# PMR pros and cons/progress.



## Makovach (Jan 24, 2012)

I LOVE THE PMR DIET!

Major benefits I've noticed are:
Annie's gums and tumors. They are going away! We are only on month two and her large tumors are now half the size, and her smaller ones are almost not noticeable. Her gums are also going way down and you can actually see her teeth now.

Annie's hips- Before starting raw, she had trouble running, and stumbled when she walked. She limped a lot and was in pain. She got one baby asprin a day for the pain. Now she is running and playing like a pup. Some days she gets a little sore if she over does it, but it seems to be happening less and less with time. 

Weight- Annie is finally at a good weight. She has been super skinny and its been hell trying to get her to eat her whole life. She hated to eat, now she loves to eat. She is almost solid muscle. I think she could even stand to loose .5-1lb.
Tucker is solid as a brick! The boy's muscles "pop" every time he stretches or runs. He looks like he's on steroids! He went from 50lbs on the 13th after loosing 6lbs in four days. In two weeks, he is up to 59lbs. He doesn't have an ounce of fat on him. Everyone compliments on how great the dogs look.

Coat- They have been blowing coat. I'm not sure if they are shedding their winter coat, or its from detox, or maybe even a mixture of both. But with regular brushing (which is always done weekly even before raw) their coats are so much shinier and softer. They have a glow about them. 

Allergies- My friends, as well as my allergies have improved. There is not much affect on my friend when she is around my dogs anymore. She used to have to take claritin twice a day to be able to breath and she still had to deal with hives and itchies. Nothing happened with no meds when she was playing and cuddling the dogs. 

Stool- It is SO nice not to have to pick up poop anymore! They go on the tree lawn outside our apartment. Its gone by the next day. We were trying to pick it up once a day, but you just can't find it. So we stopped. (We do pick up poop in public.) 

Tucker's Allergies- I had a half bald dog, even on Grainfrees like Earthborn and Acana and wilderness. He had patches of hair missing all over his body. Everyone would tell me to take care of my dog. Everyone would say he had mange. I took him once a month and he was tested for four months straight. He did not have any mange.(though he did have it as a puppy, but it was gone by 4 months) Now his coat is full and lush for the first time in his life! 

There is just so much good to say about this diet. I'm only two months in. I can't wait to see what a year brings. There is no way I would ever feed anything to my pups but prey model raw. I've even looked into raw diets for rats. They are only fed fresh whole foods as well, and their litters are big and their babies are big and healthy as well as the mommas. 

What kind of things have you noticed since starting raw? Pros and cons? I can't think of one negative thing to say about it.


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## wolfsnaps88 (Jan 2, 2012)

I will play.

This is just MY experience: Three months in

Pros: coat quality is starting to improve, dental benefits are showing, poop is smaller and firm (not huge and squishy like with kibble) stimulation from gnawing on meaty bones

Cons: more work involved, requires a freezer if you have multiple dogs or a dog larger than a chihuahua, finding affordable sources, people thinking I am crazy for feeding raw meat to my dogs (which might not really be a con since I AM really crazy but for so much more than that!)

If you do not mind the extra work involved, have a freezer, have great sources, or do not care what people think, then you can erase all my cons.


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## Kat (Jul 12, 2011)

I cant think of a single negative thing. Havent been to the vet since I started raw, before I was going atleast twice a month. Small poops. Healthy teeth. No more wrinkle problems - on kibble her eye and nose wrinkles would always get irritated and lose hair, sometimes even get infections. She is happier, and absolutely LOVES eating now, with kibble she ate it cause that was all that was offered. Now when she even hears the word "dinner" she goes crazy. If she is sleeping on me and I say "dinner" her head shoots right up and shes running for the kitchen. Soft, shiny hair. No more allergic reactions to kibble. The list goes on and on, but Im too tired to think :tongue:


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## Makovach (Jan 24, 2012)

wolfsnaps88 said:


> I will play.
> 
> This is just MY experience: Three months in
> 
> ...


It doesn't seem like much work to me. Mostly because I was always on a hunt for new food and for toppings to put on it to get Annie to eat. I would easily spend $200-$250 a month of food for them just trying to get them to eat and gain weight. So its way cheaper on my budget. I bet I've spent a total of $140 and its been two months and I could probably feed them for a few more weeks off of what I still have. Freezer has been a pain though.


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## wolfsnaps88 (Jan 2, 2012)

Well, it is a different experience for all of us. I used to just pour kibble into a dish. sometimes I would add toppers and supplements. 

Now I have to remember to defrost. Portion out. Clean blood from surfaces. 

Am I complaining? NOOOooooooo I love feeding raw. I know it is good for them and something primal, deep down inside me, enjoys the whole process especially watching them eat. I don't know why. I just like it. I am a FrEaK. But, I know I am not the only one which is why this is my favorite dog related forum.


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## Makovach (Jan 24, 2012)

Agreed! I love that I'm not the only one! Its nice company.

Also agreed that everyone goes about it differently. For me, I buy, chop up, shove into 6quart containers and shove it in the fridge. I keep out a container of each protein in the fridge, when it gets low, I set the next container of that protein in the sink. I pull out, weigh into dishes, and put it on a blanket in the floor. For me, it is way easier than mixing up a million things trying to get them to eat, then wasting food when they wont eat. Saves a lot of money too. I really don't clean much with raw. I don't disinfect. I wash the counters down with vinegar every day when we do dishes. Thats about it. lol.


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## wolfsnaps88 (Jan 2, 2012)

I used to do this:










I had everything portioned out and labeled who got what. I did not like this method. For one, it took FOREVER. For two, it wasted a lot of ziplock baggies. I do not like reusing bags. 

Now I do this:










Sorry for hogging your thread with pictures. I am a very visual person. LOL

I find my way easier but messier with more cleaning. I just use dish soap and water. I ruined a brand new wood cutting board because no one told me not to soak them when cleaning them so now the darn thing leaks and I can not buy another one right now. boo. You live, you learn. 

What I want to do is get some gallon buckets and fill those up with meat chunks and then freeze them and defrost when needed. I might try that way some day. 

And we don't waste food. If they don't eat it, it goes in fridge until the next day. I still use ziplock baggies for breaking down 60 pound bricks of frozen beef heart into manageable chunks. At least I can coupon for those. LOL. I had a massive stickpile and then I started feeding raw...


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## Caty M (Aug 13, 2010)

Pros- easier to control variables like stool, fat content, bone content etc. Able to fully customize to the dog's needs. Both Bish and Tess have been on it since puppyhood, but Willow was switched at 10 and her teeth, even though she had just had a dental, are a lot LOT whiter.. she stinks less too. All their poops are small unless Willow's just eaten a loaf of bread or something. :frusty:

Cons- freezer space, can be more expensive, messy and smelly sometimes.


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## Makovach (Jan 24, 2012)

wolfsnaps88 said:


> I used to do this:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Your not hogging! 

I have my scale set to zero with their bowl on it (they have the same exact bowls). I pull out the container I am feeding from, throw some in the bowl till I'm happy with the weight, add their probiotics, and put the container back. Its just what clicked in my head and what I started doing.lol What I do sounds a lot like what you are talking about with the buckets. Just instead of buckets, I went to dollar tree and bough forty 6quart containers. 

I've been hoarding cottage cheese and yogurt containers for organs and tripe  My boyfriend doesn't get it. We have about 20 and he says "Isn't that enough".. It will never be enough muhahahahahaha. Heck, I bought forty of the 6 quart containers, and I've only used about 12 of them lol.


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## bridget246 (Oct 26, 2011)

Makovach said:


> Your not hogging!
> 
> I have my scale set to zero with their bowl on it (they have the same exact bowls). I pull out the container I am feeding from, throw some in the bowl till I'm happy with the weight, add their probiotics, and put the container back. Its just what clicked in my head and what I started doing.lol What I do sounds a lot like what you are talking about with the buckets. Just instead of buckets, I went to dollar tree and bough forty 6quart containers.
> 
> I've been hoarding cottage cheese and yogurt containers for organs and tripe  My boyfriend doesn't get it. We have about 20 and he says "Isn't that enough".. It will never be enough muhahahahahaha. Heck, I bought forty of the 6 quart containers, and I've only used about 12 of them lol.


I weight mines but not as much as I use to since I'm feeding mostly whole pieces. 

Before raw:

Bridget was great at first. Then she got into something that made her sick. Medications kept her sick. Bridget looked like she was going die. 

1) Carlos had really stinky gas. 

2) I am a little allergic to dogs. 

After raw:

I can't give raw all the thanks for her recovery. One of the hugest changes I made was to stop the medications and got Bridget on a decent probiotics for 2 months. Realized she was allergy to chicken so I removed that and all was good. Best thing of it all is that I don't have to worry about bloat as much as I did on kibble. She wouldn't chew her kibble so I have to find creative ways to keep her from eating too fast. 

No more food toys. Instead we have frozen meat that I'm thinking of maybe adding water to. I never knew meal time could be a workout for the dogs. Both Bridget and Carlos love going out their food for a long time. 

So I guess my points would be:

1) easier to find what the dog is allergy to if anything

2) feels more rewarding to feed

3) Nice relaxing chews 

4) Carlos still has gas but isn't as much as doesn't stink as bad. 

5) My allergy's have cleared up. 

6) People go out of their way to comment on Bridget's coat. She had a good coat before but I think it might be a little better now. And yes, she needs brushed 3 times a week at least. Not once a week like other lucky dog owners and it is a long process that she has a really hard time sitting through.


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## Makovach (Jan 24, 2012)

I think boxers have some of the worse gas! Though it is better on raw, its still rancid. ainkiller:


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## Tobi (Mar 18, 2011)

mostly just one thing i wasn't really expecting... a BRIGHT WHITE bull Terrier :lol: 

If you spend much time around the breed something you will notice right away is that they all for the most part have skin issues, their faces are usually brownish, scabby, and grungy looking, their coats usually look a little yellow... PMR has kept ma boy nice and bright imo... i don't think he'd be so pretty on dry food.
oh, and he's not had a bath in a year :lol:
Teeth are still perfectly clean and white at 2 years old, eyes are bright, never had an anal gland problem, the only thing i can't shake is the problem with his feets, but were getting there, slowly but surely making headway, and that's the only negative... even though it's not from the pmr, and it's made a vast improvement in him, even though he was only 6mo when we started.


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## xchairity_casex (Oct 8, 2011)

PROS:
Skin is in MUCH MUCH better condition (though i think he is still going thru detox)

eyes used to run and run and run when he would eat kibble/cooked chicken now they dont run or water AT ALL!

he used to have BAD BAD gass every single night now he only has gas when he eats a few people scraps that hit the ground

his ears where begining to get stinkey and yeasty never treated them jsut wiped them out with rubbing alchol but once i switched to raw havent had to they are as clean as a whistle!

used to obsessivly chew on his paws now he doesnt

used to get upset tummy and runny poops from simple tiny things now its rare for him to get soft stools before if he had one tiny tiny piece of somthign new he would have runnys BAD now he eats somthing new like a chip that falls on the floor hes totally fine he used to get runnys from fish oil now he doesnt

tiny poops!!! my bf used to complain about his poop being all over the yard and wanted me to pick it up everytime he waent i havent done that in months and like 2 weeks ago my bf thanked me for keeping on top of the poop scooping duty! HAHA

CONS: havent found a single one yet
im supriseingly good about rembering to de-frost meat ill toss 3 days worth into the fridge and when theres one meal left i toss in three more days worth works great
and i just re-use baggies i let them soak in the sink with a little bleach water (gets rid of the grease) lay them out to dry and stuff them into a jar but i got the extra heavy duty bags so they dont tear.
and i think i weighed his meal once..maybe? lol i just pretty much tossed meat together as i went along and still do and so far hes maintained a good healthy weight (you can see his last 3 ribs most of the time) he doesnt have runnys and he is VERY sensative if i feed even a few bites too much he will let me know with his bowels so i can use my eyes very well now took a few weeks to get it down though.


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## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

i could write a book. In fact, I'm sure have, right here, over the past year, on the amazing changes in my dogs.

But the big one is that I feel sure Snorkels would either be dead by now or she would be like she was, miserable six days out of seven. Constantly at the vet. Puking her guts out almost every day. What kind of life is that for a dog? 

If I get a little grossed out by eyeballs and spleen, I can deal


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

pros. 

too many to count, but here are some.

it took a while, but after two years, their coats are full on and wow, so thick i can hardly believe it. we had to bring bubba back from the bald...and we have. it's like fur on 'roids.

it's easy to prepare food for them now, compared to two years ago, when every day was portioned out with their one protein and then the introducing of the next one.

the only vet visit since last year was this year and that was for blood work.

no illnesses, other than a mild stomach ache with malia once and bubba once, in two years.

teeth are beautifully white; and, for a pug, that's saying something.

both are so brilliantly black, they are blinding....

they are softer than i've ever felt them before...and their coats are so thick, it's just amazing.

with all of that, malia is younger than she used to be and bubba is healthier. whilst i still clean his ears, no more infections. he still gets wax, but he's a pug with floppy ears. 

malia is almost thirteen. other than the white, she looks like a dog half of her age.....well, other than the saggy old woman parts LOL

the cons?

the extra five minutes it takes me to prepare their food makes it not a con.

the extra freezers we have, we would have had anyway, as i am one of those people who have to have enough food to feed the russian army. well, maybe not them. they're mean. but an army just the same.

i grew up in a house with a bomb shelter and supplies for twenty years, although i will never figure out why we needed so much toilet paper.

still, i'd have these freezers anyway.

yes, it costs more, but that's my choice. so that isn't a con.

they don't have gas as often. it depends on what i feed. fish and eggs.....nuclear.

all of those pros make the cons insignificant. 

good thread, melissa.


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## SonyaBullyDog (Jun 6, 2011)

Sonya was suffering from heartworm at the time, but she had many other things wrong with her as well. Her eyes were always goopy, she always had an ear infection in one or both ears, she had tartar and had smelly breath. Her anal glands needed to be expressed weekly. Her toes were always wet and yeasty. And her coat wasn't shiny at all. 

Now everything is gone! She still has environmental allergies, but she deals with them much better. She doesn't have eye goop anymore. No more recurring ear infections, her toes are now very clean, teeth are sparkling white. We had an issue with bad breath, but now that I think about it, she has great breath! We just needed to be patient. Her coat is also much improved. She still gets itchy sometimes, but it's no where as bad as it was before!

I haven't really thought about her improvements much, but now that I think about it, it's actually quite amazing! And it's all thanks to "Tobi" for introducing me to this forum!

Just a photo


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## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

magicre said:


> it took a while, but after two years, their coats are full on and wow, so thick i can hardly believe it. we had to bring bubba back from the bald...and we have. it's like fur on 'roids.


It's hard to imagine looking at him that he was ever bald. They both have beautiful coats.

i wish I could say the same for Rebel - I know his is mostly genetic and untreated thyroid but what hair he has brittle and oily. Some days I think he's getting softer or a little more hair but that's just wishful thinking and I don't think it's reality.

I guess the positive part is living out here he runs in grass/weeds that are taller than his head (at least until I finish mowing) and if he had fur I'd have to shave him or pick crap off him all the time. He had a foxtail stuck in his butt the other day and if he had long hair that would probably mean an infection and a vet visit.


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## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

SonyaBullyDog said:


> I haven't really thought about her improvements much, but now that I think about it, it's actually quite amazing! And it's all thanks to "Tobi" for introducing me to this forum!


I love the photo! 

We have had some changes that were so gradual and took so long I didn't even notice them. Snorkels' eye goop has all but disappeared and it didn't hit me until a few days ago that what used to be a four-times-a-day cleaning is now zero. And she doesn't have black gunk running from eyes to chin.

But that change took almost a year.


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## meganr66 (Mar 2, 2012)

I am only a little more than a month into raw but i did feed it for about 6 months approx 2 years or so ago. I always loved it but had trouble finding new sources so ended up going back to the kibble they were on beforehand. I found some pretty decent sources now and am constantly looking for more, it's actually pretty fun to look for more sources!

The dogs LOVE to eat! I mean, they've always loved to eat but my boy just goes nuts when I pull out the bowls and the scale. He hops around the kitchen (mind you he is 46 lbs hopping around my small kitchen LOL) like his booty is on fire, he just loves to eat this! They are soft, especially my boy he is younger 11 months old, but still SO SOFT! My girl Belle has put on some weight which I am very proud of, she could never keep weight on before! The poo is so much smaller and crumbles away, i haven't picked any poop up since we switched and i rarely find any in the yard to pick up regardless! They have energy for days!

I will admit sometimes i get grumbly about forgetting to thaw something out, but i switched up my method and it's going pretty well! I have a huge rubbermaid bowl/lid for chicken, also a slightly smaller container just for chicken backs, then i have a couple containers with beef in them and a big baggy with some venison.. that is currently all in my fridge LOL! when something runs low i pick it out of the freezer and let it thaw and then clean out the bowl and re-package it with food! As far as the freezer goes i have limited space (currently.. my hubby and roommate are currently hauling a giant freezer and bringing it home ) and so rubermaid tubs and whatnot wasn't seeming practical so i have been using plastic bags from the grocery store! I double bag when putting the meat in, then tie it up and write on a third bag on the outside what the meat is, then i add that and tie that up real good so it is triple bagged! Have not had a SINGLE leakage since! Before when I was using baggies i had a leak and it was MAJOR disaster! Rest of the bags were frozen together with blood juice it was awful... i couldn't even break the bags apart to get them out of the freezer i had to recruit the hubby!


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## Tobi (Mar 18, 2011)

SonyaBullyDog said:


> Sonya was suffering from heartworm at the time, but she had many other things wrong with her as well. Her eyes were always goopy, she always had an ear infection in one or both ears, she had tartar and had smelly breath. Her anal glands needed to be expressed weekly. Her toes were always wet and yeasty. And her coat wasn't shiny at all.
> 
> Now everything is gone! She still has environmental allergies, but she deals with them much better. She doesn't have eye goop anymore. No more recurring ear infections, her toes are now very clean, teeth are sparkling white. We had an issue with bad breath, but now that I think about it, she has great breath! We just needed to be patient. Her coat is also much improved. She still gets itchy sometimes, but it's no where as bad as it was before!
> 
> ...


My pleasure :thumb: I'm so glad that sonya is thriving on Raw!!! i was wondering where you'd gone for a while now! glad all is well and she's still doing awesome!


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

xellil said:


> It's hard to imagine looking at him that he was ever bald. They both have beautiful coats.
> 
> i wish I could say the same for Rebel - I know his is mostly genetic and untreated thyroid but what hair he has brittle and oily. Some days I think he's getting softer or a little more hair but that's just wishful thinking and I don't think it's reality.
> 
> I guess the positive part is living out here he runs in grass/weeds that are taller than his head (at least until I finish mowing) and if he had fur I'd have to shave him or pick crap off him all the time. He had a foxtail stuck in his butt the other day and if he had long hair that would probably mean an infection and a vet visit.


try the seed mix that the balkans gave me. it is what started the hair growth, plus you can give him natural iodine in small quantities. ask Liz on the holistic side of the forum....

the seed mix is easy. and i bet it would help.
sesame
chia
sunflower
pumpkin

put into grinder enough to break the hulls. sprinkle about a teaspoon or so on his food, daily.


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## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

magicre said:


> try the seed mix that the balkans gave me. it is what started the hair growth, plus you can give him natural iodine in small quantities. ask Liz on the holistic side of the forum....
> 
> the seed mix is easy. and i bet it would help.
> sesame
> ...


I'll try it. I was going to try it once when you were doing it and I got lazy.


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

xellil said:


> I'll try it. I was going to try it once when you were doing it and I got lazy.


i did substitute chia seeds instead of flax seeds.

chia is higher in omega threes and flax is well, a bowel irritant....and chia doesn't go bad. flax does.


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## Liz (Sep 27, 2010)

This is a great thread. I don't know where to start! 
Cons: Freezer - it was expensive but the Craig's List one died!
Packaging Meat
Forgetting the kidney thawing in your fridge until the smell almost knock you out when you go to start the human's dinner. LOL

Pros: NO MORE VETS
NO MORE VETS
They dogs love their food
Knowing exactly what they are eating
No worries as to recalls
Healthy, happy senior dogs
Beautiful, lean balanced puppies
Gorgeous - odorless coats
Clean, clear eyes, ears and teeth
Easy pregnancies for my girls
Beautiful puppies easy to wean to raw
Never having to research kibble and what to rotate to next

I could go on but I will refrain.  Thanks again for the thread


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## Rvent (Apr 15, 2012)

Makovach said:


> I think boxers have some of the worse gas! Though it is better on raw, its still rancid. ainkiller:


I don't know about boxer gas, but pit bull gas is absolutely horrible my 3 can clear my whole house in seconds, its better on Raw but hasn't totally gone away yet.


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## Rvent (Apr 15, 2012)

Makovach said:


> Your not hogging!
> 
> I have my scale set to zero with their bowl on it (they have the same exact bowls). I pull out the container I am feeding from, throw some in the bowl till I'm happy with the weight, add their probiotics, and put the container back. Its just what clicked in my head and what I started doing.lol What I do sounds a lot like what you are talking about with the buckets. Just instead of buckets, I went to dollar tree and bough forty 6quart containers.
> 
> I've been hoarding cottage cheese and yogurt containers for organs and tripe  My boyfriend doesn't get it. We have about 20 and he says "Isn't that enough".. It will never be enough muhahahahahaha. Heck, I bought forty of the 6 quart containers, and I've only used about 12 of them lol.


why do you use probiotics? do dogs need it?


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## KittyKat (Feb 11, 2011)

Liz said:


> This is a great thread. I don't know where to start!
> Cons: Freezer - it was expensive but the Craig's List one died!
> Packaging Meat
> Forgetting the kidney thawing in your fridge until the smell almost knock you out when you go to start the human's dinner. LOL
> ...


Pretty much this. Packaging meat is the big thing for us... driving out to get it, bringing it home and separating it int a days worth of food. Takes some time but totally worth it. 

No dog smell, nice coats, healthy dogs (inside and out) that are not eating processed food. It just makes sense. It's natural, and it's worth it.


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

if royal canin can have breed specific food, then i say we counter with breed specific farts.

pugs rule.


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## Sheltielover25 (Jan 18, 2011)

This is fun!

Pros: I know exactly what they're eating and how it was raised beforehand and that it's free of steroids, hormones, gmos and other nasty things. I'll never have to sedate them for a teeth cleaning. They don't have anymore tear stains/doggie odor/lush coats. They're mentally stimulated from chewing sometimes hours a day on their meals. They have the muscles to show how hard they work to eat their food, too! It keeps the occupied while I work since I work from home 

Cons: we move a lot and moving with a huge freezer can be a pain in the butt. Sometimes pet sitters can be a little weirded out. 

Now if only I could get the darn cat to switch over. She's so stubborn.


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## kathylcsw (Jul 31, 2011)

Both of my dogs are less than a year old so I can't say that I see any big difference now that they have been full raw for 4 months. They both do have super soft coats and white teeth. Their breath is ok but can smell a little right after they eat. I do feel better knowing that they won't be killed by the next dog food to have a recall. I also know they aren't eating a lot of crap that they don't need.

The biggest con is cutting up the meat. I have 3 beef hearts and a 12 1/2lb hunk of liver in the freezer right now that needs to be cut up. The heart won't be so bad but I am SO dreading the liver. I have about a lb left before I need to cut the huge one up so I can put it off another week or so. That will be a fun Saturday job? My son complains of the sometimes funky smell in the fridge. I am trying to thaw smaller amounts out so it doesn't have time to get rank. Even with those few issues I know that my pups will never eat kibble again.


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## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

kathylcsw said:


> The biggest con is cutting up the meat. I have 3 beef hearts and a 12 1/2lb hunk of liver in the freezer right now that needs to be cut up. The heart won't be so bad but I am SO dreading the liver. I have about a lb left before I need to cut the huge one up so I can put it off another week or so. That will be a fun Saturday job? My son complains of the sometimes funky smell in the fridge. I am trying to thaw smaller amounts out so it doesn't have time to get rank. Even with those few issues I know that my pups will never eat kibble again.


I cut up most of my organs almost frozen - just thawed enough to cut. Have you tried that? Stuff like liver is actually pretty cut-able when it's pretty frozen.

my brother complains about the smell in my fridge every time he comes. Frankly, it's getting on my nerves. Last time he said I need to put all the meat in a plastic tub and seal it up. He even bought me one. But I wouldn't put the meat in it, and he didn't want to touch the meat - so there.


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