# Bad breeders



## wolfsnaps88 (Jan 2, 2012)

Twoisplenty posted some nice pics of her new litter and brought up the fact that many breeders are not great and it made me want to share my experience of a local lab breeder I worked for here. 

There was an ad in the paper a few years ago looking for help with managing a breeding facility of puppies. Interested, I went and checked it out. 

The horror.....

this facility was a trailer. I am not against trailers, I live in one. however, she had over 40 breeding animals there PLUS litters of growing puppies at different stages of development. They showed me how to clean pens, give water and food, and let out the dogs in packs of five to do their business outside. Those poor dogs lived in cages all day and night in the basement. It was sad. They were unruly and jumped all over me, scratching me to pieces. The lady said to just keep walking and they should stop jumping. They didn't. It was scary having five grown English Labs jumping all over me. I know they were pent up and excited and I felt bad but I was also getting mauled. 

She has had the dog wardon at her "facility" and all they seem to care about is the outside needs to be all metal (the awning and exterior kennels) and some of it was wood. Since the dogs had food and shelter, nothing else was done. So these breeding animals just lived in cages big enough to lay down in and kept churning out babies. 

She lives in the trailer with the dogs. She smokes in the trailer with the dogs. The place is FILTHY! I thought my place could be a mess but wow. Dirty dishes everywhere, tons of medical stuff for the dogs strewn about. There was a dirty microscope in the bathroom. The place was disgusting. And these animals live there. 

While I was there some new owners came to pick out a puppy. I could see on the mother's face that she was appalled but they bought the puppy anyways. I just don't get it. 

I would never buy a puppy from a place like that. She ended up not wanting me (she never told me why but I think it was because I used too many paper towels to clean up puppy poop, its the only thing I can think of that I did wrong there) but I couldn't have worked for her anyways because the place was sickening. She never paid me for the time I spent there cleaning cage after cage of puppy mess. I tried not to get upset and just washed my hands of it. 

I don't know how big in the dog world she is so I am not going to post who she is but if you want to know, I will tell you in private message. Although, I doubt she comes to this site. This is a site for people who CARE about their dogs and not just making a profit. But her website would make you think otherwise. 

People make me sick. 

Just had to share.


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## wolfsnaps88 (Jan 2, 2012)

Ok, I just checked her website and she has moved from that stinky trailer into a huge beautiful house. I guess selling a ton of puppies and saving the money pays off. I know she was at her old location for YEARS as my husband knew her son (small world). Bummer as it contradicts what I told you but I would not lie about this person I barely know. She had an assistant that i recently saw working at a restaurant. That explains the new job. 

I guess I am happy that the dogs she currently has are not living in squalor anymore.


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## xchairity_casex (Oct 8, 2011)

What a terrable experience i dont think i could have stayed there even for aday i would be weeping for them dogs and proably would have tried stuffing every last one into my car.

tonight i responded to a women looking for a "Teacup puppy" didnt specify breed just teacup i replied telling her that teacup is only a selling point that there is no good breeder who would sell her a teacup anything and she just replied "whatever teacups are real my freind has one"
*sigh


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## Sprocket (Oct 4, 2011)

Sounds like hoarder/puppy mill hell.


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## twoisplenty (Nov 12, 2008)

Just because she upgraded to a new beautiful house doesnt mean those dogs arent living in filthy cages still. Its hard to break old habits. To her they are just income  The reason ppl purchase of off ppl like this is becuase they feel they are rescuing the dog from horrible conditions. When in fact they are just supporting this type of breeding operation. If she couldnt sell them, she wouldnt breed them.


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## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

Yep, I'd not believe the dogs also got an upgrade unless I saw it. 

People like her stay in business because morons keep buying their puppies.


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## bridget246 (Oct 26, 2011)

Just recently when I was taking Carlos to his vet visit there was a bull dog there who appeared to recently have puppies. The dog looked old and sick. The guy who had the dog said she was 7 years old and yet he still tried to breed her like he does every year. Why would you do that to a dog that old that isn't in good shape to began with and so many times being breed? He only got 2 puppies out of that litter which disappointed him. That is the worse I've personally seen.


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## Dude and Bucks Mamma (May 14, 2011)

That's disgusting. 

I don't understand the teacup thing either. I have seen people on a facebook page for a puppy store in San Diego asking when they were going to be carrying their "toy pugs". This is a place that prides itself on finding any breed of puppy for you. You fill out a form and they find the puppy for you. I almost filled one out asking for a xoloitzcuintli only out of curiosity. I have huge doubts that they would be able to get one. 

The site is appalling. You have people coming on and saying, "I love my dog but she is twice the size you said she would be" and when I commented on the "toy pugs" comment saying, "The dog is a pug. They have one standard size. They do not come in a "toy" size as the breed itself is already a toy dog" the woman who wrote it said, "No, some breeders call them toy pugs." I didn't respond back but I wanted to say, "Not GOOD breeders".

And when people would say something negative about them on the page they would threaten with "legal action". I wonder what happened to the woman who said, "So you are going to threaten people who have a negative opinion about your business?"


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## bett (Mar 15, 2012)

puppy miller. 
she gets the upgrades, not the dogs.


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## Liz (Sep 27, 2010)

Thank you for sharing. Those are the people that make it so hard for the "hobby" breeder. My dogs have as much of our house as we do and puppies grow up with us. They make me so mad. All legislation makes it impossible for me to breed healthy, happy dogs but is just a bit of a hitch for them in their mill of dogs. 

People buy these pups because they do feel they are rescuing but I think go to a real rescue and support them. If you want a pup with guarantees then pay a good breeder and get the best pup you can. No shame in buying exactly the puppy you want. If you can rescue wonderful but sometimes it is time for a well bred breeders pup for showing, or working or even just for your family. Everyone who rescues know that you are wonderful.


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## lovemydogsalways (Mar 4, 2012)

I could not have done what you did for so long and not had a breakdown. That is so sad.


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## frogdog (Aug 10, 2011)

When I worked for the local Humane Society during my 20's we saw situations like this. I will never forget going to a backyard/small puppy mill breeder of pekingese...feels like it was yesterday. The lady lived in a small trailer and one of the bedrooms housed the puppies in crates stacked to the ceiling...all others were outside crammed in pens without any shelter exposed to the elements. It's a sight that never left my memory. 


It is scarey how the internet allows them to lure potential pet owners with their eyecatching websites of untruthful facts, pictures, etc.


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## twoisplenty (Nov 12, 2008)

I love those who choose to rescue. What you do is fabulous, plain and simple. There wouldnt be near as many dogs in the rescue groups or SPCA's if people stopped supporting byb's and puppymills. A reputable breeder would never allow one of their dogs to end up in a shelter or rescue group. Its only the breeders who main focus is to generate as much income off of the backs of their dogs.


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## xchairity_casex (Oct 8, 2011)

Some times though it is difficult to find a good breeder who is willing to work with you.
ive been looking for a GOOD bull terrier breeder and looking into a prospective show pup. i really want to work with the breeder on this. obviously if i got a pup and she didnt pan out into being a show dog i wouldnt mind she would be spayed and be my lady bully but its hard. i contacted littlery EVERY breeder on the BTCA refferal list and only about 10 replied back many of which flat out sad "NO"
even when i told them i wanted their guidnece and help teaching me how to show an everything.
of coarse ive taken a look on puppyfind and was tempted by some of them but no i will not do that i lucked out with Cesar i must admit he came from a "back yard" breeder thou those people severaly LOVE there dogs everyone they have 8 bull terriers and they all live in the house and have access to the entire thing there couch was coverd in dog fur LOL the dogs were clean and healthy looking but they were not produceing anything but pets and didnt health test. i plan on having Cesar tested for his heart and kidneys once he hits 2 becuase i worry about that.

but anyways i am getting off track. sometimes it CAN be a duanting experience and it can be a long and hardo ne you can run nto rude breeders,you can run into breeders who dont want anything to do with you you may have to wait 5 or 6 years for a puppy,some breeders may just not like you i know a few have thought i was being rude when i was too shy to call them on the phone and prefferd talking over e-mails instead sent the wrong message i suppose.


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## NewYorkDogue (Sep 27, 2011)

twoisplenty said:


> I love those who choose to rescue. What you do is fabulous, plain and simple. There wouldnt be near as many dogs in the rescue groups or SPCA's if people stopped supporting byb's and puppymills. A reputable breeder would never allow one of their dogs to end up in a shelter or rescue group. Its only the breeders who main focus is to generate as much income off of the backs of their dogs.


Yes. Most reputable breeders (at least in my experience) specifically state in their contract that the pups that are sold, if no longer wanted (or if cannot be cared for properly), MUST be returned back to the breeder, and not taken to a shelter/rescue...

In reference to the OP's topic... I cannot understand the inhumanity and insensitivity-- how people can live around such immense suffering of these animals, as this woman apparently did/does. How they can actually do it...???


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## Makovach (Jan 24, 2012)

This stuff sickens me. It makes it so hard for the reputable breeders as people will look at them the same way at times.

I know we have decided that we will probably get another boxer puppy in 3-5 years. We are looking long and hard for a breeder. Besides health testing, we are also wanting limited vac. and PMR fed pup. No more BYB pups for us. We will either rescue, or get a quality pup from a reputable breeder.


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## Liz (Sep 27, 2010)

xchairity_casex I am sorry it has been difficult. I am going to check my natural rearing breeders list to see if there are some nice bull terrier people. I do have to say persistence will pay off. If someone contacts me for a show pup I will talk to them but doubt their intentions for a while. That may be wrong but most just want access to breeding dogs. Breeding is almost a full time job just checking pedigree and balancing pedigree with actual physical standards, etc. I have only placed three pups to show homes without a co-ownership contract and two were to the owner of the stud dog I use and the other went to a long time friend who shows. The others are on co-ownerships. 

If you find a breeder you like. Talk and get a feel for her lines and what she is trying to do with her dogs in her breeding program. Get to know her through email and phone. Then talk about mentorship and your desire for a nice girl to show. I know once I am comfortable with someone I will bend over backwards to get them the best match I can so they can have a good experience with a really nice dog. But people who ask for my best and my time right off the bat are a big red flag. They don't even know what I am about or what is important to me in my lines. Don't give up just start getting to know some people personally and you will find just the right pup.


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## Liz (Sep 27, 2010)

I don't know if you have checked out these bull terrier people. They are on our Naturally Rearing list - I haven't checked them personally but it is worth a visit to their site and possibly and email. If you want you can email me what you are intending to say to them and I may be able to help you tweak it from a breeder standpoint to get your foot in the door.
Email: [email protected]
[email protected]
i am hoping these two are still breeding but I wasn't able to access a website. i would email them though - maybe they can give you a referral.Charles & Cindy Nadeau
Mainely Bull Terriers
20 Knights Pond Road
South Berwick, Maine 03908
Tel: 207-475-6398
Web Site: ME Bull
3+ years of Raw Feeding (2003), Limited Vacc

Hope you find what you are looking for.


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## bridget246 (Oct 26, 2011)

Liz said:


> xchairity_casex I am sorry it has been difficult. I am going to check my natural rearing breeders list to see if there are some nice bull terrier people. I do have to say persistence will pay off. If someone contacts me for a show pup I will talk to them but doubt their intentions for a while. That may be wrong but most just want access to breeding dogs. Breeding is almost a full time job just checking pedigree and balancing pedigree with actual physical standards, etc. I have only placed three pups to show homes without a co-ownership contract and two were to the owner of the stud dog I use and the other went to a long time friend who shows. The others are on co-ownerships.
> 
> If you find a breeder you like. Talk and get a feel for her lines and what she is trying to do with her dogs in her breeding program. Get to know her through email and phone. Then talk about mentorship and your desire for a nice girl to show. I know once I am comfortable with someone I will bend over backwards to get them the best match I can so they can have a good experience with a really nice dog. But people who ask for my best and my time right off the bat are a big red flag. They don't even know what I am about or what is important to me in my lines. Don't give up just start getting to know some people personally and you will find just the right pup.


The best dog to me is whatever ones go best with my personality type. I like them stubborn. I wish we had more people who were interested in breeding who had the dogs better interested in mind instead of seeing them as money makers. I had a disagreement with a few friends about dog breeders. They told me all breeders are puppy mills. If they had things their way we'd have no more dogs. Or worse, only puppy mills because the law chased out all the real breeders.


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## Little Brown Jug (Dec 7, 2010)

Bad breeders are like the turd that won't flush. They just won't go away, they might find no little gimmicks and what have you but in the end they are waste. There is an add up now here for Siberian Huskies. Boosting about over 50 dogs, many new births and how carefully choosen they were from north america, france and "wild mixes". Blue eyed puppies are way more expensive than brown eyed puppies but the price just doesn't vary for their eye color also depands on their markings. The pictures make me so sad. Dogs chained on to shabby old houses in the woods, the dogs themselves look so shabby and a bunch of puppies just running around loose among it all. Just screams to me a bad breeder. I've met two puppies who came from there and neither have nice temperments and not very healthy from the start. I haven't seen either for a few months now though so not sure how they are getting on. Its just so sad.


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## Dude and Bucks Mamma (May 14, 2011)

xchairity_casex said:


> Some times though it is difficult to find a good breeder who is willing to work with you.
> ive been looking for a GOOD bull terrier breeder and looking into a prospective show pup. i really want to work with the breeder on this. obviously if i got a pup and she didnt pan out into being a show dog i wouldnt mind she would be spayed and be my lady bully but its hard. i contacted littlery EVERY breeder on the BTCA refferal list and only about 10 replied back many of which flat out sad "NO"
> even when i told them i wanted their guidnece and help teaching me how to show an everything.
> of coarse ive taken a look on puppyfind and was tempted by some of them but no i will not do that i lucked out with Cesar i must admit he came from a "back yard" breeder thou those people severaly LOVE there dogs everyone they have 8 bull terriers and they all live in the house and have access to the entire thing there couch was coverd in dog fur LOL the dogs were clean and healthy looking but they were not produceing anything but pets and didnt health test. i plan on having Cesar tested for his heart and kidneys once he hits 2 becuase i worry about that.
> ...


I'm having the same problem. I emailed every breeder who breeds standard xolos and I only heard back from four. One wouldn't give me ANY answers to the questions I asked, one sent me the link to her website that is different than the one the Xolo Club of America had listed and also gave me the link to a xolo care ebook, one refused to even discuss the contract with me (which is a huge thing for me as I want an intact male to show but not breed and I don't do co-ownerships), and fortunately, the last one answered all of my questions and put me n his waiting list. I don't know what I would have done had he not been willing to actually speak with me and get to know me a bit.

I know of a great rescue for hairless breeds (Xolo Rescue League) but I do want to show my dog. I think I could easily get a dog from a breed specific rescue but I do enjoy conformation and I want to be able to start with a pup.

Getting a pup from a breeder is definitely a daunting experience.


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## twoisplenty (Nov 12, 2008)

I get a lot of inquiries regarding breeding/show rights. Over the years I have found that people have become very smart in how they approach a breeder and will say anything to make themselves look good. I have only ever given breeding rights out once and it was to a very close breeder friend of mine who has the same breeding ethics I have. I work very hard for my lines and future lines. I invest a lot of time building relationships with breeders abroad cause let me tell you, the Europeans think North Americans have ruined so many breeds that they also are very hesitant to send over their quality dogs. Once I gain the trust of a breeder which can take 1-2yrs I then pay A TON of money to import that dog to Canada and then continue with the hard work that their breeder put into their lines by continuing to health test and pick quality dogs. So why in the world would I just hand over a puppy just because someone claims they are going to show them and want full rights? Life changes, that person might have good intentions and then realize its going to cost a heck of a lot more to finish their dog.

If I were ever going to consider a show home, I would say in the contract that the dog would remain in my name until championed. Then if the buyer does what they claimed they would do then I would sign over the dog into their name. If the buyer does not complete the agreement by x amount of age then said dog is to be spayed/neutered immediately and papers would be handed over on a non-breeding or limited registration. That way if I ever found out the dog had been bred prior to obtaining their title, I would be able to immediately remove the dog from that home.


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## Dude and Bucks Mamma (May 14, 2011)

twoisplenty said:


> I get a lot of inquiries regarding breeding/show rights. Over the years I have found that people have become very smart in how they approach a breeder and will say anything to make themselves look good. I have only ever given breeding rights out once and it was to a very close breeder friend of mine who has the same breeding ethics I have. I work very hard for my lines and future lines. I invest a lot of time building relationships with breeders abroad cause let me tell you, the Europeans think North Americans have ruined so many breeds that they also are very hesitant to send over their quality dogs. Once I gain the trust of a breeder which can take 1-2yrs I then pay A TON of money to import that dog to Canada and then continue with the hard work that their breeder put into their lines by continuing to health test and pick quality dogs. So why in the world would I just hand over a puppy just because someone claims they are going to show them and want full rights? Life changes, that person might have good intentions and then realize its going to cost a heck of a lot more to finish their dog.
> 
> If I were ever going to consider a show home, I would say in the contract that the dog would remain in my name until championed. Then if the buyer does what they claimed they would do then I would sign over the dog into their name. If the buyer does not complete the agreement by x amount of age then said dog is to be spayed/neutered immediately and papers would be handed over on a non-breeding or limited registration. That way if I ever found out the dog had been bred prior to obtaining their title, I would be able to immediately remove the dog from that home.


See, and that's where I have an issue. I want to be able to show my dog. I want to be able to own my dog. I'm not comfortable with only being able to have my family member because I promise to get him some pretty little letters in front of his name. And if my life changes and I can't finish my dog then I don't want to be forced to neuter him because I don't feel that, healthwise, neutering him is in his best interest. I have never been comfortable with co-ownerships. I feel that there is too much room for disagreement. Not everyone raises their dog the same way. 

However, I am more than willing to sign a contract stating that, under no circumstances can my dog ever be bred. I don't know that I would even want the breeder to be able to use my dog for breeding. It's just not something that I am comfortable with. With a xolo, I would consider it since they are not a common breed. I would trust his breeder to use him to further his lines only because he bred the dog himself and knows the pedigree already. I just don't like the idea of my dogs being used for breeding at all. 

I do understand the breeders' side of this whole issue. And it is precisely why I will very likely never become a breeder myself. I don't think I could be responsible for all of the puppies I produced without driving myself to the loony bin. However, as a dog owner, I should be able to, once I have proven myself competent, own my family member outright and be able to keep him in his natural state rather than removing his reproductive system. It's just something I don't agree with. I don't think removing an animals testicles is better for him. For me, it is mostly a health thing. 

Buck is intact (well both are) and I plan to handle him in the ring but if he doesn't do so hot or if I can't show him for some reason, he is still going to remain intact, childless, and a valued member of my family.


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## xchairity_casex (Oct 8, 2011)

@liz and twoisplenty
i can totally understand breeders being so suspicious in this day when everyone is out to bred pups to make a buck and when people appraoch a breeder like that it is a deffinate red flag but i wanted to be open from the begining i didnt wantt hem to think i was trying to trick them and told them my true intentions. 
but as you know liz i have found the breeder i am going to work thru but i do greatly appreciate that info and i have heard of them and at one point i did try to contact them but i do not think they got ahold of me dont know if its due to them not breeding anymore or i put them off or they were busy.

i am not expecting to get a female who is going to be "the best of the best" im not expecting to be like major champions and thats alright by me im starting out im learning its mainly jsut to get started and have some fun mostly what i want to do is therpy work with her,get her certified as a therapy dog and get her canine good citizens certificate as well if she doesnt develop into a good show dog then she will be spayed and be a therapy dog if seh doesnt do well at therapy dog she will just be Cesars little sister and my little lady to dress up in cute doggy clothes and paint her toe nails :becky:


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## bridget246 (Oct 26, 2011)

What would happen if the puppy mills and the byb's didn't exist? Good people would be wanting full bred dogs to show but would probably never get them. I'm not in support of this but it is a problem. Waiting around for years for a puppy isn't a solution for a family that wants one. When I got Bridget I didn't know anything about taking in a dog. I said things about taking her to shows but everyone says that so what would make anyone think that I actually meant it? 

Since I am getting a lot more experience and I am training towards shows now maybe a good breeder would give me a chance. And my chance for this came out of a puppy mill and if it didn't come from there it might have came from a byb. I doubt that any real breeder would have given me much thought.


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## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

bridget246 said:


> What would happen if the puppy mills and the byb's didn't exist? Good people would be wanting full bred dogs to show but would probably never get them. I'm not in support of this but it is a problem. Waiting around for years for a puppy isn't a solution for a family that wants one. When I got Bridget I didn't know anything about taking in a dog. I said things about taking her to shows but everyone says that so what would make anyone think that I actually meant it?
> 
> Since I am getting a lot more experience and I am training towards shows now maybe a good breeder would give me a chance. And my chance for this came out of a puppy mill and if it didn't come from there it might have came from a byb. I doubt that any real breeder would have given me much thought.


I hope you don't feel offended when I say that's a selfish attitude. Millions of dogs are euthanized every year, mainly due to puppy mills. We should not make dogs suffer and die because we want what we want. For every dog that finds a good home, thousands die.

There is no reason to have puppy mills - none. They cause too much suffering. Some BYBs are better than others. Alot of BYBs are just puppy mills on a small scale. 

I sincerely doubt there will ever be a lack of dogs in this country if we were able to get rid of the causes of the huge overpopulation.


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## whiteleo (Sep 7, 2008)

xchairity_casex said:


> Some times though it is difficult to find a good breeder who is willing to work with you.
> ive been looking for a GOOD bull terrier breeder and looking into a prospective show pup. i really want to work with the breeder on this. obviously if i got a pup and she didnt pan out into being a show dog i wouldnt mind she would be spayed and be my lady bully but its hard. i contacted littlery EVERY breeder on the BTCA refferal list and only about 10 replied back many of which flat out sad "NO"
> even when i told them i wanted their guidnece and help teaching me how to show an everything.
> of coarse ive taken a look on puppyfind and was tempted by some of them but no i will not do that i lucked out with Cesar i must admit he came from a "back yard" breeder thou those people severaly LOVE there dogs everyone they have 8 bull terriers and they all live in the house and have access to the entire thing there couch was coverd in dog fur LOL the dogs were clean and healthy looking but they were not produceing anything but pets and didnt health test. i plan on having Cesar tested for his heart and kidneys once he hits 2 becuase i worry about that.
> ...


Have you joined a Bull Terrier Club? This is where you will go to events and hob nob with people in your club who are breeders? Before I joined my club, I had to depend on and it was pretty darned good luck that I found a decent breeder. But now, I have access to breeders who are willing to just re-home their ex show dogs to me and god knows if I had the room or time I would take one and I can get puppies from litters of members when they do have litters but it isn't often as they don't over breed their dogs. You might just consider that you have to spend some time doing something you might not like to do for an outcome you want.


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## xchairity_casex (Oct 8, 2011)

bridget246 said:


> What would happen if the puppy mills and the byb's didn't exist? Good people would be wanting full bred dogs to show but would probably never get them. I'm not in support of this but it is a problem. Waiting around for years for a puppy isn't a solution for a family that wants one. When I got Bridget I didn't know anything about taking in a dog. I said things about taking her to shows but everyone says that so what would make anyone think that I actually meant it?


There are plenty of GOOD breeders where you DONT have to wait around for years if all your looking for is just a pet becuase many breeders understand that and help you find a puppy thru other breeders they know.

since getting started in the Bull terrier world and talking to so many bull breeders its like this huge community you become freinds with one breeder and if they dont have a pup for you in the next litter they can contact other good breeders they know and then if a few of those breeders dont have any pups either then they can contact breeders they know and so on and so forth its like a huge web of breeders all over the US and other countries.
but whne your talking about show dogs and breeding prospects they become worried and skeptical.

the breeder im working with now told me right off he wont sell with full rights anymore becuase he was throughly screwed over by a few people but i let him know right off i want to work with HIM i dont want to start my own kennel or my own name i want to work with him and his dogs and if that means taking the next 10 years to prove myself then you can bet your ass i will becuase this is a passion for me bull terriers are a passion!


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## xchairity_casex (Oct 8, 2011)

whiteleo said:


> Have you joined a Bull Terrier Club? This is where you will go to events and hob nob with people in your club who are breeders. Before I joined my club I had to depend on and it was pretty darned good luck that I found a decent breeder. But now I have access to breeders who are willing to just rehome their ex show dogs to me and god knows if I had the room or time I would take one, and I can get puppies from litters of members when they do have litters but it isn't often as they don't over breed their dogs. I You might just consider that you have to spend some time doing something you might not like to do for an outcome you want.


oh how ive wanted to join the MI bull terrier club! i read there web page when they have events and i want to go soo badley but its very far away and i wouldnt be able to attend the meetings all the time and i have a feeling that might annoy them since i wouldnt be consisderd at all active.

i want to start things up here in Upper MI not a bully club not enough BTs but i was looking around at what places support therapy dogs and there are only a few and none in my town i want to start one,encourage other people to adopt dogs and train them as therapy dogs or have programs at our local library for kids with dogs, the nurseing homes,the schools i want to get the community involved in things like this get some knowledge out about training dogs.

we are very old fashioned up here many people still have there dogs tied up outside people thing im amazing becuase im out taking Cesar for walks everyday (including the vet!)
i would love to use Cesar as a therapy dog but he is too re-active to weird sounds im working with him everyday on this but when he hears a new sounds like a beeping,or a hissing,or a wirring anything new he will start spinning then jumping up and down then hucklebutting i couldnt take him into a hospitol or nurseing home if he did those things.

showing is a little differant then breed clubs becuase i can pick and choose which shows i attend and when plus we have a few shows up here i can attend.

but YES i sooo wish i could join the MI BT club! it would be so much fun i could think of tons of things i could host at my house if it were near me
(you KNOW i would host bull terrier birthday parties for every bully member LOL)


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## whiteleo (Sep 7, 2008)

How far away?


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## Dude and Bucks Mamma (May 14, 2011)

Aaaand this is where I wish I was interested in a more popular breed of dog...

I wanted to join a bluetick club but there aren't any that aren't all hunters and none out here. I would love to join a xolo club but I havenlt had much luck there outside of the Xolo Club of America. Still looking, though!


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## Celt (Dec 27, 2010)

I agree that puppymills are horrid and should be abolished but I don't agree tha all byb are bad. As I've said on another thread, there are some breeds that I would go to a byb before I would go to a breeder.


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## xchairity_casex (Oct 8, 2011)

whiteleo said:


> How far away?


oh only about 9 hours away :/


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## bridget246 (Oct 26, 2011)

xellil said:


> I hope you don't feel offended when I say that's a selfish attitude. Millions of dogs are euthanized every year, mainly due to puppy mills. We should not make dogs suffer and die because we want what we want. For every dog that finds a good home, thousands die.
> 
> There is no reason to have puppy mills - none. They cause too much suffering. Some BYBs are better than others. Alot of BYBs are just puppy mills on a small scale.
> 
> I sincerely doubt there will ever be a lack of dogs in this country if we were able to get rid of the causes of the huge overpopulation.


No offensive taken. A few weeks after getting Bridget I went back to the petstore for another dog. Almost brought a husky. But then I was just like... let me go home, give this some more thought and look a little more into to these dogs because something doesn't seem right. I didn't like what I found so I removed my support. Later on I found I didn't like the paperwork and the stuff the petstore did for me. The microchip that Bridget has no vet can find but the vet who put it in so what good does that actually do for me? The more I looked into them the more problems I noticed and figured I had to be one of the lucky ones. There main selling point took me a long time to understand. When they told me my dog would be AKC registered I thought great since I heard a lot about them I must not be supporting a puppy mill and so Bridget came home with me. Why does AKC allow their name put into puppy mill dogs? After a little more research I was able to find out why that was.

Not supporting the petstores wasn't enough for me. I had to get everyone who was thinking of shopping in one the dirty truth of what they don't tell you. Inquire what they are looking for and help them look through the shelters online if they aren't looking for show dogs. Though some of the shelter dogs could still do sports and have a ton of fun while doing it so it isn't like you couldn't compete with them. 

I still stand by my belief that if we removed all puppy mills and if you took out all of the byb's then some people like myself would have had a hard time finding a dog. But lets be honest here, the puppy mills aren't doing us any favors. Same with the BYB's who are only looking for money. I think these are the reasons we have such strict vaccines policies. 

The thing that bugs me the most and here is what makes me selfish. If I were a breeder and someone like myself wanted a puppy from me I probably wouldn't have sold it to him. I'd worry that there is no way he could succeed. The GSD is being drugged through the mudd. So many pet owners have ran away from my dog and it wasn't because of her size. There has been so many bad experiences with GSD's that they are probably becoming second to pit bulls in terms of people's fear of them. I was able to show those who gave me a chance that you can't judge a book by it's cover and that dogs, no matter what the breed or size, need direction. Some dogs natural pick good directions to go in from the start but this isn't usually the case. 

The shelter that I worked with the most made a comment to me that I was a little proud to hear. He said he couldn't believe a petstore dog looking so healthy and well behaved. I told him the truth. I came a long way from where I was less than year ago and will never repeat that again and my journey with Bridget hasn't ended yet as I still have more to do. Anymore pups I get I would like the chance to meet the parents, see where they live, speak with the owners. What knowledge do they have health wise? Why are they interested in breeding? And the most important thing is records of the parents and a way to reach them if something goes wrong. If I can't get all the above information then I'm not interested.


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## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

There are some that believe the AKC supports puppy mills because they make a fortune off of registering dogs with them.

Did you know you can compete in AKC events with a non-AKC dog? I don't think the conformation shows, but all the obedience, agility etc. you can now do without the registration.


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## bridget246 (Oct 26, 2011)

xellil said:


> There are some that believe the AKC supports puppy mills because they make a fortune off of registering dogs with them.
> 
> Did you know you can compete in AKC events with a non-AKC dog? I don't think the conformation shows, but all the obedience, agility etc. you can now do without the registration.


Yep. If I can get Carlos ready he will join those. I don't even think the dogs have to be full breed.


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## Liz (Sep 27, 2010)

It is super hard to trust people. So much time and effort have been put into my dogs it breaks my heart for something to go wrong. I understand wanting a show puppy - really. My first show quality collie was a young adult - once they trusted me I was actually able to get a second dog from the same breeder. It took over a year and lots of talking and learning. I also found an excellent mentor in my area who though no longer breeding was respected and willing to help me. BYB are the bane of my existence - they can seem somewhat knowledgable and sometimes they actually do care for their pets. That doesn't mean that dog should be bred? They don't care about that? They don't stay on top of research, health, temperament, puppy socializing and all sorts of other issues. They don't guarantee their dogs. They don't take them back. They make me break out in hives just thinking of them - sorry, but pet stores are next. I still get calls years later on health issues, training issues, etc. we still pet sit for many of our pups. I only co-own full registration dogs because that is the only control I have over their lives and keeping them from becoming breeding stock only. If someone truly shows and titles their dog I would probably give over ownership when the dog is titled. For BYB and pet store buyers - who do you call when your pup bites, when he is sick, when the vaccine your vet gave has caused neurological damage, when a family member dies and you need a pet sitter, when you can't get past a training hurdle and need some boot camp? my people call me - whether their dog is 6 months old of 10 years olds. They are my babies which I allowed you adopt - but always my babies. I feel I have a lot more to offer than a BYB or pet store - so getting rid of these two factions would take care of many of the evils in my world. Sorry - I am now off my soap box - and no one in particular was intended as a target. Just info as to how really caring breeders feel.


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## xchairity_casex (Oct 8, 2011)

i totally understand that and i totally respect it and i totally embrace it! im opposite to alot of other people who buy puppys many people want a puppy and thats that i want a puppy but i want to become freinds with the breeder,i wanna talk on the phone or in person with them even after the dog hits 5 or 6 or 10 years old i want to follow along with there own dogs i wanna know how mom and dad dog are doing years later and get to see and maybe even meet half sublings of my own dog i want a breeder who is going to be jsut as happy to follow along with the pup they sold to me as well
and above all else i want to learn i want them to want to talk about everything dog related that they know!

could i be a crazy stalker?...well maybe..just a little but i like to think of it as being loya and freindlyl :tongue:


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## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

bridget246 said:


> Yep. If I can get Carlos ready he will join those. I don't even think the dogs have to be full breed.


I don't think so either. I was going to do it with Rebel but it just got too complicated when I found out I had to walk him on a leash on the left - I have nerve problems in my left arm and he can walk on the left but not on a leash. So I gave up.


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## StdPooDad (Mar 16, 2012)

/start rant/
yes, but you can't compete with deaf dogs. They give some (IMO) idiotic reasons. For that reason and others, I have nothing to do with them. I've been to a couple akc agility events, my gosh, they are so *serious* about everything. Sure you can compete with non-akc breed dogs, but they are second class citizens as far as I can see with akc.
/end rant



xellil said:


> Did you know you can compete in AKC events with a non-AKC dog? I don't think the conformation shows, but all the obedience, agility etc. you can now do without the registration.


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## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

StdPooDad said:


> /start rant/
> yes, but you can't compete with deaf dogs. They give some (IMO) idiotic reasons. For that reason and others, I have nothing to do with them. I've been to a couple akc agility events, my gosh, they are so *serious* about everything. Sure you can compete with non-akc breed dogs, but they are second class citizens as far as I can see with akc.
> /end rant


Yep, I've never done it. I have to admit it looked a little daunting to someone like me who isn't used to all that formality and having my dogs be looked at as second class citizens. I never even thought about it until we went to training classes and my flop-eared bald Dobie was surely not the prettiest and several people sniffed down their long noses at him - but in the end, he was the best


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## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

oh, and my problem with my left arm was not like having a deaf dog but it was similar - they would not allow me to work on the right, and they wouldn't allow me to work on the left with no leash. So ptooey on them


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## StdPooDad (Mar 16, 2012)

I'm sorry if I offend akc people here, but a good friend of mine has a great name for them. "Jawclenchers" as in "oh cedric, do tell how you plan to handle that front cross hmmm?' 

However, having said that I know some really nice people that do akc agility. Not a lot though...
I do nadac, I love it!



xellil said:


> several people sniffed down their long noses at him - but in the end, he was the best


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## StdPooDad (Mar 16, 2012)

My dogs aren't deaf, but a very good dog trainer friend of mine runs a dog rescue that specializes in deaf dogs. 

As I recall, this particular discussion came up recently.

Nah, I better stop now. Just thinking about the discrimination gets me hot!



xellil said:


> oh, and my problem with my left arm was not like having a deaf dog but it was similar - they would not allow me to work on the right, and they wouldn't allow me to work on the left with no leash. So ptooey on them


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## bridget246 (Oct 26, 2011)

Liz said:


> It is super hard to trust people. So much time and effort have been put into my dogs it breaks my heart for something to go wrong. I understand wanting a show puppy - really. My first show quality collie was a young adult - once they trusted me I was actually able to get a second dog from the same breeder. It took over a year and lots of talking and learning. I also found an excellent mentor in my area who though no longer breeding was respected and willing to help me. BYB are the bane of my existence - they can seem somewhat knowledgable and sometimes they actually do care for their pets. That doesn't mean that dog should be bred? They don't care about that? They don't stay on top of research, health, temperament, puppy socializing and all sorts of other issues. They don't guarantee their dogs. They don't take them back. They make me break out in hives just thinking of them - sorry, but pet stores are next. I still get calls years later on health issues, training issues, etc. we still pet sit for many of our pups. I only co-own full registration dogs because that is the only control I have over their lives and keeping them from becoming breeding stock only. If someone truly shows and titles their dog I would probably give over ownership when the dog is titled. For BYB and pet store buyers - who do you call when your pup bites, when he is sick, when the vaccine your vet gave has caused neurological damage, when a family member dies and you need a pet sitter, when you can't get past a training hurdle and need some boot camp? my people call me - whether their dog is 6 months old of 10 years olds. They are my babies which I allowed you adopt - but always my babies. I feel I have a lot more to offer than a BYB or pet store - so getting rid of these two factions would take care of many of the evils in my world. Sorry - I am now off my soap box - and no one in particular was intended as a target. Just info as to how really caring breeders feel.


You know, I've never met a breeder like you. The good quality breeders I've spoken with do managed to breed good dogs but I don't like their very strict way of training and raising. If I came across a breeder like you then yea we could be friends. This might sound extremely crazy but I'm actually trying to contact Bridget's parents to plan a meeting. I've already prepared myself for the worse. I feel like I have to do it if for only learning about their history, whatever history they might actually have. Planning on visiting them around June or July. If they have any genetic problems I want to know about them and that is the only way I can think of finding out. 



xellil said:


> Yep, I've never done it. I have to admit it looked a little daunting to someone like me who isn't used to all that formality and having my dogs be looked at as second class citizens. I never even thought about it until we went to training classes and my flop-eared bald Dobie was surely not the prettiest and several people sniffed down their long noses at him - but in the end, he was the best


You know that is one thing I loved about being on a team with Bridget. I played some games with some of those very formal people who looked down at me and Bridget. Apparently neither one of us were good enough for them. The first week we lost at everything which proved them right. The next week I had trained Bridget for those games just as they had been doing but they weren't as fast as me and their dogs wasn't as fast as Bridget. The look on their face when they lost every one to us was priceless.


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## StdPooDad (Mar 16, 2012)

Was this at a class or at a trial? I could believe it at an akc trial, at NADAC everyone cheers each other on, no matter how you do or who you are! If it was a class, that just sounds wrong!



bridget246 said:


> I played some games with some of those very formal people who looked down at me and Bridget. Apparently neither one of us were good enough for them. The first week we lost at everything which proved them right. The next week I had trained Bridget for those games just as they had been doing but they weren't as fast as me and their dogs wasn't as fast as Bridget. The look on their face when they lost every one to us was priceless.


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## bridget246 (Oct 26, 2011)

StdPooDad said:


> Was this at a class or at a trial? I could believe it at an akc trial, at NADAC everyone cheers each other on, no matter how you do or who you are! If it was a class, that just sounds wrong!


It was a class so yes it was wrong. Since they were going out of their way to avoid talking with me I figured I play the game with them since Bridget was enjoying it and that is why I was there. The following week I had decided to break the ice by introducing myself to them regardless of rather or not they wanted to hear it. Last Tuesday I walked into confirmation with Bridget and the instructor asked me all these questions in a very harsh tone about why I was there. I showed her my card and told her that I didn't care for the tone. She gave me some stupid flustered excuse but was much nicer to me afterwards. 

Honestly if I avoided ever area that I got resistance in I wouldn't have ever went anywhere. My personality and learning style is different from most and so is my skin color. I couldn't be pushed out of school because of the school board but I have been forced out of places of employment without any good reasons. It comes at no surprise that when I show up for a class that their are people there who don't like me. That is how it always starts until they see that I'm safe to be around. 

The worse I've seen was in small town around Columbus. I had been thinking of joining a martial art school so I showed up early to talk with the instructor. I remember holding the door open for the students to enter and greeted everyone as they passed. Not a single person acknowledge me. I really wanted to join just for the chance of sparring against their students. The class was a little too expensive for the training they offered and they didn't believe in sparring so I didn't join.


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## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

bridget246 said:


> It was a class so yes it was wrong. Since they were going out of their way to avoid talking with me I figured I play the game with them since Bridget was enjoying it and that is why I was there. The following week I had decided to break the ice by introducing myself to them regardless of rather or not they wanted to hear it. Last Tuesday I walked into confirmation with Bridget and the instructor asked me all these questions in a very harsh tone about why I was there. I showed her my card and told her that I didn't care for the tone. She gave me some stupid flustered excuse but was much nicer to me afterwards.


Our training class was my first contact with dog snobbery. It just never dawned on me that people actually did the "my dog is better than your dog" thing. I can't even count how many people told me how much they paid for their dogs and it REALLY ticked me off because apparently there is really a bad attitude with some people about rescue dogs. They are just to good to ever own a castoff. GRRRR.

Were the people in Columbus just real clique-y? Seems like they would like having new people come in.


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## bridget246 (Oct 26, 2011)

xellil said:


> Our training class was my first contact with dog snobbery. It just never dawned on me that people actually did the "my dog is better than your dog" thing. I can't even count how many people told me how much they paid for their dogs and it REALLY ticked me off because apparently there is really a bad attitude with some people about rescue dogs. They are just to good to ever own a castoff. GRRRR.
> 
> Were the people in Columbus just real clique-y? Seems like they would like having new people come in.


The owners love new people. It is just the area attracts a lot of real snobby people and the class I had signed up for probably had something to do with it. I don't really care how much someone pays for their dog. I do care about the level of care they will go through for their dog. I do not care about some of their over controlling attitude towards their dogs. And isn't all bad either. In conformation someone let me borrow their leash and collar because I apparently didn't have the equipment to do it. Bridget didn't seem like she was bothered by the change so we were still able to enjoy the class and I'm just lucky I have a dog who puts up with so much and still smiles proudly.


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