# Finally ready to start feeding raw!



## OldGnarlHead

So I'm back! And I actually have a dog now! Her name is Cricket and she is a Shar-Pei Beagle mix (we think). She's been on Orijen since we've gotten her in June and now we're finally in a place to start feeding raw! We've been beginning to hoard meat (mostly just buying whole young chickens) and are really excited to start feeding her raw! Does anyone have any good tips before starting to feed raw?


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## xellil

Good for you! You have the chickens - that's all you need to start. Figure out about 2% of her weight and tomorrow morning start feeding raw  We can help with the amount if you need it, just tell us how much she weighs. If she's a puppy, figure out about what she's going to weigh as an adult.


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## OldGnarlHead

We're actually waiting until I get my first paycheck to start to be safe. I just got a job and we have more Orijen to finish up (it's so expensive we're using every last bit of it). She consistently weighs 44 pounds and she's 1y 4m so she's done doing all of her big growing. She's crazy active though. She could play for hours on end every day if we let her. Most days she gets around an hour of play (fetch, chasing, tug) with us or about an hour to two hours of play with another dog/dogs. We're also planning on enrolling her in play groups while we're at work so she'all be getting even more play. She's a play machine. (Kinda just like talking about my dog. She's the best :3). So what part of the chicken should I be feeding first? Also we can't seem to find any turkey to move onto that isn't super high in sodium (haven't found one under 300mg yet).


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## naturalfeddogs

Congrats on the new dog! Start with feeding the leg quarters, and I would save the backs for any emergency poop issues later, if too much organ was fed or something.

It can be hard to find unehanced turkey, but if you can find whole necks they are easy to handle, and you can add boneless chicken breast with them that you cut off the whole chickens.


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## OldGnarlHead

Yeah we don't have a lot of places around here to buy odd meat bits. We've only checked one place though but our local butcher block has some okay things. Right now they have no turkey or chicken which I think is odd but eh. 
So what bones are okay to feed her? I know any weight bearing bones are a no-no but what about like ribs or things like that?


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## OldGnarlHead

Also I've found duck around here, could I potentially go chicken, duck, pork instead of turkey in the progression of meats? Or even chicken straight to pork?


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## naturalfeddogs

Yea, if you need to you can go on to pork, then duck. 

Pork ribs, lamb ribs, and deer ribs are fine to feed, but beef ribs are really really dense compared to them. I don't feed any beef bones, but the others are fine for mine, and they are Aussies, just for size comparison.


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## OldGnarlHead

I'd post a picture of Cricket but it keeps having problems uploading. I'll go through photobucket when I get home. I'm probably going to go meat bumming today, will probably buy some more chicken and pork. I have to thaw out the chickens I have now to break them down because I don't have a stand alone freezer yet and we have a small space right now. 
At the beginning do you think I could feed Cricket some backs and breast to balance out the bone? I don't particularly want to keep accumulating chicken backs if I don't have to. Also if she is 44 pounds, should I feed about the 2% equivalent of her weight in quarters Or less until she gets kinda used to it?


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## naturalfeddogs

Just save the backs, and go with quarters. Much better meat to bone ratio in them.

Really, I don't go by percentages, I go by body condition when I feed, and knowing each dog as an individual. I also take into account activity level as well. Considering her size, try feeding two quarters at a time and see how that goes. You can increase or decrease as needed.

If you really want to go ahead and feed the backs, I would also add a couple of breasts at least with it, and if she seems constipated, add more breast.


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## OldGnarlHead

I'm planning on being really methodical until I get a good eye for things. It would just make me feel better. And okay! Quarters it is. Are quarters just the back legs or a literal chicken cut in 4's?


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## naturalfeddogs

Quarters are the thigh and drumstick combined.


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## xellil

Plus they are attached to half a chicken back. You can separate the parts if you need to.


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## OldGnarlHead

Okay sounds good. I just have to know cause I'll probably be cuttin up the chickens I have tonight. I'm really excited to switch her to raw. I'm hoping it'll make this persistent rash she has go away. I'm not going to tell her vet though, she was already upset when I told her that I switched Cricket from Hills Science Diet to Orijen. I might switch vets cause I don't like we much anyway.


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## xellil

OldGnarlHead said:


> Okay sounds good. I just have to know cause I'll probably be cuttin up the chickens I have tonight. I'm really excited to switch her to raw. I'm hoping it'll make this persistent rash she has go away. I'm not going to tell her vet though, she was already upset when I told her that I switched Cricket from Hills Science Diet to Orijen. I might switch vets cause I don't like we much anyway.


I change vets practically like underwear. I was intimidated and browbeaten by them for too many years to the detriment of my dogs. I don't know if the Science Diet you were feeding was prescription, but they make up to 30% of the profit of their practice from the drugs and food they prescribe.


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## OldGnarlHead

It wasn't not prescriptive thank god, it was just the sensitive stomach and skin kind.
So I went on a meat hunt and I HIT PAYDIRT. Here's a list of all I bought tonight:
20lbs of chicken quarters (.69 cents a friggin pound)
6lbs of turkey necks (they're 105mgs of sodium a serving but I've read that 100mgs is okay so I figured it wasn't that bad? It hasn't no other added ingredients) 
5.5lbs turkey thighs (are these okay to feed or are the bones too big?)
2.5lbs of chicken hearts and gizzards 
1.25 lbs chicken liver
All for $46 which is $1.30 a pound!

Cricket won't stop pestering me to get to the meat.


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## OldGnarlHead

Also here's our baby :3





And here is her being ridiculous. She had a shirt on because she wouldnt stop licking her rash and we didn't want to put a cone on her XD


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## xellil

Awww she's gorgeous! I had a Doberman that wore a t-shirt. Sometimes you gotta do what you gotta do. She's very beautiful.

And you did great on the meat; I would feed the turkey necks for sure even though they're a little salty. Just maybe not all in the same week. Turkey thighs are likely ok too although if you think the bone is too dense for her you can cut off the meat and feed it as boneless. I don't feed my dogs turkey legs because there's just so much heavy bone but the thighs have less bone. Honestly, I've never found thighs to buy. Only legs.


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## OldGnarlHead

Thanks! We love her to bits. When we first got her she had lost about 40% of her fur due to an extensive skin infection and over time her fur grew in beautifully.
And awesome! I need to find more turkey I can feed, so I might cut up some of the thighs to feed with the necks when transitioning. They can swallow decent chunks of bone and their stomachs will deal with it, right? Im trying to find decent enough turkey to feed while moving up the meat ladder. Also looking for a standalone freezer since all that meat nearly took up all of our freezer space!


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## naturalfeddogs

I agree, you did great on the meats! That was a great price too.

In the beginning, too dense bone can be hard to digest, and if the pieces are too large they may vomit them back up. The better their bodies get at handling raw, the better it gets. However, some bone can be too big and they just can't handle it. Part of the issue with turkey bones, being dense they do tend to splinter more, and sometimes break teeth. Just watch and see how she handles the thighs and go from there with them.

And by the way, great pictures!


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## OldGnarlHead

Yay, thanks! I wish there was footage of my face when I saw there was turkey necks. Like I did a whole double take and mini dance. 
Okay that sounds fine on the bone thing. Would it be okay to give her like chicken backs/wings/drumsticks and boneless turkey then? I'm pretty sure there was rib-in turkey breast at the store but it was expensive. 
Also, how do you know how much bone you're giving once you're on full 80/10/10 mode? NaturalFedDogs I know you like to eyeball it off of their poops but I'd like to be as on-point as I can at first so I can get better at eyeballing it. Isn't there like a table or something that has the average percentage of bone in a cut of meat?


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## naturalfeddogs

I wouldn't give any turkey yet. Wait a week or at least. One protein at a time, that way if there are any issues you know where its coming from.

There are some people here who can better help you with the amount of bone in each cut, honestly I don't really worry too much about it.


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## OldGnarlHead

Don't worry I know to wait. When I do start feeding turkey, what should I do about the bones, since the necks I got are a little too salty? 
Sorry for ALL the questions tonight, it's starting to get real now!


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## xellil

The necks are OK, they salt isn't that high. When you start feeding turkey you'll still be feeding chicken also so you don't feed exclusively turkey.


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## OldGnarlHead

Okay, got it!
Man my poor dog... when we first got her she had this awful skin infection and rash and sometimes it flares back up. The vet thinks it's flea bite dermatitis but I don't believe that at allit's on her stomach not her butt.. she's been biting herself all night and it's driving me nuts cause I want her to not be so itchy... it always seems to come back when she has a bout of diarrhea and we are at our wits end of what it could be... We think maybe some kind of food allergy but we have no idea. we're desperately hoping raw will help.


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## OldGnarlHead

That was actually one of my questions which sounds stupid but you always hear about the progression of chicken to turkey then pork, beef, organ and so on and I wasnt sure if you went chicken then turkey with no chicken, etc, but I get it now, it's like a pyramid not a line. 

We were going to get Cricket one more bag of kibble but now I think we'43 just going to start once she's done with this bag. Why not. I already have the whole house stocked with meat, I get paid in a week so we can buy a freezer to start stocking up on more meat. Why not! I'll have to consult with my significant other, of course but I bet he'll be down on not spending $50 on a small bag of Orijen. Can't wait to get a freezer and can't wait to start buying squirmy meats like heart and liver. Can't wait to have a freezer to fill with meat to feed my dog. 

tl;dr: I woke up at 6am and have been doing nothing except thinking about meat since then.


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## xellil

I'm thrilled that you are so excited about it. Your dog will be too. Going raw was a miracle for some of my dogs' allergies, and not for others. I have a foster dog that's been on raw for over a year and we're still working on her skin issues. I believe much of the skin problems can be attributed not only to food but to vaccines, chemicals, pesticides etc. we bombard our dogs with over the years, as well as a genetic propensity from inbreeding. The immune system doesn't repair itself in a week and some things just take time. I know how frustrating it is to watch them itch.


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## OldGnarlHead

She loves chewing and she's a very thorough chewer so I'm expecting her to love this. 
So why are pork and beef bones okay but turkey bones will splinter? Cause now I'm kinda afraid to try giving her those turkey thighs


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## OldGnarlHead

It's also really annoying when she wakes up at 6am and bites herself so much we wake up and we then have an excited puppy to then try to convince to go back to sleep.


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## xellil

Turkey bones won't splinter any more than the other bones. It's just that they are pretty dense; a lot of bone. I don't feed my 65 pound dog turkey legs because it's too much bone for him at one time. 

But thighs aren't like legs, I have no idea if it would be too much bone for your dog or just perfect but you can monitor. I might try a turkey thigh on my dog but I've never had one so I don't know. I can either get legs or necks, no thighs.


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## OldGnarlHead

Huh odd! Interesting that I found some, but alright on feeding them. We have about a week left of kibble so I'm so excited to start!


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## OldGnarlHead

So she is 44 pounds and pretty active and young so I was planning on feeding her about a pound a day (2.5%) but less than that at first until she gets used to it.


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## magicre

at 44 lbs, i'd start with 12 ounces or so.......


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## OldGnarlHead

Sounds good! I realized that a pound of food a day isn't a _whole_ lot. I bet just one chicken quarter will be enough at first. Im so excited! I cant wait to start feeding her the best food in the world


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## OldGnarlHead

Also, we want to start taking Cricket to a day care while we're at work/school so she wont be so lonely but they require being fully vaccinated with the bortadella vaccine too. Cricket isnt fully vaccinated and hasnt had her lepto or bortadella vaccinations and im unsure what to do because they're the only boarding place nearby..


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## Herzo

Good luck, she is very cute. My 2 cents is to wait with the shots for now if she will be OK alone at least until you see if her skin issues will clear up. My bullmastiff had some skin problems that cleared completely up after I switched her. But I do still have problems with my basset hound.


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## xellil

Please, don't get her lepto. I'm sure a lepto shot destroyed my Doberman's immune system. They are dangerous. They're all dangerous IMO, but lepto is one of the worst. I found that out because a vet refused to give my dog a lepto shot, back before I started feeding raw. She did it against the advice of her boss and told me she could get fired if they knew but she told me I should refuse lepto. That was a real eye-opener for me about how vets sometimes put $$ over the health of my dog.


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## magicre

usually we refer to the thigh/drumstick as a quarter

many dogs start out eating quarters and there are quarters that weigh close to , if not, over a pound.....

make sure you check sodium content on the ingredients page to ensure the sodium is under 80-100 mg per 3-4 ounce serving


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## naturalfeddogs

I completely disagree with vaccines, and especially lepto. It is a huge risk, and potentially worse than the disease itself. I refuse to give any vaccines period. Titering will show/prove immunity. All vaccines do is jack up the immune system all the way around.

I have one, who I gave all her vaccines from puppy through adult, including boosters before I knew any better. She now has permanent issues with intense itching, coat issues etc..... I figured it out after almost two years of thinking it was one of her proteins. LOTS of process of elimination that turned up nothing. Now, it's clear she has awful environmental allergies because her immune system is just going crazy. The vaccines have caused over stimulation big time. My others, no vaccines, no problems.


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## magicre

you and me, jenny, against all vaccines...add me to your club

vaccines interrupt a healthy immune system from creating the database of antigens it needs to build antibodies........

vaccines cause all kinds of skin issues, seizures, death......worse, a slow painful young death.

it is not co incidence that, by today's standards, a fourteen year old dog had a good run.

fifty years ago, it was more common for dogs to hit late teens and even twenties.

in reasonable health.

now, no. dogs are getting diseases, disorders, syndromes, the likes of which no one has ever seen before.....and, still, the association between these diseases, early death is denied.......
the science is there. common sense makes the correlation.....and, yet. people keep giving them and wondering why their dogs have issues.


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## OldGnarlHead

xellil said:


> Please, don't get her lepto. I'm sure a lepto shot destroyed my Doberman's immune system. They are dangerous. They're all dangerous IMO, but lepto is one of the worst. I found that out because a vet refused to give my dog a lepto shot, back before I started feeding raw. She did it against the advice of her boss and told me she could get fired if they knew but she told me I should refuse lepto. That was a real eye-opener for me about how vets sometimes put $$ over the health of my dog.


Jeezus yeah, no lepto... I showed that to my boyfriend and even he freaked out a bit. We might have to get her the bortadella shot if we want her to go to play groups, the dog park, and daycare... it upsets me... Do you guys even vaccinate for rabies? And how do you get around your vets not pushing it on you?

And yeah, I checked all the sodium levels and everything is fine. The turkey necks are 105mgs of sodium but I figured it should be fine. 

Went to the store, good prices on pork! I got really excited because they had whole duck! Then i saw it was enhanced... upsetting. But one of my friends who is also interested in feeding raw told me her boyfriend said I can have all of the organs from his deer hunt this year!! So excited!!


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## naturalfeddogs

I haven't even been to the vet with mine in a couple of years, but if you get titers done that's proof of immunity and rabies and other vaccines don't need to be given.


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## OldGnarlHead

What are titers?


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## magicre

a titre measures antibodies in the blood.

my opinion....study immunity so you're not afraid of allowing a dog's system to work without interference.......

my other opinion, titres are a waste of money. a blood test is a kodak moment in time. if an antibody isn't floating by at that precise moment for the blood draw,
then there will be no antibodies in the sample, and you'll be getting inaccurate information.

if dog is immune, dog is immune.....it's like being a little bit pregnant. you are or you are not.

a healthy dog, exposed to rabies, distemper, parvo will grow its own database of antibodies.......and that database will remember everything.


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## naturalfeddogs

It is true that titers show a "right at the moment" type reading, but when I had them done it was the only way I was able to not have to get a rabies vaccine. I have also changed vets as well since then. He was such a jerk anyway. At least it did save me from a vaccine....


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## Herzo

Well you guys are braver than I am. I don't give them when I'm suppose to but I did give Marlo and Richter a rabies shot this year, it had been 4 years sense they had had one. I'm not sure I would have yet but I wanted to get Trixie out of a Shelter in a town about 50 miles away and they were not going to let me have her if my dogs were not up on there rabies shots. However I told then the Turtle I would not be giving any more shots because of her allergies. SOB's were still not going to let me have her so I just got our Shelter to go over and get her then they got the money and not the Sheridan Shelter.

OK long story but we have had dogs around here quarantined if they bit some one or are bitten and they can take your dog from you. At least that's what I have been told. A few years ago some ones dog got bitten by a rabid skunk and the vet locked it up in a horse trailer and wouldn't even let the owners feed it or go in there. I know it was over a month. The poor dog just wasn't up on it's rabies shot. So I am sort of I will if I have to kind of girl.


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## OldGnarlHead

For me I'd probably always vaccinate for rabies. It's just one of those things I don't mess around with, especially having studied it in my major.


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## OldGnarlHead

Just counted and Cricket has 5 days of kibble left!


Also, do you all think it would be okay to feed chicken hearts/gizzards during the first few weeks or would it be too rich? I know they're technically considered muscle meats but i wasn't sure if it was a good idea to feed it kind of right off the bat. Especially for a dog who already usually has kind of soft poops.


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## naturalfeddogs

It should be fine, assuming all is going well otherwise, and just give in small amounts at first.


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## magicre

i am a great believer in our immune systems..........and a great disbeliever in thinking that we can inject immunity.

that if a dog who was vaccinated is bitten by a rabid bat......vs a non vax'd dog who is bitten by a rabid bat........has approximately the same chance of getting rabies .....i would rather not vaccinate, because, then, i'm exposing my dog to two dangers, rather than one.

one, being given the attenuated or dead bacteria or virus.......and waiting to see if the dog develops a mild case, which can happen
two, the side effects, both short and long term, affecting other systems of the body because of the adjutants that are injected along with the vaccine.


if more people understood the magnificent....... simple concept, complex system we know as the immune system, i think less would vaccinate....

by feeding raw and not vaccinating, we are going back to a time before we ever heard that it was a good thing for dogs to live 14 years and think that's a good run.
going back to a time when seizures were not so prevalent, when cancers were not so creative and running rampant, before all of these vaccine induced tears and breaks and surgeries, the likes of
which i haven't seen ever......when dogs can get myositis......which is rare even in humans...

and yet why is no one making any assocation or corellation between vaccines and our ever sickening, chronically sub par dogs.....who die younger now than they did 50 years ago...


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## xellil

naturalfeddogs said:


> I haven't even been to the vet with mine in a couple of years, but if you get titers done that's proof of immunity and rabies and other vaccines don't need to be given.


It also depends on the state. In Texas, titers aren't accepted in lieu of rabies shots.


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## OldGnarlHead

I'll probably get there in time, I believe people do have such little faith in the immune system and I've thought that was weird. 

Also, we are just saying screw it and are starting Cricket raw tomorrow! (Presuming the chicken quarters thaw by tomorrow. If not tomorrow then Sunday )


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## xellil

OldGnarlHead said:


> I'll probably get there in time, I believe people do have such little faith in the immune system and I've thought that was weird.
> 
> Also, we are just saying screw it and are starting Cricket raw tomorrow! (Presuming the chicken quarters thaw by tomorrow. If not tomorrow then Sunday )


Good for you. I can tell by the way you talk you will be a successful raw feeder.


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## OldGnarlHead

:#33 thank you Xelil! That means a lot because I'm SO nervous! I wish I had as much confidence in me as you did. I'll probably record her (if I'm not too stressed) and post it. Her first raw meal is tomorrow morning! I think I'm just worried about her getting an obstruction from one of the bones but she's a really good chewer with her toys, but she wolfs her food down.


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## naturalfeddogs

Let us know how it goes!


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## xellil

OldGnarlHead said:


> :#33 thank you Xelil! That means a lot because I'm SO nervous! I wish I had as much confidence in me as you did. I'll probably record her (if I'm not too stressed) and post it. Her first raw meal is tomorrow morning! I think I'm just worried about her getting an obstruction from one of the bones but she's a really good chewer with her toys, but she wolfs her food down.


I tell this story until I know people are sick of it but I know exactly how you feel. I had a little dachshund... I was scared. I came across this board by accident and the light switch went on but the years of programming about bones and dogs were so hard to overcome. Now, my little dachsund had four teeth. I crossed my fingers and handed her a chicken neck and she kind of gnawed on it in a minute and I thought well this is not so bad, and then it disappeared. She swallowed it whole. I cannot tell you the angst I had the next few hours as I waited for that chicken neck to come poking out of her stomach, having shredded and destroyed all her innards. I was kind of shocked when nothing happened. It never came out, at least not looking like a chicken bone. 

And I have another story. I got a three year old dog, a larger dog, and his first meal was a chicken quarter. I feed in the yard. He was sniffing the chicken quarter when a car went by. The car was too great a temptation but he couldn't leave that chicken quarter. So he picked it up and swallowed it whole while at a full gallop. I had been feeding raw long enough that time that I never even worried about it. If it had stuck in his throat I could have pulled it out. But I do check for cars now before I toss out bony meat 

Your dog will do fine. If gulping becomes an issue, you can feed it half frozen or all frozen. But i would give her a chance. Don't hover over her; it might make her eat faster. I have a dachshund that eats just fine as long as no one is close to him. But if I start walking toward him, he starts eating faster and faster.


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## OldGnarlHead

Thanks so much Xelil! That really helped, and really helped my boyfriend too. I was just in the kitchen skinning, de-fatting, and breaking the quarters into drumsticks and thighs. We feed her two times a day and we want to still feed her twice a day so I figured it'd be fine? I was cutting it up and she was whining for a bit so badly! I gave her a bit, and she took off to go eat it under the table, and then came back for more, and I couldnt resist, so I gave her a few more tiny pieces and she LOVED it! She got to play with so many dogs today so she's probably super hungry (she had a breakfast of kibble but no dinner, she plays so hard I don't like fasting her for over 24 hours). I CANT WAIT FOR THE MORNING!


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## xellil

I feed twice a day, too. I feed the bony and far larger portion in one meal, and a smaller more snack-type boneless meal the second time. That way, I can feed bigger pieces of bony meat in one meal.


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## OldGnarlHead

Oh, interesting! I'm surprised that doesn't make their poops weird! I think Cricket will do fine, I think I'm the one who's going to freak out!


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## OldGnarlHead

I was thinking about this last night, why is lung considered a muscle and not an organ?

Just gave Cricket her first chicken thigh! She took a second before she realized she was allowed to have it, she was looking at us like she was doing something bad. She is licking the crap outta it, but she's finally starting to chew a bit on it XD she's so ridiculous. I really appreciate all you folks calming the fears and helping us on our path of raw feeding  I am actually not nervous one bit and am actually really excited (which is crazy cause I have an anxiety disorder and anxiety is kinda my thing). She's unfortunately not on the banket we laid out but like, right off of it on the carpet XD that'll be fun to clean. So excited she gets to have this kind of food for the rest of her life!

Just finished her breakfast! Xelil, you were right about the hovering thing. I went over to her to try and move the chicken to the towel and she put all of it in her mouth like "NO Mama!" so I backed off lol. Everything went perfectly well! Brought me back to the time I was first introduced to raw by feeding this little Boston terrier I used to dog sit. So happy


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## magicre

lungs don't secrete. organs do.....

you make me smile........before i found my way here, i listened to the instructions of someone on another forum..followed her instructions to the letter.
first meal:

pug horks an entire drumstick up so high, it hits my ceiling.
corgi mix is fine.

within three days, i had given both dogs cannon butt .

i am so freaked out, i stopped feeding raw.

but i couldn't ignore what i had learned.......so i found the guy who had been booted off every dog forum around at the time, and sought out his help.

once he was finished laughing at me, he got my dogs right......and i've not looked back.

here's something, though.....the bone...hard to wrap one's head around it....but dogs were made to eat and digest bone.....so, i remember reading a book, not really, and drinking a glass of wine.....

now, i still can't get over the sound of crunching bones...it's sheer lovely music.

you're going to do fine

we want our dogs to eat where we place the food. tether the dog and sit with him whilst he eats.......you can teach him to stay on the towel

she's used to sugary cereal food, so it may take a bit for her to eat. the one thing you do not want to do is let your anxiety travel down the leash....that's why
i pretended to read and drank wine....so as not to scrutinise, but still be able to watch.......and calm my anxiety.......


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## OldGnarlHead

XD the term 'cannon butt' still makes me laugh every time I hear it...

Yeah, sat on the couch on my phone and pretended not to watch her. It was great seeing her figure out how to use her back teeth to start really getting into it! Thanks for the suggestion about the leash, I don't think I'll be anxious anymore! I might just tie it to a table leg. 

Really now I'm just worried about the prospect of cannon butt *giggle* but I taught my boyfriend how to break down a chicken today so we have an entire chicken back ready just in case!

I was wondering if I could feed her the chicken wings? I know they're pretty bonybut I was hoping to use it as some bone when I give her some boneless turkey. I also used the breasts to make into jerky for her, as I know the breasts are pretty nutrient poor and most people don't feed them, and I have the rib cage left over which I'm assuming is also okay to feed. 

Also, is the poop thread still around? I'd like to see that for reference. She had a poop at the dog park and it was way smaller than usual and it was hard in the middle and soft on the outside. It'd be nice just to have a visual (albeit gross) database!

(I just keep editing old posts instead of spamming with a bunch of them lol)
Just gave her dinner. It took her much less time to tuck in this go around and she is staying on the towel! Yay! I can her crunch, crunch, crunching. She just had a major crunch that kinda freaked me out but I'd much rather hear crunching than no crunching!


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## naturalfeddogs

You are going to do fine. The wings are fine to add in with something boneless, as long as you don't have a gulper. 

The ribs are fine as well with something boneless, but alone they are pretty boney.


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## OldGnarlHead

Okay! Cricket's poop this morning was small and firm, but it was pretty orange, slimy, and mucousy. I'm assuming everything is normal, so I'm not terribly worried about it. Her energy levels have been normal and she seems completely fine. It's been a big change in diet, I figure it's to be expected. It feels great to finally be a raw feeder!


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## Herzo

It sounds like she's doing very well. I remember being worried about things also. However the only bad story I have is Marlo swallowed a large piece of pork ones and was gagging and gagging, I thought I was going to have to reach down her throat and pull it out. She finally got it down. She's not the best eater so I don't give her very large pieces of meat.

I feed twice a day also but I had never thought about feeding one large meal and one smaller one. I must rethink.


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## OldGnarlHead

Yay! I'm glad! I havent seen any bone fragments in her poop so she seems to be digesting everything really well. Cricket has been really thorough with her meals, which has been making me feel better. Hopefully I'll never have to pull stuff out of her mouth! She has been taking less time to eat, but still chews very well! I just finished skinning and partially de-fatting about 10 pounds of chicken quarters. 3434444444444434444 (<- Cricket says hi. She was sniffing the keyboard). I hope to start alternating fat and de-fatted meals after day 3 if her poops look good. I'm being careful adding in skin though, because her poops are usually so soft and I really dont want to risk the cannon butt, what with me being gone all day most of the time.


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## naturalfeddogs

Sounds like its going well!


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## OldGnarlHead

Aaaaand we've hit a bit of cannon butt! I'll be giving her a chicken back for dinner and probably breakfast tomorrow. Hopefully it doesn't persist. I might have not gotten all of the organ out of the chicken quarters, I'll have to be more thorough for a bit. Will update upon the next poop!


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## magicre

OldGnarlHead said:


> Aaaaand we've hit a bit of cannon butt! I'll be giving her a chicken back for dinner and probably breakfast tomorrow. Hopefully it doesn't persist. I might have not gotten all of the organ out of the chicken quarters, I'll have to be more thorough for a bit. Will update upon the next poop!


the kidneys are on the chicken backs.....

are you weighing? 

what are you feeding, exactly?
how much?

and why are we defatting?


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## OldGnarlHead

I've been trying to take all the kidney all out but I could have missed some. I have been weighing, she's supposed to get a little over a pound a day and we've been feeding about 12 ounces. I've been de-fatting because I read somewhere it can make them have big time cannon butt and to start them out on skinned and de-fatted chicken backs or chicken quarters.


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## naturalfeddogs

OldGnarlHead said:


> I've been trying to take all the kidney all out but I could have missed some. I have been weighing, she's supposed to get a little over a pound a day and we've been feeding about 12 ounces. I've been de-fatting because I read somewhere it can make them have big time cannon butt and to start them out on skinned and de-fatted chicken backs or chicken quarters.


Try either backing off that amount at first, and slowly build back up, or break the 12 oz into two feedings.


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## OldGnarlHead

I know nothing's really _wrong_ but stupid anxiety is making me worry. About nothing. I hate feeling anxious for absolutely no reason.

She has been getting two feedings, just gave her dinner, 3.1 oz of chicken back and 2 oz of boneless chicken thigh (she had a 7 oz chicken quarter this morning). We fed her late and she wolfed down the chicken back. Still chewed a bit though. She didn't poop when we took her out to the dog park a second time, and it was a very small amount of diarrhea (relatively speaking, that is. It was pretty mucousy and orange). She played with one of her dog friends and she is playing with a new toy, so her energy level is completely normal. Hoping this is a mild blip, as I have a 9 hour shift tomorrow and no one can let her out to poop during the day!

If she still has diarrhea tomorrow I'll definitely back off the amount and feed another back or chicken drumsticks.


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## xellil

Did she strain to poop? That doesn't sound like you're not feeding enough bone. You are right, it doesn't sound like anything major. 

When you say it was diarrhea, was it completely liquid or just soft with the mucus? Mucus indicates a little irritation of the intestinal lining. It's not that big a deal and will go away. 

And when you say orange, does that mean blood? A diet of chicken will make poops light colored and yellowy.


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## xellil

Next time, if you're worried, take a picture and post it.


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## OldGnarlHead

It was like brown poop color mixed with orange. She gets that color sometimes when she would eat rice and chicken, so I'm thinking the color is just the chicken. Definitely doesn't look like upper or lower GI blood. And it was all liquid, but not like a puddle, more jello/mucous like. It wasn't a lot, definitely not enough to be a full poop in liquid form. She hasn't pooped again tonight so I figure it's nothing terribly bad, otherwise she'd have pooped again. Or at least that's how its been in the past. She's still super full of energy, so, again, not that worried. Just the anxiety saying to me, 'She was perfectly fine on Orijen, why switch?!'. Thankfully I have you all and my rational self and my boyfriend to tell me it's completely normal and natural and she's fine lol. Just waiting for chicken ribs or something to come poking out her stomach lol. Just wishing I could be with her tomorrow. 
I don't have a way to buy just chicken backs besides buying whole chickens, do you think feeding just drumsticks for a while be bony enough to maybe clear it up, if it persists? I think I found chicken backs once, and we're incidentally going there tomorrow, so I'll look.

Oddly enough, taking a picture and posting it makes the anxiety about it worse. Like one of you will be like, SHE'S DYING VET ASAP and I'll be like AAAAHHH and stuff. Yikes, anxiety sucks lol.


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## InkedMarie

Got to the end of the thread...congrats on your dog; adorable!
I feed raw, in ground form, bones to gnaw on, some to eat, for teeth.
I said no freakin way to raw,no way, no how. Told Magicre in no uncertain terms that too lol. For awhile, we didn't get along LOL.

Three dogs, all on raw. Our youngest is 14 months old & has been raw fed since his first meal here.


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## naturalfeddogs

I think it sounds like a little irritation in the GI, from being a new diet with bone. Once the body adjusts at will likely stop. Just keep an eye on it.


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## OldGnarlHead

Okay, I figured as much. I figured I freaked out a little too much and gave her the chicken back because she didn't poop this morning so I just gave her the thigh/back part of a chicken quarter to give her the benefit of the doubt. Hoping she doesn't poo everywhere while I'm gone. Also, as I'm writing this I gave her breakfast, she ate about half of it, then horked it all back up. Then proceeded to eat the other half. I've read about this happening and I'm assuming she just ate too fast and didn't chew well enough. She's eating the puked up bit now. Already called work and told them I might be late. :tries super hard to be completely calm because everything that's happening is a completely normal process and there's nothing to worry about:

I'll probably give her a slightly frozen drumstick for dinner, just to make sure she chews.


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## naturalfeddogs

Mine will sometimes "hork" their food back up if they ate too fast, it happens. I just act like it didn't happen and they will re eat it.


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## OldGnarlHead

That's what I figured. I didn't worry about it too much and let her re-eat it. The roommmate said she still didn't poop (and she's a reliable two-a-day pooper) so I think I got a little too worried with the poop yesterday when I gave her that back. Hopefully she poops tonight!

I'm really appreciative of you guys holding my hand through this! I know I have nothing to worry about but she's my first dog and I worry about her so much some times. I'll keep updating, sorry if it's pretty exhausting for you guys lol!


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## xellil

ROFL! I love it when they clean up their own mess 

it sounds as if she's doing fine. As long as she keeps pooping without straining and her poops don't get too hard, and she doesn't get real diarrhea, she is doing ok. The mucus is not a bad thing, her bowels will adjust. 

She might be one of those dogs that goes awhile without pooping. I had a dog once go three days without pooping when they started raw. I have no scientific explanation for it, I just figure their bodies are so happy to get fresh food they are soaking it all up 

The only things that would make me worry are vomiting (not bile urps), diarrhea (not loose stool), or straining to poop and not being able to.


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## OldGnarlHead

What would the straining to poop and not being able to be? Like an obstruction or just way too much bone?


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## xellil

OldGnarlHead said:


> What would the straining to poop and not being able to be? Like an obstruction or just way too much bone?


Likely too much bone. Same thing can happen and a little diarrhea comes out. That can also be too much bone.


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## xellil

An obstruction is not that, symptoms include vomiting for obstruction but you will know your dog is sick and in pain. I've never had it happen and it's very rare. The only people I've known who have had a dog with an obstruction have involved socks, Christmas tree skirts, towels, and acorns.


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## OldGnarlHead

The dog sitter said she pooped!! (Never been so happy for poop before) She said it was very very hard and small so I think we're just going to continue on chicken quarters and see how it goes. Definitely think I freaked out a bit too much


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## OldGnarlHead

Okay, good to know, Xelil. Thank you so much! It's comforting to know people haven't experienced obstructions with uncooked chicken bones. Makes me feel loads better.


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## xellil

Isn't it amazing how important poop becomes? ROFL! If it's very small and hard, she might be getting a little too much bone. 

I had a dog that ate 8 cooked chicken thighs. This was before I fed raw, I freaked out and took him to the ER and they took an x-ray within about 45 minutes of him eating them. They couldn't find any sign of bones besides a few tiny slivers. And this was cooked chicken, not raw. 

Dogs have extremely acidic stomachs - unlike humans - and when they eat raw they don't have to worry about processing carbs so they become very efficient at dissolving bones. I remain in awe of it. We could never eat a bone, cooked or raw. Even after all these years, it's pretty amazing to me.


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## xellil

That's what you're doing by starting out with chicken. You're ramping up his digestion. As it works more efficiently, you feed harder bone.


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## OldGnarlHead

Xelil, you're so full of stories that make us feel better! I think I'm going to give her a small fat-on thigh if I can find one (she got 7 oz for breakfast, so I don't know if we have one small enough to add up to 12 ounces). Hopefully that will get things going normally again. I feel pretty silly for freaking out so much, hoping I didn't mess up the transition too much for her. She is super hungry right now and is offering tricks to hopefully get some food lol.


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## naturalfeddogs

Your not freaking out any more than any of us ever did, I promise! You are doing fine. Think of raw as a balancing act. You watch the dog, and let them tell you what to add or take away.


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## OldGnarlHead

:#3 thanks! I hope to one day be like you guys, being on here, reassuring the newbies that their dogs are going to be just fine! 
Today I gave her a 7 oz de-fatted chicken thigh (well thigh part of a quarter so it had some back in it), and a 5.6 oz partially de-fatted chicken thigh part of a quarter, because her poop was apparently super firm, so I'm hoping she doesn't get too loose of poop tomorrow/next day. I made sure I got all the kidney out of both of her meals. 
Also, we're probably buying a 7 cubic foot freezer


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## magicre

OldGnarlHead said:


> :#3 thanks! I hope to one day be like you guys, being on here, reassuring the newbies that their dogs are going to be just fine!
> Today I gave her a 7 oz de-fatted chicken thigh (well thigh part of a quarter so it had some back in it), and a 5.6 oz partially de-fatted chicken thigh part of a quarter, because her poop was apparently super firm, so I'm hoping she doesn't get too loose of poop tomorrow/next day. I made sure I got all the kidney out of both of her meals.
> Also, we're probably buying a 7 cubic foot freezer


you're doing fine.........even now, sometimes, i need re assurance......it's not rocket science, but it is balance over time......

being new, we read all kinds of things and my special pet peeve comes from those who try to overcomplicate things....

if the dog is straining and the stool is really hard, back off some of the bone......
if the stool is loose-ish or formed/soft - make sure dog is bright eyed and bushy tailed......and hasn't been drinking stagnant water .....

and then ramp up the bone a little

every thing is done by little amounts, because as you are new, so is your dog's gut. that's why we say go very slowly.

now, why you are de fatting the chicken is something i would ask you about...why are you doing that? 

and please stop.......dogs need fat....that is their source of energy....
don't worry about the teeny little kidneys present in a chicken back. they are too small to do anything to poops..


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## magicre

xellil has great stories...born story teller....

and all relevant

and two things are the most common for cannon butt or constipation....

too much bone. too little bone. 
overfeeding.

ok. three things


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## OldGnarlHead

Okay I'll be keeping the fat on from now on!

Also, I know their poops get smaller but Cricket's poops have been SMALL. I'm assuming it's normal especially since she's only getting one protein and not all of it yet but they'be been tiny little poops!


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## xellil

magicre said:


> xellil has great stories...born story teller....
> 
> and all relevant
> 
> and two things are the most common for cannon butt or constipation....
> 
> too much bone. too little bone.
> overfeeding.
> 
> ok. three things


LOL! I love it when it's simple.

And I have great stories because I've pretty much made every mistake there is. I won't even tell you some of them or you'd never feed raw. 

One day I know you will be helping newbies. We are back here because we want to help, so that there will be someone here when people find this place. naturalfeddogs has been pretty much holding this place down all by herself for awhile. 

The poops will look amazingly small to you for awhile. Then, they'll be normal. If they're way too hard, decrease the bone a little. One day you'll be amazed at how gigantic kibble poop is, rather than how small raw fed poop is


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## naturalfeddogs

OldGnarlHead said:


> Okay I'll be keeping the fat on from now on!
> 
> Also, I know their poops get smaller but Cricket's poops have been SMALL. I'm assuming it's normal especially since she's only getting one protein and not all of it yet but they'be been tiny little poops!


They will stay smaller than what you are used to because they are able to digest so much of their food. You aren't feeding all the extra junk added to kibble.


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## OldGnarlHead

Good to know! Her poops have been great since the mucous incident. I can't wait to start feeding her more proteins. Good thing I'm pretty patient.


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## OldGnarlHead

So just bought a 7.1 cubic foot freezer! Up until this point it's kinda been in the back of my head that we could always go back to kibble but NO LONGER! I cant wait to have a whole freezer full of MEEAAT! (which feels kinda weird to say as a vegan XD )


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## xellil

I very much admire vegans who feed raw. I know it's difficult to handle meat, but you do it for your dog. You will love your freezer. And yes, once you get a freezer there's no going back! LOL!


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## naturalfeddogs

xellil said:


> I very much admire vegans who feed raw. I know it's difficult to handle meat, but you do it for your dog. You will love your freezer. And yes, once you get a freezer there's no going back! LOL!


The point of no return! Lol! Your hooked!!


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## OldGnarlHead

Sometimes it's hard only because the reason I went vegan is because I hate how we treat the animals raised for slaughter in this country, and here I am buying loads of poorly treated animals for my dog. That'a why I like places like Hare Today, that actually treat their animals right. Also we plan on raising livestock for us and Cricket eventually! 
Also, it's pretty addicting going through the meat sections at the stores lol


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## naturalfeddogs

It is fun finding sales on meat at the store. Our Walmart will still sell meat that has turned green, and mark it way down. I once went through the check out with green meat for the dogs, and beer for Wayne(my husband). Green meat and beer. I got a couple real funny looks from the cashier. I just smiled and said " "thank you" and left. I know she was thinking "wth"?


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## OldGnarlHead

Lol the people behind me when i bought 35 pounds of chicken and turkey bits looked at me like I was a serial killer lol, I even heard one of them whisper 'whaat the fuuck' lol. I love the weird looks, I guess. Makes life a bit easier and funnier. Love seeing the reactions of people when they see someone break the norm XD

The fridge comes moooonndaaay!


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## magicre

OldGnarlHead said:


> Sometimes it's hard only because the reason I went vegan is because I hate how we treat the animals raised for slaughter in this country, and here I am buying loads of poorly treated animals for my dog. That'a why I like places like Hare Today, that actually treat their animals right. Also we plan on raising livestock for us and Cricket eventually!
> Also, it's pretty addicting going through the meat sections at the stores lol


you can comfort yourself philosophically that the food, whilst treated badly, did not go to waste.
that you are feeding a menu dogs were designed to eat.....

that you don't eat meat is a choice we, as humans, make and we are to be respected for our choices for ourselves.

that you feed your dog a species appropriate diet, even though it is against what you believe, is admirable.


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## chowder

I just made it through this whole thread and want to congratulate you and your pup on your new journey and new freezer! Don't worry, this will soon become so normal for you that you will be scavenging for discount meat at the store, eyeing road kill as you drive by, and thinking of where you can stash a second (and third) freezer in the living room  I was very hesitant to feed raw and these good people spent time and energy talking me into it. Now I have 4 dogs on it. One routinely horks up food and re-eats it, one is the type that needs way more bone then the others to stay regular (and if I give him too much, he won't poop for a week - so I have to be careful), one if picky and will refuse meals, and one will eat anything I throw on a plate. Every dog is different and you will figure your pup out with time - his needs and amounts. Enjoy it!


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## OldGnarlHead

That takes some determination to get through all... dang 11 pages now.. I can't wait to see how Cricket is with other meats and organs! Though, she is pretty willing to eat pretty much everything, so we'll see! She pooped yesterday morning but not since then and I'm trying to get used to the whole "it's pretty normal to not poop for a while" thing. Also wondering if a week is long enough on just chicken or if there is no sign of trouble in her belly if we can add in a tiny bit of turkey? Might try giving her a bit of heart or gizzard with dinner tonight..


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## naturalfeddogs

If she's been good for a week now, you can go ahead and add turkey. That's fine. You can try just a tiny amount of gizzard, or maybe one chicken heart for now and see how it goes. I personally would wait until after turkey is going well first, but that's just me. You don't want to add too much too soon, at the same time. If turkey is good for at least three days, give it a try. It sounds like things are moving along really well for you, so I think you will be fine.


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## chowder

I think I did chicken, then turkey, then duck then pork. One of my guys doesn't do beef well at all so he still doesn't get much. Mine love turkey necks - the bigger guys get the bottom parts and the little ones get the skinny top parts. They also all just go crazy for duck necks and do really really well on those. The turkey can get horked up if its too thick but they never do that with duck necks. I rarely ever give turkey drums and only to my biggest 95 pound boy. They seem to be really hard to chew for some reason. Same with turkey wings - I don't ever buy those. I'd rather save the money for duck or pork or something on yellow tag clearance at the grocery store.


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## OldGnarlHead

Okay sounds good! She'll have been raw fed for a week in three days now, so I'll wait till then before trying anything else. Ill maybe try adding a tiny bit of skin soon too. Cricket and I are having a sleepy day off. Its nice. 

So I have turkey necks and turkey thighs, are the thigh bones okay to feed? I know people generally dont feed turkey drumsticks because they're super bony.. Should I cut some of the meat off and introduce it as boneless meat with some chicken first, or vice versa with the turkey necks and some boneless chicken? I can thaw the thighs and post a picture of the turkey thigh bone next to a chicken thigh bone..


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## naturalfeddogs

The thigh bone should be fine. The only turkey bones I feed are thigh and neck. Since you have bone in those, maybe feed boneless chicken and the bone in turkey, if that's what you are asking.


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## xellil

OldGnarlHead said:


> Sometimes it's hard only because the reason I went vegan is because I hate how we treat the animals raised for slaughter in this country, and here I am buying loads of poorly treated animals for my dog. That'a why I like places like Hare Today, that actually treat their animals right. Also we plan on raising livestock for us and Cricket eventually!
> Also, it's pretty addicting going through the meat sections at the stores lol


Me too. I try to buy as little grocery store meat as possible, but I can't afford to pay $8 a pound to feed three dogs. It is certainly a quandary, because it feels very hypocritical to feed my pampered dogs animals that are cruelly treated. My one consolation is that feeding kibble is just as bad, or worse. At least with raw we have some control over the source of our animals. 

In the end, they have to eat as dogs eat and I do the best I can.


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## magicre

think of it this way....see how it tastes 

your dog is going to eat this way for life. 

if you stay on one protein longer than a week...is a good thing. there is a phase of adaptation........on a molecular level on up.......everything about your cutie is going
through a huge change 

it will start sooner, but, in a year's time, you will not recognise this dog, compared to any other.

in other words...breathe.....go slowly.......there is no hurry.......


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## OldGnarlHead

Yeah, that's very true, Re. I'm excited to see how she changes! So far all it's been is less drinking, less poop, and more licking of things. A little less super urgent scratching, which is good too!

So she pooped and I think I need to add more meat cause her poop was pretty powdery. Like crumbled apart in my hands when I squished it powdery. Maybe I should just start feeding thighs for a bit and see how that goes?



xellil said:


> Me too. I try to buy as little grocery store meat as possible, but I can't afford to pay $8 a pound to feed three dogs. It is certainly a quandary, because it feels very hypocritical to feed my pampered dogs animals that are cruelly treated. My one consolation is that feeding kibble is just as bad, or worse. At least with raw we have some control over the source of our animals.
> 
> In the end, they have to eat as dogs eat and I do the best I can.


Yeah, that's why places like Hare Today, while pretty expensive, I am fine with using because they dont use any feedlot animals or any 4D meats, and almost all of their animals are locally sourced. Makes me feel awesome promoting that kind of thing.


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## OldGnarlHead

Her poop was a lot more substantial this morning, was still pretty powdery though.


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## naturalfeddogs

Is it powdery after it has dried, or is it powdery coming out of the chute? If thats the case, its too much bone. If not, its normal. It will dry that way after a bone in meal, but should come out normal color.


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## OldGnarlHead

It comes out that way.


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## naturalfeddogs

Coming out powdery, too much bone.


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## OldGnarlHead

It looked better today on just thighs so I think we're going to stop feeding the drumsticks for right now and maybe through in a heart or a gizzard at dinner. 
But yeah it comes out a powdery yellow with some normal-poop-color poop.


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## magicre

OldGnarlHead said:


> It looked better today on just thighs so I think we're going to stop feeding the drumsticks for right now and maybe through in a heart or a gizzard at dinner.
> But yeah it comes out a powdery yellow with some normal-poop-color poop.


the yellow poop is both bile and the fact that the food source is chicken.....as you progress and the gut adapts......along with the jaw, mouth, teeth, etc.......the poo will normalise. for now, it's going to have more wild swings than it will a year from now.

back off the bone very slowly.......until you hit that amount , based on what you're feeding, produces the optimal poo

when you're feeding red meats down the line, you'll be giving more bone, maybe.....depending on how your dog responds to red meat. i know mine eat more than the 10% recommended guidelines which guide no one really LOL........but they eat a diet of 80% red meat.....


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## OldGnarlHead

Okay, will do! 
So we plan on making our meals ahead pre portioned. Calculating the percentage of bone is so friggin tiresome, so would it be best to estimate how much bone I'm feeding then have a bag of bony pieces and boneless pieces ready just in case the poop is too hard/soft?

She doesn't really seem to know what to do with the gizzard. It's like chickeny dog chewing gum, it seems! She just keeps chewing and chewing and chewing but never actually eats it!


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## naturalfeddogs

I personally haven't ever calculated or used percentages for anything, but that's just what works for me. I let the dogs tell me what to do, between poops, body condition and activity level. I suck at math, and it just made my head spin. 

Some foods are a texture thing that takes them some time to figure out if they like them or not. For mine, it was chicken feet. They played with them more than anything at first. Now I play with them. You can pull the tendons that stick out at the bottom, and make the toes move! LOL!


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## OldGnarlHead

Groooss!! XD Cricket has had dehydrated duck feet (it has always been my intention to feed her raw so we always stuck to very natural treats) and she loved those things. Talk about crunchy. She eventually ate the gizzard bits after I laid out her towel that she eats on. 

I think we're just going to kinda wing it. I really want to be super specific but it would take days to meal prep if we had to determine the percent of bone in every bit of food we gave her.

So we're super sure that Cricket has CPV and she has the warts in her mouth. We were going to take her to the vet but after reading about it we're probably not going to, and see if feeding her raw will help her immune system clear it up. She does have a broken tooth we still need a quote on so we may go in soon anyway.


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## magicre

are you talking about papillomas...?

if so, that is a virus and will go away on its own.

it can take up to two years. my pug had them. generally, once the dog has gotten these, and it clears up, the dog is immune from then forward.

we used fulvic acid and sulphur, finally.....which put his immune system in a better place.

maybe look into red marine algae........we also used that...L-Lysine was another one, as was chlorella/spirulina combo.

nothing worked for us...they took almost 9 months to clear up, probably on their own......

but once we put bubba on fulvic acid and sulphur, we figured out it was the last piece of his puzzle ...now, he's almost ten and healthy like bull.


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## Herzo

I had to play catch up also. Well sounds like shes doing good. You've gotten good advice. They are all better at giving advice than I am. Just to go back on a question way back when. I have never transitioned a dog with quarters, I'm not saying there bad I just at the time was not finding them and I could get packs of chicken legs and thighs on sale so that's what I have always used. I would give them legs for 2 or 3 feedings then a thigh then back to legs. There were no organs on them and now after using thighs, as I can now for some reason find them, I would still transition a dog with the legs and thighs. There seems to be more control with size and bone versus the quarters at least that's how I see it. I can't worry about the percentages like naturalfeddogs as it makes my head spin too. 

Keep up the good work. I do understand your feelings on how animals are treated in this country but remember we still treat animals on a whole much better than most country's do. I work at a meat plant in October for hunting season and have for years, one of the reasons I'm still there is because I can get wild game for my dogs and then they also give me tongues, hearts and livers for free. I just hate being there when there killing domestic, even though the young man that is doing the killing now is very sweet and good to the animals he has to kill. I just keep hoping with education and getting morels back into the country will help with big plants that kill things.

Long rant I know but I also grew up on a ranch that my father still owns and I still help out and we have always treated our animals well and I know lots of ranchers that do. My father has one of the softest hearts I know of and the best man I have ever known, don't tell dear hubby whom also has a good heart and hates to kill things. Just wanted you to know were not all bad. But I hate things to be locked up in feed lots, I like to see them roam.

I'm keeping my fingers crossed all her problems will clear up with her new diet.


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## OldGnarlHead

Yup, the papilomas. We need to go into the vet to get a quote on a broken tooth Cricket has, and It's going to be hard to not let the vet bully us around about them, as one of them tends to do...

And thanks for wanting to actually read through the whole thing, Herzo! I appreciate the time that had to have taken! She's mostly only on the thigh part of the quarter, which has a little bit of back in it, and she's been doing great! I dont think I could work in a processing plant like that, I think I'd get too sad.. Great opportunity for you though, getting all that free, glorious meeeaatt!

Cricket has been eating ~13 ounces lately (I say, like we've been doing this for a while, lol), we're slowly going up to 14. I know I should go a little slower with the amounts but as long as she doesn't have any problem with it I'm fine. She's hungry all the time right now and she plays so much I feel really bad feeding her so little. She's started to lose a little weight and it's making me really uncomfortable so we're going to try and take it slowly, but definitely get her to her daily feeding weight as soon as she can get there.


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## magicre

she's adapting. she will lose weight. 

the one thing you don't want to do is overfeed.....all raw fed dogs, with the exception of those eaters who simply don't care about food.....very few and far between...are starving.

and an oz either way sometimes makes the difference.

thighs are fine.....especially as you are feeding 13 oz per day........

two things:

1. all raw fed dogs are hungry all. of. the. time.
2. they will try to play you. don't let them. 

also, she may not be losing weight as much as she is redistributing her weight. raw fed dogs should be quite lean


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## OldGnarlHead

I mean on an average day she'll play hard for an hour and a half to two hours, and we're feeding her a fair amount less than we should be. Her spine has started to become evident which is really starting to bother me.. She didnt really have any fat to lose since she was already almost all muscle anyway. Eh, she'll get there...


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## naturalfeddogs

Once you get into red meats, weight will start to gain back. Like was said earlier, raw fed dogs are lean compared to kibble fed dogs. They gain most of their weight in muscle. Once you are at the right weight, you shouldn't see bone but should easily be able to feel ones like the ribs.


----------



## magicre

you will be increasing her food...just not quickly....

she is raw fed. she will never look the same again. people say my mastiff.....looks like a prisoner of war because she is lean.....

raw fed dogs do not look like any other dogs.......and weight will be lost.......she might even have a few other things going on as we go....

this is all part of the process.


----------



## OldGnarlHead

Yeah, I bet most people have never seen a healthy-weight Mastiff... I know a lot of people think dogs should be a lot heavier, Cricket's best friend is very lean and not overweight at all and a lot of people think she'a crazy skinny, so maybe I'm not used to what dogs are supposed to look like either..


----------



## OldGnarlHead

Well she woke us up at 5:30am cause she really really had to poop... Arne said it was 'maybe 25% liquidy'. Her breakfast thigh had a whole lot more meat on it than usual and some skin so I'm not terribly worried. Drumstick meals for today.


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## OldGnarlHead

A little more diarrhea, she was squatting to poop but nothing came out, but she wasn't straining. Sometimes she does that when she has diarrhea so not super worried. Still kinda worried about her losing weight though, can see her last two ribs buuuut I'm trying not to freak out about it

Going to still give her drumsticks for dinner and make sure her meals don't have tooo much meat in them for now. 

So she had just over 13 oz of drumsticks (which equals four, here) for her meals today, hoping to resume as normal tomorrow.


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## magicre

it'll all sort itself out. 

diarrhea can come from overfeeding or too much meat, not enough bone....

i think she might need more bone than you are giving her. 

i know you will be concerned about the weight loss, but this is supposed to happen. you just started.......she is going to go through all kinds of changes, not all of them pleasant ........but once
she adapts........oh, the reward is worth the wait.


----------



## Spy Car

You are feeding too much bone. That is causing all this GI distress, and hard and powderly poops, the straining, and the diarrhea.

PMR ratios call for 10% bone. It sounds like you are feeding more than 2.5 times that amount.

The so-called "cannon-butt" phenomenon is something only experienced by dogs whose owners who don't feed balanced meals. It is unnecessary and evidence that you've been steered onto the wrong track. More bone is not the answer; it is the problem.

Bill


----------



## OldGnarlHead

Spy Car said:


> You are feeding too much bone. That is causing all this GI distress, and hard and powderly poops, the straining, and the diarrhea.
> 
> PMR ratios call for 10% bone. It sounds like you are feeding more than 2.5 times that amount.
> 
> The so-called "cannon-butt" phenomenon is something only experienced by dogs whose owners who don't feed balanced meals. It is unnecessary and evidence that you've been steered onto the wrong track. More bone is not the answer; it is the problem.
> 
> Bill


dude, I already said that she _wasn't_ straining to poop, and that I believe giving her more meat made her have diarrhea. Also she's just starting out and less bone would give her _more_ diarrhea. Everywhere I've looked, not just here but EVERYWHERE says to start feeding with more bone because it's such a drastic change. I switched from thighs and drumsticks to just thighs and her poop looked loads better, but then I fed a large thigh with way more meat than her body was used to and now we've had some diarrhea. I know you advocate for being super precise with the meals, and agree with you for the most part with that. But she, and additionally I, are only a week in, and even I believe that you can't go straight into 80/10/10 or you'll have dog shit covering the walls and ceiling. 

Re, NaturalFedDogs, and Xelil have been doing this for ages and I doubt any of their dogs have had diarrhea in a loooooong time. Your puoost does nothing to help my situation, if you can even call it that, except make it evident that you read maybe three posts and decided to comment. 

I'll continue to listen to the raw feeders who have over a decade, if not two, of combined experience.


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## naturalfeddogs

Spy Car said:


> You are feeding too much bone. That is causing all this GI distress, and hard and powderly poops, the straining, and the diarrhea.
> 
> PMR ratios call for 10% bone. It sounds like you are feeding more than 2.5 times that amount.
> 
> The so-called "cannon-butt" phenomenon is something only experienced by dogs whose owners who don't feed balanced meals. It is unnecessary and evidence that you've been steered onto the wrong track. More bone is not the answer; it is the problem.
> 
> Bill


Bill......


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## OldGnarlHead

Going to continue feeding chicken thighs as usual tomorrow...

Man, how rude of that Bill guy.. I'm already anxious enough if I'm doing this right, if this is the right thing to do, already worrying about my pup enough, all of these things and he decides to take a stab at you all through my thread, and then tell me I am messing up and causing GI distress in my pup... I lost sleep over this last night because I was so annoyed/angry at him and worried about my pup! That is not how you encourage people that raw feeding is the best for your pups..


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## Spy Car

OGH, I've been reading the thread all along, biting my tongue, but knowing exactly how it was going to go at every stage (given the advice).

Feeding massive amounts of bone is a bad course. If you think that's rude to say, I'm out.

I'd suggest learning the rough percentages of bone in common cuts and feeding meals that are close to PRM ratios, as you will find things will settle out.

Good luck as you progress.

Bill


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## OldGnarlHead

Spy Car said:


> OGH, I've been reading the thread all along, biting my tongue, but knowing exactly how it was going to go at every stage (given the advice).
> 
> Feeding massive amounts of bone is a bad course. If you think that's rude to say, I'm out.
> 
> I'd suggest learning the rough percentages of bone in common cuts and feeding meals that are close to PRM ratios, as you will find things will settle out.
> 
> Good luck as you progress.
> 
> Bill


Oh, so I _havent_ been looking up a reliable source of information on the percentages of bone in meat cuts for the past two days, I see. Look, you have your opinions but I'm going to follow what Ive read _everywhere_ not just here. Keep in mind I've done over a year of research on raw feeding, PMR and BARF. If you keep contributing to my anxiety, I'm going to ask you to leave my thread, okay?


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## naturalfeddogs

OldGnarlHead said:


> Going to continue feeding chicken thighs as usual tomorrow...
> 
> Man, how rude of that Bill guy.. I'm already anxious enough if I'm doing this right, if this is the right thing to do, already worrying about my pup enough, all of these things and he decides to take a stab at you all through my thread, and then tell me I am messing up and causing GI distress in my pup... I lost sleep over this last night because I was so annoyed/angry at him and worried about my pup! That is not how you encourage people that raw feeding is the best for your pups..


He's been told all of this already, that he just worries and confuses new feeders. He just doesn't seem to get it.....I don't know how to make myself any clearer to him, that his way isn't THE way. Its his way, and there are other ways of getting the same results. 

You are doing fine, no reason to worry or stress over it. Everything you have experienced is normal to new raw feeders and all part of the process. Please don't let this upset you....


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## xellil

Awww, don't lose sleep. It will all be fine. Spy Car is rude. What he doesn't realize is that we all feed somewhere in the vicinity of 10% bone but no matter how many times he says it has to be 10% some dogs will do better with a little more, some a little less.

In my opinion, if she's squatting to poop and not pooping, that is straining. Too much bone can also cause diarrhea (which, if he had really been reading, would have seen that has been discussed).

Signs of too much bone are:
Rock hard poops
Straining to poop with small amounts of diarrhea or nothing coming out.
Sandy poop
Poop that is white as it comes out, or turns white almost immediately.

Do any of those sound like what's going on? If so, then yes I would reduce the bone some. If she has a normal poop later, maybe you just overfed her. 

And please try not to stress. Deep breaths  She will be fine. If you want to take a video of her pooping, or a photo of the poops that result, that is always very helpful.


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## OldGnarlHead

Anxiety is just a bitch. It eats away at you and sometimes things just poke at you and it sucks... 

According to Arne she had a great poop! All brown and firm with a little give! So we're going to keep on with just thighs and slowly upping the amount in general and hopefully lowering the bone! 
Also...
THE FREEZER CAAAMMEEE!!! AAAHHH I'll post pictures once photobucket stops being an asshole. I'm so excited


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## xellil

That's wonderful, both the poop and the freezer!


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## OldGnarlHead

I just got home from a long-ass 9 hour shift and I thought you said, "That's wonderful, poop in the freezer!" lol...

We're doing some meal prep today and we're going to be starting to add in turkey!


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## naturalfeddogs

Keep us updated!


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## Herzo

Sounds like you have her lined out. So I'll give a cheer to go to turkey...hip....hip!


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## OldGnarlHead

Sandy poop today, probably from the drumstick meals the other day. The bag of quarters I got are HUGE so hopefully that will help out.


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## xellil

OldGnarlHead said:


> Sandy poop today, probably from the drumstick meals the other day. The bag of quarters I got are HUGE so hopefully that will help out.


You are most definitely feeding too much bone. I'd go a day without any bone, or a very very small amount, like a chicken foot. I wouldn't give her a quarter. A quarter has more bone/meat ratio than a thigh because it's got a large drumstick and half a chicken back attached. I'd give her a thigh or leg, and then take another thigh or leg and cut the bone out and add it to it. But not today or tomorrow. She needs boneless right now.


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## OldGnarlHead

Okay will do tomorrow.


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## OldGnarlHead

Okay so I went through all her meals and took out all the chicken backs so hopefully her poops wont be bad anymore! Her poop this morning was much better, still half sandy but the other half was normal poop! Cause of this we're going to give her a few more days of chicken before adding in turkey. So excited to be giving her a new meat! I took the meat off some of those turkey thighs and gave Cricket a little taste and she didn't seem to think anything was different! I had to give her a little turkey being Thanksgiving and all. 

SUPER AMAZING UPDATE!! 
Those papillomas that I talked about a few pages ago ARE ALREADY DISAPPEARING! Which, upon doing some reading means that her immune system is starting to rev up and become stronger. I wholly attribute this to feeding her raw. She had so many popping up so fast on Orijen and after, what, almost 2 weeks of raw feeding she only has like two left! (she had one BIG one, one that came up so fast and got pretty big, and some clusters up in her lip) I knew that dogs who had papillomas who were fed raw usually saw them recede but I never had imagined that it would have happened this fast. If i hadn't have been sold on raw feeding before, I absolutely am now.


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## OldGnarlHead

Maaan some days those damn dogs really try your patience. Don't know what's gotten into Cricket lately but she's had her head up her ass, not listening, eating sticks, trying to eat walnuts, pulling us down hills, biting us, being an ass in bed, escaping the dog run and swimming in the lake in 35 degree weather... man are we going to be cracking down with the training here starting tomorrow.. driving me fucking nuts..


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## naturalfeddogs

Sounds like her energy level is up, and she's feeling fine! LOL!


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## OldGnarlHead

Yuuup! We did a bit of touch up training on her sit-stay with some cut up chicken and that went really well. We'll hopefully be working on recall and some loose-leash walking tomorrow. Im just really concerned about the eating sticks bit. We have the emergency money for an obstruction surgery but we really dont want to have to use it on that!

Also, there is a decent possibility of us getting a rescue kitty for Christmas so hooray for raw fed cats!

Worked on some recall in the dog run. She did alright. There was a lot of noise, someone was cutting down a tree so it was very distracting. 
Still very bony poop today so another day of boneless for baby. Arne made this very impressive spreadsheet in Excel where it has a table of the percentages of bony cuts and then it has a function where you can type in the cut and the weight of it and it'll calculate how much bone and meat is in it! I should post a picture! We should do one for the Maybe Kitty Christmas Baby too.


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## OldGnarlHead

Soooooooo Maybe Christmas Kitty Baby turned out to be a Black Friday kitty


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## OldGnarlHead

So started feeding Cricket some boneless turkey today! Her breakfast had a small drumstick in it today and she hasnt pooped yet today so we'll see how that goes. 

We have no idea how much little Moth weighs, but she is TINY! I need to weigh her, but I bet she's only about 5 pounds, and at two years old she's done growing! Awesome news with the little Mothball, I tried giving her some chicken bits today just to gauge her reaction and she ate 2 out of the three bits I gave her! I then mixed some more chicken and turkey bits into her wet food and she ate all the raw bits! We're already starting on switching her to set feeding times and all wet food. She came with a bag of Purina Kitten food (puke) but we're not really going to keep her on dry food for much longer. It's really funny, she came with a bunch of magnets from Purina and one of them said "Who knew _Natural_ could taste so good?" and I've now put it on our little mini fridge where we keep all of Cricket's bagged up meals XD The irony.. 

Cricket has stopped wining as much at Moth's door, we have some baby gates coming soon so hopefully they can start interacting a bit more, and we've started training Cricket 'leave it' and she's been doing great! So things are looking good for puppy and kitty! Will update on Cricket's poop and how Moth does with more raw!

Cricket's poop was bigger than usual and a bit soft, according to Arne. Hopefully she's getting through all that and I've gone through all her meals and have taken out all the chicken backs. Made Moth a plate of warm cat food with some turkey chunks mixed in and she's eaten a little so far. We're picking up her food for most of the day, giving her wet food in the couple of hours her food is out, and for right now we are leaving out dry food at night. She hasn't eaten a whole lot yet which is fine considering she just got here. So excited to have another member of our family and that we can feed her raw too!


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## magicre

you're doing great


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## OldGnarlHead

Thank you Re :3


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## OldGnarlHead

Cricket's poop was completely normal! Even a little bit soft. Today was her first turkey neck. I think since those are so bony I might go boneless just to be safe, and see how it goes from there. 

Also, our little resident Moth ate almost 2 ounces of turkey today! I think we're going to give her raw and wet food for right now and then slowly back off the wet food until she's eating all raw. For some reason I feel weird not giving her bones, like she'll be missing out on some really important nutrients. I bought some tiny rock game hens to give her once she's ready. She's so silly... She's in full play mode and going pretty crazy XD 

Cricket has been leaving the door to Moth's room alone a lot more today, hopefully things keep going well, we get the baby gates tomorrow and we'll be starting to keep the door open a little bit.


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## magicre

i am not a cat person......they don't eat bone?
and congrats...things look as if they are normalising 

stay on chicken and turkey this next week, now that you have poo normal.......

week after next, you can intro another protein.......


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## naturalfeddogs

OldGnarlHead said:


> Cricket's poop was completely normal! Even a little bit soft. Today was her first turkey neck. I think since those are so bony I might go boneless just to be safe, and see how it goes from there.
> 
> Also, our little resident Moth ate almost 2 ounces of turkey today! I think we're going to give her raw and wet food for right now and then slowly back off the wet food until she's eating all raw. For some reason I feel weird not giving her bones, like she'll be missing out on some really important nutrients. I bought some tiny rock game hens to give her once she's ready. She's so silly... She's in full play mode and going pretty crazy XD
> 
> Cricket has been leaving the door to Moth's room alone a lot more today, hopefully things keep going well, we get the baby gates tomorrow and we'll be starting to keep the door open a little bit.


Give moth some small bones. They are fine. Cats seem to adjust quicker to raw when started young, as far as handling new proteins easily. You will really need to be sure she is getting plenty of taurine, ASAP. Heart is the best source, but most red meats have it I believe. Even though they tend to take to it easily when young, they are, to me more difficult to feed due to their different nutrional needs. Without enough taurine they will be in trouble. I don't mean to scare you about it, I just want to make sure you realize they are different from dogs.


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## OldGnarlHead

Im hopefully upping the amount she is eating soon, since she you can now definitely see her last two ribs. 
Kitty just ate her fill of a plate of turkey, will defrost a rock hen and see if she'll eat some of that. We have no idea of her past so I'm not sure if she was a stray or what. I know of the taurine thing, which is why I was going to keep her on wet food for a bit just until she's chewing through bigger pieces of meat so her jaws can get through bones better. 

Also, Cricket's poo has been a lot better in consistency, but this morning her poo was like 75% black and 25% normal poo color. It wasn't a difference in texture and her energy level is fine so I don't think it's upper GI bleeding and I don't know if I should worry about it too much..?


----------



## xellil

OldGnarlHead said:


> Im hopefully upping the amount she is eating soon, since she you can now definitely see her last two ribs.
> Kitty just ate her fill of a plate of turkey, will defrost a rock hen and see if she'll eat some of that. We have no idea of her past so I'm not sure if she was a stray or what. I know of the taurine thing, which is why I was going to keep her on wet food for a bit just until she's chewing through bigger pieces of meat so her jaws can get through bones better.
> 
> Also, Cricket's poo has been a lot better in consistency, but this morning her poo was like 75% black and 25% normal poo color. It wasn't a difference in texture and her energy level is fine so I don't think it's upper GI bleeding and I don't know if I should worry about it too much..?


It's probably the turkey. Was it black black or just dark? A diet of chicken makes poop a lighter yellow color. Other meats make it darker.


----------



## OldGnarlHead

I figured it was probably just the darker meat. It was a very very dark brown, it could have just looked darker in contrast with the lighter poop. I'll keep an eye on it. My phone is dead so I might not be able to take a picture but I'll update next time she poops. 

Also, got the baby gates in today. Moth didn't mind Cricket even when she was freaking out so that's at least a better sign. We're thinking of letting kitty explore the apartment at night (Cricket sleeps with us) and slowly starting to open the door as the days go by with a blanket over the baby gate. I think it'll take a while, but I think if we keep at it they'll be able to at least ignore each other. Or at the very least ignore the cat's places of the apartment, if that's what it comes to. I don't know if you all particularly care about the cat updates but it makes things a little more clear in my mind. Gotta stay positive or it'll never work out!


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## xellil

Blood would tend to affect the stool differently, I think, and not with a dividing line. I've seen poops where the color is markedly different, and it's always been because of chicken but it's interesting because you can see the separate meals in the poop!

I hope the kitty integration goes well. Sounds like you're off to a good start.


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## magicre

you can increase her food by an ounce per day............

what did crickett eat yesterday

is she only eating chicken and turkey?


----------



## OldGnarlHead

Yeah, she's only been having chicken and turkey. Ill definitely be upping her amount, then. I wasn't sure how fast I could increase her amount per day. She's at 15 ounces today so tomorrow I'll make her meal 16. I think the next meal I have portioned out has another turkey neck. She had boneless today so I'll do the math and see if that would be good to do.. it's not too hard to fiddle with the meals. I just have to learn to freeze everything in better proportions so I don't have to take forever thawing the whooole mass of meat to cut a little bit off. Also, her energy levels are definitely fine, as I am typing this to the raucous sounds of a puppy play date going on. I'll keep a close eye on the poop and let you guys know how it goes, especially with giving her more food.


----------



## magicre

let me know what her stool looks like tomorrow?

how much does she weigh?


----------



## InkedMarie

magicre said:


> let me know what her stool looks like tomorrow?
> 
> how much does she weigh?


LOL, this sounds like our past conversations, both with Gemma & O'Malley!


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## OldGnarlHead

Will do, and she weighed 44 last we were at the vet but I'm not sure what she weighs now. All I know is I couldn't feel her spine or see her last ribs before. I'll start leaving she skin on her meals now, as long as she can handle it.

I forgot to mention that she's been getting a _lot _of dehydrated beef lung cause that's what we use as her training treats.


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## magicre

leave the skin on.....dogs need fat.

but she doesn't need more than what you're about to feed her. please don't increase further than 15 ounces........

it will take some time to get used to what a raw fed dog looks like........they look nothing like kibble fed dogs. and yes, you can see the last two ribs...and feel the spine...that is a good thing.


----------



## OtherGuy

xellil said:


> You are most definitely feeding too much bone. I'd go a day without any bone, or a very very small amount, like a chicken foot. I wouldn't give her a quarter. A quarter has more bone/meat ratio than a thigh because it's got a large drumstick and half a chicken back attached. I'd give her a thigh or leg, and then take another thigh or leg and cut the bone out and add it to it. But not today or tomorrow. She needs boneless right now.


Isn't the conclusion that OGH is "definitely feeding too much bone" exactly the same conclusion reached by the poster you said was "rude" for saying so?

Seems like he got banned for giving the correct advice. Yes?

Maybe banning people who give good advice isn't such a good idea.


----------



## magicre

OtherGuy said:


> Isn't the conclusion that OGH is "definitely feeding too much bone" exactly the same conclusion reached by the poster you said was "rude" for saying so?
> 
> Seems like he got banned for giving the correct advice. Yes?
> 
> Maybe banning people who give good advice isn't such a good idea.


stirring the pot?

OGH......the beef lung is possibly the reason the poo is so dark........and that also counts as food......


----------



## xellil

OtherGuy said:


> Isn't the conclusion that OGH is "definitely feeding too much bone" exactly the same conclusion reached by the poster you said was "rude" for saying so?
> 
> Seems like he got banned for giving the correct advice. Yes?
> 
> Maybe banning people who give good advice isn't such a good idea.


I don't know. I didn't ban him. I didn't know he was banned. You'll have to take that up with someone else. I'm not an admin here.


----------



## naturalfeddogs

OtherGuy said:


> Isn't the conclusion that OGH is "definitely feeding too much bone" exactly the same conclusion reached by the poster you said was "rude" for saying so?
> 
> Seems like he got banned for giving the correct advice. Yes?
> 
> Maybe banning people who give good advice isn't such a good idea.


He wasn't banned for his advice, it was his inappropriate, inconsiderate way of giving it. I take into account others feelings here, and you will he banned as well if you continue....


----------



## OldGnarlHead

Look, from all the things I've read, it's a REALLY BAD IDEA to start of straight 80/10/10. Yes I am cutting back the bone, slowly. Cause that's what you're supposed to do. I'd really appreciate if my thread didn't become a warzone...

Her poo this morning was small and a normal dark brown color, according to my boyfriend. She had a tiny bit of mucous poo this evening but this is her first introduction to a new bone source (turkey necks) so I'm not too worried. I don't know what tomorrow's meal is but it'll be lighter bone, if not maybe boneless. 

And from everything I've seen seeing the spine and the last two ribs means your dog is getting too skinny, and it's kinda bothering me... I mean she's probably somewhere around a 4 on the Purina uke: dog body chart which is fine but she's definitely usually a 5. Also I've been leaving a little skin on just not a lot since I've read that leaving all the skin on from the start can lead to cannon butt. Next meal prep I'll start leaving it all on. I prepped that little game hen yesterday and she got a lot of skin from that cause she was being cute, lol. But I guess I'll have some faith in you, Re, and keep her around 15-16 ounces for a little longer. 

I really appreciate you all being here for me. You all really quell the anxiety. I hope that you all think that her transition isn't going horribly, at least.

LOL just posted this and saw the little : puke : thing I did turned into an animation XD that's great.


----------



## xellil

I keep my dachshund at a body scale of four, on the vet's advice for his back. At first he looked like a starvation victim to me. Just skin and bones. So I know what you mean. After he was on raw for a year or so he looked better at a body scale four because his muscles were different, or something. I don't know it's hard to explain. His ribs and spine and hips were still there like always but he just didn't look deprived. 

He got fat recently (found the pecan tree) and we are trying to get back down to a four as quickly as is safe. But what my vet said to my horrified look when he told me that he was a perfect weight way back when I first got him is that we're too used to seeing fat dogs so a lean and lithe dog looks bad to us. I'm not a great fan of vets about a lot of things but that made sense.


----------



## OldGnarlHead

:deep breath: okay. I'll stop freaking out about it, and I'll keep going more slowly with putting her up to her goal feeding amount. For some reason having her at 16 ounces just makes me feel more comfy. 

Kitty has been eating her raw food with gusto lately! She'll wolf down a whole plate in two minutes. She's awesome. I'm making her food into bigger chunks to get her used to chewing more. In a week or so she gets a tip of that little game hen's wing. She already ate a little bit of cartilage, which is great. I want to see if Walmart will have any chicken feet soon...


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## magicre

i have a french mastiff.......looks like a prisoner of war......we do this on purpose.....she's not starving. she's a raw fed dog........they look entirely different than kibble dogs......no fillers in the food goes directly to where it's needed, without needing to be sorted in the gut and other organs.....

they don't get layers of fat around their organs; thus, a leaner dog. we are so used to kibble dogs that we look at our dogs and think, oh no, i'm starving them......

my newest addition, a havana silk aka havanese.......has a bit of a pot belly........and we will be cutting his food back.......because they need to be lean lean lean...honest........and yes. it does take 
a bit of getting used to.....

thing is.....as xellil said, the body changes...so , in a year, when transition is complete, and yes it takes that long, your dog will have an entirely different body........

at some point, you're going to want to feed big chunks, as long as she doesn't swallow them whole......and does the chomp chomp swallow.......if you give her complicated foods, like half a game hen, she'll learn to use her canines to rip and tear...keeps the teeth clean.....

later, you'll be adding red meat.......red meat is richer and generally requires a wee bit more bone........and that's when you'll see the real changes come....

for now, they never look right...and we blame anything and everything on the food......until we learn to discern ......

so the weight loss is normal.....the 'skinniness' is normal........she's normal.....

you can take her to 16 ounces, but it's too much food for the long run....for now, whilst she is on gentle proteins, 16 oz will work......just remember, this is not about your
comfort or your vet or your aunt mildred ....


----------



## OtherGuy

OGH, I'd concur with what the others are saying about weight. A raw fed dog will naturally appear to "lean out," but will—at the same time— begin to stack on muscle. After a time I suspect your "body image" expectations for what a fit dog ought to look like will begin to change, and that hitting a "5" may become the the trigger point where you feel a dog is starting to hit the upper limits of healthful weight (as opposed to being the mid-point or the "ideal").

Building strong muscle mass and keeping weight down (both hallmarks of a raw diet) will reduce stress on joints and be a huge benefit to dogs as they age.

We've become used to seeing very obese dogs as a "norm" in our society. It often does take a little mental re-think (and enduring some commentary from others) before accepting dogs should not be carrying around thick layers of fat.

Lean is good.


----------



## OldGnarlHead

I mean she's supposed to get nearly 18 ounces a day eventually... Based on her activity and her weight.. but yeah Moth will learn and Cricket has been doing good


----------



## magicre

there is no 'supposed to get'........based on the 'guidelines', there are places to start....there are dogs who weigh 44 lbs and eat almost 2 lbs a day.

and then there are dogs who weigh 44 lbs who eat 12-14 ounces a day.

the lean ness of a dog determines how much food, other than in the beginning when we feed more gentle, less dense proteins......

metabolisms are different, as is age, and condition of the body, genetics, etc....just as with humans.

so we start with a little less to give the gut time to adapt........we allow for the changing of appearance.....even weight loss......and watch and see

we simply do not want to overload her body during this phase.

she may end up eating more than 18 oz.....and quite possibly, less.........

numbers and guidelines are fine, unless they are carved in stone. i caution people not to do that.


----------



## OtherGuy

OldGnarlHead said:


> I mean she's supposed to get nearly 18 ounces a day eventually... Based on her activity and her weight.. but yeah Moth will learn and Cricket has been doing good


Palpate your dog's ribs to get a very good standard of measure for how much of a fat layer (if any) she is carrying. Doing this will give you a very sure guide to body condition, and is better than weight or relying onvisual cues. Although looking down-from overhead—to see the presence (or lack thereof) or a "tuck" (identifiable waistline) is a good secondary measure by which to measure condition.

Then feed in accordance with the condition you deem optimal. It sounds like the raw feeders in this group are united in feeling a leaner (but well muscled) body-type is in a dog's best interest. But adjust feeding based on your judgement of your dog's condition. Don't worry, you will nail it.


----------



## OtherGuy

magicre said:


> there is no 'supposed to get'........based on the 'guidelines', there are places to start....there are dogs who weigh 44 lbs and eat almost 2 lbs a day.
> 
> and then there are dogs who weigh 44 lbs who eat 12-14 ounces a day.
> 
> the lean ness of a dog determines how much food, other than in the beginning when we feed more gentle, less dense proteins......
> 
> metabolisms are different, as is age, and condition of the body, genetics, etc....just as with humans.
> 
> so we start with a little less to give the gut time to adapt........we allow for the changing of appearance.....even weight loss......and watch and see
> 
> we simply do not want to overload her body during this phase.
> 
> she may end up eating more than 18 oz.....and quite possibly, less.........
> 
> numbers and guidelines are fine, unless they are carved in stone. i caution people not to do that.


Agreed. No formula for feeding amounts is adequate to rely on strictly. A raw fed dog may typically eat 2% of body weight, but such a ration should only serve as a starting point. 

Feed by condition. Adjust as body condition changes, and/or if exercise routines change. 

And it is definately easier on the dog to slightly underfeed than it is to over feed.


----------



## OldGnarlHead

Okay will do  Tomorrow is MEAT DAAY as we call it here, where I prepare all her meals. Im pretty sure I have enough for two weeks of meals so this week will be just chicken and turkey and next week will be adding in some pork. I bought a whole Boston butt and I didnt realize that the whole scapula was in it! so that was a great time getting the meat off of it. I actually really love working with the meat, I kinda see it as a hobby now. Kinda weird, but all fun! I bought a whole turkey yesterday and I was wondering what turkey bones I could feed? I know the necks are okay but what about the thighs, drumsticks, wings, ribs, etc? 

I just gave kitty a whole chunk of meat to eat, she gnawed through about half of it. Im going to pick it up and give the rest to her later. So proud of her. I had a thought yesterday that I feel so blessed to have two raw fed pets. 

Its been kinda rough with the two of them lately. Cricket has started growling at Moth, but the lady we got her from said that it's normal as long as it's not real aggression. We were thinking we might have to give her back but the lady said give it another week so we will. We plan on letting the two meet (supervised and leashed of course) and we're hoping Moth will beat Cricket up to show her who's boss. Kitty has a vet appointment soon, so we'll be able to finally find out how much she weighs, which will be awesome. 

hooray for days off. It's been a long week.


----------



## OtherGuy

OldGnarlHead said:


> Okay will do  Tomorrow is MEAT DAAY as we call it here, where I prepare all her meals. Im pretty sure I have enough for two weeks of meals so this week will be just chicken and turkey and next week will be adding in some pork. I bought a whole Boston butt and I didnt realize that the whole scapula was in it! so that was a great time getting the meat off of it. I actually really love working with the meat, I kinda see it as a hobby now. Kinda weird, but all fun! I bought a whole turkey yesterday and I was wondering what turkey bones I could feed? I know the necks are okay but what about the thighs, drumsticks, wings, ribs, etc?
> 
> I just gave kitty a whole chunk of meat to eat, she gnawed through about half of it. Im going to pick it up and give the rest to her later. So proud of her. I had a thought yesterday that I feel so blessed to have two raw fed pets.
> 
> Its been kinda rough with the two of them lately. Cricket has started growling at Moth, but the lady we got her from said that it's normal as long as it's not real aggression. We were thinking we might have to give her back but the lady said give it another week so we will. We plan on letting the two meet (supervised and leashed of course) and we're hoping Moth will beat Cricket up to show her who's boss. Kitty has a vet appointment soon, so we'll be able to finally find out how much she weighs, which will be awesome.
> 
> hooray for days off. It's been a long week.


If this will be the first pork, I'd recommend heavily trimming the fat (and saving for future use). Fat is an awesome and vital source of energy for dogs, but after eating a kibble diet (carb heavy) they need to undergo a lot of metabolic changes—from releasing different digestive enzymes from the pancreas to cellular changes in the mitochondria—that take time to condition dogs to fat burning.

I realize you've probably seen pork as a next stage item in a "progression," but my experience is that many dogs need time to get used to pork (much more so than beef). I'd advise making pork a late-stage protein as opposed to an early one. If you go ahead do trim lean for now.

As your dogs get fat conditioned the fattiness of pork butt becomes a huge positive. It is cheap and available. But is a tricky protein for many dogs. Many (many) posters following this "progression" have found themselves with flatulent dogs after feeding pork early. Beef (like lean trimmed beef heart) is an easier protein IMO. Either way, work up the fat slowly.


----------



## OldGnarlHead

I can get tenderloin for cheap around here so I might get one of those to start her off with. Those are pretty lean. And I will trim and save the fat. 

Today is exhausting... we don't think we'll be able to keep moth.. its been a rough day..


----------



## naturalfeddogs

OldGnarlHead said:


> Okay will do  Tomorrow is MEAT DAAY as we call it here, where I prepare all her meals. Im pretty sure I have enough for two weeks of meals so this week will be just chicken and turkey and next week will be adding in some pork. I bought a whole Boston butt and I didnt realize that the whole scapula was in it! so that was a great time getting the meat off of it. I actually really love working with the meat, I kinda see it as a hobby now. Kinda weird, but all fun! I bought a whole turkey yesterday and I was wondering what turkey bones I could feed? I know the necks are okay but what about the thighs, drumsticks, wings, ribs, etc?
> 
> I just gave kitty a whole chunk of meat to eat, she gnawed through about half of it. Im going to pick it up and give the rest to her later. So proud of her. I had a thought yesterday that I feel so blessed to have two raw fed pets.
> 
> Its been kinda rough with the two of them lately. Cricket has started growling at Moth, but the lady we got her from said that it's normal as long as it's not real aggression. We were thinking we might have to give her back but the lady said give it another week so we will. We plan on letting the two meet (supervised and leashed of course) and we're hoping Moth will beat Cricket up to show her who's boss. Kitty has a vet appointment soon, so we'll be able to finally find out how much she weighs, which will be awesome.
> 
> hooray for days off. It's been a long week.


As far as turkey goes, I feed necks and wings, but drumsticks are too dense. Two of mine broke teeth on them a couple of years ago. So no more. They are also bad about splitting into shards. 

And as far as pork after Turkey goes, I have always gone with it next after turkey and been just fine.


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## OldGnarlHead

Okay good to know. I was also going to feed ribs.


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## OtherGuy

Did you check the sodium levels of the turkey? 

Unfortunately most turkey sold in this country is "enhanced" (in other words injected with salt water). Levels over 75mg are problematic.


----------



## OldGnarlHead

Yeah I made sure to check. I always check.. We were super excited when we found this one. Yay for Fresh Thyme. They had duck too, but that was enhanced, sadly..

im so bummed about the kitty.. man its making me really upset..


----------



## naturalfeddogs

OldGnarlHead said:


> Yeah I made sure to check. I always check.. We were super excited when we found this one. Yay for Fresh Thyme. They had duck too, but that was enhanced, sadly..
> 
> im so bummed about the kitty.. man its making me really upset..


Why can't moth stay? I read that in one of your other posts, I just forgot to ask.


----------



## OtherGuy

OldGnarlHead said:


> Yeah I made sure to check. I always check.. We were super excited when we found this one. Yay for Fresh Thyme. They had duck too, but that was enhanced, sadly..
> 
> im so bummed about the kitty.. man its making me really upset..


Excellent. Hate to mention it, but "enhanced" turkey often takes people unwares. Congratulations on finding some clean turkey!


----------



## OldGnarlHead

We let Cricket and Moth meet and Cricket tried to attack Moth and was screaming and barking and we're thoroughly convinced that if Cricket ever got to Moth that she'd kill her. We're not sure if she'd mean to or not but she definitely would. Moth has been hiding all day too and it makes me feel pretty awful..

And yeah, buying the whole thing is a lot more cost effective than buying just the thighs. I hate throwing out the frame though. The wing bones still seem super big and I'm kind of afraid to feed them. 

Meat day was a day today. Still have to clean up. Kinda procrastinating on that front. Have three weeks of food lined up with pork being added next week in small amounts, slowly increasing. I should post the super cool spreadsheet Arne made in Excel, all he has to do is type in a cut of meat and a weight in ounces and it tells us everything we need. It's pretty great. Seems I cant upload Excel documents though. I'll post a picture/video eventually.


----------



## magicre

if you're afraid to feed wings, use them for bone broth.

i'm sorry to hear about moth and cricket.....one is a cat. one is a dog?

and your dog can eat the frame


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## OldGnarlHead

I feel like I kinda have to feed the wings cause how am I ever going to feel confident feeding something like pork ribs/feet if I don't? I dunno. The bones just seem so big... I figured the frame would be waaay too much bone, too, wouldn't it?

Cricket has lived with cats before and has been fine so I dont know.. im actually getting pretty depressed about the whole thing but im trying to keep it together about moth... she's just such a sweet cat..


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## magicre

only time i ever fed chicken wings was to a puppy who was being transitioned...and it was the tip.......little soft teeth and all....and the pup had not been weaned to raw.

i don't feed wings, though sometimes i'll feed duck wings, which are larger...

but they are pretty bony, so i think, for the most part, they are better for bone broth . 

if you leave meat on the frame, no. if you stuff the frame with tripe, no......we feed duck frames...chicken frames.......

before i got a giant breed, i'd cut the frame down the middle sometimes...

sometimes, i just fed it and then made the next meal boneless, but that's when i was feeding twice a day. i don't do that anymore, with the exception of my ten pound, 7 month old pup.

maybe time for the two to adapt to each other? maybe they are feeling your stress?


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## OldGnarlHead

What we saw when they met was not "we're going to be okay" behavior. Moth was pretty traumatized the whole day after, too.. Arne and I agree there's no way the two can live together comfortably. 

Also, I know I've probably read this somewhere, but is it okay to feed heart as the main muscle meat? Beef heart is so much less expensive than other beef. Pork heart (which for right now I can only find on Hare Today) is about the same. It'll probably be the only way she'll ever get like, bison or something like that.


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## naturalfeddogs

When I had access to beef heart I fed a lot of it. Now since my supplier shut down, I have to feed chicken hearts until I find another beef heart source. You can feed it as a staple boneless beef, just remember its really rich and start small.


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## OtherGuy

Beef heart is an excellent and nutritious source of red meat. And usually economical.

The one downside is beef heart sourced in supermarkets is that is typically trimmed to be completely lean. This can work to your advantage in the transition, but—as your dog gets conditioned to fat burning—the leanness of trimmed beef heart "alone" requires that it be complimented with quality fat. 

A piece of lean beef heart served with a piece of fatty pork butt (for example) works synergistically. You might see if a butcher has beef fat you could purchase as trim.

Whole beef heart (if you can get it) does have a nice fat cap. But trimmed beef heart is too lean to be a major portion of the diet without complementing the meals with fat from another source. But that's easily done.


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## magicre

i don't know where you live.....
reelraw.com
hare-today.com
rawfeedingmiami.com
mypetcarnivore.com

you're not there yet, but yes....you can feed heart as a main source of red meat.

having said that, frankenprey or prey model raw usually includes as many parts of an animal in order to make the whole.

whilst that is usually not possible, unless you can throw a goat into the yard.......we try to get as many muscle proteins as we can from a variety of animals.........other than weight bearing from ungulates.....which, generally, are too dense ---- although know thy dog. i had a collie who could power through any bone, so we didn't feed him bone that could break teeth.....and i have a pug, whose level of expertise is chicken and duck bone.......so i could give him a knuckle bone from a cow and he'd be safe.

since most people cannot source a variety of animals.......we do the best we can.....if you can get heart from a variety of animals, do so......but we all have to sleep at night and buy according to what our wallets allow.

during this time of year, my dogs tend to dry out a bit. rather than give them extraneous oils, i increase their fat by a smidge....pork belly generally serves that purpose.......


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## OtherGuy

I'd make the case that trimmed beef heart is better choice as a "next protein" in a progression (to add to chicken) than pork is precisely due to the leanness (and high nutritional value) vs fattier pork. Over years of conversing with raw feeders I run into relatively few whose dogs have had issues with beef, and a great many who abandoned pork do to issues when it was fed early.

I'd start slowly and add increasing amounts to meals that include bone-in chicken pieces.

Personally, I think the advice offered in some Quick Start Guides has it backwards in the case of beef and pork. I'd advise pushing pork back to a late stage protein.


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## xellil

OldGnarlHead said:


> What we saw when they met was not "we're going to be okay" behavior. Moth was pretty traumatized the whole day after, too.. Arne and I agree there's no way the two can live together comfortably.
> 
> Also, I know I've probably read this somewhere, but is it okay to feed heart as the main muscle meat? Beef heart is so much less expensive than other beef. Pork heart (which for right now I can only find on Hare Today) is about the same. It'll probably be the only way she'll ever get like, bison or something like that.


My dogs get very little beef besides beef heart. It's cheap and nutritious. I've never gotten a beef heart that had the fat trimmed. Right now I buy them in bulk from a local butcher but we used to have a grocery store that sold them. In fact, I wish they didn't have so much fat on them. 

I also feed chicken hearts every day. I buy it in bulk, too. And then as finances allow or I get free stuff I add venison, goat or lamb etc. but the bulk of their boneless meat is beef hearts, and to a lesser extent chicken heart. Beef heart is cheaper than poor quality ground beef, much less the better cuts.


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## OtherGuy

I remember when beef cheek meat used to be inexpensive. But here in Los Angeles anyway it was discovered by human foodies and that drove the price up.

Can't blame foodies, cheek meat is delicious. If it is cheap where you live, split it with the dog.


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## OtherGuy

Xellil, will your slaughterhouse sell you unprocessed tripe?


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## OldGnarlHead

I dont know what the butcher block sells, I doubt it would be super trimmed, if at all. I want to see if they can get me more stuff, since they sell goat and lamb. Hare today is a decent enough price if you keep an eye on your price per pound. Good to know about the heart though.


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## OtherGuy

OldGnarlHead said:


> I dont know what the butcher block sells, I doubt it would be super trimmed, if at all. I want to see if they can get me more stuff, since they sell goat and lamb. Hare today is a decent enough price if you keep an eye on your price per pound. Good to know about the heart though.


If you get a whole heart it will probabally have a really nice fat cap on it. You can't miss it.

We have a supplier that sells it that way. But in the supermarkers around here beef heat is always sold trimmed of all fat.


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## xellil

OldGnarlHead said:


> I dont know what the butcher block sells, I doubt it would be super trimmed, if at all. I want to see if they can get me more stuff, since they sell goat and lamb. Hare today is a decent enough price if you keep an eye on your price per pound. Good to know about the heart though.


Hare Today has great stuff, and they ship for free, but their prices are really high. I think we already talked about this though, and there was a reason you buy from them? Maybe because they had the combined packages or grinds you like?

I buy a lot now from Raw Feeding Miami because I can get turkey hearts and pay shipping and it's still less than Hare Today, plus they bag them in 2.5 pound bags rather than the Hare Today 30 pound bulk box I have to thaw for three days and re-package myself. 

My very favorite dog food supplier is My Pet Carnivore but they just kill me on shipping down here in Texas so I only order organs, and rarely. I pay more in shipping than I pay for the meat.


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## naturalfeddogs

I have been looking into just about all of the raw food suppliers, and when I am ready, and do place my first online order it will be with Raw Feeding Miami. Prices are reasonable, and I like the cuts they offer.


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## OldGnarlHead

I like how Hare Today treats their animals and such. Havent really looked anywhere else, really. MPC always seems to only have grinds whenever I look at them. Ill definitely look at Raw Feeding Miami. 

Arne and I are looking at new apartments.. One we're seriously considering has TWO dog runs AND an agility course! Were thinking of getting a new dog in the summer, too..

Also, how do you all go about Craigslist? posting, picking up, etc... wasn't there a craigslist thread at some point?


----------



## InkedMarie

xellil said:


> Hare Today has great stuff, and they ship for free, but their prices are really high. I think we already talked about this though, and there was a reason you buy from them? Maybe because they had the combined packages or grinds you like?
> 
> I buy a lot now from Raw Feeding Miami because I can get turkey hearts and pay shipping and it's still less than Hare Today, plus they bag them in 2.5 pound bags rather than the Hare Today 30 pound bulk box I have to thaw for three days and re-package myself.
> 
> My very favorite dog food supplier is My Pet Carnivore but they just kill me on shipping down here in Texas so I only order organs, and rarely. I pay more in shipping than I pay for the meat.


Harecharges shipping but Reel Raw does not (provided you live in certain states & buy the correct amount of food)


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## naturalfeddogs

I never had much luck with CL, but we have a local little classified paper here to place free classifides. It only covers a few counties but I had GREAT luck with it. I brought home several hauls with a couple hundred pounds at a time. Also, let friends and family know what you are looking for as well. I had a co worker give me a cooler full of deer a couple of years ago as well.

If you go the public ad route, just explain you feed dogs raw and what you are looking for.


----------



## xellil

InkedMarie said:


> Harecharges shipping but Reel Raw does not (provided you live in certain states & buy the correct amount of food)


Oh, thank you for that. It's been awhile so I forgot. It's Reel Raw I ordered from. I ordered from Hare Today once but I couldn't order much because of the shipping. I think I got four stuffed quail but they were very good. 

If you live in the delivery area of My Pet Carnivore or close to it, take another look at them. They have a lot of stuff besides grinds. When we lived in Indiana, 10 minutes from their freezer, I fed almost exclusively from them and I didn't feed grinds at the time. We just went shopping in their freezer every Friday. It was wonderful. 

Raw Feeding Miami also has dehydrated meat I use for treats. Industrious people dehydrate their own meat, but I am too lazy.


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## OldGnarlHead

Im in West Lafayette and they ship here. I wish I fed raw when we first got Cricket cause they were SO close. I saw their delivery trucks all the time! I really love the variety that Raw Feeding Miami has, I just dont like that some/most of their meat isn't pasture raised, I guess. It makes me wonder how it is raised.


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## naturalfeddogs

Might be why Hare Today is more expensive. Grass fed meats usually are.


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## InkedMarie

xellil said:


> Oh, thank you for that. It's been awhile so I forgot. It's Reel Raw I ordered from. I ordered from Hare Today once but I couldn't order much because of the shipping. I think I got four stuffed quail but they were very good.
> 
> If you live in the delivery area of My Pet Carnivore or close to it, take another look at them. They have a lot of stuff besides grinds. When we lived in Indiana, 10 minutes from their freezer, I fed almost exclusively from them and I didn't feed grinds at the time. We just went shopping in their freezer every Friday. It was wonderful. K
> 
> Raw Feeding Miami also has dehydrated meat I use for treats. Industrious people dehydrate their own meat, but I am too lazy.


I only use grinds so I once did a mock order (put it together online but didnt order) of the same grinds from both RR and Hare. With RR's free shipping, Hare was only $10 more. Hare wins for me: love their products, customer service, rewards program and I know when I place the order when it will arrive at my house. With RR, it could be two days or three weeks.


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## InkedMarie

naturalfeddogs said:


> Might be why Hare Today is more expensive. Grass fed meats usually are.


Good point!


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## OldGnarlHead

AAAAHHHH MPC HAS AMAZING BULK PRICES

They have a 30lb box of lamb hearts for $88 which is 2.95/lb for laaaammmbbb aaaahhhhhhhhhh we're going to be in town next weeek and im probablygoing to buy it.. :dying:


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## naturalfeddogs

Awesome for you!!!


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## OldGnarlHead

Sorry, deals make me go gaga, lol.. Im a pretty crazy person lol so when i saw the deal i started yelling at my boyfriend who also started yelling then and then cricket decided to join in XD all excited for deals lol


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## xellil

OldGnarlHead said:


> AAAAHHHH MPC HAS AMAZING BULK PRICES
> 
> They have a 30lb box of lamb hearts for $88 which is 2.95/lb for laaaammmbbb aaaahhhhhhhhhh we're going to be in town next weeek and im probablygoing to buy it.. :dying:


Ask them where they get their meat. I think a lot of it comes from farms in Michigan.


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## OldGnarlHead

They say their processed in Michigan, and say the animals are raised by midwestern farmers so its relatively local.

They have bulk lamb for 2.50/lb, so is it better to buy the lamb trim or the lamb heart? They also have bulk lung (with trachea attached) for 1.25 a pound so I'm debating which I should buy... Im buying two 30lb boxes, I just dont know which ones..


----------



## OtherGuy

OldGnarlHead said:


> They say their processed in Michigan, and say the animals are raised by midwestern farmers so its relatively local.
> 
> They have bulk lamb for 2.50/lb, so is it better to buy the lamb trim or the lamb heart? They also have bulk lung (with trachea attached) for 1.25 a pound so I'm debating which I should buy... Im buying two 30lb boxes, I just dont know which ones..


Can you get a sample of lung/trachea to try? Lung has a weird texture that some dogs refuse to eat. All these are otherwise good items. A luxury of riches.


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## xellil

OldGnarlHead said:


> They say their processed in Michigan, and say the animals are raised by midwestern farmers so its relatively local.
> 
> They have bulk lamb for 2.50/lb, so is it better to buy the lamb trim or the lamb heart? They also have bulk lung (with trachea attached) for 1.25 a pound so I'm debating which I should buy... Im buying two 30lb boxes, I just dont know which ones..


I'd get the heart; it should have fat on it and is more nutritious than trim. Personally, I'd bypass 30 pounds of lung. It's an organ and it will take you forever to feed that much. They have beef trachea that's pretty cheap for the trachea.


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## naturalfeddogs

I personally would go with the heart. Are you buying two boxes of the same thing? If not, I would get both the heart and the trim.


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## xellil

Well, if you have space in your new freezer I'd get the lung at $1.25 a pound. That's cheap. But don't feed it as meat, feed it as organ.

I used to live in Lafayette and then Mulberry. You should give D&R Market a call. They might be able to get you beef heart, chicken heart, turkey neck etc. in bulk.


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## OldGnarlHead

Im getting two boxes, not the same.. I was thinking the goat trim and the lamb heart? Cricket LOVES trachea chews and lung treats though. I could always dehydrate them.. I definitely dont have enough room for three boxes right now which is unfortunate.

I thought lung got fed at meat though?

D&R Market, will definitely look into them!


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## xellil

When you consider that boneless meat is muscle meat, lung is not muscle meat even though it has a little muscle in it. When you get some, you will see what I mean. 

Mostly you can consider something organ if it secretes. People say lung does not secrete. It DOES secrete, only not in the way most organs do.

Heart, on the other hand, even though considered an organ, is mostly definitely a muscle.


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## xellil

When you buy spleen, try to buy it ground up. MPC sells it ground up. Trust me on this one. It's the one piece of the animal that still makes me gag when I handle a whole piece. If I can spoon it out, I'm OK. Same with pancreas. It leaves behind something like snail goo that won't come off your hands. It receives the gold medal of secretion.


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## OtherGuy

Lung is generally considered as meat in PRM ratios, not organ. It is an oddball item. Lung is sort of puffy. Like a meat marshmallow.


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## xellil

Here's a decent explanation of lung. You would not want to feed it as muscle meat. At least, I wouldn't. I feed it as organ. OFFAL OR ORGAN - The Dog's Dinner - by Ann Ridyard


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## OldGnarlHead

Okay, lol, good to know about the spleen and pancreas XD we're probably going to buy the lamb heart and the trim, and maybe buy the lung later... She loved dehydrated trachea, beef and lamb, so i might just buy some of that later. She LOOOVES dehydrated lung treats, both lamb and beef.. 

Lol Cricket got to get outside with her best dog friend and run around and be crazy, she hasn't been this tired in forever XD hooray for tired dogs!

AAAH lots of things just happened and I might be getting a really high paying job working with FIIISHHH (aquarium fish, my love) and at the house we used to live in with a super nice yard in a great place in Indy and I really hope it all works out cause it would be a great place to get another dog and a great place to live and... hopeful. The hardest part to get over is that the person we'd be living with is a hardcore vegan and might not appreciate it, but he is also a very logical person so who knows how that would go.

Also, I got a tip from a hunter friend that I could try and talk to the local deer processing place to see if they'll give me deer goodies. How should I approach them?


----------



## OldGnarlHead

Struck out with the deer processing place. Kitty goes back today. Cricket has been an asshole today so. yay.


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## naturalfeddogs

What happened with the processor?


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## OldGnarlHead

They said that they don't even see any organs cause the people field process their animals and that their policy is that if any customer can get over two pounds of meat off the bones they'll give them the deer for free, so no trim. They said they'll give us the bones, which I said I'd take, just to make bone broth out of or something.

So Cricket started having diarrhea last night and usually her diarrhea doesn't last more than a day but she apparently had some on the floor while we were at work today. Arne said yesterday it was normal poop color but with a little green and today he said that the one on the floor looked like it might have had some blood in it? He said it it had some dark red in it at then and and that there may have been a little bone chip in it. She has been getting those turkey necks that are kinda high in sodium lately (not enhanced though, as far as the packaging says) and she got some coconut oil as a treat yesterday, I may have given her a little too much turkey heart, and she drank from a puddle in the dog run. That's the only things I can think that would cause her to have diarrhea as far as I know. Her energy levels have been completely normal but our policy is that three days of diarrhea is a vet visit. The vet down the street told our friend about raw feeding so we're hoping that if we go they wont blame everything on the raw feeding..
I think we're going to switch out the turkey neck for a chicken back and decrease her meals to see if that will help tomorrow


----------



## magicre

stop the coconut oil.
don't worry about the bone chip. if there is a slight amount of blood in stool, usually that means the intestinal wall was irritated, possibly scraped. no big deal....unless it increases in volume.....and continues....

dogs get diarrhea....and turkey necks with higher than necessary sodium counts as enhanced.....so i'd be stopping them. 

as long as her energy levels are as they should be, consider changing your policy.....vet is only going to mess up the gut with antibiotics and whatever other idiotic meds prescribed.

too much heart, high sodium turkey necks.......keep an eye on the stool ......green or yellow in the stool can be bile or grass......

lung is considered a muscle meat, not an organ. so don't feed lung as an organ. having said that, none of my dogs will eat it, whilst my friend's dog loves lung.....it's rich, so it needs to be fed in
smaller amounts than most.....

i don't know how many meals you're feeding, but after fourteen weeks, a pup can go to two meals a day.


----------



## naturalfeddogs

Depending on the processor, some actually leave a lot of meat on the bones, and chunk some scrap meat along with them. They are bad about jipping customers, but that's good for us raw feeders.

Still being pretty new to raw feeding, the little undigested bone pieces may have aggravated the intestinal tract a little while passing. Probably nothing to worry about. 

As far as the runny poops go, if there was sodium listed on the pack, that is enhancement and may have been the cause. How is the activity level? Overall appetite ok?


----------



## OldGnarlHead

I don't really give her that much coconut oil. She loves it and knows what the jar looks like so sometimes she gets some as a tiny treat, but it does make her stools loose. As does peanut butter. Yeah, the sodium on those was 105mg, but all it says on the back was turkey necks. The only thing that makes me a little uncomfortable is that her gums have been a little pale. Her capillary refill time is normal but they are not as pink as usual, but she does get cold really easily? Her energy is fine, she's been sleeping a bit more than usual but she hasn't been sleeping very well at night because of kitty so I'm not too worried about that, especially since kitty is gone now. Appetite is still ravenous, she'll always ask for food about an hour before dinner and cry until she gets it lol. She gets two meals a day as of right now. I really want this to clear up since she's supposed to start pork in like two days! Thanks guys, I will keep an eye on it, you all are really good at assuaging the fears. I gave Cricket a chicken foot for a little extra bone and she'll get a little less meat for dinner.


----------



## OtherGuy

OldGnarlHead said:


> They said that they don't even see any organs cause the people field process their animals and that their policy is that if any customer can get over two pounds of meat off the bones they'll give them the deer for free, so no trim. They said they'll give us the bones, which I said I'd take, just to make bone broth out of or something.
> 
> So Cricket started having diarrhea last night and usually her diarrhea doesn't last more than a day but she apparently had some on the floor while we were at work today. Arne said yesterday it was normal poop color but with a little green and today he said that the one on the floor looked like it might have had some blood in it? He said it it had some dark red in it at then and and that there may have been a little bone chip in it. She has been getting those turkey necks that are kinda high in sodium lately (not enhanced though, as far as the packaging says) and she got some coconut oil as a treat yesterday, I may have given her a little too much turkey heart, and she drank from a puddle in the dog run. That's the only things I can think that would cause her to have diarrhea as far as I know. Her energy levels have been completely normal but our policy is that three days of diarrhea is a vet visit. The vet down the street told our friend about raw feeding so we're hoping that if we go they wont blame everything on the raw feeding..
> I think we're going to switch out the turkey neck for a chicken back and decrease her meals to see if that will help tomorrow


It still sounds to me like too much bone. Feeling too much bone will irritate the bowels, cause bleeding, and exacerbate the swings between diarrhea and constipation. Feeding backs and necks will make it worse IMO.

Aim for about 15% bone until the system settles, then go to 10%. Don't do 40+% bone meals or your dog will struggle.

Wait until the dog is stable and your sure is "fat conditioned" before feeding coconut oil.


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## magicre

good reason to stop coconut oil.........and you may well be feeding too much bone in one sitting.........
and peanut butter is a never never never no no......for raw fed dogs.......

you can also cleaver the turkey neck in half, but watch for sodium levels....they too can cause diarrhea

this is a marathon, not a sprint. don't worry if pork or beef is delayed. get the dog stable.

as to the gums, if there is cap refill, the dog is fine. 

if you're worried about volume, add some of the red juice to her meal. or even broth or water.


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## OldGnarlHead

We always give her the juices, she loves them. She doesn't touch her water bowl anymore (still pees normally) but we give her a little water in her food bowl with her meals just to make sure she's getting enough. I plan on making bone broth as soon as we're doing our next meat day/when we get those deer bones. 

She's getting 10% bone right now, some days are more bone heavy and some days are boneless but they all average out to 10%. It could be too much bone in one sitting, but she had a small, formed, slightly mucousy poop today, so no diarrhea! And I know red meat can wait a bit but both Arne and I are starting to get a little more uncomfortable with the weight she's losing. I know she'll put it right back on but yanno. We worry about our dogs. 

Our friends just got another husky and it's been snowing like crazy, and they all got to play together in the snow! It was so much fun, and it was so fun watching them all work out their pecking order. I love dogs :3 I cant wait until we get another one


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## OtherGuy

Personally, I'd start red meat now. I think it will make it much easier for you to feed less boney meals by being able to serve mixed meals with meat and bone in chicken.


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## OldGnarlHead

Out of curiosity, why is peanut butter such a big no?

And I think she starts getting pork tomorrow or the day after depending on how her poop looks. Also, since we started on PMR she's been getting a fair amount of eye goop, but I think that is finally starting to go down!

Also, apparently she starts pork today, but I don't see any pork in her meal bag for today lol. So we'll see how it goes, if the diarrhea starts up again, we'll back off.


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## naturalfeddogs

Peanut butter contains xylitol, which is quite toxic. It also has sugar and salt. Nothing about peanut butter is good for dogs.


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## OtherGuy

OldGnarlHead said:


> Out of curiosity, why is peanut butter such a big no?
> 
> And I think she starts getting pork tomorrow or the day after depending on how her poop looks. Also, since we started on PMR she's been getting a fair amount of eye goop, but I think that is finally starting to go down!
> 
> Also, apparently she starts pork today, but I don't see any pork in her meal bag for today lol. So we'll see how it goes, if the diarrhea starts up again, we'll back off.


Do trim the pork of most of the fat at first. Save it in the freezer. Fat is your dog's friend in the medium term, but it sounds like there is still an adjustment to fat burning taking place. So keep meals on the lean side and work up.


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## magicre

do you have a top and side pic of your dog you can post?


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## OldGnarlHead

We get the 'all-natural-only-peanuts-ground-at-the-store' one for cricket. 

I dont have one of those buuuut I can get pictures of her. I know she looks fine but to us she just looks so much smaller than she used to!

Also WE SCORED A DEER! Not a whole one but the head down to the hips and the legs and organs! (so pretty much the whole deer but the good really meaty bits) IM SO EXCITED! My boss shot it yesterday and he brought the scraps to work with him! SO I was wondering what parts of it she can eat? Like can she eat the spine? Or should I just let her get all the meat off it she can and then use the bones for broth? And the hooves?


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## magicre

let the peanuts go. they are neither good for man nor beast. natural or not.

it's an amazing change for dogs ....even more so for their humans....

yes, you can feed the spine. if she is a power eater, she'll eat the bone......if not, she'll work her teeth and jaw to get the meat off and then you can make broth out of it

she can have the hooves too....great chew, especially when fresh.....

take it all. what she cannot eat now, she'll be eating later......

wild venison has a different nutrient profile than farmed deer........so, if you want to start your girl on this venison and you got muscle meat......you can start with a teeny amount....no more than an ounce to start......


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## naturalfeddogs

OldGnarlHead said:


> We get the 'all-natural-only-peanuts-ground-at-the-store' one for cricket.
> 
> I dont have one of those buuuut I can get pictures of her. I know she looks fine but to us she just looks so much smaller than she used to!
> 
> Also WE SCORED A DEER! Not a whole one but the head down to the hips and the legs and organs! (so pretty much the whole deer but the good really meaty bits) IM SO EXCITED! My boss shot it yesterday and he brought the scraps to work with him! SO I was wondering what parts of it she can eat? Like can she eat the spine? Or should I just let her get all the meat off it she can and then use the bones for broth? And the hooves?


"Natural" or not, peanut butter and peanut products aren't a good thing for dogs. They will contribute nothing to the diet, either. 

Congrats on the deer! Its rich, so go slow. My dogs can get through all deer bones with the exception of the lower legs. They have even gotten all the way through a whole skull.


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## OldGnarlHead

I'm stoked cause my boss said he'll give me anything he doesn't use, deer, rabbit, duck, and goose!! I'm planning on freezing it for a month just to be safe, and cause I'm planning on getting her on beef first before we give her any. For some reason I'm worried about the bigger bones like pork ribs and stuff, iunno. I know its fine but i worry


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## naturalfeddogs

It sounds like you have the hook up! Good for you! Pork rib bones are fine, deer ones are also. Once you see how well they are handled, you will feel much better about it.


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## OldGnarlHead

I know, it's just kinda scary. We have another friend who is going to give us all of the goodies from her deer! She's actually going to help me with the deer I just got, too. Im pretty happy right now. I'm going meat shopping tomorrow too. I think we're going to wait on the lamb heart from My Pet Carnivore since we're going to be getting so much from our friends.. 

She brought up that I should be careful feeding the head because of Chronic Wasting Disease. Im going to look into it, but do you all know anything about it? I know there have been a few cases in Michigan and Ohio, but Im not sure about around here. Should I just not feed the head just to play it safe?

Also



she actually really looks really good in these pictures..


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## naturalfeddogs

You can ask your dept. of agriculture on the CWD, and see how big of a problem it is there. Here in Alabama, there haven't been any cases reported in years, so the heads I got I fed and was fine. The ag. Dept may put you in touch with the state vet (that's who I ended up talking to),and they will let you know if its a risk or not.


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## OldGnarlHead

Okay! Is that by county or state, do you know? I googled and it seems we have a department building nearby but I'm not sure. I dont want to miss out on that head but I'd rather be safe than sorry. There have been no cases of CWD in Indiana as far as I can tell, but ill have Arne definitely call tomorrow.


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## naturalfeddogs

Its state wide, I believe. If any county has had any reports, they will know. Here at least, the state reports any findings to the state vet. That's who you will probably want to talk to.


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## OldGnarlHead

Okay  thanks a bunch. Tomorrow is the day we take the deer all apart. Im kinda weirding out about slicing up the heart. Dunno why. I never weird out about meat but i think the heart now has a bunch of blood in it and I don't know. Taking the deer apart is fine but not the heart? Its weird.


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## naturalfeddogs

Yep, full of bloody goodness! Be ready to do some wiping down if you are cutting it inside on a counter top.....


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## OldGnarlHead

Oh, we're doing it all on the porch! We're preparing for the weird looks and possible police calls XD We also got some deer bones from the processor that we're planning on making into broth straight away. Cooking the stuff denatures the prions that cause CWD.. Im not really worried about the deer I have now but anxiety is a bitch sometimes.


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## OtherGuy

Not to spread anxiety, but every source I've checked says cooking does not destroy CWD causing prions.


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## magicre

OtherGuy said:


> Not to spread anxiety, but every source I've checked says cooking does not destroy CWD causing prions.


fortunately or unfortunately, it is truth with which you speak.
and it's true that freezing doesn't kill the parasites in salmon

plus, there are zillions of germs which can 'take our dogs to hell'......

we take our lives in our hands every time we handle food, feed food, buy food.....eat food. 

what we count on is our immune system........keep that healthy and we improve the odds.


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## OldGnarlHead

Crap, oh well. Arne made a pretty decent bone score from the processor. He got a nice trachea so that's good! And yeah, the thing about the prions is that the immune system doesn't really take care of them cause they are just messed up proteins that end up building up in the system. But, we will call the department of ag/state vet and see cause apparently if the deer has CWD, every part of it is contagious, at least to dogs, not just the hide and CNS.. BUuuuuuut, looking further into it, a lot of places say that there is no threat to other domestic animals including livestock, dogs, and cats... 

There is no indication to date that CWD is a threat to domestic animals or livestock other than deer or elk, and there have been no reports of CWD in dogs or cats.
(https://www.health.ny.gov/diseases/communicable/zoonoses/cwd.htm)

Is CWD dangerous to humans?
Researchers with the Federal Center for Disease Control and prevention (CDC) in Atlanta, Georgia, and along with the Colorado Department of Public Health and Environment, have studied CWD and have found no evidence that CWD poses a serious risk to humans or domestic animals. Years of monitoring in the affected area in Colorado has found nosimilar disease in people or cattle living there.
(http://tpwd.texas.gov/publications/pwdpubs/media/pwd_lf_w7000_0859b.pdf)

Those are just two of the ones I've found so Ill probably call but not worry about it too much?


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## OtherGuy

OldGnarlHead said:


> Crap, oh well. Arne made a pretty decent bone score from the processor. He got a nice trachea so that's good! And yeah, the thing about the prions is that the immune system doesn't really take care of them cause they are just messed up proteins that end up building up in the system. But, we will call the department of ag/state vet and see cause apparently if the deer has CWD, every part of it is contagious, at least to dogs, not just the hide and CNS.. BUuuuuuut, looking further into it, a lot of places say that there is no threat to other domestic animals including livestock, dogs, and cats...
> 
> There is no indication to date that CWD is a threat to domestic animals or livestock other than deer or elk, and there have been no reports of CWD in dogs or cats.
> (https://www.health.ny.gov/diseases/communicable/zoonoses/cwd.htm)
> 
> Is CWD dangerous to humans?
> Researchers with the Federal Center for Disease Control and prevention (CDC) in Atlanta, Georgia, and along with the Colorado Department of Public Health and Environment, have studied CWD and have found no evidence that CWD poses a serious risk to humans or domestic animals. Years of monitoring in the affected area in Colorado has found nosimilar disease in people or cattle living there.
> (http://tpwd.texas.gov/publications/pwdpubs/media/pwd_lf_w7000_0859b.pdf)
> 
> Those are just two of the ones I've found so Ill probably call but not worry about it too much?


I've seen the very mixed news you have seen. High caution urged for anyone handling possible CWD parts, but no identified human disease thus far. I do believe that with "mad cow" (another prion disease) it could take 10 years in humans between contagion and symptoms. So I dunno.

It also seems like the parts we'd get, carcass, connective tissues, spinal cord, brain, etc, are the most dangerous portions if there are prions present.


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## OldGnarlHead

Yeah, and CWD takes such a long time to become present its self in cervids, too... From all I've seen, it does not effect non-cervid animals, but to be cautious just in case it might. The bits that we had (from my boss at least) had no lesions on them and looked very nice. It was also a young buck so the likelihood of it being affected is very slim, but we don't know about the deer bones/bits from the processor that we got.

MAN is our little freezer full! I thought I'd never see it this full! Jeezums.. We cut apart the deer tonight. It was pretty easy, I probably could have done it pretty okay by myself but I'm glad I had someone who knew what they were doing to supervise me. Arne bought me a knife set and a hack saw for my early Christmas presents and they were so nice! So now we have a bag of bones to make into broth that is hanging out there and the deer parts (that haven't been bagged up nicely yet, they're still in a big ol' trash bag..) and I can barely close the lid! We're probably not going to keep the head.. its just taking up too much room and I want to play it at least a little safe with the whole CWD thing. SO MUCH DEER MEAT. We're going to have deer for ages! I was going to take a picture but it was well below freezing and we were trying to be fast!


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## naturalfeddogs

A knife set and a hacksaw for Christmas....I crown you a full fledge raw feeder! That's awesome! So glad you have so much meat!


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## OldGnarlHead

DD yay! I'll consider myself fully fledged when I actually know wtf I'm doing XD Probably when I start feeling comfortable answering other people's questions on here!

Our friend really wants to start feeding raw and I offered her the use of my freezer to start off! She really wants to start after she saw how easy it was for Cricket. I'm excited that I can help convince people that it's possible!


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## OldGnarlHead

So I thought I'd let you know what all is in my freezer! I havent done a full inventory so this is just a rough estimate but 



my 7.1 cubic foot freezer stuffed to the brim!

2 pork butts
2 pork loins
1 beef bottom round roast
2 beef steaks (chuckeye and something else)
3 rock hens
3 packs of turkey thighs
2 whole turkeys
3 packs of turkey necks
1 pack chicken feet
2 full gallon bags of chicken backs
4 10lb bags of chicken quarters 
1 full deer carcass including organs (minus head)
2 packs chicken gizzards
2 goat rib things (?)
1 tub of chicken liver
assorted boneless chicken, turkey, and venison! 

Its so crazy that we filled the freezer up this fast! I cant wait until we can start getting more variety!

Im currently trying the crock pot method of making broth just to free up some space! It's all chicken tonight but I think tomorrow will be all turkey, since I'm breaking those turkeys down tomorrow!


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## OldGnarlHead

Did a full freezer inventory! Didn't weigh it all cause we didn't want to take that much time but this is all that's in our freezer at the moment!

One full deer carcass including organs
2 quart bags boneless deer meat
40lbs of chicken quarters
2 gallon bags boneless chicken
1 gallon bag chicken backs
2 quart bags chicken gizzards/hearts
1 quart bag chicken drumsticks
1 bag chicken feet
1.25lbs chicken liver
2 whole turkeys
11 turkey necks
1 gallon bag boneless turkey
5.5lbs turkey thighs
1 snack bag turkey giblets
1 gallon bag bony turkey bits
2 pork scapulas
2 pork butts
2 pork loins
1 steak chuckeye
1 beef roast
4 quart bags beef steak
4lbs lamb ribs


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## magicre

that is one happy freezer

and you are bonafide now!!


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## OldGnarlHead

Also, I sent an email to Hare-Today, Darwin's Pet, My Pet Carnivore, Raw Feeding Miami, and Reel Raw... This is what I sent:

Hello! 
My name is Kells. I am currently a 20-year-old college drop-out trying to figure out what to do with my life. I was a Wildlife major at my college, and I absolutely loved it, but the calculus kept kicking my butt. All I know is that I love all animals, I love my pets, and I absolutely love raw feeding. My partner and I currently have our first dog Cricket, a one-and-a-half-year-old (probable) Beagle Shar-Pei mix. When we adopted her, the shelter had named her 'Patches' because she was picked up off the street with a severe skin infection and she was missing about 60% of her fur. She had a huge (really gross) secondary rash on her legs. She was a mess. From what we can tell, she was someone's pet until she got the infection, and they abandoned her because of it. We immediately put her on Orijen, and her fur started to grow back in, but the infection would still pop up occasionally, leaving her miserably itchy and sore. Sometimes she would even start to lose some fur again. 
Raw feeding and I go way back. I used to dog-sit this Boston Terrier named Piper, and her owners fed her raw. I was kind of perturbed when they asked me to feed her this Tupperware full of chicken thighs and whole sardines, but being a pretty gung-ho child, I didn't really think twice about it. Watching that dog gleefully slurp down those sardines is something I'll never forget. Piper's owners took all my questions about the bones and bacteria in stride and just told me what I now tell people: "It's the most natural for them, the bones aren't dangerous unless they're cooked, their digestive systems are designed to handle the bacteria," and so on. 
Raw feeding just has a way of kinda pinging you in the back of your mind. I knew in my heart raw feeding was the best. Every time I put down a bowl of Orijen for my pup, I felt a little guilty. "I'm feeding her the best kibble around, this is just as good", I'd tell myself. I kept kind of putting it off. "We'll start her once we finish this bag" I said about twice. Then finally it hit me. Putting her bowl of kibble down, it crashed over me "What am I doing?". The next day I went out and bought a bag of chicken quarters and started her off on raw. 
Her skin infection/rash rarely come back now, and when it does, it's mostly just a few spots that she doesn't even pay any mind. We now have a friend that really wants to start feeding her dog raw too (the dog's name is Laynie. She and Cricket are bestest friends). I keep telling Laynie's owner that raw will just sit in the back of her mind until one day it just clicks. 
The reason I'm writing this is because I want to start my own raw feeding company, in one form or another. I go to bed thinking about raw and I wake up thinking about raw. I love it and what it's done for my dog, and I want to help other dog owners have that moment of realization that raw can transform their dog into a sleek, happy, healthy ball of puppy energy, just like ours. I want to be a part of the raw-feeding revolution and help other people make their pets as happy as mine is. I've never felt so passionate about anything in my life before, it's weird. 
So I'm here to ask, how did you start? How did you make it become what it is today? How did you start to source your meats and other products that you sell? How did you figure out the shipping and website aspect? I'd love to hear how you started. This is something I'd love to start doing and any help or advice would be greatly appreciated! 
Thank you so much for your time!
-Kells, Arne, and Cricket

Arne and I are seriously considering it.. Hare Today already responded which was awesome..


----------



## OldGnarlHead

Also, we just bought some pork spare ribs for Cricket! I'm so nervous to feed them to her though..


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## naturalfeddogs

Just watch her, but you will be surprised at well she will handle them.


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## OldGnarlHead

Alright, I have trust and faith in the raw fed dog digestive system...

We had a very successful meat day today! Four weeks of meals all prepped! She has a week before she starts on beef (I found a really lean roast to start her off on) and then two weeks after that she starts on some chicken livers! I made sure to not add very much at all, mayyybe about the size of a quarter, maybe a little more/less sometimes. We have a lot of room (meaning just enough XD ) in the freezer now and I think we're going to make a Hare Today or Raw Feeding Miami purchase soonish to get weird organs and stuff!

We're making turkey broth with the turkey frames so Cricket's best friend Laynie can have some (she has a chicken sensitivity. Her owner wants to start her on raw!). Cricket LOVES the broth I made earlier and its been making her poops much better and more regular. Yay broth!


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## OldGnarlHead

Scored two geese from my boss! I got everything but the breast meat, and he's going out again next week for more! I don't know if we have enough room in our freezer for any more than two, but I'm sure going to try. It'll be a project skinning them but I'm sure Ill get it. Free free-range goose is something I'm not willing to pass up on! I'm thinking of posting the whole endeavor. Should be fun getting to use the full range of knives I got for Christmas!


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## OldGnarlHead

Cricket's about to start beef and we've been seriously considering getting a second dog after dogsitting our friend's dog for over a week. Cricket is just so much happier with another dog around.


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## magicre

will you get a puppy?


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## OldGnarlHead

Definitely not a super young puppy, probably around Cricket's age, like 1-3. But we're not opposed to getting an older dog as long as it tolerates Cricket (she is usually a pretty decently sized asshole lol) and that can play hard with her. We're thinking around her size, too, 40-65 lbs. Laynie is a 65 lbs boxer and she's the biggest we really want to get until we get our own place. Cricket doesnt do well with smaller dogs. She always plays way too rough. Should go without saying but whatever dog we get next will be raw fed  Our only hang up is can we afford to feed two dogs upwards of 3.5 lbs a day and if our future roommate will be okay with another dog. We really want another dog for Cricket though.


----------



## OldGnarlHead

So I dont know how both me and my boyfriend have been getting our math so wrong but we've definitely been underfeeding Cricket. She's been on 16 ounces for a while and we just put her up to 17 cause she was looking so skinny (her last ribs and spine are now super apparent and she's starting to get a pocket in between her shoulder blades). I just re-did my math and at 3% she's supposed to be getting *21* ounces! At 2.5% she's supposed to be getting 17.5 ounces.. I know she'll be fine and it was a mistake but I feel like such a bad pup mom and not trusting my instincts and checking my math sooner...


----------



## OldGnarlHead

Cricket had her first pork rib today! Ate it like a champ, chewed it very nicely. I love watching her eat now! She gets so serious about her food. They had split pigs feet at the store yesterday and I was wondering if they could be fed. They're split down the middle, through all the bones and stuff. I dont know if the bones would be too sharp since they're split


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## naturalfeddogs

Now that you have gotten into red meats, you will start seeing weight gain. And, that's why I haven't ever used math to feed my dogs. Their body body condition tells me how to feed, not numbers. All these "percentages " vary so much from dog to dog due to age, breed and activity level. I let the dogs tell me how much they need. I have fed split pig feet before, and they were ok, but they are still really dense bone. I don't feed them often. Much denser than pork ribs.


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## OldGnarlHead

Hrm okay. Maybe if I get a bigger breed dog. 

Also, how do you all feel about brewers yeast? I was thinking about making her some brewers yeast paste for the summer for insect protection. Also Im seeing a lot of information about raw milk for dogs and I really dont know what to think about dairy for dogs. I know it's not necessary at all but is it beneficial enough to feed occaisonally?


----------



## naturalfeddogs

There's no reason to add milk or brewers yeast. I personally wouldn't use either one. Feeding a raw diet, you will likely see few if any insects. If you do(we see a few fleas in the summer), so I use wondercide spray.

The milk may be beneficial for young orphaned puppies, but that would be maybe the only use. JMO. Someone who knows more about the use of that may chime in. Personally, I see no reason to add it to the regular diet.


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## OldGnarlHead

Also, I bought Cricket some eggs from the store, (egglands best free range organic whatevers) and a lot of places Im seeing say that you MUST grind up the eggshells. Im doubting this is true, but is there any validity to this?


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## naturalfeddogs

They don't digest very well unless ground really fine. They tend to come out the same way they went in. As long as you are feeding bone, there is no reason to give eggshells.


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## OldGnarlHead

Okay! 
So we found an Australian Cattle Dog that we might go look at... Its from the same shelter that we got Cricket from, too.

--

Ah, the cattle dog is gone already. Which is fine  we might not be ready for a dog that intense yet. 

Also, I'm making bumper stickers that say 'Dogs are NOT omnivores!" and "All my dogs are raw fed!"... Its the only thing I feel strongly enough to put on my car lol

--

Just finished breaking down one of the geese my boss gave me... Man do birds have freaking weird anatomy... We also couldn't find a single pellet in the bird. My boss said that he used bigger birdshot than usual but they couldn't _all_ have been through and throughs though...


----------



## OldGnarlHead

Hey, Cricket has been eating frozen poop and frozen dirt a lot lately. I have no idea why and its really frustrating cause I don't want her to get sick from eating poop


----------



## InkedMarie

OldGnarlHead said:


> Hey, Cricket has been eating frozen poop and frozen dirt a lot lately. I have no idea why and its really frustrating cause I don't want her to get sick from eating poop


Pick it up as soon as she goes.


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## naturalfeddogs

OldGnarlHead said:


> Hey, Cricket has been eating frozen poop and frozen dirt a lot lately. I have no idea why and its really frustrating cause I don't want her to get sick from eating poop


What all are you including in her diet at this point?


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## OldGnarlHead

She's on chicken (drumsticks, thighs, feet), turkey (neck, thigh meat, breast, ribs, sometime heart), pork (butt, loin, spare rib), and beef (roast), and various broths. As soon as her diarrhea clears up she starts on organs too. The next meat day we were going to introduce pigs ears, beef heart, more kinds of liver (beef, pork, goose), probably some lamb and maybe beef brisket (the less fatty parts). (our meat days usually prep meals for 3-4 weeks)

She's also getting a vet visit soon. We're making the appointment tomorrow. She's not really acting like normal and we just want to make sure everything is okay with our baby. Not to mention that when she was pooping today (a much better poop, I might add) I saw a red bump coming out of her butt. She also just looks really sad all the time. Which I know seems silly but its true.. We might have to cut the foster short if she keeps acting off...


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## naturalfeddogs

Poop eating can be a habit, but in my experience it's been related to lacking in diet. All the ones I had when I fed kibble all ate poop. When I switched to raw, it all stopped. And none have done it since. I feel like you aren't feeding enough red meats or organs. Beef heart is super nutritious. 

I also believe dirt eating is because of the same. I have heard they "just do it sometimes ", but the earth is naturally full of minerals, so to me it only makes sense.


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## Herzo

All my dogs eat tons of horse poop and now Trixie has started eating dog poop. Eek!! She is my only kibble fed dog. I have never had a poop eater before. But the Turtle will eat dirt sometimes not sure if she's lacking or not.


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## OldGnarlHead

We've been starting to feed her a lot more pork and I hope to up her beef intake soon too. And she gets introduced to organs in a few days so hopefully it'll stop when she's fully switched. I was thinking it was lacking in nutrition too. Im hoping that she'll perk up a bit too once she's fully switched and on a whole lot of red meat


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## OldGnarlHead

Sometimes Cricket worries me when she eats pork ribs. She'll give it like, maybe three good crunches then swallow it. Is that okay?


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## naturalfeddogs

That's normal. Dogs don't chew the way we do. They just chomp chomp and swallow. They just have to chew it enough to get it crunched to fit down.


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## OldGnarlHead

I figured. It's just kinda worrisome when I give her a big rib and its gone in about a minute XD


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