# Anyone tried Wysong Epigen?



## DaViking (Sep 27, 2011)

Has anyone here tried feeding Wysong Epigen? 60%/11% 489Kcal/cup starch free.

Chicken
Chicken Meal
Chicken Giblets
Vegetable Protein (consisting of one or more of the following: Potato Protein, Rice Protein, Corn Protein, Wheat Protein)
Poultry Fat


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## Unosmom (May 3, 2009)

While I think protein is good, I have mixed feelings about high protein and personally would not feed anything more then 38% due to several people having dogs with elevated liver enzyme levels after switching to high protein like evo. I think the logic behind it is that raw diet is high protein(or all protein), but its also 80% water which is not present in the kibble. I dont know why anyone would want to feed 60% protein. 
Also how much of that protein comes from vegetable vs meat? most likely more then half.


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## Caty M (Aug 13, 2010)

If it is starch free why are they adding the vegetable proteins? It seems like a good kibble at first glance but I don't have a full ingredient list....


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## Unosmom (May 3, 2009)

Ingredients: Organic Chicken, Chicken Meal, Chicken Giblets, Vegetable Protein (consisting of one or more of the following: Potato Protein, Rice Protein, Corn Protein, Wheat Protein), Poultry Fat (preserved with mixed Tocopherols as a source of Vitamin E), Eggs, Yogurt, Flax Seed, Apple, Beet Pulp, Plums, Inulin, Dried Wheat Grass Powder, Dried Barley Grass Powder, Krill Oil, Dried Kelp, Taurine, Oregano Extract, Sage Extract, Rosemary Extract, Direct-Fed Microorganisms (Bacillus subtilis, Enterococcus faecium, Lactobacillus plantarum, Lactococcus lactis, Lactobacillus casei, Lactobacillus acidophilus, Lactobacillus lactis), Ascorbic Acid, Zinc Proteinate, Iron Proteinate, Vitamin E Supplement, Niacin Supplement, Manganese Proteinate, Calcium Pantothenate, Thiamine Mononitrate, Copper Proteinate, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride, Riboflavin Supplement, Vitamin A Acetate, Folic Acid, Biotin, Vitamin B12 Supplement, Vitamin D3 Supplement.


Epigen™ Fish Formula Ingredients: Fish Meal, Pea Protein, Chicken Fat (preserved with mixed Tocopherols as a source of Vitamin E), Apple (source of soluble fiber), Beet Pulp (source of prebiotics), Plums (antioxidant source), Inulin (prebiotic), Blueberries (antioxidant source), Tomato (source of lutein), Taurine (amino acid), Oregano Extract (antioxidant source), Sage Extract (antioxidant source), Rosemary Extract (antioxidant source), Probiotic Microorganisms (Bacillus subtilis, Enterococcus faecium, Lactobacillus plantarum, Lactococcus lactis, Lactobacillus casei, Lactobacillus acidophilus, Lactobacillus lactis), Ascorbic Acid, Zinc Proteinate, Iron Proteinate, Vitamin E Supplement, Niacin Supplement, Manganese Proteinate, Calcium Pantothenate, Thiamine Mononitrate, Copper Proteinate, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride, Riboflavin Supplement, Vitamin A Acetate, Folic Acid, Biotin, Vitamin B12 Supplement, Vitamin D3 Supplement.

Epigen™ Venison Formula Ingredients: Venison Meal, Potato Protein, Chicken Fat (preserved with mixed Tocopherols as a source of Vitamin E), Apple (source of soluble fiber), Beet Pulp (prebiotic source), Plums (source of antioxidants), Blueberries (source of antioxidants), Inulin (prebiotic), Krill Oil (source of omega-3 fatty acids), Taurine (amino acid), Oregano Extract (antioxidant), Sage Extract (antioxidant), Rosemary Extract (antioxidant), Probiotic Microorganisms (Bacillus subtilis, Enterococcus faecium, Lactobacillus plantarum, Lactococcus lactis, Lactobacillus casei, Lactobacillus acidophilus, Lactobacillus lactis), Ascorbic Acid, Zinc Proteinate, Iron Proteinate, Vitamin E Supplement, Niacin Supplement, Manganese Proteinate, Calcium Pantothenate, Thiamine Mononitrate, Copper Proteinate, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride, Riboflavin Supplement, Vitamin A Acetate, Folic Acid, Biotin, Vitamin B12 Supplement, Vitamin D3 Supplement.


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## Caty M (Aug 13, 2010)

Actually now that I see the ingredients, I am not so sure it's that great. A 60% protein food isn't good if the majority of the protein comes from plant material... and I'm assuming that having vegetable protein CONSIDERABLY boosts the protein content in the food. It is not needed.


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## whiteleo (Sep 7, 2008)

And Beet Pulp to boot, not something I would feed with this in it.


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## DaViking (Sep 27, 2011)

Unosmom said:


> While I think protein is good, I have mixed feelings about high protein and personally would not feed anything more then 38% due to several people having dogs with elevated liver enzyme levels after switching to high protein like evo. I think the logic behind it is that raw diet is high protein(or all protein), but its also 80% water which is not present in the kibble. I dont know why anyone would want to feed 60% protein.
> Also how much of that protein comes from vegetable vs meat? most likely more then half.


How was the water intake of those dogs in general? Where they fed dry kibbles? Their level of activity?
I too would like to know how much of this is coming from vegetable protein. I'll shoot them an email to see if they care to answer.



whiteleo said:


> And Beet Pulp to boot, not something I would feed with this in it.


The amounts of digestible sugar originating from beet pulp is miniscule. It is an aid in the development of beneficial bacteria cultures. Sure, it's not a must-have ingredient but it do play a role used in "correct" amounts. Correct as in not primarily used as a filler and/or binder.


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## DaViking (Sep 27, 2011)

Caty M said:


> and I'm assuming that having vegetable protein CONSIDERABLY boosts the protein content in the food. It is not needed.


Yes it does boost the levels. Question is how much once the list is rearranged, I've emailed them.
In what way do you mean it is not needed? If you mean it is because they are vegetables/grains you can pretty much play Jack in the box in every thread here in the dry/kibble section saying the very same thing.


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## Porphyria (Jul 13, 2011)

I was one of those people whose dogs had high liver enzymes on high protein food (Orijen). Water intake seemed about average. His energy/activity level is low-moderate. After I switched to moderate protein foods, his liver enzymes went back to normal. I have since started supplementing with canned food and raw eggs for added meat and moisture, though even on dry alone his enzymes were normal on moderate protein foods. Kibble is generally such a dry product; I think_ so_ much protein in such a dry form, even when supplemented with more water-inclusive foods, has the potential to put a lot of stress on the liver and kidneys. I'm also not too crazy about the wheat and corn that make up the vegetable protein, and the fact that we have no way of knowing exactly how much of the veg. protein is made up of wheat and corn. I also agree with the posts about vegetables boosting the protein...most people who feed high protein foods do so because the meat content is higher. I don't see the benefit of that much protein when the meat content probably isn't any higher than any other food. Definitely let us know what the company says about how much protein comes from meat and how much comes from the veg protein.


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## DaViking (Sep 27, 2011)

Porphyria said:


> I was one of those people whose dogs had high liver enzymes on high protein food (Orijen). Water intake seemed about average. His energy/activity level is low-moderate. After I switched to moderate protein foods, his liver enzymes went back to normal. I have since started supplementing with canned food and raw eggs for added meat and moisture, though even on dry alone his enzymes were normal on moderate protein foods. Kibble is generally such a dry product; I think_ so_ much protein in such a dry form, even when supplemented with more water-inclusive foods, has the potential to put a lot of stress on the liver and kidneys.


There is a lot of undocumented "boosters" in form of minerals, amino acids, vitamins and other inclusions going into dog food these days. Orijen is def no exception. They have a separate section for "Botanicals" :tinfoil3: I say undocumented because there are very few studies that show any benefits for the dog. It's mostly based on theory. Not even pre/probiotics have any serious research behind it. Personally I don't think a 38% protein kibble fed wet would pose a risk to the average dog liver, provided the energy outtake is reasonably matched with the calorie intake these foods provide. Overweight, obesity and canine diabetes can affect liver enzymes count. Anyways, it's hard to tell what was the case for your dog, might be the protein after all, no one knows. The important thing is that he reads normal on the current food


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## DaViking (Sep 27, 2011)

I got an answer from Jenni at Wysong today.

"Approximately 70% of the protein is from the meat and 30% from the vegetables in the Epigen™."


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