# Had an incident yesterday, looking for advice please



## meganr66 (Mar 2, 2012)

Hi everybody, I switched my dogs over to RAW about 2 weeks or so ago. They've been eating chicken thighs and chicken leg quarters. Yesterday my 3 1/2 year old girl Belle had a bone stuck in her butt. It was diagonal almost, like it started to come out the wrong way it poked like right underneath the hole itself. She couldn't get it out obviously and it was painful, we had to take her to the vet and he was able to get it to come out. It was very stressful for me obviously but I am just wondering if anyone has ever heard of this before. From what came out I would say it was a drumstick from the leg quarter that hadn't been chewed enough. She is a gulper but I always try to make sure she at least chews all the bones at least some before swallowing. The vet that helped us out was not my normal vet since it was a sunday, but he was very nice besides for the fact that he was completely shocked and appalled that i would actually feed my dogs raw bones and raw meat. He went on to tell me that my dog is not a carnivore and feeding what I'm feeding is not a balanced diet and that he would NEVER give a dog a bone like I did because she could have gotten her stomach punctured and yadda yadda. I am just wondering if anyone knows why the bone would come through not digested, my husband was not very happy with the situation he was skeptical about raw in the first place and now is very unsure. I myself am unsure and very scared, if this was to happen again i don't know what i would do. just looking for some advice, thank you.


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## ShanniBella (Jul 1, 2011)

Hey Megan! I think I know you and Ozai from somewhere  GP maybe  anyways I just started Bella on PMR two days ago but why not try and stick with the chicken backs for now with your gulper? That's Some scary stuff! I'm not a pro....yet but I know they have more small bones and are easily digested. I'm sure someone else will give you far better advice but I had to say "hi"


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## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

Well, I'm sure people who have been feeding raw a long time can explain this better but i want to say I can totally understand your fear and confusion, and then having a vet tell you a dog is not a carnivore etc. etc. only makes you more afraid and unsure.

My dog ate a turkey leg the other day and then had bone come out. it's not uncommon. I think what IS uncommon is it getting stuck like that.

I would like to say that I don't think a puncture is very likely. When Snorkels swallowed whole deer ribs that were about twice as long as her stomach nothing got punctured. I did have them take them out by endoscopy but only because they were scratching her stomach. 

I wonder if you could try feeding frozen meat. They can't swallow that as easily.


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## Sprocket (Oct 4, 2011)

Hi! Glad you have undertaken such a proper diet for your beautiful dogs! 

First off, I just have to say that that vet is TOTALLY incorrect. Dogs ARE CARNIVORES, carnivores eat raw meat.


My dogs have been on PMRaw since october and just the other day I had some sizable bone come out of Gunners poop. No worries, just fed boneless that night to help him pass it along. 

Perhaps, you could smash whatever bone you are feeding with a mallet just to help them along with digestion.


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## Scarlett_O' (May 19, 2011)

I would say what is happening is your dog's body is telling you that it's time to cut back(slowly) on the bone content!!:thumb:

As everyone else has said, that vet is totally wrong, and yes many of us see bone chunks/shards/fragments in their stool...it just means its time for less bone!!:wink:

Glad to hear that you are doing raw, my dogs(well the 3 boys) have been on raw since last may, the kitties since June and August, Dixi since Sept and Keeva since she came home in Jan. They are all doing AMAZING...I wouldn't ever go back to processed foods for any of them...and I love laughing at people who are shocked and appalled at my feeding raw meat/bone/organs only and say that they need veggies and more!!LOL


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

from my experience, which is only two years old, it's rare for the bone to do what it did.....

if your dog is a gulper, you may want to feed bigger or feed frozen....

eventually, even my gulper pug slowed down a little...

your vet is very wrong, which you will see in a bout three to six months. and then you can give him stink eye....

dogs are carnivores. very much so.

it's not usual for a bone to get stuck that way.

oh. and ask that vet what is the most common obstruction in dogs and he will be forced to tell you or admit to socks.


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## NewYorkDogue (Sep 27, 2011)

Maybe put an emphasis on soft, bony necks (chicken, duck), instead of thighs/leg quarters. Chances are your dogs' stomach acids will digest/dissolve those without incident. And chicken backs are also a good idea...

At least until their systems become more adjusted to their new raw diet.

JMHO.


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

NewYorkDogue said:


> Maybe put an emphasis on soft, bony necks (chicken, duck), instead of thighs/leg quarters. Chances are your dogs' stomach acids will digest/dissolve those without incident. And chicken backs are also a good idea...
> 
> At least until their systems become more adjusted to their new raw diet.
> 
> JMHO.


hence the backs....and breast bone recommend.....they look too big to eat necks from chickens...ducks yeah....duck necks are nice and soft, too...


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## meganr66 (Mar 2, 2012)

thanks for the replies everyone! my internet is shut off im on my phone so bear with me lol! i have seen some shards in my youngest dogs poop one time since we started but not like what she had. thanks for all the advice, one thing i read to maybe smash the bones with a mallet? ive read that breaking the bones yourself can be harmful to the dogs, is that true or can i use a mallet? the past 2 meals have been very nerve wracking for me.. she has no idea she is just mad that im fluttering over her while she eats haha. as far as feeding backs goes, i have some on the way right now to my butcher they had to order me some ive just been waiting for it and had to feed what i have which is the thighs and quarters. the thighs were giving them loose stool so i was doing AM quarters and PM chicken thighs and it seemed to be working we had great poo up until the bone  definitely wont be giving the drumstick part ever again.. just hoping my backs come in soon i shoulda gotten a call today ill have to go check it out.


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

it's okay. 

breathe.

what happened is rare.

they both need to strengthen their jaws and teeth and mouth muscles and neck muscles and their digestive tract is going through a change, too.

if you hover, they will get nervous or mad and can you blame them? 

try to look nonchalant. i used to drink and read a book....well, not really read but it looked like i was.

eventually, they get it. some get it right away and some are like my pug.


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## Dude and Bucks Mamma (May 14, 2011)

I would have freaked too! But I don't think any of us have ever had an experience like that and some raw feeders here have been feeding this way for MANY years. I have been feeding raw since June 1st, 2011. Nearly a year. The first day I fed raw was the day I brought home my bluetick coonhound pup at 8 weeks old. 

I actually hand fed him the drumsticks so I knew he was crunching those up pretty well and then let him have his way with the thigh. We STILL hand feed the drumsticks if we don't take a hammer to them because I know he will swallow them. He is definitely my gulper. Buck has since swallowed multiple QUARTERS whole and had no ill effects. We do avoid quarters with him when we can because sometimes it is hard to keep him from swallowing it whole. We only feed quarters when we have nothing else and then we hover while he eats. Haha.

My 8 year old smooth collie, Dude, swallowed one whole once (he is not a gulper). We found it on the carpet by our bed that night. It was partially digested and you could see the carpet through the bone. It looked like you could just barely tap it and it would go *POOF* and dissolve. This was the first week of raw. You could see that his body was already digesting it but not nearly as fast as a well transitioned dog. 

If I were in your position I would take a hammer or mallet to the leg bone and break it up (not removing muscle meat from around it). Just smash the whole leg.

Or, it sounds like you could remove the leg bone completely. I do that when we need a meal with less bone but we only have chicken quarters which are about 30% bone.

This is how I do it. Lay the quarter out on a cutting board and slice the leg meat open from top to bottom. Use your fingers to seperate the meat from the middle of the bone between the joint that connects it to the thigh and the bottom joint. The meat around the bottom joint can literally just be peeled over the joint. You will then have the bone attached to the thigh at the top but bare on the bottom. Hyperextend the thigh joint until it snaps. You can then cut through the cartilage and remove the bone. You will have the leg meat hanging from the still intact thigh and you can just throw the leg bone away.


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## Makovach (Jan 24, 2012)

I just started my dogs on raw a little over three weeks ago. I too encountered some problems like you. 

First off. Your sub-vet is ignorant to common knowledge. The dog's digestive tract, ancestors, jaws, teeth, neck/shoulder muscles SCREAM carnivore. Dogs are carnivores. No matter how much "stuff" we feed them, they are intended to eat meat. They may be able to tolerate other foods like grains, veggies and fruits, but its not what is meant to be. As Re said, give it 3-6 months, you will notice a big difference. Dogs are carnivores. No matter how many years they have been selectively bred, or domesticated, we didn't change their insides. They just learned to tolerate it.

It must have been very scary to endure something like that. I would recommend feeding larger portions and maybe even feeding them frozen. If they have a lot of bone shards, like others mentioned, it may be time to cut back on bone. Just keep in mind, just because one dog is ready for change, the other may not be yet. Annie is eating 60% boneless, Tucker is still eating about 60% bone in, they have both been on PMR for the same amount of time. 

I think this may have been a fluke. I would try feeding another way, or softer bones. I never used a mallet, but I had to hold Tucker's food for him the first few meals until he realized he had to chew it.


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## wolfsnaps88 (Jan 2, 2012)

What happened to your dog is a very rare thing. The problem is, whenever there is an emergency with raw, its usually due to these types of rare things. Emergency vets see more because they are usually the only ones available to help. This might give them a skewed idea of how dogs handle digesting bones. Will this happen again is hard to say. My guess is that since you are so new to raw, the dog's digestive system is still trying to catch up to this new type of food. I imagine this can happen with experienced raw fed dogs as well, but I was not surprised to hear this was a new diet for him. 

I am sorry you had to go through this. Bone shards can be seen in poop from time to time. Many raw feeder have seen this before. In your case, the shard was large (perhaps because of the gulping tendencies?) and came out wrong. It could happen to anyone though. Sometimes babies come out backwards (breech). Doesn't mean we should stop having babies.

I would give less bone for now until the dog learns how to digest it. Not weight bearing bones, even from chickens. So, no legs. Try backs. If you can't get backs, try breast bone or lamb ribs. You will have to work your way up to denser bones. If you worry about calcium intake, you can feed him crushed (into a powder) eggshells for the time being. 

Every dog is different on how they transition. You just got unlucky I think.


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## CoverTune (Dec 20, 2011)

I'm not sure if anyone has mentioned it here but... it takes time for their system to develop/build up the enzymes necessary to break down and digest bone. As their systems get used to the new diet, they'll adapt and be better able to digest the bone, so you won't likely see big pieces like that in the future.


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## meganr66 (Mar 2, 2012)

thanks for the input everyone! since the incident ive been giving what bigger pieces i have and she seems to be chewing much better. i have a case of backs coming in but they aren't here yet or else i wouldn't have gotten the quarters in the first place most likely! the first week and a half or so up until when the bone got stuck i didn't see any shards or fragments at all but we were very up and down with poo since the thighs i was giving were so much meat and not enough bone. since it got stuck i saw one small fragment but it was in some solid poo that i was checking out and it was muuuuuch smaller than the one that got stuck. i haven't given her anymore drumsticks and dont intend on it so hopefully this won't happen again.


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## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

I'm very glad to hear it. I have to say, if that had happened to one of my dogs right when we first started out I'm not sure i would have stayed as committed as you


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## SerenityFL (Sep 28, 2010)

meganr66:

Here's something I wrote about a year ago. I hope it helps you feel better that we ALL learn as we go. (It's long, I'm kinda known as a story teller 'round these parts...)

Enjoy:

http://dogfoodchat.com/forum/raw-feeding/6556-i-kind-screwed-up.html


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## Chocx2 (Nov 16, 2009)

I know this sounds a little funny, but I have gulpers, when I started them on raw I would keep the chicken partly frozen and hold the end of it, I almost had to teach them to eat it properly. Someone on this forum had told me to do it like that, thank you, and it worked. That was almost 4 years ago. I have done it that way with all four of mine and yes I got bit a couple of times, the dog not meaning to of course. Just make sure you wash hands good after if you get bit, I mean the wound.
And take your time and keep up the good work, it will all be ok.
Also with chewers like that I have seen one person just feed it frozen..


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## meganr66 (Mar 2, 2012)

Thanks again! I gave partially frozen this morning and she took awhile to chew it up and chewed up all the bones well it seemed and then later on had a solid stool so she is doing well! And xellil, i was terrified but i had them on raw for 6 months about 2 years ago and never had a problem and she always had quarters so i was mostly just confused and obviously scared for her! i have held pieces of meat for her in the past and still occasionally do, it's just kinda trial and error i guess! and serenityFL- LOL @ your story! poor belle tried to poo out that bone for like 5 minutes straight and never uttered a cry! luckily for me i have a fenced in backyard so nobody gets to watch me feed them chicken or them poop it out LOL


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## MollyWoppy (Mar 19, 2010)

Off topic, I'll apologise right now. But, SerenityFL where the hell have you been??? I've missed you! So happy to see you back. 

And, meganr66, my Mollie also had a couple of painful poo's in the first couple of months. It wasn't nice at 6am hearing her screaming as she tried to poop. My fault, too much bone, but she was fine once it was out, although it took some explaining to the neighbours. 
Keep on at it, in a years time you'll be so happy you stuck it out.


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## Makovach (Jan 24, 2012)

I'm glad you decided to stick it out and keep on truckin! Also glad to hear that your dogs are doing better with their eating habits.


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## SerenityFL (Sep 28, 2010)

MollyWoppy said:


> Off topic, I'll apologise right now. But, SerenityFL where the hell have you been??? I've missed you! So happy to see you back.


I'm not necessarily "back". I was interested in seeing re's success with trying something different.

I'm still ticked off about the whole dog fight thread and I doubt I'll ever get over that.


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