# Orijen LB Puppy or Regular Puppy?



## mrsboondox (Jul 10, 2010)

Well now that I've posted my intro I figure I better get to the matter at hand.. I am in a pickle. I am getting the new pup friday.. I suspect her mature weight to be anywhere from 55-70 lbs. I went out and bought a bag of Orijen Puppy but I keep going from keeping it, to bringing it back and exchanging for the Large Breed Pup. This is going to be a AKC conformation dog/working dog so proper growth is my #1 concern. Any opinions on this would be great! Thanks in advance :redface:


----------



## buddy97 (Mar 29, 2010)

the puppy and puppy large are very similar. id opt for the puppy large due to the lower fat levels. (im assuming you are talking about a larger breed dog??)

otherwise, avoiding overfeeding (feeding the minimum amount necessary) and keeping him lean throughout his growth will be critical, regardless of what food you choose.


----------



## RawFedDogs (Jun 16, 2008)

The two are so alike as to make no difference. The first 10 ingrediets are exactly the same. 3 or 4 others just change places on the list. For all pratical purposes, those two foods are identical.

I don't worry about fat content. Fat doesn't affect dogs like it does humans.


----------



## chowder (Sep 7, 2008)

My dog actually just prefers the taste of the Large Breed Puppy Orijen over regular Orijen. I'm not sure what is different about it, but he wouldn't eat the regular and has no problem eating the large breed. He is still on it and he's 2 years old. There really isn't much difference between the adult and puppy as far as nutrition, so I just keep him on the LBP strictly for the taste preference.


----------



## SaltyDog (Mar 10, 2010)

chowder said:


> My dog actually just prefers the taste of the Large Breed Puppy Orijen over regular Orijen. I'm not sure what is different about it, but he wouldn't eat the regular and has no problem eating the large breed. He is still on it and he's 2 years old. There really isn't much difference between the adult and puppy as far as nutrition, so I just keep him on the LBP strictly for the taste preference.



Agree....this is the only Orijen formula that either of my dogs will go right to it or keep it down.

I've never tried the regular puppy formula, but Orijen Adult, they just didn't care for and they just can't keep 6 Fish down :frown:


----------



## Eurobox (May 17, 2010)

Off topic...just wanted to know what kind of dog? I will be attending my first conformation show this weekend! Nervous!


----------



## mrsboondox (Jul 10, 2010)

I am getting an American Staffordshire Terrier. Will be my first show dog so I am already nervous =) 

I guess I will stick with the Regular Orijen puppy. the breeder INSISTS that the proplan is the best food since her dogs look good on it but I told her to trust me and she will see a difference.


----------



## Doc (Jan 17, 2009)

I have raised pups on Orijen LBP. Even as adults, they preferred the LBP over the adult.


----------



## mrsboondox (Jul 10, 2010)

What breed of pups?


----------



## GermanSheperdlover (Nov 15, 2009)

mrsboondox said:


> Well now that I've posted my intro I figure I better get to the matter at hand.. I am in a pickle. I am getting the new pup friday.. I suspect her mature weight to be anywhere from 55-70 lbs. I went out and bought a bag of Orijen Puppy but I keep going from keeping it, to bringing it back and exchanging for the Large Breed Pup. This is going to be a AKC conformation dog/working dog so proper growth is my #1 concern. Any opinions on this would be great! Thanks in advance :redface:


I like the fact that Orijen has the highest levels of Glucosamine and Chondroitin I could find in a dog food. This is really the only difference between the Adult Orijen and the Puppy formulas. This really isn't that much, but I like this fact. Plus in my area they are all cost the same.

Orijen Large breed Puppy & Reg Puppy...
Glucosamine (min.)	1400 mg/kg
Chondroitin (min.)	1200 mg/kg

Orijen Adult,,,,,
Glucosamine (min.)	1200 mg/kg
Chondroitin (min.)	900 mg/kg

It is listed under the ANALYSIS on the right side of every product.

Orijen Pet Foods: Products


----------



## SaltyDog (Mar 10, 2010)

GermanSheperdlover said:


> I like the fact that Orijen has the highest levels of Glucosamine and Chondroitin I could find in a dog food. This is really the only difference between the Adult Orijen and the Puppy formulas. This really isn't that much, but I like this fact. Plus in my area they are all cost the same.
> 
> Orijen Large breed Puppy & Reg Puppy...
> Glucosamine (min.)	1400 mg/kg
> ...


Chondroitin has zero bioavailabilty so this is a Champion Pet Food gimmick and they do not list what form of Glucosamine it is. HCI or Sulfate???

Also, it is measured in milligrams PER KILOGRAM NOT CUPS.

They also do not tell you if it is added prior to or "sprayed on" after cooking.

Additives like these are pure gimmick. None-the-less, Orijen is still a great kibble and it is what I feed my 11 month old puppy when I have to feed kibble. 

If you really want to add Glucosamine Sulfate take a look at CanEVA or Buck Mountain Botanicals.


----------



## buddy97 (Mar 29, 2010)

SaltyDog said:


> Chondroitin has zero bioavailabilty .


i agree with your post, but i assume you meant this in the context of chondroitin in a processed dog food.


----------



## SaltyDog (Mar 10, 2010)

buddy97 said:


> i agree with your post, but i assume you meant this in the context of chondroitin in a processed dog food.



Chondroitin sulfate is a huge molecule, molecular weight is approximately 50,000. Its bio-availability is near zero. There are those that argue that they have low weight chondroitin. There is no such thing as high and a low.


----------



## buddy97 (Mar 29, 2010)

SaltyDog said:


> Chondroitin sulfate is a huge molecule, molecular weight is approximately 50,000. Its bio-availability is near zero. There are those that argue that they have low weight chondroitin. There is no such thing as high and a low.


what are they talking about here when referencing low molecular weight chondroitin?

_The bioavailability and pharmacokinetics of glucosamine hydrochloride and low molecular weight chondroitin sulfate after single and multiple doses to beagle dogs.

Objective - The purpose of this study was to determine the oral bioavailability and pharmacokinetics of a glucosamine (GL) and the disaccharides of chondroitin sulfate (CS) after single and multiple-dosing of a GL/CS combination (CosaminR*, CosequinR*). Methods - Male beagle dogs (n = 8, 12 kg) received the following treatments: (1) IV GL (500 mg)/CS (400 mg), (2) p.o. GL (1500 mg)/CS (1200 mg), (3) p.o. GL (2000 mg)/CS (1600 mg), (4) p.o. GL (1500 mg)/CS (1200 mg) QD for days 1-7 and p.o. GL (3000 mg)/CS (2400 mg) from days 8 to 14. Blood samples were collected over 24 h and glucosamine and the disaccharides of chondroitin sulfate were determined. Pharmacokinetic analysis was performed on glucosamine and total chondroitin sulfate disaccharides and parameters were compared across treatments using ANOVA with post hoc analysis. Result - After the IV administration, glucosamine declined rapidly in a bi-exponential fashion with a mean ( ± S.D.) elimination t1/2 of 0.52 (0.25) h. GL absorption was relatively fast (Cmax = 8.95 g/ml, and Tmax 1.5 h after 1500 mg dose) and the mean bioavailability of glucosamine after single dosing was approximately 12%. The extent of absorption of chondroitin sulfate as indicated by the mean Cmax (21.5 g/ml) and mean AUC (187 g/ml h) of total disaccharides after dosing (1600 mg) provides evidence that chondroitin sulfate is absorbed orally. The bioavailability of CS ranged from 4.8 to 5.0% after single dosing and 200-278% upon multiple dosing. Conclusion - The results of this study show that both glucosamine and chondroitin sulfate (measured as total disaccharides) are bioavailable after oral dosing. *In addition, the low molecular weight chondroitin sulfate used in this study displays significant accumulation upon multiple dosing*_


----------



## SaltyDog (Mar 10, 2010)

since we are copying and pasting sources....here is one from Dr. Fox :smile:


_Buck Mountain Botanicals, Inc.
HC 30
Miles City, MT 59301
(406) 232-1185 &#150; phone
(406) 232-4491 &#150; fax
8-16-06

Glucosamine Sulfate for Joint Health
The Real Thing

Glucosamine is a natural product of importance in veterinary medicine. It is
found in abundance in the shell of shrimp. It is not a complex substance and
is easily available as a nutrient when ingested. Glucosamine is necessary to
provide a cushion between bones where they meet. Further, it stimulates the
synthesis of glycosaminoglycans (GAG). It also supports the incorporation
of necessary sulfur into cartilage.

Glucosamine sulfate is an effective anti-inflammatory alternative to
nonsteroidal anti-inflammatory drugs (e.g. Rimadyl, Etogesic, Deramaxx).
It provides the raw material necessary to repair arthritic joints. Licorice used
with glucosamine sulfate for arthritis is effective. Glucosamine sulfate
works! Five to ten days of treatment and results are apparent.
If painful arthritis is present double the dosage on the label for one week
then decrease to the recommended daily dosage. After symptoms disappear
use one half the recommended dosage as a geriatric supplement.

Beware of substitutes:

There are a lot of joint products, which are no more than concoctions, on the
market. There always is someone who will come up with some farce and
put enough hype in the air to sell it to someone. At the North American
Veterinary Conference (January 2006) I noted dozens of products being
promoted for joint health. Nearly all of them are overpriced mixtures of
substances that have little, if any, positive effect on arthritis or joint health.
One of these contained nearly equal preparations of chondroitin sulfate,
methylsulfonylmethane, glucosamine hydrachloride and glucosamine
sulfate. This joint &#147;formula&#148; had a catchy name and was expensive.
The young man attending the exhibit announced that it had &#147;all the good
stuff in it&#148; and asked me what I thought. I told him if he took out the
methylsulfonylmethane, the chondroitin sulfate and the glucosamine
hydrachloride and replaced them with lawn clippings that the resultant
mixture with the glucosamine sulfate and lawn clippings would be just as
effective for joint health because of the glucosamine sulfate, it would have
nutritional value because of the lawn clippings and it would be a lot less
expensive because methylsulfonylmethane, chondroitin sulfate and
glucosamine hydrachloride were removed!

• Methylsulfonylmethane (MSM)
• Chondroitin Sulfate (CS)
• Glucosamine Hydrachloride (GHCl)
• N-acetyl-D-glucosamine (NAG)
• Mixtures of these.

All of these are inferior to unadulterated glucosamine sulfate.
There are over 300 studies on glucosamine sulfate lauding its laurels. Those
on MSM, NAG, CS and GHCl are negative or published, largely unrefereed
by those wishing to sell their products.

The facts are:

1. Chondroitin sulfate is a huge molecule, molecular weight is
approximately 50,000. Its bio-availability is near zero, no more than
13% by the most favorable report. There are those that argue that they
have low weight chondroitin and therefore it is more available. Avoid
their product for there is but one molecular weight in chemistry not a
high and a low. If they believe there is such a thing they are ignorant.
If they know better they are being dishonest.

2. Chondroitin sulfate is expensive.

3. Glucosamine hydrachloride is moderately effective but is not as bioavailable
as glucosamine sulfate and it is more expensive. Recent
press has reported Glucosamine hydrachloride to be no better than
placebo.

4. There is no, absolutely no, convincing evidence that MSM is
effective. It appears that MSM is only a catchy name that has gained
a following.

5. N-acetyl-D-glucosamine (NAG) has no advantage over glucosamine
sulfate.

6. The mixtures of these things are only mixtures of things that are
expensive, don&#146;t work well and if mixed with glucosamine sulfate
make it more expensive and the efficacy of the mixtures is less than
that of glucosamine sulfate alone.

7. Glucosamine sulfate bio-availability is 90% to 98%. Glucosamine
sulfate is the preferred form and is the least expensive.
Some researchers/authors are so down on everything but glucosamine sulfate
that they deny that glucosamine hydrachloride has any merit whatsoever.
From the literature and personal experience with horses and dogs, I believe
that glucosamine sulfate is clearly the star and other concoctions are just that concoctions.

Terrence S. Fox, Ph.D.
President
Buck Mountain Botanicals_


----------



## buddy97 (Mar 29, 2010)

im trying to reference actual studies, not statements put out by the president of a botanicals company.

naturally occurring chondroitin sulfate, which is widely distributed in animal tissues, has a molecular weight of 50,000 to 100,000 Da (Daltons).

low molecular weight chondroitin sulfate has a lower molecular weight, ~16,900 Da

with Daltons being measure of molecular weight or mass, im still not understanding the statement that there is no such thing as low molecular weight chondroitin.
there are all types of studies that refer to the greater bioavailability of lower molecular weight chondroitin sulfate vs standard molecular weight chondroitin sulfate.

at the risk of offending anyone, here is a link to a study (and some more pasting)

_http://www.ana-jana.org/reprints/EddingtonStudy.pdf

*It has been shown that low molecular
weight chondroitin sulfate has a superior kinetic profile
than high molecular weight*.39 The *molecular weight as well
as the molecular composition of chondroitin sulfate are
dependent upon the species and/or tissue of origin and may
be affected by the extraction method.39*_


----------



## chowder (Sep 7, 2008)

buddy97 said:


> im trying to reference actual studies, not statements put out by the president of a botanicals company.
> 
> naturally occurring chondroitin sulfate, which is widely distributed in animal tissues, has a molecular weight of 50,000 to 100,000 Da (Daltons).
> 
> ...


Very interesting read. Now I have to research the vitamins that I am giving my 13 year old Lhasa....although they are more for the extra B vitamins then for the Glucosamine. I love it when people post links to actual science research articles!


----------



## SaltyDog (Mar 10, 2010)

Here is another study. This one is saying chondroitin is useless and that Glucosamine is heading that way as well.....but there are three differenct types of Glucosamine.


http://www.quackwatch.com/01QuackeryRelatedTopics/DSH/glucosamine.html


I'll keep looking for all these studies I've found in the past on Glucosamine over Chondroitin.

I believe though....it's going to be one of those topics that ends up being which is better, Chevy or Ford.....Sea Doo or Yamaha....East Coast or West Coast....you get the idea :wink:


----------



## buddy97 (Mar 29, 2010)

SaltyDog said:


> Here is another study. This one is saying chondroitin is useless and that Glucosamine is heading that way as well.....but there are three differenct types of Glucosamine.
> 
> 
> Glucosamine and Chondroitin for Arthritis: Benefit is Unlikely
> ...


yes, these are based on human studies. you should find the canine studies that have appeared more promising in regards to glucosamine combined with low molecular weigh chondroitin (yes, there is such a thing). 

while humans can, and do, respond to the perceived benefit of glucosamine/chondroitin supplements on joint pain (even if they are in reality doing nothing to relieve the pain), canines are not capable of having a placebo like response to something even if it isnt really relieving their joint discomfort. if there are noticeable, measurable improvements in a canine it cannot be attributable to any placebo effect. 

you can tell grandma, "here take this supplement, it will decrease your pain." she may perceive less pain and may even limp less because of that, even if pharmacalogically that pill does nothing for pain.

if you give fido a supplement and after a month his limping subsides, it has nothing to do with that power of suggestion.

gee, are we off the topic far enough now


----------



## RawFedDogs (Jun 16, 2008)

buddy97 said:


> while humans can, and do, respond to the perceived benefit of glucosamine/chondroitin supplements on joint pain (even if they are in reality doing nothing to relieve the pain), canines are not capable of having a placebo like response to something even if it isnt really relieving their joint discomfort. if there are noticeable, measurable improvements in a canine it cannot be attributable to any placebo effect.


Oh yes ... placebo is very common in dogs. Well not actually in the dog, rather the owner. _"I THINK his limp is not as bad as it was 6 months ago." "He SEEMS to feel a lot better." "I THINK that medicine is helping him. He SEEMS to not feel as bad." _

We had 2 goldens with bad hips several years ago. My wife swore that glucosimine helped them. I couldn't see any change. I WANTED to see change but just couldn't.

One of my present Danes, 10 yo ABBY, walks with a limp in one of her hind legs. She has been on 6,000mg/day of glucosimine for close to 2 years. She still has the limp. I see no change. My wife thinks she is better.



There is not a good test to measure how severe a particular pain is in a dog.



> if you give fido a supplement and after a month his limping subsides, it has nothing to do with that power of suggestion.


It may have nothing to do with the supplement either. It may have just gotten better on its own.



> gee, are we off the topic far enough now


Nahhh ... that never happens around here. :smile:


----------



## buddy97 (Mar 29, 2010)

RawFedDogs said:


> Oh yes ... placebo is very common in dogs. Well not actually in the dog, rather the owner. _"I THINK his limp is not as bad as it was 6 months ago." "He SEEMS to feel a lot better." "I THINK that medicine is helping him. He SEEMS to not feel as bad." _
> 
> :


which is why i discount studies where the results are owner reported. i have no doubt folks may see some improvement because they want to see improvement. 

but a study that involves an odjective reporter i would consider reliable. there are certainly measurable things as well. a dog that cannot climb stairs who, when on a particular supplement for a month, can climb the stairs. or limps noticeably, but no longer limps at all. these things arent even subject to interpretation, except to allow for other factors in the dogs improvement.

i had a 11 yr old mix who for two years could not walk more than 1/4 mile before laying down, usually whimpering. 6 weeks on cosequin ds and he was taking 2 mile walks with the other 2 dogs. a pretty dramatic turnaround, and something that was somewhat measurable. so i tend to lean toward the camp that believes the right supplements may work for some dogs.


----------



## RawFedDogs (Jun 16, 2008)

buddy97 said:


> i had a 11 yr old mix who for two years could not walk more than 1/4 mile before laying down, usually whimpering. 6 weeks on cosequin ds and he was taking 2 mile walks with the other 2 dogs. a pretty dramatic turnaround, and something that was somewhat measurable. so i tend to lean toward the camp that believes the right supplements may work for some dogs.


That IS impressive. I have no problems with the right supplement for a particular health problem. HOWEVER, most of the supplements are snake oil. I still give Abby 6,000mg of glucosimine daily even thought I can't see any reason to continue it. I just hope it makes her feel better.


----------



## CorgiPaws (Mar 31, 2009)

On the topic of supplements: 
I don't think that they work for all dogs. In fact, I think they DONT work for more dogs than they do. 
That being said, I think that the right supplement for the right dog can in fact work wonders... and in most cases they certainly aren't going to do any harm, so why not try with no expectations?


----------



## Doc (Jan 17, 2009)

mrsboondox said:


> What breed of pups?


Large German shepherds:smile:


----------



## jdatwood (Apr 13, 2009)

buddy97 said:


> gee, are we off the topic far enough now





RawFedDogs said:


> Nahhh ... that never happens around here. :smile:


Apparently it's against the rules now. You should watch yourself Bill


----------

