# New Orijen Formulas, Maybe



## monster'sdad (Jul 29, 2012)

I saw what looks to be the new "legumed up" Orijen labels. Copious amounts of chickpeas, lentils, red of course, green lentils, peas, pea fiber and lots of other stuff like starchy squash and pumpkin.

Be interesting how this gets rationalized.

No pun intended, but it looks like the bean counters finally took control.

:becky:


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## SaharaNight Boxers (Jun 28, 2011)

I saw they have a new formula and freeze dried formulas. I didn't see a whole bunch of legumes, but I also couldn't see all the ingredients clearly. As long as they still maintain the 80% meat part though, I would still recommend Orijen depending.


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## monster'sdad (Jul 29, 2012)

SaharaNight Boxers said:


> I saw they have a new formula and freeze dried formulas. I didn't see a whole bunch of legumes, but I also couldn't see all the ingredients clearly. As long as they still maintain the 80% meat part though, I would still recommend Orijen depending.


The 80% meat part includes the water. Don't fall for that old trick. It is the same as other companies saying the "the first ingredient is real chicken".

That 80% is 80 - 90% water from the slurry mix.

Last time I did the calculation the real meat protein from the fresh meat was 1.7lbs in the bag, or just 6%.


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## shellbell (Sep 24, 2011)

I saw the ingredients list posted on another forum I'm on. Looks like they are doing major ingredient splitting to make it seem like there is still a ton of meat. Like the first six or so ingredients are different types of meat.


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## monster'sdad (Jul 29, 2012)

shellbell said:


> I saw the ingredients list posted on another forum I'm on. Looks like they are doing major ingredient splitting to make it seem like there is still a ton of meat. Like the first six or so ingredients are different types of meat.


Its due to the ownership of this company. Given that the private equity firm is mandated to sell within 3 years from the investment, they are using less animal protein to save money. Legumes are grown extensively in Canada and are quite inexpensive. On top of this, the widespread use of lakefish by-products shows me they will do just about anything.

Makes Diamond look pretty good.


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## kaliberknl (May 9, 2012)

Would you please direct me to where you saw the changes coming? TIA!


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## DaViking (Sep 27, 2011)

kaliberknl said:


> Would you please direct me to where you saw the changes coming? TIA!


Ditto, anyone got a link? PM me if you don't want to post a link to another forum?


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## monster'sdad (Jul 29, 2012)

Big poo and lots of it...they even removed psyllium from the food. This will be a giant flop.









And what will happen is people will keep cutting back until stools firm and the dogs will not get the nutrients they need.

There isn't one source of insoluble fiber.


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## DaViking (Sep 27, 2011)

Is this formula supposed to replace the current adult formula or is it a new product line? The two big differences I can spot is the replacement of russet potatoes with red and green lentils and rendered chicken fat is completely removed. Peas, alfalfa and pea fiber was already in the old adult formula.


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## monster'sdad (Jul 29, 2012)

Dunno, there are chickpeas too. I can't imagine an active dog doing well on this food.

I also cannot understand why licorice root is in dog food. It is a toxic substance.

*"Licorice with glycyrrhizin may cause serious side effects. Too much glycyrrhizin causes a condition called pseudoaldosteronism, which can cause a person to become overly sensitive to a hormone in the adrenal cortex. This condition can lead to headaches, fatigue, high blood pressure, and even heart attacks. It may also cause water retention, which can lead to leg swelling and other problems.

Although the most dangerous effects mostly happen with high doses of licorice or glycyrrhizin, smaller amounts of licorice may cause side effects. Some people have muscle pain or numbness in the arms and legs. To be safe, ask your health care provider to monitor your use of licorice.

People with the following conditions should not take licorice:
•Heart failure
•Heart disease
•Hormone-sensitive cancers, such as breast, ovarian, uterine, or prostate cancer
•Fluid retention
•High blood pressure (hypertension)
•Diabetes
•Kidney disease
•Liver disease
•Low potassium (hypokalemia)
•Erecetile dysfunction

Pregnant or breastfeeding women should not take licorice.

Don't use any licorice product for longer than 4 - 6 weeks."*

Source: http://www.umm.edu/altmed/articles/licorice-000262.htm#ixzz2DFhM40Al 
Follow us: @UMMC on Twitter | MedCenter on Facebook


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## SaharaNight Boxers (Jun 28, 2011)

I don't know if you're a holistic person or not, but licorice root for dogs is actually used more commonly than you think. 

Licorice Root Soothes AND Heals - Whole Dog Journal Article
The Healing Power of Licorice | Animal Veterinary Center | AVMA Veterinarian

And DaViking, there is a new formula in the line and I believe this is the new formulas for all the Orijen foods.

And the best link I've found for the new product. I believe this is allowed. 
http://www.chazhound.com/forums/showthread.php?t=177261


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## monster'sdad (Jul 29, 2012)

SaharaNight Boxers said:


> I don't know if you're a holistic person or not, but licorice root for dogs is actually used more commonly than you think.
> 
> Licorice Root Soothes AND Heals - Whole Dog Journal Article
> The Healing Power of Licorice | Animal Veterinary Center | AVMA Veterinarian
> ...


There is a very good reason why these are called 'alternative' remedies: They don't work. 

One by one they eventually fall by the wayside. I am open-minded but not gullible. Licorice has been known as a toxin for hundreds of years. There have been numerous FDA warnings on this. And people worry about beet pulp and corn.

Tumeric is also one of these that people feed to dogs citing all the studies, well the studies 1) Use injected Curcuma not eaten and 2) Are not that impressive.


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## bett (Mar 15, 2012)

monster'sdad said:


> There is a very good reason why these are called 'alternative' remedies: They don't work.
> 
> One by one they eventually fall by the wayside. I am open-minded but not gullible. Licorice has been known as a toxin for hundreds of years. There have been numerous FDA warnings on this. And people worry about beet pulp and corn.
> 
> Tumeric is also one of these that people feed to dogs citing all the studies, well the studies 1) Use injected Curcuma not eaten and 2) Are not that impressive.


who says youre open minded?
you?


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## DaViking (Sep 27, 2011)

SaharaNight Boxers said:


> And DaViking, there is a new formula in the line and I believe this is the new formulas for all the Orijen foods.
> 
> And the best link I've found for the new product. I believe this is allowed.
> Orijen Freeze Dried Diets & Treats in November 2012 - pics! - Chazhound Dog Forum


These are all freeze dried formulas.


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## mheath0429 (Sep 8, 2012)

monster'sdad said:


> There is a very good reason why these are called 'alternative' remedies: They don't work.
> 
> One by one they eventually fall by the wayside. I am open-minded but not gullible. Licorice has been known as a toxin for hundreds of years. There have been numerous FDA warnings on this. And people worry about beet pulp and corn.
> 
> Tumeric is also one of these that people feed to dogs citing all the studies, well the studies 1) Use injected Curcuma not eaten and 2) Are not that impressive.



You really can't be that close minded to believe that alternative therapies don't work. I have a dog with a slipped disk and if it weren't for Boswellia, MSM, Glucosamine and shark Cartilage she would be in constant pain. Thank god I went to both a holistic and conventional vet - the conventional vet just wanted to pump her full of pain meds that would ultimately cause organ failure from long term use. 

You believe what you want, but my healthy, happy dog is enough proof for me.


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## monster'sdad (Jul 29, 2012)

mheath0429 said:


> You really can't be that close minded to believe that alternative therapies don't work. I have a dog with a slipped disk and if it weren't for Boswellia, MSM, Glucosamine and shark Cartilage she would be in constant pain. Thank god I went to both a holistic and conventional vet - the conventional vet just wanted to pump her full of pain meds that would ultimately cause organ failure from long term use.
> 
> You believe what you want, but my healthy, happy dog is enough proof for me.


You do realize that there is not one scientific study that shows glucosamine works, and dozens have been done all over the world. The best that can be said is that it does no harm.

MSM is another fraud.

However, I am open-minded enough to accept that Perna actually does work. I have read the studies that do confirm efficacy.


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## Sheltielover25 (Jan 18, 2011)

schism said:


> Shark cartilage *wince*
> -- Save Our Sharks - Shark Threats
> I'm sorry but its a sensitive topic for me as these stunning animals are hunted in excess all because one man claimed shark cartilage was beneficial (whether you are using it for cancer or not)... Government Action Curbs Shark Cartilage Claims


Not to go off-topic, but how can anyone cry for the sharks but be okay with breeders selling their dogs to people who feed factory-farmed meat(which is what kibble is) ??? Hunting a shark and killing it quickly is way more humane in my opinion than taking animal's babies away at birth, allow some to never see daylight, allowing them to be genetically modified to become so big they can't stand --- to name only a few factory-farmed horrors. I realize people can't afford better, but there is a holocaust going on here in the factory-farmed world and it needs to be challenged and people need to be getting angry over this. We shouldn't be forced into paying more for an animal who was taken care of! It's a sad world we live in when you pay a premium simply to receive an animal who has been loved and cared for. If you look at the nutrition values of free-range and factory-farmed eggs, where life begins, you see just how bad factory-farmed animals fair from the start and it's only worse.


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## Sheltielover25 (Jan 18, 2011)

monster'sdad said:


> You do realize that there is not one scientific study that shows glucosamine works, and dozens have been done all over the world. The best that can be said is that it does no harm.
> 
> MSM is another fraud.
> 
> However, I am open-minded enough to accept that Perna actually does work. I have read the studies that do confirm efficacy.


This age old debate on there being no studies gets so old. We live in a world where studies done only benefit people financally. We have a for-profit medical system and therefor they don't explore things that don't bring them lots of money. Anyone who follows alternative medicine knows this and anyone who follows alternative medicine has their own experiences and successes and don't need a bias study to prove anything. I don't now, nor plan to, use conventional western medicine. I have had great success with things found right on the earth, in the natural state, and had many negative reactions to man-made things coming from a lab made by a person who was brainwashed in medical school. I don't even argue about this, don't want to use it, don't. but being I work 55 hours a week using my hands and notice the days I forget my herbs, I know they work for my family and I don't have to worry about the negative toll pharmaceuticals take on your body... you know the ones listed inside the pamphlet! Or perhaps the steroid shot for they'd give me for my knee that would cause meningitis.


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## monster'sdad (Jul 29, 2012)

Sheltielover25 said:


> This age old debate on there being no studies gets so old. We live in a world where studies done only benefit people financally. We have a for-profit medical system and therefor they don't explore things that don't bring them lots of money. Anyone who follows alternative medicine knows this and anyone who follows alternative medicine has their own experiences and successes and don't need a bias study to prove anything. I don't now, nor plan to, use conventional western medicine. I have had great success with things found right on the earth, in the natural state, and had many negative reactions to man-made things coming from a lab made by a person who was brainwashed in medical school. I don't even argue about this, don't want to use it, don't. but being I work 55 hours a week using my hands and notice the days I forget my herbs, I know they work for my family and I don't have to worry about the negative toll pharmaceuticals take on your body... you know the ones listed inside the pamphlet! Or perhaps the steroid shot for they'd give me for my knee that would cause meningitis.


Oh there are studies, dozens, and they all conclude that glucosomine does nothing. You misunderstood my point.

I believe there is a lot of value to be found in nature when it comes to health solutions, but I want proof. And when the data is there I am objective.

I guess you missed the landmark study recently that showed organic produce was no healthier than conventially raised produce. That doesn't mean I don't respect organic farmers, it just means the health claims are wrong. I will gladly support small farmers just the way I support small pet food companies.


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## Sheltielover25 (Jan 18, 2011)

monster'sdad said:


> Oh there are studies, dozens, and they all conclude that glucosomine does nothing. You misunderstood my point.
> 
> I believe there is a lot of value to be found in nature when it comes to health solutions, but I want proof. And when the data is there I am objective.
> 
> I guess you missed the landmark study recently that showed organic produce was no healthier than conventially raised produce. That doesn't mean I don't respect organic farmers, it just means the health claims are wrong. I will gladly support small farmers just the way I support small pet food companies.


LOL Yes, because spraying pesticides and having to wear facial masks and full-body gear to tend to your crops has no bearing on your health. That's laughable. Considering when you compare the mineral content of conventional and organic you see the difference. Let me guess...factory-farmed is just as good as pasture-raised animals, too? There's a reason we're one of the only countries left to not ban GMO...

I can't believe someone is even willing to stand by conventional farming. Being we're the first US generation to not outlive the previous, I think it's rather telling how much we've messed up the food supply in this country. Notice you don't see that happening in other civilized nations. Silly to even stand by the use of chemicals in our food!


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## monster'sdad (Jul 29, 2012)

schism said:


> I'm almost 100% certain that no chicken is in danger of going extinct...? Correct me if I'm wrong.


And this person continues to talk about genetically modified meat chickens that simply do not exist..


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## Georgiapeach (Jan 24, 2011)

monster'sdad said:


> You do realize that there is not one scientific study that shows glucosamine works, and dozens have been done all over the world. The best that can be said is that it does no harm.
> 
> MSM is another fraud.)
> 
> However, I am open-minded enough to accept that Perna actually does work. I have read the studies that do confirm efficacy.


Hmmm...I have a minipoo who has grade 4 (the worst) luxating patellas (rear knee joints that stay slipped out of place). I give him a glucosamine/condroitin/msm supplement daily (Cosequin DS with MSM) and he's not lame in the least. My vet is amazed (she's not holistically inclined at all) and asked if I was doing anything special for Potsie. I explained that I feed a grain free kibble, a fish oil capsule, and this supplement daily. She said he should be very lame, and needing surgery with the severity of his condition. She told me to keep doing whatever I'm doing, b/c it's working. She also told me that she has another client with a dog with only a grade 2 case who's quite lame and needs surgery. The dog is eating the Royal Canin c#@@! the vet sells and gives no supplements. A fluke? I don't think so.


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## monster'sdad (Jul 29, 2012)

Georgiapeach said:


> Hmmm...I have a minipoo who has grade 4 (the worst) luxating patellas (rear knee joints that stay slipped out of place). I give him a glucosamine/condroitin/msm supplement daily (Cosequin DS with MSM) and he's not lame in the least. My vet is amazed (she's not holistically inclined at all) and asked if I was doing anything special for Potsie. I explained that I feed a grain free kibble, a fish oil capsule, and this supplement daily. She said he should be very lame, and needing surgery with the severity of his condition. She told me to keep doing whatever I'm doing, b/c it's working. She also told me that she has another client with a dog with only a grade 2 case who's quite lame and needs surgery. The dog is eating the Royal Canin c#@@! the vet sells and gives no supplements. A fluke? I don't think so.


I am glad your dog is doing well. However, it is not because of diet or supplements. The lack of efficacy of Glucosamine is not even questioned by researchers. All the studies show it does nothing. In some studies the placebo did better. The manufacturer of that supplement is well known for its own studies which simply do not jive with what scientists have found.

Perna on the other hand is effective for joint inflammation.

Just Google "glucosamine studies" you will find endless medical articles and full studies showing that it doesn't work.


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## DaViking (Sep 27, 2011)

Sheltielover25 said:


> LOL Yes, because spraying pesticides and having to wear facial masks and full-body gear to tend to your crops has no bearing on your health. That's laughable. Considering when you compare the mineral content of conventional and organic you see the difference. Let me guess...factory-farmed is just as good as pasture-raised animals, too? There's a reason we're one of the only countries left to not ban GMO...
> 
> I can't believe someone is even willing to stand by conventional farming. Being we're the first US generation to not outlive the previous, I think it's rather telling how much we've messed up the food supply in this country. Notice you don't see that happening in other civilized nations. Silly to even stand by the use of chemicals in our food!


1) You need to travel and learn more. Nowhere is the opportunity to produce and buy so called "ethical products" greater than in North America. Why? Simply because there is a viable market. The entire supply chain in every other reasonably developed country in the world is under great pressure to be as efficient as humanly possible in order to create value at all levels. Not that this isn't true for North America too but it is taken to the extreme in other parts of the world because the consumer is not willing or able to pay an arm and a leg just to eat supper and when the consumers also are fewer something gotta give. The market for "ethical" high cost products is simply not there most places. The chicken you buy in Europe is not any better or more ethical than the chicken you buy in North America, trust me. Do you think the chickens think like "thank god we live in Europe because here we only have a gazillion chicks per square foot, over there they are crazy and have a gazillion and one of us per square foot!"

2) All your grand goals for worldwide food production is very sweet but total insanity. Todays farming is a result of mankind's success. In order for your wishes for how we produce food to come true you would have to euthanize a cpl of billion people or wait for them to die. Simultaneously you would have to restrict who can have children and how many. Then, since you have banned highly efficient use of land for various crops and you want everyone to eat pasture fed meats you will have the luxury of living in a snow and ice free world because all the pasture fed cattle and other ruminants needed to feed your survivors have been farting and burping methane enough to increase global warming with at least 5 clicks Celsius. I could go on and on and on about every opinion and "goal" you have but there is no point. It's all 100% unrealistic, not ethical at all and actually very selfish. Going after industrial farming is futile. I understand and appreciate the enthusiasm to make things better but extreme activism never leads to anything getting done. Better get a Bachelor, Master or a phD in something agriculture, then get a job in the department of agriculture or similar and work on changing individual issues from within.


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## mheath0429 (Sep 8, 2012)

monster'sdad said:


> I am glad your dog is doing well. However, it is not because of diet or supplements. The lack of efficacy of Glucosamine is not even questioned by researchers. All the studies show it does nothing. In some studies the placebo did better. The manufacturer of that supplement is well known for its own studies which simply do not jive with what scientists have found.
> 
> Perna on the other hand is effective for joint inflammation.
> 
> Just Google "glucosamine studies" you will find endless medical articles and full studies showing that it doesn't work.


We aren't using it because a "study" said either way - we use it because we see that it works. 

I'm sure it's the placebo effect, ya know - because my dog is capable of that.


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## cheebamaster (Nov 23, 2012)

Interesting discussion,

I think it's important to be open-minded monsters'dad brings up a good point with glucosamine studies and it shouldn't be ignored just because of a couple success stories that could be completely unrelated. In fact, we should be open to that fact that maybe there is something else such as perna. 

On a different note, does anyone know about the "Acana" formulas? Aren't they owned by same company as Orijen? I would hate to see these changed


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## DaViking (Sep 27, 2011)

cheebamaster said:


> Interesting discussion,
> 
> I think it's important to be open-minded monsters'dad brings up a good point with glucosamine studies and it shouldn't be ignored just because of a couple success stories that could be completely unrelated. In fact, we should be open to that fact that maybe there is something else such as perna.
> 
> On a different note, does anyone know about the "Acana" formulas? Aren't they owned by same company as Orijen? I would hate to see these changed


Didn't Acana change a cpl of months ago? Or was that just rumors?


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## mheath0429 (Sep 8, 2012)

cheebamaster said:


> Interesting discussion,
> 
> I think it's important to be open-minded monsters'dad brings up a good point with glucosamine studies and it shouldn't be ignored just because of a couple success stories that could be completely unrelated. In fact, we should be open to that fact that maybe there is something else such as perna.
> 
> On a different note, does anyone know about the "Acana" formulas? Aren't they owned by same company as Orijen? I would hate to see these changed


he is only discussing half the truth - it is MIXED in reviews for different things. For Osteoarthritic issues it has been proven to work. I know, because I have read both sides of the story. Even the Mayo Clinic, for HUMANS, says it works for osteoarthritic issues. 

Acana changed package size, but I noticed little change in ingredients.


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## monster'sdad (Jul 29, 2012)

mheath0429 said:


> he is only discussing half the truth - it is MIXED in reviews for different things. For Osteoarthritic issues it has been proven to work. I know, because I have read both sides of the story. Even the Mayo Clinic, for HUMANS, says it works for osteoarthritic issues.
> 
> Acana changed package size, but I noticed little change in ingredients.


I don't believe the Mayo Clinic would agree with what you said. 

Glucosamine: Does it protect cartilage from osteoarthritis? - MayoClinic.com

I wish it was a wonder supplement but sadly it is completely useless.


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## imthemonkey (Aug 8, 2011)

monster'sdad said:


> I don't believe the Mayo Clinic would agree with what you said.
> 
> Glucosamine: Does it protect cartilage from osteoarthritis? - MayoClinic.com
> 
> I wish it was a wonder supplement but sadly it is completely useless.


You should pass on this information to your idol Rob Downey.


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## mheath0429 (Sep 8, 2012)

I can google too. Only difference is that I have a more current article.

Glucosamine: Evidence - MayoClinic.com


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## kaliberknl (May 9, 2012)

Nutramaxx labs produces the gold standard product. Articles and references can be found on their web page: Research Articles


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