# Best GRAIN-INCLUSIVE food?



## meggels

I know many people feel that grain free is the best way to go, but what are some of your opinions on some of the best foods out there that DO include grains? What makes you believe that these foods are some of the best?


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## jdatwood

Just out of curiosity, WHY would you want to include grains in your carnivores diet?


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## RCTRIPLEFRESH5

id say canidae is a good grained food,although its still grained...

if you want a grain free food for price,taste of the wild is only slightly more than most of the top grained foods out there so id say go for that. the best grained food is lliek the best disease...its still the ebst of the worst...and id rather have the worst of the best(TOTW) anywday.


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## sal101011

Unfortunately commercial pet food makers have included grain in the majority of dry kibbles out there. personally, i do not feed my dogs a kibble that has grain, but if i were to make a decision as to which kibble that includes grain would i feed my pooch it would be the Fromm Gold series, Fromm Adult GOLD I like the company mainly because it does not share plants with other companies, it is a family owned business and operated for over 70 years (i think) and the ingredients are decent, in addition, the grain ingredients arent till 4th or 5th on the list. Again, my pooches get grain-free food, but if i had to switch them over it would most probably be Fromm.


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## meggels

jdatwood said:


> Just out of curiosity, WHY would you want to include grains in your carnivores diet?


I never said I wanted to....

I thought the general consensus here (or among some members) was that some dogs just DON'T do well on a grain free food? Hence, my question on what are the best kibbles that are grain inclusive...


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## jdatwood

Adding grain to your dogs diet is the worst thing you could do aside from feeding them sawdust.


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## meggels

jdatwood said:


> Adding grain to your dogs diet is the worst thing you could do aside from feeding them sawdust.


Well, that's a bit dramatic, isn't it? :tongue:

I dunno, I think there's a lot of great foods, and for the most part, I'm behind the grain free "movement" but I've seen dozens upon dozens of dogs thrive and be healthy and beautiful on a grain inclusive diet. I feed my dogs the grain free Acana, so it's not like I am feeding a grain inclusive food.

I would love to hear some serious and on topic answers though...


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## kevin bradley

I like Jon's opinions and think he's pretty on with his advice...

but I'd agree that it the same as "eating sawdust" is a bit extreme. 


to answer your question...Acana non grain free, Innova, Cal Natural, Castor Pollux Organix(believe its grain inclusive)....would be my recommendations. 

I'm not sure where I stand on the "Dogs should only have meat" debate. I've read both sides and without having my own University Study, I'm not sure who the hell to believe. That being said, I do feed grain free. 

I think one mistake people make(at least I did in the beginning) is that we equate "grain free" w/ no carbs. Hardly the case. Not even close.


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## Brodster

My dog did very well on the Fromm 4 Star varieties, and like others have said, I like the company's philosophies and practices. 

I'm really wavering in the grain-free issue, too, and thought about going back to these foods as I took TOTW out of the line-up. I chose Acana grain-free based a lot on opinions here.


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## whiteleo

I'm thinking we will soon see the grain inclusive line of Orijen.


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## ziggy29

whiteleo said:


> I'm thinking we will soon see the grain inclusive line of Orijen.


Not sure why they would do this -- seems like it could cause some confusion and cheapen the perception of their product line. Still, as long as it doesn't change or cheapen their grain-free formulas, I suppose there's no harm in it.


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## chowder

Rocky did very well on Innova Large Breed Puppy and Chelsy did well on Innova Senior Plus which is the only one that had extra B vitamins for her neurological problems. 

I also think Chicken Soup is not a bad grain inclusive food for the price if you are looking in that range. I know people hate Diamond products, but it really isn't a bad quality food considering ingredients only and if you want a lower price item. 

Chicken, turkey, chicken meal, ocean fish meal, cracked pearled barley, whole grain brown rice, oatmeal, millet, white rice, chicken fat (preserved with mixed tocopherols), potatoes, egg product, tomato pomace, duck, salmon, flaxseed, natural chicken flavor, potassium chloride, salt, choline chloride, dried chicory root, kelp, carrots, peas, apples, tomatoes, blueberries, spinach, dried skim milk, cranberry powder, rosemary extract, parsley flake, yucca schidigera extract,


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## whiteleo

Orijen already has a grain inclusive line in Canada and apparantly else where but not in the U.S, My specialty store that only carried Natura and Champion products is keeping his customers abreast of this info as he has totally gotten rid of all Natura products, he hasn't found a co. that met his needs as far as his standards and that is why he is really trying to get the grain inclusive line.


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## kevin bradley

2 aspects of the "DOGS ONLY NEED MEAT" debate that confuse the hell out of me....

1. "Dogs have no use for carbs. They provide nothing for them." This confuses me. I've seen Dogs get fat as hell on high carbs/high grain foods. They must be using something in that bag. 

2. "Dogs only eat meat in the wild." Maybe. I guess. I would say they probably eat more than just meat....but even if they do...who's to say they can't utilize carbs/grains in some way? Is it POSSIBLE? 


I'm not saying Meat isn't ideal for our Dogs. Mine are doing outstanding on grain free food(Acana currently). I just struggle with the extreme stance that grains/carbs provide NOTHING for dogs. They must provide SOMETHING for them. 

I read alot of stuff(in many topics)...and I've read some outstanding writing on the "Dogs only need meat" stance. But I've also seen writing that comes from top VET schools around the country claim that Dogs can and do utilize carbs and grains. Hell, even the "Corn is horrible" debate is controversial. At worst, many say that corn is pretty harmless for Dogs...admittedly not GOOD for them and shouldn't be the #1 ingredient but nowhere near the Demon that some us make it out to be.

Again, ALL that being said....I err on the Grain Free side...no doubt. I just have some questions/doubts in my head.


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## ziggy29

kevin bradley said:


> I read alot of stuff(in many topics)...and I've read some outstanding writing on the "Dogs only need meat" stance. But I've also seen writing that comes from top VET schools around the country claim that Dogs can and do utilize carbs and grains. Hell, even the "Corn is horrible" debate is controversial. At worst, many say that corn is pretty harmless for Dogs...admittedly not GOOD for them and shouldn't be the #1 ingredient but nowhere near the Demon that some us make it out to be.
> 
> Again, ALL that being said....I err on the Grain Free side...no doubt. I just have some questions/doubts in my head.


Corn (like wheat) is fairly "empty" for dogs and causes allergies in quite a few dogs. (I think it's become pretty obvious that our dog has some skin allergies caused by these grains, as eliminating them has almost entirely eliminated the "hot spots" on her underside.) If there are no allergies in a dog, at most these are calories that don't provide much nutrition, but likely not harmful.

The problem with articles by vets extolling the virtues of grains for dogs is that too many vets have been compromised (dare I say "corrupted"?) by being in bed with Big Pet Food. (Why else would so many vets sell Hills and that sort of thing?) So I have to take their words with a grain (no pun intended) of salt. Or several. 

I would tend to agree with the "dogs only need meat" position, but I would also add that a mostly meat diet with some carbs from non-grain sources like fruits and vegetables isn't harmful. And for most people who can't or won't feed raw, since you can't get 100% meat in a convenient dry kibble, some carbs from plant matter are inevitable.


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## buddy97

whiteleo said:


> Orijen already has a grain inclusive line in Canada and apparantly else where but not in the U.S, My specialty store that only carried Natura and Champion products is keeping his customers abreast of this info as he has totally gotten rid of all Natura products, he hasn't found a co. that met his needs as far as his standards and that is why he is really trying to get the grain inclusive line.


i assume you are talking about the Acana grain inclusive line? champion makes nothing in any markets that is grain inclusive under the orijen name.


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## meggels

Brodster said:


> My dog did very well on the Fromm 4 Star varieties, and like others have said, I like the company's philosophies and practices.
> 
> I'm really wavering in the grain-free issue, too, and thought about going back to these foods as I took TOTW out of the line-up. I chose Acana grain-free based a lot on opinions here.


I really like Acana, but boy, is it a pain in the butt to get where I'm going to be living lol. That and the cost concerns me. I'm not the one paying for it, my mother is, and her dog (boxer) eats TOTW, so I feel kinda crappy giving my dogs a higher quality kibble on her dime.


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## ruckusluvr

I have fed 4-health dog food from tractor supply. it has grain, but no corn, wheat or soy. my dogs do okay on it. although it is VERY similar to the diamond naturals line of dog foods, my dogs did better on diamond naturals.

also chicken soup is a decent grain inclusive dog food. and blue buffalo.

i have not used chicken soup or blue buffalo, but they do look like something i would feed. (but not with blue buffalos price tag!) i feel like paying that price for blue buffalo that has a quite a bit a grains in it is a bit silly.

right now we are in a tight spot and that is the only reason my guys are on grain inclusive kibble.


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## dobesgalore

kevin bradley said:


> 2 aspects of the "DOGS ONLY NEED MEAT" debate that confuse the hell out of me....
> 
> 1. "Dogs have no use for carbs. They provide nothing for them." This confuses me. I've seen Dogs get fat as hell on high carbs/high grain foods. They must be using something in that bag.
> 
> 2. "Dogs only eat meat in the wild." Maybe. I guess. I would say they probably eat more than just meat....but even if they do...who's to say they can't utilize carbs/grains in some way? Is it POSSIBLE?
> 
> 
> I'm not saying Meat isn't ideal for our Dogs. Mine are doing outstanding on grain free food(Acana currently). I just struggle with the extreme stance that grains/carbs provide NOTHING for dogs. They must provide SOMETHING for them.
> 
> I read alot of stuff(in many topics)...and I've read some outstanding writing on the "Dogs only need meat" stance. But I've also seen writing that comes from top VET schools around the country claim that Dogs can and do utilize carbs and grains. Hell, even the "Corn is horrible" debate is controversial. At worst, many say that corn is pretty harmless for Dogs...admittedly not GOOD for them and shouldn't be the #1 ingredient but nowhere near the Demon that some us make it out to be.
> 
> Again, ALL that being said....I err on the Grain Free side...no doubt. I just have some questions/doubts in my head.


It is a big controversy, and I think some dogs do well on one type of diet where another may not at all. I say feed whatever works for your dog best. Trial and error and you eventualy learn what works, and what dosn't.


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## DaneMama

Grains are typically not as bioavailable to a dog as potato starch which is found in grain free foods. It's harder for dogs to break grains down and get little nutrition from them. They are commonly irritants to the bowel and cause allergies in dogs. They are a cheap filler for dog foods. Although potatoes are not much more nutritionally available to dogs, they are a "higher quality" ingredient.

A lot of dogs don't do well on grain free foods because they are simply getting to much to eat. Portion control on grain free foods needs to happen because people don't think about feeding their dog half of what they normally get on grain free. Intolerance to grain free foods is also a possibility but that can go for any food available and it's hard to pinpoint exactly what the dog is having a reaction to.

As far as the "dogs need meat and nothing but" arguement, it is true that dogs CAN survive on a carb ridden diet, but who's to say that is ideal? Dogs can also survive on a carb exclusive diet, but who's to say that's ideal either? It's all perception and opinion when it comes down this arguement. I just look at the visual proof that I see when feeding a grain exclusive diet compared to how my dogs were on a grain inclusive diet. That is proof enough for me.


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## Jacksons Mom

dobesgalore said:


> It is a big controversy, and I think some dogs do well on one type of diet where another may not at all. I say feed whatever works for your dog best. Trial and error and you eventualy learn what works, and what dosn't.


Totally agree.

Jackson does best on grainfree foods, with higher meat content. He's a pretty active little fella though. I don't think_ all_ grains are 'bad'. Wouldn't a dog/wolf in the wild that eats a dead animal, get _some_ of the grains that were inside of that animals stomach, or would they not? I really don't know.


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## DaneMama

There are wolf studies that show that they shake the stomach contents out of their prey animals and just don't eat the digestive tract of larger prey animals. But I'm sure on occasion they do ingest some form of crab source but even if so, the amount is so small and insignificant that it doesn't make much difference in the overall nutrition for the wolf.


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## JayJayisme

Jacksons Mom said:


> Wouldn't a dog/wolf in the wild that eats a dead animal, get _some_ of the grains that were inside of that animals stomach, or would they not?


No. It's pretty well documented that wild dogs will eviscerate the stomach of their kill and shake the contents out before eating it. Only very small animals are eaten whole (rodents, birds, and such). Even so, in the wild, few herbivores actually eat grains. They mostly eat grasses, seeds, and leaves. Dogs in the wild are pretty far removed from dietary grains in most cases.


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## RawFedDogs

kevin bradley said:


> I'm not sure where I stand on the "Dogs should only have meat" debate. I've read both sides and without having my own University Study, I'm not sure who the hell to believe. That being said, I do feed grain free.


You don't need a university study. You look to nature and 1,000,000 years of evolution.



> I think one mistake people make(at least I did in the beginning) is that we equate "grain free" w/ no carbs. Hardly the case. Not even close.


No matter what canine nutritional book you look at, you won't find a Minimum Daily Requirement or will you find a Recommended Daily Allowance for carbs for canines.

I better slip away before I get in trouble. :smile:


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## JayJayisme

kevin bradley said:


> 2 aspects of the "DOGS ONLY NEED MEAT" debate that confuse the hell out of me....
> 
> 1. "Dogs have no use for carbs. They provide nothing for them." This confuses me. I've seen Dogs get fat as hell on high carbs/high grain foods. They must be using something in that bag.


Only because the carb sources in commercial dog food are highly processed making the carbs bio-available to the animal even though the same food in its natural state would simply pass through them. You have to look at how dogs eat in the wild, not at their food bowls. Dogs in the wild generally do not seek out carb sources, suggesting that they have no biological use for them. 



kevin bradley said:


> 2. "Dogs only eat meat in the wild." Maybe. I guess. I would say they probably eat more than just meat....but even if they do...who's to say they can't utilize carbs/grains in some way? Is it POSSIBLE?


With a few minor exception, the only times dogs in the wild will eat carb laden food (like fruits, berries, and other plant matter) is for one of two reasons.

1. They are starving to death and have no other food source (i.e. meat) available. Dogs will eat anything they think resembles food to prevent outright starvation. They will even eat rocks and dirt if that's all there is. That doesn't necessarily make these "foods" ideal or biologically appropriate for them. They are just desperate.

2. Dogs in the wild have been known to eat fruits and berries occasionally as taste-driven treats, much like we eat ice cream and candy. But if you look at the scat from a wild dog, like a coyote or fox, that has eaten berries, you'll find that most of them pass through pretty much intact. So while the dog may like the taste, very little is actually extracted from this type of "food".

Alas, the debate rages on, thanks to fuel through disinformation campaigns from commercial dog food manufacturers.


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## Guest

meggels said:


> I know many people feel that grain free is the best way to go, but what are some of your opinions on some of the best foods out there that DO include grains? What makes you believe that these foods are some of the best?


For grain-inclusive kibble I like Precise Plus, Precise Foundation Formula, and the Fromm 4 Star line. I also like California Natural for its limited ingredients.

Currently my 3 guys are dining on grain-free kibble (Acana and Horizon Legacy) and doing well.


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## kevin bradley

Raw and others....

I want to make it clear to you guys that I am in no means saying that Dogs need carbs or grains. 

I just couldn't look someone in the eye, tell them, "your dog MUST eat all meat and here's why" and point to this and this and this......" Whatever book or article I gave him, he could walk out and find someone else saying the opposite. Who to believe?


NET/NET....my gut tells me to side with you guys 100% and I do so somewhat(suppose if I truly did, I'd feed just raw) by feeding all grain free.


And for pete's sake Raw, don't say you need to get out of the discussion before you bother someone....that ain't me. Say what you feel. Nothing pisses me off more than super sensitives out here. How the hell are we gonna learn if people are scared to say what they feel is correct?


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## jdatwood

Dogs lack the long digestive tract necessary to properly process grains.

You can simply look at their dentition and digestive tract. That's all the proof I need that they only need meat, bones & organs.

I have NO problem recommending meat, bones & organs to EVERY dog owner I come across.


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## kevin bradley

jdatwood said:


> Dogs lack the long digestive tract necessary to properly process grains.
> 
> You can simply look at their dentition and digestive tract. That's all the proof I need that they only need meat, bones & organs.
> 
> I have NO problem recommending meat, bones & organs to EVERY dog owner I come across.


Oh yeah, Jon?...then how come Harry will woof down every piece of bread I hold in front of his face? :biggrin:

(just kidding...well, sort of...he will woof it down


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## ziggy29

kevin bradley said:


> Raw and others....
> 
> I want to make it clear to you guys that I am in no means saying that Dogs need carbs or grains.
> 
> I just couldn't look someone in the eye, tell them, "your dog MUST eat all meat and here's why" and point to this and this and this......" Whatever book or article I gave him, he could walk out and find someone else saying the opposite. Who to believe?


As I said, it seems like many vets are compromised by compensation from big pet food companies who would love for vets to have studies showing that grain in food is actually *beneficial* for dogs, when if it were so, their evolution would have likely produced it if it provided an edge for survival.

As far as *must* goes, the main thing is to look at your dog and go by how she reacts to changes in diet. I know that when I pulled corn and wheat completely out of dog's diet, the skin allergy problems are down by at least 80% (and hopefully will more or less go away in coming months as her body continues to "detox"), and the eye boogers have gone down to almost zero. Not as much fur comes out when I brush her these days. These are obvious visible changes, not just a placebo -- and thus a rejection of the "kibble is kibble" argument. These improvements were already evident when I switched from Nutro Max (for which I hope my dog forgives me) to Kirkland, and even that's not grain-free (though with no corn or wheat). And it's even more evident as I transitioned to Orijen and an occasional raw feeding.

There's no question in my mind that grain-free feeding (especially no corn or wheat) has made a difference in how my dog looks and feels.

In short, trust your dog to "tell" you how dietary changes are working.


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## RCTRIPLEFRESH5

kevin bradley said:


> 2 aspects of the "DOGS ONLY NEED MEAT" debate that confuse the hell out of me....
> 
> 1. "Dogs have no use for carbs. They provide nothing for them." This confuses me. I've seen Dogs get fat as hell on high carbs/high grain foods. They must be using something in that bag.
> 
> 2. "Dogs only eat meat in the wild." Maybe. I guess. I would say they probably eat more than just meat....but even if they do...who's to say they can't utilize carbs/grains in some way? Is it POSSIBLE?
> 
> 
> I'm not saying Meat isn't ideal for our Dogs. Mine are doing outstanding on grain free food(Acana currently). I just struggle with the extreme stance that grains/carbs provide NOTHING for dogs. They must provide SOMETHING for them.
> 
> I read alot of stuff(in many topics)...and I've read some outstanding writing on the "Dogs only need meat" stance. But I've also seen writing that comes from top VET schools around the country claim that Dogs can and do utilize carbs and grains. Hell, even the "Corn is horrible" debate is controversial. At worst, many say that corn is pretty harmless for Dogs...admittedly not GOOD for them and shouldn't be the #1 ingredient but nowhere near the Demon that some us make it out to be.
> 
> Again, ALL that being said....I err on the Grain Free side...no doubt. I just have some questions/doubts in my head.


what also confuses me is that raw fed dgs says that dogs cant digest plants..yet dogs will eat plants if they are starving and survive.


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## JayJayisme

kevin bradley said:


> And for pete's sake Raw, don't say you need to get out of the discussion before you bother someone....that ain't me. Say what you feel. Nothing pisses me off more than super sensitives out here. How the hell are we gonna learn if people are scared to say what they feel is correct?


Kevin,

I think RFD (and all of us who feed raw) just want to tread lightly here in the kibble forum lest we be accused of straying off-topic and "pushing the raw agenda". I think everyone has kept that out of this discussion pretty well, and has tried to focus on addressing your questions of carnivore-appropriate nutrition relative to the original topic concerning grains, without an outright push to recommend raw. But before this thread strays too far off the original topic and stirs up a heated debate, perhaps the question of whether grain/carbs/etc. are appropriate for dogs should be discussed in a more neutral forum like the Dog Food Ingredients forum here:

Dog Food Ingredients - Dog Food Forum

Jay


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## ajcstr

jdatwood said:


> Just out of curiosity, WHY would you want to include grains in your carnivores diet?


I certainly have NO idea what the right answer is, but after throwing out corn and wheat, are potatoes really better than brown rice, oatmeal, millet ? When a dog is having digestive issues the vet will normally suggest boiled chicken and rice.

While I definitely can see where carbs would be a problem, I have not resolved the grain vs potato debate. Doesn't potato also artificially push the protein % of a food up similar to pea protein?

Again - I am not arguing for/against grains, would be neat to see a breakdown of proteins from meat/fish % and total carb % for the foods. I know Dog food advisor does this to some extent but does not split the proteins. I am actually looking at a couple brands that have both grains and potatoes because I figure the carbs would be split that way.


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## JayJayisme

RCTRIPLEFRESH5 said:


> what also confuses me is that raw fed dgs says that dogs cant digest plants..yet dogs will eat plants if they are starving and survive.


You COULD eat Twinkies every day and "survive". Your quality of life would likely be poor, but you would survive for awhile on nothing more. That doesn't mean Twinkies are biologically appropriate or ideal. 

There was a sad story here in the Los Angeles area a few months ago about a mentally disturbed person who had tied his dog to a tree in his front yard and never let it off and didn't feed it for weeks. A neighbor finally saw what was going on and called animal control to rescue the poor emaciated thing and when they took it to the vet they discovered it had been eating rocks, dirt, and twigs, the only things it could reach. It survived like this for weeks but much longer and it would have been dead for sure. The moral of the story? Just because a desperate, starving dogs eats something, doesn't mean that something is nutritionally appropriate.


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## kevin bradley

Jay, did the story end well for the dog?


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## kevin bradley

I did want to add something to the discussion....


I really feel like the whole..."let how your dog is doing tell you if your food is appropriate" theme is not the best advice. I think its true to a point. However, the inner workings of a living animal are pretty complex and dynamic. Certainly a nice coat and firm stools are good signs but I'd at least guess there is more going on inside of your Dog that is significantly impacted by his diet. IE-just because you THINK he is doing well on a food doesn't mean all is great. a. you could be missing something b. even if he ISN'T doing so well, it could take months or even years for anything to LOOK not so well(example was given by Jay and the Dog eating rocks and sticks. Even HE survived for awhile).....

Just sayin. I do agree its a decent starting point though.


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## ziggy29

kevin bradley said:


> I really feel like the whole..."let how your dog is doing tell you if your food is appropriate" theme is not the best advice. I think its true to a point. However, the inner workings of a living animal are pretty complex and dynamic. Certainly a nice coat and firm stools are good signs but I'd at least guess there is more going on inside of your Dog that is significantly impacted by his diet. IE-just because you THINK he is doing well on a food doesn't mean all is great. a. you could be missing something b. even if he ISN'T doing so well, it could take months or even years for anything to LOOK not so well(example was given by Jay and the Dog eating rocks and sticks. Even HE survived for awhile).....


Agreed *to a point*, but the problem is that there's only so much dogs can communicate to you. The most important thing is to get the "big stuff" right, which is a diet primarily (if not exclusively) from meat -- this is something that is common to pretty much all dogs. Some studies may say some grains are okay, and that's fine -- but I don't know any credible study that suggests the optimal canine diet is heavy on grains and carbs, and low in proteins.

But after that, individual dogs can and do differ in how they may respond to specific ingredients. And since the dog can't actually talk to you and say what makes them feel best, most energetic, or whatever else, the next best thing we can do is observe them and take note of the non-verbal cues we get. It's painfully obvious to me that my dog is doing much better on grain-free; I don't need someone with a Ph.D. in animal nutrition to tell me that. Smaller differences will be harder to discern, but probably also fairly trivial with respect to getting the big stuff right.

Look at *human* nutrition. We can't even agree on that and we have one study contradicting another study all the time -- *and this is with test subjects who can read, write and speak* with respect to how they are feeling, how much energy they have, what side effects they may be feeling and so forth. If we can't even nail it down on people who have the advantage of clear communications between researcher and test subject, how can we pretend to do it with dogs or any other animals?

As long as we get the big stuff right, as far as I'm concerned the rest is "fine-tuning" based on how your dog behaves and seems to feel.


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## JayJayisme

kevin bradley said:


> Jay, did the story end well for the dog?


I don't know the final outcome but in the last news story I read on this, the dog (a German Shepherd) was recovering and gaining weight without meds.

The most shocking part of this story is that the person who did this worked in a local veterinary hospital! 

Ex Vet Tech Pleads Not Guilty To Animal Cruelty - cbs2.com


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## kevin bradley

ziggy29 said:


> Agreed *to a point*, but the problem is that there's only so much dogs can communicate to you. The most important thing is to get the "big stuff" right, which is a diet primarily (if not exclusively) from meat -- this is something that is common to pretty much all dogs. Some studies may say some grains are okay, and that's fine -- but I don't know any credible study that suggests the optimal canine diet is heavy on grains and carbs, and low in proteins.
> 
> But after that, individual dogs can and do differ in how they may respond to specific ingredients. And since the dog can't actually talk to you and say what makes them feel best, most energetic, or whatever else, the next best thing we can do is observe them and take note of the non-verbal cues we get. It's painfully obvious to me that my dog is doing much better on grain-free; I don't need someone with a Ph.D. in animal nutrition to tell me that. Smaller differences will be harder to discern, but probably also fairly trivial with respect to getting the big stuff right.
> 
> Look at *human* nutrition. We can't even agree on that and we have one study contradicting another study all the time -- *and this is with test subjects who can read, write and speak* with respect to how they are feeling, how much energy they have, what side effects they may be feeling and so forth. If we can't even nail it down on people who have the advantage of clear communications between researcher and test subject, how can we pretend to do it with dogs or any other animals?
> 
> As long as we get the big stuff right, as far as I'm concerned the rest is "fine-tuning" based on how your dog behaves and seems to feel.



Agreed. certainly no issue with someone using it in the whole equation of how our guys are doing.


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## JayJayisme

Now that this thread has strayed way off-topic, I'd encourage anyone interested in the whole meat/raw/carnivore/grain/science/nature debate to read all 10-pages of this thread.

http://dogfoodchat.com/forum/dog-food-ingredients/2329-backed-scientific-study.html


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## meggels

Wow, I go out for a few hours and this things goes completely off topic...


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## DaneMama

It's the nature of the beast here meggels LOL 

It's good that this thread has stayed positive, informative, and polite...let's keep it that way.

As far as looking at body condition, bowel movements, urine and other outwardly signs is an excellent way to know things are going well or not as the first step in evaluating total health. Granted it won't tell you exact liver and kidney values or how the lungs sound but if there were any health issues associated with the major organs, you'd know. BUT sometimes somethings like liver and kidney disease can start out very mild and you'd never see clinical signs. Does that mean everything is ok with your dog? Nope. Does that mean something might have to change in the diet or exercise? Maybe. While you as the owner can get a good picture of general health at home, you cannot pick up on the things you don't know to look for or don't have the means to look for. Annual or semiannual wellness exams as well as bloodwork are the extra tools needed to assess total health of a dog.


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## kevin bradley

Natalie,

agree....but here's a perfect example.

We all debate the issues with Ethoxyquin. Set aside the debate and for sake of discussion, let's assume there is indeed an issue with Ethoxyquin in the food you are feeding your Dog. And it is indeed giving your Dog Cancer....

It would take years for anyone to see any VISIBLE signs that this was happening. 

Just one example. I'd say many foods are reasonably decent enough(the Diamond Foods, for example) to give your Dog a nice outward appearance...but not necessarily the best foods. 

I'm probably splitting hairs on the issue...just wanted to try and illustrate what I'm talking about.


Certainly, if your dog has Diarrhea 24/7, fur that is falling out in clumps and is vomitting all over the house...it's pretty easy. 

Overall, I agree...how your Dog is doing is definitely a good starting point. But I fed Pedigree for years(god forgive me please) and honestly....my Dogs didn't look AWFUL. Stools were ok. Murphy would vomit about once/month but nothing WAY horrible in terms of appearance.


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## meggels

I'd still love to hear thoughts on specific foods lol. I understand that many feel grain free is the way to go, and I agree for the most part, but would love to hear if you HAD to choose some of the best grain inclusive foods, what would you choose.

If I stay with grain free, I'm going to have to go with TOTW I think...


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## Jacksons Mom

danemama08 said:


> There are wolf studies that show that they shake the stomach contents out of their prey animals and just don't eat the digestive tract of larger prey animals. But I'm sure on occasion they do ingest some form of crab source but even if so, the amount is so small and insignificant that it doesn't make much difference in the overall nutrition for the wolf.





JayJayisme said:


> No. It's pretty well documented that wild dogs will eviscerate the stomach of their kill and shake the contents out before eating it. Only very small animals are eaten whole (rodents, birds, and such). Even so, in the wild, few herbivores actually eat grains. They mostly eat grasses, seeds, and leaves. Dogs in the wild are pretty far removed from dietary grains in most cases.


Thanks for the info!!:biggrin::biggrin:


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## kevin bradley

meggels said:


> I'd still love to hear thoughts on specific foods lol. I understand that many feel grain free is the way to go, and I agree for the most part, but would love to hear if you HAD to choose some of the best grain inclusive foods, what would you choose.
> 
> If I stay with grain free, I'm going to have to go with TOTW I think...



Meg, if you have no issue w/ the P & G takeover, I'd say the Natura line would be the best. 

I think most would say Merrick, Acana Grain are others. If you don't have an issue w/ Canidae...it's another option to look at(My Beagle had a violent reaction to Canidae so I'm not a fan)....Diamond also offers some nice foods on paper(Chicken Soup, Prem Edge, Naturals)...but again, you've got some real ? marks there for many of us. 

Honestly, I'd try to get your hands on Acana Grain foods if you really wanted to go down that path. Mostly because they come from a company I feel very good about.


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## meggels

kevin bradley said:


> Meg, if you have no issue w/ the P & G takeover, I'd say the Natura line would be the best.
> 
> I think most would say Merrick, Acana Grain are others. If you don't have an issue w/ Canidae...it's another option to look at(My Beagle had a violent reaction to Canidae so I'm not a fan)....Diamond also offers some nice foods on paper(Chicken Soup, Prem Edge, Naturals)...but again, you've got some real ? marks there for many of us.
> 
> Honestly, I'd try to get your hands on Acana Grain foods if you really wanted to go down that path. Mostly because they come from a company I feel very good about.


I just recently started my dogs on Acana grain free, the grasslands formula. 

I originally started all the switching because I thought my recently acquired Frenchie, Murph, had a food allergy, btu I think it's seasonal/environmental. 

But between price & difficulty in getting the provincal line, I think I'm gonna need to look into something different. 

Some of the ones I'm considering are Merrick, Wellness, From and Nature's Variety *prairie line*. I'll consider TOTW too but I read so much stuff on Diamond, it makes me nervous. I'll prolly steer clear of Natura stuff until further down the road where we hopefully find out what direction the food is going on...


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## ziggy29

meggels said:


> I originally started all the switching because I thought my recently acquired Frenchie, Murph, had a food allergy, btu I think it's seasonal/environmental.


If you suspect allergies then California Natural might be worth a try in the category of food with grains. 

But it could be seasonal or a "contact" allergy, especially if it's only on the dog's underside and paws. Most food allergies seem to be triggered by grains anyway, especially corn and wheat.


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## meggels

Gonna give Fromm a try. I've heard nothing but good things about it. The four star entree line that is...

I'm sure I'll get ripped apart for that choice lol


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## DaneMama

Not at all. I have always liked Fromm foods and the company. Let us know how it goes...


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## pdsway

There are many sides of this coin, and I'm in no way qualified to say what is best for all dogs, but just some thoughts...

- I agree that dogs have "evolved" as carnivores (indisputable) but a) who says dogs "in the wild" have better health? and b) my dog is NOT "in the wild" but in a much healthier, less stressful environment. I want her to be happy and live longer.

- A "balanced" diet makes sense to me, as a human, and easy for me to think so for my dog.

- My dog thoroughly enjoys almost all raw fruits and vegetables. She has never known what it is to be "desperate" for food and seems to enjoy eating just about anything (including meat).

- "Grain free" seems like the latest "fad" in dog food.

- At worst, certain grains cause allergies/problems and those dogs should avoid them. At most, quality grains can improve health, appearance and longevity. But maybe grains are just tolerated / passed thru / keeping the tummy full. This might be darn useful for the "domesticated" dog that's not outside fighting for her life every moment.

- I must consider the practical side of all of this. I love my dog, but have my own life to live as well.

I think *some* quality grains are desirable and as already said, your dog will let you know.

PDS


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## CorgiPaws

If I HAD to feed kibble and it HAD to be grain-inclusive, well, I'd question my sanity, and THEN pick Innova, Merrick, or California Natural, depending on the needs of my dogs. 

Granted, if i HAD to feed kibble, and it HAD to be grain-inclusive, Grissom would be dead... therefore my "need" to feed kibble gone. (no, not a dramatic generalization, for those who know his past and his issues, they know it's true.)

That being said, *NEED* *MINIMUM REQUIREMENTS* *IN THE WILD* and *IDEAL* are all four different things. 
Dogs *NEED* food to survive. They need meat. They need protein. They need calories. They do not NEED veggies, fruits, and grains. Can they eat them? Sure, maybe they won't cause too many issues, but they are not a NEED. 
Dogs *REQUIRE* a certain amount of various nutrients to survive. 
*IN THE WILD* dogs will resort to plant matter for various reasons- none of them being for nutritional value. They may not always have a meat source to eat off of, and may turn to berries, fruit, veggies, grass, dirt, etc simply from the instinct to EAT. In the wild, wolves are exposed to an array of natural elements, harsh weather conditions, disease, rabies, hunting, and dehydration. 
an *IDEAL* diet for dogs would be a natural one. One consisting of optimum sources of protein, as that is the building block. A diet highly digestible so the dog can utilize the nutrients to their full potential. A diet minimal in carbohydrates would be ideal, as they have no nutritional *NEED* for them, and they can cause severe issues.


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## CorgiPaws

CorgiPaws said:


> If I HAD to feed kibble and it HAD to be grain-inclusive, well, I'd question my sanity, and THEN pick Innova, Merrick, or California Natural, depending on the needs of my dogs.
> 
> Granted, if i HAD to feed kibble, and it HAD to be grain-inclusive, Grissom would be dead... therefore my "need" to feed kibble gone. (no, not a dramatic generalization, for those who know his past and his issues, they know it's true.)
> 
> That being said, *NEED* *MINIMUM REQUIREMENTS* *IN THE WILD* and *IDEAL* are all four different things.
> Dogs *NEED* food to survive. They need meat. They need protein. They need calories. They do not NEED veggies, fruits, and grains. Can they eat them? Sure, maybe they won't cause too many issues, but they are not a NEED.
> Dogs *REQUIRE* a certain amount of various nutrients to survive.
> *IN THE WILD* dogs will resort to plant matter for various reasons- none of them being for nutritional value. They may not always have a meat source to eat off of, and may turn to berries, fruit, veggies, grass, dirt, etc simply from the instinct to EAT. In the wild, wolves are exposed to an array of natural elements, harsh weather conditions, disease, rabies, hunting, and dehydration.
> an *IDEAL* diet for dogs would be a natural one. One consisting of optimum sources of protein, as that is the building block. A diet highly digestible so the dog can utilize the nutrients to their full potential. A diet minimal in carbohydrates would be ideal, as they have no nutritional *NEED* for them, and they can cause severe issues.




ETA: "Grain-Free" may or may not be the latest "fad" diet, but low carb certainly has many health advantages especially when it comes to preventative action. To obtain a low carb diet, one must go grain free. Not all grain free diets are low carb, though.


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## meggels

danemama08 said:


> Not at all. I have always liked Fromm foods and the company. Let us know how it goes...


So far, after 1/4 of their dinner tonight being it, they sure seemed to like it lol!

Those are the TINIEST kibbles I have ever seen in my life though! HOLY COW! Murph will be happy with that I'm sure, I think the Acana was a bit harder for him to eat with that tiny little frenchie mouth :wink:


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## pdsway

Fwiw, the sales person at a local dog feed store claims the "Great Life" kibble is "95% digestable", more so than the Orijen, Acana, Instinct, Merrick BG and others that they also sell. That was the first time I heard that term "digestable". Now I understand a little better.

"Great Life" / "Doctors Finest" comes in regular and grain-free formula's, the grain-free costing a tad more.

I corresponded with the company (via email) and they recommend the regular Lamb (for my dog). It has grains, details HERE. Frankly I'm more worried about some of the wacky herbs than the grains, but we shall see.

Here's an article by the "Dr" about the different forms of dog food. It's obvious that anything other than a "balanced raw" diet is a compromise, but neither is non-raw a death sentence.


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## JayJayisme

pdsway said:


> - I agree that dogs have "evolved" as carnivores (indisputable) but a) who says dogs "in the wild" have better health? and b) my dog is NOT "in the wild" but in a much healthier, less stressful environment. I want her to be happy and live longer.


Nobody said dogs in the wild are healthier. Only that their natural diet is the healthiest and in this case, it's the one they have evolved to consume. Few animals in the wild have access to their perfect diet throughout their lifespan. Wild animals also face with injury, disease, parasites, predators, starvation, and all sorts of things that can compromise their health. But logic and anecdotal research indicates that if you had three identical wild dogs, and left one in the wild to fend for itself, and kept one in a proper captive habitat and fed it a proper carnivore diet (meat, bones, and organs), and kept the third in the same proper captive habitat and fed it kibble, the captive dog fed a proper carnivore diet would live the longest and (VERY IMPORTANT) have the highest quality of life of the three. This is why wolves kept in captivity and fed raw meat, bones, and organs live much longer than their wild cousins.



pdsway said:


> - A "balanced" diet makes sense to me, as a human, and easy for me to think so for my dog.


But what is "balanced" for a carnivorous canine? As omnivores, the problem with humans is that we try to apply human nutritional logic to animals. What's good for us must be good for your dogs, right? The dog food companies love this human phenomenon because they can put beautiful, bright images of corn, wheat, soybeans, carrots, potatoes and whatever other junk they put in their food along with a picture of a seemingly healthy dog, and maybe a really "healthy sounding" name for the food, and humans fall for it hook, line, and sinker.

Carnivores DO need a balanced diet but that consists of raw meat, bones, and organs and that's it. If there was a kibble that could properly mimic this diet, I'd shout it from the rooftops. But there isn't so those who are concerned with an optimum diet for their dogs but can't/won't do raw for whatever reason, will try to get as close to this as they can.



pdsway said:


> - My dog thoroughly enjoys almost all raw fruits and vegetables. She has never known what it is to be "desperate" for food and seems to enjoy eating just about anything (including meat).


My dogs do too, particularly one of them who started his life out eating human junk food (before I got him). I love marshmallows and Snickers bars too. I eat them for the taste, not because I'm starving. You are muddying up the subject here by injecting behavior (domesticated dog eating tasty treats given by human) with nutritional necessities (what a dog in the wild would eat if only it's instincts and the availability of that food were the only influences).



pdsway said:


> - "Grain free" seems like the latest "fad" in dog food.


Perhaps that's because there is an epidemic of dogs today with diseases like diabetes and obesity, not to mention horrific allergies to grains. Sadly, "grain free" doesn't mean "filler free" as most grain-free kibble has some other junk in it that is nutritionally useless to a dog.



pdsway said:


> - At worst, certain grains cause allergies/problems and those dogs should avoid them. At most, quality grains can improve health, appearance and longevity. But maybe grains are just tolerated / passed thru / keeping the tummy full. This might be darn useful for the "domesticated" dog that's not outside fighting for her life every moment.


Grains are processed to death in order for dogs to utilize them in some way. If they were left whole, they would pass through the dog like fiber. Unfortunately, processed grains are utilized by dogs, which leads to allergies, obesity, diabetes, and all sorts of issues. I can't imagine any grain "improving the health, appearance and longevity" of any dog.



pdsway said:


> - I must consider the practical side of all of this. I love my dog, but have my own life to live as well.


Understandable, not everyone can do the raw meaty bone thing for whatever reason. But as long as you are armed with the knowledge of what your dog SHOULD be eating in an _ideal world_, and you factor that heavily into the decision you make on what to feed your dog by choosing a high quality food that your dog tolerates well, your dog should do well and live a long healthy life. Just don't believe everything the pet food manufacturers, your local dog food sales person, or your vet tells you about nutrition. They often don't really know, or stand to make money from your decision and therefore should be looked at with suspicion. 

BTW, the term "digestable" is meaningless. You can make wood "digestable" if you process it enough. There was a news story out the other day about shocking ingredients in some fast food. One of those ingredients was sand (used in Taco Bell hamburger meat). I guess if you make sand fine enough you will digest it. Does that make it nutritionally useful?


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## DaneMama

I'd love to see clinical proof that the "Great Life" kibble is 95% digestible...


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## jdatwood

danemama08 said:


> I'd love to see clinical proof that the "Great Life" kibble is 95% digestible...


I'd like to see the stools from it :wink:


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## DaneMama

jdatwood said:


> I'd like to see the stools from it :wink:


Yeah, they'd be nearly non-existent LOL


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## meggels

Poop. Murph had slight diarrhea tonight. Humph. That doesn't give me a whole lot of hope!


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## DaneMama

meggels said:


> Poop. Murph had slight diarrhea tonight. Humph. That doesn't give me a whole lot of hope!


You need to give the adjustment time, at least a month. If you switched him to any other food you'd probably see diarrhea too. Just take it slow and have patience. In time he will get used to the new food. And if he doesn't have normal consistent stools after a few weeks then I would start to lose faith.


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## meggels

danemama08 said:


> You need to give the adjustment time, at least a month. If you switched him to any other food you'd probably see diarrhea too. Just take it slow and have patience. In time he will get used to the new food. And if he doesn't have normal consistent stools after a few weeks then I would start to lose faith.


Thank you for the reassurance. It was just a bummer because while I was transitioning Murph from Premium Edge to Acana, his poops got better and better the more Acana he was given.


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## PUNKem733

pdsway said:


> I think *some* quality grains are desirable and as already said, your dog will let you know.
> 
> PDS


You are so wrong it hurts. Your dog doesn't need to tell you anything, grains are not a biologically appropriate food for a dog. That is the key word "biologically", their bodies are not meant or made to process grains. These are carnivores, not omnivores.

I NEVER recommend any food with grain.


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## ghostrunner

PUNKem733 said:


> You are so wrong it hurts. Your dog doesn't need to tell you anything, grains are not a biologically appropriate food for a dog. That is the key word "biologically", their bodies are not meant or made to process grains. These are carnivores, not omnivores.


First off, I feed my dogs grain-free foods. 

Help me to understand something, from a scientific viewpoint. I raise this because the idea that grains are not "biologically" appropriate for a dog has the qualities of religion: lots of belief, but little proof. I'm not aware of any properly controlled clinical study demonstrating that grains are not biologically appropriate for canines. Sure, dogs may not husk rice in the wild, but that means nothing. My understanding, based on normal mammalian physiology, is that dogs possess the standard panel of carbohydrate digestive enzymes (amylase, etc). And that, like humans, they cannot digest cellulose (corn, etc.). That suggests that they should have no problems handling grains such as brown rice.

But how do you go move from this to the claim that they are biologically inappropriate? I hear the point that grains are responsible for more allergies in dogs, but that could simply be the law of large numbers (more dogs out there on corn/wheat based foods than on pea starch foods). 

So why, you may ask, do I feed my dogs Orijen? Simply because I think their overall quality is the highest, and I agree with the Company's ideals.


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## pdsway

Some good discussion here, thanks to everyone for their input and (most importantly) for being civil about it!

I will certainly consider grain-free kibble but as others said, be careful of the fillers in either case.


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## kevin bradley

If anyone comes up w/ a diet that makes Harry(my soul mate buddy) live to 100, I'll liquidate my 401k for it....

I'd give anything to have him w/ me forever.:smile:


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## JayJayisme

ghostrunner said:


> First off, I feed my dogs grain-free foods.
> 
> Help me to understand something, from a scientific viewpoint. I raise this because the idea that grains are not "biologically" appropriate for a dog has the qualities of religion: lots of belief, but little proof. I'm not aware of any properly controlled clinical study demonstrating that grains are not biologically appropriate for canines. Sure, dogs may not husk rice in the wild, but that means nothing. My understanding, based on normal mammalian physiology, is that dogs possess the standard panel of carbohydrate digestive enzymes (amylase, etc). And that, like humans, they cannot digest cellulose (corn, etc.). That suggests that they should have no problems handling grains such as brown rice.
> 
> But how do you go move from this to the claim that they are biologically inappropriate? I hear the point that grains are responsible for more allergies in dogs, but that could simply be the law of large numbers (more dogs out there on corn/wheat based foods than on pea starch foods).
> 
> So why, you may ask, do I feed my dogs Orijen? Simply because I think their overall quality is the highest, and I agree with the Company's ideals.


First of all, you have to accept that dogs are carnivores. If you are of the false belief that dogs are omnivores, you will never be convinced that high-starch food is inappropriate for a dog. Carb-laden, high-starch food includes grains, potatoes, etc.

Once you accept that dogs are carnivores, it's time to move on to their physiology to understand why grains and dogs don't mix well.

Unlike omnivores, which begin the digestion process in their mouths, carnivores do NOT produce the necessary enzymes in their saliva (amylase, for example) to start the break-down of carbohydrates and starches. 

Amylase in saliva is produced in omnivores and herbivores, not carnivores, and is essential in the proper digestion of starch, cellulose, and carbohydrates in plant matter. 

Since this process doesn't start during the mastication process in dogs, like it does in a human or a horse, it has to start in the stomach which places the burden to produce large amounts of the necessary enzymes (primarily amylase) entirely on the dog's pancreas. 

Feeding carnivores an omnivore diet taxes the pancreas, placing extra strain on it as it's forced to work harder for the dog to digest the starchy, carbohydrate-filled food. It's not unlike the mechanism in humans where a frequent intake of high glycemic carbs pushes the pancreas to produce an unusual amount of insulin to control the glucose spike. This goes on and on, day in and day out, until the pancreas is simply worn out and then, bang, you have diabetes. 

So yes, technically, a dog CAN deal with grains that are processed heavily enough to be digested in it's short digestive tract. But it is a very inefficient process that repeatedly taxes the dog's system, potentially leading to health problems. 

Granted, like people, some dogs do fine and live long, healthy lives with no obvious ill effects of crap diets. But why take the chance? If you add to this all the allergy issues that grains cause (it's practically an epidemic), obesity, and diabetes in dogs, it seems clear that nature is trying to tell those of us willing to listen that in general, grains and dogs don't mix. You may disagree but sadly, once you find out you were wrong, it's too late to reverse the damage caused by inappropriate diet. 

If they could, your dogs would thank you for feeding them high quality, low carb, grain-free food, even if you don't know all the reasons why this is so important to their quality of life and longevity.


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## ghostrunner

Thank you for that very helpful reply. I have a few quick points:

1. While it is true that canids do not produce salivary amylase, they do--as you point out--produce quite high levels of pancreatic amylase. I'm coming at this question as a human/mammalian cardiac physiologist/physician, not a GI specialist. But assuming that the enzyme is evolutionarily similar in dogs as in other mammals, amlyase is produced by the exocrine pancreas, not the endocrine. I am not aware of any known disorder in mammals where strain on the exocrine pancreas leads to pancreatic failure. If you can point me to the literature there, I would be interested. Clearly, beta cell dysfunction and Langerhans cell activity are affected by the glycemic index, but I that's only on the endocrine side.

2. That's important because your argument, if true, suggests that dogs should not just stay away from grains, but all carbohydrates wholesale. That doesn't seem to be supported by any scientific research of which I am aware. Put another way, the "grains are bad because dogs can't digest them" proves too much.

3. If dogs are like most mammals, salivary amylase and mastication are a small part of the digestive process. True, they can't start the process, but dogs produce amylase at much higher levels, measured in U/ml, than other mammals (cats, humans, etc) suggesting less chance of pancreatic "burnout." And again, this argument, if true, would suggest that dogs should eat no carbs at all. 

4. Because of my interest in the subject, I had our library order a copy of a very nice book called "Nutrient Requirements in Dogs and Cats" published in 2006 by the NRC. From what I can gather, it summarizes and cites the known clinical and cellular research on cat/dog nutrition and digestion. This book, and the studies it cites, are my main source of information here. Page 55, in particular, lists some very interesting recent laboratory studies--none of which were funded by dog food companies--concerning the digestibility of starches and, in particular, grains. One quick quote: "Ileal and total tract digestibilities of raw rice and corn starch...are greater than 90%, but digestibilities of raw tapioca and potato starches are only 65 and 0% respectively." (Schlineman et al, 1989).


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## RawFedDogs

ghostrunner said:


> 1. While it is true that canids do not produce salivary amylase, they do--as you point out--produce quite high levels of pancreatic amylase.


Where do you get that information? My information has always said that there is very little pancreatic amylase in a canid's body.



> 2. That's important because your argument, if true, suggests that dogs should not just stay away from grains, but all carbohydrates wholesale.


Thats a true statement. Dogs have no dietary need for carbs in any form. My 10yo Great Dane, Abby, hasn't eaten any carbs in over 8 years. My 5yo Great Dane, Thor, has never eaten carbs in his life. If they were necessary, you would think there would be some kind of sign of some dietary defficiency somewhere, wouldn't you?



> That doesn't seem to be supported by any scientific research of which I am aware. Put another way, the "grains are bad because dogs can't digest them" proves too much.


They can't digest them in their natural state for several reasons, mainly jaw structure and dentation as well as lack of proper enzymes. If they can't digest carbs in their natural state, that would tell me that they don't need them.



> 3. If dogs are like most mammals, salivary amylase and mastication are a small part of the digestive process.


I think that is a semi-true statement. Mastication and salivary amylase are a small part of the digestive process in CARNIVORES. In herbivores and omnivores, its a much larger part.



> True, they can't start the process, but dogs produce amylase at much higher levels, measured in U/ml, than other mammals (cats, humans, etc) suggesting less chance of pancreatic "burnout." And again, this argument, if true, would suggest that dogs should eat no carbs at all.


Again, yes you are correct, they shouldn't. 



> 4. Because of my interest in the subject, I had our library order a copy of a very nice book called "Nutrient Requirements in Dogs and Cats" published in 2006 by the NRC. From what I can gather, it summarizes and cites the known clinical and cellular research on cat/dog nutrition and digestion.


Eventhough this book uses the false premise that dogs are omnivores, no where in the book can you find a minimum daily reqirement nor an average daily requirement for carbs in a dogs diet. It lists the requirements for every nutrient except carbohydrates.

Just the fact that the authors of the books think dogs are omnivores is enough to discredit the whole book. Like the dog food companies, they are selling an omnivore diet for a carnivore. You can't turn a carnivore into an omnivore simply by feeding it an omnivore diet.


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## kevin bradley

Raw,

How do you guys afford RAW feeding? Hamburg and even the cheapest chicken parts at the grocery would seem to cost far more than even Orijen/Acana. Am I missing something? 

Do you guys feed your guys the entire bones and everything? Aren't there choking issues with chicken bones? 

Forgive my naive questions...I'm literally clueless on what you guys do.


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## ghostrunner

1. To clarify, the "authors" of the book I'm referencing are a panel of about 25 scientists commissioned by the National Academy of Sciences of the NIH to review the comprehensive scientific literature on dog and cat nutritional physiology. Nowhere in the book do the authors take any position on the question of whether dogs are carnivores. The book takes no position on anything--it is a textbook summarizing the most recent science on dog/cat physiology: nothing more, nothing less. The book uses no premises -- it just collects the best known science.

2. Dogs have quite high amylase levels--higher than humans, and three times higher than cats. See page 55 of the above-mentioned textbook. Why do dogs have such high amylase levels if they don't "need" carbs? This says nothing of the dozen other carbohydrate enzymes they have (oligosaccharideases, maltase, etc).

3. The effects of carbohydrate restriction are not often clinically observable. But other groups of which I am aware have studied striated cardiac muscle deprived of all carbohydrates and observed a significant breakdown in their intercalated disc function. In humans, this is observed as cardiac arrhythmia, which I have seen in patients who put themselves on ridiculous carb-free diets for long periods of time. As to your dogs not showing any symptoms, as I've said, they are often sub-clinical. 

4. As to the argument that their dentition doesn't allow them to digest carbs, that doesn't square anatomically. True, their mandibles and teeth may have evolved to tear meat, but it doesn't preclude them from eating potato or rice.

Thoughts??


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## ziggy29

ghostrunner said:


> 4. As to the argument that their dentition doesn't allow them to digest carbs, that doesn't square anatomically. True, their mandibles and teeth may have evolved to tear meat, but it doesn't preclude them from eating potato or rice.


If you believe that the jaws and teeth of an animal evolved in a way that maximizes their ability to process the type of food it should eat for best health and vitality -- in other words, if you believe that evolution tends to favor the adaptations most conducive to maximum fitness and survivability in the wild -- then it *does* make sense. I tend to think that if there were some biological and/or evolutionary advantage for canines to eat grains in addition to meat and bones, the canine teeth and jaws would have evolved toward a more omnivorous form, such as the ones found in humans. Such an adaptation would have favored them over hundreds of thousands of years (or more) of natural selection. 

It doesn't mean they *can't* eat some grains or other plant matter, but it probably does mean that there is no evolutionary/survival advantage for doing so. In other words, it's highly unlikely that they are better off with a grain-inclusive diet than a grain-free diet. The animal world hasn't generally evolved in a way that promotes the survival of less-advantageous adaptations.

It's not much different than some of the processed junk many humans eat. A little of it once in a while isn't likely too harmful and a steady diet of it probably won't kill you in the near future, but you *will* feel the difference in terms of how well you feel, how much energy you have, and perhaps what conditions (diabetes, heart disease, cancer) you may increase the chances of suffering years or decades down the road. We didn't develop to derive our optimal nutrition from stuff loaded with processed flours and sugars, excessive sodium, trans fats, high fructose corn syrup or alcohol, to name a few. Yet most of us do have the ability to process these *in appropriately moderate quantities* without any significant negative health effects. Same with a dog, I think; they *can* eat some grains, but Darwin suggests to us there's very likely no species-based advantage to be doing so.


----------



## kevin bradley

Ziggy,

Does much of your stance predicate itself on the belief that evolution is perfect and anything we do(like inserting grain into a carnivores diet) to change it will be disruptive?


----------



## ziggy29

kevin bradley said:


> Ziggy,
> 
> Does much of your stance predicate itself on the belief that evolution is perfect and anything we do(like inserting grain into a carnivores diet) to change it will be disruptive?


No, not necessarily disruptive and evolution doesn't always guarantee that what was *once* best for a species will always be best for it (or else there would be no evolutionary use for adaptation). 

It's just that when our research -- our nutrition science -- is sometimes contradictory, inconclusive or even biased, I'd sooner look at the anatomy and physiology of a species to get a pretty good clue about what the species has evolved to eat. Because the chances are very good that whatever genetic variations or mutations there are over time, the ones that provide the optimal fitness for survival are the ones which will tend endure. 

And even if the anatomy of a canine jaw and mouth isn't 100% proof that an all-meat diet MUST be the superior diet, I consider it significantly better evidence than any other research into canine nutrition I've seen. In other words, I trust the evolution of the canine mouth and digestive system more than I trust any current research, much of which is often contradictory. On the other hand, I see nothing in the canine anatomy that contradicts the idea that canines evolved to be carnivorous.


----------



## kevin bradley

thats fair. 

I've always thought that YES, our Dogs/Wolves have seemed to evolve on a pretty strict diet of meat/protein. 

I've just always wondered to myself...."yeah, so what?" IE-maybe other options would improve their life and evolutionary occurrences maybe weren't in their best interest. 

Interesting. Very much.


----------



## DaneMama

kevin bradley said:


> Raw,
> 
> How do you guys afford RAW feeding? Hamburg and even the cheapest chicken parts at the grocery would seem to cost far more than even Orijen/Acana. Am I missing something?
> 
> Do you guys feed your guys the entire bones and everything? Aren't there choking issues with chicken bones?
> 
> Forgive my naive questions...I'm literally clueless on what you guys do.


Here is a post I made a while back....

http://dogfoodchat.com/forum/raw-feeding/1648-breakdown-cost.html



> If getting started on RAW, breaking down your cost of meat and freezer space is VERY important especially if you have big dogs or multiple dogs.
> 
> Here is our breakdown for our dogs (we don't include the cost of the cat...she gets the scraps LOL)
> 
> Finding a freezer is easier than you think, free ones are posted on craigslist all the time so I would say that cost is neglegible.
> 
> Here is a guide for determining how much freezer space you will need:
> 
> 28 cu. ft. of freezer space for ~500 lbs. of meat
> 14 cu. ft. of freezer space for ~250 lbs. of meat
> 7 c u. ft. of freezer space for ~125 lbs. of meat
> 
> We have an upright freezer that is about 24 cu. ft. and we routinely buy ~300# of meat at a time. We could fit much more considering we package our meat into containers that hold 2-3 days worth of meat.
> 
> 300# of meat usually will last about a month and a half or two.
> 
> We have 4 dogs that weigh:
> 
> Shiloh: 65
> Emmy: 65
> Akasha (currently growing): 65
> Bailey: 115
> 
> We buy meat that is on average (adding up all the costs of the different meats we buy and dividing by the # of meats) 60-75 cents per pound
> 
> Shiloh, Emmy and Akasha all cost us ~ $1 per day to feed
> 
> Bailey costs us ~$2 per day to feed
> 
> The meats we buy on a regular basis:
> 
> chicken backs, turkey necks, beef heart, pork ribs, pork roasts, whole tilapia, pollock fillets, lamb ribs, beef liver, chicken liver, beef kidneys, etc.
> 
> This breakdown does not include all the free meat that we have found to come in contact with (trust me its out there, ya just gotta know where and how to look for it
> 
> So, looking at the breakdown, is RAW worth it???


----------



## RawFedDogs

kevin bradley said:


> How do you guys afford RAW feeding?


Feeding raw is cheaper than feeding a good quality kibble. Much cheaper than feeding a top of the line kibble.



> Hamburg and even the cheapest chicken parts at the grocery would seem to cost far more than even Orijen/Acana. Am I missing something?


I think so. I rarely feed hamburger. I get chicken backs for around $.33/lb. I get chicken leg quarters for around $.50/lb. I get beef heart for less than $1/lb. I do pay around $1.75 to $1.90/lb for Boston Butt pork roast on sale but they only eat one of those a week. I figured up one time that I spend around $.77/lb for all the raw meats I feed. I don't have the figures close to me but I don't think you can buy top notch kibble for much less than $1/lb, sometimes more.

Most of us save money by buying our food in bulk. I buy chicken parts in 40# cases. Most turkey parts come in 30# cases. I have bought beef heart in 60# cases. I have large dogs. They eat a lot.



> Do you guys feed your guys the entire bones and everything?


Yes, I hand my dogs a chicken quarter, or chicken back and they eat it all, bones and all. It's the same with the other animal parts I feed.



> Aren't there choking issues with chicken bones?


Not w/ raw bones. Only cooked ones. Wolves/dogs have eaten bones for millions of years. They know how to do it and they are well equipped to do it.


----------



## Foodie

To answer the OP question, I believe the best grain inclusive food is Eagle Pack Power Formula a super premium food. It's a very *clean* food with a simple formula and has very high quality ingredients. I fed grain free foods since their introduction and after some extensive research I recently changed to this food because of excess shedding on grain free foods. I'm ecstatic to say it's working GREAT for us! Grain free is NOT carb free and what dogs _really_ do best on is a low carb food that gets the bulk of it's protein from a good quality meat and without glutens. For those who don't know, corn gluten meal is not a gluten at all! All dry dog foods need carbs, the dog, not so much because energy can be obtained from fats and protein. Carbs _are_ utilized and can be beneficial for a bitch in whelp or a dog that's recovering from an injury. 

I put my faith in science and not theories. My well fed dogs have always eaten grass, berries and fruit from my many different fruit trees, tell them they aren't omnivores! For the health of your dogs, quality of ingredients should be *the most important factor *that one should consider when selecting a dog food, not whether or not it has grains in it. FWIW, potatoes or any member of the nightshade family are not good for a dog with arthritis.

Here's something for those who lack some facts about corn: 





> Corn (Whole Ground)
> 
> Corn is an ideal ingredient when used correctly in a formula. It is 99% digestible, an excellent energy source, and one of the best natural Omega 6 fatty acid sources.
> 
> Carbohydrates are used in pet food primarily to provide energy. Energy is required for the central nervous system, normal and high levels of physical activity and is also needed when anabolic activities like gestation, lactation and growth are proceeding at a high rate. With little or no dietary carbohydrates available there is added strain on fat and protein. This extra burden on fats and proteins can cause serious problems at birthing time.(1) Judicious use of carbohydrates in a meat meal based formula, i.e. corn, not listed first on the ingredient panel is a nutritionally sound and healthy use of corn and other quality carbohydrates.
> 
> (1) Hypoglycemia prior to whelping, reduced plasma concentrations, reduced number of live births, lethargy, reduced mothering ability, fetal abnormalities, embryo resorption and reduced milk production.
> 
> It Is Not A Filler...
> While we believe in meat meal based diets, meaning meat meal should be listed first on the ingredient panel, corn makes an important nutritional contribution to the formula, as noted above; fillers, such as wheat mids and peanut hulls, do not.
> 
> Rarely Does Corn Cause Allergies...
> A complete literature review shows that corn is rarely incriminated as causing allergies. "Small Animal Clinical Nutrition" addresses this twice: "There have been only six confirmed cases of allergy to corn in dogs reported in the veterinary literature out of 253 total cases." "Corn is a nutritionally superior grain compared with others used in pet foods because it contains a balance of nutrients not found in other grains. Corn provides a highly available source of complex carbohydrates and substantial quantities of linoleic acid, an essential fatty acid important for healthy skin. Corn also provides essential amino acids and fiber. In a survey of veterinary dermatologists, corn was not listed among the ingredients most often suspected to cause food allergies. A review of over 200 confirmed canine cases of food allergy in the veterinary literature revealed only three were caused by corn."
> 
> A Very Digestible Carbohydrate...
> One pet food company that does not have ready access to corn states, rather crudely, that look how corn comes out after we eat corn on the cob and therefore it can't be very digestible. This company knows full well that corn is ground very finely before it is added to the pet food formula. According to "Small Animal Clinical Nutrition", 4th Edition, "Several reports (3) indicate that dogs and cats readily digest starches in commercial pet foods. In studies, dogs were fed foods in which 30 to 57% of the food came from extruded corn, barley, rice or oats. The starch was nearly 100% digested in the small intestine."
> 
> It is difficult to do the math because some base numbers are not available, but probably only one dog out of several hundred thousand dogs are likely to be allergic to corn when used correctly in a Super Premium, meat meal-based diet. With an ingredient that quality research shows to be an excellent ingredient, why would you not want to feed it as the carbohydrate component in the diet?
> 
> Sources: The information above was drawn from fifteen research studies as listed in Small Animal Clinical Nutrition 4th Edition.
> 
> The Holistic Guide for a Healthy Dog. Wendy Volhard and her husband, Jack, train dogs and conduct "Camps" on dog training, nutrition, and holistic care. Howell Book House recently published a second edition of "The Holistic Guide for a Healthy Dog". Volhard regards carbohydrates as crucial for a dog's health, and utilizes grains as the major provider of carbohydrates.


Eagle Pack Super Premium Pet Foods


----------



## RawFedDogs

kevin bradley said:


> Does much of your stance predicate itself on the belief that evolution is perfect and anything we do(like inserting grain into a carnivores diet) to change it will be disruptive?


Inserting grain into a dogs diet is a completely difference premise than evolution. It will have no effect on evolution. However, optimum health cannot be achieved by feeding any animal food that it's body is not equipped ot handle. A dog's body is not equipped to handle grain. Many people argue that a human's body isn't either.


----------



## RawFedDogs

Foodie said:


> To answer the OP question, I believe the best grain inclusive food is Eagle Pack Power Formula, a super premium food.


Hey Foodie. Welcome to the board. Let me explain a few things to you about dog food and dog food companies. First, "premium", "super premium" and "holistic" are terms with no legal definitions. Any dog food company can call their product any or all of these things regardless of the quality of the ingredients in them. Ol' Roy can declare it's products "Super Premium" if they wish. None of the Eagle Pack foods would meet what a normal person would call "premium". They are all pretty medicore foods on the lower end of the spectrum.



> It's a very *clean* food with a simple formula and has very high quality ingredients.


Words straight from their marketing department.



> Carbs _are_ utilized and can be beneficial for a bitch in whelp or a dog that's recovering from an injury.


More words straght from Eagle Pack marketing department.



> I put my faith in science and not theories.


Then understand that words you see printed on the web page of a dog food manufacturer are not science. Heck, they aren't even theories. They are sales pitches designed to entice you to buy their products. 



> My well fed dogs have always eaten grass, berries and fruit from my many different fruit trees, tell them they aren't omnivores!


They aren't omnivores. Dogs eat those things for the same reason we eat cake, ice cream, and candy. For the sugar and the taste. They derive no nutrition from them.



> For the health of your dogs, quality of ingredients should be *the most important factor *that one should consider when selecting a dog food, not whether or not it has grains in it.


Despite what Eagle Pack's marketing department says, corn is a very low quality "food" and is used in dog food as a filler. When you are researching ingredients, look to other places than the dog food companies for your information. Always be wary of information given to you by someone who will make money from the decisions you make based on the information they give you. Get your information from disinterested parties.



> FWIW, potatoes or any member of the nightshade family are not good for a dog with arthritis.


They are not good for any dogs.



> Here's something for those who lack some facts about corn:


This is promotional material straight from Eagle Pack's web site. It absolutely cannot be believed. Again, the purpose of their web site is to entice you to buy their product. IT IS NOT SCIENCE.


----------



## xxshaelxx

Foodie said:


> TI fed grain free foods since their introduction and after some extensive research I recently changed to this food because of excess shedding on grain free foods.


If I'm not mistaken, in humans, your hair and fingernails grow faster when you are more healthy...if this is true, and it pertains to dogs as well, I would much prefer my dogs to shed a lot more, as much of an inconvenience as it is to myself. *shrug*


----------



## CorgiPaws

Foodie said:


> To answer the OP question, I believe the best grain inclusive food is Eagle Pack Power Formula a super premium food. It's a very *clean* food with a simple formula and has very high quality ingredients.


There is no quality of this food that makes it a "simple" food. It does not have a limited ingredient list. it contains more than one protein source. More than one grain. More fillers. I am not sure in what world it's considered "simple" or "clean" or dare I say... species appropriate. Eagle Pack is one of two brands (the other being Blackwood) that really get under my skin. Premium claims. premium prices. Found in premium stores. JUNK ingredient list. I don't get it....



Foodie said:


> Grain free is NOT carb free and what dogs _really_ do best on is a low carb food that gets the bulk of it's protein from a good quality meat and without glutens.


Right! That's a common misconception that I can't stand! All grain free food is NOT low carb. However, ALL low carb food IS grain free. Eagle Pack is not a low carb food, at all. Hence rice & corn.



Foodie said:


> . Carbs _are_ utilized and can be beneficial for a bitch in whelp or a dog that's recovering from an injury.


Carbs are not a necessary part of ANY dog's diet, male female, breeding or not. There is no minimum requirement to sustain optimum health, and in fact, in excess, they are the root of MANY health issues. 



Foodie said:


> My well fed dogs have always eaten grass, berries and fruit from my many different fruit trees, tell them they aren't omnivores!


Put a Chocolate bar in front of my dogs, and I guarantee you, without the shadow of a doubt, they will eat it. That means nothing about their species classification or nutritional needs. nothing. 
That being said, my Corgi will also eat a steaming pile of poo, should he get the chance. ALWAYS has. Owning a dog daycare and boarding business, I see it ALL THE TIME. A good 40% of the dogs that come through here will nibble another dog's poo given the chance. I suppose that's necessary, too?



Foodie said:


> For the health of your dogs, quality of ingredients should be *the most important factor *that one should consider when selecting a dog food, not whether or not it has grains in it.


But... whether or not a food has grains in it has a LOT to do with the quality of ingredients. I also would take into HUGE account the reliability (or lack thereof) of the company producing said food, as well as nutrient analysis.


*ETA:* I can't help but notice all of your pro-Eagle Pack information is, well, written by Eagle Pack. Perhaps seek sources that can't many money off of your choice of food. Seek information that is based off of actual experience, not bogus "food trials" in which only 6 of 8 dogs have to be alive after a few weeks. Do not be brainwashed by propaganda from a company explaining why their cheap fillers are "good" and "beneficial."


----------



## PUNKem733

Congratulations foodie, you've been taken for a ride, and duped. The marketing team for Eagle have earned their money on people like you.


----------



## Foodie

RawFedDogs said:


> Hey Foodie. Welcome to the board. Let me explain a few things to you about dog food and dog food companies. First, "premium", "super premium" and "holistic" are terms with no legal definitions. Any dog food company can call their product any or all of these things regardless of the quality of the ingredients in them. Ol' Roy can declare it's products "Super Premium" if they wish. None of the Eagle Pack foods would meet what a normal person would call "premium". They are all pretty medicore foods on the lower end of the spectrum.
> 
> 
> 
> Words straight from their marketing department.
> 
> 
> 
> More words straght from Eagle Pack marketing department.
> 
> 
> 
> Then understand that words you see printed on the web page of a dog food manufacturer are not science. Heck, they aren't even theories. They are sales pitches designed to entice you to buy their products.
> 
> 
> 
> They aren't omnivores. Dogs eat those things for the same reason we eat cake, ice cream, and candy. For the sugar and the taste. They derive no nutrition from them.
> 
> 
> 
> Despite what Eagle Pack's marketing department says, corn is a very low quality "food" and is used in dog food as a filler. When you are researching ingredients, look to other places than the dog food companies for your information. Always be wary of information given to you by someone who will make money from the decisions you make based on the information they give you. Get your information from disinterested parties.
> 
> 
> 
> They are not good for any dogs.
> 
> 
> 
> This is promotional material straight from Eagle Pack's web site. It absolutely cannot be believed. Again, the purpose of their web site is to entice you to buy their product. IT IS NOT SCIENCE.


I understand where your coming from and what your saying but I have researched the source of these ingredients and *I *say this is a clean food. I could have written a dissertation about corn but I choose to use what EP has to say on the subject, it's much easier and they have it right. :tongue: 

I believe the grain free feeders protest way to much. Calm down, I've been there, I fed grain free for years and I'm not killing my dog . I'm not telling _you_ to feed EP and I'm not berating you for what you feed. Believe me, I'm not uneducated and I know all about marketing. :biggrin:


----------



## Foodie

xxshaelxx said:


> If I'm not mistaken, in humans, your hair and fingernails grow faster when you are more healthy...if this is true, and it pertains to dogs as well, I would much prefer my dogs to shed a lot more, as much of an inconvenience as it is to myself. *shrug*


This doesn't pertain to dogs. If your dog is excessively shedding there could be a nutritional connection.


----------



## ghostrunner

So that everyone is clear about my post (and question) a few pages back - I do *NOT* believe that corn is appropriate for dogs. The text I cited provides recent scientific data showing that corn is poorly digested by dogs, and thus offers little nutritional value. 

The discussion I started was about whole grains as compared to other starches -- NOT corn. Thank you to those who provided thoughtful replies. So as not to hijack this post, I'll move my thread to a new post in the appropriate section of this forum.


----------



## Foodie

ghostrunner said:


> Because of my interest in the subject, I had our library order a copy of a very nice book called "*Nutrient Requirements in Dogs and Cats" published in 2006 by the NRC. * From what I can gather, it summarizes and cites the known clinical and cellular research on cat/dog nutrition and digestion. This book, and the studies it cites, are my main source of information here. Page 55, in particular, lists some very interesting recent laboratory studies--none of which were funded by dog food companies--concerning the digestibility of starches and, in particular, grains. One quick quote: "Ileal and total tract digestibilities of raw rice and corn starch...are greater than 90%, but digestibilities of raw tapioca and potato starches are only 65 and 0% respectively." (Schlineman et al, 1989).


I own this book and I doubt most people out here could _digest_ it :wink:. Good luck reading it, your on the right track.


----------



## Foodie

PUNKem733 said:


> Congratulations foodie, you've been taken for a ride, and duped. The marketing team for Eagle have earned their money on people like you.


Are you sure? Maybe your the one that's being duped.:wink: Money is not an issue for me but I feel I'm paying the appropriate amount for EP and I'm sure much less than what grain free feeders pay.


----------



## RawFedDogs

If money is the issue, why not feed Ol' Roy. It's the cheapest and the first ingredient is corn. Sounds right up your alley. :smile:


----------



## Foodie

CorgiPaws said:


> There is no quality of this food that makes it a "simple" food. It does not have a limited ingredient list. it contains more than one protein source. More than one grain. More fillers. I am not sure in what world it's considered "simple" or "clean" or dare I say... species appropriate. Eagle Pack is one of two brands (the other being Blackwood) that really get under my skin. Premium claims. premium prices. Found in premium stores. JUNK ingredient list. I don't get it....
> 
> 
> Right! That's a common misconception that I can't stand! All grain free food is NOT low carb. However, ALL low carb food IS grain free. Eagle Pack is not a low carb food, at all. Hence rice & corn.
> 
> 
> Carbs are not a necessary part of ANY dog's diet, male female, breeding or not. There is no minimum requirement to sustain optimum health, and in fact, in excess, they are the root of MANY health issues.
> 
> 
> Put a Chocolate bar in front of my dogs, and I guarantee you, without the shadow of a doubt, they will eat it. That means nothing about their species classification or nutritional needs. nothing.
> That being said, my Corgi will also eat a steaming pile of poo, should he get the chance. ALWAYS has. Owning a dog daycare and boarding business, I see it ALL THE TIME. A good 40% of the dogs that come through here will nibble another dog's poo given the chance. I suppose that's necessary, too?
> 
> 
> But... whether or not a food has grains in it has a LOT to do with the quality of ingredients. I also would take into HUGE account the reliability (or lack thereof) of the company producing said food, as well as nutrient analysis.
> 
> 
> *ETA:* I can't help but notice all of your pro-Eagle Pack information is, well, written by Eagle Pack. Perhaps seek sources that can't many money off of your choice of food. Seek information that is based off of actual experience, not bogus "food trials" in which only 6 of 8 dogs have to be alive after a few weeks. Do not be brainwashed by propaganda from a company explaining why their cheap fillers are "good" and "beneficial."


My apologies to you corgipaws, I did respond to your post but for some reason it didn't show up when I hit submit reply. I don't want to type it all over again. here's the short version..... if you "don't get it" about EP then don't feed it. I don't really want want to educate or change you. I never said EP was low carb although it does have lower carbs than most dog foods. Just because a food contains 2 different grains doesn't make it high carb.

Basically, your chocolate example was poor. My dogs hunt for their own fruit. The biggest cause of poop eating is boredom. Do you think it's a coincidence that people that pay to have their dogs watched and entertained also have problems with coprophagia? Also, poop that is rich in nutrients becomes something worth eating. My dogs have NEVER eaten poop.

I'm not sure we have the same definition of quality (couldn't decipher the meaning of your last point.)


----------



## Foodie

RawFedDogs said:


> If money is the issue, why not feed Ol' Roy. It's the cheapest and the first ingredient is corn. Sounds right up your alley. :smile:


I thought I already mentioned money is not an issue. Such passive agressive hostility. This doesn't seem like a very friendly forum.


----------



## ghostrunner

Foodie said:


> I own this book and I doubt most people out here could _digest_ it :wink:. Good luck reading it, your on the right track.


Thank you for letting me know that I'm on the right track. I admit I'm confused, though. I don't see how you could read the sections in this book pertaining to carbohydrate metabolism and come away with the conclusion that corn is _healthy_ for dogs. What do you make of the data presented in Tables 4-7 and 4-9? I think the most you can say in favor of corn is that it is effective in the treatment of pellagra in dogs (pg 222), though I don't know how common that is. 

I do, however, admit that the language on page 61 ("They reported that ground wheat...") is interesting.

Since you have the book, I'll be interested in your thoughts.


----------



## Foodie

ghostrunner said:


> Thank you for letting me know that I'm on the right track. I admit I'm confused, though. I don't see how you could read the sections in this book pertaining to carbohydrate metabolism and come away with the conclusion that corn is _healthy_ for dogs. What do you make of the data presented in Tables 4-7 and 4-9? I think the most you can say in favor of corn is that it is effective in the treatment of pellagra in dogs (pg 222), though I don't know how common that is.
> 
> I do, however, admit that the language on page 61 ("They reported that ground wheat...") is interesting.
> 
> Since you have the book, I'll be interested in your thoughts.


I just pulled my book out. Your overthinking this too much if your worried about "Characteristics of Selected Fibers", Where on page 61 are you seeing "They reported that ground wheat...."? Do you have a biochemistry background or any training in physiology?


----------



## Foodie

What you should be getting out of this chapter is that no SUL or MR for many carbohydrates have been established.


----------



## Foodie

Try reading this first: Small Animal Clinical Nutrition, Hand, Thatcher, Remillard, Roudebush.


----------



## ghostrunner

Foodie said:


> I just pulled my book out. Your overthinking this too much if your worried about "Characteristics of Selected Fibers", Where on page 61 are you seeing "They reported that ground wheat...."? Do you have a biochemistry background or any training in physiology?


Forgive me, since I'm a bit new to message boards and forums. Since you believe that my credentials are at issue, yes, I have a PhD in cellular and molecular physiology with a focus on cardiac muscle behavior. I also have an MD and am board-certified in cardiology. I am a researcher and clinician at a university, where I conduct laboratory research on the molecular basis of arrhythmias. Most important of all, I'm a big dog enthusiast and haven't fed my retriever anything but Champion products for years. 

The sentence on page 61 is on the left hand column, in the paragraph beginning "Dogs are capable of utilizing..."


----------



## PUNKem733

Foodie said:


> Are you sure? Maybe your the one that's being duped.:wink: Money is not an issue for me but I feel I'm paying the appropriate amount for EP and I'm sure much less than what grain free feeders pay.


Yeah that's it, I love to go on a manufacturer's site, and take their word on on canine nutrition as the bible.


----------



## meggels

Man, you guys sure did get way off topic LOL. 

So, it seems that if I do stick with grain free, the only one in my budget would be TOTW. I've fed it before with good results, so I'm willing to try it again. 

If not, it'll be a grain inclusive food, either Nature's Variety *prairie* or Fromm 4 star line.


----------



## kevin bradley

I hope no one complains about this post going off the charts. I learned a lot and may possibly be one step close to a different way of thinking. Not sure I'm ready to leap yet but I will say that if Champion does one thing to push me....I know where I'll be going. 

Some of it is logistical for me....I don't have room to hold lbs and lbs of raw meat in my house. I'd have to invest in a small freezer in the basement which I know isn't a huge deal(believe they are pretty cheap). 

Good topic. Informative.


----------



## meggels

kevin bradley said:


> I hope no one complains about this post going off the charts. I learned a lot and may possibly be one step close to a different way of thinking. Not sure I'm ready to leap yet but I will say that if Champion does one thing to push me....I know where I'll be going.
> 
> Some of it is logistical for me....I don't have room to hold lbs and lbs of raw meat in my house. I'd have to invest in a small freezer in the basement which I know isn't a huge deal(believe they are pretty cheap).
> 
> Good topic. Informative.


Well, I'd still love to hear people's opinions, which is why I originally started the topic to begin with. So, yeah, I'm a little bummed that only like 2 people actually answered the original question lol.


----------



## ajcstr

CorgiPaws said:


> ETA: To obtain a low carb diet, one must go grain free.


And why is that? I am still trying to hash alll this out. 

I read Orijen's white paper on "biologically appropriate food" and they talk a lot about why they choose the protein sources and the fat sources that they do. But no mention on why they choose the carb sources that they do.

I am coming to see from reading these boards that lower carbs are better suited for the animal, but why are potato based carbs better than grain based carbs? What is the reason that no one makes a high protein grain-inclusive formula?


----------



## CorgiPaws

Foodie said:


> I never said EP was low carb although it does have lower carbs than most dog foods. Just because a food contains 2 different grains doesn't make it high carb.


You said that low carb is best. Then went on to say eagle pack is best. These two claims entirely contradict each other. Containing grains does not make it "high carb" fine. If that's what you want to believe. But it definitely means that it is NOT by any means low carb, which you yourself said was best. 



Foodie said:


> Basically, your chocolate example was poor.


Basically, it was the same example you gave on fruits and their dogs. They eat it, so they're omnivores. I'm just saying that just because a dog will eat something, doesn't mean that it holds any nutritional value. It's not that complicated. 



Foodie said:


> The biggest cause of poop eating is boredom.


Actually, it's not. Dogs will eat anything that entice their sense of smell. It can also be a learned behavior, which becomes a habit. Very rarely is it actually a sign that they're "lacking" something in their diet, as most people falsely believe. 



Foodie said:


> Do you think it's a coincidence that people that pay to have their dogs watched and entertained also have problems with coprophagia?


It amazes me how many people like to run their mouths about things they clearly know nothing about. If you knew the kind of daycare we run, and the kind of clients we have, you'd know just how stupid this statement is. Very VERY few of our customers bring their dogs because they're "too hyper" or anything of the sort. Most bring them because they simply don't want them home alone all day while they're at work. A large handful of our customers work for Omniture (bought out by Adobe) and work very long hours. 
Furthermore, my Corgi is far from bored. 



Foodie said:


> I'm not sure we have the same definition of quality (couldn't decipher the meaning of your last point.)


I'm certain we do, consider Eagle Pack a "high quality" food. :smile:



Foodie said:


> I own this book and I doubt most people out here could _digest_ it :wink:. Good luck reading it, your on the right track.


I find it quite ironic that you make sarcatic jabs at the intelligence of the members of this forum, and then go on to tell US we're not friendly. 



Foodie said:


> I thought I already mentioned money is not an issue. Such passive agressive hostility. This doesn't seem like a very friendly forum.


Not a very good impression.


----------



## CorgiPaws

ajcstr said:


> And why is that? I am still trying to hash alll this out.
> 
> I read Orijen's white paper on "biologically appropriate food" and they talk a lot about why they choose the protein sources and the fat sources that they do. But no mention on why they choose the carb sources that they do.
> 
> I am coming to see from reading these boards that lower carbs are better suited for the animal, but why are potato based carbs better than grain based carbs? What is the reason that no one makes a high protein grain-inclusive formula?


Perhaps it would be possible, but as of now, one simply doesn't *exist.* The carbohydrate content in rice is far higher than potato.
23 carbs in one potato.
44 carbs in 1 c rice


----------



## ann g

meggels said:


> Well, I'd still love to hear people's opinions, which is why I originally started the topic to begin with. So, yeah, I'm a little bummed that only like 2 people actually answered the original question lol.


My gsd did best on Wellness Lg Breed Adult, meat content seems a little higher than other Super5mix varieties. I am now on Acana Prairie because all I read is that it is better than grain inclusive. He is doing well on it but was better all around on Wellness. I always add turkey,chicken or beef to his food so he gets plenty of protien. I read a lot of the forums but most people here are all for raw or grain free. Just love your animals and feed them what works well for them.


----------



## xxshaelxx

meggels said:


> Well, I'd still love to hear people's opinions, which is why I originally started the topic to begin with. So, yeah, I'm a little bummed that only like 2 people actually answered the original question lol.


Actually, I've seen a lot of replies to your question riddled in and among the conversation.



ann g said:


> Just love your animals and feed them what works well for them.


My friend's dogs do well on Purina and Pedigree and junk. Should she just continue to feed her dogs that once she finds a job and actually starts making money? My dogs did well on Solid Gold and TOTW. They do ten times better on raw, but since they did well on the kibble, should I switch them back? My point is that something may WORK for your dog, but maybe it's just not the best for them, and what we look for is the best, in hopes that it can lengthen their lifespan and give them less issues throughout it. I know that's why I prefer raw over any kibble any day, especially considering I know exactly what I'm giving my dogs at mealtimes. XD


----------



## Foodie

meggels said:


> Well, I'd still love to hear people's opinions, which is why I originally started the topic to begin with. So, yeah, I'm a little bummed that only like 2 people actually answered the original question lol.


Here's another grain-inclusive dog food for you, *Thrive* made by _The Honest Kitchen_. It's a dehydrated dog food that uses organic quinoa, a grain that does not contain glutens, my dogs LOVE this food. This food is also low carb (37%), has about 28% protein on a dry matter basis and 21% fat. Thrive | The Honest Kitchen 

The food is a very high quality using human grade ingredients although some will say differently just because it contains grains :wink:.



> All our products are safe for human consumption, a requirement for entry into the human food facility where our products are made. Each of our diets are carefully blended to encompass a broad array of amino acids, phytonutrients, vitamins, minerals and enzymes to help achieve and maintain optimum health. Production occurs in a FDA inspected human food facility right here in in the USA, alongside products such as breakfast cereals and beverage mixes for human consumption.


 Pet food ingredients, Pet food processing | The Honest Kitchen


----------



## Foodie

ajcstr said:


> And why is that? I am still trying to hash alll this out.
> 
> I read Orijen's white paper on "biologically appropriate food" and they talk a lot about why they choose the protein sources and the fat sources that they do. But no mention on why they choose the carb sources that they do.
> 
> I am coming to see from reading these boards that lower carbs are better suited for the animal, but why are potato based carbs better than grain based carbs? *What is the reason that no one makes a high protein grain-inclusive formula ?*


What amount of high protein are you looking for? Dogs can only assimilate around 34% protein anyway, anything more than that and your waisting your money.


----------



## ziggy29

Foodie said:


> Dogs can only assimilate around 34% protein anyway


Do you have a reputable source for this claim?


----------



## Foodie

CorgiPaws said:


> You said that low carb is best. Then went on to say eagle pack is best. These two claims entirely contradict each other. Containing grains does not make it "high carb" fine. If that's what you want to believe. But it definitely means that it is NOT by any means low carb, which you yourself said was best.
> 
> 
> Basically, it was the same example you gave on fruits and their dogs. They eat it, so they're omnivores. I'm just saying that just because a dog will eat something, doesn't mean that it holds any nutritional value. It's not that complicated.
> 
> 
> Actually, it's not. Dogs will eat anything that entice their sense of smell. It can also be a learned behavior, which becomes a habit. Very rarely is it actually a sign that they're "lacking" something in their diet, as most people falsely believe.
> 
> 
> It amazes me how many people like to run their mouths about things they clearly know nothing about. If you knew the kind of daycare we run, and the kind of clients we have, you'd know just how stupid this statement is. Very VERY few of our customers bring their dogs because they're "too hyper" or anything of the sort. Most bring them because they simply don't want them home alone all day while they're at work. A large handful of our customers work for Omniture (bought out by Adobe) and work very long hours.
> Furthermore, my Corgi is far from bored.
> 
> 
> I'm certain we do, consider Eagle Pack a "high quality" food. :smile:
> 
> 
> 
> I find it quite ironic that you make sarcatic jabs at the intelligence of the members of this forum, and then go on to tell US we're not friendly.
> 
> 
> 
> Not a very good impression.


There's a *big *difference between offering a dog a chocolate bar (not natural) and a dog _hunting_ for fruit on it's own, I'm surprised you can't understand that.

Coprophagia was NEVER the problem that it is today. Perhaps it's our busy lives or dog food isn't _balanced _or maybe too rich. Actually you need to do your research, boredom is a major cause of poop eating.


----------



## RawFedDogs

Foodie said:


> What amount of high protein are you looking for? Dogs can only assimilate around 34% protein anyway, anything more than that and your waisting your money.


Where do you get that information? Do you think its percentage of protein or amount of protein that's important? Are you talking about protein in a dry matter basis or as fed?


----------



## Foodie

CorgiPaws said:


> Perhaps it would be possible, but as of now, one simply doesn't *exist.* The carbohydrate content in rice is far higher than potato.
> 23 carbs in one potato.
> 44 carbs in 1 c rice


I apologize for my comment that most people on this forum couldn't "digest" the highly technical NRC publication. Statements made such as yours in this post give me the impression that many that are giving nutritional advice know very little about nutrition . You can't compare the carbs in one potato to the carbs in 1 cup of rice, you would instead compare the percentages each food contains.

If you compare potato, rice and corn you will see potato has the highest percentage of carbs of the three. Potato also has the smallest percentage of fat and protein. Rice contains a smaller amount of carbs and a higher protein and fat content over potato. Corn beats them all with the least amount of carb content and the highest percentage of fat and protein. 
Nutrition facts, calories in food, labels, nutritional information and analysis – NutritionData.com

EP Power Formula is low carb at around 31% according to the nutrient analysis. Most dog foods _probably_ contain too many carbs and not all grain free foods are low carb. The term "grain-free" is a marketing tool and does not mean no carbs or low carbs.


----------



## Foodie

Ghostrunner, I didn't mean to offend you at all and I don't think you'll have trouble getting through the NRC publication, just don't over think it, it's a collection of research that backs up how the AAFCO sets their standards. The Small Animal Clinical Nutrition might be more useful to you.

I'm not a huge forum poster, I mainly wanted to answer the OP's question (and it was a good question). I didn't realize this forum is primarily focused on "grain-free" and raw feeders that don't want to think outside that box. I didn't mean to offend anyone and I wish you all good luck.


----------



## ziggy29

Foodie said:


> The term "grain-free" is a marketing tool and does not mean no carbs or low carbs.


I *partially* agree. It's certainly true that "grain-free" does not automatically mean "low carbs" (or "high protein" for that matter) any more than "low fat" necessarily means lower calorie.

That doesn't change the idea that many dogs have food allergies and that allergies to grains appear to be the most common food allergies in commercial pet food. Some carbs appear to be higher "quality" for dogs in terms of extracting nutritional value and avoiding allergic reactions.



Foodie said:


> Coprophagia was NEVER the problem that it is today.


You're sure making a lot of assertions without evidence today. Got anything to show an increase in the rate of coprophagia over, say, the last few decades? Or anything to suggest the causes? 

"Never" implies a long, long time, far before the days of science and human observation.


----------



## Grizcat68

*Interesting read!*

I'm a new member here and I just read through this long post. I hope that I don't get slammed for being nieve about this but what is you desire for your dogs, health, long life, or both? I have fed my yellow lab Iams Lamb and rice for most of his life. He does shed quite a bit, small boogers in his eyes, but poop is fine and was very active until last year or so. I sort of laugh looking at all this information, if I would have found this site when he was a pup I would have figured he would only live 8-9 years on such a sub-standard food, but he's a couple months shy of 15 years old. I do hope to learn from this site, I do find it very interesting on how just a slight change in diet can cure some of the problems that dogs have. Thanks for all the information!


----------



## PUNKem733

Grizcat68 said:


> I'm a new member here and I just read through this long post. I hope that I don't get slammed for being nieve about this but what is you desire for your dogs, health, long life, or both? I have fed my yellow lab Iams Lamb and rice for most of his life. He does shed quite a bit, small boogers in his eyes, but poop is fine and was very active until last year or so. I sort of laugh looking at all this information, if I would have found this site when he was a pup I would have figured he would only live 8-9 years on such a sub-standard food, but he's a couple months shy of 15 years old. I do hope to learn from this site, I do find it very interesting on how just a slight change in diet can cure some of the problems that dogs have. Thanks for all the information!




No one ever said that a dog can't live a fairly long life on crap like Iams or pedigree. Just like several family members of mine who have large meals in the middle of the night, or an alcoholic grandfather who lived to be 92, who was also an EXTREMELY unhealthy eater, who smoked for almost 75 years you can live along life, but the quality of life goes down the tubes like that. 

So instead of "sort of laughing", do some more research on the garbage you feed your boy, and get him on something more appropriate.


Oh and I do want to mention I would recommend one food with grain, and that his Pinnacle Peak Protein.


----------



## meggels

PUNKem733 said:


> No one ever said that a dog can't live a fairly long life on crap like Iams or pedigree. Just like several family members of mine who have large meals in the middle of the night, or an alcoholic grandfather who lived to be 92, who was also an EXTREMELY unhealthy eater, who smoked for almost 75 years you can live along life, but the quality of life goes down the tubes like that.
> 
> So instead of "sort of laughing", do some more research on the garbage you feed your boy, and get him on something more appropriate.
> 
> 
> Oh and I do want to mention I would recommend one food with grain, and that his Pinnacle Peak Protein.


I think maybe their point was that one can drive themselves crazy and be neurotic about trying to figure out what food they can feed their dog. At least, that's how I took it, which I agree with, as I AM that person LOL. 

Right now I need to be a bit cheaper and frugal with my money so I've decided between TOTW or Blue BUffalo. BB has a higher calorie content...


----------



## Grizcat68

I am also looking to feed a new pup a better food and that is why I came to this site. I have to say that I am already getting turned off to this site from all the negativity that I see and what I have experienced already in one day. It seems to be fueled from RAW feeders mostly, sorry, just what I see. I am planning on some raw, but don't plan on trying to force my ideas on others. I guess thats why I'm here, learn and decide what fits my dog and lifestyle. Don't get me wrong, I see positive posts also so I will hang around a bit longer for some "Learning"


----------



## whiteleo

Don't get turned off, please stay around and read some posts for the sake of the dog, we've all been there, me included as I fed Nutro for a very short time until I read on another site about all the food recalls and dog deaths attributed to it.

I feed raw but in no way push others in that direction because that is something they have to discover for themselves, but I will say I did go to a much higher quality dogfood and saw a great improvement in my dogs overall health because of their allergies.


----------



## SaltyDog

meggels said:


> I know many people feel that grain free is the best way to go, but what are some of your opinions on some of the best foods out there that DO include grains? What makes you believe that these foods are some of the best?



I like Canine Caviar for a grain inclusive food. No rendered meat meals and 599 calories per cup!!!! Check out how Canine Caviar is made....very intertesting method.


----------



## Zeke

*New Member - Curious Observation*

I am glad I found this forum. Really looking forward to gleaning as much knowledge as I can.

I have 2 rotties. 1 - 7 month old male, and recently rescued 2.5 year old male.

I have been struggling to find a food that the pup will tolerate. I've been through several premium brands (Innova, TOTW, Canidae GF ALS etc) and have not been able to find one that he didn't blow right out his back end. (He's been through every test available...just has a very sensitive stomach). This has resulted in slow weight gain (he's about 10# under for his age). I have recently started him on Wellness Core and so far so good.

The 2.5 year old threw me for a loop. His previous owner raised him on Ol Roy. This boy is in near perfect form. Very strong, great coat, solid stool etc. I was just surprised how well he developed on Ol Roy. Don't get me wrong, I'm not giving Ol Roy _any_ credit here....Ivan's been switched to Core.....Just thought it was kind of confusing I guess..

Anyway, looking forward to following this forum.


----------



## RawFedDogs

Over feeding can cause the problem you are describing. How much and how often are you feeding the pup? What else do you feed for snacks or in addition to the kibble if anything?


----------



## whiteleo

Well Ol' Roy is full of fillers and that could be why he didn't have any poop issues, when you switch a dog over to a higher quality dog food a very slow switch is in order since they are getting a higher protein content, also, you cannot feed the same amount of the new food as you did the old food as this definitely will cause explosive diarreah.
Hope your dog continues to do well on the core


----------



## Zeke

*Thanks*

Thanks for the replies.

Zeke (the pup) gets 3.5 cups / day. 2 in AM, 1 in PM.

Not much in the way of snacks, most have caused issues. He is doing OK with a training treat brand "101". But he only gets a handful a day with training.

Ivan (the older) is being transitioned to Core "cold turkey". I don't have Ol Roy, and won't buy it for the transition. He's transitioning well.


----------



## RawFedDogs

Zeke said:


> Zeke (the pup) gets 3.5 cups / day. 2 in AM, 1 in PM.


Try cutting him back to 3 cups/day spread over 3 meals. This will only be temporarily until he adjusts to the new food and he matures a little more.


----------



## Zeke

I'll do that.....thanks again!


----------



## GermanSheperdlover

meggels said:


> I know many people feel that grain free is the best way to go, but what are some of your opinions on some of the best foods out there that DO include grains? What makes you believe that these foods are some of the best?


*California Natural is/was until P&G bought them...
Acana*****
Artemis****
Fromm*****
Innova,,, Bummer P&G
Evanders***
GO***
Merrick****
Natures Variety***
Pinnacle***
Timberwolf******
*All make very good dog foods with grain in them..*


----------



## SaltyDog

jdatwood said:


> Adding grain to your dogs diet is the worst thing you could do aside from feeding them sawdust.



How is a bag of dog food, full of potatoes better than a bag of dog food with brown rice?

I do feed grain free....but it is certainly aimed at people, not dogs.


----------



## wrangler1

The best kibble on the market is Annamaet. It has 3 grains that are about 30% of the food.


----------



## SaltyDog

wrangler1 said:


> The best kibble on the market is Annamaet. It has 3 grains that are about 30% of the food.


Unless your dog is allergic to corn, flax or brewers yeast


----------



## wrangler1

Allergies in dogs are generally from proteins not grains. I have never heard of of an allergy to flax or brewers yeast. Corn is the most misunderstood ingredient in dog food but extremely valuable. As for flax, most foods have it and its a high quality ingredient, whether oil or meal.

There is a hysteria about allergies but the reality is that most problems are not allergies to food, let alone grains.

That said 25 - 30% is the limit. Downey's Encore & Option are corn free if you must have corn free.


----------



## ruckusluvr

wrangler1 said:


> The best kibble on the market is Annamaet. It has 3 grains that are about 30% of the food.


there IS no best kibble. every kibble works differently for different dogs. a good kibble will have AT LEAST two named meat ingredients in the first 5 listed ingredients. Accessible grains are not good for a dog. they cannot even get much nutritional value(if any) out of grains. lots of dogs do have a hard time digesting grains. grains for the most part = fillers.


----------



## wrangler1

You are just a label reader with probably one or two house dogs. I doubt you have any professional or scientific experience with pet food. I do.

You say that the food should have two named meat ingredients. A food with one named meat can actually have far more animal protein than a food with 2 or 3 named meats. Since you don't know the actually weights of the ingredients you can't tell from reading the label. Plus any fresh meat includes the water weight.

Do you follow?


----------



## Ania's Mommy

wrangler1 said:


> You are just a label reader with probably one or two house dogs. I doubt you have any professional or scientific experience with pet food. I do.
> 
> You say that the food should have two named meat ingredients. A food with one named meat can actually have far more animal protein than a food with 2 or 3 named meats. Since you don't know the actually weights of the ingredients you can't tell from reading the label. Plus any fresh meat includes the water weight.
> 
> Do you follow?


I have found your posts to be condescending and downright rude. Apparently you feel as though you have much dog food knowledge to share with this community. And that is perfectly fine. We are all here to learn. However, when you come here and insult the intelligence of members here, do you really think that anyone will give any of your wisdom any consideration?

I always welcome other people's viewpoints and like looking at things from a different perspective, but please don't be a jerk about it.

Richelle


----------



## luvMyBRT

Thank you Richelle!
I was going to post, but I think you probably did a much better (nicer) job of it! :tongue:


----------



## ruckusluvr

wrangler1 said:


> Plus any fresh meat includes the water weight.
> 
> Do you follow?


i know this, and tell people this all the time.
thank you very much


----------



## CorgiPaws

wrangler1 said:


> Allergies in dogs are generally from proteins not grains.


Wrong. 



wrangler1 said:


> I have never heard of of an allergy to flax or brewers yeast.


I have. 



wrangler1 said:


> Corn is the most misunderstood ingredient in dog food but extremely valuable.


When I took my beagle off of a food with corn in it, his seizures stopped, and he didn't have to take meds anymore. 



wrangler1 said:


> There is a hysteria about allergies but the reality is that most problems are not allergies to food, let alone grains.


I would agree that a lot of people immediately assume "food allergy" when it could be a million other things, but to say that corn isn't a bad ingredient in dog food just shows pure ignorance. Dogs are CARNIVORES. Therefore, they need a diet consisting primarily of meat, bones, and organs... even in kibble form. To say that corn is acceptable in a dog's diet is silly. But then again, in reading your posts, you seem pretty silly yourself.:tongue:


----------



## RawFedDogs

wrangler,
I think I have read every one of your post and I have never seen anyone so full of it in my life. I have never seen so much misinformation given by one person in so short of time.

Dogs are not allergic to proteins, at least not animal based protiens. They are carnivores and as such their bodies are designed from the tip of their snout to the base of their tail to eat and digest meat, bones, and organs. Their food allergies are to plants in kibbles. I am old enough to remember when kibble wasn't normally fed to dogs and they didn't have nearly the health problems they have today.

Stick around long enough and you will see post after post stating, "my dog had this allergy or that allergy and when I switched to a prey model raw diet, all those disappeared. DOGS ARE NOT ALLERGIC TO RAW MEAT BASED PROTEINS.

Corn is a pretty much useless "food" both to dogs and humans but particularly to dogs. It is basically undigestable. The only place you will find positive things written about corn is in the marketing material put out by dog food companies that contain a lot of corn.

Many dogs are allergic to flax. It's one of the biggest allergens in dog food.

I suggest to you again. Do some research. Learn something about canine nutrition. Study wild wolves. Learn how and what they eat. Look to nature. Nature got it right. If nature was wrong, wolves/dogs would have gone extinct thousands of years ago.


----------



## RawFedDogs

wrangler1 said:


> You are just a label reader with probably one or two house dogs. I doubt you have any professional or scientific experience with pet food. I do.


I don't think so. I don't see any knowledge of canine nutrition in any of your posts. I see the normal hype from the dog food companies being parrotted.



> You say that the food should have two named meat ingredients. A food with one named meat can actually have far more animal protein than a food with 2 or 3 named meats. Since you don't know the actually weights of the ingredients you can't tell from reading the label.


Thats partially true. If you see a meat as the 1st ingredient then the next 3 or 4 ingredients are grains, then you can say that the food has very little meat in it. If 3 of the first 5 ingredients are meats, you can assume that it is relatively high in meat content. Although the meat in kibble is the lowest of low quality meats. They are the garbage that would be sent to the dump if not bought by the dog food plants.



> Plus any fresh meat includes the water weight.


I think way too much is made of the water in meat. Meat is mostly water. All the meat I feed my dogs is mostly water. So what?

Honestly I don't think you are condesending or rude. I think you are just ignorant. Stick around and you will be amazed at how your ignorance will fade and you will become knowledgable about canine nutrition and eating habits.

You will learn how the digestive system works and what happens when something doesn't work. You will learn what makes dogs carnivores and how they should not eat anything that comes from a plant.

You will learn why kibble contains so much plant matter and why dogs shouldn't eat carbs.

Do you follow? :smile:


----------



## Unosmom

> I have never heard of of an allergy to flax or brewers yeast.


I didnt read the whole thread, but this really irked me because my dog has a horrible allergy to yeast, he gets welts all over the body, starts itching, eye discharge and stomach upsets. 
So, please, do some reseach before spewing uneducated info.


----------



## SaltyDog

wrangler1 said:


> I have never heard of of an allergy to flax or brewers yeast.


Well, my 4 year old Weim is allergic to brewers yeast. Guess that sucks huh.


----------



## PUNKem733

wrangler1 said:


> Allergies in dogs are generally from proteins not grains. I have never heard of of an allergy to flax or brewers yeast. Corn is the most misunderstood ingredient in dog food but extremely valuable. As for flax, most foods have it and its a high quality ingredient, whether oil or meal.
> 
> There is a hysteria about allergies but the reality is that most problems are not allergies to food, let alone grains.
> 
> That said 25 - 30% is the limit. Downey's Encore & Option are corn free if you must have corn free.


If you really believe this, and this is not a joke account, and you would never consider any other way, just leave now. I'll pray for any dogs you own.


----------



## wrangler1

I suggest you do some real research on allergies. Grains are very rarely the problem and when they are its generally wheat. I am not advocating a grain heavy diet I am just saying that the source of allergies is overwhelmingly protein.

Corn In Pet Foods | GREATDANELADY.COM

This is a good place to start.


----------



## dobesgalore

wrangler1 said:


> I suggest you do some real research on allergies. Grains are very rarely the problem and when they are its generally wheat. I am not advocating a grain heavy diet I am just saying that the source of allergies is overwhelmingly protein.
> 
> Corn In Pet Foods | GREATDANELADY.COM
> 
> This is a good place to start.


your a joke. And a troll.


----------



## RawFedDogs

I've been reading Linda Arndt(Great Dane lady) for close to 10 years and have never been impressed with anything she says. She has always pushed Eagle Pack dog food which is a mediocre food at best. She has no understanding and a great fear of raw feeding.

She claims to have great credentials but can't prove it by her writings.


----------



## StellaLucyDesi

Well, I'm just gonna state my opinion and experiences. I have fed grain-inclusive, then switched to grain-free, and now I'm back to grain-inclusive. I've not fed prey model raw, only barf for a short while, which proved to be too much for my household. I also add canned meat to my dogs kibble. My dogs did great on some of the grain-inclusive foods...Fromm 4-Star, EP Holistic Select, Merrick. But I decided I wanted to see if they could do better (coat condition, stool consistancy, tear/mouth stains, etc.), so I switched to and used at different times Orijen, Acana, Nature's Variety Instinct, TOTW, CORE RF and Ocean. They did well on Orijen (maybe only a wee bit better than the grain-inclusives), well on Acana (similar to Orijen), did not do well on Instinct (worst tear and mouth stains ever!), and not well on TOTW (throwing up, rocket butt lol), did very well on CORE RF and Ocean (the best of the grain-frees for us and I may use again). I have since gone back to grain-inclusive. My favorites - for my dogs, that is - are Fromm 4-Star, Wellness, Blue Buffalo, Holistic Select, Castor & Pollux Organix and Canine Caviar (which, btw, is pretty low in carbs for a grain-inclusive food). 

Btw, to Saltydog: Yes, Canine Caviar is a really cool food! Since my dogs have been eating it, they have shiny, silky coats, good weight, great stools haha and they eat it heartily! There was no transition period! They eat the Lamb & Millet variety. I also have a senior dog with kidney issues that is eating the CC Special Needs along with a nutraceutical for kidneys and she is doing so much better. This is a food that doesn't get much press, is grain-inclusive, but has been a great food for my four dogs. In fact, they look and act better (and their blood panels) have been the best on this food as yet! Interesting!


----------



## dobesgalore

wrangler1 said:


> You are just a label reader with probably one or two house dogs. I doubt you have any professional or scientific experience with pet food. I do.
> 
> You say that the food should have two named meat ingredients. A food with one named meat can actually have far more animal protein than a food with 2 or 3 named meats. Since you don't know the actually weights of the ingredients you can't tell from reading the label. Plus any fresh meat includes the water weight.
> 
> Do you follow?


What IS your professional experiance?


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## luvMyBRT

Yeah. I am wondering the same thing. ^^^
Pleeeease do tell.....what is your experience. What makes you all knowing??


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## jdatwood

wrangler1 said:


> I suggest you do some real research on allergies. Grains are very rarely the problem and when they are its generally wheat. I am not advocating a grain heavy diet I am just saying that the source of allergies is overwhelmingly protein.
> 
> Corn In Pet Foods | GREATDANELADY.COM
> 
> This is a good place to start.


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## PUNKem733

wrangler1 said:


> I suggest you do some real research on allergies. Grains are very rarely the problem and when they are its generally wheat. I am not advocating a grain heavy diet I am just saying that the source of allergies is overwhelmingly protein.
> 
> Corn In Pet Foods | GREATDANELADY.COM
> 
> This is a good place to start.


ROFLMAO!!! Please stick around, I could use a laugh here and there.


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## luvMyBRT

PUNKem733 said:


> ROFLMAO!!! Please stick around, I could use a laugh here and there.


LMAO! He/she will give you tons of chances to post up some of those funny pics/short videos you do! I always get a good laugh with those! :biggrin:


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## Foodie

I'm surprised with the lack of knowledge on this forum about intolerance's or sensitivities vs. allergies and to say that a dog who is allergic to chicken meal will not be allergic to raw chicken is just outrageous!  Cooking a protein breaks the molecule down and makes it smaller and less allergenic but a dog that is truly allergic to chicken will be allergic to chicken whether cooked or raw.

Many dogs are intolerant to flaxseed because of the lignans in the seed coating. Flaxseed is also a natural laxative. Most dogs that have problems with flaxseed or flaxseed meal do fine with flaxseed _oil_.


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## DaneMama

Foodie said:


> I'm surprised with the lack of knowledge on this forum about intolerance's or sensitivities vs. allergies and to say that a dog who is allergic to chicken meal will not be allergic to raw chicken is just outrageous!  Cooking a protein breaks the molecule down and makes it smaller and less allergenic but a dog that is truly allergic to chicken will be allergic to chicken whether cooked or raw.


Do you understand how allergies work? Cooking doesn't break the molecular structure but changes the *shape* (ie denaturing the protein) of it allowing it to bind to receptors which mediates an immune response in the form of an allergy. Allergy testing on dogs is done with cooked protein forms only....why test for raw when raw is not supported by the veterinary industry? My bet would be that if allergy tests included raw chicken proteins (and other raw meat proteins) they wouldn't elicit a response like their cooked counterparts. This is obviously just my speculation from what I've seen personally tested, what I've read and what I've heard.

I have also seen countless dogs go from eating a primarily chicken based kibble with horrible allergic responses to eating an exclusively raw chicken diet and ALL symptoms cease to exist. Funny thing right? Just a coincidence? Who really knows because of all the COUNTLESS ingredients that you have NO idea where they came from and what kind of synthetic process they've gone through to get to the finished kibble product. Allergic reactions are nearly IMPOSSIBLE to diagnose on a kibble diet because there are WAY too many variables in the diet and ANY one of them could be the culprit. So the logical answer to a horrific case of allergies from diet is to go as LIMITED ingredient as possible.


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## RawFedDogs

Foodie said:


> I'm surprised with the lack of knowledge on this forum about intolerance's or sensitivities vs. allergies and to say that a dog who is allergic to chicken meal will not be allergic to raw chicken is just outrageous!


Hang around a while and you will find out just how wrong you are. There are several people on this board and other boards I have been on that claim their dog was allergic to chicken only to switch to a raw diet and feed lots of chicken with no allergic reactions at all. Maybe their dog wasn't allergic to chicken. I don't know. I do know their owners thought they are allergic to chicken. When the switched they could eat chicken without problem.



> Cooking a protein breaks the molecule down and makes it smaller and less allergenic but a dog that is truly allergic to chicken will be allergic to chicken whether cooked or raw.


The technicalities of allergies are Natalie's area of expertese, not mine. I don't know all that stuff. All I know is dogs whose owners thought they were allergic to chicken while they were on a kibble diet, did not have allergic reactions when switched to a raw diet. Thats all I need to know.



> Many dogs are intolerant to flaxseed because of the lignans in the seed coating. Flaxseed is also a natural laxative. Most dogs that have problems with flaxseed or flaxseed meal do fine with flaxseed _oil_.


I don't know why you would feed flaxseed to a carnivore anyway. Its entirely inappropriate and there is no good reason to do so.


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## DaneMama

I personally think there is an evolutionary tie into why dogs seem to be allergic to COOKED meat proteins and not RAW cooked proteins. It almost makes perfect, clear sense to me why dogs are allergic to cooked proteins...because they shouldn't be eating them in the first place. It wouldn't make any sense for a dog to be allergic to raw proteins because that is what they are meant to eat.


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## whiteleo

My dog Leo is allergic to beef, cooked and in kibble, he doesn't have the usual allergic reaction most dogs have, he foams at the mouth and has horrible diarreah. 

But boy does he love him some raw beef, no reaction at all.:biggrin:


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## Foodie

danemama08 said:


> Do you understand how allergies work? Cooking doesn't break the molecular structure but changes the *shape* (ie denaturing the protein) of it allowing it to bind to receptors which mediates an immune response in the form of an allergy. Allergy testing on dogs is done with cooked protein forms only....why test for raw when raw is not supported by the veterinary industry? My bet would be that if allergy tests included raw chicken proteins (and other raw meat proteins) they wouldn't elicit a response like their cooked counterparts. This is obviously just my speculation from what I've seen personally tested, what I've read and what I've heard.
> 
> I have also seen countless dogs go from eating a primarily chicken based kibble with horrible allergic responses to eating an exclusively raw chicken diet and ALL symptoms cease to exist. Funny thing right? Just a coincidence? Who really knows because of all the COUNTLESS ingredients that you have NO idea where they came from and what kind of synthetic process they've gone through to get to the finished kibble product. Allergic reactions are nearly IMPOSSIBLE to diagnose on a kibble diet because there are WAY too many variables in the diet and ANY one of them could be the culprit. So the logical answer to a horrific case of allergies from diet is to go as LIMITED ingredient as possible.


Cooking can produce new epitopes but meat meals are rendered separately and covalent modification is unlikely.


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## Foodie

RawFedDogs said:


> I don't know why you would feed flaxseed to a carnivore anyway. Its entirely inappropriate and there is no good reason to do so.


I agree with this! The lignans also contain a phytoestrogen that can play havoc with breeding. I think it's popularity is due to economics.


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## jdatwood

Foodie said:


> Cooking can produce new epitopes but meat meals are rendered separately and covalent modification is unlikely.


Now that your intent is to obviously show us how intelligent you are would you mind showing some netiquette and introduce yourself?

I for one would appreciate knowing something about the person that's trying make all of us sound stupid by flaunting their intellect.


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## DaneMama

Foodie said:


> Cooking can produce new epitopes but meat meals are rendered separately and covalent modification is unlikely.


What is your point from this statement? This is a very vague statement. Epitopes could be the factor in eliciting the immune response that so many patients see as allergies (I honestly don't know what it is because I have found the cure to 99.9% of allergy cases, so I have no need to further up on it). So I see you assume that epitopes just disappear after the rendering process and don't actually enter the finished kibble product, what's the mechanism there? And what kind of covalent modification are we speaking of and why is it unlikely that it occurs? 

I would love to have a debate with you but you gotta give more to go on...not just some random, vague, blank comment. Explain your reasoning.


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## JayJayisme

Foodie said:


> Cooking can produce new epitopes but meat meals are rendered separately and covalent modification is unlikely.


Oh brother. Another academic snob who is going to let their advanced education do nothing but stand in the way of the real world and the real results that countless raw feeders have witnessed after switching their allergy-prone dogs to raw meat. 

The only scientists and doctors I trust are the ones who freely admit that what science knows today is but a tiny fraction of what there is to know. Sadly most academics, after spending piles of money on their advanced degrees, can't admit this. There are none so blind as those who will not see.


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## GermanSheperdlover

jdatwood said:


> Just out of curiosity, WHY would you want to include grains in your carnivores diet?


One of the best dog foods made today has grain in it and that would be California Naturals Herring and sweet potatoes..... Innova, Artemis, Instinct, Merrick, Fromm, Acana and Timberwolf are all excellent dog foods that contain grain. And I would feed those dog foods loooong before I would feed my dog RAW CHICKEN OR RAW EGGS......

_*EDITED BY RFD* ... THOSE BIG LETTERS REALLY ANNOY ME!_


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## jdatwood

GermanSheperdlover said:


> One of the best dog foods made today has grain in it and that would be California Naturals Herring and sweet potatoes..... Innova, Artemis, Instinct, Merrick, Fromm, Acana and Timberwolf are all excellent dog foods that contain grain. And I would feed those dog foods loooong before I would feed my dog RAW CHICKEN OR RAW EGGS......


That doesn't really answer the question I posed earlier.

WHY would you want to feed your carnivore grains??

This wasn't a question of RAW or KIBBLE or anything else. I simply asked why you would ever want to include grains.

Now if you'd like to bash raw I'd love to take that debate over to the proper forum. I would LOVE LOVE LOVE LOVE LOVE to hear why you'd prefer to knowingly feed inappropriate ingredients

See you over here... :wink: 
Raw Feeding - Dog Food Forum


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## buddy97

GermanSheperdlover said:


> One of the best dog foods made today has grain in it and that would be California Naturals Herring and sweet potatoes...... And I would feed those dog foods loooong before I would feed my dog RAW CHICKEN OR RAW EGGS......


really????...a dog food with barley and oatmeal as the likely primary ingredients and only 21% protein...how is than canine appropriate?

since dogs are designed to efficiently eat and utilize meat, the only kibbles i would even consider as upper line need to have a very good meat content (as kibbles go) which is going to transtlate into a higher protein %.

therefore, i consider any grain inclusive food at only 24% protein (or less in some cases), to be not only way too grain heavy but to be lacking severely in meat content and protein..

for this reason alone, i would never even place a grain inclusive food as "one of the best dog foods made." they dont even make the discussion.


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## ziggy29

GermanSheperdlover said:


> One of the best dog foods made today has grain in it and that would be California Naturals Herring and sweet potatoes..... ....
> ... And I would feed those dog foods loooong before I would feed my dog RAW CHICKEN OR RAW EGGS......


I don't see a food that's only 21% protein as "one of the best" for a carnivorous physiology. You could (and would) do far, far worse with most grocery store and big box pet store kibbles and CN has certainly helped some dogs with allergy problems. And while it's also good that the grains aren't corn and wheat, I have a problem calling a food with grains in it as "one of the best." One of the better grain-inclusive foods? Maybe. But that still doesn't make it one of the best overall. Not with grains and 21% protein. 

As for your feeding grains before raw chicken and raw eggs, do you base that on anything other than human concerns about bacteria (which are far less of a concern to dogs with much stronger stomach acids)? One problem some dog owners have in terms of canine nutrition is that they have trouble separating human nutrition and physiology with that of dogs.


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## kevin bradley

hmmmmmm, where has that RC character been as of late? :wink:


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## kevin bradley

ziggy29 said:


> One problem some dog owners have in terms of canine nutrition is that they have trouble separating human nutrition and physiology with that of dogs.



Word. 

Heck, I used to eat raw eggs when I was in my college meathead muscle building days. I probably ate dozens of them before my Mom saw me doing it one day and told me I was gonna die :wink:

There is certainly no issue w/ feeding a Raw diet. I have zero doubt there. My only point of contention is whether or not it is TRULY superior to a high quality kibble like Acana/Orijen.


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## ziggy29

kevin bradley said:


> My only point of contention is whether or not it is TRULY superior to a high quality kibble like Acana/Orijen.


I suspect it is (I supplement Orijen with raw from time to time and my dog seems to do just fine with that regimen, no stomach upset or soft stools or anything like that). But as I've said here a few times, either way your dog will be eating better than 98-99% of the dogs out there. Even if we are undecided on that point or unwilling/unable to commit to raw, we've already made the most important nutritional choices by getting away from the low quality, low protein, high grain junk kibble found in the grocery stores and the big chain pet stores.


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## magicre

it's fairly well known there is a correlation between processed food and diabetes in humans...as well as obesity.

whether the processed food is made by wolfgang puck or marie callender....is not at issue...they are both processed foods and incomplete.

how does feeding a dog lower quality kibble differ than feeding higher quality kibble? are the blueberries fresher before they are processed?
is the meat from grass fed cows who have never had an antibiotic.? where does the bone meal come from? what's in bone meal?

isn't bone meal comparable to white flour?

the processing process is what's wrong, not whether it costs more or comes from downer cows or caged vs. cage free chickens...

claimjumper frozen food is no better than lean cuisine...look at the ingredients...and then do a little google search on the process of processing...and what that does to ingredients.


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## ziggy29

magicre said:


> how does feeding a dog lower quality kibble differ than feeding higher quality kibble? are the blueberries fresher before they are processed?
> is the meat from grass fed cows who have never had an antibiotic.? where does the bone meal come from? what's in bone meal?
> 
> isn't bone meal comparable to white flour?
> 
> the processing process is what's wrong, not whether it costs more or comes from downer cows or caged vs. cage free chickens...


All else being equal -- unprocessed, fresh and uncontaminated "real" food is almost certain to be better than that same food after it's "processed." A fresh egg is better than "egg product." A raw chicken drumstick is probably better than baked chicken meal. A tomato is better than a cup of tomato juice or tomato sauce.

Having said that, I don't think every processing is equal. For example, if you take meat and cook it at 400 degrees Fahrenheit, you'll probably lose more nutrients than if you cooked it at 200. And not all processed foods have the same ingredients, and even when the same ingredients are used they may not be of identical quality. Some processed food may use more harmful ingredients than others. These are true whether we are talking about kibble or processed foods for human consumption. The thing is, we really don't know much about the processing of any given kibble, which is one factor (of several) that leads some people to PMR.


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## magicre

ziggy29 said:


> All else being equal -- unprocessed, fresh and uncontaminated "real" food is almost certain to be better than that same food after it's "processed." A fresh egg is better than "egg product." A raw chicken drumstick is probably better than baked chicken meal. A tomato is better than a cup of tomato juice or tomato sauce.
> 
> Having said that, I don't think every processing is equal. For example, if you take meat and cook it at 400 degrees Fahrenheit, you'll probably lose more nutrients than if you cooked it at 200. And not all processed foods have the same ingredients, and even when the same ingredients are used they may not be of identical quality. Some processed food may use more harmful ingredients than others. These are true whether we are talking about kibble or processed foods for human consumption. The thing is, we really don't know much about the processing of any given kibble, which is one factor (of several) that leads some people to PMR.


i think processing is just that. which is why it's called processing. 

if i take celery and carrots and run them through my juicer...it's certainly healthier than that crap they sell in stores..because they have to pasteurise and homogenise even if it is flashly done (is that a word?)

when a food is altered, it is processed.

when oat groats are turned into oats for oatmeal, they've been stripped of most of their goodness...

barley is useless because it's no longer in its original form. 

the same goes for wheat, and don't get me started on extruded corn...

you've pretty much made my debated point.

it is pretty well agreed upon that humans should not eat processed foods....or the least processed possible...

some, like me, carry it to its most literal meaning. i do not cook with flour, nor do i eat processed foods.

it is a treat for us to have pasta or cous cous....we do not eat anything in the way of grains but that's a whole different issue...

we do not eat starches because they are just that...starches...

the old meat and potato days are over....as is mac and cheese from a box...

why would it be any different for our dogs...?

even those who believe that kibble is fine.....and grains these days, seem to be on the outs....from what i'm reading, so manufacturers are throwing in barley and oats and quinoa and probably amaranth will be present one day because it's biblical....

these same people are feeding their dogs white potatos....they are high glycemic....not just for humans...for dogs, too....not good.

sweet potatoes...yeah, they have stuff in them, but nothing that can't be found elsewhere without the filler starch...they might be a lower glycemic food, they still aren't what fuels a dog..

i'm not trying to bring people over to the raw side...if i couldn't feed raw for whatever reason, i'd feed cooked....but let's see things for what it really is.

what i won't do is buy into the marketing anymore...and that's a problem...for both humans and dogs...

what advertising is saying is okay for us...quite frankly...is not okay for us...

smoothies are filled with blech....ingredients..they are high in soy and calories and blech....

processed foods are processed, which means they have moved away from their natural state..

if people can't bring themselves to feed raw, then give a dog a nice steak....don't feed cooked bones, because then you've got a vet bill the size of your house...

but at least feed unprocessed....that's what i'm saying...

because i don't know what bone meal is? is it the shavings off the floor?

is it processed bones from downer cows?

we as humans have complete dominion over our animals....our special special animals.....we have this power to choose what's best....and yet, we listen to what's come before....we do not look it up...we see our dogs eat kibble and their stools are okay, their fur looks okay....their teeth could be a little cleaner, so we pay for dentals....we deal with things that happen....and we have no idea that there is a plethora of information telling us we're being bamboozled..

i, for one, do not like being bamboozled....

processed is processed.

and, whilst i might drink tomato juice rather than eat the tomato, at least the product is processed only in that juice is extracted, as long as that is the only ingredient other than let's say citric acid....

...bone meal really bothers me....chicken bone meal, beef bone meal, salmon bone meal...it is so far from the original that it ceases to have any benefits that bone has....and the benefits of bone are enormous for dogs....

the ingredients for the premium dog foods still contain meal....and it doesn't say cooked at 200 degrees and then lovingly mortar and pestled....it goes through machinery....

and now that proctor and gamble have bought out the good ones....do you think they will build new factories just for 'that' food?

i'm sure that dick van patten had every good intention....yet, he now outsources to china....his caveat being that all foods are inspected...

halo, owned by ellen degeneres, who is also a real dog lover....puts soy in her canned food.

i may be one of the few who like cesar millan and you don't hear about his dog food anymore.....he feeds raw now..and kept daddy alive far longer than most pit bulls live...

just because hebrew national makes a cleaner, better hotdog, doesn't make it any better to eat....


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## buddy97

magicre said:


> i
> 
> how does feeding a dog lower quality kibble differ than feeding higher quality kibble?.


for me when i feed kibble, the difference between orijen and a lower quality grain inclusive food with 24% protein is simple...meat content. no, its certainly not the same as fresh raw at all, but there is certainly a difference between a kibble that is 70 % meat content vs one that is more grain than anything.


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## RawFedDogs

buddy97 said:


> but there is certainly a difference between a kibble that is 70 % meat content vs one that is more grain than anything.


What kibble is 70% meat?


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## buddy97

RawFedDogs said:


> What kibble is 70% meat?


Orijen. now, we can argue about the definition of meat or even the quality of the meat product that makes that up, but there will be no argument from me when comparing to raw meat , which i use for much of my dogs diet.

just contrasting that with a kibble that would be very grain heavy, 24% protein (pick one..there are tons of those).


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## Guest

meggels said:


> I know many people feel that grain free is the best way to go, but what are some of your opinions on some of the best foods out there that DO include grains? What makes you believe that these foods are some of the best?


Have you looked into Precise? Unfortunately at this point there is no grain free formula but since you are looking into grain-inclusive formulas, Precise is manufactured by Texas Farms which is a family-owned business. The Precise Plus line is decent. Years back, when I was involved with Greyhound rescue, a lot of the Greys were fed Precise Plus and did very well on it. (Greys are known for having very sensitive digestive systems). A friend's dog that has chronic diarrhea and sensitive stomach has improved greatly after being fed Precise Plus Lamb and Sweet Potato. I have not personally fed Precise to my dogs (because they are on grain-free kibble) but seeing good results from other dogs is a reason for me to recommend this brand to anyone looking for a grain-inclusive kibble that's not manufactured by Diamond, P&G, or such. 

Precise Pet Products


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## kevin bradley

you know what? I like the looks of this company(Precise).

Labbie,

They make their own food, right? Do they farm any of it out?


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## 3feathers

I have also heard good things on Precise Plus, but have never fed it.


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## Guest

kevin bradley said:


> you know what? I like the looks of this company(Precise).
> 
> Labbie,
> 
> They make their own food, right? Do they farm any of it out?


Here is what I got off the Precise web site regarding Texas Farms which is the manufacturer:

*May 19th, 2010 - Texas Farm Products Company received a SUPERIOR rating for its pet food manufacturing plant from the American Institute of Baking (AIB), a recognized monitor of human food manufacturers. All Precise dry formulas are created in this facility.

Texas Farm Products Company is one of a select number of pet food manufacturers to voluntarily have its facilities scrutinized by the AIB and its standards for human food grade production. Undergoing AIB inspections proves our commitment to ensure the quality of the pet foods we manufacture.

The criteria is established by combining good management principles including the Food, Drug, and Cosmetic Act; Good Manufacturing Practices; and the Federal Insecticide, Fungicide, and Rodenticide Act.

In its inspections, AIB evaluates food safety risks and compliance to the criteria in AIB standards in the following areas: adequacy of food safety program, pest control, operational methods and personnel practices, maintenance for food safety, and cleaning practices. A rating method is used to assign a numerical score and classification to the manufacturer.

Texas Farm Products Company conducts self-inspections of its facilities on a daily basis. The company created the position of AIB coordinator to manage its AIB program, a visible demonstration of Texas Farm Product Company’s commitment to producing quality products.

Texas Farm Products has a 100% safety record.
*


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## Unosmom

actually, dogs have no biological need for carbs


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## Tzubabies

Answering the original question. I think the best grain inclusive foods are Fromm 4 star and Blue Buffalo.


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## truthdog

The best grain inclusive foods are:

1) Annamaet
2) Dr. Tim's
3) Verus
4) Holistic Health Extension Black Bag
5) Precise
6) Eagle
7) Pro Plan Selects
8) Fromm Gold


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## Scarlett_O'

Seriously people this is from over a year ago.....I highly doubt meggels cares any more!:wink:


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## meggels

truthdog said:


> The best grain inclusive foods are:
> 
> 1) Annamaet
> 2) Dr. Tim's
> 3) Verus
> 4) Holistic Health Extension Black Bag
> 5) Precise
> 6) Eagle
> 7) Pro Plan Selects
> 8) Fromm Gold



ehhhh......



Abi lol you're right. After lots of research on the best grain inclusive food I've decided to feed Abbie Pedigree!


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## truthdog

meggels said:


> ehhhh......
> 
> 
> 
> Abi lol you're right. After lots of research on the best grain inclusive food I've decided to feed Abbie Pedigree!



It amazes me how a bunch of charlatans like Meggels can post like they do. Meggels you don't know **** about pet food.


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## meggels

truthdog said:


> It amazes me how a bunch of charlatans like Meggels can post like they do. Meggels you don't know **** about pet food.


That's ironic. I think a lot of people feel the same way about you...


What makes you say that? I rarely post about kibble lol. 


I mean really???? Pro Plan Selects??? Why would someone ever bother feeding a Purina food when they could get something from a much better company. Verus, I agree is a good grain inclusive food. Precise, I agree is good. I like Fromm's four star line and think they are a very good company.


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## DaneMama

Enough. Thread closed.


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