# Been down this road before, gave up; considering trying again.



## cmac (Jun 22, 2017)

Hello!

I was on this forum a few years ago, and I had my small dog on raw for about a year and a half. I took him off of it and put him back on kibble/wet food because, ultimately, he just wasn't dong well. His teeth looked fantastic, of course, but his coat was dull, energy never really increased, etc. I've had him on commercial frozen raw (Stella & Chewy's and Instinct) for about a year, and he's doing very well. He had a dental not too long ago. His coat looks nice for the first time in the almost 7 years I've had him (he's going on 11). The problem is...he won't eat it anymore. None of it. There's not a single flavor he likes anymore. 

I just switched one of my cats to a raw diet, and the cat seems to be doing okay so far (still tweaking my "recipe"). I accidentally bought a 2 lb. tub of ground, bone-in beef from My Pet Carnivore, and my dog is obsessed with it. It's all he'll eat now. 

The problem is...I really don't think it fits the 80/10/5/5 standard, and I've been scared off raw feeding "from scratch" since I was clearly doing something wrong last time, despite months of reading, a variety of protein and organ sources, etc. There's also no way that the beef has everything he needs in it. The raw diet I'm feeding my cat includes a supplement called Alnutrin, and requires extra fish oil on top of that. 

*Has anyone had luck with the My Pet Carnivore mixes? Is there a particular protein source that's naturally closer the 80/10/10 scale than another?* I use the numbers listed on the Hare today site and assume that MPC can't be too far off. It seems like a ground beef mix might be the closest thing (80% meat, 7% tripe, 7% organ, 6% bone). Llama is also close, but is expensive, and not readily available through MPC all the time. I prefer MPC to anything else because their warehouse is about 10 minutes from my work. 

I know there's a lot of anti-ground mix chatter out there, and trust me, I absolutely understand the health benefits of RMBs, but my dog is flat out refusing to chew up even chicken necks or wing tips. I'm probably going to post over in the heath board with a few questions, because it really seems like he's been showing his age recently, and the refusal to chew up chicken necks when he used to love powering through pork ribs is one of those signs to me. 

*Is it possible that a ground mix could contain everything he needs? If not, is there a supplement I could add to the diet that would make it balanced? *

Thanks for any help!


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## naturalfeddogs (Jan 6, 2011)

I wouldn't use one grind only. You need to rotate proteins. In fact, I wouldn't feed ground solely, period. Even if they claim to have bone and organ mixed in. The more variety you can feed the better. That's the point of raw, feeding variety over time. The whole 80/10/10 thing is just a guide. It's not the Bible, and some dogs do better with more or less of some things. A person somewhere, who is/was in the kibble industry came up with it. 

Some ground is fine, but the benefits come from feeding whole chunks of meat/bone/organ.


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## cmac (Jun 22, 2017)

I would definitely rotate proteins-- my dog is just not a fan of poultry. He used to be...when I first tried raw, he ate a lot of turkey, chicken, and quail. He's been rotating between beef and venison, and I'm thinking that might be why he's turning his nose up at chicken. 

MPC offers alpaca, llama, beaver, beef, bison, chicken, duck, emu, fish, goat, mutton, muskrat, pork, and rabbit in "whole prey" grinds, as well as a ton of varieties of whole and ground organ, and tripe. Varieties of proteins isn't really the issue, luckily (although my bank account says otherwise). 

I understand that the raw feeders on this site are very anti-ground, but:

1.) I lack the freezer space and do not have space to get a chest freezer, 
2.) my dog is not comfortable eating bones that are not extremely smashed up, and 
3.) he did not do well on what I thought was a well-balanced rotation last time (I used input from members of this site to create that rotation).

He is an almost 11-year-old, 11 lb. rescue with a history of cracked teeth. He is doing very well on commercial frozen raw, which is far more ground up than anything MPC sells (it's coarse ground-- the bone and organ pieces are clearly visible), so I'm looking to stay on mostly ground and supplement with smashed up chicken necks, beef tracheas, etc.

Unlike cats, I can't find much info on raw supplements for dogs, despite it making sense that if a cat-- the epitome of an obligate carnivore-- benefits from supplementation in raw food, then a dog likely would, too. I'm just looking for some guidance in that aspect.


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## OldGnarlHead (Feb 17, 2016)

It seems like your set on ground, which I also don't agree with long-term. 
On the chest freezer note, they do make ones that are very small, like three cubic feet. It will be easier to feed raw when your food is not ground, because you wont have to be constantly ordering from MPC or RFM.
On the supplement note, as long as you feed a variety of foods there is zero reason to supplement, which is another reason I would not feed ground. You can't control what's in it and you get less variety meaning you have to feed more proteins. If something isn't working for your dog you aren't able to pinpoint exactly what it is and mediate it so that you don't end up frustrated and at wits-end with raw feeding.


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## naturalfeddogs (Jan 6, 2011)

cmac said:


> I would definitely rotate proteins-- my dog is just not a fan of poultry. He used to be...when I first tried raw, he ate a lot of turkey, chicken, and quail. He's been rotating between beef and venison, and I'm thinking that might be why he's turning his nose up at chicken.
> 
> MPC offers alpaca, llama, beaver, beef, bison, chicken, duck, emu, fish, goat, mutton, muskrat, pork, and rabbit in "whole prey" grinds, as well as a ton of varieties of whole and ground organ, and tripe. Varieties of proteins isn't really the issue, luckily (although my bank account says otherwise).
> 
> ...


Why do yo feel like you need to supplement? If you feed a variety of proteins, and add edible bones and organ, there is no need to supplement. Fish oil maybe, but that would be it.


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## OtherGuy (Nov 30, 2016)

cmac said:


> Hello!
> 
> I was on this forum a few years ago, and I had my small dog on raw for about a year and a half. I took him off of it and put him back on kibble/wet food because, ultimately, he just wasn't dong well. His teeth looked fantastic, of course, but his coat was dull, energy never really increased, etc. I've had him on commercial frozen raw (Stella & Chewy's and Instinct) for about a year, and he's doing very well. He had a dental not too long ago. His coat looks nice for the first time in the almost 7 years I've had him (he's going on 11). The problem is...he won't eat it anymore. None of it. There's not a single flavor he likes anymore.
> 
> ...


Welcome (back)!

While I don't feed pre-ground, I also don't believe in making the perfect the enemy of the good. And you have many compelling reasons to use a pre-ground. An 11 year old dog with a history of cracked teeth will be better off eating a pre-ground raw than being on a kibble diet. I think your reasoning is sound.

I also part company with my fellow poster who says 80/10/10 is "just a guide," as this ratio provides the 1.2:1 Calcium to Phosphorus ratio that is near-universally accepted as ideal for canine nutrition. Maintaining this proper mineral ratio is critical, as imbalances can lead to serious health issues on either side of that imbalance.

I'm no expert with MPC's offering, but I see they have whole ground chicken available (bone included). That would—despite a note they have on that page saying whole prey is about 10-15% bone, which is true of some prey, but not chicken—give you about 30% bone.

So if you served 1/3 ground chicken with 2/3 of one of their boneless mixes, you'd be right in the ballpark.

You could mix up the proteins in the boneless mixes.

The dog will lose some dental benefits, while also not having to chew with cracked teeth.

Not a bad compromise under your circumstances if you ask me.

Bill


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## cmac (Jun 22, 2017)

naturalfeddogs said:


> Why do yo feel like you need to supplement? If you feed a variety of proteins, and add edible bones and organ, there is no need to supplement. Fish oil maybe, but that would be it.


If cats require supplementation, what's the thinking behind dogs not also needing it? The raw-fed cat community is adamant that an unbalanced diet can sicken or kill cats, which is absolutely true...and it makes sense to me that an unbalanced diet could do the same to dogs, which is what I think began happening last time. As all dogs are different, I think that my boy needs something else in his diet. I'm not a nutritionist, or a vet, so I don't know what it is-- but I'd like to cover all the same bases I'm covering with my cat by adding Alnutrin (sans the extra taurine). What's the reasoning behind dogs not needing the same?



OldGnarlHead said:


> It seems like your set on ground, which I also don't agree with long-term.
> On the chest freezer note, they do make ones that are very small, like three cubic feet. It will be easier to feed raw when your food is not ground, because you wont have to be constantly ordering from MPC or RFM.
> On the supplement note, as long as you feed a variety of foods there is zero reason to supplement, which is another reason I would not feed ground. You can't control what's in it and you get less variety meaning you have to feed more proteins. If something isn't working for your dog you aren't able to pinpoint exactly what it is and mediate it so that you don't end up frustrated and at wits-end with raw feeding.


I have no space in the house for a chest freezer, have no garage, have no outlets on the back porch to plug one in, and my basement floods every time it rains (we've gone through two dryers and a water heater). Cons of living in a tiny house built in the 50s, hillbilly-style. The yard is a generous four acres of meadow and woods, but the house itself feels like the size of a thimble. 

I fed what I believed was a large variety of foods last time, and was very careful to maintain an 80/10/10 ratio. Pork, goat, beef, chicken, turkey, quail, venison, rabbit, fish, and lamb were all on the menu. After a year, when my dog was going downhill rather than up and I couldn't figure out why, he went off of it. 


OtherGuy said:


> Welcome (back)!
> 
> While I don't feed pre-ground, I also don't believe in making the perfect the enemy of the good. And you have many compelling reasons to use a pre-ground. An 11 year old dog with a history of cracked teeth will be better off eating a pre-ground raw than being on a kibble diet. I think your reasoning is sound.
> 
> ...


Hello, Bill!

It's my understanding that a bone-in mix of beef, rabbit, or pork would be much closer to the ideal bone percentage, and that poultry/fowl in general have more bones in the mixes. Mixing bone-in with boneless is definitely doable. My aim is to stay within the 80/10/10 ratio. I'm placing an order with MPC today...I'll probably start with another beef mix, since he loves that one so much. Here are the ingredients, as listed on their website:

"This coarse ground mix contains: 20% Wisen/Gullet, 20% Short Ribs, 10% Liver & Kidney, 10% Heart, 40% Lean Beef Meat (80% lean)." 

I thought I could add some boneless pork to this to make it more even (looks like the muscle meat total % is ~70%). 

While I completely understand that he will lose some dental benefits, I do brush his teeth every night, along with giving him an OraVet chew. The chews contain the same anti-plaque agent used for human coma patients. His breath hasn't gotten stinky again since his dental a couple of months ago, and he acts like the chews are the best thing on the planet, so hopefully between the brushing and the OraVet, he can maintain some degree of dental health. 

I appreciate you trying to offer advice while working with my restrictions!


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## naturalfeddogs (Jan 6, 2011)

cmac said:


> If cats require supplementation, what's the thinking behind dogs not also needing it? The raw-fed cat community is adamant that an unbalanced diet can sicken or kill cats, which is absolutely true...and it makes sense to me that an unbalanced diet could do the same to dogs, which is what I think began happening last time. As all dogs are different, I think that my boy needs something else in his diet. I'm not a nutritionist, or a vet, so I don't know what it is-- but I'd like to cover all the same bases I'm covering with my cat by adding Alnutrin (sans the extra taurine). What's the reasoning behind dogs not needing the same?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Cats don't require supplements if they are fed a raw diet with variety. The thing with cats that makes them more difficult to feed raw, is that they can be difficult to get started on raw. The younger they are the easier it is, AND you must be sure they are getting a good source of taurine. But, assuming they are eating variety fine, they don't need supplementing. Our cat has been on 100% raw from a kitten. Never a supplement.


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## cmac (Jun 22, 2017)

While it's great that your cats are doing well without supplementation, my raw fed boy is not keen on variety, and I'd rather be safe than sorry with him. 

I bought 2 lbs. of ground beef supreme and 2 lbs. of green beef tripe. Everything I'm reading says that tripe can be fed as a regular muscle meat. 

Would it be appropriate to use that to "dilute" the bone percentage?


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## naturalfeddogs (Jan 6, 2011)

Not sure what you mean by using tripe to "dilute" the bone?

And yes, cats are picky and can be difficult to feed raw too. That's why I mentioned starting them on it as young as possible. The older they are, the more difficult they can be.


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## cmac (Jun 22, 2017)

The bone percentage is around 20% right now; I would do calculations to figure out how much boneless meat/tripe would be added to get that down to 10% overall. Dilute probably wasn't the right word, but it was the only one that popped in my head at the time :tongue1:

Mrowmrow is 9 years old. He's significantly less picky overall than my new rescue kitten, Keegan, who is about 10 months old and begins to distress-cry anytime he's given anything but kibble. Wet food, raw food, canned tuna, sardines, cooked chicken, cooked beef, cooked eggs, raw eggs...he either dismisses it entirely, or begins to cry and tries to cover it like it actually belongs in his litter box. I'm on week 3 of trying to transition to raw/wet (at this point, I'll take either one), and if he can see it or smell it underneath kibble, he refuses to eat anything in the bowl. I'm still trying to mix 1/4 tsp into his dry food, and it's been unsuccessful thus far. He was very underweight when I got him, so it's been a battle to try and limit his kibble to encourage eating other things while also increasing his weight.


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## OtherGuy (Nov 30, 2016)

cmac said:


> If cats require supplementation, what's the thinking behind dogs not also needing it? The raw-fed cat community is adamant that an unbalanced diet can sicken or kill cats, which is absolutely true...and it makes sense to me that an unbalanced diet could do the same to dogs, which is what I think began happening last time. As all dogs are different, I think that my boy needs something else in his diet. I'm not a nutritionist, or a vet, so I don't know what it is-- but I'd like to cover all the same bases I'm covering with my cat by adding Alnutrin (sans the extra taurine). What's the reasoning behind dogs not needing the same?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Greetings back,

I saw some boneless mixes. If they have 7% bone meat mixes, you could supplement those by mixing in some of the whole chicken mix. I would treat the chicken mix as if it is 30% bone (it will be about that, perhaps a little higher) and do the math.

Curious they don't make an 80/10/10 mix.

Bill


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## OtherGuy (Nov 30, 2016)

cmac said:


> While it's great that your cats are doing well without supplementation, my raw fed boy is not keen on variety, and I'd rather be safe than sorry with him.
> 
> I bought 2 lbs. of ground beef supreme and 2 lbs. of green beef tripe. Everything I'm reading says that tripe can be fed as a regular muscle meat.
> 
> Would it be appropriate to use that to "dilute" the bone percentage?


Green tripe has very close to a 1 to 1 Calcium to Phosphorus mix, unlike straight meat (which runs high in Phosphorus). So is almost a "neutral" that (nearly) doesn't count in the meat to bone percentages. I hope that wording makes sense. I'm tired.

My (non-expert) understanding about Cats is they need a good supply of Taurine, so feeding things like beef heart is critical.

Bill (dog guy)


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## badapple23 (Jun 21, 2017)

Hi cmac, I supplement. Have you heard of Green Juju for Dogs? It's pricey but you've got a small dog. Also, have you ever considered Raw Goat's Milk? And I know a lot of people who supplement with kelp for teeth (pretty much Plaque Off). I don't use it because my dog chews on bones. I'm new to the forum and this is my first post. Hope I'm doing this right.


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## OldGnarlHead (Feb 17, 2016)

I think that neither cats nor dogs need to be supplemented with anything if they're fed a varied enough diet. How would wild cats/wolves survive otherwise?


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## naturalfeddogs (Jan 6, 2011)

OldGnarlHead said:


> I think that neither cats nor dogs need to be supplemented with anything if they're fed a varied enough diet. How would wild cats/wolves survive otherwise?


This exactly.....but with cats, they can be difficult and sometimes they need it due to their picky ways. You can't use the "tough love" approach that you can with dogs, meaning not doing the whole offer a protein, and take it up until the next meal if they don't eat sort of thing.


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## OldGnarlHead (Feb 17, 2016)

Yes, true. The fatty liver thing. We would just cover our cat's raw food in a little wet food or 'marinate' her food in the wet food to get her to eat it. If you really can't get a cat to eat heart, then supplementation is necessary.


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## cmac (Jun 22, 2017)

I have neither a wild cat, nor a wolf. I have an 8 lb. Russian blue mix and an 11 lb. chihuahua/JRT mix, both of which are hundreds of years removed from their ancestors. 

I get that you guys don't believe in supplementation, but I don't get that you seem to be so terribly anti-supplementation-- something that would only ensure an animal is getting ALL the proper nutrients-- especially considering I explained that my dog did not do well on it before. Why risk a senior dog's health based on your assumption that every dog is exactly the same in regards to nutritional needs?? 

As my dog refuses to chew bones, and he is small enough that going without multiple meals will cause him to vomit bile, I can't really "tough love" him either. He ONLY wants ground raw beef at this time, which means that a rotation isn't possible, which drags me right back to needing to supplement him. 

He's now gone over 48 hours refusing to eat anything but tripe, because I only had pork, rabbit, and chicken to offer. I'm not comfortable trying to "tough love" this out. 

It's the same with my cat-- he will not eat any organs besides heart, thus necessitating the supplementation. No amount of wet food mixed in, tuna mixed in, etc. will get him to eat it. He only wants chicken.


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## naturalfeddogs (Jan 6, 2011)

There were posts mentioned above on times that supplements are needed... But on the average, yes a diet with a variety of raw meat/ bone/organ is complete, everything is supplied and supplements are not needed.

Im not a huge cat person, but as far as dogs are concerned, they share 99% of the same DNA as a wolf. They are different on the outside, but everything from their teeth all the way through digestion is exactly the same. They don't supplement in the wild and their diet is probably less varied than what we feed our dogs.


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## naturalfeddogs (Jan 6, 2011)

I had a thought after reading back through your original post- how many vaccines has this dog had, and how long ago were ones?


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## OldGnarlHead (Feb 17, 2016)

Yeah, I've read somewhere that some taxonomists are considering reclassifying dogs as _Canis lupis_ instead of _Canis lupis familiaris_. They are so close that all dogs and all wolves can still interbreed and produce viable (meaning able to reproduce further) offspring, which is one of the major components of defining a species. You need to remember that cats and dogs as they exist now have survived for a long, long time without supplementation. Commercial dog food is a modern invention. 

Think of it this way, if you supplement when you are already feeding a nutritionally complete diet, you can potentially feed too much and lead to toxicity in certain vitamins. 

I understand you care and worry for your pets and their safety, but most people overthink it. Deficiencies take a long, long time to manifest, and if you feed enough of a variety of proteins and cuts, there is pretty much no way you can run into that problem.


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