# Narrowed my choices down to 3...



## bugslinger (Mar 16, 2010)

Please help me decide whats best for my new pup.... 

I've read this site over and over again, and have officially reached overload !

I will be picking up my 8wk old German Shorthaired Pointer in 2wks, and I want to start her on a good diet of quality kibble. I have several questions...

Do we consider her a large breed ?
Grain or no grain ?
All life stage or puppy food ?


after sifting through the research, the foods that seem to best suit our budget and be readily available seem to be...

(in no order)I said 3 but I meant 4
Chicken Soup 
TOTW
Solid Gold
Wellness 

Please help with any suggestions... and help us give Ellie a good life ! :biggrin:


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## CorgiPaws (Mar 31, 2009)

bugslinger said:


> Do we consider her a large breed ?


She would be considered medium, but either way, large breed formulas are not worth the markup, so an ALS formula will be just fine. 



bugslinger said:


> Grain or no grain ?


Grain free foods are considered higher quality.
I'm not really on that bandwagon, because "grain free" does not always mean more meat and/or less carbs. So, it's up to you to decide what you want to do. Some grain free foods are also very rich and have been known to cause some loose stools. 



bugslinger said:


> All life stage or puppy food ?


This doesn't really matter. If it's formulated for all life stages, then you're fine. 




bugslinger said:


> (in no order)I said 3 but I meant 4
> Chicken Soup
> TOTW
> Solid Gold
> ...


Why pick one? I think in any kind of diet, be it kibble, homecooked, or BARF, or prey model raw, VARIETY is key. I would rotate all four of them!


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## RCTRIPLEFRESH5 (Feb 11, 2010)

bugslinger said:


> Please help me decide whats best for my new pup....
> 
> I've read this site over and over again, and have officially reached overload !
> 
> ...


to my knowledge german short haired pointers reach over 55 pounds so i would consider them a large breed. large breeds are 55-100 pound.


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## CorgiPaws (Mar 31, 2009)

RCTRIPLEFRESH5 said:


> to my knowledge german short haired pointers reach over 55 pounds so i would consider them a large breed. large breeds are 55-100 pound.


Boxers can be up to 70 lbs within breed standard, and they are classified as medium. Their weight range is 55-70 lbs. 

I looked up GSPs and they are 30-55 lbs, so if a breed that can be up to 70lbs is medium, I'd say one that has a max of 55 would not be considered large. :wink:


Either way though, large breed formulas are just another gimmick of the pet food industry.


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## PUNKem733 (Jun 12, 2009)

50-55 lbs did sound too small to be a large breed.


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## RCTRIPLEFRESH5 (Feb 11, 2010)

CorgiPaws said:


> Boxers can be up to 70 lbs within breed standard, and they are classified as medium. Their weight range is 55-70 lbs.
> 
> I looked up GSPs and they are 30-55 lbs, so if a breed that can be up to 70lbs is medium, I'd say one that has a max of 55 would not be considered large. :wink:
> 
> ...


55-100 is large breed, you may not agree, but it is the truth. giant breeds are over 100 pounds. ive seen mixed things about boxers some call them large, some call them medium. a normal boxer isnt 70 though, so that's why they are prolly called medium since most hover around 55 pounds.

either way though,you are entitled to your opinion. wouldnt want to attack your thoughts :

oh btw after posting this i noticed danemama says large breeds are 50-100. so her size begins at smaller than mine does and shes going to vet school .


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## luvMyBRT (Mar 8, 2010)

I have a female GSH Pointer and she is about 45-48lbs. She is by far not a large breed dog. I agree that she is a medium sized.

To me a large breed dog would be a Rottweiler, Newfoundland, Saint Bernard, Anatolian Shepherd, Malamute, Bloodhound, Black Russian Terrier, Bouvier, Bullmastiff, Greyhound, Greater Swiss Mountain Dog, Great Dane, etc....

Some of the dogs above could even be considered a Giant Breed.


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## RCTRIPLEFRESH5 (Feb 11, 2010)

saraj2878 said:


> I have a female GSH Pointer and she is about 45-48lbs. She is by far not a large breed dog. I agree that she is a medium sized.
> 
> To me a large breed dog would be a Rottweiler, Newfoundland, Saint Bernard, Anatolian Shepherd, Malamute, Bloodhound, Black Russian Terrier, Bouvier, Bullmastiff, Greyhound, Greater Swiss Mountain Dog, Great Dane, etc....
> 
> Some of the dogs above could even be considered a Giant Breed.


all of the dogs above are giant breeds. except rottweilers. giant breeds and large breeds are DIFFERENT. this is why some people may say my range is wrong but its not.

but i cant change anyones minds =p


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## CorgiPaws (Mar 31, 2009)

RCTRIPLEFRESH5 said:


> 55-100 is large breed, you may not agree, but it is the truth. giant breeds are over 100 pounds. ive seen mixed things about boxers some call them large, some call them medium. a normal boxer isnt 70 though, so that's why they are prolly called medium since most hover around 55 pounds.


Either way, Boxers aren't on topic, I used the example to show that this breed, which is bigger than the breed at hand, is classified as medium. (classified as medium by the AKC and ABC, who sets the real standard. Doesn't matter what other places state)
Most don't hover around 55. Most males are around 65.
It's my breed. I've done the research. Years of it. :wink:



The topic at hand is the GSP, which have a weight MAXIMUM of 55.


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## rannmiller (Jun 27, 2008)

I agree that GSPs, especially females, are really more medium breeds. A weight max of 55 lbs hardly makes them "large." 

I'd say go with a grain-free food that has more meat in it. I think TOTW would be a fantastic first choice for you. Second choice is Orijen (based mostly on price), then Wellness. Best of luck with little Ellie!


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## luvMyBRT (Mar 8, 2010)

Go to the AKC website and look up the GSH Pointer. I just did. It says it is a MEDIUM sized breed. 

Just letting you know....:wink:


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## RCTRIPLEFRESH5 (Feb 11, 2010)

well i did state in my post i wasnt sure how big that breed got. i said dogs over 55 in my opinion should be fed as large breeds.

so shearing what i hear now, i would say feed the GSH as a medium.


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## whiteleo (Sep 7, 2008)

I can't quite put my finger on it, but there is something very similiar about a certain poster here; has alot of the same similarities to someone that was banned, just sayin.


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## RCTRIPLEFRESH5 (Feb 11, 2010)

whiteleo said:


> I can't quite put my finger on it, but there is something very similiar about a certain poster here; has alot of the same similarities to someone that was banned, just sayin.


who are you reffering to? i encourage mods to check my ip to see if ive ever created another account on this site. this is my only account. i atleast have an avitar proving i have a pet, you dont even have that.

just saying also.


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## PUNKem733 (Jun 12, 2009)

whiteleo said:


> I can't quite put my finger on it, but there is something very similiar about a certain poster here; has alot of the same similarities to someone that was banned, just sayin.


You mean claybuster? What happened to him, I enjoyed his delirious rantings.


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## harrkim120 (Feb 2, 2010)

Claybuster or Mr. Todd.....both banned....

Either way, IMO you guys are both right. 

If you want to just divide the dogs into just small, large, and giant then the 50 and up rule applies, making the GSP a large breed. HOWEVER, more specifically, if you're throwing medium breed in there then you're taking some weights from the large breed category. Therefore, looking at it this way the GSP would be a medium breed.

It's all just how specific you want to be. :wink:


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## whiteleo (Sep 7, 2008)

Hmmmmm, someones very defensive and trying to prove something that they shouldn't need to, makes me really wonder!


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## RCTRIPLEFRESH5 (Feb 11, 2010)

whiteleo said:


> Hmmmmm, someones very defensive and trying to prove something that they shouldn't need to, makes me really wonder!


uh youd be defnesive to..if someone called you out...
what am i supposed to not respond and have people think im someone who was banned?

all i said was do an ip check or w/e to see if ive made any multiple accounts. and ive also said ive posted videos, and pictures of MYSELF and my dog, and have asked reasonable questions. you ar ejust some annonymous dude talking mess =p.


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## rannmiller (Jun 27, 2008)

Ok guys let's keep the confrontation to a minimum and reserve it for PMs and keep the threads on-topic, shall we?


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## bugslinger (Mar 16, 2010)

Thanks so much for the few helpful replies.. once I sifted through the arguing

So those of you who mentioned having GSP's ... what do you feed your pups ? and what are your experiences ?

You mentioned rotating and feeding all four.
I've heard that mixing foods and switching diets is hard on a dogs system and can upset the stomach. Is this urban legend or truth ?


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## CorgiPaws (Mar 31, 2009)

bugslinger said:


> I've heard that mixing foods and switching diets is hard on a dogs system and can upset the stomach. Is this urban legend or truth ?


It's a little bit of both. 
During transition SOME dogs might have a little bit of lose stools if the transition is done too quickly. (too quickly means different things to different dogs, the stools will tell you if you need to slow down.)
That being said, transitions done correctly can be a flawless process with no stress on the system. The benefits of the variety in the diet strongly outweigh what little loose stools you might see during transition. 

Obviously for a more sensitive dog you'll want to take more time to transition and maybe not do quite as much of it. I always recommend to rotate as often as your dog can handle it. 
For example, my cat gets a new kind of food every bag, because she has no problems rotating. So every four to five weeks, shes on something new.


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## bugslinger (Mar 16, 2010)

Thanks for your quick replies... nice getting some insight.

This doesn't make for a picky pet either ?? 

I like the idea, just curious about all this food stuff...

What training treats do you reccommend?


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## CorgiPaws (Mar 31, 2009)

bugslinger said:


> This doesn't make for a picky pet either ??


Nahh. 
Actually, a lot of "picky" eaters aren't so picky anymore on a rotation because they arne't on the same thing long enough to get bored with it. 
Just remember that you are the human, what you put down is what they get, and if they refuse it, then that's all you offer them until they eat it. Dogs will not starve themselves in the presence of food.


as for training treats, I actually use little bits of hot dog or cheese. I used to use the Natural balance food chubs and cut them up into little bite sized bits, but i read the ingredients on them recently and was horrified. I wonder if there was an ingredient change in the last year, or if they were always that bad.


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## 1605 (May 27, 2009)

bugslinger said:


> Please help me decide whats best for my new pup....
> 
> I've read this site over and over again, and have officially reached overload !
> 
> ...


Hey bugslinger,

We have a male GSP named Zio that will be 3 at the end of May. We do field/hunt trials as well as obedience with him. Since he is such a high energy dog he gets about 30 min of all-out-running every day, except on days when he is in the field. Take note! GSPs NEED EXERCISE OR THEY ARE TROUBLE! :wink:

As an active hunting dog Zio is in "field condition" (i.e.: show people would call him too skinny) weighing about 58-60 lbs. He gets approx 2 1/2 cups of EVO Turkey & Chicken Large Bites (grainless) per day. We supplement that with some home cooked protein like hamburger or chicken when he's been out in the field.

Good chew toys are also a must. Nylabones have saved our shoes & furniture. Take note! 

BTW, once you get your GSP I would encourage you to seek out other GSP owners for mentoring... we all could use a bit of help. :biggrin:

http://dogfoodchat.com/forum/pictures/2654-zio-brag.html

Take care,


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## luvMyBRT (Mar 8, 2010)

SubMariner said:


> Take note! GSPs NEED EXERCISE OR THEY ARE TROUBLE! :wink:


So true! Lucky, my female GSH Pointer is now 10 and she still has energy that is through the roof. We go for walks every day and about mid way through our walk we stop at a park and I throw the tennis ball for her. I swear, I think she could chase that tennis ball all day long....:biggrin:

Keep your puppy's mind stimulated by doing things that will tap into his breed instincts. We play hide and go seek where Lucky uses her nose to find hiding family members (my kids). I will also play this game and hide a bone, treat, or toy. She loves it. She did a lot of obedience training and was a therapy dog. Keeping them stimulated and giving them ways to drain their energy (body and mind) every day is a must. Training is also a must. These things are very important for every dog, but (IMO) essential when you have a high energy/drive breed like the GSH Pointer. :biggrin:


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## bugslinger (Mar 16, 2010)

lol... this sounds like its going to be a real adventure. :biggrin:

Zio, is a very nice looking GSP !! looks like you do a nice job with him !

I'm not sure what my hunting intensions are yet, we had a lab for 11 years and lost her to cancer last month, so we are some what familiar with high energy dogs, but it sounds like we may be in for a rude awakening. 

We are very active people so hopefully are lifestyle will compliment her. 

Glad you mentioned the Nylabones, and the stimulation toys. I was just looking through fosters and smith and trying to find some things for her. I was curious about those Nylabones... are they digestable. I'm going to avoid raw hide with this one. so suggestions on good things to chew on are good. 

sorry... we sure have covered alot of topics on this one, but great info. !! 

I really like this site, very knowledgable folks.:smile:


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## 1605 (May 27, 2009)

bugslinger said:


> lol... this sounds like its going to be a real adventure.
> 
> Zio, is a very nice looking GSP !! looks like you do a nice job with him !
> 
> ...


The nylabones chew down into pieces smaller than a grain of rice. (They look like tiny flakes.) To my knowledge they are not really digestable. But from my observations, the "results" are much like chewed up carrots.... just not as viewable. :wink:

Meanwhile, I am becoming less enamoured of rawhides. Although Zio does a pretty good job of chewing them into very small bits, inevitably there are one or two pieces "left over" that are about the circumference of a small baseball. At that point I throw them away.

I may just stick with bully sticks if I can find them at a decent price. Or, if we decide to keep up on the rawhides, keep being vigilant about the sizes of what's "left over".

Enjoy your GSP! :biggrin:


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## RawFedDogs (Jun 16, 2008)

It's been my experience with Nylabones that they just break into tiny pieces and come out the back end with no problem.


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## SaltyDog (Mar 10, 2010)

First, I'd feed none of those. Wellness is going down the same line that Iams went down years and years ago. Anyone remember when Iams was the leader in premium food? Until they screwed it all up! Wellness is heading down that road quickly. Chicken Soup, TOTW and Solid Gold are all Diamond Pet Products and are essentially the same except for a few ingredients here and there. TOTW is also not geared for pups.

Based on your budget (saying you don't want to break the bank) I'd have to recommend California Natural. If you really want to go grain free (and I recommend that you do) the ONLY choice is Orijen Large Breed Puppy.


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## CorgiPaws (Mar 31, 2009)

SaltyDog said:


> Orijen Large Breed Puppy.


Large breed, small breed, breed-specific.....it's all nothing more than amarketing gimmick


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## SaltyDog (Mar 10, 2010)

CorgiPaws said:


> Large breed, small breed, breed-specific.....it's all nothing more than amarketing gimmick



Fat content on the small breed formula is a whopping 20%!!! The large breed formula is better for your large breed pup, at least for the first 6 to 8 months. I generally agree with your statement with most dog food manufacturers, but not in this case.


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## PUNKem733 (Jun 12, 2009)

SaltyDog said:


> First, I'd feed none of those. Wellness is going down the same line that Iams went down years and years ago. Anyone remember when Iams was the leader in premium food? Until they screwed it all up! Wellness is heading down that road quickly. Chicken Soup, TOTW and Solid Gold are all Diamond Pet Products and are essentially the same except for a few ingredients here and there. TOTW is also not geared for pups.
> 
> Based on your budget (saying you don't want to break the bank) I'd have to recommend California Natural. If you really want to go grain free (and I recommend that you do) the ONLY choice is Orijen Large Breed Puppy.



I thought Iams was always trash. What is their story, they actually used to be good?


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## SaltyDog (Mar 10, 2010)

Waaaaaaaaay back in the day.


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## RCTRIPLEFRESH5 (Feb 11, 2010)

SaltyDog said:


> Waaaaaaaaay back in the day.


lol look at all the positive ratings on iams site. this food has 0 meats. first ingredient is a water inclusive meat, and then all corn.

Iams ProActive Health Large Breed

proof that total protein is not as important as type of protein. it has 22.5 percent which is as much as ellness, maybe .5 more? and wellness is better.


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## bugslinger (Mar 16, 2010)

So... now I'm hearing California Natural... Everybody seems to be on board the Wellness train. Whats the consensus on Cali Nat ?


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## CorgiPaws (Mar 31, 2009)

bugslinger said:


> So... now I'm hearing California Natural... Everybody seems to be on board the Wellness train. Whats the consensus on Cali Nat ?


California Natural is a great food by a reliable company. It is not grain free, and each formula only contains one meat source. I personally feel that it has its place in the industry, being a limited ingredient food, but you'd wat to rotate quite a bit to get some variety in the diet if you went the cali nat. route.


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## Khan (Jan 17, 2010)

SubMariner said:


> The nylabones chew down into pieces smaller than a grain of rice. (They look like tiny flakes.) To my knowledge they are not really digestable. But from my observations, the "results" are much like chewed up carrots.... just not as viewable. :wink:
> 
> Meanwhile, I am becoming less enamoured of rawhides. Although Zio does a pretty good job of chewing them into very small bits, inevitably there are one or two pieces "left over" that are about the circumference of a small baseball. At that point I throw them away.
> 
> ...



I have gotten Bully sticks online from a couple different places.
They are waaaay cheaper than the retail price.
I buy the 12in Thick or Super Thick ones. They run about 3 bucks a piece and the quality has been pretty consistent.
Check out dogcatsupply.com; bullysticksonline. 
Healthypetboutique.com sells the Bravo brand and this brand seems to be the most consistent but a little more $5/ea still better than retail
All of these are odor free and natural.


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## Unosmom (May 3, 2009)

The best place to get bully sticks:
12 Inch Standard Bully Sticks | Bully Sticks


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## buddy97 (Mar 29, 2010)

CorgiPaws said:


> Large breed, small breed, breed-specific.....it's all nothing more than amarketing gimmick




i see this getting repeated quite a bit here. there are plenty of foods labeled "large breed puppy" that are in fact formulated very well for large breed puppies with fat content and more importantly overall Calcium content controlled to a reasonable level (around 1.5 % maximum). there are some adult foods that have formulations conducive to the slow growth large breed pups need

there are several foods that call themselves all life stages (because they qualify under very loose AAFCO standards to qualify as such) that are clearly not well designed for large breed pups. most grainless foods have Ca levels at 2+%. imo, this disqualifies them as all life stage foods.

id consider the OP's dog a large breed to be on the safe side, and thusly would never recommend TOTW.


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## PUNKem733 (Jun 12, 2009)

buddy97 said:


> i see this getting repeated quite a bit here. there are plenty of foods labeled "large breed puppy" that are in fact formulated very well for large breed puppies with fat content and more importantly overall Calcium content controlled to a reasonable level (around 1.5 % maximum). there are some adult foods that have formulations conducive to the slow growth large breed pups need
> 
> there are several foods that call themselves all life stages (because they qualify under very loose AAFCO standards to qualify as such) that are clearly not well designed for large breed pups. most grainless foods have Ca levels at 2+%. imo, this disqualifies them as all life stage foods.
> 
> id consider the OP's dog a large breed to be on the safe side, and thusly would never recommend TOTW.





RawFedDogs said:


> I personally don't think calcium level is all that important. I fed my Great Dane pup a raw diet that was about 25% to 30% bone and he had no problems at all. He's been eating that way since he was 13 weeks old and had slow steady growth all through puppyhood. He is 5 years old now.
> 
> I remember the days that the thinking was feed low protein to a giant breed puppy. Then they decided protein level didn't matter that it was calcium level. I maintain that calcium level isn't all that important either within resonable limits. Carbs are what should be avoided.



See it is a gimmick.


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## buddy97 (Mar 29, 2010)

PUNKem733 said:


> See it is a gimmick.


no. his response was in regard to an adult dog, where calcium content is not really an issue. the question being answered was:

_"I know that high amounts of calcium & phosphorus in dog foods are not good for large breed puppies due to skeletal problems. But I was wondering if it has any affect on adult dogs?"_

the studies on calcium and skeletal problems in growing large breed dogs is clear.

there is a reason that the manufacturers of grainless foods (with a conscience) actually recommend NOT feeding their product to large breed pups: Wellness (Core) and Natura (EVO) come to mind.

they know what research indicates. those are their most expensive product lines. why would they want to steer people away from their most expensive foods?

the naturally ocurring calcium levels in wild canines is not to the same levels as it is in a food like EVO. you will never see any breeders knowledgeable about nutrition using something like EVO on their pups, nor recommending it to their custoomers.

Orijen is the only grainless food that posts maximum Ca levels that are near the desired level for large breed pups.

now, it is true that some companies have adult foods that indeed have an appropriate profile for large breed pups. they tweek some things and call it "large breed puppy." that is marketing, but that doesnt mean the whole product line is fine for large breed pups.


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## PUNKem733 (Jun 12, 2009)

Ahhh reading comprehension owns me.


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