# Antibiotic & Hormone Free?



## Tucker's Mom (Apr 15, 2011)

Do you all think feeding antibiotic & hormone free raw meat is important, or does it not matter? Why or why not? It seems important to me but I haven't seen it mentioned. I'm very curious as to what you all think about this as it is a confusing issue to me.
Thanks!


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## Savage Destiny (Mar 16, 2011)

I never used to bother with this, since regular meat is so much cheaper. Now that Riddle has cancer, though, I only buy antibiotic and hormone free meat for her, since I've become paranoid about any extra chemicals, preservatives, etc. going into her.


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## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

Well, chickens from the grocery store can't have hormones. But they are usually loaded with salt and the chickens themselves may have had a bunch of antibiotics.

I try to get chickens that don't have all the salt, although I don't necessarily look for totally organic (whatever that means - it's not a term regulated by the USDA so could mean alot of things).


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## KittyKat (Feb 11, 2011)

I buy from a local butcher so whatever he sells come from local farmers that don't use hormones and the like (most of that stuff is banned here anyways).

Although super markets offer various kinds of chicken and the like, and some isn't air chilled so it has added water weight. I get some stuff from the supermarkets.

I'm not sure on antibiotics and the like as i'm not sure how thats regulated in terms of "organic" meat.


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## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

KittyKat said:


> I buy from a local butcher so whatever he sells come from local farmers that don't use hormones and the like (most of that stuff is banned here anyways).
> 
> Although super markets offer various kinds of chicken and the like, and some isn't air chilled so it has added water weight. I get some stuff from the supermarkets.
> 
> I'm not sure on antibiotics and the like as i'm not sure how thats regulated in terms of "organic" meat.


I actually took the time to look at the chicken in my grocery store, which I had never done before - every package I picked up had 80 mg to 280 mg per serving, of salt. I was really amazed - until I came here, I never looked - always assumed it was just chicken.


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## whiteleo (Sep 7, 2008)

I'm pretty particular about what I feed my "children", since pretty much the very beginning of feeding a raw diet to my dogs I have looked for appropriate foods that I would eat myself as my naturopath took me off "over the counter meat" because of going through the "change " and my estrogen levels were way out of whack.

You'd be surprised at the difference it can make in a human so I would imagine it does make a difference in dogs too. Look at Orijen who only uses grass fed, A/H free animals in it's kibble. Some people have given me grief for what I do for my dogs but indeed I do think it will make a difference in the long run, and the fact that I also have a wonderful raw feeding co-op that has the same belief system that I do helps.


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## Tobi (Mar 18, 2011)

We try to find good deals on them, we also try really hard for wild game though as it's about as natural as it gets \
Like said earlier it can make a difference, it just depends on your budget for all natural meats, it can be 3-5X more.


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## SpooOwner (Oct 1, 2010)

As Tobi said, there's a tension between my budget and getting the highest quality meats for my dog. I fully believe that antibiotic-free meats are better, but I'm unwilling to pay those prices for every single meal. I try to mix in higher quality meats as much as I can. I'm paying $0.20 more/lb for whole chicken, which is hormone and antibiotic-free but not grass-fed. In the next few months, I'll tackle the question of whether to buy high quality beef/red meat, which I don't feed as often but is more nutritious, or high quality chicken, which is the single largest protein source that my dog eats but doesn't offer a lot of nutrition.


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## 3Musketeers (Nov 4, 2010)

I do think grass-fed organic meats are the way to go...if you can afford it.
Going to one of those fresh-markets and seeing grass-fed beef at 12.99lb (here it is) is neither fun nor affordable.


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## Angelwing (Feb 20, 2011)

No way I would be able to afford grass fed organic meats, regular meat is WAY overpriced here as it is. From some of the prices I've seen on here I easily pay 2-3x the amount for regular meat than a lot of you americans do.


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

i think if we didn't have our co op, i'd not be buying 16.99/lb meat for myself or my animals...

the wallet only stretches so far...and lifestyle is a factor, also....

i can foresee moving to a highrise apartment and not having the luxury of all our freezers....shopping every few days for us and the dogs....so , the dogs might be eating grocery store beef, etc.....and i'll still sleep at night.


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## sassymaxmom (Dec 7, 2008)

Right. Grocery store fresh meat is still head and shoulders above the trimmings from that same animal ground up and rendered into meal. Grass fed and pastured are good, I don't much care about organic but it is a regulated term now. Those organic chickens are fed organic soy and corn.


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## naturalfeddogs (Jan 6, 2011)

3Musketeers said:


> I do think grass-fed organic meats are the way to go...if you can afford it.
> Going to one of those fresh-markets and seeing grass-fed beef at 12.99lb (here it is) is neither fun nor affordable.


12.99lb? whoa!!!:faint2:


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## whiteleo (Sep 7, 2008)

I definitely would not pay those kind of prices for my dogs, although I have bought them a half a beef before and ate some of it myself.


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## Angelwing (Feb 20, 2011)

I try not to pay much over $3/lb for most meats. I just found some grass fed heart, tongue, liver and kidney for $2.80lb! I think that's pretty good.


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

whiteleo said:


> I definitely would not pay those kind of prices for my dogs, although I have bought them a half a beef before and ate some of it myself.


my honey and i enjoy a steak now and again....16.99 at top for the grass fed, organic, free range, free of everything.....dipped in gold ...

it's enough to make me never eat steak. i find that offensive......that cow was no different alive than the ones we buy for our dogs from our co op......


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## Angelwing (Feb 20, 2011)

There is a difference, the price is just not worth it most of the time.


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## Tucker's Mom (Apr 15, 2011)

Savage Destiny said:


> I never used to bother with this, since regular meat is so much cheaper. Now that Riddle has cancer, though, I only buy antibiotic and hormone free meat for her, since I've become paranoid about any extra chemicals, preservatives, etc. going into her.


Oh, I'm so sorry your Riddle has cancer  I spoke with someone at the Pet Store a few days ago who said she had a friend whose dog got liver cancer. He lived another 4 years after the diagnosis! She thinks it's because she started feeding him raw and it helped support his immune system.

All the best to you and Riddle.


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## Tucker's Mom (Apr 15, 2011)

whiteleo said:


> I'm pretty particular about what I feed my "children", since pretty much the very beginning of feeding a raw diet to my dogs I have looked for appropriate foods that I would eat myself as my naturopath took me off "over the counter meat" because of going through the "change " and my estrogen levels were way out of whack.
> 
> You'd be surprised at the difference it can make in a human so I would imagine it does make a difference in dogs too. Look at Orijen who only uses grass fed, A/H free animals in it's kibble. Some people have given me grief for what I do for my dogs but indeed I do think it will make a difference in the long run, and the fact that I also have a wonderful raw feeding co-op that has the same belief system that I do helps.


This is the direction I am going in. I won't buy A/H chicken or meat (only eat it if I'm at a restaurant), and I don't want to give it to my dog either, but I was curious as to what you all thought about it


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## Tucker's Mom (Apr 15, 2011)

Tobi said:


> We try to find good deals on them, we also try really hard for wild game though as it's about as natural as it gets \
> Like said earlier it can make a difference, it just depends on your budget for all natural meats, it can be 3-5X more.


I hadn't thought about the wild game aspect - thanks for enlightening me!


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## Tucker's Mom (Apr 15, 2011)

SpooOwner said:


> As Tobi said, there's a tension between my budget and getting the highest quality meats for my dog. I fully believe that antibiotic-free meats are better, but I'm unwilling to pay those prices for every single meal. I try to mix in higher quality meats as much as I can. I'm paying $0.20 more/lb for whole chicken, which is hormone and antibiotic-free but not grass-fed. In the next few months, I'll tackle the question of whether to buy high quality beef/red meat, which I don't feed as often but is more nutritious, or high quality chicken, which is the single largest protein source that my dog eats but doesn't offer a lot of nutrition.


Chicken doesn't offer a lot of nutrition? How so? Appreciate your input!


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## Tucker's Mom (Apr 15, 2011)

3Musketeers said:


> I do think grass-fed organic meats are the way to go...if you can afford it.
> Going to one of those fresh-markets and seeing grass-fed beef at 12.99lb (here it is) is neither fun nor affordable.


I don't eat/buy beef myself, so the price you quoted was a real eye opener! Wow!


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## SpooOwner (Oct 1, 2010)

Tucker's Mom said:


> Chicken doesn't offer a lot of nutrition? How so? Appreciate your input!


Most raw feeders report that their dogs do best on a mostly red meat diet. Again, not a lot of science, but it seems that chicken offers relatively few vitamins and minerals (whether it's because chicken is low in absolute amounts or it's simply not very useable by dogs, I don't know). So my internal debate is really to about whether my dog is better served if I increase the quality of the highest-quality meats that she gets or the lowest-quality meats that she gets. Does that make more sense? I don't mean to say chicken isn't a good part of the diet, just that dogs seem to do better on richer meats. Some things are easier to explain in person than via computer (especially if I haven't had my morning caffeine fix).


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## RaisingWolves (Mar 19, 2011)

SpooOwner, I've read that turkey is a better than chicken. I feed more rabbit than I do chicken, but recently read that rabbit is low in essential fatty acids? Can anyone tell me if this is true? I feed rabbit more than I do chicken. 
Is rabbit considered red or white meat. Sorry if this is a dumb question. I honestly don't know!:redface:


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## Northwoods10 (Nov 22, 2010)

I wish we could afford it, but no. My dogs eat human quality meats, and to me, that is steps above any commercial kibble out there. So I am happy with that. If I could afford it, by all means I would.

But for now, we'll do what we can. And this fall we are going to make every effort we can to harvest & process a few deer so that we can include fresh, wild, red meat into their diet.


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## whiteleo (Sep 7, 2008)

Rabbit is very lean, and lacking in essential fatty acids. If you just provide a good variety of meats to your dogs and not stick to one particular kind of meat or two you will be good, I mix up as much variety in a week as possible between venison heart, lamb heart, beef heart, chicken , pork ribs, turkey necks, fish, llama and goat and of course tripe, but dogs are out right now. They are very unhappy about that!


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

Savage Destiny said:


> I never used to bother with this, since regular meat is so much cheaper. Now that Riddle has cancer, though, I only buy antibiotic and hormone free meat for her, since I've become paranoid about any extra chemicals, preservatives, etc. going into her.


have you noticed a difference?


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## 3Musketeers (Nov 4, 2010)

RaisingWolves said:


> SpooOwner, I've read that turkey is a better than chicken. I feed more rabbit than I do chicken, but recently read that rabbit is low in essential fatty acids? Can anyone tell me if this is true? I feed rabbit more than I do chicken.
> Is rabbit considered red or white meat. Sorry if this is a dumb question. I honestly don't know!:redface:


I think the general rule is:
Birds = white meat
Mammals = Red Meat


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## Paws&Tails (Sep 3, 2010)

I feed Spike only grass fed, organic, and, for the most part, local meats. I know it is better for him. The meat in general has more/better nutrition. It's lack of pesticides etc. is better for _anyone_, humans or animals overall. It also supports my local farmers. I know the animals are treated with love and care and have a proper environment.

However, if I couldn't afford to anymore, I would be perfectly fine with feeding grocery store meat. It's still leaps and bounds ahead of any commercial food you could ever feed. I may not be able to afford it in the (maybe very near) future if the economy keeps going where it's going.


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## TuckersMom (Apr 27, 2011)

SpooOwner said:


> Most raw feeders report that their dogs do best on a mostly red meat diet. Again, not a lot of science, but it seems that chicken offers relatively few vitamins and minerals (whether it's because chicken is low in absolute amounts or it's simply not very useable by dogs, I don't know). So my internal debate is really to about whether my dog is better served if I increase the quality of the highest-quality meats that she gets or the lowest-quality meats that she gets. Does that make more sense? I don't mean to say chicken isn't a good part of the diet, just that dogs seem to do better on richer meats. Some things are easier to explain in person than via computer (especially if I haven't had my morning caffeine fix).


Yes, that makes sense. Thank you for explaining it to me!


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## SpooOwner (Oct 1, 2010)

RaisingWolves said:


> SpooOwner, I've read that turkey is a better than chicken. I feed more rabbit than I do chicken, but recently read that rabbit is low in essential fatty acids? Can anyone tell me if this is true? I feed rabbit more than I do chicken.
> Is rabbit considered red or white meat. Sorry if this is a dumb question. I honestly don't know!:redface:





whiteleo said:


> Rabbit is very lean, and lacking in essential fatty acids. If you just provide a good variety of meats to your dogs and not stick to one particular kind of meat or two you will be good, I mix up as much variety in a week as possible between venison heart, lamb heart, beef heart, chicken , pork ribs, turkey necks, fish, llama and goat and of course tripe, but dogs are out right now. They are very unhappy about that!


Sorry to respond late. I've never looked up the amounts (on USDA), but I've heard the same things that you and WhiteLeo say. Variety is, of course, the key. 



3Musketeers said:


> I think the general rule is:
> Birds = white meat
> Mammals = Red Meat


Yeah, that's my understanding. But I'm a vegetarian, so this is all new to me!


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## TuckersMom (Apr 27, 2011)

SpooOwner said:


> Sorry to respond late. I've never looked up the amounts (on USDA), but I've heard the same things that you and WhiteLeo say. Variety is, of course, the key.
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah, that's my understanding. But I'm a vegetarian, so this is all new to me!


I am mostly a vegetarian too! I don't eat anything with four legs. This is causing me internal turmoil because I don't know if I can "handle" feeding Tucker organ parts, feet, etc. How do you do it? Maybe it relates to why a person is a vegetarian?

Also, where do you buy organ parts? I only want to feed Tucker steroid/antibiotic/hormone free meats.


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## whiteleo (Sep 7, 2008)

If you have a community co-op that sells pretty much all organic groceries and vitamins, you can find organs there that are from grass fed cows or sheep and chickens too.


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## TuckersMom (Apr 27, 2011)

whiteleo said:


> If you have a community co-op that sells pretty much all organic groceries and vitamins, you can find organs there that are from grass fed cows or sheep and chickens too.


What is a community co-op and how do I look for one? Thank you! :smile:


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## whiteleo (Sep 7, 2008)

Well mine is just that, a grocery store that has all organic vegetables and groceries. Have you tried looking in the yellow pages under Organic and groceries. I know you have a small dog and it probably wouldn't be feasible to buy in bulk especially organs as they don't go through that much of them.


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## whiteleo (Sep 7, 2008)

You can also try this as this is something I found for someone looking for a raw feeding co-op in southern CA www.socalbarf.com


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## SpooOwner (Oct 1, 2010)

TuckersMom said:


> I am mostly a vegetarian too! I don't eat anything with four legs. This is causing me internal turmoil because I don't know if I can "handle" feeding Tucker organ parts, feet, etc. How do you do it? Maybe it relates to why a person is a vegetarian?


Maybe it does - I originally became veg for health reasons, and over time the animal welfare aspects and sustainability concerns crept up on me. When I started feeding raw, I was a little squeamish at first with some of the meats/cuts, but it has lessened. It's gotten easier to cut apart a bird. Pigs feet still gross me out (you can see Wilbur's toenails!), but they're too bony for Mia anyway.

For me the main issue is working towards feeding only ethically raised animals/meats. I put so much effort into giving Mia a species appropriate life - exercise, socialization, food, healthcare, training, it's all part of being a responsible owner, IMO. Nonetheless, I feed her predominantly meats from animals that aren't given the same treatment. They're not as nutritious for Mia, and I'm supporting a regime of animal abuse. Not cool. I realize it will cost more, but I think the extra cost is actually reflective of the "true cost" of dog ownership (internalizing externalities, if you will).

I'm satisfied with incremental improvements. It took me four weeks of dog ownership to switch from Blue Buffalo, to Acana, to raw. And it's taken me six months to find suppliers and get the price down to about $1.47/lb (being a nerd, I have a spreadsheet to keep track of avg price, ratios of red meatoultry:fish, and ratios of bone:musclergan). Now I'm starting to look for higher quality meats and work in my ethical issues. I found a halal abattoir where I can get lamb and beef at decent prices. I'm not sure that the animals are grass-fed, but they are given a vegetarian diet, which is, sadly, an improvement over store bought meats. I found another abattoir that offers beef and pork, but I have to find out more about how the animals are raised.



TuckersMom said:


> Also, where do you buy organ parts? I only want to feed Tucker steroid/antibiotic/hormone free meats.


Right now they're coming from a variety of sources. Most of the organs I feed are beef, with some chicken and fish. I'm hopeful that the halal abattoir will be a good source of veg-fed and steroid/antibiotic/hormone-free organs. After exhausting my local resources, I may discover that Hare Today is worth the price.


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## Paws&Tails (Sep 3, 2010)

TuckersMom said:


> I am mostly a vegetarian too! I don't eat anything with four legs. This is causing me internal turmoil because I don't know if I can "handle" feeding Tucker organ parts, feet, etc. How do you do it? Maybe it relates to why a person is a vegetarian?
> 
> Also, where do you buy organ parts? I only want to feed Tucker steroid/antibiotic/hormone free meats.


Hey, me 3! I didn't think I would be able to handle the meat unless I had plastic gloves on, but I'm okay with it now. I handle it with no gloves now. Except for organs. Those still make me gag. I don't think I'll ever come around to those.

I became veg because I only ever liked the taste of breaded chicken and the thought of what meat was grossed me out. It also gave me heartburn. I've been veg for 4 years now and haven't looked back. I'm even leaning more towards vegan as of late.


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## swolek (Mar 31, 2011)

Hey, I'm another vegetarian (9 years) who just switched over to raw. I originally fed the pre-made patties which weren't a big deal but I'll admit that cutting up chicken for the first time wasn't pleasant for me, haha. The texture was so slimy! I'm not too squeamish of a person but I still don't enjoy handling the meat. I'm not sure how organs will go but I've been fine with dissecting animals (biology major) so I think I'll be ok.

It was weird to buy meat at first (since I became vegetarian as a kid, I literally had never bought or handled raw meat) but now I like shopping around for good deals and interesting cuts of meat. I like knowing where the meat comes from (I'm able to get local meat from a butcher), as opposed to when I bought kibble. Plus, I want what's best for my dog and I believe PMR is the best . My dietary choices shouldn't have to affect my carnivorous pets. I can still share salads with my rabbits .


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## SpooOwner (Oct 1, 2010)

Ha! Yeah, I was a neuro major. Worked on Zebra Finches. Cutting apart my first turkey was _hard_.


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## TuckersMom (Apr 27, 2011)

whiteleo said:


> You can also try this as this is something I found for someone looking for a raw feeding co-op in southern CA www.socalbarf.com


Thank you for the resources!


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## TuckersMom (Apr 27, 2011)

Maybe it does - I originally became veg for health reasons, and over time the animal welfare aspects and sustainability concerns crept up on me. When I started feeding raw, I was a little squeamish at first with some of the meats/cuts, but it has lessened. It's gotten easier to cut apart a bird. Pigs feet still gross me out (you can see Wilbur's toenails!), but they're too bony for Mia anyway.

For me the main issue is working towards feeding only ethically raised animals/meats. 

*This is my issue exactly. How the animals are raised, what they're fed, how they're treated and how they're killed.*

I put so much effort into giving Mia a species appropriate life - exercise, socialization, food, healthcare, training, it's all part of being a responsible owner, IMO. Nonetheless, I feed her predominantly meats from animals that aren't given the same treatment. They're not as nutritious for Mia, and I'm supporting a regime of animal abuse. Not cool. I realize it will cost more, but I think the extra cost is actually reflective of the "true cost" of dog ownership (internalizing externalities, if you will).

*Very well put!*

I'm satisfied with incremental improvements. It took me four weeks of dog ownership to switch from Blue Buffalo, to Acana, to raw. 

*Well, it's taken me a lot longer than that! :smile: I'm satisfied with incremental improvements too. I'm moving at a speed that is most comfortable for me.*

And it's taken me six months to find suppliers and get the price down to about $1.47/lb (being a nerd, I have a spreadsheet to keep track of avg price, ratios of red meatoultry:fish, and ratios of bone:musclergan). Now I'm starting to look for higher quality meats and work in my ethical issues. I found a halal abattoir where I can get lamb and beef at decent prices. I'm not sure that the animals are grass-fed, but they are given a vegetarian diet, which is, sadly, an improvement over store bought meats. I found another abattoir that offers beef and pork, but I have to find out more about how the animals are raised.

*Spreadsheets are good!*

*I was at Whole Foods today and was able to find everything I need! The natural chicken backs were $1.59 lb. That's probably expensive, but I got three for 2.88 and feel pretty good about it.*

Right now they're coming from a variety of sources. Most of the organs I feed are beef, with some chicken and fish. I'm hopeful that the halal abattoir will be a good source of veg-fed and steroid/antibiotic/hormone-free organs. After exhausting my local resources, I may discover that Hare Today is worth the price.
*
Whole Foods can order me heart and kidneys. They had liver and fed it to Tucker tonight. Of course he loved it!

Sorry for the late reply!* * btw, how do you multi-quote me, like you did above? I checked the instructions and didn't find it mentioned. I'd like to know how to do it :smile:*


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## SpooOwner (Oct 1, 2010)

TuckersMom said:


> Sorry for the late reply! btw, how do you multi-quote me, like you did above? I checked the instructions and didn't find it mentioned. I'd like to know how to do it :smile:


Ha, no worries. To multi-quote: click on the button to the right of the "Reply with Quote" icon - it looks like an air-quote with a plus sign. Select each of the posts you want to quote, and when you're done, hit either of the "Reply" buttons.

I had no idea that Whole Foods could order all of that! The guys at my local WF have never spent that much time talking with me - they just point me to some marrow bones at an end-cap and move on to the next customer. Maybe I'll have to be pushier. I'm going to talk with a local co-op as well - I know I'm not the only one with these interests in my area.


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