# Lamb and beef = high fat? and raw diet for dogs with liver disease?



## nickiklaus (Dec 10, 2011)

my dog was diagnosed with liver disease today... a year after i started the raw diet and the vet said its because of it...  could it be? it says liver disease can be caused by high fat diets. 
I gave lamb chicken and beef and then repeat and chicken wing everyday but i read on here actually its good to give mostly red meat as it is better than white meat and now it turns out she had too much fat from the lamb and beef? what should i do now? my other dog too i am thinking of changing her diet instead of the 5 times a week of red meat i give now i will do 5 times a week chicken meat and 2 times a week lamb and beef 
Also what diet should i give my dog with liver disease? canned food? or continue with raw but change it to just chicken or something? (should i still give bone? ) 
any advice is SO appreciated 
thank you


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## Tracy (Aug 11, 2012)

Just wanted to say how sorry I was to hear about your little dog. I have no advice to offer I'm afraid, as my dogs have only been on raw for 6 months. 
I think there is a high majority of vets who will disagree with a raw diet and blame it for anything that goes wrong with your dog, so I wouldn't take that as gospel. I'm sure more experienced raw feeders can answer your question about the effects of a raw diet and liver disease.


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## BearMurphy (Feb 29, 2012)

why are you asking if you should still give bones? you will need to supplement her diet if you remove that element.

feeding a raw diet to a dog that has specific dietary needs will require you to do some more research in addition to asking for advice on this forum. maybe someone can also provide you with some good sources of information

I hope your pup will be ok


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## MollyWoppy (Mar 19, 2010)

For what it's worth....my friends 14yo pug had high liver values, steadily climbing the past 3 years or so. He was switched from kibble to raw 2 years ago. His levels stabalised on milk thistle supplements and we tried to give him a diet low in copper. His values then started climbing again, and then he died a couple of months ago, he went downhill not long after he started coughing quite badly. He was taken to a vet hospital and they found he had a collapsed trachea. And had had so for quite a few years. The seizure, the lack of pigment in his coat were all initially blamed on his liver failing, but after discovering the trachea problem we found that they had actually been caused by a lack of oxygen. 
Sometimes you need to look a bit further. I'm only telling you this because I'm pretty sure you mentioned something about coughing.
There are many, many dogs who have been on a raw diet for far, far longer than a year and they do not have problems. Mine included. Some dogs, just like people are predisposed to certain medical problems.
Keep researching and learning all you can about liver disease.


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## nickiklaus (Dec 10, 2011)

Thank you all for your messages and advice. 
I have researched diet for liver diseased dogs and i am going to do a diet consisting of no raw food. I read raw food is only good for dogs with healthy livers as unhealthy ones cannot properly remove bacteria in the raw food and it stays and builds up in body. just yogurt,boiled white chicken.fish,rice,oatmeal,boiled egg,vegetables,cottage cheese and supplements (milk thistle and taurine)


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## SaharaNight Boxers (Jun 28, 2011)

I'd be more inclined to think that it was genetic. I know liver problems are more common in small breeds I believe. 

Here's a good link for some info on diet and the like. I love this website. 
DogAware.com Health: Liver Disease in Dogs

If anything high fat would cause pancreatitis.


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## BearMurphy (Feb 29, 2012)

did they tell you how high her levels were?


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## nickiklaus (Dec 10, 2011)

yes, she said the ''worrying'' numbers were the GPT Transaminase the normal is 22-84 and she said 1000+ and ALP Alkaline Phosphatase normal is 38-165 she had 3500+
are there any supplements that's good for liver disease besides the taurine and milk thistle i am planning to give? (when it arrives) i tried looking for denamarin and they dont have in japan
also Bearmurphy you mentioned i should supplement for the removal of the bone, which supplemenent do you recommend?
thank you all for the advice


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## BearMurphy (Feb 29, 2012)

nickiklaus said:


> yes, she said the ''worrying'' numbers were the GPT Transaminase the normal is 22-84 and she said 1000+ and ALP Alkaline Phosphatase normal is 38-165 she had 3500+
> are there any supplements that's good for liver disease besides the taurine and milk thistle i am planning to give? (when it arrives) i tried looking for denamarin and they dont have in japan
> also Bearmurphy you mentioned i should supplement for the removal of the bone, which supplemenent do you recommend?
> thank you all for the advice


if you don't give bones you need a calcium supplement. some people use dried and ground eggshells. I see you have been posting several times today about giving bone so you are going to stick with it?


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## nickiklaus (Dec 10, 2011)

BearMurphy said:


> if you don't give bones you need a calcium supplement. some people use dried and ground eggshells. I see you have been posting several times today about giving bone so you are going to stick with it?


I actually asked thr bone question as i have 2 dogs and 1 of them
Is still on the regular raw diet since theyre healthy and for the one with liver problem i dunno what to feed i dont know if raw diet is bad or not or if i should do homecook there is nothing on this topic on internet (raw feeding with liver problems in dogs) if i do homecook i would give boiled egg with shell for calcium


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## naturalfeddogs (Jan 6, 2011)

Where's Natalie? I'm sure she would be able to answer all of your questions on this. Maybe she will see this and give her advice.


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## Sheltielover25 (Jan 18, 2011)

nickiklaus said:


> my dog was diagnosed with liver disease today... a year after i started the raw diet and the vet said its because of it...  could it be? it says liver disease can be caused by high fat diets.
> I gave lamb chicken and beef and then repeat and chicken wing everyday but i read on here actually its good to give mostly red meat as it is better than white meat and now it turns out she had too much fat from the lamb and beef? what should i do now? my other dog too i am thinking of changing her diet instead of the 5 times a week of red meat i give now i will do 5 times a week chicken meat and 2 times a week lamb and beef
> Also what diet should i give my dog with liver disease? canned food? or continue with raw but change it to just chicken or something? (should i still give bone? )
> any advice is SO appreciated
> thank you


Every since you posted this it got me thinking about my dogs and their diet and how it is probably high in fat and if they could affect the liver. I read a really great book "Unlocking the Canine Ancestral Diet: Healthier Dog Food the ABC Way." I didn't agree with his way of thinking 100%, but I did learn some interesting stuff in regards to fats and the raw diet. He explained how feeding factory-farmed, and even free-range isn't really that similar to a dog's ancestral diet because wild-caught animals have considerably higher protein and considerably less fat due to always being on the move due to food and also danger elements. So the meat we're feeding to our pets now isn't the same as the meat they'd eat in the wild due to the fact these animals live a sedentary life either in factory-farms or even free-range since they just basically graze all day. 

It also touches on the fact that the fat differs from farmed animals and wild animals. For example, wild animals need significant amounts of DHA to see/think/move quickly. They convert more ALA to DHA than a domesticated animal because a domesticated animal has no need for high levels of DHA and it's more expensive in terms of nutrients/energy. I suppose this is why people add in fish oil? 

I'm changing my gang's diet due to this and plan to feed leaner meats -- whole rabbits/quail/guinea pig and then tripe and possibly veal or a form of heart and plan to add more sardines/oysters. Less red meat, but still include the red meat. I feel like it's important to get the secreting organs like the thalamus and pancreas so whole prey is going to be a 3-4 time a week thing. It also mentioned how farmed animals have considerably less mineral content than wild animals so I'm going to do something to address that. I already add magnesium oil to their water.

Best of luck and check out the book I mentioned if you're interested in learning more about trying to meet the ancestral diet....


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## Tracy (Aug 11, 2012)

That book sounds very interesting. I've got it on my list.

I've wondered also about the grass eating thing. My dogs generally don't eat a lot of grass, but I have noticed that when I feed just meat or boned meat for a few days, they search for grass. My collie refused to eat his chicken carcase the other day and ate grass instead. I gave him nothing until dinner and then offered him tripe with a little meat. He ate it fine and went back to eating his chicken carcase the next morning. I used to give veg a couple of times a week, but have recently stopped, as I was trying to stick to the PMR feeding way.


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## nickiklaus (Dec 10, 2011)

Sheltielover25 said:


> Every since you posted this it got me thinking about my dogs and their diet and how it is probably high in fat and if they could affect the liver. I read a really great book "Unlocking the Canine Ancestral Diet: Healthier Dog Food the ABC Way." I didn't agree with his way of thinking 100%, but I did learn some interesting stuff in regards to fats and the raw diet. He explained how feeding factory-farmed, and even free-range isn't really that similar to a dog's ancestral diet because wild-caught animals have considerably higher protein and considerably less fat due to always being on the move due to food and also danger elements. So the meat we're feeding to our pets now isn't the same as the meat they'd eat in the wild due to the fact these animals live a sedentary life either in factory-farms or even free-range since they just basically graze all day.
> 
> It also touches on the fact that the fat differs from farmed animals and wild animals. For example, wild animals need significant amounts of DHA to see/think/move quickly. They convert more ALA to DHA than a domesticated animal because a domesticated animal has no need for high levels of DHA and it's more expensive in terms of nutrients/energy. I suppose this is why people add in fish oil?
> 
> ...


yes please learn from my mistake.. dont let your dogs diet be too high in fat / red meat


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## Sheltielover25 (Jan 18, 2011)

Tracy said:


> That book sounds very interesting. I've got it on my list.
> 
> I've wondered also about the grass eating thing. My dogs generally don't eat a lot of grass, but I have noticed that when I feed just meat or boned meat for a few days, they search for grass. My collie refused to eat his chicken carcase the other day and ate grass instead. I gave him nothing until dinner and then offered him tripe with a little meat. He ate it fine and went back to eating his chicken carcase the next morning. I used to give veg a couple of times a week, but have recently stopped, as I was trying to stick to the PMR feeding way.


Yeah, check out the book! It's only about 174 pages and a quick read if you're interested in it. I bought it on-line for 9.95 and read it on my computer.  

The book focused one day a week "fresh food day"for kibble feeds, you could do more but the book tried to reach out to the busiest of busiest people who don't have a lot of time. I'll make time for mine so I wish he'd gone a little deeper on the raw side, but he did go pretty deep into home cooked. He also talked about mixing the wrong oils with fats can cause a lot of issues for the organs over time. The sad thing it's not just the red meat that has fat... he suggested always trimming the fat/skin off factory-farmed chicken because the fat content is much, much higher than an animal would ever eat in the wild. Just a lot of stuff I'm learning. He suggests kibble feeders buy the most basic bag they can find and add their own fresh toppings once a week or so. He talked about how some fats go rancid once the bag is opened so after 2 weeks or so, the good fats in the kibbles are pretty much rancid. He mentioned certain breeds needing things like less copper so you'd want to use chicken liver more so than beef and just knowing your dog and where it came from so you can mimic what their ancestors ate. He also explains adding the wrong fat fats for a certain meat source can make the fat imbalance worse and always examine the linoleic acid first before adding in omega-3s...without sufficient LA (usually in beef) flaxseed/chia/salmon/and other omega-3 oils can do more harm.

He made a good point in that is adding veggies worse than farmed chicken that is too high in unhealthy fats and too low in healthy fats? I'm blessed in that I can feed a really good variety and quality so I don't plan to add any veggies yet. But if something changed and I had to feed factory-farmed I'd most definitely be supplementing. Kibble feeds are really in trouble if they just feed dry because synthetic vitamins keep animals from having deficiencies but they don't provide the cancer-fighting compounds found in veggies/fruits. I think veggies are more important for kibble feeds than raw, but I think if done correctly, you'd see benefits from veggies/fruits on both sides.

Just really expanding my knowledge of nutrition and I hope kibble feeders realize how important FRESH food is one day and everyone gives their canines at least SOME fresh food.


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## Sheltielover25 (Jan 18, 2011)

nickiklaus said:


> yes please learn from my mistake.. dont let your dogs diet be too high in fat / red meat


Just remember it's not just red meat that has the imbalance. Chicken is way, way too high in fat! for your pup I'd try to find rabbit, quine pig, and research other low-fat meats. Leaner hamburger is a big one the book focused on. I used to think dogs need fat, fat is good and never remove fat... never took the time to think about the fact our farmed animals have WAY more fat than a wild animal... At least we know now


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## naturalfeddogs (Jan 6, 2011)

Sheltielover25 said:


> Just remember it's not just red meat that has the imbalance. Chicken is way, way too high in fat! for your pup I'd try to find rabbit, quine pig, and research other low-fat meats. Leaner hamburger is a big one the book focused on. I used to think dogs need fat, fat is good and never remove fat... never took the time to think about the fact our farmed animals have WAY more fat than a wild animal... At least we know now


They do need fat, but like people there are good fats and bad fats. I give them all, but some in moderation.


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## Nana52 (Apr 28, 2012)

So maybe all this time I've been feeling bad about trimming so much fat from Kody's food (had pancreatitis several months ago, enzymes still out of normal range even though no signs/symptoms of being sick whatsoever), certain I was depriving the poor darling from the fat dogs need, I've maybe been doing to right thing after all? That would be so nice to know if true. Getting repeat blood work in the next week or 2, so hopefully it will be good (please, oh, please) and then I can maybe start adding small amount of fat back in. He's just got such dry itching skin that I'm thinking is due to not enough fat, or maybe it's some other nutritional deficit that I haven't figured out yet. Not to hijack the thread or anything. My best wishes go to the OP's dog with liver issues. Kody has liver issues also but due to being on phenobarbital ..... whole nother subject. Happy Thanksgiving all!


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## Sheltielover25 (Jan 18, 2011)

Yeah, I was mainly feeding beef/lamb/chicken/pork (quail too which is lean at least) which are all very fatty so I'm glad this was brought to my attention. I've also realized it's a little unrealistic to think I'm mocking their diet when I'm feeding animals that haven't lived a similar lifestyle to what they used to eat long ago. It shows up in many areas, some we know about like needing to add supplemental fish oil if you're not feeding free-range, but I think I will now extend it to unless I'm feeding wild prey, some we have yet to discover. I plan to always keep learning and I'm leaning towards as much whole prey as possible but I could learn something new and think another way if I felt it was correct... Best of luck to your pup again.


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## Sheltielover25 (Jan 18, 2011)

Nana52 said:


> So maybe all this time I've been feeling bad about trimming so much fat from Kody's food (had pancreatitis several months ago, enzymes still out of normal range even though no signs/symptoms of being sick whatsoever), certain I was depriving the poor darling from the fat dogs need, I've maybe been doing to right thing after all? That would be so nice to know if true. Getting repeat blood work in the next week or 2, so hopefully it will be good (please, oh, please) and then I can maybe start adding small amount of fat back in. He's just got such dry itching skin that I'm thinking is due to not enough fat, or maybe it's some other nutritional deficit that I haven't figured out yet. Not to hijack the thread or anything. My best wishes go to the OP's dog with liver issues. Kody has liver issues also but due to being on phenobarbital ..... whole nother subject. Happy Thanksgiving all!


One thought I read was that since the balance of omega-3s/omega-6s can affect the health of every cell and organ and since domesticated feed animals, the ones you're feeding your animal, don't contain the proper balance you should supplement and help balance the fats out for poultry/ruminant. He explains an unbalance can create symptoms similar to what you described. 

I personally do see that factory-farmed chickens, which are genetically modified to grow bigger and given antibiotics to grow bigger, are too fat. It makes since they'd be much too fatty and have way to little DHA because they have no need to think fast or move quickly. They're confined in a tiny place and made to just get really fat. So I plan to take that into consideration. Right now I get local chickens and they're considerably smaller and don't have a lot of fat so not sure I'd take that off....Also the beef liver and copper thing was kind of alarming so I def wouldn't want to just feed beef liver.

Best of luck with your pup also!


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## Nana52 (Apr 28, 2012)

Sheltielover25 said:


> One thought I read was that since the balance of omega-3s/omega-6s can affect the health of every cell and organ and since domesticated feed animals, the ones you're feeding your animal, don't contain the proper balance you should supplement and help balance the fats out for poultry/ruminant. He explains an unbalance can create symptoms similar to what you described.
> 
> I personally do see that factory-farmed chickens, which are genetically modified to grow bigger and given antibiotics to grow bigger, are too fat. It makes since they'd be much too fatty and have way to little DHA because they have no need to think fast or move quickly. They're confined in a tiny place and made to just get really fat. So I plan to take that into consideration. Right now I get local chickens and they're considerably smaller and don't have a lot of fat so not sure I'd take that off....Also the beef liver and copper thing was kind of alarming so I def wouldn't want to just feed beef liver.
> 
> Best of luck with your pup also!


I'm very interested in this book you've mentioned. I think I'll give it a look see. It's always been in the back of my head that, while I whole-heartedly believe "fresh and raw" is way better than processed kibble, obviously what most of us have access to (grocery store meats) and even grass fed whatever, has little in common with what wolves/wild dogs would be eating in a wild natural environment, and so I've always wondered about whether or not I'm providing all the vitamins/minerals, etc., they needed regardless of the variety of protein/organs/rmb I might be feeding. 

Thanks for sharing your thoughts and the book.


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## nickiklaus (Dec 10, 2011)

Sheltielover25 said:


> Just remember it's not just red meat that has the imbalance. *Chicken is way, way too high in fat*! for your pup I'd try to find rabbit, quine pig, and research other low-fat meats. Leaner hamburger is a big one the book focused on. I used to think dogs need fat, fat is good and never remove fat... never took the time to think about the fact our farmed animals have WAY more fat than a wild animal... At least we know now


*WHAT THE HECK??? *how can chicken be high in fat?? even if i remove the skin?? because my dog needs a low FAT diet and i am currently giving boiled chicken and rice? :S
Also people say lamb is high in fat can the fat (white part) be removed and it would be low fat? or even in the red meat there is fat?



Nana52 said:


> So maybe all this time I've been feeling bad about trimming so much fat from Kody's food (had pancreatitis several months ago, enzymes still out of normal range even though no signs/symptoms of being sick whatsoever), certain I was depriving the poor darling from the fat dogs need, I've maybe been doing to right thing after all? That would be so nice to know if true. Getting repeat blood work in the next week or 2, so hopefully it will be good (please, oh, please) and then I can maybe start adding small amount of fat back in. He's just got such dry itching skin that I'm thinking is due to not enough fat, or maybe it's some other nutritional deficit that I haven't figured out yet. Not to hijack the thread or anything. My best wishes go to the OP's dog with liver issues. Kody has liver issues also but due to being on phenobarbital ..... whole nother subject. Happy Thanksgiving all!


Hi so you think it is ok to do raw diet for dog with liver issues/pancreatis? do you give organs?


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## Sheltielover25 (Jan 18, 2011)

schism said:


> Why don't you start a thread specifically asking which meats are fatty and which ones are more lean... that might be very helpful given the issues you have been having.
> I have also heard that chicken is higher in fat.


I don't know about in Japan but if you LOOK at the chicken in the States you can see how fatty it is. I compare factory-farmed to free-range and it's insane. The factory-farmed chicken has tons more fat and also is just a lot bigger; most likely genetically modified to grow bigger. So yeah, chicken, esp factory-farmed, has a lot of fat...


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## nickiklaus (Dec 10, 2011)

Sheltielover25 said:


> I don't know about in Japan but if you LOOK at the chicken in the States you can see how fatty it is. I compare factory-farmed to free-range and it's insane. The factory-farmed chicken has tons more fat and also is just a lot bigger; most likely genetically modified to grow bigger. So yeah, chicken, esp factory-farmed, has a lot of fat...


Hmm is there nutrional info or something on your chicken package in supermarket? Here there isnt :s
Is there still fat if i remove the skin and its just chickenbreast? 
Thank you all for your advice and concern btw i appreciate it 


schism said:


> Why don't you start a thread specifically asking which meats are fatty and which ones are more lean... that might be very helpful given the issues you have been having.
> I have also heard that chicken is higher in fat.


Good idea


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## Nana52 (Apr 28, 2012)

nickiklaus said:


> Hi so you think it is ok to do raw diet for dog with liver issues/pancreatis? do you give organs?


I wouldn't go so far as to says it's "okay." I'm not a vet/nutrition expert or anything. Just passing along what I do for Kody who has had 1 pancreatitis "attack" and has liver issues related to the phenobarbital he takes for seizures (not liver disease per se). Yes, I do give organs, just liver and kidney at this time because that's all I've been able to get. This has all been discussed and is supported by my vet, whom I know from past experience would not hesitate to tell me if she thought I was doing something harmful/hurtful, while acknowledging that the final decision is always mine to make.

I would ask this, what exactly kind of "liver disease" has your dog been diagnosed with? High liver enzymes don't necessarily indicate "disease." There many reasons for liver enzyme elevation, not all necessarily a "fatal disease" situation. I found this article interesting - http://peterdobias.com/community/20...ed-liver-enzymes-and-liver-failure-in-dogs-2/ - where he says a raw-fed dog may have "naturally" higher values. Just something to think about. I'm certainly not saying there's no cause for concern, but that it may not be time to "jump off the deep end" until further information is known. I myself would be "pushing" for a definitive diagnose, not just "numbers are high so he had a disease.

That's just my uneducated 2 cents. Whatever the case, I obviously hope for the best for you and your furkid.


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