# Question about rotational feeding :)



## 46and2 (Jan 1, 2013)

I feed my dog a rotation of different brands, proteins, and fillers. I find that there are many benefits to this way of feeding. 
I have heard from some that you should stick with 2-3 types of proteins (say beef, lamb and chicken), so that if your dog develops any allergies to a specific protein, then you have novel protein sources (duck, fish, and venison for example). I just wondered how true this is, if at all? Some brands have more then 3 proteins in them so should you avoid those foods? Does it really matter? I LOVED the Acana Duck and Bartlett Pear, should I not feed it and only use it as a back up (doesn't make sense to me to do this)? 
Also, how often do you switch their foods? I sometimes do it when a ~30 pound bag of food is finished and I sometimes do it when a ~15 pound bag of food is finished... are there any risks?
Sorry. That was a bit rambling...


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## Celt (Dec 27, 2010)

This is just my opinion, but I think feeding a variety of foods is better for a dog than not. I've always tried to feed as much variety as possible. No rhyme or reason to my feeding and I fed everything short of the kitchen sink. Personally, I had a few bags (small ones, about 3-4 different brands/flavor, etc) opened and fed a different one "daily", buying "replacement" bags (not always the same either) when needed. I think one is less likely to develop an "allergy" if fed a variety than if kept on just one formula. I have yet to have any health problems feeding this way.


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## DaViking (Sep 27, 2011)

I believe Celt's "No rhyme or reason" method is better than changing it up every other month or so. 50% because my gut is telling me so, 50% because of how dogs digestive system adapt over time. For the record, I don't do rotational feeding but I do mix up the diet somewhat by adding some fresh ingredients throughout the week.


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## monster'sdad (Jul 29, 2012)

Rotational feeding is completely illogical, unless you are a food company because many people will elect to buy food in small bags at a higher price per lb. Plus there is so much overlap in what is in food you are accomplishing nothing.

The idea that this is good for allergies is equally misquided. If you have a dog that is predisposed to allergies, as rare as that is, the last thing you want is variety. It would be much better to start with a clean slate if you have a problem down the road.

Why expose a dog to venison or bison now if it is doing fine on chicken?


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## Celt (Dec 27, 2010)

monster'sdad, I don't feed a variety to prevent allergies or to fix any imbalance that might be in one brands formula (yup, a dog nutrtion book said this). I do it simply because by feeding this way, my pups can eat pretty much anything without a "transition period" or tummy "problems". If a brand changes formula, is no longer produced, recalled, or not in stock, I don't have to worry about any kind of digestive issues, whether incomplete absorbtion/digestion of the food or soft stools when I change what my pups eat. Is it more expensive? Yes, but feeding this way gives me peace of mind.


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## monster'sdad (Jul 29, 2012)

Celt said:


> monster'sdad, I don't feed a variety to prevent allergies or to fix any imbalance that might be in one brands formula (yup, a dog nutrtion book said this). I do it simply because by feeding this way, my pups can eat pretty much anything without a "transition period" or tummy "problems". If a brand changes formula, is no longer produced, recalled, or not in stock, I don't have to worry about any kind of digestive issues, whether incomplete absorbtion/digestion of the food or soft stools when I change what my pups eat. Is it more expensive? Yes, but feeding this way gives me peace of mind.



How frequently is something out of stock, changed radically, recalled or no longer available?


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## DaViking (Sep 27, 2011)

Celt said:


> monster'sdad, I don't feed a variety to prevent allergies or to fix any imbalance that might be in one brands formula (yup, a dog nutrtion book said this). I do it simply because by feeding this way, my pups can eat pretty much anything without a "transition period" or tummy "problems". If a brand changes formula, is no longer produced, recalled, or not in stock, I don't have to worry about any kind of digestive issues, whether incomplete absorbtion/digestion of the food or soft stools when I change what my pups eat. Is it more expensive? Yes, but feeding this way gives me peace of mind.


Can I ask if you have say 4 to 8 formulas you feed randomly or do you go through something like 26 formulas per year?


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## monster'sdad (Jul 29, 2012)

DaViking said:


> Can I ask if you have say 4 to 8 formulas you feed randomly or do you go through something like 26 formulas per year?


I remember one poster said she fed one food in the morning and one food at night.


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## Celt (Dec 27, 2010)

I have no idea on how many I've used. Most times, I would picked up a bag or two either because it was something new or on sale and just added it in when a bag ran out. I wasn't joking about everything but the kitchen sink. I've fed good, mediocre and "bad" kibble, same with canned, meat rolls, homecooked, scraps, raw, dehydrated and premade raw. It's been along time since I've fed seperate meals (just started again this week, ended up with a surprise puppy on Monday) but generally it would be the same food for the day unless I was low on that food. Right now, I've been getting sample bags and leaving it down (2 oz. at a time) with premade raw (4 oz.-3xs a day for the pup, 1/2 oz-2xs a day and 3oz-once a day for the boys) fed at "scheduled meal times". So the new pup has eaten Signature Select lamb and Instincts salmon meal formula kibble (was on pedigree) along with Nature's Variety lamb or venison premade raw (kinda limited on foods right now) and will be getting some tripett tomorrow along with some primal dehydrated lamb. I'll probably pick up a couple of bags of kibble on Sunday from Petsmart/petbarn with more "select" foods being picked up on Wednesday.
It's true that the scenarios I used probably don't happen often but they can happen (and from what I've read it doesn't take a radical change to cause problems). Like I said this way of feeding is mostly for my peace of mind. In case, something happens I won't have to worry about feeding my pups. I can be a bit neurotic, if you couldn't tell. lol


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## 46and2 (Jan 1, 2013)

DaViking said:


> I believe Celt's "No rhyme or reason" method is better than changing it up every other month or so. 50% because my gut is telling me so, 50% because of how dogs digestive system adapt over time. For the record, I don't do rotational feeding but I do mix up the diet somewhat by adding some fresh ingredients throughout the week.


Could you elaborate on this entire paragraph. I don't understand it...


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## 46and2 (Jan 1, 2013)

monster'sdad said:


> Rotational feeding is completely illogical, unless you are a food company because many people will elect to buy food in small bags at a higher price per lb. Plus there is so much overlap in what is in food you are accomplishing nothing.
> 
> The idea that this is good for allergies is equally misquided. If you have a dog that is predisposed to allergies, as rare as that is, the last thing you want is variety. It would be much better to start with a clean slate if you have a problem down the road.
> 
> Why expose a dog to venison or bison now if it is doing fine on chicken?


Why is rotational feeding illogical? What I choose to pay for dog food is no skin off of your so I don't know why you are mentioning it?
I just paid $5 for a Cornish hen that my dog ate for supper. My dog wasn't complaining.


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## monster'sdad (Jul 29, 2012)

46and2 said:


> Why is rotational feeding illogical? What I choose to pay for dog food is no skin off of your so I don't know why you are mentioning it?
> I just paid $5 for a Cornish hen that my dog ate for supper. My dog wasn't complaining.



Because some of the dog food companies market "rotational feeding" as having some particular nutritional and medical benefits which are not true. 

The end-game is to get a portion of the consumers to use smaller bags. If consumers feed different foods because they like to that's one thing, if they believe there is some benefit that is another.


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## Felix (Oct 9, 2012)

This is how I feed my cats. They have a different thing for each meal. And when I run out of a 15# bag of dry I switch it. I rarely buy the same kind twice. By the time they finish a new one, there is another food I want to try, sometimes they will get the same brand, but after about 2-3 years, and only if it's something they did exceptionally well on or ate really well. I'm about to run out of food again and already have my eye on a particular brand. 

The dog gets pretty much the same thing unfortunately, only because he doesn't do well on most foods. But he gets variety through canned and raw, so I'm happy with the way they are all being fed.


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## DaViking (Sep 27, 2011)

46and2 said:


> Could you elaborate on this entire paragraph. I don't understand it...


If you feed a fixed mix of formulas randomly throughout the week (which is my defenition of "no rhyme or reason", Celt's is a little different) the body will treat that as *one diet* with a lot of ingredients. The digestive system will adapt to that and you reap the varied diet benefits many subscribe to. If you feed one formula for a few months and then switch to something significantly different there will be a period where the dog have to retool if you like. This is true for all canids but how "severe" the digestive upsets are will differ from dog to dog. Some display very few symptoms while others have full on diarrhea for days and take several weeks to settle down. There isn't a "one size fits all" answer here. It varies a lot and the differences in the food plays a big role. One example of this is going from a formula with added digestive enzymes to a completely different food without added enzymes. In other cases the foods can be so similar that the switch shouldn't cause much issues.

We also have to look at this practically. Does it matter if your average pooch have a short period with some upsets? No it doesn't. What matter much more is how well all the formulas you rotate among are digested by your dog. There are a myriad of alternatives but finding multiple foods that are perfect for the individual dog are harder than it sounds. It all depends how high you want to set your standards.


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## Caty M (Aug 13, 2010)

I also like that way of feeding, it's a good idea never to HAVE to rely on one brand in case of a problem!


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## 46and2 (Jan 1, 2013)

monster'sdad said:


> Because some of the dog food companies market "rotational feeding" as having some particular nutritional and medical benefits which are not true.
> 
> The end-game is to get a portion of the consumers to use smaller bags. If consumers feed different foods because they like to that's one thing, if they believe there is some benefit that is another.


I never began rotational feeding because a company advocated it. You can't argue that there would be benefits to your dog's digestive tract being accustomed to multiple foods in the event of a recall? Or can you?


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## 46and2 (Jan 1, 2013)

DaViking said:


> If you feed a fixed mix of formulas randomly throughout the week (which is my defenition of "no rhyme or reason", Celt's is a little different) the body will treat that as *one diet* with a lot of ingredients. The digestive system will adapt to that and you reap the varied diet benefits many subscribe to. If you feed one formula for a few months and then switch to something significantly different there will be a period where the dog have to retool if you like. This is true for all canids but how "severe" the digestive upsets are will differ from dog to dog. Some display very few symptoms while others have full on diarrhea for days and take several weeks to settle down. There isn't a "one size fits all" answer here. It varies a lot and the differences in the food plays a big role. One example of this is going from a formula with added digestive enzymes to a completely different food without added enzymes. In other cases the foods can be so similar that the switch shouldn't cause much issues.
> 
> We also have to look at this practically. Does it matter if your average pooch have a short period with some upsets? No it doesn't. What matter much more is how well all the formulas you rotate among are digested by your dog. There are a myriad of alternatives but finding multiple foods that are perfect for the individual dog are harder than it sounds. It all depends how high you want to set your standards.


Ok. I understand what you are saying now. 
My dog is rotated every few weeks with no digestive issues. I agree with you when you say one size doesn't fit all, I agree with that whole heartedly and I wish some would see the obviousness of that statement. 
Some dogs cannot handle rotational feeding and I understand that


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## Sheltielover25 (Jan 18, 2011)

The animal I feed kibble in my house eats the same brand but we always cycle through the proteins so each time she gets a new protein -- venison, lamb, rabbit and then some have fish also.

I have to really trust the company that produces/manufactures the food so I couldn't go in blindy and buy a different bag each time but I do believe there is value in switching up the proteins. I know for a fact each organ offers different things so I know there is value to each protein's organs individually. 

I'm not sure where one gets off saying it's a marketing ploy switching up foods/proteins. No animal in the wild would ever eat the same protein over and over again so it seems silly to think we should stray from that. The company I use doesn't really advertise so we can't even apply that to my animal's food. Before settling on the food we feed now, I did buy a different brand each time. I've seen recalls from say, forgetting to add taurine to cat food, so if my cat ate that food solely she would have been in big trouble. Sure they might not happen frequently, but the fact they happen is enough for me to rotate unless I fully trust the company I'm purchasing the food from.


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## 46and2 (Jan 1, 2013)

Sheltielover25 said:


> The animal I feed kibble in my house eats the same brand but we always cycle through the proteins so each time she gets a new protein -- venison, lamb, rabbit and then some have fish also.
> 
> I have to really trust the company that produces/manufactures the food so I couldn't go in blindy and buy a different bag each time but I do believe there is value in switching up the proteins. I know for a fact each organ offers different things so I know there is value to each protein's organs individually.
> 
> I'm not sure where one gets off saying it's a marketing ploy switching up foods/proteins. No animal in the wild would ever eat the same protein over and over again so it seems silly to think we should stray from that. The company I use doesn't really advertise so we can't even apply that to my animal's food. Before settling on the food we feed now, I did buy a different brand each time. I've seen recalls from say, forgetting to add taurine to cat food, so if my cat ate that food solely she would have been in big trouble. Sure they might not happen frequently, but the fact they happen is enough for me to rotate unless I fully trust the company I'm purchasing the food from.


I am not rotational feeding to fulfill some fantasy/placebo (my dog isn't a wild animal... dogs haven't been for thousands of years). I am doing it because A. I feel that different foods contain different amount of nutrients and where one brand may be lacking, another will fill that void. B. if there was ever a recall, my dog would be able to digest a new food with ease. C. If there was ever an ongoing issue with a kibble that I, as a consumer, wasn't aware of: my dog would be exposed to it in a very small scale way. Therefore not causing permanent damage (in theory).


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## Sheltielover25 (Jan 18, 2011)

46and2 said:


> I am not rotational feeding to fulfill some fantasy/placebo (my dog isn't a wild animal... dogs haven't been for thousands of years). I am doing it because A. I feel that different foods contain different amount of nutrients and where one brand may be lacking, another will fill that void. B. if there was ever a recall, my dog would be able to digest a new food with ease. C. If there was ever an ongoing issue with a kibble that I, as a consumer, wasn't aware of: my dog would be exposed to it in a very small scale way. Therefore not causing permanent damage (in theory).


Tell me exactly what has changed about a dog's digestive tract overtime? Because while I agree they're not wild, I haven't found anything that's evolved in that area to show they don't still require the same diet and to me that's a diet that varies. I can't think of a single living creature that would eat the exact same thing day in and day out... sure, a small number of things like I listed three proteins my kibble-fed animal eats, but never the exact same thing day in and day out.

It's kind of sad that you would have such little trust in companies you're chosing to feed your animal that you need to be ready to switch at any time due to a recall/lack of nutrients/on-going issues. Isn't that alarming?


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## 46and2 (Jan 1, 2013)

Sheltielover25 said:


> Tell me exactly what has changed about a dog's digestive tract overtime? Because while I agree they're not wild, I haven't found anything that's evolved in that area to show they don't still require the same diet.


I'm not being baited into yet another kibble vs raw debate. 
May I ask what animal you feed kibble to?? I'm assuming possibly a cat. An obligate carnivore that should DEFINITELY be fed a pmr diet.


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## Sheltielover25 (Jan 18, 2011)

46and2 said:


> I'm not being baited into yet another kibble vs raw debate.
> May I ask what animal you feed kibble to?? I'm assuming possibly a cat. An obligate carnivore that should DEFINITELY be fed a pmr diet.


I wasn't arguing over raw/cooked, I'm trying to say that an animal such as a dog isn't designed to eat one protein over and over and over again. I'm not out saying they need 10 different proteins, but I think it's fair to say 2-3 would be ideal and definitely more natural.

I actually feed a cat kibble, not a PMR diet. But she eats a very high quality air-dried kibble and mostly canned. Should she eat raw? Yes, but since I've tried for years and she won't, we settle on a company I trust and a food she does well on. Regardless of the point, I don't believe any living creature can thrive from eating the same thing over and over again. Like I mentioned, each animal offers something different and I feel it is important to offer a couple different animals. I don't feed my animal a different food each time, though, because I'm worried the company will have a recall/missing important nutrients/or whatever other reason you mentioned. If I had to worry about things like that, I'd rethink the way I was feeding my animal.

Do you have to feed your animals by the same principles? Uh, no.

To add to this, I actually think DaViking has the most ideal plan if you're feeding a dog and that is sticking to one company you trust and adding in real food. I think it's condsiderably more beneficial to add in real, cooked or raw, food as a topper than it is to switch through kibble that is all more or less the same.


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## 46and2 (Jan 1, 2013)

Sheltielover25 said:


> I wasn't arguing over raw/cooked, I'm trying to say that an animal such as a dog isn't designed to eat one protein over and over and over again. I'm not out saying they need 10 different proteins, but I think it's fair to say 2-3 would be ideal and definitely more natural.
> 
> I actually feed a cat kibble, not a PMR diet. But she eats a very high quality air-dried kibble and mostly canned. Should she eat raw? Yes, but since I've tried for years and she won't, we settle on a company I trust and a food she does well on. Regardless of the point, I don't believe any living creature can thrive from eating the same thing over and over again. Like I mentioned, each animal offers something different and I feel it is important to offer a couple different animals. I don't feed my animal a different food each time, though, because I'm worried the company will have a recall/missing important nutrients/or whatever other reason you mentioned. If I had to worry about things like that, I'd rethink the way I was feeding my animal.
> 
> ...


I don't understand the term "air dried kibble". Do you mean air dried raw? Ziwipeak or something similar?
It would be MUCH healthier to feed your cat canned. If on a predominantly dry diet a cat is chronically dehydrated.
The comment "I don't feed my animal a different food each time, though, because I'm worried the company will have a recall/missing important nutrients/or whatever other reason you mentioned. If I had to worry about things like that, I'd rethink the way I was feeding my animal." is a little off. Do you feed your dog chicken every day? If you did, would you be concerned that it would not be getting the proper nutrients? I don't see how it is any different.


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## 46and2 (Jan 1, 2013)

Sheltielover25 said:


> Tell me exactly what has changed about a dog's digestive tract overtime? Because while I agree they're not wild, I haven't found anything that's evolved in that area to show they don't still require the same diet and to me that's a diet that varies. I can't think of a single living creature that would eat the exact same thing day in and day out... sure, a small number of things like I listed three proteins my kibble-fed animal eats, but never the exact same thing day in and day out.
> 
> It's kind of sad that you would have such little trust in companies you're chosing to feed your animal that you need to be ready to switch at any time due to a recall/lack of nutrients/on-going issues. Isn't that alarming?


I didn't notice the last comment there... I find that when one puts 100% faith in ANYTHING, that is when one becomes complacent. There have been recalled raw meats as well. What then? Maybe the dog wouldn't be affected by the e. coli in the beef (debatable) you just purchased but what about your family (which, IMO, should come before your pets)?


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## naturalfeddogs (Jan 6, 2011)

46and2 said:


> I didn't notice the last comment there... I find that when one puts 100% faith in ANYTHING, that is when one becomes complacent. There have been recalled raw meats as well. What then? Maybe the dog wouldn't be affected by the e. coli in the beef (debatable) you just purchased but what about your family (which, IMO, should come before your pets)?


It's always a risk with raw meats (and kibble). General hand washing, as you normally would preparing food for yourself.

Generally, those meats that do get recalled, the stores take off the shelf so the general public doesn't buy them. As for the dogs, it doesn't matter.


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## Sheltielover25 (Jan 18, 2011)

46and2 said:


> I didn't notice the last comment there... I find that when one puts 100% faith in ANYTHING, that is when one becomes complacent. There have been recalled raw meats as well. What then? Maybe the dog wouldn't be affected by the e. coli in the beef (debatable) you just purchased but what about your family (which, IMO, should come before your pets)?


I'm not sure why you keep going back to raw meat, are you trying to turn this into a raw debate? 

I don't need to worry about missing nutrients or recalls due to mold due to the fact the company that makes my pet's food has 100% of my trust. As far as food that's fresh, I don't buy anything from the stores and all sources are local so I don't have to worry about massive recalls due to the fact I don't purchase items mass produced.

I'm just stating if you're worried about companies doing it wrong, then I wouldn't be able to rest knowing I had such little faith in a company that provides 100% of my animals' nutrition. I don't believe excuses should be made and "things happen." Recalls shouldn't be something that is just a fact of life IMO.

Also my family doesn't come before my pets. My pets are my family. While some may not agree, I don't care. It's my life and I chose how to arrange the ones I love and they're equal. They don't eat anything mom wouldn't eat.


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## 46and2 (Jan 1, 2013)

Sheltielover25 said:


> I'm not sure why you keep going back to raw meat, are you trying to turn this into a raw debate?
> 
> I don't need to worry about missing nutrients or recalls due to mold due to the fact the company that makes my pet's food has 100% of my trust. As far as food that's fresh, I don't buy anything from the stores and all sources are local so I don't have to worry about massive recalls due to the fact I don't purchase items mass produced.
> 
> ...


Well your and my lifestyles obviously differ tremendously. Does momma eat rabbit/cat/horse s**t too as I'm sure little fuzzy wuzzy munchkin would enjoy that as well.
Point is- Its not about lack of trust... it is to avoid a theoretical situation. Just like feeding your dog free range, naturally fed chickens hold the possibility for listeria, salmonella and a whole host of other things that could potentially kill your dog. Not to mention the risk of obstruction, nutritional deficiency, choking and perforation (oh but we don't believe in that because vets are CRAZYYYYY). 
I don't care what you feed. I was just looking for opinions on rotational feeding. You have given yours now move on so that the next person can provide me with one.


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## 46and2 (Jan 1, 2013)

naturalfeddogs said:


> It's always a risk with raw meats (and kibble). General hand washing, as you normally would preparing food for yourself.
> 
> Generally, those meats that do get recalled, the stores take off the shelf so the general public doesn't buy them. As for the dogs, it doesn't matter.


They do not get recalled as quickly as one might think...


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## Sheltielover25 (Jan 18, 2011)

46and2 said:


> Well your and my lifestyles obviously differ tremendously. Does momma eat rabbit/cat/horse s**t too as I'm sure little fuzzy wuzzy munchkin would enjoy that as well.
> Point is- Its not about lack of trust... it is to avoid a theoretical situation. Just like feeding your dog free range, naturally fed chickens hold the possibility for listeria, salmonella and a whole host of other things that could potentially kill your dog. Not to mention the risk of obstruction, nutritional deficiency, choking and perforation (oh but we don't believe in that because vets are CRAZYYYYY).
> I don't care what you feed. I was just looking for opinions on rotational feeding. You have given yours now move on so that the next person can provide me with one.


I believe if you look back you picked apart my response and then followed up asking me questions. So I don't think I'm the one who kept going on and on.

Also, my dogs do enjoy all kinds of feces, but I don't FEED them feces and limit their exposure to said feces as much as possible.


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## 46and2 (Jan 1, 2013)

Sheltielover25 said:


> I believe if you look back you picked apart my response and then followed up asking me questions. So I don't think I'm the one who kept going on and on.
> 
> Also, my dogs do enjoy all kinds of feces, but I don't FEED them feces and limit their exposure to said feces as much as possible.


My point is- dogs are not wolves. Nor are they humans. Some people have a hard time differentiating that (if you refer to yourself as "mommy" that is confirmation).


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## tem_sat (Jun 20, 2010)

46and2 said:


> There have been recalled raw meats as well. What then? Maybe the dog wouldn't be affected by the e. coli in the beef (debatable) you just purchased but what about your family (which, IMO, should come before your pets)?


Where do you think recalled meat goes?


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## 46and2 (Jan 1, 2013)

tem_sat said:


> Where do you think recalled meat goes?


In the garbage. Can your prove otherwise?
If theoretically it went into dog kibble (along with 4-d, road kill, euthanized pets, used car oil and old bike tires)... it would be COOKED.


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## tem_sat (Jun 20, 2010)

46and2 said:


> In the garbage.


Really? Seriously?


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## 46and2 (Jan 1, 2013)

tem_sat said:


> Really? Seriously?


Ok. You tell me where.
Conspiracy theorists *sigh


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## meggels (May 30, 2010)

46and2 said:


> I don't understand the term "air dried kibble". Do you mean air dried raw? Ziwipeak or something similar?
> It would be MUCH healthier to feed your cat canned. If on a predominantly dry diet a cat is chronically dehydrated.
> The comment "I don't feed my animal a different food each time, though, because I'm worried the company will have a recall/missing important nutrients/or whatever other reason you mentioned. If I had to worry about things like that, I'd rethink the way I was feeding my animal." is a little off. Do you feed your dog chicken every day? If you did, would you be concerned that it would not be getting the proper nutrients? I don't see how it is any different.


It's different because you could feed a chicken based kibble daily and still be covering all of the bases in terms of necessary vitamins and minerals, since those are added in by kibble companies. If you just fed your dog a piece of chicken for every meal, yeah, you'd be missing certain nutrients...


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## tem_sat (Jun 20, 2010)

46and2 said:


> Ok. You tell me where.
> Conspiracy theorists *sigh


I asked you. If you don't know, just say so.


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## 46and2 (Jan 1, 2013)

meggels said:


> It's different because you could feed a chicken based kibble daily and still be covering all of the bases in terms of necessary vitamins and minerals, since those are added in by kibble companies. If you just fed your dog a piece of chicken for every meal, yeah, you'd be missing certain nutrients...


The beauty of kibble in all of its "poisonous" simplicity. 
Sorry for being flip. I've just seen wayyyy too much anthropomorphizing for one day and I'm getting so tired.


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## 46and2 (Jan 1, 2013)

tem_sat said:


> I asked you. If you don't know, just say so.


Just texted my buddy who works in the meat industry and he said (where he works) they send it off to an incinerator to be burned. Throwing it in the garbage is a risk he said. My bad.


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## 46and2 (Jan 1, 2013)

DaViking- so basically you are stating that frequent switches are not optimal? Why would you think that? Or are you saying on a case by case basis?
I noticed that she does well on Horizon Legacy but she has larger bowel movements more frequently. Everything is good besides the BM's.... not an ideal choice?
What, in your opinion, would the risks be of a dog developing allergies being on the same food for a prolonged period of time?


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## bett (Mar 15, 2012)

i'm relatively recently using earthborn grain free and after i finish the largest bag they have of the bison (and i believe lamb) i then switch to the largest bag of the fish based they offer.
my toppings vary by dog-vangie and rex get 0% cottage cheese, while jake gets the 0% greek yogurt. on other times, the the two males get some cooked sweet potatoes on top (thin slice).
i've got a couple of issues -vangie has a sensitive gut and rex, has had (yeah, past tense) some liver issues.
i also supplement accordingly and use chinese herbs for the two with issues.


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## monster'sdad (Jul 29, 2012)

Sheltielover25 said:


> The animal I feed kibble in my house eats the same brand but we always cycle through the proteins so each time she gets a new protein -- venison, lamb, rabbit and then some have fish also.
> 
> I have to really trust the company that produces/manufactures the food so I couldn't go in blindy and buy a different bag each time but I do believe there is value in switching up the proteins. I know for a fact each organ offers different things so I know there is value to each protein's organs individually.
> 
> I'm not sure where one gets off saying it's a marketing ploy switching up foods/proteins. No animal in the wild would ever eat the same protein over and over again so it seems silly to think we should stray from that. The company I use doesn't really advertise so we can't even apply that to my animal's food. Before settling on the food we feed now, I did buy a different brand each time. I've seen recalls from say, forgetting to add taurine to cat food, so if my cat ate that food solely she would have been in big trouble. Sure they might not happen frequently, but the fact they happen is enough for me to rotate unless I fully trust the company I'm purchasing the food from.


Animals in the wild would be lucky to get a complete meal every day. That is something we humans have done to benefit the animals in our care. Anyone that has spent time in the outdoors like I have does not romance about the challenges wild animals face every day to survive. Only on the internet do people falsely perpetuate this fantasy about our domesticate pets being wild animals. 

The irony is that many of these people treat their animals like babies, allow them to sleep in bed with them, dress them up for Halloween, baby talk to them, but continue to say they are really wild animals underneath. The mere thought of kenneling a dog outside in winter probably would give them fits. 

You could make a lot of friends in Yellowstone or the Upper Midwest this time of year with a bag of Ole Roy, just remember that. You could also get shot in the back by the ranchers, because someone supporting a pack of wolves with Pro Plan will cause much healthier wolves and much lower litter mortality rates.

As for the statement that wild canines weren't designed to eat the same protein, there is no basis in science for that statement. Dogs require 10 amino acids and they will get them anyway they see fit. It has nothing to do with "design" they are programed to survive, and that means in Yellowstone in January you eat whatever you can.

I wish people would stop selectively having little cuddy babies while walking through Petco for the Christmas picture and ravenous carnivores when its fashionable on the internet or in a dog park.

If you really think your "baby" is a wolf then allow it to have untreated parasites all year round and eat maggot infested food. And the next time your dog gets into a fight with another dog, let the fight go till death to see which dog nature has selected for the gene pool. If you really believe your dog is a wolf, dig a nice big hole in the backyard and let it sleep in there and convince your friends to do the same. Then come talk to me.

Why worry about human grade foods if you truely believe your dog is wolf? Do wolves care?

Oh, one more thing, don't neuter your dog. If your dog really is a wolf, then don't neuter them. I have never seen a spayed or castrated wolf.


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## Roo (Oct 17, 2010)

> You could make a lot of friends in Yellowstone or the Upper Midwest this time of year with a bag of Ole Roy, just remember that. You could also get shot in the back by the ranchers, because someone supporting a pack of wolves with Pro Plan will cause much healthier wolves and much lower litter mortality rates.


"Healthier" just from the standpoint of being fed vs not being fed opportunity, not necessarily from a nutritional nutrient standpoint.



> As for the statement that wild canines weren't designed to eat the same protein, there is no basis in science for that statement. Dogs require 10 amino acids and they will get them anyway they see fit. It has nothing to do with "design" they are programed to survive, and that means in Yellowstone in January you eat whatever you can.


Her above quote didn't mention anything about design, it just merely stated that wolves in the wild wouldn't eat the same animal over and over again, which I see as being reasonably true to say, I'm not sure on the odds that a wolf hunts and kills only the same single prey over and over again from an opportunity standpoint.



> I wish people would stop selectively having little cuddy babies while walking through Petco for the Christmas picture and ravenous carnivores when its fashionable on the internet or in a dog park.
> 
> If you really think your "baby" is a wolf then allow it to have untreated parasites all year round and eat maggot infested food. And the next time your dog gets into a fight with another dog, let the fight go till death to see which dog nature has selected for the gene pool. If you really believe your dog is a wolf, dig a nice big hole in the backyard and let it sleep in there and convince your friends to do the same. Then come talk to me.
> 
> Why worry about human grade foods if you truely believe your dog is wolf? Do wolves care?


From a nutritional scientific standpoint (as far as I'm aware) there is no known requirement for carbohydrates, or other plant matter for dogs, so I don't see the issue with someone wanting to follow a diet for their dog that reflects this. If *some who feed kibble, do so with the thought that one of the benefits is to be able to provide better than what they would get in the wild, why wouldn't the same thoughts be acceptable for those who choose a different diet? If you can provide more opportunities for your dogs, regardless of the format of the diet you personally feel is best to feed (kibble, canned, or homemade cooked/raw etc.) wouldn't you?


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## monster'sdad (Jul 29, 2012)

Roo said:


> "Healthier" just from the standpoint of being fed vs not being fed opportunity, not necessarily from a nutritional nutrient standpoint.
> 
> 
> Her above quote didn't mention anything about design, it just merely stated that wolves in the wild wouldn't eat the same animal over and over again, which I see as being reasonably true to say, I'm not sure on the odds that a wolf hunts and kills only the same single prey over and over again from an opportunity standpoint.
> ...



Your statement about carbohydrates is based on a very narrow study at U of Penn that is constantly taken out of context. That study never suggested feeding 100% protein and fat to satisfy a dog's calorie requirement. All it did was show protein could be used as energy and that is all. If you read the whole study you will see. The gentleman that did the study, Dr. Kronfeld, was also instrumental in launching Annamaet, so there is your proof the statement is taken out of context.

If you wanna go down that road, there is also no known scientific data that dogs needs a diet much more than 26% protein for muscle repair.

If you have ever worked with dogs, it becomes obvious that when they utilize protein for energy they get hot. Protein requires several steps to become energy and those steps create heat and many of the calories are lost in the process, some say as high as 30%. Also, when dogs don't have carbohydrates their blood sugar levels are unstable, leading to hypoglycemia which can be life threatening.

Wolves probably don't eat the same thing over and over again for one good reason, they don't have the opportunity to. They would if they had the opportunity to. If enough sources of food were available at one given time, they would pick the one which has the lowest risk to them and expended the least amount of energy to acquire. That is the decision making process.

The evolution theory is faulty because wolves in captivity largely eat dry dog food and they live much longer and have fewer nutritional problems. If you put a feed bucket full of Pro Plan in Yellowstone, they would easily realize it was an easy source of food that kept them healthy. They would realize it was safe to eat, no risk of being kicked in the head by an Elk, and they would use virtually no calories acquiring the food. In addition, mother wolves would learn they don't have to leave their pups too long to get food. They would also suffer virtually no Milk Fever.


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## kathylcsw (Jul 31, 2011)

You know I read these threads and just shake my head. Why does anyone care enough to get angry about what anyone else feeds their dogs?? I feed raw but I am not losing sleep because people feed kibble. I just don't get what causes all this angst. Simply feed YOUR dog as YOU see fit and don't get your panties in a wad because other people have different ideas. No one is changing their minds or feeding habits based on arrogant, angry posts.


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## meggels (May 30, 2010)

46and2 said:


> The beauty of kibble in all of its "poisonous" simplicity.
> Sorry for being flip. I've just seen wayyyy too much anthropomorphizing for one day and I'm getting so tired.


I'm not trying to be argumentative, I was merely just stating the difference lol.

I sit on both sides of the fence so to speak. I feed kibble to one dog, and premade raw to another


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## DaViking (Sep 27, 2011)

Roo said:


> If you can provide more opportunities for your dogs, regardless of the format of the diet you personally feel is best to feed (kibble, canned, or homemade cooked/raw etc.) wouldn't you?


+100000000


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## bett (Mar 15, 2012)

tem_sat said:


> Where do you think recalled meat goes?


where are you suggesting it goes? into dog food?

my husband is a butcher, in a prime shop, (i know, different than waldbaums) and if anything was every recalled (chickens?) it goes back or in the dump. not even in the fat pail.


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## bett (Mar 15, 2012)

DaViking said:


> +100000000


thanks


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## Herzo (Feb 5, 2011)

meggels 49and2 looks to be gone. I know this is getting old isn't it. Sheltielover was attacked for no good reason other than a vendetta, she was not trying to start a debate. Or at least that's how I read this.

You know monstersdad I think that would be a good study.I think they should feed the wolves and see if it will stop them killing livestock and all the Elk calves. I would love to see that done. However I think it would still happen, I don't think they would learn at all. Just my thoughts.


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## monster'sdad (Jul 29, 2012)

bett said:


> where are you suggesting it goes? into dog food?
> 
> my husband is a butcher, in a prime shop, (i know, different than waldbaums) and if anything was every recalled (chickens?) it goes back or in the dump. not even in the fat pail.


It can be used for dog food in some plants. There is nothing in the law that prevents meat that is not suitable for human consumption to be used for dog food. What I don't know is if recalled meat has to be "denatured" so it doesn't go back in the human supply chain. This is usually accomplished with an approved dye, then the meat is re-dyed so it is a natural color again.

EU Cert plants won't use this grade of meat product. Those rules aren't perfect but its better than the alternative.

I haven't see any meat recalls that would make the meat unsuitable for dogs. Hopefully it does get used.


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## Sheltielover25 (Jan 18, 2011)

monster'sdad said:


> Animals in the wild would be lucky to get a complete meal every day. That is something we humans have done to benefit the animals in our care. Anyone that has spent time in the outdoors like I have does not romance about the challenges wild animals face every day to survive. Only on the internet do people falsely perpetuate this fantasy about our domesticate pets being wild animals.
> 
> The irony is that many of these people treat their animals like babies, allow them to sleep in bed with them, dress them up for Halloween, baby talk to them, but continue to say they are really wild animals underneath. The mere thought of kenneling a dog outside in winter probably would give them fits.
> 
> ...


First off, I've never said they were wild animals. I simply said nothing about their digestive track has changed in the process of domestication. I don't understand how people like you think because a dog isn't wild anymore somehow their dietary needs are different. 

Also, the sanctuary I donate my money to certainly does not feed their wolves kibble. So why you might know of some, I know of some that do just the opposite and guess what? They're wolves live just as long so I'm not sure your theory proves much other than those wolves eating kibble will probably have seriously rotten teeth. 

I don't think my dog is a wolf but I do think their digestive tract and all other signs point to them needing to be fed like one. I feed human-grade meat because it's better quality and since their diet is completely in my hands, you bet your butt they're going to get the best quality. I also buy the best quality because I believe in voting with my pocket book and only support ethical farmers who do the right thing and treat animals as they should be treated... you know, access to daylight and not pumped full of growth promoters. I don't believe in forcing animals to grow at a faster rate soley to benefit the farmer. I believe in respect for animals, all animals, and don't support any cruelty. 

And you are talking out your ass again about a wolf being healthier on Proplan. This is your opinion, and nothing factual, so stop acting like it is. You are allowed to believe what you want, but it in no way makes it correct.


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## monster'sdad (Jul 29, 2012)

Herzo said:


> meggels 49and2 looks to be gone. I know this is getting old isn't it. Sheltielover was attacked for no good reason other than a vendetta, she was not trying to start a debate. Or at least that's how I read this.
> 
> You know monstersdad I think that would be a good study.I think they should feed the wolves and see if it will stop them killing livestock and all the Elk calves. I would love to see that done. However I think it would still happen, I don't think they would learn at all. Just my thoughts.


Wolves readily eat kibble in captivity and I bet they would in the wild. Wolves die of old age and old age diseases in capitivity rather than infectious disease, parasites, fighting and starvation in the wild.

Coyotes eat chicken feed, hog feed, sweet feed and anything else they come across. 

I am not suggesting people feed wolves in the wild. My point is that they would and the population would benefit, especially in terms of reproductive capacity. I was merely saying that wild animals don't have it so good and that their food choices are generally the easy ones when that opportunity presents itself. Rotting road kill is a good example.


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## Sheltielover25 (Jan 18, 2011)

monster'sdad said:


> Wolves readily eat kibble in captivity and I bet they would in the wild. Wolves die of old age and old age diseases in capitivity rather than infectious disease, parasites, fighting and starvation in the wild.
> 
> Coyotes eat chicken feed, hog feed, sweet feed and anything else they come across.
> 
> I am not suggesting people feed wolves in the wild. My point is that they would and the population would benefit, especially in terms of reproductive capacity. I was merely saying that wild animals don't have it so good and that their food choices are generally the easy ones when that opportunity presents itself. Rotting road kill is a good example.


Life isn't all about what one would prefer to eat. It's about eating foods that allow you to thrive the most. Sure, I'd prefer a chocolate donut over a plate of beets any day, but does that mean it's more beneficial? Uh, no.

I don't understand the reasoning of it would eat it, so let's feed it. Their teeth would rot for sure so that's enough for me to know it's not optimal.

Roting roadkill is still meat, and much healthier than kibble... Considering the older and higher up the wolf is in the wild, the less fruits they have, if any in their digestive track, show what is superior and what is low ranking in their diet. With that, I believe wholeheartedly a dog can thrive on cooked foods but that doesn't mean you don't have to take quality of those foods into consideration.


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## meggels (May 30, 2010)

I'm not trying to be a snot here, but aren't you two (Monster's Dad and Sheltielover) sick of arguing with each other on almost all the threads you both visit??? I mean I would honestly be EXHAUSTED at this point. It honestly seems like you guys just look to get into bickering matches with one another and it seems like it's overwhelming the threads of DFC. You two obviously have VERY different view points...can't you just agree to disagree without constantly finding something wrong with what the other one has said? 

And I'm not taking a side and saying either one of you is wrong, because I don't have an opinion on that. I'm just saying this arguing lately is getting old


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## Herzo (Feb 5, 2011)

monster'sdad said:


> Wolves readily eat kibble in captivity and I bet they would in the wild. Wolves die of old age and old age diseases in capitivity rather than infectious disease, parasites, fighting and starvation in the wild.
> 
> Coyotes eat chicken feed, hog feed, sweet feed and anything else they come across.
> 
> I am not suggesting people feed wolves in the wild. My point is that they would and the population would benefit, especially in terms of reproductive capacity. I was merely saying that wild animals don't have it so good and that their food choices are generally the easy ones when that opportunity presents itself. Rotting road kill is a good example.


I was not saying they wouldn't eat it, I was agreeing with you. I really would like to see a study, really, so they wouldn't kill everything. But I'm guessing they still would, that's all I was saying. 

I know I high jacked the thread and I'm sorry, but I was not arguing with you......really I wasn't 

And like meggels said you both have good points so agree to disagree.

Oh and I had a question, sorry still high jacking. I think you said they would not have milk fever. Now why is that? I really am just asking because I have no idea. Do female dogs not get it if they are on kibble and why would that be?


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## Javadoo (May 23, 2011)

monster'sdad said:


> I remember one poster said she fed one food in the morning and one food at night.


Yes Hershey...that would be me.
I am a rotational feeder.
I have anywhere from 8-11 different foods that I rotate.
I rotate foods daily-one type of food in the morning, a different type of food at night.
My girls do not get the same protein in back to back meals.

And I really don't give a crap what you think of it.


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## Unosmom (May 3, 2009)

I usually rotate every 30 lb bag between several (mostly grain free) brands.


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## Losech (Jul 10, 2012)

I rotate formulas/brands every bag. Used to be mainly Taste of the Wild for the Girls but money is really tight so now it's Diamond Naturals (NOT happy about that but I do not pay their feed bill so the decision is not mine). Conker tends to get higher-quality stuff since I am the one who pays for his food so I can pick my price limit. Sometimes I will throw in a raw or homecooked meal, or topper, or snack, etc. Sometimes they get raw for a week straight, or mixed in with their kibble, or in the evening after a hike. I feed whatever type of food I feel like, but it's not in any particular order.


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## Jacksons Mom (Jun 13, 2010)

I rotate somewhat. I prefer to stay within one brand if possible, but will sometimes have 2. My main reason for doing is Jackson gets very bored very easily. When I switch it up occasionally, he's like 'oh!' and has an excitement to eat again. I don't find anything wrong with that! I don't really think there's any nutritional advantage to doing this. It's plainly just to keep him excited about eating. I love to see him enjoying his food.


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## monster'sdad (Jul 29, 2012)

I rotate water. Tap, mineral, bottled, sparkling, well, distilled. The Ph and mineral content can vary from source to source so better safe than sorry.

:tongue:


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## InkedMarie (Sep 9, 2011)

Boone tends to end up on the same foods due to allergies. Ginger is the one I can rotate with. We have a new arrival, coming this Saturday, while she may be able to rotate, it'll probably have to be soft foods as she had 15 teeth extracted today


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## doggiedad (Jan 23, 2011)

i'll buy a 40 lb of kibble. before that bag is finished i'll several
5lb bags of a different brand and flavor. in the am it one brand
and in the pm it's another brand. sometimes i'll go days with one brand.
i use can food as one of my toppings. sometimes i'll have 7 different
brands on hand. i also top my dogs kibble with a variety of things.
sometimes i'll give him his kibble plan (water only) just to make sure
he'll eat it that way just in case i don't have any toppings. i'll top his kibble
with beef, chicken, pork, fish, canned fish (in water, no salt added), organic
yogurt, salmon oil (human grade), certain fruit, etc. i don't have a schedule
for mixing and matching his kibble.


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## Sheltielover25 (Jan 18, 2011)

InkedMarie said:


> Boone tends to end up on the same foods due to allergies. Ginger is the one I can rotate with. We have a new arrival, coming this Saturday, while she may be able to rotate, it'll probably have to be soft foods as she had 15 teeth extracted today


aww is this the elderly sheltie? How sweet of you to take in an older one. I fostered an old boy for a while and he didn't have many teeth but we ate raw with no problem! 15, though, is a lot to lose, I'd think! Bless her and you for taking her in!


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## doggiedad (Jan 23, 2011)

did you eat raw because your dog had no teeth?



Sheltielover25 said:


> aww is this the elderly sheltie? How sweet of you to take in an older one.
> 
> >>>> I fostered an old boy for a while and he didn't have many teeth but we ate raw with no problem! <<<<<
> 
> 15, though, is a lot to lose, I'd think! Bless her and you for taking her in!


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## Sheltielover25 (Jan 18, 2011)

doggiedad said:


> did you eat raw because your dog had no teeth?


LOL HE had no problem... hahahaha.


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## Herzo (Feb 5, 2011)

monster'sdad said:


> I rotate water. Tap, mineral, bottled, sparkling, well, distilled. The Ph and mineral content can vary from source to source so better safe than sorry.
> 
> :tongue:


I like this you may be on to something here.


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## InkedMarie (Sep 9, 2011)

Sheltielover25 said:


> aww is this the elderly sheltie? How sweet of you to take in an older one. I fostered an old boy for a while and he didn't have many teeth but we ate raw with no problem! 15, though, is a lot to lose, I'd think! Bless her and you for taking her in!


Yes, this is her. She is our third senior adoption; second senior sheltie (other one was 11). 
We


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