# Question...



## DDBsR4Me (Jan 23, 2012)

Another thread got me thinking- I think it was the one about what it actually costs per day to feed certain brands of dry dog food...Anyway on to my question. 

Say you have 2 brands of dog food - one is more of a higher quality and one is medium quality but they both have the same amount of kcals/cup. Would you still have to feed your dog the same amount of the higher quality food as the lower quality one to maintain their weight? 

I guess it just made me wonder, cuz I can kinda see both sides of to where I might think yes you would feed the same amount and no you wouldnt. 

Just curious.....hope this makes sense!


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

:usa::usa::usa::usa::usa:


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## Liz (Sep 27, 2010)

RE, understood and I am jealous sometimes. If I only had the sheltie she would probably get grain fed everything, and tons more variety but we do the best we can within our financial limitations. We feed 9 pounds per day and I pay on average about.75 per pound, some thigns are less somethings a bit more but that's how it averages out. So about 6.75 per day for 7 dogs!


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## Unosmom (May 3, 2009)

Not necessarily, say one food contains the same amount of calories and is 30% protein that comes from corn gluten and soy, vs 30% that comes from meat meal. The meat based food is far more digestible and nutrient dense, with few exceptions, most dogs will be eating less of that food.


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

:usa::usa::usa::usa::usa::usa:


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## DDBsR4Me (Jan 23, 2012)

Magic and Liz - thanks for your replies....but I'm not talking cost. 

My question is based purely on calorie count. I guess it could go the same for even 2 premium foods - say one is grain free and one isn't, but both have the same kcals/cup. My question is, would you feed the same amount of each food based purely on kcals or do the actual ingredients make a difference in how much you would need to feed to maintain weight despite the kcals?


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## mythbuster (Jan 23, 2012)

DDBsR4Me said:


> Magic and Liz - thanks for your replies....but I'm not talking cost.
> 
> My question is based purely on calorie count. I guess it could go the same for even 2 premium foods - say one is grain free and one isn't, but both have the same kcals/cup. My question is, would you feed the same amount of each food based purely on kcals or do the actual ingredients make a difference in how much you would need to feed to maintain weight despite the kcals?


If the calories from each diet are the same, then the feeding amount should be the same. EXCEPT, if you have a lower digestibility of one, there will be undigested energy nutrients passing through the GIT, so what they're eating does not equal what they are metabolizing, and you will have to feed more. Digestibility does not depend on meat vs vegetable protein source. It depends on ingredient quality and processing.


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## DogLuver (Oct 19, 2011)

mythbuster said:


> If the calories from each diet are the same, then the feeding amount should be the same. EXCEPT, if you have a lower digestibility of one, there will be undigested energy nutrients passing through the GIT, so what they're eating does not equal what they are metabolizing, and you will have to feed more. Digestibility does not depend on meat vs vegetable protein source. It depends on ingredient quality and processing.


OK, I'm having a hard time with a few members here giving the same information, because I know there is SOMEONE out there who keeps joining under different names and getting banned over and over for giving false information and so forth, so I'm afraid to believe anyone new...but I'm all up for learning new things, and if you can prove what you're saying is true, I'm open to the ideas you're presenting.

Please explain, in a way that the rest of us can understand, digestibility. Which ingredients are more digestible than others? Also please some sources, links, or where you received your education so we can do further research. It's hard to take one persons word for it when the information contradicts a lot of other information out there.

Maybe the OP can provide 2 foods he/she has in mind with the same kcal/cup content, and you can explain the digestibility theory with specific foods/ingredients.


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## Scarlett_O' (May 19, 2011)

It all depends on the dog, the food, and the ingredients.

HOWEVER, Ive never seen a lower quality food with as good of ingredients as a higher quality food(no matter if it is 1-3 star or 3-5 star)!:wink:


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

:usa::usa::usa::usa::usa:


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## mythbuster (Jan 23, 2012)

DogLuver said:


> OK, I'm having a hard time with a few members here giving the same information, because I know there is SOMEONE out there who keeps joining under different names and getting banned over and over for giving false information and so forth, so I'm afraid to believe anyone new...but I'm all up for learning new things, and if you can prove what you're saying is true, I'm open to the ideas you're presenting.
> 
> Please explain, in a way that the rest of us can understand, digestibility. Which ingredients are more digestible than others? Also please some sources, links, or where you received your education so we can do further research. It's hard to take one persons word for it when the information contradicts a lot of other information out there.
> 
> Maybe the OP can provide 2 foods he/she has in mind with the same kcal/cup content, and you can explain the digestibility theory with specific foods/ingredients.


I am a veterinarian and a pet owner and lover. When I was in practice it amazed me the number of issues that could be managed, prevented, or caused by diet, so I decided to learn more. For the past two years I have been training intensively in animal nutrition. I'm currently working as a nutrition consultant for veterinarians, which means they call me with a case they are having difficulty with, and I help guide them through the workup process, as well as (if indicated) make a dietary recommendation. I work alongside other veterinarians, internal medicine specialists, clinical nutritionists, and masters' in nutrition. 

Digestibility depends on the identity of the ingredient, quality of the ingredient, how the ingredient is processed (ie: grinding, cooking, etc), and freshness of the final product.

When you are talking nutrition, what you are really talking about it nutrients. Food provides nutrients, which belong in one of two categories; energy supplying nutrients (protein, fat, carbohydrates), and non-energy supplying nutrients (vitamins, minerals, water). If you're talking protein, protein is made of strings of amino acids. The identity of the protein is determined by the arrangement and shape of the amino acids. Proteins are broken down by enzymes called proteases, which are produced by the pancreas. The process is the same whether it is plant origin or meat origin, the body cannot determine the source of a nutrient once it is in the body. A lysine amino acid coming from corn gluten is IDENTICAL to a lysine amino acid coming from chicken.

It's difficult to provide references for digestibility because it is so dependent on processing, especially when it comes to protein. For example, 2 companies may use chicken from the same supplier, so in theory, both should show equal digestibility. But if one company improperly processes the ingredient, digestibility will go down. You actually need to ask food companies individually if they do digestibility testing and what kind of digestibility numbers they are able to achieve.

As far as a dogs ability to digest plant matter, these studies discuss starch digestibility: 
• Adult dogs show enzymatic activity, not just puppies. Activity of these enzymes gets higher in adult dogs if their diets contain disaccharides1
• Amylase activity is higher in dogs than in cats, and dog amylase activity is more sensitive to dietary levels of starch2
• Luminal cells of the dog and cat intestine show enzymatic activity for various saccharides (sugars of varying molecular length)3
• Total digestive tract digestibility of saccharides has also been documented (enzymatic, passive, and active transport across cells into circulation)4
Ref: NRC 
1– Kienzle E, J Anim Physiol Anim Nutr, 60:276-288; 1988 
2- Kienzle E, J Anim Physiol Anim Nutr, 69:92-114; 1993
3- Hore P & Messer M, Comp Biochem Physiol, 24:717-725; 1968
4- Gray G, J Nutr, 122:172-177; 1992
• Extruded starch is well digested in both dogs and cats1: 
- up to 99% in dogs
• Raw starch digestibility in dogs2:
- up to 90% from corn & rice starch and 
- 65% from tapioca starch
- 0% from potato starch
Ref: 
NRC - 1Murray et al., J Anim Sci, 77:2180-2186; 1999
- 2Schünemann et al., Fortschr Tierphysiol Tierernnaehr; 1989

This book: Nutrient Requirements of Dogs and Cats has more information than you could ever dream of wanting to know about nutrients, digestibility, etc.....


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

:usa::usa::usa::usa::usa:


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## monkeys23 (Dec 8, 2010)

I will give an actual example from when I used to feed kibble and then half n' half raw/kibble with Scout.

I went from feeding Evo (all three varities) kibble to my dogs to Acana grain free (all three varities then, there are four now)... I fed the same amount of food per day that I did on Evo even though Acana grain free has less kcals/cup. I believe it is because the ingredients were higher quality that I was able to do that. So then due to kibble problems (constipation) I switched Lily to full on prey model raw (amazing instant improvement btw) and for some kooky reason I decided to do half and half pmr/kibble with Scout.

So in the am she got a chicken quarter and on Lily's organ days she also got organ with her chicken quarter. This worked pretty great actually while I still had Acana Grasslands left. BUT then I decided to save $$ with a cheaper, but comparable ingrediet list/calorie food. That was TOTW Sierra Mtn. Yeah that went HORRIBLY! Excuse my language, but it was a shit show. So I gave the food away and went fully pmr with Scout.
What was the difference? Well Acana is made by Champion which is a very reputable company that uses great ingredient sourcing and has a darn good reputation. Whereas TOTW is made by Diamond which is HUGE by comparison (big company always makes quality control standards that much harder... and shareholders want PROFITs!) and has had countless recalls. IMO its not worth the cheaper price.

This has been further driven home for me by what my cat eats. Damn cat refuses to eat anything, but kibble. Granted I haven't been able to actually try raw with her because of living situation circumstances, but thats another story! I will try when I have the opportunity! Anyway she does best on Wellness Core, which is about the most expensive cat kibble you can buy. BUT its the only thing that she eats well, and keeps decent coat on, and maintains optimum muscle tone/weight on.
We've tried TOTW... both cat varieties... did nto go well. She shed like a husky blowing coat and cropped weight she couldn't afford to lose. Puked a lot too.
Tried BB Indoor cat when I first brought her home... she did pretty well, but she was also very sick so I feel I cannot fairly grade the food since anything was an improvment over the cheapo generic cat food she'd gotten at the barn...
Solid Gold Katz-n-Flocken. Meh was not impressed and neither were the cats. They picked at it and had really stinky poo.
Evo = sludge poo. It was not good. AND Evo cat and kitten has very comparable kcals/cup and ingredients to Wellness Core, so go figure.

I am very lucky in that I get high quality natural beef/lamb and game (deer/elk) for free. These form the base of my dogs' diet. I do occasionally buy chicken quarters... but I'd prefer to stay away from factory farmed stuff unless I have no choice. I have bought antibiotic free turkey necks before, but that got expensive real quick. I found another source and have a case waiting for me to pick up... its kind of a drive though, so there is opportunity cost there too. I have ordered from gt.com through a kind co-op person, so that was a large, but extremely worth it cost. Over last year I spent an average of $60/month two feed my two dogs, plus the last three months of the year I have had a little foster staying with me too. If I just had one dog you can bet I'd be more picky about grass fed and etc.


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## DogLuver (Oct 19, 2011)

magicre said:


> i can't necessarily go by calorie count. ingredients, to me, are everything.


OK, but the OP is asking, if you base it on kcal/cup, then with higher kcal/cup you would feed less of that food than another food with less kcal/cup...but if you are comparing ingredients, how would you know to feed more or less based on ingredients alone? What ingredients would be needed in a "said food" to know "oh, well since this food is made up of X, X, and X I wouldn't need to feed as much as the food with X, X, and X"...does this make sense? lol.


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## mythbuster (Jan 23, 2012)

magicre said:


> may i ask what you would consider, from all the choices out there, to be a quality food for dogs?


I hesitate to make food recommendations in forums like this, because I don't believe there is one perfect diet for every dog (or cat..), different individuals will have different nutritional needs. I am not a supporter of any of the "grain free" companies because I believe they base their diets on marketing instead of science and research, and in general, I feel that the websites that rate kibble are completely backwards in how they determine what is good vs what is bad. If someone wants help choosing a diet, first I need to know about the animal and get a sense of what it needs nutritionally, from that, I make a nutritional 'wish list'. From there, I look within the available products of a company I trust and look for the one that best addresses the wish list. 

Ingredients are only as good as the nutrients they supply, so I don't look at the ingredient panel AT ALL when I'm judging the quality of a diet. It is the nutrient parameters that give you an idea of the nutrition in the diet, not the ingredient list. 

These are the questions I ask a company to help me determine if it is worth my consideration: 
1. Do you have a Veterinary Nutritionist or some equivalent on staff in your company? Are they available for consultation or questions?
2. Who formulates your diets and what are their credentials?
3. Which of your diet(s) is AAFCO Feed Trial tested? Which of your diets meet AAFCO Nutritional requirements?
4. What Testing do you do beyond AAFCO trials?
5. What specific quality control measures do you use to assure the consistency and quality of your product line? What safety measures do you use?
6. Where are your diets produced and manufactured? Can this plant be visited?
7. Can you provide a complete product nutrient analysis of your best selling canine and feline pet food including digestibility values?
8. Can you give me the caloric value per can or cup of your diets?

As an interesting aside, I have asked these questions of Champion (a company everyone seems to think is top of the line) on three different occasions, and they have yet to respond.


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

:usa::usa::usa::usa::usa:


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

:usa::usa::usa::usa::usa:


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## mythbuster (Jan 23, 2012)

magicre said:


> those are all very good questions....still, wouldn't it be nice if there were one particular way to the light in feeding a dog?
> 
> some of us feed whole or prey model raw, some feed barf, some feed kibble with grains, kibble without grain, home cooked.....we all have our opinions or research or knowledge or expertise carved in stone once we think we have found THE holy grail of an answer.


It would be nice, but I think it's very dangerous to carve anything in stone. Our nutritional knowledge has and is increasing immensely. To decide that we can't improve upon what we're currently doing is very naive. Until perfection is achieved (sarcasm....), I don't think we should be satisfied with anyone's version of 'the holy grail'.


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## DDBsR4Me (Jan 23, 2012)

I wasn't trying to cause a big debate or anything...it was just a question that popped into my head and thought I'd see what everyone here thought. 




DogLuver said:


> Maybe the OP can provide 2 foods he/she has in mind with the same kcal/cup content, and you can explain the digestibility theory with specific foods/ingredients.


As an example (and I don't know how accurate this information is - I got it off this website http://www.petobesityprevention.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/05/Dog_Dry_Foods.pdf) Purina Pro Plan Adult Chicken and Rice (ick I know) has 489 kcals/cup and Orijen Adult has 483 kcal/cup ....so almost the same amount of kcals per cup. 


Pro plan ingredients: Chicken, brewers rice, poultry by-product meal, corn gluten meal, whole grain wheat, animal fat preserved with mixed-tocopherols (form of Vitamin E), whole grain corn, corn germ meal, brewers dried yeast, fish meal, dried egg product, natural flavor, fish oil, calcium phosphate, salt, potassium chloride, choline chloride, dried colostrum, zinc sulfate, Vitamin E supplement, ferrous sulfate, manganese sulfate, niacin, calcium carbonate, Vitamin A supplement, calcium pantothenate, copper sulfate, thiamine mononitrate, garlic oil, riboflavin supplement, Vitamin B-12 supplement, pyridoxine hydrochloride, folic acid, Vitamin D-3 supplement, calcium iodate, biotin, menadione sodium bisulfite complex (source of Vitamin K activity), sodium selenite.

Orijen: Fresh boneless chicken*, chicken meal, fresh boneless salmon*, turkey meal, herring meal, russet potato, peas, sweet potato, fresh boneless turkey*, fresh whole eggs*, fresh chicken liver*, fresh boneless lake whitefish*, fresh boneless walleye*, sun-cured alfalfa, pea fiber, chicken fat (preserved with mixed tocopherols), organic kelp, pumpkin, chicory root, carrots, spinach, turnip greens, apples, cranberries, blueberries, licorice root, angelica root, fenugreek, marigold flowers, sweet fennel, peppermint leaf, chamomile, dandelion, summer savory, rosemary, vitamin A, vitamin D3, vitamin E, niacin, thiamine mononitrate, riboflavin, d-calcium pantothenate, pyridoxine, folic acid, biotin, vitamin B12, zinc proteinate, iron proteinate, manganese proteinate, copper proteinate, selenium yeast, Lactobacillus acidophilus, Enterococcus faecium.


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

:usa::usa::usa::usa::usa:


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

:usa::usa::usa::usa::usa::usa:


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## DDBsR4Me (Jan 23, 2012)

magicre said:


> but, to the OP, calories is not the issue, it's the quality of each calorie fed to the dog, so science diet bad and k9 better and there are others more appropriate for a dog that is not the company line...royal canin and science diet have to stop...
> 
> so when you go to pick your dog food and you want the biggest bang for your calories.....research some of the threads in this section.
> 
> there are people who have picked out somce pretty good brands that are better for your dog and reasonbly priced and each calorie counts for something...


Thanks Magic....but I'm not looking for a dog food and I wouldn't feed my dogs RC or "Science Death" in a million years. I'm happy with what I'm feeding atm. This was just something I was curious about :happy:


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

:usa::usa::usa::usa::usa:


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## Celt (Dec 27, 2010)

I have fed food being very conscience of the number of calories (have a pup that needs to ingest a certain amount per day) and discovered that, at least for him, the quality doesn't affect how much you feed if the calories are the "same". The food "states" the number of calories per cup, then there are that many calories whether or not they are "good" is not what counts (at least for my boy), just that they provide for the energy needs


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