# Why Not Raw?



## VeatchsMama (Oct 24, 2011)

Okay so I'm new to this field after obsessing over what to feed my fuzzbutt. I've read the kibble threads and I've read the raw. Both have their pros and cons and I just can't decide. So why do you feed kibble over raw? PS I'm Also asking the vice versa of the raw feeders. FOR INFORMATION AND TO APPREICATE PEOPLES OPINIONS ONLY - NO ARGUMENTS That way i feel 100% confident in my decision when the time comes Thanks!


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## Boxerdogz (Feb 15, 2011)

Raw is something I had been looking into for awhile for my 2 boxers and mini poodle. I decided not to for a number of reasons- my dogs are super healthy and doing great on kibble, there is no empirical evidence that raw is any better/healthier, the anecdotal evidence for dogs' various health issues clearing up (allergies, coat probelms etc) on raw I believe are due not to the raw itself but from eliminating whatever ingredients the dog was intolerant to on kibble, I also don't want my dog to risk illness, broken or chipped teeth, or obstructions due to raw feeding. I don't eat raw meat so why should my dog? No animal (even humans!) evolved to eat cooked meat. And, to me it's gross- sorry but I don't want my dogs getting their face/paws all over bloody raw meat then running around the house and licking my face. Ew! :hand: I also like the convenience of kibble. I do give my dogs lots of yummy snacks from meals I cook for myself (meat, fruits, veggies, etc!) to give them extra variety and to spoil them


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## CorgiPaws (Mar 31, 2009)

Just a friendly reminder, that this is in the kibble section, and all members are entitled to their opinions, so please, no raw vs. kibble arguments here. Keep this friendly and productive.


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## kevin bradley (Aug 9, 2009)

I just haven't found enough conclusive evidence to indicate that RAW or even cooked real meat feeding is *that *much superior to dry kibble feeding. Note-I am by no means saying that it isn't superior--I just haven't seen stories of Dogs living to 30 years old on Raw diets. If they are out there, I'd be very open to seeing them. Dogs are living longer than ever, with the majority being fed dry kibble--in fact, with the majority being fed BAD dry kibble(anyone know the percentage of Purina/Pedigree sales vs. Orijen?--I would guess its 100 bags to 1). Also, I would be concerned that I am leaving something out of their diets and not providing a completely balanced diet. Shiny coats?--my Dogs have nice coats on Orijen/Acana/HK. Loving their Food?--my guys go crazy at Kibble time. Energy?--my 9 year old Harry will run for hours playing ball and about anything else you want to do. About the only for-certain aspect that I'll concede is how clean Raw Dogs teeth are... no debate there--kibble does seem to create tartar buildup. 

Overall, most of the evidence I've found on raw feeding is pretty anecdotal. And if I'm going to be open to anecdotal evidence, I have to admit.... my Dog in high school was fed Pedigree and lived to about 20 years old... I would hate for someone to use that as any type of evidence. 

All that being said, the reason I DON'T is because of the above, and overall convenience. If I were going to go thru the trouble of RAW(and I do believe it is more work, I cannot believe it isn't at least a bit more work), just for me, it would have to be pretty conclusively better in my mind.

Just my opinions, I want to make sure I'm clear on that. I'm the first to admit that most of what any RAW feeder believes certainly sounds logical.


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## VeatchsMama (Oct 24, 2011)

PuppyPaws said:


> Just a friendly reminder, that this is in the kibble section, and all members are entitled to their opinions, so please, no raw vs. kibble arguments here. Keep this friendly and productive.


I'm sorry if it sounded like I was looking for an argument. Of course everyone has their opinion and that's exactly what I was looking for! All of this information is simply overwhelming so I was looking for some opinions from those who choose exclusively to feed kibble over raw and vice versa. Just to broaden my views and to gather further information so I can ultimately make the best decision that fits my dogs needs and coincide with my budget and schedule. Happy healthy dogs... That what were here for right?


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## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

I think she meant she didn't want a bunch of raw feeders coming in here and turning this thread into a free for all. It's happened once or twice


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## Javadoo (May 23, 2011)

I am perfectly happy with the outstanding results I have gotten from feeding my 2 labs premium, grain free kibble.
I'm not sure how much better they could look or feel.
They are lean, muscular and fit, gorgeous coats, clean ears, clear eyes, healthy skin..I don't think I could ask for better than that.


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## CorgiPaws (Mar 31, 2009)

VeatchsMama said:


> I'm sorry if it sounded like I was looking for an argument. Of course everyone has their opinion and that's exactly what I was looking for! All of this information is simply overwhelming so I was looking for some opinions from those who choose exclusively to feed kibble over raw and vice versa. Just to broaden my views and to gather further information so I can ultimately make the best decision that fits my dogs needs and coincide with my budget and schedule. Happy healthy dogs... That what were here for right?


Oh no, it didn't at all! We've just seen these genuine questions turn into arguments too much recently, and I'd hate for your information-gathering to be hindered by that. With this thread in BOTH forums, everyone can give their opinions and thoughts without argument. 
A lot of people are misinformed on raw and use those reasons not to feed it. A lot of times passionate raw feeders can jump in with good intentions of clearing up misconceptions, but it's just too strong, and it ends up coming across offensive and arrogant. People have their reasons for feeding what they feed. Some people aren't comfortable with it, some people can't afford it, and some people really just don't know enough about it or have heard false things. Whatever the reason is, I just don't want an argument!


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## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

i actually like the question separated into two places. Keeps everyone in their own corner


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## kevin bradley (Aug 9, 2009)

PuppyPaws said:


> Oh no, it didn't at all! We've just seen these genuine questions turn into arguments too much recently, and I'd hate for your information-gathering to be hindered by that. With this thread in BOTH forums, everyone can give their opinions and thoughts without argument.
> A lot of people are misinformed on raw and use those reasons not to feed it. A lot of times passionate raw feeders can jump in with good intentions of clearing up misconceptions, but it's just too strong, and it ends up coming across offensive and arrogant. People have their reasons for feeding what they feed. Some people aren't comfortable with it, some people can't afford it, and some people really just don't know enough about it or have heard false things. Whatever the reason is, I just don't want an argument!


Linsey,

Here's one that I JUST read at my local library. I'm pretty certain it was a magazine put out by the AKC. Don't quote me but I believe it was the AKC gazette magazine maybe. 

They had an article on Raw feeding and how they are seeing many Dogs with dietary issues-- missing certain nutrients in their diets, lacking a balanced Diet. Overall, the article as at least somewhat negative towards raw...not an overall slam, but at least hinted of "you better be careful feeding raw." They also pointed to the fact that many raw feeders will point to clean teeth and a shiny coat.... which ARE results of a high protein/high fat diet but hardly the only testament to a truly balanced, healthy diet. 

I have to note again---I am NOT saying the above to insult raw feeders. But if we are ever going to influence what is right, we have to have candid/thoughtful discussions without worrying about hurting each others feelings.


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## CorgiPaws (Mar 31, 2009)

kevin bradley said:


> Linsey,
> 
> Here's one that I JUST read at my local library. I'm pretty certain it was a magazine put out by the AKC. Don't quote me but I believe it was the AKC gazette magazine maybe.
> 
> ...


I don't want to turn this into a raw vs. kibble debate, so I will simply state that while "balancing" a raw diet is not terribly hard (I mean come on, you don't hire a professional to formulate your meals, do you?" There ARE people who hear about raw, and do little research, and give their dog something like ground beef every meal. In this case, YES, it will cause issues. I think this happens a lot more often than we realize. 
I also think that there is a "best" way to feed raw, and in my OPINION that's PMR. I believe that PMR feeders are greatly outnumbered by BARF feeders. If you wish to continue the conversation further , PM me and I will move these posts to a new, separate thread. Otherwise, back to topic we shall go!


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## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

If I had been asked this question two years ago, I would have said this:

"There is no reason to switch. My dogs are in good shape, and what i am feeding them works perfectly fine for me. Why ask for trouble by changing what is working?"

I think alot of people change to raw (or BARF, or homecooked or even another brand of dry food) only when their dogs are having problems.


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## CorgiPaws (Mar 31, 2009)

This thread is about why you DON'T feed raw, not for raw feeders to list the reasons they do. Any "I feed raw because..." posts will be moved to the "Why not kibble?" thread, where they fit more appropriately.


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## Boxerdogz (Feb 15, 2011)

kevin bradley said:


> Linsey,
> 
> Here's one that I JUST read at my local library. I'm pretty certain it was a magazine put out by the AKC. Don't quote me but I believe it was the AKC gazette magazine maybe.
> 
> ...


This is also a good point... I worry about missing nutrients. While it's true that most people don't need a nutritionist to formulate our meals, we also have a food system that is heavily fortified with vitamins and minerals (think breads, breakfast cereals, pasta, milk, granola, iodized salt, etc, even soda and cookies!) making it pretty hard for a human to become nutrient deficient :tongue:


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## whiteleo (Sep 7, 2008)

kevin bradley said:


> Linsey,
> 
> Here's one that I JUST read at my local library. I'm pretty certain it was a magazine put out by the AKC. Don't quote me but I believe it was the AKC gazette magazine maybe.
> 
> ...


I get that magazine! All I'm gonna say is who do you think sponsors all those shows? It is certainly not a raw co. And AKC would hate to see their sponsors dry up now wouldn't they!


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## GoingPostal (Sep 5, 2011)

Personally the main reason I don't feed raw to the dogs is I can't afford it right now, kibble is much cheaper for us, as opposed to sourcing that much meat locally which is very overpriced, I could afford chicken and turkey but I think variety is very important. Also my boyfriend isn't 100% on board to the idea yet. I have no problem with raw at all, my cat and ferrets eat raw but I have to pay to overnight whole prey, organs and any weird meats (rabbit, duck, etc), but for small animals like that it evens out pretty well to what I was paying for canned or high quality kibble shipped in anyways. If I can figure out a way to do raw on the budget I have I would be. I think the big pluses to kibble are just price and ease of use, although I personally don't understand people who "don't have time" to make their animals a meal.


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## kevin bradley (Aug 9, 2009)

PuppyPaws said:


> I don't want to turn this into a raw vs. kibble debate, so I will simply state that while "balancing" a raw diet is not terribly hard (I mean come on, you don't hire a professional to formulate your meals, do you?" There ARE people who hear about raw, and do little research, and give their dog something like ground beef every meal. In this case, YES, it will cause issues. I think this happens a lot more often than we realize.
> I also think that there is a "best" way to feed raw, and in my OPINION that's PMR. I believe that PMR feeders are greatly outnumbered by BARF feeders. If you wish to continue the conversation further , PM me and I will move these posts to a new, separate thread. Otherwise, back to topic we shall go!


thanks Linsey. I don't want to cause any hard feelings either, on either side of the issue. 

The conversation is just inherently difficult. You almost have to list reasons AGAINST something to provide clarity as to why you DO something with something like Raw/Kibble. I enjoy the topic, but I also realize too that it can get ugly.


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## Jacksons Mom (Jun 13, 2010)

The reasons I don't feed raw - 

I am lazy. I literally hardly cook for myself or prepare my own meals. I am a college student with a limited income and there is no way my dog is going to have his meals prepared daily, taking up all the freezer space, when I am eating Ramen Noodles and Easy Mac.

I fed some of the pre-made raw for a little while. Jackson did not really like it all that much... he would often stick his nose up at it, and it would get wasted. That stuff was not cheap, either. The only difference I noticed was a little less poop while eating it... otherwise, his coat was still just as shiny, his breath was still fine, his eye boogers were the same, another-words: I did not notice any significant difference. 

Jackson has eaten 'high quality' kibbles his whole life along with some canned food. He's still young at 3 but he has never had any major health issues (besides one incident of pancreatitis due to consumption of fatty human foods), no infections (besides kennel cough), never really had much throwing up/diarrhea in his life (maybe two instances), his teeth are in pretty good shape (for me hardly ever brushing them - he's only got a bit of tarter on the canines), always has great energy, the list goes on and on. Basically all the benefits I see to raw feeders, my dog is doing just as well. And I know well means different things to different people. And I have seen dogs who are doing really crappy (but owners think they are doing well) on crappy foods like Kibbles n Bits and Beneful.

Oh and cost. It IS cheaper for me to feed kibble. My 16lb dog uses about a 5lb bag of kibble every month that costs me no more than $14. When I did the math for feeding him raw, it was gonna be a heck of a lot more. The pre-made raw was WAY more.

So I suppose cost, convenience, laziness, and doing well on kibble are my main reasons.


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## Unosmom (May 3, 2009)

I feed both raw and kibble (although doing a full raw trial right now to see how well my dog does on it). 2 things that I major obstacles would be cost and convenience by far. I know some people can spend $200 a month on raw, but its just not an option right now for me. Kibble costs around $40-50 a month for me to feed a 60 lb dog. Its easy to just pour it into bowl and not worry about prepping, balancing, wiping counters, dogs getting into scuffs over meals. Kibble is also easy for traveling. I hike a lot and I cant bring raw meat with me, or if I'm on the road and having to worry about meat thawing out and going bad while in the cooler, its just not worth it. 

Raw on the other hand has couple major benefits including cleaner teeth (no need for brushing, I love checking my dogs teeth every day now) and small poos. I havent noticed much difference in energy level or coat health between the 2 (although Unos coat is a bit dry now due to colder air)


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## kevin bradley (Aug 9, 2009)

magicre said:


> i think, kevin, when we get right down to it, people feed what they think is good for their dogs...
> 
> if it's not broken, no reason to fix it.
> 
> ...


thanks Re. Not bad. Just buckling down for another long, depressing Michigan Winter  yeah, I stay here on my own accord 

Good points of view on this discussion. Glad to see its staying peaceful too


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## Tobi (Mar 18, 2011)

I'd agree with absolute convenience with kibble, it's a lot of work sometimes tracking down the proper routes for cheaper meats, and offal. Kibble whether it be Eukanuba, or Orijen it's as easy as buying a sack, and measuring it out daily. To me that's a lot more convenient than tracking down meats, and often times driving 45 minutes to a source for it... and then on top of it, if you have many dogs, or animals that are eating meats you will likely need a freezer just for their food as well, prep times for raw can be daunting sometimes Natalie, and Linsey are great examples as they get orders of 500+ lbs to sort, and repackage which i'm sure can take days for it to thaw, and repack.

So much of it to me comes down to time spent, and whether or not it is something you want to do.

The downside to feeding kibble is that tooth brushing is mandatory.


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## Jack Monzon (Jul 25, 2010)

Javadoo said:


> I am perfectly happy with the outstanding results I have gotten from feeding my 2 labs premium, grain free kibble.
> I'm not sure how much better they could look or feel.
> They are lean, muscular and fit, gorgeous coats, clean ears, clear eyes, healthy skin..I don't think I could ask for better than that.


Ditto. Same here.


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## 1605 (May 27, 2009)

Javadoo said:


> I am perfectly happy with the outstanding results I have gotten from feeding my 2 labs premium, grain free kibble.
> I'm not sure how much better they could look or feel.
> They are lean, muscular and fit, gorgeous coats, clean ears, clear eyes, healthy skin..I don't think I could ask for better than that.


+1

We were getting such good results from our adult GSP being on EVO that we did not hesitate to put the puppy on it as well. Their coats are so shiny, you need sunglasses to look at them! <lol>

All kidding aside, I haven't regretted changing from "Brand X" dry food to EVO. We also supplement it with other protein sources like salmon, chicken or pork. Plus the occasional "treat" of carrots or yogurt.

And any teeth-cleaning is nicely handled by an abundance of Nylabones.


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## PDXdogmom (Jun 30, 2010)

I'm also a primarily kibble feeder (some home-cooking thrown in) who switched from lower quality kibbles to higher quality kibbles five years ago. The difference in my dogs condition is like night and day: better muscle tone, better coat and skin, better energy, rarely a hot spot, etc. If my dogs didn't look great or had some issues, I'm sure I would be researching and considering other ways of feeding (raw being one of them). But since they seem to be thriving on a rotation of kibbles with some supplementing added, I see no reason to look further.


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## meggels (May 30, 2010)

I might be different on this forum in that I have one dog that is on raw and one that is on kibble. My raw dog just needs to be on kibble. It's evident. His ears get gunky within a week of being on kibble. His body condition is gorgeous on raw, and I'd say his coat is the softest and silkiest it's been in the entire 1.5 years I've had him. 


My other one, to be honest, I don't know if I will put her on raw. Part of me thinks that I'd like to someday, and part of me thinks I'd like to save the effort (I know, go ahead and punch me) and keep her on a kibble because she is *perfect* on it. She's lean, shiny, so soft, does not smell, no health problems, she looks stunning. Right now she's on Natural Balance simply cause I get up to 30lbs of it free a month because of my job. It's not my ideal choice, and I think someday, when I'm stable, I'll put her on a better grain free kibble, like Earthborn, which she did great on....


So there's my .2 cents


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## lauren43 (Feb 6, 2011)

Kibble is very easy mindless thought-less. I also know many people worry about raw, whether it be bones or balancing or whatever else people worry about.


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## wags (Jan 31, 2009)

I am one of those who's dogs have done really well on kibbles food which I do throw the wet food in the evening meal which because of my one dog (evening seems to early but its working) is like 4PM to 5PM. But anyway no matter, I love my mom and pop stores, and I am currently favoring one, and heck I have to have my chit chat with them! They are wonderful people and yes I could just buy collars and such their but what I likei s that they also have very good insight into the food and the qualityof certain kibbles, and since I am a regular there, they tend to talk it up with me on various things that they have been studying in the kibbles food area which is so helpful! My dogs are doing so well right now, so why change things at this point I feel! They hear that clinking sound in the bowl and they see me either with the chicken or whatever leftover and I have put raw chicken in the bowl with the kibbles whether its good or bad they are doing great! And I read the ingredients also learned that and I am confident in what I feed them !!!!!! Right now the quality of the kibbles is really fantastic they are happy, I am happy ahhh life is good! Plus I started out feeding the worst of the worst never thought ever to read a label that wasn't ever anything I had thought just looked at the package and said that looks yummy for a doggy so its now something I have even told people I see looking at kibbles and bits and beneful bags I nonchalantly say have you read the back the ingredient label on that bag. You get some shocked looks but you get some people who go no never thought about it and ask well what do you feed and then the success begins!


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## DaneMama (Jun 27, 2008)

lauren43 said:


> Kibble is very easy mindless thought-less. I also know many people worry about raw, whether it be bones or balancing or whatever else people worry about.


I think that kibble for most people is mindless. They don't think about what they pour into their dog's bowls. But for the members here who do feed kibble, I don't believe it's mindless to them. I know that most kibble feeders here do tons of research on what is best, what they dont want in it, what companies are ethical, etc, etc. To me, kibble is far more complicated than raw. Yes raw is daunting but once you know what you're doing (through research and having a good set of mentors) its mindless really.

ETA: let's remember to be thoughtful on how we say things...so that no one is offended.


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## DogLuver (Oct 19, 2011)

I feed kibble for convenience sake, and because I haven't successfully persuaded my boyfriend yet on RAW. I like the idea of RAW, and I believe that it is how a dog is supposed to eat. I plan to feed my dogs RAW in the future. Like others, I guess I'm intimidated by it, it is unfamiliar (kibble fed my dogs all my life), and I'm afraid to do it wrong. Like someone else said in this thread (regarding the article about RAW fed dogs not getting proper nutrition), I am afraid that because I am not knowledgeable enough regarding RAW, that I would be THAT person, who RAW fed her dogs, and they suffered because she did it wrong...I just want to be confident in knowing exactly what I'm doing. 

Also, my dogs and I hop from place to place, friends, cousins, across country, they come everywhere with me, and when they don't I leave them with my parents or in-laws...so it's just easier to say, here's the kibble, they get XX cups a day...the end.

I like this thread, it's very interesting. So my only answer to "WHY NOT RAW" is because, I want to research it more, and understand better so I can do things properly for my dogs, and for the convenience of kibble (also I have been researching kibble for almost a year...I wouldn't wanna just THROW that out the window  kidding lol) Again like some others, I would switch if my dogs weren't doing GREAT on good kibble.


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## Javadoo (May 23, 2011)

DaneMama said:


> I think that kibble for most people is mindless. They don't think about what they pour into their dog's bowls. But for the members here who do feed kibble, I don't believe it's mindless to them. I know that most kibble feeders here do tons of research on what is best, what they dont want in it, what companies are ethical, etc, etc. To me, kibble is far more complicated than raw. Yes raw is daunting but once you know what you're doing (through research and having a good set of mentors) its mindless really.
> 
> ETA: let's remember to be thoughtful on how we say things...so that no one is offended.


Thank you!
I have put a ton of time and effort into my research of kibble.
There is nothing mindless about my choice of foods and my methods of feeding (I am a daily rotation feeder).


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## kevin bradley (Aug 9, 2009)

In fairness, many people are pretty mindless about many activities in their lives... not just the food they feed their Dogs.

It wouldn't be fair to label them anything other than consistent, at the least.


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## lauren43 (Feb 6, 2011)

DaneMama said:


> I think that kibble for most people is mindless. They don't think about what they pour into their dog's bowls. But for the members here who do feed kibble, I don't believe it's mindless to them. I know that most kibble feeders here do tons of research on what is best, what they dont want in it, what companies are ethical, etc, etc. To me, kibble is far more complicated than raw. Yes raw is daunting but once you know what you're doing (through research and having a good set of mentors) its mindless really.
> 
> ETA: let's remember to be thoughtful on how we say things...so that no one is offended.


I did not mean it at all as it was read. I just meant that scooping dry kibble into a bowl everyday is easy. Finding the right kibble for your dog is a completely different story.

I have been working on finding the right kibble for Tess, so I know what its like to buy food that works and food that doesn't. We are still working on it as I think Tess needs less protein than what is in higher quality kibbles. There are just soooo many ingredients to consider when you feed kibble, so I too believe its more complex when you want to know exact whats going into your dogs body.


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## kevin bradley (Aug 9, 2009)

Lauren,

I think Nat meant that for the avg. Dog owner, they don't put much thought into kibble... but we aren't the typical Dog owners and we do a great deal of thinking on our kibble. I believe thats what she was saying.


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## nupe (Apr 26, 2011)

Someone once gave me some good advice before and I like to share it here....""Think and re read what you typed before you hit the send button"!!...whatever thats worth.


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