# K-9 Patrol Class - Another Job I Won't Be Doing!



## chowder (Sep 7, 2008)

I had my first K-9 Patrol class last night and I managed to disagree with almost everything they said in the class! Luckily I am real good at keeping my mouth shut. I have learned that it is one area of the police department that I probably will not be able to work in because I'd get kicked out in seconds.

Picking their dogs......
They get all their dogs from Europe so that they can get them from stock that has a long history of police work. This is fine. But the dog we were working with developed hip dysplasia by age 6 and was retiring at age 8 because it had gotten so bad. If you are paying huge money to import a dog, could you at least get it from dogs that have been bred to have less of a disposition for this? This apparently is a common thing with their dogs. They are the incredibly sloped back legged German Shepherds and that's the only breed they will use in this department. Really, a dog should be able to keep walking past the age of 8 when you start out paying $7500 for it. 

Training.....
They train entirely using toys as a reward. When I asked about clickers and treats, he said they are never allowed to use food rewards (because of bad guys giving food) and only use the toy. I asked him what they do for dogs that don't view toys as a reward. This was the interesting part. When they pick puppies to become police dogs, they pick out a few toys and start playing with the puppy. They find a puppy that is obsessed with a toy and will chase it over and over again until your arm literally becomes too tired to throw the toy for the puppy anymore. Then they know they have a future police dog candidate. It has to be a dog that is obsessive over a toy and will work itself to death to get that toy back!

His dog was 8 years old and all it still cares about it getting a rubber kong from the officer. It did a search pattern for us and when it found the item, it was handed the kong and immediately laid down and spent the rest of the time gnawing on it. It completely ignored us, the officer, the scenery, everything except gnawing on that toy. And it's been doing that for 8 years!!! 

Rocky would have been staring at me the whole time waiting for cues as to what I expected from him. It just goes against everything I do with my dogs to have a dog so obsessed with one item and not stay focused on me. 

He also did a whole talk about being the "Alpha' dog and doing "Alpha rolls' and stuff like that ....... I didn't even get into asking what they feed them (he did mention handing the dog handfuls of food and taking it away if the dog growled at all to prove he was "Alpha" so I assume it was some kind of kibble). I was still trying to absorb this whole 'toy obsession' training thing. 

But, they were pretty dogs!!


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## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

I thought the US was the only country that deformed their dogs like that on purpose.


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## CorgiPaws (Mar 31, 2009)

xellil said:


> I thought the US was the only country that deformed their dogs like that on purpose.


Blanket statements are annoying.


While I don't necessarily agree or disagree with the ways that police dogs are picked, trained, or handled I will say that raising a companion dog, and raising a dog with an important job like police work are two entirely different fields. 
There are aspects of it that I disagree with- such as the "Alpha" training... but the toy bit is a ok in my book. 
Most working dogs be it police dogs- bomb dogs- bed bug dogs- search and rescue dogs- are picked based on toy drive, because that's often times a big part of training them. To US, they are sniffing out a bomb. To them, they are sniffing out their toy. Toy-driven dogs are some of the easiest to train for certain jobs and it's that reward that makes them so damn good at what they do. 
There are other factors that come into play, of course. I'm not a professional trainer and have certainly not trained a dog to do any kind of job like that. But, I did after high school take a class that focused on ALL careers concerning animals and I met a bomb dog and trainer, several police dogs, and a search and rescue dog. The one thing they had in common: they were ALL so incredibly toy driven. I wish I remembered the name of the Search & Rescue people we got to meet, they were in San Diego.... but they actually would get their dogs from shelters- usually the ones that were dumped for just being "too much." They'd test them with toys before getting them, and they made the best working dogs because of that toy drive.


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## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

That's not a blanket statement. I didn't say every GSD in the US has deformed legs.


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## CorgiPaws (Mar 31, 2009)

xellil said:


> That's not a blanket statement. I didn't say every GSD in the US has deformed legs.


fair point. 
though it did imply no other countries did- which is far from true. Not really the topic of the thread though... so....:focus:


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## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

No, I didn't know that other countries did. I thought it was only the US.

I also thought PDs were only using Malanois now, because they are better suited to police work both temperament-wise and physically, because of the rear leg thing. But the trainer that I use imports GSDs from Slovakia and they have straight legs and I think he does sell some to police departments. 

Regardless, I'm sure it was a good experience - I can't imagine what it would take to become a police dog, so I can't comment on the training. But I do know that yes, for my family pet, I would like to be able to get his attention when I want to.


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## monkeys23 (Dec 8, 2010)

Some still use GSD's and some even use Labs, APBT's, etc. for detection work.

A lot of US breeders of working dogs may not necesarily have the right balance of drive and correct structure. There is a heavy tendancy toward breeding for looks and size in the US, which is stupid with working dogs... and what sport people want is not necesarily what works in real life either.

For example having met some trial bred BC's and comparing them with the ranch bred unpapered BC I had growing up.... Its kinda really sad how paltry and watered down they are in comparison.

All GSD's are going to have some extent of angulation, its what gives them their trademark movement, BUT if they are buying crap bred west German showline dogs then they are just morons. 
Some of the best working GSD's being produced today are either west German working line OR a cross of WG working lines and DDR/Czech/Slovak lines.
GSD's do have the advantage of being thinkers, whereas Mali's and Dutchies are often going too fast physically and mentally to slow down and work out a problem.

You can have crap built/temperament Mali's too.... Look at AKC showline dogs..... far too square, nervy as hell.... ugh I wish the AKC would stay the f away from working dogs.

I don't like how often prey drive only dogs that are specifically ball obsessed are being selected. IMO a balanced dog can be both serious in defense/fight and also have a healthy dose of prey drive. And I think that a thinker can be more useful as far as a PSD dog, especially dual purpose ones.

That said, IMO a Mali or Dutchie is the best. They just haven't been as overbred as GSD's, which will sadly change as they become more popular.

BUT there's a reason my trainer (who is a former K9 officer himself!) would not even consider selling a dog to local law enforcement here. He doesn't want them f'ing up a dog he gives them for free and then trying to return it... And incidentally he trains all positive with tugs.

As someone who trained with food.... gawd I wish I could take that back and just train with toy rewards! Yes it has its place, especially with pet dogs.... but I regret using food rewards with Lily.

My trainer has been helping a guy who lives three hrs away with raising his imported maligator pups. Its so fun to see the groundwork games and interact with them!

The one big problem is that not all places in europe (just like here ) health test their dogs. So you have to know people who know reputable people. There are a couple breeders I would feel comfortable going to here in the states, but for the same $$ I could import a pup. Its really not that much different pricewise... And most police/military get 10-20% discount from nearly all breeders, here or internationally. I know the guy whose pups I've gotten to play with cost about the same as one pup here would have cost. He went through a guy whose name my trainer gave him.

A nice little Czech line GSD bitch that is 10 months old has been coming to training the last few times. She and her owner had four or five sessions with another guy in the area before switching to my trainer. The owner has conflict with outing her off the sleeve which is a result of using the other guy's outdated methods (he's eastern european and having seen a few work dogs, they really go in for the old school alpha and crank and yank methods.... not a fan!)... and she's also 100% equipment focused, which is not what you want in a PP dog. She's already getting better and its nice because she's got all the drives there its just a matter of tweaking the training to get rid of that created baggage and keeping her calm while working and doing some OB before bitework... because without fixing those issues now she could be a real problem by the time she's two years old. And once they move her to the bitesuit jacket, there really won't be a problem with focus on equipment.

Its been interesting seeing those issues in comparison with teaching the 18 month old Dobe this other guy has to out on the tug because since my trainer started from scratch with that dog and his handler, the dog is being taught all positive by just being allowed to hold the tug while the handler holds his collar so that when he drops it naturally he can keep him from snatching it again and step to the side away from it, while petting the whole time and then the dog is rewarded by going again and getting the tug again right away. I love watching that Dobe, he is such an awkward teenager even though he is huge, lol.

And my dogs, being sled dog mutts, are not real focused on the tugs or other equipment. Lily could give a crap about the tug, she wants my trainer and thats that. So I play with them with bitework tugs and we focus on getting them to hold the tugs, etc. They are both doing really well and have been lightly started on the puppy sleeve.


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## chowder (Sep 7, 2008)

This class was really an eye opener for me because I've never been exposed to that type of training style before. These dogs are all GSD's from Czech Rep. and all were dual purpose dogs because it is a smaller department so they don't have enough dogs to specialize any in just one area. They all ranged about 100 pounds in size and were all shipped over at about 1-2 years old untrained. 

I suppose I could see how having toy driven dog (or obsessed as I call it !) would be a benefit for a working dog that you only have 3 months to train with and then have to go out in the field with as a handler. It just is so totally foreign to me to see that type of relationship between the dog and the handler. The dog actually just listens to the handler talking in the background while playing with the toy and if he hears the handler raise his voice, then he will look up for instructions. It would just be really hard for me to live and work with a dog like that on a 24/7 basis for the 6-7 years they demand you devote to it when you sign up. I don't interact with my dogs in that way. 

It still seems to me that you could train a more balanced dog using clickers and praise and have a more natural, bonded type relationship with it. But then again, this was my first time seeing dogs trained this way so maybe it's the best way and I'm just not suited for it.


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## monkeys23 (Dec 8, 2010)

So they are just buying adult dogs? I am of the mind that if you are going to get a dog to work, you should be the one to raise and train it. I do like skipping the puppy stage, but unless its coming from someone I really really trust and know exactly how it was raised I know I'll have to go the puppy route next time. It blows getting dogs past someone elses baggage so you can actually do something with them. But whatever thats just me.

And the vast majority of working dog people these days DO use clickers and/or praise. :wink:

Very very few REPUTABLE people still follow the old school methods.

Unfortunately from what I've heard from working dog people, there are a lot of departments that might not be on the up and up with all that jazz.

And 100lbs is somewhat oversized for German dogs, but not unheard of... it is however WAY out of the norm for a Czech dog. They tend to be a little smaller than some of the other lines... The little bitch at training is maybe 50-55lbs. I would say 50-65 is the norm for Czech bitches. Males can be up around 90-100 if they've got heavy boned DDR lines in the mix, but mostly you only see American showline dogs that oversized. I know someone with a west German male on the top end size wise and he's only 88lbs or so. A family friend has a W. German working & DDR line combo bitch (one of the first combos of those lines.... she was bred not long after the wall came down) and she was only 60lbs at her ideal weight. She weighs less now because she's getting really old and infirm.

Sounds to me like some broker is getting some good $$ out of this poor dept.

Some of the better working dogs are too hard for pet owners or pet training methods. I know some dogs that would eat the average pet owner alive. Literally.

Hell even my own softie rescue Scout would walk all over the average pet owner in her own passive aggressive way. And Lily is PRO at playing people who aren't me. We use a lot of positive techniques, but for building a working relationship you do need appropriate corrections from time to time. And instead of "oh woe is me!" the lightbulb turns on and they go "oh thats what you wanted!!!! OKAY!"


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## sozzle (May 18, 2011)

We have a TV programme on here at the moment called 'Dog Squad' following working dogs in the NZ Customs dept and other dogs trained to sniff out drugs on prison visits and at the Mail Depots. I have noticed that they give toys as a reward too, they mostly appear to be black labs. Police dogs tend to be Alsatians (German Shepherds) and there is one at Auckland airport, a beagle who has twice now sat next to me or my husband on our re-entry into the country, which is a bit nerve wracking!! Luckily there were no drugs involved just food traces. You cannot bring any fresh food including fruit into the country because of our strict bio security laws. I had a couple of days before had a packed lunch in my backpack hence the dog sitting down next to it. I don't think they thought I looked shifty or nervous though as they were pretty relaxed whilst searching my bag.
Clever dog!


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## KlaMarie (Dec 30, 2010)

chowder said:


> I suppose I could see how having toy driven dog (or obsessed as I call it !) would be a benefit for a working dog that you only have 3 months to train with and then have to go out in the field with as a handler. It just is so totally foreign to me to see that type of relationship between the dog and the handler. The dog actually just listens to the handler talking in the background while playing with the toy and if he hears the handler raise his voice, then he will look up for instructions. It would just be really hard for me to live and work with a dog like that on a 24/7 basis for the 6-7 years they demand you devote to it when you sign up. I don't interact with my dogs in that way.


But you have to also think about what is required of the police k9s versus what is required of the average pet. My pets, I want them to be into ME. I want them to look to me for everything, I don't necesarily want them to be comfortable just walking away and leaving me. 
But police k9s have to be very independent and confident when performing certain tasks. The officers have to send their dogs AWAY from them to bite the bad guy. They can not have their dogs looking back at the handler for directions, it needs to be complete focus on the perp. Most of those dogs are so confident, they have no issues with leaving their handler to fight a bad guy. Because these dogs have to be able to fight through gun shots, knives, fists, clubs.....and everything else in between. A dog cannot handle the type of pressure without some serious drive, be it fight or prey, coupled with supreme confidence. So for most officers, a healthy level of independence in a police k9 is a plus, not an unwanted trait.


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## KlaMarie (Dec 30, 2010)

monkeys23 said:


> And the vast majority of working dog people these days DO use clickers and/or praise. :wink:


True. From my experience, if you're including those who train at the club level, I'd say it's better than 50% who use mostly positive reinforcement. There are still a few old school people, but the ones who are winning at national and international competitions....yeah, they use positive markers, because it works!!!!



monkeys23 said:


> Some of the better working dogs are too hard for pet owners or pet training methods. I know some dogs that would eat the average pet owner alive. Literally.


Oh heck yes. People always ask me where I got Rayne......I usually talk around it without actually giving them a name. And she did eat me, for months, I have the scars. It's gradually getting better. But if I'm not careful when she's in serious drive, she will still reach around and tag me sometimes. She has a lot of aggression crammed into her little 6 month old body that I am tryin to NOt tap into right now. I cannot imagine her in the hands of someone who isn't fully committed to working her.


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## monkeys23 (Dec 8, 2010)

KlaMarie said:


> But you have to also think about what is required of the police k9s versus what is required of the average pet. My pets, I want them to be into ME. I want them to look to me for everything, I don't necesarily want them to be comfortable just walking away and leaving me.
> 
> But police k9s have to be very independent and confident when performing certain tasks. The officers have to send their dogs AWAY from them to bite the bad guy. They can not have their dogs looking back at the handler for directions, it needs to be complete focus on the perp. Most of those dogs are so confident, they have no issues with leaving their handler to fight a bad guy. Because these dogs have to be able to fight through gun shots, knives, fists, clubs.....and everything else in between. A dog cannot handle the type of pressure without some serious drive, be it fight or prey, coupled with supreme confidence. So for most officers, a healthy level of independence in a police k9 is a plus, not an unwanted trait.


I want a dog that can work away from me, but talking to more and more pet owners I'm not sure I qualify as a regular ol' pet owner as far as what I want. A lot of the good traits you list for PSD's are traits I'd also want in a dog to use in personal protection and herding for real life use.
Also, I feel like a dog can absolutely really be into its person and still be totally capable of working away from them. A lot of that is training... if you build always being right next to you then yeah they are going to be insecure if they aren't.... especially if your a person who reassures every ten seconds.... if you aren't right there they are going to be insecure with working away from you.

Its been interestign actually... the little bitch that just started training with us has been going through trouble shooting because her owner does a LOT of reassurance and has a lot of conflict on the out with her so I've gotten to listen to my trainer work on teaching him to stop reassuring when its NOT needed and to just let her do her job and my trainer has basically fixed the out conflict in one session by being in charge of a second lead attached to a prong and it only took one two good corrections (her owner gives the verbal) and being rewarded with another bite when she outs. You could see the lights click on and her work calmer in drive instead of getting so jacked up and frustrated. I've noticed her owner gets her more jacked into frustrated drive by constant reassuring too.... the main goal with her right now as I've observed it is training her owner and getting her working calmly in drive... because she's got oodles of that to spare, lol.

I honestly don't give a crap if my dogs are into other people and in fact while they are social enough to greet people and be awesome in public, always friendly etc.... hah, good luck getting one to ever follow a command from someone not me. And they aren't even bred for what I do with them... My mom said they are pretty aloof when she babysits them, whereas I can't go to the bathroom by myself. At. all. And they adore her, so yeah.

Its been a good experience for me working with a softer dog like Scout, but she would still probably be considered hard by most peoples standards.... She'll still nail me on the butt/hand if she gets too in drive during fetch/tug play and I'm not paying close enough attention to getting her targeting correctly. Lol, and she's a mostly GSD/Terv sled dog from a hoarding bust and has what I would consider pretty crappy genetics! She's stable and she's got great drive, but she sure isn't what I'd have looked for as far as what I personally want in a dog. She doesn't even flinch with the baton or any kicking action coming at her when she's working. You'd never guess it was the same dog if I had videos of now and when she first came to me. I have a hunch that if she'd fallen in my lap as a pup she wouldn't have near the baggage that she's got. Its amazing what pet homes can do to a working dog. Very nice adopters had her, but oy vey sooooooo not prepared for a working GSD mix puppy that just went through a traumatic experience.


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## chowder (Sep 7, 2008)

It's really interesting to me to hear the totally different ways that you work with your dogs in their protection training. I find it fascinating and will definitely read up more on it. I'd love to find a group around here that does that and watch them sometime. 

The different ways that the breeds react are interesting too. I was really observing Rocky (the Chow) this morning because we are now walking at 5am and it is pitch dark out. When it's dark out he walks right next to me and constantly scans and observes the area while he walks but never leaves my side. He doesn't sniff the ground or do his normal doggie stuff. When we walk in full daylight he ventures out to the end of his 20 foot leash, sniffs everything, and does all the doggie stuff but comes right back to my side as soon as he see's another person. It must be fairly instinctual because I've never worked with him on anything like that. It would be really hard to get a dog like him to work away from me because to him, his whole purpose is to protect me (he is on my feet right now). I can understand the toy driven need for a working dog more now. 

Shade, on the other hand, just wanders all over the place totally oblivious to everything!


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## KlaMarie (Dec 30, 2010)

monkeys23 said:


> Also,* I feel like a dog can absolutely really be into its person and still be totally capable of working away from them*. A lot of that is training... if you build always being right next to you then yeah they are going to be insecure if they aren't.... especially if your a person who reassures every ten seconds.... if you aren't right there they are going to be insecure with working away from you.


I do too, and I'm trying to achieve this right now with my pup, only I have the opposite problem of her being insecure away from me  . The decoy is VERY important to her right now, and until I started changing our routine in the last cople of weeks, the decoy was becoming more important to her than I was. She would pay barely any attention to me after she got that first glimpse of the clatter stick and bite pillow. She has more confidence than I have ever seen in a dog, and she's only 6 months old. So taking the advice of my trainer, I stopped letting her drag me onto the field, played tug with her as we walked out instead. We have just started asking for control during bitework, making her at least listen to and perform a single command before getting her bite, just doing the beginnings of capping her drive. We're trying to make me at least close to equally important to her as the decoy is, letting her know that I am the bringer of all things good, even when the decoy is out there. And we're making great progress, so it's definately possible.


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