# Independent raw feeding study



## 3Musketeers (Nov 4, 2010)

All us raw feeders should become vets and start a revolution :heh:


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## DaneMama (Jun 27, 2008)

3Musketeers said:


> All us raw feeders should become vets and start a revolution :heh:


What we need to do is pool our information together. Routine health exams, bloodwork, any case of disease and treatment, vaccine histories, etc, etc. Scientific studies based on individual case histories can have a profound effect and have great correlating results. The trouble is, it can take decades and thousands of hours to put it all together in a complete and concise way. It's been done before for lots of other things...it's certainly possible with raw feeders. People just need to comply, and someone(s) need to take charge. I'm more than happy to help. Who's with me???


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## luvMyBRT (Mar 8, 2010)

I'm in!:biggrin1:

I don't have much to give right now....but our next puppy will be raw fed from day one. So that will be a life time of exams, bloodwork, etc while being raw fed....


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## MissusMac (Jan 6, 2011)

I'd love to help in any way I can!


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## DaneMama (Jun 27, 2008)

Well, we need to actually sit and talk about what needs to be collected from people. Their diet plans, full medical histories on any pets, when they were switched, etc.

We need people who are dedicated to this. Willing to make phone calls and send emails, follow up with people, etc. Something like this takes a lot of time and effort. Generations of dogs.


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## rannmiller (Jun 27, 2008)

Yeah it would take a lot of careful documentation on our parts, unfortunately, but maybe with at least routine bloodwork and a rough record of what we feed on a regular basis would be a start to get people convinced. 

What does it take to get an actual AAFCO study going?


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## CavePaws (Jan 25, 2011)

I think you guys are on the right track and if I wasn't still feeding my dogs pellets I'd try to help out in any way I could with info...

Regular veterinary check ups would need to be a must for a study like this, I'm not saying that because I doubt the benefits of raw feeding, but because tons of people are turned off by it because of what non-informed, ignorant people and 'dog professionals' claim - and quite frankly pull this info about dog nutrition out their butt and the butt of others who are in on the kibble industry.

Unfortunately, vet bills might start racking up on their blood work. It'd be nice to find a vet who has access to proper equipment for blood work, and would be willing to do this at a lower cost if you were coming in regularly...especially in the name of gaining more knowledge on our canine companions dietary needs.


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## MissusMac (Jan 6, 2011)

I have plenty of time at work I could handle emails and help compile info that we get in. I could do phone calls, but not during work hours.


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## DaneMama (Jun 27, 2008)

Who has a home fax machine who is willing to receive vet record faxes and then file them? You'll need file folders for each "client" and an individual tab for each pet. Of course if people are serious about this they would help pitch in money for costs. If I had a home fax machine I would be happy to have this job. Unfortunatly a lot of vet offices have not gone paperless...it would be so much easier to do this all electronically...


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## SpooOwner (Oct 1, 2010)

Perhaps we should design the study before we begin collecting data?


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## DaneMama (Jun 27, 2008)

That's why we are discussing the logistics of it all. I suggested we need someone to collect info...not that we will start gathering it right now. Just need someone to step up to that position is all.


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## SpooOwner (Oct 1, 2010)

danemama08 said:


> That's why we are discussing the logistics of it all. I suggested we need someone to collect info...not that we will start gathering it right now. Just need someone to step up to that position is all.


Perhaps you are starting in a different place than I would, so I'll take a back seat and be along for the ride.


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## DaneMama (Jun 27, 2008)

By all means I am open to all suggestions!!! Last time I did any scientific studies it was for my plant physiology class in college LOL

Nothing to this scheme of things....


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## cprcheetah (Jul 14, 2010)

I'd like to help out in any way I can...don't have a home fax machine, but have one at work that I can get faxes on


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## DaneMama (Jun 27, 2008)

Any chance you have awesome filing skillz too?!


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## cprcheetah (Jul 14, 2010)

danemama08 said:


> Any chance you have awesome filing skillz too?!


Meaning like collecting and making a file with everyones information/results? I could handle that  

Question, are we going to cross post etc? I think having as many raw feeders as possible would help the cause. If needs be I can also design a webpage/site to show the current data/results etc.

ETA: I asked my dad (Veterinarian) what he would like to read about in a Raw Food study, his answer was Safety, i.e. that the dogs aren't getting kidney failure, their coats are shiny etc (so maybe before/after pictures in some cases), and that they haven't been treated for salmonella etc, and overall health/appearance of dog....he said that's from a Veterinary standpoin.


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## jdatwood (Apr 13, 2009)

Someone doesn't need a fax machine... we could have an Efax (or similar company) account the info was faxed to. :wink:


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## DaneMama (Jun 27, 2008)

Oh absolutely! The more cross posting we can all do the better....

Anyone else have suggestions?


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## 3Musketeers (Nov 4, 2010)

Hmm, we could also scan-email-print for those who don't have a fax. Another convenient way to send/collect the info.


I don't really have much to give, except maybe dog-teeth photos, wouldn't be great evidence (considering theres some wear from stress-chewing).


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## DaneMama (Jun 27, 2008)

Well, we also need previous records to compare present body condition to. Especially for cases of allergies or dental disease or kidney disease, etc.


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## DarDog (Sep 6, 2010)

I'm doing my MSc in epidemiology (basically, designing, implementing, analyzing studies, etc.)

This would be a huuuuuuge undertaking. You would need someone to design a questionnaire, gather standard empirical data, like bloodwork, etc, get a statistician to actually analyze results. Funding would always be an issue :S.

I'm guessing your exposure is raw feeding vs. kibble feeding vs. other kind of feeding? You would also have to have an outcome, which isn't clear to me after reading the other posts, so, something like longevity/time to cancer/time to other disease etc. Exposure and outcome would have to be clearly defined.

In order to compare kibble vs raw feeding (with sound methods), you would have to have a sample (preferably random) of each population. The problem with doing it through this forum, is it is not a random sample at all - everyone here is looking to make their dog healthier.

Standardized questionnaires gathering information about everything from each individual would have to be made. Even just making a valid and reliable questionnaire is A LOT of work. You would have to ask everything about diet, family history (which wouldn't be possible in a lot of cases), exerccise, living conditions, general health, etc. All of these variables would be important, because without considering them, the true relationship may be masked, hidden, or inappropriately explained.

A study like this would be very interesting, but in order to be taken seriously, or to be considered scientific evidence, an affiliation with a researcher at a University would probably be needed. It would be such a good PhD topic for someone in veterinary epidemiology!!

If anyone has any specific questions about designing a study, I will try and answer


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## DaneMama (Jun 27, 2008)

Is there anyone you know who would be interested in this undertaking?! I've always said when I win the lottery that I'd fund a study like this....but until that day comes I don't know what we could logically manage.


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## SpooOwner (Oct 1, 2010)

Perhaps we should start by finding out why the people in a position to conduct these studies haven't done so. For example, we can contact holistic and homeopathic vet organizations - which tend to be aligned to our way of thinking - and ask them what research has been conducted, whether there is research currently being conducted, and what they see are the roadblocks to conducting studies on raw, if they agree that it hasn't been sufficiently examined. Just basic background questions to support some of our assumptions.

Other groups to talk to: pre-made raw companies, zoos.


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## DarDog (Sep 6, 2010)

I don't know anyone at the University I'm currently at that would be interested, but, coincidentally, I did my undergrad at a University that is very well known for it's vet school :tongue1:. I was also taught by some of the faculty, so I will do some research tonight into it, and let you know


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## sassymaxmom (Dec 7, 2008)

There was a survey done a little while back. Good idea perhaps you could improve on it?
rawfitpet.com - Survey Results


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## DarDog (Sep 6, 2010)

I PM'ed danemama a couple of resources to check with. (At least, I think I sent it - please let me know if it didn't go through!)

I agree with what SpooOwner said - the best place to start probably would be with holistic veterinarians.

There are definitely reasons beyond funding as to why studies haven't been done. It would be really hard to measure "raw feeding" as no one dog's diet is identical to another's, unlike the similarities between bowls of kibble... of the same brand. And, all of the things I mentioned in my other post as well


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## DarDog (Sep 6, 2010)

> There was a survey done a little while back. Good idea perhaps you could improve on it?
> rawfitpet.com - Survey Results


sassymaxmom, I checked the survey out. It was interesting. It was basically describing health of raw fed dogs. But, no comparisons can be made to other kinds of feeding, as only those who were raw fed were questioned. As well, for comparing, it would be better to get a more objective measure of health (bloodwork, fitness tests, cancer-free years, longevity, etc).

One thing that is common in surveys of this style, including human studies, is observer bias. Basically, you something has changed, or gotten better, even though maybe it hasn't, and record this difference as you "observe" it. I'm not knocking the survey, it's just something to keep in mind when critiquing them. So, again, something objective as a measure of health would work better.


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## eternalstudent (Jul 22, 2010)

Ok so I am a bit late to this party not quite sure how I did not read this but oh well here now.

I think quite simply this is a great idea, an to put it bluntly it was first put in my head by my vet!!!!!! 3 months ago I just did not know where to start. (I got as far as starting a post but never thought it good enough to post).

I don't know how many people on here are active in scientific research but I am and have experience in the publication of scientific literature and also in the researching area. However, I may not have the best filling skills!!!! and i'm quite possibly in the wrong country for this.

I would say that natalie is quite right there is a lot of work, a LOT of work in collating the results and putting it into a format that will have an impact. 

The logistics at the end of the day will probably become the easiest part the hardest will be to get this running and what we need to do. 

There is also the minor point that every test we choose to do is going to cost. ie. bloodworks at my vet comes in at $112 and fecal test about $50. I don't know what else would need to be carried out, but I would imagine that we would need x-rays and bone density scans as the calcium content is one of the bones of contention in the feeding circles.

But don't let me put a negative slant to this. as we have a whole host of new puppies recently on this forum that have been either raw fed from birth (love those doxies) or from 8 - 10 weeks which would provide use with a great baseline even for a proof of concept type study.

I will have a look through the literature (that which I have access too) and see what the general feel is.


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## DarDog (Sep 6, 2010)

> I will have a look through the literature (that which I have access too) and see what the general feel is.


I was checking this out last night, and I couldn't find anything. The only scientific studies I found on raw feeding dogs were regarding shedding bacteria and public health concerns regarding the shedded bacteria.


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## 3Musketeers (Nov 4, 2010)

DarDog said:


> I was checking this out last night, and I couldn't find anything. The only scientific studies I found on raw feeding dogs were regarding shedding bacteria and public health concerns regarding the shedded bacteria.


Probably published by kibble companies =/. There are so many false negatives about raw.


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