# Confused About Vet/Breeder Requirments



## tcmarkley (Jul 11, 2010)

Hey guys...I'm new to the boards but found it about a week before picking up my new chocolate lab. 

Before picking her up today I was convinced Orijen Large Breed Puppy would be the best kibble for the new 8 week old pup. The breeder (who is also a vet) offers a guarantee but only if I continue to feed her Eukanuba Puppy Growth or Purina Pro Plan. She simply stated she has seen enough labs not do well on Orijen and that she doesn't think it does well with her dogs. Overall, she seems pretty health conscious. She also requires we maintain the supplement regimen of Missing Link and Glyco Flex.

What are everyone's thoughts?


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## Jacksons Mom (Jun 13, 2010)

I would definitely NOT feed Eukanuba or Purina over Orijen... maybe Orijen doesn't do well with her dogs, but there's plenty of other high quality foods that probably will. I could be totally wrong, but do breeders get some kind of free stuff or benefits for feeding Purina, etc? Would you have to purchase the food from her?


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## luvMyBRT (Mar 8, 2010)

I would have to agree. Eukanuba and Purina are some of the lowest quality kibbles you could feed. Maybe Orijen is too rich for some of her Labs, but there are far better grain free kibbles you could feed. Would she be okay with another higher quality kibble other than Orijen?


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## luvMyBRT (Mar 8, 2010)

I got to thinking. I'm not too sure how many grain free large breed puppy foods there are....Orijen is the only one I know of right now. Still, there are many other kibbles out there that would be far superior to Eukanuba or Purina.


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## SaltyDog (Mar 10, 2010)

The others have already told you about the food. I personally would not feed Eukanuba or Purina either. I'm not interested in my money back on a dog, I'm interested in her living a full eventful life 

Now for the supplements.

First...Glycoflex is made with Glucosimine HCI NOT Glucosomine Sulfate. Glucosomine Sulfate is what you want. Everything else "masks" issues or has no proven effect to work such as MSM, Chondroitin Sulfate, Gluco HCI, Gluco ND.

Your new puppy has no issues with joints or arithritis at this time, so what you are doing is preventative maintenance. For that, my personal recomendation is CanEVA Elk Velvet Antler. CanEVA - Home

Second....Missing Link contains questionable ingredients such as rice bran, yeast, beef liver and dried fish solubles. It is reflective in the price.

A waaaaaaay better whole foods supplement would be Wholistic Canine Complete or Animal Essentials Herbal Multi-Vitamin.

Again, this is only my opinion


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## DaneMama (Jun 27, 2008)

What is the health guarantee exactly? And you have to ask yourself, would you want another puppy from this breeder *if* there was any genetic problems with the first puppy?

Personally I would feed a better food than the crap they are suggesting. How is the breeder supposed to know what you feed exaclty? I know that lying is not the right thing to do but in this case, couldn't you just say that you will feed it and feed something else instead???


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## rannmiller (Jun 27, 2008)

SaltyDog said:


> First...Glycoflex is made with Glucosimine HCI NOT Glucosomine Sulfate. Glucosomine Sulfate is what you want. Everything else "masks" issues or has no proven effect to work such as MSM, Chondroitin Sulfate, Gluco HCI, Gluco ND.


I would tend to agree with you but I take a supplement with glucosamine sulfate, chondroitin sulfate, and MSM and it has really helped more than when i was just taking glucosamine and chondroitin. So I tend to believe that a combo of the three works best. *shrug* maybe that's just me though. 



SaltyDog said:


> Your new puppy has no issues with joints or arithritis at this time, so what you are doing is preventative maintenance. For that, my personal recomendation is CanEVA Elk Velvet Antler. CanEVA - Home
> 
> Chicken feet, or any regular hip/joint supplement will work just as well. Why the heck does this breeder need so many supplements to keep her puppies healthy if her precious Eukanuba works so well anyway? _That's_ a question to ask her!
> 
> ...


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## MollyWoppy (Mar 19, 2010)

> Personally I would feed a better food than the crap they are suggesting. How is the breeder supposed to know what you feed exaclty? I know that lying is not the right thing to do but in this case, couldn't you just say that you will feed it and feed something else instead???


Exactly what I would be inclined to do........


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## harrkim120 (Feb 2, 2010)

Jacksons Mom said:


> I could be totally wrong, but do breeders get some kind of free stuff or benefits for feeding Purina, etc?


Some do. We see people coming into Petsmart all the time with coupons for free bags or checks to be reimbursed on food from the companies. I had someone with a Rhodesian Ridgeback take one of my classes and their breeder made them sign a contract stating that they would only feed the puppy Eukanuba until he was six months old. Their breeder was getting ALL of their food for free from the company. 



danemama08 said:


> I know that lying is not the right thing to do but in this case, couldn't you just say that you will feed it and feed something else instead???


I also agree. :biggrin:


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## CorgiPaws (Mar 31, 2009)

tcmarkley said:


> Before picking her up today I was convinced Orijen Large Breed Puppy would be the best kibble for the new 8 week old pup. The breeder (who is also a vet) offers a guarantee but only if I continue to feed her Eukanuba Puppy Growth or Purina Pro Plan.


Go with what you KNOW is best. Keep in mind that vets tend to be the WORST source of nutritional information. They don't get much training on it at all, and the training they DO get is from the big box dog food companies. To put it lightly, the breeder you went with simply does not have faith in her breeding program to have such a silly clause in the contract. 



tcmarkley said:


> Overall, she seems pretty health conscious. She also requires we maintain the supplement regimen of Missing Link and Glyco Flex.


Being a vet, I imagine she would be... but there comes a point where you're not just conscious, you're going totally overboard with misinformation. I am not one bit surprised this breeder is a vet.



tcmarkley said:


> What are everyone's thoughts?


I would forget her stupid contract. What good is it anyway?? If the puppy gets sick do you really want a replacement? If he gets hip dysplasia do you really want to "return" him for your money back?? This is a breeder that I would definitely no go back to, because she clearly has no understanding of the basics of canine nutrition. Generally clauses like this in contracts are because breeders want to provide themselves several possible outlets to not have to hold the contract. I'd be interested to know what other terms are in the contract. 




That being said, congratulations on the new puppy. :biggrin:


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## Guest (Jul 13, 2010)

CorgiPaws - would you have an issue with a breeder that has a clause in the contract about feeding RAW to the pups? (I doubt it.) Didn't you say yourself that if you became a breeder you would do that? I do know of breeders who request (or require) that their pups be fed RAW or this / that brand of kibble. It's actually commonplace, it doesn't make them a bad breeder. It shows that they truly care about the health and well-being of their pups.


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## dobesgalore (Oct 21, 2009)

Is the food the only guarentee she gives? What about genetic health guarentees? That is what I would be most concerend about. The food is not going to prevent genetic problems, so if those are their you wouldn't want another puppy from her anyway. I am sure she probably gets some sort of compensation from Eukanuba being that she is a breeder and a vet. Vets endorse Eukanuba as it is. If it were me, I would go ahead and feed whatever food you feel is best for your dog.


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## CorgiPaws (Mar 31, 2009)

LabbieMama said:


> CorgiPaws - would you have an issue with a breeder that has a clause in the contract about feeding RAW to the pups? (I doubt it.) Didn't you say yourself that if you became a breeder you would do that? I do know of breeders who request (or require) that their pups be fed RAW or this / that brand of kibble. It's actually commonplace, it doesn't make them a bad breeder. It shows that they truly care about the health and well-being of their pups.


I don't have an issue with breeders that have *educated* clauses in their contracts... but to require an absolute junk food, simply because they are ignorant OR getting kickbacks from a certain company, which I know for a fact Eukanuba and Pro Plan have breeder programs for free food/ discounted pallets. 

Now, if I were a breeder, and had *minimum* requirements on the QUALITY of food I fed, I certainly would have *NO* problem with owners who want to go above and beyond. For example, I've heard of many Boxer breeders requiring GRAIN FREE feeding, which foods like Canidae GF and TOTW would satisfy... but if someone wants to feed an EVEN BETTER grain free food, like Evo or Orijen, then it's absolutely silly to deny them that. 

Requiring that one feeds Eukanuba does NOT show that they care about the health of their dogs at all!! It shows that they have yet to care enough to actually seek information and knowledge for themselves, AND that they really want those breeder kickbacks from the dog food companies. I'd be willing to put my money on it that this breeder/vet carries these foods in his/her office for sale, too.

ETA: I did not say that I *would* require it. I said I'm considering the possibility. I KNOW the dangers of commercial feeding, and feel that it is not good enough for my puppies, and because I KNOW and have SEEN FIRSTHAND these serious issues with my own Corgis. This is not the place for this debate, and I'm not going to get into it, because every time a kibble feeder brings up raw, and raw feeders respond, everyone gets mad about this forum being SO "pro-raw." I have not come to a conclusion about this for when I breed. I feel strongly about it, and also feel that this is EXACTLY why breeder and buyer need to be on the same page. A "breed x" might be the perfect dog for your lifestyle and family, but every "breed x" breeder isn't going to be a match. And for the whole contract to be totally null based on feeding is the stupidest thing I've ever heard. Certain aspects, maybe.. but the entire contract, no.


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## SaltyDog (Mar 10, 2010)

rannmiller said:


> I would tend to agree with you but I take a supplement with glucosamine sulfate, chondroitin sulfate, and MSM and it has really helped more than when i was just taking glucosamine and chondroitin. So I tend to believe that a combo of the three works best. *shrug* maybe that's just me though.



By Terrence S. Fox, Ph.D.


• Methylsulfonylmethane (MSM)
• Chondroitin Sulfate (CS)
• Glucosamine Hydrachloride (GHCl)
• N-acetyl-D-glucosamine (NAG)
• Mixtures of these.

All of these are inferior to unadulterated glucosamine sulfate.

There are over 300 studies on glucosamine sulfate lauding its laurels. Those
on MSM, NAG, CS and GHCl are negative or published, largely unrefereed
by those wishing to sell their products.

The facts are:
1. Chondroitin sulfate is a huge molecule, molecular weight is
approximately 50,000. Its bio-availability is near zero, no more than
13% by the most favorable report. There are those that argue that they
have low weight chondroitin and therefore it is more available. Avoid
their product for there is but one molecular weight in chemistry not a
high and a low. If they believe there is such a thing they are ignorant.
If they know better they are being dishonest.

2. Chondroitin sulfate is expensive.

3. Glucosamine hydrachloride is moderately effective but is not as bioavailable
as glucosamine sulfate and it is more expensive. Recent
press has reported Glucosamine hydrachloride to be no better than
placebo.

4. There is no, absolutely no, convincing evidence that MSM is
effective. It appears that MSM is only a catchy name that has gained
a following.

5. N-acetyl-D-glucosamine (NAG) has no advantage over glucosamine
sulfate.

6. The mixtures of these things are only mixtures of things that are
expensive, don&#146;t work well and if mixed with glucosamine sulfate
make it more expensive and the efficacy of the mixtures is less than
that of glucosamine sulfate alone.

7. Glucosamine sulfate bio-availability is 90% to 98%. Glucosamine
sulfate is the preferred form and is the least expensive.
Some researchers/authors are so down on everything but glucosamine sulfate
that they deny that glucosamine hydrachloride has any merit whatsoever.
From the literature and personal experience with horses and dogs, I believe
that glucosamine sulfate is clearly the star and other concoctions are just that....concoctions.


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## kevin bradley (Aug 9, 2009)

Glucosomine is about as unproven as Colon Cleansing. 

Sure, Purina and Eukanuba over Orijen. 

Sure. 

What a joke. I'm not even sure how to respond. 

Akin to someone saying the earth is flat and having to provide a rebuttal. It throws you for such loop you don't really even know what to say.


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## CorgiPaws (Mar 31, 2009)

kevin bradley said:


> Glucosomine is about as unproven as Colon Cleansing.


In trials, yes. 
I saw improvement in my GSD with glucosamine supplementation. I didn't think it would work at all, but it did help, to my surprise. 
That being said, I have the same result with giving him raw chicken feet.


ETA: I don't see glucosamine as an absolute wonder product, I've hear more cases of it not working than actually working, BUT, I'd say it's worth a shot if you have a dog with joint pain, and that it *might* help some dogs.


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## Animal Quackers (Jul 10, 2010)

CorgiPaws said:


> In trials, yes.
> I saw improvement in my GSD with glucosamine supplementation. I didn't think it would work at all, but it did help, to my surprise.


I am not here to debate, but all I can say on the topic of glucosamine and chondroitin is that it took the pain away from my 17+ year old cat. She cried every time she moved until we added the supplement, and she has not cried since...(approximately 2 years)

Not debating, just stating my single experience with the supplement.


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## jeserf (Oct 20, 2009)

All I'm sayin' is that the shelter doesn't care what you feed your dog once you adopt!


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## tcmarkley (Jul 11, 2010)

I really appreciate everybody's response. 

This whole debate with her has just been really strange. I can't imagine how feeding my pup a higher quality food would void the guarantee. To me it just sounds like she needs to be educated. I did ask for clarification about what she meant about it not doing well with her dogs and all she had to say is if I was able to trust them enough for a puppy that I should assume they feed the very best food available. She did not offer any specific examples. I'm also not the kind of person to assume anything. I always take the time to do my own research. This is not a backyard operation either. They are a well respected breeder known for producing champion hunting retrivers.

Bottom line is the pup is going on Orijen LBP.


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## luvMyBRT (Mar 8, 2010)

tcmarkley said:


> Bottom line is the pup is going on Orijen LBP.



:biggrin::biggrin::biggrin:


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## Guest (Jul 14, 2010)

CorgiPaws said:


> .... but to require an absolute junk food, simply because they are ignorant OR getting kickbacks from a certain company, which I know for a fact Eukanuba and Pro Plan have breeder programs for free food/ discounted pallets.


Many breeders participate in the same Frequent Buyer program that ordinary pet owners do. The breeders that I have met and know do not get any kickbacks from dog food companies at all. Matter of fact, some of them are barely making ends meet. Being a reputable breeder who truly cares about improving the breed is a labor of love.




CorgiPaws said:


> Requiring that one feeds Eukanuba does NOT show that they care about the health of their dogs at all!!


The breeder must have seen good results from feeding a certain brand and so recommends that brand to puppy buyers. I do know of many breeders who feed and recommend a certain brand because they've seen good results, they like how the dogs perform on it.

I am not going to discuss this any further with someone who "knows everything" . I think the OP got the info that was requested.


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## CorgiPaws (Mar 31, 2009)

LabbieMama said:


> The breeders that I have met and know do not get any kickbacks from dog food companies at all. Matter of fact, some of them are barely making ends meet. Being a reputable breeder who truly cares about improving the breed is a labor of love.


Right, and I'm telling you that both Eukanuba (and Pro Plan) and maybe others that I'm unaware of, have breeder programs and DO give kickbacks. Owning a dog business, we get their promotional crap in the mail all the time. Every reputable breeder I know does not make money off of it, that's entirely off topic and has nothing to do with this. 




LabbieMama said:


> The breeder must have seen good results from feeding a certain brand and so recommends that brand to puppy buyers. I do know of many breeders who feed and recommend a certain brand because they've seen good results, they like how the dogs perform on it.


Here's how I see it: if you love dogs enough to dedicate yourself to proper breeding, wouldn't one think that said individual would love dogs enough to educate themselves on any and every aspect of their behavior, health, and well being? It makes sense to me. 



LabbieMama said:


> I am not going to discuss this any further with someone who "knows everything" . I think the OP got the info that was requested.


Well, the OP asked my opinion, and I gave my opinion. It's MINE and I am entitled to it. Sorry that the fact I have an opinion offends you. I'm not going to tiptoe my way around people who can't handle the fact that I might disagree with them. So, go right on ahead and be mad, makes no difference to me. I find it quite comical to be honest, considering I not once said anything about you and you're ticked off, but thanks for the insult. I never said that I know everything. By the way, insulting other members is against forum rules. Play nice.


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## harrkim120 (Feb 2, 2010)

Geez...everyone does have short tempers around here lately. Is it the heat or something?


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## whiteleo (Sep 7, 2008)

I haven't really read through completely word for word, but I will say that breeders do get an (incentive) to push a certain type of food on their clients especially if it is a brand of food that is a regularly SPONSORED brand at major AKC shows.

The head rescue and I have been wanting to have a "nutritional seminar" within our club especially to those members who believe the hype of breeders that they have bought from say in CA who swear by Purina Pro plan, but wonder why their dogs get all these bumps on their skin and sometimes are bald in certain spots, but say that their breeder/handler says they have to feed Purina, you'd really think they would be smarter than that, but it is the dog show world.

All potential rescue adopters are all given a list of potential foods that are acceptable to feed their new dog.


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## meggels (May 30, 2010)

I'm working for/living with a frenchie breeder right now who doesn't participate in any sort of program. The only discount she gets is from the local feed store (that carries high quality food), she only gets 10% off her purchase each time for being a breeder. She feeds Nature's Variety prairie (and some raw to the more troublesome frenchies lol). When I got my boy, I asked for tips on frenchie nutrition and she said to stay away from anything with corn, wheat or by products lol.

And yeah, being a responsible breeder is totally a labor of love. Phew, it's tiring, time consuming, and costs MONEY! But there are the good breeders out there!


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## whiteleo (Sep 7, 2008)

Yes, there are many responsible breeders out there! My breed inparticular that has many issues with allergies/skin problems has many breeders that start puppies on a raw diet, and then you have those that push the Purina Pro plan, and I believe those are the ones that do it for the incentives. And the sad thing is when they do good in the ring, people always look at what they are feeding their dogs.


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## kevin bradley (Aug 9, 2009)

I'd have more forgiveness for Breeder's and Vets who recommend Iams and Eukanuba and Science Diet...but for one very small issue....


it takes about 1 minute of research on Google to realize those foods suck. Seriously, I may even be high on that number. Literally SECONDS and you have a consensus of information that they are horrible foods. 


Very, very hard to understand if they really believe what they are saying. I would understand it more if they just admitted they do it for the money/kickbacks from the Sales Reps.


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## Guest (Jul 15, 2010)

whiteleo said:


> ..... All potential rescue adopters are all given a list of potential foods that are acceptable to feed their new dog.


I've spent the past 4+ years fostering and volunteering for Labrador Rescue here in CT. I help develop the list of quality kibble for new adopters to feed their Labs. Unfortunately the list didn't stop adopters from buying Purina or Iams simply because it was available and/or cheaper for them to do so. Sad but true.


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## cprcheetah (Jul 14, 2010)

tcmarkley said:


> Bottom line is the pup is going on Orijen LBP.


Good for you! My sister just purchased a Standard Poodle show puppy and has a lifetime health guarantee IF and ONLY if she purchases Nuvet vitamin supplements for the first 2 years of the dogs life....simply because the breeder gets a check from the company for every bottle sold through her. She had a schnauzer with the same issue, a 5 year guarantee if and only if he was on the nuvet vitamins, she kept him on the vitamins, he died at 5 & 1/2 years due to heart disease.... I know there are breeder programs for many foods out there. It simply sounds that she just hasn't educated herself enough in the dog food department. My vet (also my father) has been in practice for 40 years, he says that I know more about dog & cat nutrition than he does, he asks for my recommendations on what to feed his dogs and I am pleased to say he doesn't feed nor recommend science diet, royal canin, purina or eukanuba, any longer. It took quite a bit to convince him but once I 'educated' him he agreed that those foods are just lacking in quality and proper nutrients for dogs and cats.


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## harrkim120 (Feb 2, 2010)

cprcheetah said:


> Good for you! My sister just purchased a Standard Poodle show puppy and has a lifetime health guarantee IF and ONLY if she purchases Nuvet vitamin supplements for the first 2 years of the dogs life....simply because the breeder gets a check from the company for every bottle sold through her. She had a schnauzer with the same issue, a 5 year guarantee if and only if he was on the nuvet vitamins, she kept him on the vitamins, he died at 5 & 1/2 years due to heart disease.... I know there are breeder programs for many foods out there. It simply sounds that she just hasn't educated herself enough in the dog food department. My vet (also my father) has been in practice for 40 years, he says that I know more about dog & cat nutrition than he does, he asks for my recommendations on what to feed his dogs and I am pleased to say he doesn't feed nor recommend science diet, royal canin, purina or eukanuba, any longer. It took quite a bit to convince him but once I 'educated' him he agreed that those foods are just lacking in quality and proper nutrients for dogs and cats.


Nice. :biggrin: One vet at a time. :biggrin:


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## xxshaelxx (Mar 8, 2010)

cprcheetah said:


> Good for you! My sister just purchased a Standard Poodle show puppy and has a lifetime health guarantee IF and ONLY if she purchases Nuvet vitamin supplements for the first 2 years of the dogs life....simply because the breeder gets a check from the company for every bottle sold through her.


My "breeder" has that in her guarantee. She offers an eight year guarantee on the dog's life (for natural causes), and a lifetime guarantee for hip dysplasia or eye cataracts. I've already dropped the vitamins, because I have all three of them on raw, and there's no need for supplements. That'd just be over-supplementing them.


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## tcmarkley (Jul 11, 2010)

Does everyone think it's beneficial to supplement the Orijen with a glucosamine sulfate? What else does my lab need? Trying to give her the best!


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