# Worst. Training Class. EVER.



## BrownieM

So, tonight I took Tiger to his first obedience class. He is 7 months old and I have owned him for exactly 1 month. Background info, because he is going to be shown in conformation, I am opting NOT to teach him "sit" until after he's done showing. (Well, actually, I could teach him "sit", the idea is for his rock-star self stack to be his "default" behavior for bait/treats.) Also, I cannot use a nylon buckle collar. Instead, I have to use a large satin neck protector (no big deal, because I don't intend to use my dog's collar to control him. I plan to use treats, clicking and praise to control him. The collar is just there in case of an emergency. In fact, I train him off-lead at home.) Other than that, I am going to obedience class to teach my dog stay, down, wait, leave it, touch, loose leash walking, etc. etc.

Anyway, about class. 


First, I get there and there's a mix of dogs in prong collars, dogs in buckle collars, there's a dog aggressive dog, a fear biter and some regular people. The class starts and we all introduce ourselves and our goals. She sees Tiger's neck protector and says, "M'am, does your dog have a CHAIN on his neck?" I said, "Well, it's a satin neck protector and it is the only thing that can be on his neck. It's this or nothing." (And I smiled real big.) She did NOT like it one bit, which is hilarious because she had dogs with PRONG collars on and Tiger's large satin neck protector with a tiny chain on the outside, was just too much for her.

Anyway, the class was a weird combobulation of clicker training, prong collars, corrections and praise. She had us teach our dog weird things like jumping up to take a treat out of our hand (um, no thanks?)  to the command of "grab it". She didn't like that I didn't want to teach Tiger sit and basically said she didn't know how I could teach him "down" without a sit first. She had one idea (doing a "bridge" under my leg) and it didn't work. She just said, "try it at home maybe it will work better there." :wacko: I'm fairly certain that it IS possible to teach a dog "down" without sitting first.

After class I approached her, apologized about Tiger's *satin* collar and explained that I had no interest in using a prong collar on my dog. I told her I thought this was going to be a purely positive class and she said, "well, it's your 85 dollars, you can make it purely positive if you want."

I got my money back. Yikes.

I'm going back to the Greater St. Louis Training Club, they are who I trained Millie with as a pup. They use purely clicker training and it taught Millie everything she knows. (I did go on to use a prong collar with a different trainer, but honestly, she learned everything she knows, though less reliable in her performance of those tasks, without a prong. I intend to train Tiger purely positively.) 

Has anyone else had HORRIBLE training class experience? I mean I have NO idea where this lady got her "training" credentials. She was dumb as rocks.


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## jdatwood

WOW, who was this class through?

We took Akasha to a Petsmart class and ended up dropping out because she was so far ahead of every dog in the class we felt there was nothing for her to learn....


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## Scarlett_O'

WOW that sounds like a DISASTER class from hadies!!! 

Eek!!! Good luck with the other training center!!


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## BrownieM

jdatwood said:


> WOW, who was this class through?
> 
> We took Akasha to a Petsmart class and ended up dropping out because she was so far ahead of every dog in the class we felt there was nothing for her to learn....


WestInn Kennels Training


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## werecatrising

The first training class I had experience was several yeas ago with my dog, Angelus. When I called about the class I asked if the instructor used only positive reinforcement. She sounded insulted and said yes. The first class we attended consisted of walking in a circle with a bunch of dogs and yanking on the leash any time the dog did anything. I lasted through about half the class before we left.


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## DaneMama

Trainers like this call themselves "balanced" trainers. Balanced meaning they have a good balance between positive reinforcement and punishment. When really their class would be so much more effective if they cut out all the punishers and went completely positive. 

There is definitely a way to teach him down without sit first. Its sad she doesn't know how.....

To get a sit, merely go in a low distraction room, with Tiger on leash, sit in a chair, step on the leash giving him just enough to go comfortably from his collar to the ground (this isn't to pull him to the ground, its just to decrease his room for distraction) and wait. The moment he lays down (usually the first few times are out of boredom) click and treat. Then go and sit somewhere else, sit, step on the leash and wait. Again, repeating the click and treat the moment he lays down. Soon enough he will understand that when you are sitting down, he needs to "settle" which later on you can name whatever you'd like. Eventually put a name to it. This is called shaping :thumb:


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## sozzle

We haven't yet been able to teach our dog to 'sit' but we easily taught him 'down'. In fact when they sit their bums don't actually touch the ground. Ex racing greyhounds are not taught this and don't find it easy to sit or find it particularly comfortable - we are still trying though. Sounds like an awful class!


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## SpooOwner

Yikes. Glad you got your money back. A friend took classes at the local chapter of the AKC, and they actually hit the dogs. She did not get her money back.

Another option for a down without a sit: You can teach a "down" the same way agility trainers teach "table." Basically, you lure your dog into what looks like a play-bow by holding a treat on the ground below his nose. Tiger will drop his front half to the ground, like a play bow, then his back half, so it looks like he's crouching. When he's comfortable crouching, he'll flop into a nice down. I can't seem to find a good video on youtube, but I'm sure it's there.


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## FL Cracker

Well...I was extremely fortunate 13 years ago to meed a gal through out vet...(Liz Knight)who taught me everything I know about training. That and the Monks of New Skete.
When we got out new pup CoCo, I started training at 8 weeks...and by the time we got to the "Star Puppy Program" at out local dog club....she was months ahead of everyone. It was funny that everyone thought I spent 8 hours a day training CoCo...when all we were doing was 10 minute sessions a few times a day. I only did the Star program for the certificate...it was pretty redundant...how to groom...collars...and the like. Now were in basic obedience...and on Monday just started to "Finish" your dog...we have been finishing for months now...so early training has paid off big time. We have an excellent trainer...and once she realized where each dog was...she challenged each dog according to their ability...which is great.

I have seen some of the classes at Petsmart...no thanks. Overpriced and done in a 12 -14' ring. To the OP...I don't follow every training tip either...I'm not going to make my dog learn something that I don't use...for example...stay...versus wait. When I tell my dog to wait...I don't care if it's for 3 minutes...or 30...they are not to break until I free them. If you want to teach your dog to down...and not sit...that's your choice...don't let anyone tell you different.
I can't imagine that class you were at...glad you got out and your money back. I stick with the local dog clubs as well....were fortunate to have 2 great clubs locally.


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## Maxy24

Glad you got your money back, I've found prong collars are getting VERY popular. I'd say half of all dogs that I see are wearing them.

In my junior year of high school I was going to do an internship with a trainer in a local pet store. I went for my first day (it was a puppy class) and as soon as I saw him I got worried (which is wrong, I know). I find there are less positive male trainers in general but he just seemed so arrogant that I could tell he wasn't a gentle guy, he just reminded me of Cesar Millan so much, down to his stupid little goatee. He started talking to me, telling me they used positive methods and "compulsion". He told me they start with treats and then start using "training" collars on the dogs who need it. He told me that once he had to use a choke chain on a 12 weeks old puppy because he wouldn't settle down.

The first lesson of class was how to alpha roll your dog. He said he lets his dogs out in the yard every morning and his female Shepherd goes and dominates the rest of his dogs. When she's done he walks out and throws her on her back so she remembers she might be alpha of those dogs but he's alpha of her. Yeah. It was a long class. 

One of the people in the class, an elderly man with a Ridgeback puppy, refused to alpha roll. The trainer laughed at him and made some remark I don't remember. The man asked him if he'd always had some older brother pushing him around or something. The trainer just ignored him.

Then the people in front of me were trying to get their Doxie to sit. The dog would jump up a lot of the time but every once in awhile he would sit. I don't know if you've ever seen a dog with really muscular thighs, but this pup had them. At one point he DID sit but his bottom didn't touch the ground because of his giant thighs. One of the owners rewarded him and the other said he wasn't sitting. So they asked the trainer who came over and said he wasn't sitting all the way and preceded to try and push his butt into a sit. The dog, like most dogs, just resisted the pressure. He pushed and pushed until the little dog finally collapsed into a sit on his hip (further illustrating that he had been sitting as far down as he could with a square sit). They struggled for a while longer as the trainer tried to make the dog sit again and then the trainer just said to keep trying and left them. The people continued and the dog kept sitting without his butt on the ground and didn't get rewarded. 

Then they tried loose leash walking. They were to walk up and down an aisle in the store with a loose leash, rewarding with treats or toys (but also using them as a bribe, not a reward). He'd use the treat and bring it from his face to the dog's mouth. He then said this showed the dog you were in charge because it reminded the puppy of his mom regurgitating food for him...
They each did this twice. Then he said no more treats, walk up and down and if the leash tightens jerk on the leash and pull them back into position. With every behavior they learned that day he wanted them to switch from treats for doing it to molding or corrections for not doing it in the class, THE DAY THE DOG FIRST LEARNED THE BEHAVIOR. 

Then one guy had a dog who would bark. The trainer told him to lift the dog by his scruff so his front feet came up and shake him when he barked. By the end of the class the puppy crouched and shied away from the man when his hand reached over his head.

The trainer said if any of their dogs are really resisting the sit training to come to him at the end of class and ask about a training collar.

Then he talked about proper praise. Praise for sit is three pats in the shoulder. Praise for a down is one long stroke along the back. Don't do any more or you might excite the dog (because of course when rewarding a dog you'd hate for him to become excited).

So I left feeling ill and nearly in tears and had to quit the internship, there was no way I was going back. I mean if that was the first class I can only imagine that the corrections get way worse and the domination/alpha spew gets more ridiculous.


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## whiteleo

Wow, pretty sad crap! Glad I found a decent place first try when Cayenne was a puppy, of course I knew not to go to Petsmart or Petco. Tails a Waggin is probably one of the best positive reinforcement recruitors out there, they sponsor so many things that are dog focused in the area.

Too many people want to be dog trainers when only a handful should be, pretty much just like anything else in this world, you really have to know how to weed through the bad ones. Glad you got your money back.


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## BrownieM

Maxy24 said:


> Glad you got your money back, I've found prong collars are getting VERY popular. I'd say half of all dogs that I see are wearing them.
> 
> I


Well, and I am the first to admit that I have used prong collars and am actually not totally opposed them in general, but right now that's not what I am looking for. I don't believe in introducing concepts using a prong collar and I don't like that dogs had them on. I was expecting a different type of environment. Perhaps this is the perfect training class for the other people who were there, but it isn't for me. I want a more relaxed environment where learning is FUN. I don't think that using a prong collar is the best method for Tiger, either. Finally, I just didn't like the instructor's methods - period. Teaching loose leash walking by basically yanking the dog behind you if they pulled in front. Um, no? I taught Millie loose leash walking by clicking and treating when she naturally loose leashed walked until she got the point, which was FAST. Tiger is a VERY sensitive dog, which is why I am planning to use strictly positive reinforcement with him. Prong collars did work for Millie (I only used them after I introduced basic behaviors with purely positive training) without a noticeable "shut down" from her. Tiger - I *know* a prong collar would cause him to shut down. He just wants to do things right.

Tiger is too smart for those punitive actions. Trainers like this are what give prong collars an even WORSE rep. than they deserve. I have seen some people use prong collars *better* than this lady. (I know most people on this forum disagree with prong collars, and this lady demonstrated to me WHY so many people hate them so much.)


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## KlaMarie

Oh geez, that sounds horrible, glad you got your money back! I've only gone into one training class "blind", and that's because I knew this woman had been through a Karen Pryor (sp?) training school, and luckily she was a very good pet dog trainer. Every other trainer I've used, I like to just observe before ever bringing my dog out. 

I agree with you about the prong collars, it all depends on the dog and your training methods. I've seen old school trainers just jerk their dogs around on prong collars, the dog isn't learning anything!!! But then I've seen some very good trainers use a prong, it is like night and day difference. One trainer I know doesn't even use the prong as a correction, he has conditioned his dogs to respond to a prong collar with increased drive. And it wasn't that he was hurting them, or putting them into defense drive. The dog just knew that the sensation of the prong on his neck meant he was supposed to tap into more drive--the trainer used this for focused heeling.


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## committed2excellence

BrownieM said:


> So, tonight I took Tiger to his first obedience class. He is 7 months old and I have owned him for exactly 1 month. Background info, because he is going to be shown in conformation, I am opting NOT to teach him "sit" until after he's done showing. (Well, actually, I could teach him "sit", the idea is for his rock-star self stack to be his "default" behavior for bait/treats.) Also, I cannot use a nylon buckle collar. Instead, I have to use a large satin neck protector (no big deal, because I don't intend to use my dog's collar to control him. I plan to use treats, clicking and praise to control him. The collar is just there in case of an emergency. In fact, I train him off-lead at home.) Other than that, I am going to obedience class to teach my dog stay, down, wait, leave it, touch, loose leash walking, etc. etc.
> 
> Anyway, about class.
> 
> 
> First, I get there and there's a mix of dogs in prong collars, dogs in buckle collars, there's a dog aggressive dog, a fear biter and some regular people. The class starts and we all introduce ourselves and our goals. She sees Tiger's neck protector and says, "M'am, does your dog have a CHAIN on his neck?" I said, "Well, it's a satin neck protector and it is the only thing that can be on his neck. It's this or nothing." (And I smiled real big.) She did NOT like it one bit, which is hilarious because she had dogs with PRONG collars on and Tiger's large satin neck protector with a tiny chain on the outside, was just too much for her.
> 
> Anyway, the class was a weird combobulation of clicker training, prong collars, corrections and praise. She had us teach our dog weird things like jumping up to take a treat out of our hand (um, no thanks?)  to the command of "grab it". She didn't like that I didn't want to teach Tiger sit and basically said she didn't know how I could teach him "down" without a sit first. She had one idea (doing a "bridge" under my leg) and it didn't work. She just said, "try it at home maybe it will work better there." :wacko: I'm fairly certain that it IS possible to teach a dog "down" without sitting first.
> 
> After class I approached her, apologized about Tiger's *satin* collar and explained that I had no interest in using a prong collar on my dog. I told her I thought this was going to be a purely positive class and she said, "well, it's your 85 dollars, you can make it purely positive if you want."
> 
> I got my money back. Yikes.
> 
> I'm going back to the Greater St. Louis Training Club, they are who I trained Millie with as a pup. They use purely clicker training and it taught Millie everything she knows. (I did go on to use a prong collar with a different trainer, but honestly, she learned everything she knows, though less reliable in her performance of those tasks, without a prong. I intend to train Tiger purely positively.)
> 
> Has anyone else had HORRIBLE training class experience? I mean I have NO idea where this lady got her "training" credentials. She was dumb as rocks.


As someone who participates in competitive obedience, sport and conformation I wanted to give you some food for thought. Don't take it as me laying down the law; just my experience over the years. The idea that a conformation dog can't be taught serious obedience and that it will interfere is a myth. Look at the dog in my signature. He is 9 months old and I am trying to finish up his GR Champ in the next few weeks. However, I have videos of him at 10 weeks with me clicking and treating. His obedience is very strong. We work that separately. When it's time for conformation training, I slip on his little lead and he knows what time it is. He stacks well and walks(not focus heels) along side me with no problem and his gait is very different than it would be if he were heeling. The dogs are smart enough to multi task and they know when to wear various "hats" at the proper time. You should try teaching the difference in the disciplines. Make sure that you MARK with voice or clicker the proper behavior for each discipline so that the message is clear. Regarding your obedience class, many group classes are a cluster__. 10 different breeds and ages and the trainer trying to instruct the same way. When I do classes I won't take more then 3 or 4 at a time and I need to know background. Sounds like you may have found a better option. As for the collar issue, you were on the right track when saying that you didn't want the collar to be the way that you controlled your dog. Good point. That being said, prong, flat, electronic, or the one that you used; they are all training tools. Don't sensitize a dog to the tool and you will be fine.. Be fair and be consistent. Do realize that just because you trained one dog with a certain tool doesn't mean that you will be able to train EVERY dog that way. I try to use as much pure positive as I can. However, some dogs can't be trained 100% under that system. Bottom line, I want 100s in Open so if I need to use pressure at the right time I will. Just remember that every dog is different. Hope this helps.


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## Mokapi

DaneMama said:


> To get a sit, merely go in a low distraction room, with Tiger on leash, sit in a chair, step on the leash giving him just enough to go comfortably from his collar to the ground (this isn't to pull him to the ground, its just to decrease his room for distraction) and wait. The moment he lays down (usually the first few times are out of boredom) click and treat. Then go and sit somewhere else, sit, step on the leash and wait. Again, repeating the click and treat the moment he lays down. Soon enough he will understand that when you are sitting down, he needs to "settle" which later on you can name whatever you'd like. Eventually put a name to it. This is called shaping :thumb:


Sorry to hijack the thread for a moment, but I have a question on that...it's something I'd like to train Chip to do. I watched a video where the trainer said to not do any clicking (we use "yes" instead of a clicker), and to only treat when the dog isn't looking at you so it seems like treats are "falling from the sky". That's all well and good, and the minute Chip looks away after he lays down, I treat him. Problem is, he knows exactly where that treat came from, and after the first treat, he won't stop looking at me except to look at his paws for more treats. After that first one, he also won't stay laying down for longer than about 10 seconds before hopping up. Any ideas how I can correct that? I want him to lay down whenever I stop moving for a decent period of time- we have trouble with him sitting after I stop while heeling. 

ANYWAY, to the OP, I took Chip to an advanced/agility class and it was a NIGHTMARE. Everyone but us had on prong collars, and when we got there they were working on agility...there was this extremely overzealous woman who had two gorgeous shepherds, and she was talking to them like they were unruly teenagers: "IF YOU DON'T KNOCK IT OFF AND GET MOVING, I'M GOING TO BEAT YOUR ASS", etc., and was jerking them around. She was yelling the jump commands- they were jumping just fine, and tried to go over the jumps with one of her dogs and knocked the whole thing over. She startled one of the shepherds enough with that move that he yelped and darted forward and jerked her into an endcap, and she wrenched him back towards her and smacked his butt into a sit. The rest of the class kept going on around them like it was normal...the instructor was super into the alpha stuff, and there wasn't any positive reinforcement. She said that the reward was no more pressure on the leash. When a dog wouldn't sit and she wanted it to, she'd pull up on the prong collar like the Cesar guy until the dog half fell/half sat. You could hear them struggling to be able to breathe through the pressure. I went to two classes, but after she told me she recommended I put a prong collar on my dog, I left. I've done a basic and an intermediate course through PetSmart, but Chip knew too much to learn anything and I only paid for the intermediate because I was under the impression there'd be multiple dogs there besides us and Chip could get some socialization. It ended up just being me...they're pressuring me into buying an advanced class, but I'm going to take my money somewhere else and get some real, professional training. Our trainer is sweet, but he can't get us any farther than we are. 

I'm glad you got your money back...I haven't been able to do that with either place


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## SerenityFL

Yah, as soon as she started teaching the dogs to JUMP UP to get a treat I would have said, "Ok, wait, hold the phone. Let's just stop right here. I would like my money back and I'm outta here." 

I was going to tell you how to teach down without sit but the way Natalie said to do it is almost identical. I have a trainer coming to my house right now because the boy is a bit on the dog aggressive side and we need to nip that in the bud right now. Of course the hoodlums already knew sit, down, heel, get up, (that's for when the boy is lying down and I want him to stand up in to a sit position), and other various tricks...which, surprisingly to everyone, most especially me, I taught on my own, no trainer...but the trainer wanted to know if the hoodlums could go in to a "down" without going to a "sit" first.

And ya know what? They do. In fact, NOW it's almost hard to get them to sit. LOL! 

We don't use a clicker nor do we use treats. What we use is praise and he's teaching me a few things behavior wise that lo and behold, those darn hoodlums are actually respecting me. The girl, TOTALLY. The boy...well, he didn't altogether respect me before but he's getting there. We have some work left to do but we are getting there...he's gettin' the picture, he is not in charge around here.

I know almost everyone here insists on clicker training and treats but don't misunderstand it to mean that the training we are going through is negative. It's not. We just don't use a clicker and treats. We are doing it from a behavior/respect standpoint and it. is. working. 

In fact, the first day, he had my boy in a down for an hour. I almost fell over in disbelief. We still have a ways to go about the dog aggression but it's only been two times and we just got started. Thus far, it is WELL worth the high price of this training because I am seeing incredible results.

Anyway, I went off in my own little world there...what I was going to say is, I believe this trainer is not very knowledgeable if she can't figure out how to teach a dog to "down" without a sit and teaches people to have their dogs jump up for food. I'm sorry, that's just ridiculous.

Best of luck with the new class.


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## committed2excellence

Mokapi said:


> Sorry to hijack the thread for a moment, but I have a question on that...it's something I'd like to train Chip to do. I watched a video where the trainer said to not do any clicking (we use "yes" instead of a clicker), and to only treat when the dog isn't looking at you so it seems like treats are "falling from the sky". That's all well and good, and the minute Chip looks away after he lays down, I treat him. Problem is, he knows exactly where that treat came from, and after the first treat, he won't stop looking at me except to look at his paws for more treats. After that first one, he also won't stay laying down for longer than about 10 seconds before hopping up. Any ideas how I can correct that? I want him to lay down whenever I stop moving for a decent period of time- we have trouble with him sitting after I stop while heeling.
> (


Most dogs have enough of a grasp of the obvious to realize that God doesn't make it rain doggy treats down from the sky. They know that they come from you. Whether you use a word or a click, make sure that you mark the behavior. I think a lof of folks are finally getting on the Ellis and Balbanov videos. I've seen both work and or train in perosn. Just remember, you don't get to see everything that goes into training the dog on the DVD. Judging from your comments below, if you did you probably wouldn't watch it. That being said, use what works best for you. Pet obedience and working dog or sport obedience has to be trained differently with one basic tenant in mind. As a pet owner, you are Alpha and what you say goes and you can dominate, Casear Milan, blah, blah, blah. However, if you compete in a sport AS A TEAM, you must think a little differently. The best scores and results usually come from those who train as partners, as teammates. You can force and compel all you want and even play little tricks on the dog. This often comes back to haunt you. Think teamwork and compromise. On to your question. Seems like your dog needs to learn what DOWN means. Just because you are doing reps doesn't mean that he KNOWS what the command means. Mark the behavior and treat. Before you can give him 10 seconds you have to give him 1 or 2 SOLID seconds of doing the command. When he has that behavior down solid, you add time. You tell him down and when he goes you wait a few more seconds and then you click and treat. Follow this order and you are doing basic proofing as you go along. As far as the automatic sit, the issue is the same. Shape the behavior first on a training table or something of the like and then advance. Don't try to get an automatic sit before the dog understands sit. I read your last paragraph and I caution you about "real, professional training". You may get exactly what you had before. There are 1 million "certifications" for trainers that mean nothing. Key to finding a trainer that you can work with is asking questions like do they train for show or pet ob or both, having them demo their own dogs and watching their methods and speaking to people who have worked with them. This should give you a better picture of whether or not it will be a good fit. If you are trying to compete in agility, first thing to look for when you walk into the trainer's office would be a bunch of agility ribbons and titles.


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## monkeys23

Wow glad you got your $$ back. That sounds like it was epically awful.

I use a prong and agree fully. I did not use it to introduce behaviors ever and I don't rely on it either. It's been a very valuble communication tool for us.
Obviously I don't think they are bad in and of themselves, but I really really dislike seeing just about everyone out in public use them incorrectly and as a band-aid rather than the communication and training tool that they SHOULD be. Geeze, if you aren't going to do it right leave it to those who can and find another route that works for you. But don't knock on the people who do use it correctly and successfully either, not referring to anyone in particular... I just think its stupid to denigrate something across the board just because a few misuse it.

I think people very much underestimate the power of positive training and shaping, it can be SO easy to train if you do it right.
A few years ago when my friend adopted her RR puppy I was not really working for a few months and was home to walk and train each of the three dogs in the house individually.... yeah I had that six month old puppy heeling loose leash on his flat collar and already learning sit, down, wait, etc. all with positive praise marking his correct behaviors with some treats. Yeah that went down the toilet after the first time his owner walked him herself for the first time. Its astounding to me how badly well intentioned people with zero clue about dog training can screw up an amazing dog. Seriously, it just blows me away. And just yesterday he was being an a-hole for her and I asked him to down and what do I get from his owner? "Oh I didn't know he knew that...." Seriously people?? I gave you frickin' lessons on his commands and junk last year!! Wtf...

THis is the reason I do not want to become a dog trainer for a living. I'm sure I'd do really well at it if I took the time to get certified and junk, but I can't stand seeing people screw over their dogs with laziness and ineptitude. Sorry, for the rant hijack it just bugs the crap out of me that people allow their dogs to be so ill behaved because they are too lazy to positively guide them into being a good canine citizen.


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## BrownieM

committed2excellence said:


> As someone who participates in competitive obedience, sport and conformation I wanted to give you some food for thought. Don't take it as me laying down the law; just my experience over the years. The idea that a conformation dog can't be taught serious obedience and that it will interfere is a myth.


I believe you, and my breeder and handler told me that some people do this. They advised that it will be simpler if I don't teach sit, but that some people do successfully. Here's the thing, I have no desire to do both competitive obedience and conformation. I also have no need for Tiger to sit at this point. It's a pointless command to me because I never need him to sit. I literally cannot think of a specific instance where it is imperative for him to sit, with my lifestyle and my goals. If there was a real need for him to sit, I'd go ahead and teach it now. But all he needs to know at this point is: stand, stay, wait, leave it, down. He already walks on a loose leash. He already stands and looks at me with his full attention. I would like to put a command on this, though. So, basically, why teach sit when I don't need to? If I think of all of the times where I tell Millie to "sit", it would be easily replaced by "stand" with no ill effects. So, Tiger will "stand" in all situations that would traditionally require a sit. He can stand to be petted, stand and look at me to earn his dinner, stand to be brushed OR lay DOWN on the grooming table to be brushed. Everything else we do around here is hiking, walking and playing.

Sit is such an easy thing to teach, it's not like I risk not being able to teach him sit in the future. I am confident that about two treated reps of "sit" with the command attached to it and a cookie, he'd have it down. Poodles are basically human. :wink: It's not going to have any negative consequences if I wait to teach sit for a couple of months. Hell, maybe I'll never teach sit. It's kind of fun that he never sits. I can pretend like I have a dumb dog when house guests come over and tell my dog "sit" "sit" "SIT!!!". Little will they know........he he.




committed2excellence said:


> That being said, prong, flat, electronic, or the one that you used; they are all training tools. Don't sensitize a dog to the tool and you will be fine.. Be fair and be consistent. Do realize that just because you trained one dog with a certain tool doesn't mean that you will be able to train EVERY dog that way. I try to use as much pure positive as I can. However, some dogs can't be trained 100% under that system. Bottom line, I want 100s in Open so if I need to use pressure at the right time I will. Just remember that every dog is different. Hope this helps.


Regarding this, I agree, a prong collar is a training tool, and as I said, I have used them before with Millie and would use them again. However, right now, Tiger's satin neck protector is not even a training tool. I couldn't use a prong on him right now if I wanted to (which I don't, because he doesn't need one to fulfull my current goals for him.) The satin neck protector is just there because the training facility requires a collar. At home, we train without a collar. Honestly, I am only going to training class because I think it is fun to train with other people. I am not taking his obedience training particularly serious at this point. Just exposure and trying to enforce some basic manners. Poodles are damn smart so, really, he'd be fine if I just kept him at home and did little training. He picks up on things without me directly teaching him. The socialization of class is good too. Most importantly, it motivates me to actually train him if I am going to a class.

Finally, my goals are much different than yours. You are competing in obedience. Honestly, I really have no desire to do that at this moment, or even in the near future, so I am taking things quite casually.


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## committed2excellence

Apologies. I misread the original post thinking that you were looking to do basic obedience


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## BrownieM

committed2excellence said:


> Apologies. I misread the original post thinking that you were looking to do basic obedience


?? I do want to teach basic obedience skills. I am not planning on training for novice or anything. Maybe down the road.


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## committed2excellence

Oh ok then. Solid, reliable obedience is solid,reliable obedience. You can use the info and structure it to your particular plan


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## chowder

I'm glad you got out of that class. The worst thing you can do is stick with a bad trainer. Glad you got your money back, too. 

I've had a few bad trainers with my chows. There are some out there who just don't realize that they can't 'manhandle' a chow into doing what they say, especially when they are not the dogs owner. They can't grab them, shove them, jerk them with leashes, or force them to do anything. Not without getting a very resentful dog on their hands. 

I had one (who is an AKC agility judge!!) sneak up behind my boy chow when he wasn't looking and in a sit, and throw her arms around his neck 'to see if he was dominant or not'. Needless to say, the puppy (he was 6 months old) turned around, and growled and snapped at her. She scared him half to death! It was the first time in his life he had ever growled at a person. From that moment on he would not let that trainer near him. Any other trainer could come up and pet him, but not her. She told the whole class to keep their dogs away from me because my dog was 'super dominant' and would get in fights! He had never growled at another dog in his life!! We ended up leaving that class after being set off by ourselves all the time and not being allowed to socialize. 

But.......I took Rocky to Petsmart puppy classes just to get him socializing in busy stores since he was sooo shy. We got a young girl trainer who was great with him. By the last class he was sitting on the floor next to her snuggling her! And he doesn't do that to just anyone! So, surprisingly it was the Petsmart trainer that did the best and the AKC agility judge who sucked with training my dogs couple of dogs.


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## committed2excellence

The same way you would do your due diligence checking out a school for a human child, visiting classes, interviewing teachers, checking past students; you must do this before you settle for help with your four legged kids. They must be a good fit for YOU.


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## BrownieM

committed2excellence said:


> Oh ok then. Solid, reliable obedience is solid,reliable obedience. You can use the info and structure it to your particular plan


Exactly. And the use of a prong collar has never been necessary in ANY standard poodle that I have ever owned for the introduction of the _basic_ skills that I am going to be teaching Tiger in the next 3 - 5 weeks. I can *guarantee* that it will NEVER be necessary for any dog that I own in the future, either. :wink: I simply wouldn't own a dog that cannot be taught to reliably stand, stack, wait, touch, leave it, look at me, loose leash walk or lay down without the use of a prong collar. 

A prong collar has it's time and place, but not for Tiger right now.


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## schtuffy

BrownieM said:


> I told her I thought this was going to be a purely positive class and she said, "well, it's your 85 dollars, you can make it purely positive if you want."
> 
> I got my money back. Yikes.


Eeps...good for you! We took Louis to the basic Petsmart puppy class, but our whole intent was just to socialize him with other dogs and people. He was too smart and already knew everything they taught before we even enrolled. The experience was okay...I don't think we gained much from it, but looking back the guy did a pretty good job and definitely enforced positive training methods. Weird... because he used to be a prison guard :shocked:


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## DaneMama

Luring is effective but it doesn't support or teach your dog how to be a self thinker, figure things out on their own. Luring is just another form of bribery. 

"Follow the cookie until I give it to you!" The dog will eventually learn that once they are in a certain position that you are then giving them the cookie, but it takes a long time and usually the end result is a lot more "sloppy" compared to a dog who learned the same behavior through shaping. 

While shaping will take a lot of time and patience in the beginning, once a dog has learned several cues using this method...future learning happens at a really high rate. Once a dog learns that the "click" marks a particular behavior AND the dog is willing to offer a large variety of behaviors to earn the reward, learning happens almost instantly. 

Here's an example I remember reading somewhere on clicker/shaping training a horse. The horse was clicker trained through shaping for every cue that it knew. A few years after the initial learning phase was over, the faded the clicker and the horse reliably knew many cues from the handler. The horse ended up hurting his foot and it needed to be soaked in a bucket of warm water and medicine. The horse knew the cue of putting his foot in a bucket but didn't realize the handler wanted him to KEEP his foot in there. She saw the break in the language barrier. She ran inside and grabbed her trusty clicker. The horse put his foot in the bucket, went to go take it back out, but she held his foot there and clicked. She only had to click once for the horse to realize that he was supposed to keep his foot in the bucket. That new behavior (holding his foot in the bucket) happened with ONE round because he knew from shaping that the one click meant "this is exactly what I want you to do"


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## committed2excellence

Excellent, excellent, excellent post. Luring is used to show or assist with a behavior and must be taken away soon after so that it doesn't become a crutch. Kudos to you with the clicking/shaping explanations DaneMama. Sounds like we train very similarly.


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## BrownieM

DaneMama said:


> Luring is effective but it doesn't support or teach your dog how to be a self thinker, figure things out on their own. Luring is just another form of bribery.
> 
> "Follow the cookie until I give it to you!" The dog will eventually learn that once they are in a certain position that you are then giving them the cookie, but it takes a long time and usually the end result is a lot more "sloppy" compared to a dog who learned the same behavior through shaping.
> 
> While shaping will take a lot of time and patience in the beginning, once a dog has learned several cues using this method...future learning happens at a really high rate. Once a dog learns that the "click" marks a particular behavior AND the dog is willing to offer a large variety of behaviors to earn the reward, learning happens almost instantly.
> 
> Here's an example I remember reading somewhere on clicker/shaping training a horse. The horse was clicker trained through shaping for every cue that it knew. A few years after the initial learning phase was over, the faded the clicker and the horse reliably knew many cues from the handler. The horse ended up hurting his foot and it needed to be soaked in a bucket of warm water and medicine. The horse knew the cue of putting his foot in a bucket but didn't realize the handler wanted him to KEEP his foot in there. She saw the break in the language barrier. She ran inside and grabbed her trusty clicker. The horse put his foot in the bucket, went to go take it back out, but she held his foot there and clicked. She only had to click once for the horse to realize that he was supposed to keep his foot in the bucket. That new behavior (holding his foot in the bucket) happened with ONE round because he knew from shaping that the one click meant "this is exactly what I want you to do"


I agree! I used shaping with Millie to teach her some fun tricks. It only took a few rewarded reps before she got the idea that *something* SHE was doing was RIGHT! Once that little brain clicked, she started using her mind and throwing different behaviors out there to try and figure out what I was looking for. I agree, shaping is best.


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## Northwoods10

Yikes.

The first trainer I took Nallah to was a nightmare. Nallah *was* dog aggressive when she was younger. I never imagined I'd be able to have 2 other dogs with her around. Never. And this trainer was no help to that situation. Her answer to Nallah's dog aggression was to "stick her in the kennel with her old GSD and see how she came out". Um, no thanks. We packed up and got the HELL out of there. She also mentioned putting a shock collar on her when she got snippy with other dogs in the class. Even *i*, who was merely 20 years old at the time knew better than that. Friggin psycho. 

I know that a down is possible without knowing sit as well. We do not encourage Remi to sit. We encourage him to stand. As standing is what will be most natural to him if he is pointing a bird. We do not want him to sit when he comes upon a bird or is unsure of what he is supposed to do. I notice with the labs, they both sit when they are unsure of what we are asking them. That is their "go to" command. They sit if they are unsure of everything else. Remi stands. That is what he was taught. And he will willingly go into a down from a stand. It can be done. 

Use your knowledge, find a trainer that relates to you and go from there. Without a trainer you agree with, its pretty much pointless. You both have to be on the same level and understanding to get the outcome you are looking for. Best of luck. It took us a few different trials & trainers, but we've found a trainer we'll stick with for life. He's amazing and understands dogs the same way we do.


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## CavePaws

...some trainers are SO useless. I'd love to know what certification this person has as a "professional"


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## BrownieM

Went to the new training class tonight. It's exactly what I need. It is a bit different than your traditional training classes in that the training club has lots of volunteers to help give individualized attention to each student during class. We used lots of shaping tonight. Tiger worked on going onto a mat. We ended on a good note - he was realizing that the mat = good things. :biggrin:

They also worked on sit stays (I did stand instead). I walked with him beside me on the left side, I put my hand out to the side as a target and he stopped. He was immediately clicked and treated. This is how I will be teaching him "stand" because this will be helpful in the ring. Luckily some of the volunteers in the training club that were at class tonight show their dogs so they were able to help me with what I specifically need.

We did targeting too (touch). Tiger already has learned to poke my fist with his nose! I just love that. I know it isn't necessarily the most important of all the things to train our dogs, but something about saying "touch" and having my dog's little cold nose poke my hand just makes me smile. :smile:


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## CorgiPaws

What a terrible experience with that other training class, yikes!
I'm glad you found a class that better suits your needs! And how fun and convenient that there are people with similar interests that can help give pointers to help you out with the necessary things for showing. 
Speaking of showing.... when are you going to indulge us in more photos of that handsome boy of yours?! No fair to keep him to yourself!


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## pandaparade

Don't forget about the word "capturing." Shaping would be splitting up many things and turning it into one whole behavior. Capturing would be when you click and treat for just a sit or a down or something the dog naturally does. You CAN shape a sit/down I am sure, but it would be easier to capture it.


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## Maxy24

Oh, _of course_ you can get a down without a sit. Right now I'm teaching Tucker to bow. A down would be bowing and then dropping his rear end. I do lure though, but it's usually for half of the first session, then a few reps of the next session or two when he forgets what I'm asking him to do. I just have to wait for him to know what I'm going to be clicking for and then I can loose the treat in the hand and just use a hand signal. Then I begin using the verbal before the hand signal.
Just have him stand, stick the treat between his front feet, SLOWLY slide it through his front legs until he bows, then wait for his butt to drop and click/treat.

The fact that the trainer didn't even have the slightest idea of other things you could try to get him into a down without a sit just shows she doesn't have a clue about dogs. She just went through some standard training from the facility and is just doing exactly as she was told.

I find capturing takes a very long time unless your dog is very clicker savvy and intelligent. Tucker wouldn't have a CLUE what I was rewarding him for. We struggle enough when we try to shape lol. Now when I was training my aunt and uncle's Shih-Tzu she was very smart, shaping was super easy and fun and I bet she would have caught onto capturing pretty well.


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## 3Musketeers

Some trainers should not be allowed to "train" dogs, ya know, the kind that scare/traumatize the dog into listening, which only creates more problems.


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## jiml

I'd love to know what certification this person has as a "professional">>>>

I know good trainers w no "certification" and poor trainers with. really the best you can do is observe them.


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## CorgiPaws

jiml said:


> I'd love to know what certification this person has as a "professional">>>>
> 
> I know good trainers w no "certification" and poor trainers with. really the best you can do is observe them.


I can not agree with this enough! My business just hired a new trainer, as our current is moving, and oh my goodness in interviewing, honestly come of the certified ones with the most "credit and merit" were some of the WORST. Part of the interview,we actually pick one of the most unruly in daycare, and ask them how they would take on this dog. Usually it is a jumper. I'm downright shocked at some methods some trainers jump straight to. Shock collar. Alpha Rolling. That would be their FIRST attempt? 
We did end up hiring someone who had professional training, but it vertainly wasn't the paperwork that god him the job!


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