# Growling and being possessive with raw food



## schtuffy (May 17, 2010)

So Louis has never really been possessive with anything. When he plays with other dogs and they steal his toys, he just sorta stands there with a dumb look on his face and then runs and finds something else to entertain himself. He's not great with 'drop it' but 99.9% of the time he will do it if I tell him, albeit reluctantly...The 0.01% of the time that he doesn't obey the command is here:

This started when I fed a big RMB meal, something too big for me to cut up into smaller sections, and I was letting him eat half before taking it away and saving it for later. When I reach for the food, he starts growling at me (he never growls at me) and tries to run away. It has also gotten to the point where if I try to take it, he responds by gulping and inhaling his food as fast as he can. Normally, he is Mr. Meticulous.

I don't want him to not trust me and think that I am taking his food away. I find it kinda cute, but I just wanted to know if this is normal or if it is something I should try to discourage. I'd rather him not take up the habit of inhaling his food for fear of losing it. Are you able to take RMB's out of your dog's mouth obediently? Usually, say he has a drumstick in his mouth...I can successfully get him to drop it if I offer something to trade, like a little piece of liver. Is this sufficient?


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## Jgk2383 (Oct 27, 2010)

I have large working dogs... german shepherds. You better believe I can take anything I want from them whenever I want from them. I am their source of all that is good, that being said I would NOT tolerate that so I do not think it would be different for another small dog. I think a trade is fine.


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## Jgk2383 (Oct 27, 2010)

I want to say that I think they are growling over the raw food because its beyond delicious to them and he is resource guarding.


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## DaneMama (Jun 27, 2008)

Offer something that is even better when you ask him to drop it. That way he knows when you say "drop it" that he'll get something even better in return. I'd start this with a small, not so great meal before moving onto the larger more valuable RMB meals. Work him up to it gradually.


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## Northwoods10 (Nov 22, 2010)

I would definitely try to nip that behavior now...don't want it escalating into something more serious. 

All of my dogs will let me reach in their bowls, pet them, take something away if need be. But I have had Nallah growl a few times....and from there I offer a trade. 

I also always ask my dogs to work for their food a bit before I put their bowl down. High fives, shakes, down/wait, etc.


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## schtuffy (May 17, 2010)

Jgk2383 said:


> I want to say that I think they are growling over the raw food because its beyond delicious to them and he is resource guarding.


Thanks everyone. I was thinking it was borderline food aggression. He definitely only exhibits this behavior with raw foods and nothing else.


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## nupe (Apr 26, 2011)

Jgk2383 said:


> I want to say that I think they are growling over the raw food because its beyond delicious to them and he is resource guarding.


I agree with jgk///its partly because the RAW food is so damn good...but also agree I would nip that right quick!!!...I have a 94 pound doberman ...and can reach right in his mouth and take food from him.


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## luvMyBRT (Mar 8, 2010)

I try to never take food away from my dogs when they are eating. I have never been a fan of "let you dog have the RMB to eat some and when he's had enough take the rest way" idea. Because you are, in fact, taking the dogs food away from him. I always try to make sure that the size of the RMB is appropriate and then leave the dogs alone when they eat. When you start taking food away (let alone raw food) that's when resource guarding/food aggression can become a problem with some dogs (not all).

If you do have to take a RMB away I for sure like the "trade" idea. Make sure the trade item is better than what the dog already has.....so the dog thinks he's getting something way better! Yeah!! By doing this your taking nothing way....just trading for something better. :tongue:


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## nupe (Apr 26, 2011)

luvMyBRT said:


> I try to never take food away from my dogs when they are eating. I have never been a fan of "let you dog have the RMB to eat some and when he's had enough take the rest way" idea. Because you are, in fact, taking the dogs food away from him. I always try to make sure that the size of the RMB is appropriate and then leave the dogs alone when they eat. When you start taking food away (let alone raw food) that's when resource guarding/food aggression can become a problem with some dogs (not all).
> 
> If you do have to take a RMB away I for sure like the "trade" idea. Make sure the trade item is better than what the dog already has.....so the dog thinks he's getting something way better! Yeah!! By doing this your taking nothing way....just trading for something better. :tongue:



I would only do thaT IF i HAd TO....Like he eating too fast or gulping. or choking.......or something along those lines...Not just because I can lol


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## 3Musketeers (Nov 4, 2010)

I guess work on "drop it" but with the food, how everyone else said, trading it for something better. You could also making him sit etc. and letting him chew on the food (ex: a drumstick) while you're still holding it so he knows you're in control of the food, maybe tell him to leave it or drop it, an give him a treat or a few treats, then he can resume eating.
Or get two RMBs, and trade one for the other.

I have to constantly take my dogs food, cause they'll try to eat it indoors, or on my bed, or someplace unacceptable, and they're totally fine with it. Probably cause they know I'm giving it back, I just lead them to an acceptable eating spot and let them have it there. I had Sparky tug back (no growling) once, then I just stared at him and he dropped it (I don't recommend this at ALL with food aggression btw) he was just being bratty.


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## RaisingWolves (Mar 19, 2011)

I take food away all the time. I ask them to release and they do. I've been very hands on with their food from day one. I can reach in their mouth and take it out... and they are rewarded (sometimes with food, and sometimes with praise and approval).
Our trainer's dog can carry a peanut butter sandwich in his mouth across a room and back, then hand it back to his owner without ever biting into the sandwich.


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## Liz (Sep 27, 2010)

*Food Aggression*

One of my collies puppies decided to be a bit food aggressive and we have to deal with that quickly. I do not mess with their food or take it away on a regular basis but I need to know I can take anything from them if I have to. I don't like messing with a dog's mealtime but aggression of any kind is not acceptable in my home. I have kids here all the time and my dogs needt o be safe aroundd anyone no matter whta they are eating or playing with. Just my opinion.


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## SerenityFL (Sep 28, 2010)

I probably won't be popular with this but I do not believe in giving my dogs food and then taking it away while they are in the middle of eating it. It's not natural.

My dogs are fed in their crates so that cuts out the problem with them taking it all over the house and they pretty much eat what I give them pretty fast.

One thing you might want to try, if you find that there are times, for whatever reason, you feel you need to take it away is try feeding them by hand. For example, a rib bone, hold it while they chomp on it but don't let go of it. 

I started doing this not too long ago not as a game but because there was still meat on the bone but the dogs already had their share of bone...didn't want them to have the bone but didn't want to waste the meat.

I held it up to the girl to let her chew away the meat and it actually turned out to be this weird bonding moment thing. We've done it a few other times but this is after I've already fed them their dinner. Once I put their dinner in front of their noses, I don't mess with it. Not because I can't, because I won't.


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## Liz (Sep 27, 2010)

I agree with not taking food away but we feed in the backyard sometimes and this one pup has even gotten nasty over an old bone I didn't see to pick up. Things like that are way I am hard on the food issues. Plus when the pups were little they ate together and she got very nasty with litter mates over food. My adults are all very good about it. We never mess around when they are eating but there are always accidents.


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## sassymaxmom (Dec 7, 2008)

Exactly. Better to have a plan if something bad is happening. 

Max lets me do anything I like but Sassy got stiff. I did the drop food in a bowl, put my hand in and leave even better food, pick up bowl and put something yummy in.

Do a lot of handling of all parts of the dog's body. 

Playing 'hot toy' might be good - two toys, you play with one and once dog is fully engaged with you and that toy drop it and play with the other toy. 

Practicing moving on and off furniture is good too.

The one and only time Sassy ever drew blood was in her last week with us. I thought she wanted me to help her with her rib bone and she didn't know her tooth was on me and not the bone! Be careful if you do that. I would rather cut boneless stuff into bits and feed that, encouraging licking my gooey hands.

Tossing a yummie works for an emergency but Artie thought it was a dirty trick so I wouldn't do it as a rule. Distract give the yummy then give back the food though. Max is fine with it.


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## Savage Destiny (Mar 16, 2011)

SerenityFL said:


> I probably won't be popular with this but I do not believe in giving my dogs food and then taking it away while they are in the middle of eating it. It's not natural.


The problem with this mentality is that if for some reason you NEED to get part of a meal away from them, or if there's some sort of emergency, you need to be able to get the item away from the dog without an issue. I worked with both my dogs as puppies to be okay with me messing around with them, taking food and giving it back, same with chewies and bones. Now I can reach in and take whatever I want from them, and they just wag their tails. 

Riddle never had an issue, she didn't have the slightest possessiveness. Melon had some issues. He'd growl and posture over his food or chews whenever we came near. I started by only letting him eat or chew on something when I was holding it. I'd just sit on the floor and feed him his meal, or hold his bully stick while I watched TV. Then I worked on trading whatever he had for something super high value like roast beef or cream cheese. Once he was okay with trading, I would just take what he had and give it back after a second, over and over, so he understood that even if I took something, he was going to either get it back or get something better. 

Now he gets excited when someone walks up to him while he eats or chews a bone.


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## RaisingWolves (Mar 19, 2011)

Savage Destiny said:


> The problem with this mentality is that if for some reason you NEED to get part of a meal away from them, or if there's some sort of emergency, you need to be able to get the item away from the dog without an issue. I worked with both my dogs as puppies to be okay with me messing around with them, taking food and giving it back, same with chewies and bones. Now I can reach in and take whatever I want from them, and they just wag their tails.


This is exactly how I feel. I've taken about 100 acorns away from my puppy. I had to pry them out of her mouth in the beginning, now she drops them when I ask. For some strange reason she wants to eat them.:suspicious: 
My dogs have no problem giving up whatever I take from them. Mine follow me with wagging tails. 
I think food aggression can lead to bigger problems and should be addressed right away. I won't wait for it to happen. How do you know you can take something away if you never do? 

My mastiff girl has some major chompers and jaw strength....I had to condition her this way because I know I'm going to have grandchildren sometime in her life.
Look at her teeth!


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## SerenityFL (Sep 28, 2010)

I didn't say I can't take their dinner away from them, I said I won't.

And I'm not talking about acorns or things they find while we are out walking or exercising. I'm talking about taking their dinner away after I've given it to them. Two different things.


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## RaisingWolves (Mar 19, 2011)

I guess it depends on what you consider dinner. I feed large neck bones and take them away after they consume the appropriate amount. I have to, or I will have to deal with constipation and/or digestive upset. In this situation, I trade for a few ounces of meat.
I have taken meat away and given it back when teaching them where I want them to eat in the house. They learn very fast that I do not want them to drag meat all over the house.


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## Savage Destiny (Mar 16, 2011)

SerenityFL said:


> I didn't say I can't take their dinner away from them, I said I won't.


Again, how do you know you can if you've never done it? I'm not saying that it should be done all the time or just for kicks, but its an essential part of training and making sure you have a well-rounded, safe dog.


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## SerenityFL (Sep 28, 2010)

Savage Destiny said:


> Again, how do you know you can if you've never done it? I'm not saying that it should be done all the time or just for kicks, but its an essential part of training and making sure you have a well-rounded, safe dog.


I have a well rounded safe dog without needing to take their dinner away from them all the time. They get fed in their crates, like I said, no problem with mess. 

Dinner is that 8 oz or 16 oz of food I give them each day. It consists of bones, organs and meat...depending on the day. I don't give them bones like knuckle bones but chicken, turkey, fish or pork ribs. They eat in their crates, bones and all.

Have I pulled things out of my dogs' mouths? Yes, so don't say I have never done it. I've had to pull crap out of their mouths, (literally and figuratively), that they pick up outside on walks or exercise. If they steal a sock or a cat toy or whatever OR EVEN try to raid the cats' food, "drop it" works very well.

Those are things I have not given them. 

With things I have given them, I do not take it back. The only time I would get involved is if, for some reason, something I gave them was causing them to choke. When dinner is served, it is served, not served and taken away and served again.


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## Celt (Dec 27, 2010)

SerenityFL--I was wondering what kind of crates you fed your dogs in, wire or plastic?


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## SerenityFL (Sep 28, 2010)

Celt, I'm certainly not an authority on crates, I just got what was big enough for them and gave them lots of air. In the house, they each have their own crate, a wire crate with a tray that slides out. 

This is almost identical...in fact, it may be the type I purchased:

Dog Crates

Are these the best crates? I don't know. I can't use them for traveling, I would use a plastic crate, like for an airline, in that case but for feeding, training and when they want to go to their "den", this is it for them.

Like I said, I'm no crate expert and there are as many opinions about crates as there are crates. These work well although I did waste my money on the bedding....they chewed those up within the first two weeks. Eventually, when they get out of the chewing stage, I'll try it again.


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## Celt (Dec 27, 2010)

I'm not sure which crates are best for keeping a dog in. We don't really use them. We had to go and buy one for Scotty when he broke his leg, ended up getting a large because we couldn't see confining him to the tiny space provided by the ones sized for him. It was only going to be for 4 hours at the max but he wouldn't be able to stretch out or do much of anything in his size kennel. I was just wondering because we bought the wire kennel and I could just see a visiting "child" reaching through the "holes" to pet a dog.


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

we have the kind that serenity has and we have the dog house type....one we use for travelling and the wire one is when we go out for a few hours....

i think both have their uses.....but i'm no expert, either....it keeps bubba from eating the house and for me, that's a good thing.


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## Northwoods10 (Nov 22, 2010)

We use the wire crates for everyday use in the house. I don't often feed in the crates, but they are easy clean up!!! The plastic trays are easy to wash and easy to take out if need be.


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## CorgiPaws (Mar 31, 2009)

I can take food away from any one of my dogs, but I won't. 
If your dog is solid with the "drop it" command there is NO need to EVER have to bully your dog by taking their food away. I like to give huge pieces of meat on occasion, like a whole lamb leg or pork leg for the same of mental stimulation and in this case, I go for a "drop it, leave it, take it" making them release the leg, leave it, and then take whatever awesomely delicious thing I have for them. 
I also think there is a difference between taking away something your dog has FOUND, and something you have GIVEN them. 

I know I'm in the minority here, but when I GIVE food to my dogs, it's theirs. Period.


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## RaisingWolves (Mar 19, 2011)

PuppyPaws said:


> If your dog is solid with the "drop it" command there is NO need to EVER have to bully your dog by taking their food away.


I'm curious where you got the idea we are bullying our dog? Did I miss something? Who said they are bullying their dog?

You say "drop it", I say "release" or "leave it". Learning that command doesn't happen on it's own.. You have to make them (open their mouth and remove it) until they understand the command (followed by praise). This is how our trainer taught us and she is one of many in our group who trains service dogs for the handicap.
When my dogs were pups, my hands are on them during dinner.. petting them (head and body), touching their food by holding in my hand as they eat. I have never had a dog growl and me when I approach their food, and I believe it is because I conditioned them this way.This all begins when they are pups. My dogs are not threatened by my hands touching their food. It's nothing new to them. I'm not cruel and I do not bully my dogs. 
Two of my family members are dealing with food aggression right now and I would not wish that on anyone. 

Also, you said you give your dogs large pieces of meat and tell them to leave it when you need to take it away, but you never take food away? I don't understand?


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## RaisingWolves (Mar 19, 2011)

This is exactly what I'm talking about....
YouTube - Zuri's first raw meal (raw fed great dane) - PreyModelRaw.com

I can pull anything out of my dog's mouth and they follow me with wagging tails. They do not growl at me when I approach their food...EVER.
We also use the exercise DaneMama is using in the video to teach our dogs how to take food from our hands gently. We use the word "gentle" and they know what that means. 

I can place a piece of meat on my boxer's paw and ask him to leave it, and he does. I'm not quite there with my mastiff pup. She can only leave food that is placed 6 inches away.


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## SerenityFL (Sep 28, 2010)

RaisingWolves said:


> I'm curious where you got the idea we are bullying our dog? Did I miss something? Who said they are bullying their dog?
> 
> You say "drop it", I say "release" or "leave it". Learning that command doesn't happen on it's own.. You have to make them (open their mouth and remove it) until they understand the command (followed by praise).


Understood...but you can train them with objects other than their dinner. For me, "drop it" means they drop it out of their mouths. "Leave it" for me is when I see them starting to get interested in something that I don't want them to put in to their mouths, but they have not yet put it in to their mouths.

When mine were very young, I did feed them kibble, (we learn, we learn), and they didn't like kibble. I actually had to either put it in my hand to get them to eat it or throw pieces on the floor to make them believe it was a treat. They would not eat that kibble out of a bowl because they did not like it.

With raw, as I've said, there have been times when there has been meat left on a bone, (by the cats), that I figured, hey, give it to the hoodlums but I don't want them to have the bone. This is a treat for them. They have already eaten their dinner. This is extra. I hold the bone, (say a pork rib for example), while they chew the meat off of the bone. Because this isn't "dinner" this is a "treat", they learn to chew the meat off, leave the bone and yes, there is a bit of a bonding thing going on, I will not deny that. But again, this isn't their "dinner". 

Coincidentally, it's also teaching the boy dog about bite control since he still does it a bit harder than I would like.

Again, though, there is a difference between giving them their dinner and taking it away to teaching them to drop (or release) things that I did not give them, as well as a difference to holding up something to their face and having them eat from your hand. Dinner is dinner. It's served, they eat, I don't mess with them. Drop it is taught with other objects. By the time they started trying to raid the cats dinners, they knew what drop it meant and even though the cats get raw, as well, they KNOW it's not theirs. And they drop it. Eating from my hand...that's a treat. Not dinner.


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## KittyKat (Feb 11, 2011)

RaisingWolves said:


> This is exactly what I'm talking about....
> YouTube - Zuri's first raw meal (raw fed great dane) - PreyModelRaw.com
> 
> I can pull anything out of my dog's mouth and they follow me with wagging tails. They do not growl at me when I approach their food...EVER.
> ...


Yup, my dog is the same way. Even if another dog comes up she won't growl. I hand feed her and she is very gentle. She is great about taking treats, and she isn't possessive in the slightest. I could easy have children walking around the kitchen while she's eating and I would have no fear. They could walk up and grab her chicken and pull it away, and she would simply sit and wait. They could hold onto it while she's eating and she would eat away all happy. I never teased or bullied my dog to get that sort of response. I didn't have to, good training will ensure good manners.

Although I can see that PuppyPaws contradicts their statement... in the same post even...  It's not their's "period" if you take it away - even if you offer them something in return.


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## RaisingWolves (Mar 19, 2011)

KittyKat said:


> Although I can see that PuppyPaws contradicts their statement... in the same post even...  It's not their's "period" if you take it away - even if you offer them something in return.



This goes for whatever you are taking out of their mouth. Even though I do not consider acorns a meal, my pup sure thinks they are. I don't see this as bullying at all. 
I fed my two boxers side by side with an elevated feeder(don't laugh..okay laugh:biggrin for years. They never growled at each other- or me. I do feed my pup in her crate when I'm busy, but I do not feel they learn anything eating in their private den.


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## RaisingWolves (Mar 19, 2011)

SerenityFL said:


> Again, though, there is a difference between giving them their dinner and taking it away to teaching them to drop (or release) things that I did not give them, as well as a difference to holding up something to their face and having them eat from your hand. Dinner is dinner. It's served, they eat, I don't mess with them.


How does this work for large prey pieces?


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## CorgiPaws (Mar 31, 2009)

No. I still stand by my statement. I do not just take away their dinner. I will TRADE them something of higher value on the rare occasion I am doing a very large cut for mental stimulation, by first making them drop it and take what I have. But to just walk up and take it out of their mouths? No, NEVER. Period. 
There is a huge difference to me between taking something a dog found from their mouths, and GIVING them dinner and then messing with them. I do think it's bullying to some extent. Leave the poor dog alone and let it eat its meal. Put your face in my dinner, and see what happens. Hand feeding is fine, I've done that on may occasions. Giving them their dinner and then messing with them excessively and taking it away.... huge difference. There's just NO need for it.


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## RaisingWolves (Mar 19, 2011)

ITA with trading for the meat/bone you are trying to take away, BUT when I place their meal on their designated mat/towel and they try to drag it to off in the house, I take it from them and place it back on the mat. They understand what I'm asking them to do. I don't mess with their meal or take it away to torment them.


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