# Stomach Contents



## candiceb (Jan 22, 2010)

Hello all,

So, I was having the BARF vs. Prey Model argument with someone today, and of course one of the key points was whether or not to include plant matter (seems to be a popular topic lately). So as one of my examples in favor of PMR, I pointed to several studies that show how wolves consume very little to no plant matter at all, based on stomach and scat contents. One data collection came from the book "The Wolves of Mount McKinley" by Adolph Murie, from the 1940s. Well, so I decided to flip through some of the rest of the book and see what other info goodies I could find, when I came across a section talking about how he and some of the other biologists raised a wolf cub. The first meat they fed her was a whole ground squirrel, and he made a point to mention that she ate everything including the stomach contents, and did so regularly. 

Of course, I feed PMR to my dogs and feel no need to include veggies, but if I were having that same argument again with another person, and they pointed to *that* part of the book and said it was evidence that wolves eat stomach contents and therefore need vegetables, how could I uphold my end of the debate? I realize David Mech has evidence directly to the contrary, but wouldn't it become sort of a "he said she said" argument?

Thanks ahead for your answers! :smile:


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## candiceb (Jan 22, 2010)

Oh, and if anyone is interested in looking at Murie's book, you can read the whole thing here. Just go to Contents, Chapter 2, and read through the next few pages.


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## RawFedDogs (Jun 16, 2008)

You do have the "he said, he said" thing in there but you also have the facts about how a dog's body doesn't have the components it needs to digest plant matter (flat teeth, jaw structure, short smooth intestines, etc.). If dogs/wolves were meant to eat plant matter, they would have to tools to digest it and absorb plant nutrients. You can point out that there are no needed nutrients in plants that aren't in meat, bones, and organs so there is absolutely no need to eat plants. It just isn't necessary nor beneficial in any way.

I'm not familiar w/ ground squirrels. I don't know how big they are but basically, wolves/dogs won't bother to remove stomach/intestines of animals small enough to just crunch up and swallow. That would include squirrels, rats, and sometimes rabbits.

That should arm you a little so go get'em. :biggrin:


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## xxshaelxx (Mar 8, 2010)

Oh yeah, because a wolf is seriously going to take the time to chew apart the squirrel, extract the stomach/stomach contents, then continue eating...whereas, they could easily just *chomp, chomp, swallow!* and be done with it.


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## whiteleo (Sep 7, 2008)

This was always my argument for dogs who are on a raw diet eat a lot of grass, and once I started feeding tripe they stopped feeling the need to graze so much.

If wolves ate rabbits, and squirrels whole with stomach contents and those included grass, that would be enough in their diet so that they didn't need to eat the stomach contents of the bigger animals since they frequently eat a lot of smaller prey, they just need some properties of those contents to keep everything in properly working order!

I love ya RFD!:usa2:


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

xxshaelxx said:


> Oh yeah, because a wolf is seriously going to take the time to chew apart the squirrel, extract the stomach/stomach contents, then continue eating...whereas, they could easily just *chomp, chomp, swallow!* and be done with it.


don't forget the cuisinart wolves carry around with them to grind up squirrels.


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## harrkim120 (Feb 2, 2010)

I still love this thread...:heh:

http://dogfoodchat.com/forum/pictures/2200-raw-feeding-its-finest-caution-graphic-photos.html


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## whiteleo (Sep 7, 2008)

I still don't buy that argument, How many peoples dogs here eat grass like cows that are raw fed? RFD's argument is that it is to ease an upset stomach, well if that were the case then raw feeding is really bad and causes nothing but upset stomachs,

I believe that dogs do try to extract some of those juices from the blades of grass even though they don't have the teeth for it to get whatever it is in there to help digest.

Now if our raw fed dogs were strictly fed a WHOLE pray diet, I'm guessing they wouldn't do this or need to do this.

Its funny my dogs never ate grass before when they were on kibble, only to get sick/throw-up!


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## cprcheetah (Jul 14, 2010)

Observations of someone who watched wolves eating at a 'wolf sanctuary'. You can read her entire experience on my blog: My Little Carnivores: A day with the wolf pack
"They do NOT eat the stomach contents. They shake it out and eat the stomach lining. The wolves can eat all parts except the stomach contents, but often will not eat the vertabrate or skull (but will eat the jaw bone). They can eat them, but they are more difficult to eat, so they will pick clean and might bury/cache for future in case of extreme hunger"

From this site: Myths About Raw: Do wolves eat stomach contents of prey?

"Wolves usually tear into the body cavity of large prey and...consume the larger internal organs, such as lungs, heart, and liver. The large rumen [, which is one of the main stomach chambers in large ruminant herbivores,]...is usually punctured during removal and its contents spilled. The vegetation in the intestinal tract is of no interest to the wolves, but the stomach lining and intestinal wall are consumed, and their contents further strewn about the kill site." (pg.123, emphasis added)

"To grow and maintain their own bodies, wolves need to ingest all the major parts of their herbivorous prey, except the plants in the digestive system." (pg.124, emphasis added).

This next quote can be found on the Hunting and Meals page at Kerwood Wildlife Education Center.
"The wolf's diet consists mostly of muscle meat and fatty tissue from various animals. Heart, lung, liver, and other internal organs are eaten. Bones are crushed to get at the marrow, and bone fragments are eaten as well. Even hair and skin are sometimes consumed. The only part consistently ignored is the stomach and its contents. Although some vegetable matter is taken separately, particularly berries, Canis lupus doesn't seem to digest them very well."


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## whiteleo (Sep 7, 2008)

Yes, the stomach lining is where all the enzymes are stored, if you do a search on tripe you would know that! I'm not saying that dogs need vegetation only the enzymes that are produced from them, this has and will always be my point!


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## RawFedDogs (Jun 16, 2008)

whiteleo said:


> If wolves ate rabbits, and squirrels whole with stomach contents and those included grass, that would be enough in their diet so that they didn't need to eat the stomach contents of the bigger animals since they frequently eat a lot of smaller prey, they just need some properties of those contents to keep everything in properly working order!
> 
> I love ya RFD!:usa2:


Hehe, I love you too but that doesn't alter the fact that you are 100% wrong. :biggrin: Have you seen a squirrels stomach? It probably will hold maybe 1/2 a teaspoon if that much. Rabbits aren't a lot bigger. My dogs do shake out rabbit stomachs. My cats leave squirrel stomachs on the porch regularly. :smile:

The enzymes you talk about in tripe are there to aid in the digestion of grass. Not very useful to a dog or wolf.


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## whiteleo (Sep 7, 2008)

RFD, you and I will always, always go round and round on this, there has to be a reason WHY after starting raw feeding that my dogs started eating grass like cows and then after adding in tripe to their diet on a regular basis they have stopped.:becky:

I don't buy your argument, there is some connection even if your thick head doesn't believe it!:frusty::frusty::frusty:


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

as humans, we take medicines....look them up in the PDR, physician desk reference, and it's common to see mechanism of action: unknown....yet, people take these medicines and swear by them.

i think there are things in this universe that just are...no known reason, except the results are objectively observed...

tripe, for my dogs....works.......without science to back me up...just as certain medicines work and we don't know why.......and has made a difference in my dogs....an observable one...


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## RachelsaurusRexU (Sep 4, 2010)

Maybe I'm misunderstanding the quote in the original post, but if the squirrels were ground, how could the wolf avoid eating the stomach contents if it wanted to?! I've ground meat before... It all ends up looking like a big uniform pile of stuff. It's not like he could pick out tiny bits of stomach content from a ground mass of squirrel.


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## Caty M (Aug 13, 2010)

I think they meant ground squirrels, as in a type of squirrel, not that it is ground up into pieces :hand:


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## candiceb (Jan 22, 2010)

Lol, yes, it was referring to Ground Squirrels, the type of animal.

Wikipedia - Ground Squirrels


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## RachelsaurusRexU (Sep 4, 2010)

LOL well that makes much more sense! Thanks, guys :doh:


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## RawFedDogs (Jun 16, 2008)

whiteleo said:


> I don't buy your argument, there is some connection even if your thick head doesn't believe it!


I don't know why you think your dogs eating grass is such a big deal. Most all dogs do it. They obviously don't do it for nutrition. It usually comes back up in just a very few minutes or comes out the back end twisted up into a cute little rope. It looks the same when it comes out as it did going in. I suspect they do it because they like the taste.

AND, I never said tripe was bad for dogs, its just no better than any other animal part.


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## whiteleo (Sep 7, 2008)

Disagree. disagree, disagree! My dogs very rarely would eat it to get sick! How come when they were on kibble they didn't eat grass to the extent that they do when on a raw diet?


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## rawdogs (Jan 29, 2011)

Most dogs who eat grass usually go for the rough type,my own dog included,there is a theory that the roughness of the grass picks up any parasites in the stomach,which the dog then brings back up.

My own dog is fed tripe every other day,but still eats grass.


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

bishopthesheltie said:


> I think they meant ground squirrels, as in a type of squirrel, not that it is ground up into pieces :hand:


then i have to take back the cuisinart remark, for that is exactly what i thought...that the squirrels were ground.....with coffee, that's a funny way to wake up today...


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## richie (Jan 30, 2011)

OK.. well my dog doesn't much care for grass, but just loves mulberry tree leaves!!! The seedlings grow all over the place, I guess she thinks she is a silkworm LOL. She also likes clover, grape leaves, and a few other weeds... but not grass -- a lot of other dogs like grass. Maybe it is just the taste??? I do have to question the position though, that there are no nutrients found in plants that are not also found in animal flesh. 

As an example, at least in human nutrition, there are many polyphenols that are known antioxidants and possible anti-carcinogens. These chemicals are found in leaves (green tea, maybe mulberry leaves? who knows???) and ellagic acid (not sure of the spelling) which is found in some berries, especially grapes, blueberries, raspberries, cranberries, and strawberries. Well, I never let my dog have grapes since I heard they are not that safe, but she LOVES blueberries and raspberries, and beats me to the strawberries in the garden every time!!! She picks them just as soon as they ripen. I have had to plant some in pots and keep them on a table she can't reach just so I can eat a few LOL!!!

OK, well yeah, sure, they taste good, that is the argument I have heard why a dog eats berries. Well, they taste great to me too, and they also have lots of protective chemicals in them. I think a person (or animal) in a natural state tends to choose the foods that promote health.... just my 2 cents ;-)


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