# Supplementing with kibble.



## SamWu1 (Oct 15, 2010)

The rescue found a wonderful family for my foster but unfortunately, they aren't keen on the idea of feeding raw. I tried showing them links, videos, etc. but they're just not quite ready to take the plunge.

They're the traditional old school, Purina feeders so they're used to spending $20.00 a month on dog food. Thankfully after some counseling, I was able to educate them on pet food and we selected TOTW for its affordability and bang for the buck.

I just hate the thought of feeding nothing but dry doom nuggets (No offense kibble feeders :tape so I'm trying to recommend some additions to add some digestive enzymes back into her meals.

They don't want to add meat either cooked or raw so I was thinking perhaps some plain yogurt, plain cottage cheese and they seem to be ok with raw eggs. What other food items does everyone suggest?


----------



## whiteleo (Sep 7, 2008)

Personally someone who isn't that open minded wouldn't even be a candidate for one of our rescues! Just sayin! If they aren't willing to spend money on food then whose to say they have money for vet bills if something were to happen. We wouldn't even consider them.


----------



## KC23 (Nov 17, 2010)

Maybe they would at least consider mixing in a small amount of a good quality canned food each day to the dry food. Just a thought....


----------



## Serendipity (Aug 13, 2010)

For probiotics, I personally prefer acidophilus pills over cottage cheese/plain yogurt. Fish oil is great, too; Taste of the Wild doesn't seem very high in omega 3's. I usually give a 1200 mg capsule daily. I know it's additional meat, but what about canned food? There are many high quality, reasonably priced canned foods, like Whole Earth Farms, Taste of the Wild, etc. By Nature's 95% meat cans aren't too pricey, either. Are they at least going to add water to the kibble? 

Also, I haven't done that much research about raw, but I know it isn't great to mix cooked food (like kibble) with raw, because they digest at different rates and the raw meat can spoil in your dogs system. Wouldn't that be the same with a raw egg, or is the amount just too little to count?  Please forgive my ignorance! 

I just remembered: Costco.com has wild Alaskan salmon oil with added probiotics! $40 for 64 oz, I believe. That might be a good option.


----------



## monkeys23 (Dec 8, 2010)

Raw egg with kibble doesn't seem to be a problem.

Plain yoghurt, cottage cheese, egg are all great. How about any meat trim, like gristly parts, off of their human dinner? Preferably before cooking of course. :wink:


----------



## SamWu1 (Oct 15, 2010)

whiteleo said:


> Personally someone who isn't that open minded wouldn't even be a candidate for one of our rescues! Just sayin! If they aren't willing to spend money on food then whose to say they have money for vet bills if something were to happen. We wouldn't even consider them.


They're just completely ignorant to nutrition. They spent thousands on their previous dog which suffered from cancer so I don't think they're cheap, just need some educating.


----------



## talon (Feb 2, 2011)

I buy big cans of tuna at Costco...put the liquid in a seperate container and divide the tuna into small containers and freeze. I give my dogs a good heaping teaspoon of the tuna and 1-2 tsp of the juice (canned in water). Their fur is amazing now...with the added benefit of the omega 3's. Super cheap and healthy. 1 huge can is about 7.00 and lasts about one month. I also add in green beans (also bought in bulk at Costco), and sometimes carrots.

Green beans are very low in calories and good for them.

Hope that helps!


----------



## _Trish (Jan 31, 2011)

You have to be careful about where that tuna comes from, because a lot of times there is mercury present in Tuna, and it can end up being harmful to the dog. 

Cottage cheese or yogurt are good additions, like you mentioned. As far as probiotics I use Probiavi but I special order it from Canada (I'm in the US), so they probably aren't open to that. Fish oil and coconut oil are really good -- the dosage is 300mg per 10 lbs. of body weight. I use coconut oil as well, not sure on the dosage, I just use 1 tsp for everybody.


----------



## PUNKem733 (Jun 12, 2009)

talon said:


> I buy big cans of tuna at Costco...put the liquid in a seperate container and divide the tuna into small containers and freeze. I give my dogs a good heaping teaspoon of the tuna and 1-2 tsp of the juice (canned in water). Their fur is amazing now...with the added benefit of the omega 3's. Super cheap and healthy. 1 huge can is about 7.00 and lasts about one month. I also add in green beans (also bought in bulk at Costco), and sometimes carrots.
> 
> Green beans are very low in calories and good for them.
> 
> Hope that helps!


Green beans and carrots are not good for them...they're nothing to them. If they like it fine, as it does no harm, but dogs DO NOT get any nutritional value out of anything other than meat, bones, and organs. Anything else is filler.


----------



## whiteleo (Sep 7, 2008)

I know it really is a moot point but usually when someone has a dog going through cancer treatments that really is when they start looking at what they have been feeding their dog/dogs. So it looks like they didn't even do ANY kind of researching whatsoever!:tsk::tsk::tsk:


----------



## _Trish (Jan 31, 2011)

whiteleo said:


> I know it really is a moot point but usually when someone has a dog going through cancer treatments that really is when they start looking at what they have been feeding their dog/dogs. So it looks like they didn't even do ANY kind of researching whatsoever!:tsk::tsk::tsk:


Yeah, it's pretty shocking. My aunt has lost FOUR dogs due to cancer. She feeds, and has always fed Eukanuba. She listens to what her vet says when it comes to dog food. They treat their dogs well, and provide them with all the necessary veterinary care, but the food they feed is awful. I've given her SO much information, and she just tells me that her vet says otherwise, and that is who she trusts. She's an intelligent woman, so I just don't get it.


----------



## channeledbymodem (Dec 25, 2008)

Serendipity said:


> Also, I haven't done that much research about raw, but I know it isn't great to mix cooked food (like kibble) with raw, because they digest at different rates and the raw meat can spoil in your dogs system. Wouldn't that be the same with a raw egg, or is the amount just too little to count?  Please forgive my ignorance!


Kibbles are usually over-supplemented with vitamins and minerals, mainly because the "natural" food sources are often not too nutritious. So it's usually safe to add up to 25% cooked or raw meat to kibble without causing a calcium to phosphorus imbalance.

In my experience, and judging from dozens of posts on the subject I've read over the years, there is *no* problem adding either cooked or raw meat to kibble in modest proportions. Nature's Variety, one of the leading commercial proponents of a prepared raw diet, actually encourages the feeding of their raw foods with their kibble. I have combined raw ground turkey, lamb, and beef with kibble, as well as cooked chicken, without any problem whatsoever. Raw eggs are also just fine, in moderation.

I would hesitate to feed kibble and raw meaty bones in the same meal. Since I feed twice a day, I'd separate the kibble and bones by several hours. But the OP doesn't seem to be about to feed RMBs so I don't think there's an issue.

As for supplements, I think fish oil and pro-biotics are very useful. We prefer Sea Pet Fish Oil with Vitamin E and Dogzyme's digestive enhancer. I agree that yogurt, while a perfectly healthy and tasty food, does not provide enough live bacteria to make much of a difference. And the pro-biotics sprayed on to kibble are also ineffective. Dogzymes is very concentrated and very cost efficient, formulated by a long time breeder of Great Danes. Good stuff.


----------



## _Trish (Jan 31, 2011)

Yeah, I never understood that whole "don't mix raw with dry food" thing. I know that I myself eat raw things (like sushi, and I eat my steak rare) along with cooked food and have no digestive issues from it, and it takes a human much longer to digest what we consume compared to a dog.


----------



## channeledbymodem (Dec 25, 2008)

It occurred to me that the guideline of 25% raw or cooked meat to 75% kibble is vague. You can't go by weight because kibble, being very dry, is very "light." So I would base the amount on calories: 25% of calories raw and 75% calories kibble.

To figure out how many calories your dog needs: Dog Food Calculator

Most manufacturer websites post the calorie content of their foods. If they don't you can email them.

It's always better to feed by calories and rotate foods than to go by what's on the bag. I've found Benji needs *much* fewer calories than what is recommended.


----------



## Hadley (Jan 6, 2011)

I supplement yogurt, canned food, cooked chicken breast, fish oil, raw egg, or canned fish when i am feeding kibble. Sardines are a nice, easy way to get some real food into their kibble meals! 

I know the people here aren't big fans..but perhaps suggest some easy to feed pre-made raw like Nature's Variety medallions?? It's better than nothing...


----------



## doggiedad (Jan 23, 2011)

i feed kibble but it always have some
of the following in it:

can food, raw ground beef, can salmon (no salt added),
salmon oil, sardines (no salt added), veggies, rice,
raw egg (once or twice a week), cooked boneless and skinless
chicken breast, quinoa, millet, raw chicken backs, organic plain
yogurt, fruit (pears, apples, blueberries), table scraps (no seasoning),
fresh fish.


----------



## channeledbymodem (Dec 25, 2008)

Hadley said:


> I know the people here aren't big fans..but perhaps suggest some easy to feed pre-made raw like Nature's Variety medallions?? It's better than nothing...


The only thing I find wrong with NV raw is its cost. But I do think it's good food and I've been feeding it for some time now.


----------



## CavePaws (Jan 25, 2011)

_Trish said:


> Yeah, I never understood that whole "don't mix raw with dry food" thing. I know that I myself eat raw things (like sushi, and I eat my steak rare) along with cooked food and have no digestive issues from it, and it takes a human much longer to digest what we consume compared to a dog.


I've been wondering this myself for a reallllly long time. My dogs do fine on their raw and kibble diet. I seperate the meals, for sake of not upsetting their little tum tums...and so I can monitor poops to make sure I know what might upset their stomach if by chance one of them does have a problem with what they ate.

But why can we digest sushi with cooked foods, even greasy things like vegetable tempura, and be completely and totally fine on this. I've been eating sushi since I was a wee one and it's easily my favorite food of all time. No tummy aches for me.


----------



## CorgiPaws (Mar 31, 2009)

CavePaws said:


> But why can we digest sushi with cooked foods, even greasy things like vegetable tempura, and be completely and totally fine on this. I've been eating sushi since I was a wee one and it's easily my favorite food of all time. No tummy aches for me.


We are omnivores.
They are carnivores. 
One of the whole reasons they can handle large amount of raw meat with no issues is that they are designed, through and through, to digest it, utilize it, and pass it quickly.Kibble, on the other hand, digest very slow. Why? Dogs are not naturally designed to eat cooked foods at all, let alone unidentifiable nuggets of minimal meat, some grain, some veggies, and a crapload of supplements. Once you add that in, especially in the same meal as wholesome raw meats, you're essentially mucking up their gut with a mish mash of junk, and slowing down their naturally speedy digestive systems.


I'm entirely convinced that this is why we see salmonella and e coli in dogs now. Things that are naturally NOT an issue are because these things get trapped in their systems for soooooo long when feeiding an unnatural diet. I've NEVER heard of an exclusively raw fed dog getting either of these things. I have, however, heard of several kibble fed dogs, and I know of at least two first hand that did NV medallions and kibble together. 

Some people will mix raw and kibble forever and have no issues whatsoever.
Some people will feed pedigree and have dogs live to be 20.
Some people will give weight bearing bones and never have a dog break a tooth.


There is never a problem... until there is a problem. The potential is there to case a great deal of digestive upset, so why risk it when it's so easily avoidable?


----------



## CavePaws (Jan 25, 2011)

I doubt I'm doing my dogs any harm, but I guess it's something we can disagree on and I'll leave it at that. Indi had a full blood panel done the other day because she had to be put on medication, her blood work was completely fine and normal. I'll take my dogs small firm poops and blood work as testimony that I'm not doing anything wrong and am in fact doing something right. Also, if kibble takes around 15-20 hrs to digest, why not feed it later at night and meat in the afternoon so they are indeed separated and the meat has it's supposed 4 hr digestive period to run through the system.

I think the whole, 'dogs don't eat vegetables' is beside this point I'm trying to make, as many people include vegetables in their dogs diet feeding BARF. I do not personally include extra vegetables in my dogs food, as I think they probably get enough from the kibble that is included in their diet and I do agree, they aren't _necessary _components of your dogs diet. Maybe you don't agree with it because you feed PMR and think dogs are strictly carnivores. I think they are opportunistic scavengers and some can be efficient hunters, so if they were truly out in the wild with humans no where to be found, there really would be no need for vegetables or fruit if they are not starving to death like a lot are. Most dogs who are out in very rural areas with the ability to find human resources, like trash, will eat just about anything they think tastes good including vegetables from trash cans. Mind you, dogs have evolved with humans over the past 10,000 - 14,000 years, domesticated ones living off scraps from humans. I don't think dog kibble was very popular back in the 1700s, what about you? I don't think people were very informed about 'canine nutrition' back then either, though. I couldn't say what exactly they fed their dogs, but judging by what I've seen 'wild dogs' eat, they do include vegetable matter in their diet if it's there for them.

I said I can eat vegetable tempura while eating sushi, if we go by what you say about dogs being strictly carnivores, I have to ask, what if I'm eating only steak and sushi - which I've done before many times. Since this meal is made up of completely meat, what is the difference here between my stomach which takes longer to digest meat and theirs which takes a shorter amount of time?

I hardly think you can compare dogs on Purina to what I feed my dogs...And I've never heard of a dog living a 20 year life on that crud - especially being healthy! If people were to actually feed the amount of Purina that is suggested their dogs would be highly overweight and probably have a number of health problems.

Anyway, the point of this entire thing is: I think Kibble and Raw can go together fine if you let your dog adjust to it like any diet change. For what it's worth, if you're that freaking scared about your dog eating raw, cook it and give it to them. I'm not scared, I know _my _dogs can handle it just fine and are healthy.

editing to add/clarify: In no way am I saying dogs are Omnivores. They can't digest whole plant matter, which is what omnivores do. If it's pureed or cooked it's usable, I believe. Are the veggies that go into my dogs kibble cooked just like every other ingredient in there? I do believe so.


----------



## CavePaws (Jan 25, 2011)

Corgipaws and anyone else who engages in this argument, please try to do it with as little emotion as possible. I know things people are passionate about can carry a lot of emotion, but I don't like being rude or sounding rude, and it doesn't add anything to the discussion.

I'm not saying anything rude has been said yet. Just trying to ensure this can be gone about without hurt feelings on either side. I really have enjoyed your advice Corgipaws, so please don't feel I'm trying to be really confrontational if I'm coming off that way!


----------



## practicalfeeder (Feb 12, 2011)

CavePaws said:


> Corgipaws and anyone else who engages in this argument, please try to do it with as little emotion as possible. I know things people are passionate about can carry a lot of emotion, but I don't like being rude or sounding rude, and it doesn't add anything to the discussion.
> 
> I'm not saying anything rude has been said yet. Just trying to ensure this can be gone about without hurt feelings on either side. I really have enjoyed your advice Corgipaws, so please don't feel I'm trying to be really confrontational if I'm coming off that way!


People like Corgipaws just can't help it. They read one book and they are not only nutritional experts but also anthropologists.

The truth of the matter is that dogs are omnivores and largely scavengers. Cats are carnivores. If you put a jelly doughnut in front of a cat it won't eat it but a dog will and so will a wolf. Fox eat my goat and horse feeds all the time.

Don't let guys like Corgipaws act so high and mighty.


----------



## BabyHusky (Jul 21, 2008)

There is no need to insult or disrespect others on this forum. Corgi and Cave are both discussing their beliefs and their knowledge and that is that. There is no need for you to insult her.


----------



## whiteleo (Sep 7, 2008)

Practicalfeeder what rock did you crawl out from under? Have you ever looked inside your dogs mouth? Those aren't flat molars for eating vegetables are they? They are sharp teeth for ripping MEAT, nothing but MEAT!eace:


----------



## practicalfeeder (Feb 12, 2011)

whiteleo said:


> Practicalfeeder what rock did you crawl out from under? Have you ever looked inside your dogs mouth? Those aren't flat molars for eating vegetables are they? They are sharp teeth for ripping MEAT, nothing but MEAT!eace:


I see you read the same book. Dogs will and do eat anything they can find, meat, fruit, vegetable matter, breakfast cereal, horse pellets, manure, hoof trimmings, gummy bears, you name it.

No they do not have single purpose teeth like a horse or cow but they have teeth that can cut, chew, crush, hold and tear most anything. Sounds like a text book omnivore.

Are you trying to tell me a dog can't chew and grind up a carrot? Or a biscuit? Mine uses his incisors to scrape stalks of celery. And in fact the back molars are flat, take a look.


----------



## DaneMama (Jun 27, 2008)

I will shut this thread down if needed. 

practicalfeeder...you've been given warnings to act with respect. I highly suggest you do so.


----------



## CavePaws (Jan 25, 2011)

OH GOSH. Come on now, please for the sake of being able to discuss this lets act like adults!! The point of me saying, "Let's not add emotion into this" was so that no one would insult or add any snide comments in! :tea: - Let's have this emoticons little cheers and agree to that, please?

Danemama, I agree with you, if it becomes too poisonous in this thread by all means shut it down.
Or is it possible to delete all the things posted about what we've argued about if it becomes too heated..I don't want this to be hijacked from the user who posted it, then she can't even ask a question on it herself.

practicalfeeder - I do agree with you on the fact that they'll eat just about anything they can get their mouths on...I don't think they are omnivores by an omnivores definition at all. They are DEFINITELY in no way obligate carnivores though.


----------



## RawFedDogs (Jun 16, 2008)

CavePaws said:


> Indi had a full blood panel done the other day because she had to be put on medication, her blood work was completely fine and normal.


Quality of diet cannot be determined by blood panels. Blood panels are a snapshot of how well a dogs organs are functioning at the instant the blood was drawn.



> I'll take my dogs small firm poops and blood work as testimony that I'm not doing anything wrong and am in fact doing something right.


Firmness of stools an indicator of moisture in the intestines. Volume of stools is another good measure of good diet. Don't worry, I don't think you are harming your dogs either. However, I don't think you are doing them a favor by dumbing down their raw diet with kibble. I don't know what you are trying to gain by feeding kibble.



> I think the whole, 'dogs don't eat vegetables' is beside this point I'm trying to make, as many people include vegetables in their dogs diet feeding BARF.


These people are not doiing their dogs any favors either. BUT ... they are feeding their dogs fresh, although pureed, veggies. Not the highly processed burnt to a krisp unrecognizable veggies in kibble.



> Maybe you don't agree with it because you feed PMR and think dogs are strictly carnivores. I think they are opportunistic scavengers and some can be efficient hunters, so if they were truly out in the wild with humans no where to be found, there really would be no need for vegetables or fruit if they are not starving to death like a lot are.


Truly in the wild dogs, IF they ate veggies, would not be eating the veggies found in kibble or the veggie mixes of BARF feeders. They would be eating grass, leaves, weeds, & twigs plus some berries when they could find them.



> Most dogs who are out in very rural areas with the ability to find human resources, like trash, will eat just about anything they think tastes good including vegetables from trash cans. Mind you, dogs have evolved with humans over the past 10,000 - 14,000 years, domesticated ones living off scraps from humans.


We don't really know what they ate but I think table scraps would be a good guess. It doesn't mean its what their bodies were designed to eat. Thats what the PMR feeders go by. How the body is designed and what food it was designed to eat and digest. Plants are not something in that category.



> I couldn't say what exactly they fed their dogs, but judging by what I've seen 'wild dogs' eat, they do include vegetable matter in their diet if it's there for them.


It doesn't mean thats what they most efficiently utilize. They eat those to survive, not because they prefer it. Their bodies do not efficiently digest plant matter. There is no needed nutrients in plant matter.



> I said I can eat vegetable tempura while eating sushi, if we go by what you say about dogs being strictly carnivores, I have to ask, what if I'm eating only steak and sushi - which I've done before many times. Since this meal is made up of completely meat, what is the difference here between my stomach which takes longer to digest meat and theirs which takes a shorter amount of time?


Since their bodies are designed to eat strictly meat, bones, and organs and our bodies are designed to eat meat and plant matter, their bodies are much more specialized and more efficiently digest meat, bones, and organs. Their intestinal tract is much shorter than ours and it's much smoother inside to allow the meat to slide through easier. Our intestines are full of wrinkles to hold the plant matter inside longer to give it time to ferment. Dog's digestive juices are much more acidic.



> I hardly think you can compare dogs on Purina to what I feed my dogs...And I've never heard of a dog living a 20 year life on that crud - especially being healthy! If people were to actually feed the amount of Purina that is suggested their dogs would be highly overweight and probably have a number of health problems.


Personally, I don't see a lot of difference in different kibbles.



> If it's pureed or cooked it's usable, I believe.


If it has to be pureed to be used, that alone should tell you there is no need for it and it won't do your dog any good. There were no food processors a million years ago and dogs/wolves thrived on a diet of raw meat, bones, and organs with no veggies.

Our domestic dogs have exactly the same digestive system as wild wolves of today who haven't eaten unnatural food in their diet for the last 10,000 years or so. Our domestic dog's digestive system has not "adapted" to eating what we have fed them for a long time. It's still the same.



> Are the veggies that go into my dogs kibble cooked just like every other ingredient in there? I do believe so.


I think so too. :smile:


----------



## CavePaws (Jan 25, 2011)

I agree, dumbing down their diet with kibble isn't exactly doing them a favor when if given the resources, I would be feeding them a completely raw diet. For right now it's the best I can do for them. I know if I were to feed them a completely raw diet they would benefit more from this and I wouldn't worry so much about their kibble diet.

What was her blood panel supposed to be telling me then? She had a full panel done, the veterinarian told me she checked out very well though. I certainly hope we didn't pay 110 dollars on that for nothing. We had to have it done though, her liver needed to be checked to see if this medication would be suitable for her. 

So, what I'm saying is that feral dogs eat a variety of things from meat wherever they can get it to some plant matter when they find it. I assume all the plant matter and meat they got as scraps from humans way back when they were first becoming domesticated was raw *and *cooked, I also think the veggies were probably cooked. I never EVER saw the feral dogs who hung around our property eating grass or berries. They did, however, harass the neighbors donkeys and get into the trash. Those donkeys are pretty lucky they're so big, aggressive, and loud. I don't think it was worth the injury to them to take down prey that large. I agree with you RFD, they don't digest plant matter as efficiently as meat and prefer meat, which is why I saw them eating meat wherever they could find it and going through the trash in the winter especially. Dogs thrive on animal proteins and do just fine on solely that in my opinion. That does not change the fact though, that they do eat plant matter when given the opportunity. Eat to survive, I believe would be their motto, and when you're fending for yourself in a harsh environment, it probably doesn't matter much to you what you eat in order to satiate your hunger. Of course, I'm sure most dogs wild or domesticated, are partial to meat and would rather have that then a potato or carrot...

My dogs will chew hearts of lettuce and spit it out once the juices are gone...They're definitely carnivores, I don't give lettuce to them often, just once in a while I give in when I'm shredding it for my bearded dragon... I'll get hounded for it every day when its out though. :shocked:

edit: I'm sure wolves would have killed the donkeys if they could have. Wolves and dogs have far different head size and tooth size, so I remember last I checked. I think this says a lot about their ability to hunt large game and what they do out in the wild and how they have adapted their diets to meet their needs without risking a limb. By the way RFD, I'm trying to gain money and freezer space x_x, selfish of me I know. When I get a large freezer I assure you we will be buying meat in bulk and their will be no need for their highly processed food.


----------



## RawFedDogs (Jun 16, 2008)

CavePaws said:


> What was her blood panel supposed to be telling me then?


Natalie can answer this with a lot more detail than I can but basically a blood panel will tell you how different organs are working at the instant the blood is drawn. It can be affected by when the last meal was and what was fed. It primarily tells you about kidneys, liver, and pancreas.



> I assume all the plant matter and meat they got as scraps from humans way back when they were first becoming domesticated was raw *and *cooked, I also think the veggies were probably cooked.


I can't argue with what you say but I can tell you that their bodies haven't changed because of it.



> edit: I'm sure wolves would have killed the donkeys if they could have.


Yes, donkeys would be prey animals. :smile:



> Wolves and dogs have far different head size and tooth size, so I remember last I checked.


Sizes are different because they have been selectively bred out of them.



> By the way RFD, I'm trying to gain money and freezer space x_x, selfish of me I know. When I get a large freezer I assure you we will be buying meat in bulk and their will be no need for their highly processed food.


Good for you. If you need help, let me know. :smile:


----------



## CavePaws (Jan 25, 2011)

I'll definitely post if I need help, this forum has a wealth of information from some pretty experienced people so I'm happy to be here to learn more. 

True, we have selectively bred their muzzle size. I'm sure some of the giant breeds would pose a large threat to prey animals if they're driven enough. Think about a pack of 'wild' great danes or mastiffs, they might have eaten the donkeys. But then dogs who are free to breed for many generations tend to start looking pretty similar, so a wild dog is normally much smaller than a wolf. 

Honestly, I wish I could give my dogs whole rabbits, with fur still in tact, and ducks with the feathers. I think that would be the best thing ever in Indi and Preston's eyes. It would replicate what their parents ate - I guess a lot of small game would! Indi loves dissecting her toys and ripping the fur from stuffed animals. It's pretty hilarious to watch, but I know she'd be getting a really good replica of a feral dogs diet if she were eating small gamey animals. She's got a really high prey drive, might this be in part from her feral mommy?  I do love my dogs...I really wish I could get them a whole deer to eat, they would be like, "Wow, mom is the BEST HUNTER EVER." or maybe they'd know their feral mothers tricks and think I just dragged it home from the side of the road. 

So, I'll sum up my opinion on this so it's clear...I think if you're feeding kibble you should be supplementing with meat, whether raw or cooked - preferably raw with bone. Separate your meals as much as possible, because I do try to avoid any possible stomach upset. I wouldn't know if combining a lot of raw and kibble in the same meal works, as I don't do it. Vegetables are not a necessarypart of your dogs diet if they are being fed 'properly', but all kibble contains some form of plant matter and your dog CAN digest the better quality kibble's vegetables. If you're feeding your dog corn in any form you're giving him junk he realllllyyy can't digest... I don't know much about the similarities or differences at all in the digestive system of dogs and wolves. Though I would be interested to see if there are any differences at all.


----------



## CorgiPaws (Mar 31, 2009)

CavePaws said:


> I'll take my dogs small firm poops and blood work as testimony that I'm not doing anything wrong and am in fact doing something right.


Yes, and that's fantastic and all... but it's one of those there's never a problem until there's a problem issues. I can give my dog a big buffalo femur every day for years, and think I'm doing something right, but then tht day comes where we have a broken tooth, and oops, I guess I shouldn't have done that. 
I used to mix kibble and raw with no issues, by the way. That does not erase the potential that's there.




CavePaws said:


> I said I can eat vegetable tempura while eating sushi, if we go by what you say about dogs being strictly carnivores, I have to ask, what if I'm eating only steak and sushi - which I've done before many times. Since this meal is made up of completely meat, what is the difference here between my stomach which takes longer to digest meat and theirs which takes a shorter amount of time?


You can not compare our systems to dog's systems, and come up with anything that holds water. The fact remains that we are entirely different. 




CavePaws said:


> I hardly think you can compare dogs on Purina to what I feed my dogs...And I've never heard of a dog living a 20 year life on that crud - especially being healthy! If people were to actually feed the amount of Purina that is suggested their dogs would be highly overweight and probably have a number of health problems.


Oh no, I think you misunderstood. I'm not comparing what you feed to Pedigree. I'm jsut saying that just because people do something, and end up with a healthy dog, doesn't mean the diet is to credit or discredit. I can't remember what the oldest dog in the world was fed, I want to say it was Dog Chow, all I remember is it was one of the worst foods on the market. That was my point. I am certain you're doing much, much better than that!!!:thumb:




CavePaws said:


> Anyway, the point of this entire thing is: I think Kibble and Raw can go together fine if you let your dog adjust to it like any diet change. For what it's worth, if you're that freaking scared about your dog eating raw, cook it and give it to them. I'm not scared, I know _my _dogs can handle it just fine and are healthy.


ANd my point is this is not the case for most of the dogs I've seen. You are an exception. I'[m happy for you- for as long as it works out. 




practicalfeeder said:


> People like Corgipaws just can't help it. They read one book and they are not only nutritional experts but also anthropologists.


You're right, I just can't help it... I have a passion for canine nutrition. But I assure you, I've done far more than read one book and call myself an expert. 



practicalfeeder said:


> The truth of the matter is that dogs are omnivores and largely scavengers. Cats are carnivores. If you put a jelly doughnut in front of a cat it won't eat it but a dog will and so will a wolf. Fox eat my goat and horse feeds all the time.


You haven't met my cats. One will eat absolutely anything left out that maybe kinda sorta looks like it could be, or once was edible. 

Dogs are carnivores. They will eat other foods in times of famine out of desperation. I for one opt to feed an ideal diet, not one a starving dog would settle for. That being said, a dog will eat just about anything that appeals to its sense of smell. 
Meat. Berries. Fruit. SHoes. Sticks. Dirt. Poo. Rope. Anything.



practicalfeeder said:


> Don't let guys like Corgipaws act so high and mighty.


Female, here. 
And I'm in no way acting high and mighty. 
You out to learn to treat other members of this forum with dignity and respect, or you'll not be here long....





practicalfeeder said:


> Are you trying to tell me a dog can't chew and grind up a carrot? Or a biscuit? Mine uses his incisors to scrape stalks of celery. And in fact the back molars are flat, take a look.


silly goose:twitch:



CavePaws said:


> OH GOSH. Come on now, please for the sake of being able to discuss this lets act like adults!! The point of me saying, "Let's not add emotion into this" was so that no one would insult or add any snide comments in! :tea: - Let's have this emoticons little cheers and agree to that, please?
> .


cavepaws- I hope you know that my discussion has been purely friendly debate, I mean no harm.


----------



## CavePaws (Jan 25, 2011)

Well, if I have a problem while doing this I will be sure to post, trust me - I'd want advice! I'll be sure to voice my new opinion on the way this style of feeding goes if something does happen and this discussion comes up again.

I agree, I'd prefer not to feed my dogs the diet of a starving animal myself...Precisely why I won't go about picking up dead stinky deer and raccoons off the side of the road and bring them home for the pups. :tape2: Neither do I feed them trash or expect them to eat extra vegetables. I don't think that premium kibble is starving dog food, if you want, have a look at our dog Preston... He's definitely not starving. :rofl: 

I guess that's not really funny when you really think about it. >_> He just needs to be more 'toned'. 

Corgipaws, I'm glad to know this is decidedly friendly debate. :]


----------



## Guest (Feb 15, 2011)

PUNKem733 said:


> Green beans and carrots are not good for them...they're nothing to them. If they like it fine, as it does no harm, but dogs DO NOT get any nutritional value out of anything other than meat, bones, and organs. Anything else is filler.


While watching the Hound group competition of the Westminster Dog Show last night, the 15" Beagle, Lola, came in group second. The handler said on TV that Lola was fed a diet of "mostly green beans, rice, and carrots." :tsk:


----------



## Spoo&two (Feb 15, 2011)

CorgiPaws said:


> Dogs are carnivores. They will eat other foods in times of famine out of desperation. I for one opt to feed an ideal diet, not one a starving dog would settle for. That being said, a dog will eat just about anything that appeals to its sense of smell.
> Meat. Berries. Fruit. SHoes. Sticks. Dirt. Poo. Rope. Anything.
> 
> 
> I don't have much time for replies but did want to jump in. I just started raw feeding. I have two JRTs on all raw and a four month old Spoo on am kibble(blue wilderness salmon) and afternoon raw. I will most likely switch to all raw for the Spoo in time but he reacted so badly to the raw initially that I fed am kibble hoping to fix the diarrhea and vomiting. It worked. I believe that dogs are supposed to eat raw meat but I can tell you - my female JRT is nowhere near starving and goes out and picks blackberries/raspberries and blueberries all by herself. She likes berries and I did not introduce her to them. I am feeding one kibble and raw too. He is doing just fine. I believe he will transition to all raw at this point without much problem but I also see dogs grazing and certainly my jack is a berry hound. lol! sorry to interrupt.


----------



## CorgiPaws (Mar 31, 2009)

Spoo&two said:


> I don't have much time for replies but did want to jump in. I just started raw feeding. I have two JRTs on all raw and a four month old Spoo on am kibble(blue wilderness salmon) and afternoon raw. I will most likely switch to all raw for the Spoo in time but he reacted so badly to the raw initially that I fed am kibble hoping to fix the diarrhea and vomiting. It worked. I believe that dogs are supposed to eat raw meat but I can tell you - my female JRT is nowhere near starving and goes out and picks blackberries/raspberries and blueberries all by herself. She likes berries and I did not introduce her to them. I am feeding one kibble and raw too. He is doing just fine. I believe he will transition to all raw at this point without much problem but I also see dogs grazing and certainly my jack is a berry hound. lol! sorry to interrupt.


I'm not saying dogs won't. I guess it wasn't clear. Dogs will eat anything in times of famine AS WELL AS anything that entices their sense of smell. They don't have to be starving to eat something that smells good. 



> That being said, a dog will eat just about anything that appeals to its sense of smell.
> Meat. Berries. Fruit. SHoes. Sticks. Dirt. Poo. Rope. Anything.


----------



## Spoo&two (Feb 15, 2011)

I will say this for raw... I have never had any dog more excited to see me in the afternoons than these three since I began feeding them raw. They all go nuts!!! I am starting to train the Spoo to sit when I get the stuff outside and before I will give it to him. He sure doesn't act this way for the am kibble. They really do love the raw and are so content working it.


----------



## RawFedDogs (Jun 16, 2008)

Spoo&two said:


> my female JRT is nowhere near starving and goes out and picks blackberries/raspberries and blueberries all by herself. She likes berries and I did not introduce her to them.


Sugar. Sweet taste. :smile:


----------

