# Show breeders?



## tracydr (Feb 25, 2011)

I'm showing my papillon puppy for the first time this spring, next week and in April. I'm new to the breed and new to raw feeding. I haven't shown a dog with furnishings since my Scottie back in about 1990. Anyway, my puppy could really use more furnishings and fringe. I know this is partly hereditary and partly grooming but I'm wondering if anything I can feed her could help? She's been able to handle anything I give her so far and is on a decent variety. Should I add more eggs? The only thing she isn't fond of is organs, but I found out this week that she likes them seared, so she'll be getting liver once a week that way. Still can't get her to eat gizzards, she gives those to the chihuahua after spitting them on the floor!
Anyway, I could use some advice? Her breeder is very supportive but since she lives in Portland and I live in Phoenix, she rarely deals with any coat breakage or dry coats. She is also a raw feeder, BTW.


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## Gradiose (Feb 10, 2011)

As far as grooming goes, what are you doing? Before we lost him last summer, I would bath my English Setter once a week, and every other week he would get a full show groom (trim, shave, strip, etc) whether we were showing or not. Clean and stimulated coat tends to grow better and break less than dirty coat that is just left alone. You should never brush the coat dry, always spray it lightly with water or a leave-in conditioner. What types of brushes are you using?
As far as feeding, I'm new to the whole raw thing as well, so not much help there. I can tell you, however, that a good friend of mine who breeds American Cockers and also feeds raw, adds a product called "Show Stopper" to her dogs food to help with coat condition. (Her quote to me when I asked why was "Wolves didnt need long shiney silky show coats, my dogs do!") I know some others use Inflight.

Show Stopper 1lb


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## Gradiose (Feb 10, 2011)

Oh, forgot to mention that what we do (we live in the extreme dry air of Colorado as well, I've never had such dry coats until we moved here!) on a regular basis is add fish oil to the dogs food. Dry coats break just as bad as dirty coats do, and adding fish oil will help keep some of that moisture in the coat.


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## tracydr (Feb 25, 2011)

I'm bathing once a week with either Nexxus or a Pure Paws Brightening shampoo. Condition with Nexxus Humectress and than blow-dry with a pin brush. No other brushing in-between because, as you said, I didn't want to brush a dry coat. Any idea what's in the Show Stopper or where I can get it? Oh, forgot to mention, she could stand to gain half a pound to a pound, which is a lot in a little girl but she's pretty fit.
I was thinking about the fish oil. I should stop by Sprouts, our health food store, and get some tomorrow for her.
My two short coated dogs just gleam but her coat shows some breakage. Whimsy but the white, especially, has breakage.


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## Gradiose (Feb 10, 2011)

I posted the link above, but here it is again.... Show Stopper 1lb

As far as whats in it, I will look it up and see if I cant find the ingredients list....


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## Gradiose (Feb 10, 2011)

Guaranteed Analysis
Protein............ 11%
Fat................ 54%
Fiber.............. 10%
Moisture........... 6%
Ash................ 6%
Carbodydrates...... 13%

K9 SHOW STOPPER Human Grade Ingredients:Beef fat, Stabilized rice bran, Chicken oil, Canola oil, Safflower oil, Stabilized flax, Extra virgin olive oil, MCTs(Medium chain Triglycerides), Evening primrose oil, Borage oil, Odor neutralized menhaden fish oil, Plant-derived DHA, SHOW PRO cooked chicken, Cooked beef, Cooked whole egg, L-Glutamine, L-Arginine, L-Taurine, L-Carnitine, Show Antioxidants Freeze dried blueberries, Citrus flavinoids, Grape skin extract, FOS (fructo-oligosaccharides), Cruciferous vegetable mix powder, Beta Carotene, Lactobacillus acidophilus casei/latis, Lycopene, Show Joints D-Glucosamine hydrocloride, TMG (trimethylgcine), MSM, Chondroitin sulfate, Hyaluronic acid, Show Muscles Creatine monohydrate, L-glutamine, K9 Vite Fuel Vitamins and mineral microencapsulated to ensure higher bioavailability, reduce oxidation loss, negate offensive taste, Natural calcium form whey isolates, Citrate, Potassium chloride, magnesium oxide, Sodium Chloride, Potassium iodide, Choline bitartrate, Vitamin E, Pyridoxine HCL, Thiamin monohydrate, Calcium lactate, Paba, Sodium selenite, 80 plus trace minerals as naturally occurring in colloidal polysilicates, Natural flavorings.


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## Ania's Mommy (Feb 8, 2009)

Tracy west said:


> I know this is partly hereditary and partly grooming but I'm wondering if anything I can feed her could help? She's been able to handle anything I give her so far and is on a decent variety. Should I add more eggs? The only thing she isn't fond of is organs, but I found out this week that she likes them seared, so she'll be getting liver once a week that way. Still can't get her to eat gizzards, she gives those to the chihuahua after spitting them on the floor!


As mentioned before, I think that the salmon oil will work well for her coat. You could also increase the amount of grass fed meat in her diet. Animals on a grass diet have higher levels of omega 3's, which are great for skin and coat.

As far as the organs, searing is fine. BUt try to do it less and less until she is eating them raw.

Gizzards aren't organs. THey are muscles. So if she isn't eating them, I wouldn't try to force the issue. 

While on the topic of organs, heart isn't one nutritionally either. It is also considered a muscle meat, albeit a very rich muscle meat.

Organs include liver, kidney, pancreas, gallbladder, and spleen.


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## cprcheetah (Jul 14, 2010)

Are you brushing the coat when it's dry? That is a no no, it causes breakage. Well at least in Standard Poodles. We never comb/brush a dry coat always use a finishing product like Crown Royale or another product which I for the life of me can't remember the name, it's a human product but works wonders. My sister uses a product called Mirracoat that has helped a TON with coat growth in her 10 month old poodle puppy. We are using Biolage Hydratherapie & Conditioning Balm on her 3 year old silver girl who is having coat breakage issues due to dryness. It's working wonders so far. I have heard Show Stopper helps a lot with coat growth.


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## tracydr (Feb 25, 2011)

Gizzards are chicken kidneys, so aren't they organs?
Thanks everyone, you're all being really helpful!


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## tracydr (Feb 25, 2011)

cprcheetah said:


> Are you brushing the coat when it's dry? That is a no no, it causes breakage. Well at least in Standard Poodles. We never comb/brush a dry coat always use a finishing product like Crown Royale or another product which I for the life of me can't remember the name, it's a human product but works wonders. My sister uses a product called Mirracoat that has helped a TON with coat growth in her 10 month old poodle puppy. We are using Biolage Hydratherapie & Conditioning Balm on her 3 year old silver girl who is having coat breakage issues due to dryness. It's working wonders so far. I have heard Show Stopper helps a lot with coat growth.


Thanks very much for all the product names, I've been looking for a finishing spray. Basically, I brush while blow drying, with a spritz of mink oil until just before dry and stop. I haven't been brushing any other time except for bath days. Pap coats don't mat or tangle so I didn't really think I should brush more often but maybe I should?


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## tracydr (Feb 25, 2011)

I think I'm going to the doggy spa tomorrow to look at sprays!


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## tracydr (Feb 25, 2011)

Any pointers on finding frozen raw herrings or sardines? I'm thinking maybe I should look at the Chinese grocery. She loves frozen fish. I'll add the fish oil and more grass fed beef, too. She had beef twice this week (ribs) but not grass fed.
I want to show her these next two show clusters before she turns twelve months because I think you can forgive a puppy's lack of furnishings a little. She also just cycled, no help there!
She's a little leggy so before showing in adult classes she's going to need plenty of furnishings to balance her height. Her ear feathers are coming along nicely but they're sable, so stronger hair.
Do you think a t-shirt might help or hurt? Our yard is gravel and her best friend is my Doberman so her lifestyle is not a normal "show toy dog" life style.


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## Ania's Mommy (Feb 8, 2009)

Tracy west said:


> Gizzards are chicken kidneys, so aren't they organs?
> Thanks everyone, you're all being really helpful!


Gizzards are NOT chicken kidneys. They are totally separate body parts. A gizzard is kinda like another stomach that helps grind food. It is 100% a muscle. Kidneys are more like a filter for blood and urine. They are 100% an organ. 



Tracy west said:


> Any pointers on finding frozen raw herrings or sardines? I'm thinking maybe I should look at the Chinese grocery. She loves frozen fish. I'll add the fish oil and more grass fed beef, too. She had beef twice this week (ribs) but not grass fed.


I think you'll have great luck with finding frozen fish of any kind at a Chinese grocery. They have fishes I've never even HEARD of at the few I've gone to. 

Both herring and sardines are great fish to feed because they have more of the good fat. And who knows, you might even find some chicken kidneys. :becky:


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## tracydr (Feb 25, 2011)

I think I know what you're talking about when you say gizzard and you're right, it's the grinding organ in the bird. But in laymen's terms, they sell chicken "gizzards" that are definitely kidneys. I've done farm animal and human anatomy and Ive also butchered enough animals to know I'm sure I'm identifying these parts that Safeway thinks are gizzards properly. In fact, it's a mixed package of hearts and kidneys and Safeway calls it chicken gizzards.


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## Ania's Mommy (Feb 8, 2009)

I think I know what you mean. I grew up thinking that "gizzards" were just chicken organs. It wasn't until I started feeding raw that I found out it was an actual body part. LOL! 

Your Safeway sounds better than mine!! The gizzards at my store are just gizzards.

Here's a handy picture of what is typically sold stuffed inside the body cavity of whole chickens:


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## 3Musketeers (Nov 4, 2010)

Well my guys are not show quality (at all) but for the most part, the fringe on the ears tends to be black/dark and it has a tendency to get oily quicker than the rest of the coat, so you may have to wash the ears more often. Paps don't usually mat, but when their fringe gets too oily I have noticed that it can mat, and untangling it you will lose a nice amount of fringe. Did I mention it takes *fooorever* to grow back? If the fringe gets ripped it will take at least 4 months for some of it to come back.

Salmon oil makes a nice difference in the coat, softer, shinier, and I can bet real fish would be better than just fish oil.
Raw has thus far only reduced shedding and oddly, darkened/saturated on of my dogs coats, the quantity/length of coat is probably more due to genetics. 
Also, how old is your pup? Generally the fringe and coat length will not reach it's best until the dog is at least 1.5-2 years of age. They also go through their "ugly puppy stage" when they start to change their coats from 4-7 months of age.

The shampoo and conditioner you use is important too, I have used many crappy ones and have had lots of fringe from the ears just fall off after bathing. After some asking around, I will be using one free of sodium laureth sulfate next to see if it helps. I don't like the whitening shampoos as I have had them sort of bleach their spots and make them duller, the white looked whiter, but it dulled down the spots.

Edit/P.S:
Red/White Paps for some reason unknown to humankind tend to have a shorter coat than their tricolor, black/white, and sable counterparts. Actually I have heard that it is because the black hairs are less dry or somethin, but don't take my word for it lol.


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## tracydr (Feb 25, 2011)

She's a fairly dark sable. Mom is B/w and dad is S/ w. I've noticed since her first heat last month her head is a slightly lighter color. Never any tangling except on her bum when she was in heat. We're in Phoenix so very, very dry. 
She's 10 months old. I'll probably do the two clusters (8shows total) coming up and then, assuming she doesn't do much, take time off until next spring and give her a year for hair coat to grow.
I'll check the shampoo ingredients. Haven't used a whiteing shampoo, just a brightening with optical brighteners for all colors every other wash. Today is wash day, then next week four washes since she has her shows, ugh! Any ideas for good healthy bait/treats? I'm thinking boiled beef heart since she's not a big liver fan, although I may try some boiled beef liver and see if she likes it that way. Would be a great way to get some extra organ meat in if she does.
Man, beef liver has been like 5.00 a pound at all our groceries lately!


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## tracydr (Feb 25, 2011)

I read one place to use a snood and t-shirt to protect the coat and not to let them play with other dogs. Sorry, but if she has to be treated like a china doll she just won't get shown! I believe her mental health is far more important than a CH in front of her name! She is sitting in my lap right now, along with my Doberman. They are exhausted after a good game of rough-housing. I may put a t-shirt on her though, protect her furnishings.
I'll check my shampoos, thanks for that tip!


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## Gradiose (Feb 10, 2011)

Coats and snoods will break coat as well, just as collars will. You really do have to decide how important the dogs coat length is to you and how far you are willing to go to make sure it stays intact. They dont have to be treated like china dolls, but you do have to take certain precautions to keep the coat intact. We had issues with our Dobe and our Setter, because the Dobe likes to "nibble" on the other dogs, and would chew the Setters coat right off. So they had to be monitored. 
I'm a huge believer in the Chris Christenson product line. We use their White On White on a regular basis to keep the Pointers clean. During our regular show season, they are getting bathed on a weekly basis in White On White and have never had any adverse affects from it (it hasnt dried out the coats, bleached out thier colors, or made anything brittle) and we always use the After Bath as well (mainly because I love how it smells! lol)
I used Ice On Ice a lot as a finishing spray on the Setter...I put it in a bigger spray bottle and use that to mist him with for his daily brushings (going back to not brushing a dry coat...) and would soak his pee feathers in it to keep them from getting stained.
I like the Isle of Dogs line as well....spendy, but VERY worth it. I would have to go find it in my tack box, but I believe it is the Primrose Oil Spray that gives them a GORGEOUS shine without leaving them greasy (I cant stand Mink Oil because of the greasy residue it leaves behind) I know a lot of drop-coated breed people use it.
Best thing to do, honestly, is talk to other breeders in your area and visit the vendors at the shows. Vendors know what people in your breed are buying and using, and the other breeders in your area are having the same climate challenges that you are.


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## tracydr (Feb 25, 2011)

I have a feeling I need to take my credit card to the show next week, lol!
I havent noticed the nibbling action. My dobe just puts the whole papillon in her mouth, very gently and slobbers all over her, yuck! I'll take a look at all those products, and introduce myself to some breeders.
Our climate is very similar to yours. I grew up in Boulder. Except, our winter is your summer, our summer is like if you stuck your head in the oven, awful!


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## tracydr (Feb 25, 2011)

Ok. I'm stopping by the health food grocery for fish oil, the Walmart for beef heart to increase her red meat intake and I'm going to also give her an egg for a snack once a day as she's a bit thin. Also, stopping at the pet boutique for a finishing spray for her bath, tonight. Dinner will be liver.
I wish I knew how to post pictures. I'm planning on taking pictures to send to the breeder after her grooming tonight!


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## Angelwing (Feb 20, 2011)

Playing with other dogs is definitely going to cause coat breakage. I run my dog on a treadmill everyday that causes some coat breakage but I'm willing to let that happen because, like you, I have a show dog but I also want her to be a dog and not live in a kennel just so that she can have perfect hair. Are you sure it's breaking or is it just genetics? She's also still young so give her some time to get her adult coat and for it to grow. It can take 2+ years for the hair to grow out to max length.

I wouldn't use a coat/t-shirt/snood/etc because they are just going to break coat. Even putting on a winter coat and booties on my dog results in breakage. Some people band hair which helps with breakage. You said you just use a pinbrush? That's good, because certain brushes will damage hair. I use Nature's Specialties products with great success. And also a big yes to not brushing a dry coat! As for bait, my dog likes Benny Bully's and Smack dehydrated treats. She also looooooves cheese (very small amounts).


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## tracydr (Feb 25, 2011)

Thanks, Angelwing! I just looked at a picture of her father and he doesn't have a lot of skirt so it could be she takes after him, rather than her mother. It's ok, at least she has a nylon, silky coat instead of the puffy Pomeranian coat which looks so wrong on a Pap. Maybe I just need patience! She's a leggy girl and when the breeder sends me pictures of her brothers they do have more furnishings, but, they are also in Portland so climate and sex are both playing a factor. And, her height, although within standard, makes her look a little like she has less hair as well. At least her pants, fringes and tail are coming alon. I'm just a perfectionist! I probably should have gotten a poodle or Maltese so that I could groom them to death but they would not fit in with my Doberman! I really needed something that could be a dog, lol and the papillon is close to perfect for that!
I'll see if I can make friends with some breeders and handlers this week and learn some AZ Papillon tricks!
I wouldn't use a coat/t-shirt/snood/etc because they are just going to break coat. Even putting on a winter coat and booties on my dog results in breakage. Some people band hair which helps with breakage. You said you just use a pinbrush? That's good, because certain brushes will damage hair. I use Nature's Specialties products with great success. And also a big yes to not brushing a dry coat! As for bait, my dog likes Benny Bully's and Smack dehydrated treats. She also looooooves cheese (very small amounts).[/QUOTE]


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