# Willfully ignorant people are so frustrating...



## monkeys23 (Dec 8, 2010)

I just want to bash my head on the desk... suffice to say grain in kibble is fine and raw is bad as per many people on another forum, despite hoards of raw feeders providing many valid examples of why pmr is biologically appropriate. Its just frusting AND I have zero problem with them doing whatever they want with their own dogs and they still are all up in arms! Bah!
Tobi knows what I'm ranting about... :biggrin:


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## MissusMac (Jan 6, 2011)

Stupid is as stupid does.


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## Tobi (Mar 18, 2011)

ya... I've sent a message to Vickie there, hopefully she gets back to me i'm thinking abotu leaving that forum for good, Cynthia is a b**** (edited by PuppyPaws for language) , and she thinks she knows everything, she says that she has scientific proof that a dog is an omnivore, i ask for cited evidence she closes a thread, and gives me warnings, i repeat the information and ask her what dogs/wolves at before 1860 when the first dogfood was brought about... another retarded comment from her about "you have no evidence" it's always got to be raw feeders that provide evidence? wtf why? 

she asked for scientific proof "studies" that raw was better than kibble, i said 

Mother nature did it for thousands of years, study ended. i mean c'mon kibble's been around for 200yrs VERY MAX!!! and even then it's not like it was something that caught on right away, my grandparents fed scraps and meats that went bad come to find out.... who'd of thought. (didn't find out till i talked to my gma about my dog and she's like oh ya.. we fed them all kinds of stuff same with my dogs when iw as growing up!) :lol:
and still... "your dribble isn't proof":suspicious:


I'm about done with that forum!!! 

oh the best part... she shot down a study done by am MD simply because he wasn't a DVM!! :lol: :lol: as if vets nutritional studies were over all of our own... please.

oh ya.... this is the same [email protected]##tard that said that "dogs need grains"


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## RawFedDogs (Jun 16, 2008)

I LOVE discussions with people like this. Unless you get banned, you will prove them wrong everytime. BTW: I have been banned from more than one place because of the same discussion. :smile:



Tobi said:


> i repeat the information and ask her what dogs/wolves at before 1860 when the first dogfood was brought about... another retarded comment from her about "you have no evidence" it's always got to be raw feeders that provide evidence?


OK, your numbers are a little off here. They may be technically correct but kibble never came into widespread use in til the 1970's or so. It may have been around but very few people used it. Dogs/wolves have eaten PMR for over a million year and thrived on it. Kibble fed dogs of today are not thriving based on what you see in a vet's waiting room of today. Allergies that dogs didn't have 30 or 40 years ago. Pancreatitis was unheard of 30 or 40 years ago. IBD & IBS was unheard of 30 or 40 years ago. The inappropriate foods fed to today's dogs cause these problems and more. Obesity and diabetes were very rare 30 or 40 years ago.



> she asked for scientific proof "studies" that raw was better than kibble, i said
> 
> Mother nature did it for thousands of years, study ended. i mean c'mon kibble's been around for 200yrs VERY MAX!!! and even then it's not like it was something that caught on right away, my grandparents fed scraps and meats that went bad come to find out.... who'd of thought. (didn't find out till i talked to my gma about my dog and she's like oh ya.. we fed them all kinds of stuff same with my dogs when iw as growing up!) :lol:
> and still... "your dribble isn't proof":suspicious:


Actually your 200 years is MUCH closer 40 years. The greatest majority of people fed table scraps and canned food until that time.

*Proof a dog is a carnivore:*
There are physical charateristics that make an animal a carnivore or omnivore. A carnivore or omnivore is determined not by what he will eat when it is his only choice, rather what his body is designed to eat and digest.

1. Carnivores have large mouths as they eat other animals. Omnivores/herbivores have smaller mouths.

2. Omnivores have flat teeth in the back of their mouths. This is used to crush and mash plant material. All plant material has each cell coated with cellulose. You must mash and crush this shell to extract nutrients from the plant. Humans have these flat teeth. Carnivores don't have flat teeth. They can't get through the cellulose to get to the nutrients. Carnivore teeth are designed to kill prey(front teeth) and to rip and tear meat and crush bones(back teeth). Dogs don't have flat teeth.

3. When omnivores/herbivores chew, they move their lower jaw not only up and down but also sideways in order to crush the cellulose. Carnivores don't have the ability to move their lower jaw from side to side. Only up and down. Dogs lower jaw only moves up and down.

4. Omnivores/herbivores have an enzyme called amylaze in their salava and stomach juices. Amylaze is used to digest plant material and digestion begins in the mouth for these animals. Carnivores don't have amylaze in their salava and very little in their stomach. They don't make the enzymes necessary for digesting plant material.

5. I don't know how to explain it with words but there is a difference in the way the lower jaw is hinged in omnivores/herbivores and carnivores. Feel your own jaw bone. It begins at the joint with the skull and goes down then angles toward the front. Carnivores jaws start at the skull and go straight toward the front.

6. Carnivores have very acidic stomach juices to kill bacteria on meats and to digest bones. Omnivores/herbivores have much less acidic stomach juices and depend on fermentation in the digestion process. A dog's stomach juices are about 10 times more acidic than a humans.

7. Omnivores/herbivores have relatively long intestinal tracts. Carbs must ferment in the gut for a long time during digestion. Carnivores being meat eaters have a very short intestinal tract in order to get the meat through the body quickly before it rots. With their short intestinal tract they are not able to have carbs in the intestines long enough to digest.

8. Omnivores/herbivores chew their food into a mush before they swallow it. Digestion in an omnivore begins in the mouth. Carnivores only rip, tear, and crunch their food until it is small enough to fit down their throat. They can fit some amazingly large pieces down their throat. Much larger than an omnivore is capable of.

So there you have your biology lesson in a nutshell. There is no arguing the fact that dogs are carnivores. They have all the physical characteristics of a carnivore and *none* of the omnivores characteristics.

From David Mech's Wolves: Behavior, Ecology and Conservation (2003):

_"Wolves usually tear into the body cavity of large prey and...consume the larger internal organs, such as lungs, heart and liver. The large rumen [, which is one of the main stomach chambers in large ruminant herbivores,]...is usually punctured during removal and its contents spilled. The vegetation in the intestinal tract is of no interest to the wolves, but the stomach lining and intestinal wall are consumed, and their contents further strewn about the kill site."_-p123

_"To grow and maintain their own bodies, wolves need to ingest all the major parts of their herbivorous prey, except the plants in the digestive system." _-p124


From: Foraging and Feeding Ecology of the Gray Wolf (Canis lupus): Lessons from Yellowstone National Park, Wyoming, USA, 
Daniel R. Stahler, Douglas W. Smith and Debra S. Guernsey 

_"Wolves do not feed on the contents of the rumen; so this, along with the larger unbreakable bones and some of the hide, are often the only things remaining when wolves and associated scavengers are done."_





> oh the best part... she shot down a study done by am MD simply because he wasn't a DVM!! :lol: :lol: as if vets nutritional studies were over all of our own... please.


A scientific studiy is a scientific study no matter who does it if they stick to sound scientific principles. Even if it's a 2nd grader.

Now go back and jump on her. :biggrin:

*ETA: * if she wants more, tell her to get her all knowing a$$ over here and I'll be glad to discuss it further with her. :biggrin:


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## Scarlett_O' (May 19, 2011)

I had the same thing happen to me on another forum when I asked someone what out of the SD's ingredient list a dog would in the natural be eating(I quoted the ingredient list after this person said "my family uses SD my vet uses SD if it was that bad everyone would not use it.") I had someone else say to said SD feeder: "Dont let them get to you..one thing you need to learn right away about these forums is there are going to be people on here that think they know everything about everything and nothing you are doing will ever be right unless its their way...just blow it off..do your research and whats right for your pup. Let the know it all's say what they want to. never let them know they got to you or they win" UM.....ya I was trying to help said SD feeder do what is right by their pup, by NOT feeding SD!!!

YA, I am HAPPILY going back to that thread waiting for a reply!HAHAHAHAHAHAHA


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## monkeys23 (Dec 8, 2010)

Good for you Tobi. They are pretty cliquish there... we might all get banned, lol. Too bad, there are a few people I'm good friends with who aren't in that disaster of a thread. Oh well, whatever.

I heart you RFD, just saying.


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## TuckersMom (Apr 27, 2011)

I'm curious now! What forum are you talking about?


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## RachelsaurusRexU (Sep 4, 2010)

I want to see this thread! Just for hahas.


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## Tobi (Mar 18, 2011)

Oh man bill, I spent the time using all that information on my first posts, i was actually going by the information, which is pretty close to what you're saying from this http://www.orijen.ca/orijen/ORIJEN_White_paper.pdf

She ended up deleting my posts and saying that one of the sources they list is an MD and that it wasn't accurate. She also states that dogs ARE NOT wolves... there is no getting through to this idiot... 

I've also cited this as a source as well, and she still won't have it, she just doesn't respond to anything she can't answer.
2. Canid Genetics

I had two huge posts full of just about everything you had and her response was simply.

show me proof, as if biological differences between herbivors omnivors and carnivores wasn't proof enough, she wants a 2 dog study one kibble fed one raw fed is what it seems like... and it just will never happen.. I told her look at nature and see how you should be feeding.

here is one of the MANY MANY MANY threads in question there are dozens that end up the same way.
http://www.pitbull-chat.com/showthread.php?89019-anyone-feed-whole-prey-animals

here is the thread that i got my posts deleted off of, and you can see the #20 post... the most ignorant of all of them.
http://www.pitbull-chat.com/showthread.php?88462-Ol-Roy&p=975615#post975615


Basically there is jut no getting through to some, she feeds her dogs 6 different foods and thinks hey thats okay... and just won't see it any other way, then the fact that she is a moderator makes it hell on people wanting to have a discussion on something she doesn't agree with.


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## Scarlett_O' (May 19, 2011)

Tobi Im not even half way thru either of those post, but this made me LOL "Sorry the actual myth is that they are carnivores."


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## RachelsaurusRexU (Sep 4, 2010)

Good laughs. That's why I'm not on pit bull forums. It seems like most of the members on pit bull forums are snooty, ignorant douche lords who think their shiz smells like roses.


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## Tobi (Mar 18, 2011)

I reposted everything i think that i had in the other posts... it was a long one!! :lol:

I'd just like to know where this chick is coming from aside from crazy ville!!! Bill i was just going off of the James spratts food which was about 1860's ish, i know actually now that i've been asking around, older folks, my grandparents their friends etc they've all fed raw! lol before the crazy antibacterial times. But ya you're right back in the 30s was the first meat meal one and then really exploded in the 70's.... it's crazy to think people think they know better than millions of years of evolution, you would think we would learn by now.


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## naturalfeddogs (Jan 6, 2011)

MissusMac said:


> Stupid is as stupid does.


and stupid can't be fixed.


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## SerenityFL (Sep 28, 2010)

Sometimes RawFedDogs just makes me grin from ear to ear. Bam! Get 'em!

And RachelsaurusRexU: I'm so stealing, "douche lords". LOL! That's awesome.


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## RawFedDogs (Jun 16, 2008)

Tobi said:


> Oh man bill, I spent the time using all that information on my first posts, i was actually going by the information, which is pretty close to what you're saying from this http://www.orijen.ca/orijen/ORIJEN_White_paper.pdf


Ok, then turn the tables on her. Ask her what there is physically about a dog that makes her think it's an omnivore. Ask her where she gets her information that dogs are not wolves. Ask her the differences.

_"The English word dog, in common usage, refers to the domestic pet dog, Canis lupus familiaris. The species was originally classified as Canis familiaris and Canis familiarus domesticus by Linnaeus in 1758.[10] In 1993, dogs were reclassified as a subspecies of the gray wolf, Canis lupus, by the Smithsonian Institution and the American Society of Mammalogists."_
Dog - New World Encyclopedia

These are the people whose job it is to decide exactly what each animal is. They say dogs are wolves. If they are not wolves, where did they come from? DNA evidence proves that dogs are wolves and wolves bred with nothing else to create dogs. Wolves breeding wolves created dogs. 



> She ended up deleting my posts and saying that one of the sources they list is an MD and that it wasn't accurate. She also states that dogs ARE NOT wolves... there is no getting through to this idiot...


Ain't it hell when moderators pull their power to win arguments? :smile:

You could also ask her to find you a nutritionist who doesn't work for a dog food company who will say that highly processed mixtures of foods is healthier than fresh whole foods.


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## Tobi (Mar 18, 2011)

Ya i'm tellin ya... she didn't have much else to say when i finally reposted my originals with the new information you listed for me about the wolves with the contents of the animals, she continued on the path of i want proof, such as the test that they ran with the 22 cats years ago and one of the cats died from a taurine deficiency on raw... 

I think this is the type of person that wants to do the best for her pets but she works for a vet and she's scared to hell about anything her vet doesn't agree with. I beat the wolf one to death with her!! she never openly argues any points i try to make she just states she wants statistics, and i just tell her i want hers! she says she attended a nutrition thing last weekend and that she will send me all her information she got about nutritionist from there etc etc, so i'm goin to hold her to it and post it up here when i get it :biggrin: that way we can pick it apart piece by piece! I asked her if it was Purina that put on the conference and she didn't answer!!!! ><

she's also on the parasite, and salmonella boat too... she's either hopeless, or a miracle raw convert one day! :lol:


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## RachelsaurusRexU (Sep 4, 2010)

SerenityFL said:


> And RachelsaurusRexU: I'm so stealing, "douche lords". LOL! That's awesome.


Lolz, do it up! It's far too underused in my opinion.


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

actually, bill, it was two brothers in england who started a dehydrated food for dogs, around the 1860s.....if i remember correctly.....

stepping back into the shadows...

personally, though, before i fade away, i'd use that orijen white paper....a kibble company advocating raw? does it get any better than that?


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

i have to correct myself here.....it was one guy, an american living in england, who started commercial dog food....name of spratt

- Terrierman's Daily Dose -

before that, i read that bread dipped in curdled milk was given to hunting dogs. i read that a while back, so i don't remember where i read it.....take it with a grain of salt


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## monkeys23 (Dec 8, 2010)

What kills me is how obvious it is if you just open their mouths and look at their teeth... those aren't omnivore teeth yo.

I haven't been back to those threads. I was too irritiated.


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## CavePaws (Jan 25, 2011)

WHAT THE HELL. Pardon my french but seriously...Cliffdog supports game bred dogs fighting? Really. Sorry but anyone who supports blood sports like that just to keep APBT lines true to their original standard is a loser who needs to get a life.


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## RachelsaurusRexU (Sep 4, 2010)

CavePaws said:


> WHAT THE HELL. Pardon my french but seriously...Cliffdog supports game bred dogs fighting? Really. Sorry but anyone who supports blood sports like that just to keep APBT lines true to their original standard is a loser who needs to get a life.


Yikes. I missed that part. Where does he say that?


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## CavePaws (Jan 25, 2011)

> (Quote Originally Posted by crazybully View Post)
> OT a bit, but what do you guys think about hare coursing? i love lure coursing as a sport and game, and plan to get a course set, so many are against hare coursing (rightfully so)... IMO i'm not for it but i don't think its... the worst thing there is as the hare has a pretty decent chance of getting away too...
> 
> Now don't misunderstand me, i don't like torture or animal cruelty, i'm vehemently against game pit sports, (cockfighting, dog fighting) but this is about as natural as it gets it's pure drive and prey driven.(/end quote by crazybully)
> ...


Written by cliffdog. Not against pit sport...Wow, heartless POS. :/ Even goes so far as to add in lmao about it...Rot and burn is all I have to say.


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## Tobi (Mar 18, 2011)

CavePaws said:


> Written by cliffdog. Not against pit sport...Wow, heartless POS. :/ Even goes so far as to add in lmao about it...Rot and burn is all I have to say.


Oh wow, i completely missed his post on that  

I hope he was being sarcastic.


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## RachelsaurusRexU (Sep 4, 2010)

Yeah, I completely missed that too. I really hope that was a freaking joke. All that game bred and chained dog talk pisses me off enough as it is. 

Have I mentioned that I don't like pit bull forums?


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## Caty M (Aug 13, 2010)

Same cliffdog that comes here?

You mean dogs don't need grains, and pet food manufacturers have been lying to me all this time? :wink:


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## lily (May 16, 2011)

excellent thread,amazing how people look at you like youve sprouted a second head when you mention that you give your dog actual raw meat,what no kibble?what no cooking?and especially when you mention bones !!!!,the amount of people who are gobsmacked when bones are mentioned,i too would never of dreamed that 3 months ago i would be feeding my bulldog raw meat and bones ,always led to believe that bulldogs cannot handle raw meat and especially not bones!!!,delicate little babies NOT,i dont want to own a pampered couch potato putting expensive topping on expensive kibble just to get my dog to at least sniff it never mind eat it,but we are brainwashed into thinking there is no alternative to kibble or smelly canned food and i would say our dogs are as fit as a butchers dog lol,karen


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## CavePaws (Jan 25, 2011)

I'm right there with you Rachel...I don't like them either. A lot of breed forums royally piss me off but it's the attitude of people who promote blood sports that REALLY makes me mad.


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## Tobi (Mar 18, 2011)

CavePaws said:


> I'm right there with you Rachel...I don't like them either. A lot of breed forums royally piss me off but it's the attitude of people who promote blood sports that REALLY makes me mad.


More and more the longer i'm in forums like this i agree with you two. I'm on another EBT forum that doesn't have much traffic but they are all more ore less responsible people... 

This attitude bugs me too, It's wierd how forums like this bring out the "i want to bulk up my 8 month old pit" threads... too many of them it's crazy.


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## Mike916 (Apr 28, 2011)

yea im a part of a lot of forums and they all have "clicks" and different attitudes/people that bother me. thats y i just mainly skim through and try and absorb as much info as possible. and it is annoying to hear people who do no research and have no idea what they are speaking of tell you what you should be doing. everytime someone comments on how much better my dogs/coats look and i tell them i started feeding raw. i all of a sudden have no idea what im doing. they start talking to me about cholesterol... cholesterol really? you obviously have no idea what you are talking about and i used to get mad but now i just realize where its coming from and move on its not worth it. some girl came up to me at a bbq the other day and said "i heard you feed raw well a child was just mauled by a dog because the owner fed it raw meat i hope you dont plan on having kids anytime soon". and then proceeded to tell me about pitbulls having lock jaw and that it is true. so instead of ruining my day and ripping into her about facts that would not even be heard. i just said"thanks for the info i didnt know that" and kept drinking my beer. its not worth it


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

tobi, i started reading that thread...got to about page eight..and i thought i should get a medal or at least dessert for getting that far..
who IS this super mod.....gnarly, snarly person it is....to say the least....talks about greyhounds, as if she knows their genetics only to be disproved.

cliffdog, if you're hangin' around here...i think you were doing great until you let loose with how you let your dog indulge in his inner wolf and also that you're okay with pit sports....shame...

and then i stopped reading.


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## Tobi (Mar 18, 2011)

ya... that thread... like MANY of them over there just get whacked out dessert would be nice!... The Super mod in question i love how you put it, i called her Snarky in a pm (after she infracted me) and she said no i'm just very well informed! :lol: and i state facts... sure ya do..


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

Mike916 said:


> yea im a part of a lot of forums and they all have "clicks" and different attitudes/people that bother me. thats y i just mainly skim through and try and absorb as much info as possible. and it is annoying to hear people who do no research and have no idea what they are speaking of tell you what you should be doing. everytime someone comments on how much better my dogs/coats look and i tell them i started feeding raw. i all of a sudden have no idea what im doing. they start talking to me about cholesterol... cholesterol really? you obviously have no idea what you are talking about and i used to get mad but now i just realize where its coming from and move on its not worth it. some girl came up to me at a bbq the other day and said "i heard you feed raw well a child was just mauled by a dog because the owner fed it raw meat i hope you dont plan on having kids anytime soon". and then proceeded to tell me about pitbulls having lock jaw and that it is true. so instead of ruining my day and ripping into her about facts that would not even be heard. i just said"thanks for the info i didnt know that" and kept drinking my beer. its not worth it


what about cholesterol? the dog or yours?

well, of course children are prey for animals....my dogs get them at least twice a week. the younger the better....puhleeze. (yes, this is sarcasm.)


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

Tobi said:


> ya... that thread... like MANY of them over there just get whacked out dessert would be nice!... The Super mod in question i love how you put it, i called her Snarky in a pm (after she infracted me) and she said no i'm just very well informed! :lol: and i state facts... sure ya do..


well informed? SHE is well informed? 

oh please invite her over here....and let's educate her.....please, please?


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## CavePaws (Jan 25, 2011)

magicre said:


> well informed? SHE is well informed?
> 
> oh please invite her over here....and let's educate her.....please, please?


It'd be quite the show! Lol, I can only imagine getting her out of her "territory" and over here where she would need to actually back herself up without the help of a little title near her username and avatar.


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## SerenityFL (Sep 28, 2010)

First of all, people like that would never venture over because they cannot stand to have anyone question their "authority" on the issue. They'll say the same, "it's not worth it".

Second, I cannot stand people sometimes. I cannot stand ignorant people. Here is what I consider ignorant:

You have two people.

One person has never bothered to even think about their dog's diet, feeds store bought kibble, but has an open mind to things they are being told. With that information they receive, they go and do as much research as they can to find the facts. They then, based on those FACTS, make their decision on what to feed their dog in the future. Nonetheless, they continue to remain open to new ideas.

The other person hears a lot of stuff, doesn't research anything just goes along with what some people say because they "seem" to know what they are talking about and feeds their dogs based on what some random people told them on the internets. When faced with evidence, they do not wish to discuss, throw out every strawman argument, red herring and all other diversion tactics they can come up with to avoid having to admit they were wrong and that they didn't research a damn thing. Their mind is closed because "Tom, Dick and Harry" over there told them something different from what you are offering.

The second person is the ignorant person. 

It is extremely difficult for some people to admit that they relied solely on a person's word and did not look anything up because they have to admit that they were wrong and they have to admit to everyone including themselves that they do not have a good judge of character. It's way too much for some people to bear so they stick their heads in the sand and call you a trouble making instigator. And oh, why don't you provide me some evidence even though I'm the jerk that started in on you telling you that what you said was wrong...but YOU provide the facts for me...in other words, they also have no clue how to debate a thing.

They are ignorant, lazy, arrogant and, frankly, stupid. You have two choices: Confront them all the way to the end. Choose to ignore them.

I actually prefer the confrontation not because I like confrontation but because I am sick and tired of uneducated, ignorant, arrogant ****** being the only ones talking and continuing to spread the misinformation.


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## Dude and Bucks Mamma (May 14, 2011)

I don't get some people. I toyed with the raw idea in and out for a few years before actually committing last week, not because I questioned whether my dogs would be ok eating it, but because I was afraid I wouldn't be able to do it right. I was afraid that it would be too hard.

Now that I am understanding how to do it (and learning lots as I go) I can't believe I didn't do this sooner!


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## doggoblin (Jun 6, 2011)

OK.. my first ever post here,

I'm currently doing research into raw feeding for my 2, soon to be 3 dogs and as a result I have seen quite a lot which makes me frustrated on both sides of the "to raw or not" discussion. 

One of the interesting things mentioned in Science-Based Medicine » Raw Meat and Bone Diets for Dogs: It is that wolves live longer when fed dog food. The article references:
# Waddell W. Nutrition. In: Red Wolf Husbandry Manual Guidelines for Captive Management. Red Wolf SSP Management Group American Association of Zoos and Aquariums. 1998.
# Newton K. Nutrition. In: Mexican Wolf Husbandry Manual. Mexican Wolf SSP Management Group. American Association of Zoos and Aquariums. 1995.
# Allen ME. Maned wolf nutritional management. In: Husbandry Manual for the Maned Wolf Chrysocyon brachyurus. N.B. Fletchall, M. Rodden and S. Taylor, Eds. American Association of Zoos and Aquariums. 1995.

It's interesting to note however in the majority of the world, wolves in captivity are fed more according to the PMR model... European grey wolf - All - Meet the animals - ZSL Whipsnade Zoo - ZSL. If things were clear cut you would think all zoos would be feeding wolves dog food not just in America. I live near Osnabrück, (Germany) and will try to ask a few questions of the zoo there which I know also has wolves. I have already emailed Whipsnade zoo in the U.K asking what their opinion is and if they know of any studies. Not expecting any answer but thought it would be an interesting approach as I know I can browse probably for years getting different, often contradictory information. 

I know one of the major reasons for looking up raw feeding were images of dental decay in dogs and cats teeth, with and without raw feeding and that is one thing I don't hear any argument about.

Edit: intro deleted and new one posted in introduction section.


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## monkeys23 (Dec 8, 2010)

Same here, I knew it was my eventual goal when I first adopted Lily but stuck with really good kibble for cost and space reasons... Now that I've started I'm like and why didn't I just do this to start??


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## Cliffdog (Dec 30, 2010)

Cynthia is such a PITA. I've been working with dogs all my life; sure I'm young, but I don't know my stuff for that reason? "Get some experience"? What a turd. None of the kibble feeders/veggie feeders there are willing to listen. I normally don't take these arguments personally but when she called my knowledge into question because I'm younger than her, that seemed pretty personal to me.


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## CavePaws (Jan 25, 2011)

Cliffdog said:


> Cynthia is such a PITA. I've been working with dogs all my life; sure I'm young, but I don't know my stuff for that reason? "Get some experience"? What a turd. None of the kibble feeders/veggie feeders there are willing to listen. I normally don't take these arguments personally but when she called my knowledge into question because I'm younger than her, that seemed pretty personal to me.


So, Cliffdog, would you like to impart upon me the knowledge of why exactly you think pit sports like dog fighting are acceptable?


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## Cliffdog (Dec 30, 2010)

Because it doesn't concern my dogs so it's none of my business.


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## RachelsaurusRexU (Sep 4, 2010)

You've GOT to be f*cking kidding me.


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## nortknee (May 5, 2011)

Cliffdog said:


> Because it doesn't concern my dogs so it's none of my business.


O.O...

Seriously?

That has to be the most back-assward response I've ever read.

So, you're alright with people profiting from torturing animals, as long as they aren't yours?
Are you good with puppy mills too, while we're on the subject on $h!t that shouldn't even be a question in terms of canine respect/responsbility?

Unbelievable...

ETA: It's people like you, who turn a blind eye because it's "none of your business", that continue to allow this sort of crap to proliferate...if you aren't part of the answer, you're part of the cause. Shame on you.


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## Tobi (Mar 18, 2011)

Cliffdog said:


> Because it doesn't concern my dogs so it's none of my business.


:twitch::twitch::twitch:


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## Cliffdog (Dec 30, 2010)

I don't believe in forcing my morals on other people. I don't think pit sport is as cruel as people make it out to be via propaganda. Yes, dogs get hurt, so I stay away from all of that. But my grandfather raced greyhounds for a long time. It was his love and his passion. There are people who think it's wrong, and if they had been allowed to force their morals on others, like with pit sport, racing would be illegal.

I am against BYBs, puppy mills, breeding untitled individuals, and so forth. Both my dogs are from rescue situations. I donate to my local shelter.

But whether or not pit sport is cruel is a question of morality that should lie on each individual person. My personal moral decision has been made up and frankly it's not harming anyone so I don't feel the need to justify it. I was not aware that this was the topic at hand. I guess that's what I get for commenting without reading anything except the first post.


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## nortknee (May 5, 2011)

Hmm...gambling on a race and a dog's life are two TOTALLY different subjects. Really.

Morality doesn't have anything to do with it. MORTALITY does.


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## RachelsaurusRexU (Sep 4, 2010)

Wait.... Did you SERIOUSLY just say that dog fighting is not as cruel as people make it out to be?!?!


































What about drowning, shooting, beating to death and electrocuting losers? Nope, not cruel at all! Everyone should do it.


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## Tobi (Mar 18, 2011)

Not to mention the fact the often times they use bait dogs, which are generally very good dogs, they don't fight back and just be slaughtered for the training of their pit dog... Which looks about like the first pic Rachel posted.

Dog racing, sure some dogs are probably hurt, i'm sure that is a fact of racing, but it isn't intentional, it is a form of entertainment, those dogs LOVE to run, and chase, they wouldn't do it if they didn't want to, they are sight hounds after prey is what it comes down to. I mean calling them one in the same is a slippery slope, what about horse racing?


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## Cliffdog (Dec 30, 2010)

You should probably post a thread with your concerns on the other forum, I'm sure the folks there will be happy to point out the untruths in your post. But like I said, I don't feel the need to justify myself about my _personal moral decision_, and wouldn't have posted here if I'd read that we were talking about that subject. My bad for only reading the first post.


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## nortknee (May 5, 2011)

/fumes :mad2:

That is SO not the point...you yourself have stated what a bunch of idiots frequent that forum. Why in God's name would you believe ANYTHING they tell you, without doing your own research?!

You say you donate to your local shelter.
Have you ever volunteered there? Have you ever seen the dogs that go through, especially since you ARE from Mobile, which happens to be a HUGE hub for dog fighting...
Just go in there and ask if they've had any bullies pass through in the last few days/weeks/months, and ask what their condition was...or if they were adoptable.

The answers are your proof that it really IS as bad as people make it out to be.


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

Cliffdog said:


> Because it doesn't concern my dogs so it's none of my business.


i hope, with all my heart, that your dog, one day, doesn't get lost and then found by these 'none of your business people'.

i really do.

i hope, with all my heart, that your dog doesn't break leash and run and then is caught up by one of these 'not your concern' people.


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## tem_sat (Jun 20, 2010)

Am I incorrect here regarding Alabama state law?



> This Alabama statute constitutes the state's dogfighting law. Under the law, it is a class C felony for any person to own, possess, keep or train any dog with the intent that such dog shall be engaged in an exhibition of fighting with another dog; for amusement or gain, to cause any dog to fight with another dog, or cause any dogs to injure each other; or to permit any of the above acts. The law also makes it a class C felony to knowingly be present or be a spectator at dogfights.


See: Alabama Dogfighting Statute


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## nortknee (May 5, 2011)

tem_sat said:


> Am I incorrect here regarding Alabama state law?
> 
> 
> 
> See: Alabama Dogfighting Statute


Looks right to me...too bad a Class C Felony is practically nothing (lowest class of a felony charge) in terms of jail time. Most Class C felons spend a year in jail, or sometimes just pay a fine. And then start all over again.


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## RachelsaurusRexU (Sep 4, 2010)

Cliffdog said:


> You should probably post a thread with your concerns on the other forum, I'm sure the folks there will be happy to point out the untruths in your post. But like I said, I don't feel the need to justify myself about my _personal moral decision_, and wouldn't have posted here if I'd read that we were talking about that subject. My bad for only reading the first post.


I'm sorry, but I'm sure as hell not going to take the word of a bunch of ignorant pricks who think it's acceptable to keep their dogs on heavy chains all day, use rape stands, and brag about their dogs tearing other animals to shreds. I've said it before and I'll say it again...there's a reason I don't frequent those pit bull forums. It's because 90% of those d bags make me effing ILL.


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## CavePaws (Jan 25, 2011)

You are a really sad example of a human and dog owner, cliffdog. you're part of the problem and its attitudes like yours that make animal abuse acceptable to stupid, cruel people who are so devoid of emotion they can stand to watch dogs they raise die a horrible death.


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## RawFedDogs (Jun 16, 2008)

OK, this is WAY WAY off topic for this thread and it's going to stop here. If you want to go back to the original topic of raw vs kibble then go right ahead and post. Otherwise, I don't think there is any more to say about the dog fighting subject. This has deteriorated into personal attacks and won't be tolerated ... even if I agree with you.


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## Dude and Bucks Mamma (May 14, 2011)

UGH! I read both of those and commented on the open one. I am Bluetick Mama on there, if anyone wants to know. I don't understand how she can be that way and still be allowed to be a mod! 

How can anyone think that dogs are meant to eat something that didn't exist for most of the SPECIES' existence! 

And I love the way she closed the second thread. "If you want to debate raw"... The OP asked about dog food and that is our dog food...


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