# Starting raw sooner than I thought- have some questions



## Mokapi (Apr 7, 2011)

I hope there's no limit to the amount of threads you can start in a day or two. :|

Today I found a site called My Pet Carnivore that serves the Indianapolis area with every source of protein I could think of and some I couldn't! I can put in an order probably in the next week as long as I get a freezer (someone is selling one for cheap in my town...this must be my week!), but I don't think I completely understand a lot of what is on the PMR site. 

#1- It says to start off with chicken backs. I don't even know where to get a chicken back...do you have to order a whole chicken and...cut the back off, or something?  Here's a link to the part of the site for chicken, if anyone has the time to look. They don't seem to offer chicken quarters either, and I don't really want to hack at a whole chicken quite yet if I can help it (not excellent with blood ). Is ordering a whole chicken the only way to get the back? Is there something else I can start with? If anyone does have the chance to look at that website, is there a poultry/fowl protein I could start with there?

#2- Do people get meat grinders to actually grind the meat, or...the bone (I'm clearly confused)? Does meat/bone NEED to be grinded? Chip is about 11 lbs., so I wasn't sure if bones would be too difficult for him. He doesn't have any dental issues. 

#3- Are chicken, turkey, and duck necks considered a muscle meat? Is there bone in them? Can these be fed during week 1 and 2? When it says turkey necks can be added in week 3 as a whole meal, would I weigh out the appropriate amount of ounces of turkey necks as a full meal? 

#4- If I can't seem to find a place that sells things like pork ribs, but there are beef BONES, is that...about the same? This particular place also sells lamb femur. Is that something he could have? Again, would pork ribs/any bone need to be cut up?

#5- When the PMR website says half the amount in weight for beef heart, does that mean I'd give him about 1.5% of his body weight and ONLY give him the beef heart? I did the math and he'd only be getting about 5.3 oz a day anyway, so half of that isn't very much at all. Taken from the PMR site: " Lets say you feed morning and night, which is what most people do. That is a total of 14 meals per week. If you are only supposed to be feeding ~10% organs that means that only 1.5 meals should consist of organ. That can be an exclusive organ meal or spread out throughout the week."- so it's okay that one meal could be ALL organ? 5.3 oz of organ? I thought there had to be 1:1:8? 

#6- What in the world is tripe? Is it good for him? 

#7- Once organs have been added to his diet, can I mix them? For example, beef liver, chicken hearts, and beef heart/kidney/spleen?

#8- Are organ "mixes" good? For instance, the beef organ mix is 50% beef heart, 30% beef liver, and 20% beef kidney. Is that something useful? 

#9- And finally, how much do you recommend buying at a time, especially for your first two months of trying? Every three meals for Chip will only roughly be a pound. It looks like from my crappy math skills that two weeks of just chicken is 9.5-ish pounds (which I would just round up to 10)...but I figured I would should also plan ahead for the other weeks (obviously). Should I just buy 10 lbs. of everything I'll need for the 8 weeks, LOL? Or, for two months, 10 lbs. of each of the muscle meats and 5 lbs. of a few different types of organ meats?


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## Ania's Mommy (Feb 8, 2009)

Mokapi said:


> #1- It says to start off with chicken backs. I don't even know where to get a chicken back...do you have to order a whole chicken and...cut the back off, or something?  Here's a link to the part of the site for chicken, if anyone has the time to look. They don't seem to offer chicken quarters either, and I don't really want to hack at a whole chicken quite yet if I can help it (not excellent with blood ). Is ordering a whole chicken the only way to get the back? Is there something else I can start with? If anyone does have the chance to look at that website, is there a poultry/fowl protein I could start with there?


I had trouble finding chicken backs too. I ended up having to order them from a butcher. But don't worry, you could just buy chicken wings or drumsticks instead.:smile: 

The "My Pet Carnivore" site looks pretty spendy for some items. I wouldn't order any of the chicken. You want to stay away from ground stuff (it is easier for bacteria to get in, and you won't get the wonderful dental cleaning benefits of a raw diet with ground meat), and everything else is readily available at the grocery store for a fraction of the cost.



> #2- Do people get meat grinders to actually grind the meat, or...the bone (I'm clearly confused)? Does meat/bone NEED to be grinded? Chip is about 11 lbs., so I wasn't sure if bones would be too difficult for him. He doesn't have any dental issues.


Absolutely not. In fact, grinding would be much less desirable for the reasons previously mentioned. 



> #3- Are chicken, turkey, and duck necks considered a muscle meat? Is there bone in them? Can these be fed during week 1 and 2? When it says turkey necks can be added in week 3 as a whole meal, would I weigh out the appropriate amount of ounces of turkey necks as a full meal?


Necks have tons of bone in them, so they would be considered a raw meaty bone (RMB). THis will become apparent when you try to cut the turkey neck. :wink: You could certainly feed ONE of those items during week one & two. I would suggest the chicken, as turkey and duck are much richer meats. One turkey neck is about a pound.



> #4- If I can't seem to find a place that sells things like pork ribs, but there are beef BONES, is that...about the same? This particular place also sells lamb femur. Is that something he could have? Again, would pork ribs/any bone need to be cut up?


The only beef bones that I'm comfortable feeding are ribs. I wouldn't feed any other bones from a full grown cow. You should be able to find pork ribs just fine in a regular grocery store. The lamb femur should be okay to feed as well, since lambs are small animals and their bones are much less dense than cows.



> #5- When the PMR website says half the amount in weight for beef heart, does that mean I'd give him about 1.5% of his body weight and ONLY give him the beef heart? I did the math and he'd only be getting about 5.3 oz a day anyway, so half of that isn't very much at all. Taken from the PMR site: " Lets say you feed morning and night, which is what most people do. That is a total of 14 meals per week. If you are only supposed to be feeding ~10% organs that means that only 1.5 meals should consist of organ. That can be an exclusive organ meal or spread out throughout the week."- so it's okay that one meal could be ALL organ? 5.3 oz of organ? I thought there had to be 1:1:8?


Don't worry about organs right now. You won't feed them at all for at least two months. But when you do, you'll need to start adding them in very slowly, and gradually work your amount up. 

As far as a whole meal of organs, you'll just have to know your dog. I feed a whole meal of organ every two weeks or so (I really don't pay too much attention). But some people feed a little bit of organs every day. Sort of like vitamins.

But like I said. Forget about organs for now. :wink:



> #6- What in the world is tripe? Is it good for him?


Tripe is the stomach of ruminants. Usually cows. There are many many MANY threads here about it's merits. Check some of them out. I personally feed tripe because my dog likes it.



> #7- Once organs have been added to his diet, can I mix them? For example, beef liver, chicken hearts, and beef heart/kidney/spleen?


Of course! Except, hearts are considered a rich muscle meat, not an organ.



> #8- Are organ "mixes" good? For instance, the beef organ mix is 50% beef heart, 30% beef liver, and 20% beef kidney. Is that something useful?


I don't like them. THey're usually more expensive than just buying the organs at the store and (as previously stated) heart is not an organ. Also, they're ground. I try not to feed ground stuff very often. 



> #9- And finally, how much do you recommend buying at a time, especially for your first two months of trying? Every three meals for Chip will only roughly be a pound. It looks like from my crappy math skills that two weeks of just chicken is 9.5-ish pounds (which I would just round up to 10)...but I figured I would should also plan ahead for the other weeks (obviously). Should I just buy 10 lbs. of everything I'll need for the 8 weeks, LOL? Or, for two months, 10 lbs. of each of the muscle meats and 5 lbs. of a few different types of organ meats?


That's up to you and the amount of freezer space you have. Though, I wouldn't buy things in bulk that I don't KNOW my dog will eat. Learned that the hard way with fish.


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## DaneMama (Jun 27, 2008)

Mokapi said:


> I hope there's no limit to the amount of threads you can start in a day or two. :|


Nope, no limit :wink:



> Today I found a site called My Pet Carnivore that serves the Indianapolis area with every source of protein I could think of and some I couldn't! I can put in an order probably in the next week as long as I get a freezer (someone is selling one for cheap in my town...this must be my week!), but I don't think I completely understand a lot of what is on the PMR site.


Are you located in a pretty remote area? If not, I would contact butchers and wholesale meat distributors in your area instead of going through this site. They products are WAY overpriced. You can find things much, much cheaper even at a regular grocery store. 



> #1- It says to start off with chicken backs. I don't even know where to get a chicken back...do you have to order a whole chicken and...cut the back off, or something?  Here's a link to the part of the site for chicken, if anyone has the time to look. They don't seem to offer chicken quarters either, and I don't really want to hack at a whole chicken quite yet if I can help it (not excellent with blood ). Is ordering a whole chicken the only way to get the back? Is there something else I can start with? If anyone does have the chance to look at that website, is there a poultry/fowl protein I could start with there?


Chicken backs are usually not sold in grocery stores. In the human food industry chicken backs are used to make broths for soups, usually. So they are typically only sold by wholesale meat distributors to restaurants. You have to contact a butcher/wholesale distributor to get them and they usually come in bulk, 40 pound cases. 

You don't have to start off with chicken backs. Chicken wings and drumsticks would work just fine for your little dog. 



> #2- Do people get meat grinders to actually grind the meat, or...the bone (I'm clearly confused)? Does meat/bone NEED to be grinded? Chip is about 11 lbs., so I wasn't sure if bones would be too difficult for him. He doesn't have any dental issues.


You can get a meat grinder, but unless your dog has no teeth or horrible dental disease then there is no need. A good grinder that can handle meat AND bones are pretty expensive. At least $100 or more. What you can do in the beginning is smash the crap out of the chicken wings/drummies with a kitchen mallet until all the bones are broken up pretty fine. Then eventually you'll want to gradually decrease the amount of smashing so that he does eventually get used to eating whole bones which is what keeps dog's teeth clean. 



> #3- Are chicken, turkey, and duck necks considered a muscle meat? Is there bone in them? Can these be fed during week 1 and 2? When it says turkey necks can be added in week 3 as a whole meal, would I weigh out the appropriate amount of ounces of turkey necks as a full meal?


The meat ON the necks is muscle meat. They are what we consider "raw meaty bones" or aka RMBs which are mostly meat and some bone (10-40ish% bone). RMBs make up most of the diet, especially in the beginning. After a few months RMBs should make up less and less of the diet. In our house we feed RMBs about 50% of the time and whole muscle meats and organ the rest of it. 



> #4- If I can't seem to find a place that sells things like pork ribs, but there are beef BONES, is that...about the same? This particular place also sells lamb femur. Is that something he could have? Again, would pork ribs/any bone need to be cut up?


Again, unless you are in a very remote area you'll be able to find pork ribs. Beef bones are almost nearly all inappropriate to feed a dog. Beef ribs are the ONLY beef bone that I suggest people feed their dogs and they are really only a recreational chew bone and not a meal. 

Lamb femur is what I would consider an inedible bone for your little dog. He could have it as a rec bone, but I will warn you that it may have the potential to break/crack teeth. Beef ribs also have this warning associated with them as well for some dogs.



> #5- When the PMR website says half the amount in weight for beef heart, does that mean I'd give him about 1.5% of his body weight and ONLY give him the beef heart? I did the math and he'd only be getting about 5.3 oz a day anyway, so half of that isn't very much at all. Taken from the PMR site: " Lets say you feed morning and night, which is what most people do. That is a total of 14 meals per week. If you are only supposed to be feeding ~10% organs that means that only 1.5 meals should consist of organ. That can be an exclusive organ meal or spread out throughout the week."- so it's okay that one meal could be ALL organ? 5.3 oz of organ? I thought there had to be 1:1:8?


First off, heart isn't considered nutritionally organ meat. Its considered muscle meat and its very rich so its sort of like the middle ground between organ meat and muscle meat. 

Second, when adding in rich meats and organs I highly suggest you feed very small amounts, about 1/2 a normal portion, so in your dog's case like 2.5 ounces or even less depending on how your dog will handle it. Most dogs cannot handle large amounts of organs in the beginning so you have to go at it slowly to see what your dog can handle and then slowly increase it over time. Eventually your dog should be able to handle a full meal of organs. We only feed organs once every 10 days to 2 weeks as a whole meal. It took months for us to get our dogs used to that much organ meat at once. 



> #6- What in the world is tripe? Is it good for him?


Tripe is the intestines of an herbivore and its contents. Some people think its good for dogs, but I don't think it provides any nutrition that they don't get from meat, bones and organs from a variety of animals. This is something you'd have to decide for yourself. 



> #7- Once organs have been added to his diet, can I mix them? For example, beef liver, chicken hearts, and beef heart/kidney/spleen?


The more you mix and match the better. The more variety you can get in, the better. 



> #8- Are organ "mixes" good? For instance, the beef organ mix is 50% beef heart, 30% beef liver, and 20% beef kidney. Is that something useful?


I don't like mixes because it they are ground, nutrients are lost in the grinding process. Also, mixes aren't always accurate in their break down because there is no regulation over these things. 



> #9- And finally, how much do you recommend buying at a time, especially for your first two months of trying? Every three meals for Chip will only roughly be a pound. It looks like from my crappy math skills that two weeks of just chicken is 9.5-ish pounds (which I would just round up to 10)...but I figured I would should also plan ahead for the other weeks (obviously). Should I just buy 10 lbs. of everything I'll need for the 8 weeks, LOL? Or, for two months, 10 lbs. of each of the muscle meats and 5 lbs. of a few different types of organ meats?


We personally go through 300+ pounds of meat per month. We have 6 big dogs. We order 400-800 pounds at once LOL

I would get a months worth of food so that you have that all ready. Get 10 pounds of chicken wings/drummies/necks and get 10 pounds of turkey necks (you'll have to cut these into appropriately sized RMBs for your dogs since these typically are over a pound a piece.

Hope this helps!


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## Mokapi (Apr 7, 2011)

Thank you two so much for answering all of those questions, and also for warning me about how pricey that site is. I wouldn't have known at all. I think I just saw the variety and got excited, LOL 

*@Ania's Mommy (Richelle?)*- I know you told me to not worry about the organ meat right now, and I know you're right but I'm so worried I won't understand when I do get there! I'll try my hardest to let it go for now. I do have one question about something you said, though:

"You could certainly feed ONE of those items during week one & two."

Do you mean I should only try feeding him one, or that one will last me long enough that I won't need much?  Can I try chicken necks one meal, and then a drumstick the next?

*@DaneMama*- Holy crap...800 lbs. of meat. I can't even imagine how much that is. You must have an enormous freezer! I will also definitely be staying away from the lamb femur if it has the ability to crack teeth. He has a retained deciduous tooth that is constantly worrying me anyway, so I don't want to risk anything bad happening to his mouth. 

Okay, I have two more questions for now (and hopefully this will let me get some sleep so I won't be up worrying about being unsure...I feel like I have to know everything RIGHT NOW), for whoever is willing to answer them for me.

From the PMR site: 

"Most likely you will see some loose stool. You can feed chicken backs a meal before and after for the added bone or in conjunction with the beef heart. Then the next day just do chicken and turkey. Feed your rotation of chicken, turkey, fish, pork and beef until you see a weeks worth of normal stool."

So the ideal meal plan (with each protein source on its own as a meal and two meals a day) would be chicken/beef heart, chicken/turkey, fish/pork, beef heart/chicken? Would I pretty much do this every day? 

Also, on week 5, when adding in the pork, would you rotate out the fish for a week? At this point do they need chicken every day? From what I understand, around week 4 I should be able to have whole meals of separate chicken, turkey fish, AND pork. Should I be mixing these together at all in the first 2 months, like salmon + drumsticks or turkey necks + pork, or keeping them completely separate?

Thanks you guys so much for helping me out here, I really appreciate it. It's amazing how knowledgeable everyone on this site is. When I brought up feeding Chip raw to his trainer a few weeks ago, he said he didn't know anyone who had started doing it so I feel really fortunate to have found this place!


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## SilverBeat (Jan 16, 2011)

Mokapi said:


> Also, on week 5, when adding in the pork, would you rotate out the fish for a week? At this point do they need chicken every day? From what I understand, around week 4 I should be able to have whole meals of separate chicken, turkey fish, AND pork. Should I be mixing these together at all in the first 2 months, like salmon + drumsticks or turkey necks + pork, or keeping them completely separate?


I will be honest with you, when I introduced new proteins to Wallaby I did not do mixed meals. For turkey I fed 1/2 a chicken quarter for breakfast, 1/2 a turkey wing [I couldn't find necks... won't be getting wings again probably ever] for dinner, and then 1/2 a chicken quarter for brekkie the next morning. He had some slightly loose stool but that was it. I couldn't break the turkey wings into anything but halves so I decided to just go for it. Last night he had his first pork, meaty neck bones from a local butcher. For breakfast he had 1/2 a chicken quarter and this morning I gave him 1/2 a turkey wing. 
So his meals right now are something like chicken - pork - turkey - chicken - turkey - pork - chicken... etc etc. And he is on his 4th week.
From what I can tell, the idea is to introduce new proteins one by one, so if Chip doesn't like fish, or you didn't order very much, you can skip it for a week after you have introduced it. You just want to keep rotating meals so that there is still variety. 

I'm kind of the opposite of you - I am still learning along the way... I'm one of those "oh come on it can't possibly be THAT hard to do this myself" kind of people. So I just dove into raw feeding head first and I refer to books or this site or preymodelraw.com when I hit a bump or need reassurance.


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## DaneMama (Jun 27, 2008)

Mokapi said:


> *@DaneMama*- Holy crap...800 lbs. of meat. I can't even imagine how much that is. You must have an enormous freezer! I will also definitely be staying away from the lamb femur if it has the ability to crack teeth. He has a retained deciduous tooth that is constantly worrying me anyway, so I don't want to risk anything bad happening to his mouth.


Retained deciduous teeth are not good things to have in their mouths still. They can cause serious problems later in life if they are left there. Usually these are pulled out during a neuter or spay procedure. How old was he when he was neutered? Or is he not neutered?



> "Most likely you will see some loose stool. You can feed chicken backs a meal before and after for the added bone or in conjunction with the beef heart. Then the next day just do chicken and turkey. Feed your rotation of chicken, turkey, fish, pork and beef until you see a weeks worth of normal stool."


Just FYI, I was the one who wrote 90% of the content on the PMR site :wink:



> So the ideal meal plan (with each protein source on its own as a meal and two meals a day) would be chicken/beef heart, chicken/turkey, fish/pork, beef heart/chicken? Would I pretty much do this every day?


You can do it however you'd like. We feed our dogs once a day, so they get a different protein source each day of the week for the most part. We alternate bone in and boneless meals every other day. I'd say you'd be best to feed similarly, even if you feed twice per day. Once you're over the transition period of about 2-3 months, you'll want to feed a bone in meal and one boneless meal per day to keep your dog "regular". There's no exact plan you need to follow for each day, just make sure your dog is getting plenty of variety throughout the week. 



> Also, on week 5, when adding in the pork, would you rotate out the fish for a week? At this point do they need chicken every day? From what I understand, around week 4 I should be able to have whole meals of separate chicken, turkey fish, AND pork. Should I be mixing these together at all in the first 2 months, like salmon + drumsticks or turkey necks + pork, or keeping them completely separate?


No, keep the fish in if your dog can handle it. It all depends on what your dog can handle. Some dogs are more sensitive to changes in diet than others. When first starting out on raw through the transition we suggest keeping meals exclusive to ONE protein. Once your dog has made it through the transition, you can start mixing proteins and feeding more than one per meal if you'd like. 

By week five you should have chicken, turkey, fish and pork worked in. For us that would mean for example: 

Monday-chicken
Tuesday-turkey
Wednesday-fish
Thursday-pork
REPEAT

If you feed twice daily it would look more like this: 

Monday AM-chicken, PM-turkey
Tuesday AM-fish, PM-pork
Wednesday AM- chicken, PM turkey
Thursday AM fish, PM pork
REPEAT

Does that make sense?



> Thanks you guys so much for helping me out here, I really appreciate it. It's amazing how knowledgeable everyone on this site is. When I brought up feeding Chip raw to his trainer a few weeks ago, he said he didn't know anyone who had started doing it so I feel really fortunate to have found this place!


Glad you've found this place too! We are always happy to help....we want you to be successful in your raw feeding experience so that you can keep this lifestyle change for a lifetime :thumb:


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## Mokapi (Apr 7, 2011)

SilverBeat said:


> I will be honest with you, when I introduced new proteins to Wallaby I did not do mixed meals. For turkey I fed 1/2 a chicken quarter for breakfast, 1/2 a turkey wing [I couldn't find necks... won't be getting wings again probably ever] for dinner, and then 1/2 a chicken quarter for brekkie the next morning. He had some slightly loose stool but that was it. I couldn't break the turkey wings into anything but halves so I decided to just go for it. Last night he had his first pork, meaty neck bones from a local butcher. For breakfast he had 1/2 a chicken quarter and this morning I gave him 1/2 a turkey wing.
> So his meals right now are something like chicken - pork - turkey - chicken - turkey - pork - chicken... etc etc. And he is on his 4th week.
> From what I can tell, the idea is to introduce new proteins one by one, so if Chip doesn't like fish, or you didn't order very much, you can skip it for a week after you have introduced it. You just want to keep rotating meals so that there is still variety.
> 
> I'm kind of the opposite of you - I am still learning along the way... I'm one of those "oh come on it can't possibly be THAT hard to do this myself" kind of people. So I just dove into raw feeding head first and I refer to books or this site or preymodelraw.com when I hit a bump or need reassurance.


What you wrote goes right along with what DaneMama wrote so I'll definitely be going that route. 

I think I'm so cautious because my cat Mrowmrow had such a hard time with life in general (he was taken from his mom at 3 weeks, always runty, sick pretty much constantly for his first year of life, etc.) and I don't want Chip to go through anything similar if I can help it.  Then again, I'm a pretty cautious person all around anyway XD



> Retained deciduous teeth are not good things to have in their mouths still. They can cause serious problems later in life if they are left there. Usually these are pulled out during a neuter or spay procedure. How old was he when he was neutered? Or is he not neutered?


He is neutered, but he was neutered when he was about a year and a half old by the rescue I got him from and after volunteering for them for a few weeks I got the impression they try to spend as little as possible...so they probably just opted out. When I took Chip in for his exam at my vet the tooth was drawn to my attention, but they wanted me to put a little more weight on him and get him healthier before putting him under for the extraction. His next exam is in July (he was neutered July '10) and we're supposed to have a consultation for it then.  There is very obvious plaque build-up where it lays against his permanent tooth, too, so it isn't something I'm planning on ignoring...just waiting for the OK from my vet. 

I didn't realize you wrote the PMR site, though I guess if I had scrolled through the first page and not jumped on getting started I would have noticed that XD Sorry to keep quoting your own words back at you, LOL. 

I'm really glad you told me when to switch between bone-in and boneless because I was about to ask that...and everything else you said makes perfect sense and answered those questions. 

I also looked at the available products at the butcher shop a few towns over, and they do offer a lot! Bone-in pork chops, boneless pork chops, back pork ribs, spare pork ribs...as well as "leg of lamb" and "rack of lamb"! They have organs too. They're family-owned and a little pricy, but it gets me a step closer and I'm excited, LOL!

Edit: Skin or no skin on chicken? D:


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## Ania's Mommy (Feb 8, 2009)

Mokapi said:


> *@Ania's Mommy (Richelle?)*- I know you told me to not worry about the organ meat right now, and I know you're right but I'm so worried I won't understand when I do get there! I'll try my hardest to let it go for now. I do have one question about something you said, though:
> 
> "You could certainly feed ONE of those items during week one & two."
> 
> Do you mean I should only try feeding him one, or that one will last me long enough that I won't need much?  Can I try chicken necks one meal, and then a drumstick the next?


You mentioned chicken necks, duck necks, and turkey necks and asked if they could be fed in the first two weeks. What I meant was that you should pick one of those PROTEINS and stick with it the whole first two weeks. The most recommended of those three would be chicken. You can feed most any part of the chicken throughout the week, but stick with only chicken. Does that make sense?


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## grissom_mom (Sep 27, 2010)

All your questions have been answered pretty well above, but I thought I would chime in because I am feeding an 8 lb foster chi mix on raw so I thought I could give you an idea of how another person with a smaller dog does it.

My other dog already gets fed just once a day, so I stuck with that. Some people have had their dogs get hunger pukes when going 24 hrs between meals, mine never have.
I started feeding Remy (the 8 lb dog) the day I brought her home with chicken wings. Chicken backs are recommended to begin with often for bigger dogs but I found wings to be comparable for smaller dogs. I fed two of those (around .19-.25 lbs/meal, about her feeding requirement of .20 lb/day) for a week. Then I moved on to turkey necks, which were a pain to cut up but she loves digging the meat out of the vertebrae and crunching up the bones. Those made her a little constipated so I bought a package of ground turkey from the store and gave her a spoonful with each meal, probably making each meal around .24-.27 lbs but she didn't gain noticeable weight and her poop was better, so it worked out. 

After a week of these I moved on to pork necks. Once again, after eating these bone heavy RMBs for a few days her poop was TOO good so I bought a package of ground pork, and did the same thing. A spoonful of ground with a RMB for a meal about .19 - .25 lbs/day. She did great on that and loved it!

We are now in week 5 and I'm rotating between these 3 proteins while trying to obtain some fish and get my next order of heart and liver in for my other dog. 

Hope this helps, good luck!


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## Mokapi (Apr 7, 2011)

Ania's Mommy said:


> You mentioned chicken necks, duck necks, and turkey necks and asked if they could be fed in the first two weeks. What I meant was that you should pick one of those PROTEINS and stick with it the whole first two weeks. The most recommended of those three would be chicken. You can feed most any part of the chicken throughout the week, but stick with only chicken. Does that make sense?


Oh! That makes perfect sense then, thank you! 

*@Grissom_mom-* Chip is only fed once a day right now, in the evening, so I can hopefully stick to that- plus I'll probably be hovering the entire time he eats to make sure everything is going okay and compulsively taking him outside to check his poop and I don't think I could do that every morning 

Did you have to weigh out and cut up your chicken wings? I've only ever seen them fried at my grocer's rotisserie, and they always seemed pretty decently sized so I'm wondering how many Chip would need. I will definitely keep those spoonfuls of ground turkey in mind, although I'm hoping this all goes smoothly. 

Your examples for your chi mix made me feel a bit better, LOL. Chip is part chihuahua and isn't too finicky so I'm keeping my fingers crossed!


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## Ania's Mommy (Feb 8, 2009)

You could get raw frozen chicken wings from the freezer section of the grocery store in a bag. I think most all stores carry them, as they are what you'd use for buffalo wings.


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## grissom_mom (Sep 27, 2010)

I actually found fresh chicken wings at my Raleys, though of course what stores you have vary by location. You can probably find them frozen like Ania's Mommy said as well.
I did not have to cut them up, they were pretty small, and weighed less than I would have guessed. I just have a little $10 food scale from Walmart that I use to get an idea of how much the food weighs in the beginning. I don't even weigh my corgi's food, I can eyeball it, but with Remy I'd never fed such a small dog raw before so I wanted to make sure I wasn't underfeeding her!


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## magicre (Apr 7, 2010)

i think by feeding one protein at a time...it gives you a lot of information about how chip will accept that particular protein.

if you feed a bunch of different types of necks, and he has that so so so rare reaction that some dogs have, how will you know which protein gave him that reaction...

i really believe that if you cannot find chicken backs, get some cornish hens...they are very bony and i think he would do fine on them, since they are just little tiny chickens....

and then, have a glass of wine, if you drink, milk if you don't.....and breathe. dogs have been eating raw for thousands and thousands of years...believe it or not...our kibble fed spoiled rotten dogs...every single one of them....has this innate knowledge somewhere in their heads about raw food....

and, by the way, dane mama (natalie) buys 800 lbs of food at a time, for her 6 dogs who weigh 800 lbs.....rofl....just kidding...

have you SEEN her dogs? just one of them has a nose longer than chips LOL


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## tem_sat (Jun 20, 2010)

Your dog is about the same size as my doxie. There are 2 types of chicken wings, the "jumbo" and the smaller size. For my doxie, I would trim off the wing tip of the jumbo wing and feed that as one meal. They normally weigh about 115 to 125 grams each with the tip trimmed off. The small wings weigh approximately 100 grams and do not include the wing tip. That size is perfect for "combo" meals of, for example, 1 small chicken wing and about 15 grams of diced ______ (new boneless protein).

My doxie lives in a condo and does not get a ton of exercise, so you may want to feed a bit more if your dog is more active. I would suggest getting a very inexpensive food scale and start with weighing each chicken wing. Then you can get an idea of whether or not you need trim larger chicken parts, like drumsticks and thighs. Those would be too large a meal for my doxie, so, I just trim off a bit and save that for treats and try to get it down to about 110 to 120 grams.

It is soooooooo easy to feed a small dog PMR and after a few months, you will be a pro and probably won't even need to weigh meals any more.


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## Mokapi (Apr 7, 2011)

I can hopefully go scouting out cheap meat the next two days so I can make a list of what's immediately affordable and what's not. I hadn't even considered the fact that, yes, people do make their own buffalo wings 

@Grissom_mom- I do plan to get a little scale, at least for the first few months. I think I'll be nervous for a while that he's not getting enough of xyz, but as I keep re-reading the PMR site it makes more and more sense. 

@Magicre- I completely get that part about it making it difficult to see what his body accepts...and I don't drink, but maybe some hot cocoa or something :| By the way, Chip ran into a newfoundland once and that dog's head, muzzle, and neck were literally bigger than my dog...I'll attach a picture to this thing to show you 

@tem_sat- So your doxie does well with around 4 oz. (not great with unit conversions, sorry!)? I've been feeding Chip 3/4 cup of TOTW kibble every day but he is seriously packing on the weight so I'm gonna cut it down to 1/2 cup, which is about 4 oz. He isn't incredibly active, but he has zoomies a lot and then plops down and has to nap XD

Click for the picture!


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## Mokapi (Apr 7, 2011)

I'm not sure if anyone will read this because the thread went a few pages back...but I bought my first 10 lb. of chicken today and my mom helped me get the skin off the drumsticks. Most of them weighed right at 4 oz., but some were a lot closer to 5 and because of all the weight Chip is putting on I planned to only feed between 4 and 4.5 oz. per day. I do not have a mallet to mash up the bones, though, so- do I definitely need to do that? 

Here's a link to a picture of some of the drumsticks...I really didn't do much other than take off the skin and cut off some meat on the ones that weighed 5+ oz. I kept all of this meat and put it in a separate bag so that I could toss it in with the lighter drummies. Is that okay?

I kept the treats minimal today and haven't fed him his TOTW but I did let him have a few small pieces of the chicken and he LOVED it. I'm hoping I can find a mallet tonight, but I wanted to be sure that it's necessary to smash up those bones. 

Thanks if anyone does see this and reply


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## SilverBeat (Jan 16, 2011)

Mokapi said:


> I'm not sure if anyone will read this because the thread went a few pages back...but I bought my first 10 lb. of chicken today and my mom helped me get the skin off the drumsticks. Most of them weighed right at 4 oz., but some were a lot closer to 5 and because of all the weight Chip is putting on I planned to only feed between 4 and 4.5 oz. per day. I do not have a mallet to mash up the bones, though, so- do I definitely need to do that?
> 
> Here's a link to a picture of some of the drumsticks...I really didn't do much other than take off the skin and cut off some meat on the ones that weighed 5+ oz. I kept all of this meat and put it in a separate bag so that I could toss it in with the lighter drummies. Is that okay?
> 
> ...


Why do you think it is necessary to mash up the bones? That could actually be dangerous because if your dog is not a thorough chewer [mine is - thank goodness because I am a worrier] he could gulp down those chunks of bone and it could irritate his throat or worse--he could choke on it. So no, you don't need to mash up the bone, as far as I know.


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## Ania's Mommy (Feb 8, 2009)

I always navigate this forum by hitting the "What's New" button. That way, I never miss anything. Hahaha!

You don't have to smash the bone. It just seems to help smaller dogs who are just starting out with raw. I would just see how it goes. If CHip has trouble, you may think about getting something mallet-like (it doesn't have to be an actual mallet. I once used a rolling pin and whacked the crap out of some chicken wings. If you DO decide to smash, cover the meat with seran wrap. THat way you won't spray meat juice all over your kitchen. Learned that one the hard way...).

Also, I usually suggest that you DON'T remove the skin and fat. THe vast majority of dogs have little to no trouble transitioning to raw. But a few do, and removing the skin and fat definitely helps. But my general philosophy is to NOT cross a bridge unless I have to.


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## Mokapi (Apr 7, 2011)

SilverBeat said:


> Why do you think it is necessary to mash up the bones? That could actually be dangerous because if your dog is not a thorough chewer [mine is - thank goodness because I am a worrier] he could gulp down those chunks of bone and it could irritate his throat or worse--he could choke on it. So no, you don't need to mash up the bone, as far as I know.


Wow...in that case I won't be getting the mallet right now, LOL. I'm not sure why I thought I needed to mash them up...I'm going to go re-read everything and see if I can figure out why.


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## Mokapi (Apr 7, 2011)

Ania's Mommy said:


> I always navigate this forum by hitting the "What's New" button. That way, I never miss anything. Hahaha!
> 
> You don't have to smash the bone. It just seems to help smaller dogs who are just starting out with raw. I would just see how it goes. If CHip has trouble, you may think about getting something mallet-like (it doesn't have to be an actual mallet. I once used a rolling pin and whacked the crap out of some chicken wings. If you DO decide to smash, cover the meat with seran wrap. THat way you won't spray meat juice all over your kitchen. Learned that one the hard way...).
> 
> Also, I usually suggest that you DON'T remove the skin and fat. THe vast majority of dogs have little to no trouble transitioning to raw. But a few do, and removing the skin and fat definitely helps. But my general philosophy is to NOT cross a bridge unless I have to.


We did save the skin because I figured it might be useful! Should I add some back with the meat, or will that not work? It's in a plastic baggy.


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## Ania's Mommy (Feb 8, 2009)

Mokapi said:


> We did save the skin because I figured it might be useful! Should I add some back with the meat, or will that not work? It's in a plastic baggy.


I would. 

For future use (not now, since you're just starting out), when I prepare meat for my husband & I, I usually cut fat and skin off of our meat before cooking it. I ALWAYS cut it in little chunks and throw it in a container labeled "Fat for Anster Ponster" to feed as treats. :hungry: No meat is ever wasted in THIS house!


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## Mokapi (Apr 7, 2011)

Ania's Mommy said:


> I would.
> 
> For future use (not now, since you're just starting out), when I prepare meat for my husband & I, I usually cut fat and skin off of our meat before cooking it. I ALWAYS cut it in little chunks and throw it in a container labeled "Fat for Anster Ponster" to feed as treats. :hungry: No meat is ever wasted in THIS house!


...just went to go get the skin and put it in the same freezer as the drumsticks and apparently my mom didn't think I did actually want it and threw it out. It's still in a bag but it's in the big trashcan outside with the styrofoam tray the chicken came on...would you still go save it from the trash at that point? 

I don't plan on throwing out any of the meat, just because it isn't that cheap here and I'm not feeding any of the high-fat/non-organic treats once I start raw so I know that meat'll come in handy.


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## Ania's Mommy (Feb 8, 2009)

Eh, up to you. It's not going to hurt anything to NOT feed it at this time. I'd probably leave it. It's one thing to pull it out if the kitchen garbage. But once it's gone outside? It automatically gets exponentially grosser. :becky:ainkiller:


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## Mokapi (Apr 7, 2011)

Ania's Mommy said:


> Eh, up to you. It's not going to hurt anything to NOT feed it at this time. I'd probably leave it. It's one thing to pull it out if the kitchen garbage. But once it's gone outside? It automatically gets exponentially grosser. :becky:ainkiller:


You're right actually, LMAO. Chicken skin on the cutting board= not so bad; chicken skin wrapped in plastic outside = completely disgusting. I walked outside thinking about it, stopped in the doorway, and then came back in. 

Also, do you know why fasting dogs for a day beforehand is recommended on the PMR site? Is it to make sure they don't have any kibble in their system, or to make them hungrier/more willing to eat the first time? Chip has been snuffling at his food bowl for a few minutes and staring up at me with those big brown eyes and even though he hasn't eaten kibble today and just a small amount yesterday, I have given him lots of treats because we were at training class this morning. Should I just wait until tomorrow afternoon to feed him to be safe?


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## SilverBeat (Jan 16, 2011)

Mokapi said:


> Also, do you know why fasting dogs for a day beforehand is recommended on the PMR site? Is it to make sure they don't have any kibble in their system, or to make them hungrier/more willing to eat the first time? Chip has been snuffling at his food bowl for a few minutes and staring up at me with those big brown eyes and even though he hasn't eaten kibble today and just a small amount yesterday, I have given him lots of treats because we were at training class this morning. Should I just wait until tomorrow afternoon to feed him to be safe?


You should wait at least 12 hours after his last kibble to feed raw. It is to get the bulk of it out of his system.


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## Ania's Mommy (Feb 8, 2009)

Kibble takes 36 - 48 hours to get thorough the system. Raw takes about 24 hours. Fasting is recommended so that they don't "collide" and cause tummy upset. 

I would stop giving treats today. He's been good enough. :wink: I think you could still start tomorrow morning without any problem.


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## Mokapi (Apr 7, 2011)

Ahh! Awesome. I'm so excited to get start him on it, LOL. He liked the small pieces I gave him so I think he'll take to the whole drumstick with gusto


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## Mokapi (Apr 7, 2011)

*No diarrhea?!*

I've taken Chip out just about every hour since his drumstick and have followed him around, and he'd been doing a lot of peeing but no poops. I let him out a few minutes ago and after about 10 minutes of me going "POOPY?! DO YOU HAVE TO GO POOP?" (the neighbors think I'm a nutjob with crazy animals. My 7-lb. cat viciously attacked and chased their massive akita mix out of the vicinity of our yard when she was wandering around...I'm not in good standing with them.) he finally did. I rushed over, expecting him to either be extremely constipated or it to be completely nasty, but it just looked normal. YESTERDAY he had really smelly, runny diarrhea, and this is the first solid poop he's had in at least a week. It wasn't as much as normal, though, but is that something I should expect with raw, even though it's only been a couple of hours? Should I expect his poop in the morning to be really gross? I had been expecting something really bad but it was very normal so now I'm all confused. It did take him almost 9 hours to go, though. Maybe that IS constipation?


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## jdatwood (Apr 13, 2009)

If he is pooping he is NOT constipated :wink:


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## Mokapi (Apr 7, 2011)

jdatwood said:


> If he is pooping he is NOT constipated :wink:


I was just worried that he might have been since it took so long /: Usually he goes within three or four hours so I was starting to get concerned, LOL


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## Ania's Mommy (Feb 8, 2009)

Sounds like he's transitioning like a champ, which is to be expected. :thumb:

There are by far more posts on this forum of people who's dogs are NOT transitioning as well. They come here for help, and we are happy to help them. So to the casual observer, it looks like transitioning to raw is difficult and, at times, messy. The reality is that more dogs transition without a hitch, but there are much less posts about it.

Yes, less poo is normal. Remember, you fasted for about 12 hours. So I'd imagine that Chip poo'd some of the nasty kibble in his system earlier. At this point, I would say that the small poo (and lack of frequency) is more from the lack of food in the past 12 hours, rather than an illustration of one of the great benefits of raw.

I would say that tomorrow, you should have nice, small poo's as well.

Nice job mom!


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## jdatwood (Apr 13, 2009)

I wouldn't be surprised if he ends up going once a day after the adjustment period


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## Ania's Mommy (Feb 8, 2009)

jdatwood said:


> I wouldn't be surprised if he ends up going once a day after the adjustment period


True dat!eace:


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## Tobi (Mar 18, 2011)

jdatwood said:


> I wouldn't be surprised if he ends up going once a day after the adjustment period


we've gotten used to this... it took a while for me to stop panicking when he didn't poop 3 times a day :lol:

now usually every day in the afternoon, or twice on the second day.


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## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

Snorkels is pooping alot less, even though she is straining again. But before we started this, she was pooping sometimes 6-7 times per day - she has been pooping only 1 or 2 times daily in the past few days, and then in a few hours it turns white. 

I don't quite agree that if they are pooping they are not constipated. If they are struggling to get little tiny balls or small bits of poop out, and they try to do that over and over, I think that is a constipated dog even though poop is coming out.

Still working on Rebel - his poop is alot smaller, but kind of runny and not turning white. But I think we'll get it figured out.


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## Mokapi (Apr 7, 2011)

I went back outside to look at his poop in the light this morning and half of it had turned white (the other half was normal)...you guys weren't kidding. xD

Today when he had dinner, he ate less of the bone and I think he chewed it less? At one point there was a ton of blood on his teeth and tongue. I had thought he broke a tooth but I ended up deciding it was probably from the marrow...still worried. After his dinner he gnawed on a lot of sticks (like actually tried to eat them?) and kept trying to chew on grass, which he's never done before. Do you think he's going to be sick later?


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## xellil (Apr 4, 2011)

He could have bitten his tongue, or maybe a piece of bone stuck him in the gum and caused some bleeding?

If it were me, I would drop back on the bone some, maybe you are giving him too much bone. But you know - I only started this 10 days ago so I'm probably not the best one to give advice.


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## SerenityFL (Sep 28, 2010)

Since we are now talking about poop and no one in "real" life wants to hear it, I'd like to add to this:

When I first started raw, (in September), their poo came out like your dogs did...although a bit yellowish, (expect this, Ania's Mommy informed me back then it was because of all the chicken...so don't sweat that, ok?), but was much less and much smaller than on kibble.

Now, it's been 7 months and I'm gonna tell you, you will still learn about poop as you go.

Couple pointers from things I've learned, (some the hard way....not so much for me as the dog): Once the pooch has been on raw for awhile, remember that their jaw muscles get much stronger so that bone you may have laid down for them to gnaw on throughout the day may not last throughout the day. It might only last a few minutes. And then? The next day? You will get to hear all about it when they poop out some bone. 

OH, and that reminds me, in the beginning, when you are transitioning and they are getting bone, you may see some bone shards in the poo. Do not be alarmed. Eventually, if you keep the bone amount to about 10%, once they have transitioned, you shouldn't really see that anymore or much, anymore.

Also, as others have said, after transition, you may find they poop less. Now, let me tell you something about that statement. It can be a bit confusing. The reason is, sometimes "less" means, they go just as many times as they did before but it's little nuggets. 

What have I learned? Recently, in the last couple of days, they are, after 7 months, NOT going three times a day. They are now going about one time a day. And while I didn't panic, (I've learned that raw has opened the door to all kinds of wonders that usually don't need to be worried about), I still started to wonder.

For example: They both pooed yesterday when I let them out after work. Thus far, they have not pooped again. Now, I know for a fact it's not because they are constipated or had too much bone because yesterday and today their meals were entirely meat. They had pork, some liver and a teensy amount of pork skin. It's just that they are really using everything so efficiently. 

It is sometimes hard to remember that and poor little hoodlums have had me on them, (not mean), saying, "hurry up!!" over and over for an entire day. They pee. I congratulate them. I take them to where they poo. They decide to frolick around, instead. I put them on leash and take them to their usual spots and they sniff and sniff and sniff and then stop and look up at me. I think, "Why is this little princess dog SO STUBBORN!?" (Because potty training took longer with her and sometimes she still likes to get distracted at whatever...a person, another dog, a bug, the wind changed direction...) and sometimes, she'll just try to pee again but not poo. And it finally dawns on me, she just doesn't have to do that. 

The boy, he is always very good about going when he needs to go, not picky in the slightest about the spot, location, texture, is it wet is it not wet, are these blades of grass all mown perfectly even because if not, this is not perfect enough, (princess dog does this), he just goes when I say, "Hurry up!" So if he isn't going poo when I say to hurry up, he doesn't need to. 

So be prepared for that.

Also, when you get a scale, (if you haven't already), get a good one. Spend a little extra money because "a scale is a scale is a scale" is not true. I had a scale, some cheap-o one and I used it, diligently, every day. I noticed that the cats were getting little bellies and the hoodlums were a bit...thicker than they should be. I've not been too hard core on cutting back for them because they are puppies and I'd rather not underfeed a puppy. But, they are now approaching 1 year of age. 

So today I got a new scale, a better scale. I came home and got their food out and started cutting. I was getting good at figuring out how much 8 ounces was according to my old scale so I cut that up and put it in the new scale. HA! My old scale was overfeeding the animals by about 3-4 ounces. No wonder everyone here is getting fat. 

Therefore, I expect to see even less poo in the coming future. And not only will it be a less amount, it will be less often. Get a good scale. Trust me.

Oh and grazing? The hoodlums do that quite often. Mainly because a lot of the grass in this area is very high so it's a bit of eating it and a bit of playing in it. But grazing on grass is natural. It's like us grazing on sunflower seeds or peanuts....don't need it but hey, it's there, that's fun, let's eat it.


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## Mokapi (Apr 7, 2011)

That was INCREDIBLY helpful. Thank you! I do have a clearance-priced Paula Deen scale that I'm using right now, and all of my drummies are weighing between 4 and 5 oz...does that sound right to you, or do you think I'm over/underfeeding him?


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