# Raw Feeding for dogs



## gwalk (May 31, 2017)

Hi! My name is Gayle Walker. I live in Lubbock, Texas. I have two Standard Poodles Max and Abby. Max is 4 and Abby is 9. Max is a 2 time bloat survivor. Abby has Addison's disease. Max bloated in 2014 with a twisted stomach. He did have surgery to have the stomach tacked. He bloated again last week. Had to be tubed to release the gas and has had a ruff few days. As of a couple of days ago doing much better. I am seriously thinking of getting him on a raw diet as he was eating dry both times that he experienced bloat. I would really appreciate any help and positive feedback on balanced raw feeding as I will be new at this. I have heard of good things on raw feeding for dogs that are prone to bloat and how they can digest raw better. Thanks for any info in advance for those of you that would know and that could help me educate myself on properly balancing raw meals for Max.


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## naturalfeddogs (Jan 6, 2011)

Welcome to DFC! I've never had to deal with bloat, but I know some with danes who have. From what I have learned about it from them, raw is "safer" for bloat prone dogs because they do digest more food, more effectively. Also, by feeding large chunks of meat meat and bone they have to chew and tear, thus usually slower eating. That helps. But that's no guarantee of no bloat. Just lowers the risk somewhat. The pexy procedure isn't a guarantee either( as you have found). But again, it can lower the risk. 

Im sure you know this, but even with raw I would give it a good hour after eating before any rigorous play and running. Even though mine aren't a breed prone to bloat, I still make them stay chilled out after eating. In fact, I feed mine later in the evening when they are in for the night, and about bed time.


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## gwalk (May 31, 2017)

Yes I am very careful with play/exercise before and after meals and water. Max has a very wide chest and I know that has a lot to do with his bloating, but I do know that dry kibble can do it to. My main issue is learning how to balance everything daily for Max. I just do not understand it all about balancing daily raw meals. Would you start him out on leg quarters for his size with maybe a little organ meat? I just need to kind of know how to get started.


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## naturalfeddogs (Jan 6, 2011)

Balance comes over time, rather than by meal. Once transitioned through the proteins you can certainly mix different proteins and organs. 

Starting with quarters is fine, and stay with them for about a week to a week and a half to be sure all is going well. After that move on to the next protein and do the same. 

Its really not the rocket science some make it out to be. Feed all the variety you can, and and giving organs either small amounts daily or larger amounts weekly. Which ever works best for your dog, and you will achieve balance. In variety, raw meat bone and organs supply all the nutrients a dog needs.


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## gwalk (May 31, 2017)

Thank you so much!! IF I could ask one more question? Do most feed twice a day? I was told that if I fed Max at least 3-4 times a day it would help as far as bloat since he is prone to bloat. How many quarters a day for a dog Max's size? He was 64lbs. but has lost about 3-4 lbs. since he bloated. Probably about 61lbs. If I knew about how many would be the norm I could space them out.


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## naturalfeddogs (Jan 6, 2011)

When I feed my aussies quarters they get two a piece. That seems to be what works for them. Any more and they will just not eat the third, or we have one who when he does gets cannon butt from over feeding. But, your dog isn't my dog. Yours may need more or less, or just the same. For your situation with bloat, twice a day may be better, so try breaking it up with one in the am, and another in the pm. Adjust amount at each feeding from there according to body condition.


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## OldGnarlHead (Feb 17, 2016)

Take his weight times 2.5% (.025) and you will get the amount he should eat for maintenance. You don't have to do this but it can help as a baseline. Chicken quarters were too bone heavy for my dog at first but removing the backs helped. Also, definitely feed super small amounts of organ at first, like fingernail sized, or you can risk cannon butt.


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## gwalk (May 31, 2017)

I fed Max 1 whole leg quarter for the first time as his meal last night. Added some chicken liver and 1 sardine from the can. (haven't been able to find fresh sardines here). He ate it all and chewed it good. He has done well since then. Small poop last night and this morning. I did have some ground turkey cooked up and fed him that this morning with a tad of chicken liver, sardine, little cooked sweet potato, tad broccoli, tad kelp powder, tad ground ginger and little bit of raw egg. Would it be proper to feed him the cooked once a day in the morning like that and raw in the evening? Or would it be better to just do raw twice a day? So it would be better to give him organ maybe every 3 days instead of every day right?


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## naturalfeddogs (Jan 6, 2011)

Raw twice a day. Cooking depletes nutrients. All of the veggies aren't needed, in fact like stated earlier, they convert to sugar, and are carbs. Both of which yeast thrive on. Therefore yeasty problems and infections. You are doing more harm than good by adding in all the non raw stuff. There is nothing in any of them that isn't already in raw meat/bone/organs, and in a form the dogs body can actually use. 

If if he's doing ok with organs at this point, small amounts are fine every couple of days. Some people give small amounts daily, or like me a larger amount weekly. It's it's up to you and how well your dog handles it.


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## gwalk (May 31, 2017)

Ok got it! I do understand that now. Wasn't sure about that as far as raw and cooked so raw it is. Would you give a little pure pumpkin daily to help with regulating poops or not? Thank you so much for taking your time to reply! It means a lot to me that stranger would take time out of their life to help me understand this.


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## naturalfeddogs (Jan 6, 2011)

Whole edible raw bone keeps the poop firm. That's one of its jobs. No pumpkin needed.


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## OtherGuy (Nov 30, 2016)

gwalk said:


> Thank you so much!! IF I could ask one more question? Do most feed twice a day? I was told that if I fed Max at least 3-4 times a day it would help as far as bloat since he is prone to bloat. How many quarters a day for a dog Max's size? He was 64lbs. but has lost about 3-4 lbs. since he bloated. Probably about 61lbs. If I knew about how many would be the norm I could space them out.


I believe the best evidence on GVD supports one meal a day (at the conclusion of work/play for the day and after a cool-down period) so that dogs don't run on full bellies.

Unlike kibble-based meals, PRM meals are dense and are low-volume.

After transitioning do aim for a fair amount of fat (near one-third of the "meat") to keep energy high relative to mass.

I have a different perspective that some in terms of roughly balancing daily meals, and would expecially follow more balance meals with a dog that was a risk for GVD. I would not want to feed very heavy bone meals to make up for boneless days, personally.

As it is chicken quarters have about 2 1/2 times the bone of the optimal PMR ratio (a ratio that hits the ctitical Calcium/Phosphorus balance of 1.2:1.

Too much bone as a stand alone meal. Not wise IMO. 

I lost a beloved dog in my youth to blaot/torsion. Part of my attraction to PRM is to reduce the odds of GVD for my current Vizsla (a breed with medium-high risks).

Best wishes,

Bill


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## OldGnarlHead (Feb 17, 2016)

I know PerfectlyRawsome (a partner with Raw Feeding Miami) just recently had one of her dogs bloat while feeding large chunks of PMR (he was a gulper however, and he is now fine. She cuts his food into smaller pieces now). Everything I have read on bloat and volvulus is to feed smaller quantities multiple times a day.

Also remember, pumpkin is extremely carb heavy, so that is not a good thing. The PMR equivalent, like Jenny said, is bone. You don't want to 'regulate' his poops either; his poop is your way of telling what he needs or does not need.


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## OtherGuy (Nov 30, 2016)

Running a dog on a full belly is a risk factor in bloat, so with meals based on meat and animal products (that don't have the swelling and gas formation issues of kibble) I'd opt for a once a day feed at days end.

Dogs should sleep after eating.

Bill


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## gwalk (May 31, 2017)

So you would maybe just feed the thigh with extra meat, so you wouldn't be feeding so much bone at that feeding?


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## gwalk (May 31, 2017)

naturalfeddogs said:


> Balance comes over time, rather than by meal. Once transitioned through the proteins you can certainly mix different proteins and organs.
> 
> Starting with quarters is fine, and stay with them for about a week to a week and a half to be sure all is going well. After that move on to the next protein and do the same.
> 
> Its really not the rocket science some make it out to be. Feed all the variety you can, and and giving organs either small amounts daily or larger amounts weekly. Which ever works best for your dog, and you will achieve balance. In variety, raw meat bone and organs supply all the nutrients a dog needs.


 So to help me understand better when feeding one whole leg quarter of the chicken. That would make the meat 80% and the bone 10%? Or would it be better to get that with just the thigh with bone and more meat added? Just trying to understand this. Sorry it may take me a bit to get it.


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## gwalk (May 31, 2017)

Thanks for that!


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## gwalk (May 31, 2017)

Thanks for that info!


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## gwalk (May 31, 2017)

Thanks for the info!


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## gwalk (May 31, 2017)

Ok so Max has had a motility issue with digestion off and on since his bloat in 2014 to where if he threw up hours later after eating his dry kibble it would still be in his stomach. Does anyone know if I should do anything in particular to try to offset that for the better? Like maybe feeding more instead of just twice a day? Does anyone know if that if feeding more often and less would be a wiser thing to do?


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## OldGnarlHead (Feb 17, 2016)

Since raw digests differently (faster from everywhere I've seen, at least. I'll try to find you the barium study I saw a year or so ago) I don't think it would be an issue. The only thing I can think of is that it takes a bit for a dog's body to get used to digesting raw and start firing on all cylinders, you could feed more often if you felt like it until you are comfortable. I don't have a whole lot of experience with bloat/volvulus but I definitely think raw is a good way to go with it.


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## gwalk (May 31, 2017)

So I have fed on raw for 2 days now to both dogs. My female has not pooped. Is that normal? Max has but not a whole lot. I do know that their poops are normally some what smaller when feeding raw, but not pooping in a couple of days? She did throw up a little yellow junk first thing this morning and from what I understand that can happen. I was just a little worried about her not pooping yet. And neither one of them are drinking very little water, but they seem to feel alright.


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## naturalfeddogs (Jan 6, 2011)

Sometimes mine poop every other day, but yes less poop is normal. However if straining to poop like constipated, then that's from too much bone.

On raw, they drink less water. Perfectly normal. They are getting lots of moisture out of raw, where kibble is like chocking down dry cornbread. Raw meat has a high water content.


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## gwalk (May 31, 2017)

naturalfeddogs said:


> Sometimes mine poop every other day, but yes less poop is normal. However if straining to poop like constipated, then that's from too much bone.
> 
> On raw, they drink less water. Perfectly normal. They are getting lots of moisture out of raw, where kibble is like chocking down dry cornbread. Raw meat has a high water content.


So I gave just a leg and some meat this morning. Should I back off the bone for the rest of today and just feed meat? Then maybe ill poop better tomorrow?


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## gwalk (May 31, 2017)

naturalfeddogs said:


> Sometimes mine poop every other day, but yes less poop is normal. However if straining to poop like constipated, then that's from too much bone.
> 
> On raw, they drink less water. Perfectly normal. They are getting lots of moisture out of raw, where kibble is like chocking down dry cornbread. Raw meat has a high water content.


So I gave just a leg and some meat this morning. Should I back off the bone for the rest of today and just feed meat? Then maybe they will poop better tomorrow?


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## gwalk (May 31, 2017)

So I gave them just the leg and extra meat this morning because I felt like Max was eating too much at one time. Really leary of feeding him too much at one time. I would rather feed 2-3 times a day just because I know it is better for him to eat smaller and more times a day since he is prone to bloat.


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## OldGnarlHead (Feb 17, 2016)

Yeah not pooping a whole lot is fine. Sometimes mine will go two days before pooping but everything seems normal when she does. Be careful of swinging between bone-heavy and boneless, though, it can cause digestive upset.


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## OtherGuy (Nov 30, 2016)

gwalk said:


> So I have fed on raw for 2 days now to both dogs. My female has not pooped. Is that normal? Max has but not a whole lot. I do know that their poops are normally some what smaller when feeding raw, but not pooping in a couple of days? She did throw up a little yellow junk first thing this morning and from what I understand that can happen. I was just a little worried about her not pooping yet. And neither one of them are drinking very little water, but they seem to feel alright.


No, it is not "normal." 

Not casue for great alarm, but clear evidence that the dog is constipated from too much bone.

Feeding too much bone is the biggest problem many people have starting out IMO, and it is directly tied to much of the advise in various "quick start" guides that in my estimation are wrong-headed. 

Dogs should eliminate daily.

My advice is not to do "boneless" as things could go the other way, but to get closer to 10% bone.

Bill


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## gwalk (May 31, 2017)

Ok so when I feed say a chicken leg with enough meat to equal the 15.7 oz. that I got from the 61lbs in weight x the 0.25 am I doing it right to be 80% meat 10% bone? And if I feed like I did the first time a whole leg quarter with the thigh and leg is that considered 80% meat and 10% bone? I am having the hardest time with that. Sorry but need to understand that part better I think. Also, on that total for the weight 15.7 is that for each feeding? Or is that 15.7 just once a day on that total? Just want to be sure of that if someone could help me to understand. Thanks so much to ALL of you for your replies! I know it is so easy for you guys that have been doing this for a while, but it is still a bit confusing to me.


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## naturalfeddogs (Jan 6, 2011)

Don't stress and get frustrated on all the mathematics. If you feel like your dog may be constipated(a couple days is a while with no poop), just up the meat. Or maybe feed a cut with less bone and add some more meat. Getting it right is a balancing act, and tends to be according to each individual. Once you get it, you know your dog and works for him. It's good to stay pretty close to the 10% bone, but, also remember it's a man made guideline. A place to start.


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## OldGnarlHead (Feb 17, 2016)

I definitely want to mention that your dog's pooping habits WILL change. You will find your dogs new normal. Mine used to poop twice a day, and now she is an every day to every other day pooper. My friend's dog who is also raw fed poops every other day. The dog who we are dog sitting, not raw fed, poops twice a day at least. Don't freak out until you find the new normal. I'd greatly advise against going from bone heavy to boneless. It caused biiig upset in our dog, in the form of diarrhea everywhere.


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## gwalk (May 31, 2017)

I really needed to do something this evening for Abby since she had not pooped in two days and was showing signs of discomfort. I was told by a friend to give her some sardines in oil to help soften up her stool. I gave her some and in 6 minutes she was out having a good poop, so it worked! She is feeling much better now. Not sure if I should give her the bone in with the chicken thigh tonight with extra meat though.


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## OtherGuy (Nov 30, 2016)

Chicken thighs have about 30% bone (3x PMR ratios) so you'd need enough meat to approximately be twice the amount of the thighs.

Sorry to say but too many people feed too much bone due to what I consider faulty information and their dogs suffer needless constipation and/or explosive diarrhea as a direct result.

Chicken quarters (or legs or drumsticks) alone have too much bone. Do your dog a favor and change the balance.

And it it not just about "the poops," dogs have a critical need to maintain a proper mineral balance of calcium an phosphorus. Feeding 10% bone hits the target. Feeding 30% will lead to a nutritional imbalance with excessive calcium.

Bill


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## gwalk (May 31, 2017)

Thanks to ALL of you for replying! I am learning a lot and it has been so helpful. Really appreciate it!


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