# New Grain Frees From a Company That Knows Dog Food



## wrangler1 (Jun 27, 2010)

Annamaet Petfoods


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## kevin bradley (Aug 9, 2009)

never understood why these companies continue to put out 30% protein/less grain free foods. 

The minute I see this...I think "not enough meat." 

But, looks like decent food no doubt.


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## wrangler1 (Jun 27, 2010)

You should look at the website especially the 'about us' section. I am a big fan of Downey's products, he runs one of the few pet food companies where the owner actually knows something about canine nutrition. I can't think of another except for Abady where the owner had actual experience at high levels of competition whether it was show or sport or both.

I use both products, Annamaet Ultra and Abady, depending on the application.


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## GermanSheperdlover (Nov 15, 2009)

wrangler1 said:


> Annamaet Petfoods


 How can you say it is grain free, when every product I saw had brown rice in it AND SOME EVEN HAD CORN. When I see the word corn in a dog food product, I figure that they are a low quality dog food manufacture. I do not mind seeing brown rice, I just can't stand seeing all the other grain piled in on top of it. I would not buy anything from these guys...


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## GermanSheperdlover (Nov 15, 2009)

wrangler1 said:


> You should look at the website especially the 'about us' section. I am a big fan of Downey's products, he runs one of the few pet food companies where the owner actually knows something about canine nutrition. I can't think of another except for Abady where the owner had actual experience at high levels of competition whether it was show or sport or both.
> 
> I use both products, Annamaet Ultra and Abady, depending on the application.


 I truly feel sorry for your dog. Abady has to be one of the worst dog foods made today. Ya, once upon a time it might have been a good food but not today.

Dog Food Reviews - Abady Classic Maintenance/Stress formula - Powered by ReviewPost

The Dog Food Project - Ingredients to avoid


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## JayJayisme (Aug 2, 2009)

Looks like crap to me. Looking at the ingredients of their dog foods, Annamaet Encore, Option, Extra, and Adult, not one has a named meat source. All start with a meat MEAL (chicken or catfish) and go straight into the grains from there. I wouldn't feed this stuff to the neighborhood raccoons.

Then there are their grain free products, Aqualuk, Salcha, and Manitok (such unfortunate names from a marketing POV) yet I can find no ingredient lists for any of them. 

Fail.


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## wrangler1 (Jun 27, 2010)

you are looking at the wrong section of the website, look under:

Annamaet Petfoods

If you had working or hunting dogs you would know how valuable properly cooked corn is. The corn myth just won't go away. Corn gluten is bad in dog food but not whole grain corn. The internet corn allergy myth has done nothing but take a valuable ingredient out of dog food,

In Annamaet Ultra there is actually more fat than corn.

This guy knows his stuff and I think he is Vice-Chair of ISDRA now.


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## GermanSheperdlover (Nov 15, 2009)

wrangler1 said:


> You should look at the website especially the 'about us' section. I am a big fan of Downey's products, he runs one of the few pet food companies where the owner actually knows something about canine nutrition. I can't think of another except for Abady where the owner had actual experience at high levels of competition whether it was show or sport or both.
> 
> I use both products, Annamaet Ultra and Abady, depending on the application.


Do you really believe what this guy says?? Heck the morons at Abady says their DOG food solve's hip-dysplasia. Do you know anything about dysplasia? That statement burns me because it is a total OUTRIGHT LIE???


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## wrangler1 (Jun 27, 2010)

GermanSheperdlover said:


> I truly feel sorry for your dog. Abady has to be one of the worst dog foods made today. Ya, once upon a time it might have been a good food but not today.
> 
> Dog Food Reviews - Abady Classic Maintenance/Stress formula - Powered by ReviewPost
> 
> The Dog Food Project - Ingredients to avoid



Tell me why, give me science not internet nonsense. Science please, not internet nonsense. Abady always creates a violent reaction out of ignorance.


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## wrangler1 (Jun 27, 2010)

JayJayisme said:


> Looks like crap to me. Looking at the ingredients of their dog foods, Annamaet Encore, Option, Extra, and Adult, not one has a named meat source. All start with a meat MEAL (chicken or catfish) and go straight into the grains from there. I wouldn't feed this stuff to the neighborhood raccoons.
> 
> Then there are their grain free products, Aqualuk, Salcha, and Manitok (such unfortunate names from a marketing POV) yet I can find no ingredient lists for any of them.
> 
> Fail.


You dont understand a thing about dog food. "Meat" is 70 -80% water "Meal" is about 10% water. Meal should always be the first ingredient. The water is included in the ranking of ingredients. Its a marketing gimmic.

The Annamaet Grain Frees are just coming out, the section on the website is just an announcement. See below:

Robert Downey

• Lifelong involvement with dogs
• Graduate of The Ohio State University
• Graduate work at University of Pennsylvania School of Veterinary Medicine
• President of Annamaet Petfoods
• Currently maintains a kennel of 25 racing sled dogs.
• 2006 8-Dog & 10-Dog ISDRA Gold Medalist
• 2008 8-Dog North American Champion
• 2009 Bronze Medal IFSS World Championship
• Vice Chairman of the International Sled Dog Racing Association


Works by Downey
• Downey, R.L., Kronfeld, D.S. and Banta, C.A. "Diet of Beagles Affects Stamina." Journal American Animal Hospital Association, Vol. 16 (1980), pp. 273 - 7.
• Kronfeld, D.S., Downey, R.L., "Nutritional Strategies for Stamina in Dogs and Horses." Proceedings, Nutrition Society Australia, Vol. 6 (1981), pp. 21 - 9.
• Kronfeld, D.S., Atkins, T.O., and Downey, R.L., "Nutrition, Anaerobic and Aerobic Exercise, and Stress." Nutrition of the Dog and Cat, Ed. Burger, I.H.,
Rivers, J. P. W. New York: Cambridge University Press, 1989, pp. 133 - 45.
• Kronfeld, D.S., Downey, R.L., and Banta, C.A. "Stamina of Beagles is Influenced by Diet." Proceedings, American College Veterinary Internal Medicine,
Seattle (1979), p. 105.
• Downey, R.L. "Feeding for Winning." Hounds and Hunting Vol. 76 (1979), pp. 32 - 36.
• Downey, R.L. "Musher (With a Difference!) With Leatha Braden." Siberian World, Vol. 3 (1979), pp. 3 - 8.
• Downey, R.L. "Heat Stress in Dogs." Howl Magazine.


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## PUNKem733 (Jun 12, 2009)

Looks like this fella might be a lost casue. He thinks meals are the greatest, and corn is a valuable ingredient for dogs. LOL!!


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## wrangler1 (Jun 27, 2010)

GermanSheperdlover said:


> Do you really believe what this guy says?? Heck the morons at Abady says their DOG food solve's hip-dysplasia. Do you know anything about dysplasia? That statement burns me because it is a total OUTRIGHT LIE???


Actually Fidelco did a study over 20 years and wrote a letter to Abady. Fidelco is a guide dog training center in New England and has nothing to do with Abady other than use the food.


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## wrangler1 (Jun 27, 2010)

PUNKem733 said:


> Looks like this fella might be a lost casue. He thinks meals are the greatest, and corn is a valuable ingredient for dogs. LOL!!


If you had a dog that needed to hunts for 8 or more hours and run 35 - 40 miles in a day you would know what I mean. Here:

Corn In Pet Foods | GREATDANELADY.COM

she is pretty knowledgable


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## PUNKem733 (Jun 12, 2009)

This has to be claybuster.


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## Guest (Jul 8, 2010)

wrangler1 said:


> If you had a dog that needed to hunts for 8 or more hours and run 35 - 40 miles in a day you would know what I mean. Here:
> 
> Corn In Pet Foods | GREATDANELADY.COM
> 
> she is pretty knowledgable



This same woman, known as the Great Dane Lady, recommends Precise Pet Foods, all of these formulas contain NO corn, wheat or soy:

food for great danes dogs| GREATDANELADY.COM

See also, http://www.greatdanelady.com/articles/criteria_list_of_better_foods.htm for her list of food recommendations.


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## buddy97 (Mar 29, 2010)

PUNKem733 said:


> Looks like this fella might be a lost casue. He thinks meals are the greatest, and corn is a valuable ingredient for dogs. LOL!!
> 
> 
> ]


well, named meat meals are the only way any significant amount of meat gets into any high meat content dog food like orijen or EVO.dog foods. named meats are usually little more than window dressing.


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## PUNKem733 (Jun 12, 2009)

I like to see the named meat, then the meal. Meal is highly processed, much more so than meats.

That lady means nothing to me. I read a few sentences, and knew this was a waste of time.


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## buddy97 (Mar 29, 2010)

PUNKem733 said:


> I like to see the named meat, then the meal. Meal is highly processed, much more so than meats.
> 
> That lady means nothing to me. I read a few sentences, and knew this was a waste of time.


doesnt matter. that named meat meal is where the very high majority of the meat comes from. having a named meat first just means that meat is 6,7,8 or worse down the ingredient list. the named meat looks good sitiing there on the list, but i accept that it adds very little meat to a dog food.

some meat meals are of much higher quality than others (such as those that are comprised of more muscle meat).

bottom line is, if a dog food is going to have a truly high meat content, like orijen or evo, the meat content will come almost entirely from named meat meals.


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## PUNKem733 (Jun 12, 2009)

buddy97 said:


> doesnt matter. that named meat meal is where the very high majority of the meat comes from. having a named meat first just means that meat is 6,7,8 or worse down the ingredient list. the named meat looks good sitiing there on the list, but i accept that it adds very little meat to a dog food.
> 
> some meat meals are of much higher quality than others (such as those that are comprised of more muscle meat).
> 
> bottom line is, if a dog food is going to have a truly high meat content, like orijen or evo, the meat content will come almost entirely from named meat meals.


Yeah I know that to be true, I just like to think the less amounts of meals would mean less processing in the end. Not to say that meals are bad, as high quality stuff from an Evo or an Orijen is good stuff.


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## ghostrunner (Mar 24, 2010)

@Wrangler1, I'm disturbed by your tone, but will leave that issue aside. I find it interesting that you charged a prior poster to "Tell me why, give me science not internet nonsense. Science please, not internet nonsense. Abady always creates a violent reaction out of ignorance" but then turned around and cited a decidedly non-scientific source (see your quote below). I'm not aware of any original research that Ms. Arndt has done on this topic, which suggests that her musings are just that: musings.



wrangler1 said:


> If you had a dog that needed to hunts for 8 or more hours and run 35 - 40 miles in a day you would know what I mean. Here:
> 
> Corn In Pet Foods | GREATDANELADY.COM
> 
> she is pretty knowledgable


Against my better judgment, I'll take your bait: please provide us with the "science" that suggests that corn is part of acceptable or ideal canine diet. Please do not reply (as you have in other of your posts) to the effect that I am ignorant or can't handle the science.


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## JayJayisme (Aug 2, 2009)

wrangler1 said:


> you are looking at the wrong section of the website, look under:
> 
> Annamaet Petfoods


Fail again. I mentioned this line but there are no ingredient lists there. THAT is what you should base the evaluation of pet food on, not the marketing hype.

I'm convinced wrangler1 is here for no reason other than to SPAM the board with useless crapola.


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## JayJayisme (Aug 2, 2009)

wrangler1 said:


> You dont understand a thing about dog food. "Meat" is 70 -80% water "Meal" is about 10% water. Meal should always be the first ingredient. The water is included in the ranking of ingredients. Its a marketing gimmic.


Fail again. Meal is low in water because it's low in meat. Meal is made from the animal carcass, after most of the meat is removed. Therefore it's mostly bone. 

WHERE'S THE MEAT?


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## Unosmom (May 3, 2009)

I dont see the ingridient list for their grain free lines.


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## wrangler1 (Jun 27, 2010)

JayJayisme said:


> Fail again. I mentioned this line but there are no ingredient lists there. THAT is what you should base the evaluation of pet food on, not the marketing hype.
> 
> I'm convinced wrangler1 is here for no reason other than to SPAM the board with useless crapola.



You guys are funny. Have you ever heard of Dr. David Kronfeld? How about the famous beagle studies at Penn?

Robert Downey

Lifelong involvement with dogs
• Graduate of The Ohio State University
• Graduate work at University of Pennsylvania School of Veterinary Medicine
• President of Annamaet Petfoods
• Currently maintains a kennel of 25 racing sled dogs.
• 2006 8-Dog & 10-Dog ISDRA Gold Medalist
• 2008 8-Dog North American Champion
• 2009 Bronze Medal IFSS World Championship
• Vice Chairman of the International Sled Dog Racing Association


Works by Downey
• Downey, R.L., Kronfeld, D.S. and Banta, C.A. "Diet of Beagles Affects Stamina." Journal American Animal Hospital Association, Vol. 16 (1980), pp. 273 - 7.
• Kronfeld, D.S., Downey, R.L., "Nutritional Strategies for Stamina in Dogs and Horses." Proceedings, Nutrition Society Australia, Vol. 6 (1981), pp. 21 - 9.
• Kronfeld, D.S., Atkins, T.O., and Downey, R.L., "Nutrition, Anaerobic and Aerobic Exercise, and Stress." Nutrition of the Dog and Cat, Ed. Burger, I.H.,
Rivers, J. P. W. New York: Cambridge University Press, 1989, pp. 133 - 45.
• Kronfeld, D.S., Downey, R.L., and Banta, C.A. "Stamina of Beagles is Influenced by Diet." Proceedings, American College Veterinary Internal Medicine,
Seattle (1979), p. 105.
• Downey, R.L. "Feeding for Winning." Hounds and Hunting Vol. 76 (1979), pp. 32 - 36.
• Downey, R.L. "Musher (With a Difference!) With Leatha Braden." Siberian World, Vol. 3 (1979), pp. 3 - 8.
• Downey, R.L. "Heat Stress in Dogs." Howl Magazine.


You guys really make me laugh. A few years back that wonderful Canadian company made supermarket foods and recalled food infected with BSE and you worship it. I think three recalls in the last 7 years.

I am just here to educate.


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## ghostrunner (Mar 24, 2010)

Yes, you posted Downey's CV back on page 1 of this post. Unclear how or why it is relevant to the topic at hand. I note that most of the publications you cite are at least 30 years ago - a period when canine nutrition was in its infancy. It would be like citing to a paper from 1910 for information in treating a heart attack.


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## wrangler1 (Jun 27, 2010)

JayJayisme said:


> Fail again. Meal is low in water because it's low in meat. Meal is made from the animal carcass, after most of the meat is removed. Therefore it's mostly bone.
> 
> WHERE'S THE MEAT?



LOL

I think you need to read a little. Think about sun dried tomatoes compared to fresh tomatoes. Think about the nutrition in a pound of sun dried tomatoes compared to a pound of fresh tomatoes. That is a good way to think about chicken meal vs fresh chicken.


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## PUNKem733 (Jun 12, 2009)

wrangler1 said:


> LOL
> 
> I think you need to read a little. Think about sun dried tomatoes compared to fresh tomatoes. Think about the nutrition in a pound of sun dried tomatoes compared to a pound of fresh tomatoes. That is a good way to think about chicken meal vs fresh chicken.


Yeah, think about all that, and know there isn't anything as wholesome as sun drying going on with most meals.


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## RawFedDogs (Jun 16, 2008)

wrangler1 said:


> Think about the nutrition in a pound of sun dried tomatoes compared to a pound of fresh tomatoes. That is a good way to think about chicken meal vs fresh chicken.


I think you are the one who needs to read. I'm with JayJay on this one. Chicken meal is the ground up remains of a chicken carcass after the human usable parts (read meat) had been removed. It's mostly bone and connective tissue. It's measured in dry weight because it doesn't hold water. Chicken meal IS NOT dehydrated whole chickens. Chicken meal is the 2nd cheapest product to come out of a chicken processing plant, just behind chicken by product meal. Why would you go to the expense to dehydrate chicken to make a cheaper product than the whole chicken?


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## JayJayisme (Aug 2, 2009)

wrangler1 said:


> You guys are funny. Have you ever heard of Dr. David Kronfeld? How about the famous beagle studies at Penn?


Who gives a rodent's behind? You think people should choose kibble strictly based on it being associated with a doctor? So we should shun the ingredient list and not ask questions or evaluate the food for ourselves? Are you serious?

I've spent my whole life getting jerked around by the medical profession and incompetent doctors. I don't trust them as far as I could throw one. I base health decisions for myself, my family, and my dogs on multiple factors, not just the reputation of some academic snob. You're completely out of touch.

BTW, following your logic on meat versus meat meals, I guess I won't eat steak any more. I'll just yak on a piece of jerky when I'm in the mood for meat. :wink:


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## buddy97 (Mar 29, 2010)

JayJayisme said:


> Fail again. Meal is low in water because it's low in meat. Meal is made from the animal carcass, after most of the meat is removed. Therefore it's mostly bone.
> 
> WHERE'S THE MEAT?


this is not at all entirely accurate.

there are lots of different quality levels of named meat meals, just as there are with all products. some companies use meals that were derived from primarily muscle meat, while others use meals derived from the much less desirable pieces of meat from the carcas.

if your definition was true, foods like evo or orijen, that have to use named meat meals to make up a vasrt majority of their meat content would be full of mostly bone.

id invite you to correspond with orijen and ask how their meat meal is created and from what parts of the animals precisely.
for example: here is some of the correspondence i had recently with Diama at Orijen regarding their chicken meal:

_Hello Derek,

Thanks for writing to us on the often confusing subject of chicken or fish meal ingredients.

ORIJEN is made with special 'low ash' chicken meal. This ingredient is prepared by removing the bones before cooking, which creates a very high protein and low ash ingredient. The result is a moderated amount of calcium and phosphorus in the final ORIJEN kibble. There are definitely different qualities of meat meals out there, just as there are many different grades of meat for you to choose from at your local grocers. If you start with ingredients that are mostly muscle meat (as is the case with our meat meals), this results in a quality meal that is very high in protein. so, yes, most of the content of our meals will be muscle meat.


Best Regards,

Bonnie
Champion Petfoods LP
p 780.939.6888
f 780.939.6858_


can anyone name me a dog kibble that is high in meat content that does not use named meat meals to derive most of their meat product? looking at all the higher protein, grainless foods, i see none.


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## buddy97 (Mar 29, 2010)

RawFedDogs said:


> Chicken meal is the ground up remains of a chicken carcass after the human usable parts (read meat) had been removed. It's mostly bone and connective tissue.?


do you have evidence that this is exactly the quality of named meat meals being used by all manufacturers? simply being a commonly found definiton dosnt make it the reality of what all manufacturers are using.


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## buddy97 (Mar 29, 2010)

JayJayisme said:


> BTW, following your logic on meat versus meat meals, I guess I won't eat steak any more. I'll just yak on a piece of jerky when I'm in the mood for meat. :wink:


i will assume anyone who wants their dogs to consume a truly meat based diet of any quality isnt feeding kibble anyway, since the kibbles with any fair amount of meat content got that way via the use of named meat meal. the named meats are usually nothing more than window dressing.

im not here to argue named meat meals vs named meat in dog food, as their is no real argument. the named meats in dog foods make up a tiny amount of any foods meat content.

im also not going to argue that even the meals used by orijen are going to be as good as true raw meat from my grocer, which is why i feed raw meats at least 1/2 the time now.


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## JayJayisme (Aug 2, 2009)

If you were a dog food manufacturer and wanted to be able to publish an impressive ingredient list, wouldn't you strive to list meats first and meat meals farther down the list? If meat meals have so much meat on them, wouldn't the meat just be removed from the carcass separating the meat from the meat meal ingredients so you can show it has having a higher percentage of meat?

Sure you would.

Look at EVO Red Meat Formula. 

Meat-Based Pet Food – Premium Dog Food, Cat Food, Ferret Food, Dog Treats – EVO Pet Products

Beef (not beef meal) is the first ingredient, followed by lamb meal. But, in fact, there is also lamb meat in the ingredient list. Hmm...so there is lamb meal and lamb meat. If the lamb meal is so impressive and there are no standards between calling something a meat meal regardless of the percentage of meat to bone, why bother showing both on the ingredient list?

I find it hard to believe that any dog food manufacturer going to the expense of buying "meat-heavy" carcasses would not separate the meat first in order to make it appear that there is more meat in the product.

BTW, this is how Natura describes lamb meat and lamb meal.

Lamb meat:
Lamb consists of lamb striated muscle tissue.

Natura uses only high-quality lamb meat, not the lamb by-products found in some other products.

Lamb meal:
Lamb meal is the dry rendered (cooked down) product from lamb tissues, exclusive of any added blood, hair, hoof, hide trimmings, manure, stomach and rumen contents except in such amounts as may occur unavoidably in good processing practices.

i.e., the carcass.


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## JayJayisme (Aug 2, 2009)

buddy97 said:


> i will assume anyone who wants their dogs to consume a truly meat based diet of any quality isnt feeding kibble anyway...


Not THAT we can agree on. I gave up on kibble a long time ago and now feed my dogs prey model raw (raw meat, bones, and organs). They love it and are as healthy as can be.


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## stajbs (Jun 5, 2010)

Having found ourselves in the "sled dog world" some 17 years ago, and being in the same local sled dog club with Rob Downey, I have to admit we fed Annamaet for years when we first started. It was the food our mentors recommended and actually the dogs did do well on the food, and they liked it. However, a lot of the research Rob has done is old now, and more has been learned about canine nutrition since then. I became personally frustrated with the owner of the company when he denied that it was likely my one siberian was having issues with rice in the Optimum formula if I remember correctly. He felt rice was the least likely grain to cause allergy reactions in dogs. Well, I had spent over a year figuring out what was creating problems for my one boy, and I was sure it was rice. About 5 years ago when I started learning more about canine nutrition and had to make some adjustments in diets for our senior dogs I started ordering less and less Annamaet, and it was as if I was now "dirt" in his eyes. I was only doing what I felt best for our dogs and that did not go over well. So we switched all the dogs diets, and also started doing some cooking for our dogs.

That being said I do feel there are far worse foods than Annamaet, and I would be happy to see the folks at the grocery store buying pedigree, going to a feed store for Annamaet. I had not known Annamaet had even ventured into grain free foods, it surprises me somewhat based on prior comments from the comany's owner. Interesting viewpoint change for this company.


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## RawFedDogs (Jun 16, 2008)

buddy97 said:


> do you have evidence that this is exactly the quality of named meat meals being used by all manufacturers? simply being a commonly found definiton dosnt make it the reality of what all manufacturers are using.


That IS what meal is _..."Chicken meal is the ground up remains of a chicken carcass after the human usable parts (read meat) had been removed. It's mostly bone and connective tissue."_

The human usuable meat is removed from the carcass. Human usable meat is the main product of the meat processing plants. It is the most expensive product they have. Why would they include this expensive product in their cheapest product? ALL the product that can be sold as human food, IS sold as human food and it not part of the cheap meals. I don't know how to explain it any better.


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## ruckusluvr (Oct 28, 2009)

stajbs said:


> That being said I do feel there are far worse foods than Annamaet, and I would be happy to see the folks at the grocery store buying pedigree, going to a feed store for Annamaet. I had not known Annamaet had even ventured into grain free foods, it surprises me somewhat based on prior comments from the comany's owner. Interesting viewpoint change for this company.


grain free sales. they knew it, jumped on the band waggon.


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## wrangler1 (Jun 27, 2010)

RawFedDogs said:


> I think you are the one who needs to read. I'm with JayJay on this one. Chicken meal is the ground up remains of a chicken carcass after the human usable parts (read meat) had been removed. It's mostly bone and connective tissue. It's measured in dry weight because it doesn't hold water. Chicken meal IS NOT dehydrated whole chickens. Chicken meal is the 2nd cheapest product to come out of a chicken processing plant, just behind chicken by product meal. Why would you go to the expense to dehydrate chicken to make a cheaper product than the whole chicken?



You are the moderator? LOLOLO Anyone that knows anything about pet food knows the only way to get high levels of protein in a dog is through the "meal" not through "meat". When you see "fresh chicken" listed as the #1ingredient it is before cooking so its includes water weight.

Maybe this link from Canidae will help you understand this most basic fact:

CANIDAE® Pet Foods: Meat versus Meal in Dog Food


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## wrangler1 (Jun 27, 2010)

stajbs said:


> Having found ourselves in the "sled dog world" some 17 years ago, and being in the same local sled dog club with Rob Downey, I have to admit we fed Annamaet for years when we first started. It was the food our mentors recommended and actually the dogs did do well on the food, and they liked it. However, a lot of the research Rob has done is old now, and more has been learned about canine nutrition since then. I became personally frustrated with the owner of the company when he denied that it was likely my one siberian was having issues with rice in the Optimum formula if I remember correctly. He felt rice was the least likely grain to cause allergy reactions in dogs. Well, I had spent over a year figuring out what was creating problems for my one boy, and I was sure it was rice. About 5 years ago when I started learning more about canine nutrition and had to make some adjustments in diets for our senior dogs I started ordering less and less Annamaet, and it was as if I was now "dirt" in his eyes. I was only doing what I felt best for our dogs and that did not go over well. So we switched all the dogs diets, and also started doing some cooking for our dogs.
> 
> That being said I do feel there are far worse foods than Annamaet, and I would be happy to see the folks at the grocery store buying pedigree, going to a feed store for Annamaet. I had not known Annamaet had even ventured into grain free foods, it surprises me somewhat based on prior comments from the comany's owner. Interesting viewpoint change for this company.


His dogs keep winnning and winning as does my friends that eat only Ultra. The comment that his research is old in nonsense. He is not a student anymore and the products have been updated over the years based on his experiences with his own dogs.

And actually I agree with him on rice allergies, grains allergies are virtually nonexistant. A friend at a major Vet school in NY told me that grain allergies are a soft 5% of all dog food allergies. When I say a soft 5% it is because it is unclear whether its grain or protein related. Many dogs are allergic to nearly everything because their immune systems have broken down.

Do you have his record of winning?


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## kevin bradley (Aug 9, 2009)

buddy97 said:


> this is not at all entirely accurate.
> 
> there are lots of different quality levels of named meat meals, just as there are with all products. some companies use meals that were derived from primarily muscle meat, while others use meals derived from the much less desirable pieces of meat from the carcas.
> 
> ...




ahhhhhh....Orijen and Acana. Makes my heart skip a beat:wink::biggrin:


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## CorgiPaws (Mar 31, 2009)

Thank you, Wrangler, for providing a good laugh this morning. Your nonsense truely amuses me. 


Perhaps your biggest problem is that you get your information from dog food companies, and not from common sense or nature. 
I assure you, Mother Nature knows far better than Canidae's website. 


Silly goose.


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## kevin bradley (Aug 9, 2009)

GermanSheperdlover said:


> I truly feel sorry for your dog. Abady has to be one of the worst dog foods made today. Ya, once upon a time it might have been a good food but not today.
> 
> Dog Food Reviews - Abady Classic Maintenance/Stress formula - Powered by ReviewPost
> 
> The Dog Food Project - Ingredients to avoid



Come on guys. "worst dog food" Seriously? I ain't no great fan of Abady but "worst food." 

No way. There are just too many other "contenders." :wink:


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## RawFedDogs (Jun 16, 2008)

wrangler1 said:


> You are the moderator? LOLOLO Anyone that knows anything about pet food knows the only way to get high levels of protein in a dog is through the "meal" not through "meat". When you see "fresh chicken" listed as the #1ingredient it is before cooking so its includes water weight.


Yes, and ALL the meat I personally eat has water in it. I don't think you eat dehydrated meat yourself either. Contrary to what the dog food producers want you to think, chicken meal is not dehydrated chicken meat. Chicken meal (or any other animal meal) is the ground up reminants of the carcass after the human usuable parts are removed. It's mostly bone and connective tissue with very little meat left on the bone. It is garbage that would be thrown away if not bought by the rendering plants.

It is the cheapest product sold by the packing house. Why on earth would they take their most expensive product (meat), spend money processing it (grinding and dehydrating) only to transform it into their cheapest product?

BTW: Meal is measured in dry weight because it's mostly bone and doesn't hold water.



> Maybe this link from Canidae will help you understand this most basic fact:
> 
> CANIDAE® Pet Foods: Meat versus Meal in Dog Food


I don't get my information from the marketing departments from the dog food manufacturing companies. Of course they want you to think meal is the greatest thing since sliced bread. I generally find more reliable sources.


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## kevin bradley (Aug 9, 2009)

Would it be fair to say that the myth "chicken meal is better because it doesn't contain all the water weight" was conjured up by someone in the industry? 

Seriously, Wrangler, if this has any truth, you should be ashamed. 

Something always felt funny when I'd hear that meal was better than real meat. 

WATER? For pete's sake, the human body is 70% water as I understand it. 


This makes me sick and it wreaks of scoundrel-ness(not a word I know).


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## wrangler1 (Jun 27, 2010)

kevin bradley said:


> Would it be fair to say that the myth "chicken meal is better because it doesn't contain all the water weight" was conjured up by someone in the industry?
> 
> Seriously, Wrangler, if this has any truth, you should be ashamed.
> 
> ...




Listen you seem like nice people and if I have been sharp in the past I apologize, but you really need to understand this concept because the using "fresh chicken" as defined:

"Chicken is the clean combination of flesh and skin with or without accompanying bone, derived from the parts or whole carcasses of chicken- exclusive of feathers, heads, feet, and entrails" 

as the first ingredient is a very misleading tactic of the pet food industry. The link I put up from Canidae is fact and you can find that same analysis in dozens of places because its the truth.

I am not saying fresh protein is bad but unless its backed up by a meal product like "meal" or the higher grades of "by-product meal" the food you are using is nothing but grain.

Unfortunately, the FDA does require pet food companies to label pet foods after processing only before. If you want to pay top dollar for water go right ahead.

*"If you feed your dog mostly dry food, with nothing or very little else added - like most people do - I recommend looking for a product that does contain one or more concentrated sources of animal protein in form of meal (either by itself, or in combination with fresh meats). This kibble will make up almost all of your dog's food intake, and if you feed a food that only contains fresh meat, the actual proportion of meat to grains or other carbohydrate sources is very low - and thus species inappropriate for an animal that is a meat eater by nature, with a digestive tract designed to process mainly meats and fat"*

I hope you get the concept now that when the label lists "chicken" as the first ingredient its because of water weight not protein.


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## wrangler1 (Jun 27, 2010)

kevin bradley said:


> Would it be fair to say that the myth "chicken meal is better because it doesn't contain all the water weight" was conjured up by someone in the industry?
> 
> Seriously, Wrangler, if this has any truth, you should be ashamed.
> 
> ...



This is from the FDA's website on Pet Food labels:

*"All ingredients are required to be listed in order of predominance by weight. The weights of ingredients are determined as they are added in the formulation, including their inherent water content. This latter fact is important when evaluating relative quantity claims, especially when ingredients of different moisture contents are compared.

For example, one pet food may list "meat" as its first ingredient, and "corn" as the second ingredient. The manufacturer doesn't hesitate to point out that its competitor lists "corn" first ("meat meal" is second), suggesting the competitor's product has less animal-source protein than its own. However, meat is very high in moisture (approximately 75% water). On the other hand, water and fat are removed from meat meal, so it is only 10% moisture (what's left is mostly protein and minerals). If we could compare both products on a dry matter basis (mathematically "remove" the water from both ingredients), one could see that the second product had more animal-source protein from meat meal than the first product had from meat, even though the ingredient list suggests otherwise."*


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

as if the FDA is the be all end all of authorities...brought to you by the folks who approved fen-fen and ephedrine...

come on....just because it has capital letters doesn't make it the be all end all....

i don't know anything about this food, other than what i know of dr. kronfeld, who did, indeed, go to Penn Vet School, which is, by the way, no more...and dr. kronfeld is no longer, having died in 2006....

his best works were in the sixties....Lord help me, i hope things have changed since then...that consumers have become more savvy and what did you say?

chicken meal is to chicken as sun dried tomatoes are to tomatoes??

really? Really?

since you like acronyms and groups:

Chicken meal, according to the Association of American Feed Control Officials (AAFCO), is the dry rendered product from a combination of clean chicken flesh and skin with or without accompanying bone, derived from whole carcasses of chicken, exclusive of feathers, heads, feet and entrails.

Sundried Tomatoes:
Simply slice tomatoes in half, place on a raised screen, lightly sprinkle with salt and optional herbs, and place in the hot sun until dry.

with the chicken meal..it is then processed with the other ingredients to make those cute little nugget shapes.

the tomatoes, well, you just eat.

i'd sooner feed my dogs sundried tomatoes....


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## 3feathers (Oct 29, 2008)

RawFedDogs said:


> Contrary to what the dog food producers want you to think, chicken meal is not dehydrated chicken meat. Chicken meal (or any other animal meal) is the ground up reminants of the carcass after the human usuable parts are removed. It's mostly bone and connective tissue with very little meat left on the bone. It is garbage that would be thrown away if not bought by the rendering plants.
> 
> It is the cheapest product sold by the packing house. Why on earth would they take their most expensive product (meat), spend money processing it (grinding and dehydrating) only to transform it into their cheapest product?


So, I wonder if Champion is lying to us all?


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## buddy97 (Mar 29, 2010)

JayJayisme said:


> If you were a dog food manufacturer and wanted to be able to publish an impressive ingredient list, wouldn't you strive to list meats first and meat meals farther down the list? If meat meals have so much meat on them, wouldn't the meat just be removed from the carcass separating the meat from the meat meal ingredients so you can show it has having a higher percentage of meat?
> 
> Sure you would.
> 
> ...


sure, it "looks" better. it is still not a significant source of the meat in the food. the named meals are. no dog food manufactgurer can use so much fresh meat such that after cooking out the water it makes it anywhere near the top of the ingredient list post processing.

if rules only allowed them to list ingredients by weight after cooking, you just wouldnt see any named meats anywhere near the top...the current labeling rules simply make it possible to list named meats first......but who cares, because they are first due to their hydrated weight, thats isnt what matters in the end.


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## buddy97 (Mar 29, 2010)

all of you kibble feeders are in fantasyland if you think the vast majority of meats in your food is from named meats. it IS from named meat meals. if named meats were anywhere near the top of the ingredient list after cooking, the amount of meat used pre processing would cause the manufacturers to charge many times more for that bag of food.

you might feel better seeing those named meats high on the ingredient list, but it is fools gold.

all these definitions of named meat meals are being thrown around, but their is not a standardiized requirement in the industry of what constitutes a named meat meal.

if most of the named meat meals used by orijen are comprised mostly from muscle meat, that doesnt at all fit the descriptions that some of you are throwing around. while i firmly believe orijens named meat meals are of higher grade than those used by many others, i still recognize that they cant replace fresh meat. i also realize fresh meat in non meal form is not making itself into any kibbles in any significant quantity.


bottom line: 

1)if your dog food has high meat content, it is from named meat meals, NOT named meats...if it makes you feel better seeing the named meats deceivingly high on the label, so be it.
2)if you really want your dog eating meat from fresh sources, you should not be looking at kibble to get you there.


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## wrangler1 (Jun 27, 2010)

buddy97 said:


> all of you kibble feeders are in fantasyland if you think the vast majority of meats in your food is from named meats. it IS from named meat meals. if named meats were anywhere near the top of the ingredient list after cooking, the amount of meat used pre processing would cause the manufacturers to charge many times more for that bag of food.
> 
> you might feel better seeing those named meats high on the ingredient list, but it is fools gold.
> 
> ...



Finally someone with a brain. Chicken meal, turkey meal & herring meal are the primary proteins in Orijen. All the fresh language is just marketing hype. 

Those meals are probably very high quality but if you think they are nice filets and muscle meats you are dreaming. Its amazing what a marketing con job Orijen is.


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## wrangler1 (Jun 27, 2010)

magicre said:


> as if the FDA is the be all end all of authorities...brought to you by the folks who approved fen-fen and ephedrine...
> 
> come on....just because it has capital letters doesn't make it the be all end all....
> 
> ...



Another person in pet food la la land. Another sucker.


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## wrangler1 (Jun 27, 2010)

magicre said:


> as if the FDA is the be all end all of authorities...brought to you by the folks who approved fen-fen and ephedrine...
> 
> come on....just because it has capital letters doesn't make it the be all end all....
> 
> ...


Here you go Einstein:

*"The high moisture content of chicken limits the amount that can be formulated into a complete finished food. Chicken is generally stored frozen to minimize microbial growth. The frozen chicken is thawed and made into slurry before adding to the mix. On the other hand, chicken meal can be used in a finished food at levels much greater than chicken. In addition, the same quantity of chicken meal provides roughly 4-5 times the nutrients as the same weight of chicken because of the differences in moisture. For example, 100 lbs of chicken meal provides 65 lbs of protein while 100 lbs of chicken provides only 18 lbs of protein"*"


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## buddy97 (Mar 29, 2010)

wrangler1 said:


> Finally someone with a brain. Chicken meal, turkey meal & herring meal are the primary proteins in Orijen. All the fresh language is just marketing hype.
> 
> Those meals are probably very high quality but if you think they are nice filets and muscle meats you are dreaming. Its amazing what a marketing con job Orijen is.


somewhat yes. they are providing the highest meat containing kibble they can at a price people will buy it...but that forces them to depend on named meat meals...just as every other high protein grainless kibble manufacturer.

orijen has stated their meals are made from mostly muscle meat....likely a higher grade than many use....

like i said kibble is not the place to look if you think your dog should be eating fresh meat.

if you feed a high protein grainless food, it will use named meat meals to achieve the high meat content...no way around it.


im surprised to see people on this board that still seem to think named meats listed 1,2 on ingredient list factor much into the real meat content of kibbles.


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## buddy97 (Mar 29, 2010)

if anyone here wants to post a list of ingredients for their high protein, high meat content kibble that achieves this primarily through named meats....id love to see it.......but i dont think it exists.


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## kevin bradley (Aug 9, 2009)

wrangler1 said:


> Here you go Einstein:
> 
> *"The high moisture content of chicken limits the amount that can be formulated into a complete finished food. Chicken is generally stored frozen to minimize microbial growth. The frozen chicken is thawed and made into slurry before adding to the mix. On the other hand, chicken meal can be used in a finished food at levels much greater than chicken. In addition, the same quantity of chicken meal provides roughly 4-5 times the nutrients as the same weight of chicken because of the differences in moisture. For example, 100 lbs of chicken meal provides 65 lbs of protein while 100 lbs of chicken provides only 18 lbs of protein"*"


Wrangler,

What are some of the brands you like that are currently on the market? Seriously, you seem to know quite alot. I'd like to hear brands you endorse. 

Also, do you think RAW feeding is better than feeding dry kibble?

thanks


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## wrangler1 (Jun 27, 2010)

buddy97 said:


> somewhat yes. they are providing the highest meat containing kibble they can at a price people will buy it...but that forces them to depend on named meat meals...just as every other high protein grainless kibble manufacturer.
> 
> orijen has stated their meals are made from mostly muscle meat....likely a higher grade than many use....
> 
> ...


It is shocking. Even the Moderator didn't know this. This is Dog Food 101. Many of these people give advice to others, that is the sad part.


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

wrangler1 said:


> Here you go Einstein:
> 
> *"The high moisture content of chicken limits the amount that can be formulated into a complete finished food. Chicken is generally stored frozen to minimize microbial growth. The frozen chicken is thawed and made into slurry before adding to the mix. On the other hand, chicken meal can be used in a finished food at levels much greater than chicken. In addition, the same quantity of chicken meal provides roughly 4-5 times the nutrients as the same weight of chicken because of the differences in moisture. For example, 100 lbs of chicken meal provides 65 lbs of protein while 100 lbs of chicken provides only 18 lbs of protein"*"


i think i'd rather feed the slurry.

why does everyone leave out the actual processing of these fine ingredients? 

no matter what orijen uses, they still process....


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## kevin bradley (Aug 9, 2009)

magicre said:


> i think i'd rather feed the slurry.
> 
> why does everyone leave out the actual processing of these fine ingredients?
> 
> no matter what orijen uses, they still process....


Magic,

Curious, and I'm not disputing what you say because I honestly don't know. 

But do you know of any studies that indicate "processed" food is horrible for us? Now I'm not talking about Twinkies type processed food. I understand that sugar and fat is bad but not necessarily bad because its been "processed." 

I get that it sounds clever that "processed" food is bad. Sure. An Apple from the earth is better than some processed food. Logic would lead me to agree with you. But just because something SOUNDs right doesn't make it so. 

My point is that I'm not sure what to believe any longer. I just saw a 10 year study that said Glucosamine was pretty much a joke. Now, all of the commercials, displays at the stores...etc...are a complete lie. 

I guess my question is...what is it in the processing that makes food so horrible? People are living longer than ever eating all of this processed food. Is bread bad? Bread is pretty processed. How about Cereal? Cereal seems pretty healthy and its processed. What about MILK? I read recently that milk does all kinds of good for the body....it goes through processing before hitting our lips. 

Confused and more bewildered every day.


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## Brodster (Oct 9, 2008)

3feathers said:


> So, I wonder if Champion is lying to us all?



That's scaring me, too.


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

well, without having to pull out my medical journals....and i'm not being condescending, really i'm not....

look at the nutritional data of an apple, all fresh and shiny, loaded with nutrients...even the ones that have travelled and have lost many of their nutrients from time of harvest through to getting it into your mouth.

then look at applesauce...look at the nutritional data...

compare the two.

when an apple is cooked, it loses anything it once had...and it didn't have much in the first place unless you ate it from the tree....

in order to make applesauce palatable, one has to add sugar....sugar is processed version of cane sugar...which grows as all plants do and then the sweetness is extracted from it...

then either citric acid is added or lemon or worse chemicals to preserve the applesauce.

now, which one is better for you?

a grain, such as oat groats...wonderful little buggers.....very nice for a cow...not so nice for us....why? because we've cooked the life out of it....

cooking destroys the good ness...

turning wheat into white flour? for this, you have to look up the process because the only way you're going to see this is to read it....

it can be said that if we went to a chicken house these days, we'd see things that would turn us into vegetarians....

or that our bananas are cloned...

one doesn't need a study to know that the closer a 'thing' is to its natural state, the better preserved are its nutrients....

the more said item, be it plant matter, protein matter goes through any kind of processing....the less nutrients are preserved...and therefore you, the human, or our dogs, since this is a dog forum....do not get what you need.

processed foods are directly related to obesity and adult onset diabetes....just turn on the news...it's not sensationalism....and look around you...

from when i was a child through now, i have NEVER seen the overweight children i am seeing now....

and diabetes and heart disease? 

we have the means, medically, to fix the heart, control what goes wrong; yet, more and more are going wrong....why? 

too much is being linked to diet and stress....both of which are in abundance for our dogs and for us.

while i am not suggesting that we all grow our own food, slaughter our own protein sources, i am saying that the more it looks like a chicken, most likely the better chance you have of getting from it all that you can get...

once it goes through any kind of processing, whether it's frozen, dehydrated, canned, or anything else we've thought of....my personal favourite is mc donalds chicken mc nuggets....which never resembled nor tasted like chicken...but man oh man, the fat they fried it in...well, let's just say it covered a whole bunch of sins...

why mess with nature? don't we have enough issues with what meat plants and fisheries and farmers do? 

i can't prove a negative to anyone.....one day, it becomes a d'uh moment...a truth so profoundly felt, that, in looking back, i wondered how i ever fed my dogs anything but home cooked or raw.....

and, while i believe that home cooked is acceptable.....i will never go back to kibble, having read how kibble is processed...

you can take the finest fish, the wildest venison, the most beautiful grass fed, grass finished beef.....once it's processed, it might as well have the nutrition of cardboard.

otherwise, common sense dictates that additives and nutrients would not have to be added in...as is the case with dog food, white bread and mac n cheese in a box.


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

kevin bradley said:


> Magic,
> 
> Curious, and I'm not disputing what you say because I honestly don't know.
> 
> ...


the simple answer is that processing sucks the life out of anything that touches it.

the simple answer is that humans are the only mammals on this earth that NEVER wean. question that.

the simple answer is that milk is responsible for more allergies and asthma than almost any other food source....it is a mucous producing pile of crap.

and when it's homogenised and pasteurised down to i think the number acceptable is 400,000 bacteria units per i don't remember....it's white nothingness...


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## wrangler1 (Jun 27, 2010)

kevin bradley said:


> Wrangler,
> 
> What are some of the brands you like that are currently on the market? Seriously, you seem to know quite alot. I'd like to hear brands you endorse.
> 
> ...


Overall I don't think exclusive raw feeding is better but I do add organ meats to what I feed, mostly green tripe & beef hearts. I also buy a mixed frozen product called Performance Dog so I have raw food available all the time. That is a complete frozen product.

The dry foods I like are:

Abady
Annamaet
Verus
Blackwood
Canine Caviar
Canidae
Kirkland (if you are on a tight budget)
Pinnacle
Precise


I use Abady and Annamaet depending on the time of the year or the dog. Abady is better during hunting & training because its very high calorie but very low mass. Abady woudl be a superior pick for any breed prone to bloat. Annamaet tends to keep weight on hard keepers a little better and its easier to feed. I like them both but some people might like Annamaet better because its a more typical food.

Why people go after Abady the way they do is a mystery to me. Super high protein, quality ingredients and lower carbs than all the grain-free kibbles. If you don't like the by-product meal you can get the one with chicken meal. It is 100% natural despite what people post about ethoxyquin. It says it right on the box!! I guess people like to think dogs should eat like people. I also think lard is the best fat for dogs. I will often buy leaf lard during the winter for the dogs. the negative reviews you see are either totally wrong on the facts or from people that have never used it.

It is also the best weaning food I have ever used.


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## kevin bradley (Aug 9, 2009)

thanks Magic and Wrangler. 

You both have me thinking. I'm still debating putting my dogs on real food from conversations with Magic. 

For me?...I'm ashamed of the way I eat. I'm the consummate fat american hitting drive thru's on the run. Running to Burger King between meetings at work....slamming Coke's and candy bars when I can't get to Burger King. 

Its shameful but true. At least I can say I'm not a liar thats about it. :wink::frown:

Wrangler,

I didn't mean to jab at you in the beginning. I do think you may want to tone things down a bit out here. But you do seem to know quite a lot. Theres just alot of info for the avg person to "digest." You hear different things every day and don't know what/who to believe. Fish meal good. Fish meal bad. Corn good. Corn not as bad as many say.....must feed RAW....don't need to feed RAW....the John Stossel jumps on TV saying nothing matters, just do whatever you want. It can lose a person quickly.


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## Brodster (Oct 9, 2008)

I'm working my way through this paper. I find it has merit in this discussion, especially in light of food processing and meat meals. 

Incestuous Pet Food Regulation Allows Consumers to Feed their Pets Ring Dings and Krispy Kremes


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## Brodster (Oct 9, 2008)

Kevin, 

You just described me as well. Diabetic fast-food junkie who agonizes over what to feed my dog while in the pizza shop every other night.


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## wrangler1 (Jun 27, 2010)

kevin bradley said:


> thanks Magic and Wrangler.
> 
> You both have me thinking. I'm still debating putting my dogs on real food from conversations with Magic.
> 
> ...



Look at facts and realize you are feeding an animal and not a person. I like feeding raw and there are good moral reasons to do so but dont unless you do it right. Something like Bravo Balance would be a good addition to kibble or Abady M&S.


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## kevin bradley (Aug 9, 2009)

Brodster said:


> Kevin,
> 
> You just described me as well. Diabetic fast-food junkie who agonizes over what to feed my dog while in the pizza shop every other night.




Brod, I probably value my Dogs lives more than my own. Sadly true. 

I keep saying I am going to start eating healthy but its honestly a job to plan everything out...get it all cooked, carry it to work....when I can run up to Burger King and eat for $3 off the value menu. 

My guys at home...I'd never feed them like that. Crazy.


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## kevin bradley (Aug 9, 2009)

wrangler1 said:


> Look at facts and realize you are feeding an animal and not a person. I like feeding raw and there are good moral reasons to do so but dont unless you do it right. Something like Bravo Balance would be a good addition to kibble or Abady M&S.



Wrangler, I do try to look at facts. Here is one...I thought I'd feed Candiae mainly because it looked ok on paper and was the cheapest available "decent" food. 

It literally set me back $400 on an emergency VET visit one Friday night and literally almost killed my little Beagle. Can I PROVE it was the Canidae? Well, it was the 3rd or 4th day of feeding and the first day she got a full serving of the Canidae. She vomitted so much over 24 hours that her skin hung off her belly because she was so dehydrated. I had to carry her limp 30 lb. body into my Vets office. Thankfully, having 3 Dogs, I have a pretty good relationship w/ my VET and he saw Itty(Bitty). 

She's been on Acana since with zero issues. And every measurable comparison and some intangible ones lead me to believe that Champion is a superior food company when compared to any others. 

You throw around the word "FACTS" like its some simple thing that we just miss because of laziness. 

This is a complex discussion and I can go haul out any number of canine nutritionists that would probably debate much of what you've said already. 

I'm not saying you're wrong...but there is so much freaking contradictory information in this topic that to throw around catch phrases like "seek out the truth" is just not possible.


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## wrangler1 (Jun 27, 2010)

kevin bradley said:


> Wrangler, I do try to look at facts. Here is one...I thought I'd feed Candiae mainly because it looked ok on paper and was the cheapest available "decent" food.
> 
> It literally set me back $400 on an emergency VET visit one Friday night and literally almost killed my little Beagle. Can I PROVE it was the Canidae? Well, it was the 3rd or 4th day of feeding and the first day she got a full serving of the Canidae. She vomitted so much over 24 hours that her skin hung off her belly because she was so dehydrated. I had to carry her limp 30 lb. body into my Vets office. Thankfully, having 3 Dogs, I have a pretty good relationship w/ my VET and he saw Itty(Bitty).
> 
> ...


I know lots of dogs that eat Canidae and its been on the market for years and years. I am sorry that happened but it was probably not the cause. Its 100% GTD so get your money back. Dont get romanced by Champion, a few years back that company made prodcuts for supermarkets and its had its share of recalls.


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## Jax's Mom (Jun 4, 2010)

I haven't read through all 7 pages but am I the only one that noticed they say their food has no wheat yet there is Wheat Flour listed in their ingredients?

Where do they think wheat flour comes from?

On another note, I had a foster dobe that came with a bag of Annamaet (the red bag) from his owner and his skin and coat were crap. Switched him to TOTW and much improved. From my experience with that, I wouldn't feed the stuff.


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## buddy97 (Mar 29, 2010)

wrangler1 said:


> Dont get romanced by Champion, a few years back............................. that company made prodcuts for supermarkets and its had its share of recalls.


nobody should trust any dog food manufacturer 100%..not even close. nevertheless, i still trust champion as much as i can trust a kibble manufacturer and believe they produce the highest quality kibble (such that kibble is).

do you have any links/verification that Champion was involved in making products for supermarkets?

Champion Foods LLC in New Boston, MI makes deli and pizza products for supermarkets.

Champion Pet Foods in Alberta, Canada...Champion Foods...not the same company....unless someone can prove they are.

i cant see it as credible to denigrade Champions Orijen/Acana line and praising the Anaemet line of food (particularly when they havent even given an ingredient list or nutrient profile for any of their new line.....their grain inclusive line is certainly nothing special.


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## wrangler1 (Jun 27, 2010)

buddy97 said:


> nobody should trust any dog food manufacturer 100%..not even close. nevertheless, i still trust champion as much as i can trust a kibble manufacturer and believe they produce the highest quality kibble (such that kibble is).
> 
> do you have any links/verification that Champion was involved in making products for supermarkets?
> 
> ...


I have been competing with dogs since i was 17, so 30 years. I have never seen any professional use Orijen. I was at Westminster the last two years and many breeders and handlers were joking about the food. I would say half the Huskies there ate Annamaet. Annamaet kibbles and the supplements Glycocharge & Impact are used by many racers, hunters & trialers. 

Before Orijen & Acana came out the company was a private label manufacturer for retailers including supermarkets in Canada. It has in fact had 3 recalls since 2003. The company has done a remarkable job changing itself but its a marketing company first and foremost, very slick for sure. Does anyone really believe that a dog needs marigolds, fennel seeds, peppermint & saskatoon berries? It is a total rip-off at $2lb.


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## wrangler1 (Jun 27, 2010)

Jax's Mom said:


> I haven't read through all 7 pages but am I the only one that noticed they say their food has no wheat yet there is Wheat Flour listed in their ingredients?
> 
> Where do they think wheat flour comes from?
> 
> On another note, I had a foster dobe that came with a bag of Annamaet (the red bag) from his owner and his skin and coat were crap. Switched him to TOTW and much improved. From my experience with that, I wouldn't feed the stuff.


Haha you feed TOTW? That is a Diamond food. How many pets have died eating Diamond foods. A few month back cats were dying and the company didn't even halve the decency to put the recall on the website. Please read the FDA investigation from the aflatoxin recall.


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## StellaLucyDesi (Oct 29, 2008)

I find it interesting that not many people (at least people on forums I'm on or people I talk to) feed Canine Caviar. It came into our store not too long ago. It sparked my interest for my dogs, but I wasn't sure. When Lucy was diagnosed with beginning kidney disease, I started researching for a low phosphorus food. I came upon CC Special Needs. It had low phosphorus, decent calorie content, dehydrated chicken, etc. I decided to go with it for my senior dogs and use the Lamb for my younger dog. Well, they have been eating it for about 3 months now. I like it a whole lot! And so do they. I also add meat toppers to it. There was also no transition period whatsoever. Stools are great. They only go 2-3 times a day. They eat the food just fine, too. They do have a grain free that has dehydrated venison in and the calorie content is decent. I haven't used it though. So far, this has been one of the best kibbles I've used.


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## ruckusluvr (Oct 28, 2009)

good god..... 

everyone knows what happened. the toxin was from molded corn. TOTW does not have corn. Diamond naturals do not have corn, chicken soup does not have corn in it.

i know it says some things about the company that it happened. but everyone makes mistakes. sadly dogs died.

its MUCH better than feeding your dogs Menu foods 

if it was not for diamond, on my income... do you realize i would have to feed PEDIGREE OR DOG CHOW??!!


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## SaltyDog (Mar 10, 2010)

wrangler1 said:


> I have been competing with dogs since i was 17, so 30 years. I have never seen any professional use Orijen. I was at Westminster the last two years and many breeders and handlers were joking about the food.



I'm not trying to defend Orijen or even say it is the best kibble ever, BUT....doesn't Pedigree sponsor that show? What do the breeders and handlers say about that?

I'm truly just curious is all....not stirring the pot :smile:


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## CorgiPaws (Mar 31, 2009)

SaltyDog said:


> I'm not trying to defend Orijen or even say it is the best kibble ever, BUT....doesn't Pedigree sponsor that show? What do the breeders and handlers say about that?
> 
> I'm truly just curious is all....not stirring the pot :smile:


A woman that used to work in my high school had a dog that won some contest and got to be in the Pedigree commercials. (this was somewhere around 7 years ago) He ate Wellness. Go figure.


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## wrangler1 (Jun 27, 2010)

SaltyDog said:


> I'm not trying to defend Orijen or even say it is the best kibble ever, BUT....doesn't Pedigree sponsor that show? What do the breeders and handlers say about that?
> 
> I'm truly just curious is all....not stirring the pot :smile:



LOL I don't know. My point is that dog professionals aren't impressed and these are people that have seen it all, every trend and every hot product.

The best pointer I ever saw was fed Bil-Jac its whole life. I know plenty of top dogs that eat Bil Jac. Dog food snobs laugh at Bil-Jac but its the only company that I know of that can get that much fresh protein in a dry food through a pretty sophisticated process.


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## ghostrunner (Mar 24, 2010)

wrangler1 said:


> The best pointer I ever saw was fed Bil-Jac its whole life. I know plenty of top dogs that eat Bil Jac. Dog food snobs laugh at Bil-Jac but its the only company that I know of that can get that much fresh protein in a dry food through a pretty sophisticated process.


Please enlighten me on this "pretty sophisticated process" you speak of. I'm truly curious about how kibble is made (see a prior post on baked kibble).


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## Jax's Mom (Jun 4, 2010)

wrangler1 said:


> Haha you feed TOTW? That is a Diamond food. How many pets have died eating Diamond foods. A few month back cats were dying and the company didn't even halve the decency to put the recall on the website. Please read the FDA investigation from the aflatoxin recall.



You are just truly offensive and combative. How interesting.

No, I do not feed TOTW. I used too. I am well aware that it is a Diamond food. Did you miss the part that TOTW is grain free or that aflatoxin grows on grains and corn? Now I feed a RAW diet to my cat and my dogs.

I don't like the food that you are so heavily trying to sell. Apparently others don't like it either. It's a free country and we are allowed to have likes and dislikes. I, personally, was not pleased with the results I saw in a fostered doberman.

I find it amusing that you chose to ignore the fact that they are selling their product as wheat free but that it has wheat flour in it.

If the only way you can sell your point is to run others down...perhaps you don't really have a point.


Annamaet Petfoods



> No Additives Annamaet contains no corn, *wheat*, glutens, soy products, chemical preservatives, dyes or artificial flavors.





> Ingredient List:
> Chicken Meal, Brown Rice, Chicken Fat (Preserved with Natural Mixed Tocopherols), Pearled Barley, Rolled Oats, *Wheat Flour*,....


 Perhaps someone just got


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## stajbs (Jun 5, 2010)

Wrangler1,
Wow, been away from the computer since last evening so could not respond until now to your reply to me. I am very well aware of Mr. Downey's record. How could I not be we were in the same sled dog club for years and I have always kept an eye on his performance. His dogs have done well, he has had success, as have others who feed Annamaet to their dogs in the sled dog world. I do not believe I bashed Annamaet as a food, in fact I stated I would much rather see people be willing and able to feed Annamaet, than Pedigree and Gravy Train and other grocery store brands. 

My hang up was personal and I will admit that. Both myself and a good friend and person I know he respects in NY discussed my dogs problem and he and his staff just did not want to admit rice could be the culprit. When I switched my boy to grain free foods he did well. As I changed over this particular dogs food to grain free and made some changes to what I fed some of my other dogs due to senior health issues I was ordering less Annamaet. That is when I was suddenly dirt in his eyes. No skin off my back actually, I was doing what needed to be done for my dogs. I just feel as the company grew they lost the persoanl touch. 

As another poster has stated Annamaet has jumped onto the grain free bandwagon because it is good business practice in part I am sure. It is just odd considering how adamant he had been about grain in food in general.

More power to the people who have success with Annamaet. Shoot if I was in a pinch and could not get my usual food and there was a blizzard, I would slide my way to my local supply store and feed it again because the dogs I have now would probably do fine with it.


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## 1605 (May 27, 2009)

wrangler1 said:


> you are looking at the wrong section of the website, look under:
> 
> Annamaet Petfoods
> 
> ...


I have a hunting dog and I totally disagree about corn. My dog is not a cow! He's not a ruminate or an herbivore; he can't properly digest it. Why would I feed him CORN? 

Also, I'm not a fan of beet pulp in dog food.

IMHO the protein levels a pretty low for any working/hunting dog.


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## stajbs (Jun 5, 2010)

I know when we were running our dogs a lot, and in colder weather we always added fat, and also meat to meals. During those hard working times and when the weather was bitter cold they definitely needed the extra protein and fat. We did this when feeding Annamaet,and Eagle Pack Holistic Selects, Innova etc. It's no longer necessary for us to add the extra fat because all dogs live inside full time now, and the dogs are now 10 and 11 and enjoy bikejoring/short sledding runs but they are no longer working hard, but we still lightly cook meat of several varieties to mix with the kibble. OMG did I say kibble, lol, I am just too paranoid to go raw. I get hung up with CAFO farming and the quality of meat in this country, and all our meat is purchased from a local butcher and I know the suppliers of the meat.


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## PUNKem733 (Jun 12, 2009)

wrangler1 said:


> I have been competing with dogs since i was 17, so 30 years. I have never seen any professional use Orijen. I was at Westminster the last two years and many breeders and handlers were joking about the food. I would say half the Huskies there ate Annamaet. Annamaet kibbles and the supplements Glycocharge & Impact are used by many racers, hunters & trialers.
> 
> Before Orijen & Acana came out the company was a private label manufacturer for retailers including supermarkets in Canada. It has in fact had 3 recalls since 2003. The company has done a remarkable job changing itself but its a marketing company first and foremost, very slick for sure. Does anyone really believe that a dog needs marigolds, fennel seeds, peppermint & saskatoon berries? It is a total rip-off at $2lb.


This has to be Claybuster. I rememeber he tried to make a big deal about the percentage of dandelions in Orijen several months back.


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## buddy97 (Mar 29, 2010)

wrangler1 said:


> The company (Champion Pet Foods) has done a remarkable job changing itself but *its a marketing company first and foremost*.


i dont quite understand this claim about Champion Pet Foods.

what exactly is Champion Pet Foods marketing or making other than the only thing they make: orijen and acana dog food????

a marketing company would be involved in so much more than only making dog food at their own facility...heck they wont even produce canned food because they dont have the ability to produce it in their own facility.


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

stajbs said:


> I know when we were running our dogs a lot, and in colder weather we always added fat, and also meat to meals. During those hard working times and when the weather was bitter cold they definitely needed the extra protein and fat. We did this when feeding Annamaet,and Eagle Pack Holistic Selects, Innova etc. It's no longer necessary for us to add the extra fat because all dogs live inside full time now, and the dogs are now 10 and 11 and enjoy bikejoring/short sledding runs but they are no longer working hard, but we still lightly cook meat of several varieties to mix with the kibble. OMG did I say kibble, lol, I am just too paranoid to go raw. I get hung up with CAFO farming and the quality of meat in this country, and all our meat is purchased from a local butcher and I know the suppliers of the meat.


i don't know where you live in PA...but i grew up there....we used to go to Lancaster county and buy whole cows....we would pick them out....that and chickens and pigs....and the amish/mennonite community who ran one of the biggest farmer's markets in the country would slaughter and prepare exactly how we wanted it and it was so much cheaper than going to a butcher....

we knew every detail about the cow's feeding and finishing, how it was butchered, etc....

i'm not trying to convince you to go raw...believe me, i know what a decision it is.....just sayin'....and if there is a raw food co op near where you live, i'm betting you could make a deal with the farmers there....even if you home cooked.....i wish i knew then what i know now...my dogs would have been easily and cheaply fed with local foodstuff.....whether i had gone the route of cooking or raw.

here, everyone's hurting, especially the farmers....we get some very nice deals...with our co op...


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## stajbs (Jun 5, 2010)

Thanks Magicre good point. We are a bit over an hour from Lancaster PA. I had not thought about that. Fortunately we just hooked up with a local farmer raising beef cattle, chickens and pigs so we just struck a deal with him or I would do as you suggest. I may still consider it for more variety. I think I am developmentally challenged about feeding raw, lol, but we do enjoy and feel comfortable cooking for our dogs. I do have a high degree of respect for those of you feeding raw though!

We are also considerring raising chickens on our 1.333 acres. Just finished browsing through hatchery info on tons of different kinds of chicken raised for meat and egg laying. Our dogs may be going stir crazy next year if we do this. Siberians and chickens an interesting mix. Our dogs are physically contained at all times due to the breeds desire to run, but oh my their prey drive does kick in quickly around birds and other small animals. The chicken coop will need to be siberian proof too or I may find myself getting past the whole raw feeding thing without even trying. lol


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

stajbs said:


> Thanks Magicre good point. We are a bit over an hour from Lancaster PA. I had not thought about that. Fortunately we just hooked up with a local farmer raising beef cattle, chickens and pigs so we just struck a deal with him or I would do as you suggest. I may still consider it for more variety. I think I am developmentally challenged about feeding raw, lol, but we do enjoy and feel comfortable cooking for our dogs. I do have a high degree of respect for those of you feeding raw though!
> 
> We are also considerring raising chickens on our 1.333 acres. Just finished browsing through hatchery info on tons of different kinds of chicken raised for meat and egg laying. Our dogs may be going stir crazy next year if we do this. Siberians and chickens an interesting mix. Our dogs are physically contained at all times due to the breeds desire to run, but oh my their prey drive does kick in quickly around birds and other small animals. The chicken coop will need to be siberian proof too or I may find myself getting past the whole raw feeding thing without even trying. lol


that's about how far we were from lancaster, too...it was well worth the trip...

i wasn't trying to get you to feed raw.....cooked, as far as i'm concerned, is the next best thing....and if you're a kibble feeder, i used to be one of those too.....

but, if you raise chickens and huskies are well known break out artists, it should be amusing to see how that works out.....let us know LOL


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## GermanSheperdlover (Nov 15, 2009)

*wrangler1, is Clay and he has been arguing on the home page again under the name, lawrence. He is a salesman for abady. Notice how he ALWAYS quotes a lying website and then demands you give him scientific proof claiming everything on the net is a lie. He even thinks lard as a main ingredient is good for dogs. This clown is really something.
Jess quoted all the names he uses.*

Abady Dog Food


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## wrangler1 (Jun 27, 2010)

GermanSheperdlover said:


> *wrangler1, is Clay and he has been arguing on the home page again under the name, lawrence. He is a salesman for abady. Notice how he ALWAYS quotes a lying website and then demands you give him scientific proof claiming everything on the net is a lie. He even thinks lard as a main ingredient is good for dogs. This clown is really something.
> Jess quoted all the names he uses.*
> 
> Abady Dog Food


far from it what a loser you are


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## ruckusluvr (Oct 28, 2009)

wow... "loser"
so, its came to this heh.
grow up


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## RawFedDogs (Jun 16, 2008)

wrangler1 said:


> Maybe this link from Canidae will help you understand this most basic fact:
> 
> CANIDAE® Pet Foods: Meat versus Meal in Dog Food


Sorry, I don't do my research by reading promotional material from dog food companies. The thing these companies do very well is self promotion. Always be wary of information given to you by someone who stands to make money from any decisions you make based on his information.


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## DaneMama (Jun 27, 2008)

wrangler1 said:


> far from it what a loser you are


You've been given a warning for name calling. I recommend you keep your posts respectful and clean, especially if you want to be listened to and respected on here.


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## RawFedDogs (Jun 16, 2008)

kevin bradley said:


> But do you know of any studies that indicate "processed" food is horrible for us?


I'm sure there are some but I haven't researched this area. I know most every nutritionist in the world will recommend fresh whole foods over processed foods every time.



> My point is that I'm not sure what to believe any longer. I just saw a 10 year study that said Glucosamine was pretty much a joke. Now, all of the commercials, displays at the stores...etc...are a complete lie.


I used to have an arthritic hip. I took large doses of glucosamine for a year or more. I couldn't tell the difference. I had 2 Goldens w/ bad hips and gave them glucosamine. My wife swore they got better ... I couldn't tell any difference. Abby, my present 10yo Great Dane has a bad hip and I give her 6,000mg glusosamine/day. I can't tell its doing her any good. She still limps. So in my experience, I haven't been impressed with it.



> I guess my question is...what is it in the processing that makes food so horrible?


High temp cooking and preservatives as well as the ingredients. Check the ingredients in a loaf of bread. THere is more stuff in a loaf of bread than a bag of many kibbles. 

I saw an nutritionist in tv a while ago who said you should always pick the foods with the fewest number of ingredients. Ingredients are used for many reasons ... none of those reasons are your health.



> People are living longer than ever eating all of this processed food.


I don't think so.



> Is bread bad?


I have read that it is. I have cut most of it out of my own diet. Again, check the ingredients in a loaf of bread.



> How about Cereal?


Nope, cereal is bad.



> What about MILK?


Humans are the only animals that drink milk after weening age. That tells me its really not necessary. Don't know if it's good or bad. Whole milk is bad because of high fat content. Skim milk, not so much so. I don't have anything to base that on.



> I read recently that milk does all kinds of good for the body....it goes through processing before hitting our lips.


You hear that from the dairy associations. Not a good place to get that kind of information.


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## CorgiPaws (Mar 31, 2009)

> People are living longer than ever eating all of this processed food.


RFD already responded to this post, but I felt the need to point out... 
this generation is the first expected to NOT outlive their parents. Sad, really.


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## RCTRIPLEFRESH5 (Feb 11, 2010)

danemama08 said:


> You've been given a warning for name calling. I recommend you keep your posts respectful and clean, especially if you want to be listened to and respected on here.


well the guy was being called out so i can understand why he name called. i agree with buddy. meat meals are the only way youre dogs kibble will be high in meats.


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## dobesgalore (Oct 21, 2009)

RCTRIPLEFRESH5 said:


> well the guy was being called out so i can understand why he name called. i agree with buddy. meat meals are the only way youre dogs kibble will be high in meats.


It's fine if you agree with buddy. I agree with Natalie, evrybody needs to be respectful in order to gain respect. She's tring to keep order to avoid all out arguments that can get nasty. Sometimes "reminders" are needed.


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## RawFedDogs (Jun 16, 2008)

RCTRIPLEFRESH5 said:


> well the guy was being called out so i can understand why he name called.


I can't and it's not going to be tolerated.



> i agree with buddy. meat meals are the only way youre dogs kibble will be high in meats.


That would be true if there were actually a lot of meat in the meals. However there is very little meat in them. They are mostly bone and connective tissue. The meat has already been removed for human consumption. That's where the money is.


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## xxshaelxx (Mar 8, 2010)

wrangler1 said:


> If you had a dog that needed to hunts for 8 or more hours and run 35 - 40 miles in a day you would know what I mean.


Oh, I guess wolves don't run great distances? I guess they don't have to exert a lot of energy in bringing down large prey? They don't travel hundreds of miles to find territories.



> They may travel 50 miles or more each day in search of food, and they are superbly designed for a life on the move.


International Wolf Center Learn - Frequently Asked Questions about Wolves

And yet...I don't see them eating any corn. *shrugs*



RawFedDogs said:


> Chicken meal is the 2nd cheapest product to come out of a chicken processing plant, just behind chicken by product meal.


Hey, RFD, let's not forget that chicken-by-product-meal is what they're using in some of these foods. :wink:



wrangler1 said:


> You are the moderator?


I'm at a loss as to why this fact is always brought up. Moderator is not a title of all-knowing, but a title of keeping people in line and making sure fights don't break out among people. -.-



wrangler1 said:


> Finally someone with a brain.


It really isn't called for, insinuating that some people here are mindless morons. Why is it that people (like you) on here throw around words like "moderator" as if the mods are supposed to know every last waking detail about dog nutrition, food, etc., as well as petty insults such as this? It does nothing for your credibility, and actually does the exact opposite, making you look like the fool. No one here insinuated that you are stupid, perhaps that you have been lead wrongly, so I wouldn't suggest going around making such insults.



wrangler1 said:


> Another person in pet food la la land. Another sucker.


*cough* Couldn't you be considered the same?




wrangler1 said:


> Here you go Einstein:


All this spice!!! What ever happened to sugar?!



kevin bradley said:


> People are living longer than ever eating all of this processed food.


Actually, it isn't processed foods that people are living longer on. It's a better healthcare system. People can smoke a pack a day and drink twelve beers a night and live into their nineties. Is smoking/drinking to that quantity healthy for you?



wrangler1 said:


> I guess people like to think dogs should eat like people


No...dogs should eat like...dogs, and that's what pretty much everyone here believes, whether they are raw or kibble feeders. We all want to get as close to their primal diet as we possibly can, because that's what their systems were built for.



kevin bradley said:


> I keep saying I am going to start eating healthy but its honestly a job to plan everything out...get it all cooked, carry it to work....when I can run up to Burger King and eat for $3 off the value menu.


I personally like me some apples! XD Grab a couple and shove 'em in your lunch box. No cooking, no unnecessary carbs, no fat and grease! Remember, an apple a day keeps the doctor at bay! hahaha.



wrangler1 said:


> far from it what a loser you are


WOW! REALLY?!



You know, if I were a kibble feeder, I would MUCH prefer a food with all named meat sources (no meat meal) and really high protein/meat content, but...that's just not possible, now is it, considering the food would be outrageously priced. Named meat is better in comparison to meat meal, obviously, so to have it placed as the number one ingredient, even if you take all of the water out and it ends up being 7th or 8th, makes it more valuable as a meat source, because it's not placed 3rd or 4th, which would make it more like 13th or 14th (all just baseless, random numbers for examples). It is illogical for dog food companies to NOT use meat meal products, because then they would go out of business quicker than it took to start up the business. I bet that if dog food companies, and I mean the reputable ones that people trust, could, they would be all over using as much meat as possible, rather than meat meal. And if some people haven't noticed, the really good dog foods generally have a named meat source followed by a meat meal source as second.


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## buddy97 (Mar 29, 2010)

RawFedDogs said:


> I can't and it's not going to be tolerated.
> 
> 
> 
> That would be true if there were actually a lot of meat in the meals. However there is very little meat in them. They are mostly bone and connective tissue. The meat has already been removed for human consumption. .


again there is not a standard definiton for named meat meals. ill fully admit they wouldnt be as desirable as named fresh meats made into kibble, but the reality is the amount of fresh meat that makes up any portion of any kibble is tiny.

when orijen has put in writing that most of their named meat meals are made from muscle meat, that doesnt mean bone and connective tissue to me.

nevertheless, recognizing all high protein grainless kibbles depend heavily on named meat meals, i dont pretend feeding my dog kibble is providing him with any significant high quality meat product...no matter how good some meat meals may appear.


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## DaneMama (Jun 27, 2008)

RCTRIPLEFRESH5 said:


> well the guy was being called out so i can understand why he name called.


It's called being the bigger person and not stooping to the low levels of name calling no matter what situation one is in. People have been calling wrangler1 out since his/her first post for numerous reasons...and correct me if I'm wrong but he/she has still failed at introducing themselves, answering peoples questions and being all around offensive to most people here.

If people here were actually bullying him (which wouldn't be allowed in the first place) he/she still has no ground to name call. That goes for anyone here.


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## jeffk1 (Jul 15, 2010)

*Annamaet Grain Free Ingredients*

The ingredients for the three new Annamaet Grain Free formulas can be viewed at 
Discount Annamaet Grain Free Dog Food - WWW.PFWH.COM


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## kevin bradley (Aug 9, 2009)

jeffk1 said:


> The ingredients for the three new Annamaet Grain Free formulas can be viewed at
> Discount Annamaet Grain Free Dog Food - WWW.PFWH.COM



This food is more expensive per lb. than Orijen. 

No prayer. Zero.


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## harrkim120 (Feb 2, 2010)

There's a whole lot of potato in those bad boys......


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## kevin bradley (Aug 9, 2009)

harrkim120 said:


> There's a whole lot of potato in those bad boys......



Cool looking graphics though. 

Must have a good Graphics company.:smile:


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## harrkim120 (Feb 2, 2010)

kevin bradley said:


> Cool looking graphics though.
> 
> Must have a good Graphics company.:smile:


I don't like them...I can't say the names. LOL :tongue:


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

watercress?
LOL

don't get me started....there's a whole bunch of un necessary AND a whole bunch of crap in this stuff...

and i don't like the graphics either....firstly, this isn't graphic...it's a throwback to 1998...
and i do this for a living.


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## kevin bradley (Aug 9, 2009)

magicre said:


> watercress?
> LOL
> 
> don't get me started....there's a whole bunch of un necessary AND a whole bunch of crap in this stuff...
> ...


Mag,

Isn't art somewhat in the eye of the beholder? :wink:

sounds kind of ridgid.


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

kevin bradley said:


> Mag,
> 
> Isn't art somewhat in the eye of the beholder? :wink:
> 
> sounds kind of ridgid.




call me Re (pronounced Ree)

yes. art is most definitely in the eye of the beholder.

but this isn't art. it's a website and there are components of design necessary for advertising and marketing purposes....for this market.

we're not going to the guggenheim.....this is dog food et al....and it's speaking to an audience it cannot see...so there are principles of marketing that are necessary for the design....

i'm not going into detail about what's wrong with the page.....loyal customers won't care....and in all truth, the design is not germaine to this discussion...

but, there's stuff in their food....i'm one of the ones who looks things up...every single ingredient, ad nauseum....the more i read, the more i know..and the more i know, the less impressed i am about watercress being in the ingredient list...


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## cprcheetah (Jul 14, 2010)

What is the purpose of having lettuce in their foods?


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## DaneMama (Jun 27, 2008)

cprcheetah said:


> What is the purpose of having lettuce in their foods?


To make is *seem* more healthy to the consumer since lettuce is healthy for humans. The company thinks all their consumers are dumb enough to think that since lettuce is healthy for us humans it must be for a dog 

So, its purpose is marketing...pure and simple.


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## cprcheetah (Jul 14, 2010)

That is just sad....the only lettuce I will buy is Romaine, Red & Green Leaf because it has better nutritional value than plain iceberg, I know my cats love eating lettuce, but it's not something I do and would feed them on a regular basis and certainly not in dog food.


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## kevin bradley (Aug 9, 2009)

danemama08 said:


> To make is *seem* more healthy to the consumer since lettuce is healthy for humans. The company thinks all their consumers are dumb enough to think that since lettuce is healthy for us humans it must be for a dog
> 
> So, its purpose is marketing...pure and simple.



Natalie,

I'm not a Nutritionist, but I don't think lettuce offers much nutritional value for humans even. I think its pretty neutral...not much different than drinking a glass of water.


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## DaneMama (Jun 27, 2008)

kevin bradley said:


> Natalie,
> 
> I'm not a Nutritionist, but I don't think lettuce offers much nutritional value for humans even. I think its pretty neutral...not much different than drinking a glass of water.


Depends on the lettuce. Some are more nutritious than others, iceburg is the equivalent of water but it does have fiber! Romaine, green and red leaf, and other varieties have more nutrition to them, but you have to chew it up well to get much from it other than the fiber.

***typed as she's munching on her salad***


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## kevin bradley (Aug 9, 2009)

danemama08 said:


> Depends on the lettuce. Some are more nutritious than others, iceburg is the equivalent of water but it does have fiber! Romaine, green and red leaf, and other varieties have more nutrition to them, but you have to chew it up well to get much from it other than the fiber.



yes, I think thats what I've read also. 


I was just thinking of the typical lettuce from the salad bar :wink:

more importantly.....:wink:
what kind of company would try to fool us like this?


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## DaneMama (Jun 27, 2008)

kevin bradley said:


> more importantly.....:wink:
> what kind of company would try to fool us like this?


To be honest, all companies that create kibble do but the better ones realize what a dog really needs to eat...like Natura. Which is why they create their foods to be the most appropriate for the dog even though they still do throw in stuff that is what I call "fluff" to make it seem more healthy.


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

kevin bradley said:


> Natalie,
> 
> I'm not a Nutritionist, but I don't think lettuce offers much nutritional value for humans even. I think its pretty neutral...not much different than drinking a glass of water.


au contraire, mon ami....

romaine lettuce ...is a super food....i direct you here:

WHFoods: Romaine lettuce

but i would never in a million years give my dog watercress as it is a goitrogen and can affect thyroid function.


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