# I'm no expert...



## slc841063

But does this look like training to you?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R46RllpvQfA

I tried sending her an email, after visiting her site (WCC - Wasatch Canine Camp - Dog Behavior Training, Dog Training Classes, Aggressive Dog Training, Puppy Training in Utah), but didn't get any response. I was asking about her training style and classes. I just don't think this is the way to train, although I do realize there are many forms used.


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## malluver1005

I do see some training there, but it's a little boring...

But, is she suppossed to jank on that halti that hard...? Isn't that bad for the neck...? 

What happens in the very end...? The video kind of cuts off...


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## slc841063

I know the vid stops, just like that, strange...my thing was the yanking too.


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## RawFedDogs

I've seen a lot of poor dog trainers in my life and this is one of them.


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## Ania's Mommy

I only see negative reinforcement. No positive. I agree with RFD, this is a poor trainer.

Richelle


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## SuZQuzie

Is it training? Yes.

Is it a method that I would use? No. My dogs would shut down with so much negative. If I get even a little deterred, they pick up on it and feel like it is their fault and give up. 

Based on the fact that I wouldn't consider the other two dog she is working with "trained" even though she apparently does goes to prove the effectiveness of her methods in the long run.


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## chowder

If you watch the three dogs, there isn't a single one of them that appears happy, engaged, or even slightly interested in the training session. They all look resigned to the fact that they have to be there. Any training session I attend or have with my dogs has to be fun with lots of tail wagging and happy faces on the dogs and the owners. It's just so much easier to teach a dog when he is happy and eager to learn.

I just read thru her website and it's pretty funny. She uses all the buzz words from the "Dog Whisperer" tv show and even has a red pit bull that she named "Daddy" just like the one on the show! There must be a hundred references to "calm-assertive" behavior.


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## SuZQuzie

I was thinking about this some more and it brings up a reason why there are so many "bad" dog trainers.

In the horse back riding world, there are competitions that nearly every trainer either competes in or has students compete in. These trainers will constantly continue their education themselves by attending clinics under other top riders and trainers. They will also compete to show off their skills, their training and to get a feel of whether or not their training is up to industry standard. If their training is inadequate, their riders and mounts would be unsuccessfully prepared for the tests of the show ring.

There are similar "checkpoints" throughout the professional world. Engineers bring their products to trade shows to hopefully win awards. Scientists submit their papers to journals to be reviewed by other scientists. CPAs must have their clients' taxes auditted. Writers are able to win recognition and awards for their work. However, if any professional's work does not meet industry standard, they fail in one way or another. 

For some reason, there is a surplus of dog trainers that feel that they don't need to meet a standard. This original trainer feels that for a dog to remain in a general area when commanded to "stay" is adequate while, for my dogs, a "wait" (my "stay" command) means to not move a foot and be ready for the next command. It is a different standard of training. Mine will (hopefully) meet "industry standards" in the obedience ring while hers would not for multiple reasons. 

The dog trainer I use currently competes her own dogs in obedience, rally o, and agility along with attending seminars and clinics regularly to maintain and improve her level of training. I feel this is a critical trait for a dog or horse trainer. My horse trainer also competes frequently and, despite winning an Olympic silver medal in 2008, STILL gets regular lessons regardless of her accomplishments.


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## rannmiller

Haha I looked into them as a possibility as my new puppy but RFD pointed out how not good they look. After seeing that video, I'm really glad I had already decided not to go there! I'm gonna look into a place called Skye's dog training or something like that.


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## JayJayisme

Man, I hate to say this but seeing that video makes me want to smack that *woman*! 

Those leash yanks are totally uncalled for and violent. And as everyone mentioned, no positive reinforcement at all. Towards the end of the clip the first pit turns over on its back and is totally submissive but no acknowledgment or praise from the "trainer" for submitting. No praise for anything any of the dogs did right. Shameful.


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## malluver1005

And if you guys take a closer look, she does that "snappy finger" cesar millan thingy ...!!!


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## slc841063

I wouldn't be so biased here, but as I watched several of her other videos, it appears that all she does is yank, pop, and use the e-collar. While I'm not ultimately opposed to using different training tools (tools being the operative word here), it seems that this is only method/technique that she uses. What set me off was the severity in which she used them.

I've found that my dogs (past/present) and friends dogs learn differently and using the same method on different dogs doesn't always work for each dog's unique personality. I've found some dogs like to please people and some others like to please themselves (don't laugh)! I've also had success in tools like; little pops, clickers, and treats.

Anyway, my two cents worth to my original post


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## wags

Well thats no Gloria Stillwell!!!!!!!!!!!


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## malluver1005

wags said:


> Well thats no Gloria Stillwell!!!!!!!!!!!


haha, I think you mean Victoria Stilwell, unless your talking about a different person? :biggrin:


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## wags

malluver1005 said:


> haha, I think you mean Victoria Stilwell, unless your talking about a different person? :biggrin:


Ha OMG you dont know how many times I talk about that show and for some reason she is Gloria, Victoria, Or I say you know the show with the one with the british accent the dog person UGH!~ wow I just choose a name and go with it haha! And yes I mix up my dogs names also!!!!!!! UGH! Thanks for the polite way of putting it haha! Yes this is who I was talking about! I love her show and if I cant watch it I tape it! UGH my memory Names UGH! I am bad at them! 
But that did make me laugh when I saw what you wrote ! Yikes Ginkoba doesnt work haha! I'm proof!!!!!!:biggrin:


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## malluver1005

wags said:


> Ha OMG you dont know how many times I talk about that show and for some reason she is Gloria, Victoria, Or I say you know the show with the one with the british accent the dog person UGH!~ wow I just choose a name and go with it haha! And yes I mix up my dogs names also!!!!!!! UGH! Thanks for the polite way of putting it haha! Yes this is who I was talking about! I love her show and if I cant watch it I tape it! UGH my memory Names UGH! I am bad at them!
> But that did make me laugh when I saw what you wrote ! Yikes Ginkoba doesnt work haha! I'm proof!!!!!!:biggrin:


Yeah, I've seen her show. I don't watch it often, but I like her better than Cesar!!!


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## wags

I like Victoria ( yeah got it right haha) the best out of the two also! But I do sometimes just to see the dogs watch cesar!


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## geisthexe

After watching the video and a couple more of hers. 

First: I would NEVER train in a halti .. (I personally hate those things.) I dont like the fact that you can damage the neck and spine with them from all the yanking. Also to mention you start in one of them you will always train in one of them. And last they look like muzzles so why would you want your dog to look like it is a BAD dog. 

Second: Her method of training has NO method. It is something she is comming up with as I have never seen it trained at a seminar or in all the training I have been trained in. It is a problem waiting to happen this is why I believe her video got cut. If you watch the very end it looks like a possible (I mean possible) dog fight or ruff play that she does not want you to see as having three dogs in an area could end in a fight due to ruff play. 









Third: You NEVER stick three dogs in a room together w/o others being there to help in a situation. If they are there she should have had them shown just so you know NOT to do this alone. If you watch the dog (Ambull) it is a young dog that she is Forcing to do what she wants like the other two. It possibly has very minimum training done at this point so it does not understand to leave the other dog thru distractions. (hense GSD is a distraction) 

Four: If you watch the rear of the GSD it has a slight limp in the rear as if it has been hurt or has HD .. 

JMHO


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## Todd

I definantly agree 100% with you guys. This is very poor training. Violence and negativity is never the answer. I have found that the absolute most successful methods of training focus on positive reinforcement. Not only can negativity discourage the dog/make him perform worse, it can also harm the bond between dog and dog owner.


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## geisthexe

Todd said:


> I definantly agree 100% with you guys. This is very poor training. Violence and negativity is never the answer. I have found that the absolute most successful methods of training focus on positive reinforcement. Not only can negativity discourage the dog/make him perform worse, it can also harm the bond between dog and dog owner.


You need to have both positive / negative reinforcement so you have balance .. Just like teaching anything .. 

Its how to take the positive and the negative levels. 
Meaning:
Pet Store Training = All positive and passive. No training involved for a good balanced trained dog. 

Bad Trainers = Most do not educate themselves enough to learn that negative does not mean be abussive. So they take there training to demanding the dog to submit to them. 

Proper use of Positive / Negative Reinforcement
Positive is a key in keeping the dog motivated in what you are tying to get them to do. 
Negative is bringing focus back to what you are trying to do w/o aggression. 

Deb


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## JayJayisme

geisthexe said:


> You need to have both positive / negative reinforcement so you have balance .. Just like teaching anything ..


Oh jeez, this ought to open a can of worms.


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## DaneMama

Yeah, I'm not even going to open it...


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## RawFedDogs

geisthexe said:


> You need to have both positive / negative reinforcement so you have balance .. Just like teaching anything ..


Where in the world do you get an idea like that. Why would you ever use negarive reinforcement if you had the knowledge to get any behavior you want with positive? There is nothing you can't teach a dog or any other animal with positive reinforcement. Negative reinforcement in and of itself is automaticlaly cruel.



> Bad Trainers = Most do not educate themselves enough to learn that negative does not mean be abussive. So they take there training to demanding the dog to submit to them.


As a trainer with 15 years of professional experience, I consider myself a pretty good trainer. Using negative reinforcement unnecessarily is always abussive. There is no way it can be justified. You can teach any animal any behavior using positive reinforcement. I have personally worked with birds of prey, mice, rats, cats, dogs, AND chickens. I have seen gorillas, elephants, orangs, rhino's, many speices of exotic birds, otters, dolphins, killer whales and many other speiceis I can't remember right now trained with 100% positive training. Most all of the professional wild animal trainers now use 100% positive training. Most of the top dog trainers use 100% positive training.



> Proper use of Positive / Negative Reinforcement
> Positive is a key in keeping the dog motivated in what you are tying to get them to do.
> Negative is bringing focus back to what you are trying to do w/o aggression.


A good trainer can get his animal's attention anytime anywhere without using negativity. The very first thing you teach an animal, no matter what it is, is to give you attention anytime anywhere.


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## geisthexe

First please tell me that you have NEVER in your 15 yrs of being a trainer .. 
Have you ever had to “put a dog butt to the floor, b/c s/he will not understand your sit method? 
Ever have to pull your dogs leash to get the dog to come back to you b/c they are not listening? 
Have you ever had to jingle the leash to refocus the dog to your attention? 

This would all be Negative Re-enforcement. Does not mean you are being mean it means you are asking for what you desire w/o aggression then bringing it back to positive 

We all have our own training methods 

And about the top 10 trainers out there please enlighten me on their names, b/c I can name you some of the most famous trainers in our country alone that all use Pos/Neg users and use it to get desires in their dogs and they have proven it time and time again just on the Schutzhund field alone. These are folks who have made it to International Events (Nationals) Not to mention are Judges for this type of work. 

Oh let me also point out that our own government (police / military) also train pos/neg. so they can get their desire results. 

Been training horses (trainer at stables) since I was 15 yrs old
Been training dogs (Obedience) since I was 18 yrs old 
Worked in Zoos in CA 
Been a Vet Tech since 1996

I am not here to fight with you or anyone else .. I am here to learn as much as anyone and to help out when I can with my knowledge. If you wish me not to be here then just say .. It’s only a forum on the net.


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## RawFedDogs

Let me point out that during my early training years, I didn't understand positive methods. It was only the last 6 or 7 years that I became a positive only trainer. So I will answer the questions based on my last 5 years of training.



geisthexe said:


> First please tell me that you have NEVER in your 15 yrs of being a trainer ..
> Have you ever had to “put a dog butt to the floor, b/c s/he will not understand your sit method?


Nope



> Ever have to pull your dogs leash to get the dog to come back to you b/c they are not listening?


Nope



> Have you ever had to jingle the leash to refocus the dog to your attention?


Don't even use a leash unless I'm teaching loose leash walking.



> This would all be Negative Re-enforcement. Does not mean you are being mean it means you are asking for what you desire w/o aggression then bringing it back to positive


Yes, all those are negative reinforcement. Not needed if you are adept at positive reinforcement training. 



> And about the top 10 trainers out there please enlighten me on their names, b/c I can name you some of the most famous trainers in our country alone that all use Pos/Neg users and use it to get desires in their dogs and they have proven it time and time again just on the Schutzhund field alone.


"Famous" and "Good" are not the same thing. Cesar Milan is famous but a mediocre trainer.



> Oh let me also point out that our own government (police / military) also train pos/neg. so they can get their desire results.


Let me point out that is quickly changing. More and more police departments are chaging to completely positive training methods.



> Been training horses (trainer at stables) since I was 15 yrs old
> Been training dogs (Obedience) since I was 18 yrs old
> Worked in Zoos in CA
> Been a Vet Tech since 1996


Yeah, I know a LOT of trainers who have been training for 30 years or more who say things like, "I've been training this way for 30 years and it works so why change?"

Animal training as made a lot of advancements in the last 15 years but there will always be the stubborn ones who refuse to change their old outdate methods because they have been successful with them in the past and see no reason to change. They are afraid of change. They are afraid they won't be as successful and in the very beginning they won't be. It takes a little time, effort, and study to become proficient at 100% positive reinforcement.



> I am not here to fight with you or anyone else .. I am here to learn as much as anyone and to help out when I can with my knowledge. If you wish me not to be here then just say .. It’s only a forum on the net.


You seem to be knowledgable and are an asset to the board. Of course no one wishes you to leave. Don't expect everyone to agree with everything you say just as they don't agree with everything I say. I like discussions about diet and training. I am very confident in my knowledge of both and often express my views as I'm sure you will also. :smile:


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## thebird_17

To all of you who have replied, that "bitch" (to quote one of you), is my wife. Thanks for hurting her feelings with your ridiculous comments. When youre posting something like this, provide some ADVICE, not a bunch of put downs and insults. What exactly does this have to do with dog food in the first place? Can we remove this post please?


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## jdatwood

thebird_17 said:


> To all of you who have replied, that "bitch" (to quote one of you), is my wife. Thanks for hurting her feelings with your ridiculous comments. When youre posting something like this, provide some ADVICE, not a bunch of put downs and insults. What exactly does this have to do with dog food in the first place? Can we remove this post please?


I won't be removing the post. Your wife is a good example of how NOT to train a dog. 

There actually IS some good advice being given if you actually read the thread.

Sure, your wife is being called out for her archaic training methods but there is a good discussion on what proper training should be.

It has nothing to do with dog food which is why the post was made in our Dog Training forum.


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## malluver1005

thebird_17 said:


> What exactly does this have to do with dog food in the first place


Were in this thread do we mention dog food...?


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## jdatwood

malluver1005 said:


> Were in this thread do we mention dog food...?


I think his gripe is that this is DogFOODChat.com so why would we ever discuss training or anything else dog related?


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## JayJayisme

Well it was my post that the mods cleaned up. Frankly I knew I was ushing the envelope with it and I didn't think it would last in this thread more than a day. But the fact that it has is testament to the overwhelming disdain in this particular community for the "training methods" the person in this video is using. To be frank, when I wrote my original post it was right after I watched the video and I thought to myself, "What would I do if I saw this woman treating MY dog like this?". I was downright angry. 

I stand by my original post, cleaned up or otherwise. "thebird_17", if I saw your wife treating my dog like this, I wouldn't hesitate to give her a taste of her own medicine. She needs to find a new line of work. Her "methods" are totally unacceptable and downright abusive.


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## DaneMama

JayJayisme said:


> Well it was my post that the mods cleaned up. Frankly I knew I was ushing the envelope with it and I didn't think it would last in this thread more than a day. But the fact that it has is testament to the overwhelming disdain in this particular community for the "training methods" the person in this video is using. To be frank, when I wrote my original post it was right after I watched the video and I thought to myself, "What would I do if I saw this woman treating MY dog like this?". I was downright angry.
> 
> I stand by my original post, cleaned up or otherwise. "thebird_17", if I saw your wife treating my dog like this, I wouldn't hesitate to give her a taste of her own medicine. She needs to find a new line of work. Her "methods" are totally unacceptable and downright abusive.


I only cleaned it up and not deleted it because everyone here has a right to their own opinion, but we must be as respectful to eachother as possible. I think in the terms of use agreement is says no foul language, and to that we must all stick to no matter how angry we get. And to me, not using foul language can almost come across more influential than using it in the first place :biggrin:


Just use big words... LOL


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## CorgiPaws

When I was working at a boarding/ training/ grooming/ daycare facility in the area that this place is, I had heard some sketchy things about her training methods being on the borderline of downright abuse. Being that I worked at a place that did training, I never felt the need to look into her business as I already had my own. 
She has removed the video that was posted... which I find a bit funny to be honest. If she had true belief that she did nothing wrong, why would she remove it? SOunds like a guilty conscience.

In looking at the website, even without seeing the video, this would NOT be somewhere I would take my dogs. A cluttered garage is not what I would call a proper training facility, first of al... second of all... a lot of things on the website rub me the wrong way.



> Basic Training: $150 for two sessions that are about 2-3 hours long, it also comes with a free day of drop off training. $50 for each extra session and/or each extra dog.


two to three hour long sessions are too much for a beginner. When I get puppies we do about fiftenn five to ten minute sessions per day. When training becomes boring to the dog, they lose interest in learning what you want them to. 



> Puppy Training: $200 for three sessions that are about two hours long, it also comes with a free day of drop off training. $50 for each extra session and/or dog.


drop off training for a puppy? kidding me, right? That's when it's MOST important to be doing the training with your own dog, not sending them away to some mediocre trainer to do it for you! Shame on dog owners.



> E-Touch ™ Training: $700 for unlimited sessions. Price includes your own electric dog training collar ($250 value), and a free day of drop off training.
> .
> 
> Boot Camp: $1,400 for two to four weeks in my home. Price does not vary if training takes less than four weeks, if board and train goes longer than four weeks it’s $300 per extra week. Price includes your own electric dog training collar ($250 value) and two follow-up sessions.


I have NEVER EVER heard of a good trainer using torture devices to get a dog to do what they want. This is entirely unacceptable, I can't believe this woman is totally okay with strapping these devices around their necks in the name of training. Some people really are the scum at the bottom of the bucket, eh? If I were to ever pick my dog up from some place with a shock collar, there's be lawsuits.



> Treadmill Training: $50 per hour to get your dog to properly walk on the treadmill


..wtf?


I guess my point is, there's a lot to be said about trainers who blatently advertise that they are animal abusers. Obviously enough people fall for her crap for her to be in business. There are so many other BETTER trainers out there, and in that area, I can name two or three that are miles above this quack.


I wonder if she's in the Cesar Milan fan club. lol.


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