# Varieties of Raw Diets



## Bessie7o7 (Jan 1, 2010)

I have Notice through this forum and talking to people that thier are many varieties of the Raw Diet. 

I know most on this forum Prefer the PMR style Diet. But with so many different styles it gets confusing at times. 

I met a Gentleman at a local "Dog Event" who had a booth set up for Raw Diets. I breifly talked with him and got his email so I could ask him questions about local places to buy meat, vets that are pro raw, and other Raw related topics. In My email I told him I was most interested in the PMR Diet and its based off an 8-1-1 ratio of Meat-bones-organs. The Gentleman responded by answering my questions as best he could while mentioning he did not know of the PMR style. This is a quote from his response "I’m not sure what you mean by the “PMR diet.” Most of us that feed raw refer to it as a BARF diet. BARF has many definitions including Bones and Raw Food, Biologically Appropriate Real Food (my personal choice). In any case, the 80-10-10 ratio you refer to is far too light on bone (should be between 30-50%) and the bone should be Raw Meaty Bone (RMB) – soft bones. Hard bones, like rib and leg bones are for ‘entertainment’ and not the best for quick calcium uptake like soft neck bones." This sounds like too much bone.

On the other hand I have also heard people say that if your going to feed raw you have to buy pre-made. Either becuase of the bones or maybe becuase other ways are not as complete. 

I guess my question is this, Is there any where on this site or another site that explains the many different forms of Raw diets. I would like to learn as much as possible about all the different forms that Raw diets take. Mostly so when I do happen to find another raw feeder who happens to feed differently, I will be better equipped to understand why someone would choose to feed that paticular diet over another. I feel its important to not to dismiss some one or something becuase its different, but instead learn as much as possible about it and make your own educated disicion.

Thank you


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## DaneMama (Jun 27, 2008)

Well for PMR I always tell people to go to our website

Dedicated to proper carnivore nutrition - Prey Model Raw Feeding for Dogs & Cats

I sure hope others post up info too!


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## BrownieM (Aug 30, 2010)

Yes, I would LOVE unbiased information about the different ways to feed raw.


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## deb9017 (Aug 31, 2010)

I have not really come across one website that has much info about different kinds of raw diets. However, before I went raw, I did a lot of Googling about raw diets, and there are a lot of websites out there. I just went to a bunch of them and read what they had to say, and then tried to do what seemed like it made the most sense for me. It ended up being Prey model raw. But there is a lot of information out there to be had.


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

i hear ya, deb....google is my best friend....

there is so much information out there....and when i was researching, much of what i had to discard lest my brain explode were the methods that relied too much on what a human would eat...which meant i had to study the anatomy and physiology of wolf and dog....

and stop thinking of my dog as a four legged human...which meant i had to stop thinking of dogs as omnivores....

thus, started the road i call the process of elimination...i joined every yahoo group....

and learned about whole prey model and feeding ten year old deer heads to their dogs...or throwing a goat out into the back yard and leaving it there until consumed....

ok, but not practical for my living situation.

then i saw this video where cottage cheese and other dairy products were used, along with processed american cheese and all kinds of supplements and ground stuff and sawdust from the butcher's floor and things that just didn't make sense to me...and fruits and veggies and foods that were fit for herbivores and omnivores, not carnivores, which i'd already decided dogs were.

i think it comes down to that...what makes sense to the feeder....

for me, it became obvious that dogs are carnivores, so therefore they eat prey.

since i'm not throwing a goat into the back yard, i try to feed them as many parts of animals as i can....that's what made the most sense to me.

but it took a year of research and reading other peoples' stories and anecdotal evidence and observations from people who have fed raw for 20-30 years or longer....

reading books...and when all was said and done, prey model fit my belief system in a way that allowed me to feel comfortable feeding my dogs what i considered to be the most realistic and appropriate nutrition to meet their needs.


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## eternalstudent (Jul 22, 2010)

I was introduced to the concept of raw feeding by a dog trainer who my vet says ends up with "disciples" and that they are generally poorly informed.

She definitely opened my eyes to the concept but after I started to read around I found she was feeding some bizarre form of a PMR / barf / home cooked system. When I said to her about the 80 : 10 : 10 ratio and the quantities she said that i was sorely mistaken and that feeding a 20 lb pup 2 lb of meat and bones was way to much. 

Needless to say I have not followed her feeing system!!!

The other people that go to her classes also feed this strange idea. An example of a daily feed.

natures diet pre packaged
raw meaty bones like lamb necks and ribs
macaroni cheese (i jest not and it is freshly made)

In the mix there will be probiotic yogurts and cottage cheese. 

After my pup had been staying with her for a weekend she suggested to me that I should add probiotic yogurt to my pups diet as she had been eating the horse manure and this was an indication that she was looking for added bacteria in the diet!

Of all the different forms of feeding the PMR made the most sense to me so I choose it. I am also in a position with the help of the nutrient database I could if I chose mimic an of the nutrient lists on the kibble packets, without adding a single supplement or cooking a single item!

Don't think this helps give you any extra help with finding out about the other raw diets


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## JayJayisme (Aug 2, 2009)

The problem (IMHO) with most web sites that promote raw is that they are somehow linked to some sort of commercial raw product. Sadly, that is the same BS heavy "information environment" that surrounds the kibble market, which is precisely what most people considering raw are trying to get away from.

Most of us here enthusiastically feed and promote the "prey model raw" (PMR) diet, which is also referred to as the "raw meaty bones" (RMB) diet. It's completely non-commercial in that almost nobody but the human-grade meat industry stands to gain anything from it. You generally buy your meaty bones and organs for this diet from the supermarket, or other human meat supply chains. Your dogs pretty much eat what you eat, except their version is raw. At the end of the day, it's generally cheaper than any commercial dog food option, including kibble, canned, and premade raw.

Most of the sites that promote "BARF" are in it for commercial gain so take what is stated with a grain of salt. The minute someone is trying to sell you dog food, they will also be working in the background to see how far they can stretch a little meat (the most expensive ingredient) with fillers like vegetables and grains (the least expensive ingredients). To do this they will try to convince you that your dog is an omnivore, which is junk-science. Many of these products are regarded as nothing more than uncooked kibble.

There are exceptions to this practice, of course, but ALL premade raw food has one huge disadvantage over the PMR/RMB diet, which is the bone that is included in the product is ground up or added as a bone meal. This offers no dental benefits for your dog, one of the most obvious and immediately apparent advantages provided through the chewing of soft raw bones in the PMR/RMB diet. Dental disease in dogs is at epidemic levels these days and the PMR/RMB diet can virtually eliminate this issue from you and your dog's life.

Anyway, the point here is to encourage you to keep things in perspective. If you are receiving information from someone who is directly or indirectly selling something, be critical. If you are receiving information from a bunch of enthusiastic dog owners who have personally seen the results of the diet they are promoting and have nothing to gain personally by promoting their idea of a proper diet, pay attention. Remember, nearly every one of us who feeds raw now was once a kibble feeder so we've pretty much seen it all.


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## Animal Quackers (Jul 10, 2010)

JayJayisme said:


> If you are receiving information from someone who is directly or indirectly selling something, be critical. If you are receiving information from a bunch of enthusiastic dog owners who have personally seen the results of the diet they are promoting and have nothing to gain personally by promoting their idea of a proper diet, pay attention. Remember, nearly every one of us who feeds raw now was once a kibble feeder so we've pretty much seen it all.


SO nicely said, Jay! You are so articulate!


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## Jodysmom (Jan 9, 2010)

The gentleman you spoke to recommends 30-50% bone and then a portion of that vegies? According to his plan, a dog's diet could be as little as 40% meat.


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## Bessie7o7 (Jan 1, 2010)

Oh I love Google, but I hate Google also, all at the same time. You see, I woke up this morning at 4am. I didn't feel that great, so I decided not to go to work. That gave me a whole lot of time on my hands. I have been sitting here at my computer researching raw diets and throwing a ball for the puppy. There is just so much info out there on Raw it will make your head spin. There are tons of companies trying to sell you the latest and greatest recipe of ground up, well who even knows whats in those patties. Some of it looks like liverwurst with carrot chunks mixed in. 

I guess what I was looking for was something like a comparison web site that made it plain and simple to read. Some sort of a chart or something that laid out the pros and cons of each style for people who didn't want to read all the details concerning a certain style only to find out that's not something they're interested in. I spent half of my day reading through websites trying to figure out why someone should switch to a pre-made raw diet. I wanted to find out if the nutrition was better then that of PMR or Premium Kibble. But just like a lot of people I could only come to the conclusion that its just like kibble because its processed, pumped with fillers, and cost too much. It appeals to the Raw feeders because it comes in a wide variety and the masses like it because its convenient. I think something like this from blue Buffalo Blue Buffalo - Compare Dog Food with our Dog Food Comparison Test (Only for raw foods and kibble) would shed some light on all the different types of feeding at once. It would be like foot notes for hundreds web sites. And give people an idea of which ones they would like to research more. with out overloading there minds with all the useless info from the other types of food. 

With all the knowledge on this site I'm sure someone could come up with something. Maybe have the first column list off Grocery store kibbles, Grocery store can foods, Premium Kibbles and canned food, Grain free premium Kibbles, Dehydrated foods, Pre-made raw, PMR

The next Column would be something like Cleans teeth. Every thing that cleaned teeth would get a check. Convenience would be next and so on. 

Maybe this already exists but i haven't come across it. I think it would help show people like my girlfriend that there are reasons to chose a specific diet. and that they are not all created equal.

And then again maybe i should go take the dogs for a walk and get away from the computer for a while. :biggrin: 

Jeremy


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## Bessie7o7 (Jan 1, 2010)

Jodysmom said:


> The gentleman you spoke to recommends 30-50% bone and then a portion of that vegies? According to his plan, a dog's diet could be as little as 40% meat.


He doesn't specifically mention vegies. His fliers that he hands out seem very similar to PMR. He has two books listed at the bottom of his fliers. Natural Nutrition For Dogs, By Kymythy Schultze and Raw& Natural Nutrition For Dogs, by Lew Olson, PhD

I was concerned mostly that if you fed 30-50% bone over a long period of time that your dog would end being constipated and not getting enough of other nutrition it needs from the meat.


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## Jodysmom (Jan 9, 2010)

Bessie7o7 said:


> He doesn't specifically mention vegies. His fliers that he hands out seem very similar to PMR. He has two books listed at the bottom of his fliers. Natural Nutrition For Dogs, By Kymythy Schultze and Raw& Natural Nutrition For Dogs, by Lew Olson, PhD
> 
> I was concerned mostly that if you fed 30-50% bone over a long period of time that your dog would end being constipated and not getting enough of other nutrition it needs from the meat.


I completely agree with you on both points. 


Tami


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## sassymaxmom (Dec 7, 2008)

"Billinghurst recommends 60% RMBs and 40% veggies, etc... however; 60% to 75% CAN BE RMBs and the rest should be a combination of veggies, organs (also known as offal, to include liver, heart, kidney, green tripe, etc...), ground meat (e.g. lean beef, chicken or turkey), eggs and supplements. "
BARF for Beginners - Most Frequently Asked Questions

RMB is not the same as edible bone. Yes, usually the bones are chicken necks and wings which are 40% bone but the diet isn't 50% bone. If 60% of the diet is 40% bone necks then the total bone in the diet is far too much with not nearly enough protein but certainly not 50% edible bone.

I came to feeding raw by way of feeding a kidney dog home cooked food. I was familiar with nutritiondata.com and had a copy of the 2006 NRC requirements for dogs from Optimal Nutrition by Monica Segal which has some meaty bone analysis. I made up 'recipes' of those meaty bones, meat and organ and was astonished at how complete that diet is and Max is now fed prey model raw.


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

Bessie7o7 said:


> He doesn't specifically mention vegies. His fliers that he hands out seem very similar to PMR. He has two books listed at the bottom of his fliers. Natural Nutrition For Dogs, By Kymythy Schultze and Raw& Natural Nutrition For Dogs, by Lew Olson, PhD
> 
> I was concerned mostly that if you fed 30-50% bone over a long period of time that your dog would end being constipated and not getting enough of other nutrition it needs from the meat.


i'm familiar with both authors....

if you want things to make sense to you and they have to make sense, so your head stops spinning...is to look at a dog's digestive system and that means anatomy and physiology.

that's what finally convinced me...

the 80 - 10 - 10 percentage is a guideline, not a hard and fast rule...

the other thing that convinced me about pmr are the sheer amounts of people doing it.....and i learned that by joining every raw feeding group on yahoo...there are lots of them..some very hard core, some vegan...it runs the gamut.

i think, personally, the proof is in knowing food and how it can affect the body.

sugar feeds disease.
sugar causes teeth to decay
processed foods have extraneous product in them that is of no use to any dog
the actual act of processing takes food and turns it into something entirely different.
if a food has to add back in nutrients the processing removed, then it makes me go hmmmm
the closer food looks like the real deal, the less additives, the less processing and the closest to nature it is.

i can only go by every poster's reports.....teeth, hair, health, immune system, stools, health, health, health....

the cons of feeding raw is the addiction of it all....and dreaming about freezers...


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## bumblegoat (May 12, 2010)

magicre said:


> the cons of feeding raw is the addiction of it all....and dreaming about freezers...


That quote is really spot on. :biggrin: I see a perfect signature quote.


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## Bessie7o7 (Jan 1, 2010)

magicre said:


> the cons of feeding raw is the addiction of it all....and dreaming about freezers...



That's too funny


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## deb9017 (Aug 31, 2010)

There is another con that you need to be aware of. You will probably not ever be able to run into a grocery store just to grab one of two things without going back to check the meat department, ever again. I literally cannot leave a store until I have checked out the meat...


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

bumblegoat said:


> That quote is really spot on. :biggrin: I see a perfect signature quote.


i took your advice. :biggrin:


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

sassymaxmom said:


> "Billinghurst recommends 60% RMBs and 40% veggies, etc... however; 60% to 75% CAN BE RMBs and the rest should be a combination of veggies, organs (also known as offal, to include liver, heart, kidney, green tripe, etc...), ground meat (e.g. lean beef, chicken or turkey), eggs and supplements. "
> BARF for Beginners - Most Frequently Asked Questions
> 
> RMB is not the same as edible bone. Yes, usually the bones are chicken necks and wings which are 40% bone but the diet isn't 50% bone. If 60% of the diet is 40% bone necks then the total bone in the diet is far too much with not nearly enough protein but certainly not 50% edible bone.
> ...


when you were doing your research, did billinghurst's diet come across as just a little bit non sensible?


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## sassymaxmom (Dec 7, 2008)

Yes. I put a sample recipe into ND and it came up very high in calcium and very low in 5 vitamins and 7 minerals. This one was only part of a total diet, the dog also ate kibble and some more red meat but not much.

There wasn't any pork and too much chicken. Not enough variety in organs.

There is more to it than raw numbers I know but I don't see how veggies without enough of what it takes and too much bone add up to a well balanced diet.


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

sassymaxmom said:


> Yes. I put a sample recipe into ND and it came up very high in calcium and very low in 5 vitamins and 7 minerals. This one was only part of a total diet, the dog also ate kibble and some more red meat but not much.
> 
> There wasn't any pork and too much chicken. Not enough variety in organs.
> 
> There is more to it than raw numbers I know but I don't see how veggies without enough of what it takes and too much bone add up to a well balanced diet.


yeah, i don't know either....i often wonder how people come up with these diets....for their dogs....then again, i was one of those people, too LOL

i did find this website, though....and never realised this:

Chlorine - egg, salmon, tuna ( don't feed canned and can't feed pacific northwest salmon)

http://www.kaossiberians.com/old kaos pages/health/Nutrients.pdf
i don't feed eggs or salmon or tuna....so now i have to look up whether this is necessary for a dog's health...


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## sassymaxmom (Dec 7, 2008)

Chloride isn't listed on USDA or Nutritiondata for humans. It is needed at quite a high level. Max needs 320 mg a day and I have no idea if he gets it or not. Salt is sodium chloride and how we humans take it in. If eggs have plenty I am sure any meat has plenty, the person putting that sheet together just wasn't about to list it if he/she didn't know for certain.

Nice to know what nutrients are in what foods but the amount found matters too. Max would happily eat 80 ounces of ostrich or 20 ounces of sardines to get his vitamin E but it really isn't good enough.


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