# Sorry to be a pain...



## spookychick13 (Jan 26, 2010)

But I'm looking for some advice.

Flip and Jack are on Orijen in the evenings (I recently bought new bags, doh!) and Flip gets a raw Stella and Chewy's patty in the morning for breakfast.

I am OUT Of Stella and Chewy's as of this morning, and rather than spend $25.00 on another bag, should I start him on raw chicken backs or necks or quarters in the morning? I want to finish the kibble in the evening because frankly it was expensive!

Any ideas/advice?
I wanted to wait until I got some raw feeding books to start, but...I may as well do it I suppose?

Flip is 40lbs and 10 months old, not sure what would be the best thing to start him on.


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## malluver1005 (Nov 15, 2009)

spookychick13 said:


> I am OUT Of Stella and Chewy's as of this morning, and rather than spend $25.00 on another bag, should I start him on raw chicken backs or necks or quarters in the morning? I want to finish the kibble in the evening because frankly it was expensive!


I would just start him on chicken backs in the morning and the evening. Before I started raw, I also had a lot of kibble left. Some wonderful raw feeders on here told me to donate it to a shelter, and I did. Those dogs need it more. And it was Evo, also expensive!



spookychick13 said:


> Any ideas/advice?
> I wanted to wait until I got some raw feeding books to start, but...I may as well do it I suppose?


I don't have any books. There really is nothing to it once you start. And you can always come here and ask away.



spookychick13 said:


> Flip is 40lbs and 10 months old, not sure what would be the best thing to start him on.


I would start him on backs. I think chicken necks might be too small...


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## RawFedDogs (Jun 16, 2008)

Yes to everything malluver said. :smile:


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## spookychick13 (Jan 26, 2010)

What about leg quarters?

Can I just ask the butcher for backs?


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## malluver1005 (Nov 15, 2009)

spookychick13 said:


> What about leg quarters?
> 
> Can I just ask the butcher for backs?


I have Aspen on quarters in the evenings and he did perfectly fine in the beginning. You can try asking the butcher for backs.


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## lovinmylabs (Jan 5, 2010)

I was in the same boat...I know how you feel.

I also donated 1/2 of EVO to a shelter thanks to the advice from these wonderful people.

I started with nothing but chicken backs for the am and pm feedings. I ordered these from a local butcher. $20 for 40 LBs.

As for reading books...I agree 100% with what was said....the people on here are experienced and very knowledgable....they are better then any book because as soon as you have questions someone is always at the other end of your computer waiting to help you!! 

I say give it a try...you wont regret it and your doggies will be forever greatful...you wallet will be too!!:wink: GOOD LUCK!


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## DaneMama (Jun 27, 2008)

I am so happy to hear that we are albe to help so many people out on here. It really does make my day to see that people are happy for our help! Its even better that its just something that we all enjoy doing anyways :biggrin:

As far as books go...I would recommend getting these two...at the very least. I have been raw feeding for a long time now and have just NOW gotten around to reading the books LOL. But I do recommend reading them, there is always room to learn something new and increase your knowledge. So everyone here can be just as confident and knowledgeable to the point where they feel comfortable to walk some newbie through every step in the process! You can all see from malluver1005 how confident she already is with giving advice. Keep up the great work :wink:

Here are the two books that I recommend you read. "Work Wonders" is kinda the raw for dummies version and "Raw Meaty Bones" is the sciency version. Both are wonderful...I own both. They are both written by the wonderful Dr. Tom Lonsdale and are very affordable on Amazon...

Amazon.com: Work Wonders: Feed Your Dog Raw Meaty Bones (9780975717400): Tom Lonsdale: Books

I've thought about buying like 10 copies of Work Wonders to hand out to friends and family to read through if they are interested, on temporary loan of course! Just anything to help spread the word!!!

Amazon.com: Raw Meaty Bones Promote Health (9780646396248): Tom Lonsdale: Books


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## spookychick13 (Jan 26, 2010)

I ordered the 'Work Wonders' book and this one as well:
Amazon.com: Raw Dog Food: Make It Easy for You and Your Dog (9781929242092): Carina Beth Macdonald: Books


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## DaneMama (Jun 27, 2008)

^^^ Hmmm...well you will get a differing opinion from that book and from Lonsdale's books. That book follows the BARF diet, not the PMR diet like the others do. BARF includes fruits and veggies and other things, whereas the PMR diet is nothing but raw meats, bones and organs (which is what MOST of us do on here).

I have heard from Jem that this book is not as helpful as the others, but it doesn't hurt to read up on all different aspects of a raw diet.


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## CorgiPaws (Mar 31, 2009)

spookychick13 said:


> I am OUT Of Stella and Chewy's as of this morning, and rather than spend $25.00 on another bag, should I start him on raw chicken backs or necks or quarters in the morning?


I personally started my dogs on quarters, because they are readily avaliable, so I didn't have to do any special ordering or anything. I like the quarters because they aren't as fatty as backs. I always cut the faty parts/ some of the skin off when starting to avoid loose stools. With backs, I feel like there's more to throw away. But, either way, it's better than the pre made or kibble, so you can't loose. 



spookychick13 said:


> I want to finish the kibble in the evening because frankly it was expensive!


Understandable. I finished my Boxer's Innova before going raw, our shelter won't accept opened bags, and no one I knew wanted it. *shrug* 



spookychick13 said:


> I wanted to wait until I got some raw feeding books to start, but...I may as well do it I suppose?


IMO, MOST raw books will be useless because most of them are in support of a BARF diet and do nothing but controdict the fact that dogs are carnivores. 
I prefer a forum like this one, that can answer questions directly, and be interactive, rather than a book that leaves you questioning things. But you have to do whatever you are most comfortable with. :biggrin:



spookychick13 said:


> Flip is 40lbs and 10 months old, not sure what would be the best thing to start him on.


2-3% of his ideal adult body weight. bone-in chicken only for the first two weeks. Which cut you pick is unimportant really. I'd go with whatever is readily avaliable and affordable. 

I love new people with lots of questions! Gives me something to do. lol:tongue:


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## spookychick13 (Jan 26, 2010)

Yes, one of my friends told me to get that book to help with the 'courage' aspect. 


The pet store just gave me whole duck necks.


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## spookychick13 (Jan 26, 2010)

I love this forum, just saying. 

I think I am going to start Flip (the standard poodle) on chicken quarters and Jack the Cav on drumsticks then.


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## DaneMama (Jun 27, 2008)

spookychick13 said:


> I love this forum, just saying.
> 
> I think I am going to start Flip (the standard poodle) on chicken quarters and Jack the Cav on drumsticks then.


Woot!! I love this forum too :biggrin:

Glad that you are going to take the plunge! Keep us posted.


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## CorgiPaws (Mar 31, 2009)

spookychick13 said:


> I love this forum, just saying.
> 
> I think I am going to start Flip (the standard poodle) on chicken quarters and Jack the Cav on drumsticks then.


Yayy, keep us posted, and I'm glad you're enjoying it here. 

TIP: quarters tend to be much cheaper per pound than packaged drumsticks, at least here they are. For my smaller dog, I still buy the quarters, and just cut them in half with kitchen scissors (Mine are Kitchen Aid, I think I paid like $8 for them) and give a drumstick for a meal, and the thigh for another.


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## spookychick13 (Jan 26, 2010)

Thanks for the great tip, I bought a 'kitchen shears' and leg quarters over lunch.
I checked for sodium content and we're good to go!


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## jdatwood (Apr 13, 2009)

Sheesh, you girls have been busy today. I guess it's all been said really... 

Congrats on making the move! You won't regret it


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## spookychick13 (Jan 26, 2010)

We are pretty much dead at work. :/

Should I expect any loose stools this weekend?


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## CorgiPaws (Mar 31, 2009)

spookychick13 said:


> We are pretty much dead at work. :/
> 
> Should I expect any loose stools this weekend?


Hit or miss. If you see any, just trim the skin off, and that should do the trick.

My corgi had a flawless transition. My boxer had to have the skin trimmed off for a couple days.


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## DaneMama (Jun 27, 2008)

spookychick13 said:


> We are pretty much dead at work. :/


Ha! Me too LOL...wish I could be at home cuz I have SO much to do... 



> Should I expect any loose stools this weekend?


Yes. Expect the worst but hope for the best. If you do see diarrhea, its no big deal. This is normal. Most people freak out a lot when they see diarrhea, but you have to know that this is a normal body function, and if your dog is still eating and drinking water there really is no concern and it should clear up on its own.

Make sure that when you are starting out that you provide bone heavy meals, because bone is what firms up their stools and in the beginning more bone is better than less. Chicken quarters are a good mix of meat to bone ratio but you might find yourself having to cut some of the muscle meat off of a quarter to get a higher bone to meat ratio to firm up their stools. That is if you see a lot of diarrhea for a few days in a row. Chicken backs can also be a good thing to feed at this point because they are very bone heavy.

Very occasionally newbies will see some vomiting at the beginning...again, this is normal. We did with 2 of our dogs. If you see bone fragments in it, that is normal too. Sometimes the bone can be a bit irritating to their system since they are not used to them. But over time you wont see this often. A lot of people call this the "detox" phase, but in reality it is just the bodies way of reconditioning itself to digest something 100% different than what its used to.


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## spookychick13 (Jan 26, 2010)

Again, awesome info, thank you.
I am undecided if I want to trim skin right away or not.

Should one drumstick twice a day be enough for my 11lb cavalier (am and pm).

Should I give the poodle (40lbs, 10 months old) a quarter for breakfast and one for dinner as well?

And I wanted to add, no one had chicken backs around here. :O


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## CorgiPaws (Mar 31, 2009)

spookychick13 said:


> Again, awesome info, thank you.
> I am undecided if I want to trim skin right away or not.


Go ahead and offer it with the skin, I don't trim unless I need to. One of my dogs always did fine with it, after a couple days with my Boxer, I trimmed and gradually trimmed less and less. It's just one of those "if they can't handle it right away" remedies. 



spookychick13 said:


> Should one drumstick twice a day be enough for my 11lb cavalier (am and pm).


That sounds like a little bit much. 2% of that body weight is only .22lbs, so about a quarter lb. That tends to be about how much one drumstick weighs when i cut it off the quarter. But you could try it and adjust amounts based off of weight loss/ gain. Exact numbers are unimportant, you'll find what works for your dogs, the numbers just serve as a starting point.



spookychick13 said:


> Should I give the poodle (40lbs, 10 months old) a quarter for breakfast and one for dinner as well?


I'm not sure what the ideal adult body weight is for a poodle... but you'll want to feed around 2-3% of that. Some bags of quarters that I buy have pieces that are about a pound and a half, and sometimes i'll get a bag with quarters barely a half pound, so it's hard to say. It;s a starting point though, like I said,youcan adjust the feeding amounts over timeaccording to body condition.



I honestly bought a scale when i first started. a cheap one, I think I paid like $4 at target. I don't weigh every meal, but it helped me learn to eyeball what a meal looks like for each of mine. We don't use the scale anymore, but after using it, I feel more confideny in eyeballing it. 

My corgi (roughly 20lbs) eats 1/4lb meals, and that's about "palm" sized for me. My Boxer (estimated 60 lb adult) eats a pound and a half, and that's about half a gallon sized ziploc.


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## RawFedDogs (Jun 16, 2008)

spookychick13 said:


> And I wanted to add, no one had chicken backs around here. :O


Backs can be pretty difficult to find in onesies and twosies. I've always had to get them special ordered by the case (40#). If you can get them that way, they are very cheap. I pay about $13 to $14 for the 40# case.


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## t0nnn (Apr 1, 2009)

Yeah I pay $17 for a 40# case, buy in bulk whenever you can, you'll save money.

Do a lot of searching for a butcher. I searched for a while all around my area and out of probably 25 calls, I found 2 that were well priced and had everything I needed. I still search on yellow pages in other towns to try and find something. I didn't read the other 2 pages, but if you haven't already go on yellowpages.com and start searching. I found that searching for "meat market" is better and yielded more results than searching for "butcher"

Also it seems like you're wondering a lot about how much to feed, I don;t know if you have already, but read the page in rawfeddogs sig, it's great, simple, and I as many other people on here based their feeding from it and it can't get any easier.


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## spookychick13 (Jan 26, 2010)

Well, we did it!

Both Jack and Flip were overjoyed at the chicken backs! My favorite local store had them in the SELF SERVICE aisle, he said a lot of customers feed them to their dogs. They were pretty cheap, I didn't figure out how much per pound, but 3 packages of three necks each cost me less than $2.00.

Anyway, the dogs were thrilled and munched down happily, and husband, who wasn't sure what to think, is also happy. He is proud of his little cavalier buddy munching down the bones.

Thanks again to everyone for all the help, I will definitely keep you posted.


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## DaneMama (Jun 27, 2008)

Yay!!! I'm SO glad that your dogs have taken right too it!!! 

Since it's your favorite little store do you think the owner would be willing to sell you a whole case at a cheaper price? Because on average I would say that a chicken backs weighs a quarter pound so you are paying right around $1 per pound which is high for chicken backs. Or ask him where he orders his
meat from and see if you are able to order directly from the
distributor.

How many backs did you give each dog?


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## spookychick13 (Jan 26, 2010)

Oh good call, I will talk to the butcher today. 

I measured them out for them with the scale, Jack got one 3oz one, and Flip got 9oz, which was two bigger ones. I have drumsticks and whole quarters in the fridge as well.


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## DaneMama (Jun 27, 2008)

So was that last nights meal or this morning?


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## spookychick13 (Jan 26, 2010)

This morning, I let them finish the last of the useless raw patties I had in the freezer last night.

They had such a good time eating, tail wags and everything.


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## DaneMama (Jun 27, 2008)

spookychick13 said:


> This morning, I let them finish the last of the useless raw patties I had in the freezer last night.
> 
> They had such a good time eating, tail wags and everything.


If you were planning on feeding them again tonight I would really limit the amount. In the beginning giving less can be better, since new food can be a shock to their system. But considering you were feeding the raw patties, they might handle the real raw a bit better than usual with dogs switching.


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## spookychick13 (Jan 26, 2010)

Ok, I will feed less for dinner, then.

They were both eager for more, little piggies.

I would venture to say my cavalier is underweight (shocking for a cav) at 11 or 12lbs, you can see every rib, not just the back three. He was a very picky eater before raw and had a lot of dental problems.

Flip is a pure athlete, 40 lbs of solid muscle. He is my agility dog and works a lot, at least twice a week of vigorous exercise, and he's still growing at 10 months.


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## DaneMama (Jun 27, 2008)

We just don't measure out meals, never have. BUT we do know what each animal part weighs approximately and feed accordingly. We just eyeball it, so once you get the hang of deciding what each thing weighs...feedings will become more and more easy.


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## spookychick13 (Jan 26, 2010)

So tonight should I give them about half of what I gave this morning?
Jack can have a half of a back, Flip a whole one?

(This morning Jack had a whole one and Flip had two).


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## DaneMama (Jun 27, 2008)

Yeah, that should be fine to do. Let us know how they do in the morning!


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## spookychick13 (Jan 26, 2010)

So, duck necks...should I give them or pop them in the freezer for when they're more used to raw?

I've been sticking w/ chicken so far.


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## jdatwood (Apr 13, 2009)

I'd probably wait a week or two before I'd introduce something new.


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## spookychick13 (Jan 26, 2010)

My Cavalier is GROWLING at us when he eats now.

This has to be nipped in the bud.


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## CorgiPaws (Mar 31, 2009)

spookychick13 said:


> My Cavalier is GROWLING at us when he eats now.
> 
> This has to be nipped in the bud.


Absolutely. 
It's a myth that raw food makes dogs more aggressive and "blood thirsty" but it is a higher value item than kibble, so they are more likely to "guard" it. 

I had this issue with my GSD mix when I took him in. I started making him work for his food. Every meal. This was easy on kibble because I literally made him to some kind of command for each and every piece of kibble. 
I would, at minimum, teach "sit" "wait" and "go ahead" at mealtime. I've actually taught all my dogs this routine before feeding, and it's helped with a few feeding time issues from food guarding (GSD) to stealing eachother's food (Corgi)


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## spookychick13 (Jan 26, 2010)

Oooh great ideas.
I was shocked, to be honest. He is usually the most submissive dog I've ever met.
I'm sure he likes it so much he was guarding it, and Flip would really take it right of his mouth, growl or not if we didn't separate them.
My husband bent down to pet Jack while he was chewing and he started snarling.

He did it to me then too, so I made him sit/stay and took it out of his mouth.
Mealtime over.


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## malluver1005 (Nov 15, 2009)

spookychick13 said:


> He did it to me then too, so I made him sit/stay and took it out of his mouth. Mealtime over.


I would have done the same thing if Aspen growled at me...


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## spookychick13 (Jan 26, 2010)

I am shocked at him...the little booger.


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## RawFedDogs (Jun 16, 2008)

spookychick13 said:


> My husband bent down to pet Jack while he was chewing and he started snarling.
> 
> He did it to me then too, so I made him sit/stay and took it out of his mouth.
> Mealtime over.


Leave the dog alone while he is eating. What you are teaching him by the method you used is "whenever someone approaches, I MIGHT loose my food." This of course, only makes matters worse. I suggest instead of taking food away from him, when you approach him while eating, give him more food so he learns he is not going to loose anything when you approach. He knows he's going to gain something.

My basic philosophy is to leave dogs along when they are eating. They don't like to be bothered during meals any more than you do. If you leave him alone while eating. I can't think of an event that would cause you to need to take food away from him.

People often cause or exerbate the problem they think MAY exist simply by trying to teach the dog something the wrong way. I have had to work with many resource guarding dogs because people tried to desensitize them to being pestered while eating. They would walk up to the dog and pet him, pull on his ears or tail, or take some food away thinking they are teaching the dog to tolerate that. They are doing the opposite.


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