# Discouraged! Need some support :-/



## ShanniBella (Jul 1, 2011)

As some of you know I've had my girl on raw pmr since April. After battling constant skin issues she has done a 360 but has thinning fur around her head and ears. I was told to add more fat into her diet before I start adding supplements to see how that works. Well she has had explosive butt and has vomited twice since leaving some skin on her chicken and this morning her puke smelled rancid like a dead animal. Feeding raw I suppose if she throws back up food from the night before then that could be common? She does well on her diet when it consists of bone everday for every meal and shes done well with chicken quarters, whole game hen, turkey necks , sardines in spring water, small amounts of chicken liver , and hearts and gizzards. She obviously has a sensitive belly so pushing the issue with the added skin/fat on her chicken seems to be an issue for her. I'm not home all day so its hard to leave her in her crate knowing she may have to relieve herself . Luckily I share a two family with my parents so my mom takes her out and takes her upstairs to her house so she's only crated a few hours a day but I still worry about those few hours . I'm fasting her today and letting her belly rest. she had diaherria and puked twice this morning.....seems as if everytime I change something in her diet this is what happens no matter how little I do or how slow I go. I've only been leaving some extra skin on for the past few days but I'm not liking the outcome and sometimes I feel like I'm doing more harm than good when I feed her raw. I don't ever want to go back to kibble but when I smell rancid vomit it makes me think about it. Anyways, thanks for listening and I'd love some opinions feedback on other avenues I maybe able to take. I'm thinking the nusentia probiotics may help her with digestion?


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## KittyKat (Feb 11, 2011)

ShanniBella said:


> As some of you know I've had my girl on raw pmr since April. After battling constant skin issues she has done a 360 but has thinning fur around her head and ears. I was told to add more fat into her diet before I start adding supplements to see how that works. Well she has had explosive butt and has vomited twice since leaving some skin on her chicken and this morning her puke smelled rancid like a dead animal. Feeding raw I suppose if she throws back up food from the night before then that could be common? She does well on her diet when it consists of bone everday for every meal and shes done well with chicken quarters, whole game hen, turkey necks , sardines in spring water, small amounts of chicken liver , and hearts and gizzards. She obviously has a sensitive belly so pushing the issue with the added skin/fat on her chicken seems to be an issue for her. I'm not home all day so its hard to leave her in her crate knowing she may have to relieve herself . Luckily I share a two family with my parents so my mom takes her out and takes her upstairs to her house so she's only crated a few hours a day but I still worry about those few hours . I'm fasting her today and letting her belly rest. she had diaherria and puked twice this morning.....seems as if everytime I change something in her diet this is what happens no matter how little I do or how slow I go. I've only been leaving some extra skin on for the past few days but I'm not liking the outcome and sometimes I feel like I'm doing more harm than good when I feed her raw. I don't ever want to go back to kibble but when I smell rancid vomit it makes me think about it. Anyways, thanks for listening and I'd love some opinions feedback on other avenues I maybe able to take. I'm thinking the nusentia probiotics may help her with digestion?


I would give some Slippery Elm as it seems like her system is out of wack.

Each capsule is about 1/4 teaspoon - 

10 pounds or less - 1/4 teaspoon
11 - 30 pounds - 1/2 teaspoon
31 - 50 pounds - 3/4 teaspoon
51 - 80 pounds - 1 teaspoon
giant breed same as adults 1 1/2 teaspoons

The fast is good as well. I would go back to no skin/fat for a few days while giving the slippery elm. Let their system settle down for a bit. Then give something bony like a chicken back with a small amount of skin on (Like the size of a quarter). Just give straight chicken/turkey for a couple of weeks and try and build up the amount of skin/fat while giving bony pieces (small incremental increases). Some dogs do need more bone - I know one of mine needs bone every meal and my other needs it almost every meal... otherwise they get runny poop.

Eventually you can try adding in things like beef heart, which can have some good fatty bits as well.


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## ShanniBella (Jul 1, 2011)

Thank you. what is slippery elms purpose and where can i get it? Whole foods?


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## Kat (Jul 12, 2011)

Considering your dog has been on raw since April... Sounds like she may need some extra help with digestion. I would try slowly introing a probiotic, and for additional fat you can even try some coconut oil, which also aids in digestion. 

Are you sure the chicken or other proteins you are feeding are not sodim enhanced? Because dogs don't do well with enhanced meats.


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## Kat (Jul 12, 2011)

ShanniBella said:


> Thank you. what is slippery elms purpose and where can i get it? Whole foods?


Slippery elm helps coat the digestive tract to help reduce inflammation. You only want to use it for a maximum of 3 days because it makes it harder for the body to absorb nutrients.


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## ShanniBella (Jul 1, 2011)

Enhanced in what way? I even look at the organic stuff and it still has 70 to 75 mg of salt in it. Are you talking just salt content or other things? I can't even afford to buy unenhanced meats or organic for my family so the dog won't get it either . I buy meats that use no antibiotics or things like that. At least I try to. I buy a lot of purdue chicken and shady brook farms turkey necks.


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## whiteleo (Sep 7, 2008)

I would do the fast and then, slowly ever so slowly add in a thumbnail size of skin with her chicken, do the thumbnail size for a week with no issue then go up to a quarter size after that and wait til there is no issues and then slowly add in more each week. Good Luck!


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## shellbell (Sep 24, 2011)

ShanniBella said:


> Enhanced in what way? I even look at the organic stuff and it still has 70 to 75 mg of salt in it. Are you talking just salt content or other things? I can't even afford to buy unenhanced meats or organic for my family so the dog won't get it either . I buy meats that use no antibiotics or things like that. At least I try to. I buy a lot of purdue chicken and shady brook farms turkey necks.


70-75mg of sodium is fine, that is naturally occurring. You want to avoid anything that has any added sodium. So if you see anything above 85mg of sodium, or if it actually says "enhanced" "salt solutions added" on the packagin, then stay away.


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

dogs like yours are the ones we go so slowly, it almost seems backwards.

so get her right again...and then do as stated above...add in skin by the fingernail......same with fat....

actually, as you progress proteins, finger nail size is the only way to go with her.


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## Liz (Sep 27, 2010)

Shannibella, please relax. i can understand how hard it is with your pup right now. Mine need bone and just now on our third year can really tolerate a totally boneless meal a few times per week. It has only been four months. To be honest your pup's body is just now getting clear of processed foods. If she is very sensitive which it seems it will take the better part of a year to be fully transitioned. It will only get better. I think that fat and organ are probably the hardest things to intro as they are rich and take a bit more to digest. Between 4-8 months my collies looked like ragamuffins. Somewhere around 8 months they started to blossom. Their coats turned richer in color and a lovely texture. their skin was soft and clear of irritants, redness, sores, etc. 

With such a sensitive dog add in tiny bits like mentioned above - really tiny. Go so slow it hurts. It will pay off in the end. Remember since April has not been that long. It sounds like a while but really she is still very new at raw feeding. Sometimes just sharing your feelings can help and I am sure you and your pup will do great.


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## ShanniBella (Jul 1, 2011)

Thank you so much everyone and I will try what has been suggested since you all are so informative and helpful. BUT can someone tell me if its normal for her vomit to smell like dead decomposing animal???


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## Liz (Sep 27, 2010)

Oh my, some burps around here can peel the paint off the walls. I can feel my hair curl from the rancid burps. Mine just don't throw up that often or I am sure I would have to call in a hazmat team to clean up.  I believe the raw meat plus tummy acids just should never see the light of day.


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## ShanniBella (Jul 1, 2011)

Thanks again everyone! Now I haven't fed her ALL day and didn't plan on feeding her tonight either. She just pooped some blood and also had an accident in her crate this afternoon which she was only in for a few hours. The stool in her crate had some bone in it to.... Now what should I do? This almost happens everytime I give her chicken backs and boneless skinless chicken thighs....it always seems to give her loose stool but this time around the skin on the chicken didn't help her either. I was going to go back to feeding her turkey necks in the morning. She really hasn't drank water all day either so how about some chicken broth diluted with water to keep her hydrated? good idea or no?


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## ShanniBella (Jul 1, 2011)

I ended up giving her a little broth about a 1/4 cup diluted with the same amount of water. I don't like the fact that she hasn't eaten all day nor drank so I felt it was best to get some liquids into her.


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## Liz (Sep 27, 2010)

You are right to keep her hydrated. I am seriously wondering if she is sensitive to chicken. If you have liver you could make a liver broth also. i would not feed tomorrow, just chicken as she sounds like her tummy is very irritated. keep up the slippery elm and chicken or liver broth and see if her gut calms. Just water won't soother her - definitely do broth.


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## DaneMama (Jun 27, 2008)

I'm sorry to hear your girly is not well! So far you've gotten stellar advice and once she's back on the right track I'm sure you'll have nothing but good results. 

Keep her hydrated and rested and keep us posted on how she's doing :thumb:


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## ShanniBella (Jul 1, 2011)

Liz said:


> You are right to keep her hydrated. I am seriously wondering if she is sensitive to chicken. If you have liver you could make a liver broth also. i would not feed tomorrow, just chicken as she sounds like her tummy is very irritated. keep up the slippery elm and chicken or liver broth and see if her gut calms. Just water won't soother her - definitely do broth.


I don't have slippery elm and am still not sure about using it or where to get it so I guess I will do the broth and let her belly rest. What do you suggest I feed her? And since she didn't eat all day yesterday when should I feed her? She is hungry and I feel terrible for her. I don't see her having issues with chicken but definitely the skin. She seems fine with chicken quarters, liver, gizzards and hearts. I fed her a whole cornish game hen the other day which she has had before but this time I left half the skin on it so this I believe is the cause of her issues. She has done great up until this. I think she may be a dog who just doesn't handle skin well and I just may have to supplement fat instead by using salmon oil or coconut oil as some suggested. I do give her canned sardines in spring water a couple times a week with no issues. I pay $5.00 for two little cans. She is also a dog who needs bone almost every meal because she will get loose stool. I do have some boneless skinless chicken breast that I just bought. Should I feed her half of one later today or will a turkey neck be better because of the bone? As I said she needs the bone and after seeing the blood in her poop she needs something to firm her up. Please let me know what you think. Thanks! You guys are great!!


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## ShanniBella (Jul 1, 2011)

I did some research on the slippery elm and I will go get some this morning at whole foods.....From what I read the tea form is best? I found a holistic website.
Slippery Elm for Better Pet Digestion


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## DaneMama (Jun 27, 2008)

I'd say you can feed her but just a small bone in meal that has fat and skin removed. 

I think the problem that happened was you left too much skin on too quickly. All of a sudden she went from hardly any skin or fat to quite a bit. I know if you go much, much slower in adding it in she will do much better. 

Once her stomach settles and gets back to normal you can try again but this next time take things agonizingly slow. 

For example: 

Day 1- leave a thumbnail size piece of skin on. 
Day 2- remove skin and fat completely or "normal" 
Day 3- leave thumbnail size
Day 4- normal
Day 5- thumbnail 
Day 6- normal
Day 7- thumbnail
Day 8- normal
Day 9-16: all thumbnail 
Day 17- double thumbnail piece
Day 18- single thumbnail
Day 19- double 
Day 20- single

So on and so forth. Only increase the amount of fat if she does well with the previous amount. Spend longer at each step if she needs it, this is just an example of how slow you can/should take it but she make take slower and longer than this or vice versa. 

Please ask questions if this doesn't make sense!


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## ShanniBella (Jul 1, 2011)

Should i still do slippery elm? I just picked up two different forms of it at whole foods? I bought the tea form that is bark powder and then i also got the slippery elm bark capsules? Which ever one is best i will return the other. This poor girl is starving! Everytime i go to the fridge she's got her nose in it and then earlier she was sitting by her freezer chest lol!


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## DaneMama (Jun 27, 2008)

Honestly I dont know which is better


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## ShanniBella (Jul 1, 2011)

DaneMama said:


> Honestly I dont know which is better


Have you used it? I'm assuming not...right? LOL! I read in some of the websites that the teas are better but I'm not sure either. She is doing well today....not exploding butt and she is hungry so I'm going to give her a small turkey neck and take it from there. She drank some more broth this morning as well


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## KittyKat (Feb 11, 2011)

I have never used the tea form, just the capsules (you can also get it in a jar). I would only give it now if she is still having digestive issues (throwing up etc.).


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## Liz (Sep 27, 2010)

We use the capsules as they are easier to dose. My boys have not liked teas and won't eat if it is added to food. the capsules they don't mind. I wouldn't use it now just keep it on hand in case she has issues again. If she does end up not doing well on chicken skin you can maybe try fattier meats like duck or fat from other meats like pork or beef. 

Really don't worry about the bone. It has just been the last four months that mine are finally tolerating boneless meals a few times per week and we have been feeding raw for 3 years.


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## ShanniBella (Jul 1, 2011)

Settled then....I'll take back the tea form and keep the capsules until next time which I'm hoping there won't be one  She ate her turkey neck and all has been well.


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## ShanniBella (Jul 1, 2011)

Well, she's back to normal with her crazy appetite and all. I have her on Turkey necks, chicken gizzards and hearts, and a few sardines. I also have started her on some small amounts of coconut oil and she loves the taste. I never realized how many benefits this kind of oil has. I have been giving her small amounts of chicken liver to and at least a couple days a week I give her a few pieces of stew beef so she gets variety just not a lot of fatty skin or fatty meats. I think I'm going to see how she does with the added fish oils and coconut oil and take it from there. Sardines are fatty and I give her those a few days a week but just a few whole ones at a time along with some of the juice/oil. I also started adding the nusentia probiotics to her breakfast and see if that helps her as well. So far so good!! Just wanted to give a quick update and thank you for all the help!


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