# Questions from a potential raw feeder



## veetiepony (Jan 10, 2012)

hello,

I was referred here from a horse forum because I have a few questions about feeding raw. I usually look at this site through my phone (which takes awhile), so I apologize if these questions have been addressed before. Forgive my ignorance. 

I've been looking through information about feeding raw for a few months now, and like everything else there are an endless amount of opinions on the matter. My opinion is that it makes perfect sense considering the diet of their wolf and wild counterparts. I understand you can feed a strict meat only diet, or with fruit and veggie extras. 

I have two dogs, both of whom are boxer crosses. Juno is about two and half and came to us semi-feral at six months. She is the single most picky eater I've ever met, which is surprising considering she came from the TN streets. Zilla is a year old and has no problem eating anything given to him, but he's not completely food obsessed. They are being fed mid-grade kibble right now. We've tried almost everything in the pet store to try to find a kibble Juno would eat on a regular basis, and she seems to prefer to eat once a day, and usually we have to add something tasty to get her to eat. She does not eat canned anymore because she would regularly leave it and it would be wasted. 
Zilla frequently has liquid(ish), and loose poop. It nothing serious, but we notice it a few times a week. Both have been checked by the vet for possible health issues, and both have been cleared. 
SO, I was thinking maybe feeding raw could alleviate these problems. And so finally, some questions.

I guess my first question is, just for curiosity can I give my dogs a chicken leg to see what they do with it? I'd like to see what Juno's reaction will be with raw food, and see if she gets excited about it. Would it be better to give her a small piece of chicken without the bone first? I've read some experiences where the dogs do not know what to do with raw food at first, and I'm not expecting them to be head over paws about it, but will it upset their systems if I just fed them a piece of raw chicken with their kibble tonight?

I've also read about hunger puking on this site, something that my dogs have never done. My dogs get fed twice a day (Juno usually just eats once, and usually not all of her food), so if they have no issues on kibble should I worry with raw?

I've seen endless videos and all the pictures on the picture thread on this board, but I'm still intimidated about giving my dogs large pieces of bone. I know, I know they say anything that they swallow they will not have issues with. Has anyone on here had choking issues? Are there choking issues if they throw it up? What about intestinal blocking? My dogs are no wolves.. 

(They sometimes get raw marrow bones (with attached meat) as treats, and they chew on the bones after they've chewed off the meat.)

I worry about my picky eater and leaving raw food out. If she doesn't eat it in the first meal, how long can it be stored in the fridge until the next try?

I've read on here a lot of dogs prefer chicken over beef or vice versa, so if my dog does not like a "staple", say chicken, or organs how can I make sure her nutritional bases are covered?

Stupid question, since the ratio is 80-10-10 does that mean a live chicken is 80% meat 10% bone and 10% organ? That is the ratio a wolf would get if he snuck into the chicken coop and ate a whole hen?

My dogs sneak into the chicken coop and steal eggs all the time. They're careful about transporting them and break open the eggs strategically so that the egg matter does not spill onto the ground. They then eat the shells. Since I know they like eggs, can they be a daily supplement (with or without a strict raw fed diet)?

And, what about blood? A wild canine will consume blood as part of a kill, which contains proteins, iron, potassium, salts, etc. Are these accounted for in a raw food diet, or are the benefits negligible? I don't know how much blood a chicken has, but but you have to figure the hen-snatcher is ingesting at least a cup of blood? I know the organs will contain some, but... (i know it's probably same with kibble as well)

What about older dogs with weaker teeth? I know their overall tooth health will be better on raw, but it made me nervous reading about breaking teeth...

What do your vets think about your dogs' diets? I imagine they must be pleased when they see the overall health of your dogs. I'd like to talk with my vet next time we see them, and hopefully she'll be on board. 

I know the process takes time, and research is your best friend. I have a feeling if I start this endeavor I'll become just as excited as everyone else is on this board! It's fascinating seeing the pictures, and the variety you can feed your dogs. I'd love to see my picky eater gain weight and my other boy to become more regular. 

Sorry this was so long, and I apologize if I posted in the wrong place, or repeated questions already posted on this board. I'm curious to hear everyone's thoughts, and hopefully encourage me to do this! Thanks for reading,

Kerry, Juno & Zilla


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## Steph (Jun 24, 2011)

Wowza! Lol, first off, YES!!! Throw away your kibble and give your dogs a chicken leg. I'd suggest starting with strictly chicken back and slowly introducing more meat and then add organ and so on until you;re at that 80:10:10 ratio. 

Don't worry about hunger puking. It's not somehting that should deter you from raw. My dogs don't do it. 

If you're worried about teeth problems, don't feed weight bearing bones like beef femurs and what not. Those will be the ones that will break teeth. 

Some vets frown on it, some don't. If your vet doesn't like it, find a new vet.

And as for the blood question.... I do not know. But its a good question and I look forward to hearing the thoughts from others  

Feeding raw really creates a stronger bond between you and your dog. I am proud to be a raw feeder


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## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

veetiepony said:


> I guess my first question is, just for curiosity can I give my dogs a chicken leg to see what they do with it? I'd like to see what Juno's reaction will be with raw food, and see if she gets excited about it. Would it be better to give her a small piece of chicken without the bone first? I've read some experiences where the dogs do not know what to do with raw food at first, and I'm not expecting them to be head over paws about it, but will it upset their systems if I just fed them a piece of raw chicken with their kibble tonight?
> 
> *You should give them a piece of chicken with the bone. What might upset their stomach is feeding it with dry food. Depending on your dog's size, a leg might be fine but if they are bigger you might try a quarter. Separate the dry and the raw by 12 hours. They digest at different rates.*
> 
> ...


hi there - i responded but I'm not a real expert since I've only been feeding raw since April. Some folks here have been doing it for years.

If you haven't seen this, you should take a look:

How to Get Started | Prey Model Raw


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## veetiepony (Jan 10, 2012)

Thanks for the replies, sorry about the long post! Im used to the long winded horsey message board


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## veetiepony (Jan 10, 2012)

Also, that link was what dog me interested in raw feeding as it was posted in the other site! Its very informative.


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## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

You should also take a look at this - myths about raw feeding. Because you will hear alot of this if you feed raw, and if you haven't read the real truth people can freak you out about it:

http://rawfed.com/myths/


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## Kat (Jul 12, 2011)

Im sure by the time Im done responding I will have missed some of your questions, but Ill try my best! 

Im new to raw, 5 months in. My pug does AMAZING on it, I switched her after she started having serious allergic reactions to her food. I was scared at first because of all the negative things people say about raw, my vet is highly against it too, so I still have not told them I am feeding raw. 

Like Steph said, as long as you dont feed weight bearing bones, they will be find. Chicken bones are so soft, they can crunch through them in no time. If a pug can do it, a boxer definitly can  

Ruby was kind of picky with kibble too, she would pretty much eat it because there was nothing else to eat. As soon as I switched to raw, she is SO excited for her meals. Whines, cries, jumps, and pretty much just goes crazy when she sees me washing her food dish. 

Ahh hunger pukes, Ruby had them everyday at 6am for about 1 week, but they go away, and each dog is different. Its because kibble takes longer to digest so the dog never feels truly hungry when they are fed kibble twice a day. Raw digests much faster so they get that hungry feeling. Its a pain to clean up, but nothing to worry about. 

I feed the blood with the meat, but there isnt really much blood when you buy from a grocery store. Nothing harmful about them eating it, and mine really seems to like it. 

Im not at eggs yet, but I dont think they would be a ''feed everyday'' type of thing. Maybe just once or twice a week, I could be wrong though. 

If you do decide on raw, it will honestly be the best thing you ever do for your dogs. Before starting raw, I was taking Ruby to the vet 1-3 times a month. I have not been to the vet since August now, which is AWESOME. Dont have to pick up poop anymore either, because it will dry up and pretty much crumble away within a few days.


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## veetiepony (Jan 10, 2012)

Kat- why is your vet against raw?

I looked at the myth page, and it was pretty amusing.
I like the article on backpacking with a raw fed dog, it was one of my questions I was saving for later 

Thanks!


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## Mondo (Dec 20, 2011)

veetiepony said:


> Kat- why is your vet against raw?


Very few vets are for raw. It's a conspiracy. No really, it is. 

Here is but one article on the subject:
Vet Truths & Lies


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## Kat (Jul 12, 2011)

They kept wanting me to do a vet prescribed diet for rubys food allergies and "sensitive" stomach. Even though both those problems were because of kibble. My vets main arguement was "look at wolves in the wild, they eat raw meat and they get sick and die". I also have a friend who is very against raw. When I first switched Ruby she was like ''im not going to stand by and watch you kill your dog''. I got scared, but after talking to people on this forum, I was ok again and I dont doubt or regret my decision to stick with raw. 

And I agree with mondo, vets are against it because then they dont make their vet diet sales and kibble companies miss out now that people are starting to smarten up and realize the benefits of raw.


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

after all is said and done, what do you feed your horses....?

certainly not processed kibble....right?

we feed what makes sense. food. real food. the kind of food that starts out looking like the protein it is.....raw the way carnivores need to eat.

after all the reading, all the discussion, the proof is looking at my dogs today vs. looking at them when they were eating kibble.....

two years later, my twelve year old dog looks younger...my pug has white teeth. that is unheard of...a pug with white teeth....they are calmer but have more energy. their next vet visit will only happen because i do blood panels once a year.

all because i feed raw.....my vet hates it, but can't argue with what he sees....he just has this barrier....it's okay. we've come to an agreement.

once you see what raw does, it won't matter whether there are studies or not.....you'll see. you'll believe.

welcome to the dark side LOL


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## monkeys23 (Dec 8, 2010)

veetiepony said:


> hello,
> 
> I was referred here from a horse forum because I have a few questions about feeding raw. I usually look at this site through my phone (which takes awhile), so I apologize if these questions have been addressed before. Forgive my ignorance.
> 
> ...


My replies in red.


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## Steph (Jun 24, 2011)

magicre said:


> after all is said and done, what do you feed your horses....?
> 
> certainly not processed kibble....right?
> 
> ...


Haha I love it!!!! People think I am literally a crazy person. People I work with just kind of ignore me when I talk about it. They ask questions sometimes like "don't they get sick" and other dumb questions. Today I went to the grocery store to buy some bones and they butcher lady asked me how often I give bones. So I told her that I feed raw and that I give them raw meat, bones, and organ daily. She thought I was totally crazy. It's funny, but also makes me sad because I think of all the poor kibble fed dogs out there


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## NewYorkDogue (Sep 27, 2011)

Mondo said:


> Very few vets are for raw. It's a conspiracy. No really, it is.
> 
> Here is but one article on the subject:
> Vet Truths & Lies


Ok... well now I am seriously depressed after reading through that article. Not that I was in any way naive before, but I had no idea the sense of overall corruption that was so entrenched in the profession.

And, sad to say, my vet does not support feeding raw... so I don't discuss it with him. Yet, he is very impressed with my dog's health, growth, and overall condition. He is very much "old school", and pushes kibble like a lot of other vets. I would love to find a holistic vet in the area-- (the best thing about my vet now is that he is exactly 2 blocks from my apartment.)


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## veetiepony (Jan 10, 2012)

Monkey - she's fed for about 15 min until we have to pick it up, because the other dog will eat it. That's the first suggestion everyone makes 



I've read here and other places people regularly give weight bearing bones as a chew thing. so is this a yes or a no?

Horses generally eat hay and grain. Some breeds of horses are so derived from being wild horses they need extra calorie help, depending in part by the climate in which they live. Strict grass feeding a horse like in the wild is just not applicable with some breeds, and most of the time just out of the question economically.


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## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

NewYorkDogue said:


> Ok... well now I am seriously depressed after reading through that article. Not that I was in any way naive before, but I had no idea the sense of overall corruption that was so entrenched in the profession.
> 
> And, sad to say, my vet does not support feeding raw... so I don't discuss it with him. Yet, he is very impressed with my dog's health, growth, and overall condition. He is very much "old school", and pushes kibble like a lot of other vets. I would love to find a holistic vet in the area-- (the best thing about my vet now is that he is exactly 2 blocks from my apartment.)


that article is spot on. My vet works for another woman, and she cannot "officially" condone raw. Nor can she approve not vaccinating regularly. 

However, since we have become close over several years together, she "unofficially" tells me that raw is great. And that my dogs will never need another vaccine. 

just could never say that she told me that to her boss!


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

veetiepony said:


> Monkey - she's fed for about 15 min until we have to pick it up, because the other dog will eat it. That's the first suggestion everyone makes
> 
> 
> 
> ...


well, horses are herbivores.....although it might not have been my best analogy. i really made a crappy batch of juice today....lots of hard work, loss of brain cells....

dogs are carnivores.....they eat meat and it's a need, not a preference, i believe....

we try to talk people out of giving weight bearing bones...unless it's the leg of a chicken or quail or light weight...but not the weight bearing bones of cattle or bison or elk or moose......

we try to figure out what is species appropriate, which is a loaded term....are humans omnivores or carnivores? some are vegans...some only eat grain....and herbs.

but dogs? dogs eat meat.


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

NewYorkDogue said:


> Ok... well now I am seriously depressed after reading through that article. Not that I was in any way naive before, but I had no idea the sense of overall corruption that was so entrenched in the profession.
> 
> And, sad to say, my vet does not support feeding raw... so I don't discuss it with him. Yet, he is very impressed with my dog's health, growth, and overall condition. He is very much "old school", and pushes kibble like a lot of other vets. I would love to find a holistic vet in the area-- (the best thing about my vet now is that he is exactly 2 blocks from my apartment.)


one of the things i admire about you is your ability to find what you think your dog needs...remember in the beginning you didn't think you knew which way was up?

you may not find a holistic vet....but you can and should either find a vet you can trust or a vet you can at least talk to. food is part of our health profile.

my vet is not pro raw, yet i talk to him anyway so he knows a belly ache or tenderness in the intestines is not ibd or ibs or colitis or any of the other kibble problems, right?


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## Steph (Jun 24, 2011)

veetiepony said:


> Monkey - she's fed for about 15 min until we have to pick it up, because the other dog will eat it. That's the first suggestion everyone makes
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I do. BUT I understand it can cause tooth breakage. So I check for breakage a lot in my dogs teeth. I have bullies so pretty much anything weaker than a weight bearing bone is going to get crushed and eaten pretty quick. Since I give a bone daily, I have to give bones than cannot be consumed completely otherwise they'd be getting way too much bone in their diet.


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## NewYorkDogue (Sep 27, 2011)

magicre said:


> one of the things i admire about you is your ability to find what you think your dog needs...remember in the beginning you didn't think you knew which way was up?
> 
> you may not find a holistic vet....but you can and should either find a vet you can trust or a vet you can at least talk to. food is part of our health profile.
> 
> my vet is not pro raw, yet i talk to him anyway so he knows a belly ache or tenderness in the intestines is not ibd or ibs or colitis or any of the other kibble problems, right?


Thank you. Yes, I agree-- best to be open about these things. Yet, despite the fact that I have a family (and extended) chock full of physicians, I am fairly reticent to go to the doctor myself (would rather take care of problems holistically, et. al.) and take the medical route only when absolutely necessary (emergencies and such.) This trait has somewhat transferred over to my dog as well. 

And after reading that article, I must admit that I don't have the most trusting relationship with my vet, and that is sad. I would like to find a vet that I am comfortable with... even if it is more of an inconvenience for me in terms of location.

Will add this to my intentions for 2012...


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## bridget246 (Oct 26, 2011)

Mondo said:


> Very few vets are for raw. It's a conspiracy. No really, it is.


Not really. It is the same with human doctors. I recently pulled both my hamstrings and jacked up my pelvis. If I would have went to the doctors they were have gave me some pain pills and muscle relaxers and sent me home. Instead I went to the chiropractor who actually knew what to do. He put my bones back into place so they can heal correctly. Vets shouldn't be recommending food in the same way that doctors shouldn't. For food people usually go to a nutritionist.


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## Mondo (Dec 20, 2011)

bridget246 said:


> Not really. It is the same with human doctors. I recently pulled both my hamstrings and jacked up my pelvis. If I would have went to the doctors they were have gave me some pain pills and muscle relaxers and sent me home. Instead I went to the chiropractor who actually knew what to do. He put my bones back into place so they can heal correctly. Vets shouldn't be recommending food in the same way that doctors shouldn't. For food people usually go to a nutritionist.


Well,we'll just have to agree to disagree here. McDonald's doesn't write the books for doctor's "nutrition" classes. 

So I agree in part. But Hill's Science Diet contributes big bucks to Veterinary Associations in Canada and the US. I go to my local vet and the shelves are packed with Hill's Science diet product. 

My doctor doesn't sell me junk food under the guise of "health". 

Although yeah, some of them do push the "magic pill" more than they should.


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## Steph (Jun 24, 2011)

\


bridget246 said:


> Not really. It is the same with human doctors. I recently pulled both my hamstrings and jacked up my pelvis. If I would have went to the doctors they were have gave me some pain pills and muscle relaxers and sent me home. Instead I went to the chiropractor who actually knew what to do. He put my bones back into place so they can heal correctly. Vets shouldn't be recommending food in the same way that doctors shouldn't. For food people usually go to a nutritionist.


Yea I'll have to disagree with this as well. I don't know anyone who goes to a nutritionist. When you have a baby, who tells you what to feed it and when? The doctor. My dad just was in the hospital for pancreatitis and the doctor told him he had to change his diet and what to change it to.


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## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

If doctors accept paybacks for prescribing a company's drugs, they are likely to lose their license. Of course, pharma companies do offer perks etc. but it is highly illegal and has resulted in some of the biggest fines and penalties in corporate history.

Vets are encouraged to prescribe certain foods FOR a large profit. 

Big difference.


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## schtuffy (May 17, 2010)

First off, welcome!

Secondly...it looks like you've gotten a bunch of great suggestions and responses so far already, so I'll just chime in briefly about my own experiences :smile:

I didn't start feeding my dog 100% raw right off the bat, because I was like a lot of prospective raw feeders...hesitant and not fully convinced, not to mention worried. How your dogs respond will really depend on the dog...it looks like they are young and have eaten a variety of things, so chances are things won't be disastrous. I started off by fasting my dog for 12 hours and then giving him a chicken wing with the skin taken off. He did fine, aside from the fact that it took him 45 mins to figure out how to eat it :wink: From then on I would feed raw a couple times a week, always separated from his kibble meals by 8-12 hours. As I did more research I got tired of all that and just went all in...it's been over a year and I don't regret it one bit!

I'm also lucky enough to have a vet who supports not only raw, but PMR. I had a bloodwork panel done for Louis' 2nd birthday, which coincided with 1 year on PMR and his results came back with flying colors. As others have said, 80-10-10 is just a guideline you strive for over time. Much like how we humans try to eat a good ratio of meat, grains, vegetables, fruits, etc. in our diet. And of course, variety is key. I use chicken as a base for boney cuts, but incorporate as many types of meat you can find. 

Good luck! It's always so exciting when someone wants to consider raw :smile:


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## Caty M (Aug 13, 2010)

No, Mcdonald's doesn't write the nutrition books for medical students.. BUT they ARE based off the USDA food pyramid, which is horrid in itself, recommending the largest portion of food to be grains which are unnecessary in our diet.. Kind of convenient that meat, dairy and grain are heavily pushed.. which are the three largest profit making farming industries in the world. It SHOULD be veggies, then fruits, then meats.


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