# Clashing with breeder on RAW



## Soda (Feb 27, 2012)

I set in a deposit to get a Shiloh Shepherd with a breeder I've been talking with for over a year. I would like to feed our dog PMR and since it says in the contract that the dog has to be fed either grain free acana grassland or raw it seemed perfect.

However, in casual conversation she told me I should get patties from springmeadowsnaturalpetfood.com and grind up meat for regular meals and then for treats to give chicken backs/turkey necks etc. She told me all breeders who feed raw use patties or grind it themselves. 

I asked her why she'd grind it up and she said:

_"U need bone in it and u have to work out the exact amount of meat bone veg etc so it gets correct nutrition daily

Cos u wouldnt be throwing it a chunk of green tripe a chunk of liver a chunk of kidneys a lambs trachea
As if u did u would have no idea of the dogs intake per day on calcium protein etc

They do chew the treats u feed like chicken wings backs turkey necks etc"_

(forgive the poor spelling and stuff, she was on her phone texting when we were chatting)




From what I'm gathering, she feeds 50% kibble, 50% raw so hasn't really looked into PMR and since I don't have nutrition/ analysis stuff I can send her is not agreeing. 

I don't know what to send her to convince her our dog would be getting the proper nutrition on this diet. I'm sorta lost.

If I can't get her to agree with this, then I have to feed patties/ground up meat or high-end kibble. Would patties + backs/necks as treats be fine?



ugh, sorry I feel like this post isn't put together well at all. But I'm frazzled thinking we may not get a pup we've been wanting for four years just because I am unable to convince her. :wacko:





*tl;dr*: Breeder wants me to grind the meat or buy patties from springmeadowsnaturalpetfood.com - I want to feed without grinding/patties. She seems worried about perforated intestines and wants veggies in the diet.


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## Felix (Oct 9, 2012)

I'm just wondering how grinding will ensure you know how much bone is in the feed? I say just smile and nod, say "I'll do it" then feed whatever you want when you get the dog home. After you get it, IT'S YOUR DOG and how can she know what you feed? If she wants to make a visit, just get a bag of pre made raw and say "this is what I feed" then do what you want when she leaves. I know it's 'lying' but I hate nosy breeders/previous owners. I know they're just trying to do what's best for the dogs, but everyone is different and not everyone has the same ideas on feeding their pets.


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## Soda (Feb 27, 2012)

She seems open to it *if* I can give her exact numbers. She will be co-owning him as a stud for her kennel.

"I don't need to research it love cos i'm not doing it lol u just let me know what u plan to feed my stud dog as hes growing up daily give me examples and ill consider it"

Are actual numbers out there that I can send her as an example? It would be easy to sneak around it as she lives nowhere near me (9 hour drive, about), but I don't want to have to do that.


EDIT: I guess I'm ideally looking for an example menu for a large dog. 
her thoughts:
"28lbs a week 50% muscle 40% bone 10% offal plus eggs n steamed veggies, steamed veg is awesome for dogs"


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## GoingPostal (Sep 5, 2011)

Just give her the regular percentage for pmr, meat bone organ 80/10/10. Does the contract say raw or premade raw from this company because if it simply says raw than oh well, you will be feeding raw, just not overpriced commercial stuff. If you can give bone in meals for treats/snacks than she can't be that concerned about bones being an issue. I'd be more concerned that the dogs barely born and she's already planning to use it at stud. What happens in your contract if he isn't breeding quality? Is she expecting you to have him health tested or titled at all?


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## Soda (Feb 27, 2012)

She's a good breeder. I signed up for stud because I wanted to raise a healthy strong dog that could be "used" to help the breed progress towards a healthy future. He is required to keep papers up to date and be a member of the International Shiloh Shepherd Dog Club. He will get x-rays at 1 year old and additional health tests at 2 to make sure that everything is correct and he's breeding 'quality', otherwise he becomes a pure "pet". I know for a fact if he doesn't meet up to breeding standards she would not use him.

She's a very nice lady, really. It was probably ignorant of me to assume that when she said a raw diet was fine that she wasn't talking about BARF. I should have specifically asked before I put down the deposit, but I didn't think it would be so strict. 

Very good point about if it says 'raw' or 'premade raw from blah-de-blah Co'. I know that if I do kibble it lists a specific kind. 
We haven't seen a breeder contract, we sign that when we get the pup. At the moment we only have a deposit paper signed.

The pup isn't born yet - it isn't even in the tummy of mother dog. Mother dog has not been bred yet.


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## naturalfeddogs (Jan 6, 2011)

Send her this link.....preymodelraw.com. Can't post the link from my phone, but send her that and let her read it. Sounds to me like she just isn't real informed on prey model raw. The site was started, and run by a member here, DaneMamma. (Natalie). It's a site that has the answers to all questions she could have on raw.


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## Soda (Feb 27, 2012)

Thank you. I did send her that link, but she said she doesn't have time to research it herself so she just wants straight up numbers, I guess, and she doesn't want links - just wants me to tell her what's up.

Hard to convince somebody that agrees with the BARF diet to let me do PMR haha


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## naturalfeddogs (Jan 6, 2011)

Sounds like she doesn't WANT to learn about it. I would do PMR anyway. She's making excuses.


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## Sprocket (Oct 4, 2011)

Sounds like a breeder that isn't worth your time.


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## Gally (Jan 28, 2012)

I would say I will be feeding 80% meat 10% bone and 10% organs from a wide variety of animals. The dog will get all the vitamins/nutrients they need without including vegetables. If you would like to see where each nutrient comes from here is a link: http://www.kaossiberians.com/old kaos pages/health/Nutrients.pdf

There is another really good getting started guide that spells out the calculations for everything a bit more. You might find something helpful in it: http://puppybutt.weebly.com/uploads/7/6/9/2/7692088/beginners_guide_to_prey_model_raw_rv.5.0.pdf


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## Felix (Oct 9, 2012)

40% bone sounds REALLY high! Maybe puppies need a higher percentage? I didn't realize it was a very future stud dog.


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## Soda (Feb 27, 2012)

I asked her if she just meant to grind meat up for puppies and such and she said she was talking about forever. haha

Those links are very helpful, gally. Thank you  That should really help me answer her specific questions and give direct answers to her questions about bones. Perforations seem to be a big concern for her (not me... I understand what bones not to give haha)

I think after chatting with her constantly for almost two years I was beyond offended how casually she just threw around "well if I don't like what you want to do i just won't give you a puppy lol" like I have no idea what I'm doing. :twitch:

Thank you everybody who took the time to read and reply and such! I really appreciate it.


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## Dude and Bucks Mamma (May 14, 2011)

Soda said:


> "I don't need to research it love cos i'm not doing it lol u just let me know what u plan to feed my stud dog as hes growing up daily give me examples and ill consider it"


That comment would SERIOUSLY make me reconsider using her as a breeder. This is one of her potential future stud dogs yet she doesn't want to research the diet his co-owner wants to feed him?

I know you have been waiting for a puppy from this breeder for a long time but I really think you should find a different breeder. This one doesn't sound like she cares about the puppy owners enough.


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## InkedMarie (Sep 9, 2011)

Forgive me because I'm going to be judgmental. I don't care if she's texting, emailing or handwriting you a letter. *I* couldn't take a breeder serious if they sent me that. Also, there's no way I'd sign a contract that specified what I had to feed. Stuff happens and what if your dog doesn't do well on tht kibble or you can't find it? What if you couldn't feed raw? If your contract just says to feed raw, then feed whatever raw you choose.


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## Sprocket (Oct 4, 2011)

InkedMarie said:


> Forgive me because I'm going to be judgmental*. I don't care if she's texting, emailing or handwriting you a letter. *I* couldn't take a breeder serious if they sent me that*. Also, there's no way I'd sign a contract that specified what I had to feed. Stuff happens and what if your dog doesn't do well on tht kibble or you can't find it? What if you couldn't feed raw? If your contract just says to feed raw, then feed whatever raw you choose.


I was thinking the same thing. I hate short text like that. It just make the writer look illiterate. I make a point to type out everything in full. I wouldn't take the breeder seriously, it looks like a 10 year old wrote it.


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## wolfsnaps88 (Jan 2, 2012)

I concur. What is wrong with people's writing style these days? Drives me insane. A professional person duz not tak lik dis. 

If it just says raw, then feed raw however you want to. But like someone else said, considering this puppy is not even alive yet, how does she know it will be worthy of being a stud dog? Just a lot of red flags here for me. You do what you want as far as if you want to give your money to this person but I don't think I would. 

I could understand if it was a natural rearing breeder who INSISTED that you feed raw over kibble but to prefer a premade over pmr...I mean, WHY? She has the mentality that every bite of food should be uniform instead of balance over time which to me, suggests she doesn't understand raw feeding. 

Good luck with whatever way you decide to go on this one.


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## Soda (Feb 27, 2012)

Well, she and I chat often. Weekly for about a year. Some days hours at a time. So she and I have gotten pretty casual. Which is another reason why it shocked me that she kinda freaked out a bit and said some weird things.

I confronted her about how I was no longer feeling good about co-owning and she apologized and said she didn't mean to make it sound like he would be HER dog. She also explained that while we were chatting about PMR she was loading a truck and was in the middle of moving. She was dealing with 5 kids, 4 dogs and 2 cats so she was trying to respond quick.

I don't think she really heard of any other RAW feeding other than what her breeder-friends were feeding their dogs. I guess last night she read through the beginners guide to PMR I provided. She mailed and said:

_"I looked at your PMR last night and its similar to barf with no veg so if you're confident you can do this i'm ok. I'm on the road 13 hrs today in and out of service."_


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## Liz (Sep 27, 2010)

Soda - as a Naturally Rearing breeder I understand being demanding of those who get one of my pups. If you are co owning and you are feeding in a different manner than she does please be sure your co ownership contract is clear and detailed especially concerning health issues of larger dogs - things like pano, hips, shoulders etc. Make sure responsibility for these issue is spelled out clearly or you will find yourself blamed and what you have been feeding criticized. Teeth/bite issues are another to be very clear on for a potential show dog. 

Liz


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