# Vet Said Puppy's Bones are Weak from All Meat Diet



## akatrk (Oct 18, 2009)

I've been reading this forum for a while and do enjoy the comments and advise given by the members. So I have a question and need advise.

Today, I took my 11 week old Boerboel to the vet. He asked what I was feeding her and I told her I switched from Wellness Core to chicken backs. He said she was under weight (14.5 lbs) and that her bones were weak. He said I should start to feed her some rice and not a full raw diet. He said just feeding her chicken was the reason why her bones were so weak. I'm waiting for her to have another bowel movement so I can take a stool sample in to him. She has a health appetite and her stool is small (no runs).

I know that a puppy should be fed 10 percent of their weight until they reach 2 to 3 percent of their ideal weight. Should I begin to just feed her the 2 to 3 percent of her ideal weight now? Should I continue to feed her the 10 percent ratio of her present weight? Should I add the rice to her diet? Would giving her vitamin C help the weak bones?


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## AveryandAudrey (Sep 20, 2010)

How long has your puppy been on the raw diet? Pehaps she needs other meats. With the raw diet, variety is important. You can feed beef, pork, turkey, eggs, plain yogurt, cottage cheese, tinned sardines in water and mackeral. If you are able to get lamb, venison, rabbit, your pup can have that as well. Is you puppy soley eating chicken?


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## luvMyBRT (Mar 8, 2010)

I may be wrong, but this sounds like a whole bunch of bull ****** to me! 

How does the vet know that your pup has "weak bones"? A raw fed large breed puppy will be thin. I know that Duncan is/was. When I first switched him he was really thin. In all actuality you WANT a large breed pup to be on the light side. A over weight pup is not good, especially a large breed one.

I would continue with what you are doing! How long have you been feeding backs? How much are you feeding a day? 

Depending on how long your pup has been eating raw it may be time to add in some chicken quarters...and then down the road a bit some other proteins. If stools are looking good and the pup is on the thin side it may be time to up what you are feeding a *bit* and see how she does.

I wonder if it may be time to look for a vet that is more pro raw? Just a thought. :smile:

I would NOT add rice to your carnivores diet. :smile:


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## RawFedDogs (Jun 16, 2008)

I, too, wonder how he knows the bones are weak. I think he's full of it. If they are weak, its not because of diet and the cause should be found. I have very serious doubts that there is any weakness in the pup's bones.

If you have been feeding chicken backs for more than a week, its time to add some other meatier chicken parts to the diet. A week later, add some pork and continue adding different protein sources for several weeks. For better explanation, check out my web page linked in my sig.

You judge how much to feed based on the pups build. If he's too fat, feed less and vice versa. Do NOT add rice to her diet. Did you ever see a wolf or dog grazing in a rice patty? Of course not. Rice would add nothing to the diet. No, dog's don't need vitamin C in their diet. They create it internally in their liver. They creat whatever amount they need. If there is too much vitamin C in their blood stream, they simply pee it out. So adding Vit C to the diet does nothing more than create expensive pee.


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## akatrk (Oct 18, 2009)

I tried raw (chicken wings) in the beginning and she had very loose stool. When I went to the pet store for some toys, the guy said that I shouldn't feed her a raw diet. He told me about Wellness Core and gave me a supplement for the loose stool. I gave it to her and I think it was too rich for her stomach because she had more loose stool. I went back to raw and fed her chicken necks. I just bought a case of chicken backs after reading about the meat to bone ratio. She has been on chicken backs for about a week now (firm stool and small). 

I'm feeding her a pound right now but was looking to go up in what I'm giving her. I didn't try another protein source yet. My brother is feeding his Cane Corso the bone saw meal from the butcher and his dogs are HUGE but I thought this may be a mistake. A large breed dog with that much weight I thought was too much for their bones to bare at so early an age (5 months and 3 months old).

I think I will try the sardines and see how she does with them. Should I give her cottage cheese or yogurt every day?

Oh, and thanks RFD for the link. Looked at it and decided to revisit it again as you advised.


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## spookychick13 (Jan 26, 2010)

Totally full of it.
If he thinks the bones are week, he would have run a calcium test to verify.

Methinks someone doesn't like raw.

However you should add some variety and work up to organ meat, etc.


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## luvMyBRT (Mar 8, 2010)

akatrk said:


> I tried raw (chicken wings) in the beginning and she had very loose stool. When I went to the pet store for some toys, the guy said that I shouldn't feed her a raw diet. He told me about Wellness Core and gave me a supplement for the loose stool. I gave it to her and I think it was too rich for her stomach because she had more loose stool. I went back to raw and fed her chicken necks. I just bought a case of chicken backs after reading about the meat to bone ratio. She has been on chicken backs for about a week now (firm stool and small).
> 
> I'm feeding her a pound right now but was looking to go up in what I'm giving her. I didn't try another protein source yet. My brother is feeding his Cane Corso the bone saw meal from the butcher and his dogs are HUGE but I thought this may be a mistake. A large breed dog with that much weight I thought was too much for their bones to bare at so early an age (5 months and 3 months old).
> 
> ...


Yes. Do read the link that RFD has...and then read it again. I refer to it and this one: How to get started | Prey Model Raw (done by Jon and Natalie) ALL the time!

I would follow them closely. Next I would add in quarters alternating with backs. Keep an eye on her stool to make sure it stays firm.

NO, no need to add in cottage cheese or yogurt or anything else for that matter. Meat, bone, and organs are all your pup needs. :smile:

BTW, what is bone saw meal?


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## akatrk (Oct 18, 2009)

it's the scraps leftover from the saw when the butcher cuts the meats (pork, beef, chicken, lamb, etc). At the end of the day, they clean out all of the leftover parts and throw it out.


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## DaneMama (Jun 27, 2008)

I've noticed the complete opposite of weak bones and underweight puppies when feeding raw. The vet you go to just doesn't know anything about raw and is scared of it...that's all. I wouldn't mess around with feeding anything but a raw meaty bones diet, since it all gets unnecessarily complicated past that.

Since she is doing well on chicken backs now, I would slowly increase her daily ration up to 10% of her current weight now. You said that she weighs nearly 15 pounds so that should be about 1.5 pounds per day. I would slowly work up to feeding this much, like give a 1.25 pounds per day for a few days then work it up to 1.5. You will be constantly adding more meat in on a weekly basis for a few months while feeding 10% of her weight. Since boerboels tend to get ~110-120 you will feed 10% of her weight for about 3 months or so. My Dane puppy is projected to get to about 120 and at 3.5 months I am just now switching to 2-3% per day. 

Keep up the good work and stick with it!


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## JayJayisme (Aug 2, 2009)

Wait, let me understand this. Your dog has been on chicken backs successfully for all of one week and your vet wants to blame the diet for "weak bones"? After a week?

Time to find a new vet.


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

if your dog had weak bones, he'd be falling and wobbling like a weeble.

and saw bone dust? tell your brother yuck.....

you don't need yoghurt, cottage cheese or dairy or vitamin c.
you might want to give salmon oil gel caps a few months down the line.

he has to learn how to eat raw....he has to get his mouth to work right, his teeth, his jaw, his neck muscles....he has to learn.

feed chicken backs, then give chicken quarters...if his bowels are loose, take the skin and excess fat and definitely the organs in the backs...off...until his stool stabilises..

then give turkey necks and chicken
then give chicken backs and turkey meat
then give chicken backs and pork
then give pork ribs and chicken
then give chicken backs and fish
then give chicken backs and beef
then give chicken backs and heart
then give chicken backs and start with thumbnail sized pieces of chicken liver
then intro beef liver with backs ( by now, you'll be into raw for months...)

go slowly and add in one protein at a time, so you know if there are going to be problems, you'll know exactly what the problem is.

your dog, if he were hypocalcemic would be displaying all kinds of symptoms...if he's running and jumping and playing like a normal eleven week not too coordinated puppy, then you need a new vet.


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## eternalstudent (Jul 22, 2010)

I think everyone else has beaten me to the punch. Anyone saying that says a way to sort out weak bones is to feed sugar and vit C, needs to go back to school and study nutrition. 

He may disagree with raw, but frankly he should admit it and move on. 

I would stick with the advice given above and enjoy your healthier dog!!


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## rannmiller (Jun 27, 2008)

While I agree, with everyone else, I think natalie brought up the best point, it sounds like this puppy does need to be fed a little more food. Boerbels are large dogs for sure, (though nearly 15 lbs at 11 weeks doesn't sound too bad to me) so that does mean that she should be fed 1.5 lbs of food a day, and gradually work her up to it, just like Nat said. Monitor her stools to see how she does with it, and also monitor her body condition. 

How does she look right now? Can you see all of her ribs and hip bones clearly? Or can you just see a little tuck where her tummy is and the last two ribs before it?


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## akatrk (Oct 18, 2009)

Wow! Thank you everyone for your advise and support. Since I've started raw with Bailey (that's my baby) she has had a LOT more energy, whew. I am going to continue with the chicken backs and work some livers in today. I will try the the quarters by the end of the week to see how it goes.

I did see her ribs when I started out. I know it was because I went from raw to kibble and back to raw and not giving her enough. This morning I am starting to see some improvement and see she's gained some weight.

I go back to the vet in three weeks. I'll see what happens after giving in the stool sample and see what he says then. if he says that her bones are still weak, I will see another vet for another opinion and possibly my main vet for her.


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

i will need this info the next time we get a puppy...hopefully, a long time from now....

but does the guideline about liver apply to pups as it does to adult newly transitioned dogs?


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## DaneMama (Jun 27, 2008)

I wouldn't add in liver just yet. Wait at least a few weeks because they are very rich and since she is doing so well now you don't want to move too quickly. Definitely give the quarters a try first and see how that goes.


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## RawFedDogs (Jun 16, 2008)

akatrk said:


> I am going to continue with the chicken backs and work some livers in today. I will try the the quarters by the end of the week to see how it goes.


As Natalie said, no liver yet. It's way too early and you are asking for digestive problems if you begin liver too soon. Try the quarters now and put the liver in the freezer to feed later. I usually recommend not feeding any organs until 2 months on raw and then begin with tiny pieces.


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## k9capture_16 (Aug 23, 2010)

I learned the hard way with organs. I added the, only a few weeks in and he just started adjusting to them a few months in. So wait on the organs and go with the Chicken Quarters now. Your vet is also full of bull when he tells you his bones are weak. Sounds like he is trying to make you feel guilty and hoping you will switch. My vet told me lots of things when I started raw and I ignored them.


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## akatrk (Oct 18, 2009)

Thanks everyone. Didn't know giving her the livers would be too soon. I will freeze them as suggested. Will start the quarters this weekend and see how it goes.


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## akatrk (Oct 18, 2009)

Well, it has been three weeks from today since I was told by the vet that Bailey had weak bones. I went back to the vet today and boy was it a different song he was singing today.

When I first took her to the vet, she was 15 pounds. When the vet saw her today he said "wow, she nearly doubled her weight since the last visit." My Bailey is 14 weeks old, 27.6 pounds, and is a soilid little puppy. He never asked if I was still feeding a RPM diet so I asked about her "weak bones." He replied, oh, she's coming along but not once did he have the same concern or examined her like he did the last time concerning her so called weak bones. He was pleased as well as I was about her weight and her health.

Just wanted to say thanks to all on this forum for your advise and support. Any other advise is more than welcomed.


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## cprcheetah (Jul 14, 2010)

Awesome! Glad to hear she is doing so well. So many Vets find any and all excuses possible to blame your dogs problems on raw. I've been very fortunate to have a Vet (also my dad) who is VERY open minded, even when Zoey got a bacterial imbalance from eating rotten carrots (she found in my kitchen somewhere) not once did he blame it on her diet..except her little dietary indiscretions--> the carrots lol.


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## Unosmom (May 3, 2009)

Just to add, Wellness Core is not appropriate for puppies, especially large breed pups due to cal/phos levels.


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## DaneMama (Jun 27, 2008)

Glad to hear that the vet had nothing else misleading to say! I'm curious as to what their reaction would have been if they DID ask if you kept up with raw...

The best way for us to give advice is for you to ask questions! Don't hesitate to ask any and all of the questions that come to mind. Keep up the good work :wink:


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## EnglishBullTerriers (Sep 10, 2008)

I have some advise: don't bring up the PMR diet unles you ABSOLUTELY have to! 
I walked in to my vets office for the first time and told them that if they have a problem with what I feed my dogs, they can take it up with my dogs at meal time! =D
A good part of why I am sticking with this vet is because they are all ok with it and are willing to learn about it and other alternatives to what they learned all those years in school. We have a mutual respect for each others ways of doing things. They are willing to work with the way I feed and care for my dogs and I respect that they were the ones who went to school to know all of this stuff. We usually sit down and talk about the different ways to handle each situation.... Except when it comes to Titus. At that Dr Tally walked on and said 'this is what I am going to do and this is why!' at that we left with a bottle of Prozac and he has been calming down better ever since! 
If your vet wants to hassel you about your choice of food, find a new vet. Otherwise, I wouldn't even bring it up. =}


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