# Vitamin C and Glucosamine



## luvMyBRT (Mar 8, 2010)

Today our breeder called me to let me know that the pups had been born yesterday! ((YEAH!!!!! :biggrin) We will be picking up our boy on Saturday June 19th.

She said something about giving him Vitamin C and Glucosamine supplements. I don't have a problem doing this if it's necessary. 

Does a puppy really need glucosamine yet? Yes, I currently give it to my GSH Pointer, but she's 10. I would think maybe to start him on glucosamine when he is older, like 5....? What do you guys think?

What is the vit C for?

I will be feeding him kibbles such as Innova large breed puppy, Wellness large breed puppy, etc. Once he is an adult he will be kept on a high quality kibble or by then be eating RAW depending where we are living. I always thought that if the puppy/dog was eating a decent kibble (or raw) that they wound't really need any supplements.

Input?


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## DaneMama (Jun 27, 2008)

Typically supplements are not needed if you're feeding a high quality food or especially raw. I do give omega 3 fatty acid supplements. I had stopped giving glucosamine because it didn't seem to help much, but I don't see the harm in giving it to your pup. I'm not sure why she wants you to give the vitamin C but maybe to boost the immune system? Maybe ask her for her reasoning...


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## luvMyBRT (Mar 8, 2010)

Thanks.
I had started to ask her about the vit c but we got onto another subject and then I totally forgot. I'll ask when we talk again.

Is the omega 3 fatty acids to help with their skin/coat? Any other supplements you (or others) would recommend?


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## luvMyBRT (Mar 8, 2010)

RawFedDogs said:


> all you are doing is creating expensive pee. :smile:


LMAO! Well, I don't want to do that!! :biggrin:


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## DaneMama (Jun 27, 2008)

I beg to differ that vitamin C only creates expensive urine. When Akasha got puppy warts (which are common in puppies because they don't have a full immune system yet) we gave her 1000mg of vitamin C each day to treat them suggested by another site. She litterally had hundreds of them all over her lips, gums and down her throat for several weeks while we looked for a solution (my boss/vet just said to leave them be and they would go away on their own). Within a day or two of giving her the vitamin C they were nearly gone. Another two days they had disappeared completely. While it may have been a total coincidence, my logic thinks otherwise.

Dogs may manufacture their own vitamin C but that doesn't mean that an extra boost of it does nothing.


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## DaneMama (Jun 27, 2008)

RawFedDogs said:


> My logic says listen to your boss.


Funny thing is she was NOT the one who told me to try vitamin C. Jon found that tidbit on another dog forum after doing some research on alternative treatments. I was the one that showed her that it DID work after she said "There's not much I can do." She was definitely surprised that it worked. 

And I know that no matter what I say about it that you will not change your mind about it for your personal dogs. But I do think that it is wrong of you to tell others that it absolutely does nothing when you obviously don't know with 100% certainty that it does nothing. Let others form their own opinions.

To me if her body controlled the amount of vitamin C internally, why didn't her body produce more to combat the papillomas? How come giving her the vitamin C seemed to work if her body was "supposedly" eliminating it?

With all this being said, I don't see a need to give vitamin C as a supplement regularly. I'm just stating an opposing side to Bill's "it does nothing" point of view. 

How does that explain your logic???


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## luvMyBRT (Mar 8, 2010)

Thanks guys for your input.
I will talk to my breeder and to my vet about the vitamin C and then decide where to go from there. I do see how it can help in certain cases. :smile:


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## DaneMama (Jun 27, 2008)

I definitely think it is a case by case situation. A healthy dog on a healthy diet shouldn't need it. Bill is right that it will make expensive pee in most cases, but in some cases like Akasha's it definitely worked well. I wouldn't give it as a regular supplement since you are going to feed a high quality kibble.

Glucosamine on the other hand I have only given it to one of my dogs for HD later in life. It probably wouldn't do any harm to give it earlier on in life but I also don't think it's a necessary supplement for puppies.


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## Sir (Feb 4, 2010)

Last week I was speaking with a Naturopath after she told me a story about her 19 year old dog. Her dog has the blood chemistry of a 3 year old, per CSU.

Apparently, CSU has indicated the biochemistry of dogs and people are similar.
To me, this is a JACKPOT! hahaha

Giving additional VC to a dog to help boost it's immune system is okay.
A dog who is not in optimum health will not produce the optimum level of VC.
I'll give a dog VC any day over a vaccine.:biggrin:

Glucosamine sulfate for a puppy sounds as if they're overly cautious of the joint, (insure the aid to regeneration and renewing to the cartilage.)* I would ask about genetics of the puppies parents. The dose of Glucosamine sulfate and consistency of giving it really makes the key difference.



> *This statement has not been evaluated by the Food and Drug Administration. This product is not intended to diagnose, treat, cure or prevent any disease.


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## DaneMama (Jun 27, 2008)

Sir said:


> (insure the aid to regeneration and renewing to the cartilage.)


Cartilage does not regenerate or renew (same as there is no magical diet that cures HD), we have gone through this on another forum. If you would like to provide clinical data and results for a trial done on this that would be ideal and I will be proven wrong.


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## luvMyBRT (Mar 8, 2010)

Sir said:


> Glucosamine sulfate for a puppy sounds as if they're overly cautious of the joint, (insure the aid to regeneration and renewing to the cartilage.) I would ask about genetics of the puppies parents. The dose of Glucosamine sulfate and consistency of giving it really makes the key difference.


Thanks for the info. :smile:

I'm not worried in the slightest about the genetics of the puppies parents. Her breeding stock is OFA tested generations back. I've met all her BRTs as well as our puppies parents. Sires elbows are rated normal and hips are rated good. Dams elbows are rated normal and hips are rated excellent. Along with elbows and hips, she also tests heart and thyroid. So, for the most part, our new boy should be in excellent health.


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## CorgiPaws (Mar 31, 2009)

I don't think that constant supplementation of anything is necessary, unless the dog in question has an ailment you're trying to fix. I think supplementing right away is overkill, and could potentially do more harm than good. That being said, if an ailment arises, at first signs, it would be my advice to turn to natural supplements to aid the issue. 

My GSD mix has bad hips, and I used to supplement with glucosamine. In the past few months, I had read about chicken feet being rich in glucosamine, and stopped the commercial supplements, and i toss him chicken feet. I have notices no difference between giving him the chicken feet and the commercial glucosamine tabs, but I DID notice a difference when he went from no supplements onto glucosamine. The chicken feet are working just as well, and he definately enjoys them, and I feel better about it.

At natalie's recommendation, I supplemented Annie with vitamin C when she got oral warts as a puppy, too. They cleared up within a week. She didn't have too many, maybe 6 or so, but one was on her lip, under her nose, and huge- about the size of a dime. I really didn't think that vitamin C would clear it up, especially not as fast as it did... but it worked. I'm convinced it was the vitamin C because when Grissom has warts, I let them run their course, and they did go away, but it took months, and they shrunk very slowly. With Annie, it was a week and they literally showed signs of shrinking overnight.


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## DaneMama (Jun 27, 2008)

RawFedDogs said:


> Maybe because vitamin C is not effective for papilomas?


Not documented and tested in clinical trials. But if it worked for many people that suggested it before then it might be in some cases.



> It's like the people who like to use homeopathy. They give their dog a "remedy" and the dog gets better and they swear it was the "remedy" that made them well. A large percentage of the time, whatever is wrong with any living being will clear up on its own even if nothing is done. That principle is what keeps homeopaths in business.
> 
> It's the same as if you got a bruise on your arm. I tell you to stand on your head for 3 minutes, stand up and turn in circles clockwise 3 times, turn counter clockwise 3 times then say "amen" 3 times and your bruise will be gone in 3 days. If your bruise is no longer there in 3 days am I a miracle healer? :smile:


Homeopathy is a sketchy subject but I do believe that is it IS effective for some things in some situations. There just isn't the "proof" that it works like some things with traditional medicine. 

Giving vitamin C worked for Akasha and getting rid of her papillomas, as well as countless others, and I will continue to stand by that and recommend it to others. I don't see whats wrong with that. The fact that they kept getting worse and worse but as soon as I gave her vitamin C they went away within days.


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## CorgiPaws (Mar 31, 2009)

RawFedDogs said:


> Maybe because vitamin C is not effective for papilomas?


Prove it. :biggrin:
My personal experience is far more valuable to me than any claim made by an individual, vet, or "clinical trial" so since my personal first hand experience says it works, I'm going to stick to it, and recommend it to others who are having the same problems. 
Vitamin C does NOT directly effect a papiloma in the sense that it can not cure a virus. However, it can give the boost the immune system needs to quickly and effectively fight the virus. 



RawFedDogs said:


> It's the same as if you got a bruise on your arm. I tell you to stand on your head for 3 minutes, stand up and turn in circles clockwise 3 times, turn counter clockwise 3 times then say "amen" 3 times and your bruise will be gone in 3 days. If your bruise is no longer there in 3 days am I a miracle healer? :smile:


If I have one dog not supplemented with Vitamin C and he takes months to beat the papilomas, and then another dog, who is supplemented with vitamin C and they disappear within a week, i'm going to say it worked, and not just luck. Papilomas can of course run their course, no one is claiming otherwise. They are just notorious for taking a really long time. 



danemama08 said:


> Giving vitamin C worked for Akasha and getting rid of her papillomas, as well as countless others, and I will continue to stand by that and recommend it to others. I don't see whats wrong with that. The fact that they kept getting worse and worse but as soon as I gave her vitamin C they went away within days.


^^^ditto. :wink:


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## DaneMama (Jun 27, 2008)

***Moved "tripe" related posts to another thread so this one stays on track***

http://dogfoodchat.com/forum/raw-feeding/3062-tripe.html


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## jdatwood (Apr 13, 2009)

RawFedDogs said:


> If you believe it then you SHOULD recommend it. I believe it is a placebo. :smile:


If you'd been here watching them grow & spread you would feel otherwise :wink:

I'd bet $1k had you been here dealing with them taking over her throat and mouth and observed the results from 2 days of Vit C you'd be a BIG advocate of it....


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## DaneMama (Jun 27, 2008)

RawFedDogs said:


> If you have 100 papiloma dogs that you supplement and 100 papiloma dogs that you don't then MAYBE you might be able to prove something.


But that's the thing Bill....I have seen a *huge* number of people post up saying that supplementing with vitamin C in the case of papilloma infested dogs have wonderful success with it (I don't know exactly how many people but it was enough to be more than just a coincidence). Just like with all the people who feed raw...shout if from the rooftops because it works. Supplementing with vitamin C in most cases does the trick. That is what we have been trying to get through to you.


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## jdatwood (Apr 13, 2009)

RawFedDogs said:


> If you have 100 papiloma dogs that you supplement and 100 papiloma dogs that you don't then MAYBE you might be able to prove something.


Bring me 200 dogs with papilomas and I'd be happy to do the field study :wink:

I stand by my statements and results. You weren't there so you can only theorize that it was simply a placebo effect

Could it be a complete coincidence that they went away as soon as I started supplementing with Vit C? YES

Is it likely? NO

Why? Because of how intense her infection was and how rapidly it continued to spread


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## CorgiPaws (Mar 31, 2009)

RawFedDogs said:


> If you have 100 papiloma dogs that you supplement and 100 papiloma dogs that you don't then MAYBE you might be able to prove something.


We'll just have to agree to disagree. You weren't there. I was. I saw it work. I saw two or three papilomas pop up in her mouth per day for a few days straight, one growing rapidly under her nose. I saw them shrink overnight the day I started using Vitamin C. 

I don't need to know the results of 200 dogs with papilomas. The only ones I'm concerned about are the ones in my house, and I already know the results of that. :wink:

It worked for Annie. That's enough for me. :biggrin:

ETA: Show me proof it does not work, until then, I'll go with my firsthand experience.


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## jdatwood (Apr 13, 2009)

RawFedDogs said:


> Thats not a lot of support for the theory that vitamin C cures papilloma virus.


Nobody ever said it cured it genius 

You sure do LOVE trying to be right huh Bill?

and while I know you're kidding about me "agreeing with Natalie" I take offense to it. It's nothing but a BS comment. FYI, I was the one that decided to supplement with the Vitamin C to help rid Akasha of her puppy warts.

Try acting more like a moderator please and not a bully



RawFedDogs said:


> I just Googled _papilloma dog_


Problem is, websites rank according to search terms in Google. NOBODY is going to search for "papilloma dog" if they're searching for alternative treatments

They however might search for

"puppy warts treatment"
"dog warts supplement"
"dog papilloma treatment"

I could go on and on but I hope you get the idea here... :wink: 

There's hundreds of testimonials for Vitamin C helping with puppy warts all over Google if you know HOW to find them :biggrin:

Here's a few
http://www.google.com/search?sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8&q=puppy+warts+vitamin+c
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&...pilloma+vitamin+c&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&oq=&gs_rfai=


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## DaneMama (Jun 27, 2008)

RawFedDogs said:


> I just Googled _papilloma dog_. I read the first 30 links. Of those 30 only one mentioned Vit C and it was in the context of _"Anti-viral therapies may contain lysine, an amino acid; copper, zinc, calcium citrate, vitamins A, C, B1, B2, niacin, and periwinkle, mustard, and broccoli. The latter 3 ingredients contain natural anti-neoplastic (tumor inhibiting) compounds."_ Thats not a lot of support for the theory that vitamin C cures papilloma virus. Oh, and there's Natalie and Lindsey and let's not leave out Jon who would agree with Natalie if she said the earth was flat. :biggrin:


I'm glad to know that you just wasted a few hours of your personal time in doing this...because it doesn't change the fact that vitamin C DOES help with papillomas. Nothing you say OR do will change the visual PROOF that I have personally seen, not to mention the countless other first hand experiences recounted as well. Sorry pal, but a wasted effort on your part


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## CorgiPaws (Mar 31, 2009)

RawFedDogs said:


> Thats not a lot of support for the theory that vitamin C cures papilloma virus.


I didn't know that anyone had that theory... in fact...



CorgiPaws said:


> Vitamin C does NOT directly effect a papiloma in the sense that it can not cure a virus. However, it can give the boost the immune system needs to quickly and effectively fight the virus.


Considering that canine papillomas present themselves in puppies whose immune systems are not strong enough, or adult dogs with compromised immune systems, giving a boost of vitamin C to help beat it, would make a whole lot of sense to me. Considering they generally take months to run their course, and supplementation reduced the time down to less than a week... I'd say it's effective.


> In puppies, papillomas may appear as tufts of cauliflower-like tissue growing on the lips and in the mouth. These papillomas are viral in nature and usually disappear in 2 to 3 months as the puppy's immune system matures.
> Papillomas, Warts, Canine Papillomavirus



Google raw feeding and surely you'll find plenty of sources that will say negative things about it. 
No supplement will get rid of the warts, Vitamin C included. It just gives the compromised immune system a much needed boost.


ETA: With as much as I can't believe you read through 30 google results.. good for you? That shows me no proof. 

I googled "Vitamin C Canine Papillomas" and got many results supporting the supplementation. So, does google determine everything? If so, I think we're even. lol


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## luvMyBRT (Mar 8, 2010)

RawFedDogs said:


> Oh, and there's Natalie and Lindsey and let's not leave out Jon who would agree with Natalie if she said the earth was flat. :biggrin:


You must have forgot to add my name too. :biggrin:


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## jdatwood (Apr 13, 2009)

CorgiPaws said:


> does google determine everything?


Yes, it does. Google rules the world (at least my world)

It's amazing what you can find if you search for it properly

(and amazing what you can't find if you don't :wink


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## StdPoo Dad (Jun 7, 2009)

Regular Vitamin C, or Ester C? It's my understanding that Ester C isn't hard on the tummy the way regular C is. 




saraj2878 said:


> Thanks.
> I had started to ask her about the vit c but we got onto another subject and then I totally forgot. I'll ask when we talk again.
> ?


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## luvMyBRT (Mar 8, 2010)

StdPoo Dad said:


> Regular Vitamin C, or Ester C? It's my understanding that Ester C isn't hard on the tummy the way regular C is.


You know...I'm not sure. I'll have to be sure and clarify when I ask the breeder. Thanks for the tip. :smile:


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## StdPoo Dad (Jun 7, 2009)

Regular Vit C or Ester-C? 




danemama08 said:


> Giving vitamin C worked for Akasha and getting rid of her papillomas,


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## jdatwood (Apr 13, 2009)

StdPoo Dad said:


> Regular Vit C or Ester-C?


Regular Vit C


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## JayJayisme (Aug 2, 2009)

Um, I have a question. 

How on earth could anything produce a "placebo effect" in a dog? Dogs don't know what pills are for. There is no psychological connection between a "treatment" and the results. In fact, most of us go to great lengths to disguise medicine for our dogs inside their food, in treats, pill pockets, etc. I don't see how a dog could possibly be influenced psychologically by the mere act of giving him/her a pill or any form of medication or supplement. 

The beauty of animals is that treatments either work or they don't. There is no psychological alteration of the results just because they THINK you are treating them. Sure, giving them comfort and making them feel safe and secure can probably speed healing in some cases, especially for dogs that have been mistreated. But placebo effect? Really?


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## DaneMama (Jun 27, 2008)

I was thinking he meant that we as human experience the placebo effect of using vitamin C because we *want* it to work. The thing is that it does work, it's not a placebo effect at all to the dog or to us.


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## RawFedDogs (Jun 16, 2008)

Perhaps "placebo effect" is not the correct term for what I am talking about for dogs. To use an example of what I am talking about is lets say your dog has a problem, maybe a limp. You give him some treatment and a few days later you say, "I think he's not limping as bad as he was." Maybe the treatment was that you fasted the dog for a day which would have no effect on a limp but you THINK MAYBE he is better and you attribute it to not eating. It's the perception of the owner that the placebo effect is working on, not the true health of the dog. THe dog may be better and he may not. It's the perception of the owner that he is better. IF the dog is actually better but the fasting was not the cause, I still call that a placebo effect. Most ailments will disappear in a few days to a week if nothing is done so any change is attributed to any "treatment" you might have given. I hoped I explained that well enough to be understood. After I read it, it kinda confuses me too. :smile:

Glucosamine is a good example. It supposedly takes several weeks to a couple of months before it supposedly shows the results it is going to show. Unless you actually had a way to measure the amount of limp the dog had when you began and can measure again at a later date, it is always the perception of the owner as to whether or not he is better.


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## DaneMama (Jun 27, 2008)

Um....am I crazy or did all of RFD's replies in this thread disappear?


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## JayJayisme (Aug 2, 2009)

I understand what you are saying Bill. The results of some treatments/supplements/etc. is really a subjective opinion by the OWNERS of the dogs and not by the dogs themselves. Still, I wouldn't equate the subjective opinion of how much a dog is limping to how many warts it has in its mouth. One is difficult to quantify and the other isn't. Still, the effectiveness of vitamin C as a treatment is an opinion and totally subjective without true double-blind clinical studies. For all we know, the dog would have cleared at the same rate without VC supplements. Without a study, it's technically nothing more than a coincidence.

But...you could say the same thing about raw feeding. Yeah, my dogs crap less and smell better on the PMR diet but other touted benefits of raw feeding are difficult to quantify or make a direct comparison to similar dogs on kibble and there is certainly no scientific study to back up the benefits of raw feeding. But as intelligent people, we see the difference because we live with our dogs and pick on the nuances that can't easily be quantified in a study.

Thankfully, I've never had a dog with viral papillomas but if I did and I heard that a significant number of people had success treating it with vitamin C and the reasons and/or theories about why it works seemed even slightly plausible, and vitamin C isn't toxic to my dog, you bet I'd try it. 

I had a puppy with kennel cough develop antibiotic-resistant pneumonia when he came home from the shelter. After throwing everything in the book at the problem, and hospitalizing him for several days with no improvement, the vet said he probably wouldn't make it. After bringing him home to die peacefully, and watching him deteriorate further, I started digging around, not necessarily for scientific answers, but for advice from others who had been through the same thing. 

Lo and behold, I discovered that this was practically an epidemic with shelter pups and I kept reading over and over again about how people used a product called Ox-E-Drops (sodium chlorite) in a steamer to successfully treat their dogs with seemingly hopeless pneumonia symptoms. I'm not one for what I call, "holistic crapola" but after researching the product and reading piles of favorable testimonials, I decided I had nothing to lose so I tried it.

Every hour of every day for a week, I'd stick him in the shower in the smallest bathroom we have and I'd fill the steamer with the potion and flip it on and let him breathe the concoction for 20 minutes. I had little hope, and no real faith in this "miracle cure" but with no other options, I kept at it day in and day out for a week. And guess what? He started to show signs of improvement. He coughed up all the crap in his lungs and started to breathe. I took him to the vet a few days later and he was amazed that the lungs were virtually clear. He couldn't believe the dog was even still alive, let alone improving.

Coincidence? Perhaps. For all I know that barrage of antibiotics the vet had him on finally kicked in and did their job after the vet gave up. Or maybe it was just the steam. But it's hard to argue with all the anecdotal advice I read beforehand that mirrored my own experience with Ox-E-Drops. If someone asked me for advice on the same condition, I would recommend they try the product even though I have no clinical evidence that it did anything to help.

My point is that there are a lot of things we give our dogs that seem to help solve one problem or another but few of them come backed with clinical research to reinforce our decision. To anyone who has any common sense, some things are obvious scams. These are easy to spot because on the surface, they make no sense whatsoever and they come with no real praise from experienced owners (think canine vegan diets). But I think it's important to keep an open mind about plausible advice, especially when the advice is coming from someone who has credibility and experience, and/or the advice is coming from an overwhelming number of people with first-hand experience with it.

That is the reason I feed my dogs PMR. There was no study that convinced me. It's because a significant number of others who care about their dogs make a good case for it and it makes sense to me. As long as you have a good number of working brain cells, and are good at applying common sense to a problem, why shouldn't this guiding principle apply to other choices in our dog's health and well being?


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## JayJayisme (Aug 2, 2009)

danemama08 said:


> Um....am I crazy or did all of RFD's replies in this thread disappear?


I don't see them either, except the latest one at the top of this page.

Okay people, who turned on the RFD filter? :wink:


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## DaneMama (Jun 27, 2008)

I think he did :frown:


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## luvMyBRT (Mar 8, 2010)

danemama08 said:


> I think he did :frown:



At first I thought I was going crazy....LOL....


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## Sir (Feb 4, 2010)

Natalie, on the other forum, count the "I will" and "I can" so it's easy to see the flexibility in moving forward.:biggrin:

Does your HD stand for Heart Disease?
If it does, well, the data that was given to ya is no longer valid.
Two men, John, (which I saw last week) and Dino both have recovered from heart disease. Would you like to meet them on Thursday for lunch in Denver? :smile:
If your referring to the Chelation Therapy for HD. I'm on the fence, as a neutral party.

Three studies on Glucosamine sulfate
Long-term effects of glucosamine sulphate on osteoarthritis progression: a randomised, placebo-controlled clinical trial. Lancet. 2001 Jan 27;357(9252):251-6. Reginster JY, Deroisy R, Rovati LC, Lee RL, Lejeune E, Bruyère O, Giacovelli G, Henrotin Y, Dacre JE, Gossett C. Link 

Glucosamine sulfate reduces osteoarthritis progression in post- menopausal women with knee osteoarthritis: evidence from two 3-year studies. Menopause. 2004 Mar-Apr;ll(2):138-43. Bruyère O, Pavelka K, Rovati LC, Deroisy R, Olejarova M, Gatterova J, Giacovelli G, Reginster JY. Link 

Randomised, double-blind, parallel, placebo-controlled study of oral glucosamine, methylsulfonylmethane and their combination. Clin. Drug Invest 2004; 24(6):353-63. Usha PR, Naidu Link

I have more studies, however the FTC only requires 2 HRCT.

I also never take just Glucosamine sulfate, as that's just one of the compounds which has shown effectiveness in joints.*

On looking out for thyself. This FDA "footer" will be used while on public forums.


> *This statement has not been evaluated by the Food and Drug Administration. This product is not intended to diagnose, treat, cure or prevent any disease.


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## jdatwood (Apr 13, 2009)

Sir said:


> Does your HD stand for Heart Disease?


HD = Hip Dysplasia


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## Sir (Feb 4, 2010)

My bad. :biggrin:


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## DaneMama (Jun 27, 2008)

Sir said:


> Natalie, on the other forum, count the "I will" and "I can" so it's easy to see the flexibility in moving forward.:biggrin:


Huh? I asked for information supporting your claims. Thats it. You have yet to provide them.



> Does your HD stand for Heart Disease?
> If it does, well, the data that was given to ya is no longer valid.
> Two men, John, (which I saw last week) and Dino both have recovered from heart disease. Would you like to meet them on Thursday for lunch in Denver? :smile:
> If your referring to the Chelation Therapy for HD. I'm on the fence, as a neutral party.


In the dog health community HD stands for hip dysplasia. 



> Three studies on Glucosamine sulfate
> Long-term effects of glucosamine sulphate on osteoarthritis progression: a randomised, placebo-controlled clinical trial. Lancet. 2001 Jan 27;357(9252):251-6. Reginster JY, Deroisy R, Rovati LC, Lee RL, Lejeune E, Bruyère O, Giacovelli G, Henrotin Y, Dacre JE, Gossett C. Link
> 
> Glucosamine sulfate reduces osteoarthritis progression in post- menopausal women with knee osteoarthritis: evidence from two 3-year studies. Menopause. 2004 Mar-Apr;ll(2):138-43. Bruyère O, Pavelka K, Rovati LC, Deroisy R, Olejarova M, Gatterova J, Giacovelli G, Reginster JY. Link
> ...


All three of these studies have basically reinforced what I have been saying. None of them (granted I only read the abstract), say that glucosamine or chondroitin or MSM is capable of REGENERATING cartilage in the joint. It states that it does however protect against the future deterioration of the joint, which is what I have been saying to you. 



> I have more studies, however the FTC only requires 2 HRCT.


Go ahead and provide them because the ones that you posted above aren't really helping your case whatsoever....find a study that explicitly says they have found a drug that specifically regenerates cartilage in the joint. I'm actually very interested in the whole matter because two of my dogs have severe hip dysplasia and really horrible arthritis in their future and it would make me happy to know that someone has found a cure to arthritis that is already in the joint (which is basically what you are saying).



> I also never take just Glucosamine sulfate, as that's just one of the compounds which has shown effectiveness in joints.*
> 
> On looking out for thyself. This FDA "footer" will be used while on public forums.


Ok, I don't see how you could get into trouble with just posting some links to studies...but if it makes you feel better :wink:


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