# The Ethics of Breeding



## SpooOwner (Oct 1, 2010)

Excuse the long ramble, but I'm trying to piece together my views about breeding, and I'd love your input.

I love the idea of breeding, but I'm not sure about the ethics when so many dogs are put down every year. I've read varying numbers for the US, but around 60% of dogs that end up in shelters are executed, or about 3-4 million per year. This means that around 5% of the dog population is executed annually. (If someone has more reliable numbers, I'm interested in hearing them; however, whatever the numbers are, my larger point remains.)

The core of the problem seems to be accidental breedings and not breeders (whether reputable, BYB, or even puppy mills). About 50% of litters are unplanned. Most of these dogs are given to friends or family members for little or no cost (65% of the entire dog population). And despite the growth of low cost spay/neuter clinics, Bob Barker's PSAs, and the pressure from vets to snip your pet's privates, only 10% of the animals received by shelters have been spayed/neutered and only 75% of owned pets are spayed/neutered (which means around 30% of dogs in the US aren't spayed/neutered).

The heart of the problem, then, is owners' failure to have their dogs spayed/neutered, resulting in accidental breedings. The solution, therefore, is to continue to push spay/neuter surgeries. While it's a pain when vets push this on us, DFC members being above average dog owners, I totally understand why vets do this in general.

So how do we clear out the 5% of dogs in shelters and rescues? Do we get all the dog owning households to accept one more? Do we push more people to adopt from shelters/rescues? Do we ask breeders to skip a few seasons?

But this, too, is simplistic. Not all breeds are equally represented in this problem. I can't find numbers on this, but experience tells me that the majority of dogs in need are either small companion breeds or, if medium or large breed, tend to be so-called fighting breeds, like Pits and Staffies, or the ever-popular breeds like labs and lab mixes. Does this make it ok for someone to become a breeder of a breed not commonly found in rescue/shelter situations? Or are these new breeders just as culpable?

BTW, just to be clear, I am not interested in becoming a breeder. I hear a lot of people mention it, and I get a bit queasy, so I figured it was time to give this issue some thought. Anyway, I'd love to hear your views.


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## RachelsaurusRexU (Sep 4, 2010)

2011 shelter and euthanasia stats: http://www.yavapaihumane.org/pdf/white-papers/2011 Shelter Killing Data Report.pdf


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## DoglovingSenior (Jun 26, 2011)

RachelsaurusRexU said:


> 2011 shelter and euthanasia stats: http://www.yavapaihumane.org/pdf/white-papers/2011 Shelter Killing Data Report.pdf


 This brings tears to my eyes.


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## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

Almost all the animals listed on our Animal control website are pit bulls. And the chihuahuas are because of Paris Hilton, I read recently.

No one on the internet who breeds dogs is adding to the overpopulation. Just ask them.

I don't know that I agree that the larger breeds are under-represented in the homeless groups. There are four Doberman rescues within 200 miles from me, and they are often so full they can't take new dogs.


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## SpooOwner (Oct 1, 2010)

As much as I hate the idea of breed restrictions, according to Rachael's numbers they do some good.

Xelil, it's heartbreaking to see so many dogs in need, especially when they're your heart breed. However, just because there are a lot of Dobies in rescues doesn't mean that they are among the most at need breeds. After all, there are between 1.7 - 4 million dogs in rescue/shelter around the country (depending on the source of the numbers). Of course _some_ of those are going to be Dobies, GSDs, Rotties, Spoos, Danes, Great Pyrenees, etc. Down here, we have tons of Pointers in need. Hunting is very popular, and if a dog doesn't perform, the hunter just leaves him/her out in the woods. It's shocking how many Pointers are left as strays and simply stumbled upon by hikers. There are numerous rescues and all are at capacity. One of my neighbors regularly fosters 4-5 pointers at a time (in addition to her own pack of 4). There's an underground railroad of sorts that brings these dogs from the southeast to the northeast (especially NJ) where they have a better chance at being adopted. If I looked at my region alone, I would think that Pointers make up a large percentage of dogs in need. But I know my area is an anomaly.


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## lauren43 (Feb 6, 2011)

I am against breeding, for most of the reasons you listed. I do not believe reputable breeders should stop as long as they remain reputable. I am not sure if its a breeding issue or lack of education issue, its probably a mixture of both. Too many ppl breed their dogs because they love them and they want another just like them but others just don't care, if their dog had 10 litters it wouldn't matter, their dogs are nothing more than property.

The most represented breeds in shelters are generally pits and labs but this also has to do with the fact that there are more pits (or I should say mixed breeds, but many are identified as pits) and labs in the overall dog population than any other breed (I heard numbers somewhere, I'll have to see if I can find them). Also it must be noted the "types" of ppl attracted to the bully breeds as a status symbol.


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## danecolor (Nov 22, 2010)

truly ethical breeders will take back any dog they have produced at any point in that dog's life. if a breeder is ethical (and buyers hold up their end of the deal and return a dog they can no longer keep) then their dogs should never enter into the shelter/rescue/homeless cycle.

of course there are some who would argue that any dog purchased from a breeder takes the space in a home that a shelter dog could have occupied. however, i tend to think that is an oversimplification. some people will insist on only buying a dog from a breeder, for various reasons. some people's breed of choice is so uncommon that it would be next to impossible to find one in rescue or shelters. some people have such specialized requirements for a dog that they need to be able to raise a pup from scratch to fit their lifestyle. 

personally, i have no problem with ethical breeders. i do, however, despise those breeding for profit or out of ignorance. those are the types of breeders who contribute to the problem.


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## RawFedDogs (Jun 16, 2008)

xellil said:


> No one on the internet who breeds dogs is adding to the overpopulation. Just ask them.


Ha!! A very true statement. :biggrin:


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## Caty M (Aug 13, 2010)

IMO a reputable breeder should do some work with rescue as well- usually with their specific breed. 

And I agree,as much as I don't believe in BSL, if it's true that they have a 40% decrease in the number of animals being euthanized.. well my opinion has changed somewhat of it.

It's the people that are attracted to the tough image of pitties that are doing this, imo.


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## RachelsaurusRexU (Sep 4, 2010)

Caty M said:


> It's the people that are attracted to the tough image of pitties that are doing this, imo.


Unfortunately, BSL impacts more than just those people. It also affects people like me who adore these dogs with all my heart, promote the bejesus out of spay/neuter, rescue and try to educate people about pit bulls wherever I go. Also, if you look at the numbers, 120,000 more pit bulls were killed this year than last. Imposing BSL as a means to prevent overpopulation, unless we're only talking mandatory spay/neuter here, makes no sense to me. The point is trying to prevent these dogs from being so overly produced and give good homes to the ones that already exist. If BSL were imposed in CT tomorrow, what would happen to all the pits here in homes, in shelters, in other states needing rescue? Denver has already proven that the authorities have no qualms with pulling peoples' beloved pets right out of their homes and killing them. It could happen anywhere and it will if we don't find some way to educate people about the massive problems they're causing.


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## Caty M (Aug 13, 2010)

I love them as well.. there's really no dog more affectionate than a pitty.

Is there no way they can just require speuter on pit bulls? It's still BSL but not an outright ban.


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## whiteleo (Sep 7, 2008)

This is whats it's all about!
Write a comment...
BSL News: What You Can Do to Fight Bully Breedism also shared a link.*New York horror story: Jazzy, raped and maimed in Brooklyn 
* 
www.examiner.com 
Jazzy has been repeatedly raped and now permanently maimed thanks to breeders. She was brought into Brooklyn ACC 2 days ago. According to the shelter, “sh



14 minutes ago · Share


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## kevin bradley (Aug 9, 2009)

Personally, I don't feel breeding is ethical or moral. 

Is it the FAULT of breeders that we kill so many Dogs every day in shelters? No. And they have the legal right to do what they want.

But could breeders be part of helping a Dog that will otherwise be killed today, be part of the solution?... certainly. It truly is a zero sum game with Dogs. Every Dog that a breeder brings into the world is potentially a Dog that goes down. Sad.

Just because you didn't CAUSE the problem doesn't mean you can't help SOLVE the problem.


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## Caty M (Aug 13, 2010)

I still feel it's important to preserve our breeds through selection based on health, temperament, and appearance. I don't condone breeding untested stock and I don't condone breeding mixed breed dogs. But it WOULD be a shame to lose dogs that have bred true for upwards of sometimes thousands of years.


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## whiteleo (Sep 7, 2008)

whiteleo said:


> This is whats it's all about!
> Write a comment...
> BSL News: What You Can Do to Fight Bully Breedism also shared a link.*New York horror story: Jazzy, raped and maimed in Brooklyn
> *
> ...


I guess I'll reply to my own post! If you notice this pit is is a dane mix, blue merle, and she was raped many times for her color. People who have Danes, be careful who you sell your puppy's to!


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## Cliffdog (Dec 30, 2010)

Personally, I don't agree with breeding PETS. There are lots of great PETS dying in shelters every day. However, breeding working dogs and showdogs is in a whole different ballpark. Would the world suffer if Chihuahuas went extinct? Nope, not even a little bit. Would the world suffer if working-class German Shepherds went extinct? Yes, I would imagine so.


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## Cliffdog (Dec 30, 2010)

Also, that's BS. Using a breeding stand ("RAPE RACK" OMFG!!1!!1!) is not "rape". They're dogs. Breeding stands are an extra measure to prevent DA bitches from biting the male, and they're also used to keep bitches from spotting a squirrel and running off chasing it, ripping the dog's penis out of her vagina and damaging both dogs' genitals. So they misused it and hurt the dog's paw. (Obviously they're f***ing idiots for breeding a mongrel anyways.) You can also misuse a collar and collapse a dog's trachea. I guess collars are also HORRIBLE TORTURE DEVICES.


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## RachelsaurusRexU (Sep 4, 2010)

whiteleo said:


> I guess I'll reply to my own post! If you notice this pit is is a dane mix, blue merle, and she was raped many times for her color. People who have Danes, be careful who you sell your puppy's to!


Horrendous. What a beautiful pup


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## RachelsaurusRexU (Sep 4, 2010)

Cliffdog said:


> Also, that's BS. Using a breeding stand ("RAPE RACK" OMFG!!1!!1!) is not "rape". They're dogs. Breeding stands are an extra measure to prevent DA bitches from biting the male, and they're also used to keep bitches from spotting a squirrel and running off chasing it, ripping the dog's penis out of her vagina and damaging both dogs' genitals. So they misused it and hurt the dog's paw. (Obviously they're f***ing idiots for breeding a mongrel anyways.) You can also misuse a collar and collapse a dog's trachea. I guess collars are also HORRIBLE TORTURE DEVICES.


Ummm, perhaps DA dogs SHOULDN'T BE BRED TO BEGIN WITH. And yes, tying a bitch up so a male dog can breed her against her will is f***ing DISGUSTING.


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## Cliffdog (Dec 30, 2010)

RachelsaurusRexU said:


> Ummm, perhaps DA dogs SHOULDN'T BE BRED TO BEGIN WITH. And yes, tying a bitch up so a male dog can breed her against her will is f***ing DISGUSTING.


That's your opinion, did you even see the second half of my post??



Cliffdog said:


> they're also used to keep bitches from spotting a squirrel and running off chasing it, ripping the dog's penis out of her vagina and damaging both dogs' genitals.


Some people also use them to groom dogs that hate water to keep them still.


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## Tobi (Mar 18, 2011)

Cliffdog said:


> Also, that's BS. Using a breeding stand ("RAPE RACK" OMFG!!1!!1!) is not "rape". They're dogs. Breeding stands are an extra measure to prevent DA bitches from biting the male, and they're also used to keep bitches from spotting a squirrel and running off chasing it, ripping the dog's penis out of her vagina and damaging both dogs' genitals. So they misused it and hurt the dog's paw. (Obviously they're f***ing idiots for breeding a mongrel anyways.) You can also misuse a collar and collapse a dog's trachea. I guess collars are also HORRIBLE TORTURE DEVICES.


DA dogs shouldn't be bred at all, as such racks shouldn't exist. If people are breeding correctly they will be there with their dog to ensure that nothing is going to happen. I would honestly consider it raped, if there were multiple dogs allowed to breed with this dog and she didn't want it to happen (more or less why she was in the rack) it shouldn't have. Rape is classified as non-consensual no? so under the technical term it would be classified as such. A collar damaging a dog is again, from misuse by an owner just as this rack was, the rack doesn't have any place with an ethical breeder imo.


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## Cliffdog (Dec 30, 2010)

Wow, people really do anthropomorphize dogs way too much. I'm an APBT enthusiast, I don't care if a dog's DA. DA is _easily_ managed and not a big deal to me in any way. But whatever, everybody has an opinion.


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## RachelsaurusRexU (Sep 4, 2010)

Yes, and I found the whole post to be a big crock. I just chose to respond to the parts that pissed me off the most. Funny how you only show up here during these conversations to inject your two cents. It seems to me as though you and your friends on the pit bull forums see your dogs as not much more than objects and status symbols. In my opinion, it's that mentality that is a huge part of the problem.


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## Cliffdog (Dec 30, 2010)

Uh, my dogs are pets and working companions. They don't meet many strangers, so they aren't "status symbols" or else I'd show them off, eh? I came to this thread to post my opinion (stop breeding pets but don't persecute working/show breeders) and saw the "RAPE RACK" thing, and yes, had to comment. 

EDIT: Back on topic, I don't believe in breeding unproven dogs. In the APBT world you see people breed for "pretty pedigrees" very often. In other words they breed dogs with some famous dog seven gens back. The dog did nothing in its life to make it worthy of being bred, they just bred the dog because it has that famous name in the pedigree. In my opinion that's akin to being a BYB. Only breed dogs with a purpose or else you're doing nothing but adding to the overpopulation problem.


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## Tobi (Mar 18, 2011)

Cliffdog said:


> Wow, people really do anthropomorphize dogs way too much. I'm an APBT enthusiast, I don't care if a dog's DA. DA is _easily_ managed and not a big deal to me in any way. But whatever, everybody has an opinion.


That's your opinion... but why would you breed a dog in this day and age to be dog aggressive, people strive for bully breeds to be looked at in a different light and you're saying.. welp DA isn't a big deal because it's easily managed when most that have a DA dog don't manage it and then other peoples dogs get injured and it winds up in the news as "pit bull attacks retriever" or whatever the case may be. Again why breed a bad characteristic into a new litter? that is part of being a responsible breeder, and anybody that breeds dogs that are clearly overly aggressive with other dogs to the point that they cannot breed them without a stand is completely retarded.


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## whiteleo (Sep 7, 2008)

You think the people that were breeding Jazzy were doing her justice by using "the rack" if you think they were then there really is something wrong with the thinking going on!


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## RachelsaurusRexU (Sep 4, 2010)

You've also stated in previous threads that you have no problem with dog fighting and you don't think it's as cruel as people make it out to be. You're not an APBT enthusiast, you're a young, impressionable kid who got mixed up with an unfortunate group of people who need big tough dogs as penis extensions. Anyone with your mentality has an opinion that, in my mind, shouldn't even be considered valid.


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## Cliffdog (Dec 30, 2010)

Tobi said:


> That's your opinion... but why would you breed a dog in this day and age to be dog aggressive, people strive for bully breeds to be looked at in a different light and you're saying.. welp DA isn't a big deal because it's easily managed when most that have a DA dog don't manage it and then other peoples dogs get injured and it winds up in the news as "pit bull attacks retriever" or whatever the case may be. Again why breed a bad characteristic into a new litter? that is part of being a responsible breeder, and anybody that breeds dogs that are clearly overly aggressive with other dogs to the point that they cannot breed them without a stand is completely retarded.


Shelter dogs with DA are often not managed. They shouldn't have been bred in the first place. Obviously they weren't breed by a good breeder or they wouldn't be in a shelter. Reputable breeders put their dogs in responsible APBT homes with experience where the DA would be managed. Keeping APBTs to standard is a good thing.



whiteleo said:


> You think the people that were breeding Jazzy were doing her justice by using "the rack" if you think they were then there really is something wrong with the thinking going on!


You're putting words in my mouth. Breeding stands are a tool that can be misused. I already said that Jazzy's breeders were idiots. If I met them I'd curb stomp them until their heads exploded.


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## RachelsaurusRexU (Sep 4, 2010)

Tobi said:


> That's your opinion... but why would you breed a dog in this day and age to be dog aggressive, people strive for bully breeds to be looked at in a different light and you're saying.. welp DA isn't a big deal because it's easily managed when most that have a DA dog don't manage it and then other peoples dogs get injured and it winds up in the news as "pit bull attacks retriever" or whatever the case may be. Again why breed a bad characteristic into a new litter? that is part of being a responsible breeder, and anybody that breeds dogs that are clearly overly aggressive with other dogs to the point that they cannot breed them without a stand is completely retarded.


Well, of course someone who thinks dog fighting is a-okay won't have beef with using rape stands. Duhhh!


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## CavePaws (Jan 25, 2011)

Cliffdog, everytime I see you post on topics like these I just feel like taking out the trash. The human trash. You seriously are so gross in so many respects. Take a look around you, do We really need more dog aggressive dogs with crappy genetics ending up in shelters, being pts, through no fault of their own? You are part of the many people in this world who I hope to god never has children to pass your lack of good moral on to. Seriously grow up.


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## Cliffdog (Dec 30, 2010)

RachelsaurusRexU said:


> Well, of course someone who thinks dog fighting is a-okay won't have beef with using rape stands. Duhhh!


Obviously. And obviously someone dredging up old garbage from months-old posts has a strong basis for their argument. (That's sarcasm.)



RachelsaurusRexU said:


> You're not an APBT enthusiast, you're a young, impressionable kid who got mixed up with an unfortunate group of people who need big tough dogs as penis extensions.


Actually, most gamedogs are small, lean dogs, not "big tough dogs".  Way to show you don't know anything about APBTs.


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## Cliffdog (Dec 30, 2010)

CavePaws said:


> Cliffdog, everytime I see you post on topics like these I just feel like taking out the trash. The human trash. You seriously are so gross in so many respects. Take a look around you, do We really need more dog aggressive dogs with crappy genetics ending up in shelters, being pts, through no fault of their own? You are part of the many people in this world who I hope to god never has children to pass your lack of good moral on to. Seriously grow up.


I don't support breeding ANY dog with crappy genetics, or any dog at all being bred by such a sh***y breeder that they'd wind up in a shelter.


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## RawFedDogs (Jun 16, 2008)

Lets tone down the discussion just a couple of notches. It's getting pretty heated.


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## danecolor (Nov 22, 2010)

if a dog is so aggressive that she cannot be bred without being strapped down, why on earth would you want her passing her temperament on to another generation? 

yes, DA dogs can be managed, but (even among us who love and own DA or reactive dogs) why would you intentionally want to choose a puppy from aggressive parents, knowing that one day you will likely not be able to take the dog out to walk around town without having to be on guard for approaching dogs at all times? no matter how much you love your own DA dog, the inability to ever fully relax and trust your dog with strange dogs is not something anyone with sense would seek out when purchasing a puppy.

again, if a dog has to be strapped down to mate, there is a serious problem. if there is worry that the dogs could accidentally injure each other by bolting after something, the dogs should be on leash with owners/breeders around to control them. a bitch should never be tied down and forced to mate when she has refused a male. that is completely unnatural and no doubt highly stressful for a dog.


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## RachelsaurusRexU (Sep 4, 2010)

Cliffdog said:


> Obviously. And obviously someone dredging up old garbage from months-old posts has a strong basis for their argument. (That's sarcasm.)
> 
> 
> 
> Actually, most gamedogs are small, lean dogs, not "big tough dogs".  Way to show you don't know anything about APBTs.


Well, looks like you got me! May as well throw in the towel. 

Seriously, kid. Grow up and open your eyes.


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## Liz (Sep 27, 2010)

Hi Everyone, I do breed. There is not enough room or time to go through reasons, standards, testing, etc. I believe in before breeding. As for breeders being the problem, I don't see reputable breeders as the problem. I see this reasoning all the time - if you didn't breed they would get their dog from the pound or rescue. This is just not so. The people who come to me for a pup or adult dog want what we offer - temperment tested, trained (appropriate to age), socialized, healthy, well bred guaranteed dog. They usually have young children and will not risk getting a problem dog that they cannot work with. I also get people who want a dog to work or show and they also want to know exactly what they are getting. These people will not go to a pound or rescue they will seek out a good breeder with quality animals. Yes we should help rescue and place displaced animals which I do - although I usually stick with my own breeds or at least herding breeds as they get along with my own crew. There are so many issues with a rescue or pound pup that many people don't know where to start. I appreciate people who know what their limits are - if they are not good at training or behavior modification, or if they just cannot afford to spend the money for specialized training, they cannot afford to take the risk of such a dog. That is not to say you cannot get an incredible dog from the pound/rescue. There are some incredible dogs out there. This group is very dedicated to their animals - and that is not the norm. Many, many people I have taught obedience classes to and worked with privately are truly clueless as to what to do with a dog - not bad people but not dog smart. Anyway I hope you all get what I am trying to say as I am not trying to upset anyone.


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## Cliffdog (Dec 30, 2010)

Well, all I can say is that I'm done here, I'd recommend a forum like Pit Bull Chat because obviously true APBT talk isn't favored here.


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## CavePaws (Jan 25, 2011)

Cliffdog said:


> Wow, people really do anthropomorphize dogs way too much. I'm an APBT enthusiast, I don't care if a dog's DA. DA is _easily_ managed and not a big deal to me in any way. But whatever, everybody has an opinion.


Easily managed?! Did you see my post about me taking my severely DA dog off meds? If she wasnt wiyh me she woud be dead. True DA dogs are extremely hard to mange, rarely live a normal life, and very hard to use in most working or eventing environments. My dog is a magnificenct agility dog, but is DA, even if we made it to the world team and won nationals I would never, ever, not even a remote little thought, consider breeding her to pass on her ability to perform so well in agility. It is just a completely ridiculous notion in this day and age to be breeding DA dogs. I'm going to assume you have never owned one, someone who has wouldn't make such an a$$ backward statement.


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## danecolor (Nov 22, 2010)

i also have to say:

those of us who choose to own, breed, and train powerful breeds and large or giant breed dogs have a higher standard of behavior to uphold than others. people who love breeds like great danes, mastiffs, APBTs, rottweilers, dobermans, etc own dogs with the potential to cause great harm to other people and dogs. by sharing your life with one of these dogs, you take on the responsibility of making sure your dog is safe and a model citizen. for breeders, this means only allowing dogs with stellar temperaments to contribute to the next generation. for owners, this means doing your best to socialize and train any dog that comes into your life. for those owners who do struggle with aggression and problem behaviors, this means working your absolute hardest to manage, counter condition, and/or rehabilitate your dog. 

when people take on one of these breeds and are negligent, not only are others put at risk but the reputation of their breed of choice is also dragged through the mud by their bad example. it simply is not acceptable to breed dogs with bad temperaments, or neglect putting the work into a puppy, or not manage problem behaviors through training.

i am not saying that people who own less powerful or smaller breeds are off the hook in regards to responsible ownership and breeding. i am saying that those of us who have dogs with a great potential to cause damage based on size and strength alone need to take the extra initiative to make sure we are upstanding, responsible dog owners. an untrained schnauzer can deliver a nasty bite, but an out-of-control great dane or APBT can main or kill someone. that is the difference, and that is why it is especially awful to hear an owner of a powerful breed treat DA and the breeding of DA dogs as if it is no big deal.


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## luvMyBRT (Mar 8, 2010)

Cliffdog said:


> Wow, people really do anthropomorphize dogs way too much. I'm an APBT enthusiast, I don't care if a dog's DA. DA is _easily_ managed and not a big deal to me in any way. But whatever, everybody has an opinion.


I'd like to see you easily manage a full grown 120+ pound adult male Black Russian Terrier with full blown dog aggression.....or any breed for that matter. Your statements are ridiculous and show your ignorance. True dog aggression is a big problem and requires an experienced person to work with the dog.

Danecolor- your last post was awesome!


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## Maxy24 (Mar 5, 2011)

Do I think it's okay for an APBT breeder to breed FOR dog aggression? No. Do I think breeding a DA dog makes the breeder irresponsible? NO. Therefore I don't think breeding stands are OMG evil. To me it's sort of like this. Say aggression towards cats was something we didn't want around anymore and so we told all Jack Russel Terrier breeders that they shouldn't breed any dog that would try and kill a cat. Sure some might not try killing cats. But a whole lot really want to kill cats. Now of course, being JRT lovers we'd want to make sure we were still breeding dogs with the JRT temperament in all other ways beside wanting to kill animals like cats (and some would argue of course that if they don't want to do that then they aren't good representatives of their breed, that's what they were bred for anyways). We'd also only want to breed genetically healthy dogs so we're not passing on diseases. So we have just thrown out all JRTs with prey drive, bad health, and improper temperaments. Now our gene pool is freaking tiny and their health is going to go WAY south because of all the inbreeding that has occurred by throwing out so many dogs.


Dog aggression is not uncommon in APBTs, anyone who is not willing to deal with it should not own the breed. Do I think it would be nice if we bred away from it? Yes it would make a lot of people's lives easier and might make the breed look better. Do I think we should just suddenly stop breeding DA APBTs? No, we'd limit the gene pool so much that the breed would be plagued with health problems. I'd rather see breeders work on good health and proper temperament (friendly with humans, high activity levels, athletic, brave, tolerant, persistent, etc.), than focus on eliminating DA, a normal trait in APBTs (and most other terriers). I do think the dogs should be controllable, not all DA dogs go ballistic at the sight of other dogs on leash. 

If APBT breeders are to breed away from DA it should be VERY slow, breeding for slightly less DA over time, so that they don't chop the gene pool down to nothing. But I do know plenty of pit bull people who feel that most non-DA dogs also don't have the proper pit bull temperament in other aspects (persistence, courage, etc.).


As far as breeding in general goes, I don't have a problem with responsible breeders. I would rather get a puppy from a good breeder than from a shelter or rescue. A good breeder will have proved their dogs' temperaments in some way, so you have a good idea of what you're getting. A shelter/rescue puppy is a total crapshoot, the parents could be vicious or fearful, super lazy or super energetic, who knows. And this goes for purebred and mixes, a purebred in a shelter is not from a good breeder and therefore could have any temperament. Now if I didn't want a puppy (and I promise you I don't lol) I would be MORE than happy to get a shelter dog whose temperament is there for me to see, fully developed. So I totally understand why people want animals from breeders, they want predictability, which is fine. They have a right to get a dog they are almost certain will fit into their lives perfectly. But then they should be going to breeders who actually breed dogs with the temperament the breed should have, otherwise that predictability doesn't exist. I also think they need to health test, otherwise they could be destroying the breed, and I'm sure health is another reason people want to go to breeders.


I think it's horrible that people think BSL is a good solution! If I want a pit bull puppy from a good breeder I should be able to get one. There is no reason to penalize good breeders because their breed happens to be super popular and frequently owned by idiots. And there is no reason to make it impossible for good owners to own the breed they love. If you want to target somebody, target bad breeders and irresponsible owners. If people stop breeding pit bulls the breed will cease to exist, but that's the goal then isn't it *shakes head*.


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## RachelsaurusRexU (Sep 4, 2010)

There is absolutely no reason for people to continue breeding DA dogs. Pit bull type dogs are in the hot seat and are truly in danger right now due to public perception and many irresponsible individuals. So many of us are desperately trying to change peoples' minds about pitties, and if these breeders truly loved their dogs and were in breeding for the right reasons, they'd be on the same page. 

I agree that people who aren't prepared for or willing to deal with DA should not choose to acquire a pit bull type dog. I have a few DA/dog reactive dogs and it's tough. Do I wish they weren't DA? Absolutely! Do I manage them to the very best of my ability? Of course I do, because I love my dogs with every ounce of my being. 

As far as legislation goes, there have been mandatory speuter laws in various cities/counties/states throughout the country. As far as I know, responsible, ethical breeders are generally not affected. They'd have to apply for kennel licensing and prove that their dogs are being bred for a purpose, like conformation, various sports, police or military work, etc. I don't think that's a bad thing at all.


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## lauren43 (Feb 6, 2011)

RachelsaurusRexU said:


> Unfortunately, BSL impacts more than just those people. It also affects people like me who adore these dogs with all my heart, promote the bejesus out of spay/neuter, rescue and try to educate people about pit bulls wherever I go. Also, if you look at the numbers, 120,000 more pit bulls were killed this year than last. Imposing BSL as a means to prevent overpopulation, unless we're only talking mandatory spay/neuter here, makes no sense to me. The point is trying to prevent these dogs from being so overly produced and give good homes to the ones that already exist. If BSL were imposed in CT tomorrow, what would happen to all the pits here in homes, in shelters, in other states needing rescue? Denver has already proven that the authorities have no qualms with pulling peoples' beloved pets right out of their homes and killing them. It could happen anywhere and it will if we don't find some way to educate people about the massive problems they're causing.


The other issue with BSL is there is no way to "tell" if a dog is in fact a pit bull. Many dogs that aren't pits but look bully in anyway will be under the gun as well. I too own and love my pit mix, if BSL happened here and someone tried to take my dog away...I don't know what I would do.



Cliffdog said:


> Personally, I don't agree with breeding PETS. There are lots of great PETS dying in shelters every day. However, breeding working dogs and showdogs is in a whole different ballpark. Would the world suffer if Chihuahuas went extinct? Nope, not even a little bit. Would the world suffer if working-class German Shepherds went extinct? Yes, I would imagine so.


I'm sorry but even if ppl stopped breeding tomorrow, certain breeds of dogs would not go extinct. I don't think it's fair to say one dog deserves to live more than another.



Liz said:


> There are so many issues with a rescue or pound pup that many people don't know where to start. I appreciate people who know what their limits are - if they are not good at training or behavior modification, or if they just cannot afford to spend the money for specialized training, they cannot afford to take the risk of such a dog. That is not to say you cannot get an incredible dog from the pound/rescue. There are some incredible dogs out there. This group is very dedicated to their animals - and that is not the norm. Many, many people I have taught obedience classes to and worked with privately are truly clueless as to what to do with a dog - not bad people but not dog smart. Anyway I hope you all get what I am trying to say as I am not trying to upset anyone.


People don't have to rescue from a shelter. There are so many ways to rescue. If a person is unsure they would be able to take on a dog with "issues" they could look for a breed specific rescue or a rescue that does fostering. Many of these dogs are living in homes where they are well cared for and the person adopting would then know exactly what they are getting themselves into.

I do agree that shelter dogs are hit and miss but if a person doesn't take the chance, they will never know what they are missing out on. I for one would like to one day rescue a dog from the euth list at the NYACC. Is that a gamble? Yes. But I know what I am getting into.

I do not believe getting a dog from a breeder is necessarily the easier way. I guess this could be breed dependent, but when adopting a puppy (any puppy) they all have to be potty trained, taught your schedule, can't be left as long, taught not to chew on things, puppies are a lot of work no matter where they come from. Knowing genetics and the temperment of the parents is a plus though.


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## SpooOwner (Oct 1, 2010)

Liz said:


> Hi Everyone, I do breed. There is not enough room or time to go through reasons, standards, testing, etc. I believe in before breeding. As for breeders being the problem, I don't see reputable breeders as the problem. I see this reasoning all the time - if you didn't breed they would get their dog from the pound or rescue. This is just not so. The people who come to me for a pup or adult dog want what we offer - temperment tested, trained (appropriate to age), socialized, healthy, well bred guaranteed dog. They usually have young children and will not risk getting a problem dog that they cannot work with. I also get people who want a dog to work or show and they also want to know exactly what they are getting. These people will not go to a pound or rescue they will seek out a good breeder with quality animals. Yes we should help rescue and place displaced animals which I do - although I usually stick with my own breeds or at least herding breeds as they get along with my own crew. There are so many issues with a rescue or pound pup that many people don't know where to start. I appreciate people who know what their limits are - if they are not good at training or behavior modification, or if they just cannot afford to spend the money for specialized training, they cannot afford to take the risk of such a dog. That is not to say you cannot get an incredible dog from the pound/rescue. There are some incredible dogs out there. This group is very dedicated to their animals - and that is not the norm. Many, many people I have taught obedience classes to and worked with privately are truly clueless as to what to do with a dog - not bad people but not dog smart. Anyway I hope you all get what I am trying to say as I am not trying to upset anyone.


Thanks for chiming in, Liz. Looking around my neighborhood, there are definitely some people who would have been better off going the breeder route than rescuing. No matter how proud they are of themselves for rescuing, they're not competent (or interested) enough dog owners to deal with an older dog with issues. Not a knock against rescues - just that they're not for everyone, unfortunately.


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## KlaMarie (Dec 30, 2010)

lauren43 said:


> I'm sorry but even if ppl stopped breeding tomorrow, certain breeds of dogs would not go extinct.


Um, yes they would. If everyone in the world stopped breeding GSDs today, in 15 years, there would be very few purebred GSDs out there. Of course stray dogs are going to breed, but the chances are not good that you'll have purebred GSDs coming out of those breedings. 



lauren43 said:


> I don't think it's fair to say one dog deserves to live more than another.


I agree with you there. Just because it is purebred doesn't mean the dog deserves to live over a mut.

BUT.....we need certain purebred dogs much more than we need just any mixed breed dog from the pound. Our LEOs and military handlers NEED the working line GSDs, Malinois, and Labs. They need them to have certain drives and temperaments. Those specific things are very hard to find by just evaluating dogs that pop up in a shelter. So we needs breeders to select and breed for those traits. Without those breeders, we wouldn't have the Police K9s that are invaluable assests to our officers. It's not always about what a specific dog deserves, it's about what is needed.

What about service animals? The vast majority of those dogs come from breeders who are selecting for certain traits.

What about me? I have a passion for a dog sport that most dogs just cannot handle. I needed a very specific type of dog, I wasn't going to find that dog in a shelter or rescue.


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## minnieme (Jul 6, 2011)

Pit bull talk aside, I too have had some concerns with purebreds. My heart goes out to all the poor babies in the shelters...but at the same time, I knew EXACTLY what temperament I wanted in my house. My sister went for the cutest pound puppy there, and now she pretty much hates the thing (so sad) because it doesn't mesh at all with her lifestyle. He is insanely energetic and hyper and she just doesn't have the means to provide for him. Sadly, I think this will end in tragedy (going back to the pound) -- but it might be for the best since they aren't a good fit AT ALL....

With that said, I have had a lot of internal struggles with getting a purebred Great Dane -- because all my life we've always rescued mutts. But I DID rescue Minnie (she was just in a purebred Great Dane rescue) and that has made me feel so much better. Ethic arguments aside, it is great getting pretty much exactly what you expected out of a dog. On the off side, I know it only further closes the gene pool.....and that makes me sad.

So I'm torn too...you're not alone.


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## lauren43 (Feb 6, 2011)

I did not mean ppl should stop breeding forever, just for a little bit. Besides I never said reputable breeders should stop breeding. Purebred dogs have their place in the world.

I don't think you are giving mutts enough credit though, they can be great service animals or sporting dogs. But that would be hit or miss, you can't just go to the pound pick out a pup and make them a frisbee dog (or whatever your in to). Which is why ppl turn to purebred dogs that have shown year after what they can do.

Chances are it's not your reputable breeders contributing to overpopulation. Its the BYB's, the uneducated, the ppl who don't care about their animals, and the ppl who breed "designer dogs" or who are simply in it for the money that are the bigger issue. Thankfully breed specific rescues keep many of the purebred dogs out of shelters (at least from what I have seen in this area) or at least they can pull them from shelters. When you walk down a shelter, you don't see rows and rows of purebred Belgin Malinois or Collies or English Mastiffs...you see rows and rows of pit mixes and lab mixes, very few purebred dogs perhaps the occasional GSD or Alaskan Malmute. 

I honestly stand on the fence for everything, breeding, shelters, rescues, spay/neuters...I don't know how to stop it, I know we can't save them all. Seeing all those sad little eyes on euth lists every single day is heartbreaking. Which is why I will do anything in my power to help a dog (even a cat) in need.


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## meggels (May 30, 2010)

minnieme said:


> Pit bull talk aside, I too have had some concerns with purebreds. My heart goes out to all the poor babies in the shelters...but at the same time, I knew EXACTLY what temperament I wanted in my house. My sister went for the cutest pound puppy there, and now she pretty much hates the thing (so sad) because it doesn't mesh at all with her lifestyle. He is insanely energetic and hyper and she just doesn't have the means to provide for him. Sadly, I think this will end in tragedy (going back to the pound) -- but it might be for the best since they aren't a good fit AT ALL....
> 
> With that said, I have had a lot of internal struggles with getting a purebred Great Dane -- because all my life we've always rescued mutts. But I DID rescue Minnie (she was just in a purebred Great Dane rescue) and that has made me feel so much better. Ethic arguments aside, it is great getting pretty much exactly what you expected out of a dog. On the off side, I know it only further closes the gene pool.....and that makes me sad.
> 
> So I'm torn too...you're not alone.


I agree. I have a friend who it is "RESCUE DONT BUY". I do have one rescue dog, and while I love her to pieces, ultimately she's probably not the best fit for me. I would never get rid of her, I could never do that to her. But if I had fast forwarded 2 years and seen where we are, I don't know that I would have adopted her.

My frenchie on the other hand is the *almost* perfect personality for me. And I knew that because of doing research on the breed.


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## Caty M (Aug 13, 2010)

I just want to clarify my earlier post that said I'd be for BSL, I LOVE pits and bullies to death. The ONLY reason I would be for it is if it significantly lowers the number of animals being euthanized. 

I personally think breeding should require a license and a course taken..


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## minnieme (Jul 6, 2011)

Caty M said:


> I just want to clarify my earlier post that said I'd be for BSL, I LOVE pits and bullies to death. The ONLY reason I would be for it is if it significantly lowers the number of animals being euthanized.
> 
> I personally think breeding should require a license and a course taken..


Good idea! I think the same for having kids!


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## catahoulamom (Sep 23, 2010)

I really don't have input on breeding ethics, I mean, I have my ideas, but I've always rescued. I'm not really interested in ever having a dog from a breeder. That being said, I do wish there were more ethical breeders out there and less horrible ones... if I ever wanted a purebred collie or sheltie I would be going to Liz for sure. 

About BSL - here in Miami pit bulls as well as pitty mixes are outlawed. That does NOT stop people from having them (I have one, he is a service dog), unfortunately I think the fact that their illegal it makes them more desirable to the bad people that do horrible things with them. We have SO many at Miami-Dade Animal Services it's disgusting. I'd say (just a guesstimate from looking at their list of dogs every day) about 20-25% of the dogs there are pits or mixes. Since these dogs cannot be adopted in Dade county, almost all of them are euthanized. 

Also, regarding BSL - here in Miami I have seen a pattern. Trashy people who fight their dogs aren't the ones having their dog's taken away. They don't go out in the bad neighborhoods looking for dog fighting rings to bust. It's the people that live in nice neighborhoods with nice dogs who have a nosy neighbor that calls and files a complaint because the dog looked at them wrong. At least this is what I have observed.


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## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

SpooOwner said:


> Thanks for chiming in, Liz. Looking around my neighborhood, there are definitely some people who would have been better off going the breeder route than rescuing. No matter how proud they are of themselves for rescuing, they're not competent (or interested) enough dog owners to deal with an older dog with issues. Not a knock against rescues - just that they're not for everyone, unfortunately.


If someone won't spend the time with a rescue dog to properly train and socialize it, they sure won't do it for a puppy from a breeder. A bad dog owner will be a bad dog owner, no matter where the dog comes from. In my experience, puppies are a heck of a lot more work than an adult dog from a rescue. It's why I get older dogs.


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## angelbears (Jun 9, 2011)

Boy, I'm really up the air on this one. I own a guardian breed that only about 20% of the population should own. They are huge, some are built like a tank, and they hate strangers. Truthfully, I'm part of the 80% that shouldn't own this type of breed. Thankfully, I'm at the stage of my life that I have been able to make drastic changes in my lifestyle to ensure that my dogs are safe and so is society. While I bought from what I think is a reputable breeder, she stressed that these dogs are a guardian breed and take their job very seriously, that I better make sure I'm alpha , ect... Sure, I've owned big dogs all my life, I've never had a problem. I now believe that there are some dogs that the average dog owner should not have. 

While I don't know how many of this breed is in the states,fairly rare, they are not AKC registered, I know that there always seems to be one in a shelter somewhere. Most people are just not qualified to own these wonderful dogs. Should they be outlawed? NO, with the right owners they are terrific companions and will protect their family at any cost. If they want to outlaw dogs, first they need to outlaw guns, alcohol, cars....I can go on and on with that list. What do they have in common irresponsible humans. My neighbor, under 30yrs, has 4 to 6 DWI's, has spent time in the pen, he's out right now. Guess what? I have to worry every night that he is going to round the corner, lose control and crash into my bedroom. NO, your not taking my dog when there are so many other things to worry about. Get those under control then we can talk.


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## DoglovingSenior (Jun 26, 2011)

Bumper Sticker on my car "I]"If you Don't Rescue, Don't Breed - Love me for my whole life" [/I] With a drawing of a Rottie in a Garbage Can. I didn't get into this tonight because i am an APBT & Rottweiler owner & lover of the breed and some of the comments made by some ridiculous owner made my blood boil. The Rape Rack is OFTEN used by fighters - if a fighting dog is in heat. They do not want her to be able to hurt the male. One thing he said is somewhat true-you will not _usually_ see a well-fed APBT in a pit-the dogs look like fighters-scrawny & scarred. I will NEVER agree with BSL because too many breeds of dogs are on the list-so, where does it stop. To control the population of Chis? Who fill shelters in some areas? Let me stop. I can foresee that breeding will one day-not in my lifetime phase itself out of existence - cancer, heart problems, deafness etc. will one day bring it to an end because there is too small a gene pool. I love the Breeds but . . . .


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## DoglovingSenior (Jun 26, 2011)

*Sorry*

The member who posted so much. . . . it is not necessarily his age that leads him to do this. There are just as many older APBT breeders/owners who believe in the "game" dog.


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## RachelsaurusRexU (Sep 4, 2010)

DoglovingSenior said:


> The member who posted so much. . . . it is not necessarily his age that leads him to do this. There are just as many older APBT breeders/owners who believe in the "game" dog.


And they all suck!


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## kevin bradley (Aug 9, 2009)

lauren43 said:


> I did not mean ppl should stop breeding forever, just for a little bit. Besides I never said reputable breeders should stop breeding. Purebred dogs have their place in the world.
> 
> I don't think you are giving mutts enough credit though, they can be great service animals or sporting dogs. But that would be hit or miss, you can't just go to the pound pick out a pup and make them a frisbee dog (or whatever your in to). Which is why ppl turn to purebred dogs that have shown year after what they can do.
> 
> ...


I think Lauren might just be my long lost sister 

This sums up my thoughts. Are reputable breeders to blame for the mess we have in our shelters? Certainly not. 

However, I think they could possibly be part of the solution...maybe slow things down a bit. Where I might differ is this....to say that EVERY adopter is ONLY going to get a pure bred Dog no matter what....so they never contribute to the overpopulation? I'm not sure we can say that and I would say that is very hard to say conclusively. I'm sure SOME WOULD indeed go to their local shelter to save a Dog that is not going to see tommorrow. 

Case in point on the attached... ASPCA says about 25% of shelter Dogs ARE indeed purebreds. And 15-20% of shelter Dogs come from breeders. With 6 million Dogs being euthanized annually, my math says as many as 1.2 million Dogs are euthanized who came into the world at the hands of a breeder.
http://www.aspca.org/about-us/faq/pet-statistics.aspx

Again, good breeders the problem? Of courst not. The evil people who cannot manage the ownership of their Dogs are the problem.


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## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

The problem is that everyone thinks they are a reputable breeder. There's no way to regulate breeding of dogs. If you have a male and female and can put an ad in the paper, you can be a breeder.


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## whiteleo (Sep 7, 2008)

These people are the problem.....................







BSL News: What You Can Do to Fight Bully Breedism
REPORT THIS BREEDING PAGE AS ABUSIVE. They are raping the dogs for profit http://www.facebook.com/groups​/180552111989009/?view=permali​nk&id=234847959892757#!/pages/​The-Dog-House/193879684010302?​sk=wall*The Dog House*


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## Caty M (Aug 13, 2010)

I think it's as bad or worse with cats, too. People at least don't usually let their dogs roam the streets, yet it's commonplace with cats. People don't have a problem with their cats having litter after litter. Much of the shelter cat population is feral.

Getting a purebred dog I *can* understand. There is a huge varience in size, personality etc and if you buy purebred you can get kind of an idea of both. Cats?.. well cats don't vary in size that much. Or personality between breeds. I see no reason NOT to adopt a cat over breeding.

I know someone who keeps getting kittens and once the cat is past the fun stage, dumps it at the shelter. It's selfish and disgusting. I have two older cats I got from the SPCA and couldn't be happier. One was adopted at 10-12ish and one was 2. I am getting a rural acreage in about a year and I might consider getting a few barn cats.. the SPCA here adopts the feral ones out for that purpose.. keeps the mice down but they wouldn't be suitable as a house cat.They will still have a heated barn to sleep in and get food every day etc. Better than being put down after only a week in a cage imo.


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## kevin bradley (Aug 9, 2009)

Caty,

I DID think that way until I saw the statistics at the ASPCA site... they cite the Dog Euthanization rate(about 6 million per year) close to the cat euthanization rate(about 7 million per year)... 

I never would have guessed that Dogs rivaled cats in euthanization rates.

Sickening.


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## Caty M (Aug 13, 2010)

Our city SPCA/pound is no-kill for dogs (obviously barring behavior or health problems) and 'low kill' for cats. Around 20-30%, more in kitten season.

The one thing I like about our SPCA is a requirement of adopting a dog, you have to take an ownership class geared toward that particular dog's issues.

Eg if you have a crazy hyper untrained dog, it goes to Doggie obedience. If you have a dog aggression prone dog, you go to a class for that.

There are probably a lot more feral cats than feral dogs, I guess.


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## lauren43 (Feb 6, 2011)

Small off topic question: if you adopt a feral cat how do you "train" them to stay in your yard? I would think they would just take off.


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## RachelsaurusRexU (Sep 4, 2010)

lauren43 said:


> Small off topic question: if you adopt a feral cat how do you "train" them to stay in your yard? I would think they would just take off.


You don't. Generally, a feral cat will try to return to its colony. The further away a colony is, the higher the chances of kitty being killed on the way  You can try keeping the cat indoors for a long period of time, I'm talking months and months and months, and then letting it out if it really must go out. However, if it's still wild and skittish it's not very likely to come back in. A friend of mine who does TNR has relocated or rehomed cats from colonies who were semi-feral to fairly tame, and even after being kept in for 4+ months, took off, never to be seen again. She won't do it anymore for that reason.


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## whiteleo (Sep 7, 2008)

whiteleo said:


> These people are the problem.....................
> 
> 
> BSL News: What You Can Do to Fight Bully Breedism
> REPORT THIS BREEDING PAGE AS ABUSIVE. They are raping the dogs for profit http://www.facebook.com/groups​/180552111989009/?view=permali​nk&id=234847959892757#!/pages/​The-Dog-House/193879684010302?​sk=wall*The Dog House*


DOES THIS NOT MAKE ANYONE MAD HERE! I'm pretty surprised...........


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## RachelsaurusRexU (Sep 4, 2010)

whiteleo said:


> DOES THIS NOT MAKE ANYONE MAD HERE! I'm pretty surprised...........


On the contrary. It makes me very upset.


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## lauren43 (Feb 6, 2011)

kevin bradley said:


> I think Lauren might just be my long lost sister


I have to agree with you there! We share many of the same views on many of these "hot" topics!!!



whiteleo said:


> DOES THIS NOT MAKE ANYONE MAD HERE! I'm pretty surprised...........


I wasn't going to look. But I did. Its frickin' DIS-gusting! I really believe these ppl think they are doing right by these dogs. It just annoys the crap out of me. They have puppies out on chains bigger then they are. They post that the female is pregnant AGAIN! Sick sick sick...It really makes me want to cry!


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## Tobi (Mar 18, 2011)

whiteleo said:


> DOES THIS NOT MAKE ANYONE MAD HERE! I'm pretty surprised...........


This tbh enrages me, and the fact that they have it all on FB for everybody to see, and people buy these dogs from them that are raised out in the dirt on chains... 

Don't get me wrong PB's and many bullies like to just hang out outside, so i don't have a problem with the chaining like some do... but the breeding is sickening, and shouldn't be allowed, i'm curious at how many litters that bitch has had...


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