# Loose Teeth and Inflammation on Raw



## happygirlx3 (Feb 22, 2010)

Hey everyone,

My Basenji, Molly, has been on raw for about a year and a half now. She's never needed a dental or had teeth problems until now. I took her to our vet yesterday who knows we feed raw and has no problem with it to get a blood panel and physical exam. During the exam our vet pointed out obvious inflammation on her gums and two very loose teeth. No wonder she's been so grumpy lately! Her teeth were perfectly fine on her last visit. Now she'll definitely need a dental. I'm going to continue feeding raw because I do feel it's the right way to feed my dog, but I am a little confused as to why her teeth would be so bad. I thought raw was supposed to help her teeth, not make them worse! She currently eats chicken wings, turkey necks, pork stew meat, beef heart, chicken gizzards and hearts, lamb liver, lamb meat, pork kidney/liver, and mackerel. 

Any thoughts?


Edited to add: She's 11 years old and weighs about 25lbs.


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## naturalfeddogs (Jan 6, 2011)

Has she had any large knuckle or weight bering type bones to chew on? Is she bad about chewing on rocks? The bones you described would not cause that type of damage. It had to be something really hard, or not food related that she was chewing on.


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## Sprocket (Oct 4, 2011)

She's 11 years old.

Dogs do age no matter what diet they are on.


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

well, i'd probably feed her softer bones and get rid of the turkey necks, as they are denser.

and i'd feed her more complicated chews, like whole lamb or pork necks.....and beef ribs.....she won't be able to eat the bone, but the idea is for her to work the meat out and that's what cleans her teeth.

you can also add in a little acv, coq10 and grape seed extract....just a few drops to a gallon of water and use it as her drinking water. i would use filtered water.


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## happygirlx3 (Feb 22, 2010)

The only bones she gets are those. She's _very_ lazy. Won't chew on anything larger or that takes a long time to chew. She doesn't even chew on toys anymore. Sometimes I can get her to chew on a bully stick or beef hide, but not for very long. Most days she doesn't leave the couch unless we're out walking or at the park. One loose tooth is in the very front.

It's so strange. hwell:


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

in thinking about this, raw is the answer, but not the answer to everything.

humans get gum disease, in spite of taking great care of their teeth. the same holds true with dogs.

some have better teeth than others.....


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## happygirlx3 (Feb 22, 2010)

Sprocket,
Very true! I guess I'm just in denial that she's getting old. :redface:


Magicre,
Thanks for the advice. I'll see if she'll eat pork necks or beef ribs as I can get those easily. I'll also start adding ACV to her water again. 


It probably is just old age. I suppose her first dental at 11 years is pretty good.


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## whiteleo (Sep 7, 2008)

happygirlx3 said:


> The only bones she gets are those. She's _very_ lazy. Won't chew on anything larger or that takes a long time to chew. She doesn't even chew on toys anymore. Sometimes I can get her to chew on a bully stick or beef hide, but not for very long. Most days she doesn't leave the couch unless we're out walking or at the park. One loose tooth is in the very front.
> 
> It's so strange. hwell:


I think the fact that she doesn't use those teeth is the problem...Age is also a factor, I don't think there was anyting that could have been done differently at this point to change what happened.


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

when a dog doesn't tear at meat, the teeth don't clean properly....

it's not so much the edible bone that cleans teeth, it's the act of tearing and using all of the teeth in order to eat.


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## Liz (Sep 27, 2010)

I started my old guy on raw at ten. He lost half of his tiny front teeth chewing meat! So he now has four on the bottom and three on top - just the tiny front teeth. He is a lazy boy and if he doesn't have to chew he won't. I feed strangely shaped bones, ribs, and have fed sheep heads. His teeth are now lovely and his gums are great - it took a while and his gums get inflamed if I am not careful to provide things he has to work to chew. I feel mean sometimes because he will get a boney item when he is super hungry just so I know he will work at getting the meat off - later I give him more meat so he is full but he has to work first! It takes a little more diligence when we have seniors to maintain that dental health. Try some necks, heads, or ribs when your pup is hungry and make him work - then feed him some meat!


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## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

happygirlx3 said:


> The only bones she gets are those. She's _very_ lazy. Won't chew on anything larger or that takes a long time to chew. She doesn't even chew on toys anymore. Sometimes I can get her to chew on a bully stick or beef hide, but not for very long. Most days she doesn't leave the couch unless we're out walking or at the park. One loose tooth is in the very front.
> 
> It's so strange. hwell:


Maybe she's not chewing because her teeth hurt.

Her teeth shouldn't get bad at her age, in my opinion. Dogs much older than her are doing fine with bones.

Could be it's genetic, like Re says. Or there might be something else going on. 

How often do you feed bones? And are the teeth and gums that are the problem in the front of her mouth or the back? Or everywhere?

And, if a place is sore or painful a dog won't use that side and then it gets worse and worse.

I know with my Doberman, I have to give him something reallly big like a hogshead or he refuses to use his front teeth or canines. It's a real challenge for me.


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## creek817 (Feb 18, 2012)

I'm having trouble getting Dobby to use his front teeth on things. at the moment, he really only uses them on horse feet trimmings. He won't hold antthing else with his front feet and pull with his front teeth. I'm working on getting ribs, and hoping that will help.


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## naturalfeddogs (Jan 6, 2011)

Sprocket said:


> She's 11 years old.
> 
> Dogs do age no matter what diet they are on.


I missed the 11 years old part. That may have something to do with it. Duh! LOL!


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## InkedMarie (Sep 9, 2011)

magicre said:


> well, i'd probably feed her softer bones and get rid of the turkey necks, as they are denser.
> 
> and i'd feed her more complicated chews, like whole lamb or pork necks.....and beef ribs.....she won't be able to eat the bone, but the idea is for her to work the meat out and that's what cleans her teeth.
> .


I have a really stupid question here. What do you mean "she won't be able to eat the bone"? Is it because they're too hard? If yes, why are those bones okay but the knuckle/marrow type of bones bad? I'm s-l-o-w-l-y researching, writing stuff down and I've wondered about this. Thanks!


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

InkedMarie said:


> I have a really stupid question here. What do you mean "she won't be able to eat the bone"? Is it because they're too hard? If yes, why are those bones okay but the knuckle/marrow type of bones bad? I'm s-l-o-w-l-y researching, writing stuff down and I've wondered about this. Thanks!


lamb necks are softer and more porous than marrow bones.

bigger dogs can probably gnaw on them and power through lamb and goat....

the density of the bone has much to do with the ability to 'eat' them.

or not break teeth trying to eat them.

sorry. should have made it more clear.

i thought i had read that her dog only weighs about 25 lbs....i'll re check that.

a mastiff would be able to power through a whole necks.


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## Sprocket (Oct 4, 2011)

magicre said:


> lamb necks are softer and more porous than marrow bones.
> 
> bigger dogs can probably gnaw on them and power through lamb and goat....
> 
> ...


All my dogs can eat pork necks (whole ones, not the ones from the store)

Even Spocket can get through. He doesn't get them often. Mostly I let him pick the meat off and then hand it over to Gunner.


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## InkedMarie (Sep 9, 2011)

magicre said:


> lamb necks are softer and more porous than marrow bones.
> 
> bigger dogs can probably gnaw on them and power through lamb and goat....
> 
> ...


thanks for responding! Not sure if it was this board or another but someone told me not to feed the marrow type of bones as they can break the teeth. I don't need that. I've posted about my fear of raw, maybe if I start with some beef ribs that they won't eat it will help ease that fear. Feeding bones marked "dog bones" at the grocery store just doesn't seem the same as beef ribs. 
While I'm thinking about it, I have a dog who I think can't eat chicken (as far as kibble goes). I've never had him allergy tested and I don't plan to but am I correct that if I ever do decide to try raw, should I steer clear of chicken?


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

InkedMarie said:


> thanks for responding! Not sure if it was this board or another but someone told me not to feed the marrow type of bones as they can break the teeth. I don't need that. I've posted about my fear of raw, maybe if I start with some beef ribs that they won't eat it will help ease that fear. Feeding bones marked "dog bones" at the grocery store just doesn't seem the same as beef ribs.
> While I'm thinking about it, I have a dog who I think can't eat chicken (as far as kibble goes). I've never had him allergy tested and I don't plan to but am I correct that if I ever do decide to try raw, should I steer clear of chicken?


it could be most any boards......i think i can speak for many when i say that we call them 'wreck reational ' bones.....because the animal walking on those legs can weigh upwards of 1000 pounds. that is one dense bone.

now, beef rib bones....they are a bit different. if you feed a rack of them to a larger dog....some dogs can eat them, but rib bones are not as dense as leg bones......weight bones....if that makes sense.

if you were to ever start raw and i get the fear, believe me...i would not ever recommend starting with beef. it's a sure way to give your dog diarrhea.

there is a reason we start with edible bone......and, whilst that might be what scares you and all of us in the beginning, it's the safest and most easily digested....

with a beef rib, the dog will eat the beef, and get the runs. beef is rich and therefore, is not usually intro'd first. usually, beef is last right before organs.


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## InkedMarie (Sep 9, 2011)

magicre said:


> it could be most any boards......i think i can speak for many when i say that we call them 'wreck reational ' bones.....because the animal walking on those legs can weigh upwards of 1000 pounds. that is one dense bone.
> 
> now, beef rib bones....they are a bit different. if you feed a rack of them to a larger dog....some dogs can eat them, but rib bones are not as dense as leg bones......weight bones....if that makes sense.
> 
> ...



ok, so if I want to give my dogs recreational bones, to gnaw on, for their teeth, what should I give, since beef ribs aren't the best? Mine love bones. I either buy them at the grocery store or sometimes get Primal bones from a pet store.
Can you also please read the last sentence of my last post and possibly answer? Thanks!


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## Liz (Sep 27, 2010)

I would still start with chicken as most dogs allergic to kibble with chicken or cooked chicken do great with raw chicken. Cooking changes some of the properties.


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## InkedMarie (Sep 9, 2011)

Liz said:


> I would still start with chicken as most dogs allergic to kibble with chicken or cooked chicken do great with raw chicken. Cooking changes some of the properties.


thanks Liz. That's what I wondered about.


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

liz is my good twin.


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

this is what i've learned....when testing for allergens, the test is based on a cooked protein....

so dogs who are unable to eat chicken kibble may not be able to eat cooked chicken, although i would still try it unless the dog goes into anaphylactic shock when given chicken...most of the time allergies present themselves in lesser symptoms..

raw is entirely different...so if a dog is allergic to cooked proteins as with kibble, it is not carved in stone that the dog will be allergic to raw chicken, as we found out.

malia did not tolerate chicken well at all when we were feeding a chicken based kibble. actually none of my dogs did which is why we switched to a lamb and rice formula and they did much better.....

but with raw chicken, she is just fine.

and she was fine with cooked chicken too when we were home cooking before switching to raw.


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## InkedMarie (Sep 9, 2011)

thanks, Magicre.


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## Malika04 (May 14, 2012)

I was also concerned with Malika's allergies. Thanks.


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## Kwpgrooming (May 20, 2012)

Your dog may not be allergic to the chicken in the chicken kibble. What other kinds of ingredients are in it?


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## happygirlx3 (Feb 22, 2010)

Update!

Molly had her dental today and extracted two teeth - a molar and an incisor. She had a bit of chicken and scrambled eggs for supper. We'll be feeding ground this week probably until her mouth feels better. The vet sent her home with Amoxicillin to prevent infection and she also had a trace of blood in her urine. I'll scan and post the bloodwork results tomorrow. 

I did buy some beef ribs and pork necks for when she's feeling better. I'll try to keep an eye out for interestingly shaped pieces of meat for her teeth. Hopefully this will be her last dental. Thanks again everyone for the great advice! :smile:


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## meggels (May 30, 2010)

InkedMarie said:


> thanks Liz. That's what I wondered about.



I've told you this :tongue:


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## DaneMama (Jun 27, 2008)

Loose incisors are normal for older dogs. Some bone loss in the jaw bones is normal (not ideal) but will cause loose teeth. It may have absolutely nothing to do with diet, just the individual dental hygiene of each dog (just like with people- some have naturally "healthy" mouths and vice versa). 

What other tooth is loose?


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