# Indi is home! I'm scared to feed her raw though.



## CavePaws (Jan 25, 2011)

I'm having an internal debate that has to go away really quickly because she has drugs she must take with food. 

She is on Metacam, Tramadol, and Clindamycin. She has to have the metacam and clindamycin tonight only if she eats, which she definitely will because she just ate a little bit of pulled pork. 

Cole is in my ear telling me I'm crazy if I feed her raw food because the incision is in her mouth - of course he is not arguing that her stomach and intestines are meant for raw food. They tried to get me to put her on Hills ID for this, since I feed raw obviously they were concerned. I explained that would seriously mess her up, her diet does not consist of any carbs and I don't want it to - there isn't a need for it. The tech didn't argue with me, so I suggested that maybe I should just cook it like another tech had mentioned I should do. Regardless, they were all super nice to me and Indi. She's super nervous and they were great with her. I do not at all fault them for being scared of her getting an infection, of course that is a worry to people who are unfamiliar with it. Hell, it's a worry for me!

I'm weighing the pros and the cons.

Raw Food Pros:
She has been on it over a year so no digestive upset will result
It provides bio available nutrients
No supplementing needed

Cooked Pros:
Bacteria will be killed


Raw Food Cons:
Loaded with bacteria (especially ground meat)

Cooked Food Cons:
Change of diet
Nutrients destroyed through cooking, must supplement

All of this I can throw in a food processor for her so regardless she will be able to have ground


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## Liz (Sep 27, 2010)

One big thing you are forgetting is her immune system. Stress is a major factor with your or her immune system. Stresses today: strange place, alone for a while, surgery, anesthesia, some pain, your stress which she feels. I would add different food to top that list. Oh, medications are also a huge stress on the immune system. Honestly I would do ground for a couple of days and then soft for a few with some coconut oil after she eats for the anti bacterial and anti fungal qualities followed by a spritz of colloidal silver. Remember you built an incredible immune system on raw, bolstered it all week with colostrum and now can depend on it to help her heal. Be strong and courageous - you can do it!


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## Scarlett_O' (May 19, 2011)

Personally I would feed her raw, then flush her mouth. 


Of course if it is going to make you feel a ton better then you could always cook it for the first couple meals-thus not really needing any supliments-and then got to raw.


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## DaneMama (Jun 27, 2008)

I see ZERO benefit to taking her off of raw while she recovers. If anything you'll do her injustice by changing nutrition on her. 

I'm glad to hear that she's at home and doing well! Keep us posted!


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## Makovach (Jan 24, 2012)

I would think the benefits of being fed raw at this time would out weigh the risk. She has been on it for a year like u said. Its what she is used to. Changing her diet could cause major upset. If you fear the bacteria, you can use the coconut oil as Liz suggested, or even flush her mouth as Abi suggested. I would fear the digestive upset at this point more than bacteria.


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## CavePaws (Jan 25, 2011)

Ok peeps, commensing the grinding process so I can give her some meds to make that mouth feel better!

Raw food grinding that is. ;D


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## CavePaws (Jan 25, 2011)

How much egg shell do i need per lb?

Nvm going to smash up some chicken frames.

And grind the frames of course after.


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## Liz (Sep 27, 2010)

If you are using chicken bone I wouldn't worry about egg shells.


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## malluver1005 (Nov 15, 2009)

When Aspen had his wart removed on is upper gums, I gave him raw. I didn't flush his mouth after. What I didn't do is give him bones. I gave him ground up egg shells for about 5 days.


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## CavePaws (Jan 25, 2011)

Yep! I decided it would just be easier to do some chicken bone.


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## BeagleCountry (Jan 20, 2012)

Misty's surgery, 2 chewing teeth/2 growths removed, was a week ago today. I've been feeding finely chipped meat with ground egg shell. She basically swallowed it. Little to no chewing until given ground venison yesterday and a chicken wing today. There is no indication of infection. The stitches will help keep the incision clean. I'd stay with easy to swallow raw.


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

CavePaws said:


> Yep! I decided it would just be easier to do some chicken bone.


i'm glad you worked through this and came to the conclusion to feed raw.

her immune system as liz stated is in much better shape than dogs not fed raw....and she has the ability to fight off infection.

plus with the antibiotics the vet put her on, well, that's like an M16 going off in her mouth.


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## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

Parker had 20 teeth removed, and then he went back for a second surgery to get the holes where his canines used to be sewn shut.

The only concession i have made to his surgery is that I didn't feed him any ground meat for a few days. I cut up chicken hearts really small for him. 

I'm glad you are going to stick with raw. I think Indi will be just fine.


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## MollyWoppy (Mar 19, 2010)

So glad to hear she's doing fine. Probably as sore as hell, poor pup. Did they mention when you may get the results back?


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## Noodlesmadison (Sep 18, 2011)

I have a smaller dog who has bad teeth and doesn't enjoy chewing bones.
SO I cut up all the bones with a good scissor and the meat in small pieces. Try that! I do it with chicken backs because the bone is so easy to cut and it's softish.


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## CavePaws (Jan 25, 2011)

I tried grinding w/ the food processor, it failed miserably. I tried hammering the chicken bones out, they still seemed too sharp for me to be comfortable giving them to her. She's eating whole chicken hearts though. So, what I did was take the failed chicken heart lumps/slop, got some egg shells that were not dried out, crushed and ground them into as small of pieces as I could, then mixed it all and hand fed her so she didn't have to lap it up. 


So, my question is, how much egg shell does she need and how do i go about grinding it into a powder? I think she will do fine with the chicken hearts, they are small enough to where she just swallows them whole anyway.

edit: I will respond to you all soon!! Pen she is sore as hell. :/ My moms screaming about the bloody mess I made so I'll be back in a bit...


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## CavePaws (Jan 25, 2011)

magicre said:


> i'm glad you worked through this and came to the conclusion to feed raw.
> 
> her immune system as liz stated is in much better shape than dogs not fed raw....and she has the ability to fight off infection.
> 
> plus with the antibiotics the vet put her on, well, that's like an M16 going off in her mouth.


Earlier when I read this I almost spit out my water laughing. 

I'm really happy you guys gave me the pep talk to feed her raw. I needed it to step forward.

I think I'm going to do ground hamburger or turkey meat with the egg shell as her meal in the morning and then chicken hearts, beef kidney, beef liver as her dinner. I'll alternate between the beef liver and the beef kidney. I have pork liver, another protein for variety, but she hates it so I highly doubt I'll be able to get her to eat it.


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## NewYorkDogue (Sep 27, 2011)

CavePaws said:


> So, my question is, how much egg shell does she need and how do i go about grinding it into a powder? I think she will do fine with the chicken hearts, they are small enough to where she just swallows them whole anyway.


The best way to grind egg shells into a fine powder is with a coffee grinder. Do you have access to one? Otherwise, maybe a food processor...?
Or.....maybe put the dried shells into a clean towel and hammer away...:smile:

Glad that she is doing well.


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## BeagleCountry (Jan 20, 2012)

CavePaws said:


> I tried grinding w/ the food processor, it failed miserably. I tried hammering the chicken bones out, they still seemed too sharp for me to be comfortable giving them to her. She's eating whole chicken hearts though. So, what I did was take the failed chicken heart lumps/slop, got some egg shells that were not dried out, crushed and ground them into as small of pieces as I could, then mixed it all and hand fed her so she didn't have to lap it up.
> 
> 
> So, my question is, how much egg shell does she need and how do i go about grinding it into a powder? I think she will do fine with the chicken hearts, they are small enough to where she just swallows them whole anyway.
> ...


How to make eggshells:
Dry on the kitchen counter overnight. Open the membrane that is on one end to release any moisture before drying. Or dry in a 250 degree oven for 30 minutes. Dried shells can be rolled with a drinking glass to make powder. Use a paper plate so the plate can be bent and the powder brushed onto the food or into a container. I use a Krups coffee grinder. The oval shape aids in making a fine powder.

Amount to give:
1/2 teaspoon per pound of food

To soften bones:
Use a crock pot with enough water to cover chicken bones. Cook for 8 hours. The bones will be very soft to mushy. 

Alternate food idea:
The bones are soft and easily swallowed in canned salmon, sardines, and mackerel. Nothing needs to be added.

I hope you and Indi sleep well tonight and Indi is feeling better soon.


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## CavePaws (Jan 25, 2011)

I have a coffee grinder! ( I seriously don't know what the heck I would do without a coffee grinder O_O ) I might try that way if I can't get the powder fine enough by rolling it. 

I also have a crock pot...So the bones will still do their thing clogging her up cooked into a mush? I can also try that and see how it goes! 

I will sleep a lot better tonight than I did last night. I barely got any sleep last night. I think she will sleep just fine, she's already passed out next to me. It's funny she jumps 22"-26" at agility practice but she never fails to make me lift her hind end into the car. Now she's pulling it with the couch. I don't blame her though. I'll lift her pretty little hind end from now on if that's how she'll have it. I'm just so thankful to have her in my life. /endcheesymushyspiel

edit: And Liz she is digging the coconut oil lol! Preston seemed mad he wasn't getting any.


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

CavePaws said:


> I have a coffee grinder! ( I seriously don't know what the heck I would do without a coffee grinder O_O ) I might try that way if I can't get the powder fine enough by rolling it.
> 
> I also have a crock pot...So the bones will still do their thing clogging her up cooked into a mush? I can also try that and see how it goes!
> 
> ...


you won't want to use a grinder that you've used for spices or coffee....

the nice thing about the mouth is the sheer volume of blood vessels.....so healing will be quick....it hurts more for a shorter period of time....


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## NewYorkDogue (Sep 27, 2011)

magicre said:


> you won't want to use a grinder that you've used for spices or coffee....
> 
> the nice thing about the mouth is the sheer volume of blood vessels.....so healing will be quick....it hurts more for a shorter period of time....


True about the coffee grinders--- i actually have two: one for coffee; one for flax seeds, pumpkin seeds, sesame, etc. and egg shells.

Spicy/coffee type residue would not be a good thing for her sensitive mouth right now...


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## CavePaws (Jan 25, 2011)

Good reminder there! I didn't think about that, I'm sure I would've though once I figured out I couldn't completely clean it all out.

I think I can probably find a really cheap grinder to use.

Are crock pot chicken bones just as good? I have a lot of chicken frames defrosted right now!


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

CavePaws said:


> Good reminder there! I didn't think about that, I'm sure I would've though once I figured out I couldn't completely clean it all out.
> 
> I think I can probably find a really cheap grinder to use.
> 
> Are crock pot chicken bones just as good? I have a lot of chicken frames defrosted right now!


wouldn't do you any good if indi got caffeinated LOL...

do crock pot chicken bones melt? i know they do in a pressure cooker and they do if you just cook the crap out of them....don't know whether or not crock pot bones are soft enough to eat....

how's indi doing today?


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## CavePaws (Jan 25, 2011)

Omg it would suck if she were caffeinated. She's already bouncing off the walls with energy. She's totally fine, acting like herself! I'm having to keep the ball away from her because I don't want her carrying it around constantly and hurting her sutures. The first thing she did when she got home was find a ball. Keeping her calm is going to be hell. :| 

I'm cooking crock pot chicken bones as we speak. They've been in for five hours so far and are pretty darn mushy! 3 hours to go  I'm giving her a boneless meal right now so she can have some metacam and antibiotics.


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## mischiefgrrl (Oct 28, 2010)

I'm glad she's back home and on the mend! Tiffa had two baby teeth taken out last year with her spay surgery and I had stocked up on ground meats for her recovery. She wanted absolutely nothing to do with the ground meats. So she got chicken necks, stew meat and eggs.


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## Herzo (Feb 5, 2011)

Glad she's home and doing well. I am going to have to find the thread that tells what happened to her because I missed it.


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

excellent. she'll be right as rain before you know it.


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## CavePaws (Jan 25, 2011)

Ok, so the crock pot chicken bones had mixed results. Some of them were still fairly hard and some were soft enough to crush/mush. I'm wondering if I leave them cooking in there over night if they will just turn into mush. So I'm going to do just that. 

Giving her egg shells right now until I figure out if I can harvest enough soft chicken bone from this batch in the crock pot right now.


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## Scarlett_O' (May 19, 2011)

I can't say that I would be comfortable feeding them unless they were in the crockpot for at least 12 hours, the longer the better, IMO.


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## CavePaws (Jan 25, 2011)

Well, they've been in there for almost 11 hours now and I'm not comfortable feeding them. So I wonder how much longer it would take to turn them into mush? Don't know! However, I won't be finding out because I just found a gigantic presto pressure cooker in our spare bedroom.  I've never used one of these things so I'm currently trying to read up on it before I blow my brains out trying to make Indi bone mush.


edit: I read in a few places you need vinegar for the crock pot bones idea. Makes sense. But I don't want to give her vinegar....


eta: We have a 23 qt pressure canner/cooker, for god only knows what my mother has no clue what to do with it. This thing is scary and ridiculous and I'll let you know how my adventure goes. I feel so unprepared for her meals, sheesh, who knew feeding raw could be this complicated?

Of course, it's not raw when you're cooking it lol. Oh how I wish she could just chew. Poor baby dog probably wishes she could to.



*So here is what is now happening.*

I've made the egg shell powder.

I added three table spoons apple cider vinegar to the chicken bones that have been in the crock pot for 3 hours.

I'm going to figure out if I can use this pressure cooker cause it looks fun.

So once I'm done experimenting, I will know in the future if any of my other dogs need oral surgery I can be prepared with multiple methods of providing bone. -__-


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## Herzo (Feb 5, 2011)

I did the chicken crock pot thing once and I did cook it longer than 12 hours, can't remember how much longer but it did work. A pressure cooker that big would be for canning. If you can meats or beans, corn things like that you have to use a pressure cooker. If I do tomatoes or pickles I just do the boiling water bath. But some people still say you can get botulism and should use it for the tomatoes. I never have and can them every year no problem.

When I first use it I was scared but it worked great. The one I used had the metal thing that bobbles up and down on it. I think that is better than the pressure gauge because you don't have to have it checked to make sure it is working right. 

Good luck.


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## chowder (Sep 7, 2008)

I tried the crock pot method once and the chicken never did get soft enough to feed the bones to Chelsy. Maybe I didn't wait long enough. 

My mom had a pressure cooker when I was a kid that she used all the time. She used to make stew beef or any meat that really needed tenderizing in it. But she always had me scared to death of it by warning us never to go near it or it would explode!! Good luck with it!

Also, if you want to have ground meat and not worry about the bacteria count, could you just buy some chicken quarters or beef roasts and ask your butcher to grind them for you on the spot? I know that some stores will custom cut and grind meat for you while you wait. If it is ground and frozen or used immediately, it shouldn't have any extra high bacteria count.


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