# P & G & EVO update



## Breathing Borla (Apr 30, 2010)

Hello all,

just thought I'd post an update about this with some info I found. I noticed that the last bag I bought they changed the label logo on the front that said made from USA ingredients. i have been working through a problem with Roxy throwing up once every week or week and 1/2. I have had her to the vet and all blood test and a urine tests showed normal with the exception of a slightly raised single white blood cell which the vet said is due to allergies (she has season allergies every july and august). 

So my antenna were up over maybe a food issue causing this. there has also been much more stress in her life since we just had our first baby. I am working through some things also, took away buffalo rawhides (she just started those) but she still barfed once this week after I stopped those, so that wasn't it.

The vet said it would be ok to give her pepcid and remain on the EVO to see if that helps as he said we won't hurt her by staying on this food for now since he's comfortable with her overall health (no weight loss, ect).

anyway, back to the EVO. I fired off an email to Natura asking them why they changed the label and what's going on. 

They sent this back

Thank you for contacting Natura Pet Products. We have updated the EVO packaging to better illustrate the benefits and nutritional philosophy of our products. Our dry foods are still made in our own facility in Fremont, NE where I am also located. We also employ very strict quality control measures from raw ingredients to finished product.

Natura’s goal remains to domestically source all ingredients. For many ingredients Natura does. 

Unfortunately, after an exhaustive search, some ingredients simply cannot be sourced from within the U.S. as they just are not available. For example, our venison is currently sourced from New Zealand. Many food safety precautions are in place due to concerns raised by the use of foreign ingredients. 

Natura’s venison supplier is a global company that is committed to food safety and actually performs physical audits at the New Zealand manufacturer(s). Please visit our website at Natura - See Beyond the Bag for the origin for every ingredient in all of our formulas.

We do not get any of our ingredients from China for any of our products.

If you have any other questions or concerns, please contact us at your convenience.

Sincerely,

April
Licensed Veterinary Technician
Natura Product Advisor



They have a cool site up where yo can see where everything comes from

Where Do Our Ingredients Come From? - See Beyond the Bag



If this keeps up the vet wants me to try Iams vet formula

Iams® Veterinary Formula

not sold on that just yet.....


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## Savage Destiny (Mar 16, 2011)

New Zealand is actually the preferred source for venison, as it tends to be free-range and is not plagued by the disease (I cannot remember what it's called) that runs rampant in deer in the U.S.

There are also new laws in place that don't allow a company to label their product as "Made in USA" if something like 98% of the ingredients don't come from the U.S. Even if it is produced in the U.S. So I think we'll be seeing a lot of packaging changes!


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## Tobi (Mar 18, 2011)

Savage Destiny said:


> New Zealand is actually the preferred source for venison, as it tends to be free-range and is not plagued by the disease (I cannot remember what it's called) that runs rampant in deer in the U.S.
> 
> There are also new laws in place that don't allow a company to label their product as "Made in USA" if something like 98% of the ingredients don't come from the U.S. Even if it is produced in the U.S. So I think we'll be seeing a lot of packaging changes!


Chronic Wasting Disease


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## Kat (Jul 12, 2011)

New Zealand is a good source for venison and lamb I think. I buy frozen lamb legs that are grass fed from NZ and you can even see the difference in the meat. NZ lamb is alot richer in colour. I bought a lamb leg from a local butcher and the meat doesnt look as rich coloured as the NZ one. 

I dont know if this is true, this is just what I heard from a friend who works at a pet store - now that p&g bought out evo, apparently they are going to be sourcing out lower grade meats slowly to save on costs. 

And, if your dog is throwing up once a week from the food... maybe something has changed? If I still fed kibble and my dog was barfing on it, I would look for another brand to feed IMHO


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## Breathing Borla (Apr 30, 2010)

Kat said:


> And, if your dog is throwing up once a week from the food... maybe something has changed? If I still fed kibble and my dog was barfing on it, I would look for another brand to feed IMHO


that's the point, I don't know if it's from the food. that's why I am investigating and trying to eliminate variables. she has done really well in EVO for a long time so I am trying to figure out what is going on. Food is only one varible. 

i also no nothing about that IAMs the vet is wanting me to try


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## Kat (Jul 12, 2011)

Breathing Borla said:


> that's the point, I don't know if it's from the food. that's why I am investigating and trying to eliminate variables. she has done really well in EVO for a long time so I am trying to figure out what is going on. Food is only one varible.
> 
> i also no nothing about that IAMs the vet is wanting me to try


Vet foods are a lie, they hide symptoms for a while, and then they come back even worse. After I took my cats off vet food they got better and stayed better.


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## Breathing Borla (Apr 30, 2010)

Kat said:


> Vet foods are a lie, they hide symptoms for a while, and then they come back even worse. After I took my cats off vet food they got better and stayed better.


What do you mean they "hide symptoms"?

I don't know too much about it but the ingredients in that stuff (Iams vet) don't look all that great.


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## Makovach (Jan 24, 2012)

Breathing Borla said:


> What do you mean they "hide symptoms"?
> 
> I don't know too much about it but the ingredients in that stuff (Iams vet) don't look all that great.


By hiding symptoms, It usually means that it will mask the problem, but the problem is still there. And with the lower quality in vet food, it may awaken an even bigger array of problems. The best way to deal with the problem is get rid of it, not cover it up and hope it goes away.

Have you thought of doing a limited ingredient food such as California naturals? It does have grain, but almost any kibble food that is limited ingredient does. If you wanted limited ingredient with out grain, you best bet would be EVO or Wellness 95% meats canned foods or a raw diet. I've never tried the 95% meat canned foods, but I know a lot of kibble feeders that like it. Nalah used to throw up a lot (she had pancreatic problems) and the only thing that worked was process of elimination. With her, she ended up only being able to tolerate a PMR diet. To this day, fruits, veggies, grains and pretty well anything that isn't meat/bone/organ will cause her to get ill.


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## Kat (Jul 12, 2011)

Breathing Borla said:


> What do you mean they "hide symptoms"?
> 
> I don't know too much about it but the ingredients in that stuff (Iams vet) don't look all that great.


Pretty much what Makovach said. This is my personal experience - my two cats had struvite crystals and uti's. I put them on a vet food and they would be fine for a few months, then out of no where they would have infections again. My male cat had to be hospitalized for a blockage.

Since taking them off canned vet food and switching to high quality canned, my cats havent been sick in 3 years, while on the vet food I was going in every 4 months. 

And depending where you live, vet prescription diets can be pretty expensive, why not buy something thats better quality, you know?

If you want limited ingredients, you could look into trying Nature's Variety, they have 2 limited ingredient kibbles. Before I would have suggested Natural Balance, but not anymore since the recall -.- 

Or you could also look into Acana if you have access to that food there you live - they also have 2 single protein kibbles. One is lamb and the other is duck


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## Shamrockmommy (Sep 10, 2009)

I have switched away from Natura foods entirely. I've never had good luck with them, even though they (used to) come highly recommended by so many!

Even before the buy-out, there has always been some issue or another with their foods. 
Innova and California Natural causes super hard stool for most of my dogs, and they wind up with colitis. (Just went through this after attempting to feed Cal. Nat Grain free chicken to my girls. Poor Darby  )

Evo causes cannon butt and impacted anal glands no matter how much adusting (less food, add pumpkin, etc) I do with it.

My cat OTOH does well on Innova Prime, Evo and Cal. Nat. Grain free, interestingly.

I've switched off to rotate around with Fromm and Acana and things are doing very well.


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## Kibblelady (Jul 13, 2012)

Vet foods hide problems? really... No, they don't that just flies in the face of common sense. Evo will now be outsourcing for cheaper ingredients because Natura was purchased by P&G? No, that's a common myth that is *always* spread around whenever a pet food company is purchased by a bigger company, there has never been any truth in that. The first time that rumor was seen was when Iams was purchased by P&G because almost immediately after the purchase the corn was removed from the regular Iams diets and was replaced by sorghum. Truth is Iams had been researching food's glycemic indexes and had completed their study and found that grains with a lower index were better for dogs and also did not encourage diabetes..... this change had nothing to do with P&G. Most of the time when a pet food company is purchased by a large company they are still left to their own devices and are simply just owned by a larger company....yet we will always see this myth that the food quality will go down for profit and any change to the formulation (which better foods will *always* do over time) it is something shady. Me? I always ask "why?" It is the best question in the world and I will not make any assumption till I know the answer to that question.

I do know one thing, all these new companies with these new "impressive" foods love these rumors and myths.... but, when you look at it you can never tell is any of them are lying... unless you are there in the production facility you never will be able to tell. The myths and rumors and *propaganda* are what causes all the paranoia and is causing people to dig deep into their pockets to purchase foods with pea fiber and marigold whatever in them. I have been "in this" since all of this basically started hmm back in around 1997? or earlier, and have watched it continue and progress. It has gone exactly as I thought it would and continues to. I admit it ticks me off. I lost a dog to this nonsense, that broke my heart. What made it worse was realizing I had been manipulated and in my quest to "do something better" I killed my dog. This is why i always have something to say, why I want to dispel rumors and stop the manipulation of people through the love for their pet, in honor of Max.... I do use a "holistic" pet food, it is not cheap but I use it for reasons other than those things. Maybe a new thread on simply pet food is in order.


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## MollyWoppy (Mar 19, 2010)

Thats exactly why I will never, ever feed my dog or my cat any food made by companies involved in the 2007 melamine recall that killed and sickened thousands of pets. No way. And, it was made even worse by certain big companies trying to cover up, refusing to issue recalls until they were forced to. I'm not going to include references or anything because this is my opinion based on a lot of scrutiny trying to understand how this could ever happen, plus the fact I really don't care what anyone else thinks. 
I feed certain foods made in the USA/Canada/New Zealand with ingredients sourced from a few select countries that I trust. 
My dog was a pup in 2007 and was fed a food that was on the recall list. It is only through the luck of the blind that she was not one of the casualties.


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## Kat (Jul 12, 2011)

Everyone is entitled to their own opinions kibblelady, but that was my personal experience with vet prescription diets. My cats would be fine for a bit then not again. My female cat had terrible dandruff and didn't look her best on vet food. My cats have been in perfect health since switching off of the vet food. And when I decided to switch the vet I took them to at the time told me it was a bad idea because the crystals would come back. My cats are looking amazing on Acana, and the variety of canned food... super soft and shiny fur, no dandruff, smaller stools, etc.

I'm sorry for the loss of your dog Max. My friend had a dog who was also affected by the melamine recall, and lived out her life with severe renal failure.


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## DaViking (Sep 27, 2011)

Kat said:


> told me it was a bad idea because the crystals would come back.


If they come back it is most likely because there was an infection creating a perfect environment for crystals to form. No food is going to resolve that issue.


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## Kat (Jul 12, 2011)

DaViking said:


> Most likely because it was an infection creating a perfect environment for crystals to form. No food is going to resolve that issue.


Since having them off the vet food for the pat 3 years thy have been fine. No more infections or crystals. With the vet diet it kept coming back, and worse at times.


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## MollyWoppy (Mar 19, 2010)

Crystals don't form because of an infection. Wish it were that easy.


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## DaViking (Sep 27, 2011)

MollyWoppy said:


> Crystals don't form because of an infection. Wish it were that easy.


Why don't you elaborate then?

I am no cat expert but from what I can read it seems that causes of crystal formation in cats is more varied and complex than for dogs. However, as with dogs, if an infection is present it makes for a perfect environment for crystals to form. It will be recurring until the infection is dealt with. A change in food alone will not deal with an infection.

Cats

"The crystals that form in the bladder and urethra are caused by many factors, many of which are poorly understood. They include diet, *urinary tract infections*, and others we are not aware of. Fortunately, the dietary factors and *infections* can be controlled and even prevented."

Feline Urinary Tract Disease

Dogs

"It misunderstands how struvites develop and how urinary tract infections almost always accompany them. It isn’t that struvites cause the urinary tract infection, but rather that a urinary tract infection causes struvites to develop. When bacteria form in the urine, it causes alkaline urine (high pH value). This is an ideal environment for struvites to grow. Struvites thrive in an alkaline situation. Trying to reduce the pH of the urine produces no results as long as a urinary tract infection is present. The solution is to get rid of the urinary tract infection."

Easy To Spot: Struvites Crystals, Urinary Tract Infections, Treatment and Diet

I am no vet so if any vet reading this care to chime in I am all ears. New knowledge develops every day so my knowledge and these links might be outdated for all I know. But until I then I'll stick with what I've picked up over the years.


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## Kat (Jul 12, 2011)

Yes, crystals can form because of an infection, but they could also form from food. If a cat is only on an all kibble diet, their chances of getting crystals are higher because they are more dehydrated vs. cats fed a mostly canned food diet - since the kibble fed cats don't have as much water in their system, their urine stays in their bladder longer, concentrating, and can cause crystal formation. Cats dont have a high drink drive, so its best to feed a high moisture diet. Foods high in calcium and phosphorus can also contribute to crystals, as well as fish based foods. PH also plays a role in the health of the bladder, if the urine is too alkaline, struvite crystals can form. 

Sometimes an infection happens after the development of crystals, it doesn't always have to be infection then crystals. I've done tons of research and talked to 5 different vets because of my cats. I have spent a lot of time researching what food is safe and which one isn't. And all I can say is what I have been doing is working for them.

ETA : a few times my female cat would have crystal formation without the presence of an infection. And I would just have to worry about dissolving the crystals and not putting her on anti biotics.


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## Kibblelady (Jul 13, 2012)

Kat said:


> Everyone is entitled to their own opinions kibblelady, but that was my personal experience with vet prescription diets. My cats would be fine for a bit then not again. My female cat had terrible dandruff and didn't look her best on vet food. My cats have been in perfect health since switching off of the vet food. And when I decided to switch the vet I took them to at the time told me it was a bad idea because the crystals would come back. My cats are looking amazing on Acana, and the variety of canned food... super soft and shiny fur, no dandruff, smaller stools, etc.
> 
> I'm sorry for the loss of your dog Max. My friend had a dog who was also affected by the melamine recall, and lived out her life with severe renal failure.


I appreciate the situation with your cat and am very glad that he is doing better. I just would not blame the vet..it is complicated and I will leave it at that.

My Max did not die as a result of Melamine poisoning  He passed back in like 2000. It was the result of an unknown problem with Wellness when it first came out. Thank you for your condolences though, it is appreciated.


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## LilasMom (Mar 10, 2012)

I just wanted to add to what Kat said:

Cats an all kibble diets get more crystals because they will always be a bit dehydrated. Cats came from the desert and have a very low thirst drive and will not drink all the fluids they need on their own. They need wet food like canned or raw to give them their fluids. They will drink water from a bowl, but it won't be enough. For many cats with crystals, dilution of the body fluids is key, and kibble not only does not provide that dilution, it makes it worse because dry food NEEDS water to turn it into poop so it takes that moisture away from the body. I would say an all canned or raw diet is the best diet for a cat. 

Sorry to be off topic I just love cats lol


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## Kibblelady (Jul 13, 2012)

LilasMom said:


> I just wanted to add to what Kat said:
> 
> Cats an all kibble diets get more crystals because they will always be a bit dehydrated. Cats came from the desert and have a very low thirst drive and will not drink all the fluids they need on their own. They need wet food like canned or raw to give them their fluids. They will drink water from a bowl, but it won't be enough. For many cats with crystals, dilution of the body fluids is key, and kibble not only does not provide that dilution, it makes it worse because dry food NEEDS water to turn it into poop so it takes that moisture away from the body. I would say an all canned or raw diet is the best diet for a cat.
> 
> Sorry to be off topic I just love cats lol


Very good information, thank you  I myself do not know very much about cats even though I have a few.


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## LilasMom (Mar 10, 2012)

Your welcome


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