# Could going raw fix these issues?



## meggels (May 30, 2010)

Hi everyone.

I brought my ten month old frenchie Murph into the vet yesterday to be neutered. 

Everything went well, except they found some things on him while he was under.

1) They said his coat/skin is incredibly dry/flakey. I knew this already and have been giving him a tsp of salmon oil each night at dinnertime. It's been 1-2 months since I've started this. 

2) He had a pretty bad yeast AND bacterial infection in BOTH ears. This is so disheartening, as just about 2 months ago, he had a bad yeast infection in one of his ears (can't remember which one). 


He's always licking/nibbling his paws, and they look red and ouchy. 

I just started him on California Natural grain free (lamb formula) two days ago, so I know it's too soon to see any improvements, but these issues seem like it might be a good idea to try raw. I just don't want my bud to be itchy and miserable his whole life  

Premade raw is the only option I can really do right now. I know it's not ideal, but it's what I can deal with right now. Any suggestions on best premade raw? I was gonna look into the Nature's Variety line. 

Do you think that these issues of his could be solved by a raw diet? I know raw diets are often said to be miracle workers and can clear up a lot of issues, so I am willing to try it with my little guy. I know frenchies can be prone to these issues to begin with, but I want Murph to have the best life possible.

Also, on a sidenote, the vet tech said that they questioned whether it might be reaction to flea bites, even though they didn't find any fleas or flea dirt on him. She suggested I get a good flea and tick preventative, I'm sure she meant the chemical ones they sell. I have not used one on Murph because again, frenchies are sensitive to everything, and he'd be the one to get a bad reaction to it. He lost hair all around his face and eyes when he got the rabies vaccine, so I'm afraid to use any chemicals directly on his skin. 

What are some good natural preventatives? I know some people have said good things about the bug off garlic that you sprinkle on their food. I also have a natural spray that I got at the holistic pet food store that smells like cinnamon lol. I could use that, it's just a bit of a pain and gets all wet. But I'm willing to keep up on it if I have to! I really don't want to use Advantix or Frontline on him.


----------



## xxshaelxx (Mar 8, 2010)

Going raw could definitely fix those problems. XD I know that a big plus about raw is the skin and coat. I know there was someone on here with a dog that was loosing fur, had horrible skin issues and they started him on raw, and now he's got a great coat! And there was someone else who had issues with bacterial infections in the ears, and raw fixed that up right as well.


----------



## DaneMama (Jun 27, 2008)

I'm 99% sure that switching to raw will fix the problems. I had similar issues with my Emmy before raw and I haven't seen an issue in nearly two years. If you remove yeast from his diet it will greatly cut down on the yeasty ear infections (secondary bacterial infection). 

Premade raw patties are expensive and come with a bunch of stuff your dog doesn't need. BUT they are a step in the direction. Why not try feeding small, easy cuts of meat?chicken wings and drummies would be great for him, just remove the skin, excess fat and whack with a hammer a bit in the beginning. It might be $2-5 per pound CHEAPER to feed this way. I remember looking at natures variety once and they have the exact same turkey necks that we feed but cost nearly $8 per pound and we get them for $.70 per pound. Just give it a thought. Either way you will be making a decision that he will benefit from :biggrin:


----------



## bdb5853 (May 21, 2010)

If you want to go pre-made, I wouldn't recommend Natures Variety. They have recently gone to a pasteurization process that is suspect and they have also had a recall. 

I'd recommend Stella and Chewy's, either the freeze dried raw or the frozen. Primal is good, as is Bravo. All of those are nationally distributed and shouldn't be hard to find.

ZiwiPeak is another food that is very good, although very expensive. 

A prey model raw diet really isn't that hard. If you want to learn more about it, just ask and we'll help you. And YES... I think getting your dog off of kibble and onto raw will help. 

For now I would recommend NO flea preventatives, NO heartworm, and NO vaccines. Get him healthy and then revisit those issues.


----------



## RawFedDogs (Jun 16, 2008)

meggels said:


> Premade raw is the only option I can really do right now. I know it's not ideal, but it's what I can deal with right now. Any suggestions on best premade raw? I was gonna look into the Nature's Variety line.


While premade raw is far superior to kibble, it's not going to help your yeast problems too much because the premade stuff still has the same ingredients as kibble that cause that stuff. There are plenty of carbs in the premade stuff and the carbs are what you want to eliminate.



> Do you think that these issues of his could be solved by a raw diet?


They can be solved by eliminating the carbs in his diet but that would mean a prey model raw diet.



> I know raw diets are often said to be miracle workers and can clear up a lot of issues, so I am willing to try it with my little guy. I know frenchies can be prone to these issues to begin with, but I want Murph to have the best life possible.


Prey model raw CAN be a miracle worker to some dogs, premixes not so much so.



> She suggested I get a good flea and tick preventative, I'm sure she meant the chemical ones they sell.


Use flea preventative when and if you have fleas. Otherwise don't.



> What are some good natural preventatives?


Unfortunately there are none. Some people say garlic is but most who try it say it doesn't work. Another natural thing is diatomaceousearth, human food grade. Some say this works but a lot of people say it doesn't. On both items, my thinking is that people who say it works wouldn't have had fleas even if they hadn't used it.

The easiest best thing you can do for your little dog is prey model raw diet. Check out my web page in my sig for some information on it. Its really not difficult to feed and is cheaper than the premium kibbles and MUCH cheaper than premade raw. I have 2 Great Danes and 2 cats I feed raw to. Others here have more than I do and we all do fine. Feeding one little frenchie would be a cinch. :smile: He would be as easy as one of my cats or easier. :smile:


----------



## meggels (May 30, 2010)

Thanks for the info guys, I really appreciate it. Somethings gotta give, and I want my little dude to be happy. He's such a happy go lucky guy naturally, so sweet, the vet techs were fighting over getting to care for him yesterday. :biggrin: Makes me happy to have such a loveable dog, he wins your heart within minutes. So I want his physical body to match that beautiful soul he has. 

I would be interested in doing prey model, but would really need some help in that department  Would anyone be able to give me an example menu for the week for him? He's only 20lbs, and could stand to GAIN a pound or two, but that's also not too important, he's a little hunk the weight he is now  I just really wanna do it right and help him, so I could use some serious guidance. 

So it sounds like premade mixtures might not be good, does that include the freeze dried? I was gonna look into those, as those sound like the best options due to my living situation right now (staying with a friend and her family, helping her to raise her frenchies this summer(.


----------



## CorgiPaws (Mar 31, 2009)

meggels said:


> I would be interested in doing prey model, but would really need some help in that department  Would anyone be able to give me an example menu for the week for him? He's only 20lbs, and could stand to GAIN a pound or two, but that's also not too important, he's a little hunk the weight he is now  I just really wanna do it right and help him, so I could use some serious guidance.


For a 20lb dog, raw is not nearly as space or time consuming as it is for most of us on here. When i was feeding my 20lb Corgi raw, the first couple months I actually did it out of a cooler because of my living situation. I promise you, it's MUCH more simple than you think it is, and you probably already know a lot more than you realize. 

The first two weeks, you'll want to start with JUST chicken, bone-inclusive. Drumsticks, thighs, and wings are all acceptable cuts for this size dog. I am on a budget as a small business owner, and I opt for quarters, and just take a minute to cut the thigh and drumstick into two pieces, only because it's a cheaper cut. Now, I feed twice a day, and being only 20lbs, half a pound per day is all it should take to maintain a healthy weight, but each dog is different, so that may go up or down slightly, but that's a good starting point. 


Here's an idea of how I feed my 20 lb dog raw:

Two meals per day, one is always bone-inclusive chicken. 

Monday: Cut off of pork roast, boneless. AM, chicken thigh PM
Tuesday: Whole Sardines (2) AM, Chicken drumstick PM
Wednesday: chunk cut from beef brisket, boneless AM, Chicken thigh PM
Thursday: Pork Heart AM, Chicken Drumstick PM
Friday: Lamb Breast AM, Chicken Thigh PM
Saturday: Turkey AM (boneless or bone-in depending on the cut) Chicken drumstick PM
Sunday: Half a Tilapia AM, Chicken thigh PM


Each day I also feed a chicken liver, and a small chunk of beef kidney, except for on days I feed heart or whole fish, but that's something you won't need to bother with for about two months into feeding raw. This is just an EXAMPLE menu, it doesn't need to be all scheduled and planned, just feed a variety of parts from a variety of animals, some bone-inclusive, some not, and you'll be fine. Mostly meat, some bone, some organ, the more variety the better. We feed goat, elk, venison, buffalo, and other novelty sources when we can get our hands on them. Some feed a whole meal of organs every week, others feed small amounts daily. 


ALL that being said, ALL you have to worry about for two weeks, is Chicken. That's it. We'll be here to answer any questions that you come across, but taking it one step at a time is the best way to not get totally overwhelmed, and in time, you'll see how simple it is, and you'll find yourself simplifying your routine even more. I went from weighing and labeling every single meal, and planning which days they eat which food, and now, I just eyeball some hunks of meat, and throw them in a bin.


----------



## meggels (May 30, 2010)

im already overwhelmed LOL


----------



## meggels (May 30, 2010)

I'm a bit worried about bones with him also cause he's a braecephylaic *sp* dog and they can choke easier


----------



## CorgiPaws (Mar 31, 2009)

meggels said:


> im already overwhelmed LOL


That's why you just take it one step at a time. It's really really simple, I promise. 
JUST Chicken for two weeks. That's it. That's all you need to worry about now. Then, you'll add about one new source per week until you have suitable variety. Trust me, when you jump in, you'll realize just how simple it really is. Everyone is overwhelmed at first, promise. 


meggels said:


> I'm a bit worried about bones with him also cause he's a braecephylaic *sp* dog and they can choke easier


I too was concerned about this at first, and I also have a flat-faced pooch (Boxer) and trust me, they can handle it just the same as other dogs.


----------



## meggels (May 30, 2010)

CorgiPaws said:


> That's why you just take it one step at a time. It's really really simple, I promise.
> JUST Chicken for two weeks. That's it. That's all you need to worry about now. Then, you'll add about one new source per week until you have suitable variety. Trust me, when you jump in, you'll realize just how simple it really is. Everyone is overwhelmed at first, promise.
> 
> I too was concerned about this at first, and I also have a flat-faced pooch (Boxer) and trust me, they can handle it just the same as other dogs.


Okay, thank you. I appreciate it so much! So I need to feed him about 1/2lb of chicken a day for the first two weeks? 

I need to begin looking into where I can get these meat sources from. Gonna call around tomorrow.


----------



## meggels (May 30, 2010)

And I know this is probably a silly question but...

How DO they digest those bones? How do the bones not puncture organs in their tummy lol? I just think about myself trying to swallow a chicken wing whole and it scares the bejesus out of me LOL. 

And for the first two weeks, I don't want to feed any hearts or livers right? 

Do you suggest doing one or two meals a day when doing a raw diet?


----------



## CorgiPaws (Mar 31, 2009)

meggels said:


> Okay, thank you. I appreciate it so much! So I need to feed him about 1/2lb of chicken a day for the first two weeks?


Yes, exactly, and it's as simple as that! Feel free to split it into two meals, sometimes that makes the transition easier, but one is fine, too. 

I buy quite a lot of my meat just at Wal Mart. Chicken Leg Quarters are SO affordable if you're willing to do the cutting, otherwise thighs, drumsticks, and wings are really good starting points for a smaller dog. I spend about $10-$12 a month feeding my 20lb dog. 

Some people remove the skin at first, but I haven't found it to be necessary with my dogs. I'd give it a go skin-on at first, and only remove it if you see mushy stools.


----------



## CorgiPaws (Mar 31, 2009)

meggels said:


> How DO they digest those bones? How do the bones not puncture organs in their tummy lol? I just think about myself trying to swallow a chicken wing whole and it scares the bejesus out of me LOL.


Being carnivores, their entire digestive system is designed to handle meat, bones, and organs. Bones in their raw form are very digestible, it's cooked bones that are to blame for all those horror stories about dogs eating bones.You, as a human, probably should be thinking about swallowing chicken wings. lol:tongue:



meggels said:


> And for the first two weeks, I don't want to feed any hearts or livers right?


Nope, just chicken. Organs and heart shouldn't be introduced for about two months, and even then in small amounts to start. I wouldn't concern yourself with them now. 



meggels said:


> Do you suggest doing one or two meals a day when doing a raw diet?


That is entirely up to you. I have always fed two meals. It's just what I do in my house, but most raw feeders that I know feed only once a day. It's unimportant, whichever way you decide to go in the long run.
However, during the transition phase, I think two meals is better, allows their systems to adjust with less food at a time. I wouldn't say that it's a big deal either way though.


----------



## meggels (May 30, 2010)

CorgiPaws said:


> Yes, exactly, and it's as simple as that! Feel free to split it into two meals, sometimes that makes the transition easier, but one is fine, too.
> 
> I buy quite a lot of my meat just at Wal Mart. Chicken Leg Quarters are SO affordable if you're willing to do the cutting, otherwise thighs, drumsticks, and wings are really good starting points for a smaller dog. I spend about $10-$12 a month feeding my 20lb dog.
> 
> Some people remove the skin at first, but I haven't found it to be necessary with my dogs. I'd give it a go skin-on at first, and only remove it if you see mushy stools.


Okay great, thank you. Walmart and Target are right up the street, will go check it out tomorrow. Should I buy frozen or fresh? It's obviously gotta be plain right?


----------



## CorgiPaws (Mar 31, 2009)

meggels said:


> Okay great, thank you. Walmart and Target are right up the street, will go check it out tomorrow. Should I buy frozen or fresh? It's obviously gotta be plain right?


Either one really is fine. In my experience, Wal mart has been MUCH cheaper than target. Plain, yes, unseasoned. I admit that when I see really good deals on "enhanced" meat, I don't pass them up, but you don't want anything basted or glazed or anything like that... just plain ol' Chicken.


----------



## schtuffy (May 17, 2010)

CorgiPaws said:


> Here's an idea of how I feed my 20 lb dog raw:
> 
> Two meals per day, one is always bone-inclusive chicken.
> 
> ...


That sample menu is very helpful since I get most of his bone from chicken too. Though I read somewhere that chicken shouldn't make up 50% or more of a raw diet and also that 50% of your meat should be red meat? I'm thinking it's false, so if someone could just put my fears to rest :biggrin:


----------



## meggels (May 30, 2010)

I think I'm going to be going with a premade raw, NV's line most likely. 

I was reading on a french bulldog forum how bone is usually ground up or not included because of frenchies having issues with it and almost choking to death.

i talked to my mom and she is supportive (mostly lol) of me trying him on a raw diet and is willing to help with the extra money.


----------



## CorgiPaws (Mar 31, 2009)

As much variety as possible is ideal, but really even just one meat, one kind of bone, and liver only is still superior to any kibble on the market. I would say that bone-in chicken probably makes up about 40% of what I feed. I tend to make the chicken meal smaller than the "other" meal every day. I chicken and turkey make up pretty much all of the bone my dogs actually eat. I feel comfortable with the amount of variety that i feed on a weekly basis (chicken, turkey, pork, fish, beef, lamb) and add in extras when I can. For my situation, I feed more chicken to keep it affordable. Because pork and whole fish are pretty reasonably priced, sometimes on those days I don't use chicken at all, depending on what's in the freezer.


----------



## CorgiPaws (Mar 31, 2009)

meggels said:


> I think I'm going to be going with a premade raw, NV's line most likely.
> 
> I was reading on a french bulldog forum how bone is usually ground up or not included because of frenchies having issues with it and almost choking to death.
> 
> i talked to my mom and she is supportive (mostly lol) of me trying him on a raw diet and is willing to help with the extra money.


 ahh scare tactics of the commercial dog food industry are alive and well! Very well then, commercial raw is still a step above kibble, but don't expect it to solve all the symptoms, as it still contains the plant matter and carbs that kibble does. They're more of a "raw kibble" than a species appropriate diet. Nv is probably the most popular commercial raw, but primal and others are still a bit better.


----------



## meggels (May 30, 2010)

CorgiPaws said:


> ahh scare tactics of the commercial dog food industry are alive and well! Very well then, commercial raw is still a step above kibble, but don't expect it to solve all the symptoms, as it still contains the plant matter and carbs that kibble does. They're more of a "raw kibble" than a species appropriate diet. Nv is probably the most popular commercial raw, but primal and others are still a bit better.


It was actually from a french bulldog forum, of people that DO feed raw lol. I was reading up in the "raw feeding" section in french bulldog world or something like that.

I'm going to call the food store tomorrow and see what they carry for the premade raw diets. 

Also- what about bone meal? I've heard you can purchase that and just add it to the food, which I would be more than willing to do lol.


----------



## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

if starting with a grind or pre made is more comfortable for you because you have a smash faced dog, i can understand it. one of my co op people started out with ground chicken/bone ground in and she has swiss mountain dogs...

eventually she came to see that her dogs could handle bones....see, even though they weren't smushy faced, they were so big, they tried to swallow the chickens whole..and they were whole chickens...

it's scary at first....it really is. i have one of those smash faced dogs...a pug...and he is a gulper....in the beginning, he tried to swallow his food whole, so we started with chicken backs....recommended by RawFedDogs....for both my pug and corgi mix...

believe me, they learn pretty quickly how to eat....

if you're not comfortable with giving your dog a thigh or leg quarter, then ground i believe, is more beneficial than the packaged pre mades....and maybe a good place for you to start....


----------



## CorgiPaws (Mar 31, 2009)

I agree with Magicre, that homemade ground is a decent starting point, and beneficial over kibble and even pre made raw, because you have complete control over exactly what does and doesn't get included. If you went that route, than human food grade (not garden grade) bone meal is the route you'd go... but you have to be careful with that stuff, it can cause stools to become impacted if given too much. You also would not be getting the dental benefits of prey model raw, which is a bummer. 
And, should ever you decide that you want to go the PMR route, you know where to find us.:wink:


----------



## meggels (May 30, 2010)

Hmm. I'm going to definitely think about it. Keep researching. As I don't want to just jump into a decision like I do normally lol. 

Where would one acquire bone meal? Any ideas on how much to give?


----------



## RawFedDogs (Jun 16, 2008)

meggels said:


> Where would one acquire bone meal? Any ideas on how much to give?


Don't get off on the track of bone meal. It not really bone and its a very poor substitute for bone. Your dogs can eat bones. Trust me. Dogs have been eating bone for millions of years. They know how to do it and are very well equipped to do it. Eating whole bones is very beneficial in many ways for the mental and physical health of a dog.


----------



## meggels (May 30, 2010)

RawFedDogs said:


> Don't get off on the track of bone meal. It not really bone and its a very poor substitute for bone. Your dogs can eat bones. Trust me. Dogs have been eating bone for millions of years. They know how to do it and are very well equipped to do it. Eating whole bones is very beneficial in many ways for the mental and physical health of a dog.


But frenchies are such a....contrived breed. With those little faces...and everything.


----------



## meggels (May 30, 2010)

Alright, screw it. I'm just going to jump in and try to feed him a chicken meal tonight. Gonna pop over to Walmart and pick some stuff up. See how it goes. If he chokes on the bones and dies though, I'm going to be very upset. :wink: I trust you guys that he won't, but it's hard not to be paranoid cause it's such a foreign concept lol.


----------



## DaneMama (Jun 27, 2008)

meggels said:


> But frenchies are such a....contrived breed. With those little faces...and everything.


Just means that you will have to help them learn to chew their bones in the beginning. Even frenchies have good strong teeth and powerful jaws to crunch through bones. If anything I think it's more imperative that brachycephalic breeds be on raw because their dentition is so misaligned that they don't usually have good dental hygiene, so the act of chewing on edible bones is very good for them. Even thought their physical shape is much different than most other dogs doesn't mean they have a different digestive system and nutritional needs. Selective breeding is done on physical and temperament typically and not what dogs should eat. There is a chance that people could actually breed for a "omnivorous" dog through selecitvw breeding but that would take a lot of work and they'd most likely end up with seriously inbred and mutated dogs.


----------



## meggels (May 30, 2010)

Natalie,

How would I help him learn to do it the proper way?


----------



## DaneMama (Jun 27, 2008)

meggels said:


> Natalie,
> 
> How would I help him learn to do it the proper way?


What I suggest to small dog owners and young puppies is to start with chicken wings and drummies. Whack them with a hammer until the bones are mostly crunched up. Then progressively whack it up less and less until he develops the skill to chew their food all on their own. This might take a few weeks or only a few days. You don't want to cut the bones up because that can cause dangerous pieces of bone. Bone needs to crunch and break in a more natural way so whacking it with a hammer is best.


----------



## meggels (May 30, 2010)

Bought 2lbs of chicken wings at the grocery store. So we'll see how this goes? 

Should I start him tonight? Or wait until tomorrow?


----------



## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

meggels said:


> But frenchies are such a....contrived breed. With those little faces...and everything.


so are pugs....bubba really worried me....with that dentition....so not like a wolf LOL

no long snout on this dog...i didn't think he'd be able to eat raw..

while there is a learning curve, to be sure, for them....and they are pretty funny as they learn....once they get the hang of it....well, we don't call him dances with food for nothing 

i think natalie has a pretty good idea of how to start....for your comfort and their learning...


----------



## DaneMama (Jun 27, 2008)

meggels said:


> Bought 2lbs of chicken wings at the grocery store. So we'll see how this goes?
> 
> Should I start him tonight? Or wait until tomorrow?


If you've already fed him something today I suggest you fast him tonight and give him his first raw meal for breakfast. He may turn his nose up at it but just give him the piece of meat and walk away. Give him 15 minutes to eat and if he doesn't take it up without making a fuss and put it up later for his next meal. Offer it again and give him the same amount of time to start eating. If he does good, if not repeat what you did last time. Eventually he will figure it out.


----------



## bdb5853 (May 21, 2010)

Watch his stools. Chicken wings are very, very bony. If he gets constipated, add some meat in. I'd probably advise to do that anyway. If he were mine, I would start him on bone-in chicken breasts. Much better meat to bone ratio.


----------



## MollyWoppy (Mar 19, 2010)

> once they get the hang of it....well, we don't call him dances with food for nothing


LOL that just cracked me up...........


----------



## Khan (Jan 17, 2010)

I know you will see a difference in the itchiness almost right away, and I bet within about a week or so, you will see his ears starting to clear up.
Good for you for taking the plunge. You and Murph will not be sorry.
Like everyone said, go slow, there will be a learning curve for you both. After a month or so, you will both be pro's at this.


----------



## meggels (May 30, 2010)

I dunno if I can do it  Mostly it's just the bones that make me really nervous because of his head/muzzle. Humph.


----------



## RawFedDogs (Jun 16, 2008)

meggels said:


> I dunno if I can do it  Mostly it's just the bones that make me really nervous because of his head/muzzle. Humph.


After a few weeks of watching him eat them, you'll feel a lot better. Don't think you are the only one that felt like this in the beginning. :smile:


----------



## bdb5853 (May 21, 2010)

I know how you feel. The first time I gave my boy a chicken wing, he dove right in and started crunching away. The sound of the bones crunching freaked me out and I took it away. I didn't try again for quite awhile. In the meantime, I got on youtube and watched video after video of dogs eating raw. Big dogs, little ones, puppies. And it gave me the confidence to try again. Go at your own pace but don't wait too long. Your dog NEEDS a healthy diet.


----------



## bumblegoat (May 12, 2010)

My dog licks and bites his paws, and they can get really red and irritated if I don't stop him. A change to a raw diet did NOT help him. My dog most likely suffers from enviromental allergies, and I suspect pollen.

Raw might help your dog, but don't expect a miracle to happen, since his issues could be enviromental and not diet related.


----------



## DaneMama (Jun 27, 2008)

One of our dogs has always been itchy which I think it's because of her personality since she is very high strung. We feed raw and have tried the elimination method to no actual result. Within the last month or so she has been chewing holes in her fur until she bleeds. We've tried all the holistic and natural methods without success. She was miserable til we started her on low dose prednisone. It's the only thing that I've found that has made her comfortable in any way and that is what matters to me right now.

Most dogs that are itchy and uncomfortable are helped by a raw diet but you also must understand that not all raw diets are equal and therefore some still elicit an immune response in the form of an allergy.


----------



## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

meggels said:


> I dunno if I can do it  Mostly it's just the bones that make me really nervous because of his head/muzzle. Humph.


my first feeding with my dogs....i heard that first crunch and thought i had killed my dogs.

i watched the pug hork up his food five times flinging stuff all over the place and thought i had killed my dog...actually I wanted to kill my dog, for he had flung all over my kitchen....SO not prepared for that one...LOL

NOT every dog is a gulper like mine is....malia, the corgi mix, is methodical and crunches each piece of bone until she's ready to swallow....

every dog is different..
now, i watch with sheer joy....it's just as much for my pleasure as it is for them...

bubba's a pug with a smush face and crooked teeth...by the time he's finished, sometimes he needs a bath.....it gets stuck in his feet...poor guy...but it's funny....and eventually, after licking each blade of grass for more....he's cleaned up...himself..and has a very satisfied look on his face.

never have i seen two dogs soooooooooooo happy to eat....

he doesn't hork things up anymore...well, maybe once...but not five....he crunches...because his jaws are stronger....as are his neck muscles..

please don't let the first month sway you...it's all part of the learning curve for you and for the dog.....white knuckle, sure....but if you stick it out....and let the dog learn how to eat a different way, you will see things you've never seen before...

white white teeth....no ear and eye gunk..other than environmental bug eyed allergies or fan/ air conditioning stuff....no more yeasty ears....brilliant coat, beautiful coat...muscles....an energy that is so different...it's palpable...

i'm not saying that raw will cure everything...i doubt it cures hayfever or any pollen allergies....but it certainly will help the dog's immune system to combat that which attacks it much better....


----------



## meggels (May 30, 2010)

Bumping this because I'm still considering going raw.

Question though...

The breeder I'm living with feeds a few of her frenchies, her whippet, and her mini Xolo raw, so I've been getting some exposure since I do their feedings most nights. 

I bet that she would let me use some of her meat, which would probably make it easier, and I could just pay her a bit each month. Each night, we do a mixture of chicken (it comes in these 5lb rolls, it's got little pieces of bone in it), tripe (gag lol), ground beef, and then she purchases ground turkey rolls (like a pound each) from the grocery store cause her whippet loves it. 

She purchases this stuff from some sort of co-op where they make deliveries in the NJ/PA area, and I think this would be a good way to start off in raw. I'm pretty sure the chicken is JUSt ground chicken & bone in the roll, but I will go downstairs and look in a few minutes.

Do you think this might be a good idea?


----------



## jdatwood (Apr 13, 2009)

Just to be clear are you saying that you'd be feeding primarily ground meats?

If so, I wouldn't go that route. You want primarily whole muscle meat with some bone & some organs.


----------



## Doc (Jan 17, 2009)

chicken backs, leg quarters. I always start a dog on them. Not ground anything. If they are a smaller type dog and you are worried about bones, crush chicken wings with a hammer then serve!

Keep lots of fresh water around too.


----------



## CorgiPaws (Mar 31, 2009)

I will first say that there is no one way of feeding raw, and that we all have our own opinions of the right way, or the way that makes the most sense to us. 

This isn't the route I personally would go, but I have seen plenty of animals do pretty decent on this method of feeding, so if that's what you're comfortable with doing, give it a shot.


----------



## meggels (May 30, 2010)

I think for now, yes. It would be easiest in terms of money, space, etc.

The woman I'm living with is so nice and generous, so this is a way for me to get started, and since I'm living in her house, I don't really feel comfortable taking up her freezer space with my own raw food. 

I don't mind giving him a raw meaty bone pretty often though. I just don't think it'd be his WHOLE meal? I like to feed marrow bones once a week...err...not feed, but ya know lol. 

Or like, I wouldn't mind giving him a chicken wing a few times a week. 

I just think that because she's already feeding this stuff, it'd be the easiest way for me to get involved. And the chicken has little pieces of bones in it, so granted, it's not the same as them chewing a big bone, but yeah...


----------



## meggels (May 30, 2010)

Also, let me state...

My budget from my mother (who is currently supporting me since I do not have a job sadly) is $30 a month for Murphy's kibble.

Would it be possible if I went with the prey model raw to feed him on that much money a month??


----------



## jdatwood (Apr 13, 2009)

meggels said:


> I think for now, yes. It would be easiest in terms of money, space, etc.
> 
> The woman I'm living with is so nice and generous, so this is a way for me to get started, and since I'm living in her house, I don't really feel comfortable taking up her freezer space with my own raw food.
> 
> ...


It's certainly not the worst way to get started. :wink: If that's the best you can do for now given your circumstances I say go for it!

I would be careful with marrow bones since they can cause broken teeth

Supplementing with RMB's as often as possible would be great!



meggels said:


> Also, let me state...
> 
> My budget from my mother (who is currently supporting me since I do not have a job sadly) is $30 a month for Murphy's kibble.
> 
> Would it be possible if I went with the prey model raw to feed him on that much money a month??


How much does Murphy weigh? (forgive me if it's already been stated)


----------



## meggels (May 30, 2010)

He's a 20lb frenchie. 

That's around his ideal weight. He could perhaps gain a pound or two, but in terms of frenchies, he's pretty small and compact, esp for a male.

Here's my dude:











Also, what would some good RMB's be to supplement with?


----------



## meggels (May 30, 2010)

And that's a bummer about marrow bones. My dogs go nuts for them lol


----------



## jdatwood (Apr 13, 2009)

meggels said:


> He's a 20lb frenchie.
> 
> That's around his ideal weight. He could perhaps gain a pound or two, but in terms of frenchies, he's pretty small and compact, esp for a male.
> 
> ...


Given the 2-3% of ideal body weight method I'd say he'd be eating roughly 1/2 pound a day. If you're able to find deals close to our pricing (we pay on average $0.60/lb) you could essentially feed him for $0.30/day

We really love giving beef & pork ribs. Your frenchie might not have issues with marrow bones though. Typically smaller dogs don't have the jaw strength to break a tooth like the larger dogs like ours do (our hybrid broke a carnasial and we had to have it extracted)


----------



## Ania's Mommy (Feb 8, 2009)

meggels said:


> I don't mind giving him a raw meaty bone pretty often though. I just don't think it'd be his WHOLE meal? I like to feed marrow bones once a week...err...not feed, but ya know lol.


I think that the M in RMB's is sometimes forgotten about. A lot of people think of them as being akin to beef ribs or something similar; very high bone content with little (if any) meat.

I consider most anything with a bone in it a RMB. So a chicken leg quarter, for instance. Is this way of thinking correct?

I agree with Jon about the marrow bones. They could lead to broken teeth.

As far as your plan of action, Meggles, I say go for it! We all gotta start somewhere, and I think that you seem to have a good resource. What you are able to feed now is better than (IMO) any kibble.


----------



## CorgiPaws (Mar 31, 2009)

On price:
I feed my active 20lb Corgi PMR on about $12 a month. No co op. No wholesaler. No bulk orders. Just grocery stores, and the occasional sale. 
If it's price that worries you, I'd say that on $30 a month, you could feed just about any meat you wanted! 
If it's comfort/ convenience/ etc then do what you feel you ought to. :biggrin:


----------



## meggels (May 30, 2010)

CorgiPaws said:


> On price:
> I feed my active 20lb Corgi PMR on about $12 a month. No co op. No wholesaler. No bulk orders. Just grocery stores, and the occasional sale.
> If it's price that worries you, I'd say that on $30 a month, you could feed just about any meat you wanted!
> If it's comfort/ convenience/ etc then do what you feel you ought to. :biggrin:


HOW?! Lol

I need to just browse the grocery store, cause it boggles my mind you are able to do that!!!


----------



## spookychick13 (Jan 26, 2010)

Bug the butcher! Also, hit the markets if you can.

This week's score was a dirt cheap grass fed beef heart for the boys from the Farmer's Market!

I saw a ton of frozen chicken feet there this weekend too.


----------



## CorgiPaws (Mar 31, 2009)

meggels said:


> HOW?! Lol
> 
> I need to just browse the grocery store, cause it boggles my mind you are able to do that!!!


Well, I admittedly feed more chicken than I'd like to. Two meals a day, one slightly bigger than the other. Smaller one is almost always chicken. I buy 10lbs of chicken for $5 at wal mart. I also buy pork roasts at wal mart for no more than $1.10/lb (usually around $.99) 
I don't feed as much beef as I'd like to, I mostly just do beef heart and beef ribs, but occasionally if ground is on a really good sale, I'll grab it just because. 
I do whole fish. The cheapest I can find, usually. Except carp. I bought carp ONCE, but never again. Don't care how cheap it is. 


I also do stock up when I see a sale. ($.25 turkey, you bet I bought 17 of them.)


Maybe I'm just really lucky, I have no idea. In Both Orem, UT and henderson, NV I've had no problem doing raw on a budget. I can't figure out how people afford Evo and orijen! lol


----------



## meggels (May 30, 2010)

Wow! I need to find a Walmart with a grocery section. 

One cool thing I found at the local grocery store were tubs of chicken hearts and livers.


----------



## jdatwood (Apr 13, 2009)

meggels said:


> and livers.


Ugh, I HATE chicken livers for the big dogs... too sloppy  :biggrin:


----------



## meggels (May 30, 2010)

jdatwood said:


> Ugh, I HATE chicken livers for the big dogs... too sloppy  :biggrin:


hahaha  it might not have been livers. there were too separate tubs, one had gizzards & hearts I think? Maybe the other one was livers...hmm...


Also...he got 1/2 cup of kibble this morning (he gets 1/2 cup am & pm). Should I fast him until tomorrow night? Cause I'm thinking I will only feed him once a day at night? Sound good?


----------



## Ania's Mommy (Feb 8, 2009)

meggels said:


> Also...he got 1/2 cup of kibble this morning (he gets 1/2 cup am & pm). Should I fast him until tomorrow night? Cause I'm thinking I will only feed him once a day at night? Sound good?


Sounds good to me.


----------



## jdatwood (Apr 13, 2009)

meggels said:


> hahaha  it might not have been livers. there were too separate tubs, one had gizzards & hearts I think? Maybe the other one was livers...hmm...
> 
> 
> Also...he got 1/2 cup of kibble this morning (he gets 1/2 cup am & pm). Should I fast him until tomorrow night? Cause I'm thinking I will only feed him once a day at night? Sound good?


Ours don't seem to like the gizzards?

Never hurts to do a fast before making changes :biggrin:


----------



## Doc (Jan 17, 2009)

Chicken livers are good if they are fried real hard in lard! Well, maybe not so good for the dogs.


----------



## jdatwood (Apr 13, 2009)

Liver is one thing I'll never knowingly eat. The smell of that stuff makes me wanna


----------

