# Hope I Haven't Made A Mistake



## rescuedoglover (Sep 26, 2010)

I usually don't buy a dog food on impulse; but I did so today. I bought a big bag of Earthborn's new Grain Free Great Plains Feast from DoggieFood.com. It was 20% off plus there was a 10% coupon. I figured that covered the shipping. I was intregued by the absence of potatoes in this formula. They use tapioca as the binder instead. Their Primative Natural and the new Costal Catch contain potatoes. 
What has been this forums experience with Earthborn's Grain Free foods?
Mike


----------



## _Trish (Jan 31, 2011)

I have no experience with this food but Nature's Variety Instinct, is also made with tapioca instead of potatoes. If you're looking for another food that is potato-free, Nutrisca makes a food that is both tapioca and potato free, and uses chick peas as the binder. I know a few people that use the Nutrisca and love it, but it's not available locally here, and I don't like ordering food off the internet and having to get it shipped here. Shipping for buying just a small bag is too much, and I don't want to get the large bag and be stuck with it, or have to donate it to an animal shelter if my dogs either don't like it or don't do well on it. If I can't get it locally, I just don't buy it. Thankfully Acana and Orijen are available locally to me, as well as TOTW. I'd thought about trying Great Life as it seemed like an okay food, but after reading reviews about the company not disclosing information about the food like where it was processed, among other things I felt like it wasn't worth trying.


----------



## meggels (May 30, 2010)

I'm a rep for Earthborn, and have used the primitive natural on my dogs with great success. waiting for the store i rep in to get the two new formulas to try them out too!


----------



## GermanSheperdlover (Nov 15, 2009)

No doubt that it is light on meat. But Tapioca is a good ingredient. Sodium Selenite is the only controversial ingredient. Over all it looks to be a pretty good dog food. If I were to feed this I would add some meat to my dogs diet, but I do that anyway. More meat the better, as long as it isn't by product meal.

Bison Meal, Peas, Pea Protein, Tapioca, Dried Egg Product, Canola Oil (preserved with mixed Tocopherols, a source of Vitamin E), Flaxseed, Lamb Meal, Pea Fiber, Natural Flavors, Blueberry Fiber, Cranberry Fiber, Apples, Blueberries, Carrots, Spinach, Cranberries, Choline Chloride, Potassium Chloride, DL-Methionine, L-Lysine, Taurine, L-Carnitine, Vitamin A Supplement, Vitamin D3 Supplement, Vitamin E Supplement, Zinc Sulfate, Ferrous Sulfate, Niacin, Folic Acid, Biotin, Manganese Sulfate, Copper Sulfate, Salt, Calcium Pantothenate, Thiamine Mononitrate, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride, Riboflavin Supplement, L-Ascorbyl-2-Polyphosphate (source of Vitamin C), Zinc Proteinate, Manganese Proteinate, Copper Proteinate, Calcium Iodate, Sodium Selenite, Cobalt Carbonate, Vitamin B12 Supplement, Yucca Schidgera Extract, Rosemary Extract, Dried Lactobacillus Plantarum Fermentation Product, Dried


----------



## kevin bradley (Aug 9, 2009)

Its a solid food. 

I think you'll be ok 

I'm not making fun of you... but it does make me smile a bit. Someone is out buying a bag of Old Roy this morning and you are worried about Earthborn Grain free. 

It just makes me smile. In a good way


----------



## cast71 (Sep 16, 2010)

GermanSheperdlover said:


> No doubt that it is light on meat.


Why do you think it's light on meat? I realize it has only one meat in the first 5 ingredients, but it is meat meal. It has 34% protein and 18% fat. It must contain a significant amount of bison meal. I would add extra meat to any dry food;0)


----------



## kevin bradley (Aug 9, 2009)

Agree w/ Cast. 

This is an error I see all the time when people look at food. I think some need to go back to math class. 

Let's get this straight... if a food has a high protein percentage and it contains only 1-2 meat sources, it simply means that it has a more concentrated meat source as opposed to meat spread out across multiple meat sources. 

It seems pretty basic to me but I see people ridicule foods all the time when they have just one meat source.


----------



## cast71 (Sep 16, 2010)

This is a quote from dog food advisor for primitive natural.

"The first two items in this dog food are chicken meal and turkey meal. Chicken and turkey meals are considered meat concentrates and contain nearly 300% more protein than fresh poultry."

For this reason I think meals are better than fresh meats in dry dog food. What's left from fresh meats after being processed????? I also like the idea, that each grainfree formula contains different proteins. For example there isn't chicken in every formula. If you were to rotate formulas, you would be giving a break from proteins. This would give better nutrient absorption;0) I'm planning on trying these 3 formulas into my rotation. I'll use my doggie's output as the true test ahahahaha


----------



## 3Musketeers (Nov 4, 2010)

Well, the protein amount might not be a great indicator of meat content in this case (see bold), but peas make for a nice change form potatoes.

Bison Meal, Peas, *Pea Protein*, Tapioca, *Dried Egg Product*, Canola Oil (preserved with mixed Tocopherols, a source of Vitamin E), Flaxseed, Lamb Meal, Pea Fiber, Natural Flavors, Blueberry Fiber, Cranberry Fiber, Apples, Blueberries, Carrots, Spinach, Cranberries, Choline Chloride, Potassium Chloride, DL-Methionine, L-Lysine, Taurine, L-Carnitine, Vitamin A Supplement, Vitamin D3 Supplement, Vitamin E Supplement, Zinc Sulfate, Ferrous Sulfate, Niacin, Folic Acid, Biotin, Manganese Sulfate, Copper Sulfate, Salt, Calcium Pantothenate, Thiamine Mononitrate, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride, Riboflavin Supplement, L-Ascorbyl-2-Polyphosphate (source of Vitamin C), Zinc Proteinate, Manganese Proteinate, Copper Proteinate, Calcium Iodate, Sodium Selenite, Cobalt Carbonate, Vitamin B12 Supplement, Yucca Schidgera Extract, Rosemary Extract, Dried Lactobacillus Plantarum Fermentation Product, Dried


----------



## GermanSheperdlover (Nov 15, 2009)

kevin bradley said:


> Agree w/ Cast.
> 
> This is an error I see all the time when people look at food. I think some need to go back to math class.
> 
> ...


I DID NOT MAKE ANY ERROR. What I like to see is at least 2 fresh meats AND A MEAL before the first oil or fat. YES I AM AWARE THAT THEY LOSE MASS AFTER PROCESSING. All the foods I highly recommend have at least 3 meats/meat meals before the first fat and that also depends on the ingredient list. You can be "no more wrong" about the protein. Protein can and does come from many other sources and in this case it would be from the peas, pea PROTEIN and the egg product. There is absolutely NO WAY that 34% protein comes from ONE meat meal. Do you even know how much protein there is in peas. For you info there is 5 grams for every 100 grams of peas and that is before processing and the pea protein is really heavy on protein. The one thing about this forum is that there is just a ton of miss leading information given out by people giving their own opinions. Opinions are great but facts are much better.

Pea - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Where do you think body builders get all their protein from?

Bodybuilding.com - Egg Protein Information and Product Listing! Egg Protein FAQ!

Egg White Protein: Information and Products from AllStarHealth.com

I feed Orijen and I still believe you should add and I do add meat to my dogs diet.

I am sorry if I sound a little rough because you did ruffle my feathers.


----------



## kevin bradley (Aug 9, 2009)

I understand that, GSL... but all of the premium foods have some form of non meat based protein. 

You seem to have done a lot of research on it and want facts, so I'll ask you one...

If you're so sure this food is so light on meat based protein, what is the percentage of protein that is meat based?

Here's the deal, GSL, you've made the point that Peas have protein(both in this thread and the flaming PM you sent me)... but I want you to tell us exactly how much of each(Meat and Pea protein) is in this food. 

Yeah, I got it. Peas have some protein.


----------



## GermanSheperdlover (Nov 15, 2009)

Your completely missing the point. I am sure you realize the first ingredient contains the most mass and down the line each gets less. This is the issue, because you can't be sure how much less. A company like Orijen states 80% meat, SO YOU KNOW HOW MUCH MEAT THERE IS. With this product you have 4 more ingredients before the low-medium grade oil(which is a clue). Now it's a guessing game, do they drop 10% of the mass between ingredient or 25% or??? Who knows? But these companies are in business to make money and meat & meat meal costs money. One big clue to me is the doubling up of any ingredient and in this case it is the pea product. I look hard at each ingredient because they give you clues. What really jumps out at me is the third pea product. Let me point out, that it isn't set in stone that the ingredients after the first fat or oil is that much less than those before the first fat or oil. When I see Canola Oil then 3 salt products in Choline Chloride, Salt and Sodium Selenite, I really wonder what they are up to. So I really doubt there is more than 20-25% meat in this product. Is there that much more lamb meal than pea fiber?? And I don't think much of pea fiber....So that's my take...opcorn: My guess on the protein is 50-50....Now don't get me wrong, because this is a good dog food, but I feel you need to add more meat if you feed this. The End.


----------



## GermanSheperdlover (Nov 15, 2009)

cast71 said:


> This is a quote from dog food advisor for primitive natural.
> 
> "The first two items in this dog food are chicken meal and turkey meal. Chicken and turkey meals are considered meat concentrates and contain nearly 300% more protein than fresh poultry."
> 
> For this reason I think meals are better than fresh meats in dry dog food. What's left from fresh meats after being processed????? I also like the idea, that each grainfree formula contains different proteins. For example there isn't chicken in every formula. If you were to rotate formulas, you would be giving a break from proteins. This would give better nutrient absorption;0) I'm planning on trying these 3 formulas into my rotation. I'll use my doggie's output as the true test ahahahaha


I never like DFA and I remember why, 300% NO WAY!! This could help.

The Dog Food Project - Meat vs. Meal


----------



## buddy97 (Mar 29, 2010)

GermanSheperdlover said:


> I never like DFA and I remember why, 300% NO WAY!! This could help.
> [/url]


yes, 300% is probably close to accurate. that only indicates 3 times as much (not 300x). named meat meals contain somewhere around 10% or less water content before cooking. meats can contain as much as 70% water. it is perfectly feasible. i wouldnt be surprised if it was more than 300%.

that is why named meats are fools gold. they look good on paper, but that is it. their true place on the ingredient list is so far down as to be essentially meaningless. they are there for window dressing, to make the unknowing customers feel good.

a food could have 2 named meat meals followed by 2 named meats. that still doesnt mean it has more meat content than a food with only one named meat meal. without a company explicitly stating how much of the protein is from meat sources (in addition to a moderate to high meat content), there is absolutely no way to determine it given what the dog food labeling rules allow.

as an example, look at TOTW's Sierra formula. Lamb, then lamb meal. looks good, right? however, we know that at only 25% protein there is not a high meat content here. that cannot even be disputed.


----------



## GermanSheperdlover (Nov 15, 2009)

Buddy u are also missing the point. But the TOTW-Wetlands is what I feed in the AM which is 32% protein. Look close, every ingredient before the first fat is outstanding. I once read a post here that someone didn't like sweet potatoes, heck they are packed full of nutrients and very little sugar as the poster thinks. Keep looking, not one bad ingredient. You could argue tomato pomace is a filler, yes and no, because it serves a purpose and every dog food kibble has something in it to keep the stools firm. Now there is a bit of salt product in this food, but I have a active dog so in my case it doesn't bother me. My guess here on the meat is around 30-35%. Don't kid yourself, I don't think there are any dog foods above that, OTHER WISE they would say so and advertise it to sell their product. Champion foods are the only ones who really advertise their meat %. Even back in the day before p&g, Evo never said boo about meat %. 

Duck, duck meal, chicken meal, egg product, sweet potatoes, peas, chicken fat (preserved with mixed tocopherols), potatoes, roasted quail, roasted duck, smoked turkey, natural flavor, tomato pomace, ocean fish meal, salt, choline chloride, dried chicory root, tomatoes, blueberries, raspberries, yucca schidigera extract, dried fermentation products of Enterococcus faecium, Lactobacillus acidophilus, Lactobacillus casei and Lactobacillus plantarum, dried Trichoderma longibrachiatum fermentation extract, vitamin E supplement, iron proteinate, zinc proteinate, copper proteinate, ferrous sulfate, zinc sulfate, copper sulfate, potassium iodide, thiamine mononitrate (vitamin B1), manganese proteinate, manganous oxide, ascorbic acid, vitamin A supplement, biotin, niacin, calcium pantothenate, manganese sulfate, sodium selenite, pyridoxine hydrochloride (vitamin B6), vitamin B12 supplement, riboflavin (vitamin B2), vitamin D supplement, folic acid.


----------



## buddy97 (Mar 29, 2010)

GermanSheperdlover said:


> My guess here on the meat is around *30-35%*. Don't kid yourself, I don't think there are any dog foods above that, OTHER WISE they would say so and advertise it to sell their product. Champion foods are the only ones who really advertise their meat %. Even back in the day before p&g, Evo never said boo about meat %.
> .



there are several foods that make statements to that effect. EVO, champion, Instinct, and several others that are willing to say so (annamaet and abady will). another red flag to me are the very low calorie contents, such as with TOTW. it is hard to have a decent amount of meat content and produce a food that doesnt even have 400 calories/cup.

i used to poo poo people that came here and babbled about annamaet, mainly because i never had heard much about them. but, once i really looked at their grain free foods, i felt it was clear that id much rather feed that than something like TOTW (any formula)


----------



## kevin bradley (Aug 9, 2009)

GSL,

NO, we are not MISSING the point. I get what you are saying. With Pea Fiber so high in the ingredient list, you are assuming it makes up a significant portion of the protein. 

I'm willing to admit you might be right. But all it indicates is that Peas are second on the ingredient list and you are making an assumption that in mass, they are close to equal to the Bison meal. Unless we know exactly how much Bison Meal is in the food, how would we know for certain?


----------



## kevin bradley (Aug 9, 2009)

GSL,

Curious... this is kind of off topic but similar in subject. Below is EVO. Would it be safe to assume that 100% of its protein comes from MEAT? I see little in that ingredient list other than meat that would add to any protein content. 



Innova EVO Adult Dog Ingredients:
Turkey, Chicken, Turkey Meal, Chicken Meal, Potatoes, Herring Meal, Chicken Fat (Preserved with Mixed Tocopherols, a Natural Source of Vitamin E), Natural Flavors, Eggs, Apples, Tomatoes, Potassium Chloride, Carrots, Vitamins (Ascorbic Acid, Vitamin E Supplement, Betaine Hydrochloride, Vitamin A Supplement, Niacin Supplement, Calcium Pantothenate, Beta Carotene, Vitamin B12 Supplement, Vitamin D3 Supplement, Riboflavin Supplement, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride, Thiamine Mononitrate, Biotin, Folic Acid), Cottage Cheese, Minerals (Zinc Proteinate, Iron Proteinate, Copper Proteinate, Manganese Proteinate, Calcium Iodate), Alfalfa Sprouts, Dried Chicory Root, Direct-Fed Microbials (Dried Lactobacillus acidophilus Fermentation Product, Dried Lactobacillus casei Fermentation Product, Dried Enterococcus faecium Fermentation Product)


----------



## cast71 (Sep 16, 2010)

I agree with buddy that fresh meats in kibble are a total waste of money:ban: I'd rather see that money invested in more meat meal. I ignore fresh meats in kibble, like there not even there. Also unless the company states what percentage of meats make up of the kibble, the ingredient list is a mystery you'll never figure out. I don't care how hard you look at the ingredient list, You'll never know how much meat is in there. 1,2,3,4,5...... meat ingredients mean nothing without the total meat % being stated. The only way to find out in this case, is to see how your dog does on it. If you get huge output, you know there's not much meat in there. And please don't tell me dogs digest fruits and vegetables efficiently. I would love to see them removed from kibble:biggrin: You can also use cellulose(paper) to tighten up stools and I've seen it in some dog foodsuke: It's probably just as nutritious as fruits and vegetables, as far as dogs are concerned.


----------



## cast71 (Sep 16, 2010)

Evo states on the bag 81% chicken, turkey, dairy and 19% fruits and vegetables. I would say most of the protein is from meat, meat oil and eggs. The rest is from potatoes.


----------

