# Canned vs. Dry (the old debate)



## pommom (Apr 13, 2012)

I have two Pomeranians, both going on four years old. I started both on Nature's Variety frozen raw. The male did fine on it; no digestion problems. The female developed severe diarrhea after about four months. She actually had diarrhea and/or soft stools from March to September (of 08) and the vet attributed it to the raw diet (possibly some was defrosted to long, bacteria infected, etc.). In any event, it took six months to get her straightened out. I had to keep her on prescription canned until her stools formed and then slowly transition her over to kibble. I bought Now small breed for both of them and though they liked it at first, they wouldn't eat it without a little canned food mixed in. Over a year, I slowly introduced them to different high quality dry and canned foods ranging from Orijen, Acana, Go Natural, Taste of the Wild, Wysong, Solid Gold, Nature's Variety (all dry), to Abady, Wysong, Taste of the Wild, Go Natural, Merrick, Fromm, Evangers, Weruva, Dave's, and Lotus to name the most, all canned. I still rotate with these brands, sometimes four different canned varieties over the course of two weeks. They do fine on all; no diarrhea or stomach problems. However, they quickly tired of all the kibble, even with canned added. I still have them on Now Small Breed Kibble with a little canned mixed in but for the past few months, they've been pretty much eating the canned and flicking the kibble out of the bowl. I've been debating whether to just give them straight canned food and leave it at that or stick with what I'm doing, even though it's wasting food. The kibble is obviously more cost effective, even though they are both small dogs but if they don't really eat it, I'm throwing money away. 

So, the kibble vs. canned debate goes on. How do you all feel feeding straight canned? My last three Poms only ate canned food and though two had heart disease (one was a pet shop dog so I know that was genetic related), two lived to be 14 even with heart disease and the other lived to be 16. I attribute the ones with heart disease living for so long due to the fact they ate all their meals and thus kept up their strength and weight even while on several medications. 

Both of my dogs love to chew Nylabones, even the hard ones so we don't really have any teeth issues, though the female has some staining but not severe (as the vet stated). Would it be fine to just feed them the canned food since they are cleaning their teeth by chewing the Nylabones? I know it is more costly but I only have two small dogs. I would not afford it if I was a breeder or kennel owner and they finish their meals vs. leaving some when I feed kibble. 

What do you think? How many of you feed just canned?


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## GoingPostal (Sep 5, 2011)

Kibble doesn't really clean teeth anyways, it might be slightly more effective than canned but not anything wonderful. Canned has the advantage of proper hydration so if you want to feed just canned you certainly can (ha ha). Give them raw bones for cleaning or brush their teeth.


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## SaharaNight Boxers (Jun 28, 2011)

Personally, something about most canned food just grosses me out. The smell and texture. I just wouldn't want to eat mush all the time. What about something like Freshpet? The consistency of canned sorta but not as gross seeming to me. None of this is against you in any way so you know. Just my opinion.


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## Gally (Jan 28, 2012)

I don't think there is anything wrong with feeding just canned food as long as it is high quality. I think the reason more people don't do this is because feeding canned tends to be significantly more expensive than dry.


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## Maxy24 (Mar 5, 2011)

I generally believe canned food is much better than dry. Coming from a cat world, kibble is pretty much not even considered an acceptable food source for a cat IMO. The main reasons are hydration (cats don't have much of a thirst drive as it would hinder them in the desert environment they came from) and fewer carbs, and that point applies to dogs. See in order to make kibble hard and crunchy they MUST have a decent amount of carbohydrates, without it you can't make kibble. Wet foods don't need carbs, many put them in because it appeals to humans and because it is a cheap source of protein, but you can find high quality canned food with VERY few carbohydrates. Thus I consider these foods more appropriate for both dogs and cats. The reason my dog is on kibble/canned mix is because canned costs a lot (For the two cats it's $100-$120ish a month). 

So IMO canned is a better diet than kibble. As far as teeth go, kibble does not clean teeth, canned does not stick to teeth more than kibble (that argument never made sense to me, what sticks to your teeth more, pudding or biscotti?). I do think you should do something to keep the teeth clean since small dogs are especially prone to getting nasty. You can offer bones a couple times a week, brush them, or buy the water additives/gels/sprays they have available (I've heard some do work well). I don't think a nylabone will get down to the gums, though it make prevent some tartar build up on the overall tooth. It's the same problem kibble has, it might scrape at the tooth but doesn't get up near the gum at all and that's where dogs really have issues. They don't get cavities so much, they get gum disease.


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## DaViking (Sep 27, 2011)

Nothing wrong in feeding canned food instead of dry. Just a heads up, many have their wet formulas manufactured in asia or south america, or source ingredients from china for the wet formulas whereas the dry equivalent often contain all (or mostly) north american ingredients. Fromm is one exception, they brought home their canned production.



Maxy24 said:


> The main reasons are hydration and fewer carbs, and that point applies to dogs. See in order to make kibble hard and crunchy they MUST have a decent amount of carbohydrates, without it you can't make kibble. Wet foods don't need carbs, many put them in because it appeals to humans and because it is a cheap source of protein, but you can find high quality canned food with VERY few carbohydrates. Thus I consider these foods more appropriate for both dogs and cats.


Dogs make great use of those carbohydrates. The big issues start when moderately to less active dogs eat a carb heavy diet. That's a recipe for disaster. In my opinion low to moderate carb levels say from 20% to 30% from quality grains or legumes is perfect. It's the starch in carbohydrate heavy ingredients that is the binder. You can separate that out and still make a low to medium carb formula. Or today you can even make 100% starch free kibble if you wanted. Here's a bait for the purist crowd; spirulina, how's that for protein :shocked:
I don't disagree with you in the appropriateness of proteins and fat per say but I absolutely believe active to very active dogs or dogs with a high metabolism should have a certain amount of their energy from carbohydrates. And under certain circumstances those carbs are absolutely needed to perform.

Kibble should be fed as soaked 30mins in luke warm water (I know I know, there he goes again with his water, lol :smile: )


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## Caty M (Aug 13, 2010)

DaViking said:


> Nothing wrong in feeding canned food instead of dry. Just a heads up, many have their wet formulas manufactured in asia or south america, or source ingredients from china for the wet formulas whereas the dry equivalent often contain all (or mostly) north american ingredients. Fromm is one exception, they brought home their canned production.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Just wondering why you think that dogs with very fast metabolisms should have carbs- I'm curious. I have a dog with a very very fast metabolism.. she weighs 9.5lb and eats around 1lb of raw a day. That's generally what a 45lb dog would eat. Her breed (Italian greyhound) generally don't have fast metabolisms.

My cats don't get any more plaque on their teeth when they eat canned vs dry.


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## Caty M (Aug 13, 2010)

One pound of her food a day roughly equals 600-1000 calories depending on what she is fed.. roughly the same as 2 cups of Orijen or 3 of a regular kibble- a LOT for a teeny dog.


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## DaViking (Sep 27, 2011)

Caty M said:


> Just wondering why you think that dogs with very fast metabolisms should have carbs- I'm curious. I have a dog with a very very fast metabolism.. she weighs 9.5lb and eats around 1lb of raw a day. That's generally what a 45lb dog would eat. Her breed (Italian greyhound) generally don't have fast metabolisms.
> 
> My cats don't get any more plaque on their teeth when they eat canned vs dry.


Easier to maintain desired weight in dogs with high natural metabolism using a steady stream of carbohydrates.

For your dog, I think every dog is different. Since you obviously are able to keep her at good weight and healthy with a raw diet a 45lb dog normally would eat then that's what you should do since it's your preference and what you believe in. Do you participate in any activity?


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## Caty M (Aug 13, 2010)

DaViking said:


> Easier to maintain desired weight in dogs with high natural metabolism using a steady stream of carbohydrates.
> 
> For your dog, I think every dog is different. Since you obviously are able to keep her at good weight and healthy with a raw diet a 45lb dog normally would eat then that's what you should do since it's your preference and what you believe in. Do you participate in any activity?


Not really.. I want to get started in some lure this year.. but she is still very skittish around other dogs. She goes for an hour long walk daily- with a 5km run or hike twice a week, and every night we go to the park for 15 minutes just to let her sprint around offleash. On cold days (-5C or colder) she doesn't go outdoors at all except to pee because she gets very cold. 

Since I started adding much more fat to her diet she's kept weight on better.


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## NotAChampionFan (Apr 6, 2012)

Dogs in competitive events that don't get enough calories from carbohydrates can be very sluggish with terrible endurance, and generally rebuild muscle glycogen much slower than dogs that do get carbohydrates. I have personally seen a few go into seizures from low blood sugar because it is more difficult for dogs on very low carbohydrate diets to keep blood sugar stable. 

This is one of the reasons that a mix of grains is used. Rice is a fast burner whereas Corn/Oats/Barley are mid to long burners.

Once in an anaerobic state, then fat takes over.

I don't believe there is one respected "performance food" on the market that uses potato or is grain free.

The experts know better. If your read the research on racing greyhounds it is pretty clear they do best with lower protein and higher carbs. 

High protein, above 32%, creates heat and heat is bad for a dog that is supposed to be running 8 hours a day. Fat and carbs burn cooler.

If you going to run that IG, then ditch the grain free and use a 30-32/20 food with grain. Also evaluate the food based on calories from each nutritional group not by reading the label. A good 30/20 food will have around 25 - 30% of calories from carbs, which is what I like to feed.

I don't think I would feed a naturally thin, high metabolism dog like an IG or Whippet a grain free food to begin with.


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## DaViking (Sep 27, 2011)

NotAChampionFan said:


> Dogs in competitive events that don't get enough calories from carbohydrates can be very sluggish with terrible endurance, and generally rebuild muscle glycogen much slower than dogs that do get carbohydrates. I have personally seen a few go into seizures from low blood sugar because it is more difficult for dogs on very low carbohydrate diets to keep blood sugar stable.
> 
> This is one of the reasons that a mix of grains is used. Rice is a fast burner whereas Corn/Oats/Barley are mid to long burners.
> 
> ...


All this makes sense 

I wish the term "Grain Free" was never introduced. Most of these new GF formulas have so many other attributes related to ingredient sourcing and composition that I think they could have come up with something else than simply "grain free". In my opinion it is *firstly* about levels of protein vs. fat vs. carbohydrates, then *secondly* what short and longer term effect the chosen carbs have on sugar levels. With those *two* main points you have a good base for choosing an appropriate formula for the dog and it's activity level.

"Respected" is a vague word and it's a big world out there. There are mushers and various other handlers who solely uses low'ish carb grain free formulas. Have they ever won anything that makes noise around the world? Not to my knowledge. Do they still perform amazingly in their respective field of work? Absolutely in my opinion. None of this really applies to most dogs around the world though. It's sad but I think most dogs around the globe are in the moderate/low to low activity range. It's not like underfeeding is a problem (minus blatant neglect obviously). A backyard king or a couch potato doesn't need all the energy it's served from 40% to 70% grains. All these random spikes in sugar levels are unnecessary in my opinion.

I don't think Caty M's is putting her IG on dry foods (correct me if I am wrong) but if she is I wouldn't shy away from recommending a food with 20% to 30% carbs from legumes or even potatoes. However, if the activity level rises dramatically with racing/luring, agility or similar (and she already got a high metabolism) I agree, I'd look into other more classic type of formulas or topping it with a homemade carb mix of some sort. That's my $0.02


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## PDXdogmom (Jun 30, 2010)

To the OP: If you don't mind the extra cost of canned dog food and you're happy with the quality of the brand you buy, then feed solely canned food to your dogs. There wouldn't be any health issues to that.

If you want to cut costs and feed some higher quality fresh food, then choose a good quality basic kibble to feed at a 75% ratio to 25% fresh cooked meat from you kitchen.


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## wolfsnaps88 (Jan 2, 2012)

OP: Whether of kibble or canned, what concerns me is their teeth. Neither does a good job of cleaning teeth. Canned would be even worse for teeth. You mentioned you have dogs in the past with heart disease. Poor dental hygiene leads to bad hearts. So for your current babies, whatever you decide to do, make sure you do something about those teeth. I am a raw feeder and would recommend a raw meaty bones every couple of days for them to chew on to clean their teeth. If this would not work, an enzyme gel or toothpaste everyday would be needed to keep their teeth healthy. 

Remember, bad teeth leads to bad hearts!

Good luck with whatever you do.


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## lovemydogsalways (Mar 4, 2012)

If they will only eat canned well then that is what I would feed. I agree about keeping their teeth clean with an RMB. Wal-Mart has Gold Leaf chicken quarters for .59/pound. It is a 10 pound bag and the quarters are big enough that your little dogs would have to gnaw on them awhile to eat them which is what helps keep teeth clean.


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## pommom (Apr 13, 2012)

Thanks, everyone for your input. I appreciate it. Regarding their teeth, I add Dental Defense to their water and it seems to help. The male's teeth are cleaner and whiter than mine, lol and I attribute that to the Nylabones because they have been that way since he was a pup and I only started using the Dental Defense about two months ago. The female's teeth, as I mentioned, are a little stained but not terribly bad. She could do with a cleaning this fall when she gets her shots but by no means does she have rotten teeth or inflamed gums. I shy away from the RMB because the male broke a molar gnawing on them and it had to be extracted ($$$). Plus, the grease from the meat on the bones gets all over their fur and makes a mess. I think the Nylabone works and they like them. I watch them and they gnaw on them on both sides of the mouth so they are scraping the teeth (those little rough bits on the ends of the bones after they chew them). Even the vet asked what I was doing to keep their teeth so good. 

I do feed a high quality kibble mixed with a little canned but it doesn't matter to them how high quality it is, they still won't eat it. Some days, depending on what kind of canned food I mix with it, such as say Merrick Wingaling, they will eat all of it. I started to do a 60/40 canned to kibble ratio but it still doesn't really matter if they're leaving the kibble. So I guess I'll just finish the bag of kibble I have and then do straight canned and maybe add some fresh frozen pureed vegetables with it.


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## Caty M (Aug 13, 2010)

pommom said:


> Thanks, everyone for your input. I appreciate it. Regarding their teeth, I add Dental Defense to their water and it seems to help. The male's teeth are cleaner and whiter than mine, lol and I attribute that to the Nylabones because they have been that way since he was a pup and I only started using the Dental Defense about two months ago. The female's teeth, as I mentioned, are a little stained but not terribly bad. She could do with a cleaning this fall when she gets her shots but by no means does she have rotten teeth or inflamed gums. I shy away from the RMB because the male broke a molar gnawing on them and it had to be extracted ($$$). Plus, the grease from the meat on the bones gets all over their fur and makes a mess. I think the Nylabone works and they like them. I watch them and they gnaw on them on both sides of the mouth so they are scraping the teeth (those little rough bits on the ends of the bones after they chew them). Even the vet asked what I was doing to keep their teeth so good.
> 
> I do feed a high quality kibble mixed with a little canned but it doesn't matter to them how high quality it is, they still won't eat it. Some days, depending on what kind of canned food I mix with it, such as say Merrick Wingaling, they will eat all of it. I started to do a 60/40 canned to kibble ratio but it still doesn't really matter if they're leaving the kibble. So I guess I'll just finish the bag of kibble I have and then do straight canned and maybe add some fresh frozen pureed vegetables with it.


What kind of bones were you feeding? Marrow bones, right? They are very dense (they have to hold up 1500lb animals!!) so yes, they can break teeth. Most people here avoid them.

You have a pomeranian right? Maybe once a week I'd give a chicken wing instead of the kibble, or a turkey neck. The bones are much too soft to break teeth on- I feed those types of bones daily.


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## chowder (Sep 7, 2008)

If I had small dogs and didn't worry about cost so much, then I would feed only a 95% meat canned diet and eliminate kibble altogether. A lot of tarter on teeth are caused by carbohydrates in food and kibble does nothing to clean the teeth. If kibble cleaned teeth, then there would not be all these dogs needing dentals at the vets. 

An all meat or 95% meat high quality canned would give you a higher level of meat content, more moisture, less starches and unnecessary ingredients, and you wouldn't have to worry about adding 'toppers' and mixing with water. Just avoid the fancy ones filled with gravies and vegies and fruits to make them appeal to the owners.


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## twotonelover (Jan 10, 2011)

If your worried about their teeth, I used PetzLife oral gel/spray for my dog when my dog was on commercial food and it helped a lot. Haven't had to use it since I switched to raw, but I think its a great tool to help dogs with tarter or who have the potential to get tarter.  Maybe you could try and out and see if it works well with your dogs? Or you could feed a turkey neck/chicken wing every couple days. My aunt and uncle feed their Pom all canned food with a turkey neck, chicken wing or frozen foot every couple days and his teeth are in great shape!

I'd personally just do a high quality canned food instead of kibble, maybe adding some fresh meats along with it every once in a while.


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## DaViking (Sep 27, 2011)

Go with trusted manufactures. Something like Fromm Gold canned, high quality in all parts of production. Make sure to get some amount of the energy from good carbs. Genes and bargain basement foods are a much bigger factor to dental issues than those carbs found in quality foods. Re Nylabones; I have also seen some effect using them even if they are not marketed specifically for that purpose.


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## pommom (Apr 13, 2012)

I'm not really worried about the teeth, my main objective for this post was to see how many feed just canned and why and if anyone adds anything to it or is it a complete balanced diet just feeding straight canned food (high quality that is). I would never, ever feed my dogs anything from a grocery store or even Petco. As I had mentioned, I feed only high quality canned/dry. My belief has always been (and I share this with new dog owners), it's better to pay more now and have a healthy dog then to pay less for cheap food and have high vet bills later due to food related allergies/illness.


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## lovemydogsalways (Mar 4, 2012)

If your only question is if canned food is a balanced diet then the answer is yes. Sounds like you know what better ones to feed.


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