# Dogs around the world



## Guest (Jul 21, 2008)

I am always interested in what dogs are like in other countries. Do you have overpopulation? Do you have breed restrictions? What are your abuse laws like? Do people chain their pets outside? Keep them in crates? Do many people train? Neuter?

I heard on NPR that there was a dog rescue group started in Iraq. They wanted to neuter the stray dogs and the population was aghast. They had a hard time finding a vet to do it.

I find other cultures so fascinating. Even here in the US things vary from state to state. I live in TN, the puppy mill capital of the world. Our shelters are full of puppies. 

At our main city shelter we eutahinze 60 dogs a day every day simply because there is no where for them to go. We have a huge overpopulation problem. 

Neutering can be quite expensive even with the incentives and special programs. I think all vets should do this for free.

About 10% of people have their dogs professionally trained which is up from 5% when I first started training.

Some states or cities have out and out bans on certain breeds of dogs but ALL states has bans whether they talk about them or not. For instance insurance companies won't insure your house if you have certain breeds of dogs. Airlines won't fly certain breeds of dogs. Most shelters won't adopt out some breeds of dogs.

We have laws against chaining dogs but they are not enforced. Mnay people crate their dogs for long periods of time and for their whole lives, not just when they are puppies.

The law here is that an animal must have food, water and shelter. That's it. No one really enforces that either.

I would say that the pet industry is pretty much unregulated here in the US and pets are considered disposable. :-(


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## rannmiller (Jun 27, 2008)

Pets are considered to be property in the US. It's hard to regulate what someone does with their own property, even if it is a living, breathing, feeling, thinking being.


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## RawFedDogs (Jun 16, 2008)

zentrainer said:


> Neutering can be quite expensive even with the incentives and special programs. I think all vets should do this for free.


Vets run a business not a charity. Neutering isn't that expensive around here. I got a 1 1/2 yo Great Dane neutered vor $90. I thought that was very reasonablae. If you can't afford to neuter you can't afford a dog and shouldn't have one.


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## Guest (Jul 21, 2008)

*Pets as Property*

Even though TN is the worst for some things we did do something great a few years back. It used to be that if someone killed your dog you could recover only the cost of your dog.

We had the law changed so that now you can recover up to $4,000 for mental anquish and grief. A few other states have followed suit.

We also allow titers instead of vaccines which puts concern for the pet ahead of the vet (or pharmaceutical company).

That's a start to raising the value of pets. We have a long way to go though.

I was confused at first as to why home insurance concerned itself with pets. I was dismayed to learn they were considered property.


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## Guest (Jul 21, 2008)

*Free Neutering = Good Business*

When there were very few low cost choices (and now all the low cost choices here are less than $90), one vet right out of vet school, fresh, and wanting to change the world, started a low cost neuter program. 

For an amazingingly low price ($25 to $50) the clinic would neuter your pet.
At the time he started this clinic did NO business. There was never more than 1 car in the parking lot.

He retained only 1% of the clients who came to neuter their pets and within a year had a booming business. He still does low cost neuter on Fridays but every day of the week his parking lot is full and he has 3 vets on staff now.
(Vets should take a few business courses!)

Most every state participates in the Friends of Animal program. You pay for a certificate and they give you a list of vets who accept them. Of the over 50 vets here in town only 11 accept the certificate.

I only use and refer to the vets who do. It's not about whether I can afford it or not, it's about the overpopulation problem. Vets should/could be on the forefront of the solution to that.

I have clients who live in 2 million dollar houses and certainly have the money but refuse to spend that much on a "dog". We need a way to get these people to neuter so they don't add to the overpopulation.

Of all the low cost neuter programs I like Friends of Animals best because I get to pick the vet so I get to pick the anasthesia and any other drugs that may be used. My favorite surgeons in town accept the certificates so I am in luck!


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## Guest (Jul 21, 2008)

RawFedDogs said:


> I got a 1 1/2 yo Great Dane neutered vor $90. I thought that was very reasonablae.



Wow, that's cheap! I live 20 miles from DC, where the average price of a fecal test is $49! My insurance agent had her Mastiff neutered at the price of $540 (basic neuter, no retained testicles), I know others with more medium sized breeds who pay over $300 for a simple neuter. I've got no clue how expensive a spay is, and I'm afraid to find out.


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## RawFedDogs (Jun 16, 2008)

zentrainer said:


> We had the law changed so that now you can recover up to $4,000 for mental anquish and grief. A few other states have followed suit.


Thats great, I like that.



> We also allow titers instead of vaccines which puts concern for the pet ahead of the vet (or pharmaceutical company).


For rabies too? Do you have 3 year vaccinations plus titers for rabies?



> I was confused at first as to why home insurance concerned itself with pets. I was dismayed to learn they were considered property.


Insurance companies are concerned about dogs because of the potential liability from a bite. Some insurance companies won't write homeowners insurance if you have one of the breeds that have a reputation for biting and doing serious physical harm.


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## Guest (Jul 21, 2008)

Insurance policies are something that concern me greatly since my next dog will be a Doberman. Currently I'm with State Farm, who have no policy against Dobies and I hope it remains that way. Growing up we had our horse farm insured through SF and they cancelled our policy when they found out we had two stallions on the premises.


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## Guest (Jul 22, 2008)

*Rabies Titers*

Yes, TN allows titers for Rabies. That's the only vaccine that is mandated by law. My two year old dog and 1 year old cats have never had a vaccine in their life.

TN used to make everyone vaccinate for rabies every year (with the one and only 3 year vaccine.) The state changed it to every 3 years but different municipalities can have different laws.

They all accept a rabies titer in lieu of the vaccine though. You get the titer done and you get your tags and license.

My last two dogs went for about 10 years with no vaccines. The last time I titered them, they read 290 and 260. You need to be 10 to be immune! They had been vaccinated with the 3 year vaccine every year for 5 or 6 years before I learned the dangers though.


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## domari (Jun 17, 2008)

RawFedDogs said:


> Vets run a business not a charity. Neutering isn't that expensive around here. I got a 1 1/2 yo Great Dane neutered vor $90. I thought that was very reasonablae. If you can't afford to neuter you can't afford a dog and shouldn't have one.


I agree, there is no reason at all why any dog should not be neutered or spayed because of financial reasons. (well, for any other reasons either!)

Here in NY the state has vouchers for low cost S/N available to anyone who adopts from a shelter. The state also provides vouchers anyone on any type of public assistance. People on assistance can get pets S/N for only $20 with a state voucher. 

I was able to get a voucher when I adopted a puppy from a shelter, I paid a whopping $35 to have one of my dogs neutered!

The shelter where I adopted three of my dogs from works with a college vet tech program. They send some of the dogs and cats to the college where they are tested for every disease on earth, and also get spayed or neutered. I adopted an adult male dog for $45 he was tested for everything, immunized, wormed, neutered, you name it, he got it. 

We also have several spay/neuter assistance programs, each county has one. I help with our local SNAP program, the rules are very flexible and just about anyone who asks will get assistance paying for it. 

Since I live in a rural area with a lot of low income residents, my vet charges a lot less than city vets do. The most I ever paid was $65 to have a female puppy spayed. That was 5 years ago, but still, it's not a lot of money for spay surgery compared to what city vets charge. 

My vet works with the SNAP program too, yes it cuts into her profits, but she knows the overpopulation of cats and dogs is a major problem in this country. So she does what she can to spay and neuter as many animals as possible. 

There should be no reason for anyone to have litters of unwanted puppies or kittens. I think ALL animal advocates should push for stronger spay neuter laws in every state. There should be more spay/neuter programs, and vets should become a bit more charitable and do some of these surgeries free or low cost.


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## domari (Jun 17, 2008)

LPacker79 said:


> Insurance policies are something that concern me greatly since my next dog will be a Doberman. Currently I'm with State Farm, who have no policy against Dobies and I hope it remains that way. Growing up we had our horse farm insured through SF and they cancelled our policy when they found out we had two stallions on the premises.


I have six dogs, all mixed breeds, my insurance company would have a fit if they knew what they were mixed with. When I moved here and got dog licenses I was careful to use the "good dog" breed names. One of my dogs mother is an Anatolian shepherd, her father is Chow/Akita. When I got her license, somehow the guy doing it didn't know what breed to use so it just says "shepherd mix. My Pit Bull/Boxer is licensed as a Boxer and the Chow/GSD license says "other" the guy taking the info messed up. 

I don't know if GSD's are on the "bad dog" list or not, I think some companies are fussier than others. 

My mother used to raise Dobermans, so when I was a kid we always had a house full of them. The only dog that used to attack and bite me was my grandmothers little horrid Chihuahua. The Dobes wouldn't hurt a fly, but they got the bad rap. 

As an adult, of all the dogs I've had in and out of my house over the years, the only dog that bit any of us was a Dalmatian. It went into a frenzy one day and attacked my Golden then tore a chunk out of my husbands leg. Dalmatians are thought of as nice fun dogs, but I've met a few that were really scary.


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## domari (Jun 17, 2008)

zentrainer said:


> When there were very few low cost choices (and now all the low cost choices here are less than $90), one vet right out of vet school, fresh, and wanting to change the world, started a low cost neuter program.
> 
> For an amazingingly low price ($25 to $50) the clinic would neuter your pet.
> At the time he started this clinic did NO business. There was never more than 1 car in the parking lot.
> ...


Wow, that sounds like a great vet! I wish they'd all do that. 

We have a couple low cost vets, but there's one vet clinic which charges double what everyone else does. They have to pay for the huge mansion like clinic they built. My vet worked out of a house trailer looking clinic, so her overhead was low. But the vets in the "mansion" are charging wayyy too much. I called and asked about the prices for spay and neuter surgery, they were outrageous. There was a basic fee, then tagged on a lot of extra fees. It shouldn't cost over $200 to neuter a normal healthy male kitten. 

I agree with your comment about getting people to spend money on what they say is "only a dog", or a cat. They pay over $1,000 for some Cockerdoodlepoopoo mix designer mutt, but too cheap to spay it. Or they want to breed it because they think they can get rich from breeding dogs too. arrghhhh 

On the other hand, what makes it worse is when we have an imbicile for an ACO who said to the woman who runs the SNAP program "don't waste money on spaying cats, they'll probably just wind up getting run over by a baler anyway. 

Around here, too many people think of animals as disposable things they just get for free, play with until bored, then toss away like trash. I read some of the posts on Craigslist and want to smack people.


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## rannmiller (Jun 27, 2008)

Oh yes, many a people on craigslist seem to deserve a good smacking like "oh we got this puppy but it got too big and we don't have time for it anymore" or "we're moving and didn't think to find a place that allows animals so someone needs to take our beloved 10 year old mutt or we'll just have it put to sleep or take to the pound."

And then there's the people who get a brand new puppy, wander into the PetCo or someplace looking for stuff for it. You suggest they not feed it Alpo, Ol'Roy, Pedigree, Kibble N Bits, Attaboy, etc. and maybe stop poisoning their other dogs while they're at it and spend the extra money to make sure their dogs stay healthy so they don't have to spend the extra money later on for vet bills, supplement, and medication. People freak out and start getting all defensive! "It's just a dog, it doesn't need to eat better than I do for gosh sakes!" Then I get really scared thinking about what these people must eat considering I've just explained to them what's in these other brands of dog food.


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## TroysMom (Jun 30, 2008)

Wow so much to say!

Here in AZ its not very expensive to get spay/neuter. You an actually apply for a certificate and you have 60 days to take them in to special places and its done. Sometimes the certificate is $5.00. They promote the spay/neutering.

As far as states being different .. I had a neighbor who kept leaving their dog out back and it would bark nonstop all day and all night. The neighbor on the other side of that house .. and I went in back and checked on the dog. No food, no water, chewing on a shovel handle for food. HORRENDOUS. I called the cops. Wanna know what they told me? "By Mexican standards, its in good shape." I told him well, dude, we don't LIVE IN MEXICO! THe dogs ribs are sticking out!! WE never got anything handled. 

Anyhow, got some work to do ... gotta to!!


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## rannmiller (Jun 27, 2008)

Wow! That's a horrible story! I would've probably gone over there and set the dog free and taken it to the animal shelter myself. Then I'd have contacted PETA if they tried to take legal action against me. Grrr bad pet owners make me mad.


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## domari (Jun 17, 2008)

The county I live in doesnt have a animal investigator because they don't want to spend the money on one. We have ACO's but they don't have any legal power, they just pick up stray dogs (sometimes) or they take dogs at the police request. 
The ACO in my town is 78 years old, doesn't like to pick up strays, and when he does he keeps them in his barn for a week or so before bringing them to the shelter. 
If we have an animal complaint we have to call the police, either local village police, county sheriff or trooper, depending on which part of the county we live. The police respond and check out the situation. Some cops are better at others about knowing the ag and market animal laws. I know a couple of them who are animal advocates, most are not. They show up and see if the animal has food, water, and shelter, if it does, then they don't do much of anything else. 

When I moved to this house it was in July, our neighbor had an old 17 year old black lab chained outside to a doghouse. I felt really bad for the dog, it was arthritic, mostly deaf and blind. The dog was outside in all weather, it was too hot (in my opinion) for the dog to be out there in the summer. 
When winter arrived, the dog was still out there, when the temps dropped to -0 as they often do, I called to complain. I thought it was way too cold for an old dog like that. The poor thing would hobble around in the snow whine all the time. The police showed up and said the dog had a doghouse, so that was enough shelter. It had a bowl of water (frozen) and a bowl of food. That's all the law requires. The owners would shovel a path through the snow once a day and feed him. Then the dog would be outside alone the rest of the day. 
I talked to the owner, he said the dog used to be in the house but it had become incontinent of bowels and urine, his wife was sick of cleaning up after the old dog. Besides, their new little dog didn't like the old dog. I asked why didn't they have the dog put to sleep since it was old, arthritic, etc. He said he couldn;t bring himself to do it because he had the dog since it was a puppy. I offered to bring the dog to the vet myself, but he said no, he would do it when he was ready. I asked why didn't he at least keep the dog in the garage because it would have been better protected from the elements. He said the dog liked it outside!!! I was furious, and knowing that there was nothing legally that could be done about it made me even more furious. Every day I used to hear the dog whining, and see it hobbling out there in the snow. I have arthritis, I know how the cold weather makes my body feel, I can't imagine the pain that dog was in. I wanted to go set the dog free, but couldn't risk getting arrested. 
The dog lived like that until the following fall when they finally had it put to sleep. Unbelievable that people are so rotten and cruel to an old dog they had for years. 

Another time a friend of mine called the police about little puppies that were tied up outside in blustery weather. One was tied to a porch, another to a tree, another to a pole. When the police showed up, the owner showed that the puppies had "shelter". The pup tied to the porch could get under the porch. The other two had cardboard boxes turned on the side so the pups could get in the boxes. They didn't have access to food and water all the time, but there were bowls close enough and the owner said they were fed and given water daily. Since the pups weren't skinny, the cops said they were obviously fed. 
The boxes and porch were considered adequate shelter, and nothing was ever done about it. 

So even though the state of NY has laws, they are minimal, and it's up to the discretion of the cop who shows up as to if dogs are neglected or mistreated. 

Animal welfare issues are really not that important in my neck of the woods and it really annoys me that there aren't enough people around here who are willing to speak up and do something about it.


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## DaneMama (Jun 27, 2008)

I spent a good deal of time in Thailand, Ecuador, China, and Europe. I want to go back to all of these places so badly, not for vacation, but to help out all the animals. In Thailand, the view on pets is that they are living creatures that deserve kindness, but thats it. There are stray animals all over the place, even in the large cities like Bangkok. A large population of the people over there are buddhist and are respectful and kind to everyone and everything, including animals. The way that animals are viewed over there is: why bother them if they look happy? Every cat and dog I saw over there was in horrible medical condition, but no one is interested in their medical well being. I didn't get to see the pets in peoples homes, just the ones on the street, so my views may be a little biased. 

I think in developing countries that pet overpopulation and animal welfare is not one of the main priorities in the big picture. They are more worried about things like the economy, politics, healthcare, education, pollution, development, etc, etc. We are lucky in the United States, to even have pet overpopulation programs and awarness. It may seem like its a huge problem here, but in reality, its really not that bad as compared to the majority of the rest of the world, in particular the developing countries and the less developed countries. 

Europe has its problems with pet overpopulation, but I think that its nearly the same as it is here. It depends on where you are, but in some places pets are taken care of very well, but in others it seems as if there is no respect for them. 

All I have to say is, the US is where animals are taken care of the best, at least as compared to all of the places I have been. Pets in the US are lucky, at least that is for some of them. I am not dismissing our problems with pet overpopulation, abuse, neglect, etc, but in comparison, life here is great! Even if pets are being fed a low grade food, put in a kennel all day, and considered property here in the US, that is still a better life than most of the animals in the rest of the world.

I wish that everyone would be able to see what it is like in other countries, not just for the sake of animals, but also for the sake of humanity. Americans would benefit greatly to see how well we have it here...


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## domari (Jun 17, 2008)

danemama08 said:


> I spent a good deal of time in Thailand, Ecuador, China, and Europe. I want to go back to all of these places so badly, not for vacation, but to help out all the animals. In Thailand, the view on pets is that they are living creatures that deserve kindness, but thats it. There are stray animals all over the place, even in the large cities like Bangkok. A large population of the people over there are buddhist and are respectful and kind to everyone and everything, including animals. The way that animals are viewed over there is: why bother them if they look happy? Every cat and dog I saw over there was in horrible medical condition, but no one is interested in their medical well being. I didn't get to see the pets in peoples homes, just the ones on the street, so my views may be a little biased.
> 
> I think in developing countries that pet overpopulation and animal welfare is not one of the main priorities in the big picture. They are more worried about things like the economy, politics, healthcare, education, pollution, development, etc, etc. We are lucky in the United States, to even have pet overpopulation programs and awarness. It may seem like its a huge problem here, but in reality, its really not that bad as compared to the majority of the rest of the world, in particular the developing countries and the less developed countries.
> 
> ...


I agree, especially with your last comment in your post, you are so right.

Americans are really spoiled, we whine and complain about how bad it is, but most people here have never seen how bad it is in other places. 

From what I've seen, England has been doing a prety good job in caring for animals and some other countries are getting involved in animal welfare. 

I'm very impressed with the countries who have made it illegal to cut off dogs ears and tails just for looks, I wish the US would do that. Ever since I was a little kid and watched my mom cut the tails off all the puppies (she raised Dobermans), I thought it was just so mean to do. Perfect little puppies, she'd just snip the tails off. I remember the little tails in a pile she'd toss in the trash. Then she'd bring the litter to another breeder to cut the ears off. Way back when I was around 8 years old I decided I'd never have any breed of dog that had to have it's ears and tails cut off, and to this day, I never have. Other countries have banned this, but the US won't ban it because it's all about the money here. 

A drug called rBGH is banned in Europe and Canada, but it's ok in the US, given to cows all over the country. Human children are encouraged to injest it. People in the US scrutinize every little ingredient in pet food but never say a word about the poisons given to children every day. 

There are other countries who take better care of their children and elderly too, but that's another subject entirely so I won't go there now. 

Americans are up in arms about other countries eating what we consider domesticated pets, dogs, cats and horses. Yet in this country people eat cows, pigs, sheep, goats, chickens, turkeys, which are also sometimes considered pets depending on a persons outlook. 

Yes, my friend might feed her dog Old Roy because that's all she can afford... but the dog is in the house at night, not roaming the streets, it sleeps in the bed with them, it's spayed, it's spoiled, it's very very loved.


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## rannmiller (Jun 27, 2008)

domari said:


> I'm very impressed with the countries who have made it illegal to cut off dogs ears and tails just for looks, I wish the US would do that. Ever since I was a little kid and watched my mom cut the tails off all the puppies (she raised Dobermans), I thought it was just so mean to do. Perfect little puppies, she'd just snip the tails off. I remember the little tails in a pile she'd toss in the trash. Then she'd bring the litter to another breeder to cut the ears off. Way back when I was around 8 years old I decided I'd never have any breed of dog that had to have it's ears and tails cut off, and to this day, I never have. Other countries have banned this, but the US won't ban it because it's all about the money here.


I _hate _this! I'll admit that some dogs look a little better with ears and tails cut, but it's not very fair to the dog. But what really makes me mad is the people who get pitbulls and try cut their ears with scissors. So then you just have this poor, mangled dog with janky scissor-cut ear stubs that looks sad and miserable all because the owners wanted it to look "mean" or something dumb like that. Grrr. 

But as you said, there's worse things that could be happening, I just think that human-inflicted cruelty on animals is completely avoidable (duh, just put the scissors down and walk away). 








Vs

















So much better looking.


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## domari (Jun 17, 2008)

rannmiller said:


> I _hate _this! I'll admit that some dogs look a little better with ears and tails cut, but it's not very fair to the dog. But what really makes me mad is the people who get pitbulls and try cut their ears with scissors. So then you just have this poor, mangled dog with janky scissor-cut ear stubs that looks sad and miserable all because the owners wanted it to look "mean" or something dumb like that. Grrr.
> 
> But as you said, there's worse things that could be happening, I just think that human-inflicted cruelty on animals is completely avoidable (duh, just put the scissors down and walk away).


Dogs would get their ears and tails cut off because it made their "jobs" safer or easier. But really, how many dogs nowadays actually do jobs that require them to have short ears and tails? 
Australia has banned docking and cropping, so have other countries. I hope the US would do this too, but the AKC is fighting it. 
I see no reason to cut their ears and tails off for cosmetic reasons. My sister had Schnauzers with floppy ears, I thought they were adorable that way. I have a Pit Bull/Boxer mix with floppy ears and a long tail, I like him that way. 
If the dogs in Australia can run around with their body parts au natural, why can't American dogs do it?

Can't the AKC deal with breed standards that include floppy ears and long tails? Aren't things like bone structure, head and body shape, teeth and coat what's more important to the integrity of the breed than the length of the tail? 

We have moronic neighbors who want to breed their two Boxers that they got for free from some skanky people who didn't take care of the dogs. These neighbors don't take care of any of their animals or their kids, they're dirtbags who are only out to make money by breeding these two dogs they picked up. They are too cheap to bring their dogs to the vet for checkups, shots, the dogs are full of fleas etc. I asked about who'd be doing the tails on the pups after they were born. He said they'd do it themselves with rubber bands. 
Luckily when the female came into heat, the male wasn't interested so there won't be any puppies this time. But this type of mutilation of puppies needs to stop NOW.


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## DaneMama (Jun 27, 2008)

I agree completely with banning crop jobs in the US. I believe that its just cruel and pointless. Someone once told me that they were going to get the ears cropped on their new dane puppy, but when waiting in the reception room at the vet clinic on the day of surgery, he thought to himself: "Wow, his ears show almost as much expression as his eyes! I can't remove most of his ears just to make him suposedly look better, that would be like removing his eyes!" He then canceled the surgery for that day and took his floppy eared puppy home and has become one of the most passionate people I know about banning cropping/docking puppies. The AKC now recognizes natural eared danes, but they are very few and far between because the judges are biased to the old schools of thought. That is one reason I do not like the AKC and will not show my danes. 

I have a friend that wants to adopt a dane with cropped ears because she likes the way that they look, but doesn't agree with cropping in the first place and doesn't have the heart in her to do it! I don't get it!


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## BabyHusky (Jul 21, 2008)

Thats the sad thing with a lot of people in our society. They care enough to not do something themselves, but not enough to be totally against it.

I'm assuming your friend feels better if he/she gets a puppy that has already been cropped because then he/she wasn't the one that committed the cruel act.

My parents have been wanting dobermans forever, but I won't let them because my dad wants cropped and docked pups. I get all heated whenever he mentions it, so he has just decided to give up to shut me up. =)


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## domari (Jun 17, 2008)

danemama08 said:


> I agree completely with banning crop jobs in the US. I believe that its just cruel and pointless. Someone once told me that they were going to get the ears cropped on their new dane puppy, but when waiting in the reception room at the vet clinic on the day of surgery, he thought to himself: "Wow, his ears show almost as much expression as his eyes! I can't remove most of his ears just to make him suposedly look better, that would be like removing his eyes!" He then canceled the surgery for that day and took his floppy eared puppy home and has become one of the most passionate people I know about banning cropping/docking puppies. The AKC now recognizes natural eared danes, but they are very few and far between because the judges are biased to the old schools of thought. That is one reason I do not like the AKC and will not show my danes.
> 
> I have a friend that wants to adopt a dane with cropped ears because she likes the way that they look, but doesn't agree with cropping in the first place and doesn't have the heart in her to do it! I don't get it!


As I said before, my mother raised Dobermans. She did the tails, but brought the pups somewhere else to have the ears done. She and her other breeder buddies used to complain about how vets didn't know how to do the ears right, so they only brought the pups to other breeders to have the ears done. 
Then if there was one little mistake in cutting the ears off, or if the ears didn't stand up right, then all hell broke loose. It was if the dog was deemed totally useless! Really, how can a puppy be considered "useless" because some breeder didn't cut it's ears off perfectly???

I'm so happy I have a house full of "useless" muttlies with long tails and floppy ears. Life is good!!


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## domari (Jun 17, 2008)

BabyHusky said:


> Thats the sad thing with a lot of people in our society. They care enough to not do something themselves, but not enough to be totally against it.
> 
> I'm assuming your friend feels better if he/she gets a puppy that has already been cropped because then he/she wasn't the one that committed the cruel act.
> 
> My parents have been wanting dobermans forever, but I won't let them because my dad wants cropped and docked pups. I get all heated whenever he mentions it, so he has just decided to give up to shut me up. =)


Yay for you, don't give up being against something and willing to do something about it. 

As for your parents, don't give up on them either. Dobermans are great dogs, but see if you can find photos of puppies with long tails and floppy ears. If they absolutely NEED to have a Doberman, find a breeder or rescue that has pups that are uncropped and undocked. I betcha if your parents go look at a litter of pups that are au natural, they will fall in love with some little puppy with a long wiggly tail and floppy ears. 


Even better, bring them to a shelter and let them play with all the puppies! They might change their mind about getting a Doberman, and opt for an adorable mutt puppy instead.


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## qure2003 (Jul 22, 2008)

*hi*

how r u
???


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## kpollard (Aug 3, 2008)

The other big problem here is that you get uneducated people willing to pay a LOT of money for what is essentially a mutt--i.e. a goldendoodle, labradoodle, etc. Just the other day I was at Wal-Mart and there were some people selling goldendoodles in the parking lot. I stopped to ask them about it and they said the puppies were 800.00 apiece. No health certifications, nothing. And they had the gall to tell me that they were hypoallergenic. Three middle aged ladies who I'm sure got into the breeding business to make some money off the new 'doodle' fad. 

We have low cost clinics here, we actually just took Teddy to be neutered and for all of his shots plus the neuter and a heartworm test it was 90.00. No too bad at all.


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## Guest (Aug 4, 2008)

Ugh, don't even get me started on the whole Designer Mutt fad. It's ridiculous. I love mutts and mixes, but they should not be produced intentionally. I know several who are regulars at my store who have hip problems already. One 8 month old poodle/something else has already had surgery on his hips. Of course the "breeder" can't be gotten ahold of.

If people want a puppy they should do their research and go to a responsible breeder, NOT the newspaper or an internet puppy classifieds (such as next day pets, ick). Hell, go to a shelter for one of those designer mutts, they can be found easily there.

I think the "doodles" are highly unattractive, and the little ones all look the same to me. The only ones that are reasonably cute are the so called "puggles" but I'd still prefer a pug or beagle over the mix.


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## rannmiller (Jun 27, 2008)

Oh I know! I always see people with their cockapoos, shichons, and buggles and they talk about them like they're this wonderful purebred creature that's been around since the dawn of time or it's some terribly novel concept to have a mutt. They all just look like some fluffy, floppy mutt to me. 

When I told people I wanted to adopt my little Joey, they asked why I didn't just get a purebred puppy. First I told them the horrors of owning a puppy (joyful as they may be, I really prefer adults), the horrors of puppy mills, animal shelters, homeless pets, etc. 

Besides, Joey is pretty unique-looking so if anyone asks I tell them he's a purebred mutt.


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## rannmiller (Jun 27, 2008)

BabyHusky said:


> My parents have been wanting dobermans forever, but I won't let them because my dad wants cropped and docked pups. I get all heated whenever he mentions it, so he has just decided to give up to shut me up. =)


If your parents are willing to get an au natural Doberman, tell them to contact a breeder before a litter is born and request that they reserve one puppy for them that they don't hack to pieces. Without all that extra work, maybe that puppy will be less expensive too!


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## Guest (Aug 6, 2008)

rannmiller said:


> If your parents are willing to get an au natural Doberman, tell them to contact a breeder before a litter is born and request that they reserve one puppy for them that they don't hack to pieces. Without all that extra work, maybe that puppy will be less expensive too!


They'd be more likely to find a natural dobe by going to a shelter or Dobie rescue, as finding a responsible breeder who will leave one natural is going to be nearly impossible. There are several reasons a responsible breeder usually won't leave one natural. Tails are docked at 2-3 days old, and ears are cropped at about 6 to 7 weeks. It's nearly impossible to determine which ones will hit the conformation ring at that point in time, and if a dog gets returned it's harder to place if they've got natural ears. Dogs that are traditionally docked often have very thin tails that break open, and once they're broken open it's nearly impossible to heal. I know of several vets who amputate adult tails a couple times a month because of this issue. 

My next dog will be a Dobe, I've just not determined whether to go the rescue route again or responsible breeder.


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## Jacksie2006 (Jun 23, 2008)

RawFedDogs said:


> Vets run a business not a charity. Neutering isn't that expensive around here. I got a 1 1/2 yo Great Dane neutered vor $90. I thought that was very reasonablae. If you can't afford to neuter you can't afford a dog and shouldn't have one.


AGREED! You need to know that you will have these kind of expenses.


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## lorih1770 (Jun 17, 2008)

Doberman Rescues have PLENTY of clipped ears and natural ears, puppies, young, or older! A rescue will usually work with you to find exactly the dog that you want. Alot of times puppies don't make it to a website or petfinder because someone is already waiting for a puppy. There are SO many homeless dogs, with just a little searching and patience you can find the exact dog that you want through a rescue or shelter.

Look here for fun http://www.ildoberescue.com/displayDogs.php


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