# Hoping to make the switch - a little nervous.....



## julzzzz (Mar 3, 2013)

Hello,

I'm posting to get some guidance about switching our dog to raw. I have been researching online and I have an appointment with our vet in a few weeks. I have a feeling it'll be the best food for him, but I'm nervous about making the switch.

He is a 45lb, 2 year old portuguese water dog. He's very active, loves to play, and we love having him as part of our family. I have a feeling he has yeast issues.....he has had many ear infections as a puppy, parasites when he was still with the breeder, slight baldness around the eyes, yeasty bum, yeast in his paws (licks them like crazy) and now I think it's affecting his skin. He scratches a lot during the day and at night and I know it's causing him discomfort.

One reason I'd like to go raw is because there are very few carbohydrates and sugars. Those are 2 things yeast can thrive on (this coming from Dr. Google). Tricky part is, he isn't a big eater.....never has been (maybe he is trying to tell me something). He is a grazer and I've tried putting his food down for 10 minutes then taking it away, but I've failed. With a new baby around it's been challenging to be so on top of that method. I'm worried that if I make the switch to raw he'll keep up this "sniff and walk away" attitude and I'll be stuck with a bunch of raw food he won't eat.


Other concerns I have:

1) I'm planning on starting off purchasing from a raw food farm. Although expensive, I imagine the patties are the most convenient and I'd prefer to make this as easy as possible. How can I tell if each patty has all the essential nutrients for him?

2) What if I prepare the raw food and he doesn't eat it right away.......How long do I keep it in the bowl for?

3) How long can you keep your raw food in the freezer? Ideally we'd stock up by keeping the food in our basement freezer.

4) I have a soon-to-be crawling baby (he is 6 months now). What advice can you offer regarding how to keep the baby safe......my dog does enjoy sneaking in a lick here and there. We are trying to train him not too and he is pretty good....I guess baby's feet are too tasty!

5) Are certain supplements a good idea (maybe fish oil)?

6) I've read that it's best to start the transition with chicken and slowly move to other proteins. Does this also mean it's best to hold off on introducing things like liver, organs, turkey necks, etc.?

7) I plan on having a separate bowl for the raw food, a separate sponge to clean it.....now I just need to figure out other "parts of the routine". Any suggestions? Where do I feed him so that he doesn't bring the food off the plate onto our floor? 


Any other guidance would be great (websites, articles, etc.). I've been online quite a bit and did many searches on YouTube and on Facebook. We have recently transitioned him to a low-glycemic kibble right now because I want him off the vet's kibble. While searching for this low glycemic kibble many of the pet store workers said going raw is the best thing to do. I don't know whether to be patient with this new kibble or to just start him raw as soon as I clear it with the vet (she's great and I definitely want to run it by her). I think my major issue is patience, I know it takes many weeks for the dog's diet to translate into better health or signs of change......I'm worried I won't be able to tough it out. Especially if there's a flare up while he is on raw - I might doubt my decision. Plus there's a good chance my hubby will want to stick it out with the kibble just to see if it helps our little guy. I read that kibble is one of the worst foods to give and now I can't get that out of my head.

Any support would be great.......thanks!
j


----------



## Mandy (Aug 30, 2012)

Welcome to the forum! I switched my dog over to raw because he was starting to have issues on kibble. He was throwing up a lot and had loose stools. I had tried several high end kibbles, all with the same results. I now know that it's possible that I just didn't give each brand of kibble enough time to work, but in reality I really don't care. My boy is thriving on raw so I have absolutely no intention on going back. 

What kind of vet are you going to see? If it's a conventional vet, don't be surprised at all if they try to sway you from feeding raw. A lot of vets just don't agree with raw feeding. If you're going to a holistic vet though, you should get pointed in the right direction.

Now to answer your questions...

1) I can't help on the premade raw foods as I feed actual raw meat. There are threads on pre-made raw diets though so you can find info in those if nobody else can answer this question.

2) I believe the same rule should apply with raw that you would use for kibble. If he doesn't eat within 15-20 minutes, pick it up and put it in the refrigerator until the next meal. It's advisable not to offer any other foods (including treats) so the next time the meal is offered, he'll be hungry and will eat it. I found with my boy Logan who was pretty unenthusiastic about kibble, he took to raw right away. He's been on raw since August 2012 and has not rejected a single meal. On kibble, he'd eat when he felt like it which meant breakfast about 25% of the time and then he'd usually eat dinner. I wouldn't worry too much about your dog not accepting it. Chances are good he'll get into it from the get go. 

3) Well, people feed freezer burnt meats with no problems at all so you can store meat for a long time. I personally prefer to go with a month or two supply at a time. It's just my personal preference and it's working well for me. When I put new meats in, I always make sure to rotate it so the older meats get used first. I also put dates on every bag so I know how long it's been in there. This is especially helpful with pork since I like to freeze it for a minimum of 3 weeks before I feed it.

4) Would you believe that kibble has just as much, if not more, bacteria in it as raw foods? It is true! If your baby is healthy now with a kibble fed dog, it should be no different with a raw fed dog. Just use common sense and clean as you normally would when you prepare your own meals that use raw meats. If you want to be extra cautious you could clean your dog's paws and face when done eating. I feed my male on a towel on a tile portion of my floor and my female is fed on a towel in her crate. When they're done, both bowls get washed right away and the towels are washed every other day at worst.

5) If you're not going to feed fish then you should supplement with fish oil. I'm still researching on this part though so I can't really give you the definite answers you're looking for.

6) Yes. You should start with bone in chicken with the fat and skin removed. Once the stools are normal you would start adding the fat and skin back in. Again, once the stools are normal you can move on to the next protein which is usually turkey. From there, you'd move on to the red meats. Once they're getting a good variety of proteins with no stool issues then you can slowly start adding liver and organ meats. Liver and organs are the richest part of this diet so they need to be saved for last and added slowly. 

7) I already answered this one above, but I'll say it again.  My male is fed on a towel on a tile part of my floor while my female is fed on a towel in her crate. Some people will use an old sheet, some people feed exclusively outside. You just have to experiment and figure out which system will work best for you.

A great site to check into is Dedicated to proper carnivore nutrition - Prey Model Raw Feeding for Dogs & Cats . I feed my dogs using this method and everything so far has been going great! Also just do some more reading on this forum. You'll find tons of useful threads to sift through.


----------



## naturalfeddogs (Jan 6, 2011)

Here's a good link for you to help answer some of your questions How to Get Started | Prey Model Raw


----------



## lauren43 (Feb 6, 2011)

I agree with much of what Mandy said, but I will add my two cents. First and foremost you should be commended, you have a new baby and kept the dog!!! LOL I'm only kidding, if you see "I'm addicted to CL thread" you will understand why I say this. Too many ppl give away dogs for no good reason.




julzzzz said:


> 1) I'm planning on starting off purchasing from a raw food farm. Although expensive, I imagine the patties are the most convenient and I'd prefer to make this as easy as possible. How can I tell if each patty has all the essential nutrients for him?


First off I know nothing about pre-mades, but if your nervous about straight raw meat this is a great way to get used to the idea.



julzzzz said:


> 2) What if I prepare the raw food and he doesn't eat it right away.......How long do I keep it in the bowl for?


I would give him 15 mins, take the bowl away. He gets another try next meal. Now if your dog is really stubborn, you may have to spice it up, but a dog can go 3-5 days without eating with very few issues..If your worried it will go bad, it can be re-frozen. 



julzzzz said:


> 3) How long can you keep your raw food in the freezer? Ideally we'd stock up by keeping the food in our basement freezer.


Unlimited? LOL. I have no idea how old most of the meat in my freezer is. I did pick up some venison from a hunter that was said to be 2+ years old that didn't settle well with my dog. But Avery has eaten chicken that smelled so repulsive with no ill effects. He has also had beef that was over 2 years old without issue. Feed what your comfortable with. And let the dog tell you how the food is working with him...



julzzzz said:


> 4) I have a soon-to-be crawling baby (he is 6 months now). What advice can you offer regarding how to keep the baby safe......my dog does enjoy sneaking in a lick here and there. We are trying to train him not too and he is pretty good....I guess baby's feet are too tasty!


My biggest thing with babies is let the dog eat in peace. Feed him in his crate or outside where no one can bother him. I know many ppl feed on a towel but with a crawling baby I wouldn't recommend it.



julzzzz said:


> 5) Are certain supplements a good idea (maybe fish oil)?


I use fish oil, my dog has very dry skin and it seems to help a bit. You want fish oil for the omega 3's if you feed grass fed beef or actual fish your dog may get his full intake of omega 3's from those.



julzzzz said:


> 6) I've read that it's best to start the transition with chicken and slowly move to other proteins. Does this also mean it's best to hold off on introducing things like liver, organs, turkey necks, etc.?


Yes! Chicken first. I started with chicken quarters, many her recommend backs (I like the quarters because they are a bit more meaty). I would go two weeks with chicken only. Some ppl remove fat and skin, I did not but my dog has an iron gut. Check his poops daily. If he's having nicely formed poo (some will be soft at the beginning and some will be hard) but as long as your not having explosive liquid diarrhea (sorry for the graphic description) your in the clear. Then in week 3 start with turkey, turkey necks are great. The link Naturalfeddogs gave you is very informative on how to get started.



julzzzz said:


> 7) I plan on having a separate bowl for the raw food, a separate sponge to clean it.....now I just need to figure out other "parts of the routine". Any suggestions? Where do I feed him so that he doesn't bring the food off the plate onto our floor?


I personally do not use a bowl (though I've thought of getting one because prep would be much easier)...I feed my dog frozen (I know I'm mean), but I never remember to thaw it out. Some dogs are gulpers, it doesn't sound like your dog will be one, but watch his first meal (and every meal really)..see if he is taking time to really crunch the bone or if he is trying to eat the darn thing whole. That's why size is important. If it were me I'd start with chicken quarters, look for small ones, you don't want to feed more than 9oz total to start (overfeeding can also cause diarrhea too)..Like I said above I recommend a crate, that way you can still watch him eat but no one can interfere with his eating. I assure you he will not keep the meat in the bowl and he will want to take it out and find a comfy place to eat it (which is why ppl train their dogs to eat on towels). I just wipe down Avery's crate when he's done, sometimes I use antibacterial but only if he really leaves a mess, if he cleans up well sometimes I don't even wipe it down (but its just me here, no kids to worry about)...Some ppl dog let their dogs lick them right after a meal, I personally don't worry about it.



julzzzz said:


> Any other guidance would be great (websites, articles, etc.). I've been online quite a bit and did many searches on YouTube and on Facebook. We have recently transitioned him to a low-glycemic kibble right now because I want him off the vet's kibble. While searching for this low glycemic kibble many of the pet store workers said going raw is the best thing to do. I don't know whether to be patient with this new kibble or to just start him raw as soon as I clear it with the vet (she's great and I definitely want to run it by her). I think my major issue is patience, I know it takes many weeks for the dog's diet to translate into better health or signs of change......I'm worried I won't be able to tough it out. Especially if there's a flare up while he is on raw - I might doubt my decision. Plus there's a good chance my hubby will want to stick it out with the kibble just to see if it helps our little guy. I read that kibble is one of the worst foods to give and now I can't get that out of my head.
> 
> Any support would be great.......thanks!
> j


Relax. If your going to switch to raw you really have to give it a full chance. Not just a few weeks but at least 3 months. Some dogs get "worse" while transitioning, this is their body trying to adjust from processing kibble to processing raw. I should also warn you, your vet may not like this idea. Some vets are well versed in pet nutrition, some however are not. I've had vets tell me they don't agree with what I'm feeding, though my current vet is awesome!

What kibble is he on? And how long has he been on it?


----------



## sozzle (May 18, 2011)

Welcome. This site may be helpful to you also, Jane Anderson is an Australian Portuguese Water dog breeder and has been feeding raw for many years. You are also able to ask questions from her site, although I haven't visited it for a long time.

Raw Feeding FAQ

All the best.


----------



## julzzzz (Mar 3, 2013)

Thanks for the links and the advice. I really need the support.

I think I'm nervous about not knowing what to get, what has the right nutrients, what he shouldn't eat right away, etc. I think pre-made might help me with the transition. I give him marrow bones, knee caps, and other delightful things now....and I'll continue to get them for him.

Our dog started on Fromm's in April 2010 when we got him. He was switched to the vet's Prescription Diet Ultra Allergen Free z/d in mid-Feb of this year. I didn't like what it was doing to his poo and we all know how much information we get from poop! So right now he is on Pulsar Horizon's kibble and he's only been on it for a few days. When we met with the vet I don't think she was anti-raw....it was ME that wasn't ready for the thought of it. Which is why she suggested staying with a kibble.

I don't usually do "what ifs", but if the vet supports our decision for going raw next weekend, should we keep him on the kibble or take the plunge? I'm asking because I'm worried about how much I've been toying with his digestive system and now it'll get even more confused.

Now I need to work on my husband......need to share all of this information with him and avoid the "I think you are going crazy" look!

j


----------



## FBarnes (Feb 17, 2013)

One reason I switched to raw was because my dog had constant ear infections. Those diseappeared immediately. I didn't realize that the hotspots he licked on constantly on his legs would also be a thing of the past. I thought it was nervousness or boredom, and it was apparently allergy.

There were dozens of cases of human salmonella in the Diamond kibble recall last summer. I would worry more about kibble than raw food because we don't think about touching kibble with our bare hands - after all, it's cooked. And yet... it can make us very sick.

A dog's saliva destroys bacteria in a few seconds, and tests on saliva shortly after a dog has eaten raw meat containing salmonella shows almost none of the bacteria. If your dog licked your baby on the face after eating, it would be safe. Don't let your baby eat the dog's poop or splash around in raw chicken juice and all will be well  I feed my dogs outside for the most part so stuff on the floor isn't an issue.

I don't use antibacterial soap. I rinse my cutting board off with water and I have absentmindedly licked my fingers with raw meat juice on them. When I think about it I put a little Comet on the cutting board. I've cut myself several times while cutting raw chicken - make it bleed alot and rinse off, no antibacterial ointment. I don't believe in it as I think it reduces our immunity over time. 

Feeding raw is simple. I think the pre-mades are expensive and most have alot of stuff in them I don't think is necessary but I know alot of people feed them because they are afraid they can't balance a dog's nutrition without some help. Over time, you realize it's not rocket science - you feed your child a balanced diet without advanced degrees in nutrition or having to give him a boxfull of processed nuggets with all his vitamins in it. A dog is much simpler than a human to feed.


----------



## lauren43 (Feb 6, 2011)

Tess, my parents dog, is on Horizon pulsar...I say give it time. Don't get me wrong my dog eats raw and does pretty darn well on it. My parents however could never wrap their head around raw, so Tess eats kibble. She had chronic ear infections and this is te first time she's free of them! Horizon really is a great company with great products. And hey if in 2-3 months you see no difference you can still try raw!


----------



## naturalfeddogs (Jan 6, 2011)

julzzzz said:


> Thanks for the links and the advice. I really need the support.
> 
> I think I'm nervous about not knowing what to get, what has the right nutrients, what he shouldn't eat right away, etc. I think pre-made might help me with the transition. I give him marrow bones, knee caps, and other delightful things now....and I'll continue to get them for him.
> 
> ...


As long as you go protein by protein,starting with the gentlest easy to digest chicken, and transition through to the red meats you will be fine. You will get all the correct nutrients through feeding variety over time. 

Most vets don't go for raw, because they have very little in the way of nutritional training. What they do know comes from large kibble companies like Hills Science Diet. If you are going to go raw, it's best to just take the plunge and do it. His digestive system is designed for it, but after being used to kibble it will take some time for it to be accustomed to raw. Thats why you take it slow, and let them adjust protein by protein. His digestive system is designed by nature for raw, not man made kibble. It's probably more confused now, than on raw.


----------



## Mandy (Aug 30, 2012)

I just wanted to add one other thing. When you switch to raw, do not be surprised (and try not to worry) if the first couple of days he has loose stools or possibly even an upset tummy. When I first switched Logan to raw his stools weren't an issue, but on his 2nd day of getting chicken his tummy was gurgling and he didn't want to eat. He just seemed very off. I hated seeing him like that (especially after watching him get sick on kibble so many times) so I paniced and said that's it, we're going back to kibble, but will try a different brand. The last brand of kibble I tried on him was Earthborn. He ate one meal and within 5 minutes he threw it all up. I figured the following day I'd give it another shot and sure enough with 5 minutes he threw it all up again. Clearly, kibble was not the answer for him. That's when I decided enough was enough for real and we switched back to raw after I fasted him for 24 hours. This time, it was literally smooth sailing. I can't remember the last time he got sick. He's just thriving on it now! A completely different dog! 

Looking back now, I'm sure my bouncing him around from one brand of kibble to another, to raw, back to a new brand of kibble, surely did his tummy no favors. Had I stuck with the switch to raw the first time I'm certain it would've been smoother. His system was still adjusting to this new food source. I should've given it more time before going back to kibble, but hindsight is 20/20. I know now not to do it like that again. In fact, for any future dogs we'll be skipping kibble all together and jumping right into raw.


----------



## julzzzz (Mar 3, 2013)

Hey there,

Alright, we are getting ready to take the plunge! Lauren43, I agree that Horizons is decent but I just can't get the thought of kibble vs. raw out of my head.....planning to make the switch sometime this week because hubby is off for a few days and we can monitor his eating and stools together. As you can tell, I was able to convince hubby - yay!!


Here's my plan:

- Going to my favourite pet store to drill the store manager regarding what to do (he knows I'm coming and I really trust him). Planning on buying some patties (likely chicken and/or turkey to start) and may get some bones as well. I have to see what products they have in stock.
- Might need to get a bigger bowl so that he can slop the food around in there. Plan to move his feeding area to a tiled space that we don't really use, just off the kitchen. I think I might put a towel down as well.
- I've read that you can fast the dog for 24 hours and then start raw afterwards, agreed?
- Might designate a utensil or two for mixing up the patty and for handling any of his meat. And I'll designate a few "dog cleaning only" sponges.

Is there anything else I need?

I'm really worried that he won't eat it right away. I know I can put it away for the next meal, but I don't want his "sniff and walk away" act to get me stressed. I'm also a bit concerned about dealing with the "stool transition". Anyone able to ease my worries?!

julzzzz

p.s. might post in the "pre-made" thread as well, but thought to type here in case other newbies want to share the info


----------



## DaneMama (Jun 27, 2008)

julzzzz said:


> 1) I'm planning on starting off purchasing from a raw food farm. Although expensive, I imagine the patties are the most convenient and I'd prefer to make this as easy as possible. How can I tell if each patty has all the essential nutrients for him?


Patties are really just going to either:

Bridge the transition from kibble to full raw without issue

OR

Create more issues between kibble and full whole raw meaty bones. 

The way I've always seen it is that pre made raw patties are "raw kibble". Typically the results you want to see (allergy relief) don't happen with the pre made raw foods. Sometimes they do well but not always. Just remember that they could set you a few steps back. 



> 2) What if I prepare the raw food and he doesn't eat it right away.......How long do I keep it in the bowl for?


Until he eats it. Usually dogs wont go long enough for it to go bad. Sometimes they're super stubborn and wont eat for more than five days but that is rare in my experience. Typically I'd say picky dogs go 2-4 days refusing new foods. Anything longer than about five days I would toss it (or give it to someone with chickens or veteran raw dogs). 

I would suggest giving your pup no more than 5 minutes to eat. Don't talk to him, don't coax him, don't repeated show him the food and encourage him.....just set it down, walk away. Come back five minutes later....if it's still there pick it up without emotion, without word and put it in the fridge until next meal time. NO snacks or meals between. Don't make feeding times a big deal as the more emotion and effort you put into it the harder it'll be on both you and him.



> 3) How long can you keep your raw food in the freezer? Ideally we'd stock up by keeping the food in our basement freezer.


We have gotten freezer burned stuff from 10 years ago and it was perfectly fine. Sure it has a little freezer burn but its still fresh and fine on the inside. Ideally you don't want to keep things too long in the freezer but this is really not something to be concerned about. As once you're a seasoned raw feeder you will begin to hoard meat....it just happens as a right of passage as a raw feeder LOL



> 4) I have a soon-to-be crawling baby (he is 6 months now). What advice can you offer regarding how to keep the baby safe......my dog does enjoy sneaking in a lick here and there. We are trying to train him not too and he is pretty good....I guess baby's feet are too tasty!


The reality is dogs have a plethora of bacteria in their mouths naturally....even when eating kibble. I mean...they lick their own behinds all the time. I recommend feeding dogs outside if at all possible so that messes are outside, cuz it's just easier to clean up a no mess. Then restrict dog licking for at least an hour or so after meals. Ideally, feed the dog after the baby has been put down to bed for the night. 



> 5) Are certain supplements a good idea (maybe fish oil)?


This completely depends on the sources of your meat. If you feed primarily factory farmed meats you should at the very least supplement an omega 3 (O3) fatty acid like fish oil. If you use a fish oil for an O3 supplement make sure its named, as well as filtered of all/most heavy metals. The more natural and farm/grass raised meats you feed the less you need supplements. 



> 6) I've read that it's best to start the transition with chicken and slowly move to other proteins. Does this also mean it's best to hold off on introducing things like liver, organs, turkey necks, etc.?


Precisely. You add things into rotation slowly and gradually. That way you know how sensitive your dog is to certain things. If you go in full force giving the full spectrum, how do you know what caused digestive upset? Or if it was one specific thing or just too much too fast? Take things slow, with the mentality of balance over time. 



> 7) I plan on having a separate bowl for the raw food, a separate sponge to clean it.....now I just need to figure out other "parts of the routine". Any suggestions? Where do I feed him so that he doesn't bring the food off the plate onto our floor?


Feeding out of bowls is kinda obsolete for raw meaty bones, as they wont really eat out a bowl. If you feed a premade raw, you'll need a bowl. 

As I suggested before, feed OUTSIDE and most of your personal hygiene issues will take care of themselves...IE no clean up :thumb: 



> Any other guidance would be great (websites, articles, etc.). I've been online quite a bit and did many searches on YouTube and on Facebook. We have recently transitioned him to a low-glycemic kibble right now because I want him off the vet's kibble. While searching for this low glycemic kibble many of the pet store workers said going raw is the best thing to do. I don't know whether to be patient with this new kibble or to just start him raw as soon as I clear it with the vet (she's great and I definitely want to run it by her). I think my major issue is patience, I know it takes many weeks for the dog's diet to translate into better health or signs of change......I'm worried I won't be able to tough it out. Especially if there's a flare up while he is on raw - I might doubt my decision. Plus there's a good chance my hubby will want to stick it out with the kibble just to see if it helps our little guy. I read that kibble is one of the worst foods to give and now I can't get that out of my head.


One thing I will say is that don't expect your vet to be on the same page for raw feeding. Most vets don't have much training and school in regards to nutrition. Their nutrition courses are pretty much funded and taught by industry backed scientists. Just prepare yourself for opposition from your vet. 




julzzzz said:


> Hey there,
> 
> Alright, we are getting ready to take the plunge! Lauren43, I agree that Horizons is decent but I just can't get the thought of kibble vs. raw out of my head.....planning to make the switch sometime this week because hubby is off for a few days and we can monitor his eating and stools together. As you can tell, I was able to convince hubby - yay!!


Yay! The hard part is over.....spousal proposal can be the biggest hurdle sometimes :biggrin: 


Here's my plan:



> - Going to my favourite pet store to drill the store manager regarding what to do (he knows I'm coming and I really trust him). Planning on buying some patties (likely chicken and/or turkey to start) and may get some bones as well. I have to see what products they have in stock.
> - Might need to get a bigger bowl so that he can slop the food around in there. Plan to move his feeding area to a tiled space that we don't really use, just off the kitchen. I think I might put a towel down as well.
> - I've read that you can fast the dog for 24 hours and then start raw afterwards, agreed?
> - Might designate a utensil or two for mixing up the patty and for handling any of his meat. And I'll designate a few "dog cleaning only" sponges.


I'd say this sounds great if you plan on moving forward with trying a premade raw. 



> I'm really worried that he won't eat it right away. I know I can put it away for the next meal, but I don't want his "sniff and walk away" act to get me stressed. I'm also a bit concerned about dealing with the "stool transition". Anyone able to ease my worries?!


You're in the same shoes that all the raw feeders have been in. Trust us when we say don't worry. My beloved babies didn't freakin' eat for 5 days.....and I was a wreck...they were fine LOL. Don't worry, things will happen eventually. What I suggested above by setting the food down, walking away, without emotion, etc, etc. really works wonders. Take all emotion out. You dog is making the CONSCIOUS decision to NOT EAT....that is his issue not yours. Think of it as a toddler not wanting his/her green beans for dinner. Can I have ice cream now mama??? Heck no! Eat the food I give you!


----------



## sozzle (May 18, 2011)

I bet your dogs don't sniff the raw food and walk away, I mean how could they? my dog ate his first raw meal with gusto right from the start as he did kibble but then I didn't get him until he was 5 so don't know what sort of food he was eating before then. He is a pig though and will eat any type of meat given the chance.
I am looking forward to hearing how you get on.


----------



## DaneMama (Jun 27, 2008)

sozzle said:


> I bet your dogs don't sniff the raw food and walk away, I mean how could they? my dog ate his first raw meal with gusto right from the start as he did kibble but then I didn't get him until he was 5 so don't know what sort of food he was eating before then. He is a pig though and will eat any type of meat given the chance.
> I am looking forward to hearing how you get on.


A lot of dogs sniff their first raw meal and walk away. Is it because they have no idea what to do with it? Possibly. Maybe they just don't like the smell. The beauty is the human decides what the dog eats, not the other way around which is why the power of "tough love" works so well.


----------



## FBarnes (Feb 17, 2013)

Yep it's hard for me to imagine a dog not eating ANYTHING I throw down there from Alpo to dead rat to prime rib but apparently those dogs are out there!


----------



## meggels (May 30, 2010)

I'm lucky, Murph inhaled his first raw meal (both premade and whole cuts of meat), but he really is a hoover vaccum and will eat *anything*.

Abbie, who I thought would be confused, was very much a natural when I dipped my toes in the raw waters. Her biggest problem was the fact that I wanted her to eat on the tile kitchen floor, and she does not like to walk on that floor, only carpet lol.


----------



## julzzzz (Mar 3, 2013)

I have to be honest.....I've reread these posts a few times! You are all soooooo helpful. I'm thankful I found this site. Our little guy had his last bowl of kibble tonight. I am ready - ready to get control of his feeding and we are starting with chicken.

I truly feel that feeding raw makes the most sense. I keep thinking if dogs were in the zoo, what would they eat? 

I have a feeling our pup has been reading my mind....he's been looking at me all week as if to say "what are you waiting for lady, I'm ready, where's my real food?!!"

I just have to get over the hurdles or flare ups.

Thanks again for reading. I definitely need your help!
julzzzz


----------



## FBarnes (Feb 17, 2013)

Glad to hear it. You won't be sorry


----------



## DaneMama (Jun 27, 2008)

julzzzz said:


> I have to be honest.....I've reread these posts a few times! You are all soooooo helpful. I'm thankful I found this site. Our little guy had his last bowl of kibble tonight. I am ready - ready to get control of his feeding and we are starting with chicken.
> 
> I truly feel that feeding raw makes the most sense. I keep thinking if dogs were in the zoo, what would they eat?
> 
> ...


Keep us posted!


----------



## InkedMarie (Sep 9, 2011)

We adopted a senior dog lost two months ago. I'm pretty sure her prior homes didn't feed her very good quality food. She came to me with no teeth so she eats The Honest Kitchen. In the morning, she gets a Bravo Balance patty on top. She ate that with no problem. I wondered what she'd do with a raw egg. Ate it right down. Earlier this week, I decided to see if she would eat it all with tripe. Silly Marie, she is a sheltie, of course she ate it!


----------



## Dude and Bucks Mamma (May 14, 2011)

Every dog is different but my hound has the long hound ears and does not suffer from the yeasty ears you hear so much about. They still have to be cleaned more often than the upright ears of my other two dogs but other hound owners I have talked to are constantly cleaning their ears. 



julzzzz said:


> 1) I'm planning on starting off purchasing from a raw food farm. Although expensive, I imagine the patties are the most convenient and I'd prefer to make this as easy as possible. How can I tell if each patty has all the essential nutrients for him?
> 
> I, personally, believe it is easier to feed whole cuts of meat rather than try to guess about the patties. By feeding my dogs meat that I can identify myself I know EXACTLY what each is getting. I know how much meat, how much bone, and how much organ each dog is consuming each day.
> 
> ...


None of my dogs will keep their food in the bowls. Some of the meals are just plain too big for a bowl anyhow. All of mine eat outside so we just toss the food outside and send the dog out after it. That way, cleanup is just hosing off the concrete every couple of days. Some people who feed inside have taught their dogs to eat on a towel and not move from it until they are finished eating.


----------



## julzzzz (Mar 3, 2013)

Awwwwwwwww.....he did it! I gave him his last kibble bowl yesterday evening (only a cup...that's all that was left in the bag and I wasn't about to open a new one), skipped a meal this morning, and put out a chicken neck and a chicken patty. I know most of you don't do the patty, but until I do more research it'll help me with the transition. And I do feel very comfortable with the farm they are made at and the store where I purchased them. Anyhow, it took him about 5 minutes to finish his meal. Never, and I repeat, _never_ has he finished a bowl of food in under 45 minutes let alone 5.

So now I'm curious to know about the bones (neck, chicken quarters, etc.).....I don't think it's very practical for us to feed him outside. I fed him on a little tiled area that is just around the corner from our kitchen. He brought the neck onto the floor, which I was ready for because I've read through some threads on here. Should I be worried that he walked on the same tile after? Do I have to wipe down his paws? Wouldn't the same thing happen if I trained him to eat the bones on a towel? 

The patty was left in the bowl so I just washed it after and that was that.

Let's see how tomorrow goes!
jul


----------



## FBarnes (Feb 17, 2013)

I'm not much of a germophobe but I never wash my dog's feet.

Glad he did so well!


----------



## Dude and Bucks Mamma (May 14, 2011)

julzzzz said:


> So now I'm curious to know about the bones (neck, chicken quarters, etc.).....I don't think it's very practical for us to feed him outside. I fed him on a little tiled area that is just around the corner from our kitchen. He brought the neck onto the floor, which I was ready for because I've read through some threads on here. Should I be worried that he walked on the same tile after? Do I have to wipe down his paws? Wouldn't the same thing happen if I trained him to eat the bones on a towel?


We feed outside mostly because we have large, hardy dogs and a mostly carpeted house. Our hairless dog will likely eat indoors during the colder days of the colder months after we move. I like feeding outside simply because we can just hose it off. On the occasion they do eat inside we just use vinegar in a spray bottle to clean it. As far as their feet go, we only clean their feet when they eat a meal that sticks to it. For the most part they don't use their feet. We keep a container of baby wipes by the back door for the occasions they do. As far as walking on the tile he ate on, don't worry about it. We don't. They walk in worse when they are outside.


----------



## Herzo (Feb 5, 2011)

Dude and Bucks Mamma said:


> We feed outside mostly because we have large, hardy dogs and a mostly carpeted house. Our hairless dog will likely eat indoors during the colder days of the colder months after we move. I like feeding outside simply because we can just hose it off. On the occasion they do eat inside we just use vinegar in a spray bottle to clean it. As far as their feet go, we only clean their feet when they eat a meal that sticks to it. For the most part they don't use their feet. We keep a container of baby wipes by the back door for the occasions they do. As far as walking on the tile he ate on, don't worry about it. We don't. They walk in worse when they are outside.


Lucy........ you have some splanen to do!!!! I want to know about that Roo on the bottom of your posts.

To the op I do sometimes put down a towel because my basset will almost always pull the bone in out of her bowl and put it on the floor. But I'm not much of a germophobe either. If I am feeding something big I do try and pick a nice day and they eat outside. Boneless meals go down so fast they never hit the floor. And my two bigger dogs even the bone in doesn't hit the floor, so I guess it will depend on how your dog eats. I wouldn't worry about his feet.


----------



## julzzzz (Mar 3, 2013)

Good point re: dogs walk in nastier stuff outside!

I put down his morning meal and he took a little bit and then left it. I picked it up after 15 minutes and put it in the fridge. Oh brother.....this is going to break me. He knows this is my weakness. It's going to take many days for him to learn this "it's down so eat it NOW" method. This is one reason kibble was so easy......

Blah!
J


----------



## FBarnes (Feb 17, 2013)

julzzzz said:


> Good point re: dogs walk in nastier stuff outside!
> 
> I put down his morning meal and he took a little bit and then left it. I picked it up after 15 minutes and put it in the fridge. Oh brother.....this is going to break me. He knows this is my weakness. It's going to take many days for him to learn this "it's down so eat it NOW" method. This is one reason kibble was so easy......
> 
> ...


It is easy, julzzz. They are the best manipulators in the world. It's probably why there are so many fat dogs out there. Just think of it as you knowing what's best - I've never heard of a dog starving yet from beginning a raw diet!

And I'm sure he knows the method - he's just arguing with you about it


----------



## julzzzz (Mar 3, 2013)

Oh dear....I'm not sure I'm cut out for this! And he is just eating the commercial patties from a farm right now! 

I just don't know how I feel about him eating raw meat and then walking around the house rubbing his face on the couch, or licking us or a toy. And my hubby has been hearing an earful because this is all I can think about. I need to give hubby a break from my back and forth brain.

Vet was supportive. She suggested trying lamb because sometimes chicken can be a meat that dogs are allergic to. She said to see any results related to diet it's important to stick it out.... 8-12 weeks. I just don't know what to do....I'm so conflicted...conflicted because I know kibble is processed and lacks a lot of nutrients, but I don't know if I can deal with raw meat on a daily basis. And we are boarding him mid-April, the boarder is fine with storing the meat but I....uh.....I just don't know how to get comfortable with this.

Help. I'm stressing over this and it's going to eat me up.
j


----------



## InkedMarie (Sep 9, 2011)

julzzzz said:


> Oh dear....I'm not sure I'm cut out for this! And he is just eating the commercial patties from a farm right now!
> 
> I just don't know how I feel about him eating raw meat and then walking around the house rubbing his face on the couch, or licking us or a toy. And my hubby has been hearing an earful because this is all I can think about. I need to give hubby a break from my back and forth brain.
> 
> ...


I must be weird because I don't even think about them rubbing their faces on anything.


----------



## naturalfeddogs (Jan 6, 2011)

julzzzz said:


> Oh dear....I'm not sure I'm cut out for this! And he is just eating the commercial patties from a farm right now!
> 
> I just don't know how I feel about him eating raw meat and then walking around the house rubbing his face on the couch, or licking us or a toy. And my hubby has been hearing an earful because this is all I can think about. I need to give hubby a break from my back and forth brain.
> 
> ...


Don't start with lamb. Very rich and fatty, and will cause digestive upset in the beginning. DO start with bone in chicken. Cooked and raw are two TOTALLY different things. A dog who is allergic to chicken in kibble is because it's cooked, and when fed chicken raw most will have no problems. And yes, you will have to stick it out for a time considering you are going from a processed man made kibble to a natural, species appropriate food. It's good that your vet is supportive, but remember they have very little training and knowledge in nutrition.

Don't stress and over think it all. It's easy to make it very difficult, and it's really not. Just treat the raw meat just as you would preparing for yourself. It's no different just because it's for your dog.


----------



## julzzzz (Mar 3, 2013)

I did it! I did it! I made it over the hump! Honestly I'm not a germaphobe, but it took me a few days to get used to the whole idea. I went to my favourite pet store and had a great chat with the owner - she's a walking encyclopedia! So we are sticking with raw. I'm still more comfortable with the patties - who knows when that'll change. Probably when I get my next VISA bill ;-). I have a few chicken necks and other raw bones to treat him with once in awhile. Those I give outside.....which makes me feel much better.

I still consider this a "detox" phase. It'll take awhile for his system to get fully adjusted right?

I think it's actually made me a stronger "pack leader". Before I put his kibble down and left it because I just couldn't be bothered, but now whatever isn't eaten after 15 minutes goes in the fridge or garbage. I have way more control over his food and I swear that's changed how he thinks of me. 

So I'm not going to think about it. I'm just going to feed my dog and avoid over-analyzing it! I admit, I do give his little beard a scrub with a paper towel but if that's what I need to do then so be it.

Prey model-don't feel comfortable making that jump just yet. I'm going to give these patties a few more weeks (except lamb, I bought a few other proteins yesterday) and we'll see where this takes us. His been off kibble since March 13 and both my husband and I noticed a softer coat already - is that possible....so soon? Also, his poops are smaller, odourless, slightly lighter in colour and a different texture. That's supposed to happen right?

I guess all I do is monitor his weight and his poops??

Thanks for reading,
j


----------



## Elliehanna (Jan 16, 2012)

good for you!

I would watch his teeth since your on patties and no bones to crunch. I would try to slowly do 1 one in chicken meal a week (because I know your not ready to jump over fully and all) to help his teeth.

But overall yea you just monitor weight and poop. He will PROBABLY still have a crappy coat at some point when he is going through detox. My boy's coat got soft and everything, then he blew it and looked like crap for a good few months. But, every dog is different.


----------



## P4P (Jun 25, 2012)

I do get concerned about some of the posts regarding raw feeding.
Yes, a dog's digestive system is capable of digesting raw meat but that doesn't means it can get the full range of nutrition from just meat and veg to cover all it's requirements.
Have you ever seen a wild hyena with a glossy coat and no dandruff or bald patches? Don't they sit there on the savana scratching their itches?

Kibble is just the name for the extruded food - it has no real bearing on the nutritional content.
One Kibble can be good quality and another (most) really bad - it depends what ingredients are used.

Whole eggs should not generally be fed to dogs unless they are fully cooked (The Eggs!) because the egg white contains Avidin and a Trypsin inhibitor which alter the metabolism of specific nutrients. This can lead to scaly skin rash, elevated cholesterol and nerve transmission defects.

Our Portuguese Water Dogs (Cleo is the FIRST Female Portuguese Grand Champion) and Old English Sheepdogs have been brought up on Burns food with frequent variations using "Natural Dog Food" and "Applaws" - all top quality ingredients. There are a couple of others which we would consider to be on a par with these - however not many!
We have had many clients who's dogs have had the itchy, scratchy, sores, apparent intolerance and dull coat issues - when they have been informed about the ingredients in the food they were feeding (many times they had been feeding a food recommended by their vet or breeder!) and set on the path to real nutrition the problems vanished.

If you do want to go down the raw food path please note that it is very difficult to ensure that the food does contain everything required in terms of vitamins & minerals.
You could also try adding a mixer that provides the ingredients that are most likely to be missing. A "Complete" kibble should contain everything necessary!

When changing a diet - especially from a kibble to a raw diet - you should do it gradually. Mix old & new for a week or so otherwise the poor dog's digestive system will have a hard job coping. Remember that much of the digestion process relies on gut bacteria and a change in the food may throw up a problem due to a deficiency in the bacteria needed for the new food.

My own personal feeling regarding the use of kibble containg "hydrolyzed animal protein" is that, because the term means that the hydrogen bonds between the various amino acids have been broken during the manufacturing process (carcases and off-cuts of ANY animal {or possibly even insects} disolved in hydrochloric acid - ie pre-digested), the dog's own digestive system does not have to work so hard - possibly leading to a reduction in the capability to later effectively digest raw food.

If you suspect a food intolerance then my suggestion would be to use a "single meat protein" food (ie Chicken based first, then Fish, Lamb and then maybe Duck or Pork) - if none of those help then try a non-rice food (ie one based on potato) just in case the proteins in the rice are the cause.
Whatever you do avoid all foods containing wheat and even those that contain maize (corn) fairly high up the ingredents list.


----------



## MollyWoppy (Mar 19, 2010)

You are doing great julzzz, when you are ready to try PMR we will be here to help. So glad you are seeing benefits already. I would do as Ellie suggests though, and try adding a bone in meal now and then for the teeth aspect. That is one of the benefits of PMR that I love the most. So you know, I've been feeding PMR exclusively for 5 years now, our vet check ups and yearly blood and urinalysis work are perfect.


----------



## Liz (Sep 27, 2010)

We feed PMR and raise our dogs as naturally as possible with little or no chemical interventions. We have raised three litters directly raw. I currently have two of my own dogs who have never eaten kibble, vegetable, fruits or grains of any kind and are in great condition. All the pups from the litters are in raw feeding homes with the exception of two pups who get top of the line grain free due to health and mobility issues with their owner. PMR is very easy actually to balance and my dogs love their eggs and the shells. They are collies and shelties and gleam with health, bloodwork has always come out perfect. As far as teeth, pork neck bones really do a good job of cleaning teeth of they are vertically cut and it can be a longish lasting chew if your dog is not voracious about chewing. I give it to the little ones for a while and then re-freeze. The collies eat the whole thing as part of a meal.


----------



## julzzzz (Mar 3, 2013)

Yes, I give him bones to gnaw on.....have ever since he was a pup. I get bone marrow, chicken necks, knuckles, etc. from the pet store and the vet has always commented on his teeth. Being a 2 year old dog...I feel confident that we gave his teeth a good start. He gnaws on them a few times a week.

Beef was a success - he was dying for me to put the bowl down! He has never been so satisfied eating food before - so far so good.

j


----------



## MollyWoppy (Mar 19, 2010)

Hey, one thing, just be very careful of the marrow and knuckle bones. Untold dogs have broken teeth on those type of bones as they are very hard. They have to support large animals so they are very dense and hard chewing dogs can easily break a tooth. Stick to the non weight bearing bones of larger animals. 
Mollie split a tooth once, so I'm very wary of what bones I give her.


----------



## InkedMarie (Sep 9, 2011)

Hey Liz, for your two pups who get kibble: what are they eating? Asking because I don't know if I can keep Boone on raw for to meals...


----------



## Dude and Bucks Mamma (May 14, 2011)

InkedMarie said:


> I must be weird because I don't even think about them rubbing their faces on anything.


Buck rubs his face on EVERYTHING. He's just a face rubber. When he's happy, he rubs his face on things. WHen we're in the car he rubs his face on the backs of the seats. After he eats he rubs his face on the floor and the couch. It's never something that's bothered me. OP, I think you're over thinking the hygiene here. Your dog licks his own rear end on a regular basis then goes and licks your family and his toys. I'd take raw meat over dog butt any day! 

Chicken is a meat a lot of dogs are allergic to, yes, but raw chicken and cooked chicken can effect a dog differently. Dogs who are allergic to cooked chicken are not always allergic to raw chicken. Lamb is definitely not something I would start with. If you really don't want to start with chicken I would start with turkey. You really are over thinking everything. Go look through the raw pictures thread. That thread is what gave me that final push to do it. It's one thing to hear about it and quite another to be able to actually see pictures and videos of dogs eating raw.

I see I missed the last page. I am glad to see that you have decided to forge on ahead anyways. Don't over think it and this will all be second nature to you in no time. When we talk about food we sometimes forget that there are people out there who feed kibble. Feeding raw has become so second nature and normal to us. Good luck


----------



## Dude and Bucks Mamma (May 14, 2011)

P4P said:


> I do get concerned about some of the posts regarding raw feeding.
> Yes, a dog's digestive system is capable of digesting raw meat but that doesn't means it can get the full range of nutrition from just meat and veg to cover all it's requirements.
> Have you ever seen a wild hyena with a glossy coat and no dandruff or bald patches? Don't they sit there on the savana scratching their itches?
> 
> ...


We switched cold turkey, feed eggs, etc and I have VERY healthy dogs. We know how to make sure our dogs are getting all of the vitamins and nutrients they need.


----------



## Liz (Sep 27, 2010)

Inked Marie, I called the lady who has my two sheltie boys and she switched them to Stella and Chewy's freeze dried foods and does neck bones for teeth. She convinced her family to feed them this since they wouldn't do PMR as she really wanted. She is in a wheelchair and the boys are her service dogs so she is limited to what her family agrees to. So no more kibble. Sorry. She also is going to put Answer Straight in their Stella and Chewy's rotation. 

Sorry I can't help but I am glad now all my pups are eating good foods.

Have you thought of grinding food yourself? It would be cheaper.


----------



## julzzzz (Mar 3, 2013)

Is there ever any need to fast a dog or at least just skip a meal? Does that help give their digestive systems a rest and do their systems need a rest?

I'll be careful with the dense bones. They aren't for eating, more just for chewing, and he is always monitored. Thanks.


Thanks,
j


----------



## ceramand (Jan 4, 2013)

*My dog suffered from yeast infrection too!*



julzzzz said:


> Hello,
> 
> I'm posting to get some guidance about switching our dog to raw. I have been researching online and I have an appointment with our vet in a few weeks. I have a feeling it'll be the best food for him, but I'm nervous about making the switch.
> 
> ...


My big boy, Jack, has had chronic yeast infections since I adopted him 8 years ago. Last fall he had another severe bout and was licking his groin that turned a dark color. I switched vets as I wasn't getting satisfaction from my former vet. My new vet took one look and claimed that he was on the wrong meds and the ear cleaner had alcohol in it which would be an irritant. She also surmised that his infection was never fully cleared up. Within a month or so, he was fully cured and his fur grew back. He's been clear ever since. I feed him a combination of Nutrisca chicken kibble with Weruga canned (all chicken and pork), along with Aunt Lucy's Pureformance chicken dehydrated and frozen green beans. I created this food combo because Jack is a fussy eater. Jack hasn't had an another outbreak although I neurotically check his ears every week. No scratching licking, chewing his toes, or stinky ears!! What a relief for both of us.


----------



## naturalfeddogs (Jan 6, 2011)

As long as it's not a small breed dog, sometimes fasting for a meal does help give anything else in the digestives time to get out.


----------



## julzzzz (Mar 3, 2013)

So I'm getting a little curious.....I've read the "how to get started on PMR" link and looked at many other sites/books.....

What do I ask for when I go to the butcher or the grocery store to buy meat for my dog? I know this is a juvenile question, but I don't know how else to put it.

If this were my shopping list for "raw dog food" what would you add?

1) Chicken quarter
2) Mackerel 
3)......?
4)......?


I've read that you can feed pork, rabbit, beef, chicken, venison, organs (liver, kidney, etc) and heart is muscle meat......but what _specific parts_ of those animals do I ask for....a pork belly? some beef ribs? I guess I'm asking for some PMR _vocabulary_ help.

Thanks,
j


----------



## naturalfeddogs (Jan 6, 2011)

Right now, in the beginning, ask for chicken backs or quarters. None of the red meats just yet. BUT, later on you can ask for pretty much anything. Pork could be roasts, ribs, hearts and any organs. Some also feed pork necks. 

Beef ribs are really dense compared to other ribs like pork or lamb, so unless you have a large super strong chewer I probably wouldn't feed those. But any other part of beef is fine. Briskets, hearts, roasts etc....


----------



## Liz (Sep 27, 2010)

Remember you are starting with chicken - chicken backs and chicken quarters are the best to start with. In a pinch you can do whole chicken and cut it up into appropriate sized pieces with kitchen shears. 

Here is a basic list though - 
Chicken - whole, leg, quarters, thighs, necks, hearts, gizzards, feet, breast, backs, frames. 
Cornish game hen - whole or half
Turkey - whole (butcher at home) necks, thighs, legs (drums), hearts, gizzards, frames, back
Pork - pork neck, butt roast, picnic, shoulder, ribs, soft bones, pig's feet, heart, kidney, head, tongue(pretty much any part)
Beef - ribs, roasts, neck, heart, lung, tongue, ox tail, - anything you can get cheap enough
Lamb - neck, feet, hocks, shoulder, ribs, heart, lung, head, roasts, tongue, 
Fish - sardines, mackarel, etc (oily fish)

Hope that helps.


----------



## julzzzz (Mar 3, 2013)

Thanks, I really appreciate your responses. And Liz, that list is great. I took a picture of it on my iPhone to keep handy in case I'm near a butcher.

The fur baby is doing well so far. Had a bit of runny poo this morning, but I'm not too concerned. It might be because the beef is too rich and he's had too much. We also live in a forested area with tons of puddles.....spring is a tricky time for dogs! Especially a water dog who loves getting muddy. I have some pumpkin on hand just in case his belly goes out of whack.

I'm not sure if this is because of his new diet, but I have a small proud "moment" to share.....usually when we are at the in-laws he runs in and goes directly to their dog's food bowl to steal some nibbles. Last night, he walked up to the kibble in the bowl, sniffed it and walked away. That is VERY unlike him - he is full of beans and they usually have to put their dog's bowl away when we visit. I was proud...in a "that's right, don't eat that processed kibble" kind of way.

J


----------

