healthier.


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## saltydogs (Oct 31, 2010)

saraj2878 said:


> Wow. You just don't stop with the incorrect and misconstrued information!
> 
> So, I want you to ONLY eat burgers for your entire life.....then see what you think about this absurd statement you have just made. VARIETY is key to a healthy diet. That is one way to develop an allergy in your dog to feed the same food day in and day out. How incredibly boring to have to eat the same thing your whole life! I feel so sorry for your dogs!!!! :frown:
> 
> ...



I have never seen someone giving advise that was so misinformed. Why is Acana better? Have you done a study of the two?

Picky dogs are made not born. I have never seen a picky dog go more than 3 days without eating and then they are not picky anymore.

After three days your dog would eat any kibble. You didn't understand my comment it was not about giving the dog a choice. I was commenting about feeding different foods making dogs picky. People always say that and they don't realize the more you switch the worse they get.

By the way, I know plenty of dogs that wont eat raw food.


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## cast71 (Sep 16, 2010)

> Dogs only need variety when they are trained to expect it.


That's plain foolish. I thought it was common knowledge that dogs are scavengers. They hunt too, but will scavenge first. By instinct they eat variety, whatever meal is available. When they figured it was easy getting meals from humans, they began hanging around. Even when they began living with humans, they still got variety. It wasn't until kibble was developed, they were trained to eat the same thing everyday. The rotation diet is not a new idea.



> The problem with rotation feeding is if your dog develops allergies, most likely to proteins, you will have fewer options to try.


That's the whole idea around rotation. It's to help limit the chance of your dog becoming allergic to ingredients. It gives your dogs the ingredients in moderations, and lets there system rest. They will also be able to absorb nutrition more efficiently. 



> Rotation feeding is a gimmic


How is this a gimmick? It's not like the petfood industry is getting anymore money. Your dog still eats the same amount


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## cast71 (Sep 16, 2010)

> Picky dogs are made not born. I was commenting about feeding different foods making dogs picky. People always say that and they don't realize the more you switch the worse they get.


I've been rotating dog foods for the past 3.5 years. My dog has no problems about eating what I put down. Its simple, he eats what I put down, or he doesn't eat. It's only a problem if you let it become a problem. He's been on raw as well as different kibbles ever month. No picky eater here, nor will I tolerate It :biggrin:


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## kelleykakes (Nov 2, 2010)

kevin bradley said:


> Kelley,
> 
> 2 Dogs, $100/month? How much do they weigh?
> 
> ...


I was estimating Adding in the rawhides as well... we go through tons. They chew like... ALWAYS.
Rufus weighs just under 40lbs, and Radar is hovering around 34lbs. I want Rufus to drop a few... he looks a little thick to me right now.


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## luvMyBRT (Mar 8, 2010)

saltydogs said:


> I have never seen someone giving advise that was so misinformed. Why is Acana better? Have you done a study of the two?


Acana is better because it is GRAIN FREE and has quality ingredients. How many dogs do better once switched to a grain free diet? Tons. And, just incase you havne't noticed wild dogs and wolves have been thriving for hundreds of years without grain and corn. And another fyi (because I think you may have missed the memo) dogs DO NOT need grain in their diet! :biggrin: 



> I have never seen a picky dog go more than 3 days without eating and then they are not picky anymore.


So that's a fact?? Three days? What about four? Or five? And then all of a sudden they aren't ever picky again......hummm...well that's good to know. 



> I was commenting about feeding different foods making dogs picky. People always say that and they don't realize the more you switch the worse they get.


How can feeding a variety of different foods make a dog picky?? Please explain this. Common sense tells me that feeding the same old boring food day after day after day after day after day after day (ya get my point???) would make a picky dog. Not feeding a variety that changes things up from time to time.



> By the way, I know plenty of dogs that wont eat raw food.


Opps!!! Sounds like you didn't wait THREE days!


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## cprcheetah (Jul 14, 2010)

saltydogs said:


> Dogs only need variety when they are trained to expect it. That is the result of the owner.
> 
> The problem with rotation feeding is if your dog develops allergies, most likely to proteins, you will have fewer options to try. Rotation feeding is a gimmic as is using multiple kibbles at a time.
> 
> ...


You haven't met my chihuahua, she will NOT eat for days at a time if I let her (she HAS to eat as she has health issues which make her prone to hypoglycemia which can kill her).

As for rotating causing allergies, actually it HELPS with allergies, Zoey used to start showing signs of allergies to a food (red inflammed skin, itching, red eyes etc) after about 2 & 1/2-3 months of eating a certain protein/kibble. How do you explain that one? So I'd switch her to another protein/kibble and she would improve. Now that I feed raw I don't have that problem. So rotating is NOT a gimmick. Do you eat the SAME foods EVERY MEAL for EVERY DAY of your life? I would suspect not, why should we expect our dogs to do the same? Wolves/Coyotes in the wild don't eat the same meal every meal either. It's part of nature to have variety, after all variety is the spice of life


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## cprcheetah (Jul 14, 2010)

saltydogs said:


> I have never seen someone giving advise that was so misinformed. Why is Acana better? Have you done a study of the two?
> 
> Picky dogs are made not born. I have never seen a picky dog go more than 3 days without eating and then they are not picky anymore.
> 
> ...


Hmmmm by study do you mean how my dogs coat & poops improved while eating Acana over Kirkland? Then Yep I've done a study of the 2.  They pooped less & ate less of the Acana over the Kirkland, their coats got softer and more silky, and their eyes ran less. But you are probably wanting a scientific study, but to me the proof is in the poop & the overall appearance/health of the dog. I don't need a scientific study to know when a food is or isn't working for my dogs.

How did you come up with the 3 days to end all picky eating? I know of some rhodesian ridgebacks on a list I'm on that didn't eat for 7 days. I've worked for a Vet for over 20 years and I've never heard that 3 days is the limit on when a dog will start eating again. My dogs eat a wide variety of food now (I feed raw) and it has actually helped stimulate their appetite and make them better eaters. The more I switch things up, the better they eat, not every dog follows your 'mold'.

That's great, you seem to know a lot of dogs, that's good. I know every dog I've ever offered raw too LOVE it, granted there are some that take some time getting used to it, but evenutally they get it, and enjoy it even more than kibble.


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## cprcheetah (Jul 14, 2010)

As for the OP, I would definitely say to go with Orijen or Acana since you can problably afford it with your budget. Your dogs will eat less of it than most foods. 

As for the rawhides etc have you ever considered giving raw meaty bones for chew toys instead? Shellie my golden is a POWERHOUSE chewer, she goes through bones lickety split, I give her beef ribs, pork ribs, pork neck bones, turkey neck bones, large chicken quarters, pork feet and those keep her occupied for longer than the 10 seconds that a rawhide bone did, it also ends up being cheaper than buying all the rawhides she used to go through.


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## whiteleo (Sep 7, 2008)

I definitely would look at the Champion food line of Orijen and Acana. Acana being my top choice as it is alittle lower in protein and more dogs seem to do better on this food than Orijen. 

I also would try to find a different chew for the kids to be chewing on, rawhides are popular but they can be dangerous too esepecially when you've seen one that got swallowed and then expanded in the stomach. Meaty bones, deer antlers and bully sticks are good alternatives to rawhide chews. Good Luck!


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## cprcheetah (Jul 14, 2010)

whiteleo said:


> I definitely would look at the Champion food line of Orijen and Acana. Acana being my top choice as it is alittle lower in protein and more dogs seem to do better on this food than Orijen.
> 
> I also would try to find a different chew for the kids to be chewing on, rawhides are popular but they can be dangerous too esepecially when you've seen one that got swallowed and then expanded in the stomach. Meaty bones, deer antlers and bully sticks are good alternatives to rawhide chews. Good Luck!


Ooh I forgot about Antlers, we're getting our first ones probably on Thursday (mail) and I can't wait for my guys to try them. Bully Sticks are also great but can get costly depending on where you get them.


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## xxshaelxx (Mar 8, 2010)

saltydogs said:


> Picky dogs are made not born. I have never seen a picky dog go more than 3 days without eating and then they are not picky anymore.


OBVIOUSLY you have not met Amaya. She went three weeks eating maybe a bite of kibble each night for dinner until I switched her to raw, the same two kibbles mixed together that she had (mixed together) since she came home. She went a whole week with the same fish, hardly touching it until the last few days, given NOTHING else, not even a treat. Currently, I'm fighting her with chicken. She is not coddled, she is not given what she wants. If she doesn't eat it, she does not get it. I have fed her nothing but chicken for the last few days, and still with problems.



saltydogs said:


> By the way, I know plenty of dogs that wont eat raw food.


Oh, is that maybe because the owners gave up after a day and went back to kibble? Yeah, because it's a well known fact that dogs who have been on kibble for a long time don't know WHAT to do with a piece of raw food and have gone up to a week not eating it before they finally give in.



saraj2878 said:


> Acana is better because it is GRAIN FREE and has quality ingredients. How many dogs do better once switched to a grain free diet? Tons. And, just incase you havne't noticed wild dogs and wolves have been thriving for hundreds of years without grain and corn. And another fyi (because I think you may have missed the memo) dogs DO NOT need grain in their diet! :biggrin:


Oh, but Sara, you forget! You're talking to the person who's seen, with his very own doctor eyes, coyotes rip ears of corn off their stalks to eat, and have eaten whole grains from farmlands!!!



@ OP

I fed two dogs about the same size as yours, Taste of the Wild and Solid Gold for about $100 a month. I know that a lot of people are suggesting Acana or Orijen, but if this budget is including other things, such as chews, then you might want to shop a little cheaper than Orijen and Acana, unless you can really afford to feed a mixture of one plus another (such as Taste of the Wild, which is a really good price), or rotation, or you can look into your other options.  If you can afford the Orijen or Acana, though, DEFINITELY get one or the other, because they are the best of the best.  You can check out the top five dog foods post to confirm.


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## kelleykakes (Nov 2, 2010)

cprcheetah said:


> As for the OP, I would definitely say to go with Orijen or Acana since you can problably afford it with your budget. Your dogs will eat less of it than most foods.
> 
> As for the rawhides etc have you ever considered giving raw meaty bones for chew toys instead? Shellie my golden is a POWERHOUSE chewer, she goes through bones lickety split, I give her beef ribs, pork ribs, pork neck bones, turkey neck bones, large chicken quarters, pork feet and those keep her occupied for longer than the 10 seconds that a rawhide bone did, it also ends up being cheaper than buying all the rawhides she used to go through.


I had always heard that bones can splinter and cause severe issues for dogs?? Huh. We get those long rolled up tight type of rawhides and they last a few days and I take them away when they get too small to make me feel comfortable. I gave Rufus a huge knuckle bone last year and he carried it around for a while and we took it away when it splintered into sharp pieces. He enjoyed it, but was awfully evil if you came near him!


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## cprcheetah (Jul 14, 2010)

kelleykakes said:


> I had always heard that bones can splinter and cause severe issues for dogs?? Huh. We get those long rolled up tight type of rawhides and they last a few days and I take them away when they get too small to make me feel comfortable. I gave Rufus a huge knuckle bone last year and he carried it around for a while and we took it away when it splintered into sharp pieces. He enjoyed it, but was awfully evil if you came near him!


If the bones are RAW they don't splinter it is cooked bones that splinter & can cause problems. The Knuckle Bones you have to be careful with they are called "Wreck" bones as they can chip/break their teeth. Which I wish wasn't the case as they kept Shellie occupied for a long time.


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## Ania's Mommy (Feb 8, 2009)

I also want to add that if the knuckle bone you gave your dog was marketed towards dogs, chances are very good that it was cooked. Which would be why it started splintering. I believe that almost all "dog bones" are cooked.

I would also ditch the rawhides in favor of bully sticks, antlers, and/or raw meaty bones such as beef ribs.


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## SamWu1 (Oct 15, 2010)

Anything grain-free, my top brands would be Orijen, Acana, Wellness Core, Great Life Grain and Potato Free and perhaps TOTW for a good value.


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## kelleykakes (Nov 2, 2010)

Ania's Mommy said:


> I also want to add that if the knuckle bone you gave your dog was marketed towards dogs, chances are very good that it was cooked. Which would be why it started splintering. I believe that almost all "dog bones" are cooked.
> 
> I would also ditch the rawhides in favor of bully sticks, antlers, and/or raw meaty bones such as beef ribs.


It was marketed for dogs... I now feel shame I really had no idea on that one. We saw this huge bone and got it for Rufus' Christmas stocking. He loved on that thing for nearly a month!

I had no idea you could purchase antlers?! Crazy!


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## Ania's Mommy (Feb 8, 2009)

kelleykakes said:


> It was marketed for dogs... I now feel shame I really had no idea on that one. We saw this huge bone and got it for Rufus' Christmas stocking. He loved on that thing for nearly a month!
> 
> I had no idea you could purchase antlers?! Crazy!


Don't feel ashamed! We were all there at one time. 

There's a few threads here on deer antlers.

http://dogfoodchat.com/forum/raw-feeding/1796-antlers-treats.html

http://dogfoodchat.com/forum/dry-canned-dog-food/2163-elk-antlers.html


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