# Did I expect to much of Champion Petfood?



## PDXdogmom (Jun 30, 2010)

I'm really curious about the use of "minced by-products" and "waste" in Orijen's formulas.

I came across a Winter 2011 newsletter by Freshwater Fish Marketing Corp. See the Market Update article. http://www.freshwaterfish.com/system/files/L2PNewsletter%20Winter%202011.pdf

It says that Freshwater Fish now has an "exclusive arrangement" with Champion Petfoods. Champion buys all of Freshwater Fish's "minced by-product" for several hundred thousand dollars a year; so now Freshwater saves the $ they used to pay to have "the waste trucked" to a rendering facility. The three primary fish species listed on Freshwater's web site are" whitefish, walleye and northern pike.

Considering that dog food manufacturers have to list if "meals" contain any by-products, can I then assume that the "fresh" whitefish, walleye and northern pike ingredients listed in Orijen are the "minced by-products" purchased from Freshwater Fish and made into a product referenced by Champion as "raw freshwater fish protein"?

I do realize that no kibble uses the top cuts of meat or fish, but I did have a somewhat different perception of Orijen's "fresh boneless walleye", "fresh boneless lake whitefish" and "fresh boneless flounder". I thought they might be more than the minced by-product waste of another company turned into "raw freshwater fish protein".

What's your take? Did I expect too much?


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## Tobi (Mar 18, 2011)

> After the samples were tested by Champion, a product was
> developed that met their high quality specifications.


don't see anything wrong so far.



> We began working with Champion in 2005 when we
> sent them samples of minced by-products for testing after
> it was extracted from fish during the filleting process.


This could mean many things... it could be done with a machine and as such there would be some waste still on the bones after the filet is gone, so there may be over thousands of fish, hundreds of pounds of meat left over that that company may refer to as by-products.

However, i'd still use this company if i couldn't for any reason feed raw. This is actually the only kibble i'd recommend to people as well.


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## kevin bradley (Aug 9, 2009)

....this was the response I got from the lady who wrote the Dog Food Project... 

http://www.ourdogsonline.com/ubbthr...gonew/1/Minced_by_products_in_Orijen_A#UNREAD




If my guess is correct, then it's not a bad thing, no. "Byproduct" in the widest sense is something you get while processing/refining material(s) into something.

However, since AAFCO regulation is pretty lax, you don't want to see the generic term "byproducts" in an ingredient list, simply because of the worst case scenario that you don't know just what exactly they are. 

E.g. if we look at a chicken, anything but the quality muscle meat is considered "byproducts". This can be good stuff that's nutritionally valuable to a dog and sometimes even sold for human consumption, like hearts, gizzards, livers, or necks, or undesirable things like diseased/cancerous cut-offs or intestines including fecal matter that aren't fit for anything except making fertilizer.

The low quality stuff is also often not handled properly, e.g. dumped in large containers and stored without refrigeration before it's taken away to a rendering facility.


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## PDXdogmom (Jun 30, 2010)

kevin bradley said:


> ....this was the response I got from the lady who wrote the Dog Food Project...
> 
> Minced by-products in Orijen/Acana?
> 
> ...


You forgot to include this part of her response also: *AAFCO has no specific definition for fresh "fish" as an ingredient, so the manufacturers don't have to meet specific requirements.*

That's the point. There are no specific requirements. Freshwater Fish's "minced by-products" and "waste" may be anything: the hundreds of pounds of meat left over from filleting as suggested in this thread's post #2; *or* it may actually be something closer to parts of AAFCO's definition for by-product meals which include undeveloped eggs, intestines including fecal matter (as pointed out by your Mordana), etc.

The dog food companies have a huge legal loophole with AAFCO having no legal definition of "fresh" and a very hazy definition of the word "by-products".


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## baggie (Jun 2, 2010)

I'd send an email to Champion. From what I gather, their customer service is top notch. I think it is situations like this you have to look at a company's track record and how your dog does on this food. 

The simple fact, this is still dry dog food. Those of us who choose to feed commercial foods just have to figure out what's best from, frankly, a not to appealing option.


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## RCTRIPLEFRESH5 (Feb 11, 2010)

baggie said:


> I'd send an email to Champion. From what I gather, their customer service is top notch. I think it is situations like this you have to look at a company's track record and how your dog does on this food.
> 
> The simple fact, this is still dry dog food. Those of us who choose to feed commercial foods just have to figure out what's best from, frankly, a not to appealing option.


champion has never once responded to any of my emails ever. top notch for sure,


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## baggie (Jun 2, 2010)

RCTRIPLEFRESH5 said:


> champion has never once responded to any of my emails ever. top notch for sure,


Did you address them like you do people here?

They also list a mailing address and a phone number.


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## PDXdogmom (Jun 30, 2010)

baggie said:


> I'd send an email to Champion. From what I gather, their customer service is top notch. I think it is situations like this you have to look at a company's track record and how your dog does on this food.
> 
> The simple fact, this is still dry dog food. Those of us who choose to feed commercial foods just have to figure out what's best from, frankly, a not to appealing option.


I have not had satisfactory experiences in contacting Champion by e-mail. I e-mailed them twice with questions in this past half year and it took 10 days both times to receive a response. In contrast, I e-mailed Petcurean and Canine Caviar in the last few months and got answers within the same day. Now that's customer service.

And yes, kibble will never offer the same advantages as dehydrated, home-cooked or raw; but there are differences among them. If I pay top dollar for something like Orijen, then I want some evidence that the ingredients truly are a notch above brands B,C and D. It pays to do your homework.


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## RCTRIPLEFRESH5 (Feb 11, 2010)

baggie said:


> Did you address them like you do people here?
> 
> They also list a mailing address and a phone number.


why should i have to call or mail when their email should work?
i also did call and never got a message.
never snail mailed.

and in response to your question i will leave it at ..i treated them with respect.
-fresh


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## CavePaws (Jan 25, 2011)

I startee buying Orijen for my picky cat so this thread does interest me. I will email and give Champion a call today. I've never experienced satisfactory customer service from any kibble company and I emailed quite a few when I was searching for grain free for my dogs. We will see how Champion responds I guess.


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## kevin bradley (Aug 9, 2009)

PDX,

I provided a link to her response so I didn't intentionally leave anything out. Tone it down. 

I also don't appreciate your snide reference to "my Mordanna"... I've never met her but respect the work she's done on dog food. For the record, I believe she feeds real food to her Dog(s). However, she continues to evaluate and monitor the industry pretty closely. I'm thankful she put the effort into the work she's done. She's also pretty unwaivering on how much she demands out of companies before recommending them. Champion is one of the few she still recommends.


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## dr tim (Mar 27, 2011)

Did you really think they are using fillets of fish like you see in the super market ice box?


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## PDXdogmom (Jun 30, 2010)

dr tim said:


> Did you really think they are using fillets of fish like you see in the super market ice box?


Of course not. If you look carefully at my first post, you will see that my first sentence in the 5th paragraph reads: "I do realize that no kibble uses the top cuts of meat or fish,"


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## PDXdogmom (Jun 30, 2010)

Kevin,

Sorry about the use of the word "your". It must have come across stronger than I meant it to be. 

I included more from the link you provided, because not all people bother to click into links and read them through. I thought it gave balance to some of the points you did copy and paste in from the other forum.


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## kevin bradley (Aug 9, 2009)

no problem. I'm having a crap morning and probably need to cool it a bit. 

Your post was a good one and very valid. If we can't have faith in Champion, we may be out of luck on any dry foods.


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## happygirlx3 (Feb 22, 2010)

Hey guys, I work at a pet store where we sell Champion Pet Foods products frequently. It's one of our biggest sellers. Because we're concerned with quality, I e-mailed the company last night after reading this thread. I received a reply in less than 24 hours and am pretty satisfied with the answer. Also excited about Acana's Classic line coming to the US!

Here is the reply (I've met the rep in person once by the way),

Hi --------,

It’s nice to hear from you again, thank you for giving us a chance to address your concerns!

Champion Petfoods receives FRESH Walleye, Lake Whitefish and Northern Pike from the Freshwater Fish Company daily. This link Orijen will take you to our website where you can find more information on this supplier, and our Freshwater Fish. Our ORIJEN diets feature up to 45% fresh meat or fish ingredients, and a minimum of 6 different FRESH meat ingredients all sourced from local trusted suppliers-ORIJEN is unmatched in the quantity, quality and variety of the Fresh meat and fish used in our diets. All of these ingredients including our fish have been passed as fit for human consumption by the CFIA and contain no by-products.

I think that the confusion with the link that you sent comes down to terminology. The Freshwater Fish Company considers a “by-product” to be what is left of the fish after the fillet has been removed and sold into the human market. In the pet food industry a by product refers to parts of the animal or fish that would not be classified as fit for human consumption.

All ORIJEN and ACANA meat and fish ingredients are produced exclusively from animals and fish that have been passed as fit for human consumption, and all are produced in human grade facilities (no by-products, no 3-D animal parts). After the fish has had the fillets removed we put the fish rack through a process that allows us to pull the remaining meat off the carcass. It is the remaining meat and fat that we are using, a very high quality ingredient- the same fish that goes into human-grade “fish cakes”.


ORIJEN is formulated with low-ash ingredients and a very high inclusion of fresh meats, which moderates the ORIJEN calcium and phosphate levels. Bones are a rich source of Biologically Appropriate natural minerals. ASH levels are important as they affect mineral levels. Ash levels increase with the inclusion of chicken, turkey or fish meals. These ‘meals’ are made from rendered flesh and bone of chicken, turkey and fish. Rendering converts bone to ash which is a rich source of mineral. Higher protein results in higher ash. Higher ash results in higher minerals.

Our diets are moderate in ash – between 6.5% and 7.5%. This is achieved using a 2 point strategy: Our fresh meats are boneless, and our meals are prepared by removing some of the bones before rendering. This results in a very low-ash meal which maintains mineral levels that are safe for long term feeding.

We are hoping to begin offering a selection of ACANA Classic diets to this US this fall. I don’t have an official timeline right now but you can keep an eye on our website for updates. Champion Petfoods | Home

I hope this information is helpful, please write back any time you have other questions or concerns.

Warm Regards,

Bonnie
Customer Care
Champion Petfoods LP

Toll Free 877-939-0006

11403 - 186 Street | Edmonton, AB, Canada | T5S 2W6
championpetfoods.com

ORIJEN 80.20 IS PET FOOD OF THE YEAR 2011-2012 FOR THE 3RD CONSECUTIVE YEAR!
CERTIFIED BY THE GLYCEMIC RESEARCH INSTITUTE of WASHINGTON, DC

The information contained in this message is confidential and is intended for the addressee only. If you have received this message in error or there are any problems please notify the originator immediately. The unauthorised use, disclosure, copying or alteration of this message is strictly forbidden.


I think she gave me a pretty good explanation, what do y'all think? :smile:


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## Tobi (Mar 18, 2011)

happygirlx3 said:


> I think that the confusion with the link that you sent comes down to terminology. The Freshwater Fish Company considers a “by-product” to be what is left of the fish after the fillet has been removed and sold into the human market. In the pet food industry a by product refers to parts of the animal or fish that would not be classified as fit for human consumption.
> 
> All ORIJEN and ACANA meat and fish ingredients are produced exclusively from animals and fish that have been passed as fit for human consumption, and all are produced in human grade facilities (no by-products, no 3-D animal parts). After the fish has had the fillets removed we put the fish rack through a process that allows us to pull the remaining meat off the carcass. It is the remaining meat and fat that we are using, a very high quality ingredient- the same fish that goes into human-grade “fish cakes”.


This is exactly what i thought actually in my first post... glad to see that they are using the highest grade ingredients they can


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## PDXdogmom (Jun 30, 2010)

Referring to the e-mail included in post #16:

The word "fresh" was never in question in my mind. And as the reply says, there are varying definitions of the word "by-product".

My remaining question: The Freshwater Fish newsletter says "After the samples were tested by Champion,* a product was developed *that met their high quality specifications."

What is the product that was developed? I don't see where that can simply be referring to the "remaining meat and fat" being pulled off the carcass.


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## dr tim (Mar 27, 2011)

This is what they call "wordsmithing", gang. The stuff was going to the landfill otherwise.


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## PDXdogmom (Jun 30, 2010)

Well, I may have found my own partial answer (conceptually if not specifically) to my question in post #18.

What "product was developed" by Champion from Freshwater Fish's by-products?

I came across the following on the Timberwolf dog food site in their "myths and misconceptions" page:


What about dog foods that list meat?"

_"Good question! Oh, what clever readers you are! First, only a handful of mills have the equipment to add meat. Some companies may list meat but actually use meal. *Of those that actually can add meat, it’s not quite what you would expect. It’s usually mechanically deboned and mixed with water to make a slurry that is pumped into the extruder.* The most you can use in a formula is limited to about 30%, but that amount can be as little as 3%. What started out as chicken with 78% moisture is now perhaps 90% moisture cooked down to 10%.  That 30% you started out with is now about 3.3% or less dry matter. To get the protein up, you must now add corn gluten meal or another protein source. Corn gluten meal is a good protein source. It’s high in the sulfur-containing amino acids, but a lot of people (myself included) prefer an animal-based protein, which means you must add animal meals, which means it is not 100% human grade."_


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## dr tim (Mar 27, 2011)

And that is how it is done with the current technology; I am glad you found this on your own.

Raw ingredients placed into an extruder are no different than using a meal that was processed prior to the extruder and that comes from every nutritionist I know and that is many. You can draw your own conclusions as to whether this is all marketing or not.

If you want raw meat benefits, feed raw meat. No way to mass produce this idea with the current methods.


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## PDXdogmom (Jun 30, 2010)

The one plus, that I can think of, for having some "fresh" meat (in addition to a "meal") is that it is processed and cooked only once as opposed to twice like the meals.

It begs the question of whether it's really worth paying a significantly higher price for a kibble that lists 5 different fresh meats (in addition to meal) when in reality so little of that cooked fresh meat makes up much of the total % of the kibble - maybe only 3%.

I've been around the block on this and have probably fed almost every high-end kibble out there. I'm very satisfied at the moment with feeding the much simpler Canine Caviar Chicken and Pearl Millet. I like their choice of ingredients and feed it plain for breakfast. I either home-cook for dinner or add some additional protein (meat or egg) to the kibble.

For those of us who are not raw feeding for very legitimate reasons, I think having a "base" kibble at a decent price is a good option. Then, supplement with extra protein as wanted.


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## dr tim (Mar 27, 2011)

I produce at the same plant as Canine Caviar and use the same ingredients; they are very good. You have chosen wisely.

Now the rest of you out there can think on exactly what PDX has brought up; the truth and whether it is worth the cost.


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## PDXdogmom (Jun 30, 2010)

Interesting . . . I believe that Canine Caviar is produced at Ohio Pet Foods which has a good track record and is also European Union certified.


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## dr tim (Mar 27, 2011)

You are correct. Ohio Pet had 4 foods listed on the Whole Dog Journal of approved dry foods this year. We ship from there to Europe and Asia.


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