# Diagnosis: Enteritis



## JayJayisme (Aug 2, 2009)

I was debating on whether to put this in the Raw Feeding forum or the Dog Health Issues forum, but since my dogs are raw fed, I thought this would be a better place. I don't need anyone suggesting I feed him something from Hills, or cook rice for him. Ain't gonna' happen. :wink:

That being said, my 20 lb. Cocker Spaniel/Dachshund mix has had an ongoing problem (since I got him from the local shelter about 2-1/2 years ago) with intermittent abdominal pain. In the beginning he had so many problems (kennel cough that evolved into antibiotic resistant pneumonia, coccidia, giardia, etc.) that this seemed fairly insignificant and seemed that it might even have been related to all the coughing he had with the pneumonia. Neither my vet, nor myself, thought much of it considering all the other issues he had, including massive problems with kibble (loose stools, weight loss on premium kibble, and too much weight gain on cheap kibble). I solved all that with PMR, which both of my dogs have thrived on since.

Except, this guy has had an ongoing, but very intermittent issue with abdominal pain, which recently has turned into painful bowel movements. For as long as I can remember, he would not let you touch his belly. He would roll over to have his chest scratched, but he would get nervous if you went for his belly, and if you did, and pressed on it even just a little, he would sometimes give you a "don't do that" snap at whatever hand was touching him. Again, the occurrences of this were always very random and the vet often couldn't always replicate it in the office, but sometimes he did. Even then, he chocked it up to gas, or some food that was disagreeing with him, or something like that.

But in late July he started having painful bowel movements, the kind where he would yelp as he passed his stools. Again, this was intermittent. Some days he would be fine, and others he would be in pain. In August we went on vacation for six weeks and it was intermittent then too, but lower in frequency than normally, so I was hoping it was just a passing issue. But a couple weeks ago, the painful bowel movements became more frequent, and a couple times I found fresh blood on his stools, suggesting he was bleeding from somewhere internally. All along I've been checking his stools and the episodes of pain don't seem to correlate with the firmness of his stools. Some days he has very firm stools, and no pain. Other days there would be pain with firm stools. But some days he has soft stools with pain, and sometimes with no pain. I couldn't detect a pattern related directly to the consistency of his stools. I did try giving him more meat and less bone but I've not seen any improvement doing this.

With the problem seemingly getting worse, and after seeing blood a couple of times, I decided to take him to the vet. They did a physical exam and colonoscopy and didn't find any tears, lesions, or polyps. But the vet said his intestines looked irritated and inflamed. They did a fecal to eliminate parasites as a cause, which came back negative. So the next visit was for x-rays and a blood draw. This was yesterday. The x-rays showed no blockage or bloating, or anything serious. But it did show intestinal inflammation, so the enteritis diagnosis was given, along with a couple meds, Flagyl (Metronidazole) and a probiotic (Endurosyn) as well as instructions to eliminate one of his protein sources (in this case, pork).

My vet, while somewhat tolerant of my raw feeding, is convinced that this is an allergy or some other reaction to one of the meats in his diet. I have a hard time believing that. If I had to guess, I'd bet that the massive doses of oral and intravenous antibiotics he got as a pup with pneumonia probably destroyed his gut and the problem never really corrected itself, and just got worse over time.

For now I'm following the protocol, and waiting to hear the blood test results, which I suspect won't reveal anything (he just had a annual physical in March and all was normal). 

For those of you with any experience with enteritis in raw fed dogs, any ideas, comments, suggestions? Feel free to ask any questions as I may have missed some seemingly obvious detail.

Thanks!

Jay


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## Chocx2 (Nov 16, 2009)

Have you tried feeding tripe everyday?


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## angelbears (Jun 9, 2011)

Sorry ya'll are going through this. I have no experience with this but I do agree with "If I had to guess, I'd bet that the massive doses of oral and intravenous antibiotics he got as a pup with pneumonia probably destroyed his gut and the problem never really corrected itself, and just got worse over time." Hopefully, the probiotic will help get his gut in whack. 

BTW, Metronidazole is an antibiotic. I never realized it was until recently.


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## JayJayisme (Aug 2, 2009)

Chocx2 said:


> Have you tried feeding tripe everyday?


No. He won't eat it. I'm not entirely convinced that tripe has any real benefit to a dog either. I'm not saying it's bad, but whether it's actually useful or not is unknown. I mean, just because there is some intestinal flora in it, it's the flora from a ruminant, not a carnivore. Not sure how useful it is to a carnivore. I have an open mind on this though, but I haven't heard pro-tripe arguments that are convincing enough for me to go to the trouble of trying to get him to eat it, which, frankly, would be a big PITA.



angelbears said:


> BTW, Metronidazole is an antibiotic. I never realized it was until recently.


Yeah, he had it once before right after we got him when he had intestinal parasites. It is apparently a broad spectrum treatment for intestinal issues, although I have no idea how it's going to help unless the inflammation is caused by some specific bacterial infection. I'm leery about giving antibiotics in an instance like this where it's just part of a "wide net". Hard to say if it is going to do more harm than good.


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

here's what i don't get and here are my own observations....i am not a vet but i do play at one, since sometimes i swear my vet should pay me.

my older girl has colitis and has, since she came to us at five weeks....we treat her as we would a human....and have had greater success over the years.

why would an inflammation be treated in the same way as an infection or an allergy.

if there is an allergy for pork, stop feeding it. retest in a month and observe the dog.

if it's an inflammation, i would think something would be given to coat the lining of the intestines....

there is a difference between enteritis and colitis...

so, if this is enteritis, your dog has an inflammation of the small intestine...what colour was the blood in his stools? small intestinal bleeding would cause a darker blood than the large intestine....

and if indeed your dog has enteritis....the last thing i would give this dog are antibiotics which would further irritate the lining...unless cultures are run and a bacterial infection is discovered.

i would put this dog on pureed raw chicken and give the gut a rest....add in other proteins...and know that this dog has a gut that was abused.

i'm sorry to say that i'm not a vet. but enteritis and colitis in humans is treated in much the same way.....soft bland diet, probiotics....no stress...

you had said that whilst you were on vacation, the episodes had slowed....sounds like your dog gets stressed easily and who can blame him, considering the beginnings he had...

it's not that you or your family is causing stress....some dogs stress more easily than others....

those are my thoughts....


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## JayJayisme (Aug 2, 2009)

Hi RE,

I think the vet is just casting a wide net since he doesn't really know the underlying cause of the inflammation. There is no way to test for a pork allergy since I feed raw. But since he doesn't know if the inflammation is being caused by an allergy or a bacterial event, he is treating both. It's like shooting in the dark for sure.

The blood in (actually on) his stool was bright red, suggesting a large intestine issue, which is why I asked for a colonoscopy initially. I was afraid there might be an actual tear or some other injury in there. But there wasn't. 

His diet while we were on vacation was primarily chicken since it was convenient and easy to obtain on the road. That is why the vet zeroed in on pork as a possible culprit, since he's eats more of it at home than on the road. 

I agree that the best course of action is a bland diet, no stress, and probiotics. I doubt if he'll eat pureed chicken though. He doesn't eat ground or pureed anything. I kind of created a "monster" by feeding him PMR. He won't touch kibble, canned dog food, or ground up anything now. He's a pretty smart little dude. :biggrin:

I'm still torn on the antibiotics. For now, he's on a all-raw-chicken and raw cornish hen diet. I guess I'll try that for awhile and see what happens.

Thanks for your comments.


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## JayJayisme (Aug 2, 2009)

Just got the call from the vet and, as I suspected, his blood work is "perfectly normal". I guess that's good, although it offers no further clues as the the cause of this issue.


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

honest to g'd, jay, i wouldn't give him antibiotics. he has no bacterial infection....it's the same with doctors giving out too many antibiotics to kids....and now we have resistant insert name here of super bugs.

we discovered slippery elm bark and i have to tell you, after malia's last bout....it was a wow....she was on it for a day or two...it coats her stomach and intestinal lining...and gives her gut a rest.

i then put her on chicken for a few days and she's fine.

what your dog has, i believe, is an chronic condition...that will flare up for no apparent reason or if there is one.....you may never know what it is. that it calmed down on chicken whilst on vacation tells me a lot.

chicken is easy to digest and vacation is always fun.....

anyway, i wish you luck. slippery elm bark comes in capsules which is how we give it to malia....we get it from super supplements...only use it for a few days because it also would prevent nutrients from being absorbed....

i think what you're doing with chicken and cornish hen is what i would do....

good luck to you.


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## DaneMama (Jun 27, 2008)

Metronidazole has an anti inflammatory component in it, along with the antibiotic. It's mainly used to treat giardia and colitis. If you're going to give an RX drug I'd give Sucarlfate, which works the same as slippery elm, by coating the intestines but it isn't an antibiotic. 

I agree wholeheartedly with Re. Taper off the antibiotics over the next day or two. Then start a true elimination diet. Feed nothing but chicken (which is what you're doing) for the next month or two. Although I think feeding whole raw meaty bones is fine, just trim them of fat and organ for a few days. Just chicken is a bland diet, so no need to puree it because unlike people dogs stomachs are highly acidic so they don't benefit from it being pre processed like we do. You can, but I don't think it's necessary. 

There is a chance he has an intolerance to one protein. From the sounds of your descriptions and how random it is this could very well be the case. For whenever you feed a specific protein he has an episode, either that same day or several days later. Maybe not an allergic reaction but just an intolerance that disturbs the flora of the gut.

The bright red blood is usually from irritated intestinal lining. There would have to be massive amounts of blood in comparison if it was a tear in the lining. 

Glad to hear his blood work is completely normal! 

Please keep us posted on him!


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

thanks, nat...that was the name of the drug i couldn't think of the name...

i know the other one has an anti inflammatory in it, but it's also an antibiotic....and i see you agree about not giving an antibiotic. i don't get why they do that....why do they do that?

especially in the absence of bacteria....

i don't know why i suggested pureeing the chicken...didn't know quite how bad it was.

we fed malia chicken and only chicken until she calmed down...

jay, i hope he gets better soon. we now look for triggers, such as wind storms for malia...and then we try to pre empt it with a bland diet, such as chicken.


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## JayJayisme (Aug 2, 2009)

I think the vet provided an antibiotic because he thinks it may be bacterial as a result of salmonella or some other pathogen from raw meat. As I said, this vet, while somewhat tolerant of my raw feeding, never misses an opportunity to try to take a sideways jab at it. It seems like the more Hills displays that go up in the office, the more combative he becomes regarding raw. 

Earlier this week I actually got a lecture that went something like this, "While raw meat may technically be the best food for a dog, dogs hunt and eat fresh kills so the meat is basically sterile when they tear into it". 

So I reminded him that dogs are also scavengers and will eat putrefied carrion and suffer no ill affects. That and the fact that almost all food borne illnesses and deaths in pets come from kibble.

He didn't have a response, and he knew I wasn't going to back down, so he left it at that. But here we are now with a treatment for an alleged food-borne pathogen, and the elimination of one protein. That looks an awful lot like an attack on the way I feed him, but done in polite, seemingly helpful, but slightly subversive way.

Hmm...I need to think about this a little. The way this multi-pronged treatment protocol is set up now, I won't know what made him better if he improves. Then if it happens again, we have to start from scratch.

Thanks all for your insight and suggestions. Some things to consider for sure.


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## DaneMama (Jun 27, 2008)

They do it because of habit and because they sometimes don't know what's going on so they blame it on bacteria. Basicaly an easy fix. Not to mention it works and makes owners happy. But Sucarlfate works too....I don't know why more of it is used because metronidazole is NOT good because it creates breaks in DNA structure, which is how it kills the bacteria. But over time it does affect the dog!


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## Chocx2 (Nov 16, 2009)

*trip*

My male choc lab survived parvo caught it at 5 weeks old, later found that the vaccines was not working that were use from one of the big companies. My friend is a vet and had vaccinated the litter and they still got sick and was not the only dog, it was like an outbreak needless to say they paid because of the vaccine failure. The good news, that he was one of three out of 10 that survived with lots of help and support blood transfusions, plasma, pain meds, and lots of antibiotics. He is my baby, spoiled rotten he went through a lot and came out like a champ.

But, he has inflammation from time to time which is what it sounds like your baby was diagnosis with, that is and I have tried several things that help him. I was giving him metronitazol "spelled that wrong" then probotics but found that the tripe cured his issues, maybe it has the right bacteria in it? Don't know but it worked for him and its not antibiotics which I hate giving. Thats the only reason I suggested it.

Good luck with your baby..eace:


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## RawFedDogs (Jun 16, 2008)

I'm with Nat & re ... I'd feed nothing but chicken for a month and see what happens. If symptoms disappear or are greatly reduced, I'd add back other protein sources maybe one every two or three weeks to help identify which is the culprit. It MAY be that once he is on chicken only for a month he will completely heal up and he will be able to eat most anything but I'd still just add one at a time to make sure. I'd also leave organs off for a few months.


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

jay, i think your dog has a stress condition..and his bowels pay the price.

i went through this with my vet. and he was subtle, knowing i was a doctor......so he couldn't come at me in the same way he talked to his other patients....

he knew i would question.....the protocol, the meds, etc.

i didn't talk to him about salmonella other than to say that whilst that is what he believes, it is not what i believe, so let's talk about another modality....

which is when he gave my dog a shot to calm down the motility of her intestines and coat her stomach and intestines....

in her case, she would stop eating...this last time lasted longer than any other time..and she is almost 12....

enteritis and colitis...merely involve one intestine or the other.....but the causes can be the same...and barring anything not seen or tested for or hidden from diagnosis, stress is often times the problem....especially when you went to the lengths you did go, by having a colonoscopy done. that's the benchmark for diagnosing an 'itis'....

i really do hope you think about what makes sense...you do have a very logical mind.....this is, if i am correct, and i think i am...a lifelong issue....

and what tipped it off was the vacation you guys went on...where he had chicken and no stress.


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## minnieme (Jul 6, 2011)

JayJayisme said:


> Earlier this week I actually got a lecture that went something like this, "While raw meat may technically be the best food for a dog, dogs hunt and eat fresh kills so the meat is basically sterile when they tear into it".


Unless you're consistently feeding carrion, I have no clue why he would say that. Is he really trying to imply that a fresh kill is far superior to human grade meat? If so, I certainly hope he is going out and killing his own meat himself and eating it promptly, since if it's not okay for a dog, it certainly wouldn't be okay for human consumption. 

Some veterinary logic boggles my mind sometimes. Even my vet who approves of raw still thought that when Minnie was having digestive issues, I should go to rice and boiled chicken. *sigh*


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## JayJayisme (Aug 2, 2009)

Well I had only given him one dose of the Metronidazole (yesterday morning) before I decided to drop that from the regimen. I just don't see how the advantages of an antibiotic outweigh the disadvantages in this case. I have continued with the probiotic (Endurosyn, 5cc twice daily), and only feeding him chicken (and scrambled eggs which is how I get him to eat his probiotic).

I'm still not convinced that pork is really an issue. As I said, he had tummy issues before I even fed him raw, which is why I suspect his gut was trashed from all the therapies that were administered to solve all the issues he had after coming out of the shelter (and living on the street for who knows how long before that). I think the suggestions to keep his diet simple to allow him to heal, then reintroducing other proteins gradually down the road makes sense. I scored a deal on a few pounds of chicken wings yesterday so he'll be in good shape diet-wise for the next few weeks.

On the vacation thing, he did have some pork when we were gone, just not as much as usual. I have no idea how his stress levels are when we go on trips versus at home. I mean, it's a 12-hour drive from home to the destination, which is clearly hard on both of my dogs to some degree. While we are up in the mountains, it's pretty chill. They seem to love it up there but it is not without its challenges too. Whether those induce stress on the dog or not is unknown to me, and if they do, is it more net stress there than at home, or the other way around? Who knows.

One thing that does seem to correlate with the more recent severity of this issue though is the fact that my wife gave birth to twin boys last year. They turned a year old last month and yes, it has been increasingly stressful for all of us in the household for the past year. We are all tired and cranky and just trying to deal with everything life is throwing at us from one moment to the next as best as we can. I'm sure the dogs feel it and they definitely get less attention now than they did prior to the arrival of the twins. For all I know this may be the kind of stress on him that pushed his intestinal issue from being a minor nuisance to a real problem. Hard to say. Not much I can do about it. I'm spread about as thin as one can get as it is.

For now though, he seems to be feeling better. He's been a little more playful and he's been eating and even guarding his uneaten food (something he hasn't done for awhile). That alone is a clue that we are on the right track. He values his food more now than before. I'll keep a close eye on him and see how it goes. He's way overdue for a trip to the groomer, which I'm sure is stressful on him too, but I need to take him in soon. I'll give it a few days though. 

Thanks again for all your input.


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

that's a pretty significant event in both human and dog life....

and yeah, it could very well trigger certain stressors in your dog....he sounds like he didn't have very good beginnings...

i know i'm going into the psyche of the dog, but i do believe that dogs get stressed and it manifests itself in either behavioural issues or physical issues....or both.

in this case, the intestines heal from the theraphies administered, especially when the therapies have stopped. his immune system has strengthened in the time you've had him and had him on raw....

however, i also believe that his gut is his vulnerable area and twins can make people cranky and sleepless....and it will rub off on the dogs..not saying overtly, but there is tension in the home....

not a bad thing...it is what it is.....it's normal for the situation...but go explain that to a dog.....

it tells me, however, that when you're chill, so is the dog.

i don't think it's food. i think it's twins...and this too shall pass....

and now you will know how to treat him when he gets an attack, which is inevitable....because the twins aren't going away.

after hitting age one, they will hit the terrible twos in double time...and your dog will have stress from it....it goes down your arm right to the dog.

you strike me as a kind man who loves his wife, his kids and his dogs.

research this as you've researched the paleo diet for you....

and i think natalie, dane mama, had a post about the language of dogs.....maybe there is a book that can be recommended.

because i am a shrink, i was bound and determined to find out what triggered malia....and we've uncovered quite a few.....not all, i'm sure, but the worst one for her is wind.....

and that's when we change her diet to a very bland one.....it doesn't stop the loose stools, but it rarely turns into a full blown diarrhea or bloody stools and pain...


and we use slippery elm bark when she has attacks..it only takes one or two capsules and she doesn't have as many attacks as she used to....

we also give her chicken or beef or pork broth.....which seems to soothe her intestines.

one thing you can't do is stop the stresses...all you can do is provide support for her intestines when you know a stressful situation is coming up....

i hope this helps...no need to respond. i'm sure you have your hands full.


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## JayJayisme (Aug 2, 2009)

magicre said:


> you strike me as a kind man who loves his wife, his kids and his dogs.


Thanks RE. I've been called worse...on numerous occasions. :biggrin: But yes, I care very much for all the creatures, big and small, two and four-legged, in my life.



magicre said:


> research this as you've researched the paleo diet for you....
> 
> and i think natalie, dane mama, had a post about the language of dogs.....maybe there is a book that can be recommended.


Yes, I need to fine-tune my skills in the doggie communication department. I am pretty "in-tune" with them, and other dogs, and usually know what they want or need long before anyone else does. But there is always room for improvement and I think this would help make life easier in the long run.

My other dog is a feral little girl who was a rescue and was such a difficult case that she had twice been returned to the rescue by two different foster families before she came to me. I was warned, and the rescue expected the worst because, well, she was pretty impossible. But I committed to her, learned a lot about her and how I think she sees the world, and have been pretty successful in rehabilitating her into an "almost normal" dog. She's still pretty fearful of strangers and children, but she loves my boys and watches over them whenever she is near them. Even my wife, who isn't really a "dog person", is amazed that this "crazy little girl" has had such a complete turn-around. My wife calls me Dr. Doolittle but in reality, I know there is so much more to learn from both of my dogs if I just knew what to look for. 

For now though, I'm trying to figure out what the baby-talk from 1-year olds all means. Since they are twins, they also have their own little language that they use exclusively between themselves.  What I really need is a shiny new crystal ball. :wink:

Jay


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

with your no nonsense blunt style, i can see how you would be ahem misunderstood lol

i'd loan you my crystal ball, but i need it....so i can continue to be all knowing and holier than thou.

in the meantime, i don't think there's a whole lot you need to do, except be aware that your dog gets stressed...and probably is brought on by life's events...

the good news is ....whilst you are learning how to handle your twins...good luck on that ...you'll know what to do for your dog....stress is stress....the cause still results in the same treatment....


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## DaneMama (Jun 27, 2008)

There is a very good chance that he has a mad case of stress induced chronic colitis/enteritis. When a bad episode happens supportive therapies will be needed. When they do occur just make sure your vet is prescribing the things he actually needs and not things he doesn't. Ask about Sucarlfate!


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