# I am a raw failure.....again



## meggels (May 30, 2010)

Murph is coming off of raw  I'm using up what I have left and mixing it in with about half cup of kibble a day.

It just wasn't working out for us/him the way I hoped it would. He was just too thin. I don't want him to be fat, I keep Abbie lean, but he just needed to gain some weight and he was beginning to eat me out of house and home. 

Right now he's eating mostly raw, and at his dinner meal, I give him half a cup or so of kibble (Right now it's Earthborn's grain free fish formula). I have a bag of Orijen 6 fish waiting for him when he's done and going completely back to kibble. I wanted something that was still very high in meat and it seems that Orijen is the best choice for that. It was either going to be that, NV Instinct or Earthborn's grain free formulas. 

He's already gained some weight and looks better IMO. And the biggest thing I've noticed is that he seems to have energy back and is much more goofy and animated. I dunno what it was....but something just wasn't working.

I do plan to give him some RMB's once or twice a week as a "snack" and to keep up good teeth. I have some duck necks and spare beef ribs in my freezer. 

I really do appreciate all the raw feeders answering questions for me and supporting me through this process though


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## Amy18 (May 17, 2011)

Lexie was way too thin when i started her on raw too, but i increased her meal sizes and she's now filled out very nicely. I understand though if it's a financial issue with having to feed a bigger dog. Glad to hear he is doing well


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## DaneMama (Jun 27, 2008)

I'm sorry to read this but I guess I'm glad he's better now. I think if you had fed a true PMR diet that he would have done perfectly. Maybe raw will be in your future again someday. Hopefully his allergies don't make him too uncomfortable.


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## meggels (May 30, 2010)

I do think it will be in his future. We will still "practice" with the RMB's and I will hopefully keep getting comfortable with it.

But I will try to feel okay with the fact that I am giving him a kibble that most closely resembles their natural diet. 

Do you think raw just doesn't work for some dogs? And out of curiosity, why do you think that he might have gained more weight on PMR style?


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## Celt (Dec 27, 2010)

From what I've read simple carbs like properly processed grains and other plant "matter" are more easily converted to "sugars" which allows more to be stored (as fat, generally, which is why most kibble fed are overweight), while dogs can get these "sugars" from the fat in their diet, it is "harder" for the body to process into "sugars" and so is used up instead of stored. Not to say that fat is not more natural but it is used more by the body and not stored. I'm thinking that since dogs are carnivore who only eat plant matter when meat is scarce that their bodies, since without proper processing, have to work hard to gain any benefit that with kibble most of the "work" is done so they get a lot of "sugars" with less work and so can "save up for when meat is more abundant". Hope this made sense, my brain is a scary place sometimes. I get lost in it rather often.


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## meggels (May 30, 2010)

Haha no, that made sense. So which one is better?



I'm just curious because he was getting rather thin and seemed lethargic. He was eating 10.5 oz a day at 20lbs. 

Now with the kibble added he is gaining and he seems much more chipper.

That's why I'm wondering if maybe the raw just wasn't gonna work for him?


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## Celt (Dec 27, 2010)

imo, "fat energy" is more readily used by the body so is probably better overall. It might be that his body was just taking longer to adjust too working "harder" to convert to "sugars" or maybe he needed more fat, to have the "extra" to cause weight gain. The "easy" sugars are probably what's helping with the energy and stuff, sort of like those energy drinks that people use to get a boost.


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## Northwoods10 (Nov 22, 2010)

How long had you been feeding raw to him before deciding it wasn't working?

I only ask because it seems like ALL of my dogs lost weight at first until I tweaked their diet enough to fit what they needed. And that did take a few months. 

Also, what were you feeding?? You mentioned that if he was on full PMR maybe it would have been better?

Either way, you know him best, trust your instincts. Just know that its not always an easy transition.


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## lucky (Jan 8, 2011)

lucky lost weight whilst going through the "detox" phase, she also moulted a lot more (her coat was also drier) and she seemed generally lethargic, this lasted about a month and I believe was this was due to finding the right balance for her


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## 3Musketeers (Nov 4, 2010)

Don't worry about it too much as long as Murph looks better. Orijen is a great kibble to have him on.
Although I'm sure most of us hope you'll give raw another shot ;P. Like others have said, the transition isn't always easy, and you can definitely ask magicre about that one, I hear he/she was the king/queen of raw-transitioning errors, LOL.

Pre-Made Raw and PMR (Prey-Model Raw), lol they both make "PMR", does vary in that you never know the ratios or what truly goes into the pre-made ground stuff, it could be mostly bone, or mostly fat, with very little actual meat or organ. So in that sense, yes PMR can vary greatly form other types of raw in general. 
But some dogs just require more food than others, example, my Patchie, who is 10lbs, gets fed almost twice as much as I feed Sparky (13lbs) or Popi (8lbs) to maintain weight, now the funny thing is that Popi and Sparky eat almost the same amount with Popi eating just a bit less than Sparky. All of them get more than 3% of their body weight because they just burn it off so well. Whereas on kibble, they were all chubby even with portioned meals, I believe due to the carb content of kibble.


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## Liz (Sep 27, 2010)

I am soory it didn't work for you this time. I am glad your pup is doing better. My dogs did not do well on pre made raw - but PMR is a whole different world. My 20 sheltie gets 8-12 ounces per day to maintain her weight and she is not very active.


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## DaneMama (Jun 27, 2008)

I think he would do much better on a prey model raw diet compared to the ground stuff because you don't know what for sure is in that stuff other than what the label says. There's basically no regulation on ground raw diets so really the label could say one thing but the actual food be something else. With true PMR you know exactly what he's getting because you're giving whole fresh foods even if they're ground up.


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## Tobi (Mar 18, 2011)

DaneMama said:


> I think he would do much better on a prey model raw diet compared to the ground stuff because you don't know what for sure is in that stuff other than what the label says. There's basically no regulation on ground raw diets so really the label could say one thing but the actual food be something else. With true PMR you know exactly what he's getting because you're giving whole fresh foods even if they're ground up.


This is precisely why i would grind my own instead of buying a ground one for boarding etc, I want to know what he's eating and how much of what he's eating!!


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

Celt said:


> imo, "fat energy" is more readily used by the body so is probably better overall. It might be that his body was just taking longer to adjust too working "harder" to convert to "sugars" or maybe he needed more fat, to have the "extra" to cause weight gain. The "easy" sugars are probably what's helping with the energy and stuff, sort of like those energy drinks that people use to get a boost.


in humans, carbs are utilised first, then fat, and then the body begins to catabolise protein, it starts to literally 'eat' itself...for humans, too many carbs....not enough get used..they go into the storage tank and eventually become fat....as does the human.

with dogs, they don't process carbs. but it takes longer for them to get to the fat they need, so they don't begin to catabolise protein...so it takes longer for them to gain weight...and that detox that hits many dogs...is because they are getting used to the diet meant for them, which is protein, including organs... and fat and bone..they use fat for energy, bones give them calcium and minerals and act as a stabiliser...


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## meggels (May 30, 2010)

He was on it for 2 months, wouldn't that be enough time for his body to get used to it and start utilizing it better?


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## Tobi (Mar 18, 2011)

meggels said:


> He was on it for 2 months, wouldn't that be enough time for his body to get used to it and start utilizing it better?


I don't think so... Tobi has just started showing signs of "needing more food" to keep him from losing weight and were going on 4 months. 2 months is really beginning transition still IMO up untill about 6-8 months they are still adapting to their new diet from what i've read and learned.


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## SerenityFL (Sep 28, 2010)

meggels said:


> He was on it for 2 months, wouldn't that be enough time for his body to get used to it and start utilizing it better?


No. Because in the first two months, you're still transitioning. It's not just the first two weeks with chicken, you're still transitioning from chicken to turkey to pork to beef to fish to organs to richer meats, etc. It's a long, slow process and yes, while transitioning, they can shed more, they get eye boogers, they lose weight, poos being what they should be, etc.

It took us almost 7 months before everything started looking as it should. Sure, the immediate benefits are shiny coat and eyes, but the long term benefits take awhile. Transitioning is the hard part. We second guess, doubt ourselves, screw up, make mistakes, watch, look, recalculate, etc. It takes awhile and my dogs at first didn't lose weight because they were young puppies but they have definitely slimmed down since.


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## DaneMama (Jun 27, 2008)

You guys have to remember that Meggels wasn't doing PMR like most of us do. She was feeding a premade ground raw food, albeit supposedly 99% meat, bones and organs with 1% kelp. I don't remember what proteins were used to make this food....or if she was rotating different ground formulas. 

But even on a premade ground diet two months isn't enough time IMO.


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## nupe (Apr 26, 2011)

Hey you tried...and Orijen is the best kibble on the market ...IMHO...and the closest you will get to Raw without feeding Raw!!!


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

meggels said:


> He was on it for 2 months, wouldn't that be enough time for his body to get used to it and start utilizing it better?


takes about a year for a dog to fully adjust to a raw diet....takes the owner about six months 

i know it sounds funny...but there is fear to overcome on your side.....his whole physiology has to adjust and detox and then accept....two months...not enough time...

but you have to do what is comfortable....i can only say that the benefits outweighed the fears and a year later, my dogs are superb...and then i sighed my sigh of relief...that all my little screw ups along the way didn't amount to a hill of beans....they managed to survive my little screw ups...


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## Cain (Feb 14, 2011)

How much does Murph weigh? For Cain, I fed him Orijen at one point, and the price is more for the Orijen then the raw, for the most part. Currently I average about 60-80 a month for food, at ~2 lbs a day, including turkey, venison, pork, organs, tripe, and some beef and fish.


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## PDXdogmom (Jun 30, 2010)

I would neither encourage nor discourage a person from feeding raw. My comment is in response to the several statements about dogs that are fed kibble usually being overweight. I believe it's more a matter of choosing kibbles that are not high carb; not feeding too many calories; and providing enough exercise.

I feed my dogs a rotation of Fromm's Surf & Turf; Go Natural Grain-free Endurance and Orijen (although beginning to try more home-cooked). I am very careful about the amounts I feed and the dogs get moderate exercise but nothing extreme. At their checkups the vet always comments that she rarely sees dogs that are at such perfect weights and totally toned and trim looking.

In comparison, I'm aware of many people who feed kibble with carbs easily at the 50% range; feed the amount listed on the bag (usually way too much); and take the dog out for a token walk morning and night. High carbs; too many calories and lack of exercise usually end in being overweight be it canine or human.


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## Caty M (Aug 13, 2010)

She feeds raw premade though which where I live is VERY pricy. Around $5/lb and up.


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## SilverBeat (Jan 16, 2011)

Meggles, I'm sorry you're having such a tough time with this! Orijen really is a great kibble as far as kibbles go. 
I have been having a tough time with Wallaby getting him to gain weight and he is *just* starting to look like I'm not starving him to death, after three and a half months.. I know how expensive that kind of thing can be, Wallaby eats 3-5% of his body weight.

You're feeding him pre-made because you're worried about him with bones, right? Have you thought about doing a homecooked diet? Even that would be better than kibble, since you can still control the ingredients [something I would worry about if my dog had yeast issues]. I;m honestly not sure how it would effect his weight though.


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## meggels (May 30, 2010)

I think homecooked would be too expensive though 

His premade was about $2 a lb, so not too bad. 

I might also try him on EB's Great Plains Feast. But I have 5.5 lb bag of the 6 fish from Orijen to get through first....


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

meggels said:


> I think homecooked would be too expensive though
> 
> His premade was about $2 a lb, so not too bad.
> 
> I might also try him on EB's Great Plains Feast. But I have 5.5 lb bag of the 6 fish from Orijen to get through first....


good luck to you...and if ever you decide to try again, certainly there is help all around....


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## CorgiPaws (Mar 31, 2009)

I don't think two months is enough time for a dog to adjust to a new diet, no matter what kind of diet it is. Some dogs have flawless transitions, some dogs don't. While more often than not, my dogs transition without loose stools, every single one of my dogs dropped weight during transition. In fact, with Annie already being thinner than I'd prefer on kibble, after a few months of raw I freaked out and put my girls on kibble for a short time. (which turned into an even bigger disaster, and I literally had a freezer in my living room of an already tiny apartment just to make it work)
Now, she looks awesome, and I'm fairly certain she never would have looked this great on kibble. Mousse is still making his way there after 2 months on raw. Solid stools across the board, but needs to pack on a few more pounds. It will happen, it's only been two months!
I don't think it's possible for a natural diet to not work for any dog. It's what they were designed to eat, after all! However, pre made raw diets are not made with the highest quality meat, in fact often times "chicken" would more accurately be labeled "bruises and tumors of diseased chickens" and then there's the denaturing of meats used in commercial raw diets that can further complicate the issue. I have heard of plenty of dogs that do well on them... I just have yet to actually witness or see enough to be a firm believer in them. This does not go to say I have a strong or even lingering dislike for them! I have a cat that I really simply could not get to eat enough bone to make me comfortable, who now gets pre made Primal chubs as a part of his diet. 
Prey model raw has endless advantages over any other kind of diet, and if done properly by just following a few simple guidelines I do believe that any dog can achieve optimal health on one. (of course there are other factors, too!) That being said, I also believe that as humans, we kind of create our own reality. If we have preconceived notions that something will go wrong, well then we look for, whether consciously or not, things that may be going wrong. I notice this trend a lot. Whenever a firm believer in raw feeding gets a puppy, the transition seems to almost always go "flawless" but when someone is unsure of their decision, or has a lot of worries, there seem to be more bumps in the road. I guess my main point is, do I believe that raw is the best? ABSOLUTELY! But if it's something you really are concerned about, and uncomfortable with, well them you have to so what you feel is best for your dog. 

If you ever decide to make the leap into a species appropriate prey model raw diet, we are all here to help! Until then, just love your little man, you're doing better than most pet owners!:tongue1::tongue1:


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## monkeys23 (Dec 8, 2010)

I know its really really helped Scout be healthier. PMR that is. Her teeth alone... man what a difference. And its slashed my dog food bill in half, considering how poor I am that has been a huge boon to me financially.

What was the fear with him and bones if you don't mind me asking?


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## PDXdogmom (Jun 30, 2010)

meggels said:


> I think homecooked would be too expensive though
> 
> His premade was about $2 a lb, so not too bad.
> 
> I might also try him on EB's Great Plains Feast. But I have 5.5 lb bag of the 6 fish from Orijen to get through first....


Maybe trying a portion (25%? ) home-cooked along with a high grade kibble your dog does well on could be a successful route for you right now. That way your dog will continue to be exposed to something other than highly processed kibble. Humans don't all equally thrive on the same diet; so I suspect it might be the same for dogs.


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## schtuffy (May 17, 2010)

Meggels, sorry to hear Murph didn't do well on the premade raw. I agree with others that giving full PMR a try down the road would be a good idea. Louis was a little fat munchkin when he was on Orijen, even at less than half a cup a day. On PMR, he's a lean sack of bones. Actually about a month ago I noticed how skinny he was. He's lost 3 lbs since his kibble days, which is a lot for him. So I'm back to tweaking, slowly increasing his meals so he puts some more weight on. It's been a month and he's slowly (VERY slowly) getting fatter. I probably feed close to 4%...I guess this little guy just metabolizes things really fast! The funny thing is, he was so skinny but SO energetic. At 2 months, Murph's body was probably still trying to learn to efficiently digest the raw food.

I think giving RMBs a few times a week is better than nothing. I also think it's very important to transition when you are ready, because it will decrease the chances of you changing your mind :smile: Orijen is great, I used to feed it and I love it. But don't give up on raw, come back when you are ready. We will be here to help :biggrin:


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## Celt (Dec 27, 2010)

I found this recipe that is suppose to help put weight on a dog. It's called Satin Balls. It might not be appropriate for your dog because it uses wheat flakes (Total) and wheat germ. I've never tried it but lots of people swear by it.
*"Satin Balls" Recipe and Instructions* 
*Small Recipe Ingredients* 
•	1 lb cheap hamburger (for high fat %)
•	1 and 1/3 cups Total cereal
•	1 and 1/2 cups uncooked oatmeal
•	1 egg (*boiled in the shell for 30 seconds) 
•	6 Tablespoons wheat germ
•	2 Tablespoons vegetable oil
•	2 Tablespoons unsulphered molasses
•	A pinch of salt 
•	1 package Knox Joint gelatin
(unflavored gelatin can be used instead)
*Full Recipe* 
•	10 lbs cheap hamburger (high fat %)
•	1 large box Total cereal (about 12 cups cereal)
•	1 large box uncooked oatmeal (about 15 cups oats)
•	10 eggs (*boiled in the shell for 30 seconds)
•	1 15oz jar wheat germ 
•	1 and 1/4 cup vegetable oil
•	1 and 1/4 cup unsulphered molasses
•	A pinch of salt
•	10 packages Knox Joint gelatin
(unflavored gelatin can be used instead)

Directions: Mix all ingredients together, much like you would a meatloaf. Include entire eggs, shells and all.
Mix completely, then roll into "meatballs" or "patties", store in quart freezer bags or tupperware, and freeze.
Thaw as needed, and feed raw!
DO NOT COOK. This recipe is fed fresh and raw.
*(Boiling the eggs for 30 seconds denatures the whites, while leaving the benefits of the uncooked yolks intact.)


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## meggels (May 30, 2010)

Some good friends of mine want me to put Murph on Dynamite products. They've had great success with their horses and dogs (separate products). I'm not sure. I might give it a try for the hell of it at this point.


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