# The Truth About Corn?



## Guest

Ever since I became a dog owner and doing research on various brands of dog food for my rescued dogs (all of the dogs I have owned as an adult have been and continue to be rescues) I learned that there are basically 4 things to be avoided when choosing a kibble: Corn, Wheat, Soy, and Gluten.

However, since reviewing the Whole Dog Journal's recent 2011 List of Approved Foods, I came across a couple of companies I hadn't heard about, and continued to explore.

Here is an article I found about Corn which I thought was interesting. Just wanted to share.

PHDPRODUCTS.COM

Of course it doesn't mean that I'm going to start adding Corn to my dogs' diet but it is an interesting article just the same.


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## practicalfeeder

LabbieMama said:


> Ever since I became a dog owner and doing research on various brands of dog food for my rescued dogs (all of the dogs I have owned as an adult have been and continue to be rescues) I learned that there are basically 4 things to be avoided when choosing a kibble: Corn, Wheat, Soy, and Gluten.
> 
> However, since reviewing the Whole Dog Journal's recent 2011 List of Approved Foods, I came across a couple of companies I hadn't heard about, and continued to explore.
> 
> Here is an article I found about Corn which I thought was interesting. Just wanted to share.
> 
> PHDPRODUCTS.COM
> 
> Of course it doesn't mean that I'm going to start adding Corn to my dogs' diet but it is an interesting article just the same.



People with multiple dogs, or that compete, have known for years that corn is a very valuable part of a dog's diet. There is no truth to the internet blabber that it causes allergies. It has been studied to death by every major vet school and whole grain corn is no more allergenic than rice. The link you provided is incorrect, however, Grade #2 is not "feed grade". Grade #2 is human grade but has more broken kernels. 

There is a "feed grade" corn but it is called "feed grade" or "livestock feed grade" or #4,5,6

That is the truth, the science, for whomever has the brains to think objectively.


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## PUNKem733

LabbieMama said:


> Ever since I became a dog owner and doing research on various brands of dog food for my rescued dogs (all of the dogs I have owned as an adult have been and continue to be rescues) I learned that there are basically 4 things to be avoided when choosing a kibble: Corn, Wheat, Soy, and Gluten.
> 
> However, since reviewing the Whole Dog Journal's recent 2011 List of Approved Foods, I came across a couple of companies I hadn't heard about, and continued to explore.
> 
> Here is an article I found about Corn which I thought was interesting. Just wanted to share.
> 
> PHDPRODUCTS.COM
> 
> Of course it doesn't mean that I'm going to start adding Corn to my dogs' diet but it is an interesting article just the same.


How did you find it interesting, as it's all a marketing gimmick for a dog food with whole corn in it's third ingredients. 



> Premium-grade corn is one of the best sources of skin and coat conditioners. It is also an excellent source of amylase, a much-needed enzyme for the proper digestion of carbohydrates. Without amylase, much of what animals eat will not benefit them and may cause dramatic weight loss. Premium-grade corn is also an excellent source of carbohydrates, protein and fatty acids, which provide additional energy.


Are these people joking? I thought it was a comedy routine after reading the page. I wonder how all these raw fed dogs survive? I wonder how dogs fed the Orijens, Evos, and other A+ kibbles without corn survive? I know, it must be because we are practitioners of black magic. I personally perform a voodoo sacrifice over my dog's food before I feed him with the blood of a freshly killed chicken, and sprinkle the powdered bones of a three breasted witch!!:heh:

DOGS DON'T NEED TO BE ABLE TO PROCESS CARBS BECAUSE THEY DON'T NEED CARBS! Reading that page, you'd think dogs would be dead within a matter of days without corn.Hell Human can't digest corn, why do you think you see whole corn in our stools?

Wonderful we got unpractical feeder now salivating, pointing at us, and saying, "see, see I told you".


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## stajbs

Go Punkem...love the last line. These posts are getting annoying, however as someone else said I will no longer feed the troll.


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## PUNKem733

stajbs said:


> Go Punkem...love the last line. These posts are getting annoying, however as someone else said I will no longer feed the troll.


Yup that's exactly right, ignoring this thing is the best way to do things. Sooner or later it will get banned, and we can flush it's memory away like so much used toilet paper.


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## Caty M

My sheltie's breeder does competitive flyball and agility at national level.. and has won a few times. The dogs are also working herding sheepdogs. She feeds Orijen.

I can play nothing but chuck-it fetch with my dog, who's seven months, for three straight hours and he is barely tired at the end. He eats raw.

No corn in either diet!


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## Caty M

Mr Feeder, you are not a nutritionist either!


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## CavePaws

PUNKem733 said:


> Hell Human can't digest corn, why do you think you see whole corn in our stools?.


I thought about saying that a few days ago when I posted here. >__>

I don't like talking about human poop too much though. <__<


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## kevin bradley

This lady IS a Dog Nutritionist and wrote "The Dog Food Project" which many are familiar with. Based on her analysis, corn isn't the devil that some make it out to be. 

Interesting.

What's wrong with corn?


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## Caty M

I don't think corn is the devil. I think corn is just one of many species inappropriate foods added to dog food to keep costs down.


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## Guest

Let me make myself clear. I do not post on here very often, nor do I come to this site very often, either. I DID NOT post this article as an attempt to "feed the trolls". From now on, I will no longer be posting here because every time I do, I get blasted by folks like Punkem who think I should not be allowed to post any articles of interest.

For what it's worth. I have done my research. I discovered through trial and error what really works for my dogs. My dogs get pre-made raw every morning and kibble at night. The kibble I am feeding now is Dogswell Nutrisca which is grain-free, potato-free, low glycemic, and does not contain any of the 4 ingredients mentioned in my original post. 

I'm done on here. I have nothing else to say.


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## PUNKem733

I never thought of corn as a super bad thing, but dogs don't need it. I have no clue why you'd prepare a home cooked meal, and put corn into it. I always say, if your dog loves veggies including corn, and they aren't adversely affected, feed it, but they will get no or very little nutritional benefits out of it.


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## PUNKem733

LabbieMama said:


> Let me make myself clear. I do not post on here very often, nor do I come to this site very often, either. I DID NOT post this article as an attempt to "feed the trolls". From now on, I will no longer be posting here because every time I do, I get blasted by folks like Punkem who think I should not be allowed to post any articles of interest.
> 
> For what it's worth. I have done my research. I discovered through trial and error what really works for my dogs. My dogs get pre-made raw every morning and kibble at night. The kibble I am feeding now is Dogswell Nutrisca which is grain-free, potato-free, low glycemic, and does not contain any of the 4 ingredients mentioned in my original post.
> 
> I'm done on here. I have nothing else to say.



I never blasted you, I asked you how you found it interesting since it's from a dog food manufacturer. My venom was directed at that page, and what is obviously a marketing gimmick. I thought at least it may be an independent study, then I find out it's from a dog food company who's third ingredient is whole corn.


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## PUNKem733

Hmmm there's that wind again. I better close a window before I catch a disease.:happy:


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## Caty M

Lol. Wow. People who cannot engage in a friendly discussion or debate without resorting to name calling should not be posting at all! :wink:

What, Practicalfeeder, are YOUR qualifications? Obviously you must have some to be calling us all morons?

I as well disregard any 'scientific proof' coming from someone who has a financial interest.


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## CavePaws

I'm not going to lie. I just keep giggling at these comments you guys are making. It's hilarious. Not the situation, just the way it's being handled. I think it's being handled pretty well now. 

^ - what i just said there only pertains to the comments being made towards "the wind", I won't even address them by their username any more. anywho, Labbiemama, I hope you find that no one is trying to bash you for what you're saying and good on you for feeding a good food with less fillers to your dogs.


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## kevin bradley

LabbieMama said:


> Let me make myself clear. I do not post on here very often, nor do I come to this site very often, either. I DID NOT post this article as an attempt to "feed the trolls". From now on, I will no longer be posting here because every time I do, I get blasted by folks like Punkem who think I should not be allowed to post any articles of interest.
> 
> For what it's worth. I have done my research. I discovered through trial and error what really works for my dogs. My dogs get pre-made raw every morning and kibble at night. The kibble I am feeding now is Dogswell Nutrisca which is grain-free, potato-free, low glycemic, and does not contain any of the 4 ingredients mentioned in my original post.
> 
> I'm done on here. I have nothing else to say.


LM,

Don't leave just because someone pisses you off. Whenever I get pissed at someone online, I think about President Obama. Christ, people hate the man...with venom. He'd never wake up if he let it bother him. 

What I DON'T get sometimes in these debates is this... how people can be so SURE that what they are saying is perfectly correct. Science and conclusions are not always black and white. This corn thing is a good example. People are out on these message boards running rampant portraying corn as the devil, harmful to your Dogs, etc... It took me about one second to find a lady who did some pretty EXTENSIVE work in analyzing Dog food in the Dog Food Project who would probably argue the point. 

I'm not saying who's right on corn. What I AM saying is that I'm not sure anyone else knows for certain either. 

Should corn be the first ingredient in a Dog food? I'm making an educated GUESS that says NO, it probably shouldn't be. Can it be part of an ingredient list that offers something to our Dogs? Hell, I don't know. Maybe. Possibly.


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## Caty M

The way I look at it is.. the best dog food should as closely mirror a dog's natural diet as possible. That's why I would say go for Orijen over cheaper brands. If a dog's diet is basically 100% meat, the more meat content the better. I do agree that the herbs and berries added in are more of a gimmick than anything and are not needed.

*Corn, or any grain, is not a natural part of a dogs diet and therefore I wouldn't recommend a food containing them.*


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## kevin bradley

bishopthesheltie said:


> The way I look at it is.. the best dog food should as closely mirror a dog's natural diet as possible. That's why I would say go for Orijen over cheaper brands. If a dog's diet is basically 100% meat, the more meat content the better. I do agree that the herbs and berries added in are more of a gimmick than anything and are not needed.
> 
> *Corn, or any grain, is not a natural part of a dogs diet and therefore I wouldn't recommend a food containing them.*



Bish,

I tend to agree. And my gutt tells me that Orijen is probably the best dry food available. 

I also would think that Corn doesn't serve much of a purpose to a Dogs diet...but then I stumble on the link from the Dog Food Project and I start scratching my head in confusion...

Hell, I had 2 Dogs live to 15 and 19 years and one of them was a ROTTWEILER for pete's sake. They ate a corn based diet most of their life...Pedigree. Yuck.


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## wags

Corn is a carb. You get my point Carb corn is BAD!!!!!Along with potato which is not that bad a carb right! There are carbs that are not great in some of the grain inclusive foods.:yuck: So isnt this why alot of us here are doing the grain free foods?:smile: At least I think it is.:amen: 

Jeeze Louise ~~Labbiemama just copied and pasted and article ~~she didnt write it ~~just put it out there for all to view. I really dont think her intension was to give troll like people free range. Just opened up a view for discussion. "eh its done its over now we can all move on with other topics! 
Labbiemama take it with a grain of salt throw it over your shoulder and just jump right back on board! Water under the bridge!!!!!!!


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## cprcheetah

Corn isn't an appropriate ingredient for Carnivores. Heck it's not an appropriate ingredient for humans either. We don't digest it, why would we expect our carnivore canines to do differently? Corn also causes chronic inflammation, and elevates blood glucose. My own personal Dr told me/my hubby to avoid it at all costs, and since we have cut it out of our diet, we both have more energy, aren't as sick all the time, and both have lost weight. It just isn't an appropriate food for anyone except chickens IMO. A lot of food companies write articles etc about how wonderful corn is and how they make it so it's a viable protein source, but I just don't agree with them. JMO and observations. Any food product that comes out the same way it went in.....shouldn't be eaten.


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## Serendipity

There is the allergy problem, but I don't see a problem with corn as long as the amounts are low. All the supermarket brands are churning out generic fat glazed cornmeal, because it's cheap and ups the protein levels.


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## GermanSheperdlover

Dogs have a very tough time digesting corn. Their digestive system is much shorter than ours. Heck, we humans can not digest corn very well and our system is more capable of doing so. Corn is really just a cheap filler and dogs get NO or very few nutrients from it. That is why they "may" or "can" get allergies from corn.

The Dog Food Project - Ingredients to avoid


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## GermanSheperdlover

If you go to the bottom of this article she gives the reason why corn is bad,,, and other ingredients. This lady is the best on the net in my book.

The Dog Food Project - The Yuck Factor


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## PUNKem733

Serendipity said:


> There is the allergy problem, but I don't see a problem with corn as long as the amounts are low. All the supermarket brands are churning out generic fat glazed cornmeal, because it's cheap and ups the protein levels.


That protein is plant based, so dogs don't utilize it. 




GermanSheperdlover said:


> If you go to the bottom of this article she gives the reason why corn is bad,,, and other ingredients. This lady is the best on the net in my book.
> 
> The Dog Food Project - The Yuck Factor


You read that, then she goes and says this, as Kevin pointed out.

What's wrong with corn?


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## bumblegoat

But isn't it just the surface of the corn kernel that humans can't digest? It might look like whole corn kernels when it comes out, but if you look closely you can actually see that the inside of the kernel is... well, brown. Humans can digest the inside of the kernel just fine.

Handling human feces is a part of my job, so I have had the eh, _pleasure_ to see it up close. :biggrin1:


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## wags

bumblegoat said:


> Handling human feces is a part of my job, so I have had the eh, _pleasure_ to see it up close. :biggrin1:


alright this caught my attention! :yuck:What do you do? ainkiller:


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## xxshaelxx

I just wanna say one thing...

Every time I see a dog fed a food with corn in it, their poo is giant, beyond all reckoning, disgustingly stinky, and orange...tinged that color by the undigested corn that makes up about 90% of that poo. That's all I need to know that corn isn't a good ingredient in a dog's diet.


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## bumblegoat

wags said:


> alright this caught my attention! :yuck:What do you do? ainkiller:


I work part time at a nursing home for the elderly... Which includes having to change old people's diapers. hwell:


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## Mia

xxshaelxx said:


> I just wanna say one thing...
> 
> Every time I see a dog fed a food with corn in it, their poo is giant, beyond all reckoning, disgustingly stinky, and orange...tinged that color by the undigested corn that makes up about 90% of that poo. That's all I need to know that corn isn't a good ingredient in a dog's diet.


Right on!ainkiller:


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## kevin bradley

GermanSheperdlover said:


> If you go to the bottom of this article she gives the reason why corn is bad,,, and other ingredients. This lady is the best on the net in my book.
> 
> The Dog Food Project - The Yuck Factor


GSL, 

I'm working thru her entire analysis right now. Following is a quote from her... its listed on this page... http://www.dogfoodproject.com/index.php?page=betterproducts

Corn often gets an undeserved bad reputation. While it is not acceptable as a main source of protein in a dog food (as it is used in combination with corn gluten), as a source of carbohydrates it is no better and no worse than other grains in terms of nutritional value and digestibility. The starch part of corn is highly digestible but the whole ground product has a higher fiber content than other grains (around 7%), which results in slightly larger stools - often incorrectly interpreted as lack of digestibility. Unless an individual dog is intolerant or allergic to corn, there is no need to avoid products which include it in reasonable amounts

You can see why I'm a bit uncertain why many on this board are saying it is not DIGESTABLE. 

I don't have an issue with people stating opinions. But we're getting into a more fact based discussion here and people are making comments I'm not sure are accurate.


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## Serendipity

PUNKem733 said:


> That protein is plant based, so dogs don't utilize it.
> 
> Yes, but I believe they can still list it on the guaranteed analysis. I'm sure if they couldn't, the protein would be much lower. I don't expect dogs to utilize anything plant-based, so that it why I think corn is fine in lower amounts. I don't think corn is any worse than any other plant filler/binder in the same quantity. But, in most cases, it's in a much higher quantity, giving dogs gigantic stools.


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## cast71

Any grain is bad for living creatures. It sits in the gut and ferments. It does eventually digest, but not after causing all sorts of havoc. Simply put, grains cause bad bacteria, when they sit and ferment in your gut. There not even fit for farm animal feeds. :ban: My problem is I like italian food too much. I cheat sometimes;0)


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## Serendipity

xxshaelxx said:


> I just wanna say one thing...
> 
> Every time I see a dog fed a food with corn in it, their poo is giant, beyond all reckoning, disgustingly stinky, and orange...tinged that color by the undigested corn that makes up about 90% of that poo. That's all I need to know that corn isn't a good ingredient in a dog's diet.


I'm not crazy about any grains, but I don't think the stools would get any smaller if we replaced all the corn, in let's say, Ol' Roy, with barley. I think quantity is the real problem.


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## wags

bumblegoat said:


> I work part time at a nursing home for the elderly... Which includes having to change old people's diapers. hwell:


Kudos to you! :biggrin:That is a wonderful job to have, and so nice to be with elderly folk! They are so sweet aren't they ~ ok well some of them are!!!! And you must have awesome patience! I really commend you for working with them at this stage in their life.


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## PUNKem733

PUNKem733 said:


> How did you find it interesting, as it's all a marketing gimmick for a dog food with whole corn in it's third ingredients.
> 
> 
> 
> Are these people joking? I thought it was a comedy routine after reading the page. I wonder how all these raw fed dogs survive? I wonder how dogs fed the Orijens, Evos, and other A+ kibbles without corn survive? I know, it must be because we are practitioners of black magic. I personally perform a voodoo sacrifice over my dog's food before I feed him with the blood of a freshly killed chicken, and sprinkle the powdered bones of a three breasted witch!!:heh:
> 
> DOGS DON'T NEED TO BE ABLE TO PROCESS CARBS BECAUSE THEY DON'T NEED CARBS! Reading that page, you'd think dogs would be dead within a matter of days without corn.Hell Human can't digest corn, why do you think you see whole corn in our stools?
> 
> Wonderful we got unpractical feeder now salivating, pointing at us, and saying, "see, see I told you".


This is my post in response to the thread. I wonder if this is blasting someone?

This is the PM I receive 2 days later.



LabbieMama said:


> You really need to get a life and stop pestering kibble feeders on the kibble forum. you feed raw, that's fine, stay over there in the raw section and make good use of your "expertise". Why do you come to the kibble section all the time and blast kibble feeders? You have way too much time on your hands. you need to get a real life. I don't find it surprising at all that no one has hired you, it's your attitude that stinks. I find you extremely annoying and I'm not the only one. Get a life is all i can say to you and leave us kibble feeders alone.
> Corn has been in dog food for centuries, it's only been the last several years that corn has been removed. I am entitled to post articles of interest in the kibble section where i feel it would benefit fellow kibble feeders. If you have no use for the article or just want to kill some time, don't bother blasting anyone.
> Again, you just need to get a life and get a job.
> Good luck to you.


Thicker skin will take you a long way.


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## GermanSheperdlover

It is digestable, it is just "very hard" for dogs to digest it. The same does with humans. I really can't see why it is in dog food, it's a filler and that's it. I know you might have seen and read these articles but if you haven't take a look pretty good in my book. And notice it says ""Once the food clears the stomach, however, the food travels through the rest of the dog’s digestive system much more quickly than it does in yours because the dog’s intestines are only about 5% as long as yours."" Please read the first one I think then many people will understand. Great article !!!


Doggies.com | Your Dog’s Digestive System

Dog's digestive system - Google Search


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## KittyKat

PUNKem733 said:


> This is my post in response to the thread. I wonder if this is blasting someone?
> 
> This is the PM I receive 2 days later.
> 
> 
> 
> Thicker skin will take you a long way.


I'd like to know exactly where on this planet people have been feeding dogs corn for centuries? I mean, it wasn't until recently that we even began feeding dogs kibble... before that it was table scraps and bits from the butcher...


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## GermanSheperdlover

kevin bradley said:


> GSL,
> 
> I'm working thru her entire analysis right now. Following is a quote from her... its listed on this page... The Dog Food Project - Identifying better products
> 
> Corn often gets an undeserved bad reputation. While it is not acceptable as a main source of protein in a dog food (as it is used in combination with corn gluten), as a source of carbohydrates it is no better and no worse than other grains in terms of nutritional value and digestibility. The starch part of corn is highly digestible but the whole ground product has a higher fiber content than other grains (around 7%), which results in slightly larger stools - often incorrectly interpreted as lack of digestibility. Unless an individual dog is intolerant or allergic to corn, there is no need to avoid products which include it in reasonable amounts
> 
> You can see why I'm a bit uncertain why many on this board are saying it is not DIGESTABLE.
> 
> I don't have an issue with people stating opinions. But we're getting into a more fact based discussion here and people are making comments I'm not sure are accurate.


She says this,"" In my opinion a dog is more likely to develop allergies on a poor quality diet, which contains common feed grade components like corn, soy meal, wheat byproducts, beef byproducts, generic"". I think what most people don't realize is that there is 19 different types of corn grown in the USA. Don't think for one second that the corn in dog food is anything like what we eat. They (dogs) get the feed grade like she says. The feed grade grows faster and produces more. It isn't anything like what we grow here in Washington State.


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## GermanSheperdlover

PUNKem733 said:


> This is my post in response to the thread. I wonder if this is blasting someone?
> 
> This is the PM I receive 2 days later.
> 
> 
> 
> Thicker skin will take you a long way.


I happen to agree with her a 1000%.. The raw feeders do more damage to this area then anyone or anything. Actually I have requested that this section be seperate from the raw section and have a whole different sign in and moderators. If you fed raw thats great, it's your choice BUT, I also think that if I want to fed kibble thats my choice and I feel no one has the authority to try and sway me to do anything that I don't want to do. *It's like the bible thumper coming to your door every day. It gets old.* It's not a bash on anyone, but I think in some cases the poster should keep that in mind, if the poster is feeding raw. I add lots of meat to my dogs diet but I have always and well always continue to feed Kibble. Now in my case I just try to feed what I feel is the best kibble. LOL, which I think is Orijen. But I have tried many other top brands, when I say top brands, I mean high quality brands.


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## GermanSheperdlover

KittyKat said:


> I'd like to know exactly where on this planet people have been feeding dogs corn for centuries? I mean, it wasn't until recently that we even began feeding dogs kibble... before that it was table scraps and bits from the butcher...


True, Buuut I am pretty old and my family (in the 50's) always had and we always fed kibble back then. Now, no guessing, how old, this old goat is.


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## xxshaelxx

GermanSheperdlover said:


> I happen to agree with her a 1000%.. The raw feeders do more damage to this area then anyone or anything. Actually I have requested that this section be seperate from the raw section and have a whole different sign in and moderators. If you fed raw thats great, it's your choice BUT, I also think that if I want to fed kibble thats my choice and I feel no one has the authority to try and sway me to do anything that I don't want to do. *It's like the bible thumper coming to your door every day. It gets old.* It's not a bash on anyone, but I think in some cases the poster should keep that in mind, if the poster is feeding raw. I add lots of meat to my dogs diet but I have always and well always continue to feed Kibble. Now in my case I just try to feed what I feel is the best kibble. LOL, which I think is Orijen. But I have tried many other top brands, when I say top brands, I mean high quality brands.


Ummm...nowhere in her post did I see where Punkem733 tried to shove raw down anyone's throats. She was making a point by saying that this article implies dogs NEED corn and would die without it, and yet our dogs, that are on raw, or even dogs that are on Orijen, Evo, etc., are still here. Personally, I think that the kibble feeders are just looking for excuses to single out the raw feeders, because I've NEVER got the impression that the raw feeders are trying to shove their way down others' throats, just MAKING POINTS! And this is a forum (if you haven't noticed), that's allowed.

And for your information, kibble feeders have done it to the raw feeders as well, jumping in on their threads and trying to MAKE POINTS about kibble.


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## PUNKem733

LOL I never shove raw down anyone's throat, although it is superior, I feed kibble. That's what confused me about the PM. Reading the PM, you'd think I go out of my way to call her/him every name in the book.


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## jiml

Corn isn't an appropriate ingredient for Carnivores. Heck it's not an appropriate ingredient for humans either>>>>>

I havent read any works by any reputable dietitian or Dr. that says avoid corn? not even "radical" physicians such as ornish, fuhrman, or at the other end atkins agrees with you or your Doctor. Corn is partially digested but Humans can not digest any plant cell walls, corn kernals are small enough to be un chewed therefore they show in your poo (note that undigested plant roughage is a good thing in the human diet) . In dog food many times the corn has been "gelatinized" and research has shown that in this state it is very well digested. Yucky-yes good for the dog -questionable. but well digested.


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