# Bad Experience on Raw?



## SpooOwner (Oct 1, 2010)

Has anyone had a bad experience with raw? I'm not looking to start a fight, I just want a full picture of the benefits and complications of a raw diet. I buy into the theory of raw and I know my dog loves her raw meals, but I want to make sure I hear from both sides and make an educated decision.

Feel free to PM me if you'd prefer to stay anonymous.


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## deb9017 (Aug 31, 2010)

I am interested to see the answer to this too. I often wondered the same thing. I did a lot of research before I switched to raw, and I could not really find anywhere where someone had a really bad experience. There were some where they tried it real temporarily and their dogs had problems with diarrhea, but I always got the feeling that they just did not give it long enough before they quit. I have not really found any horror stories, or people that even had real problems with it!


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## Unosmom (May 3, 2009)

theres a lot of antiraw articles circling the web, how many of them are actually truthful is hard to tell. 
Probably one of the most common issue is dogs cracking teeth on harder bones, but for that reason never give your dogs weight bearing bare bones, even so, some dogs are genetically predisposed to weaker teeth, so its good idea to stick with something small like chicken/turkey.


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## DaneMama (Jun 27, 2008)

Are you talking about a bad experience in the long term? Like years? I haven't heard any stories of dogs developing food related diseases because of it, if they feed raw appropriately...whether that is BARF, PMR, etc. One can for sure feed a raw diet that is lacking in some way and cause a deficiency, but I that is blamed on user error for them not doing their full research etc. 

I also believe the people who have had bad experiences on raw 1) didn't switch over correctly (because there are many ways to do it wrong, like rushing things!) 2) didn't give it enough time for their dogs to adjust (they were scared possibly...which can be remedied if you surround yourself with a knowledgeable and experienced community) 3)were scared off of raw by their vets or the "myths" or "horrors" of raw. 

I'm on a few raw lists and I can remember one raw fed dog coming down with a thyroid disorder, and another coming down with Addisons disease. Both of which can have a genetic predisposition for. I'm sure there are more out there. 

I think the positive effects from switching to a raw diet far outweigh the true bad experiences. I just did a full blood work panel on Bailey who has been raw fed for a few years now, and everything came back beautiful. I had bloodwork done about 7 months ago when she got into her accident and things were good then as well (one liver value was at the high end of normal, but I talked to several vets and they said that serious trauma can cause some levels to be falsely high). I also did bloodwork on her back when I had her on a grain free, high peotein diet and her kidneys values were always above the high end of normal. I have personally come to the understanding that high protein kibbles aren't ideal for dogs at all.


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## CorgiPaws (Mar 31, 2009)

I had a simply awful experience with raw.

Annie gutted a Tilapia on my living room carpet while I wasn't paying attention. 


OH! you mean with ill effects on my dogs?
Absolutely not. 


But it's not hard to do. Switching improperly, moving too fast, or over feeding are sure fire ways to induce cannon butt.


ETA: My apartment smelled like fish for three days. And I HATE fish.


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## SpooOwner (Oct 1, 2010)

Corgi - hilarious!

It's great to hear from all of the proponents of raw, but I really want to hear from people who tried raw but stopped because of bad effects on their dogs.

Here's an analogy. The current trend in feeding is towards grain-free, whether kibble or raw. However, I know people who have dogs that do better when fed some grains. They don't like to share this because they get lambasted by the folks who simply cannot believe that this is true. But these are responsible, involved dog owners who found that their dogs were healthier when fed a grain-inclusive diet, and even if they are a minority, it's helpful to me - as I experiment to find the optimal diet for my puppy - to hear from them.

Similarly, I'd like to hear from anyone whose dog did not do well on raw and switched back to dry or canned food.


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## ann g (May 6, 2010)

SpooOwner said:


> Corgi - hilarious!
> 
> It's great to hear from all of the proponents of raw, but I really want to hear from people who tried raw but stopped because of bad effects on their dogs.
> 
> ...


Mine doesn't do well on grain free, we've done the Orijen and Acana route but he does so much better with grain inclusive.


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## cprcheetah (Jul 14, 2010)

The only 'bad' experience I have had with raw was the first week of feeding Zoey got constipated and didn't poop for almost 72 hours. I was about ready to give up and go back to kibble, but I asked on forums/groups I'm on everyone suggested giving her some boneless meals and she pooped that night. I was REALLY worried & concerned about her, was even ready to take her to the vet for an emergency enema. But I am SOOOOOO glad I stuck with raw, her allergies are SO much better than they were even on a grain free kibble. She is no longer on an antihistamine or a urinary acidifier. Shellie took longer to transition than my other dogs had lots of bouts with rocket butt, NOT fun to clean up but a lot was my error for trying to transition her to things she wasn't ready for. EVERY dog is different as to what & when they can handle certain proteins etc. Shellie has always been sensitive she couldn't handle most grain inclusive diets without getting diarrhea.


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## 3Musketeers (Nov 4, 2010)

I too had some horrible experiences with my dogs eating chicken all over my pillows and defrosting meats stolen off the edge of the kitchen counter and dragged all over the place leaving a big bloody mess. But all's going great with the dogs, and I learned to feed outside now .


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## SamWu1 (Oct 15, 2010)

There are a few people that have dogs that doesn't do well on raw and they've actually gave it a fair trial. Most however, try it for a few days, the poop is runny or the dog vomits and raw becomes dangerous in their minds.

My buddy had a Boxer I suggested raw to. He ate it for several days and his poop was runny so he gave up. It takes time for the animal to become acclaimed to his new meals so be patient.

If I gave my dog kibble for a few days, he would have nothing but diarrhea because he's been eating raw all his life. Doesn't mean the kibble is poison. Raw is the right thing to do, it's easy, inexpensive and the absolute best preventive measure for future illnesses.


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## DaneMama (Jun 27, 2008)

SpooOwner said:


> Corgi - hilarious!
> 
> It's great to hear from all of the proponents of raw, but I really want to hear from people who tried raw but stopped because of bad effects on their dogs.


I still think this question is too vague. Lots of people give up on raw, because their dogs have bad diarrhea or vomiting when making the switch. Some dogs are just harder to switch over than others and more often than not people don't switch over correctly. That is why I put so much of my free time into helping people do it right because the lasting benefits are incredible. I have yet to know of someone who stopped raw feeding after years of doing so because of a health issue associated with raw feeding. Many will stop due to cost or living situations, but usually the people who do feed raw feel very passionate about it and would never go back to commercially processed foods.



> Here's an analogy. The current trend in feeding is towards grain-free, whether kibble or raw. However, I know people who have dogs that do better when fed some grains. They don't like to share this because they get lambasted by the folks who simply cannot believe that this is true. But these are responsible, involved dog owners who found that their dogs were healthier when fed a grain-inclusive diet, and even if they are a minority, it's helpful to me - as I experiment to find the optimal diet for my puppy - to hear from them.


The problem with this analogy is that you cannot compare feeding raw with feeding a grain free food. They are not even similar, since with grain free foods there is still a carbohydrate source and its a LOT higher in protein than raw. You could compare the different styles of raw feeding but not with a kibble.


In my experience many dogs don't do well on a high protein, grain free dog food but do better on a grain inclusive food. I believe this is because the grain free foods are very rich, high in protein and some dogs just can't handle it. But saying that the dogs who do better on a grain inclusive diet need grains to do well is not entirely true. Again, feeding a raw diet is completely different than feed any kibble diet.

ETA: I moved this thread to the Raw forum because its really not appropriate for the kibble forum.


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## luvMyBRT (Mar 8, 2010)

I agree with the others. I think the majority of bad experiences comes from the owner messing up...not the dog. If switched correctly and everything is done slowly, there is usually not too many problems. Duncan went through a bout of diarrhea. Guess what? My fault! Not his. Lesson learned: Do not over feed!

I guess my next worst raw experience was the raw egg I dropped on the kitchen floor this morning. Woops! But, never fear....Duncan was right there and took care of it. LOL :tongue:


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

my first experience with feeding raw was horrendous.....my dogs had black inky liquid for stools....and they were not doing well at all.

i went back to home cooking until i wrote to a friend of mine on this board, who, walked me through the process...

turns out it was user error...that would be me.....

and as i gain experience and read the boards and articles, i am struck by just how much user error there is and by the naivete and misinformation....and myths that are bandied about as if it were carved in stone.

my research has taken me about a year before i ever started and while i had some things down, there were a few things i did not take into consideration....

now my research involves nutrients and how best to get them from various proteins and de mything the myths and misbeliefs out there for the sake of my dogs..


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## CorgiPaws (Mar 31, 2009)

Alright, in all seriousness: my first go at raw with Annie wasn't a walk in the park.
She was shiny, she has sparkling teeth, she had solid stools: BUT, boy was she skinny. SO skinny I got looks and comments, and even knew myself: she was beyond lean. She had ribs, and hips popping out all over the place. if I fed her even slightly more, we had cannon butt. It was a constant walking the line. too much food was bad for her, but I wanted to get as much in her as I could to get her to gain weight. 
A few other factors came into play when I moved, and I gave up on raw after a year. For about 6 weeks, I fed kibble. It was HORRENDOUS. She did gain weight, mind you... but cannon butt to the extreme. Waking up 4, 5, 6 times in the middle of the night. Vomiting after almost every meal. It was all the reasons I left kibble in the first place. 
So, I sucked it up, got rid of my dining room table to make room for a freezer (or two) and went back to raw. 
This time around, she's doing awesome, and her weight actually looks better than it has in her entire life. 

I don't think the problem was raw itself, rather the way I was feeding it. I, at the time, had three dogs on raw, and fed them exactly the same. In reality, Annie really requires more bone than average. I included more turkey necks in the place of chicken quarters for her, and added a LOT more beef heart into her diet, and she's doing amazing. She gets a beef heart/ turkey neck combo meal about three nights a week. (with something else for her other meal, obviously) I also was trying to feed her once a day. I've come to the conclusion that it's just too much at a time for her Boxer tummy, and she really just does best with two smaller meals per day. She's also got a very fast metabolism, and is very, VERY active, playing at daycare up to 12 hours a day sometimes. the 2-3% rule of thumb is out the window at our house. I don't even think twice about it. 
Zailey, expected to be about 120lbs "should" be eating 2.5-3.5 lbs/day according to that. She'd be a dang cow. She eats MAYBE 2 lbs. maybe. 
Annie, topping out at about 53 lbs "should" be eating 1-1.5lbs per day. She'd be skin and bones. She actually eats upwards of 2.5-3 lbs per day. Double what she "should".

See, most of my issues were in fact operator error, BUT yet I followed all the "guidelines" I just was not tailoring it to MY dog's needs. I think that's so important to remember. I think a lot of people whom PMR "doesn't work out" for, are SO concerned with doing it "right" and forget to just do what works. PMR is really THAT flexible. My two girls eat entirely different. Zailey eats far more chicken quarters than annie. Annie eats far more turkey necks and heart than zailey. We just go day by day, and eventually found the perfect balance for each of them.


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

that was well stated.....i think that's what happens, sometimes....we don't know our dogs well enough in the beginning....so we follow guidelines...and they are good guidelines...

but just as much as i can't handle grains, my husband can.

my corgi mix needs more bone than my pug....she can eat more without gaining weight. he gains weight drooling at her food, so he is fed less....

this all took 9 months of guidelines and then tailoring the diet to their individual needs.

it's a very common saying...know thy dog....because it could be a gulper and that changes things....or hates organs no matter what enticement or a whole number of things, diet related.....


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## SerenityFL (Sep 28, 2010)

So far, no bad experiences. Unless you count how insane I get at the grocery store or the non stop pestering I give hunters and those who know where the slaughter houses are....

The only thing that is still difficult for me, on raw, is accepting that the amount, (guideline), to give really IS enough for them. I am doing well with the boy hoodlum but the girl hoodlum, I think I give her a bit too much and am having to fight with myself to cut back. She's lookin' a leeeetle on the portly side...not a lot, but a little. 

I've only been feeding raw since September but all I've seen are benefits. In fact, I bathed them tonight and I can't stop staring at them because I'm fascinated by their extremely shiny fur. I mean, it's shiny. It looks absolutely stunning.

I don't know if my answer really counts since it's only been a couple of months but the naysayers who work with me are starting to get the picture: The dogs haven't choked to death on bones, they haven't died from worms or bacteria, they haven't gotten sick, they are not lethargic, they haven't gotten more aggressive-are not seeking out blood from every thing and every body, (seriously? People think this?), their stools are not runny, their teeth are pearly white and intact...they look better now than they did when they were 4 months old-it's been working very well.


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## SpooOwner (Oct 1, 2010)

Thanks to everyone for their responses.

Just to clarify, the reason why I asked this question was simply to acquire more data - whether good or bad - about people's experiences with raw feeding.

I am not anti-raw. On the contrary, I very much support it. So does my entire dog-owning community. In fact, I know no one - not even my Vet - who is anti-raw.

Because everyone I know is pro-raw, I am confused by other raw feeders who become defensive and preemptively shut down conversations about raw.

I also come from a science background, which means I like data. To me, data are just facts - they are not good or bad, but simply information. When people respond to my questions, they usually offer a mix of facts and conclusions. Facts are valuable. Conclusions can be insightful but can also be mistaken.

So that is why I asked whether anyone had a bad raw feeding experience. I know what I like about feeding raw, I know what other people enjoy about raw. But I have never heard from people who tried raw and found that their dog suffered on it.

And guess what? ... I still haven't. Not a single person wrote with a bad experience with raw food. Now that's a valuable data point.

I also learned another valuable point. Many people wrote that they struggled - sometimes for months - to find the right balance of foods for their dogs. Although many proponents of raw talk about how easy it is, they seem to have forgotten all of the struggle that (not always, but sometimes) goes into finding out the right balance for each dog. Once the owner discovers the right formula, however, raw feeding becomes very easy ... and so natural.

Thanks again to everyone who responded.


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## DaneMama (Jun 27, 2008)

You probably have yet to find a dog that hasn't done well on raw because they are extremely few and far between. Raw works wonders for dogs and cats, there's no doubt about that. 

As far as long term results I would speak to a few different breeders who've been feeding raw for generations of dogs. They are no doubt a very valuable resource for raw feeding data!


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## hcdoxies (Sep 22, 2010)

Just a quick add....

I'm a mini dachshund breeder and I have been feeding PMR for 28 months. Granted, I have only one breed, but they have ALL thrived on it. I haven't had to make any adjustments to tailor individual dogs - they all have the same thing and do well.

I do have to keep an eye on Jersey and Penny's weights... both act like they're starving but can really pork up very fast. You just have to listen to your dogs


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## ruckusluvr (Oct 28, 2009)

i dont have any clue why....
but when i fed raw my dog lost lots of weight and we couldnt get it back on him. and we were doing everything by the book!


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

> I also learned another valuable point. Many people wrote that they struggled - sometimes for months - to find the right balance of foods for their dogs. Although many proponents of raw talk about how easy it is, they seem to have forgotten all of the struggle that (not always, but sometimes) goes into finding out the right balance for each dog.


i think, as danemama says, this is amongst the top ten reasons why people don't continue....

i also think many people are so afraid they are killing their dogs with that first crunch....anything that doesn't seem right or causes stress is enough of a reason to go back to the comfort zone....so many of us were raised with never giving dogs bones...it's hard to reconcile with a whole new way of thinking.....

for me, i had read how easy it was to switch my dog from kibble to home cooked to raw.

basically, it was throw your dog a chicken thigh or quarter or drumstick.....feed 2-3% of ideal body weight, and bing bang boom, you're done....

hard not to panic when there is squid ink shooting out of my dogs' butts....or horking up bone because he's a stupid eater who thinks his pug throat is as wide as his pug mouth and tries to swallow a drumstick whole....

hard not to panic when there is blood in the stool from the stupid eater....

unfortunately, not everyone finds places like this one...

i had found a yahoo group where its militance was almost as off putting as the mucous on my cabinets from stupid eater...

thank g'd that natalie (danemama) is going to add in a section to her website....not pushing you nat....

because there are more of us who have problems in the beginning than the ones who transition easy peasy....

i'm only looking back nine months.....but i remember every one of those days in the beginning....getting up at 3 a.m.....dog vomit in the bed...

such a lovely time LOL

it is now.....and now i more or less know what to expect....and a year from now, i'll know even more.....

and when i get a puppy, i'll be back with all the tedious questions....for puppy raw....

i wish we could reach all those who stopped for one reason or another.....or who never began because of their vet's reaction or their family and friends....


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## SpooOwner (Oct 1, 2010)

Wow - I'm grateful that I didn't have half of these problems when I transitioned my dog. She took to it right away - after I mentioned to a friend that I wanted to feed her raw, he showed up with 6-7 lbs of beef, half bone-in and half deboned. She was so excited at breakfast, and so proud, content, and sleepy after finishing each meal.

The only problem we had was when I bought "enhanced" chicken. Now I know to be careful of salt levels.

And full disclosure - I still feed kibble at night. Right now we're trying Orijen LBP with mixed results, though it's still early. Feeding some kibble saves on cost (I'm still sorting out suppliers), I still get the health benefits of raw, and I know there won't be a problem when I need to board her.


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## malluver1005 (Nov 15, 2009)

I never had any problems when I switched Aspen over to PMR. I expected cannon butt, but NO!!!!! 

ETA: And I didn't start him on chicken. I started him on his favorite, tilapia.


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## GypsyJazmine (Sep 23, 2010)

Occasionally Samson will still throw up chicken bones & bile the day after I feed chicken but that is the only problem I've had...Nothing that I'd stop feeding raw over by any means!:smile:


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## k9capture_16 (Aug 23, 2010)

I have never had any problem with raw..ever. Except when the dogs sneak a chunk on one of my carpets and it gets bloody. Ive had more problem with vaccines making my dogs ill and heard stories of dogs otherwise healthy dying after receiving one, have yet to hear of a negative story that made a dog ill or killed it, unless of course it was owner error. :wink:


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