# Educating With Kindness



## MNBark (Jan 23, 2013)

Tossed a coin over whether or not to post this here or on the Raw Board. 

Most of the people feeding their pets trash don't know it. And when they are told it, it's such a new concept that it reads as exaggeration. They're often pet people who were born to pet people who were born to pet people who fed a brand. When you live in a world where poor nutrition is the norm you don't know what a healthy dog looks like. It's the saying about how in the Kingdom of The Blind, the one-eyed man is king. There are people who have not seen what good nutrition can do, other than perhaps watching Westminster. 

And a good portion of the people feeding their dogs trash love their dogs with a passion. Santa pictures, presents under the tree, memories of their children and pets playing and cuddling. They believe they are good pet owners, and for the most part, they are!

So, added to the concept of the tenets of canine nutrition being new, the wrong approach is hurtful, because it accuses them of harming every (much-loved) pet they've ever had. They might have had to mourn the loss of animals that died way too young, and to have it implied that this was their fault...

Any education must be done with kindness and understanding, and from the standpoint of giving this person the respect of not attacking them. It must be done in the belief that if they knew better and could afford better, that they would do better. It must be done while never forgetting that we -- pet people -- have more in common than we have differences. And it must be done with the willingness to be happy at improvement, even if the person doesn't adopt your preferred diet. 

Too often, I see an approach that has the subtext of, "you are an idiot, and a bad pet owner." And I see the people close down. Admittedly, I see on the other side people making out people who buy better brands (or do raw, of course) to be fanatics who are unaware that dogs and people are different. They mistake and interest in "human grade food" with people thinking their dogs are human, not understanding that it's about the reassurances that comes with the label, and that the people with a real interest in the topic thing have no interest in feeding dogs as if they were humans. 

But I believe the best thing that can be done is to treat others with respect, and to calmly educate. Anyone who cannot do that might be doing wonderful things for their own pets, but they aren't using their knowledge in a way that will help others. 

(Topic is inspired by a discussion I recently saw on an entertainment blog in which there were few meetings of the mind -- it was The Pet Food Purists vs. The People Sure They Were Going Overboard.)


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## woganvonderweidenstrasse (Nov 22, 2012)

MNBark said:


> Tossed a coin over whether or not to post this here or on the Raw Board.
> 
> Most of the people feeding their pets trash don't know it. And when they are told it, it's such a new concept that it reads as exaggeration. They're often pet people who were born to pet people who were born to pet people who fed a brand. When you live in a world where poor nutrition is the norm you don't know what a healthy dog looks like. It's the saying about how in the Kingdom of The Blind, the one-eyed man is king. There are people who have not seen what good nutrition can do, other than perhaps watching Westminster.
> 
> ...


I agree...but it is difficult sometimes, knowing what you know, when you see people do stupid things or feed junk you can't help thinking "OMG, what an idiot!"


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## rannmiller (Jun 27, 2008)

Yes it can be hard not to just blurt out "Oh you know that food is garbage and you're slowly poisoning your dog, right?!" like I'm sure we'd all like to. Although I have that same problem with people eating garbage too. I just have to remember (as I sit on the couch, late at night, indulging in some heart-shaped York peppermint patties), that not _everything_ I eat is completely healthy either and yet I still consider myself to be a pretty healthy person. Also, I used to feed my dog Purina Dog Chow growing up before I knew any better so I know what it's like to be manipulated by cheap prices and clever advertising. When my friend first tried to talk to me about feeding a better food, I didn't know anything about nutrition and was only 14 so of course I knew everything so I refused to listen to her. Especially since every bag of food in Walmart *gag* had a very similar ingredient panel, I couldn't understand why I should need to spend more money on the same product. When I finally got educated even a little bit about dog food a few years later, I got angry at the dog food companies for their deceit and at myself for not listening to my friend earlier and doing the research sooner. I've been hooked on nutrition ever since. But it took a kind employee and a well-written article in a holistic pet food store I randomly wandered into one day to point me in the right direction. 

Long story short, kindness with education is the best way to reach people when it comes to most things, but especially their pets.


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## MNBark (Jan 23, 2013)

woganvonderweidenstrasse said:


> I agree...but it is difficult sometimes, knowing what you know, when you see people do stupid things or feed junk you can't help thinking "OMG, what an idiot!"


I know, but once the person thinks you're calling them an idiot, the conversation is pretty much over. Doesn't help the dog, doesn't help the person. I think more people are ignorant/uneducated than are genuine idiots. 

The degenerative stuff that comes with poor nutrition looks like unavoidable aging if it's all you've ever witnessed, and for most dogs it is a slow process for it to catch up with them, and so it really can look like what is supposed to happen. Some dogs, as we all know, never exhibit symptoms. Who hasn't seen dogs with cruddy diets and glowing coats? 

I have a philosophy that in order to persuade someone, I have to first put forward my best foot. I have to do my best to be kind, and to present my case well by showing it first and foremost, and being able to listen. "Poseidon is so cute! I can tell you love him a lot! I've heard some bad things about Beneful, and read the label, and I must say that there are some problematic ingredients. I wouldn't feel comfortable feeding it, based on what I know about dog nutrition" yields better results than, "You feel THAT garbage? You might as well feed toenail clippings." Because that person probably really DOES love their dog a lot. Probably doesn't know he is a tubby little thing, because most dogs are tubby little things. They are probably flummoxed over the itching, and since they're sure -- based on expensive campaigns, or a vet recommendation -- that the food is solid, they attribute it to grass, or just one of those things. 

So, you talk to them like one loving pet owner to another.


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## MNBark (Jan 23, 2013)

rannmiller said:


> Yes it can be hard not to just blurt out "Oh you know that food is garbage and you're slowly poisoning your dog, right?!" like I'm sure we'd all like to. Although I have that same problem with people eating garbage too. I just have to remember (as I sit on the couch, late at night, indulging in some heart-shaped York peppermint patties), that not _everything_ I eat is completely healthy either and yet I still consider myself to be a pretty healthy person. Also, I used to feed my dog Purina Dog Chow growing up before I knew any better so I know what it's like to be manipulated by cheap prices and clever advertising. When my friend first tried to talk to me about feeding a better food, I didn't know anything about nutrition and was only 14 so of course I knew everything so I refused to listen to her. Especially since every bag of food in Walmart *gag* had a very similar ingredient panel, I couldn't understand why I should need to spend more money on the same product. When I finally got educated even a little bit about dog food a few years later, I got angry at the dog food companies for their deceit and at myself for not listening to my friend earlier and doing the research sooner. I've been hooked on nutrition ever since. But it took a kind employee and a well-written article in a holistic pet food store I randomly wandered into one day to point me in the right direction.
> 
> Long story short, kindness with education is the best way to reach people when it comes to most things, but especially their pets.


For the life of me, I can't remember what we fed our dogs when I was growing up, other than grocery store bought. We fed our cats this 9-Lives moist in a canister. It wasn't until I was an adult getting my first dog that I researched brands. The internet was young, but it was there when I was forming my opinions, which means that someone only a few years older than me didn't have the same experience, and probably continued with the brands they knew growing up. 

As you indicate, most people were swindled by big ad budgets, prime placement in stores, and familiarity. I know better, and even I see some of those commercials and find myself charmed. These companies manipulate pet people by speaking their language, and by claiming specifically that they're using advanced nutrition. "You love your dog, and we love dogs, too. See this healthy and athletic dog? If you want this for your dog, who you love, than feed our food!" And they don't think that the company with the recognizable name, and the commercial voiced by someone who sounds kind and like he "gets" the bond, is leading them to harm their pets. They cannot fathom that a food that has been made since their grandmother or great grandmother was in diapers could possibly be that bad -- because wouldn't they have heard before that it was bad? Wouldn't "someone" have stopped that company from making it?

When they're told it is poor quality, they are apt to think people are exaggerating. They think there are probably slightly better brands, and they can look into them, but the budget is tight, the pets seem okay, and there is no way that a new food would make a big difference. To them, its not the difference between trash and nutrition -- more like the difference between good food and (expensive) great. In human terms, the difference between buying produce at the grocery store vs. organic at Whole Foods. 

So, when people flip on them they simply seem like fanatics making a big deal out of nothing.


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## ibelongtoJake (Jan 19, 2013)

Lets not forget about the Medical Pet Professionals that we all want to look up to as well. I know all too well from most recent experience how one can be treated with their choice of a feeding regime. Knowing that I have done my research and I see the difference in my beloved pet over the difference of prior beloved pets of mine just in the knowledge of what a carnivore requires as a daily diet, I was treated most horribly and actually kicked out of the clinic "for my attitude". I was being persuaded to feed the particular line of food that the Vet sold and was well "versed" on by the company that makes this pet food. I too must admit, back in the day I was on that band wagon of feeding this particular line of food. I thought i had to of had the most healthiest of carnivores in the world by feeding what my Pets Doctor praised so well. I mean the name alone is "Scientific", am I right? 

So, let us not forget the ones who look after the welfare of our beloved pets. They are the ones who really should be extremely well educated in the first place. Well, I am sorry, they really are. They are educated on the brand that pads their pocket books in my opinion. But I only know that now from the extreme work I have put into researching and actually watching my pets grow into healthy beautiful THRIVING, not just living animals. 

I understand kindness can get you understood better to the ones who want to really learn and listen, but then there are those that firmly believe what they are doing is the way to go. I do applaud them, they actually believe they are doing their very best because their are way way too many that could really care less what their animal eats. And that is from recent experience as well. 

Great Post MNBark!


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## monster'sdad (Jul 29, 2012)

I agree with all this, but how do you explain to the average person, say a stubborn 25 year old pet owner, that a person with a Phd in science and nutrition, animal husbandry, genetics or some other directly related field, knows a lot more than someone that just reads other websites and walks around petshops and dog parks telling people what to do?

It can be frustrating when people make false statements even when challenged with proof.

What is the best way to educate someone when scientific proof is either not read or even respected?

The arrogance of this thread is simply unbelievable.


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## Kassandra (Jun 6, 2012)

I agree, this is a great post! I can't help but think that my thread started it though lol I am one of those people that get so fed up when people don't listen that I want to just call them an idiot for not doing a little research before they pick a dog food. I don't, because I know that will never get me anywhere but it is still what I want to do! 

I never really diss a dog food to a person feeding it. I try to tell them that it isn't a high-quality food and that today there are so many better, healthier options out there today with all the advances in pet nutrition. But then I will come on here, where everyone knows that it is such a crappy food and rant about it just to make myself feel better because the BF really doesn't give a poop, I feed the dogs.

Even on a budget, I think that there are better foods that people can buy. For example, I know budget pet owners who were feeding their dogs x brand of food and their dogs needed 5 cups (!!!) a day to maintain their weight. When switched to y brand, they only needed 2.5 cups. (This is true and this was a 50 lb dog so 5 cups was a little crazy! I think x brand was dog chow and y brand was kirkland or whatever you buy at costco) So yes, the food is more expensive, but you are feeding less of it. I think that a lot of people don't know that with a healthier food, chances are you aren't going to need to feed as much and therefore it isn't really that much more expensive, if more expensive at all. 

I think most of us were people who at some point fed dog chow or pedigree or whatever. When we were growing up it was what our parents chose to feed our pets. As a kid, you don't know any better and even if you did, you aren't the one buying the food.When you grow up with a food doing what seems like so well for your dog, why switch? Why research any other brands even? It is because why would you switch something that is working? Many of these owners don't know what their healthy looking dogs would look like on a healthier brand. I know dogs that honestly, look amazing being fed kibbles n bits. The fact is, they could still look that much better being fed something a little higher quality. And they would probably shed a lot less.

So if your dogs look healthy, and act healthy, why change something that seems to be working? These pet owners don't know any different, and can even think that you are crazy for telling them that they feed a crappy food since their dogs look so great. Of course you have to come at it from a different angle, and be nice about it.

Again, super great thread! I definitely agree with the not calling a person an idiot part :wink:

EDIT: Monster's Dad, why do you have to be a jerk all the time!! If you don't like something just stay out of it for pete's sake.


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## woganvonderweidenstrasse (Nov 22, 2012)

When I was young we fed our dogs a kibble brand from the vet...can't remember what it was. My first dog died at the age of 2 of cancer...not for one second did it cross my mind that it could be the diet. I mean, back then when someones says dog food, you think of kibble.....
Just before I got Logan I started doing research on different dog foods and what I was gonna feed my new pup. I remember hearing an add on the radio one day by a DJ I really liked and thinking afterwards; ooo! I'm gonna feed my dog Purina!...thank god I did some more research and later decided; oh no! Royal Canin is the best, that's what I'm gonna feed! And then one day stumbled on a breeder's website; on his diet page he was saying to potential buyers to make sure they have fresh chicken wings in their fridge when the pup comes home...and then went on to explain why. It was like a light bulb went on in my head! I thought...of course! This is what a dog should eat...and I never looked back since then.

In the vets' defense; most of them really don't know much more about nutrition than the average dog owner out there. They don't learn much about it at university and the bit of education they do get is from a pet food representative. The vets who do know about raw feeding are to hesitant to recommend it cause there are just too many people that will get it completely wrong...dog gets sick and vet gets blamed. It's just easier for them to recommend a kibble...that way they don't have to take responsibility for anything.


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## Kassandra (Jun 6, 2012)

woganvonderweidenstrasse said:


> In the vets' defense; most of them really don't know much more about nutrition than the average dog owner out there. They don't learn much about it at university and the bit of education they do get is from a pet food representative. The vets who do know about raw feeding are to hesitant to recommend it cause there are just too many people that will get it completely wrong...dog gets sick and vet gets blamed. It's just easier for them to recommend a kibble...that way they don't have to take responsibility for anything.


Actually, most vet schools aren't hounded by kibble companies like many people think. They do host luncheons etc but they are optional and most of the time students aren't even encouraged to go to them. (I am currently in pre-vet school and have spoken to many a vet about this!) That being said, they are only required a couple nutrition courses and with a million other courses that are extremely tough, who is going to not only take on another few courses, but dish out the money for them! I am not defending them either, I think that vets should know about nutrition as that is what health stems from. They should be required more nutrition courses IMO. You are right about the raw, however this is the kibble section so I'll keep my mouth shut  

Sorry this post was so off topic to the thread.


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## MNBark (Jan 23, 2013)

ibelongtoJake said:


> Lets not forget about the Medical Pet Professionals that we all want to look up to as well. I know all too well from most recent experience how one can be treated with their choice of a feeding regime. Knowing that I have done my research and I see the difference in my beloved pet over the difference of prior beloved pets of mine just in the knowledge of what a carnivore requires as a daily diet, I was treated most horribly and actually kicked out of the clinic "for my attitude". I was being persuaded to feed the particular line of food that the Vet sold and was well "versed" on by the company that makes this pet food. I too must admit, back in the day I was on that band wagon of feeding this particular line of food. I thought i had to of had the most healthiest of carnivores in the world by feeding what my Pets Doctor praised so well. I mean the name alone is "Scientific", am I right?
> 
> So, let us not forget the ones who look after the welfare of our beloved pets. They are the ones who really should be extremely well educated in the first place. Well, I am sorry, they really are. They are educated on the brand that pads their pocket books in my opinion. But I only know that now from the extreme work I have put into researching and actually watching my pets grow into healthy beautiful THRIVING, not just living animals.
> 
> ...


I'm sickened over how you were treated by the vet -- read about it in your thread. 

I think some vets do it for profit, and I think others believe what they're saying. The company in question literally wrote the textbook on canine nutrition. (Is it still the one being used?) I also think that, no matter their misgivings, the Prescription line is a quick fix for a lot of issues. Easier to give someone a can than to educate, and a lot of pet owners will take comfort in the idiot proof nature of canned and prepackaged. 




monster'sdad said:


> I agree with all this, but how do you explain to the average person, say a stubborn 25 year old pet owner, that a person with a Phd in science and nutrition, animal husbandry, genetics or some other directly related field, knows a lot more than someone that just reads other websites and walks around petshops and dog parks telling people what to do?
> 
> It can be frustrating when people make false statements even when challenged with proof.
> 
> ...


You agree with me, but my thread saying we should be nice to people is arrogant? Confused, but perhaps you think that's my natural state.


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## kathylcsw (Jul 31, 2011)

monster'sdad said:


> I agree with all this, but how do you explain to the average person, say a stubborn 25 year old pet owner, that a person with a Phd in science and nutrition, animal husbandry, genetics or some other directly related field, knows a lot more than someone that just reads other websites and walks around petshops and dog parks telling people what to do?
> 
> It can be frustrating when people make false statements even when challenged with proof.
> 
> ...


Clearly you missed the entire point of the thread. We all get that you are against raw. You have arrogantly made that point over and over and then get mad if we all don't stop raw and start feeding Momentum or Red Paw. Why don't you try feeding your dogs what you think is best and understand that we are all doing the same. Are you nicer in person than you come across here?


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## MNBark (Jan 23, 2013)

woganvonderweidenstrasse said:


> When I was young we fed our dogs a kibble brand from the vet...can't remember what it was. My first dog died at the age of 2 of cancer...not for one second did it cross my mind that it could be the diet. I mean, back then when someones says dog food, you think of kibble.....
> Just before I got Logan I started doing research on different dog foods and what I was gonna feed my new pup. I remember hearing an add on the radio one day by a DJ I really liked and thinking afterwards; ooo! I'm gonna feed my dog Purina!...thank god I did some more research and later decided; oh no! Royal Canin is the best, that's what I'm gonna feed! And then one day stumbled on a breeder's website; on his diet page he was saying to potential buyers to make sure they have fresh chicken wings in their fridge when the pup comes home...and then went on to explain why. It was like a light bulb went on in my head! I thought...of course! This is what a dog should eat...and I never looked back since then.
> 
> In the vets' defense; most of them really don't know much more about nutrition than the average dog owner out there. They don't learn much about it at university and the bit of education they do get is from a pet food representative. The vets who do know about raw feeding are to hesitant to recommend it cause there are just too many people that will get it completely wrong...dog gets sick and vet gets blamed. It's just easier for them to recommend a kibble...that way they don't have to take responsibility for anything.


I mentioned in another thread that I had a minor breakdown when I found out that my first puppy as an adult was being fed Puppy Chow by the breeder. That makes me laugh now. As much as I agree with my twenty-something self, my panic over a couple weeks of Purina seems distant and silly. There are no guarantees, no matter what you feed. That dog lived to "only" 14, even though he was fed a great diet for most of his life. Dogs that I rescued when they were older, who had been fed poor diets, lived longer. 

@Kassandra,

I promise my inspiration was a blog post on another site, a non-dog site, mocking people for feeding human-grade food. The thread became popular, and I thought people on both sides were rude on the topic. I wondered what was being accomplished, and found myself feeling empathy for people who were feeding foods I never would, because people were treating them like puppy slayers. When you love your dog, it's hurtful for you to be accused of being abusive when you think you were doing your best, or really did not understand the issue.



kathylcsw said:


> Clearly you missed the entire point of the thread. We all get that you are against raw. You have arrogantly made that point over and over and then get mad if we all don't stop raw and start feeding Momentum or Red Paw. Why don't you try feeding your dogs what you think is best and understand that we are all doing the same. Are you nicer in person than you come across here?


Ah. I'm still learning the people. It sounds like another thread, or several threads, are being brought here. 

There is an irony here, considering this is not on the raw board, and I wrote in the most general terms.


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## Shamrockmommy (Sep 10, 2009)

More than anything, I wish "the educated and enlightened feeders" would tell people to LISTEN TO and RESPECT what their dog is telling them reguarding diet. I believe the whole set of grocery store foods are terrible. I won't feed them to my pets, nor will I use the meaty-wheaty-chewy treats or rawhides bathed in chemicals. However, there are several brands of kibble, canned, dehydrated, pre-made raw that dogs can and DO thrive on! There are a few raw feeders who are determined to make the entire world feed raw. Well, when I did, I had coat problems, stool problems, broken teeth. YES, I read books upon books, spoke with emailed with called raw feeding 'guru's' who are also well educated on the subject. Truth was my dogs were practically screaming at me that going RMB was not working for them. <shrugs> Nor was it working for me. Look, Americans are busy! Sometimes putting some high quality dry food in a bowl with a splash of water is all I can do. Most days they get cooked toppers of fresh meat and YES, veggies. They love them!

Anyway, I guess I am feeling passionate currently as another dog food board was 'educated' by a PMR feeder who believes his way of feeding is the only way, and gosh, can'tcha just TELL that all dogs need ever is RMBs, organs and fat? Duh!

I have 'converted' many people with dogs on lower quality foods into much better feeders. Sometimes they go full raw (because yes, I do talk about that too!), sometimes a higher quality kibble and the dogs do great. The point is ALWAYS LISTEN TO (AND RESPECT!!) WHAT YOUR DOG IS TELLING YOU about its diet. "Detox" broken teeth, poor coat, stool issues, tummy issues- are not benign. Your dog is telling you something.

JMO


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## Kassandra (Jun 6, 2012)

Either way, I don't care. I think this is a great thread and many people need to remember what you are saying. (cough cough monstersdad cough cough)

I personally don't think that people need to feed human grade food. I don't have a problem with lower quality meats being used in a dog food. Dogs have a short tract digestive system to be able to deal with lower quality meats. HOWEVER, that being said, most (if not all) of the dog foods using a lower quality meat is completely filled with by products and preservatives, which I do not agree with. Low quality meat is one thing, a food filled with GMO corn and rice, preservatives such as Ethoxyquin (also used as a PESTICIDE and hardening agent in rubber), and dyes (for what purpose?????? making the food look pretty????) that is completely different.


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## MNBark (Jan 23, 2013)

Even if you think raw is best, it is a scary (and new) concept to people, and so it is an incredibly hard sell to people who aren't even feeding a good kibble. The ultimate message is "do your research, investigate your current brand." That is what sets people on the path to understanding the raw rationale.


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## woganvonderweidenstrasse (Nov 22, 2012)

Kassandra said:


> Either way, I don't care. I think this is a great thread and many people need to remember what you are saying. (cough cough monstersdad cough cough)
> 
> I personally don't think that people need to feed human grade food. I don't have a problem with lower quality meats being used in a dog food. Dogs have a short tract digestive system to be able to deal with lower quality meats. HOWEVER, that being said, most (if not all) of the dog foods using a lower quality meat is completely filled with by products and preservatives, which I do not agree with. Low quality meat is one thing, a food filled with GMO corn and rice, preservatives such as Ethoxyquin (also used as a PESTICIDE and hardening agent in rubber), and dyes (for what purpose?????? making the food look pretty????) that is completely different.


This is my biggest issue as well...preservatives & chemicals...

I also don't have an issue with good quality kibble; I'll even consider buying a bag when going on holiday when it's difficult to take a bunch of meat with. But I looked at the ingredients list of some of them and I figure it's basically the same as what i'm feeding now...the only difference is it's dried...and more expensive, so why not just feed fresh.


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## kathylcsw (Jul 31, 2011)

When I know that people are feeding lower quailty kibble I do try to offer my opinion in a non threatening, non confrontational manner. If they aren't interested I leave it at that. I have never tried to convert anyone to raw. I tell people I feed a raw diet and if they want to know more then I share it with them. I was initially tured off to a raw diet by some very militant people who actually posted that you couldn't love your dog and feed kibble. I do not believe that. I know that everyone here loves their dog(s) and do what they think is best and that is really all you can ask of most people.

Dogs are like children, everyone does things differently but most do it out of love. I don't judge people based upon what they feed their dogs as long as they take good care of them. I also do not feel it is my mission to go around converting people to a raw diet. I am happy with how I feed my dogs and that is all that matters to me.


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## DaViking (Sep 27, 2011)

Kassandra said:


> I agree, this is a great post!


It's a great post and I agree wholeheartedly with the message. However, the message is somewhat limited, not because it isn't a great way of going about things in general but it should apply when all school of thoughts collide, not just when, say members here, communicate and discuss with random Jane and Joe who think Gravy Train is great.


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## Kassandra (Jun 6, 2012)

DaViking said:


> It's a great post and I agree wholeheartedly with the message. However, the message is somewhat limited, not because it isn't a great way of going about things in general but it should apply when all school of thoughts collide, not just when, say members here, communicate and discuss with random Jane and Joe who think Gravy Train is great.


I am not 100% sure if I understand what you mean. I agree that it should be used at all times if that is what you mean? As in, everyone should be understanding and polite? Such as when people on here get into arguments about what you should feed? I am so confused.


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## DaViking (Sep 27, 2011)

Kassandra said:


> I am not 100% sure if I understand what you mean. I agree that it should be used at all times if that is what you mean? As in, everyone should be understanding and polite? Such as when people on here get into arguments about what you should feed? I am so confused.


Yes, it should be used at all times but when we move into discussions and conversations among members of dog nutrition forums (and other dog forums too) you have to alter and let some things go (not everything though) simply because you have knowledgeable people on all sides that can make a great case for why they feel the way they feel and why they choose to follow a certain feeding regime. This and other places would be a total nightmare if ppl where to, even politely and respectfully, try to constantly educate and guide all they fell is misguided and wrong. I try to contribute and educate as much as I can but if I *sense* the topic is somehow at the core of the other person(s) beliefs I tend to stay away. Hence, why I only post in the raw section once every blue moon even if I fed raw to working dogs for a long time and probably have the odd thing to contribute.


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## Kassandra (Jun 6, 2012)

DaViking said:


> Yes, it should be used at all times but when we move into discussions and conversations among members of dog nutrition forums (and other dog forums too) you have to alter and let some things go (not everything though) simply because you have knowledgeable people on all sides that can make a great case for why they feel the way they feel and why they choose to follow a certain feeding regime. This and other places would be a total nightmare if ppl where to, even politely and respectfully, try to constantly educate and guide all they fell is misguided and wrong. I try to contribute and educate as much as I can but if I *sense* the topic is somehow at the core of the other person(s) beliefs I tend to stay away. Hence, why I only post in the raw section once every blue moon.


Oh of course, I agree with you. I don't think that you should be shoving knowledge down peoples throats every chance you get. BUT if you are on that topic and you find out that you don't agree with what they're doing for a legitimate reason, you might as well tell them why. If they don't want to hear it I definitely do drop it, I don't like getting in fights with random people that I don't know for no good reason. I mean, it is a good reason but honestly what you feed your dog is your choice. If you think you are doing the best for them then go ahead keep doing what you are doing as long as they are healthy. If I see a dog that could definitely look better, I will voice my opinion but other than that, unless someone brings it up then I don't mention anything. And if something gets too heated, I tend to stay away.


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## InkedMarie (Sep 9, 2011)

In real life, the only time I discuss canine nutrition is when someone asks. By the time I get done, some probably wish they hadn't. Online, however, I'm more outspoken. Usually I'm nice but sometimes I get po'd and let loose (if it's a fb forum group without moderation)


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## MNBark (Jan 23, 2013)

Kassandra said:


> Either way, I don't care. I think this is a great thread and many people need to remember what you are saying. (cough cough monstersdad cough cough)
> 
> I personally don't think that people need to feed human grade food. I don't have a problem with lower quality meats being used in a dog food. Dogs have a short tract digestive system to be able to deal with lower quality meats. HOWEVER, that being said, most (if not all) of the dog foods using a lower quality meat is completely filled with by products and preservatives, which I do not agree with. Low quality meat is one thing, a food filled with GMO corn and rice, preservatives such as Ethoxyquin (also used as a PESTICIDE and hardening agent in rubber), and dyes (for what purpose?????? making the food look pretty????) that is completely different.


I don't think dogs need human grade food so much as they benefit from human grade protections, if that makes sense. The laws designed for people, although perhaps over-diligent when applied to animals, are preferable to the laws governing pet food.

The big problem with mentioning human grade, anyhow, is that a lot of pet owners will then inform you that their dogs are content to eat their poop, and lick their nuts. 



kathylcsw said:


> When I know that people are feeding lower quailty kibble I do try to offer my opinion in a non threatening, non confrontational manner. If they aren't interested I leave it at that. I have never tried to convert anyone to raw. I tell people I feed a raw diet and if they want to know more then I share it with them. I was initially tured off to a raw diet by some very militant people who actually posted that you couldn't love your dog and feed kibble. I do not believe that. I know that everyone here loves their dog(s) and do what they think is best and that is really all you can ask of most people.
> 
> Dogs are like children, everyone does things differently but most do it out of love. I don't judge people based upon what they feed their dogs as long as they take good care of them. I also do not feel it is my mission to go around converting people to a raw diet. I am happy with how I feed my dogs and that is all that matters to me.


I think it is easy to look at anyone's life/choices, and think there is some room for tweaks. Pets, children, marriage, money, vacations, education, jobs... But they're looking right back at you. 

An author (fiction) recently said that he realized as a child that every family, ever home, is it's own country and culture. 

I can't tolerate willful neglect, but I can accept other cultures.


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## Kassandra (Jun 6, 2012)

MNBark said:


> I don't think dogs need human grade food so much as they benefit from human grade protections, if that makes sense. The laws designed for people, although perhaps over-diligent when applied to animals, are preferable to the laws governing pet food.


I completely agree with that and know exactly what you mean.

Dogs do that stuff to clean themselves and their territories. It's an instinct they kept from the wolves so predators couldn't track them as easily, if at all. Pups mothers do it to keep the nursing/sleeping/den area clean. I'm pretty sure if this was the wild thousands of years ago we would dispose of it somehow too so predators wouldn't know where we were. They can't exactly pick it up and move it somewhere seeming they don't have thumbs and walk on all fours lol


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## monster'sdad (Jul 29, 2012)

MNBark said:


> Even if you think raw is best, it is a scary (and new) concept to people, and so it is an incredibly hard sell to people who aren't even feeding a good kibble. The ultimate message is "do your research, investigate your current brand." That is what sets people on the path to understanding the raw rationale.


This is how cult leaders talk and rationalize things. Yes it is scary, funny.

How old are you, If I may ask?


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## MNBark (Jan 23, 2013)

monster'sdad said:


> How old are you, If I may ask?


Of course you may ask. You just did. I don't find my age to be relevant.


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## ibelongtoJake (Jan 19, 2013)

monster'sdad said:


> I agree with all this, but how do you explain to the average person, say a stubborn 25 year old pet owner, that a person with a Phd in science and nutrition, animal husbandry, genetics or some other directly related field, knows a lot more than someone that just reads other websites and walks around petshops and dog parks telling people what to do?
> 
> It can be frustrating when people make false statements even when challenged with proof.
> 
> ...


I am a little confused and maybe dismayed at your statement that this is an arrogant thread. Why would there be arrogance here? We are discussing, and I might even mention that we are not even naming particular diets anyone really feeds per say, just diet in general. I guess I am confused as why you would think it arrogant to discuss what is best for our family members health in the way of diet. Overall, this is what they live and hopefully fully thrive on; not just living on. You know there is a difference between just living and actually thriving? What is so arrogant about that? What someone feeds their animal is totally up to them. I particularly appreciate the advice of the veterans on here or wherever I can find consistent feedback. Not to mention I actually see my babies thriving on the choice I have decided to feed. I have not even mentioned, I don't think, what I even feed my crew. Sorry if I have. 

I hope the thread continues. I personally feel it is beneficial, no matter what our particular choices are. We all have options and that we should be grateful for. I do feel strongly, just as MNBark mentioned, that we have become so complacent (not his particular words) with the way we feed our pets over the many years of childhood into our own pets in our adulthood, that we fail to see them THRIVE. We see them alive and living. That is how I am taking this thread in a way. I too am guilty, since I have had dogs my entire life of 40 something years, of feeding what the hype might be at that particular point in time. Yes, my dogs lived, fetched balls etc. However, I remember back now and my most beloved Cocker Spaniel died at the age of 7. Very well taken care of and of course, on the best kibble on the market (so I thought). My Bad, it was not from what I know today but that was 27 years ago. What I feed today to my pets was not mainstream but it was around. I could of fed it then if I was educated or if anyone was educated enough to know when your animal is actually thriving and not just living. So please, explain what is arrogant about wanting the very best for your beloved furry friend. I want mine to be around for a very long time because I love them very much and enjoy their company every day. However, I also now know the difference to say that my babies are thriving and vibrant and healthy! Not just living........Am I arrogant? 

Sorry for the rant. Confused is all as to where the arrogance is coming from. My scientific facts are in the bouncy healthy babies I get the privileged to live with and enjoy every day of their thriving lives. 

Now, I had to flip a coin to see if I should of posted this or not. But I think this thread is great.


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## MNBark (Jan 23, 2013)

Thanks, Elizabeth. 

I think this person has an agenda that has nothing to do with me, and is hijacking this thread in order to push it. I never specified a diet, and the whole of this thread can be summed up as: Let's nice to people, and encourage them to do their own research to discover the diet that will do best for their pets. I have to think that the comment about arrogance, and being a cult leader is meant to be provocative since it makes no sense here. I mean, cult leaders are sorta of known for telling people what to do, as opposed to wanting them to think for themselves. 

In doing this, I'm not thinking so much of friends and family, as people we meet at dog parks, hiking trails, or online. Brief interactions before going on our merry ways, possibly to never see these people again. I'll never know if they feed their dogs better food, or what their version of better will be. I think what we say and do matters.

Anyhow, I figure since my thread has nothing to do with what he is saying, he is pretending the soapbox fits.


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## ibelongtoJake (Jan 19, 2013)

MNBark said:


> Thanks, Elizabeth.
> 
> I think this person has an agenda that has nothing to do with me, and is hijacking this thread in order to push it. I never specified a diet, and the whole of this thread can be summed up as: Let's nice to people, and encourage them to do their own research to discover the diet that will do best for their pets. I have to think that the comment about arrogance, and being a cult leader is meant to be provocative since it makes no sense here. I mean, cult leaders are sorta of known for telling people what to do, as opposed to wanting them to think for themselves.
> 
> ...


I guess. He just sort of threw his comments in there. Out of nowhere. Honestly, I feel he is totally against any other beliefs than his own, which is fine. Just comparing us to cult members is a little drastic. I just want the very best for my dogs, who doesn't? Well, there are a lot of people who DO NOT! I just lost a Great Dane that came from that exact situation. Can I be nice and call them up and explain a better way of treating, feeding or raising their Dane babies? NOPE. Otherwise my Jake would still be alive and thriving. This guy that is throwing things into this discussion is only confusing me. I have my reasons as most of us do for feeding the way we have chosen. Mine personally is through experience and educating myself almost daily on what may be the best for my beloved animals. Even against medical professionals who ARE arrogant in the way they treat their clients and the very animal that needs their attention. I know from experience. 

I think your post and this thread is to assist anyone who is interested in the conversation to discuss all means of diet and hoping to improve others knowledge in the very choices we do have, no matter what the choice is they have decided upon ultimately. Let us all discuss what is best for our loved dogs and cats or ferrets, etc. I see no arrogance in any of that. I see opportunity to meet other people and get in on their particular experiences in the way they have chosen and what has truly worked for their particular situation, every one is individual and different. I like to hear all stances on diet. I like having the options we have afforded to us when it comes to our pets diet. I do not like being treated like crud due to the choices I have made for the very animal I love with all my very heart. However, if you know something that could add a year or two to my babies life, then here I am, all ears open. Plus, I would really like to think I could offer some very important advice one day from my own experiences that may be appreciated by someone else. I am not a cult member and I sure hope I do not come off arrogant. Just interested in others and rather appreciative to be honest in the wisdom I see here from so many others. No matter what they feed. I appreciate everyone's input with the exception of being a cult and being arrogant, no matter who it was aimed towards.

(and I am sorry, the way I feed IS in my signature line) I had said I did not want to push my diet regime I have chosen, and I do not. I however do or would like to assist others in working towards the better health of our furry friends, no matter how we get there if it benefits them.


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## MNBark (Jan 23, 2013)

ibelongtoJake said:


> I guess. He just sort of threw his comments in there. Out of nowhere. Honestly, I feel he is totally against any other beliefs than his own, which is fine. Just comparing us to cult members is a little drastic. I just want the very best for my dogs, who doesn't? Well, there are a lot of people who DO NOT! I just lost a Great Dane that came from that exact situation. Can I be nice and call them up and explain a better way of treating, feeding or raising their Dane babies? NOPE. Otherwise my Jake would still be alive and thriving. This guy that is throwing things into this discussion is only confusing me. I have my reasons as most of us do for feeding the way we have chosen. Mine personally is through experience and educating myself almost daily on what may be the best for my beloved animals. Even against medical professionals who ARE arrogant in the way they treat their clients and the very animal that needs their attention. I know from experience.


I think I read where you said that Jake turned out to have been from a puppy mill. I adopted an 8 year old puppy mill Sheltie a couple weeks ago, and I think of all the wasted years for this cute little guy, who still doesn't even know that people can be a source of good. I'm very glad you were there for Jake. 

The nutrition thing isn't "you must do this, join our canine cult," it's the opposite. It's "there are so many dog food options out there that you will never know about by walking down aisle 6 at the grocery store, and (one of) the right one(s) might make a big difference for your pets.


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## DaViking (Sep 27, 2011)

ibelongtoJake said:


> However, if you know something that could add a year or two to my babies life, then here I am, all ears open.


Join a working, competition or sporting dog board or group and get inspired.


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## ibelongtoJake (Jan 19, 2013)

DaViking said:


> Join a working, competition or sporting dog board or group and get inspired.


I am confused by this comment. :twitch: Why is this thread so difficult to follow? Why this comment? What does it have to do with helping others, including myself, understand wonderful and healthy eating habits? Why would I want to discuss my puppy's diet regime on a competition or sporting dog board? I actually go to those boards for the purpose of learning about competition or sporting. I do not discuss in great detail about the feeding choices I have made on those particular boards I am a member of. I'm sorry Daviking, I don't follow your comment, really. And get inspired? What is that aimed at? I particularly am very inspired. I love my life with my dogs. I feel privileged to be in their company and to care for them daily. I really may be confused at your comment and you may mean nothing mean by it, but I take it as an insult to "get inspired". You know nothing about me and my dogs. You don't know what groups I am a member of. You have no idea what my dogs do in competitions and you have no idea what I do for dogs that inspires me. Goodness, I don't understand the way people treat each other. I thought this board was one of the greatest. Actually, I still do. The majority of the people here are wonderful and caring and have been there for me just recently in my time of major grief. There are the exception, maybe two that are always in every bunch I suppose. Please understand, I do not understand your remark and if I am offended by it and should not be, again I am confused as how it has to do with the discussion in this thread. I am going to disregard it and move forward so not to hijack MNBark's thread any further.

MNBark, yes, I do feel that Jake was from a puppy mill. I am on the board almost daily. Here lately the most since losing Jake to his fight to survive. I actually have his story told under the thread "So hard to say goodbye". It explains in more or less great detail about Jakes horrific life and bittersweet end. I am convinced that Jake turned around towards the end and put on over 40 lbs of weight after starving during his life and only weighing 66 lbs when he came into my family due to the fact I feed my choice of diet. I am completely convinced more than ever through the way Jake rebounded in as little as a few weeks after many years of abuse and malnutrition that the diet helped him feel better and regain some of his energy despite the fact he was dying the entire time I had him. 

How do you know your shelties age for sure? I was told Jake was six months old when I took him in. The necropsy has told a total different story. Total different story. Yes, I am also glad I was there as well as my wonderful children and family and in the end, my absolutely wonderful Vet. However, taking in these puppy mill dogs or any rescue is so very, very hard and I do feel we are all victims in situations such as Jakes and myself. You having a puppy mill dog, my heart goes out to you. I know you try to get through to him and it just doesn't seem to work most times. I can tell you though, do not give up. They come around, just real slow. The world around them is nothing they have ever known. They have to learn everything anew. See, I am inspired just at the fact you have a puppy mill dog and I completely understand the feat you are dealing with. Your a great person for giving your sheltie a second chance or even a first chance to be a dog. And once you have dealt with all the insecurities, make sure you join a board for working dogs or competition dogs. That is what I recently was told to do! Just a little hard for me since my precious rescue died. 

I did not go off unprepared feeding what I feed either. I have had mentors, breeders and the such help me understand proper nutrition. I feel in my heart what I feed is for the very good of my pets health. If they were to compete, they would have all the right nutrition to compete in great health due to that fact. I have been educated by posts such as what started this thread. It is the good and bad of it all that helps us learn what is best or not. There are plenty of people who may get offended if we go beyond the "norm" and actually change it around some. How are we to learn if we do not have each other or the option of these boards that have so much experience reaching out to help others. I am so grateful for that. This board happens to be one of my favorite boards due to the sheer volume of people who feed the way I choose to feed and I particularly have gained a wealth of information here. 

I think it is wonderful you are trying to reach out and help others. If I had known back in the day about the way people actually try to instill knowledge and help others so we can be better pet parents, then I would certainly of fed a lot better diet. I was ignorant and watched commercials and such. Your words of experience are helping more than you know. Do not let others tell you otherwise because that would only hurt the ones who need all sides to learn from, as myself. I sure hope your sheltie settles in soon so you can relax a little and enjoy spending quality time together. We know the diet is great, lucky dog to land in your home. They deserve it, that is for sure. :heh:


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## MNBark (Jan 23, 2013)

I know his age, because the rescue group had his records. I didn't pursue how he came into the group, because there was only so much I wanted to know. He had to have most of his teeth removed, and that's enough for me to know. He was imprisoned, and they didn't care for him. 

He is a sweet thing, but he does not "get" people. Shelties can be a bit shy until the trust is there, and since he has never had someone to trust, he is going to be a challenge, but I'm prepared for it. He pancakes when we pick him up, and since he is both too scared to walk on a leash, and a flight risk...

But he is very interested in food, and shows a lot of sneaky curiosity. Sneaky because he doesn't like to be watched. But we can see the wheels in his head turning. He darts in and out of his crate when he thinks food is in the works, or when he thinks no one is around. I can see so clearly the dog he was meant to be.

And one of our other dogs keeps inviting him to play. It will be nice when he takes her up on it. 

Ideally, I would consider it a triumph to earn his trust, help him overcome his fears, and train him for his CGC.


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## bett (Mar 15, 2012)

monster'sdad said:


> I agree with all this, but how do you explain to the average person, say a stubborn 25 year old pet owner, that a person with a Phd in science and nutrition, animal husbandry, genetics or some other directly related field, knows a lot more than someone that just reads other websites and walks around petshops and dog parks telling people what to do?
> 
> It can be frustrating when people make false statements even when challenged with proof.
> 
> ...


having a phd in science and nutrition (dog science and nutrition?) , dealing with a "stubborn" 25 year pet owner, may know lots more than most pet owners. however, all that being said, calling someone stupid, foolish, or saying they dont know what they are talking about, while it may be frustrating to the one who KNOWS more, (or better) doesnt mean that name calling is the way to go. and there's proof, and then there's proof. hard to argue with someone who has a healthy, shiny , energetic dog, with little health issues, that they are feeding something that you dont feel is good for their dog.
you dont get respect, in mho, by belittling, badgering or just being downright rude. 

i now see that this is an old thread so.....but , i still have the same feelings.
hey, i had an issue with diamond, a big issue, and many folks still love it.
what's to say?


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## woganvonderweidenstrasse (Nov 22, 2012)

MNBark said:


> I know his age, because the rescue group had his records. I didn't pursue how he came into the group, because there was only so much I wanted to know. He had to have most of his teeth removed, and that's enough for me to know. He was imprisoned, and they didn't care for him.
> 
> He is a sweet thing, but he does not "get" people. Shelties can be a bit shy until the trust is there, and since he has never had someone to trust, he is going to be a challenge, but I'm prepared for it. He pancakes when we pick him up, and since he is both too scared to walk on a leash, and a flight risk...
> 
> ...


Ah this is so sad...thank god he ended up with you...I hate puppy mill people! I just hate them!


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## ibelongtoJake (Jan 19, 2013)

MNBark, just give it time, lots of time and patience. I know you know that already. It sure is frustrating seeing that they just don't understand and we have that communication gap. I, like you, will never know the extent or really want to know the extent of Jakes existence. I can tell it was not pretty by the condition he was in and how I thought he was progressing only to die a few weeks later from being neglected and mistreated. That is enough for me to know. I cry at the thought this beautiful animal suffered so badly at the human hand that brought him into this world. Yet, he was the most loving creatures I have ever been around. 

When I first had Jake he would find safety in his kennel. It is doubled door and he would only use one door to come in or out. I would open the other side and he refused to enter or exit that door. Creature of habit. Every time we would be moving around the house, any commotion, Jake would enter his kennel where he felt safe (or it was all he ever knew really). In the end, the kennel was not even on his mind any longer. He loved laying in my bed, sleeping with us or on his bed by my side of my bed. Routine was set in motion, mostly led by Jake. He thrived on routine and that is how we handled things daily. All by schedule and routine, that way he was a little less nervous and began to learn the meals were coming and he would not have a hungry belly anymore. 

I have 4 dogs, that was including Jake. I have a little Chi weenie that has more energy than all of them together...He played and actually antagonized Jake until Jake started to respond to him.They began their tight relationship really quick. Bubba adored Jake and Jake learned how to play. Bubba taught Jake how to play tug a war by holding his toys in front of his face until he caught on. It was rewarding to see Jake walk around with a toy in his mouth. It took him a while, but he learned that it was ok to play with these toys. It was the little things that were triumphant and I was waiting for the bigger things to come along, but they were not to be. Hang in there, your baby is going to show you what you have given him. You are an angel, I believe they know that.


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## DaViking (Sep 27, 2011)

ibelongtoJake said:


> I am confused by this comment. :twitch: Why is this thread so difficult to follow? Why this comment? What does it have to do with helping others, including myself, understand wonderful and healthy eating habits? Why would I want to discuss my puppy's diet regime on a competition or sporting dog board? I actually go to those boards for the purpose of learning about competition or sporting. I do not discuss in great detail about the feeding choices I have made on those particular boards I am a member of. I'm sorry Daviking, I don't follow your comment, really. And get inspired? What is that aimed at? I particularly am very inspired. I love my life with my dogs. I feel privileged to be in their company and to care for them daily. I really may be confused at your comment and you may mean nothing mean by it, but I take it as an insult to "get inspired". You know nothing about me and my dogs. You don't know what groups I am a member of. You have no idea what my dogs do in competitions and you have no idea what I do for dogs that inspires me. Goodness, I don't understand the way people treat each other. I thought this board was one of the greatest. Actually, I still do. The majority of the people here are wonderful and caring and have been there for me just recently in my time of major grief. There are the exception, maybe two that are always in every bunch I suppose. Please understand, I do not understand your remark and if I am offended by it and should not be, again I am confused as how it has to do with the discussion in this thread. I am going to disregard it and move forward so not to hijack MNBark's thread any further.
> 
> MNBark, yes, I do feel that Jake was from a puppy mill. I am on the board almost daily. Here lately the most since losing Jake to his fight to survive. I actually have his story told under the thread "So hard to say goodbye". It explains in more or less great detail about Jakes horrific life and bittersweet end. I am convinced that Jake turned around towards the end and put on over 40 lbs of weight after starving during his life and only weighing 66 lbs when he came into my family due to the fact I feed my choice of diet. I am completely convinced more than ever through the way Jake rebounded in as little as a few weeks after many years of abuse and malnutrition that the diet helped him feel better and regain some of his energy despite the fact he was dying the entire time I had him.
> 
> ...


Sheez. You get insulted because I had the audacity to suggest physical and mental stimulation as a way of adding years to a dogs life, anyones life for that matter. Did I strike a nerve? Simmer down, the world isn't after you, no personal judgment intended.

You actually made multiple case in points pertaining to this thread.


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## monster'sdad (Jul 29, 2012)

*"Most of the people feeding their pets trash don't know it. And when they are told it, it's such a new concept that it reads as exaggeration. They're often pet people who were born to pet people who were born to pet people who fed a brand. When you live in a world where poor nutrition is the norm you don't know what a healthy dog looks like. It's the saying about how in the Kingdom of The Blind, the one-eyed man is king. There are people who have not seen what good nutrition can do, other than perhaps watching Westminster."*

You should have put this thread in the Raw Section. Your words above tell the story about the motivation. If you can't see the immaturity, inexperience, arrogance and inaccuracy of that statment, well, I can't help you.

If you want to proselytise, the raw section is better. Over there, everyone has the same thoughts and operates in a world of belief rather than fact, science and reality.

These are your words:

*"Even if you think raw is best, it is a scary (and new) concept to people, and so it is an incredibly hard sell to people who aren't even feeding a good kibble. The ultimate message is "do your research, investigate your current brand." That is what sets people on the path to understanding the raw rationale."*

I like the flowery prose "on the path to understanding the raw rationale". Your motivation is clear.

I think you would learn a lot about nutrition at an AKC or Navhda trial event. DaViking made a great suggestion.


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## Herzo (Feb 5, 2011)

Know see I disagree, I don't see it that way. To me good nutrition doesn't just mean raw it means a better kibble or home cooked maybe add some canned. I have had people say to me my dog has that old dog hair. Well Maddie had that old dog hair when I got her, she is a dark red and it had that yellow coloring to it.

I have no idea what she was fed but she was at the shelter for at least a month and it never changed while she was there but when I brought her home I put her on what I consider a better kibble, fish oil, and canned or home cooked and her hair got better right away.

I think if you know how someone feeds you just let your mind lock up just like we do with your attitude. I see nothing wrong with this in this section because I do not believe the op is trying to push raw just good nutrition.

Most people I see just use grocery store brands of kibble. Walmart is the go to place for most in my area so I believe this is what the op is getting at.


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## Sheltielover25 (Jan 18, 2011)

Herzo said:


> Know see I disagree, I don't see it that way. To me good nutrition doesn't just mean raw it means a better kibble or home cooked maybe add some canned. I have had people say to me my dog has that old dog hair. Well Maddie had that old dog hair when I got her, she is a dark red and it had that yellow coloring to it.
> 
> I have no idea what she was fed but she was at the shelter for at least a month and it never changed while she was there but when I brought her home I put her on what I consider a better kibble, fish oil, and canned or home cooked and her hair got better right away.
> 
> ...


I agree with this. Good nutrition doesn't mean raw, it can be home cooked as well. I'm leery of going as far as listing kibble/canned because there's plenty of evidence out there to support the theory of eating solely processed foods and their negative reactions. Now feeding a good quality kibble part of the week and supplementing with fresh foods the other days is better. But no, I wouldn't go so far as to say the healthiest of kibbles should be fed day in and day out. Living things need live enzymes, without them they're going to leach from the stock and then suffer greatly down the road. 

I'd also point out raw diets can be just as harmful as kibbles when done incorrectly, same thing with home cooked. 

It's ABSURD to suggest anyone needing a freaking Ph.D to know how to feel their families/pets. It's also even more absurd of a notion because the vets I've chosen, most of the vets that is, to go to have Ph.Ds and encourage feeding a raw diet. So therefor, using a Ph.D as a point of reference isn't very valid as doctors vary greatly on the spectrum of what they agree on/don't. I've been to doctors, both obviously having a Ph.D and gotten vastly different results... theo nly one who can choose which one is right is the ME! Yadda Yadda, if someone has gone through traditional medical school I'm going to listen to them a LOT less than someone who has focused more on health from and overall body perspective. I don't believe everything someone says because they were able to get through eight years of memorizing things that was supplied and funded by a company who has something to gain from sick people. Remember, doctors are the third leading cause of death in the US for a reason.


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## MNBark (Jan 23, 2013)

monster'sdad said:


> *"Most of the people feeding their pets trash don't know it. And when they are told it, it's such a new concept that it reads as exaggeration. They're often pet people who were born to pet people who were born to pet people who fed a brand. When you live in a world where poor nutrition is the norm you don't know what a healthy dog looks like. It's the saying about how in the Kingdom of The Blind, the one-eyed man is king. There are people who have not seen what good nutrition can do, other than perhaps watching Westminster."*
> 
> You should have put this thread in the Raw Section. Your words above tell the story about the motivation. If you can't see the immaturity, inexperience, arrogance and inaccuracy of that statment, well, I can't help you.
> 
> ...



You're seriously out of whack when it comes to interpreting my words. For instance, you are taking respectful comments I've made to people who feed raw, and extrapolating way too much. I can only guess this is because you seem so unable to be polite to people who you don't fully agree with that you can't believe it when you see it in someone else. Then, there is the strange thing where you interpret my saying people should research, and find what works best for their dogs as meaning the opposite -- my crazed plan for all people, everywhere, to think like me. 

I agree that my motivation is clear, because I've stated it, and yet I think you've utterly missed it.

My difficulty in deciding which board to use is a direct result of my hoping that people make a good decision, even if it's not necessarily my decision.


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## MNBark (Jan 23, 2013)

Herzo said:


> I see nothing wrong with this in this section because I do not believe the op is trying to push raw just good nutrition.
> 
> Most people I see just use grocery store brands of kibble. Walmart is the go to place for most in my area so I believe this is what the op is getting at.



Thank you, and yep.


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## Unosmom (May 3, 2009)

Can't recall the last time I consulted a nutritionist to help me formulate my meals and I seem to be doing ok. How is it different for our own pets? I had a cat growing up who ate meat scraps, fresh fish and very rarely commercial food, he would also eat mice on regular basis, lived to be 22. 

Back to the topics, my approach is usually educating people with kindness. I used to pet-sit quite regularly(in my home) which gave me an opportunity to observe the condition of people's animals compared to mine. Some were fine eating pedigree, others not so much. 
One of them was Bella, an obese, arthritic shepherd mix with painful hot spots all over the body. She was 9 years old but probably looked 16. The owners said she required a daily dose of steroids and had to wear e-collar (cone of shame) when I was away to prevent licking them. 
I was no surprised to see that she was on Purina. 

I was watching her for 3 weeks, after few days, I could not in good conscience give her the food she was on. She smelled like a yeast factory, could only take few steps and always wanted to lick her sores. I called up the owners and asked them if I could do a little experiment and transition her over to Taste of the wild fish formula. They had no problem with it as long as she was still on steroids. 

Well guess what? after only 2 days, she stopped licking. After a week, most of her hot spots cleared up. Her red inflamed skin turned back to normal beige color. I also started bathing her in zymox shampoo every 4 days. After the owners came back, they were amazed at the change, she actually ran up to them which they have not seen in few years. I showed them where the sores have healed and all those areas started regrowing hair! They could not believe it. I explained to them that she was most likely allergic to cheap grains in purina, probably didn't help that it was loaded with chemicals and dyes. 
I asked them if they could keep her on this regimen of new diet and shampoo for the next 2 months and report to me on progress. They called me up a month later and said that Bella was doing great. She was no longer taking steroids, regrew all her hair, was able to go on longer walks and even lost some weight. 

There are several more stories of my other clients who had animals with chronic allergies, hot spots, yeast issues that cleared up after switching to better quality food. 
I did not need a "scientific study" to prove that those animals were doing so much better, just a basic diet change. If the evidence supports hypothesis and withstands the test of time, what other proof do you need?

There are raw feeders on here who's had their dogs on this diet for over a decade and their dogs are continuing to thrive. There's a trial and error when it comes to different methods of feeding, just because you disagree with one for whatever biased reason, doesn't make it wrong. 

I also want to point out that I never make suggestions to pet owners that can compromise their animals health. Unless an animal needs to be on some super strict diet like low phosphorus food for kidneys, I don't see anything wrong with suggest a change in diet. Worst case scenario? some digestive issues for a week. Best case? ending their pets misery. 

Another client I recently had was a 12 year old cat with kidney disease. The poor thing was skin and bones, she required daily sub q fluids and was eating dry prescription food. The owners wanted her to eat, but she would hardly eat anything and was wasting away. Based on research and the classes I've taken when I went to vet tech school, I knew that the last thing that cat should have been eating was dry food. I bought couple cans of EVO cat food, printed out a bunch of material in regard to kidney disease and diet change and talked to one of my professors about supplements. 
When the owners came back, I gave them the information and recommended a local holistic vet instead of the one they were going at the time. I told them to take this information and ask whether it was ok to incorporate these changes with their cat. They called me up 3 months later and said that their cat was doing a lot better. She still needed to be on fluids, but only once a week. They transitioned her over to all canned grain free diet and were adding supplements to regulate her kidney function. Best of all, she gained 7 lbs and was doing really well. 

I was never pushy or aggressive in any of these cases. What helped me was the fact that they saw the results first hand and they trusted me since they saw how much I cared about their pets. If someone refuses to listen, I just shrug and move along. Sometimes ignorance is a bliss.


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## monster'sdad (Jul 29, 2012)

MNBark said:


> Thank you, and yep.


Here ya go, a popular feed store brand, SportMix Black Bag, 50lbs around $30.

Sportmix - Energy Plus Adult Mini Chunk

This is probably the most popular brand next to Pro Plan in field events.

So what I am wrestling with is this. Do I take the advice on some people here, I said some, or Brenda Roe, one of the best known German Shorthair breeders and trainers in the country. She uses SportMix.

Or should I take the advice of YP Yousha, who Chairs the Health Committee of the Great Dane Club of America and uses Bil-Jac, or take the advice of some people here.

CHROMADANE

Or should I take the advice of Dr. Tim Hunt, who has been the official race vet for the Iditarod 4 times, and has top kennels from hunting to skijoring to sled racing to agility using his foods, or take the advice of some people on here.

Or should I take the advice of Robert Downey of Annamaet, who basically invented the Performance Food at the University of Pennsylvania, did most of the base research on sled dogs and greyhounds and served in the lab of Kronfeld, or take the advice of some people on here.

I think at some point some laypeople on here should realize they don't have the qualifications to educate anyone, rather they should listen. These people should also refrain from giving medical advice as well. It is ok to have an opinion, but it should be qualified by "see your vet". Hair loss in a dog is potentially serious (see the raw food section) and can be nothing but temporal or something life threatening. Recommending fish oil is reckless.

Most if not all of the basis for the "education" has been disproven recently, so I am also at a loss as to why they continue with their message.

What people on here don't realize is that average pet owners with backyard Labs read all the malarkey about certain products and supplements and believe it.

So, think twice when you think you should educate others.


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## Sheltielover25 (Jan 18, 2011)

monster'sdad said:


> Here ya go, a popular feed store brand, SportMix Black Bag, 50lbs around $30.
> 
> Sportmix - Energy Plus Adult Mini Chunk
> 
> ...


What you don't understand is none of us are speaking from something we've read. We're speaking from what's worked for our canines. I've gotten rid of tapeworms with pumpkin seeds, I've healed lick granulomas on a dog's paw using Manuka honey, I've healed a cat's eye infection with colloidal silver, I had a dog throwing up for two days straight and not get dehydrated due to bone broth/coconut water, I've killed fleas with DE, etc, etc.

What you don't seem to realize unlike you we don't believe in research funded by people who stand to benefit from certain results. We believe in methods we've seen work. Methods we as dog owners, the ones who know our pups better than anyone else, have seen work for them. Will the same method work for every animal? Obviously not. That's why forums exist. To gather experiences from several and apply them and filter though until we find the one our pup needed.

And for the record, I'd take Liz's advice over the majority of vets out there. I've dealt with typical vets and I wasn't impressed. They can't tell you a damn thing about what's wrong but only how to mask the symptoms. People like Liz address with issues going on, and would prefer a slower turnaround if it meant healing the body as whole. I wouldn't go to a traditional vet unless my dog had something stuck in their throat and I just needed immediate care...


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## MNBark (Jan 23, 2013)

monster'sdad said:


> Here ya go, a popular feed store brand, SportMix Black Bag, 50lbs around $30.
> 
> Sportmix - Energy Plus Adult Mini Chunk
> 
> ...


I think you should -- because you were asking me seriously, right? -- do your own research, and make your own decision, perhaps taking in the advice of all of the people you mention. If what they say seems right and plausible. When I say "educating with kindness," the education consists of politely telling people that what they chose to feed is worth at least an afternoon of research, some label reading, some advice from the people they encounter who might have some information -- like the ones you mention. (See above where you ask people to listen?)

In your scenario, the people in question would not have an opportunity to discuss this with any of the people you mention, because research is bad and presumptuous. If they did talk with these people, even if they agreed, they couldn't share the information, unless they also held whatever credentials you feel removes the gag order. Yet your anger at others, your outrage at others, doesn't extend to yourself. You recommend to others, you mention the research that is significant to you, but you are angry at a thread that asks for information, research, and discussion.

What would you have people do who have had success feeding a diet not on your list? Disbelieve their "lying eyes?" Tell no one? Only listen to the small list of people that you like? (As you tell me I'm a cult leader for suggesting people keep an independent mind.) Abstain from reading labels, because their little brains can't handle the information?


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## DaViking (Sep 27, 2011)

MNBark said:


> Only listen to the small list of people that you like?


To his defense; The amount of dog owners, parents and handlers out there that basically share the same view, but not necessarily the delivery, surely outnumbers the limited selection of opinions you will find here, by a wide margin. First of all you will not find many of them frequenting boards or FB groups simply because they have very little time left between life in general and being active with their dogs. Secondly, of those who do join in the conversation here quickly find out that 80% of their time here are spent defending themselves against outcries, indignation and low level questioning over something that was said that would not raise many eyebrows in other circles of knowledgeable and experienced dog owners. Result is, they mostly fade away. Now, you can say that that big majority out there are misguided (some obviously are but that's not the majority I am talking about here) and on the wrong path. That would in turn imply that you mean those are not doing their research and homework, and that is what I feel Monster was referencing when he first used the word "arrogance" Maybe I am wrong, but that's how it reads to me.


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## MNBark (Jan 23, 2013)

DaViking said:


> To his defense; The amount of dog owners, parents and handlers out there that basically share the same view, but not necessarily the delivery, surely outnumbers the limited selection of opinions you will find here, by a wide margin. First of all you will not find many of them frequenting boards or FB groups simply because they have very little time left between life in general and being active with their dogs. Secondly, of those who do join in the conversation here quickly find out that 80% of their time here are spent defending themselves against outcries, indignation and low level questioning over something that was said that would not raise many eyebrows in other circles of knowledgeable and experienced dog owners. Result is, they mostly fade away. Now, you can say that that big majority out there are misguided (some obviously are but that's not the majority I am talking about here) and on the wrong path. That would in turn imply that you mean those are not doing their research and homework, and that is what I feel Monster was referencing when he first used the word "arrogance" Maybe I am wrong, but that's how it reads to me.


I'm not in any way judging his list, or saying he found the only people on the planet that felt this way, but pointing out that my short acquaintance with him involves him accusing me of being an uneducated cult leader for my suggesting people be nice to others and encourage others to invest attention in what they feed their pets -- to find their own informed path, even if it diverges with mine. He accuses me of beliefs I don't hold, while personally exhibiting all the behaviors he inexplicably ascribes to me. He tells me I am posting to the wrong board because I don't dismiss people who feed raw.I really don't know what to do with the last one. 

My saying to share information and experiences, and to not give people a hard time over they feed, is somehow translated as judging others -- all while he judges others. Which would make sense ... in bizarro world.


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## monster'sdad (Jul 29, 2012)

MNBark said:


> I'm not in any way judging his list, or saying he found the only people on the planet that felt this way, but pointing out that my short acquaintance with him involves him accusing me of being an uneducated cult leader for my suggesting people be nice to others and encourage others to invest attention in what they feed their pets -- to find their own informed path, even if it diverges with mine. He accuses me of beliefs I don't hold, while personally exhibiting all the behaviors he inexplicably ascribes to me. He tells me I am posting to the wrong board because I don't dismiss people who feed raw.I really don't know what to do with the last one.
> 
> My saying to share information and experiences, and to not give people a hard time over they feed, is somehow translated as judging others -- all while he judges others. Which would make sense ... in bizarro world.


You can play your intellectual shell game for as long as you like. The mere fact you started a thread with this title suggests you feel you have some obligation to educate others and your ultimate goal is clear as crystal. 

So, unless you have letters at the end of your name, have published somewhere, have titled dogs in some area of competition, then your advice is just an opinion, which you are entitled to.

You will quickly find out on this forum that every problem known to dogs is Purina's fault, and that every problem can be cured with supplements or herbs. You will also discover a broad opinion that companies that have expertise in extreme competition somehow aren't qualified to make foods for the pet dog. 

In other words, the pet dog requires superior food than a hunting dog that runs with horses in 90 degree heat for 10 miles. That is Bizarro World.


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## MNBark (Jan 23, 2013)

monster'sdad said:


> You can play your intellectual shell game for as long as you like. The mere fact you started a thread with this title suggests you feel you have some obligation to educate others and your ultimate goal is clear as crystal.
> 
> So, unless you have letters at the end of your name, have published somewhere, have titled dogs in some area of competition, then your advice is just an opinion, which you are entitled to.
> 
> ...



I think we all have an obligation to share information with one another. Nowhere did I say I was an expert on anything, other than my own experiences. As you say, opinions. This thread is about not being mean to others, and remembering how much we have in common as pet owners -- not about my belief that I am the possessor of the one truth. All I know is that I don't know much. 

I tried to PM you last night, to ask that we start again, but your PM box seems to be full. You seem to have some very odd beliefs about me, and I'm sorry for any unintentional part I had in causing that. Could we take a step back? I don't want to be made to feel uncomfortable here, and I don't want to be unpleasant toward you.

Comments added here to respond to your edits:

I have made no comments on what to feed performance dogs, nor have I given you a hard time for what you feed -- I don't even know what you feed. You don't know what I feed. Why are we even at odds?


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## Celt (Dec 27, 2010)

I don't know about others but I have had people come to me and ask what I feed my pups because of (enter various reasons here). Am I to tell them, "sorry, I don't have a degree in nutrition, so I can't tell you what I feed that most likely resulted in (enter the above reason)" ? This is the message I get from you monsterdad. On the other hand, MNBark gives me the impression that one should tell of their experience and make suggestion of what diet one considers to be "better" than what is being fed from that personal experience. Encouraging others to look into what they feed and what diets are available is not being arrogant. Afterall, the person may end up discovering the foods you prefer and deciding to feed that instead of Beneful or Ol' Roy. It is never bad to tell someone to go an educate themselves after all how can a person form an educated opinion if they never search for information themselves. (as a reminder: I don't feed a specific diet, believe in only a specific health care and almost all my dogs have lived to their mid to late teens with shiny coats, no to minor illnesses and plenty of energy to perform at some tough real life activities, not just competition. Oh, I'm most definitely not young and have quite a bit of life experiences).


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## Herzo (Feb 5, 2011)

MN don't take it personal I think he just took what you said wrong and I see nothing bad in what you were trying to say. I do believe I understand it and I do agree with it.

MD the thing is YOU do your research so no I don't think you should take the advice of anyone here. If you have a question you look it up yourself and make your own decision. Man if I could only get my neighbors to feed Pro Plan I would be happy or even better Dr. Tim's, that's the thing I think the op is trying to say. Would you disagree with that, say I told someone I think you should give Dr. Tim's a try?

Is that arrogant? I personally don't think so, because I do believe it is better than Beniful or pedigree. And yes sometimes they should see a Vet but I am like Sheltielover I would take Liz's advice on many, many things before a vets so that would be why I would ask here first.

Now I know most vets are not maybe this way but around here we mostly have vets that do it all< I mean they have to do large animals plus pets so maybe they aren't as picky I don't know. That may not be the right way to say it I'm not sure how.

Little story, but years ago my Abigail got sick, not really anything to put your finger on she just was lethargic and I had to help her up the stairs. I did call the vet and she didn't know what it was just to watch her and call back if I needed to. So like Sheltielover I started giving her Colloidal Silver and she got better. The point of the story even a vet doesn't always know whats wrong.

I think if you want to mention that someone needs to go to the vet fine and dandy, do it, if someone else wants to make another comment fine and dandy. After all there is an OP that did ask a question and then it is up to them to make there own decision.


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