# Iams Veterinary Formula



## Breathing Borla

So Roxy has been getting sick in the mornings about one every week or so. After blood tests and urine tests (everything looked good) the vet wants me to try and switch the food to see if she is having issues with it.

I have been feeding EVO turkey and chicken for years and she has done well on it. They want me to switch to this which they gave me.

Iams® Veterinary Formula

Corn Grits, Brewer's Rice, Chicken By-Product Meal, Chicken, Fish Meal, Dried Beet Pulp, Chicken Flavor, Dried Egg Product, Chicken Fat (preserved with mixed Tocopherols, a source of Vitamin E), Brewer's Dried Yeast, Calcium Carbonate, Potassium Chloride, Fructooligosaccharides, Monosodium Phosphate, Vitamins (Vitamin E Supplement, Ascorbic Acid, Vitamin A Acetate, Calcium Pantothenate, Biotin, Thiamine Mononitrate [source of Vitamin B1], Vitamin B12 Supplement, Niacin, Riboflavin Supplement [source of Vitamin B2], Inositol, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride [source of Vitamin B6], Vitamin D3 Supplement, Folic Acid), Fish Oil (preserved with mixed Tocopherols, a source of Vitamin E), Sodium Hexametaphosphate, Choline Chloride, Flax Meal, DL-Methionine, Minerals (Ferrous Sulfate, Zinc Oxide, Manganese Sulfate, Copper Sulfate, Manganous Oxide, Potassium Iodide, Cobalt Carbonate), Ethoxyquin (a preservative), Rosemary Extract



I just don't know as I thought by product meal ect was not good. But I would think the vet would know, maybe not.

Does Natura make a low residue food?

The only thing that has changed has been we had our first baby, so I thought maybe her nerves were getting to her, but that's just a guess


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## lauren43

I wouldn't make the switch to that food. 

Evo is a decent food, if I were looking for a food that was "better" as far as ingredients I would look to Orjien and Acana. Fromm has a great product as well.

I know Instinct has a limited ingredient food, but with all the recent recalls you may want to stay away from that one.


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## Breathing Borla

orijen won't work, I tried that before EVO and it was a no go.

EVO has been really go sof ar but I am trying to follow the Vet's advice with this low residue thing

The ingredient in that IAMs just look like crap. chicken by product meal, beet pulp, corn grits....

Everything I have been able to read says to avoid these since they are harder to digest..

I wonder about californai natural, looks like they have a chicken formula, I just don't know if that qualifies as low residue.

I may call the vet back and discuss but I need to get educated first


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## Sprocket

Wow that Iams food looks HORRIBLE! Definitely don't buy that junk. 

Can you switch to a different Evo formula? If she is sick on a chicken/turkey kibble, then maybe change to a different protein?


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## DaViking

If the reason for the vets recommendation is to evaluate if it is food related, switching from Evo to Orijen, Acana or Fromm 4-Star will not make much difference. The Iams food is extremely easy to digest since (I asume) the bulk of the food comes from corn grits and rice, and it will produce *very little acid* while digested. by-product meals isn't much to worry about in this kind of food since it shouldn't be used as an every day maintenance food anyway. The Iams vet diet should be used to 1) settle and stabilize her digestive system while 2) you look into other similar alternatives if the Iams formula works out. I see Ethoxyquin in there. Could you ask your vet for a similar formula from another manufacturer? RC Medi-Cal?


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## SaharaNight Boxers

Could you do a homemade bland diet of chicken and rice?


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## lauren43

I read the post without reading the low residue part-duh! I still wouldn't feed the Iams. I'll have to second the home cooked, they don't seem to have very many dog foods with low residue formulas..


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## Breathing Borla

I can't do a homemade diet, I simply don't have the time right now. Don't get me wrong I love my dog a lot but I am running a business and have a 3 month old. Wife works full time as well.

I need something I can just dump in her dish. Maybe I should just try the stupid Iams? I just didn't like seeing by product meal ect.

The vet said this food is so easy to digest you don't even have to mix it over, you can just switch.

I thought maybe one of the single protein California naturals might work so I may look into that.

just struggling with what to do right now


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## Breathing Borla

what do you guys/gals think about this theory. (since all blood tests and urine tests were fine)

I think she is stressed with the new baby here as we gave her tons of attention prior to the baby but now with the baby here, no matter how hard we try with both of us working, there is simply less time for the dog a little bit.

so maybe with things being out of sorts the super rich and dense EVO is just a bit hard for her to digest all the way or her tummy is slightly upset sometimes and once a week it catches up with her in the morning (it always in the morning) and she barfs.

she usually eats dinner and her poop is always ok.

so maybe it's just the stress and the EVO is a bit too much?

Thoughts? so maybe something like the california naturals would be a bit less dense and rich


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## Breathing Borla

or I should just listen to teh vet and feed the Iams, but then what, a few weeks go by and I have to switch again?

I guess at least if I did give her the IAMS and she stopped getting sick then I would know it's the EVO.

She has been on EVO for years and everything was fine until the baby came.


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## lauren43

I think you should start a diary, not like a long on but just take note of everything she's eating during the day and the times. Perhaps you could even put in there how much exercise she gets each day and if you notice her being stressed. That way you can see if there is a pattern to the vomiting. 

Does she eat twice a day? At what times? How is she with the baby? And what is the vomit looking like, food, bile?


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## Jacksons Mom

I say you gotta do what you gotta do. Whatever works for your dog.

However, that Iams looks pretty darn bad. Check out Royal Canin and some of their RX foods. They have a low reside formula and it's a lot better.

Here's one of RC's RX foods:
Dried potato, rabbit meal, coconut oil, potato protein, natural flavors, vegetable oil, fish oil, monocalcium phosphate, calcium carbonate, DL-methionine, salt, choline chloride, vitamins [DL-alpha tocopherol acetate (source of vitamin E), L-ascorbyl-2-polyphosphate (source of vitamin C), biotin, D-calcium pantothenate, pyridoxine hydrochloride (vitamin B6), vitamin A acetate, niacin supplement, thiamine mononitrate (vitamin B1), riboflavin supplement (vitamin B2), folic acid, vitamin B12 supplement, vitamin D3 supplement], taurine, trace minerals (zinc oxide, zinc proteinate, ferrous sulfate, manganese proteinate, copper proteinate, copper sulfate, manganous oxide, calcium iodate, sodium selenite), rosemary extract, preserved with natural mixed tocopherols and citric acid.

Crude Protein (min) 19.50%
Crude Fat (min)10.50%
Crude Fiber (max) 3.70%
Moisture (max) 10.00%


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## SaharaNight Boxers

The baby could very well be it. I would just try to keep her calm and still show her she loved and important. A baby is a big difference for a dog.


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## Breathing Borla

what do you guys think about this?

Lamb & Okanagan Apple | Acana

maybe not so dense and rich and easier for her to digest?


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## SaharaNight Boxers

I don't know much about it, Jacksons Mom will probably have a lot more info. Lamb is a richer protein though, although I didn't know if it makes a difference in kibble being cooked.


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## Kibblelady

Breathing Borla said:


> orijen won't work, I tried that before EVO and it was a no go.
> 
> EVO has been really go sof ar but I am trying to follow the Vet's advice with this low residue thing
> 
> The ingredient in that IAMs just look like crap. chicken by product meal, beet pulp, corn grits....
> 
> Everything I have been able to read says to avoid these since they are harder to digest..
> 
> I wonder about californai natural, looks like they have a chicken formula, I just don't know if that qualifies as low residue.
> 
> I may call the vet back and discuss but I need to get educated first


I know everything online you are probably reading is telling you that these ingredients are hard to digest but truth is they are not. Everything in that veterinary diet is very easy to digest and that is the point of that formula. Corn grits are very well digested, all processed corn is no matter what you "hear." Fact is for many, many years everyu single feeding study or study done on processed corn in reference to dogs and digestion has shown it is very well tolerated and highly digestible. It's a long story but corn has been the whipping boy of the grains for years now and it will not stop, fact is what you read maligning this ingredient is wrong, yep I said wrong. I researched it for waaay too long and was never able to prove or substantiate any of the negative things you see written, none of them. Yeah, I am going to deal with tons of posts for saying this lol A number of kibble companies still use corn because they know the truth and know better... 

Anyway, over the long run you would not want to use a food that is based on corn however (meaning it being the first ingredient.) It being contained in a kibble is not the end of the world and no, your dog will not suffer or anything else. Personally I avoid wheat and barley...these I have seen problems with and have seen studies showing the issues with using them.

By-product meal? Honestly it depends on what is in the meal...seriously, there are grades just like anything else. I personally stopped worrying about it a long time ago though. The bottom line is trusting the manufacturer. Many people have a distrust these days that is perpetuated by online blogs and journals as well as books they are reading, just remember anyone can write anything, it doesn't make it true... I do not distrust Iams...for many reasons, if you want me to explain let me know and I will. I have no reason to distrust them and *NO* their foods are *NOT* equivalent to Pedigree and Ol' Roy.

California Natural can be a good long term choice, sure but I think your vet is trying to calm your dog's system first to see if it is indeed diet related. I believe your choices are the above diet, Science Diet's d/d, i/d or z/d or you could do something homemade, your bvet can advise you on a homemade short term diet to rest the system.

Please do not discount what your vet is doing, you may not be thrilled with the choices but remember it is short term so your vet can find out if it is indeed diet related, this will not be your dog's long term diet and after a rest you should be able to return to what you want to feed.

Oh, beet pulp is your friend in this situation IMO. It is not aggravating this situation but is in fact providing actions that help the gut heal and recover...it is not sugar, it is not some sevret way to cover up stool issues, it is simply a great moderately fermentable fiber that helps produce short chain fatty acids in the intestines that in turn produce the gut's perferred colonic cells that keep it healthy. I can explain this in depth to if you would like me to. Just let me know how far you want me to go. 

I realize what I have just written is going to cause a storm of comments. If you would like to talk to me away from that feel free to private message me.

Hope your dog feels better real soon.


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## Kibblelady

Breathing Borla said:


> what do you guys think about this?
> 
> Lamb & Okanagan Apple | Acana
> 
> maybe not so dense and rich and easier for her to digest?


I wouldn't use that in this case, Lamb is much harder to digest than corn and chicken, much harder.


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## Makovach

Seems like you have gotten a lot of advice. 

I hope you can figure something out and your pup starts to feel better.


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## Makovach

Kibblelady said:


> I wouldn't use that in this case, Lamb is much harder to digest than corn and chicken, much harder.


Acana also has a duck and pear and a chicken and potato limited ingredient foods as well. I do not know what it means to be low residue though, so I'm probably of no help.


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## SaharaNight Boxers

Kibblelady said:


> I know everything online you are probably reading is telling you that these ingredients are hard to digest but truth is they are not. Everything in that veterinary diet is very easy to digest and that is the point of that formula. Corn grits are very well digested, all processed corn is no matter what you "hear." Fact is for many, many years everyu single feeding study or study done on processed corn in reference to dogs and digestion has shown it is very well tolerated and highly digestible. It's a long story but corn has been the whipping boy of the grains for years now and it will not stop, fact is what you read maligning this ingredient is wrong, yep I said wrong. I researched it for waaay too long and was never able to prove or substantiate any of the negative things you see written, none of them. Yeah, I am going to deal with tons of posts for saying this lol A number of kibble companies still use corn because they know the truth and know better...
> 
> Anyway, over the long run you would not want to use a food that is based on corn however (meaning it being the first ingredient.) It being contained in a kibble is not the end of the world and no, your dog will not suffer or anything else. Personally I avoid wheat and barley...these I have seen problems with and have seen studies showing the issues with using them.
> 
> By-product meal? Honestly it depends on what is in the meal...seriously, there are grades just like anything else. I personally stopped worrying about it a long time ago though. The bottom line is trusting the manufacturer. Many people have a distrust these days that is perpetuated by online blogs and journals as well as books they are reading, just remember anyone can write anything, it doesn't make it true... I do not distrust Iams...for many reasons, if you want me to explain let me know and I will. I have no reason to distrust them and *NO* their foods are *NOT* equivalent to Pedigree and Ol' Roy.
> 
> California Natural can be a good long term choice, sure but I think your vet is trying to calm your dog's system first to see if it is indeed diet related. I believe your choices are the above diet, Science Diet's d/d, i/d or z/d or you could do something homemade, your bvet can advise you on a homemade short term diet to rest the system.
> 
> Please do not discount what your vet is doing, you may not be thrilled with the choices but remember it is short term so your vet can find out if it is indeed diet related, this will not be your dog's long term diet and after a rest you should be able to return to what you want to feed.
> 
> Oh, beet pulp is your friend in this situation IMO. It is not aggravating this situation but is in fact providing actions that help the gut heal and recover...it is not sugar, it is not some sevret way to cover up stool issues, it is simply a great moderately fermentable fiber that helps produce short chain fatty acids in the intestines that in turn produce the gut's perferred colonic cells that keep it healthy. I can explain this in depth to if you would like me to. Just let me know how far you want me to go.
> 
> I realize what I have just written is going to cause a storm of comments. If you would like to talk to me away from that feel free to private message me.
> 
> Hope your dog feels better real soon.


I don't want to start anything because it's a waste of time and learning so out of curiosity why do you trust Iams an like them?

And as far as by-products they're the left overs, the rejects; beaks, claws, feathers. How does grade have anything to do with them?


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## SaharaNight Boxers

And Duke always did well on this poop wise. It has a pretty easy ingredient list, not rich. 

Blue Buffalo - Large Breed All Natural Dry Dog Food

You might want to check out there Basics formulas too. They're made for sensitive stomachs and are pretty much LID.


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## TTs Towel

SaharaNight Boxers said:


> I don't want to start anything because it's a waste of time and learning so out of curiosity why do you trust Iams an like them?
> 
> And as far as by-products they're the left overs, the rejects; beaks, claws, feathers. How does grade have anything to do with them?


Dont want to start anything either but chicken by product meal labeled as the following by AAFCO: Chicken By-Product Meal - consists of the ground, rendered, clean parts of the carcass of slaughtered chicken, such as necks, feet, undeveloped eggs and intestines, exclusive of feathers, except in such amounts as might occur unavoidable in good processing practice.


All of that is actually beneficial for the dog whether it's appetizing to an individual or not. The raw forum is full of people that feed all of these items.


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## TTs Towel

PS: If anyone has any question about the digestibility of corn products go check out the ingredients forum where I've posted several abstracts to studies from peer reviewed journals. Contrary to popular belief (on forums anyway) real research is not done by reading up on dogfoodadvisor or truthaboutpetfood...


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## Kibblelady

SaharaNight Boxers said:


> I don't want to start anything because it's a waste of time and learning so out of curiosity why do you trust Iams an like them?
> 
> And as far as by-products they're the left overs, the rejects; beaks, claws, feathers. How does grade have anything to do with them?


Well as for your first question Iams has been a forefront of canine and feline nutritional research for years, they pay for this, they fund it and then share the results with all the other companies by releasing the results. So, any pet food you buy from *any* manufacturer is basing their formulations on Iams, Hills, Royal Canin or Gaines research. Iams figured many things out long before all of these new companies and paid for it. I mention paying for it because none of these new companies are paying for any kind of research at all, none. They are not researching the glycemic index and how it relates to kibble and it's effect on dogs or it's implication on future diabetic animals. They are not researching how all these novel proteins being used today are digested and utilized, I could go on and on, these newer companies are only researching marketing and how to get you to buy their product. Sorry to be blunt nut it is the truth. My age shows here because I remember the time when Iams and Eukanuba were the go to foods for breeders and dog fanciers. They paved the way....what do they get for that? Maligned, disrespected and bad mouthed. IMO it is really unnecessary, it is just another pet food with a really long history though. I really am irked when I see people comparing Iams to Pedigree and Ol' Roy...these foods are so very different it isn't even funny, very different. If you want me to expound on that just let me know and I will. I have no reason to distrust Iams, none at all. I remember when this whole "dog food revolution" started and Iams was maligned and attacked for using beet pulp when that was viewed as "bad." They were looked down upon for using corn because that was viewed as "bad." Etc etc....the company has not done anything bad to anyone... the bad attitude toward them now is simply "inherited" and passed down and most people today do not even know why it is there to begin with, they just know they should hate Iams.

By-products? What gives you the idea that this is always "left overs" as you put it? Beaks, feet ect? Really? Who has told you this? A by product manufacturer has not told you this nor has a pet food manufacturer. Have you looked up the AAFCO definition of by products? Consider the fact that every pet food manufacturer has to call an ingredient by what the AAFCO accepted name for it is. Part of an animal, not the whole animal? It's a by product... here is the definition

*Chicken By-Product Meal* - consists of the ground, rendered, clean parts of the carcass of slaughtered chicken, such as necks, feet, undeveloped eggs and intestines, exclusive of feathers, except in such amounts as might occur unavoidable in good processing practice.

Think about if you fed a whole chicken to your dog...I know it sounds nuts but think about it. Are they going to reject the neck, feet, undeveloped eggs contained inside the chicken, the gut or the carcass? No, they wouldn't. Sure the chicken you would throw your dog would be unprocessed and not in a meal form but it is still the same thing, not exactlly but you get my point. Heck original BARF feeders were feeding chicken necks and backs to their dogs...these are by products.

Where does that say beaks and left overs? Exclusive of feathers...not inclusive. This is the huge problem with people not trusting this industry, people passing around inaccurate information (this is not directed at SarahNight Boxers personally) and then it getting passed on and so forth and so forth. By products are not some rotten chunks of flesh mixed with beaks, feather and feet that are ground up and cooked...that is simply not what it is at all. Why is it okay to assume that the entire industry is lying but that these newer foods that purposely are creating formulations to appease the people that are distrustful are telling the truth? Why do people believe this? Honestly? Think about it, these new foods are using the same manufacturing plants, they are using the same nutritional information...they are just purposely using ingredients that impress a pet owner and they are charging them crazy amounts for it as well. Do I think they are doing something wrong? Yes and no...yes because they are manipulating people and using their emotions to get their business but no because it is business and they want to make money and that is the point of marketing and studying the pool of targeted consumers.... some companies just have not done this and continue to do what they have always done in spite of everything that has been going on. I am not silly to trust the older companies... I do not think other's are silly to trust the newer ones. I just am putting my stock in different ideals and have researched enough for 12 years to know I do not need to feed these newer foods to my dogs, they are doing great on older ideals. Seriously, you may not agree and that's fine, but at least think about and ponder about what I am writing.


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## tem_sat

TTs Towel said:


> The raw forum is full of people that feed all of these items.


Excuse the off topic response to the above quote:
Keep in mind, there is a big difference between the offal I receive from my local farmer who raises pastured chickens as compared to factory farmed industrial chicken by-products. Under no circumstances would I even remotely consider feeding them raw and no, I would not exactly consider them to be "beneficial".


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## Kibblelady

TTs Towel said:


> PS: If anyone has any question about the digestibility of corn products go check out the ingredients forum where I've posted several abstracts to studies from peer reviewed journals. Contrary to popular belief (on forums anyway) real research is not done by reading up on dogfoodadvisor or truthaboutpetfood...


Thank you! Lol reading posts like yours is what caused me to join this forum. Seeing that I am not alone was very comforting lol l:thumb:


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## Kibblelady

tem_sat said:


> Excuse the off topic response to the above quote:
> Keep in mind, there is a big difference between the offal I receive from my local farmer who raises pastured chickens as compared to factory farmed industrial chicken by-products. Under no circumstances would I even remotely consider feeding them raw and no, I would not exactly consider them to be "beneficial".


I understand what you are saying but basically in a nutshell this is the same chicken my family eats a few times a week..... there is a big difference in the things you stated... I like grass raised beef, I don't always eat that though, it's very expensive. The steaks from Walmart lately have been amazing and I am very impressed with them, my dog would love it too if I gave them one lol These "protein sources" are beneficial like it or not.... maybe not preferable to you and that's fine but this is what my kids eat and if it is okay for my kids my dog can eat it.


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## DaViking

Breathing Borla said:


> The vet said this food is so easy to digest you don't even have to mix it over, you can just switch.
> 
> I thought maybe one of the single protein California naturals might work so I may look into that.


Your vet is correct, it is very easy to digest and that is the whole point here. A LID/single protein diet, as you suggest, is not necessarily easy to digest. That is not their purpose. Right now your vet is trying to stop the vomiting by suggesting a therapeutic diet based on easy digestible corn, rice and chicken + fos. Don't shy away from corn, by-product meals or beet pulp. Processed corn is highly digestible, by-product meals can be a little more all over the place but in this case it doesn't matter that much. Beet pulp is a well proven source of dietary fiber, soluble and insoluble. Some will call it "filler", absolutely not true, it's a functional ingredient. Rarely do a dog need to stay permanently on a therapeutic diet. If she responds well to the diet you should look for something easy digestible with a similar profile, at least ballpark similar. Doesn't need to include corn and by-product meals.

All this being said. I am not sure I understand how severe the vomiting is? Could all this be due to overfeeding of an extremely energy rich diet? Treats? Is there some "routine" going on around the time of vomiting you are missing? How long have the vomiting been going on for?


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## DaViking

Kibblelady said:


> I mention paying for it because none of these new companies are paying for any kind of research at all, none. They are not researching the glycemic index and how it relates to kibble and it's effect on dogs or it's implication on future diabetic animals.


I agree with everything you said in your long answer. Coming from an European working dog background I know the proven qualities coming from companies like Royal-Canin. That's not an easy sell anymore in many circles! I don't like everything they have done lately but that's besides the point here. Anyways, I picked the above quote just to get it out there that some of these smaller new companies do participate in serious research in a few areas. Horizon Pet Nutrition (Legacy, Pulsar, Complete, Amicus) is teaming up with University of Saskatchewan’s Western College of Veterinary Medicine now to conduct studies on the health benefits of pulses in petfood. Yes, it is also supported by the local pulse industry. Not shocking since this part of Canada is a leading supplier of legumes to the rest of the world. Nevertheless, it is a serious effort and will only lead to better understanding of the use of pulses and the data will be available for all. I'll post more when I have further info. Just thought I'd share.


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## DaneMama

The description of chicken by-products is vague. "Cleaned portions of slaughtered chickens" can be anything. The carcass is the WHOLE bird cleaned of whatever is used for people. That can include the beak, head and feet. Not ideal and one thing of certain....hardly any meat. While bones and offal have a ton of nutrition, it's not a good source for overall nutrition. The only real source of meat is the fish meal, which is made from whole fish. What kind of fish? Probably not the kinds you want. A named fish meal would be better because you'd know where it's coming from. 

Just not a good food IMO.


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## DaViking

DaneMama said:


> The description of chicken by-products is vague. "Cleaned portions of slaughtered chickens" can be anything. The carcass is the WHOLE bird cleaned of whatever is used for people. That can include the beak, head and feet. Not ideal and one thing of certain....hardly any meat. While bones and offal have a ton of nutrition, it's not a good source for overall nutrition. The only real source of meat is the fish meal, which is made from whole fish. What kind of fish? Probably not the kinds you want. A named fish meal would be better because you'd know where it's coming from.
> 
> Just not a good food IMO.


"Good food" in what context? Keep in mind this is a constructed therapeutic formula. Carb rich, easy digestion, low acid. There are specific goals attached to feeding this specific formulation. The goals outweigh individual ingredients, at least to the extent of them not being harmful in the amount present. Neither the by-product meal nor the unnamed fish meal is harmful. Increase "your" meat content and you will increase acid, the amount of meat is set for a reason here. This is proven and tested over years and years for specific conditions. Iams found that a by-product meal in those exact amounts was most appropriate based on it's unique characteristics. The nitrogen is there, some of the modest amount of proteins are coming from corn and rice anyway, it is not coming from feathers. However, I questioned the use of ethoxyquin earlier. This food is not meant to be a permanent solution.


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## bett

while i generally feel that food is crap, since rex's liver issue, they wanted him on the ld formula. it's garbage but it doesn't have copper, and has other stuff that supposedly supports healthy liver. and it seems to be working. so while i will eventually home cook , they don't want me to do it (yet) and this food, somehow, is helping.

there are times like these, that i actually think the vets know what they are talking about. it's a "fix" as was said, not for long term feeding.


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## SaharaNight Boxers

There's too many to quote so if no one minds I'm just going to answer in one response. 

First, corn is a common allergen for dogs. I believe that if you process anything enough it will become digestible to some degree. If this corn is mashed the cooked a bunch, maybe it's digestible. But, if I fed it naturally (meaning not processed or cooked a bunch) I would probably see it in poop, therefore I wouldn't feed it. Some dogs can eat veggies and not have stuff in their poop, others can eat them and they are in their poop. It's one of those things to me. 

As far as Iams thanks for answering. I understand what you're saying about leading research, but I believe their research is more to help them sell more products instead of actually helping dogs.

My main problem is the cheap ingredients they use. Instead of by-products which are cheap to use and you never know how much of what is really in there why not use-eggs, chicken entrails, chicken necks, etc. Same with corn grits, brewers rice. Why not just use corn and rice then?


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## Breathing Borla

WOW

thanks for all the replies and staying somewhat on topic, LOL

to answer a few questions, I am not overfeeding her with the EVO, I have had her on this for years and have it down perfect, she maintains perfect weight (where the vet wants her 60lbs) and never gets softies. I measure precisely every meal

She is vomiting about once a week, which started after teh baby came home. I noticed that she doesn't want to run as much and is not drinking quite as much water because of that.

I will stay away from the Acana for now but I may come back to that when I turn to a long term food, I like the looks of the lamb and apple singles. A little lower protein and richness down from the monster EVO.

You guys have calmed me down about the Iams and I may try it out. If it's that easily digestible (like the vet said) and the ingredients are ok short term, then I guess I should try it.

although i have nothing to back it up, I really feel this is due to behavialr changes from the baby being here. This is just a guess but this started after she got her. Roxy was the star of the family and I think she maybe is stressed out that she is in second now.

she does like the baby and when she starts to cry she runs over and licks her face as to say, it ok, I'm taking care of you, LOL, what a great dog.

I explained in detail the interactions of Roxy and the baby and he said she may have high nerves since she can act like a protective worried mother.

He said he has had cases when the dog will actually go into nursery and check the crib, and if the baby is gone, they freak out.

God , I love dogs, I hope this comes around as Roxy is only 6 and I hope to have many more years together, I am honestly just worried. The vet says he is happy with her overall health so we have some time to experiment.


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## Kibblelady

DaneMama said:


> The description of chicken by-products is vague. "Cleaned portions of slaughtered chickens" can be anything. The carcass is the WHOLE bird cleaned of whatever is used for people. That can include the beak, head and feet. Not ideal and one thing of certain....hardly any meat. While bones and offal have a ton of nutrition, it's not a good source for overall nutrition. The only real source of meat is the fish meal, which is made from whole fish. What kind of fish? Probably not the kinds you want. A named fish meal would be better because you'd know where it's coming from.
> 
> Just not a good food IMO.


"Can" the important word here (I I still do not agree with your assessment sorry) Why is it that anytime a person on this topic thinks "can" then it means "definitely" or "bad" automatically?

I see your other comments often...it really does not mean all you think it does. You put stock in that and I guess it makes you feel comfortable, but it really is just like a script that many repeat. This is what these new companies are using to get consumers to use their products. They take notice of beliefs, no matter how incorrect they may be, and they then use that belief and find a way to "comply" with it in order to look better in a consumers eye...meanwhile the company that sticks by the actual facts and does not change their course or alter anything is viewed as "bad" or not caring.... it is bothersome to me and some others. 

As I said before realize the sometimes difficult condition of having to use an AAFCO approved name for an ingredient. People think that these definitions are so specific but they aren't and the manufacturer has to decide which one applies. I can explain more about this if anyone wants me too?

Saying the referenced food is "not good" is really just your opinion and what an opinion is based on is what matters to me, I don't know how it is with others.


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## Kibblelady

bett said:


> there are times like these, that i actually think the vets know what they are talking about. it's a "fix" as was said, not for long term feeding.


Exactly Bett, vet's know how to feed *sick* animals, this is what they study. They do not study "product selection" or "ingredient thoughts and feelings." It is obvious from some comments on this very thread that others who think they know "better" had no idea why this formula was selected or what it does. This is what I look at...the chemistry angle, the physiology angle and function of food components in the body as well as formulations. These things usually have nothing in common with the typical topic discussions seen (as far as advice on how to select a food or how dogfoodanalysis rates diets.)


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## MollyWoppy

BB, regarding the lack of energy, are you sure the hot weather has nothing to do with that? All the dogs down here slow down terribly over summer and spark right back up as soon as the weather cools down a touch. 
And, vomiting once a week, well to be honest, if Mol did that, if she had been on the same food for years without any other problems and I'd had her vet checked, I wouldn't be too worried, in my book once a week isn't that often.
My other thought is, and correct me if I'm wrong, but I would think that if a particular kibble is causing a dog to throw up, and if that dog is eating that particular kibble everyday, then wouldn't that dog vomit everyday?


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## bett

Kibblelady said:


> Exactly Bett, vet's know how to feed *sick* animals, this is what they study. They do not study "product selection" or "ingredient thoughts and feelings." It is obvious from some comments on this very thread that others who think they know "better" had no idea why this formula was selected or what it does. This is what I look at...the chemistry angle, the physiology angle and function of food components in the body as well as formulations. These things usually have nothing in common with the typical topic discussions seen (as far as advice on how to select a food or how dogfoodanalysis rates diets.)


i never think my vet knows all that much about nutrition and we have had umpteen conversations about it. he doesn't deny it. however, for a "situation" and short term, i can cope giving this prescription food. both he and the internist were adamant and they went to vet school, not me. tho there are times i disagree, this time i'm not. 
and as i said, this isn't forever.this is not about how good a food it is, it is about how it operates when the dog is ill.


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## Breathing Borla

MollyWoppy said:


> BB, regarding the lack of energy, are you sure the hot weather has nothing to do with that? All the dogs down here slow down terribly over summer and spark right back up as soon as the weather cools down a touch.
> And, vomiting once a week, well to be honest, if Mol did that, if she had been on the same food for years without any other problems and I'd had her vet checked, I wouldn't be too worried, in my book once a week isn't that often.
> My other thought is, and correct me if I'm wrong, but I would think that if a particular kibble is causing a dog to throw up, and if that dog is eating that particular kibble everyday, then wouldn't that dog vomit everyday?


I am not sure about anything right now, it could be the heat, but in years past she seemed to want to run anyway. She has been vet checked, that's why we are tinkering around with food issues.

She has never thrown up once a week before, so I am concerned about it. She won't eat in the morning during these episodes and and you can hear her stomach churning. She did have the squirts a few times but that has been really limited


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## DaneMama

Kibblelady, I'll agree to disagree with you from here on out. I've been to many lectures, seminars, and conferences on nutrition and I've heard/read/experienced pretty much everything you've told me so far. I've read things published by kibble companies and vets and research trials...I've formed my own opinion. I have a background in science and I don't believe the studies done on dog foods are accurate, logical or even sufficient. That is of you can actually FIND the research articles with hypotheses, variables, data analysis, etc without paying for them. 

AFFCO standards are a joke. Their feeding trial regulations even more so. Stating that AFFCO says its ok or sufficient means zip squat to me. 

BB- bringing a baby into the home is a HUGE change for a dog. It's very stressful on them and different dogs show it differently. I can't remember what diagnostic work you've had done on her...full blood work? X-rays? Etc? I'd definitely lean toward behavioral stress causing symptoms rather than medical if diagnostics don't show anything significant. Because if nothing had changed in her diet but her environment has changed drastically my suspicion is stress induced issues.


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## Kibblelady

SaharaNight Boxers said:


> There's too many to quote so if no one minds I'm just going to answer in one response.
> 
> First, corn is a common allergen for dogs. I believe that if you process anything enough it will become digestible to some degree. If this corn is mashed the cooked a bunch, maybe it's digestible. But, if I fed it naturally (meaning not processed or cooked a bunch) I would probably see it in poop, therefore I wouldn't feed it. Some dogs can eat veggies and not have stuff in their poop, others can eat them and they are in their poop. It's one of those things to me.
> 
> As far as Iams thanks for answering. I understand what you're saying about leading research, but I believe their research is more to help them sell more products instead of actually helping dogs.
> 
> My main problem is the cheap ingredients they use. Instead of by-products which are cheap to use and you never know how much of what is really in there why not use-eggs, chicken entrails, chicken necks, etc. Same with corn grits, brewers rice. Why not just use corn and rice then?


Actually corn is not a common allergen for dogs...no study or fact supports this at all. The common allergens are beef, chicken, wheat and others.

Processed corn has been proven over and over and over again to be highly digestibility (in the high 90 percentile) and very well tolerated. BV value of course is not the same as animal protein but is good. Of course raw corn would not be digested, no raw vegetable really is much at all. Dogs cannot digest plant cell walls, they lack the enzymes to accomplish this. This is why all vegetables and grains must be cooked/processed for dogs to derive the nutrition from them.

You may want to think that Iams's research is about profit but that is not so, the amount of money and resources they put into this area is enormous. If it were about profit they would not be doing it and would let Hills and RC pay for it instead.... look into their research department it is huge and has been for years.

They should use eggs, entrails and necks? This is what is contained in by-product meals among other things. You are basically talking about semantics, you do not like the term "by product" because you have been conditioned not to like it. You really have no true knowledge of what is in a by product meal and this is why this kind of thing happens. People without this specific knowledge write all kinds of things to influence others (not talking about you). Websites, blogs, articles, magazine articles and books...it is everywhere but, much of it is false and many are the victims of this problem.

Corn grits are processed and very, highly digestible as well as having other key benefits in this case. Brewers rice is simply rice fragments that are not "pretty" enough to put into bags of rice for sale to human consumers, it *is* rice. It is called Brewers rice because it was most often purchased by brewers in the past. It has less nutrients because it is incomplete kernels but is still fine for inclusion in a pet diet. Why pay for a more expensive rice which would drive the price for the consumer up when it is not necessary? Because it looks "better" on the ingredient panel? This is not a reason to do that. It is about a complete diet that contains the right nutrients that are available for assimilation not a "pretty" ingredient panel.

Think about when we go to the clothing store... some people want to have name brand articles of clothing, that's fine. But the person that decides to go to Walmart and buy an outfit also has clothing to wear and also has more money in their pocket. The name brand, while nice and makes us feel good about having, is still just a shirt or just pants. The difference is how one feels when wearing it, both do the job though.


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## Kibblelady

DaneMama said:


> Kibblelady, I'll agree to disagree with you from here on out. I've been to many lectures, seminars, and conferences on nutrition and I've heard/read/experienced pretty much everything you've told me so far. I've read things published by kibble companies and vets and research trials...I've formed my own opinion. I have a background in science and I don't believe the studies done on dog foods are accurate, logical or even sufficient. That is of you can actually FIND the research articles with hypotheses, variables, data analysis, etc without paying for them.
> 
> AFFCO standards are a joke. Their feeding trial regulations even more so. Stating that AFFCO says its ok or sufficient means zip squat to me.
> 
> BB- bringing a baby into the home is a HUGE change for a dog. It's very stressful on them and different dogs show it differently. I can't remember what diagnostic work you've had done on her...full blood work? X-rays? Etc? I'd definitely lean toward behavioral stress causing symptoms rather than medical if diagnostics don't show anything significant. Because if nothing had changed in her diet but her environment has changed drastically my suspicion is stress induced issues.


Dane I do not remember called AAFCO standard "okay or sufficient"? Did I do that? The AAFCO as you know is just an organization created by the food companies to sort of group everyone together and get on the same page in the industry. While yes they really do not do things that actually umm test a food exactly or really gauge its usefulness or function it is something, which is better than nothing. Do not make the mistake of thinking that I think the pet food industry is perfect in this country, I don't. I am simply pointing out things I am seeing. I do not expect you to "agree" with me, that is not my goal at all. This is a discussion and many other people are reading these posts not just you and I. As for feeding trials can you please point me in the direction of a premade raw feeding study that has been done? I seriously cannot find one and I would be interested in reading that. I also have read so many studies it makes my head spin but I have never paid for them.... and I don't feel I have missed anything so I am confused by you saying that?

Also, do not think I am anti-raw. I am not. I understand it and just have not chosen to feed that way. I respect all successful manners of feeding our pets, to each their own.


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## DaViking

DaneMama said:


> AFFCO standards are a joke. Their feeding trial regulations even more so. Stating that AFFCO says its ok or sufficient means zip squat to me.


I don't think many who post here are on a level where discussing AAFCO compliance makes much sense or hold any value. It's more or less a business friendly tweak of NRC's guidelines and should be treated as such. It might have some minimal value in that it curbs an absolute "wild west" industry but that's about it imo.


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## SaharaNight Boxers

The way I look at it if I was a dog, a carnivore as Iams says, I wouldn't want to eat a bunch of corn and rice in a bag mixed with some potentially unsafe chemicals. There's ethoxyquin, sodium hexametaphosate. 

And yes, I'm saying why not individually list? Then you actually know the percentages and what you are actually getting. You could be getting all refuse still, only feathers are excluded. 

I'm just going to stop with the corn because you're obviously set in your ways. 

The biggest joke is that Iams says they cater to feed a carnivore diet and then make a bag of corn!


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## SaharaNight Boxers

To the OP, this might help hopefully. You just add hot water, same as floating a kibble. 

Simple Remedy for Upset Stomach - eVitamins.com - Lowest Price


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## TTs Towel

SaharaNight Boxers said:


> First, corn is a common allergen for dogs.


First, food allergy is not NEARLY as common as forum folk would have you believe. Atopy (environmental allergies) is WAY more common. 

"Food allergy is ~10% as common as atopy in dogs and about as common as atopy in cats."
-- Merck Veterinary Manual

Now that that's out of the way we'll address corn. It gets blamed first when it shouldnt be. Sure, of the FEW dogs that are actually food allergic, there will be a percentage allergic to corn. But it does not top the list like people on the forums would claim.

"The most common food allergens for dogs are: beef, dairy, and wheat. These three ingredients account for 68% of canine food allergies. The most common food allergens in cats are: beef, dairy, and fish. These three ingredients account for 80% of feline food allergies."
01 Food Allergy Myths - VeterinaryPartner.com - a VIN company!


So, we can say that corn may make up maybe 10%-15% of all food allergy (and that's def giving it the benefit of the doubt), which in itself is only 10% of all allergic dogs. 15% of 10% = 1.5% of allergic dogs are allergic to corn. But, someone comes on here and says they have an allergic, itchy dog and you get 400 responses that want to blame corn.


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## Kibblelady

SaharaNight Boxers said:


> The way I look at it if I was a dog, a carnivore as Iams says, I wouldn't want to eat a bunch of corn and rice in a bag mixed with some potentially unsafe chemicals. There's ethoxyquin, sodium hexametaphosate.
> 
> And yes, I'm saying why not individually list? Then you actually know the percentages and what you are actually getting. You could be getting all refuse still, only feathers are excluded.
> 
> I'm just going to stop with the corn because you're obviously set in your ways.
> 
> The biggest joke is that Iams says they cater to feed a carnivore diet and then make a bag of corn!


Well you are of course entitled to your opinion, my concern is passing it as fact. Raw feeders do not like myths stated about their foods, nor do people with "high end" Kibbles....it causes arguments and such.. So is this Sodium Hexametaphosphate the new "bad" ingredient? There are always new ones, after this one there will be another, it never ends. What formulas contain ethoxyquin?

Of course a bag of Iams is not a bag of corn....but eh. BTW I do not feed Iams in case anyone was wondering lolsodsodium hexametaphosateium


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## DaViking

SaharaNight Boxers said:


> The way I look at it if I was a dog, a carnivore as Iams says, I wouldn't want to eat a bunch of corn and rice in a bag


It's a therapeutic formula for dogs with GI issues. Feeding dogs processed corn and rice carbohydrates as two main ingredients in a formula gives them access to easy energy with minimal digestive stress. Minimal production of acid. What do you suggest they replace those ingredients with? Meat?



SaharaNight Boxers said:


> I'm just going to stop with the corn because you're obviously set in your ways.


I don't think it is fair to claim others are so "set in your ways" when you are the one that repeated some old false myths about corn without providing any credible data backing it up. If something is "set" it's this old myth that keeps coming back.



SaharaNight Boxers said:


> The biggest joke is that Iams says they cater to feed a carnivore diet and then make a bag of corn!


It's not a bag of corn. It's a carefully formulated and balanced product intended to assist dogs in need of help. It works and until you can prove otherwise you should stop taking cheap jabs.


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## SaharaNight Boxers

The Sodium phosphate is man made and has no nutritional value. I'm pretty sure you know about ethoxyquin. Both are in there. 

I would replace it with chicken and rice. 

I don't think that having a bit of corn is bad all the time, but when all the food is is corn, that's bad. We are all entitled to our own opinions though. And I'm referencing all the formulas and their premium formulas. 

And sure it may work, Duke was on something like this for colonitis, but now I know there's better ways to solve the issues.


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## Breathing Borla

well guys,

i bit the bullet and feed her a whole meal with the IAMS (just now), I sure hope I'm not making a mistake but I will trust the vet. I think when I get these issues resolved I will go with a less dense and rich food, maybe a single protein from Acana which is down to 25% protein from EVOs 42%. I would maybe still consider staying on EVO if this seems to calm down but I really not sure. The Acana foods look really good but she did really bad on orijec adult so after looking at the Acana and orijen they seem different.

first things first, well see if its the food issue. The vet said this IAMS is so easy to digest that you can just switch cold turkey and you don't have to fade it in a normal food swtich procedures.

wish me and Roxy luck


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## Kibblelady

SaharaNight Boxers said:


> The Sodium phosphate is man made and has no nutritional value. I'm pretty sure you know about ethoxyquin. Both are in there.
> 
> I would replace it with chicken and rice.
> 
> I don't think that having a bit of corn is bad all the time, but when all the food is is corn, that's bad. We are all entitled to our own opinions though. And I'm referencing all the formulas and their premium formulas.
> 
> And sure it may work, Duke was on something like this for colonitis, but now I know there's better ways to solve the issues.


Wait, you did not reference sodium phosphate, you referenced sodium hexametaphosphate, which is it you are questioning? I also asked which formulas of Iams have the ethoxyquin in them?I am not going to comment on what you would replace the corn grits in this formula with because I am not a vet and there are too many variables to what needs to be here...personally with my understanding of it, I would use eggs, but that's just me.


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## Kibblelady

Breathing Borla said:


> well guys,
> 
> i bit the bullet and feed her a whole meal with the IAMS (just now), I sure hope I'm not making a mistake but I will trust the vet. I think when I get these issues resolved I will go with a less dense and rich food, maybe a single protein from Acana which is down to 25% protein from EVOs 42%. I would maybe still consider staying on EVO if this seems to calm down but I really not sure. The Acana foods look really good but she did really bad on orijec adult so after looking at the Acana and orijen they seem different.
> 
> first things first, well see if its the food issue. The vet said this IAMS is so easy to digest that you can just switch cold turkey and you don't have to fade it in a normal food swtich procedures.
> 
> wish me and Roxy luck


Good luck guys! Keep us updated as your story is interesting to a number of us


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## Roo

> Actually corn is not a common allergen for dogs...no study or fact supports this at all. The common allergens are beef, chicken, wheat and others.





> Now that that's out of the way we'll address corn. It gets blamed first when it shouldnt be. Sure, of the FEW dogs that are actually food allergic, there will be a percentage allergic to corn. But it does not top the list like people on the forums would claim.
> 
> "The most common food allergens for dogs are: beef, dairy, and wheat. These three ingredients account for 68% of canine food allergies. The most common food allergens in cats are: beef, dairy, and fish. These three ingredients account for 80% of feline food allergies."
> 01 Food Allergy Myths - VeterinaryPartner.com - a VIN company!


The food allergy myths information posted seems to be from 2001, perhaps information/opinion has changed since then. Both of you are saying that corn isn't a common food allergen, yet that doesn't seem to be the opinion I've been reading from vets in the dermatology field.

2010 Penn Veterinarian Medicine Conference, FOOD ALLERGY - WHAT YOU KNOW, WHAT YOU DON'T KNOW, AND WHAT YOU SHOULD KNOW, Page 152, by Anthony Yu, DVM, MS, DACVD, Associate Professor, Dermatology, University of Guelph, Ontario Veterinary College, Guelph, ON, Canada 
_"Confirmation of food allergy can only be determined by an elimination trial. The diet is restricted to specific food
determined by the animal's previous exposure and known reactions. Food items most commonly causing food allergy
include beef, milk, lamb, wheat, corn, chicken egg, soy, chicken in dogs, adding tuna and salmon to the list in cats."_
http://www.vet.upenn.edu/Portals/0/images/Calendar/PAC%202010%20-%20Proceedings.pdf

Northeast Veterinary Dermatology Specialists, Dr. Nina Shoulberg MS, DVM, Feb 2011, Food Allergies
_"Approximately 15% of allergic dogs and cats develop allergies to foods. Almost always, the allergy is to the protein in the diet. An animal can develop an allergy to any protein. It is not the amount, but the type of protein that is important. Dogs commonly develop allergies to beef, chicken, corn, dairy, eggs, soy and wheat, while cats often develop allergies to fish, dairy and beef."_
Food Allergies - Northeast Veterinary Dermatology Specialists

Animal Dermatology Referral Clinic, Dallas TX, FAQ page on Food allergy diets
_"Q: What are the most common food allergens? A: Beef, chicken, wheat, corn, soy, dairy, egg, and fish." _
Animal Dermatology Referral Clinic - Dietary elimination trial

Veterinary Partner, Carol S. Foil, DVM, MS, Diplomate A.C.V.D., Board-certified specialist through the American College of Veterinary Dermatology
_"Some pets develop specific hypersensitivities to components of their diets. The allergen usually is a major protein or carbohydrate ingredient such as beef, chicken, pork, corn, wheat, or soy."_
Itching and Allergy in Dogs - VeterinaryPartner.com - a VIN company!

Dr. Sandra Sargent, Vet dermatologist at Pittsburgh Vet Specialty and Emergency Center in Ohio Township
_"The vast majority of food allergies in pets are sensitivities to beef, dairy, wheat, corn, soy, chicken, turkey and eggs."_
Your Pet

Rocky Mountain Veterinary Dermatology
_"Several studies have shown that some ingredients are more likely to cause food allergies than others. The most common offenders in dog foods are beef, dairy products, chicken, lamb, fish, chicken eggs, corn, wheat, and soy. These are the most common ingredients in dog foods."_
http://www.rmvetderm.com/Understanding Food Allergies and Diet Trials.pdf

Animal Allergy and Ear Clinic, April 2012, Vet Dermatologist Dr. Amy Randall
_"The component of the food that the animal reacts to is the protein. Most common proteins include: beef, chicken, fish, egg, dairy, soy, corn, wheat, rice." _
Food Allergies in Cats and Dogs | Animal Allergy and Ear Clinic

Veterinary Q&A: Food allergies, Jan 2012, Dr. Stephen White, professor of dermatology at the University of California, Davis, School of Veterinary Medicine
_"The most common proven allergens in the dog are beef, chicken, milk, eggs, corn, wheat, and soy; in the cat, fish, beef, milk and milk products."_
Tails of Seattle | Veterinary Q&A: Food allergies | Seattle Times Newspaper


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## Kibblelady

Roo said:


> The food allergy myths information posted seems to be from 2001, perhaps information/opinion has changed since then. Both of you are saying that corn isn't a common food allergen, yet that doesn't seem to be the opinion I've been reading from vets in the dermatology field.
> 
> 2010 Penn Veterinarian Medicine Conference, FOOD ALLERGY - WHAT YOU KNOW, WHAT YOU DON'T KNOW, AND WHAT YOU SHOULD KNOW, Page 152, by Anthony Yu, DVM, MS, DACVD, Associate Professor, Dermatology, University of Guelph, Ontario Veterinary College, Guelph, ON, Canada
> _"Confirmation of food allergy can only be determined by an elimination trial. The diet is restricted to specific food
> determined by the animal's previous exposure and known reactions. Food items most commonly causing food allergy
> include beef, milk, lamb, wheat, corn, chicken egg, soy, chicken in dogs, adding tuna and salmon to the list in cats."_
> http://www.vet.upenn.edu/Portals/0/images/Calendar/PAC%202010%20-%20Proceedings.pdf
> 
> Northeast Veterinary Dermatology Specialists, Dr. Nina Shoulberg MS, DVM, Feb 2011, Food Allergies
> _"Approximately 15% of allergic dogs and cats develop allergies to foods. Almost always, the allergy is to the protein in the diet. An animal can develop an allergy to any protein. It is not the amount, but the type of protein that is important. Dogs commonly develop allergies to beef, chicken, corn, dairy, eggs, soy and wheat, while cats often develop allergies to fish, dairy and beef."_
> Food Allergies - Northeast Veterinary Dermatology Specialists
> 
> Animal Dermatology Referral Clinic, Dallas TX, FAQ page on Food allergy diets
> _"Q: What are the most common food allergens? A: Beef, chicken, wheat, corn, soy, dairy, egg, and fish." _
> Animal Dermatology Referral Clinic - Dietary elimination trial
> 
> Veterinary Partner, Carol S. Foil, DVM, MS, Diplomate A.C.V.D., Board-certified specialist through the American College of Veterinary Dermatology
> _"Some pets develop specific hypersensitivities to components of their diets. The allergen usually is a major protein or carbohydrate ingredient such as beef, chicken, pork, corn, wheat, or soy."_
> Itching and Allergy in Dogs - VeterinaryPartner.com - a VIN company!
> 
> Dr. Sandra Sargent, Vet dermatologist at Pittsburgh Vet Specialty and Emergency Center in Ohio Township
> _"The vast majority of food allergies in pets are sensitivities to beef, dairy, wheat, corn, soy, chicken, turkey and eggs."_
> Your Pet
> 
> Rocky Mountain Veterinary Dermatology
> _"Several studies have shown that some ingredients are more likely to cause food allergies than others. The most common offenders in dog foods are beef, dairy products, chicken, lamb, fish, chicken eggs, corn, wheat, and soy. These are the most common ingredients in dog foods."_
> http://www.rmvetderm.com/Understanding Food Allergies and Diet Trials.pdf
> 
> Animal Allergy and Ear Clinic, April 2012, Vet Dermatologist Dr. Amy Randall
> _"The component of the food that the animal reacts to is the protein. Most common proteins include: beef, chicken, fish, egg, dairy, soy, corn, wheat, rice." _
> Food Allergies in Cats and Dogs | Animal Allergy and Ear Clinic
> 
> Veterinary Q&A: Food allergies, Jan 2012, Dr. Stephen White, professor of dermatology at the University of California, Davis, School of Veterinary Medicine
> _"The most common proven allergens in the dog are beef, chicken, milk, eggs, corn, wheat, and soy; in the cat, fish, beef, milk and milk products."_
> Tails of Seattle | Veterinary Q&A: Food allergies | Seattle Times Newspaper


You did notice that none of the above blurbs identified corn as the first allergen causing food? I believe most of them, without scrolling above, had it listed after beef, dairy, wheat etc right? The information on the web has it consistently listed as number one, it is not number one. Also too many people think their dog has an allergy and if they are eating a kibble with corn people immediately deem it the cause. Most dogs "reacting" are having a problem with the overall diet they are being fed or having an intolerance problem. Heck I encountered a woman online claiming her 12 week old puppy had a corn allergy...that was ridiculous. If only 15% of dogs actually have an allergy and corn is basically not named as a cause until like number 4 at least how is corn a "common allergen?" Are you following me? Corn is well digested and tolerated by dogs. I could go get a bunch of studies and quotes supporting this but they are very easy to find, PubMed is full of them. That is where I started when I researched it. It was eye opening to see that everything said about corn was not true....


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## Kat

I will never agree with feeding a dog food with its main ingredient being corn. Of course vet diets say corn is fine and highly digestible, but it pretty much comes out the same way it went in. Corn based kibble produces bigger poops than grain free... which also shows the dog/cat is not using everything in their food. My cats used to be on a prescription diet 3 years ago, their poops were huge and smelly. They now eat Acana praire, and their poops are soooo much smaller. 

_"Corn has been linked to many dog ailments such as allergies, joint swelling, bloat and there have been some cases of aflatoxin contamination associated with corn in dog food. The corn that is used in dog food is sometimes contaminated with mycotoxins (toxins from mold or fungi). Corn metabolizes in dogs similar to the way sugar metabolizes in humans. It's like feeding a child foods high in corn syrup. The dog is not going to be as healthy and may experience energy rushes, crashes, hyperactivity and a hard time concentrating. Studies have also shown that high doses of corn can inhibit serotonin in the brain. Serotonin is an important chemical that reduces stress and anxiety."_


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## NewYorkDogue

While dogs may be able to "digest" corn, the question, in my opinion, to ask is..."Is it species appropriate." If not, the price to pay in terms of digestion may be too high. 

Look at how cows are fed via factory farms in this country: tons of corn is fed to these animals whose systems were designed to digest grass. This article explains: INDUSTRIAL FARM ANIMAL PRODUCTION: The cost of corn-fed cattle | The Conservation Report

I just believe it's not nice to fool with Mother Nature...


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## Roo

I've never seen it stated as the number one food allergen, and technically that's not what you and T referenced in your posts, you clearly stated "not common", you didn't state "not the number one food allergen", of course it seems I'm splitting hairs here, as the vets in the field seem to state that corn is among the most common food allergens for dogs, whether number one or four. I agree about the food intolerances, I think I read somewhere from a vet dermatologist that food sensitivities are much more common than food allergies, and I would think that corn can be included as a possible food intolerance or sensitivity.

Yes corn can be technically digestible (in certain processed forms), a source of energy, protein, fatty acids etc, but as you pointed out earlier, there are more complete proteins, higher sources of energy (per gram), and higher sources of fatty acids for dogs in other food sources besides corn. I don't think corn is "evil", I just feel there are better food sources out there for what corn provides, I don't have an issue with carbs, however I do question the amounts and sometimes the quality of carbs used in a lot of commercial foods. I've read some of the studies out there and usually am less than impressed, especially the studies done or funded for by the dog food companies themselves on their own products, I know who else is gonna do them or pay for them, but I would be far less concerned about possible bias if they were independently done.


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## SaharaNight Boxers

Kibblelady said:


> Wait, you did not reference sodium phosphate, you referenced sodium hexametaphosphate, which is it you are questioning? I also asked which formulas of Iams have the ethoxyquin in them?I am not going to comment on what you would replace the corn grits in this formula with because I am not a vet and there are too many variables to what needs to be here...personally with my understanding of it, I would use eggs, but that's just me.


Sorry, I have to admit I just didn't want to write it out, but I meant the same one. And like I said this one that is being discussed has ethoxyquin.


----------



## Kibblelady

Kat said:


> I will never agree with feeding a dog food with its main ingredient being corn. Of course vet diets say corn is fine and highly digestible, but it pretty much comes out the same way it went in. Corn based kibble produces bigger poops than grain free... which also shows the dog/cat is not using everything in their food. My cats used to be on a prescription diet 3 years ago, their poops were huge and smelly. They now eat Acana praire, and their poops are soooo much smaller.
> 
> _"Corn has been linked to many dog ailments such as allergies, joint swelling, bloat and there have been some cases of aflatoxin contamination associated with corn in dog food. The corn that is used in dog food is sometimes contaminated with mycotoxins (toxins from mold or fungi). Corn metabolizes in dogs similar to the way sugar metabolizes in humans. It's like feeding a child foods high in corn syrup. The dog is not going to be as healthy and may experience energy rushes, crashes, hyperactivity and a hard time concentrating. Studies have also shown that high doses of corn can inhibit serotonin in the brain. Serotonin is an important chemical that reduces stress and anxiety."_


Honestly this wasn't about what you think, what others thinks or anyone's thoughts on corn at all. This was about Roxy and her owner figuring out what they were going to do in reference to their vet's advice. I really will not be dragged into another corn debate as it never ends and people want to hang on to their core like beliefs that it cannot be beneficial, I think there is a huge thread on the ingredient board for corn debate? I have my thoughts and knowledge on corn and that is what I shared with Roxy's owner. The choice is up to them what to do and they decided. I hope everything calms down with Roxy and she feels better really soon.

As far as stool size etc...this is largely based on fiber sources not on a dog pooing out "things it did not use."


----------



## Kat

Kibblelady said:


> Honestly this wasn't about what you think, what others thinks or anyone's thoughts on corn at all. This was about Roxy and her owner figuring out what they were going to do in reference to their vet's advice. I really will not be dragged into another corn debate as it never ends and people want to hang on to their core like beliefs that it cannot be beneficial, I think there is a huge thread on the ingredient board for corn debate? I have my thoughts and knowledge on corn and that is what I shared with Roxy's owner. The choice is up to them what to do and they decided. I hope everything calms down with Roxy and she feels better really soon.
> 
> *As far as stool size etc...this is largely based on fiber sources not on a dog pooing out "things it did not use*."


What do you think poop is? Its the leftover waste from what was eaten, the things the body didnt have use for. 

Of course everyone is entitled to their opinions, but dogs and cats dont eat corn in the wild, so why should it be in their kibble? I am not going to add anymore about the corn debate than that.


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## Kibblelady

SaharaNight Boxers said:


> Sorry, I have to admit I just didn't want to write it out, but I meant the same one. And like I said this one that is being discussed has ethoxyquin.


Okay...and it is one of the last two ingredients listed. I know what your problem with that is I am sure, I do not have the same issue with this....the amount is obviously very low. Oh, in the last two years has a study been done providing the damaging health effects on dogs of using ethoxyquin at preservative levels in pet foods? I would be seriously interested in that. Here is one that is published Safety of Ethoxyquin in Dog Foods here is the FDA notice of the lowering of the ppm of ethoyquin after a study by the manufacturer of ethoxyquin was shared FDA Requests That Ethoxyquin Levels Be Reduced In Dog Foods an article with more information http://www.petfoodindustry.com/Columns/Ingredient_Issues/2380.html I could find many of these but the truth lies there. many things in large amounts cause undesirable results, that doesn't make the substance "bad" or sinister. I know, I know, there is tons of articles online and in books and magazines calling this synthetic antioxidant dangerous..... check this out Dihydrogen Monoxide Research Division - dihydrogen monoxide info


All I can say is I try very hard to explain some things.... the amount of time and research I put into it is incredible. So no, these are not fleeting thoughts or uneducated ramblings. Actually that one site Information for pet food manufacturers: Petfood Industry has a ton of articles that many would find very interesting.

Hope everyone has a good night


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## Kibblelady

Kat said:


> What do you think poop is? Its the leftover waste from what was eaten, the things the body didnt have use for.
> 
> Of course everyone is entitled to their opinions, but dogs and cats dont eat corn in the wild, so why should it be in their kibble? I am not going to add anymore about the corn debate than that.


Stool is not that simple, you are over simplifying this way too much. No mention of fiber? Fiber is not meant to be digested and will have a huge effect on the form and size of the stool. Insoluble and soluble fibers have different effects of course. Fibers that pull in more water from the bowel tend to be bulkier than a stool which has less moisture of course. It is very complicated and may be a great idea for a separate thread.... in the case of stool "smaller" is not always "better." Large bulky stools are not great either but I am talking very large and bulky. Believe me I know exactly what poop is lol

There are many things dogs do not do "in the wild" but they do now.... if we shouldn't provide anything for them they could not find on their own why don't we just set them all free and hope they stop by for a visit?  (yes, a bit snarky but meant in a humorous manner lol)


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## Brian 6

Kibblelady said:


> Well as for your first question Iams has been a forefront of canine and feline nutritional research for years, they pay for this, they fund it and then share the results with all the other companies by releasing the results. So, any pet food you buy from *any* manufacturer is basing their formulations on Iams, Hills, Royal Canin or Gaines research. Iams figured many things out long before all of these new companies and paid for it. I mention paying for it because none of these new companies are paying for any kind of research at all, none. They are not researching the glycemic index and how it relates to kibble and it's effect on dogs or it's implication on future diabetic animals. They are not researching how all these novel proteins being used today are digested and utilized, I could go on and on, these newer companies are only researching marketing and how to get you to buy their product. Sorry to be blunt nut it is the truth. My age shows here because I remember the time when Iams and Eukanuba were the go to foods for breeders and dog fanciers. They paved the way....what do they get for that? Maligned, disrespected and bad mouthed. IMO it is really unnecessary, it is just another pet food with a really long history though. I really am irked when I see people comparing Iams to Pedigree and Ol' Roy...these foods are so very different it isn't even funny, very different. If you want me to expound on that just let me know and I will. I have no reason to distrust Iams, none at all. I remember when this whole "dog food revolution" started and Iams was maligned and attacked for using beet pulp when that was viewed as "bad." They were looked down upon for using corn because that was viewed as "bad." Etc etc....the company has not done anything bad to anyone... the bad attitude toward them now is simply "inherited" and passed down and most people today do not even know why it is there to begin with, they just know they should hate Iams.
> 
> By-products? What gives you the idea that this is always "left overs" as you put it? Beaks, feet ect? Really? Who has told you this? A by product manufacturer has not told you this nor has a pet food manufacturer. Have you looked up the AAFCO definition of by products? Consider the fact that every pet food manufacturer has to call an ingredient by what the AAFCO accepted name for it is. Part of an animal, not the whole animal? It's a by product... here is the definition
> 
> *Chicken By-Product Meal* - consists of the ground, rendered, clean parts of the carcass of slaughtered chicken, such as necks, feet, undeveloped eggs and intestines, exclusive of feathers, except in such amounts as might occur unavoidable in good processing practice.
> 
> Think about if you fed a whole chicken to your dog...I know it sounds nuts but think about it. Are they going to reject the neck, feet, undeveloped eggs contained inside the chicken, the gut or the carcass? No, they wouldn't. Sure the chicken you would throw your dog would be unprocessed and not in a meal form but it is still the same thing, not exactlly but you get my point. Heck original BARF feeders were feeding chicken necks and backs to their dogs...these are by products.
> 
> Where does that say beaks and left overs? Exclusive of feathers...not inclusive. This is the huge problem with people not trusting this industry, people passing around inaccurate information (this is not directed at SarahNight Boxers personally) and then it getting passed on and so forth and so forth. By products are not some rotten chunks of flesh mixed with beaks, feather and feet that are ground up and cooked...that is simply not what it is at all. Why is it okay to assume that the entire industry is lying but that these newer foods that purposely are creating formulations to appease the people that are distrustful are telling the truth? Why do people believe this? Honestly? Think about it, these new foods are using the same manufacturing plants, they are using the same nutritional information...they are just purposely using ingredients that impress a pet owner and they are charging them crazy amounts for it as well. Do I think they are doing something wrong? Yes and no...yes because they are manipulating people and using their emotions to get their business but no because it is business and they want to make money and that is the point of marketing and studying the pool of targeted consumers.... some companies just have not done this and continue to do what they have always done in spite of everything that has been going on. I am not silly to trust the older companies... I do not think other's are silly to trust the newer ones. I just am putting my stock in different ideals and have researched enough for 12 years to know I do not need to feed these newer foods to my dogs, they are doing great on older ideals. Seriously, you may not agree and that's fine, but at least think about and ponder about what I am writing.



I agree with everything that you have said. It is refreshing to see a well researched answer. This forum is lucky to have you.

I have been practicing for 28 years and unfortunately you CANNOT judge a food accurately by its 
label. We don't have information on the digestibility of the ingredients. As has been said, there are different qualities of by-products. We also can't tell if a certain ingredient has been added to balance the amino acid profile so that it is complete. The best I can tell you is to choose a company that you trust. Preferably one that has spent time and money doing research for thei diets. 

Some people will point out that some 'trusted' food companies used grains tainted with melamine from the Chinese. Unfortunately, before this, it had not occurred to anyone that a country would taint food with a poisonous substance to increase the protein test so that they would get paid more.

Food companies regularly tested their grains for toxins that one might expect to occur in them under certain conditions by nature, such a mould toxins.

Since this has happened Royal Canin has instituted a new testing procedure. Before a truck is unloaded it is tested by a spectrophotometer. This reading is then compared to a spectrophotometer reading from the PURE grain. Every pure substance has a unique spectrofetometer reading, a spectrofetometer finger print if you like. if the reading from the truck does not match that of the pure ingredient then the whole truck load is rejected. This test cannot tell what the impurity is or whether it is dangerous. All it tells Royal Canin is that it is not pure so it is rejected.

People, the grain that goes into your bread is not tested this thoroughly!

Plus, where do you think the producer takes this truck load of rejected grain? Do you think that they dump it because it does not meet Royal Canin's unique strict standards? 

Remember that just because you read it on a forum on the Internet does not mean that the opinion is knowledgeable or right. I trust a company that spends millions of dollars on research much more than anecdotal opinions or 'sounds bad to me' assertions.

IMO is pretty much worthless IMO unless it is coming from someone who has proper training or has done proper research in the field that you are interested in.

The sad thing for me as a veterinarian is that it is usually the concerned owners that are trying to do the best for thei dogs that get taken in my uneducated, unreseached, and sometimes dangerous opinions on the Internet. 

And yes, veterinarians don't know everything. There are many things that we don't know. The thing is, a person with knowledge about something tends to realize that they don't know everything about it, while someone with very little knowledge about something is sure that they know everything about it.

If you trust your veterinarian, then trust his recommendation for your dog. That being said, a veterinarian who has an interest and passion for nutrition will have done considerably more continuing education in nutrition and have considerably more knowledge than one who does not have this interest.

Veterinarians are people just like everyone else and there are better ones and worse ones, and each vet will have his/her area of expertise. You need to evaluate their recommendations BUT, please, make sure you evaluate their recommendations against other 'informed' opinions. You owe it to your dogs and yourselves.

One other thing. just because the dog has been eating a food for years without a problem does not mean that it is not a food problem. Dogs can and do develop food intolerances to certain ingredients over time.
If a dog develops an allergy to an ingredient, ask yourself, how many peanuts can a child who is allergic to peanuts have?

My advice in choosing a dog food is to go with a company that you trust. Preferably one that has backed their recipes on research not just on what sounds good. Then, once you have made your best choice, see how your dog does on it. No one food, or one ingredient is best for every dog.

Nutrition is a passion of mine and in my personal research I have found that food companies use vastly different formulas in determining how much to feed a dog. Most dog food bags advise you to feed too much. This is a simple example of the differences between companies. Dog energy requirement formulas are logarithmic, so if you see a dog food bag that has linear feeding instructions, eg a 10lb dog needs a cup of food and a 20 lb dog needs 2 cups of food then you know that they have not even done research into how much to feed dogs let alone in how to formulate their foods.

Anyway, I'll get off my soap box.

Please to see the many knowledgeable posts here. This is a good site with some really knowledgeable people willing to share their time. We are all very lucky.


----------



## Brian 6

DaViking said:


> It's a therapeutic formula for dogs with GI issues. Feeding dogs processed corn and rice carbohydrates as two main ingredients in a formula gives them access to easy energy with minimal digestive stress. Minimal production of acid. What do you suggest they replace those ingredients with? Meat?
> 
> 
> 
> I don't think it is fair to claim others are so "set in your ways" when you are the one that repeated some old false myths about corn without providing any credible data backing it up. If something is "set" it's this old myth that keeps coming back.
> 
> 
> 
> It's not a bag of corn. It's a carefully formulated and balanced product intended to assist dogs in need of help. It works and until you can prove otherwise you should stop taking cheap jabs.


What he says is true. Corn has a place in a properly balanced diet. Studies have shown that corn causes no more allergies than other ingredients.

It has been studied and researched and is not necessarily a 'filler'. That is not to say that some companies might use it I appropriately just like they can use any ingredient in appropriately. That is why it is important to choose a company that you trust, preferably one that bases its formulations on solid research, and combine that with evaluating your dog to see how he/she does on it.

Beware of trite logic like 'I've seen corn in my dog's poop therefore it is obvious that they cannot digest it'. If the kernel is not broken, you will see corn in human 'poo', even in cow manure. That is why farmers have to break the kernels before feeding corn to their cows if they want the cow to get maximum use out of it because any kernel that the cow fails to chew properly will not be digested.


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## Brian 6

DaneMama said:


> Kibblelady, I'll agree to disagree with you from here on out. I've been to many lectures, seminars, and conferences on nutrition and I've heard/read/experienced pretty much everything you've told me so far. I've read things published by kibble companies and vets and research trials...I've formed my own opinion. I have a background in science and I don't believe the studies done on dog foods are accurate, logical or even sufficient. That is of you can actually FIND the research articles with hypotheses, variables, data analysis, etc without paying for them.
> 
> AFFCO standards are a joke. Their feeding trial regulations even more so. Stating that AFFCO says its ok or sufficient means zip squat to me.
> 
> BB- bringing a baby into the home is a HUGE change for a dog. It's very stressful on them and different dogs show it differently. I can't remember what diagnostic work you've had done on her...full blood work? X-rays? Etc? I'd definitely lean toward behavioral stress causing symptoms rather than medical if diagnostics don't show anything significant. Because if nothing had changed in her diet but her environment has changed drastically my suspicion is stress induced issues.


Very good point about the environment. It may have triggered the whole thing. The point is though that getting rid of the baby is not an option, so investigating a diet change to a more digestible food is a good test. Unfortunately we don't have a 'test' to diagnose 'stress'. 

The good news is that the dog will adjust to the new environment so if it is the 'change' things should straighten themselves out. An easier to digest food may help while the dog adjusts to the new environment.


----------



## KittyKat

Brian 6 said:


> What he says is true. Corn has a place in a properly balanced diet. Studies have shown that corn causes no more allergies than other ingredients.
> 
> It has been studied and researched and is not necessarily a 'filler'. That is not to say that some companies might use it I appropriately just like they can use any ingredient in appropriately. That is why it is important to choose a company that you trust, preferably one that bases its formulations on solid research, and combine that with evaluating your dog to see how he/she does on it.
> 
> Beware of trite logic like 'I've seen corn in my dog's poop therefore it is obvious that they cannot digest it'. If the kernel is not broken, you will see corn in human 'poo', even in cow manure. That is why farmers have to break the kernels before feeding corn to their cows if they want the cow to get maximum use out of it because any kernel that the cow fails to chew properly will not be digested.


Why would corn have a place in the balanced diet of a hypercarnivore?


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## Kat

Brian 6 said:


> What he says is true. Corn has a place in a properly balanced diet. Studies have shown that corn causes no more allergies than other ingredients.
> 
> It has been studied and researched and is not necessarily a 'filler'. That is not to say that some companies might use it I appropriately just like they can use any ingredient in appropriately. That is why it is important to choose a company that you trust, preferably one that bases its formulations on solid research, and combine that with evaluating your dog to see how he/she does on it.
> 
> Beware of trite logic like 'I've seen corn in my dog's poop therefore it is obvious that they cannot digest it'. If the kernel is not broken, you will see corn in human 'poo', even in cow manure. That is why farmers have to break the kernels before feeding corn to their cows if they want the cow to get maximum use out of it because any kernel that the cow fails to chew properly will not be digested.


I know I said I wouldnt say anything else about corn, but really? Cows are designed to digest grass, not corn - thats what they were made for and that will never change. There is no "maximum use" when it comes to cows and corn.

_"Since cows are grazers and should be eating grass they have a hard time processing the corn. They need to be given antibiotics to keep them from getting sick long enough for them to go to slaughter. As a result of the cows being fed corn the meat they produce has a higher fat content than it would if the cows were fed grass. Corn-fed cows produce meat that is higher in the bad fatty acids and lower in the good fatty acids. Whereas grass-fed cows produce the opposite effect. Grass fed is higher in the good fats and lower in the bad fats. 

E. coli (Escherichia coli) live in the stomachs of corn-fed cows as the corn diet makes the cows’ digestive track more acidic. Whereas the digestive track of a grass-fed cow is not acidic enough for E. coli to live."_


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## DaViking

Roo said:


> The food allergy myths information posted seems to be from 2001, perhaps information/opinion has changed since then. Both of you are saying that corn isn't a common food allergen, yet that doesn't seem to be the opinion I've been reading from vets in the dermatology field.
> 
> 2010 Penn Veterinarian Medicine Conference, FOOD ALLERGY - WHAT YOU KNOW, WHAT YOU DON'T KNOW, AND WHAT YOU SHOULD KNOW, Page 152, by Anthony Yu, DVM, MS, DACVD, Associate Professor, Dermatology, University of Guelph, Ontario Veterinary College, Guelph, ON, Canada
> _"Confirmation of food allergy can only be determined by an elimination trial. The diet is restricted to specific food
> determined by the animal's previous exposure and known reactions. Food items most commonly causing food allergy
> include beef, milk, lamb, wheat, corn, chicken egg, soy, chicken in dogs, adding tuna and salmon to the list in cats."_
> http://www.vet.upenn.edu/Portals/0/images/Calendar/PAC%202010%20-%20Proceedings.pdf
> 
> Northeast Veterinary Dermatology Specialists, Dr. Nina Shoulberg MS, DVM, Feb 2011, Food Allergies
> _"Approximately 15% of allergic dogs and cats develop allergies to foods. Almost always, the allergy is to the protein in the diet. An animal can develop an allergy to any protein. It is not the amount, but the type of protein that is important. Dogs commonly develop allergies to beef, chicken, corn, dairy, eggs, soy and wheat, while cats often develop allergies to fish, dairy and beef."_
> Food Allergies - Northeast Veterinary Dermatology Specialists
> 
> Animal Dermatology Referral Clinic, Dallas TX, FAQ page on Food allergy diets
> _"Q: What are the most common food allergens? A: Beef, chicken, wheat, corn, soy, dairy, egg, and fish." _
> Animal Dermatology Referral Clinic - Dietary elimination trial
> 
> Veterinary Partner, Carol S. Foil, DVM, MS, Diplomate A.C.V.D., Board-certified specialist through the American College of Veterinary Dermatology
> _"Some pets develop specific hypersensitivities to components of their diets. The allergen usually is a major protein or carbohydrate ingredient such as beef, chicken, pork, corn, wheat, or soy."_
> Itching and Allergy in Dogs - VeterinaryPartner.com - a VIN company!
> 
> Dr. Sandra Sargent, Vet dermatologist at Pittsburgh Vet Specialty and Emergency Center in Ohio Township
> _"The vast majority of food allergies in pets are sensitivities to beef, dairy, wheat, corn, soy, chicken, turkey and eggs."_
> Your Pet
> 
> Rocky Mountain Veterinary Dermatology
> _"Several studies have shown that some ingredients are more likely to cause food allergies than others. The most common offenders in dog foods are beef, dairy products, chicken, lamb, fish, chicken eggs, corn, wheat, and soy. These are the most common ingredients in dog foods."_
> http://www.rmvetderm.com/Understanding Food Allergies and Diet Trials.pdf
> 
> Animal Allergy and Ear Clinic, April 2012, Vet Dermatologist Dr. Amy Randall
> _"The component of the food that the animal reacts to is the protein. Most common proteins include: beef, chicken, fish, egg, dairy, soy, corn, wheat, rice." _
> Food Allergies in Cats and Dogs | Animal Allergy and Ear Clinic
> 
> Veterinary Q&A: Food allergies, Jan 2012, Dr. Stephen White, professor of dermatology at the University of California, Davis, School of Veterinary Medicine
> _"The most common proven allergens in the dog are beef, chicken, milk, eggs, corn, wheat, and soy; in the cat, fish, beef, milk and milk products."_
> Tails of Seattle | Veterinary Q&A: Food allergies | Seattle Times Newspaper


First of all, kudos for actually taking the time to provide some meaningful background for your arguments, not to mention to add value regardless of view. More should follow your example if they think their claims could be remotely controversial.

Now, those various documents you quoted and linked to confirms what's been said earlier in this thread. Note that all these links/documents list pretty much all major ingredients found in dog food. They are all listed there, beef, chicken, lamb, eggs, turkey, pork, fish, wheat, soy, corn, rice and dairy. Not many other main ingredients left out from these documents. So, the only way to read these links and data provided by TT and others is that corn is not a major or common allergen. First, food related allergy cases are dwarfed compared to environmental causes. Then in the few cases left corn does not even make it to the "podium" of the worst offenders. In that light, the absolute beating corn have received in the last years online and elsewhere is crazy. There is zero reason against this massive anger against corn.


----------



## Roo

> First of all, kudos for actually taking the time to provide some meaningful background for your arguments, not to mention to add value regardless of view. More should follow your example if they think their claims could be remotely controversial.
> 
> Now, those various documents you quoted and linked to confirms what's been said earlier in this thread. Note that all these links/documents list pretty much all major ingredients found in dog food. They are all listed there, beef, chicken, lamb, eggs, turkey, pork, fish, wheat, soy, corn, rice and dairy. Not many other main ingredients left out from these documents. So, the only way to read these links and data provided by TT and others is that corn is not a major or common allergen. First, food related allergy cases are dwarfed compared to environmental causes. Then in the few cases left corn does not even make it to the "podium" of the worst offenders.


Thanks, I understand what you're saying, but it doesn't quite make sense to me. Do we know for certain the potential % of reaction for each food allergen listed? If all main ingredients are listed as common allergens, why couldn't they be known to have equal potential for an allergic reaction? Yes it's been known that food allergens are less common than environmental.


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## DaViking

Kat said:


> I will never agree with feeding a dog food with its main ingredient being corn.


I think you are creating a dispute where there is none. I don't know any poster here that would stand behind feeding a regular maintenance formula where corn is the no. 1 ingredient and make up the majority of the ingredients per weight, or energy. We are talking about a specialized formula meant to treat and/or relieve a condition. I don't eat Advil day out and day in for the rest of my life if I had a headache.



Kat said:


> Of course vet diets say corn is fine and highly digestible, but it pretty much comes out the same way it went in. Corn based kibble produces bigger poops than grain free...


First of, why the hate on vets? There are tons of great knowledgeable vets out there. No, pretty much everyone know corn is highly digestible, not just "vets" as you put it. I don't get it, do you see whole yellow corn kernels in the kibble? You must since you make a point out of it coming out the same way it went in here where we discuss kibble and wet formulas.
"Corn based kibble produces bigger poops than grain free" First of all, what is a corn based kibble? Are we talking about crap'ola from the grocery store or what? As a blanket statement like that, absolutely not true. Look around you, one of the most common complaints these days on various forums are bulky stools produced from new grain free formulas. One of the main reason for this are the fiber source which often these days are derived from peas. Bulkier stools are a topic of much discussion these days but it is besides the point in this context.

At the end of the day there isn't anything terribly wrong in using corn as one of the carbohydrates in kibble. It's all about the amounts, the individual dog and the formulas intended use.


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## Caty M

I personally do *not* think that corn is the "devil" ingredient, rather, I do not think starches in general are necessary beyond the amount needed to keep the "form" of kibble. I don't think corn is any worse than barley, potato, etc etc... but, corn does tend to be found in the lower quality foods. I'd never feed a food where corn is the number one, maybe for a small amount of time, but this Iams formula does have things like ethoxyquin which is NOT necessary, and even harmful. Why would they put something like that in there? There's no reason.. there are plenty of (yes, more expensive) preservatives out there. I am assuming that as a medical diet, the prices are through the roof.

I'd try and get a homemade recipe that is also low residue.


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## DaViking

Kat said:


> but dogs and cats dont eat corn in the wild, so why should it be in their kibble? I am not going to add anymore about the corn debate than that.


That's an absolutely meaningless argument here in this section.


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## DaViking

KittyKat said:


> Why would corn have a place in the balanced diet of a hypercarnivore?


Ok, then why would any carb or other functional ingredient or supplement have a place in the diet of a hypercarnivore? Why hang your argument on corn? Do dogs have a more friendly attitude towards barley? Again, a meaningless post here in this section since the intention behind the comment is to provoke a raw fed meat (>70%) diet versus kibble or other processed foods. These kinds of posts should be removed by a mod since they are way off topic and are absolutely fruitless.


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## Tobi

I suppose since were on the topic of corn... food for thought, Corn is one of the most widely used GMO foods, estimates say that 80% of US grown corn is GMO, that alone is cause for concern for me when it's an ingredient in pet food.


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## DaViking

Brian 6 said:


> Food companies regularly tested their grains for toxins that one might expect to occur in them under certain conditions by nature, such a mould toxins.
> 
> Since this has happened Royal Canin has instituted a new testing procedure. Before a truck is unloaded it is tested by a spectrophotometer. This reading is then compared to a spectrophotometer reading from the PURE grain. Every pure substance has a unique spectrofetometer reading, a spectrofetometer finger print if you like. if the reading from the truck does not match that of the pure ingredient then the whole truck load is rejected. This test cannot tell what the impurity is or whether it is dangerous. All it tells Royal Canin is that it is not pure so it is rejected.
> 
> People, the grain that goes into your bread is not tested this thoroughly!
> 
> Plus, where do you think the producer takes this truck load of rejected grain? Do you think that they dump it because it does not meet Royal Canin's unique strict standards?


And things like this that really matters in terms of safety tend to drown when the hate machine starts to churn on various online boards. It's silly because it is counter productive. I didn't enter into this thread with the goal to plug Royal-Canin (I know they are not alone in advanced safety measures) in any way but I stand by what I have expressed several times, here and on other boards, Royal-Canin and it's therapeutic arm Medi-Cal is a very good option. You can always discuss pricing and going overboard with formula splitting etc., but... another thread another time.


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## Kibblelady

Roo said:


> Yes corn can be technically digestible (in certain processed forms), a source of energy, protein, fatty acids etc, but as you pointed out earlier, there are more complete proteins, higher sources of energy (per gram), and higher sources of fatty acids for dogs in other food sources besides corn. I don't think corn is "evil", I just feel there are better food sources out there for what corn provides, I don't have an issue with carbs, however I do question the amounts and sometimes the quality of carbs used in a lot of commercial foods. I've read some of the studies out there and usually am less than impressed, especially the studies done or funded for by the dog food companies themselves on their own products, I know who else is gonna do them or pay for them, but I would be far less concerned about possible bias if they were independently done.


Technically digestible? What does that mean? Which grain provides the energy, amino acid profile and fatty acid content that corn does? (seriously, not being factious, I like to ask questions.) An independently done study on the digestive properties of corn in dogs? No one will do that let alone pay for it 

I honestly think many people will never be satisfied no matter what is proven. Not to be confrontational or "snarky" but many would rather believe information given to them with no scientific proof at all... so many of these websites and blogs linked to for "information" have no real information at all but are just lists of unimportant details or myths and rumors. What is the answer here? Continue to approve of inaccurate statements and propaganda? Or try to send out the proper information and hope someone hears it? There are some things people can disagree about but some things are facts and cannot be changed.


----------



## Kibblelady

KittyKat said:


> Why would corn have a place in the balanced diet of a hypercarnivore?



This is a new phrase I have not seen, what is a "hypercarnivore?" I do not need the explanation that dogs are carnivores, I agree with that. I have always said that they are carnivores that can eat an omnivore diet. That you can disagree with, I understand that. But this new word I have not seen and would like to know what it means and where it came from. Thanks. Maybe all this should go to another thread?  I'm not sure.


----------



## Kibblelady

Caty M said:


> I personally do *not* think that corn is the "devil" ingredient, rather, I do not think starches in general are necessary beyond the amount needed to keep the "form" of kibble. I don't think corn is any worse than barley, potato, etc etc... but, corn does tend to be found in the lower quality foods. I'd never feed a food where corn is the number one, maybe for a small amount of time, but this Iams formula does have things like ethoxyquin which is NOT necessary, and even harmful. Why would they put something like that in there? There's no reason.. there are plenty of (yes, more expensive) preservatives out there. I am assuming that as a medical diet, the prices are through the roof.
> 
> I'd try and get a homemade recipe that is also low residue.


The ethoxyquin *is* necessary as this food if I recall has ahigher fat content than would be expected and it is a script food which means it is not selling off the shelves everyday of the year. What good is a script ingredient if the fats are rancid and the dog will not eat it? I am sure Brian can expound on this more if he is still around. They do not just decide to throw a dash of ethoxyquin in there because they want to or because they want dogs to get sick to line their pockets (I have seen that statement waaay too many times) They put it in there because the situation requires it and it is responsible to do so. Realize as well that is a very, very low amount of ethoxyquin. Hey, do some realize that there are forms of cancer that ethoxyquin actually prevents? There are some tumors it promotes but then again so does water.


----------



## Kibblelady

Tobi said:


> I suppose since were on the topic of corn... food for thought, Corn is one of the most widely used GMO foods, estimates say that 80% of US grown corn is GMO, that alone is cause for concern for me when it's an ingredient in pet food.


Thanks for the point Tobi. I cannot comment as I have not yet looked into GMOs....but, you have given me a new topic to research, thank you. I will get back to this when I am satisfied I can talk about it in an informed manner.


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## Kibblelady

DaViking said:


> And things like this that really matters in terms of safety tend to drown when the hate machine starts to churn on various online boards. It's silly because it is counter productive. I didn't enter into this thread with the goal to plug Royal-Canin (I know they are not alone in advanced safety measures) in any way but I stand by what I have expressed several times, here and on other boards, Royal-Canin and it's therapeutic arm Medi-Cal is a very good option. You can always discuss pricing and going overboard with formula splitting etc., but... another thread another time.


I so agree with you DaViking. I also mentioned Royal Canin, they are a powerhouse of research and so often over looked. When I was actively breeding and they were just coming out with their GSD formula they sent me a DVD about how the formula came to be and why. They discussed their research, what they researched and why as well as how it applied to the ingredients and production of the food. It was impressive and I am a nutritionally knowledgeable GSD fancier so it all made sense even down to the shape and size of the kibbles....meant to slow down eating to help prevent swallowing of air. I trust RC implicitly.

I also agree with Brian when he stated you should buy a food from a company you trust, this is hallmark IMO. I trust the food I am feeding because of my knowledge about it. From the inside knowledge I have, the information I did get from the formulator Dr. Bicks, to the plant it is made in and my personal experience with it for over 12 yrs now. I trust Life's Abundance. Others have one that they trust in the same manner due to what they know and have experienced. I could give a rat's butt what people's comments on the ingredient panel are lol I know better than they do and know the ingredients more intimately than their AAFCO approved definition. I will however defend Jane when she is maligned...she is a friend, and she is a vet with a very good reputation and she does not deserve the comments made about her that I have seen even on this very board (just a warning, not sure how I got off topic, sorry.)I used to be involved with FRR, I used to sell and feed their food. That was until it failed miserably for me and I also researched the whole "baked is better" thing which is a load of nonsense. So, yes, bottom line is supporting a company you trust and I think everyone would agree with that.


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## Roo

> Technically digestible? What does that mean? Which grain provides the energy, amino acid profile and fatty acid content that corn does? (seriously, not being factious, I like to ask questions.)


Corn is not digestible in all forms (whole kernel), that's what I meant by technically digestible in certain processed forms (corn gluten, corn meal, etc). I said other food sources, not meaning just other grains, ie grass fed meats, animal fats etc. 

GMO is an interesting point, I know my Vet told me this spring that he had recently been to a Vet conference where they were discussing GMO food sources in pet foods and that there may be some connections between the GMO foods, pesticides/chemicals, etc. and an increase in illnesses they are seeing in their offices (more allergies, auto immune diseases etc.). He told me he has some concern about it, but more research is needed. 

It's too bad independent studies aren't done, it'd be easier for me to believe in their validity and have less concern for bias. After learning that companies like Hills and RC have been involved in price fixing, I have a hard time supporting or trusting them as a company.


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## DaViking

GMO concerns are fair from an environmental and socio-economic perspective. If it's an issue look for APHIS EU (not just APHIS) certified plants. APHIS EU certified pet foods would be GM free. If you find "your" formula exported to the EU market you can be fairly certain it comes from an APHIS EU certified plant and is free of any GMO. Technically you could export GM products to certain parts of Europe but that would have to be with a big warning label stating the product contains genetically modified ingredients. Won't fly and I can't remember ever seeing such a product.


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## DaViking

Kibblelady said:


> This is a new phrase I have not seen, what is a "hypercarnivore?" I do not need the explanation that dogs are carnivores, I agree with that. I have always said that they are carnivores that can eat an omnivore diet. That you can disagree with, I understand that. But this new word I have not seen and would like to know what it means and where it came from. Thanks. Maybe all this should go to another thread?  I'm not sure.


What KittyKat meant with a "hypercarnivore" is according to Wikipedia "an animal which has a diet that is more than 70% meat, with the balance consisting of non-animal foods such as fungi, fruits or other plant material." Why she choose "hypercarnivore" I don't know.


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## DaViking

SaharaNight Boxers said:


> I would replace it with chicken and rice.


Chicken and rice is fine and all but in a therapeutic situation it is not always cut 'n dry. Replacing the corn with chicken come with side-effects. Raising the meat content and decreasing carbohydrates will produce more acids while digested. Increasing carbohydrates while reducing meat content will produce less acids during digestion. This and many many other factors are what Iams, Hills and Royal-Canin take into consideration while formulating their various therapeutic diets. Yes, sometimes maybe a dog who was placed on a certain vet diet could do just fine with some home cooked chicken & rice. Sometimes a dog fed home cooked chicken & rice maybe should have been on a therapeutic vet formula from the start of the issues.


----------



## Kibblelady

DaViking said:


> GMO concerns are fair from an environmental and socio-economic perspective. If it's an issue look for APHIS EU (not just APHIS) certified plants. APHIS EU certified pet foods would be GM free. If you find "your" formula exported to the EU market you can be fairly certain it comes from an APHIS EU certified plant and is free of any GMO. Technically you could export GM products to certain parts of Europe but that would have to be with a big warning label stating the product contains genetically modified ingredients. Won't fly and I can't remember ever seeing such a product.


The plant that makes my kibble is APHIS EU certified.... Ohio Pet Foods.


----------



## DaneMama

I've moved MollyWoppy's post about c/d cat food to its own thread:

http://dogfoodchat.com/forum/all-other-pets/16924-prescription-c-d-cats.html

Any continued discussion on the topic must be done in the new thread please...and thank you :thumb:


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## Breathing Borla

Thanks,

now back to Roxy:thumb:


----------



## MollyWoppy

Breathing Borla said:


> I am not sure about anything right now, it could be the heat, but in years past she seemed to want to run anyway. She has been vet checked, that's why we are tinkering around with food issues.
> 
> She has never thrown up once a week before, so I am concerned about it. She won't eat in the morning during these episodes and and you can hear her stomach churning. She did have the squirts a few times but that has been really limited


Well, she is getting a bit older and it's been a lot hotter than normal as well. On the other hand, maybe they changed the ingredients in the EVO and something doesn't agree with her. Why not just switch foods for a bit. It doesn't sound like a big deal to me.


----------



## Breathing Borla

MollyWoppy said:


> Well, she is getting a bit older and it's been a lot hotter than normal as well. On the other hand, maybe they changed the ingredients in the EVO and something doesn't agree with her. Why not just switch foods for a bit. It doesn't sound like a big deal to me.


I have switched to the IAMS for now so we will see what happens. She didn't want her breakfast immediately this morning so were not off to a good start. That would have been the second meal with IAMs.

I will give her some time to use the IAMs and let her digestive tract calm down a bit. Her poop has been good though.

I don't think she puked though so maybe it did ok today, we'll see.

she had more energy last night and I ran her a decent amount. She seemed to be herself a bit more, so I was optimistic, then this morning, she didn't want her breakfast:suspicious:


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## LilasMom

Sorry if I missed this or misinterpreted the situation.. but is there a reason you chose Iams instead of a different higher quality food like Evo? If the problem is just a formula change/ unknown tummy upset, why not just try a different food that isn't so much of a lower quality? The iams ingredients are just terrible. Going from evo to iams is a very large jump in between qualities of food.


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## Breathing Borla

well, not off to a good start. She won't eat the Iams now. She ate it once the first day but the last night and this morning she wouldn't eat it and as soon as I put the EVO in the dish, it she ate it all.

back to the drawing board.


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## Breathing Borla

LilasMom said:


> Sorry if I missed this or misinterpreted the situation.. but is there a reason you chose Iams instead of a different higher quality food like Evo? If the problem is just a formula change/ unknown tummy upset, why not just try a different food that isn't so much of a lower quality? The iams ingredients are just terrible. Going from evo to iams is a very large jump in between qualities of food.


simple, my VET gave it to me and said feed her this. It's a low residue food he wanted her to try. There aren't many around.


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## meggels

I've been following this thread but dunno if I missed it...what makes a food low residue? How do you tell (by reading the label) or is there not a way?


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## Kibblelady

Breathing Borla said:


> well, not off to a good start. She won't eat the Iams now. She ate it once the first day but the last night and this morning she wouldn't eat it and as soon as I put the EVO in the dish, it she ate it all.
> 
> back to the drawing board.


Hmm...I didn't think maybe the bag of Evo was "off?" Is this a new bag? It can happen where the fats just go a little bit and what we cannot detect or smell the dogs can (this is why they want to preserve the foods well as fats turning or starting to the first thing that happens is dogs will not eat it, it's not dangerous in any way, but they wont eat it) and they wont be interested in the food. Maybe she just has a "bug" as we can get...that does happen and they get over it. Typically I do not worry about a day or so of not wanting to eat if it is not coupled with other symptoms. Being coupled with the vomiting and stool problems we know something is going on with Roxy, just not sure what. Thinking more now than earlier (got distracted by the whole vet diet discussion) do you feed treats or toppers or anything else other than the Evo?


----------



## Kibblelady

meggels said:


> I've been following this thread but dunno if I missed it...what makes a food low residue? How do you tell (by reading the label) or is there not a way?


Off the top of my head it has to do with how hard the GI system has to work on the diet, how much acid is contained in it as well as largely reducing the waste produced and the idea is resting the system a bit and make it easier to see if this corrects the problem going on. If it does stop it then you know the issue is something going on in the GI system be it the food or a problem beginning such as IBD. If the food does not correct the issue then something else is going on entirely. Low residue is usually used temporarily and just another limited ingredient diet is not the same thing, it's not about limited ingredient but easy to digest ingredients that like I said create the right acid environment and so forth. Info on this can be found I am sure on Iam's site, Hills or Royal Canin's site...also in PubMed if you do a search for "low residue diets and dog." Here is an example Nutritional management of idiopathi... [J Vet Intern Med. 1988 Jul-Sep] - PubMed - NCBI realize that link is to the summary of the study, full studies are always available to read as well.


----------



## Kibblelady

Oh, usually any main market product will not be low residue in nature as they contain fiber amounts etc for normal bowel function. Usually low residue forumals are found in prescription diets or in homemade recipes for low residue diets.

To Roxy's owner I just remembered a website that can help if you feel more comfortable with a certified veterinary nutritionist (they have PhDs) at Welcome to Pet Diets it is a paid for service and they can make recommendations as well as home cooked diets for health issues.


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## Unosmom

I would personally try something very bland like california natural chicken and rice and then transition over to a less richer food then EVO, I think Innova has a line called prime which is grain free but not as high protein.


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## Kat

Have you fasted her? Maybe it's something as simple as her body just needing a break? If Ruby has a week or more of mucousy soft stool I will fast he for 36 hours and intro food back slowly and she is back to normal.


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## Breathing Borla

update,

Roxy won't eat the Iams so I stuck with the EVO. She got sick today and the last time was last monday so just about a week apart again. 

I thought I might of figured it out as last time she got sick was 4am last monday and she came back in and when right to her food bowl. I then thought, I wonder if she is getting sick due to a raised stress level (baby) and also not having much in her stomach overnight. She get's 1 cup of EVO twice a day and was eating her dinner at 330-430 and then breakfast at 600-630 am. So maybe that was too long with out eating under these circumstances. I can't feed her more EVO because she will gain weight.

So I thought I would break up her meals further, 1/2 cup per time four times a day with the last one later at night. Seemed to be working but I had my head in my but the last night or so and cut her meals too much 1/4 cup twice last night which is 1/2 of what she needs. I felt bad but it was a honest mistakte

anyway, I am not giving up on this theory and I also think I need a food that's simplier and less caliries so she can eat more volume.

so which one of these should I try

Natural Dog Food, Cat Food and Puppy Food for Pets With Food Sensitivity ? California Natural

or

Lamb & Okanagan Apple | Acana

I am leaning towards the first one, it has less kcal/kg than EVO and I thought with less protein sources it may be easier on her to digest and also maybe she developed something with the EVO since she's been on it for years.

Thoughts?

I am heading to the store later today I think.


----------



## Breathing Borla

well i went with california naturals grain free lamb meal.

I fed her 1/2 cup, 3/4 with EVO 1/4 with CN, she gobbled it right up, so we will see. I'll do this 4 times a day.

I will transition her over for a few days

I have to figure out what the conversion is for 2 cups of EVO a day with CN having less calories. Maybe 2 1/2 or 3 cups?


----------



## SaharaNight Boxers

Just find out how many kcals are in each cup of Evo and multiply by how many cups you fed her then divide by the kcals on each cup of CN.


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## Breathing Borla

so evo 537.0 kcal/cup * 2 cups = 1074 Kcal

CN 450.0 kcal/cup

1074/450 = 2.38 or 2.5 cups rounded

correct?


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## SaharaNight Boxers

Yep, that sounds right.


----------



## lindseycampbell358

Breathing Borla said:


> well i went with california naturals grain free lamb meal.
> 
> I fed her 1/2 cup, 3/4 with EVO 1/4 with CN, she gobbled it right up, so we will see. I'll do this 4 times a day.
> 
> I will transition her over for a few days
> 
> I have to figure out what the conversion is for 2 cups of EVO a day with CN having less calories. Maybe 2 1/2 or 3 cups?


So glad you are trying California natural. That food did wonders for my old girl in her last couple years. I hope it works for you like it did for me! Keep us updated please!


----------



## Brian 6

bett said:


> while i generally feel that food is crap, since rex's liver issue, they wanted him on the ld formula. it's garbage but it doesn't have copper, and has other stuff that supposedly supports healthy liver. and it seems to be working. so while i will eventually home cook , they don't want me to do it (yet) and this food, somehow, is helping.
> 
> there are times like these, that i actually think the vets know what they are talking about. it's a "fix" as was said, not for long term feeding.


The 'somehow' is because of the extensive research that goes into the formulation.

We adopted a Yorkie rescued from a puppy mill bust in Quebec and he turned out to have a liver shunt. It looked like he would need a major surgery. While I was debating what to do, I put him on Hill's l/d (liver diet). All his symptoms went away (seizures, conjunctivitis, doziness) and he became 'normal' (for a Yorkie  ) as long as he ate the diet. Whenever he got something that he should not, he would head press in the corner or start to seizure.

If you want to home cook I highly recommend Hilary Watson's book 'Complete and Balanced'. I cant remember of the top of my head if she has a liver recipe but she is very approachable. If there isn't one in her book, if you email her she will use her program to create a recipe that will work for your dog. She has done it for some of our clients with dogs with various food intolerances.


----------



## DaViking

Breathing Borla said:


> so which one of these should I try
> 
> Natural Dog Food, Cat Food and Puppy Food for Pets With Food Sensitivity ? California Natural
> 
> or
> 
> Lamb & Okanagan Apple | Acana
> 
> I am leaning towards the first one, it has less kcal/kg than EVO and I thought with less protein sources it may be easier on her to digest and also maybe she developed something with the EVO since she's been on it for years.
> 
> Thoughts?
> 
> I am heading to the store later today I think.


CN have 450 kcal/cup from a 21/11 formula!! Even 450 kcals is high in a traditional perspective and I think it's fair to say that a lot of the energy here is coming from the carbohydrates, peas and potatoes in this case, and not from the lamb and sunflower oil.

Compare for example against this Nutram formula. It got slightly more proteins and slightly more (animal) fat and 3 carbohydrate sources (instead of 2), Brown Rice, Rice and Dehulled Barley but still it comes in with considerably less kcals (as it normally would since it's a lamb formula). The answer is that the CN food is high in energy from carbs, mr potato is probably the bad boy here.


----------



## Breathing Borla

DaViking said:


> CN have 450 kcal/cup from a 21/11 formula!! Even 450 kcals is high in a traditional perspective and I think it's fair to say that a lot of the energy here is coming from the carbohydrates, peas and potatoes in this case, and not from the lamb and sunflower oil.
> 
> Compare for example against this Nutram formula. It got slightly more proteins and slightly more (animal) fat and 3 carbohydrate sources (instead of 2), Brown Rice, Rice and Dehulled Barley but still it comes in with considerably less kcals (as it normally would since it's a lamb formula). The answer is that the CN food is high in energy from carbs, mr potato is probably the bad boy here.


It supposed to be for sensitive dogs I guess and it has limited amount of ingredients

so we'll see what happens. If no go, then I'll try something else. It got to the point where research needed to end and I need to try something and see what happens.

This is a step down from EVO in richness so she can eat a little more, which I wanted to try.

hopefully i am not making a mistake.

any one else use this California naturals grain free lamb meal?


----------



## Breathing Borla

lindseycampbell358 said:


> So glad you are trying California natural. That food did wonders for my old girl in her last couple years. I hope it works for you like it did for me! Keep us updated please!


Thanks, I hope she does well on it. she did awsome on EVO for years, but under the new circumstances, maybe it was time for a change.

or worse, it's not food releated:frown:


----------



## Breathing Borla

DaViking said:


> Compare for example against this Nutram formula. It got slightly more proteins and slightly more (animal) fat and 3 carbohydrate sources (instead of 2), Brown Rice, Rice and Dehulled Barley but still it comes in with considerably less kcals (as it normally would since it's a lamb formula). The answer is that the CN food is high in energy from carbs, mr potato is probably the bad boy here.


I will keep this in mind, I have never heard of it so thanks for the suggestion. I wonder if the whole grain free thing really matters


----------



## SaharaNight Boxers

Breathing Borla said:


> I will keep this in mind, I have never heard of it so thanks for the suggestion. I wonder if the whole grain free thing really matters


I think grain free definitely matters. Duke was always a little chubbier looking on grain inclusive, he was itchier, and he got terrible ear infections all the time. When we switched to grain free his ears cleared up a bit more, his coat improved, he wasn't as itchy, and he got more sleek looking. I would always stick with grain free if possible. Plus, it's just another thing to possibly irritate her system. I would've gone with the CN just because the Acana had a grain personally.


----------



## DaViking

Breathing Borla said:


> I will keep this in mind, I have never heard of it so thanks for the suggestion. I wonder if the whole grain free thing really matters


Elmira bought the Nutram brand not long ago; I am not sure if they are south of the border yet, or even plan to do a US push? It's exported to every continent but no US distribution as far as I am aware of. Anyways, I just wanted to use that formula as an example of how a proven balanced good quality lamb diet should look like. When you see 21/11 lamb formulas measuring in the high 400 kcals, as in the CN case, something is up with the energy distribution.


----------



## DaViking

SaharaNight Boxers said:


> I think grain free definitely matters. Duke was always a little chubbier looking on grain inclusive, he was itchier, and he got terrible ear infections all the time. When we switched to grain free his ears cleared up a bit more, his coat improved, he wasn't as itchy, and he got more sleek looking. I would always stick with grain free if possible. Plus, it's just another thing to possibly irritate her system. I would've gone with the CN just because the Acana had a grain personally.


According to the other thread about what food ppl have been feeding you have fed Dog Chow and Blue Buffalo, and according to you, Duke's decline with loss of muscle mass and localized mange started when you fed him Blue Buffalo Wilderness Salmon, which is a grain free food. Dog Chow and BB LP, that's it.


----------



## Breathing Borla

DaViking said:


> Elmira bought the Nutram brand not long ago; I am not sure if they are south of the border yet, or even plan to do a US push? It's exported to every continent but no US distribution as far as I am aware of. Anyways, I just wanted to use that formula as an example of how a proven balanced good quality lamb diet should look like. When you see 21/11 lamb formulas measuring in the high 400 kcals, as in the CN case, something is up with the energy distribution.


why is that? I thought with a "meal" the protein amount was more concentrated, thus the decently high protein levels.


----------



## Breathing Borla

SaharaNight Boxers said:


> I think grain free definitely matters. Duke was always a little chubbier looking on grain inclusive, he was itchier, and he got terrible ear infections all the time. When we switched to grain free his ears cleared up a bit more, his coat improved, he wasn't as itchy, and he got more sleek looking. I would always stick with grain free if possible. Plus, it's just another thing to possibly irritate her system. I would've gone with the CN just because the Acana had a grain personally.


that is basically why I chose the CN. the Acana had grains.

I am trying to eliminate things to get her better and since she's been on grain free for along time, I thought I should not add another variable to the equation for now.

My rationale was that the CN had less ingredients, was supposed to be easier to digest or be for sensitive dogs, and was also less dense or calorie rich so she could eat a little more. 

by going with this food, I could take out more variables at once.

this food line s also designed to be able to rotate which I thought was interesting for the future maybe.


----------



## DaViking

Breathing Borla said:


> why is that? I thought with a "meal" the protein amount was more concentrated, thus the decently high protein levels.


The CN formula have 21% proteins and 11% fat. 21% proteins is low but quite normal from a lamb based formula. Normal kcals per cup for lamb diets are in the 350 to 400 range. These numbers make sense, and give you an good indication of a well made formula, knowing that energy comes from proteins, fat and carbohydrates. When you see kcals in the high 400's with no increase of either proteins or fat it's a given that the energy levels are being supported by the (more) carbohydrates.


----------



## SaharaNight Boxers

DaViking said:


> According to the other thread about what food ppl have been feeding you have fed Dog Chow and Blue Buffalo, and according to you, Duke's decline with loss of muscle mass and localized mange started when you fed him Blue Buffalo Wilderness Salmon, which is a grain free food. Dog Chow and BB LP, that's it.


Yes, that did happen also, I don't believe it necessarily had to do with grain free on general because he was better at first then started his decline. And his coat did improve and his body got sleeker. It's not like it was a major falling apart thing, he just had some issues. If anything I blame it more on Blue BUuffalo than the grain free aspect.


----------



## Breathing Borla

I thought I would check back in and provide an update.

Vet couldn't find anything wrong with blood tests so I stumblded across a solution that has worked. 

I broke up her meals into 4 times a day rather than two and also did a mix of california natural and EVO. that way she could eat more with the same amount of calories.

I started by doing the math for the amount of calories and just wanted to use up the EVO until I swtihed to CN, but I had success with just using CN and EVO that when I ran out of EVO and CN, I just bought more of both and feed her a mixture of both foods.

she hasn't been sick once since then. So the best I can come up with is maybe her stomach gets too emtpy and the added stress of the new baby just makes her sick. So with having 4 smaller meals a day she never goes that long between feedings. She can eat more volume as well and hasn't gained any weight.

so I guess I'll just stick with CN and EVO mix and see what happens, so far so good for the last few months.

she also got her teeth cleaned and hip x-ray and the hips look good, so we think we may have a small amount of arthritis as she limps a bit after shes runs a ton. They put her on gluscosomine (sp). I will start that after she is done with the antibotics she on from the teeth cleaning.


----------



## Breathing Borla

well,

back again. EVO and CN mix was stopped due to hard stools. I put her just back on the EVO and everything was fine for quite some time. Now, she had very bad diarrhea for a while and back to the vet we went. They found elevated type a bacteria in her stool which they thought was due to her getting into something,ect so she went on a few meds for a week. The diarrhea stopped but then she didn't go for a few days and then when she would go it was a big time blow out. So back to the Vet we went and they did the full blood work up, put her on a de-wormer and some eye cream (her eyes were red and bloodshot). They also had me try a prescription rabbit single source protien food and her poop seems to be getting better again and her eyes are looking good.

the blood results came in just now and everything checks out except there is a certain white blood cell that is slightly elevated that can be from a food allergy or parasite they said. All the meds will take care of the parasite (if there is one) they said but they want me to try to stay with a single protien food for a while. The prescription rabbit (royal canin I think) is very pricey. 68 bucks for 17lbs.:shocked:

so I told the vet that I may try and find a food that has single protein ect. She said some foods say single protien but aren't so you have to read the label closely, ect.

so, so far I have the acana singles to send to her for review, she also said blue buffalo basics could work.

I aslo saw that EVO had a recall, and although my food was in the list it was for a different size. I think it's time to leave EVO anyway as she's been on it for a long time and I think a change may do her good.

any thoughts?


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## Breathing Borla

I decided to go with arcana singles duck and pear. So far so good and I don't have to bribe her to eat it like the script royal canin rabbit. I guess we'll see how it goes. Vet said it looked fine for what we are trying to accomplish.


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## Breathing Borla

Breathing Borla said:


> I decided to go with arcana singles duck and pear. So far so good and I don't have to bribe her to eat it like the script royal canin rabbit. I guess we'll see how it goes. Vet said it looked fine for what we are trying to accomplish.


So much for that, she got real itchy after being on fully for a few days, so on we go to the next one. the vet suggested blue buffalo basics so I think I will try that.


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## brindle

Breathing Borla said:


> So much for that, she got real itchy after being on fully for a few days, so on we go to the next one. the vet suggested blue buffalo basics so I think I will try that.


My dog was also very itchy on this food... have you tried Healthwise. I am having amazing results on it!


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## mewlittle

what about merrick ,nature variety instinct ,diamond naturals, did you try any of thous?


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## Breathing Borla

right now I just started trying Blue Buffalo Basic Grain free turkey and potato sensitve solutions. Wow, that's a mouthfull lol.

This, it's newer.

BLUE Basics Grain Free Turkey dog food, a limited ingredient diet


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## meggels

OP - have you tried Natural Balance?


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## Breathing Borla

ok, I think we have a winner with the blue buff I mentioned above.

so far so good....

I order from chewy.com


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## flashyfawn

My dog Zoey had stomach and digestive issues a while back and we never did really figure out what her issue was. I too tried many, many different limited ingredient diets and she either would not eat them or did eat them but they made her sick. She did really well on the Blue Basics turkey & potato for about a year, it was the only thing I could find that she could eat. I hope your dog continues to do well--I know how frustrating this can be.


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## Breathing Borla

flashyfawn said:


> My dog Zoey had stomach and digestive issues a while back and we never did really figure out what her issue was. I too tried many, many different limited ingredient diets and she either would not eat them or did eat them but they made her sick. She did really well on the Blue Basics turkey & potato for about a year, it was the only thing I could find that she could eat. I hope your dog continues to do well--I know how frustrating this can be.


ya, I hear you. There really doesn't seem to be a reason and there is only so much money I have for Vets to chase down an unknown issue. I have just had a full blood panel ect and everything checked out ok, again.

So I will stick to this new blue buffalo basics food and see how it goes. She seems to be doing really well so far and I am even seeing an improvemnt in engery and coat. At least I want to think I am, LOL.:biggrin1:

thanks for the well wishes.

It's a very limited sample size so far, but I can recommend to anyone who is going through issues to give the new line of Blue Buffalo a try.


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## flashyfawn

Yeah that's how I was also--deciding how far to go to chase an answer that you don't even know if you can find. My vet wasn't even supportive of trying more testing once we were finally able to manage her issues through her diet. Now for some still unknown reason, my dog is basically unable (or unwilling) to eat any type of kibble at all, but does great on dehydrated with cooked meat added. I don't question it anymore, I just go with it!

You definitely could be seeing more energy, I think, if she feels better overall.


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