# Vet students already indoctrinated against raw



## KittyKat (Feb 11, 2011)

So I go to the University of Guelph - which has one of the 'better' vet schools in Canada (if not the 'best'). I ran into some vet students today and asked them a bunch of questions. 

They don't have any required nutrition classes (they get bits and pieces in other classes, but it's not much) - Hill's offers a seminar on nutrition that they can take - but it's not required.

Hill's gave them a new pet nutrition building. $3 million dollars.... Ironic imo... 'nutrition'.

Iams donates food for them to use, and pays money towards some textbooks. (Hills also does this... and they don't always have their name on it)

They admitted vets generally pick which company they will support and thats about the extent of their food knowlege.

Vets for large animals get many more nutrition classes. 

They both thought raw was a bad idea (well, one recanted and said they thought it could be okay... but it's worse for humans due to evil salmonella). I suggested that "hand washing" could be a great counter to it, and that kibble can also contain it. They mumbled about bones being bad and that they wouldn't suggest it. Was even told one had their dog on a vegetarian diet because they were allergic to meat. 

They seemed to be pretty strong supporters of Hills/Iams, mainly because they give so much to the vet community.

I was a bit taken aback at the lack of nutrition classes that were offered... i pointed out how food has such a huge relation to health and they shrugged and said it was more important for large animals.


-- Has anyone found a vet school that does put an actual emphasis on nutrition? I would have thought by this day and age that these schools would slowly start turning a new page - but it seems at least this one still has it's hands in Hill's pockets.

I was hoping that some newer vets might be more open to raw (and that i could possibly switch) but doesn't appear to be the case.

What if human doctors were given nutrition courses from Coke and various junk food manufacturers?


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## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

Yes, and they continue to make a profit after they graduate, by recommending and selling the food from their offices. A nifty deal for the pet food companies.

So not only are they not taught about nutrition, but there is a certain greed factor involved.


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## tem_sat (Jun 20, 2010)

KittyKat said:


> Hill's offers a seminar on nutrition that they can take - but it's not required.


That is truly pitiful. 

Hopefully they will come to understand that they will need to deal with clients who feed something other than commercial dog food. They need to accept that many of these clients have no intention of feeding processed kibble. To retain these clients, they will need to respect and accept the owner's decision, like it or not, and treat the pets to the best of their ability.

My vet does exactly that, and I am more than satisfied.


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## Dude and Bucks Mamma (May 14, 2011)

I like this thread... It pisses me off, but I like it. Hmm... I shall figure out why and report back on that later...

I think it may involve the fact that I understand where they are coming from. School is expensive. They are getting a deal from these companies that will help them with school and will more than likely continue on afterwards. Does this make it right? Heck no! Do I agree with it? Heck no! In my honest opinion, those who don't understand that nutrition is a HUGE part of any living being's health should not be working in the veterinary field. 

Nutrition should be the number one priority of every dog owner because it can prevent many health issues. It astounds me that a lot of vets don't see that. If parents fed their children nothing but sugary sweets, it would lead to cavities, obesity, diabetes, etc. Or not feeding fruits, veggies, etc can result in possible vitamin deficiencies, and other things. Simply improving the diet can help prevent those things. It is the same with a dog.


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## RawFedDogs (Jun 16, 2008)

I have heard variations of this same story many times over the 10 years i've been researching canine nutrition. I've heard it from vet students of most every vet school in the country. Yes, its an uphill battle to get vets to even consider information about a raw diet or any nutrition that isn't commercial kibble.


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## RCTRIPLEFRESH5 (Feb 11, 2010)

all colleges are money makers. vet schools are no exception


KittyKat said:


> So I go to the University of Guelph - which has one of the 'better' vet schools in Canada (if not the 'best'). I ran into some vet students today and asked them a bunch of questions.
> 
> They don't have any required nutrition classes (they get bits and pieces in other classes, but it's not much) - Hill's offers a seminar on nutrition that they can take - but it's not required.
> 
> ...


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## DaneMama (Jun 27, 2008)

I think vets as a majority have the best intentions- that to take care of people's animals. But in regards to nutrition, more often than not their "Best" intentions cause LOADS of issues secondarily. Of course most vets don't realize this so the harm done isn't intentional. Either way their "best" intentions still suck. 

Its sad that propaganda is used to scare these fresh minds into conforming to the norm. But I honestly believe that the raw movement is making headway into showing the light to uncertain minds- those of regular people and those in the veterinary world. I cannot express my happiness that I work with a vet that asks ME questions about switching her dogs to raw.


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## minnieme (Jul 6, 2011)

I have not heard of any vet school that deviates from this "norm" -- in Canada or America. I'd be curious about European countries, but I have no experience with that area.


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## minnieme (Jul 6, 2011)

DaneMama said:


> But I honestly believe that the raw movement is making headway into showing the light to uncertain minds- those of regular people and those in the veterinary world. I cannot express my happiness that I work with a vet that asks ME questions about switching her dogs to raw.


I agree -- pre-made raw options, as much as a lot of members tend to disagree with them, are great and evident proof that raw is trickling into the average pet owner's mind... which vets will need to understand in order to better understand their growing clientele who feed this way.


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## CavePaws (Jan 25, 2011)

> What if human doctors were given nutrition courses from Coke and various junk food manufacturers?


This quote times a million. I wish the same logic were applied for dogs. Oh, and kids should only be eating TV dinners too. Because they are easy to prepare (microwave) and "balanced" enough to be a meal.


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## minnieme (Jul 6, 2011)

CavePaws said:


> Oh, and kids should only be eating TV dinners too. Because they are easy to prepare (microwave) and "balanced" enough to be a meal.


I know that was laden with irony but it makes me so sad to know that people actually believe that. *sigh*


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## CavePaws (Jan 25, 2011)

LOL. That is why I said balanced enough to be a "meal"....Not a complete diet. XD


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

don't vets have continuing education requirements? or are they allowed to just whither on the vine of the education they got?


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## jdatwood (Apr 13, 2009)

Sounds like we need to start exercising our Freedom of assembly. People protest all kinds of other issues. Why not speak out against this disgusting corruption in the Veterinary industry?

People would lose their minds if they found out their doctors were taught by Coke, Kraft, Sara Lee, General Mills, etc... Why is it OK for our pets though?


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## RawFedDogs (Jun 16, 2008)

jdatwood said:


> People would lose their minds if they found out their doctors were taught by Coke, Kraft, Sara Lee, General Mills, etc.


Are you sure they aren't. I'll bet each of those companies donate a lot of money to colleges. If course I don't know that for sure. :biggrin:


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## jdatwood (Apr 13, 2009)

RawFedDogs said:


> Are you sure they aren't. I'll bet each of those companies donate a lot of money to colleges. If course I don't know that for sure. :biggrin:


It wouldn't surprise me :wink: 

Note I said "if people found out"... never said it wasn't happening :biggrin:


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## JayJayisme (Aug 2, 2009)

KittyKat said:


> What if human doctors were given nutrition courses from Coke and various junk food manufacturers?


Um, they sort of are. The government, agricultural industry, mass media, militant vegan groups, the medical industry, and the pharmaceutical industry all decide, mostly through the process of lobbying, what most doctors learn about nutrition and what they can and can't say. They have very little interest in what is actually right or good for us. They are much more concerned with what is the most profitable and/or what best serves their political agenda. 

The biggest medical and scientific scam ever launched on the American people is the Lipid Hypothesis. It was an observational study riddled with flaws and data heavily manipulated so that its proponent, Dr. Ancel Keyes, could support his beloved theory that high saturated fat diets cause an increase in serum cholesterol, and that high serum cholesterol causes cardiovascular disease. It's "junk science" at its best and his theory and idiotic research has been discredited many times over by real clinical trials all over the world, including right here in the U.S. by the National Institute of Health. Yet how many people today who go to the doctor and discover they have "high cholesterol" will hear your doctor say, "Eat more animal fat", or "You don't need statins", or "Quit eating carbs", or "The definition of 'high cholesterol' is all wrong"? 

They are afraid to tell you the truth because the lipid hypothesis is still being pushed by the government and by the American Heart Association, and these two organizations control over 90% of all research grant money that goes to CVD research. For a lot of doctors and scientists, no grant = no paycheck. They are not interested in the truth so they keep trying to find data to support their lie, which, after billions spent, they never have and never will. The government is only concerned with preserving its precious "food pyramid" (which was recently configured as a plate but is just as stupid) and promoting big AG and big Pharma. The AHA is only concerned with preserving their precious logo licensing deal, which reaps millions every year for them. If everyone suddenly disregarded the lipid hypothesis, the AHA's "Heart-Check Mark" logo would be worthless. It's a scam and all you have to do is FOLLOW THE MONEY. 

And this is just one small example of medical and scientific fraud. It's rampant. In fact, one Harvard University professor estimated that 90% of all scientific studies today are full of errors and incorrect conclusions. Don't even get me started on statins and the pharma industry! They are criminals.

Want to know why most physicians are full of crap when it comes to nutrition? Read this book, _Fat Politics: The Real Story behind America's Obesity Epidemic_ by J. Eric Oliver

You should also read this article by Gary Taubes: What if It's All Been a Big Fat Lie? - New York Times

And if you really want an amusing but serious look at how perverted the "conventional wisdom" on nutrition has become, watch the movie _Fathead_. You can watch it on Hulu for free.

Hulu - Fat Head - Watch the full movie now.

If you think dogs have it bad and that this idiocy is limited to the veterinarian industry, think again. We are all pawns in a giant medical experiment based on junk science and forced upon us by Senator George McGovern and his ilk. The lies have been perpetuated for generations now by the very people we are supposed to be able to trust. These people and entities are so powerful that even today, after all of it has been exposed and discredited, our doctors are still lying to us and dispensing bad dietary advice and toxic drugs. The whole thing makes me sick to my stomach. My dogs want to barf too when I tell them this. :wink:


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## KittyKat (Feb 11, 2011)

JayJayisme said:


> Um, they sort of are. The government, agricultural industry, mass media, militant vegan groups, the medical industry, and the pharmaceutical industry all decide, mostly through the process of lobbying, what most doctors learn about nutrition and what they can and can't say. They have very little interest in what is actually right or good for us. They are much more concerned with what is the most profitable and/or what best serves their political agenda.
> 
> The biggest medical and scientific scam ever launched on the American people is the Lipid Hypothesis. It was an observational study riddled with flaws and data heavily manipulated so that its proponent, Dr. Ancel Keyes, could support his beloved theory that high saturated fat diets cause an increase in serum cholesterol, and that high serum cholesterol causes cardiovascular disease. It's "junk science" at its best and his theory and idiotic research has been discredited many times over by real clinical trials all over the world, including right here in the U.S. by the National Institute of Health. Yet how many people today who go to the doctor and discover they have "high cholesterol" will hear your doctor say, "Eat more animal fat", or "You don't need statins", or "Quit eating carbs", or "The definition of 'high cholesterol' is all wrong"?
> 
> ...


I guess I said that as my doctor has never suggested anything unhealthy. She asks about my diet, suggests healthy things (more fruits and veggies), suggests exercise etc.... whereas my vet pushes crap food the first time I met them. 

...that being said, perhaps that sort of training is more protected in Canada? I'm not sure. I just know any doctor i have met is very pro healthy diet and exercise... they have scary posters about the dangers of pop in their offices as well.


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## JayJayisme (Aug 2, 2009)

KittyKat said:


> I just know any doctor i have met is very pro healthy diet and exercise...


Most of them I know, and I've known many, wouldn't know a "pro healthy diet" if it walked up to them and smacked 'em in the face.


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## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

I do know my doctor doesn't have a big display of Pop Tarts in the front office that he tries to sell me for $10 apiece every time I visit.


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## Tobi (Mar 18, 2011)

xellil said:


> I do know my doctor doesn't have a big display of Pop Tarts in the front office that he tries to sell me for $10 apiece every time I visit.


My dentist gave me a sucker once... and said "see ya later".... that's just good business :lol:


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

RawFedDogs said:


> Are you sure they aren't. I'll bet each of those companies donate a lot of money to colleges. If course I don't know that for sure. :biggrin:


well, i know. and you're right. 

there is no money in healthy people. and there is no money in dead people....

but there is quite a bit of money in sick people....

and sick dogs. 

raw feeders...how much money did your vet make off you this year?

how much money did your vet make from you the year before you started raw?


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## CavePaws (Jan 25, 2011)

magicre said:


> well, i know. and you're right.
> 
> there is no money in healthy people. and there is no money in dead people....
> 
> ...


LOL. I'd like to see us all actually get a thread going on this. Some of us probably really would see marked differences. Indy's leg injury this year made up for the cost of what I _would _have spent having Puck's almost 12 year old teeth get a dental AND having his anal glands expressed every month. Thank god for Raw. I would have been paying for Indi's leg injury and Pucks stinky teeth and butt. Maybe next year my dog won't hurt her leg and everyone can just get routine check ups / prescriptions for hw meds and be done with it. >:]


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## tracydr (Feb 25, 2011)

My vet likes raw. He likes it even more now that he sees how well my dogs are doing on it. He loves the way their teeth, weight, coats and bloodwork look. He can't believe my chihuahua has all but a couple of front teeth, which were lost by self-inflicted trauma when he bit his toenail clippers.
My chihuahua has had two rentals in his entire life and he's thirteen years old. His second dental was done this spring, only because I noticed his breath was a little stinky and his gums slightly red. His previous dental about four years ago! His senior bloodwork was perfect and he had a severe hepatitis with nearly total liver failure two years ago before starting raw which was caused by a shot of steroids given for a bug bite allergic reaction. He was started on a homemade diet while sick and then converted to a raw diet, all with the help of his liver specialist, who was wonderful. She was not a homeopath but used some non-conventional medicine, in addition to traditional medicine.
Anyway, my vet doesn't ever push the raw diet but he certainly isn't against it. He knows I'm a doctor and he doesn't try to talk me into crap kibble. In fact, I don't think he's ever talked to me about dog food at all. He's always recommended bones, although my chihuahua has two cracked molars, probably from when I used to use big cow bones for chew toys. He believes in bones, chicken, pork or otherwise.


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## sozzle (May 18, 2011)

The city I live in has New Zealand's only vet school (Massey University,Palmerston North). God knows what they teach them but I would imagine it would be the same as in other parts of the world, ie not much in nutrition and push the dried stuff. I do actually know a few vets as friends and acquaintances but haven't broached raw feeding with them.
Recently when I took Stanley to the eye vet specialist (he has Pannus) there were 3 final year students observing and it was sad to see that they were wearing shirts that said 'Hills Science Diet'. Bloody Hell I thought, this is scary. I hadn't at that time gone full raw though but was rapidly turning away from other forms of food but knew he was never going to eat that crappy kibble. I also wanted to ask them if they had studied nutrition but didn't get the opportunity.
My own vet has never asked what I feed him but I will passionately talk about it when the opportunity arises. She doesn't push vaccinations and unnecessary procedures and my last check up only cost NZ$26 and lots of good advice for an abcessed leg.


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## cprcheetah (Jul 14, 2010)

In a perfect world there would be Nutritionists for Animals. My mom actually goes to one for herself. How cool would that be to have a Nutritionist that was actually knowledgable in the requirements and proper nutrition for dogs?


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## KittyKat (Feb 11, 2011)

JayJayisme said:


> Most of them I know, and I've known many, wouldn't know a "pro healthy diet" if it walked up to them and smacked 'em in the face.


That's pretty sad... especially since there is so much information out there! Perhaps things are different here since we have universal health care... so it's in their best interests to promote healthy eating since they do not run for profit.

Vets however are for profit.


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

KittyKat said:


> That's pretty sad... especially since there is so much information out there! Perhaps things are different here since we have universal health care... so it's in their best interests to promote healthy eating since they do not run for profit.
> 
> Vets however are for profit.


i ask this with no sarcasm or offence, but do they know what's healthy eating?

i ask because we have a pyramid, which i'm not so sure is the best way to eat....and we have so many opinions about what we should eat....

from paleo to vegan...and everything in between....

as a former doctor, my vet and i have great respect for each other, but when we meet outside his office and he's walking his dogs and i'm walking mine to a pee spot....

his dog looks terrible with missing patches of hair and terrible teeth and my dogs look like....well most dogs on here....and yet he 'doesn't have time to look into raw feeding' and really doesn't agree with it.


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## hmbutler (Aug 4, 2011)

magicre said:


> his dog looks terrible with missing patches of hair and terrible teeth and my dogs look like....well most dogs on here....and yet he 'doesn't have time to look into raw feeding' and really doesn't agree with it.


thats when you say "aww, your dog looks like he has an allergy of some sort, poor baby... do you think it's from his diet???" :lol:


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

hmbutler said:


> thats when you say "aww, your dog looks like he has an allergy of some sort, poor baby... do you think it's from his diet???" :lol:


he tells me, in depth, about his dog and how he can't get hair to grow and this poor dog suffers from this and that and blah blah blah....

we've had lengthy discussions about his psychotropic drugs and dosages and his neuroses and his dog's physical ailments...

and guess what..he is still taking his drugs and he's still feeding his dog science diet. sigh.

the reason i stay with him...is he's got that diagnostic nose.....and i believe you're born with that..and he respects the diet i have my dogs on....and tries, in his limited way, to work with me....

believe me, he works hard, because the first thing he wants to do, of course, is go to a bland diet or whatever is in his playbook.


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## gorge77 (May 13, 2011)

Vet students already indoctrinated against raw. and vets have successfully indoctrinated many dog owners against raw as well.

i hear people talk about raw not being a balanced diet all the time. seriously, who is to decide what is balanced, & what is not? i'm not even eating balanced meals myself. i don't calculate the % of vitamins, minerals to ensure that all my meals are balanced. 

so why dogs?


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## RawFedDogs (Jun 16, 2008)

gorge77 said:


> i hear people talk about raw not being a balanced diet all the time. seriously, who is to decide what is balanced, & what is not? i'm not even eating balanced meals myself. i don't calculate the % of vitamins, minerals to ensure that all my meals are balanced.


Whenever a vet tells me that a PMR diet isn't balanced, I say, "Thats good to know. Tell me what nutrients my dogs isn't getting and I'll be sure to include it in the diet." Not one has ever been able to name one EXCEPT one said calcium until I explained how much bone is in the diet and that shut him up. Ask the vet what nutritional deficiency your dog is showing and he won't be able to.


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## Imgliniel (Sep 1, 2011)

To whoever mentioned nutritionists for animals, they do exist, but not for dogs that I have found. I have one or my horses, lol. She has a PHD in large animal nutrition. Oh and you want to hear something shocking? Corn is rally bad for cows and horses too!!! haha. In fact I had a horse who had been fed a very corn heavy diet most of his young life and by the time he came to me he was insulin resistant. He had to be on a very low carb low starch no sugar diet with special supplements the rest of his life.

As the the indocrinated against raw thing. This is about a cat, but still illustrates the point. When I trapped my feral Lancelot I took him in to be snipped. My normal vet at the clinic wasn't there but I was like "I am pretty sure anyone here can handle fixing a tom cat lol". So we got him sedated and another vet fixed him he got his basic required vaccines (I Vaccinate once when young then not again or titters if in doubt) and they removed a broken tooth. He had tapeworm so I was sent home with a wormer. The vet asked me if the cat was eating well for me and I said yeah he eats great he gats some raw and some holistic canned. He said, I quote "Well you could just feed him dry food, it's cheaper" *facepalm* After I got him tamed I went back in for a checkup and my regular was there. She raved about his coat and how gorgeous his teeth were, etc, and when I told her he got raw and holistic canned she said how great it was I was able to get him on raw because alot of cats once hooked on kibble are extremely difficult or impossible to switch. So there is hope out there!

Sorry for the novel. edited because I can't spell.


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## Cliffdog (Dec 30, 2010)

I wouldn't say there are *no* canine nutritionist, but they are few and far between... I found that out when researching how to get into the field myself. Most people who claim to be "canine nutritionists" are just food company puppets.


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## tem_sat (Jun 20, 2010)

This is UC Davis' ACVN program: UC Davis School of Vet Med:

It's titled "Clinical Nutrition". Board certification would be in "veterinary" nutrition. Obviously covering a scope larger than "canine" nutrition.

Added:

Why does this not suprise me...

On the subject of Vegetarian and Vegan Diets for Pets as seen here: Vegetarian and Vegan Diets for Dogs and Cats

board certified veterinary nutritionist, Cailin Heinze, VMD, who is also an assistant professor of nutrition at Tufts Cummings School of Veterinary Medicine says:

"For dogs, certainly vegetarian and vegan diets can be done, but they need to be done very, very carefully. There is a lot of room for error, and these diets probably are not as appropriate as diets that contain at least some animal protein," 

"_probably are not as appropriate_" ...oh really?


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## JayJayisme (Aug 2, 2009)

Imgliniel said:


> Oh and you want to hear something shocking? Corn is rally bad for cows and horses too!!!


Here's the ultimate corn/grain paradox.

Meat producers take perfectly healthy cattle and feed them grains, mostly corn, because they know it is guaranteed to fatten them up. Human nutritionists, the government, AHA, doctors, etc. who advocate low fat diets are essentially telling you to eat more grains. In the U.S., the bulk of these grain-heavy foods are loaded with corn. So farmers use corn to fatten up mammals, and the "experts" tell us humans to eat corn to get thinner. Do you see a problem here?

I was listening to an interview of Dr. Al Sears recently who was talking about CVD studies and how perverted they can get. He said there was a study being conducted (can't recall where) that was trying to connect saturated fat consumption with heart disease. They were using dogs in the study and feeding them high amounts of meat and animal fat, but they couldn't get a single dog to develop arterial blockage no matter how much fat they fed them. Disappointed with their results, since they clearly had an agenda are were not interested at all in the actual science, they switched the animals to rabbits. Sure enough, after feeding them enough animal fat, the poor little herbivores developed massive arterial plaque. So the good scientists came to the obvious conclusion; saturated fat causes heart disease in humans, and dogs are incapable of developing heart disease - two completely false conclusions.

As Dr. Sears pointed out, if you feed a carnivore like a rabbit, you will give it CVD. If you feed a herbivore like a wolf, it will develop CVD. All animals, including humans, need to eat a species-appropriate diet. Of course, politics and junk science has totally distorted the definition of that in the mainstream, whether for humans, pets, or livestock.


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## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

At one time, I was responsible for doing the fattening of the cattle after they were brought in from the pasture and before they went to slaughter. This was a ranch that advertised itself as all natural. I guess the cattle did eat grass most of its life.

But the last few weeks, I gave them alot of antibiotics and alot more corn. A cow can gain at 8-10 pounds per day if you do it right. They start out with mostly hay, and then corn is added slowly until they are eating 100% corn. If you can add a couple hundred pounds to a steer, that really ups the profit. 

It really opened my eyes to what corn really does - they sure don't fatten cattle or pigs on rice or wheat.


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## JayJayisme (Aug 2, 2009)

xellil said:


> ...they sure don't fatten cattle or pigs on rice or wheat.


Actually, some producers do. All it takes is a strong insulin response to make the animal fat. Corn, rice, what, soy, oats, all do this but corn is the cheapest and most efficient, so it is used the most often. The object is to make a 14-month old steer as big as possible and with as much commercial yield as it would normally take for a 4 or 5 year old steer fed only grass.

The saddest thing is that the livers of many cattle do not survive this process for whatever reason, probably from being overworked from trying to suddenly convert massive amounts of carbs to fat for storage. A large percentage of beef livers are actually unsuitable for human consumption after the animal is grain finished. Many are in such deplorable condition that they can only be used for non-human uses, such as pet food, or not even that. I even heard from someone inside the industry that some actually burst inside the animal because they are so abscessed after being grain fed for 3 or 4 months.

So if even a cow can't eat corn safely, it seems hypocritical to say corn is good for humans, and downright outrageous to claim it's good for dogs.


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

JayJayisme said:


> Actually, some producers do. All it takes is a strong insulin response to make the animal fat. Corn, rice, what, soy, oats, all do this but corn is the cheapest and most efficient, so it is used the most often. The object is to make a 14-month old steer as big as possible and with as much commercial yield as it would normally take for a 4 or 5 year old steer fed only grass.
> 
> The saddest thing is that the livers of many cattle do not survive this process for whatever reason, probably from being overworked from trying to suddenly convert massive amounts of carbs to fat for storage. A large percentage of beef livers are actually unsuitable for human consumption after the animal is grain finished. Many are in such deplorable condition that they can only be used for non-human uses, such as pet food, or not even that. I even heard from someone inside the industry that some actually burst inside the animal because they are so abscessed after being grain fed for 3 or 4 months.
> 
> So if even a cow can't eat corn safely, it seems hypocritical to say corn is good for humans, and downright outrageous to claim it's good for dogs.


well, cows aren't humans nor are they dogs.....but that's not the point, is it.

corn, in and of itself, has a toxin in it called aflotoxin....which is responsible for liver cancer in rats....that's been proven but with any medicine, proof is a relative word....
http://www.extension.iastate.edu/publications/pm1800.pdf

what happens is the humans get the 'good' corn packaged all nice and pretty and the animals get the stuff that's been sitting....

the sad part is what jay is saying about their livers....since they are force fed corn and soy, most likely.....either their livers explode or have severe fatty liver disease or are cancerous....

what i find interesting is that organic free range (all those buzz words) chickens are fed a vegetarian diet, and it says so on the packages i've read....in parentheses, corn and soy....

aren't they the two ingredients that we don't want our dogs to have...?

so, that sixteen dollar chicken is fed the same diet as the cheaper non enhanced one.

i don't know if we will be feeding chicken again to our dogs....and i can tell you right now...i will never eat chicken again...

i try very hard to buy grass fed beef...and i'd love to find a farmer, like natalie and jon, who feed their chickens the species appropriate diet and treat them as they should be treated...omnivourous, bugs and mice included.

we were in a whole foods store the other day...and this guy was promoting his own meat....as being grass fed....so i went up and talked to him...seems he left out the fact that he grass fed the animal until 800 pounds...the last two hundred pounds were soy and corn.

sigh.


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## RawFedDogs (Jun 16, 2008)

magicre said:


> we were in a whole foods store the other day...and this guy was promoting his own meat....as being grass fed....so i went up and talked to him...seems he left out the fact that he grass fed the animal until 800 pounds...the last two hundred pounds were soy and corn.
> 
> sigh.


My brother owns around 100 head of cattle and has for 40 years (not the same cows, hehe). When he gets ready to slaughter one for his own consumption will "put up" the animal and feed it a grain diet to fatten it up. I don't know exactly what he feeds because I haven't talked to him about it in years but he swears it makes the meat taste better.

As a side note, I think most all cattle in the USA are rasied the way this man does. They are raised grassfed in a pasture then bought by a feed lot and fattened up before selling to the slaughter house.


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

RawFedDogs said:


> My brother owns around 100 head of cattle and has for 40 years (not the same cows, hehe). When he gets ready to slaughter one for his own consumption will "put up" the animal and feed it a grain diet to fatten it up. I don't know exactly what he feeds because I haven't talked to him about it in years but he swears it makes the meat taste better.
> 
> As a side note, I think most all cattle in the USA are rasied the way this man does. They are raised grassfed in a pasture then bought by a feed lot and fattened up before selling to the slaughter house.


well, the corn gives beef that wonderful fatty marbling effect...who doesn't like that 

when i was growing up in america, we ate meat that was fed grass.....i mean, who ARE those four legged holsteins, black angus, etc....out on the range of thousands of miles of highway on both sides of the endless fence cross country?

and it tasted wonderful...considering i was too young to remember meat in russia or even if we could afford it. 

and it was corn finished.....i doubt it was corn and soy finished, which i believe is what is going on now.....and, since the FDA came in an slowed down the antibiotics and hormones allowed.....the meat is tasting better....

i think the feed lots concern people....but i've seen pics of chicago where the steers are being unloaded from all the trains....and corralled into feed lots or right to the slaughter house....i wonder if anyone complained then...

i wouldn't have minded if the guy had said his animals were grass fed, corn finished....but he was charging an arm and a leg for what i see as regular meat. that's what bothered me.


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## Khan (Jan 17, 2010)

Well I agree that most vets have the support of one or more food companies. Otherwise you would not find any displays of food for sale within their offices. But I also think that there are vets out there that agree with raw; but because of today's society, they may not be as forthcoming to offer the info. If you are a vet and you are talking with some yahoo of an owner about raw, and that person doesn't listen, or take your advice on the proper way to feed, the results could be devastating for the dog and for your practice. 
I know we all tread very lightly when it comes to telling the vets what type of diets our animals are on. Maybe we should be doing the opposite. Maybe we should be telling the vets at every chance we get. We may actually find out that they do agree and are much more willing to accept the diet then we give them credit for. But because most people look at a dog as "Just a Dog", rather then a part of their family as we all do, vets are choosing the path of least resistance.
Now don't get me wrong; I'm sure there are a ton of them that have No idea. I guess I just want to believe that some of them are offering raw but it's "Behind Closed Doors"
Just some Food for Thought!!


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## KittyKat (Feb 11, 2011)

Khan said:


> Well I agree that most vets have the support of one or more food companies. Otherwise you would not find any displays of food for sale within their offices. But I also think that there are vets out there that agree with raw; but because of today's society, they may not be as forthcoming to offer the info. If you are a vet and you are talking with some yahoo of an owner about raw, and that person doesn't listen, or take your advice on the proper way to feed, the results could be devastating for the dog and for your practice.
> I know we all tread very lightly when it comes to telling the vets what type of diets our animals are on. Maybe we should be doing the opposite. Maybe we should be telling the vets at every chance we get. We may actually find out that they do agree and are much more willing to accept the diet then we give them credit for. But because most people look at a dog as "Just a Dog", rather then a part of their family as we all do, vets are choosing the path of least resistance.
> Now don't get me wrong; I'm sure there are a ton of them that have No idea. I guess I just want to believe that some of them are offering raw but it's "Behind Closed Doors"
> Just some Food for Thought!!


I agree. That's why I told them I fed my dog raw. They didn't have any good response to that... I mean suggesting I'd get salmonella from it? I told them anyone who works with raw meat faces that slight possibility and that simple hand-washing solves that problem. I kind of feel like i'm in a unique position going to this university and having access to all of these students on a daily basis. Perhaps I can convert one or two to the dark side (it's tastier) by just talking to them... especially first years who haven't had the idea that corn is a great food for dogs because Hill's says so ingrained into their heads.

I can see why they tend to trust Hills, they throw so much money at their students "for their well being"... and school is expensive. It seems to them that this company is reaching out and giving back to the community... much like Purina does at dog shows, Royal Canine does to breeders and so on. They just don't see the ulterior motives behind their actions.

I should drag my dog around the OVC so they can ooh and aww about how buff she is.









Can't get those big muscles without meat.


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## Noodlesmadison (Sep 18, 2011)

My vet told me to not feed raw. I didn't listen because we don't always listen to OUR doctors - they don't always have the best opinion. So I feed raw and I don't tell my vet about it because I don't need a lecture from somebody who doesn't know what they are talking about.
I've been told to change vets, but this vet has saved my dogs LIFE on numerous occasions and I cannot forget that. They have one a lot of surgeries on all my animals and I trust them with that so I will take nutrition into my own hands with the help of forums like this one (yay!) and research that's been done.


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