# Which Would You Choose?



## meggels (May 30, 2010)

And why? If you can order from first to last for your preference, that'd be great 


Food #1: 

Turkey giblets (turkey livers and turkey hearts), turkey meal, turkey, chicken meal, tapioca, pea protein, poultry fat (turkey and chicken, preserved with mixed tocopherols), dried whole egg, whole flaxseed, menhaden fish oil, natural chicken flavor, peas, sunflower oil, salt, l-carnitine, potassium chloride, zinc proteinate, iron proteinate, vitamin E supplement, l-ascorbyl-2-polyphosphate (source of vitamin C), choline chloride, biotin, copper proteinate, manganese proteinate, niacin, calcium pantothenate, sodium selenite, vitamin A supplement, riboflavin supplement, vitamin D3 supplement, thiamine mononitrate, vitamin B12 supplement, calcium iodate, pyridoxine hydrochloride, folic acid

Protein: 38% Fat: 18%


Food #2: 

Bison meal, peas, pea protein, tapioca, dried egg product,canola oil (preserved with mixed tocopherols, a source of vitamin E), flaxseed, lamb meal, pea fiber, natural flavors, blueberry fiber, cranberry fiber, apples, blueberries, carrots, spinach, cranberries, choline chloride, potassium chloride, dl-methionine, l-lysine, taurine, l-carnitine, vitamin A supplement, vitamin D3 supplement, vitamin E supplement, zinc sulfate, ferrous sulfate, niacin, folic acid, biotin, manganese sulfate, copper sulfate, salt, calcium pantothenate, thiamine mononitrate, pyridoxine hydrochloride, riboflavin supplement, l-ascorbyl-2-polyphosphate (source of vitamin C), zinc proteinate, manganese proteinate, copper proteinate, calcium iodate, sodium selenite, cobalt carbonate, vitamin B12 supplement, Yucca schidgera extract, rosemary extract, dried Lactobacillus plantarum fermentation product, dried Enterococus faecium fermentation product, dried Lactobacillus casei fermentation product, dried Lactobacillus acidophilus fermentation product

Protein: 34% Fat: 18%


Food #3:

Turkey Meal, Tapioca, Canola Oil, Peas, Natural Flavor, Montmorillonite Clay, Coconut Oil, Potassium Chloride, Vitamins (Choline Chloride, Vitamin E Supplement, Ascorbic Acid, Biotin, Niacin Supplement, Vitamin A Acetate, d-Calcium Pantothenate, Riboflavin Supplement, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride, Thiamine Mononitrate, Vitamin B12 Supplement, Carotene, Vitamin D3 Supplement, Folic Acid), Sea Salt, Minerals (Zinc Proteinate, Iron Proteinate, Manganese Proteinate, Copper Proteinate, Sodium Selenite, Ethylenediamine Dihydriodide), Dried Green Tea, Mixed Tocopherols with Citric Acid (a natural preservative), Rosemary Extract.

Protein: 29% Fat: 18%


Food #4: 

Rabbit Meal, Salmon Meal, Tapioca, Chicken Fat, Tomato Pomace, Pumpkinseeds, Sun-Cured Alfalfa Meal, Montmorillonite Clay, Natural Pork Flavor, Vitamins (Choline Chloride, Vitamin E Supplement, Ascorbic Acid, Biotin, Niacin Supplement, Vitamin A Acetate, d-Calcium Pantothenate, Riboflavin Supplement, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride, Thiamine Mononitrate, Vitamin B12 Supplement, Carotene, Vitamin D3 Supplement, Folic Acid), Potassium Chloride, Minerals (Zinc Proteinate, Iron Proteinate, Manganese Proteinate, Copper Proteinate, Sodium Selenite, Ethylenediamine Dihydriodide), Sea Salt, Dried Kelp, Peas, Cranberries, Blueberries, Direct-Fed Microorganisms (Saccharomyces Cerevisiae Yeast Culture, Dried Enterococcus Faecium Fermentation Product, Dried Lactobacillus Acidophilus Fermentation Product, Dried Aspergillus Niger Fermentation Extract, Dried Trichoderma Longibrachiatum Fermentation Extract, Dried Bacillus Subtilis Fermentation Extract), Inulin, Mixed Tocopherols with Citric Acid (a natural preservative), Rosemary Extract, Freeze Dried Rabbit, Freeze Dried Pork Liver, Freeze Dried Pork Heart, Freeze Dried Ground Rabbit Bone. 

Protein: 35% Fat: 22% (is this high???)


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## Unosmom (May 3, 2009)

#4 (it looks like this food has a decent meat content and low carb, not happy about the pork flavor, I'd ask them whats in it)
#1 (overall looks like a good food, but I'm concerned that organs come before meat meals since they should make up smaller portion)
#3(looks like a decent food, though I'm not a fan of canola oil and natural flavor)
#2( since bison isnt cheap, it looks like they are using pea protein to bulk up the protein content, I'd ask the company how much protein comes from meat and how much from plants).


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## DaViking (Sep 27, 2011)

Without knowing anything else, for what it is worth:
#4 (Good meat content. Minus on tapioca and clay)
#2 (Plant based but peas are a good source of both carbs and proteins - low GL, minus for tapioca)
#1 (Looks ok but in reality tapioca is likely #3 ingredient and main source of carbs)
#3 (Tapioca + clay)

Everything is relative. They all look ok, but wouldn't be my first choice.


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## RCTRIPLEFRESH5 (Feb 11, 2010)

meggels said:


> And why? If you can order from first to last for your preference, that'd be great
> 
> 
> Food #1:
> ...


food 1- looks like one of the better options
food 2-earthbirn great plains feast....not a fan at ALL.
food 3- nature's variety turkey...citric acid is a big no
food 4 nature' variety rabbit....id chose this as the winner if there was no citric acid...
nature's v makes stellar formulas....just that pesky citric acid..and idk if theya re ethoxyqwuin frree.


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## RCTRIPLEFRESH5 (Feb 11, 2010)

clay is a good ingridient....so is tapaoica. so why minus....potatoes are worse.


DaViking said:


> Without knowing anything else, for what it is worth:
> #4 (Good meat content. Minus on tapioca and clay)
> #2 (Plant based but peas are a good source of both carbs and proteins - low GL, minus for tapioca)
> #1 (Looks ok but in reality tapioca is likely #3 ingredient and main source of carbs)
> ...


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## twoisplenty (Nov 12, 2008)

I would pick:

1
4
3
2

I am all about the first 5 ingredients. Remember that when a meat source is listed as chicken or in this case Turkey Giblets it is measured in its raw state prior to being cooked, products that contain the word "meal" Turkey Meal for example are measured in their already cooked state. So Taking your first dog food listed as an example, even though the first 5 ingredients are listed as: Turkey giblets (turkey livers and turkey hearts), turkey meal, turkey, chicken meal, tapioca IN ACTUALITY it is closer to turkey meal, chicken meal, turkey giblets, turkey, tapioca.


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## DaViking (Sep 27, 2011)

RCTRIPLEFRESH5 said:


> clay is a good ingridient....so is tapaoica. so why minus....potatoes are worse.


A well designed food have no need for clay imo. When I see clay I get the feeling that the manufacturer is cutting corners.

Tapioca is a lesser source of carbohydrates which will produce a relatively high glycemic load as a main ingredient, depending on the percentage of carbohydrates per unit (anything from 20% to 60%) That it is gluten free doesn't mean much in nutritional terms, only in allergic terms.

I belive in a low carb diet and low glucose environment for dogs. Not zero but low. When we throw out the grains I don't see any point in exchanging them for ingredients that produce similar or worse glucose loads. To me it is like going just half the distance. Reduce the carbohydrates and reduce the glycemic load but do not kill off available nutrients from plant matter is my philosophy.


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## Caty M (Aug 13, 2010)

1,4,3,2.. The last two interchangeable depending on the protein and fat percentage.

I think it's GREAT to see livers and hearts in the ingredients. They are arguably the two highest nutrient parts of the animal.


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## RCTRIPLEFRESH5 (Feb 11, 2010)

DaViking said:


> A well designed food have no need for clay imo. When I see clay I get the feeling that the manufacturer is cutting corners.
> 
> Tapioca is a lesser source of carbohydrates which will produce a relatively high glycemic load as a main ingredient, depending on the percentage of carbohydrates per unit (anything from 20% to 60%) That it is gluten free doesn't mean much in nutritional terms, only in allergic terms.
> 
> I belive in a low carb diet and low glucose environment for dogs. Not zero but low. When we throw out the grains I don't see any point in exchanging them for ingredients that produce similar or worse glucose loads. To me it is like going just half the distance. Reduce the carbohydrates and reduce the glycemic load but do not kill off available nutrients from plant matter is my philosophy.


1-It is a valid concern that they are using clay to possibly increase the nutritional profile of an otherwise lackluster food, but that concern should be demolished by reading the ingredients. The foods meg posted with clay are nature's variety instinct...and they are obviously high meat low carb foods. In this case the clay is more of an enrichment. You ay say that it doesn't have enough naturally occurring vitamins, but meat is really all that is needed and NV has it! Raw feeders don't add vitamins except omega from time to times.

2-I meant that a carb has to be used i na dry kibble as a binder. I was under the impression that tapaoica is lower glyceic than the standard potatoes! I think the aority on this site believe in low to 0 carbs for dogs. Out of curiosity why don;t you believe in 0 carbs? Just weird you'd say low carb is nice, but not 0?


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## DaViking (Sep 27, 2011)

RCTRIPLEFRESH5 said:


> 1-It is a valid concern that they are using clay to possibly increase the nutritional profile of an otherwise lackluster food, but that concern should be demolished by reading the ingredients. The foods meg posted with clay are nature's variety instinct...and they are obviously high meat low carb foods. In this case the clay is more of an enrichment. You ay say that it doesn't have enough naturally occurring vitamins, but meat is really all that is needed and NV has it! Raw feeders don't add vitamins except omega from time to times.


It's a stool hardener. Adding it will firm up the poop. No one knows how the stool produced from this food would look like without the clay. Hence why I question the motives behind it's use. I'd stay away because I see no good reason for adding it to your everyday food. For the rest of your comment; I don't know what you are talking about.



RCTRIPLEFRESH5; said:


> 2-I meant that a carb has to be used i na dry kibble as a binder. I was under the impression that tapaoica is lower glyceic than the standard potatoes! I think the aority on this site believe in low to 0 carbs for dogs. Out of curiosity why don;t you believe in 0 carbs? Just weird you'd say low carb is nice, but not 0?


Again, not sure what you are saying here but... 0) Carbs arn't used in kibble as a binder, starch are (can be) 1) Yes, tapioca is slightly better than potato, not much. 2) Nothing weird about it. Because I believe in feeding nutrients and fiber from plant matter, supplementing meat proteins and fat. If I where to feed raw I would go far a BARF diet (which technically is not raw). However, I don't think it is wise to create human style glucose levels for dogs so therefor I like low levels of carbohydrates coming from low GI ingredients. Glycemic Loads from around 8 to 12 is good in my book. If you want to discuss carbs vs no carbs you can head over to the Ingredient section, not participating anymore. Low amounts of carbohydrates is perfectly fine for dogs, the grey wolf randomly eats carbs and fiber. I respect those who stay away from carbs all together.


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## meggels (May 30, 2010)

Hmmm. I am on the hunt for a kibble with no taters and low glycemic. I know that Nutrisca is one, but that made Murph poop so much. (Yes, looking into possible kibbles for Murph, please don't flame me for it).


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## DaViking (Sep 27, 2011)

meggels said:


> Hmmm. I am on the hunt for a kibble with no taters and low glycemic. I know that Nutrisca is one, but that made Murph poop so much. (Yes, looking into possible kibbles for Murph, please don't flame me for it).


Horizon Legacy or Amicus.
Wholesome Blend if you can find it south of the border.


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## meggels (May 30, 2010)

Horizon Legacy looks pretty darn good! I can get it locally also. My only complaint would be that it's chicken based. I don't know if he's allergic to chicken at all, but I tend to give him the more unique proteins in kibble to try and be "safe".


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## meggels (May 30, 2010)

Hmmm, tapioca is pretty high on the glycemic index eh?


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## DaViking (Sep 27, 2011)

meggels said:


> Hmmm, tapioca is pretty high on the glycemic index eh?


Yeah, potato, sweet potato and tapioca are all on the high side. Peas, beans, lentils and pulses are low. I'd give Legacy a try. They will come out with another new grain free food in December, priced lower than Legacy and Amicus. I don't know the source of the meat protein but it will be extreme low GI.


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## Unosmom (May 3, 2009)

what about something with millet instead, they are also low glycemic. Natures logic comes to mind as well as canine caviar.


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## jdatwood (Apr 13, 2009)

meggels said:


> Hmmm. I am on the hunt for a kibble with no taters and low glycemic. I know that Nutrisca is one, but that made Murph poop so much. (Yes, looking into possible kibbles for Murph, please don't flame me for it).


No flaming... but curious... WHY?


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## meggels (May 30, 2010)

I just feel burnt out on doing raw. I don't think I'm in the place financially or space wise to make the commitment to it, and I think raw really is a lifestyle commitment for your dogs. I still think it is the *ideal* way to feed a dog though.


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## meggels (May 30, 2010)

Unosmom said:


> what about something with millet instead, they are also low glycemic. Natures logic comes to mind as well as canine caviar.



According to one website, millet is a GI of 71 which is rather high? I always thought it was low too. Barley is apparently only 25...


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## DaViking (Sep 27, 2011)

Unosmom said:


> what about something with millet instead, they are also low glycemic. Natures logic comes to mind as well as canine caviar.


Both of those are good alternatives but for those who want to limit unhealthy sugar loads they fall into the same levels as most other foods. Typically they will produce glycemic loads from 20 to 30 which is well into the highs. From a pure GL perspective Natures Logic is the better one here at around 19.


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## Caty M (Aug 13, 2010)

Don't just look at just the glycemic index of one ingredient, too. Fat and protein lower the glycemic load of the whole meal by slowing digestion and release of sugar. A food higher in protein and fat is generally going to be lower GI/GL... even if the sole starch is high GI.


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## DaViking (Sep 27, 2011)

Caty M said:


> Don't just look at just the glycemic index of one ingredient, too. Fat and protein lower the glycemic load of the whole meal by slowing digestion and release of sugar. A food higher in protein and fat is generally going to be lower GI/GL... even if the sole starch is high GI.


Good point but protein/fat levels are common for 90% of all these foods, comparing them to classic formulas would be different. Different in that new formulas using low GI ingredients would look even better considering higher levels of fat and protein. Calories comes from 3 macronutrients. Protein, carbohydrates and fat. When proteins and fat is increased carbohydrates must be lowered. It's a 3-way balance that will never change and holds true regardless of brand.


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## nikkiluvsu15 (Jun 9, 2010)

#1... as I'm pretty sure that is what I'm feeding right now :wink: Harleigh is looking fabulous on it! :smile:


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## nikkiluvsu15 (Jun 9, 2010)

meggels said:


> I just feel burnt out on doing raw. I don't think I'm in the place financially or space wise to make the commitment to it, and I think raw really is a lifestyle commitment for your dogs. I still think it is the *ideal* way to feed a dog though.


That is also one of the reasons I chose to go away from raw for a little while (she still gets RMB's quite often though... got one for breakfast this morning actually! ). Well that and I can't find much variety right now.


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## RCTRIPLEFRESH5 (Feb 11, 2010)

nikkiluvsu15 said:


> #1... as I'm pretty sure that is what I'm feeding right now :wink: Harleigh is looking fabulous on it! :smile:


is it wysong?


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## meggels (May 30, 2010)

Well, I picked up a small bag of food #1 today for 9.98 on sale. It is Back to Basics  We'll see how this goes. I'm also only giving him filtered water and I'm going to become a stickler on people not giving him treats when we're out in public. Which stinks, but...I need to. God knows what is in them.


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