# I'm so lost and don't know how to help my puppy! HELP!



## BrittaniW (Sep 1, 2013)

Hi all,

I have a 15 week old pup (dachshund mix, maybe beagle and some other things) and I think he's really suffering health-wide. His mom was rescued from a hoarder's property wherein over 40 dogs lived. Link, my pup, was born at the rescue here in Madison. We got him at 11 weeks... He would nurse from his mom and another dog who just gave birth to a littler as well. They gave him cheapie purina puppy chow. I now feed him Natural Balance (potato and duck formula) as well as grain free treats. About a week ago he was diagnosed with localized demodectic mange which has since then turned into generalized. (At that same appointment he was given his last distemper and first rabies shot). The vet gave me ivermectin, which I give properly and as prescribed. Then a couple days later he developed an eye infection.... He was then prescribed with an antibiotic..... And now because Links hair keeps coming off, the vet is now suggesting an amitraz dip or something.... I keep asking her if there is anything else we can do instead.

All in all, I'm starting to feel like my vet is going to nickel and dime me until my wallet is empty... I also feel like this has to do more with Link's immune system than anything and I think his diet is where I should start. I'm just really looking for advice from someone who knows about all this and who isn't going to profit off of me by the advice they give.... Any suggestions would be very helpful.


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## Deaf Dogs (Apr 10, 2012)

Basically your vet is soooooo wrong! She should not have vaccinated him. Demodex can flair due to a lowered immune system, by vaccinating him she taxed hia immune system even further and caused the mange to get worse. I've cured alot of puppies with demodex using good food, primrose oil, salmon oil, kelp and good food. No drugs necessary. I also used diaper cream or Aveeno lotion of they were really itchy.


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## BrittaniW (Sep 1, 2013)

Okay... Thanks! From what I've been researching, I was thinking that all along!!! What food should I get him?? And the oils? Where do I get these from? Do I mix it in his food? And the kelp? At this point ill buy whatever it takes because I think I'll save money in the long run...


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## Deaf Dogs (Apr 10, 2012)

I buy the oils at a specialty pet store. I dony know where you are, but I use Pet Tek salmon oil and Carnivora Primrose oil. I use Mountain Dog Food kelp. But Solid Gold Seameal mix is a better option food grade diatomacious earth might be a good option too. I feed Orijen, Acana and Fromm foods. Natural Balance isn't bad but it has alot of carbs. Might be a good idea to look into raw or canned foods, as they are healthier than kibble. I feed a variety of kibble, canned, dehydrated and raw foods, myself.


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## Deaf Dogs (Apr 10, 2012)

And yes, the oils and kelp mix into his food.


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## FBarnes (Feb 17, 2013)

I agree that the vaccinations plus dosing him with insecticide pretty much sent him tipping over into an area where his immune system is in terrible shape. Vets should never give those things to a dog struggling with health issues like mange. There are mange mites in healthy dogs but when it becomes a problem, something is wrong already.

I too would go to raw or home cooked. I give my dog this for immune support on the advice of a wonderful holistic healer- it's an algae supplement.
BioPreparation F2 F3 Green Algae For Dogs and Cats

I would not give any more ivermectin. If you are afraid to go without, give it every 60 days. A heartworm larvae has a 60 day or longer cycle. Since the ivermectin isn't a preventive, but kills the larvae present in the blood, it is overkill to give it every 30 days. My own vet admitted dogs don't need it every 30 days although he advised 45. Don't dose him with anything chemical. Before I quit giving my dogs heartworm meds, I was dosing every 60-75 days and no one got heartworm.


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## TTs Towel (Jul 10, 2012)

FBarnes said:


> I would not give any more ivermectin. If you are afraid to go without, give it every 60 days. A heartworm larvae has a 60 day or longer cycle. Since the ivermectin isn't a preventive, but kills the larvae present in the blood, it is overkill to give it every 30 days. My own vet admitted dogs don't need it every 30 days although he advised 45. Don't dose him with anything chemical. Before I quit giving my dogs heartworm meds, I was dosing every 60-75 days and no one got heartworm.


Wow. just wow. Way to give out dangerous information. D. immitis (heartworms) are considered L3 infective larvae when they enter the dog. They transform to L4 larvae around 15 days and then to L5 larvae between 45-60 days. Hearworm prevention is NOT effective against L5 larvae! Not to mention that VERY recent studies show that resistance to hearworm prevention now exists!


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## 1605 (May 27, 2009)

BrittaniW said:


> Hi all,
> 
> I have a 15 week old pup (dachshund mix, maybe beagle and some other things) and I think he's really suffering health-wide. His mom was rescued from a hoarder's property wherein over 40 dogs lived. Link, my pup, was born at the rescue here in Madison. We got him at 11 weeks... He would nurse from his mom and another dog who just gave birth to a littler as well. They gave him cheapie purina puppy chow. I now feed him Natural Balance (potato and duck formula) as well as grain free treats. About a week ago he was diagnosed with localized demodectic mange which has since then turned into generalized. (At that same appointment he was given his last distemper and first rabies shot). The vet gave me ivermectin, which I give properly and as prescribed. Then a couple days later he developed an eye infection.... He was then prescribed with an antibiotic..... And now because Links hair keeps coming off, the vet is now suggesting an amitraz dip or something.... I keep asking her if there is anything else we can do instead.
> 
> All in all, I'm starting to feel like my vet is going to nickel and dime me until my wallet is empty... I also feel like this has to do more with Link's immune system than anything and I think his diet is where I should start. I'm just really looking for advice from someone who knows about all this and who isn't going to profit off of me by the advice they give.... Any suggestions would be very helpful.


To be honest, I can't tell from your narrative whether the puppy was brought in to the vet because he had mange & received vaccinations during that visit, or wound up with mange after the vaccination. However, it's pretty much moot at this point. 

While mange is not uncommon in puppies, it usually requires a bit more treatment than simply letting it run its course, esp if the mange has gone beyond just a small localized area. And as others have indicated, the mites are a fact of life on ALL dogs. It's just that most mature dogs don't react to them.

Unfortunately, heartworm prevention is not really a luxury these days. Down here in FL we have to keep up meds year round. But in some colder climes, you can stop giving the dog meds during the Winter. (My sister, who lives in Ontario, only has to give her sheltie stuff during the Summer.) 

Ivermectin also can be used to kill the mites off that cause mange. However, the dosage is different than monthly heartworm prevention, and treatment extends over a month, perhaps more. Since the dog is losing more hair & the mange has "spread", the vet suggested the dip. This would have a more immediate effect in killing the mites than the slow/low dose ivermectin protocol. However, some dogs can become ill from this course of treatment as well. 

Have a frank talk with your vet about your puppy's health and don't stop asking questions until you get unjargonized answers that help you decide on what course of treatment to take.
 
The only other thing I can suggest is some probiotics to help your dog's system while he is on antibiotics, as often these meds produce diarrhea because they kill off both the "good" and the "bad" bacteria in the body. Anything over 2 billion active cultures should be good. You can get some at your local pharmacy: just break open the capsules & sprinkle the contents on your dog's food & mix it in. Alternately, you can use yogurt, but I'm never sure of how many active cultures are in them, so I stick to the capsules.

Bonne chance,


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## Dr Dolittle (Aug 2, 2013)

SubMariner said:


> To be honest, I can't tell from your narrative whether the puppy was brought in to the vet because he had mange & received vaccinations during that visit, or wound up with mange after the vaccination. However, it's pretty much moot at this point.
> 
> While mange is not uncommon in puppies, it usually requires a bit more treatment than simply letting it run its course, esp if the mange has gone beyond just a small localized area. And as others have indicated, the mites are a fact of life on ALL dogs. It's just that most mature dogs don't react to them.
> 
> ...


Submariner just stole my thunder! As I was reading this thread I was thinking this guy needs a good probiotic for all the reasons Submariner mentioned. I do not believe in probiotics in the food but I would use a supplement. I think it will help a lot. I would also suggest, pick a food and stick with it for awhile. Let the gut get good and healthy.


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## FBarnes (Feb 17, 2013)

TTs Towel said:


> Wow. just wow. Way to give out dangerous information. D. immitis (heartworms) are considered L3 infective larvae when they enter the dog. They transform to L4 larvae around 15 days and then to L5 larvae between 45-60 days. Hearworm prevention is NOT effective against L5 larvae! Not to mention that VERY recent studies show that resistance to hearworm prevention now exists!


I SAID my vet advised every 45 days. I've also read several articles that make me suspicious of that 45 day thing. The range is large - 45-60 days. What about 44 days? 65? Don't they know exactly how long it takes? There are variables in there. i live in a hot, mosquito infected area of Texas and I gave it every 60 days or longer for over a year. And surprise surprise, my dogs are still testing negative. 

I don't give heartworm medication at all any more. I just read the article that says heartworms are becoming resistant. What ever will we do? Go straight to arsenic as a preventative? 

We are told to give it every 30 days for one reason - it makes more money for someone. They give you the cute little hearts so you don't forget.


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## Roger Biduk (Feb 2, 2013)

*Give Dr. Carrie Donahue a call... quickly...*



BrittaniW said:


> Hi all,
> 
> I have a 15 week old pup (dachshund mix, maybe beagle and some other things) and I think he's really suffering health-wide. His mom was rescued from a hoarder's property wherein over 40 dogs lived. Link, my pup, was born at the rescue here in Madison. We got him at 11 weeks... He would nurse from his mom and another dog who just gave birth to a littler as well. They gave him cheapie purina puppy chow. I now feed him Natural Balance (potato and duck formula) as well as grain free treats. About a week ago he was diagnosed with localized demodectic mange which has since then turned into generalized. (At that same appointment he was given his last distemper and first rabies shot). The vet gave me ivermectin, which I give properly and as prescribed. Then a couple days later he developed an eye infection.... He was then prescribed with an antibiotic..... And now because Links hair keeps coming off, the vet is now suggesting an amitraz dip or something.... I keep asking her if there is anything else we can do instead.
> 
> All in all, I'm starting to feel like my vet is going to nickel and dime me until my wallet is empty... I also feel like this has to do more with Link's immune system than anything and I think his diet is where I should start. I'm just really looking for advice from someone who knows about all this and who isn't going to profit off of me by the advice they give.... Any suggestions would be very helpful.


Hello BrittaniiW.

The first thing to do is dump the vet... very typical of the 80% of vets I know of that I wouldn’t let near my pets.

You have to visit a vet that practices both allopathic and holistic veterinary.

There’s 15 very good vets I know of in Wisconsin and there’s a vet and clinic in Madison where you’re located that is excellent:	

Dr. Carrie Donahue, DVM
Full Circle Holistic Veterinary Care
2138 Atwood Ave.
Madison, WI 
Tel.: 608-620-4729
Website

Give here a call right away... you and your puppy will immediately see a huge difference in vets and results.
Roger Biduk


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## 1605 (May 27, 2009)

FBarnes said:


> I SAID my vet advised every 45 days. I've also read several articles that make me suspicious of that 45 day thing. The range is large - 45-60 days. What about 44 days? 65? Don't they know exactly how long it takes? There are variables in there. i live in a hot, mosquito infected area of Texas and I gave it every 60 days or longer for over a year. And surprise surprise, my dogs are still testing negative.
> 
> I don't give heartworm medication at all any more. I just read the article that says heartworms are becoming resistant. What ever will we do? Go straight to arsenic as a preventative?
> 
> We are told to give it every 30 days for one reason - it makes more money for someone. They give you the cute little hearts so you don't forget.


And I live in FL and we have many GSPs that wind up in Rescue that are heartworm positive because they have not received adequate medication to prevent infestation. 

Several reliable sources (breeders) have advised me that they have switched to a 45 day schedule, which I think is prudent. Not giving dogs anything at all because you "read the article that says heartworms are becoming resistant" is simply illogical.


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## Herzo (Feb 5, 2011)

And just to clear this part up. It says.....about a week ago he was diagnosed with da da da (At that same appointment he was given his last distemper and his first rabies shot) That vet needs kicked in the you know where.

I hope your pup is doing better.


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## Roger Biduk (Feb 2, 2013)

*"Heartworm is spread by mosquitoes, heartworm medication is sold by fear"*



SubMariner said:


> And I live in FL and we have many GSPs that wind up in Rescue that are heartworm positive because they have not received adequate medication to prevent infestation.
> 
> Several reliable sources (breeders) have advised me that they have switched to a 45 day schedule, which I think is prudent. Not giving dogs anything at all because you "read the article that says heartworms are becoming resistant" is simply illogical.


I prepare diets for clients of vets who live in Texas, Florida, Mississippi, Georgia, etc., some almost in the swamps and they've never tested positive for heartworm.

Again, the best thing to do is see or call a GOOD vet in your area that practices both allopathic and holistic veterinary, they'll tell you what to do... talking to breeders or vets that are simply salespeople of Big Pharma is not the thing to do, especially exposing dogs to carcinogens in toxic, chemical pesticides that are flea/heartworm "meds"... let me know if anyone would like a few names.

The best course of action must be taken for pet owners if living in an area where attention to heartworm is advised, doing nothing is not an option.

I've written several articles on flea/heartworm and there's loads of info out there from great vets who aren't shills of Big Pharma.
There's also several groups on Facebook on the danger of brands like Frontline, Heartgard, Sentinel, etc.

Here's a few good articles:
Heartworm drugs for pets; Big Pharma's cash cow
Drug-Free Heartworm Prevention
Heartworm Dogs: Treatment Without Drugs
Heartworm Resistance Concerns Grow 
Why Haven’t Pet Owners Been Told These Facts about Heartworm? 

Use Ivermectin With Extreme Caution
Heartworm Drug Shortage Prompts Use of Cheaper, Safer Therapy 
One More Victim is One Too Many
Roger Biduk


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## TTs Towel (Jul 10, 2012)

Roger Biduk said:


> I've written several articles on flea/heartworm


When someone figures out what qualifies this guy to write these articles let me know by PM please. I'm sure that Mr. Biduk will be more than happy to send all of you a check in the mail for the immiticide treatment your dog will require after it gets heartworms while on his recommended prevention plan. Ironic that his recommendations will ultimately result in more dogs needing to visit the vet b/c their pulmonary artery is filled with heartworms.


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## britt0325 (Jul 11, 2013)

I'm not sure why the topic has strayed to the topic of heartworm prevention...

As far as the issues you're dealing with, there's plenty of supplements you can add to your puppies diet to help with the immune system. 

First of all, as it's been mentioned, probiotics are a must. The gut is extremely important as far as the immune system is concerned. On top of a probiotic supplement, you can give fermented veggies, kefir, and yogurt which are extremely beneficial as far as having probiotics and just a ton of other healthy stuff that I won't get into. Be sure to look it up.  

Next, I just recently pinned this for myself:

Dr. Oz's 12 Natural Immunity Boosters | The Dr. Oz Show

Go through it, look stuff up to research it for yourself, pick out a couple things, or all of them, to add to your dogs diet. Variety is fun, so something different every day. Just don't go crazy and upset the puppies stomach. Everything in moderation.

I don't really mess around with essential oils and I'm not really knowledgeable about them but make sure you look everything up to check if it's toxic. I've had so many people recommend that I use neen oil on my dog only to find out dogs have had toxic reactions to it. So I'm not really a fan of that type of stuff but if you've looked up the recommended oils and it seems safe then I don't really see any reason to worry about it. Just be careful. I think you should probably go to a holistic vet because most oils need to be "watered" down but maybe that's not the case for them all.

Be really careful with dosage too. Just because something's natural doesn't mean it can't do harm if given to much. 

Garlic would be a great example of that. I would def give garlic because it's really good for immune support but you can't be giving too much every single day or there will be problems.

Oh, the link I has avocado, don't give that, forgot that was on there sorry.


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## Deaf Dogs (Apr 10, 2012)

The primrose oil I use are made for dogs by a company that makes raw food. The other ones are also for pets. I don't mess around with people stuff unless I know without a doubt it's safe.


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## britt0325 (Jul 11, 2013)

What company? I would love to check it out.


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## Roger Biduk (Feb 2, 2013)

*What recommendations...?*



TTs Towel said:


> When someone figures out what qualifies this guy to write these articles let me know by PM please. I'm sure that Mr. Biduk will be more than happy to send all of you a check in the mail for the immiticide treatment your dog will require after it gets heartworms while on his recommended prevention plan. Ironic that his recommendations will ultimately result in more dogs needing to visit the vet b/c their pulmonary artery is filled with heartworms.


"his recommendations" and "his recommended prevention plan"... my ONLY recommendations have always, always been and will continue to be is for pet owners to always visit or do a phone consult with a veterinarian who practices allopathic veterinary and who is also qualified to practice holistic veterinary for anything relating to a cat/dog...
Best regards,
R.

"Heartworm dogs don’t scare me. I’ve cured probably a dozen over the years, never needing the toxic drugs so commonly used by conventional vets." Dr. Will Falconer, DVM

"Heartworm prevention kills dogs?
I never knew that when they first came out with the heartworm drugs, back in the 80’s. I learned it when I left conventional practice and started to dig into what can hurt your dog, make her ill, and even kill her.
And boy, did I learn a lot when I dug into holistic vet practice!
What I’d like you to know, from my insider’s perspective, is how to keep your dog safe from heartworm without risking something far worse than a parasite." Dr. Will Falconer, DVM.

The great Dr. Will Falconer’s ebook “Vital Animals Don’t Get Heartworm” can be ordered here http://bit.ly/1329s8S.
"This is a real life, practical, step by step explanation of how to keep your dog both free from the dangerous drugs used to prevent heartworm, and free from the parasite itself. Dr Will Falconer walks you through the way heartworm spreads, the significant risk of the heartworm drugs causing immune breakdown, and how to successfully beat the parasite without drugs. Even when you live where it lives, like Texas. There are hundreds of Dr Falconer's patients from over 20+ years of practice that have shown, through their use of this program, that it truly works."

Dr. Martin Goldstein, in his book, "The Nature Of Animal Healing" page 221:
"Granted, heartworm is a serious condition... 
A few caveats are in order, however. Only a small percentage of dogs who get heartworm die of it, especially if they're routinely tested twice yearly for early detection. Even in untreated dogs, after a period of uncomfortable symptoms, the adult worms die... The chances of a microfilaria infected mosquito biting your dog the first time are slim. Of it happening to the same dog twice? Very slim...Early in my career, I saw and treated hundreds of cases of heartworm disease, most with routine medication, yet witnessed only three deaths (the last was in 1979). By comparison, we're seeing, cancer kill dogs on a daily basis. To my mind, the likelihood that toxicity from heartworm pills [spot-ons, injections] is contributing to the tremendous amount of immune suppression now occurring, especially in cases of liver disease and cancer, is far greater and more immediate than the threat of the disease they're meant to prevent...
As a precaution, I recommend that all dogs be tested twice a year for heartworm. For clients who insist on a more active form of prevention, I suggest doses of black walnut given two to three times a week, as I've actually reversed clinical heartworm with it..."

Heartworm drugs for pets; Big Pharma's cash cow
Drug-Free Heartworm Prevention
Heartworm Dogs: Treatment Without Drugs
The Truth About Heartworm - Heartworms are Spread by Mosquitoes. Heartworm Medications are Spread by Fear
Heartworm Medication Part 1: Truths, Omissions and Profits
Heartworm Medication Part 2: Options to Fear-Based Recommendations
Heartworm Resistance Concerns Grow 
Why Haven’t Pet Owners Been Told These Facts about Heartworm? 

Use Ivermectin With Extreme Caution
Heartworm Drug Shortage Prompts Use of Cheaper, Safer Therapy 
One More Victim is One Too Many
Alternative Prevention and Treatments for Heartworm
Roger Biduk


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## Deaf Dogs (Apr 10, 2012)

britt0325 said:


> What company? I would love to check it out.


Here's the Salmon Oil 

And here's the website for Carnivora that does the raw food I gave you the link to their supplements page that has the primrose oil. They also have alot of other supplements


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## 1605 (May 27, 2009)

Roger Biduk said:


> "his recommendations" and "his recommended prevention plan"... my ONLY recommendations have always, always been and will continue to be is for pet owners to always visit or do a phone consult with a veterinarian who practices allopathic veterinary and who is also qualified to practice holistic veterinary for anything relating to a cat/dog...
> Best regards,
> R.
> 
> ...


I find it interesting that when I randomly clicked on the link "Heartworm Drug Shortage Prompts Use of Cheaper Safer Therapy it actually AFFIRMED the use of ivermectin; just in a different dosage. This is something that I definitely can ascribe to, whether it be customizing the dosage by purchasing your own ivermectin (& pyrantel), or lengthening the time between administering pre-packaged pills from 30 to 45 days. 

As for some of the other sources, they seem to be somewhat self serving -- "buy my book/subscribe to my newsletter/come to my practice & I will tell you how to keep your dog/cat/aardvark healthy". 

I fully support finding alternative ways of keeping my dogs healthy & happy. But I am not going to simply abandon proven treatments or methodology simply because someone labels something "poison". Almost anything can be labelled "poison" --- I am deathly allergic to a certain medication that many people routinely use to clear up infections... something that is actually produced from "natural sources". So is it actually "poison"?

As with human medicine, people need to do some research into the vets they choose to treat their pets. A vet who just pushes the brand of food or pills they sell is not with whom I would care to build a relationship. And I think most people on here are like that.

Pax,


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## Roger Biduk (Feb 2, 2013)

SubMariner said:


> I find it interesting that when I randomly clicked on the link "Heartworm Drug Shortage Prompts Use of Cheaper Safer Therapy it actually AFFIRMED the use of ivermectin; just in a different dosage. This is something that I definitely can ascribe to, whether it be customizing the dosage by purchasing your own ivermectin (& pyrantel), or lengthening the time between administering pre-packaged pills from 30 to 45 days.
> 
> As for some of the other sources, they seem to be somewhat self serving -- "buy my book/subscribe to my newsletter/come to my practice & I will tell you how to keep your dog/cat/aardvark healthy".
> 
> ...


Hello Submariner,

Agreed, very well put... all of the vets that I refer people to that practice both allopathic and holistic veterinary look at everything, including chemical treatments as you mentioned but possibly lengthening the time to 45 or 60 days or making any adjustments that would benefit the cat/dog and lessen the chance of any potential problems.
Roger Biduk


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