# Am I right to be annoyed?



## CavePaws (Jan 25, 2011)

Since I've gotten enough opinions on this by now I think I'll just take it down. This topic will be brought up in the future with them, but I want to know as much as I can before I do bring it up so my argument sounds convincing, I've never advised them of dog food and they seemed skeptical to the idea of raw feeding. When the time is right and it's brought up I'll talk to them about it. Until then, no one want's to hear anything negative on the internet.

If this really is the number 1 dog food chat community, don't you think it might be sort of easy to find?  Preservation of relationships I care about is important.


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## PUNKem733 (Jun 12, 2009)

Of course you should be annoyed. You're surrounded by what seems like idiots, who can't be bothered to do some real research. I say idiots because if they are teaching that, which we all know is wrong, as the truth, well then I call it how I see it.

Why would you get fired? Is this a class for work?


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## CavePaws (Jan 25, 2011)

Yes, it's my job. I work for a training center and am not the main instructor for this class as I do not have my certification yet. I''m pretty close to being done collecting all my hours for it, but I have to graduate first. I'm in 12th grade, but I'm home schooled - I chose to be - so my time is mostly spent training dogs and teaching in classes. Almost done with all my school work, and I want to do schooling to become a vet tech so I can do that and train dogs for the rest of my life.


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## practicalfeeder (Feb 12, 2011)

PUNKem733 said:


> Of course you should be annoyed. You're surrounded by what seems like idiots, who can't be bothered to do some real research. I say idiots because if they are teaching that, which we all know is wrong, as the truth, well then I call it how I see it.
> 
> Why would you get fired? Is this a class for work?


You two are not experts stop parading around talking about the research you do.

How about this. If you want people to feed rip-off foods why don't you pay for them.

You two know absolutely ZERO. Maybe I am wrong but tell me why anyone should listen to you. 

I would listen to this guy first:

Lance Mackey
Career Highlights
Iditarod Champion 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010
Yukon Quest Champion and record holder, 2005, 2006, 2007, 2008
2005 Yukon Quest "Rookie of the Year" Award
2006 Yukon Quest "Dawson Half Way" Award
2005, 2006 Yukon Quest "Golden Harness" Awards (Larry and Hobo)
Iditarod Top 10 Finisher, 2005 & 2006
2006 Copper Basin 300 Champion
2006 Kobuk 440 Champion
2003 Knik 200 Champion

Robert Downey
Lifelong involvement with dogs
• Graduate of The Ohio State University
• Graduate work at University of Pennsylvania School of Veterinary Medicine
• President of Annamaet Petfoods
• Currently maintains a kennel of 25 racing sled dogs.
• 2006 8-Dog & 10-Dog ISDRA Gold Medalist
• 2008 8-Dog North American Champion
• 2009 Bronze Medal IFSS World Championship
• Vice Chairman of the International Sled Dog Racing Association


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## whiteleo (Sep 7, 2008)

Don't feed the troll!


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## CavePaws (Jan 25, 2011)

whiteleo said:


> Don't feed the troll!


:rofl:
That got a giggle out of me.


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## 1605 (May 27, 2009)

CavePaws said:


> Yes, it's my job. I work for a training center and am not the main instructor for this class as I do not have my certification yet. I''m pretty close to being done collecting all my hours for it, but I have to graduate first. I'm in 12th grade, but I'm home schooled - I chose to be - so my time is mostly spent training dogs and teaching in classes. Almost done with all my school work, and I want to do schooling to become a vet tech so I can do that and train dogs for the rest of my life.
> 
> Anyway, LOL, you did call it. I just don't think it'd be too professional of _me_to say anything like that about my co-workers. The internet is a public place!  I do really enjoy the people I work with though, the kibble thing just completely gets to me and I don't know how to approach the subject with them...


Correct me if I'm wrong, but would I be correct in assuming that the training centre where you work SELLS Kirkland? Or that Kirkland is what the Owner prefers? If this is the case, then I'm afraid you'll either have to bite your tongue or find another place to work.

I am a an independent scuba instructor. One of the main reasons I'm independent is if I actually worked FOR a particular store, they may well expect me to only talk about the gear THEY sell or the courses THEY offer. In fact, many of them will demand that you only use the equipment that THEY stock when I instruct for them. How's THAT for restrictive?

So, unless you're actively looking for another job, I'd just keep my head down on this one...


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## PUNKem733 (Jun 12, 2009)

I'm with subbie, just do what needs to be done for your career, and keep quiet. Once you get going into your line of work, then you can really help people out.


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## CavePaws (Jan 25, 2011)

edit: lots of things are entirely unprofessional. But the subject in my mind of the morality of it came up. Thanks for the input. :]


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## RawFedDogs (Jun 16, 2008)

practicalfeeder said:


> You two are not experts stop parading around talking about the research you do.


I've told you before to stop telling people what to post around here. Although I'm not a kibble feeder, I was at one time and I have a lot more faith in what CavePaws and PUNKem733 say than anything you have posted since you have been here. You believe too much of the promotional material from the dog food companies.



> How about this. If you want people to feed rip-off foods why don't you pay for them.


Thats just silly. You gotta come up with better than this.



> You two know absolutely ZERO. Maybe I am wrong but tell me why anyone should listen to you.


And tell us one more time how much training you have in canine nutrition? How many extra hours of research outside of that one SMALL ANIMAL nutrition class do you have? You are just not showing any knowledge at all. 



> I would listen to this guy first:
> 
> Lance Mackey
> Career Highlights
> ...


Are you so naive that you don't realize that people like Lance Mackey get paid money to say he feeds his dogs X brand of dog food? Accomplished athletes get paid *BIG* money to endorse products. That's how it works in the real world.



> Robert Downey
> Lifelong involvement with dogs
> • Graduate of The Ohio State University
> • Graduate work at University of Pennsylvania School of Veterinary Medicine
> *• President of Annamaet Petfoods*


And this guy is going to admit that some other brand of dog food is superior to his? Come on now. Use your head.

You really have a couple of unbiased testimonials here. :biggrin:


*NOTE TO PF:* If you don't start using a little more tact, your days are numbered here. And the number is getting real small.


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## RawFedDogs (Jun 16, 2008)

CavePaws said:


> Almost done with all my school work, and I want to do schooling to become a vet tech so I can do that and train dogs for the rest of my life.


I'd LOVE to see you go on to vet school and become a vet. You are smart enought for that and would be a big asset to the training world of you had that degree. Think of Ian Dunbar. Sirius Dog Training Don't limit yourself.



> the kibble thing just completely gets to me and I don't know how to approach the subject with them...


You'll figure out a way when the time comes. Just don't use practiclefeeder as an example of how to approach them. :biggrin:


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## CavePaws (Jan 25, 2011)

RFD, I think I saw somewhere you said you taught/trained...Do you have an opinion on this sort of thing?

I'd like to take a few courses on nutrition so I'd be more qualified in my suggestions to people as a trainer when I'm certified. I wouldn't know where to go for proper nutrition classes though, I'm sure I could find a seminar around at some point. Preferably in the state I live in. D:!

I've been to a few Dunbar seminars! I LOVE him. He's such a great speaker, his head is like a giant database for training information. I just want to pick through it for more and more info whenever I'm there.

Lol, it's not like he skimps on the info either. Those seminars are like 8 hours long each day.


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## RawFedDogs (Jun 16, 2008)

CavePaws said:


> RFD, I think I saw somewhere you said you taught/trained...Do you have an opinion on this sort of thing?


I was a professional dog trainer for 15 years. I don't do it any longer except for special cases where other trainers have had problems. I do know that very few people make much money in the field of dog training. It takes much more than being an excellent dog trainer. You have to be a great business person also. You have to have a lot of drive and energy.



> I'd like to take a few courses on nutrition so I'd be more qualified in my suggestions to people as a trainer when I'm certified. I wouldn't know where to go for proper nutrition classes though, I'm sure I could find a seminar around at some point. Preferably in the state I live in. D:!


Check w/ colleges and universities in your area. Even taking courses in human nutrition would be helpful as you would learn how the digestive system works. Dog and human GI tract is very similar. The pancreas secretes a little different enzymes and the intestines are constructed a little different but other than that, they are very similar. 



> I've been to a few Dunbar seminars! I LOVE him. He's such a great speaker, his head is like a giant database for training information. I just want to pick through it for more and more info whenever I'm there.
> 
> Lol, it's not like he skimps on the info either. Those seminars are like 8 hours long each day.


I agree and what I'm trying to tell you is that you can reach that level also, but not if you limit yourself to being a vet tech and local trainer. Another role model to look at is Patricia Mcconnell. About Us at Patricia McConnell Her education went along the path of Zoology and Animal behavior. I'm just saying, look at what you are capable of doing and don't limit yourself. There is more than one path to where you want to get to.

To my wonderful friends on this board who are vet techs, I hope you don't think knocking that profession. I am merely telling CavePaws that there are other options that will get her to higher places in the dog training world. I think she is capable of achieving that.


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## kevin bradley (Aug 9, 2009)

another vote for Cave going to Vet school. If you have excellent grades, do well in school...especially science, I'd opt for Vet school. 

We need better Vets who really focus on preventitive work. 

I like my Vet but his last comment to me was "Science Diet and Iams are the only brands I recommend nowadays." I just laughed even though it probably wasn't funny.


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## CavePaws (Jan 25, 2011)

I agree, becoming a Vet Tech would in a way limit me to what I can do/am qualified to do in the dog training world. Becoming a Veterinarian who specializes in behavior would be awesome and a dream job for me. Patricia is an amazing role model to look up to. I'm young, so I still have lots of time to figure out exactly where I'm going. I think I'm on the right track so far, I don't see how earning my CPDT-KA this early would hinder me in any way. The only thing bad that I could see happening is me getting so caught up in local training that I wouldn't give much thought to other things in life - like what you've said about eventually earning a doctorate. I love writing, it would be so cool to eventually write a book as well. I'm really only up to my ankles in training right now, I wouldn't mind being completely submerged. What I mean by that is that I'd like to learn as much as I possibly can about canines and animal behavior in my life time. Should I accomplish that I would want to share as much information as I possibly could. It really would all be for the betterment of the way we live with and understand our dogs.

Thanks Kevin!  I'm still sort of floored at how many vets recommend that crud. The vet I just switched Indi to commended me for feeding her a grain free kibble. I didn't see one bag of science diet in the facility. Weird, huh? Maybe they were hiding it in the back!! I wonder what she'll say when I take Indi back for blood work in a few months, by then she should be on an all raw diet. :O

This discussion sort of lit a fire under my bum. I need to go work on school work now. D:


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## kevin bradley (Aug 9, 2009)

Cave,

I'll just leave you with one last thought... don't sell yourself short. There's certainly nothing wrong with being a Tech. But you are young and if you have the aptitude and energy to get through Vet school, why not? Admittedly, you do need a certain level of god given ability to survive the level of schooling you would need. But it sure sounds like you are an extremely sharp young kid. 

Go for it. Then you can be our Forum Vet


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## CavePaws (Jan 25, 2011)

That's what I'm scared of. The schooling. :tape:


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## RawFedDogs (Jun 16, 2008)

CavePaws said:


> That's what I'm scared of. The schooling. :tape:


Why? You've already had 12 years or more of learning. Another 6 or 8 won't be all that difficult. I suspect you might find it easy. It will make a HUGE difference in your life.


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## stajbs (Jun 5, 2010)

Noooo CavePaws, reach for the stars!!! Don't let anything hold you back from achieving your dreams. You don't want to get to be my age and reflecting back and saying oh, I wish I had done this and that......Not that 50 is over the hill, but we have a grandson now and we are much more committed to remaining in PA when 15 years ago we were totally planning to move. Go for it!!!


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## CavePaws (Jan 25, 2011)

You both are right. I'td be nice to look back on my life and think I actually accomplished something as great as becoming a veterinarian. I just have to put things in perspective of time and costs. That must take an incredible amount of time and commitment, if I do think about it another 8 years doesn't sound bad at all...not when I'm studying to do something that I love which will give me a lot of happiness.

edit: and should you notice half of this thread deleted by me, it's because if this really is one of the number one dog nutrition communities, and this page is pulled up, I don't want to risk things if you know what I mean. I'll talk about it when the time is right that's for sure. These sort of things aren't exactly great to see on the internet.


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## GermanSheperdlover (Nov 15, 2009)

practicalfeeder said:


> You two are not experts stop parading around talking about the research you do.
> 
> How about this. If you want people to feed rip-off foods why don't you pay for them.
> 
> ...


Why don't you ask these two clowns how many dogs they put down every year ????? I am involved in a group that rescues the dogs these ashloes kill every year. I live near Seattle and I am sick of these mushers putting so many dogs down. Quoting guys who are no better than guys who fight pitbulls is just down right stupid. I'll try to find the article that was recently in the Seattle Times about these jackas's. Downey and Mackey are just 2 of the many low life's who use dogs for short term use, than they kill them. Nothing more than pitbull fighters in my world. I have seen it first hand, absolute dirtbags !!!!!


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## kevin bradley (Aug 9, 2009)

if these "experts" are like the devils that killed those Dogs in Canada(someone posted this last week)....

I'd rather not use their "expertise" either.


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## GermanSheperdlover (Nov 15, 2009)

You should see the PM this guy sent me. I sent it to the owner of this site, so I doubt he will be around much longer....:ban:


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## GermanSheperdlover (Nov 15, 2009)

Pretty sad article, there was another one which I could not find, that quotes a guy who got down into the grave hole and stabbed the dogs to death. This tears me up every time I think about this:frown:

Nation & World | 100 dogs in Canada killed after business slows | Seattle Times Newspaper

:rip::rip::rip::rip::rip::rip::rip::rip::rip:


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## CavePaws (Jan 25, 2011)

Gslover if you happen to come across the article again you should post the link. That kind of behavior I wouldn't doubt is practiced at all there are some sick people in this world. the more people who know this kind of stuff the more likely something will be done about it.


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## GermanSheperdlover (Nov 15, 2009)

This is another awful one.. Tears me up.


:rip::rip::rip::rip::rip::rip::rip::rip:


Nation & World | Kyrgyzstan aims to shoot 10,000 stray dogs in 2011 | Seattle Times Newspaper


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## GermanSheperdlover (Nov 15, 2009)

Good stuff, I think we could use it. But my heart bleeds for the family of the fallen Marine.:rip::usa2:
Being a combat vet this really touch's my heart.

Nation & World | Fallen Marine's parents adopt son's bomb dog | Seattle Times Newspaper


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## CavePaws (Jan 25, 2011)

That is crazy. I'm really horrified by this stuff. People really need to know about these things, I had no idea this was going on. I feel like there are so many animal lovers out there and this is such a huge issue, people would feel like doing something about it.

That's really awesome that you're a combat vet. :] Love your job?


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## stajbs (Jun 5, 2010)

CavePaws the situation in Canada is posted in this forum somewhere. There were like two threads about this situation. It is abominable, and personally I find it upsetting to the max having been a recreational musher. My heart breaks about the situation when I know people, including myself and friends who have helped in circumstances like this.

Then Mr/Ms Practicalfeeder posts about Lance Mackay and Robert Downey. May I point out that in at least two posts he speaks highly of Lance Mackay, Robert Downey(owner of Annamaet) and Martin Buser and the foods they feed and how successful they have been running dogs. Then I see he talks about them being clowns and that he rescues dogs these a**holes kill every year. This poster is seriously confused, messed up, psychotic and mightily annoying. I would love to share practicalfeeders opinions with martin Buser and Lance Mackay. Robert Downey whose virtues he extolled in some posts, I know personally, and will keep my opinions to myself in that regard. 

I so hope practicalfeeder soon goes poof!!!


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## CavePaws (Jan 25, 2011)

I think PF's days are pretty numbered. The posts made by the user are becoming farther and fewer between now. :biggrin:

Are there rescue organizations for these dogs? If I were to adopt a dog in the next few years when I move out to our property, I'd consider adopting one of those dogs and driving up there to pick one up. I'm serious about that, and I wouldn't forget it the next time I decide another dog is ready to come into my life. I like rescuing, I love northern breeds, and I think it would be for a wonderful cause. 

I could imagine how horrible it is to you, being that you have dogs you mush.


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## stajbs (Jun 5, 2010)

Cavepaws,

I doubt the people in the sled dog circles could have saved all the dogs that were "lost" in this circumstance. I do know for a fact that there are organizations and people who would have stepped up and helped in this situation. I have seen it happen in similar circumstances in NY, and Ontario. Fortunately in these cases there were less dogs involved and with the network of people available we managed to save and obtain new homes in at least 3 circumstances I can recall that were on a fairly large scale. We have two friends who still have dogs from dire musher circumstances. 

Personally I feel any musher worth his salt cares more for his dogs than himself. The dogs have to come first because in extreme circumstances your dogs are also your life. Also, your dogs know when you are exhausted, beaten, sick whatever, and they know you still take care of them. They rely on us to do that. 

We no longer do much running and are trying to decide what we will do once we no longer share life here on earth with our two remaining senior sibes. We are devoted to the siberian breed, I expect we will always want to share life with one, so it is likely we will remain at least a 2-3 dog household/family. Our plans now are to consider a malamute from one of 2-3 breeders whose lines we like who have mals with the temperament and health we trust. With our mal I would like to do some carting and maybe some slow lazy bikejoring. Also looking to change jobs in this next year or so and hope to also have time to devote to classes with the local Dog Training Club, and perhaps obtaining a CGC with a mal. Siberians I suspect we would rescue again. Plus we have been sort of keeping one "space" available for fostering. One of these days we will fail at fostering and the third dog will become a permanent member of the family. About two weeks ago we had a retired Denali sled dog here for 3 days. I was involved in the transport to his permanent retirement home. Unfortunately the dog was flown into a nearby airport but there had been a death in the adopting family and we agreed to help out for a few days till the family was finished with the services and other obligations. 

So yes, there are tons of organizations and people willing to help in dire circumstances. I'm not stupid enough to believe they could all have been saved, but what sickens me the most is the people who owned this company had a moral obligation to make their plight known and really get it out to the people who could handle these dogs and get help for them. 

Trust me if you ever want to rescue a sibe, there are tons of them out there. People just do not research the breed and get overwhelmed with managing them and their needs, so they end up at shelters and rescues frequently. This is of course common with many people who do not properly reearch a dog breed before they take the plunge.


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## CavePaws (Jan 25, 2011)

Well, I'm not one to just jump into adopting any animal. I research and would ask a lot of questions, mostly to current owners. One problem I could see is their want to wander. My boyfriends mom bred Siberians for a couple years and she lost one who got out one day, said it killed her inside because she was so close to him. I'd be worried about having one out on a large piece of property, think they would always need to be supervised with forest all around us, we have a hurricane fence, not sure the height but it is over 7 feet tall. From what I've read they're master escape artists though, digging and climbing! Would be an interesting breed to own, we'll see where my dog journey takes me. But a rescued sled dog would definitely be a dog I'd be interested in.

Sounds like you're going to be having lots of fun with your dogs. :] I'd be interested in seeing more pics or hearing about your journeys if you ever have the chance or time to take pics of your dogs at work.


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## stajbs (Jun 5, 2010)

I have no doubt you would research any breed you decided to take into your life. Sibes do have a propensity to be escape artists, to wander and to in general test your willingness to adapt to whatever they throw your way. Many also have a significant prey drive to be cognizant of. So small animals such as rabbits,chickens, and cats could be toast usually unless the sibe is raised with them while a pup. I have only ever known one sibe I trusted 99% off leash, that is probably the one thing that bums me out about the breed, but it comes with the territory. I've had one who could easily clear a 6 foot fence in a single bound, and one who climbed chain link fencing. lol Sort of funny to watch but at the same time scarey and then you have to wonder if the others will see it and decide to try it and succeed at it. So when the dogs were outside in kennels the outside portion of our kennels had a topper on it. They dig, I mean they love to dig so they will excavate their way under fences, and if they get out they will often run. There is nothing worse than trying to catch a loose dog let alone a nimble, fast siberian. Been there done that, and thankfully been lucky. We feel comfortable rescuing siberians and dealing with the unknowns because we know what we are looking for in a sibe. 

With a malamute and a grandson I intend to be quite picky. Perhaps that is over reactive but I have known mals that have had temperments I would deal with but I would not want around children. Although many can be great with children. We've never bought a dog from a breeder but in this case I know enough people with mals I adore. They breed dogs who do well in conformation and also in harness. However I will be focused on temperament and health for sure when the time comes. We were recently offered a 6 month old female mal, she was gorgeous but the time just is not right. We owe it to Blaze and Silva to focus on them and their needs in their remaining years. I'm sure when we are ready we will find what we are looking for.

The Denali dogs occaionally become available for adoption upon retirement. Awesome temperament and usually still young enough to bikejor, and still enjoy being a lounge lizard with you at home. The boy who stayed here got along well with Blaze and Silva and he was so sweet and layed back. He was a siberian cross of some sort. Big sturdy boy. I wanted to keep him. lol Like I said, one day we will fail at foster 101.


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## CavePaws (Jan 25, 2011)

Thanks for your info on the breed. With as much experience as you have with them I'd definitely be sure to ask some questions before considering adoption. I'd be interested in finding an adult rather than a youngster - so I think now, who knows what dog will come into my life and when. :wink: Well, should you have a new pup or a foster in the future, I'll be demanding pics. I really enjoyed the pics of your Siberians working, especially the weight pulling. That looked awesome.


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