# alternative to Purina NF



## Loria

I've been feeding my 13 year old boxer Raw all her life, but now she is starting to have kidney issues and vet sold me some Purina NF food that she has been on a week now and is doing well on it. (at first I just tried cutting out the bone in her diet and that didn't help).
But the first ingredient listed is corn, and I hate paying a premium price for corn.
Is there a premium food that will be good/safe for her kidneys?

Thank you,
Lori


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## whiteleo

Can you tell us what you were feeding your dog on a regular basis for her raw meals?


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## RawFedDogs

There is no commercial dog food that willl be nearly as good for your dog as a raw diet. Exactly what were you feeding when you were feeding raw? Everything, including supplements. We can tweak the raw diet if necessary. I have a strong feeling that diet is not a causitive factor with your dog's kidney problems. I suspect it is just old age. Changing to a commercial diet, I don't care what kind it is, will not have a positive effect on his problem.

To answer your question ... "NO"


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## Loria

one chicken leg quarter in am
some kind of red meat off the bone in pm with either a raw egg or fish oil pill, or some liver or kidney alternating.
I totally agree this is just old age, but she was going down rapidly, I tried cutting out the bone for a few weeks but that didn't help and gave her diarrhea.
She has always had a sensitive stomach to organs (chicken livers are fine) (have to be very carefull with how much cow kidney I give her at a time)and doesn't tolerate fish at all even the fish oil started to cause her to vomit now. 
She started just drinking more water than normal, then peeing in the bed, then wasting away and very weak and falling over.
Finally, I gave up and went with the vet food (which was very hard for me, believe me) and she is defiantly improving, putting on weight, not peeing in bed, not falling over more energy.
But I think Purina NF uses the cheapest ingredients possible for better kidney function, and if I'm going to pay a high price I want quality ingredients.
Because I don't know what this will do to her in the long run.
Lori


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## whiteleo

Could the chicken quarters possibly been enhanced with the sodium mixture that they so often add now? My thinking is that if they were this would definitely be harder on the kidneys.


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## Loria

That did enter my mind, when she started drinking more water.
But I don't think they were, I had once bought enhanced chicken at walmart 
by accident and you could tell it was enhanced because when you thawed it the juices where more than normal and gooey.
Plus when I stopped giving her bone for a few weeks she wasn't getting much chicken, and still drinking more water than normal and acting weak.
Lori


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## DaneMama

Is she on any kind of medication other than the food?


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## sassymaxmom

Join K9KidneyDiet, a yahoo group, for advice on feeding a kidney dog. Get a copy of all the lab work done as the moderators can give you pointers on what might help depending on the numbers.

You probably won't be able to feed much bone but you can feed raw meat and a limited amount of organ. The nasty prescription kibble has much less protein which all dogs need, it is dry - bad for kidney dogs - and it is high in sodium to get the dog to drink water. See 
DogAware.com Health: Kidney Disease in Dogs

I had to feed Sassy low fat boiled chicken along with a small amount of beef/pork/lamb and add in high calorie low phosphorus glutinous rice but she mostly loved her food and kept up her muscle mass. I snuck her a chicken foot and beef rib every so often too.

You can formulate a diet with the same levels of minerals and use high quality fresh foods.


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## RawFedDogs

Loria said:


> She started just drinking more water than normal, then peeing in the bed, then wasting away and very weak and falling over.


This sounds a lot like my Abby (10 1/2yo Great Dane). She has been drinking A LOT of water for about the last year. She is also leaking pee when she sleeps sometimes. I have her on Premarin that pretty well controls that. She is definately loosing muscle mass around her hips. She has only stumbled a couple of times.

You are feeding your dog a good raw diet. I'm impressed with it. :smile: There is no kibble that I would change Abby to. I hope you can work out a raw diet that you are comfortable with.


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## sassymaxmom

Kidney dogs drink and drink as blood phosphorus is high and they are trying like mad to dilute it so they are actually dehydrated. When Sassy got subcutaneous fluids her accidents decreased. Some vets are resistant to giving fluids to good sized dogs. Sassy was only 44 pounds but the 500-1000 ml of fluid a day really made a difference in her quality of life.

Get the testing done. Sassy lived 3.5 years after diagnosis, mostly feeling pretty good even though the DM, bad eyes, heart murmur got bothersome as well. When I increased her protein her muscle mass and strength increased tremendously, you have that covered already!


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## grabowski

I just found this page because I was looking to see where I could buy the NF food. I just moved to another city and I don't want to change my vet that is an hour away. My dog was diagnosed with renal problems in November. He is an Italian Greyhound. He was put on renal food. First KD. At first Spencer was eating a can a day. Then about 2 months later he didn't want it and lost a lot of weight. The vet said he couldn't have any other food. Then he got really sick in January and we had to go back to the vet. He had to have some fluids and a B12 shot. It was really an expensive trip and money is so limited for me right now. I love my dog more than anything. He's now on the LP food and I'm lucky if he eats 1/2 a can a day. Any suggestions? You guys seem to know more about the renal stuff and food as this whole diagnosis is new to me. Also, he's 15 pounds and has lost a lot of muscle.


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## sassymaxmom

If you want to keep trying the prescription foods your vet or petsmart ought to be able to order any for you. There is a list of them on dogaware's kidney pages somewhere.
DogAware.com Health: Prescription Diets for Dogs with Kidney Disease

The K9KidneyDiet yahoo group has loads of information, might join and pick their brains a little. I learned so much there even though I never posted.

I thought Sassy was a goner when she stopped eating a year after diagnosis but the vet gave me an antacid and she was fine again for a couple years! Please read the rest of dogaware's kidney pages for more ideas on how to deal with what is going to come up in the future.

Remember any food is better than no food. Offer him whatever you are eating for instance. If he will only eat peanut butter sandwiches give them. Just use white bread as whole grain is much higher in phosphorus and as little high phosphorus peanut butter as you can get away with and sprinkle the appropriate amount of powdered eggshell so at least he is getting some calcium in. 

The gold standards for low phosphorus protein are boiled to death chicken [throwing away the broth] and egg white. Corn starch, tapioca and glutinous white rice are high calorie low phosphorus if your dog cannot handle fat which is of course super high calorie and low phosphorus.

If his numbers are getting up there, something like twice normal if I am remembering correctly, then do get the subQs. I bought fluids locally for about $25 a case and lines and sharps online. It cost me about $50 a month for Sassy would be 1/3 that for your much smaller dog.

Once phosphorus started going up to close to the maximum normal I started using phosphorus binders, also not expensive and also bought online.

Mary Strauss writes up her method for feeding her kidney dog raw but it was way beyond what I could do at the time. Bones are phosphorus bombs so kidney dogs don't get to eat much bone. Just a mix of raw lean hamburger and using pureed low starch veggies like lettuce, celery, zucchini, broccoli with powdered eggshell for calcium at 1/2 tsp per pound of finished food is an excellent start to the diet if you would like to try raw. A raw fed dog starts at 2% of his/her ideal body weight which might be 4-5 ounces for your guy. Add in a really small amount of beef liver and the diet is even better, about 1/4 ounce a day. Be sure to mix the appropriate amount of fish oil and vitamin E, kidney dogs need it even more than healthy dogs.


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## Shamrockmommy

Check into Dr. Strombeck's Book _Home Prepared Dog and Cat Diets_ (the original version, not the updated one). I know he's got some special health diets in there.
Good luck


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## grabowski

Thank you both so much for this valuable information!


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## Dr Dolittle

Lorie, I don't work for Purina but I know all the vet diets well? Renal diets for dogs are the longest researched diets in the world and we KNOW they work! If that website for renal dogs looks legit, go that way but in the meantime, you will see the NF is going to reduce the nitrogen waste that comes from breaking down meat protein and is causing the muscle wasting you are seeing. Your pup will start feeling better and as you already noticed, the excess drinking and urination will go away. Doga and cats can live YEARS with renal failure if we catch it early enough and get them on the right foods. DON'T be looking for a pretty, fancy, manipulated ingredient panel! that combination of ingredients is delivering all the amino acids your pup needs! and reducing the workload on those damaged kidneys! based on what you have described, I would bet you are down to about 25% renal function? You don't have the time to screw around! pardon my French but I see way to much kidney disease and American's fascination over protein is not helping! I am not saying raw diets cause renal failure but as dogs age it becomes a real risk and doing routine blood work to catch it early and then make some diet changes accordingly, is the loving thing to do. best of luck to you. by the way, if she stops eating the NF, Royal Canin and Hills also make canine kidney diets that have years of success behind them so don't let taste be an obstacle! God Bless!


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## Dr Dolittle

sassymaxmom said:


> If you want to keep trying the prescription foods your vet or petsmart ought to be able to order any for you. There is a list of them on dogaware's kidney pages somewhere.
> DogAware.com Health: Prescription Diets for Dogs with Kidney Disease
> 
> The K9KidneyDiet yahoo group has loads of information, might join and pick their brains a little. I learned so much there even though I never posted.
> 
> I thought Sassy was a goner when she stopped eating a year after diagnosis but the vet gave me an antacid and she was fine again for a couple years! Please read the rest of dogaware's kidney pages for more ideas on how to deal with what is going to come up in the future.
> 
> Remember any food is better than no food. Offer him whatever you are eating for instance. If he will only eat peanut butter sandwiches give them. Just use white bread as whole grain is much higher in phosphorus and as little high phosphorus peanut butter as you can get away with and sprinkle the appropriate amount of powdered eggshell so at least he is getting some calcium in.
> 
> The gold standards for low phosphorus protein are boiled to death chicken [throwing away the broth] and egg white. Corn starch, tapioca and glutinous white rice are high calorie low phosphorus if your dog cannot handle fat which is of course super high calorie and low phosphorus.
> 
> If his numbers are getting up there, something like twice normal if I am remembering correctly, then do get the subQs. I bought fluids locally for about $25 a case and lines and sharps online. It cost me about $50 a month for Sassy would be 1/3 that for your much smaller dog.
> 
> Once phosphorus started going up to close to the maximum normal I started using phosphorus binders, also not expensive and also bought online.
> 
> Mary Strauss writes up her method for feeding her kidney dog raw but it was way beyond what I could do at the time. Bones are phosphorus bombs so kidney dogs don't get to eat much bone. Just a mix of raw lean hamburger and using pureed low starch veggies like lettuce, celery, zucchini, broccoli with powdered eggshell for calcium at 1/2 tsp per pound of finished food is an excellent start to the diet if you would like to try raw. A raw fed dog starts at 2% of his/her ideal body weight which might be 4-5 ounces for your guy. Add in a really small amount of beef liver and the diet is even better, about 1/4 ounce a day. Be sure to mix the appropriate amount of fish oil and vitamin E, kidney dogs need it even more than healthy dogs.


Lots of good info here. it really does come down to the question of going it on your own or do you trust which company to having the best chemists and nutritionists to formulate a very special diet for renal dogs. We know an awful lot about kidney failure and how to manage it so compare notes from different sources....and consider those sources too! Not all info is of equal value!! LOL! Good luck!


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## samaroberoi4474

You Can consider royal canin and science diet


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## Georgiapeach

If the vet diet is working and the raw diet wasn't, I keep your dog on the vet diet.


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