# Food for Old Arthritic Labs



## SandyChips (Jul 25, 2012)

My dog Sandy is a 10 year old Labrador Retriever who has hip dysplasia in both hips. Keep in mind that Sandy is pretty arthritic (she will limp after a 2 mile walk.)

Last week, she had a check up at the vet. The vet is very nice, but he didn't seem too impressed by the mixed diet of Orijen Adult and Regional Red I feed her. When I told him how Sandy is often hesitant to walk upstairs, the vet suggested that we switch her over to Hill's Prescription Diet j/d Canine Mobility. 

Looking at the ingredients, that diet seems to be nothing special to me. I have heard some things about Hill's on this site, none of them being positive. *Should I follow the advice of the veterinarian and switch Sandy to Hill's?* Would this food really help my dog's joint issues? What is the ingredient that improves canine mobility? Lastly, why do vets praise companies like Hill's? hwell:


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## lauren43 (Feb 6, 2011)

I believe most hills products do do what they are meant to do. However they are not any type of dog food I'd feed my dog. They can be great as a maintenance diet but I wouldn't feed them long term. 

What are you doing otherwise? I know there are supplements out there recommended for arthritis, have you tried any of those? What about water/laser/acupuncture therapies?


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## FBarnes (Feb 17, 2013)

People say green lipped mussel is the best thing for joints. And like lauren43 said, non-medical treatments are sometimes the best thing for a dog. Laser therapy regenerates cells and healing with no side effects. It can cause a miraculous change in arthritic dogs. Water therapy, great for joint health with no weight - just like people. Acupuncture - haven't tried it but some people say it's worked miracles.

Give your dog whole raw sardines or anchovies for good omega threes - if you can't stand to do that, give her sardines in water with no salt added. 

A good diet - NOT Science Diet please. It's horrible. You can give your dog natural supplements, or even prescription supplements like Dasequin, and keep her on a decent food.

Vets make up to 30% of their profit from prescription products they sell in their waiting room. If a human doctor did that, he would be in jail. Dog Food Advisor rates one of the Hill's products one of the worst seven dog foods available, and most of them are not much better. And it's one of the pricier foods - lots of $$ for a very low quality food. Less than worthless.


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## SmoothWire (Apr 18, 2013)

You need to keep this dog thin and fit. How tall is this dog and how much does she weigh? Also, tone muscles are important in the fight against joint disease, so regular exercise is critical. Swimming especially because it there is no weight on the joints.

Perna is excellent for joint pain and inflammation and probably the best supplement is Annamaet Endure. This supplement comes from a company with a lot of experience with working dogs.

I would only switch foods if your dog is overweight. Orijen is rather high in fat.


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## Georgiapeach (Jan 24, 2011)

Definitely make sure the dog is thin - excess weight is very bad for labs, who tend towards arthritis and hip dysplasia, as it is. I'd also give her Cosequin DS plus MSM, and also a fish oil capsule and a vitamin E capsule daily. It works wonders for my minipoo, who has grade 4 luxating patellas (should be needing surgery)! I had a lab (RIP Chipper!) who lived to be 14 1/2 when fed a grain free kibble and given the supplements I mentioned above. We kept him on the thin side from the time he was a puppy. We previously had a lab that we adopted from my niece, who was VERY obese when we got him, and despite getting him down from 101 lb. to 80 lb. (we couldn't get him any thinner, no matter how hard we tried - before the days of grain free kibble, when Science Diet was considered a good kibble...), he only lived to be 11 (RIP Bluto!) - succumbing to arthritis of the spine.

I'd recommend Wellness Core Reduced Fat. It worked miracles on my MIL's elderly cockapoo. It's grain free, good protein, and low fat. Most dogs like it. As long as your dog can eat a chicken based kibble, it should be fine.

At this point in time, you may want to ask your vet to give Sandy some Rimadyl or something similar to give her some relief.


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## riddick4811 (Nov 2, 2011)

I would not feed Hills. I would reduce his weight, even if he isn't overweight, you want him lean. Less weight=easier time walking. I have had good results with Annamaet Lean. It is grain free and high protein which is good to help maintain his muscles, but low fat to keep his weight in check. I would add fish oil and joint supplements. Also if you have a place for him to swim, it would be better than walking!


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## SandyChips (Jul 25, 2012)

Sandy has been on Rimadyl for about a year now and is the perfect weight for a small lab - 55 lbs. I plan to keep her that way! :thumb: Yes, I was expecting that response about Hill's - just needed some reassurance. She has been maintaining weight and is still moving well on her Orijen mix, so I plan to keep that part of her diet. Also, I have found that beef trachea is natural source of chondroitin sulfate. :noidea:

And Sandy loves swimming, but I have just recently moved and no longer have access to the pond where she used to swim. 

I am debating between what sort of supplements to use. There are so many out there! 
Could I get some suggestions on types of joint supplements? Fish supplements? Vitamin E supplements? :whip:


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## Dobelover (Mar 14, 2013)

You could try Sasha's blend..it has green lipped mussels in it. Rimadyl works well, so does Metacam. I used Adequan injections on my old lab..that worked EXTREMELY well. Plus, she did get glucosamine/chondroitin twice daily. Hope you find something that works well for her! All I know is that Adequan had fantastic results for my girl in her old age  I'm in the field and I've seen Sahas's blend work well too and adequan used in many other old arthritic dogs with great results. Good luck!


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## FBarnes (Feb 17, 2013)

Personally, I would swap the Rimadyl for laser therapy. I am surprised your vet has kept her on it so long. Senior dogs are more prone to the side effects, and Pfizer's own studies show that Labradors are more susceptible than other breeds. In addition, some studies show that long term use makes them more prone - these can be very serious, including liver damage and death. Your dog seems a likely candidate for something bad to happen from the Rimadyl.

If you continue, you should be hypervigilant to the signs of the side effects: The Senior Dogs Project


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## PDXdogmom (Jun 30, 2010)

As far as a supplement, I highly recommend Annamaet Endure. It has green lipped mussel, glucosamine, chondroitan, and vitamin C. I'd Also add some salmon oil. Supplements - Endure


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## NewfieAussie (Feb 19, 2013)

Should Annamaet Endure also be used as a prophylactic arthritis supplement?

My Newfoundland is three years old. Since this giant breed frequently seems to get arthritis would giving her Annamaet Endure be a wise thing to start her on now?


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## SmoothWire (Apr 18, 2013)

NewfieAussie said:


> Should Annamaet Endure also be used as a prophylactic arthritis supplement?
> 
> My Newfoundland is three years old. Since this giant breed frequently seems to get arthritis would giving her Annamaet Endure be a wise thing to start her on now?


My good friend is a top short distance racer in New England and a really good bench breeder of SH's as well and she starts them at 2 years olds, but she runs the snot out of them. Her lead dog is 11 and all her dogs get Annamaet Ultra from cradle to grave.


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## PDXdogmom (Jun 30, 2010)

NewfieAussie said:


> Should Annamaet Endure also be used as a prophylactic arthritis supplement?
> 
> My Newfoundland is three years old. Since this giant breed frequently seems to get arthritis would giving her Annamaet Endure be a wise thing to start her on now?


Although I'm giving the Annamaet Endure to my 12 year old golden, I'm still debating about whether to start it with my 5 year old lab. She shows no arthritic problems at all and is moderately active. While I don't think it would do any harm to give it to younger non-symptomatic dogs, I don't know if there is any validation to doing so.


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

i don't know anything about food recommends, but my friend uses water therapy for her dog and my other friend uses laser.

we give our old girl In Clover Connectin, salmon oil capsules, green lipped mussel, for now. 

when the pain increases, we will look into wapiti labs longevity and mobicosa.


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## Dr Dolittle (Aug 2, 2013)

Sandy, The reason your vet recommended j/d is because he probably has seen how well it works! I know all the therapeutic diets out there and of the 4 vet diets for arthritis, j/d is the best. Basically it provides an incredible amount of Omega 3's to help reduce the pain and inflammation of arthritis. n fact, in clinical studies, it worked as well as any NSAID but it took longer, about 30 days. but the real magic of j/d is that it was formulated to actually turn down the expression of the genes that are producing the enzymes destroying your dog's cartilage! You could look up Nutrigenomics, the study of how nutrients affect gene expression. Hills and Purina have been studying it, as well as human medicine. Pretty amazing stuff actually! That is something no NSAID can do. Most orthopedic specialist who have no stake in the pet food sales or promotion, heartily recommend it. in fact, it is virtually impossible to feed enough supplements to get the amt of Omega 3's your dog will get in j/d. The other problem with feeding supplements is the ratio of Omega 3s to 6s. Omega 6's are great for skin and coat, but they increase inflammation, not good for your dog. Canine j/d is only one of two diets in the world that have more 3's then 6's. Normal food, no matter the quality will always be much higher in 6's, working against your supplements. Other therapies have been very useful as well, but again, you want to stop the damaging process. Canine j/d will do that in 30 to 45 days. If not by then, it won't work. Added glucosamine and chon is another good thing but supplements are totally unregulated so you have to go with trusted brands with research to back up their claims. Just know this. Their is not one study out there proving added glucosamine/ chon to a diet is beneficial. in fact, food companies can't add enough to be therapeutic, by law! That needs to be supplemented. anine j/d to reduce the pain and inflammation and perhaps Dasaquin to help the body repair and you have a simple, safe, and a bit more affordable remedy. I don't like drugs but those NSAIDS are nice for immediate relief but not the healthiest long term. The other reason you old guy would do well on j/d is it has an excellent geriatric profile as far as protein, phosphorus, and sodium, nutrients you want to control as your pet ages, now that hypertension, kidney disease, and other age related disease risks increase. Some of the foods mentioned on this thread are far from healthy for a geriatric dog! You don't want to buy into the idea of feeding your old guy like a wolf! He would be dead already! There is no geriatrics in the wild! Anyway, my best to your old canine companion and you. God Bless.


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## Dr Dolittle (Aug 2, 2013)

SandyChips said:


> My dog Sandy is a 10 year old Labrador Retriever who has hip dysplasia in both hips. Keep in mind that Sandy is pretty arthritic (she will limp after a 2 mile walk.)
> 
> Last week, she had a check up at the vet. The vet is very nice, but he didn't seem too impressed by the mixed diet of Orijen Adult and Regional Red I feed her. When I told him how Sandy is often hesitant to walk upstairs, the vet suggested that we switch her over to Hill's Prescription Diet j/d Canine Mobility.
> 
> Looking at the ingredients, that diet seems to be nothing special to me. I have heard some things about Hill's on this site, none of them being positive. *Should I follow the advice of the veterinarian and switch Sandy to Hill's?* Would this food really help my dog's joint issues? What is the ingredient that improves canine mobility? Lastly, why do vets praise companies like Hill's? hwell:


Test! Why can't I post reply?


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## Unosmom (May 3, 2009)

I would stay away from anything made by Hills, its garbage. You're better off adding some high quality supplements to the food youre already feeding. Some good suggestions already, I've seen good results with turmeric, green lipped mussel, as well as fish oil.


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## Shamrockmommy (Sep 10, 2009)

I use wholistic pet joint care. It's a granular supplement and helps my Darby with hip dysplasia quite a lot. I also use DGP and adequan. Keep him on a grain free food as grains are inflammatory and will worsen those already sore hips. 

I don't ruse science diet,even if it does as its supposed to. I don't want to deal with the poor coats
, dandruff and copious amounts of poo from it.


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## Dr Dolittle (Aug 2, 2013)

Unosmom said:


> I would stay away from anything made by Hills, its garbage. You're better off adding some high quality supplements to the food youre already feeding. Some good suggestions already, I've seen good results with turmeric, green lipped mussel, as well as fish oil.


Garbage..........well this is a forum of ideas and opinions so I guess that response is as good as any! LOL! You might be right. Disregard all those facts in favor of a garbage statement, though a bit vague. I suppose we all base our opinions on something, don't we?


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## LilasMom (Mar 10, 2012)

Dr Dolittle said:


> Garbage..........well this is a forum of ideas and opinions so I guess that response is as good as any! LOL! You might be right. Disregard all those facts in favor of a garbage statement, though a bit vague. I suppose we all base our opinions on something, don't we?


I base my opinions on the fact that the ingredients are not species appropriate.


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## BeagleCountry (Jan 20, 2012)

Hills j/d Canine Mobility Ingredients:

Whole Grain Corn, Chicken By-Product Meal, Flaxseed, Soybean Mill Run, Brewers Rice, Soybean Meal, Pork Fat (preserved with mixed tocopherols and citric acid), Chicken Liver Flavor, Powdered Cellulose, Fish Oil, Potassium Chloride, L-Lysine, Calcium Carbonate, Choline Chloride, Iodized Salt, DL-Methionine, Vitamin E Supplement, vitamins (L-Ascorbyl-2-Polyphosphate (source of vitamin C), Vitamin E Supplement, Niacin, Thiamine Mononitrate, Vitamin A Supplement, Calcium Pantothenate, Biotin, Vitamin B12 Supplement, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride, Riboflavin, Folic Acid, Vitamin D3 Supplement), L-Threonine, Taurine, Soy Lecithin, Glucosamine Hydrochloride, minerals (Ferrous Sulfate, Zinc Oxide, Copper Sulfate, Manganous Oxide, Calcium Iodate, Sodium Selenite), L-Tryptophan, L-Carnitine, preserved with Mixed Tocopherols and Citric Acid, Chondroitin Sulfate, Beta-Carotene, Rosemary Extract.

Cost:
$3.92/lb.

Source:
Hill's Prescription Diet j/d Canine Mobility Small Bites Dry Food | NationalPetPharmacy


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## LilasMom (Mar 10, 2012)

BeagleCountry said:


> Hills j/d Canine Mobility Ingredients:
> 
> Whole Grain Corn, Chicken By-Product Meal, Flaxseed, Soybean Mill Run, Brewers Rice, Soybean Meal, Pork Fat (preserved with mixed tocopherols and citric acid), Chicken Liver Flavor, Powdered Cellulose, Fish Oil, Potassium Chloride, L-Lysine, Calcium Carbonate, Choline Chloride, Iodized Salt, DL-Methionine, Vitamin E Supplement, vitamins (L-Ascorbyl-2-Polyphosphate (source of vitamin C), Vitamin E Supplement, Niacin, Thiamine Mononitrate, Vitamin A Supplement, Calcium Pantothenate, Biotin, Vitamin B12 Supplement, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride, Riboflavin, Folic Acid, Vitamin D3 Supplement), L-Threonine, Taurine, Soy Lecithin, Glucosamine Hydrochloride, minerals (Ferrous Sulfate, Zinc Oxide, Copper Sulfate, Manganous Oxide, Calcium Iodate, Sodium Selenite), L-Tryptophan, L-Carnitine, preserved with Mixed Tocopherols and Citric Acid, Chondroitin Sulfate, Beta-Carotene, Rosemary Extract.
> 
> ...


Definitely something I would never feed my dog. The ingredients speak for themselves.


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## Unosmom (May 3, 2009)

I had a customer with a 12 year old sheltie who had severe arthritis and was on this "food" for 6 months. She couldn't lose weight despite cutting back and her coat was dry and itchy. I switched her over to raw supplemented with fish oil. Just saw her last night, lost 7 lbs, no more allergies and actually ran up to me for a treat. 

Even if by some miracle Hills in fact does what it says, I can't comprehend paying $4 per lb for a bag of corn and sawdust.


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## Dr Dolittle (Aug 2, 2013)

the pet food marketers have trained you well. As long as they can keep you gazing lovingly at nice looking ingredients and you avoid looking at nutrients, they win.......and your dog loses. every ingredient can be chosen to help sell a food or to deliver nutrients at optimal levels. You really believe some of the top nutritionists in the world would be responsible for making garbage and the food companies you all seem to embrace that have absolutely no credentials, research, nutritionists, chemists, nothing but marketing, you trust with your dogs. Human nature I guess. We all follow something. We are sheep Afterall, aren't we?


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## LilasMom (Mar 10, 2012)

Dr Dolittle said:


> the pet food marketers have trained you well. As long as they can keep you gazing lovingly at nice looking ingredients and you avoid looking at nutrients, they win.......and your dog loses. every ingredient can be chosen to help sell a food or to deliver nutrients at optimal levels. You really believe *some of the top nutritionists in the world would be responsible for making garbage *and the food companies you all seem to embrace that have absolutely no credentials, research, nutritionists, chemists, nothing but marketing, you trust with your dogs. Human nature I guess. We all follow something. We are sheep Afterall, aren't we?


See that is the difference, most people here don't think they are top nutritionists. A nutritionist would never recommend corn. Terrible for dogs, cats, and humans. I actually believe it is the people blindly following vets' advice that are the sheep. Mother Nature needs no credentials. Her plan has worked for thousands of years. Commercial pet food is new, and coincidentally enough so is the huge influx of heart disease, peridontal disease, diabetes, cancers, kidney failures, etc that occur with pets. Funny how those same diseases in humans are linked to bad diets and too much processed food yet vets don't make that link with pets, it is just "old age" or "it just happens". Dogs nor humans have been eating processed food and grains long enough to adapt and thrive on them. It is best to follow a diet that is as close to pre-processing times as possible for both humans and dogs. For dogs that means feeding only things that their bodies are meant to process. Corn, rice, soy, etc are very hard for a dogs body to process. The pancreas has to overwork in producing enzymes to digest these inappropriate foods. Not to mention the questionable meat sources of Hills, Purina, Royal Canin, etc. No unnamed animal proteins for me, thank you very much. If I wouldn't eat it, my dog doesn't.


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## Shamrockmommy (Sep 10, 2009)

I fed science diet. Sure, nutrients may just be nutrients and science says my dogs' bodies don't know the difference but the differences in my dogs is HUGE. SD gives them a poor, dry coat, enormous, foul,smelling poop with the acompanying foul gas, the lose muscle tone and get fat, tear stains, ear infections, bad breath and a lot of plaque, ear infections and itchiness. 

Put them on a food with zero wheat and corn and no by products (I like Fromm grain free and Petguard Lifespan the most) with ingredients I can recognize as food and ALL that disappears. I'm no nutritionist but the dogs bodies tell it all.


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## Dr Dolittle (Aug 2, 2013)

Shamrockmommy said:


> I fed science diet. Sure, nutrients may just be nutrients and science says my dogs' bodies don't know the difference but the differences in my dogs is HUGE. SD gives them a poor, dry coat, enormous, foul,smelling poop with the acompanying foul gas, the lose muscle tone and get fat, tear stains, ear infections, bad breath and a lot of plaque, ear infections and itchiness.
> 
> Put them on a food with zero wheat and corn and no by products (I like Fromm grain free and Petguard Lifespan the most) with ingredients I can recognize as food and ALL that disappears. I'm no nutritionist but the dogs bodies tell it all.


I appreciate your personal testimony but you realize thousands of pet owners could tell you how their dog did better on SD, Iams, whatever. Unfortunately the ingredients you think you can recognize are in no way what you think they are! they just look and sound good! Actually Fromm is a very good brand. Don't know all the diets and the marketing is pretty dishonest but everyone's is these days. I was impressed with their actual nutrient profiles of what I looked at.


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## Dr Dolittle (Aug 2, 2013)

LilasMom said:


> See that is the difference, most people here don't think they are top nutritionists. A nutritionist would never recommend corn. Terrible for dogs, cats, and humans. I actually believe it is the people blindly following vets' advice that are the sheep. Mother Nature needs no credentials. Her plan has worked for thousands of years. Commercial pet food is new, and coincidentally enough so is the huge influx of heart disease, peridontal disease, diabetes, cancers, kidney failures, etc that occur with pets. Funny how those same diseases in humans are linked to bad diets and too much processed food yet vets don't make that link with pets, it is just "old age" or "it just happens". Dogs nor humans have been eating processed food and grains long enough to adapt and thrive on them. It is best to follow a diet that is as close to pre-processing times as possible for both humans and dogs. For dogs that means feeding only things that their bodies are meant to process. Corn, rice, soy, etc are very hard for a dogs body to process. The pancreas has to overwork in producing enzymes to digest these inappropriate foods. Not to mention the questionable meat sources of Hills, Purina, Royal Canin, etc. No unnamed animal proteins for me, thank you very much. If I wouldn't eat it, my dog doesn't.


LilasMom, I often say that Nature stinks when it comes to dogs and cats in the wild. What I mean is veterinary medicine, with parasite control, vaccines, dentistry, better nutrition, etc are all pretty unnatural yet because of them dogs are living longer than ever into their maid to late teens and cats hitting their 20's! In nature wild dogs and cats are dead by 7 at the oldest. most much younger. I love nature but I am very thankful I don't treat my babies as a wolf. I love them too much. As I have said elsewhere, notice how you all mention ingredients that you think you can understand like lamb or turkey vs poultry by product meal. Oh, lamb and turkey sounds so good and natural but could be the lowest grade meat available! The poultry by product meal could be organ meat from USDA chickens. Which meat source would you pick if you really knew? Food companies have you figured out and you are paying way too much money and not getting what you think you are...and it's your little guys I am trying to be an advocate for.


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## LilasMom (Mar 10, 2012)

Dr Dolittle said:


> LilasMom, I often say that Nature stinks when it comes to dogs and cats in the wild. What I mean is veterinary medicine, with parasite control, vaccines, dentistry, *better nutrition, etc are all pretty unnatural* yet because of them dogs are living longer than ever into their maid to late teens and cats hitting their 20's! In nature wild dogs and cats are dead by 7 at the oldest. most much younger. I love nature but I am very thankful I don't treat my babies as a wolf. I love them too much. As I have said elsewhere, notice how you all mention ingredients that you think you can understand like lamb or turkey vs poultry by product meal. Oh, lamb and turkey sounds so good and natural but could be the lowest grade meat available! The poultry by product meal could be organ meat from USDA chickens. Which meat source would you pick if you really knew? Food companies have you figured out and you are paying way too much money and not getting what you think you are...and it's your little guys I am trying to be an advocate for.


I don't believe they die at 7 because of their diet. They die because they are in the wild and wild things like fighting occur. Also, because of the diet I feed, I no longer have a need for dentistry or parasite control. I only vaccinate rabies because that is legally required. Nature does not stink. She has it 100% right. Dogs and cats have been living that long since way before veterinary medicine. I don't treat my baby like a wolf either. I treat her like the dog she is, which means only meat I can name. And better nutrition is not new lol. It is the inferior nutrition that is new. We can just agree to disagree. I am going to feed what has worked for me for two years and what has worked for mother nature for thousands.


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## LilasMom (Mar 10, 2012)

Dr Dolittle said:


> I appreciate your personal testimony but you realize thousands of pet owners could tell you how their dog did better on SD, Iams, whatever. Unfortunately the ingredients you think you can recognize are in no way what you think they are! they just look and sound good! Actually Fromm is a very good brand. Don't know all the diets *and the marketing is pretty dishonest but everyone's is these days.* I was impressed with their actual nutrient profiles of what I looked at.


I guess everyone except Iams and Science Diet?


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## Shamrockmommy (Sep 10, 2009)

Dr Dolittle said:


> I appreciate your personal testimony but you realize thousands of pet owners could tell you how their dog did better on SD, Iams, whatever. Unfortunately the ingredients you think you can recognize are in no way what you think they are! they just look and sound good! Actually Fromm is a very good brand. Don't know all the diets and the marketing is pretty dishonest but everyone's is these days. I was impressed with their actual nutrient profiles of what I looked at.


Look, I'm going to have to just say I disagree, won't ever feed iams or science diet or purina or old Roy or pedigree. Ain't happening. I've had dogs long enough to know how well a food is performing for their bodies. I am aware that the ingredients in dog food aren't something you would serve at the dinner table, but I won't feed chicken by products and feather meal and corn fragments and cellulose (which type? Cardboard? Corn chaff? Sawdust? Sounds nutritious!) nor wheat or soy or brewers yeast. 

And if you want to talk about fancy marketing, I've seen the commercials for science diet trying to jump on the natural and grain free bandwagon. Better looking, sure but I won't feed it. How about iams and their new "so good" food. Looks like chicken feed in a bag. What a joke. Trying to make a buck on the price point and quality of pedigree. 

As far as people whose dogs do better on science diet and iams, those are the dogs who were likely on old Roy and bargain foods. Sure they're better. They could thrive on even more quality foods plus fresh added foods and their oral health would be outstanding with the occasional raw bone. Mine do! I won't trade healthy happy dogs for "science" that gives them horrid ear infections, doggy odor, room clearing gas, yeast infections on their feet, loss of muscle tone and extra flab, terrible breath and oral health, dry, flaky skin, brittle dry coat. Sorry. Anecdotal or not! 
And for extra assurance, all my dogs get annual bloodwork and it always is in normal, healthy ranges. 

As always, JMO.


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## Dr Dolittle (Aug 2, 2013)

I am not a fan of Iams so we can agree there, but more on their nutrient profiles than on any particular ingredient. Anything sold thru the mass market has to be compromised in quality and it shows in their monieral levels. SD jumping on the bandwagon, yes, but I do like that they at least mention the balance of nutrients. I wish we'd evaluate foods on that! So they can't do it but the other guys can? I beleiev every single food now has a grain free. Not because the dogs need it but to sell food. Which I thought most of you were against! LOL! I would prefer a grain free diet from a company with actual chemists and nutritionists than one without, though I don't need to spend extra money on grain free anyway. I am sure you will see more manipulation of ingredient panels to suit your fancy from all pet food companies and you will pay more too. Follow the money! And in that pursiut for money the pet owner and the pet will be the losers. I am seeing it already with very real sad stories in vet clinics. And it stinks. Funny where we humans sometimes put our trust. Cardboard, sawdust???Really!


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## Jan Fred (Jul 23, 2013)

> You need to keep this dog thin and fit. How tall is this dog and how much does she weigh? Also, tone muscles are important in the fight against joint disease, so regular exercise is critical. Swimming especially because it there is no weight on the joints.


 True, also is the food that you feed, make sure that you are giving the appropriate foods for their needs. For more check this: Homemade Dog Foods Can Actually Harm Your Dog - Hundido


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## Roo (Oct 17, 2010)

Everyone's body (animals or humans) will process and metabolize sightly differently meaning even if all calculated nutritional needs are met exactly with nutrient profiles, they won't be all used the same. When you chemically analyze a diet (homemade or commercially processed) in a lab or by a computer program, you can not determine digestibility of a food, the bio-availability of nutrients, or how a food will perform in the individual live animal with different needs, living in different environments, having different genetic make up and exposed to different stresses. I believe the chemical nutrient profiles also don't consider the source or quality of the nutrients, or losses due to storage, shelf life etc. What about the quality control of the vitamin/mineral packs used? What country were they sourced from, any unhealthy chemical preservatives, heavy metals, etc. used? Not to mention synthetic nutrients being isolated, aren't the same nutritionally as those from whole fresh foods, which often work through complex combinations.


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## LilasMom (Mar 10, 2012)

Dr Dolittle said:


> I am not a fan of Iams so we can agree there, but more on their nutrient profiles than on any particular ingredient. Anything sold thru the mass market has to be compromised in quality and it shows in their monieral levels. SD jumping on the bandwagon, yes, but I do like that they at least mention the balance of nutrients. I wish we'd evaluate foods on that! So they can't do it but the other guys can?* I beleiev every single food now has a grain free. Not because the dogs need it but to sell food. *Which I thought most of you were against! LOL! I would prefer a grain free diet from a company with actual chemists and nutritionists than one without, though I don't need to spend extra money on grain free anyway. I am sure you will see more manipulation of ingredient panels to suit your fancy from all pet food companies and you will pay more too. Follow the money! And in that pursiut for money the pet owner and the pet will be the losers. I am seeing it already with very real sad stories in vet clinics. And it stinks. Funny where we humans sometimes put our trust. Cardboard, sawdust???Really!


Grains are not good for dogs. Just because one can derive energy from a source, doesn't mean they should. If that was the case I would be eating pasta and baked potatoes everyday. Grain free is important, I do think dogs need grain free.


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## Roo (Oct 17, 2010)

Dr Dolittle said:


> Sandy, The reason your vet recommended j/d is because he probably has seen how well it works! I know all the therapeutic diets out there and of the 4 vet diets for arthritis, j/d is the best. Basically it provides an incredible amount of Omega 3's to help reduce the pain and inflammation of arthritis. n fact, in clinical studies, it worked as well as any NSAID but it took longer, about 30 days. but the real magic of j/d is that it was formulated to actually turn down the expression of the genes that are producing the enzymes destroying your dog's cartilage! You could look up Nutrigenomics, the study of how nutrients affect gene expression. Hills and Purina have been studying it, as well as human medicine. Pretty amazing stuff actually! That is something no NSAID can do. Most orthopedic specialist who have no stake in the pet food sales or promotion, heartily recommend it. in fact, it is virtually impossible to feed enough supplements to get the amt of Omega 3's your dog will get in j/d.


Virtually impossible to feed enough omega 3 fish oil or krill oil supplements, or fresh mackerel, sardines etc. to get the amount of omega 3 in J/D huh? How so, I'd be interested in further explanation. 

Interestingly enough Science Diet received a FDA warning in 2011 in regards to their healthy mobilty formula for joints etc. for unsupported, untrue claims of feeding it for 30 days., not sure I could buy into their J/D claims so easily.
http://www.fda.gov/ICECI/EnforcementActions/WarningLetters/ucm281270.htm 

FYI this is an older thread, as most of Dr. Dolittle's posts have been in.


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## Shamrockmommy (Sep 10, 2009)

The only animals that thrive on grains are birds. Grains are terrible food for humans as well. Highly inflammatory and wheat causes a whole host of issues. On grains personally, I had arthritis and immune dysfunction, depression, would gain weight easily, always hungry, migraines, psoriasis, IBS, chronic fatigue, fibromyalgia... Off grains, that all disappears. I went from chair bound, ready to die (suffered with these things since I was a child!) to a mostly normal human again. I have permanent joint damage but thankfully it won't get any worse. 
Grains are terrible for all but birds. 

Why did you come here? The majority of people on this forum are never going to agree with your agenda.


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## Dr Dolittle (Aug 2, 2013)

Hey Roo, I think its great the FDA is going to get stricter on food claims. The research is there. It will jsut take the govt a while to figure out how to evaluate these claims. All the vet brands got such warnings. I think you'll agree the govt isn't always the best to do this but its a start. I sent alot of time doing the math but a 60 LB dog will receive 13,000 mg/day of Omega 3's per day. And remember EPA and the ratio to 6's also needs to be considered. The supplements I found on vet shelves were sorely lacking. And I'm just the meassager. I have had pretty prominent orthopedic specialists confirm that. I like you am just trying to ingest all the info. But I have seen the food do amazing things, and yas, in 30 days!


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## Dr Dolittle (Aug 2, 2013)

Agenda???? I thought this was a forum. Do you prefer we all be sheep and agree on everything lock step? God, I hope I never get like that. I actually agree with your above statement for humans. Have seen it myself. Not seeing it in dogs though, in the field or in the research. I prefer to think we have passions, not agendas, but thats just me I guess!


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## Shamrockmommy (Sep 10, 2009)

I respect what my dogs bodies (and my own) are telling me and listen to that over "scientifically formulated ... nutrients are nutrients and bodies don't know the difference". You'd prefer I ignore the screaming symptoms of ill health and feed science diet because I'M the sheep? The higher quality foods Are a gimmick and marketing? Open your own eyes, dear.


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## Roo (Oct 17, 2010)

Dr Dolittle said:


> Hey Roo, I think its great the FDA is going to get stricter on food claims. The research is there. It will jsut take the govt a while to figure out how to evaluate these claims. All the vet brands got such warnings. I think you'll agree the govt isn't always the best to do this but its a start. I sent alot of time doing the math but a 60 LB dog will receive 13,000 mg/day of Omega 3's per day. And remember EPA and the ratio to 6's also needs to be considered. The supplements I found on vet shelves were sorely lacking. And I'm just the meassager. I have had pretty prominent orthopedic specialists confirm that. I like you am just trying to ingest all the info. But I have seen the food do amazing things, and yas, in 30 days!


The only research I'm aware of on J/D was that of the companies, not independent, so bias comes into play. Now your statement makes more sense, you meant supplements on Vet's shelves, not all omega 3 supplements or food etc. I've actually found it easy to supplement my dog's omega 3 needs feeding oily fish, grassfed meats, and or a decent quality human grade fish oil supplement, no need to feed J/D to my dogs.


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## Dr Dolittle (Aug 2, 2013)

if your canine companion is well and happy, so am I!


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## lindseycampbell358 (Jun 17, 2012)

Hey Dr. Dolittle- although I have to disagree with much of what your posts say, (because of the tremendous loads of research I have done on this subject after my first dog died of severe kidney and liver issues thanks to science diet, but that's another story!) I must also applaud your attitude and positivity when facing the people like me on this forum.  even though most of us have disagreed and challenged you, you've been nothing but polite (although I still think you're wrong with the whole SD thing Haha) and I appreciate it. Ok that's all. Back to OP : IMO do what you feel is right. You are the dog's caretaker, and no one, including your vet, can choose for you.


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## Dr Dolittle (Aug 2, 2013)

LOL! Well thanks for the kind words. I used to be more confrontational in my younger years, trust me. Still pretty opinionated but I have learned I don't have absolute TRUTH. We all come with bias's. We have life experiences or people that influenced us. I just try and not let my bias blind me. It's human nature to do that. Dog and cat nutrition has been my passion most of my adult life, mainly because of my love for dogs...and my appreciation for those like me. As a missionary that has shared the Gospel in places like Pakistan, Greece, the Amazon jungle, maybe I have learned arguing doesn't help anyone! LOL! I have to admit I am curious how you came to the conclusion that a food caused your dog to have renal disease. I am sorry for your loss, but I don't know if I could make such a claim even with some pretty awful foods. renal disease is a disease I believe we could help prevent thru nutrition and obviously treat with diet. My philosophy is I want to use diet so your dog dies with kidney disease, not from it. If you'd rather not share about that, no problem. God Bless!


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