# Hunting Dog Needs Nutrition



## 1605 (May 27, 2009)

We have an _extremely_ active 2 year old male German Shorthaired Pointer named Zio who needs to gain a little weight. We have always been concerned that he isn't eating enough to maintain his high energy level, and this week's visit to the vet for his scheduled shots kind of confirmed it. Although he's healthy & happy, he's lost a pound since his last visit in November... something he really didn't need to do. Right now he's at 56 pounds and we'd all like to see him at least at 60.

We had him on Purina Pro Plan (shreded blend) Lamb & Rice, but about 2 months ago, on the advice of a trainer with whom he was boarding, we switched him to Exceed Chicken. We did this because the trainer told us that as an active, working hunter, he needed this extra protein. (Also, it was what he feeds his Gordon Setters.)

During the day he'll get as many carrots as he wants, and a "Greenie". As a training reward during the day he may get some Iams Puppy biscuits (easy to break up into training-treat-size & he'll do anything for them <g>). Also, since he has seasonal allergies, at this time of the year he'll get cheese a couple of times a day to hide the pills.

Please, no lectures on his current food. We know it's not working for him, and want to change it. However, we ARE open to suggestions on what commercial product to feed this very active, high-energy hunting dog that is good for him as well as reasonably priced. 

Thanks, 
</g>


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## CorgiPaws (Mar 31, 2009)

I recommend a grain free, high protien food. Innova Evo is excellent for performance dogs, as well as Wellness Core. Merrick Before the Grain isn't bad, I'm just not a huge fan of their formulas. 
Canned food usually helps pack on the pounds, too. 
You could also replace the carrot treats with chicken cubes, boiled or raw.


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## rannmiller (Jun 27, 2008)

I agree with CorgiPaws. There's also the Blue Buffalo Wilderness, if you only have a Petsmart in your area. That's another good high protein, high fat, high calorie food for your dog that's also grain free (or at least low carb) and all natural. 

You could also try the freeze-dried beef liver for treats instead of carrots to help gain a little weight since your dog gets no nutritional benefit from raw carrots anyway. 

You could also start adding the grease from your foods to his food, like if you cook ground beef or chicken and have a bunch of grease left over, pour it on his food, I'm sure he'll love it. Also, feed him your left over meat/fat/gristle from every meal.


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## Unosmom (May 3, 2009)

Definitely look into a grain free food. I have a 3 year old weimaraner, thats 70 lbs, hes also very high energy and stocky built. His ideal weight is between 65-70 lbs. I rotate between the kibbles, but he really likes Welness core chicken and Acana provincial. 
Some other grainfree foods to look into:

Orijen
Merrick B.G
Blue Buffalo Wilderness
Innova Evo
Taste of the Wild
Canidae Grain Free
Fromm Surf and Turf
Natures Variety Instinct
Solid Gold Barking at the Moon

Price wise, I would have to say Taste of the Wild is the least expensive.


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## 1605 (May 27, 2009)

*Thanks!*

Thanks for the great ideas, everyone! I will start checking out those brands you mentioned: we have a Petco and a Petsmart quite close to us. _*Please keep those suggestions coming.*_ :biggrin:

AAMOF we do sometimes pour pan juices over Zio's dry food. I guess my biggest concern is that he will only want "people food", turning his nose up at his own.  No one likes a begging dog that bothers you (or your guests) at the table because your food is more appealing than his! 

Meanwhile, the main reason he gets carrots is that as a wee puppy we wanted to find some outlet for his chewing. We knew there was no real nutritional value to the carrots & that they would go through his system fairly quickly. He has jaws of steel, this boy, and easily chews through toys that advertise themselves as "indestructible" or "for aggressive chewers". So carrots, rawhides, and nylabones saved our furniture & shoes. It must have worked because in almost 2 years the only casualty was one pair of my hubby's Birkenstocks back when Zio was 6 months old. :wink:

Thanks again,


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## Unosmom (May 3, 2009)

Petco carries Wellness Core and Solid Gold BATM, while Petsmart has the Blue Buffalo Wilderness.
Here are the locations that carry Taste of the Wild and most likely other foods as well:

Petland of Tampa
17657 N Dale Mabry Hwy
Tampa, Florida 33548
Phone: 813-908-7387
Distance: 4.7 miles

Pet Mart
8925 North 56th Street
Temple Terrace, Florida 33617
Phone: 813-985-8788
Distance: 4.9 miles

Dog Lovers of North Tampa
13860 N Dale Mabry Hwy
Tampa, Florida 33618
Phone: 813-962-8646
Distance: 7.1 miles


Feed Depot
15001 North Nebraska Avenue
Tampa, Florida 33613
Phone: 813-977-4702
Distance: 7.3 miles

The Dog's Meow
16311 N Florida Ave
Lutz, Florida 33549
Phone: 813-960-5309
Distance: 8.4 miles


Feed Depot @ Fox's Corners
16820 Gunn Highway
Odessa, Florida 33556
Phone: 813-920-2514
Distance: 12.1 miles


D & D Feed & Farm Supply
10610 McIntosh Rd
Thonotosassa, Florida 33592
Phone: 813-986-8588
Distance: 13.1 miles


Bloomingdale Pet Supply
3110 Lithia Pinecrest Road
Valrico, Florida 33594
Phone: 813-662-9296
Distance: 13.6 miles


Remington Feed
9419 US Highway 301
Riverview, Florida 33569
Phone: 813-672-1244
Distance: 14.5 miles


Pet City Associates, Inc.
2119 Collier Highway
Land O Lakes, Florida 34639
Phone: 813-242-7600
Distance: 14.5 miles


Munchies
3705 Tampa Road
Suite 9
Oldsmar, Florida 34677
Phone: 813-925-0449
Distance: 14.5 miles


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## mdram (May 6, 2009)

if you have a tractor supply company close by, they carry blue buffalo, cheaper the petsmart too, and taste of the wild

heck you can even take your pup in there, well in mine you can


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## 1605 (May 27, 2009)

mdram said:


> if you have a tractor supply company close by, they carry blue buffalo, cheaper the petsmart too, and taste of the wild
> 
> heck you can even take your pup in there, well in mine you can


It's true... we've brought Zio into a couple of feed stores and they are more than happy to have him there. AAMOF, our friends have one near their house in Chelsea, AL. The last time we were there must have been at least 6 months ago, yet whenever they walk in, the owners ask them about Zio and when he's coming to visit! How cool is that?

Take care, eh?!


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## 1605 (May 27, 2009)

Unosmom said:


> Petco carries Wellness Core and Solid Gold BATM, while Petsmart has the Blue Buffalo Wilderness.
> Here are the locations that carry Taste of the Wild and most likely other foods as well:


Wow... awesome list. Thanks!!! :biggrin:


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## Scarlett's Mum (May 28, 2009)

I highly, highly recommend Orijen 6 Fresh Fish.


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## sganow (Apr 16, 2009)

We are currently feeding Nature's Variety Prairie dog food (Chicken & Brown Rice formula) to all 5 of our dogs, including our 4 month old Yorkie puppy. It is formulated for all life stages and our dogs love it. It is a very good quality food. Nature's Variety also has a grain free food called Nature's Variety Instinct. The Instinct line is basically the grain free version of the Prairie line. Worth taking a look anyway. Also, they have a 'try it' coupon where you can get a free 5 lb bag with purchase of a bag (any size).


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## wags (Jan 31, 2009)

I would definelty go for a high protein content for your pup. Natura products Innova Evo The Healthiest Pet Foods in the World – Natural & Organic Pet Food – Natura Pet Products There products are very good!
also Merrick Bg Before Grain.
Your pup with all the energy needs a higher protein diet!


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## 1605 (May 27, 2009)

wags said:


> I would definelty go for a high protein content for your pup. Natura products Innova Evo The Healthiest Pet Foods in the World – Natural & Organic Pet Food – Natura Pet Products There products are very good!
> also Merrick Bg Before Grain.
> Your pup with all the energy needs a higher protein diet!


We've pretty much come to the same conclusion and are picking up some Evo today for Zio. 

I'll update the thread when he is "converted". :wink:

Thanks!


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## Unosmom (May 3, 2009)

good choice, remember to transition slowly since its grain free and can cause diarhhea.


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## 1605 (May 27, 2009)

Unosmom said:


> good choice, remember to transition slowly since its grain free and can cause diarhhea.


Absolutely! We've started adding the Evo & subtracting the Exceed a couple of days ago. Zio is really interested in this new food! The first day I noticed a couple of bits of the Exceed on the floor and about 1/4 cup of it left at the bottom of his bowl, which he ultimately ate. (But only because he finally realized that he wasn't going to fineagle anything else out of us. :biggrin

Today a similar thing happened, so just out of curiosity I put down a couple of pieces of the Evo next to the leftover Exceed. He immediately ate them & still ignored the Exceed. 

Nuff said?!


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## rannmiller (Jun 27, 2008)

oh and remember you'll probably need to feed less of the Evo since it's so much higher fat, protein, and calorie than the other food!


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## Doc (Jan 17, 2009)

Abady has a great line.


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## claybuster (Dec 18, 2008)

Doc said:


> Abady has a great line.


I was just going to mention that.... "classic" granular is my choice for my Field Setter. She will be entering her 6th season of hunting and is absolutetly fantastic in the field. Never any health issues or problems. Abady granular foods IMO are the best out there when it comes to dry commercial feeds. Foods like EVO and Orijen talk a good game, but when you look at both ingredient profiles they're loaded up with the fruits and veggies.

good luck with the EVO Cheryl

Charlie


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## Unosmom (May 3, 2009)

is it the one thats made with byproducts, lard, bone meal and synthetic vit. K?


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## 1605 (May 27, 2009)

Zio's eating habits haven't changed on the Evo even though he's been scaled back to 2.5 cups/day. He's not gulping it all down in one go like a poor underfed stray dog, nor is he begging any more than usual. (Hey, is that STEAK you're eating? Can I have some if I look at your soulfully?)

However, what HAS changed is that he doesn't seem to be having as much waste product. Kind of makes you wonder exactly how much of the FOUR cups he needed with Exceed actually were useable nutrition.

Hmm...


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## azul99 (May 5, 2009)

*Yes*



Unosmom said:


> is it the one thats made with byproducts, lard, bone meal and synthetic vit. K?


That's the one.


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## claybuster (Dec 18, 2008)

Unosmom said:


> is it the one thats made with byproducts, lard, bone meal and synthetic vit. K?


Yes! That's the one ("classic") that is 800 cals per cup, and 92.4% of the protein core animal source, and the perfect feed for working gun dogs like mine!

YouTube - claybuster1aa's Channel


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## CorgiPaws (Mar 31, 2009)

claybuster said:


> "classic" granular is my choice for my Field Setter.




... the first ingredient is reject animal product, the second is a grain, props, the third is good...... the fourth is LARD (are you kidding me?)

Need I say more?


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## Unosmom (May 3, 2009)

whats strange about that food is that its overpriced for the same stuff you see in ol'roy. no thanks..


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## CorgiPaws (Mar 31, 2009)

Unosmom said:


> whats strange about that food is that its overpriced for the same stuff you see in ol'roy. no thanks..


Same is true for Eagle Pack, too. I have no idea how a food with the second ingredient being ground yellow corn can call themselves "premium" and mark up their prices so high. It's pretty much Pedigree in a different bag. Their Holistic Selects line is a bit better, but still doesn't hold its own against the real premium foods out there.

The dog food industry really ticks me off. lol.


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## claybuster (Dec 18, 2008)

Unosmom said:


> whats strange about that food is that its overpriced for the same stuff you see in ol'roy. no thanks..




so? my dog does well on it and thats pretty much all I care about.


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## whiteleo (Sep 7, 2008)

There you are Claybuster, where the heck have you been? We need some good ol' controversary here on the forum, it's been really boring.


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## rannmiller (Jun 27, 2008)

The only things that are really in Abady that's also in Ol' Roy is the by-products and the synthetic vitamin k. And by-products really aren't any less nutritious than the other parts of the animal either. It's just humans anthropomophizing; just because we don't want to eat those parts doesn't mean our dogs don't/shouldn't. We have to constantly remind ourselves that dogs are carnivores and humans are omnivores; therefore, we have different dietary needs. 

After that, if you really read the ingredients and think about their role and place in a carnivore's diet, you would see it's actually one of the best dog foods in terms of species-appropriate ingredients (with the exception of the rice, of course). 

It has *chicken by-product meal* (the parts your dog would eat in the wild), *rice* (not a fan of grains, but it's the only species-inappropriate ingredient in there, which is more than I can say for any other "high quality" dog food on the market including Orijen, Evo, and Core), *menhaden fish meal* (great source of DHA and an animal-based protein source), *lard* (animal-based fat and one of the best fats nutritionally), s*afflower oil* (great for skin and coat), *beef fat* (animal-based fat), *beef and bone meal* (great source of calcium), *undefatted beef liver* (just how they'd be eating super nutritious beef liver in the wild), *whey protein concentrate* (comes from animals), *organic flaxseed oil* (good for skin and coat), and after a couple vitamins/minerals there's *menhaden fish oil* (also good for skin and coat).


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## Unosmom (May 3, 2009)

I'm not saying your dog isnt doing well on it, I'm just stating the obvious. Feed whatever you like, I could care less quite frankly. The fact that is has byproducts and vit.K is enough to convince me to stay away from it. If I can get better food for same price or less, why wouldnt I?


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## claybuster (Dec 18, 2008)

Unosmom said:


> I'm not saying your dog isnt doing well on it, I'm just stating the obvious. Feed whatever you like, I could care less quite frankly. The fact that is has byproducts and vit.K is enough to convince me to stay away from it. If I can get better food for same price or less, why wouldnt I?


I think my food is better and will gladly pay the higher price for better quality. No complaints from my dog going on 7 years. I welcome by-products in my dogs food. And, if people choose to feed seaweed to get their
vitamin K, that is their choice but me personally nothing green for my dog....no way.


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## claybuster (Dec 18, 2008)

whiteleo said:


> There you are Claybuster, where the heck have you been? We need some good ol' controversary here on the forum, it's been really boring.




I can bring on a lot of controversy, especially with the omnivore kibble crowd. I'll take good old fashioned pork fat LARD any day of the week for my dog.


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## Doc (Jan 17, 2009)

My grand pa would say, "son, a little lard ain't never hurt nobody" and he lived a long good healthy life.


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## claybuster (Dec 18, 2008)

There is one reason why you rarely see lard as an ingredient. Pork fat is the most expensive fat for manufacturers to purchase and that would cut into the profit margin. A win/win for the manufacture because they have personal aesthetic appeal in their corner as well to cheer on cheaper fats.

People will also tend to believe that dogs are people too and should eat heart healthy, forgetting about dogs the fact that dogs are true carnivores and there is no scientific evidence that dogs develop arteriosclerosis from fats. All people really care about is ....ewww lard, stay away, yet at the same time lack the understanding what is actually best for their dogs. It seems like most people what rather give something that has zero biological value to the dog, like a carrot, as opposed to something the dog body could actually use.


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## 1605 (May 27, 2009)

*Update*

It appears Zio is doing well on his Innova Evo. 

Would people who don't have field dogs think he looks thin? Probably. But at least he doesn't look so gaunt. Unfortunately we haven't had the opportunity to weigh him to confirm...

Pax,


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## rannmiller (Jun 27, 2008)

Try adding eggs and any extra scraps of fat and gristle you may have leftover from dinner (not to mention any fats that come off your meat while cooking it like chicken fat and ground beef fat) to his bowl, that should help get a little more weight on him.

I'm glad he's doing better on the Evo though


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## claybuster (Dec 18, 2008)

SubMariner said:


> It appears Zio is doing well on his Innova Evo.
> 
> Would people who don't have field dogs think he looks thin? Probably. But at least he doesn't look so gaunt. Unfortunately we haven't had the opportunity to weigh him to confirm...
> 
> Pax,



I went to the photo section and clicked on your most recent pic but it didn't work? Nice looking dog though from what I can see from the small thumbnail
pic! Try linking your pictures from a free service like Photobucket and the full size pic will work every time assuming you copy and paste correctly. If you need some help in this just feel free to ask and I will try my best to assist.

I would be overly concerned about being too thin until after year 3 when he's done filling out.

Glad to hear the EVO is working for him and if you run into any issues or problems feel free ask. Some common problems that can occur with some diets are skin issues and excessive scratching. Both can be linked to non-species appropriate ingredients in the diet.

Has your dog been broken to the gun yet? Gun shyness can happen early and best to start with that when puppies, like week 1. Are you going to take him that route (birds, hunting, field trials)?


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## 1605 (May 27, 2009)

claybuster said:


> I went to the photo section and clicked on your most recent pic but it didn't work? Nice looking dog though from what I can see from the small thumbnail
> pic! Try linking your pictures from a free service like Photobucket and the full size pic will work every time assuming you copy and paste correctly. If you need some help in this just feel free to ask and I will try my best to assist.
> 
> I would be overly concerned about being too thin until after year 3 when he's done filling out.
> ...


We've been field trialing & hunt testing Zio since he was old enough to participate. Although he currently only has his JH, we're hoping to eventually get him to MH. He has no fear of guns or similar noises.

Also, in field trials he placed in the top 10 nationally for his age group in GSPs last season. (He's at a bit of a disadvantage because of being born in May & the season starting here in Oct.) 

We'll be sending him back to "Doggie Camp" in Sept to be broken, in preparation for local trial season. 

You can see more pictures & brags on Zio here on the breeder's website: Ricochet GSP | Field Trial and Hunting Companions (Zio's AKC name is Ricochet's Iroquouis Hunter [JH]).

Meanwhile, he is also in Obedience & has 2 of the 3 legs he needs for Companion Dog. 

Thanks for the encouragement.


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## claybuster (Dec 18, 2008)

SubMariner said:


> We've been field trialing & hunt testing Zio since he was old enough to participate. Although he currently only has his JH, we're hoping to eventually get him to MH. He has no fear of guns or similar noises.
> 
> Also, in field trials he placed in the top 10 nationally for his age group in GSPs last season. (He's at a bit of a disadvantage because of being born in May & the season starting here in Oct.)
> 
> ...




I saw the website and pics of Zio. Great work!

One of the things I learned when I first got my dog (Zoe), maximum exposure to live birds is very important the first year. A friend let me borrow his Quail pen for about a year, and I purchased the birds locally for her training. We strictly hunt Pheasant, nothing else really. Run into some Woodcock during the season but you need the migratory bird stamp for those. I usually just get the Pheasant stamps. My dog loves to hunt, she loves holding down birds on point. She's not anything of a retriever though...lol. I'll never get the picture shot bird in mouth coming back to me. It's my fault, we never really worked on that unfortunately...just being steady to wing and shot.


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## claybuster (Dec 18, 2008)

oh, almost forgot...looking at some of the breeders dogs at the website, note the dog on the home page is showing some rib. There are a few other shots
of some lean dogs. There is nothing wrong with that IMO, in fact the leaner dog probably on average lives a bit longer. Now if the hips are showing that's not good, but that is not your dog, and it takes a good 3 years for some dogs to be done filling out. Again I wouldn't be overly concerned about the weight thing unless the Vet says something. I wouldn't mention it to the Vet that is a concern of yours, I would wait and see if they say anything first. If you mention they might jump on that and start with a sales pitch on how the diets they sell are best and what they recommend. Did you ever read some of ingredient panels off the Vets food in the office. OMG they’re horrible. I think there designed to keep you coming back to the office.

Charlie


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## 1605 (May 27, 2009)

claybuster said:


> I saw the website and pics of Zio. Great work!
> 
> One of the things I learned when I first got my dog (Zoe), maximum exposure to live birds is very important the first year. A friend let me borrow his Quail pen for about a year, and I purchased the birds locally for her training. We strictly hunt Pheasant, nothing else really. Run into some Woodcock during the season but you need the migratory bird stamp for those. I usually just get the Pheasant stamps. My dog loves to hunt, she loves holding down birds on point. She's not anything of a retriever though...lol. I'll never get the picture shot bird in mouth coming back to me. It's my fault, we never really worked on that unfortunately...just being steady to wing and shot.


The great thing about where we live is the fact that we have direct access to conservation land behind our house. He gets to run almost every day back there. During the right time of the year Zio can find into bobwhite (locally known as quail down here) and turkey. There is also an abundance of rabbits, hogs, deer, bobcat, coyote, and other critters. Fortunately, we're not out during the time of day the bobcats are on the prowl, and the coyotes are so shy I think I've only spotted them twice since we got Zio. (Running away, BTW.)

The flip side is that while the above gives us a limited training opportunity, we have no ability to seriously bird train Zio other than taking him to preserves to hunt/practice. However, as I mentioned before, he will be going back to be broken in the Fall. Considering that he's already doing dumbbell retreiving as part of his Obedience & is semi-reliably whoaing, we are optimistic that when he starts in Amateur Gun Dog this season he will be well on his way.

Take care,


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## 1605 (May 27, 2009)

claybuster said:


> oh, almost forgot...looking at some of the breeders dogs at the website, note the dog on the home page is showing some rib. There are a few other shots
> of some lean dogs. There is nothing wrong with that IMO, in fact the leaner dog probably on average lives a bit longer. Now if the hips are showing that's not good, but that is not your dog, and it takes a good 3 years for some dogs to be done filling out. Again I wouldn't be overly concerned about the weight thing unless the Vet says something. I wouldn't mention it to the Vet that is a concern of yours, I would wait and see if they say anything first. If you mention they might jump on that and start with a sales pitch on how the diets they sell are best and what they recommend. Did you ever read some of ingredient panels off the Vets food in the office. OMG they’re horrible. I think there designed to keep you coming back to the office.
> 
> Charlie


We've never been concerned about him "showing a bit of rib". However, during that last visit to the vet, Zio's hips were actually starting to show as well as his ribs being quite visible. Hence the food switch.


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