# Phosphorus/Calcium balance



## Sheltielover25 (Jan 18, 2011)

I just read last night about how when feeding a raw diet it's important to make sure the phosphorus/calcium ratio isn't out of balance and that calcium percentages should be a little more than the phosphorus level. First off, is this the case? Secondly, I went to the nutritional analysis website and plugged in (almost) everything I will be feeding mine this week for example and the phosphorus rate was a whole lot higher than calcium! Quite a bit higher. I feed bones about four times a week and this week that stems from chicken(drumsticks) and rabbit(thigh/foot). I do feed trout or smelt once a week but not sure how much their bones count. I also throw in a chicken foot on some days where beef heart is their main meal. They get liver every week and also kidney, spleen, or sweetbreads. Can anyone recommend some more ways of getting the calcium up and the phosphorous down(that don't include supplements? I tried adding more bone and such in on the website, but it seems impossible to get the calcium even close to level w/the phosphorus based on the food I'm feeding them now which is beef (tip steak, cheek, heart) pork (shoulder, various cuts) Rabbit (whole prey-minus organs) Chicken (drum sticks) Fish (smelt and trout) Organs (liver, kidney, and sweetbread-all beef right now). This week they are also getting duck gizzards/duck heart. I have access to a decent variety of meat, but not tripe as of right now unless I order it. Next week, instead of rabbit, I think it will be quail.

I suppose I should start trying to add the egg in now as the shell/whites seem like a good source of calcium. I am feeding two 7 month old pups so I want to be sure they are getting enough calcium.

This has started to concern me a bit!!

PS. i have three dogs total; two are about 15lbs and one is 20lbs just in case it will help you to offer suggestions as to what else to feed to increase the calcium.


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## RawFedDogs (Jun 16, 2008)

I never give it a 2nd thought. I feed a variety of animal parts from a variety of animals, period. I don't worry aobut arbitrary numbers. I don't feed numbers, I feed animal parts. I have never been concerned about balancing anything. Nature takes care of all that for me. 

This diet has worked for a million years without a single wolf or dog considering whether or not they were balancing their ca/ph. If you are concerned about not enough calcium, feed more bone. Frankly, almost all of us feeds much more bone than is needed. Bone only needs to be about 10% of the diet and its difficult to feed that little.


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## Sheltielover25 (Jan 18, 2011)

Maybe I just needed someone to tell me this, lol. I kept thinking in my head how can this be so unbalanced when this is how they'd eat naturally (not identical but, you know) I actually only fed bone every fourth meal but then I thought maybe I should take it up a notch to add more calcium for them. I also suppose I would need to do perhaps an overall month of feeding to determine a more adequate ratio, but then again, maybe I'll go back to ignoring the numbers and just feeding them a variety like I've been doing and their organs and bone as needed.


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## RaisingWolves (Mar 19, 2011)

It is my understanding that you only need to worry about the ratio of calcium/phosphorus in processed food. Artificial food and supplements can create growth problems if it is not properly balanced.


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## KlaMarie (Dec 30, 2010)

RaisingWolves said:


> It is my understanding that you only need to worry about the ratio of calcium/phosphorus in processed food. Artificial food and supplements can create growth problems if it is not properly balanced.


I agree, especially in large breed dogs. I've researced both raw and kibble for my GSD pup. Nothing I found/heard suggested any concerns with Ca/Phos ratios when feeding raw. It's just a concern when feeding kibble to large breed pups and dogs.


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## Sheltielover25 (Jan 18, 2011)

I hadn't read about this until just last night and I've done a lot of research also. The article I read was directly related to maintaining the ratio on a raw diet. I believe they were promoting, however, feeding percentages higher than 10% of bone-- which wouldn't work too well as my dogs don't need much bone. I'm going to go back to the every three meals and just throw in an egg once a week with shell.


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## BrownieM (Aug 30, 2010)

Why would calcium/phosphorus ratios apply to kibble but not raw? That doesn't seem logical to me. I think it is equally important to watch calcium/phosphorus ratios with a growing, large breed puppy when you are feeding kibble or raw. If you need to feed a little more than 10% bone to accomplish this, maybe that is what you should do. 

Humans have created these breeds and unfortunately because of our interference, many large breeds are prone to hip problems and other bone issues, especially if they grow too fast and do not develop properly. I would be careful about being so dismissive of calcium/phosphorus ratios...


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## sassymaxmom (Dec 7, 2008)

If you are using nutritiondata or USDA or the Canadian site or any other human nutritional site then the bone calcium content isn't allowed for, only the calcium in the meat such as it is.

Here are a few bony meat analysis. Raw Meaty Bones Analysis
If you figured out how to do menus on ND then figuring out how to enter these is another way to use the site. Take 100 grams as your unit and 20%=20 grams, .06%=60 mg and so on.

I put those in and the numbers come out perfect if I keep the bone content down. Remember kibble is very high in calcium and phosphorus, higher than NRC numbers, so don't worry about getting 10.00% bone into your dog. Just watch the poop - and meal size.

Max doesn't choose to eat the egg shell and I am glad about that, he doesn't need any more calcium.


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## RaisingWolves (Mar 19, 2011)

This is from "Grow Your Pup With Bones" by Dr. Billinghurst:

"There is not a complete explanation as to why bones do not cause these problems beyond the very obvious fact that they are nature's food for the dog, which means in scientific terms they are what the dog as a pup evolved to eat in order to grow its bones properly.

From a purely technical point of view however, we do have some explanations as to why raw meaty bones work so well. For example, a most important point is the fact that the calcium compounds in bone do not become attached to other minerals in the same way that cooked artificial forms of calcium do when commercial pet foods are produced. 

This means other minerals are not made unavailable because of the presence of calcium in the food as bone. A related factor is the chemical form of the calcium in bone. The organic form of calcium in the uncooked bone is nature's way of releasing the other minerals in the digestive tract instead of binding them and preventing their assimilation into your dog's body. In short this raw organic form of calcium is more likely to allow other minerals to be available rather than cause them to be unavailable.

Equally and possibly more important is that in this organic form, your pup's body is able to absorb only what it needs as opposed to the artificial soluble forms of calcium, where the body is actually forced to absorb more than it needs, leading to the problems I have already outlined. "


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## BrownieM (Aug 30, 2010)

Thank you, sassymaxmom, that makes sense. Calcium/phosphorus levels are still important regardless of what you feed and it is better for us to understand why and how we can provide the appropriate level through a raw diet rather than just accepting that it is perfect without seeing proof if its perfectness.

I love seeing numbers and proof that back up what I feed.

RaisingWolves, what you posted is helpful as well. It is clear that calc/phos are equally important in a raw diet but are available in a different way than in kibble. I believe it is important for us to read pieces of evidence like this rather than to just dismiss the idea without tangible reason.


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## RawFedDogs (Jun 16, 2008)

KlaMarie said:


> I agree, especially in large breed dogs. I've researced both raw and kibble for my GSD pup. Nothing I found/heard suggested any concerns with Ca/Phos ratios when feeding raw. It's just a concern when feeding kibble to large breed pups and dogs.


I raised a Great Dane puppy from 12 weeks until his present age of 6 years without regard to ca/ph in any way. I fed him PMR and exctly the same meals I fed my adults. Same parts, same volume from 12 weeks on. DaneMama is raising a Dane puppy on raw. I haven't heard of any problems her pup has had or any special diet she has him on.


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## Sheltielover25 (Jan 18, 2011)

sassymaxmom said:


> If you are using nutritiondata or USDA or the Canadian site or any other human nutritional site then the bone calcium content isn't allowed for, only the calcium in the meat such as it is.


Ahhhh! I'm so embarrassed, but I assumed since it listed it as raw it counted the item in its entirety. NOW it makes much more sense. I couldn't figure out why it was so off when I wasn't doing anything different than all the people on here who have never touched on this subject (well, not never, but ya know) This clears it all up.

Now I feel confident that if I do the 80%, 10%, 10% ratio that all will be met.


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## BrownieM (Aug 30, 2010)

RawFedDogs said:


> I raised a Great Dane puppy from 12 weeks until his present age of 6 years without regard to ca/ph in any way. I fed him PMR and exctly the same meals I fed my adults. Same parts, same volume from 12 weeks on. DaneMama is raising a Dane puppy on raw. I haven't heard of any problems her pup has had or any special diet she has him on.


RFD, a special diet may not be necessary, but understanding how and why a PMR diet fulfills these requirements is necessary for an educated, PMR feeder.


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## sassymaxmom (Dec 7, 2008)

RaisingWolves said:


> This is from "Grow Your Pup With Bones" by Dr. Billinghurst:
> 
> "There is not a complete explanation as to why bones do not cause these problems beyond the very obvious fact that they are nature's food for the dog, which means in scientific terms they are what the dog as a pup evolved to eat in order to grow its bones properly.
> 
> ...


I am not sure this is completely so. Monica Segal works with raw, home cooked and commercial diets and has helped a few dogs with problems related to excessive bone intake that apparently resulted in minerals being bound by excessive calcium intake.
Monica Segal January 2006 Newsletter


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## eternalstudent (Jul 22, 2010)

On a similar thread a little while ago I posted


eternalstudent said:


> I have been warned off raw from "experienced" large and giant breed owners as it will not provide enough calcium and to gives to much protein. There are plenty of threads on protein so I won't repeat as that was not the question asked . However, my rottie is fine on raw and everyone who looks at her seems impressed with how she has developed. And like those above we saw none of the scary growth spurts.
> 
> For calcium:
> Royal Canin (what I fed before raw) has 1.2 % calcium my pup should be getting 595 g per day which = 7.14 g or calcium.
> ...


For those of us that like numbers this should sum it up. From a completely chemical point of view you have to feed more phosphate, if interested I can go into more detail as to the why's of it. (This is a link to a table of calcium to phosphorus ratios phosphorus and calciu: Web Search Results from Answers.com if you wish to look at it)

In regards to pure calcium levels I was warned about over-feeding it by my vet who has unfortunately seen what happens when you supplement the raw diet with calcium powder, and the results are not good. 

The only reason to feed a dog large amounts of calcium is if you do not allow then outside very often and this will stave of the equivalent of rickets (sorry don't know the vet term for it but it might be the same as parno).

Overall I am with RFD here, feeding it as bone gives a real good ratio and leads as far as I can tell no problems . 

If I put my cynical hat on, I would say that as a commercial supplier of food I would want to tell you how important it is to give only a specific amount and then tell you that it is in this food (see this link for and example of my cynical world Phosphorus and Calcuim in Your Dog’s Diet |)


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## RaisingWolves (Mar 19, 2011)

eternalstudent said:


> *In regards to pure calcium levels I was warned about over-feeding it by my vet who has unfortunately seen what happens when you supplement the raw diet with calcium powder, and the results are not good. *
> 
> The only reason to feed a dog large amounts of calcium is if you do not allow then outside very often and this will stave of the equivalent of rickets (sorry don't know the vet term for it but it might be the same as parno).
> 
> ...


This is what I was told by several mastiff breeders who have raised several litters on raw. I was told to stay away from supplements, relax about the bone, and watch stools. 
I was making myself crazy with trying to figure if I had 10% bone.


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## RawFedDogs (Jun 16, 2008)

sassymaxmom said:


> I am not sure this is completely so. Monica Segal works with raw, home cooked and commercial diets and has helped a few dogs with problems related to excessive bone intake that apparently resulted in minerals being bound by excessive calcium intake.


Yeah, Monica has a good thing going and has had for a long time. She sells supplements, gives consultations ($275), puts on seminars, and sells books. 

If prey model raw worked as it should (and it does), poor old Monica would be out of a job. She MUST convince people it doesn't work or look for a real job. She has chose to convince people it doesn't work. Here comes my tired old saying again, "Be wary of information given by people who stand to make money from the decisions you make regarding that information." :smile:

*ETA:* The dog's body can handle varying amounts of calcium. It has methods for handling too much and too little.


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## DaneMama (Jun 27, 2008)

I haven't seen any issues with growth in any of my dogs, three Dane puppies raised on a well balanced raw diet. 

From what I have learned, researched and seen first hand is that you NEED to feed raw meaty bones...not just bones and not just meat. They NEED to be balanced with each other for the diet to be ideal. The calcium in the bones must be balanced by the phosphorus in the meat. Feed them together, in a regular schedule...doesn't have to be every meal, or day but needs to be a regular rotation. 

*Most* raw meaty bones are already well balanced CA ratio naturally. Some RMBs have more meat than bone and vice versa. But over time, they balance each other out. If one were to feed exclusively high bone content meals, there would be problems. If one were to feed not enough bone, other problems would occur.


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