# Tape Worms



## Chocx2 (Nov 16, 2009)

So, I believe one of my pets has some tape worms, I am treating with raw ground pumpkin seeds for 14 days. Has anyone treated like this before and if you have what should I expect ?


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## monster'sdad (Jul 29, 2012)

Expect the tape worm to live, if in fact that is what your dog has. Did you find a section of it on its anus or in the stool?

Luckily they don't shed eggs in the host and tapes generally aren't dangerous to a healthy adult.

*Please worm with something containing Praziquantel.*

TradeWinds is FDA approved and an OTC product.


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## whiteleo (Sep 7, 2008)

Here is some help *Tapeworms*

Natural De-wormers


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## monster'sdad (Jul 29, 2012)

whiteleo said:


> Here is some help *Tapeworms*
> 
> Natural De-wormers



Luckily we live in a country where when a dog gets something like a tapeworm, there is a medically safe and proven way to get rid of it. Most of these if not all of these tooth fairy science approaches to worms have been studied by parasitologists and they simply do not work. 

Keep in mind just because something is natural doesn't mean it is safe. I won't bore you with examples.

If these things actually worked, they would be completely mainstream, but guess what, they are not.

There is no reason to mess with worms, if the dog has a tape get rid of it in a proven way.


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## DaneMama (Jun 27, 2008)

Chocx2- finish the regimen and test a stool sample to a lab- don't do a fecal float test at your vet.



monster'sdad said:


> Expect the tape worm to live, if in fact that is what your dog has. Did you find a section of it on its anus or in the stool?
> 
> Luckily they don't shed eggs in the host and tapes generally aren't dangerous to a healthy adult.
> 
> ...


Considering the OP is already trying a holistic method to treat infection...don't waste your energy spouting information that is easily accessible on the Internet here. I am pretty sure the OP knows how to use google if they wanted to know the mainstream, western medicine approach.


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## meggels (May 30, 2010)

Opening this thread, as I think it would be interesting for people that choose to practice a more holistic approach, to be able to discuss how to naturally treat worms.

So let's try to keep it on topic.


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## monster'sdad (Jul 29, 2012)

meggels said:


> Opening this thread, as I think it would be interesting for people that choose to practice a more holistic approach, to be able to discuss how to naturally treat worms.
> 
> So let's try to keep it on topic.


This is a binary issue, either they work or don't. 

And they don't. If they did, you wouldn't need to even ask about them, everyone would know and everyone would use them, but they don't.

And just to assume because it is natural it is safe, is foolish. Years ago people used tobacco leaves to worm because nicotine does in fact work, but completely not safe despite being completely natural.


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## meggels (May 30, 2010)

monster'sdad said:


> This is a binary issue, either they work or don't.
> 
> And they don't. If they did, you wouldn't need to even ask about them, everyone would know and everyone would use them, but they don't.
> 
> And just to assume because it is natural it is safe, is foolish. Years ago people used tobacco leaves to worm because nicotine does in fact work, but completely not safe despite being completely natural.


Last warning. If you do not agree with it or do not choose to treat this way, simply don't post.


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## monster'sdad (Jul 29, 2012)

meggels said:


> Last warning. If you do not agree with it or do not choose to treat this way, simply don't post.


Fair enough, but if some dog dies as a result of internal parasites because of threads like these, you all take responsibility. Okay?

Tapeworms are generally not dangerous but others like hooks and whips are, and people will just assume these so-called alternative remedies work for all. Tapes still have to be taken care of medically even if they are rarely life threatening.


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## Tobi (Mar 18, 2011)

monster'sdad said:


> Fair enough, but if some dog dies as a result of internal parasites because of threads like these, you all take responsibility. Okay?
> 
> Tapeworms are generally not dangerous but others like hooks and whips are, and people will just assume these so-called alternative remedies work for all. Tapes still have to be taken care of medically even if they are rarely life threatening.


This forum is not a replacement for veterinary care, and I'm sure the op understands that, and people try things at thier own risk, and the risk of thier pets for the betterment of thier pet, if her pet had a reaction to the Rx hat you're recommending are you going to take responsibility?
You blindly trust an OTC drug because it s approved by the FDA, which is corrupt beyond understanding, and many things that are FDA approved kill every single day. Sure, millions have been spent to slap a fancy FDA approved label on it, that makes my heart flutter!

Having said that, I would more than happily use gfse or pumpkin seeds on myself, or my dog rather than getting an "OTC" item... I've had giardiasis before, it wasn't pleasant, and it took two rounds of prescriptions to rid them, those made me feel terrible and lethargic, of I ever got it again I'd be going to Liz's page that Robin posted.


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## Herzo (Feb 5, 2011)

Wow I am on a roll this morning....oh my......

Sorry meggels for not staying on topic but I have a really bad need to say this 

md that is so silly, to say that those off us who would try a natural approach, that we will all agree to be responsible. Will you be responsible if someone takes your advice and does not spay or neuter there dog, will you be responsible for all those pups, those little mistakes that happen because of those ones that are not responsible. About the Sweet Pea's of this world that because I didn't spay her got mammary cancer. 

Now see how dumb that sounds. And I am not saying I don't agree with you, having read on different sights about this topic I indeed am changing my mind about this and really a couple of years ago I would never have said that.

But I do think it is dangerous because there is going to be allot of people mostly males that will see this and say see I will not neuter my dog and have oops litters.

Now let the op try the pumpkin seeds and see if it works and if it doesn't then she can give medicine...............Good Lord.......... and look who talks all the time about an agenda.....I do think thee protests to much.


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## monster'sdad (Jul 29, 2012)

Herzo said:


> Wow I am on a roll this morning....oh my......
> 
> Sorry meggels for not staying on topic but I have a really bad need to say this
> 
> ...


He or she may never know if it works or doesn't work, unless there is a big issue. 

Tapes don't come out when they die, when they are killed they are digested unlike other parasites. And they don't come out alive either like others. You need to have certainty that the worm is dead with a proven medication.

As for the comment about wormers being FDA approved and OTC, that is the silliest thing I have ever heard. The products are extremely safe. Experienced dog people even use the horse, cow and goat products everyday of the week. The products sold for dogs and cats are extremely safe and effective. Praziquantel is used in pups as young as three weeks..

Why on god's earth would someone risk the health of their own pet for their own ego, especially when everyone knows these products do not work and there is real risk.


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## MollyWoppy (Mar 19, 2010)

Well, I for one am interested to see how it works. I know the OP has a close friend who is a vet, so she has easy access to all the western medicine and tests she wants, however she has chosen to treat using a holistic method and I applaud her for that. 
These are sporting dogs and are beyond well cared for, there is absolutely no way she would ever put their health at risk. She has had great success with natural medicine before and so has made an educated decision to try this method. I'm not sure how ego comes in to it at all, it's simply a case of not wanting to force poisons on to her dogs unless its the absolute last resort.


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## monster'sdad (Jul 29, 2012)

MollyWoppy said:


> Well, I for one am interested to see how it works. I know the OP has a close friend who is a vet, so she has easy access to all the western medicine and tests she wants, however she has chosen to treat using a holistic method and I applaud her for that.
> These are sporting dogs and are beyond well cared for, there is absolutely no way she would ever put their health at risk. She has had great success with natural medicine before and so has made an educated decision to try this method. I'm not sure how ego comes in to it at all, it's simply a case of not wanting to force poisons on to her dogs unless its the absolute last resort.


How does one know if a tapeworm has been taken care of?

Here is a quote from my friend at U of Penn Vet School, a well known professor. I just asked what he would say to someone that wanted to worm a dog with a tape with pumpkins seeds? He said:

*"I’d ask if they also bless the tap water and use it for vaccines"*


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## brindle (Mar 14, 2013)

monster'sdad said:


> How does one know if a tapeworm has been taken care of?
> 
> Here is a quote from my friend at U of Penn Vet School, a well known professor. I just asked what he would say to someone that wanted to worm a dog with a tape with pumpkins seeds? He said:
> 
> *"I’d ask if they also bless the tap water and use it for vaccines"*


I had a foster puppy come in with a severe case of round worm. She was a tiny little cocker spaniel/poodle with a deformed/dislocated front leg and she weighed maybe a pound at 8 weeks. 
The vet I took her to said that she needed to gain weight before I de-wormed her but she was starving herself (the infection was killing her). I was force feeding her for a couple of days but she stopped walking and had this dead look in her eyes. I knew if I didn't do something she would die that day. So I de-wormed her with the "FDA approved poison". If I had treated her naturally it would have taken too long and she would not have survived. 
After I de-wormed her, she was running around (within 2 hours), the parasites were voiding without her even pooping (to be descriptive they just slithered out of her anus), she started eating/drinking on her own. 
Without that "FDA approved poison" she would have died. So thanks but I agree with monstersdad on this one. I wouldn't mess around with parasites. 
If you wish, try pumpkin seeds. It is a risk just the same (or more) then the medication you would get from a vet.


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## Liz (Sep 27, 2010)

"I’d ask if they also bless the tap water and use it for vaccines"

Yes, I would rather use blessed tap water for a vaccine than the garbage they desire to inject into my dogs and kids. But that is a whole other topic.


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## Tobi (Mar 18, 2011)

monster'sdad said:


> He or she may never know if it works or doesn't work, unless there is a big issue.
> 
> Tapes don't come out when they die, when they are killed they are digested unlike other parasites. And they don't come out alive either like others. You need to have certainty that the worm is dead with a proven medication.
> 
> ...


Or pets, our livestock, and our own bodies are so riddled with problems that are just showing over the course of the last 100 years mostly in part from those so called "safe" drugs... But hey, if its the silliest thing you've ever heard it must be true....op2:
Aspirin is approved by the FDA but yet in still aspirin kills some 25,000 people per year. So the fact is, aspirin is approved, but it's not safe. Prozac is approved, but it isn't safe. Deprivin is approved, but it isn't safe. Coumadin is approved but it isn't safe.

No drug nourishes your body, but what drugs do in fact do is pollute the body and harm the body.

Is it really wise to trust an agency that actually promoted smoking until the 1970s when we know that cigarettes and cigarette smoke kills and by the hundreds of thousands of people every year?

The FDA does not automatically serve the interests of the American people (or thier pets). The interests of the pharmaceutical industry are frequently considered, which isn't surprising considering the number of people who work at the FDA also have career histories working for pharmaceutical companies.


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## brindle (Mar 14, 2013)

Liz said:


> "I’d ask if they also bless the tap water and use it for vaccines"
> 
> Yes, I would rather use blessed tap water for a vaccine than the garbage they desire to inject into my dogs and kids. But that is a whole other topic.


But it is because of those "garbage vaccines" that we have lower rates of (lethal) illness in kids AND dogs in the past 30-40 years. Sure they have their downsides but I would rather they are safe from lethal illnesses and possibly have some slight issues then they die "healthy"... 
This coming from someone who's aunt died of diphtheria in the 70's at 15 years old... guess what, she wasn't immunized. Thanks though *rolls eyes.


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## brindle (Mar 14, 2013)

Tobi said:


> Or pets, our livestock, and our own bodies are so riddled with problems that are just showing over the course of the last 100 years mostly in part from those so called "safe" drugs... But hey, if its the silliest thing you've ever heard it must be true....op2:
> Aspirin is approved by the FDA but yet in still aspirin kills some 25,000 people per year. So the fact is, aspirin is approved, but it's not safe. Prozac is approved, but it isn't safe. Deprivin is approved, but it isn't safe. Coumadin is approved but it isn't safe.
> 
> No drug nourishes your body, but what drugs do in fact do is pollute the body and harm the body.
> ...


Bath tubs also kill people. I suppose we should take the holistic route and bathe in the nearest lake lol
It's hilarious that we are following the holistic fads more and more within the last 20 years when in the last 100 years our lifespans have actually increased due to modern medicine.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/a...-secretly-fed-medical-marijuana-father.html-- drugs are bad mmmmmk.


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## Tobi (Mar 18, 2011)

brindle said:


> But it is because of those "garbage vaccines" that we have lower rates of (lethal) illness in kids AND dogs in the past 30-40 years. Sure they have their downsides but I would rather they are safe from lethal illnesses and possibly have some slight issues then they die "healthy"...
> This coming from someone who's aunt died of diphtheria in the 70's at 15 years old... guess what, she wasn't immunized. Thanks though *rolls eyes.


We also have more cases than EVER in history of childhood diseases, like diabetes, cancer, chronic pneumonia, leukemia, asthma, obesity, autism... But hey, go get your flu shot and think you will be protected.:thumb:


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## Tobi (Mar 18, 2011)

brindle said:


> Bath tubs also kill people. I suppose we should take the holistic route and bathe in the nearest lake lol
> It's hilarious that we are following the holistic fads more and more within the last 20 years when in the last 100 years our lifespans have actually increased due to modern medicine.


So would it have been a fad 500 years ago?


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## brindle (Mar 14, 2013)

Tobi said:


> We also have more cases than EVER in history of childhood diseases, like diabetes, cancer, chronic pneumonia, leukemia, asthma, obesity, autism... But hey, go get your flu shot and think you will be protected.:thumb:


There are shots that I take that I find are a necessity, and there are shots that I avoid like the plague (flu shot). 
We have more cancer, let us delve: we are getting older, there is more pollution, we smoke more pollutants in our cigarettes etc. 
Diabetes-- not sure what the hell that has to so with vaccines
Obesity-- " "
Chronic pneumonia- " "
Leaukemia- please send the link on the connection
Asthma-- same thing
Autism- there is no known cause for autism. 
You are not making any sense. Where are the links between obesity and vaccines?


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## brindle (Mar 14, 2013)

Tobi said:


> So would it have been a fad 500 years ago?


My grandpa has been doing EVERYTHING holistically his entire life. He is 85. He has heart failure, kidney failure, lung disease, COPD, high blood pressure, water retention due to kidney issues etc. 
Never been vaccinated in his life. Hmm. Maybe genetics play a bigger part then we assume.
I think perhaps you need a tooth removed like they did 500 years ago. Or perhaps an amputation... yes I'm sure THAT would be fun. 
We aren't 500 years ago (thank god) so what is your point. People just seem to need something to complain about.


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## Liz (Sep 27, 2010)

Brindle - first of all let's not keep diverting this thread that is about tape worm. Sorry OP. I merely answered MD statement. I never told you what to do so you acerbic response is a little over the top. You can vaccinate for absolutely everything you choose to, I am happy you have the choice. I can also choose not to.

Bathing in a stream can be very pleasant in the right weather but I will stick to a hot shower in the winter.


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## brindle (Mar 14, 2013)

Liz said:


> Brindle - first of all let's not keep diverting this thread that is about tape worm. Sorry OP. I merely answered MD statement. I never told you what to do so you acerbic response is a little over the top. You can vaccinate for absolutely everything you choose to, I am happy you have the choice. I can also choose not to.
> 
> Bathing in a stream can be very pleasant in the right weather but I will stick to a hot shower in the winter.


I guess I just don't see the point of de-worming holistically unless there were no other options. There are plenty of safe drugs that do NO HARM that kill worms. 
As for vaccinating- I am very firm about what I believe and I have every reason to. You do things holistically because nothing bad has happened- yet. When it does (and it most likely will) you will depend on modern medicine to make things right. This is what ALL people do in times of serious need. They shun the modern medical community, then in times of desperation, plead for the assistance of the ones they shunned... mind boggling. 
That being said- I don't vaccinate every year. I have done my dogs puppy vaccines and will do no more. I will do rabies every 3 years as I live on a small town surrounded by wildlife and I'm not willing to take a chance with my children.
Why do you breed animals that are so sensitive to medicines/vaccines and standard kibbles? That doesn't seem logical or right.


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## monster'sdad (Jul 29, 2012)

Everyone cares very deeply about their pets and if a dog has a hot spot, sure, rub some type of hyped-up oil on it, no harm, no fowl.

It gets very dicey when well intentioned people that don't know a thing about a topic act like scientists, and think parroting things on the internet is ok.

Natural wormers have been studied and they don't work. I am sure everyone has a friend who has a friend that used something like pumpkin seeds, but they just don't work, and even if they did it means there is a toxin in them, right? A toxin, just like conventional wormers. So what makes that toxin any better than praziquantel or ivermectin??? One thing for sure, people know what the limits of praziquantel and invermectin are. Think about that next time you have an issue with your pet.

By the way, ivermectin was discovered as a natural fermentation of mold.

I like when people crap on modern medicine. I guess it would be better to die at age 25, or have a foot amputated because of a blister, or have a country riddled with small pox.


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## brindle (Mar 14, 2013)

monster'sdad said:


> Everyone cares very deeply about their pets and if a dog has a hot spot, sure, rub some type of hyped-up oil on it, no harm, no fowl.
> 
> It gets very dicey when well intentioned people that don't know a thing about a topic act like scientists, and think parroting things on the internet is ok.
> 
> Natural wormers have been studied and they don't work. I am sure everyone has a friend who has a friend that used something like pumpkin seeds, but they just don't work, and even if they did it means there is a toxin in them, right? A toxin, just like conventional wormers. So what makes that toxin any better than praziquantel or ivermectin??? One thing for sure, people know what the limits of praziquantel and invermectin are. Think about that next time you have an issue with your pet.


So true. I don't depend on the vet for EVERYTHING. When it comes to de-worming... an obvious choice. 
I had a friend give her dog St Johns Wort. It almost died... (I honestly don't remember why she was giving the dog this potent herb).


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## Tobi (Mar 18, 2011)

brindle said:


> There are shots that I take that I find are a necessity, and there are shots that I avoid like the plague (flu shot).
> We have more cancer, let us delve: we are getting older, there is more pollution, we smoke more pollutants in our cigarettes etc.
> Diabetes-- not sure what the hell that has to so with vaccines
> Obesity-- " "
> ...


Well we are getting older doesn't excuse doesn't work for the children that are getting cancer does it?
If you want I can link google for you if yo would like to read some case studies on these diseases in relation to immunizations... Empower yourself we don't have to do the legwork because you're too lazy to read it and find them yourself. 
http://www.know-vaccines.org/PDF/VaccineInducedJuvenileDiabetes.pdf
Here is one paper that is pretty straightforward about the diabetes bit which you seemed to not comprehend... 

It absolutely amazes me how so e people just blindly let them inject a serum of unknown origin into them, do you ever read the ingredient lists of what they inject you with? Or just like hey doc says its good, lets get em all... Why would you avoid such a harmless vaccine such as the flu shot? Millions get It every year... It's safe though... Or you could be like my grandfather who rolled his cards right and came down with gullian barre syndrome shortly after getting his flu shot... They know there is a slight risk, but hey... It's not a big deal unless you roll the right dice ainkiller:

This is getting a bit off topic anyways, maybe you should start a thread for it if you want to argue.:biggrin:


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## meggels (May 30, 2010)

monster'sdad said:


> Everyone cares very deeply about their pets and if a dog has a hot spot, sure, rub some type of hyped-up oil on it, no harm, no fowl.
> 
> It gets very dicey when well intentioned people that don't know a thing about a topic act like scientists, and think parroting things on the internet is ok.
> 
> ...


I think there's a place for modern and holistic medicine, but that's just me. I use my judgement and decide which path to take with my dogs, and weigh the pro's and con's.

Murphy has allergy and skin issues, so I do not use flea/tick preventive on him, but a natural spray instead. I decided that for the little time he spends outdoors, it was not worth using the chemical on him. I DO use Advantix on Abbie though, because I decided that the pro's outweigh the risks...she has never shown sensitivity to anything, and she spends a lot more time outside and in the woods.

And you bring up "hyped up oil"....surely you don't mean emu oil? 

This is the result of using emu oil spray on Murphy's paws for two weeks (twice daily, along with zyrtec twice daily).


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## whiteleo (Sep 7, 2008)

Brindle it is just a matter of time before you can't control yourself, which has happened soooooo many times under your alias's and the others after skadoosh


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## brindle (Mar 14, 2013)

Tobi said:


> Well we are getting older doesn't excuse doesn't work for the children that are getting cancer does it?
> If you want I can link google for you if yo would like to read some case studies on these diseases in relation to immunizations... Empower yourself we don't have to do the legwork because you're too lazy to read it and find them yourself.
> http://www.know-vaccines.org/PDF/VaccineInducedJuvenileDiabetes.pdf
> Here is one paper that is pretty straightforward about the diabetes bit which you seemed to not comprehend...
> ...


The last time I had any vaccine I was 13. I also said I don't trust flu shots, I guess you didn't read. 
Yes I will roll the dice when it comes to diphtheria, polio, and other illnesses that can (and HAVE) killed or crippled. 
Do I like it, no. Do I prefer illness over death, every time. It is obvious you don't have children :bored:
Ok so you found one connection between diabetes and vaccines. What about obesity? 
How did you like my weed story? Or were you too lazy to read it. Obvious benefits to an illegal drug. Scary right? How such a dangerous, frightening, addictive drug can actually put cancer into remission.... holy ****.


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## brindle (Mar 14, 2013)

whiteleo said:


> Brindle it is just a matter of time before you can't control yourself, which has happened soooooo many times under your alias's and the others after skadoosh


I choose to ignore you. In the time that I have been here you have offered absolutely ZERO insight or intelligence. Good luck with that and I wish you well.


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## brindle (Mar 14, 2013)

meggels said:


> I think there's a place for modern and holistic medicine, but that's just me. I use my judgement and decide which path to take with my dogs, and weigh the pro's and con's.
> 
> Murphy has allergy and skin issues, so I do not use flea/tick preventive on him, but a natural spray instead. I decided that for the little time he spends outdoors, it was not worth using the chemical on him. I DO use Advantix on Abbie though, because I decided that the pro's outweigh the risks...she has never shown sensitivity to anything, and she spends a lot more time outside and in the woods.
> 
> ...


My husband has severe eczema and the emu oil has done nothing so far. We are continuing it however (only used it for 2 weeks) and hoping that we will not have to revert back to topical steroids.


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## Tobi (Mar 18, 2011)

op2:op2:op2:


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## brindle (Mar 14, 2013)

Tobi said:


> op2:op2:op2:


Nothing to say about what I posted then? There is also a French study done on pot stating that people who smoke it are 33% less likely to be obese. They haven't figured out the precise connection but there is a study if you would like me to find it. 
Live what you preach then. Move to an old hand made cabin. Bathe in the stream. Raise your own critters/crops/veggies/fruits. Don't use a vehicle. Don't use anything at all unnatural. 
You are picking and choosing your "holistic" life and you make "holistic" choices based on what you heard. Where is the science behind that? I'm confused. 
I think most just do it to say that they do it lol


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## Tobi (Mar 18, 2011)

brindle said:


> Nothing to say about what I posted then? There is also a French study done on pot stating that people who smoke it are 33% less likely to be obese. They haven't figured out the precise connection but there is a study if you would like me to find it.
> Live what you preach then. Move to an old hand made cabin. Bathe in the stream. Raise your own critters/crops/veggies/fruits. Don't use a vehicle. Don't use anything at all unnatural.
> You are picking and choosing your "holistic" life and you make "holistic" choices based on what you heard. Where is the science behind that? I'm confused.
> I think most just do it to say that they do it lol


If I was a mod I would just make you your own arguing thread and we could split hairs all day, but I choose not to argue with you and further derail this thread, grow up kiddo.:bored:


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## brindle (Mar 14, 2013)

Tobi said:


> If I was a mod I would just make you your own arguing thread and we could split hairs all day, but I choose not to argue with you and further derail this thread, grow up kiddo.:bored:


You are correct. I'm way off topic. 
I get fairly passionate when it comes to people making decisions based on what they heard. "Well I heard de-wormer can kill your dog" -- it can but it is pretty rare. "I heard that vaccinating will lead to serious complications later in life"-- it may cause some slight issues but better then death I always say. If a dog has a SERIOUS DEADLY reaction to a vaccine. Well.... Darwin's law. 
I actually had someone close to me lose their daughter due to not being vaccinated. To diphtheria. She died. At 15. 
Have any of you ever experienced anything like that or had someone close to you experience it? If not then you don't understand the passion behind my words. 
Back to de-wormer. Use what you want but expect minimal-no results. If you have a vet I would definitely consult him/her and make a decision from there.


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## brindle (Mar 14, 2013)

BeagleCountry said:


> Never is a long, long time. Answer the question.


My name is brindle


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## DaViking (Sep 27, 2011)

Congrats to all the winners in this thread.


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## BeagleCountry (Jan 20, 2012)

brindle said:


> My name is brindle


Your exit as 46 and 2 was quite memorable. It took Corgipaws 45 min. to an hour to clean up the pile you left behind. Accept responsibility.

Chox2, I'm sorry your sincere question went into the dumpster.


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## Liz (Sep 27, 2010)

Brindle - you were very upset about assumptions being made on the crating thread but have spouted many assumptions here. I personally have mentors and not just the internet to base my NR practices on and my mentors have over thirty years experience. I also experienced loss in my breeding plan when raising and treating my dogs traditionally so please don't assume I am inexperienced in dealing with issues like parvo and distemper. The last time we have had to deal with these issues was when raising our dogs conventionally and adhering to conventional feeding, vaccinating and other treatments. Since changing to holistic and natural practices we have had no issues. We are ready to treat things like parvo and distemper holistically and I have had pups in my home from others who needed care and have helped other people give their dogs care to get over these diseases. Tobi and I have chosen a more natural or holistic base for how we raise our animals and me my family. I have not seen where anyone has been co-oerced or pushed in any way to try anything holistic. I was approached privately and gave information that I have used with my own animals privately. To have you and Monster's Dad fly off the handle is childish. I am glad and respect that you are content with how you raise, keep and care for your animals and request that maybe you can both show the same respect towards the people that have made choices different than yours. This attacking people because they make a choice is ridiculous and closes doors to communication.


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## monster'sdad (Jul 29, 2012)

Liz said:


> Brindle - you were very upset about assumptions being made on the crating thread but have spouted many assumptions here. I personally have mentors and not just the internet to base my NR practices on and my mentors have over thirty years experience. I also experienced loss in my breeding plan when raising and treating my dogs traditionally so please don't assume I am inexperienced in dealing with issues like parvo and distemper. The last time we have had to deal with these issues was when raising our dogs conventionally and adhering to conventional feeding, vaccinating and other treatments. Since changing to holistic and natural practices we have had no issues. We are ready to treat things like parvo and distemper holistically and I have had pups in my home from others who needed care and have helped other people give their dogs care to get over these diseases. Tobi and I have chosen a more natural or holistic base for how we raise our animals and me my family. I have not seen where anyone has been co-oerced or pushed in any way to try anything holistic. I was approached privately and gave information that I have used with my own animals privately. To have you and Monster's Dad fly off the handle is childish. I am glad and respect that you are content with how you raise, keep and care for your animals and request that maybe you can both show the same respect towards the people that have made choices different than yours. This attacking people because they make a choice is ridiculous and closes doors to communication.


You have every right to choose what you want to do. However, the way your club works is that you ridicule what has been proven to work safely and what is universally accepted in every civilized country in the world. In fact, the same medication we were speaking about, is considered by The World Health Organization, to be one of the most valuable medications in existence, Essential Medicine status.

Be creative if you like, but don't try to convince people on efficacy because all this stuff has been looked at and shown to be ineffective. Feelings and opinions don't matter when it comes to issues like this. Data does.

If you look at these threads you can see whenever scientific evidence goes against the holistic argument all hell breaks loose because for some they are right no matter what the reality may be. Pick any remedy and when someone remotely suggests there is no scientific proof of efficacy or safety the bashing starts. The last one was Black Walnut for heartworms. A known toxin like Black Walnut is safer than Ivermectin...yeah right, show me the data, show me the dose, show me the safety, show me anything you have apart from a website that sells it. No general wormer is safer than Ivermectin, that is why it is used on every mammal in the world.

It comes down to what the term "alternative" really means, simply something that doesn't work or work to acceptable standards.


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## Liz (Sep 27, 2010)

As before stated please show where anyone is being co-erced, pushed, or even encouraged to use any one method. The OP stated what she was doing and people went nuts. Not one person was rude about traditional methods and if that is what someone is comfortable with they should go that route. If there are others who are more comfortable with "alternative" as you call it methods they should also be able to share. If you and those who are content with more traditional methods don't like it ignore those that do. No one is forcing you to do anything or being rude and denigrating to you for your choices. At the same time the OP did not ask for opinions, or your blessing in how she has decided to treat. While political correctness is not my forte respect for the choices of others and kindness is something I do strive to impart. 

What you call "alternative" I refer to as natural. If you don't believe don't try it no one is forcing you to.


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## monster'sdad (Jul 29, 2012)

Liz said:


> As before stated please show where anyone is being co-erced, pushed, or even encouraged to use any one method. The OP stated what she was doing and people went nuts. Not one person was rude about traditional methods and if that is what someone is comfortable with they should go that route. If there are others who are more comfortable with "alternative" as you call it methods they should also be able to share. If you and those who are content with more traditional methods don't like it ignore those that do. No one is forcing you to do anything or being rude and denigrating to you for your choices. At the same time the OP did not ask for opinions, or your blessing in how she has decided to treat. While political correctness is not my forte respect for the choices of others and kindness is something I do strive to impart.
> 
> What you call "alternative" I refer to as natural. If you don't believe don't try it no one is forcing you to.


Ivermectin is natural. Is that acceptable? Are natural toxins better than thoroughly tested medications?

I do respect you, don't get me wrong, but you of all people should be held at least to the standard of proof. If you have a better mouse-trap the world would be better off if you would share a reasonable amount of coventional data so it can be evaluated. Conventional data is not mutually exclusive with altenrative therapies, it just shows whether it works or not.


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## FBarnes (Feb 17, 2013)

monster'sdad said:


> You have every right to choose what you want to do. However, the way your club works is that you ridicule what has been proven to work safely and what is universally accepted in every civilized country in the world. In fact, the same medication we were speaking about, is considered by The World Health Organization, to be one of the most valuable medications in existence.
> 
> Be creative if you like, but don't try to convince people on efficacy because all this stuff has been looked at and shown to be ineffective. Feelings and opinions don't matter when it comes to issues like this. Data does.
> 
> ...


I'm so glad you weren't around to give me that spiel when the vets with all their fancy titles were killing my dog with their expert advice. Oh wait - they gave me that exact same song and dance behind their fancy degrees as they continued to harm my dog. I find it so ironic that you say people who use holistics ridicule pharmaceutics. From my experience it's the other way around. As when reading the majority of your posts.

Many people didn't choose alternative routes because they felt like it. They come to it, as I did, out of desperation. If vet advice worked, I'd still be doing what they told me to do. I am proud of Liz for not only talking the talk but walking the walk - she has ridiculed no one. It's you who are doing all the ridiculing.


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## brindle (Mar 14, 2013)

Liz said:


> Brindle - you were very upset about assumptions being made on the crating thread but have spouted many assumptions here. I personally have mentors and not just the internet to base my NR practices on and my mentors have over thirty years experience. I also experienced loss in my breeding plan when raising and treating my dogs traditionally so please don't assume I am inexperienced in dealing with issues like parvo and distemper. The last time we have had to deal with these issues was when raising our dogs conventionally and adhering to conventional feeding, vaccinating and other treatments. Since changing to holistic and natural practices we have had no issues. We are ready to treat things like parvo and distemper holistically and I have had pups in my home from others who needed care and have helped other people give their dogs care to get over these diseases. Tobi and I have chosen a more natural or holistic base for how we raise our animals and me my family. I have not seen where anyone has been co-oerced or pushed in any way to try anything holistic. I was approached privately and gave information that I have used with my own animals privately. To have you and Monster's Dad fly off the handle is childish. I am glad and respect that you are content with how you raise, keep and care for your animals and request that maybe you can both show the same respect towards the people that have made choices different than yours. This attacking people because they make a choice is ridiculous and closes doors to communication.


You are correct, no one was being coerced into using holistic methods. 
I suppose I was just butting in and giving my opinion on a comment you made concerning vaccinations. That really bothers me because I have negative experiences. My Aunty was one of the most recent deaths via diphtheria (recorded anyway) in Canada. So you see my experience obviously created some bias not unlike you having bad experiences using vaccines. 
What I wonder is- does NR have effects on the genetics of your future litters or others that choose NR? Weaker immune systems? Lower tolerance to vaccines and commercial diets (if theoretically someone went against your will and vaccinated or fed kibble)? Possible higher possibility of allergies and vaccine reactions (again going by the theoretical that someone didn't adhere to your standards)? In a way are you not setting up your dogs, or line of dogs, to fail in a way?
I believe that dogs evolved an ability to eat and live in crap (to put it bluntly). Not to say that it is right but to say that evolution has allowed these animals to thrive in the most abhorrent conditions... aren't you just "softening" your dogs? It doesn't seem like a logical thing to do. 
Dogs are dogs. Not children. Not human. They have different needs. A different existence then we...
I am also baffled why ANYONE would come on HERE for veterinary recommendations. Dogs should be taken to a vet to have a diagnosis. Not "I think" my dog has tape worm. Or "should I" use holistic methods. If one is so stuck on the use of holistic methods (which this group tends to be) then why not go to a holistic VET? Not a bunch of strangers (however well intentioned they may be). 
That is how I feel typed in a less brash/rude way. I was being defensive, admittedly.
Edit: I didn't post on any crating thread..?


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## brindle (Mar 14, 2013)

FBarnes said:


> I'm so glad you weren't around to give me that spiel when the vets with all their fancy titles were killing my dog with their expert advice. Oh wait - they gave me that exact same song and dance behind their fancy degrees as they continued to harm my dog. I find it so ironic that you say people who use holistics ridicule pharmaceutics. From my experience it's the other way around. As when reading the majority of your posts.
> 
> Many people didn't choose alternative routes because they felt like it. They come to it, as I did, out of desperation. If vet advice worked, I'd still be doing what they told me to do. I am proud of Liz for not only talking the talk but walking the walk - she has ridiculed no one. It's you who are doing all the ridiculing.


This exact situation could occur in a reverse situation though! You could go to someone practicing holistic medicine and your dog could (theoretically) be harmed by the herbs used and get very ill. Which would then create a bias against holistic medicine. It is all in the eye of the beholder (or the one who experienced it). 
Everything is a risk. Modern. Holistic. Which is less? For ME I believe more in modern medicine and some in holistic. I haven't seen enough holistic medicine work to believe the "witch doctors". I have seen plenty of modern medicine work wonders. I have also seen modern medicine fail when holistic worked.... just not enough to rely in it FULLY. 
I guess I'm a mix and match.


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## Liz (Sep 27, 2010)

monster'sdad said:


> Ivermectin is natural. Is that acceptable? Are natural toxins better than thoroughly tested medications?
> 
> Not for me it is not acceptable but I have no problem should someone else choose to use this of course with good veterinary instruction. I prefer to use less invasive options whenever possible.
> 
> I do respect you, don't get me wrong, but you of all people should be held at least to the standard of proof. If you have a better mouse-trap the world would be better off if you would share a reasonable amount of coventional data so it can be evaluated. Conventional data is not mutually exclusive with altenrative therapies, it just shows whether it works or not.


I am glad to hear you have some respect for me, thank you. I do not have to be held to any particular standard of proof as I am not selling anything. If someone comes to me for my opinion I state what has worked for me. I also believe that the animal as a whole needs to be taken into consideration. A dog fed and raised on processed foods, vaccinated and traditionally treated is not something I am comfortable dealing with as I believe there is more involved in healing than one protocol. I do not advocate traditionally cared for dogs being unvaccinated either. If you have chosen to go the traditional route I feel you should be under traditional veterinary care. If you choose NR then NR practices and a Homeopathic vet are probably the best way to go. My Naturally Reared pups out of Naturally Reared parents react very differently to natural treatments and preventatives than their traditionally raised counter parts. I am not bashing anyone with that statement it is a choice in care. I stand by my choice and if someone is trying to be more natural in care and raising I am happy to share. If someone is truly interested there is no lack in resources on line or in the library.


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## Tobi (Mar 18, 2011)

monster'sdad said:


> Ivermectin is natural. Is that acceptable? Are natural toxins better than thoroughly tested medications?
> 
> I do respect you, don't get me wrong, but you of all people should be held at least to the standard of proof. If you have a better mouse-trap the world would be better off if you would share a reasonable amount of coventional data so it can be evaluated. Conventional data is not mutually exclusive with altenrative therapies, it just shows whether it works or not.


Correction, it's a chemically derived. It's as natural as cocain is to the coca leaf. Toxins are toxins whether they are natural or chemically manufactured, and altered. It's not just just pulled out of the ground crushed and pressed into a tablet form sa your trying to make it sound.


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## monster'sdad (Jul 29, 2012)

"However, consumers should be aware that none of these alternatives have been studied for safety or efficacy, nor are there any studies indicating that they are effective at protecting against heartworm infection. In addition, some herbal dewormers, such as wormwood and black walnut, are potentially toxic when used at dosage levels needed to control intestinal parasites. *Holistic veterinarian Dr. Susan Wynn, author of Emerging Therapies: Using Herbs and Nutraceuticals in Small Animals (AAHA Press, 1999) and other books, in reference to herbal dewormers for intestinal parasites, said in a chat on doghobbyist.com, “Use a conventional dewormer. They are safer - MUCH - and more effective, than herbal dewormers.”*

I will go with Susan Wynn on this. She is exactly correct and I have heard this from dozens of sources. The quotation is from Mary Strauss's website.


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## monster'sdad (Jul 29, 2012)

Liz said:


> I am glad to hear you have some respect for me, thank you. I do not have to be held to any particular standard of proof as I am not selling anything. If someone comes to me for my opinion I state what has worked for me. I also believe that the animal as a whole needs to be taken into consideration. A dog fed and raised on processed foods, vaccinated and traditionally treated is not something I am comfortable dealing with as I believe there is more involved in healing than one protocol. I do not advocate traditionally cared for dogs being unvaccinated either. If you have chosen to go the traditional route I feel you should be under traditional veterinary care. If you choose NR then NR practices and a Homeopathic vet are probably the best way to go. My Naturally Reared pups out of Naturally Reared parents react very differently to natural treatments and preventatives than their traditionally raised counter parts. I am not bashing anyone with that statement it is a choice in care. I stand by my choice and if someone is trying to be more natural in care and raising I am happy to share. If someone is truly interested there is no lack in resources on line or in the library.


I am very interested in what you said about how they react to natural treatments and preventatives. How do you measure this? How is the data assembled?

I am old fashioned, and I believe that unless it can be recreated and measured it does not exist.


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## FBarnes (Feb 17, 2013)

brindle said:


> This exact situation could occur in a reverse situation though! You could go to someone practicing holistic medicine and your dog could (theoretically) be harmed by the herbs used and get very ill. Which would then create a bias against holistic medicine. It is all in the eye of the beholder (or the one who experienced it).
> Everything is a risk. Modern. Holistic. Which is less? For ME I believe more in modern medicine and some in holistic. I haven't seen enough holistic medicine work to believe the "witch doctors". I have seen plenty of modern medicine work wonders. I have also seen modern medicine fail when holistic worked.... just not enough to rely in it FULLY.
> I guess I'm a mix and match.


Well I trusted the quacks for decades. I think I'll take my chances with the witch doctors for awhile. They seem to be doing alot better for my dogs lately.

I don't go to holistic vets although I might if there was one close. I go to traditional vets. I no longer blindly do what they tell me. I trust them for diagnoses.


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## Liz (Sep 27, 2010)

Again, I am glad you have ways to treat that you are happy with. Guess what? So do I. I have seen pumpkin seeds and other natural methods work with my own pups Monster Dad and I can and will recommend it for the people I know who are raising NR dogs. It is the recommended protocol of the long time breeders I know and trust as mentors. They have been doing this for many decades. I am relatively new.


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## FBarnes (Feb 17, 2013)

monster'sdad said:


> I am very interested in what you said about how they react to natural treatments and preventatives. How do you measure this? How is the data assembled?
> 
> I am old fashioned, and I believe that unless it can be recreated and measured it does not exist.


Then don't do it. Seems pretty simple to me. She doesn't have to prove anything. She's not trying to convert anyone. Just give your dogs their vaccines, and their wormers, according to how you want.


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## Liz (Sep 27, 2010)

brindle said:


> You are correct, no one was being coerced into using holistic methods.
> I suppose I was just butting in and giving my opinion on a comment you made concerning vaccinations. That really bothers me because I have negative experiences. My Aunty was one of the most recent deaths via diphtheria (recorded anyway) in Canada. So you see my experience obviously created some bias not unlike you having bad experiences using vaccines.
> 
> My statement was in answer to Monster's Dad's statement. I was about me and my choices not me telling anyone else what to do.
> ...


How people choose to treat and when they choose to go to the vet is not within my power. I have a vet and if I had the need he knows I come to him for diagnosis, he is also kind enough to look for natural alternatives for me knowing that, that is my preference. He has never once told me I needed to show him proof or scientific data. He even refers people seeking info on feeding raw and NR breeding issues. He sees my dogs and see the condition they are in. I wish everyone had a vet who respected their decisions but not all do so I understand why sometimes they choose to get info on line before deciding on a vet visit where they would be attacked, much like has happened here. 

To have this forum survive there needs to be some adult respect of others opinions. I for one refuse to post on the Kibble forum because I don't feed it and have not kept up on the new stuff. I did post on the Dr Tim giving food thread as I am qualified to say that it was a kind thing to do. JMHO


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## monster'sdad (Jul 29, 2012)

FBarnes said:


> Then don't do it. Seems pretty simple to me. She doesn't have to prove anything. She's not trying to convert anyone. Just give your dogs their vaccines, and their wormers, according to how you want.


I will do what I do, which is extremely limited. FB, just keep in mind what is portrayed here as safe and effective and even widepread and acceptable is not, even by vets that practice some alternative approaches. So beware.

I guess it got under my hide because the issue was taken so lightly, yeah just throw some pumpkin seeds, the dogs will be fine.....


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## Liz (Sep 27, 2010)

monster'sdad said:


> I will do what I do, which is extremely limited. FB, just keep in mind what is portrayed here as safe and effective and even widepread and acceptable is not, even by vets that practice some alternative approaches. So beware.
> 
> I did not post any program to use but did give information in a personal email. If that is shared it is beyond my control but hopefully adults can make their own informed choices and I choose to treat people as intelligent adults. It is up to them to be sure of the course.
> 
> I guess it got under my hide because the issue was taken so lightly, yeah just throw some pumpkin seeds, the dogs will be fine.....


I am very interested in what you said about how they react to natural treatments and preventatives. How do you measure this? How is the data assembled?

For the fourth time at least I am not beholden to provide you data. I have friends who have decided to "try" natural methods without proper direction and research on traditionally reared and cared for dogs and their systems just do not seem geared to make optimal use of the treatments though in their case there was user error. When we have cared for our own or other NR dogs I see them react almost immediately and well to treatment. NR is a lifestyle choice not something you "try" here and there a piece at a time hoping for the best. 

I am old fashioned, and I believe that unless it can be recreated and measured it does not exist.

Again, I don't have to assemble data for your review, I am not trying to sell you anything or even encourage you to try any method I use. What works for us will most probably not work for your dogs. We have set our dogs up in very different lifestyles. I have people I trust and my own dogs to verify what has worked and what hasn't for us and them It is recreated here when I treat my pack and the people I know treat their animals. I see it with my own eyes and therefore it does exist.


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## FBarnes (Feb 17, 2013)

I think the first post on this thread got under your skin, as every alternative treatment post does. Yours was the second post. No one had responded but you to the OP who said she was treating with pumpkin seeds. No one said her dog would be fine prior to your posting. She was certainly not taking it lightly, or she wouldn't have asked the question in the first place.


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## FBarnes (Feb 17, 2013)

I wonder why it is that raw feeders are highly discouraged from suggesting to kibble feeders to feed raw, when on an holistic topic people are allowed to tell everyone to use drugs?


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

many fda approved drugs have as their mechanism of action -- unknown. 

in medicine, certain drugs have had side effects that were unexpectedly successful on a condition for the drug was not originally prescribed. on the flip side, there are drugs being recalled because they did not work. there are herbs touted to work that do not. 

study is needed, no matter what the modality.

plants and herbs have been used in remedies for hundreds of years. 

foxglove paved the way for digitalis.
willow bark evolved into aspirin

there are lists of herbs and plants from which drugs have been created....

if there is a gentle way of dealing with worms, i'd use it before resorting to chemicals. that you believe they are harmless is as i believe they are harmful and we should each have the choice to believe as we each believe. 

herbs and plants can be very powerful. studying naturopathic remedies takes as much research and study as pharmacological remedies.

there are so many books.....that even my friends at Penn are aware of. many of my colleagues used plant and herbal remedies in place of pharmacology or psychotropic drugs.

to dismiss them out of hand puzzles me, as you seem to be educated.


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## meggels (May 30, 2010)

Well, that didn't work. 

Thread closed.


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