# Just rub his nose in it.



## CavePaws

Going through Cyanide and Happiness comics and saw a few dog related ones...This hit home training wise. I've always questioned the reasoning behind "rub his nose in it". I wish most people knew that dogs have a really short association time and wouldn't associate the action of pooping on the ground with being called over to a pile of poop on the carpet and having their nose rubbed in it. The most you are teaching your dog in a situation like that is that something negative might just happen when they come to you and that you are no longer as trust worthy. What other than that are you teaching your dog, certainly you aren't showing them the right thing to do - so how are you ever going to get past shoving your dogs nose in their poop? 

There are still people out there who think it's okay to 'train' dogs this way. How much of it is 'training' and how much of it is 'abuse'? I question that whenever I see compulsive methods used, and unfortunately I've seen far too many wrong things done to dogs under the guise of training. I wish everyone was educated enough to know that there are other, better methods of training dogs, methods that can build your relationship with them. Not tear it down.

Anway, just thought I'd post that little comic because it made me laugh, then think about animal training in a serious manner.


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## DaneMama

"Rubbing his nose in it" is really outdated. All it shows your dog is that you are erratic and untrustworthy...they don't understand that it means don't go in the house. This is nothing more than an attack to a dog. Its surprising how many people actually still use these types of methods.

Thanks for sharing!


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## CavePaws

Yep. It is really outdated. Lots of things are really outdated but people still put them into practice for some reason...I would think prong collars would be outdated by now, with all the other effective ways we know of teaching our dogs to walk on a loose lead or even the other more 'humane' band-aid options. But there are always going to be people who refuse to be open minded. I was actually recently very surprised to find out a popular compulsive trainer who laughed at the idea of clicker training, admitted that he had been stupid not to use mark and reward training. The trainer I speak of is Ed Frawley, trains/breeds working GSDs. I don't agree with much of what Ed Frawley does, so no one go looking him up for advice. But he's a classic example of out of date methods being put to use...Another classic example would be the Dog Whisperer. Talk about out of date methods AND out of date information. Half of the stuff Cesar Millan preaches 'expired' in the eyes of reputable trainers years ago. Unfortunately he has a giant following of misled pet owners.


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## DaneMama

What I tell people is that if you want to know what NOT to do...watch Cesar Millan.


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## stajbs

Man that is so "old school" and it's sad that you still hear people saying it. I have a co-worker who has done it, and later asked me what to do when it happens again because rubbing his nose in it is not working. No kidding, I bet she still wishes she had never asked me because I went off on a tangent about training. I'd bet she is still trying it, but now when she asks me for advice on training I give her a magazine with tips for dog training. You don't want to try my advice about several things so I stick the advice from someone else in her face now and hope maybe if she reads the same thing from someone else and she will think twice about my advice. I know I'm not formally trained, but when I have an issue with a dog I always sit back later and try to figure what I may have done wrong and what I can do differently in the future. This approach, and being willing to learn and be open minded has helped me solve a lot of problems. It's too bad dogs can't speak. lol


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## CavePaws

No kidding, a lot of the stuff Cesar does could get a lot pet owners attacked. Ever wonder why he has a disclaimer at the start of his show? LOL. I think that may speak for itself, his style of training is limited at best. How in the world is a seven year old going to take control of the situation in a physical, forceful manner with a big dog? I know of several ways a seven year old can take control of a dog with other methods of training that don't involve physically forcing the dog into what you want them to do.

Ya, I've had two people I'm actually close to who thought that making the dog look at the poo and smell it was the way to go, Stajbs. They were misinformed and when they saw the progress their dog made in potty training through more neutral + positive methods the tune they had been singing all along quickly changed. Unfortunately some dogs will continue carrying the emotional damage their owner has caused to them via these dumb 'out of date' training methods, even when methods are switched to positive reward based. It's nice of you to give her training tips and magazines, the only magazines dog related I receive regularly are Clean Run and APDT...They usually contain quite a bit of helpful info, agility wise and training wise. Any you've read or recommend that are good? I've found that the web is a great place for info, both free and e-books/vids you can buy online!


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## eternalstudent

Like most first time dog owners I have been given a fair selection of helpful hints and tips from other dog owners like:
Rub her nones in the pee ( a bit pointless as she was potty trained in 14 hours )
if she jumps up knee her in the chest - from a ex dog trainer
The first thing you need to do is she is demanding attention is bite her (just below the cheek)
If she growls just smack her and if she does it again just smack harder you will know how hard do do it as it will change her response.

I don't know how many of these would have been said to me if I owned a poodle or a lab not a rottie.

Any way I was watching extraordinary dogs on channel five (this is a link and I think it works internationally http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_0jAEbNWvrA) and 8 min 39 seconds in I see this.










Now this is an assistance dog, later on you find out that they train all there dogs this way!!! and the collar was on throughout the show, not just when the dog was out doors but all the time.


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## CavePaws

I can't see the vid D: What happens to the dog?

Good thing you're smart enough not to take advice like that, I feel bad for the dogs with owners who do use those methods to 'train' them. :|


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## eternalstudent

I'll try and find a link of the clip rather than the uk tv channel. Nothing happens on screen to the dog other than it being a very obedient animal, but I think that is the point it is just that obedient. If the dog needs to have the prong on all the time my assumption is that it is not trained. Certainly in the uk where it is impossible to by a prong on the high street no assistance, therapy or guide dogs would ever be released to there new owners if they needed a check chain!!

My understanding of the prong collar (which is limited) is that it can be a very good training tool in the correct hands. but it is supposed to be a training tool not an everyday working collar.

Thankfully I have a very good trainer and vet (also a dog behaviourist) who have been very helpful and supportive of the complete noob to rotti ownership. They have only recently told me what there first impressions where when I came in the class, and needless to say they were under the impression that I would end up with a totally dysfunctional dog. Yes even the vet reckoned that the most likely thing to kill my dog was going to be him 12 months down the line (that was said at our vaccination appointment). 

Although not quite at 12 month ownership, there opinions have changed and for the moment I have a very happy loveable pet


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## CavePaws

I think there are other more humane ways of teaching a dog to give you attention, rather than having to physically prompt them constantly with a device like a prong collar. There are just so many things I can think of that are wrong with prong collars that go against the way I would teach someone to train their dog...To me a prong collar is no better than an electric collar or spray collar on a very low setting. I'm not saying that a prong collar, electric collar, and spray collar aren't effective in the right hands, they can be for whatever it is you're trying to *extinguish*. I wouldn't use them though, I prefer to see a nice end result and if it takes me a little extra time to get there at least I know I didn't damage my dog or the way she/he relates to me on the way to that end result. I don't think a prong collar, electric collar, or spray collar have any place at all in the learning stages of a new trick. I consider almost anything you would teach your dog a trick, so in my world a prong collar has no place in the learning process of loose leash walking. The main use of a prong collar is to stop the dog from pulling, right? What happens when you take the prong collar off and put a regular collar on? In the absence of that constant pinching I bet your dog isn't going to understand what loose leash walking really is. That's why I would call a prong collar a band-aid, and it's not a good band-aid either - there are more humane, effective harnesses and halters out there now for your pet. To name two that I regularly sell to clients, Easy Walkers and Gentle Leaders. They are band-aids and in no way are meant to replace the learning of loose leash walking.

Anyway...I've worked with a lot of Rottweilers, they are my FAVORITE breed of all time. :] I've wanted a rotti or a siberian husky since I was a wee little kid and I haven't had the chance to own either breed yet, but I've had the chance to train both breeds. Why did they think your dog would end up dysfunctional? Is she or he a really rowdy pup?


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## eternalstudent

They thought my pup would end up dysfunctional because I had not the slightest bit of ability. I was (probably still am) a case of the person who had read everything there was to read on the subject, I had books coming out of my ears that I had borrowed from the library. I had read everything on pup training from the dummies guide, right through to the dog whisper and read countless websites. Then I got my pup and really did not know what to do.

I had made the choice to go down the gentle training ( half my sources ) but most people thought I was too soft on my pup. They were worried that I would not be able to instil any boundaries and a rotti with no boundaries is not going to last long.

My breeder however did give me probably the best pup for my situation (she is considered to soft and was expected to be to big for the show ring). What I have now is a lovely very happy pup who has only had a check chain on her for about 3 hours training time (at 6 months old) and who most people tell me they want to take her home 

The biggest rotti forum on the web is all in favour of the prong collar to stop the dog pulling, lunging and unwanted behaviour, there general impression is that training should be 80 - 90 % positive and the rest punitive. I hope that I never need that last part, although I have come close to it (another post on which is on here) but not yet.

I think that for me the rotti is the best dog, (I have tried to look at others and there is a thread on here asking advice on a few other breeds). However much I like the husky, GSD, retrievers etc I will never be able to have one as my partner is allergic to nearly all dogs.


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## CavePaws

I don't think the prong collar is all that effective of a tool for someone of my size holding onto a 110 lb dog who is lunging. I've found that the gentle leader is a much better tool, I can control their head and muzzle. For a 100 lb girl a prong collar is not a useful or practical tool. I've seen dogs come into class wearing a prong collar STILL pulling. There are some pretty hard headed dogs out there with some pretty thick skin. I don't know what rotti forum you're talking about but I know of a lot of forums who think Cesar Millan is the best trainer ever too, I don't agree. I'm not saying I wouldn't like the forum you're on or don't agree with anything they say there, I just don't think that just because you have a certain breed of dog there should be a formula to training them like 80/20. I think training needs to be 100% positive, even in setting your boundaries, they don't have to be "bad" boundaries. If for whatever reason 100% positive training has not worked for you for quite some time, then I would say you could resort to other things. But a citronella spray collar on a low setting is far more effective than a prong collar in the stopping of lunging. I was told to use a citronella collar on my fearful aggressive dog Indi, it certainly didn't help her any in feeling more comfortable around dogs, but it did stop her from lunging. After two sprays she was too scared to move. Needless to say I refuse to put it on her as it didn't help either of us at all and I felt terrible for days afterward. :| For dogs who are fear aggressive and lunging I don't think there's any place at all for corrective things like electric collars, spray collars, or prong collars. A prong collar is just a nagging tool to a lot of dogs, from what I've seen you don't need nearly as many corrections with a spray collar than you do with a prong collar. Why then would you put a tool into use that takes longer and could possibly do more harm than good? I'm not fond of prong collars in the least or electric collars for that matter and I wouldn't ever use them on my dogs or a client's dog. I think there's a place for the spray collar and that's only in SERIOUS behavioral problems that are not making ANY progress. If you're seeing progress in reward based training, albeit it being slow, continue, have patience, why resort to using something negative to train your dog when you're still able to move forward? That being said there isn't really a place for prongs, electrics, or sprays in _teaching_ a dog not to pull. At the end of the day, it's your dog, you decide what you want to put around his or her neck.

From what I can tell you're a wonderful well informed owner so I'm positive you'll be able to pick whatever is right for your situation with you and your dog. I'm happy to hear you haven't had to resort to punishment in your training yet. I think that definitely says you're on the right track - don't veer! :] I think you're a completely capable owner and trainer and can pick out whatever works for you and your pup. At the end of the day it's your decision, but I think you're doing something right if your dog isn't "dysfunctional"

Then again, I have a "dysfunctional" dog, she was born that way, not much I can do about it but work with her. Indi has aggression that is most likely genetically based, if nurture overpowered nature I'd probably have the best dog in the world right now...But it doesn't always, so I think training is sort of a "know thy dog" and "know thy tools" sort of thing. You've got to pick and choose for each individual.


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## SerenityFL

The problem with tools like that is not the tool, it's the person using the tool. If someone is going to rely solely on the prong collar or shock collar to train their dog, then they will have to have that on the dog for the rest of the dog's life. It CAN be an effective way to train a dog, I'm not talking about tricks...it is ridiculous to use those methods to teach a dog a trick...in fact, I'd call it stupid. 

But, there are times when a prong collar or electric collar can be for good. Not a lot, but there are times.

If someone uses a prong collar, for example, to get their dog to stop pulling and that's all they use, then they are not training their dog, they are just hurting their dog. They need to be training, as well, which is usually the ways that many people are taught to train, (the several, various ways), to teach their dog to heel or stop pulling on the leash. So, in that case, the prong collar is pointless. Just use a regular collar and train the dog. 

In my case, I have used an e-collar. The reason? Where I live. Alligators. One chance. No other chances. I'm not going to have my dog run up to an alligator and be eaten just because someone might take issue with an e-collar. Take issue, I don't care, I'll still have my dog.

I have been told to train them like I would a road with cars. Ridiculous. I know where the cars are, I have a point where I can designate the dog to stop. I can train them around a parked car, a slow moving car, etc.

I can do none of these things around alligators.

I've been told to take my dogs elsewhere to walk and run and train. How many people are willing to get in to their cars and drive 30 miles every single time the dog has to use the bathroom? Serious question because I'm not. That doesn't make me a "lazy dog owner", it's reality. 

I brought the dogs to where I work and introduced them to alligators in a pen. (The dogs weren't inside the pen, they were outside the fence, looking in.) They growled, barked, backed up, got their hackles up, were as menacing as could be and did not want a thing to do with these animals. Good!

Within 5 minutes, I brought them near the water's edge. (Not close enough to be attacked but close enough to see.) They were more interested in the birds flying around than looking at the alligator in the water who was most certainly looking at them. I finally got them to see the gator and they reacted the complete opposite way that they did at the enclosure. 

They were curious, ears perked up, trying to lunge at the gator. They only get one chance. And it doesn't matter if my dog is on a leash, gator might not attack me but it has zero problems going after my dog and snapping it right off the leash leaving me with a partial leash. (This has actually happened.)

So...I got an e-collar. If they get too close to the water's edge, I will call them back. I use voice and a clicker, (treats included if they come back). If they turn to look at me, I mark it. If they start towards me when I call them back, I mark it. I give them a treat and lots of praise when they get back to me.

If they don't? Guess what. Because they get ONE chance. They need to learn that there are certain areas they most certainly do NOT go near and when/if we do see an alligator while we are out, exercising, I don't have the luxury of "trying it again" if they don't listen. 

I can do recall until the cows come home but if we are out and they run to the bush to do their business and there's an alligator close by, they need to know, GET OUT NOW. One chance. When we see an alligator, they get zapped because I DO want to make "seeing an alligator" a very negative experience for them but with me getting them back.

I have asked and asked and asked, in many places on the net if anyone has a better idea. Some people understand, some people stay silent, some people tell me I'm a lazy dog owner, I'm "abusive" (please) and all other things but offer no other solutions so until someone has a surefire way to teach them, I have to do it this way. They get ONE chance with an alligator. And an alligator can be anywhere, not just in the lake. And it's not just about "recall". It's "when they see one" no matter where or when they see it, I want them to associate it with negative so they run from it.

And frankly, I find this to be a better alternative than what my co-workers were trying to get me to do. They wanted me to put my dogs in an enclosure with an alligator, mouth taped up, but with the alligator. I guarantee you that alligator is going to try to get those dogs, mouth taped up or not. If the tape stays on, sure, they won't get bit but keep in mind that the alligator's tail is 75% muscle and it can break limbs if it hits you. I'm not putting my dogs through that. I think an e-collar is more humane than that approach.


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## BrownieM

I used a prong collar to train Millie to heal. I did not use the prong to teach her loose leash walking, though. Also, I no longer need to use the prong because it was effective, she learned, and she transferred what I taught her to everyday situations. A prong collar is a useful tool, is not harmful if used properly, and can be successfully stopped without the dog reverting to pulling.


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## CavePaws

1. I did not say that a prong collar does not work if used properly. 
2. I don't agree with the use of prong collars for teaching heeling; glad it worked for you, I just think you could have trained it another way that does not involve aversive methods. You could have.
3. I will disagree with you that it is not harmful if used properly. If it wasn't harmful then would it work? I mean seriously, that's a bit of a ridiculous statement that it isn't harmful. It can most definitely be harmful to the psyche and relationship between you and your dog.

SerenityFL
I never said an e-collar is not effective. It is an effective tool at extinguishing behaviors, and if there were alligators in my area I would do the same training you did. I agree that with life threatening things where it only takes one shot for your dog to die - like being attacked by an alligator or snake proofing your dog, then it is acceptable to use something as severe as an e-collar.


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## BrownieM

CavePaws, I guess it depends on what you use to define harmful. Let's say Millie gets a correction. What happens? Her tail wags, she prances, she focuses on me. She heels like the most enthusiastic poodle I have ever seen. She gets EXCITED and even more eager to do what I ask. How exactly is this harmful?

Sure, I could have used purely positive methods. But the results I had using purely positive were simply that she learned what I asked, did it most of the time, but she was not 100% reliable. I want my dog to do what I say, when I say it, simply because I asked her to do it. For us, the prong collar was the most effective and quickest way to achieve this. And I promise, my poodle is not any worse off, physically or mentally, after having been trained using a prong collar than your dogs are after using only purely positive methods. :smile:


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## CavePaws

She is more excited than if she were to recieve praise and a treat? I think you're probably missing hidden body language, at the moment of your correction I'm willing to bet she does do something which shows displeasure in some way. So tell me then how is the prong collar an effective tool and how was she learning if she was not associating something unpleasant with the correction? I feel like you're missing the point of what aversive training is and what an aversive tool is. 

I do view it as harmful, you are inflicting some form of pain or displeasure on your dog because she doesn't know what you want.


What I am saying is that you can acheive everything you want with positive methods, BrownieM. Maybe she isn't any worse off mentally in your opinion afterwards, but I strongly disagree with all my heart that she is better off than my dogs or she would be if you were using treats and praise My dogs do what I say when I say it and I use treats and praise to acheive this, I phase them out eventually and no I don't rely on treats throughout the entire training process..Part of training is to only repeat you command once as to not dilute the command because there is a difference between "Sit, Sit, Sit" in a dogs head and just "Sit."


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## BrownieM

CavePaws said:


> She is more excited than if she were to recieve praise and a treat? I think you're probably missing hidden body language, at the moment of your correction I'm willing to bet she does do something which shows displeasure in some way. So tell me then how is the prong collar an effective tool and how was she learning if she was not associating something unpleasant with the correction? I feel like you're missing the point of what aversive training is and what an aversive tool is.
> 
> I do view it as harmful, you are inflicting some form of pain or displeasure on your dog because she doesn't know what you want.


Your argument would be true if I was correcting my dog before making sure she understood what was asked of her. It is quite the contrary. I do not use corrections until I am confident my dog knows what I am asking. Then, the corrections are used because she has a tendency to decide she doesn't always want to do what I say. That is the key to using corrections properly. It is never fair to correct a dog who doesn't understand what you are asking. I don't think any good trainer would ever suggest doing that. New behaviors and actions are always introduced positively and successfully carrying out actions and behaviors are always reinforced with the greatest party, treat, woo hoo! possible. 

Also, I am not missing any body language clues between her excitement level and eagerness when I am training with a clicker and treats vs. a prong collar. I wish you could see the difference in this girl when you only reinforce with treats/clicker OR when you do both praising with treats and correcting with prong collar. The tail wagging, looking at me right in the eye, showing off her poodle prance, etc. does NOT happen when I am only using treats and a clicker. She does not become "loaded" from purely positive training.

I'll say it again. A prong collar really is not harmful if used properly. If you use it right it only delivers a slight pinch. Have you ever put one on? Tried it to see how it feels? It's really not that bad. If I am harming her so badly, why does she not run away at the sight of a prong collar? When I was still using the prong collar and I would take it out of the drawer, she would get excited and walk up to me, stretching out her head so I can put it on. Wouldn't you expect a bit more of a negative response if I were harming my dog? I guarantee it is far more bothersome for her to sit for an hour or two while I brush her long coat, bathe her and then use the dryer to straighten her coat. 

Anyway, I don't have the energy to argue about this anymore. It has been beaten to death on this forum. Some people believe in purely positive and some people believe in a more comprehensive approach, including both positive praise and corrections. I honestly respect someone's decision to use purely positive methods and I think it is an effective tool. I also think that using a prong collar properly is an effective tool and it does not deserve nearly the horrible reputation that it has among the purely positive training method believers.


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## CavePaws

I think it does deserve it's reputation, but that's me. I'm perfectly fine with your using a prong collar, we are not the same person and that is your dog and your opinion. But when someone is paying me for my time as a trainer I'm not going to use a prong collar to teach a dog anything and I won't allow a client to use one on my time. I also will strongly advise someone not to use one if they ask if I think it's an acceptable tool to use. As I said there are so many other tools you can use now to teach these things and if you're teaching it properly or putting enough time and effort into it you don't even need the crutch.

It delivers a slight pinch. It is in a way painful obviously or else it would not work.


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## BrownieM

CavePaws said:


> Maybe she isn't any worse off mentally in your opinion afterwards, but I strongly disagree with all my heart that she is better off than my dogs or she would be if you were using treats and praise


I can assure you she is the happiest dog I have ever seen. I promise she has not been emotionally, mentally or physically harmed from being trained with a prong collar, if this is what you are suggesting?? 

It is perfectly fine to have your own opinion. I have my own opinion but I also maintain an open mind regarding training methods. I think there is a method for everyone and for every dog and there is no one training recipe.


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## SerenityFL

I just wrote a reply and it disappeared. Let me try this again.

I was saying that some tools are affective and it's the people who abuse these tools that give us who use them properly, a bad name. There is a stigma towards those people and I don't think it's entirely fair. 

I think people should train their dogs in a way that works on the dog. Not all methods work on all dogs. The all positive, all the time approach does not work on all dogs. It simply does not. So find what does work and as long as you aren't abusing the tool or the dog, it's fine.

I use the e-collar sometimes. I have tried it on myself on the same setting I have it on for the dogs. The e-collar gets a very bad name. People loathe the thing. And I get a lot of flak because I use one. On level 1, the lowest setting, it was a shock more than pain. I got a shock once on accident and then I did it on purpose just to see if my reaction would be different. It wasn't, it was not painful, really, it was a shock. It was not debilitating or anything worse than walking along the carpet in socks and touching something metal. If that's what it takes to get my dogs' attention when I want them away from the edge of the water, that's what I'm going to use. The calling and coaxing and all positive doesn't work on them.

Using a prong collar doesn't mean one has to yank back on it as hard as possible. A slight tug can give the slightest pinch and gets the dogs attention. If the dog were in pain, it wouldn't be wagging its tail, eager to perform another trick or stunt or whatever. And Brownie is right, if it were that bad, the dog would try to avoid it. I didn't have that issue with putting on the e-collar on my dogs either. If it were so bad, they would cower down when I put that thing on. They don't.

And she is also right that these things should be used as corrections, not "here's how I want you to walk" training sessions. A dog absolutely must know what you want of it before you can ever correct. She's right, it's unfair, otherwise. You should never correct unless you know, 100%, that the dog knows exactly what you want when you tell it. It's when they know and have decided that today they aren't feeling like it or are testing you or just ignore you, these tools are affective. Using them to teach the dog HOW to heel and walk, no, I don't agree with because the dog doesn't even know what you want, yet. And that's what she said, she uses it to correct. But her dog already knows what she's supposed to do.

Anyway, people should find what works for them and their dog as long as it isn't inflicting pain and trauma which I do not believe an e-collar or prong collar do if used correctly. Like I said, I tried it out on myself TWICE. I wonder how many people have done this.

What does matter is that we train our dogs. And when they know what we want, we must reinforce and that sometimes means corrections. Every one has their way of doing it. As long as the dog is not being abused or beaten or screamed at, I see no problem with positive methods, corrective methods, using tools.


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## DaneMama

I think that the same could be said for positive reinforcement. People don't always know how to use it at the precise time and the correct way. So they get discouraged when it doesn't work, which then they go to other more corrective methods like prong collars. They see results because the dog learns they will be corrected, not a pleasant experience- the dog will never ask to be corrected just for fun. Or they see huge progress with positive reinforcement and then skip steps, which sets their dog back. People do this all the time...I do it all the time. The thing to realize is when you've skipped a step or misused positive reinforcement, go back and revise it or fix your own methods. 

*Positive reinforcement *when used right* works on every dog. Its just a matter of finding the right/appropriate kind of positive reinforcer for the dog/context.*

BUT like I advised SerenityFL...there's a RARE time and place for something like an e-collar. Her alligator situation is one of them. Right now...I can't think of another except maybe rattle snakes or something.

BrownieM, I just want to clarify that a wagging tail doesn't show signs of a happy dog. Its the sign of arousal. Its a matter of what the stimulus is. She may be wagging her tail happily and excitedly when you get the prong collar out not because of the physical object...but rather the activity that goes along with it. And you're absolutely right, you haven't taught her that the collar CAN inflict real pain if you yank hard enough, which is awesome. If you had, she would learn to run away from you when you get that thing out. Most people I see with prong collars on their dogs are yanking, yanking and YANKING their dogs....which with each consecutive yank, the dog loses that much more interest and respect for their owner. I respect that you didn't let your human instinct kick in and take over!

Most great trainers these days will never recommend a prong collar. Walking loose on leash OR heeling is easy enough to train positively, which enhances the bond between dog and their human. Research has shown that positive reinforcement training works faster with animals than any other method across the boards/species/world. Corrective training techniques only slow the process making learning more difficult. From all the books I'm reading for my class make things in my own head click...I highly, highly recommend these books to all dog owners. They are all definitely must reads!

ANY book by:

Patricia McConnell PhD (the one below is her best IMO)

Amazon.com: The Other End of the Leash eBook: Patricia McConnell Phd: Kindle Store

Karen Pryor (the one below is her best IMO)

Amazon.com: Don't Shoot the Dog!: The New Art of Teaching and Training (9780553380392): Karen Pryor: Books

Jean Donaldson (the one below is her best IMO)

Amazon.com: The Culture Clash: A Revolutionary New Way to Understanding the Relationship Between Humans and Domestic Dogs (9781888047059): Jean Donaldson: Books


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## CavePaws

Natalie touched on all the points I would have. I think anything I could say would just be a repeat of what she said.:smile:


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## RawFedDogs

BrownieM said:


> Your argument would be true if I was correcting my dog before making sure she understood what was asked of her. It is quite the contrary. I do not use corrections until I am confident my dog knows what I am asking. Then, the corrections are used because she has a tendency to decide she doesn't always want to do what I say. That is the key to using corrections properly.


Baloney ... there is no PROPER way to use corrections period. Forget the pinch collar ... physical corrections are just not necessary under any circumstances by a knowledgable trainer. I don't care what you say ... I you play the proper leadership role and the dog doesn't do what you say, its ONLY because he doesn't understand what you are asking. If you are a proper leader, he will ALWAYS be eager to fulfill your every wish. The key is motivation.



> It is never fair to correct a dog who doesn't understand what you are asking. I don't think any good trainer would ever suggest doing that.


It's never fair to physically correct a dog ever for any reason. Any knowledgable trainer knows how to elicit the propler behavior from a dog in any situation. When my dogs are confused and don't what what is expected of them, they stop and look at me and I know I have not properly conveyed the message concerning what they should be doing. As soon as I tell them in a different manner, they are ok. I have never physically corrected physically Thor who has lived with me for 6 years now. I have never physically corrected Abby in 7 or 8 years once I learned how to really train. 



> New behaviors and actions are always introduced positively and successfully carrying out actions and behaviors are always reinforced with the greatest party, treat, woo hoo! possible.


Why stop when the behaviors are no longer new?



> The tail wagging, looking at me right in the eye, showing off her poodle prance, etc. does NOT happen when I am only using treats and a clicker. She does not become "loaded" from purely positive training.


This is so obvious I don't know why you don't see it. She is acting like that because she has learned the physical punishment is not as severe when she acts that way.



> I'll say it again. A prong collar really is not harmful if used properly.


It's not positive and certainly not something the dog enjoys.



> If you use it right it only delivers a slight pinch. Have you ever put one on? Tried it to see how it feels? It's really not that bad.


What I suggest you do it put a prong collar around your neck, have some one stand behind you and wait until you are not expecting it then jerk hard enough to make you take a few steps backward. Tell me that doesn't hurt. If there was no pain involved, a prong collar would be no more effective than a flat leather collar. It's the pain that makes it work. Think about it.



> If I am harming her so badly, why does she not run away at the sight of a prong collar? When I was still using the prong collar and I would take it out of the drawer, she would get excited and walk up to me, stretching out her head so I can put it on. Wouldn't you expect a bit more of a negative response if I were harming my dog?


No ... again, she is minimizing the severity of the punishment she knows will come shortly.



> Some people believe in purely positive and some people believe in a more comprehensive approach, including both positive praise and corrections.


Using pain to control your dog is not comprehensive. Controling your dog without using pain is what is comprehensive. It teakes a little more effort and it takes a lot more understanding of canine psychology but its far more effective and sound.


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## luvMyBRT

I know that "IF" I were to use a prong collar on Duncan it would not be affective. First off Duncan has a lot of hair and he weighs near 100 pounds. He is very strong and I'm not even sure I would physically be able to deliver a "proper" correction that would get Duncan's attention. I much, much prefer to use positive reinforcement methods. It is much easier on me to use the tree method (or another positive method) when he pulls then trying to give him a harsh correction, plus it's much more affective for Duncan. 

With a dog as big as Duncan harsh corrections are out of the question as far as I'm concerned. With a dog as old as Lucky, harsh corrections are out of the question. With a puppy as young as our new pup will be, harsh corrections are out of the question. Positive reinforcement methods are much more affective, imo and I find that when I use them I am a much more happy and positive leader when I work with my dogs. When we are training I feel that Duncan is working out of respect and because he wants to please me and it's fun...not because he is worried about a hard pull on a prong collar.

Just my 2 cents! :tongue:


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## monkeys23

BrownieM said:


> Your argument would be true if I was correcting my dog before making sure she understood what was asked of her. It is quite the contrary. I do not use corrections until I am confident my dog knows what I am asking. Then, the corrections are used because she has a tendency to decide she doesn't always want to do what I say. That is the key to using corrections properly. It is never fair to correct a dog who doesn't understand what you are asking. I don't think any good trainer would ever suggest doing that. New behaviors and actions are always introduced positively and successfully carrying out actions and behaviors are always reinforced with the greatest party, treat, woo hoo! possible.
> 
> Also, I am not missing any body language clues between her excitement level and eagerness when I am training with a clicker and treats vs. a prong collar. I wish you could see the difference in this girl when you only reinforce with treats/clicker OR when you do both praising with treats and correcting with prong collar. The tail wagging, looking at me right in the eye, showing off her poodle prance, etc. does NOT happen when I am only using treats and a clicker. She does not become "loaded" from purely positive training.
> 
> I'll say it again. A prong collar really is not harmful if used properly. If you use it right it only delivers a slight pinch. Have you ever put one on? Tried it to see how it feels? It's really not that bad. If I am harming her so badly, why does she not run away at the sight of a prong collar? When I was still using the prong collar and I would take it out of the drawer, she would get excited and walk up to me, stretching out her head so I can put it on. Wouldn't you expect a bit more of a negative response if I were harming my dog? I guarantee it is far more bothersome for her to sit for an hour or two while I brush her long coat, bathe her and then use the dryer to straighten her coat.
> 
> Anyway, I don't have the energy to argue about this anymore. It has been beaten to death on this forum. Some people believe in purely positive and some people believe in a more comprehensive approach, including both positive praise and corrections. I honestly respect someone's decision to use purely positive methods and I think it is an effective tool. I also think that using a prong collar properly is an effective tool and it does not deserve nearly the horrible reputation that it has among the purely positive training method believers.


I agree with you 110% BrownieM. All my dogs get so freaking excited if the jingles come out. Oh and guess what, they all can heel without it too. And funny how comfortable screwball Scout is with the prong collar being used as a proper communication device, she gets all kinds of excited about it.
If its used right, its awesome. Not fond of morons who have it fitted incorrectly though, like that assistance dog video on the first page.... Good way to hurt the dog or have the collar pop off at an inopportune time...


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## MollyWoppy

Well, I have to admit I use a prong collar too, sometimes. But, my reason is a bit different and if anyone has any suggestions on how to manage it I'd be very, very willing to listen.
My husband is very unsteady on his feet. He's not old, he has health problems. Now and then, every 3 weeks or so, he likes to walk (hobble) with our dog, 40lb cattle dog x. Thats when I put the prong on her. There's just no way I can take the risk that he will fall. If he hits his head, its curtains for him. We are really dealing with a persons life here. So, rightly or wrongly, as his caregiver, I have to ensure that there is absoltuely no way he can be taken by surprise with her suddenly taking it into her head to lunge after a squirrel. 
I know its not the right way, but put in perspective, its the way I have to handle it right now.


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## BrownieM

RawFedDogs said:


> Baloney ... there is no PROPER way to use corrections period. Forget the pinch collar ... physical corrections are just not necessary under any circumstances by a knowledgable trainer. I don't care what you say ... I you play the proper leadership role and the dog doesn't do what you say, its ONLY because he doesn't understand what you are asking. If you are a proper leader, he will ALWAYS be eager to fulfill your every wish. The key is motivation.
> 
> 
> 
> It's never fair to physically correct a dog ever for any reason. Any knowledgable trainer knows how to elicit the propler behavior from a dog in any situation. When my dogs are confused and don't what what is expected of them, they stop and look at me and I know I have not properly conveyed the message concerning what they should be doing. As soon as I tell them in a different manner, they are ok. I have never physically corrected physically Thor who has lived with me for 6 years now. I have never physically corrected Abby in 7 or 8 years once I learned how to really train.
> 
> 
> 
> Why stop when the behaviors are no longer new?
> 
> 
> 
> This is so obvious I don't know why you don't see it. She is acting like that because she has learned the physical punishment is not as severe when she acts that way.
> 
> 
> 
> It's not positive and certainly not something the dog enjoys.
> 
> 
> 
> What I suggest you do it put a prong collar around your neck, have some one stand behind you and wait until you are not expecting it then jerk hard enough to make you take a few steps backward. Tell me that doesn't hurt. If there was no pain involved, a prong collar would be no more effective than a flat leather collar. It's the pain that makes it work. Think about it.
> 
> 
> 
> No ... again, she is minimizing the severity of the punishment she knows will come shortly.
> 
> 
> 
> Using pain to control your dog is not comprehensive. Controling your dog without using pain is what is comprehensive. It teakes a little more effort and it takes a lot more understanding of canine psychology but its far more effective and sound.


I don't even have time to respond to everything you posted nor do I care to. But, I do have a question. Why do you tell me to put my prong collar on and then have someone pull it so it lifts my feet off the ground? If a dog is being lifted off the ground from a prong collar correction their human is doing something *seriously* wrong. My dog's neck doesn't so much as lift when she gets a correction. 

As far as the collar not being something she enjoys? Well, that's fabulous. I really could care less if she enjoys the prong collar. As long as I am not causing harm to her, that is all that matters. She surely does not enjoy having her feet face and tail shaved every seven days either.

Why do y'all have such a problem with prong collars? That's great that you don't use them but I have trouble taking a person seriously who claims a slight pinch on the neck is harming my dog. Let's be rational here! 

I'm not going to bother responding anymore because this topic has been discussed so many times on this forum and I know there is no chance of you even agreeing to disagree with me. Gotta say, RFD, you can be quite a closed minded individual in regards to all things dog. Are you this closed minded in other aspects of life? If so, I feel bad for anyone who lives with you...:scared:


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## Tobi

BrownieM said:


> I don't even have time to respond to everything you posted nor do I care to. But, I do have a question. Why do you tell me to put my prong collar on and then have someone pull it so it lifts my feet off the ground? If a dog is being lifted off the ground from a prong collar correction their human is doing something *seriously* wrong. My dog's neck doesn't so much as lift when she gets a correction.
> 
> As far as the collar not being something she enjoys? Well, that's fabulous. I really could care less if she enjoys the prong collar. As long as I am not causing harm to her, that is all that matters. She surely does not enjoy having her feet face and tail shaved every seven days either.
> 
> Why do y'all have such a problem with prong collars? That's great that you don't use them but I have trouble taking a person seriously who claims a slight pinch on the neck is harming my dog. Let's be rational here!
> 
> I'm not going to bother responding anymore because this topic has been discussed so many times on this forum and I know there is no chance of you even agreeing to disagree with me. Gotta say, RFD, you can be quite a closed minded individual in regards to all things dog. Are you this closed minded in other aspects of life? If so, I feel bad for anyone who lives with you...:scared:


Most dog owners have a problem with them because they are A.Barbaric IMO, and B.Most owners do NOT know how to properly use them, and end up harming their dog psychologically or physically.
Tobi is doing great with a flat collar and no discipline only positive reinforcement for training and he knows without a shadow of a doubt who is in charge without using an apparatus that can be potentially dangerous and painful to him.


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## BrownieM

Great..that's what a I get for asking a question in my last post. I get a response that I can't help but respond to :doh:

So the problem is the owner, in that situation, not the tool...

And, BTW, I just went *again* and put on our prong collar. Jerked it pretty quickly and with more pressure than I have ever "jerked" my dog. It did not even pinch me - it just applied pressure. That was on my bare skin. I can only imagine it is even less painful on a dog with _8 inches_ of neck hair...

Barbaric? Those are the claims that turn people off. Sure, it's not purely positive! Sure, my dog wouldn't choose to have pressure applied to her neck. But, there's a lot of things she would choose not to do that I make her do. (Get in the car, sit on the grooming table, stay in her crate when company is visiting, etc.) 

Yes, the dog probably doesn't enjoy having pressure around it's neck. But it's hardly going to actually hurt unless you are using it improperly and yanking or jerking with it.


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## Tobi

BrownieM said:


> So the problem is the owner, in that situation, not the tool...


No the tool is barbaric as i stated above, especially with short haired breeds, would you use one on a toddler you wanted to keep under control?



BrownieM said:


> and, BTW, I just went again and put on our prong collar. Jerked it pretty quickly and with more pressure than I have ever "jerked" my dog. It did not even pinch me - it just applied pressure. That was on my bare skin. I can only imagine it is even less painful on a dog with 8 inches of neck hair...
> 
> Barbaric? Those are the claims that turn people off. Sure, it's not purely positive! Sure, my dog wouldn't choose to have pressure applied to her neck. But, there's a lot of things she would choose not to do that I make her do. (Get in the car, sit on the grooming table, stay in her crate when company is visiting, etc.)
> 
> Yes, the dog probably doesn't enjoy having pressure around it's neck. But it's hardly going to actually hurt unless you are using it improperly and yanking or jerking with it.


So you were expecting the quick jerk or did you walk around with it and have somebody unexpectedly yank on it? because i'm quite sure there would be a difference in the two.

So why can't you use a positive type of reinforcement instead of something that is uncomfortable for your animal? i could use all kinds of harmful methods on my animal because he is out of control sometimes, but that is the challenge and fun in owning such a high strung dog because when he sits and stays when there is a dog in front of him or new people introduced to him and all i used was a tiny fingernail piece of food instead of fear it makes me very proud as an owner.

Again, i will say, probably 90% of the ********, and retards that go into a pet superstore and purchase a prong or choke for their animal are untrained in the device and probably "think" they know what they are doing.


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## BrownieM

I've never had a short haired breed and never will (allergies) so I have never seen how they would react to it...Maybe I would, maybe I wouldn't. It all depends on how the dog responds. If a dog is shutting down, then no, I'm not going to use it. 

Let's not compare toddlers to dogs. Dogs are not humans and the humanizing of dogs is a dangerous thing...


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## RawFedDogs

BrownieM said:


> I don't even have time to respond to everything you posted nor do I care to. But, I do have a question. Why do you tell me to put my prong collar on and then have someone pull it so it lifts my feet off the ground?


Thats not what I said. Go back and re-read it.



> As far as the collar not being something she enjoys? Well, that's fabulous. I really could care less if she enjoys the prong collar. As long as I am not causing harm to her, that is all that matters. She surely does not enjoy having her feet face and tail shaved every seven days either.


Well good. I DO care what my dogs enjoy. If she doesn't, then don't do it.



> Why do y'all have such a problem with prong collars? That's great that you don't use them but I have trouble taking a person seriously who claims a slight pinch on the neck is harming my dog. Let's be rational here!


It's not HARMING your dog. It certainly is harming your relationship with your dog and it's causing your dog pain. It may not cause pain everytime you use it but if he hasn't been caused pain in the past, the prong collar would be no more effective than a flat collar.



> Gotta say, RFD, you can be quite a closed minded individual in regards to all things dog. Are you this closed minded in other aspects of life? If so, I feel bad for anyone who lives with you...:scared:


I am very closed minded when people cause pain or discomfort to the dogs who would die for them if asked to. Hehe, no one lives with me. You can get the same results without causing pain. You will probably have to get more training and study a little more but it will be more than worth your dog. Abby loved it when I went to 100% positive training.

BTW: I have used a prong collar and choke chain in the past and I was well versed in using them. I taught people how to use both. I was a professional trainer for 15 years.


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## CavePaws

> Well, I have to admit I use a prong collar too, sometimes. But, my reason is a bit different and if anyone has any suggestions on how to manage it I'd be very, very willing to listen.
> My husband is very unsteady on his feet. He's not old, he has health problems. Now and then, every 3 weeks or so, he likes to walk (hobble) with our dog, 40lb cattle dog x. Thats when I put the prong on her. There's just no way I can take the risk that he will fall. If he hits his head, its curtains for him. We are really dealing with a persons life here. So, rightly or wrongly, as his caregiver, I have to ensure that there is absoltuely no way he can be taken by surprise with her suddenly taking it into her head to lunge after a squirrel.
> I know its not the right way, but put in perspective, its the way I have to handle it right now.


MollyWoppy, have you tried these tools? I think they would be able to replace the prong collar and work just as well for reassurance for your husband if he knows how to use them correctly.

Premier Pet
Easy Walk Harness Product Description - Premier Pet

IMO, the gentle leader is going to be just as much reassurance to him than a prong collar might be or an easy walker which was the second one I listed. The gentle leader is the one that goes over your dogs muzzle, it gives you exceptional control over your dogs head. IF your dog were to try to jut forward they would be brought down and to the side towards you because of all of that forward motion and the way the gentle leader is hooked up. I would suggest doing distraction training, slowly moving from place to place to generalize it and while in each new setting start from square one with the least distracting thing possible and moving up to the most distracting thing possible. I would like to see you getting 100% success with the most distracting thing possible before we put the leash in your husbands hands. With him, slowly work up to the highest level of distraction, but do all this in even smaller steps than you did to work up to that level with yourself.

Another exercise you can do is "posting" to work on how she reacts to high distraction levels where she -really- wants to get to whatever it is she can't reach. What you do is find something like a tree, post, or furniture which can hold her in place, give her about a body lengths worth of leash to work on so she isn't twisting herself up and start the distracting. She will realize she is getting nowhere and nothing whenever she is pulling soon enough. Whenever you see her stop pulling give her a treat between her paws or from your hand, praise, and love on her. This might be a good prelude for your husband to work on control with her. Don't make her stay while posting, as you are trying to give her the option to pull or not to pull towards that distraction during posting - you want her to make the choice knowingly, and learn the outcomes for both.

I hope this works. If the prong collar is what gives you the most reassurance that your husbands life is safe then use it. When someone's _life is in danger_ I think some things are a little more acceptable than they are if you're just using them for whatever/whenever.


BrownieM - I couldn't disagree more with what you are saying as far as it not being harmful. Using it to train or even using it regularly for corrections is harmful in many aspects to your dogs psyche whether you'd like to admit it or not.


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## BrownieM

CavePaws said:


> BrownieM - I couldn't disagree more with what you are saying as far as it not being harmful. Using it to train or even using it regularly for corrections is harmful in many aspects to your dogs psyche whether you'd like to admit it or not.


CavePaws, I know you disagree with me. You've made that tremendously clear. 

Would you like to come analyze my dog's psyche? I guarantee her psyche is grander than yours.

Telling me my dog's psyche has been damaged is just about the last way to get me to take you seriously or have any respect for what you have to say. I think you need to rethink your approach and the way you speak to people if you wish to be listened to. Not to mention, I have a hard time taking someone's advice whose mind is closed.


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## Tobi

CavePaws said:


> MollyWoppy, have you tried these tools? I think they would be able to replace the prong collar and work just as well for reassurance for your husband if he knows how to use them correctly.
> 
> Premier Pet
> Easy Walk Harness Product Description - Premier Pet


 In addition to the 2 that Cavepaws listed there is this one www.sporn.com - Sporn Halter its a little easier on the pups armpits imo vs the easy walk on my last pup that was quite the stubborn puller.


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## BrownieM

Tobi said:


> No the tool is barbaric as i stated above, especially with short haired breeds, would you use one on a toddler you wanted to keep under control?
> 
> 
> 
> So you were expecting the quick jerk or did you walk around with it and have somebody unexpectedly yank on it? because i'm quite sure there would be a difference in the two.
> 
> So why can't you use a positive type of reinforcement instead of something that is uncomfortable for your animal? i could use all kinds of harmful methods on my animal because he is out of control sometimes, but that is the challenge and fun in owning such a high strung dog because when he sits and stays when there is a dog in front of him or new people introduced to him and all i used was a tiny fingernail piece of food instead of fear it makes me very proud as an owner.
> 
> Again, i will say, probably 90% of the ********, and retards that go into a pet superstore and purchase a prong or choke for their animal are untrained in the device and probably "think" they know what they are doing.


Just saw that you went back and added to this. :smile: Are you calling me a ******* or retard (which, as someone who spends time teaching children some of which do have mental retardation, I find a bit offensive and uncalled for)? I sure hope not! Anyway, my point is that I yanked it on my bare neck harder than I have ever yanked on her neck that is covered with 8 inches of hair. It simply didn't hurt! Pressure, yes. If it occured unexpectedly I might think, "hey! what the heck is that?? " But I surely wouldn't be damanged. Or in pain. 

I use treats as well and positive reinforcement. I use more positive reinforcement than anything else. I don't even use the dang prong collar that I am wasting all of my time sticking up for on her anymore because she is trained and reliable. I don't need a prong collar for agility, for tracking or for anything else I may decide to do.

My point this whole time is just that we need to be open minded to everyone's different training methods. Using a prong collar does not always result in harm.


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## Tobi

BrownieM said:


> Just saw that you went back and added to this. :smile: Are you calling me a ******* or retard (which, as someone who spends time teaching children some of which do have mental retardation, I find a bit offensive and uncalled for)? I sure hope not! Anyway, my point is that I yanked it on my bare neck harder than I have ever yanked on her neck that is covered with 8 inches of hair. It simply didn't hurt! Pressure, yes. If it occured unexpectedly I might think, "hey! what the heck is that?? " But I surely wouldn't be damanged. Or in pain.
> 
> I use treats as well and positive reinforcement. I use more positive reinforcement than anything else. I don't even use a dang prong collar on her anymore because she is trained. My point this whole time is just that we need to be open minded to everyone's different training methods. Using a prong collar does not always result in harm.


No i simply said that 90% of the ********/retards that go into the pet stores and purchase these for their "powerbreeds" (you know the type thugs toting pitbulls, that are completely untrained)do not know how to properly utilize this tool. having said that, the methods that you use may work for you and your dog, and we would simply have to agree to disagree on this subject. I mean no disrespect and no harm in what i say to anybody on this board.


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## WonderPup

BrownieM it IS possible to cause leash aggression issues with a prong collar, but it is pretty specific to the individual dog. 

I am curious as to why, and forgive me if you're already explained and I missed it already, you would choose not to use something like the easy walk or the gentle leader? All three tools have their advantages and disadvantages and you have to know your dog of course. I think the main issue I have here is that a prong collar, is a TOOL and if you're using it every day to keep your dog polite on a leash that is the definition of incorrect use. In that case it is no longer a training tool. Any tool you use for training can be eliminated once the behavior you are trying to teach is learned. What is being taught here and when will you be finished? 

Just to be clear on my position I do not believe you are harming your dog. I do not allow prong collars, or choke chains in my group classes. I don't allow the chains at all, period. However, with clients I am working with privately I have used a prong collar for a limited amount of time depending on the situation. I think everything has it's place. I've used it for fine tuning on heel work, to stop a show dog from crabbing while she moved, and to help dog's that otherwise are not fits for head collars for whatever reason or another (I am not a huge fan of the easy walk though I have tons of people who use it come through training with me) Like I mentioned before though it is a training tool and is used as such. Training collars are not meant to be used forever. Do I still use a gentle leader (a TRAINING TOOL) on my poodles? If I'm out with the baby YOU BET I DO. If I were subing a prong collar for that leader would I still use it out with the baby - yes, However, If I'm not with Nicholas by myself I don't see the need for the extra insurance. My dog's are well enough trained to now be walked on their regular collars in most cases. Jazz has a squirrel fetish and Saleen is one to think about chasing a neighborhood cat, with a stroller and just me and now an extra large dog that needs a walk that could be a bad deal and I don't want to take the chance on this being the one time they don't listen. 

Anyway, I am just trying to understand the reasoning behind continuing use if you don't mind. Or if you're prefer to share privately that would be fine to since I can understand how this thread might be annoying  Hopefully you know me well enough to know I leave the drama to others


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## CavePaws

BrownieM - I haven't been rude to you in the slightest. You're taking offense because of my opinion, I haven't taken offense to yours, and you've just as strongly disagreed with me as I have with you. Don't take me seriously if you feel I'm not being dead serious or you can't take me seriously for whatever personal reason of yours that it is. I am debating the use of a tool right now, not the care of your dog, I understand you love your dog, if you didn't love them why else would you keep them or take the time you do to train them? I'm most definitely close minded about certain training methods as they go against my CORE BELIEFS. I believe to the depths of my soul what I am saying, if you can't take me seriously then don't waste your time reading what I have to say.

And to MollyWoppy, I meant to edit my last post to add this in but since I'm typing this out I can just state here: 
I have used the Gentle Leader with great success. I have a fear aggressive dog, Indi, who if in a situation where she or another dog could possibly do harm to each other, I use the gentle leader. I take her everywhere with me, to trials that are extremely crowded where people don't always watch their dog for whatever odd reason, and for the longest time I kept the gentle leader on her for reassurance. If she were to pull or lunge forward she is stopped immediately where she is trying to start the lunge (at the head). I don't take the safety of my dog or other people's animals lightly so I did feel it was acceptable to use a Gentle Leader for a short period when I was getting her used to walking through crowded lanes and standing close in line to other dogs. She does not need the gentle leader now but if I knew we were in a situation I were uncomfortable with, I would not hesitate to place it on her.


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## BrownieM

WonderPup - I don't continually use a prong collar, I think you missed the part where I said that amidst all of the posts here. I only use it as a training tool to be discontinued. That was my original post in all of this shenanigans! :wink:

Re: Gentle leader - My mom uses a prong with Henry (he's hers) but she doesn't train him. It is just a permanent tool for him to walk nicely. Except, it doesn't work because she doesn't actively train him and half the time he pulls anyway. She's an example of someone that really shouldn't be using a prong collar. Whenever *I* walk Henry, I use a gentle leader for management. It would be nice if he was actually trained but he's not mine and I just don't have the time to train her dog right now. I won't use a prong with him because he is so determined he actually would injure himself with the prong collar.

Millie was trained almost everything using clicker training. Then we switched trainers and we used a prong collar for heeling and for proofing stays. I no longer use a prong collar now that I used it for what I needed. She is pretty reliable as a loose leash walker (unless there is a squirrel. Apparently her prey drive came out of hiding. I almost got dragged up five trees this morning!) and I do not walk her with a prong collar. She heels with enthusiasm as well. I'm starting agility soon and want to do tracking and I don't see a need for a prong collar there. I am just trying to point out that open mindedness is important because there is as time and a place for a prong collar. It's not black and white.

Who knows, the next puppy I get may be completely clicker trained. Every dog is different and I am open to trying different methods. I just don't believe it is fair to say that a prong collar is a barbaric device that destroys the psyche of my dog.


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## CavePaws

How/why did you use the prong collar to proof a stay?


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## BrownieM

CavePaws said:


> How/why did you use the prong collar to proof a stay?


If she moved she got a correction.


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## BrownieM

BrownieM said:


> I used a prong collar to train Millie to heal. I did not use the prong to teach her loose leash walking, though. Also, I no longer need to use the prong because it was effective, she learned, and she transferred what I taught her to everyday situations. A prong collar is a useful tool, is not harmful if used properly, and can be successfully stopped without the dog reverting to pulling.


Wonder - This is my first post in this thread. I thought I would say this and that would be that. Instead the wolves have come a runnin'. 

I agree. If a prong collar has to be continually used it is not being used properly. That is why a prong is IMO not appropriate for Henry. But it was appropriate for Millie because it worked and it is no longer used.


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## RawFedDogs

You don't need a physical correction to proof stays. Just say "eh eh" and put him back in the original position. After a few times of that, the "eh eh" is all thats needed. If I am in a save enclosed area when proofing stays, I don't even use a leash. Out in a busy public area I have a leash on the dog for safety but it never gets tight.

You are going to be amazed when you get a new puppy and start him off from day one with clicker or any form of positive training. By the time he is a year old and he has never had a physical correction in his life, you won't believe the relationship you can have with him. 

Thats the way my 6yo Thor is. That dog will do anything for me. He is so easy to teach new things to. All I have to do is come up with a way to get across to him what I want him to do and he'll do it. He is not stubborn. When he hesitates, you can tell by the look on his face that he's thinking real hard trying to figure out what I want. Whenever he is confused when we are out in the world, he will always stop and look at me for direction. He trusts me completely not to let anything bad happen to him.

Thats why I'm so insistant about positive training. I know what it can do. I know how a dog is when he never has to worry about a physical correction. It is completely different than any other dog/human relationship I have seen. I have seen this with other species also, not just dogs.


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## BrownieM

RFD, Millie does the same thing. It is amazing. We didn't have this connection until we started training either. She makes eye contact with me and waits for my direction whenever she is unsure or confused.


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## luvMyBRT

Duncan was taught to "loose leash walk" (heel) without a leash. 

He was first taught where exactly the "heel" position was by just sitting. Anytime he was in the correct heel position the result would be click/treat. If he wasn't in the correct position I would say "whoopsie" and then set him up again to find the proper heel position. "Whoopsie" was to mark that this was not the correct spot (notice no jerk or correction) and the click/treat was to reward when he was in the correct spot. You'd be surprised how fast that dog learned where the "treat zone" was and then made every attempt to stay in that zone.

Then I started to walk and all Duncan wanted to do was to stay in that "treat zone". So right off the bat he is heeling at my side, looking up at me to reinforce that he is in the correct position while walking. I click/treat so he knows he is doing what he is supposed to.....and this is all without a leash.

When we are out and about the leash is just a safety precaution (Duncan is only 10 months old and still a puppy). Duncan doesn't even really notice it. All he's ever walked in is his everyday flat collar or a martingale collar.


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## BrownieM

Millie walks without a leash often too, unless we are walking right alongside a busy street. My favorite trick is to have her off leash and try and "trick" her during heeling by running really fast, stopping, running again, etc. and she has to stay right at my side. She loves that game!


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## WonderPup

I'm sorry Brownie, I completely missed that. 

-proofing stays using a prong is actually an incorrect use of the tool so I would kind of wonder about the trainer you went to. A prong is supposed to be a tool that self corrects. The handler is NEVER meant to issue a collar correction with it. That is how a choke collar is used, not a prong collar, so the trainer gave you some less than accurate advice on the correct usage. Then again a lot of trainer don't understand how to use a choker either. I've used those too, but a long time ago, I don't use them for training anymore. I take one or two of my show dogs in the ring with then but it isn't for control, it's because it's pretty. Sad maybe but true. You CAN use a prong collar to proof/teach a stay but you'd have to stand close enough to the dog to keep the leash kind of tight to the floor(usually accomplished by standing on the leash) so that if they break they correct themselves. I teach stay and leave it at the same time, and it works really well thus far. I'd have to video it to explain it though, it isn't something I'd do justice to trying to type it out. 

What you've mentioned about your mom is something I see all the time.  People sometimes get really attached to a tool. *shrugs* trouble is with a collar like that the dog usually learns to ignore it at some point. Jazz needs some additional work now b/c she sometimes pulls through her leader. This would be because my husband allows that and since he's been doing most of the walking the past year I now have one more thing to clean up as far as the dog's behavior now that I am back so to speak. The last 18 months I have really been a whole different person and one day I just sort of woke up  *shrugs*


LuvMyBRT- I am a HUGE fan of teaching walking politely off lead the way you did. Or I use a light weight leash and clip it to my belt so I have that little safety net just in case an I still work "hands free" I've done all of my younger's poodle's training this way. She is certainly the best at walking on a leash and is the only one not needed a refresher course so to speak on leash manners right now.


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## BrownieM

Interesting, Wishpoo. I have had several trainers that have used prong collar corrections for proofing a stay. 

I will give an example. I would ask her to sit. Sit means sit until I say release. "Stay" is not a necessary command for us. So, if she broke her sit I would give her a quick, slight correction while saying, "No! Sit." Eventually, the word "No" was loaded heavily and the prong collar correction was not needed. Same with down. Or climb. I stopped using the prong collar because "No!" itself is now enough of a correction. Then, as I continued working on longer sit stays/down stays I would go somewhere and hide but still be able see her. If I saw her break, I would correct her verbally, ideally within the 1/2 second time frame. 

This helped with many issues we were having in the house. Prior to loading the word "No" she was not phased enough by my disappointment and by my saying "no!". As soon as the word was loaded, she began to immediately back off whatever she is doing when I say "no". It is very important for the safety of my dog that she responds immediately to the word "no". If this needed to be achieved through a physical correction, so be it. If this will make her stop in her tracks from running across a busy street, I firmly believe the trade off of having used a prong collar to teach my dog is worth its weight.

Also, Wishpoo, I taught loose leash walking the way you described. I had Milie's leash tethered to my pants and I had the clicker in one hand and treats in the other. She was clicked and treated for maintaining eye contact and walking nicely.


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## DaneMama

Leash free training is the best way to go. If you cannot hold your dog's attention without a leash (no matter the context) you need to take a step back in training. In an ideal dog bond with their human, the dog should be able to walk through a busy street while keeping right by their owners side without a leash. Their human should be the most interesting thing to them and the work they do should be totally worth it to them! If you don't make it worth the dog's while, of course they aren't going to pay attention if you dont.


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## BrownieM

DaneMama, that is true. Although I am not going to count on my being the most interesting thing in my dog's world at all times. It simply isn't practical. You cannot remove the instincts from an animal. I want my dog to stay by my side because he or she MUST stay by my side. That is totally fabulous if they want to stay by my side, but even if they don't, they must. 

Depending on what I am training, there may be a physical consequence for the dog not obeying my command. However, the physical correction from a prong collar and the absolute reliability is nothing compared to what could happen to my dog if he or she is hit by a car.


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## DaneMama

I don't think you'd be trying to change the dog's instincts by being the one thing they pay absolute attention to. Dogs are bred to be companions and it's in their nature to look up to their owner as their benevolent leader.


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## BrownieM

DaneMama said:


> I don't think you'd be trying to change the dog's instincts by being the one thing they pay absolute attention to. Dogs are bred to be companions and it's in their nature to look up to their owner as their benevolent leader.


Dogs are also bred to be retreivers. And gun dogs. And hounds. So you are telling me that a retreiver who has an outstanding prey drive would rather be with his companion when he sees a lovely, bouncy, rabbit? I don't think so. Not always. You simply cannot count on your dog always "wanting" to be with you. It is not in their nature. I believe dogs are bred to work just as much as to be a companion.


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## WonderPup

Well I had a really great response typed out and bummer the computer ate it. :/

My mains points though were

that the prong collar was misused in the example you stated in your reply. If giving a collar correction was the goal you should have had a different collar. Did Millie die? NO. Was she in any danger from you? No. Did it help? In part since you were using two different methods (old school and marker training together). Was it done correctly with the correct tool ? No, absolutely not. 

Trainers that don't understand the proper use of the tools they have on hand should not be dosing out training advice to others. From one of your other posts this seems to be what happened. It's not an uncommon thing, anyone can call themselves a trainer and get people to pay them $$$ for their advice. Not to say that the people you worked with were awful, they just weren't as well educated as they could have been.

I don't believe any dog on the planet has ever responded to their owner's disappointment and feel like many people expect this when they embark on a marker training journey where they are told to ignore bad behaviors and reinforce new ones. This would be a big reason I think that so many people fail and resort to the older methods. It's like working with an incomplete idea. 

I do believe correction to be a useful tool in training however there is never ever a reason to use it in the actual learning phase for any behavior. It is useful in the proofing stage which only comes after the dog has reliably learned a behavior, temporarily forgotten it, and relearned. 

And I could be wrong here but I am fairly certain that Wishpoo and I have VERY VERY different ideas on how dog's should be handled or managed. I cannot recall off the top of my head any discussion on training that we have ever agreed in any way shape or form on. I do however remember several attacks on my opinion.  trouble with those is I have the education to back up my opinion.... *shrugs* for all that is worth  Since opinions are like butt holes and everyone (god willing) has one.

Anyway with all that said I depart. I have broken one of my own personal rules in EVER replying to this thread in the first place. I usually never talk training on forums for some very good reasons. So I will now abide by my own rule and go on about my day  Thankyou for the stimulating conversation. Future conversation from me though won't be forthcoming unless it is picked up privately elsewhere for fun.


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## RawFedDogs

BrownieM said:


> Interesting, Wishpoo. I have had several trainers that have used prong collar corrections for proofing a stay.


There are trainers and there are excellent trainers. An excellent trainer has the knowledge to train a dog without the use of a prong collar. Period. Thats it. Believe me, in my day, I have seen some very poor trainers. Heck, at one time I WAS a poor trainer but I continued to study, attend seminars, and learn. I tell people that are looking for a trainer, if the trainer they are interviewing mentions corrections, prong collars, or choke chains, tell them no thanks. 



> I will give an example. I would ask her to sit. Sit means sit until I say release. "Stay" is not a necessary command for us. So, if she broke her sit I would give her a quick, slight correction while saying, "No! Sit."


I teach "sit" and "down" the same way. I don't need corrections nor a harsh voice. Just an "eh eh" in a normal tone of voice. You can control all that with the timing of the clicker.



> Eventually, the word "No" was loaded heavily and the prong collar correction was not needed. Same with down. Or climb. I stopped using the prong collar because "No!" itself is now enough of a correction.


This is the first time I've even hear of "loading" the word "NO". That by itself sounds like a harsh process. I think by using the methods, it shows you don't have confidence you can control your dog without the crutch of intimidation. It's not difficult once you learn how, to teach a dog to listen to you and give you his full attention. Thats the first thing you should teach before sit, down, stay, etc. You don't teach those things until you can get and hold his attention.



> This helped with many issues we were having in the house. Prior to loading the word "No" she was not phased enough by my disappointment and by my saying "no!". As soon as the word was loaded, she began to immediately back off whatever she is doing when I say "no". It is very important for the safety of my dog that she responds immediately to the word "no". If this needed to be achieved through a physical correction, so be it. If this will make her stop in her tracks from running across a busy street, I firmly believe the trade off of having used a prong collar to teach my dog is worth its weight.


Here's the difference we have. It's not a difference in the dog or the methods used so much as it difference in trainer's attitude. You are trying to "force" the dog to perform behaviors by intimidation, either through voice or physical correction. My method says you become the dog's leader, teacher, mentor, and guide through life and he will badly want to please you and perform behaviors without being intimidated. He will know and understand that you are teaching him and he will be better off learning the lessons you are giving. It's not a matter of how bad he feels when you yell, "NO" at him, its a matter of how much he wants to please you and learn from you. See the difference in trainer's attitude? Yes, your methods work. That's obvious. My methods work just as fast with more solid results and you are building relationship instead of hurting it. You are building trust instead of fear. 



> Also, Wishpoo, I taught loose leash walking the way you described. I had Milie's leash tethered to my pants and I had the clicker in one hand and treats in the other. She was clicked and treated for maintaining eye contact and walking nicely.


Hehe ... See? You are almost there where you need to be. You are getting closer and closer. BTW: I may be misunderstanding what you are saying, but I never ask for 100% eye contact or eye contact at all unless I say their name when loose leash walking. If you are teaching competition heeling, of course you need 100% eye contact but loose leash walking? Heck no. Let the dog enjoy the walk until you have a need to call his name to get attention. If I am walking a dog through a low traffic subdivision, I don't care if the dog is 5 feet from me ... he doesn't have to be in the competition heel position. When I had my two Goldens and lived in such a subdivision, I taught them to go to the curb and sit when a car approached. When the would get to a corner, they had to wait until I was up with them again and told them it was ok to cross the street. We had leash laws in my county but my dogs just drug the leashes on the ground. The law said they must be on a leash. It didn't say the other end of the leash had to be in my hand. :biggrin:

Anyway, I see you getting close to being a 100% positive trainer. When you get the new puppy, try it. I promise you'll be amazed and you'll think to yourself, "That old man really did know what he was talking about." :biggrin:


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## BrownieM

Wonder, I do remember verifying my trainer's certification, his experience attaining titles in Schutzund and the training school he graduated from. He was from one of the top training centers in St. Louis. I am confident that I was taught an effective way to use a prong collar.


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## WonderPup

having a certification does not make you a good trainer nor does it mean you are well educated. So sorry, he was NOT well educated in the use of a prong collar. While we are on the suject I have yet to meet a trainer involved in his type of trainer who is. Look at the poor police and military working dogs. Those are certified trainers training those dogs as well and 1) they are very poorly trained and 2) what they do to some of them is down right abusive. 

Ok now I promise, last one


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## BrownieM

RFD, I am aware that a dog does not ever "feed bad" or "guilty". That is not what I mean by saying I loaded the word "no". And I did not at any point "yell" either. A firm "no" in a deep, confident spoken voice. When "no" is constantly used simultaneously with a correction it does in fact become loaded.

Training is really not something I am passionate about like you. It's pretty far down on my list of things I enjoy or want to do in life. I train because I want my dog trained. I want my dog to listen to what I say for her safety. I also want her to see me as a leader, which she does, because I let her know when she does something correctly and when she does something incorrectly.

ETA: RFD, I do differentiate between formal heeling and loose leash walking. I expect her to still walk with slack in the 5 foot leash when loose leash walking. And if I say, "Millie, look at me!" She slows down, looks at me and returns to my side. If I say "heel", she does her thing.


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## BrownieM

Gosh. All of this and I was never trying to say that a prong collar is the "best" method. I was simply saying from the very beginning that it is an effective method. Geeez louise! :wink:


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## DaneMama

BrownieM said:


> Dogs are also bred to be retreivers. And gun dogs. And hounds. So you are telling me that a retreiver who has an outstanding prey drive would rather be with his companion when he sees a lovely, bouncy, rabbit? I don't think so. Not always. You simply cannot count on your dog always "wanting" to be with you. It is not in their nature. I believe dogs are bred to work just as much as to be a companion.


Thats completely true. I guess I should have been more clear in that you should be the most interesting thing to your dog when you want to be. When you ask for your dog's attention, they should give it to you, which you should make worth their while because if you ask for their attention when there's a squirrel outside or another dog nearby, etc you better have something that means more to them than any distraction. If I'm out at the open space with my dogs offleash, they need to come when called even when running towards another dog to say hello. I would say that Bailey, Zuri and Akasha are all 95%+ reliable, Freya and Emmy are 80% reliable and Shiloh...well, she's about 50% since she's proven to be harder to train. I only call them once, if they come they get what I call a "jackpot" which is about 20-30 seconds of straight uninterrupted praise/treats. Adding jackpots to recall training really makes it worth the dog's while to come when called!


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## RawFedDogs

WonderPup said:


> I do believe correction to be a useful tool in training however there is never ever a reason to use it in the actual learning phase for any behavior. It is useful in the proofing stage which only comes after the dog has reliably learned a behavior, temporarily forgotten it, and relearned.


If a behavior is reliably learned, it is never forgotten. The dog may loose his motivation from time to time just as we all do but if it was learned, he doesn't forget it. I have had a dog perform a behavior after not doing it for 5 years. I had taught the touch stick to one of my Goldens. Years later, a ball got stuck under the couch and I thought of the touch stick I had seen a few days earlier. I had not used the touch stick in 5 years. All the way to the couch, Zack was jumping up touching the stick with his nose. :biggrin:

Anyway, the dog just has to be motivated. Not by yelling nor by physical corrections but by stopping a few seconds and talking to him, relaxing him and yourself and calmly insisting he perform the behavior. Use a calm voice, not a harsh one. It works everytime. It takes a little longer but you reinforce relationship when you do it this way and you reinforce that you expect the dog to perform as desired when asked.



> anyway with all that said I depart. I have broken one of my own personal rules in EVER replying to this thread in the first place. I usually never talk training on forums for some very good reasons. So I will now abide by my own rule and go on about my day  Thankyou for the stimulating conversation. Future conversation from me though won't be forthcoming unless it is picked up privately elsewhere for fun.


I never shy away from talking training. How are others going to learn? The person you are discussing it with may or may not learn but there will definately be readers who will. There may be readers who have never heard of positive training. There are new dog owners here who know very little or nothing about how to handle a dog.


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## CorgiPaws

Diet, Training, Breeding, and Physically Altering (crop/docking) are three areas that can become very heated on any animal orientated forum. 
Why?
Because we ALL have our opinions on what is right and wrong, what is ethical or not, what is too much or not enough, what is acceptable or unhealthy, etc. 
There are generally "studies" and "trials" that will back up BOTH ends of all of these debates, "proving" each side to be right and the other wrong. DO I have my own opinions on each and every one of these methods? SURE!
Raw good. Kibble Bad. 
Prong Collar Bad. Treats Good. 
"Conformation First" breeders bad. health First Breeders Good. 
Cropping Bad. Docking ok. 

These are the issues that I see go in circles all the time. Here, of course, we are a bunch of foodies. LOL. But on other forums, where canine nutrition is a small part of the overall forum, oh man, can "dog food" threads get heated! Even more heated than around here. 

That being said, don't take it to heart. We all have our own training methods. I tend to stick with positive reinforcement, but have my dogs gotten a pinch on the lip, neck, or butt before? Yeah, they have. Am I about to claim that my dogs are perfect BECAUSE of positive reinforcement? No, I'm not. My dogs each have their strengths and weaknesses. Annie's recall is amazing. BUT, I will probably work on jumping on new people with her until she's too old and sore to jump. Anyone who claims their dogs are perfect all the time with no issues are either lying, or totally blind to it. 


I guess this rambling post was my way of saying: keep it friendly, folks. We all have our methods, our ways, and our beliefs, and we are all here because we love our pets.


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## SerenityFL

RFD, I don't know if this is what Brownie is talking about but how I know "loaded" no to be is that you can't just say, "no" to the dog, the dog has to know what "no" means.

For example, if I am at my kitchen sink looking out the window in to my yard, staring at my bouncy, hyper active Jack Russell terrier and suddenly, he starts chomping away on the garden hose, telling him, "No", doesn't mean squat. He may understand that "no" means something towards him but he doesn't connect it with chomping on the garden hose. You have to let them know WHAT no means, you are loading it so that when you tell them, in the future, "no", they understand what you are telling them to stop doing. I'm not explaining this very well but it's along the lines of teaching them things like, 'no chew' or 'no jump' or 'get off the dang couch already!' (ok, last one was a joke) 

In a way, and again, please do not jump all over this post because I'm not explaining it perfectly, it's like the dog knowing what you mean when you say, "eh eh" when you are trying to get it to stay. (Which, I have done the 'eh eh' thing, I've done it several times and I did not see results in a few tries. I still have problems getting the boy to stay. He is not interested in the slightest bit in staying. He gets downright anxious if he can't be right next to me pretty much at all times. Girl does pretty good but boy? It's not working.) The dog understands that "eh eh" means, "nope, you got up, you're supposed to stay" or to that affect. 

There are several ways to load a "no" and it usually involves a distraction of some sort. I even know one trainer who says throw rolled up socks at the dogs hind end when you say, 'no' to distract it. I use a water bottle, cut in half with change inside. If the hoodlums are doing something I don't want them to do, I say, "No" and if they choose to ignore that, I shake the water bottle with change at the same time I say, "No". That's how I know "loading a no" to be. It gets them to stop the action and they learn those actions I'm not fond of...such as chewing on the cats' scratcher like they were doing when I was typing this. And they were told, "no", I shook the change bottle, they stopped chewing on it, I said, "leave it", they have left it. I'm sure some people won't agree with that either because it's not "positive all the time" but it works for me, so I'm going to keep using it.


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## BrownieM

OT, but I'm going to start a new thread on tracking because this is something I am interested in! :wink:


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## RawFedDogs

SerenityFL said:


> RFD, I don't know if this is what Brownie is talking about but how I know "loaded" no to be is that you can't just say, "no" to the dog, the dog has to know what "no" means.


I knew exactly what "loading NO" meant when I first saw it. I have just never heard the term before. I also know that loading NO is not a positive experience so I will never do it. I have no need to. There are much better ways to indicate to the dog that he's done wrong.



> In a way, and again, please do not jump all over this post because I'm not explaining it perfectly, it's like the dog knowing what you mean when you say, "eh eh" when you are trying to get it to stay. (Which, I have done the 'eh eh' thing, I've done it several times and I did not see results in a few tries. I still have problems getting the boy to stay. He is not interested in the slightest bit in staying.


Anytime you are teaching a dog to do something (I teach, I don't train. Big difference.), if he is having difficulty learning, I lower the criteria. Get your dog to stay for 3 seconds then release him. Praise and reward him for being so smart and so good as to stay 3 seconds for you. It doesn't take the world's greatest trainer to teach a dog to stay for 3 seconds. Once he is reliable at 3 seconds, have him stay for 5 seconds. Same process as before. If he breaks the stay, don't make a big deal out of it. No corrections of any kind. Just bring him back, have him sit and stay again. Corrections either verbal or physical are never used in this lesson. After you get reliable 5 second stays, move to 10 seconds. When 10 is reliable go to 15, then to 30 then to a minute. Then to a minute and a half. Then 2 minutes. At no time are you to step away from the dog while he is staying. You stay in place with him. 

After you can get regular 4 or 5 minute stays, start working on distance. How far can you get from him. When you start working on distance, forget time. Have him stay and and take a couple of steps away from him. After a couple of seconds release and praise and reward. Again, if anytime he breaks the stay there are no corrections of any kind. Simply place him back in the same place and start over. After you can move a couple of steps, move 5 steps away. When reliable, move 10 steps, then 15 then 20 then 30 them 50, etc. At no time when you are teaching distance do you keep him in a stay more than a couple of seconds once you reach the desired distance. 

Once you can get across the room, go back to the closer distances, say 5 steps away and start building up time at that distance. Have him stay for 5 seconds at 5 steps away. Gradually build up the time then move a greater distance away. You can progress pretty fast now because he has figured out the game. Once you get time and distance worked out, its time to begin destractions. 

Begin all over again with small destractions maybe in the yard with kids playing 2 or 3 houses away. Or in a parking lot with people 50 or 60 feet away. Again, you are working on distractions so you will start with 3 seconds standing by the dog. Gradually increase distractions until he is good with many distractions then go back to small distractions and work on time then distance. After that start with being out of sight. WHEW!!!! My fingers are tired. Now you have a dog that will stay in almost any conditions and do it reliably and you never used a correction one time. You never spoke a harsh word to him.

This is much easier to teach in person than on here but I hope you get the concept. It is a very powerful way to teach stay. Once you are into it, you can move up steps more quickly. If at any time the dog is not successful 80% of the time, loosen the criteria and start again. Never work more than 10 or 15 minutes in a stretch.



> There are several ways to load a "no" and it usually involves a distraction of some sort.


Use my method for teaching stay and you'll never use the word "no" in the whole process. The same principles apply to teaching any behavior. You can teach a dog anything without verbal or physical corrections and there is absolutely no reason to "load no". :smile:


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## SerenityFL

This dang thing keeps eating my replies.

I'll just say this then: RFD, you have pointed out something I was doing wrong. I did not realize that when you first teach them to "stay", you don't move away from them, not even a few steps. That's what I was doing. I would get him to lie down, I'd tell him to stay, I'd walk about two to three steps away and he was having none of that. The girl learned it quick even with me taking those few steps away and she can now go about 5 minutes in a stay and I can walk about 40 feet away from her now. So, with the boy, I'll start again and not take a step or two back from him.

As for distractions, not a problem. I have more distractions around here than I even want. It may take me a little longer on some things because of those distractions, (house training was a total chore because I had no choice but to go outside), but I'll tell you what, with the horrendous distractions around here, my dogs will probably be able to walk down a runway with planes coming at them and not flinch, when all is said and done. (Not that I'd do that, trying to use a comparison with noise and movement because there is a LOT of noise where I live. (Neighbors.) Who knew the Everglades was so dang noisy. It was quieter in the city than it is in my neighborhood here.)

I'm going to try it standing right next to him and not moving away at all. Sometimes it's the little things that we are missing that can make a big difference. We'll see how this works.


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## CavePaws

To sum it up kind of in a few words a stay starts with Duration then you move on to Distraction then you add Distance.

So keep your dog sitting for a bit, slowly add in some side to side steps with your feet, if he breaks move back into duration again. If you don't catch your dog and put him back into a stay quickly, within 3-5 seconds, that training moment is pretty much lost - so we add Distance in last. :]

I have to say, this thread is FULL of info for people. It's a great thread now! I hope everyone can set difference in opinion aside now, I think this thread will benefit outside readers because so many of the things mentioned in this thread are questions so many new dog owners wonder too!

OH. And we always tell people this, so if it isn't obvious, what you want to do is go back to your dog to reward them while in the stay. When working on stay work don't reward much for the release command, so once you release the dog no treats. Keep the treats in the Stay and your dog will think Stay is the bomb compared to being released..."Hmmmmm, I sit here while my momma gives me treats? Sounds awesome."


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## Tobi

CavePaws said:


> T
> OH. And we always tell people this, so if it isn't obvious, what you want to do is go back to your dog to reward them while in the stay. When working on stay work don't reward much for the release command, so once you release the dog no treats. Keep the treats in the Stay and your dog will think Stay is the bomb compared to being released..."Hmmmmm, I sit here while my momma gives me treats? Sounds awesome."


That has made a huge difference for us, we did this with stays, and we also did this with door greets and we would simply treat him with itty bitty treats every second or two while he was sitting with a new person sitting in front of him and it has made a massive difference in public and the way he interacts while meeting new people.


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## BrownieM

Yep, the release in itself is a reward.


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## SerenityFL

Well, the good news is that I have taught him that if he wants a treat, he has to sit. He doesn't get to jump up and grab it out of my hand. So, I'm going to have to work on getting the treat to him without him jumping from a lie down position to a sit position. I know, you put the treat lower, on the ground or whatever but it's still going to add some extra on this whole thing.

Really, I didn't think taking one or two steps back was a problem...I thought I shouldn't hover over my dog like that but I guess that was wrong. Whether he likes it or not, I'm gonna be hovering. 

So, how long do you think I should have him in the stay position until I take him outside to the mad house? I'm serious when I say there is a ton of distractions out there. I don't have a yard with privacy to get him started...when I walk out my door...distraction. Right away. I would have to do everything inside...(which is what I do except for learning to walk on leash without yanking my arm out of socket, bathroom breaks, etc), but I know that once he gets outside, the distractions are going to be a chore to deal with.

Truthfully, it's not their fault. It's me not knowing all the golden tricks and it's neighbors who are unwilling to listen to my requests to ignore the dogs until I tell the dogs they can meet the person.

Example, when I was house training, the boy got it pronto. I can take him out, he goes right away. I love him when it's raining and storming out. LOVE him. The girl wants to dink around and if there's someone there, (and there is always someone there...always..no matter what time of day...trust me, I've gone out at 2am thinking I'd have some quiet to train her....haha, jokes on me), she wants to say hi to them and dismiss the whole bathroom thing. And unfortunately, it took me months to finally convince the neighbors that when she is on this spot of grass, leave her alone, don't talk to her, don't talk to me, don't coo at her, don't come over, "She's only a puppy, c'mon", I know she's only a puppy, that's why I'm training her!~!!! Anyway, what was my point? Oh yah, not their fault. It's not their fault that the neighbors disregarded my requests that they stay away, ignore her so that she would realize that the only way she would get attention from them was AFTER she went. So, that took some time.

By the way....here's one for you all. Let's say I'm walking along, with the hoodlums, say, working on recall. They are doing beautifully, coming, getting their treats, being heaven dogs. And then, along comes someone or they run off to someone who just came out of their yard and that person bends down, pets them, tells them that they are a good dog, blah, blah, blah...I've had problems with really "disciplining" the dogs for that because, again, I don't particularly think that is the dog's fault. They got a reward for running off....that's what they've learned. Until I can get neighbors to respect my requests of "ignore them completely" when the hoodlums do that, what do I do to let the dogs know that what they just did is unacceptable?

The most I've been able to do is, for example with Sakari, she really wants to tear off and run off about 100 yards away to go play with another dog down the way.  I've tried, several times, to ask the person to please ignore her. He does not. He laughs and thinks it's all so very funny. He pets her, he gives her treats, he watches as his dog and her play together while I'm calling her back. So, I march on down there, with leash in hand, clip it on her, I don't say a thing to her, we walk back in total silence, I ignore her, I don't talk to her, I don't look at her and we go back to the spot where we were and try it again. But, that does not seem to sink home with her. She doesn't run off towards this area much anymore because she is getting the hang of recall but, still...what would be the proper way to show them, teach them, whatever you want to call it, that what they did is unacceptable?


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## CavePaws

Here is what I would do for the distraction work.
Do everything you can possibly do inside that is extremely distracting. Throw food across the floor, something really high value. Throw toys in the air. Run around, roll on the floor, laugh hysterically, open an umbrella, drop something really noisy on the ground. Do everything you can possibly think of. Dogs are distracted by sights, smells, and sounds. Make sure you cover all of those inside before taking them outside.

Work when it is as quiet as possible for 5 minutes outside and do it every few hours or spread out throughout the day if possible. Work it everyday if only for a total of 30 minutes a day. 

If you have a long line you can work on your recalls with that. If your dog runs away, step on the long line. Don't yank it, just step on it. Don't get mad, remain neutral, use the long line to bring them back in and don't look at them, touch them, or talk to them as those are all rewarding. If you really want to nip the behavior in the but, take them inside as quickly as possible for a time out. Bring them back out 20 minutes later and try again, they run off, bring them in again. Remember remain neutral. 

Ps & Qs of recall.

1. Don't Dilute - Use one word and one word only. Choose it wisely, something you can say in a happy tone. When you call your dog you want them coming on the first try and the first try only, never repeat that recall word. "Barney, COME BARNEY, COME, COME!" is going to get your dog nowhere. Call with "Barney" wait for eye contact, "Come!" Be happy, fill it with joy and glee, in the down time when he is coming to you fill in that time with "What a good dog, clever boy, oh you're the best" When he gets to you give him at least 20 seconds of praise and love and treats. Use something extremely high value
2. Don't Punish - Never use your recall word in a negative way. If you call your dog over to the Sofa he tore up twenty minutes ago he will have no clue what you're punishing him for. He won't associate it. "Barney, COME. BAD DOG BARNEY!" I mean, common sense, what does he think he did wrong? Coming to you.
3. No Penalizing - There are things no dog wants done sometimes, like a bath, nails clipped, or ears cleaned...But they are necessary and it's sort of like us paying our taxes. If you call your dog over to the bath tub he isn't going to want to come, he is going to question if something bad will happen if he comes. Always call your dog to a different spot in the house every time for things he does not enjoy, if you're going to the bath tub, call your dog into the kitchen, praise, and then lead him to the bathroom.
4. Remember your Posture - Dogs view leaning over as something threatening. They are extremely in tune with our facial features and body language. When you call your dog act happy, if you run backwards a lot of times they will follow, FAST.

If you ever need an emergency recall, you can 1. Sit on the ground in a play position and act like you are eating something or throwing grass about the air. Or B. Act like you are dying on the ground, fall and scream like you're seriously injured. You will be surprised at how many strange dogs I've saved with this. I've never had to use it on my own dogs thank god, but if I needed to I know they would come rushing back to me. You feed, shelter, and love your dog, of course he is going to want to know what's up if you look injured. Just don't do it unless it is an extreme emergency or else you're going to have a dog who is like, "Ohhhh mom, she's always hurt...What a wimp" Kind of like the boy who cries wolf.


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## pandaparade

great advice Cavepaws. I love the idea of the emergency recalls.


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## SerenityFL

CavePaws said:


> Here is what I would do for the distraction work.
> Do everything you can possibly do inside that is extremely distracting. Throw food across the floor, something really high value. Throw toys in the air. Run around, roll on the floor, laugh hysterically, open an umbrella, drop something really noisy on the ground. Do everything you can possibly think of. Dogs are distracted by sights, smells, and sounds. Make sure you cover all of those inside before taking them outside.


Great ideas. Mostly I've been using the cats as distractions but I'll definitely do these. These are great because they go insane for their toys when I bring the tub out. HAHA, I can't wait to start on distractions.



> Work when it is as quiet as possible for 5 minutes outside and do it every few hours or spread out throughout the day if possible. Work it everyday if only for a total of 30 minutes a day.


That is going to be difficult. I do have to sleep sometime and like I said in my earlier post, I've tried coming out at 2am for quite time but there's always someone there! But, they all have to go inside some time......right?



> If you have a long line you can work on your recalls with that. If your dog runs away, step on the long line. Don't yank it, just step on it. Don't get mad, remain neutral, use the long line to bring them back in and don't look at them, touch them, or talk to them as those are all rewarding.


This is how we began recall training. They did great so I started taking them off lead. Most of the time, they both do brilliantly with clicker and treats now. Shasta, the boy, sometimes decides that a pile of poo from another dog is far more interesting than I am so I have to work on getting him to leave that stuff alone. If there is no poo pile for him to munch, he listens and comes back as soon as I say his name. Sakari, (the girl), also does pretty darn good most of the time but when she sees that other dog, down the way, 90% of the time I say, "Do you REALLY want to make that choice?" It's obviously my tone, not my words but she will come back, 90% of the time. The other 10%....pscht. Who cares what you say, lady. So, I'm trying to figure out how to fix this. The quickest way would be for the neighbor not to reward her when she does that as other neighbors have started to ignore them, at my request and now the dogs don't go bolting over to them. They wait for me to allow them to go to that person. But this neighbor...nope. So I'm trying to work on this and figure out how to get her to be 100% despite the rewards she gets for going there.



> If you really want to nip the behavior in the but, take them inside as quickly as possible for a time out. Bring them back out 20 minutes later and try again, they run off, bring them in again. Remember remain neutral.


I actually thought about doing just that the other day when she pulled her little stunt again but didn't know if that was right or not because would she remember why I was bringing her in by the time we got there. So I just clipped the leash on her, listened as my neighbor said to her, "Uh-oh, you're in trouble now!" (Yah, thanks for petting her and playing with her...THANKS! FOR THAT!), and walked back to our "tree" (our meeting place, under a tree), without looking at her, talking to her, acknowleding her. That was the best I could come up with at that moment. 



> Ps & Qs of recall.
> 
> 1. Don't Dilute - Use one word and one word only. Choose it wisely, something you can say in a happy tone. When you call your dog you want them coming on the first try and the first try only, never repeat that recall word. "Barney, COME BARNEY, COME, COME!" is going to get your dog nowhere. Call with "Barney" wait for eye contact, "Come!" Be happy, fill it with joy and glee, in the down time when he is coming to you fill in that time with "What a good dog, clever boy, oh you're the best" When he gets to you give him at least 20 seconds of praise and love and treats. Use something extremely high value


I say, "here". And yes, when they turn to look at me, I mark it with, "YES!!", when they come running, I say, "Yay! Good job!" and when they get there, they go in to sit position, I hand them their treat, (usually a gizzard or chicken heart), and pet them and throw them a ticker tape parade. Trust me, they get their rewards from me. 



> 2. Don't Punish - Never use your recall word in a negative way. If you call your dog over to the Sofa he tore up twenty minutes ago he will have no clue what you're punishing him for. He won't associate it. "Barney, COME. BAD DOG BARNEY!" I mean, common sense, what does he think he did wrong? Coming to you.


Nope. Never do. That's why I was asking how to let them know, after, that what they did was wrong. For example, if she runs off, I call her over, I can't do much because she did come over. I have to reward her for coming over. But how do I let her know that running off in the first place was wrong? 



> 3. No Penalizing - There are things no dog wants done sometimes, like a bath, nails clipped, or ears cleaned...But they are necessary and it's sort of like us paying our taxes. If you call your dog over to the bath tub he isn't going to want to come, he is going to question if something bad will happen if he comes. Always call your dog to a different spot in the house every time for things he does not enjoy, if you're going to the bath tub, call your dog into the kitchen, praise, and then lead him to the bathroom.


They love baths, I don't do their toenails because it's not pretty, I let the vet do them and unfortunately, they have to muzzle the boy during this process but at least they are fast. Not like when I try it. It's usually a sad and horrifying scene because they HATE getting their nails trimmed. Act like I'm trimming their legs off the way they carry on. So, meh, I don't do that anymore. The only things they don't enjoy are not being allowed to eat other dog poo and stop eating all my stuff in the house. 



> 4. Remember your Posture - Dogs view leaning over as something threatening. They are extremely in tune with our facial features and body language. When you call your dog act happy, if you run backwards a lot of times they will follow, FAST.


Yes, I did the running backwards thing when we started learning recall. Yes, it works pretty darn good. And then I crashed in to someone's travel trailer that was sitting parked and knocked myself to the ground and almost out. Whee! But yes, it works well.

Now, see, the leaning over thing...that's why I was taking a step or two back when I was teaching the "stay" command. Exactly. But I'm being told to stand right next to them, not take that step or two back....so...some things can be confusing.



> If you ever need an emergency recall, you can 1. Sit on the ground in a play position and act like you are eating something or throwing grass about the air. Or B. Act like you are dying on the ground, fall and scream like you're seriously injured. You will be surprised at how many strange dogs I've saved with this. I've never had to use it on my own dogs thank god, but if I needed to I know they would come rushing back to me. You feed, shelter, and love your dog, of course he is going to want to know what's up if you look injured. Just don't do it unless it is an extreme emergency or else you're going to have a dog who is like, "Ohhhh mom, she's always hurt...What a wimp" Kind of like the boy who cries wolf.


I've done the play thing and it can work IF I can get them before they lock on to the new target, (ie: dog 100 yards away...after that, it's done), and I have actually done the lay on the ground thing with the boy. I didn't scream or act injured, I just laid on the ground. Boy did he come running. And proceeded to trample all over me trying to make me get up. But it worked...again, if I can get their attention before they lock on to something else.


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## CavePaws

If they are staying well when you are taking a step or two back, then they are getting distance. Throw the treat between her paws, sometimes when you reward a dog from your hand they want to interact with you more, meaning they'll follow you for the treats.

I think you should use the long line for the recalls for now, just because if that neighbor comes around you can stop them immediately from getting to him, thus they receive no reward. If you can manage to get her inside within 5 - 10 seconds (RUN) then I think she will remember. 10 minutes later though she probably will forget about it. But I think it's going to make her think more, "Hmm, why did mom stop playing with me and now I'm stuck in here?!"


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## RawFedDogs

SerenityFL said:


> This is how we began recall training. They did great so I started taking them off lead. Most of the time, they both do brilliantly with clicker and treats now.


Don't let them off leash all of a sudden. They know when they have a leash on and when they don't. Try this ... Don't use a long leash ... instead, use a rope or clothes line about 30 feet long. You can get a clip at the hardware store and tie it on one end of the long line or rope. After the dogs have done good for a week without having to step on the rope, cut a foot off the end of it. The next week cut another foot and the same each week until the rope is dangling from their collar and not even touching the ground. NOW you will have a dog trained off leash. :biggrin: Don't let the dog see you cutting the rope shorter.



> So I'm trying to work on this and figure out how to get her to be 100% despite the rewards she gets for going there.


Asking 100% from a dog is asking a lot. I don't know if you have human children but I promise you that you can't get 100% from them so it's unfair to ask a dog to be 100%. I used to worry a LOT about my dogs not being perfect. I would tell my self that I am a professional dog trainer and my dogs should be perfect. I was embarrassed they they weren't. Then one night as I was falling asleep it was if I heard this voice coming out of nowhere .... "BILL!!, Your wife isn't perfect ... your son isn't perfect .... none of your friends is perfect ... believe it or not, you aren't even perfect ... why the hell do you expect your dogs to be perfect!" I never worried again after that about my dogs not being perfect. Best advice I ever gave myself. :biggrin:


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## CavePaws

That's a good trick for fading the long line RFD! Thanks for that!
And I always worried myself about my dogs not being perfect...I'm a dog trainer with a pretty aggressive dog, talk about embarrassing sometimes! But hey, I've got other dogs who like playing and are just big doofs, they all have strengths and weakness just like me. I love them for who they are and except this, nothing wrong with trying to get the best out of them that you can, you just can't expect perfection all the time!


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## SerenityFL

RawFedDogs said:


> Don't let them off leash all of a sudden. They know when they have a leash on and when they don't. Try this ... Don't use a long leash ... instead, use a rope or clothes line about 30 feet long. You can get a clip at the hardware store and tie it on one end of the long line or rope. After the dogs have done good for a week without having to step on the rope, cut a foot off the end of it. The next week cut another foot and the same each week until the rope is dangling from their collar and not even touching the ground. NOW you will have a dog trained off leash. :biggrin: Don't let the dog see you cutting the rope shorter.


HA! Brilliant. I'm totally doing this. You are right, they know darn good and well when they are on a leash and when they aren't and yes, their behavior does change when they know they aren't. And no, I won't let them see me do the cutting....I pretty much try to hide anything I do that outsmarts them because I know they watch. And plan. 



> Asking 100% from a dog is asking a lot. I don't know if you have human children but I promise you that you can't get 100% from them so it's unfair to ask a dog to be 100%. I used to worry a LOT about my dogs not being perfect. I would tell my self that I am a professional dog trainer and my dogs should be perfect. I was embarrassed they they weren't. Then one night as I was falling asleep it was if I heard this voice coming out of nowhere .... "BILL!!, Your wife isn't perfect ... your son isn't perfect .... none of your friends is perfect ... believe it or not, you aren't even perfect ... why the hell do you expect your dogs to be perfect!" I never worried again after that about my dogs not being perfect. Best advice I ever gave myself. :biggrin:


Well, I feel the same way but I guess I succumbed to the pressure of what other trainers have written, what other people have said, the braggarts, "My dog learned to sit, stay, heel and go to the bathroom in the first 10 minutes I had them", people who meet the dogs and neighbors who want to argue with how I feed, how I train, etc. I felt like I was failing if they weren't 100%. Frankly, I'm pretty dang happy that they come back 90% of the time. To me, I think that's a great success. I was really hoping to get recall to 100% and let them slack in other areas, (like heeling I just do not care about one bit...just don't pull me down the street), but maybe they don't have to be perfect in anything. Well, there is that one exception because of where I live but that's the only one. So I'm going to adopt that philosophy and be a little easier on them.

Of course, having said that, today, magically, Sakari, (the girl), walked behind me the entire time when we were off leash. I didn't ask her to, I didn't try to make her do that, she just chose to allow me to lead. We walked in giant circles and she stayed right behind me, on my left, the whole time. I almost fell over in disbelief. So, Shasta, who had been running off ahead and stopping every so often to look back and wait a bit, saw that I was loving this from Sakari and he, too, decided that, hey, maybe walking with me, off leash, wasn't such a bad idea after all. That's when the treats started flying. All this time I was hoping I could get them to do that and after awhile, I kinda gave up on it in the off leash area...and suddenly, out of the blue, the little hoodlum punk who likes to make up her own mind more often than not decided to do what I was hoping she would do but stopped asking her to do. So maybe you have a point with your theory.....and when you let up, things start happening.


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## CavePaws

Sounds like you've got two smart little cookies on your hand. How old are they?


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## SerenityFL

CavePaws said:


> Sounds like you've got two smart little cookies on your hand. How old are they?


They are 10 months old. I got them when they were between 3-4 months old. We've been learning a lot from each other and I think, at long last, the girl is respecting me. (I probably just jinxed myself and she'll act a fool tomorrow.) The boy, we are still working on domination issues...he likes to lean on me when we go out to conduct business...especially if he knows there are people out and about...and he likes to put his paws on me when I call him over...so we work on that.

It is HARD not to let him lean on me because I am humanizing what it means but I know it's a dominance thing so I fight the humanizing thing and don't allow it...but I can see he's going to be quite protective of me.


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## CavePaws

Like he hits you with his paws/jumps on you? Leaning on you could most definitely be interpreted as dominating behavior/protective behavior or even a nervous behavior. A few of my dogs lean on me, I think it's as if they want to know they have back up if something goes down. I'm not an expert on dominating behavior though, I'm no behaviorist and have yet to own a truly dominant dog. All I can say is don't alpha roll him! LOL.


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## SerenityFL

CavePaws said:


> Like he hits you with his paws/jumps on you? Leaning on you could most definitely be interpreted as dominating behavior/protective behavior or even a nervous behavior. A few of my dogs lean on me, I think it's as if they want to know they have back up if something goes down. I'm not an expert on dominating behavior though, I'm no behaviorist and have yet to own a truly dominant dog. All I can say is don't alpha roll him! LOL.


I was told that it was a dominating thing...I like to think of it as a protecting thing. He's definitely protective. I don't really think it's a "back up" thing because he stands between me and whatever it is, leans on me and will bark and growl at the person or whatever it is that he doesn't like. Kinda like he's saying, "This is mine, don't touch!" Which, touching, yes but I'm the one who is supposed to be dominant, not him.

Anyway, no alpha rolling...I'll leave that to my idiot neighbor.

NOT! =)


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## RawFedDogs

I think leaning is a protective thing. Abby has always done this with me. She will get between me and a stranger or other percieved danger and will try to push me back. I also like to think its a affection thing, like she can't get close enough to me. I've never thought of it as domination. Great Danes are notorious for doing this. I think its because they are big enough to do it. I can't see a pom trying this behavior. :biggrin:


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