# Mystery gut problem



## marie99 (Mar 22, 2011)

I have a male dog about 2 years old mixed Lab and Red Heeler who has a problem with very loose, foul smelling stools and horrible gas. We have a mix Beagle and Yorkie female one year old who eats out of the same dish who is in perfect health.

He's has 3 courses of anti biotics, probiotics, antifungal, and the vet was completely stumped. I found out people have luck with pumpkin and stated giving him 1/4 cup of pumpkin every day and that has taken care of him.

So the vet jumped on that and decided he must have IBS and should eat Hill's Science Diet for overweight dogs forever, because it has a lot of fiber and might stop him up. I have a real personal problem about Hill's because years ago, I let another vet talk me into feeding a healthy dog Hill's and it made her stink and she lost energy.

The dog has been fed from his birth, Chicken Soup puppy formula. Purina One puppy formula, Purina One Adult formula, and Chicken Soup for adults. I just gave him a bag of Nature's Recipe Grain-Free Chicken, Sweet Potato & Pumpkin Dry Dog Food and it made no difference. I did not want to feed him Purina, but we moved and could not find Chicken Soup for a While.

It occurs to me that while he was eating puppy food, he wasn't having any problems. He also ate puppy food longer than normal because the other dog is much younger than he is and I feed them both the same because they want to eat out of the same dish. When I switched them both to adult kibble is when the problem started.

Is there any reason not to feed a dog puppy formula all his life? Will it give him health problems? Make him fat? Anything at all? Anything?

I don't want to cook for these dogs because I am going to have surgery this summer so their care needs to be extremely simple because I won't be the one doing it for about 3 months. 

Thank you for your help.
Marie


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## AmeliaPond (Mar 25, 2011)

These are probably dumb questions....

But are you transitioning between food slowly?
How long was he on each type of food?
How long has he been on his current food?


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## CorgiPaws (Mar 31, 2009)

marie99 said:


> He's has 3 courses of anti biotics, probiotics, antifungal, and the vet was completely stumped. I found out people have luck with pumpkin and stated giving him 1/4 cup of pumpkin every day and that has taken care of him.


 I'm glad you found relief for the time being, but pumpkin only masks the problem, rather than solve it... so you'll want to seek an actual solution. 




marie99 said:


> So the vet jumped on that and decided he must have IBS and should eat Hill's Science Diet for overweight dogs forever, because it has a lot of fiber and might stop him up.


Is the dog in fact overweight? Or is this formula simply the highest in fiber?



marie99 said:


> Is there any reason not to feed a dog puppy formula all his life? Will it give him health problems? Make him fat? Anything at all? Anything?


Most of the time, different formulas are not different enough from the original that they are simply a gimmick. With these brands, it's definately gimmick. You can feed a puppy food if you'd like. They are generally higher in calories, but that's OK. It won't give health problems. 
Food does not make dogs fat. Owners make dogs fat. Feed whatever you'd like, and measure daily portions, adjusting based on body condition and it won't make any difference as far as weight is concerned what is in the food bowl.


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## 1605 (May 27, 2009)

AmeliaPond said:


> These are probably dumb questions....
> 
> But are you transitioning between food slowly?
> How long was he on each type of food?
> How long has he been on his current food?


I'd also like to add "what type of protein are these foods"? Our dog was having problems similar to yours but it was due to the fact that he couldn't tolerate beef in any form. So once we cut that protein source out of his diet, his system went back to normal. But for over a month it was lots vet visits, pills, etc., etc.


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## marie99 (Mar 22, 2011)

I am transitioning between food over 10 days. He was on Chicken Soup puppy food for 8 months and then we moved and I gave him Purina One puppy food for another 14 months because we got another puppy and she would not stay out of his food. Then I put them both on adult Purina One this past Nov and the problem started. I found Chicken Soup(which was what I fed my last dog) in Jan and gave him that. I started them both on Nature's Recipe March 21.

I am going to check what ingredients are in these foods. That is a very good idea. Maybe there is something in common between the 3 foods that will be obvious to me.


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## marie99 (Mar 22, 2011)

He's not overweight. He's actually very thin because of the health problem. Its because the vet thinks he needs a high fiber food. Since pumpkin is high in fiber, that's what he's basing it on.

Why am I taking him to a vet that doesn't know anything about diet? Why do I disagree with what he told me to do this week? Those are very good questions and I don't know how to find a vet that knows anything about diet. They all say Hill's. They used to all say Purina.


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## DaneMama (Jun 27, 2008)

I would suggest you just ditch the whole processed kibble diets. They are less than ideal and dogs that have constant digestive upset and issues are all traced back to these foods packed full of inadequate and inappropriate ingredients. 

There are many people who have had similar issues to your dogs' issues, that have switched their dogs to a raw diet. Just a few days on a raw diet the issues are gone, and don't return. Here's a list of success stories from people on this forum:

Successes | Prey Model Raw

Good luck and I hope you find this helpful!


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## AmeliaPond (Mar 25, 2011)

It seems strange to me that your vet would want to put a very thin dog on a food that's for overweight dogs.

Have you tried a different vet to see what they say?


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## marie99 (Mar 22, 2011)

I don't want to pick a vet out of the phone book. How do I find one that actually knows about diet? They get like one class in nutrition and its apparently paid for by Hills these days. This one is a great surgeon, but he doesn't know anything about diet.


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## luvMyBRT (Mar 8, 2010)

Are there any holistic vets where you are? That's were I would start if you have any/some.....


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## marie99 (Mar 22, 2011)

As far as raw diets go, I don't want you to think I don't love my dogs, but they eat 6 cups of kibble a day together and 6 cups of raw meat would cost more than I spend to feed myself. I don't know any thing about the raw thing, I'm sure you don't just toss your dog a pack of burger every day, and I just bought a $44 25 lb. bag of kibble, but isn't it expensive and complicated? Also, I'm going to have surgery soon and somebody else is going to have to take care of them for a long time so it will have to be really idiot proof for a couple months.


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## jdatwood (Apr 13, 2009)

It's not as convenient as feeding kibble. That's true

It CAN be MUCH cheaper than feeding "quality" kibble though. We feed 6 large-giant breed dogs and it probably costs us about $10-12/day. We buy our meats for $0.65/lb on average.

A dog eats roughly 2% of their ideal weight so a 50lb dog would eat 1lb of meat a day.

When we have someone caring for our dogs we simply put 1 days worth of food into a ziploc and instruct them to just open the bag and dump the meal out for each dog outside. It doesn't get much easier than that.

It's not as complicated as people would lead you to believe, especially with all of the raw feeding knowledge here on DFC as well as on our website Dedicated to proper carnivore nutrition - Prey Model Raw Feeding for Dogs & Cats :wink:

We feed a variety of meat, bones, and organs from as many different animals as we can. In a week we'll typically feed chicken quarters, turkey necks, beef heart, pork ribs, some kind of fish. When we get our hands on it we feed any kind of game meat. Every week or two we do a full meal of liver & kidney.

We'd love to help you go the PMR route if it's something you're interested in :biggrin:


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## marie99 (Mar 22, 2011)

I tried to reply and nothing showed up. I don't want you to think I don't love my dogs, but they eat 6 cups of kibble a day together and the price of 6 cups of meat is more than I spend to feed myself. I just spent about $44 on a 25 bag of kibble and didn't mind, but meat is expensive. I know nothing about feeding raw, but I'm sure its complicated. I'm going to have surgery this summer so somebody else is going to have to help me take care of the dogs for 2-3 months so it has to be really easy and, um, inoffensive. Right now, I'd kill Bambi with my bare hands to fix Meatball but I don't expect other people to feel like that. I know that must sound like the usual excuses. How bad it it really and how do i find out about it?


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## 3Musketeers (Nov 4, 2010)

If you're uncomfortable with the idea of raw, then you could try perhaps switching over to a higher grade grain-free kibble, or something like the 96% Canned Merrick. None of the foods that you have fed the dog (with the exception of Chicken Soup) have been any good at all. How did he do on Chicken Soup? 
Also, for being grain free, Nature's Recipe is also VERY carby, uses pea protein, low in meat content.
I agree with Submariner, what protein source were you feeding? I noticed that the nature's Recipe is chicken, so maybe there is a chance he cannot tolerate cooked chicken?

Puppy formulas are generally higher in fat and protein than the adult formulas, beats me why they usually lower it for the adult formulas.

Another thing is you cold try some pre-made raw, preferably the simple carb-free ones (although it is expensive), with the hopes that one day you'll be comfortable with raw :biggrin:. On the upside it comes pre-packaged and you just slice off medallions and feed. It may not have all the benefits of PMR but it is a step-up.

One step at a time folks ;P


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## marie99 (Mar 22, 2011)

All of the food he has eaten were fish or chicken including the Purina One puppy kibbles he did well on when I couldn't find Chicken Soup after I moved. I can't get a freezer right now and if I knew where to get cheap meat, I'd be eating it myself. I'm sure nobody enjoys the cost of groceries. You have to consider the cost of a freezer and a couple lbs. of meat a day also. He ought to weigh 75 lbs. and the other dog weighs about 20. He did OK on the Chicken Soup Puppy kibbles but not the adult food. But when he's been extremely sick, I've given him rice with just enough chicken to make him eat it and he seemed ok with it, but he can't live on 95% white rice forever. He could have a problem with preservative level or some weird thing like that because adding fat as the only difference between adult and puppy formula doesn't make sense in this context. Extra fat ought to give him the runs. Is it gentler? Blander? Of course he could have develpoed an allergy when he got older.


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## AmeliaPond (Mar 25, 2011)

It may be worth a shot to find a higher quality kibble that contains red meat, perhaps. I'm not sure which brands have that though.

Maybe check Taste of the Wild or Innova. Those two seem to be recommended here a lot.

And don't feel bad about not wanting to go raw or whatever. I love my dog but have no desire to do it at all.


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

is it possible his rate of transition is slower than the other dogs....whenever i switched it would take one of my dogs up to two months.


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## 3Musketeers (Nov 4, 2010)

marie99 said:


> All of the food he has eaten were fish or chicken including the Purina One puppy kibbles he did well on when I couldn't find Chicken Soup after I moved. I can't get a freezer right now and if I knew where to get cheap meat, I'd be eating it myself. I'm sure nobody enjoys the cost of groceries. You have to consider the cost of a freezer and a couple lbs. of meat a day also. He ought to weigh 75 lbs. and the other dog weighs about 20. He did OK on the Chicken Soup Puppy kibbles but not the adult food. But when he's been extremely sick, I've given him rice with just enough chicken to make him eat it and he seemed ok with it, but he can't live on 95% white rice forever. He could have a problem with preservative level or some weird thing like that because adding fat as the only difference between adult and puppy formula doesn't make sense in this context. Extra fat ought to give him the runs. Is it gentler? Blander? Of course he could have develpoed an allergy when he got older.


The preservatives that a certain brand uses are generally the same for every food they make, puppy or adult, the only noticable difference I can see is fat/protein, it very well could be something else as more fat *should* give him the runs, but this is what goes on these foods:

Chicken Soup is preserved with Vit. E, which should not irritate the dog's digestive system.

Chicken Soup for the Pet Lover's Soul
PUPPY FORMULA:

Protein: 28% Fat: 17%

Ingredients: (only first few to save space)

Chicken, turkey, chicken meal, turkey meal, cracked pearled barley, whole grain brown rice, chicken fat (preserved with mixed tocopherols)

-----------------------------------
Chicken Soup for the Pet Lover's Soul
ADULT DOG FORMULA

Protein: 24% Fat: 14%
Calories: 3,593 kcal/kg (336 kcal/cup) Calculated ME
Available in 6 lb, 18 lb and 35 lb bags.

Ingredients: (only first few to save space)

Chicken, turkey, chicken meal, turkey meal, cracked pearled barley, whole grain brown rice, oatmeal, millet, white rice, chicken fat (preserved with mixed tocopherols)

The difference here is that it has more grains/carbs and less meat, it adds oatmeal, millet and white rice. Mayybe ( I can't tell you for sure) it's one of these presenting a problem.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Purine ONE on the other hand is a terrible food, full of fillers, corn protein (gluten meal, same thing different name)

Purina ONE® Healthy Puppy Formula

Crude Protein (MIN) 28.0%
Crude Fat (MIN) 16.0%


Lamb,* brewers rice*, *corn gluten meal*, oat meal, fish meal (source of DHA), whole grain corn, animal fat preserved with mixed-tocopherols (form of Vitamin E)
---------------------------------------------------------

Purina ONE® SmartBlend™ Chicken & Rice Formula

Crude Protein (MIN) 26.0%
Crude Fat (MIN) 16.0%

Chicken (natural source of glucosamine), *brewers rice*, *corn gluten meal*, whole grain corn,* poultry by-product meal (natural source of glucosamine)*, whole grain wheat, animal fat preserved with mixed-tocopherols (form of Vitamin E)

Items in *bold red* are things you *never* want to see in *ANY* food. However it is also preserved with Vit E. which shouldn't present a problem.

Both of these are lacking in ANY decent amount of meat/animal proteins, however the adult formula has EVEN less, and on top of that they add in wheat, whereas the puppy formula mainly uses corn, brewers rice and oatmeal.

Now it could be one of those mystery ingredients way further down the list, but generally there is not enough of it to matter. I can't work miracles or fix your dog's problems, I am merely stating the patterns I have noticed on the different foods you have mentioned. 
Based on my findings I recommended trying something that could possibly improve your dog's condition based on your listed past experiences and the fact that a dog is a carnivore.


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## Khan (Jan 17, 2010)

I understand you being skeptical about raw in both the cost and convenience. I was in the same boat about 15 months ago. I am happy to report that not only is the cost lower than the high quality kibble I was feeding; but in about 2 hrs I have enough food prepackaged for all 3 of my dogs that lasts anywhere from 30 days for my big one to 60 days for the littlest one. That being said, until you are ready to make that switch here are some things to possibly look at. I am speaking from experience since I went through this prior to going raw.
First of all look at ALL the ingredients in both the food AND treats you are feeding. We went to the "most common" culprits at first. After 4 months of going to the vet, getting checked for parasites, which were negative, after listening to the vet tell me this 6mo old puppy may have colitis and needs to be placed on prescription food, after going from one high end kibble to another, to another, to another etc. Feeding massive amounts of food only to have it come out the other end, and seeing a very skinny puppy!
First we looked to see if all of the different foods we had tried had Sunflower Oil. Some did, some didn't. What we did however determine was that all of the foods/treats had some sort form of Flax in them. We found two foods that did not have flax in it. Canadae and Orijen. I tried the Canade first, we saw a little bit of a change; but not completely. We then tried Orjen with the results being again about the same. I have since found that Khan cannot handle Salmon/Salmon Oil.
Both of these items are in everything since they are suppose to be good for you!
Try looking at what was in the puppy food they were eating. What is in the new food that was NOT in that food?
My guess is that they are suffering as Khan was from malabsorbtion syndrome. One of the cures is being put on a raw diet.
For 15 months we have had normal poo, no gas, and a dog that is at an ideal weight.


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## marie99 (Mar 22, 2011)

I've got him some TOTW bison and venison, on the grounds that he's never had anything remotely like it. Even that has chicken meal. If he's actually alleric to chicken, finding a food with no chicken by product whatsoever will be tough.


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## Khan (Jan 17, 2010)

Be careful with that type of food. That is a much richer protein, so you my need to really cut back the amount you feed. Especially when your dealing with a system that is already a little "outta whack" Good luck! Let's hope this gives you some good results.


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