# Royal Canin Benefits



## yofita (Aug 6, 2013)

The mission has always been to Royal Canin Health Nutrition . Characterized by a precise balance of over 50 nutrients (proteins, lipids , carbohydrates, amino acids , fatty acids , minerals , vitamins and trace elements) . The formulation of royal canin diets correspond to a complex puzzle whose construction ensures a constant nutritional formula , respecting the specific and unique needs of cats and dogs.

This is the only strictly scientific method , as it places the animal in the center of the development process: in fact, the ingredients used are selected by the quality of the nutrients it provides and for its nutritional benefits.

This is the reason why I always feed my dogs with royal canin. Quality is priceless


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## Dr Dolittle (Aug 2, 2013)

yofita said:


> The mission has always been to Royal Canin Health Nutrition . Characterized by a precise balance of over 50 nutrients (proteins, lipids , carbohydrates, amino acids , fatty acids , minerals , vitamins and trace elements) . The formulation of royal canin diets correspond to a complex puzzle whose construction ensures a constant nutritional formula , respecting the specific and unique needs of cats and dogs.
> 
> This is the only strictly scientific method , as it places the animal in the center of the development process: in fact, the ingredients used are selected by the quality of the nutrients it provides and for its nutritional benefits.
> 
> This is the reason why I always feed my dogs with royal canin. Quality is priceless


hmmm....Not so much.


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## Unosmom (May 3, 2009)

yeah sure, I especially like their campaign about adding feathers to the food for fiber.. Beware of Royal Canin Anallergenic Dog Foods with Feather Meal
they seem to target gullible audience who think a food should be catered to each specific breed, even though dog's digestive tracts are identical. To me, its just an overpriced bag of corn and byproducts.


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## stbernardlover (Jun 24, 2013)

Dr Dolittle said:


> hmmm....Not so much.


Dr. Dolitte, 

I thought you were all for foods with a precise balance of nutrients and backed by science?


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## Dr Dolittle (Aug 2, 2013)

stbernardlover said:


> Dr. Dolitte,
> 
> I thought you were all for foods with a precise balance of nutrients and backed by science?


I am. it is all the matters. RC has some of the most excessive mineral levels out there! Some even higher than grocery foods I've looked at. It really makes you wonder when you see grocery foods that we all spent years bashing, having better nutrient levels. After all these years of watching companies, I think I see a pattern that some companies really are committed to making the best diets based on the available research(which is not gospel of course) and some companies let their agenda to sell food get the best of them. Nutritionists don't run these companies. the marketing and sales guys do. So true in people food as well!


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## Dr Dolittle (Aug 2, 2013)

Unosmom said:


> yeah sure, I especially like their campaign about adding feathers to the food for fiber.. Beware of Royal Canin Anallergenic Dog Foods with Feather Meal
> they seem to target gullible audience who think a food should be catered to each specific breed, even though dog's digestive tracts are identical. To me, its just an overpriced bag of corn and byproducts.


Well, the breed specific stuff is a bunch of baloney but their chicken feather diet is totally misrepresented by that vet that works with mercola. is wonderful and our family' seating habits are based on his recommendations but the vet he hired for pet health is terrible. She has absolutely no idea what she is talking about. I was so disappointed when I read some of her stuff. She must go to did Food Advisor and other websites to do her "research." The Anallergenic diet is a waste of time since RC's own HP diet is better and less money, so you are correct it isn't worth the money but it is a specific Hydrolyzed diet for tough derm cases and shouldn't be compared to normal food. I do find the chicken feather technology somewhat suspect to be honest but I am certain RC is providing all the amino acids needed. But talk about by-products! LOL!


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## kevin bradley (Aug 9, 2009)

Dr D,

Can you let us know what foods have favorable vitamin/mineral, etc... profiles? 

I'm really curious(seriously, really) which foods do this right.


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## MarieLovesChis (Mar 25, 2014)

I'm not a fan of those breed specific diets but at the same time I can see where they're coming from. A lot of dogs have breed specific digestive issues. German Shepherds, Bull Dogs, and Boxers come to mind. Trying to formulate a food to help with the specific issues these breeds tend to have is understandable.


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## stbernardlover (Jun 24, 2013)

kevin bradley said:


> Dr D,
> 
> Can you let us know what foods have favorable vitamin/mineral, etc... profiles?
> 
> I'm really curious(seriously, really) which foods do this right.



I know you asked Dr. Dolittle, but in my opinion the Innova Senior (Large Breed for nutrients listed below) formulas have the most impressive nutrient levels. Not to mention on their website they list the full nutrient analysis listing everything from phenylalanine to arachidonic acid to nitrogen-free extract. To me, it says something when a company is willing to release full nutrient deck. The sodium is low (below .2%) and the Vitamin E and C are very high (roughly 1,200IU/kg and 1,900mg/kg, respectively). This is wayyyy above any kibble I have ever seen. Also, the overall ash is roughly 6% with calcium and phosphorus levels also much lower than most "premium foods."

Fromm's is also a good one with low mineral levels, however their vitamin E is low and vitamin C as far as I can remember is basically nonexistent.


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## MollyWoppy (Mar 19, 2010)

Don't dogs make their own Vit C? No need for supplementation unless they are very ill?


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## Dr Dolittle (Aug 2, 2013)

stbernardlover said:


> I know you asked Dr. Dolittle, but in my opinion the Innova Senior (Large Breed for nutrients listed below) formulas have the most impressive nutrient levels. Not to mention on their website they list the full nutrient analysis listing everything from phenylalanine to arachidonic acid to nitrogen-free extract. To me, it says something when a company is willing to release full nutrient deck. The sodium is low (below .2%) and the Vitamin E and C are very high (roughly 1,200IU/kg and 1,900mg/kg, respectively). This is wayyyy above any kibble I have ever seen. Also, the overall ash is roughly 6% with calcium and phosphorus levels also much lower than most "premium foods."
> 
> Fromm's is also a good one with low mineral levels, however their vitamin E is low and vitamin C as far as I can remember is basically nonexistent.


Hey Stbernardlover, great website! It should be law that all foods have to list that way. That large breed senior also has therapeutic levels of L Carnitine, very rare in fog foods. And the sodium is nice and low. My experience is the protein is still way high for a senior dog but as you said, the phosphorus from the protein is lower than most foods. What is the best part of the website is you can look at that food, and though they call it senior it would feed it to any of my adults! but it allows you to go to the fancier diets they make! which I am assuming cost lots more! and you find embarrassing low Vit E levels, entirely inappropriate phosphorus levels, etc! It is the perfect illustration of evaluating based on nutrients that the dog can benefit from vs appealing ingredients and marketing that actually deliver inferior nutrients. And it is a good illustration that a food company can make a really great diet and a really lousy one! Not all companies fall into that category but many do!


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## Dr Dolittle (Aug 2, 2013)

MollyWoppy said:


> Don't dogs make their own Vit C? No need for supplementation unless they are very ill?


Molly, They do produce their own but when you are supplementing higher levels of Vit E as an antioxidant the higher level of C is to help Vit E regenerate and keep killing free radicals. So the higher Vit C supports the Vit E. Dogs get a natural amt of L Carnitine in the meat they eat but we have to supplement it to at least 300 Mg/kg to get it therapeutic to help metabolize fat and maintain lean muscle. In a sillier example, I love dark chocolate so defend eating it for the antioxidants! LOL! Obviosly not an amt that is doing what a good supplement provides! But I say it anyway!


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## stbernardlover (Jun 24, 2013)

Dr Dolittle said:


> Hey Stbernardlover, great website! It should be law that all foods have to list that way. That large breed senior also has therapeutic levels of L Carnitine, very rare in fog foods. And the sodium is nice and low. My experience is the protein is still way high for a senior dog but as you said, the phosphorus from the protein is lower than most foods. What is the best part of the website is you can look at that food, and though they call it senior it would feed it to any of my adults! but it allows you to go to the fancier diets they make! which I am assuming cost lots more! and you find embarrassing low Vit E levels, entirely inappropriate phosphorus levels, etc! It is the perfect illustration of evaluating based on nutrients that the dog can benefit from vs appealing ingredients and marketing that actually deliver inferior nutrients. And it is a good illustration that a food company can make a really great diet and a really lousy one! Not all companies fall into that category but many do!


I definitely agree with the protein! But I guess that's why they say no dog food is perfect :thumb:


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## MarieLovesChis (Mar 25, 2014)

Eh I'd hardly consider 26% protein too high for a senior.


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## Dr Dolittle (Aug 2, 2013)

MarieLovesChis said:


> Eh I'd hardly consider 26% protein too high for a senior.


Marie, that' sonny because we are so accustomed to high protein-it is in marketing pet food over the last few years. Most puppy foods can be formulated at 26% protein. I prefer around 18% with both meat and egg protein, if I were feeding a senior. the idea is to give them all the amino acids they need but be a bit easier on the tired kidneys. All these high protein are not causing kidney disease but they are not good for the many that will develop kidney disease, when there is not one stitch of evidence that feeding a high protein food to a dog has any known benefit.


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## MarieLovesChis (Mar 25, 2014)

Dr Dolittle said:


> Marie, that' sonny because we are so accustomed to high protein-it is in marketing pet food over the last few years. Most puppy foods can be formulated at 26% protein. I prefer around 18% with both meat and egg protein, if I were feeding a senior. the idea is to give them all the amino acids they need but be a bit easier on the tired kidneys. All these high protein are not causing kidney disease but they are not good for the many that will develop kidney disease, when there is not one stitch of evidence that feeding a high protein food to a dog has any known benefit.


I agree that high protein isn't exactly a necessity, but I personally wouldn't feel comfortable feeding the very minimum (if I remember, 18% is the recommended minimum by the AAFCO). I also know quite a lot of dogs that do just fine on a medium protein percentage with kidney disease. I don't think there's any evidence to support feeding a high protein diet effects kidneys either way. I don't know, it's not one of my subjects I research on a lot.

I keep my dogs dry meals at around 28-30% protein. That in my opinion is a medium/moderate amount. 35%+ is high to me. Anything below 26% is pretty low. Her wet foods obviously have high protein. Personally, my dog doesn't do very well on extremely low protein and she isn't really young.

Different dogs do better on different protein percentages, that's about the only thing I'm sure of lol. I've learned a hell of a lot from your posts as a lurker. It's actually thanks to you that I realized I should stop stressing over ingredients and read the nutrient profile. I realized a lot of the "high quality" foods I was feeding are expensive crap. But protein is one thing I'll just have to agree to disagree on


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## Dr Dolittle (Aug 2, 2013)

MarieLovesChis said:


> I agree that high protein isn't exactly a necessity, but I personally wouldn't feel comfortable feeding the very minimum (if I remember, 18% is the recommended minimum by the AAFCO). I also know quite a lot of dogs that do just fine on a medium protein percentage with kidney disease. I don't think there's any evidence to support feeding a high protein diet effects kidneys either way. I don't know, it's not one of my subjects I research on a lot.
> 
> I keep my dogs dry meals at around 28-30% protein. That in my opinion is a medium/moderate amount. 35%+ is high to me. Anything below 26% is pretty low. Her wet foods obviously have high protein. Personally, my dog doesn't do very well on extremely low protein and she isn't really young.
> 
> Different dogs do better on different protein percentages, that's about the only thing I'm sure of lol. I've learned a hell of a lot from your posts as a lurker. It's actually thanks to you that I realized I should stop stressing over ingredients and read the nutrient profile. I realized a lot of the "high quality" foods I was feeding are expensive crap. But protein is one thing I'll just have to agree to disagree on


Marie, Glad I have helped your stress level concerning ingredients in those expensive crap foods! LOL! I have that effect on people. If I could just figure out a way to make money at it!!! As far as protein we don't disagree too much. A healthy dog can handle protein. I checked a few puppy foods I trust and levels were from 27% to 29% protein. Now remember these are proven diets and by law cannot be deficient in any nutrient. So if growing puppies do well on those levels for actual growth and development, the levels would be lower for adults. You are right. As far as I know there is no study showing high protein causes any kidney issues, nevermind full blown renal failure. AAFCO has no recommendations for senior dogs, just adult. I agree with you that feeding 35%+ is based on nothing but the latest consumer demand that has been developed by pet food marketers. There is no scientific basis whatsoever. The idea of lowering protein in seniors and even more so, improving the quality of the protein source (phosphorus, calcium) is to reduse the workload of the kidneys since after the age of 7 the risk of early undetected renal disease is so common. About 75% of kidney function is gone before clinical signs are evident. Almost 60% is gone before blood tests or even a urinalysis would indicate trouble. So lower protein levels and a change in protein sources for seniors is more a precaution and risk reduction based on decades of watching dogs and cats with renal issues and how diet can improve them, not based on the myth that high protein CAUSES kidney issues. The next time I have a senior dog which is a few years away, I will go with about 18% with alot of egg protein, which is miuch easier on the kidneys. Delilah, my Berner, lived to be a month short of 13 years old, and I do attribute diet to that. You mentioned dogs with renal failure.....they should definitely be on a vet diet designed specifically for the disease, with much more than just a protein adjustment!
BTW your little guy is adorable! God Bless!


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## MarieLovesChis (Mar 25, 2014)

You say egg protein is easier on the kidneys.. are you saying meat protein is hard on the kidneys? I always thought it was plant protein that was an issue.

I'm asking because as you said, as the dog ages the risk of kidney problems tends to rise. My girl is 6.5 years old.. not too far from 7 and I feed her a food with 30% protein which predominantly comes from meat/fish/egg.

And thank you for the compliment on my Chi  She truly is my baby and I'm hoping she still has plenty of years left in her.


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## Dr Dolittle (Aug 2, 2013)

MarieLovesChis said:


> You say egg protein is easier on the kidneys.. are you saying meat protein is hard on the kidneys? I always thought it was plant protein that was an issue.
> 
> I'm asking because as you said, as the dog ages the risk of kidney problems tends to rise. My girl is 6.5 years old.. not too far from 7 and I feed her a food with 30% protein which predominantly comes from meat/fish/egg.
> 
> And thank you for the compliment on my Chi  She truly is my baby and I'm hoping she still has plenty of years left in her.


When the kidneys are compromised by age/disease the nitrogen broken down by meat protein builds up in the blood, causing metabolic acidosis, causing muscle wasting and the dog feeling I'll. Non meat protein sources like egg, corn gluten meal, etc are combined to give the dog, or cat, all the amino acids they need but reduce the workload on the kidneys left and reduce the nitrogen waste so it lowers in the blood. muscle wasting stops, animal feels better, kidneys last longer, sometimes years. When you understand the mechanism you can understand how high protein is no issue for a pair of healthy kidneys, but can have a terrible effect on impaired ones. Your girl is tiny so 7 may not be as old as a big dog. probably 9 or 10 would be where age related disease risk occurs. No real set number. they are all different.


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## AngelaPrimanti (Feb 24, 2014)

MarieLovesChis said:


> You say egg protein is easier on the kidneys.. are you saying meat protein is hard on the kidneys? I always thought it was plant protein that was an issue.
> 
> I'm asking because as you said, as the dog ages the risk of kidney problems tends to rise. My girl is 6.5 years old.. not too far from 7 and I feed her a food with 30% protein which predominantly comes from meat/fish/egg.
> 
> And thank you for the compliment on my Chi  She truly is my baby and I'm hoping she still has plenty of years left in her.


This link has references to studies on this topic. The "common wisdom" about kidney disease and protein has been shown to be wrong over and over. If someone wants to feed a food with 50% or 60% starch like was recommended they can go right ahead. I would never. You are correct to use a food with 30% protein on an aging dog.

DogAware.com Kidney Disease: Is a Low-Protein Diet Desirable or Necessary?


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## MarieLovesChis (Mar 25, 2014)

AngelaPrimanti said:


> This link has references to studies on this topic. The "common wisdom" about kidney disease and protein has been shown to be wrong over and over. If someone wants to feed a food with 50% or 60% starch like was recommended they can go right ahead. I would never. You are correct to use a food with 30% protein on an aging dog.
> 
> DogAware.com Kidney Disease: Is a Low-Protein Diet Desirable or Necessary?


Thanks for posting that. I remember someone else posting that a while back on another forum and couldn't remember the link.


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## Dr Dolittle (Aug 2, 2013)

AngelaPrimanti said:


> This link has references to studies on this topic. The "common wisdom" about kidney disease and protein has been shown to be wrong over and over. If someone wants to feed a food with 50% or 60% starch like was recommended they can go right ahead. I would never. You are correct to use a food with 30% protein on an aging dog.
> 
> DogAware.com Kidney Disease: Is a Low-Protein Diet Desirable or Necessary?


LOL! Wow, That's a whole lotta info! I glanced down all of them And I have to admit since I know soe of those folks I really shouldn't and can't comment except to say every time it was said that protein does not cause renal failure, that is agreed by everyone! That is a straw man argument. It was believed decades ago but now we know a higher quality protein, namely controlling phosphorus is the key. And though the debate was if we need to lower protein any phosphorus if you read between the lines, almost all of them are discussing WHEN to lower the phosphorus or the protein. Again, healthy kidneys, no issue. The debate is diseased kidneys. And again, I can't mention names but some of those researchers may say one thing! yet their diets say something else! I wish I could say all research is unbiased and truthful but I have sadly learned politics plays into a lot of it. I can just say I have seen so many dogs and cats improve and live quite a long time on vet renal diets, all brands. Kinda hard to argue with such great results.


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## Dr Dolittle (Aug 2, 2013)

Had breakfast with a vet and commented on this thread. Her response was pretty simple. She said she recommends blood work to all her clients for pets over 7 years old and has for years. With all those early detection tests she says she finds dogs and cats in early renal insufficiency and has many times over the years been able to change the pet's food and find the blood values actually normalize. She asked me to explain that. LOL! I told her I agreed with her! She said the researchers can continue to debate, and it's good they do, but for her the evidence has convinced her to continue with the common wisdom. I guess we all have to do what we feel is best. But her point of getting blood work really is key. Then you can find which diet will manage those elevated values. God Bless!


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## PDXdogmom (Jun 30, 2010)

Dr Dolittle said:


> LOL! Wow, That's a whole lotta info! I glanced down all of them And I have to admit since I know soe of those folks I really shouldn't and can't comment except to say every time it was said that protein does not cause renal failure, that is agreed by everyone! That is a straw man argument. It was believed decades ago but *now we know a higher quality protein, namely controlling phosphorus is the key.* And though the debate was if we need to lower protein any phosphorus if you read between the lines, almost all of them are discussing WHEN to lower the phosphorus or the protein. Again, healthy kidneys, no issue. The debate is diseased kidneys. And again, I can't mention names but some of those researchers may say one thing! yet their diets say something else! I wish I could say all research is unbiased and truthful but I have sadly learned politics plays into a lot of it. I can just say I have seen so many dogs and cats improve and live quite a long time on vet renal diets, all brands. Kinda hard to argue with such great results.


Very interesting discussion. What I bolded is what strikes me as the key point.


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## Dr Dolittle (Aug 2, 2013)

PDXdogmom said:


> Very interesting discussion. What I bolded is what strikes me as the key point.


And you are right. A paper on CRF for vets will mention phosphorus a lot, but may not even mention protein. The fact is that the phosphorus is found in the protein sources, usually as excess bone, thus the discussion on quality. So quality means purity of the meat source, but in full blown CRF the quality means using non-nitrogen producing protein sources like egg or corn gluten meal. The latter may not sound like high quality but it is the protein portion of the corn and is highly digestible and easy on kidneys and is even used in feline renal diets(true carnivores) so the word quality doen,t mean fresh caught salmon or happy free range chickens or exotic whatever. Come to think of it, using the word quality in the context of how it serves the intended purpose would be a good way of evaluating ingredients. What is the purpose and how well does that ingredient deliver? That would expose real chicken in some foods which sounds great but my not deliver as high an amino acid profile and low phosphorus as a food with chicken by product meal. Which is more appealing but which one is of higher quality based on it's purpose? Hmm? I am thinking too hard today!


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## stbernardlover (Jun 24, 2013)

Dr Dolittle said:


> And you are right. A paper on CRF for vets will mention phosphorus a lot, but may not even mention protein. The fact is that the phosphorus is found in the protein sources, usually as excess bone, thus the discussion on quality. So quality means purity of the meat source, but in full blown CRF the quality means using non-nitrogen producing protein sources like egg or corn gluten meal. The latter may not sound like high quality but it is the protein portion of the corn and is highly digestible and easy on kidneys and is even used in feline renal diets(true carnivores) so the word quality doen,t mean fresh caught salmon or happy free range chickens or exotic whatever. Come to think of it, using the word quality in the context of how it serves the intended purpose would be a good way of evaluating ingredients. What is the purpose and how well does that ingredient deliver? That would expose real chicken in some foods which sounds great but my not deliver as high an amino acid profile and low phosphorus as a food with chicken by product meal. Which is more appealing but which one is of higher quality based on it's purpose? Hmm? I am thinking too hard today!


I may have made this up in my head, but I swear I read somewhere that a safe level of phosphorus should be between 0.4-0.8%? Does that sound right?


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## zootv (Mar 8, 2014)

Dr Dolittle said:


> She said she recommends blood work to all her clients for pets over 7 years old and has for years. With all those early detection tests she says she finds dogs and cats in early renal insufficiency !


I would recommend start testing at age 5 instead of 7. Both my borders who died of amyloidosis, Glomerulonephritis or a combination of both was at the age of 5. The last dog, Skylar we did start testing early and after 6 months of this last test at age 5, he got a ultra rare kidney disease. No symptoms until one day he wouldn't eat, which we took him immediately up to UF. While on his 4 treatment of dialysis he passed away, we were waiting for the biopsy results from Texas. He was on a low phosphorous food at the time, but UF which sees a lot of kidney cases only see his type 1-2 times a year if that. 

So my advice is to always feed a low phosphorus food to begin with and test early!


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## Dr Dolittle (Aug 2, 2013)

stbernardlover said:


> I may have made this up in my head, but I swear I read somewhere that a safe level of phosphorus should be between 0.4-0.8%? Does that sound right?


I would agree with that. proabbaly on a dry matter basis. Won't find many of the fad diets in that range though. Sad to say, some foods I have seen at .8% were grocery foods and foods as high as 1.4% were the popular expensive foods. One was that Acana eveyone raves about!


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## Dr Dolittle (Aug 2, 2013)

zootv said:


> I would recommend start testing at age 5 instead of 7. Both my borders who died of amyloidosis, Glomerulonephritis or a combination of both was at the age of 5. The last dog, Skylar we did start testing early and after 6 months of this last test at age 5, he got a ultra rare kidney disease. No symptoms until one day he wouldn't eat, which we took him immediately up to UF. While on his 4 treatment of dialysis he passed away, we were waiting for the biopsy results from Texas. He was on a low phosphorous food at the time, but UF which sees a lot of kidney cases only see his type 1-2 times a year if that.
> 
> So my advice is to always feed a low phosphorus food to begin with and test early!


Sorry for the heartache you've been through. I surely can't disagree with you. Seven is just an arbitrary number but if you graphed out the riskd of age related disease, thats where it jumps. Blood work is pretty amazing. The bible says the life is in the blood so it makes sense we can detact so much there! Thankfully CRF is still relatively rare and somewhat treatable. Folks caught up in the raw, bones, prey concept don't realize how blessed they have to have healthy animals that can withstand such a diet! Though I am sure they'll say its the diet that makes them healthy! Thanks God for good genes....and the grace to get thru those hard times when the geanes aren't so good, where you've been.


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## stbernardlover (Jun 24, 2013)

The highest phosphorus I have ever seen was 2.95%, and the calcium was around 2.1%. The worst part about it was that I saw it in a veterinarian's office.


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## Taser (Mar 14, 2013)

Has anyone actually found any of the "premium" foods that have a phosphorous level that isn't outrageous? I've been looking but so far have only found a couple of the GO foods, and one from Wild Calling. Fromm and Wellness have a few that hover around 1% but that's about it. A lot of the companies don't even list the phosphorous levels.


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## Georgiapeach (Jan 24, 2011)

Taser said:


> Has anyone actually found any of the "premium" foods that have a phosphorous level that isn't outrageous? I've been looking but so far have only found a couple of the GO foods, and one from Wild Calling. Fromm and Wellness have a few that hover around 1% but that's about it. A lot of the companies don't even list the phosphorous levels.


I'm currently feeding my toy poodle Now Small Breed Grain Free. It has 1.2% calcium and 0.8% phosphorous, listed on the bag. You're right though, many foods don't list these percentages.


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## Shamrockmommy (Sep 10, 2009)

Precise naturals (the plain formulas, not the holistic ones) have good phosphorus levels. I'm happy with the food.


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## stbernardlover (Jun 24, 2013)

Innova Senior has low phosphorus compared to many others. Between 0.8-1.0%. The levels on the bag are usually minimums and say nothing about what the levels actually are. Most of the time if you email or call the company they will tell you what lab analyses say as far as the average percentage.


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## hamster0601 (Apr 22, 2014)

Taser said:


> Has anyone actually found any of the "premium" foods that have a phosphorous level that isn't outrageous? I've been looking but so far have only found a couple of the GO foods, and one from Wild Calling. Fromm and Wellness have a few that hover around 1% but that's about it. A lot of the companies don't even list the phosphorous levels.


Nutrisource Large Breed Grain Free Chicken is only .8%. Dr. Tims was pretty low as well, but we opted for the grain free. Only problem is the sodium content is kind of high.


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## Dr Dolittle (Aug 2, 2013)

stbernardlover said:


> Innova Senior has low phosphorus compared to many others. Between 0.8-1.0%. The levels on the bag are usually minimums and say nothing about what the levels actually are. Most of the time if you email or call the company they will tell you what lab analyses say as far as the average percentage.


That's the thing to remember! the bags are just minimums and maximums? You have to call the company to get the actual as fed amt.


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## Dr Dolittle (Aug 2, 2013)

I love all this nutrient talk! Makes my heart sing!


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## Dr Dolittle (Aug 2, 2013)

Taser said:


> Has anyone actually found any of the "premium" foods that have a phosphorous level that isn't outrageous? I've been looking but so far have only found a couple of the GO foods, and one from Wild Calling. Fromm and Wellness have a few that hover around 1% but that's about it. A lot of the companies don't even list the phosphorous levels.


Taser! You got it!!! And why are these foods so outrageously high in phosphorus? Was there some new discovery that showed higher phosphorus is good for dogs????? Or is it that food companies can sell expensive great looking diets with various sources of fancy sounding protein and grain free, etc. and don't care what the phosphorus levels are since no one is looking?


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## stbernardlover (Jun 24, 2013)

Sadly, I feel like it is becoming more and more tough to get nutrient analyses from companies. I am currently trying to get the information from the brand I am feeding because it settles my dogs stomach, however most of it is considered proprietary information.


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## stbernardlover (Jun 24, 2013)

Dr Dolittle said:


> Taser! You got it!!! And why are these foods so outrageously high in phosphorus? Was there some new discovery that showed higher phosphorus is good for dogs????? Or is it that food companies can sell expensive great looking diets with various sources of fancy sounding protein and grain free, etc. and don't care what the phosphorus levels are since no one is looking?


That's just it - most consumers are naive and don't know to look. Before talking to my professor who has a PhD in animal nutrition not long ago, I wouldn't have known either. Not to pick on Blue Buffalo, but most people walk into Petsmart and see the cool wolf on the Wilderness bags and go for it. Honestly.. If I was buying for looks like I do for dog collars, I would definitely buy Wilderness. What is pleasing to the eye will sell.


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## Taser (Mar 14, 2013)

Thanks for all the replies. Unfortunately some of the foods listed I can't get here in Ontario. I did get a reply from Merrick very quickly I must say and all of their foods are over 1 % with the lowest at 1.27. That was a typical analysis, not a minimum. I guess my next question would be how high can we safely go since so few foods actually fall where they are supposed to.


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