# Raw feeding a sick dog



## boxermom (May 15, 2010)

My 8 year old boxer started skipping meals and losing her appetite for about a month this started in March/April. After a visit to the vet and nothing physically wrong with Cookie we assumed she was being finicky about her kibble. At that time she was given her yearly shots and after that day she did not eat anything for about 4 days and started with vomitting and diarrhea. After $1200 in bloodwork and utrasound we still have not found the cause, we are treating with meds for IBD but Vet says could also be lymphosarcoma and only way to confirm is with endoscopy which I can not afford at this time ($800-$900).

Long story short, she is now on Pred, Metronadizole, and started today on Imuran. Her diarrhea is better but she has no appetite. She will not have anything to do with chicken and rice (vet recommended bland diet) and just to get her to eat I have started making boiled burger meat. Last night while fixing her dinner I noticed she was interested in and ate the raw burger with an appetite I had not seen in her for a while. So I gave her some raw meat with the I/D kibble which she threw up. The food came back up totally undigested in the middle of the night (no stomach fluids or anything else with it almost looked like I had just put it in her bowl).

She drinks well and the Pred should also increase appetite but this morning she will not look at the burger meat (raw or cooked). I did not even try to add any kibble in it because I could tell she was feeling very sick.

To post pictures of her would bring tears, but to say the least she is very skinny and although the meds seem to control her symptoms I just can't manage to get her to eat. I think raw diet may be the answer but need tips on how to get such a sick picky dog to make the transition. 

I have two questions for experienced raw feeder or owners of IBD pets.

1. could it be that raw burger has too much fat? what other meats should I start with or are organs more easily digestable ?

2. Could it be the Imuran causing the inappetence, would you recommend the raw diet and only add the Imuran back in after that. She seemed to be doing pretty well on the PRed and Metranodizale but when we tried to reduce the Pred she had rebounded to vomitting and diarrhea and that is why we are trying Imuran now as well.

Any suggestions are appreciated.


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## DaneMama (Jun 27, 2008)

I would say that a raw diet would be the savior to this dog. It also might be that she really does have some form of cancer that is making her feel ill all the time which is heartbreaking but a possibility. At this point getting her to eat anything is important. This might mean cooking meat for her for a while til she gets her strength back.

It's also a very good possibility that the raw burger was just too fatty for her. But it is also a possibility that the mixture of raw and kibble in the same meal upset her tummy, which is very common. Beef is a very rich meat as well, and typically isn't added into a raw diet until several months in. 

So I would try giving her cooked chicken that is seasoned with spices and see if she will take it. Then cut back on cooking and seasoning it until it's more and more raw. Then try adding in bone in pieces of chicken. You might at first have to help her out with the bone by whacking it with a hammer a bit or grinding it. Feeding just cooked chicken is not a balanced and complete diet, they need the nutrition from raw bones as well as organ meats (but let's not worry about those for a long time).

I wouldn't stop any of the medications your vet gave to you. But I'm curious why your vet is prescribing an immunosupressant?


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## boxermom (May 15, 2010)

Things may be turning around for my girl, we went from explosive watery diarrhea 3-4x day to only one mushy cowpatty today. I took your advice and kept her on the meds, and basically spoiled her by given her whatever she wants wihch yesterday was a handful of kibble, half a can of z/d, 3 chicken wings and the meat from two chicken quarters (raw). I offered the cooked meat and rice, and also sweet potatoes and raw ground turkey, and cottage cheese but she did not pay attention to any of them. I will continue on the z/d, raw chicken, and free feed the kibble and see how we do on that program. 

What is the recommendation with eggs, would it be a concern with IBD / allergies ?

My neighbor suggested cooking it with some veggies in it (rice, potatoes, peas, carrots) or is it better to go raw with that as well ? During our easter egg hunt she did enjoy a boiled egg with egg shell and all.... would the calcium in the shell help bind her stools or is it considered an allergy food ? Thanks for your help, I really hope in time we can become a "raw diet" success story.


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## DaneMama (Jun 27, 2008)

So she did eat the raw bone in chicken without a problem? If so I would stick to that and leave *everything* else out. With IBD dogs, limited ingredient diets is the best way to go, since then you know exactly what is going into their system and how to eliminate things if you see a problem. 

I wouldn't suggest adding any raw veggies to your dog's diet because she doesn't have the capacity to be able to digest them and most likely this will cause more digestive upset than provide nutrition. If you must add veggies to her diet, you will have to cook the heck out of them, puree them or mash them for them to be of any use to her. Dogs are not meant to eat these things, they can't digest them in their natural state. Vegetables are not a requirement for dogs to survive. None of my dogs have had any veggies for years and they are as healthy as can be.

If she doesn't eat bone in chicken you will be required to add some kind of carbohydrate/fiber source to her diet. She needs something to add bulk to her stool or all you will see is diarrhea. Raw bones provide tons more nutrition AND bind stool to create ideal bowel movements. Carbohydrates (rice, potatoes, corn, etc) are irritants and do not provide much in the way of nutrition EXCEPT adding fiber/bulk to your dog's stool. If you do choose to add in a carb source I would suggest white rice, because it is less irritating to your dog's digestive tract and is more digestable than the others.

Whole eggs are a great source of well rounded nutrition. I wouldn't feed more than one egg per day though. Egg shells are a great source of calcium as well as other essential minerals. You can feed them raw or cooked, raw being better nutritionally.

I'm glad to hear that she is already doing a bit better. Keep us updated on her progress and don't hesitate to ask questions about anything.


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## boxermom (May 15, 2010)

Cookie is still in good spirits but now turning her nose up at the z/d food as well, and I think the cooked chicken and rice definitely gives her runnier stools. 

I gave her chicken necks last night and cooked chicken and rice and she had pudding like poops followed by runny diarrhea. I'm going to cut out the rice all together. I picked up chicken backs and chicken necks and may just go full raw starting today. 

Should I start with backs or consider just the necks for now since they clean up and seem much leaner than the backs. I'm removing all skin and fat I can get out, since this food will be leaner do I still follow the guideline of feeding 2% body weight ? 

She is so skinny now, maybe 40-45lbs that a pound of food seems like too little. What do you think ? I don't want to rush her and cause more problems but I don't want to starve her she is too thin already.


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## RawFedDogs (Jun 16, 2008)

boxermom said:


> Should I start with backs or consider just the necks for now since they clean up and seem much leaner than the backs.


I would start with backs because they are bonier. You want a lot of bone at this point.



> I'm removing all skin and fat I can get out, since this food will be leaner do I still follow the guideline of feeding 2% body weight ?


Yes 



> She is so skinny now, maybe 40-45lbs that a pound of food seems like too little. What do you think ?


Over feeding can cause digestive upset and that is what we are trying to avoid so I would stick to the smaller portions for now until things get straightened out. Once she is good, you can up the amount you feed. A few weeks on 2% won't hurt even a thin dog.


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## Doc (Jan 17, 2009)

From my notes on IBD:

"Inflammatory Bowel Disease is not a digestive disorder but rather a physical one. The oxidative damage to the intestinal wall affects an increase in intestinal motility resulting in diarrhea and vomiting. Steroids, anti-diarrhea pharmaceuticals, antibiotics, digestive enzymes will offer only temporary relief. Successful treatment can only be accomplished by healing the damaged intestinal wall."

There are some antioxidants/vitamins that should help in the healing process.


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## RawFedDogs (Jun 16, 2008)

OR just feeding Meat, bones, and organs by themselves will take care of the problem. Nothing else needed. I've seen it happen many times. You see, the digestive tract was designed to digest meat, bones, and organs. Anything else just puts a strain on it. Taking the strain off eliminates the problem.


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## DaneMama (Jun 27, 2008)

IBD is a condition that is highly multifactorial. Not only does diet play a major role but also temperament and disposition. Nervous and skittish dogs are more prone to getting IBD. 

The best way to combat this disorder is to get the dog on a highly restrictive diet, meat, bone and organ only are ideal and keep that consistent until no symptoms are seen. One must also provide to the best of their ability a stable and stress free environment. Stress is one of the leading causes that create flare ups. You could be doing a strict, highly restrictive diet and just change the dog's environment and see episodes of digestive upset. Granted this is subjective and case by case, some dogs are worse than others and it takes them longer to repair damage of the intestinal tract. Inflammation and irritation over long periods of time degrade function of the intestines and this is something that doesn't happen over night. It can take weeks or months.



Doc said:


> There are some antioxidants/vitamins that should help in the healing process.


Maybe state what those might be? That would be helpful to the OP.


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## jdatwood (Apr 13, 2009)

Doc said:


> From my notes on IBD:
> 
> "Inflammatory Bowel Disease is not a digestive disorder but rather a physical one. The oxidative damage to the intestinal wall affects an increase in intestinal motility resulting in diarrhea and vomiting. Steroids, anti-diarrhea pharmaceuticals, antibiotics, digestive enzymes will offer only temporary relief. Successful treatment can only be accomplished by healing the damaged intestinal wall."
> 
> There are some antioxidants/vitamins that should help in the healing process.


How funny... from "your" notes? 

It's copied word for word from this sales page
Orthomolecular Specialties ? New Concepts in Pet Health Care - Alternative Pet Health Care 

Nice try though Doc



danemama08 said:


> Maybe state what those might be? That would be helpful to the OP.


They're probably contained in the supplement being sold on the page he got his "notes" from :biggrin:


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## boxermom (May 15, 2010)

I'm banking on the raw food but will consider supplementing. Based on what I have learned online regarding IBD in dogs I have started supplementing with L-glutamine for the inflamation and used slippery elm tincture as well as a homeopathic blend for upset stomach all with minimal improvement. I picked up refills on her meds and her vet told me he was looking into the options for adding vitamins not sure if B12, folate or along those lines. He is reserved in his prognosis since Cookie has been so slow to respond to the current meds.

I mentioned to him that I've chosen to raw feed and he warned about the salmonella and other bacteria and using caution with my kids but he did not protest too much since even he is running out of options.

If anyone else has had good success with IBD and raw fed alone and/or with specific supplements I would welcome the additional information.


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## Doc (Jan 17, 2009)

jdatwood said:


> How funny... from "your" notes?
> 
> It's copied word for word from this sales page
> Orthomolecular Specialties ? New Concepts in Pet Health Care - Alternative Pet Health Care
> ...


They are in my notes. I put them in quotes. Which is the appropriate way of stating someone else words. I did not state they were my words. Besides, if they were they would not be in quotes. English 101 - Harbrace College Handbook. Or did you forget that?

Nice try jakwood


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## harrkim120 (Feb 2, 2010)

Doc...do you work for this company or something?  This company that you pulled the quote from also makes Mega-C which I believe you were talking about in another thread.


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## DaneMama (Jun 27, 2008)

Doc said:


> They are in my notes. I put them in quotes. Which is the appropriate way of stating someone else words. I did not state they were my words. Besides, if they were they would not be in quotes. English 101 - Harbrace College Handbook. Or did you forget that?
> 
> Nice try jakwood


When you say "this is from MY notes" you imply that they are YOUR words. Putting them in quotes in the context you used made it seem that you were just quoting your notes, not someone elses words. If you copy word for word someone elses words you HAVE to reference it or at least state where you got the information from or it can be considered plagarism.

On another note, I tend to be skeptical of claims that someone states when they are trying to sell a product. Of course they are going to tell you it works, how else would they make money? Unless they have proof that their product works I'm skpetical to believe what the company says based completely off of a marketing pitch. I'm certainly not saying this product doesn't work, I didn't read anything about it or research it.

Boxermom- I have known many people with IBD dogs have wonderful success with switching to raw, many of the members here can attest to that. The member CorgiPaws was in your same shoes with one of her dogs. Constant diarrhea and digestive issues. Her vet finally just said that her dog had an intolerance to carbohydrates. So his fix was a carb ridden expensive RX diet, lifelong drug therapy with steroids and antibiotics. She was smart enough to see that the real solution to the problem was to eliminate all carbs from his
diet. She switched him to raw and he hasn't had an issue since. I believe she switched him about 9 months ago or so. I'm sure she could tell her story a lot better than I did. Grissom her dog was our poster child for the success of raw feeding!


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## Doc (Jan 17, 2009)

Is this an acedemic exercise? If so I'll gladely refence the book - not web-site - where this information - which is contained in quotes as needed when they are someone elses words. I have not implied anything danemamma, This information came from note, notes I have been tking for years and are in even in quotes in my notes; meaning that they are someone eles words not mine. If they were my words, they would not be in quotes. Is the question here about IBD or how to reference something in a public forum? You make the call, as you always do, and I guess the rest of us will have to follow your rules or be placed in front of your firing squad.

I do not work for any company in the pet industry. I read everything I can find on a particular subject - particularly diseases and nutrition. Dogs may do well with their IBD on a raw diet but some folks do not feed raw so I offered a viable alternative. If that isn't needed, why ask the question if everything can be cured by a raw diet?

Danamomma, if IBD is mutifactorial as you claim in one of your post, I would like to see the study you pulled that information from. Or at least a reference to it.

If we are to quote references, I would prefer the APA style.



danemama08 said:


> When you say "this is from MY notes" you imply that they are YOUR words. Putting them in quotes in the context you used made it seem that you were just quoting your notes, not someone elses words. If you copy word for word someone elses words you HAVE to reference it or at least state where you got the information from or it can be considered plagarism.
> 
> On another note, I tend to be skeptical of claims that someone states when they are trying to sell a product. Of course they are going to tell you it works, how else would they make money? Unless they have proof that their product works I'm skpetical to believe what the company says based completely off of a marketing pitch. I'm certainly not saying this product doesn't work, I didn't read anything about it or research it.
> 
> ...


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## Doc (Jan 17, 2009)

harrkim120 said:


> Doc...do you work for this company or something?  This company that you pulled the quote from also makes Mega-C which I believe you were talking about in another thread.


No I do not. And I do not use Mega C on my dogs. There are other products on the market that are similar but the Mega C has scientific data backing it up. That is only reason I mentioned a brand name.


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## DaneMama (Jun 27, 2008)

Doc, the only reason I responded was because I found it strange that you posted text word for word off of a website and I got the impression from your post that these were your words. You certainly don't have to reference every little thing. Just found it curious, that's all.


Funnily enough what I stated about IBD I learned from a CE class at a Purina seminar a few weeks ago. I posted the notes that I took from the lecture up on here afterwards. Here's the link to my notes:

http://dogfoodchat.com/forum/general-dog-discussion/3004-seminar-notes.html


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## Doc (Jan 17, 2009)

danemama08 said:


> Doc, the only reason I responded was because I found it strange that you posted text word for word off of a website and I got the impression from your post that these were your words. You certainly don't have to reference every little thing. Just found it curious, that's all.
> 
> 
> Funnily enough what I stated about IBD I learned from a CE class at a Purina seminar a few weeks ago. I posted the notes that I took from the lecture up on here afterwards. Here's the link to my notes:
> ...


Thanks for the link, I look forward to reading your information. Perhaps the web-site used the same information from the book the quote came from? The book was first published in 1981 then again in '93.

How was the Purina seminar? Sometimes the information is very good until they start pushiing their products!


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## DaneMama (Jun 27, 2008)

Doc said:


> Thanks for the link, I look forward to reading your information. Perhaps the web-site used the same information from the book the quote came from? The book was first published in 1981 then again in '93.
> 
> How was the Purina seminar? Sometimes the information is very good until they start pushiing their products!


I was skeptical of going because I didn't want it to be a full day of Purina pushers shoving their product down my throat. But I was pleasantly surprised. There were several key note speakers on several different topics, one of them being IBD. I learned a ton that day all things considered. If anything it just further reinforced why I feed raw. During the lunch break the vets at my table started a raw bashing fest and it was pathetic how little they knew about it but how willing they were to bash it. It's like vets that know nothing of raw dislike those people who feed it because they feel we know nothing about nutrition, but by bashing raw they are just hypocritical because they know nothing about raw. Irritating and frustrating. You'd think people intelligent enough to be a vet would be smart enough to put two and two together and realize that raw is the best and healthiest thing to feed. Oh well. I respect the knowledge they do have in regards to healthcare and medical issues. And contrary to popular belief vets really do care for the well being of their patients and not just the bottom line. 

As far as the quote, I'm sure it was taken from the book and put on the website. But I'm not too worried about it.


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## boxermom (May 15, 2010)

I was on a day long trip yesterday, and because the Prednisone calls for more frequent walks I left Cookie with my mom along with her meds and chicken backs. She called me concerned about 6-7 pm that she had walked her a handful of times and never pooped, go figure I get excited when she does'nt go and she gets worried. lol

By the way, the first few times I fed Cookie raw my husband questioned me as to why I was feeding raw and why not just cook it, and I did get a bit defensive and told him that it was better than watching her starve and if that is the only thing she wants then that is what I will feed. No more discussion after that on raw feeding but I guess he noticed all the links and information I was saving on the PC and he started reading up on it. Now whenever our friends and family ask us about Cookie he goes on and on about raw feeding, I think he will try to convert all our friends. Its funny when you figure out things on your own its better then somebody just telling you to do it, I think for him just seeing her appetite for raw that impresses him the most considering how bad she had gotten about eating.

I'm very impressed by the wealth of information being shared in this forum, I do agree that most vets do care for their patients and are sympathetic to owner's feelings but they do not always have all the answers. I don't understand why people react with skepticism to what seems like a common sense approach to feeding, I dont get it... danemama, awesome that you make it to the seminars I'll check out your notes later.


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## DaneMama (Jun 27, 2008)

There is no better "proof" that raw works than the results you see first hand. Keep up the good work and keep us posted. 

I wouldn't worry too much about her not having a bowel movement. Raw bone in the digestive tract acts as a constipator and binds stool very firmly, which is why raw bones must be fed. If too much bone is given they have powdery stool, but not enough you will see soft stools. If we don't feed bone in meat for 2 days, we start to see sticky dark colored stool. You shouldn't go without feeding bone until a month or so into raw feeding because your dog, given her history, should be switched very slowly and methodically. 

Don't hesitate to post up any questions you might have.


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## CorgiPaws (Mar 31, 2009)

How did I miss this?

Well, without rambling on and on and on, I'll summarize in about 4 words: been there, done that. 

I had issues JUST like this with my Grissom, pretty much the same story. Test after test, "normal" result after "normal" result, when clearly this poor pup was wasting away before my eyes, and knowing there HAD to be a reason, no matter what the tests said. 
First they thought colitis, then IBD, then SIBO, then IBD again, then my vet determined (not to be confused with diagnosed, because there wasn't a test to confirm) that excessive carbohydrates in his diet were enabling harmful things (he mostly pointed out bacteria, which I don't think would cause THAT big of an issue, but there were a list of things that I honestly don't remember) to take over his system. 
He recommended a Eukanuba RX "Low Residue" diet as well as biweekly steroid treatments, and daily antibiotics in a dose so high he told me that I'd need to watch for loss of any depth perception (careful around stairs and anything he could fall off of) inability to walk straight, walking into things, and dragging his back legs. He even offered to bandage his back legs up so he didn't tear them up by dragging them all over. 
I put Grissom on raw the next morning, and literally seven months of Hell seemingly ended overnight. I'll link the old thread that i posted when I got back from the vet that day. 

http://dogfoodchat.com/forum/raw-feeding/1724-back-vet-visit-undoubtedly-sealed-deal.html

And his before (sick) and after (healthy on raw) photos. 
http://dogfoodchat.com/forum/pictures/2741-grissom-before-after-raw.html


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## boxermom (May 15, 2010)

Thanks for the post, better later than never :tongue: I appreciate the link back to your original post on Grissom, can I tell you that Cookie had problems with mange as well... another similarity between our two babies. Vet gave her Imuran because nothing else was working well but he cautioned me that he was concerned about her immune system since she had couple of bouts of mange out of the blue (ie. no change in diet, schedule, or other stress to wreak havoc on her immune system.) Actually, I joked with my vet because my husband was laid off from work and home more often than usual so I told him it was the hubby stressing her out.

And as for the side effects from the antibiotics I have noticed Cookie missing a step here and there but she has been tolerating the meds fairly well. I am going to space out the Imuran to every other day and check with the vet as to how to phase it out, we had solid poops today and she is still as hungry as ever for raw :smile:


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## DaneMama (Jun 27, 2008)

She very well may be having bouts of mange because of a depressed immune system on inadequate kibble. I am confident to say that the increase in complete nutrition will help her more than the drugs ever could. I wouldn't stop them right now but taper them off and see how it goes.


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## boxermom (May 15, 2010)

danemama08 said:


> If we don't feed bone in meat for 2 days, we start to see sticky dark colored stool. You shouldn't go without feeding bone until a month or so into raw feeding because your dog, given her history, should be switched very slowly and methodically.


You are amazing, you hit right on my next question. When she finally had a bowel movevement it was solid, small stool... more on the dark, and sticky side like you mentioned but I also noticed what seemed like blood residue. I imagine her intestines are in pretty sad shape so I would not be surprised if it is from her or could it be residues of the raw food ?

She did get some chicken necks because some of the packages marked as chicken backs at Publix actually were necks. Mom called me to let me know about the mix up and I went ahead and had her feed necks since I did not want her skipping breakfast. I'm stocking up on chicken backs at another store where they have it on sale and their backs are skinless.

My husband and I are amazed how quickly she is coming along. I actually called my friend and offered her my left over dog food and treats, we are both convinced this is the way to go and my husband is already trying to figure out where we could put a freezer ....Too bad we did not hear about PMR sooner.


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## DaneMama (Jun 27, 2008)

boxermom said:


> You are amazing, you hit right on my next question. When she finally had a bowel movevement it was solid, small stool... more on the dark, and sticky side like you mentioned but I also noticed what seemed like blood residue. I imagine her intestines are in pretty sad shape so I would not be surprised if it is from her or could it be residues of the raw food ?


Thanks, just here to help :biggrin:

Solid stool is perfect at this point. The color doesn't surprise me considering her condition and the fact that she is just been switched to raw. It is probably just a combination of both her previous issues on the mend and the new food that she isn't used to yet. I wouldn't worry about it one bit at this point. Just keep feeding her bone in chicken for another week or two or three...just until you see regular solid bowel movements for a good whole week in a row. Then we will work on getting other meats into her diet. 



> She did get some chicken necks because some of the packages marked as chicken backs at Publix actually were necks. Mom called me to let me know about the mix up and I went ahead and had her feed necks since I did not want her skipping breakfast. I'm stocking up on chicken backs at another store where they have it on sale and their backs are skinless.


Is she chewing them up well? The only concern you have with chicken necks is that they are small and can be a choking hazard for some dogs. BUT if she does chew them up well before swallowing I wouldn't worry too much about it. Its the dogs that gulp their food without chewing at all who are really at risk. The choking hazard goes for any cut of meat that is about the size of something that your dog could swallow whole, so keep in mind things that are big enough that she has to chew up a bit to make it fit down her throat.



> My husband and I are amazed how quickly she is coming along. I actually called my friend and offered her my left over dog food and treats, we are both convinced this is the way to go and my husband is already trying to figure out where we could put a freezer ....Too bad we did not hear about PMR sooner.


It is amazing how fast such sick dogs can turn around with something so simple like a 180 degree change in just their diet. Don't feel bad about not doing it sooner, just keep in mind that you *did* make the change that will add so much more enjoyment to her life. She will thank you with all the added spunk and happiness that you haven't seen because she has been so sick. 

We have 3 full size dedicated freezers....we have to because we have 4 big dogs and 2 cats that all eat a raw diet. I always recommend getting at least one full size dedicated freezer just so you can take advantage of seasonal items or get 12 whole pork shoulder roasts when they go on sale at the store, but still have room for all the other kinds of meat. Raw feeding isn't just good to the dog, but fun for the owner...it wont be long before you are just as knowledgeable and seasoned as me, and just wait you'll be the one helping the next person posting up with a sick dog looking for advice :wink:


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## boxermom (May 15, 2010)

We did pretty good on raw for about 4-5 days and then my daughter left cooked / seasoned chicken wings at her reach and that got another flareup going. All she had was two wings before I got to her but it seems that the damage has been done.

She started back with the runny diarrhea and the worst part is that she is turning her nose up at the chicken backs now. We got her to eat chicken necks but seems like the local markets have been out of those for the last couple of days, I resorted to chicken wings but no signs of a turn around and her appetite / energy is very low. I was considering buying chicken quarters and cleaning up most of the meat to see if she would go for the bone ... Any suggestions to get her to eat those darn chicken backs ? She is so thin and sick I can't bear the tough love approach.


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## DaneMama (Jun 27, 2008)

I don't think the tough love approach would be a good idea for her. I need to know a bit more first.... 

How long ago did she get the cooked wings? 

And how long has she gone without any food? 

Are her stools still runny? 

Any vomiting?


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## boxermom (May 15, 2010)

Last Tues. 5/25 was the cooked wing incident and she had been doing fine up to then. Wed. 5/26 very runny poops which was expected and she also ran out of Metronadizole. I expected the chicken backs to kick in and firm things up so I did not worry about the Metro at the time. Thurs. 5/27 it was soft -pudding consistency and ate a little less backs. Fri 5/28 just as bad and turned her nose up at breakfast, did same Sat. 5/29 so I went in to refill the Metronadizole in case it might help her get back on track. Sat. night she may have eaten one back and Sun. 5/30 no luck with the backs. We had some frozen chicken necks and she ate 4 or 5 of those mid afternoon but no backs at night either. 

Mon. 5/31 we went to various supermarkets but no necks so I got her to eat one wing mid afternoon. The rest of the afternoon we had a cook out and I could tell she was hungry for the grilled steak - and she even tried to dig thru one of our garbage bags but I got to her on time. By 9pm I got her to eat another 3 chicken wings but mostly by coaxing and teasing her into eating them. 

Today she refused the wings as well. I left one in her plate which she ate after 30 mins and just added 2 more to see what happens but I don't think she will finish them.


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## boxermom (May 15, 2010)

danemama08 said:


> Any vomiting?


Forgot to add, no vomitting ....

and also on Mon. am I felt bad about giving her pills on an empty stomach so I gave her 6 oz can of dog food with her meds and she seemed hungry for that ...


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## DaneMama (Jun 27, 2008)

Is there any way that you could post up a picture or two so I can see her body condition? I think there might be a really good chance that your dog *can* handle the tough love approach, considering she just sounds picky to me at this point and not necessarily sickly. I would rather know for sure what her body condition is like before going any further in helping you so I don't recommend something that might actually cause some damage. Like I said I think its just her being picky, because the things you say are the classic signs of a picky eater. Interested in food, hungry but only for the things that *she* wants (ie steak and kibble). If she were really sick she wouldn't be feeling up to eating anything at all. So, if you give the tough love approach a chance and re-establish who is in charge in deciding what she eats you will be able to get her to eat chicken backs when you want her to.


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## boxermom (May 15, 2010)

Darn, camara is dead but here is a pic from 5/15 that I took to try and track her progress. It is hard to tell from the pictures and there are the additional days of bad appetite, I would say when she stands up you can see all ribs and outline of the individual vertebrae / spinal cord and even her shoulder blades seem to be gone and just skin and bones when she walks. Last vet visit she was down to 47 lbs from 56-58 she weighed when healthy and I think she is thinner now. Besides how bad she looks, today she just wants to lay and mope around no energy at all. She did great when we started raw and she did not think twice about chomping thru the chicken backs but now she seems to be more offended by it than not eating at all ....


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## DaneMama (Jun 27, 2008)

She is pretty darn thin. You don't have to feed her chicken backs, if she will eat the wings and necks just fine just stick with those for now. It sounds to me that its a combination of the two things of her not feeling well and being a bit picky about what she wants to eat. Feed her what she will eat and if she refuses to eat it just wait a few hours and offer it again. If she refuses to eat several meals in a row you will have to find something she will eat that will get her system back to normal (even if its inappropriate like homecooked with chicken and rice). But lets try getting her back to normal on raw and nothing but since that will ultimately be the best thing for her.


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

boxermom said:


> Forgot to add, no vomitting ....
> 
> and also on Mon. am I felt bad about giving her pills on an empty stomach so I gave her 6 oz can of dog food with her meds and she seemed hungry for that ...


the 'tell' on your dog is she has the same problem with raw that my older dog had...

suddenly, malia had to work for food.

previous to that, it was either kibble or cooked.

when she didn't attack the chicken back with the same enthusiasm as my pug did (who, by the way, would eat wood)....i was so disheartened....i was ready to feed her the boiled chicken/rice she had been on for a month as i got ready to go raw....i still had some left over....

in looking back....we sat in the kitchen as she mournfully looked at me and looked at this thing in her dish.....for almost an hour...

she's a smaller dog than yours, so she does get less...

but she had been fasted for twenty four hours...and as she licked it, walked away, came back, licked it, walked away....while bubba was salivating over her food....he'd already finished his...

she did eventually eat it. yes, i had to hold it for her. and i realised she had no clue what to do with raw food and suddenly, she was out of 'inhale' mode.

what tells me your dog is playing you is the fact that she perks up for cooked food and had no trouble scarfing down the wings....sniffing for the steak and, as you said, she ate the canned food you gave her because you didn't want to give her meds on an empty stomach...

may i ask why she is still on metro? is she on any other drugs?

do i have this right that IBD was not diagnosed, even with ultrasound?

it sounds to me as if feeding time is so stressful for you that it's now becoming stressful for her...i totally get that...

my suggestion would be to fast her for twenty four hours....get a good book, sit at the table and put her food down the next morning.....

i would give her longer than 15 minutes....but only because she has never had to work for food before....

once she eats it.....over time, i might lessen the amount of time i left the food down....but i think once she realises this is it, she will turn it around herself...

i know this must be very uncomfortable for you...it certainly would be for me...but we have to be smarter than the dog....and it really sounds as if she's played the pity card on you 

my dogs do it to me all the time...so you're a member of a large club....

and, if she doesn't have ibd or ibs or any of the other colon diseases or syndromes...it may well be time to talk about taking her off of all meds...maybe give her some digestive enzymes with her food and let nature take its course.

that's what we had to do with our dogs who had been on several rounds of antibiotics, which i think made their issues worse...


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## GoldenGirl (Mar 31, 2010)

CorgiPaws said:


> How did I miss this?
> 
> Well, without rambling on and on and on, I'll summarize in about 4 words: been there, done that.
> 
> ...


WOW - the best testimonial I've seen yet on feeding raw. 

So glad we decided to make the transition!

- Jean


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## boxermom (May 15, 2010)

magicre said:


> may i ask why she is still on metro? is she on any other drugs?
> 
> do i have this right that IBD was not diagnosed, even with ultrasound?


She is on Metro, Pred, and Imuran. When we started down this path the blood work came back normal and we did the ultrasound which showed thickening of the intestinal walls and lots of movement. No tumors, blockage or other concerns. At the time she was tender to palpation of her stomach area as well. The next step in diagnosis for sure would be biopsies which can't afford but only way to know if IBD or cancer. 

She is still on all meds because when we start to get 2-3 days of improvement and we wean her off the metro or the pred she flares up again. She went for raw and I saw the most improvement but now we are back at square one, she vomited at the vet's today. We are getting blood work again to check basic panel and the pancreas (Tli) to check for EPI. I can only be hopeful that it is EPI, we are running out of options with her. She is now 37 lbs from 58-60 lb when she was healthy and it is heart breaking.
Not sure how much longer she will hang in there with us.


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