# HUGE Mistake - Organs



## frogdog (Aug 10, 2011)

I have made my first mistake with raw and it's a *HUGE* one. I am beside myself!

Since slowly introducing organs and Yogi taking to them like a champ with absolutely no upset....I just realized after more than a month...I've been feeding his weekly percentage on a daily basis...UGH. What a dumb a__!!! 

My concern is Vitamin A toxicity. Please everyone chime in!

Now from this point forward...how long should I hold off on feeding organs again?

This is where I took my info from concerning percentage of organs and misread totally...confused weekly with daily. This is what happens when reading too fast and doing too many things in life at once. No EXCUSE!

https://www.facebook.com/groups/261761471359/permalink/10150321798601360/


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## naturalfeddogs (Jan 6, 2011)

I wouldn't give any more organs now for probably two weeks, then get back on a schedule of weekly, or if your dog can handle it a couple times a week. You should be ok, just back off of it for a little while.


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## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

You are fine - snorkels gets at least three times the organs she should be getting because of her constipation. I was concerned too, and people here and some stuff I read told me that they have to have some huge amount (can't remember exactly) that would be more than you would ever feed them, period.

snorkels is sometimes getting 40 percent organs, sometimes 30 percent. all her bloodwork is perfect. I asked her vet last week when we went in, and she told me that was cool.

I don't know whether you should stop organs to to the "balance over time" thing. I wouldn't have that option with Snorkels or she would never poop. My guess is it probably wouldn't hurt either way.


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## frogdog (Aug 10, 2011)

Yogi had mostly powder puff poops until introducing organs especially liver...perfect poos ever since...really seemed to balance him out. This was with feeding a majority of meat only meals...no bone except every 2 days max.

The first time I fed liver was with a bone heavy meal and was somewhat constipated. Then, finally, complete dust bombs came out...no need for bone-in with his liver.

ETA: Correction...not every 2 days...every 2 meals...he gets bone-in


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## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

if you aren't feeding bone very often, you might need to supplement with eggshells. the calcium/phosphorus ratio is very important and I find especially with Snorkels it's easy to get that out of whack with not enough bone because of her constipation.

Eggshells don't constipate her like real bone does, but she still gets bone every day - I give her the bone ground up because she processes the smaller pieces better than chewing a bone on her own.

in fact, I consider the calcium/phosphorus ratio the real vital, critical part of her diet. Here's two sites that I think have really good information

http://k9joy.com/dogarticles/dogfood01cap.pdf
Calcium & Phosphorous in Dogs  - Chinaroad Lowchens of Australia -

With Rebel, I don't worry so much - he gets more food, he doesn't get constipated with bone, and I just feed him the amount of bone where he's pooping normally.

And that might be why she gets so many organs - I can't/won't reduce the bone and eggshell in her diet or she'd be getting way too much boneless and almost no bone if I were only able to give her the 10% recommended organ.


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## frogdog (Aug 10, 2011)

I corrected myself above in regards to feeding bone-in...every 2 meals...not every 2 days. We are introducing quail eggs after Christmas. There is a quail farm here with a store front.

Thank You for the links...will read up on


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## doggoblin (Jun 6, 2011)

K9joy Education: free article on " The Dangerous(?) Vitamin A " by Mogens Eliasen may also be of interest


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## naturalfeddogs (Jan 6, 2011)

doggoblin said:


> K9joy Education: free article on " The Dangerous(?) Vitamin A " by Mogens Eliasen may also be of interest[/QUOT
> Mods, can this be made a sticky? It's really helpful.


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## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

That a great article - also, I feed alot of spleen, pancreas, and kidney - not all liver. Even though I feed liver every week and alot of organs, I just don't worry about any kind of toxicity.

One reason is I do get full blood panels done regularly - just in case. Not only are the blood levels good, but last time they were all smack in the middle of perfect, not even ranging toward the edges of high or low.

By the way, that whole site is great and has so much good information. I use it all the time.


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## frogdog (Aug 10, 2011)

I agree, great article and site. Thanks!

I feed spleen, pancreas and kidney also and from 3 sources...beef, lamb and goat.

Ok, looks like I wasn't mistakenly harming my dog. Whoo!!! I can relax now and breathe normal, lol.


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## whiteleo (Sep 7, 2008)

This is why I don't do daily organs, every 2 weeks I feed my dogs a meal of liver and kidney, alternating between lamb liver and and the fresh beef liver I got from a friends cow she butchered.


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

frogdog said:


> I have made my first mistake with raw and it's a *HUGE* one. I am beside myself!
> 
> Since slowly introducing organs and Yogi taking to them like a champ with absolutely no upset....I just realized after more than a month...I've been feeding his weekly percentage on a daily basis...UGH. What a dumb a__!!!
> 
> ...


breathe. it takes a bit before dogs get vitamin a toxicity, even small dogs...upwards to a year or so......


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## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

magicre said:


> breathe. it takes a bit before dogs get vitamin a toxicity, even small dogs...upwards to a year or so......


re, where did you read it takes a year? I can't find that. What i can find is that it just takes a whole boatload of liver to do it, more than anyone would normally feed their dog.


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

xellil said:


> re, where did you read it takes a year? I can't find that. What i can find is that it just takes a whole boatload of liver to do it, more than anyone would normally feed their dog.


in a human being, it would take 5000 iu every day for five years to cause toxicity, given average body size.

. i studied that when i was taking pharmacology courses and studying what has the potential to be toxic and how long it would take.

my apologies for approximating a year.....it would probably take longer. basically i'm saying it would take a boatload of liver over an extended period of time, to be determined by the size of the dog, the length of time the liver is given and and amount given on a daily basis.

i'm sorry for not being specific; but, it's just something i wouldn't worry about unless you're feeding a half pound of liver every day for an extended period of time.....

it's 5% of the 10 % for a reason.....do i owe you a martini ?


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## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

OK - I might take the martini - I am a little nervous about it because I feed snorkels so many organs, but not all liver. If she lives 5 more years (I hope) she should be ok.


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

how much does snorkels weigh? 

am i remembering right...you give organs to keep the constipation away? is that right?

how many ounces of liver does snorkels get on average, per week?


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## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

Yes, way more than recommended because of the constipation. 

I alternate between liver, kidney, and spleen so I'm not positive but just as a guess I would say probably she gets 1.5 oz of organ per day (out of 4.5 oz total) so that's 10.5 oz per week so probably 2-3 oz of liver per week.

She weighs 9.9 pounds right now.


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

yeah, that is too much.

and it would be a long term too much....you are, however, not just giving liver, so that's good....but your organs are high, considering how much she weighs and what she eats....

do you feed heart? that's pretty rich......do you feed bone with every meal? can you back off the bone? and feed some of the richer meats?

especially after you get settled...i know you're up in the air right now...


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## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

No, I can back off one or the other organs but I can't reduce it. I know it's high.

I give her about an ounce of ground meat with bones in the am. right now, it's ground up goat. In the afternoon, I give her boneless meat and eggshells. At night, i give her only boneless. i feel like I'm right on the edge of not enough calcium.

With each meal, she gets 1 oz of meat and about .5 oz of organ. Any less, and she's out in the yard trying to poop for 5-10 minutes and MAY get something out and may not and just give up. 

She gets beef heart but also other proteins and as much fish as I can give her without her throwing it up. And every three days she gets the rib bone for her teeth but she doesn't get the bone part of it.

she's been doing this since probably June. I was alternating tripe as an organ and when someone said the other day tripe wasn't an organ it dawned on me that those days were the days she had such a hard time pooping. So now I'm mixing in the tripe as a boneless meat.


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## doggiedad (Jan 23, 2011)

when i feed eggshells i always grind them in the coffee grinder.



xellil said:


> if you aren't feeding bone very often, you might need to supplement with eggshells.


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## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

Last time I bought Eggshellent which is really nice, but now that I'm jobless I'll be grinding eggshells.

I also rotate in pancreas so it's probably a little less liver than I said. Spleen and liver have her pooping perfectly. Maybe I should increase the spleen and decrease the liver.


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## funshine (Jan 21, 2010)

Do you think lung would do the trick?
Considered as rich muscle meat since it doesn't "produce" anything (and not as vitamin rich as liver), but "organy" enough to loosen the poo?
I know it's hard to get (I don't have a source), but maybe could be an option if you can find it for a test run.


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## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

funshine said:


> Do you think lung would do the trick?
> Considered as rich muscle meat since it doesn't "produce" anything (and not as vitamin rich as liver), but "organy" enough to loosen the poo?
> I know it's hard to get (I don't have a source), but maybe could be an option if you can find it for a test run.


Thanks - I haven't tried lung, except the dried-up lamb lung that's hard as a rock. I'll look and see if I can find it. I am willing to try anything!


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

did i read that you said she gets bone every day?

what would happen if she didn't get bone every day.....

are you working from a spreadsheet? is that how you came up with this? because bone has calcium but so does the meat/or whatever protein you give her.....


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## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

Well, i haven't figured it up for awhile so I had to go back:

The ground meat comes from a whole animal, so the bones/meat should be in the correct percentage. that's breakfast.

The best anyone can figure on the eggshells is an estimate (it of course DOES depend on the type of meat, quality of meat, etc.) but 1/4 tspn per 100 grams of meat is kind of a loose guideline. 

For the 85 grams of meat she gets after breakfast (about 3 oz) I reduce that to 1/8 teaspoon, a little less than the guidelines, to make up for the richer organs that have more calcium in them. And a couple days a week I skip the eggshell altogether. But never the bone.

So I figured on the low side, thinking that any unaccounted for extra calcium would make up for it. And i do believe I am on the edge of not enough calcium. 

If i didn't give her bone one day, I would have to double up the next. And I'm not willing to drop the bone altogether. I just think it's too important in their diet to have actual bones. If not, we could just feed them boneless meat high in calcium.


So what i read says two meals of liver a month are sufficient. For Snorkels at 4 oz of liver a day (I am assuming they mean two meals of total food for the day) would be 8 oz of liver a month.

But let's assume it's half that - 4 oz a month. That's one oz per week. I'm not giving her THAT much more than that, and well within the safe levels.

It's organs as a whole that I'm overdosing her on. But pancreas, spleen and kidney have zero Vitamin A - they are richer in other things but not, as far as I can tell, anything that is dangerous for her. It's diarrhea you worry about, and with her that's like expecting to see reindeer antlers on a pig.

yep, i do think i am ok with the way I am doing it.


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

LOL re: the reindeer antlers on a pig....

you have done much work, jedi, on figuring out what snorkels needs.....further than i've gone.....i wish i had the patience to do what you're doing.....but i don't.

i think if you back off the liver a little and increase the spleen, pancreas and kidney, then you've got yourself a nice variety of organs....


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## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

I think that's a wonderful idea. also, I just checked and chicken livers have less than half the Vitamin A. I could cut out the beef liver altogether.

I don't have the patience to do all those seeds! THat's alot more work than a one-time figuring up of food ingredients.


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

xellil said:


> I think that's a wonderful idea. also, I just checked and chicken livers have less than half the Vitamin A. I could cut out the beef liver altogether.
> 
> I don't have the patience to do all those seeds! THat's alot more work than a one-time figuring up of food ingredients.


i wouldn't necessarily cut out the beef liver. i feed a variety of animal livers....i don't think, as you've just proven, that all livers are created equally.....i mean, you don't want to go too low on vitamin a, either...

funny how figuring out all those numbers is more aggravating to me than to you LOL...

i don't mind making up a batch of seeds every three weeks, since both the dogs and i benefit from it and it's a 1/4 cup of each seed, so no figuring.....i've never seen my hair this healthy before and i use hair dye.....

whereas you've got all these lovely numbers worked out and i just get confused 

sorry to the OP for hijacking the thread 

merry christmas to all!

this is why there is mint chocolate chip and vanilla ice cream.


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## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

I guess the moral of the story is - feeding a month's worth of liver in a week is not going to be an issue 

And I guess I will keep doing some beef liver - nothing makes her poop better than that and spleen.

I guess I am glad I don't have a dog with explosive diarrhea, but man it's pretty hard watching one try and try and try and nothing come out. As Rick said yesterday - the thing that really makes my day is to see her have a poop that pops right out!


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