# No more raw for Sophie



## threedognight (Jun 16, 2008)

Well it was going great for the first week and I thought we had finally licked Sophies IBD; she was eating great, and had firm poo and no vomiting. Then yeaterday she had extremely bloody and mucusy diarea and vomiting. I got her to eat enough of her Blue Buffalo canned venison stew to take her antibiotics and she feels much better this morning but still not eating yet. I am keeping the other two on raw seeing as they are doing so well on it. I have ordered Sophie a bag of Natural Balance duck and sweet potato in hopes of getting a long lasting "well" period. She had the longest well time on BB fish & sweet potato(about 2 months).


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## RawFedDogs (Jun 16, 2008)

Even healthy dogs that are newly switched will have occasional diarrhea and/or vomit particularly if they are on antibiotics. It's no big deal and easily fixed. You are making a big mistake putting her back on kibble which caused the problem to begin with. Prey Model Raw is the absolute best thing you can feed an IBD dog. It is much easier to digest than any other food there is. Even my wife who has IBD can eat any meat she wants but some veggies and most fruits give her real problems. You can't buy a kibble with no veggies.

Just because she has one bout of diarrhea/vomiting doesn't mean she is not doing well. Give it a chance. Don't panic at the first set back. 

What did you feed her before her set back and how much did you feed? IBD dogs usually need smaller more frequent meals when switching. This is not a difficult problem to fix.


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## threedognight (Jun 16, 2008)

*resigned*

This has been an ongoing problem. I know that I wont change your mind but you cant fix EVERYTHING with a raw diet. I agree whole heartedly that it is the best diet you can feed a dog UNLESS it is making them ill. Sophie isnt just having diahrea, she is pooping nearly straight blood and mucus. I have been stuggling for months to get this under control and the only luck I have had is with fish and duck. The kibble is NOT what made her sick, her body did, her problems are not the grains in the kibble, it is with her body attacking the protiens as they enter her gut like they attack disease. She is most likely most allergic to the protiens in chicken and I cannot afford to buy duck for her, nor can I spend my days fishing for her. I really wanted this to work for her but it didnt and I have to do what I can to make her as healthy and COMFORTABLE as I can. I am despereatly trying to keep her off of a prescription diet but that is where a lot of dogs with this disease end up. IBD is a terrible condition not to be confused with IBS.


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## micdenver (Jul 6, 2008)

*Important to give Probiotics with Antibiotics*

Hi, 

I read you are giving your dog antibiotics. Because the antibiotics will kill the good helpful bacteria in their system you need to give them probiotics also. I'm currently giving Nutri-Vet from PetSmart because it was reasonably priced but there are lots of really good high quality versions out there and once my dogs are off the antibiotics I'll likely restock with another brand so that they are getting a well rounded set of probiotics. They suggest giving it for 4 weeks after the antibiotics end.

Good luck to you and your dogs overcoming the digestive issues.

Michelle


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## attackofthebear (Jun 25, 2008)

It could have been a detoxification. I know my dogs went through a vomiting and mucus covered stools around three to five days after starting the diet. I dont recall blood in my dogs stools, but there might have been some. I would look up the detoxification process to see if thats what it was. 

Dogs that switch to raw typically show signs of improvement first, then the symptoms return worse then they were before. That is because the body is dealing with them, fighting them. This is mistaken as a bad reaction to the diet, when in fact it is the main reason for going on the diet. 


http://www.drpitcairn.com/books/pitcairn_book.html
The link goes to the book that explains a ton of information about detoxification. Dr. Pitcairn isnt my favorite holistic vet, but he is correct about this process. I recommend trying to find the book in the library or buying it if you want to. Based on what I have read, it was worth the buy.


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## RawFedDogs (Jun 16, 2008)

threedognight said:


> This has been an ongoing problem. I know that I wont change your mind but you cant fix EVERYTHING with a raw diet.


No it won't fix everything but it certainly will fix IBD.



> I agree whole heartedly that it is the best diet you can feed a dog UNLESS it is making them ill.


The raw diet is not what is making your dog ill. She was ill long before beginning the raw diet.



> Sophie isnt just having diahrea, she is pooping nearly straight blood and mucus.


While that can be upsetting to someone not expecting it, it is really not a big deal. It is easily fixed.



> The kibble is NOT what made her sick, ...


Oh, it is THE VERY cause of her problems.



> her body did, her problems are not the grains in the kibble, it is with her body attacking the protiens as they enter her gut like they attack disease.


That is probably true but it is the plant proteins, not the animal proteins that cause the problem. Grains aggravate it also.



> She is most likely most allergic to the protiens in chicken and I cannot afford to buy duck for her, nor can I spend my days fishing for her.


Most likely not. A dog being allergic to animal protein is like a cow being allergic to grass. It just almost never happens.



> I really wanted this to work for her but it didnt and I have to do what I can to make her as healthy and COMFORTABLE as I can.


Give it a chance. You haven't done that yet. You tried it one week and then after one little incident, you panicked and stopped.



> I am despereatly trying to keep her off of a prescription diet but that is where a lot of dogs with this disease end up. IBD is a terrible condition not to be confused with IBS.


My wife has IBD. I know all about it. Of course she is not on a raw diet either. hehe


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## threedognight (Jun 16, 2008)

I have almost watched this dog bleed to death from the rectum and retch until she had no energy to stand so PLEASE stop trying to be her savior and my educator when you know NOTHING of mine or her personal battle with this. She is back on a grainless kibble, has finished her antibiotics and is doing great. I have continued to feed raw to my other two because it is working well for them. Just as I would not force a lactose intolerant child to drink milk just because its good for them; I will not force a diet on my dog that causes her pain and misery. 
You have a lot of very good info and are very passionate about what you believe and that is great but you are crossing the line from passion into fanaticism. Most people if not all dislike being preached at and being talked down to. You will reach many more people with your information if you would sound a bit less like you are shoving it down their throats.


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## RawFedDogs (Jun 16, 2008)

threedognight said:


> ... so PLEASE stop trying to be her savior and my educator when you know NOTHING of mine or her personal battle with this.


I know more about your situation than you think I do. I know IBD. I know what it is and what it does. I also know the canine digestive system and how it works. I know that raw meat and bones are much easier on the digestive system than any kibble with or without grain. There is nothing you could feed your dog that is harder to digest than kibble. Difficult to digest things are not what you want to feed.

Do your own research and you will come to the same conclusion. If you don't want to be educated, fine. I am just trying to help. I understand your frustration with your dog. It can be very unsettling to have a dog with such serious problems.



> I will not force a diet on my dog that causes her pain and misery.


There are a lot of treatments for a lot of physical ailments that may cause pain and misery and a raw diet may cause the same for your dogs temporarily until her digestive system adjusts to real food, and it will adjust. There is no physical ailment that a dog can have that will benefit more from feeding a diet of highly processed artificial food than from a diet of meat, bones, and organs. Artificial food just doesn't make sense anytime.

Do what you want. It's your dog but you are shooting the messenger. The message is correct.


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## bellamicuore (Jun 16, 2008)

threedognight said:


> You have a lot of very good info and are very passionate about what you believe and that is great but you are crossing the line from passion into fanaticism. Most people if not all dislike being preached at and being talked down to. You will reach many more people with your information if you would sound a bit less like you are shoving it down their throats.


I have to agree with this. I think this exact same thing every time I read your posts. Great info, but it would be more helpful if you toned it down just a bit. Just my opinion.


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## chunli27 (Jul 7, 2008)

I completely agree. You are definitely very knowledgeable when it comes to dogs but you do sound very condescending at times. I understand that the raw diet is better for dogs, and yes...that is how nature intended them to be. But things have changed. Just because kibble isn't as good as raw does not mean that it is bad. I have had a few dogs and my last one passed away at 17, completely healthy, just from old age. Nature didn't intend for humans to eat deep fried, oil cooked McDonald, but they do. Now, if you are also on the Raw movement of only eating unprocessed food, then I suppose I cannot make a case haha. 

Perhaps people will be more grateful for your knowledge and opinion if you didn't attack everyone. You seem to get very offended and defensive if someone does not have the same opinion as you on their dog's diet. 

Threedognight...I'm glad that your baby is doing better and wish you both the best.


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## WhiteDogHouse (Jul 10, 2008)

If you have decided to take her off raw, I think Blue Buffalo is a very good choice to feed if she does well on it. I am not an authority by any means, but I did hear (and I am sure someone could confirm or deny) that you should not combine raw and kibble because of food poisoning because of the food mixing and then going bad - so I would be very careful since your other 2 babies are on raw. I feed my dogs Avoderm kibble and Blue Buffalo canned. They are doing great! Their stools are fine - they only get dirrahea when they steal catfood from our kitty! Good luck to you!


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## RawFedDogs (Jun 16, 2008)

chunli27 said:


> I completely agree. You are definitely very knowledgeable when it comes to dogs but you do sound very condescending at times.


The things I say, I say with confidence and always set aside emotion and speak with logic and reason. If this comes across as condescending, it is only in the eyes of the reader. As long as it's factual, logical and reasonable, you shouldn't try to put something in it that isn't there.



> I understand that the raw diet is better for dogs, and yes...that is how nature intended them to be. But things have changed.


As far as feeding dogs a highly processed grain based cereal, yes things have changed but not for the better and dogs haven't changed nutritionally in hundreds of thousands of years.



> Just because kibble isn't as good as raw does not mean that it is bad.


If you study the ingredeints in kibble, learn where they came from and learn about the manufacturing process, you would change your mind on that statement.



> I have had a few dogs and my last one passed away at 17, completely healthy, just from old age.


I had a grandfather that lived to be 86 and smoked up to the day he died. That doesn't mean smoking didn't cntribute to his death.



> Nature didn't intend for humans to eat deep fried, oil cooked McDonald, but they do. Now, if you are also on the Raw movement of only eating unprocessed food, then I suppose I cannot make a case haha.


Yes, I eat fried food and McDonalds 1/4 pounders and french fries and other fast foods. It doesn't mean that they aren't slowly killing me.



> Perhaps people will be more grateful for your knowledge and opinion if you didn't attack everyone. You seem to get very offended and defensive if someone does not have the same opinion as you on their dog's diet.


I get offended when I present facts and people ignore them mostly because they refuse to think outside their little box or because they choose to follow the easy path. I rarely give opinion. When it's opinion, I label it as such. I present facts.


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## bellamicuore (Jun 16, 2008)

Well, in case you haven't noticed, your approach isn't working. I get turned off every time I read one of your posts. Which is a shame, because I do think you have a lot of knowledge and a lot to contribute, but at the rate your going no one is going to be interested in reading anything that comes from you.



RawFedDogs said:


> The things I say, I say with confidence and always set aside emotion and speak with logic and reason. If this comes across as condescending, it is only in the eyes of the reader. As long as it's factual, logical and reasonable, you shouldn't try to put something in it that isn't there.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## chunli27 (Jul 7, 2008)

RawFedDogs...your response to my post obvious made my point even stronger. You say that it is in the eye of the beholder, but already 3 of us have asked you to tone it down.

You state that we are in our own bubble, but obviously you are also in your own bubble. You are always right and only you. Your way is the only way because apparently you know everything and if anyone else disagrees, we're wrong. 

I love this forum, I truly do but I do dread reading any post that includes you. 
And almost everything does. I love the knowledge everyone shares and I respect everyones opinion, but I don't like one man thinking he knows everything. 

Admin, I would suggest you ask him to tone down before you lose more members.


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## RawFedDogs (Jun 16, 2008)

chunli27 said:


> You are always right and only you. Your way is the only way because apparently you know everything and if anyone else disagrees, we're wrong.


I have no problem with anyone disagreeing with me particularly if they have some kind of evidence to back up what they say. If I make a statement and no one presents evidence that I'm wrong, then I must be right. People like nothing better than to prove me wrong and I respect them when they do. 



> I love the knowledge everyone shares and I respect everyones opinion, but I don't like one man thinking he knows everything.


But whether or not that knowledge is accruate doesn't bother you? I don't deal in opinion or feelings, only facts. Sometimes people don't want to hear the facts. Often they know the facts but don't want ot admit them. I don't know quite everything yet but I do know a heck of a lot about canine behavior and nutrition. I've had years of experience and have confered and worked with the most notable experts in both fields.


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## chunli27 (Jul 7, 2008)

I would just like you to acknowledge that maybe not everyone wants to feed raw. And that you should respect their decision. Kibble is not as bad as you say it is or the entire world would be feeding raw. Majority of dogs do well on kibble.

You're so into what nature intended for dogs to eat. Well nature intended for them to hunt for their own food. Do your dogs hunt for their own raw meat? After all, thats what nature intended. 

I'm bored at work so I keep coming back here, but it is my last post. It's like talking to a wall and I do not need to annoyed due to one guy ranting on a dog forum. 

Good luck everyone else!! Boxermommie...thanks for all your advice and I appreciate everyone else that helped. =)


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## bellamicuore (Jun 16, 2008)

RawFedDogs said:


> If I make a statement and no one presents evidence that I'm wrong, then I must be right.



This has got to be one of the most egotistical statements I've ever read. Just because no one on this board presents evidence that you're wrong certainly does NOT make you right. Get over yourself.


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## RawFedDogs (Jun 16, 2008)

chunli27 said:


> Do your dogs hunt for their own raw meat? After all, thats what nature intended.


Actually they often do. The pretty regularly kill rabbits and squirrels. My cats kill those two species plus rodents and birds. The dogs always eat their own kill. The cats do sometimes but sometimes they just eat a portion of it and leave the rest. Sometimes I think the cats kill just for the fun of it. Sometimes they don't eat any of it. Almost every day, I find parts of animals or whole dead animals or sometimes its just a stomach and intestines laying around my property. Thats kinda how I monitor how much they are getting. I think over half the cats diet is wild kill. The dogs are probably closer to 10%.



> I'm bored at work so I keep coming back here, but it is my last post. It's like talking to a wall and I do not need to annoyed due to one guy ranting on a dog forum.


Stick around, I guarantee you'll learn something.


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## RawFedDogs (Jun 16, 2008)

chunli27 said:


> I would just like you to acknowledge that maybe not everyone wants to feed raw.


Just because someone doesn't want to does not meat it's not best for the dog.



> And that you should respect their decision.


I respect decisions to do what is best for the animals.



> Kibble is not as bad as you say it is or the entire world would be feeding raw.


They have been taken in by the hype from the dog food companies. They have been convinced that dogs are omnivores and they are taken in by the pictures of healthy ingredients on the bag. Of course the ingredients in the bag look nothing like the picture. They are also taken in by the name of the products themselves. Names like "Wellness", "Nautral Choice", and all the other fancy names given my marketing departments.



> Majority of dogs do well on kibble.


Thats an arguable statement what with all the allergies, IBD, IBS, diarrhea, skin conditions, cancer, kidney problems, liver problems and all the other diseases that didn't exist until about 30 years ago.


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## rannmiller (Jun 27, 2008)

You may come off like you're attacking people or being condescending, but I'm so used to dealing with people like that, I've come to be more amused than annoyed by it. Maybe more people should try to understand that you can't always convey attitude and tone of voice over typed messages on a forum (not to offend anyone on here, believe me!). Because as it was previously stated, this is a dog forum for fun and the exchanging of ideas, knowledge and advice. 

Anyway, Rawfeddogs, I love hearing what you have to say. You're extremely knowledgeable and after reading how passionate you are about the raw food diet and having the points reiterated over and over again, and doing even more research on the matter, when I run out of my kibble I have now I plan on switching over to raw and sticking with it despite how broke I may be and the fact that I get my kibble for free *sigh* 

I know it's for the best and will ultimately save me loads of money on added supplements, vet bills, etc in the long run. Oh and my roommate is going to switch her dog over with me despite her parents thinking it will murder her dog on site to even look at a raw chicken drumstick.


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## rodwilma (Jul 15, 2008)

*Know the facts*

I've read through this posting and was quite dismayed to see that mostly everyone is on the attack when it comes to hearing truth - here mainly about the proper diet for our dogs. 

I appreciate RawFoodDogs taking the time to speak plainly with bluntness. Society today has made everything 'acceptable' - but don't offend anyone. This leaves out telling the truth and no one wants to hear it.

I at one time was feeding my dog kibble and am grateful to all that God put in my path in switching to raw. I knew absolutely nothing about raw feeding, was scared and nervous - but I took the time to research and find the facts from all ends of the spectrum. And even the very first day when we made the switch I was soo worried. I guess I had been 'conditioned' to believe in companies producing food that they knew better. But my questions are-before kibble & wet food came about - what were dogs eating then? Were they dieing with various diseases? Were they living longer lives? Were they healthy? There are new dog diseases - more than before. Would we want to eat this ourselves? What is causing all these diseases? Why aren't veterinarians knowledgeable about raw feeding. Or do the big dog companies help pay for the training and sponsor them? Who will really make the big bucks? Did these companies after the recent recall change there ingredients or are they still killing animals with their food?

All I can say is that there is so much information, know the facts, take the time to earch thoroughly. Define the ingredients.

I'll leave you all with this article: http://www.api4animals.org/facts.php?p=359&more=1


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## bellamicuore (Jun 16, 2008)

Unfortunately, I think being blunt and pushy can turn a lot of people off. Educating and giving information in a respectful and informative way goes a lot farther than blunt and pushy. It may not change people's minds immediately, but it will give them the tools they need to possibly change in the future.


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## threedognight (Jun 16, 2008)

I do not mind blunt seeing as I tend to be that way myself; it's the pushy and all knowing part that puts me off. No one here knows my or my dogs particular battle or the amount of research and trial and error I have put into making her well. If anyone took the time to read my posts they would see that I have kept my other two dogs on raw because I do believe it is the best for them. I am not a person prone to over excitement or over reaction to things as insinuated by rawfeddogs. I made a choice in the best interest of my dog after many lab tests and a little wait and see. I am not saying that kibble is a good answer; it's just the best answer at this time for Sophie. I think the thing that is turning most people off is the feeling that they are getting from certain others that they are less intelligent or less educated than they are. Just because someone does not agree with you does not make them less than you in any way, and to think so is the epitome of conceit.


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## rannmiller (Jun 27, 2008)

Well kudos to you for keeping your other two dogs on raw. I know so many people who just want to feed one food to all their dogs regardless of whether or not it's appropriate for every dog's age, breed, size, health, weight control, etc. I love raw and I think it's the best way to feed most dogs but if you don't feel that it's right for Sophie and it's doing her more harm than good, then it seems the responsible thing to do to switch to something that _does_ work for her. How is she doing now, by the way?


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## threedognight (Jun 16, 2008)

*Doing good*

She is doing great for the time being. The worst thing about this condition is that it is progressive; it cannot be cured. She will have relapses, they will get worse, and eventually nothing will control it. For now she is well and eating great. She is on Natural Balance duck and potato and likes it well enough that she has gotten a bit chubby and has had to be cut back. After this bag I will be switching her back to BB fish and sweet potato because I absolutely cannot afford the NB.


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## rannmiller (Jun 27, 2008)

That's okay, BB is really good too. Albeit the "life source bits" are a quirky concept, but if it works, stick with it. I didn't know that there was that big of a price difference between the two. 

Anyway, I'm really happy to hear that Sophie is doing better and even getting chubby, that's always good news. I'm sorry about her condition though, that's very sad to hear and must be terrible for you to go through. It sounds like you're taking good care of her though.


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## Guest (Jul 16, 2008)

*This is a fun thread!*

It reminds me that no matter how much I know about dogs and their behavior it doesn't matter unless I can impart that to people in a way that they can hear.
I take that as a fun challenge. Everyone has a different style. Some react to bluntness, some to humor, some the southern, round about polite approach.
That's the key to teaching for me. Not my knowledge of a subject but do I respect others learning styles and present the information in a way that is helpful to them.
That's not an easy thing to do!


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## domari (Jun 17, 2008)

RawFedDogs said:


> Most likely not. A dog being allergic to animal protein is like a cow being allergic to grass. It just almost never happens.



My best friend has a peke that can't eat meat. Her dog is on SD z/d which we've been trying to find her alternatives for. She's tried meat products and the dog winds up sick every time.


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## domari (Jun 17, 2008)

RawFedDogs said:


> The things I say, I say with confidence and always set aside emotion and speak with logic and reason. If this comes across as condescending, it is only in the eyes of the reader. As long as it's factual, logical and reasonable, you shouldn't try to put something in it that isn't there.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


My grandmother ate a lot of fatty food, fried food, used bacon fat to cook in, loved ham, pork, sausage, eggs, cheese, all that cholesterol. She loved sweets had donuts for breakfast, ice cream every night. She smoked, enjoyed a few drinks now and then, loved her caffiene, made coffee that rip most people's stomachs out. She passed away a few weeks before her 95th birthday. I'm sure all those horrid things she did contributed to her death too.

I have an uncle who's a hard core alcoholic, he also used to do cocaine. He's 72 and probably healthier than most of us. 

My husband had a cousin who was a vegetarian, non smoking, non drinking health fanatic. He dropped dead of a massive heart attack at age 35. Did his healthy lifestyle contribute to his death? 

My point is, we all die someday. So don't tell me one food will keep our pets alive longer than others will. As I said before, it's all a gamble. You have no way to guarantee that your dogs will live longer than mine.

As far as your facts, no, a lot of what you say is opinion.


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## domari (Jun 17, 2008)

RawFedDogs said:


> I don't know quite everything yet but I do know a heck of a lot about canine behavior and nutrition. I've had years of experience and have confered and worked with the most notable experts in both fields.


Same here. And yet I can't find your facts to be very factual. 

Maybe you should post some links to back up your opinions instead of just saying that they are facts. 

I'm really into facts too, I like to see some real research and statistics. Not from other forums, I want to see facts based on research, maybe from universities that study animal nutrition, or from scientists or professors, etc. Usually when someone backs up their "facts" on forums, they include quotes or links from others who are from like minded individuals, nothing scientific. I call that opinion.


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## BoxMeIn21 (Jul 2, 2008)

rodwilma said:


> I've read through this posting and was quite dismayed to see that mostly everyone is on the attack when it comes to hearing truth - here mainly about the proper diet for our dogs.
> 
> I appreciate RawFoodDogs taking the time to speak plainly with bluntness. Society today has made everything 'acceptable' - but don't offend anyone. This leaves out telling the truth and no one wants to hear it.
> 
> ...


Wonderful post.


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## Guest (Jul 22, 2008)

Vets take 3 credit hours of nutrition in school. Most of that is on large animal feed. The Hills company comes in and teaches the rest.

It was a vet who taught me the importance of feeding good food and not vaccinating though.

I'm not sure why we expect vets to know about nutrition and I think it's bizzarre that they sell food.

While I take a holistic view of things, most don't. I sure wouldn't ask my family doctor for advice on diet (I'd go see a nutritionist and like on this list, everyone of them has a different opinion) and I can't imagine my doctor selling food from her office.

When I studied animal nutrition I made sure that none of my sources were biased. I wouldn't give credence to any studies done by anyone who profited in any way from pet food.

It came out in the Senate hearings about the pet food recall that there is absoluetly no oversight of the pet food industry. We'll see what the Senate does about that. They tend to move very slow on things (or they work on so many things that it seems slow to us). Senator Durbin is right on top of this. He knew all the right questions to ask (it was pretty amazing) and nailed the pet food manufactureers and AAFCO.


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## rannmiller (Jun 27, 2008)

Wow, it's amazing Senate cares about it so much!


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## Guest (Jul 22, 2008)

Technically they work for us, so they do what we ask. They were bombarded 
with calls, emails and pet owners about the food recall so they responded.
The HSUS follows legislation closely and list and rates how each Senator and Congreesman or Congresswoman votes.
This particular committee also has Senator Byrd on it and he is a huge animal lover.


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## domari (Jun 17, 2008)

zentrainer said:


> Vets take 3 credit hours of nutrition in school. Most of that is on large animal feed. The Hills company comes in and teaches the rest.
> 
> It was a vet who taught me the importance of feeding good food and not vaccinating though.
> 
> ...


My sister in law works for Hills, she's one of the people who go to vet schools and "teach" nutrition. It's funny because she tried to teach my husband all about animal nutrition, he wasn't buying her sales pitch at all. 

Some vets really do study more nutrition than what's required. Many of the vets in my area have gone to Cornell, my vet has taken many nutrition classes there that are not taught by Hills. When one of my dogs was sick with digestive issues, she didn't try to sell me SD, even though she did give him some when he was admitted there for a few days. She gave it to him because that's what the SD reps give to the vet clinics to use.


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## rannmiller (Jun 27, 2008)

My vet is very odd and is a Eukanuba vet. So their boarding policy is that if you have your animals boarded there, they will feed your pet Eukanuba food unless you want to pay extra for them to feed your own. Lame!


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## cbrons (Jul 23, 2008)

RawFedDogs said:


> Even healthy dogs that are newly switched will have occasional diarrhea and/or vomit particularly if they are on antibiotics. It's no big deal and easily fixed. You are making a big mistake putting her back on kibble which caused the problem to begin with. Prey Model Raw is the absolute best thing you can feed an IBD dog. It is much easier to digest than any other food there is. Even my wife who has IBD can eat any meat she wants but some veggies and most fruits give her real problems. You can't buy a kibble with no veggies.
> 
> Just because she has one bout of diarrhea/vomiting doesn't mean she is not doing well. Give it a chance. Don't panic at the first set back.
> 
> What did you feed her before her set back and how much did you feed? IBD dogs usually need smaller more frequent meals when switching. This is not a difficult problem to fix.


YOu seem to have some good advice. Although I myself am not an experienced dog owner, I know quite a bit about mammalian zoology and the concept of raw feeding being the most optimal for dogs is something I almost feel stupid for not thinking of in the first place. 

As to the comment about proteins being attacked by the body, this is a false statement. Proteins are broken down in the same metabolic pathways and fats and carbohydrates, entering these pathways at different steps. Proteins are functional units of the cell, and for any mammal to be allergic to protein is absurd. DNA is transcribed to mRNA which creates proteins. So that's just technically speaking....

No protein = no living organism. Proteins are organic molecules, labeled as such in food because they are branched chains of amino acids (called polypeptides). 

The only way I could conceive this is if the dog had genetic mutation that codes for a specific enzyme responsible for breaking down certain amino acids... but in that case, they wouldn't literally be allergic to "protein." An example of what I am talking about is seen in humans with Phenylketonuria or Tyrosinemia. Maybe its because I am a biology student and feel like it is my duty to correct such errors in discussion so please take no offense. 

Anyway I think the raw feeding is definitely the best for canines. It is what they would eat if they were in the wild. The closest you can get to "natural" dieting, the better. If you take an organism that has been fed a regular diet of harmful substances, and then suddenly replace that with a more optimal one, you are likely to see a myriad of gastrointestinal issues associated with the switch in the interim. A dog who has been fed commercial garbage is probably seriously lacking the necessary symbiotic bacteria that lines the digestive tract and assists by manufacturing essential nutrients and directly breaking down macromolecules contained within food. A diet can select for certain bacteria, and the original poster mentioned antibiotics. Depending on its spectrum, there is no doubt the antibiotic is actively and radically changing the floral makeup of the intestinal tract. 

I am not a vet but I believe the original poster should not be so certain that a raw meat diet is what caused the bloody stools and other digestive issues. In my estimation, there are two far more likely possibilities. One likely possibility is gastroenteritis with a viral or bacterial etiology.. the other even more likely possibility is toxicity from the administration of antibiotics.


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## rannmiller (Jun 27, 2008)

WOW please stick around, it sounds like you would be very helpful in solving many of the spats that occur on here over the biology of feeding dogs and its effects on their health and certain health conditions.


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## cbrons (Jul 23, 2008)

chunli27 said:


> *I would just like you to acknowledge that maybe not everyone wants to feed raw. And that you should respect their decision. Kibble is not as bad as you say it is or the entire world would be feeding raw. Majority of dogs do well on kibble.*


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argumentum_ad_populum

just because the majority of people do something or don't do something does not mean that what they do is right or not harmful... I think RawFed is passionate... mind the good of his intentions, even if it seems like he is being confrontational. 

Think of it from an evolutionary standpoint. Canines evolved from what is now known as the wolf (_Canis lupus_). Through coevolution, dogs have gained the attributes and temperment that currently allow them to serve as house pets. DNA evidence suggests that dogs diverged from their wolf ancestors about 100k years ago... enough time to allow for natural selection to favor traits that aid survival and replication but complicated by artificial selection from human domestication. Regardless, 100k years is not nearly a sufficient amount of time to change basar dietary needs of the species. As such, it can be reasonably concluded that the only natural diet for a dog is what they their ancestors were eating 100,000 years ago which is raw meat that they killed in the wild. The introduction of mass-manufactured foods into the diets of the modern dog may or may not be a suitable substitute (I'm not arguing the efficiency of such diets, I am only stating my conclusion based upon reasonable observations of nature and widely verified scientific conclusions regarding animal ethology and speciation), but these kibble based diets - no matter how pure/organic/whatever - are still a derivation from what would be considered optimal.


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## cbrons (Jul 23, 2008)

domari said:


> My grandmother ate a lot of fatty food, fried food, used bacon fat to cook in, loved ham, pork, sausage, eggs, cheese, all that cholesterol. She loved sweets had donuts for breakfast, ice cream every night. She smoked, enjoyed a few drinks now and then, loved her caffiene, made coffee that rip most people's stomachs out. She passed away a few weeks before her 95th birthday. I'm sure all those horrid things she did contributed to her death too.
> 
> I have an uncle who's a hard core alcoholic, he also used to do cocaine. He's 72 and probably healthier than most of us.
> 
> ...


These are erroneous albeit very sad comparisons. Before I start, I want to say that I am genuinely sorry for your loses... as I know that losing family members can be very hard on us all. 

Now on to my response....

Putting forth anecdotes about how one person with an unhealthy lifestyle lived to old age while a young person with a healthy one died at a young age does not in any way verify your conclusion: That food selection does not make a difference in the longevity of your pet. You are absolutely correct that life is variable (good way you put it, "a gamble"). But i would politely encourage you to be more logical when formulating arguments. Yes it is true that RawFedDogs does not have any way to guarentee that his dogs will live longer. But a guarantee of longevity doesn't render his argument - that poor nutrition is a major risk factor for early death - invalid. 

To help you realize the error of this argument, and please note I am doing this with respect and am not trying to preach (though I am sure it seems like it, please just hear me out).. I just am trying to lay out the argument and then am open to your response.

You say your grandmother lived an unhealthy life but died at an old age. This is the first example you use to support your conclusion.l
You then say another family member died at an early age but lived a healthy life. This is the second example (or anecdote) used to support your conclusion.

You then draw a broad-sweeping conclusion based on two separate events with multiple lines of causality (for instance, you did admit that your grandmothers unhealthy lifestyle probably played a role in her eventual death, food choices were mentioned which is relevant to the issue at hand) but it is unreasonable to suggest that though she did live to an old age and had a liberal amount of dietary restraint that her lack of dietary restraint did not play a role in her eventual death. Also, just because her food choices didn't cause an early death, that doesn't mean that for all humans and all organisms that nutrition does not play a role in how long you live. In fact, you admitted that her food choices probably played a role in her death. So here your argument is contradictory.

The same applies to the latter example. Good diet but death occurs at a young age anyway. These two examples are used to highlight the conclusion that diet doesn't play a role in longevity... Your conclusion is wrong for several reasons: 1.) Nutrition and dietary habits have been scientifically verified for centuries to play a role in longevity... both in humans and canines.. and 2.) You're conclusions is the result of fallacious premises

for more information please refer to this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appeal_to_consequences

I find this thread very helpful, thank you all for your contributions as it is challenging me in many different ways to think about important issues of nutrition for dogs...


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## bellamicuore (Jun 16, 2008)

cbrons said:


> I think RawFed is passionate... min...mmunication. I'm glad you joined this board.


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## RawFedDogs (Jun 16, 2008)

bellamicuore said:


> But I (and I can only speak for myself) would be more apt to listen to you than to listen to someone who comes off as an arrogant, egotistical, know-it-all who never seems to back up his claims with facts (after he's been asked to do so many times).


Perhaps you confuse "arrogant, egotistical, know-it-all" with someone who is confident of their knowledge. Confidence is also a good thing. Exactly which of my claims as you call them did I fail to back up? I may have missed one.


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## bellamicuore (Jun 16, 2008)

RawFedDogs said:


> Perhaps you confuse "arrogant, egotistical, know-it-all" with someone who is confident of their knowledge. Confidence is also a good thing. Exactly which of my claims as you call them did I fail to back up? I may have missed one.


I think it's great to be confident, but maybe you don't realize how you sound in your posts. I, along with others, have tried to point out how you tend to turn people off (not everyone, but the people who don't seem to mind your style are already feeding raw). Saying that 'if no one proves me wrong then I must be right' is an extremely arrogant and egotistical thing to say and it's ridiculous. You say all your information is fact, but I haven't seen it backed up with actual facts as to where exactly you get your specific information. Your information may be correct, factual, and very informative, but I (and again, I can only speak for myself) am more apt to listen/read cbrons posts, or someone with her communication style, than yours. You turn me off, and I know I'm not the only one. You can pay attention to what people say and look at your communication style, or you can continue to communicate the way you do and have most people just turn you off and not listen. I would think you'd want people to hear what you're saying since you're so passionate about this subject, but it seems you're more interested in knowing everything than actually teaching about it.


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## Guest (Jul 23, 2008)

*Anecdotes and arrogance*

What is the plural of anecdote?............................................... Data.

And please, oh please don't cite wikipedia as a source of information. Steven Colbert "saved" elephants from extinction by having enough people go there and input info.


I was thinking about confidence and arrogance the other day when I met a little dog who was just full of himself. He gets in fights with other dogs all the time. The owner sighed and said she wished he wasn't so dominant.

I had her come to my house to meet some dominant dogs. They met the little dog with what seemed like much amusement. No matter what aggressive postures he adopted they either ignored him or tried to engage him in play. 

*These* dominant dogs are truly dominant and very secure. They have no need to start fights with anyone, in fact they are masters at stopping fights. One can do it from 200 paces with a glance. The other does it with play bow after play bow after play bow.

The little dog may have a dominate personality type but he is insecure and we will work on building up his self confidence so he doesn't feel the need to prove a point with every dog he meets.


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## BabyHusky (Jul 21, 2008)

Well...I currently feed my dogs Innova and I've been contemplating switching to raw so I decided to read this thread. And wow.

I see what Bella is saying...there was a lot of information but some of the informants were very pushy. I would like someone to show me politely and factually why raw is better than kibble, etc, besides saying "thats what nature intended" or "if no one can prove me wrong, i'm right"

So before someone goes attacking me saying kibble is the devil, I would like to state that i AM interested in switching but I do not know much information on the subject. It seems as though there are a couple posters that are the "im right, you're wrong" type, and I would appreciate if those posters did not reply to this. There seems to be plenty of posters that have the knowledge and can convey it well. 

Ooh also, a friend of mine is a vet, and of course did inform me that vets get paid to endorse certain foods. She used to feed her dogs raw but switched over to Innova, which is why I started Innova. I have not had the time to sit and discuss the reasoning with her, but I trust her completely with my dogs health and well-being. (Please don't insult my friend saying she's incorrect or doesn't know anything). Thank you!!!


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## RawFedDogs (Jun 16, 2008)

OK, there is a question asked on a chat board somewhere on the internet. 

The questioner asks, "How is A related to C?"

Person 1 answers by saying "A = C"

Person 2 answers by saying "There is no way A = C and person 1 has to be wrong."

Now, the questioner has received no useful information because he has 2 people who give conflicting information. He has no reason to believe one person over the other. He will probably believe person 2 because he made the last statement.

Person 1 answers again by saying, "A must equal C because A=B and B=C. There is no other conclusion than A=C."

Now the questioner has enough information to make a decision or draw a conclusion. So now people attack Person 1 for trying to start a fight and being arrogant and pushy. I don't see it that way. I see that person 1 made another post in order to further clarify his position and give more information to the orginal poster to aid in making the correct decision.


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## bellamicuore (Jun 16, 2008)

RawFedDogs said:


> OK, there is a question asked on a chat board somewhere on the internet.
> 
> The questioner asks, "How is A related to C?"
> 
> ...


No one has said you must be wrong. What people (or I) have a problem with is your delivery. Also, just because you say A=B with no facts to back it up, doesn't make it so. I'm glad you're so sure of yourself and what you're doing obviously works for you and you believe strongly in it. You're just doing a poor job of convincing me. Not because I don't think raw isn't good. Not because I need an excuse not to feed raw. But because you haven't done a good enough job of convincing me. You just turn me off.


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## BabyHusky (Jul 21, 2008)

RawFedDogs...I think you may be getting defensive for no reason. From what I have read, no one has said that you are wrong. It is only natural to question all new information and it seems that when people question, your rebuttle (at times) can seem demeaning. A couple of your posts had the "I can't believe you don't know that, trust me I've been doing this forever, you're wrong" vibe and that doesn't work for everyone.

I think all Bella is asking is for you to be a little less pushy and so insistent. Help us understand rather than pushing it onto us. And maybe you should be a little more open minded? I read somewhere (i think) where you said someone was being close-minded, i could be wrong. This thread was originally about Three's pup and it sounds like Three is doing all she can to make her pup better. In many posts, you clearly stated she was wrong and didn't know what she was doing. She loves her pup more than you do I'm sure, what makes you think she wouldn't do what is best? After all, her other pups are on raw, its not like she's against it.

Just relax a little...its not a class and you're not the lecturer. We're just all here sharing opinions and helping each other.


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## threedognight (Jun 16, 2008)

mabey abrasive is a better word for rawfeddogs posts


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## rannmiller (Jun 27, 2008)

Abrasively passionate.


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## cbrons (Jul 23, 2008)

zentrainer said:


> What is the plural of anecdote?............................................... Data.


wrong. collections of anecdotes are case studies... just stories. data is gathered in a precise and methodological fashion.



zentrainer said:


> And please, oh please don't cite wikipedia as a source of information.


Wikipedia would not be appropriate to cite if I were writing a paper and needed references.. however, it is more than sufficient to explain to you very basic forms of valid vs. invalid argumentation


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## Guest (Jul 24, 2008)

*Lol!*

Check out anecdotes and data in Wikipedia. I'm sure you'll get my answer. It's a very very old joke (but true) that researchers use.

Wiki is a fun place to look up nonsense but I work in the professional pet world and if I am going to talk about animal nutrition with vets, pet food companies, politicians and such I need to be able to cite legitimate sources, which I do.

Even with my clients, if I put forth an argument for feeding one way or the other or adding a supplement I back it up with a legitimate source.


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## cbrons (Jul 23, 2008)

I think my original hypothesis about why the animal got sick from eating raw was correct... I have finished both of Dr. Lonsdale's books (Raw Meaty Bones is very good, very well-documented. Scary but it doesn't surprise me - I see a lot of the same silencing of scientific inquiry everyday). Anyway, in his book he discusses the problems associated with switching a pet from artificial kibble to raw and says two of the most common problems are 1.) the floral makeup of the digestive tract is disturbed because the kibble-fed diets have allowed for the proliferation of unnaturally occurring bacteria while inhibiting the growth of beneficial symbiotic bacteria that a "wild" diet provides. My second guess about antibiotics disturbing the floral makeup of the digestive tract is plausible as well - amoxicillin (penicillin) and various fluroquinolone antibiotics, particularly 1st generation ones, have a propensity to destroy beneficial bacteria that help us break down various foodstuffs.

#1 is a common response to feeding any sort of mammal food they aren't used to getting - humans often respond the same way in similar circumstances but the problem is short and eventually goes away assuming you aren't eating something harmful.


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## threedognight (Jun 16, 2008)

*except...*

I am so glad that you educated yourself but you are still wrong none the less. Sophie has IBD and has had this reaction to MANY foods that I have tried. She has a different system than healthy animals and thus hers cannot be compared with their reactions.


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## gstevens (Jul 29, 2008)

*Organic Pet Food Might Help*

Here's an excerpt you might find useful. 

_Though some pet food manufacturers point to a lack of scientific proof that natural and organic products are indeed healthier or safer, Lummis emphasizes that many natural pet foods and virtually all organic ones contain higher-quality ingredients and are produced in more closely monitored environments. In many cases, this is simply because the companies and production batches are much smaller, he adds._

I can't paste the entire article, but if you want to know more: Organic pet food


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## redmare (Jul 28, 2008)

I'm responding to raw for sophie. My question is what raw food is she being fed. I've found that many dogs are reacting to raw foods because they are foods that have been pumped up with additives of all kinds. Try making sure the meats and veggies are organic in nature. I haven't been able to see on this discussion what the vet said was the cause of her problem. I will be happy to post what reliable breeders are saying to feed our pets


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## threedognight (Jun 16, 2008)

*Sophies diagnosis*

Sophie has the early stages of IBD. Her bowels have only been able to handle fish or duck; neither of which I can afford to feed her raw. I am also unwilling to try something new and risk sending her into another month long sickness.


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## LoveNewfies (Jun 18, 2008)

We work with a dog that has IBD - diagnosed via scope and biopsy. This dog could not eat anything without being on steroids and antibiotics, including the vet prescribed foods.

The owners were very reluctant to feed this dog a raw diet so we created a dehydrated diet for him and he hasn't had an issue since - it's been two years. 

It can be a hard thing to get through, but more often than not, IBD can be resolved with a natural diet, it's just a matter of, yes, repopulating the gut with healthy bacteria and providing the right combination for the dog.

Hopefully you will be able to keep her stabilized.


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## sarah_1349 (Aug 25, 2008)

I don't think you should complain to someone giving you advice, especially if you posted on a site where people are trying to help.


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