# Should I feed my small breed pup grain free or start out assuming he has no allergies



## dredges (May 18, 2012)

I recently brought home a 10 week old Brussels Griffon Puppy 
We named him Quentin.

The breeder was feeding him a mix of Billjack puppy, Kirkland puppy, a spoonful of Caesar or mighty dog and a dab of yogurt.
We didn't like those brands and wanted to get him a better food so off to the store we went.

I previously had fed my ex girlfriend's dogs Wellness small breed so I started to grab their sm breed puppy formula when the store clerk talked me into the many benefits of going grain free and how "Taste of the Wild" was what he recommends etc..

So we weened him on to the Taste of the Wild High prairie Puppy.

I'm not sure if my pup has any allergies or conditions, but I did notice that his super sticky eye mucus has seemed to slowed down, but that could be that I'm cleaning his eyes, and trimming the hair so it's not getting in his eyes, and the breeder wasn't?

So then the Taste of the Wild recall happened about 1/20th in to our first bag and it made me upset, so back to a better food store I went, this time loaded up with research in to what is considered the best 5 star foods etc..

Price wasn't too much of a concern because he's so little and only eats like a cup a day, so...
now I'm in the middle of switching my sm breed pup over to the regular Orijen puppy kibble and he recently has begun to poop a ton, nothing soft or runny but he goes like 8 times a day when he was going maybe 4 times a day on taste of the wild. 

Should I be concerned?

The more I research kibble the more confused I get.
Now I'm starting to second guess my thought that he should be on grain free food in the first place.
I mean he didn't really show much signs of being allergic to anything, he doesn't have any dandruff anymore and doesn't seem to scratch as much, and the eye boogers, but those were light to begin with...
He scoots after every poop but maybe that's just his thing, I have never had a dog do that before but that soulds like a fiber issue, but he is pooping a lot so I'm not sure.

Can I be doing him any harm by not feeding him "good" grains?

I was really interested in *Nutrisource sm/med breed puppy food*:
Guaranteed Analysis:

US Metric
Crude Protein (Min.) 32.0% 320 g/kg
Crude Fat (Min.) 21.0% 210 g/kg
Crude Fiber (Max.) 5.0% 50 g/kg
Moisture (Max.) 10.0% 100 g/kg
Selenium (Min.) 0.5 mg/kg 0.5 mg/kg
Vitamin E (Min.) 175 IU/kg 175 IU/kg
*Omega - 6 Fatty Acids (Min.) 3.5% 35 g/kg
*Omega - 3 Fatty Acids (Min.) 0.8% 8 g/kg
*Docosahexaenoic Acid 0.05% 0.5 mg/kg
* Ascorbic Acid (Vitamin C) (Min.) 100 mg/kg 
* Total Microorgansims (Min.) 100 Million CFU/lb** 

Ingredients:

Chicken meal, chicken, brown rice, white rice, fish meal (a source of fish oil), oatmeal, chicken fat (preserved with mixed tocopherols), flax seeds, beet pulp-dried, tomato pomace, sunflower oil, natural chicken flavor, dried egg product, etc...etc...etc...

and I have spoken with them and they said they didn't recommend me feeding their grain free line to my pup but to go with the above.

I have also spoken with Fromm.
I am really impressed with their customer service and products, they said I could feed the 4 star line and the 4 star grain free line, but they suggested going with just the plain *Fromm gold puppy* kibble:
Guaranteed Analysis
Crude Protein	27% Min
Crude Fat	18% Min
Crude Fiber	3.5% Max
Moisture	10% Max
Total Microorganisms	100,000,000 CFU/lb Min

Calorie Content
kcal/kg	4,289.70
kcal/lb	1,949.86
kcal/g	4.29
kcal/cup*	411.84
Ingredients:

Fresh Duck
Chicken Meal
Fresh Chicken
Oatmeal
Pearled Barley
Menhaden Fish Meal
Brown Rice
Chicken Fat
Fresh Lamb
Fresh Russet Potatoes
Dried-Tomato Pomace
Whole Egg
Salmon Oil
.............. etc... etc....
Taurine
Chicory Root Extract
Yucca Schidigera Extract
Sodium Selenite
Vitamins
vitamin A acetate, Vitamin D3 supplement, Vitamin E supplement, Vitamin B12 supplement, choline bitartrate, niacin supplement, d-calcium pantothenate, L-Ascorbyl-2-polyphosphate, riboflavin supplement, thiamine mononitrate, pyridoxine hydrochloride, folic acid, biotin
Minerals
zinc sulfate, ferrous sulfate, manganous sulfate, magnesium sulfate, copper sulfate, cobalt carbonate, calcium iodate, sorbic acid (preservative), ferrous proteinate, zinc proteinate, copper proteinate, manganese proteinate, magnesium proteinate, cobalt proteinate
Probiotics
dried lactobacillus acidophilus fermentation product, dried bifidobacterium longum fermentation product, dried lactobacillus plantarum fermentation product, dried enterococcous faecium fermentation product

Ugh, I'm over thinking this

I have only started mixing in the Orijen, I could easily begin to switch to something else





here is *orijen puppy* as comparison:
GUARANTEED ANALYSIS
Crude protein (min.) 40.0 %
Crude fat (min.) 20.0 %
Crude fiber (max) 3.0 %
Moisture (max) 10.0 %
Calcium (min./max.) 1.5 % / 1.7 %
Phosphorus (min./max.) 1.2 % / 1.4 %
Omega-6 (min.) 3.0 %
Omega-3 (min.) 1.2 %
DHA (min.) 0.6 %
EPA (min.) 0.3 %
AA (min.) 0.1 %
Carbohydrate (max) 20%
Ash (max) 7.5%
Taurine (min.) 0.35 %
Glucosamine (min.) 1500 mg/kg
Chondroitin (min.) 1200 mg/kg
Microorganisms (min.) 120M cfu/kg
pH 5.2
Fresh boneless chicken*, chicken meal, fresh boneless salmon*, turkey meal, herring meal, russet potato, chicken fat (preserved with mixed tocopherols), sweet potato, peas, fresh boneless turkey*, fresh whole eggs*, fresh chicken liver*, fresh boneless lake whitefish*, fresh boneless walleye* etc.....


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## 1605 (May 27, 2009)

dredges said:


> I recently brought home a 10 week old Brussels Griffon Puppy
> We named him Quentin.
> 
> The breeder was feeding him a mix of Billjack puppy, Kirkland puppy, a spoonful of Caesar or mighty dog and a dab of yogurt.
> ...


Firstly, I'm not a fan of subdivided types of food like "small" or "medium" breed. IMHO, the only ones that REALLY need special attention as puppies are TRUE LARGE BREEDS such as Great Danes. And there are certainly size-specific issues that need to be addressed with them when they are young. But that's not the case with you.

If your dog is doing well on Orijen, why not keep him on it? Too much "output", esp if it is quite soft, means you are feeding him too much of that food. When you give dogs a more calorie-dense/protein rich food you need to cut down on the quantity. Use the amounts on the bag ONLY as a starting point & work DOWN from there. If your dog starts to look too thin, add a little more, until you get to the "sweet spot" for your dog.

Your dog's activity level and what treats you also give him ultimately will also factor into how much Orijen you give him. But start with the "main feed" and work up/down from there.

Bonne chance,


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## Maxy24 (Mar 5, 2011)

I'd try feeding him less first. Orijen has more calories than TOTW, so less should be fed. Try that and see if it cuts down on his pooping. Excess waste and gas is often an over feeding issue. Grain free is perfectly fine for puppies, especially small breed puppies. There is nothing wrong with feeding a high quality grain inclusive food either, as long as they are not using the grain as a replacement for meat.


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## DaViking (Sep 27, 2011)

I second what SubMariner and Maxy24 said. Reduce the amounts a little. Some newer grain free formulas will produce more stool volume. That's a result of the dietary fiber used in most cases and doesn't necessarily say anything about the uptake of nutrients present in the formula. It's just a more rapid easier digestion without dry bowel movements. 
At least give it 8 weeks before you evaluate a formula, unless it is mostly diarrhea. If Orijen doesn't work out both the formulas you listed are great alternatives. And I am sure many would pick Fromm Gold over Orijen. When it comes to grains it's not so much about yes or no. In my opinion it's more about the amount and types of grain products used. My preferences are up to around 30% carbs (grains or no grains), and no wheat or corn in a maintenance/pet formula. Some corn *can* play a role for certain performance requirements (formulas) but not used as a cheap source of plant proteins in low end formulas.


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## PDXdogmom (Jun 30, 2010)

DaViking said:


> I second what SubMariner and Maxy24 said. Reduce the amounts a little. Some newer grain free formulas will produce more stool volume. That's a result of the dietary fiber used in most cases and doesn't necessarily say anything about the uptake of nutrients present in the formula. It's just a more rapid easier digestion without dry bowel movements.
> At least give it 8 weeks before you evaluate a formula, unless it is mostly diarrhea. If Orijen doesn't work out both the formulas you listed are great alternatives. And I am sure many would pick Fromm Gold over Orijen. When it comes to grains it's not so much about yes or no. In my opinion it's more about the amount and types of grain products used. My preferences are up to around 30% carbs (grains or no grains), and no wheat or corn in a maintenance/pet formula. Some corn *can* play a role for certain performance requirements (formulas) but not used as a cheap source of plant proteins in low end formulas.


Well, I was going to comment, but this post pretty much says it all.


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## Celt (Dec 27, 2010)

I have to say that I'm a bit different in my views, but why not try them all. Personally, I've always believed starting a pup out with a lot of different foods could prevent a lot of stomache sensitivities. I've fed mine everything from good quality kibble to not so good, grainfree, with grain, canned food, raw, premade raw, freeze dried, homecooked (didn't last too long, way to much "work"). So, personally, I would buy a few bags that I liked and feed the variety. Oh, my 2 are Italian Greyhounds, so small breed too


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## Unosmom (May 3, 2009)

if orijen is too rich, you can try grain free acana, its little less protein.


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## dredges (May 18, 2012)

thanks for the advice guys.
btw he moved his bowels 3 more times today, so 11 times so far? That seems freaky, like way more material then I'm feeding him.

He doesn't even eat that much, I offer him a 1/3 cup, 3 times a day and throw half of it out after in sits there an hour or so.

Maybe he was backed up?
It seems sort of firm, like he has to try to get it going.


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## DaViking (Sep 27, 2011)

dredges said:


> thanks for the advice guys.
> btw he moved his bowels 3 more times today, so 11 times so far? That seems freaky, like way more material then I'm feeding him.
> 
> He doesn't even eat that much, I offer him a 1/3 cup, 3 times a day and throw half of it out after in sits there an hour or so.
> ...


11 times is a lot, I am pretty sure that number will come down. Our 10 months old JackArainian had many bowel movements throughout the day when we took him from Kirkland (the breeder) to Fromm Surf & Turf. Today he only goes twice per day on another brand. How long has it been since you got him, how old is he now? A menu of Billjack, Kirkland, Mighty dog, Caesar and yogurt like your breeder fed him doesn't sound all to good. So from that concoction to TotW to Orijen might just be a lot for him specially if it's not been that many weeks. Unless he starts with diarrhea and/or vomiting I'd stay the course for now.


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## dredges (May 18, 2012)

I sort of want to try Fromm's Gold Puppy, but I will stay the course with the Orijen puppy, if you guys think it's best.


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## Jacksons Mom (Jun 13, 2010)

I don't really think pooing 11x a day is normal at all.... even when transitioning. Orijen may not work for your pup (it doesn't work for a lot... it tends to be really rich). Personally, I don't think most of our non-working dogs utilize much of the protein anyways but that's just my feeling now. I feed Acana (using the newer 'Singles' line - lamb & apple, duck and pear, and chicken & potato) as it's a bit less protein and a more simple formula. But I think the Acana grainfrees would be fine for your little one. Same company as Orijen but less rich.


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## SaharaNight Boxers (Jun 28, 2011)

I found a food by Nature's Variety today that seems interesting. It's Instinct Raw Boost kibble. It's a kibble that is mixed with freeze dried raw meat. I think it's a nice mix of both kibble and raw that is as convenient as kibble. Nature's Variety seems to be a good company too. Not too many recalls or anything, good ingresients and formulas. I migth give it a shot until we switch to raw. 

It seems like most people get good poops on Instinct too. But 11x a day is outrageous! Make sure he's getting enough water, you definitely wouldn't want him to get dehydrated. And as much as I agree witht he richness thing, i would try to stick with a food that has meat more than anything as it's easier for them to digest. You might want to try an easier protein for him to digest also like chicken or turkey. The darker the mest the more rich it is and more rich equals looser poops.


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## dredges (May 18, 2012)

what Acana kibble would be best for a small breed puppy?
The funny thing is I found this pic online but have never seen it in a store:

http://www.thepetmate.com/media/cat...8d6e5fb8d27136e95/a/c/acana_puppy_small_3.jpg


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## Celt (Dec 27, 2010)

Have you had a fecal test done? Most of the pups I've had that did the bootyscoot (especially with lots of pooping), generally, had a "condition" that was causing the itchies. Of course, my niece's poms will do that if their poop is "sticking" to them.


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## DaViking (Sep 27, 2011)

SaharaNight Boxers said:


> I found a food by Nature's Variety today that seems interesting. It's Instinct Raw Boost kibble. It's a kibble that is mixed with freeze dried raw meat. I think it's a nice mix of both kibble and raw that is as convenient as kibble. Nature's Variety seems to be a good company too. Not too many recalls or anything, good ingresients and formulas. I migth give it a shot until we switch to raw.
> 
> It seems like most people get good poops on Instinct too. But 11x a day is outrageous! Make sure he's getting enough water, you definitely wouldn't want him to get dehydrated. And as much as I agree witht he richness thing, i would try to stick with a food that has meat more than anything as it's easier for them to digest. You might want to try an easier protein for him to digest also like chicken or turkey. The darker the mest the more rich it is and more rich equals looser poops.


Stay far away. Natures Variety have no problem using Chinese ingredients and sources low quality meals. I'd actually feel more at ease with companies who use Chinese vitamin pre-mixes, they are at least chemically pure and poses no risk, regardless of the debate about completeness or not. I don't care if they have US trained inspectors where they source their Chinese ingredients, wouldn't touch it with a ten foot pole. That they see no problem sourcing Chinese ingredients in the first place speaks volumes about the company. Search here and Google them and you'll find their own statement on what products and why they use Chinese ingredients. Secondly, the non China ingredients comes from all over the world. They are worst in the class when it comes to "short traveled food" Not supportng local and domestic businesses at all. Bad profile, avoid.

Chinese Food: Here’s what’s in the chicken jerky that’s poisoning our pets | Dirty Popcorn


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## SaharaNight Boxers (Jun 28, 2011)

I just checked. The only thing they source from China is rabbit and that's not in any of the raw boost kibbles. But it does apply to the raw and canned food.


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## Jacksons Mom (Jun 13, 2010)

Doesn't NV have really high ash levels, too?


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## dredges (May 18, 2012)

I posted a reply yesterday but I think I included a link to Acana puppy food, and since I'm new here it needs to be approved first etc...

but I was wondering since I gather you can only get Acana grain free lines here in the states and not their "puppy" food, What grain free Acana would you chose for a small breed Pup?
and what Fromm's would you choose ?

I was looking in to the Surf and Turf but I read somewhere that there is some concern about feeding a small pup so much fish..... would surf and turf be considered a fish food?
I also read that some Acana's have too high cal/pho? but isn't that more of a concern with lrg breed puppies anyways?

The girl at the feed shop seemed to think that if it was her pup she would avoid chicken and chicken meal for for possible allergy reasons, but I have read that you shouldn't feed hypoallergenic to a pup unless it's needed.


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## SaharaNight Boxers (Jun 28, 2011)

You are right that the calcium/phosphorus levels have more to do with large breed pups. Although some even recommend feeding adult food at like 6-8 months. Either way for Acana I would choose the Praireland. 
http://www.championpetfoods.com/acana/fetch-pdf.php?pdf=ACANA-phfd.pdf
It has less rich proteins and is based on chicken which is super gentle. You may want to stick with this until he's a little older or his tummy is better and then get on a red meat formula.

And for Fromm I would go with the Gamebird recipe. 
http://frommfamily.com/products/four-star/dog/dry/grain-free-game-bird-recipe
Same reason as above, easier on the tummy. 

I don't know too much about the fish thing, but I don't see any harm in it. And trust me I would stick with grain free. Duke has been so much better since switching to grain free. He uses to get yeast infections in his ears a lot and that stopped and he is so much shinier and more streamlined.


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## 1605 (May 27, 2009)

dredges said:


> I posted a reply yesterday but I think I included a link to Acana puppy food, and since I'm new here it needs to be approved first etc...
> 
> but I was wondering since I gather you can only get Acana grain free lines here in the states and not their "puppy" food, What grain free Acana would you chose for a small breed Pup?
> and what Fromm's would you choose ?
> ...


I think the "possible allergy reasons" line is creating problems that may not exist. Pick a food you think is good & stick with it, otherwise you are encouraging your dog to be picky. A dog won't starve itself, so even if it appears not to "really like" the food to begin with, it WILL eat it.

You are starting to over-complicate this process. Decide on a good food that is easy to find in your area and is decently priced. That is a good starting point.

JMHO,


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## dredges (May 18, 2012)

I traded in the Orijen Puppy for a bag of Acana Wild Prairie grain free dog food.

Champion Petfoods | ACANA | Products

It's pretty rich still, but a little less then the Orijen and grain free, and the price is a lot better, about $1.75 per pound, cost me less than Fromm 4 star.

I'll give it a go and see how he does.


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## PDXdogmom (Jun 30, 2010)

dredges said:


> I traded in the Orijen Puppy for a bag of Acana Wild Prairie grain free dog food.
> 
> Champion Petfoods | ACANA | Products
> 
> ...


I think that's a good place to start. All the Acana grain-free formulas are "all life stages" food. And I would doubt that a puppy would have an intolerance to chicken. Chicken has the most complete amino acid profile; so it's worth trying that first. If you had chosen the Fromm company, I think the Fromm Puppy Gold would have been the best formula.


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## PDXdogmom (Jun 30, 2010)

Jacksons Mom said:


> Doesn't NV have really high ash levels, too?


Yes, they do. For example, the NV Limited Ingredient Lamb Meal has 12% ash and the NV Limited Ingredient Turkey Meal has 10% ash. Considering the specific meat meal is the only protein listed in the formula, it certainly makes one think that a lower quality meal (containing more bones) is being used.


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## dredges (May 18, 2012)

ugh, I think I'm losing my mind.

ok so what does high Calcium do to puppies? Does it matter for small breed puppies? Because I swear Acana updated their web site tonight and changed the formula to 2% min calcium and it now reads nutrition for your Adult dog.
My bag still reads min cal= 1.3, max cal=1.5, but the new pdf reads different.
Am I missing something here?


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## SaharaNight Boxers (Jun 28, 2011)

PDXdogmom said:


> Yes, they do. For example, the NV Limited Ingredient Lamb Meal has 12% ash and the NV Limited Ingredient Turkey Meal has 10% ash. Considering the specific meat meal is the only protein listed in the formula, it certainly makes one think that a lower quality meal (containing more bones) is being used.



Thank you. I really hadn't known that.


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## PDXdogmom (Jun 30, 2010)

dredges said:


> ugh, I think I'm losing my mind.
> 
> ok so what does high Calcium do to puppies? Does it matter for small breed puppies? Because I swear Acana updated their web site tonight and changed the formula to 2% min calcium and it now reads nutrition for your Adult dog.
> My bag still reads min cal= 1.3, max cal=1.5, but the new pdf reads different.
> Am I missing something here?


I just looked at the Acana Wild Prairie for dogs and it says for "all breeds and all life stages" with 1.3% minimum calcium. Might you have been looking at the cat formula? The wording is in very light print.


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## dredges (May 18, 2012)

Ok, I figured it out sort of,



The difference is in weather your looking at "championpetfoods dot com" or "Acana dot com"
It appears the Calcium is different depending on if it's made for export or for in Canada use? or something, anyways the stuff on "Acana dot com" has more calcium.


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