# Raw and Kibble ??



## kksher (Apr 19, 2012)

Hello! 

I am new to this community but I'm excited for all of your input! I am a nutritionist so I definitely know what "people" should be eating, (haha) but I admit I am pretty new to the dog world and honestly, I'd rather get my info from you dog-lovers than a vet or random website.

We have an adorable 7 month old Lab/min pitt mix named Willie. I have heard tons of reasons why raw food is definitely better for him,(and it made perfect sense) so we tried it out the last few weeks and he loved it. We used a brand called, Oma's pride! (long story but it was basically a gift to us from a friend.... I opened the door one morning to find a package of raw treats, and a ton of frozen raw food which lasted about a month or so. It was suggested that as a transition we give the kibble in the morning and the raw at night and it was perfectly fine.
Here is my question: 
From the financial standpoint, we cannot continue to give him raw food every single day, so is it ok to give him kibble sometimes (he does only grain-free natural, good quality stuff) and raw sometimes? so long as they're spaced apart??
Also, can you just go to the store and buy some raw ground meat? since it seems that's what the food is mostly made of? Just for emergencies? What is my best bet? Hope that question made sense
Thanks!


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## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

Welcome! I'm very glad you came here. you will get lots of good advice and hopefully can keep your dogs on raw without going bankrupt.

Prey model feeders here don't use premade raw - it's VERY expensive and i sure couldn't afford it. 

Not sure where the suggestions for doing half and half come from. There's no need for it. 

Why don't you try feeding PMR? Here are the instructions:
How to Get Started | Prey Model Raw

You get your meat whole and feed it whole - it's alot cheaper. I don't feed ground meat except under certain conditions and most people don't feed it at all (unless it's on sale and comes cheap!).

People get meat from all kinds of sources - even advertising on craigslist. You can get cheap chicken to start out at the grocery store but make sure it isn't enhanced with salt (has less than 100 mg of salt per 4 oz). There are lots of ways to save money and I won't go through the whole list but you get the idea. We are bargain shoppers here


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## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

And yes - people do successfully give half raw and half dry. If you do i would strongly suggest the raw part not be ground. your dog needs raw meaty bones for dental care.


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## BearMurphy (Feb 29, 2012)

depending on where you live you can feed human grade meat for less than grain free kibble. it will be even easier to do so if you can find a co-op or bulk resource near you, but for instance chicken quarters and pork shoulder can be commonly found on sale where I live at a meat market/grocery store for .99/lb.

i would review the guide posted above and review the sticky at the top of the raw forum where it lists supplier and groups by state to see if this is something that is feasible for you. some people like to hold onto the convenience of kibble but I could never feed it again seeing how well my dog is doing on full raw


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## dustinshaw98 (Feb 22, 2012)

kksher said:


> Hello!
> 
> I am new to this community but I'm excited for all of your input! I am a nutritionist so I definitely know what "people" should be eating, (haha) but I admit I am pretty new to the dog world and honestly, I'd rather get my info from you dog-lovers than a vet or random website.
> 
> ...



To save, I buy the slaughterhouse entrails (sometimes free from the local butcher), cheap fresh sardines, and meat that's about to expire. Ripe meat are a dog's delicious staple. You can also mix in some table scraps. They are much more healthier than the most expensive kibble.


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## Liz (Sep 27, 2010)

Honestly I could not feed raw if it was premade/pre packaged. I don't know what area you in but I rarely pay more than $1 per pound for anything. Chicken, turkey, duck necks, lamb lung and sardines are a staple here and only the sardines are over a dollar everything else is well under and the lamb lung is free! It is worth it to really check our vendors and processors and see what you can find. It can be a very inexpensive way to go.


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## kady05 (Jul 29, 2011)

I feed Wilson 50/50 raw & kibble (the other 2 eat 100% PMR). He does best on this, and it has caused no issues whatsoever. He gets his raw in the AM at around 7am (either a chicken quarter, turkey neck, or something boneless), and kibble in the PM at around 5:30-6.


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## Neeko (Aug 11, 2010)

My two each get 9 raw and 5 kibble/canned meals a week. I'm inching closer to full PMR, still on the hunt for a freezer. The way we are doing it now works well for us, as my dogs have already had a variety of proteins and organs, but I know that full raw will be even better!


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## kksher (Apr 19, 2012)

WOW GUYS! thanks so much for the suggestions. I just moved to South Boston, (from Los Angeles) quite the culture shock to say the least. so we're going to check out what's available here. I also like the idea of getting a freezer to put downstairs in case we see any specials. 

Will also look into PMR, and local butchers as well, and maybe just have some grain free kibble around for emergencies or when we travel somewhere.

btw, Kady05, my puppy looks almost identical to your dog (Wilson) i couldn't believe it! Can u guys see my profile picture? it doesn't come up for me for some reason but when i go to "my profile" it's there. not very technically savvy.;(


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## dustinshaw98 (Feb 22, 2012)

Hi. For those of you guys who have plans of switching your dogs to raw foods, here's a definitive guide. Making The Switch To A Raw Food Diet Easy for You and Your Dog


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## danecolor (Nov 22, 2010)

if you are interested in switching, i would just go with Natalie's getting started guide ( How to Get Started | Prey Model Raw ), which xellil posted previously.

you do not have to give anyone your email address to read it, and i would venture a guess that it is the method that has been used successfully to switch over most of the dogs on this forum.


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## Dude and Bucks Mamma (May 14, 2011)

Natalie's is the one I used to switch my boys. 

We also feed PMR here. Kibble is much more expensive. I feed 120 lbs of dog (between the both of them with one still growing) and I can't imagine how much it would cost to feed kibble. 

We never spend more than $1/lb on meat. I'm sure it is more expensive other places but it has proven to be very cheap for us.


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## kady05 (Jul 29, 2011)

kksher said:


> btw, Kady05, my puppy looks almost identical to your dog (Wilson) i couldn't believe it! Can u guys see my profile picture? it doesn't come up for me for some reason but when i go to "my profile" it's there. not very technically savvy.;(


Aw really? 

I just checked and I can see your picture in your profile, they do look similar from what I can see! How funny that his name is "Willie" too.


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## Liz (Sep 27, 2010)

I would definitely transition my dogs according to Natalie's site. It is long standing and proven I saw many issues with the other link that could cause intestinal issues with some dogs.


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## wolfsnaps88 (Jan 2, 2012)

I fully support what everyone else has said. The website they linked is well written with proven methods. So, read that. It will tell you how to get started. Premade raw is overpriced in my humble opinion. I just feed animal parts. 

Invest in a freezer. It will be very beneficial to be able to store meats that you find bargains on. Get a phone book and start calling local meat places. Butcher shops, slaughter houses and farms. In order to keep costs down, many of us feed less expensive meats like beef heart, chicken backs, lungs, trachea, tripe, and parts most people do not eat. 

There may be a co op you can join where people join up and purchase meats in bulk in order to save money. I have had no luck with this but many on this forum have, it just depends on where you live.

Don't feel overwhelmed. Most of us raw feeders end up loving the whole process (finding meat and feeding it). It becomes second nature and once you know how to do it, it is so easy, even I can do it. 

I used to feed raw part time. I know some people who do right now. It is a personal opinion, but knowing what I know about kibble and how much it costs for quality kibble, I decided to just do raw full time. Not to mention raw digests faster than kibble. Raw is meant to go through the digestive tract quickly. If it gets backed up because of the slower moving kibble, you can have problems. So if you feed both, you have to leave time inbetween. I know some people feed raw in the AM and kibble at night. I would alternate raw days when I did it. When they ate raw, they did not get kibble. I think it is harder on their digestive systems though, having to switch gears all the time. 

Welcome to the forum, I am glad you came. You will learn a lot here.


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## kksher (Apr 19, 2012)

kady05 said:


> Aw really?
> 
> I just checked and I can see your picture in your profile, they do look similar from what I can see! How funny that his name is "Willie" too.


I KNOW!! hahaha. too funny. i will post more pictures soon as i figure out how!


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## kksher (Apr 19, 2012)

Thanks for the warm welcome, everyone. Willie's only 8 months so I'm a bit of a nervous new mom. haha. I really do love the idea of going raw. My nutritionist instincts all say that it's really what they're meant to eat. We still have the natural kibble on hand and from what i gather, i just need to space it out more than .....say 6 hours? We do give him a treat or 2 during the day, but those are usually a rawhide bone, or sometimes some apple or sweet potato. As far as the mixing goes, is that ok?
Going to go on craig's list and look for a good freezer to start. and i love the idea of a co op! for us as well as the pup!


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## MollyWoppy (Mar 19, 2010)

I think you've been given some good advice here. My Mol was on raw/canned/kibble/dehydrated for quite a few months before I switched her over to PMR.
But, I did want to add that I want a friend like yours. To have such a big heart like that to give you a months worth of raw food and treats because they care so much about your pup? Tell you what, he/she is worth keeping around!


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## kksher (Apr 19, 2012)

i KNOW, right? He's a friend of my boyfriend's. we took him to dinner for his birthday and this was his 'thank you". We have some of it still saved in our freezer. His family owns the company so we will probably actually still buy some stuff from them, just to support a great thing!


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## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

I would ditch the rawhides. In addition to the danger of a blockage, many of them are processed with really bad chemicals. And lot of them are made in China.

And i love the photos!


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## wolfsnaps88 (Jan 2, 2012)

Even though I have given rawhides, I agree with xellil. Some companies use crap like formaldehyde to cure the hides. YUCK. And, they swell when they get wet so they can block the digestive organs. 

If you are looking for chews your puppy can eat inside, try bully sticks. They are digestible and a great chew.


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## Gally (Jan 28, 2012)

I second switching from rawhides to bullysticks. If your dog likes them you can buy them online in bulk for much cheaper than any pet store.


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## kksher (Apr 19, 2012)

oh, ok. We have some bullysticks too. So here will be an example, just so I'm clear: this morning he just had about 1 lb of his raw food, then I'm not going to feed him his kibble until tonight at around 6:30.(it's the grain-free Natural one I bought in bulk from Amazon) in between though he does snack. maybe a bullystick, or some frozen pumpkin, sweet potato, or apple. My boyfriend also bought this bone last night.. hahaha. don't know if you can tell from the picture but there's not much meat on it. Since some suggestions were to be sure he got that dental health in! and he LOVES to rub it with his teeth and try to pick it up to hide it outside. it's the cutest thing ever)


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## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

I am familiar with those bones. They are processed somehow and are very hard. It would be alot better if you could give him a raw bone with meat on it that's not a large weight-bearing bone that might crack his teeth. 

There was a recent thread around here somewhere about recreational bones. My dog get turkey necks, lambshead, hogshead, pork ribs, venison ribs. They eat the meat and the bone.

My smaller dog only has four teeth but she gets chicken necks and chicken heads. 

Before I started raw food, I bought soup bones at the grocery store and my dogs loved those. They are still heavy bones, but they are raw and not processed and have a little meat on them. I would give those before a processed bone.

you can give a bony meal like a chicken back or quarter for the raw meal, and that will also be a good dental cleaning.


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## doggiedad (Jan 23, 2011)

find a food/meat wholesaler.


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## Cardigan twins (Apr 22, 2012)

I live in Boston and buy raw meat from "pawfectly raw" Tracy Lacombe, she delivers to several areas in New England and her food is awesome... google it, she lives in RI.


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## wolfsnaps88 (Jan 2, 2012)

My dog broke a carnassal tooth trying to vigorously chew on a bone like that. Not only is it a weight bearing bone, it is very hard because it is sterilized. Even if your dog did not break a tooth on it, there is nothing of real nutritional or stimulating value here. Dogs LOVE bone marrow. The bone marrow in that is ruined from being sterilized. It may smell good but there isn't much good to it. For the money you spend on something like that bone, you could be getting some REAL meaty, fun to chew on bones.


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## kksher (Apr 19, 2012)

will do! and thanks for the info! checking it out right now!!


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## kksher (Apr 19, 2012)

Hi everyone!

Just got back from the Vet with Willie. He did great!! We've been feeding him raw in the morning and his natural kibble at the evening with a few treats in between. The vet said his belly, and ears were the healthiest she's seen and he had not one ounce of tartar on his teeth.

I have 2 questions:
1. The vet wasn't all that thrilled with the raw stuff (which i expected since being a nutritionist i deal with western doctors who are skeptical of lots of more natural things that work) What caught my attention though was her asking me if the pet food had an AAFCO label? I am using Pawfectly raw whom to my knowledge have a USDA label but wanted to get all of your opinion if that mattered or not.

My second question is heart worm preventative monthly meds...? maybe there is already a thread on this but was just wondering if they're necessary (I'm in Boston) and it there are any side effects you have witnessed. 

Thanks so much!!
Karen


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## wolfsnaps88 (Jan 2, 2012)

The aafco is a joke. They pass so many garbage foods that I have no faith in them. As a PMR raw feeder, I feed the same quality foods to my dogs that I eat myself, except my dogs eat the meats raw. Just today I made pork chops and since its just my husband and me, they are eating the pork chops (raw) that we couldn't eat (it was an 8 pack of chops and I only cooked 4). 

Does the AAFCO regulate raw meat? Nope. I think many pre made raw diets do not go through AAFCO and as such, have to put it somewhere on the label. If your vet's only concern is the AAFCO, that is very telling. 

The important thing with raw is to follow the 80/10/10 guideline to create a 'balance over time' which is muscle 80%/bone 10%/organ 10%


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## kksher (Apr 19, 2012)

Awwww, so AFFCO is sort of like the FDA?? haha. got it! that's what i figured. Will be sure to keep the 80-10-10 rule. right now he's got a pretty good combination beef/tripe/liver/kidney, duck and beef patties. he didn't like the whole fish and threw up later so I didn't give him anymore of that one.


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## nupe (Apr 26, 2011)

kksher said:


> Awwww, so AFFCO is sort of like the FDA?? haha. got it! that's what i figured. Will be sure to keep the 80-10-10 rule. right now he's got a pretty good combination beef/tripe/liver/kidney, duck and beef patties. he didn't like the whole fish and threw up later so I didn't give him anymore of that one.




bEEF pATTIES...YAH MAN...LOVE THEM!!


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## kksher (Apr 19, 2012)

gotcha! So then I guess I won't worry about the AAFCO thing. My vet seems to swear by it, along with this preventative heart worm medicine that Im a bit skeptical of. 
He weighs 48 lbs. he's 9 months. We've been doing about 1 lb of the raw food in the morning and then at night either more raw food or about 1.5 cups of kibble. some treats in between. The only reason we're still giving him kibble is that I'm afraid if we cut it out all together and then for whatever reason, (traveling, etc) we'd have to give it to him, his body will be somewhat used to it and he won't get sick. Does that sound logical or do you all suggest we try a different tactic?


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## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

Vets don't normally know much about nutrition, and they make money off the food they sell.

AAFCO sets a basic standard for nutritionally complete food. So most dog food bags will say "100% nutritionally complete" on it because they meet those standards.

But the FDA supposedly monitors the actual quality of the food. They really don't much, but they say they do.

As it turns out in the recent Diamond plant fiasco, it was STATES who tested and found the problems. not Diamond, not the FDA.

The cheapest, most vile dog food will meet AAFCO standards.


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## kksher (Apr 19, 2012)

Ok, that's what I figured when the vet suggested it. What a shame. I suppose I will stay on the raw food at Pawfectly raw! Willie loves it (all except the fish) but ooops I guess we were giving him a bit too much. (if you're saying he needs to have 2% of his body weight per day)? He is quite active, though I am almost certain I want to eliminate the kibble! this is scary but I'm willing to give it a shot. Especially since a lot of the food from this place is actually consumable for humans too. My only concern is if we are traveling or run into some type of emergency and run out and I have to give him kibble, will it make him sick? though i don't foresee that happening, i just like to be prepared.  signed, nervous mom


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## Liz (Sep 27, 2010)

I travel with my dogs all the time and actually it is much easier feeding raw. When camping we ran out of food and hit a grocery store, picked up a chicken and every body ate for a couple of days. I never worry about what to feed unless you are hiking in the woods you generally can reach a grocery store or mini mart - at a mini mart I could buy canned fish - sardines, mackarel or salmon. I feed 7 dogs raw from 11 months old to 13 years old. We have also weaned two litter directly from mom to raw. 3 of my youngsters have never eaten kibbles in their lives and are even insulted when offered milk bones or some such nonsense by others - they will take the treat, lay it on the floor and walk away in a huff. LOL


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## Dude and Bucks Mamma (May 14, 2011)

Oh my... I could NEVER afford to feed my guys premade! One is 61 lbs and the other is 62 lbs and growing! 

Most of us feed PMR (Prey Model Raw). We don't feed the premade mixes. In my freezer, right now, I have beef/elk scrap, tom turkey necks, chicken quarters, some whole chickens, calf legs, whole sardines, and some other stuff. 

Dude, my 8 year old smooth collie, eats 1.5 lbs per day. He eats mostly poultry (chicken, turkey, cornish game hens) with some pork and the occasional hunk of bone-in beef or elk. He has a sensitive stomach and the poultry is easier to handle and the beef comes with lots of bone to keep him from getting loose stool. 

Buck, my one year old bluetick coonhound, eats 2.5 lbs per day. He eats mostly red meats (beef heart, pork, beef/elk scrap) with poultry only when we have no red meat in the freezer or Dude's chicken in the fridge is starting to stink a bit and we want it gone faster. He has a crazy fast metabolism and the red meats help keep weight on him. 

As you can see, every dog is different but once you figure out exactly what kind of diet your dog does best on PMR is SO easy! It is also much cheaper than premade as dogs can eat freezerburnt meat (it tastes bad to us but is still perfectly good to eat) you forget about or your friends are going to throw out, meat that has been marked down at the grocery store, leftovers that farmers aren't going to use, scrap from processors, etc. Most of the work for raw goes into finding meat sources but, once you find them, you can find great deals on meat (all of our meat is bought for less than $1/lb) and sometimes even free meat (hunters/farmers/friends/etc). 

The couple of months right before hunting season all the way through the couple of months after hunting season are always great because:

-Before hunting season many hunters are trying to empty their freezers of any meat leftover from the animals they brought home the previous year and many would rather give it away then see it go to waste

-During hunting season because those who are coming back from their hunts nearly always have parts of the carcass that they won't use and, again, many would hate to see it go to waste

-After hunting season because they often don't have enough room for all of the meat and even though hunting season is over there are still hunters who might have some parts they are willing to give away

As you can see, there are many sources for feeding raw that can help you save money that you would otherwise be spending on expensive premades!


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## kksher (Apr 19, 2012)

This is actually getting exciting! thanks for all the info. I went to give Willie about .5 lb for his breakfast yesterday and the same for dinner and it looked like almost nothing. Is it okay to maybe throw in some steamed veggies with it to fill him up? We try to get him outside playing and running with us every day so I would say he's moderately active. (not to say he doesn't love his nap time)


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## Dude and Bucks Mamma (May 14, 2011)

Forgive me if this was asked already but how much does Willie weigh? And is he overweight/underweight? What breed is he? These things can help us help you a bit more with how much to feed


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## kksher (Apr 19, 2012)

Thanks! Willie is a 9 month old Lab/mini-pitt mix. He's 48lbs. I think his weight is perfect right now so I'd like to maintain. Here are some pix i took yesterday. He loves yoga! haha


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## Dude and Bucks Mamma (May 14, 2011)

He is awfully cute!

And my apologies. I must have confused this thread with another one. I just read the entire thing and am feeling pretty silly since I asked already answered questions!

I have a dog who eats to live and a dog who lives to eat. Buck, my bluetick coonhound, lives to eat. Look at my sig picture. That is him desperately trying to eat the cheese dust out of an empty cheese ball container...

I don't give him veggies to help fill him up.

Here's the thing: A feral dog would find a meal, gorge itself and then likely go a couple of days without eating until it found its next meal. Our dogs eat every day. I don't see any reason to "make them feel full". Buck lives for food but he doesn't get any more than his 2.5 lbs per day unless we are training and he gets some treats with it. I don't concern myself as to whether he "feels full" or not. He would eat until he barfed if I let him and a lot of dogs are like that. He isn't hungry. He has 2.5 lbs of meat in his belly. He used to sit at the kitchen and beg for more food but, since figuring out that that wasn't going to happen, once the food is gone and the kitchen is cleaned he forgets about begging for food.

If Willie still acts hungry you could wean him onto once a day so that he is getting one big meal per day. Mine do much better on once a day than they did on twice a day. Feeding once a day will also help you give better meals because you can give more complex meals and one big chunk. I don't know if you have switched fully to PMR but it really helps to feed once a day.


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## kksher (Apr 19, 2012)

ok, i will definitely consider that. I think it's the "Italian" in me that thinks everyone needs to feel full all the time. lol


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## Dude and Bucks Mamma (May 14, 2011)

I used to feel bad too. I had never had a dog who would, after eating a full meal, still act like he was starving to death. Now, because he doesn't expect it he doesn't even worry about it anymore


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## kksher (Apr 19, 2012)

haha, that's true  One thing i've been noticing is for the last week or 2 his poop has been pretty dark in color. No blood, just dark. Any thoughts?


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## kksher (Apr 19, 2012)

ok. yea it's ground beef, (course w bone in small pieces) He eats in in about 2 seconds. haha. LOVES IT. and we also have the course beef/liver/tripe/kidney mixture. Just got a chest freezer yesterday so we'll be able to get more raw food in bulk which is very exciting. He also has duck that he didn't try yet.


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## kksher (Apr 19, 2012)

Sure! they have them at the place we order from. Right now we have a 5 lb bag of duck necks thawing. Can't wait to see how he likes them. Does the same portion size apply? about 1 lb per day?


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## nupe (Apr 26, 2011)

nO need to wait FOR IT TO THAW...GIVE HIM THAT DUCK NECK FROZEN....will be a better WORK OUT FOR HIS JAW....Another advantage of feeding RAW!!


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

kksher said:


> Sure! they have them at the place we order from. Right now we have a 5 lb bag of duck necks thawing. Can't wait to see how he likes them. Does the same portion size apply? about 1 lb per day?


you're feeding a pound a day....and he's doing fine on a pound a day so far? good.

so yes. 

and you don't have to defrost. just serve.


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## kksher (Apr 19, 2012)

Hi everyone! So for the last few months we've been giving Willie raw food at our local pet store. I know it's pricey but its temporary since I think the last company we used to get our raw food went out of business. just came across a good sale on pork tails in the grocery store. They've been frozen and we just thawed them out in the fridge. Is that ok for him? We are so paranoid of him choking with that little bone in there and Willie eats so fast (almost doesnt even chew) so should i take out that center bone or chop it up somehow? I know that's supposed to be the best part for him, but it isn't big enough for him to just gnaw on, but not small enough for him to break apart but that happy medium that scares me. Thoughts?


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## Elisabeth (Jul 18, 2011)

kady05 said:


> I feed Wilson 50/50 raw & kibble (the other 2 eat 100% PMR). He does best on this, and it has caused no issues whatsoever. He gets his raw in the AM at around 7am (either a chicken quarter, turkey neck, or something boneless), and kibble in the PM at around 5:30-6.


this is what i do as well - raw in the morning and kibble in the late afternoon (soaked in lots of water). this gives plenty of time for the kibble to digest before feeding raw in the morning again.


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