# Too high protein?



## moon (Jul 15, 2010)

I have a co worker who is having a lot of problems with her 3 Jack Russells and allergies... (She was currently feeding Beneful and Pedigree) I finally talked her into trying a higher quality dog food - (Taste of the Wild since we have a Tractor Supply Co. that sells it). 

Then this guy who sells something called "Sportsman's Choice" told her it was too high in protein and she would ruin her dog's liver! 

Does anyone have any links to websites explaining about the protein in the different dog foods? 

Will the higher protein really hurt a dog?


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## ruckusluvr (Oct 28, 2009)

high protein will not hurt a healthy dog.
if the dog already has liver problems, a high protein diet is not a good choice.

i bet she will find that her jacks have much more energy on Taste of the Wild (TOTW) than they have ever had on other foods because of the protein. so more exercise might be required.
the people i practice agility with, and the trainer all call it "rocket fuel" for dogs. :biggrin:

plus, you are not going to find a good dog food that isnt high in protein like that.


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## RawFedDogs (Jun 16, 2008)

High plant based protein is not good for any dog, healthy or not.

High animal based protein will have no detrimental effect on a dog's liver, healthy or not.

The better high protein foods derive most of their protein from animals.

I can't think of any web pages that talk about this. I think B-naturals has one.

The early research that convinced people of the myth of high protein damaging dog's liver was done on rats which are omnivores and their digestive system works entirely different than dogs which are carnivores. Rat's bodies are not designed to handle high protein the way dogs are. I am not aware of any research on dogs that points to high protein damaging dog's liver.


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## Doc (Jan 17, 2009)

My liver might be bad, but it ain't from eating high proteins! :redface:


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## buddy97 (Mar 29, 2010)

RawFedDogs said:


> High plant based protein is not good for any dog, healthy or not.
> 
> High animal based protein will have no detrimental effect on a dog's liver, healthy or not.
> 
> ...


i might be mistaken here, but in addition to using rodents, i believe the source of most of the protein was corn gluten, so it was pretty invalid regarding canines and high protein from meat on two fronts.


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## GermanSheperdlover (Nov 15, 2009)

Read this carefully because some people HERE have posted about *meals*, and they are totally wrong. It's sad when people post about something they know so little about.

Ingredient groups - what to look for and what to avoid
Protein

Protein, in the form of quality meat ingredients, is the most important component of a dog's diet. As animals with a carnivorous background, their digestive tract is designed to utilize primarily meat and fat. It is also the most expensive ingredient for a manufacturer to buy and the profit margin on a product is drastically affected by the amount and quality used. Ideally, the first ingredient of a food should be either a specified meat meal, or a specified fresh meat type followed by a meal. If your individual dog's specific needs limit you to using foods that do not include a concentrated source of meat in meal form, I highly recommend supplementing with fresh or canned meats on a daily basis.

* Generically named sources of protein or fat (animal ___, meat ___, poultry ___, etc.) are never present in truly high quality products because they are derived from highly questionable sources. If a manufacturer uses quality ingredients and has nothing to hide, there is no need for generic names.
* Byproducts of any type are less desirable and only acceptable if they do not make up the main source of animal protein and if the name of the species used is also defined in some manner (e.g. "chicken byproducts" or "beef byproducts" but not "meat byproducts" or "poultry byproducts"). Byproducts consist of anything but the quality cuts of meat and highest quality edible offal used for human consumption. What this means (on a market with high demand for human snacks like "buffalo wings" and cheaper pet foods requiring flavoring agents like beef or chicken liver digest to make otherwise uninteresting food more attractive), I leave to your imagination.
* Contrary to what many people believe, meat sources in "meal" form (as long as they are from a specified type of animal, such as chicken meal, lamb meal, salmon meal etc.) are not inferior to whole, fresh meats. Meals consist of meat and skin, with or without the bones, but exclusive of feathers/hair, heads, feet, horns, entrails etc. and have the proper calcium/phosphorus ratio required for a balanced diet. They have had most of the moisture removed, but meats in their original, "wet" form still contain up to 75% water. Once the food reaches its final moisture content of about 9-12%, the meat will have shrunk to sometimes as little as 1/4 of the original amount, while the already dehydrated meal form remains the same and you get more concentrated protein per pound of finished product. This means that in the worst case you are left with only 4 ounces of actual meat content per pound of fresh meat included in a dry kibble, many of which contain less than one pound of meat per 2-3 pounds of grain to begin with. Preferably a food contains quality meat meal as well as some fresh meat.
The Dog Food Project - Identifying better products


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## buddy97 (Mar 29, 2010)

GermanSheperdlover said:


> * Contrary to what many people believe, meat sources in "meal" form (as long as they are from a specified type of animal, such as chicken meal, lamb meal, salmon meal etc.) are not inferior to whole, fresh meats. Meals consist of meat and skin, with or without the bones, [/url]


 

there are quite a few definitions of named meat meals that get thrown around. i maintain that there are lots of different qualities of named meat meals. some believe they are all made of very little meat and lots of bone and whatever little meat gets scraped off the bone after the good meat is removed. while i am not under the illusion that named meat meals can truly be all muscle meat, i believe some will contain more of it than others.

i think most people here understand that named meats are going to include more quality meat to start out with, but also understand that they will never make up a significant portion of any kibble. (well, they could, but that would be a $150+ bag of dog food).


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## kclime (Jul 17, 2010)

Okay, so I have a degree in animal science (no, no vet school for me) and from what I learned in my nutrition courses, which used Small Animal Clinical Nutrition as a reference text, the recommended protein levels for an average adult dog are between 20-30% of the food's dry matter basis. To find dry matter basis protein level for your food, subtract the moisture percentage from 100 (most foods are around 10% moisture) then divide your protein percentage by the remaining "dry" percentage and move the decimal right 2 places. So for a 35% protein food with 10% moisture, the dmb for protein would be 38.8%. This exceeds the dmb range of 20-30% - which studies have shown can cause and/or exacerbate KIDNEY disease, not liver. I choose to feed my dog within the key nutritional factors (knf) guidelines set by the Small Animal Clinical Nutrition text, but if you choose to feed a higher protein food, I strongly recommend annual blood work to monitor kidney function - though even then, kidney failure is usually undetectable until 2/3 of the kidneys have stopped working.

Also, as a side note, dogs are not true carnivores. Cats are true carnivores.


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## RawFedDogs (Jun 16, 2008)

kclime said:


> Okay, so I have a degree in animal science (no, no vet school for me) and from what I learned in my nutrition courses, which used Small Animal Clinical Nutrition as a reference text, the recommended protein levels for an average adult dog are between 20-30% of the food's dry matter basis.


There appears to be something you might have overlooked here. It seems Small Animal Clinical Nutrition was written by the founder of Science Diet, Mark Morris, Sr. and his son Mark Morris, Jr. Don't you think if one owned a dog food company, one would write a book that would back up one's product? Can you see him writing a book saying things that Science Diet were doing were all wrong and you shouldn't buy their product? The informatin in his book is highly suspect particularly because of the high quality of Science Diet dog foods.

How many nutrition courses did you take that used this book as a reference and in what school was it?



> This exceeds the dmb range of 20-30% - which studies have shown can cause and/or exacerbate KIDNEY disease, not liver.


I have seen pancreas, kidney and liver problems inaccurately attributed to high protein. High protein doesn't cause problems with any of them. 



> I choose to feed my dog within the key nutritional factors (knf) guidelines set by the Small Animal Clinical Nutrition text,


So you feed Science Diet?



> Also, as a side note, dogs are not true carnivores. Cats are true carnivores.


If they are not carnivores, what are they? Omnivores? What physical characteristics of a dog point to them not being a carnivore? I can give you 7 or 8 that point to them being nothing but a carnivore.

Just a couple of side notes:
Here is a quote from Mark Morris Sr. from the book in question ... _“Some question exists regarding the need of dogs and cats for dietary carbohydrate. From a practical sense, the answer to this question is of little importance because there are carbohydrates in most food ingredients used in commercially prepared dog foods.”_

And a quote from The Waltham Book of Companion Animal Nutrition: “_There is no known minimum dietary requirement for carbohydrate….”_

Seems this would make a dog a carnivore, huh? :smile:


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## buddy97 (Mar 29, 2010)

kclime said:


> So for a 35% protein food with 10% moisture, the dmb for protein would be 38.8%. This exceeds the dmb range of 20-30% - which studies have shown can cause and/or exacerbate KIDNEY disease, not liver. .


do you have a link to said study ( or studies)?

id be interested to read them.

thanks.


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## Doc (Jan 17, 2009)

This is serious problem in higher education today. Students are spoon fed information and never question the authorities. They take the information as the only "truth", memorize it, regurgitate it back to the professor on an exam and pass with flying colors.

A hundred years ago, we were taught to analyze every statement. To investigate if you had questions; to question all authority; and learn throughout the process.

What's this world coming to? I had a vet tell a client that feeding raw will cause a plethora of internal problems with her pup and told her to feed it puppy chow. Why? Because that is what they taught him in school ...:redface:


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

Doc said:


> This is serious problem in higher education today. Students are spoon fed information and never question the authorities. They take the information as the only "truth", memorize it, regurgitate it back to the professor on an exam and pass with flying colors.
> 
> A hundred years ago, we were taught to analyze every statement. To investigate if you had questions; to question all authority; and learn throughout the process.
> 
> What's this world coming to? I had a vet tell a client that feeding raw will cause a plethora of internal problems with her pup and told her to feed it puppy chow. Why? Because that is what they taught him in school ...:redface:


come on, doc....it was a serious problem back in my day, too....and that was a million years ago...

some of us got lucky if we had a prof who said use your senses, you idiots....but mostly, we regurgitated what we read and saw on grand rounds and were fed by older than us docs....

vets? same deal....

they're just throwing at their patients that which they were taught...man, there was a vet school, university of pennsylvania...renowned throughout the world....killed alydar, but that's another story..and the vets who came out when i came out of medical school were just as uninformed and ignorant as they were going in. it's a wonder we didn't kill more people and animals....

maybe g'd takes care of fools, drunks and docs/vets


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## Doc (Jan 17, 2009)

May that's why I had such a battle in school! LOL I didn't believe anything I was told and always had to ask the unaskable questions. Oh well, I was a mule back then and I'm a bigger and older mule now!


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## RawFedDogs (Jun 16, 2008)

Me too!! Anything I was taught or am taught today must pass the logic test. If it doesn't make logical sense to me, I ask questions until either it makes sense or I dismiss it.


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## DaneMama (Jun 27, 2008)

I had two professors in school that taught me to question what I read and think logically. I took many classes from these two women (actually traveled to the amazon and galapagos islands with them for a class) and learned more from them than anyone else in school. I particularly am grateful that they taught me how to read scientific studies and actually see what they were saying amongst all the jargon and big words. Most of the time big scientific studies have at least a few major flaws and must be dismissed, but there are people who take the results from these studies as fact.


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## Doc (Jan 17, 2009)

True to form, I'm still a pain in everyone's rear-end. No comment from you RFD!


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## RawFedDogs (Jun 16, 2008)

Doc said:


> True to form, I'm still a pain in everyone's rear-end. No comment from you RFD!


I made a comment 2 posts up. :smile: Or are you looking for a comment bout you being a pain? :biggrin:


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