# Best kibble for dog with IBD and anal gland problem



## kimouette (May 2, 2012)

Hi everyone,

I'm posting this question for one of my friend who has a 35 lb pound that has not been officially diagnosed with IBD but since the vet dont know what she has he thinks the only possible disease left that could explain her symptoms is IBD. They have not found any worms in her feces and she keeps on having these intestinal problem : mucus in her feces, soft stool, recurrent anal gland problem, vomiting. She is a very stressed dog, but now we want to change her food for something that could possible help solve some of these problems.

Which brand would you guys recommend for her?
I was thinking maybe Orijen or Welness Core... but I dont know what to look for in terms of food analysis (high protein? Low carb? low fat?)

Thanks for your help
Kim


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## DaViking (Sep 27, 2011)

kimouette said:


> Hi everyone,
> 
> I'm posting this question for one of my friend who has a 35 lb pound that has not been officially diagnosed with IBD but since the vet dont know what she has he thinks the only possible disease left that could explain her symptoms is IBD. They have not found any worms in her feces and she keeps on having these intestinal problem : mucus in her feces, soft stool, recurrent anal gland problem, vomiting. She is a very stressed dog, but now we want to change her food for something that could possible help solve some of these problems.
> 
> ...


Hi Kim 

First of all what is she eating right now? How often does the vomiting happen? Is she constantly eating grass? What breed and how old? A stressed dog can mean many things and certainly can affect digestion. Why do you think she is stressed?


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## PDXdogmom (Jun 30, 2010)

You seem to be describing symptoms of colitis . . . which doesn't identify the cause but is an outcome of an underlying problem.

Without knowing more, and only drawing on experience with my own dogs, I'd suggest trying an extremely simple kibble formula - assuming your friend wants to feed kibble rather than home-cooked which can be very helpful. California Natural Lamb Meal & Rice Puppy (I suggest puppy because it has the better protein/fat % of 26/16) is as simple as it can get: Lamb meal, brown rice, sunflower oil, rice and a vitamin/mineral package. 

Starting a probiotic that contains FOS (Fructooligosaccharides) could improve the gut flora also.


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

:usa::usa::usa::usa::usa:


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## DDBsR4Me (Jan 23, 2012)

I would think a LID diet would be best considering the symptoms. 


I'm with PDX's suggestion of California Natural. I think Natural Balance also makes LID diets, but I don't remember if they are part of the recall?


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## Makovach (Jan 24, 2012)

DDBsR4Me said:


> I would think a LID diet would be best considering the symptoms.
> 
> 
> I'm with PDX's suggestion of California Natural. I think Natural Balance also makes LID diets, but I don't remember if they are part of the recall?


Natural Balance was part of the recall because some of it was manufactured by Diamond. 

I wouldn't know about kibble- maybe something basic with as few ingredients as possible, but I've had lots luck with loosing gastrointestinal problems and anal glands with Annie switching to raw.


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## kimouette (May 2, 2012)

Thanks so much for all the answer! You guys are great!
Now I'll try to answer all the questions:


> First of all what is she eating right now?


 She is eating scrap! Or to be more specific, she eats Royal Canin Gastro intestinal Moderate calorie : Gastro Intestinal Moderate Calorie Dry / Veterinary Therapeutic Formulas / Canine Nutrition / Veterinary Exclusive Nutrition / Home - RoyalCanin


> How often does the vomiting happen? Is she constantly eating grass?


 Funny you mention grass cuy she used to eat grass pretty often which of course caused vomiting. But now that the vet has prescribed her Famotidine (Pepcid for dog) she doesn't vomit. Isabelle has tried to stop giving her that medicine and the dog vomited less than an hour after eating.


> What breed and how old?


She is a mix of Fox Terrier (I dont know if that's the right name in english) and Maltese dog


> A stressed dog can mean many things and certainly can affect digestion. Why do you think she is stressed?


Maybe I should have given more details in the first place. Isabelle, the dog owner, has multiple sclerosis and all she has in the world is that dog. She did go through a lot of hard times during her life and since the dog is so close to her, I believe she is just like her : not healthy, nervous (affraid of lightening, of other animals, of firecrackers, of the oven, of flies, ect...). That dog basically needs a training with Cesar Milan! Isabelle knows all this, and she is doing her best to stay calm and help her dog get rid of all her fears... but it's not easy! And with all these expensive visits to the vet and the dog not getting any better, she is just getting even more tensed and sad, and of course the dog also feels it.



> Without knowing more, and only drawing on experience with my own dogs, I'd suggest trying an extremely simple kibble formula - assuming your friend wants to feed kibble rather than home-cooked which can be very helpful. California Natural Lamb Meal & Rice Puppy (I suggest puppy because it has the better protein/fat % of 26/16) is as simple as it can get: Lamb meal, brown rice, sunflower oil, rice and a vitamin/mineral package.
> 
> Starting a probiotic that contains FOS (Fructooligosaccharides) could improve the gut flora also.


She has started giving plain low fat yogurt to her dog recently and I have found a probiotic supplement for dogs that I'll give her next saturday.
About the question I was asking in the first place (which food to give) I decided to try something much more radical, and Isabelle is ready to try it : next saturday she'll get 2 weeks supply of pre-made (expensive) raw food. It's a local brand in Quebec and they seem to have a lot of success with dogs with intestinal problem, especially the one made with horse, grain free :
Recette à base de viande chevaline sans céréales

So we'll see how that goes... if the dog doesn't respond well to that diet, we'll go back to kibbles... 



> I would think a LID diet would be best considering the symptoms.


May I ask wath LID means?



> I wouldn't know about kibble- maybe something basic with as few ingredients as possible, but I've had lots luck with loosing gastrointestinal problems and anal glands with Annie switching to raw.


I hope we'll be able to say the exact same thing by next week!!

Fingers crossed that the raw food is not gonna make things even worse ray:

Here are 2 pictures she wanted to share. The first one shows her dog and the second one... please forgive me I know it's discusting, is showing that weird texture that oftenly gets out of her butthole


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## DaViking (Sep 27, 2011)

kimouette said:


> Thanks so much for all the answer! You guys are great!
> Now I'll try to answer all the questions:
> She is eating scrap! Or to be more specific, she eats Royal Canin Gastro intestinal Moderate calorie : Gastro Intestinal Moderate Calorie Dry / Veterinary Therapeutic Formulas / Canine Nutrition / Veterinary Exclusive Nutrition / Home - RoyalCanin
> Funny you mention grass cuy she used to eat grass pretty often which of course caused vomiting. But now that the vet has prescribed her Famotidine (Pepcid for dog) she doesn't vomit. Isabelle has tried to stop giving her that medicine and the dog vomited less than an hour after eating.
> ...


Such a cute face :smile:

Her whole digestion is clearly greatly upset for some reason and the pepcid is only hiding the problem. First of all, have she ever had an x-ray and an ultrasound done to check for growths or tumors in the stomach region?

Premade raw patties might be the right place to start here. My french is on the weak side so I didn't understand all the ingredients :smile: Even if it is raw it seemed to contain a lot of ingredients, all of which can affect acid levels in a way she can't tolerate. Or she might be allergic to one or several of the ingredients, raw or not. But yeah, go with that raw mix for a little while and see how it goes. If it doesn't work out I'd look into California Natural as PDXdogmom mentioned or Back To Basics Pork formula which is also a very basic no frills formula. Do you have Global Pet Foods stores in QC? If yes you should be able to find Back To Basic there.


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## Jacksons Mom (Jun 13, 2010)

I don't have much to add - but WOW what a gorgeous face!


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## DDBsR4Me (Jan 23, 2012)

kimouette said:


> May I ask wath LID means?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Limited ingredient diet


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## DaViking (Sep 27, 2011)

A follow up to my earlier reply. If the raw patties doesn't work out and you can't get B2B or California Natural, trying Horizon Pulsar Fish or First Mate Chicken & Blueberries could be worth a shot. They are both Canadian and should have good distribution everywhere. Dogs with sensitivities, allergies and IBD seem to do well on both formulas. First Mate use a single source of protein and a single source of carbohydrates, that is pretty unique. Pulsar is extremely easy on the digestive system. Here is a Facebook response from Horizon's nutritionist re sensitivities.



> Carbs are good for sensitive stomachs as they don't produce
> acid when they are digested and are very easy to digest. Low GI carbs
> help with the dog's inflammation response which can really help
> especially if it is irritable bowel syndrome that is causing the
> ...


"This leads to the very dense and overly dry bowel movements that
while are easy to pick up, are not doing your dog any favours."

This is an interesting statement. It's a whole new school emerging. Think I'll do a separate thread on that subject.


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## kimouette (May 2, 2012)

Lassie started raw horse meat (Karnivor food) 4 days ago. It's hard to conclude at the moment. I dont know if the signs are telling us that soon she will need to eat something else, or if it's just normal during the first couple of days.

First day on Karnivor all dogs got BLACK stool, but ok consistency though... even Lassie who I thought would have a terrible diarrhea. After 2 days, all the other dogs have normal color stool, except Lassie.. still black but sometimes dark brown.

Also, Lassie used to go for a poo only once a day, now she goes 3 times a day!
Like I said her stool has normal consistency, but now she has a farting problem!

Do all these symptoms sound normal to you guys?
And if so, how long can it take before her body should be completely used to her new diet? Period after which we should start thinking that this food is not a good option for her...


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## kimouette (May 2, 2012)

After 1 week on raw horse meat, Lassie decided she doesn't like that meat anymore. My friend had to force her for the past 3 days and yesterday Lassie vomited all of her food right after eating it. So we're back to square 1 

Daviking, I was looking at the food you mentionned and I was wondering :

- About Horizon Pulsar Fish... there are so many ingredients, why would you recommend this one in particular?

- About first Mate Chicken & Blueberries.. why do they claim "84% Protein From Chicken, 16% Protein From Potato" while the first ingredient is potato? And why is it so low in protein?

Or maybe we should try another sort of raw meat instead of going back to kibbles?


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## Caty M (Aug 13, 2010)

kimouette said:


> After 1 week on raw horse meat, Lassie decided she doesn't like that meat anymore. My friend had to force her for the past 3 days and yesterday Lassie vomited all of her food right after eating it. So we're back to square 1
> 
> Daviking, I was looking at the food you mentionned and I was wondering :
> 
> ...


Potato is low in protein, so it can still be the first ingredient whilst only providing 16% of the total protein. Personally I would not feed a food low in meat content/protein.

I feed raw here with great results, if you'd like to read up on the best way to start, read Dedicated to proper carnivore nutrition - Prey Model Raw Feeding for Dogs & Cats. Best to start out on chicken, I'd imagine horse meat is quite rich.


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## DaViking (Sep 27, 2011)

Caty M said:


> Potato is low in protein, so it can still be the first ingredient whilst only providing 16% of the total protein. Personally I would not feed a food low in meat content/protein.


The First Mate formula is *not* a low meat formula. Since there are so few major ingredients the amount of meat per weight unit is likely higher than many other competitors. Ok, maybe it wouldn't hurt if they boosted the protein level a tad upwards but to be honest, most dogs here would have to burn that excess protein off and create unnecessary bodyheat. 25% is perfectly fine and the more from animal sources the better. The body doesn't care about distribution and percentages. 25% protein as number two ingredient and also the only real source of proteins means there is a lot of it, and of good quality with only 7% ash. It would be a little iffy if it contained other sources of proteins like soy and/or corn but it is not. The next non fat ingredient is blueberries. I have no problems recomending this to anyone and I think it is a great alternative as a ultimate kibble LID. Potatoes, chicken, blueberries and vitamins/trace nutriens/macro nutrients, that's all it is.


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## DaViking (Sep 27, 2011)

kimouette said:


> After 1 week on raw horse meat, Lassie decided she doesn't like that meat anymore. My friend had to force her for the past 3 days and yesterday Lassie vomited all of her food right after eating it. So we're back to square 1
> 
> Daviking, I was looking at the food you mentionned and I was wondering :
> 
> ...


Sounds like this poor dog got severe digestive issues. Here's what I would do. I would pick up a small bag of the First Mate chicken & blueberries. Start feeding small amounts of that together with some boiled white rice and possibly some good quality digestive enzymes. I am not a good person to ask about the various enzyme products out there. She will have an upset digestive system for a little while but she should settle down after two weeks.

If that fails I would try to find a person close to you who feeds PMR and ask if she/he can acts a mentor and coach while transitioning to a strict PMR diet. You can also get lot's of good advice here in the raw section and I am sure many of them would be willing to help you guys on a daily basis here. Problem with doing it over the internet is that it's always subtleties with a sick dog that needs not to be overlooked and not all advice is great advice. A knowledgeable person near by would be the best.


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## Roo (Oct 17, 2010)

One of my dogs, Lola, has a history of having chronic colitis and digestive issues, and also happens to have a very close bond with me. She would have terrible episodes of pain/cramping, mucous bloody loose stool, anal glad issues, gas, occasional vomiting, refusal to eat etc. These symptoms would all come and go, but seemed to be affected by her diet, and also stress (if we traveled, a change in routine, vet visit etc.). We tried everything for almost 3 years, different commercial dog foods (limited ingredient, canned, high quality foods, grain free foods, vet rx foods etc.), and supplements probiotics, digestive enzymes, canned pumpkin, etc. and none of it helped or seemed to make much of a difference in her condition.

Frustrated, I finally tried a homemade raw diet (prey model) after almost 3 years of her having issues, and she improved greatly, but it wasn't an overnight thing or a better in a month thing. She actually seemed to get worse the first week into the transition, and I almost stopped, but kept her on the diet and she very slowly started to improve. If you follow the prey model raw diet, the transition should be really slow and gradual, starting out with one simple protein, raw chicken, and then over a few weeks slowly and gradually adding in more proteins so the dog can have time to adjust to them. The transition period for us was about 8-9 weeks before we were feeding 5 different boneless and bone included proteins on rotation and some organs (liver and kidney). After the first 3 months on raw, I noticed her symptoms were less frequent, and by 6 months on a homemade raw diet, they were even more less frequent, but it wasn't till she was on the diet about 9-12 months that she stopped having regular symptoms completely. The very simple ingredient diet (non commercial) that can be free of a lot of ingredients really made a difference for my dog. Feeding home made prey model raw gives her that simple ingredient diet with just raw meat, bones, and organs and it also gives me more control over what I feed her as all the food is individual items and I can adjust amounts as needed. I think the food being raw, helps because it gives her all the enzymes and nutrients in their most natural, easy to digest and be absorbed form coming from a food source instead of a supplement. 

Now about 19 months on a homemade raw diet (Prey model), she doesn't suffer from regular frequent colitis issues at all, she very rarely has an "episode" of colitis and when she does, it's stress related not diet related, and doesn't last for hours like they use to. Even the stress related ones have seemed to lessen also, and we are trying to work with her on her (and my) stress issues. 

A very simple homemade diet raw or cooked may be more helpful for Lassie than any commercial type of diet raw or kibble with more ingredients etc. I would try to take her off of the pepcid medication, especially if the diet you feed is raw. I think diet is just one part of Lassie's problems and that the emotional/stress also needs to be considered as well, treat the whole dog, not just the symptoms. I think too often we don't consider just how much our emotions can play a part in our physical health and overall well being, that may be true for our pets as well, especially if they have a really close bond with us and were emotionally stressed.



> Isabelle, the dog owner, has multiple sclerosis and all she has in the world is that dog. She did go through a lot of hard times during her life and since the dog is so close to her, I believe she is just like her : not healthy, nervous (affraid of lightening, of other animals, of firecrackers, of the oven, of flies, ect...). That dog basically needs a training with Cesar Milan! Isabelle knows all this, and she is doing her best to stay calm and help her dog get rid of all her fears... but it's not easy! And with all these expensive visits to the vet and the dog not getting any better, she is just getting even more tensed and sad, and of course the dog also feels it.


I know giving Lola Rescue remedy during anticipated stressful events has helped, and also trying alternative calming methods like EFT (Emotional Freedom Techniques) or maybe something like T-Touch/Reiki/Healing touch might be helpful to try. Something like Emotional Freedom Technique is in the very alternative/holistic category, and some people are not comfortable trying it or are very skeptical of it, which is understandable. That said, some people, including myself, have found it really helpful with emotional and sometimes physical issues, it's drug free, and easy to learn to do on yourself or your pets. Therapies like EFT can be a nice addition to other more conventional forms of therapy and treatment. 

Not sure if any of the above would be helpful to Isabelle or Lassie, feel free to ignore if it's not, I do hope things are figured out with Lassie soon and she improves.


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## Sprocket (Oct 4, 2011)

OP, if you would like more help with feeding raw, we can happily assist you step by step. The raw section on here is extremely knowledgeable and very active so you can get advice quickly. 

Please make another thread in the raw section if care to :smile:



DaViking said:


> If that fails I would try to find a person close to you who feeds PMR and ask if she/he can acts a mentor and coach while transitioning to a strict PMR diet. You can also get lot's of good advice here in the raw section and I am sure many of them would be willing to help you guys on a daily basis here. Problem with doing it over the internet is that it's always subtleties with a sick dog that needs not to be overlooked and not all advice is great advice. A knowledgeable person near by would be the best.



The Internet is closer than you think 

The advice of many intelligent minds is far superior to the advice of one.


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## Caty M (Aug 13, 2010)

DaViking said:


> *The First Mate formula is *not* a low meat formula. Since there are so few major ingredients the amount of meat per weight unit is likely higher than many other competitors. Ok, maybe it wouldn't hurt if they boosted the protein level a tad upwards but to be honest, most dogs here would have to burn that excess protein off and create unnecessary bodyheat.* 25% is perfectly fine and the more from animal sources the better. The body doesn't care about distribution and percentages. 25% protein as number two ingredient and also the only real source of proteins means there is a lot of it, and of good quality with only 7% ash. It would be a little iffy if it contained other sources of proteins like soy and/or corn but it is not. The next non fat ingredient is blueberries. I have no problems recomending this to anyone and I think it is a great alternative as a ultimate kibble LID. Potatoes, chicken, blueberries and vitamins/trace nutriens/macro nutrients, that's all it is.


I'm not sure what the fat percentage is (I've never actually heard of that food) but if it's low protein, generally it's high in carbohydrates. I don't think the meat content is anywhere close to something like Orijen. I would like to see a LID formula have only one protein source but still be on par with the high protein/fat foods. There really is no option for that right now other than raw.

And high protein/fat is fine for all dogs.. just adjust the amount accordingly if the dog is not that active. Just like the raw diet- all dogs eat the same thing, regardless of lifestyle, except that an active dog will eat more than a lazy one.


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## DaViking (Sep 27, 2011)

Caty M said:


> And high protein/fat is fine for all dogs..


For all dogs? No, it is not. For example carbohydrates does not produce acid while digested, sometimes that might be a crucial factor. Genetically challenged wolfs will die in the wild. For domesticated dogs we have the knowledge to make a genetically challenged dog' life better. Pouring on with proteins, fat and bone regardless of how natural is *not always* the answer for sick dogs. Claiming that is irresponsible and why I suggest getting help locally is better choice than relying on internet forums.


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## DaViking (Sep 27, 2011)

Sprocket said:


> The Internet is closer than you think
> 
> The advice of many intelligent minds is far superior to the advice of one.


Please respect the subject, you don't always need to get your two cents in or argue off topic themes. It's a sick dog with compromised digestion. I directed her to the raw section if she feels ok with that. If you disagree with me or not regarding how appropriate getting local help or not is irrelevant. If she feels ok with the raw section she will post there on her own account.


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## Sprocket (Oct 4, 2011)

DaViking said:


> Please respect the subject, you don't always need to get your two cents in or argue off topic themes. It's a sick dog with compromised digestion. I directed her to the raw section if she feels ok with that. If you disagree with me or not regarding how appropriate getting local help or not is irrelevant. If she feels ok with the raw section she will post there on her own account.


Thank you captain obvious. I am sure she is well aware that she can post where ever she likes.

You are not the DFC police and you certainly aren't my father. There is no need for you to remind me of what I am capable of doing :wink:

Thanks but no thanks.


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## meggels (May 30, 2010)

DaViking said:


> Please respect the subject, you don't always need to get your two cents in or argue off topic themes. It's a sick dog with compromised digestion. I directed her to the raw section if she feels ok with that. If you disagree with me or not regarding how appropriate getting local help or not is irrelevant. If she feels ok with the raw section she will post there on her own account.


I gotta give you credit for sticking around here Viking.

You suggested PMR here and even said the raw section has some good info and you still get people trying to pick fights with you.


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## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

Is horse meat her first protein? Or am I missing something? At the first of the thread it seemed like she was on dry dog food.

If she really has been eating only horse meat, has she been getting no bones? Or, has it been mixed with kibble?

It doesn't sound like a sick dog to me. It sounds like a dog who's not getting fed raw correctly, if all she has been getting is horse meat.

If she wants to feed raw, she needs to start properly:
How to Get Started | Prey Model Raw

I just think I'm missing something about what her dog has been eating.

And if you need someone local to give you PMR advice, then you also need someone local who can give you dry food advice. Neither is necessary, and a ridiculous proposal.


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## Sprocket (Oct 4, 2011)

meggels said:


> I gotta give you credit for sticking around here Viking.
> 
> You suggested PMR here and even said the raw section has some good info and you still get people trying to pick fights with you.


You say that as if he is innocent of any antagonizing...

It does require at least TWO parties to tango :smile:


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## meggels (May 30, 2010)

Not really lol, if someone is set on just arguing.

DaViking was a very diplomatic poster for awhile until the DFC mean girls came into play.

I hope you stick around Viking, you have a lot of kibble knowledge. We need more knowledgeable kibble feeders to help contribute.


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## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

meggels said:


> Not really lol, if someone is set on just arguing.
> 
> DaViking was a very diplomatic poster for awhile until the DFC mean girls came into play.
> 
> I hope you stick around Viking, you have a lot of kibble knowledge. We need more knowledgeable kibble feeders to help contribute.


Disagreement is allowed here, Meg. And perhaps you didn't notice the dig DaViking gave to raw feeders earlier in this thread. Or on the last thread, before the "mean girls" posted anything. 

I am all for knowledgeable kibble feeders. But everyone needs to play nice. Not just raw feeders.


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## meggels (May 30, 2010)

I guess we will have to disagree on DaVikings behavior then  I remember when he first joined and was plenty nice, and plenty badgered.

Everyone *should* play nice, before this forum goes down the drain even more.


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## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

DaViking has much knowledge on dry food. He doesn't realize this, but I refer to his posts alot because in other areas of my life i rarely suggest raw feeding to people who are feeding Beneful. I would like people to at least go to a good dry food, and i don't know what they are. I normally get that information here. 

I do disagree, and will say so, when he defends actions of the pet food companies that to me are indefensible. and when he takes jabs at raw feeding.

i was plenty nice when I first joined, also.


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## meggels (May 30, 2010)

xellil said:


> i was plenty nice when I first joined, also.


I know, I was actually just thinking about that


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## PDXdogmom (Jun 30, 2010)

meggels said:


> I guess we will have to disagree on DaVikings behavior then  I remember when he first joined and was plenty nice, and plenty badgered.
> 
> Everyone *should* play nice, before this forum goes down the drain even more.


I was thinking along similar lines.


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## Dude and Bucks Mamma (May 14, 2011)

If you are starting with horse meat that could be contributing to the problem. Horse meat is a red meat and red meat is often too rich for dogs to start eating unless they are young puppies but even then we don't start them out on red meat right away. For a dog who is already having problems I can only imagine that starting on horse meat would make the issues worse. Poultry tends to be... "gentler" and more mild and easier on a dog's system. 

As others have suggested, chicken is the best place to start with the raw diet. There are MANY threads that would be beneficial to you on properly starting Lassie out on a raw diet over in the raw feeding section.


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## kimouette (May 2, 2012)

Ok, first of all I wanna thank you guys for all your answers!!! I was so glad to read about all those new alternatives. 

Now for xellil and others who though Lassie was fed with 100% raw meat ONLY, I want to clarify this. The raw food she (and all of my dogs) are eating is called Karnivor. It is frozen premade horse meat with other ingredients:

(translated with google translater.. sorry for the mistakes!)
_Horsemeat, chicken bones, horse liver, alfalfa, cranberry pomace, apple pulp biological, organic dehydrated carrots, dehydrated red peppers, zeolite, organic sunflower oil cold-pressed yeast, dehydrated parsley, spinach and beets dried,ground seaweed, dehydrated leeks, herring oil, zinc chelate, chelated iron, copper chelate, selenium chelate, calcium iodate, vitamin E, vitamin D, probiotics(lactobacilli and bacilli sp.), spices, choline , dehydrated garlic. 
Guaranteed Analysis: Protein min. 17%, crude fat: min. 8.5%,crude fiber: max. 2.3%, Moisture: Max. 62%, 1 = 225 g pellet. = 340 kcal_

Since we had to take a quick decision yesterday (Lassie kept on refusing to eat, and after she vomited, Isabelle decided to stop feeding her with Karnivor), I handed her some of my dog’s kibbles (two of them have to lose weight and are eating ½ ration of raw Karnivor horse meat and ½ of that kibble). It’s low in fat, but high in protein: Wellness Core Reduced Fat recipe : 
When I gave her that bag of food, I was thinking.. this is only temporary, I’ll search a little bit more about raw diets and maybe next time I go to the store I’ll grab some Karnivor CHICKEN food for her. But Isabelle me told something very important that has to be taken into account. Since she is sick (she has multiple sclerosis) and doesn’t have a lot of energy, she was hoping to find an easy alternative, like the best kibble for her dog and hope Lassie would get better with it. Raw prey model feeding and other types of homemade preparation would be very demanding for her… which is why she was willing to try PREMADE raw food but not homemade.
I’m not excluding that possibility though, cuz I have 4 dogs that eat Karnivor horse meat right now, and since it's not cheap, maybe I could start the Prey model raw feeding and prepare the food for Lassie at the same time…I have to look into this and will start a new thread as soon as I am ready.
But in the meantime we decided to go ahead with a one week trial on “WellnessCore reduced fat” and see if Lassie’s digestive problems come back or not.



> If you are starting with horse meat that could be contributing to the problem. Horse meat is a red meat and red meat is often too rich for dogs to start eating unless they are young puppies but even then we don't start them out on red meat right away. For a dog who is already having problems I can only imagine that starting on horse meat would make the issues worse. Poultry tends to be... "gentler" and more mild and easier on a dog's system.


Actually Lassie was ALMOST fine with that raw horse meat. Just a little recap :
When Lassie was eating Royal canin scrap food, she had mucus in her stool, of course soft stool, anal glands problem and she was vomiting EVERYDAY. Until the vet gave Isabelle that daily medicine (like Pepcid for dogs).. she stopped vomiting but she kept having those stool problems.
When she started Karnivor horse meat, her stool became dark brown (even black the first time), but it finally had a good consistency! Also, there was no more mucous in her stool and anal gland problems seemed to have disappear. She started to have gas and pooped 3 times a day instead of 1 time a day… but I have no idea how to interpret these “symptoms”. 
After 5 days of eating that raw food, Lassie decided she no longer liked that meat and this is when Isabelle started to force-feed her. After 2 days like this, lassie vomited all of her food, but I’m really starting to think this was all caused by the force-feeding action, not because of digestive problem.

One more thing... I found this : *Natural Dog Food, Cat Food and Puppy Food for Pets With Food Sensitivity ? California Natural*
It doesn’t claim to be a unique protein food with very limited ingredients, but still it perfectly fits that description. Plus, it is 34% protein! If Lassie doesn’t respond well to WellnessCore Reduced Fat and if for some reason Isabelle wont give her another raw food, I’ll definitely try to get that specific brand for her!



> I would pick up a small bag of the First Mate chicken & blueberries. Start feeding small amounts of that together with some boiled white rice and possibly some good quality digestive enzymes. I am not a good person to ask about the various enzyme products out there.


Isabelle is currently giving 1 tablespoon of boiled rice + one tablespoon of canned pumpkin + 1 tablespoon of plain yogurt evertime she gives Lassie her meal of Wellness kibbles. 



> One of my dogs, Lola, has a history of having chronic colitis and digestive issues, and also happens to have a very close bond with me. She would have terrible episodes of pain/cramping, mucous bloody loose stool, anal glad issues, gas, occasional vomiting, refusal to eat etc. These symptoms would all come and go, but seemed to be affected by her diet, and also stress (if we traveled, a change in routine, vet visit etc.). We tried everything for almost 3 years, different commercial dog foods (limited ingredient, canned, high quality foods, grain free foods, vet rx foods etc.), and supplements probiotics, digestive enzymes, canned pumpkin, etc. and none of it helped or seemed to make much of a difference in her condition.
> ...
> Now about 19 months on a homemade raw diet (Prey model), she doesn't suffer from regular frequent colitis issues at all, she very rarely has an "episode" of colitis and when she does, it's stress related not diet related, and doesn't last for hours like they use to. Even the stress related ones have seemed to lessen also, and we are trying to work with her on her (and my) stress issues.
> 
> A very simple homemade diet raw or cooked may be more helpful for Lassie than any commercial type of diet raw or kibble with more ingredients etc. I would try to take her off of the Pepcid medication, especially if the diet you feed is raw. I think diet is just one part of Lassie's problems and that the emotional/stress also needs to be considered as well, treat the whole dog, not just the symptoms. I think too often we don't consider just how much our emotions can play a part in our physical health and overall well being, that may be true for our pets as well, especially if they have a really close bond with us and were emotionally stressed.


Roo, I wanna thank you for that testimonial! Your story is what really made me think I should start preparing the food for Lassie myself. Like I already said, I have to read a little bit more about that diet and just put all my question together before I start. As soon as I am ready I’ll start a new thread in the “raw” forum.



> I know giving Lola Rescue remedy during anticipated stressful events has helped, and also trying alternative calming methods like EFT (Emotional Freedom Techniques) or maybe something like T-Touch/Reiki/Healing touch might be helpful to try. Something like Emotional Freedom Technique is in the very alternative/holistic category, and some people are not comfortable trying it or are very skeptical of it, which is understandable. That said, some people, including myself, have found it really helpful with emotional and sometimes physical issues, it's drug free, and easy to learn to do on yourself or your pets. Therapies like EFT can be a nice addition to other more conventional forms of therapy and treatment.


I told Isabelle about those 2 techniques. Now she has a lot of reading to do!

*Conclusion…* Isabelle and I both have a lot of reading to do! Unless something disastrous happens before next Sunday, Lassie is gonna keep eating WellnessCore Reduced fat food and we’ll try to analyze the situation when we get there. After that, maybe we'll go with chicken (homemade or frozen premade, still not sure). And as soon as Lassie spends 7 days in a row without stool or vomiting problem, we’ll gradually take her off that Pepcid medicine.


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## Dude and Bucks Mamma (May 14, 2011)

My ex boyfriend's (of 5 years) father had MS. I understand her difficulties so when I say this I am definitely keeping that in mind.

When I prepare my raw for my dogs I do one of two things:

-I buy whole chickens or other grocery store/farmer/butcher meat and come home and unpack it just like I do with my other groceries

-I buy in bulk and take a couple of hours after it thaws to repackage it into meals and put them into the freezer. 

With those two things in mind, if you are willing and it sounds like you are, you could very easily go through the process of buying and repackaging meat with/for her once or twice a month and, if you separate it into containers that each contain one day's food, all she would have to do is take it out of the freezer and give it to Lassie.


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## DaViking (Sep 27, 2011)

kimouette said:


> *Conclusion…* Isabelle and I both have a lot of reading to do! Unless something disastrous happens before next Sunday, Lassie is gonna keep eating WellnessCore Reduced fat food and we’ll try to analyze the situation when we get there. After that, maybe we'll go with chicken (homemade or frozen premade, still not sure). And as soon as Lassie spends 7 days in a row without stool or vomiting problem, we’ll gradually take her off that Pepcid medicine.


You have gotten lots of good advice in this thread. It's difficult to do an evaluation between the pepcid and wellness core since wellness core contains so many ingredients and pepcid will mask issues. Ideal would be First Mate Chicken & Blueberry and slowly try to take her off the pepcid. But maybe you want to try the raw route first and that's fine too. Good luck and keep us updated :smile:



meggels said:


> I gotta give you credit for sticking around here Viking.
> 
> You suggested PMR here and even said the raw section has some good info and you still get people trying to pick fights with you.


Thanks meggels, appreciate it :smile:



xellil said:


> And if you need someone local to give you PMR advice, then you also need someone local who can give you dry food advice. Neither is necessary, and a ridiculous proposal.


I love to hang out with other dog owners and learn new things but you are right, a ridiculous proposal, outrageous and outlandish. Wait, hang on... Oh... reality just called and said xellil and sprocket need to get out more. Listen to yourself xellil, you are keyboard warrior that need to get out where life happens. Meet other dog owners, make friends, join a club, attend seminars, talk smack at the park, let others critique what you are doing, listen and learn. Don't just hang out on the internet all day long, your world gets pretty darn narrow that way.


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## meggels (May 30, 2010)

Oh for gods sake

Having a knowledgeable set of eyes to help in person is not ridiculous. It's fantastic.

I have one person I go to for anything, mostly food and health. He's someone I trust, and someone who is very experienced and knowledgeable, and he can easily pick up on something I might not even notice because of one reason or another. Not saying that there isnt great info online, but being able to evaluate a dog in person is very valuable.


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## Caty M (Aug 13, 2010)

C'mon guys.. all of you. Grow up. Let's stop with this pointless bickering which just brings the image of DFC down.. it looks childish. Thanks.


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## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

DaViking said:


> I love to hang out with other dog owners and learn new things but you are right, a ridiculous proposal, outrageous and outlandish. Wait, hang on... Oh... reality just called and said xellil and sprocket need to get out more. Listen to yourself xellil, you are keyboard warrior that need to get out where life happens. Meet other dog owners, make friends, join a club, attend seminars, talk smack at the park, let others critique what you are doing, listen and learn. Don't just hang out on the internet all day long, your world gets pretty darn narrow that way.


Ah DaViking - because Caty asked, I will not respond to this. However, I will say this is exactly what I like to see 

Of course, we know who has to "play nice" around here.


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## kimouette (May 2, 2012)

Hi everyone!

I'm not gonna start a new thread because I have a question about the same dog again. 

A lot of things happened during the last 2 months. If you remember, Lassie is the dog who I believed had IBD and some sort of allergy, and anal gland problem also.
Well for couple of weeks she ate Wellness Core Reduced Fat and with that food she had no more of these symptoms. She was just fine and Isabelle even took her off her medicine! She doesn't puke anymore and her stool always looks perfectly normal. The only problem is that Lassie lost some weight. With that reduced fat recipe it was predictable and since she doesn't need to lose gain at all, I asked Isabelle to buy Wellness Core, but the Original recipe not the low fat. She did that last Monday.
She is still giving her a mix of both Original and Low fat cuz Lassie's health is deteriorating. Now everytime she poops (still normal looking stool by the way) then there is some mucous and BLOOD in the mucous coming out of there. I asked Isabelle to go back to the reduced fat recipe only and wait 1 or 2 days before going to the vet (if the blood and mucous doesn't disappear simply with the food change)

After analyzing all of Lassie's reaction to every kind of food she has been trying, I do notice something constant : Lassie might not be allergic to something in the food, maybe she only reacts to fat ! *Is that even possible? Or maybe it is a symptom of an underlying disease?*
Raw horse meat made her better (horse, veal and skinless chicken are the most lean meat!), low fat diets makes her better, while raw beef and most other commercial kibbles made her worse and provoked these digestive and/or anal gland problem.

What if Lassie only tolerates low fat food? I know dogs get their energy from fat and that not enough fat can even kill a dog! And we're talking about a dog that should be gaining some weight, not losing! What's gonna happen to her if she only tolerates a low fat diet? Can we palliate to the problem by giving her some fatty oils like salmon oil for example, or will it logically be causing that mucous and blood problem again?

Poor Lassie, she is such a complicated dog!


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## Kibblelady (Jul 13, 2012)

Coming in to this late but has this dog had blood panels done? Was anything "off" or questionable? How is the dog doing now?


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## Rvent (Apr 15, 2012)

My boy Max has had a lot of the same issues, he was recently diagnosed with IBD (which for most vets is colitis, inflammatory bowel anything in that category) nothing worked for him either until he was switched to raw, he still had a few episodes...the vet told me to keep him on the raw, add a tablespoon of pumpkin to his meals (I give it to him every other day to every couple of days) to much pumpkin can give problem, to add a pro biotic... I also will be adding a digestive enzyme... he only gets episodes now if I give him something differently in to big of quantity...

there is a lot of good information on this site as well as on the Internet, I do both when it comes to my dogs as well has speak to local holistic pet people. you can never have to much knowledge. 

there are many different pre made frozen raw diets that might be easier for your friend...


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## monster'sdad (Jul 29, 2012)

kimouette said:


> Hi everyone,
> 
> I'm posting this question for one of my friend who has a 35 lb pound that has not been officially diagnosed with IBD but since the vet dont know what she has he thinks the only possible disease left that could explain her symptoms is IBD. They have not found any worms in her feces and she keeps on having these intestinal problem : mucus in her feces, soft stool, recurrent anal gland problem, vomiting. She is a very stressed dog, but now we want to change her food for something that could possible help solve some of these problems.
> 
> ...


Well, if your dog has those symptoms you really need a simple, low-moderate fat, say 10 - 15%, diet that has the right fiber, like beet pulp.

I suggest you look at the Nutram diets, or Pro Plan Sensitive Skin & Stomach. It doesn't have beet pulp but it is a great special situation diet, one of the best.


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