# When you know too much...



## BrownieM (Aug 30, 2010)

I am putting this in the raw feeding section so I don't insult any kibble feeders. It does apply to more than just raw feeding, though, so mods, feel free to move this to another section if you see fit.

I have learned so much in the past year, about my dogs and their health. I have developed strong opinions that are based on facts. 

I believe that raw feeding is absolutely the best thing that you can do for a dog. I believe that my dogs are far healthier and happier than anyone's dog who eats kibble. 

I believe that overvaccination is a big issue. There is no legitimate reason for any vet practice to send yearly reminders for annual vaccinations. I can tell an outdated practice by whether they send "annual checkup" reminders or "annual vaccination" reminders. I will not vaccinate my dogs yearly.

I believe large breed dogs should not be spayed/neutered at 4-6 months like most vets suggest. I personally think that the benefits of waiting until full maturity outweigh the risks after one heat cycle. 

I believe that dominance theory is an absolute crock. I cringe when someone tells me they put their dog on their back to remind them who is boss. Or when someone tells me their dog is "dominant" (dominance is situational, not static) or that they play into their dog's dominance by always feeding the "dominant dog" first, letting the dominant dog go outside first, walk through the door first, etc. Dominance is a relationship between a dog and another dog or a dog and a human. It changes and is situational. 

I believe that the average person doesn't give a rat's a** what kind of breeder their dog comes from. I have so many friends buying mutt mixes from questionable breeders. They think that just because the breeder is *nice*, they are a good breeder. Not so much, my friends. A friend of mine recently had a cockapoo shipped to her in Atlanta. I kindly asked if she got it from a reputable breeder who did health testing, and she said "yes." I left it at that, but I do know that reputable breeders of mixed breed dogs do not exist, in my opinion, based on what defines a reputable breeder, to me. I don't believe in breeding mutts, period. Go to a shelter for a mutt, they need homes and they are just as cute.

So, what is my point? :smile:

Well, my point is that it has become very difficult for me to converse with anyone in the general population about anything dog related, LOL! I just smile and nod my way through so many daily interactions.

*Situation 1*: I went to Pet Supplies Plus looking for a tracking harness because I just started tracking with Millie. A very nice gentleman asked if he could help me. In my head, I thought, (_probably not, but I'll be nice and ask anyway._) So, I asked, "do you have any tracking harnesses?" Blank stare. I rephrased, "I need a non-restrictive harness" He still couldn't help me. (A restrictive harness is one that puts pressure on their shoulders and limits movement. You *want* your dog to pull when tracking and you want their movement to be open and you don't want them choking themselves. Generally, a regular harness is fine. A step in harness is typically restrictive.) Conversation ended by friendly gentleman telling me I should have his job instead of him. LOL.


*Situation 2*: I go to the local dog boutique who sells pre-made raw. I am just there to pick up some Zukes treats. Somehow I say that I am feeding homemade raw and the lady goes on and on about the dangers of not balancing the diet, etc. In one ear, out the other. She obviously assumes that I just toss raw meat here and there and is clueless to the fact that I actually do feed a balanced, homemade raw diet. Another situation where I would be a better owner of the pet shop...


So, do any of you feel like you know so much it is difficult to find anyone who can even have an intelligent conversation with you about dog related things?


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## CavePaws (Jan 25, 2011)

Yes. Oh god yes. I am really horrified by some of the things I hear at the kennel I train dogs at...Or at the suggestions I hear people giving each other on training and food. What horrifies me the most is how they justify it and the logic they use...If it can even be called logic. I feel bad for saying this but a lot of the time I feel like I am surrounded by ignorant people who just don't care to learn more for the health of their dog. It's because they've become static. They think that just because it is "the norm" for everyone else and their dog that they should follow those same sub-par standards. It's sad. And it's killing our most beloved of companions.


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## Angelwing (Feb 20, 2011)

I am constantly surrounded by ignorant clients and have to remember to just keep my mouth shut, nod and smile. People who either don't care or don't even notice serious health problems with their dogs, or just idiots in general. There's this one client who came in on a rainy day, I think it was for 10am. He says he hasn't let the dog out for a bathroom break since last night because 'it was raining this morning and I didn't want her to get wet'. Almost punched him on the spot. I can't stand idiotic people so I take the dog, put a leash on her (because SURPRISE he doesn't have one for her) and let her outside. She of course goes to the bathroom immediately. It's people like this, and people who come in consistently with severely pelted dogs that I want to call the humane society on (we have once in the past but the humane society didn't give a ****, yeah nice huh). 80% of dog owners who come in shouldn't own dogs, or should have researched owning a dog before they got one.


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## Northwoods10 (Nov 22, 2010)

Yep, I catch your drift. 

I usually end up getting frustrated & worked up when it comes to the general topic of dogs and some of my friends or the average public person. Here's a scenario:

At work we have a CHASE AWAY K9 CANCER donation box. Its fairly new, and we've gotten quite a bit of donations. The box is clear plastic, so you can see how much money is in there. The other day, a customer of ours....who is also a good friend of my DH's family came in, saw the box and said "What a joke. If my dog had cancer, there's a thing called a bullet." I literally had to make myself walk the other direction and find something to occupy myself with. I was LIVID. 

I've came to the general conclusion that the average person just doesn't care as much about their dogs...to them...they are just dogs. Kind of like the poem I just posted in the general talk section. My dogs are way more to me than "just dogs".


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## Mokapi (Apr 7, 2011)

I always manage to get behind the people in line at Wal-Mart that are buying huge bags of Beneful, Ol Roy, etc. It makes me unhappy. :|

I feel this way more-so about exotic animals. I've had guinea pigs since I was just a kid (and now have rabbits, hamsters, and mice, too), and people look so confused when I ask what kind of hay they buy. Then they light up when I ask what kind of veggies, and go "Oh, salad lettuce! They like carrots too!"...facepalm. Every species/type of animal has specific needs, but people are so based on the here-and-now that they buy animals without giving it proper consideration and then simply don't care when they can't provide well for it. It makes me kind of sick. 

@BrownieM- That's too bad your PSP associate was so misinformed. ): The people at my store tend to really know what they're talking about (apart from raw, of course. Manager told me I shouldn't bother with it...that a premium kibble is better, easier, and cheaper.) when it comes to that kind of stuff. I've been taken aside and "reprimanded", I guess is a good word for it, for the type of harness I had on him and for feeding him Eukanuba before. They seem to be actually interested in the welfare of the animals there.


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## BrownieM (Aug 30, 2010)

Mokapi - I really do like PSP. The associates are very friendly, this gentleman was no exception. He really wanted to help me even though he didn't know anything about tracking! He was kinda cute too. :wink: I guess tracking isn't something that everybody knows about so I understand. It was just another example of knowing too much, ha ha.


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## SpooOwner (Oct 1, 2010)

I do a lot of blank smiling and keeping my mouth shut. On the other hand, I love, love, LOVE finding like-minded people: my trainer, my vet, the owner of a boutique pet supply store, and many of the people I meet through classes, some of whom have educated me, and some of whom I get to educate. And of course, the folks here.


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## bernadettelevis (Feb 2, 2011)

i so know what you mean!

I can't talk to many people about dogs because i get frustrated and i know that sometimes i don stay nice and calm.
Why are like 95% of all the people so ignorant??? Even my best friend! First she bought a crap food because the man in the pet shop told her it was the best! Of course it is produced by the pet shop :/
Now her vet told her to put the dog on royal canin. Of course this is a special formula that only vets sell and so much better than the other crap ,ha :bored:
And when it comes to training, oh i really have to shut my mouth, because at the dog park there are so many people just following what ceasar says or another famous german dog trainer on tv. All about the dominance and bla bla bla.....:tape2:

But this doesn't stop at dogs. Horses another topic i get heated about.
Last year i had a very long discussion with the owner of my stable, who hunts and has alsways had dogs and so on....
Well i'm i girl, i'm 22 and i own a weimaraner and a stallion who is 4 years and whom i got when he was 1 and trained him everything myself. I do showjumpin also tournaments.
So first he went on and on why i shouldn't own a weimaraner and another hunter he knew had to shoot his weimaraner because he became so agressive and if you don't hunt (and well he didn't say this but i know that's what he thinks) and your a girl you should probably own an chihuaha and that's it. :bored:
Then he went on and on about why i shouldn't own a stallion and especially a young one! According to him i should buy a 20 year oldhorse or something. 
We have one person at the stable, he rode his whole life and thinks he is so super good ut when really he's just brutal. He recently started buying young horses. When the horses first cam i rode them and taught them most of the stuff and believe me, there was not a single horse that is "bad"!
Well then he started riding them and problems arose. The horses started to buck and stuff.... So then he was the big hero for "breaking" those horses again! Well he only "had to" break them because he initiated the problems with beeing brutal... Poor horses!!
But still everybody admires him. He's like the cesar milan of horses only even a lotmore brutal..... and it freaks me out!
Yes i'ma girl and only 22 and i have a stallion and a weimaraner and i train both myself without fear or beeing brutal! And yes they both do exactly what i want them to do! They are so good and it shows that it works without beeing brutal, so why are people so ignorant???
Andi just would never have the strenth to "dominate" a horse physically so i have to find other ways of training, not that i would like to "dominate" them physically. 

Ok i will stop myself now


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## swolek (Mar 31, 2011)

Mokapi said:


> I feel this way more-so about exotic animals. I've had guinea pigs since I was just a kid (and now have rabbits, hamsters, and mice, too), and people look so confused when I ask what kind of hay they buy. Then they light up when I ask what kind of veggies, and go "Oh, salad lettuce! They like carrots too!"...facepalm. Every species/type of animal has specific needs, but people are so based on the here-and-now that they buy animals without giving it proper consideration and then simply don't care when they can't provide well for it. It makes me kind of sick.


This happens with me, especially with rabbits. For whatever reason, people always feel the need to tell horrible stories about their past rabbits once they know I have them. "Oh, I had a rabbit once! My dog ate him, though". And most people have NO idea that they can live inside as litterbox-trained house pets.

I'm the worst with fish (I'm just as passionate about aquariums as I am dogs). I actively avoid aquarium conversations although I'll happily help people who actually want to learn (I'm known as a "fish person" so I get regular e-mail and phone calls from people needing aquarium help, lol).

It's funny because my mom knows how I am (and she can be the same way now!) so she has to add disclaimers like "Someone at work got a guinea pig, want to see pictures? I know, I know, she said she's getting a buddy for it soon!".


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## eternalstudent (Jul 22, 2010)

I feel exactly where you are coming from, unfortunately :-(

I more or less have stopped talking to people around here about dogs. 

It is worse in my training classes as people know I have only had a dog for 10 months. Well hell I might have, but I studied farm more, questioned far more and learnt far more than most of them ever will. But as I'm still classed as a noob nobody will listen, so I stop talking.

Most of my "friends" think a dog is just a dog and do not understand why I bother to spend so much time with my dog and I am met with utter bewilderment when I say I will spend $12 on fuel to go by chicken just for my pup.

So, where I know I am not in the category (in my mind) of knowing to much, I am definitely in the category of knowing way more than others want ;-)

However, there are places like DFC where we can at least have conversations about the little angels that are our lives


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## xxshaelxx (Mar 8, 2010)

When I adopted Kuso, the receptionists at the clinic (he was adopted through a vet clinic) tried to force their Iams packet on me, complete with brochures and all that...stuff... I told them "No thank you, I'm going to fast him for a day and start him on raw tomorrow." They didn't NOT agree with me, but they were, like, "Oh, he'll let you know that he's hungry, you better feed him and transfer him slowly and blah, blah, blah! We have a tech that feeds raw, let us get her!" So they went to get the tech, and she comes back and goes "Oh, what do you feed?" And I said "Well, meat, bones and organs, a Prey Model Raw style diet." And she goes "Oh no! That's not a balanced diet! You have to add vegetables and supplements to balance it out." I seriously felt like saying, with a big, $***-eating grin on my face, "Yeah, because I totally see wolves running around chewing on little vitamin tablets in the wild!"


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## eternalstudent (Jul 22, 2010)

xxshaelxx said:


> "Yeah, because I totally see wolves running around chewing on little vitamin tablets in the wild!"


Yea but our dogs are dom-es-tic-ated .......................


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## Loki Love (Jan 30, 2011)

I can so relate to what you're saying. In the past 2 years, my knowledge of things has multiplied two fold. I'm much more savy on nutrition, training, breeders, etc. I certainly don't claim to know it all, but I do feel stifled during conversations with the average Joe Public. I have a hard time restraining myself as well - there's a fine line between educating and being preachy. I don't think I've quite mastered this yet, so for the most part I just keep my mouth shut and nod and smile.


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## BrownieM (Aug 30, 2010)

Loki Love said:


> I can so relate to what you're saying. In the past 2 years, my knowledge of things has multiplied two fold. I'm much more savy on nutrition, training, breeders, etc. I certainly don't claim to know it all, but I do feel stifled during conversations with the average Joe Public. I have a hard time restraining myself as well - there's a fine line between educating and being preachy. I don't think I've quite mastered this yet, so for the most part I just keep my mouth shut and nod and smile.


I agree, I most definitely don't know it all. Not even close. There is so much to learn and I think _that_ is why I get so frustrated. I want to learn, but your average joe, which is exactly what I was a year ago, hardly knows _anything_!


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## CorgiPaws (Mar 31, 2009)

Oh man, I totally get this. I work with animals, and unfortunately, with their owners, too. I *hate* it when people want to ask me my opinion or help with their dogs, and everything I say is "not what the vet" said, or they know a coworker whose sister's friend's boyfriend's aunt's dog choked on a bone once....
My family is the WORST. They aren't dog people at all, they really don't get it. They're baffled that I will spend $1500 on a dog when there are so many in the newspaper for $200... or why I would pay $1000 for Annie and NOT have puppies with her to get my money back. Now that breeding is becoming closer and closer for me, and I'm really diving into that world, they really don't get why I need to wait 2 years for health testing, or why I'm so selective. Because, after all, their friend just took two dogs, put them together, and made a lot of money! Heck, they don't even have to be the same breed! *facepalm* No matter how much I try to educate them on ethical breeding, I feel like everything I say falls on dead ears and then I'M the "stupid" one for being so particular.


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

i am reading through this and i totally get it....and then i think back to how frustrated i was during the kibble days....seemed to me there was always an ingredient that i didn't like....

how i wonder what my reaction would have been to have a raw feeder in kibble clothing.....approach me....

i know so much more now than i did a few years ago....and whilst i won't back away from a discussion.....i don't go looking for it anymore....and daily, i am thankful for my friends whom i've met from here and through my co op.....


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## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

Well, I think everyone thinks what they are doing is right, and sometimes change is a process over time, not a sudden revelation.

The Chinese melamine scare was several years ago, but I didn't associate the problem with processed dog food, just certain ingredients. So I started looking for better ingredients, grown in the USA, etc. And eventually when I kept having problems I ended up here. But when melamine happened I didn't just say AHA! I better never feed processed dog food again (even though that's what i should have done).

If someone had told me at that time I was just plain wrong for feeding processed food, i'm not sure I was ready to accept that.

Plus, I never knew anyone who fed raw meat to their dogs. It just wasn't in my real life experience - had I been competing, or entering dog shows etc. I might have been exposed alot sooner.


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## SerenityFL (Sep 28, 2010)

BrownieM said:


> So, do any of you feel like you know so much it is difficult to find anyone who can even have an intelligent conversation with you about dog related things?


To a point. I still have much to learn with training but as far as "putting a dog on their back to show them who's boss", I think if you read my thread about that, you know where I stand. 

I have learned that dominance DOES change between dogs because I have two, now, and it has most certainly changed. And? They are always vying for it so it will always change. If I take them out together, they come out at the same time and come in at the same time...according to me. How they work it out between themselves is their business. 

If I take them out one at a time, I switch it up to who goes first and they can deal with the other stuff between themselves.

Food? Oh heck yes. Simply because since I started raw 7 months ago, or more, now, I have read a lot. A lot. A LOT about dog food, nutrition as well as cat food and nutrition. I've studied the dog anatomy. I had a dog before and I didn't do that. I was one of those who trusted my vet and the pet food industry. 

Vaccinations? Yep, I'm with you. Mainly because of this forum although I have read that in other places, as well. And I believe that, just as with the pet food industry, I must follow the money trail to see why it is recommended every year because it usually goes right back to who benefits more...the dog or the company. Guess who it is. I have had conversations with people who want to get all uppity about how people don't vaccinate their dogs and how they are lazy and don't care by countering with what "evidence" I can find and tell them that, hey, we may be pals but I'm going to disagree with you and here's why. In fact, I'm in the middle of one of those conversations, right now.

I didn't know diddly about the spay/neuter thing until I came here and I'm still gonna have to do more reading about that. I did mine at that age because I have a boy and a girl and I don't need puppies. But, for the future, I will have more knowledge.

Breeders: Eh, I've never bought a dog and I never will. I will always rescue any pets I have. Every last animal that I have EVER owned, (besides my rats although I considered them rescues as well since they were going to be snake food), has been a rescue. Meaning, I rescued them from the streets or from someone who was going to give them to the shelter because they weren't so cute anymore or too much work. (Really? A guinea pig is too much work?) (Oh, I forgot, my rabbits I had when I was little...I didn't buy them, they were gifts. From my parents....but I'm talking about since I was an adult.) So I don't have a lot of knowledge on breeders. Not trying to rub anyone the wrong way but if someone comes up to me and asks me where they should get a pet from, I'm always going to suggest a rescue, shelter or local HS first. What they do from there is not my business because it's not something I can control. They have to make those choices, I voiced my opinion, it's their life. I will do what I can to talk them out of back yard breeders, (found on CL), or pet stores and give them the horror story version of it....but, if they go to a breeder, reputable or not, that's what they do.

And frankly, I had an encounter, awhile ago, with some idiot at a pet store, (big chain, won't mention the name), when I was looking for training collars for the hoodlums.

MY hoodlums were sitting obediently at my feet while I looked.

As I was looking, another lady with out of control tiny dogs came down the aisle. Her dogs were charging at the end of their leashes at my dogs, barking up a storm, causing all sorts of issues. Mine? Continued to sit, obediently at my feet.

I stepped between her dogs and my dogs. I asked her to please control her dogs. She said they "just wanted to play". I said I didn't care, my dogs were not at the store to "play", again, please control your dogs.

A manager at the store, who was there helping me with training collars told me I was wrong for asking the lady to control her dogs. REALLY!?!!?! She also stated, "they just want to play" and acted like I was the one causing all the problems. My dogs were STILL sitting obediently, now behind me, but not causing any issues at all.

She then informed me that MY dogs needed training and would I like to sign up for classes at their store. You see, the other lady with her out of control dogs were taking classes there.

Yes, indeed, I see how well that's working for them. I told her I think I was probably doing just fine on my own considering that my dogs didn't move an inch, bark or even flinch the entire time this other lady's dogs were going insane.

Right, I'm gonna take a class from you. Moron.

I find that when I do go in to a pet store looking for something, I'm very selective about the pet store I go to anymore. Those big chains? Full of unedcuated people. It's a bunch of what they think not what is fact.

I go to one called Pet Supermarket that's not too far because a) they ALWAYS greet me when I walk through the door, (if you lived in Miami you would understand why this is huge), b) never question and c) always help me find what I want and actually KNOW what it is I'm asking for even if I don't know precisely what it's called. They will get my business. Big chain? Take your "training" and barking insane students and soak in it.

As for people I know...forget it. I don't even talk to those idiots anymore about dogs because they know nothing about dogs except what kind of dog they have. Training? Vaccines? Food? Treats? Breeds? Not a clue and they are not even interested in learning. See, they are "just dogs", why spend all that time learning about them? And hey, the way you handle them is to beat them. (Only two neighbors do not think that way but the others? They have all admitted that they have beaten their dogs, some badly, for things those dogs have done at some point in time. Even my co-workers think that's how you "train" a dog to "respect" you. So they can go jump in a lake because all the while they are smirking at me and mocking me and laughing at me for my more positive, PATIENT training and the raw diet, I think to myself, "You all really have no idea just how stupid you truly are. Keep laughing, (censored) because one day? Your dog is going to pay you back the next time you hit it." 

Then we'll see who's laughing.


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## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

SerenityFL said:


> I find that when I do go in to a pet store looking for something, I'm very selective about the pet store I go to anymore. Those big chains? Full of unedcuated people. It's a bunch of what they think not what is fact.
> 
> I go to one called Pet Supermarket that's not too far because a) they ALWAYS greet me when I walk through the door, (if you lived in Miami you would understand why this is huge), b) never question and c) always help me find what I want and actually KNOW what it is I'm asking for even if I don't know precisely what it's called. They will get my business. Big chain? Take your "training" and barking insane students and soak in it.


i do go to the chain pet stores, because around here it seems the home-grown ones sell puppy mill dogs. I don't ask anyone for advice on anything, and I don't do their training classes, but I do support a store that allows rescues to come on the weekends with dogs, and whose animal displays contain cats from a local rescue.

The folks at the store i normally go to are friendly, and they do know who I am since I go there at least once a week. But they are usually young - teenagers just making a buck and may or may not know a teacup poodle from a Rottweiler.

But some of their products are horrible. They don't do what they claim, and I have bought stuff that actually hurt my dogs. But if I am looking for a dog bed, or a dog hair thingy, I will go there simply because I cannot buy products from a puppy mill store, and I do admire their willlingness to help the local rescue groups.

I found Snorkels in a chain pet store!

Edited to add: I do have issues sometimes with my dogs in there, but it's normall people letting their kids run up to my dogs and manhandle them. I'm pretty sure Rebel wouldn't snap, but he gets visibly upset, and Snorkels WILL snap when she's approached like that. So I have had a few confrontations in pet stores with parents who can't/won't manage their children.

By contrast, we were at the dog park today and a really good dad and his 2 year old had a lovely interaction with both dogs - including Snorkels, who is very standoffish. That little tiny kid knew just what to do. He sat his little butt on the ground on her level and put his hand out a little bit, and she walked right up to him. It almost made me cry, seriously.


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## SilverBeat (Jan 16, 2011)

Feeding? Oh yes I am with you on feeding. I haven't brought it up in conversation yet but I also don't hide the fact that Wallaby is raw fed. I'm never going to be comfortable telling people what to do with their dogs, training-wise, diet-wise or other, unless they ask. Then and only then will I let them know how great raw feeding is. It's not that I don't WANT to talk to them about it, rather, it's like xellil said, most people think that what they're doing is right; otherwise why would they be doing it?

Over-vaccination? Oh good heavens yes. So many vets are just trigger-happy, with a vaccination for this, that and the other. Oh and let's just give them all to your dog on the same day! What would be wrong with that?! I am also really sick of finding out that a lot of vaccinations don't do what their name implies [like the Kennel Cough vaccine, or the Lyme vaccine, etc.] and they only reduce the likelihood of your pet getting that disease. Makes me want to pull my hair out.

Later spay/neuters? Yes, I am with you, but I work at a dog rescue. And the people who run the rescue take every precaution to ensure that their dogs do not produce more dogs. Which means getting them snipped asap. I don't necessarily agree with this, especially for dogs who are in our custody [if someone adopts a young puppy we have them sign a contract and the dog has to get fixed before a certain age]... but the alternative is worse.

Dominance? I think it's a heap of horse manure that you, the owner, have to "dominate" your dog, in any way. It just sounds stupid to me. Among themselves, dogs definitely establish a hierarchy, there's no question about that. When we try to throw ourselves into that mix, and force our way to the top, we are just creating a myriad of problems for ourselves.

Breeding? I probably will never buy a dog from a breeder, the only exception being guardian dogs for my sheep, because it's very important that you raise those dogs with the sheep from puppies, and good breeding is important too. Though I would probably look at rescues first. 
That's not to say that I don't appreciate good, responsible breeding. For health and preservation/improvement of the breed as a whole, not just looks or to win some silly competitions. And I wish other people did, too, because I think the pet overpopulation issue in this country wouldn't be nearly this bad if more people cared about who and where they got their dog from, and more breeders cared about who and where their dogs were going. Responsible pet ownership goes hand-in-hand with that.



> So, do any of you feel like you know so much it is difficult to find anyone who can even have an intelligent conversation with you about dog related things?


Yes. I am very tentative when I talk to people about dogs for this reason. If the conversation is not going well I just smile and nod, and try to get out. Luckily my good friend who is a long-time vegetarian does not seem bothered, but rather intrigued, by the whole raw feeding thing. So at least I have that.


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## BrownieM (Aug 30, 2010)

SerenityFL said:


> Breeders: Eh, I've never bought a dog and I never will. I will always rescue any pets I have. Every last animal that I have EVER owned, (besides my rats although I considered them rescues as well since they were going to be snake food), has been a rescue. Meaning, I rescued them from the streets or from someone who was going to give them to the shelter because they weren't so cute anymore or too much work. (Really? A guinea pig is too much work?) (Oh, I forgot, my rabbits I had when I was little...I didn't buy them, they were gifts. From my parents....but I'm talking about since I was an adult.) So I don't have a lot of knowledge on breeders. Not trying to rub anyone the wrong way but if someone comes up to me and asks me where they should get a pet from, I'm always going to suggest a rescue, shelter or local HS first. What they do from there is not my business because it's not something I can control. They have to make those choices, I voiced my opinion, it's their life. I will do what I can to talk them out of back yard breeders, (found on CL), or pet stores and give them the horror story version of it....but, if they go to a breeder, reputable or not, that's what they do.


I hands down agree that adoption is the most honorable way to get a dog. That being said, there are legitimate reasons for going through a breeder. But, IMO, there are not legitimate reasons for going through an unethical breeder. It's either rescue or supporting the best breeders, and with due reason, in my personal opinion. This is why I say it bugs me when someone purchases a mutt from a BYB and thinks it's A-OK. 


Oh, and the spay neuter thing. I guess I should clarify that my issue is really that I don't think every single person needs to believe that they must have their pet spayed at 4-6 months. If you are a responsible pet owner and know the needs of your individual breed, I think your vet should discuss the pros and cons of spay/neuter. It frustrates me that so many vets prescribe early spay/neuter and so many people don't question this at all.
:smile:


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## KittyKat (Feb 11, 2011)

bernadettelevis said:


> He's like the cesar milan of horses only even a lotmore brutal..... and it freaks me out!


The Cesar Milan of horses is the Horse Whisperer(Pat Parelli), who he's met. They showed them on TV and it was interesting to watch them work together. Although i'm not sure where you get brutal from. Cesar isn't brutal.


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## KittyKat (Feb 11, 2011)

BrownieM said:


> I hands down agree that adoption is the most honorable way to get a dog. That being said, there are legitimate reasons for going through a breeder. But, IMO, there are not legitimate reasons for going through an unethical breeder. It's either rescue or supporting the best breeders, and with due reason, in my personal opinion. This is why I say it bugs me when someone purchases a mutt from a BYB and thinks it's A-OK.
> 
> 
> Oh, and the spay neuter thing. I guess I should clarify that my issue is really that I don't think every single person needs to believe that they must have their pet spayed at 4-6 months. If you are a responsible pet owner and know the needs of your individual breed, I think your vet should discuss the pros and cons of spay/neuter. It frustrates me that so many vets prescribe early spay/neuter and so many people don't question this at all.
> :smile:


One thing I read about sight-hounds was that it would be good to wait for them as they have such low body fat, and part of going through heat and whatnot is getting a bit more body fat. Only found that in one place, but I really want to make sure her growth plates set and her bone structure is solid. A dog reaching such fast speeds should get every chance there is to have good bone density... and the added fat is good for any surgeries.

She's also a show dog, and since she's being shown.... no operation anyways. I don't know about breeding her. That's a whole other thing to mull over with her breeder.


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## maplewood (Apr 14, 2011)

BrownieM said:


> So, do any of you feel like you know so much it is difficult to find anyone who can even have an intelligent conversation with you about dog related things?


Only on day's that end in y


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## CorgiPaws (Mar 31, 2009)

KittyKat said:


> The Cesar Milan of horses is the Horse Whisperer(Pat Parelli), who he's met. They showed them on TV and it was interesting to watch them work together. Although i'm not sure where you get brutal from. Cesar isn't brutal.


Anyone gonna jump on that can of worms?
opcorn:


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## jdatwood (Apr 13, 2009)

KittyKat said:


> Although i'm not sure where you get brutal from. Cesar isn't brutal.


He's not? Choking a wolf hybrid til it almost passed out is brutal. Cesar is an idiot. I can't count the number of times you watch him kick a dog to illicit a response or the hidden use of shock collars. Choking the hybrid was the icing on the cake for me though. Cesar does NOT belong on TV and had it not been for Oprah featuring him he would NOT have a successful TV career....

I don't know how people can watch him and think that he's doing the right thing.

I'll expand on this later but I'm going to watch a movie with my beautiful girlfriend instead of focusing my time on a douche like Cesar Milan


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## Angelwing (Feb 20, 2011)

jdatwood said:


> He's not? Choking a wolf hybrid til it almost passed out is brutal. Cesar is an idiot. I can't count the number of times you watch him kick a dog to illicit a response or the hidden use of shock collars. Choking the hybrid was the icing on the cake for me though. Cesar does NOT belong on TV and had it not been for Oprah featuring him he would NOT have a successful TV career....


Where did he do this? Which episode?


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## Mokapi (Apr 7, 2011)

Angelwing said:


> Where did he do this? Which episode?



View Today's Top Videos on Comcast.net | Featured Videos| Popular Videos | Comcast.net

There's the clip, for you. It is brutal. It was actually hard for me to watch. The hybrid/whatever is walking beside the "trainer" and suddenly he is choked with a sharp tug up and then kicked...and then after being choked, literally choked (you see him gasping for air) for 50 seconds, the "trainer" forces the dog to the ground and then starts talking about how the dog is "relaxing", and how the dog laying there gasping is "very important".


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## Angelwing (Feb 20, 2011)

It says 'this content is currently unavailable...'

If it's true, that's terrible. I've never seen Cesar abuse dogs. Not saying that everything he does is correct, though.


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## Mokapi (Apr 7, 2011)

Angelwing said:


> It says 'this content is currently unavailable...'
> 
> If it's true, that's terrible. I've never seen Cesar abuse dogs. Not saying that everything he does is correct, though.


That's odd...I was able to watch it another two times.

Here's a YouTube video (that should be available.) of different episodes where he's kicking dogs.

YouTube - cm.avi


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## Angelwing (Feb 20, 2011)

OH, I thought you meant he was full on kicking a dog or something.


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## Mokapi (Apr 7, 2011)

Angelwing said:


> OH, I thought you meant he was full on kicking a dog or something.


So...kicking a dog under its chin or in a tender area like it's stomach or groin is okay as long as he's not "full-on" kicking it?


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## CorgiPaws (Mar 31, 2009)

Angelwing said:


> OH, I thought you meant he was full on kicking a dog or something.


No, just "subtle" kicks to the tender areas. Totally excusable.

you mean there's a right way and a wrong way to kick a dog?!


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## xxshaelxx (Mar 8, 2010)

Angelwing said:


> OH, I thought you meant he was full on kicking a dog or something.


Oh, because I was totally under the impression that the implied football kick to the jaw was actually him just tapping the dog with his foot. No, in some of those videos, he full on kicked the dog. You can see, because in many cases, the dog actually MOVES, and not of its own volition, but because the force of the kick caused it to. He uses a lot of force in some of those kicks, and if I'd been kicked like that, yes, I WOULD ATTACK, TOO!


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## Tobi (Mar 18, 2011)

I very much dislike Cesar Milan becuase of the reasons in here, and the videos that have been posted, i don't agree with kicking a dog at all, every once in a while when i absolutely cannot get my stubborn asses attention i will tap him on his rear leg (think tapping on the shoulder) like hey i'm still here, but thats about as hard as my foot will ever touch my dog.


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## bernadettelevis (Feb 2, 2011)

I'm sorry i didn'twant to start a discussion on cesar milan again....


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

bernadettelevis said:


> I'm sorry i didn'twant to start a discussion on cesar milan again....


just bringing up his name elevates blood pressures....: (


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## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

I can't disagree with what anyone says here, but one thing i did learn from him was about calm energy - as someone who lives on the edge of frantic much of the time, that was a big eye opener. 

I probably should have known it just from the fact that I have owned many dogs, and it seems like common sense, but it was something I never consciously thought of, and now I do. 

If we are walking and along comes a loose dog that is looking a little too interested, I actively try to not get nervous or upset, take deep breaths, etc. Because it's just my nature to start freaking out about everything, and I did learn I have to take steps to stop that.


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## monkeys23 (Dec 8, 2010)

That video triggered my gag reflex.


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## Angelwing (Feb 20, 2011)

PuppyPaws said:


> No, just "subtle" kicks to the tender areas. Totally excusable.
> 
> you mean there's a right way and a wrong way to kick a dog?!


Not what I implied at all.



> Oh, because I was totally under the impression that the implied football kick to the jaw was actually him just tapping the dog with his foot. No, in some of those videos, he full on kicked the dog. You can see, because in many cases, the dog actually MOVES, and not of its own volition, but because the force of the kick caused it to. He uses a lot of force in some of those kicks, and if I'd been kicked like that, yes, I WOULD ATTACK, TOO!


From what I've seen and from that video to me, it doesn't look like he's 'kicking' the dog, more like he's tapping or touching the dog with his foot. Doesn't mean I agree with this way of training it just means I don't think he's hurting the dogs when he does this. I did not see a dog go flying or move from a kick, was it in that video?

Didn't meant to start any sort of Cesar Millan arguments.


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