# :( Raw problems, I think we're going to go back to kibble



## WonderPup (Mar 23, 2011)

We've been experimenting for almost a month now with raw and I am just frustrated. 

Two out of the three dog's that are completely raw are losing weight. They are just under 50lbs each and eating close to a pound and a half of food a day. One is 8 years old and not active at all. The other two dog's are only half raw and one is OK and one now has some irritation in her throat probably from a bone and is coughing like crazy. I thought she was sick and took her to the vet but she isn't ill. The vet said she would be fine but it would take a few days. :/ 
Tonight one of the all raw poodles is pooping blood and I am waiting for the doctor at the e-clinic to call me back.... If we have to take her I'm pretty sure my husband will say that's the end of the raw diet, we have to be realistic about our budget and the e-clinic is amazingly expensive. Oh and b/c I know somebody will ask, YES they ALL chew their food really well. I sit and watch them, all of them. It takes them forever (in toddler time) to eat which isn't always an easy thing but I still watch them.
Also since I started the raw all five dog's are mowing the grass constantly. They've never really done that before. Now it's difficult to get them to go out and go potty or come in from the yard when it's time b/c they are to busy eating grass. 

Aside from the physical issues the cost is CRAZY expensive.. I'm thinking we just aren't going to be able to afford this, especially if it's going to result in vet bills. Even through the local group here the price per pound is only a couple pennies better than what I can find on my own. Plus my dog's are eating a lot more than I thought they would. A 10 lb bag of chicken quarters didn't last us but two days between just three dogs. When I did the math I figured that amount would last three days but I couldn't predict how consistent in size the chicken would be. I just did the math and that is going to cost me in the neighborhood of 20 bucks a week and we haven't even gotten to the more expensive boneless meat yet.  That figure is also one day short of a full week and it's just for three of the dogs. I keep hearing how inexpensive this way of feeding is and sorry but the math just doesn't add up here. I did a what it should cost me type of deal based on current prices and how much I figured my dog's should be eating and it wasn't soo bad. It was also fiction, I'm discovering that in real life the number ismuch much higher. 

So bummed out, b/c I really think being able to control what is in my dog's diets is an important thing. I wish I could. Maybe I am just doing something wrong and I need to wait this out, we'll see. We do have two dog's who are doing no worse on raw than they were on kibble and are fine. They are also fitting into the models of how I figured they should be eating and how much it should be costing me to feed them. Our little girl now eats every night with no question which she's not been good about before. I guess I need some additional guidance which obviously the vet isn't going to give me  
Maybe I need to back up and do forget the prey model idea and go more BARF style which is how I used to do it years back. ??? I don't know, maybe I will just go back to kibble and call it a day.


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## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

Oh dear. I am so sorry.

I just started this week so I can't give any advice, but I know that if my dogs get bones stuck in their throats, bloody diarrhea, and are losing weight I would surely have to think about sticking with it.

And I do agree about the cost - since I don't get any thrills out of finding stuff for cheap (I just want to buy it, not work for it) I am thinking this could be pretty expensive. 

I do hope the great folks here can give you some good advice so you don't have to quit. But the bones thing causing your dog problems - frankly, that worries me also since I just gave my dog his first day of chicken with bones yesterday and I haven't seen any pooping yet.


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## RaisingWolves (Mar 19, 2011)

xellil said:


> And I do agree about the cost - since I don't get any thrills out of finding stuff for cheap (I just want to buy it, not work for it) I am thinking this could be pretty expensive.


I'm the same way. Several people I know have asked me how much I spend, and I tell them that I'm not the norm. I don't bargain shop, I buy. It I'm being honest, I spend around$300-$400 a month on raw food for two dogs. Hey, it's cheaper than feeding two growing boys! 
Natalie's blog post about buying in bulk has motivated me to call around and look for some bulk meat deals.

Wonderpup, I'm sorry about your struggles. I never had any problems when I transitioned my dogs, so I have no advice to offer. . I'm sure you will get some great advice from the other members here.


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## Love my lab (Dec 9, 2010)

Bones do cause a hardened poop and that is why when a dog 1st starts out it is always best to use more bone so that they dont end up w/ loose poops during the transition. I would say just watch and make sure you dog does poop and if she doesn't add a little more meat. I was lucky my dog did her transition w/out any loose poops. I have only been on for almost 4 months so my experience is very young, but the cost can be expensive if you dont do the leg work. But buying in bulk like say from your butcher or co-op groups should help in cost. Although, I just joined one and have not ordered but some of the prices are higher and some are lower---bottom line from what I see you just have to know your prices just like shopping for your family. I was going through two 18lb bags of dog food per month at $30.00 per bag and my raw doesn't cost near anything close to that, however I am only feeding one dog who I am feeding 1.6lbs per day. (started her at 2 lbs per day and she put on wieght so I hope the drop will help her drop as well ) For me I think getting the freezer stocked up was the worst mainly becasue I couldn't stop buying..lol..now I just buy when I see sales and that keeps me at a steady pace in the freezer. I am very sure others who are way more experienced can give advice to you wonderpup. They are really great at advice and helping one through a tough time. Hope things work out w/ your dog


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## RawFedDogs (Jun 16, 2008)

Almost no one has problems when starting a dog on a raw diet. It's as easy as 1,2,3. When I hear of someone having multiple problems with multiple dogs, that tells me they are doing something wrong. I'm not there watching you so I don't know what it is but I'm confident there is user error here. I just re-read your post and I can't give you any help because it appears you are trying to feed half kibble and half raw. Maybe I am reading wrong. It is just impossible to diagnose problems with a diet like that. Maybe someone else will be able to help you.

ETA: If you are feeding 10lbs of quarters in 2 days between three medium size dogs and feeding kibble too, you are feeding way too much. A 50 lb dogs should eat no more than 2 quarters a day without eating anything else.


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## Boxers&Pom's Mom (Jan 17, 2011)

I been feeding my dogs RAW for about three months. If you follow Natalie's instructions, it is going to be an easy transition. You can find a lot of suppliers if you meet one of the Yahoo's Groups or Co-Op.
http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/CarnivoreFeed-Supplier/post
Also Frank's site can help you.
Skylar, Zack, and Abby on the WEB
Yesterday Cassie has a bit of loose stool and I just feed her some more bone in her next meal. 
It is going to take some times for you to figure it up. I am agree that you are feeding too much. 
If they are loosing weight is maybe the diarrheas for been over feeding.
Here is a lot of people with good experience that will chime in and give you better ideas.
Good Luck, but don't give up.


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## Northwoods10 (Nov 22, 2010)

So, you're just starting out. Lets take a look at what you're feeding. Is it just chicken quarters? Where are you getting them....if you're getting them in a big bag from a grocery store please take a look at the sodium content. Often times the bulk bags you buy for human consumption are full of sodium. They inject the meat with a "broth" to make it weigh more so that they can charge more for it. Smart, eh? 

Sodium could cause a lot of issues...such as diarrhea if fed in excess plus its just not good for them. I'm not saying this is the culprit, but very well could be an added factor to things. 

RawFedDogs is right that you are feeding way too much to dogs of that size. Even if you were feeding 3% of their body weight per day (to a 50 lb dog) that should only be 1.5 lbs. So if you are feeding 3 dogs 1.5 lbs per day, a 10 lb bag of chicken should last you over two days. Are you using a scale to measure your meals or just eyeing it? 

Break it down for us as to which dogs are eating full raw and which are on half/half. That will help us figure some things out as to what may be going on. 

The bloody poop....a lot of blood or just a few spots? Sometimes this happens during transition and its not something to be alarmed about. Digestive upset & strain on the system trying to process a whole new way of feeding....it usually clears up on its own if handled correctly. 

As for loosing weight, again lets take a look at what dogs are eating what and their weights/ages. 

Raw is and should be easy, but it does always take some tweaking to make it fit for each dog. I have 3 dogs and each one of them is different as to what they can handle and how much. It can be frustrating but we are here to help. Please don't give up just yet.


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## SerenityFL (Sep 28, 2010)

I don't have any advice if you are giving half kibble and half raw except that it could be the source of the problem. Starting out with bone in chicken for the first two weeks, nothing else, absolutely nothing else, is the best way to transition. They might have weird poos at the beginning, a few days, tops but they should quickly adapt after that. Which is why chicken is always recommended because it's the easiest for dogs to digest.

As for weight, I don't know what type of dogs you are talking about but remember that raw keeps them lean. We are used to seeing dogs that are fat and most people, (I'm not saying you), think that a fat dog is a healthy dog. A lot of people like to point out how lean raw fed dogs are...some realize it's good and some think the dog is too thin. Look at the chart at your vet's office...your dog should be lean. Hourglass shape. But, again, I don't know what type of dogs you are talking about and what they look like.

Did they have health issues before starting raw? Were those all checked out before starting raw? I find it very difficult to believe that raw is the problem here. 

You said one of your dogs is coughing like crazy but the vet said your dog isn't sick...then how can you attribute that to raw? I don't understand.

The poodle pooping blood...how much blood? Are we talking splashes of it or a spotting here and there? If I feed too much bone, I might see a spot or two...so cut down on the bone and add more meat. 

A month in you should have only been feeding bone in chicken for two weeks and just recently added another protein like turkey. Alternating that with chicken...one meal chicken, one meal turkey. Raw transitioning must be done very slowly, we cannot be in a rush to get them to eat everything or you will see problems. I'm not saying what you have or have not done, I'm not there, I'm simply saying, two weeks of bone in chicken, the next two weeks shouldn't be anything more than bone in chicken and one other protein, alternated. They should still be eating mostly chicken.

If you were looking for advice, I would suggest stop feeding kibble. Start over with two weeks of bone in chicken and nothing else. Get rid of the kibble. That's what I would tell you if you said, "Serenity, specifically, from you, what do you think I should do?"

Also, cost...listen, I don't know what is wrong with the state of Florida but they charge WAY TOO MUCH for food here, especially meat. Seattle was an expensive city to live in but the meat was not atrociously priced like it is here. I don't know if your Publix has those chicken quarters in a bag...cost about $7....it's a bag that is half clear and half orangish/red and it has enough to feed three dogs for a week while transitioning. ONE quarter should be enough for a 50 pound dog.

I have a 44-46 pound dog and he gets one quarter when I feed chicken. Weigh it, usually it's more than a pound. 

When they get in to the other stuff, you can find those pork shoulder picnic roast things that appear to cost a lot but $25 gets you almost 30 pounds of meat and skin. (Throw that dang bone away, don't do what I did....seriously. It's too much.) That should last three dogs a couple of meals each. Get a good, sharp knife because it's a pain in the behind otherwise to cut up.

You should also be able to find hearts, gizzards and liver for totally inexpensive because we live in a state where people like to eat the strangest things and because they eat those strange things, those strange things don't cost much.

Beef? Hey, good luck finding a good price on that around here. I do agree with you, the cost is not as inexpensive as some say it is, not in this state it's not. And that is a decision you will have to make....I spend between $150-200 on two dogs and 7 cats. No way is that less expensive that kibble. Do I still think of switching back to kibble? Only when I get the bill at the end of my grocery transaction. Because it's ridiculous that 90 pounds of meat, bone and organ is costing me that much. It should NOT cost me that much. This state likes to rip us off with prices. I know that pain. But I push that down when I see their pearly white teeth, their shiny, pretty fur, their energy, how happy they are....and I stick with it. 

There has to be a place that we can find cheaper meat.

If your dogs get a clean bill of health from the vet, and you drop the kibble, get rid of it, do two weeks of chicken with bone and nothing else, you shouldn't have to take them to the vet like that and that should keep costs down. In the meantime, keep looking for ways to get meat cheaper. I think there's a few people on this forum alone who live in central or even northern Florida. I know there are three that live in the Miami area and we are trying to find a way to get cheaper meat. What I do know is that if we keep shopping at Publix, we are going to spend a lot of money and be ripped off, constantly. So keep looking. 

And I'll echo: Don't give up.


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## eternalstudent (Jul 22, 2010)

I would honestly wait until you have transistioned fully before starting to worry .

How come you are still feeding kibble?

There are lots of reasons for irritated throats and bottoms for the little puppers. The way I look at problems is:
1st i always think about is what if this were a child, what would I do?
2nd what is it that i am doing that might have caused this

Not to sound to stomach-turning but what is the blood in the stool like, and what was the stool itself like?

If the answer is very hard stool and bright red blood, then it is most likely to be just irritation to the back passage itself and will normally heal with no problems.
With the throat irritation it will be something similar and again it is not normally a problem

Both of these issues will over time resolve as the digestive juices in the stomach build up and the mucus membranes produce more the stools will slip out like little cannon balls 

When it comes to buying food, there is cheap food out there but you do have to search for it. Over-here where meat is silly money (cheapest beef is $8 - 10 lb) I am still able to feed at less than the cost of chappie dog food. Normally you get what you pay for but in this instance it is time that is the cost.

The maintaining of weight will come when you have transistioned and learn how you can alter things.

Good luck with it, but get I would get on the program and stick with it!!!:grouphug:

Ok the two posts above where done while I was trying to pen the reply theirs is good advice


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

RawFedDogs said:


> Almost no one has problems when starting a dog on a raw diet. It's as easy as 1,2,3. When I hear of someone having multiple problems with multiple dogs, that tells me they are doing something wrong. I'm not there watching you so I don't know what it is but I'm confident there is user error here. I just re-read your post and I can't give you any help because it appears you are trying to feed half kibble and half raw. Maybe I am reading wrong. It is just impossible to diagnose problems with a diet like that. Maybe someone else will be able to help you.
> 
> ETA: If you are feeding 10lbs of quarters in 2 days between three medium size dogs and feeding kibble too, you are feeding way too much. A 50 lb dogs should eat no more than 2 quarters a day without eating anything else.


i am one of the user errors who almost gave up on raw because i didn't follow the plan...and in looking back, i realise now i got in my own way, stepped over my own feet, because i overthought it....

it really is much easier than you think....and i'm sorry to say this, but i agree with rawfeddogs that you're complicating this when it doesn't have to be.

in the beginning, less is better than more and a little more bone is better than less bone....

that is why many of us start with chicken backs.....and if calculations come out to a pound and a half, we might feed a pound.

the calculations on your fifty pound dog comes out to 16 oz per day....that is aproximately 2 quarters per day. 

personally, though, i'd make one of those meals a chicken back and one of the meals a leg quarter....

try that for a week and come back, and let us help you. there are so many of us who have walked where you've walked....


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## KC23 (Nov 17, 2010)

I think it's best to weigh stuff out at first, at least until you get a good idea of portion size. I have a dog who is over 50 lbs., and he gets 16 oz. per day (basing his diet on ideal weight). Many leg quarters I have bought are one pound or more. I just finally got a batch with some smaller ones that weigh 8 to 10 oz. Same with wings--I intentionally bought wings for my smallest dog so he could have lighter bone-in meals. I bought 20 lbs. Some weigh 3 oz. while others are huge and weigh 8 oz. I still use a scale everyday. It helps me a lot as I am trying to get 2 of my 3 dogs to slim down a little. I weigh their chicken in the morning, then I can easily figure out how much to give them later for their boneless meal.


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

KC23 said:


> I think it's best to weigh stuff out at first, at least until you get a good idea of portion size. I have a dog who is over 50 lbs., and he gets 16 oz. per day (basing his diet on ideal weight). Many leg quarters I have bought are one pound or more. I just finally got a batch with some smaller ones that weigh 8 to 10 oz. Same with wings--I intentionally bought wings for my smallest dog so he could have lighter bone-in meals. I bought 20 lbs. Some weigh 3 oz. while others are huge and weigh 8 oz. I still use a scale everyday. It helps me a lot as I am trying to get 2 of my 3 dogs to slim down a little. I weigh their chicken in the morning, then I can easily figure out how much to give them later for their boneless meal.


i weigh everything because i'm a failure at estimating weight...possibly because i am russian we want to overfeed the world....LOL

one of my biggest user errors in the beginning was overfeeding....it took a bit to learn that no, they won't starve, no matter how pathetic they look and also less is better in the beginning....even if they lose some weight....they'll get it back in the form of muscle which makes for a tighter looking dog...something we're not used to.

my malia is 11 going on twelve and the girl has muscles.....she ran around like a fiend all of her life and she didn't have muscles like she has now....and she's an old gal.


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## DaneMama (Jun 27, 2008)

To me it sounds like you're making things tons harder than they need to be. You need to start from square one and decide if you want to feed raw or kibble. Your dogs don't seem to be handling them well combined. 

If you live within an hour of a larger city you can find good deals on meat, you just have to do some work finding it. Call butchers, wholesalers, restaurant supplies, find a co op. Unless you live in the middle of no where or far from any major city then I could see it being hard to find a good deal on meats. 

I sure hope you stick with it, we can help you start from square one and go from there.


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## RaisingWolves (Mar 19, 2011)

Natalie, 
Will any meat wholesaler sell to the public if the order is large enough? 
I would love to buy in bulk but I don't know how to begin.


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## DaneMama (Jun 27, 2008)

Honestly I don't know. You have to call and find out. Do a general google search for "wholesale meat distributors in _______" the blank being whatever city is close by. Then call each one up and ask if they will sell to a private party. If they will ask for a price list of their meats and cuts. If you do a similar search but for butchers instead of wholesale places I'd go in person and talk to the manager. Doing things in person can be a lot more helpful for both sides.


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## Northwoods10 (Nov 22, 2010)

RaisingWolves said:


> Natalie,
> Will any meat wholesaler sell to the public if the order is large enough?
> I would love to buy in bulk but I don't know how to begin.


In my experience, some of the large restaurant suppliers require HUGE orders. Like 600 lbs or more. Try yahoo groups and search for raw groups in your area. This is how I found our co-ops.


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## DaneMama (Jun 27, 2008)

Here's a list of co ops I've put together:

http://dogfoodchat.com/forum/raw-feeding/1647-raw-feeding-co-op-list.html


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## RachelsaurusRexU (Sep 4, 2010)

RaisingWolves said:


> I'm the same way. Several people I know have asked me how much I spend, and I tell them that I'm not the norm. I don't bargain shop, I buy. It I'm being honest, I spend around$300-$400 a month on raw food for two dogs. Hey, it's cheaper than feeding two growing boys!
> Natalie's blog post about buying in bulk has motivated me to call around and look for some bulk meat deals.
> 
> Wonderpup, I'm sorry about your struggles. I never had any problems when I transitioned my dogs, so I have no advice to offer. . I'm sure you will get some great advice from the other members here.


Holy smokes! I spend less than that on five medium-large dogs for six weeks! You would save SO much buying in bulk!


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## RaisingWolves (Mar 19, 2011)

DaneMama said:


> Here's a list of co ops I've put together:
> 
> http://dogfoodchat.com/forum/raw-feeding/1647-raw-feeding-co-op-list.html



Unfortunately, my local co-op(yahoo group) has had nothing for the 8.5 years I've been feeding raw. I found My Pet Carnivore on the list, and people who supply Bravo and Oma's Pride. 
I'm going to call around. My husband travels to Davenport Iowa a few times a month. I could look to see if there is anything in that direction.


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## Jgk2383 (Oct 27, 2010)

Im so sorry, I dont have any advice to add, but I do feel your pain cost wise. I buy in bulk when I can but I average about $600.00 a month, Some months a little more some a little less. I feed 2Adult Male German shepherds weighing 80lbs each a 6 month old German shepherd pup who weighs 60lb and 3 small rat terriers, 12 lbs each. Its crazy.


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## DaneMama (Jun 27, 2008)

We spend about $300-400 per month to feed four great Danes ranging from 90-120 pounds and two mutts that are about 65 pounds a piece.


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## tem_sat (Jun 20, 2010)

On the other hand...I estimate I spend between $75.00 and $100.00 per YEAR to feed my doxie!  

Yea!


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## Boxers&Pom's Mom (Jan 17, 2011)

tem_sat said:


> On the other hand...I estimate I spend between $75.00 and $100.00 per YEAR to feed my doxie!
> 
> Yea!


So far it is what I think I will spend for two Boxers and a Pomeranian. Probably, I been spending more because I tried to get Protein Variety, but so far I have in my freezer rabbit, horse, beef, veal, sheep, turkey, liver, green tripe, kidney, chicken, duck and fish. 
If I don't buy anything else. Probably I will have meat for three or four months.


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## Kofismom (Sep 14, 2010)

WonderPup,

I hate to see that you're having such a difficult time with trying to feed raw,but is the problem really with feeding raw?

I thought about it for months, before I began to do serious research. Then I made use of the best advice available to me at that time (geez, wish I knew of this site then). 

I love Natalie's post that recommended for you to go back to square one and follow the advice given here. Even buying from the grocers, as I have to do, should not be so expensive if you keep it simple.

IMHO, I believe raw should be fun and simple for you. I know that if you are really ready to make this commitment, your canine family will benefit greatly.

I so hope all goes well with you, and that you soon see a great big pay off.


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## CavePaws (Jan 25, 2011)

I spend a little more than I did on kibble, but that is because I just joined our co-op here in Austin. Now I get BA prices on stuff! I would estimate I feed about 250-300 lbs a month to seven dogs and our two cats are still attempting to switch from kibble but their food is a tiny cost compared. So far I've spent around $250 on food this month, not too shabby. And I've been feeding lots of red meats too! 

But that aside, Wonderpup I feel your pain. I too fed half kibble and half raw, it was more complicated than feeding all raw is but I saw absolutely no health issues when I did it. Frankly, I don't buy into the whole cooked food on a raw diet = disaster . I think your problem lies in over feeding, and it is really hard to estimate when you're feeding both. Cut back on portions, add more bone if necessary, seriously chicken backs are your best friend right now. Take the skin off the quarters for now, lots of fat isn't always a good thing for newly switched dogs. A couple of weeks ago I had two dogs who had thrown up a bit of blood and were pooping spots of blood. I was FLIPPING out. I called the e-vet and they told me just to watch and wait it out. I did and it worked out fine within a day or two. If your dog isn't acting like he is in pain I wouldn't worry. I feel for you, I really do.

I think you should make the switch to all raw, JMO. When I did it I didn't regret it one bit. You should also look for a co-op, trust me saving pennies is better than saving nothing. I've learned that those pennies can go towards a nice new protein for my dogs down the road.

edit: Also, my dogs have been grazing on the new spring sprouts of grass outside. I think it is a novelty, but since I have eliminated virtually all carbs from their diet I'm almost positive they have a natural desire to "graze" or pick at vegetation. If your dogs aren't throwing the grass up right away I wouldn't worry about it.


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## BrownieM (Aug 30, 2010)

I have to agree with RFD. If you are having problems, you are likely doing something wrong. And I don't mean this in a bad way, because we have been there in some way at some point. 

First, I agree that you need to decide: kibble or raw? Choose one and stick with it for the sake of your dog.

Second, if you choose raw, I personally think you are feeding too much bone. If you have been feeding chicken quarters twice a day for an entire month, that would have caused major, serious constipation with my poodles. Because you are feeding poodles too, I cannot wonder if this is the case. Henry had bloody stool once and I backed off with the bone. For us, this was the answer. I actually had to introduce boneless meals and start the 80/10/10 ratio at two weeks into raw feeding in order to eliminate the rock hard stool and constipation my dogs were experiencing.


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## CavePaws (Jan 25, 2011)

So, just for the sake of clarification, since I've given her advice to start over and add more bone (chicken backs) do we say less bone at this point for Wonderpup's dogs if she continues on this path?

Wonderpup, this is what I had to do and it is a royal pain in the behind sometimes but it is worth it; I let the dogs out one by one to go potty. I checked to see what it looked like and if it was too soft I upped the bone, if it was too hard or too white right on the exit I downed the bone intake. I had to adjust the amount of bone for each dog at meal time but slowly they all came to eat pretty much the same amount. Everyone seems to be in mutual agreement that you should cut the kibble and feed all raw. I've been in your shoes and I can tell you it is so much less of a pain if you switch them to one or the other. Portion control is so much easier. I'll be honest I don't ever weigh my dogs food, they get anywhere from 1 to 2 lbs a day and make up for it by running hills and swimming/retrieving for hours on end. When you get to that point where you can feed them the ideal amount and they start looking chubby, you can weigh your options, more exercise or cut their intake. Right now I think you need to cut back on portions even if they are dropping weight. I have a dog who was 80 lbs of what looked like chub on kibble, he's still the same weight now but all that fat that was there looks like muscle now. I can testify that dogs do become slimmer on a raw diet, they take on a slightly different look, more toned. I don't know if that is what you are seeing or if you a truly seeing lost weight, but a few pounds I wouldn't worry about in the transition. If they start looking too thin, like you can see all their ribs thin, then up their intake just add more bone to their meals. You can see the ribs really easily on my two dogs Indi and Pooper and I think that is a good thing, their spine is also very easily felt. I've had people tell me that they look too thin before and others who know what an athletic dog actually looks like commend me on their body condition. A thin dog(not emaciated) is a healthier dog. So, I think you should take Natalie's advice and RFD's advice. Go back to Natalie's web page and look over the instructions. I think if you follow those meal plans you should get yourself back on the right track. Just start at square one again.


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## RawFedDogs (Jun 16, 2008)

CavePaws said:


> So, just for the sake of clarification, since I've given her advice to start over and add more bone (chicken backs) do we say less bone at this point for Wonderpup's dogs if she continues on this path?


No, I would say just less food overall. She is feeding her dogs way too much and that is what's causing the problems IMO.


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## martye (Mar 9, 2011)

Wonderpup,

I don't want to add more to the overwhelm, so I'll just say that RFD and Natalie are right, but I do have a few thoughts.
You mentioned that the dogs are grazing like mad on your lawn. I know when my guy does this he sometimes will get some grass caught in his throat and do some serious coughing. Could this be the cause? 
the other thing I've heard is if you're mixing the kibble and raw in one meal it can cause issues due
to the different digestion times for both, I think kibble takes almost 12 hours to process, raw much quicker.
Where in NW Fla? how far from Pensicola, Tallahassee, Lake City (okay thats not west), they should have more variety for buying. The other thing is NW Fla has lots of cattle farms, where do they have the cattle processed? are there any processors near you? if so you might want to check with them about buying 'scrap' or other meat in bulk.

hope this helps.
Marty


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## Ania's Mommy (Feb 8, 2009)

I 100% believe that feeding raw and kibble will likely result in tummy issues. I've seen too many instances of it happening to shrug it off.

For a dog to process kibble, it's body has to work one way (overusing many parts such as the pancreas and the kidneys) in order to breakdown species inappropriate ingredients. From start to, er, finish, this will take about 36-48 hours. Don't believe me? Feed kibble. Fast your dog. He'll still be pooing more than 36-48 hours later.

The way that a dog's body was SUPPOSED to process food is much different. Meat rots and can bring with it some bacteria. The way dog's digestive system works is to extract everything it can from the meat, bones & organs, then get the rest of it out of the body ASAP before it has a chance to rot and bring on the bacteria. THIS process takes around 24 hours. Again, fast a raw fed dog. Not much poo after about a day.

WHen you combine the two, the body tries to do both very different process at once, and Voila! Tummy upset.

SO my advise (along with cutting back on the food amount) is to completely cut out all kibble. All of it. No treats that aren't raw meat either.

I hope you stick it out! Your dogs will totally thank you if they could. Sometimes the transition just takes a little bit.

And about the grass, IT'S SPRING! If a dog were inclined to eat grass at all, now's the time they would. Baby grass=deliciousness beyond compare.


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## KittyKat (Feb 11, 2011)

I've been told meat digests much faster, but my dog threw up some chicken this morning that wasn't digested. She ate at 5pm, and she threw up at about 6am. This would mean it just sat in her stomach for about 13 hours... and there was no bone, just meat.

I would think they would digest faster, but if she was able to throw it up, then that isn't the case. =/


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## Ania's Mommy (Feb 8, 2009)

You're right. Not sure what the heck I was thinking. It does take longer than 12 hours. I don't know why I insist on replying to posts this early!! I've modified my times on my original post. Sorry about that!


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## kymgonecrazy (Oct 23, 2010)

I have this problem as well, lack of a co-op except for MPC and a few others. And the price just doesn't seem worth it when I have to add in travel expensive to meet the person to pick it up. Seems much easier to just hit a couple of the local grocers and butchers to see what they have.


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## Herzo (Feb 5, 2011)

Now you people have to stop.You are scaring me.I was so happy with myself.Yesterday I went to the next town because I have been taking my Basset to the Vets there.I made my first big score .78 for chix quarters.So I fed the Bullmastiff and Pitbull there first PMR meal, they were so happy.Marlo the bullmastiff kept looking around like is this for real, is someone going to take it away.A few chomps and down that leg went.She got the leg and Richtor got the thigh(they were fairly large I though).So tonight I'm feeding them kibble, so look what you've done to me.I am not ready to take the whole move as I don't have enough meat or variety to do it for this many dogs yet.Maybe I should just hold off before I make this half and half.

Sorry wonderdog I didn't mean to hijack.I hope you try again and it works out.I may just see how it goes for me with both and see if I have any problems so maybe I would have some words of wisdom.I split my quarters up because it was just to much I think for them to have a hole one and some kibble tonight.They seem to be fine for now.And I have to take them for a walk because they are buging me.Maybe they will poop.


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## Northwoods10 (Nov 22, 2010)

Herzo said:


> Now you people have to stop.You are scaring me.I was so happy with myself.Yesterday I went to the next town because I have been taking my Basset to the Vets there.I made my first big score .78 for chix quarters.So I fed the Bullmastiff and Pitbull there first PMR meal, they were so happy.Marlo the bullmastiff kept looking around like is this for real, is someone going to take it away.A few chomps and down that leg went.She got the leg and Richtor got the thigh(they were fairly large I though).So tonight I'm feeding them kibble, so look what you've done to me.I am not ready to take the whole move as I don't have enough meat or variety to do it for this many dogs yet.Maybe I should just hold off before I make this half and half.
> 
> Sorry wonderdog I didn't mean to hijack.I hope you try again and it works out.I may just see how it goes for me with both and see if I have any problems so maybe I would have some words of wisdom.I split my quarters up because it was just to much I think for them to have a hole one and some kibble tonight.They seem to be fine for now.And I have to take them for a walk because they are buging me.Maybe they will poop.


What are you afraid of? Feeding both kibble & raw?

It can be done, it just makes it harder to narrow down problems if you have any. Many dogs do just fine on both, but some don’t.


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## Shamrockmommy (Sep 10, 2009)

I'm in the minority... as I include veggies, dairy and grains in their diets. The frantic grass eating happens at my house as well if I don't give them pureed veggies/yogurt mix. I've been told they are looking for minerals when they graze. My PWD wouldeat the grass, roots and then take mouthfuls of dirt beneath the grass on just PMR. I think PMR is a great idea, honestly, and I'd much prefer it for the ease of feeding, but my girls were telling me something was missing. 

When I see too-skinny dogs, I add well cooked or even baked grains (oats, quinoa, brown rice) or sweet potatoes. This, along with veggies and yogurt, makes about 30% of their daily intake. The rest is RMBs and organs 2x a week. 

Diarrhea can mean overfeeding, so be aware of how much you are feeding. (around 2% of my dogs' bodyweight works well here) 

Right now, I think you should fast them for 24 hours and rest their digestive tracts. Then decide if you are goign to do kibble or raw and then go with it, not both. Then sloooowly start feeding again, with maybe half the usual amount and work up to a full feeding. 
If you can get some slippery elm powder, that will help firm things up and soothe the digestive tract too.

Again, listen to your dog. My minpin (RIP) never tolerated raw very well and ended up with cannon butt most of the time. He did great on cooked though. <shrugs>

Good luck, hth.


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## 3Musketeers (Nov 4, 2010)

Herzo said:


> Now you people have to stop.You are scaring me.I was so happy with myself.Yesterday I went to the next town because I have been taking my Basset to the Vets there.I made my first big score .78 for chix quarters.So I fed the Bullmastiff and Pitbull there first PMR meal, they were so happy.Marlo the bullmastiff kept looking around like is this for real, is someone going to take it away.A few chomps and down that leg went.She got the leg and Richtor got the thigh(they were fairly large I though).So tonight I'm feeding them kibble, so look what you've done to me.I am not ready to take the whole move as I don't have enough meat or variety to do it for this many dogs yet.Maybe I should just hold off before I make this half and half.
> 
> Sorry wonderdog I didn't mean to hijack.I hope you try again and it works out.I may just see how it goes for me with both and see if I have any problems so maybe I would have some words of wisdom.I split my quarters up because it was just to much I think for them to have a hole one and some kibble tonight.They seem to be fine for now.And I have to take them for a walk because they are buging me.Maybe they will poop.


I believe the time frame to separate meals if you do half/half is either raw in the morning and kibble a minimum of 6 hours after, or kibble in the morning and raw a minimum of 12 after.
Before I discovered this forum and went all raw, I was dong half kibble/half raw for a bit. Let's just say I learned not to mix them, the hard way.

Also, you don't need much variety at first, you can feed exclusively chicken for the first month without a problem, it's recommended to add another protein source a few weeks in, but its not exactly mandatory.



Also, for wonderdog, remember that with raw the guideline is around 2% of *ideal* body weight, if they get runny poops then feed less meals with more bone/less skin and fat. An overfed dog with runny poo will lose more weight than one that is underfed. If the opposite is true, if the poops are too white/hard, then feed less bone. You could also try scooping out the kidneys from the leg quarters and throwing them out.

For your smaller dogs, (pekes I think?) you should feed maybe only 2-4 oz per day (that is not including kibble, if you do, then half of that) to start off. If things look well and they seem to be losing too much weight, then gradually increase their portions. You don't want to end up feeding them too much to the point where they have runny poop, because, I'll say it again, it will cause them to lose even *more* weight.

Raw-fed dogs are also leaner but more muscular, you should be able to see a waist but not see the spine (regardless of breed).

For prices, look around at some of the smaller local markets, sometimes they will have specials on meats.


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## RaisingWolves (Mar 19, 2011)

kymgonecrazy said:


> I have this problem as well, lack of a co-op except for MPC and a few others. And the price just doesn't seem worth it when I have to add in travel expensive to meet the person to pick it up. Seems much easier to just hit a couple of the local grocers and butchers to see what they have.



Yeah, but I can't find goat, rabbit,tripe, or farmed deer meat at the grocery store. I'm not sure if I can get lamb hearts at the butcher, but I bought a bulk box of hearts from MPC.
MPC states their meat is all farm raised (grass fed etc.) and the owners feed their dogs this food (BTW, beautiful dogs!). They seem very passionate about what they do.:smile:
I ordered several whole chickens from them and nearly gagged to death cutting the heads off. :yuck:There was no way I as feeding heads!!! OMG! 
Anyway, their chickens average about 3lbs, and look nothing like factory chicken you buy in the store.
I can't handle the heads, and my boxer looked at me like I was a total nut case when I tried to feed him chicken with feet, so I'm back to buying chicken from the grocery store....organic is VERY expensive.


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

RaisingWolves said:


> Yeah, but I can't find goat, rabbit,tripe, or farmed deer meat at the grocery store. I'm not sure if I can get lamb hearts at the butcher, but I bought a bulk box of hearts from MPC.
> MPC states their meat is all farm raised (grass fed etc.) and the owners feed their dogs this food (BTW, beautiful dogs!). They seem very passionate about what they do.:smile:
> I ordered several whole chickens from them and nearly gagged to death cutting the heads off. :yuck:There was no way I as feeding heads!!! OMG!
> Anyway, their chickens average about 3lbs, and look nothing like factory chicken you buy in the store.
> I can't handle the heads, and my boxer looked at me like I was a total nut case when I tried to feed him chicken with feet, so I'm back to buying chicken from the grocery store....organic is VERY expensive.


if you can't afford organic, don't worry about it. not everyone is lucky enough to find grass fed, grass finished proteins...and they make do with whatever they can find and afford...if your dogs get fed chicken, turkey, pork, beef, and fish....that's fine....

consider the wolf. do you think the wolf migrated all over the world to find himself some good eatin'....yo, woofie, there be some gator in florida, let's take us a trip? or awesome, did you HEAR about the emu farm in washington state? 

if i didn't have a co op....i'd spend the money on fresh fish at the asian market...a sardine costs a dollar....chickens can be bought on sale, so can turkeys....pork is always on sale and meat at their expiration date is cheaper, too...and you want the lean tough cuts...we don't like filet mignon anyway.....

wolves are opportunistic...they eat what they eat where they live. if there isn't moose, then guess what? they don't eat it. if there are no goat farms where they are, then they don't eat goat....

personally, i know we spend too much on dog food...my honey and i...and i believe it's because they are our children, we are crazy and because we belong to a co op and there's a chinese place and a summit trading place right near where we live. and this co op buys 4400 lbs of a protein at a time.....that's a lot of members....

ya feed what you can find and afford without breaking the bank. buy a rabbit on occasion as a treat. and find friends who are hunters....: )


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## RaisingWolves (Mar 19, 2011)

My husband and I feel the same as you. Our skin children have grown (ages 22 & 28), now we have furry children. Honestly, even though we spend a lot on raw it's still cheaper than skin kids AND our fur kids are always happy to see us. :biggrin1:


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## Herzo (Feb 5, 2011)

Northwoods10 said:


> What are you afraid of? Feeding both kibble & raw?
> 
> It can be done, it just makes it harder to narrow down problems if you have any. Many dogs do just fine on both, but some don’t.


Yes I'm not ready for full raw with the bigger dogs.So I was hoping to do both for the time being.I do not feed them at the same time.Turtle the Basset has been PMR for a little over 2 months.But when I got the chix quarters for as cheap as I've seen them I thought maybe it wouldn't hurt.

I'm hoping this fall when it's hunting season I can get my father Inlaw and my husbands uncle to do a little hunting for me.I also have to talk to the Meat plant where I work in the fall and see if they will save me some lamb and beef heart and kidneys.Also some tongue.I always have made my family save the heart, tongue and liver when they butcher.We do get beef from the ranch but I can't feed most of that to the dogs my family would kill me and I'm guessing we would not get it any more.I'm not going to let the dogs have all our good grass fed beef.I guess I'm not so good of a dog owner.I did feed Turtle the soup bone meat.But we are about out any way and I don't know when we will get more.

I keep waiting for some one to clean out there freezer.I sometimes can get that.I did feed them raw chix quarter again this morning we'll see, keep your fingers crossed for me.

Oh and sorry WonderPup I think I put Wonderdog.My memory isn't what it use to be and I don't think it was ever that good.


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