# New to forum and Canidae problems...



## kevin bradley (Aug 9, 2009)

Hello everyone...I'm new(at least to posting to the forum). I appreciate the advice I've gotten here. Thank you. 

Well, I've got 3 shelter dogs that are pretty much my life. For years, I fed them Nutro, Pedigree...mainly because my Vet said-"Just feed them a name brand, most anything is fine." Thanks to the internet, I stumbled onto sites like this one and Dogfoodanalysis and began learning more. 

This led me to Innova, Chicken Soup, Evo, TOTW, Canidae, and California Natural as foods I've implemented to their rotation...pretty much in that order. 

Well, I debated and debated about the Canidae due to what I kept reading on the internet. I certainly don't mind spending the extra money but like many, I like to save where possible and Canidae seemed to provide the best bang for the buck. And I did read where it was still a 5 star food and did work for many...So I grabbed a bag at my local store...44 lbs for about $40. I started feeding just a small amount to my 3 dogs...maybe a 1/4 cup a day...progressing to about 1 cup on about day 6 or 7. 2 of the 3 have had no issues. Not the story with my small Beagle. 

On about day 7, my small Beagle started vomitting. I mean, really vomitting. 
At least 10-12 times, and nonstop for about 24 hours. Of course, this is from a Thurs to a Friday so when I get home from work on Friday and she is still vomitting, I decide I better call the VET. Luckily, with 3 dogs, I'm pretty close to him so he meets me at his office at 7 pm. She is so dehydrated from throwing up, he puts her on an IV and keeps her overnight. He even told me that she was so dehydrated that he wasn't sure she would have made it to Saturday had I not brought her in. Well, she improved...and none of the tests he ran on her proved much of anything. No Pancreatitis or noticeable infections or anything he could find. The visit was $400, but I was glad she was ok. 

I was hesitant to post this, especially as my first post. And, I cannot say with 1000% certainty that Canidae was the culprit. But I will say this...she is an inside Dog with no exposure to anything else that would harm her. There was nothing in the house she got into nor nothing in the yard I could find. I won't let her touch the food again and once my other 2 are done with this bag, that's it. I may be crazy for letting them finish the bag but they do like the food and I haven't seen any signs of anything negative from them. 

Anyhow, I'm sorry for the long first post...I look forward to learning more from all of you. 

Kevin
Battle Creek, MI


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## harrkim120 (Feb 2, 2010)

Welcome...and don't worry about the long post. You're better off making it long than not giving enough information.:biggrin:

As for the Canidae issues, this a post that has been going on for a few days now. Some of the info here might be helpful.

http://dogfoodchat.com/forum/dry-canned-dog-food/2414-few-questions-about-high-protein-dog-foods-canidae.html

On a more vague note...it's very possible that an ingredient in there just really, really didn't agree with her. Which variety of Canidae do you have them on?


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## kevin bradley (Aug 9, 2009)

thanks for the quick reply and link. I'll be sure to check it out. 

Itty(Itty Bitty is her name)....was eating the ALS-I believe that's the name. It was just the basic formula as I understand it. 

One note...I want to be careful and say that I didn't intend to attack Canidae. As I understand it, the food is excellent for many dogs. And, honestly...I was very excited about the food...seems excellent on paper and I would have loved to save some money. I mean, it is FAR less expensive than the Natura products-at least in my area. For those who can use Canidae, be thankful...you are saving lots of money. 

thanks again...everyone. Glad to be here.


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## Khan (Jan 17, 2010)

First of all I'm Glad she's OK!!
I tend to agree with Harrkim120
There may be an ingredient that doesn't agree with her.
I can tell you from experience Khan is allergic to FLAX! Something that is in almost every food/treat because it's soo good for you, he has explosive diarrhea from the smallest amount. It took me 3 months to figure out the culprit; but once eliminated the diarrhea went away. 
I would take a look at the different ingredients between what she was getting and what's in the new food. Khan came home from the breeder on Purina Pro Plan, then after going thru several high quality foods I compared Purina to the ones he was on, guess what all the high quality ones had Flax while Purina did not. Flax is obviously not a main ingredient, yet the results were not pretty! 
Good luck!
Khan sends get well slobbers her way!!


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## Todd (Jan 13, 2010)

yea, I'd suspect a food allergy. i don't believe you said whether you're using the original formula or the grain-free formula. i'm guessing the original formula given the price. am i correct?


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## kevin bradley (Aug 9, 2009)

Todd, just the regular(not the grain free)...ALS formula. 

Khan, do you think it would be Flax issues if she's been ok on all the other brands?...CN, TOTW, Innova Adult, CSoup...nothing did this to her...so I'm wondering if it is something else in the food. Seriously, aside from the $400 vet bill, I was so dissapointed that I couldn't use Canidae. Between 3 dogs, I go through about 40-50 lbs every month(this is a guess)...so my savings would have been pretty nice.

Thanks for the replies, everyone. ITTY is doing great now. She's quite the little Beagle. I found her walking around town...took her to the shelter as she was micro chipped....owner's didn't want her back so I went back and got her. She's got a huge heart...tries as hard as she can even though she wasn't blessed with a whole lot of ability...IE-she sure ain't no border collie ....she's on California Natural and some EVO and TOTW(what all was mixed in the container) now and doing well. 

Oh yeah, did I also say that while Beagles are nice...they sure do pack a lot of Naughty into little bodies?


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## wags (Jan 31, 2009)

Canidae has had a bit of problems recalls and such. Some people find they get good results on the food others complain alot about the food since the formula transition. When companies swicth food ingredients not sharing with the public people get angry and the dogs have issues. For me I stick away from diamond products just dont like the canidae switcharoo!
Are you thinking of switching to another brand?
If you go to the web sight of the brand your useing you can see if they offer coupons and such to lighten the cost burden!:wink:
I know though that flaxseed is great for omega-3's. for the dogs immune system. and is highly digestible for dogs as well as humans. so hopefully this is not the problem! Since you have been checking the ingredients in the dog foods is there some foods without flaxseed in them I really dont know!


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## RCTRIPLEFRESH5 (Feb 11, 2010)

kevin bradley said:


> thanks for the quick reply and link. I'll be sure to check it out.
> 
> Itty(Itty Bitty is her name)....was eating the ALS-I believe that's the name. It was just the basic formula as I understand it.
> 
> ...


im the author of the post that was linked. anyway my dog has been on canidae for a few years and hes very healthy. i was concerned about all the people who hd issues with the new formulation, so i am still considering changing. i am also concerned about the act that they use fish preservatives in their foods linked to cancers.

but in all honesty, canidaes grain free formula looks like the NUMBER 1 food on the market to me. it is the only food with 80 percent of its proteins coming from meats. even orijen only has 70 percent protei ncoming from meats. it is also very cheap for a premium food.(43 dollars with tax for 30 pounds) its grain free. also it can be found locally.


also natura is known for just as many recalls as diamond. canidae has NEVER been recalled, yet innova,california natural etc have all been, and those are natura foods. also natura is affiliated withmenu foods and they were the main recall people, and they make foods like purina and iams, and pedigree.


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## kevin bradley (Aug 9, 2009)

thanks Wags. 

Yeah, I'm in the process of switching completely. I can't keep Canidae in the house after this...after I get through this bag-2/3 are doing fine with it. But I can't get it again...and risk her getting any of it and getting sick. Just too expensive of a risk. 

Right now, I am leaning towards sticking with Natura. I bought a couple bags of California Natural, mixing it with the EVO still in the tub...thinking I'll also get some more EVO and stick with that plan...CN + EVO for a little more protein. After you shell out $400 for a Vet visit, you become a little cautious  and I know she's ok on those foods.


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## kevin bradley (Aug 9, 2009)

RCTRIPLEFRESH5 said:


> im the author of the post that was linked. anyway my dog has been on canidae for a few years and hes very healthy. i was concerned about all the people who hd issues with the new formulation, so i am still considering changing. i am also concerned about the act that they use fish preservatives in their foods linked to cancers.
> 
> but in all honesty, canidaes grain free formula looks like the NUMBER 1 food on the market to me. it is the only food with 80 percent of its proteins coming from meats. even orijen only has 70 percent protei ncoming from meats. it is also very cheap for a premium food.(43 dollars with tax for 30 pounds) its grain free. also it can be found locally.
> 
> ...



REALLY? WOW, I have never read where Natura had all of these recalls. Now I'm confused big time. Based on my research, two companies seem to stand above the rest-Natura and Champion(Orijen)...probably throw Wellness in there also. 

Admittedly, this all gets confusing the more you read.


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## Todd (Jan 13, 2010)

kevin bradley said:


> thanks Wags.
> 
> Yeah, I'm in the process of switching completely. I can't keep Canidae in the house after this...after I get through this bag-2/3 are doing fine with it. But I can't get it again...and risk her getting any of it and getting sick. Just too expensive of a risk.
> 
> Right now, I am leaning towards sticking with Natura. I bought a couple bags of California Natural, mixing it with the EVO still in the tub...thinking I'll also get some more EVO and stick with that plan...CN + EVO for a little more protein. After you shell out $400 for a Vet visit, you become a little cautious  and I know she's ok on those foods.


you should not mix evo and california natural or any other grain-free food with a food with grain. they both digests at different rates and could cause digestive upset.


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## RCTRIPLEFRESH5 (Feb 11, 2010)

kevin bradley said:


> REALLY? WOW, I have never read where Natura had all of these recalls. Now I'm confused big time. Based on my research, two companies seem to stand above the rest-Natura and Champion(Orijen)...probably throw Wellness in there also.
> 
> Admittedly, this all gets confusing the more you read.


wellness and orijen are safe bets. wellness core is a food im considering, and if orijen was closer and i knew that orijen red was made to be mroe available i would mauybe drive 1.5 hours to get that and buy 2 bags at a time.

but orijen is in a shortage and they also dont giver samples to my knowledge. 9which is a big factor because i need to know if my dog likes it before driving 1.5 hours and spending 120 dollars on 60 pounds)

i would assume since my dog is doing well on canidae ALS, he would do fine on grain free canidae. i will try that first.


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## wags (Jan 31, 2009)

This may help out. This is a pet food recall list as of Jan 11, 2010~

Pet Food Recall Products List


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## RCTRIPLEFRESH5 (Feb 11, 2010)

wags said:


> This may help out. This is a pet food recall list as of Jan 11, 2010~
> 
> Pet Food Recall Products List


champion was recalled/ they make orijen food.


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## malluver1005 (Nov 15, 2009)

RCTRIPLEFRESH5 said:


> also natura is known for just as many recalls as diamond. canidae has NEVER been recalled, yet innova,california natural etc have all been, and those are natura foods.


Where did you get your sources that Natura was involved in a recall? Diamond is on the list that wags provided, but not Natura. I don't feed kibble anymore, but I would still like to know.

I can't find anything that says Natura has been involved in a recall. This link that I provided is one of the largest dog food recalls in 07.

http://www.accessdata.fda.gov/scripts/petfoodrecall/


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## harrkim120 (Feb 2, 2010)

RCTRIPLEFRESH5 said:


> champion was recalled/ they make orijen food.


Ah, but if you look it was only 2 of their biscuits. I know, it would be better off if they didn't have any, but I'm not too worried if it was just biscuits.


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## Ania's Mommy (Feb 8, 2009)

RCTRIPLEFRESH5 said:


> but orijen is in a shortage and they also dont giver samples to my knowledge. 9which is a big factor because i need to know if my dog likes it before driving 1.5 hours and spending 120 dollars on 60 pounds)


Orijen DOES have samples. They come in 1lb bags and they're about $2-$3. While I understand that most other companies have sample packets that are free, I think that the way Orijen does it is better. 

I mean, the typical sample packet is not even enough for a whole meal for most dogs. So when you give it to them, they might look at it like a treat instead of their dinner. So, of COURSE they're going to like it. But long term, that may not be the case. 

The 1lb bag that Orijen offers really gives your dog a chance to decide if they like it.

Richelle


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## Ania's Mommy (Feb 8, 2009)

Todd said:


> you should not mix evo and california natural or any other grain-free food with a food with grain. they both digests at different rates and could cause digestive upset.


I think you might be confusing raw and kibble digestion rates. Grain inclusive and grain exclusive kibble digest at the same rate. So mixing them is fine. :biggrin:

However, I'm not sure why you'd want... Why shell out the big bucks for grain free and then add grain? Seems kind of contradictory to me...

Richelle


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## harrkim120 (Feb 2, 2010)

Todd said:


> you should not mix evo and california natural or any other grain-free food with a food with grain. they both digests at different rates and could cause digestive upset.


My understanding is that although this is true when mixing raw or cooked "real" food with kibble, it does not matter when mixing different brands or types of kibble. Once the meats become processed, as it is in any kibble, they all end up being digested the same way, some with just more meat. It is also my understanding that while grains are difficult for them to digest, it is really any form of carbs that gives them the trouble, and even if it's low carb they still need some to make the food dry. Mostly I've heard that they recommend not to mix different brands of kibble because it will mess up the vitamin and mineral balance in the foods. Or so they say... Now I could be wrong, but when I was feeding kibble, I would sometimes mix them, including some no grain varieties with grain ones. I've heard of many people doing the same with no ill result. 

I say that if your dog is doing fine with the 2 types mixed and your happy with it, then stick with it. Although, if ever possible I would recommend just going over completely to a no grain food. Much better for them overall. :biggrin:


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## harrkim120 (Feb 2, 2010)

Ania's Mommy said:


> I think you might be confusing raw and kibble digestion rates. Grain inclusive and grain exclusive kibble digest at the same rate. So mixing them is fine. :biggrin:
> 
> However, I'm not sure why you'd want... Why shell out the big bucks for grain free and then add grain? Seems kind of contradictory to me...
> 
> Richelle


Awww...this the second time in 2 days that someone has beaten me to the punch while I've been writing a reply. I'm just going to give one word replies now, I swear!!! lol


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## Ania's Mommy (Feb 8, 2009)

harrkim120 said:


> Awww...this the second time in 2 days that someone has beaten me to the punch while I've been writing a reply. I'm just going to give one word replies now, I swear!!! lol


Yeah, but you explained better. :wink:

Richelle


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## wags (Jan 31, 2009)

RCTRIPLEFRESH5 said:


> champion was recalled/ they make orijen food.


Gee not to be rude, but that is a bisquit recal RCTRIPLEFRESH5 not the dog food!


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## Unosmom (May 3, 2009)

I cant find anything regarding Natura recalls.

The only issue that Champion pet foods had was when it was shipped to Australia and irradiated to kill any bacteria during shipment, the problem is that Orijen is baked at lower temperatures then regular kibble, so when they did the irradiation it changed the chemical makeup of the food which proved to cause adverse reaction in cats (neurological damage)
I dont know whether it was Australias fault because Orijen/Acana is shipped worldwide and they are the only country that had issues. Maybe they used higher levels or radiation because of the distance and type of transport. 
Either way, it had nothing to do with quality of the food or the company, IMO.


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## Khan (Jan 17, 2010)

Not sure if Flax is her problem. My suggestions would be to look at all the foods she has done well on, and compare ingredients. If I remember correctly CN Lamb and Rice does NOT have Flax. I do not know about the others. Canidae Grain Free Salmon formula does not have Flax, and neither does the Orijen Large Breed Puppy. I know this because those were the 2 foods that I had to choose from for Khan. Although he did better on those foods, he still was having issues and showing signs of Malabsorption Syndrome. I have since stopped feeding kibble to him and he is now eating food I prepare. I am not feeding completely by the Prey Model as most people are; but in the last 3-4 weeks his skin has stopped itching, his one ear is yeast free, and he has started gaining weight!


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## kevin bradley (Aug 9, 2009)

thanks KHAN. Appreciate the response. Itty has been on Pedigree, Nutro, Evo, Innova, Natural Choice, TOTW(the one with Bison), Chicken Soup, California Natural....Canidae. Pretty much all Chicken Formulas(except the TOTW). 

And, a bunch of cannned food too. She's been on so many foods that any type of allergy or other issues never occurred to me. I've always felt bad for those of you with finicky stomachs for your kids(Dogs)...I never experienced and admittedly got laxed, taking it for granted that mine "never" have issues. 

Man, I have so many thoughts/questions/Confusion...I could literally think of about 5 posts I'd like to put out here for discussion. The more I research stuff online, the more twisted and turned I get. 

Case in point...I went out to the forum with a lady who did something called the Dog Food Project. Man, this lady is strict. There are foods that many out here love that she wouldn't endorse. The only brands I can find her REALLY endorse are Champion, Wellness, and Natura. She does seem to know her stuff, without a doubt. 

Also, I wandered into my local Menard's last night and they are selling Dogfood. They've got Diamond Naturals Extreme Athlete Chicken and Rice...so I start reading the label...32% Protein. First 2 ingredients are named meat products. It's got some Beat Pulp in there which I know ain't great...but overall, a pretty solid looking product. So I go out to Dog Food Analysis and its only 3 stars. I would have guessed 4-5 stars. 

Anyhow, lots of questions. I'll try to stay calm but don't be surprised if I start hitting you guys with lots of questions.


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## Khan (Jan 17, 2010)

I know how you feel. I have never had any issues with any of my other dogs. I have been feeding "high quality" food for ALOT longer than it's been "In Style" to do so. At first I thought it was just switching Khan from crappy food to good food; but when he continued to have problems, and stopped growing!  at 4-5 months old, I started looking around at other options. That's what brought me to this forum. Yay!!
I looked into pre-packaged raw foods that are on the market; but man it was just waay to expensive. His food bill for a month would have been $150+. 
I've never been accused of not giving my dogs whatever they need; but that was a little excessive!! 
Like I said, I am not completely following the Prey Model Diet; but what I am doing is very easy, and he has been doing great. The price is comparable to the 50-60 dollars I was spending on kibble a month. Couldn't ask for more!

I agree with the information overload. There is a pro/con for everything. By the time you are done reading you don't know what to do 

You may want to try going on some sort of Limited Ingredient diet. Cal Nat falls under this category, but if she didn't do well on this you may just try giving her canned chicken/turkey with some rice. It will calm her system down from everything she's just been thru, and give her a chance to process food that is easy. I did this with Khan. You can find low sodium turkey/chicken in the tuna fish isle. Put her on that for a week or so. When you start to add the kibble, very slowly, a few pieces at a time, if there is any change in her system/poo it will be like a huge neon sign. 

I hope some of these suggestions helps! I hope I didn't add to your Info Overload!! :biggrin:


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## DaneMama (Jun 27, 2008)

kevin bradley said:


> thanks KHAN. Appreciate the response. Itty has been on Pedigree, Nutro, Evo, Innova, Natural Choice, TOTW(the one with Bison), Chicken Soup, California Natural....Canidae. Pretty much all Chicken Formulas(except the TOTW).
> 
> And, a bunch of cannned food too. She's been on so many foods that any type of allergy or other issues never occurred to me. I've always felt bad for those of you with finicky stomachs for your kids(Dogs)...I never experienced and admittedly got laxed, taking it for granted that mine "never" have issues.
> 
> ...


There are never any questions that we can't help you figure out. Once you open the door on canine nutrition, it stays open continually gathering information. Don't ever hesitate to post up and ask for help. That is exactly why this forum is here! :wink:


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## Todd (Jan 13, 2010)

danemama08 said:


> There are never any questions that we can't help you figure out. Once you open the door on canine nutrition, it stays open continually gathering information. Don't ever hesitate to post up and ask for help. That is exactly why this forum is here! :wink:


I agree. I believe that any condition is most effectively address with nutrition first, and medications/supplements as a secondary resort.


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## kevin bradley (Aug 9, 2009)

thanks everyone. 

Khan, WOW...something I may have gotten right(by chance)...she's on Cal Natural RIGHT now. Chicken and Rice. 

Quick question...these things hit me every second of the day...

We know Natura/Innova/Evo is a pretty uncompromised company...and by most accounts, even a step ahead of most of the other decent foods....

Then WHY does the Cal Natural food have such little protein(21% on the bag I bought)...this seems to contradict most of what I've been reading and that is the fact that most dogs need lots and lots of protein and all the kidney damage stuff is innaccurate. Why would a company such as Natura go against this? I get that the food is designed for sensitive stomachs but what does that have to do w/ needing more chicken in the bag?


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## Unosmom (May 3, 2009)

California Natural is a very limited ingridient diet thats designed for dogs with allergies or digestive problems. Not something I would feed, but I know couple people who's dogs vomit any other food except this one(they cannot tolerate more then a certain % of protein), so it really comes down to what works best for your pet.

Thats one of the reasons I like Natura is that they cater to individual dogs' needs, though I wish they had a slightly less protein version of Evo. 
I like that they also make Healthwise which is very affordable and I always get it when I donate food to rescues.


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## Khan (Jan 17, 2010)

If Itty is on Cal Nat and doing well, then I would say you are Golden!! :wink: I know from feeding my other dogs Cal Nat for the last 6-7 years not one of them had any issues. When I switched from Innova to Cal Nat the gas we had lived with in our house for YEARS went away!! We had always lived with it, and when I realized their food was causing it because their were soo many ingredients in regular Innova. I think my husband was more mad knowing we had lived for years and didn't need to.
As far as the protein % is concerned I'm no expert, but if the protein comes from a good source, and there is not a bunch of other "crap" or to be more PC I should probably say "fillers" I say don't worry about it.
Their is another thread about high protein% and as I posted in that one, if the phosphorous and calcium % are within certain levels the stigma of a large puppy/dog getting too much protein is not what it was a few years back.
I think the best advise though is to look at each individual dog and tailor their food to what best fits them. Use the feeding guides on the back as a guide. Look at their weight, their coat, their poo! Adjust accordingly.


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## wags (Jan 31, 2009)

I posted a question I got answered from canidae in the general dog discussion. May be of interest to you.


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