# Aother Blow to BSL



## thegoodstuff (May 12, 2010)

*Another Blow to BSL*

Nevada Governor signs bill banning dog breed discrimination

Thats *14* states banning BSL. Connecticut is up next - CT legislators slap down pro BSL bill, Governor to sign it Thursday. 

take that! :boxing:


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## SoyMilk (Jun 1, 2013)

BSL does NOT work. I mean honestly, it seems like some of these lawmakers think they can ban everything; we should be "banning" the people who fight dogs and the stupid media that cherry-picks stories; not the sweet, loving, loyal pit bulls.

Lol at the picture by the way XD


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## Dude and Bucks Mamma (May 14, 2011)

What are the other 13 states? 14/50 isn't much but it's a fantastic start.


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## Rvent (Apr 15, 2012)

My son and I went to the capitol to speak on behalf of passing this, I am glad it made it this far :cheer2:


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## thegoodstuff (May 12, 2010)

Dude and Bucks Mamma said:


> What are the other 13 states? 14/50 isn't much but it's a fantastic start.


 Yes, its a good start, the USA started with 13 states :usa:


States that prohibit breed specific legislation:

California, Colorado, Florida, Illinois, Maine, Massachusetts, Minnesota, New Jersey, New York, Nevada, Oklahoma, Pennsylvania, Texas and Washington.












But even in states that prohibit BSL, there have been many repeals at the municipal level. Massachusetts outlawed BSL in August. Now Boston is trying to pass a bill which would create an exemption in the state law prohibiting breed discriminatory laws. The hearing date is tomorrow, June 4.

In light of states outlawing or repealing BSL laws, if you asked legislators in states that are considering passing or have recently passed BSL laws to explain why, I wonder what they would have to say for themselves. I would say that most politician's primary goal is to get reelected. So if enough of their hysterical, ignorant and closed minded constituents howl in favor of BSL, politicians will resist common sense, ignore statistical fact and pass these laws. 
*
"Nothing in the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity"* Martin Luther King


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## catahoulamom (Sep 23, 2010)

Awesome but, as you can see, FL bans BSL but Miami's BSL was voted to stay in place last fall. I hate this stupid place. I go to animal control all the time and even though I know statistically most of the dogs in shelters are pits it still hits me hard walking through and seeing that at least 50-60% of the dogs there are pit bulls. Every.other.dog. there is a pit bull type dog. 

Unfortunately, we have a lot of scum of the earth type human beings here in Miami. And those are the people getting these dogs and breeding them. We need something in place to target them so they aren't able to get their hands on these intact dogs and have 3-4 litters a year. If someone wants to be a responsible AKC Am Staff breeder or whatever, that's a different story, but anyone breeding "pit bulls" in Dade County should be put in jail, IMO. There are too many. If they target the people irresponsibly producing these dogs (rather than responsible owners who have pit bulls as loving family pets!), then we wouldn't be putting down thousands and thousands of dogs a year.


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## thegoodstuff (May 12, 2010)

catahoulamom said:


> Awesome but, as you can see, FL bans BSL but Miami's BSL was voted to stay in place last fall. I hate this stupid place. I go to animal control all the time and even though I know statistically most of the dogs in shelters are pits it still hits me hard walking through and seeing that at least 50-60% of the dogs there are pit bulls. Every.other.dog. there is a pit bull type dog.
> 
> Unfortunately, we have a lot of scum of the earth type human beings here in Miami. And those are the people getting these dogs and breeding them. We need something in place to target them so they aren't able to get their hands on these intact dogs and have 3-4 litters a year. If someone wants to be a responsible AKC Am Staff breeder or whatever, that's a different story, but anyone breeding "pit bulls" in Dade County should be put in jail, IMO. There are too many. If they target the people irresponsibly producing these dogs (rather than responsible owners who have pit bulls as loving family pets!), then we wouldn't be putting down thousands and thousands of dogs a year.


I went to animal control a few weeks ago. It was a big mistake. There were 30 dogs there and only a couple werent Pit Bull 'types' (Im mocking the language used in BSL laws). It was so sad. I had to steel myself before I went in. I did pretty good, the napkin I put in my pocket beforehand stayed there. After I left, I got mad, mad at all the people that cant/wont/dont care about their dogs and treat them as if they were used condoms.

I propose a ban on Pit Bull breeding. If you want a Pit Bull, then go rescue one. Yes, ridiculously impractical and nearly impossible to enforce, but its a nice fantasy. Estimates of the number of Pit Bulls euthanized in the US each year are between 1 million and 2 million. Thats _thousands_ each day. Only 1 in 600 get adopted. That breaks down to less than one fifth of 1%.

I find it to be _overwhelmingly_ sad.


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## kevin bradley (Aug 9, 2009)

Agreed. Pit Bull Breeding should be illegal. 

Infringing on your "rights" America? 

Go to hell for your lack of sense. We have a holocaust going on across America right now.

How anyone could ethically bring another Pit into this world when over a million are euthanized every year is really sad. Really sad.


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## Rvent (Apr 15, 2012)

kevin bradley said:


> Agreed. Pit Bull Breeding should be illegal.
> 
> Infringing on your "rights" America?
> 
> ...


I don't think it should be made illegal, 1. because we know what happens when things are illegal, only criminals do it. 2. I never want the breed to become non-existent. I think there should be a way to stop back yard breeding, and all breeding should be put on hold for a few years to get the over population under control, I feel this way about ALL BREEDING.. sorry if this offends but realistically they are just too many dogs being put down everyday not just Pit bulls (they are just the majority) Then some how only reputable breeders should breed Pit bulls


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## kevin bradley (Aug 9, 2009)

Rvent said:


> I don't think it should be made illegal, 1. because we know what happens when things are illegal, only criminals do it. 2. I never want the breed to become non-existent. I think there should be a way to stop back yard breeding, and all breeding should be put on hold for a few years to get the over population under control, I feel this way about ALL BREEDING.. sorry if this offends but realistically they are just too many dogs being put down everyday not just Pit bulls (they are just the majority) Then some how only reputable breeders should breed Pit bulls


I understand... completely. And it sucks that reputable breeders have to suffer(if my point of view became reality). 

You know, it does suck. Almost every law penalizes the law abiding citizens. Sitting in line at the airport screener sucks for 99.999999% of us. 

I just feel like the Pit epidemic has reached such a level of sadness that something must be done. I just recently went to my local shelter and there were probably 40 dogs.... I'd guess 30 were pits or pit mixes. 

But I could be wrong. Hell, the low lifes of society would probably just move onto another breed. We'll be talking about the Lab crisis in a few years. 

But you know I love ya, R


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## riddick4811 (Nov 2, 2011)

kevin bradley said:


> I understand... completely. And it sucks that reputable breeders have to suffer(if my point of view became reality).
> 
> You know, it does suck. Almost every law penalizes the law abiding citizens. Sitting in line at the airport screener sucks for 99.999999% of us.
> 
> ...


I do not support any law banning our freedoms. It is not good breeders causing the problem. It is BYBs and irresponsible people and laws banning breeding will target good breeders b/c the others are going to continue doing what the already are. Miami shows that. Pit bulls have been banned since 1989, but yet there are hundreds of pit bulls there and being bred. Last week they had a female pit bull picked up with milk bags hanging to the ground. No pups. Probably already sold off way too young. They are illegal to have in that county- yet they are still there. But the more law abiding citizins changed breeds. Dogo, Presa, Cane Corso, Fila, Dogue de Bordeaux, are all over the place down in Miami. 5 Dogos were in Miami Dade Animal Services last month alone. How many Dogos do you see in other areas in shelters in that number? Banning a breed or banning breeding is not going to stop this. Even Miami's laws limiting how many dogs you can have in the city per home has not stopped the inflow of dogs to their shelter.


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## kevin bradley (Aug 9, 2009)

riddick4811 said:


> I do not support any law banning our freedoms. It is not good breeders causing the problem. It is BYBs and irresponsible people and laws banning breeding will target good breeders b/c the others are going to continue doing what the already are. Miami shows that. Pit bulls have been banned since 1989, but yet there are hundreds of pit bulls there and being bred. Last week they had a female pit bull picked up with milk bags hanging to the ground. No pups. Probably already sold off way too young. They are illegal to have in that county- yet they are still there. But the more law abiding citizins changed breeds. Dogo, Presa, Cane Corso, Fila, Dogue de Bordeaux, are all over the place down in Miami. 5 Dogos were in Miami Dade Animal Services last month alone. How many Dogos do you see in other areas in shelters in that number? Banning a breed or banning breeding is not going to stop this. Even Miami's laws limiting how many dogs you can have in the city per home has not stopped the inflow of dogs to their shelter.



Rid, I'm not for any law that lets the criminals get away with what they are doing.

I guess my main objective would be to stop the type of people you mention above.... My goal is certainly not to harrass ethical breeders...though I understand that is always a risk. Hopefully we could find some balance where we put strict requirements on breeding breeds that are already super overpopulated.

If there are reputable breeders of Pits out there, its fine. However, I would like to encourage them to slow down on bringing more Pits into the world and encourage people who come to them to first go to a Shelter. Because even if they AREN'T the cause of the problem, every Pit they adopt out is one that probably dies in a Shelter.


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## riddick4811 (Nov 2, 2011)

kevin bradley said:


> Rid, I'm not for any law that lets the criminals get away with what they are doing.
> 
> I guess my main objective would be to stop the type of people you mention above.... My goal is certainly not to harrass ethical breeders...though I understand that is always a risk. Hopefully we could find some balance where we put strict requirements on breeding breeds that are already super overpopulated.
> 
> If there are reputable breeders of Pits out there, its fine. However, I would like to encourage them to slow down on bringing more Pits into the world and encourage people who come to them to first go to a Shelter. Because even if they AREN'T the cause of the problem, every Pit they adopt out is one that probably dies in a Shelter.



But you will never stop them as long as people buy the dogs. Just like drugs, prostitution and all the other things that are illegal but continue b/c people still want it and pay for it. Supply and Demand. People going to good breeders for dogs do so b/c they want a dog that has been health tested, from parents with good temperaments and may want to do something competitive with the dog or show. Or just want a good sound dog. Not that you can't do that with many rescue dogs, but you have a higher chance going to a good breeder. 

Like my Greyhound pup, I adopted him b/c he was from an "oops" litter from 2 dogs who just got together at the kennel. He dropped dead at 10 months from a hereditary heart defect. I would like to never go through that again if I can help it so I would rather choose to purchase a puppy from health tested parents that are not carriers of the disease. It is not a guarantee, but still should lesson the chance of that happening again. 

My foster pit bull gets dropped off tomorrow night with the lady transporting her to North Carolina and her adopter will be picking her up Friday evening and taking her back home to Virginia. She is a wonderful dog, but not the right dog for every home. We turned down many homes that applied for her. I do understand the issue with pit bulls and I see it every day in shelters around me. My own shelter will not even adopt them out. They either go to rescue or they kill them. But I still feel laws are the not the way to go about. Education of the consumer who is buying them from BYBs are the only way you are going to put a dent in the problem. If people stop buying them, they will stop breeding them. Free spay/neuter for pit bulls and pit bull mixes is another thing I support. While I feel you shouldn't have a dog if you can't at least afford spay/neuter, I think with the pit bull issue- it is a good thing. We do not need more laws telling us how to live our lives and what we can or can not do with our pets.


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## bridget246 (Oct 26, 2011)

If pit bulls were ever banned from breeding and somehow that ban was actually enforced in a way that criminals weren't able to get away with it all the fighters would do is pick a different dog breed and overbreed those ones. Banning breeding doesn't solve the problem. Making standards for breeders to follow would be hard since I'm sure good ones and bad ones would find ways to meet the standard as well as some good ones before left out(refusing to vaccine? wrong food? etc). 

I purpose that each dog should be MC back to their breeder. If the dogs are lost, neglected, removed from their owners then the breeder should be responsible about making sure those dogs are taking care of. This would include the cost of food, vet fees, fixed fees, home and shelter fees, and even training fees until these dogs can find a home. If they don't like it taking the dog back would always be an option. This might not be the best way of doing things but I feel that breeders shouldn't be allowed to just sell the a dog to just anyone, pocket a bunch of money and walk away. This might make the breeder ask more questions to the buyers since the breeders are taking higher risk. Buyers who successfully answer those questions might also question the breeders ethics and if they aren't good they could be stuck with those dogs with the possibility of facing pentilies if the dogs aren't taking care of. These are things a lot of good breeders already do so for them nothing changes.


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## Dude and Bucks Mamma (May 14, 2011)

My stance on everything regarding dog population control is this: 

If everyone considering adding a dog to their family would either buy a dog from a reputable breeder or adopt we could nearly eliminate this whole problem. If people would choose one of those things there would be no one buying from BYBs and puppy mills. The BYBs would have no market to sell to so breeding the way they do would make them no money and would become useless and puppy mills would go out of business.


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## thegoodstuff (May 12, 2010)

riddick4811 said:


> But you will never stop them as long as people buy the dogs. Just like drugs, prostitution and all the other things that are illegal but continue b/c people still want it and pay for it. Supply and Demand. People going to good breeders for dogs do so b/c they want a dog that has been health tested, from parents with good temperaments and may want to do something competitive with the dog or show. Or just want a good sound dog. Not that you can't do that with many rescue dogs, but you have a higher chance going to a good breeder.
> 
> Like my Greyhound pup, I adopted him b/c he was from an "oops" litter from 2 dogs who just got together at the kennel. He dropped dead at 10 months from a hereditary heart defect. I would like to never go through that again if I can help it so I would rather choose to purchase a puppy from health tested parents that are not carriers of the disease. It is not a guarantee, but still should lesson the chance of that happening again.
> 
> My foster pit bull gets dropped off tomorrow night with the lady transporting her to North Carolina and her adopter will be picking her up Friday evening and taking her back home to Virginia. She is a wonderful dog, but not the right dog for every home. We turned down many homes that applied for her. I do understand the issue with pit bulls and I see it every day in shelters around me. My own shelter will not even adopt them out. They either go to rescue or they kill them. But I still feel laws are the not the way to go about. Education of the consumer who is buying them from BYBs are the only way you are going to put a dent in the problem. If people stop buying them, they will stop breeding them. Free spay/neuter for pit bulls and pit bull mixes is another thing I support. While I feel you shouldn't have a dog if you can't at least afford spay/neuter, I think with the pit bull issue- it is a good thing. We do not need more laws telling us how to live our lives and what we can or can not do with our pets.


Excuse me but I disafreakingree. Desperate times call for desperate measures. Would it work overnight? No. Are there less drugs and prostitution on the street beacuse it is illegal? I'll go with yes. People will always find what ever it is they want, you cant wipe it out. The idea is to make it as difficult as possible. *3000-6000 dogs killed every day*. Hello? NO MORE PUPPIES. I dont care who that inconveniences or who's business that hurts. Breed Labradoodles instead. Would licensing and certifying heroin dealers, making them "legitimate", reduce the amount of misery heroin ends up causing? Someday it may be legal, but NFW now. Does this look like they are selling pets?

As Ridley said, nuke it from orbit, its the only way to be sure. A Scorched earth policy. Extreme? Yes. Overkill? Maybe. Effective? Do the math. Less puppies = less adult dogs. Less adult dogs = _less mass murder_. Would that put more restrictions on our freedoms? Thats one way to look at it. But like Kevin said, its a holocaust.


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## kevin bradley (Aug 9, 2009)

I struggle with this... the notion that even Ethical breeders can't be part of the solution. I JUST had a conversation with a girl who is trying to convince her parents to go to a shelter as opposed to a breeder(assuming an "ethical" breeder). She is VERY close to getting them to do so(go to a shelter). 

So ethical or BYB, this is one example where it doesn't matter...ethical or not, we have a real opportunity to get these people to save the life of a dog. 

I know many won't agree, some will. Whatever. I just cannot, for the LIFE of me...imagine sitting at home and breeding Pits with what is going on in the world, in the shelters today. MY FAULT or not.


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## Herzo (Feb 5, 2011)

I really have no idea how to make things better and I do strongly agree that something needs to be done. I don't like any law that stomps on our freedoms either however I do understand something needs to be done.

Goodness the things that are going on in this world today are frightening. I find out just this morning that my very own Government is spying on my phone calls!!!!!

But if we are going to go into stomping on people's rights perhaps it should start with for one thing, not paying people to have children. Perhaps one should have to take a test to have children. Because people are the problem and some need weeded out.

Perhaps starting there we can get people with more brain power, I don't really know where to start. I will say that we don't have as big of a Pit Bull problem around here as i think many of you do. We have more herding dogs and of course Labs.


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## riddick4811 (Nov 2, 2011)

thegoodstuff said:


> Excuse me but I disafreakingree. Desperate times call for desperate measures. Would it work overnight? No. Are there less drugs and prostitution on the street beacuse it is illegal? I'll go with yes. People will always find what ever it is they want, you cant wipe it out. The idea is to make it as difficult as possible. *3000-6000 dogs killed every day*. Hello? NO MORE PUPPIES. I dont care who that inconveniences or who's business that hurts. Breed Labradoodles instead. Would licensing and certifying heroin dealers, making them "legitimate", reduce the amount of misery heroin ends up causing? Someday it may be legal, but NFW now. Does this look like they are selling pets?
> 
> As Ridley said, nuke it from orbit, its the only way to be sure. A Scorched earth policy. Extreme? Yes. Overkill? Maybe. Effective? Do the math. Less puppies = less adult dogs. Less adult dogs = _less mass murder_. Would that put more restrictions on our freedoms? Thats one way to look at it. But like Kevin said, its a holocaust.


You sound like PETA (who I despise). So you want pit bulls wiped off the face of the earth? Because that is basically what you are saying. If you ban breeding, eventually in 10 yrs or so, they will become extinct. And the BYBs will just pick up with another breed and continue on. Then you will want to ban breeding of that breed and they become extinct and then the next breed and so on and so forth. Banning breeding will NEVER be the answer unless you goal is total elimination of the breed which unfortunately that is what it sounds like you want.


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## kevin bradley (Aug 9, 2009)

So what would you do, Rid?


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## thegoodstuff (May 12, 2010)

Herzo said:


> I really have no idea how to make things better and I do strongly agree that something needs to be done. I don't like any law that stomps on our freedoms either however I do understand something needs to be done.


Seriously discussing what I suggested is kind of a waste of everyone's time because it is just theoretical, like string theory. That said, and "reputable breeders" aside, whose freedoms would be stomped on besides BYBs? In this hypothetical scenario, the "reputable breeder" component would have to be dealt with as a separate issue.




riddick4811 said:


> You sound like PETA (who I despise). So you want pit bulls wiped off the face of the earth? Because that is basically what you are saying. If you ban breeding, eventually in 10 yrs or so, they will become extinct. And the BYBs will just pick up with another breed and continue on. Then you will want to ban breeding of that breed and they become extinct and then the next breed and so on and so forth. Banning breeding will NEVER be the answer unless you goal is total elimination of the breed which unfortunately that is what it sounds like you want.


Surely you jest. Otherwise, I find it difficult to believe you actually think I want Pit Bulls "wiped off the face of the earth". With all due respect, your question is irrational. Read the post I started this thread with. Does that sound like someone who wants Pit Bulls wiped off the face of the earth? Look at my dogs. Is there a clue there? Read any of my posts where Pit Bulls are the subject. I am astonished any reasonable person could come to that conclusion. At this point, wanting to give you the benefit of the doubt, I understand how emotions can effect one's reactions. 

Comparing me to PETA? As the saying goes, "thems fightin words". I say that without humor. That really is over the top. I make no apologies here, that is simply absurd. Coincidentally, last night I watched the "Penn & Teller: Bullshit!" episode on PETA (2004). They did a _very_ convincing job of equating PETA to the Nazis. I knew PETA was an organization of completely off the wall, mindless zealots, but not as bad as P&T, backed up by fact after fact as they always are, revealed them to be. 

And 10 years is a number I had in mind. Not to eradicate Pit Bulls but how long it might take to get the Pit Bull population back 'on the chart'/out of the red zone/under control/safe from the threat of continued death camp persecution. That you think my goal is "total elimination of the breed" is, quite frankly, stark raving mad. 


_____________________________________________________________________________________________________

*The Whole Point*

BTW, Connecticut Governor Malloy signed HB 6311 making CT the 15th state to outlaw breed discrimination.

thanks R!


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## riddick4811 (Nov 2, 2011)

kevin bradley said:


> So what would you do, Rid?


What I'm doing now. Foster pit bulls, spay and neuter non registered, non proven (show/work), non health tested pit bulls who do not need to add to the population. Transport pit bulls from shelters to foster homes. Educated owners. Help people find resources to get their pit bulls spayed/neutered. There are many out there, but not enough people know about them. 

Just dropped my pit bull foster off with transport. She will be going to Virginia in the morning to her forever home. One at a time. That is all you can do, just one at a time. 

THE STARFISH POEM

Once upon a time there was a wise man

who used to go to the ocean

to do his writing.

He had a habit of walking

on the beach

before he began his work.

One day he was walking along

the shore.

As he looked down the beach,

he saw a human

figure moving like a dancer.

He smiled to himself to think

of someone who would

dance to the day.

So he began to walk faster

to catch up.

As he got closer, he saw

that it was a young man

and the young man wasn't dancing,

but instead he was reaching

down to the shore,

picking up something

and very gently throwing it

into the ocean.

As he got closer he called out,

"Good morning! What are you doing?"

The young man paused,

looked up and replied,

"Throwing starfish in the ocean."

"I guess I should have asked,

why are you throwing starfish in the ocean?"

"The sun is up and the tide is going out.

And if I don't throw them in they'll die."

"But, young man, don't you realize that

there are miles and miles of beach

and starfish all along it.

You can't possibly make a difference!"

The young man listened politely.

Then bent down, picked up another starfish

and threw it into the sea,

past the breaking waves and said-

"It made a difference for that one."


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## NewfieAussie (Feb 19, 2013)

I have my own take on this. I was an operating room nurse for 30 years. I can't count the number of children, usually 5-6 yr old girls that had terrible dog bite attack injuries. They were almost always to the neck, face and scalp. Some died, some disfigured for life and some repaired so it they looked good after leaving the OR. 

I would say about 80% were from pit bulls, 5% from Rotweillers, 5% from dobermans, 5% from german shepherds, the last 5% from various breeds. This is a big problem and the ones most affected are small kids out running and playing. Something snaps in certain dogs brains and they see the small children as running prey.

I am for banning pit bulls from cities and towns.

I can not imagine someone someone wanting to own a breed that had an increased possibility to attack and disfigure a child at play.


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## riddick4811 (Nov 2, 2011)

NewfieAussie said:


> I have my own take on this. I was an operating room nurse for 30 years. I can't count the number of children, usually 5-6 yr old girls that had terrible dog bite attack injuries. They were almost always to the neck, face and scalp. Some died, some disfigured for life and some repaired so it they looked good after leaving the OR.
> 
> I would say about 80% were from pit bulls, 5% from Rotweillers, 5% from dobermans, 5% from german shepherds, the last 5% from various breeds. This is a big problem and the ones most affected are small kids out running and playing. Something snaps in certain dogs brains and they see the small children as running prey.
> 
> ...


Been around Pit bulls, Dobes and Rotties my entire life, from birth until now. And not just one or two either. My Dad hog hunted and had packs dogs, most all catch dogs were pit bulls. Plus we had Dobes and Rotties and I fostered dozens of Dobes for Dobe rescue over the years, had numerous friends and family with all breeds as well plus foster pit bulls. My heartdog a Doberman who died a few years ago was the most truthworthy dog that has ever walked the planet and everyone who met him completely changed their views on Dobes. IMO you would be hard pressed to find 3 better breeds and if I were to ever have a child, a pit bull would be my absolute first choice for a dog to have around them.


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## lauren43 (Feb 6, 2011)

Dude and Bucks Mamma said:


> What are the other 13 states? 14/50 isn't much but it's a fantastic start.


But not all States have any BSL laws in effect, correct?


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## lauren43 (Feb 6, 2011)

NewfieAussie said:


> I have my own take on this. I was an operating room nurse for 30 years. I can't count the number of children, usually 5-6 yr old girls that had terrible dog bite attack injuries. They were almost always to the neck, face and scalp. Some died, some disfigured for life and some repaired so it they looked good after leaving the OR.
> 
> I would say about 80% were from pit bulls, 5% from Rotweillers, 5% from dobermans, 5% from german shepherds, the last 5% from various breeds. This is a big problem and the ones most affected are small kids out running and playing. Something snaps in certain dogs brains and they see the small children as running prey.
> 
> ...


Are you serious???? It's not a breed of dog that is the issue. Just because someone claims a "pit bull" attacked their child does not mean that an actual pit did the attacking. That's bull, I don't believe 80% for one single minute. Ppl like you with no experience with the breed are the problem and are the reason why these laws even exist. Shame on you.


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## lauren43 (Feb 6, 2011)

Man I really shouldn't have looked at this thread I am so angry. Oh and no dog attacks unprovoked and/or without warning.


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## bridget246 (Oct 26, 2011)

NewfieAussie said:


> I have my own take on this. I was an operating room nurse for 30 years. I can't count the number of children, usually 5-6 yr old girls that had terrible dog bite attack injuries. They were almost always to the neck, face and scalp. Some died, some disfigured for life and some repaired so it they looked good after leaving the OR.
> 
> I would say about 80% were from pit bulls, 5% from Rotweillers, 5% from dobermans, 5% from german shepherds, the last 5% from various breeds. This is a big problem and the ones most affected are small kids out running and playing. Something snaps in certain dogs brains and they see the small children as running prey.
> 
> ...


I am all for looking at why the kids are being left alone with these dogs regardless of their breed. I find it is often the case that the dog gets no training over what is expected of them and the kids get no training on to how to properly handle a dog when playing. My daughter is only 1 and she knows a lot of this already. It really isn't rocket science nor does it have to do with the breed unless we are counting the strength of the bite. I can't even count the number of kids I know with stitches from yorkshire terriers. Only reason I hear to the cause of this is that they believe it is a small dog and therefore should be safe with kids...



lauren43 said:


> Are you serious???? It's not a breed of dog that is the issue. Just because someone claims a "pit bull" attack their child does not mean that an actual pit did the attacking. That's bull, I don't believe 80% for one single minute. Ppl like you with no experience with the breed are the problem and are the reason why these laws even exist. Shame on you.


Most of the dog attacks that happen around here aren't really dog attacks but warnings that are misread to be attacks. A dog jumping a fence and grabbing a running kids clothing is written down as an attack even though the dog meant no harm at all and was only playing. Or, my personal favorite, the warning snap that people often mistake as biting. In both cases, all it means is that the dog needs to be trained(owners need training too) over what behaviors are expected of it and that fence needs to be higher. We do have a few bad dog bites that are cause for some serious medical concern but these are very limited and far between(I follow pet related police reports). What I really find upsetting is now that it has warmed up I see a number of dogs loose outside to roam. These dogs know where their home is. They go there when they feel threaten. The owners must feel safe about allowing their dogs to roam like this.


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## Dude and Bucks Mamma (May 14, 2011)

NewfieAussie said:


> I have my own take on this. I was an operating room nurse for 30 years. I can't count the number of children, usually 5-6 yr old girls that had terrible dog bite attack injuries. They were almost always to the neck, face and scalp. Some died, some disfigured for life and some repaired so it they looked good after leaving the OR.
> 
> I would say about 80% were from pit bulls, 5% from Rotweillers, 5% from dobermans, 5% from german shepherds, the last 5% from various breeds. This is a big problem and the ones most affected are small kids out running and playing. Something snaps in certain dogs brains and they see the small children as running prey.
> 
> ...


You're joking, right? I have several things to say about this:

1)I grew up with two Dobermans and a Rottweiler as my playmates after school. These were dogs from reputable breeders who had been trained and socialized. Very trustworthy dogs who were very gentle with me. I played "dog show" with them and they happily played along with everything I wanted to do and were just fantastic.

2)How do you know the breeds? Did the dog come in with every patient so you could examine it and how could you be sure? I know many dogs that look like "pit bulls" but have no bully breed in them. Many people will see a dog that MIGHT have some "pit bull" in it and assume it does. I have witnessed people ignorance firsthand with one of my own dogs. I have had numerous people point at my HAIRLESS XOLOITZCUINTLI and ask if he is a "pit bull". The dog in my signature. People can't identify breeds to save their lives.

3)I have worked with dogs my entire life including as a bather at a grooming salon. I worked with all sorts of breeds and I was the person who handled the large dogs (because, for some reason, they chose to hire someone afraid of large dogs). I bathed Dobermans, Rottweilers, German Shepherds, "pit bulls", Dogue de Bordeaux, Great Danes, etc. The dogs I was snapped/growled at by? Miniature Pinschers, Miniature Schnauzers, a Pomeranian who actually got me, countless Labradors, Basset Hounds, one Brittany, a Brittany mix and more. NEVER any of the "dangerous breeds. Many of the dogs that come in are unruly and have NO training behind them, unfortunately.

4)How many of these children were left with these dogs unattended? Children that young should not be left alone with dogs, no matter how big or small. Children are often mean to dogs without knowing that their actions might irritate or even hurt the dog. Children are often too rough with the dog and, because children do not known how to read a dog's body language, perhaps they could not see the warning signs the dogs were giving to them before they finally bit the child. 

5)Where did these dogs come from? Did these dogs come from reputable breeders? If they came from reputable breeders then they are going to be stable dogs who aren't going to "just snap". An unstable dog of ANY breed can "just snap" because they weren't stable to begin with. Dalmatians have/used to have tons of issues in that area and no is out to crucify Dals. Dals were one of the top biters in the past but everyone thinks of Dals fondly. My Dal was from an EXCELLENT breeder and was perfectly stable. A "pit bull" from a crappy BYB is definitely going to be more of a risk than a "pit bull" from a reputable breeder because the BYB isn't going to be doing health tests and probably got THEIR dog from another BYB who isn't health testing. 

6)"Pit bulls" from a reputable breeder isn't going to be any more likely to attack a child at play than a well bred Golden Retriever. Pit bulls, while dog aggression can be an issue in some, are NOT supposed to be human aggressive. APBTs and other bull breeds used to be known as "nanny dogs" before they were demonized because they love children. 

It all comes down to where you get your dog from (genetics) and how you raise it(environment). If you get a dog from someone who is raising unstable dogs then you are putting your family at risk, sure. But if you are smart enough to go to a reputable breeder who knows what they are doing and breeds suitable family dogs then you are making a great decision. I have a standard Xoloitzcuintli. Xolos are known for being aloof with strangers and adults often will not let people outside of family touch them. I researched and researched and decided on a great breeder who breeds more sociable Xolos (genetics) and I do everything I can to socialize him with all kinds of people like kids, adults, people with walkers and wheelchairs, light skinned people, dark skinned people, etc. (environment). As a result, I have a dog who is not startled by much (still a baby and encountering new things all the time) and is willing to greet anyone he meets with happiness. THis is true of any breed. If you choose the right breeder and you socialize and train your dog right you aren't going to have a dog that "just snaps" because you were careful about both genetics and environment.


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## meggels (May 30, 2010)

The general public and the media are notoriously bad at correctly identifying dogs, and that has now stretched into anything pretty much being a pit bull.

I've had a few people recently ask me if Murphy is a pit bull puppy lol. That one just leaves me shaking my head...


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## kevin bradley (Aug 9, 2009)

I understand what NFA said and seeing that type of thing every day in an emergency room would certainly leave an imprint on anyone.

But the stuff that bully breeds/pits are facing every day in our cities is out of control. There is no breed that wouldn't have issues when subjected to what they face every day. Almost EVERY large city in Michigan faces dog fighting and brutal treatment of pits. Don't believe me?... go out to Petfinder and punch up Pit bull or APBT for any Michigan city(Kalamazoo, Detroit, Saginaw, Battle Creek, Grand Rapids, etc...) and see the endless list of Dogs. Then x it by 5 to find the ones they wouldn't even try to adopt out. I said it was a holocaust... Its probably worse. 

The problem, as I see it is that Pits are such remarkably gifted strong Dogs that WHEN someone messes them up, they have the natural ability to cause more problems than most other breeds. Even Rottweilers I've been around who I think are really big, strong Dogs... don't come close to what I've seen Pits do. Their strength, speed, agility is just really amazing. In the right hands, they are just an amazing breed. I've got a close friend with a Pit and the things he does in the air just boggle my mind. He can jump up in the air and dam near do this type of flip and turn his body around in some concocted position. I've seen him jump about 6 feet in the air with ease(at my eye level and I'm about 6 foot). 


Rid, I appreciate what you do with Pits/Bully's. You opened my eyes with your point of view, you really did. I'd like to think we can educate people and turn this thing around. But I'm skeptical. But you inspired me. I gotta do more.


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## riddick4811 (Nov 2, 2011)

kevin bradley said:


> I understand what NFA said and seeing that type of thing every day in an emergency room would certainly leave an imprint on anyone.
> 
> But the stuff that bully breeds/pits are facing every day in our cities is out of control. There is no breed that wouldn't have issues when subjected to what they face every day. Almost EVERY large city in Michigan faces dog fighting and brutal treatment of pits. Don't believe me?... go out to Petfinder and punch up Pit bull or APBT for any Michigan city(Kalamazoo, Detroit, Saginaw, Battle Creek, Grand Rapids, etc...) and see the endless list of Dogs. Then x it by 5 to find the ones they wouldn't even try to adopt out. I said it was a holocaust... Its probably worse.
> 
> ...



Pit bulls are very athletic and great jumpers. Mira my foster girl would jump high enough to kick me in the face with her back feet and I'm 6ft tall. She could flip, leap and bound like she had no bones! She had a high toy drive and was a blast to play with. Supersmart. I swear I think out of all the dogs I've owned/fostered, she ranked as probably the most intelligent. She had superior problem solving skills to all my other dogs. She was awesome. But too many people do not understand pit bulls and the fact that dog aggression is part of the breed. Dog fighting whether you like it, hate it or indifferent towards it, it is there history and you need to understand it. Nothing you do is going to change the past. And being a dog aggressive breeds like many other bull and terrier type dogs, you need to be prepared for dog aggression to pop up at some point. These are not dogs for people who go to dog parks or want to leave them all loose together with bones on the floor. You have to use a little common sense which sadly seems to be lacking from way too many people. 

In the right home, these dogs are awesome, but not every home is right for them and they shouldn't be pushed onto people who are not prepared to deal with them just b/c they feel for their plight. And as far as the pit bull attacks. There are probably as many pit bulls out there as all other breeds combined or as least close to it. For everyone that attacks someone there are 100,000 plus that haven't done anything. (numbers are not accurate, just made up to illustrate my point).


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## catahoulamom (Sep 23, 2010)

NewfieAussie said:


> I am for banning pit bulls from cities and towns.
> 
> I can not imagine someone someone wanting to own a breed that had an increased possibility to attack and disfigure a child at play.


I was "disfigured" by a Lhasa apso when I was 5. The dog tore off my bottom lip. I wish I was exaggerating. 

After working professionally with dogs the past 4 years, the only dogs I have been bit by are schnauzers, daschunds, chihuahuas, yorkies, a jack russel, and a lab/Doberman mix. (all of those bites were my fault - I either ignored or didnt see a warning the dog was giving me). 

I would never, EVER wish for responsible owners of those breeds to have their dogs ripped away from their families just because I had a bad expierence with the dog of the same breed.


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## starturtle (Jul 12, 2012)

I realize everyone has a different opinion of how to fix the BSL and Pit Bull "issue". Personally I think nothing will change without educating ignorance and that is going to take A LOT of time. I live in Birmingham, AL and i was sitting in a co-workers office today talking about our dogs. Everyone in my office knows I foster and always have several dogs at my house. The conversation turned into talking about fixing dogs. He has two non bully breed dogs, his male is fixed but his female isn't. She isn't because his daughter loves puppies and he may want to breed her one day. My response was go to the shelter and adopt a puppy if that is what she wants. His reply was I am not going to keep them, I will just take them to the local grocery store parking lot and sell them or give them away. After that I went into my speech about over population and dog fighting rings which went nowhere.

This is not a low life scum who thinks this way. He is a church going, law abiding citizen. This is typical for where I live. Until this mind set is changed the problem will not go away. There is a great documentary called Roots of Rescue. It doesn't get into BSL, but it does talk about peoples mindsets in this state. Until people start thinking like many of us think this problem will exist.


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## Savage Destiny (Mar 16, 2011)

NewfieAussie said:


> I have my own take on this. I was an operating room nurse for 30 years. I can't count the number of children, usually 5-6 yr old girls that had terrible dog bite attack injuries. They were almost always to the neck, face and scalp. Some died, some disfigured for life and some repaired so it they looked good after leaving the OR.
> 
> I would say about 80% were from pit bulls, 5% from Rotweillers, 5% from dobermans, 5% from german shepherds, the last 5% from various breeds. This is a big problem and the ones most affected are small kids out running and playing. Something snaps in certain dogs brains and they see the small children as running prey.
> 
> ...


And how many of these do you KNOW were from Pit Bulls? The CDC even says not to trust bite statistics like the ones you're pulling out of your butt because people are not capable of identifying breeds.

I had my nose nearly removed from my face when I was three by my family's Siberian Husky. The only reason it was not worse than it already became was because my mom was literally right there to pull her off me. I've also had my hand bitten in multiple places down to bone by a Sibe while doing a nail trim. I have probable nerve damage in my right arm from a GSD who bit me not long ago over a nail trim as well. Should we ban these breeds as well? Heck one of the SCARIEST dogs I have ever met was a Newfie/Golden mix. He full-on went in for the kill on my co-worker when she tried to coax him into the tub. He would have mauled her had I not been there to throw a towel over him and yank him back, and we managed to herd his vicious, horrible self behind a gate. A Newfie is a HECK of a lot more dangerous than a Pit Bull if they decide to "snap", as you so quaintly put it. 

Personally I can't imagine wanting to own a breed that requires a drool rag, but we each have our own preferences.

You can pry my Pit Bull out of my cold, dead hands. She is an EXCELLENT dog. She's obedience trained, does agility, is about to become involved in dock diving. My vet literally offers to take her every time we see him. She has had cancerous tumors removed WHILE AWAKE with a local anesthetic because the power was out, and my vet did it because he knew she would be perfect. Can you say the same things for your hair beast? 

I've worked with dogs for a decade. I am much more cautious with a strange Newfie than a strange Pit Bull. A Newfie is WAY more likely to bite over something it doesn't like than a Pit Bull. Bull breeds don't have an "increased possibility to attack". The only people who think so are morons who buy into media hysteria.


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## Celt (Dec 27, 2010)

Just a personal story, may not be relevant at all but....this happened a while ago, I was at the dogpark on the small dog side. The big dog side had at least 8 pit bulls/PB mixes, a couple of bulldogs and a golden. All just sort of running around more or less just hanging out. A woman was dragged into the park by a large shepherd as soon as it was let loose, it charged across the park and attacked one of the bulldogs. The people all rushed over, yelling, dragged the shepherd off the bulldog. Well, the other dogs just kind of froze, then the shepherd broke away and attacked again. Finally, the shepherd was leashed, the bull dog (who tried to back off, rather than fight) was laying on the ground (no serious injuries, mostly just overheated), and then the pitbulls all went running towards the bulldog. Then proceeded to whine, lick or nuzzle him, almost as if checking he was alright. You'd think in this kind of situation that the "bully" breeds would have made the situation worse or been the instigators but they were the calmest (even over the people) there.So, no, I don't think bully breeds are more dangerous than other breeds. True, pitbull attack seem more violent (at least all the ones reported on) but one of the worse attacks, here, was by a chained rottie mix. Large, aggressive dogs are going to cause worse injuries than smaller dogs (which, ime, are more likely to bite "annoying" children), simply due to size.


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## Rvent (Apr 15, 2012)

Back to OP.... I for one am glad the government is starting to get their heads out of their butts and realize BSL DOES NOT WORK!!!!
As far as the banning Pit Bull breeding thing, that's not the answer either.... I am not sure why any breeder wants to bring more puppies into a world where there are more dogs than owners or fosters, most of all any reputable Pit Bull breeder, if you love the breed enough you should not want to add to their plight, realistically even a dog who comes form a reputable breeder has the potential to end up in a shelter on the euthanasia list.

As far as NFA comments I am sorry but BS there is no way that 80% of those cases where from a Pit Bull. Pit Bulls have not been called a nanny dog for a half a century or more because they attack children. I trust my 3 Pit Bulls with my 3 grandchildren 100% let me tell you my 3 year old grandson is very rough (I worry more about him hurting my dog than visa versa)

there have been many well documented article regarding how Pit Bulls surpass most dogs in their temperament tests.
I am also fully aware that some can be DA but so are many breeds of dog. its should be judged individually, just like people there are a lot of rotten human beings in this world, does not mean all human Beings are rotten (however I do like dogs better) 

I agree with Savage the only way someone will ever be able to take my Pit Bulls is over my dead body!!!


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## meggels (May 30, 2010)

From American Temperament Test Society

First number is the number tested, then how many passed, how many failed, and the percentage that passed.


AMERICAN PIT BULL TERRIER	870	755	115	86.8%
NEWFOUNDLAND 176	154	22	87.5%
CHIHUAHUA 43	30	13	69.8%
DACHSHUND (SMOOTH) 48	33	15	68.8%
YORKSHIRE TERRIER 41	34	7	82.9%
LHASA APSO 27	19	8	70.4%
SHIH TZU 45	35	10	77.8%
FRENCH BULLDOG 42	40	2	95.2%


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## lauren43 (Feb 6, 2011)

meggels said:


> From American Temperament Test Society
> 
> First number is the number tested, then how many passed, how many failed, and the percentage that passed.
> 
> ...


The shear amount of pits tested makes these results impressive!


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## meggels (May 30, 2010)

And going off the results, we should really be banning those damn chi's and doxies


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## Savage Destiny (Mar 16, 2011)

lauren43 said:


> The shear amount of pits tested makes these results impressive!


More bully people do the ATT than anyone else because we constantly have to prove our dogs aren't scary. It's sad, really.



meggels said:


> And going off the results, we should really be banning those damn chi's and doxies


I have to admit I feel a very small tingle of dread whenever a new Dachshund walks in and the owner asks for a nail trim. :lol:


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## meggels (May 30, 2010)

starturtle said:


> I don't know I think there might be some bias in these results. Frenchies 95%. :wink:



How is there bias in the results? I merely copy and pasted what they are lol.


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## starturtle (Jul 12, 2012)

meggels said:


> From American Temperament Test Society
> 
> First number is the number tested, then how many passed, how many failed, and the percentage that passed.
> 
> ...


I don't know I think there might be some bias in these results. Frenchies 95%. :wink:


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## meggels (May 30, 2010)

starturtle said:


> I don't know I think there might be some bias in these results. Frenchies 95%. :wink:


See above...

"How is there bias in the results? I merely copy and pasted what they are lol."


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## Herzo (Feb 5, 2011)

meggels said:


> See above...
> 
> "How is there bias in the results? I merely copy and pasted what they are lol."


Meg I think the wink means she is kidding you.


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## meggels (May 30, 2010)

Herzo said:


> Meg I think the wink means she is kidding you.


oops lol


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## starturtle (Jul 12, 2012)

I was joking. I almosted added J/K. Next time I will. I don't know if my post doubled or what because it looked like it showed up twice.


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