# Need some suggestions



## Pimzilla (May 1, 2011)

I previously posted a thread asking for help to convince my mum to start feeding her 11 year old Shetland Sheepdog raw. This dog has now had diarrhoea more or less constantly for 1,5 years and on and off for another 1,5 years. The vet can't find anything except that she had a vitamin B12 deficiency (most likely caused by the diarrhoea) that she has been treated for. She is now on cortisone and my mum has "emergency antibiotics" at home she starts giving her every time the dog gets too poorly for too long. 

My mum finally made the big decision to feed her raw. She started out 3 days with chicken backs and the poop was all fine. We were both a bit surprised how well it worked. She is buying whole chickens from the supermarket and obviously ran out of chicken backs so she gave her a wing without skin and the dog got diarrhoea again. Next meal she fed her a leg and the dog puked it up within 10 minutes (she doesn't eat her own puke so she did not get any more food that evening). Could this be because it's too much bone for her stomach to handle?
Next day she was even worse with some blood and bones in her diarrhoea which was all over the place when my mum came home from work. She is now gutted and start questioning if she is doing the right thing for her little dog.

I suggested that she tries to chop the bones up to start with if that is the problem, is that a good idea? (She won't be able to buy only chicken backs anywhere)
Other suggestions of how to overcome this? Any suggestions at all are welcome, I really don't want her to give it up and go back to kibble which will be the case if it doesn't improve within a couple of days :sad:


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## Chocx2 (Nov 16, 2009)

Have you tried some probotic? My aussie can't eat a lot of bone or skin so I give him the breast meat with the little bit of bone in that and he does pretty good and he does well when I give him beef heart. He also can eat the chicken necks with fat and skin off. I just try different things until his poo gets good. I found that some dogs are harder to find what they do good on.


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## RawFedDogs (Jun 16, 2008)

Normally, that is caused by too large of meals but that doesn't seem to be the problem if she fed her one chicken wing one time and one drumstick another. I would try removing skin and excess fat for a week or so. That will probably fix her right up.


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## Pimzilla (May 1, 2011)

Her dog has just been on raw a few days so changing to any other meat to experiment is not an option right now, I'm trying to convince her it's the best thing to do for her dog, but the results she is getting now is quite demoralizing.
There has been no fat or skin on the chicken she has fed her at all. I've adviced her to only give meat and bone, nothing else. That's why I'm wondering if the leg bones or wing bones could be too much for her stomach to handle right now? And also if it is a good idea for my mum to chop them up into smaller pieces for a while to get her used to processing it?

Ohw, and I don't think she has given her any probiotics now, just in the past without any results.


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## RawFedDogs (Jun 16, 2008)

Are her symptoms the same now as they have been for the last year and a half? What is she giving her besides meat and bones? Cutting up bones will not make any difference. You do not want to do that. Is the dog on any medication?


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## whiteleo (Sep 7, 2008)

If she is buying whole chickens then she does indeed have access to chicken backs, if she did fine on the original 3 days of nothing but chicken backs then she can process the bone but is having issues of processing the meat.
I would have her get as many chickens as possible and just cut out the backs and feed those and of course save up the other parts, take off all skin and fat for several days then slowly add in a thumbnail size piece of meat if she has had good poo again with just the backs.


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## Ania's Mommy (Feb 8, 2009)

Is she feeding ANYTHING else besides raw chicken? Any treats, supplements, or (like RFD said) medication? Is there anything else going into this dog's body besides the raw chicken?


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## Pimzilla (May 1, 2011)

She's usually not having this bad diarrhoea so right now it is worse than normal. She is eating cortisone and has been on it for a while (1-2 months now I think) and it usually keeps her poops fairly normal. She tried to stop the cortisone but it immediately got worse again so she is now on it to continue for a while longer. She is usually not bad enough to do anything inside and yesterday she managed to do it twice while my mum was at work. 
She is not eating anything else than chicken meat and bones right now since I did not think it was wise to mess about with anything else trying to introduce raw to this dog.

I'll try convince her that it's a good idea to stock up on chicken and fill her freezer with the other parts left over after feeding the backs for now. 

Thanks :thumb:


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## Ania's Mommy (Feb 8, 2009)

Someone else will need to chime in, but I'm pretty sure it's a bad idea to quit cortisone cold turkey. So it's good that your mom has gone back to giving it. I'd check with a vet before stopping treatment.

I'd just stick with the bony chicken for now, like you're doing, minus any fat, skin, and organs. How much are you feeding her, by the way?


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## DaneMama (Jun 27, 2008)

Its a really bad thing to quit cortisone cold turkey. When did she stop the cortisone? And when did this bad case of diarrhea start? It could be related to the fact that your mom stopped a medication abruptly that shouldn't have been. 

How much does this dog weigh? How much is it getting to eat daily?


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## Liz (Sep 27, 2010)

Every shelite I have hadd is very sensitive. She is also an older girl with a history of tummy problems. Could you maybe talk to a butcher about getting some backs? My young sheltie takes about twice as long to get used to a new protein as my collies. My mom's sheltie is the same way. When we started our's they got chicken backs and frames for about two weeks then we started alternating a leg or thigh then a back or frame. Many butchers will give you backs cheap as they throw them away for the most part. Go super slow with her and expect some backsliding. Hope your mom sticks with it and works through the beginning problems. It will pay off in the long run.


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## Pimzilla (May 1, 2011)

She didn't stop the cortinosne abruptly, it was on recommendation from the vet and she gradually decreased the doze. But this was probably 3-4 weeks ago so it's not related to her current problems.
Her girl weighs 9 kg at the moment, she managed to put almost 2 kgs on since she was really bad before the cortisone. I'm not sure how much she has been feeding her but I think she has got 1/2-1/3 chicken back in the beginning, then one meal a wing and last was the leg that came up again. After that I think she gave her a tiny piece of breast, like thumbnail sized cause she was so sad when the cat got fed lol
I don't live in the same country as my mum so I'm unable to help he with any practical stuff regarding feeding her dog. I appreciate all ideas about going to the butchers and so on but I know my mum and it just won't happen since she got no car or driving license.


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## DaneMama (Jun 27, 2008)

Pimzilla said:


> She didn't stop the cortinosne abruptly, it was on recommendation from the vet and she gradually decreased the doze. But this was probably 3-4 weeks ago so it's not related to her current problems.


Good. So she is back on cortisone again?



> Her girl weighs 9 kg at the moment, she managed to put almost 2 kgs on since she was really bad before the cortisone. I'm not sure how much she has been feeding her but I think she has got 1/2-1/3 chicken back in the beginning, then one meal a wing and last was the leg that came up again. After that I think she gave her a tiny piece of breast, like thumbnail sized cause she was so sad when the cat got fed lol


Well, from the sounds of this post and previous ones, I would tell you mom to start back on square one. Fast her dog for 24 hours, which means NOTHING to eat. Then the first day should be a chicken back trimmed of all fat, skin, and organ. Just one back for that first meal. See how that goes. If all goes well, then give just one back the following day...see how it goes. Taking things really slow is always safe. 

Is there anyway for you to email her stuff from here?


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## Pimzilla (May 1, 2011)

Yea she went back on cortisone right away after the failure to come off it. Except from when she puked up that leg and probably the cortisone as well, she's been on it for a few weeks now I think.
I can e-mail her anything, I'm spamming her inbox constantly :smile:


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## DaneMama (Jun 27, 2008)

Well, thats really the best you can do....let us know what she plans on doing.


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## Pimzilla (May 1, 2011)

Will do! Thanks :smile:


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## Pimzilla (May 1, 2011)

I start to feel a bit desperate myself now as I feel time is running out and my mum will go back to kibble.

Yesterday morning she had a small chopped up chicken wing (50g), no skin. Nothing came out and my mum fed her another chopped up wing without skin and a piece of a chicken back (in total 105g). 
She managed to sleep for 6 hours before the dog needed to go out and the so called poop is brown liquid. She has taken her out every 3 hours since then with same results. She has not been this bad for a very long time and she is now doubting this will work at all. I don't know what to tell her anymore. Should I insist she keeps trying, fasting her again and then start over again?
The poor dog has lost 0,5kg already and I think that scares my mum alot since she was so happy she finally managed to put a bit on.


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## nortknee (May 5, 2011)

Yikes. 

Sorry it's not going too well.

No advice, just good thoughts that it'll start turning around, for the pup and for you and your mum.


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## Ania's Mommy (Feb 8, 2009)

Give it some time. The brown liquid that was poo'd out was not the same two chicken wings that were fed 6 hours earlier. That would be impossible. She still has whatever it was that did not agree with her in her system.

Feed NOTHING but the bone-in, skinless, fatless, organless chicken for a few days. You may even still have diarrhea for a day or two more. But if your mom sticks this out, I promise that good things will come.


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## Pimzilla (May 1, 2011)

Awww thanks, I'll try convince her.
I'm sure she is not feeding anything else than chicken, she is pretty good with that. Don't think her dog has had a treat for several years because of her problems.

*Edit
Just got an e-mail from her that she is giving up and will feed her boiled fish tonight. She has given her a breastbone with almost no meat on today and although she doesn't have much in her system she still needs to go out every 3 hours. I'm just wondering if others have had similar problems when changing to raw?
I'm still trying to convince her to stick with it, not sure I'll manage though


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## Pimzilla (May 1, 2011)

Thanks for all the support but unfortunately she did feed her the fish last night and was happy with it since the pup finally seemed to settle down and get some sleep without stomach cramps. I understand her decision but wish that she would have given it more than 5 days to try make it work with a dog like her.:frown:


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## Ania's Mommy (Feb 8, 2009)

Does she still plan on phasing the cortisone out? Do you think she'd try it again once she has?


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## Pimzilla (May 1, 2011)

I'm not sure what the plan with the cortisone is, I know she mentioned that she was gonna give it for quite a while and then slowly decrease the doze at some point but I didn't really pay attention to how long.

I'm unfortunately very sure she won't ever try feeding raw again :sad:
The reply I just got from her said that her stomach finally seemed to settle a bit this morning even though she still got diarrhoea with a bit of blood in. She agrees she probably stopped trying too early but she could not watch her pup suffer with stomach pains and that bad diarrhoea and it's the first time ever she has had blood in her poop. She now believes that her dogs intestines are too inflamed to be able to handle a raw diet no matter what I think or say about that. 

I think I might have to go to plan B and convince her to at least not feed kibble, rather cook her own food or something without grains. Perhaps that works ok and then do another try, but I doubt she would want to change anything if she find something that works.


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

it's not the worst tragedy if your mother's dog is fed cooked....at least it's not kibble..and boiled fish certainly can't hurt the dog....

i can certainly understand what she's going through as we went through a very hard beginning, but we knew what caused it.....and it was user error.

had i listened and just stuck to chicken backs, minus skin and organs and excess fat, it wouldn't have taken six months to make things right....

i don't know what is going on with your mother's dog....but if cortisone is needed to stop runny poo, and she followed your instructions and gave the dog no more or less what you stated....

there is more than likely something else going on....that needs to be checked.


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## Pimzilla (May 1, 2011)

Yea there is obviously an inflammation going on. But that's all the vet can really find and I think they have done all tests possible except actually gastroscopy as my mum already is in debt cause the insurance is not covering the huge costs she spent on that poor dog trying to find out what's wrong. 
That's why I have been pushing raw because I think it's caused by grains. So plan B is a cooked grain free diet, I just hope she agrees with me there. But sometimes she is a bit lazy...


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

Pimzilla said:


> Yea there is obviously an inflammation going on. But that's all the vet can really find and I think they have done all tests possible except actually gastroscopy as my mum already is in debt cause the insurance is not covering the huge costs she spent on that poor dog trying to find out what's wrong.
> That's why I have been pushing raw because I think it's caused by grains. So plan B is a cooked grain free diet, I just hope she agrees with me there. But sometimes she is a bit lazy...


when my mother in law had two of our dogs...they liked her better than they liked us, so they went to live with her..it was win win.....we were not yet on raw, but we were on home cooking so we cooked the meals for her dogs....she lives on social security and just didn't have the money to cook for the doogs...so we did it...and it evolved into a 75% - 25% meat and veggie with fish and organs as part of the meal....

maybe you could do that. we did, sometimes add quinoa, which to me is the least toxic of all grains and has protein in it plus it's a great stabiliser for stools....

and, even though now i would try to find out why this dog keeps having loose stools on boney chicken and has to be on prednisone.....i think home cooked is better than kibble. 

if you have the funds, perhaps a gastro specialist would be in order? maybe a birthday present for your mother? she seems especially fond of her doggie.


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## Pimzilla (May 1, 2011)

Yea I'm sure she will want what's best for her pup. I'll tell her about quinoa, never heard about anyone giving it to their dogs but it's good food. Other suggestions about cooked good food will be welcome since I think my mum will be glad to hear anything else than raw preaches from me. And just cooked fish won't be nutritious enough in the end.

Wish I had the money, but unfortunately I'm worse off than my mum atm being unemployed :frown:
So if anyone in the UK got a job let me know :heh:

I really appreciate all support I get on here, thanks


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