# 9 weeks in. Rox still itchy , got scolded by vet, need ideas/sources for meat



## lemontwig (Aug 3, 2011)

Hi everyone.

I wrote about two months ago about our new dog Roxie. She's doing well with digesting her new diet (stable healthy poops) but continues to have a real itch problem.

Wherever she hasn't itched, she looks great. However, she has been increasingly biting her inner thighs and legs and scratching at her belly and chest, and is going bald again( inner thighs and lower legs). We know we still have fleas coming in, due to cats. Trying Temaril for the first time today. Which is what I went into the vet for. But I left with a whole lot more.

When we got on the topic of food, everything just went haywire. Long story short, she described the prey model as "completely inadequate" and began grilling me about where I got my information. Not open to a conversation, she then went into a sales pitch about Hill's science diet and recommended (forcefully) at least three months of their hypoallergenic line. By the end of the appointment, my husband purchased $200 of the food, believing it was our best option. I was so shook up, I had gone outside w/ Rox for fresh air. I returned the food today, and they were great about it. But man, it really felt awful getting grilled like that, and it was especially painful to be accused of mistreating her. Has anyone ever experienced that? It appeared that it really hit a nerve with the her. Her manner became condescending and imperious, with a touch of contempt...and we know her socially, so it was a real shock. Like I was telling her I fed my dog Schlitz beer and circus peanuts.

Moving on. 
I am struggling to find good meat sources beyond chicken. She has been on chicken and turkey necks this whole time, and I know its time to expand. I am having trouble finding appropriate/affordable food. I rarely find turkey, so go to a special store to buy Primal turkey necks. Any ideas? Is there a thread on where people order meat? 

Back to the itch. Its terrible to hear her biting at 3 am. I get up and wipe her down with diluted ACV and that seems to give her relief short term. Would welcome any ideas anyone can offer. I have read about other's experiences on this site. I know diet may not be the cure-all, and I continue to fight the fleas. (planning to build a cat enclosure soon to keep cats from roaming, which will help a lot). Everyone, including this vet agrees that Roxy is a shar-pei mix, based on her coat texture, and say they are notorious for sensitive skin. I still am concerned that it could be mites as well (her front legs and chest have small patches of fur missing), but did a second negative scrape yesterday. 

Sorry if this is a disorganized post. I have a lot to cram in and I am sleepy...those 3am dog baths are getting to me.


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## JayJayisme (Aug 2, 2009)

I don't have any suggestions about the itching issue other than making absolutely sure the chicken isn't enhanced, and trying something new, maybe pork or beef. Regardless, it sounds like ti's time for a new vet. I wouldn't put up with that kind of beratement for a minute.


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## maplewood (Apr 14, 2011)

If she has Flea Dermatitis (flea allergic reaction) which is what it sounds like. Nothing you do will help until you get rid of the fleas!! Yes dogs can lose patches of hair from fleas.

As far as the vet goes, sounds a little extreme however most vet's are against raw  I had asked a our vet about it years ago and his response was "If you don't want to feed kibble cook for your dogs because they get constipated form the bones and cooking kills e. coli ect ect"


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## NZ Raw (Sep 14, 2011)

You need a new vet. Sorry I was not here a month ago so don't know the whole story was she allergy tested?


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## chowder (Sep 7, 2008)

lemontwig said:


> so it was a real shock. Like I was telling her I fed my dog Schlitz beer and circus peanuts.
> 
> .


LOL!! Sorry for all the problems you are having but that just made me actually laugh out loud!! You must be from upstate New York or Pennsylvania. 

The areas you are describing (inner legs, thighs, chest) sound like it is a type of contact allergy. There is a diagram of a dog that highlights all these area's as contact allergy spots and for the life of me I can't find it now or I'd link it for you. But they are a typical spot for contact allergies because they have little hair and are in areas on the dog that come into contact with a variety of things. Since you have a breed that is so well known for having skin problems, it could be so many things that he is coming in contact with that is causing the problem. 

My dog Shade has a problem with it at certain times of the year and chews the insides of his hind legs and tummy. His is from something outside and right now we are in a high allergy time of year. Everyone I know here is sneezing and has a runny nose so it's no wonder the dogs are itching, too. I sometimes use chlorehexadine scrub on the spots inside his legs that he has chewed but mostly I just try to keep him inside (which is what he prefers anyway). 

Good luck with your baby and I hope you find what the allergen is that is causing the problem. 

Yes, you have a breed that is notorious for skin problems.


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## Imgliniel (Sep 1, 2011)

Ok so I had to go looking, I am now slightly sick. I am not sure if it was the d/d skin support or z/d Allergen free your vet sold you, so I will include both.

Prescription Diet®
d/d® Canine Skin Support Potato & Salmon Formula

Potato, Potato Starch, Salmon, Potato Protein, Pork Fat (preserved with Mixed Tocopherols and Citric Acid), Soybean Oil, Natural Flavor, Dicalcium Phosphate, Lactic Acid, Fish Oil, Fish Meal, Potassium Chloride, Powdered Cellulose, Iodized Salt, Calcium Carbonate, Choline Chloride, vitamins (L-Ascorbyl-2-Polyphosphate (source of vitamin C), Vitamin E Supplement, Niacin, Thiamine Mononitrate, Vitamin A Supplement, Calcium Pantothenate, Biotin, Vitamin B12 Supplement, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride, Riboflavin, Folic Acid, Vitamin D3 Supplement), Vitamin E Supplement, DL-Methionine, Taurine, minerals (Ferrous Sulfate, Zinc Oxide, Copper Sulfate, Manganous Oxide, Calcium Iodate, Sodium Selenite), L-Tryptophan, preserved with Mixed Tocopherols and Citric Acid, Phosphoric Acid, Beta-Carotene, Rosemary Extract.

I am fairly sure there is more potatoe in this then anything else. So Potatoes are apperently fabulous for dogs skin :shocked: :twitch:


Prescription Diet®
z/d® Canine ULTRA Allergen-Free (this is the one I am thinking you bought)

Starch, Hydrolyzed Chicken Liver, Soybean Oil (preserved with BHA, propyl gallate and citric acid), Hydrolyzed Chicken, Powdered Cellulose, Dicalcium Phosphate, Calcium Carbonate, Glyceryl Monostearate, Potassium Chloride, Iodized Salt, Choline Chloride, vitamins (Vitamin E Supplement, L-Ascorbyl-2-Polyphosphate (source of vitamin C), Niacin, Thiamine Mononitrate, Vitamin A Supplement, Calcium Pantothenate, Biotin, Vitamin B12 Supplement, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride, Riboflavin, Vitamin D3 Supplement, Folic Acid), DL-Methionine, minerals (Ferrous Sulfate, Zinc Oxide, Copper sulfate, Manganous Oxide, Calcium Iodate, Sodium Selenite), preserved with Mixed Tocopherols & Citric Acid, Taurine, Beta-Carotene, Rosemary Extract

This is also on that page under key benefits

Formulated with Hill's Hydrolyzed Protein System, highly digestible proteins that minimize the chances of allergic reactions to food (my 2 cents, searching for what exactly hydrolized protien is the best I can find is that is means broken down into individual amino acids and there are several ways to do this. Most of google page one turned up alarming amounts of links on it's similarities to MSG and one FDA recall for human products containing hydrolzed protiens)No intact animal protein (me again apperently animal protein for a canivore is bad, I knever would have known! thanks for that gem of wisdom hills!) to help avoid common food allergens
Highly digestible carbohydrates and fats to help reduce gastrointestinal workload (again, from waht?!?! I basically see "starch" the hydrolyzed frankenchicken, and soybean oil, oh and sawdust, lets not forget the sawdust, yummy).Increased in omega 3 and 6 Fatty Acids to help nourish the skin (from what?!?! the soybean oil?!?!)Added antioxidants to control cell oxidation and promote a healthy immune system and skin barrier function (the only recognizable antioxidants I see are rosemary and beta carotene, give the dog a carrot if you really want to give them extra beta carotene, or beter yet how about pre formed vit a from Liver!)

Alright, I think you get the picture. I agree you need a new vet.


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## lemontwig (Aug 3, 2011)

hey chowder, you win a prize! I am originally from upstate NY. Binghamton/Syracuse. 

Yes, she is not the best vet for us...and Im getting really nervous about having a good vet. This is strike 2 in two months. My raw food acquaintance says she can't recommend anyone in the area. But she took one dog a couple hrs away once for derm issues, and I will follow that up. 

NZ raw, she has not been tested. 

As far as contact derm...that was my first thought, when this started a couple months ago, however, it also became obvious that it was flea allergy. I suppose it could be both. She was doing great for a while, and then it started up again about two weeks ago. And I know she reacts to the outdoors with runny eyes and face rubbing as well some days. About an hour ago she ripped out a chunk of hair near her tail and its a bit bloody. I feel awful. This was 3 hours after I gave her the temaril. Seems better now, ut Im keeping her close to me.

Yes, the doc, she splained all about the highly digestible unrecognizable protein. In her words, "the proteins are so tiny they are unrecognizable". If I thought it would help, I would try it. But she has come so far and looks so much better than she did when she was on kibble...but just don'
t look at her hiney.


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## Imgliniel (Sep 1, 2011)

As for sources I have a good in with local store butcher, but that has taken some time to develop. Are you still in upstate new York? Are you having trouble finding anything beside chicken at all as in the stores don't carry it ? Or anything besides chicken that is affordable for you because what they carry is really expensive? Clarify for me lol. I think most average grocery stores carry some beef and pork, but alot of it is seasoned, etc etc.


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## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

I'm so glad you took the food back. How they sell that stuff with a straight face, I'll never know.

Good luck. I know allergies are so hard to deal with. We have a dog with runny eyes (which is really minor compared to what you are going through) and NOTHING seems to help.


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## cprcheetah (Jul 14, 2010)

It took Zoey about 2-3 months into raw to really notice a good difference in her itching/chewing on her, she's been on it for 14 months now and is doing absolutely AMAZING! If you have fleas that may be causing the itching as well. So I think that once you get the fleas taken care of she might stop the itch. Has the vet done a skin scraping for Sarcoptes? It is RARE to find the mites on a scraping but Ziva my min pin was recently diagnosed with it and has had her 3 injections and is doing much much better, no more chewies, no more bald spots. That may be another option to discuss with either current vet or a different one if you can find one. I don't feel that it's the Vet's business whether or not they agree with what I feed, I know my dad (who has been a Vet for 40+ years) was hesitant when I told him what I was feeding my dogs, but now that he's seen what it's done for them he actually recommends it to people. The vet I work for now (my dad semi-retired) promotes Royal Canin/Purina Vet Diets but doesn't really have a problem with people feeding raw as long as it's balanced. 

Personally the vet social acquaintance or not has NO RIGHT to treat you like that. I would find a different vet. I work as a Receptionist now at the vet and OMG I cringe everytime we send out a bag of food....but have to do what I have to do for the job. Although have started educating them a little on proper nutrition.


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## SerenityFL (Sep 28, 2010)

I would agree with everyone else here, you need to find a new vet. I don't need a berating lecture, I need to find the cure for the problem. She's so wrapped up in telling you how wrong you are and not helping. Time to whip out the phone book and call every vet within your driving distance and ask them, upfront, what they think of raw feeding. Seriously. I did that when I moved here, (well, I drove to those places and asked but that was my first question).

Also, if it's a problem with fleas, (I swear I am not a sales rep for this company, I just stand behind their product because it actually works), try FleaBusters. I swear. Even if you have cats that roam, there will NOT be any fleas in your house and if any DO get on your dog from outside, they. will. die. You can be flea free for guaranteed a year but it typically lasts much longer than that. Plus, it's all natural, (nematodes).

Or try food grade DE.


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## lemontwig (Aug 3, 2011)

Imgliniel , we have a local butcher, but they and the shops don't seem to carry turkey...and I was trying to follow the chicken to turkey to pork/fish/beef schedule. Also, Im interested in ordering because although we can get chicken at about $1 a lb, everything else is triple or more. Maybe I'm in fantasy land, but I thought i read that some folks were getting all sorts of meat for around the same price I pay for chicken. I guess I will ask at our local butcher (carnicería) for guajolote in case he can get it. We live on the central coast of CA btw. Monterey.


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## lemontwig (Aug 3, 2011)

serenityfl, I have nematodes ready in my fridge to spread tomorrow night. And I did Diatomaceous in the house. I will look into fleabusters service if my diy version fails.


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## Scarlett_O' (May 19, 2011)

lemontwig said:


> serenityfl, I have nematodes ready in my fridge to spread tomorrow night. And I did Diatomaceous in the house. I will look into fleabusters service if my diy version fails.


You can also put DE on the dogs/cats!:smile:

I put it on all of our guys....havent seen a flea!:thumb:


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## lemontwig (Aug 3, 2011)

That's a great idea. to actually call ahead and not have a big conflict once Im there. thanks!


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## SerenityFL (Sep 28, 2010)

lemontwig said:


> Imgliniel , we have a local butcher, but they and the shops don't seem to carry turkey...and I was trying to follow the chicken to turkey to pork/fish/beef schedule. Also, Im interested in ordering because although we can get chicken at about $1 a lb, everything else is triple or more. Maybe I'm in fantasy land, but I thought i read that some folks were getting all sorts of meat for around the same price I pay for chicken. I guess I will ask at our local butcher (carnicería) for guajolote in case he can get it. We live on the central coast of CA btw. Monterey.


It really depends on where you live. I lived in Miami and am now in Maine and I am NOT finding the prices that others are getting. I would love nothing more than less than a dollar a pound for meat...sheesh, how much money I could have saved!

What I have to do now, well, some times you have to bend some rules and hope others will shop for you where you aren't allowed to shop...just sayin' and other times, you have to feed a LOT of chicken and toss in a few scraps of something else that you can find even though it's not the best price.

But still...your stores don't carry turkey on a regular basis? Not even ground? Maybe as Thanksgiving approaches, you should nab up a whole bunch to freeze to last a few months after the holidays. 

Maybe...ok, I would like to preface this: I'm not saying you haven't scoured the entire store or even asked...just in case, is all I'm saying: Most of the time when I find the turkeys, they are not in the meat aisle. They are in the frozen food section. If you haven't looked there, try that. If you have...well, that just sucks that they don't carry it year round.


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## lemontwig (Aug 3, 2011)

Actually, thanks for that, I have only been looking in the fresh meat area. I did see some frozen ones by accident once, but they had added salt. I'll get back out there and look this weekend. There is ground turkey and I have used that in her kong, but I didn't think that was ideal.


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## SerenityFL (Sep 28, 2010)

Ok...basing on your location, I plugged in a zip code that may or may not be near you...93133, Salinas.

The Wal Mart Super Center does sell some turkeys. 

Walmart.com: Grocery: Meat, Seafood & Poultry: Poultry

Here's a list of meat markets in your area:

Meat Sales - Monterey, CA - Monterey Herald Business Listings

And another:

Monterey Meat Co - Monterey Park, CA

For grass fed beef...may be pricier, may not be...don't know:

California Farms & Ranches Listed on Eatwild.com - Google Maps

Asian markets to find organs and duck or other weird meats:

Asian Market - Marina, CA

Asian Pacific Market in Marina (Monterey Bay area) - California - Chowhound (read the first blog post, at the end it gives you the address)

99 Ranch Market - Monterey Park, CA

Hopefully some of these are close enough to you and you can find some good deals and some good stuff.


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## Imgliniel (Sep 1, 2011)

ok, I see. As far as price goes I am not much help because I buy organic lol. But I guess the biggest prolem ATM is the lack of availability of turkey. I know if you ask some butchers they can order for you. Mine orders me 10 lb packs of turkey necks from his supplier. They are 1.59 per pound but remember we are talking pasture raised organic birds.


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## lemontwig (Aug 3, 2011)

Amazing. Thanks for the list. I live up the road from the asian market, but didn't even see any meat. I must have noodle goggles on or something.


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## sozzle (May 18, 2011)

lemontwig I am sorry that you are having that problem with your vet being so anti raw and I hope that you can find a new one, but what really jumped out at me reading your post is that "so what how you feed your dog" it's none of their sodding business at the end of the day, don't we live in a democracy? for instance my doctor is a Christian and believes in vaccinations and I'm not a Christian or have ever vaccinated my kids, but he has never preached either to me (even though kids rarely go to doc) and I also choose to have alternatives to mammograms now I am 45 and he knows that and doesn't preach to me, because it is an informed choice of mine and I have done research and have done what I think is best for me and my kids and likewise for the dog. You are after all paying them for their services (even if the insults are humiliating), so maybe she needs to loosen up and you might have more success with a more open minded vet.
My vet hasn't actually ever asked me what or how I feed my dog which I have been doing since April but I am not ashamed but will be interested to see what they say and I am NOT backing down and will be prepared with guns blazing!!
Good luck with skin problems.


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## Liz (Sep 27, 2010)

*Itchy*

Flea stuff is hard. You really need to get rid of the fleas before determining if there is a food issue going on. Like others said DE, Flea Busters, etc shoudl really help eradicate them. 

As for the meat you might want to contact Creston Valley Meats. He is a butcher in your area who makes deliveries up and down the I5 corridor. He has good variety and some nice prices. I order some of his stuff for my mom's sheltie.


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## chowder (Sep 7, 2008)

lemontwig said:


> hey chowder, you win a prize! I am originally from upstate NY. Binghamton/Syracuse.
> 
> .


I knew it!! I'm originally from a small town south of Buffalo. The only area in the world where Schlitz Beer and Circus Peanuts are a food source! I actually had to explain to my husband what Circus Peanuts were.


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## tem_sat (Jun 20, 2010)

xellil said:


> I'm so glad you took the food back. How they sell that stuff with a straight face, I'll never know.


Exactly...it's like feeding your dog a chicken liver bullion cube.

No way, no how on hydrolyzed protein.

Oh, and Imgliniel's "frankenchicken" was a perfect description!


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## Dude and Bucks Mamma (May 14, 2011)

lemontwig said:


> Imgliniel , we have a local butcher, but they and the shops don't seem to carry turkey...and I was trying to follow the chicken to turkey to pork/fish/beef schedule. Also, Im interested in ordering because although we can get chicken at about $1 a lb, everything else is triple or more. Maybe I'm in fantasy land, but I thought i read that some folks were getting all sorts of meat for around the same price I pay for chicken. I guess I will ask at our local butcher (carnicería) for guajolote in case he can get it. We live on the central coast of CA btw. Monterey.


I went to school in Monterey for a year  Cal State Monterey Bay. Anyhow, we used to be able to get fresh fish for REALLY cheap there because of all the fishing. That will be a GREAT source of protein once you add that in. Don't worry about following the meat order. It's recommended but my boys got beef as a second meat because it's just what we had access to. As long as you go a bit more slowly when adding it in they will be fine. I would have followed the meat order but I just can't get turkey around here consistently enough. Or pork. Beef and chicken are our staples. 

Also, somebody feeds their lab (i think) blueberries for allergies. I can't remember what kind (seasonal or food related). You can find out in the raw picture thread. They have to be wild blueberries and she would blend them up with enough water to make a thick liquid then froze them into ice cubes. It would be worth asking about. Maybe it will help. She isn't a BARF feeder, but she has been doing that since her kibble days and even though raw put a huge stop to a lot of the itching, at the peak of allergy season her dog still itches a bit and the blueberry ice cubes seem to help.


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## doggiedad (Jan 23, 2011)

my dog is allergic to turkey.


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## Chocx2 (Nov 16, 2009)

Wow sounds like you handled that like a pro, I mean the vet. I have stayed with my vet, even though she originally was like that. But she is my best friend, lol. But its been three years now since I save my itching, hairless dog from kibble. Now my friend says that some diets are better suited for some dogs????? Changing her mind now, don't know, but she is certainly softening. I explained to here my passion for saving my baby from her hair loss and itching. She still believes that if your going to feed real food, "not kibble" that it needs to be cooked. I'll keep working on her though.

Once you get rid of the flees your dog should come around, took mine 6 months. Here allergy was to mites..dust, grain, mange, there is like six different kinds. Now she has like a mink coat on, thick, shinny, white teeth, and looking good. Everyone here supported my efforts, stick with it.:third:


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## nupe (Apr 26, 2011)

Besides your vet selling out to the Hill company...how is she as a vet??..just curious?? I dont even get upset when I hear these stories of vets and them pushing science diet or whatever anymore.....I just wouldnt have a convo about feeding with her anymore and if she starts to talk that BS..just let her talk and let it go in one ear and right out the other. thats why I asked how She is as a vet overall..are you satisfied with hER? My vet doesnt even bring feeding and food up to me anymore...because I will stop him right in his tracks and he knows it! You know its a saying..""People will do what you let them do"!!


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## whiteleo (Sep 7, 2008)

nupe said:


> Besides your vet selling out to the Hill company...how is she as a vet??..just curious?? I dont even get upset when I hear these stories of vets and them pushing science diet or whatever anymore.....I just wouldnt have a convo about feeding with her anymore and if she starts to talk that BS..just let her talk and let it go in one ear and right out the other. thats why I asked how She is as a vet overall..are you satisfied with hER? My vet doesnt even bring feeding and food up to me anymore...because I will stop him right in his tracks and he knows it! You know its a saying..""People will do what you let them do"!!


Exactly, we don't go there with that conversation anymore, and I won't leave my vet for anything. He's the most compassionate vet I've come across, he gets down to the dogs or cats level, (on the floor on his knees) when he first comes into the room and plays a little. He'll comment on how wonderful their teeth look but we just don't go there with diet anymore as he does know I have had a hiccup or two and spent big money on my Cayenne when she got a turkey neck stuck and had to have a endoscopy done, but he also was her vet when I would come in constantly when she was a puppy with constant runny poo.


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