# Question on ash among different brands



## Jacksons Mom (Jun 13, 2010)

I have a question.

As I still have a lot to learn about dog nutrition, but of course just want what's best for my dog, like everybody else.

From some recent postings, I've learned of ash content/levels in dog food and how it's often telling as to how much meat is actually in the food, quality of meat, etc.

I've also seen a few posts about why products like Dr. Tims and Annamaet are superior to foods like Orijen and Acana. But I was just taking a peek at some Orijen formulas and the ash levels are at 7.5%. Very similar to lots of the formulas by Dr. Tims and Annamaet (the grain-frees). I also do not see the inclusion of pea protein in any of their foods, or anything that is telling to me where the protein content would be upped because of it. Is the only reason one would consider some of those foods better than Orijen/Acana because of where the food is made, and who is producing it? 

I'm just honestly curious, because I'm just trying to figure things out.


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## monster'sdad (Jul 29, 2012)

I know Orijen has ash of 7.5% on the label but there is just more to making a great food than that. From a safety standpoint, low ash is important, but its doesn't make the food great automatically. The substantial background of Dr. Tim and Robert Downey and the people at Purina and Eukanuba and a few other companies just translates into a better a food. That is my experience with my dogs and the dogs of friends.

Because of Champion's other claims and generally the way it markets suggests to me that 7.5% ash probably is not accurate.

How can they continue to make this "regional Canadian ingredient claim" when the most important part of the food comes from Kentucky?


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## Jacksons Mom (Jun 13, 2010)

monster'sdad said:


> I know Orijen has ash of 7.5% on the label but there is just more to making a great food than that. From a safety standpoint, low ash is important, but its doesn't make the food great automatically. The substantial background of Dr. Tim and Robert Downey and the people at Purina and Eukanuba and a few other companies just translates into a better a food. That is my experience with my dogs and the dogs of friends.
> 
> Because of Champion's other claims and generally the way it markets suggests to me that 7.5% ash probably is not accurate.
> 
> How can they continue to make this "regional Canadian ingredient claim" when the most important part of the food comes from Kentucky?


I'm just confused as to how it could not be accurate? It says "max 7.5" on all of their Orijen formulas, even their read meat one. The fish one was 7% max. That's not something you can really lie about, is it? I mean you can't just make up guaranteed analysis', right? I appreciate your knowledge, that's why I'm asking you, because you know more than I do. I was just confused because I almost expected to see a much higher ash, with the way it's brought up a lot now on judging a food. So it surprised to see it pretty low.

Purina Pro Plan also just made a new grain-free formula that is using the ingredients you often say bump up protein, etc. 

Purina GF:
Chicken, canola meal, cassava root flour, chicken meal (natural source of glucosamine), *pea starch*, animal fat preserved with mixed-tocopherols (form of Vitamin E), fish meal (natural source of glucosamine), dried egg product, *pea fiber,* dried beet pulp, *pea protein*, natural flavor, fish oil, salt, calcium phosphate, potassium chloride, L-Lysine monohydrochloride, zinc proteinate, Vitamin E supplement, choline chloride, DL-Methionine, manganese proteinate, calcium carbonate, ferrous sulfate, L-ascorbyl-2-polyphosphate (source of Vitamin C), copper proteinate, niacin, Vitamin A supplement, calcium pantothenate, thiamine mononitrate, riboflavin supplement, Vitamin B-12 supplement, pyridoxine hydrochloride, calcium iodate, folic acid, Vitamin D-3 supplement, biotin, menadione sodium bisulfite complex (source of Vitamin K activity), sodium selenite.

Crude Protein (Min) 26.0%
Crude Fat (Min) 16.0%
Crude Fiber (Max) 7.5%
Moisture (Max) 12.0%
Linoleic Acid (Min) 1.1%
Calcium (Ca) (Min) 1.0%
Phosphorus (P) (Min) 0.8%
Zinc (Zn) (Min) 200 mg/kg
Vitamin A (Min) 15,000 IU/kg
Vitamin E (Min) 460 IU/kg
Ascorbic Acid* (Min) 70 mg/kg
Glucosamine* (Min) 450 ppm
Omega-3 Fatty Acids* (Min) 0.4%
Omega-6 Fatty Acids* (Min) 1.2%
A-4464


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## monster'sdad (Jul 29, 2012)

Jacksons Mom said:


> I'm just confused as to how it could not be accurate? It says "max 7.5" on all of their Orijen formulas, even their read meat one. The fish one was 7% max. That's not something you can really lie about, is it? I mean you can't just make up guaranteed analysis', right? I appreciate your knowledge, that's why I'm asking you, because you know more than I do. I was just confused because I almost expected to see a much higher ash, with the way it's brought up a lot now on judging a food. So it surprised to see it pretty low.
> 
> Purina Pro Plan also just made a new grain-free formula that is using the ingredients you often say bump up protein, etc.
> 
> ...


Yeah I saw that Pro Plan food. That isn't something I would use. And, yes they can lie. They do all over the website. You know that 80/20 nonsense? That is precooking weight. Don't you think that is lying? Don't you think its lying when its turns out the fish in the food was thrown away before Champion contracted to buy it? Don't you think its lying when you write a White Paper without doing any primary research and just misquoting others? 

The only way to get caught is a label audit.

By the way I am glad you brought up Regional Red. I can't see how that food could be 7.5% ash with such high calcium and phosphorous.


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## Jacksons Mom (Jun 13, 2010)

monster'sdad said:


> Yeah I saw that Pro Plan food. That isn't something I would use. And, yes they can lie. They do all over the website. You know that 80/20 nonsense? That is precooking weight. Don't you think that is lying? Don't you think its lying when its turns out the fish in the food was thrown away before Champion contracted to buy it? Don't you think its lying when you write a White Paper without doing any primary research and just misquoting others?
> 
> The only way to get caught is a label audit.
> 
> By the way I am glad you brought up Regional Red. I can't see how that food could be 7.5% ash with such high calcium and phosphorous.


Well, yes. I think it's bending the truth quite a bit. But honestly, I feel like most foods do that, even human foods find little ways and sneaky wording and fancy marketing to sell a product. I'm not sure how I feel about them, still, honestly. Because my dog has done best on their foods thus far in his life. I certainly don't hold them to the high standard that I used to, and am well aware (now) of the little things they pull. But I'm not so sure they're any worse than most of the dog foods out there. I guess I'm just not sure what to think. 

We're going to give Annamaet a try next, as I really liked the e-mail I got when I asked them questions, and they are sending me a sample. But if some reason it doesn't work right for him, I'm not sure what to do. Fromm was working okay besides the eye boogers and always seeming hungry on the grain inclusives. He did well in all other regards. The grain-frees seemed to 'satisfy' him though, but caused softer poop. He also was obsessed with Fromm grain frees (taste-wise). And he's a pretty picky boy. 

I still have about 4-5 more cups worth of Fromm Duck and a half a bag left of Pork & Applesauce. I was trying to experiment a bit and bought two sample size bags of Acana (since he'd eaten it in past, majority of his life, assumed it wouldn't cause issues switching) and we're almost finished them both and eye boogers are gone. But I don't really wanna waste our food, so may continue on feeding Fromm until bag is gone. Curious to see if eye boogers come back.


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## riddick4811 (Nov 2, 2011)

monster'sdad said:


> Yeah I saw that Pro Plan food. That isn't something I would use. And, yes they can lie. They do all over the website. You know that 80/20 nonsense? That is precooking weight. Don't you think that is lying? Don't you think its lying when its turns out the fish in the food was thrown away before Champion contracted to buy it? Don't you think its lying when you write a White Paper without doing any primary research and just misquoting others?
> 
> The only way to get caught is a label audit.
> 
> By the way I am glad you brought up Regional Red. I can't see how that food could be 7.5% ash with such high calcium and phosphorous.


You said in another post that pea protein is basically the same thing as corn gluten meal, but yet Pro Plan uses corn gluten meal in many of their formulas. So what makes that ok, but a food that uses pea protein inferior? Wouldn't corn gluten meal boost the protein and mean less meat just the same as pea protein? 

Also what do you think of Pro Plans other new formula Rice and Duck? What is your feeling on using canola meal as a main ingredient? I know nothing about it and I've seen it a few other foods, but never as the first ingredient. Is it good or bad in a dog food? 

Canola meal, duck (natural source of glucosamine), brewers rice, barley, oat meal, animal fat preserved with mixed-tocopherols (form of Vitamin E), pea protein, brown rice, dried egg product, brewers dried yeast, pea fiber, natural flavor, calcium carbonate, fish oil, defluorinated phosphate, salt, potassium chloride, L-Lysine monohydrochloride, zinc proteinate, Vitamin E supplement, manganese proteinate, ferrous sulfate, L-ascorbyl-2-polyphosphate (source of Vitamin C), copper proteinate, niacin, Vitamin A supplement, calcium pantothenate, thiamine mononitrate, riboflavin supplement, Vitamin B-12 supplement, pyridoxine hydrochloride, folic acid, Vitamin D-3 supplement, calcium iodate, biotin, menadione sodium bisulfite complex (source of Vitamin K activity), sodium selenite.
A-4465


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## Jacksons Mom (Jun 13, 2010)

riddick4811 said:


> You said in another post that pea protein is basically the same thing as corn gluten meal, but yet Pro Plan uses corn gluten meal in many of their formulas. So what makes that ok, but a food that uses pea protein inferior? Wouldn't corn gluten meal boost the protein and mean less meat just the same as pea protein?


Good question.


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## riddick4811 (Nov 2, 2011)

Just read most of this article about canola meal: http://www.agric.wa.gov.au/objtwr/imported_assets/content/sust/biofuel/usesforcanolameal_report.pdf

I can see it being useful in livestock feed, but don't see where it is very healthy for dogs/cats where is replacing meat in their diet.


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## monster'sdad (Jul 29, 2012)

Yes corn gluten is basically the same as pea protein, but there is one big difference. Pro Plan is $1 - $1.25lb not as much as $3lb like those GF foods. Also, those GF's hold themselves out as "holistic" like Earthborn or having superior ingredients with names that don't remotely reflect the ingredients like Fromm Game Bird Recipe or the Tuna food. 

I don't ever recall saying Pea Protein was particularly harmful, rather a misleading trick. 

I would use a food with corn gluten (its not even gluten by the way) before pea protein because there is decades worth of experience using it. God knows with pea protein as these levels.


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## Sapphire-Light (Aug 8, 2010)

Wow! canola as first? I just went into the site to see this foods and they still use the vitamin k? 

Kind of of topic but when I was there I notice they have a poodle in front of the bag of the duck formula, as a poodle owner that is a cute nod to their breed hunting roots, however is sad that the food is mostly canola. 

I wish we could have a easy way to get fresh duck were I live so Pompadour could eat it, but the only way to have it is to buy a living one and kill it yourself :shocked: or to ask someone else to do the job.


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## riddick4811 (Nov 2, 2011)

monster'sdad said:


> Yes corn gluten is basically the same as pea protein, but there is one big difference. Pro Plan is $1 - $1.25lb not as much as $3lb like those GF foods. Also, those GF's hold themselves out as "holistic" like Earthborn or having superior ingredients with names that don't remotely reflect the ingredients like Fromm Game Bird Recipe or the Tuna food.
> 
> I don't ever recall saying Pea Protein was particularly harmful, rather a misleading trick.


Pro Plan Performance is now a 33lb bag at my Petco and is $52.99 so $1.60 per lb. Most of their other formulas are pricier other than the ones that have the "meaty" soy chunks in them. They run around $1-1.25 a lb. Fromm Grain free runs around $50-$69 depending on formula for their biggest bag which I think is 30lb bag locally to me. 

When I was feeding Earthborn grain free, I was paying $35 for 28lb bag, $1.25/lb. It has gone up over the past 6 months, but for the year I fed it, I never paid more than $1.25/lb, sometimes less with coupon codes.


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## Jacksons Mom (Jun 13, 2010)

monster'sdad said:


> Yes corn gluten is basically the same as pea protein, but there is one big difference. Pro Plan is $1 - $1.25lb not as much as $3lb like those GF foods. Also, those GF's hold themselves out as "holistic" like Earthborn or having superior ingredients with names that don't remotely reflect the ingredients like Fromm Game Bird Recipe or the Tuna food.
> 
> I don't ever recall saying Pea Protein was particularly harmful, rather a misleading trick.
> 
> I would use a food with corn gluten (its not even gluten by the way) before pea protein because there is decades worth of experience using it. God knows with pea protein as these levels.


I understand. I'm not really too concerned with pea protein and Pro Plan is getting pricier than ever before. You don't have to pay that much more to feed Fromm, etc. Around here anyway, Fromm is one of my least expensive options (in terms of "holistic" foods).

I am trying to pinpoint what ingredient in Fromm could cause the eye boogers Jax gets while on the food. I kind of recall it happening before when he was under one year old and I remember us doing a bag or two of surf and turf with bad eye boogers as a result. Overall though I can't decide if it's worth it to switch away from Fromm just because of eye boogers. I really really like them, and in all other regards, he does very well on the food. The only thing that I see that is mostly different from other foods he's been fed is the addition of flax seed and tomato pomace. The only one that doesn't have tomato pomace is their Fromm Classics food so I could always give that one another chance. Who knows really... I've never tried their Gold line.


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## monster'sdad (Jul 29, 2012)

Jacksons Mom said:


> Well, yes. I think it's bending the truth quite a bit. But honestly, I feel like most foods do that, even human foods find little ways and sneaky wording and fancy marketing to sell a product. I'm not sure how I feel about them, still, honestly. Because my dog has done best on their foods thus far in his life. I certainly don't hold them to the high standard that I used to, and am well aware (now) of the little things they pull. But I'm not so sure they're any worse than most of the dog foods out there. I guess I'm just not sure what to think.
> 
> We're going to give Annamaet a try next, as I really liked the e-mail I got when I asked them questions, and they are sending me a sample. But if some reason it doesn't work right for him, I'm not sure what to do. Fromm was working okay besides the eye boogers and always seeming hungry on the grain inclusives. He did well in all other regards. The grain-frees seemed to 'satisfy' him though, but caused softer poop. He also was obsessed with Fromm grain frees (taste-wise). And he's a pretty picky boy.
> 
> I still have about 4-5 more cups worth of Fromm Duck and a half a bag left of Pork & Applesauce. I was trying to experiment a bit and bought two sample size bags of Acana (since he'd eaten it in past, majority of his life, assumed it wouldn't cause issues switching) and we're almost finished them both and eye boogers are gone. But I don't really wanna waste our food, so may continue on feeding Fromm until bag is gone. Curious to see if eye boogers come back.


Little things? Remember when the foods tested positive for BHA/BHT?


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## Jacksons Mom (Jun 13, 2010)

monster'sdad said:


> Little things? Remember when the foods tested positive for BHA/BHT?


No, I don't recall this. OH boy... just another thing, lol. Do you have any links or sources to this? So in YOUR opinion, in my case, if you *had* to choose between Fromm (eye boogers, needs to eat more of the food) and Acana (does well in pretty much all regards), you would still choose Fromm? I'm asking honestly, because I do respect your opinion. And I personally just really like Fromm.


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## monster'sdad (Jul 29, 2012)

Fromm GF is in a 26lb bag and in some store it can be $70 a bag. Ok, $2.70lb.

Earthborn is $52.99 here and 28lb bag, so $1.90 

I said as much as $3lb, I should have said as much as $2.70.

I haven't seen Pro Plan in 33lb just 37.5lb, and Pet Supplies Plus has it for $43.99, so $1.20.


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## riddick4811 (Nov 2, 2011)

Different areas have different prices. The store had some of the 37.5lbs, but the new ones were 33lbs with the new bag design. I used to pay $28.99 for the 37.5lb, but it has really gone up. Eagle Pack used to be $35 for the 50lb breeder bag, but now the 30lb bag is $40. Prices keep going up. I used to feed my fosters Enhance and paid $30/40lb bag. Same formula with in a 2 yr period went to $49.99/40lb bag. And it really does amaze me at how it varies from state to state. 

Earthborn is $44.99 now at my local store. That is why I quit using it.


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## monster'sdad (Jul 29, 2012)

Jacksons Mom said:


> No, I don't recall this. OH boy... just another thing, lol. Do you have any links or sources to this? So in YOUR opinion, in my case, if you *had* to choose between Fromm (eye boogers, needs to eat more of the food) and Acana (does well in pretty much all regards), you would still choose Fromm? I'm asking honestly, because I do respect your opinion. And I personally just really like Fromm.


Yes, after the Australian irradiation recall, which they claim they knew nothing about, Michigan State tested the food and yes it tested positive for BHA & BHT and it was traced back to the chicken meal supplier I think.

Honestly, I would put a toy dog on Pursuit or Annamaet Ultra. I know you are focused on GF foods but that is what I would choose. If the dog had a real problem with chicken or eggs, then Annamaet Manitok, which is a really good food probably the best red meat food around.


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## Sapphire-Light (Aug 8, 2010)

Jacksons Mom said:


> I remember us doing a bag or two of surf and turf with bad eye boogers as a result.


Pompadour had bad tear stains when he was on RC (the food he came eating at the breeder)

When that bag was finished I switched him to proplan small breed, but then the boogers got a LOT worse, they even turned redish in color, I had to use angel eyes since the glands on the eyes were stucked.

Now that I use propac and earthbond the problem is gone.

And when you own a show dog tear stains are a serious problem (judges hate them)


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## Jacksons Mom (Jun 13, 2010)

monster'sdad said:


> Yes, after the Australian irradiation recall, which they claim they knew nothing about, Michigan State tested the food and yes it tested positive for BHA & BHT and it was traced back to the chicken meal supplier.
> 
> Honestly, I would put a toy dog on Pursuit or Annamaet Ultra. I know you are focused on GF foods but that is what I would choose. If the dog had a real problem with chicken or eggs, then Annamaet Manitok.


Thanks. I wouldn't feed Pursuit simply due to the higher fat content of 20%. Having a previous pancreatitis issue which landed him overnight in the hospital (due to eating too many fatty human foods), I just prefer to play it safe and not use anything higher than 17% ish. Just to be on the safe side.

I'm not really set on grain-free, it's just that whenever I've fed grain inclusive, I've never been as happy with the results. After his pancreatitis issue, we fed grain inclusives for probably six months (Natural Balance and Cali Nat). I never liked the way his coat looked, or his body condition. I notice much more muscle tone on him when on grain-free too. He hasn't been eating the Fromm long enough, IMO to tell a difference yet, but the last three 5lb bags of food have been their grain inclusives and the only thing I've noticed is excess eye boogers and seeming more hungry all the time. That's the main reason I've been seeking another grain-free. The Duck Fromm formula is 25/15. But I don't really know, lol. Maybe it's just the time of year and that's why he's been more hungry. I eat more when we're cooped up inside too, haha. But I guess I'll finish out our 5lb bag of Fromm Pork while deciding if/what to switch to.


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## monster'sdad (Jul 29, 2012)

riddick4811 said:


> Different areas have different prices. The store had some of the 37.5lbs, but the new ones were 33lbs with the new bag design. I used to pay $28.99 for the 37.5lb, but it has really gone up. Eagle Pack used to be $35 for the 50lb breeder bag, but now the 30lb bag is $40. Prices keep going up. I used to feed my fosters Enhance and paid $30/40lb bag. Same formula with in a 2 yr period went to $49.99/40lb bag. And it really does amaze me at how it varies from state to state.
> 
> Earthborn is $44.99 now at my local store. That is why I quit using it.


Did you try Victor's regular foods? Can you get The Pride? There is a 26/20 the hunters love.


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## monster'sdad (Jul 29, 2012)

Jacksons Mom said:


> Thanks. I wouldn't feed Pursuit simply due to the higher fat content of 20%. Having a previous pancreatitis issue which landed him overnight in the hospital (due to eating too many fatty human foods), I just prefer to play it safe and not use anything higher than 17% ish. Just to be on the safe side.
> 
> I'm not really set on grain-free, it's just that whenever I've fed grain inclusive, I've never been as happy with the results. After his pancreatitis issue, we fed grain inclusives for probably six months (Natural Balance and Cali Nat). I never liked the way his coat looked, or his body condition. I notice much more muscle tone on him when on grain-free too. He hasn't been eating the Fromm long enough, IMO to tell a difference yet, but the last three 5lb bags of food have been their grain inclusives and the only thing I've noticed is excess eye boogers and seeming more hungry all the time. That's the main reason I've been seeking another grain-free. The Duck Fromm formula is 25/15. But I don't really know, lol. Maybe it's just the time of year and that's why he's been more hungry. I eat more when we're cooped up inside too, haha. But I guess I'll finish out our 5lb bag of Fromm Pork while deciding if/what to switch to.



Are the eye buggers dried and hard, or do his eyes run when he is eating?


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## Jacksons Mom (Jun 13, 2010)

monster'sdad said:


> Are the eye buggers dried and hard, or do his eyes run when he is eating?


The eyes are runny and more wet on Fromm... 

He gets some dry or hard normal eye boogers every once in a while on Acana, but super easy to just pick out with your finger (I know, gross!) but it's a noticeable difference when on Fromm grain inclusive (didn't notice the issue on their grain-free). And a lot of Yorkies tend to be prone to those anyway, but his hair is kept short and out of his eyes, and he never seems to have issues with it.

I thought about trying some Gerber baby water, as I've read a lot of yorkie owners who have success getting rid of eye drainage with it, and keeping him on Fromm, and seeing if it helps any. 

Over the past few months this is how he ate-
all 4 or 5lb bags
First did Fromm Beef GF- loooved it, but softer poo than I like 
then Fromm Game Bird -also loved it, but I hated the smell of it, left a somewhat musty smell on his beard, but poo was harder on this than beef
Fromm Chicken a la Veg - about half way thru this bag was when eyes started up
Fromm Duck & Sweet Potato
now we've got Fromm Pork & Applesauce left. Almost a full bag unfinished.
Acana lamb & apple trial bag (eye problems went away)
Acana duck & pear trial bag (same as above)

Maybe I should stick with one formula longer. Or try Gold line next.


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## riddick4811 (Nov 2, 2011)

monster'sdad said:


> Did you try Victor's regular foods? Can you get The Pride? There is a 26/20 the hunters love.


I have 2 dogs eating Victor now. It is a 45 minute drive one way to pick it up though. It was $45/40lbs of the Ocean Blend. Casper didn't ok, but not great on it. Rocky is doing fabulous on it. He has been on it 3 months now and hasn't gotten one ear infection or lost hair on his butt. After 1 month on it, Casper skin started looking bad and his skin tumors seemed to get worse. He gets a lot of bleeding histiocytomas (sp). So I got a bag of the Yukon $45/30lbs. He just finished it in 7 weeks, but while he did better than the Ocean Blend, still not great on it. I have to buy something for him, but this dog makes it very difficult sometimes. He is eating Pongo's samples right now. Not the best food in the world and certainly out of my price range, but he is eating Evangers grain free with rabbit for the past 2 days. I have to find something though. I was thinking of going back to Native Level 1 as he did good on it, but Petflow/wag/chewy aren't carrying it anymore. He also did good on Earthborn Meadows Feast. 

Ronon (retired racer) is eating the Victor Hi Pro $37.99/40lbs and doing great on it, but my Greyhound puppy didn't. Someone on my Greyhound board said theirs were doing better on the 24/20 than the 30/20 so I may try it after they finish their food, but I used a coupon code and bought a bag of Annamaet Extra to try. Jack (Boston) can eat anything and did fine on the Hi Pro too. 

Casper has allergies (tear stains, ear infections, yeasty feet/toes, nail bed infections and digestive problems) when he eats certain food (chicken is only one I know for sure) plus he has fatty tumors, mast cell tumors (grade 1 so far), and various other skin growths and tumors. He also gains weight very easily as he is 9 yrs old and has hip dysplasia and a knee that pops in and out of place so it hard for him to exercise as much as he would like. He still goes hiking, but I can't let him run loose anymore as he over does it and I can't carry a 118lb dog back to the car!


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## whiteleo (Sep 7, 2008)

monster'sdad said:


> Little things? Remember when the foods tested positive for BHA/BHT?


What are your sources for this info and that they use meat from Kentucky and fish that is meant to be thrown away...SOURCE PLEASE!


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## mheath0429 (Sep 8, 2012)

Please note: NONE of the U.S. food was recalled it was only Australian. Also note, the Australian Government applied the radiation, not Champion. 

I would never feed a food with Corn or Soy and I ESPECIALLY wouldn't feed Canola..that is a GMO I don't deal with. 

I can't tell you what to feed. What I do know, is that on crap food, my dogs looked like crap and felt like crap. When they were eating Acana they looked wonderful and seemingly felt wonderful. I can say the same for Grandma Lucy's and other products. When I fed purina, all I got was literal crap and lots of it, on top of eye gunk, dull coats and dry skin. Then I educated myself. Any company that can't do away with Synthetic Vitamin K loses my vote.


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## kevin bradley (Aug 9, 2009)

Jacksons Mom said:


> Purina Pro Plan also just made a new grain-free formula that is using the ingredients you often say bump up protein, etc.


Amazing. The Scientists at the Purina Labs must have just finished up their study on Grain Free diets and deemed it as superior which drove the launch of their new line


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## Jacksons Mom (Jun 13, 2010)

mheath0429 said:


> Please note: NONE of the U.S. food was recalled it was only Australian. Also note, the Australian Government applied the radiation, not Champion.
> 
> I would never feed a food with Corn or Soy and I ESPECIALLY wouldn't feed Canola..that is a GMO I don't deal with.
> 
> I can't tell you what to feed. What I do know, is that on crap food, my dogs looked like crap and felt like crap. When they were eating Acana they looked wonderful and seemingly felt wonderful. I can say the same for Grandma Lucy's and other products. When I fed purina, all I got was literal crap and lots of it, on top of eye gunk, dull coats and dry skin. Then I educated myself. *Any company that can't do away with Synthetic Vitamin K loses my vote.*


Totally agree. Not to mention, I'm not very happy that Purina refuses to pull their chicken jerky treats which are CLEARLY killing dogs. Some reputable company they are. (Don't worry, I wasn't considering feeding Purina).


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## monster'sdad (Jul 29, 2012)

whiteleo said:


> What are your sources for this info and that they use meat from Kentucky and fish that is meant to be thrown away...SOURCE PLEASE!



Listen, 1) Just Google "BHA Champion Pet Foods MSU" you will see Champion admitting it in a public statement. 2) Google "Fish By-Products" Champion Pet Foods" you will find a press release from a company called Freshwater Fish explaining everything & 3) Google "Champion Pet Food Griffin Industries". If that isn't enough this letter from a person at Champion confirms where the Chicken Meal comes from. I am sure it is just dandy but we all know it is a big part of the food and conflicts with the "Regional Canadian Ingredient" claim.

*"Originally Posted by roxy84 
i got some of this from champion via correspondence. while the email doesnt mention kentucky, i recall her saying KY was where they procured most of their chicken meal

Derek, 

Chicken meal is a good example. Although there are producers of chicken meal in Canada, none are capable of producing from chickens passed fit for human consumption and as such no Canadian chicken meal meets the European Union Pet Food Regulation 1774. At present, Canadian chicken meal is made with spent hens (from egg laying operations) as well as chickens that have died, but are not processed in a federally inspected facility, or were not passed as ‘fit for human consumption’ by the Government of Canada. 

So, while our focus is “fresh and regional” our primary objective is always to achieve the highest standard in nutrition, palatability and food safety. Until chicken meal from human grade chickens is available in Canada, Champion will source its chicken meal from one of 2 USA chicken processors, whose chickens and facility are USDA certified, and who have the appropriate European Union qualifications (EU 1774).

ORIJEN is made with special 'low ash' chicken meal. This ingredient is prepared by removing the bones before cooking, which creates a very high protein and low ash ingredient. The result is a moderated amount of calcium and phosphorus in the final ORIJEN kibble. There are definitely different qualities of meat meals out there, just as there are many different grades of meat for you to choose from at your local grocers. If you start with ingredients that are mostly muscle meat (as is the case with our meat meals), this results in a quality meal that is very high in protein. most of the content of our meals will be muscle meat.

Best Regards,

Bonnie
Customer Care
Champion Petfoods LP
p 780.939.6888
f 780.939.6858"*

Here is the quote from Freshwater Fish which you can double-check:

*"Freshwater Fish is always looking to expand its market 
reach and to strengthen existing markets – even non-human 
ones! We recently signed an exclusive arrangement with Alberta- 
based Champion Petfoods, whereby we sell all minced 
by-products to them and they in turn buy all the product 
we have to offer. We began working with Champion in 2005 when we 
sent them samples of minced by-products for testing after 
it was extracted from fish during the filleting process. Prior 
to sending the product to Alberta, we had been paying to 
have the waste trucked to a rendering facility in Winnipeg. 
After the samples were tested by Champion, a product was 
developed that met their high quality specifications. 
This business brings in several hundred thousand dollars 
in revenue for a product that previously cost us money to 
dispose of – and we’re thrilled to be building on a relationship 
that dates back more than five years."*

So while there is probably nothing wrong with the product, the vision and marketing of a grey-bearded fisherman in a yellow rainsuit providing perfect filets to Champion is clearly wrong.

As for Australia, well there is quite a bit info available that suggest to me the irradiation requirement was obvious a long time before the food was exported. A women named The Cat Mother obtained documents under Australia's document release laws.


----------



## monster'sdad (Jul 29, 2012)

mheath0429 said:


> Please note: NONE of the U.S. food was recalled it was only Australian. Also note, the Australian Government applied the radiation, not Champion.
> 
> I would never feed a food with Corn or Soy and I ESPECIALLY wouldn't feed Canola..that is a GMO I don't deal with.
> 
> I can't tell you what to feed. What I do know, is that on crap food, my dogs looked like crap and felt like crap. When they were eating Acana they looked wonderful and seemingly felt wonderful. I can say the same for Grandma Lucy's and other products. When I fed purina, all I got was literal crap and lots of it, on top of eye gunk, dull coats and dry skin. Then I educated myself. Any company that can't do away with Synthetic Vitamin K loses my vote.


Not all Canola is GMO, and Canola was never developed that way. That is a myth. It was developed by old fashioned cross-breeding. 

EU Certified Plants cannot use GMO products.


----------



## whiteleo (Sep 7, 2008)

So this letter you sent via someone else is about chicken meal, so what? We all know that they had an issue with the irradiation when they sent their product overseas but what is the issues lately?


----------



## InkedMarie (Sep 9, 2011)

Brit, have you thought about trying Dr Tim's grain free? Ginger will be on the pursuit for awhile but I will probably try it. She gets weepy eyes too and I'm not sure what the cause is.


----------



## DaViking (Sep 27, 2011)

whiteleo said:


> What are your sources for this info and that they use meat from Kentucky and fish that is meant to be thrown away...SOURCE PLEASE!


Poultry meals with BHA/BHT. The big elephant in the room. Well... for some it's probably big.


----------



## DaViking (Sep 27, 2011)

riddick4811 said:


> You said in another post that pea protein is basically the same thing as corn gluten meal, but yet Pro Plan uses corn gluten meal in many of their formulas. So what makes that ok, but a food that uses pea protein inferior? Wouldn't corn gluten meal boost the protein and mean less meat just the same as pea protein?


Not to derail the discussion but corn gluten meal can (and are) be used to balance and compliment the overall amino acid profile without throwing other properties off balance. It is done to produce low residue LIP foods. You'll often see ash in the 4's in good products using CGM, like R-C. And yes, it can be used inappropriately too in cheap/bad foods.


----------



## mheath0429 (Sep 8, 2012)

monster'sdad said:


> Not all Canola is GMO, and Canola was never developed that way. That is a myth. It was developed by old fashioned cross-breeding.
> 
> EU Certified Plants cannot use GMO products.


Do you believe everything the government says?


----------



## monster'sdad (Jul 29, 2012)

mheath0429 said:


> Do you believe everything the government says?


I don't understand your question. What does the government have to do with how Canola was hybridized in the 1970's maybe even the 1960's when there was no such thing as genetic engineering. It was not genetically modified when it was developed, it was manually cross-bred. 

True much of the North American crop is GMO for Roundup resistance but not all of the crop is. Most of the European crop is not GMO Canola either, so if you add it up there is a huge chunk of the crop that is not GMO.

What are you concerned about?


----------



## Jacksons Mom (Jun 13, 2010)

InkedMarie said:


> Brit, have you thought about trying Dr Tim's grain free? Ginger will be on the pursuit for awhile but I will probably try it. She gets weepy eyes too and I'm not sure what the cause is.


Yes, I was considering giving it a try. Monstersdad posted a link to a 5lb bag on petflow for really cheap, so I may just give it a shot. It's $4.39 and once shipping is added it's $9-something, but still a great deal. So I was thinking of giving it a go.

But we're going to finish off this bag of Fromm Pork & Applesauce and I'm going to keep an "eye" on his eyes, haha. Maybe it was coincidence, maybe it was food, I don't know. Otherwise does well on Fromm and absolutely goes nutso over the taste of it!


----------



## mheath0429 (Sep 8, 2012)

monster'sdad said:


> I don't understand your question. What does the government have to do with how Canola was hybridized in the 1970's maybe even the 1960's when there was no such thing as genetic engineering. It was not genetically modified when it was developed, it was manually cross-bred.
> 
> True much of the North American crop is GMO for Roundup resistance but not all of the crop is. Most of the European crop is not GMO Canola either, so if you add it up there is a huge chunk of the crop that is not GMO.
> 
> What are you concerned about?


Well, pretty much everyone besides the Canadian government will tell you that Canola, in its existence is a GMO.


----------



## monster'sdad (Jul 29, 2012)

mheath0429 said:


> Well, pretty much everyone besides the Canadian government will tell you that Canola, in its existence is a GMO.


That is simply not true. Show me. The huge European crop is all non-gmo. 

It also has nothing to do with mustard gas.


----------



## mheath0429 (Sep 8, 2012)

When did I say anything about mustard gas? 

Arguing with you is pointless. 

People, do your research about Canola...make up your own minds.


----------



## monster'sdad (Jul 29, 2012)

mheath0429 said:


> When did I say anything about mustard gas?
> 
> Arguing with you is pointless.
> 
> People, do your research about Canola...make up your own minds.


Mustard gas is another myth about Canola.

Very good idea, people should do their own research and they will easily find out how Canola was crossed-bred manually and not created by genetic engineering at a time when genetic engineering didn't exist. Do you not eat certain Apples because they were manually cross-bred?

They will also find out not one acre of land in Europe is planted with GMO Canola and some 30% of the land in North America is farmed with NON GMO Canola.

Here is a partital list of the certified NON-GMO canola seeds:

Flash 

Hornet 

Rally 

Sitro 

Safran 

Dimension 

Visby 

Kronos 

Baldur

Dynastie


"don't let the facts get in the way of a good story"


----------



## Foodie (Apr 25, 2010)

How canola (rapeseed) was developed is irrelevant, it is genetically modified to resist herbicides, 90-95% of commercial canola in the US is GM and pretty much the same in Canada. Canada produces 20% of the world's canola. A fairly recent discovery has shown that 80% of feral canola (wild) "had at least one of two herbicide-resistance genes. Furthermore, a small number of the plants contained both genes, although plants containing both genes have never been commercially released." "*Feral modified canola has also shown up in the last decade in Canada, Germany, France, the United Kingdom, Japan and Australia.*" (Study cites abundance of genetically modified canola crops) Where do you get your 30% of canola in US is non-GMO?

And....it's not true that EU certified plants cannot use GMO products, EU even produces their own GMO crops! Foods containing GMO ingredients that are destined for the EU must be labeled as containing GMO, it's all about traceability. Canola is not a GMO crop approved for food use in EU but I wouldn't say the Europeans are producing a huge chunk of non GMO canola, they are importing their canola from Australia where GMO canola crops are 7%. What difference does it make anyway, nobody in N. America is going to import non GMO canola for dog food. 



> The slow pace of approval has been criticized as endangering European food safety[61][62] although as of 2012, *the EU has authorized the use of 48 genetically modified organisms. Most of these were for use in animal feed (it was reported in 2012 that the EU imports about 30 million tons a year of GM crops for animal consumption.[63]), food or food additives.* 26 of these were varieties of maize[64]. In July 2012 the EU gave approval for an Irish trial cultivation of potatoes resistant to the blight that caused the Great Irish Famine.[6]


Definitely do your research when listening to monsters dad, he's often wrong unless your interested in how much a dog food costs per pound. :tongue:






monster'sdad said:


> Not all Canola is GMO, and Canola was never developed that way. That is a myth. It was developed by old fashioned cross-breeding.
> 
> EU Certified Plants cannot use GMO products.


----------



## DaViking (Sep 27, 2011)

It is true that EU cert. plants can use GM crops for products destined for Europe. EU laws and regulations on this is pretty easy to comprehend, more problematic and muddled is the use and sale within each member country and affiliated non member countries. Since this have been a hot topic for years there are A LOT of local exceptions, amendments and provisions negotiated with Bruxelles. The bare minimum as Foodie said is a clear label stating the product include genetically modified ingredients. Traditionally these products are for the UK market as they have had pretty laxed GMO laws for a while. I have personally never seen a dog food from a US manufacturer clearly labeled as using GMO products in my old neck of the woods but that doesn't mean they didn't exists as doggoblin eloquently stated earlier. Don't know how it is nowadays there. So to the point; Are EU cert. plants/lines GMO free? (GMO crops) It's possible if they want to reach maximum consumers, doesn't have to be. I know Genesis guarantees GMO free products but they are a question mark to me lately, in terms of production.


----------



## Foodie (Apr 25, 2010)

monster'sdad said:


> Mustard gas is another myth about Canola.
> 
> Very good idea, *people should do their own research and they will easily find out how Canola was crossed-bred manually *and not created by genetic engineering at a time when genetic engineering didn't exist. Do you not eat certain Apples because they were manually cross-bred?
> 
> ...


Cross bred manually??? Hardly, canola was developed in a laboratory not a greenhouse!

**Note that a little internet research may reveal quite a bit of comforting assurances that Canola was bred with traditional plant breeding techniques. You might need to parse your definition of tradition. Canola was created through a pioneer genetic methodology that could only be produced in a laboratory. If you read the Rape book, Canola scientists actually took the unprecedented move of using gas chromatography to identify the genes that controlled erucic levels in the rapeseed, and then they seed-split to germinate a half seed. It wasn’t like they planted two plants and cross-pollinated the species over time. They developed a new procedure known as seed-splitting to accomplish the genetic determinism and the scientists who invented Canola were one of the first to use the technology. The plants they used represented an international patchwork of trial and error of combining parts that might seem a bit like the task of assembling Frankenstein, as opposed to gardening in the backyard. The techniques indeed quite obviously paved the way for the full-blow genetic engineering that so many natural and organic supporters worry about today. In fact, Monsanto’s GMO crops were built on the back of the Canola plant, by the very scientists who created the Canola out of nothing but gas chromatography, split seeds and erucic content.**http://www.greencradle.net/2011/02/wondering-about-canola-oil/


----------



## Foodie (Apr 25, 2010)

Jacksons Mom said:


> No, I don't recall this. OH boy... just another thing, lol. Do you have any links or sources to this? So in YOUR opinion, in my case, if you *had* to choose between Fromm (eye boogers, needs to eat more of the food) and Acana (does well in pretty much all regards), you would still choose Fromm? I'm asking honestly, because I do respect your opinion. And I personally just really like Fromm.


IMO (between these two), I would stick with Acana if they do better on it, the grain free Fromm has little protein in it from meat. Add a little water to the Acana and they will like it as much as Fromms. Don't buy a bag bigger (of Acana) than you can use up in about 3 weeks. 

If their eyes are watering mostly when they are eating it could be related to the size/shape/hardness of the kibble.


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## Jacksons Mom (Jun 13, 2010)

Foodie said:


> IMO (between these two), I would stick with Acana if they do better on it, the grain free Fromm has little protein in it from meat. Add a little water to the Acana and they will like it as much as Fromms. Don't buy a bag bigger (of Acana) than you can use up in about 3 weeks.
> 
> If their eyes are watering mostly when they are eating it could be related to the size/shape/hardness of the kibble.


He's not on the grainfree Fromm. He's been on the grain inclusives. But I'm confused - his eyes aren't watering WHILE he's eating... just when he's on Fromm, eye boogers in general are worse. Not sure how that relates to size of kibble? (which is a lot smaller than Acana).


----------



## whiteleo (Sep 7, 2008)

Jacksons Mom said:


> He's not on the grainfree Fromm. He's been on the grain inclusives. But I'm confused - his eyes aren't watering WHILE he's eating... just when he's on Fromm, eye boogers in general are worse. Not sure how that relates to size of kibble? (which is a lot smaller than Acana).


Dogs that tend to chew more (work jaw muscles) will have an increase in tears from the tear duct muscles being used.


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## monster'sdad (Jul 29, 2012)

Foodie said:


> How canola (rapeseed) was developed is irrelevant, it is genetically modified to resist herbicides, 90-95% of commercial canola in the US is GM and pretty much the same in Canada. Canada produces 20% of the world's canola. A fairly recent discovery has shown that 80% of feral canola (wild) "had at least one of two herbicide-resistance genes. Furthermore, a small number of the plants contained both genes, although plants containing both genes have never been commercially released." "*Feral modified canola has also shown up in the last decade in Canada, Germany, France, the United Kingdom, Japan and Australia.*" (Study cites abundance of genetically modified canola crops) Where do you get your 30% of canola in US is non-GMO?
> 
> And....it's not true that EU certified plants cannot use GMO products, EU even produces their own GMO crops! Foods containing GMO ingredients that are destined for the EU must be labeled as containing GMO, it's all about traceability. Canola is not a GMO crop approved for food use in EU but I wouldn't say the Europeans are producing a huge chunk of non GMO canola, they are importing their canola from Australia where GMO canola crops are 7%. What difference does it make anyway, nobody in N. America is going to import non GMO canola for dog food.
> 
> ...


You, and the rest are nothing but alarmists. Not one acre in Europe in farmed with GMO Canola. And EU Cert. Plants cannot use GMO Products because of the labeling requirements and the inability to sell in certain markets.

The European Winter Canola crop is as much as 6 times on average the size of Australia's Spring crop. This is year Australia harvested 3MM tons vs Europe at 20MM tons. I will let you do the math, just divide.

In fact, the European harvest this year was about 100% higher than the US crop. 

The fact is only about 20% of the global acreage for Canola is GMO.

You all get sucked into these Oliver Stone-like websites and books that are not even remotely truthful.

Go scare other people. I do, however, love reading the armchair science and "Occupy Wall Street" - type hysteria.


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## monster'sdad (Jul 29, 2012)

Foodie said:


> IMO (between these two), I would stick with Acana if they do better on it, the grain free Fromm has little protein in it from meat. Add a little water to the Acana and they will like it as much as Fromms. Don't buy a bag bigger (of Acana) than you can use up in about 3 weeks.
> 
> If their eyes are watering mostly when they are eating it could be related to the size/shape/hardness of the kibble.


Acana has just as much protein from legumes as Fromm. People get so romanced by the Champion marketing that even when presented with the facts they simply cannot accept the truth.


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## kevin bradley (Aug 9, 2009)

In fairness, Monster... I think Tim is using Peas in his Grain Free formula. 

Just want to be fair here.


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## Georgiapeach (Jan 24, 2011)

Jacksons Mom said:


> The eyes are runny and more wet on Fromm...
> 
> He gets some dry or hard normal eye boogers every once in a while on Acana, but super easy to just pick out with your finger (I know, gross!) but it's a noticeable difference when on Fromm grain inclusive (didn't notice the issue on their grain-free). And a lot of Yorkies tend to be prone to those anyway, but his hair is kept short and out of his eyes, and he never seems to have issues with it.
> 
> ...


I'm not understanding why you keep insisting on feeding Fromm, when it's clearly causing problems for your dog! It sounds like the Acana was working great, so why not go back to it?


----------



## monster'sdad (Jul 29, 2012)

kevin bradley said:


> In fairness, Monster... I think Tim is using Peas in his Grain Free formula.
> 
> Just want to be fair here.


I am but he doesn't use Pea Protein or multiple legumes and neither does Annamaet. I am fair and if either started using lentils or chickpeas or any type of concentrate or other legume derivative, I would be the first to slam them and I would on here.


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## whiteleo (Sep 7, 2008)

monster'sdad said:


> Acana has just as much protein from legumes as Fromm. People get so romanced by the Champion marketing that even when presented with the facts they simply cannot accept the truth.


WTH are you talking about, Champion doesn't advertise, never have seen an ad for their food once at least where I live, most people who care for their dogs will do their own research and find out what is best. I still think you make or sell this other crap you spew.


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## DaViking (Sep 27, 2011)

whiteleo said:


> Dogs that tend to chew more (work jaw muscles) will have an increase in tears from the tear duct muscles being used.


And you want chewing. Chewing means less time in the stomach. That's why you should never discount the shape/size/density/texture of the kibble as not important.


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## Jacksons Mom (Jun 13, 2010)

whiteleo said:


> Dogs that tend to chew more (work jaw muscles) will have an increase in tears from the tear duct muscles being used.


Oh that's interesting! Thanks for the information.

Well, Fromm is a lot smaller than Acana, so he chews a lot less. So I'm not sure why that would be the cause in this case.



Georgiapeach said:


> I'm not understanding why you keep insisting on feeding Fromm, when it's clearly causing problems for your dog! It sounds like the Acana was working great, so why not go back to it?


Lol, I dunno, I guess I'm just weird. Maybe I've read too much about Champion that makes me uncomfortable. I love Fromm, and so does Jackson (I've never seen him eat a kibble so fast).

So I don't really know what my problem is, haha. I probably read too much on the internet and need to stop. I wouldn't know these things if I was just a normal dog owner, and I'm sure he'd still be doing great on Acana. I just wasn't really pleased with the ingredient changes. A lot of yorkies I know of started itching real bad on the new formulas and got a rash on their belly. 

My other option was Canine Caviar but it's sooo pricey ($21 for a 4lb bag or something ridiculous). When I tried to feed it, Jackson didn't really like it either. But I hear a lot of people are loving the results on it.


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## monster'sdad (Jul 29, 2012)

whiteleo said:


> WTH are you talking about, Champion doesn't advertise, never have seen an ad for their food once at least where I live, most people who care for their dogs will do their own research and find out what is best. I still think you make or sell this other crap you spew.


You asked me for proof about the chicken meal, fish by-products and BHA/BHT and then there were crickets (that is an expression)

I will give you one more to consider. This is from both of the Champion websites:

*"According to the National Research Council's Committee on Animal Nutrition (2006), "there appears to be no requirement for carbohydrates provided sufficient protein is given."*

First, the source of this quote is not the NRC. It is from a narrow study done at the U of Penn on sleds dogs by Kronfeld. Feeding only protein and fat was by no means a recommendation of that study by Kronfeld, who by the way was the co-formulator of the first Annamaet diet, which was a project at U of Penn.

The 2006 NRC study that Champion cites actually declared that domesticated dogs are omnivores and could actually thrive on a diet of all vegetable protein. It suggests that pet dogs eat a diet of proteins, fats and carbohydrates.

So you can decide whether that quotation on the website is fair and accurate.


----------



## Foodie (Apr 25, 2010)

monster'sdad said:


> You, and the rest are nothing but alarmists. Not one acre in Europe in farmed with GMO Canola. And EU Cert. Plants cannot use GMO Products because of the labeling requirements and the inability to sell in certain markets.
> 
> The European Winter Canola crop is as much as 6 times on average the size of Australia's Spring crop. This is year Australia harvested 3MM tons vs Europe at 20MM tons. I will let you do the math, just divide.
> 
> ...


They most certainly can, if they choose to not use GMO products that's there prerogative, it's hard to get non-GMO crops in N.Am. today. Your quick to throw numbers out there and some will believe you but I know a lot of what you say is smoke and mirrors. Provide some links to back up what you say.

The fact is GMO crops of corn, soy and canola predominate in N.Am., it doesn't matter that other continents produce non-GMO crops or how much they produce, they aren't imported for DOG FOOD. If a dog food contains these ingredients (and some others) it's very likely that they contain GMO unless the dog food is certified organic. Some companies try to use non-GMO ingredients but they can't guarantee they're not in the food as non-GMO products are getting hard to find. I think your in denial and probably don't realize that a lot of human food products in N.Am. contain GMO ingredients.


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## monster'sdad (Jul 29, 2012)

Foodie said:


> They most certainly can, if they choose to not use GMO products that's there prerogative, it's hard to get non-GMO crops in N.Am. today. Your quick to throw numbers out there and some will believe you but I know a lot of what you say is smoke and mirrors. Provide some links to back up what you say.
> 
> The fact is GMO crops of corn, soy and canola predominate in N.Am., it doesn't matter that other continents produce non-GMO crops or how much they produce, they aren't imported for DOG FOOD. If a dog food contains these ingredients (and some others) it's very likely that they contain GMO unless the dog food is certified organic. Some companies try to use non-GMO ingredients but they can't guarantee they're not in the food as non-GMO products are getting hard to find. I think your in denial and probably don't realize that a lot of human food products in N.Am. contain GMO ingredients.


You are right, GMO Canola does dominate NA. I never said it didn't. I responded to an off the cuff statement that all Canola is GMO and/or was developed by genetic modification. Read the thread. That is totally an incorrect statement. NA does in fact grow NON-GMO and the rest of the world grows predominantly NON-GMO. Europe grows 100% NON-GMO and Australia's small crop is about 95% NON-GMO. There are two GMO cultivars approved by the EU but neither of them have been used commercially.

As for dog food, the only Canola product in the vast majority of foods is Canola Oil, and NON-GMO oil can be easily purchased in the United States. I could buy it today in any health food store.

And don't tell me what I think. I know what I said and all that data is fact. You cross-check it.

I don't support the use of GMO products, by the way, but I won't ignore statements that are factually incorrect and intended to scare people or push a raw feeding agenda.


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## Sheltielover25 (Jan 18, 2011)

monster'sdad said:


> You are right, GMO Canola does dominate NA. I never said it didn't. I responded to an off the cuff statement that all Canola is GMO and/or was developed by genetic modification. Read the thread. That is totally an incorrect statement. NA does in fact grow NON-GMO and the rest of the world grows predominantly NON-GMO. Europe grows 100% NON-GMO and Australia's small crop is about 95% NON-GMO. There are two GMO cultivars approved by the EU but neither of them have been used commercially.
> 
> As for dog food, the only Canola product in the vast majority of foods is Canola Oil, and NON-GMO oil can be easily purchased in the United States. I could buy it today in any health food store.
> 
> ...


 [email protected] you if you think the oil in these cheap foods comes from the health food stores! Get real. The fact you have to go to a SPECIAL store to avoid non-GMO oil says it ALL.


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## Jacksons Mom (Jun 13, 2010)

Speaking of ash, and staying somewhat on topic... is low ash in, in general, more important for giant breeds?

This is by far the lowest ash food I've seen at 4.79%:

Pet Products - Healthy Dog Food, Natural Cat Food, Gourmet Dog Biscuits ? Innova Holistic Pet Food


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## kevin bradley (Aug 9, 2009)

Jacksons Mom said:


> Speaking of ash, and staying somewhat on topic... is low ash in, in general, more important for giant breeds?
> 
> This is by far the lowest ash food I've seen at 4.79%:
> 
> Pet Products - Healthy Dog Food, Natural Cat Food, Gourmet Dog Biscuits ? Innova Holistic Pet Food




Uh oh. I think you just invited Monster's head to spin off its axis.

Just a guess 

But then again, a major conglomerate just bought them so he might approve.

Just funnin on ya, Monster


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## monster'sdad (Jul 29, 2012)

Sheltielover25 said:


> [email protected] you if you think the oil in these cheap foods comes from the health food stores! Get real. The fact you have to go to a SPECIAL store to avoid non-GMO oil says it ALL.




Jedwards International, Inc.. bulk organic canola oil
Buy Canola Oil - Non-GMO,5 Gals. | Health Food Stores | Organic Food
Azure Standard
Anne's PEI Farm : Our Products : Non-GMO Canola, Non-GMO Canola Oil
Bridgewell Food & Agriculture | Organic Expeller Pressed & Hi-Oleic Oils

Somehow I think anyone that needs or wants non-gmo canola oil should be able to find it.


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## monster'sdad (Jul 29, 2012)

kevin bradley said:


> Uh oh. I think you just invited Monster's head to spin off its axis.
> 
> Just a guess
> 
> ...


The low ash is a function of the low calcium level that people believe benefits large and giants breeds. It would be interesting to see how much of the protein is animal based.


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## kevin bradley (Aug 9, 2009)

so we know you hate Orijen/Acana(Champion)... do you also hate Evo/Innova(Natura-PG)?


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## DaViking (Sep 27, 2011)

Jacksons Mom said:


> Speaking of ash, and staying somewhat on topic... is low ash in, in general, more important for giant breeds?
> 
> This is by far the lowest ash food I've seen at 4.79%:
> 
> Pet Products - Healthy Dog Food, Natural Cat Food, Gourmet Dog Biscuits ? Innova Holistic Pet Food


Don't put all your eggs in the "low ash basket" I feel you are overthinking it a little now  To me low ash is one of many factors, not the end all, be all. Low ash is good because excessive ash is a "true" filler and some minerals comes with questionmarks if fed to liberally but if you put too much emphasis on extreme low ash you will only limit the selection unnecessary. In a few cases higher ash is the flip side of intentional design, not necessarily a result of "bad" ingredients.


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## Foodie (Apr 25, 2010)

kevin bradley said:


> so we know you hate Orijen/Acana(Champion)... do you also hate Evo/Innova(Natura-PG)?


Sal likes anything that's cheap, it depends on how much per pound it is.


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## mheath0429 (Sep 8, 2012)

There's a pretty decent amount of meat in it too - 

urkey
Chicken
Chicken Meal
Barley
Brown Rice
Potato
Rice
Chicken Fat (Preserved with Mixed Tocopherols, a Natural Source of Vitamin E)


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## monster'sdad (Jul 29, 2012)

mheath0429 said:


> There's a pretty decent amount of meat in it too -
> 
> urkey
> Chicken
> ...


It is a 25% protein food and there is no way you can tell how much animal protein is in the food by just reading the panel because you don't know the weights of each.

The first two ingredients could be over 80% water depending on how much water was added to make the slurry. There is really only one meat meal.

See if Natura will tell you, I doubt. If it was a high number the company would advertise it.

$2lb a pound for a 25% protein food is a joke, wouldn't be on my list.


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## monster'sdad (Jul 29, 2012)

kevin bradley said:


> so we know you hate Orijen/Acana(Champion)... do you also hate Evo/Innova(Natura-PG)?


I don't actually and I really like EVO Red Meat for the right dog. Innova is way overpriced for what you get, but hate nah.


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## monster'sdad (Jul 29, 2012)

DaViking said:


> Don't put all your eggs in the "low ash basket" I feel you are overthinking it a little now  To me low ash is one of many factors, not the end all, be all. Low ash is good because excessive ash is a "true" filler and some minerals comes with questionmarks if fed to liberally but if you put too much emphasis on extreme low ash you will only limit the selection unnecessary. In a few cases higher ash is the flip side of intentional design, not necessarily a result of "bad" ingredients.


Higher ash is expected with red meat foods only because the industry making low ash meals is rather small right now. I can't see how increasing the amount by design is of any benefit. If the animal only needs 2 - 3% mineral then no matter what ingredient is used that should be the goal at least theoretically. The economics of that may be unreasonable though.


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## DaViking (Sep 27, 2011)

monster'sdad said:


> Higher ash is expected with red meat foods only because the industry making low ash meals is rather small right now. I can't see how increasing the amount by design is of any benefit. If the animal only needs 2 - 3% mineral then no matter what ingredient is used that should be the goal at least theoretically. The economics of that may be unreasonable though.


I was not referring to red meat ingredients but montmorillonite clay and similar mineral products. It will work for the reasons the formulator put them in there for (by design) but the flip side of this is bumped levels of minerals. My point was that in a few cases there can be reasons other than sub par ingredients resulting in high ash levels. Not taking a stand for or against clay.


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## monster'sdad (Jul 29, 2012)

DaViking said:


> I was not referring to red meat ingredients but montmorillonite clay and similar mineral products. It will work for the reasons the formulator put them in there for (by design) but the flip side of this is more minerals. My point was that in a few cases there can be reasons other than sub par ingredients resulting in high ash levels. Not taking a stand for or against clay.


Well, you are right the flipside is more minerals but my guess is the design objective is stool hardening rather the some medical benefit. I get your point but I still don't believe any ingredient that results in high minerals provides any net benefit.

The benefit of that clay is fairly questionable when it comes to diet. In the lab and industry it is used pretty extensively for cleaning and containing toxic and industrial waste.


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## Jacksons Mom (Jun 13, 2010)

DaViking said:


> Don't put all your eggs in the "low ash basket" I feel you are overthinking it a little now  To me low ash is one of many factors, not the end all, be all. Low ash is good because excessive ash is a "true" filler and some minerals comes with questionmarks if fed to liberally but if you put too much emphasis on extreme low ash you will only limit the selection unnecessary. In a few cases higher ash is the flip side of intentional design, not necessarily a result of "bad" ingredients.


Oh, yeah, I know I'm not. Just curious about it is all, which is why I started the thread. I understand 

Thanks for all the explanations! I find it all very interesting.


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## Jacksons Mom (Jun 13, 2010)

I actually like Natura. They do trials, have a qualified nutritionist on staff, etc. I like that they also list out their nutrient analysis, and give you the maximums and minimums, ash, etc. It's nice when you need to know that kind of stuff, if your dog is ill, or whatnot. I'm always surprised to see that a lot of times a food listed as "13% fat" actually has a maximum of 18% or 19%. But either way it's good to know. A lot of companies won't disclose that.

Come to think about, I'm almost certain we've never tried their food either. Some of their formulas look pretty decent - I've never paid attention.

I really don't think grains are his issue (in regards to eye boogers). I'm wondering if it's tomato pomace in Fromm. Isn't that essentially a by-product remaining after processing tomatoes into juice, soup and ketchup? I wonder why Fromm would be using that. That's the only ingredient I can pinpoint that's never been in anything else he's eaten.


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## monster'sdad (Jul 29, 2012)

Jacksons Mom said:


> I actually like Natura. They do trials, have a qualified nutritionist on staff, etc. I like that they also list out their nutrient analysis, and give you the maximums and minimums, ash, etc. It's nice when you need to know that kind of stuff, if your dog is ill, or whatnot. I'm always surprised to see that a lot of times a food listed as "13% fat" actually has a maximum of 18% or 19%. But either way it's good to know. A lot of companies won't disclose that.


I'm sure you will figure it out and settle on something. Just imagine if you lived in Pakistan or a place like that and had to buy food.


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## Jacksons Mom (Jun 13, 2010)

monster'sdad said:


> I'm sure you will figure it out and settle on something. Just imagine if you lived in Pakistan or a place like that and had to buy food.


LOL, right. 

Although maybe it would be easier-- so many less options! Hahah. 

I was settled on Acana for a long time. Thanks a lot Monsters for making me doubt my choice!


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## meggels (May 30, 2010)

Monster doesn't like Great Plains Feast, but at some point, I just have to stop listening to ALL of the criticisms online. No food is absolutely perfect, and it comes from a good company and has good enough ingredients, and most importantly, Abbie does AMAZING on it. If I just didn't chill out sometimes, I would constantly be stressed out over what I'm feeding Abbie.


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## Jacksons Mom (Jun 13, 2010)

Alright, stopped in the local Pet Valu today, and was happy to see Go! and Now! available in there. It's like 5 mins away from my house. So much more convenient than going to the store I used to go too, up near our mall, tons of traffic and 25 mins away.

Anyway, they had samples, so I grabbed a sample of Go! Refresh + Renew Chicken, Go! Grain-free Senior (I liked the protein/fat ratios better), Go! Sensitivity Duck, and Now! GF Large Breed (again, picked this one due to protein/fat ratios). He loooveddd the Go! grain-free senior today: http://www.petcurean.com/for-dogs/go/fit-and-free-grain-free-senior So we'll just feed through the samples, and see what he likes best, and seems to do best on... in the short time he's on each bag, I know it's hard to tell. But I can generally get a good idea of how he's going to do on a food fairly quickly.

I recall feeding Go! when it was the Endurance kind, for like one or two bags, and remember his poop being the best it had ever been and no eye boogers. This was a while ago though. They've changed up the formulas a bit, so we'll see.

I've got samples coming in the mail from Dr Tims and Annamaet too, so I guess it will come down to what his favorite is, and how he does on the small sample bags.


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## monster'sdad (Jul 29, 2012)

Jacksons Mom said:


> Alright, stopped in the local Pet Valu today, and was happy to see Go! and Now! available in there. It's like 5 mins away from my house. So much more convenient than going to the store I used to go too, up near our mall, tons of traffic and 25 mins away.
> 
> Anyway, they had samples, so I grabbed a sample of Go! Refresh + Renew Chicken, Go! Grain-free Senior (I liked the protein/fat ratios better), Go! Sensitivity Duck, and Now! GF Large Breed (again, picked this one due to protein/fat ratios). He loooveddd the Go! grain-free senior today: http://www.petcurean.com/for-dogs/go/fit-and-free-grain-free-senior So we'll just feed through the samples, and see what he likes best, and seems to do best on... in the short time he's on each bag, I know it's hard to tell. But I can generally get a good idea of how he's going to do on a food fairly quickly.
> 
> ...


Why even buy food. A little guy like that could just eat samples!!!!!

How is he with big dogs, does he go after them?


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## riddick4811 (Nov 2, 2011)

monster'sdad said:


> Why even buy food. A little guy like that could just eat samples!!!!!
> 
> How is he with big dogs, does he go after them?


That is what I do with Pongo, he eats samples. Last time I went to a dog event, I got enough samples for Pongo to eat for 2 weeks!

I do buy some from Petflow though- whatever trials they have that look decent.


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## Jacksons Mom (Jun 13, 2010)

monster'sdad said:


> Why even buy food. A little guy like that could just eat samples!!!!!
> 
> How is he with big dogs, does he go after them?


Lol, for sure.

No he's not a nippy little thing or your typical 'small dog'. He gets along great with most all dogs. He gives a great name to little guys - he's very active, will go on for miles and miles, he swims all summer long, He'll snark a bit if a big dog is rude or pushy and hurts him, but overall, he's a really mellow dude and gets along with everyone. We are always hanging around my uncle's German Shepherd, they're good buds.


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## monster'sdad (Jul 29, 2012)

riddick4811 said:


> That is what I do with Pongo, he eats samples. Last time I went to a dog event, I got enough samples for Pongo to eat for 2 weeks!
> 
> I do buy some from Petflow though- whatever trials they have that look decent.


Rid,

Call Inukshuk, tell them you want samples and you do rescue. Boy will you get samples. like a few bags.

That company is purely direct ship and when they hear "rescue" they will want to impress you.

It is good food, DaViking I am sure knows it.


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## Jacksons Mom (Jun 13, 2010)

Here he is with his big buddies:


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## monster'sdad (Jul 29, 2012)

Those are very cute pictures.....


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## riddick4811 (Nov 2, 2011)

monster'sdad said:


> Rid,
> 
> Call Inukshuk, tell them you want samples and you do rescue. Boy will you get samples. like a few bags.
> 
> ...


Thanks! I will have to do that. Their food is another that is not sold in my area or at least I've never seen it. Greyhounds would probably do well on it.


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## DaViking (Sep 27, 2011)

riddick4811 said:


> Thanks! I will have to do that. Their food is another that is not sold in my area or at least I've never seen it. Greyhounds would probably do well on it.


They mostly do direct sales in Canada and the US by the pallet or half pallet to customers with many dogs, mushers, rescue groups etc. Lately they have shipped smaller orders too. Their prices are great on larger orders. It's a very good food.


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## meggels (May 30, 2010)

I could probably feed Abbie on my Natural Balance samples, but alas, those formulas don't really work for her...


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## Sapphire-Light (Aug 8, 2010)

Wow those pics are adorable!!.


Pompadour in the other hand is incredible naive around other dogs, when he sees another dog he stars to whine, wag his tail and adopts a playful pose.

He thinks every other dog is willing to make friends or play all day long.

Wit the exception of schanauzers, since most of them bark really loud he just want to avoid them, he never have showed agression wit other dogs, he is just shy and naive.


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## monster'sdad (Jul 29, 2012)

DaViking said:


> They mostly do direct sales in Canada and the US by the pallet or half pallet to customers with many dogs, mushers, rescue groups etc. Lately they have shipped smaller orders too. Their prices are great on larger orders. It's a very good food.


The two foods any normal person would use are $23 and $24 a bag on a 65 bag order of 33# bags plus shipping. You have to figure shipping at $3 - $5 a bag, but the purchase is tax free, which on an average food is about $2.5 a bag.

East Coast less I would think. I have seen it available in New England at a bunch of kennels and events.

You have to wonder why other companies sell similar 26/16 formulas or lower grade foods for $2lb and higher.

Tim does palette sales as well.


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