# Diarrhea again...



## OldGnarlHead (Feb 17, 2016)

So we're a few days into the week where we up her beef to 1-2 ounces and we've hit some diarrhea. This is what we know. 
Meals are 14 oz (still losing loads of weight) 
Meals are mostly pork and are a tad fattier than usual. 
Tiny TINY organ portions of alternating liver and pancreas
1 tsp slippery elm a day. 
Poops have been on the bony side prior to the diarrhea. 
Poop went from mucousy, to a normal poop, to mucousy again, then some liquid poop. 

We fasted from dinner yesterday to dinner today, gave her just some water, slippery elm, and diatomaceous earth (out of bentonite for the moment) for breakfast. 

What should we do now


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## naturalfeddogs (Jan 6, 2011)

Ok, so last time this happened it also started with beef, this time also with beef. It could be a beef intolerance. Cut out the beef, go back a protein to where things were good. Once they are again, skip beef and try something else. 

Also, I don't use the d earth because internally I don't believe it works as far as deworming, and that's the only reason I've ever heard of it being given. I don't think it's a replacement for bentonite clay(Re, correct me if I'm wrong). I would just stop the d earth. It's not doing anything.


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## OldGnarlHead (Feb 17, 2016)

Whenever we gave it to her before it made her poops more firm so I figured it at least couldn't hurt.
I was thinking a possible beef intolerance too. I might give it another day or so to see if it might just be her adjusting to the amount of fat, since I usually trim the fat a little bit. I didn't this prep day since she's still been losing so much weight. The only reason I think it might not be an intolerance is because we have given her beef tripe and lung treats before and she's been okay. I really hope it's not because we were going to feed her mostly beef organs...

Do you think we should go to lamb or deer if it doesn't work out? I have both on hand.

She hasn't pooped thus far today so it might have just been an adjustment to things... the beef we used before from 0-1 ounces had been frozen and thawed a few times so it was a little washed out, this beef was fresh from the store... I'm willing to give it a few more days to see for sure unless you all think it's a bad idea.


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## OtherGuy (Nov 30, 2016)

I keep coming back to the bony poops that always seem to proceed the diarrhea problems. I've always felt this is where the problem lies, not the beef. As you say, she's had other beef ingredients.

But it is perplexing. I know you've said you are doing PMR ratio meals, correct? Not swinging between bone-heavy and boneless meals? And she is chewing her (now frozen) bone-in portions well? 

The increased fat could be a factor, but you'd think she'd be fully fat conditioned by now.

Cricket has been the toughest case I've every encountered in cyberspace (or anywhere else). The bony poops have bothered me from the beginning and still are my leading culprit.

A beef intolerance isn't impossible, but it not my leading bet. Couldn't hurt to move on to something else for now and see what happens.

But why are we seeing bony poops?

Bill


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## OldGnarlHead (Feb 17, 2016)

Yeah, kinda wish it wasn't my dog, but it is and it should make raw feeding other dogs easier.... hopefully...

Well, from as far as we can calculate from bone percentages and such, we feed PMR ratios, 80/10/10. She gets bone every day, usually bone with every meal unless she only has one bone-in bit for the day, which case it's usually at dinner. Sometimes she is over on bone a little bit one day, but then we always compensate the next day, and it's never more than a half ounce, usually not even close to that. We think that maybe 10% bone is too much for her but we're not certain yet. 

Also, no poop yesterday and those lazy bums aren't even awake yet so who knows so far. Her dinner yesterday was a chicken foot with some pork and a little beef and she didn't wake us up in the middle of the night to go, so hopefully all has calmed down...


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## naturalfeddogs (Jan 6, 2011)

Following the 80/10/10 thing is fine, but it can be over thought, and stressed over too much as well. I haven't ever followed it exact, and I've never had a problem. I feed mostly meat, some bone and some organ. Bone I feed about every other day(give or take, depending on the dog), and organ weekly. That's basically how the 80/10/10 works out. So, what I'm getting at is maybe part of it is overthinking and worry that you are getting it to a "T". Just something to think about. Deep breath time...


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## OtherGuy (Nov 30, 2016)

naturalfeddogs said:


> Following the 80/10/10 thing is fine, but it can be over thought, and stressed over too much as well. I haven't ever followed it exact, and I've never had a problem. I feed mostly meat, some bone and some organ. Bone I feed about every other day(give or take, depending on the dog), and organ weekly. That's basically how the 80/10/10 works out. So, what I'm getting at is maybe part of it is overthinking and worry that you are getting it to a "T". Just something to think about. Deep breath time...


I would have less of an issue with "balance over time" *if* Cricket didn't consistently have bony stools prior to having diarrhea. To the best of my knowledge/memory this pattern has been pretty consistent.

Too much unchewed bone passing through the system can cause GI upset of this sort. It can also lead to constipation. We've both wondered about how much Cricket is chewing, and both suggested moving to frozen portions.

At this point I might be temped to move my bone source to something like chicken breasts with ribs or even ( as an experiment) trying preground. I don't like losing the benefits of bone chewing any more that I know you do, but I still suspect that Cricket's issues are bone related. So I'd see what happens with easy to pass bone sources. Chicken feet would be another source.

Hand feeding (to ensure chewing) would be another option.

Bill


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## OtherGuy (Nov 30, 2016)

OldGnarlHead said:


> Yeah, kinda wish it wasn't my dog, but it is and it should make raw feeding other dogs easier.... hopefully...
> 
> Well, from as far as we can calculate from bone percentages and such, we feed PMR ratios, 80/10/10. She gets bone every day, usually bone with every meal unless she only has one bone-in bit for the day, which case it's usually at dinner. Sometimes she is over on bone a little bit one day, but then we always compensate the next day, and it's never more than a half ounce, usually not even close to that. We think that maybe 10% bone is too much for her but we're not certain yet.
> 
> Also, no poop yesterday and those lazy bums aren't even awake yet so who knows so far. Her dinner yesterday was a chicken foot with some pork and a little beef and she didn't wake us up in the middle of the night to go, so hopefully all has calmed down...


I guess my question is if Cricket is now chomping up the bone-in sources well, or is she still gulping down pieces that are minimally chewed?

You've definitely had the toughest case I've ever seen. Kudos for not giving up.

Bill


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## OldGnarlHead (Feb 17, 2016)

She definitely chews everything well now, with it being frozen. We really don't want to go to ground bone, unless absolutely necessary. The benefits are just too many. for us to want to. And I agree, I want to be able to get to a point where we can feed her bony meals one day and boneless the next but if that never happens then it doesn't. 

And Cricket is my baby. We know raw feeding is the best for her and she does super well on it.

She just pooped and it was a good solid poop, so hopefully we nipped this thing in the bud, and hopefully it's smoother sailing from now until at least organs. Can't ask for too much..


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## OldGnarlHead (Feb 17, 2016)

Okay well we're back to normal poops so I think it was just the spike in the fat content. Her hip bones and spine are slowly receding back into her body and she gained a half pound from the last time we weighed her so that's super awesome. So far no other hiccups with the beef so fingers and paws crossed.


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## OtherGuy (Nov 30, 2016)

Good news.


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