# Why wolves don't live as long as domestic dogs on raw



## VaderAider (Jul 31, 2011)

So a friend and fellow animal lover who has tried to give me an argument for why not to feed her dogs raw prompted me to do some homework.

Her argument was that wolves which only eat raw average a lifespan of 4 years. This is close to true.

My rebuttal, which is fact based and therefore cannot be refuted.

Wolves in the wild have it a little harder.
Alpha males and females average 12 to 15 years on average (they eat the best, notice the trend??)
Lower ranking pack members have higher mortality rates, they eat last.
In captivity wolves average 17 years and zoos don't feed kibble.

Keep in mind the AVERAGE wolves lifespan is relatively low but here is why.
1 starvation
2 diminishing territories
3 humans, need I say more? 
4 predation
5 wild veterinarians went extinct 3200 years ago, and wolves quit receiving government mandated healthcare plans, so they don't receive help when they are wounded or maimed or have any other medical condition lol.

So for those naysayers that wanna go toe to toe with me on mortality rates associated raw feeding, read a book!


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## JayJayisme (Aug 2, 2009)

Sadly, some zoos do feed kibble. This topic has been discussed here quite a bit in the past. I don't disagree with you and think you might find some of those older discussions interesting. Do a search for something like "wolves zoo" and see what you get.


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## VaderAider (Jul 31, 2011)

Yeah, search fail! srry 

Got excited by what I found lol

Mods delete thread please!


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## JayJayisme (Aug 2, 2009)

I didn't mention the old discussions to diminish the value of this thread, it's a topic worth revisiting from time to time. You very well may have even introduced some points not previously mentioned. I just thought you might enjoy the older discussions on this topic.


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## CavePaws (Jan 25, 2011)

Ya. JayJay is right, the sad reality is that some of these beautiful, magnificent, social carnivores who get so much stimulation from hunting and ripping their kills apart have to eat kibble. 

BUT. I don't know man you try killing one of these things with a buddy, your bare hands, and some knives, AND have no access to a hospital...









Lol, I think you can expect an animals life span to be shortened by elements as harsh as this...Even if they are built for the task.



















Think about the risk of being wounded and having that wound become a festering infection. 
Never the less, there is no argument that these animals were not designed specifically to eat meat...Shortened life span because of natural harsh elements won't change their dentition or their digestive system.










Anyway. I love wolves. Forgive me for going picture crazy. But I could stare at them with awe, wonder, and adoration for hours.


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## RawFedDogs (Jun 16, 2008)

If a wild wolf gets even a normally mild injury, he's dead in a short time. Things like a broken leg, torn ACL, open wound can be and are death sentences to a wild wolf.


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## PDXdogmom (Jun 30, 2010)

VaderAider said:


> So a friend and fellow animal lover who has tried to give me an argument for why not to feed her dogs raw prompted me to do some homework.
> 
> Her argument was that wolves which only eat raw average a lifespan of 4 years. This is close to true.
> 
> ...


I wouldn't be so quick to assume that some in-depth probing on the internet or a few books will result in 100% accuracy or insight on any subject. There is always more to find out. And keep in mind, what might be a logical assumption to you given a certain set of information doesn't always equate to the same assumption by all other people studying the same field.


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## RaisingWolves (Mar 19, 2011)

CavePaws said:


> Anyway. I love wolves. Forgive me for going picture crazy. But I could stare at them with awe, wonder, and adoration for hours.


I love wolves too!!!


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## Northwoods10 (Nov 22, 2010)

Kind of reminds me of cave man vs. man now-a-days.

Would we be better off living like we did back in the "cave" days?? In some ways, yes. In some ways no. We probably ate a lot healthier, a lot more "species appropriate" instead of all this processed garbage. 

But we live a lot longer now because of healthcare, we're out of the elements, etc. 

Weigh the pros & cons. For those of us in this day and age who are able to omit or avoid the processed crap and live as naturally as possible, I think we have a huge advantage over those who do not. Same goes for our dogs. 

Kind of black and white to me...


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

:usa::usa::usa::usa::usa::usa:


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## VaderAider (Jul 31, 2011)

Ok so this blows my mind and pdx is right, but I would never accept logically that zoos feed wolves anything but raw, as if captivity wasn't bad enough....That's just wrong.....

Well played pdx, checks and balances, gotta love em!


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## SilverBeat (Jan 16, 2011)

One other thing, A wild rabbit's average lifespan is less than a year. This is mostly due to the act that so many are killed as babies. Maybe the same is true for wolves? In addition to the lower-ranking wolves eating worse/less and all that.


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## RCTRIPLEFRESH5 (Feb 11, 2010)

VaderAider said:


> So a friend and fellow animal lover who has tried to give me an argument for why not to feed her dogs raw prompted me to do some homework.
> 
> Her argument was that wolves which only eat raw average a lifespan of 4 years. This is close to true.
> 
> ...


if wolves in captivity are living until 17, why arent rawfed dogs(not bill ) he's over 17 ..way over


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## VaderAider (Jul 31, 2011)

RCTRIPLEFRESH5 said:


> if wolves in captivity are living until 17, why arent rawfed dogs(not bill ) he's over 17 ..way over


Not sure, want me to try and find out? Am I to assume since dogs aren't removed enough from wolves that they all theoretically have the same lifespan? 

I guess the data would be to extensive to determine, or not? But here is what I do know. The modern domestic dog is a manmade creature, meaning that selective breeding for genetic expressions has made some more prone to different health problems. Raw or not, so called pure bred dogs, which can only be a result of inbreeding at some point will have problems because of man, a creature known for "screwing with mother nature".

I could probably go further but I'd say in contrast to the number of domestic dogs, most are fed kibble, which doesn't help the average.

I'm a plant breeder of sorts and it isn't much different than animals when it comes to inbreeding, backcrossing and whatnot. So I've seen the ill effects of tampering with mother nature first hand.

Ps, your sig hits home, I lost our yorkee poo six months ago and it's a pain that I carry everyday... He was a child to me.


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## RaisingWolves (Mar 19, 2011)

Northwoods10 said:


> Kind of reminds me of cave man vs. man now-a-days.
> 
> Would we be better off living like we did back in the "cave" days?? In some ways, yes. In some ways no. We probably ate a lot healthier, a lot more "species appropriate" instead of all this processed garbage.
> 
> ...


I agree!
I view it from a quality of life vs longevity point of view. If I eat a diet filled with processed food, I feel like CRAP! Sure I can survive on it, but eating as close to nature makes me feel 100 times better. I have no doubt our dogs feel the same way.


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## hovad123 (Dec 7, 2010)

I show my dogs and I speak to a lot of breeders and I think that life expectancy issues (particularly with big dogs) are a result of poor breeding practices combined with crappy diet.

There are very large breed dogs in existence (tosa inu, boz shepherd) we are talking 180 lb + dogs that regularly make it to 13-14 years. The Japanese breeding protocols frown upon inbreeding and the shepherds which are still working dogs in turkey are not bred until they have proven themselves while working in some of the most brutal terrain for years. The boz shepherd males are often not bred until they are 10 years old.

Most breeding programs, even those that focus strongly on health, don't really focus on selecting long lived dogs. Most people can't wait 10 years to breed for a number of reasons. 

There are wolves from some valley in Canada (i think the mackenzie valley maybe) that are 150 lbs + and they live to be 15-17 in captivity so it's not size per se or even that we tinkered with dogs it's that you can't consistently get a trait ie longevity unless you focus is solely on that.

I am OBSESSED with trying to find ways to make my dogs live longer (anyone that knows of anything that really works let me know) and I don't know if raw feeding will make a huge difference but when I look at their overall condition as compared to non raw fed dogs I see a huge difference in the shiny coat, fresh breathe, non stinky coat


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

:usa::usa::usa::usa::usa:


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## Dog Walker (Dec 23, 2010)

Reading this reminded me, we have a wolf center not too far away. When I was working a camp they came in and talked to us. They feed mostly kibble because Purina (local company) donates a "special" blend to them. However the department of conservation donates the road kill deer carcasses to the center as well. I went looking for some statistics but could only find some from 2009:

Our Keepers worked hard in 2009!
they fed out...
~over 40,000lbs of dry chow
~520 chicks and rats
~76 deer carcasses
~chopped over 800lbs of produce

The produce was mostly for Maned wolves, whome are from south america and apparently love fresh fruit. But the amount of dry food compared to fresh meat is so out of wack. I understand they only survive on donations, so I surely hope that chow is mainly meat, but seeing as it is purina, I highly doubt it is.


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## Steph (Jun 24, 2011)

Awesome thread! I will use this in my arguments with people who tell me raw is not good for my dogs.


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## Scarlett_O' (May 19, 2011)

GAAA...Jesse and I went to one of the local zoos today, and met up with Jesse and Nick(Dude and Buck's Mom, and dad) and we watched the wolves there for about 45 minutes...we got excited when we noticed there where REAL bones scattered around their "feeding" area...then the zoo crew came out and picked up their scat...and brought out ropes with some weird spray....and a Tupperware of kibble!!!  We were all 4 SOOO disgusted!!!!UGH!! Our, combined, 5 dogs eat better then those poor wolves who are locked up RIGHT next to a group of elk!!!! :frown: 

I thought of this thread RIGHT off!!!


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## Tobi (Mar 18, 2011)

Scarlett_O' said:


> GAAA...Jesse and I went to one of the local zoos today, and met up with Jesse and Nick(Dude and Buck's Mom, and dad) and we watched the wolves there for about 45 minutes...we got excited when we noticed there where REAL bones scattered around their "feeding" area...then the zoo crew came out and picked up their scat...and brought out ropes with some weird spray....and a Tupperware of kibble!!!  We were all 4 SOOO disgusted!!!!UGH!! Our, combined, 5 dogs eat better then those poor wolves who are locked up RIGHT next to a group of elk!!!! :frown:
> 
> I thought of this thread RIGHT off!!!


\

How sad 

It really bothers me how people think they know best


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## Dude and Bucks Mamma (May 14, 2011)

Yea... Sadly Abi and I watched the keepers dump out kibble for the wolves at the Woodland Park Zoo yesterday. They DO appear to get RMBs as well, but I have to question the intelligence of feeding the wolves kibble. We also wondered what the bears eat. I guessed processed bear food...


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

:usa::usa::usa::usa::usa::usa::usa:


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## Scarlett_O' (May 19, 2011)

OK....Im SOOOOO PO'ed about this!! :sad:

I just got an email back from Northwest Trek

Here is the F&*%$*# B#))$#*! of an email that I got from them!

" Thanks for your interest. We feed our animals a variety of diets depending on their natural food. For example:
Canines (wolves, fox, coyote): dry science diet dog chow, wet canine meat diet, and bones
Cats (cougar, lynx, bobcat): wet feline diet, whole dead animals (chicken, rat, mouse, quail), bones
Mustelids (wolverine, fisher, badger, otter, skunk): wet feline diet, dry science diet mature cat chow, whole dead animals, bones fish (otter), fruits and vegetables (skunks)
Rodents (beaver, porcupine): rodent chow, wild herbivore chow, fruits and vegetables
Bears: bear chow, fruits and vegetables, fish , bones
Raptors (eagles and owls): wet bird of prey meat diet, whole dead animals
Hoofstock (moose, elk, goat, sheep, deer): special pelleted herbivore chow, hay
You also might enjoy looking at the websites: AZA.org and *mazuri.com* for more information about zoos and animal diets. "

I find the on bold *interesting*...however its all cooked bullskat.....UGH!! GRRRRRR


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## PDXdogmom (Jun 30, 2010)

Well that's certainly disappointing! It really does seem that Science Diet has the market on vets' offices and institutional facilities.


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## Scarlett_O' (May 19, 2011)

PDXdogmom said:


> Well that's certainly disappointing! It really does seem that Science Diet has the market on vets' offices and institutional facilities.


YEP! And NWTrek is one of the coolest places around...I remember going there MULTIPLE times as a kid, because you can drive(or be driven)around to see all of the Free Range animals!!


EDIT TO ADD:

I just sent this in reply:
"Thank you for the email back, but Ive got to ask....what in Science Diet(Or ANY processed foods) is species appropriate and/or mimics their natural foods?? I ask because there is no way that I would feed any of my pet carnivores(3 dogs and 2 cats) Science Diet, as it is so low quality, so I wonder why to give it to wild animals?"


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

:usa::usa::usa::usa::usa:


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## Scarlett_O' (May 19, 2011)

magicre said:


> northwest trek? i am really disappointed.
> 
> i will never go there again.


YEP!:frown:

And now, neither will I!!!:sad:


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## RCTRIPLEFRESH5 (Feb 11, 2010)

hovad123 said:


> I show my dogs and I speak to a lot of breeders and I think that life expectancy issues (particularly with big dogs) are a result of poor breeding practices combined with crappy diet.
> 
> There are very large breed dogs in existence (tosa inu, boz shepherd) we are talking 180 lb + dogs that regularly make it to 13-14 years.  The Japanese breeding protocols frown upon inbreeding and the shepherds which are still working dogs in turkey are not bred until they have proven themselves while working in some of the most brutal terrain for years. The boz shepherd males are often not bred until they are 10 years old.
> 
> ...


japanese tosas aren't that big around the heights and weights of Labradors
*Height: around 24 (60 cm.)*
Weight 83-200 pounds (37½-90½ kg.)
The large height and weight ranges in the Tosa breed is due to their background in dog fighting; they are grouped into light, middle and heavyweight classes. The average weight for the USA Tosas are: males 120-170 pounds (54-77 kg.), females 90-140 pounds. *In Japan the Tosa weighs about 66-88 pounds (30-40 kg.) - smaller than those bred in the West..*


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## RCTRIPLEFRESH5 (Feb 11, 2010)

Scarlett_O' said:


> OK....Im SOOOOO PO'ed about this!! :sad:
> 
> I just got an email back from Northwest Trek
> 
> ...


it soudns lie they feed some raw foods what is bear chows


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## Scarlett_O' (May 19, 2011)

RCTRIPLEFRESH5 said:


> it soudns lie they feed some raw foods


They feed "dry science diet dog chow, wet canine meat diet, and bones" TO WILD Canines (wolves, fox, coyote)

That is a bunch of F#@&*%$ rubbish!



> what is bear chows


You would have to ask them exactly what the rubbish is that they are given them....but Im ASSUMING BY READING that they mean from rubbish food the website she provided: Mazuri Home


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## Dude and Bucks Mamma (May 14, 2011)

Scarlett_O' said:


> GAAA...Jesse and I went to one of the local zoos today, and met up with Jesse and Nick(Dude and Buck's Mom, and dad) and we watched the wolves there for about 45 minutes...we got excited when we noticed there where REAL bones scattered around their "feeding" area...then the zoo crew came out and picked up their scat...and brought out ropes with some weird spray....and a Tupperware of kibble!!!  We were all 4 SOOO disgusted!!!!UGH!! Our, combined, 5 dogs eat better then those poor wolves who are locked up RIGHT next to a group of elk!!!! :frown:
> 
> I thought of this thread RIGHT off!!!


I thought it was a tad bit cruel to keep them right next to something as delicious as elk. They could see them and everything. Talk about dulling the instincts. Pouring kibble on a rock... I thought zoos were all about replicating life in the wild.


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## Scarlett_O' (May 19, 2011)

I just got this BS of an answer from NWT!!

"Science Diet is generally considered to be a superior product among most zoo, nutrition, and veterinary professionals, so we differ with you there. Our diets are nutritionally balanced while still offering as much variety as possible to insure the overall best health of our animals. Our professional staff has a great depth of experience at our facility, at numerous other accredited zoos in the country, and with numerous established nutrition scientists. We are comfortable with our choices and how we determine them."


GAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!!!!

Im soooo POed right now........Off to see if we have any JD to calm me down!!!


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## PDXdogmom (Jun 30, 2010)

Well that was a very sad and quite defensive response from NWT. Either they are spouting "the company line" since they know Science Diet isn't a great choice; or they're extremely ignorant.


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

:usa::usa::usa::usa::usa::usa:


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## Dude and Bucks Mamma (May 14, 2011)

And you can guarantee that those who feed have never actually read the ingredients on the back of the bag. If they did, they would likely quit their job in disgust.


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## Cliffdog (Dec 30, 2010)

I feed Mazuri rat food... I had no idea they were supporting such garbage...


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