# random question about attack sleeves



## xchairity_casex (Oct 8, 2011)

i know after you read this question youll be thinking "what the heck made her wonder somthing like that" i really dont know was watching a video someone posted on facebook showing a dog attacking an attack sleeve. ANYWHO
i was just sitting htere thinking to myself "well how in the heck to they train the dog to go for an arm that doesnt have an attack sleeve you know like police dogs out on duty? do they basically have some crazy guy say "oh sure he can attack my bare arm i dont mind!"
or do they decrease the size of the attack sleeve so its so thin the dog just thinkins its a bare arm? or do they jsut get to the point of being so trained they will go after anything?

i kind of like the thought of some crazy guy allowign the dogs to go nuts on him :becky:


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## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

I was watching a program on TV (wish I could remember what it was) that said the traditional method of training dogs to attack sleeves is not the best way, because they go after the clothing and not the person once they get in the field.

It showed actual police footage of a dog grabbing a criminal by the coat sleeve - the criminal took his coat off and ran away and the dog never noticed - he was focused totally on the sleeve of the coat.

I really have no clue - I've never been involved in anything like that. But it was interesting, especially after the showed in real life exactly what the dog was trained to attack. I can't remember what their alternative training was, though.


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## Tobi (Mar 18, 2011)

The ride along of the officers i've taken with k9 units and stuff have told me about how perps have had multiple punctures, and it's not entirely true that they only go for sleeves, they are trained to bite down once and not re-grip because there is a window at that point that they could slip away, so they need to have a good hold on something solid, the one that seemed more knowledgeable about his k9 was a 19 year vet, and 15 with his k9, and had attended the training seminars with them as well. He explained that they went to smaller sleeves, and then started to put the sleeve under clothing, when the dog would latch correctly to the arm with clothing over the sleeve it was perfect... essentially hitting the arm. This is just how i'm understanding it.

I've also witnessed a K9 chasing a dummy (person in padded suit) the Malanois dove high enough and grabbed near the chest of the dummy which was frightening, I just thin it depends on where the dog is being trained, and what for which will define what is acceptable for that dog.


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## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

Yep, I'm not an expert and I don't play one on TV! One thing I know - I really don't want to be the person with the sleeve on.


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## xchairity_casex (Oct 8, 2011)

awsome! thanks for that! the longer im on this forum the more youll see me asking strange random questions im sure 
after i got done watching the FB video i asked out loud that question and my mom goes "why do you wanna know that?" i said "i dunno arent you curious?"
shes like "you better not even think about teaching cesar to do somthing liek that" i jsut laughed at her i would have WAY moer luck teaching my sisters toy poodle to attack a bite sleeve then cesar im sure he would see the person in this big ole sleeve and jsut mash his face into them and wiggle his tail saying "pet me pet me" you could prolly wack im in the face with the sleeve and he would still be like "done now? yey pet me!"

hum maybe i WILL teach my sisters toy poodle to attack! LOL


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## Maxy24 (Mar 5, 2011)

From watching TV I know they often have people wear clothes over the sleeve so they don't see it. I do think it might be hard for them to generalize to someone who was in short sleeves or had their shirt off though. I'm not sure how they go about doing that.


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## committed2excellence (May 2, 2011)

Once the dog has been trained to bite, you steadily decrease the equipment(at least with civil and police dogs). The decoy will wear a heavy jacket or sweater and have a "hidden" sleeve on underneath. This gets the dogs into being comfortable with biting without the appearance of equipment. I've heard some police officers telling tails of paying a crackhead $5 to allow their dogs to bite him. I belie ve it. FYI, typically when you are dealing with harder more civil dogs, they don't care about equipment at all. They know what flesh is and they will look for it.



xchairity_casex said:


> i know after you read this question youll be thinking "what the heck made her wonder somthing like that" i really dont know was watching a video someone posted on facebook showing a dog attacking an attack sleeve. ANYWHO
> i was just sitting htere thinking to myself "well how in the heck to they train the dog to go for an arm that doesnt have an attack sleeve you know like police dogs out on duty? do they basically have some crazy guy say "oh sure he can attack my bare arm i dont mind!"
> or do they decrease the size of the attack sleeve so its so thin the dog just thinkins its a bare arm? or do they jsut get to the point of being so trained they will go after anything?
> 
> i kind of like the thought of some crazy guy allowign the dogs to go nuts on him :becky:


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## committed2excellence (May 2, 2011)

Here is a picture of my arm from yesterday. This is what happens when you have a really hard biting dog and the equipment doesn't slow him down so much. 

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## minnieme (Jul 6, 2011)

committed2excellence said:


> Here is a picture of my arm from yesterday. This is what happens when you have a really hard biting dog and the equipment doesn't slow him down so much.
> 
> [URL="
> 
> ...


O_O Ouch.


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## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

committed2excellence said:


> Here is a picture of my arm from yesterday. This is what happens when you have a really hard biting dog and the equipment doesn't slow him down so much.


OK I'll say it. I'm not sure if I'm more impressed by the dog bite or the arm.


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## committed2excellence (May 2, 2011)

LOL. Thanks


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## KlaMarie (Dec 30, 2010)

committed2excellence said:


> Here is a picture of my arm from yesterday. This is what happens when you have a really hard biting dog and the equipment doesn't slow him down so much.


Yeah, this is why I would refuse to let Jexx bite me without a hard sleeve in between us!! That might be very wussy of me but, oh well. You did awesome yesterday by the way!


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## committed2excellence (May 2, 2011)

Thanks. I have a long way to go but I want to be able to help the group so gotta see it through. Your pup is looking very sharp at such a young age. Stay patient and fair and you will do very well.



KlaMarie said:


> Yeah, this is why I would refuse to let Jexx bite me without a hard sleeve in between us!! That might be very wussy of me but, oh well. You did awesome yesterday by the way!


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## CavePaws (Jan 25, 2011)

o_o

Holy crap...That is a serious dog you had on your arm. I think that dogs teeth would have actually gone through my puny arm.


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## xchairity_casex (Oct 8, 2011)

awww your dog is soo pretty in your sigg committed! lol at the police paying druggies to let there dogs bite them HAHA would love to see it!


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## jenv101 (Oct 13, 2010)

KlaMarie said:


> Yeah, this is why I would refuse to let Jexx bite me without a hard sleeve in between us!! That might be very wussy of me but, oh well. You did awesome yesterday by the way!


What was the equipment? A suit?


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## committed2excellence (May 2, 2011)

Demanet semi-comp. Will use a gauntlet next time for harder biters



jenv101 said:


> What was the equipment? A suit?


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## jenv101 (Oct 13, 2010)

If we ever get a suit, I will be trying it out and taking a few bites...at least once... I have an odd desire to do this lol


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## KlaMarie (Dec 30, 2010)

CavePaws said:


> o_o
> 
> Holy crap...That is a serious dog you had on your arm. I think that dogs teeth would have actually gone through my puny arm.


I know! I see how much damage it did to his arm and then compare my arm muscle to his......yeah, that would have hard to explain to the paramedics, "my arm is broken because I let a monster crazy-dog bite me." I know way to many EMTs that work this area to risk that type of story spreading.


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## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

Maybe those who have little skinny arms should do the naked arm attack thing with chihuahuas - you get the experience without getting your arm ripped off


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## Atila (Oct 15, 2011)

I dont know how you do it with hard biters in USA, since the dog in question is obviously a hard biter and was probably on soft padding sleeve. In Cro our dogs are fisrtly trained on soft sleeve and going for a hard one ( i dont know the proper name of the sleeves on English - we use 3 types of sleeves). Hard biters are always working on hardest sleeve, even in the suite one is under, just to avoid these type of dammage to the dummy.


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## committed2excellence (May 2, 2011)

We aren't working with "sleeve" dogs. This is PSA and French Ring training that we are doing. We are using suits. The suit in question is what is known as a semi-competition suit. It is lighter weight than a training suit but not as thin as a trial suit. The best that I could have done would have been to use a gauntlet on my arm. I would still have received bruising but not as badly. The only weigh to avoid any injury would be to use a cheaper suit made of heavier material. However, many of the off brand suits cause dogs to break canines. Us dummies will just continue to suffer through the abuse.



Atila said:


> I dont know how you do it with hard biters in USA, since the dog in question is obviously a hard biter and was probably on soft padding sleeve. In Cro our dogs are fisrtly trained on soft sleeve and going for a hard one ( i dont know the proper name of the sleeves on English - we use 3 types of sleeves). Hard biters are always working on hardest sleeve, even in the suite one is under, just to avoid these type of dammage to the dummy.


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## monkeys23 (Dec 8, 2010)

Lol I have the crazy desire to learn to wear a suit and let my train's bitch bite me too. I can live with nasty bruises on my legs, I'm always running into stuff anyway whats a few more!


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## Atila (Oct 15, 2011)

Sorry, i just assumed u were wirking IPO program as we do it, only with a softer sleeve. I adminre French ring very much and feel very much sorry for the dummies


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## committed2excellence (May 2, 2011)

No problem. I enjoy watching IPO as well


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## jenv101 (Oct 13, 2010)

monkeys23 said:


> Lol I have the crazy desire to learn to wear a suit and let my train's bitch bite me too. I can live with nasty bruises on my legs, I'm always running into stuff anyway whats a few more!


Exactly - I get bruises and bites from my dogs anyways, so might as well try some on purpose! lol


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## leilaquinn (Sep 7, 2011)

Clearly there are people who know WAY more about it than me, but I find it interesting as well and do a lot of reading on some working/sport dog boards. What I've been coming to understand is that it really depends on the dog, and the type of sport. I read about people with pit bulls who LOVE schutzhund but very much feel that it is all a game and obedience execise. I've read about some of these people eventually getting more interested after just doing it for fun and also geting dogs of more traditional breeds, who are more likely to move past the play aspect and take things more seriously. I have read a lot because i think Luigi would love some VERY casual schuthund training at some point. He has super high prey drive and play drive and would love to hang on a sleeve as a reward I think. But he is super people friendly, which I want, and also sensitive and would i think shut down a bit if any kind of pressure was applied. I would only even consider some parts of the traing for fun for him, and have though about just buying a sleeve to play tug to protect my fingers from his occasional over excited toy grabs that catch a finger (ouch!!!) I also think the flashier obedience stuff would be fun and a good mental work out. I think people training for real protection, such as police dogs are looking for lots of other traits that would not be easy to handle in a purely pet dog. Again, this is my very new impressionof something i just find interesting.


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## monkeys23 (Dec 8, 2010)

He could absolutely do Schutzhund.

Just go sit in on your local clubs first though, not all clubs are created equal. There's a reason I only do PP with my trainer (and somehow we keep getting new people jumping ship from the schutzhund clubs looking for a better decoy/trainer....) and am not a member of the two local Schutzhund clubs here.

I don't think I really knew just how different Schutzhund bitework and PP/other sports were until I saw my trainer trying to get a Schutzhund 1 titled Dobe bitch less equipment oriented. She had good drive so it was totally doable, but most Schutzhund trainers do train the dogs to be solely on the equipment. You sure learn as much or more watching as you do working your own dog. Any way you want to get involved is always appreciated in a good club.


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## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

this was posted here several months ago, but maybe not everyone has seen it. It is really cool - a Jack Russell doing schuzhund.
Mr. Murphy (the dog) has passed away but he sure lives on in this video.


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## catahoulamom (Sep 23, 2010)

I've never seen that video! Mr. Murphy is amazing!!!


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## KlaMarie (Dec 30, 2010)

monkeys23 said:


> Just go sit in on your local clubs first though, not all clubs are created equal.


AMEN!! I would suggest visiting a club at least twice, *without* your dog, before ever taking him out to be evaluated. I started visiting clubs in my area months before I even got Rayne. And I would visit them all if you have multiple options, just to see what is out there before making a decision. 



monkeys23 said:


> I don't think I really knew just how different Schutzhund bitework and PP/other sports were until I saw my trainer trying to get a Schutzhund 1 titled Dobe bitch less equipment oriented. She had good drive so it was totally doable, but most Schutzhund trainers do train the dogs to be solely on the equipment.


I agree that most SchH people train their dogs soley on the sleeve. But to me, it's really more the individual dog and training methods used that determine whether it's all just a "game", or if the dog comes at the decoy with serious aggression. Because I've seen many Schutzhund dogs that have only ever been worked on a sleeve, who are equipement oriented because that's all they've been allowed to bite ever....but those dogs were "serious" in ever sense of the word. They came at that decoy with a lot of aggression and fight, and are NOT friends with the helper off the field. The dogs just knew that the fight had rules, they were only supposed to bite on the arm. But to the good Schutzhund dogs, it is not a game. 

And then I've seen dogs who do only suit work and they are in prey drive 24/7, and are just having a blast playing the game. An example being one of the Pits in my club...she will bite the heck out the the decoy on the field but as soon as he sits down on the sideline and her handler gives the "we're done" cue, she will jump up into the decoy's lap for petting. So I think it can go either way with both suit and sleeve work. But I do agree that as a general tendency, you do have more equipement oriented dogs in Schutzhund.


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## monkeys23 (Dec 8, 2010)

I definitely agree that not all dogs are created equal. Most of what is at the local Schutzhund clubs here are West German showline dogs that are not serious. One person has some Czech dogs and her male is very serious.... he's even more edgy because she's not very kind to her dogs, definitely the old style Eastern european crank and yank method ugh. And most of the Dobes around here were bred for pet homes, I watched my trainer start an 18 month old (the guy got busy and hasn't been coming lately though) and it was hilarious to watch. He does have some defense, but its mostly prey drive. A different guy has started coming with his almost one year old West German working and Czech line combo girl... After doing four sessions with another local decoy who is also of the old school Schutzhund training persuasion.... she was already unsure of the baton and has some major conflict on the out with her owner, so its been very interesting watching my td work with them. If they hadn't jumped ship she could have been a real liability once she finished maturing.

But yeah I digress, a serious dog can be very serious even with equipment oriented Schutzhund training. And not all Schutzhund people train for being oriented to the equipment.

It would take the fun out of it try and get Lily equipment oriented enough to trial in Schutzhund. She doesn't give a crap about the equipment, she'll take it, but its not at all what she's focused on. And being a mix she doesn't have the natural grips on the equipment that like Rayne for example does. And I don't think Scout's wiring could allow her to work around all the distractions at a trial, she's an odd duck. But PP is a great work outlet for them. I just wish I could afford a Malinois to learn French Ring on.


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## leilaquinn (Sep 7, 2011)

I may eventually look into it, honestly at this point we are still working mostly on him not being a teenage overexuberant ass, For now the focus is very much on stuff like sit when greeting people, and don't nip their achiles tendon when you want them to play with you:wink:. 

I do also worry that as bullish as he is he is also sensitive and could get scared. His favorite thing in life is chasing games (thus the ankle nipping, it creates an instant irrational urge to chase him and strangle him, lol) but my husband is a lot like my dog, he gets carried away easily when playing and misses what are, to me, obvious cues that Luigi is getting scared and feeling genuinely pursued. My husband is always suprised that the dog is suddenly peeing while he runs over the furniture to hide behind me. I swear i live with two of the same goodnatured cluelessly rough and then sensitive in the middle creatures in two different bodies. I would never think this would be something Luigi would be 'good' at, and if my mush ball showed any sign of taking it seriously I'd be broken hearted. Acting like a big tough doofus is fine, but I like my personal dogs deeply harmless with hearts made out of mashed potatoes.


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## monkeys23 (Dec 8, 2010)

Understandable. 
A good decoy will build his prey drive and comfort levels very slowly.

For example, Scout has crap genetics and is from a hoarding bust, but she is stable. She's my shrinking violet. She went with us for months and just watched from where she was tied out to a tree (we use the car in Lily's sessions) and one day she just decided she wanted to work and started barking. I laughed so freaking hard that day, it was hilarious. Its really done the most to build her confidence and make her more comfortable with people.


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