# arthritis from too much protein?



## yeastydawg (Oct 24, 2010)

Hi, I'm a newbie, and I'd like some advice, since I can't seem to find a vet who advocates raw feeding. 
My four-year old male cocker spaniel has been eating meat, bones, organ meat, eggs and supplements like omega 3 fish oil, probiotics, virgin coconut oil. I used to give him veggies and fruits since he likes them, but this is a dog who's really predisposed to malassezia skin infections so anything that's yeast-friendly--carbs, veggies--will make his yeast go into overdrive again. We've battled his skin problems for so long (he used to be partly bald, with itchy, crusty skin) and the raw diet seemed to be the only thing that worked for him. Now he just has one yeasty spot on his neck, but his fur has grown out beautifully. 

The problem now is he seems to be suffering from arthritis. On some days, he limps pretty badly, one foreleg raised. He doesn't want to climb up the stairs, and can't seem to land very well from high steps. On other days, he's just fine, can walk and run. No history of trauma recently, so we don't think it's a sprain or anything. 

We're waiting for his tests results to come back, and the vet said we might be feeding him too much with protein, which she says makes his uric acid shoot up and give him arthritis. She also added that a diet too rich in protein will increase the possibility of him getting gallstones.

Anyone out there experience this? I'm so anxious. Am I making things worse for him by what I'm feeding? Maybe I'm getting the proportions wrong? Please help.


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## whiteleo (Sep 7, 2008)

Tell us alittle more about how much your dog weighs and how much a day your feeding. What are you feeding on a weekly basis.


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## Eurobox (May 17, 2010)

I have heard of Raw fed dogs getting Gout, maybe he has this? I am not a raw feeder, so hopefully someone with more experience will speak up... 

Do you use Apple Cider Vinegar to treat his yeast flare ups?


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## whiteleo (Sep 7, 2008)

The protein level in a PMR diet runs about 24% so not a real high protein level compared to many kibbles out there.


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## wags (Jan 31, 2009)

Wow! Thats sad! I feed kibble and the protein level is from 34% and up. My one dog has arthritis in her back hip joint and its hereditary. The vet didnt say it had anything at all to do with protien levels in foods. So this is news to me about the protien level in the food being involved. And I feed all 4 dogs and only one has it. My chocolate lab. she was not putting wieght on her one leg. Shes on gluchosimine chondrotine with msm 1000mg daily, fish oil, vit E, and tramadol. also I have recovery sa which I do give my 8 year old yellow lab! Shes doing great now! Oh and she has lost appx. 15 lbs. wnet from 88 lbs. to 73. This has also helped tremendously. She needs to loose a few more and we are at a plateau!


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## yeastydawg (Oct 24, 2010)

Thanks for your replies; we still have to wait a little for the test results, but I'll ask about the possibility of gout. I'm upset at the fact that my boy is only 4 but could have walking difficulties from hereon. 

He weighs 14 kilos, and is very nicely filled out. He is fed twice a day. He always gets a mixture of ground beef or pork, and a quarter of a cup of organ meat per feeding. I don't weigh his food, but he consumes under 1/2 kilo of meat a day. He gets his pork or beef bones before every feeding. I just feed him a small meaty bone because he can't really finish a big one. Every other day he gets an egg. Every feeding he's given 1000mg of Solgar's fish oil, 1 teaspoon of virgin coconut oil, and 1 acidophilus capsule. I also give him Seargent's dog vitamins daily (more for my own peace of mind)

I used to give him ACV but I didn't see any effect on his yeast with it, so I discontinued. From olive oil I switched to virgin coconut and I see more improvement on his skin. 

I want to try giving him kefir, and maybe some fermented veggies, also fruits since he really begs for them, but every time he eats fruit or veggies, he starts to scratch himself raw soon after. 

I'm resigned to the fact that his yeast will keep on recurring, and we have to manage it for the rest of his life, but in saving his skin I'm worried I might be damaging his health in other ways--giving him arthritis or gout.


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## yeastydawg (Oct 24, 2010)

The vet wants me to feed him Royal Canin. :frown:


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## cprcheetah (Jul 14, 2010)

My chihuahua Zoey has had arthritis in her knees & tail since she was 18 months old. She has been raw fed for almost 4 months now, and just had full body x-rays on friday (for something else) and the combo of raw feeding & glucosamine/chondroitin her arthritis isn't as 'inflammed' as it was in her previous x-rays (back in July before she had knee surgery). I know my husband has gout and his Dr told him to avoid a lot of red meats, processed meats, and not too much offal because they cause an increase in uric acid. Aspirin can also increase uric acid. However, I've worked for a vet for 20+ years and don't think I've ever seen a case of a dog with gout.

So he gets bones before every feeding? Are his poops okay? Has he ever had his thyroid levels checked? Cockers are prone to low thyroid & allergies both of which can cause yeast overgrowth in their skin.


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## whiteleo (Sep 7, 2008)

I had to go to the conversion site to do the math as I don't know kilos but it looks like your dog is about 31 lbs and you are feeding just over a pound of food a day. Am I correct? 

If I am, then I would say you are over feeding as a 30lb dog should be getting roughly about 1/2 to 3/4 lb a food a day. I also think you might be giving too much organs as they should only be about 10% of the dogs total diet. This definitely could be causing issues of overloading in the richness dept.

Are there added ingredients in the ground meats you are feeding? I would definitely read through some or all of the raw feeding sites here and read as much info about how some of us do it and then ask as many question as possible, I hope I have helped a little. Good Luck!


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## Eurobox (May 17, 2010)

"Studies are now showing that very diluted amounts of AppleCiderVinegar in a dogs food and water does help alleviate Canine gout over a period of time and lowers the ph levels which is a huge benefit.
The use of Emu oil from Australia also seems to help reduce swelling, but check with your vet before going ahead with this form of inflammation reduction."

Also, when you used the ACV for his yeast, did you buy the organic type with the sediment in the bottom? If it was the normal ACV that is processed, all of the good enzymes have been removed. I add a small amount to my boys water daily, and apply it to any yeasty areas in a diluted mixture of 50/50 ACV and water. 

I have heard that Olive Leaf extract is good for yeast as well.


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## yeastydawg (Oct 24, 2010)

Thanks whiteleo. I'll cut back on the organ meat, do some calculations. How much lean or fatty meat should he have and how much bones? 

Do any of you feed an all-meat diet and did you have any problems with it after a while? 

For the ACV I used Bragg's raw organic. How much should I put in food or water? Eurobox, does the topical AVC application do anything for your dogs' yeasty spots? Thanks.


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## RawFedDogs (Jun 16, 2008)

I would stop worrying so much about all these minute calculations. If you have a 30lb dog, feed him between 1/2 and 3/4 of a pound of animal parts/day. I prefer feeding RMB's instead of ground meat. Don't be concerned about how much lean and fatty meat or how much bone. Just feed a variety of animal parts from a variety of animals and all that will take care of itself. 

I too would lighten up on the organs considerably. I would feed maybe 1/2 cup a week. You can feed it once a week or divide it up into daily feedings. I suggest feeding it once a week for a month or so in order to tell if it affects his problems when he eats them.

I have never had any faith in ACV. It seems to be too much of a "snake oil" to me. I would eliminate all the supplements. I suspect one or more of them is what is causing the problems and that stuff isn't necessary anyway. It is very debatable if they do any good at all and they may do harm.

You don't want to feed an all meat diet. Bones and organs are necessary.


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## whiteleo (Sep 7, 2008)

I would also suggest stopping the extra supplements except the fish oil capsule. Are you feeding any fish in the diet? If you are not then I would add in a fish meal once a week in place of a meat/bone meal. The omeag fatty acids are essential in a dogs diet even with the fish oil caps. Keep us posted.


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## whiteleo (Sep 7, 2008)

Also make sure that the fish oil cap that you are using doesn't have the ingredients of soy, as this can be a trigger. I cannot use fish oil with soy on my one dog as his ears get all gunky, and yeasty.


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

i think you're overdosing your dog on organs which is very rich, probably too rich....

organs are very high in fat soluble vitamins too..and can affect the health of both humans and dogs...

try cutting back on the food and the organs....especially the organs...

my corgi mix weighs 36 lbs and eats about 12 oz a day.....i do measure because i stink at eyeballing.

her liver and kidney is about 10 per cent of that....that i can eye ball....

have you had her thyroid checked, since cockers are prone to hypothyroidism?


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## yeastydawg (Oct 24, 2010)

Hi everyone. Sorry it's been so long since I last posted in this thread (I'm the original poster). We've been trying for a while to deal with my boy's problems. It turned out that the arthritis was being caused by hip dysplasia. Now he is on glucosamine-chrondoitin. He's a young dog and it pains me so much to see him in pain. Sometimes he just lies down for long periods of time, unwilling to stand, and cries out whenever his legs are touched or when he's moved. Whenever he's excited, he can walk okay, but I know he's just ignoring the pain and will pay for it later when he quiets down. I want to ask if any of you have dogs with this condition, and: 

1. How do you manage the pain? Should a dog have painkillers everyday?
2. Have you ever tried the (controversial or highly praised, depending on whom you ask) Vitamin C (Ester C) therapy? It's essentially giving the dog high doses (up to 2,000mg a day) of vitamin C to improve mobility and even improve the health of the joints. I've read success stories online, but am afraid to try it since I also read that too much Vitamin C can lead to the formation of calcium oxalate kidney stones in predisposed breeds (cocker spaniels included), especially if the dog is on a high-protein diet (my cocker is on a cooked version of the barf diet). Have you had any side effects with the high Vit C doses? 
3. How much exercise is safe for and beneficial to a dog with hip dysplasia? 

Thanks very much.


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

yeastydawg said:


> Hi everyone. Sorry it's been so long since I last posted in this thread (I'm the original poster). We've been trying for a while to deal with my boy's problems. It turned out that the arthritis was being caused by hip dysplasia. Now he is on glucosamine-chrondoitin. He's a young dog and it pains me so much to see him in pain. Sometimes he just lies down for long periods of time, unwilling to stand, and cries out whenever his legs are touched or when he's moved. Whenever he's excited, he can walk okay, but I know he's just ignoring the pain and will pay for it later when he quiets down. I want to ask if any of you have dogs with this condition, and:
> 
> 1. How do you manage the pain? Should a dog have painkillers everyday?
> 2. Have you ever tried the (controversial or highly praised, depending on whom you ask) Vitamin C (Ester C) therapy? It's essentially giving the dog high doses (up to 2,000mg a day) of vitamin C to improve mobility and even improve the health of the joints. I've read success stories online, but am afraid to try it since I also read that too much Vitamin C can lead to the formation of calcium oxalate kidney stones in predisposed breeds (cocker spaniels included), especially if the dog is on a high-protein diet (my cocker is on a cooked version of the barf diet). Have you had any side effects with the high Vit C doses?
> ...


hi and i'm so sorry to hear about your baby....

what about surgery? would that help?

in regards to 2000 mg of ester c for a dog, depending on weight.....i'm not sure i'd recommend it....simply because in my opinion, so take it for what it's worth, i believe that most of it will be peed out.

what isn't peed out can, over time, build up like dust on an air filter....the kidneys have this filtration system so everything wasteful passes through....

if it gets blocked then the kidneys don't function properly....

and i agree with you also that stones can be formed from either too much calcium or too much vitamin c. that would apply to both humans and dogs.

but this is just my opinion.

i certainly would not do agility trials...but as they say, move it or lose it....i think, as with humans, there are therapies that would help him.

two that come to mind are:

walking, not running, but a steady walk a few times a day
swimming, which i would think would do the most good to keep the muscles, ligaments and tendons strong around the bone to help with weightbearing.

keeping him at a proper weight certainly will help.

you can also use a heated bed pad for him....

i have arthritis, not hip dysplasia and these are things i do for my own relief.....

water
heat
walking.

are you still feeding raw? how much are you feeding? how much does he weigh these days? have you cut out the supplements, except for fish oil, without soy? did you cut back his organ intake?
i know. this sounds like the third degree, but i'm reading back into the post LOL

i don't know how much relief your dog will get from this....what does your vet say?


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## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

Laser therapy has been an absolute miracle for my dog's arthritis. She feels better now than she has felt since I got her.

They are also doing stem cell therapy on dysplasia that is surprisingly cheap. for a dog so young, i would be looking into stuff like that. I am not a great believer that supplements are going to help much. Everyone feeds their dogs glucosamine, but I don't think there are any definitive studies that pills actually help.

Here's an article about a dog with dysplasia that got stem cell treatment:
A Dog's Stem Cell Life - ABC News


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## cprcheetah (Jul 14, 2010)

*1. How do you manage the pain? Should a dog have painkillers everyday?*
I believe pain killers like (Rimadyl, Previcoxx, Metacam) have a place, but just as with ANY NSAID both human and doggie, they can have side effects especially with chronic use. My husband got kidney damage from too much ibuprofen. If you do give pain killers make sure to have bloodwork ran every 6 months to check levels, and giving Milk Thistle can help lessen the effects on the liver. There are lots of other things you can do to help arthritis. This is one of the BEST informational sites I've found on arthritis: DogAware.com Health: Arthritis in Dogs Shellie has hip dysplasia and I give her Synovi G3 supplements for it, and Zoey has arthritis I give her Phycox as I wanted the extra 'pain' benefit as hers is worse. I have heard wonders worked with Adequan injections.

2. *Have you ever tried the (controversial or highly praised, depending on whom you ask) Vitamin C (Ester C) therapy? It's essentially giving the dog high doses (up to 2,000mg a day) of vitamin C to improve mobility and even improve the health of the joints. I've read success stories online, but am afraid to try it since I also read that too much Vitamin C can lead to the formation of calcium oxalate kidney stones in predisposed breeds (cocker spaniels included), especially if the dog is on a high-protein diet (my cocker is on a cooked version of the barf diet). Have you had any side effects with the high Vit C doses? *
I have had a great dane who was on Vit C and his only side effects were Rocket Butt Diarrhea from them on occassion. He was on them for about a year. 

3. *How much exercise is safe for and beneficial to a dog with hip dysplasia? *
Exercise can help keep the joints 'lubed' & active however you want to make sure you don't 'overdo' it. Swimming and hydrotherapy can be very beneficial for arthritic dogs. Zoey gets to swim a couple times a week.


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## yeastydawg (Oct 24, 2010)

cprcheetah, the vet prescribed Rimadyl, but it does not seem to be working! Now he's just lying down and refusing to stand even to eat. He tries to stand up, howls terribly in pain, so he gives up and tries to catch his breath. I gave him Rimadyl, but the pain seems to worsen. I can't bear it, I feel so helpless. His crying is so painful to hear.


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## cprcheetah (Jul 14, 2010)

yeastydawg said:


> cprcheetah, the vet prescribed Rimadyl, but it does not seem to be working! Now he's just lying down and refusing to stand even to eat. He tries to stand up, howls terribly in pain, so he gives up and tries to catch his breath. I gave him Rimadyl, but the pain seems to worsen. I can't bear it, I feel so helpless. His crying is so painful to hear.


How long has he been on it? If he's been on it for a while, you might want to ask your vet about adding Tramadol to the mix. The link I posted above has lots of ideas on what you can do to relieve their pain. I have been in your shoes a lot, I had a great dane who needed a hip replacement surgery by age 1, however we could never get him healthy enough to go through surgery and he died due to other health issues at 18 months.


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## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

yeastydawg said:


> cprcheetah, the vet prescribed Rimadyl, but it does not seem to be working! Now he's just lying down and refusing to stand even to eat. He tries to stand up, howls terribly in pain, so he gives up and tries to catch his breath. I gave him Rimadyl, but the pain seems to worsen. I can't bear it, I feel so helpless. His crying is so painful to hear.


Can you call the vet? That sounds terrible.


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## Pimzilla (May 1, 2011)

I know my mum used to give her rotweiler/golden retriever mix ester C for her joints after finding out what caused her pain. It did work for her, but as with all supplements I wouldn't make it a lifelong treatment but maybe worth trying when it's really bad to see if it helps?


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