# Pet stores :|



## CavePaws (Jan 25, 2011)

Pulled up to Pet Supply Plus with miss Indi because I needed to get some treats for agility. I was being lazy and could have cooked up some chicken for her, but hell, I wanted to get her some dehydrated liver treats. So, we walk in, say hello to the regular people working there as they know Indi and I at this point and move on to get our stuff. Well, I come back to see this raggety looking guy, buying a bag of gravy train, talking to the cashier about how skittish some animal (didn't catch which) was that they had in the store. As he was collecting his giant bag of nasty garbage he asked the cashier if they had any puppies for sale too.

I looked at Indi, our bag of treats, the cashier, then at the guy. I was about to open my mouth and say, "They don't sell them here. But hey, Town Lake Animal Shelter sells puppies of all kinds and they are cheap too!" Of course, any poor dog that ended up with him would be eating gravy train. I held my tongue, glared at him, and looked at the cashier just like "wtf"...I mean, seriously, how many people think it's okay to buy puppies from pet stores?! I'm already against them selling reptiles and hamsters there, but, could you imagine, puppies being stuck in those tiny little cages? 

Admittedly I have actually never seen a store that sold puppies. I hope I never do.


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## kevin bradley (Aug 9, 2009)

thankfully, you're too young to remember, Kelly.

Oh yeah, we had stores in the mall that sold puppies. Always remember seeing them there. I was too young to know how bad it was. This was back in the 80's... my guess is that it became pretty taboo sometime in the early 90's. But then again, you're talking to someone who gets pissed off when I hear of someone at work bringing a turtle home for their kids from the local pond or lake. I want to shake them and ask them if they are stupid.


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## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

yep, when I was young all the pet stores were in the malls, and there were definitely puppies in the windows.

As someone whose parents were dog rescuers 40 years before that term had even come into use, I was taught very young that the people who sell those puppies are bad, bad, people and I should never expect to get one of those puppies. 

But, there is a puppy mill pet store right up the street from me. It's called Uncle Bill's, and there are 2-3 of them in indianapolis. It's about half a mile from PetSmart and the parking lots always look equally busy.

I've not been in. I just don't have the heart to go look and see what's in there. Local groups picket and protest them all the time, so far to no avail. People just don't get it (or don't WANT to get it)


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## maplewood (Apr 14, 2011)

You know it's really one of the hardest questions for people who love animals and work in petstores deal with everyday. Especially around the holiday's. These people can't be convinced that the puppies in pet stores come from bad places  They just want a puppy and want it now, no matter the cost.

On the flip side pet stores that do sell puppies are extremely defensive when you call them on it. I recall being in one in Indianapolis and my DH asked the girl where they got the GSD puppy from her reply was "local breeders" to which I popped out "local puppymill..." Boy if looks could kill  Yes I made a scene and they tossed me out.


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## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

They will always say they are from "local breeders," raised with loving care in perfect conditions. Mostly people don't understand that "USDA certified" doesn't mean crap, and the pet stores throw that out there alot to convince people they must be doing something right or the government wouldn't ok it.

Just a bunch of slick shills, and a bunch of buyers who I would call stupid but that's not it - it's that they don't care what they are doing to support animal cruelty as long as they get that cute puppy. They close their eyes to the fact that the mother dog is living in hell.

In this day and age, it takes 10 seconds to figure out where pet store dogs come from. If, in 1972, everyone I knew was aware of the source of those puppies, there's no excuse for not knowing it in 2011.


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## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

maplewood said:


> On the flip side pet stores that do sell puppies are extremely defensive when you call them on it. I recall being in one in Indianapolis and my DH asked the girl where they got the GSD puppy from her reply was "local breeders" to which I popped out "local puppymill..." Boy if looks could kill  Yes I made a scene and they tossed me out.


Good for you. Figures you were in Indy. What alot of people don't realize is that those kindly back-to-nature Amish and Mennonites run some of the largest and worst puppy mills in the US - and they are in the midwest toward the east.


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## RCTRIPLEFRESH5 (Feb 11, 2010)

we know people who own a puppy store and they sell hybrids..it boggles my mind..although he does sell a lot of boxers..but mostly small hybrids


CavePaws said:


> Pulled up to Pet Supply Plus with miss Indi because I needed to get some treats for agility. I was being lazy and could have cooked up some chicken for her, but hell, I wanted to get her some dehydrated liver treats. So, we walk in, say hello to the regular people working there as they know Indi and I at this point and move on to get our stuff. Well, I come back to see this raggety looking guy, buying a bag of gravy train, talking to the cashier about how skittish some animal (didn't catch which) was that they had in the store. As he was collecting his giant bag of nasty garbage he asked the cashier if they had any puppies for sale too.
> 
> I looked at Indi, our bag of treats, the cashier, then at the guy. I was about to open my mouth and say, "They don't sell them here. But hey, Town Lake Animal Shelter sells puppies of all kinds and they are cheap too!" Of course, any poor dog that ended up with him would be eating gravy train. I held my tongue, glared at him, and looked at the cashier just like "wtf"...I mean, seriously, how many people think it's okay to buy puppies from pet stores?! I'm already against them selling reptiles and hamsters there, but, could you imagine, puppies being stuck in those tiny little cages?
> 
> Admittedly I have actually never seen a store that sold puppies. I hope I never do.


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## hmbutler (Aug 4, 2011)

Have they banned the sale of puppies in pet stores over there? Or they just dont do it anymore?

We have a few pet stores locally, only one actually sells animals, but they ALWAYS have puppies and kittens for sale, and often rabbits, guinnea pigs and birds too. I hate seeing them stuck in their little cages  which is how we ended up with Duke, because every time I go in I want to take all the pets home haha.

But in Perth (capital city 2 hours away from me) there are HEAPS of pet stores with puppies and kittens for sale, usually in shopping malls. It's sad  but I didn't realise it wasn't an "old" thing!


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## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

No, not banned. There are some large pet store chains (petsmart, petco) that voluntarily don't sell pets but I know our PetSmart has cats from a local rescue group. 

Most of the ones that do are local chains. 

And this one just drives me crazy - a local dog trainer advertising "DESIGNER DOGS." So sickening.
Upton's Indianapolis Dog Training-Dog Boarding - and German Shepherds for sale| Dog Training prices|General Information

This was actually the first trainer we took Rebel to (they are kind of close to us, I didn't see the website) and it became obvious in the first few minutes with a trainer walking around with Rebel that they believe in the pain method of training. I didn't know much of anything about dog training (like zero) but the woman put a choke chain on him and was yanking the hell out of his neck, so we made her stop.

AND, we spoke to the owner - he advised us to not keep Rebel because he would turn on us - he was 6 and we didn't know his history. This from a MASTER TRAINER?

And the poor German Shepherds they sell - horrible back legs.

No wonder they add puppy mills to their services.


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## hmbutler (Aug 4, 2011)

xellil said:


> This was actually the first trainer we took Rebel to (they are kind of close to us, I didn't see the website) and it became obvious in the first few minutes with a trainer walking around with Rebel that they believe in the pain method of training. I didn't know much of anything about dog training (like zero) but the woman put a choke chain on him and was yanking the hell out of his neck, so we made her stop.


The first trainer I took Duke to was similar, at the first class she told me I had to buy a choke chain and she had one in her car for him to use for that lesson. I didn't think much of it, because he was only so small he didn't pull on his lead much, he just jumped around with bundles of energy. But the lady did grab him at one point and push him down to "teach" him to lay down... she also smacked his jaw when he wouldnt stop biting his lead (he was a couple of months old, he was just a baby and didnt know what to do!). I didn't want to follow her methods, and stopped going after about 2 or 3 classes. After that I trained him at home and didn't think I was doing too badly, but now that he's so big I realise I made a mistake doing that and have enrolled him in some classes that start in a few weeks, and I have had very good reviews about this lot :biggrin: can't wait to start


We have a few pet stores that purely sell pet products, beds, food, etc etc. But yeah like I said, in Perth they have puppies at most of the stores. Pets Paradise are the main culprits... and I remember seeing an american pet store website and it had the same colouring and logo etc as pet's paradise, so I think they are run by the same mob (even though it says 100% Australian owned - I think thats just because it's franchises, so every franchise is owned locally). Have a look, does the website ring any bells?
Pets Paradise

Anyway they always have puppies and kittens. And heaps of them, in glass cages stacked on top of one another. At least my local puppy selling pet store keeps the dogs in a kennel/play pen type thing on the grass outside (when the weather is nice), not in a stuff closed in glass cabinet.. yuck. Also, Pet's Paradise have the exclusive rights to EVO in Australia, which is why my cat gets Felidae instead (they are the only two grain-free options in the entire Country...), plus they charge something like $140 for the large bag of EVO, which costs $48 on amazon from the US.


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## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

No I can't say i recognize that logo - there was a local store that used cartoon animals like that but they are closed down - the city was able to sue them for not paying sales tax. I think the bigger one in New York - Petland - has stopped selling puppy mill dogs. I think it's interesting on that website you have to dig around before you see that they are selling dogs.

And I'm glad you are starting classes - the trainer we ended up with was the fourth one we tried. There are alot of bad/ineffective trainers out there, if you ask me.


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## minnieme (Jul 6, 2011)

There are still chain pet stores around here that sell puppies and kittens among other pets. They always looks sooo unhealthy and miserable.


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## Caty M (Aug 13, 2010)

The mall closest to me has a Petland.. puppy mills top buyer I'd imagine. Lots of pet stores do sell dogs here. I like Petcetera more because they do adoption but they still sell birds, bunnies and ferrets.


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## hmbutler (Aug 4, 2011)

What's the difference between buying and adopting? Is it just that they go through an approval process with adoptions? Is that why it isn't called "buying" a dog? I've always wondered lol


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## sozzle (May 18, 2011)

Well we have two petstores in my small town that sell puppies, kittens, birds, guinea pigs, fish etc. All sorts, I don't disagree with them particularly but then I wouldn't buy a dog from them on principle as they are way way overpriced in my opinion. We don't have puppy mills in NZ. You could get one cheaper (dog) from a breeder or obviously a rescue. A friend of mine volunteered in a rescue (SPCA) many years ago and said that she would never get a dog from there as they were all the aggressive breeds and dogs with major problems that should be put down which was very very strong coming from her as she doesn't believe in killing animals for food and goes to great lengths to treat her own animals (mostly chickens, goats, pigs, sheep,, horses, cats) when sick, whereas other people would probably just put them out of their misery with a quick twist of the neck (chickens I mean). I have heard about the puppy mills in USA and the awful conditions they are kept in.
Of course many people get perfectly good dogs from rescues including other friends of mine, so obviously that was just her opinion on what she witnessed there.


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## Zar (Sep 22, 2011)

hmbutler said:


> What's the difference between buying and adopting? Is it just that they go through an approval process with adoptions? Is that why it isn't called "buying" a dog? I've always wondered lol


Around here adopting is usually for rescues/shelters, rather than buying a puppy someone intentionally bred. The price you pay for adopting a dog usually isn't for profit either (and therefore usually cheaper).


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## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

hmbutler said:


> What's the difference between buying and adopting? Is it just that they go through an approval process with adoptions? Is that why it isn't called "buying" a dog? I've always wondered lol


When you adopt, you do pay money but it goes toward the care of the dogs, not into someone's personal pocket to do with whatever they wish. The only rescues I give money to have their nonprofit designation, which means the vast majority of the money goes directly to the dogs. And most rescuers don't get any money at all for doing it.

And yes, i do have that problem with PetSmart etc. that don't sell puppy mill dogs. Where do all those birds come from? Definitely a profit business in animals that don't have four legs.


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## Jacksons Mom (Jun 13, 2010)

There is still two stores around here that I know of that sell puppies. Most of the other ones closed thankfully. It always broke my heart. I mean, at least the ones in the malls got played with. They had little rooms where you could go play with a puppy and they were always super friendly and sweet. But there was this one store that JUST closed a few months ago near my house and I went in there once and it was heartbreaking -- the dogs looked sickly, they were in like a big fish tank basically. With just newspaper underneath them and it was sooo sad. But I still hear of lots of people who buy puppies from pet stores... so sad.


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## shellbell (Sep 24, 2011)

There are actually a number of stores around here that sell puppies, unfortunately. But then again, I do live in one of the puppy mill capitols of the country. Pampered Pets is the chain store at the area malls. I’ve seen six week old lab puppies for sale in that store. There is also a huge store across from the mall called “Missouri Puppy Expo”. Seriously. I’ve never been in it, but I think they sell a variety of breeds…including designer breeds. Someone I work with was telling me about how her daughter bought a cocker spaniel puppy from there. I REALLY had to bite my tongue. And then I heard about all the health problems the puppy had….including cherry eye in both eyes, and some respiratory problems. I wonder why? 

I’ve also seen a number of other smaller stores dotted throughout Missouri that sell puppies….


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## schtuffy (May 17, 2010)

There used to be a pet store that sold puppies at our local mall too. Recently they moved out of the mall to their own location. Growing up I always heard the puppy mill story, but their site says 'no backyard breeders.'

Here's a link to their site:
Today's Pet

I'm curious as to what you all think about it. I will NEVER buy a dog from here, but I want to know your opinions because sadly, their turnover rate for puppies is ridiculously high. Every week I see new dogs hwell:


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## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

schtuffy said:


> There used to be a pet store that sold puppies at our local mall too. Recently they moved out of the mall to their own location. Growing up I always heard the puppy mill story, but their site says 'no backyard breeders.'
> 
> Here's a link to their site:
> Today's Pet
> ...


That is definintely a puppy mill outlet. No puppy mill seller admits they are from puppy mills - and all that hooey about checking for genetic defects is just that - hooey.

In fact, I have rarely seen a web page that so obiously says they are getting dogs from puppy mills - going from "breeder" to quarantine, etc. - if they are too sick they just go back to the breeder, who will euthanize them. 

And that "where do our puppies come from?" page? It never says where they come from. Go figure.

Edited to add: And that "14,000 breeders from 27 states" thing - that is probably true. They have professional "buyers" who put in orders. 

That's alot of fricken dogs. Too bad so many people are willing to overlook their real source.


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## schtuffy (May 17, 2010)

Maybe it's just me, but I think putting them into quarantine for 5 days is cruel. All those pictures look so cold and sterile to me...I'd rather puppies be playing with other puppies in pens instead of caged into crates from the moment they leave their mothers. These dogs are just on display in crates where they are forced to go to the bathroom where they sleep, and are woken up from their naps to be taken out so rowdy children can manhandle them. Are all those vet checks really necessary? hwell:


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## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

I totally agree - but because they take them from their mothers so young, and because they don't have the best conditions when they are born, alot of them are sick. I wish I knew what percentage came through pet stores with respiratory problems - I bet it's very high.

I just watched people's court - a woman bought a chihuahua from a pet store for $1000 and told the judge "I bought him from a pet store but he came from a breeder." What a horrible woman. She got it at five weeks old.

Of course, she had the dog a few days before she realized she didn't want it any more, sold it to someone who didn't pay her who then re-sold it to someone who then disappeared, so no one knows where the little dog is. It's just shameful.


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## KlaMarie (Dec 30, 2010)

There is a pet shop at our local mall still. Puppies, kittens, reptils, rabbits...... I love the mall but avoid that end like the plague because it rips at my heart just to walk by, even when I don't look in. Poor babies  I cannot fathom how it is still in business. That mall is in one of the most expensive, upscale areas of the city. Why is it still there!?


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## schtuffy (May 17, 2010)

Oh right, you just reminded me...this pet store I mentioned also has parrots. All sorts of parrots...conures, Amazons, greys, but mostly cockatoos...And as some of you may know my opinions on cockatoos...worst impulse bird purchase people make


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## minnieme (Jul 6, 2011)

schtuffy said:


> Oh right, you just reminded me...this pet store I mentioned also has parrots. All sorts of parrots...conures, Amazons, greys, but mostly cockatoos...And as some of you may know my opinions on cockatoos...worst impulse bird purchase people make


Look up the Hunte Corporation -- they are by and large the biggest distributor of puppies in the world. Most pet shop puppies come from them. I watched a documentary about them.....it was seriously sick.


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## BrownieM (Aug 30, 2010)

My first dog, as a child (maybe 2nd or 3rd grade?) a boston terrier, came from a pet store at a mall. We didn't know any better. He had lots of problems, eye and skin. We actually were only able to keep him for about a week because I was so severely allergic. Thankfully our neighbor took him. They took wonderful care of him. Fast forward about 5 years and we got our first well bred standard poodle from a reputable breeder who showed, health tested, etc. He was very healthy and lived until he died of cancer at 11. He never had any health issues aside from a very sensitive tummy. The only thing we regret is having fed him that nasty cardboard tasting expensive kibble crap from the vet. The last several months of his life my mom made homemade stew for him. If only I had known what I know now about diet. 

I am only 25 so dogs sold in pet stores hasn't been an extinct occurrence for too long. In fact...Petland here in Missouri still does sell dogs.   And, when I lived in Chicago, there was a Pocket Puppies store with newspaper covering the window so nobody could see inside. :frown:


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## hmbutler (Aug 4, 2011)

BrownieM said:


> My first dog, as a child (maybe 2nd or 3rd grade?) a boston terrier, came from a pet store at a mall. We didn't know any better.


I think all my pets have come from pet shops or backyard breeders!! The first dog I remember, I don't know where mum and dad got him (I was only little), but they paid like $25 or something lol so I'm guessing BYB. He was an AWESOME dog though, amazing with us kids, I think he was a lhasa apso cross, he was great. Unfortunately he got hit by a car when he was about 6. The next dog, a shitzu x bichon was from a pet shop, I remember picking him out with mum (I was about 10 or 11). We also had a cat, who I think was just from someone who's roaming cat got knocked up so mum got a kitten for us kids.

My pets now are both from pet shops. I wanted to get a cat/kitten from the local rescue places, but they didn't have any! So we ended up getting Nala from a pet shop. And Duke was a bit of an impulse buy, steven was with me at the pet shop and was sucked in by the big puppy dog eyes, and if he was saying yes to a dog, I wasn't saying no lol.

I don't know if I'd ever go to a proper breeder, unless we ever start out again with a puppy. I think for our second dog (if that ever happens), it'll come from a rescue. I've got my eye on a few but the husband is yet to give in :frown:


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## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

I really believe a pet store in australia and a pet store in the US are totally different animals (so to speak).

For one thing, here in the US pet store dogs are normallly 2-3 times what they are worth. If you go to a back yard breeder you can get a chihuahua for about $250 (we're not talking good breeders here) but from a pet store you might pay $1200-$1500.

And a mixed breed "designer dog" costs about the same!

I think people believe if they pay alot, they get alot. 

In fact, I would buy a dog from a back yard breeder any day because they aren't from puppy mills. And they are alot cheaper.

And a store called "pocket Puppies." that's just sickening. Thank you, Paris Hilton. May you burn in hell.


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## hmbutler (Aug 4, 2011)

xellil said:


> For one thing, here in the US pet store dogs are normallly 2-3 times what they are worth. If you go to a back yard breeder you can get a chihuahua for about $250 (we're not talking good breeders here) but from a pet store you might pay $1200-$1500.
> 
> And a mixed breed "designer dog" costs about the same!


Yeah see the local pet shop where I got Duke would sell chihauhau's for about $500 I reckon (if advertising them as "pure bred") - same with jack russels, and maltese x shitzu. Anywhere between $500-$700 for those kinds of pups. "Designer breeds" usually cost more, to make people think they are exotic and rare, and therefore, the best.

A BYB here would sell a "purebred" (who really knows how purebred these dogs are) lab for about $500 - $800 without any papers (over a grand with papers), and we got Duke from the pet store for $600 I think... maybe $695? I can't remember. They said he is purebred, but of course he has no papers and I can guarantee the pet shop did not view his parents to be sure about it lol. They did have the parents owners contact details though, so I guess if I'd ever pushed the matter, I may have been able to meet them. But at the time, I just wanted to pay for my cutie patootie little pup and take him home! lol. 

I think the pet shop makes a fair profit on their pups though so they mustn't pay the people much at all. But really I think the dogs they sell are just brought in by people who had an accidental litter and haven't been able to sell/give away all the pups, so they take them to the pet shop to get rid of them (as opposed to getting people to breed dogs for the purpose of selling them from the shop). I remember we did that for our cat when I was about 8 or 9, I was gutted leaving those little kittens behind in the cage at the petshop :sad: I still remember their cute little faces, begging me not to leave them!!


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## Davey (Oct 11, 2011)

Our local mall also still has a pet store that sells puppies. They look so sad...

My kids beg us to let them stop there any time we walk past it, and it is so hard for them to understand why it is awful for puppies to be sold from a store like this. We are in Florida, and recently there was a puppy mill that was shut down. It was heartbreaking to see the conditions that the mothers were forced to live in. The small cages were outside, in the elements, and it was filthy. The mothers were malnourished because they did nothing but breed litter after litter. Never, ever, would I buy a dog from a pet store!


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## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

Davey said:


> Our local mall also still has a pet store that sells puppies. They look so sad...
> 
> My kids beg us to let them stop there any time we walk past it, and it is so hard for them to understand why it is awful for puppies to be sold from a store like this. We are in Florida, and recently there was a puppy mill that was shut down. It was heartbreaking to see the conditions that the mothers were forced to live in. The small cages were outside, in the elements, and it was filthy. The mothers were malnourished because they did nothing but breed litter after litter. Never, ever, would I buy a dog from a pet store!


At least you are teaching your children about it. 

I worked with someone who took their kids down to a pet store and bought a malti-poo even though I had sent him alot of information about where those dogs come from, as well as a large selection of malti-poos on petfinder. 

he blew it all off, paid $1000 for a dog that has several health issues. He knew they came from puppy mills and he didn't care. 

And what did that teach his two young boys? You will do better by your children than he is doing by his.


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## Davey (Oct 11, 2011)

Yes, you are right about what we are teaching our kids. We have four cats and one dog. They have all come from the pound or rescue societies. Both of my kids want to work for the ASPCA when they grows up, so the plight of animals is very much in their minds.


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## SerenityFL (Sep 28, 2010)

xellil said:


> They will always say they are from "local breeders," raised with loving care in perfect conditions. Mostly people don't understand that "USDA certified" doesn't mean crap, and the pet stores throw that out there alot to convince people they must be doing something right or the government wouldn't ok it.
> 
> Just a bunch of slick shills, and a bunch of buyers who I would call stupid but that's not it - it's that they don't care what they are doing to support animal cruelty as long as they get that cute puppy. They close their eyes to the fact that the mother dog is living in hell.
> 
> In this day and age, it takes 10 seconds to figure out where pet store dogs come from. If, in 1972, everyone I knew was aware of the source of those puppies, there's no excuse for not knowing it in 2011.


I just went in to a pet store here in Maine to find the hoodlums some boots for the winter. What did I see? Puppies and kittens for sale. I asked if they came from a puppy mill. Yep, straight out.

Their answer? Standard Operating Procedure, (SOP): "No, they come from local breeders. They're USDA certified."

I said, "In other words, puppy mills?"

The stopped talking to me.


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## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

SerenityFL said:


> I just went in to a pet store here in Maine to find the hoodlums some boots for the winter. What did I see? Puppies and kittens for sale. I asked if they came from a puppy mill. Yep, straight out.
> 
> Their answer? Standard Operating Procedure, (SOP): "No, they come from local breeders. They're USDA certified."
> 
> ...


They are very slick. And yet... I just don't think there is any excuse, in this day and age, not to know where those dogs are bred.

what kills me is they are so expensive - sometimes I think people do it just so they can brag on how much they paid for their dog. It's not quite as snooty to say you got it from a newspaper ad or craigslist for $200.

And i think in many cases, you could get a dog for a similar price from an honest-to-goodness ethical breeder. But if you do that, or go to a rescue, someone might actually question you on how you plan to raise the dog and determine if the family is a good fit. 

And I find it so weird that a dog can be certified like a t-bone steak by the USDA.


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## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

Davey said:


> Yes, you are right about what we are teaching our kids. We have four cats and one dog. They have all come from the pound or rescue societies. Both of my kids want to work for the ASPCA when they grows up, so the plight of animals is very much in their minds.


I know I am the way I am because of my parents - taking in the unwanted, hurt, rejected animals in their world long before "animal rescue" was even imagined. Had my parents wanted top bloodlines from the best breeders, or gone to the mall to get a dog, I might would think differently. But they talked to me like you are talking to your kids - I hope they do end up in animal welfare! I wish I had done it way back when.


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## KittyKat (Feb 11, 2011)

There was a store that sold puppies up here. I went in and asked the girl about it. Of course she said they came from local, ethical breeders. I said "no ethical breeder would hand their puppies over to some store to sell off". The girl shrugged and said thats just what they are told.

They are not longer open afaik...


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## Kat (Jul 12, 2011)

I used to work at a petstore that worked with a local cat rescue so we always had cats and kittens for adoption and people would always ask when we were going to get puppies in, it seems that a lot of people dont really know just how bad it is. There are 2 petstores where I live that still sell puppies. What disgusts me is one of the petstores has a ''deal'' where you can bring the puppy home for a ''trial'' run which lasts up to a week, and the person can decide if they want to keep the puppy or not, and if they dont want it they can just return it for their money back. I cant even imagine the stress the poor puppies have to go through being tossed around like accessories.

I was curious what that petstore is advertising right now on their site, and this is horrible.... 
_ALL OF OUR PUPPIES HAVE REDUCED IN PRICE!!!!

Pomeranian X DESPERATELY needs a home, has been with us for 4 months. Reduced by $500, give this pup a home!_


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## hmbutler (Aug 4, 2011)

See, it's threads and forums like this that make me realise how sheltered my life has been... "puppy mill" isn't even a term we use here, I don't know if they are around or if they are EVERYWHERE and no one cares, but I honestly would not have a clue if there have ever been puppy mills in my area, and if they have been discovered and shut down. I never thought buying a dog from a pet store would be a potentially bad thing. (I assume no one here would breed cats for the purpose of selling them, as they would with puppy's in a puppy mill, because cats are always in abudance and pet shops and rescues often can't find homes for them).

This forum has really opened my eyes to animal rights and the kind of horrors that people put animals through for the sake of making a buck... I guess because I could never comprehend owning female dogs just for the sake of constant, back-to-back breeding, and keep them in appalling conditions, I naively assume no one could do that to an animal...

But I'm also sure if I spoke to my mother about these things, she would probably have never thought of it like that either, which is why we always had pets from pet shops! However she is more of a "a dog is a dog, not a family member" type person I think (not because she doesn't care for them, it's just the way she was raised too I think. She loves my pets, but she wouldn't put as much effort in to caring for them as I do). I'll be sure to raise my future kids to think about animals the way I now think, hopefully I can do some good there :wink:


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## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

Well, I guess Australia is not immune after all. Seems the term over there is puppy farms:

Australian puppy mills // Where do puppies come from?

I didn't know about puppy mills until maybe 7 or 8 years ago. Like you, it's kind of beyond imagination.

but I know in the US during the depression in the 1930s, the US government went around teaching farmers how to turn dogs into cash crops to replace wheat, beans etc. that they either couldn't make money on or the dust bowl had blown away. So here, puppy mills were government supported.

Like hoarding. How people who "love" animals can make them suffer horribly for years - hard to get your head around.


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## hmbutler (Aug 4, 2011)

thanks for that, that's very interesting to read... It appears I have just been ignorant up until now!! I shouldn't put so much faith in humanity (and by so much, I mean very little... but it's still too much!)


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## BrownieM (Aug 30, 2010)

Unfortunately, just because you haven't heard of it does not mean it does not exist, hmbutler. 

Also, be careful not to get confused about animal rights. Animals rights is quite different from animal welfare. Animal rights means that we want animals to have their own rights and thus we would not be able to own them, etc. Animal welfare means that we are looking after what is best for the animal. Two very different concepts.


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## hmbutler (Aug 4, 2011)

BrownieM said:


> Unfortunately, just because you haven't heard of it does not mean it does not exist, hmbutler.
> 
> Also, be careful not to get confused about animal rights. Animals rights is quite different from animal welfare. Animal rights means that we want animals to have their own rights and thus we would not be able to own them, etc. Animal welfare means that we are looking after what is best for the animal. Two very different concepts.


Yeah I know... you know what they say - ignorance is bliss!

Yes animal welfare is what I meant lol... you can see I'm very new to all this! It's certainly not part of how I was raised, and it's not something that any of my friends/colleagues/family discuss, so I'm really just getting all my info online. Hopefully I can make a change in my household and that may get a message through to my friends and family, and I might be able to make a difference with other people and their pets too


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## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

I think I was wrong, unfortunately. It looks like australia is almost just as bad as the US. Those "accidental litters" happen regularly by backyard breeders, for one thing. And Australia also has the big puppy mills, perfectly legal, with an extremely minimum standard of care. And if they are like the US, even the minimum standard is ignored.

Well, at least you know now!

It just seems a little different - first, most of the dogs I have seen in pet stores are small dogs, with the occasional lab thrown in. And it seems they are cheaper in Australia.


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