# Horrible morning at Vets office



## Pogo0685 (Mar 30, 2011)

I just need to vent and post about my horrible morning at the vets office today, I have been feeding raw for 9 months now with almost no issues, this is my first one and I am now looking for a vet, I also posted this on the coloradocarnivores yahoo group to see is anyone there could offer advise or tell me of a raw friendly vet in my area, its kinda long so sorry in advance.

Today I had to take one of my 3 dogs to the vet.. It was horrible. Last night when I fed him about 10 minutes after he threw up about 2 days worth of food, he had chicken the last 2 nights and he threw up all of last nights dinner (looked fresh) and at least half of the night befores dinner (was half digested looking and kinda grayish in color) I thought maybe he was just really excited because he has been in his kennel most the day because we went to Salida, the today he drank some water after he came in from his morning potty and immediately threw it all back up too, so we took him to the vet and of course as soon as she read on his file that he was raw fed she started lecturing me and telling me how horrible a raw diet is, thats its in no way balanced or good for the dog, and how all the raw fed dogs she sees that come in are malnourished and sick and they look sickly with dull coats and just kept going on, so I told her that other than him throwing up and having gas all 3 of my dogs are healthy and look fine and maybe the people whom have brought her raw fed dogs in the past don't try to source the meats and organs the dogs need, I told her I make sure to feed my dogs organs as well as bones and meat, she told that that doesn't matter and bones are bad for dogs, then she asked if I give them carbs and I told her no, they get meat and organs and thats it and she told me that they need carbs to be healthy so me being kinda irritated I asked her if she has ever seen a wolf or coyote digging for food in a strawberry patch and she told me that dogs are in no way similar to wolves and that they don't have the same needs. I was seriously in shock. So after all that she did a fecal and she said he has an overgrowth of clostridum and that the only thing that could do it is the raw food diet, then does blood work and it all came back normal so he is now on antibiotics for the bacteria and I asked her about also giving him probiotics to help with the good bacteria in his stomach while he is on the antibiotics and she told me how its not necessary because the antibiotics only kill the bad bacteria and don't kill the good, now in my understanding of antibiotics that is NOT how this works, so I made sure to get him probiotics also. So any input from you guys on this? I am at a loss as to what to do, I don't want him to be sick but I also think she is wrong in her thinking about everything from raw diets to antibiotics only targeting the bad bacteria. And also what can I do for him to make his gut a little stronger so he wont get sick again? He did have a meal of venison that had been in a freezer that went off for a few days during a power outage and defrosted and then came back on, I have fed meat like this in the past without any issue but I don't know if I will feed it again (I have half a freezer full of it). Anyone here have a vet that is supportive of raw feeding in Pueblo, CO? I know there are lots in springs but I cant justify driving 2 hours to get my dogs to the vets, I live out in Avondale. Thank you for reading any any input will be greatly appreciated.


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## Kat (Jul 12, 2011)

Yeah, when on antibiotics, they kill everything, the good and the bad bacteria. Some people on this forum will say not to use probiotics because the meat will have the digestive enzymes it needs to break down. But personally, after antibiotics, I like to do probiotics. I dont see the point of giving the probiotics while your dog is on antibiotics, because they will just be killed off. I would say 24 hours after the antibiotics are done, you should start giving probiotics. (I say 24 hours because thats how long it apparently takes for the last dose to leave the body). As an immune-booster, someone on this forum suggested to me to use Bovine Colostrum, it also helps the intestines to absorb nutrients. But I think you can only use that short term, not every day, I could be wrong though. Its fine if meat half defrosts and then gets frozen again. Hope this helps, good luck!


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## rory (Oct 4, 2011)

So sorry your pup isn't feeling well! Clostridium overgrowth is generally a food-borne illness (although normal amounts of the bacteria can usually be found in the large intestine of healthy dogs). And it can, indeed, come from raw (or poorly cooked) meat, but also from poop-eating, or any other means of ingesting large quantities of the bacteria. You said that the freezer went off for a few days, which seems like a really long time in my book. I guess it also depends if the meat got warm or not. I personally don't refreeze anything that has been brought to room temp, but will refreeze and feed if it stayed cold while thawed. If the meat got warm, I'd personally toss it.


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## DaneMama (Jun 27, 2008)

My goodness. That vet is really uninformed and misguided in her intentions. I would call and make sure that the vet knows that you'll never come back and that you won't ever recommend them to anyone, even kibble feeders. The fact that she doesn't know how antibiotics work is just inexcusable. 

Colorado carnivores will hopefully give you some good advice for vets, they are a great group!


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## lauren43 (Feb 6, 2011)

Reading this makes me really loose hope for vets. I just can't believe the amount of BS she fed you. I understand the whole raw thing can be controversial with vets but antibiotics? Really? Seriously? How can someone who went to school for 8 years (not to mention the residency she had to do) not know the function of antibiotics???

And dogs not being comparable to wolves, did she go to school at all?


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## Pogo0685 (Mar 30, 2011)

Thanks for the replies, I will wait to give the probiotics until after I am done with the antibiotics. My dog is a poop eater, he always has been even when we had him on kibble, back then he only ate the other dog poop, now we have free-range chickens and ducks and geese (well one goose) and he eats all their poop also. I really dont know if the meat got warm, I figured it was safe to feed because everything I read said the dogs will be fine because they have so much bacteria designed to break down the bacteria in rotten meat but maybe this meat is just a little past that point for him. I dont know. I was so happy to get all the free meat but if thats what the cause was it just cost me $150 in vet bills so its not quite as cost effective as I thought it was . The sad part about the vet is I have been going there for YEARS and its only one vet there that I don't like, I have had issues with her before this one today, but going in as a walk in you cant get to pick the vet that you get to see, I really do hope I find a vet that will accept my views though because this one is just horrible and everyone says that they are the best vets in Pueblo, ask anyone here and they get rave reviews. I hate to stop going there but she made me feel so horrible in my decisions today that I almost started to second guess myself, if I didn't have my husband support I think I would have cried in the office, but when I look at their health and when I see how much better they look, and smell and act I know I am doing the right thing. I will look up the bovine colostrum, my dogs are my family and I hate to see them sick. Thanks everyone


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## rory (Oct 4, 2011)

You know, dogs stomachs are stronger than humans, but each individual will differ and none of them are indestructible. I personally buy fresh meat and feed or freeze it right away - in fact, I could probably eat my dogs food raw and not get ill (not that I'm going to try it). Even if your dog can handle spoiled or rotting meat, doesn't necessarily mean you should feed it, or it is best. Just toss the deer - you won't know if it's the culprit unless you try, and if it is, you'll have another round of vet bills you don't want and a sick puppy.

It is too bad about your vet, hopefully you can get another one next time you are there. Not sure it is necessary to find one that "accepts your views" though - my primary vet is pro-raw but suggests vitamin tabs just in case, since there are very few empirical studies on raw and it is difficult to say anything with certainty. The other vets at the clinic are definitely not pro - still, I wouldn't avoid one just because they are not in the raw camp - maybe you can even get them to keep an open mind.


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## Scarlett_O' (May 19, 2011)

I wish I could tell you of a good vet in the area, but when we lived down there I never could find one that I liked and that didnt push their "rx" crap!:sad:

But as everyone else said, you know the vet was wrong!! And I hope that the Co-Op can help you find a GOOD vet!!!!


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## MollyWoppy (Mar 19, 2010)

Don't stress. You know whats right for your dog. You are going to get this crap against raw feeding with most vets, unfortunately its more the norm than the exception right now.
I know how you feel though, I have the exact same problem. The husband vet is against raw feeding, but the wife vet is vehemently against raw feeding. Yet, I still go there because the husband vet is just awesome at his job, I would trust Mollie's life with him anytime.
Mollie had a problem very similar to your pups problem when she was young and I first stared on pre-made raw. The vet of course blamed the raw food, enough to scare me off raw until I got onto this forum and found what he told me was a load of crap.
Then this year I had to take Mol in because she cracked a tooth. Of course the dentistry expert is the wife. So, I get, 'oh, Mollie looks great, her coat is perfect, oh boy, I can tell she gets a lot of exercise, her weight is perfect, and those teeth, they are just gorgeous. You must brush them everyday'. Uh, no, gulp, I feed her raw, is what I bravely stuttered. 
The whole demeanour in the room changed, 'well, the wife vet goes, I simply can not agree with that'. And proceeds to give me a sample bag of some Science Diet with huge kibbles, a toothbrush and some toothpaste.
What can you say? I just go with the flow now, I won't bring it up unless its absolutely necessary. Any information I need I will get it from this forum (watch for my blood test questions coming up soon).
What I would do in your case, and I must admit I do feel quite gutless, is if you really do love the vet you normally use, then stay but just not bother arguing but do what you feel is best for your dogs, or get on the phone and ring vets in the vicinity and ask what their opinion is on a raw diet. You might come up lucky.


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## doggoblin (Jun 6, 2011)

About carbohydrates, taken from the orijin white paper:



> The Association of American Feed Control Officials’ (AAFCO) nutrient profiles show that carbohydrates are not essential for dogs and cats, and that no minimum level of carbohydrate is needed in their diets.


David Kronfeld, Ph.D., Dsc., MVSc., author of numerous papers on dog foods, takes a much stronger stand against carbohydrates in the canine diet than most other canine diet experts. Whereas many experts feel that carbohydrates should be limited (but not totally eliminated) to help stave off health threats such as obesity and diabetes, Dr. Kronfeld said, “Carbohydrates are most important for dogs in two situations: puppies just coming off mother’s milk and lactating bitches.“ He continues by saying that carbohydrates need not be supplied to adult dogs, even those working hard, as the liver is able to easily synthesize sufficient glucose for utilization by the body.


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## hmbutler (Aug 4, 2011)

MollyWoppy said:


> So, I get, 'oh, Mollie looks great, her coat is perfect, oh boy, I can tell she gets a lot of exercise, her weight is perfect, and *those teeth, they are just gorgeous. You must brush them everyday'. Uh, no*, gulp, I feed her raw, is what I bravely stuttered.
> The whole demeanour in the room changed, 'well, the wife vet goes, I simply can not agree with that'. And proceeds to give me a sample bag of some Science Diet with huge kibbles, *a toothbrush and some toothpaste*.


ok... so... the dentist agrees that mollie has amazing teeth, and assumes you must brush every day. You provide her with a solution showing that with the right food, there is no need to brush every day. So she says she cannot agree with that, and offers you crappy food and a toothbrush... riiiigggghhhhtttttttt


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## Khan (Jan 17, 2010)

Wow, That is so awful to hear how misinformed the vets out there are. I wish I could give you some advice on that.
As for the probiotic, I think giving it while on the antibiotic would be pointless; but I do think that a weeks worth when the meds are gone is not a bad idea. 
I don't think that any of us can know where our dogs "pick up" bacteria. Shelby had a case of a bacteria infection a few months ago. She eats the same as everyone else, yet she was the only one that came down with it. I just figured that since she's the littlest, whatever it was the bigger dogs were able to ward it off. Something the vet did ask me about was if I had any bird feeders in the yard or had visited any parks that had a lot of birds in them. Birds apparently carry quite a lot of bacteria. So I just wonder if he's picked something up from the ducks and geese. I would try and make sure that you wipe his paws after he's been out with the ducks and geese. Chances are for as gross as the poop eating is, that's probably not the culprit; but instead it's something he's tracked in from his paws!!


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## MollyWoppy (Mar 19, 2010)

hmbutler said:


> ok... so... the dentist agrees that mollie has amazing teeth, and assumes you must brush every day. You provide her with a solution showing that with the right food, there is no need to brush every day. So she says she cannot agree with that, and offers you crappy food and a toothbrush... riiiigggghhhhtttttttt


I know, words failed me. What more proof could she possibly need??? Maybe she was pissed as it meant less work for her?


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## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

MollyWoppy said:


> Then this year I had to take Mol in because she cracked a tooth. Of course the dentistry expert is the wife. So, I get, 'oh, Mollie looks great, her coat is perfect, oh boy, I can tell she gets a lot of exercise, her weight is perfect, and those teeth, they are just gorgeous. You must brush them everyday'. Uh, no, gulp, I feed her raw, is what I bravely stuttered.
> The whole demeanour in the room changed, 'well, the wife vet goes, I simply can not agree with that'. And proceeds to give me a sample bag of some Science Diet with huge kibbles, a toothbrush and some toothpaste.


I'm surprised she didn't think to scold you about the cracked tooth. It's amazing how people are so determined to not change their mind once they have it made it up.

That's almost as idiotic as telling someone antibiotics are particular as to what bacteria thye kill. Good Lord, you learn that stuff in junior high school.

My vet's office has two vets - one i love, the other I avoid like the plague. I go to the ER rather than see her if she is working that day.

There are various and sundry reasons, chiefly that she talks AT me rather than WITH me, but the last straw was when she rolled her eyes at me. This was long before raw food, I cringe to think about the eye-rolling if I told her that.

And do vets think dogs never get parasites who eat dry food? Just because a dog gets a parasite AND is on raw food doesn't mean they are related. Maybe you have to factor in the poop eating and a million other things that dogs ingest on a daily basis.

People can be so narrow minded.


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## DaViking (Sep 27, 2011)

rory said:


> You know, dogs stomachs are stronger than humans, but each individual will differ and none of them are indestructible. I personally buy fresh meat and feed or freeze it right away - in fact, I could probably eat my dogs food raw and not get ill (not that I'm going to try it). Even if your dog can handle spoiled or rotting meat, doesn't necessarily mean you should feed it, or it is best. Just toss the deer - you won't know if it's the culprit unless you try, and if it is, you'll have another round of vet bills you don't want and a sick puppy.
> 
> It is too bad about your vet, hopefully you can get another one next time you are there. Not sure it is necessary to find one that "accepts your views" though - my primary vet is pro-raw but suggests vitamin tabs just in case, since there are very few empirical studies on raw and it is difficult to say anything with certainty. The other vets at the clinic are definitely not pro - still, I wouldn't avoid one just because they are not in the raw camp - maybe you can even get them to keep an open mind.


+1

Also as I saw it mention several times in this thread. Does anyone have links to any serious studies that show benefits to dogs from pre/probiotics? Anything beyond theory? Not denying any benefits, just curious about the facts.


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## DaViking (Sep 27, 2011)

Pogo0685 said:


> I asked her if she has ever seen a wolf or coyote digging for food in a strawberry patch


They do, from time to time. Maybe not your local strawberry farm but they do go after berries and greens now and then. It's been documented. Not well understood, might be the sweetness, might be micro-nutrients or both. What they don't do is hanging out outside a mill waiting for a fresh run


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## doggiedad (Jan 23, 2011)

your dogs health should justify a 2 hour drive or more.



Pogo0685 said:


> Anyone here have a vet that is supportive of raw feeding in Pueblo, CO? I know there are lots in springs but I cant justify driving 2 hours to get my dogs to the vets, I live out in Avondale. Thank you for reading any any input will be greatly appreciated.


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## HayleyMarie (Jul 6, 2011)

DaViking said:


> They do, from time to time. Maybe not your local strawberry farm but they do go after berries and greens now and then. It's been documented. Not well understood, might be the sweetness, might be micro-nutrients or both. What they don't do is hanging out outside a mill waiting for a fresh run


This, although does not mean they need it but the local foxes dif up and eat our carrots as well as eat our strawberries off the plant, but so do my dogs. But I am pro that dogs don't need fruits or veggies in their diet. I think it's just an extra treat for them


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## Chocx2 (Nov 16, 2009)

I'm sorry to hear your baby is sick but I thought I would post what happened to my aussie while trying to change him all the way over on raw. 
I was feeding him for about a week and he got runny poo and wasn't feeling good, then it got worse, he started throwing up his meals sounds kinda like what happen to you. I got some advice from someone on this site, telling me to fast him and then cut his meals down to a small amount, I did for about a week or so, I also gave him probotics. Well he got a little thin from cutting his food back but once he started doing better I upp'd his meal and the rest is history. He is doing great. I might have been over feeding him or maybe his tummy is sensitive I know my aussie's is. He acts like a tuff boy but his tummy is sensitive so I'm a little more careful with him.

As far as the vet is concerned she or he believes what they are telling you and probably have not been subjected to diet diversity I call it, lol. They are just not keeping up with the times. 

My friend is a vet, and over the last three years she has improved her feeding suggestions to a lot of people. She also found out that even her employees had been feeding raw for sometime. This year she stopped feeding her dogs Science Diet, but wouldn't made any comments, so I believe she is realizing the difference in foods! Its through no fault of there own that bad info has been taught to them:smile:


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## MollyWoppy (Mar 19, 2010)

doggiedad said:


> your dogs health should justify a 2 hour drive or more.


I've thought about this a few times in my situation. But its not the drive that puts me off. It's the fact that if there was an emergency, I want Mol & Windy to go to their own vet and I want that vet to be close. 
I can't justify a hour or more drive with my dog or cat lying beside me with some majorly wrong. 
When Windy got something in her eye and it was swollen shut at 5.15 on a Friday evening, we were at our vets within 20mins, breaking the speed limit whilst they stayed open waiting for us. I just can't stomach driving much further than that unless the standard of health care you get closer to home is diabolical. Our vet is awesome in every other way, just not the raw feeding way. 
Maybe, one day, one fine day, Mollie's good health (touch wood big time here) may convince them its not that bad and they'll be more receptive.


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## DaViking (Sep 27, 2011)

HayleyMarie said:


> This, although does not mean they need it but the local foxes dif up and eat our carrots as well as eat our strawberries off the plant, but so do my dogs. But I am pro that dogs don't need fruits or veggies in their diet. I think it's just an extra treat for them


Dogs don't need to be on a pmr diet either. I don't put too much weight into the "don't need" argument. Fact remains that they do eat it at random in the wild and they do take up the micronutrients, utilize fiber and small amounts of sugars from greens, fruits and berries. All this is fine, the problem arises when man pile up the grains. And if that wasn't enough, they use el-cheapo grains of low quality produced in a questionable way.


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## KlaMarie (Dec 30, 2010)

xellil said:


> That's almost as idiotic as telling someone antibiotics are particular as to what bacteria thye kill. Good Lord, you learn that stuff in junior high school.


Eh, sometimes certain bacteria are not susceptable to certain antibiotics. So in a way, some bacteria are particular in what antibiotics can kill them. Even Vancomycin, one of the the strongest antibiotics out there, will not kill a VRE infection, because that bacteria is resitant to Vanco. 

But in most cases, ANY antibiotic WILL adversly affect the good, normal bacterial flora that most dogs/people have. So yes, pro-biotics can help regain balance after a round of antibiotics.


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## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

KlaMarie said:


> Eh, sometimes certain bacteria are not susceptable to certain antibiotics. So in a way, some bacteria are particular in what antibiotics can kill them. Even Vancomycin, one of the the strongest antibiotics out there, will not kill a VRE infection, because that bacteria is resitant to Vanco.
> 
> But in most cases, ANY antibiotic WILL adversly affect the good, normal bacterial flora that most dogs/people have. So yes, pro-biotics can help regain balance after a round of antibiotics.


Well, bacteria are getting more and more resistant to all of the antibiotics we have now. It's pretty scary, actually. That's why we see so many broad-spectrum antibiotics prescribed rather than targeted antibiotics, especially for non-defined infection. just do a scattershot and hope something sticks. Meantime, it is affecting the natural balance of all the bacteria in our digestive system if we are taking pills.

I have no problem with the theory of probiotics. I think alot of the probiotics they sell doesn't really do what we think it does because the bacteria are dead by the time we take the pill. It's a marketing gimmick - they ARE probiotics, just dead ones that don't work.


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## HappyPuppy (Sep 26, 2011)

I don't have any experience with the bacteria overgrowth.... But WOW at that Vet! I would be changing. In fact, our current vet was recommended to me and I ended up switching from the recommended senior vet to another one on staff because I got the anti-raw ('dogs choke on bones') lecture on our first visit. I LOVE the one we have now - and she takes a lot of time with us. I think it is hugely important to be happy with/like one's vet! I am also prepared to say to any vet that I don't believe they are trained enough in nutrition to give a lot of advice on that subject.


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## Pogo0685 (Mar 30, 2011)

doggiedad said:


> your dogs health should justify a 2 hour drive or more.


I wont even drive to springs to find a doctor I like, I have a seriously limited income and I can not justify spending $70 or more in gas (we have a SUV) plus time lost from work, plus the vet fee (which might be more expensive than the local vets). So I don't agree with you on this, and as someone else said if my dog is dying or needs a vet right away 2 hours is a very long time to wait when I like my vets office other than the one vet and the fact they disagree with raw feeding. My personal doctor disagrees with my diet also (Paleo) but I still go when I need him.


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## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

Pogo0685 said:


> I wont even drive to springs to find a doctor I like, I have a seriously limited income and I can not justify spending $70 or more in gas (we have a SUV) plus time lost from work, plus the vet fee (which might be more expensive than the local vets). So I don't agree with you on this, and as someone else said if my dog is dying or needs a vet right away 2 hours is a very long time to wait when I like my vets office other than the one vet and the fact they disagree with raw feeding. My personal doctor disagrees with my diet also (Paleo) but I still go when I need him.


The specialists my dogs see are half an hour away from me and my regular vet is 5 minutes. The ER vet is 10 minutes. I would have a hard time driving two hours to see a regular vet. I'm afraid I would put off going just because it would be such a hassle. 

I'm sure I could find a vet's office that didn't have only two vets (one of which I refuse to see) so there are only three days a week I can make an appointment. And i don't see eye to eye with my vet all the time. But it's certainly not worth driving 2 hours to find an office I like better - shoot, I could be in Chicago practically!


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