# Can't get the weight off :(



## erinwagner (Aug 30, 2010)

I have a 2 year old male that has been on raw for 8 months....prior to that it was home cooked. He weighs 78 lbs. He's not fat but could stand to lose about 5 lbs. I can't see any ribs and I'd like to see a couple. The problem is.....he attends classes 2 nights per week...Agility and Obedience. We use cheese as treats. My husband also trains him every day so I have cut back his food intake to 1 lb per day on the days that he doesn't train and 1/2 lb per day on the days that he does train. Our trainer says not to feed him on the days we have class....but it's soooooooooooooooo hard. Any suggestions? He really only gets meat and bone and a small spoonful of either yogurt or cottage cheese. It's getting impossible to find any cuts of meat that weigh less than 1/2 lb that have any bone in them.  P.S......we've been at this "diet" for one month and he will not budge off of 78 lbs.


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## lauren43 (Feb 6, 2011)

Here are some things to think about:

1) Not all of your meals have to have bone in them (unless your dog can't handle boneless meals)
2) Try some less "fattening" treats--I have been using dehydrated beef, so its still raw meat, you can dehydrate just about any meat!
3) Fasting your dog one day will not hurt them, I promise..If he is getting food at class that may be enough to hold him over to the next day
4) I am not sure the cottage cheese or yogurt is necessary but that's up to you.


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## erinwagner (Aug 30, 2010)

Maybe I will lay off the cottage cheese and yogurt.....at least for awhile. It's such a small amount and I do include it in the weight of the meal. We have to use cheese (cubed)....required by trainer. It needs to roll across the floor as we are working on Open Utility, dumb bell retrieving, jumps, etc.


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## Filth (Oct 5, 2011)

If you feed him 5 meals a week of 1lbs and 2 meals of 1/2 lbs that would give 6lbs of food a week for a 78lbs dog. 

If this is correct and he is not losing any weight, then someone else is feeding him also, I'm sure. 

Feeding a lab with 6lbs per week is just too little. But not losing any weight is just confusing. I must be wrong somewhere 

What part of the day are you feeding him? And why feeding less on a training days, it just doesn't make any sense?


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## twoisplenty (Nov 12, 2008)

I think they are feeding less on training days because they are trying to factor in all the treats they use during training. In my way of thinking, your dog will need more food on training days as they need more energy and are burning more calories. Its like a human dieting, exercising like crazy but starving themselves. The body goes into shock and the metabolism slows right down.

If your dog is a couch potato and not very active he should be getting around 1.5lbs per day, if he is a very active dog he should be getting up to 2.25lbs per day. And that is all based on a 75lb dog.

I agree with filth, something just doesnt add up. Instead of decreasing your dogs food intake, I would focus on increasing his exercise amounts. How much exercise does your dog get on a daily basis? I would also look into dehydrating bits of meat as training rewards instead of cheese


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## JayJayisme (Aug 2, 2009)

Believe it or not, the lactose in even those small amounts of dairy products could be triggering enough of an insulin response to account for the persistent extra weight. Adult dogs shouldn't eat dairy to begin with due to the absence of the enzyme lactase in their digestive tract. But the milk sugar just adds another layer to the problem. Get rid of all the dairy and keep your portions under control, and those 5 lbs will come off. As suggested, try to find a meat-based treat. Even cooked meat is better than dairy.


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## eternalstudent (Jul 22, 2010)

If ever i think that I have overfed Becka she just gets a days food dropped. So far it has done her no harm  although she does look longingly at me until she realises that it is just not happening today.

I have to agree with Filth though. I have an 80lb dog and we feed (including treats) an average of 14 lbs a week. If you are only feeding half this and not loosing weight something else is happening. What I don't know???????

I use dried liver and heart as treats. I make sure the treats are no more than 1/8th inch square sometimes smaller, but only if I am feeling really good when cutting them up. This way it is almost impossible for the treats to have an impact on her diet.


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## Scarlett_O' (May 19, 2011)

JayJayisme said:


> Believe it or not, the lactose in even those small amounts of dairy products could be triggering enough of an insulin response to account for the persistent extra weight. Adult dogs shouldn't eat dairy to begin with due to the absence of the enzyme lactase in their digestive tract. But the milk sugar just adds another layer to the problem. Get rid of all the dairy and keep your portions under control, and those 5 lbs will come off. As suggested, try to find a meat-based treat. Even cooked meat is better than dairy.


This was my thought EXACTLY! I know when Brody gets into the Taco cheese...cause Daddy "accidentally" drops some every day on the weeks that we have tacos then he gets BIG...FAST! Doesnt matter how much I feed him he gains...I know its cause of the cheese!!

So here is another saying PULL AWAY FROM THE DAIRY!!! LOL :biggrin:


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## Ivy (Mar 16, 2011)

erinwagner said:


> Maybe I will lay off the cottage cheese and yogurt.....at least for awhile. It's such a small amount and I do include it in the weight of the meal. We have to use cheese (cubed)....required by trainer. It needs to roll across the floor as we are working on Open Utility, dumb bell retrieving, jumps, etc.



Maybe you can dehydrate some meat shaped as cubes to replace the cheese. That and it will count as organs, kill two birds with one stone. :smile:


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## Unosmom (May 3, 2009)

Have you done bloodwork on your dog to make sure its not health related such as hypothyroidism?


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## erinwagner (Aug 30, 2010)

Thanks everyone......I will totally cut out the yogurt and cottage cheese. Our trainer insists on cheese or summer sausage but the cheese has got to be part of it because the summer sausage is the same color as the training mats so when they are using it for a lure on marking and jumping it has to be easy for the dog to see. She's a real stickler on the cheese thing. And yes....he is about as active as a lab could be....he attends daycare twice per week for 12 hours per day, he goes to the cabin on weekends and it's on 10 acres in the woods so we hike and play outside all day long. He trains two nights per week for 2 hours at a crack and gets at least one walk per day...sometimes two. The other problem with the treats is that they are to come from the mouth (to build attention and focus on the handler)....so obviously cheese and summer sausage make the most sense as if I'm going to fill my mouth with treats they darn well better taste good in case I swallow them. I'll have to investigate some other form of lighter colored meat....maybe chicken...that has been dehydrated. Funny....I spend more time preparing meals for my dog than my husband....lol.


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## erinwagner (Aug 30, 2010)

Yes...just had a full panel last month....totally healthy....vet says he looks amazing but trainer says....and I agree....he could stand to loose 5 pounds.


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## Liz (Sep 27, 2010)

I understand about the treats in the mouth. We do that for attention work especially. I dehydrate chicken breast in tiny chunks and it doesn't taste bad at all, juts be sure to dehydrate fully so it isn't greasy. I have one collie who had a difficult time losing weight. If I were in your place I would drop all dairy and my girl was fed lot of lung as it was a lean meat - I remove all attached fat. She also got poultry and lean pork. She finally started losing weight. She went from 63 pounds to 47 and looks fantastic - she is 7 and now moves and looks 2 or 3. It did take about 6 months but she had a lot more to lose than your pup does.:wink:


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

well, my suggestion would be to 

1. stop using cheese as treats. you'd be surprised how fast they gain on that.

2. cut out the yoghurt and cottage cheese, even the spoon ful counts.

3. you can feed any cut of boneless and add a piece of bony chicken or pork rib any rib for a lab....

get a scale....

and feed him 17 oz per day....and that includes the treats....

it's those extras......

what other exercise does he get?


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## erinwagner (Aug 30, 2010)

I will get a dehydrator and start doing the chicken breasts. I know it's the extras....I'm sure on a training class day he eats at least 1-2 pounds of cheese which is why I only feed him 8 oz in the morning that day. He get's lots of exercise....as I said, daycare twice per week, 2 days per week he has a 2 hour training class, one of them is agility, he gets walked once per day minimum...sometimes twice and runs like a maniac at the cabin every weekend. He lives for treats  I will feel better about not feeding anything but the treats on training day if I switch to chicken. It should be evidence to our trainer that my husband does his homework and works the dog each day (3 times)....all she has to do is look at his non existent ribs.


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## leilaquinn (Sep 7, 2011)

I'm still struggling with this problem too. Luigi is currently 78 lbs, I would like to see him around 72 lbs (vet agreed a few weeks ago. Blood panel was perfect, no thyroid problem, etc. I am currently feeding him around 1 lb a day, not including treats. on days when we do a lot of training i might cut it down to 3/4 lb, or if it's really bad weather and he is getting a marrow bone (he sucks and licks the marrow out, doesn't chew them) or a stuffed kong instead of his ussual long walks/ jogs/ hikes to keep him busy. My vet was out of town the last time we were in, but the vet we saw said that just like people, some dogs are just very thrifty with the calories they consume (I know i'm still adjusting to this being more the case for me than it was when I was 22, super skinny and having pizza and beer for dinner 5 nights a week) 
Going form 1 1/4- 1 1/2 lbs a day to around 1 has gotten him from 82 lbs to his current weight, it's coming off slowly, but that's fine with me. I only use freeze dried liver (beef, bison and venison) as training treats, but Luigi is still in need of a LOT of training, so even a low fat treat adds up. I also give him a beef rib most nights when we are all trying to settle down, or a small bully stick, etc. He needs to work on something laying down to transition from crazy dog to sleepy dog. 
Luigi gets two longish walks (1-2 miles?) and one shorter one first thing in the am during the week. we also play lots of tug in the house, and he plays fetch up and down a staircase (he LOVES this) every night. On the weekends we take long hikes where he can really run, and he goes most places with us. I think metabolism is funny, the hyperactive, never sit still dog might not be the one burning calories quickly. 
Good luck!


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## twoisplenty (Nov 12, 2008)

erinwagner said:


> .I'm sure on a training class day he eats at least 1-2 pounds of cheese


Holy cow!! What are you training for?


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## Filth (Oct 5, 2011)

There are many kinds of cheese. White cow and goat cheese that we use is just not what you guys think of. We all feed it more then this dog gets in through treats, and no one every had problems with losing weight. 

I honestly think that your dog has some health problems. It seems to me that it might be hormonal. A 78lbs dog just cannot be not losing weight with 7 or 8lbs of food a week. He would lose 5 lbs a week even if he did not move from the couch. That is just too little food for his organism. If you add all the exercises he gets, it just doesn't make any sense. Talking about 2 or 3 lbs of cheese a week which keeps dog fat and not losing weight is just silly. 

78lbs dog should not eat less then 1,5-2lbs a day. Feeding him 1/2 lbs a day can cause much bigger health problems than overweight is. Don't mess with that, it is a serious thing. Get his meals back to 1,5+ lbs, and make him lose some weight other way. The easiest thing to do is to starve a dog. Stop with that. Expose him to more exercise, provide him more activity. Make him train more times a week, work with him, take him to the longer walks. You said he goes out once a day, that is not enough. Longer walks two times a day, hiking in the woods few times a week, 2 or 3 hard trainings, more exercise on a daily basis, do ball retrieval every day, etc. and he will lose some weight. That is the natural way, the way that will result in a lighter dog with muscular and nicely shaped body. Feed him early in the morning that he can burn some calories during the day. Don't expose him to any kind of exercise at least 2 hours after the meal. Same amount of food every day, no matter if he has training or not. Limit treats to 1lbs a training.

What you can use as a treat is dehydrated chicken breasts. Just put them in the oven and keep it until it is fully dehydrated. Same thing with beef liver. If you feed beef liver 2 or 3 times a week as a treat you won't need any more of it in a diet.


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## eternalstudent (Jul 22, 2010)

erinwagner said:


> I will get a dehydrator and start doing the chicken breasts. I know it's the extras....*I'm sure on a training class day he eats at least 1-2 pounds of cheese* which is why I only feed him 8 oz in the morning that day. He get's lots of exercise....as I said, daycare twice per week, 2 days per week he has a 2 hour training class, one of them is agility, he gets walked once per day minimum...sometimes twice and runs like a maniac at the cabin every weekend. He lives for treats  I will feel better about not feeding anything but the treats on training day if I switch to chicken. It should be evidence to our trainer that my husband does his homework and works the dog each day (3 times)....all she has to do is look at his non existent ribs.


Can I be your dog please. 4 lbs of cheese a week would put me in seventh heaven, I would say though that cheese is mostly fat where as meat is mostly water, so a 1lb of cheese is might be more of less the same protein content of meat (about 30 %) but it is 60 - 70 % animal fat so is a massive calorific load.

I do have to ask why so much. 

If you are using it as a lure, can you not use something that is smelly and seen to be put somewhere. That is what we are told to do.

The best lure I have found is thin strips of dehydrated beef heart. I also sprinkle a little bit of garlic powder on it before drying it out as this makes it smell really strong. As for putting in the mouth, beef heart jerky is fantastic and is something that I take with me when I go up in the hills. 

If you do make heart jerky just remember to trim off all the fat before drying out otherwise it can take days to get a good consistency rather than crispy!


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## lauren43 (Feb 6, 2011)

@filth--If a you can be under feeding a dog, can you over feed a dog? If you have to feed double or more of the recommended amount is that too much? When do you decide too little is too little?

Avery eats nearly 2lbs of meat a day, he only weighs 50lbs..so thats 3% of his body weight. I believe Annie Linsey's dog eats something like 7% of her body weight..then there are plenty of dogs one here who weigh quite a bit more than Avery but eat less than he does.

Also assuming the dog in question is a lab, we were just talking about this in another thread, they become overweight easily...


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## Filth (Oct 5, 2011)

lauren43 said:


> When do you decide too little is too little?


I decide by looking at my dog and judging how it looks. If it is skinny you should increase his/her meals, if it looks fat you should decrease it. But there are some limits that can't be broken. If a lab looks fat and needs to lose some weight, you can decrease his food to 1.5lbs a day(at least that much). Going under that is just too risky, and can cause many other problems. There are different metabolisms, there are different levels of activity, there are different kinds of meat...but there is not a lab that eats 1/2lbs a day. If it does and still keeping the same weight, something is wrong! I don't understand are you guys aware of how much food is 6lbs a week?! A dog eating that much will collapse on a first training. 



lauren43 said:


> Also assuming the dog in question is a lab, we were just talking about this in another thread, they become overweight easily...


Yes, when they actually eat. I had a golden retriever, there is no need to explain those stuff to me.


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## KittyKat (Feb 11, 2011)

Filth said:


> I decide by looking at my dog and judging how it looks. If it is skinny you should increase his/her meals, if it looks fat you should decrease it. But there are some limits that can't be broken. If a lab looks fat and needs to lose some weight, you can decrease his food to 1.5lbs a day(at least that much). Going under that is just too risky, and can cause many other problems. There are different metabolisms, there are different levels of activity, there are different kinds of meat...but there is not a lab that eats 1/2lbs a day. If it does and still keeping the same weight, something is wrong! I don't understand are you guys aware of how much food is 6lbs a week?! A dog eating that much will collapse on a first training.


1/2 is too little... thats less then what my Whippet gets... and as you are all aware, whippets are skinny. She weighs a bit under 30lbs, far less then this dog here. 

I think however, that the massive (holy cow) amount of cheese they are giving is sending the dog into the fatty fat fat category. Cut that cheese and give the dog the 1lb they normally eat and they should be okay. Cheese does not a balanced diet make.


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## erinwagner (Aug 30, 2010)

Filth, not sure if you read any of my previous thread before answering......I stated the exercise the dog gets...his day yesterday consisted of a 4:00 AM walk, on to daycare at 6:30 AM until 5:30 PM...advanced healing class for one hour, dumb bell and open utility and jumps for 1/2 hour and Agility for 1.5 hours. He ate 1/2 lb for breakfast because I knew he would be consuming about 2 lbs in treats (cheese and sausage) later that day....which I'm sure he did and probably even exceeded during training. I also stated that he had a full blood profile and that was normal....he is a healthy dog. What I was looking for were alternatives to the cheese for training treats that would fit with the requirements called out by my trainer. Thanks to all that did take the time to read my question and respond with helpful ideas. I have stopped the cottage cheese and the yogurt. I am going to try the dehydrated chicken breasts....as I don't think I can get myself to put dehydrated liver in my mouth.


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## lauren43 (Feb 6, 2011)

erinwagner said:


> Filth, not sure if you read any of my previous thread before answering......I stated the exercise the dog gets...his day yesterday consisted of a 4:00 AM walk, on to daycare at 6:30 AM until 5:30 PM...advanced healing class for one hour, dumb bell and open utility and jumps for 1/2 hour and Agility for 1.5 hours. He ate 1/2 lb for breakfast because I knew he would be consuming about 2 lbs in treats (cheese and sausage) later that day.


I think you exercise your dog quite a bit, definitely more than I do.
I fast Avery before class to ensure hes hungry when were working. He does get a full meal after as well, as he refuses to gain any weight.



erinwagner said:


> as I don't think I can get myself to put dehydrated liver in my mouth.


LOL me either bleck!


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## Scarlett_O' (May 19, 2011)

Ill just throw this out there, I use boiled heart for treats....I have no problem with it in my mouth, I tend to be able to break it up more easily and the doggies LOVE it!!!:wink:


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## Atila (Oct 15, 2011)

Stupid question from my part maybe, but why are you giving food as a reward at all? I've done advanced obedience training class with my GSD, are part of our clubs agility section and are preparing for obedience trial at this moment. Except for the very, very beginnings in our obedience training when we used food, our reward is primaly a toy or a game of tug of war. Without food, especialy in your mouth, your dog gets better focus, since its a real focus and not just eyeing the food and you get the speed in agility.

P.S. I'm overwight myself and just few days ago went to see a specialist and talk about my feeding habits. I eat healthy, no fat, no oils, lots of veggies and fruits etc. and she told me to cut dairy product completly. It's full of calories. And I haven't even been eating dairy that much - 1/2 l milk daily, 0,2 l of yoghurt, maybe 10dkg of cheese top but it seems it's too much. The doc was actually quite optimistic in loosing 10-14 kg in the next 6 months based on cutting dairy only and keeping my diet and excersise as before.


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## erinwagner (Aug 30, 2010)

Atila said:


> Stupid question from my part maybe, but why are you giving food as a reward at all? I've done advanced obedience training class with my GSD, are part of our clubs agility section and are preparing for obedience trial at this moment. Except for the very, very beginnings in our obedience training when we used food, our reward is primaly a toy or a game of tug of war. Without food, especialy in your mouth, your dog gets better focus, since its a real focus and not just eyeing the food and you get the speed in agility.
> 
> P.S. I'm overwight myself and just few days ago went to see a specialist and talk about my feeding habits. I eat healthy, no fat, no oils, lots of veggies and fruits etc. and she told me to cut dairy product completly. It's full of calories. And I haven't even been eating dairy that much - 1/2 l milk daily, 0,2 l of yoghurt, maybe 10dkg of cheese top but it seems it's too much. The doc was actually quite optimistic in loosing 10-14 kg in the next 6 months based on cutting dairy only and keeping my diet and excersise as before.


Just the way we were taught....it's mainly for things that are new to him. Not so much for things he is expected to know by now. We just happen to be in a couple of classes that are teaching him new skills at the moment. I will ask that at our next class...maybe we could at least lay off the treats with our in home training.


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

filth, i can't say for sure, but i'm thinking we're talking about processed cheese here....

i don't understand how a trainer can be so hardnosed as to what type of treat is given. especially if it's around 2 lbs per training session.

if it's processed cheese, then it's just empty calories.


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

Filth said:


> There are many kinds of cheese. White cow and goat cheese that we use is just not what you guys think of. We all feed it more then this dog gets in through treats, and no one every had problems with losing weight.
> 
> I honestly think that your dog has some health problems. It seems to me that it might be hormonal. A 78lbs dog just cannot be not losing weight with 7 or 8lbs of food a week. He would lose 5 lbs a week even if he did not move from the couch. That is just too little food for his organism. If you add all the exercises he gets, it just doesn't make any sense. Talking about 2 or 3 lbs of cheese a week which keeps dog fat and not losing weight is just silly.
> 
> ...


filth....i think you're right. we are not talking about the same kinds of cheese....i think this dog is getting summer sausage and processed cheese which is basically junk food. if that's the case, then it's no wonder five pounds were gained.


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## JayJayisme (Aug 2, 2009)

Atila said:


> I eat healthy, no fat, no oils, lots of veggies and fruits etc...


If you don't eat fat, specifically saturated animal fat, your body will make it and store it. If you eat a lot of fruit (i.e. fructose), you are providing the fuel for fat production and storage. It has nothing to do with calories. Aside from the recommendation to eliminate dairy, your doctor is wrong and is following very outdated "calories in-calories out" principles. Eat meat, animal fat, vegetables, and limited fruit, and you will lose weight. You don't need to count calories. The problem with dairy is lactose (sugar), not calories.


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## Atila (Oct 15, 2011)

JayJayisme said:


> If you don't eat fat, specifically saturated animal fat, your body will make it and store it. If you eat a lot of fruit (i.e. fructose), you are providing the fuel for fat production and storage. It has nothing to do with calories. Aside from the recommendation to eliminate dairy, your doctor is wrong and is following very outdated "calories in-calories out" principles. Eat meat, animal fat, vegetables, and limited fruit, and you will lose weight. You don't need to count calories. The problem with dairy is lactose (sugar), not calories.


When I mean fat, then I mean extra fat meat products like sausages and like. I do not eat too much fruit, 2 times a day instead of cake or snacks an apple or orange etc. I eat a meat meal 4-5 days a week and make sure it's made without oil. Only oil I use is homemade olive oil, and that as a dressing for salads and such. Thanks for clarification of dairy 'calories', tough. It makes more sense now.


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## DaneMama (Jun 27, 2008)

Atila said:


> Stupid question from my part maybe, but why are you giving food as a reward at all? I've done advanced obedience training class with my GSD, are part of our clubs agility section and are preparing for obedience trial at this moment. Except for the very, very beginnings in our obedience training when we used food, our reward is primaly a toy or a game of tug of war. Without food, especialy in your mouth, your dog gets better focus, since its a real focus and not just eyeing the food and you get the speed in agility.


I think food is used for motivation because that is what particularly motivates this dog. Obviously since he's a chunky monkey! 

I prefer using a game, toy, attention, etc as reward than food, just because it teaches the dog that there are more things out there that are valuable other than food plus it increases MY value to the dog. BUT that doesn't mean that EVERY dog will be motivated by attention. Finding the right motivation for each dog out there is VERY important to training! Absolutely nothing wrong with having a food motivated dog :wink: 

Side note: I'm not a fan of food being in your mouth. Because they know you have food there and will only focus on that...not on you. This is called a "prompting" which people are very good at (ie sticking your hand in the treat pouch in anticipation of a "sit") but should get out of the habit! The trick is to get them to look at you without any word or cue, then "click" and reward without a prompting.


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## Atila (Oct 15, 2011)

DaneMama said:


> IThe trick is to get them to look at you without any word or cue, then "click" and reward without a prompting.


That's the focus I'm talking about. :biggrin1:


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## KittyKat (Feb 11, 2011)

Another thing to note here... always treating/rewarding the dog isn't a good thing behaviour wise. For right new behaviours its great as continuous reinforcement creates a strong connection between the stimulus and the reinforcer(good boy or yes or w/e)/reward (treat) - but once the dog has learned the trick you should switch to a variable ratio method to ensure responses continue without constant rewards.

2lbs alone seems like a lot on any given day (as the reward should be small if you are giving it consistently) let alone every day of the week. I would talk to the trainer about this constant stuffing of food.... because thats more then she would be fed in a given day.


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## Caty M (Aug 13, 2010)

How much do you give at each reward? I only give a TEENY amount, like the size of a cat kibble, to my dog. Just enough to taste. She does quite a bit of training, too, and she doesn't gain weight from how little I give her. Maybe 100g per session, and that's around 100 treats.

Atila/Jayjay, I think it depends what kind of fruits, also. Some like blackberries, raspberries contain more grams of fibre per serving than sugar and I don't think you need to limit those. Some, like watermelon, are very high in sugar and glycemic load.

By the way- Erin were you on america's next top model? LOL I think I remember someone with the same name being on that.


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## jdatwood (Apr 13, 2009)

In my experience the SIZE of each training treat given by most people is WAY too big. Most training treats can and should be broken down into smaller pieces.

You want the treat just large enough so your dog can "taste" that they were treated. That's it. Anything larger that they have to chew slows down the entire process.

Here's an example I just took a picture of really quickly. 

The treat on the left is a Zuke's training treat straight from the bag.

A penny in the middle for size comparison

Proper size of a training treat pinched off the Zuke's treat on the right.












At 2lbs of cheese per training session it sounds like your treats are WAAAAAY too big. NO dog should go through 2lbs of treats in a session. We can do a 1-2 hour training session using 1/2 to 2/3 a cup of properly sized treats.


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## Tobi (Mar 18, 2011)

jdatwood said:


> In my experience the SIZE of each training treat given by most people is WAY too big. Most training treats can and should be broken down into smaller pieces.
> 
> You want the treat just large enough so your dog can "taste" that they were treated. That's it. Anything larger that they have to chew slows down the entire process.
> 
> ...


well!! At least i can say that we weren't only using teeny pieces like that because i'm kinda cheap :lol:


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## Filth (Oct 5, 2011)

jdatwood said:


> NO dog should go through 2lbs of treats in a session.


Exactly. And no dog should eat that 2lbs of cheese for a whole day. Think about the diet which has two days of just cheese...

I read all of your posts. What I would suggest you is to get his food back to normal. Don't know what amount does "normal meal" means to you, but labs here eat minimum 2lbs a day. Diana M.'s(she wrote on a raw section earlier) lab never ate less then a 3lbs in one day, and it looks fantastic. However, I would feed him not less then 1,5lbs a day. Dog in training needs a lot of energy throughout the day and should not eat less than that. Replace cheese white dehydrated chicken and continue with exercises he already has. In that way he will lose some weight, but still stay looking good. Feeding him 6lbs a week with that much exercise will probably get him in health problems. Also if you feed him normally on a training days you will be able to cut the treats down(which you should do).


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## erinwagner (Aug 30, 2010)

Not sure if the pics will work but our instructions for treat cutting are attached. Obviously way more than most of you are recommending and obviously way more than my dog needs given the circumstances. They also preach to keep your dog lean so I'm going to have to start cutting back. We are weaning away from so many treats but this is a young dog that is doing amazing things so far and yes....he is VERY food motivated. He is also very play motivated but unfortunately that can sometimes get you into trouble in the ring....as obviously you cannot play there. The treats in the mouth keep his attention and focus on me and keep him with me in the ring. I will admit though....he is catching on to the fact that nothing falls from my mouth when we are in the ring. He's not your typical "fat" lab and even the vet said he looked great....he's just a little heavier than I'd like him to be. Thanks for all the tips and I guess I'll just have to take the crap I get from my trainer when she looks at the "shrinking" size of my treats. Hopefully soon this will also result in the shrinking size of my lab....lol.


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## KittyKat (Feb 11, 2011)

jdatwood said:


> A penny in the middle for size comparison
> 
> Proper size of a training treat pinched off the Zuke's treat on the right.
> 
> ...


Yup that size is what our trainer suggested.


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## Scarlett_O' (May 19, 2011)

erinwagner said:


> View attachment 4900
> View attachment 4901
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> 
> Not sure if the pics will work but our instructions for treat cutting are attached. Obviously way more than most of you are recommending and obviously way more than my dog needs given the circumstances. They also preach to keep your dog lean so I'm going to have to start cutting back. We are weaning away from so many treats but this is a young dog that is doing amazing things so far and yes....he is VERY food motivated. He is also very play motivated but unfortunately that can sometimes get you into trouble in the ring....as obviously you cannot play there. The treats in the mouth keep his attention and focus on me and keep him with me in the ring. I will admit though....he is catching on to the fact that nothing falls from my mouth when we are in the ring. He's not your typical "fat" lab and even the vet said he looked great....he's just a little heavier than I'd like him to be. Thanks for all the tips and I guess I'll just have to take the crap I get from my trainer when she looks at the "shrinking" size of my treats. Hopefully soon this will also result in the shrinking size of my lab....lol.


Good for you for being willing to back off for the health of your pup....that much fat is NOT good for him, no matter if he isnt the typical "fat lab" or not!

And, as far as the trainer giving you grief....well she can suck it up and realize that you are doing what is best for your dog!
We had a trainer, who among other things that I didnt like, would try to shove cheese in both of our boys, it ticked me off to no end! What made me the happiest is Rhett wouldn't touch it...he looked at me for the heart and would TOTALLY ignore her!LOL ANYWAYS....there ARE ways around those nasty treats, I didnt allow ANY of it(hot dogs and cheese where her thing, and we had JUST gotten rid of a skin thing with Leo because of cooked chicken treats) they got heart and liver, which I made for them....NO processed foods around here!!:wink:


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

wow. that there is some cheese, my friend. 

just cut that part out and i guarantee your dog will lose weight.....wow.

we don't give treats usually.
bubba is a little too food motivated and it becomes all about the food for him, rather than the task at hand....

they are on the treadmill right now and they haven't figured out, that for the moment,

they are merely getting 'as a reward' ----- their daily liver or organ dose.....

it's bigger, but they aren't in training...they are just getting used to the treadmill...

and it's an incentive, since bubba's not used to the treadmill and malia doesn't care for it....

to the trainer, it's a big screw you and your regimented reward requirements. how much do his dogs weigh?


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## erinwagner (Aug 30, 2010)

She has 3 and none of them is overweight....that picture is 3 lbs and 3 days worth of treats. In addition to the fact that my dog is too heavy....my pocket book is too light...lol. Thank goodness for Costco.


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## Liz (Sep 27, 2010)

Wow, think of how much you will save buying so much less cheese. I have a younster here who is very food motivated - we can go through he sessions with two strips of jerky - homemade. If I give him too much he looses focus on me. Reward is great butpersonally I want my dogs to work because they love what they are doing and the y treats here and there are a perk for jobs well done. We phase treats out pretty fast. Your dog is lovely byt he way, very expressive eyes


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