# What do you look for in a breeder?



## CorgiPaws (Mar 31, 2009)

This might take a little while to respond, but I would appreciate replies. I'm jus curious what people out there are really looking for when looking at breeders. I know what I look for, and what I feel is important, and the things that I have on my priority list, but I am interested to see what the popular opinions are. 


_Put these in order of importance:

1. Showing their breeding dogs in big time dog shows.
2. Genetic Health Testing of both parents.
3. Price of the puppies.
4. Condition of the property puppies are kept on.
5. AKC Registration.

and explain why they are in that order. _

I also am curious of a few things.

1. What is an acceptable amount to charge for a pet puppy? 

2. Do you visit a breeder before purchasing a pup? Also, if a breeder did not alow people to come to their home, would that be a deal breaker?

3. Is a breeder unethical if he or she is making profit?

4. How important is it for a breeder to compete in conformation shows with his or her dogs? Why?

5. Do you consider a breeder unethical if he or she has more than one litter per year?

6. What are some questions you ask breeders, and what do you expect to hear back?

7. If you are able to visit the property of the breeder, what are you looking for, exactly?

8. What are your thoughts on shipping puppies via. airplane to their forever homes?

9. What age is appropriate to send a puppy to his or her new home?


*ETA: I know this can be a controversial topic, please keep it friendly.*


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## CorgiPaws (Mar 31, 2009)

CorgiPaws said:


> _Put these in order of importance:
> 
> 1. Showing their breeding dogs in big time dog shows.
> 2. Genetic Health Testing of both parents.
> ...


*1. Genetic health testing of both parents*--_Genetic health testing is my top priority, because while it is not a guarantee that the puppies will be healthy and fre of genetic health issues, I feel like by only breeding dogs testing clear of issues, you're doing all you can to produce HEALTHY puppies. _

*2. Condition of the property puppies are kept on*.---_The conditions in which the puppies are kept, to me, says a lot about a breeder's devotion to his or her dogs. Very important. If they're not cleaning the pup's area, what other corners might they be cutting?_

*3. Price of the puppies*--_Price is relatively unimportant, but obviously one must stay within their means. At the same time, it can show the true motivation of the breeder. It would also raise a red flag to me if a breeder was claiming to do the geetic testing, yet able to turn puppies out for extremely low prices. To me, the price indicates a whole lot more than a dollar amount. _

*4. AKC registration.-- *_My beagle came from a pet shop before we knew better. He has full AKC registration. my mother in law's westie is from a pet store, and he has full AKC registration. My former coworkers pug came from a BYB and had a nose so pushed in he could not breathe and was put to sleep before the age of one. He had AKC registration. It really just does not mean a darn thing. They are entirely useless papers that tell you absolutely nothing about the conformation or health of the dog. A pedigree is useful, to show that there has been no inbreeding, but there are means of getting that from a good breeder without going through the AKC. In fact, I think that quite a few terrible BYBs use these papers to appeal to a less educated crowd because their puppies are "papered" and to undereducated buyers, that sounds good.AKC registration is almost useless, in my opinion... though for a reason I can't quite put my finger on, breeders breeding unregistered dogs just seem shady right off the bat to me. _

*5. Showing their breeding dogs in big time dog shows.--- *_Conformation shows are an absolute joke to me. They are made to select the best breeding stock of that breed, yet they have nothing to do with health and longevity. Also, it's not necessarily the best specimen of the breed picked, it's the judges favorites, and the most popular handlers generally win. Go figure. 
A breeder should know his or her breed's standard well enough to call the shots with their dogs on if they are up to par or not. _
To me, the first two are the only ones of real importence here, and the rest I just kind of threw on there because none are too important to me. 






CorgiPaws said:


> 1. What is an acceptable amount to charge for a pet puppy?


To me, this varies by breed. I would pay a lot more for a Boxer than a Corgi because of the health testing involved with each breed. 
I would probaly pay up to $1200 for a Boxer, and maybe up to $800 for a Corgi. How "rare" a breed is, to me, should have NO effect on the price of puppies. Rare dogs are not more expensive than common breeds to breed and whelp, unless the particular breed requires extensive health testing. (most rare breeds are healthier, and require less) 



CorgiPaws said:


> 2. Do you visit a breeder before purchasing a pup? Also, if a breeder did not alow people to come to their home, would that be a deal breaker?


Generally, yes, I believe it's important. I did not visit Annie's breeder, because she doesn't allow strangers at her house for a few reasons that I do understand. I have become friends with her since getting Annie, and have since been to her house, and she had absolutely nothing to hide. I do think her not allowing people to come see her place and puppies in person looks terrible. 
Usually it is a deal breaker for me. I feel like when a breeder does not welcome you to come see how they do things, how the pups are cared for, etc. that it looks as though they have something to hide. I think in most cases, this is the truth. 



CorgiPaws said:


> 3. Is a breeder unethical if he or she is making profit?


I do NOT think that breeding with the intent to make a living off of it is ethical, no. BUT, if a breeder has good luck, has a large litter, with no complications, and has not cut corners in regards to health testing, care of the bitch and pups, etc then I don't see anything terrible about he or she making a few hundred bucks off that one litter... after all, they might lose thousands on the next litter. All in all, I don't think good breeders make any money in the long run, and I see nothing wrong with them taking advantage of a no complications litter to help bring in some money when money is generally lost. 



CorgiPaws said:


> 4. How important is it for a breeder to compete in conformation shows with his or her dogs? Why?


Entirely unimportant. 
A breeder should know his or her breed's standard backwards, forwards, and upside down. They should not have to rely on dog shows to tell them their dogs strengths and faults. I think what dog shows have turned into in the last 10 or so years are a bit of a joke, and I will NEVER put one of my dogs in the ring. 




CorgiPaws said:


> 5. Do you consider a breeder unethical if he or she has more than one litter per year?


Not necessarily, within reason. 
I think a breeder who is cutting corners and churning out litter after litter after litter and placing them in whatever homes they can possibly find, then of course they are unethical. I would say any more than three litters a year is really really pushing it, and even that many, the situation would have to be just right. 
I personally think that smaller "hobby" breeders that do health testing, and so carefully place puppies are going to do FAR more good on the war against true BYBs and puppy mills than show breeders ever will. Someone looking at a $500 puppy whose parents have had no health testing are not going to consider a $1500 puppy from a show breeder, but they MIGHT consider an $800 puppy from health tested parents, and that, IMO is a big step in the right direction. 



CorgiPaws said:


> 6. What are some questions you ask breeders, and what do you expect to hear back?


I ask about how the pups are raised form 0-8 weeks... and I expect them to be inside the house. I ask about their diet, and of course want to hear something decent. 
A lot of me picking a breeder isn't necessarily rapid fire questions, but moreso just talking to them, getting to know their views on breedng and pet care in general, and moving forward from there. 



CorgiPaws said:


> 7. If you are able to visit the property of the breeder, what are you looking for, exactly?


I am looking for how many adults they have. I don't want to see rows of kennels full of in tact dogs and bitches. I want to see dogs being kept inside the home, I want to see puppies taken care of inside, where they can get used to common household noises and happenings. I want to see the area of the puppies as clean as it can be. I want to see clean puppies. I don't care if the rest of the house is an absolute wreck, if the room the puppies are in is spotless, that's good enough for me. I want to see organization. I want to see the breeder interact positively with her dogs. 



CorgiPaws said:


> 8. What are your thoughts on shipping puppies via. airplane to their forever homes?


I don't think it's ideal, but I'm not against it, either. 
In fact, Grissom was flown in to me, and he didn't seem traumatized or terrified to me at all. I think that if a good home is waiting, then a couple hours in air isn't going to have lasting effects. Again, not ideal, I'd prefer to see personal pickup at the breeder's... but it's not out of the question to me, either. 



CorgiPaws said:


> 9. What age is appropriate to send a puppy to his or her new home?


No earlier than 8 weeks. I feel like smaller breeds really benefit from more time with their littermates and mother, and for those, 10 weeks is more ideal.


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## xxshaelxx (Mar 8, 2010)

Genetic Health Testing of both parents - I want to know that my dogs are going to be the least likely to get genetic health disorders.

AKC Registration - I put this as my second highest priority, because if the breeder does not do AKC Registration, then I know they're backyard breeders or an accidental breeder.

Showing their breeding dogs - I definitely want to know that my dogs are going to be a perfect representation of their breed. Which Ryou isn't, and I'm KIND of disappointed by that, even though I love him to death and could never give him up for my life.

Condition of the property puppies are on - Even breeders who show their dogs and have AKC registration could not always have the best of conditions raising their puppies.

Price - Um...yeah...well, I don't want to pay outrageously, but I'd say that it's the least important thing, even if it's the first thing I look at. XD




1. What is an acceptable amount to charge for a pet puppy? Well, it all depends on the quality of the breeder, really. I mean, if I got a puppy from the BIS of the Westminster Kennel Club, I think I'll be paying a pretty penny, even for a pet dog. But anyways, anywhere between $800-1,200, I would consider acceptable, as long as you know EXACTLY what you're getting.

2. Do you visit a breeder before purchasing a pup? Also, if a breeder did not alow people to come to their home, would that be a deal breaker? I didn't, but I would now if I ever do it again. And yes, that would be a total deal breaker, because I would want to know what kind of deal they're running, that they're not posing as different people with different litters when they're really running a puppy mill.

3. Is a breeder unethical if he or she is making profit? I wouldn't say that, but I would say they are not ethical if they are breeding FOR a profit.

4. How important is it for a breeder to compete in conformation shows with his or her dogs? Why? I think it's very important. Otherwise, how is anyone going to know that these dogs are breeding quality and are going to better the breed? I mean, Amaya would never win in a show ring, so I'd never want to breed her and downgrade the quality of Siberian Huskies.

5. Do you consider a breeder unethical if he or she has more than one litter per year? No, not really, not unless they're breeding their dogs back to back, like "my" breeder. -.-

6. What are some questions you ask breeders, and what do you expect to hear back? "Do you show your dogs?" "Yes." "Have you ever won anything personally?" "Yes." "Do you health test your dogs?" "Yes." "Ever had anything come back positive for genetic disorders?" "No." "Do you socialize your dogs?" "Yes." "Do you keep puppies for at least eight weeks, if not longer?" "I like to keep them until they are about ten to twelve weeks old to get them better socialization with their littermates and mama."

7. If you are able to visit the property of the breeder, what are you looking for, exactly? I would be looking for the dogs to be a part of the breeder's family, and not just stuck in a kennel all the time. I would want to see the dogs on a better diet than Iams, and that everything is clean and well kept up where the dogs are being kept.

8. What are your thoughts on shipping puppies via. airplane to their forever homes? I'm not against it, but I would never prefer it over a short drive. Even longer drives are harsh on the puppy, unless your puppy is Ryou. haha.

9. What age is appropriate to send a puppy to his or her new home? I took mine home at eight weeks old, but after further research, I found that ten to twelve weeks old is better.​


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## DaneMama (Jun 27, 2008)

I think that everyone out there has a different opinion on what constitutes a BYB or a bad breeder, I know that mine is different than most. Overall, there is a general understanding on what a true BYB is: Someone who breeds for the primary reason of making a profit. These people generally do not health test, temperament test, conformation test (show), agility/working titles, etc with their dogs. They have the dogs and treat them like a business and property. This is what I consider a backyard breeder.

Health testing and temperament testing is at the top of my list. You can have a beautiful dog that has horrible genetics and is plagued with disease because of it. That is not the kind of dog that I want. Health testing to me includes: all the major joints (hips and elbows), heart, eyes, AND bloodwork (repeated annual/semiannual bloodwork that shows constant excellent internal function). I think that bloodwork is overlooked way too much by a lot of breeders. Its great that people take into consideration hips so much, but what if a dog has textbook perfect hips but then gets thyroid disease or early liver failure due to a genetic tie to the parents? A dog must pass a physical examination as well as an internal examination (bloodwork) for it to be considered healthy to me. With all that being said, health testing can be taken to the extreme and a breeder can still end up with puppies that develop issues. Its a part of life. BUT as breeders I expect them to produce the best, healthiest dogs possible and to take all the precautionary measures to do so.

Temperament and disposition comes next. Again, you can have a gorgeous dog that has serious mental instability of any kind. That is not the kind of dog I want. I expect breeders to have the highest level of training with their dogs, not necessarily agility or field trained/titled but I want to see a breeder be able to speak with their dog and that dog react without hesitation. I expect their dogs to be a part of their family and not spend their lives in a kennel or to be treated like property. I wholeheartedly believe in both nature and nurture when it comes to a dog's personality. Dogs are social animals and must be raised that way and treated as such. Both parents should be VERY well socialized to all kinds of situations, if both parents are used as therapy dogs that would be ideal to me. The personality that I want is the typical dane personality, we all know what that is!

Conformation and looks. We all have to admit that we love the way danes look, its what makes them unique just like any other breed. To me, conformation to the standard is important. I want my danes to look like the ideal dane, physically. I do not show and have no interest in it for many good reasons that are for another time (I could write a novel on why I don't like dog showing), and I do NOT expect a potential breeder to show their dogs. I DO know the standard and how to pin point the faults on a dog so I DO expect the breeder to be able to do the same. On that same note, the breed standard and conformation to me is all about body shape, size and overall look but color is another issue. If a breeder is truly a good one, they know their dogs genetics inside and out and that includes coat color and they should know what not to breed so they don't end up with coat color associated problems (deaf/blind). I personally wont label a breeder that breeds outside the color families as a BYB, IF and only IF they can show a pedigree and tell me about their lines AND if their dogs fit the physical conformation of what a dane should look like.

Reputable breeders also need to give back to the dane community (or any non profit animal rescue organization) and work directly with rescue organizations. For example, a donation should be made to their local/associated rescue with every puppy contract. Not only that, but also do something active in those groups with volunteer work. As well as an amount given back to the adoptive family when they get their puppy spayed or neutered, considering the breeder should take responsibility of EVERY puppy they bring into the world.

Support and relationship with a breeder is also one of the biggest things I look for. They should be there NO MATTER WHAT. They should be your biggest resource for information and guidance. They should be the first person you are able to call with a question.


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## DaneMama (Jun 27, 2008)

CorgiPaws said:


> 1. Showing their breeding dogs in big time dog shows.
> 2. Genetic Health Testing of both parents.
> 3. Price of the puppies.
> 4. Condition of the property puppies are kept on.
> ...


1. Genetic/health testing
2. Condition of the property and dogs
3. Price of puppy-this tells me what the possible motivation of the breeder happens to be.

The other things don't mean much to me, for many reasons which I could write a novel on. AKC papers don't guarantee a quality puppy one bit. The only papers that matter to me is the pedigree which actually DOES tell me
things about the lineage of the dog.



> 1. What is an acceptable amount to charge for a pet puppy?


Depends on the breed. Large or giant breed dogs I think can go for more than smaller breeds just because they are more expensive and harder to breed, typically. I sold Bailey's puppies for $400-$800 depending on color, which is one of the ways that Danes are sold.



> 2. Do you visit a breeder before purchasing a pup? Also, if a breeder did not alow people to come to their home, would that be a deal breaker?


Absolutely. We drove across state lines to go get Akasha, twice. And it would be a deal breaker of they didn't allow visits. That tells me there is something they have to hide. I can understand if they don't allow other dogs to come because they have the responsibility to keep their breeding dogs and their puppies healthy.



> 3. Is a breeder unethical if he or she is making profit?


Depends on what kind of profit and how many dogs they have. I think I ended up with a $300 profit from Bailey's litter, and considering all the time and effort I put in...I don't feel like a made a profit one bit. Which is 100% fine with me, that is not what I was looking for.

There's a "breeder" here in Colorado that has 20 breeding pairs and they sell their breeding stock off once they surpass their prime. They are in it for nothing but profit.



> 4. How important is it for a breeder to compete in conformation shows with his or her dogs? Why?


Not important to me. I feel that a breeder should know their breed well enough to be able to recognize faults and pick out ideal specimens of the breed. Not to mention dog shows are so flawed and political that to me they do a disservice to the breed more than anything.

What I do think is a reqirement is seeing the breeder work directly with their dogs, well trained and socialized.



> 5. Do you consider a breeder unethical if he or she has more than one litter per year?


Again, depends on how many dogs they have. I think it's too much for any female dog to have more than one litter every other year. There is no reason to breed a dog every year. I think 2-3 litters is the max number for any dog that is responsible and healthy.



> 6. What are some questions you ask breeders, and what do you expect to hear back?


There are a lot of questions that should be asked. If you don't have many...you need to do some more research on what to ask. ANY question should be answered to the fullest extent. At no point should you feel uneasy about anything. A breeder should put you at ease, not make you even more nervous about the breed. 



> 7. If you are able to visit the property of the breeder, what are you looking for, exactly?


Visiting the location should be a requirement. But particularly I want to see the dogs and puppies as active members of the household. I prefer to see all dogs raised inside.



> 8. What are your thoughts on shipping puppies via. airplane to their forever homes?


Puppies are shipped ONLY when the adopting family has come to visit first hand. Every adopting family should have at least three references, which is a big deal when dealing with out of state families because it is the one way you can make sure they are ideal homes. I only shipped one of bailey's puppies, they came to visit her very early on and then came back out to bring her home.



> 9. What age is appropriate to send a puppy to his or her new home?


No earlier than 8 weeks, 9-12 weeks is preferable. The more time these puppies have with mama the better start to life they will have.


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## luvMyBRT (Mar 8, 2010)

Okay, I really want to answer this question, but could someone tell me how to do the multiple quotes in my reply? The way Natalie did with each individual question. I'm a computer dork and haven't figured it out yet....LOL. Don't laugh at me! :redface:


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## DaneMama (Jun 27, 2008)

In the text box when replying...there is a little icon the furthest on the right. Highlight the text that you want to wrap quotes around and hit that button.


OR 

You can just type [ QUOTE ] at the beginning of the text and [ /QUOTE ] at the end.


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## CorgiPaws (Mar 31, 2009)

saraj2878 said:


> Okay, I really want to answer this question, but could someone tell me how to do the multiple quotes in my reply? The way Natalie did with each individual question. I'm a computer dork and haven't figured it out yet....LOL. Don't laugh at me! :redface:


I just do a normal quote, and copy the text, so I can paste the quote again in my reply and leave only the text that I want in that particular quote, deleting the rest.


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## luvMyBRT (Mar 8, 2010)

CorgiPaws said:


> _Put these in order of importance:
> 
> 1. Showing their breeding dogs in big time dog shows.
> 2. Genetic Health Testing of both parents.
> ...


1. Genetic Testing of both parents- This BY FAR is the most important thing to me. I even look to see if grandparents have been tested as well.
2. Condition of Property- How the dogs and puppies live and are kept shows the kind of breeder they are, IMO. If you are an ethical and responsible breeder your property will be kept clean. Dogs and puppies are part of the family and kept inside.
3. Price- Not all that important. With all the work that goes into properly breeding dogs I don't think that an ethical breeder looks to make money.
4. Shows- Not all that important. However, it is kinda fun to know that our puppies parents and grandparents are champions, with a grandparent taking best of breed at Westminester. Nothing more than bragging rights, really.
5. AKC- What is it??? Like a piece of paper? LOL. Not important.



> 1. What is an acceptable amount to charge for a pet puppy?


I think it really depends on the breed. I would tend to think that a rare breed would cost more. 



> 2. Do you visit a breeder before purchasing a pup? Also, if a breeder did not alow people to come to their home, would that be a deal breaker?


YES! If the breeder did not let me visit, I would not purchase a puppy from them. It would make me wonder what they are hiding.



> 3. Is a breeder unethical if he or she is making profit?


I don't think that an ethical breeder really makes that much profit. It they do have a litter or two where they do make a profit, then it's fine with me. It's gotta be hard work!




> 4. How important is it for a breeder to compete in conformation shows with his or her dogs? Why?


I don't think that it's all that important, but it does show some form of dedication to their breed. I feel that if a dog can win multiple championships it does say something about the dog and the breeder.



> 5. Do you consider a breeder unethical if he or she has more than one litter per year?


No, but I would say 2 litters would be about max. Our current Black Russian Terrier breeder has about 1 litter per year, sometimes 2.



> 6. What are some questions you ask breeders, and what do you expect to hear back?


What they feed, how they raise the puppies, how many litters have the had, what testing do they have done...those kind of things. A lot of the time I feel out how the breeder "talks" to me. I am looking for a mentor and friend, not someone who acts like they are better than me and a know it all.



> 7. If you are able to visit the property of the breeder, what are you looking for, exactly?


How clean the property is. Not really how "new" everything is, but how clean it is. I like to see a clean and tidy house where the dogs live. I am looking at the condition of the parents. How the breeder interacts with her dogs and puppies. How the dog responds to the breeder.



> 8. What are your thoughts on shipping puppies via. airplane to their forever homes?


I ONLY think it's okay if you have met the puppies new family before hand, or if you have contact with someone who you trust that can "vouch" for the new family. If I were a breeder I think it would be really important to have met the actual family though....



> 9. What age is appropriate to send a puppy to his or her new home?


On average between 8 and 10 weeks. No sooner.

And look! I did the whole quote thingy right too! :biggrin:


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## xxshaelxx (Mar 8, 2010)

Sheesh! I've learned a lot just reading everyone else's replies about going through breeders, things I wish I'd have known when I got Amaya and Ryou. I don't regret getting them AT ALL, because I think they're the most awesome dogs ever, but......I regret that my breeder isn't all that...ethical (though she does do health testing for her dogs, but not always before they've been bred, apparently... ). -.-

I mean...both of their mum's have already had another litter that's already left, so they were bred RIGHT after their last litters left. I did some research a couple of months ago, after I'd gotten both of them, and found this out.

I have to say...my friend was right, that there are many breeders out there that will lie up their asses to sell dogs. And she does. I mean, she sold her dogs with breeding rights (at the time I purchased my pups with no breeding rights) for $2,000!!! And she's recently upped that price to $2,400. Without breeding rights, it was originally $1,000, and a $200 discount for paying in full, which I did. Now they're $1,200. She's definitely making a profit off of her dogs, especially considering how often she breeds, and that she feeds them Iams.... -.-

And I kind of feel ashamed at admitting this.....because I should have never went through her in the first place.​


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## DaneMama (Jun 27, 2008)

Most people don't realize what to look for the first time around when buying a puppy, so don't feel too bad. Its through experience that you learn what to look for and what to do.


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## CorgiPaws (Mar 31, 2009)

xxshaelxx said:


> And I kind of feel ashamed at admitting this.....because I should have never went through her in the first place.


Nahh, no need to be ashamed. My dogs have come from all over the place. 
My first dog was from a pet shop. We didn't know any better at the time. $600
My next dog was, well, I took him from someone.. so stolen? lol. (it was an abusive situation, previous owner was my ex. he knew I took his dog.)
My next dog, grissom, was from someone who in my mind falls into the BYB category. she health tests, but keeps puppies in deplorable conditions, and has many many litters a year. $700
It wasn't until Annie that I got my first dog from what I would consider an ethical breeder. $1000
And Chesney, well, some might flame me for how we obtained her... a woman on CL had bought her from a pet store, and then her landlord said she had to go, according to her, but when we went to pick her up... she complained a lot about poop/ pee on the carpet, so I wonder.... $75

It's all about learning, and I'm glad you got some useful advice from this thread!! I personally want to breed pemmies someday, so I'm wanting to learn all points of view.:biggrin:


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## xxshaelxx (Mar 8, 2010)

When you start breeding Pemmies, I'm SO coming to visit, just so I can visit those adorable little butt munches! XD​


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## CorgiPaws (Mar 31, 2009)

xxshaelxx said:


> When you start breeding Pemmies, I'm SO coming to visit, just so I can visit those adorable little butt munches! XD​


Haha, sounds like a plan! I'm so far from that point, though. It'll be a few years yet. I don't think I'll even get my female for another year, and then it'll be two years from there, and that's IF the first one passes health testing, which the DM test is so new and pemmies are SO plagued with it, that there homestly aren't many fit for breeding right now... sad story, really.


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## xxshaelxx (Mar 8, 2010)

Oh geeze! Poor Pemmies getting no action. haha. It is kind of sad, though, because there are probably many breeders who are, like, ignoring it and breeding anyways, or there are a lot of people who aren't breeding their dogs because they're not really fit for it...​


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## whiteleo (Sep 7, 2008)

I'm not going to go through the whole list and answer those questions but just wanted to add a couple of things from my point of view.
I did several years of research on the breed of dog I wanted but they were few and very hard to find in WA state, I tried going through the rescue but was turned down because I had cats, they said to join the club and get some connections, well I didn't really know what that meant but now I do.

I did find a litter of puppies for sale in the Seattle Times and decided to "go take a look", they were AKC, parents were both on site and this was the bitches second litter, lo and behold I left a deposit for the runt of the litter because the owners talked me into her because this was my first Bull Terrier and she was by far the least bully of the bunch.
I made my decision to get her based on the disposition of the parents on site and the contract that was to be signed that I would not breed her, if after taking her home and having my vet check her for imperfections of heart etc. I could return her for a full refund $1400.00, and if for any reason I couldn't keep her down the road I would need to call them first.

Cayenne has turned out to be the best dog or 3 yr old in a dog suit anyone could ask for, so I have since rescued her two siblings based solely on the fact that they have been misunderstood.
But in the meantime I also learned that since I joined the Bull Terrier club, I really have a plethora of opportunities of owning some really nice dogs.


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## sal101011 (Jan 17, 2010)

1. Genetic Health Testing of both parents.
you buy a dog from a breeder or from any where because you want to make sure your dog will stay healthy and live a long life with you. keep in mind though, even after genetic health testing, there is still no guarantee that the pup will be healthy throughout its life, proper nutrition and lifestyle play a big role

2. Condition of the property puppies are kept on.
i think this is extremely important, this also ties to the health of the pup. as soon as you walk in to a property where the breeder sells puppies, you can easily identify whether they are BYB or truly dedicated to the health of the breed. many breeders simply breed for size, looks, etc, this is how the breed of any dog acheives a bad reputation

3. AKC Registration.
For purebred future dog owners, this matters.

4. Price of the puppies.
not a big factor here, price should relate to champion parents, but you can easily purchase a pup for a lot cheaper from same quality parents if you look hard enough

5. Showing their breeding dogs in big time dog shows.
This only applies if you want to show your puppy in the future


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## xxshaelxx (Mar 8, 2010)

I'd like to change some of my answers. XP Now that I've learned a bit more about everything. haha.



xxshaelxx said:


> Genetic Health Testing of both parents - I want to know that my dogs are going to be the least likely to get genetic health disorders.
> 
> AKC Registration - I put this as my second highest priority, because if the breeder does not do AKC Registration, then I know they're backyard breeders or an accidental breeder.
> 
> ...


Genetic Health Testing - I would still keep this as my number one, because, well, obvious reasons. XP

Condition of property puppies are on - Moving this up, for obvious reasons and changes in my own personal preferences.

Showing their breeding dogs - I, personally, consider this important, because I don't know all the ins, outs, ups, downs, wheres, hows, whos about looking for flaws and whatnot in dogs. I just know that I thought Amaya would be a good show dog, but she actually wouldn't be. So I would want to know the dog is actually show quality, because even if showing is all about politics and whatnot these days, even a dog with bad conformation will get kicked out immediately.

AKC Registration - I still think this is important, even if it is just a piece of paper, because if I see they're registering their dogs CKC, or something likewise, I know they're BYBs or Puppy Mills. I consider it just a piece of paper as well, but if they don't have the papers, I KNOW they're not an ethical breeder.

Price - Still lower priority on my list. Of course, I would want something reasonably within my means, but it's not ANY kind of deciding factor for me in the long run.



xxshaelxx said:


> 4. How important is it for a breeder to compete in conformation shows with his or her dogs? Why? I think it's very important. Otherwise, how is anyone going to know that these dogs are breeding quality and are going to better the breed? I mean, Amaya would never win in a show ring, so I'd never want to breed her and downgrade the quality of Siberian Huskies.​


I still think it's somewhat important for in cases like me where I can't tell what would be good quality and what wouldn't. I mean, I know Ryou would never be show quality, but I thought Amaya was for the longest time. Anyways, not too important if you know what you're looking for, or know someone who does. XP



xxshaelxx said:


> 6. What are some questions you ask breeders, and what do you expect to hear back? "Do you show your dogs?" "Yes." "Have you ever won anything personally?" "Yes." "Do you health test your dogs?" "Yes." "Ever had anything come back positive for genetic disorders?" "No." "Do you socialize your dogs?" "Yes." "Do you keep puppies for at least eight weeks, if not longer?" "I like to keep them until they are about ten to twelve weeks old to get them better socialization with their littermates and mama."​


These are just general, curtailed, questions and answers, since I didn't quite understand the question and how to answer it. haha. I feel like such a dope answering like that. Of course, I would want detailed answers, not just "yes" or "no," and I would want to feel like I can come to my breeder for anything, with any question, and that they would answer completely truthfully.​


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## mstngchic2012 (Jan 30, 2010)

CorgiPaws said:


> _Put these in order of importance:
> 
> 1. Showing their breeding dogs in big time dog shows.
> 2. Genetic Health Testing of both parents.
> ...


Here is my order:
2. Genetic health testing is extremely important. I want to know that my puppy came from the healthiest parents and even from a healthy line of dogs. I would like to know about grandparents health too.
1. Showing/working dog for what they are intended for is important because I believe that by doing so it keeps breeds true to their intended purposes and standards.
4. I don't want to buy my puppy from some nasty dirty place that could have bug problems and God knows what else.
5. I wouldn't necessarily be convinced to buy a puppy just because it is registered with the AKC. I'm not impressed with the AKC or even the UKC because they are accepting some pretty questionable dogs. I would prefer that my puppy is registered through a breed specific registry (i.e. I would rather a potential APBT puppy be registered through the ABDA).
3. Price of a puppy isn't something I would look at until last because if I find a puppy that is going to fit my purposes then I'm not going to be concerned about the price.



CorgiPaws said:


> I also am curious of a few things.
> 
> 1. What is an acceptable amount to charge for a pet puppy?
> 2. Do you visit a breeder before purchasing a pup? Also, if a breeder did not allow people to come to their home, would that be a deal breaker?
> ...


1. I believe the price of a puppy should reflect the quality of it's pedigree and history (i.e. come from a working line). I'm not into just quality show dogs, I want to know that my dog will be able to work.
2. I would probably visit a breeder a couple of times before I decided about a pup. If a breeder didn't allow home visits then I would stop all contact. I think a responsible breeder would take pride in their kennels and dogs and should be willing to have potential buyers see their stock. If a breeder doesn't allow me to come visit then I would think they were hiding something.
3. This is a tough one. I would say if a breeder is charging some outrageous price for a puppy to make money then yes I would see it as a problem. If they were charging an extra couple hundred bucks then I don't see a problem with it.
4. It's not important for me if a dog is shown in conformation because if the dog is worked and is successful then their conformation should be correct.
5. It depends. Are you breeding the same bitch more than once a year or are you breeding different bitches resulting in multiple litters? I would prefer one litter a year per bitch but I wouldn't consider it unethical if she has 2. But I do see a problem in a bitch having 4,5,6 litters a year.
6. The first question that comes out of my mouth is "What kind of health testing has been done on both the dog and bitch?" I would expect them to have at least done their hips.
7. I kind of answered that in 4. at the top.
8. I don't see a problem with it as long as their immune system is strong and they are of an appropriate age (over 10 weeks).
9. I would never let a puppy go to a home under 8 weeks of age. I wouldn't even mind seeing puppies not leave until 9-10 weeks.


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## Doc (Jan 17, 2009)

1. Showing their breeding dogs in big time dog shows.
2. Genetic Health Testing of both parents.
3. Price of the puppies.
4. Condition of the property puppies are kept on.
5. AKC Registration.

As a breeder, there are three major aspects I always consider when breeding -
1. Health
2. Temperament
3. Structure

This is often refered to as the "trinity". First and foremost, a breeder must understand genetics when breeding. Unfortunately, many breeders know very little about bloodlines and genetics, which in my opinion, has led to the decline in quality of dogs over the years.

Many old time breeders are gone and so is their knowledge of which bloodlines can be crossed. Without this knowledge, it is imperative that the future dog owner has a strict criteria when buying a pup.

I do not put a great deal of value on titles and ribbons. Today's shows are a poor excuse in determining the value of a dog.

I do value the dogs in the pedigree and the bloodlines used in a breeding along with the litter's overall health, temperament, and structure. 

Price - you get what you pay for. For example, I have 4th, 5th, and 6th generation dogs in my breeding program. Some "breeders" have no clue to the pedigree and bloodlines in their dogs. You get what you pay for.


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## mstngchic2012 (Jan 30, 2010)

I forgot to add that I have more respect for breeders that cull puppies who do not fit their expectations/standards of their breeding program.


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## CorgiPaws (Mar 31, 2009)

mstngchic2012 said:


> I forgot to add that I have more respect for breeders that cull puppies who do not fit their expectations/standards of their breeding program.


In what way are you using the term cull? It's used more losely than it used to be and can mean a range of things. Technically spaying and neutering can be considered a form of culling. On the other extreme, killing a puppy is considered culling. 
And what expectations and standards would you be refering to?
I'll apply this to my own breeds to give examples:
White boxers are obviously out of breed standard, but happen in a lot of litters. Breeders used to kill these healthy puppies at birth. This is considered culling.
"Fluffy" or long haired pembroke welsh corgis are considered out of standard, and are generally on limited contracts. This spaying and neutering can be considered culling.


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## mstngchic2012 (Jan 30, 2010)

CorgiPaws said:


> In what way are you using the term cull? It's used more losely than it used to be and can mean a range of things. Technically spaying and neutering can be considered a form of culling. On the other extreme, killing a puppy is considered culling.
> And what expectations and standards would you be refering to?
> I'll apply this to my own breeds to give examples:
> White boxers are obviously out of breed standard, but happen in a lot of litters. Breeders used to kill these healthy puppies at birth. This is considered culling.
> "Fluffy" or long haired pembroke welsh corgis are considered out of standard, and are generally on limited contracts. This spaying and neutering can be considered culling.


Um, it depends on what circumstance is.

If a puppy doesn't have the correct temperament for the breed then I think it should be PTS.

If color or conformation is something that is unacceptable then I wouldn't see a problem in spay/neuter.


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## DaneMama (Jun 27, 2008)

Or like ridgeless ridgebacks are culled, even though they don't have the predisposition for the genetic disorder dermoid sinus like the ridged dogs, who fit the breed standard (link below). How does that make sense? Let's cull the genetically healthier animals!!!

Dermoid sinus

Culling puppies at birth that don't fit the standard is an outdated and useless practice.


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## DaneMama (Jun 27, 2008)

mstngchic2012 said:


> Um, it depends on what circumstance is.
> 
> If a puppy doesn't have the correct temperament for the breed then I think it should be PTS.
> 
> If color or conformation is something that is unacceptable then I wouldn't see a problem in spay/neuter.


So what you're saying is that for example a Dane that isn't snuggly and goofy should be put to sleep? Or a lab that has no desire to fetch should be put to sleep? Why not keep it at not breeding those dogs? Seems a bit extreme to put these dogs down...considering you can't really get a good reading on temperament on an animal until it's an adult. A breeder would have to keep all of their puppies til adults to find out? That just makes no sense whatsoever.


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## luvMyBRT (Mar 8, 2010)

mstngchic2012 said:


> If a puppy doesn't have the correct temperament for the breed then I think it should be PTS.


You have GOT to be kidding me.


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## xxshaelxx (Mar 8, 2010)

I can understand culling in terms of altering, but...PTS? That's a little harsh. The puppy didn't ask to be born with an off personality. Not only that, but as Danemama said, the breeder would never really know the personality until a long time after they're born, and I would think that culling would be done at birth if it's to PTS...

I, personally, do not agree with culling in terms of PTS, and I'm on the fence about culling in terms of altering, because I still believe that all pets should be altered after a certain age to avoid health issues that could rise up later in life due to being altered too soon, but then it would cut down on the number of dogs going to homes that are going to irresponsibly breed.​


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## CorgiPaws (Mar 31, 2009)

mstngchic2012 said:


> If a puppy doesn't have the correct temperament for the breed then I think it should be PTS.
> .


This absolutely DISGUSTS me. I'm amazed that people still think this way. 

You know, the AKC has people so damn brainwashed over what is acceptable and what's not that it's pathetic. Those "perfect" dogs in the show ring can be riddles with various diseases and are usually worthless in the field. 
Guess what? My corgi doesn't heard. And he's NOT being put to sleep. 

I have ZERO respect for ANY breeder who ever CONSIDERS culling puppies (with the exception of severe deformities that will make quality of life incredibly poor. Deafness/ blindness do not fall in that category, either) It is a cruel cop out way of hiding a lazy breeders "mistakes."


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## mstngchic2012 (Jan 30, 2010)

I know that people disagree with culling in terms of PTS but it's just something that I respect. I don't agree with the AKC because they do accept some very questionable dogs I made this clear in my first response to your questions CorgiPaws. I am also a very big advocate for health testing so I'm not saying that people should be breeding unhealthy dogs what so ever. I'm not saying that dog shouldn't exist because it doesn't work either but there are certain traits that should be presentable in a dog/puppy of a certain breed.

There are puppy aptitude tests out there that should be used on every litter.


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## xxshaelxx (Mar 8, 2010)

mstngchic2012 said:


> I know that people disagree with culling in terms of PTS but it's just something that I respect. I don't agree with the AKC because they do accept some very questionable dogs I made this clear in my first response to your questions CorgiPaws. I am also a very big advocate for health testing so I'm not saying that people should be breeding unhealthy dogs what so ever. I'm not saying that dog shouldn't exist because it doesn't work either but there are certain traits that should be presentable in a dog/puppy of a certain breed.
> 
> There are puppy aptitude tests out there that should be used on every litter.


Even if a puppy doesn't have the right temperament for that breed, they shouldn't be PTS... I mean, you don't put kids to sleep because they're not smart, or they turn out be rotten little kids. Just spay/neuter them so that they can't produce anymore puppies like them.

As Danemama said, you're going to put down a lab for not playing fetch? Or you're going to put down a Dane for not being cuddly and sweet? Or what about Corgi's Corgi that doesn't herd? You gonna tell her to put him to sleep because he doesn't have the right personality? Or what about my Siberian Huskies who are relatively obedient, don't pull too bad when on walks, and are overall mellow and sweet, rather than hyper and active?​


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## Jem (Dec 17, 2009)

How the hell can you tell if a newborn puppy doesn't have the right "temperament" at birth? There is absolutely no reason to cull or PTS a newborn puppy.


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## Jem (Dec 17, 2009)

My dog's breeder is VERY responsible. She did all the testing on her dogs ensuring good health and no congenital diseases before breeding them. She gave me a health guarantee against any genetic disease in the span of my dog's life. AND she sold me a ridgeless ridgeback =). For this, I am thankful everyday. My dog is wonderful. This is what makes me respect her even more.


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## luvMyBRT (Mar 8, 2010)

mstngchic2012 said:


> I know that people disagree with culling in terms of PTS but it's just something that I respect. I don't agree with the AKC because they do accept some very questionable dogs I made this clear in my first response to your questions CorgiPaws. I am also a very big advocate for health testing so I'm not saying that people should be breeding unhealthy dogs what so ever. I'm not saying that dog shouldn't exist because it doesn't work either but there are certain traits that should be presentable in a dog/puppy of a certain breed.
> 
> There are puppy aptitude tests out there that should be used on every litter.


Can you please give an example of what you are talking about?? What certain traits should of Kodi, my Rottweiler had?? I guess that since my GSH Pointer doesn't hunt I really should go and have her put to sleep. What certain traits should a Lab have? A Great Dane? A Husky? 

I think I am in dismay. I can't believe that someone really would think it's okay to PTS a newborn/young puppy......WOW.


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## Jem (Dec 17, 2009)

I think there needs to be an OWNER aptitude test for every potential owner!!! People considering a puppy should be tested beforehand to make sure they can handle a dominant/high strung/independent/WHATEVER dog!! (also...my breeder did this. she did not let us pick our puppy...she picked our puppy for us based on our lifestyle and experience)


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## DaneMama (Jun 27, 2008)

I think the "owner aptitude" test would put rescue organizations out of work. Its people who are to blame that there are too many dogs/cats out there in the first place.


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## mstngchic2012 (Jan 30, 2010)

First off I never said a newborn pup should be culled. Obviously you can't evaluate their temperament as soon as they are out of the womb.

Secondly, I never said that a dog who doesn't work should be PTS.

Thirdly, I feel that if a breeder feels that a pup, after a thorough evaluation, doesn't fit his/her purpose for what ever it is they are breeding for then I respect their decision in culling.

I'm sorry that people don't like my opinion but I firmly stand by it.


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## CorgiPaws (Mar 31, 2009)

mstngchic2012 said:


> Thirdly, I feel that if a breeder feels that a pup, after a thorough evaluation, doesn't fit his/her purpose for what ever it is they are breeding for then I respect their decision in culling.


First off: so if a breeder is breeding for working dogs, how the heck would they know if a puppy were fit in the first two months of its life? If yould no longer be their puppy. 

Second off: I wanted Grissom to be an agility dog. That's part of why I picked that breed, and his line. He didn't really work out in agility. Should I just kill him since he didn't fit the tab? I mean, he came from agility parents, I really was aiming for an agility dog. 

Third off: By the time a puppy's temperment and disposition would be fully developed they'd no longer be in the posession of a breeder in most cases. 

Fourth off: So... "show potential" pupies that breeders keep.... if later on... they mature and have more faults than they hoped, just kill them off, right?

I can't wrap my head around it. I can't at all.


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## xxshaelxx (Mar 8, 2010)

CorgiPaws said:


> I can't wrap my head around it. I can't at all.


Neither can I...I mean, as you say in another post in another thread:



CorgiPaws said:


> Dare I ask if you would put a pit to sleep for being friendly to other dogs?


I know, Mstng, you said "breeding for a certain purpose," but originally, this is ALL pit bulls were bred to do, was be DA and to fight, and since then, people have realized that they're actually a great breed and that they want to turn that around. Still, their disposition was supposed to be DA, therefore, to have a pit bull who is friendly with other dogs goes against their original breed standard.

Not only that, but I got Sibes for their energy and have been surprised by how mellow mine are. Should they be euthanized because they're not as hyper as I wanted them to be? As they should be?​


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## mstngchic2012 (Jan 30, 2010)

xxshaelxx said:


> I know, Mstng, you said "breeding for a certain purpose,"


I should have explained that it doesn't have to be their "original" purpose. There are breeders who breed working dogs. For example, a breeder may breed alternative bulldogges for the purpose of personal protection sport (PP). If a breeder feels that puppy doesn't display the correct temperament after a good evaluation then they will cull it. Yes, I know it is sad but there are experienced and very respected breeders who do it.

I have many close friends involved in coonhounds. They constantly evaluate the pups that they buy or keep from a litter. The pup is tested in stages. By the time that a pup is 6 months old it should be able to track a raccoon pelt trail. If it doesn't then it is culled. By the time a pup is 9 months old it should be able to track a raccoon on its own, if not it's culled. If a coonhound runs a deer many people will shoot the dog on the spot. If a coonhound tracks anything but a raccoon it gets the crap beat out of it and given another chance, if the dog does it again then the dog is left in the woods at the bottom of the tree. It's extremely sad and out dated but these people have been involved in coonhounds for generations and do not want dogs in their lines that are anything but what they expect. They also don't want to sell dogs that are less than what they expect because they don't want to ruin their reputation.


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## DaneMama (Jun 27, 2008)

^^^ Well, these "respected" breeders are respected by very few...which means these breeders are not well respected at all really. One could say that these breeders are some of the least respected out there and comparable to puppy millers or BYBs in their ethics, at least in my honest opinion.

These "breeders" are nothing more than cruel and horrible for what they do. What separates these cases from the typical animal cruelty cases you hear and read about in the news? NOTHING other than they believe they are entitled to beating and killing animals for keeping their lines pure. You would think after doing this for generations and generations they wouldn't still end up with dogs who "step outta line" but the fact that they do just makes it clear as day that this "technique" is worthless.


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## CorgiPaws (Mar 31, 2009)

mstngchic2012 said:


> I should have explained that it doesn't have to be their "original" purpose. There are breeders who breed working dogs. For example, a breeder may breed alternative bulldogges for the purpose of personal protection sport (PP).


So I ask again. Grissom was from AGILITY stock, bred for speed and ability in the agility ring. That's what hs parents were bred for, and that's what I bought him for, aside from companionship, of course. He was the biggest agility flop ever. Is it then warrented to kill him? He does not do the thing he was bred for. He does not run the course. He does not weave. In fact, after about 5 poles, he flops and lays down and doesn't continue. He's not stupid, he just doesn't LIKE to do it. So.. kill him?



mstngchic2012 said:


> If a breeder feels that puppy doesn't display the correct temperament after a good evaluation then they will cull it. Yes, I know it is sad but there are experienced and very respected breeders who do it.


These breeders are only respected by people who place no value on the life of a dog. There is no excuse outside of extreme aggression, or extreme deformities that make it impossible for the animal to have any quality of life. MURDERING a pup because they're not exactly what you want is absolutely repulsive and unexcusable. I'd love to see people who do this rotting behind bars- exactly where they belong. 



mstngchic2012 said:


> The pup is tested in stages. By the time that a pup is 6 months old it should be able to track a raccoon pelt trail. If it doesn't then it is culled. By the time a pup is 9 months old it should be able to track a raccoon on its own, if not it's culled.


And this is just okay? No. I think not. This is dusgusting. Do these barbarians that call themselves "respectable" breeders even consider that perhaps that dog would make one of the best companions a man, woman, or child could ask for? No, obviously not... they were too busy puppy slaying. 



mstngchic2012 said:


> It's extremely sad and out dated but these people have been involved in coonhounds for generations and do not want dogs in their lines that are anything but what they expect. They also don't want to sell dogs that are less than what they expect because they don't want to ruin their reputation.


They are more concerned about their ego than the welfare of the dogs they breed? More concerned about their name than properly caring for their dogs. 
MAYBE if they're so damn ashamed that they are producing dogs not up to their standard they ought to STOP breeding. They're worse than BYBs. They're even worse than puppy mills. They're the scum at the bottom of the breeding pool. 

Remind me to NEVER go to any breeder you'd consider. I'm against animal cruelty. You can tell your "friends" their egos are disgusting.


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## Sir (Feb 4, 2010)

> What do you look for in a breeder?


She would be a self-reliant flexible giver who has amazing inner/out'er beauty.

Wait...what?


Did you mean dog breeders? :wink:

Well, there's thousands of dogs in need of a loving home & I do not look for qualities in dog breeders. A lack of dogs is not an issue. More bullshitz dog breeds are popping out all over the place. Someone named them, designer dogs. :biggrin:


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## DaneMama (Jun 27, 2008)

^^^ The fact that this is a dog forum and the fact that she is asking about breeders, I'm sure you can put two and two together and figure out that we are talking about dog breeders :tongue:


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## Jem (Dec 17, 2009)

mstngchic2012 said:


> First off I never said a newborn pup should be culled. Obviously you can't evaluate their temperament as soon as they are out of the womb.


I don't think any dog under the age of say...one year old is going to give an accurate temperament evaluation when it comes to the decision of culling or not. Especially not an eight week old puppy. The original question was what do you look for in a breeder. So maybe you didn't say newborn, but we were talking about breeders doing it. Most breeders only have puppies up until 8 weeks old (some up to 12 weeks); again a puppy this young cannot be completely evaluated for temperament. You can have a very good idea at this age what the demeanor will be, but NO puppy this young will EVER do anything to deserve culling. Once it is older and had time to mature and be trained etc...then more thorough testing can begin. So if a breeder is culling an eight week old puppy even if he seems like he may end up being dangerous and aggressive, there is no justification for this act. In rare cases, I do believe that some dogs (i.e. pitbulls who have been trained to fight) would benefit from euthanasia. For some dogs the saying is true...once a fighter always a fighter. But not in the case of an eight week old pup. disgusting.


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## xxshaelxx (Mar 8, 2010)

mstngchic2012 said:


> I have many close friends involved in coonhounds. They constantly evaluate the pups that they buy or keep from a litter. The pup is tested in stages. By the time that a pup is 6 months old it should be able to track a raccoon pelt trail. If it doesn't then it is culled. By the time a pup is 9 months old it should be able to track a raccoon on its own, if not it's culled. If a coonhound runs a deer many people will shoot the dog on the spot.


 That act disgusts me. If at six months, the dog is unable to track a raccoon pelt, then the owner should send it back to the breeder in exchange for another dog, then the dog should be altered and adopted out as a family dog.



mstngchic2012 said:


> If a coonhound tracks anything but a raccoon it gets the crap beat out of it and given another chance, if the dog does it again then the dog is left in the woods at the bottom of the tree.


THAT is blatant animal abuse. If you had kids, and you were training them for hunting, would you beat them for chasing after a rabbit when they're supposed to be tracking raccoons? Then would you leave them at the base of a tree for doing it again? THAT is just disgusting. Not every dog in a line of great dogs is going to be great. Those breeders need to suck up their pride and admit that they can't always breed perfect puppies.



mstngchic2012 said:


> It's extremely sad


If it's so extremely sad, then why do you agree with it? Why do you condone it?



mstngchic2012 said:


> and out dated but these people have been involved in coonhounds for generations and do not want dogs in their lines that are anything but what they expect. They also don't want to sell dogs that are less than what they expect because they don't want to ruin their reputation.


Oh yeah, their reputation. Because a dog's life is all about THEIR reputation. I don't consider anyone that would cull a dog as reputable or ethical. That would be like murdering your child just because he's mean to another kid, or just because he doesn't wash the dishes right. I mean, that's what kids are supposed to do, right, play with other kids and wash the dishes?


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## jdatwood (Apr 13, 2009)

mstngchic2012 said:


> If a coonhound runs a deer many people will shoot the dog on the spot. If a coonhound tracks anything but a raccoon it gets the crap beat out of it and given another chance, if the dog does it again then the dog is left in the woods at the bottom of the tree.


This is just disgusting. These people shouldn't be allowed to breed HUMAN children, let alone dogs


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## rannmiller (Jun 27, 2008)

What I don't get is that this doesn't seem to help their "breeding program" at all! 

How does killing this puppy rather than having it spayed/neutered and placed in a pet home change the fact that their dogs produced a dog that didn't fit the standard? If they really wanted to be logical about it, they'd kill the parents for producing such a "monstrosity" in the first place! 

It just doesn't make any sense to me. And I can't believe you would advocate for your coonhound-breeding friends who beat and murder their dogs, even though you said that it's an outdated and sad practice, you still said you agree with it. That just makes no sense!

None of it makes any sense! If the dog doesn't fit the breed standard for what it's supposed to do, then sell it to a pet only home and try again! What does killing the poor pup do except for needlessly take a life? I really just don't understand what they are trying to accomplish. Can you please shed some light on that for me? Killing the puppy, not the things that produced the puppy, does not "solve" anything.


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## whiteleo (Sep 7, 2008)

This whole last part of this thread is disgusting and obviously is coming from people who live in the "woods" if you know what I mean. These practices can only be accomplished if the people have no heart and feelings for their animals. I could say what area I think they are from but I think we all have an idea of that.


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