# Feeding a Senior Dog



## RowdyDog (Jul 6, 2016)

Does anyone have any thoughts on feeding a senior dog (8+) an adult food for 2-6 yr dogs?


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## MarieLovesChis (Mar 25, 2014)

I see no reason to feed an older dog "senior" food. There is nothing special in senior dog food. Some add glucosamine and lower the protein and fat. The amount of glucosamine added to dog food is nowhere near enough to help with any joint problems an older dog might develop. You would be better off adding your own supplement.

Lowering protein for senior dogs has been proven to be a negative thing because older dogs actually need a bit more protein than the average younger dog. This doesn't mean you have to feed a high protein diet but I certainly don't like all of those senior formulas that have around 18%-22% protein. There are also plenty of adult foods that have a good amount of protein but have lower fat and calories if your senior isn't so active anymore.

For these reasons, I see no benefit in switching to a senior food. My dog is 9 years old and does great on her normal adult dog food. No reason to change up her food when she is perfectly healthy on what she's eating.


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## InkedMarie (Sep 9, 2011)

With the exception of Orijen senior, most of the senior foods are too low in protein. Senior dogs need a higher protein food.


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## EmmaRoo (Apr 3, 2016)

Hi Rowdy,
I can't speak for other brands, but I can tell you that VeRUS Pet Foods has two excellent options for senior dogs. They are "Life Virtue" (24% protein) and "Cold Water Fish" (26% protein). I have been feeding mine the Cold Water Fish formula. My 11 y-o Golden is much more active with this food than she was before I tried this. Where before everything she did was done at a walk, now she runs, she twirls, and she acts so much more like she did at 5 years. 

If you'd like to try it out to see how your dog responds, contact VeRUS through their website (veruspetfoods.com). If you fill out their contact form, they will email you with questions to determine the best samples for your dog. They were spot on with mine!


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## Anna O (Jul 29, 2016)

I haven't found any need to change the type of food I feed my sr. dog. I'm with Emma Roo on Verus. it's good food. I've fed it for years and have had ZERO issues and found no need to change as my dogs grew older.


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## Dr Dolittle (Aug 2, 2013)

The reason for senior foods is a valid one. When a dog hits about 7 or 8 the risk of certain age related disease goes way up, such as heart disease, and kidney disease and arthritis and obesity. So nutritionally controlling protein but especially minerals like phosphorus and sodium become more important. The idea older dogs need more protein than what they are getting in pet food is crazy. They need amino acids at optimal levels, not more being better. The fact is most so called senior foods are in no way senior foods anyway! AS someone mentioned, Origen Senior is not senior in any way shape or form! SOrry EmmaRoo, I know you love versus foods but I finally went to their website. Nothing new for me! I could not find a nutrient panel to see the actual as fed level of protein, phosphorus, or sodium, etc, just ingredient claims. I was disappointed to see the adult foods are just formulated and never went thru feeding trials and that they are for all life stages,Mohicans means their nutrient levels are high enough for puppies, making them all puppy foods. the guaranteed analysis looks pretty good but without the actual numbers I really have no idea of the formula, except again, being high enough for puppies, I would not feed it to my older dogs. They throw around the term Holistic a lot in their marketing but I wonder how many people know that, unlike Natural and Organic, the word Holistic has absolutely no legal definition concerning pet food so though it sounds great,met means nothing.When I get a chance I will call the company and see if they can give me some actual nutrient levels, including ones I have already mentioned, plus L-Carnitine, a great nutrient, and the antioxidant package, mainly Vit E and C. I would tell anyone with an older dog, get basic blood work every year. if kidneys and such are strong and healthy you probably can get away wasting your money on these designer foods but when kidney values start going up, it's time to get more rational and do what's best for the dog.


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## MarieLovesChis (Mar 25, 2014)

I would hardly call the statement "older dogs need more protein" as just an "idea". It isn't some sentence that someone decided to pull out of their a** one day...

Nor did anyone say they aren't getting enough from pet food. The point is, purposely lowering the protein of a perfectly healthy senior for no other reason other than "oh she's old so why not" has no proven benefits from what I can find. Yet you can find studies that show the exact opposite, that lowering it can cause other issues.


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## Dr Dolittle (Aug 2, 2013)

MarieLovesChis said:


> I would hardly call the statement "older dogs need more protein" as just an "idea". It isn't some sentence that someone decided to pull out of their a** one day...
> 
> Nor did anyone say they aren't getting enough from pet food. The point is, purposely lowering the protein of a perfectly healthy senior for no other reason other than "oh she's old so why not" has no proven benefits from what I can find. Yet you can find studies that show the exact opposite, that lowering it can cause other issues.


Marie, yes, there are studies like Finco and some from U of PA from the 90's so let's call it a theory then. The fact is at least at this point, to feed excessive protein, more than the dog can utilize, makes no sense. There isn't one protein deficient diet out there, based on nutrition science anyway. When I look at the extreme protein levels of foods like Origen and the like, I know that is not based on clinical studies but based on great marketing selling the idea of more meat and dogs are carnivores, all false statements. It would be very easy for a 1st year vet student to do a study on muscle misting due to low protein. It simply isn't happening. Sorry, I am the one mentioning that all commercial food is way higher in protein than really needed, but that's driven by popular demand. As I said, if you're doing blood work and BUN and Creantinie stays stable, you can feed all the excess protein you want(well some will turn to fat so that's not good) but when those tired kidneys start failing, to not lower and increase the quality of the protein and restrict phosphorus and sodium is really animal abuse. But as you are probably thinking, the theories to prevent are a bit different than the theories to manage a disease. And I have to laugh anyway at senior foods designed around people the wolf. Wolves done't get to be seniors! There's no geriatrics in the wild. So nutrition science is just the opposite of nature,mellowing cats to live into their 20's and dogs into their high teens. My last Berner lived to be a month short of 13. That sure wasn't from treating her like a wolf!


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## naturalfeddogs (Jan 6, 2011)

Dr Dolittle said:


> Marie, yes, there are studies like Finco and some from U of PA from the 90's so let's call it a theory then. The fact is at least at this point, to feed excessive protein, more than the dog can utilize, makes no sense. There isn't one protein deficient diet out there, based on nutrition science anyway. When I look at the extreme protein levels of foods like Origen and the like, I know that is not based on clinical studies but based on great marketing selling the idea of more meat and dogs are carnivores, all false statements. It would be very easy for a 1st year vet student to do a study on muscle misting due to low protein. It simply isn't happening. Sorry, I am the one mentioning that all commercial food is way higher in protein than really needed, but that's driven by popular demand. As I said, if you're doing blood work and BUN and Creantinie stays stable, you can feed all the excess protein you want(well some will turn to fat so that's not good) but when those tired kidneys start failing, to not lower and increase the quality of the protein and restrict phosphorus and sodium is really animal abuse. But as you are probably thinking, the theories to prevent are a bit different than the theories to manage a disease. And I have to laugh anyway at senior foods designed around people the wolf. Wolves done't get to be seniors! There's no geriatrics in the wild. So nutrition science is just the opposite of nature,mellowing cats to live into their 20's and dogs into their high teens. My last Berner lived to be a month short of 13. That sure wasn't from treating her like a wolf!


Everything I have ever read and known about wolves, is that they live on average in the wild around 8 years. Considering their size, that's pretty good. (Think Danes, mastiffs.) And its not unheard of for them to make it to age 13 in the wild also. For pet dogs of that size, that's about it for them as well. The ones who die sooner don't die from a poor diet, but from lack of prey, or injuries preventing them from being able to hunt.


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## MarieLovesChis (Mar 25, 2014)

I never recommended feeding something high like Orijen which is 38% protein, though I do sometimes feed foods that high, my dog is typically on a food that is about 26% protein. I guess everyone has their opinion on what's high, IMO that isn't high. Pretty moderate. I can't see why a healthy senior dog would need to go even lower. I'm more of a "if it ain't broke don't fix it" type of person so I can't see the benefit of switching around my oldie's food and potentially cause a lot of stomach upset.

Remember that percentage isn't everything either. I can have two foods with the same percentage of protein and yet because one is lower in calories I feed more of it, which means my dog is getting more grams of protein from that food despite the two foods having the same percentage. So percentage doesn't say it all for me. I also highly doubt there is one perfect percentage of protein that's perfect for all senior dogs. If there is I'd love to know what that perfect number is.

As for wolves, I know plenty live to old ages in sanctuaries but I have no idea what they're fed there so I can't comment on that. I have a good feeling the reason wolves live longer in sanctuaries has much more to do with they have people to look after them and cure ailments. Not much to do with diet. So I don't think the lifespan of a wolf discredits the people who believe high protein is best. I agree though, my Chihuahua is not a wolf and doesn't necessarily need to eat like one. ADD: Oh, but she sure does love the taste of that Merrick Backcountry kibble, you know the one with the wolf on the bag and is supposed to be "like an ancestral diet". No kibble is similar to what a wolf would eat anyway. That isn't why I've fed it. My friend gave me what was left of hers because her dog didn't like it. My dog loved it and her stool was perfect so yea sometimes I grab a bag of that to make her happy, she loves it. I don't give her that high protein food because I think it's just like a wolf's diet, I just grab it because she enjoys it, output is good, and it's available at the Petco down the street so why not. I don't put that much thought into why I'm buying a brand tbh.


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## Dr Dolittle (Aug 2, 2013)

Natural fed dogs, I agree. yet 8 is about the time we start feeding with geriatric concerns. that's my point. You can't use a wolf to come up with an example of an optimal geriatric diet.


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## Dr Dolittle (Aug 2, 2013)

Marie, couldn't agree more on your comment on percentages of protein. IT is actually called the protein/fat ratio! As you said, the same protein percentage could be very different if the calorie content is lower. That's why getting the actual as fed level of protein is much more accurate. GRams of protein per kcals is actually the best but when I call most food companies they have no idea what I'm talking about!LOL! TBO! My 3 dogs can one food becasue they simply love the taste, but it's a great nutrient profile too. But they did choose it!


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## naturalfeddogs (Jan 6, 2011)

Dr Dolittle said:


> Natural fed dogs, I agree. yet 8 is about the time we start feeding with geriatric concerns. that's my point. You can't use a wolf to come up with an example of an optimal geriatric diet.


It was said earlier geriatric wolves don't exsist. They do. That's what I'm saying, not any examples of diets.


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## Dr Dolittle (Aug 2, 2013)

naturalfeddogs said:


> It was said earlier geriatric wolves don't exsist. They do. That's what I'm saying, not any examples of diets.


agreed, if you consider 8 old. But a vet clinic would be shut down if the a age life expectancy of their dogs was 8. From eight years old on you are formulating diets based on our knowledge of nutrition science since we cannot look to nature to show us how we can keep a 13 year old dog healthy. We are on our own. The idea of saying lets make a diet that mirrors the natural diet of a senior wolf is pure marketing, not science. As someone else said, the cause of death of wolves is not poor diet but a host of other causes. BTW! I know of a few wolf sanctuaries and have spoken to the vets that serve them and it is interesting how our domesticated furry friends seem to have so many issues while these wolves safe in captivity seem to thrive on almost anything and everything, from raw diets to cheap kibble, to just about anything. Shows how our messing with the gene pool to produce our various breeds really is not the best thing!


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## naturalfeddogs (Jan 6, 2011)

Dr Dolittle said:


> agreed, if you consider 8 old. But a vet clinic would be shut down if the a age life expectancy of their dogs was 8. From eight years old on you are formulating diets based on our knowledge of nutrition science since we cannot look to nature to show us how we can keep a 13 year old dog healthy. We are on our own. The idea of saying lets make a diet that mirrors the natural diet of a senior wolf is pure marketing, not science. As someone else said, the cause of death of wolves is not poor diet but a host of other causes. BTW! I know of a few wolf sanctuaries and have spoken to the vets that serve them and it is interesting how our domesticated furry friends seem to have so many issues while these wolves safe in captivity seem to thrive on almost anything and everything, from raw diets to cheap kibble, to just about anything. Shows how our messing with the gene pool to produce our various breeds really is not the best thing!


8 IS old for a dog 100# or more, which wolves are. Chi's and other smaller breeds not so much. The larger the dog, the shorter the lifespan. I am the one (and maybe someone else) who said wolves don't die from poor/deficient diet when they are in the wild. In captivity, that's another story. If they do, then it's human fault. They just have to eat what they are given. They may be able to "live" on cheap junk fed in some sanctuaries, but if fed raw, the way they should eat then they will "thrive". There is a difference. 

But back to my original point, there are geriatric wolves in the wild.


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## Celt (Dec 27, 2010)

Nothing geriactic survives for long in the wild. Age causes loss of muscle strength, slower recovery time, and weaker immune systems/skeletal frame. Wild creatures don't have the option of "slowing down" that our domisticated pets have. Add in medical treatments and diet becomes less of a determiner in length of life span.


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## chowder (Sep 7, 2008)

In response to the OP original question, I don't change the diet of my older dogs just like I don't change my diet versus my children's just because of age. I do monitor activity levels and will reduce the amount of food they get as they slow down or if there is a specific medical reason for a diet change. But there's no magic age where I say 'hey, you're old and will get special food now'. There is really no reason to think we should be treating dogs totally different then we treat ourselves. We have all these special life stages food for dogs and breed specific foods for dogs - yet we take our grandparents and kids both to dinner at the same restaurant


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

also, in response, i do what chowder does......their diet is varied and it changes when the dog tells me a change needs to be made

my beloved malia, when she turned 15...decided to stop eating........i am a hardcore raw feeder; yet, i would put raw, kibble, cooked, whatever she would eat, in her bowl......whatever she wanted......
at that point, she was not interested in food , per se. and i would not allow my beliefs to stand in the way of getting some nutrition into her.

but that's life at the extreme ....normally, they eat what they are served ........so, if there are no issues, keep on keepin' on......assess appetite, activity and attitude.


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## Spy Car (Apr 16, 2015)

Dr Dolittle said:


> agreed, if you consider 8 old. But a vet clinic would be shut down if the a age life expectancy of their dogs was 8. From eight years old on you are formulating diets based on our knowledge of nutrition science since we cannot look to nature to show us how we can keep a 13 year old dog healthy. We are on our own. The idea of saying lets make a diet that mirrors the natural diet of a senior wolf is pure marketing, not science. As someone else said, the cause of death of wolves is not poor diet but a host of other causes. BTW! I know of a few wolf sanctuaries and have spoken to the vets that serve them and it is interesting how our domesticated furry friends seem to have so many issues while these wolves safe in captivity seem to thrive on almost anything and everything, from raw diets to cheap kibble, to just about anything. Shows how our messing with the gene pool to produce our various breeds really is not the best thing!


I've seen nothing in the scientific literature that suggests raising the ratio of nonessential carbohydrates in the diet is of a benefit to senior dogs. 

Bill


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## Dr Dolittle (Aug 2, 2013)

Spy Car said:


> I've seen nothing in the scientific literature that suggests raising the ratio of nonessential carbohydrates in the diet is of a benefit to senior dogs.
> 
> Bill


BIll, I would agree about carbs, but usually some added fiber in the diet has been shown to be beneficial for senior dogs whose GI tracts don't work like they used to, but that is an individual thing.


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## Dr Dolittle (Aug 2, 2013)

I may have mentioned it already and it really is just anecdotal, but I think most of us would agree good dog owners are feeding more and more expensive fad diets that are much higher in protein and mineral levels than the older foods of a decade ago. With that in mind, it is interesting that therapeutic diets sold by vets, all brands included, have seen a dramatic increase in renal(kidney) diets to manage kidney disease and GI diets to manage GI upsets. These vets are just deciding to push these diets! They are seeing the cases for needing them. I could be dead wrong but it seems to me, with the trend toward higher protein foods, we should see a reduction in kidney disease or at least not an increase. Of course, one could say with dogs living longer we would see more renal issues, but I know many of these renal cases are younger dogs. Again, we all are really debating risk levels. We can only prove the benefits of controlled, higher quality protein on dogs with actual kidney disease, but when changing diet can improve blood values without any other therapy, that's pretty convincing. If there was proof of protein deficiencies than I would be more willing to feed higher protein. With newer tests to detect renal insufficiency much earlier, in a few more years the debate may be a bit different. Time will tell.


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## MarieLovesChis (Mar 25, 2014)

Really I don't think its fair to say high protein is what's causing problems. It makes much more sense to me that the QUALITY of the protein is what is causing problems. It just so happens to be that a lot of high protein foods right now have excess amounts of calcium, phosphorus, pea protein, etc. If a company is using good sources of protein without all the excess crap, then I don't see the problem with feeding a high protein food. Seems odd to blame protein as a whole. There might not be as many, but there are definitely some higher protein foods out there that don't come with an excess of everything else.

Maybe you don't see a benefit in higher protein, but I do. Again, I'm not talking 40% protein, as I don't feed foods that high too often. A good reason I don't like to keep my dog's protein low is that carbs fatten her up real quick. My vet helped me figure that one out recently after her weight blew up again on a lower protein low fat food. I can feed MORE of a decent higher protein food, as opposed to a lower protein food. I typically feed foods that are 30% protein, some may consider that high, I don't. There's only one 26% protein food I feed that she doesn't balloon on. Anything containing over 35% carbs, I have to cut her calories so low I risk nutritionally starving her. Naturally, you will need a food that isn't low in protein to get lower carbs. So as of right now, I can't see the so called benefits of lowering my senior's protein.


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## Spy Car (Apr 16, 2015)

Dr Dolittle said:


> BIll, I would agree about carbs, but usually some added fiber in the diet has been shown to be beneficial for senior dogs whose GI tracts don't work like they used to, but that is an individual thing.


Senior diets are often low in both fat and protein, which inevitably means the percentage of calories from carbohydrates goes up.

Where is the evidence for increased kidney disease rates in dogs or for higher protein foods being a causal factor in kidney disease? 

There are studies on protein levels that show dogs getting less than 30% protein rations are prone to muscle tears and they repair poorly from those tears, and that the lower one goes below 30% the worse the situation becomes in those regards. Dogs fed over 30% rations are virtually insulated from muscle tears.

When it comes to elimination the worst thing one can do is to over-feed a senior dog (in terms of mass). 

Here a higher fat ration is much preferable as fat has more than twice the calories per unit of weight (9 kcals/gram vs 4 for carbohydrates). So one can feed a lot less mass. That is a huge positive.

Dogs are also much more efficient in maintaining energy when metabolizing fats (which provide nearly inexhaustible stores) vs the spikes that come with feeding carbs. Aerobic capacity (as measured by VO2Max) soars when dogs (even sedentary dogs) metabolize fat vs carbohydrates as their primary energy source.

So feeding a senior smaller rations with higher protein and higher fat is a kindness to an older dog unless there is some contraindication to do otherwise.

Bill


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## Dr Dolittle (Aug 2, 2013)

MarieLovesChis said:


> Really I don't think its fair to say high protein is what's causing problems. It makes much more sense to me that the QUALITY of the protein is what is causing problems. It just so happens to be that a lot of high protein foods right now have excess amounts of calcium, phosphorus, pea protein, etc. If a company is using good sources of protein without all the excess crap, then I don't see the problem with feeding a high protein food. Seems odd to blame protein as a whole. There might not be as many, but there are definitely some higher protein foods out there that don't come with an excess of everything else.
> 
> Maybe you don't see a benefit in higher protein, but I do. Again, I'm not talking 40% protein, as I don't feed foods that high too often. A good reason I don't like to keep my dog's protein low is that carbs fatten her up real quick. My vet helped me figure that one out recently after her weight blew up again on a lower protein low fat food. I can feed MORE of a decent higher protein food, as opposed to a lower protein food. I typically feed foods that are 30% protein, some may consider that high, I don't. There's only one 26% protein food I feed that she doesn't balloon on. Anything containing over 35% carbs, I have to cut her calories so low I risk nutritionally starving her. Naturally, you will need a food that isn't low in protein to get lower carbs. So as of right now, I can't see the so called benefits of lowering my senior's protein.


Marie, you are absolutely right and shame on me for not really addressing it. If you were a vet student reading about the risk factors of renal disease you would be reading almost all about phosphorus and not protein. The quality of the protein is exactly the concern in senior dogs, and cats. Phosphorus is the real culprit in the protein, from bone, hair, hoof, feathers, etc. an excellent protein source will provide the amino acids but keep phosphorus low. If you look at phosphorus levels in your food vs others you will have a much better idea of the quality of the protein source, never mind the name or description, and you will know how safe it is for your dog as they age. Egg is actually a wonderful protein source to use with meat to reduce nitrogen waste and phosphorus levels. With diseased kidneys, even corn gluten meal can be a great source as well. So you bring up a great point for those of you that like higher protein. Check phosphorus levels and go with the lowest you can find. Not the number on the bag! You have to call the company and get their actual amount. The 38% protein levels I see in foods these days has absolutely no basis in nutrition, just marketing, that's all I'm trying to say.


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## MarieLovesChis (Mar 25, 2014)

Agree 100%
I think the biggest problem is that an overwhelming majority of high protein foods tend to be very high in phosphorus. I would assume this is why most vets just state high protein foods aren't ideal for seniors. I'm sure they're well aware the protein itself is not the problem, but why bother feeding the high protein foods when almost all of them use low quality protein to reach those numbers right?

There are high protein foods out there that aren't ridiculously high in phosphorus though, no matter how few and far between. So I think vets should really stop placing the blame on the protein. I'll stick to more moderate levels of protein as it's what works for my senior, and it isn't nearly as hard to find lower phosphorus levels in moderate foods. I personally think Farmina grain free is one of the best options if you want a high protein food that isn't high in everything else.

Checked up on that Backcountry food.. phosphorus is around 1.35% as fed. High, but not as high as I thought it would be for that food, calcium is pretty high at over 2% and ash ridiculously high at an average of 11%. Makes no difference to me though as I would never feed this food as my dog's sole diet. These numbers look like the average high protein food though sadly.


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## Spy Car (Apr 16, 2015)

Some of the posts seem to suggest that a high protein diet is a risk factor in causing renal disease when that is not the case.

High phosphorus is a symptom of renal disease, not the cause. Feeding high quality proteins (meat, eggs, and other animal products) with the proper balance of calcium and phosphorus is the best way forward for any dog. 

So called senior foods are usually loaded with low quality incomplete plant based proteins with imbalanced amino acid profiles that are bad for dogs developing renal disease, and bad for dogs generally.

Bill


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## MarieLovesChis (Mar 25, 2014)

I don't think anyone here stated high protein causes renal disease, maybe I missed someone's post. The issue is that many people, including vets, feel you should feed seniors a low protein diet because lower protein foods are typically much lower in phosphorus than the average high protein food. They are making the assumption that senior dogs may already be in the beginning stages of renal disease without the owner knowing, or that excess minerals will tax the kidneys over time. Therefore they want seniors on foods that don't have excessive amounts of phosphorus, not protein. Saying "feed a low protein diet" is just an easy lazy way to put it, as it's been known for a long time now that a food doesn't need to be low in protein to be good for a dog with renal disease. It's just that much easier to get low phosphorus levels with lower protein food.


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## Spy Car (Apr 16, 2015)

MarieLovesChis said:


> I don't think anyone here stated high protein causes renal disease, maybe I missed someone's post. The issue is that many people, including vets, feel you should feed seniors a low protein diet because lower protein foods are typically much lower in phosphorus than the average high protein food. They are making the assumption that senior dogs may already be in the beginning stages of renal disease without the owner knowing, or that excess minerals will tax the kidneys over time. Therefore they want seniors on foods that don't have excessive amounts of phosphorus, not protein. Saying "feed a low protein diet" is just an easy lazy way to put it, as it's been known for a long time now that a food doesn't need to be low in protein to be good for a dog with renal disease. It's just that much easier to get low phosphorus levels with lower protein food.


In my estimation it is not only lazy, but injurious to the health of senior dogs, to arbitrally put them on low protein diets. These diets are usually high in incomplete plant protein that put the most stress on kidneys by having to process unnecessary amino acids as waste.

Senior dogs do best on real food. Meat, fat, organs, eggs, fish, and bones in a ratio that delivers a balance of calcium, phosphorus, and vitamins. This sort of diet is good for all senior dogs, and is increasingly the choice of forward thinking people dealing with renal issues.

Dogs being shifted to even higher carbodydrate rations that the standard fare in kibbled diets (already too high) is heartbreaking. Quality proteins and fat are essential to good health in aging canines. It is troubling to read posts (not yours) that suggest quality protein is a problem in the diet. Putting seniors on high carbohydrate diets that have significant portions of plant proteins in the low-protein formula seems like the worst possible choice to me.

Bill


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## Dr Dolittle (Aug 2, 2013)

MArie, I was thinking the same thing as far as Farmina. they were the only company on here defending their phosphorus levels, which are very good compared to the popular high protein foods. I remember being impressed by what they were writing whenever that was...last year?


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## Dr Dolittle (Aug 2, 2013)

Spy Car said:


> In my estimation it is not only lazy, but injurious to the health of senior dogs, to arbitrally put them on low protein diets. These diets are usually high in incomplete plant protein that put the most stress on kidneys by having to process unnecessary amino acids as waste.
> 
> Senior dogs do best on real food. Meat, fat, organs, eggs, fish, and bones in a ratio that delivers a balance of calcium, phosphorus, and vitamins. This sort of diet is good for all senior dogs, and is increasingly the choice of forward thinking people dealing with renal issues.
> 
> ...


Bill, will have to disagree. first, let's keep dogs who are healthy seperate from dogs with renal disease. To say you want to increase protein on a renal patient cannot be supported by any evidence. Way too many studies showing how effective renal diets are, whatever the brand. And in these patients we would use more egg protein which is easy on the kidneys and also a few plant sources such as corn gluten meal, a great addition of amino acids but none of the nitrogen waste you get from meat. So the renal dog is a different animal in this discussion.
As far as senior diets for healthy dogs I have looked at most of them over the years and very few have any senior attributes except their names. You seem to not like carbs. Remember fiber, non digestible and digestible, gets listed as carbs but serve very different purposes. as Marie mentioned, and maybe you did too, the mineral content of the food is critical. yes, phosphorus is a measurement of kidney health but it is also a nutrient of concern in the diet. NO nutrient CAUSES disease. That is just in the genes. But it has been clearly shown that excesses increase the incidence in pets already at risk. We see it in cats on high sodium diets. high salt can be fed to most cats with no ill effect, but for cats with compromised kidneys their kidney values fly off the charts. The fact is that vets all over the world for a few decades have used renal diets, with controlled protein, higher quality though, and restricted phosphorus and sodium to normalize kidney values in dogs and cats and sometimes prevent the disease from killing them. I have seen the proof many times over the last 3 decades, and as you would too I'm sure, it heartwarming to see! As far as healthy dogs, the debate will go on forever I suppose. just do blood work every year on a dog over 7 or 8 would be my advice, though I am guilty of not doing it as faithfully as I should. Dental school may very well play a part in kidney health, much more than we ever realized.


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## Spy Car (Apr 16, 2015)

Dr Dolittle said:


> Bill, will have to disagree. first, let's keep dogs who are healthy seperate from dogs with renal disease. To say you want to increase protein on a renal patient cannot be supported by any evidence. Way too many studies showing how effective renal diets are, whatever the brand. And in these patients we would use more egg protein which is easy on the kidneys and also a few plant sources such as corn gluten meal, a great addition of amino acids but none of the nitrogen waste you get from meat. So the renal dog is a different animal in this discussion.
> As far as senior diets for healthy dogs I have looked at most of them over the years and very few have any senior attributes except their names. You seem to not like carbs. Remember fiber, non digestible and digestible, gets listed as carbs but serve very different purposes. as Marie mentioned, and maybe you did too, the mineral content of the food is critical. yes, phosphorus is a measurement of kidney health but it is also a nutrient of concern in the diet. NO nutrient CAUSES disease. That is just in the genes. But it has been clearly shown that excesses increase the incidence in pets already at risk. We see it in cats on high sodium diets. high salt can be fed to most cats with no ill effect, but for cats with compromised kidneys their kidney values fly off the charts. The fact is that vets all over the world for a few decades have used renal diets, with controlled protein, higher quality though, and restricted phosphorus and sodium to normalize kidney values in dogs and cats and sometimes prevent the disease from killing them. I have seen the proof many times over the last 3 decades, and as you would too I'm sure, it heartwarming to see! As far as healthy dogs, the debate will go on forever I suppose. just do blood work every year on a dog over 7 or 8 would be my advice, though I am guilty of not doing it as faithfully as I should. Dental school may very well play a part in kidney health, much more than we ever realized.


I'm more than happy to seperate healthy senior dogs from those with renal disease. If you are now stipulating that putting healthy dogs on a low protein so-called senior diet is a bad idea then I welcome the seeming change of heart, as it doesn't seem to conform with your earlier statement that "the idea older dogs need more protein than what they are getting in pet food is crazy."

As multiple other posters have pointed out a senior dog's needs for protein don't go down as they age, and there is some evidence they may go up. Most kibbled dog foods supply too little protein and too much of that insufficient protein is from low quality plant sources (with incomplete amino acid profiles) and most of the rest is from rendered sources. 

The upshot is these low quality "proteins" cause the kidneys to work too hard expressing waste relative to high quality sources (like fresh meat, eggs, and fowl). The less complete the amino acid profiles in the food the more wastes that need to be processed by the kidneys. Plant proteins, including the corn gluten meal you mentioned favorably, are incomple proteins used for their low cost to the producer (and not for dog's good health).

Kibbles are also dry unlike moisture-rich fresh meats (which help dogs stay hydrated). Dehydration puts further stain on kidneys (and other organ systems).

When, for example, a dog is fed a balanced PRM style diet with 10% bone, the calciumhosphorus ratios stay very close to the National Reseach Council's recommended 1.2:1 levels. Maintaining mineral and vitamin balances is important, and I've clashed with some fellow raw feeders on this forum over the issue. Maintaining the suggested Ca ratios minimizes risks of excess phosphorus (in health dogs and ones with renal failure).

When senior dogs get adequate high-quality protein from fresh foods (in balance) they don't suffer the negative consequences of muscle wasting and muscle tearing (with poor recovery) that dogs fed a restricted protein diet (that is usually high in low quality plant proteins) will inevitably suffer. 

Adding the adjective "excessive" in regards to formulas with adequate protein levels doesn't make it so.

Senior dogs, like all dogs, do best when fed saturated fats as their primary energy source. They have far more energy. Have need for less food (since fat is more than twice as calorie dense as carbohydrates), and fats are what dogs evolved to metabolize with maximum efficientcy. Fat metabolizm also creates stores which release energy steadily (unlike the peaks and valleys of carbohydrates, which cause crashes). Feeding dogs a high carb ration is a certain way to cut their energy and endurance relative to fat burning. Not a nice thing to do to a senior dog.

Nutrient dense meals (like a PRM diet) are kinder to the kidneys, as fewer proteins need to be processed with less waste than using incomplete low quality plant proteins and rendered animal proteins. They are also easier on the pancrease on both the endocrine side (as blood sugars remain stable when metabolizing fats) and on the exocrine side, as modern kibble diets strain the ability of the pancreas to produce the amounts of amylase (the digestive enzyme necessary to digest starches) required by high carbohydrate foods like typical "senior" diets.

When one looks at Hills Kidney Diet kibble it is kind of shocking. Naturally it is "dry" (and thereore de-hydrating) but the only animal protein in the whole formula is Hydrolyzed Chicken Liver. Despite eggs being known as one of the best food for dogs with kidney disease, there are no eggs in Hills. Hills protein is at 19% (a level that is so low it will inevitably cause problems) and equally concerning it the low level of fat (at 14.5%) which means instead of the dog getting nutrient dense food, it is getting a very high carbohydrate load. Good practice is to raise fats. In addition the fat in the Hills ration is the worst possible choice, soybean oil, a highly inflamitory polyunsaturated oil that is bound to compound health problems relative to heathful satutated fats.

Obviously special care needs to be taken with dogs experiencing uremia. But putting all senior dogs on a "senior diet" is not the nutritional answer for typical geriatriac canines. Increasingly it seems dubious that "prescription" diets are the best answer for dogs with kidney issues, as the side-effects are too high, and there are other alternatives involving fresh nutrient dense foods emerging.

Low protein diets for healthy senior dogs is not a good idea.

Bill


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## Dr Dolittle (Aug 2, 2013)

BIll, sorry for the confusion but I do believe there is plenty of reason to lower total protein to geriatric non azotemic dogs, but increasing quality. that means deliver all the amino acids needed, but reduce workload. We will have to differ on proteins and workload. Meat is a great protein source, highly digestible with lots of various amino acids, but in compromised kidneys, even at early stages, the nitrogen waste produced is hard on kidneys. IN healthy kidneys it is not an issue, to your point. That is where proteins like egg and corn gluten meal, the protein part of corn(not the carb) have great value becasue we can combine the sources, deliver all the amino acids, yet reduce workload. Egg and plant proteins produce less nitrogen waste. My last Berner lived to be a month short of 13 on a restricted protein diet and her kidneys were that of a 2 year old my vet said. Yes, I realize that is just one dog. I did look and the dry renal diet from Hills does in fact have egg protein, as it should, and corn gluten meal as well. again, egg is awesome but generally not needed in regular adult diets. corn gluten meal wouldn't be used either, except low grades in cheaper foods as you mentioned. Maybe you are mixing up total digestibility of proteins vs their workload on the kidneys. That Hills diet is actually the oldest diet out there of vet diets and it would be tough to argue with the amazing results it produces. IT also has increased Omega 3s from flax seed that have been shown to slow progression of the damage and buffering to reduce the metabolic acidosis, which basically produces the muscle wasting you mentioned. The acid load in the blood is the culprit, not deficient protein. At least you and I can agree controlling trace minerals like calcium and phosphorus are important in the healthy dog and critical in the renal dog. I can't really speak to the fresh and raw approach since I have no knowledge and most vet clients won't go there anyway. And we agree as far as fat having more than twice the energy density of protein or carbs. The problem with high fat diets, though they have their place as you mentioned, is that the average American dog owner is not anything like the folks on this forum. They over feed their dogs to gross obesity and early disease and death so most diets are made to address the vast majority of clients. Many high energy foods from years ago are gone now, sadly, due to obesity. Well, I mean high energy ADULT diets, not the high energy all life stage fad diets of today which are simply puppy foods. BTW! You might have been looking at the ingredients of a different diet. HIlls wouldn't spend the extra money to add hydrolyzed chicken liver. That is a process to break town protein molecules in allergy diets. The chicken liver flavor I saw on the bag is actually just a flavoring, sometimes listed by companies as Natual Flavoring or Animal Digest, depending on the brand. Lol! You def give me lots to think about! 30 years of doing this!


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## PomskyMom (Sep 12, 2016)

You need to feed a senior formula, not an adult formula.


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## InkedMarie (Sep 9, 2011)

PomskyMom said:


> You need to feed a senior formula, not an adult formula.


Why do they need a senior formula?


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## LProf (Nov 12, 2013)

I tried feeding the Acana Singles because I trust the Company and the Calcium and Phosphorus level seemed good, but one of my Pugs started licking and chewing on his paws. Because he is intolerant to flaxseed, I have had a really hard time finding a quality food that agreed with him, in terms of his coat, stools and no licking and bitting at paws. 

Out of desperation, I bought a bag of Taste of the Wild, Pacific Stream formula, and magically he stopped the licking and his stools are now back to normal, firm and small in volume.

The Calcium, Phosphorus and Sodium levels, on an as fed basis are: C-1.6; P-1%: and S-0.28%. It says that it it is for adult maintenance, not for all stages. I have also been mixing in some canned as a topper on the kibble.

Yes, I know it is made by Diamond, but I finally found a food that he seemingly is doing well on.

Question: Are those nutrient levels within an acceptable safe range? The Pug is 10 years old. 

Any other suggestions will be appreciated.


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## chowder (Sep 7, 2008)

If you found a food that he is doing well on, I would stay with it, no matter whether it says 'adult' or senior. I don't believe there is a magic age where the dog suddenly becomes a senior and needs their food changed based on their age unless they have a medical reason for it. You may have a 10 year old small dog and a 10 year old giant breed and they can be two vastly different 'real' ages. I have an 8 year old and a 10 1/2 year old that just had perfect senior blood panels. Neither one needs to have any changes in their diets because of age except maybe a lowering of food quantity due to lowering of exercise. They eat the exact same food as my 7 month old puppy. JMHO.


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## Dr Dolittle (Aug 2, 2013)

chowder said:


> If you found a food that he is doing well on, I would stay with it, no matter whether it says 'adult' or senior. I don't believe there is a magic age where the dog suddenly becomes a senior and needs their food changed based on their age unless they have a medical reason for it. You may have a 10 year old small dog and a 10 year old giant breed and they can be two vastly different 'real' ages. I have an 8 year old and a 10 1/2 year old that just had perfect senior blood panels. Neither one needs to have any changes in their diets because of age except maybe a lowering of food quantity due to lowering of exercise. They eat the exact same food as my 7 month old puppy. JMHO.


The key is you are doing blood tests. Most pet owners don't and don't know their beloved pets kidneys are shot till clinical signs start showing up when about 75% of function is gone. Way to go! Feeding a 7 month old the same food as those two older folks is hardly the most scientific approach but if you keep up on blood tests, you're all good.


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