# No Vaccinations??



## hund

This is a thread that is stemming from the kibble/raw section. Why in the h*** would someone not vaccinate their dogs? It is a risk not only to other dogs but to humans as well. 
I cannot see the logic in it.
Back up your anecdotes with fact please. 
You want fact from me-- 
Infected skunk bites unvaccinated dog, dog contracts rabies, no one knows, dog acts weird, dog bites person, person may or may not get treated not knowing they have rabies, human possible death due to human negligence.


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## whiteleo

I don't vaccinate any longer except with rabies because my dogs are licensed with the county which is required. Right now my girl Cayenne is being treated by a holistic vet for issues with her feet. When she did NAET, she showed a sensitivity to her distemper vaccine which she hasn't had for several years. I also foster for our rescue, and it is required to vaccinate dogs we don't know if they have had their shots or not. I tell all my adopters to do their research before re-vaccinating.
The Truth About _Dog Vaccinations_


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## Sprocket

hund said:


> This is a thread that is stemming from the kibble/raw section. _Why in the h*** would someone not vaccinate their dogs?_ It is a risk not only to other dogs but to humans as well.
> I cannot see the logic in it.


Certain dogs have bad reactions to vaccines. Vaccines do not guarantee immunity, so why overload your dog with chemicals?




hund said:


> Back up your anecdotes with fact please.
> You want fact from me--
> Infected skunk bites unvaccinated dog, dog contracts rabies, no one knows, dog acts weird, dog bites person, person may or may not get treated not knowing they have rabies, human possible death due to human negligence.


Regardless, EVERY DOG, Vaccinated or unvaccinated it at the same risk. Vaccination does not guarantee immunity. Therefore it is always a risk no matter what the dog has had previously. 

Care to speak about the other vaccinations?

FWIW I still plan to vaccinate for Rabies but only because it is required. They will get ONE rabies shot and no more after that. Sprocket recently got a rabies vaccine because it was required to neuter him. He broke out in scabs everywhere. No more for him. The other vaccines are garbage IMO


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## Scarlett_O'

You will find a lot of us(especially in the raw feeding circles) are big on natural ownership and limited/postponed/non vaccinations. Along with not using other chemical. :wink:

I would HIGHLY suggest researching into it further, like you are seeming to start. There is a TON of info out there for the finding...and it will open your eyes to things you NEVER knew!!:thumb:
HOWEVER to get good replies from knowledgeable people you will more then likely need to get rid of the "Why in the h***" attitude.


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## hund

Sprocket said:


> Certain dogs have bad reactions to vaccines. Vaccines do not guarantee immunity, so why overload your dog with chemicals?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Regardless, EVERY DOG, Vaccinated or unvaccinated it at the same risk. Vaccination does not guarantee immunity. Therefore it is always a risk no matter what the dog has had previously.
> 
> Care to speak about the other vaccinations?
> 
> FWIW I still plan to vaccinate for Rabies but only because it is required. They will get ONE rabies shot and no more after that. The other vaccines are garbage IMO


What do you suggest I do? If I go to a vet and ask her to write something up will you the discredit it and state "well she isn't a holistic vet so she's in it for the money". Where do I get my information from? 
No one on this site relys on veterinary medicine so where am I to get the facts from. 
Ya'll dont even take advice from a vet!


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## Sprocket

hund said:


> What do you suggest I do? If I go to a vet and ask her to write something up will you the discredit it and state "well she isn't a holistic vet so she's in it for the money". Where do I get my information from?
> No one on this site relys on veterinary medicine so where am I to get the facts from.
> Ya'll dont even take advice from a vet!


Did you read what Whiteleo posted?


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## Rvent

Rabies is usually required by law in most places, as for all the other vaccines most do not need to be given every year, and there's plenty of research on this topic..... we has human beings do not get vaccinated every year, only as children do we get are vaccines, and there has been much controversy and research into this as well ( we as a society over vaccinate, and over medicate this is why we have so many antibiotic resistant bugs out there.... so rabies aside if you don't get yourself vaccinated every year show me why we should vaccinate our dogs every year.


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## hund

Scarlett_O' said:


> You will find a lot of us(especially in the raw feeding circles) are big on natural ownership and limited/postponed/non vaccinations. Along with not using other chemical. :wink:
> 
> I would HIGHLY suggest researching into it further, like you are seeming to start. There is a TON of info out there for the finding...and it will open your eyes to things you NEVER knew!!:thumb:
> HOWEVER to get good replies from knowledgeable people you will more then likely need to get rid of the "Why in the h***" attitude.


I'm sorry but I will never be against vaccinating pets. A human life is worth much more then any animals and that is what should be considered above all else. 
The risk of zoonotic disease in an animal is there and if giving a shot reduces it even slightly it is something I would recommend.


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## hund

Well. When one of your dogs succumbs to a disease that could have been prevented for 20 dollars then please post that on here as well to educate the others. 
I told you my experience (well, my husbands) and it is what happens to many pets around the world. You choose not to listen then that is your problem [although if it's rabies it can regrettably become an innocent persons problem as well].


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## Sprocket

hund said:


> Well. When one of your dogs succumbs to a disease that could have been prevented for 20 dollars then please post that on here as well to educate the others.
> I told you my experience (well, my husbands) and it is what happens to many pets around the world. You choose not to listen then that is your problem [although if it's rabies it can regrettably become an innocent persons problem as well].


If you have no interest in educating yourself and others, why would you post a thread just to be so hateful?


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## hund

I would take it from two extremist points of view-- 
One point of view- never vaccinate 
Opposing point of view- vaccinate annually
My point of view-- puppy boosters, 1 yr boosters, every 3 years after that. 
I'll not be changing my point of view. 
I don't have the burden of proof here... I see parvo, distemper and rabies all over the place and dog's dying from it. Prove to ME that not vaccinating dogs can have the same effectiveness as vaccinating them.


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## hund

Sprocket said:


> If you have no interest in educating yourself and others, why would you post a thread just to be so hateful?


This isn't hate. It's against extremist views. To not vaccinate..... it makes my head spin!!! It's sad. I just hope that all unvaccinated dogs stay away from my family and my dog.
It is exactly why I avoid dog parks and any place heavily populated with dogs.


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## Sprocket

hund said:


> I would take it from two extremist points of view--
> One point of view- never vaccinate
> Opposing point of view- vaccinate annually
> My point of view-- puppy boosters, 1 yr boosters, every 3 years after that.
> *I'll not be changing my point of view. *
> I don't have the burden of proof here... I see parvo, distemper and rabies all over the place and dog's dying from it. Prove to ME that not vaccinating dogs can have the same effectiveness as vaccinating them.


So I ask again...why did you post this thread if you don't have an open mind? We can't tell you anything because it will just further infuriate you.


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## whiteleo

Hund, you are ever so paranoid. If you were to always take advise from your vet then you must be feeding Hills, do your research and educate yourself instead of condemning others who have done their research.


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## Rvent

hund said:


> I would take it from two extremist points of view--
> One point of view- never vaccinate
> Opposing point of view- vaccinate annually
> My point of view-- puppy boosters, 1 yr boosters, every 3 years after that.
> I'll not be changing my point of view.
> I don't have the burden of proof here... I see parvo, distemper and rabies all over the place and dog's dying from it. Prove to ME that not vaccinating dogs can have the same effectiveness as vaccinating them.


where the hell do you live that you see dogs dying all over the place from those diseases you mentioned, no one is trying to change your mind you can do what ever you want with your dogs, you asked why the hell would someone not vaccinated their dogs....you got the answer to your question its not our problem if you don't like the asnwer or agree with it you don't have too.


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## hund

whiteleo said:


> Hund, you are ever so paranoid. If you were to always take advise from your vet then you must be feeding Hills, do your research and educate yourself instead of condemning others who have done their research.


Thank you for the assumption on my dogs diet. Even IF that were the case, there is nothing wrong with it. 
If you have seen a puppy die of parvo then you will change your mind, if you don't, you have mental issues.


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## hund

Rvent said:


> where the hell do you live that you see dogs dying all over the place from those diseases you mentioned, no one is trying to change your mind you can do what ever you want with your dogs, you asked why the hell would someone not vaccinated their dogs....you got the answer to your question its not our problem if you don't like the asnwer or agree with it you don't have too.


It's not where I live it's how many dogs I deal with in rescue and foster. I got no answer but a bunch of people trying to justify negligence because this person said this and this person said that. It's heresay. Myths. Internet bs. 
Follow it if you like but my hope is that someone who reads this thread will vaccinate their animals.


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## Makovach

I do not vaccinate. My dogs go in for yearly wellness exams. They get titer tested every three years. So far, they have always been good with their levels and the vet says that it is just as high as if he would give the shot and test again in a week. 

Annie's last shot was at 2 yrs old (she had 4 sets of puppy shots and two (1yr&2yr) boosters in this time), she is now 7. 
Nalahs last shot was her second set of Puppy shotst when she was 12 weeks old. She is now 5 years old.
Tucker's last shot was at 5 weeks old. He only had one shot. Now, he is 1.5yrs old. 
None of my dogs need the shot, so why would I vaccinate? Why would I fallow the full protocall to do so many sets of puppy shots when one one shot gave him "immunity". 

I'm sorry, but if you think that your dog wont get parvo simply because you gave it a shot, I think you need to research the topic a little more - and I do not in any way mean that in a snobby snarky way. A little over a year or so ago, there was a major parvo outbreak. Many of our friends and neighbors had dogs dying or at the Er vet with parvo, all had been vaccinated either yearly, bi yearly or every three years. Neither of my girls were affected (or vaccinated in the past 5 years). And we were at these peoples houses and around them unknowing what was wrong. and the neighbor dogs would get in our yard (because they were allowed (by their ignorant owners) to run loose).


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## hund

whiteleo said:


> Hund, you are ever so paranoid. If you were to always take advise from your vet then you must be feeding Hills, do your research and educate yourself instead of condemning others who have done their research.


Hmmm. Wonder who you would go to if your dog had physiological issues. Let me guess-- a witch doctor? Lol


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## hund

Makovach said:


> I do not vaccinate. My dogs go in for yearly wellness exams. They get titer tested every three years. So far, they have always been good with their levels and the vet says that it is just as high as if he would give the shot and test again in a week.
> 
> Annie's last shot was at 2 yrs old (she had 4 sets of puppy shots and two (1yr&2yr) boosters in this time), she is now 7.
> Nalahs last shot was her second set of Puppy shotst when she was 12 weeks old. She is now 5 years old.
> Tucker's last shot was at 5 weeks old. He only had one shot. Now, he is 1.5yrs old.
> None of my dogs need the shot, so why would I vaccinate? Why would I fallow the full protocall to do so many sets of puppy shots when one one shot gave him "immunity".
> 
> I'm sorry, but if you think that your dog wont get parvo simply because you gave it a shot, I think you need to research the topic a little more - and I do not in any way mean that in a snobby snarky way. A little over a year or so ago, there was a major parvo outbreak. Many of our friends and neighbors had dogs dying or at the Er vet with parvo, all had been vaccinated either yearly, bi yearly or every three years. Neither of my girls were affected (or vaccinated in the past 5 years). And we were at these peoples houses and around them unknowing what was wrong. and the neighbor dogs would get in our yard (because they were allowed (by their ignorant owners) to run loose).


Please quote where I stated that getting a vaccine is 100% guarantee.


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## hund

I'm done with this conversation. A bunch of people who did some Internet surfing and now are experts in biology and veterinary medicine are telling other people that vaccinating is the devil. Just like kibble is the devil and chemical intervention is the devil. Heck! VETS are the devil too! I've seen wayyyyy too many animals get sick. I have been there and experienced it, watched it, looked into the puppies eyes while they die painfully. 
I dont care what "research" you thought you did. I don't care how many times you googled. EVERYONE SHOULD VACCINATE THEIR PETS. At no time did I state that it is a 100% prevention. It's better then knowing 100% that my dog has no immunity whatsoever. 
So I'll let you google experts continue all of your research and Im done with this thread as I am just getting more angry by the second at the carelessness displayed here.


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## Ziggersmom

My previous border collie died of an autoimmune disease that the vet herself blamed on vaccines. I spent thousands of dollars over his lifetime vaccinating and in treatment because of what the vaccines did to him and still at the end would've had to spend another couple thousand to get him through the night! My aunt annually vaccinated her chocolate lab and yet he has gotten parvo twice! Why is it that you think vaccines are going to keep everyone safer? And on a side note, my and my other aunt's unvaccinated border collies go out everyday in the same water that the lab got parvo in and yet the
Collies haven't ever had it.


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## whiteleo

hund said:


> Hmmm. Wonder who you would go to if your dog had physiological issues. Let me guess-- a witch doctor? Lol


Boy, who crapped on your parade? Yes, I would go to a holistic vet as most of my girls problems are from too much medicine and antibiotics from her past, I believe you should also do research on Holistic vets too as they have all gone through vet school.


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## hund

Nana52 said:


> This is going to be another one of those very long threads where the OP has already made up their mind and is not remotely interested in what anyone else has to say. To vaccinate or not is a personal decision. If you're comfortable with it, do it. If you're not, don't. That's all I'm going to say. Anything more would be a waste of time and effort and just add fuel to the fire. This person is looking for a fight. I'd love if no one would give them one, but to each their own.


This thread actually began in another thread where it wasn't appropriate so I moved it here.


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## naturalfeddogs

hund said:


> This is a thread that is stemming from the kibble/raw section. Why in the h*** would someone not vaccinate their dogs? It is a risk not only to other dogs but to humans as well.
> I cannot see the logic in it.
> Back up your anecdotes with fact please.
> You want fact from me--
> Infected skunk bites unvaccinated dog, dog contracts rabies, no one knows, dog acts weird, dog bites person, person may or may not get treated not knowing they have rabies, human possible death due to human negligence.


That skunk could infect a vaccinated dog as well. Ask a vet.


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## naturalfeddogs

hund said:


> Please quote where I stated that getting a vaccine is 100% guarantee.


I don't think you had to. It's all in your attitude.


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## whiteleo

All About Vaccine Issues & Vaccinations, Dodds & Schultz 2/10

and

Vaccination Schedules


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## chowder

I don't know any one here who just surf's the internet or consults witch doctors and forms opinions that way on their dogs health. If the original poster is interested, most of us have heavily researched the work of Dr. Ronald Schultz of the University of Wisconsin Vet School, and Dr. Jean Dodds and use and follow their recommendations and guidance as far as vaccine protocol and information. Both have spent years studying the effects of over vaccination on the health of animals and have proven that immunity lasts a lifetime. The following links may be informative. 


Schultz: Dog vaccines may not be necessary (March 14, 2003)
UW-Madison School of Veterinary Medicine
Dr-Dodds-ChangingVaccProtocol


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## newlndnfire

Honestly, I cannot stand people like you, Hund. I cannot. You post something and REFUSE to even acknowledge other peoples opinions. You won't even take into consideration what other people are saying. You drive me UP THE WALL. Why post something if you won't even LOOK at other peoples opinions. Stop being so freaking close minded and actually do some research. Take the chance to learn something. There's are reason that people aren't vaccinating their pets. Were not all bumbling idiots, as you imply we are. Makovich's (sorry if I spelt this wrong!) dogs are a prime example. She hasn't vaccinated her pets and does titers and guess what? THE IMMUNITY IS STILL THERE. Dogs don't need to be vaccinated every year OR every three years. Grow up and realize some people have other opinions and maybe do some research before you bash someone about something. OR DON'T POST ABOUT IT. 

/rage.


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## SaharaNight Boxers

hund said:


> I'm done with this conversation. A bunch of people who did some Internet surfing and now are experts in biology and veterinary medicine are telling other people that vaccinating is the devil. Just like kibble is the devil and chemical intervention is the devil. Heck! VETS are the devil too! I've seen wayyyyy too many animals get sick. I have been there and experienced it, watched it, looked into the puppies eyes while they die painfully.
> I dont care what "research" you thought you did. I don't care how many times you googled. EVERYONE SHOULD VACCINATE THEIR PETS. At no time did I state that it is a 100% prevention. It's better then knowing 100% that my dog has no immunity whatsoever.
> So I'll let you google experts continue all of your research and Im done with this thread as I am just getting more angry by the second at the carelessness displayed here.


All I have to say it wow...just wow...


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## bernadettelevis

hund said:


> What do you suggest I do? If I go to a vet and ask her to write something up will you the discredit it and state "well she isn't a holistic vet so she's in it for the money". Where do I get my information from?
> No one on this site relys on veterinary medicine so where am I to get the facts from.
> Ya'll dont even take advice from a vet!


I'm really trying to stay calm and it's not easy with your attitude.

My Dog had all his puppy shots and my vet wanted to vaccinate yearly. 
However i did some research and talked to my Horse-Vet (no, not a holistic vet and yes she also studied dogs) about vaccinations and she explained to me that vaccinating yearly is not necessary and showed me some studies on different vaccines for different illnesses. Most vaccines have been scientifically proven to last between 5-7 years and she said that they even last longer and i should not vaccinate my dog but rather have him titer tested after 7-10 years. For rabies, she said that this is not an issue in the country that i live in, since rabies doesn't exist anymore here, i will only vaccinate for rabies when we travel to another country since we have to.
And there re vaccinations for some illnesses, where the risks of getting this illness are so low or the vaccinations rather useless.

I'm not totally against vaccinations and i think they do have their place and purpose but what really bothers me is the over-vaccinating that is done by most vets. I mean it is scientifically proven that most vaccines last longer than 1-3 years, so why do most vets still vaccinate every year?

My dog will not be vaccinated again, i don't know yet, if i get a puppy sometime, if that puppy is going to get the vaccinations.

It seems to me that you haven't done any research and don't question anything a vet tells you, and that is sad. Of course i listen to my vet on most things since i didn't study medicine, but i do not listen to him/her on some things and i question everything she/he does or rather i want to know exactly what he does so i can do my research and maybe talk to other vets about it. I want to know what my dog exactly has, why he has it, what that exactly is, what medication he will get, what this medication is used for, what is in the medication....and so on....
When i had my two knee surgeries i did the exact same thing. I wanted him to explain everything in detail to me. What anasthesia i will get (so i could do some research on it) what antibiotics i ill get and what for and so on... Of course i also took the antibiotics after the surgery but i wanted to know what i take and what for....


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## hund

bernadettelevis said:


> I'm really trying to stay calm and it's not easy with your attitude.
> 
> My Dog had all his puppy shots and my vet wanted to vaccinate yearly.
> However i did some research and talked to my Horse-Vet (no, not a holistic vet and yes she also studied dogs) about vaccinations and she explained to me that vaccinating yearly is not necessary and showed me some studies on different vaccines for different illnesses. Most vaccines have been scientifically proven to last between 5-7 years and she said that they even last longer and i should not vaccinate my dog but rather have him titer tested after 7-10 years. For rabies, she said that this is not an issue in the country that i live in, since rabies doesn't exist anymore here, i will only vaccinate for rabies when we travel to another country since we have to.
> And there re vaccinations for some illnesses, where the risks of getting this illness are so low or the vaccinations rather useless.
> 
> I'm not totally against vaccinations and i think they do have their place and purpose but what really bothers me is the over-vaccinating that is done by most vets. I mean it is scientifically proven that most vaccines last longer than 1-3 years, so why do most vets still vaccinate every year?
> 
> My dog will not be vaccinated again, i don't know yet, if i get a puppy sometime, if that puppy is going to get the vaccinations.
> 
> It seems to me that you haven't done any research and don't question anything a vet tells you, and that is sad. Of course i listen to my vet on most things since i didn't study medicine, but i do not listen to him/her on some things and i question everything she/he does or rather i want to know exactly what he does so i can do my research and maybe talk to other vets about it. I want to know what my dog exactly has, why he has it, what that exactly is, what medication he will get, what this medication is used for, what is in the medication....and so on....
> When i had my two knee surgeries i did the exact same thing. I wanted him to explain everything in detail to me. What anasthesia i will get (so i could do some research on it) what antibiotics i ill get and what for and so on... Of course i also took the antibiotics after the surgery but i wanted to know what i take and what for....


I think every 5-7 years is fine as long as you are doing something. I hate it when people do nothing. Even if you just give puppy shots and first rabies shot-- it's SOMETHING.
I trust my vet so yes I take her recommendations seriously. She is not against spacing out vaccinations or less vaccinations. Nor is she objecting to raw feeding. If you can't trust your vet then you should most likely get a new one.


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## hund

newlndnfire said:


> Honestly, I cannot stand people like you, Hund. I cannot. You post something and REFUSE to even acknowledge other peoples opinions. You won't even take into consideration what other people are saying. You drive me UP THE WALL. Why post something if you won't even LOOK at other peoples opinions. Stop being so freaking close minded and actually do some research. Take the chance to learn something. There's are reason that people aren't vaccinating their pets. Were not all bumbling idiots, as you imply we are. Makovich's (sorry if I spelt this wrong!) dogs are a prime example. She hasn't vaccinated her pets and does titers and guess what? THE IMMUNITY IS STILL THERE. Dogs don't need to be vaccinated every year OR every three years. Grow up and realize some people have other opinions and maybe do some research before you bash someone about something. OR DON'T POST ABOUT IT.
> 
> /rage.


The one thing I may have said that needs correction is the blanket statement about everyone being google experts. I realize some (SOME) of you HAVE in fact done real research. 
That being the case (IF you have in fact done proper research) you will realize that puppies NEED to be vaccinated. Unless they live in a plastic bubble their whole lives, that is. 
You see enough deaths from particular diseases and you realize "hey! Maybe I'll vaccinate". Figure it out sooner rather then later. As I said already-- lesser of two evils. Do you want to inject you dog's with an unnatural substance that may save your dog OR do you want a dead dog. I've made my choice.


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## newlndnfire

So puppies need to be vaccinated, right? Well, Liz for example, does not vaccinate her dogs. Are her puppies all dead? NO! They are living, breathing and in fact, EXTREMELY healthy. They are THRIVING. People who's pups have died from a lack of vaccinations probably were not probably taken care of. They were probably living in filthy conditions, not eating good food, ect. So maybe it wasn't the fact that they had no vaccinations but the fact that they living in awful conditions? People who don't vaccinate their pets on this forum are the ones doing it correctly. They introduce the dogs slowly to the outside world and don't just plop them splat in the middle of things. There is the right way to do things and there is the wrong way to do things. EVERYTHING is like this.


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## hund

newlndnfire said:


> So puppies need to be vaccinated, right? Well, Liz for example, does not vaccinate her dogs. Are her puppies all dead? NO! They are living, breathing and in fact, EXTREMELY healthy. They are THRIVING. People who's pups have died from a lack of vaccinations probably were not probably taken care of. They were probably living in filthy conditions, not eating good food, ect. So maybe it wasn't the fact that they had no vaccinations but the fact that they living in awful conditions? People who don't vaccinate their pets on this forum are the ones doing it correctly. They introduce the dogs slowly to the outside world and don't just plop them splat in the middle of things. There is the right way to do things and there is the wrong way to do things. EVERYTHING is like this.


Well when parvo sweeps her kennel then you can ask her how she feels about it. 
A family friend of mine bred Pomeranians. They were not vaccinated either and never kept in filthy or abhorrent conditions. The entire litter died as well as the adults. I do have a personal bias. I'm against stupidity...


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## newlndnfire

Knowing what your doing, is not stupidity. Stupidity is when you do something without knowing anything. Please, tell me, if vaccines prevent parvo then why are there still TONS of dogs getting it, even after they have been vaccinated? Also, if caught early enough, parvo is not hard to fix. I have a personal bias, I'm against people who don't listen to other peoples REASONABLE ideas. Who bash without doing any research (or knowing anything) about the other sides argument.


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## hund

newlndnfire said:


> Knowing what your doing, is not stupidity. Stupidity is when you do something without knowing anything. Please, tell me, if vaccines prevent parvo then why are there still TONS of dogs getting it, even after they have been vaccinated? Also, if caught early enough, parvo is not hard to fix. I have a personal bias, I'm against people who don't listen to other peoples REASONABLE ideas. Who bash without doing any research (or knowing anything) about the other sides argument.


I know what I have seen. I know that I have seen and experienced animals dying. I'll say it again-- THERE IS NO 100% IN ANYTHING AND THAT INCLUDES VACCINATIONS. Although it sure helps reduce the number. 
Who told you that the dog's that have been infected with parvo were vaccinated or not? Another Internet myth to be believed by an entire forum. 
I have done my research, I simply have no way of getting it to you (technologically inept). Call your vet. Ask them if one should never give their pets a vaccine.


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## newlndnfire

Who told me? My family bred Jack Russells a couple years back. One of our puppies contracted parvo. Was he vaccinated? Yes. Not an internet myth that I'm believing. Luckily, he survived. I have also done my research, lots of it. Would I do something without researching it? No! Never. I'm not an idiot. Many, many links have been given to you, but you refuse to even acknowledge it. I have spoke to my vet about this, actually many vets. Of course, some have said why wouldn't you vaccinate but that's to be expected. Considering they're making money off of it. But some have said that if you titer and the immunities are there, there is no reason to vaccinate.


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## whiteleo

hund said:


> Well when parvo sweeps her kennel then you can ask her how she feels about it.
> A family friend of mine bred Pomeranians. They were not vaccinated either and never kept in filthy or abhorrent conditions. The entire litter died as well as the adults. I do have a personal bias. I'm against stupidity...


I also have a bias for people who think they know everything without truly doing any research....Try this _BeyondVaccination_


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## hund

whiteleo said:


> I also have a bias for people who think they know everything without truly doing any research....Try this _BeyondVaccination_


I have read every single one of these links. As I said-- google.
I seem closed minded on this aspect. I am closed minded. Animals should be vaccinated. Period. 
Discuss a uniquely personalized regime. But do SOMETHING. 
I truly hope nothing happens to your dogs. Or anyone else's that they come into contact with...


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## DaViking

I was glad to read the links @whiteleo and @chowder posted to/about Dr. Dodds recommendations. It's pretty much in line with what I have always done and felt necessary. I do the puppy rounds and then again at 1 year. Everything else is as required by law, service and/or travel. Never ever done scheduled re-vaccinations on a yearly basis unless I know it will be required anyway for service reasons. Not going to start now with yearly catch-all shots and I have no reason to consider a zero vaccination policy either. Actually I can't since we travel back and forth to Norway quite often. That's all I have to contribute to this discussion.


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## newlndnfire

I hope someone who does vaccinate their dog, doesn't come near my dogs. Considering they shed the vaccination in their stool. 
They do not need to be vaccinated, if you do it correctly.


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## SaharaNight Boxers

hund said:


> Well when parvo sweeps her kennel then you can ask her how she feels about it.
> A family friend of mine bred Pomeranians. They were not vaccinated either and never kept in filthy or abhorrent conditions. The entire litter died as well as the adults. I do have a personal bias. I'm against stupidity...


Health tested parents? Champions? Shown? Any thought that went into this breeding?


----------



## newlndnfire

Also...what's so wrong with google? lmfao. It's just bringing up websites for you to look at. Websites that have been published by scientists/people who have done a ton of research.


----------



## SaharaNight Boxers

Not to mention if it was fading puppy syndrome you really can't pin it on non vaccinations.


----------



## DaViking

newlndnfire said:


> I hope someone who does vaccinate their dog, doesn't come near my dogs. Considering they shed the vaccination in their stool.
> They do not need to be vaccinated, if you do it correctly.


wow, wear a sign then. Really?


----------



## hund

SaharaNight Boxers said:


> Health tested parents? Champions? Shown? Any thought that went into this breeding?


Had it all.


----------



## newlndnfire

DaViking said:


> wow, wear a sign then. Really?


Why respond to me with this? She said the exact same thing but with the opposite argument lmfao.
And yeah, really.


----------



## hund

DaViking said:


> I was glad to read the links @whiteleo and @chowder posted to/about Dr. Dodds recommendations. It's pretty much in line with what I have always done and felt necessary. I do the puppy rounds and then again at 1 year. Everything else is as required by law, service and/or travel. Never ever done scheduled re-vaccinations on a yearly basis unless I know it will be required anyway for service reasons. Not going to start now with yearly catch-all shots and I have no reason to consider a zero vaccination policy either. Actually I can't since we travel back and forth to Norway quite often. That's all I have to contribute to this discussion.


Yes I don't mind dr dodds ideals. To not vaccinate at ALL. Extremist.


----------



## DaViking

newlndnfire said:


> Why respond to me with this? She said the exact same thing but with the opposite argument lmfao.
> And yeah, really.


Well, it happens I read yours and it's just silly. Not going to say anything else on that topic.


----------



## newlndnfire

DaViking said:


> Well, it happens I read yours and it's just silly. Not going to say anything else on that topic.


It was a joke, lmfao. That's why it was silly. The yeah really, was it's true they do shed the vaccination. Although, I think it's only the first few weeks (maybe days) after it was given? I can't quite remember now.


----------



## DaViking

newlndnfire said:


> It was a joke, lmfao. That's why it was silly. The yeah really, was it's true they do shed the vaccination. Although, I think it's only the first few weeks (maybe days) after it was given? I can't quite remember now.


Ok :smile:


----------



## hund

This is getting silly. 
Bottom line-- do what you want to do with your dogs. I'm sure we are all trying to the best we can for our canine buddies. 
I will not change my mind that zero vaccines is the way to go and I *hope* that people aren't swayed in that particular direction. 
I DO agree with a limited vaccine regime. I do agree that dogs are being over vaccinated and it is effecting their health... we can all agree there.


----------



## newlndnfire

hund said:


> This is getting silly.
> Bottom line-- do what you want to do with your dogs. I'm sure we are all trying to the best we can for our canine buddies.
> I will not change my mind that zero vaccines is the way to go and I *hope* that people aren't swayed in that particular direction.
> I DO agree with a limited vaccine regime. I do agree that dogs are being over vaccinated and it is effecting their health... we can all agree there.


To each their own. I believe, if you want to do something, please research it first and I think we can all agree on that.


----------



## hund

newlndnfire said:


> To each their own. I believe, if you want to do something, please research it first and I think we can all agree on that.


The assumption you are making is that I haven't done research, and you know what they say about assumptions...


----------



## newlndnfire

hund said:


> The assumption you are making is that I haven't done research, and you know what they say about assumptions...


I wasn't assuming actually, it was a general statement. I was trying to be friendly, haha. You know what they say about assumptions.


----------



## RedneckCowgirl

hund said:


> Well. When one of your dogs succumbs to a disease that could have been prevented for 20 dollars then please post that on here as well to educate the others.


I lost a puppy to parvo this year. HOWEVER, it was my fault, and had nothing to do with the fact that I didn't vaccinate him. I took him everywhere with an "It can't happen to me" attitude instead of taking it slow and waiting till he was a bit older to take him places like that. I don't plan on vaccinating any of my dogs, but I DO plan on doing things the right way next time around.

Now, off to finish the thread


----------



## hund

RedneckCowgirl said:


> I lost a puppy to parvo this year. HOWEVER, it was my fault, and had nothing to do with the fact that I didn't vaccinate him. I took him everywhere with an "It can't happen to me" attitude instead of taking it slow and waiting till he was a bit older to take him places like that. I don't plan on vaccinating any of my dogs, but I DO plan on doing things the right way next time around.
> 
> Now, off to finish the thread


Dont you think that you would have learned.... even if someone comes to your house and they have walked through where a parvo infected dog had-- your pup would have been at risk. Kool aid. Tastes good but is it good for you...? 
Well, it is your choice after all


----------



## RedneckCowgirl

Ok. I don't plan on vaccinating any future dogs of mine, even after what happened to Jackson. I was stupid, and took him everywhere right off the bat, instead of slowly expanding/having people come over to socialize/etc. I went about it the wrong way, because I didn't think it could happen to my dog. I feel horrible every day about it. Every time I see a dog that look similar to him it makes me wonder what he would have grown up to look like. I don't know if I'll ever be able to have another border collie. He was perfect, and my stupidity killed him. I can admit that now (I couldn't for quite a while). But that doesn't mean that loading him up with chemicals would have stopped him from getting parvo. I would have had the same attitude about it. Parvo, to me, was something that happened to people whose dogs were living in filth, fed ol roy and not cared about. Not my raw fed, picture of health pup who I loved.


----------



## RedneckCowgirl

hund said:


> Dont you think that you would have learned.... even if someone comes to your house and they have walked through where a parvo infected dog had-- your pup would have been at risk. Kool aid. Tastes good but is it good for you...?
> Well, it is your choice after all


You're right. It IS my choice, and anything you say won't change that. I won't vaccinate my kids if and when I have them either.


----------



## DaViking

RedneckCowgirl said:


> I lost a puppy to parvo this year. HOWEVER, it was my fault, and had nothing to do with the fact that I didn't vaccinate him. I took him everywhere with an "It can't happen to me" attitude instead of taking it slow and waiting till he was a bit older to take him places like that.


You lost a puppy to parvo because you rushed him into the "big bad world"? Or am I missing something?
I am eager to learn, what do you mean by taking it slower and wait until he is older to take him to "places like that" What is the recommended plan for, I guess, building up the immune system to handle for example parvo? When do you know? Since you lost an unvaccinated puppy to parvo this must be paramount to you?


----------



## RedneckCowgirl

DaViking said:


> You lost a puppy to parvo because you rushed him into the "big bad world"? Or am I missing something?
> I am eager to learn, what do you mean by taking it slower and wait until he is older to take him to "places like that" What is the recommended plan for, I guess, building up the immune system to handle for example parvo? When do you know?


Sort of. From the time I brought him home we were going to parks, pet stores, walking around towns (multiple different towns too) going hiking, stuff like that. I've always read that even with a vaccinated dog you are supposed to take things very slow. Bring people over to your house to socialize, if you take pup somewhere, carry them instead of letting them walk or putting them in carts, don't allow them to meet unknown dogs. By taking it slower I mean to only allow playing in the back yard (this is just an example), then the front yard, then take walks down to the end of the street and back, then a litter further, slowly expanding his "world" and allowing his body time to develop some resistance to the bugs and yuckys that surround him before allowing him to be exposed to other bugs and yuckys. I'm really bad at explaining things, so maybe someone else could explain it a little better. lol


----------



## SaharaNight Boxers

hund said:


> Had it all.


Well since you're so factual I won't believe it until I see the facts. Any way, something was obviously wrong there. We're neceopsies done?


----------



## hund

SaharaNight Boxers said:


> Well since you're so factual I won't believe it until I see the facts. Any way, something was obviously wrong there. We're neceopsies done?


This happened about 15 years ago. I know they were duel registered with the AKC and UKC. I know that they died of the parvo virus and yes she did do necropsies on one or two of the puppies as well as both adults. The results were the same. 
I have no proof of this as it was around 15 years ago.


----------



## hund

RedneckCowgirl said:


> Sort of. From the time I brought him home we were going to parks, pet stores, walking around towns (multiple different towns too) going hiking, stuff like that. I've always read that even with a vaccinated dog you are supposed to take things very slow. Bring people over to your house to socialize, if you take pup somewhere, carry them instead of letting them walk or putting them in carts, don't allow them to meet unknown dogs. By taking it slower I mean to only allow playing in the back yard (this is just an example), then the front yard, then take walks down to the end of the street and back, then a litter further, slowly expanding his "world" and allowing his body time to develop some resistance to the bugs and yuckys that surround him before allowing him to be exposed to other bugs and yuckys. I'm really bad at explaining things, so maybe someone else could explain it a little better. lol


I don't understand this. Are there different levels of parvo virus? I think any level of it would kill an unvaccinated dog. 
I don't think you have the first clue as to what you are talking about.


----------



## RedneckCowgirl

hund said:


> I don't understand this. Are there different levels of parvo virus? I think any level of it would kill an unvaccinated dog.
> I don't think you have the first clue as to what you are talking about.


I think that you would think I'm clueless simply because I refuse to vaccinate. No matter what I (or anyone else) says on this, if it disagrees with your views we will be wrong.


----------



## Liz

******* Cowgirl, be sure to PM about proper exposure. We have been doing it for years and the titres we have done have been great. I really am not going to fight about it here but I would be glad to explain how we socialize and expose pups so as not to over burden their baby immune systems. My mentors are on over 30 years of natural rearing and have been fonts of information for me. I am sorry for your loss but even getting a puppy you are vaccinating out everywhere like that will be stressful on his immune system and opens him up to parvo/distemper etc. did the breeder you got your pup from give you any information or were they not naturally rearing?


----------



## RedneckCowgirl

Liz said:


> ******** Cowgirl, be sure to PM about proper exposure.* We have been doing it for years and the titres we have done have been great. I really am not going to fight about it here but I would be glad to explain how we socialize and expose pups so as not to over burden their baby immune systems. My mentors are on over 30 years of natural rearing and have been fonts of information for me. I am sorry for your loss but even getting a puppy you are vaccinating out everywhere like that will be stressful on his immune system and opens him up to parvo/distemper etc.* did the breeder you got your pup from give you any information or were they not naturally rearing?*


They weren't naturally rearing. He had his first puppy shot (which is all Moose has ever had) so I thought that he would be alright. I know that I shouldn't have taken him everywhere (even if he were vaccinated) but like I said, I was young and cocky and thought I knew everything. 


Pm is on its way


----------



## magicre

hund said:


> This is getting silly.
> Bottom line-- do what you want to do with your dogs. I'm sure we are all trying to the best we can for our canine buddies.
> I will not change my mind that zero vaccines is the way to go and I *hope* that people aren't swayed in that particular direction.
> I DO agree with a limited vaccine regime. I do agree that dogs are being over vaccinated and it is effecting their health... we can all agree there.


i think what is silly is this entire discussion...it really doesn't even fit the definition of a discussion or debate.

hund. it's fine if you believe in total and continuing vaccination....

i'm not sure what you hoped to gain from this since you are passionate in what you believe....

if you thought you were going to change our minds by calling us google experts and extremists, well, you gave it your best shot and i guess it fell on deaf ears just as what we are saying is falling on your deaf ears.

i personally am sorry i ever opened this thread. i was hoping for a reasonable discourse. instead, now i know all of my dogs will die without vaccinations and parvo will run rampant and

google is not just a search engine but a false god seer like entity.


----------



## Sheltielover25

Hund, have you ever looked into the other side of the group when it comes to vaccines. Have you ever looked into or even stopped to think about the victims who suffer FROM the vaccines. For every animal you've seen die or suffer from one of these said disease, there's another story out there of a negative reaction to the vaccine. Vaccines are clearly not the answer. No one, and I mean no one, can convince me it's okay to put formaldehyde, aluminum, carbolic acid, mercury and many other unnatural things into a vial and shoot them into my dogs' (or anything for that matter) bodies. No sir, not going to happen. I'll stick to my method of feeding my dogs free-range, organic local meat, giving them no flea/heartworm pills, and no vaccinations. We don't expose our animals to anything unnatural from the toys they play with, to the foods they eat, and even down to the shampoo they get bathed in. I'll take trusting nature over something that is produced and overseen by the same committee.

If you would like to open your mind and grow, here's what vaccine damage does in a dog. I learned the truth the hard way. 

VID_20110509_134857.mp4 video by maddy_ciccone18 - Photobucket


----------



## DaViking

Liz said:


> ******* Cowgirl, be sure to PM about proper exposure. We have been doing it for years and the titres we have done have been great. I really am not going to fight about it here but I would be glad to explain how we socialize and expose pups so as not to over burden their baby immune systems. My mentors are on over 30 years of natural rearing and have been fonts of information for me. I am sorry for your loss but even getting a puppy you are vaccinating out everywhere like that will be stressful on his immune system and opens him up to parvo/distemper etc. did the breeder you got your pup from give you any information or were they not naturally rearing?


Since you do natural rearing why can't you share what is proper method of exposure with everyone? Seriously not after an argument here, just want to understand if your way of doing it would be practical. Might be but I have no way to know. I'll keep it to myself if I disagree :smile:



Liz said:


> ...even getting a puppy you are vaccinating out everywhere like that will be stressful on his immune system and opens him up to parvo/distemper etc.


I disagree that it represent any major issue for an otherwise healthy puppy with a minimum set of vaccinations. I have lived in or close to bigger cities most of my life and never had any problems exposing puppies to all kinds of environments, in cities or out in the countryside. And can't recall at the moment any cases close to me, clients or friends. Actually we carefully seek out environments and situations from the get go. Ppl do this in the millions every day without any big problems, always going to be some exceptions of course.


----------



## Tobi

op2:

This is interesting!

Sheltielover... i'm sad to see that poor pup with such a debilitating issue.. :frown: 

My take on it... I'm anti immunization... our next will not have any, or have a very limited regimen, i suppose it depends on where we are at the time. I know Tobi won't have any more for the duration of his life, I dealt with many problems with issues of immunizations with my apbt, One being a seizure about 15 minutes after a "booster" that was the end of her shots as well.


----------



## Liz

DaViking, I am trying to be non antagonistic (my own made up nonsense word), I believe you would refrain from comment if you disagree and if it were just you and I talking I would have no problem with agreeing to disagree and moving on. This whole thread has been pretty aggressive and I truly don't see the need to explain my procedures to those who don't care, won't listen and are only looking to find fault. When I mentioned vaccinated puppies being susceptible also I meant that owners with puppies who have not yet finished their course of vaccines whether your vet goes for two, three or four in a series of puppy shots are told to limit exposure because until the series is complete they do not have a guarantee of immunity. Friends who vaccinate don't take their pups anywhere except maybe a puppy class before finishing their vaccine series. 

People who get a dog from me get very precise clear instructions, about everything I can imagine they might run into and they are also always encouraged to contact me with questions. The people who are interested because they plan to live a similar lifestyle are who i spend time helping. I really have no need to argue and debate what I will not change, hence the reason i never post asking for opinions on whether to vaccinate, give chemical treatments or such to my dogs. i have researched thoroughly and have capable, experienced mentors and have no desire to change back to a more chemically induced lifestyle. I have no problem with what others choose and respect their choice, I really wish a little respect (not accusing you) would be returned by those who disagree.


----------



## DaViking

Liz said:


> DaViking, I am trying to be non antagonistic (my own made up nonsense word), I believe you would refrain from comment if you disagree and if it were just you and I talking I would have no problem with agreeing to disagree and moving on. This whole thread has been pretty aggressive and I truly don't see the need to explain my procedures to those who don't care, won't listen and are only looking to find fault.


You wouldn't be explaining your procedures to ppl who don't care, you would be giving everyone who read this thread some information and knowledge they can do whatever they want with. Can't speak for others but I'm not looking to find faults or take down your arguments here. I care and I'm looking to learn what you recommend in terms of preparing non vaccinated puppies for a world full of viruses like parvo and distemper. I like to soak up all the knowledge I can, I just discard what I don't believe in.
Maybe, just maybe, someone who read this forum and is about to venture into something they don't fully understand could avoid a looming disaster if you shared with everyone? Food for thought.
If someone attacks your procedures and views in an aggressive manner you have the right to not respond you know. You can still let your knowledge stand on its own feet. Grown ups usually figure it out in the end. It's those who keeps beating around the bush and chronically refuse to show or share any information, background or knowledge I loose respect for (not directed at you)



Liz said:


> When I mentioned vaccinated puppies being susceptible also I meant that owners with puppies who have not yet finished their course of vaccines whether your vet goes for two, three or four in a series of puppy shots are told to limit exposure because until the series is complete they do not have a guarantee of immunity. Friends who vaccinate don't take their pups anywhere except maybe a puppy class before finishing their vaccine series.


It is true that you should limit exposure in weeks 9 to 13 due to ineffective levels of antibodies. But it's really no big deal practically speaking since it's prudent to be careful for many reasons in this period anyway. Do potty training in the backyard or, if you live in a condo or an apartment, find a spot where you never see anyone walking their dog and hang out there for a little while. From week 14 to 16 you should be able to start with normal exposure. Just sharing regardless of ppl wanting to argue this or not.


I couldn't care less if ppl reading what I write agree with my views, opinions or lifestyle. I think that is a little bit ridiculous actually, ppl will keep, discard or question. It's up to me if I want to respond. Oh well, I tried, if you wont share with everyone here how you prepare your puppies and what titer results you get at various stages you won't share, simple as that. Everyone are free to make up their own mind.


----------



## CorgiPaws

hund said:


> Thank you for the assumption on my dogs diet. Even IF that were the case, there is nothing wrong with it.
> If you have seen a puppy die of parvo then you will change your mind, if you don't, you have mental issues.





hund said:


> Well when parvo sweeps her kennel then you can ask her how she feels about it.
> A family friend of mine bred Pomeranians. They were not vaccinated either and never kept in filthy or abhorrent conditions. The entire litter died as well as the adults. I do have a personal bias. I'm against stupidity...


Hund,
You are new around here so I will lay it out for you. Respectful discussions and debates are not only allowed, but encouraged here. Aggressive attacks, calling other members stupid or telling them they have mental issues because they disagree with your OPINION 
Will absolutely not be tolerated in any capacity. If you can not discuss like a reasonable adult then you will NOT last long here. Being a complete jerk is not the most effective way to get people to listen to you, and makes you sound incredibly uneducated. 
First and last warning.




hund said:


> I don't understand this. Are there different levels of parvo virus? I think any level of it would kill an unvaccinated dog.
> I don't think you have the first clue as to what you are talking about.


I know a Dane breeder who HAS vaccinated her litter, whose whole litter got Parvo and with proper in home care, everyone us just fine now. 

I don't vaccinate other than rabies to protect my pack from the law. And I won't with my skin kids. Either. Why? I know better. That's why.


----------



## Chocx2

I have a dog who was vaccinated and still got parvo, he was one of 10 in the litter, five died, my boy fought for 7 days on iv and was pumped full of plazma. He no longer gets vaccines. They made him sick.

The vaccines are only good for what ever strain is going around.

This dog is pictured down below, the big muscle bound boy in the air lol

My county accepts titers for Rabbies.


----------



## Tracy

I think the facts are in the sticky's are they not?
In my case, it's not about NOT vaccinating your dog, it's about checking immunity before giving a booster. If a dog or a person for that matter is immune, then it's immune. That is fact. Giving another booster will not make it more immune, in fact it will most probably compromise the immune system and make it much more difficult for the poor dog to fight off infection and disease in the future, never mind creating lots of other disorders in the dog. Lots and lots of research has been done on this, check out the sticky's at the top.

Tracy
xx


----------



## Tracy

I'm actually finding this topic very interesting apart from some of the horrible comments. I actually didn't realise people didn't get their puppies vaccinated. I'm not sure I would ever do this, but I'm happy to hear the other side. I joined this form mainly because I hoped to gain lots of info on natural diets, vaccines and immunity. Do puppies get a teter test to check their immunity at a certain age if they've had no vaccinations? Sorry if this info is here somewhere. I don't recall reading it. We've just had teter tests for 2 of our dogs and they've both got very good immunity to Parvo & Distemper. What do we think of the Leptospirosis vaccine. Yes or no. I'm still in debate over this one. The rabies does not apply to us, as we're in the UK and do take the dogs abroad.

Thank you

Tracy
xx


----------



## Tracy

Sorry. The last post was meant to say that we DONT go abroad.:redface:


----------



## Liz

Hi Tracy, welcome. My pups get a titre before going to their homes at about 4 months, if their owners take them a little earlier they usually take them in for a titre. All pups thus far have tested well and families are comfortable. As for Lepto it has been know to cause reactions and not be very effective. You might want to check at a map on line and see what the incidence of Lepto is in your area and then check for efficacy and side effects before making your decision. I hope you find some good information on feeding and care. Good to have you.


----------



## bett

my dog is in liver failure and will receive zero vaccinations.


----------



## Tracy

Thanks Liz. I can see the logic in allowing puppies to gain natural immunity.
I've looked at a fair bit of research on Leptospirosis, it's vaccines, how they catch it, spread to humans, treatment for it etc. I don't think my dogs are a high risk to contract it and I'm confident if they did, they have fantastic immunity to everything else, I would expect they could fight that off too. They are not exercised in places where it lurks and the vets cannot give me any cases where dogs have died from it recently in this area. A friend of mine lost her Lab a few years ago to Lepto, this dog was vaccinated. I understand the vaccine is probably one of the worst ones to give side effects and as far as I'm aware, there are so many different strains of Lepto, the vaccine is probably useless anyway. It does not even last a year.
Great to get all this info, soaking it all up.

Tracy
xx


----------



## tem_sat

To hund: Benji, the 26 year old PMR fed mixed breed, won't be getting vaccinations either...

To see his pic: http://dogfoodchat.com/forum/raw-feeding/17023-raw-feeding-okay-inactive-dog-2.html#post211990

Sincerely,
Tara (The Extremist)


----------



## naturalfeddogs

One of the vets I worked for several years ago refused to give any dog a lepto vaccine. The only way he would was if someone was about to travel to an area of the country where it was a risk. Even then he was skeptical of it. I worked for him for almost five years and in that time he never gave one, but said thats the only way he ever would.


----------



## Tracy

Amazing how different vets have different views on it. I'm going with the advice from my holistic vet, as our own local vets are a waste of space. Our holistic vet told us to check with our own vet about cases of lepto in our area, and told us is was our choice and if they have good titres to everything else, then that would be good enough. He mentioned about areas where we exercise our dogs and where lepto lurks. He sent me an e-mail mentioning lepto nosodes, but I've not looked into those yet, although I think I've heard the nosodes are not very reliable. I dont think he wanted to say yay or nay to us. I've just finished typing up a letter to our own vets with the results of our titre tests and explaining why we felt the need to go to a different vet to get advice and proper information on boosters. My gut is saying they don't need lepto.

Tracy
xx


----------



## naturalfeddogs

Unless there are a lot of reported cases in your area, I wouldn't do it. There is just too much risk vs. benefits, IMO.


----------



## SaharaNight Boxers

Tracy said:


> Amazing how different vets have different views on it. I'm going with the advice from my holistic vet, as our own local vets are a waste of space. Our holistic vet told us to check with our own vet about cases of lepto in our area, and told us is was our choice and if they have good titres to everything else, then that would be good enough. He mentioned about areas where we exercise our dogs and where lepto lurks. He sent me an e-mail mentioning lepto nosodes, but I've not looked into those yet, although I think I've heard the nosodes are not very reliable. I dont think he wanted to say yay or nay to us. I've just finished typing up a letter to our own vets with the results of our titre tests and explaining why we felt the need to go to a different vet to get advice and proper information on boosters. My gut is saying they don't need lepto.
> 
> Tracy
> xx


The lepto shot covers one strain of it when there are hundreds of them. I wouldn't get it. I know a lot d people actually don't get it and even some vets won't recommend it.


----------



## hund

I don't agree with the lepto vaccine. I'm not a huge fan of bordetella either...
Basic vaccines I'm a staunch believer in. I won't be changing my mind... thank you all for the information.


----------



## Dude and Bucks Mamma

hund said:


> Thank you for the assumption on my dogs diet. Even IF that were the case, there is nothing wrong with it.
> If you have seen a puppy die of parvo then you will change your mind, if you don't, you have mental issues.


I recently watched a puppy die of parvo. On the 8th of this month, actually. My mind has not changed. It could have been treated but the pup was euthanized because the owners weren't willing. Guess what? That pup was vaccinated. 



hund said:


> It's better then knowing 100% that my dog has no immunity whatsoever.


Fortunately, that's where you're wrong. 



hund said:


> Well when parvo sweeps her kennel then you can ask her how she feels about it.
> A family friend of mine bred Pomeranians. They were not vaccinated either and never kept in filthy or abhorrent conditions. The entire litter died as well as the adults. I do have a personal bias. I'm against stupidity...


I am going to ask you to refrain from "predicting" that all of Liz's HEALTHY UNVACCINATED dogs are going to die from parvo. It is rude and uncalled for. Knock it off.


----------



## Herzo

My dad got a pup from the shelter years ago that I knew the parents were from good working lines. She was such a beautiful red and white female and was going very well with her herding. As in the sheep. she was going to be a very good dog I think. She had had her shots and when they gave her a booster I believe it brought it on and she was on IV's for several days and died of parvo anyway. They had a big vet bill and no dog. 

I think it is fine you want to vaccinate your dogs and mine are all vaccinated also, but I will never vaccinate every year and for one Maddie will never have another one and I don't think Turtle will either. I stop as they get older. I understand about rabies but I also think you need to tone it down. Do people get parvo and distemper? And Rabies needs to be given less as well it lasts much longer than 2 and 3 years.

I don't think anyone cares if your mind changes or not ours won't either.


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## Liz

Thank you Dude and Bucks Momma for your sweet defense and understanding. Hund, I have had parvo "sweep through my kennel" twice with in 3 years. Astoundingly enough it was when we were receiving all the recommended vet check ups and following the vaccination protocols. Pups had never left the home and even all the adults were current on vaccines. Since stopping vaccines I have had no parvos, distemper, etc.  Parvo cost me 10 puppies from two litter, several thousands dollars, and many tears and heartache. Now we are ready for anything - I expect the best and prepare for the worst. Parvo is not so scary anymore.


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## starturtle

This is such an interesting and difficult topic for me. I read most of the comments and it seems many of the forum members choose not to vaccinate. I have nothing against it, but I am just not sure if it’s possible for everyone to do. 

Unfortunately, I usually have to kennel my dogs a few times a year. I have a sitter but sometimes our schedules don’t work and my only option is to kennel. Because of this my dogs have to have certain vaccines. I realize some kennels will accept titres instead but in my area those are few and far between. I am also partial to the one I use because of the care my dogs receive. 

My other concern is I do a lot of work with a local rescue and it is not uncommon for me to take stray dogs to vet check ups or even house them right off the street before a visit can be arranged. Unchecked dogs are never allowed in contact with mine, but that does not mean they don’t ride in the same car they do, walk across the same doorway or even use the same yard my dogs do. I will admit there is a part of me that vaccinates out of ignorance and fear. I have not done enough research on the topic to be certain my dogs would be safer unvaccinated. For me the knowledge that my dogs have been vaccinated is an extra piece of mind, regardless of whether it’s 100% effective. 

I know several of you rescue and foster dogs and do not vaccinate, I am curious as to how you handle your foster dogs. Are they tested and vet checked before they enter your house? What about transportation? How do you make sure nothing is transferred? Is it all based on the fact your dogs have built an immunity? I guess that is where my biggest issues and questions lie. I feel like I would be tempting fate to stop vaccinating.


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## Sprocket

starturtle said:


> This is such an interesting and difficult topic for me. I read most of the comments and it seems many of the forum members choose not to vaccinate. I have nothing against it, but I am just not sure if it’s possible for everyone to do.
> 
> Unfortunately, I usually have to kennel my dogs a few times a year. I have a sitter but sometimes our schedules don’t work and my only option is to kennel. Because of this my dogs have to have certain vaccines. I realize some kennels will accept titres instead but in my area those are few and far between. I am also partial to the one I use because of the care my dogs receive.
> 
> My other concern is I do a lot of work with a local rescue and it is not uncommon for me to take stray dogs to vet check ups or even house them right off the street before a visit can be arranged. Unchecked dogs are never allowed in contact with mine, but that does not mean they don’t ride in the same car they do, walk across the same doorway or even use the same yard my dogs do. I will admit there is a part of me that vaccinates out of ignorance and fear. I have not done enough research on the topic to be certain my dogs would be safer unvaccinated. For me the knowledge that my dogs have been vaccinated is an extra piece of mind, regardless of whether it’s 100% effective.
> 
> *I know several of you rescue and foster dogs and do not vaccinate, I am curious as to how you handle your foster dogs.* Are they tested and vet checked before they enter your house? What about transportation? How do you make sure nothing is transferred? Is it all based on the fact your dogs have built an immunity? I guess that is where my biggest issues and questions lie. I feel like I would be tempting fate to stop vaccinating.


I would assume that since vaccinated dogs are just as much at risk as unvaccinated dogs. The precaution is exactly the same. Are foster dogs tested and vet checked before they enter the home of vaccinated dogs? unvaccinated? Either way, a certain amount of risk has to be accepted.

This cannot be repeated enough. *Vaccinating does not guarantee immunity. *


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## Liz

We do rescue, and pet sit. We take normal precautions. All my adults are as immune as vaccinated dogs. The only time I will not take in a rescue is when I have a litter of puppies as it take a while to build their immunites properly and about two weeks before a female is due to deliver. Otherwise we take dogs in all the time.  If we have puppies we also don't have any newly vaccinated dogs come in as they shed the virus/disease they were vaccinated against for about 2 weeks and being that it came from a vaccine it is more dangerous. If a sick pup came in i really would not be concerned as natural immunity is built through exposure to the virus/disease in nature not from artificial vaccines.  JMHO


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## starturtle

Liz said:


> We do rescue, and pet sit. We take normal precautions. All my adults are as immune as vaccinated dogs. The only time I will not take in a rescue is when I have a litter of puppies as it take a while to build their immunites properly and about two weeks before a female is due to deliver. Otherwise we take dogs in all the time.  If we have puppies we also don't have any newly vaccinated dogs come in as they shed the virus/disease they were vaccinated against for about 2 weeks and being that it came from a vaccine it is more dangerous. If a sick pup came in i really would not be concerned as natural immunity is built through exposure to the virus/disease in nature not from artificial vaccines.  JMHO


I guess I need to read up on it more and become more educated about it. You may be getting some PM's from me along the way. I am slowly working my way toward being more natural and holistic when it comes to my dogs.


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## InkedMarie

This is a very interesting thread. One of my shelties passed away in 2010 at almost 10yrs of age. He had all the usual vaccines, because I didn't know any better, til he was, I think, 7. At that time, I said, he's had enough. I had him from 10 weeks so I know he had vaccines. My other sheltie came here at age 11yrs; she passed in 2011. She was surrendered to the shelter, who gave her the whole host of vaccines but all she got from me was rabies. Oh the first sheltie the same thing, only rabies after age 7. 
My current two are Boone, a 6.5yr old and Ginger, a 2yr old. I started titering Boone when he was 4yrs old. He had titers once, the vet said his numbers are fine so he only gets rabies. Ginger had vaccines at the breeder. She was "due" when she was 16mos old but at that point, she got titered. Unless the vet thinks she needs a booster, she will have nothing except rabies. 
I never thought about not vaccinating at all but it makes some sense. I can say for sure that if I, for some reason, adopted a shelter puppy, I'd probably vaccinate because I would have no knowledge of the "breeders". I don't anticipate a shelter puppy so I'm good there LOL.
One question I have is what do you all do if you have no vet that approves? My holistic vet may but she is not a vet that you see unless you have an issue or it's their yearly. You must have a vet that your dogs see for routine stuff. She does no surgery or stuff like that. Since my other vets would like me to feed SD or Purina vet foods, I'm pretty darn sure they would not be happy if I did not vaccinate at all. They don't approve of titers either.


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## whiteleo

InkedMarie said:


> This is a very interesting thread. One of my shelties passed away in 2010 at almost 10yrs of age. He had all the usual vaccines, because I didn't know any better, til he was, I think, 7. At that time, I said, he's had enough. I had him from 10 weeks so I know he had vaccines. My other sheltie came here at age 11yrs; she passed in 2011. She was surrendered to the shelter, who gave her the whole host of vaccines but all she got from me was rabies. Oh the first sheltie the same thing, only rabies after age 7.
> My current two are Boone, a 6.5yr old and Ginger, a 2yr old. I started titering Boone when he was 4yrs old. He had titers once, the vet said his numbers are fine so he only gets rabies. Ginger had vaccines at the breeder. She was "due" when she was 16mos old but at that point, she got titered. Unless the vet thinks she needs a booster, she will have nothing except rabies.
> I never thought about not vaccinating at all but it makes some sense. I can say for sure that if I, for some reason, adopted a shelter puppy, I'd probably vaccinate because I would have no knowledge of the "breeders". I don't anticipate a shelter puppy so I'm good there LOL.
> One question I have is what do you all do if you have no vet that approves? My holistic vet may but she is not a vet that you see unless you have an issue or it's their yearly. You must have a vet that your dogs see for routine stuff. She does no surgery or stuff like that. Since my other vets would like me to feed SD or Purina vet foods, I'm pretty darn sure they would not be happy if I did not vaccinate at all. They don't approve of titers either.


Your vet works for you and if you have decided it's time for them to be done with vaccines then they really can't say much.. I take my dogs in every year for a wellness exam and blood work. I said no more vaccines and he didn't really say much, what can he say, really? I do give the dogs a 3 yr. rabies vaccine though because they are licensed by the county.


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## InkedMarie

whiteleo said:


> Your vet works for you and if you have decided it's time for them to be done with vaccines then they really can't say much.. I take my dogs in every year for a wellness exam and blood work. I said no more vaccines and he didn't really say much, what can he say, really? I do give the dogs a 3 yr. rabies vaccine though because they are licensed by the county.


You are right, that's what I tell them. I probably should clarify a bit, my question was for those who do NO vaccines, what do their vets say?


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## Liz

My vet is very respectful though he is old school. We discuss issues and he knows I have put a lot of time into researching the pro's and con's before I do anything like this. He also respects my desire for holistic treatment whenever possible and i respect him as diagnostician he is. He refers clients to me now for raw feeding and training info and I refer clients to him for treatment and vet care. he calls laughs a little at what he calls my "hippie ways' but even researches some of what we talk about.


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## stajbs

Liz, I have read your views on vaccines and while I may not totally 100% agree I do subscribe to a very limited protocol personally. The bain of my existence is the rabies vaccine. My two seniors are due in January, one of them will be one month away from turning 14 the other will be just 4 months shy of age 13. The last time I allowed my two seniors who were similar in age to get the vaccine because it is required in our state, I lost them both in the span of two weeks three months later. Now maybe that was just a horrid coincidence, but I would really like to say NO to rabies. Do you do rabies at all, is it required by your state? If it's required do you know any way around it? Titres etc. I know there had been some work being done with respect to rabies vaccines in PA at the govt. level and I thought if your vet was willing to say that due to this or that health condition it is not recommended to vaccinate this dog. Anyone ever encounter this say no and have no repercussions? Any input would be appreciated.


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## Liz

Yes Rabies is technically required in my state and no my current dogs have never had a rabies and my oldest female has only had one set of puppy shots. The rest are vaccine free. My dogs are tattoed but not licensed. We do go to training classes - I just sign a release of liability form releasing the group from being responsible should my dog become ill. We show and are active in the community. I avoid dog parks like the plague - mostly because they harbor as much disease and I really don't need my dogs learning poor behaviors. We do play dates. My dogs are also never boarded - we use a pet sitter if necessary. We are 9 years of not vaccinating and one our third generation. 

I do not expect everyone to agree with not vaccinating as you also have to have treatment plans in place should your dog get ill but I do respect your care and research in using a minimal vaccine protocol. The less the better and definitely avoid with senior dogs. 

I am currently praying that the rabies Challenge group can help get waivers in Washington state.


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## chowder

Liz said:


> Yes Rabies is technically required in my state and no my current dogs have never had a rabies and my oldest female has only had one set of puppy shots. The rest are vaccine free. My dogs are tattoed but not licensed. We do go to training classes - I just sign a release of liability form releasing the group from being responsible should my dog become ill. We show and are active in the community. I avoid dog parks like the plague - mostly because they harbor as much disease and I really don't need my dogs learning poor behaviors. We do play dates. My dogs are also never boarded - we use a pet sitter if necessary. We are 9 years of not vaccinating and one our third generation.
> 
> I do not expect everyone to agree with not vaccinating as you also have to have treatment plans in place should your dog get ill but I do respect your care and research in using a minimal vaccine protocol. The less the better and definitely avoid with senior dogs.
> 
> I am currently praying that the rabies Challenge group can help get waivers in Washington state.


I'm trying to figure out what to do about the rabies right now. Unfortunately, we actually have a rabies problem here. Last week, a dog in my town tested positive for rabies. The week before that, a couple in my town found a dead bat in their bedroom just laying on the floor. It tested positive for rabies. So far this year, there have been 15 cases of confirmed rabies in our county as opposed to last year when there were 16 cases for the entire year in the county. If your dog is even thought to be exposed to a positive animal (as in 'near' one as in the dead bat in the house) they require a quarantine or euthanasia. 

Rocky will be due for his 3 year at the same time that Brisco turns 4 months. If I decided to get them both their mandatory rabies, would it be better to get both dogs their rabies the same day so that they are each shedding the rabies vaccine at the same time or would it be better to get them done at separate months? Or does it even make a difference? I hate getting them that rabies, especially since I know that Rocky is immune from previous vaccines, but I hate the idea of anyone taking Rocky away for a mandatory quarantine if a bat comes in my house (and we have had them living in our attic eaves).


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## IslandPaws4Raw

I am getting ready to take Kai in for her first rabies shot and booster shot ever, and I am nervous. I will be traveling to Florida in November for an agility competition. If she reacts badly to either of the vaccines required, her days of competing internationally will be over. I will just keep her on home turf and compete locally. She just turned two, so this will be the first time since I had her limited puppy series done that she will be vaccinated. My vet put up with me ordering only parvo/distemper shots when she was a pup. I could tell he didn't like it...but he cooperated with me. I live in a rabies free country, so really they only ever have to get the vac for it if we travel. And now I find out that Florida will not even accept the three year vac......I am pissed about that, but there's nothing I can do. I just have to hope that my wish to compete with my dogs does not cause any major issues.

I really look forward to the day when titers will be accepted in the U.S, and in my own backwards country. Because now it is a real hassle for us that want to travel with our dogs. It's harder to get our dogs back into the country, than it is to leave.


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## InkedMarie

Liz said:


> My vet is very respectful though he is old school. We discuss issues and he knows I have put a lot of time into researching the pro's and con's before I do anything like this. He also respects my desire for holistic treatment whenever possible and i respect him as diagnostician he is. He refers clients to me now for raw feeding and training info and I refer clients to him for treatment and vet care. he calls laughs a little at what he calls my "hippie ways' but even researches some of what we talk about.


I have three vets: my holistic vet, my local vet who is very close but I won't use him for surgeries or anything like that, then my main vet. When Boone went in a few months back with 5 days of diarrhea, the first question out of his associates mouth was "you don't feed him that raw diet, do you"? I didn't but I still rolled my eyes. Anyway, I prefer the owner of the clinic, I trust him with my pets lives and he is a great diagnostician as well. He is a little old school in the fact that he wants my dogs to have all the vaccines, heartworm preventive every month all year and flea/tick topicals. Oh and veterinary food. I pick my battles. 
Your vet sounds awesome!


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## Celt

I have personally experienced parvo killing off almost an entire litter (2 out of 6 survived). This was after they had been vaccinated. There have been 3 incidents of parvo in my "family" after vaccinations (one was at the "end" of the puppy shots) and only the youngest pup survived. I do get my pups vaccinated and pray every time that it will "work" ( and not make them "sick") because there is a high infection rate around here (this year, vets were saying it was a particularly nasty strain). Rabies have been documented in dogs (and a human) and other animals every year here and the "law" is rather draconian in enforcing the quarantee/euthansize if near rule (they generally side on euthanize if they find out you've haven't vaccinated your pet), so they get that shot as well. But here, the vaccine are 3 yr (except for puppy shots) so it seems a more "limited" schedule than in other areas. If I lived in a less "infectious" area, I would probably not vaccinate after the first 3 yr shot (if I were braver maybe not at all). Then again, I most likely wouldn't vaccinate on a yearly basis (aside from rabies which usually has some rather nasty laws associated with not having the vaccine).


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## lily

I will no longer do boosters ,I lost my beautiful bulldog due to over vaccination,my chi pup has had her puppy vacs well half dose!,but I won't risk boosters,it's each to his own and we are guided by the info we get online,breeders,and other dog owners we must do what we are comfortable with and what we as dog owners believe what is good for our dogs,karen


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## 1605

When we get Cheeney back in all likelihood he will be due some shots. However, both of us have agreed that we would like to have a good "heart to heart" with the vet about what the dogs really need and why. 

Cheeney didn't react well to his first rabies shot and we decided that subsequent boosters or immunizations would definitely need more explanation. 

That being said, another thread on here talks about titers, but I have to admit that I found it very confusing. In fact this whole discussion about immunizations is confusing! :wacko:


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## SterlingValleyGoldens

Since most vaccinations do not guarantee that the dog will not contract the disease, it is putting more toxins into their bodies than are needed. Some dogs are also more susceptible to vaccination side effects. Not to mention that after the first rounds of puppy shots most dogs are "fully vaccinated" and if titres are done this will show continued immunity and "boosters" are not needed. With that said, I do not even fully vaccinate my human kids, and do a very delayed/selective schedule.

We do vaccinate for rabies since the risks of possibly contracting the disease (although, admittedly are very very slim) outweigh the risks of possible side effects and it is required by law where I live.


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## pogo

I'm in the UK so we don't have to give the rabies jab unless they go aboard and we don't

I do not vaccinate my dogs, Harvey is my first dog and i did give him puppy jabs as i hadn't read up fully on them and he did have a bad reaction and was sick for a few weeks, I will not vaccinate any future pups and neither harv or chance will have any further jabs, to the up most objection of my vets.

I'd also like to add i've seen some horrific side effects that dogs have got from being vaccinated, including 2 beautiful rotty pups who both died horrifically within 48 hours of having the first lots of jabs. Also alot of dogs who have contracted parvo and died even after being vaccinated for years.

To me it's not worth the risk to their health to give them a jab that could _potentially_ kill them and that doesn't guarantee immunity anyway.....


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## Chocx2

I have to tell you I live in Florida, I believe there was a few cases causing death. My dogs have swam in some of the nastiest cow watering holes known to man. I can't believe I let them, my friend who is a vet was right there with me telling me its fine. And they survived, life is a gift with your companion I believe I have taken great care of my animals, feeding them the right foods, all the best for my furkids. I think some of it is left up to God.


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## Swissy Lady

Chocx2 said:


> My county accepts titers for Rabbies.


I see that you live in Florida...how would I find this out for my county? I am in Collier County (Naples)


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