# Nice Ash/Cooking process reply from Fromm



## kevin bradley (Aug 9, 2009)

Probably pretty standard fare...but thought some would enjoy reading the response....


Kevin,

Ash is the remaining portion of a food once all the energy has been burned up. It is made up mainly of minerals that the amount of heat used could not burn as energy. Usually ingredients with higher levels of ash are of lower quality. We do not use high ash ingredients which leads to a food with a low ash level usually 6.5% and less. The process we used is meticulously controlled to prevent heat destruction of certain nutrients. We cannot prevent some loss from occurring, but we do fully understand what is lost and thus add more to account for this. All finished products are tested to make sure the levels we provide are exactly what we desire them to be. Hope this helps.

Thanks

-- 
Mr. Dana Watkins
Director of Nutrition and Technical Services
Fromm Family Foods LLC
262-242-2200 ext. 224


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## Jace (Oct 3, 2012)

> Usually ingredients with higher levels of ash are of lower quality.



Hmm not sure I understand this statement, as many food ingredients have higher inherent ash levels, that I would not discount as being "lower" quality. As one example any meal has ash in it, the more meal used in a food, the more ash. Yes, there are reduced ash meals, but it is inherent, and amount of ash would be based on the amount included in the recipe. Ash is the total minerals in the food as well. For me personally, I don't look at "ash" levels per se, but the overall mineral profile, if I require something specific to an issue I am dealing with.


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## Jacksons Mom (Jun 13, 2010)

I just somewhat recently found out about ash and it's really opened up my eyes to a lot of different food and what I used to think was high quality. Thanks for posting!


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## herl (Oct 11, 2012)

As I understand it, ash comes from two sources, either animal sources or mineral product additions. For instance, I believe that montmorillonite clay would increase the ash level in a food. Do lower ash levels always indicate the use of low ash meals, or is it that manufacturers are using less meal in a formula? Is it even possible for us to discern? Jace looks at the overall mineral profile, but I don't really understand what to look for.
Would that be a means to differentiate between meal quality or just less meal used? Another thought, in formulas with dehydrated meats, shouldn't the ash levels be quite low in comparison to kibble with rendered meals?


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## Jace (Oct 3, 2012)

> Is it even possible for us to discern


I don't think it's possible to discern. Because the total mineral content is listed as ash on the Nutrient Profile, you would not know what part is coming from ingredients, and what part is coming from minerals. Meal aside, even meat has minerals...But yes generally I would expect dehydrated meat to contain less ash than meals, as meals contain bones (minerals) Are you trying to determine quality from ash content? If so it's not really a gauge.


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## herl (Oct 11, 2012)

I'm thinking that if there is one primary meat source, and that is in the form of a meal, then ash might be indicative of the quality of that meal. Say you had a food with 32% protein, with the first meat source as chicken meal, and only a few secondary sources way down the ingredient list. Let's say the ash content was 6.0%. Could we assume the ash content likely comes from the chicken meal? If the protein is at 30% or above in such a food then it seems it would have to come from the chicken meal and that would be the source of the ash content. Could I determine then that the meal would probably be low ash meal as 30% protein would indicate a good amount of meal in the absence of other protein sources? If there are more than a few protein sources high up on the list, then I don't think it can be discerned either.


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## monster'sdad (Jul 29, 2012)

Jace said:


> I don't think it's possible to discern. Because the total mineral content is listed as ash on the Nutrient Profile, you would not know what part is coming from ingredients, and what part is coming from minerals. Meal aside, even meat has minerals...But yes generally I would expect dehydrated meat to contain less ash than meals, as meals contain bones (minerals) Are you trying to determine quality from ash content? If so it's not really a gauge.


It is so a gauge but ash has to be viewed relative to protein level. Meats by the way are very high in phosphorous. 

Compare Canidae ALS at 9% ash and 24% protein to any of the Dr. Tim's foods at 26%, 30% and 35% protein and 6% ash or less. It is easy to see that the protein quality in Dr. Tim's is superior.

You pay for ash and your dog's kidneys have to get rid of something not needed and could do harm over the long haul. When you buy a puppy it doesn't come labelled 'perfect kidneys for life".


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## Jace (Oct 3, 2012)

> I'm thinking that if there is one primary meat source, and that is in the form of a meal, then ash might be indicative of the quality of that meal. Say you had a food with 32% protein, with the first meat source as chicken meal, and only a few secondary sources way down the ingredient list. Let's say the ash content was 6.0%. Could we assume the ash content likely comes from the chicken meal? If the protein is at 30% or above in such a food then it seems it would have to come from the chicken meal and that would be the source of the ash content. Could I determine then that the meal would probably be low ash meal as 30% protein would indicate a good amount of meal in the absence of other protein sources? If there are more than a few protein sources high up on the list, then I don't think it can be discerned either.


Yes, I see where you are going. Because the ash level in food also includes added minerals, you would not be able to determine where the ash is coming from. If there were no added minerals in this food, and a small ingredient profile, this might be possible. The other part of the equation is that protein levels on label come from meat/meal as well as other ingredients. As an example lentils contain 27% protein.


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## kevin bradley (Aug 9, 2009)

Ash as a factor in food is staring to become a real factor for discerning owners. I'd like to see it included on labels. We need to push for it.


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## herl (Oct 11, 2012)

There are a few things I would like to see on a label, or at the very least on the websites. So, for any dog food reps that may peruse this forum-

Dear Dog Food Company,

I would like to see the following information listed clearly on your label, or at the least on your website:
% Ash
% Digestibility
% Protein from animal source
Nutrient panel
grams per cup

Additionally, if there are no disclaimers shall I assume your ingredients are sourced from China? Shall I assume your fish ingredient is sent to the massive processing plants in China to be soaked in chemicals and returned to the US? You see, the statement that your fish comes from "coastal waters" doesn't tell me much. You may not lose sleep over where you are sourcing that vitamin premix, but it is of great importance to me.

So Dog Food Company, if I have to call your customer service to dig up simple information such as ash content or grams per cup, I am using my time and yours. If your reps tell me that nobody has ever asked such a question, and that they will have to go to the highest levels of the company to gather this technical data, I will not be impressed. If I am informed that the information I am requesting is "proprietary" and cannot be disclosed, I will not purchase your product. If your reps do not take the call, or return my emails, I will not buy your product. Trust me, it won't crash your website to put up the nutrient panel. Wouldn't it be easier to include such basic information on the bag or at least on the website? 

Thank you Dog Food Company.


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## DaViking (Sep 27, 2011)

At the end of the day excessive ash levels is a *true* filler. It doesn't matter where it comes from but it is closely linked to desired properties of a formula. I don't remember where but I read somewhere that around 2% will cover all the need for minerals. Now, 2% is not going to happen and you have to make compromises to achieve various properties. Those with a special interest will analyze beyond the label and can make fairly educated guesses where the ash is coming from and whether or not they like what they find. From both a customer and a formulators point of view you can make a case for higher (but not excessive) ash levels. For example if you want to make a low carb 90% animal protein fish formula you have to accept somewhat higher ash levels. Same if you are a firm believer in montmorillonite clay you also have to accept more minerals.


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## DaViking (Sep 27, 2011)

herl said:


> There are a few things I would like to see on a label, or at the very least on the websites. So, for any dog food reps that may peruse this forum-
> 
> Dear Dog Food Company,
> 
> ...


And disclosing the amount of carbohydrates too should be the norm. Some weeks ago I email back and forth with a Canadian manufacturer regarding the amount of potato in their formulas. I was told that the information is proprietary out of competitive reasons. Total BS and a complete run around. I told them politely that I could easily calculate the amount of potato since they already disclosed the amount of protein coming from potato in the formula. All I got back was a "Thank you for your interest in our products. Let me know if you have any more questions" I could easily have started negative forum posts regarding this brand based on their antiquated customer service but I choose not to since I believe their foods can play a positive role for certain situations. However, based on the staggering amount of potato I calculated and their poor customer service I will never recommend this food to anyone who is just looking for an everyday maintenance formula.


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## herl (Oct 11, 2012)

I have also received less than satisfactory answers when contacting some manufacturers. Recently I have called one particular brand and asked for the %protein from animal sources. After several days, I was ultimately told that was proprietary information and could not be disclosed. I received two different answers from two different reps there regarding ash content in two of their formulas.

I asked another brand about the sourcing of the fish ingredients and was told they were from "coastal waters" and that was all the information they offered. 

With another brand, the person answering the phone was not able to answer where the vitamin premix was sourced, sourcing of fish meal, or if they were using a low ash chicken meal. She had no knowledge of what "fat product" might be, nor did I, hence the question. I was told that this was a small company that doesn't have the resources to respond like Purina. A vet would return my call. After two follow up phone calls, I was told the premix came from a family owned company "down the road" with no discussion of where they sourced. I was told they would get back with the other information. I have not heard from them. 

One last note to dog food companies: Your label, website and phone responses should all match. If you've made a change, validate it & update the website. That is assuming you publish info in the first place.
Of course, if your %animal protein, %ash, or digestibility is not a point of pride, then by all means conceal it.

I could go on, there have been others, but I'm really not here to play "gotcha" with dog food companies. I'm here to research the best options for my dogs. After having them fall so ill this summer while eating a recalled food, I have learned that my trust in both the manufacturer and my local "pet boutique" was clearly misplaced. I can only say that it will not happen again.


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## kevin bradley (Aug 9, 2009)

we need this stuff more than ever now. Gone are the days when one can look at a label and say..."ok, no by products, no corn, first ingredient is a named meat...MUST be good!" Christ, I think even Ol Roy has a food that looks ok from that respect. Purina has a couple. The companies are onto us. Which, I suppose is a good thing because we've pushed them into some of these things.

However, a good food goes much deeper than a decent ingredient list.


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## monster'sdad (Jul 29, 2012)

kevin bradley said:


> we need this stuff more than ever now. Gone are the days when one can look at a label and say..."ok, no by products, no corn, first ingredient is a named meat...MUST be good!" Christ, I think even Ol Roy has a food that looks ok from that respect. Purina has a couple. The companies are onto us. Which, I suppose is a good thing because we've pushed them into some of these things.
> 
> However, a good food goes much deeper than a decent ingredient list.


Very true but ash level tells me pretty much everything. Low ash generally means better food unless there is pea protein in the food. That is a clever way to hide the bad quality animal protein. Are you listening Fromm and Earthborn?

You can even tell if the protein has been denatured or not, especially with chicken-based foods. High ash foods are almost always processed by machine, which typically means the animal was not passed for human consumption. The machine stripping catches a lot of bone.


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