# Some help on deciding please.



## Aftcomet (Aug 1, 2009)

I have a Standard Poodle, 4 years old. He has flaky skin (dandruff).

I have a few questions. I know some of you will hate me but I have been feeding my dog Pedigree for the last four years. I wasn't very educated and my Vet had recommended it but I have finally seen the light. Here is what I'd like to know:

1. With a higher quality food, will my dog probably get over the flaky skin? I'm assuming that it's an allergic reaction.

2. I've narrowed it down to two foods that can fit my budget. *Eukanuba Premium Performance Sporting Dog Food* and *Blue Buffalo Adult Formula Dog Foods*

I've heard that Eukanuba has been getting a bad rap these days so I don't know. Here are the ingredients, can you tell which one is better judging by them:

*Blue Bufallo:*

_Deboned Lamb, Lamb Meal, Whole Ground Barley, Whole Ground Brown Rice, Oatmeal, Rye, Fish Meal, Whole Potatoes, Tomato Pomace (source of Lycopene), Sunflower Oil (source of Omega 6 Fatty Acids), Natural Flavor, Whole Carrots, Whole Sweet Potatoes, Blueberries, Cranberries, Flaxseed, Barley Grass, Dried Parsley, Alfalfa Meal, Kelp Meal, Taurine, L-Carnitine, L-Lysine, Glucosamine, Yucca Schidigera Extract, Turmeric, Garlic, Herring Oil (source of Omega 3 Fatty Acids), Fructooligosaccharides, Monooligosaccharides, Dried Chicory Root, Black Malted Barley, Rosemary Oil, Vitamin A Supplement, Vitamin C, Vitamin E Supplement, Vitamin D3 Supplement, Beta Carotene, Calcium Ascorbate (source of Vitamin C), Vitamin B12 Supplement, Niacin (Vitamin B3), Calcium Pantothenate (Vitamin B5), Riboflavin (Vitamin B2), Pyridoxine Hydrochloride (Vitamin B6), Thiamine Hydrochloride (Vitamin B1), Folic Acid, Biotin, Choline Chloride, Calcium Phosphate, Zinc Amino Acid Complex (source of Chelated Zinc), Iron Amino Acid Complex (source of Chelated Iron), Copper Amino Acid Complex (source of Chelated Copper), Manganese Amino Acid Complex (source of Chelated Manganese), Potassium Amino Acid Complex (source of Chelated Potassium), Cobalt Proteinate (source of Chelated Cobalt), Potassium Chloride, Sodium Selenite, Salt, Lactobacillus acidophilus, Bacillus subtilis, Bifidobacterium thermophilum, Bifidobacterium longum, Enterococcus faecium_

_Guaranteed Analysis: 
Crude protein (min) 22%, crude fat (min) 12%, crude fiber (max) 4.5%, moisture (max) 10%, calcium (min) 1.3%, phosphorus (min) 1%, l-carnitine* (min) 100 mg/kg, omega 3 fatty acids* (min) 0.4%, omega 6 fatty acids* (min) 1.8%, beta carotene* (min) 5 mg/kg, glucosamine* (max) 400 mg/kg

Calorie Content (ME):
Kcal/Kg = 3,397.5 (calculated)
Kcal/Cup = 504.9 (as fed)_

*Eukanuba Premium Performance Sporting Dog Food:*
_
Chicken, Chicken By-Product Meal (natural source of Chondroitin Sulfate and Glucosamine), Corn Meal, Brewers Rice, Fish Meal, Ground Whole Grain Sorghum, Chicken Fat (preserved with mixed Tocopherols, a source of Vitamin E), Natural Chicken Flavor, Dried Beet Pulp (sugar removed), Dried Egg Product, Brewers Dried Yeast, Fish Oil (preserved with mixed Tocopherols, a source of Vitamin E), Potassium Chloride, Salt, Vitamins [Vitamin E Supplement, Ascorbic Acid, Beta-Carotene, Vitamin A Acetate, Calcium Pantothenate, Biotin, Vitamin B12 Supplement, Thiamine Mononitrate (source of Vitamin B1), Niacin, Riboflavin Supplement (source of Vitamin B2), Inositol, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride (source of Vitamin B6), Vitamin D3 Supplement, Folic Acid], Sodium Hexametaphosphate, Fructooligosaccharides, Choline Chloride, Minerals [Ferrous Sulfate, Zinc Oxide, Manganese Sulfate, Copper Sulfate, Manganous Oxide, Potassium Iodide, Cobalt Carbonate], Calcium Carbonate, Dried Chicken Cartilage (natural source of Chondroitin Sulfate and Glucosamine), DL-Methionine, L-Carnitine, Rosemary Extract._

_Guaranteed Analysis:

* Crude Protein (min) 30.0%
* Crude Fat (min) 20.0%
* Crude Fiber (max) 4.0%
* Moisture (max) 10.0%
* Vitamin E (min) 140 IU/kg
* L-Carnitine (min) 40 mg/kg*
* Docosahexaenoic Acid (DHA) (min) 0.1%*
* Omega-6 Fatty Acids (min) 2.9%*
* Omega-3 Fatty Acids (min) 0.50 %*
* Glucosamine (min) 375 mg/kg*
* Chondroitin Sulfate (min) 35 mg/kg*

*Not recognized as an essential nutrient by the AAFCO Dog Food Nutrient Profiles.

Calories:
431 kcal/cup

Caloric Distribution:
Protein 27.08%; Fat 44.47%; Carbohydrate 28.44%_

My dog weighs 45 pounds. How much should I generally feed him depending on how much food I give him? I currently feed him 1.5 cups in the morning and in the evening. Thank you for your help. 

EDIT: I just noticed that Blue Buffalo contains "Lifesource Bits". What are those?


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## Unosmom (May 3, 2009)

It does not necessarily mean allergies, a lot of dogs will have dull flaky coat on grocery store foods because they lack meat and therefore essential fatty acids that are present in the meat. 

I wouldnt feed yuckanuba, its glorified pedigree really.

Blue Buffalo is by far a much better option, there are other foods you can try that cost less then Blue. I reccomend a grain free kibble like Taste of the Wild, since its meat based and a lot of dogs have grain intolerance. I checked the price online, and its around $40 for 30 lb bag, but it depends on the store. Generally feed stores sell it for less.
Heres their dealer locator link:

Taste of the Wild : Dealer Locator


In addition, I reccomend supplementing your dogs food with fish oil, you can get liquid salmon oil or if you dog doesent mind, regular human fish oil you get at the store. Start out with couple capsules( generally 1000 mg), then increase if needed.


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## Unosmom (May 3, 2009)

According to their site: LifeSource Bits contain a precise blend of vitamins, minerals and antioxidants selected by holistic veterinarians and animal nutritionists. These include ingredients that have been shown to help strengthen your dog’s immune system, support their specific life stage requirements and protect them from the negative impact of environmental toxins. And, unlike other brands that add vitamins, minerals and antioxidants, LifeSource Bits are “cold–formed” to preserve their full potency


With food ammount, feed what is reccomended on the bag and decrese/increase if needed.


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## M&M'sMom (Jul 19, 2009)

I vote for blue buffalo. eukanuba has a lot of the same ingredients as grocery store chow.


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## Aftcomet (Aug 1, 2009)

Thanks for all the help guys. I'll go with Blue Buffalo. my dog's stool should be a lot smaller now correct? Currently it's bigger than him haha. 

But I find it odd that Blue Buffalo, Eukanuba, Pedigree, and many, many others have all had recalls.


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## CorgiPaws (Mar 31, 2009)

Aftcomet said:


> But I find it odd that Blue Buffalo, Eukanuba, Pedigree, and many, many others have all had recalls.


The only way to avoid pet food recalls is to go raw, which is a decision that is entirely up to you. Considering you're posting in the kibble and canned section, I'm assuming that's what you want to stick with.

As for the two you are debating on, DEFINATELY Blue over the other junk. (I personally wouldn't ever buy anything with Cornmeal listed on the ingredience, and Eukanuba has it third on the list! yuck!) If budget is a big issue then Canidae is usually pretty affordable, at least everywhere I've lived. It's not absolute top of the line, but it's worlds better than the Pedigree. I had one of my dogs on it before going raw, and he did fantastic.


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## Doc (Jan 17, 2009)

Don't do the pukanuba. Try adding Salmon oil for dry skin.


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## claybuster (Dec 18, 2008)

Aftcomet said:


> ...
> 1. With a higher quality food, will my dog probably get over the flaky skin? I'm assuming that it's an allergic reaction.
> I've heard that Eukanuba has been getting a bad rap these days so I don't know. Here are the ingredients, can you tell which one is better judging by them:...




They are both terrible IMO but one is clearly better than other and that would be the Eukanuba Premium Performance Sporting Dog Food. My reasoning is the Euk is a 30/20 feed and the BB only 22/12. Euk has a #2 ingredient of chicken by-product meal which helps this feed a lot. Euk is terrible at 4% fiber yet BB is worse at 4.5%. Taking a look at some of those ingredients, the lesser of two evils is the EUK:

EUK
Corn Meal, Brewers Rice, Ground Whole Grain Sorghum, Dried Beet Pulp (sugar removed), Brewers Dried Yeast, Fructooligosaccharides,Rosemary Extract.


BB
Whole Ground Barley, Whole Ground Brown Rice, Oatmeal, Rye, Whole Potatoes, Tomato Pomace, Whole Carrots, Whole Sweet Potatoes, Blueberries, Cranberries, Flaxseed, Barley Grass, Dried Parsley, Alfalfa Meal, Kelp Meal, Yucca Schidigera Extract, Turmeric, Garlic, Fructooligosaccharides, Monooligosaccharides, Dried Chicory Root, Black Malted Barley, Rosemary Oil

Looking for things you would rather not see in a carnivore diet, one seems to cater more heavy to omnivore nutrition. And it comes as no surprise that when running down two feeds, most people don't know what to look for that would make one feed better than the other.


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## EnglishBullTerriers (Sep 10, 2008)

Doc said:


> Don't do the pukanuba. Try adding Salmon oil for dry skin.


Go with Blue Buffalo and add the oil like Doc said!!  
I think that they might even have a salmon kibble if you can find it! 
The Taste of the Wild is a really good food as well. If you are able to find that I would almost recomend it more because it is higher in the meat protien. 
Good Luck!


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## Aftcomet (Aug 1, 2009)

Thanks for all the help.

EDIT: We bought the food. They didn't have Blue Buffalo or Eukanuba. A guy at the store recommended "Nutrience Supreme". He said he fed it to his dog and it works wonderfully.

Chicken meal, ground corn, brewers rice, chicken fat (preserved with mixed tocopherols and citric acid), dried beet pulp, dried whole egg, lecithin, hydrolysed chicken, chicken flavor, yeast culture, salt, potassium chloride, flaxseed meal, calcium propionate (preservative), yeast extract, citric acid, fumaric acid, malic acid, lactic acid, marigold extract, mint leaves, parsley, dehydrated green tea, glucosamine sulfate (0.04%), chondroitin sulfate (0.01%), dried kelp, dried cayenne, dried carob, dried rosemary, dried fenugreek, dried ginger, dried turmeric, dried fennel, rosemary extract, yucca schidigera extract, ascorbic acid (vitamin C), iron proteinate, ferrous sulfate, zinc methionine complex, zinc oxide, sodium selenite, vitamin E supplement, vitamin B12 supplement, copper proteinate, copper sulfate, manganese proteinate, manganous oxide, folic acid, niacin, calcium pantothenate, vitamin A acetate, riboflavin, pyridoxine hydrochloride, thiamine mononitrate, biotin, menadione sodium bisulfite complex (source of vitamin K activity), calcium iodate, vitamin D3 supplement

TYPICAL ANALYSIS:
Protein 26.3 %
Fat 16.2 %
Fibre 2.7 %
Moisture 9.6 %
Ash 8.3 %
Copper (as copper sulphate) 25 mg/kg
Iron (as ferrous sulphate) 415 mg/kg
Zinc (as zinc oxide) 250 mg/kg
Selenium (as sodium selenite) 0.3 mg/kg
Manganese (as manganous oxide) 60 mg/kg
Omega 6 fatty acids 2.4 %
Omega 3 fatty acids 0.32 %


VITAMIN STATEMENT:
Vitamin A 20,150 I.U./kg
Vitamin D3 1,260 I.U./kg
Vitamin E 115 I.U./kg
Vitamin C 52 mg/kg


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## Aftcomet (Aug 1, 2009)

Oh boy. I think I should have went with Blue Buffalo Wilderness.

*Sigh*

Deboned Chicken, Chicken Meal, Potato Starch, Turkey Meal, Whitefish Meal, Salmon Meal, Tomato Pomace (natural source of Lycopene), Chicken Fat (preserved with Natural Mixed Tocopherols), Oatmeal, Natural Chicken Flavor, Whole Carrots, Whole Sweet Potatoes, Blueberries, Cranberries, Flaxseed (natural source of Omega 6 Fatty Acids), Barley Grass, Dried Parsley, Alfalfa Meal, Kelp Meal, Taurine, L-Carnitine, L-Lysine, Glucosamine Hydrochloride, Yucca Shidigera Extract, Green Tea Extract, Turmeric, Herring Oil (natural source of Omega 3 Fatty Acids), Fructooligosaccharides, Monooligosaccharides, Dried Chicory Root, Black Malted Barley, Oil of Rosemary, Beta Carotene, Vitamin A Supplement, Vitamin C, Vitamin E Supplement, Vitamin D3 Supplement, Calcium Ascorbate (source of Vitamin C), Vitamin B12 Supplement, Niacin (Vitamin B3), Calcium Pantothenate (Vitamin B5), Riboflavin (Vitamin B2), Pyridoxine Hydrochloride (Vitamin B6), Thiamine Hydrochloride (Vitamin B1), Folic Acid, Biotin, Choline Chloride, Calcium Chloride, Zinc Amino Acid Complex (source of Chelated Zinc), Iron Amino Acid Complex (source of Chelated Iron), Copper Amino Acid Complex (source of Chelated Copper), Manganese Amino Acid Complex (source of Chelated Manganese), Potassium Amino Acid Complex (source of Chelated Potassium), Cobalt Proteinate (source of Chelated Cobalt), Potassium Chloride, Calcium Carbonate, Sodium Selenite, Salt, Lactobacillus acidophilus, Bacillus subtilis, Bifidobacterium thermophilum, Bifidobacterium longum, Enterococcus faecium.

Guaranteed Analysis:

* Crude Protein (min) 42.0%
* Crude Fat (min) 16.0%
* Crude Fiber (max) 3.0%
* Moisture (max) 10.0%
* Calcium (min) 1.0%
* Phosphorus (min) 0.9%
* L-Carnitine* (min) 100 mg/kg
* Omega 3 Fatty Acids* (min) 0.25%
* Omega 6 Fatty Acids* (min) 3.50%
* Beta-Carotene* (min) 5.0 mg/kg
* Glucosamine* (max) 400 mg/kg

* Not recognized as an essential nutrient by AAFCO Dog Food Nutrient Profiles.

Caloric Data (ME)
kcal/kg = 3,745 (calculated); kcal/cup = 586 calories (as fed)

Daily Feeding Guide (Weight/Cups** per Day):

* Up to 15 lbs: 1/2 to 1 cup
* 16 to 25 lbs: 1 to 1-1/2 cups
* 26 to 40 lbs: 1-1/2 to 2-1/2 cups
* 41 to 60 lbs: 2-1/2 to 3-1/2 cups
* 61 to 75 lbs: 3-1/2 to 4-1/2 cups
* 75 to 100 lbs: 4-1/2 to 6 cups
* Over 100 lbs: 6 to 7-1/2 cups

** Use a standard 8 oz. measuring cup.


AND it's cheaper....

*cries*


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## Aftcomet (Aug 1, 2009)

*Computer Double Posted* 

Sorry.


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## Unosmom (May 3, 2009)

Could you exchange it?

That first food look ok.. the main concern being vit K. Also corn is a common allergen and I'm pretty sure citric acid can cause bloat. 

Heres an article which explains vit k issue better :
The Dog Food Project - Menadione (Vitamin K3)


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## wags (Jan 31, 2009)

You could try a grainless food. their are alot of premium brands for allegries also. Can you find like evo or california natural or orijen anywhere?


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## Aftcomet (Aug 1, 2009)

Turns out Petsmart have a no questions asked return policy. Awesome. Now should I get orijen or BB Wilderness. I've heard many bad things about BB.


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## BabyHusky (Jul 21, 2008)

Definitely Orijen.


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## Aftcomet (Aug 1, 2009)

BabyHusky said:


> Definitely Orijen.


Mhmmm.

Check this out: 

Fresh boneless chicken, chicken meal, turkey meal, russet potato, fresh pacific salmon (a natural source of DHA and EPA), herring meal, sweet potato, peas, fresh lake whitefish, fresh northern walleye, chicken fat (naturally preserved with vitamin E and citric acid), chicken liver, salmon meal, fresh turkey, fresh whole eggs, fresh deboned herring, sun-cured alfalfa, salmon oil, chicory root, dehydrated organic kelp, pumpkin, carrots, spinach, turnip greens, apples, cranberries, saskatoon berries, black currants, choline chloride, psyllium, licorice root, angelica root, fenugreek, marigold flowers, sweet fennel, peppermint leaf, chamomile flowers, dandelion, summer savory, rosemary, sea salt, vitamin supplements (vitamin A, vitamin D3, vitamin E, niacin, vitamin C, thiamine mononitrate, riboflavin, vitamin B5, vitamin B6, folic acid, biotin, vitamin B12), mineral supplements (zinc proteinate, iron proteinate, manganese proteinate, copper proteinate, selenium), dried Lactobacillus acidophilus, dried Enterococcus faecium fermentation product.


Crude Protein (min.)	40.0%
Crude Fat (min.)	16.0%
Crude Fiber (max.)	2.5%
Moisture (max.)	10.0%
Calcium (min.)	1.5%
Calcium (max.)	1.7%
Phosphorus (min.)	1.2%
Phosphorus (max.)	1.4%
Omega-6 (min.)	3.0%
Omega-3 (min.)
DHA
EPA	1.1%
0.6%
0.3%
Carbohydrate (max.)	20.0%
Glucosamine (min.)	1200 mg/kg
Chondroitin (min.)	900 mg/kg
Microorganisms (min.)	120M cfu/kg
BOTANICAL INCLUSIONS
Chicory root	700 mg/kg
Licorice root	500 mg/kg
Angelica root	350 mg/kg
Fenugreek	350 mg/kg
Marigold flowers	350 mg/kg
Sweet Fennel	350 mg/kg
Peppermint leaf	300 mg/kg
Chamomile flowers	300 mg/kg
Dandelion root	150 mg/kg
Summer savory	150 mg/kg
VITAMINS
Vitamin A	15 kIU/kg
Vitamin D3	2000 kIU/kg
Vitamin E	200 IU/kg
Vitamin B12	0.22 mg/kg
Thiamine	50 mg/kg
Riboflavin	40 mg/kg
Niacin	200 mg/kg
Pan. Acid	32 mg/kg
Pyridoxine	26 mg/kg
Biotin	0.83 mg/kg
Folic Acid	3 mg/kg
Choline	2700 mg/kg
Ascorbic Acid	55 mg/kg
Beta carotene	0.40 mg/kg
AMINO ACIDS
Taurine	0.3 mg/kg
T. Lysine	2.7%
T. Threonine	1.65%
T. Methionine	0.87%
T. Isoleucine	1.60%
T. Leucine	2.9%
T. Valine	1.9%
T. Arginine	2.9%
T. Phen.	1.6%
T. Histidine	0.85%
T. Cystine	0.5%
MINERALS
Sodium	0.4%
Chloride	0.6%
Potassium	0.65%
Magnesium	0.10%
Sulphur	0.4%
Manganese	27 mg/kg
Cobalt	0.47 mg/kg
Iodine	3.5 mg/kg
Selenium	0.35 mg/kg
Iron	300 mg/kg
Zinc	204 mg/kg
Copper	21 mg/kg



NO CORN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :biggrin::biggrin::biggrin:


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## Unosmom (May 3, 2009)

Both are great food, but if I had to chose, I'd go with Orijen, its higher protein though, so you'll be feeding less.


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## Doc (Jan 17, 2009)

You can't go wrong with Orijen.


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## wags (Jan 31, 2009)

ORIJEN hands down!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Best food out there!:smile:


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## claybuster (Dec 18, 2008)

Unosmom said:


> Could you exchange it?
> 
> That first food look ok.. the main concern being vit K. Also corn is a common allergen and I'm pretty sure citric acid can cause bloat.
> 
> ...


WOW, one could write a book here with all the misnomers.

Menadione is not a problem in dog food, never was never will be. The problem is listening to internet hype and not doing enough homework. Bloat is no mystery either, neither is the cause. And a new scapegoat ingredient emerges every now and then fostered along by the industry agenda to protect its agenda, profitable omnivore nutrition.

There is no where near enough menadione in a ration of dog food to ever cause a problem. Some of you here may be old enough to remember when diet soft drinks first hit the market in the early 1970's. One calorie TAB I believe was the first, and the next thing know artificial sweeteners caused cancer in lab rats. If you could read past one sentence one discovered a human would need to drink 800 cans of soda a day to reach the same levels given to lab rats. Look at menadione in dog food under the same scenario. It would be impossible for your dog to ingest enough menadion to ever cause harm. What is more harmful is the more profitable version of vitamin K in dog food, KELP, otherwise known as SEAWEED.Kelp Look at the picture in the link and give it a thought...why on earth woud you ever want to feed your dog that? Well the dog food companies want you to think that is a great ingredient, weeds off the ocean floor as a natural source of Vit K as opposed to miniscule amounts of menadione.

Citric Acid does not cause bloat, however that was promoted as next probable cause years back by the industry and industry connected veterinarians. Dangerous yet profitable ingredients cause bloat, and has done so in every animal tested. You see no dogs with bloat in the wild. Raw feed dogs don't bloat. Dogs feed properly structured meat and fat based diets don't bloat. The only dogs that suffer from bloat are those fed industry diets
similar to the ones discussed in this thread. Those ingredients to avoid if you want to avoid the likelihood of bloat are: beet pulp, soybeans, tomato pomace, alfalfa, sorghum (milo), potatoes, oats, peas, beans, garlic, and yucca and those are the common ones in dogs foods today.


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## rannmiller (Jun 27, 2008)

That's strange, I've read that menadione sodium bisulfate is considered toxic and was banned for use in human foods yet is still allowed in dog foods. I'd recommend staying away from it


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## Unosmom (May 3, 2009)

I would rather feed my dog kelp then take chances with synthetic vit K.


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## BabyHusky (Jul 21, 2008)

ditto. =) i think we talked about that in a previous thread somewhere didn't we? maybe not...


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## claybuster (Dec 18, 2008)

rannmiller said:


> That's strange, I've read that menadione sodium bisulfate is considered toxic and was banned for use in human foods yet is still allowed in dog foods. I'd recommend staying away from it


Drinking too much water can be toxic. Yes, menadione was banned because people you can't read labels were overdosing themselves with supplements. 

Yes, if your dog can eat 100 bags of dog food per day, you should stay away from menadione, otherwise it is no concern and much safer than the poisons and toxins found in plant matter such as kelp. You couldn't pay me enough money to feed my dog kelp.


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## claybuster (Dec 18, 2008)

Kelp (you whiz kids may not know this) contains bromines. Bromines are used as a preservative in flour. It is also used in rodenticide. It is also can be used as a derivative in gasoline. Kelp is a seaweed. It is leafy green and contains toxins. It is by no means a stellar ingredient in dog food and can very well be a dangerous ingredient when feed even at small dosages over time. It is clearly a species inappropriate ingredient found in dog food today and just another example how even the posh names in dog foods follow the more profitable path of omnivore nutrition.


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## Unosmom (May 3, 2009)

Menadione (e.g. menadione sodium bisulfate, menadione sodium bisulfite or menadione dimethylpyrimidinol bisulfite)

-has never been researched or specifically approved for long term use, such as in pet food 
-has been banned from use in food and supplements for human use in many European countries due to serious side effects, including permanent damage and deaths 
-FDA has banned synthetic vitamin K from over-the-counter supplements because of its high toxicity 
-vitamins K1 and K2 are metabolized through the lymphatic system, utilizing pancreatic enzymes and bile acids and regulated by the liver. Vitamin K3 is absorbed directly and bypasses the natural pathways and regulators. 

Bottom line is Vit. K 3, has not been around long enough in pet foods to know long term effects, even if by some evil plot to confuse people, all those countries are wrong for banning it, why risk it if there are safer alternatives?
Why not use vit K , 1 or 2? 

Youre not offering any significant proof to back up your claims regarding kelp or any other vegetables for that matter. 
If anything , just like Vit. K, its used it very small quantities, not enough to make an negative impact on dogs health.


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## claybuster (Dec 18, 2008)

Unosmom said:


> Youre not offering any significant proof to back up your claims regarding kelp or any other vegetables for that matter.




Primary chemical constituents of this plant include mucilage, algin, mannitol, beta-carotene, zeaxanthin, iodine, *bromine*, potassium, volatile oils, and many other minerals.

Kelp




> Bromine was discovered independently by two chemists Antoine Balard[4] and Carl Jacob Löwig[5] in 1825 and 1826.[6]
> 
> Balard found bromide salts in the ash of sea weed from the salt marshes of Montpellier in 1826. The sea weed was used to produce iodine, but also contained bromine.


*Bromine*


> Flame retardant
> 
> Tetrabromobisphenol ABrominated flame retardants represent a commodity of growing importance. If the material burns the flame retardants produce hydrobromic acid which interferes in the radical chain reaction of the oxidation reaction of the fire.





> Gasoline additive
> Ethylene bromide was an additive in gasolines containing lead anti-engine knocking agents. It scavenges lead by forming volatile lead bromide, which is exhausted from the engine. This application accounted for 77% of the bromine uses in 1966 in the US. This application has declined since the 1970s due to environmental regulations.[24] Ethylene bromide is also used as a fumigant, but again this application is declining





> Pesticide
> 
> Methyl bromide (Bromomethane)Methyl bromide was widely used as pesticide to fumigate soil. The Montreal Protocol on Substances that Deplete the Ozone scheduled the phase out for the ozone depleting chemical until 2005. In 1991, an estimated 35,000 metric tonnes of the chemical were used to control nematodes, fungi, weeds and other soil-borne diseases.


Bromine - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

If you desire seaweed and vegetables in your dogs diet that’s wonderful, but for my dog, I'm staying clear of that stuff.


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## Unosmom (May 3, 2009)

Youre twisting the truth, while bromine is found in trace ammounts in kelp, the chemical makeup of it is altered in the lab to achieve desired results( to be used as pesticide, etc), hence the variations of the names, Ethylene vs. Potasium Bromide. 

Any vitamin or mineral can become toxic in large quantities. I dont see any evidence of kelp toxicity in pet foods in those sources, since its used in such miniscule ammounts, just enough to provide trace minerals, primarily iodine which supports healthy thyroid function. 

I've been drinking a blend of various seaweeds myself (kelp, chlorella, spirulina, etc) for 5 years now with excellent results and will continue on doing so. So according to you, I'd be dead by now.


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## Aftcomet (Aug 1, 2009)

The only thing I don't like about Orijen is the Tomato Pomace.


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## claybuster (Dec 18, 2008)

Unosmom said:


> I've been drinking a blend of various seaweeds myself (kelp, chlorella, spirulina, etc) for 5 years now with excellent results and will continue on doing so. So according to you, I'd be dead by now.


Since when did you become a dog? I see, so if it's good for you it's good for must be good for your dog...great logic. That is the probably the biggest mistake people make when it comes to canine nutrition.
And all that yucky stuff like chicken by-product you wouldn't eat obviously then must be bad for your dog.

I myself will eat some Sushi on occasion, but I will never feed my dog seaweed....NEVER.


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## claybuster (Dec 18, 2008)

> Vitamin K deficiency occurred in two to 4 weeks in chickens on a simplified corn-soy ration, or on the modified vitamin K-low Animal Nutrition Research Council reference broiler ration. A water-soluble menadione sodium bisulfite complex containing 63% of menadione sodium bisulfite, U.S.P., *proved three times as effective* as menadione as a sole source of vitamin K in the modified A.N.R.C. reference ration. Menadione at 0.18 mg per pound of feed, the National Research Council recommended level for vitamin K1, failed to give normal prothrombin levels in chicks up to 4 weeks of age on this ration.


Up to 3X's as effective...interesting. Like I said prior, you folks can keep the seaweed, and I'll stick with the menadione sodium bisulfite.

Vitamin K Activity of Menadione Sodium Bisulfite in Chickens: Two Figures -- Frost et al. 59 (2): 181 -- Journal of Nutrition


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## claybuster (Dec 18, 2008)

Unosmom said:


> Youre twisting the truth, while bromine is found in trace ammounts in kelp....


Interesting note about Bromine, I had purchased a box of Abady Dog Treats
and it mentioned on that box, they DO NOT use flour preserved with Bromine!
It should not be in dog food or their treats, no matter how miniscule the amounts!


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## CorgiPaws (Mar 31, 2009)

claybuster said:


> Interesting note about Bromine, I had purchased a box of Abady Dog Treats
> and it mentioned on that box, they DO NOT use flour preserved with Bromine!
> It should not be in dog food or their treats, no matter how miniscule the amounts!


This statement is based off of the opinion that Abady is a quality product, which is highly debatable to begin with.


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## claybuster (Dec 18, 2008)

CorgiPaws said:


> This statement is based off of the opinion that Abady is a quality product, which is highly debatable to begin with.




Says your opinion, that it's debatable, for I see no debate, Abady *is* a quality product. If you care to debate that, maybe I would debate with you in another thread, but not in this thread. Can you muster up something more than...it's yucky? I just wanted to mention what I noticed on the box of treats and the Bromine note.


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## claybuster (Dec 18, 2008)

Yum Yum, here boy...come and get it...


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## Unosmom (May 3, 2009)

You still havent provided a single source where is states that kelp is toxic to dogs? I'm waiting. 

and um.. little note.. that article is talking about chickens, not dogs. 
Wait.. unless chickens are dogs.


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## CorgiPaws (Mar 31, 2009)

claybuster said:


> Says your opinion, that it's debatable, for I see no debate, Abady *is* a quality product. If you care to debate that, maybe I would debate with you in another thread, but not in this thread. Can you muster up something more than...it's yucky? I just wanted to mention what I noticed on the box of treats and the Bromine note.


A bag of Beneful says "perfect balance of wholesome ingredients, quality nutrition, and superb taste."

My point being, just because your brand of dog food says something, doesn't mean it holds any value whatsoever. 
Sure, that box of treats doesn't useBromine. That's great. 
Doesn't mean that one that has trace amounts is going to do anything. 
You yourself argue that minimal amounts of harmful ingredients are fine in other threads, then controdict yourself over and over in the garlic thread, and it's making your posts rather meaningless at this point..


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## Unosmom (May 3, 2009)

And I have yet to find bromine preserved flour in anything I feed. Sounds like Abady is trying to highlight an obvious feature in decent quality feeds and put themselves on the pedestal as a superior food.


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## claybuster (Dec 18, 2008)

CorgiPaws said:


> A bag of Beneful says "perfect balance of wholesome ingredients, quality nutrition, and superb taste."
> 
> My point being, just because your brand of dog food says something, doesn't mean it holds any value whatsoever.
> Sure, that box of treats doesn't useBromine. That's great.
> ...



I would argue even miniscule amounts of Bromine IMO are unacceptable. Same thing with the garlic, not even miniscule amounts. These ingredients I see as harmful. I do not however see miniscule amouts of the menadione sodium bisulfite as ever being a problem.


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## CorgiPaws (Mar 31, 2009)

claybuster said:


> I would argue even miniscule amounts of Bromine IMO are unacceptable. Same thing with the garlic, not even miniscule amounts. These ingredients I see as harmful. I do not however see miniscule amouts of the menadione sodium bisulfite as ever being a problem.


That's funny because the articles you posted to support your opinion on that were all stating garlic is only harmful in small amounts, and some even supported the use of garlic in small amounts.... 
but that's another thread, so I'll leave it at that.


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## claybuster (Dec 18, 2008)

Unosmom said:


> You still havent provided a single source where is states that kelp is toxic to dogs? I'm waiting.
> 
> and um.. little note.. that article is talking about chickens, not dogs.
> Wait.. unless chickens are dogs.



Kelp is rich in Iodine. If you need proof just google it...



> The present results suggest that commercial diets with a high iodine content may cause hypothyroidism and changes in bone metabolism.


pubmed


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## claybuster (Dec 18, 2008)

CorgiPaws said:


> That's funny because the articles you posted to support your opinion on that were all stating garlic is only harmful in small amounts, and some even supported the use of garlic in small amounts....
> but that's another thread, so I'll leave it at that.


I think you meant to say only harmful in _large amounts_.


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## CorgiPaws (Mar 31, 2009)

claybuster said:


> I think you meant to say only harmful in _large amounts_.


You're absolutely right. That's what I ment. Thanks for the correction. Appreciated.


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## Unosmom (May 3, 2009)

I can google all I want, but youre repeating what is fed to you without disproving me. Iodine is an essential trace element required by all species, including certain plants. Kelp is a natural source of this element and is suitable in small ammounts to the proper function of thyroid. 

If you are to argue that dogs shouldnt eat plant matter, why does your food contain rice? last time I checked, I didnt see dogs scavenging rice paddies either. Its really not different then feeding some of the plants that are present in todays kibble. While I dont think that things like carrots or berries offer much benefit due to their processed and extruded form, certain plants can be used as alternate sources for trace minerals.


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## claybuster (Dec 18, 2008)

Unosmom said:


> I can google all I want, but youre repeating what is fed to you without disproving me. Iodine is an essential trace element required by all species, including certain plants. Kelp is a natural source of this element and is suitable in small ammounts to the proper function of thyroid.
> 
> If you are to argue that dogs shouldnt eat plant matter, why does your food contain rice? last time I checked, I didnt see dogs scavenging rice paddies either. Its really not different then feeding some of the plants that are present in todays kibble. While I dont think that things like carrots or berries offer much benefit due to their processed and extruded form, certain plants can be used as alternate sources for trace minerals.


I'll settle for just White Rice as opposed to the omnivore buffet delivering sub-lethal doses of poisons over time.

BTW, where is the proof, the sources, that indicate specifically that miniscule amounts of menadione sodium bisulfite is dangerous for dogs? We read banned as human supplements because people want to pop too many pills in there mouth like candy, but where is the sources indicating dangerous for dogs at the miniscule levels? hmmmm, other than internet hype opinion?


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## Unosmom (May 3, 2009)

Scroll down to number 4:

http://www.emea.europa.eu/pdfs/vet/mrls/044798en.pdf

Toxicity, Vitamin: eMedicine Emergency Medicine


> Vitamin K
> This particular toxicity is typically associated with formula-fed infants or those receiving synthetic vitamin K-3 (menadione) injections. Because of its toxicity, menadione is no longer used for treatment of vitamin K deficiency.
> Effects may include jaundice in newborns, hemolytic anemia, and hyperbilirubinemia.
> Toxicity also blocks the effects of oral anticoagulants.


Bottom line is, the only reason that companies get away with it is because its an inexpensive source of this vitamin. I'm not going to give my pets something that could potentially harm them in a long run. Why is it that big companies like Menu foods and Proctor and Gamble use this along with managerie or other crap that ends up in pet food including ethoxyquin ( also banned for human consumption) , corn syrop, sugar, etc. 
And yet none of the premium food companies do? coincidence? I dont think so.


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