# Discussing Dog Health with General Public



## BrownieM (Aug 30, 2010)

Sometimes I have a hard time discussing nutrition/diet and vaccine protocols with the general public. It is frustrating because nobody ever has any idea what I am talking about, and since I typically only get a sentence or two in, I am completely misunderstood and people think I am some nut who doesn't vaccinate my dogs.

Do any of you experience this?

I really avoid talking about diet/vaccine protocols in most situations because I know that most people will not be on the same page as me, let alone agree with me. I know that I will likely be misunderstood and that it is not appropriate to try to explain in the time frame/window that you have in a typical conversation with a friendly stranger.

The general dog owning population in St. Louis is your typical family pet owning, vaccinate every year, feed a decent quality kibble crowd. Most have not been introduced to the idea of rethinking a kibble/processed diet. Most have also never been introduced to the idea that vaccinating every year might be harmful. Instead, most believe that not vaccinating every year is dangerous.:suspicious:

Example: I was at the dog park today talking to a group of people because someone had just gotten kicked out for being in the park with their little baby :tsk:. Anyway, the gossip was that supposedly that person's dog was not even "licensed" for our private dog park. Someone expressed concern because we didn't have any proof that that dog was even vaccinated! I said something to the effect of, "Well, I'm not really too worried about that, but..." Anyway, this man who seemed intelligent and to really know a lot about dogs (or at least thought he did ) and who also has some connection to the city, I think, told me that I really should be concerned because they want to keep this park clean. I explained that the only vax. required for the park are bordetella and rabies, so......

I said that I don't vaccinate mine for anything other than Rabies (or bord.) after 1 year. The man said "well you really should unless you want hefty vet bills....":tape2: I wanted to explain that, quite the contrary, yearly vaccinations are more likely to lead to hefty vet bills in the future....but...Didn't get a chance. Topic was changed. :frown:

And *I* looked like the person who doesn't know what the heck I am talking about.:rant: 

At least MY dogs aren't the ones getting vaccinated every year. :amen:


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## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

yep, the biggest blowhard always gets the last word. And I am never the biggest blowhard.


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## Sprocket (Oct 4, 2011)

Can I ask why you don't vaccinate your dogs after the first year? I've actually been wondering about this and would like to know more about it. My dogs currently have all their vaccinations but it just seems rather pointless after a while.


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## chowder (Sep 7, 2008)

Try having to sit through a lecture class with an animal control officer and keep your mouth shut at the same time. I didn't mention to them that I have never actually paid for a dog license in my entire life! 

You can never convince the biggest blowhard of anything. And they usually are the loudest ones talking, too. Too bad I wasn't there with you. I'd have gone off on the guy telling him that the two biggest vet bills I've ever had were actually CAUSED by vets and excess medication.


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## Tobi (Mar 18, 2011)

Sprocket said:


> Can I ask why you don't vaccinate your dogs after the first year? I've actually been wondering about this and would like to know more about it. My dogs currently have all their vaccinations but it just seems rather pointless after a while.


The link i apparently posted is broken... here is the pdf version of it.
http://www.drcarley.com/Science_of_vaccine_damage.pdf
This will explain it for you better than i can short of copy and pasting it to you.

In short, the booster shots are just eradicated by the already administered vaccines, and are essentially useless and possibly detrimental to your dogs well being.


OT, I ignore most conversations about vaccinations, and nutrition with the general public.


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## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

Tobi said:


> OT, I ignore most conversations about vaccinations, and nutrition with the general public.


Me too. Ironically, it seems the biggest idiots are at the dog park.


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## BrownieM (Aug 30, 2010)

Sprocket - I follow a reduced vaccination protocol.  Studies have proven that vaccines are effective for *at least* 3 years - if not longer - likely lifetime. Look up Dr. Dodd's vaccination protocol. Essentially, vaccinating our dogs every year is overkill and likely causes more issues than it prevents, including autoimmune diseases, cancer, etc.

Here are some interesting links. The experts can explain it far better than I can.  

http://www.rabieschallengefund.org/ - Rabies study on longevity of vaccine
Dr-Dodds-ChangingVaccProtocol - Dr. Dodd's Protocol

Even the AAHA (American Asnimal Hospital Association) suggests that dogs be vaccinated every 3 years rather than every year. Dr. Schultz and Dr. Dodd's have done additional research that suggests that vaccines are effective for much longer, likely lifetime.

The protocol that I follow is to complete the puppy shots (DHPP or DPV) and then to booster 1 year after the last puppy shots. After that, I titer 3 years later. Then, I will probably continue to titer every 3 years to provide paperwork for training, daycares, etc. to show that my dog is free of disease. (In place of vaccine records). My holistic vet has been following this protocol for years and said she has NEVER had a dog have low titers - at ANY point in their life - who has followed this protocol. So, in her experience, puppy shots and a 1 year booster has been 100% effective in the dogs that she sees.


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## monkeys23 (Dec 8, 2010)

How much does titering usually run? I am seriously considering titering instead of vaccinating with the 3yr distemper combo when Lily comes due next month.

I haven't had a vaccine myself since I was five, except for one flu shot that made me get the flu every time I got a cold. Yeah not doing that again!


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## Kat (Jul 12, 2011)

I completely agree! Ruby is almost two, so for her puppy shots everything went fine. On her 1 year booster, my vet suggested I vaccinate against leptosplerosis (sp?) and I stupidly agreed because she was making it sound like my dog really needed it. WORST ALLERGIC REACTION EVER! I had to rush her to the emergency clinic in the evening because she swelled withing 15 seconds. The reaction was 7 hours delayed because she had a few vaccines. She had to be admitted over-night to make sure nothing else would happen. She's a pug, but with the allergic reaction she literally looked like a really puffy shar-pei. I was looking into what BrownieM is talking about, because I find my vet overvaccinates, instead of them doing the rabies every 3 years, they booster it every year. I did the one year booster, but I will not be vaccinating again for the next three years. Because of the allergic reaction Ruby got from the vaccine, it actually caused her to develop allergies to her kibble, and after some trial and error I had to switch to raw because it is the only thing that works for her.


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## monkeys23 (Dec 8, 2010)

Thats scary!

Now with cats unfortunately the safest rabies vaccine is only good for one year. My vet explained why the test board ruled against allowing it to be good for three years and the reasoning was pretty stupid. BUT better to use the safer one than deal with feline injection site sarcoma which is very very nasty stuff! Hopefully the vaccine is eventually approved for 3 year use. I'm really glad my vet is up on that stuff.


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## chowder (Sep 7, 2008)

Kat said:


> I completely agree! Ruby is almost two, so for her puppy shots everything went fine. On her 1 year booster, my vet suggested I vaccinate against leptosplerosis (sp?) and I stupidly agreed because she was making it sound like my dog really needed it. WORST ALLERGIC REACTION EVER! I had to rush her to the emergency clinic in the evening because she swelled withing 15 seconds. The reaction was 7 hours delayed because she had a few vaccines. She had to be admitted over-night to make sure nothing else would happen. She's a pug, but with the allergic reaction she literally looked like a really puffy shar-pei. I was looking into what BrownieM is talking about, because I find my vet overvaccinates, instead of them doing the rabies every 3 years, they booster it every year. I did the one year booster, but I will not be vaccinating again for the next three years. Because of the allergic reaction Ruby got from the vaccine, it actually caused her to develop allergies to her kibble, and after some trial and error I had to switch to raw because it is the only thing that works for her.


When I got my black chow, the one thing the breeder insisted on was that I never give him a leptospirosis vaccine. It was the one that gave the most adverse reactions. I have an older vet and he did talk me into giving him one dose and that was my chow with all the allergies. I never associated it with that one vaccine until you just brought it up. 

Rocky is my first dog with limited vaccines. He had his puppy shot and then booster at one year and hasn't had any vaccines since then. He is 3 1/2 now so he'll get a rabies again when he's 4 but then only every 3 years after that.


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## minnieme (Jul 6, 2011)

I think most everyone here probably encounters this. Which is frustrating because I know the people who feed Iam's or Science Diet aren't bad dog owners and they love their dogs too. But they often shut down when nutrition/health is involved. I have NO clue why that is. I never go about it like I'm preaching and only talk about it if asked (or am faced w/ extreme stupidity and I can't help but get involved... yes, I am trying to work on that; I know it's pointless!!!). I think we are a very, very small minority of dog owners who actually care about that stuff. I think most people would be appalled that a lot of us here question vets' judgment so often to be honest. I don't know why people think it's so wrong to even research alternatives to what their vets suggest, regardless of if they implement a change or not. My sister is a prime example. Her rat terrier mix is a nutso, hyper, crazy dog. She MAYBE exercises him once a day (quick ten minute walk) and she feeds him Iam's which is lots of corn, wheat, soy, etc that I'm sure only adds to his craziness. But instead of switching his food or exercising him more (both of which I have GENTLY suggested), she resigns herself to living with a dog she doesn't like 75% of the time.

I don't know why people give up so easily on their animals...


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## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

My vet refuses to give leptosplerosis shots to small dogs - she says the chance of reaction is just way too high. I guess your pug proves the theory. I think your vet is not a good one.


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

when we got malia, she was too sick to get vaccinations.

she did get limited vaccines before she was a year and then she got boosters at 2 years. she has not had vaccines other than required rabies every three years since.

bubba was two when we got him. he had received his baby shots but we weren't sure if he really had because it was written on a piece of paper and not from a vet, so he got a full series.

none of my dogs got lepto because of what i've read and what my vets have recommended.....and malia will probably never get another rabies again.


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## monkeys23 (Dec 8, 2010)

My old landlords actually had one of their ACD's go into a very serious reaction to a Lyme disease vaccine. That sounded like it was a pretty awful experience...

I asked about titers for the distemper combo in my email to the vet for setting up an appointment. We'll see what they say!


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## Kat (Jul 12, 2011)

Yea I dont trust my vet with rabies and nutrition - there are three vets that work there, and one of them always tries to push me into buying Science Diet because ''its the best food on the market'' and she's the one who strongly suggest I get the lepto vaccine. If I had a car I would switch vets, but right now the vet I am at is the only option, because the other one around my area is even worse. With my previous dog that I had when I was younger, my parents only got his puppy shots and one year booster, and then he never got any vaccines for the rest of his life after that and he was fine. With the whole scare of what happened when Ruby did get vaccinated, I will be looking into it further, but for sure she will not be getting vaccines for the next three years. For my cats, my older one has been vaccinated twice and she is almost 7, and my younger one only got his kitten and booster shots. The only reason my older one even got vaccinated a second time was so I could adopt the younger one. I dont see the point in vaccinating cats if they are indoor, and it puts too much stress on my cats.


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## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

Sometimes you have to take the good and ignore the bad - I had the lepto shot for my big dog (same vet who wouldn't give it to the little one) and they always try to give EVERY vaccine in the same day.

Now that we are leaving the city and no more dog parks, I am going to get three year rabies shots and that's it.


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## Liz (Sep 27, 2010)

I know exactly what you mean and i am one of the nuts who doesn't vaccinate. We are going on about 7 years with no vaccinations. Yes, I researched and had many issues with vaccines over the years and no issues with out vaccinating.


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

Liz said:


> I know exactly what you mean and i am one of the nuts who doesn't vaccinate. We are going on about 7 years with no vaccinations. Yes, I researched andd had many issuess with vaccines over the years and no issues with out vaccinating.


and, because of you, we are no longer getting boosters for anything, except rabies every three years.

i don't know what i would do with a new dog, if i am brave enough to not vaccinate at all.....but i have time to think about it.....and know that i have you to talk me through it, should i get another dog and decide to go vaccination free.


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## lauren43 (Feb 6, 2011)

Luckily for me most of the ppl I talk to about my pets understand I research like crazy and I know what im doing. Some of the ppl at work give me crazy looks when I say I feed my dog raw, but instead of getting defensive I just say he's been on raw since before I got him and he's thriving.

I would love to do limited vaccines but I haven't found a vet willing to let me. Also Avery goes to daycare and the like...


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## monkeys23 (Dec 8, 2010)

Ouchies its going to be $170 for titering her. Please convince me its worth it because ouch!

I don't think I'd ever go totally vaccine free, especially after seeing first hand the horrible damage upper respritory disease does to unvaccinated cats. It took me so long to get Missy healthy and she will always have asthma. She'd be long dead if I hadn't taken her from the barn and made her a house cat. All that could be prevented with a couple vaccines... I guess at least we don't have to worry about the barn cats overpopulating. I hate that they don't take better care of those barn cats though, just freaking kills me. Livestock get great care, but not the semi-feral (some are really feral, only two are actually petable) barn cats.


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## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

Is that cost for titering for everything?


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## Liz (Sep 27, 2010)

Re, Thank you for your kind words. To most I am kooky but that's okay, may dogs are healthy as are my non vacc kids. LOL When you get a pup I will be there holding you back, :happy:


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## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

OK i'll admit it - up until 1992 I never got anything but rabies vaccinations for my dogs. We were just too poor, I didn't have any more honorable reason than that.

I never heard of Parvo then. We had heard of distemper but my dogs never got anything - not even worms. I guess maybe because they never came into contact with very many other dogs.


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## monkeys23 (Dec 8, 2010)

xellil said:


> Is that cost for titering for everything?


I just asked what the cost for the titering for the distemper combo would be. But in her reply it said rabies titer, so honestly I'm not sure! Either way, yeowch! I can probably afford it, but thats a lot uglier than paying $50 or less for two 3 year boosters. 

I plan to vaccinate for rabies (3yr) though. On the off chance my dog actually has to do her job and protect me (I hope that occasion never arises, but you never know), I want her wearing a current rabies tag.


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## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

I will always get rabies because if something happened the authorities could take my dogs. 

My parent's two dogs were taken when she called about a raccoon in her yard that was acting sick - and the dogs hadn't been anywhere near it. They had let their rabies vaccinations lapse by about 2 months.


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## monkeys23 (Dec 8, 2010)

She's checking with the doc about the price for the distempter titer. She thinks they can do it. Hopefully its not as pricey as the rabies one...


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## BrownieM (Aug 30, 2010)

monkeys23 said:


> She's checking with the doc about the price for the distempter titer. She thinks they can do it. Hopefully its not as pricey as the rabies one...


It shouldn't be expensive at all. The rabies titer isn't even legally accepted, I don't believe, because there has not been a titer level established for dogs. People go off of the levels that have already been established for people. This is why the Rabies Challenge Fund is so important. Not only will that study determine additional longevity for effectiveness of the vaccine, it will also establish a valid antibody level so that we can titer dogs.

Personally, I don't plan to titer often at all. I will titer 3 years after my 1 year booster so that I have an alternate way to prove that my dogs are free of disease, since they won't have a proof of vaccination. Most places will accept a titer in place of proof of vacc. I will then only titer every 3 years if I need to for that same purpose.

If your vet is quoting an outrageous price, look up the Hemopet titer lab services (Dr. Dodds).


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## meggels (May 30, 2010)

Question...what would lead a state/town to confiscate your dogs because of rabies?

Murph had his rabies vaccine at 6 months old and had a very bad reaction, and I did not get it again when he was due in March. The vet and I talked about it and he was supportive of this decision and said he would write a letter to the state veterinary board to get Murph excused from it if I wanted. 

Murph is pretty much an indoors dog. He's completely gentle and friendly and would never bite anyone. What do I need to be careful of to hopefully ensure he is never put into a possible sticky situation? What would make them confiscate a dog?


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## monkeys23 (Dec 8, 2010)

I wasn't planning to titer rabies anyway. But thanks so much for all the info!

Could be a landlord/neighbor issue or what if some crackhead breaks into my house and dogs stop him? They aren't Frenchies, they are GSD mixes that train in personal protection. We train for fun and I hope they never have to use their natural instincts that training provides control for.

If there is a problem (many states can and will seize your dog if you do not follow the state laws by vaccinating for rabies) your dog will be seized and quaratined. Then possibly euthanized and beheaded for a brain necropsy.

Dogs aren't plush toys, they are carnivores with teeth... even the very gentle ones. Mine are extremely social and friendly to pretty much everyone, they are good canine citizens. But they are dogs and most dogs with any level of intelligence aren't going to be happy if someone hurts their person or invades their home.

Plus I just feel that rabies is not something to screw around with. Especially since they haven't yet determined actual canine titer levels yet.


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## meggels (May 30, 2010)

i think the key phrase here is "most dogs with any level of intelligence" lol


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## DoglovingSenior (Jun 26, 2011)

Funny, I just posted about this under another thread. People have listened to me re Vaccinations because I begin with I first heard about how damaging vaccinations could be when I took my dog to a wonderful clinic in Charleston and the ONCOLOGIST asked had I been vaccinating my Heart each year. Then told me to stop. It was too late for my boy who had splenic hermangiosarcoma,but I have NEVER given yearly vaccinations since. Some have gotten back with me to say "Thanks". Not so lucky with the PMR issue but hey, 1 out of 2. . . .
My vet informed me that the State of GA will now accept the evidence of immunity from titers! I had already had Jolies vaccination (her titers came back 
GREAT for Parvo, a terrible death) and distemper) The guys will get the rabies titers, for their next annual check up and the cost will be $150.00 each & well-worth it to me! I'm not wealthy, but they have loved & protected me for 13 & 11 years and deserve anything that I can do for them.


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## DoglovingSenior (Jun 26, 2011)

Ask your vet to check other labs. I've used Dr. Dobbs for years & it is rather high. This year the vet tried another lab that is supposed to be very good and the cost for the distemper & parvo was less than $100.


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